# Top Five in Taijutsu



## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

List your top five most skilled taijutsu practitioners. 


Gai
B
A
Lee or Neji
Lee or Neji

Left out Part 3 Characters because I wasn't sure what to do with them.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 9, 2016)

1 - Gai
2 - A
3 - B
4 - Lee
5 - Neji


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## Alex Payne (Feb 9, 2016)

What do you mean by "skilled"?


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## Jad (Feb 9, 2016)

1. Adult Lee (Better than Gai, I know that's Part 3) / Gai 
2. Lee (during 'the Last' is stated to be best Taijutsu fighter, and during War arc stated to be Taijutsu master)
......

Last 3 spots it's a pick between A, B, Neji and Tsunade. Probably in that order. A because he actually has more than one Taijutsu move, Bee because he showed better Lariat than A. Neji because he is the best Hyuuga fighter. Tsunade because of the 5 in Taijutsu.

Honorable mentions: Itachi, Kakashi, Madara, Hashirama, Kimimaro


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## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> What do you mean by "skilled"?





Proficiency. Competency. The like.

Kenjutsu is included, by the way. That's why I've got B above A.


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## Jad (Feb 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Proficiency. Competency. The like.
> 
> Kenjutsu is included, by the way. That's why I've got B above A.



The way Killer Bee is able to hold his blades must have taken ages to correct. But 90% of his style is spinning in a circle or on one occasion spinning forward in a crouched position. Thus allowing him to become a human porcupine. This many blades coming out his body and spinning around allows him to attack and defend at the same time. Each sword probably covers a section of his body,  top down, when spinning.

But that's 90% of his moveset. Spinning like a table top. His last move is probably the best part. The viper like strike of trying to shove as many swords into a persons body. Executed after the spinning or as a stand alone attack. This is why Itachi and Sasuke were clanging with Bee's blades so much. To me A has better Taijutsu than a move primarily made up of spinning in a circle rapidly. Because you can exploit Bee's spinning technique with brute strength, either clashing with his blade roughly, thus flinging his blade off him, or destroying the ground. I say clash with him roughly because Itachi and Sasuke with their average strength had no problem clashing with Bee's blades. Which is why I conclude Bee's technique doesn't take advantage of his strength


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## Sorin (Feb 9, 2016)

Do you include modes, gates, kenjutsu and the likes? Because Kisame totally dominated base Gai in CQC despite having 4.5 in tai, 4 in speed and 5 in strength to Gai's 5 in every category. I'd argue that with his Samehada reach plus strength he is above base Gai despite the later being more skilful. Gates is no question however.

If we include modes, i think Naruto should be included somewhere. He did learn frog katas and has ghost punches and top tier sensing helping with the blindside kicks and punches and plenty of resilience too. Not Jesus Naruto, the one before that.

I'd argue SM Naruto is above Neji. Btw wasn't Hiashi above Neji too? Cuz' I don't remember much from the war and I vaguely recall him doing some impressive shit against Juubi.


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## Jad (Feb 9, 2016)

Sorin said:


> Do you include modes, gates, kenjutsu and the likes? Because Kisame totally dominated base Gai in CQC despite having 4.5 in tai, 4 in speed and 5 in strength to Gai's 5 in every category.
> 
> If we include modes, i think Naruto should be included somewhere. He did learn frog katas and has ghost punches and top tier sensing helping with the blindside kicks and punches and plenty of resilience too.
> 
> I'd argue SM Naruto is above Neji. Btw wasn't Hiashi above Neji too? Cuz' I don't remember much from the war and I vaguely recall him doing some impressive shit against Juubi.




Kisame didn't dominate Gai. Come on guys. This is what happens when people forget. Gai successfully blocked Kisame's attack. And there are many reasons why that happened because the part before it was cut out, off paneled. Kisame could have used ninjutsu to corner Gai to block. It's not like he didn't open with Ninjutsu, use Ninjutsu during the fight and after he punched Gai in the water. Gai could have blocked Kisame to overpower him instead. Perhaps Gai blocked on purpose to again, steal Samehada with knowledge of it being a magical blade.

Whatever the reason, Gai did nothing wrong when it comes to Taijutsu basics. Did we forget how Gai is the only person I know of on panel stealing a weapon from an experienced weapons expert? Anyways a year after Gai was avoiding Obito touching him entirely even though KCM Naruto nearly got snagged a few times in close quarters.


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## Saru (Feb 9, 2016)

Gai
Lee
Kimimaro
A / Tsunade


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## Nikushimi (Feb 9, 2016)

Are we talking pure skill or taking into account their physical capabilities like strength, speed, etc.?


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## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

The body techniques they are capable of using, regardless of the speed & strength they use them at. They only exception is if a certain level of speed or strength is _required_ to even use a certain technique, like in the case of Night Gai. 



Saru said:


> Gai
> Lee
> *Kimimaro
> A / Tsunade*


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## Sorin (Feb 9, 2016)

Jad said:


> Kisame didn't dominate Gai. Come on guys. This is what happens when people forget. Gai successfully blocked Kisame's attack. And there are many reasons why that happened because the part before it was cut out, off paneled. Kisame could have used ninjutsu to corner Gai to block. It's not like he didn't open with Ninjutsu, use Ninjutsu during the fight and after he punched Gai in the water. Gai could have blocked Kisame to overpower him instead. Perhaps Gai blocked on purpose to again, steal Samehada with knowledge of it being a magical blade.
> 
> Whatever the reason, Gai did nothing wrong when it comes to Taijutsu basics. Did we forget how Gai is the only person I know of on panel stealing a weapon from an experienced weapons expert? Anyways a year after Gai was avoiding Obito touching him entirely even though KCM Naruto nearly got snagged a few times in close quarters.



Ok, may it be as you say but what would base Gai do to Kisame exactly? With all the taijutsu skill in the world, he can't do much to Kisame. He'll get in some punches which will amount to nothing until Kisame overpowers him as he is more powerful and has a better weapon. 

Do you really think Gai is superior to Kisame in CQC when in base?

I'm not even sure why you're so offended. Kisame is a straight up beast in taijutsu. He has almost all the attributes to be one. Strenght, durability, good reaction and evasion speed, a weapon that acts on his own, can extend and is covered in sharp scales for maximum damage.


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## Saru (Feb 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


>




well you said skill, Rocky.

Kimimaro's style of taijutsu is more artful and requires more skill than Liger Bomb, drop kicking, Heaven Kick of Pain, etc. those are moreso shows of overwhelming power, speed, or strength. i mean Kimimaro's whole Kekkei Genkai is based around taijutsu, and it received a lot of hype in the manga.


*Spoiler*: __ 
















so yes, in terms of skill, i would definitely rate Kimi above the likes of A and Tsunade. _they may be stronger and faster_, but they certainly haven't impressed me with their _taijutsu skill_ the way Kimimaro has.


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## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

Kimimaro had trouble keeping pace with Preskip Lee's Drunken Fist. Lariat alone is two grades above that in acquisition difficulty. Lariat, Double Lariat, Liger Bomb...they all require more skill than anything we've seen from Kimimaro.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Lariat alone is two grades above that in acquisition difficulty.


Academy B performed Lariat. Alongside other kids.


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## Saru (Feb 9, 2016)

not really... you're telling me picking someone up who's lighter than you requires more skill than taijutsu used with Shikotsumyaku?

and that same Lee knocked Gai out, so...

perhaps it's unfair of me to consider Kimimaro's kekkei genaki without taking into consideration the use of CES in Tsunade or RCM in A. but again, those abilities sort of overshadow the skill involved in the actual art of taijutsu IMO. at that point you're talking more about who is the stronger or faster, or who is the more effective at achieving an end goal.


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## wooly Eullerex (Feb 9, 2016)

gai
bee
hiashi
kimi
hidan


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 9, 2016)

No one mentions him but Hidan's usage of scythe was pretty impressive too.


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## Santoryu (Feb 9, 2016)

It was a decent, but not one of the best feats in the series considering an injured Kakashi held him off with a kunai.


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## Veracity (Feb 9, 2016)

Whoever put Neji on the list is blatantly biased 

1. Gai(5)
2. Lee(5)
3. Tsuande(5), Hiashi(5)
4. Bee, Ay, Kimmi(5)
5. Hiruzen(5)


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## LostSelf (Feb 9, 2016)

Sorin said:


> Ok, may it be as you say but what would base Gai do to Kisame exactly? With all the taijutsu skill in the world, he can't do much to Kisame. He'll get in some punches which will amount to nothing until Kisame overpowers him as he is more powerful and has a better weapon.
> 
> Do you really think Gai is superior to Kisame in CQC when in base?
> 
> I'm not even sure why you're so offended. Kisame is a straight up beast in taijutsu. He has almost all the attributes to be one. Strenght, durability, good reaction and evasion speed, a weapon that acts on his own, can extend and is covered in sharp scales for maximum damage.



Yes. Gai dissarmed Kisame like a newbie. 

After that, the sword went to his side, Gai blocked, not knowing the huge difference in strenght, Kisame capitalized on that and hit him.

After that, it was all ninjutsu.

Before that, Kisame got a lucky shot. And had a better blade that saved his ass. If it was a normal blade Gai would've probably cut him down like he attempted.


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## Bonly (Feb 9, 2016)

Kimi
Neji
Tsunade
A
Gai


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## Alex Payne (Feb 9, 2016)

Gai - Gai

B - excellent taijutsu+best kenjutsu

Tsunade - created a style to accommodate her chakra punches, special evasion training for medics

SM Naruto - taijutsu with simultaneous natural energy manipulation should require immense skill

Hiashi - Hyuga's best as far as we know


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## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Whoever put Neji on the list is blatantly biased
> 
> 1. Gai(5)
> 2. Lee(5)
> ...



Not at all because by War Arc he was on par with his Uncle, and mentioned in the databook to have already surpassed all other hyuuga in his clan. Also funny how Neji was promoted to Jounin over Lee right?

lmao at Hiruzen > Neji in pure Taijutsu


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## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> not really... you're telling me picking someone up who's lighter than you requires more skill than taijutsu used with Shikotsumyaku?



Shikotsumyaku is his kekkei genkai ninjutsu. I think you mean Tsubaki no Mai, which would be the bone-sword kenjutsu that he used against Lee. Speaking of Lee, Lee taught Kimiamro a lesson with his chūnin-level (C-Rank) Suiken. _Barehanded_. 

[YOUTUBE]9WLMBdARxB8[/YOUTUBE]

You can't attribute it to physical stats either; Kimimaro and Lee are comparable in speed (4.5 vs. 4.0) and strength (3.0 vs. 3.5). Lee was straight out of surgery too. So I'm going to go ahead and conclude that the Raikage, with his multiple jōnin & kage level body techniques, has demonstrated more skill than Kimimaro has.



Saru said:


> Those abilities sort of overshadow the skill involved in the actual art of taijutsu IMO.



A's power bomb apparently takes more skill & artistry to pull off than those fancy drunken maneuvers in that video up there, so you may need to redefine what you consider the actual "art of taijutsu" to be. 



Likes boss said:


> Whoever put Neji on the list is blatantly biased
> 
> 1. Gai(5)
> 2. Lee(5)
> ...



I had forgotten about Hiashi. Kimimaro & Tsunade shouldn't be anywhere near A or B, though.


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## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> SM Naruto - taijutsu with simultaneous natural energy manipulation should require immense skill



Frog Kata is C-Rank as well. So it requires skill normally found among chūnin.


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## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> List your top five most skilled taijutsu practitioners.
> 
> 
> Gai
> ...



Does Kenjutsu count like in the databook?

If not then

Gai
Hiashi/ Neji
Ei/Sandaime Ei
Kimmimaro/Lee
Tsunade/Sakura/Sage Nardo (very similar styles IMO)

If we are counting kenjutsu
- Gai
- EMS Sauce (ninkenjutsu)
- Hiashi/Neji
- Bee
- Ei/Sandaime


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## Alex Payne (Feb 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Frog Kata is C-Rank as well. So it requires skill normally found among chūnin.


Hiraishin Giri is B-rank. While Hiraishin itself is S. Ranks became bullshit the moment DB4 tried to handle crazy power inflation. Alternatively Frog Katas are C-Rank for people who mastered Sage Mode. Which is extremely difficult to do. So for an already very skilled dude needing to apply moderate amount of skill = much skill


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## Sorin (Feb 9, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Yes. Gai dissarmed Kisame like a newbie.
> 
> After that, the sword went to his side, Gai blocked, not knowing the huge difference in strenght, Kisame capitalized on that and hit him.
> 
> ...



First of all, one of my points in my post was that the sword will act on his own and will always side with Kisame. Fact is, samehada is not going to get separated from Kisame for more than a few moments. Another sword is not going to come back. That sword is part of Kisame's power in taijutsu and other things.

Why are you arguing about another sword? Kisame *wields samehada* not another no name sword. That gives him some advantages in CQC. Advantages such as reach,scales that shave like a friend and the fact that he can't be separated from it for too much time. It is not a normal blade and it only obeys Kisame(at least in a confrontation with Gai). 

It's like me saying that Gai w/o nunchaks would be low diffed by Obito. What's the point in that when Gai has access to them and they're part of his arsenal, just like samehada for Kisame.

Overall i'm not saying that Kisame is better in taijutsu as Gai has gates which amplify speed, power,reactions etc. Gai in base has superior speed and skill but the durability of Kisame trumps those 2 attributes. While Kisame can hurt Gai, i don't think the opposite is true. 

Is it such an outrageous opinion to have?


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## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

You know, I actually think Hinata might be the best of the Hyūga.


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## Sorin (Feb 9, 2016)

No, that's Himawari.


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## Saru (Feb 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Shikotsumyaku is his kekkei genkai ninjutsu. I think you mean Tsubaki no Mai, which would be the bone-sword kenjutsu that he used against Lee. Speaking of Lee, Lee taught Kimiamro a lesson with his chūnin-level (C-Rank) Suiken. _Barehanded_.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]9WLMBdARxB8[/YOUTUBE]




i was referring to his kekkei genkai generally. i wasn't aware that Shikotsumyaku was classified as ninjutsu. if that's the case, i guess i would have to remove him from the list based on a technicality. like i said, Lee knocked Gai out too, and the unpredictability of Lee's offense was emphasized.




> You can't attribute it to physical stats either; Kimimaro and Lee are comparable in speed (4.5 vs. 4.0) and strength (3.0 vs. 3.5). Lee was straight out of surgery too. So I'm going to go ahead and conclude that the Raikage, with his multiple jōnin & kage level body techniques, has demonstrated more skill than Kimimaro has.




feel free to do so.




> A's power bomb apparently takes more skill & artistry to pull off than those fancy drunken maneuvers in that video up there, so you may need to redefine what you consider the actual "art of taijutsu" to be.




lol. the Drunken Fist was in part a _joke_. this is when Naruto could still beat people with farts. do note that Kimimaro actually did beat Lee rather easily once he used his "unpredictable" kekkei genkai. you can try to twist things and make it seem like Kimi got schooled, but the fact is that once he used Shikotsumyaku to a greater extent he put Lee in a bad spot.


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## Veracity (Feb 9, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Not at all because by War Arc he was on par with his Uncle, and mentioned in the databook to have already surpassed all other hyuuga in his clan. Also funny how Neji was promoted to Jounin over Lee right?
> 
> lmao at Hiruzen > Neji in pure Taijutsu



Lol I forgot how early the DB stopped. And everything else you said has little to do with pure taijutsu skill. Kakashi was about to appointed Hokage over Gai, guess he had more taijutsu skill than him since you 100% correlate the two.

@Rocky.

No . No. No. No. I'm not giving Ay taijutsu skill over Tsuande just because he's fast. Ay is not the best at everything. Though if you mean outright efficiency, then I'd place them on par.

Though if you factor in Kyyubi cloaks and kenjustu, then I place Bee above them both.


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## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Hiraishin Giri is B-rank. While Hiraishin itself is S.



Hiraishingiri assumes one can already use Hiraishin.



Alex Payne said:


> Frog Katas are C-Rank for people who mastered Sage Mode. Which is extremely difficult to do.



Yeah, for reasons outside of taijutsu. Naruto, somebody with no real natural aptitude for taijutsu, picked Frog Kata up in like a day. And yet, you think it takes more competency in the art of taijutsu to perform than Hakke Rokujūyon Shō or Lariat?


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## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> I'm not giving Ay taijutsu skill over Tsuande just because he's fast



I placed him over Tsunade because he's used way more advanced taijutsu than she has. She's demonstrated like two chūnin-level techniques, Tsūtenkyaku & Ōkashō....


