# Gai is High High Kage: Yay or Nay?



## Topace (Aug 5, 2019)

Is the this statement true of false?

No 8th Gate just 1-7.


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## Jad (Aug 6, 2019)

Put some people in the High High Kage bracket and then I can give you my answer.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Bonly (Aug 6, 2019)

It's a very solid nay


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## Tri (Aug 6, 2019)

its a no from me dawg


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## EliDZ (Aug 6, 2019)

When I think of High Kage I think of BM Naruto, Nagato(Prime), SM Kabuto, EMS Madara(No Kurama).

So nay


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## ShinAkuma (Aug 6, 2019)

That's  a hard no.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Aug 6, 2019)

High kage for me atleast means Minato, Tobirama, hashi, Madara ish..... So nope. 
It depends on what your definition of high kage is.


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## Architect (Aug 6, 2019)

He surprised Madara almost like base Rikudo Naruto did and then clenched him with the taijutsu barrage and also showcased good strength. He is not beating Madara with this, but this is pretty much enough against other characters.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Divell (Aug 6, 2019)

One Hirudora from an almost dead Guy, overpowered Madara's Susanoo which is more than tje Kage could do. And another was able to push Juubidara back.


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## Android (Aug 6, 2019)

Hell to the fuck No.


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## TBBH (Aug 6, 2019)

Who are your high kage?


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## Shazam (Aug 6, 2019)

We got some people putting Gai above Nagato tier, and some who place him under Hebi Sasuke.

Take your pick.

As for me, he sit comfortably with Mid Tier Akatsuki levels.


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## BlackHeartedImp (Aug 6, 2019)

Depends on who you have in high kage. My high kage list is just under demigod, so guys like Nagato, KB, EMS Sasuke, etc. I would personally put Gai in mid kage. Too strong to lose to anyone in low kage outside of matchups, competes with other mid kage nicely. He's relative to mid tier akatsuki (Kisame being the perfect example).


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## Quipchaque (Aug 6, 2019)

Hell no.


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## Turrin (Aug 6, 2019)

Gai is around the level of Kisame, though slightly stronger; basically the same dynamic as Kakashi and Zabuza. So more realistically he’s Low-Kage or on the boarder of Kage level. Why do I place Gai so low, we’ll he lacks versatility; he’s only good at Taijutsu; outside of that he isn’t even on par with Jonin in any other Ninja Art; and this creates a lot of openings and flaws in his style. Also while Gates do grant Gai access to Mid/Long range attacks; they can be countered by any Kage (Except maybe Mei) at Mid/Long ranges, so he’s still only really a threat to Kages in close range. The other problem is he can’t spam Gates; and as such his effectiveness in scenarios where It’s not strictly 1v1 are much lower then the Kages who can all use their moves much more freely.

So If Gai manages to corner someone into a CqC Taijutsu fight when he has Gates open he can beat almost anyone in the Manga, but that’s a big if; that I don’t see it happening very often. 8TH Gate is great but if he gets a chance to use it it’s at best a draw; saying at best Gai draws with someone doesn’t make me believe Gai is on their level, rather it makes it clear he is not on their level; and outside 1v1 8TH Gate is even less effective. 

Gai is probably most comparable to Deidara, who represents the other side of the coin as a long range specialist

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Aug 6, 2019)

Jonin.


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## Grinningfox (Aug 6, 2019)

His lack of versatility keeps him out of a Highkage bracket 

He’s a mid tier


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 6, 2019)

He is high kage while in the 7th gates but he is limited in his attack options and can't stay in it for long. 

Overall mid kage seems fair.


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 6, 2019)

Hell No Low Kage 

Kisame 
Konan 
Gai
Kakashi 
Deidara 

Are monstrous talents who have major drawbacks to their arsenal and under right condition step to ninja out their weight class but can also be easily defeated by characters out their weight class .

Reactions: Like 3


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## ~Kakashi~ (Aug 6, 2019)

I have him either at the top of the mid tier or rock bottom of high. Around the same level as people like the sannin, Danzo(koto restricted), Taka/Bee Fight Sasuke, etc. Above characters like Kakashi and the mid tier akatsuki,  below the doujutsu trio, Onoki, just as some examples of my tiering.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Aug 6, 2019)

Lower high Kage.

Reactions: Like 2


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## MaruUchiha (Aug 6, 2019)

Remove 1 High and i agree


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## Santoryu (Aug 6, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Lower high Kage.



Probably this.

If one considers Itachi and Bee high kage, Gai also, is high Kage

just depends on how one defines their tiers


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## Quipchaque (Aug 6, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Probably this.
> 
> If one considers Itachi and Bee high kage, Gai also, is high Kage
> 
> just depends on how one defines their tiers



There is no way Gai is anywhere near high kage when he rivals sharingan Kakashi in strength ever since their academy days and only ever surpassed him in the war arc after activating the 8.gate... People are really ignoring the narrative of Gai's story hard.


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## Santoryu (Aug 6, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> There is no way Gai is anywhere near high kage when he *rivals sharingan Kakashi* in strength ever since their academy days and only ever surpassed him in the war arc after activating the 8.gate... *People are really ignoring the narrative of Gai's story hard.*




Think you're ignoring the narrative of Kakashi hard.


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## Braiyan (Aug 6, 2019)

Depends if he's in his wheelchair or not. With it he's clearly God tier.


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## WorldsStrongest (Aug 6, 2019)

He gets mid diffed at most by Pre war SM Naruto or MS Sasuke who are low level High Kages 

So no

He most certainly isnt 

I dont even see him beating Hebi Sasuke, WA Gaara, or the Sannin who I have as higher level Mid Kages


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## Hi no Ishi (Aug 6, 2019)

Naw. He is on the top of mid tier or bottom end of High Kage. 
Same level as Kakashi, Kisame etc and a solid match for any of the Akatsuki team members but below the leaders.


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## ~Kakashi~ (Aug 6, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> There is no way Gai is anywhere near high kage when he rivals sharingan Kakashi in strength ever since their academy days and only ever surpassed him in the war arc after activating the 8.gate... People are really ignoring the narrative of Gai's story hard.



Gai surpassed Kakashi before part 1/in part 1 when Kakashi got rusty, and Kakashi never caught back up, as Gai seemingly kept improving as well. 

Gai did not require the 8th Gate to surpass Kakashi. Kakashi knew all along that Gai had access to it and what kind of power it could grant him(he notes this in the chunin exams arc), so obviously he knew Gai possessed a temporary power up that greatly surpassed anything Kakashi has ever been capable of up to that point(DMS later on through Obito's help changes that statement obviously). His admission was confirming what Sakumo had told him as a kid, *Link Removed*

It's not Sakumo saying "some day that kid is gonna open the 8th gate". It's the same narrative that the entire story is based on. Hard work > natural genius. Naruto > Sasuke. Hashirama > Madara. Gai > Kakashi. Lee grows to > Neji. So on and so forth. 

You can even look at "smaller" aspects of the story in that Gai has to save Kakashi on two different occasions in the manga, which doesn't sound like a lot, but for a character that has as little panel time as Gai(relative), that's significant. Gai beats the "mid tier" Akatsuki member that confronts him(Kisame), Kakashi couldn't(in the case of Deidara and Kakuzu). That kinda thing.

And it's also worth noting he's never been called Kakashi's equal. They were rivals, but that does not mean equals. But Danzo and Hiruzen were rivals, and even after he placed 11 sharingan and hashirama DNA in to himself, Danzo says he never caught up to Hiruzen(and jesus what the gap must have been like without those things for Danzo, especially given how poor his showing vs Sasuke was). Hashirama and Madara were rivals, but Hashirama was always noticeably stronger. Now I'm not saying the gap between Kakashi and Gai is as large as Hiruzen and Danzo's(especially without the enhancements he got later in life) or Hashirama and Madara's, I'm just noting that being rivals does not make the equals.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Quipchaque (Aug 6, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Think you're ignoring the narrative of Kakashi hard.



No I'm not. We know they have always been rivals ever since their childhood yet it has been implied over and over again and also confirmed in the Manga that Gai never managed to surpass Kakashi until his final battle which was supposed to bring closure to this eternal rivalry.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 6, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> *Gai surpassed Kakashi before part 1/in part 1 when Kakashi got rusty, and Kakashi never caught back up, as Gai seemingly kept improving as well. *
> 
> Gai did not require the 8th Gate to surpass Kakashi. Kakashi knew all along that Gai had access to it and what kind of power it could grant him(he notes this in the chunin exams arc), so obviously he knew Gai possessed a temporary power up that greatly surpassed anything Kakashi has ever been capable of up to that point(DMS later on through Obito's help changes that statement obviously). His admission was confirming what Sakumo had told him as a kid, *Link Removed*
> 
> ...



I stopped reading when I read the bold. Sorry.


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## ~Kakashi~ (Aug 6, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> I stopped reading when I read the bold. Sorry.



If you're under the impression that they were supposed to be equals the entire time, yet Kakashi himself says he's gotten rusty, then we're going off the idea that part 1 Kakashi = Gai who can open 7 gates and the Kakashi before that was some kind of beast that would have shit on the mid tier Akatsuki(Gai having took out, arguably, the strongest mid tier Akatsuki member), but somehow over his training during the time skip and gaining the ability to use kamui still somehow couldn't reach his pre-part 1 form(as noted by his inability to take down either Deidara or Kakuzu). 

That's quite the conclusion to come to.


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## Mithos (Aug 6, 2019)

No, he fits best in Low Kage.

He has a good chance to defeat each junior Akatsuki member (whom I also consider Low Kage) one on one, while he loses solidly to the senior members (Sasori / Kakuzu) who are Mid Kage. He fares poorly against actual High Kage such as Hiruzen, Minato, Tobirama, Itachi, and the Legendary Sannin.

He doesn't fare particularly well against known Five Kage, either. Out of those we know who have held the position, he could _perhaps _defeat Mei or Rasa, but I honestly wouldn't favor him against either of them, and both have more utilty/use for a village than he does.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santoryu (Aug 6, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> No I'm not. We know they have always been rivals ever since their childhood yet it has been implied over and over again and also confirmed in the Manga that Gai never managed to surpass Kakashi until his final battle which was supposed to bring closure to this eternal rivalry.



I have no problems with them being equals. It was one of the most clear cut rivalries in the series. What I have a problem with is you saying Gai can't be that strong because he's comparable to Kakashi. Because Kakashi is that strong and I think you're underselling him.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 6, 2019)

No, he’s a mid mid Kage along the likes of Tsunade and Gengetsu.

High Kage starts at Ōnoki and ends at Nagato, neither of which Guy falls between outside of 8G.


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 6, 2019)

Gai is elite tokubetsu jounin


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## Turrin (Aug 6, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, he’s a mid mid Kage along the likes of Tsunade and Gengetsu.
> 
> High Kage starts at Ōnoki and ends at Nagato, neither of which Guy falls between outside of 8G.


He’s definitely not even Mid-Kage; he’s inferior to every Kage in the verse.


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## ThirdRidoku (Aug 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He’s definitely not even Mid-Kage; he’s inferior to every Kage in the verse.




Gai beats Tsunade, that much I'm confident of. He would run literal circles around War Arc Gaara who struggled to tag Juki Boy in the desert, even in the 6th Gate, where he showed the ability to air walk to an extent iirc. Its entirely possible that he can beat Gaara assuming Gaara doesn't start with a desert level of sand. I see him losing to Mei's hiddenmist/acid mist combo and wide AOE ninjutsu, but he can win against the Fourth Raikage, and ohnoki would give him a tough time. I fail to see how , especially with access to Gates, an ability that was established from the get go to provide its users with the ability to reach the kage level, would make him unable to defeat a single Kage in the verse. The Raikage himself is even less versatile than Gai, because Gai has superior CQC skill and has mid to long range options.


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## Turrin (Aug 6, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Gai beats Tsunade, that much I'm confident of. He would run literal circles around War Arc Gaara who struggled to tag Juki Boy in the desert, even in the 6th Gate, where he showed the ability to air walk to an extent iirc. Its entirely possible that he can beat Gaara assuming Gaara doesn't start with a desert level of sand. I see him losing to Mei's hiddenmist/acid mist combo and wide AOE ninjutsu, but he can win against the Fourth Raikage, and ohnoki would give him a tough time. I fail to see how , especially with access to Gates, an ability that was established from the get go to provide its users with the ability to reach the kage level, would make him unable to defeat a single Kage in the verse. The Raikage himself is even less versatile than Gai, because Gai has superior CQC skill and has mid to long range options.



Gai has nothing that can get through Byakugo Katsuya that tanked CST outside 8TH Gate

Gai has nothing that can get through WA Gaara defense outside 8TH Gate

That means against those 2 at best it’s a draw; at worse he gets low-diffed before using Gates; as Base Gai is fodder to both Tsunade and Gaara.

He can win against Ei but only because Ei focuses on CQC; and that is Gai specialty 

Yes Gates allows Gai to reach Kage level; thing is Gates are short bursts; someone who attains Kage level in short bursts definitely doesn’t sound like a Mid/High Kage


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## Muah (Aug 6, 2019)

With just seven gates he's under pain but I put him up there with Itachi, A, Minato, Oonoki. Clearly under them but with8 gates he's leaps and bounds higher so yeah.

If he was a kage I'd consider him a high high kage because he can compete with just about any other ninja out there and if there was a war he'd win it.  Basically nobody can defeat Konoha whiles he's there short of god tier members. You have to put together a super team to beat him. infact I think he was largely the reason Konoha was still seen as unbeatable besides the sannin.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 6, 2019)

@WorldsStrongest I honestly don’t see Hebi Sasuke standing much of a chance against 7G Gai.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 6, 2019)

@Shazam And There’s the root of out disagreement. You think that Gai was in the same general Tier as the Mid Kage. I think that Kishimoto clearly meant for Gai to be comfortably above them. Kisame was the strongest of them IMO and Gai defeated him in the ocean. Against Kakuzu, Deidara and Sasori... there best hope is to kill him before he opens the 6th or 7th Gate. Once he does he has more than enough DC to kill them and a massive enough speed advantage to avoid most of their attacks.


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## ThirdRidoku (Aug 6, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Gai has nothing that can get through Byakugo Katsuya that tanked CST outside 8TH Gate



Why would Gai need to get through Katsuya? Gai knows Tsunade's reputation as a sannin and also is aware that she is the hokage. If he doesn't open up a few gates off the bat, his base skills and speed would allow him to pressure her without any issues. She is a CQC specialist in her own right, but her strongest aptitude isn't in taijutsu skill, its in her physical stats and healing.  Her fighting style of taking hits and timing counter punches for the one shot isn't gonna fly by Konoha's number one taijutsu specialist. In Base to Base, I'll give Tsunade physical strength, and with healing she can compete with Gai's assault.  Summoning Katsuyu is unlikely in the first place given Gai's speed advantage, she isn't getting any time to bend down and focus on summoning during the taijutsu exchange. And she already needs some time to weave the seals necessary to activate her healing techniques. 

in the 6th Gate and 7th Gate, she would struggle to keep up with Gai's speed  in terms of reflexes, and would take a really bad beating. Repeated and extremely rapid blunt force trauma combined with burning damage. If she doesn't outright die from that like Kisame did, Hirudora to follow up ends her. And her actual durability isn't as amazing as her healing. She was less durable than Base A4. And when I say Base, I'm talking WITHOUT Raiton Armor. Just look at their respective conditions after undergoing light speed travel to reach the battlefield to fight Edo Madara. And that Same A4 was lightly injured by Sasuke's chidori in V1 raiton armor.

Her healing techniques are only active if she has chakra left, so if she outright dies to an attack there is no regenerating from death, as when you die chakra goes to zero.



Turrin said:


> Gai has nothing that can get through WA Gaara defense outside 8TH Gate



Possibly.  But I am not sure that I have any reason to take this as an absolute. Hirudora seemed to be able to harm Edo Madara's Susano'o.


Turrin said:


> He can win against Ei but only because Ei focuses on CQC; and that is Gai specialty



Yea, but then that is at least one Kage that he wouldn't be  inferior to. And Ei certainly isn't a low Kage. His strength, speed, durability, reflexes, and stamina are a problem.



Turrin said:


> Yes Gates allows Gai to reach Kage level; thing is Gates are short bursts; someone who attains Kage level in short bursts definitely doesn’t sound like a Mid/High Kage



Yeah but in those short bursts he can end a ton of characters. Kisame didn't react very well to the 6th Gate speed. And Kisame is someone who could keep up with V1 Killer Bee. The bigger problem for Gai is entering the Gates in the first place. He did so when everything else failed against Shoten Kisame. Because of the risk that comes with the backlash from overclocking his body, other characters like Jiraiya for example, especially prior to the war Arc, would enter their final form like SM before Gai would realize he needs to enter Gates. Hirudora more or less defeated Kisame despite being used underwater and having to clash with Daikodan.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 7, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> I have no problems with them being equals. It was one of the most clear cut rivalries in the series. What I have a problem with is you saying Gai can't be that strong because he's comparable to Kakashi. Because Kakashi is that strong and I think you're underselling him.



I agree Kakashi is strong but he can't compete with anything above mid kage as we have seen against Kakuzu... Pain... Zabuza, etc. Mostly because of his lackluster stamina.


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2019)

@ThirdRidoku 

1. Tsunade also knows about Gai speed and Gates; she has no reason to engage Gai without taking defensive measures against him; which means wrapping herself in Katsuya and using Katsuya to fight against him, relying on Katsuya defense to shield her form Gates; and Katsuya numbers to overwhelm Gai when he is in Base. Gai ether gets outlasted or makes a mistake and gets hit by Acid in Base; or he’s forced to use 8TH Gate to overcome Katsuya Byakugo defense and the match ends in a draw (or Tsunade still holding out long enough to survive 8TH Gate through hiding in different Katsuya divisions)

As far as not getting a chance to summon Gai doesn’t start in Gates; and in Base he is nowhere near fast enough to stop Kuchiyose; and even if he did land a blow on Tsunade while she attempted to summon; it’s something she can easily take and continue summoning. Tsunade was able to summon Katsuya after being torn in half. 

2. Why do you believe Madara V3 Susanoo is superior to Gaara defense? Gaara Sand Amor alone blocked the hits of Madara Rinbo clone without any damage (that sent Tailed Beast Flying); add on top of that Gaara mother shield Omni-directional defense which was casually blocking Joki Boi; and there is little reason to believe AT is going to get the job done; even Naruto considered Gaara defense above that of Sandaime Raikage and it’s dubious that AT would do anything to someone who can rank a FRS which he is inherently at an elemental disadvantage against. 

3. Being able to beat someone doesn’t mean he’s not inferior to that individual. Base-Gai gets trashed by Ei low-diff. So A) Ei can still beat Gai by killing him before he uses gates or in between Gate uses, but B) Ei is going to be better then Gai in many situations because he can consistently operate on a high level, while Gai can only do so in short bursts. Gai having a decent shot to beat Ei, because Ei is an ideal opponent for him, does necessarily mean he is a better Shinobi then Ei. 

4. Yes in those short bursts he does have a shot to beat Kages, but as I said that establishes the dynamic of Gai ether wins with High diff, or is defeated by his opponent Witt Low/Mid diff. So if Gai has 4/10 chance to beat his enemy high diff; but 6/10 will loose Low/Mid diff there is no way I’m going to see Gai as superior to said enemy. This is the case with every Kage and in most cases the odds are worse then that. 

As far as KIsame goes; Kisame is also inferior to nearly every Kage except debatably the weakest ones. It should also be noted that Kisame actually succeeded in his objective and outplayed Gai; getting the intel to Obito, while Gai failed. So we basically have ether A) Gai beating a Low-Kage with High diff or B) Gai loosing to a Low-Kage with High diff; a Low-Kage that Taijutsu was an ideal match up for. That really doesn’t do anything to change my evaluation of Gai being Low-Kage or on the border of Kage level, in reality it reaffirms that.


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## Shazam (Aug 7, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> @Shazam And There’s the root of out disagreement. You think that Gai was in the same general Tier as the Mid Kage. I think that Kishimoto clearly meant for Gai to be comfortably above them. Kisame was the strongest of them IMO and Gai defeated him in the ocean. Against Kakuzu, Deidara and Sasori... there best hope is to kill him before he opens the 6th or 7th Gate. Once he does he has more than enough DC to kill them and a massive enough speed advantage to avoid most of their attacks.



Gai was the worst possible match up for Kisame


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## 僕がキラだ (Aug 7, 2019)

Minus 8th gate, he's at worst an equal to Kisame and at best an equal to Kakashi, just as how it should be.


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Gai was the worst possible match up for Kisame


Kisame also isn’t Mid-Kage. It’s debatable that he’s the strongest among Konan and Deidara. However all 3 of them are at best Low-Kage; along the likes of Mei, Rasa, and BoS Gaara. So Gai high diffed or lost (Kisame did outplay him) someone who is at best borderline Low-Kage


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 7, 2019)

@Shazam Kishimoto actually wrote in Kisame saying that he had the advantage since they were fighting in the ocean. He was overpowered. This was after he’d drained Killerbee of his chakra, while Gai was trying to capture him alive and without the 8th Gate. And again, I don’t see the other Mid Akatsuki members doing any better. Their only real hope is to kill him in Base. The moment he opens the Gates, his speed becomes to great for them to land a hit, his striking speed means that he gets to attack first and his attacks are certainly powerful enough to kill any of these guys. I don’t think that any serious person can make the argument that Deidara, Kisame, Kakuzu or Sasori can beat Gated Gai. And I’m fully willing to debate this. Unlike the trump cards of some other characters (like Sage Mode, Frog Song or Kirin).... the Gates don’t need large prep time. He can open them up on the fly and all of his techniques are made to be used rapidly. MP unleashes 100s of punches so fast that he lights his limbs on fire. the 7th Gate only makes him significantly faster. It’s also worth mentioning, that the 6th Gate... as far as I know, doesn’t cause muscle tearing for him so he can use it for a lot longer than the 7th or the 8th Gate. If anyone has a scan proving me wrong, I’ll concede this point.

So yes. I’d consider him a High Kage.  Not on the higher end though. Although, I’d probably put him on the lower end or in the middle without the 8th Gate.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 7, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Kisame also isn’t Mid-Kage. It’s debatable that he’s the strongest among Konan and Deidara. However all 3 of them are at best Low-Kage; along the likes of Mei, Rasa, and BoS Gaara. So Gai high diffed or lost (Kisame did outplay him) someone who is at best borderline Low-Kage


Kisame was mid diffed at best and Kisame also outplayed Killerbee and Naruto.


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> @Shazam Kishimoto actually wrote in Kisame saying that he had the advantage since they were fighting in the ocean. He was overpowered. This was after he’d drained Killerbee of his chakra, while Gai was trying to capture him alive and without the 8th Gate. And again, I don’t see the other Mid Akatsuki members doing any better. Their only real hope is to kill him in Base. The moment he opens the Gates, his speed becomes to great for them to land a hit, his striking speed means that he gets to attack first and his attacks are certainly powerful enough to kill any of these guys. Unlike the Trump Cards of some other characters (like Sage Mode, Frog Song or Kirin).... the Gates don’t need large prep time. He can open them up on the fly and all of his techniques are made to be used rapidly. MP unleashes 100s of punches so fast that he lights his limbs on fire. the 7th Gate only makes him significantly faster. It’s also worth mentioning, that the 6th Gate... as far as I know, doesn’t cause muscle tearing for him so he can use it for a lot longer than the 7th or the 8th Gate. If anyone has a scan proving me wrong, I’ll concede this point.
> 
> So yes. I’d consider him a High Kage.  Not on the higher end though. Although, I’d probably put him on the lower end or in the middle without the 8th Gate.


Deidara would beat Gai in most situations as he is an ideal counter to Gai with his Long-Range combat; and before you say AT; Deidara can dodge AT with high speed flight or counter it with massive explosions. Gai also has no ability to deal with C4 or C3; and he can easily be defeated by the more tricky applications of C1/C2. 

Kakuzu would tank MP/AT with Domu and then kill Gai while he’s recovering from Gates. Even if Gai goes 8TH Gate he may loose if he doesn’t realize that he needs to destroy all the masked beasts. 

Konan would beat Gai; as the moment he uses Gates she can just hide using her ability to transform her paper into the landscape; and Gai outside of Gates can’t  injure her at all. She also is really deadly to Gai as he will try Taijutsu and just run into explosive Tags or paper shuriken 

So no all the other Akatsuki would do better then Kisame. That’s not to say Gai isn’t above Kisame, I believe he is but he’s not that far above him; and it’s debatable if the other Akatsuki are or not above Kisame.


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Kisame was mid diffed at best and Kisame also outplayed Killerbee and Naruto.


Gai couldn’t even move properly from over use off Gates and was going to die to Kisame trap; and failed his mission while Kisame succeeded. It’s absolutely ridiculous to call that Mid-diff

Killer B and Naruto were able to escape the water prison; Gai needed help as he was going to die. Though I agree Kisame was definitely the best Shinobi in that instance above Naruto and B; who acted like morons

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## DaVizWiz (Aug 7, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He’s definitely not even Mid-Kage; he’s inferior to every Kage in the verse.


He’s stronger than Mei and the Raikage.

The same is true for his partner Kakashi. 

Tsunade and Gaara are toss ups but neither can kill shinobi that Guy would be capable of.

Gaara and Tsunade however have much greater support and supplementary abilities.


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## Braiyan (Aug 7, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Konan would beat Gai; as the moment he uses Gates she can just hide using her ability to transform her paper into the landscape;



I love how the same Konan that couldn't dodge any of Jiraiya's attacks, is going to have time to recognise the danger in Gai using Gates, stop whatever she's currently doing, find a part of the landscape to blend into and fully camouflage herself, all before Gai torches her by punching really fast.


