# Tsunade vs Deva Path



## Jak N Blak (Aug 19, 2013)

Location: Amegakure Tunnels
Start: 20m
SoM: Bloodlust for Tsunade. IC for Pain
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions & Stips:
- Tsunade has a mini Katsuya on her shoulder already summoned
- Deva is currently in cooldown. Will regain power in 5 minutes.


----------



## 2Broken (Aug 19, 2013)

So basically this is asking if Deva can dodge her for five minutes.

Based on his speed feats i'd say he can. I don't remember if Deva knows about tsunade's retarded strength though, so he may lose if he attempts CQC. If he doesn't engage in CQC though he clearly wins.


----------



## Frawstbite (Aug 19, 2013)

They're fighting in tunnels and Tsunade can heal her own damage, so she can afford to rampage. Deva has to deal with her assault which will consist of caving in these tunnels and causally blasting the rubble that may block her path, and she's bloodlusted of course. He cannot block, he has to dodge her blows and the rubble that will be collapsing everywhere. He has to run and hide, it's pretty much the only way. 

I think this whole thing depends on his ability to escape, because if he fight Tsunade in a tunnel, things are going to collapse on him and that may not be a risk he's willing to take. If he can break the line of sight and fall back then he should be fine.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Aug 19, 2013)

Do note that Tsunade can easily use the destruction and rubble she creates as dangerous weapons.

Throwing pipes and shit. Lol


----------



## Veracity (Aug 19, 2013)

This isn't really a fight. It's if Deva can avoid and/or run from Tsunade for 5 min. If he engages in taijustu he gets his chest blown in 16 pieces. But once he gains his abilities back he rapes. But it might take a lot of gravity force to end Tsunade.


----------



## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 19, 2013)

> So basically this is asking if Deva can dodge her for five minutes.
> 
> Based on his speed feats i'd say he can. I don't remember if Deva knows about tsunade's retarded strength though, so he may lose if he attempts CQC. If he doesn't engage in CQC though he clearly wins.



She's certainly better CQC. 

However...

No doubt some Tsunade fan is going to come along with some stupid line such as

"Eventually she'll get a punch in and it'll be over"

or even worse
"Blitz, one punch, done"

Deva was able to fight on near equal ground with SM Naruto in CQC. I'm pretty sure he can somewhat hold his own against Tsuande. 

Deva will manage to get away from Tsunade most likely, realize he's outmatched in CQC, and ST pretty hard. That then brings up

"Whatuv Tsunade regenerates" 

Pretty sure if he really has to Deva's Chibaku Tensei will *destroy her*

No, it doesn't matter if she summons Katsuyu, as CT will probably just trap her as well.


----------



## Veracity (Aug 19, 2013)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> She's certainly better CQC.
> 
> However...
> 
> ...



No. She was matching Ay in attack speed. If Deva is dumb enough to engage in taijustu it will end his life.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Aug 19, 2013)

> *Deva was able to fight on near equal ground with SM Naruto* in CQC. I'm pretty sure he can somewhat hold his own against Tsuande.



He was? Last time I checked, every single one of his attempted strikes on the guy proved useless - either blown to smithereens or simply effortlessly caught - and Deva himself could only barely react to one of Sage Naruto's kicks. Later on, he was punted casually like a football into a boulder hard enough to crack it.

None of those instances indicate he was ever 'fighting on equal ground' with him. 



Likes boss said:


> No. She was matching Ay in attack speed. If Deva is dumb enough to engage in taijustu it will end his life.



As far as I know, the Fourth Raikage's attack speed isn't anything to write home about; his movement speed is what grants him the label of one of the fastest shinobi alive. 

I'd be happy if you could prove me wrong, however.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 19, 2013)

Deva Path is able to react to SM Naruto, but SM Naruto's attack just pushed Deva Path away hardly causing any damage, not to mention that there were 3 paths left.

 If it was Deva Path alone, he'd be stronger than that, so I'd say he'll be able to at least get knocked away by Tsunade suffering moderate damage IMO.

 As for the fight, no clue lol. I have to get caught up on the manga first.


----------



## Veracity (Aug 19, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> He was? Last time I checked, every single one of his attempted strikes on the guy proved useless - either blown to smithereens or simply effortlessly caught - and Deva himself could only barely react to one of Sage Naruto's kicks. Later on, he was punted casually like a football into a boulder hard enough to crack it.
> 
> None of those instances indicate he was ever 'fighting on equal ground' with him.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure what you mean? It's a general consensus that Ay also has incredible attack speed. That's why most ninja can't dodge his attacks. If he only had fast movement speed then someone like Naruto SM would shit on his chest.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Aug 19, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I'm not sure what you mean? It's a general consensus that Ay also has incredible attack speed. That's why most ninja can't dodge his attacks.



Most ninja can't dodge his attacks, because his movement speed allows him to travel at much greater speeds than said ninja can react to. Unless I'm wrong, there's nothing that shows that the speed of his actual strikes are fast, as opposed to him merely using Shunshin to nigh-warp to an enemy's location and punch him.



> If he only had fast movement speed then someone like Naruto SM would shit on his chest.



Is this supposed to disprove anything I said?


----------



## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 19, 2013)

> He was? Last time I checked, every single one of his attempted strikes on the guy proved useless - either blown to smithereens or simply effortlessly caught - and Deva himself could only barely react to one of Sage Naruto's kicks. Later on, he was punted casually like a football into a boulder hard enough to crack it.
> 
> None of those instances indicate he was ever 'fighting on equal ground' with him.



The fact that he could even block his physical attacks says something. I said "on *near* equal ground" Yeah no he wasn't able to go offensive, I'm just saying, the fact he could play defensive and tank a shot when he screwed tells me he isn't getting one-shot by Tsunade. If you need an example of him tanking a shot, look at when Naruto kicked him. That sent him flying, and he shook it off. Or look at when he got sent flying by KB Naruto. Before a TBB could be prepared he shook it off and used Banshou Tenin. I'm more focusing on the fact that Deva pain has extraordinary durability. His taijutsu is pretty good, but he won't be able to use it in CQC with Tsunade offensively. Defensively however I think he can make it, and for when he gets hit I'm pretty sure he can tank her at least a few times. 



> She was matching Ay in attack speed



Deva pain was able to react to FRS, which is incredibly fast. He has pretty damn fast reaction time, and can move fast enough to stay away from Tsunade. I'm not buying Tsunade Speed = Ay Speed.


----------



## Frawstbite (Aug 19, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I'm not sure what you mean? It's a general consensus that Ay also has incredible attack speed. That's why most ninja can't dodge his attacks. If he only had fast movement speed then someone like Naruto SM would shit on his chest.



Ei's full **speed** is his most dangerous attack. Something that is centered around speed with his fist held out. The attack itself utilizes little to no actual striking speed, it's high speed movement with a fist crashing into the opponent. Tsunade's striking speed being comparable to Ei is no big deal. His best attacks are more or less high speed body flickers where he just throws a punch.That's where he outclasses his enemies, and the movement speed of these are the attacks (which are hard to trace) that they have trouble dodging.

So what's the difference? Gai using asa kujaku or Neji using 64 palms for example. These attacks are zero or close to zero movement and pure striking speed. While Raikage's full speed is mostly all movement.

Anyway, that's how I see it.


----------



## Mithos (Aug 19, 2013)

I think the location could give Tsunade the win. 

He won't be able to keep enough distance from her in the tunnels for 5 full minutes. She can use Katsuyu clones to force him to use ST and then exploit the opening if she has to. Or the debris falling from her attacks my force Deva to use ST. Either way, Tsunade should win here. 

If it was in an open area, Tsunade would probably lose.


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 19, 2013)

In an enclosed area Tsunade should take this before the 5 minutes are up.

He likely won't even attempt to desparately dodge her strikes since he shouldn't have any knowledge on her physical strength. He's seemingly aware that she's known for her slugs, I believe, but I'm not sure that means he's aware they spray acid. So it may already be too late by the time he figures out he's in trouble at close proximity, and fleeing won't be particularly easy in this area if he survives long enough to become aware of the need.

In addition to that I believe the chakra cling can let Tsunade stand her ground against Shinra Tensei, too. Between that surprise and a follow up strike or acid spit I think she's more likely to get him before he resorts to CST or CT in his own village.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 19, 2013)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> The fact that he could even block his physical attacks says something. I said "on *near* equal ground" Yeah no he wasn't able to go offensive, I'm just saying, the fact he could play defensive and tank a shot when he screwed tells me he isn't getting one-shot by Tsunade. If you need an example of him tanking a shot, look at when Naruto kicked him. That sent him flying, and he shook it off. Or look at when he got sent flying by KB Naruto. Before a TBB could be prepared he shook it off and used Banshou Tenin. I'm more focusing on the fact that Deva pain has extraordinary durability. His taijutsu is pretty good, but he won't be able to use it in CQC with Tsunade offensively. Defensively however I think he can make it, and for when he gets hit I'm pretty sure he can tank her at least a few times.
> 
> 
> 
> Deva pain was able to react to FRS, which is incredibly fast. He has pretty damn fast reaction time, and can move fast enough to stay away from Tsunade. I'm not buying Tsunade Speed = Ay Speed.



 Actually, that was anime. SM Naruto in manga just kicks Pain, Pain blocks, and Pain gets blown away and nearly gets hit by an FRS.

 Of course, if he was alone, he'd be stronger than that since there were 3 pains left at that time.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Aug 19, 2013)

Didn't Nagato witness the battle between Hanzo and the three Sannin? He should be easily able to recall how devastating her strikes were at that time, and be wary of her current strength.


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 19, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Didn't Nagato witness the battle between Hanzo and the three Sannin? He should be easily able to recall how devastating her strikes were at that time, and be wary of her current strength.



I thought it was already pretty much over when the Ame kids got there and he only witnessed Hanzo dubbing them "the legendary three". Actually, Nagato was grieving over the dog and not paying attention anyway. So I still wouldn't be sure.


----------



## Joakim3 (Aug 20, 2013)

I'm pretty sure Nagato would be aware of her strength whether it be from Jiraiya telling him as a student, his first hand account of the sannin vs hanzo battle or from general reputational knowledge 

All this being said, Tsuande probably wins as Tendo is MASSIVELY in his own city and if that wasn't bad enough on cool down for 5 minutes


----------



## Bonly (Aug 20, 2013)

Deva manages to stay away for five minutes and then he finishes Tsunade off.


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 20, 2013)

I agree with Bonly, Tsunade cant do anything here. Deva even blocked a punch from SM Naruto and Preta dodged one, SM Naruto>>>>Tsunade in both strength and speed. The fact that he blocked one of Naruto's punches alone means he takes this because Naruto's strength far exceeds Tsunade's.