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## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Lol I forgot how early the DB stopped. And everything else you said has little to do with pure taijutsu skill. Kakashi was about to appointed Hokage over Gai, guess he had more taijutsu skill than him since you 100% correlate the two.



DB stopping has little to do with it. He learned Jonin level techniques as a young child and mastered 64 palms (which Hinata didn't get grasp of until war arc)/Kaiten *with 0% training*. Kishi literally went out of his way to highlight War Neji being on par with his uncle if not outright equal. It's nuts to list hiashi at spot 2, and then turn around and try to scoff at people for listing Neji as if he was some Hinata type fighter.

As for your second rebuttal, not really. Both Lee, and Neji were taijutsu based fighters. Lee's overall combat effectivness was not enough for them to put him up to Jonin depsite gates, while Neji (who albeit has Bya for tracking, and can perform other jutsu) was the only Kn11 to make Jonin. If it was just about Neji's auxillary skills like byakugan then Neji would have gotten special Jonin, but no Kishi clearly was making a statement.

Hirzuen being > Neji is flat out unevidenced, and only supported by DB stat. In face of feats DB takes backseat all day.


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## Saru (Feb 9, 2016)

shit i can probably do Lariat, Rocky. doesn't seem all that complicated. drop kick looks more technical than a Lariat.

i think it's actually kind of sad that the Hyuga aren't at the top of the list for anyone. because the way Part 1 was set up, the Hyuga's best should've capable of outdoing A or Tsunade in pure taijutsu by the end of the series. but alas, Part 2.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 9, 2016)

Shikotsumyaku is a Taijutsu-type Kekkei Genkai.

Part 1 Lee used B Rank techniques when he scored a 3.5 in Taijutsu, so that doesn't mean much of anything for Raikage when Kimimaro scores 1.5 tiers higher than that.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Hiraishingiri assumes one can already use Hiraishin.


...Which is exactly my point. Frog Katas assumes that user has mastered Sage Mode. 



Rocky said:


> Yeah, for reasons outside of taijutsu. Naruto, somebody with no real natural aptitude for taijutsu, picked Frog Kata up in like a day. And yet, you think it takes more competency in the art of taijutsu to perform than Hakke Rokujūyon Shō or Lariat?


>>Natural aptitude for taijutsu
>>Art of taijutsu needed for Lariat

Are you shitting me? You really _honestly_ believe that learning Lariat takes more effort and skill than learning _Frog Katas_. With all that natural energy manipulation?

Lol @ Naruto not showing taijutsu aptitude. He had no teacher in the field and was making up solid moves on the go in Part 1(Naruto Rendan). The moment he was actually trained in the art by taijutsu expert with a distinct style he mastered it quickly.


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## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Shikotsumyaku is indeed a Taijutsu. It uses chakra to amp something and is a kekkai genkai so it's listed as ninjutsu, but it's operationalized via Taijutsu. It's like how Hirashin is listed as a ninjutsu, yet operationalized via Fuinjutsu.

the use of the Jutsu is a classification differing from it's operation or components.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 9, 2016)

Maybe that's why Kakashi was so impressed with Sakura's control over a C-Rank technique.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 9, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Shikotsumyaku is indeed a Taijutsu. It uses chakra to amp something and is a kekkai genkai so it's listed as ninjutsu, but it's operationalized via Taijutsu. It's like how Hirashin is listed as a ninjutsu, yet operationalized via Fuinjutsu.
> 
> the use of the Jutsu is a classification differing from it's operation or components.



Several of the dances are listed _as Taijutsu_.


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## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> shit i can probably do Lariat, Rocky. doesn't seem all that complicated. drop kick looks more technical than a Lariat.
> 
> i think it's actually kind of sad that the Hyuga aren't at the top of the list for anyone. because the way Part 1 was set up, the Hyuga's best should've capable of outdoing A or Tsunade in pure taijutsu by the end of the series. but alas, Part 2.



I'm of the belief that Hiashi can beat V1 Ei. He would also dust on Pt. 1 Tsunade with Sozo as well Imo.


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## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

Er, Lariat has an A for a rank. It's a taijutsu. Why exactly did you think it was so simple to learn?


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## FlamingRain (Feb 9, 2016)

Lee knew an A Rank Taijutsu when he got a worse score than Kimimaro as well.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 9, 2016)

Lariat is hard

Meanwhile at Kumo Academy


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## Itachі (Feb 9, 2016)

1. Lee
2. Gai
3. Neji
4. Kimimaro
5. Killer Bee


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## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Part 1 Kabuto had an A Ranked Genjutsu, yet is not a better genjutsu user than Tayuya or Kurenai who plateaud with B Rank genjutsu.


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## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Shikotsumyaku is a Taijutsu-type Kekkei Genkai.
> 
> Part 1 Lee used B Rank techniques when he scored a 3.5 in Taijutsu, so that doesn't mean much of anything for Raikage when Kimimaro scores 1.5 tiers higher than that.



Shikotsumyaku itself is ninjutsu. Kimimaro sometimes uses it to enhance his taijutsu, though. As for Lee, Konoha Senpū & Reppū are D-Rank. Gōken is unranked. Everything else he used are only accessible to him in gates, which aren't factored into his Databook statistics. I mean, you think Part I Kabuto = 5th Gate Lee in taijutsu? 



FlamingRain said:


> Maybe that's why Kakashi was so impressed with Sakura's control over a C-Rank technique.



It was Sakura. It was impressive chakra control...for _her._ In the grand scheme of things, it was not impressive.



Dr. White said:


> I'm of the belief that Hiashi can beat V1 Ei.


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## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Lariat is hard
> 
> Meanwhile at Kumo Academy



There is a reason that B, a prodigy, was the only one who could successfully perform the Double Lariat.


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## Saru (Feb 9, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> I'm of the belief that Hiashi can beat V1 Ei. He would also dust on Pt. 1 Tsunade with Sozo as well Imo.




really? i never thought that Hiashi's strength was rated that highly. i can barely recall any instance in which Hiashi's combat skill was praised or feared (aside from the War Arc). if A were brought back as an Edo Tensei, i think people would be much more afraid of him than they were of Hiashi. A would logically have more stamina than Hiashi too. although i think Hiashi having more impressive taijutsu skills than A would be a definite possibility.


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## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


>



V1 Ei is not blitzing Hiashi who can easily be scaled to Hebi physicality/reactions 3 tomoe Sasuke. Ei can't blindside him because of 360 vision and Fullbody blow, Ei can't break through Kaiten (which can be used from an inch away from his body), and has no ranged option like Juubi Tail slapping Air Vacuum. Also Hiashi can tag Ei once he gets inside of his Hakke (super reactions and speed for hyuuga users).


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## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2016)

Gai by a long gap 

Killer bee 

Hiashi

Tsunade 

Lee 

A isn't skilled in taijutsu I feel


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## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> really? i never thought that Hiashi's strength was rated that highly. i can barely recall any instance in which Hiashi's combat skill was praised or feared (aside from the War Arc). if A were brought back as an Edo Tensei, i think people would be much more afraid of him than they were of Hiashi. A would logically have more stamina than Hiashi too. although i think Hiashi having more impressive taijutsu skills than A would be a definite possibility.



Hiashi wasn't brought back as a edo

Hizashi was and he has no feats . Hiashi neji uncle has the juubi slapping feat 

Far more than A achievement


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 9, 2016)

Santoryu said:


> It was a decent, but not one of the best feats in the series considering an injured Kakashi held him off with a kunai.



They just clashed briefly.

If that is the case I can say that B isn't impressive because Itachi "held him off" with a kunai.


Hidan was outdoing Asuma without breaking much sweat while at the same time he was avoiding Shikamaru's kage mane.


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## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> V1 Ei is not blitzing Hiashi who can easily be scaled to Hebi physicality/reactions 3 tomoe Sasuke.



 



Dr. White said:


> Ei can't break through Kaiten



 



Dr. White said:


> Also Hiashi can tag Ei once he gets inside of his Hakke (super reactions and speed for hyuuga users



 

Raikage blows Hiashi's chest open with Lariat, no difficulty. If you would like to make that thread, go ahead. Make sure to include a poll.


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## Itachі (Feb 9, 2016)

How does Ei break through Kaiten?


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## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Raikage blows Hiashi's chest open with Lariat, no difficulty. If you would like to make that thread, go ahead. Make sure to include a poll.



Maybe later, but for now I'm content with your lack of rebuttals.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 9, 2016)

Itachі said:


> How does Ei break through Kaiten?



By putting his hand through it and breaking the jaw of whoever is rotating.


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## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2016)

Let me be the first to say chouji and kiba taijutsu to me ranks higher than A style


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## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> By putting his hand through it and breaking the jaw of whoever is rotating.



Kaiten can slap juubi hand away . A gets slapped away by base bee lariat 

I doubt base bee lariat >> juubi tail


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Let me be the first to say chouji and kiba taijutsu to me ranks higher than A style



Then let me be the first one to say that you don't know shit about taijutsu.



Icegaze said:


> Kaiten can slap juubi hand away . A gets slapped away by base bee lariat
> 
> I doubt base bee lariat >> juubi tail



Kn0 Naruto punched through it.

And neji and Naruto were roughly the same level.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 9, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> By putting his hand through it and breaking the jaw of whoever is rotating.



How does his arm get through it in the first place? I don't remember it having any vulnerabilities like that.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 9, 2016)

Itachі said:


> How does his arm get through it in the first place?..



By overpowering it.

Do you think A will just bounce off of it if he rams his fist into the kaiten after a V2 shunshin ?


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Shikotsumyaku itself is ninjutsu.



No it isn't. It is a   .



> As for Lee, Konoha Senpū & Reppū are D-Rank. Gōken is unranked.



Those are Gōken techniques, as are his gated moves, in the same way that Neji's Jutsu are all Jyūken techniques. The statistics gates are not factored into are strength and speed, because their use would be categorized as Taijutsu. For another example, look to Sakura's tier 3 strength statistic, which every other member of team 7 scores higher than. It's because there's another category it goes in, Ninjutsu.



> You think Part I Kabuto = 5th Gate Lee in taijutsu?



In regards to proficiency it seems so.

Consider what goes into .

_"One anticipates the spot the enemy will attack"
"accurately predicting the attack or instantly gauging the situation"
"Restoration in anticipation of the attack"
"His opponent's facial expression and movements, the technique's speed and power... He analyzes everything in an instant and accurately deduces where the attack will land"_



> It was Sakura. It was impressive chakra control...for _her._ In the grand scheme of things, it was not impressive.



Then it wouldn't have meant diddly in comparison to the freaking living legend that was the reigning Hokage, but that's not what's implied by Kakashi's _"...is no small feat. It takes an incredible amount of control." "if this display of skill is any indication..."
_


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> By putting his hand through it and breaking the jaw of whoever is rotating.



ribcage would have have gotten shat on by Juubi Tail, let alone be powerful enough to send it back flying. It's hilarious you think his V2 chop would work let alone a V1 chop. V2 chop could probably


----------



## Saru (Feb 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Hiashi wasn't brought back as a edo
> 
> Hizashi was and he has no feats . Hiashi neji uncle has the juubi slapping feat
> 
> Far more than A achievement




nyaruhodo 

even so, I can't really see Hiashi beating A. i don't think A would charge right through Kaiten, but i do think that he would eventually be able to wear Hiashi out and win. A clearly has stamina that is vastly superior, and logically, the benefit of 360 degrees of vision would not be enough to overcome  (and not merely contend with) the obvious gap in speed. i'm just picturing Hiashi spinning in circles _for his life_ with a few Hakke Kūshō sprinkled into his movements. it wouldn't be enough to defeat A.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 9, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> DB stopping has little to do with it. He learned Jonin level techniques as a young child and mastered 64 palms (which Hinata didn't get grasp of until war arc)/Kaiten *with 0% training*. Kishi literally went out of his way to highlight War Neji being on par with his uncle if not outright equal. It's nuts to list hiashi at spot 2, and then turn around and try to scoff at people for listing Neji as if he was some Hinata type fighter.
> 
> As for your second rebuttal, not really. Both Lee, and Neji were taijutsu based fighters. Lee's overall combat effectivness was not enough for them to put him up to Jonin depsite gates, while Neji (who albeit has Bya for tracking, and can perform other jutsu) was the only Kn11 to make Jonin. If it was just about Neji's auxillary skills like byakugan then Neji would have gotten special Jonin, but no Kishi clearly was making a statement.
> 
> Hirzuen being > Neji is flat out unevidenced, and only supported by DB stat. In face of feats DB takes backseat all day.


Yeah no. Other than the speed stat, I take the DB serious as it comes from kishi himself. I feel like if kishi wanted to hype Neji up, he would have simply given him a 5 in taijutsu by the at least the 3rd Db. We can agree to disagree here, but thats what I believe.

☻Except being someone's apparent equal doesn't 100% translate to being their equal in taijustu skill. I don't know why you keep equating the two. 

Except Neji has multiple nature types, the ability to use ninjustu and is much more intelligent with better perception. That's why he became a Jounin over Lee. Gai is offensively on a level above Kakashi, yet Kakashi was appointed Hokage over him. Becoming a jounin isn't simply a factor of raw strength.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 9, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Other than the speed stat



Why is that?


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Yeah no. Other than the speed stat, I take the DB serious as it comes from kishi himself. I feel like if kishi wanted to hype Neji up, he would have simply given him a 5 in taijutsu by the at least the 3rd Db. We can agree to disagree here, but thats what I believe.


The databook has been proen wrong multiple times over the course of the manga and you already special plead for speed so....

On panels feats/hype/portrayal take precedent.



> ☻Except being someone's apparent equal doesn't 100% translate to being their equal in taijustu skill. I don't know why you keep equating the two.


Neji has no elemental feats, and I already stated had he only stood out from Lee in secondary skills he'd be a special Jonin like Raido, Anko, etc.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> No it isn't. It is a   .





If it is not taijutsu, and it is not genjutsu, it defaults to ninjutsu. The dances you listed are taijutsu, but the ability itself, along with the other two dances, are seemingly ninjutsu.



FlamingRain said:


> The statistics gates are not factored into are strength and speed, because their use would be categorized as Taijutsu.



Opening those five gates is not a taijutsu. It's not even a jutsu. The techniques Lee uses while in that form are taijutsu, but they wouldn't be counted in the Databook for the same reasons that the speed & strength only accessible to him in that form isn't counted in his speed & strength scores. 



FlamingRain said:


> Then it wouldn't have meant diddly in comparison to the freaking living legend that was the reigning Hokage, but that's not what's implied by Kakashi's _"...is no small feat. It takes an incredible amount of control." "if this display of skill is any indication..."
> _



It _didn't_ mean diddly. Kakashi saw potential in Sakura, but she was still a chūnin using a chūnin-level ability. She couldn't even lick the bottom of Tsunade's feet at the time.

Sakura

Shōsen (A-Rank)
Ōkashō (C-Rank)

Tsunade

Byakugō no In (S-Rank)
Infūin: Kai (S-Rank)
Ninpō Sōzō Saisei — Byakugō no Jutsu (S-Rank)
Sōzō Saisei (S-Rank)

Oh, and Tsunade could use Sakura's abilities too. Just better. Way better because of her larger chakra reserves and naturally freakish strength. Sakura _wasn't even close._ What are you contesting here anyway? That Ōkashō isn't C-Rank?


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Then let me be the first one to say that you don't know shit about taijutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



kaiten wasn't even complete. Neji didn't have time to actually turn

lol love the fandom wooden goggles 

without speed A style is horribly dry

he also cant do things like stomp GM in its tracks or slap away juubi tail

the only large enemy he fought he got slapped around

allow me to say u were wooden goggles

without A speed his style would be the least effective, that's a fact


----------



## Itachі (Feb 9, 2016)

^ Wasn't he able to fight the Hachibi, albeit with support. That's pretty damn good.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> nyaruhodo
> 
> even so, I can't really see Hiashi beating A. i don't think A would charge right through Kaiten, but i do think that he would eventually be able to wear Hiashi out and win. A clearly has stamina that is vastly superior, and logically, the benefit of 360 degrees of vision would not be enough to overcome  (and not merely contend with) the obvious gap in speed. i'm just picturing Hiashi spinning in circles _for his life_ with a few Hakke Kūshō sprinkled into his movements. it wouldn't be enough to defeat A.



A taijutsu style has nothing on hiashi

A got more stamina and more speed. u take those 2 away. hiashi low diff's him


A style is linear and even in power its below tsunade, and chouji

A only got speed going for him. and even in that department gates has been more impressive

A style got nothing to show for it

bee can virtually do all A can do with more power and he even has his own 7 sword style.


