# Can we talk about Muslim homophobia now?



## The Pink Ninja (Feb 28, 2011)

> Last autumn, mysterious posters began to appear all over the East End of London announcing it is now a “Gay-Free Zone.” They warned: “And Fear Allah: Verily Allah is Severe in Punishment.” One of them was plastered outside the apartment block I lived in for nearly ten years, next to adverts for club nights and classes at the local library, as if it was natural and normal. I’d like to say I’m shocked – but anybody who lives in Tower Hamlets knows this has been a long time coming.
> 
> Here’s a few portents from the East End that we have chosen to ignore. In May 2008, a 15 year old Muslim girl tells her teacher she thinks she might be gay, and the Muslim teacher in a state-funded comprehensive tells her “there are no gays round here” and she will “burn in hell” if she ever acts on it. (I know because she emailed me, suicidal and begging for help). In September 2008, a young gay man called Oliver Hemsley, is walking home from the gay pub the George and Dragon when a gang of young Muslims stabs him eight times, in the back, in the lungs, and in his spinal column. In January 2010, when the thug who did it is convicted, a gang of thirty Muslims storms the George and Dragon in revenge and violently attacks everybody there. All through, it was normal to see young men handing out leaflets outside the Whitechapel Ideas Store saying gays are “evil.” Most people accept them politely.
> 
> ...





EDIT:


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## Escargon (Feb 28, 2011)

*Its not only muslims who fear gay people. Most of the countries around Europe thinks that homosexuality is a disease.

And here in Sweden last year i saw alot people trying to sabotage and scream stuffs to gay people. (Gay parade or pride or what you call it!)

Well, its wrong to say gay people should burn in hell. The homosexuality aint evil at all. 

But its true, many muslim people have alot harder time to accept that their children is gay.

I dont care if people are gays or not. Its how they act and their personality that plays the role. 

Homophobia is stupid in my eyes. *


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## Xyloxi (Feb 28, 2011)

Escargon said:


> *Its not only muslims who fear gay people. Most of the countries around Europe thinks that homosexuality is a disease.
> 
> And here in Sweden last year i saw alot people trying to sabotage and scream stuffs to gay people. (Gay parade or pride or what you call it!)
> 
> ...



Most of Europe seems to be accepting of homosexuality, all of Western Europe tends to be, whereas Eastern Europe isn't so much, but places like the Czech Republic seem to be warming up to it.


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## The Pink Ninja (Feb 28, 2011)

Added a counter argument in the OP


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## Hi Im God (Feb 28, 2011)

Wait what? A 15year old girl emails an obscure blogger site (journalist) to say she's suicidal cause she's gay, as if he could do anything about it?  He writes about their plight 2 YEARS later?



> a 15 year old Muslim girl tells her teacher she thinks she might be gay, and the Muslim teacher in a state-funded comprehensive tells her “there are no gays round here” and she will “burn in hell” if she ever acts on it. (I know because she emailed me, suicidal and begging for help).



This is why blogs are not news.


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## Escargon (Feb 28, 2011)

Xyloxi said:


> Most of Europe seems to be accepting of homosexuality, all of Western Europe tends to be, whereas Eastern Europe isn't so much, but places like the Czech Republic seem to be warming up to it.



*I see that. There are more and more people being in the gay peoples side but sadly here in Sweden theres still many who hates gay people. 

More joining gay peoples side can explain why more and more countries seem to allow gay people do pride parades etc. *


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## zuul (Feb 28, 2011)

Well it's not only Islam, it's something common to the 2 other Abrahamic religions. (May they all eventually disappear and their holy books used as toilet paper. )

But for some reason, there are more violent fundamentalistic Muslims than Christians or Jews.


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## Jin-E (Feb 28, 2011)

Reminds me of the time i read an Amnesty report that dealt with the situation of gay Iraqi's in Shia communities from 2008 onwards. The most reprehensible torture(such as killing them by gluing shut their anus and force feed them drinks that cause diarrhea) and persecution were commited on them from religious militias. 

So yeah, the article doesnt surprise me. At all.


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## Mael (Feb 28, 2011)

zuul said:


> Well it's not only Islam, it's something common to the 2 other Abrahamic religions. (May they all eventually disappear and their holy books used as toilet paper. )
> 
> *But for some reason, there are more violent fundamentalistic Muslims than Christians or Jews*.



Because civic law made those other two Abrahamic religions evolve.


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## Xyloxi (Feb 28, 2011)

Mael said:


> Because civic law made those other two Abrahamic religions evolve.



That and in Western society Christians and Jews tend not to be from backwater places.


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## soulnova (Feb 28, 2011)

zuul said:


> Well it's not only Islam, it's something common to the 2 other Abrahamic religions. (May they all eventually disappear and their holy books used as toilet paper. )
> 
> But for some reason, *there are more violent fundamentalistic Muslims than Christians or Jews.*



Yes, it comes down to this. :/




Mael said:


> Because civic law made those other two Abrahamic religions evolve.



Not that evolved... they still have a way to go. *sigh*


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## Mael (Feb 28, 2011)

soulnova said:


> Not that evolved... they still have a way to go. *sigh*



I'm not convinced.

Save for Chassidic Judaism, most Christian/Jewish sects are pretty good in terms of fairness towards women.

Now for homosexuals...that I can agree.  The one thing the Muslim nations have ahead save for Uganda is the whole killing of them *cough Iran cough*.


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## Aokiji (Feb 28, 2011)

Mael said:


> Because civic law made those other two Abrahamic religions evolve.



No it didn't. The people are more secular and educated.

And I don't see why people keep on bitching about "homophobia". I see gay people on the same level as furries. 

Does that make me a homophobe?

I think looking down on people for their sexual activities is not a big deal especially if it is outlandish, as long as they don't go the "crusify him" or "eww, go away" route which admittedly, many "mudslims" do.


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## Tsukiyomi (Feb 28, 2011)

Aokiji said:


> And I don't see why people keep on bitching about "homophobia". I see gay people on the same level as furries.



In what way are homosexuals like furries?


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## Mael (Feb 28, 2011)

Aokiji said:


> *
> And I don't see why people keep on bitching about "homophobia". I see gay people on the same level as furries.
> 
> Does that make me a homophobe?*



No it just makes you obscenely retarded.


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## Mael (Feb 28, 2011)

Oh you troll you. :33


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 28, 2011)

Mael said:


> No it just makes you obscenely retarded.



It makes him both a homophobe and obscenely retarded rather than just one of the two.


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## Hand Banana (Feb 28, 2011)

Tsukiyomi said:


> In what way are homosexuals like furries?



They both get you ousted from any political jobs.


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## soulnova (Feb 28, 2011)

Mael said:


> I'm not convinced.
> 
> Save for Chassidic Judaism, most Christian/Jewish sects are pretty good in terms of fairness towards women.



Wasn't taking that into account. And even still, I know plenty of catholics and Christians with the whole "women should marry and have babiez ". Sure, not as hardcore as Muslims, but it is kind of annoying.



> Now for homosexuals...that I can agree.  The one thing the Muslim nations have ahead save for Uganda is the whole killing of them *cough Iran cough*.





Hand Banana said:


> They both get you ousted from any political jobs.



Pretty much. 


lol at furries reference.


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## Coteaz (Feb 28, 2011)

The Middle East is just a terrible influence on any culture.



Mael said:


> No it just makes you obscenely retarded.


No, it doesn't. 

Why is hating furries acceptable, when hating ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) isn't? Seriously.


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## Hand Banana (Feb 28, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> The Middle East is just a terrible influence on any culture.
> 
> 
> No, it doesn't.
> ...



LOL love you bro.

But to answer the question. At the end of the day you can stop being a furries.


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## Coteaz (Feb 28, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> But to answer the question. At the end of the day you can stop being a furries.


The same way you can stop being gay, right? 

Notice: This message is not indicative of support or derision for either furries or homosexuals.


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## Hand Banana (Feb 28, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> The same way you can stop being gay, right?
> 
> Notice: This message is not indicative of support or derision for either furries or homosexuals.



Noooo. As a man, once you accept dick up your butt, ain't no comin' back.


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## Coteaz (Feb 28, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> Noooo. As a man, once you accept dick up your butt, ain't no comin' back.


