# Seirei no Hebi Sakai Yuji (SnS) vs The Former Crimson King (SDK)



## ~Greed~ (Sep 7, 2010)

Speed is equal
PIS/CIS are off
Bloodlusted
Fight takes place in Seireiden.
How does this go?

Scenario 1: No time travel or Fuuzetsu for Yuuji, and no candle room for the FCK.

Scenario 2: Anything goes.

How does this play out?


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## Kurou (Sep 7, 2010)

Wasn't this done before? also wrong section.


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 7, 2010)

It's not the wrong section. Yuji is a novel character. 

It was done before? Hmm....

I did a google search for the thread but couldn't find anything. Unless I was the one who made it before, in which case....lol.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Sep 7, 2010)

so SnS was originally a novel?


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 7, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> so SnS was originally a novel?



Yea, a light novel actually.


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## Gundam Meister (Sep 7, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> so SnS was originally a novel?



yeah Shakugan No Shana is light novel series


Edit nija'd by Greed


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## Kurou (Sep 7, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> It's not the wrong section. Yuji is a novel character.
> 
> It was done before? Hmm....
> 
> I did a google search for the thread but couldn't find anything. Unless I was the one who made it before, in which case....lol.


I thought Light novels fell into the category of Anime/manga and since Visual novels were games they were....well you see where I'm going.


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 7, 2010)

KurouKetsu said:


> I thought Light novels fell into the category of Anime/manga and since Visual novels were games they were....well you see where I'm going.


No, Light novels are simply books, just short ones hence the "light" part. They only have a picture every chapter or so.


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## Endless Mike (Sep 7, 2010)

A lot of anime/manga is adapted from light novels, but they're a completely different medium.


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## Kurou (Sep 7, 2010)

I see. I learned something today.


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## Kirito (Sep 8, 2010)

Ohhh. I was thinking of making another one like this.

Anyway, I wouldn't know, since I don't know anything about the feats for Former Crimson King


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## Shoddragon (Sep 8, 2010)

jasper222 said:


> Ohhh. I was thinking of making another one like this.
> 
> Anyway, I wouldn't know, since I don't know anything about the feats for Former Crimson King



Well from what I recall:

He can use like.. every single technique shown in the manga, including but not limited to:

The mumyujinpuryu ( probably spelled it wrong) school including Mizuchi, Suzaki, Byakko, Genbu and Seiyruu and the fifth beast, Koryuu ( in fact, he used THREE kouryuu at the same time).

Saisei's dimension ability ( I think its a mibu tech anyway)

Candle Dimension ( banned from this match cause its so fucking cheap)

Mind Rape or something similar ( He nearly killed the ELder TOkito simply by staring at her)

Aura so powerful he can nearly kill high tiers like yukimura and benitora with it.

Strength so great he stopped Yukimura's muramasa sword with a single finger if I remember right.

 Tanked Kyoshiro's four beasts attack with no damage whatsoever.

Can absorb the other Mibu Crimson Cross puppets like chinmei and kyoshiro to power himself up.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Sep 8, 2010)

KurouKetsu said:


> I see. I learned something today.





lol

So what big power up has Yuji gotten other than the ability to crush people's necks?


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## ~Avant~ (Sep 8, 2010)

I have a question, do we use the SoF's real body in this as well?


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 8, 2010)

~Avant~ said:


> I have a question, do we use the SoF's real body in this as well?



That would just be rape in favor of Yuuji. I'd like to stick with his human-esque body for this match.



basch71 said:


> So what big power up has Yuji gotten other than the ability to crush people's necks?



this.


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## ~Avant~ (Sep 8, 2010)

No I mean use realize the SoF's enourmous snake body can actually operate seperately from Yuji. Hecate and the other members of Bal Masque freed it. So techniqually it'd equate to having a summon in the OBD.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Sep 8, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> this.





Sweet mother of god, this is the same Yuji who was struggling to even exist!?


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## ~Avant~ (Sep 8, 2010)

Yeah, he turns into quite the badass


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 8, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Sweet mother of god, this is the same Yuji who was struggling to even exist!?


Yes. pretty much..




~Avant~ said:


> Yeah, he turns into quite the badass



A psychotic badass. Or was he revealed to be not so psychotic as everyone previously believed? 



~Avant~ said:


> No I mean use realize the SoF's enourmous snake body can actually operate seperately from Yuji. Hecate and the other members of Bal Masque freed it. So techniqually it'd equate to having a summon in the OBD.



So basically something like tempa josei? I really need to catch up on my SnS novel spoilers. But no, I'm still going to ban it. If I allowed the true form of SnH then it would be a complete rape.


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

I fail to see how this was a victory for Yuuji.


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## Kurou (Sep 11, 2010)

True, I see no actual debate on the subject.


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 11, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> I fail to see how this was a victory for Yuuji.



Alright, then post up some arguments for the FCK's side. Yuuji can win through a number of ways, including:

Absorbing/eating the FCK
Dishing out more destructive force then him
Time/space stop
Multi city city busting flame blasts
Time travel to avoid attacks.
Dimension busting to break into the candle room, and to break out of Genbu if he were to get caught.
Trapping the FCK inside his silver dome and sending endless Silver monsters to attack the FCK.

Hell, the Fuuzetsu is going to be a major problem for the FCK, since the FCK would be frozen. Also, before someone brings up the candle room, it likely won't work on Yuuji anyways since his PoE is massive(closest thing he has to a soul, but even then it isn't even really a soul so it may not fall under the candle rooms abilities at all), saying the FCK can wipe out Yuuji's infinate PoE is pretty much a no limits fallacy.


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Alright, then post up some arguments for the FCK's side. Yuuji can win through a number of ways, including:
> 
> Absorbing/eating the FCK
> Dishing out more destructive force then him
> ...




FCK can do that too
FCK's willpower shattered a chunk of his Red Tower.
FCK can stop time.
Fire is useless against FCK. Yuan was casually tanking Hotaru's black flames and he is many times weaker than FCK.
Time travel won't help when your opponent shits on lightning timers.
Genbu isn't dimension, so that won't work.
FCK spams infinite blood soldiers to counter

How will he be frozen?

Really, all FCK needs to do is use Shin and mindrape him.


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Does the FCK have feats of moving during a timestrop? Also Yuuji has mindrape abilities, and mind rape defense via mind guardian



Yes, as he moved during yukimura's timestop.

What about illusions that kill you?


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 11, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> FCK can do that too


He is absorbing Yuuji? How exactly? Soulfuck is useless on Yuuji.

This is what I'm saying Yuuji can do, except Yuuji can do this instantly.

Skip to 6:35
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqlR3tzRMy8&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]
Keep in mind, this isn't soulfuck, it's just the eating of someone's existence.



> FCK's willpower shattered a chunk of his Red Tower.



And the red tower does what exactly? What makes this impressive?



> FCK can stop time.


I keep hearing about this but haven't seen proof. From what I have seen, sekireigan doesn't stop time, it just makes him faster.



> Fire is useless against FCK. Yuan was casually tanking Hotaru's black flames and he is many times weaker than FCK.



To what extent? If Yuuji were to summon SnH, the whole world would be wrapped in flames by a giant black flaming snake. And even without summoning SnH's real body, his normal flames have enough power to city bust if not more.

Even if that doesn't work, he still has Blutsauger, which when combined with infinate PoE, makes it broken beyond belief.



> Time travel won't help when your opponent shits on lightning timers.



Speed is equal here.



> Genbu isn't dimension, so that won't work.



Genbu seals people in another dimension. I believe this was stated in the Kyo vs Akari fight....not positive though.



> FCK spams infinite blood soldiers to counter



How many is infinite? I doubt it is literally infinite.


> How will he be frozen?


Fuuzetsu freezes time and space. Frozen space means the FCK isn't going anywhere.



> Really, all FCK needs to do is use Shin and mindrape him.


Yuuji has defenses against mind rape, and I believe he has mindrape abilities himself.


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> He can stop time? Time stop was never shown, Yukimura said he would show FCK a power that can stop time, however we never see him stop time using Sekireigan. Unless everyone who's ever moved while Yukimura was using Sekireigan or dodged it can also move during time-stop



Talk is a free action.



> As for illusions that can kill, they'd have to be on Multi city level to even hurt him, past that he still has mid-high regen.


No, The FCK just has to show you the illusion, and you die.

Here's Kyo using it:
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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> He is absorbing Yuuji? How exactly? Soulfuck is useless on Yuuji.
> 
> This is what I'm saying Yuuji can do, except Yuuji can do this instantly.
> 
> ...




Right, so either can't soulfuck.

The red tower is the home of the FCK, which extends into space. FCK blew a noticeable chunk out of it. Hell, he tore the whole tower down while he was dying.

It's in the other translation of it. Anri explains to Yukimura that it allows him to stop time.

black fire is describe to to be the hotter than the hottest, whitest flames. It's hot enough to evaporate stone. 

Which does what?

Won't help as Sekireigan allows the user to increase speed as well. FCK can also slow him down with intense gravity.

Nah, it seals them with something else.

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A single tiny drop of blood crated enough blood soldiers to fill the mibu lands. They would have spilled out into the world if the Tokugawa hadn't contained them.

time stop isn't working on him.

Ok, they cancel each other out.


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> He did use an illusion but it was not the illusion that killed him, He swung his sword probably fast enough to create a vacuum, a strong enough one to make blood pulse out of all his orifices.
> 
> But fine lets play along with the killing illusion idea. How's it going to work on what is a empty human shell being powered by PoE?



Uhh...no. You see the sword cut right through him, yet it does nothing. It was an illusion.

It kills him?


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Link removed
> 
> Read this scan again especially what Kyo says, your wrong.



official translations:

Kyo: Weren't you listening? The moment you saw Shin you'd already lost. Even now, the blood drips down your face.


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> That doesn't make sense as blood had yet to start coming out



So? That's the official translations. He's basically telling White Crow he's already dead.


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> 1) Character statements are not accepted when we have visuals that negate said statements
> 
> 2) Blut Sauger cuts someone even if they dodge or parry
> 
> ...



1. And? You're saying someone who invented the technique is wrong just because you never see it due to the view always being from the victim's?




2. So? FCK is immortal. You can cut him all you want. Also, that sounds like no limit fallacies. What's the fastest it's cut?

3. Yes, because she's clearly in a different dimension even though she's in the same spot.

4. No one has dodged his attacks except the FCK, and that's because he can stop time as well. The talking and moving thing?


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> so it's the official translation, it still doesn't have Kyo saying, "I killed you with my illusion" what it could easily be intepreted as is, "You were trapped in my illusion and during that time I killed you."



Except we never see Kyo attack him during the illusion. Also, Kyo has no otehr attack that does that, as his only otehr technique at the time was Mizuchi.


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 11, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Right, so either can't soulfuck.


Why can't Yuuji eat his existence again?



> The red tower is the home of the FCK, which extends into space. FCK blew a noticeable chunk out of it. Hell, he tore the whole tower down while he was dying.



Scans of the red tower which shows it's size? I just want to judge the feat for myself.



> It's in the other translation of it. Anri explains to Yukimura that it allows him to stop time.



I still need scans of it stopping time. Having multiple translations of it makes me even more doubtful it actually stops time. 



> black fire is describe to to be the hotter than the hottest, whitest flames. It's hot enough to evaporate stone.



Evaporating stone isn't really impressive. Yuuji can evaporate whole cities.



> Which does what?



It cuts things even if they aren't touched by the blade. It cuts more or less depending on how much PoE is put into it. With Yuuji's massive PoE, it would do nothing less then hack his opponent to tiny tiny pieces.



> Won't help as Sekireigan allows the user to increase speed as well. FCK can also slow him down with intense gravity.



How much does the Sekireigan increase speed? Moreover, the FCK can't fky can he? What's stopping Yuuji from a few kilometers into the air and start soulfucking him?



> Nah, it seals them with something else.
> 
> Link removed
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"A place between heaven and earth". Seems like a dimension to me. Even if he were caught, he could either time travel out of it, or cut a whole in the dimension(since from the description that is given, it seems that that is what it is) and hop back to the battlefield.



> A single tiny drop of blood crated enough blood soldiers to fill the mibu lands. They would have spilled out into the world if the Tokugawa hadn't contained them.



Then Yuuji Matches the blood soldiers with His silver army.


> time stop isn't working on him.



Proof? I still haven't seen anything that indicates he can stop time. Scans would be nice. Also, stopped space is different then stopped time.

For example, Caster's(FS/N) space freeze is different then Dio Brando's The World.


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Why can't Yuuji eat his existence again?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He needs to touch him first right? Fight will be over before that distance can be crossed.

You can't eat his existence because he has a technique that does the same, and had the one who invented it as his enemy.


Red Tower
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Show me scans of that.

So it just extends range?

It's in the wiki...


