# Base Jiraiya vs. Kisame (Neutral Conditions)



## DaVizWiz (Aug 31, 2018)

Basically a copy-cat of @Shark , but I'm not interested in difficulty, I'm only interested in how the losing shinobi dies as it appeared virtually no one stated how Jiraiya or Kisame would kill the other. I've created a specific simulation to materialize the best possible neutral condition battle between the two in my mind.


*Exactly* *how* does Jiraiya kill Kisame?
OR
*Exactly how* does Kisame kill Jiraiya?

*Location*: Bridge Entry (where equatable quantities of natural earth and water converge on a shore), Kisame is 10m off shore on the water, Jiraiya is 10m on shore.
*Distance*: 20m
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Mindset*: IC, Kill
*Restrictions*: Sage Mode, BFR
*Added Neutral Stipulations*: Jiraiya starts on top of Gamabunta (where he is at his greatest strength), Kisame starts fused with Samehada (where he is at his greatest strength). The shinobi has to kill the opponent to win.


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## Troyse22 (Aug 31, 2018)

I'll respond seriously since I didn't in the other thread



DaVizWiz said:


> *Exactly* *how* does Jiraiya kill Kisame



Realistically, nothing.

Toad trap is countered by Samehada shredding, Kisame insane strength or flooding the stomach with water

In no world where Kisame is fighting back does he get one shotted besides the Sannin wankers



DaVizWiz said:


> *Exactly how* does Kisame kill Jiraiya



Plenty of ways

1000 feeding sharks
Daikodan
Kisamehada
He simply wounds Jiraiya brutally

Kisame on 30% of his total power overpowered Gai no problem, this Gai was smashing boulders with a flick of his wrist, and had no issues with Obitos physical strength in CQC, and Obito managed to block Suigetsus BL strike with his wrist

Kisame on 100% would kill ANY form of Jiraiya in ONE hit.

If Jiraiya can't avoid CQC he gets one shotted, by feats and hype Kisame is the physically stronger and more skilled of the 2

NO exceptions.



DaVizWiz said:


> *Added Neutral Stipulations*: Jiraiya starts on top of Gamabunta (where he is at his greatest strength), Kisame starts fused with Samehada (where he is at his greatest strength). The shinobi has to kill the opponent to win.



Kisame sprints to Jiraiya
Jiraiya tries to burn him
Kisame absorbs and leaps at Jiraiya through the smoke and rips his head off

Jiraiya has no business fighting Kisame, or the majority of the Akatsuki tbh


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## Troyse22 (Aug 31, 2018)

Inb4 false perception of feats, as if there's several ways to interpret on panel feats


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 31, 2018)

Kisame wins because while neither can truly one shot the other, Kisame does have the longevity and techniques to drown Jiraya both metaphorically and very literally. On the other hand, there's not a single thing Base Jiraya can dish out that Kisame can't just use a substitution log to evade. Jman's too slow in all aspects of fighting.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 31, 2018)

I also want to say that part 2 Kisame did better against common enemies with worse odds. 30% Kisame clone making his own clones along with an ocean and subduing Team Guy, pushing the beast to 6th, is honestly better than Jiraya's entire performance against the 3 pains. The same goes for his fight with Bee and Jiraya vs the Four-Tailed Naurto. All these relative denominators along with Kisame's vast outperformance, indicate a retconned part one statement, that has no thematic clout anyway.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Phenomenon (Aug 31, 2018)

I can't see Jman dealing with Kisamehada fusion from the get go near a water source already available so Kisame wins.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 31, 2018)

Under these conditions, Kisame absolutely stomps. He's in his strongest form when he's merged with Samehada, so he passively absorbs any Ninjutsu thrown at him and can essentially deprive Jiraiya of chakra within moments with just a touch. He smacks around and drains Gamabunta. Whether or not he decides to use Ninjutsu, the fight is over when Kisame lands any kind of hit. Water source makes it so that Daikoudan can be quickly used, as Kisame doesn't need to create his own source.


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## JuicyG (Aug 31, 2018)

I'll just be starting this off with a quick panel.



Having Kisame start the battle fused means that his very next move will be Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha. Jiraiya reading the hand signs and seeing Kisame rise up with waves of water has an opening at that very moment while water is flowing rapidly from Kisame's mouth. Either with Ranjishigami no Jutsu or Gamayudan to temporarily restrain Kisame (this may interrupt the process of Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha momentarily as well) and then tag him with a chakra suppressing seal that he carried around with him while in part 2, followed by summoning Kuchiyose: Gamaguchi Shibari. After that its GG


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 31, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Inb4 false perception of feats, as if there's several ways to interpret on panel feats



You're right, its almost like some think Kisame has the reflexes of a Juubi Jinchuriki Madara.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 31, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> I'll just be starting this off with a quick panel.
> 
> 
> 
> Having Kisame start the battle fused means that his very next move will be Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha. Jiraiya reading the hand signs and seeing Kisame rise up with waves of water has an opening at that very moment while water is flowing rapidly from Kisame's mouth. Either with Ranjishigami no Jutsu or Gamayudan to temporarily restrain Kisame (this may interrupt the process of Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha momentarily as well) and then tag him with a chakra suppressing seal that he carried around with him while in part 2, followed by summoning Kuchiyose: Gamaguchi Shibari. After that its GG


How can Lion's Mane bind him when Samehada can absorb the chakra in the hair before it even touches him?

Why would chakra infused oil not be absorbed before or while hitting him?

Why would toad oil hitting his body prevent him from releasing Waterdome if he already performed the hand seals and activated the technique? 

Why would Lion's Mane wrapping  him prevent him from releasing Waterdome if he already performed the handseals and activated the technique? 

Why would toad oil restrain Kisame, who flexed out of reinforced Mokuton restraints while severely weakened?

Why would Kisame need to stream water from his mouth when he starts on massive body of water?


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 31, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> *Exactly* *how* does Jiraiya kill Kisame?


Considering Kisame starts fused with Samehada with a preexisiting water source to take advantage of...AND SM is restricted...Im not entirely sure he can.


DaVizWiz said:


> *Exactly how* does Kisame kill Jiraiya?


Likely by simply draining the old man dry in a matter of seconds...

...If Kisame even touches Jman here for even a single second, Jman is going comatose.

Unless someone here would care to argue that Base Jman has considerably higher chakra reserves than a V2 Amped Killer Bee...In which case...Wow...Simply wow.

Theres just not a whole lot Jman can do to him...As Kisamehada, Kisame would be immune to most if not all of Jmans Ninjutsu, and his defensive property would only increase with waterdome for obvious reasons. While Gamabunta helps Jman eek out some time to think...He doesnt have a whole lot of things to THINK OF in teh fiorst place.

Also...Gamabunta is on a time limit, Kisame is most certainly not. With everything jman tries, hes giving Kisame more strength. Reacting to any technique isnt necessary for Kisame here either as he starts fused....Meaning he will constantly absorb high levels of chakra simply by having it touch him.


JuicyG said:


> Jiraiya reading the hand signs


Was unaware Jman had the ability to read and track seals akin to a fucking 3T sharingan user...

Im impressed


JuicyG said:


> Either with Ranjishigami no Jutsu or Gamayudan to temporarily restrain Kisame


Youre aware that ANYTHING Jman hits Kisame with is having teh chakra immediately sucked out of it right?

He STARTS fused with Samehada meaning he drinks an absolutely atrocious amount of chakra with just skin contact

Lions mane restraining Kisamehada who has comparable physical strength to V2 Killer Bee while Lions mane is constantly being drained of V2 amounts of chakra every second contact is made with it is asinine.

Also the notion that Jman is capable of reacting to Kisames Waterdome so fast that he can form his own hand seals, then send lions mane after Kisame, wait until it grabs Kisame, all before Kisames dome is completed seems A BIT much.

Also...Gamayudan doesnt have any restraining properties...Its fucking oil with ZERO stopping power...It only affected Konan at all because its literally her kryptonite. Kisame isnt feeling anything from that when he has the strength to grapple witha V2 Jin in this state...Oil slowing him down...Good joke.


JuicyG said:


> followed by summoning Kuchiyose: Gamaguchi Shibari. After that its GG


And Kisame this entire time is doing what?

Just sitting there?

Jman can get off not one...Not two...But 3 damn Jutsu IN RESPONCE to not AHEAD OF TIME a singel one of Kisames techniques beforre Kisames Jutsu even takes effect?

Dude thats some fucking speed right there 

What is he...EMS V2 RnY amped by SM tier in Base? Wow


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## JuicyG (Aug 31, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> How can Lion's Mane bind him when Samehada can absorb the chakra in the hair before it even touches him?
> Why would chakra infused oil not be absorbed before hitting him?​



He was never shown to *insta* drain anything. Even Preta Path didn't do that. Jiraiya just needs a moment to close 20 meters. 




DaVizWiz said:


> Why would Kisame need to stream water from his mouth when he starts on massive body of water?



He still needs to apply chakra to create his jutsu, and I have never seen him use a lake itself to create Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha without also using his own suiton to form it.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Aug 31, 2018)

Jiraya fans have a habit of not understanding time restraints, and that his own jutsu speed is hilariously slow. Can be countered by mere substitutions.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 31, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> He was never shown to *insta* drain anything. Even Preta Path didn't do that. Jiraiya just needs a moment to close 20 meters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He drained an entire V1 cloak before Bee could headbutt him at point-blank. Are you aware how much chakra is in Killer Bee's V1 Cloak?

You're implying toad oil can hit his body from 20m before Samehada can absorb it?

He's only used it once in a location that didn't cater to his strengths, there's a massive body of water, why does he have to create the water when it's already there?

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 31, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> He was never shown to *insta* drain anything


He drained V2 Bee in literally 2 panels

Thats pretty fucking "insta" and thats an INSANE amount of chakra

I PROMISE its more than whats in lions mane...Ergo Lions mane is being drained exponentially faster.


JuicyG said:


> Even Preta Path didn't do that


Preta insta'd V2 Bee actually

Literally onepaneled him


JuicyG said:


> Jiraiya just needs a moment to close 20 meters


He isnt closing shit before teh guy who reacted to V1 Bee in Base sees him coming and socks him with something


JuicyG said:


> He still needs to apply chakra to create his jutsu


Which apparently takes him 3x longer than Jman to do?


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 31, 2018)

@Shark where you at with your thoughts


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## Troyse22 (Aug 31, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> I'll just be starting this off with a quick panel.
> 
> 
> 
> Having Kisame start the battle fused means that his very next move will be Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha. Jiraiya reading the hand signs and seeing Kisame rise up with waves of water has an opening at that very moment while water is flowing rapidly from Kisame's mouth. Either with Ranjishigami no Jutsu or Gamayudan to temporarily restrain Kisame (this may interrupt the process of Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shōha momentarily as well) and then tag him with a chakra suppressing seal that he carried around with him while in part 2, followed by summoning Kuchiyose: Gamaguchi Shibari. After that its GG



So Jiraiya tags Kisame
With a seal
While he's puking water that would push him away?
And Kisame doesn't respond?

How do people take these kids seriously?


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## JuicyG (Aug 31, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Was unaware Jman had the ability to read and track seals akin to a fucking 3T sharingan user...
> 
> Im impressed



You shouldn't be. Certain signs indicate certain elementals to follow. Not difficult to imagine. And its not even necessary, just by witnessing what is almost 99% certain to follow will give Jiraiya full indication of whats to come.

​


WorldsStrongest said:


> Youre aware that ANYTHING Jman hits Kisame with is having teh chakra immediately sucked out of it right?



Chakra is drained, of course. But unless you can show my something other than Samehada cutting through a Katon that relates to anything and everything immediately being drained of chakra with zero lapse in time, I'm inclined to believe that even a moment can be gained from either jutsu I listed.
​


WorldsStrongest said:


> Lions mane restraining Kisamehada who has comparable physical strength to V2 Killer Bee while Lions mane is constantly being drained of V2 amounts of chakra every second contact is made with it is asinine.



Just a moment in time is what is required. 

​


WorldsStrongest said:


> Also the notion that Jman is capable of reacting to Kisames Waterdome so fast that he can form his own hand seals, then send lions mane after Kisame, wait until it grabs Kisame, all before Kisames dome is completed seems A BIT much.



Kisame is the one who needs to bring forth a giant lake, not Jiraiya. He will react nigh simultaneously to Kisame reacting, why won't he?

​


WorldsStrongest said:


> Also...Gamayudan doesnt have any restraining properties...Its fucking oil with ZERO stopping power



Wrong kiddo, it has sticky properties making those caught in it to find movement difficult. Again, only as moment in time is required. Enough to jump the 20 meters.

​


WorldsStrongest said:


> And Kisame this entire time is doing what?



Finishing absorbing the chakra from whatever jutsu was used (maybe a second or so) and then noticing Jiraiya has completely closed the gap


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## Troyse22 (Aug 31, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Chakra is drained, of course. But unless you can show my something other than Samehada cutting through a Katon that relates to anything and everything immediately being drained of chakra with zero lapse in time, I'm inclined to believe that even a moment can be gained from either jutsu I listed.



You mean besides "My great blade Samehada devours chakra"

You mean besides him INSTA RIPPING OFF A V2 CLOAK FROM BEE?

Bee literally slammed Kisame with a lariat
And Samehada took his entire V2 cloak in that SPLIT SECOND OF CONTACT

Is this a thing now? Saying Samehada can't absorb chakra?


JuicyG said:


> Just a moment in time is what is required.




So Jiraiya has Hiraishin now?

You show me those feats

Or his crazy Shunshin feats that put him above V1 Bee in speed

If you cannot provide them, I will take it as a concession



JuicyG said:


> Kisame is the one who needs to bring forth a giant lake, not Jiraiya. He will react nigh simultaneously to Kisame reacting, why won't he



Waterdome was summoned in one panel

The rate at which Kisame can puke it up is so fast not even Killer Bee could do anything

But Jiraiya holds his ground some how

And not only holds it

ACTUALLY COUNTERATTACKS


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## Troyse22 (Aug 31, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Finishing absorbing the chakra from whatever jutsu was used (maybe a second or so) and then noticing Jiraiya has completely closed the gap



Kisame was facing a group of fucking Jonins

And didn't let his guard down

Do you think he's doing it against Jiraiya?