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## EliDZ (Aug 7, 2019)

People who say Gai(without 8th) can beat Gaara, Why? Because Rock Lee beat Gaara? Oh wait? It's like when people say Gaara is slow because he got outsped by the fasted guy in his generation. Literally anyone other genin would have gotten destroyed besides Neji. That doesn't make Gaara slow in fact it's the contrary. He's able to keep up and react to the speed. You ever notice Gaara never actually loses to speed. It's overwhelming offence that get's him. Does Guy without the 8th gate have what it takes to over whelm Gaara? Well let's see. A4 went through Sasuke's Susanoo like it was butter, while Gaara completely stopped A4's drop Kick casually. Which is both a speed and defense feat. Guy needs an insane amount of blunt force to get past Gaara's sand. Or a super precise and powerful piercing attack. He doesn't have either. 
Sorry for the little rant. On Topic how Guy stakes up to a mid Kage level ninja like Gaara I'd say he loses mid-high difficulty. SO that's still means he is in that range of tier. He's like Low to Mid Kage level. Exactly what you should expect of someone that goes toe to toe with Akatsuki members.


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> He’s stronger than Mei and the Raikage.
> 
> The same is true for his partner Kakashi.
> 
> ...


Why do you believe ether of the masters are stronger then Mei and Ei?

Gaara and Tsunade vs Gai/Kakashi; is ether Mid/Low diff win for them or Gai wins via a draw. And what Shinobi can Gai beat that they cant?


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2019)

Braiyan said:


> I love how the same Konan that couldn't dodge any of Jiraiya's attacks, is going to have time to recognise the danger in Gai using Gates, stop whatever she's currently doing, find a part of the landscape to blend into and fully camouflage herself, all before Gai torches her by punching really fast.


How is it possible for Konan not to recognize the danger of Gates. Power literally explodes out of Gai. Konan is a careful and tactical fighter she is definitely not going to engage that directly. And she doesn’t need to find a part of the landscape she can blend into any part.

Konan got raped by Jiraiya because Jiraiya knew the perfect counter for her; that’s all.


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## Polar (Aug 7, 2019)

He is High Kage while in 7th Gate, but he cannot keep up for long so that put him back to Mid Kage.


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## hbcaptain (Aug 7, 2019)

He is a solid Mid Kage when he activates the 7th gate, more or less about the same as A4, comparable speed, more firepower (Hirudora) but no defense at all.
Now, he can't keep the 7th gate for the long run and Hirudora isn't something he can launch like he walks, he certainly can't use it many times per fight, so overall he is a low Kage, but very close to the mid realm.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 7, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Why do you believe ether of the masters are stronger then Mei and Ei?
> 
> Gaara and Tsunade vs Gai/Kakashi; is ether Mid/Low diff win for them or Gai wins via a draw. And what Shinobi can Gai beat that they cant?


Because they would kill them mainly.

The other aspect being they’re not one trick ponies, unlike Mei and Raikage.

One stands there and relies entirely on mid/long range nature transformations, the other relies entirely on brute force with an attack range of 1 meter.

Kakashi is as versatile as it gets with stealth, trickery and speed and has the pinnacle of nature transformation along with hand seal reading, chakra reading and pre-cog. His trump card is leagues above any technique the two Kage possess.

Guy is faster, physically stronger, and more versatile than both Kage. AT & MP are stronger and faster than all of Mei’s Jutsu and Guy physically would dominate A in CQC.


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## Braiyan (Aug 7, 2019)

Turrin said:


> How is it possible for Konan not to recognize the danger of Gates. Power literally explodes out of Gai. Konan is a careful and tactical fighter she is definitely not going to engage that directly.



Never said that Konan won't recognise the danger of Gates or that she would engage that directly, so these are all moot points. What I did say is she's not going to see Gates, then have time to change whatever course of action she's currently employing into "blend into the landscape" before Gai punches.



Turrin said:


> And she doesn’t need to find a part of the landscape she can blend into any part.



Doesn't matter. With all the opportunities she had to dodge something, ,  "blend into the landscape" never even came up as an option. So I have no idea why I should believe she would even think of doing that here and pull it off before Gai sends a couple hundred fireballs in her direction.



Turrin said:


> Konan got raped by Jiraiya because Jiraiya knew the perfect counter for her



And because she employed exactly 0% of the strategy you're suggesting she will employ here, even with knowledge on Jiraiya and his jutsu.


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Because they would kill them mainly.
> 
> The other aspect being they’re not one trick ponies, unlike Mei and Raikage.
> 
> ...



Mei hard counters Sharingan with Mist; and outside of Sharingan Kakashi can’t compete with Acid and Mei large scale Suitons. 

Gai is highly likely to loose to Acid; considering his CQC style.

——-

Gai and Kakashi are one trick ponies when it comes to Kage level; Sharingan and Gates; so I’m not sure why you believe they are more versatile then that one all of their other moves are not at Kage level.

——

Mei elemental Ninjutsu is effective at all ranges; in-daft Acid mist is one of the best short range elemental Techniques in the manga.

I agree Ei is limited to his CQC Nin-Tai, but that just makes him a one trick poney too; but he can use his one-trick much more consistently then Kakashi and Gai can use Sharingan and Gates.


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2019)

Braiyan said:


> Never said that Konan won't recognise the danger of Gates or that she would engage that directly, so these are all moot points. What I did say is she's not going to see Gates, then have time to change whatever course of action she's currently employing into "blend into the landscape" before Gai punches.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gai punching Konan does nothing; and whether she could do something else depends on how far away she is from Gai when he activated Gates.

She didn’t realize what it was or what effect it would have on her that’s why she didn’t dodge; unlike against Gates which are an apparent threat. 

She didn’t know about Jiraiya Oil; he had to explain it to her and why it countered her


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 7, 2019)

Turrin said:


> How is it possible for Konan not to recognize the danger of Gates. Power literally explodes out of Gai. Konan is a careful and tactical fighter she is definitely not going to engage that directly. And she doesn’t need to find a part of the landscape she can blend into any part.
> 
> Konan got raped by Jiraiya because Jiraiya knew the perfect counter for her; that’s all.


It’s not just that Jiraiya knew how to defeat her (although you’d think that in the decades since he trained her she would have developed a cover for that weakness). She was to slow to react. Gai’s attack speed is significantly faster than Jiraiya and we have no reason to believe that she can tank his higher Gated techniques.


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## Alita (Aug 7, 2019)

By war arc he is unquestionably high kage. People still claiming otherwise at this point are just in denial.


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> It’s not just that Jiraiya knew how to defeat her (although you’d think that in the decades since he trained her she would have developed a cover for that weakness). She was to slow to react. Gai’s attack speed is significantly faster than Jiraiya and we have no reason to believe that she can tank his higher Gated techniques.


She did react; she put up a guard; she just didn’t know the Oil would effect her that way. Jiraiya thought of a counter she wasn’t aware off. As far as her reflexes go we’ve seen Konan react to Obito ST warp so the idea that she couldn’t react to Jiraiya Oil blast doesn’t make sense


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## Braiyan (Aug 7, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Gai punching Konan does nothing;



Gai has access to some Gated techniques which he performs by punching. When I said punch, I meant he will be using Asa Kujaku.



Turrin said:


> and whether she could do something else depends on how far away she is from Gai when he activated Gates.



Considering how quickly Gai can close the distance in the 6th Gate, the range Asa Kujaku has, and the distance Konan typically fights at, she won't have time to do much IMO, much less perfectly hide herself.



Turrin said:


> She didn’t realize what it was or what effect it would have on her that’s why she didn’t dodge; unlike against Gates which are an apparent threat.



Why would Konan register Gates as an apparent threat if as far as Konan knows, Gai is a close range fighter, and according to your own logic, "punching her does nothing"?



Turrin said:


> She didn’t know about Jiraiya Oil



But she knows Jiraiya, and she knows he helped develop her jutsu, meaning he would have an idea of its weaknesses and would also be an apparent threat. If you are going to argue that she had so little knowledge on Jiraiya's oil jutsu that she couldn't even recognise that it was oil, then that's all the more reason why she should have opted to dodge it. Yet she never attempted to do that or dodge his earlier Katon, or employ any of this strategy you're sure she will use against Gai, who in terms of comparative fame is a nobody.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 7, 2019)

Turrin said:


> She did react; she put up a guard; she just didn’t know the Oil would effect her that way. Jiraiya thought of a counter she wasn’t aware off. As far as her reflexes go we’ve seen Konan react to Obito ST warp so the idea that she couldn’t react to Jiraiya Oil blast doesn’t make sense


I don’t remember all of that, but I’ll say that Gated Gai’s attack speed is objectively far faster than Jiraiyas and all of his best techniques are easily accessible without the need for prep time. Mona s only hope of beating Gai is to kill him before he starts opening up Gates. If he does, it’s all over for her.


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## Kisaitaparadise (Aug 7, 2019)

Yeah people just be 2 salty to admit it


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 7, 2019)

Turrin said:


> How is it possible for Konan not to recognize the danger of Gates. Power literally explodes out of Gai. Konan is a careful and tactical fighter she is definitely not going to engage that directly. And she doesn’t need to find a part of the landscape she can blend into any part.
> 
> Konan got raped by Jiraiya because Jiraiya knew the perfect counter for her; that’s all.


I have to address this. You say that Konan is a very careful and tactical fighter, yet she didn’t adequately prepare to face Jiraiya even though she knew him. Pain tells her to kill him if she could.






She attacks Jiraiya. He dodges her and spits oil. I think this fight was shorter than Dosu vs. Choji. If she could have dodged it, she would have.





Jiraiya took advantage of his knowledge of her like any good ninja would and stomped her with at best low diff. Arguably no diff. In all the years that they’d been separated and even in the moment when she knew that she’d be facing Jiraiya, she never prepared a cover for this weakness. Puppet masters aren’t good at close combat, so Sasori created a shell to protect him while he manipulates his dolls. Deidara wanted to defeat Itachi, so he trained his eye to see through illusions. Konan didn’t prepare.

You’ve said before that Gai isn’t very smart. Obviously he’s nowhere near as smart as people like Kakashi, Hiruzen, Minato and Itachi who are all legitimate geniuses. I do think that it’s worth contrasting though. When Gai confronted Itachi he did take into consideration how he was going to fight him. He knew Itachi and he had a general idea of his abilities so when he came into the fight he doesn’t look into Itachi’s eyes.



When he picks up Kakashi he’s clearly looking down at Itachis feet.



Asuma and Kurenai are sitting ducks, but Gai explains to them how to avoid getting caught in Sharingan Genjutsu. They open their eyes.



He has Kurenai (the weaker of the two), take Kakashi to the medical corps and uses Asuma as backup. Before confronting them he made sure to send for reinforcements. Ultimately, his planning and preparation convinced Itachi to retreat.

So Konan faced someone stronger than herself that she knew and she was curbstomped in part, because she didn’t prepare. Gai faced someone that he knew and that was stronger than himself (8th Gate restricted) and defused what seemed to be a hopeless situation. He chased them off and saved his friends. Granted, maybe she has a better prep feat that I’m forgetting, but against Jiraiya she objectively performed poorly.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 7, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Mei hard counters Sharingan with Mist; and outside of Sharingan Kakashi can’t compete with Acid and Mei large scale Suitons.
> 
> Gai is highly likely to loose to Acid; considering his CQC style.
> 
> ...


1) Why can’t Kakashi counter her Suitons with his own Suitons? He has a mastery of all 5 Elemental types IIRC.

2) That assumes that the acid would be able to touch someone with Gai’s speed. Gai was capable of dealing with the Six Tails acid.

3) Kakashi is one of the most versatile ninja in the series. I’d easily say that he’s more versatile than the Gokage and probably every Akatsuki member below Itachi. He’s more versatile than Tsunade’s too although Jiraiya and Orochimaru are about as versatile as him. Gai’s a lot less versatile than Kakashi, but he’s still a Taijutsu master, a kenjutsu master, has super strength, speed, durability, great stamina, can heal himself with the 2nd Gate, create afterimages with his speed and with the highest Gates his attacks take on the equivalent of katons and futons that he can use at any range. He can also simulate flight by kicking the air although I think that might be exclusive to the 8th Gate.


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## Symmetry (Aug 7, 2019)

I have him as sanin level ish

So high kage


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## X III (Aug 7, 2019)

My High Kage bracket includes the likes of KCM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, Pain, Minato, etc. 

I have 7th Gate Guy getting pummeled by these names, so I have him at mid to high end Mid Kage. Same ballpark as the Sannin.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Aug 7, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Tsunade also knows about Gai speed and Gates; she has no reason to engage Gai without taking defensive measures against him; which means wrapping herself in Katsuya and using Katsuya to fight against him, relying on Katsuya defense to shield her form Gates; and Katsuya numbers to overwhelm Gai when he is in Base. Gai ether gets outlasted or makes a mistake and gets hit by Acid in Base; or he’s forced to use 8TH Gate to overcome Katsuya Byakugo defense and the match ends in a draw (or Tsunade still holding out long enough to survive 8TH Gate through hiding in different Katsuya divisions)
> 
> As far as not getting a chance to summon Gai doesn’t start in Gates; and in Base he is nowhere near fast enough to stop Kuchiyose; and even if he did land a blow on Tsunade while she attempted to summon; it’s something she can easily take and continue summoning. Tsunade was able to summon Katsuya after being torn in half.



Base Gai was much faster than Kakashi since Part One, as per Sasuke's statement:

*Spoiler*: _Gai's speed_ 









 Gai was fast enough to chase down Obito and engage him in CQC. Tsunade first needs to weave seals to activate healing, then weave another set of seals and bend down on the ground to summon katsuya. Gai isn't just gonna stand there and watch that all happen. His optimal range is close range. So He is closing the distance. And even if Tsunade gets the summon off, it doesn't matter. When people summon any respectably sized summoning animal, they almost always appear directly on top of them, because the summons are spawned in directly beneath the summoner:



So if Gai is within several feet of Tsunade when she completes the summon, both of them will be standing on top of Katsuya. And from there Gai traps her in his taijutsu assault. And that is in Base. Gai in the war arc has opened with gates a few times, and there is no way Tsunade is weaving all those seals before he finishes opening the Gates and closes the distance. And There is nothing Katsuya can do to stop Gai from beating up Tsunade and taking her lunch money with Asakaju/Hirudora. 


Your scenario is creative, but I don't think it fits Tsunade's style. You would think that would be a viable strategy when she was running around with two susano'o swords in her chest when fighting against  Edo Madara of all people And even when she battled her fellow Sannin, she never used Katsuyu in that manner.  She has used Katsuya to protect others and heal others more so than herself.   It also neglects the summoning time limit for Katsuyu as well. I doubt that Base Gai would be overwhelmed by the acid attack, something that a large target like Manda evaded without much trouble, if he is fighting defensively. And in Base he should have plenty of stamina, and Tsunade hasn't shown anything else in terms of ranged attacks, and going into CQC is off the table as a win condition.

Not saying that hiding in Katsuya isn't a countermeasure to Gai's more powerful attacks, but that assumes that Tsunade is prepared enough and able enough to employ such a thing.




Turrin said:


> 2. Why do you believe Madara V3 Susanoo is superior to Gaara defense? Gaara Sand Amor alone blocked the hits of Madara Rinbo clone without any damage (that sent Tailed Beast Flying); add on top of that Gaara mother shield Omni-directional defense which was casually blocking Joki Boi; and there is little reason to believe AT is going to get the job done; even Naruto considered Gaara defense above that of Sandaime Raikage and it’s dubious that AT would do anything to someone who can rank a FRS which he is inherently at an elemental disadvantage against.




Because we don't know how strong Hirudora is. We know it had no effect on Juubidara, but its also implied to have done a hefty amount of damage to Regular rinne Madara if not completely destroyed his V3 Susano'o. So its somewhere in between those two. Third Raikage's durability is questionable. He was injured by Rasenshuriken. He didn't completely tank it. And there is evidence that Naruto's Senpou Rasengan possibly cracked his arm when he hit it in order to drive A3's nukite into his chest. Gaara tanking the rinbo clone susano'o sword is impressive but,  Gaara himself acknowledged the durability of Madara's susano'o. And none of his attacks were able to overpower or bust it. They both tanked attacks from the other. I currently see nothing that portrays Madara's V3 Susano'o to be necessarily weaker in *durability.*  If there was truly a clear  difference in durability, then Madara's sword would have broke on contact with Gaara's sand shields, just like  Kimimaro's bone spear broke when he applied his maximum strength into attempting to pierce the shield of Shukaku back in the SRA. Even Tsunade in her strongest form only cracked the rib cage with her punch, and needed help from enhanced Ayy just to bust the rib cage entirely.





Turrin said:


> 3. Being able to beat someone doesn’t mean he’s not inferior to that individual. Base-Gai gets trashed by Ei low-diff. So A) Ei can still beat Gai by killing him before he uses gates or in between Gate uses, but B) Ei is going to be better then Gai in many situations because he can consistently operate on a high level, while Gai can only do so in short bursts. Gai having a decent shot to beat Ei, because Ei is an ideal opponent for him, does necessarily mean he is a better Shinobi then Ei.



I would only consider someone superior to someone else if they win 9-10 times out of ten, regardless of difficulty.  If the other character can win two or more times out of ten then they aren't inferior. The characters are then roughly in the same tier, with one having an advantage. Take Deidara vs Gaara for example. Deidara won that fight, but he also could have easily lost if Gaara grabbed his head instead of his arm and crushed it with sand coffin. or Part One Zabuza vs Part one kakashi. That fight literally went either way.  I am not convinced myself that Gai can beat Ei 10/10, but I would give Gai an advantage.






Turrin said:


> Yes in those short bursts he does have a shot to beat Kages, but as I said that establishes the dynamic of Gai ether wins with High diff, or is defeated by his opponent Witt Low/Mid diff. So if Gai has 4/10 chance to beat his enemy high diff; but 6/10 will loose Low/Mid diff there is no way I’m going to see Gai as superior to said enemy. This is the case with every Kage and in most cases the odds are worse then that.
> 
> As far as KIsame goes; Kisame is also inferior to nearly every Kage except debatably the weakest ones. It should also be noted that Kisame actually succeeded in his objective and outplayed Gai; getting the intel to Obito, while Gai failed. So we basically have ether A) Gai beating a Low-Kage with High diff or B) Gai loosing to a Low-Kage with High diff; a Low-Kage that Taijutsu was an ideal match up for. That really doesn’t do anything to change my evaluation of Gai being Low-Kage or on the border of Kage level, in reality it reaffirms that.



Kisame has watched someone as battle smart as Itachi fight for years, has bijuu levels of stamina, great durability, incredible physical strength,  and is literally called the Tailless Tailed Beast.  While he is prideful and aggressive in demeanor, he showed excellent analytical skills (such as immediately deciphering the intent behind Killer Bee's mid ranged attacks) and good overall IQ, such as substituting out with a clone mid battle against Killer Bee in order to further his goals for spying on the alliance.  He has good reactions and combat speed,  being able to perceive and counter attack V1 Bee. And Samehada has the excellent ability to interrupt most ninjutsu activation thanks to samehada's chakra absorption, and while he can't asborb most ninjutsu with Samehada he can still counter attacks like Rasengan and has the kendo skills and stats to overwhelm Base Gai.  Kisame is someone who I see beating Base Jiraiya, though losing to Sage Mode Jiraiya. I can see him beating Tsunade as well. And he beats A4 and A3 thanks to matchup advantages.  That's off the top of my head. The main point about Hirudora is that it more or less defeated him despite Daikodan being a massive attack to intercept, and Kisame , as durable as he is, was still heavily injured by it. There are several Mid Kage characters who have no answer to Hirudora once it is launched. 

Gai shouldn't be a low kage given that he can beat several Mid Kage Tiers in the 7th Gate. Its highly situational I admit, so I understand your stance.


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> I don’t remember all of that, but I’ll say that Gated Gai’s attack speed is objectively far faster than Jiraiyas and all of his best techniques are easily accessible without the need for prep time. Mona s only hope of beating Gai is to kill him before he starts opening up Gates. If he does, it’s all over for her.


Look man Gai does not start a match in Gates right next to his opponent ready to use AT/MP; so what your saying isn’t accurate. As we discussed in other threads Gai needs to activate Gates and then launch MP/AT which needs to cross the distance towards the enemy. Why would Konan whose has high speed flight choose to say right next to Gai as he activates Gates and attack; she isn’t. She’s going to immediately fly in the opposite direction and hide; how successful depends on the battlefield of course.


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> I have to address this. You say that Konan is a very careful and tactical fighter, yet she didn’t adequately prepare to face Jiraiya even though she knew him. Pain tells her to kill him if she could.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think it’s more logical to assume Konan never imagine Jiraiya as an enemy due to her emotional ties to him and thus never prepared herself for a fight against him. In contrast with Obito we see she is a very tactical fighter that figured out his weakness and ran countless simulations to ensure success. I don’t think it’s fair to focus on the Jiraiya display and ignore that one


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> 1) Why can’t Kakashi counter her Suitons with his own Suitons? He has a mastery of all 5 Elemental types IIRC.
> 
> 2) That assumes that the acid would be able to touch someone with Gai’s speed. Gai was capable of dealing with the Six Tails acid.
> 
> 3) Kakashi is one of the most versatile ninja in the series. I’d easily say that he’s more versatile than the Gokage and probably every Akatsuki member below Itachi. He’s more versatile than Tsunade’s too although Jiraiya and Orochimaru are about as versatile as him. Gai’s a lot less versatile than Kakashi, but he’s still a Taijutsu master, a kenjutsu master, has super strength, speed, durability, great stamina, can heal himself with the 2nd Gate, create afterimages with his speed and with the highest Gates his attacks take on the equivalent of katons and futons that he can use at any range. He can also simulate flight by kicking the air although I think that might be exclusive to the 8th Gate.


1. Because he Suiton is stronger

2. Gai can’t react to something he doesn’t see coming; unlike Rokubi Acid which is an apparent threat; Mei is not as even Sasuke with Sharingan didn’t realize it was acidic till it melted through his Susanoo and started burning his skin

3. No he’s not because everything he has if fodder on the Kage level outside Sharingan.


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Base Gai was much faster than Kakashi since Part One, as per Sasuke's statement:
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Gai's speed_
> 
> ...


1. Kisame had time to employ 1,000 Feeding Sharks and Daikodan in response to Gain opening Gates both of which aren’t as fast as summoning Katsuya. So i simply don’t buy the idea that Gai is, opening gates, closing this distance, and launching his attack before Tsunade can summon Katsuya. 

2. Tsuande did pull of Katsuya to defend against CST and whatever Madara final attack was; if Gates are a true danger to her (IE she can’t table them with her normal Byakugo) she will do the same here; unless you believe she can tank them with Byakugo alone in which case the match is even more in Tsunade favor.

3. Gai after using Gates couldn’t avoid Kisame water prison or shark; so in that condition yes he will be hit by Acid and easily killed by Katsuya.

——

1. Wait so your saying because Madaea Susanoo sword didn’t shatter when it hit a minor sand wall (not even Gaara Mother defense) it’s equal to Gaara defense? That makes no sense. Ei3 defended a move that has better feats then AT; FRS that he’s naturally inferior too, and Gaara defense is better then that; in the entire war Gaara was never pierced through but his defense not even a single scratched. Their is simply no way your convincing me an attack Kisame survived is overcoming such an OP defense 

——

1. I’m sorry that’s a silly metric to go off of; circumstance and location matter so much very rarely can a character beat another 9/10 times unless the gap is massive. But based on your own logic then Gai isn’t better then Low-Kages as he isn’t beating them 9/10 times

—

Kisame was going to be fodderized by bade Jiraiya Toad stomach if not for Itachi; so yeah I don’t doubt that he’s a good Ninja, just like I don’t doubt Gai is, but Kisame is Low-Kage if that. As he like Gai has low odds of winning against any Kage. Albeit I guess I’m you view where someone needs to go 9/10 to be better that may not be true.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 8, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Look man Gai does not start a match in Gates right next to his opponent ready to use AT/MP; so what your saying isn’t accurate. As we discussed in other threads Gai needs to activate Gates and then launch MP/AT which needs to cross the distance towards the enemy. Why would Konan whose has high speed flight choose to say right next to Gai as he activates Gates and attack; she isn’t. She’s going to immediately fly in the opposite direction and hide; how successful depends on the battlefield of course.


1) It’s completely accurate. Reread my posts. I said that their only chance to beat him is by killing him before he starts opening the Gates. My point was that Gated Gai is decisively above every Akatsuki member short of Itachi, Pain and Tobi.

2) You say that it needs to cross the distance as if that matters. With the speed of his attacks, none of these characters would be able to dodge it and only a handful of characters have the means to survive his attacks.

3) She doesn’t have a choice. Gated Gai is significantly faster than her so he would get to make the first move.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 8, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I think it’s more logical to assume Konan never imagine Jiraiya as an enemy due to her emotional ties to him and thus never prepared herself for a fight against him. In contrast with Obito we see she is a very tactical fighter that figured out his weakness and ran countless simulations to ensure success. I don’t think it’s fair to focus on the Jiraiya display and ignore that one


To be honest, I don’t remember much about the other fight IIRC, she tried to destroy him with a bunch of paper bombs, but he used Izanagi to survive it. Wether she considered Jiraiya a potential enemy isn’t relevant though. The fact that her paper could be soaked was a glaring weakness and she never tried to rectify that in the 2 decades since she parted ways with Jiraiya. Even then, couldn’t she have attacked him from long range to avoid getting soaked? It’s a bad showing.



Turrin said:


> 1. Because he Suiton is stronger
> 
> 2. Gai can’t react to something he doesn’t see coming; unlike Rokubi Acid which is an apparent threat; Mei is not as even Sasuke with Sharingan didn’t realize it was acidic till it melted through his Susanoo and started burning his skin
> 
> 3. No he’s not because everything he has if fodder on the Kage level outside Sharingan.


1) Are they? Kakashi’s Suitons at the beginning of the series were massive and his chakra reserves are significantly better during the War Arc.

2) You’re argument seems to be that she’d kill him in Base. That’s wat it seems to boil down to. I’m talking about Gated Gai. Gated Gai would crush her. His aura would blow away the mist, he’s to fast to hit, he can attack at any range with techniques that are to large, destructive and fast for her to stop him.