Some could say the same for that wild tiger-suit romp last weekend.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 28, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> No, it doesn't.
> 
> Why is hating furries acceptable, when hating ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) isn't? Seriously.



For starters a fur fetish is not a sexual ortientation, whereas homosexuality is.


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## Psycho (Feb 28, 2011)

zuul said:


> Well it's not only Islam, it's something common to the 2 other Abrahamic religions. (May they all eventually disappear and their holy books used as toilet paper. )
> 
> But for some reason, there are more *violent fundamentalistic Muslims than Christians or Jews*.



probably due to segregation and islam as we know it is pretty newer than christianity and much newer than judaism

and in all fairness, islam can't be attributed 1/100 of the body count attributed to either christianity or judaism


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## Coteaz (Feb 28, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> For starters a fur fetish is not a sexual ortientation, whereas homosexuality is.


Oh, okay. In other words, it's fine to hate shit if it isn't mainstream.

Thanks bro.


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## Hand Banana (Feb 28, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> Some could say the same for that wild tiger-suit romp last weekend.



The worst that can happen, is your man card is pulled and you resign from your job. But that's usually after taking two pain killers.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 28, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> Oh, okay. In other words, it's fine to hate shit if it isn't mainstream.
> 
> Thanks bro.



I'm not saying it's alright, I think it's wrong to discriminate against anyone for their private activities that don't harm anyone. I wouldn't refuse a job to someone because they like to dress up as animals.

I'm merely talking about legal protection. Since it's not officially classified as a sexual orientation (for more reasons than just the number of furries out there) one really cannot compare it to homosexuality.


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## Hand Banana (Feb 28, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> I'm not saying it's alright, I think it's wrong to discriminate against anyone for their private activities that don't harm anyone. I wouldn't refuse a job to someone because they like to dress up as animals.



There is nothing mentally stable about a man who dresses up as animals to have sex. Nothing at all. No way Jose.


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## Coteaz (Feb 28, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> I'm not saying it's alright, I think it's wrong to discriminate against anyone for their private activities that don't harm anyone. I wouldn't refuse a job to someone because they like to dress up as animals.
> 
> I'm merely talking about legal protection. Since it's not officially classified as a sexual orientation (for more reasons than just the number of furries out there) one really cannot compare it to homosexuality.


Pretty much. 

It should be noted, however, that merely holding homosexuality in the same vein as fur-fetishes (i.e. strange and disturbing) does not make someone "retarded" or "terrible." We don't all have to be rainbow-shitting bundles of love in order to maintain a decent society.


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## Saufsoldat (Feb 28, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> There is nothing mentally stable about a man who dresses up as animals to have sex. Nothing at all. No way Jose.



Do you know if there aren't people you know who engage in such activities?


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## Hand Banana (Feb 28, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Do you know if there aren't people you know who engage in such activities?



Sure do. Now for your next question. I'm ready, hit me bro.


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## Tsukiyomi (Feb 28, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> There is nothing mentally stable about a man who dresses up as animals to have sex. Nothing at all. No way Jose.



So if someone is completely bland and normal in every aspect of their life except for that then there is "nothing mentally stable" about them at all?  How do you figure?

Having a particular harmless fetish doesn't mean you are mentally unstable, it just means you have a particular harmless fetish.


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## Hand Banana (Feb 28, 2011)

Tsukiyomi said:


> So if someone is completely bland and normal in every aspect of their life except for that then there is "nothing mentally stable" about them at all?  How do you figure?



Checking their facebook. Next question bro.


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## Tsukiyomi (Feb 28, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> Checking their facebook. Next question bro.



Unless they have pictures of themselves having sex in an animal costume on the front of the Facebook page I'm not sure what exactly you're getting at.


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## Hand Banana (Feb 28, 2011)

Tsukiyomi said:


> Unless they have pictures of themselves having sex in an animal costume on the front of the Facebook page I'm not sure what exactly you're getting at.



Hey bro you asked me the question, I answered it. Anything else?


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Feb 28, 2011)

Someone should create a Furry encyclopedia. Do Furries only want sex with Furry like people or are they people who merely have the fetish to some times have sex with people dressed a bit like animals? Is it a complete life-style or just a minor fetish? A lot about Furries is shrouded in obscurity.


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## Tsukiyomi (Feb 28, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> Hey bro you asked me the question, I answered it. Anything else?



You didn't answer anything.


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## Hand Banana (Feb 28, 2011)

Tsukiyomi said:


> You didn't answer anything.



I did. I said by checking their facebook page.


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## Tsukiyomi (Feb 28, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> I did. I said by checking their facebook page.





> So if someone is completely bland and normal in every aspect of their  life except for that then there is "nothing mentally stable" about them  at all?  How do you figure?



Checking their Facebook page doesn't teach you anything the mental stability of furries in general.  And that is assuming that their profile is public and you can get anything from it at all.


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## Elim Rawne (Feb 28, 2011)

Tsukiyomi said:


> Checking their Facebook page doesn't teach you anything the mental stability of furries in general.  And that is assuming that their profile is public and you can get anything from it at all.



Jesus, you`re daft. He`s trolling you.


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## Deleted member 84471 (Feb 28, 2011)

Psycho said:


> probably due to segregation and islam as we know it is pretty newer than christianity and much newer than judaism
> 
> and in all fairness, islam can't be attributed 1/100 of the body count attributed to either christianity or judaism


In all fairness, yes it fucking can.



Aokiji said:


> And I don't see why people keep on bitching about "homophobia".


 

Try reading the article knobchops.


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## Wolfarus (Feb 28, 2011)

So how did a topic about islamic/muslim homophobia turn into a debate about furries?


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## Tsukiyomi (Feb 28, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> Jesus, you`re daft. He`s trolling you.



I'm bored and killing time, if it bothers you that much just go to a different thread.


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## Mael (Feb 28, 2011)

For the record folks, Coteaz was trolling.


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## Mintaka (Feb 28, 2011)

> There is nothing mentally stable about a man who dresses up as animals to have sex. Nothing at all. No way Jose.


You do realize that 99 percent of furries don't do that right?


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## Shukumei (Feb 28, 2011)

Tokoyami said:


> You do realize that 99 percent of furries don't do that right?


Not according to CSI! 

... Remember, kids, everything you see on TV is _true_!


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## Ennoea (Feb 28, 2011)

Can we get back on topic?


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## Soda (Feb 28, 2011)

Aokiji said:


> No it didn't. The people are more secular and educated.
> 
> And I don't see why people keep on bitching about "homophobia". I see gay people on the same level as furries.
> 
> ...



Maybe people are bitching about the muslim's homophobia because they are MURDERING people for being gay? You know in places like Iran and Uganda they literally have gay witch hunts right? I realize you might be referring to the US where it can be blown out of proportion a lot but still, god damn man.

And are you implying with the furry statement that you don't see homosexuality as a sexual orientation but an outlandish, extreme sexual fetish? So it's okay to look down on them and discriminate against them because of this?

I'm not sure if you're a homophobe or not but you sure as hell look like one. You look like an idiot in this post man. I hope you don't think talking like you don't give a shit if you're being stupid or not makes you sound cool.


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## NeophyteNihilist (Feb 28, 2011)

I read this article and was actually jealous of England.  Sure a good section of it's capital actively homophobic, but that's only half of one city.  In the US, entire regions are known for similar levels of intolerance against homosexuals.  I'm not saying such discrimination shouldn't be actively fought, but it sounds like England is doing things right overall.  

I was surprised by the fact that Muslim youth are actually getting less tolerant.  I was under the impresion the opposite trend was true for every group on this side of the pond.


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## Fruits Basket Fan (Feb 28, 2011)

Christians in the US, unfortunately, are still strongly against gay marriages.


My state voted out the judges who legalized gay marriages.....


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## Bioness (Feb 28, 2011)

Jesus why do these topics always turn into shitstorms of retards and opinionated bias.


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## Eru Lawliet (Feb 28, 2011)

I'll never understand why some people have problems with homosexuals.
Who cares whether someone is attracted to men or women? Don't they have their own problems? It's none of their business.

I live in a city with a very large gay community.
At the same time, we have a lot of churches. I think there're about 200 churches in total, thereof about 100 Roman-Catholic ones. So I guess the Christian community isn't that small either.
I've never heard of any problems between these communities.

