# The Gaang vs The Red Lotus



## Ghazan (Aug 4, 2014)

*Rules:*
20 Feet Starting Distance
State of Mind: In Character
End of Season 3 Gaang
Current Red Lotus
No Avatar State
Aang can only airbend
No Bloodbending
Zuko gets his Swords
Battle here:
Crystal Catacombs



*Matchups;*
Aang vs Zaheer
Katara vs Ming-Hua
Toph vs Ghazan
Zuko vs P'Li


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## Rivers (Aug 4, 2014)

Im thinking Red Lotus having the edge here. 

P'Li can handle actual Dragon Fire and her Combustionbending can knock said Dragon out cold.

Lavabending is pretty OP so far as well, since he can manipulate earthbending thrown at him, but I doubt the Lava he's created can be controlled by another earthbender. Toph's earthsense can still be useful though not sure how accurate she could sense/predict Ghazan's movement if he surrounds the environment with lava.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 4, 2014)

Lavabending and Combustionbending? Shit I need to see season 3, I gave up after Season 2 of LOK


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## Roman (Aug 4, 2014)

Ghazan said:


> Aang vs Zaheer



Aang would take this one easily. In terms of feats, Aang demonstrated far more power than Zaheer who's only knocked over two or three benders at once while even from TLA book 1 Aang was able to create huge tornadoes and solidify lava.



Ghazan said:


> Katara vs Ming-Hua



Like Aang, Katara has displayed much more impressive feats than Ming-hua. However, in this instance I don't think there's any reason why Ming-hua shouldn't be able to replicate them herself. Based on her hype and what she's demonstrated so far, she should be at least equal to Katara.



Ghazan said:


> Toph vs Ghazan



Ghazan would take this. Toph's earth sense would come in handy, but Ghazan can create lava from the surface and that could throw her senses off, and Toph really has nothing to rely on against lava when Ghazan can just use whatever she throws at him against her like he did against Bolin.



Ghazan said:


> Zuko vs P'Li



What Rivers said.

So that's 1 for the Gaang, 2 for the Red Lotus and 1 toss-up. In a 4 on 4 starting with those match ups, once P'Li and Ghazan brutally annihilate defeat Zuko and Toph, it'll be pretty easy for them to assist Zaheer and Ming-hua and overtake Aang and Katara. SSBM already had Aang on the run in "The Beach" and P'Li has definitely demonstrated much better skill with combustion bending than he did, so she could give Aang a lot of trouble even on her own. And Katara could take Ming-Hua on her own, but I doubt she'd be able to take both her and Ghazan.


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## Rivers (Aug 4, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Lavabending and Combustionbending? Shit I need to see season 3,



And dont forget about the Dragon mount.


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## Expelsword (Aug 4, 2014)

The Gaang is in trouble here.
Aang being a legitimate Airbending master is all that saves them.


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## Ghazan (Aug 4, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Lavabending and Combustionbending? Shit I need to see season 3, I gave up after Season 2 of LOK



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoUV-xMnMa0[/YOUTUBE]

Dude makes lava pretty fast


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## Roman (Aug 4, 2014)

Expelsword said:


> The Gaang is in trouble here.
> Aang being a legitimate Airbending master is all that saves them.



It didn't help him much against Combustion Man, and P'Li is much better at combustion bending than he ever was. Add Ghazan's Lavabending and Ming Hua being comparable to Katara and even he wouldn't hold up.


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## Expelsword (Aug 4, 2014)

He beats Zaheer though.
The guy can't possibly be as good as Aang.


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## YoungChief (Aug 4, 2014)

Aang has too many feats to be beaten by the likes of Zaheer in an airbending battle. 

Katara has more impressive feats than Ming Hua, for now

Toph vs Lava guy, eh idk, Lava does seem pretty damn good. As Bolin said he was taking his own ammunition and using it against him, however in the location they're in she can use the crystals instead, I don't think it's so one-sided because of that. I hope old Toph shows up this season and whoops some ass

Zuko gets shit stomped unless he has the comet boost


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## Rivers (Aug 4, 2014)

YoungChief said:


> Katara has more impressive feats than Ming Hua, for now



The thing is though, down in the Catacombs she is limited to what she can do. When Katara was actually there, at best she launched a huge wave and used that Octopus Stance. 

Nothing I dont think Ming Hua cant handle.


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## YoungChief (Aug 4, 2014)

That may be, but Katara had Azula of all people dead to rights until Zuko saved her, in this same location


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## Amae (Aug 4, 2014)

And that's completely irrelevant.


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## Darth (Aug 4, 2014)

The amount of people underrating Toph in here is depressing. 

Toph is the greatest Earthbender in the world!

[YOUTUBE]w_Ko7VusR04[/YOUTUBE]


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## YoungChief (Aug 4, 2014)

Amae said:


> And that's completely irrelevant.



Beating Azula is irrelevant? Easily one of the most powerful benders from TLA? OK. Besides that, Katara does have better feats, Ming Hua is just anticipated to be on her level


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## Mider T (Aug 4, 2014)

Dat Lava isn't as hard to counter as you may believe.


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## Rivers (Aug 4, 2014)

YoungChief said:


> That may be, but Katara had Azula of all people dead to rights until Zuko saved her, in this same location



True, but with what move...water arms? 

So far Id say Katara has (shown) greater power in terms of the amount of water she can bend. 

But for the move that actually trumped Azula...wouldn't Ming-Hua's water arms be more proficient out of sheer necessity? Nevermind she has shown more feats with that style than Katara has...


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## Amae (Aug 4, 2014)

YoungChief said:


> -snip-


I was responding to Rivers while adding on to what you were saying.


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## YoungChief (Aug 4, 2014)

Amae said:


> I was responding to Rivers while adding on to what you were saying.



Oh, crap.

Sorry bout that then : <

@Rivers: I would agree that Ming Hua should be better at the water arms, Ming Hua doesn't seem to be about using large bodies of water, she tends to use concentrated attacks, even in the latest episode when they were near that river fighting she mainly used her arms.

Still, I think based on who Katara has contended with before, and her greater variety and number of feats, I'd pick her


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## Velocity (Aug 4, 2014)

Toph absolutely massacres Ghazan. The only person comparable to her when it came to Earthbending was Bumi and I think it's fair to say Ghazan hasn't shown himself to be on their level. Similarly, Ming-Hua needs to show a lot more skill in order for me to consider her Katara's equal. Zaheer obviously won't be a match for Aang, who not only has clearly better Airbending but held his own pretty damn well against a Sozin's Comet buffed Ozai. It probably would be safe to say Aang could've taken all of the Red Lotus by himself. The only really questionable match up is Zuko vs P'Li. He seemed to have difficulty against Sparky Sparky Boom Man, but it's entirely possible that Zuko would destroy her once he closed the gap and he presumably knows about the P'Li's forehead weakness. If she keeps him at range he can't win, but if he can get close he wins pretty handily.

The thing that's important to remember is that every bending member of Aang's Team Avatar was a legitimate, proven, master of their element. Very few, if any, were actually superior to those four - as a group they were actually comparable to the Order of the White Lotus. Aang was certainly equal to Iroh in power, Zuko should have been as strong as Jeong Jeong, Katara was around Pakku's level of strength and we all know Toph and Bumi were roughly equal in ability.

The Red Lotus have proven themselves to be exceptionally skilled, but they haven't actually fought anyone on that sort of level yet. Kya was pretty good but is she supposed to be as strong as Katara was? Can we really say that escaping from an 80-something year old Zuko in the middle of a frozen wasteland is the same as beating a 17 year old one inside a normal cave? Yeah, it's great an' all that Ghazan made a fool out of Bolin but are we going to pretend that Toph isn't on a completely different level to him in every way possible?


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## Darth (Aug 5, 2014)

Toph has shown feats that put Ghazan to shame.  Katara as well. Truly the only close match up is zuko's, but he arguably still wins it anyway.

Gaang clean sweeps.


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## Virgo Shaka (Aug 5, 2014)

Assuming this is the Gaang from ATLA and they are in their teenage selfs, I don't know why people are saying here that Katara and Toph have better feats than Ming Hua and Ghazan. Not only have the latter shown better agility and speed feats, they are even older and have more experience. The sheer insanity of their powers is also something that Toph and Katara lack. For instance, when has has Katara ever shown to be able to easily drill through the ground like Ming Hua does here?



In that same scene, Ming Hua also defeats two above average water benders without much trouble. As for Ghazan, again, he can turn rock and stone into magma, and as shown in his escape, he is extremely fast and agile, to boot. He is almost as floaty as an airbender, and he can also liquify the area around Toph. The only way she can defeat him is an area full of metal, which Ghazan can't control. Also remember that Bolin said that throwing rocks at Ghazan was like giving him ammunition. 

P'li should also be able to win against Zuko. If Combustion Man was able to take on the entire Gaang, a character that has shown even better combustion bending should not have trouble against just one of them. Aang should win against Zaheer, but only because he is able to use many elements. I still see Zaheer giving him trouble since even as a nonbender he was considered dangerous enough to be locked in a prison as secure as the other members of the Red Lotus. As an entire team, I think that the Red Lotus wins, though it would be a close fight.


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## Amae (Aug 5, 2014)

LOL, thinking Red Lotus' experience matters. The group's on par with people with even more experience than the Red Lotus, why even bring that up?

Is that drilling feat more impressive than Katara blocking comet powered Azula's lightning? All she did was make an ice drill, Unalaq did the same without covering his body in water.

Zaheer being able to beat a fully realized Avatar at their own element after just becoming a bender is laughable at best.


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## Totally not a cat (Aug 5, 2014)

Ming Hua is very aggressive in close quarters but it doesn't seem like she has Katara's raw bending power and flexibility, and please, Ghazan is not getting a break from Toph.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 5, 2014)

Aang and Toph win against their respective enemies. Ghazan would get trashed by Toph it's not even a question. Zuko loses to P'Li, her combustion bending can fucking bend, and she can handle dragon's fire.


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## Darth (Aug 5, 2014)

I'm pretty sure Zuko can also handle Dragon fire. And he's fought combustion benders before, he knows her weakness to stuns.

It's by far the closest of the four matches, but IMO he still wins it.