> - Sekireigan ("Eye of the Wagtail"): By activating this skill, his speed will be multiplied dramatically using Godspeed, he can create illusions in the opponent's soul, create illusions to attack and defend in rapid succession, and temporarily stop time. When he first executed his eye ability, the number of hits he delivered to his opponent exceeded his opponent's rate of rapid healing and his opponent's regeneration  ability just couldn't keep up with the number of hits Yukimura delivered. This Technique was originally taught to him by the Former mibu personal guard, Anri. It derives it's power from both eyes, while Yukimura uses one, even still the power and speed it delivers is incredible.



Yet we see Akari right there.

Then those cancel each other out.

I suggest you read SDK...

Yukimura used Sekireigan on him. FCK moved while in the timestop to use his own Sekireigan.

Yukimura uses Sekireigan duplex, which is time stop within a time stop. FCK dodged Yukimura's attack casually.


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> 1 Welcome to the OBD
> 2 she doesn't say she stops time in those scans
> 
> 
> ...




Who is she?



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Because he decided to stop being an evil jackass and basically decided to kill himself.

Then he simply moves several meters away.

Look at the last scan again.

It's a trope. It's just like how someone can say several paragraphs in the time it take someone to blink. Remember that Rock Lee thing?

When did I say that?


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## Kurou (Sep 11, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> you keep forgetting speed is equal



Only for base speed. Techniques that boost speed aren't equalized.







> Timestops would still be different, not even the power of lame ass tropes can explain this.



1)This is fiction, it doesn't have to make sense.
2)Tropes are only referred to in order to help make sense of fiction. Like the outrun the fireball trope where humans outrun hypersonic explosions.


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Sorry the mangaka has a problem of drawing dudes that look like girls
> 
> 
> Read that whole chapter not a single mention of time stop, it could just be a speedblitz since the move speeds him up anyway
> ...



Explain the part where he was being skewered.

Here's the damn official translation
ANRI: Yes...with your current level of skill, you will even be able to stop time.

Sekireigan. Gravity manipulation. Speed advantage FCK.

I don't remember anything about the shell being wind.


Don't like tropes? too bad.


Almost forgot FCK has every mibu tech. Thank you Saisei for your subspace power.


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> *snip*



Don't like it? go buy the volumes.

Wall of wind was only the snakes at the beginning.


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## Kurou (Sep 11, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> of course I'm sure you have an "official translation" which skews it more to your favor.




Actually he's right. The volumes in my library describe it as a technique which stops time and increases the users speed tenfold.


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> I didn't like SDK enough to buy the tanks
> 
> Well either you concede that it's a wall of wind or a separate dimension; since you have not offered any explanation for what it is, or you stop bringing up the power



Again, the snake part was the wind.

The shell part is a barrier.

Why would I stop bringing the power up? Its' a valid technique.


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## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 11, 2010)

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Saisei a zombie that was ressurected to fight for Saishi? Saisei is not a mibu technically.  Also, FCK should not have her ability since it's something that she did to herself.


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 11, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> He needs to touch him first right? Fight will be over before that distance can be crossed.



Um, no...... Contact isn't needed. Did you not watch the video I posted? Even those fodder Rinne didn't need contact.



> You can't eat his existence because he has a technique that does the same, and had the one who invented it as his enemy.



No he doesn't. he has a candle room, which doesn't work anything like wiping out/eating a existence.


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> ...



Still not seeing any time stops. They stated it, but it doesn't look like that is what it is actually doing. It just looks like a speed increase.



> Show me scans of that.



Here is Shana, who is waaaaay weaker then Yuuji(he was toying with her in his fight) Lighting a whole city on fire. Sorry the best I can do is post the video and not novel scans since that part is untranslated (it may actually be but I'm not going through 200 pages on animesuki to find it).

Skip to 6:30 to see the city that was lifted up, and then at around 8:22 Shana lights the whole city on fire.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XsVuwhwp8Q[/YOUTUBE]

Yuuji is>>>>>>Shana in every aspect.




> So it just extends range?



No, It hits even when it doesn't hit, and can cut people from a distance when PoE is put into it.

Will reply to the rest tommarow. I'm tired, going to bed.


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## Kurou (Sep 11, 2010)

They never explained it. But being that the FCK has lived thousands of years and knows every single Mibu technique its entirely possible he developed a way to counter it.Yukimura is an excellent fighter himself so meh, he could have further developed the technique on his own.


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## Kurou (Sep 11, 2010)

Yohan Kokuchouin said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Saisei a zombie that was ressurected to fight for Saishi? Saisei is not a mibu technically.  Also, FCK should not have her ability since it's something that she did to herself.



Saishi is the one who gave her the power. She didn't always have it otherwise Saisei wouldn't have died


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## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 11, 2010)

KurouKetsu said:


> Actually he's right. The volumes in my library describe it as a technique which stops time and increases the users speed tenfold.



Which we have gone over again and again, you stop time and increase your speed tenfold, so why not attack your opponent during the time-stop?
He used it on Kyo too, not just FCK... So is Kyo immune to time stop? 

I think them saying that it stops time is more of poetry, just Hishigi saying that he can strike with the speed of light cutting through darkness


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## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 11, 2010)

KurouKetsu said:


> Saishi is the one who gave her the power. She didn't always have it otherwise Saisei wouldn't have died



Lmao, she's gone man. There's other fish in the sea... 

Saishi never showed that she could use that ability, did she?


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Um, no...... Contact isn't needed. Did you not watch the video I posted? Even those fodder Rinne didn't need contact.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So what's the range for it?

Was referring to Yuan's technique.

Posted the time stop part above.

Unfortunately lighting a city on fire is not evaporating stone.

That is confusing


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## Kurou (Sep 11, 2010)

Yohan Kokuchouin said:


> Which we have gone over again and again, you stop time and increase your speed tenfold, so why not attack your opponent during the time-stop?
> He used it on Kyo too, not just FCK... So is Kyo immune to time stop?
> 
> I think them saying that it stops time is more of poetry, just Hishigi saying that he can strike with the speed of light cutting through darkness



You could be right. But then again using Kyo as an example isn't so good. He is after all the only _True_ Mibu left which already makes him more powerful than the rest of the verse.So the technique not being that effective on him could have also made sense. Then again I haven't read SDK in sometime.





Yohan Kokuchouin said:


> Lmao, she's gone man. There's other fish in the sea...
> 
> Saishi never showed that she could use that ability, did she?



I hate fish..


saisei 


Why would Saishi need to? She couldn't die even after being Bifurcated remember? It took Akira using a below absolute zero technique to kill her which even caught her totally off guard.


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

Yohan Kokuchouin said:


> Which we have gone over again and again, you stop time and increase your speed tenfold, so why not attack your opponent during the time-stop?
> He used it on Kyo too, not just FCK... So is Kyo immune to time stop?
> 
> I think them saying that it stops time is more of poetry, just Hishigi saying that he can strike with the speed of light cutting through darkness



PIS. That and he never used it on Kyo.


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Well Yuuji has dimensional cutting, teleportation and barrier smashing so it won't work.



Remember the part where the wind also binds you?

Triple Genbu. Three sealing and three wind bind.


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## Kurou (Sep 11, 2010)

Didn't he use it on Kyo during their final fight? 

or was that yukimura who used it on him?


*goes to reread some parts.*


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## Shoddragon (Sep 11, 2010)

how is this guy getting into the candle dimension without knowing of :

1. its location
2. its existence.


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> doesn't stop him from teleporting



Sekireigan while he's trapped.


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## Crimson King (Sep 11, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> 1)We never get a range but he manages to devour something like 20 large Denizens at once
> 
> 2) That never showed timestop it showed a blitzing.



I meant the quote.

God damn 30 sec thing.


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## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Dimensional awareness
> 
> You mean while he's separated from FCK by the barrier? and what's to keep Yuuji from porting away the second the snakes close in on him?



He uses it when only the wind is trapping him.

FCK can use Sekireigan the moment he tries to teleport. And he'll know since FCK can mind read.


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## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> so here's a question since FCK can't fly what's too keep Yuuji from flying up summoning SnH and having him swallow the entire continent?
> 
> or spamming city busters until not even a cell remains of FCK.



I was going to answer no, but then I remembered Chinmei. So yes, he can fly.


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## Kurou (Sep 12, 2010)

How come nobody ever mentions the blood soldiers?


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## Kurou (Sep 12, 2010)

How many can he make? FCK can make 10,000 with one drop of blood.


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## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 12, 2010)

KurouKetsu said:


> Didn't he use it on Kyo during their final fight?
> 
> or was that yukimura who used it on him?
> 
> ...



Chapter 213: Samurai Fun

My cpu won't let me look at the scans for some dumb reason, but near the end, He clearly uses the Sekireigan on Kyo.


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## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Still what will he do against a creature big enough to wrap around the earth?



He ignores it and goes after Yuji.


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## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

Yohan Kokuchouin said:


> Chapter 213: Samurai Fun
> 
> My cpu won't let me look at the scans for some dumb reason, but near the end, He clearly uses the Sekireigan on Kyo.



Ah, that fight. 

That was Yukimura, not FCK

He was also only using the illusion part of the technique as you can see.

Then speed later to stop Kyo's Suzaku.


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## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 12, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> He uses it when only the wind is trapping him.
> 
> FCK can use Sekireigan the moment he tries to teleport. And he'll know since FCK can mind read.



Not this again... 
You never proved that he can read minds as easily as you are saying. We saw him enter the mind of an unconscious person.


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## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

Yohan Kokuchouin said:


> Not this again...
> You never proved that he can read minds as easily as you are saying. We saw him enter the mind of an unconscious person.



Muramasa waves hello at you.


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## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> He created several thousand while maintaining a magical cage, fighting shana, and talking telepatheically to 2 different people. all these events were taking place acorss town from eachother.
> 
> and then gets swallowed and abosrbed, it would be a very stupid move to ignore a god
> 
> ...



Not really, since all has to do is kill Yuji. How fast is the snake?

Kyo had mental defenses too. They did nothing about Muramasa's mind reading.


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## Kurou (Sep 12, 2010)

Yohan Kokuchouin said:


> Chapter 213: Samurai Fun
> 
> My cpu won't let me look at the scans for some dumb reason, but near the end, He clearly uses the Sekireigan on Kyo.



Link removed
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Notice how the Suzaku is gone.........




1234567890 said:


> He created several thousand while maintaining a magical cage, fighting shana, and talking telepatheically to 2 different people. all these events were taking place acorss town from eachother.




Impressive. Now do they constantly regenerate like FCK's did? Also FCK could always just use more of his blood. Even Kyo showed that his blood had Healing capabilities.


----------



## Kurou (Sep 12, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> how does that imply a time-stop, if it were Suzaku should have been at the exact same place it was when the attack started.



He destroyed it during the time stop and closed the gap to get to kyo. I thought that would be obvious.


----------



## Kurou (Sep 12, 2010)

It isn't an indefinite time stop and Kyo can make it chase you down you know.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Why would he need to detroy it if he can stop time? It would be quicker to skirt around.



Yukimura hasn't mastered the Sekireigan so he can't keep the time stop up.

He wanted to face Kyo's full power and overcome it.


----------



## Kurou (Sep 12, 2010)

Who said Kyo moved during the time stop? I'm pretty sure if he noticed his suzaku get destroyed he would have reformed it. But meh,


----------



## Kurou (Sep 12, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Actually yes they do regen, in fact they are a symbol of human longing and in order to put them down completely you either have to eat them (like yuuji did but he is the only one seen to be able to do so because he had alreaady eaten a part of the creator of silver the SnH) or destroy the sense of longing IE in this case Yuuji.




Well then I've got nothing 




> Even Yukimure noted it was a tie when we see the sword at each other's throats, if Kyo couldn't of moved it would have ended with Kyo's death.




Once again the time stop isn't indefinite. Kyo could have had enough time to put up his sword to his neck before Yukimura could deliver the killing blow.




> as for why he couldn't reform it it's because Yukimura's move increases his speed,
> 
> he didn't have enough time, but to move his sword a foot or two. to make it a tie.



Kyo has incredible speed with his sword. He managed to beat a master of  Iaido without a sheath and even let him draw first. Moving his blade up a few meters in a short time shouldn't be that hard for him.


----------



## Kurou (Sep 12, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Normally I would agree with this but Yukimura has consistently been as fast as Kyo if not faster than him for the entire series. Add his speed x10 (that's how much it gets boosted right?) and he's gonna be blitzing Kyo silly.



Kyo's been in a weakened and diseased body most of the series


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Sep 12, 2010)

not to mention that his soul is incompatible with it or some shit, which further hampers him

so yeah


----------



## Kurou (Sep 12, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> not to mention that his soul is incompatible with it or some shit, which further hampers him
> 
> so yeah




This as well.



1234567890 said:


> Still his special ability gives him super-super-speed which obviously puts him at least on Kyo's level again.