3) They aren’t. Kakuzu is Kage Level and he killed him once with Chidori. He also has Rasengan, a mastery of all 5 Elemental styles, a near mastery of both Taijutsu and Genjutsu, he can open Gates. And he hasn’t his Sharingan. He also has a genius level intellect with a sense of smell keener than a ninja hounds.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 8, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> 1) It’s completely accurate. Reread my posts. I said that their only chance to beat him is by killing him before he starts opening the Gates. My point was that Gated Gai is decisively above every Akatsuki member short of Itachi, Pain and Tobi.
> 
> 2) You say that it needs to cross the distance as if that matters. With the speed of his attacks, none of these characters would be able to dodge it and only a handful of characters have the means to survive his attacks.
> 
> 3) She doesn’t have a choice. Gated Gai is significantly faster than her so he would get to make the first move.


The problem is the speed of Gai attacks at a distance with Gates has not been impressive to the extent your asserting it to be; we saw Kisame who is not that fast (and wasn’t even that far away from Gai) twice use a Suiton Technique in response to Gai using Gates, before Gai could blitz him. If Kisame can do this I don’t see how characters with superior reflexes wouldn’t be able to.


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## Turrin (Aug 8, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> To be honest, I don’t remember much about the other fight IIRC, she tried to destroy him with a bunch of paper bombs, but he used Izanagi to survive it. Wether she considered Jiraiya a potential enemy isn’t relevant though. The fact that her paper could be soaked was a glaring weakness and she never tried to rectify that in the 2 decades since she parted ways with Jiraiya. Even then, couldn’t she have attacked him from long range to avoid getting soaked? It’s a bad showing.
> 
> 
> 1) Are they? Kakashi’s Suitons at the beginning of the series were massive and his chakra reserves are significantly better during the War Arc.
> ...



1. Okay so maybe go back and re-read the other fight instead of just evaluating Konan only on her lower end showing 

2. Yes they are; and it’s not even close; and Mei accomplishes hers without a water source while Kakashi’s your comparing hers too was done with access to a water source. Kakashi without a water source hasn’t even shown a single large Suiton

3. I’m aware your talking about Gated Gai, but for the 50th time Gai doesn’t start in Gates. So Gates are irrelevant if Gai doesn’t survive long enough to use them

4. He killed his Doton heart which is weak to Raiton with the help of Team 10. Yeah that doesn’t mean those moves are anything to a Kage. And all the other Jutsu you cited are fodder. Raikiri is his best Jutsu outside Sharigan (which he needs Sharingan to perform by the way); and even the weakest Kage like Rasa would completely fodderize Raikiri with casuals Gold Dust Tsunamis and shit. It’s just not on that level.


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## Reznor (Aug 8, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> I have to address this. You say that Konan is a very careful and tactical fighter, yet she didn’t adequately prepare to face Jiraiya even though she knew him. Pain tells her to kill him if she could.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They had just learn Jiraiya got there and the plan was to just hold him off until Pain got there. No prep was really involved, and if Konan didn't present herself, they might have just lost track of him.

Konan vs Tobi is a better example.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 8, 2019)

Reznor said:


> They had just learn Jiraiya got there and the plan was to just hold him off until Pain got there. No prep was really involved, and if Konan didn't present herself, they might have just lost track of him.
> 
> Konan vs Tobi is a better example.


Gai had just learned that Itachi was back and he prepped well enough to convince him to retreat. Konan could have tried to stay out of his range at least or she could have found a way to cover her weakness. It’s just a really bad showing. Granted, she might have performed better against Tobi. I don’t really remember that fight very well.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 8, 2019)

Turrin said:


> The problem is the speed of Gai attacks at a distance with Gates has not been impressive to the extent your asserting it to be; we saw Kisame who is not that fast (and wasn’t even that far away from Gai) twice use a Suiton Technique in response to Gai using Gates, before Gai could blitz him. If Kisame can do this I don’t see how characters with superior reflexes wouldn’t be able to.


1) Kisame was fast enough to keep up with Killerbee and Killerbee is far faster than Konan or even Jiraiya.

2) Kisame didn’t respond to Gai’s attacks. Gai responded to Kisame’s tracks.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 8, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Okay so maybe go back and re-read the other fight instead of just evaluating Konan only on her lower end showing
> 
> 2. Yes they are; and it’s not even close; and Mei accomplishes hers without a water source while Kakashi’s your comparing hers too was done with access to a water source. Kakashi without a water source hasn’t even shown a single large Suiton
> 
> ...


1) She has to showings and they’re both equally valid. Just tell me what happened or at least give me the chapter numbers. I don’t remember. This was years ago.

2) That might be, but he still has 4 other elements that he can use.

3) No. Its completely relevant. I acknowledged that Base Gai can and likely would be killed by the Mid Akatsuki. My point was that the higher Gates put him comfortably above all of them. By arguing that they’d kill him before he used his stronger techniques, you’re basically acknowledging that I’m right here. The only Akatsuki members that have what it takes to deal with 6/7 Gates Gai and up are Itachi, Pain and Obito.l

4) Kakashi has all 5 Elemental types so he can use a superior element against any ninja he’s fighting. Rasengan is fodder? Didn’t Kakashi use Raikiri to counter Tailed Beasts during the war?


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## Turrin (Aug 8, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> 1) Kisame was fast enough to keep up with Killerbee and Killerbee is far faster than Konan or even Jiraiya.
> 
> 2) Kisame didn’t respond to Gai’s attacks. Gai responded to Kisame’s tracks.


Kisame was not fast enough to keep up with Killer-B; Samehada was reacting to Killer-B by sensing its chakra. 

We saw Asume keep up with Kisame no problem; and he is not faster then these characters. Kisame also has a 4 in speed in the Data-Book which is inferior to Jiraiya; and likely inferior to Konan who was reacting to Obito Kamui warps. 

2. I doesn’t matter who is respond to who. 6TH Gate Gai lands near Kisame; and Kisame is able to cast 1K sharks before Gai blitz him. Gai opens the 7TH Gate and Kisame is able to cast Daikodan before Gai blitz him. So why should I expect characters faster then Kisame would be unable to cast Jutsu at Mid/Long Range before Gai blitz them.

What you seem unwilling to acknowledge is that according to you Gai should have blitzed Kisame before he could cast a Jutsu, but that the exact opposite of what we saw.


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## Turrin (Aug 8, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> 1) She has to showings and they’re both equally valid. Just tell me what happened or at least give me the chapter numbers. I don’t remember. This was years ago.
> 
> 2) That might be, but he still has 4 other elements that he can use.
> 
> ...


1. Chapter 505-506 I think where she fights Obito


2. Yeah no of which will do dick against Mei Suitons; which are far larger then any of his elemental Jutsu.

3. How do Gates put Gai above someone if he looses Low/Mid Diff before he gets a chance to use Gates to that same person. That’s nonsense.

4. That’s not how the elemental wheel works; he needs to use a superior element that is on the same level as theirs; since all of Kakashi elemental technique are fodder in comparison to Kages; they aren’t doing anything and really haven’t done anything in the manga

Like Kakashi tiny doton wall would be raped by Mei massive suitons


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 8, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Kisame was not fast enough to keep up with Killer-B; Samehada was reacting to Killer-B by sensing its chakra.
> 
> We saw Asume keep up with Kisame no problem; and he is not faster then these characters. Kisame also has a 4 in speed in the Data-Book which is inferior to Jiraiya; and likely inferior to Konan who was reacting to Obito Kamui warps.
> 
> ...


I’ve been over this many times. Gai didn’t blitz Kisame, because he didn’t need to. His primary goal in that arc was to recover the scroll. When he needed to blitz Kisame in Chapter 258 he did just that. You can’t seriously be arguing that Konan and Jiraiya are nearly as fast as Gai with the higher Gates.


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## Turrin (Aug 8, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> I’ve been over this many times. Gai didn’t blitz Kisame, because he didn’t need to. His primary goal in that arc was to recover the scroll. When he needed to blitz Kisame in Chapter 258 he did just that. You can’t seriously be arguing that Konan and Jiraiya are nearly as fast as Gai with the higher Gates.


Yes he did need to; if he blitz Kisame he could have KoD him and easily grabbed the shark. Your saying he intentionally made it more difficult for himself by allowing Kisame to cast Jutsu when he could have stopped him. That makes Gai a moron


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 8, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Chapter 505-506 I think where she fights Obito
> 
> 2. Yeah no of which will do dick against Mei Suitons; which are far larger then any of his elemental Jutsu.
> 
> ...


1) I’ll read it.

2) Because he’d trash them and we both know it. That’s why you’re arguing that they’d kill him before he opts for the Gates. Because we both know that Gated Gai would manhandle any of the mid Akatsuki members like he did to Kisame who’s probably the strongest of them.


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## Reznor (Aug 8, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Gai had just learned that Itachi was back and he prepped well enough to convince him to retreat.


 I was addressing the part about Konan, not Gai but since you mention it:

1. Looking at the feet was a strategy that he developed to fight Kakashi, not Itachi. He developed it much earlier and it was just also applicable here.
2. Itachi didn't retreat retreat because Gai showed up. On the basis of the motives presented then, he retreated because because the cavalry was going to arrived soon (Gai said the other Jonin are on the way), on the basis of the secret Konoha allegiance he still kinda had, he retreated because he didn't want to fight them anyway.

Itachi did retreat from Jiraiya, and Itachi & Kisame agreed that 2v1 they'd lose or draw Jiraiya. It's possible that Itachi was lying about that, but that still demonstrates that Jiraiya is quite a bit above Itachi's presented power and thus Gai's presented power too.

I do recall theorizing in P1 and early P2 times that Gai could be the perfect opponent to beat Itachi, since he had a sharigan counter nothing to copy, etc.


> Konan could have tried to stay out of his range at least or she could have found a way to cover her weakness. It’s just a really bad showing. Granted, she might have performed better against Tobi. I don’t really remember that fight very well.


 Sure. In-universe, her purpose was just to hold him off and he knew her jutsu well enough.
Out-of-universe, the main purpose was to set up the Pain vs Jiraiya fight and this wasn't the fight to give Jiraiya a bad showing.

The Tobi showing shows that she was extremely prepared for Tobi, who only got out of it by hiding for over 5 minutes, using a Jutsu we hadn't seen yet and losing a Sharigan.


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## Jackalinthebox (Aug 8, 2019)

Reznor said:


> Itachi did retreat from Jiraiya, and Itachi & Kisame agreed that 2v1 they'd lose or draw Jiraiya. It's possible that Itachi was lying about that, but that still demonstrates that Jiraiya is quite a bit above Itachi's presented power and thus Gai's presented power too.


SM Jiraiya > Base Jiraiya >= Itachi + Kisame > Itachi > Orochimaru?


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 8, 2019)

Reznor said:


> I was addressing the part about Konan, not Gai but since you mention it:
> 
> 1. Looking at the feet was a strategy that he developed to fight Kakashi, not Itachi. He developed it much earlier and it was just also applicable here.
> 2. Itachi didn't retreat retreat because Gai showed up. On the basis of the motives presented then, he retreated because because the cavalry was going to arrived soon (Gai said the other Jonin are on the way), on the basis of the secret Konoha allegiance he still kinda had, he retreated because he didn't want to fight them anyway.
> ...


1) And wetting paper is an obvious weakness for Konan that she didn’t prepare for over the decades since she left Jiraiya’s tutelage.

2) The other Jonin were coming, because Gai. Alex for them before confronting Itachi and Kisame. This is about preparing and again prepared.

2) My point wasn’t about comparing the power of Itachi, Jiraiya, Gai and Konan. It was just about how they prepared for heir fights.

3) Kishimoto didn’t have to make her look weak to hype up the Pain fight.

4) I still have to reread those chapters.


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## Turrin (Aug 8, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> 1) I’ll read it.
> 
> 2) Because he’d trash them and we both know it. That’s why you’re arguing that they’d kill him before he opts for the Gates. Because we both know that Gated Gai would manhandle any of the mid Akatsuki members like he did to Kisame who’s probably the strongest of them.


The problem is. Gai gets trashed by them in Base, and Gai will start the battle in Base and spend most of the battle in Base. So if we need to talk about Base-Gai ability to survive against them before we even get to a discuss off Gates. So unless you can convince me Gai survives their moves in Base and reaches Gates there no need for me to even get into the discussion of Gates.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 8, 2019)

Turrin said:


> The problem is. Gai gets trashed by them in Base, and Gai will start the battle in Base and spend most of the battle in Base. So if we need to talk about Base-Gai ability to survive against them before we even get to a discuss off Gates. So unless you can convince me Gai survives their moves in Base and reaches Gates there no need for me to even get into the discussion of Gates.


That’s not a problem at all.

1) Gai’s fast enough and skilled enough to stay alive long enough to utilize the Gates against almost any of these guys. How many times has he been killed before having the oppurtunity to open the Gates in the manga?

2) Unlike SM, the Gates. An he opened rapidly. They don’t need prep time. If someone would beat Base Jiraiya, but lose to SM Jiraiya. I wouldn’t say that he’s stronger than Jiraiya.

3) The reason that you don’t want to get into a discussion about the Gates, is because you and I both know now that he’d make short work out of any of them with the Gates. If you have to argue that a guy wouldn’t use his full arsenal to win a match, that says it all really. Ask yourself.. would any of these guys stand a chance against a bloodlusted Gai?


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## Turrin (Aug 8, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> That’s not a problem at all.
> 
> 1) Gai’s fast enough and skilled enough to stay alive long enough to utilize the Gates against almost any of these guys. How many times has he been killed before having the oppurtunity to open the Gates in the manga?
> 
> ...


1. And I disagree for the reasons I’ve already outlined, so can you now please address them instead of saying Gai Rapes in Gates?

2. If someone beat Jiraiya 6-7/10 times before he could active SM; he’s superior to Jiraiya. 

3. Some of them would stand a chance and some wouldn’t; depends heavily on location too.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 8, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Mei hard counters Sharingan with Mist; and outside of Sharingan Kakashi can’t compete with Acid and Mei large scale Suitons.
> 
> Gai is highly likely to loose to Acid; considering his CQC style.
> 
> ...


No she doesn’t. She can’t perform in the mist either and Kakashi is more likely to kill her in it with his elite hearing, scent detection and clear superior speed.

There’s a reason she only used it as a temporary smoke screen against Madara, and not when she was being gang banged by the Sharingan clones when according to you it’s an innate counter to Sharingan.

Guy survived an AT explosion at point blank in gates, and could literally obliterate Mei and her entire jutsu regimen with either AT or MP at literally any range. The moment he feels the acid he’ll throw his arms around and erase her with MP. This is all presuming the acid would even affect him at top speed running through it when he lights his own arms on fire 1,000+ times in a single attack acquiring no limb damage due to the velocity of his body pushing through and negating the environmental effects around him.

No they’re not. Kakashi is excellent at all ranges and in all forms of combat sans army killing, which Mei isn’t elite at either.

Guy is elite at all ranges and in all forms of combat including army killing and village destruction.

Mei is a stationary caster with above average AoE. When her elemental techniques fail, which they would against most Kage levels, she has no possible way to be effective. This ignoring the fact she has below average speed and her best defense is grade B suiton that most Kage levels could power through on their worst day.

Ei’s nintai is worthless against most Kage levels. The only way he wins most battles is if the start distance is appropriate to his initial blitz or his opponent can’t kill or outlast him.

On a general battlefield neither would apply. Armies start hundreds of meters away from each other and are stockpiled with medical ninja to recharge chakra and futon/Genjutsu users to kill him.

He has no AoE technique, he literally has to punch every target to kill them. He has no stealth techniques. He has below average strategic ability. He has no defensive techniques, he has no supporting techniques.

He would be the least effective mid Kage level on any given battlefield. Even Kakashi would kill more than him by merely using a bunshin to double killing time in melee, which is all Ei is good for anywhere.

There’s no way Konoha would choose Mei or the Raikage over Guy or Kakashi in any combat scenario, especially garnering knowledge of what they did in the war. They’re clearly superior shinobi, not just freaks or nature casters.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 8, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. And I disagree for the reasons I’ve already outlined, so can you now please address them instead of saying Gai Rapes in Gates?
> 
> 2. If someone beat Jiraiya 6-7/10 times before he could active SM; he’s superior to Jiraiya.
> 
> 3. Some of them would stand a chance and some wouldn’t; depends heavily on location too.


1) Reread the OP. This is about Gated Gai.

2) Assuming that they would beat Gai before he opened the Gates. Rock Lee could open them in the middle of blitzing Gaara. They can be opened on the fly. Not that it matters. If they beat someone with his arms tied behind his back, anchored to the floor and drugged... it doesn’t mean that they’re stronger. To make the case for these guys you have to have Gai killed in Base. That pretty much says it all. Just admit it. Gated Gai would take their lunch money.

3) Eh? Not really. Gated Gai would blitz these guys and overpower them.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 8, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yes he did need to; if he blitz Kisame he could have KoD him and easily grabbed the shark. Your saying he intentionally made it more difficult for himself by allowing Kisame to cast Jutsu when he could have stopped him. That makes Gai a moron


He’s a moron, but still smarter than Konan.

There’s no real argument to be had on this point. I already posted the scans of 6th Gate Gai blitzing Kisame. 7th Gate Gai is even faster. He punches the air so fast in the space of a panel that the friction sets his limbs ablaze over 100 times if I’m being conservative. That’s with the 6th Gate.


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## Turrin (Aug 8, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> No she doesn’t. She can’t perform in the mist either and Kakashi is more likely to kill her in it with his elite hearing, scent detection and clear superior speed.
> 
> There’s a reason she only used it as a temporary smoke screen against Madara, and not when she was being gang banged by the Sharingan clones when according to you it’s an innate counter to Sharingan.
> 
> ...


1. Mei showed she can make the density of the mIst great enough that it blocks Sharingan but he target can still be visually located; as seen in the Madara fight

2. Kakashi tires to attack Mei in the Mist he gets melted by Acidic Mist

3. The moment Gai feels the mist he’s dead; he doesn’t have a defense like Susanooo

4. Not on the Kage level; all his other Jutsu are fodder sans Sharingan / Sharingan supplimented attacks; a that level

5. I agree with you Ei is very limited on the Kage level but so are Kakashi and Gai; only difference is Ei can consistently use his strength while Gai and Kakashi can’t spam Gates and MS

6. Your exaggerate by saying Kakashi would perform better then Ei. Kakashi struggles with the Mist Swordsman for 24 hours; Ei would plow right through them with a division for backup. Ei can defeat far more individuals then Kakashi due to his speed and greater endurance

7. I wouldn’t call Ei Mid-Kage level; he’s low-kage 

8. We directly saw them choose these individuals over Kakashi and Gai; when the threat of Madara appeared they choose to summon the Gokage; including Mei and Ei not Kakashi and Gai.


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## Turrin (Aug 8, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> 1) Reread the OP. This is about Gated Gai.
> 
> 2) Assuming that they would beat Gai before he opened the Gates. Rock Lee could open them in the middle of blitzing Gaara. They can be opened on the fly. Not that it matters. If they beat someone with his arms tied behind his back, anchored to the floor and drugged... it doesn’t mean that they’re stronger. To make the case for these guys you have to have Gai killed in Base. That pretty much says it all. Just admit it. Gated Gai would take their lunch money.
> 
> 3) Eh? Not really. Gated Gai would blitz these guys and overpower them.



1. No it’s not; it’s about whether Gai is High-Kage, considering he spends most of his time in Base, that is the form most relevant to the discussion.

2. Rock Lee could open the 5TH Gate, not 6TH/7TH; stop citing false information or in not going to bother discussing something with you 

3. The author placed limitations on Gates for a reason. If he wanted people to only consider how strong Gai was with Gates, Base Gai would be as strong as 8TH Gate Gai. The separation is there because Gai weakness is that he spends most of the battle in Base. Saying I’m handicapping Gai because I’m accounting for the mechanics of his techniques and how he fights is completely bias on your part.


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## Turrin (Aug 8, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> He’s a moron, but still smarter than Konan.
> 
> There’s no real argument to be had on this point. I already posted the scans of 6th Gate Gai blitzing Kisame. 7th Gate Gai is even faster. He punches the air so fast in the space of a panel that the friction sets his limbs ablaze over 100 times if I’m being conservative. That’s with the 6th Gate.


So Gai is a moron who allows Kisame to use his Jutsu; okay then I’ll just say he will allow these characters to use their Jutsu too due to stupidity. Ether way at Mid/Long they will have time to cast Jutsu in response to Gates.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 8, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. No it’s not; it’s about whether Gai is High-Kage, considering he spends most of his time in Base, that is the form most relevant to the discussion.
> 
> 2. Rock Lee could open the 5TH Gate, not 6TH/7TH; stop citing false information or in not going to bother discussing something with you
> 
> 3. The author placed limitations on Gates for a reason. If he wanted people to only consider how strong Gai was with Gates, Base Gai would be as strong as 8TH Gate Gai. The separation is there because Gai weakness is that he spends most of the battle in Base. Saying I’m handicapping Gai because I’m accounting for the mechanics of his techniques and how he fights is completely bias on your part.


1) This is total nonsense. The Gates are how he fights and an essential part of his arsenal.

2) What are you on about. I said that Rock Lee opened the 5th Gate in the fly, because it indicates that they don’t need a large charge up time to be used. At any point he can slip in and out of then Gates to boost his speed and with the Gates, none of these guys are touching him.

3) No. I’m saying that you’re handicapping Gai, because you are. Almost every character has limitations on their techniques and drawbacks in using them. The Gates are part of how Gai fights and with the Gates he’d gloss these guys. We both know it so let’s just leave it at that.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 8, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So Gai is a moron who allows Kisame to use his Jutsu; okay then I’ll just say he will allow these characters to use their Jutsu too due to stupidity. Ether way at Mid/Long they will have time to cast Jutsu in response to Gates.


1) 

2) Cool. Now show me the calcs that indicate that they can deal with an attack with the speed of Asakujaku.


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## Turrin (Aug 8, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> 1)
> 
> 2) Cool. Now show me the calcs that indicate that they can deal with an attack with the speed of Asakujaku.



Ether Gai is a Moron or I don’t know distance matters... pick your poison ether way they will be able to cast Jutsu


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## Turrin (Aug 8, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> 1) This is total nonsense. The Gates are how he fights and an essential part of his arsenal.
> 
> 2) What are you on about. I said that Rock Lee opened the 5th Gate in the fly, because it indicates that they don’t need a large charge up time to be used. At any point he can slip in and out of then Gates to boost his speed and with the Gates, none of these guys are touching him.
> 
> 3) No. I’m saying that you’re handicapping Gai, because you are. Almost every character has limitations on their techniques and drawbacks in using them. The Gates are part of how Gai fights and with the Gates he’d gloss these guys. We both know it so let’s just leave it at that.



1. Never said they weren’t 

2. That the 5TH Gate is different then the 6TH/7TH; which have been shown to take longer to enter

3. I’m not glossing over them; I’m saying there Gai spends most of his time in Base therefore it is very critical to take that into consideration before even talking about Gates; you are glossing over Base-Gai and pretending hess always in Gates.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 8, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Ether Gai is a Moron or I don’t know distance matters... pick your poison ether way they will be able to cast Jutsu


What is this... I don’t even. Yes. Gai chose to wipe Kisame out in one move and they unleashed their attacks at best at the same time... if not Kisame striking first. I already provided evidence of Gai blitzing Kisame. It’s time to concede.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 8, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Never said they weren’t
> 
> 2. That the 5TH Gate is different then the 6TH/7TH; which have been shown to take longer to enter
> 
> 3. I’m not glossing over them; I’m saying there Gai spends most of his time in Base therefore it is very critical to take that into consideration before even talking about Gates; you are glossing over Base-Gai and pretending hess always in Gates.


Prove it. Show me the evidence. Where was it stated that the 5th Gate is unique in this? Isn’t it possible that the charge up time is to create tension and drama for narrative purposes? Lee at 13 and a Genin was able to open them up on the fly, but even if I assumed that the 6th or 7th Gate weren’t enough. The first 5 Gates should already make him significantly faster than any of these guys.

3) No. I’m pointing out that Gai at his best and with his full Arsenal’s wipes the floor with these guys. That was always my point.


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## ThirdRidoku (Aug 9, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Kisame had time to employ 1,000 Feeding Sharks and Daikodan in response to Gain opening Gates both of which aren’t as fast as summoning Katsuya. So i simply don’t buy the idea that Gai is, opening gates, closing this distance, and launching his attack before Tsunade can summon Katsuya.



That was because Gai had no reason to intercept, nor did he try to intercept.  Kisame's 1000 feeding sharks was never seen before, so Gai trying to charge in carelessly against an attack he knows nothing about would be careless, especially when he had no immediate backup in the middle of the ocean.  Kisame started weaving signs just as Gai landed in and Gai simply waited to see the nature of the attack. Summoning technique however is universal, and Gai uses it himself to summon his turtle. Even Kabuto immediately recognizes when Tsunade was about to summon Katsuyu in Part One, and Jiraiya too, and all three sannin summoned their boss summons at about the same time.. Once Gai sees Tsunade draw blood and  start to weave the summoning seals, he is closing the distance, because he knows Tsunade's summon. And as I said, even if she successfully summons, then what? Gai appears on top of Katsuya just the same, and kicks Tsunade into the air, like he did to Kisame, and as Rock Lee said, 'game over'.  And I don't think that summoning is faster than Daikodan. Summoning requires drawing blood, weaving the  5 seals Jiraiya stated in Part One, and bending down. Daikodan requires three seals iirc. And you have to remember, Gai's Goal wasn't to blitz Kisame once he entered the 7th Gate, he was first and foremost concerned about the massive amounts of  sharks he needed to kill so as to prevent the scroll from escaping. We saw that in a more neutral scenario, like against Juubidara, entering Gates and blitzing was his go to move, given that Juubidara wasn't going to take the initiative against him.





Turrin said:


> 2. Tsuande did pull of Katsuya to defend against CST and whatever Madara final attack was; if Gates are a true danger to her (IE she can’t table them with her normal Byakugo) she will do the same here; unless you believe she can tank them with Byakugo alone in which case the match is even more in Tsunade favor.



Against CST, Katsuya was already summoned. All she had to was release chakra so katsuya could protect all villagers. And I strongly believe even Asakaju is enough to kill Tsunade. Her durability isn't good enough to suggest she is tanking the attack, even with healing. Hirudora certainly one shots.  Against Madara, I don't recall her attempting to summon katsuya until after the 5 kage already got wiped out. She seemed to weave a seal of sorts when Madara was swinging with PS just before Itachi interrupted it by releasing the Edo Tensei, but weaving seals in response to a Gated Gai's speed is a terrible idea. It would be like Mifune vs Hanzo. Not to mention, she was pressured by Kabuto  in CQC in part one, even before the blood phobia thing came into play, someone who was Kakashi's peer, and self admittedly not that great at taijutsu. Gai should be much faster by statements and feats, and he is certainly much more skilled than either of them in taijutsu. So that's why I see it happening.