----------



## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 20, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> I agree with Bonly, Tsunade cant do anything here. Deva even blocked a punch from SM Naruto and Preta dodged one, SM Naruto>>>>Tsunade in both strength and speed. The fact that he blocked one of Naruto's punches alone means he takes this because Naruto's strength far exceeds Tsunade's.



Same point I was trying to make earlier. People think that Tsunade will one-shot him despite his absolutely massive amount of durability and the fact that he could block attacks from HSM Jiraiya and SM Naruto.


----------



## Mercurial (Aug 20, 2013)

I agree too

Deva Path was keeping up with Kakashi and SM Naruto, and outrunning fucking KN6, people not just faster but a lot faster than Tsunade is, and had the reflexes to counter Kakashi's underground blitz or to dodge FRS even if a surprise attack; Tsunade can tank some Shinra Tensei but can do nothing against Chibaku Tensei, which is not needed because in the CQQ fight better speed, reflexes and skill assure Deva Path pierces her with the black chakra rod disrupting her chakra, next time her head is pierced; or Bansho Ten'in and chakra rod GG, if Tsunade tries to punch him, he dodges easily, and pierces with chakra rod


----------



## Veracity (Aug 20, 2013)

I'm not saying Tsunade will definitely get a hit  in, but Deva Pain is not taking a hit from Tsunade, nor does SM Naruto have more striking power then Tsunade. 

Unless you care to explain why the fuck Deva Pain has more durabilty then Sussano.


----------



## Tsunami (Aug 20, 2013)

Deva Pain stomps if he waits it out


----------



## Saru (Aug 20, 2013)

Tsunade has the field advantage. Within five minutes, she should be able to trap Deva Path (if anything) and kill him.

Just my 2c.


----------



## Doge (Aug 20, 2013)

Deva Path splits and waits out the 5 minute timer.  Tsunade doesn't know the tunnels like Deva does, or where to go if he runs into the city.

Deva's probably better off sneaking up on her and stabbing with a chakra rod.


----------



## trance (Aug 20, 2013)

He should be able to avoid her for five minutes...


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 20, 2013)

Raikiri19 said:


> I agree too
> 
> Deva Path was keeping up with Kakashi and SM Naruto, and outrunning fucking KN6, people not just faster but a lot faster than Tsunade is, and had the reflexes to counter Kakashi's underground blitz or to dodge FRS even if a surprise attack; Tsunade can tank some Shinra Tensei but can do nothing against Chibaku Tensei, which is not needed because in the CQQ fight better speed, reflexes and skill assure Deva Path pierces her with the black chakra rod disrupting her chakra, next time her head is pierced; or Bansho Ten'in and chakra rod GG, if Tsunade tries to punch him, he dodges easily, and pierces with chakra rod



 Unfortunately, outrunning KN6 Naruto was all anime filler.

 Manga feats actually suggest KN6 Naruto isn't all that much faster than SM Naruto if any at all.

 Also, Deva Path never blocks a punch from SM Naruto in the manga. A Kick that he blocks actually blows him away. As for Preta Path, he dodges because he has help from the other Paths watching Naruto. Since Deva Path is alone, he doesn't have that advantage.


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 20, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> Unfortunately, outrunning KN6 Naruto was all anime filler.
> 
> Manga feats actually suggest KN6 Naruto isn't all that much faster than SM Naruto if any at all.
> 
> Also, Deva Path never blocks a punch from SM Naruto in the manga. A Kick that he blocks actually blows him away. As for Preta Path, he dodges because he has help from the other Paths watching Naruto. Since Deva Path is alone, he doesn't have that advantage.



The fact is that Kick did nothing to Deva, the same guy casually threw a summon into the horizon. If he can tank a kick from Naruto he can take a punch or kick from Tsunade.

The other paths watching does not make sense, Preta was directly infront of Naruto with the other paths behind him so he had the best view and did not need the others to help watch; and even if the other paths did see the punch it does not help if Nagato cannot react in time to dodge it which he did. Even still, Deva reacted to the kick from SM Naruto so there is no reason why he cant react to Tsunade.

Deva on cool down is capable of hanging with Tsunade if not surpassing her abilities although he cannot put her down, after cool down he stomps.


----------



## Veracity (Aug 20, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> The fact is that Kick did nothing to Deva, the same guy casually threw a summon into the horizon. If he can tank a kick from Naruto he can take a punch or kick from Tsunade.
> 
> The other paths watching does not make sense, Preta was directly infront of Naruto with the other paths behind him so he had the best view and did not need the others to help watch; and even if the other paths did see the punch it does not help if Nagato cannot react in time to dodge it which he did. Even still, Deva reacted to the kick from SM Naruto so there is no reason why he cant react to Tsunade.
> 
> Deva on cool down is capable of hanging with Tsunade if not surpassing her abilities although he cannot put her down, after cool down he stomps.



Besides SM Naruto has less striking power then Tsunade. His lifting ability is debatably even equal to Tsunade. Tsunade has one lifting feat and she accomplished it with utter ease. That same feat triples as a speed, strength, and jumping feat. Just because Tsunade hasn't been up against the exact same boss summoning doesn't mean she couldn't accomplish such. 

It's obvious she has far stronger striking ability. Unless your under the impression that Deva pain has more durabilty then Madara's Sussano.


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 20, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Besides SM Naruto has less striking power then Tsunade. His lifting ability is debatably even equal to Tsunade. Tsunade has one lifting feat and she accomplished it with utter ease. That same feat triples as a speed, strength, and jumping feat. Just because Tsunade hasn't been up against the exact same boss summoning doesn't mean she couldn't accomplish such.
> 
> It's obvious she has far stronger striking ability. Unless your under the impression that Deva pain has more durabilty then Madara's Sussano.



Provide panels.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 20, 2013)

^ I concede to my statement about Preta Path.

 As for the kick, the kick obviously stunned Deva Path. With Tsunade's strength, she definitely stun him long enough to get a massive kick in, but after the cooldown, it's obvious Deva Path would be the winner with his Shinra Tensei.

 Deva Path is durable, but he's not invincible.


----------



## Veracity (Aug 20, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Provide panels.



Of what? Im pretty sure you are intelligent enough to comprehend and read the manga.

Stop being a scan whore. You've read these battles before, you've seen the shit Tsunade did.

You must want scans to imply your false information.


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 20, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Of what? Im pretty sure you are intelligent enough to comprehend and read the manga.
> 
> Stop being a scan whore. You've read these battles before, you've seen the shit Tsunade did.
> 
> You must want scans to imply your false information.



You said Tsunade has more striking power than Naruto but there is no such evidence, one of her kicks only destroyed a small alleyway.

You said she has a lifting feat that she did with ease, you cannot provide evidence that she lifted it or that she did it with ease.

You said the same feat triples as speed, strength, and jumping, you cannot provide proof that she jumped, lifted or ran to the knife.


----------



## Veracity (Aug 20, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> You said Tsunade has more striking power than Naruto but there is no such evidence, one of her kicks only destroyed a small alleyway.
> 
> You said she has a lifting feat that she did with ease, you cannot provide evidence that she lifted it or that she did it with ease.
> 
> You said the same feat triples as speed, strength, and jumping, you cannot provide proof that she jumped, lifted or ran to the knife.



An alley way when she was rusty. Her current feats have her busting Sussano.

She did that feat without much effort. As any normal person would realize. 

You seriously want to play that bullshit game? You might want to use your common sense, because it was implied Tsunade did all those three things.

If you want to be a smart ass, then Hashirama has never beat Madara, Naruto got extra help learning SM, and KCM, and Resengan. Anybody could have helped Madara solo the Kage. It obviously wasn't him himself. Naruto also got help from let's say Goku to defeat the Jin. I could go on forever.

No wonder your going red.


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 20, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> An alley way when she was rusty. Her current feats have her busting Sussano.


Being rusty has nothing to do with that situation, Jiraiya said despite her state she was still the best medical ninja and medical ninjutsu requires precise chakra control the same way her super strength requires precise chakra control. There is nothing to suggest that her strength got significantly weaker despite her medical ninjutsu staying the same because they work along the same lines.



> She did that feat without much effort. As any normal person would realize.


And you cannot prove this.



> You seriously want to play that bullshit game? You might want to use your common sense, because it was implied Tsunade did all those three things.


And you cannot prove this, I could also say Katsuya threw up the knife along with Tsunade and you would have no way to prove this wrong. It is your assumption that she did what your saying despite never showing those abilities ever again. Just a moment ago you say she was rusty and could only damage an alley but now you say she is capable of lifting Bunta's weapon and outspeeding Manda (depsite her being caught off guard when Manda attacked Katsuya), so was she rusty or not? You cant have it both ways. If you are going to claim she did what she did the prove she lifted the sword and was faster than Manda with the sword when she could not react to Manda wrapping around Katsuya.



> If you want to be a smart ass, then Hashirama has never beat Madara, Naruto got extra help learning SM, and KCM, and Resengan. Anybody could have helped Madara solo the Kage. It obviously wasn't him himself. Naruto also got help from let's say Goku to defeat the Jin. I could go on forever.


We actually saw Hashirama beat Madara with manga panels, Naruto getting help means nothing, we actually saw that Madara was the only one fighting the Kage and at no point do we see anyone interfere so there is no reason to think otherwise, your examples make no sense.



> No wonder your going red.


Because people like you cant accept the truth. How about you stick to the topic instead of talking about irrelevant things.


----------



## Dr. Leonard Church (Aug 20, 2013)

IC Deva pretty much wrecks this match, Tsunade stomps it.

Bloodlusted Tsunade will just rampage through the tunnels, shattering whatever is in her way. If the tunnels collapse and bury them, Deva gets crushed but Tsunade's Byakugo lets her survive them. Deva might be able to lose Tsunade in the tunnels if he gets lucky, but 5 minutes is more than enough time for Tsunade to get close and shatter him as she did Madara.

Even if Deva survives the 5 minutes, he's still IC. IC Deva will do the same thing Deva always does, which is BT + Chakra Rod to the Chest. Deva has no knowledge of Byakugo. Tsunade will survive and punch Deva point-blank in the face, and as I see it Deva doesn't have the reaction feats to handle that. Madara without knowledge barely reacted in time with Susanoo and I doubt even BT's 5-sec cooldown will work in time for Deva to ST Tsunade away.

Deva's CST (the Konoha buster) might not do it. For one, Tsunade can summon Katsuyu to tank the damage. For another (I'm not sure about this one) I think Tsunade didn't even have Katsuyu on her when she was hit by CST; she may have just tanked it with her own power. Dunno about this one. This gives Tsunade another surprise attack opportunity.

