# Uchiha Itachi vs Namikaze Minato



## HandfullofNaruto (Sep 26, 2016)

*VS**Location*: Naruto vs Pein Rikudo
*Starting Distance*: 55 Meters
*Knowledge*: Full
*Mindset*: IC + To Kill
*Restrictions/Stipulations*: None

*Scenario 2*: These two team up to _kill_ SM Kabuto (ET restrict)

Reactions: Like 2


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## Troyse22 (Sep 26, 2016)

Itachi should take this with relatively low difficulty.

Totsuka pierce, Susanoo or Tsukuyomi troll Minato. Minato is not trained like Gai to not look into their opponents, implying that he can fight as good as he normally does without looking into his eyes is silly, baseless and screams Minato fanboy.

Itachi pierced Oro with Totsuka before he could even react. So it's certainly not slow.

Minato gets popped like a zit by Susanoo arm, in the time it would take to warp to Itachi with full knowledge and tag him, Itachi would grab him, unless you're implying that Itachis reflexes are crap?

Even if he tags him and warps Susanoo away, Itachi instantly remanifests and slaps Minato for messing with him.

Bad matchup neg-low diff for Itachi.

As for scen 2, the Duo will probably lose, Sasuke is not there to free Itachi from Tayuya's genjutsu, and Minato cannot do the same because, obvious reasons...

Low diff for Kabuto.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1 | Disagree 2 | Dislike 5


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 26, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Are you real???
> 
> Team kage lolstomp
> 
> ...



See bold for why Minato wins 

Minato mid diff, he counters amaterasu with his sheer speed, wont fall for tsukuyomi as it requires eye contact that is easily avoided thanks to minatos fighting style, yasaka or any mid/long range itachi techs are trolled by S/T barrier, itachi cannot tag minato with totsuka cuz minato is wayyyy too fast. Minato however lacks the DC to bust susanoo, but can likely port it away from itachi and thus negate it, considering gaaras sand removed madara from his susanoo. Minato can also place a FTG seal on itachi prior to him using susanoo, then susanoo is made obsolete as minato can just port inside and murder itachi.

Long story short, minato outlasts for a mid diff.

EDIT: If minato cant port susanoo away he just outlasts itachis susanoo as he can dodge it for days, once itachi gets tired a drops susanoo hes done as minato could just FTG lvl 2 blitz him as its proven on panel sharingan precog dont mean jack to lvl 2.

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## HandfullofNaruto (Sep 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Totsuka pierce, Susanoo or Tsukuyomi troll Minato. Minato is not trained like Gai to not look into their opponents, implying that he can fight as good as he normally does without looking into his eyes is silly, baseless and screams Minato fanboy.


Minato is well known for blindsiding his opponents. Eye contact isn't required and he's not going to make eye contact when he has full knowledge on Sharingan Genjutsu/Tsukuyomi which both require direct eye contact. 





> Itachi pierced Oro with Totsuka before he could even react. So it's certainly not slow.


It doesn't have to be slow for him to dodge it. He casually reacted to A4 which is a way better speed feat than Nerfed Oro not reacting to Totsuka. If Itachi tries to use Totsuka Minato can simply Hiraishin away. He's definitely not lacking in feats.





> Minato gets popped like a zit by Susanoo arm


Susanoo arm isn't quick enough to grab Yondaime Hokage. He can warp away before being grabbed and to add on to that he could also take advantage of the direct contact and warp himself plus Itachi away from the Susanoo.





> In the time it would take to warp to Itachi.


What? Hiraishin is not slower than Susanoo arm grab. 





> with full knowledge and tag him, Itachi would grab him, unless you're implying that Itachis reflexes are crap?


Itachis reflexes are amazing but even if he grabbed him Minato can get away via Hiraishin.





> Even if he tags him and warps Susanoo away, Itachi instantly remanifests and slaps Minato for messing with him.


Remanifesting Susanoo isn't an instant thing and it won't happen as quickly has Hiraishin can warp. Madara who casually outclasses Itachi in literally every aspect could reform Susanoo and had to resort to using Rinnegan when he was pulled from his Susanoo. We're also shown that his Susanoo slowly deteriorated after he left it. Itachi is lacking the feats. We can't assume he's able to "maintain" multiple Susanoo and use it as quickly as Hiraishin can warp. 

Sorry that's so scattered I'm just too tired for this.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Parallaxis (Sep 26, 2016)

hmmm....
Knowledge is full here meaning Minato knows about genjutsu and tsukuyomi...

Minato trolls amaterasu with FTG.
Itachi might be smart enough to only use susanoo as a defense when minato attacks. I say he might be able to react to an FTG blitz seeing as how he activated susanoo against kirin which is supposed to reach the ground in 1/1000th of a second.

Minato may outlast Itachi here

but if he makes a mistake and looks into his eyes it's gg
50-50 for me, but i'd place my money on minato


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 26, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> hmmm....
> Knowledge is full here meaning Minato knows about genjutsu and tsukuyomi...
> 
> Minato trolls amaterasu with FTG.
> ...



A fair assesment, however if you put ur money on minato wouldnt your odds be more like 51-49 as opposed to 50-50? lol

Reactions: Agree 3


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 26, 2016)

Itachi would win with mid-difficulty in all honesty.

Itachi's one of the only individuals who can compete with Minato, solely because of his reflexes and his ability to react to blind-side attacks courtesy to his experience as an Anbu Captain and his battle adaptability. His battle adaptability enabled him to combat Nagato, a superior fighter with a superior jutsu in comparison to Minato and his FTG in spite of possessing minimal knowledge as he deciphered Nagato's Rinnegan in merely a single confrontation and quickly formulated a strategy that dispatched Nagato's strongest defense in the form of mere shuriken. In all honesty, to suggest that Itachi gets bamflashed within a single confrontation with Minato is rather silly, especially when the author places emphasis on Itachi's foresight and ability to adapt to dangerous situations instantaneously which enabled him to combat superior fighters (Nagato and DSM Kabuto).

Itachi has the necessary qualities to combat Hiraishin, an Absolute Defense that's activated far quicker than Minato's Hiraishin and maneuvers faster than Itachi himself, and mere shuriken-ninjutsu that could potentially hinder Minato's mobility significantly. Itachi would win this mid-difficulty, a large reason for that is because essential aspects of Itachi's fighting style involves rapid-fire ninjutsu coupled with Genjutsu which is countered through Hiraishin.

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## Ashi (Sep 26, 2016)

The consensus is Minato mid-high diffs

None of Itachi's MS techniques can tag Minato, but Minato can blindside Itachi rather easily

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## Android (Sep 26, 2016)

This post is very painful to read , so if you are a hardcore Itachi fan , or if you love Itachi so much , don't open it 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Minato wins with low-mid difficulty .
Basically you have 2 Shinobi , one can tag the other with absolute ease , while the other needs a MIRACLE just to come close to touching him .
Geez , i wonder who get raped 
- FTG and FTG variants means everything in Itachis arsenal is dodged , defended from , avoided shit diff .
- Genjutsu isn't happening against someone with Minato's speed and experience .
- Amaterasu is lol neggated with FTG or flat out ignored since it's never landing on Minato and even if it did , FTG teleportation get rid of it .
- Totsuka isn't landing on Minato , not in a million years .
Now Minato can easily rape this clows with ease .
- In CQC Itachi gets raped and tagged shit diff and get mercked , Minato can just tag him and then slam a Rasengan on his back and kill him .
- Minato can also speed blitz his ass and kill him with a Hiraishingiri .
- Itachi is defeated lol low difficulty , he's nothing compared to Minato , it's a joke to even compare the 2 Shinobi .
Someone like Itachi should not be put in a thread with Minato , he's tiers below him 
Oh , Minato can also outlast Itachi here

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## drew8324 (Sep 26, 2016)

People act as if REPETITIVE Kage level Rasengans won't hurt a Susanoo?? And What about Minato homosexual aura that itchai would also fall for

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 26, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> his ability to react to blind-side attacks courtesy to his experience as an Anbu Captain and his battle adaptability.



So you are using itachis anbu hype as a means for him to be capable of reacting to hiraishin blind side that even AAAA couldnt outspeed?



UchihaX28 said:


> Nagato, a superior fighter with a superior jutsu in comparison to Hiraishin and his FTG



Nagato has nothing to compare with FTG, he has no techs that are at all similar to Hiraishin and no techs that can begin to compare in speed, saying he has superior jutsu to hiraishin holds no water whatsoever as hiraishin is a completely different style of technique than any rinnegan tech. Nagato has greater DC sure, but thats not what FTG is used for so no comparison can be made really.



UchihaX28 said:


> deciphered Nagato's Rinnegan in merely a single confrontation


Itachi was an akatsuki member for near a decade, in addition to that, Itachi and Nagato conversed quite casually as edos, he also knew nagatos name, implying they had met before, claiming they had met for the first time as edos makes no sense. In addition to this, minato deciphered kamui in seconds, and had a counter ready to go, he also didnt need the assistance of naruto and B to make it happen, so whats your point here?



UchihaX28 said:


> dispatched Nagato's strongest defense in the form of mere shuriken


Itachi attacked nagatos stationary summons with shuriken from their blind spots, blind spot attacks are kinda minatos specialty. This also holds no weight in a confrontation between minato and itachi considering minato is anything but stationary.



UchihaX28 said:


> In all honesty, to suggest that Itachi gets bamflashed with a single confrontation with Minato is rather silly,


Minato has outpaced far,* far faster opponents* than Itachi in the past and has dealt with the sharingan before, its not at all outside the realm of possibility that itachi would get blitzed by hiraishin when minato has done so to faster individuals.



UchihaX28 said:


> the author places emphasis on Itachi's foresight


Minato has great foresight as well, he planned ahead by 16 years, *seconds prior to his own death* and planted his own chakra within naruto to assist him with the nine tails if it ever threatened to break out, an action that saved his son's life and the lives of everyone naruto convinced nagato to revive as a result of minato saving naruto. He did the same with kushinas chakra in an effort to help him train to control the nine tails. So itachis "foresight" is moot considering minato has the same if not way better. And if you are referencing foresight in a more literal sense, ie the sharingan, i have already addressed minato has outpaced and outmaneuvered sharingan precog before, so he can do so against itachi.



UchihaX28 said:


> Itachi has the necessary qualities to combat Hiraishin


He really doesnt, AAAA who is far faster than itachi couldnt, Obito who could make himself intangible and port minato to boxland in an instant and possessed sharingan precog the same as itachi couldnt, so how do you think itachi can considering he lacks these things?



UchihaX28 said:


> Absolute Defense that's activated far quicker than Minato's Hiraishin and maneuvers faster than Itachi himself


Susanoo is not faster than hiraishin, thats baseless. Hiraishin is only as slow as minatos reflexes considering its instant teleportation, and minatos reflexes are insane and considerably above itachis, unless you think itachi could react to AAAA's top speed, or kamui, or sekizo.



UchihaX28 said:


> shuriken-ninjutsu that could potentially hinder Minato's mobility significantly.


So AAAA and obito couldnt tag minato with their fastest techs, but itachi is gonna do the impossible and outspeed minato with shuriken? Sure, why not?



UchihaX28 said:


> Itachi's fighting style involves rapid-fire ninjutsu coupled with Genjutsu *which is countered through Hiraishin*.


Im confused here, you are aware you just summed up exactly why *itachi loses* with this sentence right? Which side are you on exactly? "Due to the fact itachis genjutsu is countered by hiraishin, as are all of itachis mid range techs, itachi wins" lolwut

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## Rai (Sep 26, 2016)

Minato can't scratch ribcage susano'o.

Summons will be one-shotted by Genjutsu or Amaterasu

Sooner or later he will be hit by Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi or Susano'o.

Itachi low difficulty.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Sapherosth (Sep 26, 2016)

This is Minato AFTER assuming he was facing Madara Uchiha.....Took ZERO precaution against sharingan genjutsu. It's either he's severely underestimating it, or he just didn't care. Fatal against Itachi. 







Eye contact against Itachi GG.





If Itachi gets tagged he can just take Minato with him via Kunai or Susano grab. Or, if he chooses it, Susano defend.







Or.....Itachi lets Minato tag an explosive clone and then explode at his face.

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## Troyse22 (Sep 26, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> So you are using itachis anbu hype as a means for him to be capable of reacting to hiraishin blind side that even AAAA couldnt outspeed?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think Itachi and Minato are both shit on foresight. Itachi set his brother up to become an insane serial killer, Minato set his son up to be tortured throughout his childhood. It's ridiculous to imply either have proven to have good foresight.

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## Blu-ray (Sep 26, 2016)

What a fresh and exciting thread that has never been done before.

Minato either kills Itachi or forces Itachi to kill himself through over-exertion from Susano'o to defend himself, which itself can get ported away. The only avenue for Itachi to win is genjutsu, but that's not likely in a full knowledge scenario.

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## UchihaX28 (Sep 26, 2016)

@WorldsStrongest

No offense, but I chose to simply give my input rather than engage in a debate simply because of how majority of members here don't respect my opinion on Itachi and simply engaging in a prolonged discussion with no side budging isn't something that caters to my interests.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I think Itachi and Minato are both shit on foresight. Itachi set his brother up to become an insane serial killer, Minato set his son up to be tortured throughout his childhood. It's ridiculous to imply either have proven to have good foresight.



Naruto may have been bullied as a child, but he persevered and through that perseverance saved the lives of thousands of people an assload of times and became admired by those who shunned him, due in large part to the fact minato gave him the kyuubi and minato did s o because he believed in his son and knew he would one day master the kyuubis power. 

SPOILERS 







Naruto mastered the kyuubis power. Naruto also never once blamed minato for his circumstances once he learned the reasoning behind them. It was the best decision in an impossible situation, and the decision saved the shinobi world so.........

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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 26, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> @WorldsStrongest
> 
> No offense, but I chose to simply give my input rather than engage in a debate simply because of how majority of members here don't respect my opinion on Itachi and simply engaging in a prolonged discussion with no side budging isn't something that caters to my interests.



Thats fair, im not gonna bait you into talking about something you would rather avoid, or at least not intentionally, if my replies to other members convince you to respond, just know thats not really my intention.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Sapherosth (Sep 26, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Naruto may have been bullied as a child, but he persevered and through that perseverance saved the lives of thousands of people an assload of times and became admired by those who shunned him, due in large part to the fact minato gave him the kyuubi and minato did s o because he believed in his son and knew he would one day master the kyuubis power.
> 
> SPOILERS
> 
> ...




Itachi saved Sasuke's life and made him strong....so....that evens it out.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 26, 2016)

VolatileSoul said:


> What a fresh and exciting thread that has never been done before.
> 
> Minato either kills Itachi or forces Itachi to kill himself through over-exertion from Susano'o to defend himself, which itself can get ported away. The only avenue for Itachi to win is genjutsu, but that's not likely in a full knowledge scenario.



Minato is a sensor too so he'd know when Itachi is prepping Genjutsu and if he's under the influence of one either way.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 26, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Naruto may have been bullied as a child, but he persevered and through that perseverance saved the lives of thousands of people an assload of times and became admired by those who shunned him, due in large part to the fact minato gave him the kyuubi and minato did s o because he believed in his son and knew he would one day master the kyuubis power.
> 
> SPOILERS
> 
> ...



Translation: Minato-"Fuck you and your feeling Naruto"
Naruto-"Lolk"

At best it saved the village from Pein level destruction, Hiruzen, Minato and the other chunin/jonin/genin would have saved the village. Are you suggesting that nobody could have stopped Kurama? Bull.shit.



UchihaX28 said:


> @WorldsStrongest
> 
> No offense, but I chose to simply give my input rather than engage in a debate simply because of how majority of members here don't respect my opinion on Itachi and simply engaging in a prolonged discussion with no side budging isn't something that caters to my interests.



Agreed


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 26, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Itachi saved Sasuke's life and made him strong....so....that evens it out.



Id argue itachi was short sighted due to the fact he never told sasuke the truth about the uchiha clan, and instead allowed him to steep in hatred his entire life. Itachi himself admitted if he was honest with sasuke then together they could have changed the clans minds so...to each their own i guess


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 26, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Translation: Minato-"Fuck you and your feeling Naruto"
> Naruto-"Lolk"



Id Argue it was more like

Minato-"Ur gonna need this giant nuke in ur belly to save the world some day son, sorry if its uncomfortable but i believe u can deal cuz ur my son"

Naruto-"k thanx dad, u can go now, ive totes got this, say hi to mom for me"



Troyse22 said:


> At best it saved the village from Pein level destruction, Hiruzen, Minato and the other chunin/jonin/genin would have saved the village. Are you suggesting that nobody could have stopped Kurama? Bull.shit.


Oh absolutely, others could have stopped kurama, provided they had an insanely powerful sealing technique on par with shiki fujin...oh wait...thats literally 1 person and its the third hokage who also has shiki fujin, my bad.

Sealing kurama in naruto saved the village from pain, saved the entire shinobi alliance from the white zetsu impersonators, saved the shinobi alliance from edo shinobi like AAA, saved the gokage from edo madara, saved the entire shinobi alliance from the juubi bomb tree, saved the entire shinobi world from kaguya, and saved the shinobi world from sasukes revolution as naruto would have been extremely hard pressed to do these things without kurama. Agreed?

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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 26, 2016)

The only way Itachi can beat Minato is if they start out at close-range facing each other with Itachi having his Sharingan active so he can instantly use Sharingan: Genjutsu to end the match. Other than that, he cannot beat someone of Minato's caliber. At this distance combined with full knowledge, Minato can casually blitz Itachi at the beginning of the match and force him to use Susanoo so that he will not immediately die.  Which won't matter, since Minato can teleport Itachi out of his Susanoo and proceed to end the match with a Rasengan to the head or Hiraishin kunai to the neck. Minato wins with low difficulty.

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## Sapherosth (Sep 26, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Id argue itachi was short sighted due to the fact he never told sasuke the truth about the uchiha clan, and instead allowed him to steep in hatred his entire life. Itachi himself admitted if he was honest with sasuke then together they could have changed the clans minds so...to each their own i guess




To be fair Itachi was *only 13* when all of that took place. Barely older than Part 1 Naruto/Sasuke.


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## Android (Sep 26, 2016)

Oh , i would also like to thank @HandfullofNaruto for his nice thread , such an amazing poster , we all should be like HandfullofNaruto .

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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 26, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> To be fair Itachi was *only 13* when all of that took place. Barely older than Part 1 Naruto/Sasuke.



I suppose, either way tho, it was short sighted. Hiruzen also claimed that at age 4 itachi had the insight of a kage, so at age 13 ud think hed be able to insight his way out of murdering everyone he ever loved but i guess not.

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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 26, 2016)

Not gonna lie, didnt even notice theres a scenario 2 in the OP lol, Itachi and Minato vs SM kabuto...


Well considering itachi and EMS sasuke(who is weaker than minato imho) defeated kabuto without killing intent, id say the duo with killing intent can safely take down kabuto. Honestly minato could blitz, id doubt very much that SM kabuto is anywhere near AAAA in speed and reactions so amaterasu should seal the deal,even if hes =AAAA, minato is still faster sooo...

Team low-mid diff.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Sep 26, 2016)

ℜai said:


> Sooner or later he will be hit by Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi or Susano'o.
> 
> Itachi low difficulty.


Amaterasu has been removed with FTG so no that isn't going to work. Tsukuyomi requires direct eye contact and a close range which is close to impossible since Minato has full knowledge. Minato puts one hand on Susanoo and teleports Itachi into a clones rasengan.

Everything in between: Elementals/Shuriken
Clones/Sharingan Genjutsu

Are useless and countered with:

FTG/Kunai
Clones/FTG + Knowledge.

Also using Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi & Susanoo in one battle can't be considered Low-Difficulty. That's ridiculous.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Naruto-"k thanx dad, u can go now, ive totes got this, say hi to mom for me"


lol, this.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 26, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I suppose, either way tho, it was short sighted. Hiruzen also claimed that at age 4 itachi had the insight of a kage, so at age 13 ud think hed be able to insight his way out of murdering everyone he ever loved but i guess not.




No, at age 7 Itachi had the "Wisdom" of a kage. He still lacked all other aspects. Heck, even the actual Hokage at the time couldn't find a solution. What did you expect from a 13 year old?

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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 26, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> No, at age 7 Itachi had the "Wisdom" of a kage. He still lacked all other aspects. Heck, even the actual Hokage at the time couldn't find a solution. What did you expect from a 13 year old?



Well with the wisdom of a kage at 7 ud think hed at least try all options open to him, he clearly considered sasuke an option, hes also twice that age now and has been promoted to chunin and is a member of the anbu, he has been deemed worthy by his superiors to lead subordinates on missions and bring them home alive, itachi is far from your average 13 yr old, or even ur average shinobi 13 yr old for that matter. All im trying to say.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 26, 2016)

Minato gets underestimated. A usual day in The Battledome.

Minato solos Itachi in Scenario 1. Speedblitz FTW. 

And he solos SM Kabuto in Scenario 2.

I have planty of proofs to back up my words, but i'll provide them tomorrow.

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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 26, 2016)

@HandfullofNaruto Is this an anon poll btw? Cause i cant seem to see who voted for what option...

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Sapherosth (Sep 26, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Minato gets underestimated. A usual day in The Battledome.
> 
> Minato solos Itachi in Scenario 1. Speedblitz FTW.
> 
> ...




Itachi gets underestimated, as per usual.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Android (Sep 26, 2016)

"I believe that only you [Naruto] can surpass the Fourth Hokage.
~ Kakashi, The Legendary Copy Ninja of the Leaf

"There was never a man that could surpass him [Fourth Hokage] "
~ The Legendary Raikage, fastest man in the world.

"That unrivalled strength [Minato], that carefree smile.."
~ Masashi Kishimoto, Creator of Naruto

Aw come on, everybody pales in comparison to the fourth lord. As a shinobi his capacity was unparalleled, a true one-of-a kind.
~Jiraiya, the Legendary Sannin

"You deserve the title of Fourth Hokage..Managing to wound me and wrest the fox from my control in one move"
~ Tobi, The Final Villain

" I am proud of the unity of Iwagakure , although , we are proud we sent 1000 shinobi from our men , i hear that it took only one man from the hidden leaf , the yellow flash , to stop the invasion "
Onoki , The third Tsuchikage .

Minato had the sort of talent you only find once in a decade. We haven't had another genius like him since.
Jiraiya to Tsunade. Two of the Greatest Ninja of All Time

Inb4 hurr Itachi was called Invincible .
The same Black Zetsu who called him dense lol

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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 26, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> "I believe that only you [Naruto] can surpass the Fourth Hokage.
> ~ Kakashi, The Legendary Copy Ninja of the Leaf
> 
> "There was never a man that could surpass him [Fourth Hokage] "
> ...


And even this is only a handful of the various statements that make it painfully clear that portrayal-wise Minato > Itachi in the Manga. However, that doesn't mean that Itachi can never beat him because he's much stronger. But in this scenario, at this distance, with full knowledge, it is a stomp in Minato's favor.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 26, 2016)

The only issue with that argument is that Itachi was clearly somebody who lurked in the shadows, so there wasn't any opportunity for Itachi to receive any recognition at all.

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## DaVizWiz (Sep 26, 2016)

Minato takes this with mid-difficulty.

Minato is too fast for any of Itachi's attacks to land, he was avoiding the 4th Raikage and Kamui warp without knowledge, and had the physical reflexes to react to truthseekers before Obito and Kakashi even began activating Kamui against Madara's truthseekers fired from 50m away, and he intercepted truthseekers, let them touch his back, and warped away before they did any damage whatsoever to his body, the truthseekers were speeding when he did this. 

