# Fujitora Vs Doflamingo



## LyricalMessiah (Apr 16, 2015)

*Vs*



Contestants: -Fujitora- and-Doflamingo-

Distance: 40 meters

Location: in an open area enclosed within Doflamingo's Birdcage

Restrictions: Fujitora's meteor ability. 












Begin!


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 16, 2015)

Because meteors are restricted, I'd say Fujitora defeats him with mid-high difficulty. 
Fujitora is still superior in CQC and can levitate like Doflamingo, so aerial battles won't be an issue. On the ground, his gravitational powers will also be quite dangerous, racking up damage on Doffy as time passes. 

Fuji defeats him 10/10 times with obvious difficulty, and I think he'd sustain normal injuries in the process.


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## Coruscation (Apr 16, 2015)

Fujitora wipes Doflamingo out with mid diff tops. His gravitational powers are immense. Doffy will have trouble even moving properly under their effect let alone fast and effectively enough to seriously threaten Fuji. Don't kid yourself thinking he actually went 100% on poor Zoro. Imagine what it will look like when he actually goes balls to the wall all out instead.

Whatever attacks Doffy might get off will be a piece of cake to deflect between his god-level COO and no doubt elite class swordsmanship.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## trance (Apr 16, 2015)

Issho with mid difficulty. His gravity powers are likely a good counter to Doffy's strings as well as being naturally superior in most, if not all aspects.


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## BashFace (Apr 16, 2015)

Fujitora low diff. 

Simply too strong, Doflamingo too stupid


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## TheWiggian (Apr 16, 2015)

Fuji mid (low) diff, reasons are already stated.

Best arguments of course are, Fuji too stronk and Pinky too stupid.


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## Ghost (Apr 16, 2015)

Fuji low high diff/high mid diff.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Apr 16, 2015)

Fujitora high diff

DD is not that weak and Fuji is not that strong


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## Kai (Apr 16, 2015)

Fujitora mid difficulty. His fight with Sabo was still on a different level, despite neither going all out.


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## mr sean66 (Apr 16, 2015)

I think Fuji wins mid diff he will be about as exayghted as luffy was after fighting chinjao but no real injurys.

I think if doflamingo teamed with someone hax like law they would win more times than not.


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## Bernkastel (Apr 16, 2015)

Mid(high) diff for Fujitora.
His stats and haki are simply better than DD's.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 16, 2015)

At best Mid-difficulty.* AT BEST.*


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## Tenma (Apr 16, 2015)

Fuji low-high diff. DD by portrayal should be slightly above the likes of Jozu who can give Admirals a good fight.


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## ShadoLord (Apr 16, 2015)

Fujitora with mid-diff, and the meteors being restricted isn't even a problem either way as Doflamingo got birdcage against that. However, Fujitora being serious will crushed Doflamingo under his pressure of gravity+higher end gravity techniques, while most of Doflamingo's attacks will simply fail to hit Fujitora when he's got more strength and CoO better than Doflamingo's.


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## RF (Apr 16, 2015)

Fujitora without any real difficulty.

It's been established that he's in a different league.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 16, 2015)

Meth said:


> Fujitora without any real difficulty.
> 
> It's been established that he's in a different league.



When?

DD has birdcage for the meteor and he can make a clone of himself to attack from 2 opposite sides. 

He can also heal/repair himself when he needs it.

Fujitora mid(high) to high(low) diff still takes it, but just because of his rank.


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## Jossaff (Apr 16, 2015)

Fujitora High diff


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## Amol (Apr 16, 2015)

Same as any other Admiral.
Issho wins with Mid diff.


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## AdventureNinja (Apr 16, 2015)

Well everybody else already said it. Fujitora moderate/mid-difficulty. Doflamingo puts up a fight against a non allout Fujitora, but will lose once he does go allout. He might give some injuries to him or not. Fujitora's Observation Haki makes Parasite useless to attempt as he was seen catching it in the anime, although anime is not canon, but yeah anyway. Issho's Gravity DevilFruit power deflects any of Doflamingo's string-based moves. Doflamingo's CloseQuarterCombat will be blocked by Fujitora, as we have seen him block one of Doflamingo's kicks, and he will use Armament Haki with his swordsmanship as we have seen him block one of Sabo's Mera Logia kicks. Doflamingo can put up a fight against a non all-out Issho, but Doflamingo will lose once Fujitora starts going all-out.

Fujitora mid-diff.


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## Gohara (Apr 17, 2015)

Doflamingo wins with high to extremely high difficulty.  Fujitora's Meteors being restricted means Doflamingo doesn't have to expend energy to destroy them.  So the only real way for Fujitora to defeat Doflamingo here is using his other Gravity based techniques, and I see no reason to believe they are enough to defeat him.  A character well below Doflamingo's level has overpowered Fujitora's Gravity without even using close to his most powerful technique.  This should also give Doflamingo the edge in Devil Fruit abilities.  So Doflamingo likely bests Fujitora in multiple categories while Fujitora hasn't really shown to best Doflamingo in any.  Perhaps be around even with him.  Additionally, Doflamingo has enough feats and portrayal for me to estimate that he's around Admiral level.  So any Admiral maybe other than pre time skip Akainu that is restricted should be weaker than him IMO, even if not by a lot.


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## Dellinger (Apr 17, 2015)

Doflamingo can't treat Sabo like a joke.Fujitora can.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 18, 2015)

White Hawk said:


> Doflamingo can't treat Sabo like a joke.Fujitora can.



You sure about that?

We can't compare Sabo to DD, and Fujitora didn't treat him like a joke for what we know.


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## Dellinger (Apr 18, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> You sure about that?
> 
> We can't compare Sabo to DD, and Fujitora didn't treat him like a joke for what we know.



Fujitora never took Sabo seriously in their fight.Sabo himself said that.

Sabo at the very least should be equal to Doflamingo.


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## Yuki (Apr 18, 2015)

Actually, i think DDs DF is a good match up vs Fuji. 

He can use them like a Spider web and stop the gravity from effecting him that much.



White Hawk said:


> Fujitora never took Sabo seriously in their fight.Sabo himself said that.
> 
> Sabo at the very least should be equal to Doflamingo.



Really? Because i believes Sabo's last words in that fight was. "I must get you to be at least this serious."

Which aka translates to Fuji getting serious. Ffs gain some reading comprehension. >_>


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## Dellinger (Apr 18, 2015)

Juvia. said:


> Actually, i think DDs DF is a good match up vs Fuji.
> 
> He can use them like a Spider web and stop the gravity from effecting him that much.
> 
> ...



Which means Fujitora was taking him seriously before.Also they stopped fighting after that because Fujitora accomplished what he wanted.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 19, 2015)

Fuji never took Sabo seriously, Sabo never took Fuji seriously.

As for how seriously Fujiwould have to take DD, will never know.


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## Tenma (Apr 19, 2015)

Jozu got Aokiji to take him seriously.

Doffy>=Jozu and Sabo flat out>Jozu.

Do the math.


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## Dellinger (Apr 19, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Fuji never took Sabo seriously, Sabo never took Fuji seriously.
> 
> As for how seriously Fujiwould have to take DD, will never know.



There is nothing that suggests Sabo didn't take the fight seriously.He was constantly using the mera mera hence why the city was on fire.Fujitora was harmless and was telling jokes to Sabo.

@Tenma

Aokiji was near equal to Akainu,are you implying that DD and Sabo would compare to Akainu?


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## Captain Altintop (Apr 19, 2015)

Fujitora should win this mid (high) difficulty.

DD is no pushover but obviously beyond Admirals.


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## Coruscation (Apr 19, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Jozu got Aokiji to take him seriously.
> 
> Doffy>=Jozu and Sabo flat out>Jozu.
> 
> Do the math.