Only way Deva can win is survive 5 minutes and get Chibaku Tensei. Which is unlikely given his IC tendencies.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 20, 2013)

You're saying she hasn't developed her chakra control since Part 1? Is Tsunade suddenly weaker than Sakura now?

 The only purpose of getting Tsunade is to heal Sasuke and Lee, whether or not she's rusty. There would be no point in getting her if she can't do that. If if she was rusty, Jiraya knew that she would  be asset with her healing.


----------



## Dr. Leonard Church (Aug 20, 2013)

Also I don't get why these threads keep dissolving into fuckfests. Ennoia and Likes boss, why don't you keep it in your pants? Or at least get a room, for fuck's sake.


----------



## Veracity (Aug 20, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Being rusty has nothing to do with that situation, Jiraiya said despite her state she was still the best medical ninja and medical ninjutsu requires precise chakra control the same way her super strength requires precise chakra control. There is nothing to suggest that her strength got significantly weaker despite her medical ninjutsu staying the same because they work along the same lines.
> 
> 
> And you cannot prove this.
> ...



Wtf is wrong with you? . 

Nobody gives a fuck about her part 1 feats. She shattered Sussano. Point blank period. Anything else you say is irrelevant. Deva Pain took a dead one kick from SM Naruto. Madara's Sussano shattered under  Tsunades kick. You got something to say?

That's all nice and cool, but it still the same outcome as Madara vs Kage. The Kage got off paneled and we came back to see them in their deathbeds. Someone with even a grade school amount of common sense would conclude that Madara soloed them. But then again you're a different case. You tend to not use common sense. So what happened? Did Goku help him? Well we never can know considering it was off paneled right? So yeah that's my conclusion. Goku destroyed hem and Madara got credit. Just like Katsuyu gets credit right? Even when it's stated in the DB that Tsunade lifted the sword.

We never saw Hashirama defeat Madara . We only saw the outcome.
But one with "common sense" would conclude that Hashirama himself beat him.


----------



## Veracity (Aug 20, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> What the fucking shit, Ennoia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your mistaken. Your forgetting that Ennoia already proved that the obvious conclusion was that Katsuyu( a summoning with no strength feats) obviously threw Tsunade the knife. 

It's obvious that Katsuyu is more known for her brute strength then Tsunade.


----------



## ItachiOurLord (Aug 20, 2013)

Well, if Deva Path does not have its abilities in the first five minutes, Tsunade would be trouble. Due to the location, she could potentially trap him. It really all hangs on how well Deva can evade her attacks, which he should be able to do for 5 minutes. At that point, he really wouldn't have to try. She doesn't have a chance of getting that hit in if he has Shinra Tensei, and a Chibaku Tensei should end her. At least, in my opinion.


----------



## trance (Aug 20, 2013)

Ripping through Superman's chest with a punch is more impressive than lifting a star...


----------



## SuperSaqer (Aug 20, 2013)

Base Naruto managed to get some hits on Pain, so Tsunade easily takes this. You made it from 5 seconds to 300 seconds. She should be able to get close enough to KO him.

You guys underestimate Tsunade a lot. She's grouped with Jiraya and Orochimaru, and was the one who broke Madara's susanoo. She also has her Yin Seal which will enhance her even more. Pain would need his normal powers to defeat her, but it would be troublesome even by then.


----------



## Veracity (Aug 20, 2013)

Trance said:


> Ripping through Superman's chest with a punch is more impressive than lifting a star...



Not when you can do both

And you dislike Tsunade. You comment on every thread to day something shitty about her. You don't like her. Cool


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 20, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Wtf is wrong with you? .
> 
> Nobody gives a fuck about her part 1 feats. She shattered Sussano. Point blank period. Anything else you say is irrelevant.


So you cant prove what you were saying before so you want to completely ignore it? I brought up legit points, so I take it you cant prove anything despite telling me that I am wrong? She barely broke Susanoo and had help from the Raikage, in fact her punch barely broke it at all with her kick barely taking off a few ribs. Madara's rib Susanoo has hardly any feats at all to say that Tsunade is as strong as Naruto because she broke a few ribs. Now prove why this means she has the same striking power as Naruto and im still waiting to see you prove that Tsunde threw up the sword and was faster than Manda despite the manga proving otherwise.



> Deva Pain took a dead one kick from SM Naruto. Madara's Sussano shattered under  Tsunades kick. You got something to say?


Provide evidence why that kick that broke only a few of Madara's rib Susanoo (not even full Susanoo) puts her on the same level as SM Naruto.



> That's all nice and cool, but it still the same outcome as Madara vs Kage. The Kage got off paneled and we came back to see them in their deathbeds. Someone with even a grade school amount of common sense would conclude that Madara soloed them. But then again you're a different case. You tend to not use common sense. So what happened? Did Goku help him? Well we never can know considering it was off paneled right? So yeah that's my conclusion. Goku destroyed hem and Madara got credit.


And you opinion makes no sense for the same reasons I said before, there is nothing that implies that he recieved help.



> Just like Katsuyu gets credit right? Even when it's stated in the DB that Tsunade lifted the sword.


I asked you earlier to provide the evidence and you did not, ill ask you to do it again. She did not react to Manda the first time so why would I think that she did it the second time, even if it is in the Databook the manga quite clearly shows that it is not the case. She cannot go from poor reactions to top tier reactions within the span of a few panels.



> We never saw Hashirama defeat Madara . We only saw the outcome.
> But one with "common sense" would conclude that Hashirama himself beat him.


Because it is implied that he solo'd where as there is no implication that she grabbed the sword and pulled off a feat that she was not capable of a few panels ago. There is no clear evidence exactly what happened. If it is in the Databook like you say then I need to see it and even still that would make no sense because the manga clearly shows her poorly reacting to Manda wrapping around Katsuya and as far as I know the manga itself would be the highest authority because the DB has made no sense on multiple occasions.



Likes boss said:


> Your mistaken. Your forgetting that Ennoia already proved that the obvious conclusion was that Katsuyu( a summoning with no strength feats) obviously threw Tsunade the knife.
> 
> It's obvious that Katsuyu is more known for her brute strength then Tsunade.



I didnt say thats what happened but it is a viable option considering the sequence of events. Tsunade barely messed up an alleyway, there is nothing to suggest she lifted that sword. You said she was rusty and thats why she sucked with her initial kick then told me she lifted the sword, now either her striking feats suck and she can lift well or she didnt move that sword.


----------



## ItachiOurLord (Aug 20, 2013)

Quick question, is this place always this much of a shitstorm?


----------



## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 20, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Not when you can do both
> 
> And you dislike Tsunade. You comment on every thread to day something shitty about her. You don't like her. Cool



You seem to go with Tsunade almost every time.

Not being offensive or anything, just saying you seem to be a fan of her yourself.

1. I think it's pretty obvious she handled the sword
2. I never thought SM Naruto had better striking power, I just thought that if Deva can take hits from him without too much trouble Tsunade shouldn't be able to one shot him.
3. It's more so Deva would learn his lesson if he tries going CQC, and could probably avoid her without too much trouble. His movement speed and reaction speed both are superior to her. 

4. What chapter did she shatter Madara's Susanoo again? I don't mean I want proof I know it happened, I just want to re-read that. That was supposed to be one of his clones was it not?


----------



## Dr. Leonard Church (Aug 20, 2013)

ItachiOurLord said:


> Quick question, is this place always this much of a shitstorm?



Yes. Yes it is.


----------



## ItachiOurLord (Aug 20, 2013)

Dr. Leonard Church said:


> Yes. Yes it is.


Great. Can't wait.


----------



## Dr. Leonard Church (Aug 20, 2013)

Go to the KC, there's so little shitstorms ever. Place is nice, but it's a little different than these matchups.


----------



## trance (Aug 21, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Not when you can do both
> 
> And you dislike Tsunade. You comment on every thread to day something shitty about her. You don't like her. Cool



Whoa, whoa...animosity. 

Leave what's past in the past. 

Now, I also don't think SM Naruto has Tsunade's striking strength...


----------



## ItachiOurLord (Aug 21, 2013)

Dr. Leonard Church said:


> Go to the KC, there's so little shitstorms ever. Place is nice, but it's a little different than these matchups.


I've gone through shitstorms before, and I'll do it again. It just seems silly and pointless to go back at it like this. This isn't debating. This is straight up bickering.


----------



## Veracity (Aug 21, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> So you cant prove what you were saying before so you want to completely ignore it? I brought up legit points, so I take it you cant prove anything despite telling me that I am wrong? She barely broke Susanoo and had help from the Raikage, in fact her punch barely broke it at all with her kick barely taking off a few ribs. Madara's rib Susanoo has hardly any feats at all to say that Tsunade is as strong as Naruto because she broke a few ribs. Now prove why this means she has the same striking power as Naruto and im still waiting to see you prove that Tsunde threw up the sword and was faster than Manda despite the manga proving otherwise.
> 
> 
> Provide evidence why that kick that broke only a few of Madara's rib Susanoo (not even full Susanoo) puts her on the same level as SM Naruto.
> ...



I've proven what I've said. You can't prove that Deva pain has more durabilty then Sussano:broke
Nor did you bring up any legit points. Btw Madara was taking hits from a weighted Ay.
I don't need to prove that Tsunade lifted the sword. It's common sense. No one else could have done so. Katsuyu has virtually no strentgh feats and it's never been inside she has, where as Tsunade is known for her strentgh. I'm still waiting for you to prove Deva>Sussano.

Proven. ALOT more then just ribs.

Exactly. Nothing that imied that J-man or Katsuyu lifted a sword that is far out of their strength capabilities.

Reacting to Manda does not make her top-tier? And when did she show poor reactions feat prior? She was riddled with a phobia and once this was overcome she started showing her real potential despite still being rusty. Reacting to Manda wa off panel anyways. But still. How does that even pertain to the conversation at hand? It has nothing to do with her being stronger then Naruto. She's not going to be lifting Deva pain, she's going to be punching him. Which will destroy his body just like Sussano.

Why are you even under the impression that her heaven kick of pain feat was unimpressive? It' created a similar crater of Ay's Liger bomb. Is that not impressive? When has Naruto used a striking feat more impressive? 

Actually it's the opposite. It's implied that Tsunade did so, that's why it directly says she intercepted Manda mid-strike while lifting Buntas sword. Just read in physical prowess:
 And even more so, Jirayia and Katsuyu don't have any strentgh even close to that. So who else could have done it?

Anyways, lets see some SM Naruto feats more impressive then a Sussano shatter.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 21, 2013)

This reminds me of the scene in Jason where Jason chases teenagers through the sewers.   Only this time Jason kills them instead of getting melted by sulfuric acid.