No not really. Kyo had completely dominated the Taishirou when he started awakening his full power. Something I doubt Yukimura could do. He then got another boost when he got his real body back, so no, it wouldn't.He even went through a power up _during_ his fight with the FCK.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Sep 12, 2010)

after Kyo got the True Red Eyes, I'd say it's pretty clear that he well exceeds Yukimura's level at that point


----------



## Kurou (Sep 12, 2010)

Shit stomping the Taishirou should have been a clear indication of that.


----------



## Shoddragon (Sep 12, 2010)

KurouKetsu said:


> Kyo's been in a weakened and diseased body most of the series



and dying. don't forget the disease was actually killing kyoshiro's body which kyo was in for most of the series. 

kyo's real body is a fuckton stronger than kyoshiro's body. what he was able to do to a reincarnated nobunaga oda in his real body compared to kyoshiro's body was outright ridiculous.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Sep 12, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Sekireigan while he's trapped.



Yuuji can reverse time to avoid capture. So no.



KurouKetsu said:


> How many can he make? FCK can make 10,000 with one drop of blood.



A army's worth. He hasn't really shown a limit. The silver army is also immortal and they are each as strong as a crimson denizen.



Crimson King said:


> He ignores it and goes after Yuji.



Wait what? Why would Seirei no Hebi go after Yuuji? They are partners. Besides, SnH can wrap around the whole world, and can easily destroy continents. The FCK Dies as soon as Seirei No Hebi is summoned.



Crimson King said:


> Not really, since all has to do is kill Yuji. How fast is the snake?


What does speed matter, he is a Giant flaming snake that is big enough to wrap around the whole world. FCK is dying just by being near him. Though he is likely hypersonic anyways. If not faster simply because of his size.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Yuuji can reverse time to avoid capture. So no.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Then FCK has nothing to worry about. He can avoid it easily.

Can Yuji go back in time during a time stop?


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Does FCK have a multi city buster, because unless Yuuji is atomized he'll regen PDQ, as you said the time stop is not infinite.



Time stop then eat his soul.

or Time stop and spam Kouryu.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Sep 12, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Can Yuji go back in time during a time stop?


Yes. he can function just fine in a time stop. 



Crimson King said:


> Time stop then eat his soul.



Yuuji can move in stopped time. That is literally the most basic ability of flame haze, tomogara, and rinne. Out of curiosity, can the FCK can move in frozen space? Because Yuuji always uses a fuuzetsu as he starts a fight, and Fuuzatsu freezes space and stops time.

edit - Good luck eating Yuuji's soul, since he doesn't have one iirc. Even if you were to equate power of existance with souls for some reason, it would be pretty much impossible for the FCK to eat it, since Yuuji's PoE is amost unlimited due to being fused with Seirei No Hebi.



> or Time stop and spam Kouryu.



What does Kouryu do?

And again, what's stopping Yuuji from turning the FCK into power of existence and eating him? Ive asked before, but never got a answer.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Yes. he can function just fine in a time stop.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Yes, as shown by his fight with Yukimura

Kouryu is the strongest technique used by Kyo. FCK can use it as well.

FCK being faster via Shin Red Eyes and Sekireigan. Can't hit him if he's faster.

Now, what can Yuji do about black holes?


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 12, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Fire is useless against FCK. Yuan was casually tanking Hotaru's black flames and he is many times weaker than FCK.



No limits fallacy. Are you saying he would be immune to Surtur's galaxy - busting fire attacks?



Crimson King said:


> The red tower is the home of the FCK, which extends into space. FCK blew a noticeable chunk out of it. Hell, he tore the whole tower down while he was dying.



Really all you would need to do is damage the bottom and gravity would pull the rest of it down.



1234567890 said:


> Still what will he do against a creature big enough to wrap around the earth?



Call Thor?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Sep 12, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Yes, as shown by his fight with Yukimura



That was stopped time, not frozen space.



> Kouryu is the strongest technique used by Kyo. FCK can use it as well.



No, I'm curious as to what that is going to do to Yuuji.



> FCK being faster via Shin Red Eyes and Sekireigan. Can't hit him if he's faster.



He can still soulfuck him. And Sekirei gan isn't a perm speed up. It only works for a short period of time iirc.



> ow, what can Yuji do about black holes?


Chinmei's black holes aren't real. Anything with significant enough power can break out of them as shown when Suzaku broke out of it.


And Yuuji could just Time travel out of it. Time travel is pretty hax like that.


----------



## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 12, 2010)

Greed , Kouryu is the Genbu, Suzaku, Byakko, and Seiryuu all in one attack. This action brings out the final and most powerful beast god. Basically, it summons golden wind (the heavenly dragon Kouryu) with destructive force. 

Not going to be effective in this fight in my opinion


----------



## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 12, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Not really, since all has to do is kill Yuji. How fast is the snake?
> 
> Kyo had mental defenses too. They did nothing about Muramasa's mind reading.



Muramasa said "Rather than penetrate a mind, it's actually more like...naturally receiving thoughts." He said that he naturally hears what a person is thinking of actually saying as actual speech.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> That was stopped time, not frozen space.



What's the difference here?



> No, I'm curious as to what that is going to do to Yuuji.



It's the attack that left Kyoshiro half dead with one shot. The giant beam that FCK can create three of.



> He can still soulfuck him. And Sekirei gan isn't a perm speed up. It only works for a short period of time iirc.



Then FCK uses the subspace thing.

Shin Red Eyes. Boosts as long as the user isn't half dead.



> Chinmei's black holes aren't real. Anything with significant enough power can break out of them as shown when Suzaku broke out of it.



It's still created by very dense gravity. 




> And Yuuji could just Time travel out of it. Time travel is pretty hax like that.



Stop time and use it again.



Endless Mike said:


> No limits fallacy. Are you saying he would be immune to Surtur's galaxy - busting fire attacks?



No, but the fire I saw in the clip wasn't even close to that. It just lit the city on fire.



> Really all you would need to do is damage the bottom and gravity would pull the rest of it down.



They were near the top of it though.




Yohan Kokuchouin said:


> Greed , Kouryu is the Genbu, Suzaku, Byakko, and Seiryuu all in one attack. Not going to be effective in this fight in my opinion



You didn't finish the manga did you?


----------



## Kirito (Sep 12, 2010)

I'd just like to clear this up.

FCK's Timestop = Can stop time, but not freeze space. Things suspended in midair during the time timestop is cast still fall down to the ground.

SnH's Timestop = Can stop time and space. Things suspended in midair stay there unless moved by an outside force.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Yuuji has dimensional awareness/travelling
> 
> 
> Teleport
> ...




Good for him. He still won't know about Saisei's power.


So all he can do is run away?


Proof?

It knocked over buildings set the city on fire. Still not close to black fire level.



jasper222 said:


> I'd just like to clear this up.
> 
> *FCK's Timestop = Can stop time, but not freeze space. Things suspended in midair during the time timestop is cast still fall down to the ground.*
> 
> SnH's Timestop = Can stop time and space. Things suspended in midair stay there unless moved by an outside force.



Where did you get that?


----------



## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 12, 2010)

Crimson King, when you were replying, I had edited my post. I had submitted it before I could correct it so that was my bad.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> He will be after FCK uses it


By that time he'll already have soul sucked himself or nuked himself with an attack.






> There's nothing wrong with telporting out of a black hole



And he teleports into another black hole. Mind reading is an awesome power.


> Fuuzetsu ring a bell?



Isn't that his time stop and not someone elses?





> It would had to have busted through the ground, Sabrac real form is a giant mindless worm which spanned across that entire part of the city and was deep underground, So in order for them to have killed Sabrac, Shana would had to have busted through the ground.


It broke the ground, but didn't evaporate it.


----------



## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 12, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> And he teleports into another black hole. Mind reading is an awesome power.



Muramasa said "Rather than penetrate a mind, it's actually more like...naturally receiving thoughts." He said that he naturally hears what a person is thinking of actually saying as actual speech. 		  		  		  		 		 			 				

I don't think this person will be thinking about saying that he wants to escape...


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## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

Yohan Kokuchouin said:


> Muramasa said "Rather than penetrate a mind, it's actually more like...naturally receiving thoughts." He said that he naturally hears what a person is thinking of actually saying as actual speech.
> 
> I don't think this person will be thinking about saying that he wants to escape...



Funny, I remember in the manga Muramasa was able to read everything.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Yuuji's not stupid in fact he is a very intelligent genius especially after fusing with SnH
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Intelligent =/=knowing every technique your enemy has.

And I showed you how mental defenses were useless.

So he can't use his own when otehr people are about to use it?

There's still a large difference. And if it's cooler than black fire, it's not harming FCk at all.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> True, but if it's a dimensional ability someone with dimension awareness will know something's going on
> 
> No you didn't.
> 
> ...




It's not dimension though. It's connecting their bodies so that any harm will go to the other guy instead.

Kyo has mental defenses strong enough to fight off a mindrape. Muramasa can casually read his mind. FCK is many times stronger than Muramasa.

So it's more of a separate dimension.

OK. They still do nothing to FCK people weaker than FCK has laughed it off.


----------



## Kurou (Sep 12, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> And you're comparing mortals to a god of creation for what reason?


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> What are the mechanics behind it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



this
this


Did you just call a Mibu a mere mortal 
Also, titles=jack shit

That is confusing 

It's still black fire though. Yuan is immune ot both normal fire and black fire. And he's weaker than FCK.


----------



## Kurou (Sep 12, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Considering said god creates dimension on a whim is the size of the planet and can casually devour continent, and everything it devours is turned instantly into PoE.



FCK can casually bring people back to life and he can create dimensions himself. But meh nothing on this level.


Lol what if FCK fused his heart with Yuji. That would be pretty funny.

Edit: read wrong. Thought it said he could create dimensions the size of a planet.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

KurouKetsu said:


> Lol what if FCK fused his heart with Yuji. That would be pretty funny.



So Yuji can only tie.

That's evil.

wait, That's FCK


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Considering said god creates dimension on a whim is the size of the planet and can casually devour continent, and everything it devours is turned instantly into PoE.
> 
> 
> Not really, they're just immune to it, and stopping time space is the same as stopping time, there is no difference. Since they are parallel to one another in this universe if one is stopped then so is the other.
> ...




FCK can create dimensions too. Size won't matter when it comes to mind reading.


So it's the same time stop.


Can he use time stop during a time stop though?


That would be good.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 12, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Yuuji can bring the dead back to life also Yuuji has no heart or other internal organs so tying their hearts together would be a waste of his time
> 
> 
> Those were just his summoned form feats, basically most of the feats Yuuji has were given to him from fusing with SnH, and he didn't just resist telepathy he completely blocked it out, while fighting someone and incidentally talking telepathically to someone an unknown distance away, Yuuji has become a big fan of multitasking apparently.
> ...




No, fusing FCK's heart with him is the same as tying FCK's life to his. If FCK dies, he dies as well.

So he has some resistance to telepathy? That's not mind reading though.


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## Crimson King (Sep 13, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Well Yuuji isn't even "technically alive" anyway, he dies at the very beginning of the series and becomes a flame which is an empty soul-less shell, he's a little different because he had the Reiji Maigo inside him.
> 
> it goes both ways for Margerie she can talk in your mind while reading your thoughts, hence why Yuuji shut her out.



An insane idea just came to me.

FCK resurrects him then kills them for win.

He knows that person though.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 13, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> If he could be resurected I'm sure Yuuji would have done it to himself already, humans can still be mystes' He also still has a god inside of him, the only difference would be he is "technically alive again" he could still regen from next to nothing thanks to RM



FCK has the power to resurrect though. Why wouldn't he use it to his advantage. And it's not like FCK is limited to living beings. Fubuki was able to resurrect swords.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 13, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Yeah but Thor died in his fight with Jormungund  I don't want him to have to go through that again



don't worry I doubt this thing compares. to jormungun..so  Thor will likely be roasting its corpse over a fire with herc and wolverine over some beers after the fact


----------



## Endless Mike (Sep 13, 2010)

I think he was referring to the mythological Thor


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 13, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Yuuji can resurrect people from a corpse (never had to resurect someone without a body) however he was able to resurect a Crimson Denizen from nothingness.



Then it's probably PIS he doesn't resurrect himself.


----------



## Gundam Meister (Sep 13, 2010)

because Yuji cant revive himself because the original Sakai Yuji was killed the current Sakai Yuji is torch 

A Torch (トーチ, Toochi) is a human being whose Power of Existence has been drained by a Crimson Denizen. When a human is devoured, someone, usually a Flame Haze or Denizen, will create a Torch to take their place, although for different reasons. Denizens usually wish to make their eating less noticeable, and so they are not hunted and detected. Flame Haze wish to use this to soften the sudden shift the world would undergo, and prefer to make the change gradually. There are some that wish to create Torches for personal methods, such as Friagne, who wanted to create City Devourer with many Torches.