I don't understand why there're people, who make such a fuss about the sexual orientation of others and even go so far as to hurt them over something so insignificant.


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## Escargon (Mar 1, 2011)

*^

They are just afraid "of the weird". Remember those days wearing glasses was stupid and nerdy? I wear glasses and i know. 
"Glasophobia" everyone who weared glasses in the 90s were retarded nerds. Thanks god nerd is a trend now. Everyone wears glasses and i hope it will continue forever. 
People didnt get that wearing glasses was because your sight was kinda wrong, not because you were a nerd. 
Same people hating gay people for no reason at all.*


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## impersonal (Mar 1, 2011)

Escargon said:


> *Its not only muslims who fear gay people. Most of the countries around Europe thinks that homosexuality is a disease.*



There's no such thing as a culture !! All people make completely independent choices!1!!1!!!





			
				Escargon said:
			
		

> Remember those days wearing glasses was stupid and nerdy?


This is still the case, you're just not among 10 years old anymore.




			
				soulnova said:
			
		

> zuul said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stop it with the bullshit already. It's not just "more". The quasi-totality of Muslims dislikes or hates gays. It's not that there are more Muslim fundamentalists, it's that, in Europe at least, Muslims in general are much more fundamentalist than Christians.

I can't insist enough that people should be judged on a case-by-case basis, but that shouldn't prevent you from judging ideologies. Fascism may not be, in theory, that bad, but almost all of its proponents support the worst possible kinds of fascism. Islam is to a large degree the same in that it doesn't _have_ to be bad, but in the majority of cases, it _is_ bad. Which does not mean all Muslims are bad people. They're very often good people with a terrible ideology.

I wish you could say that without people calling you a "racist".


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## kakashi4ever (Mar 1, 2011)

Eru Lawliet said:


> I'll never understand why some people have problems with homosexuals.
> Who cares whether someone is attracted to men or women? Don't they have their own problems? It's none of their business.
> 
> I live in a city with a very large gay community.
> ...


 
Some homosexuals need to be punished specially who choose their victims from children like this small kid who was infected with Herpes.


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## impersonal (Mar 1, 2011)

Case in point. Kakashi, what about heterosexual Muslims who choose their victims among children? In _Saudi Arabia_ for example, paedophilia is encouraged by the absence of a legal marrying age. This is not the case in any other area of the world, and people who tolerate homosexuals certainly do not tolerate paedophiles. Sorry to bring this up _again_, but you're the one who started discussing paedophilia.

Political correctness has gone way too far in Europe with regards of religion. It used to be okay to criticize a religion. Catholicism took it for decades. Then, Muslim immigration happened, and criticism of religion was increasingly associated with racism. That was a bad thing, because in effect it restricted freedom of speech. There is now a backslash -- and this is healthy. People need to state clearly what is good and what is bad.


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## kakashi4ever (Mar 1, 2011)

impersonal said:


> Case in point. Kakashi, what about heterosexual Muslims who choose their victims among children? In _Saudi Arabia_ for example, paedophilia is encouraged by the absence of a legal marrying age. This is not the case in any other area of the world, and people who tolerate homosexuals certainly do not tolerate paedophiles. Sorry to bring this up _again_, but you're the one who started discussing paedophilia.
> 
> Political correctness has gone way too far in Europe with regards of religion. It used to be okay to criticize a religion. Catholicism took it for decades. Then, Muslim immigration happened, and criticism of religion was increasingly associated with racism. That was a bad thing, because in effect it restricted freedom of speech. There is now a backslash -- and this is healthy. People need to state clearly what is good and what is bad.


 
You're talking about the governmental system "freedom of opinion" which is out of our hands ..
Baidofelia You are talking about centuries ago..you remind me of some one still thinking that saudis riding camels in 2011


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## ximkoyra (Mar 1, 2011)

impersonal said:


> There's no such thing as a culture !! All people make completely independent choices!1!!1!!!



How funny that when a Muslim is guilty of a sexual crime it must be because of their culture/religion, but when someone else is guilty of the same thing, it's because they're a bad seed.  

Maybe European Muslims should just start mass raping children if they ever want to be accepted by you guys.  I don't see calls for debates on whether Catholicism is "welcome" in European countries and there's not really much outrage over these news stories that seem to pop up once every couple of weeks about people raping their own daughters, so there must be some sort of merit to it. 






> I can't insist enough that people should be judged on a case-by-case basis, but that shouldn't prevent you from judging ideologies. Fascism may not be, in theory, that bad, but almost all of its proponents support the worst possible kinds of fascism. Islam is to a large degree the same in that it doesn't _have_ to be bad, but in the majority of cases, it _is_ bad. Which does not mean all Muslims are bad people. They're very often good people with a terrible ideology.
> 
> I wish you could say that without people calling you a "racist".



Wow, bigotry under the guise of intellectualism.

If this is the mainstream line of thought of the educated, then I can't imagine how vile the hicks are. . . . . .and to think I actually respected you.  My mistake

Enjoy your witch-hunt


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## Saufsoldat (Mar 1, 2011)

ximkoyra said:


> How funny that when a Muslim is guilty of a sexual crime it must be because of their culture/religion, but when someone else is guilty of the same thing, it's because they're a bad seed.



Maybe that's because western culture strongly discourages rape and gender inequality in general whereas misogyny seems to be mainstream in the middle-east?



> Maybe European Muslims should just start mass raping children if they ever want to be accepted by you guys.  I don't see calls for debates on whether Catholicism is "welcome" in European countries and there's not really much outrage over these news stories that seem to pop up once every couple of weeks about people raping their own daughters, so there must be some sort of merit to it.



Then you're just not looking. Catholicism has been under fire for centuries and in case you're referring to these Fritzl stories, there have been two (in numbers: 2) so far in Europe, so if you see them pop up every few weeks, you might have Alzheimer's disease. Your biased perception of reality does you little good if you actually hope to convince others of your opinion.



> Wow, bigotry under the guise of intellectualism.
> 
> If this is the mainstream line of thought of the educated, then I can't imagine how vile the hicks are. . . . . .and to think I actually respected you.  My mistake
> 
> Enjoy your witch-hunt



Good job addressing absolutely no point that was mentioned. Enjoy your persecutory delusions.


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## Eru Lawliet (Mar 1, 2011)

kakashi4ever said:


> Some homosexuals need to be punished specially who choose their victims from children like this small kid who was infected with Herpes.



Pedophiles and rapists exist among homosexuals and heterosexuals alike.
Of course those who commit crimes against other people have to be punished.


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## Outlandish (Mar 1, 2011)

freud was right, homosexuality is an illnes.


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## Saufsoldat (Mar 1, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> freud was right, homosexuality is an illnes.



Have we had even a single muslim in this thread whose views would qualify for the 21st century?


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## Mael (Mar 1, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> freud was right, homosexuality is an illnes.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_n5E7feJHw0&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]



Saufsoldat said:


> Have we had even a single muslim in this thread whose views would qualify for the 21st century?



In this thread?  Nope.

But I can promise you there are Muslims in this forum that have 21st Century views.:33


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## Elim Rawne (Mar 1, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> freud was right, homosexuality is an illnes.



Somewhere, a psychology prof is crying.


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## Hinako (Mar 1, 2011)

I can taste an honor killing coming from a mile away, it doesn't look good for the so-called gay Muslims.


...This isn't in any way an intent to hate on gays.


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## Mael (Mar 1, 2011)

Hinako said:


> I can taste an honor killing coming from a mile away, it doesn't look good for the so-called gay Muslims.
> 
> 
> ...This isn't in any way an intent to hate on gays.



We know.  You're just acknowledging a truth.

Check the Iranian newspapers soon.


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## Saufsoldat (Mar 1, 2011)

Mael said:


> We know.  You're just acknowledging a truth.
> 
> Check the Iranian newspapers soon.



Silly Yank, Iran doesn't have homosexuals.


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## Glued (Mar 1, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Have we had even a single muslim in this thread whose views would qualify for the 21st century?



Well what do you want exactly, I'm against the Death Penalty as a whole and frankly I think people should be left to their business.

Hell its not even a subject I want to talk about. Most muslims don't even discuss these topics.


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## Mael (Mar 1, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Silly Yank, Iran doesn't have homosexuals.