With knowledge on Itachi's entire arsenal, his base stats, and his fighting style, at some point it comes down to whether or not Minato will choose to gamble with warping his Susano away, or whether he will simply choose to continue to avoid Itachi's attacks until he dies of his illness, considering spamming Susano results in death within 5 minutes.

He will not fall for any of Itachi's tricks with bunshin with full knowledge, if anything he'll engage a Susano-less Itachi with his own bunshin prior to putting himself in danger of a bunshin feint.

Amaterasu, Totsuka, Magatamas, Katon, Suiton all get warped back into Itachi's Susano or avoided entirely with FTG and knowledge.

Any form of Genjutsu has no chance of landing with Minato's fast-paced warping and kunai throws, and knowledge that eye contact is required for any Genjutsu powerful enough to stagger an elite chakra control Hokage.

If Amaterasu manages to land on him because he isn't keeping his eye on Itachi's eyes which is absurd considering he's faster than Ei- no problem. He warps away from them with FTG even if they've made contact with him or double FTG switches with his own bunshin, just as he was warped away from them by Tobirama when FRS Enton hit him in the chest.

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## Sapherosth (Sep 26, 2016)

I suppose Itachi is just a retarded character who couldn't possibly utilise full knowledge as well.

Or is this a full knowledge scenario for Minato only?

I guess you're all forgetting that Itachi has full knowledge on all of Minato's techniques as well, and he is one of the best in the manga at finding weaknesses to techniques and individuals. Hype wise he shits on Minato in that regard.

So forgive me for being a bit skeptical on how you all conveniently ignore this fact. 

There is no "blitzing" or "outlasting" here.

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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 26, 2016)

How exactly does Itachi has more Hype than Minato!?

Any way,these are two of the most fan wanked  characters ever although I myself really like both as a Characters and all by Powers and Story/Past...and still I think Minato wins.
He is superior to Itachi in nearly every aspect bar Shuriken Jutsu,Genjutsu and Elemntal Attacks. But Minato FTG,Rasengan,Temporary SM,Unrivalled Shunshin(By Human Standards),and base Physical Stats such as Strength,Speed,Reactions,Reflexes,Stamina,Chakra Pool and probably even better in Intelligence too. With Fuinjutsu too.

Yeah Minato Mid Diffs this.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 26, 2016)

@Second Hokage Tobirama

Hype are generally statements that exaggerate a shinobi's accomplishments and a few of these examples can be encountered in cctr9's post.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 26, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> @Second Hokage Tobirama
> 
> Hype are generally statements that exaggerate a shinobi's accomplishments and a few of these examples can be encountered in cctr9's post.


While I agree to a Degree with you...I still said there are a number of facts and feats which still puts Minato above Itachi and gives him the win!


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 26, 2016)

Itachi cannot physically react to Hiraishin so Susano'o either comes right off the bat or Tsukuyomi does. These two techniques are what will keep Itachi in the game and grant him a victory. Aside from that Minato likely had the stamina to outlast Itachi, so Itachi has a greater chance for losing once it is gone.

He'll have to nail Tsukuyomi before that time runs out, if not then once Susano'o fades it'll be kunai to throat.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 26, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> While I agree to a Degree with you...I still said there are a number of facts and feats which still puts Minato above Itachi and gives him the win!



Feats and Statements tie into portrayal and majority of statements regarding Minato are clearly exaggerations because Minato's "unrivaled strength" has been surpassed by countless ninja, including Nagato and Hanzo which invalidates a large portion of Minato's portrayal. With that being said, when Itachi operated on such a higher standard against ninja who are explicitly superior to Minato, there's honestly no way you can make such a bold claim that Itachi was clearly depicted as Minato's inferior. Itachi didn't have an opportunity to receive the praise that Minato did because majority of his accomplishments were done at such a young age, a far-cry from his prime state and Itachi's departure from Konoha deprived himself from any opportunity he had left to receive such high level acknowledgement.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 26, 2016)

Itachi had more than enough Hype for his deeds,such as Killing the whole Uchiha Clan,becoming the youngest ANBU Captain and etc. And even numerous Shinobi were afraid or worried about facing him and were surprised after his "defeat" and etc. Which is more than enough Hype and all,but it is just not enough even with feats to say he beats Minato. While I agree that the whole "Minato is the Strongest there is...and no one cam beat him or surpass him" was retcconed and proven false many times it still doesn't suggest that Itachi can win especially with Full Knowledge.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 26, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I suppose Itachi is just a retarded character who couldn't possibly utilise full knowledge as well.
> 
> Or is this a full knowledge scenario for Minato only?
> 
> ...


What have you provided that suggests he wouldn't be outlasted?

Having knowledge on Minato's arsenal does not help him circumvent the speed gap, and most of Minato's arsenal is based on his speed.

His only option would be to use tricks with bunshin or crows to land his attacks just as he attempted to do on Kabuto.

The issue being Minato also has full knowledge on Itachi's arsenal and battle tactics, Kabuto didn't, these tricks won't work on a shinobi who has far more battle experience and war accolades than Itachi and Kabuto combined.


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## KeyofMiracles (Sep 27, 2016)

I will forever stay laughing at the arguments that say Itachi reacts to Hiraishin because B did since the people who tend to make them always ignore two facts:

1. Itachi's reactions are only above or on par with Killer B's because of Sharingan. If Minato attacks from the back or anywhere out of Itachi's line of sight then that Sharingan buff is negated and it's, for all intents and purposes, Base Itachi w/o Sharingan's help having to react against Minato's blitz. :lol Not happening.

2. B didn't react to Hiraishin. Minato teleported to him and didn't even attack. 

As for the match up, Minato literally dodges everything Itachi has with Hiraishin until he can't maintain a high enough level of Susanoo (So anything above Ribcage), then Food Cart Destroyer ends it.


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## A Optimistic (Sep 27, 2016)

well we saw how minato vs an uchiha went last time...


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## A Optimistic (Sep 27, 2016)

wtf is A4


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## Empathy (Sep 27, 2016)

Minato should outlast Itachi, as he's forced to maintain _Susanoo _to keep up with his speed and teleportation. We know Minato's too fast to be hit by _Amaterasu _since A avoided it and we've seen Minato poof out of it before it could stick to him. That means he's probably too fast to be sealed by the _Totsuka _as well. So this match essentially comes down to Minato versus genjutsu. I don't think Minato has the aptitude to break out of genjutsu of Itachi's caliber, however I think there's a reason Minato could charge face-first into Obito's face and not be easily defeated by genjutsu. I think it's the same reason why it didn't come into play when Sasuke fought A in close-quarters, who wasn't trying to avoid eye-contact; and why A had to be distracted by outside circumstances and then held down by _Susanoo _for Edo Madara to put him under genjutsu. If somebody is too fast for _Amaterasu _to stick by looking at them, then they're too fast for genjutsu to be initiated through eye-contact.

Sasuke was only able to cast genjutsu on the slower Killer Bee when he was moving predictably linear straight towards him. The more skilled Itachi put Bee under sooner, but neither Itachi or Sasuke could cast it during Bee's swords dance; most likely because if they tried to take their eyes off of Bee's unorthodox movements to look at his eyes and divert their attention to casting genjutsu for a split second, then they'd sustain injury. The same should be the case with Minato, provided he doesn't sit still for too long. Itachi will be forced to maintain a low level of _Susanoo _to defend against Minato attacking from all sides from the kunai spread around, and eventually close missed bunshin/genjutsu feints and _Amaterasu _attempts will start to wear on Itachi and he'll either momentarily drop his _Susanoo _armor and be tagged and killed, or his stamina will run out. I'd give it to Minato with high or extreme difficulty (as I don't think that scenario will play out every time and if he lets up on his speed even a little, he'll be killed by a feint of some sort), which I think is reflective of their Naruto/Sasuke parallels at that late juncture, with the one that represents the Naruto (Ashura) side barely edging out.

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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 27, 2016)

Ava said:


> wtf is A4



u mean AAAA i assume lol its fourth raikage A, people just say AAAA for redundancy i guess


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## StarWanderer (Sep 27, 2016)

Oh by the way, i think i'll provide someone interesting.

Naruto after using KCM admitted that Sage Mode has a wider danger-sensing range, and it's *faster*, so it seems that SM Naruto > KCM Naruto in terms of CQC speed.

VIZ media, people.



Add that to the post i've posted above and imagine how fast Minato is. No shinobi in Narutoverse (usual shinobi) possess the Shunshin speed as fast as Minato's.

Except for BM/BSM Naruto, of course.

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## Android (Sep 27, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Itachi would win with mid-difficulty in all honesty.
> 
> Itachi's one of the only individuals who can compete with Minato, solely because of his reflexes and his ability to react to blind-side attacks courtesy to his experience as an Anbu Captain and his battle adaptability. His battle adaptability enabled him to combat Nagato, a superior fighter with a superior jutsu in comparison to Minato and his FTG in spite of possessing minimal knowledge as he deciphered Nagato's Rinnegan in merely a single confrontation and quickly formulated a strategy that dispatched Nagato's strongest defense in the form of mere shuriken. In all honesty, to suggest that Itachi gets bamflashed within a single confrontation with Minato is rather silly, especially when the author places emphasis on Itachi's foresight and ability to adapt to dangerous situations instantaneously which enabled him to combat superior fighters (Nagato and DSM Kabuto).
> 
> Itachi has the necessary qualities to combat Hiraishin, an Absolute Defense that's activated far quicker than Minato's Hiraishin and maneuvers faster than Itachi himself, and mere shuriken-ninjutsu that could potentially hinder Minato's mobility significantly. Itachi would win this mid-difficulty, a large reason for that is because essential aspects of Itachi's fighting style involves rapid-fire ninjutsu coupled with Genjutsu which is countered through Hiraishin.


Honestly , reading your post , you've provided ZERO evidence for your stance , or how would Itachi actually win , or how would he deal with Minato's arsenal 
Basically your argument consists of :
* Hurr Itachi is experienced .
* Hurr Itachi can react to Minato  . w/o actually posting a single feat to back up this claim .
Not really sure why bringing his fight against Nagato when Nagato would _ass-rape_ Itachi w/o back up .
Not sure why bringing his fight against Kabuto when he had another back up with him in the form of EMS Sasuke .
Or did you forget that Kabuto literally butchered him in that fight more than 3 times ???

Here's your lord reacting to Kabuto , great reactions indeed

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## StarWanderer (Sep 27, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Honestly , reading your post , you've provided ZERO evidence for your stance , or how would Itachi actually win , or how would he deal with Minato's arsenal
> Basically your argument consists of :
> - Hurr Itachi is experienced .
> - Hurr Itachi can deal with Minato  . w/o actually posting a single feat to back up this claim .
> ...



Itachi was preparing Izanami, so it might be that he couldnt do anything.

Anyway, Minato stomps.


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## Android (Sep 27, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Itachi was preparing Izanami, so it might be that he couldnt do anything.


The blitz wasn't even from a blind spot 
Yet people are saying Itachi can react to people like A and Minato !!!!

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## StarWanderer (Sep 27, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> The blitz wasn't even from a blind spot
> Yet people are saying Itachi can react to people like A and Minato !!!!



He wasnt looking on the ground at that moment. 

Kirin's speed is overrated.

I remember bringing up the Databook where it could be said that Raikage hits with the speed of lightning.

Even if Itachi will be able to create v1/v2 Susanoo, he wont be able to use Yata Mirror in time, so the Susanoo will get Hiraishinned away, and after that Minato will blitz him. 

Minato stomps.


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## Android (Sep 27, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> He wasnt looking on the ground at that moment.


Doesn't matter as Kabuto was still in his field of vision

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## StarWanderer (Sep 27, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Doesn't matter as Kabuto was still in his field of vision



Sharingan's precognition works even with peripheral vision? You do realise that Kabuto was in his peripheral field of vision, right? You do realise that Itachi made a seal for Izanami and probably couldnt do anything because of Izanami preparation, right? 



Sapherosth said:


> All of what you said is pretty much irrelevant because we KNOW for a fact that the reason Minato is faster is because of FTG.



And because of Shunshin.

Ei shunshins with Naruto, Naruto praises his speed and Raikage admits that Minato was faster. That's after they shunshinned with each other.

So yeah, Raikage admits Minato was faster overall. Shunshin included.

Also, Minato has better Shunshin feats, such as saving Kushina and traveling half of Konoha in a moment before Kurama can destroy the village with his Bijuudama.

Bettter feats and Raikage's words. 



Sapherosth said:


> Young A pretty much nearly took Minato's head off....Do you honestly believe that Minato could've avoided it any other way apart from FTG?



No he didnt. He wasnt even remotely close to taking his head off. Minato just used FTW for more suitable counter-attack. It's more useful for him to use FTG against Ei than Shunshin.

When Ei's fist was few millimeters from Minato's face, he threw kunai in the air, teleported to a near tree, moved a bit, teleported to thrown kunai which was frozen - so fast Minato was - just like Ei, by the way, took that kunai with his hand and was about to hit him.

His sensory abilities were probably not as good as later, or he simply havent used them, or... WHatever, Kishi.

The fact is, he didnt sense Hachibi's chakra and Killer Bee successfully saved Ei from Minato's punch.

But that could be just a coincidence. Minato was preparing his backstab, because he wanted to cut through that chakra shroud. But Hachibi's tentacle came there just in time when Minato was swinging, saving Ei. Or at least preventing Minato from backstabbing him.

Minato's SHunshin speed feats are better and Ei himself admits his inferiority. So yeah, Minato could avoid Ei's top speed without Hiraishin.



Sapherosth said:


> Funny how we only see FTG usage against A V2.



Not only that.

The funny thing is the fact that you pretty much ignored most of my arguements.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 27, 2016)

@StarWanderer

Databook states that Minato only obtained his moniker through the inclusion of Hiraishin. His Shunshin never surpassed Raikage's because if it did, he would've received his moniker without Hiraishin. It's clear that Kishimoto intended on Minato being a slower contender physically, but faster with Hiraishin when he compared Base Raikage's reaction speed to Minato's.

If we analyzed the context of the fight, Raikage references how Minato's surpassed him in speed because he evaded his "Fastest Punch" and when KCM Naruto accomplishes that very same feat, he's revered as the "Yellow Flash" among the likes of Tsunade and Killer Bee. Context suggests that Raikage was referring to that instance the entire time.

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## Eliyua23 (Sep 27, 2016)

If Itachi could defeat Minato then why didn't he ever go after the guy Minato beat , and don't give me that stuff about being 14 , because the only technique he saw from Obito was Kamui that technique alone made him believe Obito=Madara , all he could hope to do was prepare a counter measure through preparation thru Sasuke , the guy could even hope to land a hit on him in life so no he can't beat Obito , he can't beat Minato because he has nothing for their speed and doesn't have the sheer raw power of a Madara, Hashirama to overwhelm him


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## Bonly (Sep 27, 2016)

I'd say it could go either way. Either Itachi can catch Minato in a genjutsu and then land a fatal/very damaging blow afterwords(assuming the Genjutsu itself isn't the fatal blow) or Minato manages to tag Itachi and eventually finish him off thanks to Hiraishin because otherwise they can pretty much defend from what the other can dish out in long range game and CQC game

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## StarWanderer (Sep 27, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Databook states that Minato only obtained his moniker through the inclusion of Hiraishin. His Shunshin never surpassed Raikage's because if it did, he would've received his moniker without Hiraishin. It's clear that Kishimoto intended on Minato being a slower contender physically, but faster with Hiraishin when he compared Base Raikage's reaction speed to Minato's.



Raikage admits Minato was faster than him after Shunshinning with Naruto, who praised his speed. There was no FTG. Only usual Shunshin, but very fast Shunshin. It is obvious that Raikage admitted his inferiority to Minato overall.

Also, Minato has better Shunshin speed feats than Raikage. Shunshinned half Konoha's distance and prevented Kurama from blowing up the whole village, saved Kushina from Kurama's hit and Shunshinned ~100 meters distance do escape Kurama's hit, who's hits were fast even for War Arc SM Naruto.

Those feats, especially the last one, are better than anything Raikage has shown in the manga.

Plus we have Raikage's own words after simply shunshinning with KCM Naruto.

Plus, we know that Minato's Shunshin > Tobirama's Shunshin.

So yeah, it is obvious that Minato's Shunshin is faster than Raikage's.



UchihaX28 said:


> If we analyzed the context of the fight, Raikage references how Minato's surpassed him in speed because he evaded his "Fastest Punch" and when KCM Naruto accomplishes that very same feat, he's revered as the "Yellow Flash" among the likes of Tsunade and Killer Bee. Context suggests that Raikage was referring to that instance the entire time.



The VIZ translation says Naruto is the second person to *outrun* his top speed punch. *Outrun*. 

Plus, again, Ei admits his inferiority in speed *after Shunshinning with Naruto in the air and on the ground*. 

Can you provide a Databook please?

Reactions: Informative 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 27, 2016)

@Ava ty for rep


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 27, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Raikage admits Minato was faster than him after Shunshinning with Naruto, who praised his speed. There was no FTG. Only usual Shunshin, but very fast Shunshin. It is obvious that Raikage admitted his inferiority to Minato overall.
> 
> Also, Minato has better Shunshin speed feats than Raikage. Shunshinned half Konoha's distance and prevented Kurama from blowing up the whole village, saved Kushina from Kurama's hit and Shunshinned ~100 meters distance do escape Kurama's hit, who's hits were fast even for War Arc SM Naruto.
> 
> ...



I'm aware of what you stated, but you're distorting the context of his statement because nowhere in Raikage and Naruto's entire skirmish is referencing what was occurring in modern times, he was clearly referring to his experience in dealing with Minato in general which occurred decades ago. That's made rather clear to the readers when KCM Naruto parallels Minato as he evades Raikage's Fastest Punch as well with Minato's clearly being a result of Hiraishin with the end result being Raikage referencing the moment that Minato surpassed him.

Minato can use Shunshin over longer periods of time while Raikage uses it in bursts which creates the illusion that Minato is faster. No one, not even Juubi Jin possess feats on that level yet we wouldn't argue that Juubi Jin are slower than Minato.

That ridiculous logic. You can't conclude that Minato is faster than Raikage just based on the fact that he's faster than Tobirama considering we don't even know how fast his Shunshin is to begin with.



> The VIZ translation says Naruto is the second person to *outrun* his top speed punch. *Outrun*.
> 
> Plus, again, Ei admits his inferiority in speed *after Shunshinning with Naruto in the air and on the ground*.
> 
> Can you provide a Databook please?



Minato's Hiraishin has been associated with Shunshin multiple times and Minato's ability to evade his Fastest Attack paralleled KCM Naruto's performance which was only possible through Hiraishin which is going off what was visually depicted in the manga. It'd be a baseless assumption to suggest that Minato managed to evade Raikage with Shunshin in all honesty.

I'm honestly not sure what you're implying with your next statement, but Raikage already acknowledged his inferiority in speed to Minato decades ago, so him even confirming that Minato was faster after he used Shunshin is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

As for Databook Entries, gladly:



> Inherited from Master to Disciple
> Secret Story of the Creation of Hiden Ninjutsu
> 
> *Tobirama?s developed jutsu were later inherited by a disciple, a user whose name was rising. Namikaze Minato improved the mastery of ?Hiraishin no jutsu?, and thus took the nickname ?The Yellow Flash?*. The excellent jutsu was refined according to the disciple, who evolved it together with the era. The future of ?Kagebunshin no jutsu (Shadow Clone Jutsu)? and ?Rasengan? is dependent upon Naruto!?





> The jutsu developed by Tobirama Senju are taken over by his students.* Minato Namikaze for instance improved the Hiraishin-no-Jutsu and was so virtuoso in it, that he was given the nickname "Yellow Flash"*. Many outstanding techniques were continuously refined and further developed in accordance with the era. Is the future of Kagebunshin and Rasengan now in Naruto's hands?!





> Raiton Chakra Mode
> 
> Raiton Chakra collects on the body, it's a body invigoration ninjutsu. From inside the body lightning gushes out, the speed of ones nerve transmissions rises. The body is wrapped in lightning, the jutsu durability is like that of armor. The Raikages' application of it causes their combat power to rise considerably.
> 
> It managed to chase Naruto's Bijuu Chakra Mode, *however it was inferior to the great speed of the Yellow-Flash *



And the cherry on top:



Raikage even acknowledged that Minato was the "Yellow Flash" only after recognizing the yellow paper and the sealing pattern that Minato uses through his Kunai and Raikage even associates that with the Shunshin no Jutsu. Minato's initial reaction by flicking a bunch of Kunai to allow himself to out-maneuver Raikage should suggest that he couldn't do so by normal means.

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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 27, 2016)

Imo

Naruto>Full speed AAAA>=minato>tobirama in sunshin only

Minato>naruto>=<Tobirama>full speed AAAA if you include hiraishin speed

Minato>Naruto>=tobirama>=<AAAA in reactions


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## Android (Sep 27, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Minato>naruto>=<*Tobirama*>full speed AAAA if you include hiraishin speed


KCM Naruto's Shunshin can not be faster than FTG . That's even impossible .


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 27, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> KCM Naruto's Shunshin can not be faster than FTG . That's even impossible .


I had them as interchangeable, not one superior to the other because i took narutos superior(imo) reactions into account there, his reactions compensate for tobis speed edge


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## Android (Sep 27, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I had them as interchangeable, not one superior to the other because i took narutos superior(imo) reactions into account there, his reactions compensate for tobis speed edge


So , you mean overall speed ?


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 27, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I had them as interchangeable, not one superior to the other because i took narutos superior(imo) reactions into account there, his reactions compensate for tobis speed edge


Well I don't think Naruto Reactions are better than Tobiramas! 

Nor do I think there is a huge difference in Tobirama and Minato Shunshin,although Minato has the edge for sure.


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 27, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> So , you mean overall speed ?


Sort of... i guess i view narutos speed as more efficient? If thats the right word for it. Due to his superior reactions, he can use his speed to greater effect than tobi can despite tobi having a speed advantage. Thats probably the best way i can word it.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 27, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I'm aware of what you stated, but you're distorting the context of his statement because nowhere in Raikage and Naruto's entire skirmish is referencing what was occurring in modern times, he was clearly referring to his experience in dealing with Minato in general which occurred decades ago. That's made rather clear to the readers when KCM Naruto parallels Minato as he evades Raikage's Fastest Punch as well with Minato's clearly being a result of Hiraishin with the end result being Raikage referencing the moment that Minato surpassed him.



Yet after simply Shunshinning with Naruto, Ei admits that Minato was faster than him.

You have a sparring match with someone in boxing, for example. After that sparring match your opponent says "oh man, you are good" and you admit that there is some boxer who's better than you in the gym.

The same thing happened here. They shunshinned together, Naruto praised him for his speed and Raikage admitted that Minato was faster.

So yeah, he admits that Minato is faster in general. Shunshin included.



UchihaX28 said:


> Minato can use Shunshin over longer periods of time while Raikage uses it in bursts which creates the illusion that Minato is faster. No one, not even Juubi Jin possess feats on that level yet we wouldn't argue that Juubi Jin are slower than Minato.



Minato shunshinned out of the way of Kurama's attack, taking Kushina in the process, running 100 meters distance with his Shunshin. I dont remember Ei having any feat comparable to this. Amaterasu-dodging is not on that level, realy. Because Kurama's attacks were fast even for War Arc SM Naruto, who effortlessly counter-attacked Third Raikage, who evaded 2 attacks from KCM Naruto.