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 21, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I've proven what I've said. You can't prove that Deva pain has more durabilty then Sussano:broke


You told me that part one was irrelevant, thats not providing proof. Even if we were to say that Tsunade lifted the knife (which I am not admitting to) Naruto lifted and tossed a summon the size of the one that wields that knife making his feat superior. Deva blocked a punch from that man, there is no evidence that Tsunade would do better, thats all im saying. Madara's ribs have very little feats to suggest it should be compared to anything because it would be loaded with speculation. Instead of asking if Deva is more durable than Madara's ribs its best to simply stick to the facts that we have. Naruto has far superior strength feats and Deva blocked him. Human took a kick from Jiraiya and survived and Jiraiya knocked a boss summon many meters away; Naruto has superior strength showings to even Jiraiya's which are far superior to Tsunade's.



> Nor did you bring up any legit points.


Other than Tsunade not reacting to Manda and later not only reacting to him but outpacing him?
Or Tsunade lifting a knife when a few chapters ago she barely destroyed an alley?
You saying she was rusty and thus weaker but me providing reasoning why her striking wouldnt change?
You saying she was rusty and thus barely destroying an alley but later lifting the sword?



> Btw Madara was taking hits from a weighted Ay.


How do you quantify exactly how much damage was inflicted? Weighted A was also capable of breaking Madara's ribs as well so it is comparable to the damage that Tsunade did.



> I don't need to prove that Tsunade lifted the sword. It's common sense. No one else could have done so. Katsuyu has virtually no strentgh feats and it's never been inside she has, where as Tsunade is known for her strentgh. I'm still waiting for you to prove Deva>Sussano.


Katsuya is a summon larger than Bunta, its not necessary for her to have strength feats to move the sword. However despite this she was capable of moving the large log that was ontop of Tsunade so she has some strength. Its not unreasonable to say she can move the sword.



> Exactly. Nothing that imied that J-man or Katsuyu lifted a sword that is far out of their strength capabilities.


There is absoluely nothing implied at all during that scene for the reasons I stated above. No one had shown strength feats that allowed them to be able to toss that but given Katsuya's size and moving that log the most logical assumption would be she did it or it was an effort between the both of them or whatever. There is no exact conclusion but based on the feats at the time there is no evidence Tsunade alone could do this.



> Reacting to Manda does not make her top-tier? And when did she show poor reactions feat prior? She was riddled with a phobia and once this was overcome she started showing her real potential despite still being rusty. Reacting to Manda wa off panel anyways. But still. How does that even pertain to the conversation at hand? It has nothing to do with her being stronger then Naruto. She's not going to be lifting Deva pain, she's going to be punching him. Which will destroy his body just like Sussano.


You can see how shocked she is when Manda wrapped around Katsuya so how was she capable of catching Manda later? It was off panel, thats my point, you brought it up and said it was a speed/strength/jumping feat and I simply said it wasnt because there is nothing conclusive. 



> Why are you even under the impression that her heaven kick of pain feat was unimpressive? It' created a similar crater of Ay's Liger bomb. Is that not impressive?


Lol no, they are not similar, A made a huge crater in the earth that they had to jump out of; theyre not even comparable.


----------



## Veracity (Aug 21, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> You told me that part one was irrelevant, thats not providing proof. Even if we were to say that Tsunade lifted the knife (which I am not admitting to) Naruto lifted and tossed a summon the size of the one that wields that knife making his feat superior. Deva blocked a punch from that man, there is no evidence that Tsunade would do better, thats all im saying. Madara's ribs have very little feats to suggest it should be compared to anything because it would be loaded with speculation. Instead of asking if Deva is more durable than Madara's ribs its best to simply stick to the facts that we have. Naruto has far superior strength feats and Deva blocked him. Human took a kick from Jiraiya and survived and Jiraiya knocked a boss summon many meters away; Naruto has superior strength showings to even Jiraiya's which are far superior to Tsunade's.
> 
> 
> Other than Tsunade not reacting to Manda and later not only reacting to him but outpacing him?
> ...



How about this. We save the Pre-Time skip feats for private Messege or something. I can explain them. But id rather not in this thread. It's completely irrelevant and Lifting and striking feats don't add up. Especially in Naruto. And btw why'd you completely ignore the wiki that directly says Tsunade intercepted Manda while carrying Bunts sword. And even counts it as a strentgh feat? Just completely ignore it, then say Katsuyu did it when it isn't implied and Kishi said Directly said Tsunade did it? Okay.

It wasn't the ribs. It was his full Sussano. And it was shattered. The same Sussano that was only cracking by a weightend v2 Ay and Naruto's Big Ball Resengan Technique. If a she senjutsu powered resengan didn't budge Sussano, then why would a single punch from him do so? Tsunade kinda did though.

Her destroying an alley way(while rustier then now;obviously) is pretty impressive. Considering it created a crater similar to Ay's liger bomb

:Link removed
:Link removed
- Note that Ay and Sasuke were in a crater prior to the liger Bomb die to Jugos assault.

Also the crater created by a senjutsu powered resengan was pretty pitiful:Link removed
-you could say Madara's Sussano stopped the impact. But logically, the spinning ball of energy(much stronger then a senjutsu punch) should have pushed Madara through the rock and created a rather large crater. This doesn't even make sense because of his lifting strentgh right? Exactly.

You basically just take the damage regular Ay can cause, and add more. Got it?

Atleast your a far better debater the IceGaze.


----------



## Legend777 (Aug 21, 2013)

Tendo isn't going to use his large scale attacks in Amekagure .

And I don't see his normal ST's doing much damage to her .

Tsunades eventually manages to get a punch in and OHKO Deva path. She wins.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Aug 21, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> And btw why'd you completely ignore the wiki that directly says Tsunade intercepted Manda



The wiki, as in naruto.wikia.com? Those are also written by anonymous fans of the manga and are not validated as an actual source.



> It wasn't the ribs. It was his full Sussano. And it was shattered.



When did Tsunade ever shatter Madara's Complete Susano'o? I was under the impression she only managed to fracture his ribcage, that entire fight.



> The same Sussano that was only cracking by a weightend v2 Ay and Naruto's Big Ball Resengan Technique. If a she senjutsu powered resengan didn't budge Sussano, then why would a single punch from him do so? Tsunade kinda did though.



First off, Naruto's Massive Rasengan wasn't powered by natural energy, ergo, it wasn't done in Sage Mode, but in Base. Secondly, it didn't crack Madara's Susano'o at all, from what we saw, it did absolutely nothing. 



> Also the crater created by a senjutsu powered resengan was pretty pitiful:3
> -you could say Madara's Sussano stopped the impact. But logically, the spinning ball of energy(much stronger then a senjutsu punch) should have pushed Madara through the rock and created a rather large crater. *This doesn't even make sense because of his lifting strentgh right? *Exactly.



Sorry, what? What's so impressive about Base Naruto's lifting strength? The Massive Rasengan being unable to 'cause a large crater' had to do with the technique not exploding at that point, because Naruto was simply slamming the sphere of chakra into Susano'o.


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 21, 2013)

Pretty much what Muffin said. All im saying is that basing whether or not Tsunade is going to one shot Deva based on the fact that she broke Susanoo's ribs does not seem like a good argument. Its way too much speculation in her feats.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 21, 2013)

Tsunade would be difficult to put down for Deva Path even with his powers. I mean she's taken a Chou Shinra Tensei unprotected before and survived, and with regeneration and powerful healing on top of that, the chance of blunt force trauma of any kind killing her is practically none. Chibaku Tensei failed to kill a Katsuyu division as well, so as long as she surrounds Tsunade she can arguably survive that attack as well. Of course, he won't use a move of that level in his home village.

Bansho Ten'in is a bad idea too, since it draws Tsunade into close combat (which is the last thing Deva Path is going to want). In this instance Deva Path _may_ be able to out-run Tsunade long enough to regain his powers, but even if he does, he uses a gravity-based technique once, and then he has another 5+ second interval before he can use his powers again. And this is a stipulation Tsunade is very _aware_ of. 

If you ask me its just a matter of time before Tsunade lands a hit - between the enclosed space, her super strength, playing possum tactics and fast leaps/shunshins, she's going to get close to him eventually. Deva can't outrun her forever.​​


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 21, 2013)

Tsunade beats this massively gimped Deva. Not only he cannot jump high enough to stay away form her, he won't use his big guns either.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade would be difficult to put down for Deva Path even with his powers.* I mean she's taken a Chou Shinra Tensei unprotected before and survived*,​​



This never happened. Tsunade was hit by the destruction that CST created. The jutsu itself would've killed her.


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 21, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Deva can't outrun her forever.​​


He only has to for 5 minutes.


----------



## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 21, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade would be difficult to put down for Deva Path even with his powers. I mean she's taken a Chou Shinra Tensei unprotected before and survived, and with regeneration and powerful healing on top of that, the chance of blunt force trauma of any kind killing her is practically none. Chibaku Tensei failed to kill a Katsuyu division as well, so as long as she surrounds Tsunade she can arguably survive that attack as well. Of course, he won't use a move of that level in his home village.
> 
> Bansho Ten'in is a bad idea too, since it draws Tsunade into close combat (which is the last thing Deva Path is going to want). In this instance Deva Path _may_ be able to out-run Tsunade long enough to regain his powers, but even if he does, he uses a gravity-based technique once, and then he has another 5+ second interval before he can use his powers again. And this is a stipulation Tsunade is very _aware_ of.
> 
> If you ask me its just a matter of time before Tsunade lands a hit - between the enclosed space, her super strength, playing possum tactics and fast leaps/shunshins, she's going to get close to him eventually. Deva can't outrun her forever.​​



1. Her surviving the CST that destroyed the leaf village is a valid feat. However
what if Deva path were to focus that all on her? I have a feeling she'd be blown
to smithereens.
2. There's no way she's getting out of CT. Katsuyu division survived because she was
under the same chakra cloak Naruto was. If Tsunade get's caught in CT she's
absolutely 100% screwed no chance of getting out.
3. Bansho Ten'in isn't limited to pulling the target to the user. It's been
shown before he can use it to chuck things around. I.e throw Tsunade in a wall

With powers Deva would just flat out stomp Tsunade, as her style is a terrible
match up to his. This is a matter of "Can Deva survive for 5 minutes?" not a 
plain old Tsunade vs Tendo pain match. 

Tsunade can't one-shot Deva. SM Naruto's strength is near Tsunades, and Deva
wasn't even close to one-shotted by him, unlike Preta or Asura. 

Deva Path Movement Speed > Tsunade's
Deva Path Reaction Speed > Tsunade's

Believe it or not...
Deva Path by himself has pretty similar level of endurance to Tsunade. I think
we can agree that Nagato has more chakra to channel. Contrary to what some people
believe Tsunade isn't number 1 in endurance. 