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## Saufsoldat (Mar 1, 2011)

Ben Grimm said:


> Well what do you want exactly, I'm against the Death Penalty as a whole and frankly I think people should be left to their business.



An admirable stance that most muslims do not seem to share. So you don't think homosexuality is a disease or generally inferior to heterosexuality?



> Hell its not even a subject I want to talk about. Most muslims don't even discuss these topics.



Maybe you should discuss these topics then, as not discussing them apparently leads to homophobia.


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## Glued (Mar 1, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> An admirable stance that most muslims do not seem to share. So you don't think homosexuality is a disease or generally inferior to heterosexuality?



A disease, not really. Some people are just born that way. Though I remember reading a psychology book that most people are bisexuals and how attracted you are to either sex is different for most people.


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## Outlandish (Mar 1, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> Somewhere, a psychology prof is crying.



or he's laughing in agreement.

anyway i'll be back in a few months to wind you up again and collect about 50 negs


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## On and On (Mar 1, 2011)

Bottom line - law enforcement needs to step it up and actually prosecute these bigots to the fullest extent, gays needs to be more careful (who the fuck walks home by themselves in an urban area and doesn't consider getting mugged or killed a possibility?) and learn to fight back, and there needs to be something done to teach people that bigotry toward gay people is no fucking better then bigotry toward someone's ethnic background or how or where they were raised.

If someone ever jumps me because I'm bi they better fucking kill me, otherwise I'm coming back with a gat. Fuck it.


----------



## Xyloxi (Mar 1, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> freud was right, homosexuality is an illnes.



Freud is bullshit, I don't see how someone can take that stuff seriously. How is homosexuality an illness, as it isn't harmful at all?


----------



## Hinako (Mar 1, 2011)

It is harmful to your mental health as most people around the world don't fully accept such a lifestyle. 

Please note that I am not trolling, a lot of people really believe this.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Mar 1, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> or he's laughing in agreement.
> 
> anyway i'll be back in a few months to wind you up again and collect about 50 negs



Ha, like you're smart enough to troll.

They don't have the internet in the bronze age civilisation you seemingly come from.


----------



## Xyloxi (Mar 1, 2011)

Hinako said:


> It is harmful to your mental health as most people around the world don't fully accept such a lifestyle.
> 
> Please note that I am not trolling, a lot of people really believe this.



That would be true if I did not live in the developed world, seeing as I do and I have the socio-economic mobility to mix with people who are more likely to accept my sexuality than not, I can't say its been much of a problem for me. To be honest, dyspraxia has been far more problematic for me than being  homosexual ever has.


----------



## Mael (Mar 1, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:


> Ha, like you're smart enough to troll.
> 
> They don't have the internet in the bronze age civilisation you seemingly come from.



False.

Allah "willed" the Internet over there.


----------



## Xyloxi (Mar 1, 2011)

Mael said:


> False.
> 
> Allah "willed" the Internet over there.



What do you expect from Pakistan? Its pretty much the special ed nation of South Asia, unless you include Burma that is.


----------



## Narcissus (Mar 1, 2011)

By the will of Allah, may the ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) perish from the Earth into eternal damnation and hellfire! And people should ignore the immorality of these Muslim teachings because it would mean society would learn of corruption in religion, and we can't have that!


Coteaz said:


> We don't all have to be rainbow-shitting bundles of love in order to maintain a decent society.



People are free to hold whatever opinion they want. Of course they can disagree with the concept. However, when they make their opinions public, and/or act on those opinions, they place themselves up for criticism. Saying nonsense like:


Aokiji said:


> I think looking down on people for their sexual activities is not a big deal especially if it is outlandish



makes you look like a bigot. Who the hell is he to say he has the right to look down on other people?

I can't put up with that ignorant drivel.


Mael said:


> For the record folks, Coteaz was trolling.



Obviously, but unlike Outlandish and Hand Banana, some people are good enough at trolling that others might not pick up on it and believe what the troll is saying, so sometimes it's ok to refute them.


----------



## Hand Banana (Mar 1, 2011)

Narcissus said:


> Obviously, but unlike Outlandish and Hand Banana, some people are good enough at trolling that others might not pick up on it and believe what the troll is saying, so sometimes it's ok to refute them.



 Ah come on man, I'm not a good troll? I come up with new material every day.


----------



## impersonal (Mar 1, 2011)

ximkoyra said:


> How funny that when a Muslim is guilty of a sexual crime it must be because of their culture/religion, but when someone else is guilty of the same thing, it's because they're a bad seed.


When a Muslim is guilty of a sexual crime he is first and foremost personally responsible. As always, with any crime.

However, cultural factors impact how people behave, leading to _statistical_ differences among different populations (which I do not associate to race but to economical and cultural differences).

Now that may sound overly intellectual, but this is precise, while you're just spouting simplistic bullshit in an attempt to insult.



ximkoyra said:


> Maybe European Muslims should just start mass raping children if they ever want to be accepted by you guys.  I don't see calls for debates on whether Catholicism is "welcome" in European countries and there's not really much outrage over these news stories that seem to pop up once every couple of weeks about people raping their own daughters, so there must be some sort of merit to it.


Sexism and homophobia are statistically (far) more prevalent among Muslims. You counter with anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence is always irrelevant.

The observation stated earlier should not lead to the ostracism of Muslims, but to constructive criticism of how Islam is practiced, and of the Muslim religion in general. This critical phase has largely been done for Christianism. It is not being done for Islam due to fears of racism... This is not a good thing. 


ximkoyra said:


> Wow, bigotry under the guise of intellectualism.
> 
> If this is the mainstream line of thought of the educated, then I can't imagine how vile the hicks are. . . . . .and to think I actually respected you.  My mistake
> 
> Enjoy your witch-hunt


You respected me... Well thanks =)
In any case, you don't seem to have any arguments there, so I don't know what to say.


----------



## ximkoyra (Mar 1, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Maybe that's because western culture strongly discourages rape and gender inequality in general whereas misogyny seems to be mainstream in the middle-east?



Why must the sampling of Muslim behavior be from the Middle East?  Why not take American Muslims as your sample?  What about middle to upper class UK Muslims?  Don't you believe that socioeconomic factors have any influence in this sort of behavior?  If you want to use Middle Eastern behavior as indicative of what Muslim behavior stands for, then you should be using Africa as your sample of Christian behavior instead of middle to upper class European residents. 

Also, the fact that countries which practice shariah law prescribe the death penalty for rape doesn't tell you that rape is discouraged?  Looks like you already have your conclusions made up, regardless of any facts or analysis.



> Then you're just not looking. Catholicism has been under fire for centuries and in case you're referring to these Fritzl stories, there have been two (in numbers: 2) so far in Europe, so if you see them pop up every few weeks, you might have Alzheimer's disease. Your biased perception of reality does you little good if you actually hope to convince others of your opinion.



Again, are there debates as to whether Catholicism is "welcome" in Europe?  

And I don't mean cases exactly like Fritzl.  I mean overall incestuous crimes and crimes against children.  For example, here's a recent one that is local to me:








impersonal said:


> When a Muslim is guilty of a sexual crime he is first and foremost personally responsible. As always, with any crime.
> 
> However, cultural factors impact how people behave, leading to _statistical_ differences among different populations (which I do not associate to race but to economical and cultural differences).
> 
> Now that may sound overly intellectual, but this is precise, while you're just spouting simplistic bullshit in an attempt to insult.




Yes, I was trying to insult your superiority complex.  I know that what your basically saying is that being Muslim predisposes one to being more accepting of sexual crime because of the environment that Islam supposedly creates.  I just can't believe that someone as intelligent and thoughtful as yourself would be making such hasty, surface level conclusions.

It's true that how Islam is practiced in Saudi Arabia and tribal Pakistan can be blamed heavily for some dubious behavior.  It's not true that how Islam is practiced in Egypt and metropolitan Pakistan is responsible for their behavior towards women.  

Social and economic situations as well as observing how Islam is being practiced are things that will actually influence and change the culture.  You don't have Muslim men in America trying to marry more than one wife or try to prevent women from working.  Simply blaming Islam for being the source of an intolerable culture is disingenuous.




> You respected me... Well thanks =)
> In any case, you don't seem to have any arguments there, so I don't know what to say.