After being created, a Torch runs on Power of Existence that its creator put in them, and returns to life as normal. A Torch slowly becomes more and more disconnected from the rest of the world as its Flame runs out, to the point where their general encounters with people every day are forgotten. A Torch is also less sociable and interactive with other people, usually just doing the main things that that person did when they were alive, and nothing more. When a Torch disappears, it and the person it replaced are completely forgotten, with the only ones remembering it being the ones that it influenced greatly or those with much power, such as Flame Hazes. The first case is very unlikely to happen, as the Torch makes no great influence on others upon becoming a Torch.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Sep 13, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> By that time he'll already have soul sucked himself or nuked himself with an attack.


Why exactly would he be hitting himself. We have already stated that mindrape is useless on Yuuji.



> And he teleports into another black hole. Mind reading is an awesome power.



Again, mind reading doesn't work on Yuuji.



> Isn't that his time stop and not someone elses?



No, He can function in anyones Fuuzetsu(time stop). Any flame haze or tomogara can move in any flame haze or tomogara's fuuzetsu (timestop)




Crimson King said:


> Then it's probably PIS he doesn't resurrect himself.



The real Yuuji is already dead at the beginning of the story. The Yuuji we know that is the main character is a torch, which is a resurected human made from what little remaining lifeforce that the real yuuji had.

If Your claiming that the FCK can resurect himself, then that isn't the case. If it were, he would have just resurected himself after he lost to Kyo.



Crimson King said:


> Good for him. He still won't know about Saisei's power.


Saisei's power is meaningless againt a guy who can eat your existence.



> So all he can do is run away?


There is nothing wrong with Teleporting himself out of danger.



> Proof?


That he can move in a timestop, that he can create timestops?

Moving in a timestop that isn't his own.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqlR3tzRMy8&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

Creating a time stop, as well as lighting the whole city on fire.


			
				From novel 16 chapter 3 said:
			
		

> Back facing the suspicious Margery, who obsessed with his true identity--
> ?Then, you are--?
> ?What is your identity.?
> And facing the suspicions of Wilhelmina, who now recognized the threat and became more alert--
> ...






> It knocked over buildings set the city on fire. Still not close to black fire level.



I don't remember Hotaru's black fire being anywhere close to city level.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 15, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Why exactly would he be hitting himself. We have already stated that mindrape is useless on Yuuji.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Forgot about this thread.

Because that's why Saisei's power does. Any attack against the FCk would be hitting yourself.

What mind rape has he resisted?

OK, can he move in a time stop during a time stop?

Except FCK wanted to die. He did a heel face turn at the end.

Do you know what Saisei's power can do?

If all you can do is run away then you're basically admitting defeat.

See above

That's because attacks in SDK are all focused and leave almost no collateral damage. Evaporating stone is much more impressive than simply burning down the city.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Sep 15, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Because that's why Saisei's power does. Any attack against the FCk would be hitting yourself.


Not if Yuuji just goes strait to eating him, which is what he normally does.



> What mind rape has he resisted?



Margery's. he blocked her out of his mind, while talking to several other characters telepathically.



> OK, can he move in a time stop during a time stop?


Did you even watch the video and read the quotes I posted? I just showed him doing just that.



> Except FCK wanted to die. He did a heel face turn at the end.



Still doesn't change the fact that he hasn't shown the ability to revive himself. Nor was it ever hinted that he could.

I could go and claim the same thing you are claiming now, since Yuuji can also revive the dead. Except I'm not since he never showed he could do that.



> Do you know what Saisei's power can do?



I know very well what Saisei's power can do. It does have it's weaknesses though, and there are ways to avoid it. Yuuji just had to stab himself when the protal opens up, it isn't exactly that hard to figure out. And again, Yuuji still eats the FCK with PoE drain. Are you even watching the video's and quotes I'm posting? Because PoE drain is broken as hell, and the FCK can't defend against it.



> If all you can do is run away then you're basically admitting defeat.



How exactly is he admitting defeat by avoiding attacks? The match is over when a character dies or if they are BFR'd. Time traveling or teleporting out of the way of a attack isn't admitting defeat.



> Evaporating stone is much more impressive than simply burning down the city.


No it isn't. Cities are made of stone, concrete, steel, other metals and such. Burning the city down is much more impressive.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 15, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Not if Yuuji just goes strait to eating him, which is what he normally does.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And the attack is going to get reflected right back at him. 

That's very different from mindrape. Being able to speaking with someone in their mind does not equal being able to turn them into a vegetable.


A time stop during a time stop. Not a time stop.


I never claimed FCK can revive himself. I said FCK could revive Yuji and then kill him for a win.


Except you don't know when the power is active. It's not as simple as "poke yourself".

Can he drain before FCK speedblitzes via Shin Red Eyes?

No. When you burn down a city, the fire only burns the burnable stuff. The fireball that broke the ground did just that. It broke open the ground. There was nothing showing it evaporated the area.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Sep 15, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> And the attack is going to get reflected right back at him.



Um, no. Saisei's power has never defended against something like that. Existence eating doesn't even require contact.

Again, watch the video's and read the quotes I posted. 



> That's very different from mindrape. Being able to speaking with someone in their mind does not equal being able to turn them into a vegetable.



No, he defended against Margery trying to read his mind. That is a form of mind rape. As far as I know, the extent of the FCK's mind rape is only mind reading as well.


I also believe Yuuji has some other mental resistance feats, as well as something called a mind guardian.



> A time stop during a time stop. Not a time stop.



It's the same thing. stopped time is stopped time. 



> I never claimed FCK can revive himself. I said FCK could revive Yuji and then kill him for a win.



Revive Yuuji......What? He may be able to revive the original human Yuuji, but what good would that do? He is just a average human. 

The Yuuji throughout the series is a torch. I already explained what a torch was earlier. He isn't reviving a torch, since he has never shown to revive something even similar to that.



> Except you don't know when the power is active. It's not as simple as "poke yourself".



Yes it is. You could see the portal open up on Seisei's body when she activate the ability. And again, that ability isn't going to matter since Yuuji can simply eat his existence. No contact required for that. He can also simply summon Seirei No Hebi, and the FCK isn't doing shit to him.



> Can he drain before FCK speedblitzes via Shin Red Eyes?


The FCK isn't going to be able to hurt him enough even if he were to attempt to speedblitz. Cutting Yuuji is useless, and likely impossible for the FCK anyways considering he can tank city busters. The FCK always has his red eyes active anyways iirc, so it's pretty much his base speed. He has never even been shown with his eyes inactive.



> No. When you burn down a city, the fire only burns the burnable stuff. The fireball that broke the ground did just that. It broke open the ground. There was nothing showing it evaporated the area.


Then even if we were to say that he is resistant to flames of that level, he still has no way to deal with the original seirei no hebi and his flames. Or the existence eating for that matter.


This is what a being who is weaker then Seirei no Hebi can do.

Skip to 6:45
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcSP8sZ9Ok4[/YOUTUBE]

yea.......


----------



## Kurou (Sep 16, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Yes it is. You could see the portal open up on Seisei's body when she activate the ability.




That's just a visual effect for the reader. You do know Akira can actually see right? So  if the portal was actually visible he would have seen it. That also ties in with the fact that a lot of the on loockers didn't know what was happening until Saisei explained it.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 16, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Um, no. Saisei's power has never defended against something like that. Existence eating doesn't even require contact.
> 
> Again, watch the video's and read the quotes I posted.
> 
> ...



It connects them so any attack made against FCK will go right back to the attacker.

Mind reading is not mindrape. Mindrape is altering someones' mind. FCK has shown mindrape when Kyo was fighting Kyoshiro.

Explain what it does.

Sekireigan act differently. You can do another time stop inside the time stop as shown by Yukimura. This basically made it so anyone that could move in the first time stop would be unable to move inside the second one.

Forget it then

Already covered by Kurouketsu.

Kyo's casual swings when half dead and in Kyoshiro's body was strong enough to take chunks out of the Red Tower. FCK is strong enough.

Red Eyes = Mibu construct eyes that FCK has on default. Shin Red Eyes = the massive buff true Mibu get.

He doesn't have to kill him. He can just got for a 10 count win.

He simply dodges. He's certainly fast enough with Shin Red Eyes activated.


----------



## Shoddragon (Sep 16, 2010)

just throwing this out there: the only true mibu in the series is the First Crimson King shown inside of kyo's sword, and Kyo's body itself. even the former crimson king was a Mibu Battle Doll albeit an extremely powerful one.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Sep 16, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> It connects them so any attack made against FCK will go right back to the attacker.



Except it only works with psychical attacks or attacks that actually touch her. Ive read the manga up to that point and even own that volume. Yuuji eating him will work just fone.



> Mind reading is not mindrape. Mindrape is altering someones' mind. FCK has shown mindrape when Kyo was fighting Kyoshiro.



Scans please.



> Explain what it does.



Mind guardian? It protects his mind from mental attacks. I'll see if I can find a trans or better explanation.



> Sekireigan act differently. You can do another time stop inside the time stop as shown by Yukimura. This basically made it so anyone that could move in the first time stop would be unable to move inside the second one.



Except that never happened. It was shown to boost Yukimura's speed up too twice as fast and create afterimages but that was about it. We were never given a explanation that you just gave in the manga. Nor was it ever hinted to have that ability.



> Already covered by Kurouketsu.



Still not working on Existance eating. Or attacks from the original SnH, who destroys cities just from being summoned.



> Kyo's casual swings when half dead and in Kyoshiro's body was strong enough to take chunks out of the Red Tower. FCK is strong enough.



The cutting the red tower isn't that impressive compared to destroying whole cities. SnH murders him, or Yuuji eats him. I mean it doesn't even take any time for Yuuji to eat him, and he has been shown to do that to 10 crimson denizens at once.



> Red Eyes = Mibu construct eyes that FCK has on default. Shin Red Eyes = the massive buff true Mibu get.



Good for him. Still doesn't chance what I was saying.


> He doesn't have to kill him. He can just got for a 10 count win.


What?



> He simply dodges. He's certainly fast enough with Shin Red Eyes activated.



Your saying he is going to dodge the SnH's attacks? How, did you see the how much damage Alastor, who is weaker then SnH did just from being summoned? All he did was breath on Fragne and the skyscraper was destroyed. Just being summoned turned buildings to ash and blew most of the city apart.

FCK isn't dodging that.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 16, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Except it only works with psychical attacks or attacks that actually touch her. Ive read the manga up to that point and even own that volume. Yuuji eating him will work just fone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



w/e








Kyo only broke out because Muramasa helped him.


Take your time

I've already posted this. It's in the official translation.

FCK move out of the aoe then.

Considering the Red Tower reaches into orbit, it is.

You don't know what Shin Red Eyes do, do you? It allowed a half-dead Kyo to completely curbstomp two people, one of which casually one-shotted him.

Disable him for 10 seconds, and win.

Yes, he's going to dodge the attacks. Shin Red Eyes boost will give him the speed easily.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Sep 16, 2010)

Crimson King said:


>



That isn't very good mind rape, It looks like it took some time to brainwash Kyo. It didn't happen instantly or anything. And not to mention that this was Kyo as a child.

I'll also ask around and see what the best feat for his mind guardian is. 



> I've already posted this. It's in the official translation.



Post the scans again please. I don't want to go through this whole thread looking for them. It isn't possible to stop time in stopped time though. That's like saying that if Yuuji cast a Fuuzetsu over a Fuuzetsu, he wouldn't be able to move, which is retarded.



> FCK move out of the aoe then.


Scans of him getting out of a multi-city or city sized attack please. The FCK isn't even going to be able to harm SnH. It took every flame haze and crimson god to take him down, and even then they could only seal him. The FCK is going to have to come and attack it at some point.



> Considering the Red Tower reaches into orbit, it is.


Scans of the feat please.



> You don't know what Shin Red Eyes do, do you? It allowed a half-dead Kyo to completely curbstomp two people, one of which casually one-shotted him.



Speed doesn't matter here since the FCK isn't putting him down. He can blitz as much as he wants, but it isn't allowing him to even cut Yuuji's skin, and not to mention that Yuuji can be vaporized and come back.



> Disable him for 10 seconds, and win.



How exactly is he going to disable him for to seconds? He can either teleport or time travel out of whatever trap that the FCK is throwing at him.

I also don't remember there being some 10 second rule in the OBD. And like I said, Yuuji can eat existences instantly.



> Yes, he's going to dodge the attacks. Shin Red Eyes boost will give him the speed easily.



was addressed above.


----------



## Kurou (Sep 16, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> That isn't very good mind rape, It looks like it took some time to brainwash Kyo. It didn't happen instantly or anything. And not to mention that this was Kyo as a child.



No it wasn't. That was in the middle of his fight with Kyoshiro. During their fight FCK started to mindfuck him and Muramasa came and helped him out of it.