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 31, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> You shouldn't be. Certain signs indicate certain elementals to follow


Which is a feat youre getting from a fucking 3T Sharingan user with HILARIOUSLY higher speed than Jman

On what goddamn basis are you giving that ability to Jman IN BASE?

Oh nothing...Thats right....Just for shits and giggles cuz its Jman

Silly me


JuicyG said:


> Not difficult to imagine


Incredibly difficult to imagine

You are aware that even Sharingan users have difficulty tracking hand seals used by Kage tiers on occassion correct?

And Jman DOESNT HAVE SHARINGAN? Nor does he have a SINGLE FEAT of discerning a jutsu via hand seals like you are claiming he can?

Grrrreat

So concede yeah?


JuicyG said:


> Chakra is drained, of course. But unless you can show my something other than Samehada cutting through a Katon that relates to anything and everything immediately being drained of chakra with zero lapse in time, I'm inclined to believe that even a moment can be gained from either jutsu I listed


This is fucking silly

, and  as ive ALREADY OUTLINED TO YOU, but Lions mane is gonna take some time to eat?

Stop talking nonsense kiddo 

This is embarrassing at this point 


JuicyG said:


> Just a moment in time is what is required.


And a moment isnt what hes gonna fucking get





JuicyG said:


> Kisame is the one who needs to bring forth a giant lake, not Jiraiya. He will react nigh simultaneously to Kisame reacting, why won't he?


Because he doesnt have the feats to suggest hes getting off 3 goddamn Jutsu before Kisame WITH A HEADSTART can get off one???

Do you hear yourself?

Add to that whatever Jman throws at Kisame is getting fucking devoured in less than a second anyway


JuicyG said:


> Wrong kiddo, it has sticky properties making those caught in it to find movement difficult


>Sticky properties
>Impairing a guy with V2 jin strength while he is devouring their chakra literally instantaneously on impact

Top fucking kek man

Its like you dont even acknowledge that KSamehada fusion is a factor here at all


JuicyG said:


> Finishing absorbing the chakra


>"Finishing"
>Implying Jman can blitz instant absorbtion

Again, Topkek


JuicyG said:


> then noticing Jiraiya has completely closed the gap


> Base Jman
> Closing a 20m gap
> Before Kisame who reacted to V1 Killer Bee can do anything about it

Wow


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## Shazam (Aug 31, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Which is a feat youre getting from a fucking 3T Sharingan user with HILARIOUSLY higher speed than Jman
> 
> On what goddamn basis are you giving that ability to Jman IN BASE?
> 
> ...



Troysee is that u?


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## Zero890 (Aug 31, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> Jiraya fans have a habit of not understanding time restraints, and that his own jutsu speed is hilariously slow. Can be countered by mere substitutions.



But his Jutsu speed can caught an Akatsuki member Kappa

Well I can not expect anything from someone who says that: face Rock Lee, Neji and Ten ten is> face the 6 Paths of Pain without an arm and defeat one.


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## Shazam (Sep 1, 2018)

This thread was designed to be geared against Jman and Sannin in general.  

Have fun hatin kids


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 1, 2018)

Shazam said:


> This thread was designed to be geared against Jman and Sannin in general.
> 
> Have fun hatin kids


What about my conditions gears against Jiraiya?

Tell me the correct neutral conditions and I'll provide a second scenario with those exact specifications, and you can debate me personally.

What say you?


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## Shazam (Sep 1, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> What about my conditions gears against Jiraiya?
> 
> Tell me the correct neutral conditions and I'll provide a second scenario with those exact specifications, and you can debate me personally.
> 
> What say you?



We literally have a Kisame statement placing him below the Sannin 

Yet NBD apparently takes a subjective stance that it was retconned.... Despite not being able to provide a contradicting statement to the latter.  Just personal observation. 

Geared against the Sannin  and quick to deny manga. 

Truth is already written.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Shazam said:


> We literally have a Kisame statement placing him below the Sannin
> 
> Yet NBD apparently takes a subjective stance that it was retconned.... Despite not being able to provide a contradicting statement to the latter.  Just personal observation.
> 
> ...



Besides Kisame once being considered a threat to Itachis life, two if you count their first meeting

And besides Kisame and Itachi once being directly compared in power?

And Itachis superiority over the Sannin is well established, he one shot the strongest of the Sannin on two occasions

There is in fact later statements contradicting his P1 statements, you Sannin wankers just blatantly refuse to acknowledge them.

So stop saying there's no evidence of this, there plenty

Portrayal wise, Kisame=Itachi>>Sannin based on all updated information.

People dont like change and I get it, especially when said change implies Jiraiya is getting a boot on his neck.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Besides Kisame once being considered a threat to Itachis life, two if you count their first meeting



Seriously? 



> And besides Kisame and Itachi once being directly compared in power?







> And Itachis superiority over the Sannin is well established, he one shot the strongest of the Sannin on two occasions
> 
> There is in fact later statements contradicting his P1 statements, you Sannin wankers just blatantly refuse to acknowledge them.
> 
> ...



Itachi, yes. Kisame, you're pulling info out of your ass. 

No portrayal ever had Kisame being equal to Itachi. The notion of Jiraiya=Itachi>Kisame only came about because Kisame said he can't take the Sannin, but Itachi might. In other words, he believed Itachi's abilities were greater than his own.

Don't tell me I'm going to need to add upset Kisame fans to the list.


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## Ishmael (Sep 1, 2018)

@Troyse22 i really do apologize for all those times of making fun of your threads and the things you said about kisame.

We don't agree on a lot and most likely never will but I can admit when I'm wrong and can admit that lately... kisame has been getting sold short.

OT~ water dome after feeding on chakra 5 feeding sharks or 1000 would kill Jiraiya. 

I don't see Jiraiya killing kisame unless plot armor is involved.


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## Kisame (Sep 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> @Shark where you at with your thoughts


With Kisame already fused Jiraiya gets caught in the waterdome just like V1 Bee did neg diff. Gamabunta won't be able to jump in time if Killer Bee couldn't even move (Gamabunta's instincts and reactions are not better than Killer Bee's). Jiraya either needs SM or his S/T barriers to kill Kisame in the waterdome. He might have a chance if he can draw in natural energy while Kisame is draining him, but that needs timing as Kisamehada is fast and Jiraiya might be completely drained before he gathers enough NE to kill Kisame. Gamabunta helps Jiraiya due to his size and mobility but he can be outlasted or drained.


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## King1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Jman fans once again are incapable of providing an objective argument as to why jman wins in any match

I just saw a poster saying jman wins here because kisame said he was below the sannins

Still waiting for an excellent jman fan who can objectively debate as to why his fav would prevail in a match up in this scenario

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Sep 1, 2018)

King1 said:


> Jman fans once again are incapable of providing an objective argument as to why jman wins in any match
> 
> I just saw a poster saying jman wins here because kisame said he was below the sannins
> 
> Still waiting for an excellent jman fan who can objectively debate as to why his fav would prevail in a match up in this scenario



What the hell do you think his statement implied? If you guys would stop denying canon you'd have less reason to bitch .


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## Shazam (Sep 1, 2018)

It's like me asking how does Sasori beat Deidara who already in flight while Sasori starts in Hiruko.

We don't need to debate that because deidara already said he was weaker of the two

NBD>Kishi


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## Ziggy Stardust (Sep 1, 2018)

Shazam said:


> What the hell do you think his statement implied? If you guys would stop denying canon you'd have less reason to bitch .



I find it rather amusing that the broad term _canon_ is being used as a cudgel to stomp down dissenting views. What is being labelled _canon _is more specifically defined as _a statement made in canon_ and in this instance, it's coming from a character rather than a narrator.  What we then have to ask ourselves is whether that character is failable or not. Kisame has never met the Sanin and only has namesake to compare himself to. Which means it's absolutely failable.


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## King1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Shazam said:


> What the hell do you think his statement implied? If you guys would stop denying canon you'd have less reason to bitch .


It's not befitting of me to bitch about things i don't give a damn about, i only give opinion of match ups that i find interesting or i know a lot of the characters involved in the match up

I know literally everything about kisame and jiraiya and what they can do but i would refrain from commenting because i don't find this match up interesting but seeing those who are arguing for kisame presenting good points and and proves to justify their arguments and you see jman fans relying on flawed statements which hold no relevance in the discussion goes to show how far jman fans would go to defend jiraiya even though they can't debate objectively as to why he wins

I had a go with @Hussain with jiraiya vs itachi, and i was impressed on how he tried to debate objectively on why he thinks jiraiya can beat itachi ( although he can't ) he didn't rely on statements to justify his arguments though he does that a lot


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 1, 2018)

Jiraiya wins with mid difficulty, since he can counter Kisame's entire arsenal. Based on their starting conditions and knowledge, it is likely that Jiraiya and Gamabunta will open up with Toad Oil Flame Bullet, and Kisame would counter with Great Shark Bullet: Forcing Jiraiya and Gamabunta to avoid it by leaping over it. Next, based on seeing that Kisame can absorb ninjutsu, it'd make the most sense for Jiraiya to then use Wild Lion's Mane and for Gamabunta to simply rely on his sword so that the two of them can overpower Kisame in CQC and defeat him. 

However, Kisame would probably counter by using a gigantic Water Prison to prevent them from getting close to him, as well as create an advantage over them since he can move quite fast in the water. But since Gamabunta is here, he could always bust the dome due to his sheer size and he should be able to swim quite well since he's a toad: So it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Not to mention it'd be smaller since Kisame didn't suck up a bunch of Gyuki's chakra this time. After that, I assume the fight will simply be Kisame trying to come up with defenses to keep Jiraiya and Gamabunta away from him, and Jiraiya and Gamabunta can counter any ninjutsu Kisame throws at them or simply evade it. So no matter what, Jiraiya and Gamabunta should overwhelm Kisame eventually and take him down. 

Additionally, Subterranean Voyage wouldn't help Kisame that much either as Jiraiya could always use Swamp of the Underworld to at least slow him down and stall him. But if this failed for whatever reason, Jiraiya can use Canopy Method Formation to sense and track Kisame's movements underground or simply work together with Gamabunta to overwhelm Kisame the instant he busts out of the ground and tries to attack Jiraiya. Either way, if Kisame engages in CQC he'd lose, as Gamabunta's sword is sharp enough to slice off Shukaku's arm, so it'd definitely kill Kisame. Whilst Jiraiya's Wild's Lion Mane could quickly shatter and kill a rather large crab, so I'd lean more towards it overpowering Kisame as well. So together, with them attacking Kisame in unison, I don't see how he'd evade or survive. So Kisame would lose in CQC and in a battle of ninjutsu, so it's only a matter of time before Jiraiya puts him down.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 1, 2018)

Shazam said:


> What the hell do you think his statement implied? If you guys would stop denying canon you'd have less reason to bitch .


Ah

The ol "its canon so deal with it" smokescreen argument

Well kiddo...Its ALSO canon that Kisame drained V2 Killer Bee within seconds of touching him and that any ninjutsu that hits him will simply just fuel the beast. Its ALSO canon that if Kisame tags Jman drectly with taht level of chakra drain, Jman is going to prune up and die in an instant fucking Shinju style unless youd care to argue that Jman has higher chakra than a V2 Gyuki cloak. Its ALSO canon that Kisame can react to V1 Killer Bees lariat which dumpsters Jmans best speed feats even in SM let alone in base. Its ALSO canon that Kisame can regenerate from horribly fatal wounds that far surpass anything ive ever seen Jman do to another shinobi. Its ALSO canon that Kisame does fight people portrayed AT LEAST as strong as Jman when he fights Killer Bee and he DOES win, so maybe the ye ol "hurr durr Kisame said a thing" argument isnt nearly as tried and true as some people like to think. Especiailly when referencing a massively nerfed Jman vs a Kisame with an absurd headstart/advantage ffs 

What in "canon" does BASE Jman have to reliably deal with an opponent who STARTS in such a state again?

Oh thats right...Nothing

Thanks


Shazam said:


> It's like me asking how does Sasori beat Deidara who already in flight while Sasori starts in Hiruko.


He objectively cant beat him in that scenario 

Its called a hard counter. Flight counters like 90% of Sasoris arsena...Especially Hirukos arsenal specifically.

Deidara simply flies into the air and incinerates Hiruko with C2 spam. Or C3 if hes feeling it. Theres exactly nothing Sasori can do to that tactic.


Shazam said:


> We don't need to debate that because deidara already said he was weaker of the two


Deidara said "probably" for starters...Lets not act like Deidara blows Sasori on the daily because he admits to being the bottom bitch kay?

And a character can easily be portrayed as stronger than another in GENERAL terms, and lose to them in a specific 1v1 matchup. Those arent the same thing.

Kisame has higher portrayal than what id give to Sasori but Sasori beats him from a 1v1 standpoint for instance 



Shazam said:


> NBD>Kishi


Matchups > Portrayal to an extent actually

And your also putting words in Kishis mouth to begin with.

Kishi > NBD > Shazam

Reactions: Like 1


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## Speedyamell (Sep 1, 2018)

Please how can i input a link...like instead of showing the actual link,it shows what i intend to bring out from it.. Something like this:



WorldsStrongest said:


> Which is a feat youre getting from a fucking 3T Sharingan user with HILARIOUSLY higher speed than Jman
> 
> On what goddamn basis are you giving that ability to Jman IN BASE?
> 
> ...


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## Zero890 (Sep 1, 2018)

Now these guys also want to deny that Sasori> Deidara

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Sep 1, 2018)

I'm about to type up a stinker in a few just got some shit to take care of

DW the prodigial son shall return


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Now these guys also want to deny that Sasori> Deidara


Well i mean to this fucking day you deny that Pain > Jman despite the fact Naruto > Jman is canon fact and Pain defeated Naruto fucking TWICE while NERFED and HOLDING BACK  

So maybe you shouldnt talk down to anybody

Onto the topic at hand...

Its called a matchup kiddo

Name one fucking thing Sasori does to a Deidara who starts in midair on a C2 Dragon while Sasori is in the extremely limited Hiruko

Go on ill wait.



And as i already stated, a cdharacter can be portrayed above another in general terms and still lose for matchup reasons. Thats how vs debating works. Dont liek it? Its probably not your forte.