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## Wan (Aug 5, 2014)

Darth said:


> I'm pretty sure Zuko can also handle Dragon fire. And he's fought combustion benders before, he knows her weakness to stuns.
> 
> It's by far the closest of the four matches, but IMO he still wins it.



Zuko has no way of stunning P'li, though.


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## zenieth (Aug 5, 2014)

No he doesn't.

This is TLA Zuko and he knows stuns are her weakness due to the guy he hired.

Said guy at the time being well and away more than a match for the GAANG

P'Li stomps.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 5, 2014)

Darth said:


> I'm pretty sure Zuko can also handle Dragon fire. And he's fought combustion benders before, he knows her weakness to stuns.
> 
> It's by far the closest of the four matches, but IMO he still wins it.



Zuko has to stun her but he doesn't have anything that can stun her in the eye. Even Zuko at close range against CM in TLA he got beat when he was at the Air Temple. And P'Li can bend her attacks, that's even worse. If he knew lightning then he may have a chance to get a direct hit on the bullseye, actually, I'm quiet sure that would work.


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## Totally not a cat (Aug 5, 2014)

Actually, come to think about it, it doesn't seem like P'li is quite on Combustion Man's level other than being able to redirect her blasts. 
She isn't nearly as destructive and was taken out by a pebble from _Bolin_,CM took much more punishment and stood back up every time.


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## Rivers (Aug 5, 2014)

Darth said:


> I'm pretty sure Zuko can also handle Dragon fire.



Why is that? This is teenage Zuko. If she can casually disperse a Dragon blast meant to put down BOTH her and Ming Hua. What's Zuko's firebending meant to do to her?  Is he going to throw a sword at her eye?

If she can drop a full-grown DRAGON in one hit, how does Zuko disperse her combustion bending? All he can do is run and hopefully find cover...that is if P'li doesnt decide to make her combustion bending turn 90 degrees AROUND the cover and nail him anyway....


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## Wan (Aug 5, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> Actually, come to think about it, it doesn't seem like P'li is quite on Combustion Man's level other than being able to redirect her blasts.
> She isn't nearly as destructive and was taken out by a pebble from _Bolin_,CM took much more punishment and stood back up every time.



Toph took CM out with a pebble, too.


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## YoungChief (Aug 5, 2014)

I'm pretty sure bending feats in general in LoK aren't as impressive as TLA feats. Especially when it comes to Korra and the avatar state, Aangs use of it made Korra's look like a joke, totally going against what Roku said about the avatar state being stronger every cycle. Outside of Korra's giant form Aang shits on her in every way

Bolin and Mako compared to Toph and Zuko, they're nothing. I hope this whole subplot with Bolin not being able to metalbend ends with him gaining lavabending at least. When was the last time Mako used lightning? Season 1?


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## Totally not a cat (Aug 5, 2014)

Zuko's bending has shielded him from Combustion Man's blasts, which appear to be much more destructive.


Wan said:


> *Toph *took CM out with a pebble, too.


First of all, Toph is Toph. Second, the pebble didn't do much other than hit his weak point and mess with his bending, he didn't pass out like a pansy even after exploding his face.


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## Onomatopoeia (Aug 5, 2014)

Even restricting Aang to airbending, I'd still give him the edge over Zaheer. Aang was trained by, and recognized as, master airbenders.

Zaheer is good, but studying a culture isn't the same as living it and Aang's teachers were the best in the business as it were.


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## Darth (Aug 5, 2014)

None of her blasts have been anywhere near as destructive as Sparky Sparky Boom man's hits were. Have you seen his firepower recently?

[YOUTUBE]iMqJmygsZlA[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]eRtT0hR_MpY[/YOUTUBE]

P'li's, while impressive for being able to bend directions, is still nowhere near as powerful. Zuko managed to completely block Combustion Man's hit point blank, (granted he was blown off the cliff, but still took no damage). He should be able to counter P'li's attacks with ease. Zuko's ability and technique alone are leagues beyond P'li's. As a firebender, Zuko's technique is top tier at the end of A;TLA. 

Just check out his fight against Azula. Granted, it was during Sozin's Comet so the bending was amplified to super levels, he still completely matched and countered everything Azula threw at him (crazy though she was), and even got the upper hand on her with his technique. 

[YOUTUBE]oCXHi0kFucc[/YOUTUBE]

Some crazy Zuko/Toph underestimation in here. Feels like the lot of you haven't seen ATLA in ages and probably just don't really remember the feats. Bending in Korra has been a lot more tame than it was in ATLA. Especially Book 3 ATLA.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 5, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> Actually, come to think about it, it doesn't seem like P'li is quite on Combustion Man's level other than being able to redirect her blasts.
> She isn't nearly as destructive and was taken out by a pebble from _Bolin_,CM took much more punishment and stood back up every time.



Sokka took out CM with a boomerang


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## Wan (Aug 5, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> Zuko's bending has shielded him from Combustion Man's blasts, which appear to be much more destructive.
> 
> First of all, Toph is Toph. Second, the pebble didn't do much other than hit his weak point and mess with his bending, he didn't pass out like a pansy even after exploding his face.



The time Sokka did the same thing with his boomerang, it outright killed him.  And Bolin actually hit P'li mid-blast.  Toph and Sokka hit Combustion Man, and both times he got back up...only to be dumb enough to set off an explosion in his face each time.


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## Totally not a cat (Aug 5, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Sokka took out CM with a boomerang


CM shook off the boomerang hit and it wouldn't have accomplished anything if it were not for his weakspot messing with his bending, he took himself of out when his blast backfired. P'li literally passed out from a pebble to the face, it didn't involve her bending being disrupted.


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## Wan (Aug 5, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> CM shook off the boomerang hit and it wouldn't have accomplished anything if it were not for his weakspot messing with his bending, he took himself of out when his blast backfired. P'li literally passed out from a pebble to the face, it didn't involve her bending being disrupted.



It literally hit her mid-blast.  It wasn't the pebble that knocked her out, it was the backfiring.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 5, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> CM shook off the boomerang hit and it wouldn't have accomplished anything if it were not for his weakspot messing with his bending, he took himself of out when his blast backfired. P'li literally passed out from a pebble to the face, it didn't involve her bending being disrupted.



Same scenario with P'Li. The pebble hit her while she was going to blast away the two sisters, it was the blast which backfired on her.


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## Rivers (Aug 5, 2014)

Darth said:


> P'li's, while impressive for being able to bend directions, is still nowhere near as powerful. Zuko managed to completely block Combustion Man's hit point blank, (granted he was blown off the cliff, but still took no damage).



Zuko went full out in generating his fire shield and it didnt even disperse the blast. What it did was barely hold off the heat till the concussive force shoved him uncontrollably out of the blast zone. Several meters backwards. 

If he was pressed against the wall, his shield would have been completely engulfed with him in it. Zuko was lucky:

1. Combustion Man fires in a straight line. 
2. He saw it coming, so had time put all he had in his firebending defense.
3. He was in an area that allowed him to escape the blast radius.
4. Combustion Man didnt follow up and left him to recover from just one blast.



> He should be able to counter P'li's attacks with ease.



He barely defended against ONE of CM's blast with ALL HE HAD. He was lucky. He's not casually dispersing any of P'Li's explosions you are saying. 



> *Zuko's ability and technique alone are leagues beyond P'li's. *As a firebender, Zuko's technique is top tier at the end of A;TLA.



Try not to exaggerate here. Iroh and Ozai were top tier. There was a significant difference between him and them, granted he was solid high-tier.


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## Totally not a cat (Aug 5, 2014)

Wan said:


> It literally hit her mid-blast.  It wasn't the pebble that knocked her out, it was the backfiring.





Pocalypse said:


> Same scenario with P'Li. The pebble hit her while she was going to blast away the two sisters, it was the blast which backfired on her.


Though the blast did manage to travel some distance, enough for it to not harm Ming Hua and Ghazan which were standing next to her, and her blasts are still not nearly as powerful.



Rivers said:


> Zuko went full out in generating his fire shield and it didnt even disperse the blast. What it did was barely hold off the heat till the concussive force shoved him uncontrollably out of the blast zone. Several meters backwards.
> 
> If he was pressed against the wall, his shield would have been completely engulfed with him in it. Zuko was lucky:
> 
> ...


Zuko barely enveloped himself in fire and that's all he had? He has used more fire in his attacks during Book 1, and he would've completely blocked the blast if his shoes had better traction or if he had had something to hold on to, the attack only managed pushed him off the platform. Combustion Man thought he fell off the cliff so he didn't go after him when he had Aang throwing a tornado to his face.

That Zuko was able to defend from CM's blast without being injured means he would have an easier time doing the same with P'li's because her blasts simply don't have all that juice behind them.


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## Rivers (Aug 5, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> Zuko barely enveloped himself in fire and that's all he had?



Zuko, shielded himself completely from the front. Though unlike an Earthbended wall defence, you need to continually invest chi into it to keep it up. 





> He has used more fire in his attacks during Book 1, and he would've completely blocked the blast if his shoes had better traction or if he had had something to hold on to,



Zuko has both hands up just to maintain a frontal wall with considerable effort. I doubt he is capable of freeing on arm for grip and is going to generate a CONTINUAL defensive sphere with just the SINGLE arm.





> the attack only managed pushed him off the platform.



His lack of traction is what saved him. A front fire wall is obviously easier to generate than a rotating sphere right? Zuko moving backwards means he only concerns himself with fraction of CM's expanding omni-directional blast. 

Staying put right IN THE CENTRE of the blast is ludicrous. Having to continual defend not just the front, but the left and right sides, the top and even behind you now...is a different ballgame altogether. That's at least 4 times the effort. I dont see Zuko pulling it off unscaved at the very least, since imo* he was sailing a portion of CM's blast away from the point of most energy.* NOT outrightly tanking/defending it. 

You want to see what I think is some impressive firebending defense?





P'Li doesnt even use her own firebending to counter the flames. She just manipulates the Dragon's with her own hands! Ensuring the flames that circle around and even behind her disperse...leaving not only herself but Ming Hua untouched at all...casually.