*Taijutsu criteria*

*Speed *:gates

*power(offensive) :* gates or tsunade (depends on the poster)

*range:* gates, jukken style, chouji

*unpredictability *: gouken, 7 sword style, kimimaro bone style

*defensive : *jukken

*reactions: *byakugan(360 degrees and all)

where is A style the best again?


----------



## Saru (Feb 9, 2016)

Rocky said:
			
		

> She couldn't even lick the bottom of Tsunade's feet at the time.




Sakura was building up Byakugō no In over the timeskip, so what are you talking about? She clearly had the capability to learn and use high-rank jutsu.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 9, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> ribcage would have have gotten shat on by Juubi Tail, let alone be powerful enough to send it back flying. It's hilarious you think his V2 chop would work let alone a V1 chop. V2 chop could probably



A shat on Sasuke's ribcage too, and he did that after fully stopping his momentum because of the enton: [1] 
Notice how he slams on foot on the ground to stop advancing.

Not sure how A compares to Juubi tail but it was double kaiten that stopped it and for some reason I have trouble seeing Kaiten as a higher level defense than Susano'O.

Also as a side note : [1]
Some of the javelins shot by Juubi were getting through Neji's defense. He says "I can't sping fast enough."

I think A's speed can exploit the gaps in Kaiten.

For example, if you are standing still with a gun in your hand, it would be hard to shoot a guy in the driving seat of a car driving past you @ 300km/h.
But if you are in another car driving side by side with comparable speed, then you can aim @ shoot. If you are moving @ 300km/h yourself, then from your point of view, that car is standing still.

I'm pretty sure that same logic will apply here. I don't know how many times Neji spins per second, but from the perspective of a guy moving as fast as Raikage, he surely wouldn't be spinning so fast.




Icegaze said:


> kaiten wasn't even complete. Neji didn't have time to actually turn
> 
> lol love the fandom wooden goggles
> 
> ...



Without speed, none of the taijutsu users would be as effective. That is a generalization you can make, not exclusive to A.

A at least has grapling, so he can still liger bomb you and break your spine.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Then let me be the first one to say that you don't know shit about taijutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lmao what the fuck  I didn't even see this.

Why are you comparing Genin Neji to Elite Jounin Neji?

Neji are KN0 Naruto were no where equal in physical strength, Movement speed or chakra level. Neji countered him with great reactions, and chakra control.

Naruto didn't even punch through it, both were sent flying from the countering forces. 

Not sure once again how you think it's logical to give his past feats precedence over most recent feats. Juubi has Bjuu+ Strength being enhanced by a nearly endless supply of Nature Energy


----------



## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> Sakura was building up Byakugō no In over the timeskip, so what are you talking about?



Building it, yeah. She couldn't use it, nor could she use the other three S-Rank abilities derived from it.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

ITT Katien being compared to Susanoo.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 9, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> lmao what the fuck  I didn't even see this.
> 
> Why are you comparing Genin Neji to Elite Jounin Neji?
> 
> ...



This is not about comparing genin Neji to elite Jounin Neji.
Whatever the difference is between them, it exists on bigger amounts between Kn0 Naruto and Raikage.

What I'm saying is, Kaiten was broken/stopped by someone around Neji's level, someone slightly stronger.
Raikage is alot stronger than Jounin Neji or Hiashi. So the same thing is going to happen here as well.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> A shat on Sasuke's ribcage too, and he did that after fully stopping his momentum because of the enton: [1]
> Notice how he slams on foot on the ground to stop advancing.


He did not shit on it. He broke through it in V2 mode, and it did like 5% damage to Sasuke's Jaw.

He did not stop all of his momentum, you plant your foot to gain energy, just like if you run up to someone and try to punch them with concentration as opposed to a superman punch.



> Not sure how A compares to Juubi tail but it was double kaiten that stopped it and for some reason I have trouble seeing Kaiten as a higher level defense than Susano'O.


He doesn't. 
Gedo Mazo literally lolpalmed two mountains squishing him.

Juubi is Gedo core filled with Bjuu/Nature Energy. Meaning it's much stronger. It being two Kaiten really doesn't diminish the feat because of the magnitude of strength Juubi holds, and the fact that Hiashi accomplished a similar feat with just his air palm.



> Also as a side note : [1]
> Some of the javelins shot by Juubi were getting through Neji's defense. He says "I can't sping fast enough."
> 
> I think A's speed can exploit the gaps in Kaiten.


Neji couldn't spin fast enough because the assault was continuous with a ton of projectiles. We saw his defense fail in a similar way to Kidomaru. Unless you believe Ei can give Kaiten the weightless Lee vs Gaara sand treatment (which he can't because as soon as he punches it, it would send him flying), he isn't exploiting that gap.




> For example, if you are standing still with a gun in your hand, it would be hard to shoot a guy in the driving seat of a car driving past you @ 300km/h.
> But if you are in another car driving side by side with comparable speed, then you can aim @ shoot. If you are moving @ 300km/h yourself, then from your point of view, that car is standing still.


Doesn't work like that. Neji's defense shoots chakra omnidrectionally from his body and it swirls around him. Neji only got tagged because there were literally hundreds around his area that he needed to block, and the duration (he was standing still not moving to get away like Kakashi did) once again in cobo with how many projectiles at once, is what allowed some to slip *through as his spin speed began to slow down.*



> I'm pretty sure that same logic will apply here. I don't know how many times Neji spins per second, but from the perspective of a guy moving as fast as Raikage, he surely wouldn't be spinning so fast.


Hiashi and War Arc Neji are Elite Jounin and have great reactions based on having Byakugan.

Neji's spin amount has little to do with anythign until his duration increases towards the end because he will lose speed.

Problem is Neji/Hiashi aren't just going to randomly pull that out while Ei dances aside and times his shot. they are going to pull it out in response to him blitzing them in the first place.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> A shat on Sasuke's ribcage too, and he did that after fully stopping his momentum because of the enton: [1]
> Notice how he slams on foot on the ground to stop advancing.
> 
> Not sure how A compares to Juubi tail but it was double kaiten that stopped it and for some reason I have trouble seeing Kaiten as a higher level defense than Susano'O.
> ...



well they are all slower than A bar gai and less predictable. every single one of them is actually less predictable than A

so no some of these guys don't need speed, or even have speed slightly comparable to A. again only gai does and killer bee

so it is exclusive to A in deed

also kaiten has better feats than rib cage susanoo. A doesn't have anything to suggest he breaks kaiten,

and yes u are right. kaiten user cant spin forever, the slower he spins the less powerful kaiten is


----------



## Saru (Feb 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> A taijutsu style has nothing on hiashi
> 
> A got more stamina and more speed. u take those 2 away. hiashi low diff's him
> 
> ...




A uses a variety of wrestling moves which require a certain degree of skill to use. That's why he made the list, but he's not as high as Kimimaro, Lee, or Gai IMO. A's style is less technical and effective on its own, but it's still a style nonetheless. We haven't seen a lot from Hiashi in terms of what moves he can use, but I guess one could assume Hiashi to be capable of using every Hyuga-style taijutsu used in the series based on hype. I could see Hiashi being more skilled than A in taijutsu, sure, but it's difficult when the Hyuga were so marginalized.


----------



## LostSelf (Feb 9, 2016)

Part 1 Kaiten was busted by KN0 Naruto.
Part 2 Kaiten deflected a Juubi Tail.

Part 2 Kaiten obviously got extremely powerful, and unless we say Ei packs more power than a Juubi Tail, then it doesn't matter how much of a failure the technique was in part 1. It has nothing to do with current Kaiten.

It's like saying Konohamaru can beat EoS Sakura, because Konohamaru is stronger than Genin Sasuke, who was stronger than part 1 Sakura.

Something doesn't fit well there.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> A's style is less technical and effective on its own.



What do you mean by "on its own?"..?


----------



## Saru (Feb 9, 2016)

In isolation from A's superhuman strength and speed.


----------



## LostSelf (Feb 9, 2016)

Sorin said:


> First of all, one of my points in my post was that the sword will act on his own and will always side with Kisame. Fact is, samehada is not going to get separated from Kisame for more than a few moments. Another sword is not going to come back. That sword is part of Kisame's power in taijutsu and other things.
> 
> Why are you arguing about another sword? Kisame *wields samehada* not another no name sword. That gives him some advantages in CQC. Advantages such as reach,scales that shave like a friend and the fact that he can't be separated from it for too much time. It is not a normal blade and it only obeys Kisame(at least in a confrontation with Gai).
> 
> ...



Then is not Taijutsu, is Kenjutsu. The point is not the sword. You're saying Kisame is better because he punched Gai. Kisame punched Gai based on Gai's miscalculation over his strenght, nothing more.

Before that, Kisame was dissarmed painfully.

You tell me wich feats shows who's better in taijutsu of the two. Gai easily dissarming Kisame, or Kisame landing a hit on a Gai who wasn't expecting his strenght.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> ITT Katien being compared to Susanoo.


ITT post no arguments.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> This is not about comparing genin Neji to elite Jounin Neji.
> Whatever the difference is between them, it exists on bigger amounts between Kn0 Naruto and Raikage.
> 
> What I'm saying is, Kaiten was broken/stopped by someone around Neji's level, someone slightly stronger.
> Raikage is alot stronger than Jounin Neji or Hiashi. So the same thing is going to happen here as well.


your overall logic is crazily broken bro.
First off once again, Naruto did not bust Kaiten. KN0 Naruto's chakra levels and physical stats completely shit on Neji's. 

Secondly, you can't just compare situations like that... comparing the gap of Kn0 Naruto to Ei is inherently flawed way of trying to gauge Kaiten, because you don't know the level of improvement Neji underwent with the jutsu, and you don't it just doens't properly apply to your conclusion. KN0 Naruto never fought Part 2 Neji's Kaiten, so your direct comparison using scaling isn't going to work because of the first aforementioned factor.

Especially in light of feats in which Neji is blocking the Juubi...How far physically is the Juubi above Ei? Oh yeah that's right, it was casually finger blasting Hachibi and Kyuubi avatar with a flick.

once again, it didn't just block the hit, it also sent it flying back.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> In isolation from A's superhuman strength and speed.



Annnd what exactly makes the style less "technical" without A's speed & power? Also, there is no fighting style in existence that is more effective with less speed & strength.


----------



## Saru (Feb 9, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Oh yeah that's right, it was casually finger blasting Hachibi and Kyuubi avatar with a flick.
> 
> once again, it didn't just block the hit, it also sent it flying back.




i forgot the Juubi did that. 

yeah, no way A's busting through Kaiten with sheer strength. the speed argument is far more plausible, though.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Annnd what exactly makes the style less "technical" without A's speed & power? Also, there is no fighting style in existence that is more effective with less speed & strength.




Speed and power have nothing to do with technicality in the first place.

Being stronger doesn't make me any more capable of ice skating if I've never practiced ice skating in the first place. A professional ice skater is going to be more skilled than I am. Again, I'm primarily looking at skill in taijutsu.

Is this gonna turn into another Batman vs. the Flash discussion?


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> yeah, no way A's busting through Kaiten with sheer strength. the speed argument is far more plausible, though.



I mean do you think Ei could Shushin around Kaiten like how 5th gate Lee juggled Gaara in the air, all while halting before making contact as to not get sent flying, all for the duration of Kaiten's spin right before it ends? I don't.

Ei's gonna need to blitz, or just outmaneuver them in CqC.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> Speed and power have nothing to do with technicality in the first place.



Yo what.

You said _"A's style is less technical and effective in isolation from his superhuman strength and speed."_

So by your own logic you make no sense. Thus my question:

_"What exactly makes the style less "technical" without A's speed & power?"_


----------



## Saru (Feb 9, 2016)

*@Rocky:* Like I was trying to get across with my second post (first page), technicality =/= effectiveness. Obviously A's means to an end is more effective in certain situations when his speed and strength are taken into account.

A's moves just aren't all that complicated.




Dr. White said:


> I mean do you think Ei could Shushin around Kaiten like how 5th gate Lee juggled Gaara in the air, all while halting before making contact as to not get sent flying, all for the duration of Kaiten's spin right before it ends? I don't.
> 
> Ei's gonna need to blitz, or just outmaneuver them in CqC.




Well, the spikes were about as big as A's arm. Though they were a bit narrower at the tip than A's hand. 

But there's also the fact that Neji emphasized the quantity of spikes that were being showered upon him.

"There's so _many_!"

That to me implies that a weakness of Kaiten is being overwhelmed with numbers moreso than speed. If all Hiashi has to do is keep track of A's two fists (which he can with his 360 degree vision), he should be able to adjust his Kaiten accordingly.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 9, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> He did not shit on it. He broke through it in V2 mode, and it did like 5% damage to Sasuke's Jaw.



Susano'o soaked the damage, but it got broken nontheless.
Also A being in V2 has little to do with anything if he can't use that mode to reach a certain speed and use the momentum for power.
He was stationary when he karatechopped Ribcage Susano'o.



> He did not stop all of his momentum, you plant your foot to gain energy, just like if you run up to someone and try to punch them with concentration as opposed to a superman punch.


I may be misinterpreting it but it seems like A sees the enton and goes "!!" thenwe get a panel of focus to his feet and it slams on the ground like a stopping motion. 
To me it looked like instictively stopped after seing the flames(sort of like how Kabuto did). But then he was like "fuck it." and slammed it eitherway.



> He doesn't.
> Gedo Mazo literally lolpalmed two mountains squishing him.


What does this have anything to do with it ?


> Juubi is Gedo core filled with Bjuu/Nature Energy. Meaning it's much stronger. It being two Kaiten really doesn't diminish the feat because of the magnitude of strength Juubi holds, and the fact that Hiashi accomplished a similar feat with just his air palm.


There is absolutely no evidence that single tail of juubi holds more power than 2 of Gedo's arms and his whole upper torso.

And you are ignoring the momentum A gains with his max Shunshin. A doesn't have to be physical strong enough to generate a power comparable to a single tail of Juubi.
I'm not saying he can, but gaining massive speed is behind the power of A's attacks.



> Neji couldn't spin fast enough because the assault was continuous with a ton of projectiles. We saw his defense fail in a similar way to Kidomaru. Unless you believe Ei can give Kaiten the weightless Lee vs Gaara sand treatment (which he can't because as soon as he punches it, it would send him flying), he isn't exploiting that gap.


Actually, I think with A's reaction speed and the speeds he can accelerate to, Neji will look like he is in a standstill.  Unless Neji's spinning speed is alot faster than A's V2 Shunshin and beyond his reaction speed to perceive

But then Neji would be hailed as the fastest guy if that was actually the case. 
So I believe A @ his top speed is faster than Neji's Kaiten.



> Doesn't work like that. Neji's defense shoots chakra omnidrectionally from his body and it swirls around him. Neji only got tagged because there were literally hundreds around his area that he needed to block, and the duration (he was standing still not moving to get away like Kakashi did) once again in cobo with how many projectiles at once, is what allowed some to slip *through as his spin speed began to slow down.*


It actually works like that. Neji emits chakra and spins, and because of the speed of his spin, it looks like a spinning ball of chakra. But actualy, there are gaps in between, it is not like Naruto's chakra roar or Shinra Tensei.

Someone moving @ comparable speeds in the same direction will see Neji at a standstill.
Someone with reaction speed above Minato, may actually look right into it and percieve each spin.
Again, I'm speculating but when it comes to a guy whose reaction speed was hyped to be above Minato, it might be possible.



> Hiashi and War Arc Neji are Elite Jounin and have great reactions based on having Byakugan.


I have nothing against that.



> Neji's spin amount has little to do with anythign until his duration increases towards the end because he will lose speed.



It is continous movement.
Anyone with the perception/reaction speed to see it and the speed to match it, can actualy go in, slap neji in the face, and get out in between spins.



> Problem is Neji/Hiashi aren't just going to randomly pull that out while Ei dances aside and times his shot. they are going to pull it out in response to him blitzing them in the first place.



Assuming they have on par reaction speed with Minato,  and can accelerate their Kaiten to full speed before A closes the distance with his max shunsin, and he can't course correct like he did against Sasuke and his strength isn't enough to break it or his speed enough to exploit it, then yes they would deflect him.

But then, don't you think that is a long list of assumptions ?



Icegaze said:


> well they are all slower than A bar gai and less predictable. every single one of them is actually less predictable than A
> 
> so no some of these guys don't need speed, or even have speed slightly comparable to A. again only gai does and killer bee
> 
> ...