Next time you try to take some "holier than thou" attitude with someone elses opinion, at least bring something to teh table aside from ignoring every point they make.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Ishmael said:


> @Troyse22 i really do apologize for all those times of making fun of your threads and the things you said about kisame.
> 
> We don't agree on a lot and most likely never will but I can admit when I'm wrong and can admit that lately... kisame has been getting sold short.
> 
> ...



Cool.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Jiraiya wins with mid difficulty, since he can counter Kisame's entire arsenal. Based on their starting conditions and knowledge, it is likely that Jiraiya and Gamabunta will open up with Toad Oil Flame Bullet, and Kisame would counter with Great Shark Bullet: Forcing Jiraiya and Gamabunta to avoid it by leaping over it. Next, based on seeing that Kisame can absorb ninjutsu, it'd make the most sense for Jiraiya to then use Wild Lion's Mane and for Gamabunta to simply rely on his sword so that the two of them can overpower Kisame in CQC and defeat him.
> 
> However, Kisame would probably counter by using a gigantic Water Prison to prevent them from getting close to him, as well as create an advantage over them since he can move quite fast in the water. But since Gamabunta is here, he could always bust the dome due to his sheer size and he should be able to swim quite well since he's a toad: So it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Not to mention it'd be smaller since Kisame didn't suck up a bunch of Gyuki's chakra this time. After that, I assume the fight will simply be Kisame trying to come up with defenses to keep Jiraiya and Gamabunta away from him, and Jiraiya and Gamabunta can counter any ninjutsu Kisame throws at them or simply evade it. So no matter what, Jiraiya and Gamabunta should overwhelm Kisame eventually and take him down.
> 
> Additionally, Subterranean Voyage wouldn't help Kisame that much either as Jiraiya could always use Swamp of the Underworld to at least slow him down and stall him. But if this failed for whatever reason, Jiraiya can use Canopy Method Formation to sense and track Kisame's movements underground or simply work together with Gamabunta to overwhelm Kisame the instant he busts out of the ground and tries to attack Jiraiya. Either way, if Kisame engages in CQC he'd lose, as Gamabunta's sword is sharp enough to slice off Shukaku's arm, so it'd definitely kill Kisame. Whilst Jiraiya's Wild's Lion Mane could quickly shatter and kill a rather large crab, so I'd lean more towards it overpowering Kisame as well. So together, with them attacking Kisame in unison, I don't see how he'd evade or survive. So Kisame would lose in CQC and in a battle of ninjutsu, so it's only a matter of time before Jiraiya puts him down.



You've already conceded the Waterdome size debate

Yet here you are 

2 months later

Saying yet again that Bunta is big enough to pop WD

Disgusting, you're a genuinely disgusting poster. Leave the NBD. (Personally you're probably a fantastic guy though)


Also @Shazam 
Nice job dodging my earlier argument btw.

Just like a Jiraiya fan LMFAO
You're all just do awful at debating. Like easily the worst of the worst.

As I've said before, flat earthers make more sense and are more reasonable than your kind 





,


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## Shazam (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Cool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Go ahead and make life more complicated. Sometimes we just need to take Kishi for his word

Losers


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 1, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Go ahead and make life more complicated. Sometimes we just need to take Kishi for his word
> 
> Losers


Go ahead and dont actually debate because you know you fucking cant

Ignorant child

"Hurr durr take Kishi at his word"

>Only takes the part of Kishis words that suit his argument
>Ignores other perfectly valid instances of "Kishis word" under the guise of literally nothing but bias

Hate to break it to some people...But the ENTIRE MANGA is CANON and KISHIS WORD

Not just the parts that you agree with personally 

And the parts you ignore dont give a shit about your feelings or how wrong you are when you ignore them. Nor do I.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> You've already conceded the Waterdome size debate
> 
> Yet here you are
> 
> ...


When did I concede to that argument?


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## Zero890 (Sep 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Well i mean to this fucking day you deny that Pain > Jman despite the fact Naruto > Jman is canon fact and Pain defeated Naruto fucking TWICE while NERFED and HOLDING BACK
> 
> So maybe you shouldnt talk down to anybody
> 
> ...



 So what? Naruto does not have Shim and Fukasaku on his shoulders as opposed to Jiraiya and Pain already had knowledge about Genjutsu when it was going to be used in that battle so nothing denies that Jiraiya can defeat Pain, and Pain agrees.

Nor is there anything to deny that Sasori is stronger than Deidara, it is absurd to say that "Deidara has better feats" or whatever because we never saw them face each other in battle and we have a clear statement from Deidara saying that he is inferior to Sasori.

Do not come with that shit from a specific scenario, you have specifically said that Deidara wins in neutral conditions.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Deidara saying that he is inferior to Sasor



Weren't his exact words "PERHAPS Sasori is stronger than I"


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## FlamingRain (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Disgusting, you're a genuinely disgusting poster. Leave the NBD.





Troyse22 said:


> Just like a Jiraiya fan LMFAO
> You're all just do awful at debating. Like easily the worst of the worst.
> 
> As I've said before, flat earthers make more sense and are more reasonable than your kind





Shazam said:


> Losers





WorldsStrongest said:


> Ignorant child



Guys...please calm down.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Zero890 (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Weren't his exact words "PERHAPS Sasori is stronger than I"



You yourself talk about the "intention of the author", you should understand perfectly what the Manga wants to say to us there.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Speedyamell (Sep 1, 2018)

Speedyamell said:


> Please how can i input a link...like instead of showing the actual link,it shows what i intend to bring out from it.. Something like this:


Someone please help meeeee!!
@FlamingRain rescue meee!


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## FlamingRain (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Weren't his exact words "PERHAPS Sasori is stronger than I"



He said "probably". That could imply that if Sasori's stronger it's not by a significant margin, but it's worth considering how prideful a person Deidara is so if he's even considering it there's probably good reason.



Speedyamell said:


> Someone please help meeeee!!
> @FlamingRain rescue meee!





Put "url=insert link here" in brackets at the front, then "/url" in brackets at the back. Put what you want to say between the first and second brackets.


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## Speedyamell (Sep 1, 2018)

Yeesss!!


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## Bonly (Sep 1, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> Guys...please calm down.



Or what


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## FlamingRain (Sep 1, 2018)

Speedyamell said:


> Yeesss!!



Try what I edited into the post.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Speedyamell (Sep 1, 2018)

Bonly said:


> Or what


oooooh


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## Speedyamell (Sep 1, 2018)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Hazuki (Sep 1, 2018)

King1 said:


> Jman fans once again are incapable of providing an objective argument as to why jman wins in any match
> 
> I just saw a poster saying jman wins here because kisame said he was below the sannins
> 
> Still waiting for an excellent jman fan who can objectively debate as to why his fav would prevail in a match up in this scenario



it's been more that 13 years i 'm in that forum and i can assure you  that kisame was always  a medium akatsuki level who did quite well against bee just because he is jinchuriki hunter and because he use bee friend

kisame is part of weak akatsuki
in akatsuki there is 2 member duo : the strongest who give order and the weakest of obei
itachi give order and kisame obei

no matter what you think , he can have a special ability that can be use  very well against jinchuriki but that's all

you are talking about argue and debate but what kind of argue have you ??
kisame said that he can't match jiraiya ( even without knowing about sennin modr )
what's happen few chapter later ? kisame would have been killed in one shot if it wasn't for itachi and his amaterasu

when orochimaru said before konoha destruction that it won't be easy to kill the hokage
what's happer few later after ?? orochimaru lost his arm after a very difficult fight against sandaime who died

if deidara said he is weaker then sasori , no matter what kind of argue you have it never show that he was wrong
if orochimaru said he is weaker than itachi  , no matter what argue you have it won't prove anything

since 1 years there is those fanboy kisame who *came out of  nowhere* and who try to invent argument to shown that he is super strong

i'm in this forum since more then 13 years , and i can tell you that i have never seen in my life a fanboy caractere as ignorant as for kisame

that's my opinion and my experience in this forum

Reactions: Like 2


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## FlamingRain (Sep 1, 2018)

Bonly said:


> Or what



It'll get around to bans at some point if editing/deleting the posts and giving warnings doesn't work.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> You yourself talk about the "intention of the author", you should understand perfectly what the Manga wants to say to us there.



That to me indicates near equality


FlamingRain said:


> Guys...please calm down.



I was told by mods that so long as I insult the posts and not the person it's fine.

Said he's a disgusting poster but as a person he's a great guy.

Meaning his posts disgust me.

Sorry, but you're out of line.

Unless "Jiraiya fan" hurts someone's feelings.

Are you suggesting they're Jiraiya haters?

Maybe start banning people who are outright trolling ( @Shazam @Isaiah13000 ) instead of complaining about the people who are getting frustrated by it




FlamingRain said:


> It'll get around to bans at some point if editing/deleting the posts and giving warnings doesn't work.



Already had a ban lifted before because I was insulting the posts and not the poster, but sure, try it again I'm sure it's gonna work out great


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Hazuki said:


> what's happen few chapter later



A few?!?!? You mean several hundred


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## Zero890 (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> That to me indicates near



Deidara literally states that he is weaker than Sasori however nobody has said that Sasori is >>>>> Deidara, only that he is stronger.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> I was told by mods that so long as I insult the posts and not the person it's fine.
> 
> Said he's a disgusting poster but as a person he's a great guy.
> 
> ...



Which is true. However, right there you said _"you are a"_, not _"your posts are"_, so even though it was over his posts it was directed at him. I didn't threaten to ban you over that, though. I just asked you three to calm down because this sort of thing clearly has a tendency to escalate and I don't want it to.

What I said to Bonly isn't directed only at you either.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Sep 1, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> Which is true. However, right there you said _"you are a"_, not _"your posts are"_, so even though it was over his posts it was directed at him. I didn't threaten to ban you over that, though. I just asked you three to calm down because this sort of thing clearly has a tendency to escalate and I don't want it to.
> 
> What I said to Bonly isn't directed only at you either.



Would it be the end of the world if things were to _escalate_?

I think those of us who can keep their emotional temperament within a harmonious manner shouldn't be punished while others throw eggs.


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## King1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Hazuki said:


> it's been more that 13 years i 'm in that forum and i can assure you  that kisame was always  a medium akatsuki level who did quite well against bee just because he is jinchuriki hunter and because he use bee friend
> 
> kisame is part of weak akatsuki
> in akatsuki there is 2 member duo : the strongest who give order and the weakest of obei
> ...


I understand where you are coming from, Some kisame fans have gone too far in placing him on a pedestal he does not belong and matching him against opponents way beyond his level and i don't support that and will condone that if i see it

But Jiraiya fans have upgraded to a whole new level of wanking and overrating, to the extent that they stoop so low to use statements to justify their arguments to the extent that they can no longer debate objectively for the man which is quite troublesome. 

Though am not saying all jiraiya fans are wankers or anything but a selective few  are giving jiraiya fans a bad name. Check out all the threads in which jiraiya is against anyone and see if any of his fans put up an objective argument for him. In fact the sannins fans are worse tbh but that's a whole new problem mostly with tsunade but at least their numbers are not as much as jiraiya fans


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## Architect (Sep 1, 2018)

WD+DKD GG


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## Leaf Hurricane (Sep 1, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're right, its almost like some think Kisame has the reflexes of a Juubi Jinchuriki Madara.


And bijuu level physical strength mate...


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## FlamingRain (Sep 1, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> Would it be the end of the world if things were to _escalate_?
> 
> I think those of us who can keep their emotional temperament within a harmonious demeanour shouldn't be punished while others throw eggs.



If it escalated then that means it wasn't kept within a harmonious demeanor...

Either way, don't wanna litter the thread with this anymore so you can just message me if you have anything else to ask.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> Which is true. However, right there you said _"you are a"_, not _"your posts are"_



I literally said he's probably a great person on a personal level. 

It's obvious what I meant.



FlamingRain said:


> so even though it was over his posts it was directed at him.



Which is allowed.

I'm allowed to insult his arguments all the live long day, but I do see the point youre making, and how you might wrongly interpret my statement.



FlamingRain said:


> I just asked you three to calm down because this sort of thing clearly has a tendency to escalate and I don't want it to.



Maybe start banning trolls, so things never get like this.

There's clearly more hostility in the NBD nowadays, and honestly it's Jiraiya wank that frustrates a lot of us posters because we can't get through to them no matter how much logic is used.

Maybe look into the source of our irritation, rather than just the irritation itself, solve the problem don't just put a band-aid on it. 

Everyone nowadays is more prone to hostility and I've been around more than some posters who've been around longer than me, I'm well aware of the reasoning

Telling us to calm down while others provoke us while you guys have their back is fucking infuriating.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> ...



As I said while you were posting, I don't want to litter DaVizWiz's thread with this so we can just start a conversation or something.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 1, 2018)

Architect said:


> WD+DKD GG


As if he could use both at the same time lol.


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## Shazam (Sep 1, 2018)

No matter what arguments are made against Kisame. This thread was made to outright deny everything in the first place, to the point where citing manga direct comparison statements are no longer valid. 

There is no win here.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 1, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> As if he could use both at the same time lol.



So I'm not the only one who doubts it!



Shazam said:


> No matter what arguments are made against Kisame. This thread was made to outright deny everything in the first place, to the point where citing manga direct comparison statements are no longer valid.



I think Jiraiya would win but to be fair Kisame didn't say "even with these restrictions I couldn't take him on", he just admitted he couldn't take him on. Manga Jiraiya isn't limited like the Jiraiya in this thread is.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Shazam said:


> No matter what arguments are made against Kisame. This thread was made to outright deny everything in the first place, to the point where citing manga direct comparison statements are no longer valid.
> 
> There is no win here.



World's already addressed this

Later statements and feats contradict this.

You can't just ignore them, yet there.you are doing exactly that


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## Zero890 (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> and honestly it's Jiraiya wank that frustrates a lot of us posters because we can't get through to them no matter how much logic is used.



It's funny Troyse, those posters that "want to get trought" usually debate inciting the Jman fans to get angry.

@ziggystardust He can not comment without saying that Jiraiya's Jutsus are trash and his feats are shit.

@King1 can not comment on a thread about Jman without saying something bad about his fans.