Sabo being "flat out" > Jozu doesn't have any support and Jozu and Aokiji fought each other in the middle of an extremely important battle. Obviously Aokiji would be serious. Fujitora and Sabo fought during a time when Fujitora was deliberately stalling. Sabo fighting him played right into Fuji's game. It gave Fuji an actual excuse for not having caught the Straw Hats or trying to interfere more. Fuji was never seriously trying to defeat Sabo, the whole thing was him stalling and wasting time. The fight ended because Sabo eventually realized this.

Sabo was unarguably serious, there is no debate here, he was setting a huge portion of the city on fire with his Mera Mera, he had a very serious face on and his motive for fighting was _protecting his brother_. Whether Sabo went all-out or not, that's a different story. He really shouldn't be pulling his punches against an Admiral but it's possible he held back to a degree to avoid causing even more collateral damage. Fujitora however we know for a fact was neither serious nor did he go all-out.


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## Tenma (Apr 19, 2015)

White Hawk said:


> There is nothing that suggests Sabo didn't take the fight seriously.He was constantly using the mera mera hence why the city was on fire.Fujitora was harmless and was telling jokes to Sabo.
> 
> @Tenma
> 
> Aokiji was near equal to Akainu,are you implying that DD and Sabo would compare to Akainu?



Not compare.

Just get him to take them seriously and give him a good fight.

Aokiji's victory is of course not in doubt.



> Sabo being "flat out" > Jozu doesn't have any support and Jozu and Aokiji fought each other in the middle of an extremely important battle. Obviously Aokiji would be serious. Fujitora and Sabo fought during a time when Fujitora was deliberately stalling. Sabo fighting him played right into Fuji's game. It gave Fuji an actual excuse for not having caught the Straw Hats or trying to interfere more. Fuji was never seriously trying to defeat Sabo, the whole thing was him stalling and wasting time. The fight ended because Sabo eventually realized this.



Agreed. But if Fuji wanted to defeat Sabo, he'd have to engage him seriously.

I think Sabo being the Revo's 2nd means he's stronger than Jozu. Any 2nd of a Yonkou class organization will be stronger than Jozu (while the Revos are technically not a Yonkou group, it's not like all the Yonkou will follow the same power structure and I expect the gap between Sabo-Dragon to be smaller than say Big Mom-Bobbins). Even if he isn't at his peak, he should be stronger than WB's 3rd (and it's more of a nominal 3rd than anything, his rank isn't higher than the other commanders). Ace wasn't so much weaker than Jozu that someone who was as strong as him, had 2 years of similarly high growth rate and gained a powerful fruit besides will still be weaker than Jozu.


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## Kaiser (Apr 19, 2015)

Doflamingo isn't stronger than Jozu anyway. Because he caught him off-guard with his string ability doesn't matter, not when he can't even scratch the guy. Oda even created a chapter("Conflict at the summit") during the war of the best where we could see the heavy hitters and Doflamingo was left out of it, not Jozu. I feel Jozu is terribly underestimated here around anyway, especially comparatively to Marco and the admirals when they were always presented to be comparable and he arguably even had better feats than Marco during that war, only losing ground the moment he was distracted and still puting up a fight for a while with a single arm. There is a reason Oda created that distraction


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## Coruscation (Apr 19, 2015)

I believe we discussed this a while back. Sabo can not be equated to a Yonkou FM in power just due to his position and here's why. Marco has clearly superior portrayal to him vs. an Admiral and Sabo was 2nd even before the MMnM, at which point he would have done even worse against Fuji. Sabo isn't a veteran who we know is strong because he's a Yonkou's top lieutenant. He was picked up by Dragon when Dragon likely already had much of his core crew. He's not the partner type guy, he's the being groomed as the eventual successor type guy. But it's important to realize he's not there yet. There's obviously quite a long time before he grows into the shoes Dragon believes he eventually will. So he can't be equated to a Yonkou FM; his situation is completely different. 

When the only argument for Sabo > Jozu is his position and that argument doesn't work due to what I said above, Sabo > Jozu can't possibly be definitive. It's possible Sabo is stronger but it certainly isn't definitive and I personally lean toward that they're just about on par or Jozu slightly better. Sabo will rocket past him with no problems soon enough but he just got his Mera Mera no Mi and even with that Fujitora was treating him so lightly. Jozu had huge respect on the most prestigious scene we've ever seen so far, the MF war:

- shown consistently as one of the top three on one side
- one of the fighters engaging in the dramatic opening sequence, alongside the other top dogs WB, Aokiji, Kizaru, Akainu, Mihawk and Marco. That's some pretty good company right there. Doflamingo was absent here and jumped into action later, alongside the likes of Hancock and Kuma.
- tanked Mihawk's attack aimed to test WB's strength
- was completely, leisurely trusted by WB to hold off Aokiji
- fought Aokiji without showing any weakness until he was distracted

Sabo doesn't have enough to his name to be considered definitively above someone with all those credits. He just doesn't. You have to remember he's dynamic, Jozu is static, Sabo's growth is constant and will accelerate even further with the Mera Mera no Mi in his possession. Sabo will probably be above Jozu in just a couple of arcs if he isn't now.


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## Tenma (Apr 19, 2015)

DD gave approx. zero fucks during the war. He had Atmos and Jozu at his mercy but chose not to harm either of them. He wasn't shown in the conflict at the summit chapter but then the job squad VAs, fodder NW Captains who got owned by Pacifistas as well as the '90% of us can't even touch Akainu' WB commanders, were so it doesn't mean much.

I agree Jozu would have given DD a much tougher fight if he knew about Parasite, but the fact Jozu got used as a stool and was helpless while DD held a conversation with Croc shows DD had better portrayal than him. There's a reason why Oda decided to place Jozu, one of the war's top players, in such a position. It was to show that DD was a beast even among the Shichis and that unlike Croc and Jinbei he could fuck with top tiers. On the other hand, do you honestly see Marco, WB or Akainu being placed in such a situation like Jozu did? Jozu holding his own against Aokiji isn't exclusive to DD being stronger than him.


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## Tenma (Apr 19, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> I believe we discussed this a while back. Sabo can not be equated to a Yonkou FM in power just due to his position and here's why. Marco has clearly superior portrayal to him vs. an Admiral and Sabo was 2nd even before the MMnM, at which point he would have done even worse against Fuji. Sabo isn't a veteran who we know is strong because he's a Yonkou's top lieutenant. He was picked up by Dragon when Dragon likely already had much of his core crew. He's not the partner type guy, he's the being groomed as the eventual successor type guy. But it's important to realize he's not there yet. There's obviously quite a long time before he grows into the shoes Dragon believes he eventually will. So he can't be equated to a Yonkou FM; his situation is completely different.
> 
> When the only argument for Sabo > Jozu is his position and that argument doesn't work due to what I said above, Sabo > Jozu can't possibly be definitive. It's possible Sabo is stronger but it certainly isn't definitive and I personally lean toward that they're just about on par or Jozu slightly better. Sabo will rocket past him with no problems soon enough but he just got his Mera Mera no Mi and even with that Fujitora was treating him so lightly. Jozu had huge respect on the most prestigious scene we've ever seen so far, the MF war:
> 
> ...



I ended up agreeing with you that Marco was stronger (if by a small margin) than Sabo. I think if Oda intended for Sabo to be weaker than Jozu though, he would be a regular commander and rise up the ranks as he became stronger, like Smoker and Coby , not start out in such a valuable and noteworthy position that would imply him to be stronger than Jozu (unless the Revos are a crap tier organisation.)

I would compare him to Teach, who is probably the weakest Yonkou and has room to grow and will exceed them but regardless should still be stronger than all their First Mates,

Jozu fought Aokiji for a relatively short time as compared to Fuji vs Sabo. I expect fighters like DD or Sabo to be capable of holding their own against Aokiji in that timespan as well. 

As for his portrayal in MF

- Jozu was the top 3 on WB's side, but unlike Marco and WB he jobbed alot and was taken out early on.
- Sengoku and Garp weren't there, doesn't mean they are weaker than Jozu. DD later got superior portrayal to Jozu when he used him as a chair.
- Jozu's fruit is pretty much perfectly designed to tank slashing attacks though.
- Again, vs Aokji was a good feat but the fight wasn't long enough to conclude his superiority to Sabo, not did we see remotely enough of it, and Aokiji was likely holding back some of his AOE prowess.