Minato also shunshinned half Konoha's distance to prevent Kurama from successfuly using Bijuudama on the village.

He also came to battlefield earlier than both Tobirama and Hashirama, Tobirama lately admitting that Minato's shunshin is faster than his.



UchihaX28 said:


> That ridiculous logic. You can't conclude that Minato is faster than Raikage just based on the fact that he's faster than Tobirama considering we don't even know how fast his Shunshin is to begin with.



KCM Minato, despite his own great movement speed and KCM (the same as Naruto's, because it's other Kurama's half) had movement speed inferior to the speed of Tobirama's Shunshin. It is clear how fast Tobirama's Shunshin is.




UchihaX28 said:


> Minato's Hiraishin has been associated with Shunshin multiple times and Minato's ability to evade his Fastest Attack paralleled KCM Naruto's performance which was only possible through Hiraishin which is going off what was visually depicted in the manga. It'd be a baseless assumption to suggest that Minato managed to evade Raikage with Shunshin in all honesty.



Ei figured out how Minato's Hiraishin works. So those associations doesnt matter.

Possible only through Hiraishin? While Ei, with his top speed by the way, was going through a fewsantimeters distance, Minato threw kunai in the air, teleported to the near tree, moved a bit, teleported back to kunai before it went to high into the air and was about to backstab Ei. If he wanted to, he would have dodged his fastest punch without effort.

It's just more suitable to use Hiraishin because it's easier to counter-attack. This is perfectly seen in Minato's case.

Minato has better Shunshin speed feats and better Shunshin hype, even from Raikage himself, who admits his inferiority.

So yeah, Minato's shunshin >>> Ei's shunshin, there is no way around.



UchihaX28 said:


> I'm honestly not sure what you're implying with your next statement, but Raikage already acknowledged his inferiority in speed to Minato decades ago, so him even confirming that Minato was faster after he used Shunshin is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.



He never siad that to Naruto though. And in the context, it is obvious that he was talking about the shunshin speed and the speed overall, because he said that after his shunshin with Naruto and after Naruto praised his speed.

Plus, Minato's Shunshin feats are more impressive.



UchihaX28 said:


> Raikage even acknowledged that Minato was the "Yellow Flash" only after recognizing the yellow paper and the sealing pattern that Minato uses through his Kunai and Raikage even associates that with the Shunshin no Jutsu. Minato's initial reaction by flicking a bunch of Kunai to allow himself to out-maneuver Raikage should suggest that he couldn't do so by normal means.



Not Raikage but some random shinobi.

No it shouldnt. He never saw Ei in combat before so he used that for precaution means. The way he dodged Ei's top speed proves that if he wanted to, he would have simply dodged Ei's punch.

Edo Minato *in base* moved during Juubidara's Gudoudama flight, although Rinnegan Obito, for example, wouldnt be able to react to them, let alone moving during their flight.

Kakashi moved too. But i think that's just Kishi's PIS, that's all.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 27, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Yet after simply Shunshinning with Naruto, Ei admits that Minato was faster than him.
> 
> You have a sparring match with someone in boxing, for example. After that sparring match your opponent says "oh man, you are good" and you admit that there is some boxer who's better than you in the gym.
> 
> ...



Yeah, Raikage admitted that Minato was faster than him and Raikage was aware of this decades ago, so he's not referencing Shunshin at all, I'm not sure how you came up with that conclusion considering C established Raikage as being physically faster.



> Minato shunshinned out of the way of Kurama's attack, taking Kushina in the process, running 100 meters distance with his Shunshin. I dont remember Ei having any feat comparable to this. Amaterasu-dodging is not on that level, realy. Because Kurama's attacks were fast even for War Arc SM Naruto, who effortlessly counter-attacked Third Raikage, who evaded 2 attacks from KCM Naruto.



Amaterasu was depicted as the "strongest" physical attack that was inescapable even for a Sharingan User. Minato's speed is never depicted to be on such a level at all, same applies to Kurama's speed.

 Present me a direct statement or visual representation of Minato's Shunshin being far too quick for a Sharingan user to compete with because I can assure you, there

War Arc SM Naruto's performance involved evading one-linear attack which is far more predictable than evading a multitude of attacks. This isn't even taking into consideration that these are two entirely different scenarios, one is a representation of SM Naruto's movement speed while the other is a reflection of SM Naruto's reaction speed. They're simply incomparable, so I wouldn't use that as the basis of your argument.



> Minato also shunshinned half Konoha's distance to prevent Kurama from successfuly using Bijuudama on the village.
> 
> He also came to battlefield earlier than both Tobirama and Hashirama, Tobirama lately admitting that Minato's shunshin is faster than his.



This is why I explicitly stated how Minato's Shunshin is depicted as the most impressive because he's able to maintain that immense burst of speed over a significant distance, something that no Juubi Jin possessed. It'd be a fallacy to suggest that Minato maneuvers faster than a Juubi Jin based on Minato's ability to maintain his Shunshin over a larger distance.

Hiruzen also kept up with Tobirama and Hashirama, so they clearly weren't maneuvering at full speed.



> KCM Minato, despite his own great movement speed and KCM (the same as Naruto's, because it's other Kurama's half) had movement speed inferior to the speed of Tobirama's Shunshin. It is clear how fast Tobirama's Shunshin is.



You mean KCM Minato's reaction speed.

Movement speed alone is depicted as being vastly inferior to Shunshin among Elite Ninja. Kakashi, who employed Max Speed through Raikiri was still outpaced by Kakuzu's Shunshin in-spite of Kakashi possessing a 1 Tier advantage in speed. Tobirama's Shunshin even outmaneuvering KCM Minato's Shunshin speed means nothing.

Regardless, Tobirama outmaneuvered KCM Minato's reaction speed with Shunshin, but Base Bee replicated that same feat against V1 Raikage, so your argument holds no weight.



> Ei figured out how Minato's Hiraishin works. So those associations doesnt matter.
> 
> Possible only through Hiraishin? While Ei, with his top speed by the way, was going through a fewsantimeters distance, Minato threw kunai in the air, teleported to the near tree, moved a bit, teleported back to kunai before it went to high into the air and was about to backstab Ei. If he wanted to, he would have dodged his fastest punch without effort.
> 
> ...



That doesn't discredit how Hiraishin is associated with Teleportation, similar to Shunshin as well. Either way, Raikage knew how Hiraishin worked, but didn't know how Minato would utilize it and wasn't aware of how quick Minato was whilst using it which is why Raikage is astonished by Minato's ability to evade his speed. If it's any consolation, Raikage still referred to Minato's technique as Shunshin even after having first-hand experience:



Your example presented isn't a reflection of Minato's ability to evade his speed and I fail to see why. It still suggests that Minato was only capable of striking Raikage without reaction through FTG, similar to how Minato needed Hiraishin to outmaneuver Obito and target his rear as well. 

Better Shunshin hype? What? 

 What's amusing is that the Databook literally makes no reference to Minato's Shunshin speed at all as opposed to Kishimoto placing constant emphasis on Minato's accomplishments through Hiraishin where we're given a direct statement of how Minato's implementation of Hiraishin was what enabled Minato to obtain a large increase in prestige. There's literally no emphasis on Minato's incredible speed feats being associated with Shunshin at all. It's simply an argument fabricated by Minato fanboys based on their own misconceptions of the manga, nothing more.



> He never siad that to Naruto though. And in the context, it is obvious that he was talking about the shunshin speed and the speed overall, because he said that after his shunshin with Naruto and after Naruto praised his speed.
> 
> Plus, Minato's Shunshin feats are more impressive.



Context encompasses both events that precede and succeed established statements made within the manga. There's nothing preceding Minato and Raikage's clash that indicates what Raikage was referring to. On the other hand, we're given two examples that succeed Raikage's statement, one of which is a visual representation of how Minato evaded Raikage through Hiraishin while the other statement is a direct reference to that aforementioned visual representation. I'm honestly not sure how you got the implication that Raikage was referring to Shunshin speed, but it's simply a result of you distorting the context of Raikage's statement.

Not even the Databook conforms to that line of thinking considering the Databook confirmed that it was the great speed of the "Yellow Flash" that enabled him to surpass Raikage which the Databook establishes to be Minato's speed through Hiraishin.



> Not Raikage but some random shinobi.
> 
> No it shouldnt. He never saw Ei in combat before so he used that for precaution means. The way he dodged Ei's top speed proves that if he wanted to, he would have simply dodged Ei's punch.



And there's literally nothing that suggests that Raikage didn't live up to Minato's expectations of him.



> Edo Minato *in base* moved during Juubidara's Gudoudama flight, although Rinnegan Obito, for example, wouldnt be able to react to them, let alone moving during their flight.
> 
> Kakashi moved too. But i think that's just Kishi's PIS, that's all.



Minato's performance has just about as much credibility as Gaara's, Kakashi's and Lee's performance against JJ Madara. Simply acknowledging Minato based on your misconceptions of the manga is being truly dishonest.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kyu (Sep 28, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> *Minato>naruto>=<Tobirama>full speed AAAA* if you include hiraishin speed
> 
> Minato>Naruto>=tobirama>=<AAAA in reactions



The "speed" hierarchy in bold is redundant as Hiraishin isn't speed. FTG's activation is contingent on the user's reaction time.


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 28, 2016)

Kyu said:


> The "speed" hierarchy in bold is redundant as Hiraishin isn't speed. FTG's activation is contingent on the user's reaction time.



I took their reaction time into account when i made that. That particular hierachy was based moreso on how well they make use of their speed imo, as i pointed out here. Kinda hard to put into words exactly what i meant tho.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sort of... i guess i view narutos speed as more efficient? If thats the right word for it. Due to his superior reactions, he can use his speed to greater effect than tobi can despite tobi having a speed advantage. Thats probably the best way i can word it.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 28, 2016)

Minato's versatility, intelligence and stamina is far above from İtachi. This is not an easy match of course. He some real diff on İTachi but this is not even Minato Vs Tobi or Minato Vs Ay & Bee Combo. This one is easier to me.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## StarWanderer (Sep 28, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Yeah, Raikage admitted that Minato was faster than him and Raikage was aware of this decades ago, so he's not referencing Shunshin at all, I'm not sure how you came up with that conclusion considering C established Raikage as being physically faster.



He does, because he says that to Naruto after their shunshin and after Naruto praised his speed. Raikage was slower than Minato overall. In terms of physical speed and shunshin. And he admits that in the manga.

As for C's words, he never, ever, said that Ei was physically faster. I'll provide a proof from VIZ media.



And i agree with that. Ei's nerve transmission and reaction speed is most likely on par with Minato's. These words are words of Kishimoto, first of all. Nothing about Ei's superiority in terms of physical speed.

But what about Shunshin speed and movement speed? Because movement speed does not depend just on the nerve transmission speed.

That's a different story. Minato's Shunshin speed feats are more impressive, but i'll write about that later.



UchihaX28 said:


> Amaterasu was depicted as the "strongest" physical attack that was inescapable even for a Sharingan User. Minato's speed is never depicted to be on such a level at all, same applies to Kurama's speed.



Even for a Sharingan user? Sharingan gives precognition, it doesnt enchance shunshin speed at all.

As for Amaterasu speed, it just emerged before Ei and he shunshinned out of it's way before it could reach him, because after appearing, it moved towards Ei.

How fast is Enton after it is formed and starts to move?

Equal to FRS. 


It is unavoidable because in a surtain distance, it can form on the opponent.

Ei was out of that range.

Now lets take a look on what Third Raikage was capable of. He dodged KCM Naruto's attack and FRS, equal to Amaterasu flames in flight speed, *point-blank*. He basicly replicated Fourth raikage's feat of shunshinning out of Amaterasu flames, but he did it thanks to his own physical movement speed, not his shunshin speed.






SM Naruto easily counter-attacked Ei. He was a lot faster than The Third Raikage. It was a one-liner attack, but The Third could counter-attack, move in some way to prevent naruto from hitting him. He did it against KCM Naruto and his FRS, he could do that in this case, but he didnt.





What does that mean? It means that if SM Naruto was on Fourth's place, he would have easily dodged Amaterasu flames too, thanks to his physical movement speed, not just Shunshin speed.

Now how fast was Kurama's half? Lets see.



"So fast". And that's from basicly *the same War ARc SM Naruto* who easily counter-attacked Third Raiage Ei.

Now what Minato has done?

FTG'd to Kushina, because, as you most likely know, she was marked with Hiraishin formula, took her on his hands and shunshinned out of the way of full Kurama's attack, shunshinning on 100 meters distance in the process.




That's a great display of super-fast movement speed and the greatest Shunshin display among usual shinobi, with the exception of BM/BSM Naruto.

As for the speed with which the sharingan user cant keep up...




As we can see, Obito, a Sharingan user, is not even remotely comparable to Minato in terms of speed. Not just Shunshin, but speed overall. The only thing that kept Minato from fodder-stomping Obito was his Kamui, that's all.



UchihaX28 said:


> This is why I explicitly stated how Minato's Shunshin is depicted as the most impressive because he's able to maintain that immense burst of speed over a significant distance, something that no Juubi Jin possessed. It'd be a fallacy to suggest that Minato maneuvers faster than a Juubi Jin based on Minato's ability to maintain his Shunshin over a larger distance.
> 
> Hiruzen also kept up with Tobirama and Hashirama, so they clearly weren't maneuvering at full speed.



Juubito blitzed Tobirama and that's why his shunshin is a lot faster. That and few other feats are the reason why i can state that Juubi Jin's shunshin is a lot faster than Minato's Shunshin.

Minato's Shunshin is faster than Ei's at least, according to feats, according to manga, where he makes a huge distance in basicly one manga panel. He is faster than Ei in shunshin, that's it.




UchihaX28 said:


> You mean KCM Minato's reaction speed.
> 
> Movement speed alone is depicted as being vastly inferior to Shunshin among Elite Ninja. Kakashi, who employed Max Speed through Raikiri was still outpaced by Kakuzu's Shunshin in-spite of Kakashi possessing a 1 Tier advantage in speed. Tobirama's Shunshin even outmaneuvering KCM Minato's Shunshin speed means nothing.
> 
> Regardless, Tobirama outmaneuvered KCM Minato's reaction speed with Shunshin, but Base Bee replicated that same feat against V1 Raikage, so your argument holds no weight.



0.5 is a 1 tier advantage in speed?

Anyway the Databook can lie about character's speed and i can bring up Hidan's example, where he can keep up with Kakashi despite Kakashi having 4.5 in speed and Hidan having 3.5.

Minato wanted to teleport Gudoudama away as fast as possible, for the obvious reasons, yet Tobirama's clone shunshinned there and took it faster than Minato could. That's a legit demonstration of shunshin speed.

Base Bee is fast as well. V1 Ei's hit was countered by MS Sasuke, so there is no surprise Bee could do that, plus he used Hachibi's chakra to catch Ei's hit so he could probably use it for his speed as well.



UchihaX28 said:


> That doesn't discredit how Hiraishin is associated with Teleportation, similar to Shunshin as well. Either way, Raikage knew how Hiraishin worked, but didn't know how Minato would utilize it and wasn't aware of how quick Minato was whilst using it which is why Raikage is astonished by Minato's ability to evade his speed. If it's any consolation, Raikage still referred to Minato's technique as Shunshin even after having first-hand experience:



With the body flicker technique? Another instance where the VIZ media translation is a necessity. 

Ei figured out that Minato simply pops up at the location of the Hiraishin formula. Simply teleports. There is nothing about shunshin there. And a simple teleportation has nothing to do with speed.



UchihaX28 said:


> Your example presented isn't a reflection of Minato's ability to evade his speed and I fail to see why. It still suggests that Minato was only capable of striking Raikage without reaction through FTG, similar to how Minato needed Hiraishin to outmaneuver Obito and target his rear as well.



Ok, i'll give you an example.

Lets imagine that bullet flies at Neo from Matrix and that he has Hiraishin with lots of marked kunai. Lets just imagine it.

When the bullet is few santimeters from his face, he throws kunai in the air so fast it basicly moves a lot faster than the bullet. Because when the bullet can make a few santimeters distance, the kunai makes an approximately 1 meter distance. Neo teleports to a near tree, move a bit while bullet cant make a few santimeters distance, than teleports to the kunai which didnt make a great distance itself, although flying with an astonishing speed and prepares to hit it (who knows why, but lets just imagine this situation).

Who is physically a lot, and i mean *a lot*, faster in this situation? That's right - Neo. If he wanted to he would have moved himself out of the way of the bullet.

The same situation happens in Naruto manga. Minato is Neo and Raikage is a bullet.



UchihaX28 said:


> What's amusing is that the Databook literally makes no reference to Minato's Shunshin speed at all as opposed to Kishimoto placing constant emphasis on Minato's accomplishments through Hiraishin where we're given a direct statement of how Minato's implementation of Hiraishin was what enabled Minato to obtain a large increase in prestige. There's literally no emphasis on Minato's incredible speed feats being associated with Shunshin at all. It's simply an argument fabricated by Minato fanboys based on their own misconceptions of the manga, nothing more.



I am not Minato's fanboy. Just sayin'.

I remember The Databooks to say that Minato has a great speed and that he is the fastest in Godlike speed (in Databooks, Shunshin is a godlike speed by the way). I also remember Ei's RCM to be inferior to Minato's greta speed. It might be shunshin, or hiraishin, or both.

And judging from their performances in manga, it is both.



UchihaX28 said:


> Context encompasses both events that precede and succeed established statements made within the manga. There's nothing preceding Minato and Raikage's clash that indicates what Raikage was referring to. On the other hand, we're given two examples that succeed Raikage's statement, one of which is a visual representation of how Minato evaded Raikage through Hiraishin while the other statement is a direct reference to that aforementioned visual representation. I'm honestly not sure how you got the implication that Raikage was referring to Shunshin speed, but it's simply a result of you distorting the context of Raikage's statement.



It is because Naruto doesnt have Hiraishin so they shunshinned with each other. After that Naruto praised his speed. And *after* the praise, i said that Minato was faster. I remember giving you an example of two boxers having a sparring match. It's up there in this thread.




UchihaX28 said:


> Not even the Databook conforms to that line of thinking considering the Databook confirmed that it was the great speed of the "Yellow Flash" that enabled him to surpass Raikage which the Databook establishes to be Minato's speed through Hiraishin.



Minato's "great speed" = Minato's speed through Hiraishin in this case? I'd like to see a proof.




UchihaX28 said:


> Minato's performance has just about as much credibility as Gaara's, Kakashi's and Lee's performance against JJ Madara. Simply acknowledging Minato based on your misconceptions of the manga is being truly dishonest.



Against JJ Madara when 8th Gate Gai wasnt moving with his full speed?

I dont remember Gaara having a great performance against Juubidara's Gudoudama speed. Kakashi had, but he also was comparable to KCM Minato in terms of physical speed. It is the Kishimoto's will.

The fact is - Minato could moving during the flight of something Rinnegan Obito wouldnt be able to react to, at all.

Ei has no speed feats of that caliber.

As for the fight between Itachi and Minato, Minato simply shunshins, teleports his Susanoo away (and that's if he has fast enough reactions to create one) and cuts his throat, or crushes him with his Rasengan. If you are an Uchiha, you need to be in Rikudou Sasuke's, or EMS-higher version Madara's level in order to beat Minato. Itachi is not on that level. His attacks are useless against such a fast sensor with classic Hiraishin and, by the way, Hiraishin barrier. He is too slow. He has poor stamina. Etc.

Minato stomps.

P. S. I hope admins wont be angry with me not using "spoiler" thing.

Anyone with the brain cells should know that in these forums, especially in The Battledome, almost every post is a spoiler, with or without scans.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## hbcaptain (Sep 28, 2016)

Minato wins.

It's pretty clear, if Itachi had a lot of problems against Base Bee using Acrobat without even letting an opening for a Genjutsu, then he doesn't have any chance against Minato's FTG combo, Hiraishin level2 and level3 are impossible to physically dodge or counter, thus he will be constantly forced to use Susano'o if he wants to survive. And wih his stamina drastically decreasing, Itachi's chances of winning are pretty slim. 

Minato's moves aren't only speed based, they're not only linera that's why Minato is a much harder openent to deal with compared to Raikage's direct Shunshin.

Itachi's only chance is to create openings using finger Genjutsu, but this Genjutsu is so weak (even P2 Naruto nearly broke the illusion) it's not even a factor, and Minato can always teleport at a blank range with his great reaction speed. And since he is aware of the Genjutsu with Full knowledge...

Clones are also a good counter to Genjutsu.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 28, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Minato wins.
> 
> It's pretty clear, if Itachi had a lot of problems against Base Bee using Acrobat without even letting an opening for a Genjutsu, then he doesn't have any chance against Minato's FTG combo, Hiraishin level2 and level3 are impossible to physically dodge or counter, thus he will be constantly forced to use Susano'o if he wants to survive. And wih his stamina drastically decreasing, Itachi's chances of winning are pretty slim.
> 
> ...




Can you find a panel where Itachi "had a lot of problems against base Bee's acrobat?   Also, the genjutsu was already used prior to that, and it got countered, so he won't be using again. Your logic is so flawed. 

Can you tell me what Lv 3 Hirashin is? Lmao  

I don't remember seeing it in the manga.

Level 2 gets avoided by deflecting Kunai....Pretty simple...


Any evidence that the finger genjutsu was weak?  In fact, it was Itachi saying Naruto was still weak, not "naruto nearly broke the illusion". 

Minato may be aware of genjutsu, but that doesn't stop Itachi from using it regardless. He's done it many times before. 

FTG, however, is going to get countered hard with full knowledge.


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 29, 2016)

Looks like minato is cleaning house here, 12 votes to 6, with one undecided. Most people also say minato mid diffs, hardly surprising really.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 29, 2016)

I don't see Itachi winning, especially since he can be teleported outside Susanoo.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Serene Grace (Sep 29, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Itachi should take this with relatively low difficulty.
> 
> Totsuka pierce, Susanoo or Tsukuyomi troll Minato. Minato is not trained like Gai to not look into their opponents, implying that he can fight as good as he normally does without looking into his eyes is silly, baseless and screams Minato fanboy.
> 
> ...


yet he fought Obito, who is capable of doing genjutsu, yet he didn't do it. You'd think that people would see that sharingan genjutsu doesn't work the way people think it does, because if it did madara would have beat hashirama, izuna would have beat tobirama, obito would have beat minato and Itachi woudl have just ended his fight with nagato in mere seconds.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 29, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> yet he fought Obito, who is capable of doing genjutsu, yet he didn't do it. You'd think that people would see that sharingan genjutsu doesn't work the way people think it does, because if it did madara would have beat hashirama, izuna would have beat tobirama, obito would have beat minato and Itachi woudl have just ended his fight with nagato in mere seconds.



 Itachi is simply a superior Sharingan user. That's the equivalent of claiming that Itachi can't capture Minato in a genjutsu because a 7 yr old Uchiha couldn't even do so. It's faulty logic when Itachi is clearly significantly more skilled in gejutsu and he's even above Shisui in that department as well.


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## Serene Grace (Sep 29, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Itachi is simply a superior Sharingan user.
> That's the equivalent of claiming that Itachi can't capture Minato in a genjutsu because a 7 yr old Uchiha couldn't even do so.
> What?
> It's faulty logic when Itachi is clearly significantly more skilled in gejutsu and he's even above Shisui in that department as well.



That's canonically incorrect, Madara had the strongest form of Sharingan and pushed the sharingan to its final limit, literally making him a better sharingan user then Itachi.