Turrin said:


> 3. Gai after using Gates couldn’t avoid Kisame water prison or shark; so in that condition yes he will be hit by Acid and easily killed by Katsuya.



I can agree to that, but I don't see that scenario happening. If Gai starts in base and lets Katsuya be summoned for whatever reason without putting any pressure on Tsunade, then I don't see him entering gates if Tsunade is playing hide and seek. In Base without any exertion he should have the stamina to outlast the summoning limit. If he enters gates, then its likely he blitz's Tsunade before Katsuyu can defend her. And this is all assuming that summoning Katsuyu would be her opening move, which is questionable given all her performances.





Turrin said:


> 1. Wait so your saying because Madaea Susanoo sword didn’t shatter when it hit a minor sand wall (not even Gaara Mother defense) it’s equal to Gaara defense? That makes no sense. Ei3 defended a move that has better feats then AT; FRS that he’s naturally inferior too, and Gaara defense is better then that; in the entire war Gaara was never pierced through but his defense not even a single scratched. Their is simply no way your convincing me an attack Kisame survived is overcoming such an OP defense



As I said, Ei3 was not unharmed by rasenshuriken, he had light injuries over his body. Kakazu himself had most of his body in tact after getting hit by it, despite losing all his long range mode tendrils and remaining heart masks, just like A3 lost his raiton armor. A3 is naturally durable even without the raiton armor, so the fact he tanked it better than Kakazu isn't at all surprising. But A3 was also injured by a senpou rasengan. There was no cracks on his right arm when Naruto dodged his nukite, and then when naruto hits the arm, there are suddenly cracks exactly where the rasengan landed. I'm afraid his durability is highly questionable:



Madara's yakasa matagama pierced Gaara's mother defense and created cracks in Ohnoki's stone golem that was underneath. So why should I believe that Gaara's sand is superior in terms of density/tensile strength? The fact that Madara's susano'o attack actually pierced through and hit the shield underneath such that it cracked would imply it has greater durability than Gaara's sand.

*Spoiler*: _beads> then sand shield_ 















Turrin said:


> 1. I’m sorry that’s a silly metric to go off of; circumstance and location matter so much very rarely can a character beat another 9/10 times unless the gap is massive. But based on your own logic then Gai isn’t better then Low-Kages as he isn’t beating them 9/10 times



But I think location and scenario changing the outcome just shows that the characters are not truly superior to one or another. Winning 9-10/10 no matter what is the only way someone would be superior, which means the gap has to be massive in the first place. If the gap isn't massive then it means the characters are on the same tier. The other problem is we haven't established who exactly falls into "Low Kage". But if  a character can punch outside his weight class consistently then there is a problem with the ranking system. Gai may not be better than all Low Kages but he also can't exactly be limited to limited to low kage if mid kages can't answer his big guns lol. Gai is a tough character to rank because his power up massively changes who he can tango with, and he doesn't always resort to it immediately for good reasons, and it only lasts for a relatively short burst.  Most characters aren't that unstable.




Turrin said:


> Kisame was going to be fodderized by bade Jiraiya Toad stomach if not for Itachi; so yeah I don’t doubt that he’s a good Ninja, just like I don’t doubt Gai is, but Kisame is Low-Kage if that. As he like Gai has low odds of winning against any Kage. Albeit I guess I’m you view where someone needs to go 9/10 to be better that may not be true.



and this is a perfect example of what I mean. You state that Kisame was going to be fodderized by Jiraiya's technique, but that technique can only be used in enclosed spaces like the one Kisame and Jiraiya were in. Mind you, Itachi forced Kisame to leave, and because of that, Kisame was unable to retaliate against Jiraiya before getting into that bad position. Kisame could have launched any number of suiton techniques in response to Jiraiya activating that jutsu in the first place, and Jiraiya being in a crouched position would not easily be able to dodge or block in such an enclosed space without releasing control of the stomach first. But that was taken off the table when Kisame was asked to leave, and with the walls finally closing in, there was nothing left for Kisame to do lol.  But I'll meet you half way and say that Kisame could lose to Toad stomach binding a certain number of times out of ten, assuming Jiraiya gets initiative in an enclosed space like that. How does that account for a battle that starts in the ocean, or more neutrally, a battle that starts in an open field like the one Shoten Kisame fought Gai in? Base Jiraiya doesn't really have any other technique that would OHKO Kisame just like that. Lion's Mane can also be overcome by a combination of evasion and physical strength with swinging samehada, and samehada could even bite the hair and drain Jiaiya's chakra that way. Kebari senbon can be blocked by Samehada, its long enough and durable enough.  Kisame can slice through Jiraiya's fireballs with physical strength like Killer Bee did to Itachi and charge at him. Kisame is superior in CQC combat because he can absorb rasengan, and is a kenjutsu specilalist, so I don't see jiraiya standing any chance at that range without SM. Gamabunta or any of the other boss summons aren't something that can stop Kisame either, Daikodan and other massive suitons would likely counter Gamayu endan. Plus with summoning time limit, water dome becomes a problem for Base Jiraiya as well. The best  thing for Jiraiya  would  be to use Yomi Numa, as that could restrain Kisame well and slow him down significantly, but even in SM he didn't just sink the Human Path of Pain. Kisame could probably muscle his way out after some time with help from his suitons. But I think Yomi numa would slow Kisame down long enough for Jiraiya to smokescreen away to a concealed position, substitute out with a shadow clone,  and enter Sage Mode safely. So I could see Jiraiya entering SM and winning, but I also see Kisame having plenty of advantages in a neutral scenario if Jiraiya starts in Base, which he does in the canon anyway, which could allow him to kill Jiraiya before he can enter SM  6-7/10. As such, I fail to see how someone who can compete with a Sannin would be a low Kage.


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## Sufex (Aug 9, 2019)

He can contest some high kages in close range but overall he is not at that level until 8th gate where he flies past it to god level.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Aug 9, 2019)

Nope... Think about it even his 8th Gate which is a thing make him enough powerful to stand against god-likes figures is very evitable by kage levelers (not evitable in direct clash dont get me wrong but for example people could evade him before he starts via flying, going underground, intangibility, invisibility, clone feint etc etc.) 

So how his way waaaaaay inferior 7th can be a high kage leve thing ?


Nope he is not high kage. He is a high kage level cqc/taijutsu fighter but he is not high kage caliber ninja. He is one dimensional and his gates can be active in very limited , short durations. And after that duration there is a draw back as side effect. Not that much of a handy thing against mid to high kage levelers actually. 


So long story short. No he aint. And he never portrayed as.


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> What is this... I don’t even. Yes. Gai chose to wipe Kisame out in one move and they unleashed their attacks at best at the same time... if not Kisame striking first. I already provided evidence of Gai blitzing Kisame. It’s time to concede.


Kisame had time 2 use 1K Feeding Sharks and Daikodan; against Gated Gai because the distance was larger between him and Gai; then in the example you keep citing with Shoten Kisame. Though even in that example Kisame did react swing his blade at Gai, Gai was just slightly faster.

Your choosing to not account for distance out of connivence for your argument.


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Prove it. Show me the evidence. Where was it stated that the 5th Gate is unique in this? Isn’t it possible that the charge up time is to create tension and drama for narrative purposes? Lee at 13 and a Genin was able to open them up on the fly, but even if I assumed that the 6th or 7th Gate weren’t enough. The first 5 Gates should already make him significantly faster than any of these guys.
> 
> 3) No. I’m pointing out that Gai at his best and with his full Arsenal’s wipes the floor with these guys. That was always my point.


We were shown on panel it takes longer, so I don’t know what evidence you need. Look at the panels I just posted of Gai opening 7TH Gate

Gai at his best spends most of the match in Base and as such he needs to survive these enemies during that time; if you can’t think of a way he survives their move set in Base and have to rely on Gates; that at best means Gai wins a few matches and the enemy wins a few; at worse the enemy wins more because Gai is primarily in Base or because the enemy can survive Gates


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## sabre320 (Aug 9, 2019)

Hell no lol....he was noted to be signifigantly inferior to pain arc sm naruto by the author.


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## t0xeus (Aug 9, 2019)

sabre320 said:


> Hell no lol....he was noted to be signifigantly inferior to pain arc sm naruto by the author.


Where was that?


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2019)

@ThirdRidoku 

1. That still means Gai didn’t feel he was quick enough to blitz; Kisame before Kisame could cast both of his Jutsu. Basically if the author allowed Kisame was able to get off 2 Jutsu against Gated Gai your not going convince me that Tsunade would be blitz before she can use a faster Technique 

2. I don’t know why you believe Summoning requires 5 seals; we’ve clearly seen summoners like the Sannin, summon with a single seal or even no seal before. We even see Tsunade and Sakura summoning Katsuya in the WA by just drawing blood and slapping the ground, no seals required:

3. Ei3 took minor injuries, but Fuuton also had the elemental advantage over Ei3. So it stands to reason without that Ei3 wouldn’t have taken any damage. And Gaara defense is suppose to be beyond that E3. So essentially that establishes Gaara defense > Ei3 > FRS (without elemental advantage) >= AT

4. Thing is Gaaras mother defense is only one layer of Gaara defense. To damage Gaara you needn’t to get through his mother defense, his gourd sand, and his sand amor. 

5. That’s why I’m saying your own metric doesn’t make sense. Gai can’t beat Low-Kages 9/10 times under all conditions. Yet your saying he is Mid-Kage because he can punch out of his weight class. Your making a rule and then only allowing Gai to be an exception to it. No offense but that is bias plain and simple; even if its unintentional on your part. Also plenty of Low-Kage can punch out of their weight class with their Triumph cards; the problem is a lot of times they will be defeated before they get the chance to use these or even then their triumphs may fail. Gai is the prime example of this as outside of his Triumphs (Gates) in base he is very fragile. Against even Low-Kage Gai is fodder outside his triumphs.

6. Kisame could not launch Suiton Jutsu; quick enough; the reason being he’d need to create a water source first and then use the Sution; the Toad Stomach would have crushed him by then. This is why Itachi opted for the speedy Amaterasu to escape. 

7. As far as Base Jiraiya vs Kisame in an open space goes. In CQC/Mid Range; Jiraiya likely has knowledge on Samehada ability to absorb Jutsu, and has a number of physical attacks that can end Kisame such as Food Cart Destroyer and Wild Lions Mane. I don’t believe Kisame can simply overcome Wild Lions Mane with physical strength; as we’ve seen that attack completely overpower a large summon to the point of crushing it into nothing. Jiraiya also has the ability to bind the enemy by touching their shadow another technique that would hard counter Kisame. With those three options, superior speed and the ability to pull summons to assist him I don’t see Jiraiya having an issue destroying him in CQC.

Long Range, Kisame would do better due to his large Suitons, but Jiraiya can counter them with Bunta own Large Suitons and his Doton. The only danger would be Daikodan, but that’s a late game move; and Jiraiya is likely to get into CqC/Mid range and destroy Kisame with one of the above moves before that happens. 

So Base-Jiraiya likely wins with Mid/Low diff depending on how the battlefield plays out. I do believe Kisame has an outside chance of winning with Daikodan, but I don’t ascribe to your logic that someone needs to win 9/10 times to be superior; I think if Jiraiya low/mid diffs 7/10 times in most scenarios; and maybe 1/10 times high diffs; and looses 2/10 times to Kisame high diff, he’s still obviously way better then him


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## sabre320 (Aug 9, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> Where was that?


In the pain arc war arc it was noted by learning sennin mode he had gone on to another level then anyone in konoha and gai was told not to get into a battle on that level.


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## Santoryu (Aug 9, 2019)

sabre320 said:


> Hell no lol....he was noted to be signifigantly inferior to pain arc sm naruto by the author.



Please don't do this. The opinion of Gai "getting" in the way was _forcefully refuted_ subsequently as evidenced by Gai's performances in the war and there's also the fact that he had access to the final gate. Gai, in the final gate, would eat both Pain and SM Naruto for breakfast. The opinion of Gai 'getting in the way' turned out to be nonsense. And even then, that was Pain arc Gai, not war arc. 

7G Gai is competent enough to be relevant against the likes of dojutsu amped V2 Jinjuriki, a tailed beast, and he even sent Uchiha Madara's Susano flying and was consequently praised by Killer Bee.


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## sabre320 (Aug 9, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Please don't do this. The opinion of Gai "getting" in the way was _forcefully refuted_ subsequently as evidenced by Gai's performances in the war and there's also the fact that he had access to the final gate. Gai, in the final gate, would eat both Pain and SM Naruto for breakfast. The opinion of Gai 'getting in the way' turned out to be nonsense. And even then, that was Pain arc Gai, not war arc.
> 
> 7G Gai is competent enough to be relevant against the likes of dojutsu amped V2 Jinjuriki, a tailed beast, and he even sent Uchiha Madara's Susano flying and was consequently praised by Killer Bee.


That was the authors intent....the 8th gate is an outlier and was never considered in gais general level. He was always portrayed as a peer to kakashi outside of the final gate and kakashi was always portrayed as inferior to sm naruto.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santoryu (Aug 9, 2019)

sabre320 said:


> That was the authors intent....the 8th gate is an outlier and was never considered in gais general level



It's not an outlier. Even in part 1 Kakashi noted that Gai's final gate could grant him power that would exceed the Hokage.
When Gai was battling Madara, Kakashi explicitly notes that his dad was right about Gai "surpassing him".

That's authorial intent right there. Gai surpassed Kakashi with the eight gate and it was considered to be part of his arsenal. Kakashi only became stronger with DMS which was reliant on an external source.



sabre320 said:


> He was always portrayed as a peer to kakashi outside of the final gate and kakashi was always portrayed as inferior to sm naruto.



That's partially because he had never activated the final gate prior to the war arc.

Gai can be considered a peer to Kakashi in a general sense but still have a technique in his locker that allows him become much stronger.


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Please don't do this. The opinion of Gai "getting" in the way was _forcefully refuted_ subsequently as evidenced by Gai's performances in the war and there's also the fact that he had access to the final gate. Gai, in the final gate, would eat both Pain and SM Naruto for breakfast. The opinion of Gai 'getting in the way' turned out to be nonsense. And even then, that was Pain arc Gai, not war arc.
> 
> 7G Gai is competent enough to be relevant against the likes of dojutsu amped V2 Jinjuriki, a tailed beast, and he even sent Uchiha Madara's Susano flying and was consequently praised by Killer Bee.


Gai doesn’t reach 8TH Gate he looses immediately to ST which he has no counted for.


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## Braiyan (Aug 9, 2019)

sabre320 said:


> In the pain arc war arc it was noted by learning sennin mode he had gone on to another level then anyone in konoha and gai was told not to get into a battle on that level.



By Katsuyu who clearly had no idea what Gai could bring to the table, and  of not wanting anyone else potentially dying (Fukasaku) or getting seriously hurt (Hinata) in his battle against Pain.

Y'all really need to learn how to establish context with these statements. The only Path that was left when Katsuyu made that comment was a post-CT Deva Path, who was running on fumes. That means no CST or CT coming into play. Give Gai knowledge of ST and BT, and literally all he needs to do is force Deva to waste his ST on a ranged attack, and then he can stomp him within the 5 second cooldown. 

And that's if Gai went in solo. In the scenario where he was told not to interfere he would be backing up Naruto, which means all Naruto needed to do at that point after confirming Nagato's location was throw his shadow Rasenshurikens, let Deva waste ST on that, and then Gai closes in and torches him with Asa Kujaku. No need for 8th Gate or 7th Gate. No need to rely on a strategy that didn't already work in canon.

If Gai not being allowed to participate had to do with his power level then he shouldn't be seen as Kakashi's equal. Kakashi came up with a plan that would have killed Deva Path if he was alone, and had Nagato so wary of him he didn't even want to approach his body after winning. If Kakashi with backup can do that against Deva with backup, his equal with stronger backup should do even better against Deva alone.

If Gai was so weak then he wouldn't have been in battles with stronger Paths, stronger Rinnegan wielders or the Mazo itself. Or repeatedly saving stronger versions of Naruto.

Really would like people to stop acting like statements from old arcs are still somehow valid when they are outright refuted by statements and actual shown events in later arcs.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kai (Aug 9, 2019)

The War Arc Masters are peer to Sasori, Deidara, Kisame, and Kakuzu IMO all of whom would be around the mid Kage range on my list.


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2019)

Braiyan said:


> By Katsuyu who clearly had no idea what Gai could bring to the table, and  of not wanting anyone else potentially dying (Fukasaku) or getting seriously hurt (Hinata) in his battle against Pain.
> 
> Y'all really need to learn how to establish context with these statements. The only Path that was left when Katsuyu made that comment was a post-CT Deva Path, who was running on fumes. That means no CST or CT coming into play. Give Gai knowledge of ST and BT, and literally all he needs to do is force Deva to waste his ST on a ranged attack, and then he can stomp him within the 5 second cooldown.
> 
> ...


You need to understand that ST is massive blast that cover the entire area; that’s why Naruto needed to use clones to brace himself; Gai wouldn’t have that and get raped no diff. So all your strategies involving Gai don’t work. Naruto throws a FRS and Deva would use a massive ST destroying the FRS and blowing away Gai at he sameness time. Gai is fodder to ST.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 9, 2019)

Braiyan said:


> By Katsuyu who clearly had no idea what Gai could bring to the table, and  of not wanting anyone else potentially dying (Fukasaku) or getting seriously hurt (Hinata) in his battle against Pain.
> 
> Y'all really need to learn how to establish context with these statements. The only Path that was left when Katsuyu made that comment was a post-CT Deva Path, who was running on fumes. That means no CST or CT coming into play. Give Gai knowledge of ST and BT, and literally all he needs to do is force Deva to waste his ST on a ranged attack, and then he can stomp him within the 5 second cooldown.
> 
> ...


That’s so tired. I’ve heard it for years. Was SM Naruto stronger than 8th Gate Gai? If not, Katsuyu was wrong.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> That’s so tired. I’ve heard it for years. Was SM Naruto stronger than 8th Gate Gai? If not, Katsuyu was wrong.


Gai doesn’t start in 8TH Gate; so Katsuya was not wrong. Plus Gai going 8TH gate and defeating Deva realm and dying would be objectively as worse outcome then Naruto soloing Deva Realm as Gai would have died


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 9, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Gai doesn’t start in 8TH Gate; so Katsuya was not wrong. Plus Gai going 8TH gate and defeating Deva realm and dying would be objectively as worse outcome then Naruto soloing Deva Realm as Gai would have died


Whether Gai starts in the 8th Gate or not isn’t relevant. That’s part of his arsenal. If you say that SM Naruto was on another level from everyone else in the village, you’re including 8G Gai. Gai and Kakashi for that matter, later joined Naruto in a greater battle against stronger enemies and didn’t get in his way. In fact, they helped him significantly and saved his life on more than one occasion.


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Whether Gai starts in the 8th Gate or not isn’t relevant. That’s part of his arsenal. If you say that SM Naruto was on another level from everyone else in the village, you’re including 8G Gai. Gai and Kakashi for that matter, later joined Naruto in a greater battle against stronger enemies and didn’t get in his way. In fact, they helped him significantly and saved his life on more than one occasion.


I’ll try one more time to explain this to you:

Gates are apart of Gai arsenal but their drawbacks need to be accounted for. Due to the massive strain they cause the user Gai can only use Gates for a few seconds at a time; and will therefore spend most of the match in Base, unless Gates become absolutely necessary. Look at Gai past fights:

When he encounters Itachi and Kisame; he doesn’t immediately use Gates. He attacks Kisame in Base and stays in Base, only saying he needs to look at Itachi feet not activate Gates right away; and this was against 2 S-Class Criminals. When he goes up against Shoten-Kisame a match (you love to cite) he used Base Taijutsu against him for most of the match. Even when he goes up against Kisame again in WA, he attacks first with Base Taijutsu. When he engages  with the 7MS we have no indication he ever opted for Gates. And so on.

The problem with this is it gives his enemy time to use Jutsu and these Jutsu could kill Gai before he gets a chance to even use Gates. If Base attacks Deva with Leaf Wirlwind, what do you honestly think is going to happen; Deva is going to use ST and one shot him before he even thinks about opening a single Gate. Similarly in our discussion about Mei vs Gai; if Gai charges Mei in Base to use Dynamic Entry; he’s just going to run into Acid and die before he even thinks of using Gates. And since Gai consistently fights this way this outcome is highly likely in both of these match ups.

Now I’m the case of Pain; maybe Katsuya sharing intel with Gai coupled with the decimation of the village would prompt him to open Gates on route to Pain. But if he opens 6TH/7TH Gate the moment Deva sees Gated Gai drawing near the battlefield he’s just going to use a large ST and one shot, which goes back to 6/7TH Gate aren’t fast enough to stop high tier characters form using Jutsu at Mid/Long range; only in CQC; that why Gai blitz Kisame when they were closer but could blitz Kisame before he cast Jutsu when they were further away in their second match. So Gai still is useless there.

Now the final option is Gai activates 8TH Gate; and in which case he’ll be fast enough to probably blitz Deva before he can even activate ST, but then Gai dies; and which is a worse outcome then leaving it to Naruto who already had a plan to defeat Deva realm without having to die, and effectively would be getting in Naruto’s way of protecting the village, because it would be a needless death of someone Naruto is trying to protect by taking Deva on alone with his strategy. Not to mention he wouldn’t actually defeat Pain; as Nagato would still be chilling and need Naruto to still deal with him.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 9, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I’ll try one more time to explain this to you:
> 
> Gates are apart of Gai arsenal but their drawbacks need to be accounted for. Due to the massive strain they cause the user Gai can only use Gates for a few seconds at a time; and will therefore spend most of the match in Base, unless Gates become absolutely necessary. Look at Gai past fights:
> 
> ...


I don’t need you to try and explain this to me. I understand what you’re saying. Now let me explain this to you. Katsuyu’s statement is meaningless.

1) We already know that the Masters were able to help a much stronger version of Naruto against stronger enemies.

2) Gai can use the Gates longer than a few seconds at a time objectively. You’re just 100% wrong.

Gai with the 7th Gate stands casually and explains his attack to a defeated Kisame in Chapter 507. He can last longer with the lower Gates and as far as I remember, the 6th Gate and under never tore his muscles.

3) Again, my argument was about where Gated Gai would be placed on a Tier List. Would Gated Gai make short work of the Mid Akatsuki members? Objectively yes. That’s all there is to it. I even stated that their only hope to win was to kill him before he used the Gates (which can be used on the fly).

5) The reason Gai was close to Kisame, was because he closed the distance before Kisame had time to do anything.





6) I’m not even addressing this. My point is that with the 8th Gate, Gai was objectively stronger than Naruto during that arc so Katsuyus statement was worthless.


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> I don’t need you to try and explain this to me. I understand what you’re saying. Now let me explain this to you. Katsuyu’s statement is meaningless.
> 
> 1) We already know that the Masters were able to help a much stronger version of Naruto against stronger enemies.
> 
> ...


You seem not understand that different enemies have different skill sets and Gai simply had no good answer to ST. I’m not going to bother with any of the other points because I already disproved them; and at this point your just repeating yourself; and your refuse to listen to reason, expecting Gai to perform widely differently then he did in the Manga itself; and refusing to understand that the distance was greater the second one Gai faced Kisame


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 9, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You seem not understand that different enemies have different skill sets and Gai simply had no good answer to ST. I’m not going to bother with any of the other points because I already disproved them; and at this point your just repeating yourself; and your refuse to listen to reason, expecting Gai to perform widely differently then he did in the Manga itself; and refusing to understand that the distance was greater the second one Gai faced Kisame


1) Most people that look at this conversation objectively aren’t going to see it that way. You’ve consistently ignored my points. My point was that Gated Gai is above the Mid Akatsuki with the higher Gates. Since you e resorted to arguing that they didn’t kill him in abase (which is exactly what I said their best option was at the outset), I guess that you fundamentally agree with me.

2) Objectively, 8th Gate Gai was far stronger than SM Naruto in the Pain Arc.

3) 6 Gate Gai already blitzed Kisame. 7 Gate Gai is far faster.


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> 1) Most people that look at this conversation objectively aren’t going to see it that way. You’ve consistently ignored my points. My point was that Gated Gai is above the Mid Akatsuki with the higher Gates. Since you e resorted to arguing that they didn’t kill him in abase (which is exactly what I said their best option was at the outset), I guess that you fundamentally agree with me.
> 
> 2) Objectively, 8th Gate Gai was far stronger than SM Naruto in the Pain Arc.
> 
> 3) 6 Gate Gai already blitzed Kisame. 7 Gate Gai is far faster.



1. You said that you didn’t see the other Akatsuki doing better against Gai on turtle island. Gai didn’t start that match using Gates. Hence why I talked about the fact that he needs to survive long enough to use Gates.

Would you like my to post the pages of him not starting the match with Gates? Would you like me to Quote your statement that the other Akatsuki wouldn’t do better? 


2. Okay and objectively 8TH Gate Gai would do worse against Pain; as he would die, while Naruto lived 

3. Your failure to comprehend different distances is not a valid stance


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## Serene Grace (Aug 9, 2019)

No lol


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 9, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. You said that you didn’t see the other Akatsuki doing better against Gai on turtle island. Gai didn’t start that match using Gates. Hence why I talked about the fact that he needs to survive long enough to use Gates.
> 
> Would you like my to post the pages of him not starting the match with Gates? Would you like me to Quote your statement that the other Akatsuki wouldn’t do better?
> 
> ...


1) Did I? Do you have the direct quote? My point from the start was that Gai is on a higher level than the Mid Akatsuki members due to the higher Gates.

2) You can post whatever you want.

3) Is 8th Gate Gai more powerful than SM Naruto? Yes or no? Do I have to make the thread?

4) Whatever, man. Konan couldn’t even dodge Base Jiraiya's oil. Gated Gai would give her 100 times before she hit the ground.