On the other hand, he-

- was also taken out in the early phases of the war.
- Got beaten the moment he turned his head 50 degrees.
- Got foddered by Doflamingo
- Croc tanked his brilliant punk without serious injuries

The Doflamingo scene is probably the most damning, I just can't see a real top tier being used as a hype tool to a character who's being beaten early in the New World, or as any sort of hype tool for that matter.


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## Coruscation (Apr 19, 2015)

Rising through the ranks like Coby and Smoker makes no sense when Sabo is Luffy's elder brother and Luffy himself is already this strong. Oda can't show Sabo in that way, it would make no sense. Instead he emphasizes that Sabo is not what a Yonkou FM is through portraying an Admiral as blatantly superior to him, not to mentioning throwing a freaking top-tier Logia fruit into his hands.

We don't know how long Jozu and Aokiji fought compared to Sabo and Fujitora. The number of chapters passed don't correlate to actual time passed in One Piece. We can't compare the lengths.

Bullet points, in order:

- He wasn't taken out early on at all and he didn't job any less than Marco really. Jozu got frozen by Aokiji, a super lethal attack that ignores his defense, when distracted and paralyzed by Doflamingo. Marco got lasered by Kizaru, a less lethal attack that doesn't ignore his defense, when distracted and caught by Onigumo, a freaking VA. If there's any difference it's very small which is what you'd expect given the gap between Marco and Jozu being very small. 

- Sengoku and Garp weren't fighters at all at that point, that comparison doesn't work. Sengoku was the strategist hanging out in the back and Garp was conflicted. Doffy was a front line fighter like the rest but the ones Oda displayed in the opening rounds were the Admirals, Mihawk, WB, Marco and Jozu. Which also happen to be the people he treated consistently as the top dogs in the war. They fought each other and performed the big feats. Doflamingo despite looking good against Jozu was never among this group otherwise. You can't ignore this at your leisure. Oda consistently put Jozu in this group for a reason.

- and it's still the WSS, and Jozu still withstood all the concussive force of the attack. Sabo doesn't really have any feats of the same quality to his name.

- maybe not enough to conclude superiority to Sabo, but sure as hell enough to conclude that _Sabo's_ superiority isn't _definitive_. That's what my point was. Someone who WB casually trusts 100% to fight an Admiral, that's kind of a bad match-up for him, and only loses due to a distraction can't possibly be definitively inferior to Sabo, someone who an Admiral was quite leisurely against and didn't even need to take seriously to have the advantage over. Sabo just flat out doesn't have that kind of credit to his name at this stage.

- again, not taken out early on at all.

- by Aokiji, his worst Admiral match-up. Marco was caught by Onigumo.

- bullshit, Doflamingo didn't put a single scratch on him.

- one of the war's most egregious inconsistencies, but you might as well "damn" Aokiji for his attack not taking out Luffy, or Kizaru for his attacks not taking out Luffy, or Sengoku for his attack not taking out Luffy, or Mihawk for not taking out Croc, or etc. It's a pretty silly thing to do.


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## Tenma (Apr 19, 2015)

Coby and Smoker is an exaggeration of course, of course, of course he isn't going to start at the bottom. But if Mera Sabo is weaker than Jozu that means Base Sabo is weaker than a good amount, and he was already the 2nd strongest Revo after Dragon...holy crap that makes for one wretched organisation of weaklings. We can all agree that the Admirals are all superior to Jozu anyway, Oda having Jozu's attack do jack shit to Aokiji while Aokiji oneshotted Jozu speaks as much. Being a strong Revo commander who is shown to have authority over other high ranking Revos would have sufficed if he was weaker than Jozu.

Again, Teach is dynamic and did run from Akainu, yet noone doubts his strength as a Yonko.

We do see more of Sabo vs Fuji, and how ruined the city is and that much of the land around them is flat, scorched earth does indicate they were fighting for a long time.

- He got taken down well before Luffy even saved Ace, pretty much almost immediately after they entered the plaza. I would hardly compare Onigumo's scene to Doflamingo. Doflamingo's scene was meant to hype his might and Jozu was looking at him, while Marco ignored everything else, even Kizaru's lasers, and didn't care what hit him, so of course he got cuffed. The cuffs were more of an excuse for Kizaru to do permanent damage since otherwise he couldn't have slowed Marco at all. Kizaru still didn't manage to defeat him anyway.

- And DD pretty much gave zero fucks in the whole war, never even scratched Atmos in spite of parasiting him. The fact that Oda wrote the scene with him pwning Jozu shows that Oda intended him to be among the strongest players in that battlefield, just one with no direct investment in the whole thing. Mihawk, that one scene aside was otherwise occupied with chasing Luffy, fighting evenly with lolVista, and getting scenes with Croc and Buggy that didn't speak the best of him.  Yet he is stronger than everyone but Akainu and Whitebeard. The war was intended to showcase the strength of WB pirates (duh) and the 3 Admirals, everyone else got largely neglected feat wise. That doesn't mean the people who didn't end up being aong the core 6 fighters are weaker.

- Sabo no-sold ferocious tiger and clashed with Fuji without giving an inch. He isn't the tank Jozu is but that seems to be practically all Jozu has got going for him. Ang again Jozu has one tanking feat, Sabo is just all round feats in all areas (Haki, strength, skill, speed, DC).

- Again, I doubt Aokiji would have needed a distraction beat Jozu. The monstrous difference in damage that each of their attacks dealt to each other should speak enough since we really didn't see enough of anything to make any conclusions. I doubt WB believed Jozu would have beaten Aokiji, just hold him back, which Sabo is certainly capable of doing, hell, Ace held his own against Aokiji for a while as well while looking cocky and shit. Oda didn't actually show the fight, but the comparison of Brilliant Punk vs nameless ice attack and the fact that Aokiji won without any consequence to himself is enough to show Aokji is stronger by a noticeable margin.

- Much earlier than any of the other top players.

- Caught by Onigumo, blasted repeatedly through the chest by Kizaru and kept on kicking and surviving long enough to get freed after Ace died in spite of being in cuffs.

- DD didn't bother to put a single scratch on him like with Atmos But Jozu was helpless.

-  Granted. But compare this with Sabo oneshotting a senior VA with implied superiority to another VA by grabbing his face and his offensive power seems wanting. Honestly, all Jozu seems to have going for him is toughness based on on-screen feats.


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## Coruscation (Apr 19, 2015)

Tenma said:
			
		

> Coby and Smoker is an exaggeration of course, of course, of course he isn't going to start at the bottom. But if Mera Sabo is weaker than Jozu that means Base Sabo is weaker than a good amount, and he was already the 2nd strongest Revo after Dragon...holy crap that makes for one wretched organisation of weaklings. We can all agree that the Admirals are all superior to Jozu anyway, Oda having Jozu's attack do jack shit to Aokiji while Aokiji oneshotted Jozu speaks as much. Being a strong Revo commander who is shown to have authority over other high ranking Revos would have sufficed if he was weaker than Jozu.



You don't even know what Dragon's organization look like and you call his organization weak based off of one person? Don't make assumptions. Ivankov thought that the WG pissing off Dragon would be really bad, and he didn't even _know_ about Sabo's current self at that time. So it's entirely possible and even likely he has plenty of powerful people besides Sabo. Sabo just being a strong commander doesn't jive with how he's being groomed for supreme command/Dragon's successor. He is what Ace was in the WB crew, difference being + 2 years and the Revs being more strict and hierachical compared to the WB crew where people were really just made commanders because of the need for some sort of structure in that giant crew.



> Again, Teach is dynamic and did run from Akainu, yet noone doubts his strength as a Yonko.



That was 2 years ago. I highly doubt he would run now. If Sabo had fought like this against Fujitora 2 years ago, that would be analogous and then I'd totally agree there's no reason whatsoever to think Sabo is below Jozu.