I find it perfectly feasible that Deva path can hold out for 5 minutes.


----------



## Bringer (Aug 21, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> This never happened. Tsunade was hit by the destruction that CST created. The jutsu itself would've killed her.




Wasn't she literally chasing after Pain when the technique was used? If anything she got the full brunt of it.




Augustus Haugerud said:


> 1. Her surviving the CST that destroyed the leaf village is a valid feat. However
> what if Deva path were to focus that all on her? I have a feeling she'd be blown
> to smithereens.



Technically speaking... how does one focus an attack that pushes everything from every single angle? 



> 2. There's no way she's getting out of CT. Katsuyu division survived because she was
> under the same chakra cloak Naruto was. If Tsunade get's caught in CT she's
> absolutely 100% screwed no chance of getting out.



He wouldn't use such a attack in his home village.


> 3. Bansho Ten'in isn't limited to pulling the target to the user. It's been
> shown before he can use it to chuck things around. I.e throw Tsunade in a wall



Tsunade has some great durability feats, throwing her to a wall would serve no purpose, and pulling her towards him would be incredibly risky.



> With powers Deva would just flat out stomp Tsunade, as her style is a terrible
> match up to his. This is a matter of "Can Deva survive for 5 minutes?" not a
> plain old Tsunade vs Tendo pain match.



Considering Deva only has one move in his entire arsenal that can kill Tsunade, if this were a regular match he would not "flat out stomp" Tsunade.


> Tsunade can't one-shot Deva. SM Naruto's strength is near Tsunades, and Deva
> wasn't even close to one-shotted by him, unlike Preta or Asura.



Tsunade's striking strength is on an entirely other level when compared to Sage Mode Naruto. By saying this, your more or less arguing that Deva path is more durable than ribcage Susanoo.



> Deva Path Movement Speed > Tsunade's
> Deva Path Reaction Speed > Tsunade's



I agree, however the speed gap and reaction speed gap isn't that big where Tsunade would be outclassed. Tsunade could still very well hold her own against Deva.



> Believe it or not...
> Deva Path by himself has pretty similar level of endurance to Tsunade. I think
> we can agree that Nagato has more chakra to channel. Contrary to what some people
> believe Tsunade isn't number 1 in endurance.



Unless OP specifies, we more or less have to use the Deva path that Naruto fought. Sure we could make assumptions that Deva would have more chakra due to the other paths not being active, but I don't think it works like that. We didn't see any of the paths getting stronger as Naruto defeated them one by one.



> I find it perfectly feasible that Deva path can hold out for 5 minutes.



Then you are clearly underestimating Tsunade.


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 21, 2013)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Wasn't she literally chasing after Pain when the technique was used? If anything she got the full brunt of it.



Then so did the ANBU that was with her but he got up like nothing happened. It even looks like he defended them both with Doton because they have a perfect cube around them here that they look to have come out of the page before.


----------



## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 21, 2013)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Wasn't she literally chasing after Pain when the technique was used? If anything she got the full brunt of it.



No she wasn't. She and Katsuyu braced herself and everyone else for the blast, and then was out of chakra. After getting out of the stunned state of "The village is gone" she ran out there and was going to "fight" Pain who was casually going to remove her with Asura path since she was weakened. (Yeah I don't think Asura would take out a Non-exhausted Tsunade)


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 21, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> This never happened. Tsunade was hit by the destruction that CST created. The jutsu itself would've killed her.



The area of Konoha Tsunade was in when Pein used CST wasn't reduced to rubble (like the areas Shikamaru, Sakura, Hinata etc. were in), it was outright flattened altogether. The damage dealt was to the same extent that the center of Konoha was. I don't actually know if she was hit head on by the CST, but she took the worst of the damage it inflicted at least.



Augustus Haugerud said:


> 1. Her surviving the CST that destroyed the leaf village is a valid feat. However
> what if Deva path were to focus that all on her? I have a feeling she'd be blownto smithereens.



I don't even know if he can do that. I know he can produce powerful Shinra Tensei, but his strongest form of it is the _Chou Shinra Tensei_, which is a different technique, and performed on a massive scale. If he can do that, then sure, she would probably die.



> 2. There's no way she's getting out of CT. Katsuyu division survived because she was under the same chakra cloak Naruto was. If Tsunade get's caught in CT she's absolutely 100% screwed no chance of getting out



I don't know. Remember that Katsuyu divisions took a direct hit from Chou Shinra Tensei, as well as the collateral damage that followed, and lived to tell the tale. Also remember that a full sized Katsuyu would be able to protect Tsunade a lot more effectively than a small, human-sized one. I know that slugs have the natural ability to stretch and flatten their bodies at will too (which IRL allows them to escape through crevices and cracks), giant rocks blasting into Katsuyu would have barely any effect. 

I think its plausible that the slug could survive.




> 3. Bansho Ten'in isn't limited to pulling the target to the user. It's been shown before he can use it to chuck things around. I.e throw Tsunade in a wall



But that level of damage is utterly useless against her. Pein wouldn't bother with that kind of tactic.



> With powers Deva would just flat out stomp Tsunade, as her style is a terrible match up to his. This is a matter of "Can Deva survive for 5 minutes?" not a plain old Tsunade vs Tendo pain match.



Nah, he wouldn't. He'd have a lot of trouble putting her down.



> Tsunade can't one-shot Deva. SM Naruto's strength is near Tsunades, and Deva wasn't even close to one-shotted by him, unlike Preta or Asura.
> 
> Deva Path Movement Speed > Tsunade's
> Deva Path Reaction Speed > Tsunade's



I'm not sure about the former. Tsunade's punches can literally tear holes inside people, and even shatter Susano'o. Sage Mode Naruto stopping a charging giant rhino and throwing him into the air was still one of the best strength feats in the manga, but yet his strikes didn't seem to have nearly the same impact that hers have iirc.



> Believe it or not...
> Deva Path by himself has pretty similar level of endurance to Tsunade. I think
> we can agree that Nagato has more chakra to channel. Contrary to what some people
> believe Tsunade isn't number 1 in endurance.



Agreed.



> I find it perfectly feasible that Deva path can hold out for 5 minutes.



I'm not saying he wouldn't necessarily last that long, I just don't think lasting that long that means he's going to win.​​


----------



## Bringer (Aug 21, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Then so did the ANBU that was with her but he got up like nothing happened. It even looks like he defended them both with Doton because they have a perfect cube around them here that they look to have come out of the page before.



I wouldn't call that a perfect cube... not even close. It just looks like slabs of earth from the debris stacked up together.



Augustus Haugerud said:


> No she wasn't. She and Katsuyu braced herself and everyone else for the blast, and then was out of chakra. After getting out of the stunned state of "The village is gone" she ran out there and was going to "fight" Pain who was casually going to remove her with Asura path since she was weakened. (Yeah I don't think Asura would take out a Non-exhausted Tsunade)




here

Tsunade was clearly chasing pain bottom left panel, because she had expected he was planning something. If anything it is a reaction feat, as she opened her seal and poured all of her chakra into Katsuyu right before Pain demolished the village.


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 21, 2013)

BringerOfChaos said:


> I wouldn't call that a perfect cube... not even close. It just looks like slabs of earth from the debris stacked up together.



It just so happened to have a flat back portion, two flat sides, a flat roof, and a flat front that the ANBU pushed away? 

So you're insinuating that the ANBU tanked it better than Tsunade did since he didnt protect them with Doton?


----------



## Bringer (Aug 21, 2013)

*@Ennoia*

First off Tsunade pushed away the front slab, and as soon as she does this the anbu has an exclamation point bubble, which is only really used when someone is either blitzed or surprised, it can be argued he doesn't even know she's there. If he did he would have immediately have gone to her aid. 

Also just because the Anbu turned out fine doesn't take away from that feat. In the end of the day, Tsunade and random nameless anbu tanked it. Hooray for the Anbu, he has a kick ass durability feat, as does Tsunade.

There is no indication that the Anbu used a technique, therefore we are led to believe he didn't. Let's go back to your old argument, where you said we can assume Katsuyu helped Tsunade throw the sword or some shit like that. Some in the past even argued that Tsunade punched the sword into the air, and continued to punch it guiding it towards Manda.

Using this as an example, which sounds more plausible.

1. Tsunade lifted the sword and stabbed Manda with it.
2. Katsuyu off panel helped Tsunade throw the sword
3. Tsunade literally punched and punched the sword until she got it towards Manda

The first one is perfectly plausible... while the other two isn't even plausible, since there is no indication. 


*Tsunade and random anbu is hit with a village buster with present injuries
*Random anbu uses a doton technique *offpanel* to protect Tsunade

Pretty sure with the latter Kishi would indicate the Anbu did something, like showing a handsign or him even acknowledging his earth cube in some way or form.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Aug 21, 2013)

I think Tsunade has the edge over Sage Naruto, in regards to striking strength at least.

Her punch was noticeably more powerful than a Lightning Oppression Horizontal from the Fourth Raikage enhanced with Onoki's Earth Release: Ultra-Added-Weight Rock Technique; a weaker version obliterated Sasuke's Susano'o in its ribcage form, which in turn, took less damage from Liger Bomb. In other words, Tsunade should be easily replicate the amount of damage Liger Bomb did to the environment with one punch, if not much more.

Striking-wise, Sage Naruto hasn't demonstrated anything that impressive; I tend to place him around the Fourth Raikage's level in that regard; kicking Deva Path several dozen meters into a boulder hard enough to crack it is similar to the latter punting Juugo into a rock wall. However, Sage Naruto's kick didn't have any momentum in it (he was kicking backwards), whereas the Fourth Raikage utilized his movement speed to enhance the force of the blow. In addition, the Fourth Raikage threw Juugo a much smaller distance.

Lifting strength is a whole other story, Sage Naruto is far superior to Tsunade in that field.



BringerOfChaos said:


> *@Ennoia*
> Also just because the Anbu turned out fine doesn't take away from that feat. In the end of the day, Tsunade and random nameless anbu tanked it. Hooray for the Anbu, he has a kick ass durability feat, as does Tsunade.



Seriously?  The ANBU surviving it DOES take away from that 'feat', it flat-out contradicts it.


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 21, 2013)

Bringer! :33

If you pay attention to the hairstyles of the Anbu and you'll notice that the _one_ Anbu that survived was the one Anbu that was _behind Tsunade herself in the chase_. Seeing as all of the other Anbu that weren't behind her just happened to disappear, I believe he'd have survived because got lucky and Tsunade's boobsbody cushioned the blast in the place of a slug division.



Augustus Haugerud said:


> what if Deva path were to focus that all on her? I have a feeling she'd be blown
> to smithereens.