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## Totally not a cat (Aug 5, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Zuko, shielded himself completely from the front. Though unlike an Earthbended wall defence, you need to continually invest chi into it to keep it up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Zuko was crouching on the floor and was just able to change his stance so much to make a half assed shield, the blast didn't even change Zuko's posture. I don't think chi is going to be a problem when we see him using more in a regular basis.



Rivers said:


> You want to see what I think is some impressive firebending defense?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is a completely different position, a stream of fire is much easier to deal with than an explotion, point being that this is possible. I'm not saying P'li isn't _skilled_, but she doesn't rival the original CM's stats, though if anything, tops him in skill and control. Guy was a terminator.


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## GrizzlyClaws (Aug 6, 2014)

Zuko has no chance of beating P'li. She will have him engulfed in fire and explotions coming from all directions in no time.


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## Darth (Aug 6, 2014)

Okay, let me put it this way. 

When P'li attacked Korra and crew, they hid behind a metal slab that simply dispersed her attacks while they literally just ducked. 

When the Gaang fought Combustion Man, he tore apart a fucking mountain and chased them across several miles of terrain. 

Are you seeing the difference in level yet?

As for P'li's dragonfire feat. Yes, it's fancy, she can redirect dragon fire. 

Now try stopping a point blank explosion using your own fire and tell me if it's a relatable feat. We've never seen a firebender manage to turn a combustion bender's fire back at them. The only thing we've seen that was close to this was Aang redirecting the explosion in midair into the ground. 

Zuko did not use everything he had to block that explosion. Your argument is "he used both hands so obviously that's the strongest defense he could muster"? pls. Explosion =/= stream of fire. Blocking any of Combustion Man's explosions proved extremely difficult for the Gaang. All they could do was dodge and run while hitting back in between attacks, but Zuko still managed to completely nullify Combustion Man's point blank explosion. P'li has not shown anywhere near that destructive capacity. So yes, I think Zuko could block her attacks with his bending.


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## Wan (Aug 6, 2014)

Darth said:


> Okay, let me put it this way.
> 
> When P'li attacked Korra and crew, they hid behind a metal slab that simply dispersed her attacks while they literally just ducked.



When earthbenders would try to block P'li's blasts with regular earthbending, her blasts destroyed those defenses.  The metal slabs were just that tough.  Combustion Man has no feats of his own at hitting metal slabs with his explosions.



> When the Gaang fought Combustion Man, he tore apart a fucking mountain and chased them across several miles of terrain.



Now that's an exaggeration.


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## Totally not a cat (Aug 6, 2014)

So are you implying that those thin ass metal slabs are tougher than the buildings and rock formations the original Combustion Man was rendering to crumbles? 

some of the original combustion man's feats
[YOUTUBE]Ah8atkXdnsg[/YOUTUBE]

P'li's
[YOUTUBE]9d4wovn-LdI[/YOUTUBE]

Yeah.


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## Velocity (Aug 6, 2014)

GrizzlyClaws said:


> Zuko has no chance of beating P'li. She will have him engulfed in fire and explotions coming from all directions in no time.



I really dunno... He fought, and beat, Azula. While she was nuts, that should have only affected her skill - the strength of her Firebending shouldn't have weakened, yet Zuko was cancelling it out and even overpowering it. I'm not sure P'Li has the raw power to overwhelm Zuko so easily.

Don't get me wrong, I think Zuko has the lowest chance of winning his fight compared to his allies but that's mostly a perception issue. Katara was the most powerful Waterbender alive, stronger than Pakku or Hama (as I recall Katara outright broke out of Hama's Bloodbending), and Toph was at least equal to Bumi if not a little stronger due to Metalbending and seismic sense. Aang was the only Airbender left, so there was no one to compare him to besides Gyatso and its debatable whether Gyatso killing all those Sozin's Comet-buffed Firebenders before dying is comparable to Aang holding his own against Ozai. When you add in the other three elements, though, Aang was clearly the most powerful Bender alive, as expected of a fully realised Avatar.

Yet when we get to Zuko, we see Iroh, Ozai and Azula as superior to him and so we assume Zuko is weaker than Aang, Katara and Toph because, basically, nobody is outright superior to those three.

Is it...

Aang > Katara = Toph > Zuko > Sokka

...or...

Aang > Katara = Toph = Zuko > Sokka

?

'Cause I'm leaning more towards option two - and if I'm right, then P'Li has about as much chance of beating Zuko as Ghazan has of beating Toph. Which is to say, very little.


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## Totally not a cat (Aug 6, 2014)

I think P'li just really doesn't have the punch power. None of the Red Lotus is near to the Gaang's tier of bending to be honest.


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## Pocalypse (Aug 6, 2014)

Velocity said:


> I really dunno... He fought, and beat, Azula. While she was nuts, that should have only affected her skill - the strength of her Firebending shouldn't have weakened, yet Zuko was cancelling it out and even overpowering it. I'm not sure P'Li has the raw power to overwhelm Zuko so easily.



Incorrect. Zuko even said himself that Azula was slipping because she went insane that's why she slipped in her skills a bit. There's no way someone like Azula would get caught by Zuko's attack when he was spinning on the floor. A comet powered Zuko failed to beat Azula who was insane and whos skill dropped. Prime Azula would rip Zuko a new one.


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## Totally not a cat (Aug 6, 2014)

The point of his comment was that Zuko matched Azula's firepower. We all know that Azula is superior to Zuko every day of the week when she has most of her screws tight.


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## Darth (Aug 6, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> A comet powered Zuko failed to beat Azula who was insane and whos skill dropped. Prime Azula would rip Zuko a new one.



Did you even watch their fight? Azula only won off a cheap shot lightning strike directed at katara that zuko decided to jump in front of instead. He was outright beating Azula at everything beforehand. 

You guys disappoint me...


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## YoungChief (Aug 6, 2014)

Darth said:


> Did you even watch their fight? Azula only won off a cheap shot lightning strike directed at katara that zuko decided to jump in front of instead. He was outright beating Azula at everything beforehand.
> 
> You guys disappoint me...



Before the fight began the only reason he was confident he could take her alone is he felt she was slipping and off her game


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## Expelsword (Aug 6, 2014)

Darth said:


> Did you even watch their fight? Azula only won off a cheap shot lightning strike directed at katara that zuko decided to jump in front of instead. He was outright beating Azula at everything beforehand.



The Zuko vs. Azula fight was the same as the Buutenks vs. Mystic Gohan fight.

Goku: "We need to fuse, Gohan! We can't beat him!"
*Fusion disolves*
Gohan: "Look at that, he's much weaker now, no need to fuse"
*Gohan is absorbed*
Everyone: "!!!"


Zuko: "You'd better come with me, I'll need help to take Azula down"
*Azula loses it*
Zuko: "You've gone insane... anyone could beat you now"
*cheap shot lightning*
Katara: "!!!"


----------



## Alucardemi (Aug 6, 2014)

The point he was contending was the statement that Zuko could not beat an insane Azula.

Which is just flat-out untrue. Zuko was absolutely crushing her in that specific fight. Heck, go read The Search; even though Azula is still abit bonkers(though feels more collected there), Zuko didn't even really need bending to beat her in the end of the comic.


----------



## Pocalypse (Aug 6, 2014)

Darth said:


> Did you even watch their fight? Azula only won off a cheap shot lightning strike directed at katara that zuko decided to jump in front of instead. He was outright beating Azula at everything beforehand.
> 
> You guys disappoint me...



Go watch the episode. Zuko blatantly said with plain English that Azula was *slipping*, actually I can even remember the sentence "I can feel her slipping" and even then he needed help to fight Azula. And even then he was on the defensive through the fight. All he could do was to wait for Azula to throw lightning at him and redirect it back at her so eventually she gets beat by her own power. And this is crazy Azula who doesn't even think properly and with her skills diminished. Sane Azula would trash Zuko, it's not even a question. 

"Cheap lightning strike" Good to admit you seem to be jelly that Zuko can't make lightning. I mean, Iron even said you need a good heart and a peaceful mind to create lightning, those words and Azula don't go hand in hand and yet she can solo with it


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## Darth (Aug 6, 2014)

Pocalypse said:


> Go watch the episode. Zuko blatantly said with plain English that Azula was *slipping*, actually I can even remember the sentence "I can feel her slipping" and even then he needed help to fight Azula. And even then he was on the defensive through the fight. All he could do was to wait for Azula to throw lightning at him and redirect it back at her so eventually she gets beat by her own power. And this is crazy Azula who doesn't even think properly and with her skills diminished. Sane Azula would trash Zuko, it's not even a question.
> 
> "Cheap lightning strike" Good to admit you seem to be jelly that Zuko can't make lightning. I mean, Iron even said you need a good heart and a peaceful mind to create lightning, those words and Azula don't go hand in hand and yet she can solo with it



err, wat

He told Katara right before the fight that he thought he could beat her. and that he didn't need her help.

and he wasn't really on the "defensive" during the fight. He hit her back just as hard with firebending just as strong. And he actually managed to land a hit on her, which she couldn't do. 

And not every firebender can lightning~bend. Why would I be jelly of this I'm not even that big of a Zuko fan lol. But the fact that he could just redirect it back at her means that he'll win anytime she tries to use it on him. Azula doesn't know how to redirect lightning. I don't think she'd be capable of doing so while insane anyway.

And Iroh never said you needed a good heart to Lightning bend. FFS, Ozai was doing it! lol. Zuko definitely underestimated his own skills, but while I agree that Sane Azula would definitely have the upper hand in a fight, it would be far from the "trashing" that you think it would be. 

Anyway, this discussion isn't about Zuko vs Azula. I only brought up their fight to point out Zuko's ability to deal with massive firebending attacks and his mastery of technique with firebending. Mastery that P'Li has definitely not shown.


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## Rivers (Aug 6, 2014)

Darth said:


> I only brought up their fight to point out Zuko's ability to deal with massive firebending attacks and his mastery of technique with firebending.
> 
> *Mastery that P'Li has definitely not shown.*



You keep saying this.

That long stream of Dragon Fire is MUCH MUCH larger than any Firebending Zuko has shown or could sustain.



>



Unless you want to give Zuko his Comet-Boost powers...??

P'Li waved her arms and made the whole thing disperse. What's Zuko's firebending going to do to her?