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## Braiyan (Aug 10, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You need to understand that ST is massive blast that cover the entire area;



You need to understand that not all STs are the same. Deva used ST on FRS and i. 

And it's exactly this scenario that I'm proposing Gai would be useful, since he would have a window between Deva being forced to dodge the second FRS and being able to use ST again. A window he can exploit in the Gates since he is both faster and has more range than base Naruto clones. 

So this:


Turrin said:


> Naruto throws a FRS and Deva would use a massive ST destroying the FRS and blowing away Gai at he sameness time.



Makes no sense in response to this:


Braiyan said:


> all Naruto needed to do at that point after confirming Nagato's location was throw his shadow Rasenshurikens, let Deva waste ST on that, *and then* Gai closes in and torches him with Asa Kujaku.


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## Turrin (Aug 10, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> 1) Did I? Do you have the direct quote? My point from the start was that Gai is on a higher level than the Mid Akatsuki members due to the higher Gates.
> 
> 2) You can post whatever you want.
> 
> ...



1.


Lee-Sensei said:


> @Shazam Kishimoto actually wrote in Kisame saying that he had the advantage since they were fighting in the ocean. He was overpowered. This was after he’d drained Killerbee of his chakra, while Gai was trying to capture him alive and without the 8th Gate. And again, I don’t see the other Mid Akatsuki members doing any better



2. 8TH Gate Gai > SM Naruto; but would do worse then him against Pain / Nagato; as he would die while Naruto won & survived. Your willfully ignoring this truth

3. Konan has nothing to do with your failure to comprehend that distance matters. 

Against Shoten Kisame; Gai is tight next to Kisame in the air; when Kisame swings his sword at Gai; and he outspeeds him with his kick:

Even still it should be noted that Kisame swing comes close to hitting Gai; and he just barely outspeeds him:

However in their second duel there is a far larger distance between:

Every time Gai fights an enemy and his in Taijutsu range he starts even Gated with physical strokes attempting to blitz the enemy and then use AT/MP. Like against Shoten-Kisame, Jin, and Madara. However when the enemy is too far away he doesn’t do that but instead launches the Mid/Long range MP/AT right away. That tells us distance matters. Which should be obvious as Gai isn’t a teleporter


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## Turrin (Aug 10, 2019)

Braiyan said:


> You need to understand that not all STs are the same. Deva used ST on FRS and i.
> 
> And it's exactly this scenario that I'm proposing Gai would be useful, since he would have a window between Deva being forced to dodge the second FRS and being able to use ST again. A window he can exploit in the Gates since he is both faster and has more range than base Naruto clones.
> 
> ...


Why would Deva use a pinpoint ST on one target instead of the massive ST; when presented with multiple targets in Gai and Naruto?

And even if he did; at best then Gai and Naruto end up with the same result at worse Gai dies; still seems like Katsuya was right to tell Gai to let Naruto handle is and not get in his way


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 10, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1.
> 
> 2. 8TH Gate Gai > SM Naruto; but would do worse then him against Pain / Nagato; as he would die while Naruto won & survived. Your willfully ignoring this truth
> 
> ...


1) Congrats. He’s still stronger than them with the Gates.

2) I’m not ignoring anything. That’s irrelevant. You said that Naruto was on another level from anyone with the village, because Katsuyu said they’d get in his way (even though the Masters helped Naruto considerably against much more powerful enemies). He wasn’t.

3) Konan. Would. Get. Trashed.

4) Do you have any evidence that Shoten Kisame is physically weaker and slower than regular Kisame? They had the same bodies.

5) Kisame swung first. That’s why he almost hit him. The point of that scene was to show that Gated Gai was significantly faster than him.

6) Gai used MP and AT against Kisame to get the scroll. Defeating Iisame was just a bonus. The scroll was his focus and people need to stop pretending that it wasn’t.


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## Turrin (Aug 10, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> 1) Congrats. He’s still stronger than them with the Gates.
> 
> 2) I’m not ignoring anything. That’s irrelevant. You said that Naruto was on another level from anyone with the village, because Katsuyu said they’d get in his way (even though the Masters helped Naruto considerably against much more powerful enemies). He wasn’t.
> 
> ...



1. Way to not man up and admit you were wrong

2. No I didn't; I said Katsuya was right to tell Gai to stay out of it

3. You have no argument

4. Do you not understand what the word distance means

5) Never said he didn't; I said that strike almost hit Gai

6. IF Gai could blitz Kisame before he used his Jutsu this would make getting the scrolls easier; jeesh, please understand simple logic


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## t0xeus (Aug 10, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> (even though the Masters helped Naruto considerably against much more powerful enemies).


That's a bad example. Against Obito having teammates was actually a big advantage, since they can cover for you and force him to go intangible the moment he wants to warp Naruto. And at the same time Obito doesn't have uncounterable one-shot technique like ST, so if Naruto had two skilled teammates helping him to force Obito remain intangible whenever he could've warped Naruto instead, that's a big help.
But in the case of Deva, he is just as strong fighting 1 opponent as fighting 100 given his arsenal.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 10, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Way to not man up and admit you were wrong
> 
> 2. No I didn't; I said Katsuya was right to tell Gai to stay out of it
> 
> ...


1) Wrong about what? Gai can open the Gates on the fly and he’s stronger than them with the Gates. I said from the start that their only hope was to kill him in Base.

2) You’ve said it before, but I don’t have the time or desire to look for the quote. In this very thread you said that Gai would be fodder for ST. Presumably this includes the 8th Gate.

3) I have a much stronger argument than you.

4) This is so boring. There’s no evidence that Gai couldn’t have closed the distance with the 6thh or 7th Gate. His purpose was to get the scroll. Defeating Kisame was secondary. Please stop making me repeat myself.

5) Because he swung his sword before Gai started to kick. The purpose of that sc he was to show that Gai was significantly faster. That’s why Kisame thought he’s “fas-“... and he didn’t get the time to finish his thought.

6) I’ve tried to be nice here. Kisame had already fed he scrolls to his sharks by the time that Gai had arrived and he didn’t know which shark had it. There’s also this.



You have absolutely no evidence.


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## Braiyan (Aug 10, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Why would Deva use a pinpoint ST on one target instead of the massive ST; when presented with multiple targets in Gai and Naruto?



Same reason he relied on a pinpoint ST against Naruto alone: because FRS was an immediate threat and he still needed Deva mobile enough to take on anything else SM Naruto tried to pull while he was hidden in the smoke, just like Gai would be.

This aligns with the fact that a massive ST at that stage takes so much out of Nagato he can't even move Deva afterwards. Which means he will be a sitting duck on the off chance it fails, and it is definitely more likely to fail if his opponents are at a distance away as opposed to right in his face.



Turrin said:


> And even if he did; at best then Gai and Naruto end up with the same result at worse Gai dies; still seems like Katsuya was right to tell Gai to let Naruto handle is and not get in his way



If you ignore everything I've been posting then sure.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Aug 10, 2019)

Mid kage, lower end


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## Turrin (Aug 11, 2019)

Braiyan said:


> Same reason he relied on a pinpoint ST against Naruto alone: because FRS was an immediate threat and he still needed Deva mobile enough to take on anything else SM Naruto tried to pull while he was hidden in the smoke, just like Gai would be.
> 
> This aligns with the fact that a massive ST at that stage takes so much out of Nagato he can't even move Deva afterwards. Which means he will be a sitting duck on the off chance it fails, and it is definitely more likely to fail if his opponents are at a distance away as opposed to right in his face.
> 
> ...


Deva used a massive ST the moment Naruto increased his numbers Kage Bushin


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## Turrin (Aug 11, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> 1) Wrong about what? Gai can open the Gates on the fly and he’s stronger than them with the Gates. I said from the start that their only hope was to kill him in Base.
> 
> 2) You’ve said it before, but I don’t have the time or desire to look for the quote. In this very thread you said that Gai would be fodder for ST. Presumably this includes the 8th Gate.
> 
> ...


I’m going to make this simple for you. Please explain why Gai didn’t blitz Kisame (or the Scroll shark) in the time between the panel I circled in red and the one I circled in yellow:

Gai lands on the ocean right when Kisame is feeding the scroll to a shark; he doesn’t multiply the number of the sharks until he uses his Jutsu on the bottom panel i circled in yellow. So Gai knew where the scroll was and had time to attempt a blitz

Can you give me any other reason why Gai didn’t blitz Kisame between those 2 panels?

Other than of course the reason I keep giving you that due to the distance Gai was not confident he could blitz Kisame before Kisame could cast his Jutsu.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 11, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I’m going to make this simple for you. Please explain why Gai didn’t blitz Kisame (or the Scroll shark) in the time between the panel I circled in red and the one I circled in yellow:
> 
> Gai lands on the ocean right when Kisame is feeding the scroll to a shark; he doesn’t multiply the number of the sharks until he uses his Jutsu on the bottom panel i circled in yellow. So Gai knew where the scroll was and had time to attempt a blitz
> 
> ...


Whatever. Let’s just agree to disagree.


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## Braiyan (Aug 11, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Deva used a massive ST the moment Naruto increased his numbers Kage Bushin



Yes ... because a bunch of clones in his face were an immediate threat. Not sure what your point is here.


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## Turrin (Aug 11, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Whatever. Let’s just agree to disagree.


Translation you have no argument and ability to explain any alternative reasoning for why Gai didn’t blitz Kisame there (Other then distance), and are too bias to admit when your wrong

Reactions: Like 1


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 11, 2019)

^ thats just a clumsy panel sequence
but i haven't been following this debate or know the initial point of contention


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 11, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Translation you have no argument and ability to explain any alternative reasoning for why Gai didn’t blitz Kisame there (Other then distance), and are too bias to admit when your wrong


No. I was trying to end this debate peaceably, because neither of us are going to change our minds. But you’re so immature, that you had to get the last word. And it’s not the first time. I knew that you would.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 11, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I’m going to make this simple for you. Please explain why Gai didn’t blitz Kisame (or the Scroll shark) in the time between the panel I circled in red and the one I circled in yellow:
> 
> Gai lands on the ocean right when Kisame is feeding the scroll to a shark; he doesn’t multiply the number of the sharks until he uses his Jutsu on the bottom panel i circled in yellow. So Gai knew where the scroll was and had time to attempt a blitz
> 
> ...


1) Besides the fact that I’ve already posted a link explaining why you shouldn’t rush into an enemy carelessly.

2) All of this is literally irrelevant. It’s your opinion that he couldn’t blitz Kisame. Even though the distance in the scans that you’ve posted look smaller to me than the distance between Kisame. In the air and Gai at the bottom of the lake in chapter 258. If he had thought something along the lines of, “he’s to far away for me to close the distance”... you’d be right and I’d concede. But he didn’t.


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## Turrin (Aug 12, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> 1) Besides the fact that I’ve already posted a link explaining why you shouldn’t rush into an enemy carelessly.
> 
> 2) All of this is literally irrelevant. It’s your opinion that he couldn’t blitz Kisame. Even though the distance in the scans that you’ve posted look smaller to me than the distance between Kisame. In the air and Gai at the bottom of the lake in chapter 258. If he had thought something along the lines of, “he’s to far away for me to close the distance”... you’d be right and I’d concede. But he didn’t.



1. Okay then if Gai mindset is that he isn’t going to careless blitz an enemy and instead opts to keep his distance and observe a bit; giving the enemy time to cast Jutsu. That still means the enemy will have time to cast Jutsu before Gai blitz them; and we end up at the same result.

Although this idea seems highly unlikely to be the case because Gai had no problem charging into CQC with Shoten Kisame. Making my explanation of distance the only one that really makes sense. 

2. It’s not an opinion that he couldn’t blitz Kisame, because he didn’t blitz Kisame lol. Whether this is due to distance or Gai thinking it was too dangerous to charge in with a blitz; ether way something prevented a blitz there. 

And it is therefore very fair of me to believe that under similar conditions where Gai is at Mid/Long range against and enemy that said enemy could have time to cast Jutsu before they are blitzd. Can you at least admit that no matter why you think Gai didn’t blitz Kisame there.


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## Turrin (Aug 12, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> No. I was trying to end this debate peaceably, because neither of us are going to change our minds. But you’re so immature, that you had to get the last word. And it’s not the first time. I knew that you would.


What’s immature is not admitting when your wrong and instead leaving the thread; and then complaining when someone calls you out on it. If you wan to be mature then admit you don’t have a good answer for why Gai didn’t blitz Kisame; and that if Gai didn’t blitz Kisame before Kisame used Jutsu; it’s obviously very fair to believe other characters who are faster then Kisame could have a chance to cast Jutsu too


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## Turrin (Aug 12, 2019)

Braiyan said:


> Yes ... because a bunch of clones in his face were an immediate threat. Not sure what your point is here.


My point is that when faced with multiple target he used a wide spread AOE ST; he would likely do the same when faced with multiple enemies if Gai showed up.


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## Braiyan (Aug 12, 2019)

Turrin said:


> My point is that when faced with multiple target he used a wide spread AOE ST; he would likely do the same when faced with multiple enemies if Gai showed up.



Then your point is wrong, because he was faced with multiple targets when he used a pinpoint ST on FRS in canon. 

The mere fact that a Rasenshuriken was thrown at him meant that Nagato knew there at least 3 SM Narutos hiding in the smoke, since Naruto needs clones to use FRS at all. There's your multiple targets. Yet Nagato didn't have Deva use a widespread ST, which would have also saved him from the 2nd FRS and 2 clones hiding right next to him that he didn't know about, but instead chose to use a ST that wouldn't cripple Deva and leave him completely helpless to any followup attacks.


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## Turrin (Aug 12, 2019)

Braiyan said:


> Then your point is wrong, because he was faced with multiple targets when he used a pinpoint ST on FRS in canon.
> 
> The mere fact that a Rasenshuriken was thrown at him meant that Nagato knew there at least 3 SM Narutos hiding in the smoke, since Naruto needs clones to use FRS at all. There's your multiple targets. Yet Nagato didn't have Deva use a widespread ST, which would have also saved him from the 2nd FRS and 2 clones hiding right next to him that he didn't know about, but instead chose to use a ST that wouldn't cripple Deva and leave him completely helpless to any followup attacks.


He was faced with a single target then FRS; Naruto or any Bushin were too far away to attack him. This is different then Gai attacking alongside Naruto in CQC


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 12, 2019)

Turrin said:


> What’s immature is not admitting when your wrong and instead leaving the thread; and then complaining when someone calls you out on it. If you wan to be mature then admit you don’t have a good answer for why Gai didn’t blitz Kisame; and that if Gai didn’t blitz Kisame before Kisame used Jutsu; it’s obviously very fair to believe other characters who are faster then Kisame could have a chance to cast Jutsu too




When I’m wrong, I admit it. I’m not conceding, because you’re arguments are pitifully weak.


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## Turrin (Aug 12, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> When I’m wrong, I admit it. I’m not conceding, because you’re arguments are god awful.


You conceding once doesn’t mean your not being immature about conceding now.

Gate-Gai in canon didn’t blitz Kisame before he had the chance to cast Jutsu at Mid/Long Range. So claiming that characters who are >= Kisame in speed couldn’t have a chance to cast Jutsu against Gated-Gai; is obviously a flawed premise and you are just forcing a conclusion that runs contrary to what we’ve actually observed in the manga.


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## Femme (Aug 12, 2019)

Is a suicided bomber worthy of the title war legend , for taking out a large number of people. 

You shouldn’t rank someone high high kage if they have to kill themselve to reach that level.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 12, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Okay then if Gai mindset is that he isn’t going to careless blitz an enemy and instead opts to keep his distance and observe a bit; giving the enemy time to cast Jutsu. That still means the enemy will have time to cast Jutsu before Gai blitz them; and we end up at the same result.
> 
> Although this idea seems highly unlikely to be the case because Gai had no problem charging into CQC with Shoten Kisame. Making my explanation of distance the only one that really makes sense.
> 
> ...


1) Shoten Kisame was in the air trying to put distance between him and Gai. He wasn’t on the surface with sharks out and weaving Hand signs.

2) Your argument is all based on assumptions. There’s no real evidence that the Mid Akatsuki can keep up with Gai’s speed with the higher Gates.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 12, 2019)

Femme said:


> Is a suicided bomber worthy of the title war legend , for taking out a large number of people.
> 
> You shouldn’t rank someone high high kage if they have to kill themselve to reach that level.


Yes.


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## Femme (Aug 12, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Yes.


It’s brave,yes, but not worthy of a ranking in terms of power. Maybe in honor and ranking.

Highest of kages are like Gods on earth, they should be able to reach these power levels instantly and without much effort or consequences.


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## Braiyan (Aug 12, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He was faced with a single target then FRS; Naruto or any Bushin were too far away to attack him



Exactly. So we're right back again to my initial argument:



Braiyan said:


> all Naruto needed to do at that point after confirming Nagato's location was throw his shadow Rasenshurikens, let Deva waste ST on that, *and then* Gai closes in and torches him with Asa Kujaku.



taking note of the fact that Gated Gai is significantly faster than Base Naruto, Asa Kujaku can be used as a ranged attack, and that Base Naruto was able to cross some of the gap between him and Deva just by having a clone throw him.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 12, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You conceding once doesn’t mean your not being immature about conceding now.
> 
> Gate-Gai in canon didn’t blitz Kisame before he had the chance to cast Jutsu at Mid/Long Range. So claiming that characters who are >= Kisame in speed couldn’t have a chance to cast Jutsu against Gated-Gai; is obviously a flawed premise and you are just forcing a conclusion that runs contrary to what we’ve actually observed in the manga.


1) I’ve conceded whenever I was proven wrong. This was just the most recent example. You’ve failed to do that.

2) We’re talking about the Mid Akatsuki, right? That would be Kisame, Deidara, Sasori, Kakuzu and Konan (although I consider a Tier below those 4). How are any of these people faster than Kisame in the first place?


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## Turrin (Aug 12, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> 1) Shoten Kisame was in the air trying to put distance between him and Gai. He wasn’t on the surface with sharks out and weaving Hand signs.
> 
> 2) Your argument is all based on assumptions. There’s no real evidence that the Mid Akatsuki can keep up with Gai’s speed with the higher Gates.



1.  Weaving hand signs shouldn’t matter if Gai can blitz them before they finish casting their Technique 

2. It’s not based on assumptions at all. Your original statement was that you didn’t see other Akatsuki doing better against Gai then Kisame on turtle island. So I’ve literally been putting Akatsuki in the same situation as Kisame

Gai started that match attacking Kisame in Base; allowing Kisame to cast Jutsu then. After Gai enters Gates, Kisame still has time to cast Jutsu in response to Gated-Gai at Mid/Long range. So considering all the Akatsuki here are as fast or faster then Kisame; I’m merely saying they get the same opportunities.

To which you have completely refused to discuss Base-Gai; and have consistently said Gated Gai definitely blitz the other Akatsuki before they have a chance to cast Jutsu at Mid/Long. Despite Gai literally not doing this against Kisame in the same exact scenario we are placing the other Akatsuki in.

So stop being ridiculous and realize what your saying


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 12, 2019)

Femme said:


> It’s brave,yes, but not worthy of a ranking in terms of power. Maybe in honor and ranking.
> 
> Highest of kages are like Gods on earth, they should be able to reach these power levels instantly and without much effort or consequences.


Well it depends on who you’re comparing him to. Obviously people like Minato and Hashirama are much stronger than Gai without the 8th Gate, but hes pretty comfortably above the Mid Akatsuki members with the 6h and 7th Gate. That’s why I place him where I do. This applies to Orochimaru and Jiraiya too IMO.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 12, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1.  Weaving hand signs shouldn’t matter if Gai can blitz them before they finish casting their Technique
> 
> 2. It’s not based on assumptions at all. Your original statement was that you didn’t see other Akatsuki doing better against Gai then Kisame on turtle island. So I’ve literally been putting Akatsuki in the same situation as Kisame
> 
> ...


1) For starters. The other Akatsuki members are weaker than Kisame and they wouldn’t have his battlefield advantage.

2) Since when are any of the other Mid Akatsuki faster than Kisame?

3) I’m not discussing Base Gai, because that’s not enough. That was never my point. My point was that with the higher Gates, Gai is comfortably above them.


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## Turrin (Aug 12, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> 2) We’re talking about the Mid Akatsuki, right? That would be Kisame, Deidara, Sasori, Kakuzu and Konan (although I consider a Tier below those 4). How are any of these people faster than Kisame in the first place?


When talking about speed we’re talking about reactions and how fast they can cast Jutsu.

Kisame has a 4 in reaction speed and 3.5 in hadseals; 1000 Feeding sharks aka required a fair amount of hand-seals to cast

—-
Deidara has a 4.5 in reaction speed and 3.5 in hand seals; and his Jutsu only require a single hand-seal to cast. 

Deidara should easily be able to react and cast Jutsu faster then Kisamw
—-

Kakuzu has a 4 in reaction speed and 3.5 in hand-seals, and his Jutsu require one or no hand-seals to cast. 

Kakuzu should be able to react and cast Jutsu as fast as Kisame, if not slightly faster due to his Jutsu requiring less seals 

——

Sasori has a 4.5 in speed and 4 in hand-seals; and Satetsu requires no hand seals

So yeah it’s obvious he’s casting Jutsu faster then Kisame and has better reactions 

—-
Konan is the only one that’s debatable as we don’t have her Stats, but she was reacting to Obito Kamui; and her Jutsu requires no hand-seals. She really shouldn’t have a problem ether


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## Turrin (Aug 12, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> 1) For starters. The other Akatsuki members are weaker than Kisame and they wouldn’t have his battlefield advantage.
> 
> 2) Since when are any of the other Mid Akatsuki faster than Kisame?
> 
> 3) I’m not discussing Base Gai, because that’s not enough. That was never my point. My point was that with the higher Gates, Gai is comfortably above them.


We can discuss the other Akasuki and how the stack up to Kisame, but first answer my question, why does Kisame weaving hand-seals matter if Gai could have blitz’d him before he completed them?

Your ignoring the question because you know your wrong or do you now admit that Gai couldn’t blitz Kisame at Mid/Long for one reason or another?


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## Femme (Aug 12, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Well it depends on who you’re comparing him to. Obviously people like Minato and Hashirama are much stronger than Gai without the 8th Gate, but hes pretty comfortably above the Mid Akatsuki members with the 6h and 7th Gate. That’s why I place him where I do. This applies to Orochimaru and Jiraiya too IMO.


It triggered me that u didn’t place tsunade with her teammates lol. 
But I see what u are saying


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 12, 2019)

Turrin said:


> We can discuss the other Akasuki and how the stack up to Kisame, but first answer my question, why does Kisame weaving hand-seals matter if Gai could have blitz’d him before he completed them?
> 
> Your ignoring the question because you know your wrong or do you now admit that Gai couldn’t blitz Kisame at Mid/Long for one reason or another?


Nope. Because he didn’t even try it. If he had tried, but Kisames Hand sign weaving speed was to great or if he had thought to himself, “the distance is to great for me to get to him” we wouldn’t be having this argument. He did neither of those things.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 12, 2019)

Femme said:


> It triggered me that u didn’t place tsunade with her teammates lol.
> But I see what u are saying


If it’s any consolation, I think that Tsunade stands a decent chance of outlasting Gai.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 12, 2019)

Turrin said:


> When talking about speed we’re talking about reactions and how fast they can cast Jutsu.
> 
> Kisame has a 4 in reaction speed and 3.5 in hadseals; 1000 Feeding sharks aka required a fair amount of hand-seals to cast
> 
> ...


You do know that Base Gai has a 5.0 in speed according to the Databook, right? Do you really want to open that door? No. Kisame kept up with Killerbee. That’s better than anything the Mid Akatsuki have. Deidara was almost blitzed by Base Hebi Sasuke. IA Kakashi pressured Kakuzu. Sasori had trouble tagging BoS Sakura. Konan was taken down quite easily by Base Jiraiya at Mid Range. Never mind the fact that he can attack them at any range with techniques to powerful for them to tank. My original point is still correct. 7 Gates Gai and arguably 6 Gates Gai is still comfortably above the Mid Akatsuki.


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## Turrin (Aug 12, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Nope. Because he didn’t even try it. If he had tried, but Kisames Hand sign weaving speed was to great or if he had thought to himself, “the distance is to great for me to get to him” we wouldn’t be having this argument. He did neither of those things.


Why didn’t he try it?


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## Turrin (Aug 12, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> You do know that Base Gai has a 5.0 in speed according to the Databook, right? Do you really want to open that door? No. Kisame kept up with Killerbee. That’s better than anything the Mid Akatsuki have. Deidara was almost blitzed by Base Hebi Sasuke. IA Kakashi pressured Kakuzu. Sasori had trouble tagging BoS Sakura. Konan was taken down quite easily by Base Jiraiya at Mid Range. Never mind the fact that he can attack them at any range with techniques to powerful for them to tank. My original point is still correct. 7 Gates Gai and arguably 6 Gates Gai is still comfortably above the Mid Akatsuki.


Yes I want to us the actual facts provided by the author. 

Gai reactions are better then the Akatsuki; that’s not the question here; it’s can the Akatsuki cast a Jutsu as quickly or more so the Kisame; and the answer form the stats provided to us by the author is unequivocally yes.

Now as far as feats go; 

Kisame didn’t keep up with Killer-B Samehada did; it was his sword that react to V1/V2 B and absorb the Raiton from Bs sword preventing him from being pierced through by it. Kisame when relying on his own physical reactions has been kept up with by Asuma, Neji, and even Tenten.

However we’re not talking strictly about physical speed anyway we’re talking about a characters ability to react and cast Jutsu.

Deidara managed to cast several Jutsu against Hebi-Sasuke before he took flight. 

Kakuzu had no problem casting Jutsu against Kakashi

Sasori has no trouble casting Jutsu against Sakura/Chiyo

Konan had no problem casting Jutsu against Jiraiya / Obito.

Remember your assertion is that they won’t be able to cast Jutsu against Gai; yet at no point did any of them have issues casting Jutsu against these enemies (and most of these battles were at Short Range, while w are talking Mid/Long).


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## Femme (Aug 12, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> If it’s any consolation, I think that Tsunade stands a decent chance of outlasting Gai.