What makes you think he can even do that?



> Tsunade can't one-shot Deva.



Wasn't Deva one-shotted by base Naruto's lowest form of Rasengan?


----------



## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 21, 2013)

@Godaime Tsunade & BringerofChaose - Response to both you to keep it in one post

I think you both misunderstood my point whith Banshou Ten'in. I didn't mean Deva would use it to hurt her I just meant he isn't limited to using it to pull thing to him. Using it in this style 

three

He can use it as a means to keep her away from him when he lobs her somewhere.

You both claimed that ST can't be used as anything but an AoE attack. However...
It wouldn't make sense if he couldn't do the same thing with CST, as despite the Chou it's
still the same jutsu. 

three

Godaime, it doesn't matter if CT doesn't kill Katsuyu. Neither her nor Tsunade are capable of breaking out. Even if Katsuyu could slip out through the cracks (Which is extremely theoretical) that doesn't change the fact there is an immense gravitational force pulling on them. Eventually they're going to die inside that thing.

Give me a good reason that Tsunade would be able to take Deva on without being gimped.

BringerofChaos - It is a good point that we might assume it's the same level of Deva Naruto fought, however that's just going by an inference as the OP didn't specify. The paths could get stronger when others were disabled/eliminated. Deva wouldn't have been able to do CST until the others were disabled. Some paths it doesn't make sense to give more chakra to however. No need to allocate more chakra for pretty much any path besides Deva with the exception of Asura perhaps?

I agree that Deva speed and reaction isn't too far above Tsunade, I was just making that point as earlier someone treated the matter as Tsunade being far faster with speed comparable to Ey


----------



## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Bringer! :33
> 
> If you pay attention to the hairstyles of the Anbu and you'll notice that the _one_ Anbu that survived was the one Anbu that was _behind Tsunade herself in the chase_. Seeing as all of the other Anbu that weren't behind her just happened to disappear, I believe he'd have survived because got lucky and Tsunade's boobsbody cushioned the blast in the place of a slug division.
> 
> ...




*This* three

_After tanking a shit ton of stuff with SM Naruto and KB Naruto_


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 21, 2013)

BringerOfChaos said:


> *@Ennoia*First off Tsunade pushed away the front slab,


How could she have pushed it away if she is behind the ANBU and the ANBU is infront of the cave? The slab went through the ANBU?



> and as soon as she does this the anbu has an exclamation point bubble


He does not.



> Also just because the Anbu turned out fine doesn't take away from that feat. In the end of the day, Tsunade and random nameless anbu tanked it. Hooray for the Anbu, he has a kick ass durability feat, as does Tsunade.


So instead of taking away from Tsunade or the implication that the ninja used Doton the ninja now has top tier durability that surpasses Tsunade? 



> There is no indication that the Anbu used a technique, therefore we are led to believe he didn't.


Except there is. Tsunade and the ANBU come out of a perfect cube with both being relativly unharmed despite neither of them showing the ability to tank such an attack. The only logical conclusion is that both of them were protected with a Doton.



> Let's go back to your old argument, where you said we can assume Katsuyu helped Tsunade throw the sword or some shit like that. Some in the past even argued that Tsunade punched the sword into the air, and continued to punch it guiding it towards Manda.
> 
> Using this as an example, which sounds more plausible.
> 
> ...


No relevance. 



> *Tsunade and random anbu is hit with a village buster with present injuries
> *Random anbu uses a doton technique *offpanel* to protect Tsunade
> 
> Pretty sure with the latter Kishi would indicate the Anbu did something, like showing a handsign or him even acknowledging his earth cube in some way or form.


We didnt see it but its highly implied that he did use it, its much more reasonable given the information we have than a random ANBU having the best durability we have seen in the manga. The cube had 5 perfect sides and you cannot explain how it has two flat sides, a flat back, a flat top and a flat front without the obvious conclusion being a Doton unless all of those things magically surrounded her which is highly unlikely.

Random ANBU survives CST with few injuries even though he looks to have used a Doton but lets ignore what appears to be a Doton and assume he has the best durability in the manga. Sounds legit.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Aug 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Wasn't Deva one-shotted by base Naruto's lowest form of Rasengan?



Nope, he took on a shitload of damage before, as well, including several blows from Sage Naruto, his own Shinra Tensei (being logically stronger than the one that threw the toads away, calculated at 1.2 kilotons - note that this barely fazed Deva Path whereas Sage Naruto's kick had him down temporarily), and finally the shockwave from Six-Tailed Naruto's Tailed Beast Bomb.



> If you pay attention to the hairstyles of the Anbu and you'll notice that the one Anbu that survived was the one Anbu that was behind Tsunade herself in the chase. Seeing as all of the other Anbu that weren't behind her just happened to disappear, I believe he'd have survived because got lucky and Tsunade's boobsbody cushioned the blast in the place of a slug division.



You realize that's irrelevant, right? Even if the ANBU was 'cushioned' by Tsunade's body (which is unlikely given that the initial wave of Chou Shinra Tensei was aimed downwards), we're still talking about 220 megatons of force pressing down on both of them. Unless Tsunade somehow repelled the force with her own strength (which, I'm going to tell you right here, is impossible), the ANBU should not have been any safer than if he had been hit by the technique alone.

He should have been pulverized. He wasn't.


----------



## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 21, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> The area of Konoha Tsunade was in when Pein used CST wasn't reduced to rubble (like the areas Shikamaru, Sakura, Hinata etc. were in), it was outright flattened altogether. The damage dealt was to the same extent that the center of Konoha was. I don't actually know if she was hit head on by the CST, but she took the worst of the damage it inflicted at least.





 jamming bugs 

That doesn't look outright flattened to me. In the middle image you can clearly see a wall behind her.


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 21, 2013)

Well nevermind the Rasengan comment then.

If a slug that gets flattened simply from jumping off of her full self and landing was able to cushion the blast enough to save even non-ninjas I still think the Anbu would have been safe enough behind Tsunade, unlike the ones with nobody in front of them which apparently didn't survive.



Augustus Haugerud said:


> *This* *this chapter*



Is this not still a "wall" or "field" of sorts being projected? It just looks like a bigger version of what hit Kakashi, doesn't it? Unless I'm looking at it wrong.


----------



## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Well nevermind the Rasengan comment then.
> 
> If a slug that gets flattened simply from jumping off of her full self and landing was able to cushion the blast enough to save even non-ninjas I still think the Anbu would have been safe enough behind Tsunade, unlike the ones with nobody in front of them which apparently didn't survive.
> 
> ...



Several ninjas died even with Tsunades assistance.

That's Nagato focusing a ST on Bee. If it wasn't going in a straight focused attack on him the rest of the area would have been cleared, which if you keep reading you see it isn't. If you watch the anime fight it too displays it being a focused line.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Aug 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> If a slug that gets flattened simply from jumping off of her full self and landing was able to cushion the blast enough to save even non-ninjas I still think the Anbu would have been safe enough behind Tsunade, unlike the ones with nobody in front of them which apparently didn't survive.



Sorry? I wasn't able to understand this, can you reword the sentence?


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 21, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> The area of Konoha Tsunade was in when Pein used CST wasn't reduced to rubble (like the areas Shikamaru, Sakura, Hinata etc. were in), it was outright flattened altogether. The damage dealt was to the same extent that the center of Konoha was. I don't actually know if she was hit head on by the CST, but she took the worst of the damage it inflicted at least..​​



The destruction of the attack is not the worst part of it. It's the clash. An ANBU survived said attack with no injuries at all and he was with her.

We know she wasn't hit because arguably more durable beings than her were hit by much weaker versions of the attack, and were in horribly shape. I don't think a fodder (The ANBU) would survive the strongest version of an attack that one shotted shinobis like Kakashi, Chouji's dad and three boss summons with one hit.

Tsunade would've been plain killed because her body would've been buried with a lot of force, since the direction of CST was going would've clashed with her head. And without Byakugo she wouldn't have survived that strenght.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 21, 2013)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> I think you both misunderstood my point whith Banshou Ten'in. I didn't mean Deva would use it to hurt her I just meant he isn't limited to using it to pull thing to him. Using it in this style
> 
> Shikotsumyaku: Sawarabi no Mai
> 
> He can use it as a means to keep her away from him when he lobs her somewhere.



. . I still don't see how this is beneficial to Deva path though. In that scan he's forcing Tsunade into close range - where she can easily kill him. If he throws a chakra rod or something at her while she's being dragged forwards, she tanks it, rips it out, and heals. It's a useless tactic. There's also the possibility that concentrating chakra to her feet would nullify its effects altogether.



> You both claimed that ST can't be used as anything but an AoE attack. However...
> It wouldn't make sense if he couldn't do the same thing with CST, as despite the Chou it's
> still the same jutsu.
> 
> Shikotsumyaku: Sawarabi no Mai



Why? Pein has never shown to be able to condense that amount of force into such a small blast, if he could, I'm certain he would've attempted it at some stage. The attack he used in that scan was nowhere near of the same scale as CST, and even if it was, it wouldn't prove that he could condense that blast into one small enough to make Tsunade take the full brunt of it. 



> Godaime, it doesn't matter if CT doesn't kill Katsuyu. Neither her nor Tsunade are capable of breaking out. Even if Katsuyu could slip out through the cracks (Which is extremely theoretical) that doesn't change the fact there is an immense gravitational force pulling on them. Eventually they're going to die inside that thing.



To begin with, the gravitational force will hold them down. But once Deva Path stops doing so, then the only thing holding Tsunade and Katsuyu down will be the big ass ball of earth surrounding them. While I wholeheartedly admit that breaking out of it seems impossible, a mixture of Katsuyu's acid and Tsunade's strikes may be enough to break them free. Don't write them off as dead, is all I'm saying.



> Give me a good reason that Tsunade would be able to take Deva on without being gimped.




Incredible resilience (survived for several hours bisected)
Fast, effective, and practically limitless regeneration (as well as simple healing)
Possesses the best meat shield in the manga (Katsuyu)
Can one shot him in close range

That's good enough reasoning to show why she could take him on. Whether she wins or not is dependent on if she survives Chibaku Tensei imo, but she can definitely hold her own if nothing else.



LostSelf said:


> The destruction of the attack is not the worst part of it. It's the clash. An ANBU survived said attack with no injuries at all and he was with her.



A Katsuyu clone quite obviously protected him off-panel. Unless you think that fodder survived the attack without one? Heck, even the collateral damage was too much for civilians to tank without a division, never mind the main blast. We know Tsunade wasn't protected though, because we saw where she was immediately after the explosion, and there were no Katsuyu divisions in sight. That ANBU re-appeared from somewhere else when he finds Tsunade, _obviously_ after having been saved by Katsuyu.