A is mainly a grappler. Once he closes the distance, speed isn't that important, as we've seen against Sasuke.

Also I am not sure why you keep bringing up Katiten vs Ribcage Susano'o, because A broke through ribcage Susano'o. It is irrelevant.



Dr. White said:


> your overall logic is crazily broken bro.
> First off once again, Naruto did not bust Kaiten. KN0 Naruto's chakra levels and physical stats completely shit on Neji's.
> 
> Secondly, you can't just compare situations like that... comparing the gap of Kn0 Naruto to Ei is inherently flawed way of trying to gauge Kaiten, because you don't know the level of improvement Neji underwent with the jutsu, and you don't it just doens't properly apply to your conclusion. KN0 Naruto never fought Part 2 Neji's Kaiten, so your direct comparison using scaling isn't going to work because of the first aforementioned factor.
> ...



I think it is a pretty legit comparison.

Naruto broke it with sheer speed and strength.
If chakra levels is an indicator, then Raikage's chakra levels shit on Jounin Neji too, as he was compared to a bijuu.
The speed difference between him and Neji is possibly bigger than the speed difference between genin Neji and Genin Naruto, and likely the power A can generate is greater than the power scaled off of Kn0 Naruto too.

This shit is pretty linear.
Scaling works fine.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> A uses a variety of wrestling moves which require a certain degree of skill to use. That's why he made the list, but he's not as high as Kimimaro, Lee, or Gai IMO. A's style is less technical and effective on its own, but it's still a style nonetheless. We haven't seen a lot from Hiashi in terms of what moves he can use, but I guess one could assume Hiashi to be capable of using every Hyuga-style taijutsu used in the series based on hype. I could see Hiashi being more skilled than A in taijutsu, sure, but it's difficult when the Hyuga were so marginalized.



A wrestling moves are moves killer bee can use as well, despite having his own sword style. 

lariat isn't particularly skilful. there isn't much skill required at least none that comes to mind. 

I certainly believe hiashi is more skilled

his taijutsu allows for range attacks, chakra blocking, chakra draining, organ damage

I base skill also based on what their taijutsu allows them to achieve

perhaps I underrate A a lot but even speed which is honestly all he has above those on here that he can beat. he isn't the top in speed

gates gives just as much speed with a lot more range and power


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## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Susano'o soaked the damage, but it got broken nontheless.
> Also A being in V2 has little to do with anything if he can't use that mode to reach a certain speed and use the momentum for power.
> He was stationary when he karatechopped Ribcage Susano'o.
> 
> ...



not enough to kill sasuke. 

Also kabuto baby suiton broke through it. hardly an achievement breaking rhough rib cage susanoo

scaling works so fine why didn't juubi tail just flatten neji and his uncle

by scaling juubi presence alone should kill hiashi. juubi shouldn't even have to move...

yet kishi made a point to show that what they did was impressive, considering Naruto did not think that they could

if we go by scaling, juubi>>>>>>>>>>>>>>A by a shit ton

before one tries to make juubi sound weak. its tail swing caused enough of a wind storm to counter the a battlefield area LoS blocker. and that was level 1 juubi casual tail flick


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## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> A's moves just aren't all that complicated.



But like, they are. If they weren't, they would not be classified as difficult taijutsu to learn.


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## Saru (Feb 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> A wrestling moves are moves killer bee can use as well, despite having his own sword style.
> 
> lariat isn't particularly skilful. there isn't much skill required at least none that comes to mind.
> 
> ...




I agree with you for the most part. Like I said, I could see Hiashi being better than A at taijutsu.

Maybe I've just fallen under Rocky's genjutsu.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> But like, they are. If they weren't, they would not be classified as difficult taijutsu to learn.




Maybe they are difficult to learn (aside from Lariat, which I can probably do). But in application? Gai's taijutsu or Kimi's taijutsu w/Shikotsumyaku is gonna be a lot more effective. Not to mention unpredictable and versatile. Hiashi is certainly more versatile than A in pure taijutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> not enough to kill sasuke.



Like I explained to Dr. White, it wasn't A's strongest attack, so what relevance does it have? 
It was enough to break the ribcage eitherway.



> Also kabuto baby suiton broke through it. hardly an achievement breaking rhough rib cage susanoo



I don't think he broke it, ist just knocked Sasuke over and Sasuke deactivated because it was no use. 



> ]scaling works so fine why didn't juubi tail just flatten neji and his uncle
> 
> by scaling juubi presence alone should kill hiashi. juubi shouldn't even have to move...
> 
> yet kishi made a point to show that what they did was impressive, considering Naruto did not think that they could


I guess double Kaiten is strong enough to stop a single tail from Juubi. But then, what does that prove ?
Obviously one of them wouldn't be able to stop it.




> if we go by scaling, juubi>>>>>>>>>>>>>>A by a shit ton


Irrelevant. Unless you think Neji and his uncle wrestled down Juubi and beat it.



> before one tries to make juubi sound weak. its tail swing caused enough of a wind storm to counter the a battlefield area LoS blocker. and that was level 1 juubi casual tail flick



No one is trying to make Juubi look weak.
I am just wondering how blocking a tailswipe from Juubi with double kaiten translates into stopping A's V2 punch by a single kaiten.


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## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2016)

Because V2 A punch is a lot weaker than juubi tail swing 

Based on scaling you like using so much

So kaiten blocks A punch based on feats and scaling


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Because V2 A punch is a lot weaker than juubi tail swing


based on what ? 



> Based on scaling you like using so much
> 
> So kaiten blocks A punch based on feats and scaling



What do you scale it off of ?


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## ImSerious (Feb 9, 2016)

1. Minato
2. Gai
3. B
4. Kakashi

the rest


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## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> Maybe they are difficult to learn (aside from Lariat, which I can probably do).



If A has mastered multiple difficult taijutsu, what is your basis for putting him below Kimimaro? Oh, and for the record, Lariat is an A-Rank taijutsu for ninjas. Since you are not a ninja, you are going to have difficulty performing E-Rank abilities. 



Saru said:


> Gai's taijutsu or Kimi's taijutsu w/Shikotsumyaku is gonna be a lot more effective.



Effectiveness is irrelevant to proficiency.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> based on what ?
> 
> 
> 
> What do you scale it off of ?



So what do u base A punch being stronger than juubi tail ?? Go on tell me 

When A can throw a punch and cause a wind storm then his punch would be considered just as strong 

When A got juubi level chakra then perhaps his hits might be as strong


So unless A punch is not more than half as strong as juubi tail swing kaiten blocks him

I find it ridiculous for you to think A can hit harder than juubi . Makes zero sense


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> So what do u base A punch being stronger than juubi tail ?? Go on tell me
> 
> When A can throw a punch and cause a wind storm then his punch would be considered just as strong
> 
> When A got juubi level chakra then perhaps his hits might be as strong



It doesn't have to be as strong as Juubi's tail for a couple of reasons.
First off, it was double kaiten that stopped the tail. 
Second off, all the power of A is focused on his first. It is a much smaller surface area than Juubi's tail.

Lets just use numbers to make this easier.

Lets say Kaiten's size is 10 and each unit has 5 points of defense = total defense 50
Lets say Juubi's taij's size is 40 and each unit has 1 point of offense = total offense 40
Lets say A's fist's size is 1 and each unit has 30 points of offense = Total offense 30

Now Kaiten can hold off Juubi's tail because the PSI(pounds per square inch) is not strong enough to breach it.
While A's punch does less damage in total, its PSI is much higher.

Thats my logic.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Susano'o soaked the damage, but it got broken nontheless.
> Also A being in V2 has little to do with anything if he can't use that mode to reach a certain speed and use the momentum for power.
> He was stationary when he karatechopped Ribcage Susano'o.


The only reason he did anythign to susanoo was because hw as in V2, unless you think his motionless Chakra coated chop is > Liger Bomb.



> I may be misinterpreting it but it seems like A sees the enton and goes "!!" thenwe get a panel of focus to his feet and it slams on the ground like a stopping motion.
> To me it looked like instictively stopped after seing the flames(sort of like how Kabuto did). But then he was like "fuck it." and slammed it eitherway.


He momentarily stopped himself, I conceded he lost some force, but he still planted in order to transfer most of it into the Chop. Ei really more so stopped because something popped up out of nowhere, and then he was like "you think I'm a chump."




> What does this have anything to do with it ?


The Gedo is the outer shell of Juubi's V1 body with no chakra...



> There is absolutely no evidence that single tail of juubi holds more power than 2 of Gedo's arms and his whole upper torso.


Gedo's arm did more of the force, as if his arm wasn't strong enough (if he relied on his torso) it would have buckled. He stopped those things in their tracks and had little to no struggle.

A single Juubi tail that has nature/Bjuu chakra >>> Sealed Gedo Statue.



> And you are ignoring the momentum A gains with his max Shunshin. A doesn't have to be physical strong enough to generate a power comparable to a single tail of Juubi.
> I'm not saying he can, but gaining massive speed is behind the power of A's attacks.


No I am not. His acceleration is only going to increase his force because his mass stays the same. The force he has in V2 is not busting through kaiten, or remotely comparable to a Bjuu Tail swipe. Let's not get ridiculous her, Sakura outputs more force in her blows than Ei.

You realize the tails are the hallmark of Bjuu anatomy right?




> Actually, I think with A's reaction speed and the speeds he can accelerate to, Neji will look like he is in a standstill.  Unless Neji's spinning speed is alot faster than A's V2 Shunshin and beyond his reaction speed to perceive


Nothign suggest this even in the slightest. Maybe in V2 as he was able to move faster than Sasuke could turn his head (sasuke realized and mentally casted but could not physically respond in time), but not in V1 which Sasuke can canoncially outpace physically with sharingan pre cog (lee vs Sasuke example in regards to him physically moving).

V2 Ei doesn't have V2 reactions in V1 and even if he did, he still couldn't move to intercept the Kaiten.

You are also applying feats of thin projectiles with littel surface area towars the end of his spin, to a huge Man trying to move his body through a small space.



> But then Neji would be hailed as the fastest guy if that was actually the case.
> So I believe A @ his top speed is faster than Neji's Kaiten.


Lmao what? That is nonsense. Neji is not facing V2 Ei here, so lets' get that off the bat. I guess 3 tomoe Sasuke is the fastest man for outmaneuvering Ei from under a meter away. Point two, Neji's is always releasing the chakra swirl, there isn't gaps for Ei to just slide through until he loses initial spin speed and even then Ei is not a long thin Rod coming from above.


> It actually works like that. Neji emits chakra and spins, and because of the speed of his spin, it looks like a spinning ball of chakra. But actualy, there are gaps in between, it is not like Naruto's chakra roar or Shinra Tensei.


The gaps are extremely neglible and no those gaps are not as big during the beginning part of his spin, only as be begins to slow. Had the Juubi shot one round, then he Neji would have never gotten hit.



> Someone moving @ comparable speeds in the same direction will see Neji at a standstill.


Raikage is not going to encircle Neji at speeds akin to his Kaiten. Neji spun fast enough to block Juubi, and on top of it Ei cannot ring around the rose shushin, because it's not linear movement.



> Someone with reaction speed above Minato, may actually look right into it and percieve each spin.


V2 Ei's reactions are not above Minato's, and no there is absolutely no evidence of what you are trying to portray. 



> Again, I'm speculating but when it comes to a guy whose reaction speed was hyped to be above Minato, it might be possible.


V2 Ei was not being talked about.

V2 Ei may see the world slowly , but not by that much that Kaiten and his opponents move at matrix level speed. Minato was able to move a Kunai with his hand speed before Ei moved a couple of feet.

Minato has comparable reactions and does not see the world in slow mo, he can just react to things extremely well and faster than others because of his reaction to stimuli.



> It is continous movement.
> Anyone with the perception/reaction speed to see it and the speed to match it, can actualy go in, slap neji in the face, and get out in between spins.


what the hell?
Ei does not moved continously...He moves in fixed, discrete amounts...The Juubi was continously firing hundreds of projectiles over multiple seconds. 

Ei would have to appear in space the same amount of times as every single Mokuton did with pure speed, and from every angle, and still have ti wait for the spin to start coming to a halt. Kaiten itself in prime form does not have human sized or even mokuton spike holes.


> Assuming they have on par reaction speed with Minato,  and can accelerate their Kaiten to full speed before A closes the distance with his max shunsin, and he can't course correct like he did against Sasuke and his strength isn't enough to break it or his speed enough to exploit it, then yes they would deflect him.


Kaiten immediately shoots with his spin. Hence why Neji blocked Naruto's base punch when it was an inch away from his cheek.

V1 Ei is not blitzing Hiashi or Nejo before that happens.



> But then, don't you think that is a long list of assumptions ?


Like what? Neji and Hiashi moving in a rotation before being blitzed? The people with a byakugan reacting to a linear attack from a huge muscular man? Juugo himself was able to throw up a block in time to V1 Ei, and he doesn't have a taijutsu oriented 360 vision



A is mainly a grappler. Once he closes the distance, speed isn't that important, as we've seen against Sasuke.

Also I am not sure why you keep bringing up Katiten vs Ribcage Susano'o, because A broke through ribcage Susano'o. It is irrelevant.



I think it is a pretty legit comparison.

Naruto broke it with sheer speed and strength.
If chakra levels is an indicator, then Raikage's chakra levels shit on Jounin Neji too, as he was compared to a bijuu.
The speed difference between him and Neji is possibly bigger than the speed difference between genin Neji and Genin Naruto, and likely the power A can generate is greater than the power scaled off of Kn0 Naruto too.

This shit is pretty linear.
Scaling works fine.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What do you scale it off of ?


Juubi Tail > Gedo Arm

Juubi Tail >


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## Sorin (Feb 9, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Then is not Taijutsu, is Kenjutsu. The point is not the sword. You're  saying Kisame is better because he punched Gai. Kisame punched Gai based  on Gai's miscalculation over his strenght, nothing more.
> 
> Before that, Kisame was dissarmed painfully.
> 
> You tell me wich feats shows who's better in taijutsu of the two. Gai  easily dissarming Kisame, or Kisame landing a hit on a Gai who wasn't  expecting his strenght.



So it goes like this. Alex asks Rocky, the OP, what he means by skilled.



Alex Payne said:


> What do you mean by "skilled"?



To which Rocky replies:



Rocky said:


> Proficiency. Competency. The like.
> 
> Kenjutsu is included, by the way. That's why I've got B above A.



That's why i included Kisame with samehada. 

How many times do i have to say that i do consider Gai more skilful than Kisame? If we only go by that, then of course he is superior to Kisame. No arguments there.

However, I don't think he can win against him in a solely taijutsu/kenjutsu based match. Partly because of samehada and partly because Kisame is a tank and I consider durability/endurance as a part of being a good taijutsu fighter. Note, I haven't  said skilful.

I will stop here as i admit that i have maybe misunderstood what the OP really wanted to classify here and i'm arguing just for the sake of arguing who wins against who at this point. 
From a skill standpoint Gai is unmatched and when you add gates, it's a no brainer. That much is clear.


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## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It doesn't have to be as strong as Juubi's tail for a couple of reasons.
> First off, it was double kaiten that stopped the tail.
> Second off, all the power of A is focused on his first. It is a much smaller surface area than Juubi's tail.
> 
> ...



Name 1 reason it doesn't have to be as strong as juubi tail swing 

True smaller surface area : pressure = force /area 

However what happens if juubi force is so much larger than the area it's acting on which wouldn't surprise me considering the wind storms 

So if it's force is 100 it's area 20. Yet A force is 4 but his area 1 .  Juubi would still have more pressure acting on kaiten 

That's my logic 

anyone can come up with a simple logic to justify something however considering kaiten specifically repells chakra . A has less chakra than juubi so less to repell


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2016)

Some of the lists here are utterly ridiculous. 

Taijutsu is "body techniques"

Techniques are "a way of carrying out a particular task"

Skill is "the ability to do something well"

So, who carries out a particular task the best  with their body?

No one outside of god levels should be on this list, 7 of them (Naruto, Kaguya, Hagoromo, Judara, Toneri, Jubito, Momoshiki)  can literally fly through space (move their body) in any direction with their body faster than most of the people who have been listed by some of you can even perceive happening.

The fact that no one has listed Kaguya as the most skilled taijutsu user in this manga begs to question how many people here have fanboy loyalties. She can move her body any direction in space while staying completely still at speeds that few can ever perceive and by lifting her arm she can amass Yasogami Kūgeki, a taijutsu technique, that one shotted Sasuke Uchiha's Rikudo-enhanced Perfect Susano and numerous Rikudo Sage Mode (with bijuu chakra enhancing) Flying Naruto Shadow Clones.