Because I realized that if even educated people like you are starting the conversation with, "Islam is bad", then there really is no room for proper criticism.  One by one, your leaders are resigning themselves to the idea that multiculturalism is a failed institute.  If you want to deport your Muslim populace and stop Islam from being practiced in your countries, then I will support you.  What I won't support is ostracizing and making life difficult for Muslims while at the same time calling yourselves free and tolerable societies.  You can't be both


----------



## Outlandish (Mar 1, 2011)

Why didn't you post the counter argument as well ? 



> Are Muslims responsible for a huge rise in homophobic attacks in East London?
> DateMonday, February 28, 2011
> 
> Johann Hari has written an article for the gay magazine Attitude that he has posted on his blog, entitled "Can we talk about Muslim homophobia now?", in which he states:
> ...


----------



## Outlandish (Mar 1, 2011)

Mael said:


> False.
> 
> Allah "willed" the Internet over there.



my ancestors were Mongolian lol, well on my fathers side.


----------



## Mael (Mar 1, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> my ancestors were Mongolian lol, well on my fathers side.



Allah willed Genghis Khan...for reals.


----------



## Xyloxi (Mar 1, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> Why didn't you post the counter argument as well ?



He did, he edited it on the first page.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Mar 1, 2011)

Xyloxi said:


> He did, he edited it on the first page.



Yeah, but I didn't post it post it.

Reason is that all polling I've seen holds up the original point: British Muslims are incredibly homophobic.


----------



## Outlandish (Mar 1, 2011)

Xyloxi said:


> He did, he edited it on the first page.



yeah but he didn't post it out as well, it pretty much shuts up the claims that the journalist makes. 

having homosexuality tenancies isn't a sin in Islam it's the act of of sodomy (or anything related) that is. Like most acts you have to be caught doing it with 3 reliable witnesses held to account. So just like adultery it's almost impossible to get caught unless you put your self forward. 

I agree that there is ignorance among many communities, but that's more of a human problem, that's the same for corrupt governments that are/were put in place by America/Britain/France.



The Pink Ninja said:


> Yeah, but I didn't post it post it.
> 
> Reason is that all polling I've seen holds up the original point: British Muslims are incredibly homophobic.




Disagreeing with sodomites does not equate homophobia, I have class mates who are homosexual no problem, some of my neighbours are also homosexual we get along great and send them food during any festive times.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 1, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> yeah but he didn't post it out as well, it pretty much shuts up the claims that the journalist makes.
> 
> having homosexuality tenancies isn't a sin in Islam it's the act of of sodomy (or anything related) that is. Like most acts you have to be caught doing it with 3 reliable witnesses held to account. So just like adultery it's almost impossible to get caught unless you put your self forward.
> 
> I agree that there is ignorance among many communities, but that's more of a human problem, that's the same for corrupt governments that are/were put in place by America/Britain/France.



"There's nothing wrong with being left-handed, but if you actually prefer to use your left hand rather than your right hand it's sinful and wrong" 

Great logic you got going there. Newsflash: "Sodomy" is not illegal in the western world and even if two guys fuck each other up the ass and three other people somehow witness it, there's still absolutely nothing wrong with it. If you can't accept that, maybe western society isn't the right thing for you.

Homophobia is running rampant among muslims, you prove that more with every post you make.



Outlandish said:


> Disagreeing with sodomites does not equate homophobia, I have class mates who are homosexual no problem, some of my neighbours are also homosexual we get along great and send them food during any festive times.



Guess what, they probably have sodomized someone or have been sodomized by someone.


----------



## Xyloxi (Mar 1, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> yeah but he didn't post it out as well, it pretty much shuts up the claims that the journalist makes.
> 
> having homosexuality tenancies isn't a sin in Islam it's the act of of sodomy (or anything related) that is. Like most acts you have to be caught doing it with 3 reliable witnesses held to account. So just like adultery it's almost impossible to get caught unless you put your self forward.
> 
> ...



The Bible claims homosexual acts to be a sin as well, but the C of E overlooks that to fit into our modern society, so why can't Muslims do the same? 

Of course some of these corrupt governments are problematic, but those extremist opinions would have had to exist in the first place. Homosexuality isn't totally unaccepted in the Middle East anyway, at least not in liberal democracies.

I'm not suggesting you're going to go out and stab people for their sexual orientation, but saying homosexuality is an illness does not present yourself in a positive light.


----------



## Kazuma the Shell Bullet (Mar 1, 2011)

ximkoyra said:


> Also, the fact that countries which practice shariah law prescribe the death penalty for rape doesn't tell you that rape is discouraged?



They do prescribe the death penalty for rape. Just not for the rapist. They kill the victim for "tempting" the man


----------



## kakashi4ever (Mar 2, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> "There's nothing wrong with being left-handed, but if you actually prefer to use your left hand rather than your right hand it's sinful and wrong"
> 
> Great logic you got going there. Newsflash: "Sodomy" is not illegal in the western world and even if two guys fuck each other up the ass and three other people somehow witness it, there's still absolutely nothing wrong with it. If you can't accept that, maybe western society isn't the right thing for you.
> 
> ...


 


Mael said:


> Allah willed Genghis Khan...for reals.


 
Mr and Mrs Saufsoldat

lesson 1: you two obviously don't know what to say because all you do is keep repeating words and sentence like parrot which is sick and bored 


lesson 2: If the word comes from fools,do not respond to them  because they're just like a donkey carrying valuable books and never understand it. 


lesson 3: Most of People who dont have a life or Carrer,they put the blame on others in a Barbarian Way.so get a life or get some therapy..







Maybe this will helps you to take rid of all your economy problems
Wishing you a happy marriage with all my respect  ​ 
The end of the lesson ​


----------



## impersonal (Mar 2, 2011)

ximkoyra said:


> What I won't support is ostracizing and making life difficult for Muslims while at the same time calling yourselves free and tolerable societies.  You can't be both


You can't have a "free and tolerable society" when a large part of the population is sexist/homophobic. That's the core of the issue here. Again, look at what happened in France with Christianism. It was heavily criticized for 2 centuries, and still is now. Whenever the pope makes a declaration, you'll see tons of comments about how he is a moron and religion is bad.



ximkoyra said:


> Why must the sampling of Muslim behavior be from the Middle East? Why not take American Muslims as your sample?  What about middle to upper class UK Muslims?  Don't you believe that socioeconomic factors have any influence in this sort of behavior?  If you want to use Middle Eastern behavior as indicative of what Muslim behavior stands for, then you should be using Africa as your sample of Christian behavior instead of middle to upper class European residents.


That's a relatively good point, but the question here is how is Islam practiced in Europe. It is practised by people originating from the middle east (recent immigration) and who are for the most part neither middle or upper class. You are right in saying that this changes when these immigrants get richer -- but this is largely because when you get richer, you get better integrated in your country's culture.



ximkoyra said:


> Also, the fact that countries which practice shariah law prescribe the death penalty for rape doesn't tell you that rape is discouraged? Looks like you already have your conclusions made up, regardless of any facts or analysis.


For the man or the woman? In any case, the point is that the Muslim culture, as present in the middle east and to a large degree in Europe, encourages sexism. It does not encourage rape per se. But sexism can lead to rape. That was the reasoning, and you're not responding to that. That said, it is true that justifying that formally would be difficult, due to combined requirement of crime statistics per socio-economic category, per culture and per race... and even then there are pervasive factors (eg a high presence of sexist bastards will influence other people).



ximkoyra said:


> Again, are there debates as to whether Catholicism is "welcome" in Europe?


Yes. There's been more than 2 centuries of that in France, with a pretty violent start during the revolution. For the record, though, I do not agree with Sarkozy's project of "a great debate on Islam". That would obviously be stigmatizing and not productive. What I would like is for people to be able to criticize Islam like they can Catholicism. Such a sort of "background criticism" would allow for a change of mentalities.



ximkoyra said:


> And I don't mean cases exactly like Fritzl.  I mean overall incestuous crimes and crimes against children.  For example, here's a recent one that is local to me:


That is still anecdotal.



ximkoyra said:


> You don't have Muslim men in America trying to marry more than one wife or try to prevent women from working.  Simply blaming Islam for being the source of an intolerable culture is disingenuous.