What? A 7 year old? how does that equal to MS Obito, MS Izuna, EMS Madara and EMS/Rinnegan Sasuke, I don't understand where you were going there.

Did you ignore the Nagato example I used? Itachi didn't even once think about using genjutsu even though that would have been the easiest and smartest thing to do, but he didn't. This is a recurring trend in the manga, so what is everyone's conclusion, sharingan users just don't wanna win? I mean sasuke for god sakes put all the Bijui at once in a genjutsu with a mere glance, he surpassed Itachi in genjutsu yet he didn't even try genjutsu on Naruto.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 29, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> That's canonically incorrect, Madara had the strongest form of Sharingan and pushed the sharingan to its final limit, literally making him a better sharingan user then Itachi.



 That would equate to higher potency in regards to Genjutsu, not greater skill.



> What? A 7 year old? how does that equal to MS Obito, MS Izuna, EMS Madara and EMS/Rinnegan Sasuke, I don't understand where you were going there.



 It doesn't, but I was questioning the logic you were applying. 



> Did you ignore the Nagato example I used? Itachi didn't even once think about using genjutsu even though that would have been the easiest and smartest thing to do, but he didn't. This is a recurring trend in the manga, so what is everyone's conclusion, sharingan users just don't wanna win? I mean sasuke for god sakes put all the Bijui at once in a genjutsu with a mere glance, he surpassed Itachi in genjutsu yet he didn't even try genjutsu on Naruto.



 I don't care about Nagato considering the Rinnegan possesses the Yin Chakra from the Uchiha which grants Nagato automatic resistance towards Itachi's Genjutsu. With that said, a recurring tend is Itachi capturing every ninja with genjutsu in-spite of them possessing knowledge. I hope you've actually read the manga because that's always been the case as such with Sasuke, Naruto, Bee, and Kabuto.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 29, 2016)

That awkward moment when people try to say that Itachi will fail to use genjutsu on Minato because all the other Uchiha's don't use their own genjutsu is absolutely hilarious.

Itachi has probably used more genjutsu's in the entirely of the manga than all other Uchiha's combined. 


The only one remotely close to using it during battle is Sasuke, and even then his usage is weak compared to Itachi.

You see....Obito had multiple battles, but we only see him use it in.....2 battle? 1 against Konan and another against Kakashi.

The one against Danzo's lapdogs doesn't really count.


Madara....?    1 against Obito (to show something), 1 against fodder and another against A V2 after a long battle.....


As for Itachi?.....Oh boy.....

Kakashi x 2
Sasuke x  2 Tsukuyomi, numerous other genjutsu/layers.
Killer Bee x 1
Naruto x 2
Deidara x 1
Orochimaru x 1
Random woman in part 1 x 1
Kurenai x 1
SM Kabuto x 2

One against himself as well....


So yeah.....Itachi WON'T be using genjutsu on Minato in this battle..... just look at how little he uses genjutsu in his battles.




Another funny thing is about teleporting people outside/inside Susano....Might as well start saying Minato teleports the Raikage's raiton shroud away from him or Naruto's kyuubi chakra cloak.


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## Jackalinthebox (Sep 29, 2016)

Minato has the superior Shunshin of the two, has his boss summon, teleportation, space time barrier, skills with a kunai and of course the Rasengan. He can counter a good portion of Itachi's arsenal and can outlast him as well. Minato is the stronger of the two in my eyes

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Sep 29, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Minato has the superior Shunshin of the two, has his boss summon, teleportation, space time barrier, skills with a kunai and of course the Rasengan. He can counter a good portion of Itachi's arsenal and can outlast him as well. Minato is the stronger of the two in my eyes



Boss summon is fodder in this battle via sharingan genjutsu and tosuka sword.

Space time barrier is useless here because Itachi has no jutsu that it'll be effective against. 

Itachi is far superior with shuriken usage.

Rasengan isn't going to do anything against rib-cage Susano.

What is your argument? 

I might as well start listing stuff like this.

Itachi has superior eyes. Superior genjutsu. Superior intellect. Superior shuriken skills. Superior analytical ability. Superior mind reading skills. Superior destructive capability. Superior defense. Superior feinting skills. Superior clone usage. Superior wisdom.


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## Jackalinthebox (Sep 29, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Boss summon is fodder in this battle via sharingan genjutsu and tosuka sword.
> 
> Space time barrier is useless here because Itachi has no jutsu that it'll be effective against.
> 
> ...


Minato could find uses for Gama I'm sure. Yasaka Magatama, Katon jutsu and Suiton jutsu ring a bell? Those would all be countered by his space time barrier. And Minato can definitely make a Rasengan big enough to where it would break through Itachi's Susano'o ribcage. Not that he'd need to, Itachi can't use Susano'o for very long after all


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## Android (Sep 29, 2016)

Here's another one  
- Itachi uses Totsuka blade to attack Minato .
- S/T barrier redirect that garbage into hitting Itachi instead .

Neg diff win for the blondy


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## Sapherosth (Sep 29, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Minato could find uses for Gama I'm sure. Yasaka Magatama, Katon jutsu and Suiton jutsu ring a bell? Those would all be countered by his space time barrier. And Minato can definitely make a Rasengan big enough to where it would break through Itachi's Susano'o ribcage. Not that he'd need to, Itachi can't use Susano'o for very long after all




Gama's only use in this battle is to be Itachi's lapdog via sharingan genjutsu control or going to visit Oro in BottleLand.

yasaka, katon, suiton gets dodged via FTG. Not sure why barrier is needed. 

Also, proof Minato has any big rasengans that can bust rib-cage? 

Outlasting isn't an option either. We've never seen a battle where it comes down to outlasting in stamina. The closest to that is Madara vs Hashirama where Hash has more chakra, but is just as weakend/tired as Madara.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 30, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Here's another one
> - Itachi uses Totsuka blade to attack Minato .
> - S/T barrier redirect that garbage into hitting Itachi instead .
> 
> Neg diff win for the blondy



 Or it simply pierces through the S/T barrier & kills off Minato and seals it away because you know, Totsuka seals away anything it pierces.


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 30, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Space time barrier is useless here because Itachi has no jutsu that it'll be effective against.



This is baseless, S/T barrier neg diffs a juubi bomb, its gonna handle anything itachi can throw at it just fine.



Sapherosth said:


> Itachi is far superior with shuriken usage.



Irrelevant, minato wont be tagged with shuriken, he is simply too fast, or simply blocks them with his own shuriken, hes demonstrated the ability to intercept other shuriken with his own before. Shuriken also hardly seems like a deciding factor in a death match to me, but whatever.



Sapherosth said:


> Rasengan isn't going to do anything against rib-cage Susano.


Perhaps not, but the point is itachi *cant survive a single rasengan without susanoo*,if minato blitzes him before he puts susanoo up, he is dead. Or if itachi manages to get susanoo up, minato just easily stalls him out until itachi drops susanoo due to fatigue, and then kills him with one rasengan.



Sapherosth said:


> Another funny thing is about teleporting people outside/inside Susano....Might as well start saying Minato teleports the Raikage's raiton shroud away from him or Naruto's kyuubi chakra cloak.


And a funny thing about this is, its hardly the only option minato has against susanoo. If minato gets a seal on itachi prior to him activating susanoo, minato could without a doubt port inside susanoo and snap itachis neck/cut his throat/rasengan to the anywhere and itachis dead. Theres no reason whatsoever to even think susanoo would be able to prevent minato from porting inside, *susanoo isnt even airtight*, hows it gonna prevent S/T ninjutsu from entering it exactly?

And again, minato has another option, he can simply outlast susanoo, which is his most likely choice imo. Minato is simply too fast for susanoo to tag him with anything, he could dance around totsukas all day every day until itachi is winded. Or he could decide to play it safe, and stick to mid/long range against susanoo, and S/T barrier anything itachi throws at him until itachi is winded.

Itachi is a dead man at close quarters, without susanoo, he doesnt last 10 seconds before minato FTGs him and rasengan blitz gg. And as @cctr9 pointed out, minato can tag itachi with ease, but itachi needs a miracle to even come within striking distance of minato kinda clear cut who takes it.all minato needs to do to win this fight, is pressure itachi into using susanoo, and then bully susanoo until itachi gets tired, then win, done deal.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Android (Sep 30, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Or it simply pierces through the S/T barrier & kills off Minato and seals it away because you know, Totsuka seals away anything it pierces.


You have a good imagination .
1......2........3........... Aaaaaaaand wake up 
Yeah Totsuka seals what it pierces , which would be Itachi's poverty ass in this case .

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Sapherosth (Sep 30, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> This is baseless, S/T barrier neg diffs a juubi bomb, its gonna handle anything itachi can throw at it just fine.



Irrelevant. Not Itachi's fighting style.




> Irrelevant, minato wont be tagged with shuriken, he is simply too fast, or simply blocks them with his own shuriken, hes demonstrated the ability to intercept other shuriken with his own before. Shuriken also hardly seems like a deciding factor in a death match to me, but whatever.



What you said is pretty much irrelevant because shurikens isn't to kill, but to stop Minato's ftg usage by stopping his Kunai's, which can be done.

Stop the kunai's, stop Minato's entire arsenal. Why can't you Minato tards see an obvious weakness with FTG? lmao. 




> Perhaps not, but the point is itachi *cant survive a single rasengan without susanoo*,if minato blitzes him before he puts susanoo up, he is dead. Or if itachi manages to get susanoo up, minato just easily stalls him out until itachi drops susanoo due to fatigue, and then kills him with one rasengan.



Irrelevant. Itachi only needs Susano when he's in danger. He's not going to be in danger if he avoids the kunai's.



> And a funny thing about this is, its hardly the only option minato has against susanoo. If minato gets a seal on itachi prior to him activating susanoo, minato could without a doubt port inside susanoo and snap itachis neck/cut his throat/rasengan to the anywhere and itachis dead. Theres no reason whatsoever to even think susanoo would be able to prevent minato from porting inside, *susanoo isnt even airtight*, hows it gonna prevent S/T ninjutsu from entering it exactly?



Yeah...But Minato isn't going to tag Itachi, so again, irrelevant.

Raiton shrouds and Chakra cloaks aren't airtight either.



> And again, minato has another option, he can simply outlast susanoo, which is his most likely choice imo. Minato is simply too fast for susanoo to tag him with anything, he could dance around totsukas all day every day until itachi is winded. Or he could decide to play it safe, and stick to mid/long range against susanoo, and S/T barrier anything itachi throws at him until itachi is winded.



Show me an instance where a high tier character outlasts another during a 1v1 battle?

Minato isn't too fast for feints and genjutsu.



> Itachi is a dead man at close quarters, without susanoo, he doesnt last 10 seconds before minato FTGs him and rasengan blitz gg. And as @cctr9 pointed out, minato can tag itachi with ease, but itachi needs a miracle to even come within striking distance of minato kinda clear cut who takes it.all minato needs to do to win this fight, is pressure itachi into using susanoo, and then bully susanoo until itachi gets tired, then win, done deal.



Close quarters Minato will just get killed by an explosion bunshin. Minato can FTG all he wants, but Itachi has explosive bunshins that directly counters Minato's FTG tag. These bunshins can be created without Minato's knowledge as well because Itachi's handsigns are too fast to see.


Minato is getting outsmarted and killed, especially with full knowledge.

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## Jackalinthebox (Sep 30, 2016)

So let me get this right; Minato is fast enough reaction wise and attack speed wise that he can lift his arm and toss a kunai into the air before full speed V2 Ei's fist can cross two or three inches. Yet he can't even see Itachi's hand signs at all? Sounds legit. What's next, not even Rinnegan Sasuke can react to Itachi's hand weaving?

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## Sapherosth (Sep 30, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> So let me get this right; Minato is fast enough reaction wise and attack speed wise that he can lift his arm and toss a kunai into the air before full speed V2 Ei's fist can cross two or three inches. Yet he can't even see Itachi's hand signs at all? Sounds legit. What's next, not even Rinnegan Sasuke can react to Itachi's hand weaving?




Cool.....


Minato has a better Sharingan than Kakashi and Sasuke at reading handsigns.


Well done......

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 1, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Irrelevant. Not Itachi's fighting style.


Minato would force it to be itachis style if he stays at a distance tho, my point was, itachis most powerful distance attack, Yasaka, gets loltrolled by S/T barrier, so when/if itachi brings it out, minato neg diffs it.



Sapherosth said:


> What you said is pretty much irrelevant because shurikens isn't to kill, but to stop Minato's ftg usage by stopping his Kunai's, which can be done.
> 
> Stop the kunai's, stop Minato's entire arsenal. Why can't you Minato tards see an obvious weakness with FTG? lmao.



Minato doesnt need his kunai to be airborne to port to them you know...hell he doesnt even need to touch them once he ports to them





How does itachi knocking his kunai out of the air gonna hinder any amount of minatos mobility whatsoever? Oh thats right, it doesnt, as minato could still use the kunai that were intercepted by itachis shuriken for hiraishin to *avoid literally everything itachi can ever think of to throw at him. *

Avoid itachis entire arsenal, stop itachis entire arsenal. Why cant you itachi tards realize that while itachi is good, he can never land a hit on minato due FTGs sheer speed and minatos insane reaction time? Add to that itachi has 0, i repeat *zero* counter for FTG.



Sapherosth said:


> Irrelevant. *Itachi only needs Susano when he's in danger.* He's not going to be in danger if he avoids the kunai's.



SPOILERS itachi is always gonna be in danger, and will need susanoo to defend against that constant danger, because as i said, he cant live a rasengan without it. How would itachi avoid the kunai , if for example, minato creates a kage bunshin, said kage bunshin gets behind itachi while the real minato is in front, and then both throw a handful of kunai? Or minato makes 4 KBs and surrounds itachi on all sides and they all throw kunai? Hes not avoiding em all, he cant even see em all, hed need to block em all, which is what would literally end him. Blocking, means physical contact, which means close proximity, which means, itachis already dead due to FTG rasengan blitz. Itachis only way out of this proposed scenario, would be to block with susanoo, and minato would then rinse repeat this plan, forcing itachi to keep susanoo up and thus exhaust him.



Sapherosth said:


> *Yeah...But Minato isn't going to tag Itachi,* so again, irrelevant.
> 
> Raiton shrouds and Chakra cloaks aren't airtight either.



Concession that minato can port inside susanoo easily accepted. He doesnt even need to mark itachi directly to do so really, just lure itachi to a place where his susanoo would be standing on top of a kunai on the ground and hed achieve the same result. Itachi blocking minatos kunai means literally nothing, the mere fact that the kunai *exist and are in play*, allow minato insane zoning capabilities and limit itachis movement considerably, cuz if he stands even within arms reach of one, he could easily get blitzed and killed. Meaning, even after itachi intercepts a kunai, he needs to be very, very wary of its position, literally at all times, if he loses track of a single kunai, and strays a little to close to one, he is dead. *Fact.*

Minato places a kunai on the ground, he has claimed that ground and all things in its immediate vicinity as his domain, and he declares all uchihas enemies of the state. Enemies of the state are killed on sight.

Minato, fast enough to react to AAAA's top speed, outmaneuver kamui, can FCD across an entire village, but is apparently not gonna catch lord itachi. Nope, not buying it. Unless itachi avoids every single kunai minato owns, which as i pointed out above, is extremely difficult if not impossible for itachi to do, itachi is getting tagged low diff without keeping susanoo up 24/7. In additio to that, if minato even *grazes* itachis clothes with his hand, itachi is a dead man, as minato would mark him and could then kill itachi literally whenever he felt like doing so.

Shrouds and cloaks are irrelevant, and while i agree with you, no one here has one why bring it up???



Sapherosth said:


> Show me an instance where a high tier character outlasts another during a 1v1 battle?
> 
> Minato isn't too fast for feints and genjutsu.



How about hashi vs madara??? They are pretty high tier right? Hashi outlasted in the sense that madara didnt have the chakra remaining to use sharingan, which meant hashi could now clone feint for the kill. Madara stated he could tell the difference between a moku bunshin and the original with his sharingan, so hashi waited until he no longer had the chakra for that to be an option. Seems like an outlast 2 me.

Sasuke vs danzo? They're half high tier. Sasuke outlasted izanagi, which then allowed him to outlast danzo and go for the kill.

How about kisame vs Killer Bee? Or off  panel, Kisame vs any jin he has ever fought? Or debatably any opponent in general he has ever fought? Kisames entire shtick is outlasting his opponents, of course he kinda cheats, in that he steals ur stamina and makes it his, either way, hes high tier, jins are high tier, and he does outlast em.

Want another one? How about oro vs the third? They are kinda high tier right? Oro outlasted in the sense that when the third used shiki fujin, he didnt have enough stamina left to pull out oros entire soul, which allowed oro the victory as the third died as a result of the seal. Not 1v1 i grant u, but still.Seems like an outlast 2 me.

Minato doesnt even need to do anything ooc to avoid being hit with genjutsu, his mere fighting style negates it for him. He is constantly blitzing his opponent with blind side attacks, itachi needs eye contact, minato being behind him 90% of the fight is gonna make that real hard. And while we are on the subject, whats stopping minato from letting itachi hit his clone with a genjutsu and killing itachi while he thinks he caught the real minato? Kakashi pulled off this feint against itachi, pretty sure minato can.



Sapherosth said:


> Close quarters Minato will just get killed by an explosion bunshin. Minato can FTG all he wants, but Itachi has explosive bunshins that directly counters Minato's FTG tag. These bunshins can be created without Minato's knowledge as well because Itachi's handsigns are too fast to see.
> 
> 
> Minato is getting outsmarted and killed, especially with full knowledge.



Close quarters, itachi is dead via FTG blitz before he can even blink, let alone prep an exploding bunshin. But for the sake of argument, lets assume minato like to play with his food and doesnt outright kill itachi in close quarters, despite the fact its laughably easy for him to do so if itachi doesnt hide behind susanoo. Itachi creates an exploding bunshin, minato notices its an exploding bunshin, just like kakashi did back in part 1, and dodges with ease, just like kakashi did back in part 1. How does an exploding bunshin counter FTG? Minato can react to the raikages top speed, and have enough time to throw a kunai away from the raikage, port to another kunai, wait until the first kunai is behind the raikage, then port back to it and be in position for a lethal blow before the raikage can react, but u think an exploding bunshin of all things, is gonna be beyond minatos ability to react to and avoid?

Bunshins also take a lot of chakra, itachi has been noted to have kinda sub par reserves, he makes a bunshin, and minato dodges the explosion like he will do, then itachi has wasted a chunk of stamina against an opponent with far more stamina than him to begin with.

Minato is gonna be outsmarted and killed? Guess you forgot that full knowledge is given to both parties. Minato is at minimum, itachis equal in intelligence and analytical ability. Minato knows Itachis kit is far more taxing than his own, and the majority of itachis kit, is low diff avoided/negated by minatos kit. You really think minato is gonna be unable to make use of this knowledge?


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 1, 2016)

@WorldsStrongest

 So Itachi has no counter for FTG when he possessed a counter for Nagato's Rinnegan? Does that sound right to you?

Reactions: Dislike 4


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 1, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> @WorldsStrongest
> 
> So Itachi has no counter for FTG when he possessed a counter for Nagato's Rinnegan? Does that sound right to you?



Does nagatos rinnegan allow you to teleport around the battlefield at blinding speeds? No? Is nagato himself ever noted for insane mobility? Can nagato even remotely compete with minato in terms of reaction time? No? Than yes, that does sound right to me. Itachi also needed naruto and bee to assist him in countering nagatos rinnegan techs, he hardly did it alone. Nagatos attention was focused on naruto and bee when itachi used shuriken to blind nagatos summons, and naruto and bee assisted itachi in blowing up CTs core.

As i pointed out to you before, nagato has nothing to compete with FTG, nagato beats minato in many areas thanks to the rinnegan, such as sheer DC for instance, but minato is tiers above nagato in speed and reactions and mobility. Nagato has nothing that is remotely similar to FTG. Its apples and oranges to compare FTG to rinnegan, itachis kit is useful against rinnegan, that doesnt mean its useful against FTG. This doesnt make FTG better than rinnegan, it just makes FTG a better matchup against itachi than the rinnegan.


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 1, 2016)

@UchihaX28 my earlier message to you, saying why it doesnt make sense to compare rinnegan with ftg.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Nagato has nothing to compare with FTG, he has no techs that are at all similar to Hiraishin and no techs that can begin to compare in speed, saying he has superior jutsu to hiraishin holds no water whatsoever as hiraishin is a completely different style of technique than any rinnegan tech. Nagato has greater DC sure, but thats not what FTG is used for so no comparison can be made really.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 1, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Does nagatos rinnegan allow you to teleport around the battlefield at blinding speeds? No? Is nagato himself ever noted for insane mobility? Can nagato even remotely compete with minato in terms of reaction time? No? Than yes, that does sound right to me. Itachi also needed naruto and bee to assist him in countering nagatos rinnegan techs, he hardly did it alone. Nagatos attention was focused on naruto and bee when itachi used shuriken to blind nagatos summons, and naruto and bee assisted itachi in blowing up CTs core.



That's irrelevant when having an instantaneous technique that repels everything at Nagato's own whim coupled with 360 degree vision that enhances Nagato's own reaction time simply could not counter it. That's far better than simply warping away considering he lacks the enhanced reactions that Nagato's defense provides which is essential against Itachi who utilizes cunning distractions whilst launching jutsus simultaneously at speeds where not even SM Kabuto nor Sharingan users could perceive.

False. Nagato's Summons relays information and gives him heightened perception & awareness of everything that occurs at all times. Him being occupied with Naruto and Bee is irrelevant because of that and Itachi was fast enough to absolutely blitz Nagato before he even registered that his heightened perception was cut off. The only thing that's remotely accurate about your post is the fact that Itachi required the gang to counter Chibaku Tensei, but there's very little relevancy in that when all of Nagato's arsenal outside of his trump cards shits on Minato's.


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 1, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> That's irrelevant when having an instantaneous technique that repels everything at Nagato's own whim coupled with 360 degree vision that enhances Nagato's own reaction time simply could not counter it.


Whats irrelevant? The fact nagatos rinnegan has zero similarities with ftg, so itachi being able to counter one, in no way means he should be able to counter the other? In addition to this, FTG is instantaneous as well, and it has the added benefit of not needing a cooldown of 5 seconds,ST doesnt enhance nagatos reaction time, nor does shared vision, it allows him to percieve threats from seperate povs than his own, but his reaction speed to them remains the same he needs to see tha he is in danger, then activate ST before it can defend him, same goes for minato and ftg, only difference is, minato is way faster than nagato, thus can register the fact he is in danger much faster than nagato can, then get himself out of said danger by porting away.



UchihaX28 said:


> False. Nagato's Summons relays information and gives him heightened perception & awareness of everything that occurs at all times.


This has literally nothing to do with anything in this thread, i have pointed out to you thrice now, that rinnegan=/=FTG, so and nagato =/= minato, the fact itachi countered one (with help), means jack shit against the other. But I will address this anyway, what the hell. Itachi was stated to have targeted the summons from their blind spots and attacked nagato, making that heightened perception irrelevant. 

We are also not given a time frame from when itachi attacked with his susanoo, and when the summons were taken out, although from this panel, it looks like it all happened simultaneously,  note the panel with the chameleons eye being hit with kunai, happening the same time itachi attacks nagato with susanoo, meaning itachi didnt blitz nagato at all, but attacked yet again, from a blind spot against an opponent stated to have shit mobility. None of these factors are true for minato, making itachis performance against nagato, irrelevant against minato. Nagato and minato use completely different techniques, and have completely different styles of combat, and minato isnt crippled like nagato was.