> We do see more of Sabo vs Fuji, and how ruined the city is and that much of the land around them is flat, scorched earth does indicate they were fighting for a long time.



Not really, people on this level can cause collateral very quickly, just look at Law vs. Smoker, which lasted what, a few minutes? We see more because Sabo is a more important character. Oda really didn't show shit from any fight in the war.



> - He got taken down well before Luffy even saved Ace, pretty much almost immediately after they entered the plaza. I would hardly compare Onigumo's scene to Doflamingo. Doflamingo's scene was meant to hype his might and Jozu was looking at him, while Marco ignored everything else, even Kizaru's lasers, and didn't care what hit him, so of course he got cuffed.



That's not remotely early. He got wiped out in what, 567? 568? War started in 552. Ended in 580 but WB himself went down in 575. In the most damning estimate, Jozu got taken down at 50% but this doesn't reflect the fact that the dynamics changed a lot once WB died and it basically turned into a different battle. That's NOT early.

Onigumo's scene may not have hyped him as much as Doflamingo's, which is logical because Onigumo clearly isn't as strong as DD, but you can't get away from the fact that he caught Marco. That happened end of story. Marco got caught by a guy even weaker than Doflamingo. Both took hits from Admirals when distracted, Jozu had the worse match-up so he got the worse of it. If Jozu "jobbed" then so did Marco, no way around it.



> - And DD pretty much gave zero fucks in the whole war, never even scratched Atmos in spite of parasiting him. The fact that Oda wrote the scene with him pwning Jozu shows that Oda intended him to be among the strongest players in that battlefield, just one with no direct investment in the whole thing. Mihawk, that one scene aside was otherwise occupied with chasing Luffy, fighting evenly with lolVista, and getting scenes with Croc and Buggy that didn't speak the best of him. Yet he is stronger than everyone but Akainu and Whitebeard. The war was intended to showcase the strength of WB pirates (duh) and the 3 Admirals, everyone else got largely neglected feat wise. That doesn't mean the people who didn't end up being aong the core 6 fighters are weaker.



Mihawk had his tsunami slicing monster feat. What did DD get? Aside from his interaction with Jozu, cutting off Oars' leg was his best feat. That's no tsunami cutter or iceberg toss. Jozu was constantly grouped with the absolute top dogs, over and over. When he didn't have his guard dropped he did great and never showed weakness to anyone.

The problem here is your insistence that Jozu is *clearly* weaker than Sabo. There is no possible way you can justify this when Jozu has all that going for him on the most prestigious scene we've ever seen in OP. Sabo doesn't have the clout.



> - Sabo no-sold ferocious tiger and clashed with Fuji without giving an inch. He isn't the tank Jozu is but that seems to be practically all Jozu has got going for him. Ang again Jozu has one tanking feat, Sabo is just all round feats in all areas (Haki, strength, skill, speed, DC).



Yeah, he had a lucky match-up; his fire wasn't affected by Fuji's gravity. You could say it's comparable, and it is, but a slash from the WSS meant to test the WSM's strength > a move from a half-assing Fujitora. So gravity didn't affect Sabo's body, and nor was Fuji using meteors (which wouldn't do anything anyway). So what you're basically saying is Sabo used his full power to seriously clash with a Fuji who was pretty much limited to his sword, during this time Fuji wasn't serious and still managing to hold the advantage. These are in no way above-Jozu level feats.



> - Again, I doubt Aokiji would have needed a distraction beat Jozu. The monstrous difference in damage that each of their attacks dealt to each other should speak enough since we really didn't see enough of anything to make any conclusions.



Eventually Jozu would have gone down, but he was holding his own very well before the distraction, which is why Oda created the distraction to screw the WB pirates over. When you combine this with Jozu being a bad match-up against Aokiji, Sabo being a good match-up against Fuji, Fuji clearly not being serious whilst Aokiji logically should have been and still having the advantage, there's just absolutely no way you can claim Sabo is definitively above Jozu. Jozu had too good portrayal against an Admiral to be definitively below Sabo. Marco does have better portrayal than either yet clearly Marco is only slightly above Jozu since they have such generally comparable portrayal and are two sides of the same coin that is WB's shields as his left and right hand men. So it should go Marco >(clear but small gap)> Jozu =/= Sabo.



> I doubt WB believed Jozu would have beaten Aokiji, just hold him back, which Sabo is certainly capable of doing, hell, Ace held his own against Aokiji for a while as well while looking cocky and shit.



Sure, Sabo is a good match-up though (as we saw with Ace as well) while Jozu is a pretty awful match-up considering Aokiji is one of the few people who can totally bypass his defenses. Not to mention Jozu has to fight up close, clearly isn't the super agile type and yet WB was just casually leaving the fight to him and Jozu held his own perfectly fine against an Aokiji who had a real motive to be fully serious, unlike the Fujitora we know was dicking around the whole time.



> - Much earlier than any of the other top players.



7-8 chapters before Whitebeard himself. And so what? What on earth is this even meant to be evidence of? Jozu lost to very unfortunate circumstances. Most VA didn't even go down, Akainu temporarily did, what does that mean? Jozu being taken out of the game if anything reinforces his strength. Oda had to knock such a powerful player out to make it convincing that the WB pirates were later losing as much as they were.



> - Caught by Onigumo, blasted repeatedly through the chest by Kizaru and kept on kicking and surviving long enough to get freed after Ace died in spite of being in cuffs.



And Jozu wouldn't have done the same in the same situation? You're neglecting the weight of circumstances. Aokiji is more lethal than Kizaru. I believe you even agreed with me Aokiji > Kizaru. Jozu got a worse deal than Marco, a worse match-up, that's why he was taken out while Marco was merely left bleeding and incapable of fighting.



> - DD didn't bother to put a single scratch on him like with Atmos But Jozu was helpless.



More like couldn't, I'd say. DD's strong attacks are all cutting moves and Jozu can shrug off Mihawk's slash. What are DD's strings going to do to him? His punches and kicks aren't going to do jack shit either when they do little damage to Luffy who has a tinyt fraction of the defensive might of Jozu.

At any rate speculation is irrelevant. What matters is DD neither put a single scratch on Jozu nor showed the ability to puppeteer him. He only paralyzed him with a move we don't even know the mechanics of. This is not a fodderization, it is not even a win, plain and simple. It is simply DD paralyzing Jozu and us having no idea how and if he could have proceeded after that.



> - Granted. But compare this with Sabo oneshotting a senior VA with implied superiority to another VA by grabbing his face and his offensive power seems wanting. Honestly, all Jozu seems to have going for him is toughness based on on-screen feats.



Not unless you slam Sengoku's offensive power for the same reasons it doesn't. War feats are blatantly inconsistent, there's really nothing more to it.


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## Freechoice (Apr 19, 2015)

Nice arguments Tenma my man.

Post more often broey


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## Kai (Apr 19, 2015)

White Hawk said:


> Doflamingo can't treat Sabo like a joke.Fujitora can.


No, he can't.

Fujitora outright stated he was willing to put his life on the line when the fight escalated.


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## Coruscation (Apr 19, 2015)

He was referring to how he was doing things that would get him into trouble with the WG if his intentions were discovered, not to the fight with Sabo.


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## Dr. White (Apr 19, 2015)

Kai said:


> No, he can't.
> 
> Fujitora outright stated he was willing to put his life on the line when the fight escalated.



Wasn't talking about fighting Dofla.

Fujitora can low to mid diff Dofla pending his State of mind. Dofla pretty much admitted he'd need his whole crew and it'd be a huge hassle.


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## Dellinger (Apr 19, 2015)

Kai said:


> No, he can't.
> 
> Fujitora outright stated he was willing to put his life on the line when the fight escalated.



He was willing to put his life on the line because he is going against the government's wishes.Read the chapters again.


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## Gohara (Apr 19, 2015)

@ Coruscation.