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## Totally not a cat (Aug 6, 2014)

The same thing it did to better people than her.


----------



## Rivers (Aug 6, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> The same thing it did to better people than her.



Like....what     ?


----------



## Virgo Shaka (Aug 6, 2014)

It should also be kept in mind that was in the North Pole in the middle of a snow storm when firebenders are at their weakest, and yet P'li was able to stop such an enormous fire ball with no effort.


----------



## Rivers (Aug 6, 2014)

Virgo Shaka said:


> It should also be kept in mind that was in the North Pole in the middle of a snow storm when firebenders are at their weakest, and yet P'li was able to stop such an enormous fire ball with no effort.



Not to mention, as P'Li said herself she has not used, faced or even felt firebending heat for 13 YEARS. At worst for her, it was a long overdue warm up stretch...


----------



## Totally not a cat (Aug 6, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Like....what     ?


Knock back, burn, tire? All P'li is done is bend a stream of fire around her and shoot some weak blasts and suddenly you think that's better than what Zuko's been feeding us for three seasons?


Rivers said:


> Not to mention, as P'Li said herself she has not used, faced or even felt firebending heat for 13 YEARS. At worst for her, it was a long overdue warm up stretch...


She was surrounded in lava and she had plenty of time to have a warm, cuddly welcome with Zaheer and the rest of the Red Lotus. Nothing seems to indicate she had been weakened at all.


----------



## Rivers (Aug 6, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> Knock back, burn, tire?



*Knock back? Burn? *With Zuko's firebending? 

She casually waved away a large amount of *Dragon Firebending* (without budging)...Zuko has *not shown* to produce under normal circumstances.  

Where are you getting his enormous firebending feats from? Which episode that equals the Dragon Fire in these pics Ive posted?



> All P'li is done is bend a stream of fire around her and shoot some weak blasts and suddenly you think that's better than what Zuko's been feeding us for three seasons?



I prefer quality over quantity. 

And I'll repeat in 3 seasons of Zuko feats, he has not shown the same amount of firebending as his eventual Full-grown Dragon. That's just how it goes. 

Zuko was not the Top-Tier Firebender, just because he hangs around with Top-Tier Masters of the other elements, *does not give him equal power by association.* Which I've picked up on as the main argument here.  



> She was surrounded in lava and she had plenty of time to have a warm, cuddly welcome with Zaheer and the rest of the Red Lotus. Nothing seems to indicate she had been weakened at all.



When was she surrounded by Lava in the North Pole? The first opponent she faced after 13 years of being captive in the coldest place in the Avatar world was a DRAGON. 

And she brushed off said Dragon...with a smile. 

What you're saying is replace that Dragon with teenage Zuko, and he would have stopped her (not including Ming Hua) instead....?


----------



## Lurko (Aug 7, 2014)

The red lotus wins this Imo.


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## Totally not a cat (Aug 7, 2014)

Rivers said:


> *Knock back? Burn? *With Zuko's firebending?
> 
> She casually waved away a large amount of *Dragon Firebending* (without budging)...Zuko has *not shown* to produce under normal circumstances.
> 
> Where are you getting his enormous firebending feats from? Which episode that equals the Dragon Fire in these pics Ive posted?


He's been able to compete with more capable characters even if outcasted in the end. He's clashed and matched characters like Azula, Katara and Aang. Him defending from the original combustion man is more than whatever P'li has shown.
Just because he isn't flashy doesn't mean he isn't capable.



Rivers said:


> Zuko was not the Top-Tier Firebender, just because he hangs around with Top-Tier Masters of the other elements, *does not give him equal power by association.* Which I've picked up on as the main argument here.


He was most certainly not in the level of Toph or Katara but he was one of the strongest fire benders alive. You're not giving him enough credit.



Rivers said:


> I prefer quality over quantity.
> 
> And I'll repeat in 3 seasons of Zuko feats, he has not shown the same amount of firebending as his eventual Full-grown Dragon. That's just how it goes.


Seriously, all she did was redirect the fire. If she had countered it then you'd have a point, her bending hasn't been too impressive by ATLA standards at all. If anything the dragon helped her regain warmth.



Rivers said:


> What you're saying is replace that Dragon with teenage Zuko, and he would have stopped her (not including Ming Hua) instead....?


I wouldn't say so, not with Ghazan and Zaheer on his ass as well.
 Though it's true she hasn't shown to be as agile, was knocked out rather easily and her blasts have been unimpressive. She, too, has proven to be the least capable of the Red Lotus.


----------



## Rivers (Aug 7, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> He's been able to compete with more capable characters even if outcasted in the end. He's clashed and matched characters like Azula, Katara and Aang. Him defending from the original combustion man is more than whatever P'li has shown.
> Just because he isn't flashy doesn't mean he isn't capable.



Did I say he was never capable? Taking on Aang numerous times in the first 2 seasons, doesnt mean he's on the same level as him since, Aang isnt offensive. He mainly just defends and avoids till he has a chance to escape.

Last he fought Katara was in the Catacombs, who I already said couldn't use her full power because of the limited amount of water. He matched Azula in the later half of S3, but then again besides Comet-boost she never used against him as much firebending as the Dragon we see here.

Do you think teenage Zuko can beat Combustion Man on his own? If yes, then your arguments have a logical sense. Otherwise, Zuko not beating Combustion Man doesnt mean an auto win against P'Li who you say is inferior to CM. That's what Im getting from you.



> He was most certainly not in the level of Toph or Katara but he was one of the strongest fire benders alive. You're not giving him enough credit.



Ive said he is solid high-tier. Which is FAIR and TRUE. What you're doing is power scaling him off benders who are stronger than he actually is.



> Seriously, all she did was redirect the fire. If she had countered it then you'd have a point, her bending hasn't been too impressive by ATLA standards at all. If anything the dragon helped her regain warmth.



Are you kidding? Controlling someone else's firebending with your bare hands is FAR BETTER than using your own firebending to meet it!

Can Zuko redirect Azula's Blue Fire with just his hands? Or does he actually have to put in effort and Chi to make his own fire, so that he doest get burned when the fire touches his bare skin?  

It's like you're saying parrying a sword with your sword is better than parrying a sword with your hands..? 

Think about it.



> I wouldn't say so, not with Ghazan and Zaheer on his ass as well.



Obviously they're not included yeah...Im taking about teenage Zuko doing better, hurting P'LI more compared to the dragon. That's it.



> Though it's true she hasn't shown to be as agile, was knocked out rather easily and her blasts have been unimpressive. She, too, has proven to be the least capable of the Red Lotus.



Well...care to prove experienced Earthbender Bolin throws a rock worse than Zuko? Because that is what is required if you're implying Zuko can do the same to P'Li.

Or does his firebending knock her out?



> She, too, has proven to be the least capable of the Red Lotus.



Interesting since Zuko doesnt seem to by quite on par with the other Gaang benders truth be told. And he's my favourite character.


----------



## Wan (Aug 7, 2014)

Spoilers for an upcoming Legend of Korra episode:



Yeah, that's going to change things up a bit.


----------



## Cognitios (Aug 7, 2014)

The only thing I'm worried about with that is Aang being able to airbend the air back in the victim


----------



## Wan (Aug 7, 2014)

If someone's got Aang pinned down -- like, say, P'li -- Zaheer would be free to pop one Gaang member after another until Aang's the only one left.


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## Totally not a cat (Aug 7, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Did I say he was never capable? Taking on Aang numerous times in the first 2 seasons, doesnt mean he's on the same level as him since, Aang isnt offensive. He mainly just defends and avoids till he has a chance to escape.
> 
> Last he fought Katara was in the Catacombs, who I already said couldn't use her full power because of the limited amount of water. He matched Azula in the later half of S3, but then again besides Comet-boost she never used against him as much firebending as the Dragon we see here.



Zuko isn't taking Azula, Aang, Katara or Combustion Man, but he can stroll around before being defeated and has proven so numerous times. You can't say P'li could do the same.

Azula was slicing buildings, deflecting collective attacks from the Gaang and bursting through Toph's thick rock walls. Compare that to P'li who can't get past a metal slab.



Rivers said:


> Do you think teenage Zuko can beat Combustion Man on his own? If yes, then your arguments have a logical sense. Otherwise, Zuko not beating Combustion Man doesnt mean an auto win against P'Li who you say is inferior to CM. That's what Im getting from you.


Most likely not, but he's more than capable of defending from his blasts uninjured, which means that P'li would have a hard time trying to break him down.



Rivers said:


> Ive said he is solid high-tier. Which is FAIR and TRUE. What you're doing is power scaling him off benders who are stronger than he actually is.


I'm not powerscaling Zuko from the rest of the gang, I'm saying he can handle that level of play and put up a fight though ultimately losing every time because he's not quite there yet. Don't know why I have to repeat that part in every comment.



Rivers said:


> Are you kidding? Controlling someone else's firebending with your bare hands is FAR BETTER than using your own firebending to meet it!


Uh, no. All she had to do was redirect the energy so it slid around her instead of at her. Aang was manipulating fire long before he could generate it on his own. This is pretty much why firebenders are able to deflect fire powerful enough to burn through rock walls with their bare hands.



Rivers said:


> Can Zuko redirect Azula's Blue Fire with just his hands? Or does he actually have to put in effort and Chi to make his own fire, so that he doest get burned when the fire touches his bare skin?


Yes. He has done so before, and It may require chi, but surely it doesn't require as much as actually generating fire on your own.



Rivers said:


> It's like you're saying parrying a sword with your sword is better than parrying a sword with your hands..?
> 
> Think about it.


Not quite. Parrying a sword with your own would've been her overpowering the fire with her own, parrying the sword with your hands would've been her punching the fire away, but you couldn't prove she didn't simply bend it away.

What she did is more similar to the martial arts designed for women to defend and beat down physically superior agressors. Another example would be using a satellite to change to course of a meteor.



Rivers said:


> Obviously they're not included yeah...Im taking about teenage Zuko doing better, hurting P'LI more compared to the dragon. That's it.


Then most likely yes, that's pretty much what the whole discussion we've been having for a while is all about, Zuko taking P'li 1v1. 