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## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> That to me implies that a weakness of Kaiten is being overwhelmed with numbers moreso than speed. If all Hiashi has to do is keep track of A's two fists (which he can with his 360 degree vision), he should be able to adjust his Kaiten accordingly.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


this only applies towards the end of the spin though.


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## Saru (Feb 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> If A has mastered multiple difficult taijutsu, what is your basis for putting him below Kimimaro? Oh, and for the record, Lariat is an A-Rank taijutsu for ninjas. Since you are not a ninja, you are going to have difficulty performing E-Rank abilities.




Because A's taijutsu relies moreso on power and speed to get the job done than the actual taijutsu itself. With Kimimaro, his whole body is a weapon, and he has excellent taijutsu on top of that.



> Effectiveness is irrelevant to proficiency.




Well, yeah, those two things are not the same. I can be really proficient at twiddling my thumbs, but that's not gonna drop fodder left and right the way wrestling moves will. 

A's style is the issue. A's style of combat is not as effective as Gai's or Kimimaro's if speed and pure strength are removed from the equation. Asking "Whose the more skilled taijutsu user?" is like asking who _style_ of _taijutsu_ is more effective / complex. A lacks style.

You know how you always make the argument that Tsunade's attacks are too linear for A to be hit? That she's too predictable? 

Yeah, it's the same thing with A if his strength and speed are equalized, you just don't realize it. 



Dr. White said:


> this only applies towards the end of the spin though.




But he was still spinning while making those comments in the other example, though. At least that's what it looked like. I don't know why he would complain about the speed of his spin if he had stopped.


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## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2016)

Slower spin = weaker kaiten 

This was firmly established through out the manga

Neji or hiashi can stop loads of moves so long as they are spinning at top speed before the moves get there otherwise their chances lessen of blocking said moves

If A had say asuma level speed he would drop a few tiers 

In fact of all those listed here so far he may be the weakest if he had asuma level speed


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## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> But he was still spinning while making those comments in the other example, though. At least that's what it looked like. I don't know why he would complain about the speed of his spin if he had stopped.


He stopped there because he thought he had taken care of the weapons. In the earlier example he blocked every projectile from multiple directions. The whole reason Kimmimaro used the web was so that he could thwart Kaiten because of how effective it was as a defense.

Neji had to spin there for much longer, and faced hundreds of times more projectiles, with only one getting through. I'm positive the viz probably goes something along the lines of " I can't keep up my speed to block them. Neji only has a certain amount of time before he begins to slow, like a Beyblade. The difference in force lessening is why "holes" start to appear in which long short projectiles can break through.


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 9, 2016)

Are we talking about overall because the conclusion of the series Naruto and Sasuke are on another level with what they can do in CQC , but if we take away the E.O.S 

Killer Bee, Ei, Gai , Lee , Hyuuga gots to be top 5 because they rely on taijutsu more heavily than most characters shit the guy people are forgetting about is Mifune he should be in consideration as well


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## Saru (Feb 9, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> He stopped there because he thought he had taken care of the weapons. In the earlier example he blocked every projectile from multiple directions. The whole reason Kimmimaro used the web was so that he could thwart Kaiten because of how effective it was as a defense.
> 
> Neji had to spin there for much longer, and faced hundreds of times more projectiles, with only one getting through. I'm positive the viz probably goes something along the lines of " I can't keep up my speed to block them. Neji only has a certain amount of time before he begins to slow, like a Beyblade. The difference in force lessening is why "holes" start to appear in which long short projectiles can break through.




I'm not saying that the number of attacks was the only factor, I'm saying that it was likely the bigger factor (and the reason why A wouldn't be able to slip through Neji's Kaiten). Speed is also a factor, but I doubt that it would be an issue when A only has two arms for the Byakugan user to keep track of.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> I'm not saying that the number of attacks was the only factor, I'm saying that it was likely the bigger factor (and the reason why A wouldn't be able to slip through Neji's Kaiten). Speed is also a factor, but I doubt that it would be an issue when A only has two arms for the Byakugan user to keep track of.



I understand but what I am getting across is that there is a period of time in which you cannot bypass the chakra barrier. That period begins right as Neji starts to spin (Naruto example) and ends a bit before the Barrier starts to dissipate. Number of projectiles is irrelevant, as is speed. You can't throw a kunai into Kaiten in the middle of it's spin even with God Tier reflexes because there are no cracks.
Esentially:
- You blitz.
- You have enough force to punch through Neji's attempting to spin at extremely close range (the barrier has no erected) and speed to get there ebfore he can spin once or move back.
- You wait until he begins to slow.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> A's style is the issue. A's style of combat is not as effective as Gai's or Kimimaro's if speed and pure strength are removed from the equation. Asking "Whose the more skilled taijutsu user?" is like asking who _style_ of _taijutsu_ is more effective / complex. A lacks style.



Effectiveness ≠ Complexity ≠ Proficiency

I am asking for proficiency. Both Gai & A would suffer if they were forced to use the same style of taijutsu they currently use without their speed & power. That's like taking the Byakugan from a Hyūga and saying that Jūken isn't as effective a Gōken. "Who's the most skilled taijutsu user" means who uses the most advanced  body techniques, not whose body techniques are the most effective. That would depend on the situation.


----------



## Saru (Feb 9, 2016)

Rocky said:
			
		

> Effectiveness ≠ Complexity ≠ Proficiency
> 
> I am asking for proficiency. Both Gai & A would suffer if they were forced to use the same style of taijutsu they currently use without their speed & power. That's like taking the Byakugan from a Hyūga and saying that Jūken isn't as effective a Gōken. "Who's the most skilled taijutsu user" means who uses the most advanced body techniques, not whose body techniques are the most effective. That would depend on the situation.




I was not equating any of those things you just mentioned. Complexity and effectiveness are _both_ valid interpretations of the question asked in the OP. Proficiency can lead to greater effectiveness, but proficiency cannot follow from effectiveness. So of course effectiveness is irrelevant to proficiency. That doesn't even make sense; it's backwards. Both Gai and A would suffer from a loss in speed and strength, but if those factors were equalized, _A would suffer more_. This goes back to the other thread when I said that speed and strength are not skills, but attributes.



Dr. White said:


> I understand but what I am getting across is that there is a period of time in which you cannot bypass the chakra barrier. That period begins right as Neji starts to spin (Naruto example) and ends a bit before the Barrier starts to dissipate. Number of projectiles is irrelevant, as is speed. You can't throw a kunai into Kaiten in the middle of it's spin even with God Tier reflexes because there are no cracks.
> Esentially:
> - You blitz.
> - You have enough force to punch through Neji's attempting to spin at extremely close range (the barrier has no erected) and speed to get there ebfore he can spin once or move back.
> - You wait until he begins to slow.




But if Neji had stopped spinning when he was deflecting spikes in the War, why did he state that he couldn't spin fast enough? I'm under the impression that if there are enough objects bombarding the Kaiten barrier at one time _along with_ the an _appropriate amount of penetrative force_, the Kaiten can be broken. It's like a weight threshold for an elevator. Too much weight, and the elevator will break. The Kaiten barrier holds an _overall_ force threshold; it can only handle so much force at one time. Even if that force is spread out, the Kaiten will cave if pushed beyond its threshold. A large number of wooden spikes that are chucked at high velocity would have a lot of penetrative force due to not only the pointed tip of the spike (and its aerodynamic shape, which is conducive to minimizing drag resistance), but the speed at which the spike is thrown. Under this train of thought, it makes sense Neji's Kaiten was overwhelmed by the force of the spikes. Neji's Kaiten could handle _one_ spike, but he couldn't handle the combined force of all of the spikes bombarding the the barrier at once. That's why he said that there were _too many_. If the strength (load) of Neji's Kaiten is dependent upon the revolution speed, then that would give his comments about not being able to spin fast enough more meaning.

Again, Hiashi wouldn't have this problem against A since A only has two hands to produce force with, and that combined force would not be enough to overwhelm the Kaiten load, so he'd be gucci.

That's my logic anyway.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Effectiveness ≠ Complexity ≠ Proficiency
> 
> I am asking for proficiency. Both Gai & A would suffer if they were forced to use the same style of taijutsu they currently use without their speed & power. That's like taking the Byakugan from a Hyūga and saying that Jūken isn't as effective a Gōken. "Who's the most skilled taijutsu user" means who uses the most advanced  body techniques, not whose body techniques are the most effective. That would depend on the situation.



But gates is more effective than A jutsu for example despite both being speed and power based 

Since gates gives range as well , while A lacks that all together 

As for most advanced body technique that's very situation dependent . 

Chouji style, jukken and gouken all stand a better chance of breaching susanoo than A taijutsu style does


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## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> But if Neji had stopped spinning when he was deflecting spikes in the War, why did he state that he couldn't spin fast enough?


I gotta catch the bus but I went over this. Juubi had good enough ratio of projectiles to time shooting them. In the first scene before we see see everyone start dodging them, Kaiten is blocking all fo them with no holes. Neji after some panels notes, he can't keep up spin speed as some pass through due to his spin coming near an end which then immediately happens.


----------



## Sumu (Feb 9, 2016)

Gai
Lee
Hiashi/Neji
Kimimaro
A/B


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2016)

Situations where A style is inferior to jukken , gouken and akimichi style 

1) multiple fodders : kaiten took out 20 in 1 spin , gouken well hirudora easily does the same many times over , akimichi BM punch was shown to send fodders flying even when not aimed at them 

2) long range fighters 

3) defensive based fighters (susanoo campers)


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> If it is not taijutsu, and it is not genjutsu, it defaults to ninjutsu.



_You never demonstrated that it wasn't Taijutsu in the first place, though_. Nor is there any reason to default it to Ninjutsu when the techniques of it are repeatedly labeled _Taijutsu_.



> The dances you listed are taijutsu, but the ability itself, along with the other two dances, are seemingly ninjutsu.



The dances _are_ the ability itself; what even makes those dances those dances in the first place are the particular formations of bone tissue, not Kimimaro's _subsequent_ actions. That's why he's used them without moving from his original position.



> Opening those five gates is not a taijutsu.



.

More than once:

.



> It _didn't_ mean diddly. Kakashi saw potential in Sakura, but she was still a chūnin using a chūnin-level ability.



Sakura _was a Chūnin_, so it would not be incredible _even for her_ if that was simply a display of Chūnin-level skill. Ōkashō's acquisition difficulty might be rated at C because it presumes one already has the Chakra control of an elite among medical specialists (as is required for _Shosen_, which Sakura learned _back in Part 1_ and Kakashi _already knew she had been taught going by the prior page_), like Hiraishingiri and iirc Raijū Hashiri probably do.

Kakashi didn't even give the fact that _Part 1 Naruto_ learned _Rasengan_ that much emphasis. Come on now.


----------



## Sadgoob (Feb 9, 2016)

IIRC the people with 5's in the databook are Kimimaro, Gai, Hiashi, Tsunade, Hiruzen, and Lee. Are there others? But a lot of powerful people aren't included in the databook. I'd say:

1. Gai
2. Lee
3. A
4. Hiashi
5. Kimimaro​


----------



## Jad (Feb 9, 2016)

Just a heads up guys. But again, by The Last, Rock Lee was called the best Taijutsu fighter in Konoha.


----------



## Sadgoob (Feb 9, 2016)

^ Best taijutsu fighter ever? Or just at the time?

Gai laid into Jubidara. That's a tall order to overcome.


----------



## Jad (Feb 9, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> ^ Best taijutsu fighter ever? Or just at the time?
> 
> Gai laid into Jubidara. That's a tall order to overcome.



Databook only said Lee was the best Taijutsu fighter in the leaf. This is for the Last databook.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2016)

Considering by that time gai was a disabled ninja 

Makes sense 

Also with neji dead and hiashi in retirement , makes even more sense


----------



## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> The dances _are_ the ability itself; what even makes those dances those dances in the first place are the particular formations of bone tissue, not Kimimaro's _subsequent_ actions. That's why he's used them without moving from his original position.



If the bone abilities themselves are taijutsu, then I could definitely see Kimimaro being in my top five. 



FlamingRain said:


> .
> 
> More than once:
> 
> .



You're referring to Hachimon Tonkō no Jin, which is the state one enters upon opening _all eight._ There isn't an entry for any other gate. Nothing in the first two Databooks mention Lee's 5th gate being a taijutsu itself.



FlamingRain said:


> Ōkashō's acquisition difficulty might be rated at C because it presumes one already has the Chakra control of an elite among medical specialists



I don't have a problem with that interpretation.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> You're referring to Hachimon Tonkō no Jin, which is the state one enters upon opening _all eight._ There isn't an entry for any other gate. Nothing in the first two Databooks mention Lee's 5th gate being a taijutsu itself.



The Hachimon Tonkō no Jin is the state _of_ having opened all eight. It's the same sort of thing simply to a different _degree_, which is probably why the entry lists them starting from gate 1 to gate 8. It's like going up a staircase. So if one is classified as Taijutsu even by itself (Sekizō and Yagai have their own entries) then the others would logically be as well.


----------



## Jad (Feb 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> If the bone abilities themselves are taijutsu, then I could definitely see Kimimaro being in my top five.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually. I got Ura Renge translated a while back.

Not many people have seen this databook entry translated because its  no where to be found.



> (Taijutsu) Hidden Lotus (Ura Renge) | Rock Lee
> *Attack* *Close* A
> 
> Surpassing the body's limits with a second Lotus!! (Panel: HIDDEN LOTUS!!!)
> ...


----------



## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

Lol, so we're going to take the Databook IV entry for Hachimon Tonkō no Jin and use it to say that the speed, strength, and taijutsu of the 5th Gate were being factored into Lee's 3.5 taijutsu statistic back in Databook I despite there being no entry classifying them as taijutsu in that Databook itself?


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 9, 2016)

For aforementioned reasons, yes, the ability to open the gates should have been factored in.

The second link I posted seems to be calling the Hachimon period Taijutsu, since it specifies which one is required for the mystery dragon after that sentence.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 9, 2016)

It may be considered taijutsu _now._ It sure as hell wasn't back then.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 9, 2016)

Reps to Jad.

Where'd you find that? 



Rocky said:


> It may be considered taijutsu _now._ It sure wasn't back then.



Because?


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2016)

On a seperate note, I told you so Rocky 



> The purpose of the Hidden Lotus is to release an excessive amount of energy by *undoing the human body's natural limiters.* Of course, this threatens to destroy the jutsu user's body as it struggles to withstand such a strain. It has thus been made a forbidden jutsu.


----------



## Jad (Feb 9, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Reps to Jad.
> 
> Where'd you find that?
> 
> ...



I got someone to translate it because no one else did. You can find the post in the Naruto Translation thread.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Feb 9, 2016)

gai, hiashi, hidan, kimi, bee


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Name 1 reason it doesn't have to be as strong as juubi tail swing


The whole point of that post was to show you that 




> True smaller surface area : pressure = force /area
> 
> However what happens if juubi force is so much larger than the area it's acting on which wouldn't surprise me considering the wind storms
> 
> ...



I put those numbers to explain to you why A doesn't have to be stronger than Juubi's tail and yet still can bring down Kaiten.

The surface area of A's fist is much smaller than Juubi's. So the force he needs to create similar PIS on that surface is much smaller than Juubi's tail.

Again,  lets say Juubi's overall power is 500 spread on 50 units. So PIS is 10. 
Lets divide that number by 2 because 2 Kaiten were used to stop it. 500/2 = 250 / 50 = 5.

If A's PIS is 6, then we actually don't know if the Kaiten can stop it or not.

So Juubi's power = 500
A's power = 6

Juubi is 100 times more powerful and yet A has a shot to breach Kaiten.



> however considering kaiten specifically repells chakra . A has less chakra than juubi so less to repell



This is fanfiction.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 10, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> The only reason he did anythign to susanoo was because hw as in V2, unless you think his motionless Chakra coated chop is > Liger Bomb.


V2 increases his reaction speed and thats it. 
And yes Raiton Chop > Liger bomb pound per pound. 



> He momentarily stopped himself, I conceded he lost some force, but he still planted in order to transfer most of it into the Chop. Ei really more so stopped because something popped up out of nowhere, and then he was like "you think I'm a chump."



There is a reason why A gave props to Minato and Naruto when they dodged his fastest punch. 
Stationary raiton chop isn't his fastest or strongest attack. Thus it packs alot less power than his V2 Shunshin punch.