UchihaX28 said:


> but there's very little relevancy in that when all of Nagato's arsenal outside of his trump cards shits on Minato's.



Ill tell you what has very little relevancy, you constantly bringing up itachi vs nagato, i honestly do not understand why you believe it matters to this thread whatsoever. Minato is much , much faster than nagato, and much more reactive, meaning he can avoid things nagato cannot, minato also doesnt start this fight with his back turned to itachi, also another big difference. Rinnegan has nothing in common with FTG, and FTG counters itachis kit due to itachi being unable to land a hit on someone who is that fast, its that simple.

The rinnegan doesnt add any speed or mobility, FTG is all speed and mobility, comparing the two is a waste of time, as their focus is on entirely different things. Itachi countered the rinnegans focus by outflanking it and attacking from its blindspot, Itachi cant counter FTGs focus the same way, because its extremely difficult to outflank ftg due to the fact its so fast and unpredictable in that its user can go to any marked location they see fit. The user of FTG can effectively change their blind spots at will, by using instantaneous movement, making blind spot attacks nigh impossible. Far faster opponents than itachi have tried and failed to outflank ftg. FTGs speed and mobility arent the only differences between it and the rinnegan, minatos reaction time allows him to further abuse ftgs speed against his opponents. Minato has reacted to and outpaced far faster opponents than itachi, and minato himself is far faster and more reactive than nagato.

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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 1, 2016)

Countering Vision and Line of Sight is easier than countering Instant Teleportation!

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Sapherosth (Oct 1, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Minato would force it to be itachis style if he stays at a distance tho, my point was, itachis most powerful distance attack, Yasaka, gets loltrolled by S/T barrier, so when/if itachi brings it out, minato neg diffs it.



Er.....But Minato's style is CQC. Even if he wanted to, he cannot force Itachi to do anything from a distance. The only long ranged techniqu Minato has is a kunai toss.





> Minato doesnt need his kunai to be airborne to port to them you know...hell he doesnt even need to touch them once he ports to them



I am not on about that. I am on about how Itachi can keep every single Kunai away from him.




> *How does itachi knocking his kunai out of the air gonna hinder any amount of minatos mobility whatsoever?* Oh thats right, it doesnt, as minato could still use the kunai that were intercepted by itachis shuriken for hiraishin to *avoid literally everything itachi can ever think of to throw at him.*




It stops Minato from going places he wants to go, and it allows Itachi to anticipate where Minato is going to jump.




> Avoid itachis entire arsenal, stop itachis entire arsenal. Why cant you itachi tards realize that while itachi is good, he can never land a hit on minato due FTGs sheer speed and minatos insane reaction time? Add to that itachi has 0, i repeat *zero* counter for FTG.




Irrelevant. Genjutsu bypasses all that.




> SPOILERS itachi is always gonna be in danger, and will need susanoo to defend against that constant danger, because as i said, he cant live a rasengan without it. How would itachi avoid the kunai , if for example, minato creates a kage bunshin, said kage bunshin gets behind itachi while the real minato is in front, and then both throw a handful of kunai? Or minato makes 4 KBs and surrounds itachi on all sides and they all throw kunai? Hes not avoiding em all, he cant even see em all, hed need to block em all, which is what would literally end him. Blocking, means physical contact, which means close proximity, which means, itachis already dead due to FTG rasengan blitz. Itachis only way out of this proposed scenario, would be to block with susanoo, and minato would then rinse repeat this plan, forcing itachi to keep susanoo up and thus exhaust him.



All Itachi needs is shurikens to keep Minato's kunai's at bay....Itachi is in no danger at all whereas Minato is in constant danger of getting blown up or tortured inside genjutsu.

Avoiding a kunai is easier than avoiding genjutsu.





> Concession that minato can port inside susanoo easily accepted. He doesnt even need to mark itachi directly to do so really, just lure itachi to a place where his susanoo would be standing on top of a kunai on the ground and hed achieve the same result. Itachi blocking minatos kunai means literally nothing, the mere fact that the kunai *exist and are in play*, allow minato insane zoning capabilities and limit itachis movement considerably, cuz if he stands even within arms reach of one, he could easily get blitzed and killed. Meaning, even after itachi intercepts a kunai, he needs to be very, very wary of its position, literally at all times, if he loses track of a single kunai, and strays a little to close to one, he is dead. *Fact.*



Minato isn't zoning anything when all of his Kunai's are going to be in places where Itachi wants them to be - out of range. 

Again, Minato will be the one who's pressured from feints/crows and genjutsu. 




> Minato places a kunai on the ground, he has claimed that ground and all things in its immediate vicinity as his domain, and he declares all uchihas enemies of the state. Enemies of the state are killed on sight.



Killer Bee already reacted to a FTG surprise attack. Itachi has already shown comparable reflexes. 



> Minato, fast enough to react to AAAA's top speed, outmaneuver kamui, can FCD across an entire village, but is apparently not gonna catch lord itachi. Nope, not buying it. Unless itachi avoids every single kunai minato owns, which as i pointed out above, is extremely difficult if not impossible for itachi to do, itachi is getting tagged low diff without keeping susanoo up 24/7. In additio to that, if minato even *grazes* itachis clothes with his hand, itachi is a dead man, as minato would mark him and could then kill itachi literally whenever he felt like doing so.



Itachi has shown to outmaneuver Killer Bee without the use of FTG and actually dealt damage to Bee while Minato couldn't. 

He also showed superior reflexes to EMS Sasuke, which kept up with BM Naruto, who reacted to AAAA's top speed. 

FCD gets a tosuka sword stabbed up Bunta's ass. Completely out of character for Minato to sacrifice his summons like that.

Marking Itachi wouldn't kill him. Killer Bee reacted to it already and Itachi has shown comparable reflexes. 




> Shrouds and cloaks are irrelevant, and while i agree with you, no one here has one why bring it up???



Because those shrouds and cloaks are essentially the same as Susano. They are the manifestation of the user's chakra (shroud is anyway), and Cloaks are actually an entirely different chakra so they should've been able to separate it easily. But it was never done....





> How about hashi vs madara??? They are pretty high tier right? Hashi outlasted in the sense that madara didnt have the chakra remaining to use sharingan, which meant hashi could now clone feint for the kill. Madara stated he could tell the difference between a moku bunshin and the original with his sharingan, so hashi waited until he no longer had the chakra for that to be an option. Seems like an outlast 2 me.



After how many hours of fighting? Those 2 were just as exhausted as each other. You are saying Minato is going to outlast as if Minato isn't going to break a sweat while Itachi will be completely drained and dying. Never going to happen. 

This fight will end way before anyone runs out of chakra.





> Sasuke vs danzo? They're half high tier. Sasuke outlasted izanagi, which then allowed him to outlast danzo and go for the kill.




What is Minato's answer to Izanami exactly? Minato essentially uses repetitive moves with FTG, so Izanami counters it so hard. The only argument here is how long it will take for Minato to see through Izanami and break through it.

Regardless, it gives enough time for an opening because we see Killer Bee instantly breaking through a genjutsu via partner method and nearly got hit by Itachi's follow up. There's no way Minato can break through Izanami faster than that.




> How about kisame vs Killer Bee? Or off  panel, Kisame vs any jin he has ever fought? Or debatably any opponent in general he has ever fought? Kisames entire shtick is outlasting his opponents, of course he kinda cheats, in that he steals ur stamina and makes it his, either way, hes high tier, jins are high tier, and he does outlast em.



Because he has to capture, not kill. How can he stop his opponent without killing him without outlasting?



> Want another one? How about oro vs the third? They are kinda high tier right? Oro outlasted in the sense that when the third used shiki fujin, he didnt have enough stamina left to pull out oros entire soul, which allowed oro the victory as the third died as a result of the seal. Not 1v1 i grant u, but still.Seems like an outlast 2 me.



Hiruzen was old and weak. He and Orochimaru wasn't equal at all at that time. 



> Minato doesnt even need to do anything ooc to avoid being hit with genjutsu, his mere fighting style negates it for him. He is constantly blitzing his opponent with blind side attacks, itachi needs eye contact, minato being behind him 90% of the fight is gonna make that real hard. And while we are on the subject, whats stopping minato from letting itachi hit his clone with a genjutsu and killing itachi while he thinks he caught the real minato? Kakashi pulled off this feint against itachi, pretty sure minato can.




Strange how during the Minato vs Obito fight, Minato looks directly into Obito's eyes. It seems IN CHARACTER for him to look into the sharingan, actually.

And it is also IN CHARACTER for Itachi to cast genjutsu on all of his opponents. 

Not sure why this fight is any different.





> Close quarters, itachi is dead via FTG blitz before he can even blink, let alone prep an exploding bunshin. But for the sake of argument, lets assume minato like to play with his food and doesnt outright kill itachi in close quarters, despite the fact its laughably easy for him to do so if itachi doesnt hide behind susanoo. Itachi creates an exploding bunshin, minato notices its an exploding bunshin, just like kakashi did back in part 1, and dodges with ease, just like kakashi did back in part 1. How does an exploding bunshin counter FTG? Minato can react to the raikages top speed, and have enough time to throw a kunai away from the raikage, port to another kunai, wait until the first kunai is behind the raikage, then port back to it and be in position for a lethal blow before the raikage can react, but u think an exploding bunshin of all things, is gonna be beyond minatos ability to react to and avoid?




Young Bee reacted to it. Itachi also can. 

Explosion bunshin can be used before Minato can even see or know. It is the perfect counter to FTG.

Kakashi only managed to notice it thanks to his mastered sharingan. Minato has no sharingan.



> Bunshins also take a lot of chakra, itachi has been noted to have kinda sub par reserves, he makes a bunshin, and minato dodges the explosion like he will do, then itachi has wasted a chunk of stamina against an opponent with far more stamina than him to begin with.



Itachi's bunshins doesn't use a lot of chakra. Prior and during Itachi vs Sasuke fght, Itachi used at least 4 bunshins among other MS techs. 




> Minato is gonna be outsmarted and killed? Guess you forgot that full knowledge is given to both parties. Minato is at minimum, itachis equal in intelligence and analytical ability. Minato knows Itachis kit is far more taxing than his own, and the majority of itachis kit, is low diff avoided/negated by minatos kit. You really think minato is gonna be unable to make use of this knowledge?



Any evidence that Minato is "at a minimum" is equal to Itachi in intelligence and analytical ability? 

Last time I checked, he was called stupid by Tobirama and was NEVER hyped for any analytical ability.


Itachi WAS hyped and he HAS feats. He was hyped to be able to read his opponents minds and use it during battle. Minato never was.


Add Itachi's hype to full intel and he has Minato completely figured out. Itachi is the only person in the manga who has this sort of hype in figuring out his opponents. Even when he had *limited intel *on Kabuto, he was still able to read Kabuto's heart and anticipate his movements. Let alone Itachi with FULL intel, Minato has no chance.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Countering Vision and Line of Sight is easier than countering Instant Teleportation!



 Yes, countering a God's technique is easier than countering a blondie's kunai.

 We can all fabricate people's statements, but it doesn't make it any less true.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 1, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Whats irrelevant? The fact nagatos rinnegan has zero similarities with ftg, so itachi being able to counter one, in no way means he should be able to counter the other? In addition to this, FTG is instantaneous as well, and it has the added benefit of not needing a cooldown of 5 seconds,ST doesnt enhance nagatos reaction time, nor does shared vision, it allows him to percieve threats from seperate povs than his own, but his reaction speed to them remains the same he needs to see tha he is in danger, then activate ST before it can defend him, same goes for minato and ftg, only difference is, minato is way faster than nagato, thus can register the fact he is in danger much faster than nagato can, then get himself out of said danger by porting away.



Nagato's and Minato's defenses are both instantaneous, the only difference is that Nagato has the benefit of multiple Boss-Sized Monsters further enhancing his defense while the Vision he shares between them grants him a Precognitive benefit that further enhances his own reaction time. This is excluding Asura Path and Preta Path supplementing Nagato's defense with Shinra Tensei that provides him a more complete defense than Hiraishin which not only doesn't grant him 360 degree vision and no precognition, but also doesn't grant him a defense that renders almost every attack useless like Nagato's.

Nagato's Rinnegan literally has similarities with Minato's Hiraishin except that it's more of a complete defense, equiped to handle every situation.

You're a feats person, so provide me feats of Minato having higher reaction time (not speed) than Nagato. This is the only argument you have and it doesn't refute the fact that Nagato's defense is more complete.



> This has literally nothing to do with anything in this thread, i have pointed out to you thrice now, that rinnegan=/=FTG, so and nagato =/= minato, the fact itachi countered one (with help), means jack shit against the other. But I will address this anyway, what the hell. Itachi was stated to have targeted the summons from their blind spots and attacked nagato, making that heightened perception irrelevant.



I addressed the first part of your argument. The next part is completely ridiculous because that heightened perception was available to Nagato when Itachi launched his shuriken yet he bypassed it completely and managed to exploit a * non-existent * blind-spot. This has nothing to do with attacking him after Nagato's Summons were disarmed, but prior to it.



> We are also not given a time frame from when itachi attacked with his susanoo, and when the summons were taken out, although from this panel, it looks like it all happened simultaneously,  note the panel with the chameleons eye being hit with kunai, happening the same time itachi attacks nagato with susanoo, meaning itachi didnt blitz nagato at all, but attacked yet again, from a blind spot against an opponent stated to have shit mobility. None of these factors are true for minato, making itachis performance against nagato, irrelevant against minato. Nagato and minato use completely different techniques, and have completely different styles of combat, and minato isnt crippled like nagato was.



So what you're suggesting is that Nagato had plenty of time to react to Itachi because Itachi attempted to blindside him right within Nagato's field of vision, but couldn't anyways? That's ridiculously absurd as it benefits my argument more and contradicts what you told me before-hand. What you conveyed was that Nagato lost his heightened perception prior to Itachi making his assault, but then claimed here that Itachi made his assault while Nagato still retained his field-of-vision.

Aside from that, that example is horrible because Kishimoto is depicting why Itachi could do what he did. What you're suggesting is the equivalent of Naruto amassing all of these clones and disguising them faster than Pain could even react:



Simply because it was presented to us within that instant. It's a completely illogical argument and benefits my argument even more in all honesty if Itachi's speed was capable out-blitzing Nagato's Shared Vision and Absolute Defense while simultaneously disarming Nagato's Summons.



> Ill tell you what has very little relevancy, you constantly bringing up itachi vs nagato, i honestly do not understand why you believe it matters to this thread whatsoever. Minato is much , much faster than nagato, and much more reactive, meaning he can avoid things nagato cannot, minato also doesnt start this fight with his back turned to itachi, also another big difference. Rinnegan has nothing in common with FTG, and FTG counters itachis kit due to itachi being unable to land a hit on someone who is that fast, its that simple.



  The first argument is completely baseless, but clearly, Minato fanboys advocate for lack of evidence for their arguments nowadays.



> The rinnegan doesnt add any speed or mobility, FTG is all speed and mobility, comparing the two is a waste of time, as their focus is on entirely different things. Itachi countered the rinnegans focus by outflanking it and attacking from its blindspot, Itachi cant counter FTGs focus the same way, because its *extremely difficult to outflank ftg due to the fact its so fast and unpredictable in that its user can go to any marked location they see fit*. *The user of FTG can effectively change their blind spots at will, by using instantaneous movement, making blind spot attacks nigh impossible.* Far faster opponents than itachi have tried and failed to outflank ftg. FTGs speed and mobility arent the only differences between it and the rinnegan, minatos reaction time allows him to further abuse ftgs speed against his opponents. Minato has reacted to and outpaced far faster opponents than itachi, and minato himself is far faster and more reactive than nagato.



Itachi possesses greater mental acuity than Raikage and Bee who were capable of accomplishing this feat, so again, this argument is complete garbage with no evidence. Second of all, Minato's not going to warp to another location if he can't anticipate Itachi's attacks in the first place, so this holds no weight.

  Let's look at things objectively:

* Shared Vision *: Jiraiya required the collective efforts of Ma and Pa to decipher Pain's Shared Vision. SM Naruto, even with the collective efforts of Ma, Pa, and the Boss Toads could only subdue Animal Path despite having full knowledge.

* Hiraishin *: Raikage and Bee were able to utilize a counter against Minato's Hiraishin in-spite of the fact that they lacked synergy.

What Itachi did completely outstripped what Jiraiya, Naruto, two experienced Kages, and the Boss Toads could complete in-spite of Itachi's lack of knowledge. He effectively deciphered Nagato's Rinnegan in one exchange and quickly countered his absolute defense while a few Kage level ninja could not. How is Itachi incapable of countering Hiraishin based off all of the evidence indicating that deciphering and countering Nagato's Rinnegan is significantly more difficult?

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## Veracity (Oct 1, 2016)

Itachi and Minato are pretty much in the same ballpark; or that's at least what is implied by the Author. In a battle, I think Minato would edge Itachi out with high difficulty. He simply can outlast if he wants as his aresenal consumes a lot less chakra and is completely sufficient in avoiding all of Itachi's attacks. Genjustsu can be avoided through Bunshin and knowledge. Amaterasu is dodged or warped off his body via canon. Sussano is either warped away, or simply outlasted considering it's kills Itachis chakra supply quickly. Minato also has his summoning contract to create openings here.

Reactions: Like 3


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 2, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Nagato's and Minato's defenses are both instantaneous, the only difference is that Nagato has the benefit of multiple Boss-Sized Monsters further enhancing his defense while the Vision he shares between them grants him a Precognitive benefit that further enhances his own reaction time. This is excluding Asura Path and Preta Path supplementing Nagato's defense with Shinra Tensei that provides him a more complete defense than Hiraishin which not only doesn't grant him 360 degree vision and no precognition, but also doesn't grant him a defense that renders almost every attack useless like Nagato's.
> 
> Nagato's Rinnegan literally has similarities with Minato's Hiraishin except that it's more of a complete defense, equiped to handle every situation.
> 
> ...



While id love to respond to this and go around in a circle with you once again, and have you simply ignore what im trying to tell you and then ask me to tell you again, this is getting really out of hand. Not too mention off topic, the thread is called "Itachi Vs Minato" not "FTG defense vs Rinnegan Defense" which is what we are turning it into. And while i believe its a good debate topic, this isnt the place for it.

Either way i will reply to the bold with what i would call the cliff notes of my argument and thats it.

What itachi did is a different circumstance than what jman and naruto had to deal with and had a great many differences... 

*Difference 1.* Itachi wasnt even being attacked, nagato had no clue where he was and wasnt even looking for him, itachi was completely out of sight out of mind not due to any great skill or strategy on his part, but because nagato simply had better things to do.

*Difference 2. *Itachi didnt even deal with nagato really, he dealt with kabutos understanding and kabutos application of nagatos *abilities.* Nagato was being directly controlled by kabuto, and kabuto has been shown to make stupid mistakes with his edos before, such as when he tried to use jinton with muu after he had split, because he was ignorant of the ins and outs of muus abilities, the same thing would contribute to this situation, kabuto wouldnt know the best ways for nagato to defend himself. 

*Difference 3. *In addition to kabuto not having a clue how to use the rinnegan, he also had a massive case of tunnel vision, the way for his team to win the entire war was literally in the palm of his hands, not a surprise hed not notice itachi when the 2 jins he needs are ripe for the taking.

*Difference 4. *6 lines of sight compared to 3, would be much harder to outmaneuver, add to that, the fact itachi didnt even need to do anything to be out of the lines of sight, nagato was poorly positioned and itachi started the encounter in his blind spot, hardly a genius move to take advantage of that fact.

And as i pointed out earlier, *minato doesnt start this encounter with his back turned to itachi*, he is far more reactive than nagato, far more mobile, and he also gets full knowledge on itachi, apparently thats something everyone on team itachi in this argument seems to forget,* full knowledge is given to both parties. 
*
Rinnegan being more difficult to counter than hiraishin isnt 100% true, and as i pointed out, itachi didnt counter nagatos rinnegan per say, he countered* kabuto using nagatos rinnegan*, which would be much easier. Hiraishin also just simply counters itachis kit better than rinnegan does, thats all there is to it. Ill lay it out for you...

Amaterasu=neg diffed dodged, AAAA did so, and minato>AAAA
Tsukuyomi=Never gonna happen, eye contact with arguably the fastest blitzer in the verse who favors blind spot attacks who has full knowledge on the ability...good one
Susanoo=easily outlasted and dodged, itachi has sub par stamina and cant maintain it for as long as minato could dodge its attacks, and do so with relative ease
Katons=neg diff dodged or neg diff blocked with S/T barrier
Taijutsu= a death sentence for itachi, one rasengan touches him and hes done, that or if minato gets a seal on him, he could kill itachi at his leisure
Clones=minato also has clones so these more or less cancel, clones are also costly to create in terms of stamina which is not really a great area for itachi to begin with, its also likely minato could tell the difference between the real itachi and a clone with his sensor abilities, considering *he has done so before on panel.* 




This fight, essentially boils down to one simple fact that everyone on team itachi seems to either not get, not understand, or refuse to admit. The fact was stated very eloquently by @cctr9 and the fact is, itachi, even with all his nifty powers and his intellect, *literally needs a miracle *to land a hit on minato, but on the other hand, outside of susanoo, minato can* easily *tag itachi. And even when itachi uses susanoo, he needs to keep it up constantly or he is dead, and this would also make him eventually lose the fight because he simply cant maintain susanoo long enough to put minato down with it, cuz minato can simply avoid everything itachi tries to do to him, susanoo or not.

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## Sapherosth (Oct 2, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> While id love to respond to this and go around in a circle with you once again, and have you simply ignore what im trying to tell you and then ask me to tell you again, this is getting really out of hand. Not too mention off topic, the thread is called "Itachi Vs Minato" not "FTG defense vs Rinnegan Defense" which is what we are turning it into. And while i believe its a good debate topic, this isnt the place for it.
> 
> Either way i will reply to the bold with what i would call the cliff notes of my argument and thats it.
> 
> ...





"Maybe a kagebunshin" doesn't show that he can completely tell Itachi uses clones. Itachi has already fooled far better sensors with clones. 


What you seem to not understand is that:


1. Genjutsu is not easy to avoid. Minato has *NEVER* shown the ability. Even in a fight against someone who he supposedly thought was Uchiha Madara, he looked directly into the eyes.





Secondly, Minato cannot "easily tag Itachi" because in order to do so, Minato has to get into CQC which he will be susceptible to crow clones, explosion bunshins, various genjutsu.


Even if Itachi is tagged, he can easily react to Minato's FTG from behind just like young Bee did. However, Itachi can put up a partial Susano defense while still being able to stab Minato. 



It's funny how you all seemingly ignore this fact. FTG isn't some sort of unavoidable, unconquerable technique you want it to be. It was done before. 

Itachi's genjutsu? You'll need a sharingan or to completely close your eyes for that. Fighting while looking elsewhere on the body isn't going to cut it. There's a reason why Kabuto chose to *completely* shut his eyes and not just look away like every other characters who fought against other Uchiha like Madara or Obito.

FTG doesn't counter genjutsu. Genjutsu counters FTG.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Veracity (Oct 2, 2016)

Am I mistaken or something? Why do people think Minato looking in Obito's general direction means he was looking into Obito eyes? IIRC there is no indication that he was looking directly in his eyes, nor do I think someone who is repeatedly hyped as a genius and prodigy would do so. Minato could have been looking at Obito's forehead for all we know LMAO.