It is actually, thank you

Reactions: Like 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Aug 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. That still means Gai didn’t feel he was quick enough to blitz; Kisame before Kisame could cast both of his Jutsu. Basically if the author allowed Kisame was able to get off 2 Jutsu against Gated Gai your not going convince me that Tsunade would be blitz before she can use a faster Technique



At worst that would be a handseal speed feat for Kisame though, not for Tsunade. Kisame is also someone who could compete with Gai's taijutsu in the past, and that was with a 30 percent clone. Now Gai was dealing with a 100 percent Kisame after several arcs had past, and now this same Kisame is at 100 percent and had absorbed some of Bee's chakra as well. And don't forget, 100 percent Kisame can somewhat react to V2 Killer Bee, as he appeared to move his hands in response to V2's speed. And its debatable if Early War Arc 6th Gate is faster than Early War Arc V2 Killer Bee. I would lean toward Killer Bee because he is comparable to V2 Ayy to an extent, and I would only put Gai on that level with 7th Gate.


There is no guarantee that his blitz attempt would be successful, and the shark could swim away while Kisame engages Gai. Gai's caution (as he doesn't know what technique Kisame is using and how many handseals it takes to complete, and he can't cross the distance between himself and Kisame instantly, whereas he will know if Tsunade is using summoning from a mile away), plus Kisame's headstart( because he started weaving seals as Gai was adjusting to his footing from landing from such a high distance above the water),  plus anime theatrics ( Kishimoto's end goal was to show off a clash between Daikodan and Hirudora, so he had to write the scene in a way that that would be accomplished) are the reasons why Kisame was able to pull off the feat. Its no different than V1 Bee being unable to blitz Kisame before he finished seals for making the water dome, the same V1 Bee who was able to speed blitz Kisame's remotely controlled Zetsu clone's head off before he could finish moulding the chakra for Daikodan after just barely making the seal in time in response to Bee's (and Raikage's) speed.  Starting distance also plays a role you know. I assume thirty feet or a bit less for most battles.




Turrin said:


> don’t know why you believe Summoning requires 5 seals; we’ve clearly seen summoners like the Sannin, summon with a single seal or even no seal before. We even see Tsunade and Sakura summoning Katsuya in the WA by just drawing blood and slapping the ground, no seals required:




I disagree, because Kishimoto is inconsistent in the sense that he tends to make shorthands. For example, even in the War Arc against Edo Zabuza, we have seen that Kakashi still needs seals for raikiri, as we see him weaving the standard seals he weaved in part one with the signature SFX: Fwip against him twice. He also weaves seals in response to the v2 Jins for raikiri. Even Sasuke in an earlier arc against Killer Bee, was seen weaving seals for chidori, and also seen weaving seals for chidori against V1 Ayy. Yet in the same battles, he is also seen making chidori seemingly without needing handseals, or the handseals were simply done offpanel. Jiraiya has seemingly summoned gamaken against Animal Painwith just one hand seal without drawing any blood, which is either an inconsistency or Kishimoto just using shorthands. In the battledome, manga/anime theatrics should be disregarded imo, in favour of what is established. Kishimoto draws in the handseals only when he feels like it. We should assume they are otherwise being used, unless the jutsu in question was explicitly shown or stated to no longer require handseals, such as Tsunade suddenly being able to summon katsuyu without any arms. Summoning jutsu was introduced by Jiraiya himself, if you remember, and he described the handsigns necessary. There are jutsu that clearly still require all the handseals no matter what level of chakra control you reach. 
Boar → Dog → Bird → Monkey → Ram are the seals Jiraiya established in P1 if iirc.

Tsunade doesn't have the speed or skill feats to ward off Gai long enough to safely summon. if she takes time to summon before he closes the distance, she will get it off in exchange for getting kicked into the air. We are talking about someone whose taijutsu ability is only good because of her stats, healing/regeneration, decent durability, and good enough experience in timing countering punches. But Gai in Base outclasses her in everything except for strength, and strength doesn't matter against an opponent who is too fast and too skilled to take a direct hit.



Turrin said:


> 3. Ei3 took minor injuries, but Fuuton also had the elemental advantage over Ei3. So it stands to reason without that Ei3 wouldn’t have taken any damage. And Gaara defense is suppose to be beyond that E3. So essentially that establishes Gaara defense > Ei3 > FRS (without elemental advantage) >= AT



Ei3 taking minor injuries is impressive and still feat,and  shouldn't be ignored,  but given that he was an Edo Tensei, and such injuries were healed,  Damage is still damage. You didn't even address the *crack senpou rasengan gave to his arm.* And I doubt a senpou Rasengan is weaker than Hirudora. Even Cho Odama Rasengan from Base Naruto only cracked Madara's susanoo'o. And while Senpou rasengan has better chakra quality due to SM, Cho Odama rasengan still has chakra volume going for it due to its sheer size. 




Turrin said:


> 4. Thing is Gaaras mother defense is only one layer of Gaara defense. To damage Gaara you needn’t to get through his mother defense, his gourd sand, and his sand amor.



I don't disagree. Durability isn't just affected by density and tensile strength, it's also sheer mass. Acceleration = Net force on an object / object's mass. Acceleration is what causes damage. Gaara with a huge enough volume of sand, and thereby large enough mass of stand, would probably survive AT, I agree. But that depends on location and other factors, such as Gaara's ability to mould enough sand in the time Guy decides to enter Gates and use Hirudora.  But Gaara's sand armor was stated to be weaker than the sand shield in part one by Kankuro. So A clean shot at the armor with hirudora should one shot. And 7th Gate is more than fast enough and strong enough to punch through Gaara's sand before he moulds up a ton of sand imo, similiar to how Kimimaro could blitz through the regular mom shield. Gai has knowledge on Gaara's durability, so I see him doing this off the bat.





Turrin said:


> 5. That’s why I’m saying your own metric doesn’t make sense. Gai can’t beat Low-Kages 9/10 times under all conditions. Yet your saying he is Mid-Kage because he can punch out of his weight class. Your making a rule and then only allowing Gai to be an exception to it. No offense but that is bias plain and simple; even if its unintentional on your part. Also plenty of Low-Kage can punch out of their weight class with their Triumph cards; the problem is a lot of times they will be defeated before they get the chance to use these or even then their triumphs may fail. Gai is the prime example of this as outside of his Triumphs (Gates) in base he is very fragile. Against even Low-Kage Gai is fodder outside his triumphs.




Gai being an almost one dimensional close range taijutsu specialist and being 50/50 in  friendly sparring combat with a generalist like Kakashi (someone who exceeds in all ranges of combat, as he is proficient in CQC thanks to copying Gai's taijutsu, being fast enough to use chidori since he was a kid ( and we saw how much Sasuke had to train in speed and  taijutsu in order to use chidori effectively with the sharingan) , proficient at mid range with all the jutsus he has copied plus more since the sharingan can copy most ninjutsu mid battle as well) and proficient even in a long range engagement thanks to Kamui), had to have found his traits that allow him to survive in a world of ninjutsu users. He needs Gates , which are risky, to access powerful mid to long range options. And prior to the War Arc, entering gates was a last resort, as he only did so against Kisame when he had no other choice. that means he has been competent enough to survive long enough in base in most of his fights, and even using the 7th Gate was rare as he said so himself to Kisame. The fact that he can win against Kakashi 50/50 when they both lack full killing intent means he has means of pressuring most pure ninjutsu specialists, and we know that  comes from his speed and strength, he is fast enough to prevent handseals and strong enough to stun his opponents such that if they don't block his kick and punch, they will not be able to focus on ninjutsu, just like we saw in how SM Jiraiya blitz's Animal Path's handseals and preventing him from summoning. I don't see how Gai doesn't have a skill like Mifune, whose skill in stopping handseals was attributed to being a kenjutsu specialist, much like Gai who is a taijutsu specialist,  when he basically he has no defenses against AOE ninjutsu spam in base, and given the fact that he is always physically training his speed, and even in Part One, he was SIGNIFICANTLY faster than Kakashi in BASE. And Kakashi , while in the bracket of low kage tier, is still someone physically fast enough to require the sharingan to see counter attacks when he charges forth at full speed with raikiri.

For that reason, someone like Mei, who is basically a glass canon with no CQC conditioning( in terms of speed, reactions, strength, durability, all things that those with taijutsu aptitude train in) and who has a kenjutsu specialist as a body guard, stands no chance against Base Gai. He blitz's her, stops her hand seals, and she doesn't have the skill or speed to escape a taijutsu encounter. Gai wins 10/10. However, Base Gai would lose to a generalist like Hiruzen, who based on his fight with Oro (could disarm Oro with his staff in CQC,could time paper bomb seals as a counter attack in the same moment he was being kicked  by the first and second hokage, which shows his ability to read and time counter attacks on a high level, as he did it during the moment of impact), had good enough reactions to at least somewhat mentally and physically react to someone as fast as Juubito),  and had good durability and endurance/pain tolerance feats) because Hiruzen is *skilled enough* in CQC to hold his own against Base Gai, time a well timed substitution jutsu like Gaara did in response to the Lee's Lotus, parry blows,  tank a hit or two if need be thanks to his good time with counter attacks, and create space to actually use ninjutsu, where Gai just staight up loses to especially if we go by Hiruzen's war Arc Feats. But if Hiruzen was restricted to pure taijutsu, Gai would eventually win even in Base. But Tsunade doesn't has no way around that restriction because she is also a CQC fighter primarily. But Hiruzen isn't exactly someone I consider a low kage.

As I said, I don't know who you consider to be Low Kage. I understand I may seem Biased, but as it is we already rate certain shinobi's in strength differently. I don't like going by tiers too much in the first place, because this isn't DBZ where power levels mostly determin everything, bar bad matchups like Android Saga Fused Piccolo vs Android 17. They had the same stats but Android 17 would have eventually won because the Android Body doesn't wear down the way Piccolo's flesh and blood does. In Naruto, A >B and B> C, but C could be  > A. That''s why I don't consider someone superior to anyone unless they win 9-10/10 in almost every reasonable scenario. They just have an advantage. To give you example. Kisame on paper is a bad matchup for any version of KCM Naruto. But in reality, Naruto beats him 10/10. The difference in speed, power, and creativity is far too big. The tier difference is too big for Kisame's anti bijuu powers to matter. Or to give you another out of universe example. Batman vs Spiderman. Spiderman stomps because he hardcounters Batman's stealth based martial arts, with spidey sense, and Spiderman otherwise stomps in physical stats. Spiderman wins purely because of matchup.  But if you raised Batman's stats high enough, he would actually win because then he would be fast enough to make spidey sense irrelevant.


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## ThirdRidoku (Aug 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Kisame could not launch Suiton Jutsu; quick enough; the reason being he’d need to create a water source first and then use the Sution; the Toad Stomach would have crushed him by then. This is why Itachi opted for the speedy Amaterasu to escape.



Well that's the thing. You have to remember that in Part One, things were different. Everything was generally scaled down. Using ninjutsu without a water source was considered a Kage Level Feat, just watch the reaction of the anbu to Tobirama doing it. In Part two, Kisame can shit out a lake no diff  from his mouth on just thirty percent of his chakra.  His hype went from being no better than Zabuza's to being a tailless tailed beast, and all his techniques went up in scale as well. Part Two Kisame would have been able to weave seals for a shark ninjutsu in the toad trap no problem. Jiraiya was only able to get off that jutsu for free because Itachi and Kisame were distracted by Sasuke and Naruto respectively.  And Kisame still had time to counter before Itachi asked him to retreat. Kisame was only doomed when they were being corneed from all four sides.  At that point, he needed Itachi's help, sure, but that's not what I'm arguing against.Just barfing out a lake would generate enough force to distract Jiraiya's control over the stomach, as his lake generation alone forced Team Gai to jump in the air to avoid it all.  Kisame's overall portrayal didn't really change, as he is still someone that can lose to Kakashi in Part Two, and struggles with Gai canonically, but you have to remember how arsenal makes a difference. Kisame is skilled enough in kenjutsu that his strength advantage over Gai allows him to defeat his taijutsu more times than not, and with ninjutsu to supplement he can easily beat Base Gai. But with Gates, Gai, can punch above his weight class and compete with and overpower Kisame's ninjutsu and win. and in CQC he wins.





Turrin said:


> s far as Base Jiraiya vs Kisame in an open space goes. In CQC/Mid Range; Jiraiya likely has knowledge on Samehada ability to absorb Jutsu, and has a number of physical attacks that can end Kisame such as Food Cart Destroyer and Wild Lions Mane. I don’t believe Kisame can simply overcome Wild Lions Mane with physical strength; as we’ve seen that attack completely overpower a large summon to the point of crushing it into nothing. Jiraiya also has the ability to bind the enemy by touching their shadow another technique that would hard counter Kisame. With those three options, superior speed and the ability to pull summons to assist him I don’t see Jiraiya having an issue destroying him in CQC.



Food cart Destroyer only works at mid to long range, unless Jiraiya also wants to crush himself as well. But sure, at those ranges that is something that can slow/pin Kisame down in the right circumstance.  Lions Mane isn't stopping Kisame Imo. He punted back someone as large as Ponta without any issue despite the latter charging at him. The size difference between himself and the summon Jiraiya overpowered doesn't mean much. Overpowered Base Gai twice in CQC , the same guy who can break sizeable boulders. Overpowered mokuton constraints that limited his chakra, after being heavily injured by hirudora. Strong enough to parry Base Bee, who can overpower V2  Ayy if they are standing and jostling. Strong enough to match the output of Base Bee's head butt with his own headbutt. Strong enough to push down Asuma with the tip of his blade, and that was with P1 power scaling. And as I said, Samehada can bite the hair and drain Jiraiya's chakra, or shred through it before it grapples Kisame.


Base Jiraiya has no speed feats that put him above Base Gai or Base Killer Bee rofl, and Kisame didn't get blitz'd by either. And Base Bee is quite fast just from the Taka fight alone. If Jiraiya's shadow technique works anything like Shikamaru's, Kisame can straight up overpower it.  As I said, Yomi Numa is the best option for slowing Kisame down, and even then it won't win every time because Kisame can start in an ocean or make an ocean himself to start off, and I doubt Jiraiya can use an ocean as a medium for Yomi Numa.





Turrin said:


> Long Range, Kisame would do better due to his large Suitons, but Jiraiya can counter them with Bunta own Large Suitons and his Doton. The only danger would be Daikodan, but that’s a late game move; and Jiraiya is likely to get into CqC/Mid range and destroy Kisame with one of the above moves before that happens.



 Jiraiya isn't at all guaranteed a  CQC win against Kisame . At close range, he certainly isn't weaving seals more times than not on a seasoned swordsman either, which limits options  severely.  We saw that taking hits can disrupt focus/timing  for casting ninjutsu multiple times in this manga. And We already saw that Samehada can suppress the ability to cast ninjutsu by absorbing moulded chakra( see vs Kid Naruto), given that in order to use ninjutsu the chakra must mould outside your body. Moulded Chakra is mostly invisible to the naked eye, so you won't see it, but samehada would still be absorbing it if its in range.  And Rasengan isn't viable either. And he isn't beating Kisame in hand to hand without SM taijutsu, as Kisame beat Konoha's taijutsu master in that field as is.

I already covered why he isn't guaranteed a win at mid range. And at long range he loses to Daikodan. Even with Gamabunta, Gamabunta's sutions don't have any feats to suggest it can beat Kisame's more powerful suitons. and Dotons just stall the fight, they don't win it. And stalling means nothing against Kisame's chakra reserves and summoning jutsu time limit. Plus Jiraiya can't enter SM while using combination ninjutsu against Kisame, nor can he easily protect Gamabunta from Kisame without ninjutsu.





Turrin said:


> So Base-Jiraiya likely wins with Mid/Low diff depending on how the battlefield plays out. I do believe Kisame has an outside chance of winning with Daikodan, but I don’t ascribe to your logic that someone needs to win 9/10 times to be superior; I think if Jiraiya low/mid diffs 7/10 times in most scenarios; and maybe 1/10 times high diffs; and looses 2/10 times to Kisame high diff, he’s still obviously way better then him




Base Jiraiya and even Canon Jiraiya ( who needs to create space/ buy time to even enter SM) isn't beating Kisame with anything short of high diff. Because Kisame is strong enough to force Jiraiya to use the ninjutsu that would require handseals to use, and his hands are otherwise occupied when entering SM.

And all things considered.
Base Jiraiya only outclasses Kisame in terms of breadth of experience and quality of experience (fighting hanzo, chiyo, giving Pain a tough fight, etc), given his age advantage, and traveling around the world. So experienced that it was statistically probable that all 6 paths of pain were shinobi he encountered on his journeys and espionage missions.

I'd give  a specialization in Combat IQ to Kisame, given how he was reading Killer Bee's attack pattern and tactics like a book, the same Killer bee who could read and predict Minato's attacks even as a young and inexperienced perfect jinchuriki,  and Killer Bee needed to overpower Kisame with sheer physical stats to win (even if he could go full BM, that still would count as overpowering Kisame), whereas Jiraiya's intelligence is more broad. Kisame also outwitted Killer Bee by switching out with a clone mid battle without Bee noticing.  Jiraiya is close in combat IQ though given his feats against Pain, though his intelligence required some support from Pa and a tactical retreat plus prep.


In terms of relevant experience/knowledge on each other and arsenal, I'd say its even.
His arsenal is unorthodox and powerful enough to throw Kisame off guard, considering things like his ability to hide in toads, SM jutsus in general, and unique jutsu like Yomi Numa, toad stomach, oil, lion's mane, etc. But almost everything Jiraiya has outside of SM are things Kisame is experienced enough and powerful enough and equipped enough arsenal wise to counter. and Kisame can shut out Jiraiya's ability to even use ninjutsu in super close range combat. Jiraiya is experienced with chakra absorption thanks to fighting Pain, and Kisame's chakra absorption is very inferior to Pain's but unlike Pain, Kisame is actually a CQC specialist without relying on ninjutsu. and Jiraiya may have knowledge on Samehada but he doesn't have knowledge on Daikodan.

So I disagree with your assessment. I'd give Kisame the edge 6-7/10. because Base Jiraiya's methods of winning against Kisame are less reliable than vice versa, all ranges and locations considered.  So even I don't consider Kisame superior to Jiraiya, but rather as having an advantage over him.  The plot would ultimately decide who wins, and since the plot would favour Jiraiya more times than not unless he is being used to hype the villain that naruto has to defeat (like Pain) but Kisame's chances are greater imo in the Battledome.

But I do admire the fact that you at least where able to see some of my angles here, and see how Jiraiya could lose, even if you think he wins more often than he loses.

Lastly the main reason I use the logic I do is, if we assume a character is superior just because they win more times than not just because they win 6-8/10, then if Kishimoto shows a fight where the character that wins 20 percent of time wins, then you will have people claiming that they are superior when that is not at all the case.

Take Rock Lee vs Gaara for example in CE. By your logic Gaara was superior overall because Rock Lee generally had no answer to the Sand armor. But even he wasn't guaranteed a win. If rock lee took off the weights even a little bit sooner, then his body woudn't have been under as much strain by the time he was ready for the lotus. The added strain from fighting Gaara with weights combined with the strain from  fighting weightless combined with opening the first Gate is what caused his Lotus to be interrupted due to pain, and that opening is what gave Gaara the time and opportunity to substitute out without Lee noticing. Without that, the sheer speed and rotation (remember rotation significantly increases piercing power of a moving object)  of the front lotus should have killed Gaara if it connected, given that he would have landed flat on his head. But as such, Gaara had to win that for both plot and thematic purposes, Lee's genius hard work and tenacity failed valiantly against Gaara's natural talent. So most people take the fight at face value, when in reality Lee would have been able to win maybe 4/10 imo against that version of Gaara. The sand shield was already cracking from Weightless Lee before gates came into play, and was noted to have weak points.  Plot is what decided who would win that particular encounter, and there is nothing wrong with that.


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## Turrin (Aug 14, 2019)

@ThirdRidoku
I typed up a long response to everything and lost it so I don’t have the will to do so again. I’m just going to cover main points


1. You can say Gai was being cautious or it was plot but then I’m just going to say the same thing will happen if he faced someone else. The bottom line is that at Mid/Long the author allowed Kisame the ability to cast Jutsu against Gated Gai; so there is never going to be a reason for me to believe someone who can cast Jutsu faster then Kisame will not be able to cast Jutsu against Gated Gai under the same or similar circumstance. You can’t just ignore authorial intent like that; if he wanted Kisame to give

Tsunade has quicker hand seal speed then Kisame; and as such shouldn’t have a problem casting Jutsu in that situation ether; Kuchiyose also doesn’t even require hand seals. We’ve seen Hiruzen and Temari summon in situations where they couldn’t have formed seals as one was bound by Mokuton and the other was holding a fan. 

You also later cite that Base-Gai would blitz Mei before she can cast Jutsu, but Shoten Kisame and Zabuza were never blitzd before they could cast Jutsu; and they arguably have lower casting speed then Mei. 

So this is my main issue with this argument; it relies on Gai performing differently then he actually did in the manga. Base Gai never blitzd anyone at short before they could cast Jutsu; and Gates Gai never did so at long. We have to go with what’s actually shown in the manga not how we think a character should perform.

2. If you believe Kisame vs Base Jiraiya is 6/10 Kisame; that’s fine (I disagree and think Jiraiya takes it 8/10), but ether way by your own logic that means Kisame is not stronger then Base Jiraiya because he can’t win 9/10 times; and Base Jiraiya is also Low-Kage and only reaches borderline Mid-Kage with SM. So that doesn’t make me see Kisame as more then Top Jonin / Low-Kage that he could get a few wins on Base Jiraiya


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## ThirdRidoku (Aug 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. You can say Gai was being cautious or it was plot but then I’m just going to say the same thing will happen if he faced someone else. The bottom line is that at Mid/Long the author allowed Kisame the ability to cast Jutsu against Gated Gai; so there is never going to be a reason for me to believe someone who can cast Jutsu faster then Kisame will not be able to cast Jutsu against Gated Gai under the same or similar circumstance. You can’t just ignore authorial intent like that; if he wanted Kisame to give



I disagree. Because you have to acknolwedge the archetype. Gai is a taijutsu specialist. We have seen glimpses of even Rock Lee's speed against people who were portrayed to be around Kakashi/Kabuto level, and Base  rock lee is much slower than Kakashi who is much slower than Gai:






Base Gai is at a level where he can cross a distance of thirty feet in time to force a taijutsu skirmish against most characters. And unless you are significantly faster than him, then you have to WORK to escape taijutsu range, or be good enough to beat Gai at that range. Hand seals generally aren't viable against this because handseals are much more precise and slower motions then simply wild movements ling swinging your arm. Hence why Mifune was fast enough to stop Hanzo's hand seal, but wasn't so fast that Hanzo couldn't block with his scythe. 





Turrin said:


> Tsunade has quicker hand seal speed then Kisame; and as such shouldn’t have a problem casting Jutsu in that situation ether; Kuchiyose also doesn’t even require hand seals. We’ve seen Hiruzen and Temari summon in situations where they couldn’t have formed seals as one was bound by Mokuton and the other was holding a fan.



What hand seal feats suggest she is faster than Kisame? And Kuchiyose requires hand seals....  I listed them for you. Hiruzen summoned emma before being bound by the mokuton dude. He started weaving seals after witnessing Hashi's handseals and we clearly see him weaving seals in mid air as he moves on top of the doton wall. You need to look back at those panels more closely. Afterward,He placed his arm down on the wood to complete the summon. As I said, Kishimoto is inconsistent in handseal depiction. In the same arc , Sasuke sometimes shows seals for chidori and sometimes he doesn't. The logical conclusion is that Kishimoto doesn't always show the seals for panel space reason. Same thing goes for Kakashi weaving seals for Raikiri against V2 Jins and Zabuza, yet we don't see him weave seals against Obito.






Turrin said:


> You also later cite that Base-Gai would blitz Mei before she can cast Jutsu, but Shoten Kisame and Zabuza were never blitzd before they could cast Jutsu; and they arguably have lower casting speed then Mei.



Except Shoten Kisame was only seen weaving seals after Gai moved away from him significantly or Kisame forced Gai away by being superior in CQC. Zabuza wasn't blitz'd because he was surrounded by other edo tensei who could intercept Gai.   Mei's casting speed isn't particuarly fast as far as I remember.





Turrin said:


> So this is my main issue with this argument; it relies on Gai performing differently then he actually did in the manga. Base Gai never blitzd anyone at short before they could cast Jutsu; and Gates Gai never did so at long. We have to go with what’s actually shown in the manga not how we think a character should perform.



Except 7th Gates Gai was fast enough to prevent Juubidara from weaving handseals and closed the distance quick enough and trapped Juubidara in taijutsu. And we clearly see Juubidara keeping up with Gai but being on the backfoot in taijutsu. Juubidara even tried to swing his Staff down on Gai's head from above but was too slow to do so before Gai launched hirudora.





Turrin said:


> . If you believe Kisame vs Base Jiraiya is 6/10 Kisame; that’s fine (I disagree and think Jiraiya takes it 8/10), but ether way by your own logic that means Kisame is not stronger then Base Jiraiya because he can’t win 9/10 times; and Base Jiraiya is also Low-Kage and only reaches borderline Mid-Kage with SM. So that doesn’t make me see Kisame as more then Top Jonin / Low-Kage that he could get a few wins on Base Jiraiya



I agree, Kisame isn't stronger, but has an advantage and his own chances of winning. I concede to this, even if our ranking system is different.


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## Jackalinthebox (Aug 17, 2019)

Forgot about this hype for Gai. Base Gai’s casual speed >> Kakashi’s going all out


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## Turrin (Aug 17, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> I disagree. Because you have to acknolwedge the archetype. Gai is a taijutsu specialist. We have seen glimpses of even Rock Lee's speed against people who were portrayed to be around Kakashi/Kabuto level, and Base  rock lee is much slower than Kakashi who is much slower than Gai:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Kisame has a 4 in speed and 3.5 in hand-seals and was able to cast Jutsu before Gai could blitz him and Mid/Long. This is an inescapable truth. So you can hype to me Gai speed all day long but I’m still never going to agree that a character who has the same stats as Kisame or better can’t cast Jutsu before Gai blitz them because that’s not what’s shown in the Manga Canon. End of story, so ether you work with what has been shown or we end this discussion.