> The Gedo is the outer shell of Juubi's V1 body with no chakra...


Didn't gedo have like 7 bijuu in it ? 



> Gedo's arm did more of the force, as if his arm wasn't strong enough (if he relied on his torso) it would have buckled. He stopped those things in their tracks and had little to no struggle.
> 
> *A single Juubi tail that has nature/Bjuu chakra >>> Sealed Gedo Statue.*


I'll need to ask evidence for this.
Because seems to me that this is absolutely based on nothing.



> No I am not. His acceleration is only going to increase his force because his mass stays the same. The force he has in V2 is not busting through kaiten, or remotely comparable to a Bjuu
> Tail swipe. Let's not get ridiculous her, Sakura outputs more force in her blows than Ei.


I explained this to Icegaze in my last post. A doesn't have to be as powerful as Bijuu's tail to breach Kaiten as his PIS(pressure per square inch) is alot higher.



> You realize the tails are the hallmark of Bjuu anatomy right?


The number of the tails is.



> Nothign suggest this even in the slightest. Maybe in V2 as he was able to move faster than Sasuke could turn his head (sasuke realized and mentally casted but could not physically respond in time), but not in V1 which Sasuke can canoncially outpace physically with sharingan pre cog (lee vs Sasuke example in regards to him physically moving).
> 
> V2 Ei doesn't have V2 reactions in V1 and even if he did, he still couldn't move to intercept the Kaiten.



V2 is something he can acess off the bat, you know that right ?
And his reactions are still above Minato in V1.



> You are also applying feats of thin projectiles with littel surface area towars the end of his spin, to a huge Man trying to move his body through a small space.


But that huge man is alot faster than those projectiles.



> Lmao what? That is nonsense. Neji is not facing V2 Ei here, so lets' get that off the bat. I guess 3 tomoe Sasuke is the fastest man for outmaneuvering Ei from under a meter away. Point two, Neji's is always releasing the chakra swirl, there isn't gaps for Ei to just slide through until he loses initial spin speed and even then Ei is not a long thin Rod coming from above.



Wait, is V2 restricted or something ? 



> The gaps are extremely neglible and no those gaps are not as big during the beginning part of his spin, only as be begins to slow. Had the Juubi shot one round, then he Neji would have never gotten hit.


They are not negligible from the perspective of someone with comparable or higher speed.



> Raikage is not going to encircle Neji at speeds akin to his Kaiten. Neji spun fast enough to block Juubi, and on top of it Ei cannot ring around the rose shushin, because it's not linear movement.


Neji's speed has nothing to do with blocking Juubi.

A circled behind Sasuke, that was not a linear movement. But he doesn't have to do that. 

Think of it like  this. Imagine there is a fan. It is spinning @ a certain pace. From your point of view, it seems like blur, a continous shape. But if you were fast enough, you could put your hand in between those spins right  ?
It is the same deal with Neji and A. A can actually get in between those spins with V2.



> V2 Ei's reactions are not above Minato's, and no there is absolutely no evidence of what you are trying to portray.


Base A has comparable reaction speed to Minato. So A's V1 reactions are above Minato as well.
Official Viz trans confirmed this.



> V2 Ei was not being talked about.


Why is A restricted here ? 



> V2 Ei may see the world slowly , but not by that much that Kaiten and his opponents move at matrix level speed. Minato was able to move a Kunai with his hand speed before Ei moved a couple of feet.


Thats a common misconception.
Minato flicked his wrist during the time A crossed 8-10 meters.
Also flick of a wrist can't be compared to even 2 - 3 feet movement in terms of distance covered in X amount of time.So that doesn't prove anything eitherway.



> Minato has comparable reactions and does not see the world in slow mo, he can just react to things extremely well and faster than others because of his reaction to stimuli.


For A to be able to move in V2 speeds and not get a tunnel vision, his eyes have to keep up with him.
For example if you were standing infront of a railroad and a high speed train just went passed you, probably you wouldn't be able to see the faces of the passangers inside because they'd look like a blur to you. But A actually could see them.



> what the hell?
> Ei does not moved continously...He moves in fixed, discrete amounts...The Juubi was continously firing hundreds of projectiles over multiple seconds.


Kaiten is continous movement. Thats what I meant.



> Ei would have to appear in space the same amount of times as every single Mokuton did with pure speed, and from every angle, and still have ti wait for the spin to start coming to a halt. Kaiten itself in prime form does not have human sized or even mokuton spike holes.


Or match Neji's spin speed. 



> Kaiten immediately shoots with his spin. Hence why Neji blocked Naruto's base punch when it was an inch away from his cheek.


With the speed A is moving @,  it is highly likely that he can get his fist through, especially in the initial stages.



> V1 Ei is not blitzing Hiashi or Nejo before that happens.


I am always talking about V2 here.



> Like what? Neji and Hiashi moving in a rotation before being blitzed? The people with a byakugan reacting to a linear attack from a huge muscular man? Juugo himself was able to throw up a block in time to V1 Ei, and he doesn't have a taijutsu oriented 360 vision


Despite his size, A still can move @ a speed where Minato can barely react to.
You also don't need 360 degree vision to react to an attack coming right in front of you. 
And Throwing your hands up is alot faster than executing Kaiten anyways.



Dr. White said:


> Juubi Tail > Gedo Arm
> 
> Juubi Tail >



Ok but what does this prove ?


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 10, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The whole point of that post was to show you that
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's crazy when my fan fic is supported by manga scans 

A gets slapped away by kaiten, he got a lot less chakra than juubi. Love your baseless claims though it's cute 

 FRS-worthy charge took noticeably more time

Notice 1010 comment 

So even if you can claim which u can't that A got more PIS. He got a lot less chakra and no feats to suggest he breaches kaiten 

Not when he struggled to get through small jugo meat shield . 

Unless of course one is to claim 2 jugo's could use their meat shield to slap away juubi tail . Which would be funny


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 10, 2016)

I'm not sure what people like A and Tsunade do can be characterized as skilled  just seems like they outright demolish people.

If this is anything goes then could probably just name off the end of series characters and juubi jinchurikis in a linear fashion.

Assuming speed and power are equalized and the only factor is participant movement and technique:
Killer Bee(Seven Swords)
Might Guy/Lee(no gates)
Hiashi/Neji

Honorable Mentions
Kimimaro
Itachi/Sasuke(shurikenjutsu)


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

Raikage is a skilled wrestler. Tsunade took a more _"fancy"_ approach with Naruto instead of simply demolishing him, and scored a 5 in the databook.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 10, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> V2 increases his reaction speed and thats it.
> And yes Raiton Chop > Liger bomb pound per pound.


No. V2 envigorates his nerves and his enhances his body speed via neuromuscular junctions. It increases Reaction/movement speed, I mean this is pretty obvious.

Not if you compare them in the same mode.




> There is a reason why A gave props to Minato and Naruto when they dodged his fastest punch.
> Stationary raiton chop isn't his fastest or strongest attack. Thus it packs alot less power than his V2 Shunshin punch.


Still don't see how this is helping him bust Kaiten in V1 or V2. He would get flung off like a pinball being redirected with the net force of Kaiten + his shushin.



> Didn't gedo have like 7 bijuu in it ?
> 
> 
> I'll need to ask evidence for this.
> Because seems to me that this is absolutely based on nothing.


The Gedo is a storage system, hence why it could do the same exact shit in the Hanzo fight despite not having bjuu in it. 

I'm not really going to sit here and entertain explaining why Juubi Tails are stronger than Gedo Arms. I already outlined Juubi flicking Hachibi and Kurama avatar with it's freaking Finger, it having more Bjuu chakra + Sage Ocean enhancements, and uhm idk, the whole purpose of Gedo is so that it can turn into it's superior self in the Juubi....



> I explained this to Icegaze in my last post. A doesn't have to be as powerful as Bijuu's tail to breach Kaiten as his PIS(pressure per square inch) is alot higher.


No it's not though. There is 0 proof for that.

Just cause is smaller does not mean he is packing more PSI. Chidori isn't doing jack to V3, neither would Raikage's piercing jutsu. Combined Bjuu tails completely ravaged Susanoo, and broke offf Sage Madara's arm after he was tanking hits from them individually.

The magnitude of power is on a completely different scale. Your logic only holds up with blunt force attacks with greater surface that have a net force of something generally in Ei's ballpark (even if he's > them because of his speed, and smaller surface area, example Big Chouji).



> The number of the tails is.


No, the tail is clearly still a hallmark of their anatomy. Conversly, Juubi's tails funciton similar to hands...Juubi's tails severely outpower bjuu tails.




> V2 is something he can acess off the bat, you know that right ?
> And his reactions are still above Minato in V1.


When we first started this discussion I stated Hiahsi can only beat V1 so I was inherently not talking about V2, the only thing I say V2 can't do is break Kaiten, because he can't.




> But that huge man is alot faster than those projectiles.


Ok? What about that is helping snake slide his body mid air, through a small hole? He can't stick his hand in either because you know Kaiten extends meters outward.

Plus he can only do this when Neji starts to lose spin speed and the holes occur.



> Wait, is V2 restricted or something ?


See Above.



> They are not negligible from the perspective of someone with comparable or higher speed.


Yes they are, nothing states Ei can see them in the first place. You are making that assumption that Ei sees everything in some mega slow motion. Nothing suggest that. 

you also keep neglecting to consider that Ei can only theoretically even do this if he stands there and waits for Neji to spin out. Neji is going to use Kaiten to thwart a strike or blitz, so that isn't happening.



> Neji's speed has nothing to do with blocking Juubi.


Yes it is. What do you think makes the chakra block attacks? They need to spin their chakra proportional to the force they wan't acting as their defense.

The Juubi didn't just get blocked it got sent flying meters back, which means it was completely overpowered.



> A circled behind Sasuke, that was not a linear movement. But he doesn't have to do that.


And is Ei going to ever attack like that IC if he doesn't have to dodge Amaterasu summoning on him? I think moving forward in that scenario would have been a pretty shitty idea.



> Think of it like  this. Imagine there is a fan. It is spinning @ a certain pace. From your point of view, it seems like blur, a continous shape. But if you were fast enough, you could put your hand in between those spins right  ?
> It is the same deal with Neji and A. A can actually get in between those spins with V2.


No he cannot and your analogy is invalid.
- Fan only has 3 points with inherent design for space. Kaiten is being released from all portions of Neji's Body and blending into a circle very similar to the nuke circle created by FRS (Naruto even throws FRS to function like one and block some.). 
- Ei cannot slide through the holes, until Neji is virtually done with his spin because of spatial restriction.
- The holes do not appear until Neji has been spinning for a significant time.



> Base A has comparable reaction speed to Minato. So A's V1 reactions are above Minato as well.
> Official Viz trans confirmed this.


No. C hypes Minato's reactions and then says RCM allows Ei to have synapse speed comparable/exceeding Minato's. I also don't particularly care to listen to a bodyguard hypign his superior.



> Why is A restricted here ?


My first statement was talking about V1 Ei only. rocky cat duded me, and discussion ensued. V2 ei was only relevant when concrning V2 Ei vs Kaiten as a direct argument for V1 doing it being laughable.



> Thats a common misconception.
> Minato flicked his wrist during the time A crossed 8-10 meters.
> Also flick of a wrist can't be compared to even 2 - 3 feet movement in terms of distance covered in X amount of time.So that doesn't prove anything eitherway.


Not really. Ei was only about 10 to 15m away to begin with, and Ei crossed more than half comfortably before the kunai went up.

Neji literally only has to turn his cheek enough to start up the Kaiten spin as shown in Canon.




> For A to be able to move in V2 speeds and not get a tunnel vision, his eyes have to keep up with him.
> For example if you were standing infront of a railroad and a high speed train just went passed you, probably you wouldn't be able to see the faces of the passangers inside because they'd look like a blur to you. But A actually could see them.


I know how reactions work. What I am saying is that while Ei can perceive faster and more efficiently than most, it isn't enough where can just continously move at those speeds and treat people as if they are in time stop. He is not Dio. He isn't going to be able to maneuver around the still moving chakra spin, because it's not physically possible without him being sent flying.

I don't think you are taking into consideration that Kaiten uses directional force to throw things off their trajectory and redirect them. Like trying to shoot a bullet at a steel spinning disco ball.




> Kaiten is continous movement. Thats what I meant.


okay, and I was talking about what Ei would have to acheive to wear down and find the right angle in which could slip through (if he was able to spacially) and he isn't doing that unless he got TKB and I'm unaware.




> Or match Neji's spin speed.


Or not. Naruto's punch was moving much faster than nigh stationary Neji and he got thrown back with Gusto.

Juubi's arm is fucking humoungous and was moving at high speeds (way more energy needed to move big things at high speeds) and stationary Neji/Hiashi were able to deflect it with spin speed alone.

Once again forgetting that they are emiiting chakra as a defense (outward) and spinning it to redirect and counter momentum.




> With the speed A is moving @,  it is highly likely that he can get his fist through, especially in the initial stages


.
Not at all. I don't know what you don't understand about them being able to do it an inch away from their faces, and the fact that there are no holes in the inital statement, only as it begins to slow down.





> Despite his size, A still can move @ a speed where Minato can barely react to.
> You also don't need 360 degree vision to react to an attack coming right in front of you.
> And Throwing your hands up is alot faster than executing Kaiten anyways.


- okay? Cool. How does that help him move through a spinning chakra hole that he can't physically move through?
- It certainly helps.
- Not at all which I already proved with Neji being able to use it when a punch was an inch from his face. Quick move your arm up in the air, and think a thought about teleporting, and then compare it to how fast you can slightly twitch your torso to begin a spin. Negligible stuff their bro.





> Ok but what does this prove ?


If Ei tried to punch that hit from Kyuubi his shroud would shatter and he would die. the force is on a completely different magnitude than even Sakura's punches (which have more pressure per inch than Ei). Juubi is >>> this level both chakra wise and physically.

It's really simple logic at that point.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

Raikage could literally troll Kaiten with a basic feint.


Run over to Hiashi.
Pretend to punch Hiashi.
Hiashi spins because it is his only option.
Stand there until Hiashi stops spinning.
gg

Raikage is also multiple tiers faster than Hiashi, so Hiashi's rapid spinning probably isn't all that rapid to A. Fast-moving objects can interrupt the spinning without being blown back, so Raikage could probably just spot the gap, run inside of it, and punch Hiashi in the face.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 10, 2016)

Agreed with rocky 
But that's not the same as punching through it which was Grimm claim 

And if A starts in V1 he gets himself killed 

Jugo reacting means hiashi would as well


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 10, 2016)

Judo reacted to V1 A


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> His vision is irrelevant. Hiashi is going to have to stop spinning, and A punches him in the face the moment he does.


Bullshit. You just said "Ei will _feint_ him" which implies a surprise effect.

Hiashi seeing this can take neccessary measures to counter attack, dodge or defend.



> That makes no sense whatsoever. If he can stop on a dime using his full speed, he can stop on a dime using slower speeds.


He didn't stop on a dime using his full speeds, and we already saw back in his day he had stop his momentum by jumping upwards.

You are also neglecting the fact that Kaiten has a radius of several meters, so Ei is going to have to "feint him" from outside that range, lest he get sent flying.



> He throws a basic feint to trick Hiashi into spinning, waits for him to stop spinning, and collapses his skull. La fin.


And Hiashi pulls out a bucket with black paint, draws a hole in the wall, and Ei gets sent to Kamui land. Th-th-th-th-that's all Folks!





> A is tiers above Hiashi in speed without Raiton Chakra Mode.


No he's not. V1 Ei got reacted to form under a meter physically by Sasuke. Hiashi also has a close range dojutsu which enhances perception especially at close ranges.



> He's comparable to Minato and in the roof tier. Hiashi has a 4.0. With this lightning armor?


So Hiashi the Taijutsu expert is as fast as his pre skip nephew, and slower than Diedara. Obvious time when feats, portrayal, and scaling tell us different.

Neji could beat Lee in the pre skip despite his lower gates and weightless speed as well, and Juugo straight up reacted to V1 speed.






> Neji said "I can't spin fast enough," not "I can't keep up this speed."


Do you have the Viz? 

We know for a fact Kaiten is all encompassing when spinning. They perfectly blocked the initial rounds of spikes, perfectly. Only after their spin had begun (which is when Neji makes the remark towards the end of his spin) to dwindle did _*1*_ fucking projectile of thosuands, breach his defense.

You act like we see Kaiten regularly spin for half a minute.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Judo reacted to V1 A



Did Hiashi blitz Jūgo?