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## StarWanderer (Oct 2, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Am I mistaken or something? Why do people think Minato looking in Obito's general direction means he was looking into Obito eyes? IIRC there is no indication that he was looking directly in his eyes, nor do I think someone who is repeatedly hyped as a genius and prodigy would do so. Minato could have been looking at Obito's forehead for all we know LMAO.



Yes.

Is this still going on? Seriously?

Minato is just on a higher level. Minato speedblitz him.


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## Android (Oct 2, 2016)

Somebody stop @StarWanderer .
Owning like a boss !


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 3, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Even if Itachi is tagged, he can easily react to Minato's FTG from behind just like young Bee did. However, Itachi can put up a partial Susano defense while still being able to stab Minato.


Bee never reacted to FTG, minato went behind him, and started talking before bee aimed his sword at him, minato also said he liked bee and wasnt trying to kill him. It was hardly a reaction feat to be proud of.

In this scenario, if minato FTGs behind itachi, hes not gonna say anything, hes not gonna screw around, hes gonna get behind itachji, and murder him in his sleep. Itachi is not reacting to an ftg blitz, *far faster people than him* have tried and failed,* people with the sharingan* have tried and failed, something tells me itachi aint gonna pull it off either.



Sapherosth said:


> "Maybe a kagebunshin" doesn't show that he can completely tell Itachi uses clones. Itachi has already fooled far better sensors with clones.



Minato can tell the difference between a group of 20 people standing out of sight, and 1 dude using 19 clones, meaning, he can tell the difference between a real person and a clone using his sensory abilities. Meaning he can tell the difference between a real person and a clone by the feel of their chakra. Itachis clones are not better than anyone elses clones, no clone is better than anothers clone unless they use a completely different type of clone. A KB is a KB no matter who uses it, meaning minato can pick itachis kbs out of a crowd just as easily as he did on panel with the earth guy. The only clone tech that was stated to be harder to differentiate between the user and his clone was the mokuton KB unique to hashi and mads, every other clone is equal in terms of this aspect and can be detected, and differentiated from the original by minato.

Scans of itachi fooling *literally anyone *while they used a sensory ability like minatos? Cant recall itachi ever going up against someone who actively used sensory skills on him.



Sapherosth said:


> 1. Genjutsu is not easy to avoid. Minato has *NEVER* shown the ability. Even in a fight against someone who he supposedly thought was Uchiha Madara, he looked directly into the eyes.



Genjutsu is easy to avoid, if you can teleport at will that is. Minato is also given full knowledge of itachis abilities here, i highly doubt hes gonna suggest they settle their differences via staring contest, but hey, ive been wrong before. With full knowledge on someone he knows to be a genjutsu specialist, hes not gonna spend any of his time in front of itachi, hes gona be everywhere but in front of itachi and if he ever goes in front of itachi, whos to say minato wont bunshin feint and make itachi think hes caught minato in a genjutsu, only to sucker punch itachi a second before he realises he caught a clone instead? I said this earlier, kakashi pulled off this very feint against itachi, and it took him a long while before he even noticed it was a clone, even point blank with his sharingan on it, he still didnt no it wasnt the real kakashi. Also something you are dismissing with the whole "he thought it was mads" thing, is that immediately after he said that, minato said "nope you couldnt be, hes dead lol" their "staredown" was also incredibly brief, it was slowed way down for the audience, but id wager even if minato made eye contact it was for less than a second, the whole point of their exchange was to be an instant faster than the other, meaning they were moving at some pretty high speeds.



Sapherosth said:


> Secondly, Minato cannot "easily tag Itachi" because in order to do so, Minato has to get into CQC which he will be susceptible to crow clones, explosion bunshins, various genjutsu.



Minato can easily tag itachi in CQC, CQC is the worst possible decision itachi can make in this fight and if you argue any different then... Minato cleans the ground with itachis teeth if they fight h2h, clones are detected thru sensing and dealt with accordingly, either with kunai or other distance methods, or with his clones and minato then feints itachis feint, resulting in wasted chakra for itachi that he cannot afford to waste either way. Itachi wont catch someone as fast and as smart as minato with full knowledge in a genjutsu, in addition to this, minatos fighting style itself counters genjutsu usage, as he is so fast his opponent cannot keep track of him.

CQC Dead itachi Volume 1. minato could casully throw the kunai he has been fighting itachis with just behind itachi and lvl 2 him, itachis dead before he can blink, and before his precog even registers that minato is gone, lvl 2 has been shown to be this fast on panel, obito didnt have enough time to make himself intangible because he couldnt tell wtf just happened cuz minato moved so fast.

CQC Dead itachi Volume 2. Minato preps a rasengan, and grazes itachi with it anywhere, itachi loses that body part and then some and bleeds to death.

CQC Dead itachi Volume 3. In cqc, minato rains down a load of FTG kunai like he did against AAAA and Bee, he then proceeds to port to each one randomly to confuse itachi, only to land directly in itachis blind spot and jam a kunai in his carotid artery.

CQC Dead itachi Volume 4. Minato and Itachi keep trying to punch each other in the mouth, minato simply places a seal on itachi the next time he tries to block minatos next punch,slap,grab,graze, high five, fist bump etc and then uses the seal to straight up end itachis existence whenever he feels like it.

CQC Dead itachi Volume 5. Itachi tries to use a clone feint on minato, minato sees it coming and preps his own clone, both clones splode, itachi rushes in to take advantage of the seemingly real minato getting hit by his clone, only to realise due to the fact minato can tell a real person from a clone, and itachi cant, that clone feints are a massive waste of his time. This is the last thought to pass thru itachis brain, except for the rasengan that passes through it less than a second after itachi has this thought.

CQC Dead itachi Volume 6. Itachi spends an eternity and a half trying to catch a ridiculously mobile opponent, and finally after decades of effort, he catches "Minato" in a genjutsu. "This is my moment!" says itachi, "This is where i get him back for trolling me into the dirt this whole fight!" itachi then begins the vicious 72 hour torture on "minato", only to realise "oh dang it...this aint minato" as the real minato kills him dead for picking on his clone.



Sapherosth said:


> FTG doesn't counter genjutsu. Genjutsu counters FTG.



You know, if itachi had the byakugan and could use its 360 degree xray vision to make eye contact with his opponent and use genjutsu on them, you would be correct, but, as thats not the case, and itachi needs eye contact or his genjutsu wont even activate, you are incorrect. Id love to know how in your mind you see itachi, catching up with and outflanking arguably the fastest, most reactive, and most mobile character in the verse who has full knowledge on itachi and knows eye contact is a no no. Its never gonna happen, its that simple, if itachi could KB swarm in the 100s and have each clone eat one of minatos ftg kunai id be inclined to agree with you, but he cant. If itachi could use the byakugans field of vision as his "eye contact" and cast genjutsu that way id agree with you, but he cant. If itachi was anywhere near minatos FTG in terms of speed and mobility, id agree with you, but hes not. If itachi could make himself intangible at will and wait for minato to slip up and make eye contact for les than a second and be fast enough to cast a genjutsu on him during that time, id agree with you, but itachi cant do this. If itachi, was omnipresent, id agree with you, but hes not.

Translation, genjutsu, aint gonna fly here.

Translation, itachis biggest edge, useless in this fight.

Translation, itachi could fall back on taijutsu, but hed be dead in the first exchange

Translation, itachi might live a few minutes if he keeps susanoo up the whole time but susanoo cant tag minato so hed just be camping in susanoo praying for safety

Translation, minato waits until itachi is done praying, and waits until he cant keep susanoo up anymore, and then murder blitzes itachi


Translation...

*Minato
Low
-
Mid
Diff*


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## Android (Oct 3, 2016)

People must forgot that the Sharingan or the MS precog is only limited to the LoS of the user . If the person attacks from a blind spot , the precog isn't gonna kick in , and the reactions aren't gonna be as good . Itachi with the MS isn't gonna pull of what Bee did , let alone behind his back , when the MS precog isn't a factor . He might react mentally , but he isn't reacting physically .
Not when Kabuto canonically blitzed the crap out of him .


And Kabuto's sensing enables him to detect the presence of the shadow clones by detecting their chakra signatures , knowing that there's more than one Itachi around . It doesn't make him able to tell the difference between the clones and the real one . Probably only Madara can do that , proved when he realized that the Naruto fighting Obito was a clone , the moment he got to the battlefield .

It's not like Itachi's the only one can use clones here , Minato can use clones as well , and his clones can use FTG , making them more dangerous . Minato has a better chance clone feinting Itachi than vice versa , due to Itachi's lack of any sensing abilities , and only relying on LoS , Itachi is a good clone feinter indeed , but he can still easily get clone feinted by other clone users .

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## Sapherosth (Oct 3, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Bee never reacted to FTG, minato went behind him, and started talking before bee aimed his sword at him, minato also said he liked bee and wasnt trying to kill him. It was hardly a reaction feat to be proud of.
> 
> In this scenario, if minato FTGs behind itachi, hes not gonna say anything, hes not gonna screw around, hes gonna get behind itachji, and murder him in his sleep. Itachi is not reacting to an ftg blitz, *far faster people than him* have tried and failed,* people with the sharingan* have tried and failed, something tells me itachi aint gonna pull it off either.
> 
> ...







Sigh.....So many things wrong with this that I've already addressed previously. Not going to waste my time copy & pasting my own stuff again.

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## Android (Oct 3, 2016)

The stuggle arguments being made in favor of Itachi in this thread are always entertaining to read 
Only because they are , well , struggle arguments 
I mean seriously , do the people supporting Itachi in this thread have any idea what they are talking about ? or do they even read the manga and make sure it supports anything they say before they submit reply ?
Let's make few things clear here :
1- Itachi can not / will not pull off what Killer bee did , if Minato blind sided him , and actually GOING FOR THE KILL .
2- Susanoo , Amaterasu , Genjutsu aren't catching Minato , and that's a fact Itachi supporters couldn't/can't disprove , aside from :
* Hurr Itachi always catch his opponet in Genjutsu , means he will catch Minato .
* Hurr Itachi dealt with Nagato's Rinnegan (lmao) so he must have a way to deal with Minato's FTG .
* Hurr Itachi can react to FTG because Bee did .
Nothing more than vague argument and a bad interpretation of the Manga .

3- Minato has a much bigger chance feinting Itachi than vice versa , due to Itachi's limitation with LoS .
4- explosive clones aren't doing jack to Minato , not when it failed to catch part 01 Kakashi .
5- Minato could teleport the TSB colliding with his back , and get rid of them before they could even scratch his reincarnated body , so the idea of him losng to an explosive clone , is dumb as hell .
This topic should've end up 10 posts ago , at @WorldsStrongest post .

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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 3, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Sigh.....So many things wrong with this that I've already addressed previously. Not going to waste my time copy & pasting my own stuff again.



This is hilarious to me on so many levels, as this has been my exact opinion on half of your posts addressed to me.


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 3, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> The stuggle arguments being made in favor of Itachi in this thread are always entertaining to read
> Only because they are , well , struggle arguments
> I mean seriously , do the people supporting Itachi in this thread have any idea what they are talking about ? or do they even read the manga and make sure it supports anything they say before they submit reply ?
> Let's make few things clear here :
> ...



100% agreed, and while i appreciate the mention lol, i am not sure which post u r referring too, as  exactly 10 posts prior to your post isnt even one of my posts lol.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 3, 2016)

Saying that Itachi will catch Minato in Genjutsu because he is Itachi is the Same as saying that Minato will Blitz Itachi because he is Minato!!

Neither will happen but still Minato will come on top with Mid or High Diff!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Oct 3, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> 100% agreed, and while i appreciate the mention lol, i am not sure which post u r referring too, as exactly 10 posts prior to your post isnt even one of my posts lol.


A counting error , not a big deal bro

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Oct 3, 2016)

Also about Young Bee stuff,well I don't think Bee "Reacted" to Minato,it was more like he was READY for Minato...since he probably Felt Minato touched his Tentacle and expected to be Marked and Minato to use that Opportunity or Gyuki told Bee about the touch and etc. so Bee was just expectin Minato to Port behind him and try to Blitz him so he was waiting with a Drawn Sword!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bookworm (Oct 3, 2016)

Once Minato gets within a certain distance, Itachi creates a clone behind Minato that stabs him or explodes.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Oct 3, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Also about Young Bee stuff,well I don't think Bee "Reacted" to Minato,it was more like he was READY for Minato...since he probably Felt Minato touched his Tentacle and expected to be Marked and Minato to use that Opportunity or Gyuki told Bee about the touch and etc. so Bee was just expectin Minato to Port behind him and try to Blitz him so he was waiting with a Drawn Sword!


While this could be true it's full knowledge for Itachi so it's not as if he couldn't do the same thing.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (Oct 3, 2016)

@UchihaX28 , thanks for disliking my post w/o a counter argument or something .
Class act bud

Reactions: Funny 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 3, 2016)

21 votes to 6 in minatos favor, with only 2 undecided, pretty sure we can call this now boys.

The majority also still claim minato takes it mid diff, so i think we done here.

Reactions: Like 2


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## HandfullofNaruto (Oct 3, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> 21 votes to 6 in minatos favor, with only 2 undecided, pretty sure we can call this now boys.


Feats - Minato
Portrayal - Minato
Hype - Now confirmed, Minato

Reactions: Like 2


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## Android (Oct 3, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> 21 votes to 6 in minatos favor, with only 2 undecided, pretty sure we can call this now boys.


Now it's 22 at 6 


HandfullofNaruto said:


> Hype - Now confirmed, Minato


I believe i took care of that  


cctr9 said:


> "I believe that only you [Naruto] can surpass the Fourth Hokage.
> ~ Kakashi, The Legendary Copy Ninja of the Leaf
> 
> "There was never a man that could surpass him [Fourth Hokage] "
> ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 3, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Now it's 22 at 6
> 
> *I believe i took care of that*



Id like to think i helped a tad.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Oct 3, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Id like to think i helped a tad.


Of course , young blood

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 3, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Of course , young blood

Reactions: Like 2


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## Bookworm (Oct 3, 2016)

GG Minato

Reactions: Funny 1


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 3, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> @UchihaX28 , thanks for disliking my post w/o a counter argument or something .
> Class act bud



 The amount of irony in your post just gave me cancer.

 Nonetheless, I've been busy at university, so I wasn't available to provide a counterargument. I most likely will tomorrow though, so you better prepare your ass for it.


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## Android (Oct 4, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> The amount of irony in your post just gave me cancer.


Considering you had the nerve to " like " the first post in this thread , i reaaaally think you should not be talking about irony 


UchihaX28 said:


> Nonetheless, I've been busy at university


University , right 


UchihaX28 said:


> so I wasn't available to provide a counterargument


Right 


UchihaX28 said:


> I most likely will tomorrow though, so you better prepare your ass for it.


Bring it on handsome boy

Reactions: Funny 8


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 4, 2016)

Bump...

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## Ishmael (Dec 4, 2016)

Thread was made in September 24th or 21st let it rest.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 4, 2016)

@cctr9 Is it too late for that counterargument?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 4, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> @cctr9 Is it too late for that counterargument?


He's banned.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 4, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> He's banned.



 I know. Just throwing a bit of shade.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 4, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I know. Just throwing a bit of shade.


Tbh I think he might have been permed. How long do standard bans last for?


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 4, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Tbh I think he might have been permed. How long do standard bans last for?



 No idea. Maybe a few weeks in his case.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 4, 2016)

Using itachi fans logic since Itachi defeated a sanin he
is above other sanin
So since minato defeated a mangekyou user obito defeating  obitos lapdog won't be a problem. Minato wins low difficulty

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Ayala (Dec 5, 2016)

Cctr9 is banned? Man didn't know, thought he just grew tired and leaved, as he had mentioned before.

As for this thread



Hard to tell, Itachi's main way of catching Minato is through genjutsu and that is known. Minato lacks genjutsu related feats, but in this case, with full knowledge, he will know what Itachi can do. 


Once he knew, Kakashi could fight Itachi even without looking him in the eye, i presume Minato can do the same.

Getting Itachi will be tricky though, and i can say for 99% that he isn't going down until he has finished all his chakra. Itachi's pretty good at clones, he made one while preparing to block Kakashi's hit, and he made another one in front of Kakashi and 2 other jonin looking at him. So straight up killing him is impossible imo.

If Minato were to set a kunai close to him, the moment he dissapears Itachi will know to put up Susano'o, and against Minato a simple rib cage goes fine.

The problem is fodderterasu, who jokes aside is a mess to deal with in this case. Without looking in his eyes, Minato won't be able to tell whether he's using his right or left eye, and normally won't be able to teleport in time. Only way to deal with it would be through shadow clones honestly, and knowing of Amaterasu, Minato will probably go for it.

It would come down to whoever finishes their chakra first honestly, they're both intelligent and versatile, and with full knowledge, i see it tough for either to outright overhelm the other, in this case.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 5, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> As for this thread

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ishmael (Dec 5, 2016)

Cctr9 is banned??


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 5, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> You know what I think? I think we should make a Minato vs 3T Kakashi thread, does anyone else agree?


No 3 tomoe genjutsu gg

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Rai (Dec 5, 2016)

The amount of Minato wank in the poll 

He almost loses to a 14 old year kid 

Don't compare him to Itachi


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## Ayala (Dec 5, 2016)

ℜai said:


> The amount of Minato wank in the poll
> 
> He almost loses to a 14 old year kid





Guess who just loses to that 14 yo kid..............  <------------------------ this boy


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 5, 2016)

ℜai said:


> He almost loses to a 14 old year kid


 



ℜai said:


> Don't compare him to Itachi


Who Needs his brother( sneak attack) to confront the same  obito .


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 5, 2016)

ℜai said:


> /Itachi solos



14 year or 100 year the obito uses the same kamui
Minato was burdened to finish the match faster to save his family. He did that with one kunai. Imagine more kunais and clones . Minato still clowns obito.

And the statement had no meaning. So called intelligent guy could not find the secrets in 9 years ck.
He does not know the secrets plain and simple


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## Muah (Dec 5, 2016)

Minato was kage of all uchiha no way some traitor uchiha brat beats him.


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## Rai (Dec 5, 2016)

professor83 said:


> 14 year or 100 year the obito uses the same kamui
> Minato was burdened to finish the match faster to save his family. He did that with one kunai. Imagine more kunais and clones . Minato still clowns obito.
> 
> And the statement had no meaning. So called intelligent guy could not find the secrets in 9 years ck.
> He does not know the secrets plain and simple



His family was safe and he trusted the village to the 3rd Hokage so no.

Obito was in a rush because he can only summon the Kyuubi for a short amount of time.

Adult Obito is obviously superior than his 14 y.o in every category.

14 y.o. Obito and Minato were roughly equal let alone Adult Obito.

Minato isn't clowing shit.

So the intelligent guy that wasn't able to recognize his own student ck

In a 1 vs 1 fight Itachi should be able to discover the secrets and kill him as stated.

/Itachi solos.


PD: Not gonna bother to post after this since you have nothing worthy of discussion

Reactions: Like 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 5, 2016)

ℜai said:


> Adult Obito is obviously superior than his 14 y.o in every category.


Not in terms of kamui use, they use the same damn technique after all


ℜai said:


> Minato isn't clowing shit.


Unless you can prove obitos reactions have improved far above the level they were at when minato lolbitzed him, minato still clowns with FTG, it counters kamui pretty well.



ℜai said:


> So the intelligent guy that wasn't able to recognize his own student


1. Who minato believed to be dead for years
2. Who was chunin level *at best* when he died, yet the masked man was shit diffing kage level barriers and elite anbu and was capable  of breaking the kyuubis seal and controlling the kyuubi ffs
3. Who was wearing a mask and disguising his voice
4. When there were literally hundreds of other uchiha around at the time as this was pre massacre.



ℜai said:


> In a 1 vs 1 fight Itachi should be able to discover the secrets and kill him as stated.


Itachi can have full freaking knowledge of kamui before the fight even starts, doesnt mean shit, he isnt fast enough to tag obito before he makes himself intangible like minato did when he used lvl 2, itachi cannot constantly attack obito to use up kamuis timer like konan (with prep) did, and he has no way to escape a kamui warp *when, not if,* obito eventually tags him, so itachi gets shit diffed.



ℜai said:


> /Itachi solos.


Evidently not



ℜai said:


> Not gonna bother to post after this since you have nothing worthy of discussion


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 5, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> He's banned


He gets banned quite often, or is that just my imagination? What does he even get banned for?


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## baski (Dec 5, 2016)

Didn't read the entire thread so forgive me if i'm repeating anything. 
I see it as more of a 51-49 thing in Minato's favour. The one thing i see that gives Minato the edge is his free movement around the battlefield, which has to be setup by Minato beforehand, and since OP didn't say anything about whether the battlefield has been marked already, i'm assuming he'd have to do it at the beginning of the battle. With full knowledge, i don't see why Itachi can't prevent Minato from placing kunai where he wants. Fortunately for him he's got the ideal skill to do so in shurikenjutsu. He can easily deflect every single kunai thrown, or at least deflect enough that he could keep track of the ones that do land so he won't be blindsided, or even deflect them to land where he wants so he can setup traps for Minato if he should try and teleport to them.
That being said i don't expect this to be easy for Itachi, as Minato could still adapt in-battle and find a way to port behind Itachi, but i see his victory ultimately coming down to stamina.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 5, 2016)

Ok, let me end this in a dominant fashion.

Kurama Chakra Mode Naruto kept up with Itachi in taijutsu. They were basicly equal.

Sage Mode Naruto is physicaly faster (Shunshin aside) than KCM, because Third Raikage easily dodged KCM Naruto's attack, yet was effortlessly counter-attacked by SM Naruto.

The same SM Naruto, War Arc SM Naruto, found 50% Kurama's attack "so fast!" and couldnt dodge/block/protect himself from it.

When Kurama attacked Kushina with his hand (the same way 50% Kurama attacked War Arc SM Naruto), when his hand was almost at point blank range...

Minato teleported to Kushina, took her with his hands and shunshinned away at 50+ meters distance.

Itachi has never used Yata Mirror with Susanoo ribcage, or with V2 Susanoo.

Itachi cant use V3 Susanoo quickly enough.

Minato Shunshins to him, teleports his ribcage, or V2 Susanoo away and speedblitz him.

Amaterasu wont do shit, after 5 meters distance, it's speed is the same as FRS.

In 5 meters distance, it can be sensed and avoided. As if Itachi will be able to move his head or eyes in the right direction.

Minato sh*ts on Itachi. This is a sh*tblitz.

Surprise, surprise motherf**kers i'm BACK! 

The Battledome GOD! 

You'll do none!

Reactions: Like 2


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## Sapherosth (Dec 5, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Not in terms of kamui use, they use the same damn technique after all
> 
> Unless you can prove obitos reactions have improved far above the level they were at when minato lolbitzed him, minato still clowns with FTG, it counters kamui pretty well.
> 
> ...





Spare me this BS.

Minato isn't some untouchable god that you make him out to be.


Sasuke activated Susano FASTER than Minato's fastest hand-movement speed that he uses to land his Rasengan.





Now, we have Itachi activating Susano FASTER than Sasuke






And Minato's hand-movement speed managed to be faster than a young Obito's Kamui phase.







Logically, Itachi and Sasuke is more than capable of activating a Susano arm and crush Obito, since they can do it faster than Minato's hand/arm movement speed.




Just let that sink in.......Susano Arm grab > Minato's arm speed which was used to land the Rasengan behind Obito's back.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ayala (Dec 5, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Spare me this BS.
> 
> Minato isn't some untouchable god that you make him out to be.
> 
> ...