Rivers said:


> Well...care to prove experienced Earthbender Bolin throws a rock worse than Zuko? Because that is what is required if you're implying Zuko can do the same to P'Li.
> 
> Or does his firebending knock her out?


Zuko has deflected and shattered rocks as big as his torso with his physical strength only, so yeah he could hit harder than Bolin's pebble. Hell, even Sokka's boomerang is in a different tier than Bolin's pebble.
P'li would eventually be overwhelmed because her fire isn't as powerful as Zuko's, and she would have a hard enough time tagging him at all, considering we have Zuko outrunning Azula's mach 12 lighting while Korra was barely able to react to an explosion that wasn't quite as fast.
P'li's best agility feat is... landing on her feet.



Rivers said:


> nteresting since Zuko doesnt seem to by quite on par with the other Gaang benders truth be told. And he's my favourite character.


Nope, he isn't, which is kinda sad since he's a decent character. Toph is besto tho


----------



## Totally not a cat (Aug 7, 2014)

Wan said:


> Spoilers for an upcoming Legend of Korra episode:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's going to change things up a bit.


Oh yes, that's what I was talking about!
Airbending's hax potential has been ignored for too long.



Wan said:


> If someone's got Aang pinned down -- like, say, P'li -- Zaheer would be free to pop one Gaang member after another until Aang's the only one left.


P'li can't dream of pinning Aang down.


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## Rivers (Aug 7, 2014)

> Azula was slicing buildings, deflecting collective attacks from the Gaang and bursting through Toph's thick rock walls. Compare that to P'li who can't get past a metal slab.



Azula's Firebending power varies depending on the situation. Every attack she launches are NOT equal in power. Just fighting Azula does NOT mean Zuko can deal with all her levels of firebending.  

I STILL see Druk's Firebreathing more impressive than anything normal Azula can dish out except for Lightningbending and MAYBE a highly-charged power move. 



Totally not a cat said:


> Uh, no. All she had to do was redirect the energy so it slid around her instead of at her. Aang was manipulating fire long before he could generate it on his own. This is pretty much why firebenders are able to deflect fire powerful enough to burn through rock walls with their bare hands.



Manipulate the fire? What episode was this? Or did he manipulate the air (airbending) around the fire? A candle flame or a campfire, with no chi behind it hardly compares to the Fire Breath of a full-grown Dragon who is constantly breathing his chi-filled fire into your face.

There's a limit to how much fire a firebender can deflect/disperse with just the chi around their hands. If the fire is too strong, you get burned or slammed or both. This did not happen to P'Li.  



> Yes. He has done so before, and It may require chi, but surely it doesn't require as much as actually generating fire on your own.



Which episode was this?



> Not quite. Parrying a sword with your own would've been her overpowering the fire with her own,



No...in the first place, parrying means to deflect/redirect not overpower. Parrying a sword with a sword is P'Li using her own fire as barrier between herself and the Dragon Fire's heat / concussive force and THEN changing it's intended course.



> parrying the sword with your hands would've been her punching the fire away, but you couldn't prove she didn't simply bend it away.



I'm sure she's using bending / chi, but the fact she isnt generating any of her own fire, means she doesnt fear the heat or concussive force of the Dragon Fire. And that's a lot of Fire she's comfortable in facing without a barrier (her own fire). In other words, she's parrying away a sword with her hands, because the sword is too blunt and weak to hurt her. 



> What she did is more similar to the martial arts designed for women to defend and beat down physically superior agressors. Another example would be using a satellite to change to course of a meteor.



That's the opposite of the scene. The *Dragon Fire is inferior to her*, that's why she isn't using too much effort (generating fire to clash with it). Shouldn't the Fire Stream (size of half her body) overflow past her hands and all over the two of them if it was superior to her bending control? It's like someone is throwing an empty cardboard box at her, and she is swatting it away casually. Why do you think the Dragon Fire is stronger than her? 

Go back to Zuko for a moment, hypothetically what's a stronger Zuko? This one:



OR Zuko doing EXACTLY the same thing (being pushed back) ...but without his fireshield - directly MANIPULATING CM's explosion so that it isnt hurting/burning him...?



> Zuko has deflected and shattered rocks as big as his torso with his physical strength only, so yeah he could hit harder than Bolin's pebble. Hell, even Sokka's boomerang is in a different tier than Bolin's pebble.



Im talking about accuracy and speed from a distance, but is Zuko going to come in close and physically hit P'Li's forehead up close to knock her out?



> P'li would eventually be overwhelmed because her fire isn't as powerful as Zuko's,



As in my very first post, Druk's Firebreath > Zuko's firebending imo. She has great firebending control, so I think she can defensively handle most of Zuko's firebending.  



> and she would have a hard enough time tagging him at all, considering we have Zuko outrunning Azula's mach 12 lighting while Korra was barely able to react to an explosion that wasn't quite as fast.



P'Li has better range than Zuko, and it can change direction to somewhat follow a moving target...so she has those to use.


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Aug 7, 2014)

Velocity said:


> I really dunno... He fought, and beat, Azula. While she was nuts, that should have only affected her skill - the strength of her Firebending shouldn't have weakened, yet Zuko was cancelling it out and even overpowering it. I'm not sure P'Li has the raw power to overwhelm Zuko so easily.



Wasn't it stated that the strength of one's firebending is intrinsically tied to their emotional state?

I can't remember the episode, or even the book with any certainty, but I would think that going by that quote Azula's mental state would have affected the strength of her firebending.


----------



## GrizzlyClaws (Aug 7, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> She was surrounded in lava and she had plenty of time to have a warm, cuddly welcome with Zaheer and the rest of the Red Lotus. Nothing seems to indicate she had been weakened at all.



You are making shit up.


----------



## Totally not a cat (Aug 7, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Manipulate the fire? What episode was this? Or did he manipulate the air (airbending) around the fire?


When Aang was just learning firebending from Jeong Jeong (Book 1, chapter 16), he lit a small ember on a leaf for Aang to maintain, the ember eventually grew into a small fireball which Aang played with and burned Katara with.
 However Aang was not capable of producing fire on his own. He wasn't able to produce fire of his own until the dragons taught him and Zuko the secret of firebending (Book 3, chapter 13).



Rivers said:


> Which episode was this?


Not sure which episode it was, but here's a clip

[YOUTUBE]jb_hUN-Kprw[/YOUTUBE]
At around 8:05



Rivers said:


> No...in the first place, parrying means to deflect/redirect not overpower. Parrying a sword with a sword is P'Li using her own fire as barrier between herself and the Dragon Fire's heat / concussive force and THEN redirecting it around here.


Potato, potahto.
Dragons's fire have not shown the concussive force of a firebender's blast. The only other time we can appreciate it is when Aang and Zuko found themselves in the middle of two dragons's fire vortex, which did not showcase any push or knock back on them.



Rivers said:


> I'm sure she's using bending / chi, but the fact she isnt generating any of her own fire, means she doesnt fear the heat or concussive force of the Dragon Fire. And that's a lot of Fire she's comfortable in facing without a barrier (her own fire). In other words, she's parrying away a sword with her hands, because the sword is too blunt and weak to hurt her.


Firebenders deal with the heat too, because they really bend _energy_, not fire itself. This is first shown when Iroh makes a steam jacuzzi with his breath and explained by the dragon cult in Book 3. 
Must I mention how Ming Hua was completely unaffected by this oh so terrible heat?. Point being it either was not very fierce or P'li drove it away. That wasn't a raw strength feat, it would've been stupid for her to expend that amount of precious energy when she could use it to recharge like she did.

Besides, Aang and Zuko were pretty safe in the middle of a much greater amount of dragon fire and they were pretty helpless at the time. All P'li had to do to be completely fine was change the course of the stream, I don't quite understand what's so impressive about it.
[YOUTUBE]uWCOrlHNh4E[/YOUTUBE]



Rivers said:


> That's the opposite of the scene. The Dragon Fire is inferior to her, that's why she isn't using too much effort (generating fire to clash with it). *Shouldn't the Fire Stream (size of half her body) overflow past her hands and all over the two of them* if it was superior to her bending control? It's like someone is throwing an empty cardboard box at her, and she is swatting it away casually. Why do you think the Dragon Fire is stronger than her?


That's exactly what happened. 
She put her hands front and the fire dispersed all around them and then she simply drove the fire to flow _around them_, you can see her rotating her arms along with the fire in a waterbender ish motion. At no point did she cancel out the energy being present, instead she makes note of how she took advantage of it. 




Rivers said:


> Go back to Zuko for a moment, hypthetically what's a stronger Zuko? This one:
> 
> 
> 
> OR Zuko doing EXACTLY the same thing (being pushed back) ...but without his fireshield - directly MANIPULATING CM's explosion so that it isnt hurting/burning him...?



That's a very different situation, because the attacks are not comparable at all.
An explosion is much more violent and faster, Zuko's bending was weakened at that point in the series and he was crouching just giving him time to react and make a shield which took the hit cleanly and absorbed it's energy.

Another issue is that explosions are so much harder to deal with. I don't recall a single instance where anyone has bent an explosion away, best you can do is shield; whereas it's been constantly shown than manipulating fire is easier than creating it on your own. Then there's the fact that Combustion Man's explosions are on a completely different tier than that stream and anything P'li has shown.

But going back to your question, the former scenario talks more about Zuko's raw power, whereas the second is about his control. But the context is wildly different too. 
Zuko was crouching, giving his back to CM and was just able to put up a barrier in time whereas P'li had the luxury of standing there and watching the dragon and the stream coming forth. Even in those conditions only Zuko actually dealt with the energy while P'li let it slide.



GrizzlyClaws said:


> You are making shit up.


At that point I was confused, I thought he was excusing P'li incapability of getting through thin metal slabs with her being weakened from being cold for so long. I was thinking of Korra's kidnap situation in the metal city, where the Ghazan surrounded the team with lava. 
Sorry about that.


----------



## Rivers (Aug 7, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> Potato, potahto.
> Dragons's fire have not shown the concussive force of a firebender's blast. The only other time we can appreciate it is when Aang and Zuko found themselves in the middle of two dragons's fire vortex, which did not showcase any push or knock back on them.