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Did Hiashi blitz Jūgo?



No he doesn't need to be able to to react to A

Considering jugo could 

A is a lot faster but doesn't mean hiashi can't react . Of course he can 

Since he can he can kaiten which repells chakra , which has a chance of knocking RCM off 

Leaving A vulnerable 

I honestly don't see how it's ridiculous for A to loose if he doesn't max out of the bat


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

Would the gaps in Kaiten be small enough for Ay to attack through?

Because those Mokuton pieces were narrower than he is.


(Not that I agree Hiashi beats Ay...)


----------



## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Bullshit. You just said "Ei will _feint_ him" which implies a surprise effect.



feint |fānt|
noun

1. a deceptive or pretended blow, thrust, or other movement, especially in boxing or fencing: a brief feint at the opponent's face.



Dr. White said:


> He didn't stop on a dime using his full speeds







Dr. White said:


> You are also neglecting the fact that Kaiten has a radius of several meters, so Ei is going to have to "feint him" from outside that range, lest he get sent flying.



He will already be spinning before A gets into melee range. If Hiashi is in melee range with RCM Raikage and is not spinning, Raikage will punch him in the face before he can do anything, let alone spin in circles. 


Dr. White said:


> Ei got reacted to form under a meter physically by Sasuke. Hiashi also has a close range dojutsu which enhances perception especially at close ranges.



Sasuke using his Sharingan to anticipate Elbow has nothing to do with Hiashi. Hiashi isn't Sasuke, and the Byakugan doesn't _accelerate_ visual perception. 



Dr. White said:


> So Hiashi the Taijutsu expert is as fast as his pre skip nephew, and slower than Diedara.



Yes.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Considering jugo could



Jūgo has nothing to do with Hiashi. Now that I think about it, I can't think of anything that points towards Hiashi being able to react to A at all...


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## Icegaze (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Jūgo has nothing to do with Hiashi. Now that I think about it, I can't think of anything that points towards Hiashi being able to react to A at all...



Jugo a naturally less reactive less adept cqc fighter reacting points very much to hiashi reacting 

Denial ain't good 

Hyuuga can tell from 50m the exact direction of a projectile or person coming at them . Jugo is half mindless and could react 

Suigetsu reacted with no enhanced vision or anything 

Yh fan fic to assume hiashi can't react


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## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Jugo a naturally less reactive less adept cqc fighter reacting points very much to hiashi reacting



Sage Jūgo being less adept in close combat is baseless, and Sage Jūgo being less proficient in the art of taijutsu does not make him less reactive.


----------



## Saru (Feb 10, 2016)

Hiashi should definitely be able to react to A's regular RCM speed IMO; he wouldn't get blindsided. 

That's what the Byakugan is for.

He would be able to see the chakra that A is building up too, so with reputational knowledge he could preempt A's attack. He could plausibly prevent a full speed blitz this way too.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Would the gaps in Kaiten be small enough for Ay to attack through?



That's a good question. Probably not if only one slipped through, which is why I stopped pushing the point.



Saru said:


> Hiashi should definitely be able to react to A's regular RCM speed IMO



And what is your opinion based on?



Saru said:


> He would be able to see the chakra that A is building up too



You don't need a Byakugan for that. His chakra takes the form of a lightning aura that surrounds his body.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Sage Jūgo being less adept in close combat is baseless, and Sage Jūgo being less proficient in the art of taijutsu does not make him less reactive.



Sage Jugo has less impressive feats 

Like slapping juubi tail on 2 different occasions 



What's sage Jugo achieved . Getting stomped by V1 A

That's hardly a feat


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## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

The tails were gigantic targets that he was able to push back with extensive techniques. He did no damage to the Jūbi itself.


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## Saru (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> And what is your opinion based on?




Hype, portrayal, and logic. Hiashi with the Byakugan should be able to detect A's movements precisely, and he should have reflexes that are similar if not superior to shinobi of Taka's caliber. Feinting wouldn't work well against Hiashi's Byakugan IMO. Not only does A lack a variety of ways to feint his opponent, a Body Flicker is initiated with a chakra buildup of some sort, which Hiashi should be able to detect.




> You don't need a Byakugan for that. His chakra takes the form of a lightning aura that surrounds his body.




The Byakugan would allow Hiashi to track A's movements (i.e. feints) and preempt his explosive speed.


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## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

Tracking A's movements are not the problem. Reacting to A's movements are the problem. In regards to Kaiten, Raikage would want his feint to be tracked, so I don't know what you're going on about there. Regardless, Raikage ran up to Sage Jūgo from a dozen meters away so quickly that Jūgo barely had time to block. Since I have no reason to believe that Hiashi's reflexes are as quick as Sage Jūgo's, I think Hiashi would just die.


----------



## Saru (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Tracking A's movements are not the problem. Reacting to A's movements are the problem. In regards to Kaiten, Raikage would want his feint to be tracked, so I don't know what you're going on about there.




If he reacts to A's feint with Kaiten, he's protected from every angle, so... What's a feint going to do?




> Regardless, Raikage ran up to Sage Jūgo from a dozen meters away so quickly that Jūgo barely had time to block. Since I have no reason to believe that Hiashi's reflexes are as quick as Sage Jūgo's, I think Hiashi would just die.




He blocked at the last minute, not when A started running at him. Suigetsu saw him coming too.

***​
Like I said, I see Hiashi spinning in circles _for his life_ until he runs out steam and A punches him. But I don't think Hiashi would get straight up blitzed when he can sense the chakra build up for a Body Flicker.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

Saru said:


> If he reacts to A's feint with Kaiten, he's protected from every angle, so... What's a feint going to do?



The feint is going to make Hiashi spin. 



Saru said:


> He blocked at the last minute, not when A started running at him. Suigetsu saw him coming too.



I don't particularly care about whether or not Hiashi can see A. He needs actual speed to react to him with Kaiten, and since sagely Jūgo barely managed a simple block, Hiashi probably isn't going to be reacting to A with anything.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

How sagely is sagely Jūgo when Kabuto seemed to think that ability was relatively insignificant in comparison to Sage Mode itself? (I would think it too since Jūgo apparently got owned by Kimimaro repeatedly.)

How do we know Jūgo didn't use a power-type transformation that didn't bolster speed?


----------



## Ghoztly (Feb 10, 2016)

There is a huge difference between part one Neji and part two. For example he was only able to see up to 50m originally, in part two he could see up to *800m *

His spin obviously got better, hence the Juubi feat. In part one he learned it just in time for the exams and he didn't have full mastery over it yet IMO. 

He surpassed Hiashi in part two, at least to my knowledge I am pretty sure it said in part 2 he surpassed all other members of the clan. Correct me if I am wrong.

Unless you have an extra chakra source, if you get touched by him you're fucked. 

The Hyuga clan did get shafted but man they are underrated as fuck. CQC against them is suicide unless you're a god tier or you can unlock a truckton of gates.

How the hell are you gonna survive direct blows to your organs? It's impossible.

Neji is right after Gai IMO in taijutsu skill wise in my books.


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## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

Hm? It was Jūgo's power that Orochimaru was interested in. He just wasn't interested in the losing your mind thing. The only other way is Sage Mode. Kabuto never called Jūgo's power insignificant.


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## Icegaze (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> The tails were gigantic targets that he was able to push back with extensive techniques. He did no damage to the Jūbi itself.



Still better than what jugo has done 

Feel
Free to poll it


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Hm? It was Jūgo's power that Orochimaru was interested in. He just wasn't interested in the losing your mind thing. The only other way is Sage Mode. Kabuto never called Jūgo's power insignificant.



It was _where Jūgo's power originated from_ that Orochimaru was interested in.

Sasuke asked if he had taken Jūgo's abilities from Orochimaru's Jūinjutsu, which is simply the mix of the enzyme responsible for Jūgo's power in the first place and Orochimaru's Chakra, and at that point no rampages are caused. That obviously wasn't what Kabuto was after because Kabuto said that was temporary and then went on to specify the power he was talking about was that power he had mastered himself, which is Sage Mode, and it was only at that point which Itachi became concerned.

Jūgo is merely a pseudo-Sage, which is probably why he didn't wreck Kimimaro.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Feb 10, 2016)

If we are talking about pure taijutsu skill we should have in consideration that some of the "best taijutsu experts/masters" have that title for a combination of their pure taijutsu skill with other skills or powers, like innate speed, durability or strenght.

For example imagine equal speed, strenght and durability for Raikage and Hiruzen.

If Raikage's punch damages Hiruzen as much as Hiruzen's damages Raikage, if Raikage dodges and punches and dodges as fast as Hiruzen, who would win in h2h combat?

It's really difficult to know the best taijutsu users having only pure skill in consideration...

But yeah, Gai and Lee should be first and second for sure.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Jūgo is merely a pseudo-Sage.



No, he's a real Sage. He's even classified as a Sage in the Databook. 



			
				Databook IV said:
			
		

> Kana: 重吾 (ジュウゴ)
> Databook romanisation: JYUUGO
> 
> Village: Otogakure
> ...



Jūgo even referred to Kabuto's Senjutsu as "Sage Transformation" and noted that his own abilities were of the same type. I'm not quite sure why Jūgo's transformation would be inferior to Sage Mode when both states are the result of mixing natural energy with one's own chakra. They literally do the exact same thing. 



FlamingRain said:


> Sasuke asked if he had taken Jūgo's abilities from Orochimaru's Jūinjutsu, which is simply the mix of the enzyme responsible for Jūgo's power in the first place and Orochimaru's Chakra, and at that point no rampages are caused.



The reason the Curse Seal is only temporary is because it eats away at the mind of the user while in effect.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 10, 2016)

Lmao ITT
- Being Deceptive, or pretending to do something in order to deceive does not count as using the surprise factor.
- Diedara is more reactive and physically faster than Hiashi.
- Byakugan does not enhance Reactions
- Hiashi is not scale able Hebi Sasuke, and not even comparable to Juugo.
- Juugo's KKG is completely scalable to Sage Mode.
- Raikage blitzed Juugo from *dozens of meters*

 This is bordering on Izaya level.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

One, Deidara and Hebi Sasuke have higher speed statistics than Hiashi, who's virtually featless in speed. Scaling Hiashi to Sharingan Sasuke would be retarded. Two, the Byakugan heightens reactions by widening the visual field, not by accelerating the rate at which visual information is learned. Three, I meant "a dozen" meters.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> One, Deidara and Hebi Sasuke have higher speed statistics than Hiashi, who's virtually featless in speed. Scaling Hiashi to Sharingan Sasuke would be retarded. Two, the Byakugan heightens reactions by widening the visual field, not by accelerating the rate at which visual information is learned. Three, I meant "a dozen" meters.


A.) That's bs as Hebi sauce was a step away from blitizing Diedara himself, and would have succeeded had Sauce not wasted in a motion in trying to cut Obito down.
B.) Scaling Hiashi to Sauce would not be stupid. Neji was able to keep up and beat weightless Lee despite his vast speed advantage, and strength advantage. Neji showed extreme speed when he needed two and had some of the best pure reaction feats of pt. 1 vs Kidomaru. Hiashia given his portrayal and hype should easily be scalable to non upper gated Gai, and would give him a hell of a  run for his money with Morning Peacock, and AT banned. There is a reason Kishi chose to have *both Gai and Hiashi* absent from the Pein Arc invasion.
C.) Byakugan does enhance reactions bruh. Sharingan gives pre cognition by reading trajectory of objects and giving keen insight on motions (hence why it can copy stuff so well), the byakugan gives the user a stretched out circumfrence which all stimulus in the field is transmitted directly to their mental perception. This is why Neji was dancing around dozens of projectiles, by just hitting them, and pulling off smooth guy shit ith ease vs Kidomaru despite being at range vs a long range specialist.

Did you also forget the part where Neji wa able to extend his chakra outside of his body which automatically alerts him any stimuli which breaks the field? He did this like 3 times during the Kidomaru fight, and is what he was using to dodge those arrows.

Finally all Hyyuga get extra heightened in their Hakke circle.

Lmao Suigetsu was able to intercept Ei from Sasuke despite the latter being closer to Sasuke when in V1. Let me guess though, Hiashi shouldn't get scaling to him either


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## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Hiashi given his portrayal and hype should easily be scalable to non upper gated Gai, and would give him a hell of a  run for his money with Morning Peacock, and AT banned.



What the actual fuck?


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## Dr. White (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> What the actual fuck?


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## Saru (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> The feint is going to make Hiashi spin.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't particularly care about whether or not Hiashi can see A. He needs actual speed to react to him with Kaiten, and since sagely Jūgo barely managed a simple block, Hiashi probably isn't going to be reacting to A with anything.




You didn't even attempt to address Hiashi's ability to preempt A's Body Flicker with Byakugan.

Yet you say:




> The feint is going to make Hiashi spin.






I'm saying he'll use Kaiten; you're saying he'll use Kaiten... So what are you debating about?


----------



## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

I only brought up the feint in the first place for what would happen if A could not blitz Hiashi. But he probably can. "Preempting A with the Byakugan" doesn't make any sense. I already told you that A's chakra is visible around his body anyway. The Byakugan offers no extra advantage.


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## Icegaze (Feb 10, 2016)

Lol at least am not the only one who thinks A ain't blitzing hiashi

It's good to know 

Sage mode gives heighten reactions via sensing chakra 

Guess what byakugan does ? Picks up chakra , sees chakra . Yet for some reason hiashi is supposed to have slower reactions than suigetsu 

Omg

Byakugan users are also inherently sensors incase people didn't know . The instant A is within 50m of hiashi he will be able to tell A trajectory as A continues to run through hiashi chakra 

Till kaiten which could stop juubi


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## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

Sage Mode heightens "reactions" by heightening both speed & perceptual ability. The Byakugan doesn't actually accelerate visual perception; it widens it. What's more, it offers absolutely no boost in speed.


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## Saru (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I only brought up the feint in the first place for what would happen if A could not blitz Hiashi. But he probably can. "Preempting A with the Byakugan" doesn't make any sense. I already told you that A's chakra is visible around his body anyway. The Byakugan offers no extra advantage.





			
				First Databook said:
			
		

> Shunshin no Jutsu
> Body Flicker Technique (瞬身の術, Shunshin no Jutsu)
> Ninjutsu, D-rank, Supplementary
> Users: Gaara, Hatake Kakashi, et al
> ...




A will be within Hiashi's range of detection from the start. So when A uses chakra for a Shunshin, which Hiashi has undoubtedly seen people do with Byakugan hundreds of times, he will be able to manage.


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## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

...for the third time, A's chakra is already visible to the naked eye. The lightning energy flowing through his body is the chakra vitalization the Databook refers to. There is nothing Hiashi can "preempt" the Raikage with to save his chest from being erased by Lariat. An irrelevant side character with a modest 4.0 in speed & reflexes is not spinning in circles in response to a B-line blitz dash from a roof tier speedster Kage covered in lightning that further heightens his speed.


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## Saru (Feb 10, 2016)

If A has to "vitalize his body with chakra," before he moves, that means that Hiashi will be able to prepare a defense before A even moves.

If the massive increase in chakra flowing through him with RCM isn't enough of a clue that A's about to attack.

RCM =/= Shunshin no Jutsu. Those are two separate jutsu which A employs in combination.


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## $Kakashi$ (Feb 10, 2016)

Hiashi has no feats reacting to anything nearly has fast has A.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> No, he's a real Sage. He's even classified as a Sage in the Databook.



I wonder if you're seeing what I'm getting at.

I mean he's a pseudo-Sage insofar as the boost provided by Sage Mode is on a different scale in comparison. Orochimaru's Jūinjutsu would be just as much of the same _type_, because it is literally the same thing with Orochimaru's Chakra added. That would be why anyone compatible with it is compatible with Jūgo, why Karin said that by doing that Orochimaru was able to allow other ninja to achieve the _"same state"_, Jūgo refers to them as _"copies"_, Sasuke asks if Kabuto took Jūgo's ability from it, and Orochimaru explicitly tells Jūgo to give Sasuke some of his _"Curse Mark Sage Power"_.



> The reason the Curse Seal is only temporary is because it eats away at the mind of the user while in effect.



Not in that context. Considering Sasuke's question before and what Kabuto continued with after, it was temporary because Kabuto was after something greater in the meantime, then he could forgo it were he to choose. Jūgo's ability was more or less for Kabuto what toad-oil was for Naruto, but since it was implanted into Kabuto it could be used as if Ma and Pa were there with him.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 10, 2016)

Juugo can't balance his sage energy.  He is a sage in the same way half-toad Naruto was a sage.