You are not different, if someone says that Kisame loses to Jiraya, you get really upset.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Sep 1, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> So I'm not the only one who doubts it!
> 
> 
> 
> I think Jiraiya would win but to be fair Kisame didn't say "even with these restrictions I couldn't take him on", he just admitted he couldn't take him on. Manga Jiraiya isn't limited like the Jiraiya in this thread is.



Of course however the statement was made prior to any knowledge given about Sage Mode. He personally designated himself below the Sannin. 

Kishi made it apparent that we need to view the Sannin above him. 

Why is that an issue with some is beyond me. 

This is a perfect example of NBD trying to override canon material


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## King1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> @King1 can not comment on a thread about Jman without saying something bad about his fans.


Ah well do forgive me for my actions, it was not my intention to anger jman fans ( I actually like the guy ).

I tend to let out my frustrations some times when people find it hard to see reason even when proven wrong 

But you do know that your friends in the jman camp tend to wank jiraiya ( you included ) right?


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## Architect (Sep 1, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> As if he could use both at the same time lol.


why wouldn't he?


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## Shazam (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> World's already addressed this
> 
> Later statements and feats contradict this.
> 
> You can't just ignore them, yet there.you are doing exactly that



Show me 1 scan... Of a statement that contradicts Kisame's statement. 

Kisame made a literal direct comparison statement to Jiraiya.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> @ziggystardust He can not comment without saying that Jiraiya's Jutsus are trash and his feats are shit



Well it depends who ur comparing him to.

Hashiramas feats are shit to Adult Narutos for example



Zero890 said:


> @King1 can not comment on a thread about Jman without saying something bad about his fans.



Because Jiraiya fans in the NBD are a source of frustration. I'm not saying I agree nor disagree with him

Let's just say I'd like to meet a Jiraiya fan who looks at updated information.



Zero890 said:


> You are not different, if someone says that Kisame loses to Jiraya, you get really upset



Because the reasoning is stupid as fuck

"Jiraiya wins because Kisame admitted inferiority"

Using only that statement
Feats are not allowed and do not count for him, only Jiraiya
Statements about Kisame do not matter

See what I mean? Theres a reason I get annoyed, be fair when debating for these two goddamnit. That's the problem, Jiraiya fans in the NBD are absurdly biased in his favor, even going out of their way and saying shit like "feats are subjective"

I'm perfectly fair, and don't say I'm not

I've gone through each of their abilities, how either responds to the other and such, you nor any other Jiraiya fan do this

That's not an insult, it's just a fact, don't go around saying Jiraiya fan is an insult. Were all fans of our favs

Dishonest presentation of information.

Doton>Suiton is regularly stated, yet they don't consider their actual abilties. Elemental wheel only goes so far

In the swamp Kisame dillutes it with Suiton, that's all their is to it...or he absorbs it

Suiton>Katon is also TOTALLY IGNORED by the Jiraiya fanbase here.

Chakra absorption is downplayed to hell and back, what's stopping Kisame from draining Jiraiya in a single hit exactly? Does he have more chakra than a V2 Gyuki cloak? If he does it's not but much 

Kisame would by all information available drain Jiraiya in one or two CQC clashes

There is no way for Jiraiya to win, and that statement is just a copout argument because even Jiraiya fans know he doesn't have an actual answer for anything Kisame has to bring to the table.

You present me a real argument, here and now, I will address it point by fucking point.


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## Bonly (Sep 1, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> It'll get around to bans at some point if editing/deleting the posts and giving warnings doesn't work.



I doubt it, it's been like this for months.


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## Blaze Release (Sep 1, 2018)

The very idea that Jiraiya is beating somebody of Kisame's calibre in base form with low diff is hilarious.
I tend to brush aside those that imply he would've been turned to toad shit in part 1 but for Itachi.

Anyway since it's usually mentioned that Kisame admitting inferiority by placing the sannin title above the 7 swordsmen (ignoring Kisame's character as a person who tends to go off hype/rep/title to judge potential opponents that he knows very little of their abilities) does this then translate to deidara and sasori both willing to fight orochimaru as them admitting superiority to a fellow sannin?

Anyway a fight between base jiraiya and Kisame can go either way imo and whoever takes it will take it with high diff.
This is basically a ninjutsu slugfest with jiraiya having the advantage with versatility and overall slightly superior ninjutsu arsenal. I'd favour jiraiya to win 6/10 times high diff.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Show me 1 scan... Of a statement that contradicts Kisame's statement.
> 
> Kisame made a literal direct comparison statement to Jiraiya.



Jesus...

Kisame to Itachi in Akatsuki Hiden

"Im proud to be your partner, the genius of the Uchiha. On the day you betray the Akatsuki, I will be entrusted with being a great step for that genius...."

Would a man who still considers himself far inferior to the Sannin and Itachi describe himself as a great step for Itachi? I think not 

Yamato on Kisames death

"I can't believe Kisame Hoshigaki, the monster of the mist and the man *powerful enough to be Itachis partner* would die like this"

The P1 statement has long been retconned, get over it.

Don't even get why Jiraiya fans don't like that he's only mid Akatsuki level, being comparable to the mid tiers is impressive, considering they, as a group were portrayed as a world changing threat.

It's not like Jiraiya is weak.


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## Shazam (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Jesus...
> 
> Kisame to Itachi in Akatsuki Hiden
> 
> ...



That in no way shape or form implicates the Sannin. 

The statement still stands. All the fanboys in the world won't change that. 

Let it go. Kisame is not that strong.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Blaze Release said:


> with jiraiya having the advantage



Based on what

Suiton>Swamp
Suiton>Katon
Kisames chakra>Jiraiyas
Samehada>Ninjutsu .......



Blaze Release said:


> versatility



Like what?

His hair jutsu which Kisame absorbs or counters?

His Katon, which Kisame absorbs or counters with Suiton?



Blaze Release said:


> overall slightly superior ninjutsu arsenal




Unsupported by the manga


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Shazam said:


> That in no way shape or form implicates the Sannin.
> 
> The statement still stands. All the fanboys in the world won't change that.
> 
> Let it go. Kisame is not that strong.




See what I mean @FlamingRain 
It's this kinda shit...

Reactions: Like 1


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## hbcaptain (Sep 1, 2018)

Architect said:


> why wouldn't he?


Just one of this two techniques require tons of effort, therefore using both simultaneously is not possible.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Sep 1, 2018)

The Kisame statement was specifically retconned when Tsunade nearly lost to Kabuto. 

Character statements are not a fact of canon


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> Just one of this two techniques require tons of effort



Baseless.

Each require only one handseal

If it were dozens of handseals and ate up all of his chakra then you'd have a point 

But it doesn't, therefore you don't have a point.

Kisame while having only Bees Base reserves managed to pull off

1. A huge Suiton missile to fly himself off of turtle island
2. 1000 feeding sharks
3. Daikodan 

Yet on his full reserves, described as larger than Nagatos by Nagato himself, you're telling me he can't WD and Daikodan?

Bull.shit.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> Character statements are not a fact of canon



They are, so long as later information (statements, feats, hype) don't contradict it.

In Kisames case, later feats, hype and statements make his P1 statement retconnex


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## Shazam (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> See what I mean @FlamingRain
> It's this kinda shit...



Trying to force random statements to imply what you want them so desperately to imply is a terrible way to debate. 

"good enough to be Itachis partner "

What the hell is that supposed to mean to the Sannin?


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## Shazam (Sep 1, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> The Kisame statement was specifically retconned when Tsunade nearly lost to Kabuto.
> 
> Character statements are not a fact of canon



Rusty Tsuande that was made apparent that she was not at full strength. How is that not completely obvious?

Unless you now want to say p1 Kakashi > Sannin as well


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## Braiyan (Sep 1, 2018)

Adding on to this point, this is one of the things I love about character statements, because it could also be interpreted that Deidara was lying/insincere. He could have been downplaying himself just so that Naruto and Kakashi would split up. He and everyone else there could see Naruto was pissed off, more liable to make rash decisions, and was going to chase after him regardless of if he had backup. So why not convince Kakashi, who is hyped by everyone, to go and support Chiyo and Sakura against his supposedly more dangerous partner, whilst he captures 2 jinchurikis in a week?  

If Deidara had succeeded, that would probably have been Naruto's downfall since he was less skilled at aerial combat than Deidara was. We also know from earlier chapters that Deidara was interested in capturing Naruto as well, and took advantage of the situation to do just that. That's why we see Deidara arguing with Sasori about capturing Naruto beforehand. That's why he took Gaara's body as bait, and also why he expresses regret when Kakashi chose to tag along with Naruto. 

TL, DR: The point of Deidara's statement was not to make a serious power level comparison between him and Sasori, but to make sure Naruto came after him alone. I doubt Deidara himself knows who's more powerful between the two of them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Sep 1, 2018)

This manga isnt deep and meant to be picked apart like what is trying to be forced here. It's meant for young teens.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Trying to force random statements to imply what you want them so desperately to imply is a terrible way to debate.
> 
> "good enough to be Itachis partner "
> 
> What the hell is that supposed to mean to the Sannin?



Because by feats and statements.post P1, Itachi is massively ahead of the Sannin

The fact that Kisame is compared to Itachi, and actually a threat to him means Kisame is ahead of the Sannin


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Shazam said:


> This manga isnt deep and meant to be picked apart like what is trying to be forced here. It's meant for young teens.



Concession accepted.


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## Shazam (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Concession accepted.



Cool.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

C'mon @Zero890 I just took one Jiraiya fan down, let me take you down now.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Sep 1, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Rusty Tsuande that was made apparent that she was not at full strength. How is that not completely obvious?
> 
> Unless you now want to say p1 Kakashi > Sannin as well



That's not the point, Kisame based his odds off the namesake _Sannin. _It had nothing to do with an in-depth analysis of Jiraya.


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## Shazam (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Because by feats and statements.post P1, Itachi is massively ahead of the Sannin
> 
> The fact that Kisame is compared to Itachi, and actually a threat to him means Kisame is ahead of the Sannin



He was never compared to Itachi. Just good enough to be his partner doesn't even mean anything.  And it certainly doesn't mean anything to the Sannin. 

And every jman vs Itachi thread shows us that Itachi is not far it at all above Jman

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shazam (Sep 1, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> That's not the point, Kisame based his odds off the namesake _Sannin. _It had nothing to do with an in-depth analysis of Jiraya.



That "name sake" came with reputation and for a reason. 

You guys act as if the manga was a detailed thesis made to be picked apart and analysed. It's not.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Sep 1, 2018)

Shazam said:


> That "name sake" came with reputation and for a reason.



Ok, so you think that Kisame would lose to part one Tsuande then? He did state he was below the Sannin after all.



> You guys act as if the manga was a detailed thesis made to be picked apart and analysed. It's not.



Not a thesis, literature. And yes, all literature is there to be picked apart, analysed and conjectured upon. Part of the reason this forum exists is because of that fact.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 1, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> Just one of this two techniques require tons of effort, therefore using both simultaneously is not possible.



I don't know about _that_, but it seemed to me like Dai Bakusui Shōha turning into a giant dome was triggered by Kisame fusing with Samehada. When Kisame fuses with Samehada he develops webbing between his fingers. Daikōdan involves interlocking his fingers.

Kind of an issue, no?


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## Shazam (Sep 1, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> Ok, so you think that Kisame would lose to part one Tsuande then? He did state he was below the Sannin after all.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a thesis, literature. And yes, all literature is there to be picked apart, analysed and conjectured upon. Part of the reason this forum exists is because of that fact.



Ok. Part 1 Tsuande wasnt the Tsuande that the Raikage knew, and gained fame for her medical ninjutsu and battle prowess. And you know that. 

You guys can continue with the fanfic. Not going to waste my Saturday with people who literally want to ignore the manga in favor of NBD logic. Especially when college football is on TV


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Shazam said:


> He was never compared to Itachi. Just good enough to be his partner doesn't even mean anything.  And it certainly doesn't mean anything to the Sannin.
> 
> And every jman vs Itachi thread shows us that Itachi is not far it at all above Jman



So him thinking of himself as a threat to fucking ITACHI

Means NOTHING

Is that what ur saying?

The statements coexist and support each other.