There's no way to see concussive force if it's not pushing against something. They were in the middle of the vortex, and the fire itself directed NOT at them...but around them. If it was a swirling vortex of water...of course it would have concussive force. Though you would NEVER see it push Aang and Zuko unless they were sprayed directly with it. 

I chose to presume normality and precedence for something not explcitly shown. Normality and precedence being that offensive firebending producing heat and concussive force as BASIC properties. Why offensive firebending from a Dragon NOT to have concusive force or even intense heat comparable or even supriror to a human firebender, is not a discussion worth continuing for me.



> Firebenders deal with the heat too, because they really bend _energy_, not fire itself.



Yes, and P'Li didnt get hurt or even fear the heat and overall energy of the Dragon. 



> Must I mention how Ming Hua was completely unaffected by this oh so terrible heat?. Point being it either was not very fierce or P'li drove it away. That wasn't a raw strength feat, it would've been stupid for her to expend that amount of precious energy when she could use it to recharge like she did.



Dragon Fire trying to kill you not really hot? Obviously, P'li bended/shielded the heat away from Ming Hau, while appreciating it's warmth from the front. How was that not a feat? Because it was only hot as an average benders fire or even cooler? Even if that was so (I totally disagree), that's a large enough amount of fire,  more so than most human benders can dish out in one or even a few attacked all stacked up.



> Besides, Aang and Zuko were pretty safe in the middle of a much greater amount of dragon fire and they were pretty helpless at the time. All P'li had to do to be completely fine was change the course of the stream, I don't quite understand what's so impressive about it.



Rainbow Fire swirling around you intended to teach and inspire...is supposed to be more lethal than Dragon Fire spat directly into your face intended to smoke you?



> She put her hands front and the fire dispersed all around them and then she simply drove the fire to flow _around them_, you can see her rotating her arms along with the fire in a waterbender ish motion. At no point did she cancel out the energy being present, instead she makes note of how she took advantage of it.



That's what Zuko's been doing all this time against Azula's firebending. He waves his arm and it disperses her fire around him. Zuko never (that I recall) cancels out her fire. He disperse it with just his arm if it's small enough, or lanches his own firebending to disperse it when Azula throws a larger one at him. 



The explosion between them on the Airship is not cancellation either. They added their energy together forming an explosion which knocked both of them backwards - opposite of cancellation 



> That's a very different situation, because the attacks are not comparable at all. An explosion is much more violent and faster, Zuko's bending was weakened at that point in the series and he was crouching just giving him time to react and make a shield which took the hit cleanly and absorbed it's energy.



Missed the point completely. Im not comparing CM to Druk here. 

ONLY the hypothetical difference in impressiveness between Zuko and shield being pushed back, and Zuko just with his chi arms being pushed back. Forget about the feasibility  or if its even possible - which you've already explained on the last page (no need to repeat things). Straight forward answer, out of the two situations which would be more impressive? Former or Latter? 



> Another issue is that explosions are so much harder to deal with. I don't recall a single instance where anyone has bent an explosion away, best you can do is shield;


 I never asked you about the difficulty of explosions this since you've already mentioned it.  But at least you're acknowledging bending something away directly can be harder than shielding yourself with your own.  



> whereas it's been constantly shown than manipulating fire is easier than creating it on your own.



No it hasnt. You just said Zuko shielding himself (generating fire) was easier for him than dispersing (manipulating) CM's energy blast. Aang manipulating an ember without someone elses' chi behind it...is very different to manipulating BOTH CM's blast and Druk's Fire Stream.



> Then there's the fact that Combustion Man's explosions are on a completely different tier than that stream and anything P'li has shown.



Let me just remind you, P'Li treated the Dragon Stream like child's play agree or diagree?



> But going back to your question, the former scenario talks more about Zuko's raw power, whereas the second is about his control. But the context is wildly different too.



Raw power and control feats arent mutally exclusive. They usually come hand in hand. P'Li NEEDED control AND power to do what she did. Unless you want to argue John Smith firebender can do the same thing she did against a Dragon. Or even Zhao? Because as you insist it's not an impressive feat.



> Zuko was crouching, giving his back to CM and was just able to put up a barrier in time whereas P'li had the luxury of standing there and watching the dragon and the stream coming forth.



Okay so Zuko has a whole minute to prepare himself and brace for CM's blast. Does he do better JUST waving his chi arms against the explosion...or starting from crouch with a shield generated in a second or two (like what actually happened)? 

Just a simple answer is all I ask. Which Zuko comes off better?



> Even in those conditions only Zuko actually dealt with the energy while P'li let it slide.



Completely opposite actually. P'Li DEALT with the energy...it wanted to reach and burn where she and Ming Hua were standing right? Yet she basically told the energy stream to get out of her way with just her arm movements and a smile. And it did!

Did Zuko stop where the explosion wanted to go? It wanted to spread past from where Zuko was standing right? And IT DID. It was Zuko who got the hell out the way.  Yes, explosive energy is stronger etc. etc. (No need to repeat what you already said previously) 

Though I'd like an answer between Zuko vs CM Blast or P'Li vs Dragon Steam - who did better? 

As I said before imo, P'Li treated the Dragon Stream like child's play and basically told it to fuck off! With a smile.

Lets actually compare shown Zuko fire dispersion feats with P'Li's:



Non-comet Zuko on a completely different level of firebending to P'Li? Zuko overwhelming her  with his firebending?

Teenage Zuko out burning a FULL-grown Dragon...?


----------



## Amae (Aug 7, 2014)

Rivers said:


> That's what Zuko's been doing all this time against Azula's firebending. He waves his arm and it disperses her fire around him. *Zuko never (that I recall) cancels out her fire*. He disperse it with just his arm if it's small enough, or lanches his own firebending to disperse it when Azula throws a larger one at him.


He does at the very beginning of their fight during The Boiling Rock.


----------



## Rivers (Aug 7, 2014)

Amae said:


> He does at the very beginning of their fight during The Boiling Rock.



I dont see it. Its just dispersion using his own firebending. Which isn't as impressive as dispersion with just your arms anyway.

Let's look at if from a fresh analogy for a moment shall we? In Dragonball, if a Ki blast is fired at you...whats more impressive: 

1. Putting your hand up and dispersing it with you hand alone. Or..

2. Firing at it with your own Ki and dispersing it that way?


----------



## Amae (Aug 7, 2014)

> 1. Putting your hand up and dispersing it with you hand alone. Or..
> 
> 2. Firing at it with your own Ki and dispersing it that way?



Zuko's done both to Azula's firebending - Zuko disperses Azula's fire consecutively about 10 times with either his hands or feet, it isn't good enough; Zuko disperses Azula's fire with his own, it isn't good enough. At this point you're just ignoring evidence.


----------



## Rivers (Aug 7, 2014)

Amae said:


> Zuko's done both to Azula's firebending - Zuko disperses Azula's fire consecutively about 10 times with either his hands or feet, it isn't good enough; Zuko disperses Azula's fire with his own, it isn't good enough. At this point you're just ignoring evidence.



Did you skip the pic I posted?...COMPARE THE DISPERSION FEATS:



Both with JUST ARMS which is BETTER than with dispersion with his own firebending (not that you even answered my question).

Azula's firebending there is small compared to an actual Dragons...


----------



## Amae (Aug 7, 2014)

Hopefully you're aware benders don't just stand still and take shots at each other? If that were the case, Azula would've never stomped Zuko. Martial arts and skill are involved. 

Let's also not forget Zuko himself has launched a bigger blast of fire than that dragon's during the S2 finale against Aang - does that mean she couldn't do the same to one of his charged attacks? Zuko used a firewall to block CM's blast, which you haven't proven P'Li's to be superior to.


----------



## Rivers (Aug 7, 2014)

Amae said:


> Let's also not forget Zuko himself has launched a *bigger blast of fire than that dragon's*  during the S2 finale against Aang



No. He didnt. Even his charged one. Nope.



> - does that mean she couldn't do the same to one of his charged attacks?



It's still smaller than Druk's Fire Stream so yeah she should be able to handle it.



> Zuko used a firewall to block CM's blast, which you haven't proven P'Li's to be superior to.



Same deal with Zuko outputting more firepower than his FULL-Grown Dragon. He simply hasnt. Though P'Li has more opportunities to come.


----------



## Amae (Aug 7, 2014)

Rivers said:


> No. He didnt. Even his charged one. Nope.





Albeit it got smaller at the end.



> Same deal with Zuko outputting more firepower than his FULL-Grown Dragon. He simply hasnt.


Another case of just straight up ignoring evidence. Stop that if you want to be taken seriously. Let me type up the sequence of events plainly: CM's blasted at Zuko -> Zuko puts up a firewall -> CM's blast doesn't hurt or reach Zuko, the force only pushing back. The same would happen to P'Li until proven otherwise. 

This is the same technique used by Azula to simultaneously block Toph, Zuko, Aang, and Katara's bending.


----------



## zenieth (Aug 7, 2014)

No offense Amae.

But P'Li's a lot bigger than Zuko.

Hell, She's a lot bigger than most people


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## Amae (Aug 7, 2014)

Actually, Zuko's is bigger. P'Li dispersing it around her makes it appear bigger. Whether Zuko's flame was bigger or not doesn't actually matter in the slightest, it was just something I brought up because I vaguely remembered it. 

She would be able to block/disperse it, but my main point was the fact it was pretty much irrelevant. I mean, if she didn't have that dragon feat, would we assume her hands would be burnt from trying to redirect Zuko's fire?


----------



## Totally not a cat (Aug 7, 2014)

Rivers said:


> There's no way to see concussive force if it's not pushing against something. They were in the middle of the vortex, and the fire itself directed NOT at them...but around them. If it was a swirling vortex of water...of course it would have concussive force. Though you would NEVER see it push Aang and Zuko unless they were sprayed directly with it.


The fire stream went right beside them, if it had the concussive force of other firebeding feats it would've pushed them off the platfform, we've seen much smaller fireballs knock over doors and walls.
I don't see how the intention of the attack changes the fact that they were in the middle of a fucking fire tornado without defending themselves, Aang didn't want to hurt Katara at all and he did so with a much smaller amount of fire. 