2. As I said Kuchiyose takes less seals the. 1K Feeding Sharks so less time to cast; and Tsunade has faster hand-seal speed (her 4 > Kisame’s 3.5) therefore I have no reason to believe she can’t summon in time if Kisame could cast 1K sharks in time; end of story 

3. Temari could not have formed seals period as she was holding the fan so; sorry but I don’t accept the excuse that Kishi just didn’t show it

4. So what your saying is that at Mid/Long Shoten-Kisame had no problem casting Jutsu against Base-Gai; despite his average 3.5 Iin hand-seals. So why should I believe Mei whose casting speed keep up with Madara will have problems at those ranges. 

And at Close range Mei can produce acid from her body without seals; so Gai goes to kick her and he’s going to have his leg melted off 

5. Yeah he was able to do that at Short Rang; not Mid/Long. At Mid/Long Kisame had no problem using an extremely complex string of hand-seals 

6. So I don’t see why Gai beating Kisame high diff is suppose to matter that much to me; I believe a Top Jonin / Low Kage can beat Kisame anyway, so that doesn’t change my opinion that Gai is top Jonin / Low Kage


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## ThirdRidoku (Aug 18, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Kisame has a 4 in speed and 3.5 in hand-seals and was able to cast Jutsu before Gai could blitz him and Mid/Long. This is an inescapable truth. So you can hype to me Gai speed all day long but I’m still never going to agree that a character who has the same stats as Kisame or better can’t cast Jutsu before Gai blitz them because that’s not what’s shown in the Manga Canon. End of story, so ether you work with what has been shown or we end this discussion.





Turrin said:


> 2. As I said Kuchiyose takes less seals the. 1K Feeding Sharks so less time to cast; and Tsunade has faster hand-seal speed (her 4 > Kisame’s 3.5) therefore I have no reason to believe she can’t summon in time if Kisame could cast 1K sharks in time; end of story



I showed you 7th Gates closing in Juubidara from a comparable distance if not greater distance than Kisame, and preventing Juubidara from doing anything offensively to him. 6th Gate can't be that far behind the 7th gate speed. Its only one Gate down, and Kisame is vastly inferior to Juubidara in every way when it comes to physical stats. So unless Kisame has juubi jin level reactions and handseal speed( which he doesn't lol), you must accept the fact that Kisame had a head start with his handseals, and Gai has no reason to risk interrupting them if he doesn't know whats coming. Completely different situation than summoning jutsu which is a known technique. So he can interrupt without any risk, given that the worst that happens is that he is standing on top of Katsuyu when Tsunade summons her in. I'm working with what has been shown, on the other hand you aren't really hearing me out. 





Turrin said:


> 3. Temari could not have formed seals period as she was holding the fan so; sorry but I don’t accept the excuse that Kishi just didn’t show it



Kuchiyose requires the drawing of blood, 5 hand seals, and bending an arm down. Not at all slower. 

I brought up the examples with chidori/raikiri, and you also ignored them. We also see Sasuke, and Kakashi seemingly creating chidori/raikiri without seals several times. Yet when the author feels like it, he shows the seals. I already told you this. He sometimes only shows snapshots of seals, or none at all.  At this point, we don't need to see all the seals all the time, because we should know them by now. In Part One, we saw the three seals needed for Raikiri. In Part 2, We see Kakashi weaving handsigns, and I can identify 2 of the 3 distinct seals being used on two different occasions, yet the entire sequence was not always shown on panel.
But I won't bother any more with this less you claim false-equivalence, as I have more than sufficient evidence otherwise:


*Spoiler*: _PROOF of inconsistent jutsu activation depiction_ 






Exhibit A
We clearly see Naruto using handseals for kuchiyose, the same 5 seals Jiraiya taught him for it just before round 2 of the chunnin tournament battles. Notice the  "FWP" sfx which is associated with handseals. And these two panels were back to back. You can confirm by relooking at the manga.



Exhibit B
Yet in the EXACT SAME FIGHT, Jiraiya appears to weave seals without weaving signs, only drawing the blood then putting his hand on the ground, which would be identical to the scans you showed of War Arc Tsunade and War Arc Sakura using kuchiyose.  And Ironically, Tsunade is the one seen making handseals for kuchiyose during the Sannin Deadlock battle in Part one here, unlike Jiriaya, and we clearly saw her draw blood for the kuchiyose in the previous panel, if you go back to the manga  and follow along. So like I said, ITS INCONSISTENTLY DEPICTED.


Because the other time Jiraiya used kuchiyose in the SAME FIGHT, he needed seals as did Kabuto, as shown by the  "FWIP sound effect" which is always associated to handseals in this context:









FKS Summit Sasuke also weaving signs for kuchiyose. Just because not all the seals are shown doesn't mean 5 aren't still required. Sometimes, the drawing of blood is omitted too, yet I don't see you addressing that:



Jiraiya just klapped his hands and his summon appeared, no blood draw, totally not inconsistent though -_-. OR, the seals are not always shown on panel. Blood draw not always drawn on panel....?



Even here, Tsunade is arguably trying to summon Katsuyu so the 5 Kage can survive the PS Slash, and the fact that she is still in the middle of a seal implies the strike would have been fast enough to hit them before she finished summoning.





And the temari thing is automatically debunked because like I said, sometimes the SEALS ARE NOT SHOWN ON PANEL. DOES NOT MEAN THEY AREN'T BEING USED. Temari's method of summoning was a bit unorthodox anyways, as swinging her fan is what created her summon somehow. So its not comparable to the traditional use of kuchiyose in the first place as far as I'm concerned. So this does not invalidate the point that TSUNADE and almost the entire verse require blood draw and hand seals, the seals Jiraiya HIMSELF used.







Turrin said:


> 2. As I said Kuchiyose takes less seals the. 1K Feeding Sharks so less time to cast; and Tsunade has faster hand-seal speed (her 4 > Kisame’s 3.5) therefore I have no reason to believe she can’t summon in time if Kisame could cast 1K sharks in time; end of story





Turrin said:


> 4. So what your saying is that at Mid/Long Shoten-Kisame had no problem casting Jutsu against Base-Gai; despite his average 3.5 Iin hand-seals. So why should I believe Mei whose casting speed keep up with Madara will have problems at those ranges.



Base Gai started kinda far away from Shoten Kisame in their first fight. About 20 meters if you pixel scale using the panel where he throws Samehada into the sky:





Gai vs Shoten Kisame opening distance


1080 pixels = panel height

1.95 meters is Kisame height, 40 pixels in panel

Gai height 1.84 meters, 84 pixels in panel


2 × arctan(tan(70 ÷ 2) × (40 ÷ 1080)) = 2.97 degrees  gives  Kisame  37.61 meters from reader POV


2 × arctan(tan(70 ÷ 2) × (84 ÷ 1080))=6.23 degrees for Gai is 16.91 meters for Gai from reader POV.


37.61 meters - 16.91 meters ~= 20 meters between Gai and Kisame

You can check my work, but even eyeballing should be sufficient.

(@Jackalinthebox , this reminds me , I owe you a calc attempt for amaterasu. Can you remind what you wanted me to scale off of?) I know it was the Kirin fight but forget exactly what.

And Shoten Kisame being able to weave seals safely at that distance isn't much of a big deal.Because at that distance,  Gai can enter Gates safely if need be as well if he really wants to, where he can showcase Asakujaku and Hirudora, both of which have mid to long range potential.
But as far as Base Gai is concerned, the better argument is about  War Arc Base Gai who was weakened from Gates backlash and a Kisame who was weakened by Hirudora. Kisame was able to complete a water prison before Base Gai could reach him.  And water prison, unlike Kuchiyose, is something that can stop Gai's forward momentum. So lets say that Tsunade who is faster than Kisame's handseal speed by the databook faces a full healthy Base  Gai:

What you are not taking away from my arguments is this. Tsunade is much slower than Gai in running speed based on basic scaling. Tsunade couldn't catch up to Orochimaru or Kabuto when they ran away from her. They had a head start, but she started chasing them right away, and couldn't close the distance until Kabuto let her, once they were both partially exhausted, and he then took it upon himself to power up with a super pill. At best, Tsunade is comparable to Kabuto in speed, since she wasn't left in the dust, but she also wasn't able to get in front of them either after running into that open field. Kabuto at best is around Kakashi's speed. Who again, is muuucccccchhhh slower than Base Gai. Its not even close. @Jackalinthebox  reposted the scan I showed you earlier in our debate. The P1 Genin could easily track Kakashi's speed, whether it was bell test, or Sakura being able to see Kakashi running toward zabuza with his *max speed* raikiri. Yet they couldn't even MENTALLY PERCIEVE BASE GAI ROFL. So Gai gets initiative.  Gai gets to control positioning. If they start a neutral distance like ten meters. He can close the distance on her even in Base if she tries to use a summoning jutsu. Now, he of course isn't fast enough to escape her mental perception, not even close. But based on scaling, it will be like Kimimaro vs Rock Lee. Tsunade will be forced to deal with Gai in CQC, and there is no way around it. Even if she gets the summon off, all that does is Give Gai a free hit. Hell, if she tries to open with summoning jutsu, he has time to open the 6th gate, And after that, she is getting bltiz'd and kicked into the air by a fiery kick. Again, she can probably react, but no better than Kisame did. The skill and speed gap is too wide for her strength to matter, and in Gates I'm giving Gai the strength advantage for several reasons. One being that he was casually fragmenting the ground when he was in taijutsu with Juubidara in 7th Gate. and she won't have time to hide in katusyu logistically. And she isn't tanking Asakakaju imo. Kisame was incredibly durable yet we saw Asakujaku kill him and evaporate a lake. And he later confirmed in the War Arc that the attack could kill him. Madara's katons burned Tsunade, showing she isn't resistant to burn damage, and it was only a small handful, not the many Gai can output:


Sure she, said she was fine. But taking more punishment than that in a short amount of time would overwhelm her healing. Hirudora also went through Daikodan and an ocean and still nearly critically injured Kisame. Tsunade has no technique that can soften the blow for her if she takes a direct hit. She would be one shotted. Hirudora also had the physical force to push back someone as physically strong as Juubidara several meters.  So is Tsunade a low Kage or what? Cause Gai is a problem for her.


The same thing goes For Mei, someone with no shown CQC ability or any respectable running speed feats. And based on scaling, Tsunade is faster than her hand seal speed. Mei kept up with Madara's ninjutsu once, when she blocked a fireball so Tsunade could get into position without having to waste any chakra healing off the fireball damage. The second time, she literally couldn't weave seals in time to stop katon dragons from Madara and lost hope. An equally exhausted Tsunade( as she lost her byakugo and almost feinted shortly after what I'm gonna say next)  was able to jump in and deflect those same katons before Mei could launch her ninjutsu:


And from eyeballing, that distance Tsunade crosses before Mei could finish her hand seals easily comparable to a ten meter distance. They saw the fireballs at roughly the same exact time, yet Tsunade could intercept the fireballs before Mei could activate a jutsu. The other 3 kage get a pass, because they weren't shown to be activating a jutsu/attempting to block/dodge the fireballs like Mei and Tsunade were. Databook puts Mei at a 3.5 in hand seal speed. and not all 3.5s are created equal, just like not at all 5s are equal.

 So Tsunade is faster than Mei's hand seal speed, And since Gai is faster than Tsunade, its a no brainer that Mei is getting blitz'd. She can't escape CQC with Gai because of the running speed gap. And she lacks the physical training needed to deal with even Base Gai's taijutsu. She won't have time to activate a substitution jutsu either, as he lacks the timing, reflexes, and other CQC skills to do so. And hasn't shown any good clone feinting skills either. So yeah, she has no chance. And I'm gonna need evidence of her being able to cast lava without any seals. Because I have seen her casting all of her best techniques using seals at different points in time. She has weaved a seal for Her Acid Mist, for her lava at the FKS, and at minimum the seal of confrontation for hidden mist against Madara.

Even the databook showcases a seal for her lava, and she used that on panel when launching the yoton at MS Sasuke. So there is at least one seal for it. And Gai is fast enough to stop that from a neutral distance.






Turrin said:


> . So I don’t see why Gai beating Kisame high diff is suppose to matter that much to me; I believe a Top Jonin / Low Kage can beat Kisame anyway, so that doesn’t change my opinion that Gai is top Jonin / Low Kage



I don't disagree with you necessarily anymore on this. Because after seeing you say That Base Jiraiya is a Low Kage, I think your own internal logic makes enough sense for your opinion.  I actually take back Gai being able to Beat Ayy more than not as well. Because going by my own logic, fights start at ten meters under most neutral condtions. Which means even in v1, where he can match KCM Naruto speed, which is much faster than Base Gai, so  if Gai tries to open a Gate he will get the juugo treatment. He would be forced to block Ayy's punch instead, and that won't end well with Ayy's physical strength. Turning on V1 and using shunshin  is a bit faster than opening A gate from what we have seen. But if Ayy lets Gai cleanly make the first move, then Ayy will be in trouble instead.


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## Shazam (Aug 18, 2019)

Depends on your tiers


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## KusageRose (Aug 18, 2019)

Shazam said:


> We got some people putting Gai above Nagato tier, and some who place him under Hebi Sasuke.


. Guy would dog shit Hebi Sasuke


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## Jackalinthebox (Aug 19, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> I showed you 7th Gates closing in Juubidara from a comparable distance if not greater distance than Kisame, and preventing Juubidara from doing anything offensively to him. 6th Gate can't be that far behind the 7th gate speed. Its only one Gate down, and Kisame is vastly inferior to Juubidara in every way when it comes to physical stats. So unless Kisame has juubi jin level reactions and handseal speed( which he doesn't lol), you must accept the fact that Kisame had a head start with his handseals, and Gai has no reason to risk interrupting them if he doesn't know whats coming. Completely different situation than summoning jutsu which is a known technique. So he can interrupt without any risk, given that the worst that happens is that he is standing on top of Katsuyu when Tsunade summons her in. I'm working with what has been shown, on the other hand you aren't really hearing me out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ama’s flames cover at least 1/3 of the two top layers of the Uchiha hideout, if not half. The 2nd to the top being 451 meters wide & 78 meters tall. The top layer being 334 meters wide & 55 meters tall

Here’s the panel:


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 19, 2019)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Forgot about this hype for Gai. Base Gai’s casual speed >> Kakashi’s going all out


Much portrayal. We also need to remember the context of that scene. It was Gai’s first appearance. In that same chapter Lee tells us that Neji was the strongest Genin in the Leaf village and in the chapter before, Lee took Sasuke and Naruto’s lunch money. Gai’s been getting hyped up literally from his first appearance.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 19, 2019)

KusageRose said:


> . Guy would dog shit Hebi Sasuke


I can’t see Hebi Sasuke getting more than mid diff against Gai with access to the 6th and the 7th Gate honestly.


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## Turrin (Aug 19, 2019)

@ThirdRidoku 

I stopped at 7TH Gate Gai closing in on Madara from a comparable distance. It was t a comparable distance. Gai was in close range against Madara and at Long/Mid against Kisame. If your not going to accept that Kisame was able to cast Jutsu against Gates Gai which was canonically shown then I think we should end this convo as I’m never going to agree with ignoring canon


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## ThirdRidoku (Aug 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I stopped at 7TH Gate Gai closing in on Madara from a comparable distance. It was t a comparable distance. Gai was in close range against Madara and at Long/Mid against Kisame. If your not going to accept that Kisame was able to cast Jutsu against Gates Gai which was canonically shown then I think we should end this convo as I’m never going to agree with i*gnoring canon*



Bruh, you been ignoring canon yourself. Claiming that summoning jutsu doesn't require handseals for Tsunade. I posted you irrefutable proof.  Even when looking back at Kakazu vs Team Shikamaru and Kakashi. We see him seemingly casting Dotonomu without seals to block Shikamaru's paper bomb. Then in the SAME FIGHT, We see him weaving a seal for Domu to block Choji's attack. Kakashi can see the seal because of his reflexes granted by sharingan. Oops, I misspoke. He can see the SEAL*S. That means even though Kishimoto only drew one seal on panel, multiple were weaved offpanel. Confirmed by Kakazu as well:

*
So if you actually read my previous post, keep this in mind as well.







Dude, wtf. You seriously call this starting from short range??? Madara himself is nearly 2 meters tall. Just eye balling, i Can fit at around 3- 4 madaras  lying down in between the madara shown on panel and the dust being kicked up by Gai. Gai isn't even VISIBLE, which means he is behind that wave of dust. meaning he is ten meters+ away from Madara at this point. Not at all that much different from Kisame and Gai *before* The 1000 hungry sharks went up, after which the distance between Kisame and Gai changed tremendously to the point where they were rediculously far away.  Both Hirudora and Daikodan are huge in comparison to both Kisame and Gai in terms of length, and there is still significant distance between even the jutsus themselves on this  next top panel:


 There is a ton of distance between the two only AFTER the 1000 hungry sharks, as *before* Kisame is at best like ten meters from Gai:



In the top panel of this scan, I approximated Kisame to be a mere 10 meters from the  point of View. And Gai himself is closer to Kisame than the reader' POV. Even though he is an off angle, he still shouldn't be that much farther than 10 meters...









@Jackalinthebox


Jackalinthebox said:


> Ama’s flames cover at least 1/3 of the two top layers of the Uchiha hideout, if not half. The 2nd to the top being 451 meters wide & 78 meters tall. The top layer being 334 meters wide & 55 meters tall
> 
> Here’s the panel:



Very interesting. Your values are remarkably similiar to those from this calc. Which means both you and the person that did the following calcs are doing something I'm not aware of:

Top layer: 56px wide and 16px tall *(317.876363636m wide and 90.8218181818m tall)*
Second layer: 74px wide and 14px tall (*420.050909091m wide and 79.4690909091m tall)*



Keep in mind, all of our calcs are a little flawed due to depth perception I believe. As the Building Sasuke is standing on is  a good distance away from the amaterasu flames that stand on the moutain steps below, making the flames appear bigger relative to the building than it should be, etc.


Nonetheless,  I scaled the building that Sasuke stand on just before Kirin to be 35 meters no problem, just like the person in the Calc I linked did ( they got 34 meters, but close enough).

But then I scaled from this panel like they did as well for the width of Amaterasu:

But for each layer I got :



97 pixels for second layer for width ofamaterasu:

69 pixels for first layer from  top for  width of amaterasu

and for the height of the building Sasuke later stands on, its 11 pixels in that panel (I'm using Google ruler btw)

35m  x 97pixels/ 11pixels= 308 meters width for Amaterasu.


35 x 69pixels/11pixels=219 meters width for Amaterasu.

For height I get 32 meters for both.

Tell me if I missed something.  Can probably also calc the depth of the amaterasu from these panels:


35 meters x 23 pixels / 225 pixels= = 3.5777777777777778 meters for the distance between the top line and third line for the 3 horizontal lines that stream the width of the dome that the 3 uchiha crest rectangular buildings stand on:









Therefore,

3.58m x 44pixels / 15  pixels  == 10.5 m for width of amaterasu.

For top layer 10.5 meters x 32 meters x  219 meters = 73584 meters cubed
For second layer 10.5 meters(probably)  x 32 meters x  308 meters=   103488 meters cubed.


Let me know if I made any horrendous errors.


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## ~Kakashi~ (Aug 21, 2019)

Oh good lord...Naruto calcs...

To buy that shit you have to believe Kishimoto was literally drawing every panel of the manga and making sure he was calculating everything properly. And if you actually believe that, then I'd question if you've ever read the manga before. 

Dude couldn't even keep his own story straight, you think he was actually focusing on mathematical calculations in every panel?

Reactions: Like 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Aug 21, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> Oh good lord...Naruto calcs...
> 
> To buy that shit you have to believe Kishimoto was literally drawing every panel of the manga and making sure he was calculating everything properly. And if you actually believe that, then I'd question if you've ever read the manga before.
> 
> Dude couldn't even keep his own story straight, you think he was actually focusing on mathematical calculations in every panel?



Lol you said it yourself, he  is inconsistent in almost all facets regardless.  If he didn't keep his story straight, why do we bother debate about who wins versus who if we can't trust the validity behind statements and feats? Because we can still make SOME sense out of the mess that is Naruto. Relevant point being, he  still gives relative sizes for things. You can see how big the uchiha mountain is compared to everything else. You can see how big daikodan and and Hirudora are compared to their casters... the quantified numbers is just reference, given that he does give heights for the ninjas in the databook and if he draws a technique much bigger  than them, you can roughly estimate the size.... But its not something to live and die by.   I've never seen him fuck up so bad that Naruto was taller than Gamabunta when they were roughly the same distance from POV for example.


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## Turrin (Aug 21, 2019)

@ThirdRidoku 

All you need to do is answer these 2 questions

1. How did Temari use hand-seals for summoning when her hands were holding up the fan ?

2. Why didn’t Gai blitz Kisame; if he could have before 1,000 feeding sharks

I don’t need an essay just answer those questions or your options on distance


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## ~Kakashi~ (Aug 21, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Lol you said it yourself, he  is inconsistent in almost all facets regardless.  If he didn't keep his story straight, why do we bother debate about who wins versus who if we can't trust the validity behind statements and feats? Because we can still make SOME sense out of the mess that is Naruto. Relevant point being, he  still gives relative sizes for things. You can see how big the uchiha mountain is compared to everything else. You can see how big daikodan and and Hirudora are compared to their casters... the quantified numbers is just reference, given that he does give heights for the ninjas in the databook and if he draws a technique much bigger  than them, you can roughly estimate the size.... But its not something to live and die by.   I've never seen him fuck up so bad that Naruto was taller than Gamabunta when they were roughly the same distance from POV for example.



The basis of debating here is just taking what techniques have done and trying to imply them, but yeah, you can run in to inconsistencies with those too.

Amaterasu, which your calcing here, is a great example. Can burn through a fire breathing toad's stomach, but it can't burn through samurai armor?

One of the reasons I tend to avoid debating for Itachi and Sasuke honestly. Weird manga regardless in terms of consistencies.


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## Jad (Aug 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @ThirdRidoku
> 
> All you need to do is answer these 2 questions
> 
> ...


By then time Gai landed hunched over Kisame was already weaving hand seals, remember Gai's mission was the seal. Landing on water and going for a straight blitz without even surveying the area for traps, clones, potential allies would be the dumbest thing for Gai. Especially if his going to blitz a character who may or may not finish their jutsu intime; at that point the potential of colliding with the attack increases (risk analysis). 

Additionally Gai can't land and except to go in a fight blindly without first doing a quick check to spot the seal's location first. By the time Gai saw it Kisame was in mid hand seal motion.

Further, Gai took care of the sharks on top but there was still some underwater, again he was after the seal not blitzing Kisame. He used Hiurdora in response to Kisame's attack as well. Gai explaining what's coming for Kisame was just a heads up warning that he's willing to use a mini nuke on him.

Finally, Hiurdora travelling at the same speed as Daikodan underwater, against a water based jutsu is a testament to how fast Hiurdora travels. We've seen how fast Hirudora travels on land against Madara attacking Naruto point blank.


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## Jackalinthebox (Aug 21, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Bruh, you been ignoring canon yourself. Claiming that summoning jutsu doesn't require handseals for Tsunade. I posted you irrefutable proof.  Even when looking back at Kakazu vs Team Shikamaru and Kakashi. We see him seemingly casting Dotonomu without seals to block Shikamaru's paper bomb. Then in the SAME FIGHT, We see him weaving a seal for Domu to block Choji's attack. Kakashi can see the seal because of his reflexes granted by sharingan. Oops, I misspoke. He can see the SEAL*S. That means even though Kishimoto only drew one seal on panel, multiple were weaved offpanel. Confirmed by Kakazu as well:
> 
> *
> So if you actually read my previous post, keep this in mind as well.
> ...


My figures came from the Kirin calc that was done in the obd a few years back. They probably used the same ones as well 

Don’t see any stand out flaws. Thanks, bud. So I was right about it easily being a few hundred meters. Dat Itachi


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Aug 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> All you need to do is answer these 2 questions
> 
> 1. How did Temari use hand-seals for summoning when her hands were holding up the fan ?
> 
> ...



The essays answer your questions if you should decide to read them, like if I'm typing out an essay, it's to be thorough as possible and reading my evidence helps the debate move forward....

1) Already answered in previous posts. And you admitted to not reading my post all the way through....  Same reason why Sasuke and Kakashi can weave chidori without handseals even though they still use handseals even up through the war Arc when Kishimoto decides to actually draw them in... Same Reason Kakazu didn't weave seals for Doton Domu in one instance, meanwhile we see one of many seals used for it in the second instance in the same fight. Images are shown above.  Can't possibly miss them. Same reason why Jiraiya summoned Gamabunta without handseals in one instance, but summoned an inferior summon when the seals were shown on panel.... Same reason why Jiraiya can summon Gamaken without drawing blood even though that's inconsistent with what we have seen.
*Temari weaving handseals while holding up the fan is no different, as she could have put the fan down and weaved the signs off panel, similiar to all the other instances lol. Plus, Like I said, her summoning jutsu is different, as merely swinging her fan created the summon. There was no black circular seal when her summon was created.*

2) Gai didn't blitz Kisame because of what this fine fellow said:



Jad said:


> *By then time Gai landed hunched over Kisame was already weaving hand seals*, remember Gai's mission was the seal. Landing on water and going for a straight blitz without even surveying the area for traps, clones, potential allies would be the dumbest thing for Gai. *Especially if his going to blitz a character who may or may not finish their jutsu intime; at that point the potential of colliding with the attack increases (risk analysis). *



This is basically what I have been saying the whole time, but said more elegantly. If Gai had the initiative, things could have went differently, which is why I consistently bring up Juubidara.... a situation where Gai had the initative to close in on his target since his target didn't get the imitative.  He doesn't know what jutsu Kisame is preparing and there is no guarantee he will close the distance in time. It depends on how many seals Kisame needed for the jutsu too.  If you want a good example of this, look at Itachi vs kurenai. Kurenai had time to weave seals on a Sharingan user like Itachi who had handseal speed fast enough to blitz  3 tomoe sharingan being wielded by Kakashi. So why would Itachi let Kurenai make the first move, when he could have easily bltiz'd her  with his own handseal speed( or even shunshin to be honest and force her into taijutsu, where he also wins) while Kisame was pushing down on Asuma with samehada? It's not because Kujrenai has god tier handseal speed. Sometimes you let your opponent make the first move in a fight as well, especially if you lack knowledge.  Distance also matters too, lets not forget.