I don't wanna get in this discussion, but that panel lacks credibility considering that Sasuke not only activated Susano'o, but also moved on feet and extended his own arm in that same panel. Sasuke can't realistically move on feet and extend his arm before Minato managed to slightly move his own.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## StarWanderer (Dec 5, 2016)

Sasuke could activate his Susanoo after Tobirama touched Gudoudama and after Minato got shocked by Tobirama's performance. Seriouslly, that proves nothing.

Minato grabbed Kushina before Kurama could crush her, and that's when the hand was almost at point blank range. 

Kurama's attacks were super-fast even for War Arc SM Naruto, who's speed > KCM Naruto's speed.

Seriously.

Minato's physical speed >>>> physical speed of any Sage, except RCM Naruto, SM Madara and SM Hashirama.

Add there Shunshin speed that is faster than V2 Ei's Shunshin speed.

And there you go. Minato Shunshins to Itachi, teleports his Susanoo away with Hiraishin and speedblitz him. Minato is simply on another level. 

Waiting for someone disagreeing that Minato's Shunshin > 4th Ei's Shunshin.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 5, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Minato isn't some untouchable god that you make him out to be.


Youre right, minato isnt an untouchable god...

But relative to itachi he is...


Sapherosth said:


> Sasuke activated Susano FASTER than Minato's fastest hand-movement speed that he uses to land his Rasengan.


This scan is inconsistent as all hell, dont know what else to tell you. 

Proof enough of this fact lies no further than the following page, where tobirama shows up out of nowhere and outspeeds both sasukes susanoo and KCM minatos speed, the latter of which he has admitted blatant inferiority to in terms of minatos base speed, and admitted inferiority in terms of FTG as well.

Yet he effectively blitzes the trio to save them, proven by their "!!" on the top left panel.

So what these scans tell us, at least if we follow your logic...

Minatos KCM speed<Sasukes susanoo speed<Tobis Speed<Minatos Base Speed ???

See why that doesnt make sense?

That whole exchange is a mess.



Sapherosth said:


> Sasuke activated Susano FASTER than Minato's fastest hand-movement speed that he uses to land his Rasengan.


As i pointed out, that scan is inconsistent as all hell. If we weigh what is established there, with what has already been established...
*Lolwut Moment #1.* We have KCM naruto, who is entire tiers faster than EMS sasuke, needing to be bailed out by the latter from an attack

*Lolwut Moment #2. *We have KCM minato, who is faster than KCM naruto, being outsped by EMS sasuke, wo is even slower than KCM naruto

*Lolwut Moment #3. *We have Tobi-freaking-rama, who is slower than base minato and worse with FTG, outspeeding KCM naruto, EMS sasuke, and KCM minato

So yeah, just plain nasty.



Sapherosth said:


> Now, we have Itachi activating Susano FASTER than Sasuke


Great, lets all take things completely out of context to try to prove our claims, this will end well for sure. 

You make 2 incorrect assertions here.

1. You claim that MS itachi has better reactions than EMS sasuke, whic is incorect, sasuke has straight tomoe, and a superior level of sharingan to begin with, by definition his reaction time is better. Sasuke also likely outright chose not to activate susanoo there, as kabuto blatantly tells us he wast aiming for sasuke whatsoever which sasuke likely realized with his superior reaction time, so yeah, context is important. 

2. You claim that Kabuto fight Sasuke=Juubito fight sasuke, when we are shown thats clearly not the case, a distinction is clearly made between the two.



Sapherosth said:


> And Minato's hand-movement speed managed to be faster than a young Obito's Kamui phase.


Minatos hand movement supported by FTG blitzing, which is entire tiers faster than anything itachi has.



Sapherosth said:


> Logically, Itachi and Sasuke is more than capable of activating a Susano arm and crush Obito, since they can do it faster than Minato's hand/arm movement speed.


Based on the most inconsistent and downright messy manga scan of all time you mean?



Sapherosth said:


> Just let that sink in.......Susano Arm grab > Minato's arm speed which was used to land the Rasengan behind Obito's back.


Again, it was minatos base speed augmented by FTG blitz that allowed him to hit obito, which is faster than anything itachi could ever dream of.



Sapherosth said:


> Spare me this BS.


Pretty sure this is my line.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 5, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> I don't wanna get in this discussion, but that panel lacks credibility considering that Sasuke not only activated Susano'o, but also moved on feet and extended his own arm in that same panel. Sasuke can't realistically move on feet and extend his arm before Minato managed to slightly move his own.


Its a pickle, no doubt about it


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## JiraiyaFlash (Dec 5, 2016)

I didnt read all posts. But ı talk about what ı saw for now ;

Why people try to create a feat for Itachi from other superior Uchihas like EMS Sasuke and Obito ?! What kind of think is this ?

This kinda try say something like; "Minato is the pupil of Jiraiya and the master of Kakashi then he must know at least %30 of their arsenal and thats mean Minato can use Raikiri and Doton Yomi NUma !!!" This is ridicilous.

Obito and EMS Sasuke are pretty superior (for both Minato and ITachi) than Itachi.

Sasuke's susano feats, obito's track abilities shouldn't became feats for Itachi too.

And ı want to give some advice;

If you want to defend Itachi, ıf you saw him as superior.. Then tell to people how superior Itachi are, dont try to demean Minato for canonise Itachi..

And same for Minato too . Just try to tell your case about how/why is minato or ıtachi is gonna take that battle.

___________________________

Whatever; about battle.

Portrayal wise -> Minato
Feat & Ability wise -> Both have pretty damn feats about their abilities.
Dominancy -> Minato

prognosis of this battle (IMO):

If you want to capture or kill Minato and also if you're not clearly way above from his class.. Then you only have 2 option,
1st; You're gonna impressed him with your extensive arsenal. And throw all you got and finally put him down.

Or (2nd)  you're gonna play at defense and constantly try to avoid him and wait for a gap that chance to make an execution.

1st doesnt fit to Itachi cuz he has chakra / stamina issues. He cant throw 8 amaterasu 12 katon goukkyaku , etc ,etc. He doesnt has that kinda arsenal and also doesnt has that much stamina for overcome Minato.

And for 2nd option Sick Itachi run from Minato or avoid Minato at the starts of the battles.. So he must finish this in 10 minutes tops.

Amaterasu isnt gonna hit him, Tsukuyomi is kinda nullified with summon asistance. Shurikenjutsu is kinda worst option against a man like Minato.

So you need your Susano'o and Totsuga Blade to finish this job permanently.

But sadly Minato isnt just fast he is also pretty damn sensor + he can get in to SM for couple minutes + he has giant summons to clash with Susano + He is kinda damn smart. .. So all susano movements are gonna detect by Minato easily due to his feats.

So even 2nd option is not guarantee for Itachi.

Izanagi suprise might be a last resort but Minato was even able to detect Obito , so Itachi's any charge from behind is gonna nullified thanks to Minato's sensor abilities or SM. And its cost to Itachi's eye. Izanami wont work on a humble guy like Minato.

So like ı said, Itachi needs to finish this quicky at the starts of the battle 10-15 minutes tops. If Minato fall on error maybe Itachi can execute him with Amaterasu (ıf he doesnt have Fuka Fujin, actually ı think he might has that).

---------------------------

So What Minato can do against Itachi ?

According to OP they have full knowledge. Thats why Itachi is gonna use Clone Feints or Susano from the start. Cuz otherwise he is gonna tagged by Minato (he even tagged Tobi). So when Susano'o opened Minato doesnt have so many options, he is gonna summoning Big Three as back up. And they're gonna stall Susano'o for a while. And ı dont think that Susano is gonna be there for so long !. All Minato need is playing his role as escaper (which is kinda his superiority) until Itachi is done with his susano.

Then after from 10-15 minutes. everything gonna turn to Minato's favor. Even without outlasting option Minato still can teleport Susano'o. We're all know that non-legged Susano'o are not attached to their user. They're just covering their users. So when Minato is gonna teleport his Susano'o, Itachi needs to opening a new one.. And thats bad for his Stamina.


even so ıf Minato only fast on his feet maybe Itachi can deal with that or even so if Minato only fast with teleportaiton then Itachi also might be able to deal with that too. But this guy has both kind of speed. Also has superior sensor abilities, also have great summon arsenal and also has senjutsu card. So this resume (or recipe) is kinda pretty tough for Itachi.

I saw Itachi at this battle like

He cant race with Minato
He cant sucker punched him (due to speed, sensory and knowledge)
He cant outlast him
He cant overcome to him with great / giant arsenal
He hasnt any kinda S/T Techniques.
He cant oversmart him

So as usualy; Minato is so tricky and also a mismatch for Itachi ( just like so many others)

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 5, 2016)

professor83 said:


> Using itachi fans logic since Itachi defeated a sanin he
> is above other sanin
> So since minato defeated a mangekyou user obito defeating  obitos lapdog won't be a problem. Minato wins low difficulty


"Lapdog". Yeah right.





Gotta edit this before people jump all over me. I'm not saying Itachi > Tobi, I'm saying he's not his "lapdog" like you made him out to be.

Judging from the above panels, you can use logical reasoning to deduce that he was respected and somewhat feared by him.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 5, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Proof enough of this fact lies no further than the following page, where tobirama shows up out of nowhere and outspeeds both sasukes susanoo and KCM minatos speed, the latter of which he has admitted blatant inferiority to in terms of minatos base speed, and admitted inferiority in terms of FTG as well.
> 
> Yet he effectively blitzes the trio to save them, proven by their "!!" on the top left panel.
> 
> ...



Dafuq are you talking about?   It's practically confirmed that Sasuke's Susano speed > Minato hand speed. As soon as something disproves your Minato speed hype, you're quick to call it BS.





> As i pointed out, that scan is inconsistent as all hell. If we weigh what is established there, with what has already been established...
> *Lolwut Moment #1.* We have KCM naruto, who is entire tiers faster than EMS sasuke, needing to be bailed out by the latter from an attack
> 
> *Lolwut Moment #2. *We have KCM minato, who is faster than KCM naruto, being outsped by EMS sasuke, wo is even slower than KCM naruto
> ...



It's not inconsistent. You're the one who's over thinking this. It just shows that Minato isn't THAT fast to begin with in his normal speed.






> Great, lets all take things completely out of context to try to prove our claims, this will end well for sure.
> 
> You make 2 incorrect assertions here.
> 
> ...




1. That's BS. We saw those 2 attacked by the SAME technique, while 1 reacted the other did not. Not sure why you're trying to say Sasuke didn't activate Susano because he "knew" he wouldn't be hit. What about all the OTHER instances where he activates Susano immediately?     The so called Straight Tomoe doesn't mean much if Itachi's base reflexes are superior to begin with, just like one would consider Minato to have superior reflexes than an ordinary Uchiha despite that Uchiha having superior eyes.


2. What's the difference between EARLY Juubito fight Sasuke and Kabuto fight Sasuke exactly?    Funny how you try to play it as if it's the end of Juubito fight where we can clearly see the difference. Last I checked, early Juubito fight Sasuke wasn't involved in any major battle that warrants an upgrade.




> Minatos hand movement supported by FTG blitzing, which is entire tiers faster than anything itachi has.



Minato would still need to move his hand......FTG is just the first part. The second part is actually MOVING his hand towards his opponent.



> Based on the most inconsistent and downright messy manga scan of all time you mean?



So now it's inconsistent when it doesn't suit you.



> Again, it was minatos base speed augmented by FTG blitz that allowed him to hit obito, which is faster than anything itachi could ever dream of.



FTG doesn't increase his hand speed. Hell, KCM Minato hand speed should be > Base Minato hand speed.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 5, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Sasuke could activate his Susanoo after Tobirama touched Gudoudama and after Minato got shocked by Tobirama's performance. Seriouslly, that proves nothing.




Dafuq are you talking about?

The panel of Sasuke activating a full Susano hand happened before the Tobirama grab. Are you sure you've been reading this manga correctly?


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 5, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Dafuq are you talking about? It's practically confirmed that Sasuke's Susano speed > Minato hand speed. As soon as something disproves your Minato speed hype, you're quick to call it BS.


Way to address literally nothing in that quote...


Sapherosth said:


> It's not inconsistent.


It is if you read what you quoted from me...



Sapherosth said:


> You're the one who's over thinking this.


Not really, im just applying what we already knew to be true with the mess that scan provided us with.



Sapherosth said:


> It just shows that Minato isn't THAT fast to begin with in his normal speed.


The yellow flash isnt fast...uh huh.... yeah not getting that



Sapherosth said:


> The so called Straight Tomoe doesn't mean much if Itachi's base reflexes are superior to begin with,


Baseless, show me scans of base itachi having better reflexes than base sasuke, ill wait.



Sapherosth said:


> just like one would consider Minato to have superior reflexes than an ordinary Uchiha despite that Uchiha having superior eyes.


Minato is known for his insane reactions, his reactions have time and agin been superior to precog, no uchiha has that level of reaction time even with freaking precog, let alone without sharingan at all, uchihas are not known for their reaction time, well, not outside the sharingan, but go ahead, prove me wrong.



Sapherosth said:


> Minato would still need to move his hand......FTG is just the first part.


FTG still augments his speed and placed him somewhere obito couldnt react from, itachi cant do that...



Sapherosth said:


> So now it's inconsistent when it doesn't suit you.


Okay, since you clearly didnt read my post whatsoever, ill lay it all out for you once again. 

1. Tobirama arrived eons after base minato at the battlefield, minato had the time to block the juubis attack and set up his FTG markers before anyone knew wtf happened, and have a casual convo with his son before the other kage arrived, thats a speed feat for minato that puts his base speed above tobiramas, which tobi outright tells us.

2. Tobirama praises minatos base striking speed, meaning minato has equal if not greater striking speed than tobirama in his base state.

3. KCM minato is faster than base minato, obvious.


4. KCM naruto is faster than EMS sasuke, but naruto is also logically slower than KCM minato, as base minato>base naruto, and they both use the same KCM amp, yet he still needed to be bailed out by sasuke by this attack, sasuke outsped 2 people who were both faster than he was. See the inconsistency yet?

5. Tobirama saves the trio by dealing with an attack they were all apparently too slow to avoid, making the speed hierarchy...

EMS Sasuke<KCM Naruto<KCM Minato< EMS sasuke (somehow not inconsistent to you yet)<Tobirama<Base minato (still make sense?)<KCM minato

You really gonna sit there and say that all makes sense to you? Really fam? Smells like intellectual dishonesty to me, or willful ignorance at least.


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## Veracity (Dec 5, 2016)

Tobirama claiming Base Minato's striking speed is fast doesn't make it faster or even equal to his own. I don't even understand how some posters could possibly infer that...

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 5, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> I don't wanna get in this discussion, but that panel lacks credibility considering that Sasuke not only activated Susano'o, but also moved on feet and extended his own arm in that same panel. Sasuke can't realistically move on feet and extend his arm before Minato managed to slightly move his own.



 Why not?


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 5, 2016)

Veracity said:


> Tobirama claiming Base Minato's striking speed is fast doesn't make it faster or even equal to his own. I don't even understand how some posters could possibly infer that...


Why would you possible be impressed with something that isnt at least comparable to something you can replicate? Thats how praise works, otherwise its just condescending, which was clearly not what tobi was trying to do.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 5, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Why would you possible be impressed with something that isnt at least comparable to something you can replicate? Thats how praise works, otherwise its just condescending, which was clearly not what tobi was trying to do.



 Well, KCM Minato praised Tobirama for his reaction speed, so you better put some respek on Tobirama's name.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 5, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Well, KCM Minato praised Tobirama for his reaction speed, so you better put some respek on Tobirama's name.


I respect tobi, hes second fiddle to minato in speed, as tobi himself stated, no small feat, so thats exactly where i put him.


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## Veracity (Dec 5, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Why would you possible be impressed with something that isnt at least comparable to something you can replicate? Thats how praise works, otherwise its just condescending, which was clearly not what tobi was trying to do.



That is not how praise works. You can give praise to someone who is inferior to you and it's happened a number of times in the manga. KCM Minato praising Tobirama being the most fitting example. Tobirama praising multiple individuals in his short time frame of showings simple infers that he gives praise where it's due.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 5, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I respect tobi, hes second fiddle to minato in speed, as tobi himself stated, no small feat, so thats exactly where i put him.



 Second to KCM Minato or Base Minato? If it's the latter, then that's very ironic.


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## Ayala (Dec 6, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Why not?



You're telling me Kcm Minato can't move a hand before Sasuke can move on feet and casually move his own arm to a defending position? This doesn't seem right to me, it's the case of the inbetween panels, where crazy shit happens all the time, such as interceptions from going from nowhere in sight to right in front of the attack that was one inch from landing.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 6, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> You're telling me Kcm Minato can't move a hand before Sasuke can move on feet and casually move his own arm to a defending position? This doesn't seem right to me, it's the case of the inbetween panels, where crazy shit happens all the time, such as interceptions from going from nowhere in sight to right in front of the attack that was one inch from launding.



 I wasn't saying that, I was simply questioning how EMS Sasuke displaying reaction speed that exceeds KCM Minato's wouldn't be a feasible thing for him to do given that he possesses the most divined eyes honed for god-like reactions.


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## Ayala (Dec 6, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I wasn't saying that, I was simply questioning how EMS Sasuke displaying reaction speed that exceeds KCM Minato's wouldn't be a feasible thing for him to do given that he possesses the most divined eyes honed for god-like reactions.



Ah about that, i don't know for sure.

The Gudodama was noticed by all three of them, it just popped in front of them. The Sharingan only works by reading the movements, but in this case, i don't see what possible advantage it could have given to Sasuke. Minato tried to get it as soon as he saw it, and Sasuke moved to the safe as soon as he saw it: same time for both. 

Yet one casually completed two different movements while the other who should be faster couldn't complete one. 

My original point is that the panel for me doesn't show that Sasuke's Susano'o movements are faster than Minato's handspeed, and the same for Itachi's. This doesn't hold true, Susano'o was never shown to be that fast. The activation i can agree, but its movement speed surpassing Kcm Minato's, that seems too much. 

This is the speed it moves at: 



Itachi and Sasuke can manifest the Susano'o faster than Minato can move i believe, but that Susano'o doesn't move faster than Minato


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## JiraiyaFlash (Dec 6, 2016)

Veracity said:


> Tobirama claiming Base Minato's striking speed is fast doesn't make it faster or even equal to his own


Only that quote  doesnt mean anything like you said my friend. But earlier on Tobirama said; "Your shunshin is better than mine"... And after some pages he said that "Your also fast at striking too"

That word of "too" creates some pattern about Tobirama's vision about Minato's overall speed... So ıf you take both quotes for evaluation, many people can comfortably infer that. And yeah thats mean at least he is equal to him.. dont be that harsh on Minato   

_________________

And ı saw people whom are pretty insistent about using EMS Sasuke feats for Itachi  EMS -> Susano usage >> MS -> Susano usage..... It doesnt paralyzed an EMS user but it would for a MS user.. Thats simple. 

And Edo-Itachi feats are belongs to Edo-Itachi this is Alive Regular Itachi ?!

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## Sapherosth (Dec 6, 2016)

It just goes to show that Minato wasn't as fast as everyone makes him out to be. At the very least, it's not the speed that no one outside God-tiers can perceive and follow.


Over all, speed is an overrated concept.


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## Veracity (Dec 6, 2016)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Only that quote  doesnt mean anything like you said my friend. But earlier on Tobirama said; "Your shunshin is better than mine"... And after some pages he said that "Your also fast at striking too"
> 
> That word of "too" creates some pattern about Tobirama's vision about Minato's overall speed... So ıf you take both quotes for evaluation, many people can comfortably infer that. And yeah thats mean at least he is equal to him.. dont be that harsh on Minato
> 
> ...



He actually said " your teleportation is better than mine." Which has been a famously debated statement on whether or not he meant his footspeed or his ability to utilize FTG Barrier and prepped FTG Kunai. You could accept both as concrete facts and still have zero proof to back up the claim of Minato having superior handspeed or reactions. Minato having a faster flicker or better utilization of FTG doesn't account for his handspeed or reactions. Via actual feats, Tobirama has blatantly better handspeed and reactions to Base Minato; and one can't use the cop out argument that Minato is suppose to be faster because that isn't in direct correlation to his handspeed.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## JiraiyaFlash (Dec 6, 2016)

@Veracity

Shunshin no Jutsu (Body Flicker Technique)

By using the Body Flicker Technique, a ninja can move short to long distances at an almost untraceable speed. To an observer, it appears as if the user has teleported. It is accomplished by using chakra to temporarily vitalise the body and move at extreme speeds. The amount of chakra required depends on the overall distance and elevation between the user and the intended destination.

Sadly thanks to worst editors or translators they use the word of "teleportation" for both Hirashin and Shunshin..

But Shunshin its mean speed on feet. And like databook and wikia says, its able to move at untraceable speeds.

I read naruto both english and turkish... And thanks to my editor & translator friends they're never gonna translate the names of the techniques.. They're just put  original japaneses terms and names that created by author's himself..

So thats why ım so sure about Shunshin =/= Teleportation... This only used for Shishui (which happened pre-war arc, shunshin aint something new for Narutoverse).

4 Hokages runs to battlefield.. And Minato was the first person come to battlefield.. And Tobirama said; "Your shunshin is better than mine"

Then he said "You're also fast at striking too".... So we have a clear pattern... Hirashin isnt something you can be more fast or agile.. Its pure teleportation not physical... Maybe trigger process could be changed.. But Both Tobirama and Minato is good at that.

So , NO !

Tobirama didnt talk about "Teleportation / Hirashin" , he said "Shunshin / Body Flicker" .



Veracity said:


> Tobirama claiming Base Minato's striking speed is fast doesn't make it faster or even equal to his own


You said this dude.. This isnt about "Reaction Efficiency".. You simply said "that quote doesnt proof anything, he also might be not equal too"

And ı said" No, due to Tobirama's manifestations about Minato is creates some pattern about how fast/quick/handy Minato is"

And you now you say to me; "He was talk about Teleportation.. And You dont have any proof about Minato's Reaction > Tobirama's reaction "

!??!??! I even aint claim that man .. Plus due to portrayal, due to phrases and lead/hint feats (not main) are good enough assume that , cuz they're too similar and Tobirama give his approval ?! ..

This is pretty off - topic.  Sorry for that folks.. And thanks for the debate my friiend
_________________________________________________

And Im saying again, Feats of EMS Sasuke, Edo-Itachi, Obito, Tobirama or any other aint gonna save Itachi from this situation.. Please analyze Minato and analyze Itachi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Veracity (Dec 6, 2016)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> @Veracity
> 
> Shunshin no Jutsu (Body Flicker Technique)
> 
> ...




I'm aware of the fact that teleportation and shunshin have been used interchangeably at times. That doesn't change the fact that many posters have argued against both sides. Many have said that Tobirama saying your "teleportation is better" as opposed to your" teleportation is faster" means he was referring to FTG and other posters have said that Minato arriving to the battlefield was a combination between him warping to thrown Kunai and the fact that the Kage weren't using close to their full speed; evidenced by the fact that they arrived at the same time.

Maybe I misconstrued what you were intending to quote me for. My only point is that Tobirama saying that Base Minato is quick at striking doesn't even mean they are in the same ballpark, because many characters have praised other characters despite being absolutely superior. Looking at direct feats, Tobirama is simply Base Minato's superior in terms of handspeed and reflexes. Minato may have the advantage in flicker( depends on how you interpret that scan) and has better utilization of FTG( Barrier and prepped Kunai), but that isn't handspeed or reactions. And one can't refer to portrayal or hype, because they only encompass his flicker speed and FTG utilization.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Android (Dec 7, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> @cctr9 Is it too late for that counterargument?