You make some good points, and it's actually refreshing to see some type of reasoning of an Admiral holding back, but:

Sabo- He doesn't know what Fujitora is up to, which is something he himself says.  For all he knows Fujitora is planning to help them, so that's a possible reason for him to hold back.

Fujitora- What you listed could be a reason as to why Fujitora isn't going all out, but that's not necessarily clear.  Fujitora may have to go all out to prevent Sabo from defeating him.  I'm not saying Fujitora is going all out, but unless we assume Fujitora thinks he can prevent Sabo from defeating him without going all out it's still very possible he was going all out at the time while still not wishing to kill Sabo.  He should be capable of defeating a character without killing them.

I doubt either was holding back notably more than the other.  There are reasons on both sides of why they may have been holding back, but that just adds to the lack of clarity since we can't factually determine which of the two were holding back and by how much.


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## Dellinger (Apr 19, 2015)

Sabo had no reason to hold back.


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## Gohara (Apr 19, 2015)

Then can you disprove the possible reason I listed?


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## Coruscation (Apr 19, 2015)

Gohara said:


> @ Coruscation.
> 
> You make some good points, and it's actually refreshing to see some type of reasoning of an Admiral holding back, but:
> 
> ...



Anyone can come up with an infinite number of "possibilities". Why don't you try using your reading comprehension to interpret the context clues actually given in the manga to deduce the answer?

Fujitora has every reason to hold back. He was benefiting from being "stalemated" because it gave him an excuse he can name as to why he didn't go after Luffy. Stalemated is in quotes because we were told through Maynard that it's ridiculous that Fujitora would actually get stalemated and he immediately began to suspect his intentions. That alone tells us Fujitora was never going all out on Sabo. We know he wasn't serious because he had no reason to want to take down Sabo, and happily went separate ways from him once Sabo realized he won't go after Luffy. Fujitora is almost completely unperturbed by Sabo's attacks. All these hints suggest Fujitora was holding back.

Sabo has every reason *not* to hold back. The person he is fighting is an Admiral, one of the the World Government's top fighters. This Admiral, as far as he knows, is going after Luffy, his brother. That's the very reason he's fighting him. He would obviously want to go all out to stop the Admiral from killing his brother. There is no reason at all given to think Sabo was holding back. He is bruised and panting while Fujitora isn't even breathing hard and isn't shown with any scuff marks on him. There is no reason given to believe Sabo has any chance against an Admiral while holding back. In short, there is absolutely nothing in the manga that suggests Sabo held back anything.

No, there are no reasons why Sabo would have been holding back other than the obvious collateral damage which applies to both equally. Those are not reasons suggested in the story. They're reasons you have made up that have no support behind them from the actual manga. They're nothing more than random ideas. There's absolutely no reason presented to believe that Fujitora went all-out because he had to as he would otherwise be killed by Sabo. There's absolutely no reason presented to believe Sabo held back because he thought Fujitora might want to help them. These things have to be suggested in the story to take them seriously in an argument. You can't just grab "possibilities" out of thin air and tell me I'm supposed to take them seriously. I'm not going to.

tl;dr: you're not analyzing the story itself, you're making up your own random ideas. Anyone can do that. But you have no evidence at all. The clues in the actual manga tell us that Fujitora was never serious and never went all-out on Sabo. They correspondingly tell us Sabo was very much serious and probably used everything he had on the Admiral. Therefore that's the logical answer.

Stories don't always spell everything out explicitly, Gohara. You're supposed to understand the meaning of events and words even if the author doesn't overtly tell them to you in big bold letters of factual statement.

For example, it's "possible" that Rob Lucci actually had a secret extra strong Zoan form that he could have gone into and defeated Luffy with in Enies Lobby. You can't disprove that Lucci didn't have a secret form that would have beaten Luffy. It's possible he held it back because he really, really wanted to beat Luffy with just his normal forms. Oda never wrote it explicitly in the manga that Lucci didn't have a secret form so you can't disprove it. Therefore, we can't factually determine that Luffy was as strong as or stronger than Lucci at the time of Enies Lobby. So, I doubt Luffy was as strong as or stronger than Lucci at the time of Enies Lobby because Lucci might have had a secret extra strong form.

Do you see how silly that sounds? That is how silly you sound. Try to understand that making up random possibilities isn't proper argumentation. Interpreting the meaning and clues of the actual story is. You don't appear to be willing to do that with Sabo vs. Fujitora. You seem to prefer just making up random ideas. I'm afraid I can't hold a debate with you under these conditions. If you decide that you would like to actually analyze the story, I might take you up on it.


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## Dellinger (Apr 19, 2015)

Gohara said:


> Then can you disprove the possible reason I listed?



Sabo was fighting because he wanted to protect Luffy why would he hold back?
Sabo is the same guy who left the injured of Dressrosa because something might happen to Luffy.

Regarding Fujitora I responded to you in another thread but this time I'll just post actual dialogue from the manga in case you forgot what it was said.



> Koala: Hello? Are you listening, Sabo-kun?!
> Sabo: I?m listening.
> Koala: You have your position to think about, remember?! / You can?t just go fighting a Marine Admiral on a whim!! // Are you trying to make the Revolutionary Army start a war?!
> Sabo: My brother was in trouble!! The Revolutionaries have nothing to do with it!!!
> ...





> Marines: Stop right there, filthy pirates!!! // !! // Why, you...taking advantage of the chaos...!!! // Vice-Admiral Maynard!! It seems Isshou-san?s battle with Sabo ended in a draw......!!
> Maynard: What?!!
> 
> 3
> ...



Now if you still think that Fujitora was fighting seriously instead of just trying to get himself occupied then you're an idiot.


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## ShadoLord (Apr 19, 2015)

Sabo was starting to push Fujitora to getting serious after he used gravi sword: fierce tiger, not to mention Sabo was completely new to his df powers and couldn't control it completely or used some of it's stronger attacks.


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## LyricalMessiah (Apr 19, 2015)

White Hawk said:


> There is nothing that suggests Sabo didn't take the fight seriously.He was constantly using the mera mera hence why the city was on fire.Fujitora was harmless and was telling jokes to Sabo.


How was he not fighting seriously when the Admiral went to the extent of using a named attack on Sabo that he names 'fierce tiger' in addition to dropping a meteor on him and could not 'easily' overpower him when they engaged in close quarter combat with their weapons? The argument that he wasn't remotely fighting with conviction against Sabo is in contradiction with what the manga portrays of their fight.  In addition, Sabo himself states that he hasn?t fully gotten accustomed to his Devil fruit which signifies that he was engaging Fujitora with lack of control over his DF and could have had better results against him if he had full mastery over his DF even though he?d still lose.   Going by your logic that Sabo was serious because he was constantly using his Mera Mera no mi, you theoretically agree with the argument that Fujitora was serious against Sabo to a certain degree. Just because Fujitora takes the 2nd commander of the revolutionary army seriously does in no way become detrimental to his overall capabilities so as to portraying him in a negative light neither does it mean that Fujitora is weaker than him.


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## Gohara (Apr 20, 2015)

@ Coruscation.

Except we're not talking about random possibilities.  A random possibility would be more like if Sabo didn't express that he's not sure what Fujitora's up to and I said "Well it's possible Sabo isn't sure what Fujitora is up to and therefore he may come to the conclusion that by defeating Fujitora he could be defeating someone who isn't an enemy and therefore could be an ally".  Sabo clearly expresses that he isn't sure what Fujitora is up to, and even then what Fujitora _is_ up to isn't far off from the possibility Sabo could have concluded, so it certainly isn't a random possibility.  As for the other possibility- Sabo being powerful enough to require Fujitora to go all out even if he normally wouldn't against a character significantly weaker than him under those circumstances is in no way, shape, or form random.  It's a legitimate possibility.  Also, that possibility isn't the same thing as saying Sabo can defeat an Admiral while holding back by a notable amount.  If Fujitora himself is holding back, which you seem to believe he is, then Sabo can hold back and still fight on par with an Admiral.  These are different from your Lucci example.  Lucci not simply using that form doesn't really make sense.  Those possibilities are legitimate possibilities that do make sense.