Deal with it


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## Hazuki (Sep 1, 2018)

King1 said:


> I understand where you are coming from, Some kisame fans have gone too far in placing him on a pedestal he does not belong and matching him against opponents way beyond his level and i don't support that and will condone that if i see it
> 
> But Jiraiya fans have upgraded to a whole new level of wanking and overrating, to the extent that they stoop so low to use statements to justify their arguments to the extent that they can no longer debate objectively for the man which is quite troublesome.
> 
> Though am not saying all jiraiya fans are wankers or anything but a selective few  are giving jiraiya fans a bad name. Check out all the threads in which jiraiya is against anyone and see if any of his fans put up an objective argument for him. In fact the sannins fans are worse tbh but that's a whole new problem mostly with tsunade but at least their numbers are not as much as jiraiya fans



I understand what you are trying to say but can you give me a reason why someone would try to argue and debat a fight between 2 ninja if in the manga the result of the fight was already shown ?
why people don't often try to argue about sasori stronger than deidara ? because deidara admit his inferiority 2 times
why people don't often try to argue itachi stronger than oro ? because oro admit his inferiority 

however when kisame admit his inferiority to base jiraiya and few chapter later he almost died and was counting on itachi help , suddenly the guy must to explain and argue and proove that base jiraiya is really stronger  ? 
isn't not even evident ?

of course you can argue about how jiraiya would kill kisame but the result is the same 

all i see since 13 years old in this forum  is 
- pain the uzumaki ninja who mastered rinnegan who considered himseld as a god admit that jiraiya would have won if it wasn't for his aknoledge 
( we musn't forget that jiraiya one of the most peaceful ninja in the manga , and he was forced to fight his studiant who became evil  so an emotional fight for jiraiya who was wondering why he turn like this )
-he was ready to fight itachi and kisame and in the same time protecting naruto and sasuke ( extremly difficult )
-he one shot kisame if it wasn't for itachi strongest ninjutsu 
-he defeat easly konan with no intention to kill because she was her dear and kind studiant 
-he is on par on itachi level 
-he stop kyubi 4 without aknowledge and with no intention to hurt naruto 

all of those fact are* in the manga*
why do you always need to use argue if the manga already shown fact  ?

i'm one of those who believe that kishimoto use everything he had to kill jiraiya in the worst situation ever against pain with no akwloedge ( pain had intention killer and evil against a jiraiya peaceful who realise that his old studiant became akatsuki leader)

Of course people who are  saying  for example that jiraiya is stronger than obito because obito said that , it's just jokking that is just jokking , we know very well that jiraiya is on itachi level and is enough versatil and experimented to put down pain with full aknoledge only  he is far weaker than juubito 

same example for hashirama who said that itachi is a better ninja than himself , of course he was talking about values and principles

Of course for any caractere there are some fanboy who invent anything but seriously in my opinion i never seen anything out of logic about jiraiya exept that he can take on akatsuki by himself  witch is of course not true but the fact is that even his base form was enough to one shot kisame while he was protecting naruto in the same time if it wasn't for itachi ms 
and easely defeat konan who had the order to kill jiraiya 

in part 1 he was considered as a strong ninja enought to almost kill 2 akatsuki leader if it wasn't for itachi and his haxx ms justu
in part 2 he was considered as a strong ninja who could have beaten pain the rinnegan user leader of akatsuki that fough jiraiya in his own teritory with perfect coordination and with full intention killer 

so we can easely suppose that jiraiya is a serious threat

base jiraiya is very understimate , the only reason he use sage mod was because he was fighting a legendary super haxx rinnegan user ( a power that is far far far above anything he have seen and he knew very well that akatsuki member were S class level )

In my opinion , among akatsuki  only itachi, pain and obito would forced jiraiya to use is sennin mod 

i really like arging but if you know already the result of the fight , how can some one invent or interprete an new argue if the manga tell the contrary ?
*let's be clear , someone who need argument to understand what it is already shown or said in the manga  , that's mean he don't read the manga correcty and don't understand the context of each fight *

the best example is kimimaru who is so much strong for some people and already use argue like he  would have help orochimaru to kill sandaime if he wasn't healh
the context was orochimaru dreaming about taking kimimaru body for himself 
so anyone with *little logic *would understand that as soon as kimimaru would have been healh , then orochimaru would have taken his body for himself and would have been abble to kill sandaime with no much difficulties

what lots of people interprete is that kimimaru is kage level and would have help orochimaru to kill sandaime and then kimimaru became a kage level just like that 

it's totally false 

i'm here since long time in this forum and believe me , there is lots of people who don't read the manga correctly , they just forget the context 

( sorry it was a long message )

Reactions: Like 3


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## Ziggy Stardust (Sep 1, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Ok. Part 1 Tsuande wasnt the Tsuande that the Raikage knew, and gained fame for her medical ninjutsu and battle prowess. And you know that.
> 
> You guys can continue with the fanfic. Not going to waste my Saturday with people who literally want to ignore the manga in favor of NBD logic. Especially when college football is on TV



The nuggets of insight and wisdom you provide are always appreciated, have fun.


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## Architect (Sep 1, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> Just one of this two techniques require tons of effort, therefore using both simultaneously is not possible.


cool conjecture (no)


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## Ziggy Stardust (Sep 1, 2018)

Hazuki said:


> I understand what you are trying to say but can you give me a reason why someone would try to argue and debat a fight between 2 ninja if in the manga the result of the fight was already shown ?
> why people don't often try to argue about sasori stronger than deidara ? because deidara admit his inferiority 2 times
> why people don't often try to argue itachi stronger than oro ? because oro admit his inferiority
> 
> ...


​


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## Zero890 (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Well it depends who ur comparing him to.



He always does it, no matter who he faces.



Troyse22 said:


> Because Jiraiya fans in the NBD are a source of frustration. I'm not saying I agree nor disagree with him



Whatever they say, even if it is as objective as possible, they will consider it a Jman wank and they complain.



Troyse22 said:


> Because the reasoning is stupid as fuck
> 
> "Jiraiya wins because Kisame admitted inferiority"
> 
> ...



Those who give arguments are not only based on the statement and also take into account the Kisame's abilities. It is an opinion like any other. Nobody ignores either that Suiton> Katon.

Hell Troyse, you seriously said that Kisame can win against Nagato or Madara.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> He always does it, no matter who he faces.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What I said about Kisame Madara and Nagato is irrelevant.

Present me a REAL argument for Jiraiya beating Kisame, or admit he cant

Stop dodging the debate

@FlamingRain


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## Ziggy Stardust (Sep 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> He always does it, no matter who he faces.



That's bullshit. I know there are plenty of people Jiraya creams with his baseline arsenal. Just not those with any level of heightened senses or reactions. Say anyone above Kimmimaro's level.


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## Braiyan (Sep 1, 2018)

As for the matchup itself, Kisame wins. Being fused with Samehada and starting with a large water source is a greater advantage for him than Gamabunta is for Jiraiya. This means he can attack with ranged attacks from his position (1000 feeding sharks), extend his terrain advantage with the same technique his clone used against Team Gai, and use the water as a quick way to avoid attacks or as cover to ambush Jiraiya. Being able to absorb on contact means restraining techniques like Lion's Mane and Yomi Numa are useless. It also means CQC would probably be the end for both Gamabunta and Jiraiya. He can also win in a battle of attrition, since Jiraiya's summons would be on a timer. 

Therefore since Kisame can absorb or counter Jiraiya's ranged attacks in this location, he can potentially increase his terrain advantage, and can dominate in a CQC exchange, I see him winning this matchup more times than not.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zero890 (Sep 1, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> That's bullshit. I know there are plenty of people Jiraya creams with his baseline arsenal. Just not those with any level of heightened senses or reactions. Say anyone above Kimmimaro's level.



No, yoy downplay Jiraiya by saying that his Jutsus were dodged "with a Rank E Jutsu" and that's why it did not work with anyone ... however, he caught an Akatsuki with that.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> That's bullshit. I know there are plenty of people Jiraya creams with his baseline arsenal. Just not those with any level of heightened senses or reactions. Say anyone above Kimmimaro's level.



Base Jiraiya is taking the sound 5 at once no problem. He's a solid low kage in base.

And I'll gladly argue on Jiraiyas behalf against the sound 5


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> No, yoy downplay Jiraiya by saying that his Jutsus were dodged "with a Rank E Jutsu" and that's why it did not work with anyone ... however, he caught an Akatsuki with that.





Troyse22 said:


> Present me a REAL argument for Jiraiya beating Kisame, or admit he cant
> 
> Stop dodging the debate




Watch, you'll ignore me and keep saying the same thing in another thread

Fucking Christ and Flaming is scratching his head wondering why there's so much hostility between the other NBD posters and Jiraiya fans.

"Wow you guys don't like talking to trolling brick walls, YOU GET A BAN"


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## Zero890 (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> What I said about Kisame Madara and Nagato is irrelevant.
> 
> Present me a REAL argument for Jiraiya beating Kisame, or admit he cant
> 
> ...



Troyse I was not even debating about Kisame v Jiraiya 

I was referring to your usual complaint about the "Jman wank".


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## Zero890 (Sep 1, 2018)

I have not ignored you @Troyse22 I just answered that comment first.


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## Zero890 (Sep 1, 2018)

King1 said:


> Ah well do forgive me for my actions, it was not my intention to anger jman fans ( I actually like the guy ).
> 
> I tend to let out my frustrations some times when people find it hard to see reason even when proven wrong
> 
> But you do know that your friends in the jman camp tend to wank jiraiya ( you included ) right?



Jiraiya is overrated however you also have several posters that downplay him.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Kisame loses to Jiraya, you get really upset.





Zero890 said:


> Troyse I was not even debating about Kisame v Jiraiya
> 
> I was referring to your usual complaint about the "Jman wank".





Zero890 said:


> I have not ignored you @Troyse22 I just answered that comment first.




If I see you say Jiraiya beats Kisame in another thread, I will refer them to this, in which you backed down from a REAL debate about the two.

I'm glad you're on board with Kisame beating Jiraiya now though, that's two Sannin fans down in this thread

Just keep spamming your funny ratings @Isaiah13000 or do you wanna be taken down too?


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## King1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Hazuki said:


> why people don't often try to argue itachi stronger than oro ? because oro admit his inferiority


Because this statement have not been rectoned, we have seen all of itachi's abilities and orochimaru's abilities and they fought at their strongest ( orochimaru with his 8 headed snake and itachi with his susano ) and itachi won so the statement of orochimaru that he is inferior to itachi still holds substance


Hazuki said:


> however when kisame admit his inferiority to base jiraiya and few chapter later he almost died and was counting on itachi help , suddenly the guy must to explain and argue and proove that base jiraiya is really stronger ?
> isn't not even evident ?


When kisame said that statement, we didn't know all of his abilities likewise jiraiya and am sure as hell both of them don't know each others abilities. Kisame said that statement due to the reputable title jiraiya bears (Sannin ), which signifies power and respect so kisame assumed he was no match for him without knowing what jiraiya is capable of and whether he could beat him. Now we know all what they can do, we can say by analyzing their feats that if jiraiya fights kisame in base then he won't win him that easily ( assuming he can ) as it was implied in pt 1


Hazuki said:


> in part 1 he was considered as a strong ninja enought to almost kill 2 akatsuki leader if it wasn't for itachi and his haxx ms justu
> in part 2 he was considered as a strong ninja who could have beaten pain the rinnegan user leader of akatsuki that fough jiraiya in his own teritory with perfect coordination and with full intention killer
> 
> so we can easely suppose that jiraiya is a serious threat
> ...


Base jiraiya is not beating itachi and kisame, hell itachi can beat him alone in SM so that statement of jiraiya saying he can take them both is already futile because we know he can't


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## King1 (Sep 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Jiraiya is overrated however you also have several posters that downplay him.


Never argued otherwise, but most jman fans think if we don't raise jman to a pedestal he does not belong then we are downplaying him


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Just keep spamming your funny ratings @Isaiah13000 or do you wanna *be taken down too?*


Are you threatening me?


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## Zero890 (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> If I see you say Jiraiya beats Kisame in another thread, I will refer them to this, in which you backed down from a REAL debate about the two.
> 
> I'm glad you're on board with Kisame beating Jiraiya now though, that's two Sannin fans down in this thread



I have never referred to this specific debate, please do not come here saying you won when there was not even a debate on that to begin with.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> I have never referred to this specific debate, please do not come here saying you won when there was not even a debate on that to begin with.



Concession accepted.


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## Zero890 (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Concession accepted.



Whatever makes you happy.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Are you threatening me?




Taken down in a debate


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Taken down in a debate


I don't mean to sound condescending but I don't really have any interest in having a serious debate with you involving the Sannin or Kisame. But I appreciate the offer anyways.


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## NamesClassified (Sep 1, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Jiraiya and Gamabunta will open up with *Toad Oil Flame Bullet*, and Kisame would counter with Great Shark Bullet: Forcing Jiraiya and Gamabunta to avoid it by leaping over it.


Can he not just stand there and absorb it? Besides it won't be a walk in the park for Gamabuta evading technique comparable to the.


Isaiah13000 said:


> it'd make the most sense for Jiraiya to then use *Wild Lion's Mane* and for Gamabunta to simply rely on his sword so that the two of them can overpower Kisame in CQC and defeat him.


The chakra that makes Lion Mane comparable to steel will likely get absorbed before it even makes contact  with the Shark Man.

I'm also hard pressed to believe Gamubunta will be overpowering Kisame in close quater's when he failed to even tag Deva Path while working in unison with .


Isaiah13000 said:


> Either way, if Kisame engages in CQC he'd lose, as Gamabunta's sword is sharp enough to slice off Shukaku's arm, so it'd definitely kill Kisame. Whilst Jiraiya's Wild's Lion Mane could quickly shatter and kill a rather large crab, so I'd lean more towards it overpowering Kisame as well. So together, with them attacking Kisame in unison, I don't see how he'd evade or survive. So Kisame would lose in CQC and in a battle of ninjutsu, so it's only a matter of time before Jiraiya puts him down.


Why would Kisame opt charge a Boss Summon head on like a moron instead of just strafing around the the Boss summons  attacks to absorb it's base chakra?


Isaiah13000 said:


> Whilst Jiraiya's Wild's Lion Mane could quickly shatter and kill a rather large crab, so I'd lean more towards it overpowering Kisame as well.


After that, I assume the fight will simply be Kisame trying to come up with defenses to keep Jiraiya and Gamabunta away from him
[/QUOTE]
Would it not be the opposite? Kisame can nullify the bulk if not all of the Sanin's arsenal, while Kisame is free to bombard him and the toad with massive .


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> So what? Naruto does not have Shim and Fukasaku on his shoulders as opposed to Jiraiya


Doesnt fucking matter they were present along with the entire fucking Bunta Brigade against a nerfed Pain and Naruto had every advantage under the sun INCLUDING BEING JMANS SUPERIOR and he STILL still got embarrassed

This is a nonargument

Pain > Jman because Pain > Jmans better

And you come in here spouting nonsense where people examine noncommittal statements when compared to feats and character matchups and having the gall to meme about it?

Spare me 


Zero890 said:


> Pain already had knowledge about Genjutsu


And Naruto had knowledge on FUCKING EVERYTHING ABOUT PAIN and had the advantage of taking him on in a weakened state when Pain was ACTIVELY AVOIDING KILLING HIS ASS and Naruto STILL LOST

Seems pretty fucking fair if you ask me

Add to that knowledge of the genjutsu is irrelevant,  and that was quite some time before it took effect...Had deva been present in that hallway when he made that deduction...Whether he knew exactly how powerful Frog Song was or not,  Frog song occurring against a fully assembled Pain, or even a LONE DEVA, is a fantasy.* As per canon* as you guys love to fucking say.

Anyway

This is off topic


Zero890 said:


> Nor is there anything to deny that Sasori is stronger than Deidara


Minus the fact his statement isnt concrete to fucking begin with AND Deidara has WAY BETTER FEATS AND IS A BAD MATCHUP ANYWAY but sure.

Keep ignoring that.

ALSO, for teh UMPTEENTH FUCKING TIME NOW, a shinobi can have higher GENERAL portrayal than their peer all they fucking want and still lose from a 1v1 standpoint. Thats how matchups work.