~Kakashi~ said:


> he basis of debating here is just taking what techniques have done and trying to imply them, but yeah, you can run in to inconsistencies with those too.
> 
> Amaterasu, which your calcing here, is a great example. Can burn through a fire breathing toad's stomach, but it can't burn through samurai armor?
> 
> One of the reasons I tend to avoid debating for Itachi and Sasuke honestly. Weird manga regardless in terms of consistencies.



Perfect Example you listed here. It didn't just burn through the  fire resistant stomach of the toad, it did so NEAR INSTANTLY.  According to Kishi, Nagato's cerberus dog which no diff'd a KCM  Naruto rasenshuriken ( which puts it on par with A3 who was injured by the technique somewhat) was burned down rather quickly by the Hell Flames, implicating  Samurai Armor  > Cerberus >= A3?  Seems legit.  Literally no human shinobi worth a dam has died to Amaterasu ever since Sasuke gained ownership over the jutsu. It should have died with Itachi.





Jackalinthebox said:


> y figures came from the Kirin calc that was done in the obd a few years back. They probably used the same ones as well
> 
> Don’t see any stand out flaws. Thanks, bud. So I was right about it easily being a few hundred meters. Dat Itachi




Yeah, regardless of the inconsistencies and troubles that come from pixel scaling and such... the fact remains that Itachi did make quite alot of amaterasu in his fight against Sasuke, after using multiple karasu bunshin, tsukuyomi, and some other katons and genjutsu, plus Susano'o afterward, all while running out of stamina at around the same time as Hebi Sasuke rofl.  And even after his death, you could see the scale of it, as Yamato needed quite a large Doton to clear a path for the Sasuke rescue team when they made it to the Uchiha hideout. Not to mention there where still flames burning on the rubble from the mountain they were standing on as well. The nice thing is that Amaterasu will also continue to grow after he spreads it around like he did to Hebi Sasuke, and it's still quite fast, fast enough that V2 Ayy narrowly avoided it.


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## Turrin (Aug 22, 2019)

@ThirdRidoku

1. We see her place the blood on the fan and then immediately summon; everything happens on panel; so no she couldn’t have put the fan down and used seals off panel. Hand-seals are used for chakra control to not be wasteful of chakra, but with many Jutsu you can use those techniques without seals at the expense of more chakra

2. When Gai landed Kisame is not already forming hand-seals; he still has one hand inside the shark; so that excuse is bullshit:

What actually happened; is

1. Gai lands seeing Kisame putting the scroll inside the shark
2. Kisame responds to Gai Landing before he can blitz him by weaving hand-signs

At this point If you want to say Gai didn’t charge in because he wasn’t sure he could blitz Kisame before he completed his Jutsu that’s fine.

But why would this be any different for Tsunade, who hasn’t faster handsigns then Kisame.

Why wouldn’t go the exact same way with Gai Landing and Tsunade responding by starting to weave signs for summoning and Gai choosing not to attempt a blitz because he isn’t sure he could blitz Tsunade before she finished summoning?

There is absolutely no credible reason to assume it wouldn’t go down exactly the same as with Kisame. To say something would change in the same exact scenario with the only variable being Tsunade having quicker hand signs (or potentially not even needing hand signs for her Jutsu), is fucking ridiculously bias and in denial of canon

Oh and if you bring up one more time 7TH Gate Gai speed in a discussion about 6TH Gate Gai, I’m ending this conversation due to the sheer dishonestly of that bullshit


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## ThirdRidoku (Aug 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Oh and if you bring up one more time 7TH Gate Gai speed in a discussion about 6TH Gate Gai, I’m ending this conversation due to the sheer dishonestly of that bullshit



Except the discussion was never just about 6th Gate. We were discussing Base Gai, 6th Gate Gai and 7th Gate, I mentioned them in all my posts, , and Gai has shown the ability to jump to the 7th Gate in a fight so no Idea why you are angry about this...  But I change my mind and concede. I don't think Gai can stop her from using summoning jutsu in time if he starts in Base.   



Turrin said:


> . We see her place the blood on the fan and then immediately summon; everything happens on panel; so no she couldn’t have put the fan down and used seals off panel. Hand-seals are used for chakra control to not be wasteful of chakra, but with many Jutsu you can use those techniques without seals at the expense of more chakra



Except we don't see her summoning a black circle to make her summon. Swinging her fan did it, IDK what to tell you. I can also call a false equivalence here, because her method of summoning an animal was different than everyone else's. Where is the black summoning circle???? Why is her summon being created from simply swinging the fan? why  is she placing the blood on the fan? Everyone else places the blood on their hand/arm before summoning. And you haven't proven that summoning jutsu doesn't require seals, and you can't because we have seen people weaving seals for it multiple times, in both Part One and Part two. We have seen summoning jutsu done *without even drawing blood at all by Jiraiya,* so what's your excuse for that? I SHOWED YOU THE PANEL... So, blood draw isn't needed either Turrin? Hand signs aren't used for just saving chakra, Many jutsu REQUIRE SEALS , no matter what. It isn't always optional. And if you are at a level of chakra control that you don't need the seals for a jutsu anymore, than conserving chakra shouldn't be an issue either. You already know to mould and manipulate the precise amount of chakra needed. If you don't know to do that without help from seals, then not wasting chakra is the least of your issues, there is a high chance your jutsu fails, which is the worst possible case in a high speed battle of life and death.

The fact that Kakazu isn't seen weaving seals for Domu against Shikamaru's paper bomb  (or they are off panel as I have said lol) yet takes the time to weave seals against Choji's attack  makes no sense. Kakazu's stamina is plentiful and no need to risk Choji's attack hitting by taking extra time to weave MULTIPLE SEALS, as noted by both Kakazu and Kakashi. Choji's attack was already fast enough that simply dodging likely wasn't an option either. 









Turrin said:


> When Gai landed Kisame is not already forming hand-seals; he still has one hand inside the shark; so that excuse is bullshit:



I stand corrected here, you are right. I exaggerated the time difference there.



Turrin said:


> At this point If you want to say Gai didn’t charge in because he wasn’t sure he could blitz Kisame before he completed his Jutsu that’s fine.
> 
> But why would this be any different for Tsunade, who hasn’t faster handsigns then Kisame.



I explained that Tsunade's jutsu is* known and isn't dangerous.* Its a summoning jutsu lol. Something well known throughout the ninja world. Gai also knows her specific summon as well. Kabuto recognized what she was doing just from drawing blood. Gai will too. He charges and doesn't care that she is weaving seals for the jutsu.  If she completes the summoning jutsu it does nothing. Both of them are standing on top of Katsuyu, *and nothing has stopped his forward momentum or is threatening his life. *So he would try to charge her. But he won't make in time if he starts in Base, because Tsunade can also move or jump backward if she needs to,  and summoning jutsu creates a large smokescreen, which Tsunade could use to hide in katsuyu; even if Gai makes it on top of Katusyu he won't be able to see Tsunade...


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## Turrin (Aug 23, 2019)

@ThirdRidoku 

2. I don’t need to prove anything; you are claiming summoning can’t be used without seals, period. So the burden of proof is on you. I showed you an instance when someone clearly summons without needing seals, which disproves your premise. Now you can claim Temari is the only one who can if you want, but that is your burden to prove. As I said using seals from what we’ve seen in the manga appears to be optional in the case of many Jutsu, not required. 

3. Your entire argument crumbles from the fact that Kisame wasn’t weaving seals when Gai landed. So Gai had no reason to hesitate from fear of Kisame Jutsu. The only rational reason that Gai didn’t attempt a blitz is that he simply could not do it at that distance; and the same will apply to Tsunade. Pretty much the only thing that needs to be said here.

Base or 6TH Gate Gai isn’t blitzing Tsunade at that range before she can summon; Katsuya as a shield between them; end of story


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## ThirdRidoku (Aug 23, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I don’t need to prove anything; you are claiming summoning can’t be used without seals, period. So the burden of proof is on you. I showed you an instance when someone clearly summons without needing seals, which disproves your premise. Now you can claim Temari is the only one who can if you want, but that is your burden to prove. As I said using seals from what we’ve seen in the manga appears to be optional in the case of many Jutsu, not required.



Except we have seen everyone weaving seals for summoning except Temari, so no. Her wind fan summoned her summon. She didn't follow the traditional rules at all. Everyone else has been seen weaving signs and generating a black circle, even Pain.  And I proved things on my end, you didn't. I told you handseals can be woven off panel, and showed you the proof.




Turrin said:


> Your entire argument crumbles from the fact that Kisame wasn’t weaving seals when Gai landed. So Gai had no reason to hesitate from fear of Kisame Jutsu. The only rational reason that Gai didn’t attempt a blitz is that he simply could not do it at that distance; and the same will apply to Tsunade. Pretty much the only thing that needs to be said here.



All that proves is that Gai doesn't make the first move all the time. Doesn't mean he won't try to intercept a jutsu he knows won't harm him even if he fails to make it in  time.




Turrin said:


> Base or 6TH Gate Gai isn’t blitzing Tsunade at that range before she can summon; Katsuya as a shield between them; end of story


Base Gai isn't, but 6th Gate is. But Gai doesn't start in 6th gate anyway. Katsuya isn't a shield because it gets summoned below Tsunade, not in front. Unless you can show me her summoning Katsuyu in front of her ever.


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## Turrin (Aug 23, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Except we have seen everyone weaving seals for summoning except Temari, so no. Her wind fan summoned her summon. She didn't follow the traditional rules at all. Everyone else has been seen weaving signs and generating a black circle, even Pain.  And I proved things on my end, you didn't. I told you handseals can be woven off panel, and showed you the proof.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Actually we haven’t, your claiming that all the times other characters summoned and hand-seals weren’t shown they actually used them off panel. To which the burden of proof is on you to prove it which you can’t. 

2. If Gai doesn’t make the first move; then he won’t do so here. What part of same situation are  you failing to comprehend? If 6TH Gate Gai lands the same distance away from Tsunade as he did Kisame why the fuck would we expect any different outcome. Your expecting the character to perform differently then in canon, which is obvious bias 

3. No 6Th Gate isn’t ether as 6Th Gate couldn’t do so against the slower Kisame; stop with this denial of canon


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## ThirdRidoku (Aug 23, 2019)

1) 





Turrin said:


> Actually we haven’t, your claiming that all the times other characters summoned and hand-seals weren’t shown they actually used them off panel. To which the burden of proof is on you to prove it which you can’t.



I think we are forgetting how this started. Your claim was that Tsunade doesn't need the seals to summon.  That's a postive claim that you have yet to substantiate.When we have seen her weaving seals for summoning before. You originally based that claim on her and Sakura SEEMINGLY, not VERIFABLY, not weaving signs when they summoned Katsuyu together in the War Arc , taking what we see on panel as the gospel for something not happening. When Jiraiya in fact achieved something similiar in Part One. We see him summoning with seals on panel, other times we don't see his seals. And another time we see him weave a different seal WITHOUT DRAWING BLOOD. No reason to assume that blood and Seals aren't required when Kishimoto is inconsistent enough to not show all the details behind character actions. I PROVED this with the Kakazu example in and of itself.  >stated to be weaving multiple signs for Domu by Kakashi and himself. >Yet the reader only sees his weave one sign. That means using what we see on panel isn't enough to determine how many seals are being used.  Now, Don't get me wrong, its POSSIBLE that Tsunade may not need seals. But you haven't proven it so it isn't admissible.


2) 





Turrin said:


> 2. If Gai doesn’t make the first move; then he won’t do so here. What part of same situation are you failing to comprehend? If 6TH Gate Gai lands the same distance away from Tsunade as he did Kisame why the fuck would we expect any different outcome. Your expecting the character to perform differently then in canon, which is obvious bias



Because he knows what SUMMONING JUTSU IS. OMG. Kisame was weaving seals for a jutsu that is exclusive to him. Tsunade drawing blood and placing it on her hand telegraphs what she is about to do. Gai can ATTEMPT to intercept, because there is no immediate  danger to him from her simply summoning Katusyu. When the summon spawns in, he would be on top if it he if he starts running after recognizing what Tsunade is doing.  You are making a false equivalence here. If Tsunade weaves signs for something else, then sure, He  won't intercept until he sees the technique. But for summoning? Come on. He himself uses summoning jutsu just like what, 90 percent of the cast? He summons a turtle. If Kabuto could recognize Tsunade about to use Summoning jutsu, then why can't Gai?  Kabuto immediately took action and decided to counter it by summoning Manda for Orochimaru. Yet its impossible for Gai  to what he does best and try to close the distance like he did to Shoten Kisame?  I genuinely don't understand. We see SM Jiraiya who isn't even foremost a  taijutsu specialist moving to stop Animal Path's summoning jutsu seals with a kick.....


3) 





Turrin said:


> 3. No 6Th Gate isn’t ether as 6Th Gate couldn’t do so against the slower Kisame; stop with this denial of canon



Debunked in point 2...


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## Trojan (Aug 23, 2019)

Turrin said:


> What’s immature is not admitting when your wrong and instead leaving the thread; and then complaining when someone calls you out on it.



Am I seeing irony, or am I seeing irony?


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## Turrin (Aug 24, 2019)

@ThirdRidoku 

1. No the discussion did not start with me making the positive claim. It started with you claiming that it takes longer to summon then use Daikodan because summoning requires 5 seals while Daikodan requires 3:


ThirdRidoku said:


> That was because Gai had no reason to intercept, nor did he try to intercept.  Kisame's 1000 feeding sharks was never seen before, so Gai trying to charge in carelessly against an attack he knows nothing about would be careless, especially when he had no immediate backup in the middle of the ocean.  Kisame started weavingAnd I don't think that summoning is faster than Daikodan. Summoning requires drawing blood, weaving the  5 seals Jiraiya stated in Part One, and bending down. Daikodan requires three seals iirc.



You are making the positive claim that 5 seals are always required; so the burden is on you to prove that.

My stance is that Tsunade can use summoning as fast or faster then not Daikodan but 1K Feeding Sharks, which I said even if Hand-Seals are always required for summoning (which you haven’t proven), Tsunade should be able to cast summoning as fast as Kisame cast 1K feeding sharks due to the fact that her hand-seal speed is cited as faster then Kisame’s by the author.

2. And as I already said 100 times to you; it doesn’t matter what the Jutsu is; if Gai could blitz Kisame before he finished making seals. The only reason Gai would be worried about what Jutsu Kisame going to use is because he isn’t fast enough at that distance to blitz Kisame before he can finish casting his Technique. 

Now your putting someone who has faster hand-seals in the same situation and saying Gai would definitely be able to blitz them before they completed their seals; that’s fucking nonsense and you know it.


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## ThirdRidoku (Aug 27, 2019)

Turrin said:


> No the discussion did not start with me making the positive claim. It started with you claiming that it takes longer to summon then use Daikodan because summoning requires 5 seals while Daikodan requires 3:






Turrin said:


> You are making the positive claim that 5 seals are always required; so the burden is on you to prove that.
> 
> My stance is that Tsunade can use summoning as fast or faster then not Daikodan but 1K Feeding Sharks, which I said even if Hand-Seals are always required for summoning (which you haven’t proven), Tsunade should be able to cast summoning as fast as Kisame cast 1K feeding sharks due to the fact that her hand-seal speed is cited as faster then Kisame’s by the author.



Then we are square here.


Turrin said:


> Now your putting someone who has faster hand-seals in the same situation and saying Gai would definitely be able to blitz them before they completed their seals; that’s fucking nonsense and you know it.



Gai isn't fast enough to stop the handseals but he is gonna attempt anyway, as he has no reason not to. Tsunade completes the seals and Katsuyu is summoned, but why does that matter when Gai is now in her face?

The difference is, Kisame's jutsu was unknown while Tsunade's is. We saw base Gai moving to intercept Kisame's seals for the water prison as I said before after Kisame broke mokuton constraints, so it isnt OOC.


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## Turrin (Aug 27, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Then we are square here.
> 
> 
> Gai isn't fast enough to stop the handseals but he is gonna attempt anyway, as he has no reason not to. Tsunade completes the seals and Katsuyu is summoned, but why does that matter when Gai is now in her face?
> ...


Okay so you admit Gates Gai can’t blitz Tsunade before she finishes her seals, correct?

Okay so If Gai charged at Tsunade and she completed her seals first, and he’s right in her face when Katsuya is summoned he’s gong to get squashed by Katsuya being summoned on top of him lol


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## TBBH (Aug 27, 2019)

7th gate gai is high kage in my tier list


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 27, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Okay so you admit Gates Gai can’t blitz Tsunade before she finishes her seals, correct?
> 
> Okay so If Gai charged at Tsunade and she completed her seals first, and he’s right in her face when Katsuya is summoned he’s gong to get squashed by Katsuya being summoned on top of him lol


Why wouldn’t he be summoned on top of Katsuyu with Tsunade?


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## Turrin (Aug 27, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Why wouldn’t he be summoned on top of Katsuyu with Tsunade?


The caster has control over where the summon appears in the area around them; so if Gai is her enemy she isn’t going to summon Katsuya so it lifts him; she’d just summon it on top of Gai squashing him.


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## ThirdRidoku (Aug 27, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Okay so you admit Gates Gai can’t blitz Tsunade before she finishes her seals, correct?
> 
> Okay so If Gai charged at Tsunade and she completed her seals first, and he’s right in her face when Katsuya is summoned he’s gong to get squashed by Katsuya being summoned on top of him lol



1) Yes I agree


Turrin said:


> The caster has control over where the summon appears in the area around them; so if Gai is her enemy she isn’t going to summon Katsuya so it lifts him; she’d just summon it on top of Gai squashing him.



2) Not really, because we have seen that summoning appear under the caster's hand. and if gai is in front of Tsunade then they are both standing on top of them.  I would like to see evidence of this claim. And even if you are right, it would heavily depend on the size of Katsuyu summoned. If she summons a tiny one, then dropping it on his head does nothing. If she summons a large one, then they are both crushed, but Tsunade has the advantage because she can slip inside I guess.


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## Charmed (Aug 27, 2019)

Nope


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## Turrin (Aug 28, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> 1) Yes I agree
> 
> 
> 2) Not really, because we have seen that summoning appear under the caster's hand. and if gai is in front of Tsunade then they are both standing on top of them.  I would like to see evidence of this claim. And even if you are right, it would heavily depend on the size of Katsuyu summoned. If she summons a tiny one, then dropping it on his head does nothing. If she summons a large one, then they are both crushed, but Tsunade has the advantage because she can slip inside I guess.



Okay first why would she summon a tiny one and not boss Katsuya against Gated Gai? Obviously she is going to summon Boss Katsuya.

A far as evidence that the summon controls the location around them; I can give you plenty of examples.

When Hiruzen summons enma he doesn’t summon Enma underneath him, but is able to summon him right in front of him on top of a tree branch:

Jiraiya summons a toad in-front of him to block Kisame strike:

Sasuke Summons a Snake around himself as a shield:

Pain summons a Panda behind himself as a shield:

Pain summons two summon in-front of himself:

And so on.

——
So yeah if Gate Gai is charging Tsunade she has no reason to simply summon Katsuya beneath her. She would ether summon Katsuya in-front of her to block Gai path and potential squash him; or around herself as a shield like Sasuke did with his Snake. Ether way Gai assault is being stopped and worse case scenario Gai is dying.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> The caster has control over where the summon appears in the area around them; so if Gai is her enemy she isn’t going to summon Katsuya so it lifts him; she’d just summon it on top of Gai squashing him.


Is that how it works? Where’s your evidence for that?

*EDIT*

I’m unconvinced. Do you have an example of someone trying to close the distance to stop a summon and having the summon dropped on them when they’re right next to the summoner?


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## Turrin (Aug 28, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Is that how it works? Where’s your evidence for that?
> 
> *EDIT*
> 
> I’m unconvinced. Do you have an example of someone trying to close the distance to stop a summon and having the summon dropped on them when they’re right next to the summoner?


This is ridiculous I showed you direct examples of them controlling where the summon appears. You asking for a direct example of an ultra specific scenario is irrelevant. It’s like me asking you for an example of Gai kicking through a tree even though we know he could do it. To make matters worse another Sannin even has shown a move where he specifically summons his Summon on top of the enemy lol

So please dont even bother quoting me with this dishonestly unwilling to admit your wrong BS


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> This is ridiculous I showed you direct examples of them controlling where the summon appears. You asking for a direct example of an ultra specific scenario is irrelevant. It’s like me asking you for an example of Gai kicking through a tree even though we know he could do it. To make matters worse another Sannin even has shown a move where he specifically summons his Summon on top of the enemy lol
> 
> So please dont even bother quoting me with this dishonestly unwilling to admit your wrong BS


So... you do the have an example of someone right in front of a summoner being moved to the bottom while the summoner appears on top?


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## ShinAkuma (Aug 28, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> So... you do the have an example of someone right in front of a summoner being moved to the bottom while the summoner appears on top?



You can't be serious.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 28, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> You can't be serious.


Is that a yes or a no?


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## ShinAkuma (Aug 28, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Is that a yes or a no?



It's simply a dishonest form of debate. No different than asking if Gai has ever kicked character X and as such if we don't see it it could not happen.

You are asking for a specific application of something proven to be established. I can see the argument for not squashing Gai with Katsuyu, but it's clear the summoner can place the summon between them and another person.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 28, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> It's simply a dishonest form of debate. No different than asking if Gai has ever kicked character X and as such if we don't see it it could not happen.
> 
> You are asking for a specific application of something proven to be established. I can see the argument for not squashing Gai with Katsuyu, but it's clear the summoner can place the summon between them and another person.


It really isn’t the same. Anyone can throw a kick. Yes. Tsunade can summon her slug in front of her if she wants. What Turin was saying is that if Gai is right in front of her, he won’t be summoned on top of the slug with her, but that she would be on top and he would be underneath it.


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## ShinAkuma (Aug 28, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> It really isn’t the same. Anyone can throw a kick. Yes. Tsunade can summon her slug in front of her if she wants. What Turin was saying is that if Gai is right in front of her, he won’t be summoned on top of the slug with her, but that she would be on top and he would be underneath it.



I'm sure the summon could be used to push Gai away at the very least if he were close. I don't see a summon as showing up and squishing somebody as the summon should displace people and things in it's immediate summon area but it should be capable of pushing an opponent away.


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 28, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I'm sure the summon could be used to push Gai away at the very least if he were close. I don't see a summon as showing up and squishing somebody as the summon should displace people and things in it's immediate summon area but it should be capable of pushing an opponent away.


That might be true, but that wasn’t the argument that was being made.



Turrin said:


> Okay so If Gai charged at Tsunade and she completed her seals first, and he’s right in her face when Katsuya is summoned he’s gong to get squashed by Katsuya being summoned on top of him lol


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## ThirdRidoku (Aug 28, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Okay first why would she summon a tiny one and not boss Katsuya against Gated Gai? Obviously she is going to summon Boss Katsuya.
> 
> A far as evidence that the summon controls the location around them; I can give you plenty of examples.
> 
> ...




Okay fair enough. You win this.


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## Turrin (Aug 29, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Okay fair enough. You win this.


Thanks man refreshing to see someone who can see the view point of others

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Aug 29, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> So... you do the have an example of someone right in front of a summoner being moved to the bottom while the summoner appears on top?


I never said Tsunade would need to be moved in top; I said Gai would be squashed by Katsuya or Katsuya would be summoned in between them shrilling Tsunade. We’ve seen Hiruzen summon Enma in-front of him and ontop of Mokuton Tree branch. If Hiruzen can summon Enma that way there is no reason Tsunade couldn’t summon Katsuya in-front of her and on top of Gai:


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## Lee-Sensei (Aug 30, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I never said Tsunade would need to be moved in top; I said Gai would be squashed by Katsuya or Katsuya would be summoned in between them shrilling Tsunade. We’ve seen Hiruzen summon Enma in-front of him and ontop of Mokuton Tree branch. If Hiruzen can summon Enma that way there is no reason Tsunade couldn’t summon Katsuya in-front of her and on top of Gai:


Do you have the scan? If you want to say that it would desperate her from a Gai, fine. But if he’s right in front of her, I see no evidence that she would end up on top of her Summon and That Gai would be squashed by it.


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## Turrin (Sep 1, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Do you have the scan? If you want to say that it would desperate her from a Gai, fine. But if he’s right in front of her, I see no evidence that she would end up on top of her Summon and That Gai would be squashed by it.


Again never said that please learn to read

I said Katsuya would be summoner on top of Gai; not on top of Gai and underneath Tsunade


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## Lee-Sensei (Sep 1, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Again never said that please learn to read
> 
> I said Katsuya would be summoner on top of Gai; not on top of Gai and underneath Tsunade


You’re trying to weasel out of this on a technicality. Given the size of Katsuyu and that Gai in this scenario, would be right in front of her... how would she be able to summon her slug with such precision as to drop it on Gai with out getting caught underneath with him?


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## Turrin (Sep 1, 2019)

Lee-Sensei said:


> You’re trying to weasel out of this on a technicality. Given the size of Katsuyu and that Gai in this scenario, would be right in front of her... how would she be able to summon her slug with such precision as to drop it on Gai with out getting caught underneath with him?


The same way Hiruzen summoner Emma ontop of a tree branch in front of him


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## ZmkSc (Sep 1, 2019)

In 7th gate he can be troublesome to most of my high kage tier and even beat some. Overall i think he is probably on the borderline of elite(high) kage level. Gai, war arc MS kakashi, MS itachi and MS sasuke are all situational elite kage level. They can operate on high level but not for too long and in exchange they suffer from temporal and may even permanent drawbacks that make them get weaker(MS users but not gai). and if they chose not to use that power, they would fall heavily in the kage tier. to be solid high kage, i think you need to be comfortable with the part of your arsenal that qualifies to high kage. once itachi became edo and sasuke got EMS, they were considered truly high kage. also  If you gave MS kakashi some hashirama cells like obito, he would also be high kage level imo.


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