----------



## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 16, 2010)

KurouKetsu said:


> No it wasn't. That was in the middle of his fight with Kyoshiro. During their fight FCK started to mindfuck him and Muramasa came and helped him out of it.



No, it was not during the middle of the fight. After Kyoshiro knocked Kyo out for the 10 count, the FCK entered his mind. That was like the end of the round 1, and FCK decided to enter his mind. 

Once Kyo broke out of it (regain consciousness), round 2 began basically. (well, maybe it was during the middle of a fight, but there was intermission lol)

But I keep saying it, it only seems like FCK can do it when someone is knocked out. He kept talking about how he wanted Kyo dead the whole fight and only entered his mind when he was knock out. Hm...


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 16, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> That isn't very good mind rape, It looks like it took some time to brainwash Kyo. It didn't happen instantly or anything. And not to mention that this was Kyo as a child.
> 
> I'll also ask around and see what the best feat for his mind guardian is.
> 
> ...




It was FCK mindraping Kyo during Kyo's fight with Kyoshiro


The official translation:  





> ANRI: Yes...with your current level of skill, you will even be able to stop time.



Also, it was shown Yukimura could do a double time stop. FCK topped him.
even though I explicitly stated that
even though I explicitly stated that
even though I explicitly stated that


Shin Red Eyes. The speed boost is easily enough.

I thought I posted the scan earlier
even though I explicitly stated that
another one
even though I explicitly stated that
even though I explicitly stated that

Casual slash from a half-dead Kyo
even though I explicitly stated that
FCK will be hurting him with each slash.



You can't doing anything to FCK if you can't hit him. FCK can even make Yuji slower by massively increasing the gravity in the area and lessening his own. 


Does he have any def against stuff like Medusa Eyes? And can he see invisible beings?

Aldo, I see that Yuji doesn't get Fuuzetsu for scenario 1. Wouldn't that give the win to FCK since he can stop time?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Sep 16, 2010)

KurouKetsu said:


> No it wasn't. That was in the middle of his fight with Kyoshiro. During their fight FCK started to mindfuck him and Muramasa came and helped him out of it.



Even if that was the case, Yuuji can do basically the same thing with Seirei no Hebi which acts as a mind guradian. A mind guardian is someone who has an alternate personality/demon/god inside of them who is willing to to protect their host's mentality, kind of like how a Bijuu will sometimes protect it's host from Tsukiyomi. In this case it would be the SnH. SnH does a muramasa and blocks out the FCK or snaps yuuji out of his hypnosis. 

And if the FCK has only shown to do that to a unconscious person, then why is it being used in this fight?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Sep 16, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> It was FCK mindraping Kyo during Kyo's fight with Kyoshiro


Replied in my quote above.



> The official translation:
> 
> Also, it was shown Yukimura could do a double time stop. FCK topped him.
> even though I explicitly stated that
> ...



And there was nothing in  there which said it was a time stop within a time stop. He used two Sekireigan, but that doesn't mean he stopped time inside stopped time. You can't stop time if time is already stopped. There is no such things is double time stop, or timestop within a timestop.

Shin Red Eyes. The speed boost is easily enough.



> I thought I posted the scan earlier
> even though I explicitly stated that
> another one
> even though I explicitly stated that
> even though I explicitly stated that



You posted those, but I'm not seeing a chuck of the red tower missing. I'm not asking about the red tower's size, I'm asking for the scans where the FCK took a chuck out of it with one of his attacks.



> Casual slash from a half-dead Kyo
> even though I explicitly stated that
> FCK will be hurting him with each slash.



Um no, That wasn't impressive at all. The was building level at most. Yuuji shrugs off building level attacks.



> You can't doing anything to FCK if you can't hit him. FCK can even make Yuji slower by massively increasing the gravity in the area and lessening his own.



I don't understand why you think that Yuuji needs to hit him to eat his existence. 

skip to 6:28 for existence eating
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCgaC8goI4U[/YOUTUBE]

Yuuji can do that instantly. The ones doing it in the video were just Rinne fodder. They weren't even tomogara.



> Does he have any def against stuff like Medusa Eyes? And can he see invisible beings?



The Medusa eyes have never worked on something like a torch. Nor has the FCK ever shown to use the Medusa eyes.

Yuuji would just regen from the ash anyways even if it did effect him. Medusa eyes also aren't working on the original SnH.



> Aldo, I see that Yuji doesn't get Fuuzetsu for scenario 1. Wouldn't that give the win to FCK since he can stop time?



Um no. Just because I banned fuuzetsu for Yuuji doesn't mean that Yuuji can't move in a timestop. It just means that Yuuji cant cast a Time stop himself. Since your claim FCK can move in a timestop it doesn't matter anyways.

Although looking at the scans you posted, it doesn't even look like sekireigan stops time. I know this was brought up before, and at that time others were thinking the same things as myself.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 16, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Even if that was the case, Yuuji can do basically the same thing with Seirei no Hebi which acts as a mind guradian. A mind guardian is someone who has an alternate personality/demon/god inside of them who is willing to to protect their host's mentality, kind of like how a Bijuu will sometimes protect it's host from Tsukiyomi. In this case it would be the SnH. SnH does a muramasa and blocks out the FCK or snaps yuuji out of his hypnosis.
> 
> And if the FCK has only shown to do that to a unconscious person, then why is it being used in this fight?




Because Muramasa has shown to be able to mindrape people who are conscious, and he is weaker than FCK. Remember when he paralyzed Kyo by messing with his mind?



~Greed~ said:


> R
> And there was nothing in  there which said it was a time stop within a time stop. He used two Sekireigan, but that doesn't mean he stopped time inside stopped time. You can't stop time if time is already stopped. There is no such things is double time stop, or timestop within a timestop.



Then explain how FCK couldn't move when Yukimura used Sekireigan again.



> Shin Red Eyes. The speed boost is easily enough.






> You posted those, but I'm not seeing a chuck of the red tower missing. I'm not asking about the red tower's size, I'm asking for the scans where the FCK took a chuck out of it with one of his attacks.



FCK hollowing the tower with his willpower
even though I explicitly stated that
even though I explicitly stated that
even though I explicitly stated that
even though I explicitly stated that






> Um no, That wasn't impressive at all. The was building level at most. Yuuji shrugs off building level attacks.



So he can shrug off attacks from a half-dead Kyo. Good for him. FCK is much stronger even without Shin Red Eyes boost.



> I don't understand why you think that Yuuji needs to hit him to eat his existence.
> 
> skip to 6:28 for existence eating
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCgaC8goI4U[/YOUTUBE]
> ...



It just looked like a soul drain thing with an aoe. FCK can move out of the way.

Also, show me how it can affect FCK. You keep saying how it works on anyone, but that's no limit fallacy. What's the strongest being it's worked on?




> The Medusa eyes have never worked on something like a torch. Nor has the FCK ever shown to use the Medusa eyes.
> 
> Yuuji would just regen from the ash anyways even if it did effect him. Medusa eyes also aren't working on the original SnH.



It's worked on inanimate objects. I turns the person to stone, then dust. It's pretty much transmutation.

FCK never used it because it's useless on people with Shin Red Eyes and anyone with Red Eyes can resist it. 




> Um no. Just because I banned fuuzetsu for Yuuji doesn't mean that Yuuji can't move in a timestop. It just means that Yuuji cant cast a Time stop himself. Since your claim FCK can move in a timestop it doesn't matter anyways.



Forget it then.




> Although looking at the scans you posted, it doesn't even look like sekireigan stops time. I know this was brought up before, and at that time others were thinking the same things as myself.



I already showed you the translation.


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 16, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Because Muramasa has shown to be able to mindrape people who are conscious, and he is weaker than FCK. Remember when he paralyzed Kyo by messing with his mind?


Scans of Muramasa mindraping please. Still doesn't change the fact that the SnH could knock Yuuji out of it.




> Then explain how FCK couldn't move when Yukimura used Sekireigan again.


Uhh..... The FCK was moving. Infact, he was blocking all of Yukimura's attacks....








> FCK hollowing the tower with his willpower
> he was blocking all of Yukimura's attacks....
> he was blocking all of Yukimura's attacks....
> he was blocking all of Yukimura's attacks....
> he was blocking all of Yukimura's attacks....


All it looks like he did was destroy the walls and sealing. That isn't impressive at all. At least not in comparison to what Alastor did just from being summoned. Hell, Yuuji also lit the whole city in black fire just from transforming.


			
				novel 16 chapter 3 said:
			
		

> “This flame.”
> In this dusk sky, red like blood but just started to darken—Yuji's shadow burned with an aberrant “silver” color.
> *“Fuzetsu.”
> With those words, flame filled this entire area and swelled. With brutal pressure and oppressive flame, the ground was inscribed with strange patterns, and the sky above formed a half sphere.*
> ...



The area they are talking about is Masaki city.




> So he can shrug off attacks from a half-dead Kyo. Good for him. FCK is much stronger even without Shin Red Eyes boost.



Then post some scans of his strength feats. Because what you showed me wasn't impressive.



> It just looked like a soul drain thing with an aoe. FCK can move out of the way.



It isn't soul drain, it's existence eating. What those rinne were eating were peoples existences themselves. People eaten like that are completely erased from reality, and are forgotten by everyone.



> Also, show me how it can affect FCK. You keep saying how it works on anyone, but that's no limit fallacy. What's the strongest being it's worked on?



Yuuji ate about 20 Crimson Denizens (at once), several flame haze, Humans and every other type of entity shown in the Shanaverse.




> It's worked on inanimate objects. I turns the person to stone, then dust. It's pretty much transmutation.


Scans of it working on inanimate objects please? Not that it matters since Yuuji can regen from being vaporized.



> FCK never used it because it's useless on people with Shin Red Eyes and anyone with Red Eyes can resist it.


Except he has never showed to have any Medusa eyes on his body. iirc, Medusa eyes slowly start to cover peoples bodies the longer a character has them. If the FCK had them them he would have been a walking eye ball.




> I already showed you the translation.


When Yukimura got the sekireigan? Again, it never said it stopped time. Show me a scan where it is clear that the FCK can move in stopped time. Or a scan which backs up the statement that said that it stopped time. Because every time the sekireigan was used the opposing character was able to move. It just boosts speed, that's it. It could be taken the same as Hishigi's light speed attack statement.

From what I remember, every character could see Yukimura moving when he used sekireigan, it just looked like he was creating doubles of himself because he was moving so fast. If it stopped time then that wouldn't be possible. They wouldn't see him moving at all, since their minds would be frozen.


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## Crimson King (Sep 16, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Scans of Muramasa mindraping please. Still doesn't change the fact that the SnH could knock Yuuji out of it.


he was blocking all of Yukimura's attacks....
he was blocking all of Yukimura's attacks....
he was blocking all of Yukimura's attacks....





> Uhh..... The FCK was moving. Infact, he was blocking all of Yukimura's attacks....




Only because FCK used Sekireigan as well.





> All it looks like he did was destroy the walls and sealing. That isn't impressive at all. At least not in comparison to what Alastor did just from being summoned. Hell, Yuuji also lit the whole city in black fire just from transforming.
> 
> The area they are talking about is Masaki city.



he hollowed the Red Tower with that.

So the summoning is destructive. That's all.







> Then post some scans of his strength feats. Because what you showed me wasn't impressive.



How about stopping attacks with his fingers and knuckle?

Link removed
Link removed
Link removed


Keep in mind both have fought Kyo and blocked his full powered swings, Kyoshiro doing it casually.





> It isn't soul drain, it's existence eating. What those rinne were eating were peoples existences themselves. People eaten like that are completely erased from reality, and are forgotten by everyone.



OK, thanks.



> Yuuji ate about 20 Crimson Denizens (at once), several flame haze, Humans and every other type of entity shown in the Shanaverse.



So the best is cannon fodder?



> Scans of it working on inanimate objects please? Not that it matters since Yuuji can regen from being vaporized.



Link removed
Link removed

And of course people's clothes disintegrate as well when they're turned to dust.



> Except he has never showed to have any Medusa eyes on his body. iirc, Medusa eyes slowly start to cover peoples bodies the longer a character has them. If the FCK had them them he would have been a walking eye ball.


Medusa Eyes are actually created and implanted. Hishigi had that many because he's using their anti-negative spell effect to fight off the Death Disease.



> When Yukimura got the sekireigan? Again, it never said it stopped time. Show me a scan where it is clear that the FCK can move in stopped time. Or a scan which backs up the statement that said that it stopped time. Because every time the sekireigan was used the opposing character was able to move. It just boosts speed, that's it. It could be taken the same as Hishigi's light speed attack statement.


Yukimura got it from Anri.

I posted the translation twice already...





> From what I remember, every character could see Yukimura moving when he used sekireigan, it just looked like he was creating doubles of himself because he was moving so fast. If it stopped time then that wouldn't be possible. They wouldn't see him moving at all, since their minds would be frozen.