Jesus you guys really arent capable of retaining information and love ad nauseam dont you?


Zero890 said:


> it is absurd to say that "Deidara has better feats" or whatever because we never saw them face each other


Asinine argument 

We have never seen fucking Sasori fight Kagua in battle either so is it "absurd" to say Kaguyas feats are better 

Gtfo with this  

Better feats are better goddamn feats no matter who Deidara faced when he demonstarted them.

Throwing all of that out the window because of a statement where he says "FUCKING PROBABLY" just proves you arent worth talking to in a debating manner.


Not that this is new behavior. You do the same damn thing for Jman vs Pain.

Get this through your head bud...FEATS. TRUMP. STATEMENTS. IN EVERY DEBATING ENVIRONMENT EVER.

ESPECIALLY noncommittal statements.


Zero890 said:


> Do not come with that shit from a specific scenario


I didnt

The other guy did

All i did was quote him

Get your facts straight if youre going to attempt (key word here) to debate me


Zero890 said:


> you have specifically said that Deidara wins in neutral conditions.


I have and i do still yes

Because once Deidara gets into the air, which he managed against a MUCH faster opponent than Sasori on TWO SEPARATE OCCASIONS (Gaara and Hebi) there is NOTHING Sasori can do.

And if there was, youd have pushed it by now instead of hiding behind these adorable smokescreen arguments that make it pretty obvious you dont know what youre talking about. Cuz if you DID have any evidence aside from IGNORING ALL OF TEH CONFLICTING PARTS THAT IS, youd have shown it by now, instead of hiding behind a statement with 0 substances backed by nothing.

Yet here we are

How telling


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 1, 2018)

Shazam said:


> We literally have a Kisame statement placing him below the Sannin
> 
> Yet NBD apparently takes a subjective stance that it was retconned.... Despite not being able to provide a contradicting statement to the latter.  Just personal observation.
> 
> ...


So you decline debating the topic then?


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 1, 2018)

Shazam said:


> No matter what arguments are made against Kisame. This thread was made to outright deny everything in the first place, to the point where citing manga direct comparison statements are no longer valid.
> 
> There is no win here.


Citing a manga comparison is completely fine and no one in here is arguing otherwise

Its just ridiculous the way you and other Jman supporters act like literally nothing they say or cite is subject to any amount of scrutiny or examination under the premise of "hurr manga words lel"

Even when showing ADDITIONAL "manga words" you guys still wont admit that maybe your evidence isnt nearly as airtight as you think it is.

Thats a very dumb stance to have on anything tbqh 


Shazam said:


> This manga isnt deep and meant to be picked apart like what is trying to be forced here


Basically "leave me and my safe space alone i dont care for your examination of my logic or evidence by you challenging it with your own"

Its called "debating" kids


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## Speedyamell (Sep 1, 2018)

Just realised i didn't really reply to the topic.

Well. for one:


Thats one thing.
Jiraiya could ruin kisame's world with yomi numa.
Thousand feeding sharks could literally get neg'd by gamabunta's fart. As is any other suiton tech. The greater ones are dodged with utmost ease.
He dies if he attempts to engage jiraiya on land faster than gai shit diff'd him.
No sannin is going to go full power facing his likes.
Jman thought sage mode necessary when he faced the rinnegan,
Oro thought yamata necessary when he faced itachi,
And tsunade only used strength of a hundred seal with madara as her opponent,
All of whom make kisame look like dog shit.

Make a thread with kisame vs kakuzu/deidara and the other people on his level and then we can talk.


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## JuicyG (Sep 1, 2018)

This thread has become a combination of Kisame high-balling & Sannin downplay

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zero890 (Sep 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Doesnt fucking matter they were present along with the entire fucking Bunta Brigade against a nerfed Pain and Naruto had every advantage under the sun INCLUDING BEING JMANS SUPERIOR and he STILL still got embarrassed
> 
> This is a nonargument
> 
> ...



You will have to understand that Jiraiya has factors that Naruto does not have, Infinite SM and Shim and Fukasaku on his shoulders.

repeat what you want, Pain gives a fairly clear statement about the combat.



WorldsStrongest said:


> And Naruto had knowledge on FUCKING EVERYTHING ABOUT PAIN and had the advantage of taking him on in a weakened state when Pain was ACTIVELY AVOIDING KILLING HIS ASS and Naruto STILL LOST
> 
> Seems pretty fucking fair if you ask me
> 
> ...



Hell no, Pain is not going to kill any frog. IF THEY ARE STUCK on someone's shoulders, Naruto DID NOT HAVE THAT FOR HIS FAVOR.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Minus the fact his statement isnt concrete to fucking begin with AND Deidara has WAY BETTER FEATS AND IS A BAD MATCHUP ANYWAY but sure.
> 
> Keep ignoring that.
> 
> ...



The guy not only has a better general portrayal, Deidara also affirms who is stronger in a fight Kappa



WorldsStrongest said:


> I didnt
> 
> The other guy did
> 
> ...



It is irrelevant that you answered me with that specific scenario when you knew perfectly well that you said that Deidara won in neutral conditions.



WorldsStrongest said:


> I have and i do still yes
> 
> Because once Deidara gets into the air, which he managed against a MUCH faster opponent than Sasori on TWO SEPARATE OCCASIONS (Gaara and Hebi) there is NOTHING Sasori can do.
> 
> ...



I do not hide myself in any statement, on several occasions I debated this and said why I thought Sasori won ... however, we have a statement FROM THE SAME DEIDARA affirming inferiority.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Zero890 (Sep 1, 2018)

Dislikes for everyone!


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 1, 2018)

I'm going to ask people to stop giving unsubstantiated opinions on the thread. 

I made it for the purpose of *debating *the match up, not to just post your opinion.


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 1, 2018)

This kid is a fucking certifiable troll i swear to god

He CANNOT be this dishonest and blind



Zero890 said:


> You will have to understand that Jiraiya has factors that Naruto does not have


Naruto.
Had.
Everything.
Jman.
Did.
And.
More.
And.
Still.
Lost.
Against.
A weaker.
Damn.
Pain.
Despite.
Being.
Better.
Than.
Jman.




Zero890 said:


> Infinite SM


SM timer or a battle of attrition were NOT the reasons Naruto lost NOR will they be the reason Jman wins

Pull your head out of your ass (or Jmans crotch...Either or) and accept that please


Zero890 said:


> repeat what you want, Pain gives a fairly clear statement about the combat.


No he fucking didnt you delusional person

Ironically, Pain ALSO says "PROBABLY"

ANd ironically, His later feats ALSO shit on Jmans OR Narutos who is JMANS BETTER.

So once again, get fucking slapped with Feats>Statements in credibility and take a seat


Zero890 said:


> Hell no, Pain is not going to kill any frog. IF THEY ARE STUCK on someone's shoulders


This is an asinine point

They are literally just sat on his damn shoulders

Not that it matters anwyay...They could be fucking super glued to Jmans nutsack and it doesnt matter...Pain just BTs Jman entirely and the song gets negged just as easily.

Moot point.


Zero890 said:


> The guy not only has a better general portrayal, Deidara also affirms who is stronger in a fight Kappa


Oh my god youre insufferable

Look up what the word "probably" means

Until then, im not debating your ignorant logic any further


Zero890 said:


> It is irrelevant that you answered me with that specific scenario when you knew perfectly well that you said that Deidara won in neutral conditions.


Thisis stupid

As i said, it wasnt my specific scenario

It was someone elses


Zero890 said:


> I do not hide myself in any statement


Are you fcuking kidding me 

Thats literally ALL youve done in this post is hide behind noncommittal statements and refuse any new evidence

How are you this dishonest? 

Literally all you know how to do is regurgitate your opinion while ignoring any additional evidence and hide behind statements

You are, point blank, a waste of time to debate with.


Zero890 said:


> on several occasions I debated this and said why I thought Sasori won


Tell me here and fucking now what Sasori does when Deidara gets in teh air

Tell me ONE WAY he can even TOUCH Deidara

Go on

Dazzle me

Right after you tell me what the word "probably" means in the english language


Zero890 said:


> however, we have a statement FROM THE SAME DEIDARA affirming inferiority.


Websters dictionary. "probably" Let me know when youve finished the assigned reading.

Till then thats the only response from me you will be getting.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 1, 2018)

>There are literally SEVERAL fucking posters in here arguing that Lions mane is doing anything against Kisamehada
>The same Kisamehada drained a V2 cloak from Gyuki in an instant on skin contact
>Those same posters have the fucking sack to claim the SANNIN Are being downplayed 

Amazed

Truly amazed

Reactions: Like 2


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## Speedyamell (Sep 1, 2018)

Manga/cannon:
>Has deidara(a prideful idiot) address sasori as his superior
>Has deidara(the same prideful idiot) blatantly imply sasori is the stronger of the two
>portrays sasori as someone that can solo villages & someone that took down the third kazekage
-chiyo who has squared of with hanzo of all people,still saw the third kazekage as undefeatable.​>some rando on NF: "deidara is greater than sasori cuz i say so. You're dum if you disagree"


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 1, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> Can he not just stand there and absorb it? Besides it won't be a walk in the park for Gamabuta evading technique comparable to the.


 No he can't, because Samehada was burned by Itachi's Great Fireball, which is significantly weaker than Toad Oil Flame Bullet. Something on that scale would roast Kisame and Samehada alive. As for Great Shark Bullet, I don't see why Gamabunta can't dodge it, the toads can cross enormous distances in a single leap as seen throughout the series. Great Shark Bullet can only go where there is water, so it's stuck on the ground and can probably only move so far from Kisame's initial position.


> The chakra that makes Lion Mane comparable to steel will likely get absorbed before it even makes contact  with the Shark Man.


 Nah, Samehada has only shown the ability to absorb internal chakra when it bites down on the target. So logically Kisame would probably have to bite it in order to do that and that would be an idiotic move: As Jiraiya can just have it turn into spikes and impale Kisame's mouth and head as he does that.



> I'm also hard pressed to believe Gamubunta will be overpowering Kisame in close quater's when he failed to even tag Deva Path while working in unison with .


 Why? The Deva Path has been shown to be more agile and faster than Kisame, so that comparison doesn't make sense.



> Why would Kisame opt charge a Boss Summon head on like a moron instead of just strafing around the the Boss summons  attacks to absorb it's base chakra?


 The point of my post was to illustrate how Jiraiya can counter what Kisame has and how I think the fight would play out, but I never said that Kisame would purposely charge and engage Gamabunta and Jiraiya in CQC. He wont be able to absorb Gamabunta's chakra either unless he bites him which would be a dumb move to attempt.


> Would it not be the opposite? Kisame can nullify the bulk if not all of the Sanin's arsenal, while Kisame is free to bombard him and the toad with massive .


Not really, Kisame isn't the Preta Path, his ability to absorb chakra is greatly exaggerated especially on this forum. He nor Samehada has shown the ability to absorb one's internal chakra under normal conditions, only when Samehada bit Killer B was it able to quickly drain him of his internal chakra. So unless Kisame bites someone (since he's fused with Samehada), he wont be absorbing very much at all because Jiraiya and Bunta dont wear cloaks of chakra.

He also can't absorb Jiraiya's Fire Release ninjutsu without getting burned or roasted alive as well since Killer B stated that Samehada was burnt by Itachi's Fireball. Kisame isn't free to bombard Jiraiya and Gamabunta at all either. Gamabunta can leap away from all of Kisame's attacks whilst bombarding Kisame with his Water Release: Gunshot water balls to counter Kisame's own Water Release ninjutsu. Or he and Jiraiya can use Toad Oil Flame Bullet to evaporate all of Kisame's (bar Great Shark Bullet depending on how they attack it) jutsu: Considering Asakujaku, which is regular flames, was capable of doing that so there's no doubt that Jiraiya and Bunta can do the same.


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## Zero890 (Sep 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> This kid is a fucking certifiable troll i swear to god
> 
> He CANNOT be this dishonest and blind



 Says the guy, dishonest who thinks that Nagato can react to V2 A4 with lack of feats, but Jiraiya is blitzed because he has LACK of feats.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Naruto.
> Had.
> Everything.
> Jman.
> ...



Oh God, understand at once, NARUTO DOES NOT HAVE THE SAME FACTORS AS JMAN HAD.



WorldsStrongest said:


> SM timer or a battle of attrition were NOT the reasons Naruto lost NOR will they be the reason Jman wins
> 
> Pull your head out of your ass (or Jmans crotch...Either or) and accept that please



How was not a factor? Why did he lose the SM? because it was not INFINITE.



WorldsStrongest said:


> No he fucking didnt you delusional person
> 
> Ironically, Pain ALSO says "PROBABLY"
> 
> ...



"Probably" IT IS ALMOST A 100% SAFE AFFIRMATION LOL. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> This is an asinine point
> 
> They are literally just sat on his damn shoulders
> 
> ...



Stuck to his shoulders MEANS THAT HE CAN NOT PULL THEM...

It does not matter if it attracts Jiraiya, he can still defend himself, he will NOT NEGGED FROG SONG... he can not even caught him when he did not have an arm.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Oh my god youre insufferable
> 
> Look up what the word "probably" means
> 
> Until then, im not debating your ignorant logic any further



Yes, I know what it means. It is an adverb of probability WHICH IS THE ONE THAT REPRESENTS MORE POSSIBILITY ... if Pain says that he probably would have lost the fight IS THAT THE PERCENTAGE OF WHAT HAD LOST HIM WAS HIGH OR HIGHER THAN HIS PROBABILITY OF WINNING IT.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Thisis stupid
> 
> As i said, it wasnt my specific scenario
> 
> It was someone elses



However, you think that even in a scenario without advantages for Deidara he could still win, therefore it is absurd that you even refer to that scenario when I did not.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Are you fcuking kidding me
> 
> Thats literally ALL youve done in this post is hide behind noncommittal statements and refuse any new evidence
> 
> ...



Then cry what you want, nothing will deny the Deidara's statement.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Tell me here and fucking now what Sasori does when Deidara gets in teh air
> 
> Tell me ONE WAY he can even TOUCH Deidara
> 
> ...