Rivers said:


> I chose to presume normality and precedence for something not explicitly shown. Normality and precedence being that offensive firebending producing heat and concussive force as BASIC properties. Why offensive firebending from a Dragon NOT to have concussive force or even intense heat comparable or even supriror to a human firebender, is not a discussion worth continuing for me.


A normal human firebender's fireballs don't have a remarkable concussive force like Zuko or Azula's. They can punch holes in rock walls with small amounts of fire, most firebenders can't to do that all (metal slabs?). Moreover, skilled firebenders can redirect it, like Zuko did with Azula's flames and like P'li did with the dragon.



Rivers said:


> Yes, and P'Li didnt get hurt or even fear the heat and overall energy of the Dragon.


Aang and Zuko were exposed to more heat in the middle of that tornado (you could see heat blurring at one point), it didn't harm them at all. 
It's been many times I've said this, P'li didn't cancel off the dragon's energy, the amount of energy she needed to perform that feat is much smaller than the energy of the attack itself. Otherwise would have immediately extinguished the fire.



Rivers said:


> Dragon Fire trying to kill you not really hot? Obviously, P'li bended/shielded the heat away from Ming Hau, while appreciating it's warmth from the front. How was that not a feat? Because it was only hot as an average benders fire or even cooler? Even if that was so (I totally disagree), that's a large enough amount of fire,  more so than most human benders can dish out in one or even a few attacked all stacked up.


Is that a great amount of fire? Yes. Did she need anywhere near an equivalent amount of energy to perform her feat? Not at all.



Rivers said:


> Rainbow Fire swirling around you intended to teach and inspire...is supposed to be more lethal than Dragon Fire spat directly into your face intended to smoke you?


Fire is fire, and that 'rainbow fire' dwarfed the amount of fire P'li dealt with, they were encased in it and it didn't hurt them, meaning that the punch only exists if it hits you directly. If anything, we've been shown by Azula that personalized colour fire is hotter than regular fire. 



Rivers said:


> That's what Zuko's been doing all this time against Azula's firebending. He waves his arm and it disperses her fire around him. Zuko never (that I recall) cancels out her fire. He disperse it with just his arm if it's small enough, or lanches his own firebending to disperse it when Azula throws a larger one at him.


And that's _exactly_ what I was trying to tell you, redirecting fire is easier and a lot more casual than canceling it with your own. It requires less energy and effort.
Though Zuko has cancelled her fire before, he does counter her fire punch in that same scene.



Rivers said:


> The explosion between them on the Airship is not cancellation either. They added their energy together forming an explosion which knocked both of them backwards - opposite of cancellation


Uhm, they canceled each other's energy to the point that explosion didn't harm either of them at all, whereas it would have gravely injured them Zuko if he hadn't blocked the hit with his own. The explosion hurled them away, but not the attacks themselves.



Rivers said:


> Missed the point completely. Im not comparing CM to Druk here.


Seems like you're doing because you're acting like P'li feat was remotely as impressive as holding off the entirety of CM's blast.



Rivers said:


> ONLY the hypothetical difference in impressiveness between Zuko and shield being pushed back, and Zuko just with his chi arms being pushed back. Forget about the feasibility  or if its even possible - which you've already explained on the last page (no need to repeat things). Straight forward answer, out of the two situations which would be more impressive? Former or Latter?


Zuko with just chi in his arm would've not cut it. Before you get to conclusions, P'li didn't take the hit at all so she isn't a example of the latter either.



Rivers said:


> I never asked you about the difficulty of explosions this since you've already mentioned it.  But at least you're acknowledging bending something away directly can be harder than shielding yourself with your own.


I didn't say that. I said that bending _explosions_ appears to be more difficult, because no one has either achieved or tried that, it's a completely different scenario with fire. Book 1 Aang was able to manipulate fire but he couldn't generate fire at all until Book 3.



Rivers said:


> No it hasnt. You just said Zuko shielding himself (generating fire) was easier for him than dispersing (manipulating) CM's energy blast. Aang manipulating an ember without someone elses' chi behind it...is very different to manipulating BOTH CM's blast and Druk's Fire Stream.


Shielding a combustion bender's blast is possible, bending it off has never been done before. The same is not true for regular fire.

 Manipulating a fire stream to slide around you will NEVER be as impressive as shooting a fire stream of your own and extinguishing it. Even people who can't generate fire at all can manipulate the course of fire and feed it with chi, what does that say about it's difficulty?

Even if it was, for whatever crooked reason, that stream of fire isn't as impressive as the things Zuko has dealt with, and it is later confirmed by P'li being unable to move a fucking metal slab for christ's sake.



Rivers said:


> Let me just remind you, P'Li treated the Dragon Stream like child's play agree or diagree?


Agree, though manipulating fire is literally child's play. 
Dealing with that amount is something beyond a regular bender but not even on _Zuko's_ tier.



Rivers said:


> Raw power and control feats arent mutally exclusive. They usually come hand in hand. P'Li NEEDED control AND power to do what she did. Unless you want to argue John Smith firebender can do the same thing she did against a Dragon. Or even Zhao? Because as you insist it's not an impressive feat.


Yes, you need power and control to bend fire away in such fashion, but you need more control and *less* power than your attacker to do it. 

Zhao lacks the control to perform such a feat, otherwise I don't see why he wouldn't be able.



Rivers said:


> Okay so Zuko has a whole minute to prepare himself and brace for CM's blast. Does he do better JUST waving his chi arms against the explosion...or starting from crouch with a shield generated in a second or two (like what actually happened)?
> 
> Just a simple answer is all I ask. Which Zuko comes off better?


You're replacing a fire stream with CM's blast again. Asking him to bend CM's explosion in any situation is too much. We don't even know if such a thing is possible.
Of course, he would've defended better against the explosion if he had prepared for it, and he would not be troubled at all by a fire stream.



Rivers said:


> Completely opposite actually. P'Li DEALT with the energy...it wanted to reach and burn where she and Ming Hua were standing right? Yet she basically told the energy stream to get out of her way with just her arm movements and a smile. And it did!


If she had dealt with the energy the way I implied (canceling it off, requiring an equal amount of energy), she would've instantly extinguished the stream. She did not. She did the exact opposite.



Rivers said:


> Did Zuko stop where the explosion wanted to go? It wanted to spread past from where Zuko was standing right? And IT DID. It was Zuko who got the hell out the way.  Yes, explosive energy is stronger etc. etc. (No need to repeat what you already said previously


Ah, but you see, Zuko was completely unharmed by it, and the explosion was held off to some extent because usually they extend longer than that.



Rivers said:


> Though I'd like an answer between Zuko vs CM Blast or P'Li vs Dragon Steam - who did better?


Considering Zuko's situation, holding off from a stronger attacker while being weakened down himself. He did the fuck better.


Rivers said:


> As I said before imo, P'Li treated the Dragon Stream like child's play and basically told it to fuck off! With a smile.


Which doesn't really require nearly the amount of energy the dragon expended, and it only gets better when she proves later on that she doesn't even have that level of energy at all.



Rivers said:


> Lets actually compare shown Zuko fire dispersion feats with P'Li's:


Zuko dispelled a lot of _Azula's_ fireballs in a quick succession with only flicks of his wrists and feet. P'li used her whole body to redirect a stream of fire to move around her. Neither feat is particularly impressive other than showing off the prowess of their bending.

And the point of bringing up that scene was not to compare it, it was to show that firebenders often redirect fire because _it's easier_. Extrapolate that to P'li not having the firepower of a dragon.



Rivers said:


> Non-comet Zuko on a completely different level of firebending to P'Li? Zuko overwhelming her  with his firebending?


Considering that a weakened Zuko has shown more power than P'li and nearly or completely matches Azula after doing the dragon thingy? Absolutely.



Rivers said:


> Teenage Zuko out burning a FULL-grown Dragon...?


That would certainly be more interesting than Zuko vs P'li.



You see, there's a lot of troubles for P'li if she were to face Zuko

*She isn't as fast
*She isn't as agile and hasn't shown much physical prowess. Zuko is a very talented martial artist
*Her bending isn't powerful enough
*Was taken out by either a pebble or a small explosion from a distance


----------



## Rivers (Aug 7, 2014)

Amae said:


> Albeit it got smaller at the end.



 

Why not post the part of the attack that actually damages things?

How tall is Aang? That's him crouching..



That's it. Completely. The attacking part of the firebending, beginning to end.
Certainly not a sustained stream that's about at least as wide as half of what P'Li is tall (6'8).



> Another case of just straight up ignoring evidence. Stop that if you want to be taken seriously.



Did you just imply my posts in this thread are sub-standard and not quality enough for you? 

You really must skip my posts. I post pictures you know. Informative ones.



> Let me type up the sequence of events plainly: CM's blasted at Zuko -> Zuko puts up a firewall -> CM's blast doesn't hurt or reach Zuko, the force only pushing back. The same would happen to P'Li until proven otherwise.
> 
> This is the same technique used by Azula to simultaneously block Toph, Zuko, Aang, and Katara's bending.



It's just not getting through to you. Im was not talking about P'li firebending at Zuko...got that? 

I was talking about Zuko firebending at P'Li. Zuko aint going to hurt P'Li with firebending any easier. Since he has NOT SHOWN firebending of the same amount of Druk. 

Yes - I did debunk Zuko's charged attack you posted as being larger than Druk's.


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## Totally not a cat (Aug 7, 2014)

Punching her in the face sounds like a nice plan when you factor in that she's slower, not a martial artist and can't harm him.


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## Amae (Aug 7, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Why not post the part of the attack that actually damages things?
> 
> Yes - I did debunk Zuko's charged attack you posted as being larger than Druk's.


How could you debunk something by just providing visual evidence of what I said myself? If we strictly go by larger = more powerful, Zuko's charged blast would be no different than his regular fire blasts and that isn't the case.

The next best feat is likely this one:

*Spoiler*: __ 











> Did you just imply my posts in this thread are sub-standard and not quality enough for you?



I said exactly what I meant. 



> You really must skip my posts. I post pictures you know. Informative ones.



Good for you, but that doesn't negate the fact you denied visual evidence.