Talking is a free action. SDK uses it alot. Like when someone can give a full explanation of somethnig the time it takes to swing a sword.



Apparently FCK also has TK. Never noticed that before.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Sep 16, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed


So then all it can do is stop him from moving? Not really going to do much to Yuuji. Not to mention that was a fairly early manga Kyo that was used on. Yuuji would shit on him. 

Has it ever been shown to work on something that doesn't have a human mind, or a actual tangible mind for that matter? Because if it hasn't then it isn't effecting Yuuji, who is hollow.




> Only because FCK used Sekireigan as well.



Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active. 

Unless you want to claim that somehow even characters like Sakuya and and Yuka were able to move and speak and move freely. If time were frozen that wouldn't be possible. Talking may be a free action, but it is completely impossible for characters who can't move or talk in a time stop _to move or talk._ 

All the FCK did in that scan was use Sekireigan to keep up with Yukimura.




> he hollowed the Red Tower with that.


No he didn't. He knocked out some a few stories of walls and the sealing. It wasn't even hinted that he knocked out all the walls, and we have no reason to assume that it did.



> So the summoning is destructive. That's all.


What? No. The whole city turned stayed lit on fire even after he put up a fuuzetsu and transformed. Characters that are way weaker then Yuuji can light whole cities on fire and knock skyscrapers down. Alastor, who is around the same level as the original seirei no hebi blew apart a city block by _breathing _on it. Seirei No Hebi and Alastor are far above city busters. Did you even see how huge Alastor was, and what he did just from being summoned? His body existing in the Human Realm blew apart the city. 




> How about stopping attacks with his fingers and knuckle?
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



It means he can easily tank building busters I guess. Not much of a help in this fight.




> So the best is cannon fodder?


Um, The same level as Sabrac isn't fodder..... It took the three strongest flame haze even harm Sabrac.



> Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active.
> Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active.
> 
> And of course people's clothes disintegrate as well when they're turned to dust.



Then Yuuji regenerates even if it does work. The Reiji Maigo restored his body every time he is damaged. According to another user on here, he can resist being vaporized. And once he sees it the first time he avoids it. The sekireigan has also not been shown to work on something as strong as Yuuji. Infact, it doesn't even work on the high tiers in it's own verse. 



> Medusa Eyes are actually created and implanted. Hishigi had that many because he's using their anti-negative spell effect to fight off the Death Disease.



Then this brings up another issue. It was never hinted that the FCK even had any Medusa eyes implanted in his body. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.



> Yukimura got it from Anri.



I know, which is what I just said.



> I posted the translation twice already...



What Anri said could be hyperbole, and is contradicted by fodder being able to move while Sekireigan is active.



> Talking is a free action. SDK uses it alot. Like when someone can give a full explanation of somethnig the time it takes to swing a sword.



Was addressed above.




> Apparently FCK also has TK. Never noticed that before.



Couldn't that be just because their hearts are joined together, giving the FCK control over Yuka's(I think that's her name) body?


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 16, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> So then all it can do is stop him from moving? Not really going to do much to Yuuji. Not to mention that was a fairly early manga Kyo that was used on. Yuuji would shit on him.
> 
> Has it ever been shown to work on something that doesn't have a human mind, or a actual tangible mind for that matter? Because if it hasn't then it isn't effecting Yuuji, who is hollow.



Stop him from moving and more. FCK almost convinced Kyo to die during the mindrape.

Yuji is sentient right? Then it works on him.




> Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active.
> 
> Unless you want to claim that somehow even characters like Sakuya and and Yuka were able to move and speak and move freely. If time were frozen that wouldn't be possible. Talking may be a free action, but it is completely impossible for characters who can't move or talk in a time stop _to move or talk._



Blame the writer. He uses that trope in almost every chapter.



> All the FCK did in that scan was use Sekireigan to keep up with Yukimura.



And that Yukimura can use Sekireigan again during the time stop.



> No he didn't. He knocked out some a few stories of walls and the sealing. It wasn't even hinted that he knocked out all the walls, and we have no reason to assume that it did.


See the pitch blackness? Remember what the top of the tower looked like?



> What? No. The whole city turned stayed lit on fire even after he put up a fuuzetsu and transformed. Characters that are way weaker then Yuuji can light whole cities on fire and knock skyscrapers down. Alastor, who is around the same level as the original seirei no hebi blew apart a city block by _breathing _on it. Seirei No Hebi and Alastor are far above city busters. Did you even see how huge Alastor was, and what he did just from being summoned? His body existing in the Human Realm blew apart the city.



So, the summoning is destructive and the city fell apart because of his size.




> It means he can easily tank building busters I guess. Not much of a help in this fight.


He was blocking those  with his fingers. Much more than simple building durability.




> Um, The same level as Sabrac isn't fodder..... It took the three strongest flame haze even harm Sabrac.


And what did those three do to show that they were the strongest?



> Then Yuuji regenerates even if it does work. The Reiji Maigo restored his body every time he is damaged. According to another user on here, he can resist being vaporized. And once he sees it the first time he avoids it. The sekireigan has also not been shown to work on something as strong as Yuuji. Infact, it doesn't even work on the high tiers in it's own verse.


Has he shown resistance to transmutation?




> Then this brings up another issue. It was never hinted that the FCK even had any Medusa eyes implanted in his body. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


It was a Mibu creation. FCK has mastered everything in the Mibu.



> What Anri said could be hyperbole, and is contradicted by fodder being able to move while Sekireigan is active.



Once again, author likes to use  the talk trope.




> Couldn't that be just because their hearts are joined together, giving the FCK control over Yuka's(I think that's her name) body?



And can you explain Sasuke and Benitora being TK'd? Or the stuff he blew up?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Sep 16, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Stop him from moving and more. FCK almost convinced Kyo to die during the mindrape.


And Muramasa snapped him out of it. Yuuji has 3 personalities in his head, all of which have helped him when he needed it. Johan, the Silver, and Seirei No Hebi are going to snap him out of the mindrape just like Muramasa did to Kyo.




> Yuji is sentient right? Then it works on him.



Read above. Also, a character has to show he can mindrape something that doesn't have a human brain. 



> Blame the writer. He uses that trope in almost every chapter.




You can't just go blaming it all on tropes. All your basing your judgement on is that one statement from Anri, which is likely a hyperbole, since just about every character has moved and talked when the sekireigan was active.



> And that Yukimura can use Sekireigan again during the time stop.



And it looks nothing like that. All sekireigan does is speed up a character. No character that has fought against the sekireigan has every had their time stopped. It looks to me that the FCK used his sekireigan because he needed to keep up with Yukimura, who was using a sekireigan.



> See the pitch blackness? Remember what the top of the tower looked like?



We could only see one or two of the floors destroyed. the darkness above the second floor was just author lazyness.



> So, the summoning is destructive and the city fell apart because of his size.


No, For alastor, It fell apart because of his existence and power. For Yuuji, the city lit on fire just because he cast a fuuzetsu. Are you actually claiming that the only reason the city was destroyed was because of Alastor's size?





> He was blocking those  with his fingers. Much more than simple building durability.


Then give out some feats/scans/trans or whatever that put him above building busting.




> And what did those three do to show that they were the strongest?



Margery lifted up the whole city, Shana lit the city on fire while knocking down all the surroundings, and Wilhelmina was stated to be one of the strongest.



> Has he shown resistance to transmutation?


It just turns him to ash, He can regenerate from that.



> It was a Mibu creation. FCK has mastered everything in the Mibu.



Except he has never showed Medusa eye implants. Show scans where it was shown he had the medusa eyes. I don't see why he wouldn't have used it against Kyo, since it would have atleast slowed him down. 



> Once again, author likes to use  the talk trope.


You can't just go and claim it;s a trope when fodder blatantly weren't effected by the sekireigan. They shouldn't be able to think, let alone talk or move.



> And can you explain Sasuke and Benitora being TK'd? Or the stuff he blew up?



I didn't see Sasuke and Benitora even in those scans. Looks like he used some other type of attack to blow that crap up.


----------



## Crimson King (Sep 16, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> And Muramasa snapped him out of it. Yuuji has 3 personalities in his head, all of which have helped him when he needed it. Johan, the Silver, and Seirei No Hebi are going to snap him out of the mindrape just like Muramasa did to Kyo.



You forget Kyo has resistance to mindrape as well. Does Yuji?




> Read above. Also, a character has to show he can mindrape something that doesn't have a human brain.



Easy.  Kyo. He's a Mibu.



> You can't just go blaming it all on tropes. All your basing your judgement on is that one statement from Anri, which is likely a hyperbole, since just about every character has moved and talked when the sekireigan was active.


You do know Anri is the creator of that technique. He's going to lie to a person he's trying to help?


> And it looks nothing like that. All sekireigan does is speed up a character. No character that has fought against the sekireigan has every had their time stopped. It looks to me that the FCK used his sekireigan because he needed to keep up with Yukimura, who was using a sekireigan.





Yukirmura's first use of it
Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active. 
Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active. 

They thought they stabbed him when he's already time stopped and moved away.


Yukimura using the speed part only:
Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active. 
Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active. 



Yukimura using the stop time and cutting Shindara with enough slashes to overwhem his regen.
Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active. 
Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active. 


Anri using it:
Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active. 


Yukimura using it to stop Suzaku
Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active. 
Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active. 
Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active. 
Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active. 
Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active. 
Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active. 

Yukimura using Sekireigan and FCK beating him to it:
Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active. 
Even fodder could move and talk while both characters had their sekireigan active. 





> We could only see one or two of the floors destroyed. the darkness above the second floor was just author lazyness.




I see way more than two floors. The space there alone could fit a house.


And look at this:

Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
While dying, he was still strong enough to bring down the whole Red Tower.



> No, For alastor, It fell apart because of his existence and power. For Yuuji, the city lit on fire just because he cast a fuuzetsu. Are you actually claiming that the only reason the city was destroyed was because of Alastor's size?



That's what it looked like.




> Then give out some feats/scans/trans or whatever that put him above building busting.



Already did. His finger is already taking a minimum building buster.



> Margery lifted up the whole city, Shana lit the city on fire while knocking down all the surroundings, and Wilhelmina was stated to be one of the strongest.


Do they have any spiritual defenses?



> It just turns him to ash, He can regenerate from that.



No, it turns you to stone then to ash. Show me proof he can regen from being transmuted.



> Except he has never showed Medusa eye implants. Show scans where it was shown he had the medusa eyes. I don't see why he wouldn't have used it against Kyo, since it would have atleast slowed him down.



Actually it wouldn't. It's shown to be useless on those with Shin Red Eyes.




> You can't just go and claim it;s a trope when fodder blatantly weren't effected by the sekireigan. They shouldn't be able to think, let alone talk or move.



Read above.



> I didn't see Sasuke and Benitora even in those scans. Looks like he used some other type of attack to blow that crap up.



Link removed

He was sitting there not moving.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Sep 17, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> You forget Kyo has resistance to mindrape as well. Does Yuji?


Where was it shown that Kyo has resistance to mind rape?



> Easy.  Kyo. He's a Mibu.



Anatomy-wise Mibu are pretty much the same as humans. Yuuji doesn't even have a brain.



> You do know Anri is the creator of that technique. He's going to lie to a person he's trying to help?



He may not be lying, it could just be a figure of speach. Like he is moving so fast that time is basically stopped for the people he is facing, or something like that. The story contradicts his statement.






> Yukirmura's first use of it
> here
> here
> 
> They thought they stabbed him when he's already time stopped and moved away.


It's called creating afterimages. He doesn't have to stop time to do that. It also looks like there are two translations for that timestop thing. I'm going to have my translator friend translate the page where he said it stops time.

Can you post the exact page again so that I can get it translated?



> Yukimura using the speed part only:
> here
> here
> 
> ...



It's called speedblitz. He doesn't have to stop time in order to do that. Shindara even called it "godspeed" and said nothing about timestop.



> Anri using it:
> here



Again speedblitz. He moved so fast that Yukimura couldn't see him..


> Yukimura using it to stop Suzaku
> here
> here
> here
> ...



In those scans I have no idea where you got the idea that the sekireigan stopped Suzaku. All that happened was Kyo used his strongest technique at that time Suzaku, Yukimura used his strongest technique at that time, which was sekireigan, and then it cut out to the end of the fight with both characters having eachothers swords at their necks. Time stop wasn't even hinted there.



> Yukimura using Sekireigan and FCK beating him to it:
> here
> here



All the FCK was speed blitz and create afterimages. So can the number 7 Espeda stop time now?







> I see way more than two floors. The space there alone could fit a house.



Not from what it looks like. I see two destroyed floors and a few broken walls. Nothing that impressive, or anything close to what you were claiming.



> And look at this:
> 
> here
> here
> ...


I believe EM commented on this before. All that needs to be done to do that is it to hit one floor of the tower, and all the floors above it will come down as well.