This is gonna end up in a way :
- Me destroying your argumentation and washing away your garbage logic .
- You ignoring all the evidence , feats , portrayal ...etc etc wasting both r time and killing my brain cells .
Ahhh , who are we kidding here ? you have no argument to stand on , and since you usually talk about Minato like he raped a girl you love or something .
Sooooo , let's see which is which , what'ya got ?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2 | Creative 1


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## StarWanderer (Dec 8, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Dafuq are you talking about?
> 
> The panel of Sasuke activating a full Susano hand happened before the Tobirama grab. Are you sure you've been reading this manga correctly?



It seems somebody doesnt read the manga very well.

Anyway, that sh*t you've posted doesnt prove anything.

Nobody in the manga has ever shown faster, or equal Shunshin speed to that of Minato, except for BM Naruto and higher-tier god speedsters, such as Juubito, Kaguya etc.

Nobody. The fact he dominates Itachi without much of a difficulty became obvious after he saved Kushina from someone, who can hit so fast even War Arc SM Naruto cant physically react.

Minato Shunshins to him, teleports his Susanoo away (and that's if he manages to make at least Ribcage) with his Hiraishin and speedblitz the f*ck out of him.

The end. He is simply too fast and to hax for any Uchiha. Except for Madara Uchiha and prime Sasuke Uchiha, of course.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 8, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> It seems somebody doesnt read the manga very well.
> 
> Anyway, that sh*t you've posted doesnt prove anything.
> 
> ...




That's a good joke considering a teenage Obito was holding his own quite well, and the only reason he lost was because he was rushing. Minato even acknowledged this. 

Show me a panel of Minato blitzing someone without using FTG. I'd like to see that. Bee "shunshin" across the mountain, yet Itachi was keeping up with him easily in CQC and got behind him. Minato also used FTG to get behind a young killer Bee, and Bee reacted to that as well. 

You over wank FTG and speed.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 8, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> It seems somebody doesnt read the manga very well.
> 
> Anyway, that sh*t you've posted doesnt prove anything.
> 
> ...



@bold

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 8, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> @bold


Did he  show  any notable  shunshin feats?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dr. White (Dec 8, 2016)

They kill eachother. /thread


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 8, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> @bold


Shisui is featless, and its baseless to claim his shunshin would be faster than minatos as a result of that fact.

Minatos speed was legit legendary, shisuis was hyped yes, but nowhere near the level of a true speedster like minato.



professor83 said:


> Did he  show  any notable  shunshin feats?


Nope.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (Dec 8, 2016)

professor83 said:


> Did he show any notable shunshin feats?


Nope , he's just talking nonsense

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Serene Grace (Dec 8, 2016)

Didn't The Fourth Raikage admit Minato to be faster than him, didn't the databook also say they had multiple encounters too? Saying Minato was only using FTG while fighting him is just ridiculous imo, as I highly doubt AAAA is that stupid not to realize that Minato is using the kunai to teleport instead of his actual speed.


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## Android (Dec 8, 2016)

If Minato is only fast because of FTG , then this means that he is actually the fastest guy in the manga because FTG is instant . That's really dumb .
Minato could shunshin across Konoha in 2 seconds , Shunshin around the Juubi which is the size of the island turtle in few seconds , and shunshin a long distance to save Kushina from a point blank Kyuubi paw , the same Kyuubi on half it's power is too fast for war arc SM Naruto .

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Dr. White (Dec 8, 2016)

Shisui's shunshin was obviously more famous hence his moniker of teleporter. Minato was famous for his FTG speed which was shown during the war (the yellow flash). Minato is also very fast but nothing to suggest he has the best shushin outside of Ei. The "shushin" feat also was never confirmed, it could have been Shuhsin + FTG, could have been FCD and FTG to summon on top of Gamabunta if he had a tag there, etc. At best it puts him at casual base bee speed.


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## Dr. White (Dec 8, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Didn't The Fourth Raikage admit Minato to be faster than him, didn't the databook also say they had multiple encounters too? Saying Minato was only using FTG while fighting him is just ridiculous imo, as I highly doubt AAAA is that stupid not to realize that Minato is using the kunai to teleport instead of his actual speed.


Except when we saw there one explicit encounter, Minato legitimately abused his FTG...He would have had his face punched through without it and even still suffered a small bruise. And Bee as a semi competent strategist countered him after peeping it once and even figured out the tag dynamic (which Minato hadn't revealed yet). So what proof do you have to suggest that he could tango with V2 Ei in speed outside of Hirashin?


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## Serene Grace (Dec 8, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Except when we saw there one explicit encounter, Minato legitimately abused his FTG...He would have had his face punched through without it and even still suffered a small bruise.


Yet AAAA's statement and the databook completely contradict what you're trying to say. That's my proof and what I'm standing on. Unless someone skillfull and strong enough to hold the title of kage for his village, is too stupid to realize someone is using a kunai to teleport instead of his own speed.



Dr. White said:


> And Bee as a semi competent strategist countered him after peeping it once and even figured out the tag dynamic (which Minato hadn't revealed yet).


Lmao. Minato said something prior to hitting Bee, I don't get how he countered it if Minato was talking behind his back, Bee could have simply heard what Minato said and reacted on pure instinct. If Minato had said nothing, bee would be dead I even thought this was made obvious when Bee looked surprised when he heard Minato's voice, indicating that he wasn't expecting that to happen or he wasn't ready.



Dr. White said:


> So what proof do you have to suggest that he could tango with V2 Ei in speed outside of Hirashin?


Read above.


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## Android (Dec 8, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Shisui's shunshin was obviously more famous hence his moniker of teleporter.


The 7 swordmen of the mist were far more famous with swrods than Sasuke or Killer Bee .
But in a sword fight , they'll get raped against them .


Dr. White said:


> Minato is also very fast but nothing to suggest he has the best shushin outside of Ei


No one has better feats than Minato , outside of top tires of course .


Dr. White said:


> The "shushin" feat also was never confirmed, it could have been Shuhsin + FTG, could have been FCD and FTG to summon on top of Gamabunta if he had a tag there, etc. At best it puts him at casual base bee speed.


It is confirmed , everything you said here is baseless and backed up ny zero evidence , if he used FTG there would be a sfx or something to clear that up , but there was non .
His other feats are more even better than that .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 8, 2016)

@emanthespriggan1234 

 Actually, Databook and Raikage confirmed that it was Hiraishin that out-maneuvered Ei, not Shunshin. Not sure where you came to that conclusion in the first place.


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## Dr. White (Dec 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> The 7 swordmen of the mist were far more famous with swrods than Sasuke or Killer Bee .
> But in a sword fight , they'll get raped against them .
> 
> No one has better feats than Minato , outside of top tires of course .
> ...


Swordsmanship is a very diverse field in application and a very broad scope of things are entailed. Shunshin is 1 explicit move. Minato and Shisui are also of the same age. Yet Shisui was hailed as the expert in shushin and Minato's speed hype came after he learned FTG and soloed a war with it. It stands the reason Shisui being given a moniker doing with his shunshin meant he was the beens knees with it. 

No, I already explained Minato is very fast but not the fastest when talking about physical movement speed. He is give or take Bee level. Which still puts him in the range of people like Base Gai, V1 Ei, Itachi, and the like. 

You;re argument is literally "Nope, Minato is the best, you are wrong and I am right."


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## Dr. White (Dec 8, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Yet AAAA's statement and the databook completely contradict what you're trying to say. That's my proof and what I'm standing on. Unless someone skillfull and strong enough to hold the title of kage for his village, is too stupid to realize someone is using a kunai to teleport instead of his own speed.


The 4th stated they fought many times but he could never best Minato's speed. Minato's speed that he bested Ei with was reaction speed and of course FTG instant space swapping. Like we saw when they fought on panel. Minato clearly was heavily outmatched with just shunshin and physical speed and relied on reaction speed by quickly tossing a kunai and using FTG to teleport. Then Ei realized that Minato could jump to any of the pre set Kunai instantly and to counter this he just has to catch Minato as he appears within the radius if his kunai, Minato countered by using Bee against him, and then Bee countered Minato.

There is a reason they fought many times and Ei never died either.




> Lmao. Minato said something prior to hitting Bee, I don't get how he countered it if Minato was talking behind his back, Bee could have simply heard what Minato said and reacted on pure instinct. If Minato had said nothing, bee would be dead I even thought this was made obvious when Bee looked surprised when he heard Minato's voice, indicating that he wasn't expecting that to happen or he wasn't ready.


No, Bee predicted Minato's intent to jump to spot X. Minato, obviously not aware of this prediction, began talking behind Bee assuming he was cash enough to threaten Ei (As if Bee was surprised moving an inch is death when an enemy has your back). He then realized that there was a knife already placed in position to shoot at his abdomen had Minato taken a swung at his neck. Hence why Minato praises Bee.

Also you wanna talk about movement speed how about Bee intercepting Ei form Minato as Minato was inches away from him?


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## Serene Grace (Dec 8, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Actually, Databook and Raikage confirmed that it was Hiraishin that out-maneuvered Ei, not Shunshin. Not sure where you came to that conclusion in the first place.



Not sure what you mean by "confirmed"? Their's no proof that Minato only used FTG in all of his fights with AAAA, I doubt AAAA can be that stupid to not figure out that Minato was teleporting with a kunai, instead of using his speed.


AAAA even said they "butted heads" on more than one occasion. Possibly indicating that Minato might have used his shunsin instead of FTG. It was never explicitly stated that he only used FTG when faring against AAAA, hence why we don't hear anything about teleportation from AAAA when he said Minato was faster.

Just to let you know, this is more of a theory than an actual point.


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## Android (Dec 8, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Swordsmanship is a very diverse field in application and a very broad scope of things are entailed. Shunshin is 1 explicit move.


I had a strong feeling that you're gonna say such a thing .
And no , what you are saying is irrelevant , we're talking about fame here , the 7 swordmen were the most famous people with swordmanship , yet there are people would reck them in a Kenjutsu match .
Shisui was famous for his Shunshin , no one ever cared to mention him with the likes of Tobirama and Minato and Raikage when it came to speed . Being famous with something doesn't mean you are the best at it , Kakashi is famous for his Sharingan , yet he isn't the best Sharingan weilder .


Dr. White said:


> Yet Shisui was hailed as the expert in shushin and Minato's speed hype came after he learned FTG and soloed a war with it. It stands the reason Shisui being given a moniker doing with his shunshin meant he was the beens knees with it.


Shisui was praised for his Shunshin , we know that already , but when it came to the fastest men hype , he isn't mentioned at all .Minato isn't just fast because of FTG , if his speed is related to FTG and FTG alone , then that would make him the fastest character in the manga because FTG is instant , yet he isn't anywhere near the fastes character in the manga . characters like the Juubi jins , Naruto ....etc etc are faster than Minato , but they are still slower than FTG itself .


Dr. White said:


> No, I already explained Minato is very fast but not the fastest when talking about physical movement speed. He is give or take Bee level. Which still puts him in the range of people like Base Gai, V1 Ei, Itachi, and the like.


And you've yet to actually substantiate your argument here with an evidence , you are saying he is base bee level in terms of speed .Not only you are blatantly wrong , not only did you not give a single evidence , but :
- Feats 
- Hype 
- Portrayal 
- Databook 
All heavely disagree with you here .


Dr. White said:


> You;re argument is literally "Nope, Minato is the best, you are wrong and I am right."


No , i used evidence to back up what i said , you used nothing , you're the one who doesn't have an argument here .

Reactions: Like 2


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 8, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Not sure what you mean by "confirmed"? Their's no proof that Minato only used FTG in all of his fights with AAAA, I doubt AAAA can be that stupid to not figure out that Minato was teleporting with a kunai, instead of using his speed.



 Do you even know how to read pictures? Minato's superiority was illustrated through Minato evading Raikage through FTG. Please convince me that you don't lack elementary level comprehension by failing to read the pictures.



> AAAA even said they "butted heads" on more than one occasion. Possibly indicating that Minato might have used his shunsin instead of FTG. It was never explicitly stated that he only used FTG when faring against AAAA, hence why we don't hear anything about teleportation from AAAA when he said Minato was faster.
> 
> Just to let you know, this is more of a theory than an actual point.


 
 So it's baseless.

 The Databook conveyed that Minato surpassed Raikage with the "speed of the Yellow Flash," the Yellow Flash being his god-like speed through Hiraishin. Kishimoto illustrated Minato's superiority and instead of evading him with Shunshin, he was impelled to resort to Hiraishin.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 8, 2016)

I think I'm gonna have to side with Minato wins more times than not.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 8, 2016)

btw Shisui doesn't have any feats that suggest he can hold a candle to Minato's Shunshin speed.


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## Dr. White (Dec 8, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> btw Shisui doesn't have any feats that suggest he can hold a candle to Minato's Shunshin speed.


Shisui hype places him easily scalable to someone like Itachi in movement speed especially since the former taught the latter. Shisui is obviously easily one of the fastest characters with shushin, even if you only consider Konoha (who pretty much has a monopoly on the strongest ninja). Itachi is easily on par with KB.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 8, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Shisui hype places him easily scalable to someone like Itachi in movement speed especially since the former taught the latter. Shisui is obviously easily one of the fastest characters with shushin, even if you only consider Konoha (who pretty much has a monopoly on the strongest ninja). Itachi is easily on par with KB.


Even assuming this is 100% fact, minato still blows shisui out of the water in base speed.

Itachi/Shisui=<KB<<<Minato


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 8, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> I think I'm gonna have to side with Minato wins more times than not.


You have made the correct choice.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Dr. White (Dec 8, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Even assuming this is 100% fact, minato still blows shisui out of the water in base speed.
> 
> Itachi/Shisui=<KB<<<Minato


And when did Minato show shushin speed >>> Bee and Itachi lmao? Hell Bee can even match a V2 Lariat from Raikage in base.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 8, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> btw Shisui doesn't have any feats that suggest he can hold a candle to Minato's Shunshin speed.



 Bee witnessed Minato's speed first-hand yet never elicited a legendary moniker in response to Minato's Shunshin speed as opposed to Shisui who Bee genuinely believed to be legendary in Shunshin. Minato is vastly overrated.

 While I do believe Minato is faster than Bee and a decent margin above Itachi, he is still not on the caliber that people believe him to be.


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## Veracity (Dec 8, 2016)

Madara's feat against Sage Naruto kind of skews everything. I mean that feat alone would make Minato pretty fucking quick but that's only if you believe Minato arrived at the battlefield using only flicker as opposed to flicker and FTG. I donno tbh


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 9, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> And when did Minato show shushin speed >>> Bee and Itachi


When did Bee and Itachi shunshin across a distance of an entire village, and blitz a 100% kurama? Who is 2 times stronger than the 50% kurama that was too fast for SM naruto to deal with?


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## Dr. White (Dec 9, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> When did Bee and Itachi shunshin across a distance of an entire village, and blitz a 100% kurama? Who is 2 times stronger than the 50% kurama that was too fast for SM naruto to deal with?


He didn't blitz anything. He used FCD to ambush Kurama.

Bee shushined across a mountain plateau, explicitly. We have no idea what combo of moves Minato used to to get on top of Gamabunta. As we have seen FCD used from distance. So it's also a possibility that he used FCD and FTG on top of Gamabunta simultaneously.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 9, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> He didn't blitz anything.


Kurama didnt react bro, he got laid out and didnt defend himself at all, he also gave no indication he knew the attack was coming, thats a blitz.



Dr. White said:


> Bee shushined across a mountain plateau, explicitly.


A Sasuke who didnt start that fight fresh and was injured at the time, reacted to a greater speed from bee than this, it aint that impressive in terms of speed. The distance also pales in comparison to using shunshin to cross an entire village in an instant, the feats are not comparable whatsoever.


Dr. White said:


> We have no idea what combo of moves Minato used to to get on top of Gamabunta.


He used shunshin and summoning...thats all he could have used...


Dr. White said:


> So it's also a possibility that he used FCD and FTG on top of Gamabunta simultaneously.


He had no markings placed on or around kurama, he couldnt have used FTG, and if he used FTG on something of buntas size, it would visibly tire him, as shown on the next panel when he FTGs kurama. Its clear he used shunshin to reach kurama with bunta, otherwise there would have ben a distinction made that he used FTG, such as us seeing the marking he jumped to, or someone saying "he used his hiraishin to catch the kyuubi off guard" or something. 

No marks placed on kurama=no FTG=He had to have used his base speed.

And this base speed feat puts anything itachi has to shame.


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## Dr. White (Dec 9, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Kurama didnt react bro, he got laid out and didnt defend himself at all, he also gave no indication he knew the attack was coming, thats a blitz.


Dude... Kurama was not looking at Minato. Minato was stopping Kurama from killing others. He used FCD which is a space time move to warp Gamabunta ontop of Kyuubi's head. Hence why there was no reaction. We don't see how Minato accomplishes said combination. He could have shushine'd halfway, and used a kunai to warp there, he could have had a mark on Gamabunta which he warped to when he was summoned, etc. 




> A Sasuke who didnt start that fight fresh and was injured at the time, reacted to a greater speed from bee than this, it aint that impressive in terms of speed. The distance also pales in comparison to using shunshin to cross an entire village in an instant, the feats are not comparable whatsoever.
> 
> He used shunshin and summoning...thats all he could have used...


First of all the sasuke thing has nothing to do with it because it was a linear attack, not shushin. Also MS sasuke has beastly reactions, so not seeing your point. Nothing suggest Minato could blitz MS sasuke with physical speed alone.

The distance that Bee jumps is not only horizontally far, but there is also a slope. It's about as impressive as Minato's other two shushin, which is why I believe they are on the same level. 



> He had no markings placed on or around kurama, he couldnt have used FTG, and if he used FTG on something of buntas size, it would visibly tire him, as shown on the next panel when he FTGs kurama. Its clear he used shunshin to reach kurama with bunta, otherwise there would have ben a distinction made that he used FTG, such as us seeing the marking he jumped to, or someone saying "he used his hiraishin to catch the kyuubi off guard" or something.


See above


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 9, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> He could have shushine'd halfway, and used a kunai to warp there,


He shunshined the whole way, there was no kunai seen, or a marking of any kind that was emphasized, like every other time minato has ever teleported using FTG, it was clearly his base speed as no such markings were even remotely hinted at.


Dr. White said:


> he could have had a mark on Gamabunta which he warped to when he was summoned, etc.


See above, if he had a marking anywhere, we would have been made aware of it.

It. Was. His. Base. Speed.



Dr. White said:


> Also MS sasuke has beastly reactions


It was 3T sasuke and he wasnt at full strength, bee had also amped his speed with V1 and it was still no trouble at all for sasuke to react to it.


Dr. White said:


> The distance that Bee jumps is not only horizontally far, but there is also a slope. It's about as impressive as Minato's other two shushin, which is why I believe they are on the same level.


Its nowhere near as impressive as minato clearing an entire village in an instant, its very clear the distance mainato cleared dwarfs this small ravine that bee jumped, thats just being intellectually dishonest.


Dr. White said:


> Nothing suggest Minato could blitz MS sasuke with physical speed alone.


Except the fact he literally made a career out of humiliating AAAA and Bee who have both moved too fast for sasuke to physically react to, and both have admitted inferiority in speed to minato at every turn. Minato also has better shunshin feats than Bee or Itachi, both of whom have blitzed sasuke before, so theres a little bit to suggest he can blitz sasuke with his base speed.

Anyway, this is starting to get off topic now, this thread is "Minato Vs itachi", not "whos faster, Minato, Killer Bee, Itachi, or Taka Sasuke"


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## Serene Grace (Dec 9, 2016)

Why are you being so disrespectful and vulgar, I mean it's unexpected because I showed you respect and reframed from what you're doing, for not only this post but every single "argument" we've had. Is it because were talking about Minato?Hmmm, I wonder.I noticed the picture pretty fine, but I also noticed that it said through the "course" of the war, meaning they possibly met more than once, then we get Ay's statement of them meeting much more times the once.


UchihaX28 said:


> Do you even know how to read pictures? Minato's superiority was illustrated through Minato evading Raikage through FTG. Please convince me that you don't lack elementary level comprehension by failing to read the pictures.


Ay. specified that he faced Minato several times and the databook said over the "course" of the war, this content leads to more than just one encounter, and he said Minato was faster than him. Unless you're actually trying to say Ay is that stupid to not figure out that Minato was using a kunai to teleport instead of his own speed, then I don't know what to say, especially since he was considered skillful  and competent enough to hold the title of kage for his village, I doubt he couldn't decipher the different between FTG and speed. You said that it was "confirmed" that Minato was superior through FTG, then I said their's no proof that he used it FTG in all battles....yah.



UchihaX28 said:


> So it's baseless.
> 
> The Databook conveyed that Minato surpassed Raikage with the "speed of the Yellow Flash," the Yellow Flash being his god-like speed through Hiraishin. Kishimoto illustrated Minato's superiority and instead of evading him with Shunshin, he was impelled to resort to Hiraishin.



Stop right there. Databook never said with the "speed of the Yellow Flash", they simply just said he was surpassed *by* "the yellow flash" two completely different terms. Let's not forget in that battle, Minato had to drift his attention to bee, Ay, and the cloud ninjas, we can't really base that off of this one battle where he had to occupy multiple opponents at the same time.

Minato got his nickname from just using Hirashin, yet when Obito saw his *Shunshin *not his Hirashin, he said Minato lives up to his name of being "the yellow flash", so faulty logic.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 9, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Minato got his nickname from just using Hirashin, yet when Obito saw his *Shunshin *not his Hirashin, he said Minato lives up to his name of being "the yellow flash", so faulty logic.


Thank you.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 9, 2016)

Minato used Hiraishin to evade Ay, not Shunshin.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 10, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> That's a good joke considering a teenage Obito was holding his own quite well, and the only reason he lost was because he was rushing. Minato even acknowledged this.



Was holding his own because of his Kamui and because of using Minato's son for his own safety.

Guess what would have happened if not for Kamui and newborn Naruto. 





Sapherosth said:


> Show me a panel of Minato blitzing someone without using FTG. I'd like to see that. Bee "shunshin" across the mountain, yet Itachi was keeping up with him easily in CQC and got behind him. Minato also used FTG to get behind a young killer Bee, and Bee reacted to that as well.



Those two scans above prove my point.

And the fact Minato managed to save Kushina from Kurama's hit. That motherf**ker can hit so fast even War Arc SM Naruto cant physicaly react.

Teleported to her, grabbed her and shunshinned 50+ meters away before Kurama could hit her.

Nobody in the manga has ever shown Shunshin speed comparable to that one, bar BM Naruto and higher-speed tiers, as i've already mentioned. Nobody. V2 Ei himself said that Minato was faster, after shunshinning with KCM Naruto and after Naruto's praising Ei's speed. That's Fourth Raikage, who was faster than Bee.

Killer Bee put a sword before Minato's FTG, due to him being a "perfect killer", having good instinct, that's all.



Sapherosth said:


> You over wank FTG and speed.



No, i simply go with the canon, that's all.

Oh, and people still write the bullsh*t about "inconsistencies", when there're none. The Sasuke's Susanoo case has been explained by me already.

Let me know when Itachi has the kind of hype and feats as Minato has.

Oh wait, he doesnt.

Minato sh*tblitz.


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