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## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

Saru said:


> If A has to "vitalize his body with chakra," before he moves, that means that Hiashi will be able to prepare a defense before A even moves. If the massive increase in chakra flowing through him with RCM isn't enough of a clue that A's about to attack.



There is no defense for Hiashi to prepare. It isn't like he's got a Susanoo he can throw up. Raikage's appearance in Raiton Chakra Mode will allow Hiashi to understand that he's about to die, but that's about it.



Saru said:


> RCM =/= Shunshin no Jutsu. Those are two separate jutsu which A employs in combination.



Sprinting while in Raiton Chakra Mode would be called Shunshin. Well, Raiton: Shunshin because he's using lightning chakra to vitalize his body as opposed to normal chakra. 



FlamingRain said:


> I mean he's a pseudo-Sage insofar as the boost provided by Sage Mode is on a different scale in comparison.



Jūgo's ability _is_ Sage Mode. Sage Mode & "Sage Transformation" are both the result of blending natural energy with mind & body energies to create senjutsu chakra, and they're similar enough to where Jūgo referred to Kabuto's senjutsu as the latter ability. The enzyme _alone_ isn't what is responsible for Jūgo's power. Jūgo still has to go on to blend the natural energy that he passively collects with his chakra so that he can turn into this guy:



That guy just can't control the power, which is why that guy is completely insane. Jūgo's clan are a bunch of people that use senjutsu without training in senjutsu so that they can control it, so they're a bunch of crazy people.

I am 99.5% sure that is what Kabuto meant by "Lord Orochimaru wasn't interested in Jūgo's rampages." He was interested in the source of the rampages that caused them to become wild & powerful _because_ he didn't want to lose his mind like everybody else in Jūgo's clan.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Juugo can't balance his sage energy.  He is a sage in the same way half-toad Naruto was a sage.



Well one, half-toad Jiraiya and half-snakedragonthing Kabuto are sages. Two, if you don't balance natural energy with the other two, you don't get to use senjutsu. Since Jūgo uses senjutsu chakra to make those shields & cannons, he can balance the energies.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 10, 2016)

Oro was interested in where the natural energy they absorbed came from, because having the well is better than having some water.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

That sentence does not make any sense. The natural energy that they absorb is everywhere on the planet. It's in the ground, it's in the atmosphere...it's _nature_ energy.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Well one, half-toad Jiraiya and half-snakedragonthing Kabuto are sages. Two, if you don't balance natural energy with the other two, you don't get to use senjutsu. Since Jūgo uses senjutsu chakra to make those shields & cannons, he can balance the energies.



Jiraiya isn't half toad.  Kabuto isn't half dragon.

This is half toad Naruto.



If you don't balance toad natural energy properly, you turn into a toad, and if you're really bad you turn into a toad statue.

If you don't balance snake natural energy correctly, you go insane, and if you're really bad it turns you into a rampaging monster.  

The statue is still a sage, as is the half frog and rampaging monster, because they both utilize senjutsu, but neither is quite the same as proper sage Naruto or Kabuto.  The statue is unique in that in that it can't use jutsu outside of Senpo: Statue, due to being a statue, but it's statue is sage enhanced.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> That sentence does not make any sense. The natural energy that they absorb is everywhere on the planet. It's in the ground, it's in the atmosphere...it's _nature_ energy.



Natural energy springs from three locations, and then disseminates across the planet.  Those three places are  Mt. Myoboku, Ryuchi cave (or whatever) and Humid Bone Forest.  The three classes of natural energy they produce are all classed as natural energy and share some broad effects, but have different specific effects.  The Snake energy is the most evil, and gives power at the cost of destroying the mind if improperly performed.  The toad energy turns one into a toad or a statue.  The Slug sage energy seems to burn up the user's life force if done at less than full mastery, and we've never seen a spectacularly failed slug sage.  

My personal theory is that failed slug sages turn into slugs and become part of Katsuya, which is why she's so huge.  A boss summon composed of failed sages is spooky.  Alternately, they could become trees, which fits into the mokuton and forest themes, and mastering that sage mode could possibly grant one mokuton, which is an element powered by life force and the conversion and multiplication of one's cells.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

If you draw in too much unbalanced natural energy, you become petrified. If you draw in too little, you cannot use the arts. As long as Jūgo can use the arts, which we know he can, my point stands.

*Edit:* Natural energy didn't come from those places. Natural energy comes from the planet, which precedes Toad Mountain, Snake Cave, & Slug Forest, all places locatated on said planet. Actually, it comes from everywhere in the universe because Naruto used Sage Mode on the moon. Those places are just where senjutsu is taught. Like, do you think Hagoromo saught out that fat sage toad to learn his Jesusenjutsu?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 10, 2016)

No, your point is an over-simplification of the mechanics and ignorant of the fact that snake sage mode doesn't petrify you ever.  Aside from the paragraph about the slug/tree speculation, all I've done is quote canon in more words.  You can go ahead and say he's a sage, but he's not really comparable as a sage to the true sages, anymore than you can say post bell-test Naruto is just as much a ninja as Kakashi.  You can make that statement, but there's a gulf between what it implies and reality that shouldn't be understated.

The moon is stupid and no one thought about it because if they thought about anything they wouldn't have ninjas breathing on the moon.  They also wouldn't have had the sun be a barrier, a beam, and a genjutsu as a catch all gave the Raikage a trans-dimensional moon blasting cannon, or had base Naruto get hit with something that blew a hole straight to the other side of the planet and be okay.  Orochimaru found Ryuchi by tracing Juugo's energy signature to the point of origin.  I don't know what else to tell you.  It's a dumb series.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> all I've done is quote canon in more words.







Sadness on Wheels said:


> Natural energy springs from three locations, and then disseminates across the planet.





Sadness on Wheels said:


> The three classes of natural energy they produce are all classed as natural energy and share some broad effects, but have different specific effects.



So that was quoted from canon? 'Cause I don't remember that part. I remember Fukusaku explaining that natural energy comes from the atmosphere & terrain. Natural energy is the energy that makes nature nature.



Sadness on Wheels said:


> You can go ahead and say he's a sage, but he's not really comparable as a sage to the true sages



Why.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Jūgo's ability is Sage Mode. Sage Mode & "Sage Transformation" are both the result of blending natural energy with mind & body energies to create senjutsu chakra, and they're similar enough to where Jūgo referred to Kabuto's senjutsu as the latter ability.





Orochimaru is _not_ a true Sage Mode user and neither are any of the Jūgo replicas he produced like a factory. Or Jūgo, since the difference is simply that Jūgo's clan called it one thing and Orochimaru called it another when he experimented on it, as Orochimaru continued to call it _"Curse Mark"_ power _when used by Jūgo_ even though he was there to listen to Jūgo label it _"Sage Transformation"_.



> The enzyme _alone_ isn't what is responsible for Jūgo's power. Jūgo still has to go on to blend the natural energy that he passively collects with his chakra so that he can turn into this guy



Transformation can occur so long as you have enough natural energy.

The enzyme alone _is_ what's responsible for Jūgo's power because isolating _it_ is how Orochimaru enabled other ninja to use the _same_ state as Jūgo.


*Spoiler*: __ 



In fact that may be the case with each place that teaches sage arts, which could be why _toad-oil_ helped one draw in natural energy, as well as why Orochimaru's true form resembles the white snake sage. Orochimaru was genetically experimenting _with natural energy_, which is why upon absorbing Orochimaru Sasuke attained such a quick recovery rate- a property of Sage Mode as explained by Fukasaku. It could also explain why the once genetically one-of-a-kind Hashirama could use Sage Mode even instantaneously, while his slug-affiliated granddaughter uses some knock-off with similar tattoos.




But the fact remains that Jūgo's ability had _been_ available. It's simply lightweight in comparison to the boost people who trained to attain Sage Mode attained, which we could already tell given that Sasuke and Suigetsu rolled through a ton of Jūgo copies, Jūgo kept getting owned by Kimimaro and would have gotten owned by Sasuke alongside Suigetsu, Kimimaro was so challenged by Part 1 Gaara and the Sound 4 collectively exercising the form wouldn't have even managed to beat two Jōnin were it not for the fact that those Jōnin had recently returned from a lengthy mission.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 10, 2016)

He's the same as Orochimaru, an imperfect snake.

No I'm perfect, it's totally different.

You're being Sasuke, and I'm being Kabuto.

This used to say he traced Juugo's natural energy back to it's source.  Now it says broken English that vaguely resembles what I read.

I'm getting really annoyed that I can never find the crap I read and discussed with people when the chapters were released, and I don't have a right to criticize anyone who didn't read or doesn't exactly remember what it said from several years ago. Nor can I properly back up my interpretations when I can't point to my source because it changed, and I equally can't expect people to just take my word for it like I'm an infallible wellspring of knowledge.

EDIT:  But Flaming Rain can, because he has the beautiful Viz translations digitally archived.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 10, 2016)

lmao Tsunade really did sort of create her own sage Mode  that's pretty nifty.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> lmao Tsunade really did sort of create her own sage Mode  that's pretty nifty.



The part I liked best was that Kishi _actually_ connected it to the slug summons.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 10, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> The part I liked best was that Kishi _actually_ connected it to the slug summons.



I think I'd actually like Naruto again if Kishi made Ma and Pa Slug and showed us the details on this.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> But the fact remains that Jūgo's ability had been available.



To who? Kabuto? Kabuto did not have Orochimaru's Curse Seal, and he wouldn't have injected himself with that enzyme before mastering Senjutsu or else he'd have subjected himself to the same type of madness that Jūgo has struggled to repress since birth. Now I know what you meant by this...



FlamingRain said:


> it was temporary because Kabuto was after something greater in the meantime.



...and no, that isn't what Kabuto said. The Curse Seal _is_ a temporary boost, not was one. Also, you cannot equate all of the Curse Seal users because Sasuke & Kimimaro had "stronger" seals than any of the Sound Four did. Jūgo even said that Sasuke was the first copy of that quality he'd seen since Kimimaro.  

I don't particularly know what it is you're trying to argue. We know that Jūgo's chakra while in that form is senjutsu chakra, and his chakra levels certainly aren't lackluster in that form...so what is stopping that form from being comparable to Sage Mode, exactly?


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## Dr. White (Feb 10, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> The part I liked best was that Kishi _actually_ connected it to the slug summons.



How so? Just the tattoos?

She should have used more poison (like some snails), genjutsu, and atleast 1 element. She would have been too OP.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 10, 2016)

Katsuya is summoned from the Humid Bone Forest. 

She's also connected to the special chakra in Tsunade's seal.  Snakes and frogs only use natural energy, so slugs should too, and for that to be the case we'd get even more overlap.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> You cannot equate all of the Curse Seal users



_This_ is what I'm arguing. In that same way, Jūgo has absolutely *no* business being equated to Sage Mode users either. If Jūgo gets a boost comparable to Sage Mode users then his base stats would have to be _shiaaat_ to account for his terrible track record of getting pwned by everybody and their mama, _including_ ambiguously _"weaker"_ users of that Jūinjutsu developed by Orochimaru.

As for your question and answer at the beginning of that post. Kabuto could have acquired and implanted the enzyme without driving himself crazy like Jūgo, because we've already seen Orochimaru do it.

Why you would think there's no difference in how dramatic the effect of Jūgo's ability and those of Sage Mode users are, and yet the rampaging consequence alone can be alleviated is a mystery. It really isn't but w/e.


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## Dr. White (Feb 10, 2016)

I think there is a reason that CS2 fucks with your health, and turns you into a grey looking demon thing with extra appendages and what not. Juugo is no where near even J man


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## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> How so? Just the tattoos?



Katsuyu being able to communicate and share Chakra with the users- a real link to the slug summons.



....Actually, POW already said it.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 10, 2016)

Yes, but you say it so nicely.  So eloquent and appreciable.


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## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> If Jūgo gets a boost comparable to Sage Mode users then his base stats would have to be _shiaaat_ to account for his terrible track record of getting pwned by everybody and their mama.



Jūgo when fully transformed only got pwned by Raiton Mode A, who would do the same thing to any Sage in taijutsu. Kimimaro was said to be capable of keeping Jūgo's bloodlust in check, which could have been done without beating the shit out of him, ie Sasuke. Who else has pwned Jūgo? 

The Sages don't have these otherworldly stats. I thought Jūgo was genuinely _more_ impressive than the sages in regards to strength and durability.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

Kimimaro was said to be the one capable of keeping Jūgo in check without receiving any injuries, which means what he did was outclass Jūgo in a fight- further supported by Jūgo's familiarity with Kimimaro's skills. Sasuke did too, which is the point, and no it was not base Jūgo either considering Karin's account.

By the way .

Here is Senjutsu being referred to as the _source of_ Jūgo's power. Remember how Orochimaru was interested in  Jūgo's power. Kabuto attained it, and what it was was _Sage Mode_.

*Conclusion:* Jūgo's ability is a lightweight compared to the real deal.

Also consider how Orochimaru undid the transformation by procuring his own Chakra and yet we see Kabuto in Sage Mode again later.

Concede your point Rocky.


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## Saru (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Who else has pwned Jūgo?


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## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

You got faulty scans brah. How can I trust you now? 

Also the origin of Jūgo's power isn't Sage Mode, it's senjutsu. "Sage" is just what they call people who use senjutsu.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 10, 2016)

Concede that my memory is an infallible wellspring of knowledge.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> You got faulty scans brah. How can I trust you now?



How in the...?

You edited it trying to make me look bad. 



> Also the origin of Jūgo's power isn't Sage Mode, it's senjutsu. "Sage" is just what they call people who use senjutsu.



That really doesn't even undercut the point that there is Jūgo's ability and then there is the origin of Jūgo's ability, while what Orochimaru and Kabuto were primarily concerned with uncovering was the power at the origin, not Jūgo's own ability.

The temporary boost thing, too, honestly. Orochimaru took it back, undoing the transformation, and yet Kabuto still accessed Sage Mode again. It's the equivalent of toad-oil.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 10, 2016)

Check out Rockei trying genjutsu.  He's taken the Strategos approach even further beyond.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 10, 2016)

He surpassed those who came before him.


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## Dr. White (Feb 10, 2016)

Someone needs to save his soul with Izanami. It is fine to imitate someone you like, but do not consume his persona


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## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

I _swear_ I didn't edit it lol. I buy the viz volumes from the ibooks store, which is where that came from. I took a screenshot and resized it to fit the page, but that's the actual wording. 

I thought Orochimaru & Kabuto just wanted to avoid the rampages. You see, there is something missing.


Clan of people go crazy 'cause sage enzyme.
Jūgo come to Orochimaru from clan.
Orochimaru take enzyme from Jūgo.
Orochimaru no go crazy 'cause reasons.

I thought Kabuto didn't go crazy because he mastered Sage Mode. It was the only reason I could think of. 

But Orochimaru.


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## Rocky (Feb 10, 2016)

Also why did Kabuto steal Anko again?


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## FlamingRain (Feb 11, 2016)

The Chakra in her mark.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> He surpassed those who came before him.


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## Rocky (Feb 11, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> The Chakra in her mark.



Why use Orochimaru's shitty sage chakra to strengthen Edo Tensei instead of his own?


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## Rocky (Feb 11, 2016)

Here's that scan unshrunk. Note the sfx. Flamey attempted genjutsu, but genjutsu is no match for my RCM.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

Why did he borrow additional power when he was already using all of his own?

I wonder....  

(He was surprised it was as helpful as it was.)


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## Rocky (Feb 11, 2016)

But he wasn't in Sage Mode, so he _wasn't_ using all of his own.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 11, 2016)

Offhand I want to say so Kishi could surprise us with the dramatic reveal of Sage mode in the Brother's fight.


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## Icegaze (Feb 11, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Sage Mode heightens "reactions" by heightening both speed & perceptual ability. The Byakugan doesn't actually accelerate visual perception; it widens it. What's more, it offers absolutely no boost in speed.



I guess by your logic sound 4 have sage mode 

And jugo is comparable to SM naruto 

Lol

Jugo cursed seal was never implied to heighten reaction . Sound 4 certainly didn't get s reaction boost and they are cursed seal users 

You could claim jugo controls it better but then jugo himself doesn't even control it

How can hiashi who has better defensive hype and offensive hype and feats  not react at all yet jugo could 



Wonder where it's stated jugo got s boost in reflexes


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## StarWanderer (Feb 11, 2016)

1. Gai.
2. Ei/Bee.
3. Hidan.
4. Lee.
5. Hashirama/Madara.


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