As for Fujitora giving himself an excuse to not help Doflamingo- what's he doing right now?  If that serves to give him an excuse, why couldn't he have just done that?  Why end up telling Sabo or allowing him to believe that Fujitora isn't his enemy?  Fujitora could have prolonged the fight to continue giving himself that excuse.  Fujitora is also currently going against Doflamingo.  So your explanations for Fujitora aren't really adding up IMO.  As for Maynard, are his views particularly objective?  His reasoning could be used if a Yonkou defeats an Admiral.  Does that make it absurd for a Yonkou to be able to defeat an Admiral?  He of course thinks of the Admirals highly.  Also, while I do rank the Admirals lower than you do, they are still of a special class.  Not many characters are more powerful than Admiral level and to even be on that level is still rare percentage wise.

@ White Hawk.

Refer to my points above.


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## Ryuksgelus (Apr 22, 2015)

Gohara said:


> Then can you disprove the possible reason I listed?



You want him to prove a negative :/?

We are given no reason or slightest implication from the dialog, panels, or context of the situation that Sabo has a reason to hold back.

You can't make up a reason then ask someone to prove your assumption wrong before we can say what the actual information presented to us says. If that is how life in general worked we'd never find answers for anything because we can go on for a long time thinking of possibilities on a whim for why something is one way and not another.


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## Ryuksgelus (Apr 22, 2015)

Gohara said:


> @ Coruscation.
> 
> Except we're not talking about random possibilities.  A random possibility would be more like if Sabo didn't express that he's not sure what Fujitora's up to and I said "Well it's possible Sabo isn't sure what Fujitora is up to and therefore he may come to the conclusion that by defeating Fujitora he could be defeating someone who isn't an enemy and therefore could be an ally".  Sabo clearly expresses that he isn't sure what Fujitora is up to, and even then what Fujitora _is_ *up to isn't far off from the possibility Sabo* could have concluded, so it certainly isn't a random possibility.  As for the other possibility- Sabo being powerful enough to require Fujitora to go all out even if he normally wouldn't against a character significantly weaker than him under those circumstances is in no way, shape, or form random.  It's a legitimate possibility.  Also, that possibility isn't the same thing as saying Sabo can defeat an Admiral while holding back by a notable amount.  If Fujitora himself is holding back, which you seem to believe he is, then Sabo can hold back and still fight on par with an Admiral.  These are different from your Lucci example.  Lucci not simply using that form doesn't really make sense.  Those possibilities are legitimate possibilities that do make sense.
> 
> ...




*Because you say so it's not random?* It's random because nothing implies that is what happened. Authors drop hints to help deduce what is goings on.  I, Coru, Whitehawk, any poster can post scenario and who are you to say our possibility is any less valid than yours?  Sabo has no idea Fuji was holding back until later in the fight. Why would he hold back against the Marine's strongest who he thinks is after his little brother? You think Sabo went 50% too and got lucky that going easy didn't cost him his life because Fuji just happened to be holding back to. Your totally not random scenarios are just *you wanting to believe what you want to believe* and making up your own reasons to paint *your belief* and what Oda is actually telling us as equally viable. A cop out you use routinely. 

Because his intention for fighting Sabo in the first place was to put on a show for his own marines. Once they were out of sight he had no further reason to continue fighting.


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## Vengeance (Apr 22, 2015)

I think Doflamingo can push him to high difficulty, lower end.


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## Gohara (Apr 22, 2015)

Ryuksgelus said:


> You want him to prove a negative?



No, I want him to prove that Sabo considering that Fujitora may be helping them or at least not going against them is unlikely.  Also:





Ryuksgelus said:


> We are given no reason or slightest implication from the dialog, panels, or context of the situation that Sabo has a reason to hold back.



I respond to this in my response to Coruscation.



Ryuksgelus said:


> You can't make up a reason then ask someone to prove your assumption wrong



I'm not assuming that Sabo is considering that Fujitora may be helping them or at least not going against them (although Fujitora _is_ helping them or at least not going against them).  I'm listing it as a possibility because the person I'm responding to is saying that there is no possible reason for Sabo to have held back.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Because you say so it's not random?



That reasoning goes both ways (indeed- I was responding to a post asserting that it is random with no reasoning), but no, I explained why it's not random.



Ryuksgelus said:


> It's random because nothing implies that is what happened.



Sabo explicitly states that he's not sure what Fujitora is up to and that is actually close to what Fujitora was doing.  It only needs to be a reasonable possibility for it not to be random.  Random would mean it was considered without any rhyme or reason.



Ryuksgelus said:


> who are you to say our possibility is any less valid than yours?



You're right, and I haven't said the possibility you're posting is invalid.  My point is that we don't know.  Not that we know the possibility you're listing to be false and the possibility I'm listing to be true.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Sabo has no idea Fuji was holding back until later in the fight.



Who's to say for sure that Fujitora was holding back at all, let alone when Sabo knows that Fujitora is holding back?



Ryuksgelus said:


> Why would he hold back against the Marine's strongest who he thinks is after his little brother?



Why would Fujitora hold back against the Second In Command of the Revolutionaries who is trying to protect his brother?  That's not an actual question.  I'm just making a point.



Ryuksgelus said:


> You think Sabo went 50% too



???

I don't think either of them were only using 50% of their power.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Your totally not random scenarios are just *you wanting to believe what you want to believe* and making up your own reasons to paint *your belief* and what Oda is actually telling us as equally viable.



Not only is this an easy response anyone can say to someone disagreeing with them, but considering my point is that we don't know while your point is that we do know without anything close to conclusive evidence, I'm not really sure how you came to that conclusion.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Because his intention for fighting Sabo in the first place was to put on a show for his own marines. Once they were out of sight he had no further reason to continue fighting.



I could bring up multiple points, but I'll just bring up one: That doesn't really matter because the Marines know that the fight is over.  Fujitora's currently not doing anything against the Revolutionaries and Straw Hat Pirates.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Apr 22, 2015)

Pretty sure Doflamingo would be able to give Fuji a good run for his money before going down high diff


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## Ryuksgelus (Apr 22, 2015)

Gohara said:


> N
> 
> Not only is this an easy response anyone can say to someone disagreeing with them, but *considering my point is that we don't know while your point is that we do know without anything close to conclusive evidence,* I'm not really sure how you came to that conclusion.



Wow. You're doing *exactly *what I just said you would do? Trying to paint what is actually happening and what you believe/want to be happening as equally viable. 

Nothing conclusive because you say so? All you're doing is making up excuses to entertain all possibilities instead of narrowing them down. 

Even you quoting every individual line is some screwy way of avoiding how retarded your own logic can be by detracting from the overall points of the paragraphs. Basically making a little one so the main issue never ever gets addressed because you don't like the likely conclusion.


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## Gohara (Apr 22, 2015)

Ryuksgelus said:


> Wow. You're doing *exactly *what I just said you would do? Trying to paint what is actually happening and what you believe/want to be happening as equally viable.



No.  My point is that I'm not taking a position.  So where you came to the conclusion that I want either scenario to happen is my question, because you are the one taking a position without anything close to conclusive evidence.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Nothing conclusive because you say so?



No, not _because_ I say so.



Ryuksgelus said:


> All you're doing is making up excuses to entertain all possibilities instead of narrowing them down.



I'm not entertaining all possibilities.  I'm entertaining a group of possibilities, but because they are possibilities in which none of them have conclusive evidence I'm not jumping to the conclusion of one.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Even you quoting every individual line is some screwy way of avoiding how retarded your own logic can be by detracting from the overall points of the paragraphs. Basically making a little one so the main issue never ever gets addressed because you don't like the likely conclusion.



This is just empty ad hominem.  People quote others a lot, does that mean they're doing so to avoid the points (that doesn't really make sense either- but for the sake of my point let's assume it does)?


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## Admiral Kizaru (Apr 23, 2015)

Gohara said:


> Who's to say for sure that Fujitora was holding back at all, let alone when Sabo knows that Fujitora is holding back?