> That's what it looked like.



Yuuji did the exact same thing and he is human sized. Also, if Alastor or SnH started to swing their bodies around then it wouldn't just be cities being destroyed.



> Already did. His finger is already taking a minimum building buster.



Then what, Skycrapers buster to city block buster at best? One level up from what he was shown to shrug off.




> Do they have any spiritual defenses?


Why does that matter? I'm not claiming soulfuck or anything. They have defenses against getting their power of existance eaten though, since they are flame haze. Otherwise Tomogara would win every fight against flame haze simply by eating their existance. Yuuji seems to ignore this though, as he can eat Tomogara, Crimson Denizens, Flame haze, Crimson lords, Rinne, Humans, and pretty much everything else.  Mind you, Eating power of existance isn't soul fuck though. It is literally eating someones existance, and anyone that has their power of existence taken is erased from reality and forgotten by everyone. 




> No, it turns you to stone then to ash. Show me proof he can regen from being transmuted.


I'm not sure if he has transmutation feats. But you still haven't proved that the FCK has the Medusa eyes. It was never actually backed up in the story. The only other techniques I remember him using where the techniques that Kyo was using, the sekireigan, and a few others.



> Actually it wouldn't. It's shown to be useless on those with Shin Red Eyes.


Kyo wasn't using Shin red eyes in the beginning of their fight was he?



> He was sitting there not moving.


Good for him a I guess then. I don't understand why he wouldn't use that on Kyo.


----------



## Kurou (Sep 17, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> In those scans I have no idea where you got the idea that the sekireigan stopped Suzaku. All that happened was Kyo used his strongest technique at that time Suzaku, Yukimura used his strongest technique at that time, which was sekireigan, and then it cut out to the end of the fight with both characters having eachothers swords at their necks. Time stop wasn't even hinted there.




Lets see, Kyo used Suzaku, Yukimura used the sekireigan and destroyed the Suzaku and moved in closer to kyo which is here they tied. Usually when Suzaku is destroyed it reforms. The reason it didn't this time is because Yukimura got in close enough to deliver a killing blow to kyo. as a matter of fact most of this was already addressed.












> I believe EM commented on this before. All that needs to be done to do that is it to hit one floor of the tower, and all the floors above it will come down as well.




They were at the top of the Tower which is where FCK'S throne room is.



.








> Kyo wasn't using Shin red eyes in the beginning of their fight was he?




Doesn't matter. Kyo is a true Mibu his eyes are always active unlike the battle dolls. The same way FCK's are.


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## Crimson King (Sep 17, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Where was it shown that Kyo has resistance to mind rape?



When Kyo broke out of Muramsasa's influence.





> Anatomy-wise Mibu are pretty much the same as humans. Yuuji doesn't even have a brain.


He's sentient. That means his mind can be messed with.


> He may not be lying, it could just be a figure of speach. *Like he is moving so fast that time is basically stopped for the people he is facing, or something like that.* The story contradicts his statement.



He never mentioned anything like that.




> It's called creating afterimages. He doesn't have to stop time to do that. It also looks like there are two translations for that timestop thing. I'm going to have my translator friend translate the page where he said it stops time.



The only time Yukimura had after images was when he was fighting Kyo and Shindara.


> Can you post the exact page again so that I can get it translated?


Chapter 201, page 19 and 20?



> It's called speedblitz. He doesn't have to stop time in order to do that. Shindara even called it "godspeed" and said nothing about timestop.






> Again speedblitz. He moved so fast that Yukimura couldn't see him.



Speedblitz was the first part. That didn't work since Shindara had his regen.


Yes, because Shindara will know exactly what Yukimura's technique is 





> In those scans I have no idea where you got the idea that the sekireigan stopped Suzaku. All that happened was Kyo used his strongest technique at that time Suzaku, Yukimura used his strongest technique at that time, which was sekireigan, and then it cut out to the end of the fight with both characters having eachothers swords at their necks. Time stop wasn't even hinted there.


Explained by Kurouketsu




> All the FCK was speed blitz and create afterimages. So can the number 7 Espeda stop time now?


Why would he want to move slower? Tokito was casually becoming invisible though speed at her level 1 speed.

Does the 7th Espada have time manipulation?




> Not from what it looks like. I see two destroyed floors and a few broken walls. Nothing that impressive, or anything close to what you were claiming.


That was way more than 2 floors.



> I believe EM commented on this before. All that needs to be done to do that is it to hit one floor of the tower, and all the floors above it will come down as well.


They were near the top of the Red Tower. 





> Yuuji did the exact same thing and he is human sized. Also, if Alastor or SnH started to swing their bodies around then it wouldn't just be cities being destroyed.


Which fits the part of the summoning being destructive.



> Then what, Skycrapers buster to city block buster at best? One level up from what he was shown to shrug off.


Really, he shrugged off two Sieryu, which is a dozen Mizuchi at once each. Even if each was only building busting, that's already puts him above block level.



> Why does that matter? I'm not claiming soulfuck or anything. They have defenses against getting their power of existance eaten though, since they are flame haze. Otherwise Tomogara would win every fight against flame haze simply by eating their existance. Yuuji seems to ignore this though, as he can eat Tomogara, Crimson Denizens, Flame haze, Crimson lords, Rinne, Humans, and pretty much everything else.  Mind you, Eating power of existance isn't soul fuck though. It is literally eating someones existance, and anyone that has their power of existence taken is erased from reality and forgotten by everyone.


It sounds similar enough to soulfucking.




> I'm not sure if he has transmutation feats. But you still haven't proved that the FCK has the Medusa eyes. It was never actually backed up in the story. The only other techniques I remember him using where the techniques that Kyo was using, the sekireigan, and a few others.



Did you read the part where FCK explained how he had mastered every technique made by the Mibu? If not, here it is:
Link removed





> Kyo wasn't using Shin red eyes in the beginning of their fight was he?


Normal Red Eyes give resistance to it, and Kyo has that on permanently. And he can use Shin Red Eyes instantly, making the Medusa Eyes useless.




> Good for him a I guess then. I don't understand why he wouldn't use that on Kyo.


PIS. It's the same reason why he didn't take them seriously nor did he instantly reabsorb Kyoshiro.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Sep 17, 2010)

KurouKetsu said:


> Lets see, Kyo used Suzaku, Yukimura used the sekireigan and destroyed the Suzaku and moved in closer to kyo which is here they tied. Usually when Suzaku is destroyed it reforms. The reason it didn't this time is because Yukimura got in close enough to deliver a killing blow to kyo. as a matter of fact most of this was already addressed.



No, most of the fight was cut out. We never see the majority of the fight. We don't know how Yukimura avoided Suzaku since it wasn't shown. The fight went on much longer then what was shown, which is why Akari offered to heal Kyo's and Yukimura's wounds (Yukimura wasn't wounded before he fought Kyo). 




> They were at the top of the Tower which is where FCK'S throne room is.


Then he is a skyscraper buster. Unless you can prove that the red tower can reach into space.



> Doesn't matter. Kyo is a true Mibu his eyes are always active unlike the battle dolls. The same way FCK's are.



Normal Red eyes don't completely defend completely against the medusa eyes, as shown in the Yaun vs Hishigi fight.


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## Kurou (Sep 17, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> No, most of the fight was cut out. We never see the majority of the fight. We don't know how Yukimura avoided Suzaku since it wasn't shown. The fight went on much longer then what was shown, which is why Akari offered to heal Kyo's and Yukimura's wounds (Yukimura wasn't wounded before he fought Kyo).



That was the only logical way to avoid suzaku since like I said, once it gets destroyed it reforms even bigger than last time. Wounds? You call the scuff marks he has wounds? 









> Normal Red eyes don't completely defend completely against the medusa eyes, as shown in the Yaun vs Hishigi fight.



The battle dolls don't have red eyes unless they activate them,which he did and broke out of it.

Kyo always has red eyes so....


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 17, 2010)

KurouKetsu said:


> That was the only logical way to avoid suzaku since like I said, once it gets destroyed it reforms even bigger than last time. Wounds? You call the scuff marks he has wounds?


Except you can't go  claiming LOLtimstop when pretty much the whole fight happened off panel. Like I said, I'm going to have one of my translator buddies re-translate that page to see if it even mentions timestop. I know there are already multiple translations of that page to begin with.




> The battle dolls don't have red eyes unless they activate them,which he did and broke out of it.
> 
> Kyo always has red eyes so....


IIRC, Yaun was still effected somewhat even when they were activated.


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## Crimson King (Sep 17, 2010)

I found one of the parts that mentions time manipulation:
Link removed


And also a funny scene

Link removed


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## Kurou (Sep 17, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Except you can't go  claiming LOLtimstop when pretty much the whole fight happened off panel. Like I said, I'm going to have one of my translator buddies re-translate that page to see if it even mentions timestop. I know there are already multiple translations of that page to begin with.




what do you mean most of the fight? They started fighting, people were spectating, they used their moves and it ended in a tie.





> IIRC, Yaun was still effected somewhat even when they were activated.



Nope.


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 17, 2010)

KurouKetsu said:


> what do you mean most of the fight? They started fighting, people were spectating, they used their moves and it ended in a tie.



Uh, no. If that were the case then Yukimura wouldn't have had any scratches on him. It was blatently obvious that there was more to the fight then what was shown.




Crimson King said:


> I found one of the parts that mentions time manipulation:
> Link removed


That was pretty vague as it is. It seems like a figure of speech or hyperbole.

Der kaiser from Getbackers says he can stop time, but he he never obviously did it. It's pretty much the same case for Yukimura. Unless every single freaking SDK character, including fodder can move in a timestop. 


Again, all the sekireigan does is make the user faster.


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## Crimson King (Sep 17, 2010)

We have two characters saying it can stop time. Both know how to use it.


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## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 17, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> I found one of the parts that mentions time manipulation:
> Link removed



This sounds like a hyperbole... 

Seems more like poetry...


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## Crimson King (Sep 17, 2010)

Yohan Kokuchouin said:


> This sounds like a hyperbole...
> 
> Seems more like poetry...



So you're going to ignore the statements of two characters who use the technique and knows how it works?


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## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 17, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed



I have a question now. Are you trying to imply that this ability can work on a being with no physical body?


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## Crimson King (Sep 17, 2010)

If it's sentient, you can affect its mind.


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## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 17, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> So you're going to ignore the statements of two characters who use the technique and knows how it works?



I'm not going to ignore their comments at all. But you are ignoring the way it's worded. What Yukimura said, clearly sounds like a hyperbole. If best, he's slowing down time around his opponent and making himself faster or appear faster. 

Just like Hishigi "I will cut you with the speed of light that cuts through darkness" (something like that, but you get it.)


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## Crimson King (Sep 17, 2010)

Yohan Kokuchouin said:


> I'm not going to ignore their comments at all. But you are ignoring the way it's worded. What Yukimura said, clearly sounds like a hyperbole. If best, he's slowing down time around his opponent and making himself faster or appear faster.
> 
> Just like Hishigi "I will cut you with the speed of light that cuts through darkness" (something like that, but you get it.)



Except that wasn't Hishigi thinking. It was Julian, a swordsmith.


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## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 17, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> If it's sentient, you can affect its mind.



I understand where you are coming from, don't get me wrong. But it would still be nice to see him do this.

It's like saying FCK can do this to a incorporeal Ghost. So the Ghost is going to just stop moving? It doesn't have a physical body... You see where I am getting at? Can't tell your brain to stop what can't be stopped. You can't tell a being to die, that's already dead. (Unless he has the feats of course.)


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## Crimson King (Sep 17, 2010)

Yohan Kokuchouin said:


> I understand where you are coming from, don't get me wrong. But it would still be nice to see him do this.
> 
> It's like saying FCK can do this to a incorporeal Ghost. So the Ghost is going to just stop moving? It doesn't have a physical body... You see where I am getting at? Can't tell your brain to stop what can't be stopped. You can't tell a being to die, that's already dead. (Unless he has the feats of course.)



Thanks for mentioning ghost. He casually removed Muramasa from Kyo's mind. While Muramasa was already dead.


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## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 17, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Except that wasn't Hishigi thinking. It was Julian, a swordsmith.



But in Yukimura's case, it would still hold more credibility if his ability was shown to be able to Time Stop. At best, like I said, it looks to be more like slowing down time around the opponent. You have to also key in the fact that they mention Yukimura's speed increase. 

From what they are showing, it just seems like he's only seeming faster, because time is slowing down for a small period. Could it be this? I mean, you can still say it's Time Stop, but I'm just throwing a different theory out there because this is what it looks like.


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## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 17, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Thanks for mentioning ghost. He casually removed Muramasa from Kyo's mind. While Muramasa was already dead.