Ohh wait he can fly with Satetsu and have supersonic atacks 

Probably: It means that Sasori wins against Deidara.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Websters dictionary. "probably" Let me know when youve finished the assigned reading.
> 
> Till then thats the only response from me you will be getting.



This guy does not even know what that means.


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## Kisame (Sep 1, 2018)

Hazuki said:


> kisame said that he can't match jiraiya ( *even without knowing about sennin modr* )


Proof please.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

@WorldsStrongest you might not like me, but u gotta admit Ive never presented info as dishonestly as it's being presented rn

I have a new respect for you for debating with Zero, not that he debated, but just spewed the same argument that you shut down 3 times.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Something on that scale would roast Kisame and Samehada alive.



It took Yoton

But Jiraiyas Katon>Roshis Yoton now 

Aaaaaaand I'm done reading your post.


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> It took Yoton
> 
> But Jiraiyas Katon>Roshis Yoton now
> 
> Aaaaaaand I'm done reading your post.


Except we don't know how that fight played out so you can't say that for sure. For all we know Kisame could've meant that Roshi's Lava Release simply hard countered his Water Release, not that he made Samehada absorb it. It's also unlikely that even happened based on Samehada's reaction to Itachi's Fireball, so in the end there is no proof that Samehada can withstand that. Nice try though.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Except we don't know how that fight played out so you can't say that for sure



Yeah sure, Roshi didn't use RCM that whole fight, nor any of his other Yoton



Isaiah13000 said:


> For all we know Kisame could've meant that Roshi's Lava Release simply hard countered his Water Release, not that he made Samehada absorb it



?????



Isaiah13000 said:


> It's also unlikely that even happened based on Samehada's reaction to Itachi's Fireball



You mean that it didn't like it?

On panel it absorbed Katon, no difficulty absorbing was made evident

Someone not liking something =/= something being difficult for them


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## Zero890 (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> I have a new respect for you for debating with Zero, not that he debated, but just spewed the same argument that you shut down 3 times.



If it's against Jiraiya, obviously you would agree.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> If it's against Jiraiya, obviously you would agree.



You guys were discussing Sasori and Deidara

Stay mad kiddo.


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## Kisame (Sep 1, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> As if he could use both at the same time lol.


Why not?


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Shark said:


> Why not?



There's no reason he can't. It's OOC I agree, but it's doable.


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Yeah sure, Roshi didn't use RCM that whole fight, nor any of his other Yoton
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Killer B said Samehada was burned, and we've seen Samehada take damage while in the process of absorbing something before. So there's no reason to believe it could withstand Roshi's Lava Release. Like I said, Kisame could've just meant that it countered his Water Release ninjutsu.


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## Kisame (Sep 1, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Killer B said Samehada was burned


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## Troyse22 (Sep 1, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Killer B said Samehada was burned



No he didn't.


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> No he didn't.


 
The Viz is more official and reliable than whatever other translation you're using.


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## Zero890 (Sep 1, 2018)

@WorldsStrongest I have not seen a Poster so crybaby in this forum, spam dislikes and negged me four times at least


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## Kisame (Sep 1, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> The Viz is more official and reliable than whatever other translation you're using.


Do you have the raw?


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 1, 2018)

Annnnnnd more cancer


Zero890 said:


> Says the guy, dishonest who thinks that Nagato can react to V2 A4 with lack of feats


> Nagato senses and reacts to Amaterasu
> Keeping in mind this was a nerfed Edo Nagato whos abilities are below a living Prime Nagato
> Amaterasu has a straight up feat of being near V2 A in speed

Yeah its pretty clear Nagato has teh feats to AT LEAST MENTALLY react to V2 A

Now if you could kindly stop with this off topic strawmanning bullshit that youre hilariously wrong about anyway and kindly give me your operative definition of "probably" thatd be great.


Zero890 said:


> Oh God, understand at once, NARUTO DOES NOT HAVE THE SAME FACTORS AS JMAN HAD.


No Naruto had BETTER FUCKING FACTORS that your moronic point keeps ignoring

Thats my entire point.

Here ill fucking spoonfeed it to your blind ass

Naruto >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jman ( i used a fucking utterly wide gap for emphaisi on teh hopes it might FINALLY FUCKING CLICK in yoru brain that Jman is inferior...Again...EMPHASIS...Not teh actual gap)

Narutos scenario >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jmans scenario (ahgain, emphasis)

And Pain. Still. DEFEATED. NARUTO.

Meaning, hes defeating Jman as well

Not a hard concept

Pull your head out of Jmans crotch and accept this thanks


Zero890 said:


> How was not a factor?


Because the reason naruto lost had literally nothing to do with fucking NE timer

He got spanked for several other reasons

So...the reason that it wasnt a factor...Was because it wasnt a fucking factor. Naruto had his own method of bypassing it anyway.


Zero890 said:


> "Probably" IT IS ALMOST A 100% SAFE AFFIRMATION


Emphasis on "almost"


Zero890 said:


> Stuck to his shoulders MEANS THAT HE CAN NOT PULL THEM


Then he pulls Jman proper and they shut up just as fucking quickly

And id truly love to know on what basis is it imposibble for THE FUCKING RINNEGAN to separate a frog from Jmans shoulders.

Really would like to know what fanfiction.net post you scraped that gem out of.


Zero890 said:


> Yes, I know what it means


Clearly you dont or else we wouldnt be here


Zero890 said:


> However, you think that even in a scenario without advantages for Deidara he could still win


Yeah i do because Sasori cant do anything to a flying opponent nor does he have feats to suggest he can deal with Deidaras monumental DC advantage.


Zero890 said:


> Then cry what you want, nothing will deny the Deidara's statement.


Feats do kiddo

No matter how much you bitch about them or ignore them they exist

And are MORE CREDIBLE THAN A STATEMENT IS.

Especially where the word "probably" is concerned


Zero890 said:


> Ohh wait he can fly with Satetsu


Oh wait fanfic

You go ahead and post scans of him having flight anywhere near Deidaras level bud

Dazzle me


Zero890 said:


> have supersonic atacks


Good thing Deidara has Hypersonic speed and reactions to neg this shit with and has chapters and i mean CHAPTERS of him avoiding Gaaras attacks that are the EXACT same style as Sasoris just in a HIGHER FUCKING VIOLUME

So i ask fucking again, on what basis will Sasori do fucking ANYTHING to Deidara?


Zero890 said:


> This guy does not even know what that means.


Moronic tactic

" I know you are but what am i"

Gtfo


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> @WorldsStrongest I have not seen a Poster so crybaby in this forum, spam dislikes and negged me four times at least



Sad about your internet points? And IM the crybaby 

Negged you twice

It appears you either cannot count or enjoy making shit up.

Its IMPOSSIBLE for a single poster to rep another single user 4 times in a day. be it + or - rep

And im negging you because youre blind and dishonest troll who doesnt listen to a damn thing i say and knows how to do nothing but restate his own fucking opinions like they mean something despite being challenged by evidence.

And "spam dislikes" cute.

Not like im being hit with the same shit or anything pal

Its a mem at this point that teh Jman camp does nothing but ratings spam. Ask literally fucking anybody.


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 1, 2018)

Shark said:


> Do you have the raw?


Unfortunately I don't, it'd be nice if there was translator who did and could clear things up.


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## Mithos (Sep 1, 2018)

What's stopping Jiraiya from turning Kisame's man-made lakes (including the _Waterdome_) against Kisame by changing them into lakes of burning oil? Either that or Jiraiya simply evaporates the water with _Toad Oil Flamethrower_.

Up close, Jiraiya can feint Kisame and nail him with a _Rasengan _(Jiraiya was able to feint 3 Paths of Pain using techniques that don't require Sage Mode: _Toad Silhouette Technique_, _Swamp of the Underworld_, _Fire Release: Fire Ball_, and a _Shadow Clone_). Jiraiya should be able to overpower Kisame with _Wild Lion's Mane_, which ripped apart a giant crab, which by the looks of it should've been more powerful than the small toad that blocked Kisame's strike. Further, by changing shape _Wild Lion's Mane_ can be used as a guided projectile to snatch Kisame out of the air when forced to jump. Kisame can be crushed by _Food Cart Destroyer_, or dragged into the _Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison_.

Jiraiya's summons can be used to evade attacks, close the distance, or as distractions to set up openings. Whether it's close- or long-range combat, Jiraiya has the advantage.

Jiraiya wins, handily.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Sep 1, 2018)

Matto should honestly stick to arguing which statement makes which character better. His suggestions in terms of a feats basis are always a meme-worthy debacle.



Matto said:


> What's stopping Jiraiya from turning Kisame's man-made lakes against Kisame by changing them into lakes of burning oil?



Sure he can set fire to the water *on top of the lakes,* man-made or not. But who has better control of that burning water, Jiraya or Kisame? Who's more likely to get scolded by their own firey concoction if they ever attempt such a feat?



> including the _Waterdome_





Flames need oxygen to survive....



Matto said:


> Either that or Jiraiya simply evaporates the water with _Toad Oil Flamethrower_.



Given that he can't do this while inside the dome, for the reason above, and the _Water Style Great Water Shark_ should just absorb this up nicely and become even bigger, I'd say Jiraya has another lose-lose proposal on his hands, the same for any feature you mention here.



Matto said:


> Up close, Jiraiya can feint Kisame and nail him with a _Rasengan _(Jiraiya was able to feint 3 Paths of Pain using techniques that don't require Sage Mode: _Toad Silhouette Technique_, _Swamp of the Underworld_, _Fire Release: Fire Ball_, and a _Shadow Clone_). Jiraiya should be able to overpower Kisame with _Wild Lion's Mane_,



You should really read this thread before regurgitating an idea that's been repeated and shot down a thousand an one times. The Wilds Lion-Mane is necessitated by chakra infused to one's hair. Kisame can not only make it lifeless instantly but as it's attached to Jiraya, it might serve as a nice conductor to swallow up the chakra inside his body. Another lose-lose proposal.



Matto said:


> which ripped apart a giant crab which by the looks of it should've been more powerful than the small toad that blocked Kisame's strike.



_"By the looks of things".... _by the looks of things, I think Kisame is stronger than Jiraya, Gamabunta and Ma & Pa summoned to the same fight, that means he prevails right? As an aside, go ahead and tell me that strike meant for Naruto, and blocked by that toad was his full power blow?



> or dragged into the _Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison_.



If Jiraya thinks he can kill him in the Gourd, he's going to find his toad filled with an ocean of water



Matto said:


> Jiraiya's summons can be used to evade attacks, close the distance, or as distractions to set up openings. Whether it be close- or long-range combat, Jiraiya has the advantage.



Cute opinion matto. You've listed techniques once again with no real information processing skill to how they work in battle.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Sep 2, 2018)

Kisame easily.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 2, 2018)

Matto said:


> What's stopping Jiraiya from turning Kisame's man-made lakes (including the _Waterdome_) against Kisame by changing them into lakes of burning oil? Either that or Jiraiya simply evaporates the water with _Toad Oil Flamethrower_



Wow.

Just....wow


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 2, 2018)

I thought the entire premise of Nagato stating that Jiraiya could have won is basically him having more knowledge and managing to land Frog Song on all Paths instead of three Paths or Nagato himself without actually fighting him directly.

Three Paths had Jiraiya running and forced him to tactics like Frog Song. I suppose it's possible for Jiraiya to land Frog Song on Nagato in a scenario that isn't battle and more so one where Jiraiya is prepared or enters the battlefield unexpected, but there's no way he's landing that on Nagato or all Paths in any neutral scenario based on his feats against just three of them.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Sep 2, 2018)

Debating the specifics is rather redundant. Base Jiraiya already defeated Kisame with neg difficulty and Kisame admitted the gap between them was big enough that he can’t make a difference against Jiraiya.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Sep 2, 2018)

There no way in general that Jiraya can survive a Mano-E-Mano contest against six pains without having fully prepped frog song beforehand, yeah.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Sep 2, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Now these guys also want to deny that Sasori> Deidara


Yep. While Sannin fans focus on canon battles, statements,mans portrayal, the otherside does the exact opposite. They want to turn this place into a trash can where any of their garbage ideas about how strong their favorites should be can be collected.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Sep 2, 2018)

Jiraiyas Jutsu undeniably has less chakra than a V2 cloak, so logically Kisame can absorb them

Sannin wankers- "B....but Kisame said in P1!!!!!!!!"

"B....but those statements putting him on Itachis level don't count because Kisame said this in P1!!!!"

As if Kisame had in depth knowledge on Jiraiyas arsenal and wasn't just basing it off his P1 hype

Better hope I never become a mod, because I'd straighten this place out REAL quick


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## Ziggy Stardust (Sep 2, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Debating the specifics is rather redundant.



It's never redundant to debate the specifics, that's kind of... you know, what this entire forum is about. We're discussing a fictional work having thoroughly explored underpinnings of its fantasy-based lore, yet there's still room for plenty of interpretation. The specifics in this match-up are more advantageous than a tight space with no water. Had Jiraya not been able to take full advantage of the Toad Stomach, there isn't really a technique he can use to ensnare Kisame. On top of that, had Itachi not called him off then Kisame could have easily filled that toad stomach with water and fought Jman on advantageous ground.



> Kisame admitted the gap between them was big enough that he can’t make a difference against Jiraiya.



We don't have take him on his word the same way we don't have to take this dolt on his word.

*Link Removed*


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 2, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Jiraiyas Jutsu undeniably has less chakra than a V2 cloak, so logically Kisame can absorb them



What do you understand about Jiraiya's Sage Mode?



> Sannin wankers- "B....but Kisame said in P1!!!!!!!!"
> 
> "B....but those statements putting him on Itachis level don't count because Kisame said this in P1!!!!"
> 
> ...



Geez, someone would think you were touched by Sannin fans or something. 

But the reason the comments hold weight with Kisame is because unlike Itachi, Kisame had no reason to lie. There is no statements claiming Itachi = Kisame. Portrayal puts Itachi considerably above.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 2, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There is no statements claiming Itachi = Kisame. Portrayal puts Itachi considerably above



They're in this thread, read it, I'm tired of refuting the same argument multiple times in a single thread


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 2, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> They're in this thread, read it, I'm tired of refuting the same argument multiple times in a single thread



All I can see if you're reaching hard.