Give it up Ryuksgelus. There's no hope for the likes of Gohara and his fellow Sabo fan ilk; he'll just resort to more pointless obfuscations and pettifoggery to pretend that his points have any sort of merit to them instead of acknowledging them for the stinking pile of horseshit they are. 

I mean it's staggering really, Corus and several others write several good posts outlining why it's insane to think that Sabo held back and yet he keeps replying with this same mantra as if they completely passed him by. 

What's to say anything really? What's to say for sure that Usopp couldn't go up to Doflamingo right now in the story and low diff him? What's to say for sure that I'm not king of the world (well I wouldn't be posting on here for one tbh)?


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## Gohara (Apr 23, 2015)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> I mean it's staggering really, Corus and several others write several good posts outlining why it's insane to think that Sabo held back and yet he keeps replying with this same mantra as if they completely passed him by.



I'm not sure you have a clear understanding of the discussion and the points being made, and I say that because:

A. You think this discussion is partially about saying Coruscation isn't making good points.

B. You think I ignored Coruscation's points.

C. The examples you listed.

D. You think this has anything to do with being a fan of Sabo.

Coruscation has written good posts on the subject and indeed I agree that he makes some good points, but by no means has he justified that the idea of Sabo holding back is unlikely.  He has only noted reasonable possibilities that Fujitora may have been holding back.  It's not about whether or not one side has made good points, *it's about the fact that good points can be made on both sides*, and for your assertions to be correct they rely heavily on _just_ your side making good points and there being no reasonable possibilities on the contrary- but there are.

As for saying his posts completely passed me by, that implies I didn't even address his points, which I very clearly did.  The idea that Sabo is unlikely to have been holding back isn't being ignored.  It's being dismissed.  I'm throwing it out because it can't be reasonably argued.  If you feel the need to complain about that, then with all due respect all I can say is get over it and/or try harder.



Admiral Kizaru said:


> What's to say anything really? What's to say for sure that Usopp couldn't go up to Doflamingo right now in the story and low diff him? What's to say for sure that I'm not king of the world?



I'm not sure what you're getting at with these examples.  Neither have any reasonable basis nor are they even close to the truth.  Possibilities for Sabo being held back have reasonable basis and one of them has Sabo thinking Fujitora may be doing something he actually is doing.


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## Tenma (Apr 23, 2015)

There is a difference between 'good points' and 'Make wild guesses and assumptions so I don't have to change my opinion'.

There is absolutely nothing in-manga which implies Sabo was holding back, and plenty implying Fuji did. All you are doing is making shit up 'which can't be proven wrong'. This is coming from someone who supports Sabo.

I think Kizaru was not at 100% against Rayleigh because he was deeply distressed about the Supernovas he defeated escaping and also Sentomaru's one-piece swimsuit was not very fitting of a straight male. Evidence shown in that Kizaru only used his sword instead of his light attacks, he must have been using like 50% of his power!

See, I can make shit up too!


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## Gohara (Apr 23, 2015)

Tenma said:


> There is a difference between 'good points' and 'Make wild guesses and assumptions so I don't have to change my opinion'.



I'm not guessing or assuming anything.  If I were assuming I would be taking a position on the matter.  Still, for the sake of this point lets call them guesses and assumptions.  Copy and paste the wild guesses and assumptions you're referring to, and explain how they are wild, because I've explained how they are reasonable possibilities.  Also, making wild guesses and assumptions so I don't have to change my opinion doesn't really make sense.  Not only have I explicitly stated that my point isn't to take a position, but wouldn't the guesses and assumptions be necessary to even have the opinion in the first place if they were so reliant on them?



Tenma said:


> There is absolutely nothing in-manga which implies Sabo was holding back



There is nothing in Manga that implies Fujitora is holding back.  That idea is being held largely on the basis that Fujitora was trying to find an excuse not to help Doflamingo, but that idea has several holes in it:

1. Fujitora is currently not helping Doflamingo and he has no excuse for that.

2. Fujitora continuing to fight Sabo without letting him in on what his plan is would actually be more beneficial to Fujitora because he would still have an excuse for not helping Doflamingo.

3. Just because Fujitora needs an excuse not to help Doflamingo, doesn't mean capturing Sabo wouldn't help him tremendously.

4. Just because Fujitora benefits from fighting Sabo, doesn't mean he doesn't require his full power to fight on par with him.  Fujitora can use his full power and fight on par with Sabo while still having the excuse he needs.

There may be others slipping my mind.  Hence my point that reasonable possibilities for Fujitora can also be made, but there is no sufficient evidence that Fujitora is holding back.  You're in the same boat anyone else is in if they say the same about Sabo.



Tenma said:


> All you are doing is making shit up



You mean like Fujitora possibly not helping Doflamingo?  Because that actually is what is happening.



Tenma said:


> This is coming from someone who supports Sabo.



This is coming from someone who isn't taking a position.



Tenma said:


> I think Kizaru was not at 100% against Rayleigh because he was deeply distressed about the Supernovas he defeated escaping



Except this is contradicted by Kizaru expressing frustration that Luffy escaped.  If he was frustrated about that, and he was, then he would have simply used more of his own power.



Tenma said:


> Evidence shown in that Kizaru only used his sword instead of his light attacks, he must have been using like 50% of his power!



There's a difference between not going all out and not having the chance to use all of your abilities.  Kizaru could have gone all out in a brief fight without using all of his abilities.  Also, the same can be said about Rayleigh.  He may have been going all out, but it's unlikely he used anywhere close to all of his abilities.

That's a false analogy.


----------



## Tenma (Apr 23, 2015)

> I'm not guessing or assuming anything. If I were assuming I would be taking a position on the matter. Still, for the sake of this point lets call them guesses and assumptions. Copy and paste the wild guesses and assumptions you're referring to, and explain how they are wild, because I've explained how they are reasonable possibilities. Also, making wild guesses and assumptions so I don't have to change my opinion doesn't really make sense. Not only have I explicitly stated that my point isn't to take a position, but wouldn't the guesses and assumptions be necessary to even have the opinion in the first place if they were so reliant on them?



Uh-huh.

You can justify your 'Sabo held back against Fuji because he thought Fuji was a good guy' or 'Fuji was scared of dying so he went all out' all you want, there is literally nothing in story that remotely suggests it.

And you are flat out ignoring what the story tells you.

Maynard learns Fuji stalemated-> considers it impossible that Fuji couldn't have beaten Sabo -> suddenly remembers Fuji's suspicious statement about the WG. And guess what, turns out Fuji's intentions are indeed similar to what Maynard feared, and he did want Luffy to beat DD and undermine the WG.

Any reasonable person would immediately deduce Fuji deliberately wasted time with Sabo so he could come up with an excuse as to why he didn't stop Luffy, something he literally says to Sabo. You'd have to be an idiot to think Fuji went all out.

If there was the anything on the same level implying Sabo held back _in story,_ I'm all ears.

There is nothing in Manga that implies Fujitora is holding back. That idea is being held largely on the basis that Fujitora was trying to find an excuse not to help Doflamingo, but that idea has several holes in it. 



> 1. Fujitora is currently not helping Doflamingo and he has no excuse for that.
> 
> 2. Fujitora continuing to fight Sabo without letting him in on what his plan is would actually be more beneficial to Fujitora because he would still have an excuse for not helping Doflamingo.
> 
> ...



1. So you don't actually think Fuji was buying time? Come the fuck on now, that is literally canon. Fuji literally says he will tell the WG he didn't help DD because Sabo held him back. There's a reason he stopped the fight the moment Luffy reached the palace.

2. See number 1. It's literally canon that Fuji is using it as an excuse. No conjecture here. Only an idiot would ignore the tremendously obvious subtext.

3. Yes, Fuji really wanted to capture Sabo. Which is why he ended the fight despite not really pushing himself to the limit and decided to end it on cordial terms with Sabo.