I'll give you that. He did do that. Could this help him out in this fight though? I don't really see how it's helping him, I mean I could be wrong since I don't know FCK's abilities. (Thread is too long for me to skim through it lol)


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## Crimson King (Sep 17, 2010)

Yohan Kokuchouin said:


> But in Yukimura's case, it would still hold more credibility if his ability was shown to be able to Time Stop. At best, like I said, it looks to be more like slowing down time around the opponent. You have to also key in the fact that they mention Yukimura's speed increase.
> 
> From what they are showing, it just seems like he's only seeming faster, because time is slowing down for a small period. Could it be this? I mean, you can still say it's Time Stop, but I'm just throwing a different theory out there because this is what it looks like.



Sekireigan actually has a speed increase part to it, you your theory only fits into that part.


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## Crimson King (Sep 18, 2010)

Yohan Kokuchouin said:


> I'll give you that. He did do that. Could this help him out in this fight though? I don't really see how it's helping him, I mean I could be wrong since I don't know FCK's abilities. (Thread is too long for me to skim through it lol)



If FCK can get off a mindrape, he wins this.


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## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 18, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> If FCK can get off a mindrape, he wins this.



I meant to say, I don't know FCK's opponents abilities. Lol My mistake. 

Does FCK's opponent have some resistance to mindrape? 

FCK has shown the ability to enter an unconscious mind (i mean, this was the only time he used this) and basically pull a Yuan on his opponent. 

And he should have Muramasa's ability. (however, the only problem with this is, i don't recall him hearing or seeing thoughts. Not saying he didn't, just don't recall it.)

If FCK can paralyze the guy, then FCK should be able to start spamming attacks, right?


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## Crimson King (Sep 18, 2010)

Greed mention some mind guardian that blocked out telepathy, but that' still far from resisting mindrape.


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## Kurou (Sep 18, 2010)

Yohan Kokuchouin said:


> I meant to say, I don't know FCK's opponents abilities. Lol My mistake.
> 
> Does FCK's opponent have some resistance to mindrape?
> 
> ...




Remember FCK was able to read Shinrei's mind when shinrei was in that dungeon.

He was also able to mind fuck Tokito when the taishirou gathered before him in the throne room and Tokito was thinking about what a joke he was.


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## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 18, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Greed mention some mind guardian that blocked out telepathy, but that' still far from resisting mindrape.



Just a question. If it blocked someone or something from reading his thoughts, shouldn't it be able to block someone from entering your mind? 

I think Greed said that this Yuji guy has 3 consciousness within him. I mean, if you try to shutdown one of their minds, one of the other minds can still attack the FCK right? 

The guy doesn't have a soul either.

The soul is the incorporeal essence of a person. Even if you kill the mind, if his soul is still lingering around, wouldn't he still be able to exist? Because even if you don't have a soul and still functioning, then if your mind gets fucked, wouldn't it be the same thing? I'm just asking because the two seem to be pretty connected, but with the soul just being the true essence of the person. (However, FCK surely has soul fuck abilities, and that would simply put an end to this whole contest. I think? Lol)


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## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 18, 2010)

KurouKetsu said:


> Remember FCK was able to read Shinrei's mind when shinrei was in that dungeon.
> 
> He was also able to mind fuck Tokito when the taishirou gathered before him in the throne room and Tokito was thinking about what a joke he was.



Volume 26. I just skimmed through it. 
I don't remember him reading Shinrei's mind but merely talking to him, but he clearly read Tokito's lol. (poor Tokito...)

But apparently, FCK's opponent in this thread has a guard from telepathy


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## Crimson King (Sep 18, 2010)

Yohan Kokuchouin said:


> Volume 26. I just skimmed through it.
> I don't remember him reading Shinrei's mind but merely talking to him, but he clearly read Tokito's lol. (poor Tokito...)
> 
> But apparently, FCK's opponent in this thread has a guard from telepathy



Greed said he blocked someone trying to talk to him, that's it.


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## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 18, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Greed said he blocked someone trying to talk to him, that's it.



Then maybe that's a different story.

If FCK can read the guy's thoughts then ouch... Unless his opponent has shown that he has beaten telepaths or guys with precognition, then he's out of look for surprises. (But when your bloodlusted, you aren't really reading people's thoughts. You are going for a swift, dreadful kill)

But it would still go back to the topic with the mind and the soul... since they are separate, or since the soul is the reality behind the mind. 

When FCK was in Kyo's mind, they mentioned him affecting the soul. If the guy doesn't have a soul, couldn't he still progress in the battle? (I mean if he gets one, it might be over...)


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 18, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> So you're going to ignore the statements of two characters who use the technique and knows how it works?



Again, Unless he has Feats that prove that he can stop time then he can't stop time. It's just a hyperbole and nothing more. All the Sekireigan does is make the user faster. Der Kaiser from GB said almost the exact same thing, but because he never actually proved it and made it 100% obvious he stopped time, it can't be used.



Crimson King said:


> Thanks for mentioning ghost. He casually removed Muramasa from Kyo's mind. While Muramasa was already dead.



That doesn't mean he mindraped Musamasa, he could have just "exorcised" his soul from Kyo's body. 



Crimson King said:


> Greed mention some mind guardian that blocked out telepathy, but that' still far from resisting mindrape.



Yuuji blocked that out himself, without the influence of SnH. He has 3 personalities other then his own that can function separately from him. They could protect him just as Muramasa did to Kyo. Though I still haven't seen proof that the FCK can mindrape something without a tangible mind.


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## Kurou (Sep 18, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Uh, no. If that were the case then Yukimura wouldn't have had any scratches on him. It was blatently obvious that there was more to the fight then what was shown.



Yeah, which was at the very beginning of the fight. The fight didn't start on that chapter, it started the chapter before.He was already pretty scuffed up before they even began their fight.

here
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

This is basically their fight and then it goes into the next chapter where it continues and that's when they use their final moves. Notice, this whole time Yukimura wasn't even using the Sekireigan.


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 18, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Greed said he blocked someone trying to talk to him, that's it.



No, He blocked out Margery from trying to read his mind.


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## Crimson King (Sep 18, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Again, Unless he has Feats that prove that he can stop time then he can't stop time. It's just a hyperbole and nothing more. All the Sekireigan does is make the user faster. Der Kaiser from GB said almost the exact same thing, but because he never actually proved it and made it 100% obvious he stopped time, it can't be used.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Covered by Kuroukestu

Except we clearly see Muramasa's spirit was inside the bird, not Kyo.

I still fail to see how having more than one mind would prevent him from getting mindraped.


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## Yohan Kokuchouin (Sep 18, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Covered by Kuroukestu
> 
> Except we clearly see Muramasa's spirit was inside the bird, not Kyo.
> 
> I still fail to see how having more than one mind would prevent him from getting mindraped.



Let's look at it like this: The Miroku 7 from GetBackers have 7 complete different people in one body that they all share. If you destroy one of them into pure nothingness, then they can instantly regenerate from nothingness with mind, body, and soul. It was shown that if even their souls were damaged, they could still regenerate endlessly and in perfect health. 7 minds are better than one. 

This guy has 3 people in him. Now, I don't know if his regeneration level is Miroku level, but the fact is that even if you mindrape him, you'd still have 2 other minds to deal with.  While you mindrape one, one of the other two can attack. 3 minds are better than 1. 

My question is whether or not the minds of these beings are organic. Are we dealing with organic consciousness? If not, then FCK technically should not be able to affect since they don't exist.  However, he's still dealing with 3 minds and if he targets one, the other 2 can counter-attack.


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## Crimson King (Sep 18, 2010)

Yohan Kokuchouin said:


> *snip*



Greed never mentioned any regen for sentience.


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 19, 2010)

It took a few days, but I had a friend of mine translate the pages you told me where anri said Sekireigan stops time. I actually had a few other pages translated as well. 



> Page 1
> 
> Ggh!
> 
> ...



I had all pages with anri translated, as well as the first time Yukimura used the sekireigan.

Nowhere does it mention that it stops time. The closest thing It says to that is a vauge statement about controlling time itself.


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## Crimson King (Sep 19, 2010)

It's consistent with what's mentioned later.


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 19, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> It's consistent with what's mentioned later.



So is that a concession about the time stop ability?


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## Crimson King (Sep 19, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> So is that a concession about the time stop ability?



How did you get that? I'm agreeing with the time stop.


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 19, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> How did you get that? I'm agreeing with the time stop.



Where are you getting timestop from? I just posted a trans which contradicts  that it can stop time. It just says that with that ability it can control time itself. It's a hyperbole and nothing more. Even if we were to take that statement as fact(which it isn't) we don't even know what aspects of time it can control. Post me a scan which states it can stop time, because the ones I just had translated don't say that.

The pages I had translated were from Volume 25 chapter 201, and were the pages you told me to translate.


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## Crimson King (Sep 19, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Where are you getting timestop from? I just posted a trans which contradicts  that it can stop time. It just says that with that ability it can control time itself. It's a hyperbole and nothing more. Even if we were to take that statement as fact(which it isn't) we don't even know what aspects of time it can control. Post me a scan which states it can stop time, because the ones I just had translated don't say that.
> 
> The pages I had translated were from Volume 25 chapter 201, and were the pages you told me to translate.



...No it's not hyperbole. It would actually explain some more things. Such as the part where there were multiple Yukimura and multiple FCK. And no, it wasn't after image. After images don't speak.

If it give time control then it's possible FCK and Yukimura did the Shrike thing and made temporal clones of themselves.


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 19, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> ...No it's not hyperbole. It would actually explain some more things. Such as the part where there were multiple Yukimura and multiple FCK. And no, it wasn't after image. After images don't speak.



Um, No. It's a hyperbole. Other manga have characters can make illusions that can talk as well, Bleach comes to mind, like when ichigo went bankai the first time and created afterimages that were talking to byakuya iirc, and the 7th Espeda doing the exact same thing. I believe Ban Mido from Getbackers did the same thing earlier in the manga, as did Kyouji Kagami with his mirror clones.



> If it give time control then it's possible FCK and Yukimura did the Shrike thing and made temporal clones of themselves.



It was never hinted that they made temporal clones. It's a hyperbole, how is that hard to understand? It's like cell being able to blow up the solar system, Atsumaru being as hot as the sun etc. Your basically just making up answers now.


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## Crimson King (Sep 19, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> Um, No. It's a hyperbole. Other manga have characters can make illusions that can talk as well, Bleach comes to mind, like when ichigo went bankai the first time and created afterimages that were talking to byakuya iirc, and the 7th Espeda doing the exact same thing. I believe Ban Mido from Getbackers did the same thing earlier in the manga, as did Kyouji Kagami with his mirror clones.
> 
> 
> 
> It was never hinted that they made temporal clones. It's a hyperbole, how is that hard to understand? It's like cell being able to blow up the solar system, Atsumaru being as hot as the sun etc. Your basically just making up answers now.



No it's not hyperbole. Ichigo's after images never talked. Only the real #7 talked.

Mirror clones? sounds like magic.

I'm not making up answers as there's evidence in the manga to support it.


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 20, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> No it's not hyperbole. Ichigo's after images never talked.



It is a hyperbole. Unless you have some type of proof he made temporal clones.



> Only the real #7 talked.


iirc, it seemed like they were all talking.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR5geFBxsTw[/YOUTUBE]

- edit, Yea, I was right, in the anime they were, not sure about the manga, but as you can see it's just a trope that shows off a characters speed.



> I'm not making up answers as there's evidence in the manga to support it.



What are you talking about. We never had any statements or evidence to support anything like temporal clones....

He was just moving so fast and creating so many afterimages it seemed like he was talking. Ive seen several manga characters doing this.


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## Crimson King (Sep 20, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> It is a hyperbole. Unless you have some type of proof he made temporal clones.
> 
> 
> iirc, it seemed like they were all talking.
> ...


Easy. Each form's attack did damage. That shows they're not illusions. So that rules out after images.


IIRC in the manga only the real one spoke.

Read above.


I can tell we're never going to come to an agreement.


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 20, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Easy. Each form's attack did damage. That shows they're not illusions. So that rules out after images.



The same can be said for Zommori. He is just moving so fast it seems his illusions are tangible, but in reality it is just one person stabbing someone a bunch of times.



> IIRC in the manga only the real one spoke.
> 
> Read above.



I'll check once I get back from school. Doesn't really matter anyways, since it's still a trope.



> I can tell we're never going to come to an agreement.


It seems that way. What about creating a meta thread on the matter?


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## Crimson King (Sep 20, 2010)

~Greed~ said:


> It seems that way. What about creating a meta thread on the matter?



That sounds good.


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 20, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> That sounds good.


Will do that once I get home then.


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## Kurou (Sep 20, 2010)

I say we vote instead. Voting for the Aka no Ou.


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## ~Greed~ (Sep 20, 2010)

It would be better to get the time manipulation issue sorted out before that, since that could change the direction of the match.


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## Kurou (Sep 20, 2010)

I was just joking.


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