There's a misunderstanding there. I'm not saying reading the qur'an will turn you into a sexist bastard. I'm saying that, in general, Islam comes with a cultural package that involves sexism and homophobia. Catholicism comes with homophobia, though less intense; it used to come with antisemitism as well. etc. Can this cultural package change? Obviously yes. I'm not saying it's Islam that is _essentially_ like that, a religion is what people make of it.


----------



## Xyloxi (Mar 2, 2011)

kakashi4ever said:


> Mr and Mrs Saufsoldat
> 
> lesson 1: you two obviously don't know what to say because all you do is keep repeating words and sentence like parrot which is sick and bored
> 
> ...



So, hows that lack of civil rights thing going?


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 2, 2011)

kakashi4ever said:


> Mr and Mrs Saufsoldat
> 
> lesson 1: you two obviously don't know what to say because all you do is keep repeating words and sentence like parrot which is sick and bored
> 
> ...



Who exactly do you think I'm parroting? I am very much convinced that my opinions are my own and that it took me a few years to form them. Right now the only fool I see here is you, because you bring absolutely nothing to the table. You don't present any arguments, you don't refute any arguments, all you add is ad hominem attacks. Please, point out where exactly I am wrong.

Also I do not believe in marriage and I'm not homosexual, so a gay marriage would be quite unlikely for me. 



> The end of the lesson



If that's your idea of a lesson I can only hope you'll never get close to a school.


----------



## Mael (Mar 2, 2011)

kakashi4ever said:


> Mr and Mrs Saufsoldat
> 
> lesson 1: you two obviously don't know what to say because all you do is keep repeating words and sentence like parrot which is sick and bored
> 
> ...



Hey I remember you.  You're the butthurt newbie who couldn't accept the fact Saudi Arabia sucks and is the cause for half of this Islamic fundamentalist violence.  I pray you're not one of those Wahabbi folks either.


----------



## impersonal (Mar 2, 2011)

kakashi4ever said:


> You are talking about centuries ago..you remind me of some one still thinking that saudis riding camels in 2011


In present day Saudi Arabia, it is legal to marry an 8 years old girl. It may have been worse centuries ago, I don't know.


----------



## T.D.A (Mar 2, 2011)

East London is just a poor area, with an ethnic minority, mostly Bangladeshis, that's why you get crime like this, the ones that carry out the attacks are the uneducated.


----------



## Xyloxi (Mar 2, 2011)

Mael said:


> Hey I remember you.  You're the butthurt newbie who couldn't accept the fact Saudi Arabia sucks and is the cause for half of this Islamic fundamentalist violence.  I pray you're not one of those Wahabbi folks either.



Its funny because said butthurt n00blet is female as well.


----------



## abcd (Mar 2, 2011)

Xyloxi said:


> Its funny because said butthurt n00blet is female as well.



patriotism is a very powerful weapon.


----------



## Miss Fortune (Mar 2, 2011)

Gay pride parade escorted by military FTW.


----------



## kakashi4ever (Mar 2, 2011)

impersonal said:


> In present day Saudi Arabia, it is legal to marry an 8 years old girl. It may have been worse centuries ago, I don't know.



Wooooooow then why dont they but it in guinness world records  
Im gonna marry a 90 years old man so i can become Famous woman


----------



## Xyloxi (Mar 3, 2011)

kakashi4ever said:


> Wooooooow then why dont they but it in guinness world records
> Im gonna marry a 90 years old man so i can become Famous woman



Marry me instead in the UK! It might be a loveless marraige, but you'll get to drive, work, vote, not just make sammiches and have reproductive rights!

What do you say to that? :33


----------



## Sanity Check (Mar 3, 2011)

Homophobia sexual repression***.

Fix'd


----------



## Ennoea (Mar 3, 2011)

Homophobia is rampant among the British Muslims in the UK but actual Homphobic attacks don't occur as much as you'd think. I know quite a few gay students from Muslim backgrounds and while they do get sneered at alot by other muslims, most of them haven't faced many other issues, well other than the ire of overzealous members of the Muslim society. 

Alos there's a lesbian couple that works at my mothers school who came out recently, there was a ton of gossip about them but most people just mind their own business. Its mostly a familial problem among Muslims. If Gay guys are being attacked in East London then what else is new? Haven't Gay men been easy targets for ages? Poorly educated areas facing economic difficulties always have a high level of Homophobia and racism.

I know there's far too much accepted Homphobia among Muslim populations, especially young men and the government does turn its back on it. The state should crack down if mosques are encouraging Homophobic activities. They need to have a zero tolerance policy but just look at the state of Muslim Britain, the govt doesn't really care. Labour became obsessed with protecting the Mulsim Population in its time and any criticism were seen as Racist. Watching Question Time last week was bad enough, really showed the number well educated apologists among the Muslim population, its truly scary.


----------



## kakashi4ever (Mar 5, 2011)

Xyloxi said:


> Marry me instead in the UK! It might be a loveless marraige, but you'll get to drive, work, vote, not just make sammiches and have reproductive rights!
> 
> What do you say to that? :33


 

Thanks but I got my own Maid and Car driver in K.S.A. and it wont be difficult to find a job .



> not just make sammiches and have reproductive rights!


 
is this some fictional story from the stone age .


----------



## Tkae (Mar 5, 2011)




----------



## kakashi4ever (Mar 5, 2011)




----------



## Karsh (Mar 5, 2011)

Should this suprise anyone?
Islam is still desperately clinging to keeping their strict doctrines afraid to lose a muslim social structure to the global structure. They won't progress if muslims don't allow themselves to.



Escargon said:


> I see that. There are more and more people being in the gay peoples side *but sadly here in Sweden theres still many who hates gay people. *
> More joining gay peoples side can explain why more and more countries seem to allow gay people do pride parades etc.





soulnova said:


> And even still, I know plenty of catholics and Christians with the whole "women should marry and have babiez ". Sure, not as hardcore as Muslims, but it is kind of annoying.



I must be fairly lucky then, because in all the 4 developed western countries I've lived in (including Sweden, Escargon) I've NEVER come accross a dipshit with those views (only when I traveled to places like the Dominican Republic and Egypt did I come accross them). Literally all those I've come to know that have been even a small part of my life in these countries have advocated for respect and equality for all and think of the idea of someone descriminating against someone as revolting.



soulnova said:


> Not that evolved... they still have a way to go. *sigh*



You give them too little credit. Obviously there is infinate room to evolve but you'd be begging to come back to the present if you spent but even one day in the '50s. LOL.


----------



## Talon. (Mar 5, 2011)

Miss Fortune said:


> Gay pride parade escorted by military FTW.



pics or it didnt happen


----------



## peachandbetty (Mar 5, 2011)

Everyone has the right to their beliefs. Muslim texts forbid homosexuality and if that is what they believe, who are we to force them to believe otherwise?

However, the texts make homosexuality subject to Allah's judgement, not human judgement. Actively "punishing" homosexuals for their choices is wrong and people of faith should leave justice to theirr respective Gods and governments. This is why killing of gays in Muslim states shouldn't be contested, because that is THEIR law and every country is entitled to their own legal system. But in England there are no such laws and this should be abided by. If their God is true, then judgement will be delivered as appropriate in the afterlife. But no man has the right to kill.

I will always be ever accepting of gays, because nothing they do hurts me or affects me in any negative way. I'm not going to burn in hell for NOT hating them or by associating with them.  At the same tine, I detest peadophiles openly, but in some cultures such activities are normal. 

What Muslims need to do is accept that they are in a completely different country, a state of the COE. They should abide by the laws of this country, by retain their own beliefs. Beliefs are not laws. And if that is a problem for them, resolution is just an eastern flight away.


----------



## maj1n (Mar 5, 2011)

peachandbetty said:


> Everyone has the right to their beliefs. Muslim texts forbid homosexuality and if that is what they believe, who are we to force them to believe otherwise?
> 
> However, the texts make homosexuality subject to Allah's judgement, not human judgement. Actively "punishing" homosexuals for their choices is wrong and people of faith should leave justice to theirr respective Gods and governments. This is why killing of gays in Muslim states shouldn't be contested, because that is THEIR law and every country is entitled to their own legal system. But in England there are no such laws and this should be abided by. If their God is true, then judgement will be delivered as appropriate in the afterlife. But no man has the right to kill.
> 
> ...