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## Zero890 (Sep 2, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> > Nagato senses and reacts to Amaterasu
> > Keeping in mind this was a nerfed Edo Nagato whos abilities are below a living Prime Nagato
> > Amaterasu has a straight up feat of being near V2 A in speed
> 
> ...



The fact is that he does NOT react to the attack, when he realized AMATERASU ALREADY WAS IN HIS BODY.

>Nerfed Nagato-> controlled by Kabuto, and Kabuto has better reactions than him 

>Amaterasu has a straight up feat of being near V2 A in speed-> He did not react to the pure speed of Amaterasu

The funny thing about this is that you say that Nagato can at least react mentally with his Sensing BUT SOMEONE WITH BETTER SENSING (NARUTO) IS BLITZED BY A4 AND HE HAS BETTER FEATS AS WELL 

Probably is-> Jiraiya can defeat Pain and Sasori can defeat Deidara.



WorldsStrongest said:


> No Naruto had BETTER FUCKING FACTORS that your moronic point keeps ignoring
> 
> Thats my entire point.
> 
> ...



"Defeat Naruto" BECAUSE HIS SAGE MODE DISAPPEARED.

And he could not achieve the Genjutsu BECAUSE PA WAS NOT IN HIS SHOULDERS. Jiraiya does not have those problems.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Because the reason naruto lost had literally nothing to do with fucking NE timer
> 
> He got spanked for several other reasons
> 
> So...the reason that it wasnt a factor...Was because it wasnt a fucking factor. Naruto had his own method of bypassing it anyway.



Base Naruto vs Pain-> Not a factor



WorldsStrongest said:


> Then he pulls Jman proper and they shut up just as fucking quickly
> 
> And id truly love to know on what basis is it imposibble for THE FUCKING RINNEGAN to separate a frog from Jmans shoulders.
> 
> Really would like to know what fanfiction



"The Rinnegan" it can hardly separate Kakashi from chains 

Hell, neither Ma nor Pa had any injuries to the Six Paths when they were on Jiraiya's shoulders in Amegakure.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Emphasis on "almost"



Losing is the greatest probability and that is what Pain and Deidara indicate.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Yeah i do because Sasori cant do anything to a flying opponent nor does he have feats to suggest he can deal with Deidaras monumental DC advantage.



DC does not even matter when he has a better defense than Gaara's...
And he can fly

"He cant do anything" is just a trash opinion because he can.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Feats do kiddo
> 
> No matter how much you bitch about them or ignore them they exist
> 
> ...



The feats also make Sasori stronger And the statement is an extreme addition because Deidara admits his inferiority.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Oh wait fanfic
> 
> You go ahead and post scans of him having flight anywhere near Deidaras level bud
> 
> Dazzle me



He can create Satetsu figures, make them elevate, but can not climb one of them and fly? Nice logic.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Good thing Deidara has Hypersonic speed and reactions to neg this shit with and has chapters and i mean CHAPTERS of him avoiding Gaaras attacks that are the EXACT same style as Sasoris just in a HIGHER FUCKING VIOLUME
> 
> So i ask fucking again, on what basis will Sasori do fucking ANYTHING to Deidara?



"avoiding Gaaras attacks" and he lost an armKappa

Sasori only needs a scratch and his sand can increase his speed with magnetic chakra.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Moronic tactic
> 
> " I know you are but what am i"
> 
> Gtfo

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 2, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Yep. While Sannin fans focus on canon battles, statements,mans portrayal, the otherside does the exact opposite. They want to turn this place into a trash can where any of their garbage ideas about how strong their favorites should be can be collected.


Still waiting for literally anyone to tell me how Sasori takes Deidara while flying considering Deidara spent several chapters embarrassing Desert Gaara who attacks in the EXACT same manner Satetsu does only in HIGHER QUANTITIES and with HIGHER SPEEDS

And why hes countering Deidaras flight without satetsu given he starts in fucking Hiruko which is HELLA limited

Or why Sasori can live a C3 or C2 spam 

Guess ill have to continue to wait considering all anyone here seems to be capable of doing is passive aggressively riding their high horse around the block unable to prove anything


Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Debating the specifics is rather redundant. Base Jiraiya already defeated Kisame with neg difficulty and Kisame admitted the gap between them was big enough that he can’t make a difference against Jiraiya.


And then went on to fight and hold his own against Killer Bee who shits on Jman in pretty well all ways one can

So again this is a Jman fan doing that thing where they found one single piece of evidence and then act like its gospel and cant be challenged by OTHER EVIDENCE thats JUST AS CREDIBLE...

"Debating" people...Its called "debating"

AND Jman is restricted here...

AND Kisame STARTS in his most powerful form...

AND they are fighting in a location where Kisame gets the advantage...

AND no one has proven why Jmans attacks wont be absorbed by V2 negging Kisamehada yet

The argument could be made if the dude was able to enter SM and thus NE was a factor, but as it stands now...Not so much.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Troyse22 (Sep 2, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> The argument could be made if the dude was able to enter SM and thus NE was a factor, but as it stands now...Not so much



Not at all.

SM is utilized by physical, mental and natural energy combining.

33.3333333333333% of each based on the graph provided by Fukasaku (the best sage in the manga)

This means at once Jiraiyas NE has to exceed Kisames chakra by 3x to turn him into a frog,

NE is no threat to Kisame short of BSM Naruto or Hashirama.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 2, 2018)

NE being no threat to Kisame.


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## Braiyan (Sep 2, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> It's never redundant to debate the specifics, that's kind of... you know, what this entire forum is about.



It's such an odd mindset to have. The OP expressly states he wants debate on how the fighters win/lose, yet people are acting like encouraging _actual_ debate on a hypothetical matchup (that's not a stomp in either direction) in a *battledome* thread is somehow sacrilegious.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Sep 2, 2018)

But seriously I was never of the opinion Kisame gets one shot. In this scenario Kisame has far more advantageous stipulations in his favour, and Op also restricted Jiraiya's strongest ability which what allows him to blow kisame completely out of the water. I'd say Jiriaya for sure has the potential to get SM in this scenario but as mentioned before its restricted so I'd say this match is a toss up imo.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Sep 2, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> NE being no threat to Kisame.



- Kisamehada absorbs some of Jman's Nature Energy
- Balances the energy with his massive Chakra
- Becomes the worlds very first Shark Sage

FUCK YEAH!

The ways in which this Shark Man has to humiliate the old pervert continually increase!

Sage Kisame Stomps.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 2, 2018)

ziggystardust said:


> - Kisamehada absorbs some of Jman's Nature Energy
> - Balances the energy with his massive Chakra
> - Becomes the worlds very first Shark Sage
> 
> ...



Kisame failed his training with the Shark Sages of Davy Jones' Locker.


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## Troyse22 (Sep 2, 2018)

@FlamingRain


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 2, 2018)

So one hand, we have the Sannin fans saying the Kisame and Itachi fans ignore the manga. On the other hand, we have Kisame and Itachi fans saying that Sannin fans ignore the manga.





DaVizWiz said:


> Basically a copy-cat of @Shark , but I'm not interested in difficulty, I'm only interested in how the losing shinobi dies as it appeared virtually no one stated how Jiraiya or Kisame would kill the other. I've created a specific simulation to materialize the best possible neutral condition battle between the two in my mind.
> 
> 
> *Exactly* *how* does Jiraiya kill Kisame?
> ...



Fused Kisame from the get-go. How can Jiraiya win without resorting to SM?

If Kashin Koji = Jiraiya, I can see Jiraiya winning. But, we can't use that argument.

Kisame wins, unless Jiraiya can summon the Ni Dai Sennin (not for SM purposes).

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 2, 2018)

Braiyan said:


> It's such an odd mindset to have. The OP expressly states he wants debate on how the fighters win/lose, yet people are acting like encouraging _actual_ debate on a hypothetical matchup (that's not a stomp in either direction) in a *battledome* thread is somehow sacrilegious.


Its a shame i can only rep 9 times a day


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## Mithos (Sep 2, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Still waiting for literally anyone to tell me how Sasori takes Deidara while flying considering Deidara spent several chapters embarrassing Desert Gaara who attacks in the EXACT same manner Satetsu does only in HIGHER QUANTITIES and with HIGHER SPEEDS
> 
> And why hes countering Deidaras flight without satetsu given he starts in fucking Hiruko which is HELLA limited
> 
> Or why Sasori can live a C3 or C2 spam



Gaara doesn't attack in the same manner Iron Sand does, though; Iron Sand can be molded into various projectiles and launched at high speeds. I don't know where you're getting the idea that Gaara's desert sand moves faster than attacks such as _Iron Sand Drizzle _or the Iron Sand spikes that were sent flying down from above Chiyo and Sakura.

Sasori can leave Hiruko whenever he wants, and he can summon the 3rd Kazekage puppet whenever he wants. If he's up against Deidara and needs to leave Hiruko, he'll do it. Sasori isn't restricted to fighting opponents in stages in the same way he approached fighting Sakura and Chiyo.

Iron Sand blocks Deidara's bombs. I don't know why you think Deidara wouldn't be shot out of the sky by Iron Sand, however. 

Feats aside - which already favor Sasori - Sasori canonically defeated and abducted a stronger Kazekage than the one Deidara beat.

For someone who preaches feats above all else, you could at least be try to be accurate with the feats you bring up. Deidara 'embarrassing' Gaara didn't happen (he had his arm crushed, almost ran out of clay, and won by forcing Gaara to shield the village). Gaara's sand being faster than Iron Sand is blatantly false. Gaara using his sand in the same manner as Iron Sand is wrong.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Sep 2, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Still waiting for literally anyone to tell me how Sasori takes Deidara while flying considering Deidara spent several chapters embarrassing Desert Gaara who attacks in the EXACT same manner Satetsu does only in HIGHER QUANTITIES and with HIGHER SPEEDS


And yet, 3rd Kazekage>Gaara was repeatedly stated, Sasori>3rd Kazekage, and Sasori with 3rd Kazekage>Sasori without him.

You know that the 3rd Kazekage’s sand, but choose to being disingenuous anyway so that you can feel like you are “winning” an online debate.



> And why hes countering Deidaras flight without satetsu given he starts in fucking Hiruko which is HELLA limited
> 
> Or why Sasori can live a C3 or C2 spam


We’ve never seen Sasori fight Deidara and haven’t seen 2/3rds of Sasori’s puppets. We don’t know what would definitively counter Deidara’s Jutsu, but it is canon that Sasori is his superior.

-The arrogant Deidara admitted inferiority

-The Akatsuki made Sasori his boss

-Sasori’s greatest feat of defeating the 3rd Kazekage is greater than Deidara’s if defeating Gaara

-Sasori defeated a nation while Deidara never accomplished anything on that level.

-Sasori has higher databook score

It’s direct canon that Sasori is Deidara’s superior. He would counter virtually anything Deidara could throw at him in a fight or defeat him before a dangerous Jutsu comes out.




> And then went on to fight and hold his own against Killer Bee who shits on Jman in pretty well all ways one can



Killer Bee without access to BM or his 5 of his swords, something you would normally point out but choose not to because Jiraiya fans put salt in your eyes and you would rather be disingenuous while trying to make a point.



> So again this is a Jman fan doing that thing where they found one single piece of evidence and then act like its gospel and cant be challenged by OTHER EVIDENCE thats JUST AS CREDIBLE...



Defeating somebody with one hit in base after that person admits not only inferiority, but being completely useless against him, is two indisputable pieces of evidence. This fight already happened and Kisame was negged by base Jiraiya while admitting he was useless.



> AND Jman is restricted here...
> 
> AND Kisame STARTS in his most powerful form...
> 
> ...



I’ll let you answer your own question.



WorldsStrongest said:


> I can see some scenarios where Jman wins tho, he still has Ma/Pa, and they have shown the ability to summon the Gama trio. A single boss summon pushes Kisame real hard, let alone one backed my ma or pa and Jman...Even a nerfed Jman.
> 
> Id say Jman here in all honesty.





WorldsStrongest said:


> Kisame has nothing in his kit to challenge a boss summon
> 
> Nothing
> 
> ...



But now you have changed your long held view in this thread because Jiraiya fans have made you sufficiently butthurt recently, so instead of taking a principled stance you change your view, play dumb, and act indignant that people disagree.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (Sep 2, 2018)

The Jiraiya supporters do a better job arguing for Sasori in a foreign matchup than they do here. Have you gentlemen really lost faith in your silver-haired pervert?


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## Serene Grace (Sep 2, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> And yet, 3rd Kazekage>Gaara was repeatedly stated, Sasori>3rd Kazekage, and Sasori with 3rd Kazekage>Sasori without him.
> 
> You know that the 3rd Kazekage’s sand, but choose to being disingenuous anyway so that you can feel like you are “winning” an online debate.
> 
> ...


expect a post with the word "fucking" being used atleast 30 times and "" or "" spam

Reactions: Like 2


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## Azula (Sep 9, 2018)

Jiraiya never has a problem getting around chakra absorption, he isn't like Mei who only spits pure ninjutsu.

Right from the beginning when a small summon completely blocks Samehada swing with a metal armor.
Toad stomach also isn't absorb-able as it's a summon.
All the Boss Toads use heavy weaponry, Giant Knife, Twin Swords and Shield-Staff. Any of these three will kill Kisame and Samehada on impact due to their giant size.
Jiraiya can also summon swords that are as big as Samehada which he used to drive through Pein's bodies.
Why do we need to discuss Kisame _not dying_ as if he is near immortal? He is not.

If Samehada is knocked out of his hands he can't heal and dies to ninjutsu.
If Samehada has not absorbed any or enough chakra to re-vitalise Kisame after the injury he dies to ninjutsu.
Even in merged form if the damage is too great, such as getting hit by a giant sword, he dies.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 9, 2018)

Azula said:


> Jiraiya never has a problem getting around chakra absorption, he isn't like Mei who only spits pure ninjutsu.
> 
> Right from the beginning when a small summon completely blocks Samehada swing with a metal armor.
> Toad stomach also isn't absorb-able as it's a summon.
> ...



Is Jiraiya going to hope Kisame underestimates him too?


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## Azula (Sep 9, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Is Jiraiya going to hope Kisame underestimates him too?



What is even your point.


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