> We know she wasn't hit because arguably *more durable beings than her* were hit by much weaker versions of the attack, and were in horribly shape. I don't think a fodder (The ANBU) would survive the strongest version of an attack that one shotted shinobis like Kakashi, Chouji's dad and three boss summons with one hit.



Like _who_? Tsunade is one of, if not _the_ most resilient character in the entire manga. This is the woman who got chopped in half, had her guts spewed all over a tree, and yet stayed conscious for several hours to heal her allies. This is the woman whose spine was severed, organs skewed, and bones crushed, and she continued fighting regardless. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that she is more _resilient_ than Kakashi, Chouza and those boss summons. Fuck durability, she doesn't need it.



> Tsunade would've been plain killed because her body would've been buried with a lot of force, since the direction of CST was going would've clashed with her head. And without Byakugo she wouldn't have survived that strenght.



All of the rubble falling on top of her head with the force of CST behind it should have crushed her head anyway (even if it didn't pack just as much power behind it), and it didn't, so . . 

Anyways, Tsunade is somewhere near/in front of the Hokage tower before the explosion [ 1 ]. This is what that area looks _after_ the explosion. The area below the Hokage faces got blown to shit.​​


----------



## Veracity (Aug 21, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Pretty much what Muffin said. All im saying is that basing whether or not Tsunade is going to one shot Deva based on the fact that she broke Susanoo's ribs does not seem like a good argument. Its way too much speculation in her feats.





ATastyMuffin said:


> The wiki, as in naruto.wikia.com? Those are also written by anonymous fans of the manga and are not validated as an actual source.
> 
> That's nice. If we went to agree about part 1 feats we can do that later. Now were talking strictly about striking lower.
> 
> ...



I can't comment on this because you think he was base mode.

@ennoia

Don't walk away from the debate and claim ATastyMuffin solved it. Prove your shit.


----------



## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 21, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> . . I still don't see how this is beneficial to Deva path though. In that scan he's forcing Tsunade into close range - where she can easily kill him. If he throws a chakra rod or something at her while she's being dragged forwards, she tanks it, rips it out, and heals. It's a useless tactic. There's also the possibility that concentrating chakra to her feet would nullify its effects altogether.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. I guess the point I was trying to make just completely went over your head, and what do you mean he's forcing Tsunade into close range? He's pulling Naruto in that scan not Tsunade. Unless you just accidently worded that wrong you might want to steal a pair of eyes from a sibling of yours  

  Big assumption that she can easily resist chakra rod chakra interference when she has no feats to suggest such a thing. I'll believe thanks to to dat "Will of Fire" though 

  Anyways point is it's another jutsu in his arsenal he can use to keep her from closing in on him.  He doesn't have to bring her in closer.

2. It makes sense because it's the exact same jutsu. Chances are he didn't use it because Kabuto didn't have him use it. Not in AoE or focused form. That's like me saying Tsunade can only use her chakra for striking and not for lifting even though we know it's coming from the same thing, chakra. One releases, the other imbues. Kabuto didn't have Nagato use Gedo Mazou, CST, chakra rods, etc. 

3. Lol, I'm sorry but that's just flat out silly. It took KN8 to re-emerge from CT, who didn't bust out immediately, but was clawing his way out of it. Nagato was simply going to have Deva make it even bigger. Before someone says "No proof he could". I'd consider reviving the large of amount of people that died plenty. Pretty safe to say that took more chakra than it would have to make CT bigger, as Naruto was closer, and only Tendo pain was left. When he revived everyone he was pretty far away. Did I forget to mention that when Deva did make CT Nagato was already exhausted from fighting almost non-stop since Jiraiya? 

I'm writing them off as dead, sorry. 

Your list -
a. Agreed
b. Agreed, but Deva regardless is faster
c. Best meat shield, I'd rather have Susanoo than Katsuyu protecting me though...
d. Disagreed - I've already went over this. Deva tanked a huge amount of shit from SM Naruto and KB Naruto. Tsunade has powerful hits but I doubt she'll one-shot him.


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 21, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I can't comment on this because you think he was base mode.
> 
> @ennoia
> 
> Don't walk away from the debate and claim ATastyMuffin solved it. Prove your shit.



He said the same exact thing I would, what you want me to do repeat him? Its not "you think he was in base mode," Naruto was in base and you can tell by looking at his eyes. Everything he said was correct. I left out Wikia because it proves nothing; Tsunade busted Susanoo's ribs not the full thing. He just so happened to get to the post first.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Aug 21, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> That's nice. If we went to agree about part 1 feats we can do that later. Now were talking strictly about striking lower.



... what? What the hell are you saying, I can't even understand it. 

I was merely stating that using the wiki as supporting evidence for your 'claims' is inherently flawed as it's not a source of information, but something written by anonymous fans who take it from the exact same source as you do. Using the wiki as supplementary elements of your argument is pointless and incorrect.




> I already linked this. Read my old posts.



I'm not going through three pages of bickering. Is it really that much of an inconvenience to point out where Tsunade shattered Complete Susano'o? To my knowledge, I only remember her first punch cracking the ribcage, and her kick blowing it apart.

In regards to Complete Susano'o, I believe she only ever knocked it down. 



> *First of off, your wrong*. Prove he wasn't in Sage Mode. Because to my understanding and even the wiki it was sage powered. Okay. That further proves my point.



You tell me I'm wrong, then ask me to prove a negative despite you making the positive claim. 

But just to humor you and simultaneously prove the wiki is horseshit as a source, here you go.



That look like Sage Mode to you, dear Likes boss?


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 21, 2013)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> 1. I guess the point I was trying to make just completely went over your head, and what do you mean he's forcing Tsunade into close range? He's pulling Naruto in that scan not Tsunade. Unless you just accidently worded that wrong you might want to steal a pair of eyes from a sibling of yours
> 
> Big assumption that she can easily resist chakra rod chakra interference when she has no feats to suggest such a thing. I'll believe thanks to to dat "Will of Fire" though
> 
> Anyways point is it's another jutsu in his arsenal he can use to keep her from closing in on him.  He doesn't have to bring her in closer.



Your point is moot. Bansho Ten'in pulls the target closer to the user, it does not create a distance between the two to stop her from " closing in on him ". It does the complete opposite. In that scan Naruto was getting pulled towards Itachi, not pushed. 



> 2. It makes sense because it's the exact same jutsu. Chances are he didn't use it because Kabuto didn't have him use it. Not in AoE or focused form. That's like me saying Tsunade can only use her chakra for striking and not for lifting even though we know it's coming from the same thing, chakra. One releases, the other imbues. Kabuto didn't have Nagato use Gedo Mazou, CST, chakra rods, etc.



He didn't use it when he was alive either. Ever. Also it was never proven that Tsunade's lifting strength comes from chakra, since her chakra enhanced strength is described as focusing chakra into a pinpoint location in her body and then releasing it all at once, it has nothing to do with increasing muscles or actual body strength. Though even if her lifting strength did come from chakra, your point still isn't valid. You're giving Pein feats he's never shown. I'm sure Pein can perform ST of a smaller scale with a lot of force, but he can't do it to the extent that it has the same force as CST.



> 3. Lol, I'm sorry but that's just flat out silly. It took KN8 to re-emerge from CT, who didn't bust out immediately, but was clawing his way out of it. Nagato was simply going to have Deva make it even bigger. Before someone says "No proof he could". I'd consider reviving the large of amount of people that died plenty. Pretty safe to say that took more chakra than it would have to make CT bigger, as Naruto was closer, and only Tendo pain was left. When he revived everyone he was pretty far away. Did I forget to mention that when Deva did make CT Nagato was already exhausted from fighting almost non-stop since Jiraiya?



No one said anything about busting out " immediately ", I think you just made that up. If they escaped, it would take a lot of time and elbow grease. Deva path never planned on reviving anyone, that was just a last minute spontaneous decision made via TNJ with Naruto, so already your point is moot. Deva Path thought he had _killed Naruto_, he never planned on making CST any bigger.



> b. Agreed, but Deva regardless is faster



Deva Path is faster than her regeneration? Lol. I'd love to see how you worked that out.



> c. Best meat shield, I'd rather have Susanoo than Katsuyu protecting me though...



Interesting.



> d. Disagreed - I've already went over this. Deva tanked a huge amount of shit from SM Naruto and KB Naruto. Tsunade has powerful hits but I doubt she'll one-shot him.



Fine, I'll make an unnecessary compromise. He doesn't die. He just takes a giant hole in the chest and then gets killed in a follow up attack. ​​


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Aug 21, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> A Katsuyu clone quite obviously protected him off-panel. Unless you think that fodder survived the attack without one? Heck, even the collateral damage was too much for civilians to tank without a division, never mind the main blast. We know Tsunade wasn't protected though, because we saw where she was immediately after the explosion, and there were no Katsuyu divisions in sight. That ANBU re-appeared from somewhere else when he finds Tsunade, _obviously_ after having been saved by Katsuyu.



Wait, so - correct me if I'm misunderstanding - your logic is that the ANBU was 'quite obviously' protected by Katsuyu because there's no possible way for him to survive without it, but Tsunade wasn't protected because... what?

Why do you assume the ANBU was protected, yet don't do the same for Tsunade?

We see them twice, here and here. No Katsuyu in sight. Yet, by your own admission, standard fodder can't survive CST without Katsuyu, so why is it that you don't apply that same logic to Tsunade?



> Like _who_? Tsunade is one of, if not _the_ most resilient character in the entire manga. This is the woman who got chopped in half, had her guts spewed all over a tree, and yet stayed conscious for several hours to heal her allies. This is the woman whose spine was severed, organs skewed, and bones crushed, and she continued fighting regardless. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that she is more _resilient_ than Kakashi, Chouza and those boss summons. Fuck durability, she doesn't need it.



Except she does. Resilience has little to do with it; it's entirely irrelevant to a character if said character is in the face of a 200-megaton attack capable of completely pulverizing a five-kilometre village to a depth of 200 meters. Tsunade has never demonstrated durability at that level  - in fact, _far_ lower than that scale. Regardless of her 'resilience', she should have been creamed to a fine paste. 

Her level durability can't survive something at the level of CST, hence why it's illogical that she did.


----------



## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 21, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Your point is moot. Bansho Ten'in pulls the target closer to the user, it does not create a distance between the two to stop her from " closing in on him ". It does the complete opposite. In that scan Naruto was getting pulled towards Itachi, not pushed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You gotta be shitting me with some of this

1. The point is he doesn't have to use it to pull you closer, he can use it to pull one left and right, up and down. Got it?