If the texts proscribe 'divine' punishment for homosexuality, that will always lead to people of that religion doing it themselves.

Logically speaking, if God wants to burn gays, he wouldn't have a problem with his followers doing so.

While it is a nice politically correct idea that no matter how wrong a particular religions beliefs are, so long as it is confined to 'beliefs' and not 'actions' everything should be ok, it never happens that way, because our actions are determined by our beliefs.


----------



## legoffjacques (Mar 7, 2011)

peachandbetty said:


> Everyone has the right to their beliefs. Muslim texts forbid homosexuality and if that is what they believe, who are we to force them to believe otherwise?
> 
> However, the texts make homosexuality subject to Allah's judgement, not human judgement. Actively "punishing" homosexuals for their choices is wrong and people of faith should leave justice to theirr respective Gods and governments. This is why killing of gays in Muslim states shouldn't be contested, because that is THEIR law and every country is entitled to their own legal system. But in England there are no such laws and this should be abided by. If their God is true, then judgement will be delivered as appropriate in the afterlife. But no man has the right to kill.
> 
> ...



Are you high? Just because in their opinion homosexuality is wrong doesn't mean is right to kill  them.. Moral relativism is just bullshit. As Western countries we should try to encourage our system of values, that sure isn't the best there is but at least is the most advanced in term of human rights.


----------



## -Dargor- (Mar 7, 2011)

> Can we talk about Muslim homophobia now?


It's called murder in most cases.

Anyway, if they're so pissed about there being gays in your country, just kick the muslims back to their unevolved dirt-holes, see how they like it then.

When you're an immigrant you stfu about the natives' sexuality or simply pick another country to go leech off of.


----------



## Toroxus (Mar 7, 2011)

That's disgusting (The violence against people because of who they love).

I love people who promote peace, love, and caring by saying that other people are evil, vile, and need to die and by acting out that hatred.


----------



## peachandbetty (Mar 9, 2011)

legoffjacques said:


> Are you high? Just because in their opinion homosexuality is wrong doesn't mean is right to kill  them.. Moral relativism is just bullshit. As Western countries we should try to encourage our system of values, that sure isn't the best there is but at least is the most advanced in term of human rights.



Why should the West impose themselves on the East? That's them, we're us. We have our laws and they have theirs. What right do we have to tell them how to run their states? No more than they have the right to tell us how to run ours.

If somebody from another country came to you and said "All Americans must publicly punish women who dress inappropriately" or "All Americans must forsake drinking, gambling and vice", would you feel that is just?

I'm sure there are many Muslims out there saying "we need to try and encourage our system of values".

It's an entirely different arguement, however, if they LIVE in a westernised country and continue to live by the laws of another country. 

And yes, I'm high.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Mar 9, 2011)

peachandbetty said:


> Why should the West impose themselves on the East? That's them, we're us. We have our laws and they have theirs. What right do we have to tell them how to run their states? No more than they have the right to tell us how to run ours.
> 
> If somebody from another country came to you and said "All Americans must publicly punish women who dress inappropriately" or "All Americans must forsake drinking, gambling and vice", would you feel that is just?
> 
> ...



So we shouldn't impose anti-genocide laws on other countries? Until what point should we just stop imposing our values of equality and personal freedoms and at what point does it become justifiable to argue against the needless suffering of human beings?


----------



## Mael (Mar 9, 2011)

peachandbetty said:


> And yes, I'm high.



This is why you lose.


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## peachandbetty (Mar 9, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> So we shouldn't impose anti-genocide laws on other countries? Until what point should we just stop imposing our values of equality and personal freedoms and at what point does it become justifiable to argue against the needless suffering of human beings?



No. We shouldn't. It's not our place to. They are not beneath us, so we have no place to impose them. Parents impose rules on their kids, as their superiors, but on what grounds should we impose our values on another country? Say we found an alien planet who openly practices ritual killings as part of their culture. Would you then turn around to them and say "Stop it, because I say it's wrong? And if you don't we'll make you by force?" 

Can you see where the hypocrisy is here? You're trying to make a country change its laws, the same way they're trying to make their own people change their sexuality by sanctioning it. It is nothing to do with us. Nothing to do with us. The west should just stop be busy bodies and STFU. All you can do is express your opinion, whether or not they chose the share it but military force in the name of enforcing your own ideals is nothing short of terrorism. 

I would never argue against the suffering of others. I will always condemn it and express that opinion but we have no right to force others to change their laws. And more to the point, we have no right to change others' beliefs. We do, however, have every right to enforce our own laws for offenders in our own country that defy OUR laws.


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## Saufsoldat (Mar 9, 2011)

peachandbetty said:


> No. We shouldn't.



You have no problem with genocide? I'll leave that as it is, you're the best argument against moral relativism.


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## peachandbetty (Mar 9, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> You have no problem with genocide? I'll leave that as it is, you're the best argument against moral relativism.



at which point did I say I don't have a problem with it?

If you'd have actually read my post instead of seen what you thought you'd read, I stated that we shouldn't IMPOSE anti-genocide laws on other countries. The same way I wouldn't want some other country imposing anti-gay laws on mine.


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## Saufsoldat (Mar 9, 2011)

peachandbetty said:


> at which point did I say I don't have a problem with it?
> 
> If you'd have actually read my post instead of seen what you thought you'd read, I stated that we shouldn't IMPOSE anti-genocide laws on other countries. The same way I wouldn't want some other country imposing anti-gay laws on mine.



Oh I'm sorry, it's not that you have no problem with it, it's just that you tolerate genocide. Still look abominable to me, but it's your call.


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## Mael (Mar 9, 2011)

In a perfect world, there'd be cultures that we could all live and let live.

However in the real world, some are ultimately more antagonistic than others.  I don't see how we shouldn't interfere in cultures and theocracies that make it a point to hang gays for being gay and diminish common law and women's studies in universities for "being too Western."


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## peachandbetty (Mar 9, 2011)

So, if Britain decided to interfere with America because they administer the death penalty, something that in our moral structure don't advocate, that would be justified?


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## Saufsoldat (Mar 9, 2011)

peachandbetty said:


> So, if Britain decided to interfere with America because they administer the death penalty, something that in our moral structure don't advocate, that would be justified?



Generally yes, but "interfere with" is an extremely vague term.


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## Mael (Mar 9, 2011)

peachandbetty said:


> So, if Britain decided to interfere with America because they administer the death penalty, something that in our moral structure don't advocate, that would be justified?



But the death penalty is based upon a fairly impartial judicial system meant for criminals.

How would the death penalty for a rapist killer be equivalent to the homosexual hangings of Iran?

Tell me how homophobia to the violent extremes in Iran should be left alone?


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## Ennoea (Mar 9, 2011)

> So, if Britain decided to interfere with America because they administer the death penalty, something that in our moral structure don't advocate, that would be justified?



Your logic is strange. Our Morals have nothing to do with the Judicial system in certain US states. There's a difference between the Death penalty being doled out on a mass murdered and us letting states commit genocide against minorities.


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## Karsh (Mar 9, 2011)

I figured this article would be of interest in here:


> Sodomy is punishable by death in Saudi Arabia, but gay life flourishes there. Why it is “easier to be gay than straight” in a society where everyone, homosexual and otherwise, lives in the closet


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## peachandbetty (Mar 9, 2011)

Mael said:


> But the death penalty is based upon a fairly impartial judicial system meant for criminals.
> 
> How would the death penalty for a rapist killer be equivalent to the homosexual hangings of Iran?
> 
> Tell me how homophobia to the violent extremes in Iran should be left alone?



To Iran, homosexuals are criminals. This is just it. We have no right to tell them what is and what is not legal anymore than Briatin have any right to tell America how to enforce it. But in Britain, homosexuality is very legal and nobody has any right to tell us otherwise or act to the contrary, which is the point of this article. 



Ennoea said:


> Your logic is strange. Our Morals have nothing to do with the Judicial system in certain US states. There's a difference between the Death penalty being doled out on a mass murdered and us letting states commit genocide against minorities.



Morals have everything to do with it. You believe that killing homosexuals is morally wrong the way others think the death penalty is morally wrong and how Iranians believe half the things we do are morally wrong. 