4. Fuji had no desire to defeat Sabo. He knew Sabo to be capable of countering the level of moves he used on Sabo and yet showed no concern or fear of losing. Why? He was holding back.

We know that the subtext heavily im;lies Fuji had no real stake in the fight and was using it as a means to buy time so that Luffy could reach DD unhindered. Apart form coming up with excuses where si the subtext Sabo was holding back on Fuji.



> You mean like Fujitora possibly not helping Doflamingo? Because that actually is what is happening.



Fujitora is not 'possibly not helping Doflamingo' he definitely isn't trying to help DD. He wants nothing more than for DD to be deposed.



> This is coming from someone who isn't taking a position.



Everyone takes a position.

And if you were truly unbiased it should be immediately apparent that the evidence Fuji had no intention of winning is much stronger than the evidence for Sabo (which doesn't exist really).



> Except this is contradicted by Kizaru expressing frustration that Luffy escaped. If he was frustrated about that, and he was, then he would have simply used more of his own power.



He expected Sentomaru and the Pacifista to be sufficient, he told as much to Rayleigh casually that his subordinates wee more than enough to deal with the SHs. Of course he was pissed Kuma had to butt in and ruin everything that was going so well. He could have a nice time chilling with Rayleigh while he let Sento do the heavy lifting.

Rayleigh was worried that the SHs were kinda fucked as they could not escape from the Sento and his pet cyborg, and desperately wished to help them. He obviously was going all out but couldn't against a half-assing Kizaru.



> There's a difference between not going all out and not having the chance to use all of your abilities. Kizaru could have gone all out in a brief fight without using all of his abilities. Also, the same can be said about Rayleigh. He may have been going all out, but it's unlikely he used anywhere close to all of his abilities.
> 
> That's a false analogy.



Kizaru has never used his sword in any other appearance, preferring to rely on lasers against Marco and WSM Whitebeard. He obviously was willing to chill against Rayleigh because he thought Sento that fat ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) could get the job done. It fits his personality like a shoe. You have no evidence Kizaru wasn't holding back.

Rayleigh has only shown his sword and CoC which couldn't take down Kid's and Law's brats. He used all he could.


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## Zeus. (Apr 23, 2015)

Fujitora should take this high-mid to high difficulty. It all depends on how Doffy handles this fight against Luffy.


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## Gohara (Apr 24, 2015)

Tenma said:


> there is literally nothing in story that remotely suggests it.



My point doesn't require that there be any clear implications of them.  They only need to be reasonable possibilities.  This puts you in the same boat by saying Fujitora held back.  There are no clear implications that Fujitora held back.  There are just reasonable possibilities that could fit with him holding back.  Fujitora benefiting from fighting on par with Sabo could fit within him holding back, but to still assume that he is based on that requires you to use circular reasoning.  Your conclusion does not follow your premise.



Tenma said:


> And you are flat out ignoring what the story tells you.



I'm not ignoring what you think the story is telling us.  On the contrary I'm addressing it.  I'm simply dismissing it as a likelihood or fact because it is assumptive.



Tenma said:


> Maynard learns Fuji stalemated-> considers it impossible that Fuji couldn't have beaten Sabo -> suddenly remembers Fuji's suspicious statement about the WG.
> 
> So you don't actually think Fuji was buying time? Come the fuck on now, that is literally canon. Fuji literally says he will tell the WG he didn't help DD because Sabo held him back. There's a reason he stopped the fight the moment Luffy reached the palace.



He considers it ridiculous, not impossible, and characters often think it's ridiculous for their leader to be defeated.  As for what Fujitora says, that's not my point.  My point is that using it as reasoning for Fujitora holding back has holes.  If Fujitora was holding back, why not continue to give himself an excuse?  He's currently not doing anything.  It may have benefited him to fight Sabo earlier on and it may provide him with that excuse, but he's currently not providing himself with an excuse.  So why not?  It shouldn't be a problem if he can hold back and fight on par with Sabo.

Either way Fujitora benefiting from fighting Sabo doesn't mean he's holding back unless you use circular reasoning.  This also doesn't help:



Kai said:


> Fujitora outright stated he was willing to put his life on the line when the fight escalated.





Tenma said:


> Yes, Fuji really wanted to capture Sabo. Which is why he ended the fight despite not really pushing himself to the limit and decided to end it on cordial terms with Sabo.



Capturing Sabo would be a huge victory for the World Government and the Marines.  He could have given himself an excuse and captured Sabo at the same time.  So why didn't he?  It's something he shouldn't have too much trouble doing if he's able to hold back and still fight on par with Sabo.



Tenma said:


> Fuji had no desire to defeat Sabo. He knew Sabo to be capable of countering the level of moves he used on Sabo and yet showed no concern or fear of losing. Why? He was holding back.





Kai said:


> Fujitora outright stated he was willing to put his life on the line when the fight escalated.



Aside from that, Fujitora knowing he can just stop fighting and tell Sabo of his plans if he thinks there's a good chance Sabo can defeat him would be a sensible reason.  Ace showed no fear of Akainu defeating him when they fight.



Tenma said:


> Fujitora is not 'possibly not helping Doflamingo' he definitely isn't trying to help DD.



Exactly.  So it's far from being outlandish.



Tenma said:


> Everyone takes a position.



That's not necessarily true.  I'm on the fence a lot, and I think conclusions are jumped to a lot on here.  Hence why it often seems like I'm playing Devil's advocate.  Luffy vs. Seats is a great example.  I like Luffy way more than the Seats and I believe Luffy is significantly more powerful than them individually, but I think it's jumping to conclusions to assume he can defeat all of them at once.  It's not an unreasonable opinion to say that he can, but it's certainly not factual.



Tenma said:


> And if you were truly unbiased it should be immediately apparent that the evidence Fuji had no intention of winning is much stronger than the evidence for Sabo (which doesn't exist really).



With all due respect this isn't much of an argument.  I could say the exact same thing and it would have no less validity.  That being said I don't think you're being biased.  That doesn't make your points accurate, though.



Tenma said:


> He expected Sentomaru and the Pacifista to be sufficient, he told as much to Rayleigh casually that his subordinates wee more than enough to deal with the SHs. Of course he was pissed Kuma had to butt in and ruin everything that was going so well. He could have a nice time chilling with Rayleigh while he let Sento do the heavy lifting.



He actually says "My subordinates are quite powerful, aren't they?" (I own the volume and can post the scan if need be).  Also, his subordinates being enough to defeat them without Kuma (which isn't what he says) doesn't mean that he couldn't have used more of his own power to just capture them once he realized Kuma was helping them escape.  They didn't all escape at once, and in fact it actually took a while for Kuma to help Luffy to escape.

Also, Kizaru asks Rayleigh if he can step aside so he can capture the Straw Hat Pirates.  Why would he need Rayleigh to allow him to do that if he could simply overpower Rayleigh by a notable amount and do it himself?



Tenma said:


> Kizaru has never used his sword in any other appearance



Not only has Kizaru not yet fought another swordsman outside of Old Rayleigh on panel, but that wouldn't really have much to do with whether or not he was trying and/or going all out.



Tenma said:


> You have no evidence Kizaru wasn't holding back.



Except Kizaru himself asks Rayleigh if he can step aside so he can capture the Straw Hat Pirates.  He's also expressed frustration at the Straw Hat Pirates escaping.  So while I wouldn't say that's full fledged proof Kizaru didn't hold back at the time, I would say that's evidence suggesting that's likely the case.  Meanwhile, there isn't really any evidence that Kizaru was holding back at the time.



Tenma said:


> Rayleigh has only shown his sword



That doesn't necessarily mean he used anywhere close to using all of his swordsmanship techniques as well as other techniques.


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## Empathy (Apr 24, 2015)

Tenma said:


> He had Atmos and Jozu at his mercy but chose not to harm either of them.



What could Doflamingo have done to Jozu if Mihawk's slash didn't put a scratch on him? I highly doubt he could've kept Jozu still until he starved to death.


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## Jossaff (Apr 24, 2015)

you actually believe Mihawk harmed Jozu ?


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