2. I'm doubtful Tsunade can lift Bunta's sword without chakra considering no one has ever been shown to have that strength without some boost, i.e SM. What don't you understand? It's the same jutsu, it would make no sense for him not to be able to. How about we claim it doesn't matter how much chakra Kakashi has he can't make Kamui bigger than Hachibi because he's never done it? CST is just a fancy name for a really big ST, it's illogical to assume that he can't focus it. 

3. I never did claim someone said that. I said that KN8 didn't bust out immediately, he was struggling to get out. I'm getting real sick and tired of you interpreting everything I say the wrong way/shoving words down my throat. The fact of the matter is Tsunade doesn't have any amount of power even close to 50% KN8 when it comes to raw power. She and katsuyu can't get out. Hard to have any striking power in the first place when you can't move freely in the first place. 



> Deva path never planned on reviving anyone, that was just a last minute spontaneous decision made via TNJ with Naruto, so already your point is moot. Deva Path thought he had _killed Naruto_, he never planned on making CST any bigger.



What the hell is that supposed to mean? Obviously Deva didn't, considering he's not the outer path, Nagato himself was. How did he think he killed Naruto? He said he captured him. When the Kn8 started to break out he said he'd have to make CT bigger. Chibaku Tensei is a completely different jutsu than Chou Shinrai Tensei. He didn't plan on it, so my point is moot? Your logic confounds me. 
a. Nagato was already *exhausted* before using CT
b. He was going to make CT bigger, but then Naruto returned to normal
c. Nagato already had lower chakra levels before getting to Konoha. If he started out full chakra level he wouldn't have died reviving everyone.
b. The fact that he had enough chakra to revive everyone then die rather than just fail and die shows he had quite a bit of chakra left. He was low percentage wise. 
c. I think that makes the idea he could have made CT even bigger very feasible, especially considering in this scenario he won't be expending near the same amount of chakra and starts out full.

Last but not least...


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 21, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> A Katsuyu clone quite obviously protected him off-panel. Unless you think that fodder survived the attack without one? Heck, even the collateral damage was too much for civilians to tank without a division, never mind the main blast. We know Tsunade wasn't protected though, because we saw where she was immediately after the explosion, and there were no Katsuyu divisions in sight. That ANBU re-appeared from somewhere else when he finds Tsunade, _obviously_ after having been saved by Katsuyu.​




That ANBU is never seen having a mini Katsuyu with him [1],[2]. They didn't have Katsuyu.

The ANBU is following Pain along with Tsunade [2].

So unless the ANBU and Tsunade has enough durability as to tank Pain's strongest version of Shinra Tensei, i wouldn't say they were hit directly.



> Like _who_? Tsunade is one of, if not _the_ most resilient character in the entire manga. This is the woman who got chopped in half, had her guts spewed all over a tree, and yet stayed conscious for several hours to heal her allies. This is the woman whose spine was severed, organs skewed, and bones crushed, and she continued fighting regardless. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that she is more _resilient_ than Kakashi, Chouza and those boss summons. Fuck durability, she doesn't need it.



Having pain tolerance doesn't increase your physical durability. 

And like the boss summons. Damaging them is way harder than damaging Tsunade, especially if the enemy is not huge (or the attack itself).

Yes, she's durable. To take directly the strongest version of a jutsu that, in his much weaker forms was oneshotting giants, hell no.



> All of the rubble falling on top of her head with the force of CST behind it should have crushed her head anyway (even if it didn't pack just as much power behind it), and it didn't, so . .



She was jumpig on top of the buildings. If the attack hit her while she was jumping, then the buildings would not be falling in her head. Also, buildings were being completely destroyed and would not be travelling with the initial force. The force that began to destroy Konoha just hitting it's center.



> Anyways, Tsunade is somewhere near/in front of the Hokage tower before the explosion [ 1 ]. This is what that area looks _after_ the explosion. The area below the Hokage faces got blown to shit.


​
Here, i don't know where she was. But Pain didn't use CST near the Hokage tower. As he lands in a place where he even cannot see the huge boss summons.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Aug 21, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> It doesn't. It looks like poor art work. Just like Minato being Hokage before Obito even obtained his Sharingan:improved tremendously
> Just poor artwork. Naruto was basically in SM that entire battle. Why would he deactivate it?



Holy shit, my sides.  



It's extremely hard taking you seriously.



> Still doesn't change the fact that an attack like that is much stronger then a regular sage punch.



Not necessarily. We have zero idea what destructive output would result from a Massive Rasengan; we can use his regular Giant Rasengan as a means of powerscaling, but that technique only managed to make a small crater against Pain's clone of Itachi.



> Especially considering a regular resengan finished pain, and he tanked a sage kick.



This kind of argument holds no ground.


----------



## Jad (Aug 21, 2013)

I remember Tsunade pulling a Mini-Katsuya out of her jacket to give to Sage Naruto. Every villager and Ninja had a Mini-Katsuya on their shoulder before the Pain attack. So I don't see why that Katsuya clone wouldn't have done the same to protect Tsunade like everyone else. Yeah, I know, mini-Katsuya turns big? Perhaps, Tsunade did pour chakara in the divisions, and on top of that it could have just been simply expanding their size to fit that of a human body. Much like how you have a small rubber band and you can make it bigger by stretching it. That's just a possible explanation.

Of course, the argument is Tsunade came out of the slab of cement with no Katsuya in sight re-forming off of her. Same goes for the ANBU, yet I see Tsunade fans simply stating the ANBU must have been protected by a Katsuya division like everyone else even though their wasn't one shown. I guess that's to protect her _feat_ of tanking such a blast. Is it possible? Yes. JUST as possible as one protecting Tsunade if you go this route.

Also, Ei is one of the more durable characters, and he could feel the impact of a Base Bee lariat - I believe he says "keh" or something (find the chapter). Lariat > CST?


----------



## Veracity (Aug 21, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Holy shit, my sides.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw your post. That's cool and all I guess, but Deva was showing close to zero physical injuries. He was almost using his abilities to the extent he was when Naruto started rampaging. He didn't show enough fatigue to suggest that a resengan would end him, IF you believe Sage Punch>Base resengan. Which is false IMO. Even if they were close

Funny how you have the nerve to act all sarcastic and witty because you think your correct. That's  nice. Your whole conversation is moot considering you already agreed that Tsunade is superior in striking power.


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 22, 2013)

Jad said:


> I remember Tsunade pulling a Mini-Katsuya out of her jacket to give to Sage Naruto. Every villager and Ninja had a Mini-Katsuya on their shoulder before the Pain attack. So I don't see why that Katsuya clone wouldn't have done the same to protect Tsunade like everyone else. Yeah, I know, mini-Katsuya turns big? Perhaps, Tsunade did pour chakara in the divisions, and on top of that it could have just been simply expanding their size to fit that of a human body. Much like how you have a small rubber band and you can make it bigger by stretching it. That's just a possible explanation.
> 
> Of course, the argument is Tsunade came out of the slab of cement with no Katsuya in sight re-forming off of her. Same goes for the ANBU, yet I see Tsunade fans simply stating the ANBU must have been protected by a Katsuya division like everyone else even though their wasn't one shown. I guess that's to protect her _feat_ of tanking such a blast. Is it possible? Yes. JUST as possible as one protecting Tsunade if you go this route.
> 
> Also, Ei is one of the more durable characters, and he could feel the impact of a Base Bee lariat - I believe he says "keh" or something (find the chapter). Lariat > CST?



If i recall, Tsunade summoned KAtsuyu and ordered it to multiply. It was shown how it multiplied and not any one of the divisions was given to the ANBU with her. And i don't think Katsuyu would've been fast enough to protect the ANBU after CST was fired. The others had more time because the jutsu was spreading. But if the ANBU was below the jutsu, it would have been too late since CST is invisible.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Aug 22, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> You saw the edit right? And that still holds a significant value. Forgetting to right dark circles under Naruto's eyes can easily happen. Especially with the example I posted.



Why are you still posting this garbage? I couldn't give less of a shit how 'easily' Kishimoto can make mistakes; it certainly didn't happen here, and thus your argument is completely worthless, much less your edit.



> We can use common sense. Did you see the amount of force and momentum behind Naruto's resengan?



Sorry, what? 'The amount of force and momentum' behind that Massive Rasengan wasn't anything impressive, other than throwing wind in the face of fodder. That's insignificant. 



> Add in the fact that Tsunade shatters Sussano. And add in the fact that Naruto dead on kicked Deva and he withstood it.
> You have to understand that Naruto's resengan did literally no damage to Sussano while Taunade destroyed it. Even if a sage punch was stronger then a big ball resengan, it wouldn't be by much. Not enough to damage the Sussano.





> Funny how *you have the nerve to act all sarcastic and witty *because you think your correct. That's  nice. Your whole conversation is moot considering you already agreed that Tsunade is superior in striking power.



 at the bolded, get over yourself.

Furthermore, I think you're misunderstanding what stance I ever was holding. I never once upheld the notion that a Sage Punch > Big Ball Rasengan, or that it could break Susano'o, or anything to do with Tsunade, really. Look back and read my posts. They were about picking apart the supplementary elements of your argument; the logic and reasoning you employed to debate. I'm not the one making positive claims, I'm correcting yours; i.e., Tsunade cracked Complete Susano'o (unproven), Massive or Giant Rasengan > Sage Naruto' punch (baseless), Wiki is a source of info ().

I don't have an actual stance over whatever you or Ennoia were arguing about. So quit using strawmen.



> *but Deva was showing close to zero physical injuries. He was almost using his abilities to the extent he was when Naruto started rampaging. He didn't show enough fatigue to suggest that a resengan would end him,* IF you believe Sage Punch>Base resengan. Which is false IMO. Even if they were close



Sorry, that's factually wrong. Deva was visibly affected by both of Sage Naruto's blows; the first one had him down on the ground long enough for Sage Naruto to prepare a Wind Style: Rasenshuriken and throw it at him; the second, which actually landed, incapacitated him long enough for Naruto to locate Nagato; this scan displays him struggling to rise.

Secondly, look at this scan. Deva Path was so exhausted from utilizing his abilities, he outright collapsed and couldn't remain standing. That alone speaks volumes about how stretched thin the level of endurance of Deva was. Heck, he couldn't even dodge a Base Naruto flying at him from fifty meters away - despite previously, being able to outpace him from a hundred-meter lead - because he was drained to such an extent.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 22, 2013)

Here's Pain after using Chibaku Tensei.

being able to outpace him from a hundred-meter lead

 Now here's Pain prior to Chibaku Tensei. 

 being able to outpace him from a hundred-meter lead

 Yeah, Pain was undeniably weakened after CT. Pain is caught off guard by the fact that he just regained SM, yet he was able to react to a kick, yet after CT, he tried to intercept with SM Naruto and couldn't react to his kick at all.


----------