How are the criminal group different from any other sub group? No matter what group it is, it's genocide, by absolute definition. And as I mentioned, homosexuals are a criminal group in Iran/Iraq/Pakistan etc. I don't LIKE the fact that they affect corporal punishment on them, but that's THEIR LAWS. All we can do it express our opinions against it, and let them decide what is best for their state under their state faith.


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## Karsh (Mar 9, 2011)

peachandbetty said:


> To Iran, homosexuals are criminals. This is just it. We have no right to tell them what is and what is not legal anymore than Briatin have any right to tell America how to enforce it. But in Britain, homosexuality is very legal and nobody has any right to tell us otherwise or act to the contrary, which is the point of this article.



Hopefully you're at least consistent and won't judge other countries for what they do other than your own then, since you want to abide by that amount of relativism.
I totally agree that each country, ethnicity and even to the individual family and in the single person there are unique ways of thinking about what and which things are right and wrong, this ultimately shows that the lines of what IS actually right and wrong blurr and even dissipate.

But let's be real here.
We're finding out as a global society that to be in harmony with one another is to allow freedom of the individual to a certain degree as long as it doesn't hurt in any way anybody else.

To keep a closed eye and ignore the people down the street beating someone up doesn't help anything, it just allows for that sort of behaviour to spread because others refuse to be vigilant and humane.


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## peachandbetty (Mar 9, 2011)

Karsh said:


> Hopefully you're at least consistent and won't judge other countries for what they do other than your own then, since you want to abide by that amount of relativism.
> I totally agree that each country, ethnicity and even to the individual family and in the single person there are unique ways of thinking about what and which things are right and wrong, this ultimately shows that the lines of what IS actually right and wrong blurr and even dissipate.
> 
> But let's be real here.
> ...



I can't see how such interference can so anything good. If said person was being beaten up and you resonded by beating up the offender, would it then be justified? It's a big old circle of who beats up whom and who has wronged whom. 

There is no wrong or right. Only what we believe is wrong and right. Just how the existance of a deity is based on belief. One can be adamant that something is right or wrong in much the same way someone is adamant that God exists but these "truths" are defined soley by our own perceptions. If they percieve one thing and we percieve another, then fighting about it is useless. You can't make someone someone colourblind see differently and it goes both ways, which is what I think people here are forgetting. Nobody is willing to put themselves in the other shoes because they feel those shoes are smelly and inferior *coughnikecough*

As long as individual countries continue to keep their own laws contained and enforced, then we shouldn't have a problem.

And of course I will always have an opinion of what otehr countries do. I've mentioned this several times. And I will always express that opinion but I will never be as arrogant as to presume that I have the right to challenge that and forcably rectify others' actions according to my own values. The only people I have the right to do that to is my children, and anybody within my own charge.


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## Mael (Mar 9, 2011)

peachandbetty said:


> *To Iran, homosexuals are criminals. This is just it. We have no right to tell them what is and what is not legal anymore than Briatin have any right to tell America how to enforce it.* But in Britain, homosexuality is very legal and nobody has any right to tell us otherwise or act to the contrary, which is the point of this article.



Because it's totally cool to kill someone for liking their own gender.

Yes we do have a right...as human beings trying to work towards a common set of ethics.  Cut this crap out.

I guess the Taliban executing women in soccer arenas on trumped charges is also unacceptable to criticize to, huh?


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## peachandbetty (Mar 9, 2011)

Mael said:


> Because it's totally cool to kill someone for liking their own gender.
> 
> Yes we do have a right...as human beings trying to work towards a common set of ethics.  Cut this crap out.
> 
> I guess the Taliban executing women in soccer arenas on trumped charges is also unacceptable to criticize to, huh?



Okay. Once and for all get this straight. There is a difference between _criticising_ and _enforcing_. It is, in my opinion, right to criticise such activity. And in my opinion is is not "cool" to kill homosexuals simply for being homosexual. That's not the issue.

The issue is that we have _no right_ to force people to believe a set of ethics that are not their own. The British tried doing that to the Irish hundreds of years ago and lo and behold, the relationship is still damaged, there are still bombings and we have most certainly not gotten any closer to peace. And that was merely to contest a sect of faith! Imagine what the consequences would be if we tried to change Iranian laws altogether?

You preach the "common ethic". There will never ever be a common ethic because everybody is different. There is thousands of years of completely diverse history behind any one person's or any cuontry's or cultures ethic and it will take nth times as long to turn those thousands into one singular ethic.


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## Nodonn (Mar 9, 2011)

I love the ''But over there it's perfectly fine to rape children to death, we can't tell them that's wrong!'' argument, really shows the people who have no spine and no morals in the slightest.


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## Karsh (Mar 9, 2011)

peachandbetty said:


> I can't see how such interference can so anything good. If said person was being beaten up and you resonded by beating up the offender, would it then be justified? It's a big old circle of who beats up whom and who has wronged whom.
> 
> There is no wrong or right. Only what we believe is wrong and right. Just how the existance of a deity is based on belief. One can be adamant that something is right or wrong in much the same way someone is adamant that God exists but these "truths" are defined soley by our own perceptions. If they percieve one thing and we percieve another, then fighting about it is useless. You can't make someone someone colourblind see differently and it goes both ways, which is what I think people here are forgetting. Nobody is willing to put themselves in the other shoes because they feel those shoes are smelly and inferior *coughnikecough*
> 
> ...



I never said the way to go about it was to be violent, there are other ways to interfering other than violence, even though force is necessary at times.
Killing people for being homosexual is ludicrous, whether it's some christfag or allahfag who condemns it and for you to not be interested in changing something like that (others hurting others for NOT having hurt others) is passive and is fine, but that's ultimately how other civilizations aren't gonna get it with no course of action.
How can these nations change if they aren't criticized and have others try to show those nations that it's disgraceful and cruel to those poor souls?


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## Mintaka (Mar 9, 2011)

> You can't make someone someone colourblind see differently and it goes  both ways, which is what I think people here are forgetting.


Some jumps in medical sceince will be needed but......I think a bit of tweaking and putting in some new neural connections to said eyes along with the addition of the correct pigments to the affected cones should take care of the problem.

I believe you were trying to make a point however, please continue on.


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## aquis45 (Mar 9, 2011)

In Iraq they are all (mostly) gay. They just don't understand the fact that running a train on their buddy makes them a homosexual. They are under some weird delusion that women are for procreation and men are for fun. Then again they still practice female circumcision in those parts.


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## Ennoea (Mar 9, 2011)

> There is no wrong or right.



No there are clear examples of right and wrong. Killing people because of their sexuality is wrong. 



> As long as individual countries continue to keep their own laws contained and enforced, then we shouldn't have a problem.



So you think its okay for regimes to continue to kill off minorities but we shouldn't judge them because they have different values even if its mass genocide?


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## legoffjacques (Mar 10, 2011)

Again, you're confusing personal belief with what a legally constituted state should do: protecting people rights. You can say that civil rights are only a social construct, but I' m sorry to break it for you, our system is actrually the best system we could come up with. I don't know if you believe in contractualism or in natural law, but human rights are inherent to a person, regardless of the provenience of that person. If some nations are not respecting human rights, which
are universal, we have a duty to step in. I'm not saiyng that we should go at war with every fucked up country, but we should at least use all of our influence (international sanctions, the ONU pressure etc) to make them recognize at least the most basic rights.


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## Uchihα Itαchi (Mar 10, 2011)

Escargon said:


> *Its not only muslims who fear gay people. Most of the countries around Europe thinks that homosexuality is a disease.
> 
> And here in Sweden last year i saw alot people trying to sabotage and scream stuffs to gay people. (Gay parade or pride or what you call it!)
> 
> ...



Whoa! I've never seen Swedish people having something against gay people. Only little kids at school, but I never count that since they mature as they grow older. Even a part of Roseng?rd doesn't have anything against gay people.
I agree with you, though, homophobia is stupid in my eyes, and I don't understand how people fear such thing. What's more important is people's personality.


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## aquis45 (Mar 10, 2011)

I'm also on pretty good authority that Afghanistan is equally homosexual. Which means you have Arabs on one side gaying it up, Pashtuns on the other side doing the same and Persians in the middle killing homosexuals.


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## Momentum (Mar 11, 2011)

*BECUZ ITS TEH LAW!*


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