> It's just not getting through to you. Im was not talking about P'li firebending at Zuko...got that?
> 
> I was talking about Zuko firebending at P'Li. Zuko aint going to hurt P'Li with firebending any easier. Since he has NOT SHOWN firebending of the same amount of Druk.


Right, you just reiterated a point that was already obvious - P'Li can redirect his fire if she gets the chance. That doesn't mean they have an equal chance of hitting one another, though. For one thing, Zuko has better reactions and skill as a firebender.


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## Wan (Aug 7, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> Punching her in the face sounds like a nice plan when you factor in that she's slower, not a martial artist and can't harm him.



Huh?  We've seen that P'li can use normal firebending forms as well as her combustion bending.  She's a martial artist herself.

And as for why P'li didn't "completely dispel" Druk's fireblast, first of all, I don't think that's how firebending works to begin with.  I don't think there's any example of a firebender completely extinguishing an incoming fireblast; they always direct it around themselves in some way before i t extinguishes.  The picture Rivers posted of Zuko deflecting Azula's fireblast is an example of this.  And past that, P'li actually used the fire to her advantage.  "I've waited 13 years to feel this warm".  She was _invigorated_ by all the fire swirling around her; she wanted it that way, she didn't try and fail to completely extinguish it.


----------



## Totally not a cat (Aug 7, 2014)

Wan said:


> Huh?  We've seen that P'li can use normal firebending forms as well as her combustion bending.  She's a martial artist herself.
> 
> And as for why P'li didn't "completely dispel" Druk's fireblast, first of all, I don't think that's how firebending works to begin with.  I don't think there's any example of a firebender completely extinguishing an incoming fireblast; they always direct it around themselves in some way before i t extinguishes.  The picture Rivers posted of Zuko deflecting Azula's fireblast is an example of this.  And past that, P'li actually used the fire to her advantage.  "I've waited 13 years to feel this warm".  She was _invigorated_ by all the fire swirling around her; she wanted it that way, she didn't try and fail to completely extinguish it.


I literally don't know how else to make myself more clear. It's not a complicated matter, I've presented visual evidence mentioning relevant episodes and explained the points in different ways.

Did you read my other comments?


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## Wan (Aug 7, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> I literally don't know how else to make myself more clear. It's not a complicated matter, I've presented visual evidence mentioning relevant episodes and explained the points in different ways.
> 
> Did you read my other comments?



I did, and it's really been Rivers presenting visual evidence, then you trying to claim that it actually supports your claims.  I've yet to see an example of Zuko doing the "hard thing" of  completely extinguishing an incoming fireblast rather than deflecting it around him, much less dealing with the large sustained blast from Druk that P'li deflected with ease.


----------



## Totally not a cat (Aug 7, 2014)

I'll give it another go.


Wan said:


> Huh?  We've seen that P'li can use normal firebending forms as well as her combustion bending.  She's a martial artist herself.


First part is irrelevant, and pointless to bring up. We were already under this assumption and we've seen her shoot regular flame, and if your whole basis for saying she's a martial artist is because she made pretty stances while bending then that's worth nothing, especially next to someone like Zuko. Her best feat coming to that regard is landing on her feet, even child Zuko has displayed better feats during flashbacks.



Wan said:


> And as for why P'li didn't "completely dispel" Druk's fireblast, first of all, I don't think that's how firebending works to begin with.


In every instance, when one's firebending clashes with another of equal force both are stopped cold and dissipate in the air. You'll find many examples of this, I think it's very easy to appreciate in Zuko and Azula's final battle.
[YOUTUBE]oCXHi0kFucc[/YOUTUBE]



Wan said:


> I don't think there's any example of a firebender completely extinguishing an incoming fireblast; they always direct it around themselves in some way before i t extinguishes.


Redirecting the fire is an often employed tactic because it requires less energy and effort than matching it yourself. This is what P'li did with the dragon's fire stream.



Wan said:


> The picture Rivers posted of Zuko deflecting Azula's fireblast is an example of this.


Yes, I said that myself several times now, that was the original intention of posting that scene.

I'll also take this chance to thank Rivers for using screens to illustrate what he's saying, that's been helping out a lot.


Wan said:


> And past that, P'li actually used the fire to her advantage.  "I've waited 13 years to feel this warm".  She was _invigorated_ by all the fire swirling around her; she wanted it that way, she didn't try and fail to completely extinguish it.


Why I said that myself, too.

There's two things about that scene:

A) P'li did not showcase an equivalent amount of energy as the dragon so you can't scale her from that.

B) Zuko has shown better feats than that dragon's breath either way.

That's it. 
Rivers has said that she could defend from Zuko's attacks in the same fashion and that's entirely possible, but only for so long. She's getting overwhelmed by both his fire and physical attributes.


----------



## Wan (Aug 7, 2014)

Totally not a cat said:


> I'll give it another go.
> 
> First part is irrelevant, and pointless to bring up. We were already under this assumption and we've seen her shoot regular flame, and if your whole basis for saying she's a martial artist is because she made pretty stances while bending then that's worth nothing, especially next to someone like Zuko. Her best feat coming to that regard is landing on her feet, even child Zuko has displayed better feats during flashbacks.



Bending is based on martial arts, firebending in particular is based on Northern Shaolin kung fu.  If you are trained in firebending, you're a martial artist.  C'mon, this is basic Avatar: The Last Airbender trivia, here.




> In every instance, when one's firebending clashes with another of equal force both are stopped cold and dissipate in the air. You'll find many examples of this, I think it's very easy to appreciate in Zuko and Azula's final battle.
> [YOUTUBE]oCXHi0kFucc[/YOUTUBE]



They stop because they generally _are not sustained_.  But even that fire is usually directed around the firebender rather than immediately stopped, as illustrated by the pictures of Zuko deflecting Azula's fire on the last couple pages.  Zuko's fight with Zhao is also a good illustration of this:

[YOUTUBE]DsPFRMW3qR4[/YOUTUBE]

  It's also illustrated It should be pointed out that P'li did _the exact same thing_ with deflecting Mako's firebending in "The Terror Within".

Examples from Sozin's Comet are irrelevant, as Sozin's Comet is not in effect here.  Firebending attacks generally don't collide with each other in normal circumstances.



> A) P'li did not showcase an equivalent amount of energy as the dragon so you can't scale her from that.



Then I guess you can't scale Zuko from deflecting any of Azula's fireblasts, either.



> B) Zuko has shown better feats than that dragon's breath either way.



He really hasn't.  Druk's blast was larger and more sustained than anything Zuko has done, outside of Sozin's Comet.


----------



## Totally not a cat (Aug 7, 2014)

Wan said:


> Bending is based on martial arts, firebending in particular is based on Northern Shaolin kung fu.  If you are trained in firebending, you're a martial artist.  C'mon, this is basic Avatar: The Last Airbender trivia, here.


Tell that to Mako and Bolin.
Even if she were, because it's not far fetched to believe, she has shown nothing to compete with Zuko.



Wan said:


> They stop because they generally _are not sustained_.  But even that fire is usually directed around the firebender rather than immediately stopped, as illustrated by the pictures of Zuko deflecting Azula's fire on the last couple pages.  Zuko's fight with Zhao is also a good illustration of this:
> 
> [YOUTUBE]DsPFRMW3qR4[/YOUTUBE]


There was not a single example of what I was saying in that video, they were simply avoiding and deflecting each other's fire because an Agni Kai is more akin to a sportive demonstration. 
If you watched the video I posted you'd see that the fire disperses in collision.



Wan said:


> It's also illustrated It should be pointed out that P'li did _the exact same thing_ with deflecting Mako's firebending in "The Terror Within".


That's basically the same thing she did with the dragon but in a lesser scale. Yes, she can redirect fire, that's not being disputed at all.


Wan said:


> Examples from Sozin's Comet are irrelevant, as Sozin's Comet is not in effect here.  Firebending attacks generally don't collide with each other in normal circumstances.


It's not irrelevant at all, I'm talking about the nature of the attack not it's magnitude. This is a perfect example because when dealing with those amounts of fire deflecting and avoiding becomes less viable than meeting it with your own overflowing energy. Firebenders not usually colliding that way to each other is irrelevant because I'm talking about when _they do collide_, and in that video they are doing precisely that.



Wan said:


> Then I guess you can't scale Zuko from deflecting any of Azula's fireblasts, either.


Nope. You can't scale Azula's power to Zuko just because he reflected her flames, you scale Zuko from Azula because he has matched, and in a few instances, overpowered those flames with his own. Something P'li didn't to with the dragon.



Wan said:


> He really hasn't.  Druk's blast was larger and more sustained than anything Zuko has done, outside of Sozin's Comet.


Both Combustion Man and Azula are > anything P'li has ever done and that dragon's fire stream.


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## OS (Aug 7, 2014)

Didn't they already canonically beat Gaang before?


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## Wan (Aug 7, 2014)

It's funny that you're dismissing Zuko and Zhao's agni kai for its "sportive nature" when Zuko and Azula's fight during Sozin's Comet _was another Agni Kai._

A change in an attack's magnitude _is_ a change in its nature.  There's no telling how upscaling the attacks could change their behavior, and it's plain to see that their firebending during Sozin's Comet involved a lot more sustained streams than normal.  It doesn't apply to normal firebending, period.


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## Totally not a cat (Aug 8, 2014)

Wan said:


> It's funny that you're dismissing Zuko and Zhao's agni kai for its "sportive nature" when Zuko and Azula's fight during Sozin's Comet _was another Agni Kai._


I said there were no instances where fire collided in Zuko and Zhao's fight, and that due to the level of Zuko and Azula's fight they were hard pressed to do anything but fight each other's fire. I don't know where are you trying to get here.



Wan said:


> A change in an attack's magnitude _is_ a change in its nature.  There's no telling how upscaling the attacks could change their behavior, and it's plain to see that their firebending during Sozin's Comet involved a lot more sustained streams than normal.  It doesn't apply to normal firebending, period.


That doesn't make sense, you're making up your own logic trying to dismiss the scene when in the end it doesn't really matter. I pointed it out merely because there was a lot of action that served to illustrate the point. 


What are you even arguing anymore? Really. There's no way to justify P'li's bending being stronger than Zuko's, because she's proven otherwise, so far she's proven to be inferior in every other stat as well.


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