# Pokemon Tournament



## Patchouli (Oct 10, 2013)

Welcome Trainers from all over the world to the NF League! Daring Trainers who enter this league will be pit against the 8 Gym Leaders of this region. If you're lucky, you may even make it all the way to the Elite Four! The skilled Trainers that manage to defeat them will have a chance to face off against our Champion. Fabulous prizes await the Trainer who is able to defeat our Champion, as well as hold their title against all who would challenge them!

*WHAT IS THIS?*

This is a tournament that is structured in the same way Pokemon Leagues are done. The matches will be host on Pokemon Showdown so they're accessible to everyone who wants to participate. People who sign-up as Trainers will battle against all volunteer Gym Leaders, the Elite Four, and the Champion. If a trainer is able to defeat all of those mentioned above, this trainer will become the new Champion. As the new Champion, it will be this trainer's duty to defend their title against all the other remaining trainers.

Once all trainers are defeated, the tournament is over. If at that time there's a player Champion, this player will be showered with prizes that have yet to be determined.

There will be a maximum number of players. As to how many that will be, that's going to be adjusted based on interest.

*VOLUNTEERS*

All of the Gym Leaders, Elite Four, and the original Champion will be volunteers. We're looking for people who are accessible and have free time on their hands. All volunteers will be compensated with mod rep for their hard work.

Due to time zone differences, there will be no order the Gym Leaders need to be faced. This rule will likely be the same for the Elite Four as well.

Volunteers will have element themed parties. Either all or majority of their pokemon will be of the same type. For example, the Fire Gym Leader will use mostly/entirely fire type pokemon. The exception to this rule is the Champion, who will be able to use Pokemon of any type.

*MATCHES*

Players will schedule matches with volunteers via VM's. Once you both have agreed upon a time, the player will then post that time/date in the tournament thread. All matches will be publicly viewable. Along with that, every match needs to be watched by a coordinator in order to be considered a real match.

*PRIZES?*

No matter the format this tournament takes, one thing is for sure.

The first prize winner will receive permanent sparkles, permanent custom user title and they get ONE DAY to upload a 150x200 avatar that will also be permanent provided they never change it after the first day.

OR

3 months worth of sparkles, custom user title of your choosing, and 150x200 avatar.

If we get enough people to volunteer for the gym leader/elite four idea, the reward will probably be rep based. So an initial set amount of rep plus a bonus for each participant they beat.

*ANY CATCHES?*

Everything about this, even down to the structure of the tournament, is dependent on how much interest this receives. Keep in mind, we'll need 12 volunteers (8 gyms, 4 elite four) And even that is assuming we get enough interest to get that many volunteers as well as players. We could end up switching to a traditional tournament format. 

Putting this up so we can get feedback on how we do this. Any sort of feedback is greatly appreciated!


----------



## Malvingt2 (Oct 10, 2013)

Mega evo should not be part of this. Imo


----------



## Naruto (Oct 10, 2013)

Malvingt2 said:


> Mega evo should not be part of this. Imo



This is probably going to be Gen 1~5 only, there is little infrastructure in place for new pokes.



Patchouli said:


> volunteer champion



No need, silly. First person to beat all the leaders/elite four is the first champion.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 10, 2013)

Malvingt2 said:


> Mega evo should not be part of this. Imo





Naruto said:


> This is probably going to be Gen 1~5 only, there is little infrastructure in place for new pokes.
> 
> 
> 
> No need, silly. First person to beat all the leaders/elite four is the first champion.



I don't think Pokemon Showdown supports X and Y stuff yet. As Naruto said, this will be Gen 1-5 stuff. We'll have a banlist of Pokemon that are considered not so great for tournaments. Will have a list of them up a bit later, but I can say for sure that includes any legendary.



> No need, silly. First person to beat all the leaders/elite four is the first champion.



Perfect.


----------



## Naruto (Oct 10, 2013)

If we don't get enough people, we could and should just run a regular tournament.

Either way, first prize is set in stone:

Permanent sparkles, permanent custom user title and they get ONE DAY to upload a 150x200 avatar that will also be permanent provided they never change it after the first day.

*OR*

3 months worth of: sparkles, custom user title of your choosing, and 150x200 avatar.

If we get enough people to volunteer for the gym leader/elite four idea, the reward will probably be rep based. So an initial set amount of rep plus a bonus for each participant they beat.

Patchouli, feel free to update the prizes section of the OP.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 10, 2013)

I might play, depends if I have the available time though.

EDIT: Depending on how quickly I'm able to raise my team, I'd be interested in being a gym leader.

EDIT #2: Actually I just read that this will be for Gen's 1-5, perfect.


----------



## Shiny (Oct 10, 2013)

how this game works? im interested


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 10, 2013)

Shiny said:


> how this game works? im interested



It will work the same way Pokemon battles are handled in the games. Pokemon Showdown will allow us to hold online battles. If you've ever played any of the Pokemon games, expect basically that same gameplay. :33


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 10, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> Welcome Trainers from all over the world to the NF League! Daring Trainers who enter this league will be pit against the 8 Gym Leaders of this region. If you're lucky, you may even make it all the way to the Elite Four! The skilled Trainers that manage to defeat them will have a chance to face off against our Champion. Fabulous prizes await the Trainer who is able to defeat our Champion, as well as hold their title against all who would challenge them!
> 
> *WHAT IS THIS?*
> 
> ...





I'd love to be a volunteer!


----------



## Shiny (Oct 10, 2013)

ill play it


----------



## SinRaven (Oct 10, 2013)

I'd love to play it, but I'm not good at competitive playing in Pok?mon. 

Maybe I'll volunteer as a gym leader/elite four member. Dibs on dark. :33


----------



## Saru (Oct 10, 2013)

what a good idea 

I'm all in 

I wish I had the spare time to be a gym leader, but unfortunately I don't have that luxury any longer


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 10, 2013)

To everyone who wants to join/volunteer, thank you! 

Depending on how many people show interest in this, the format could change. So I'm not putting sign-ups up quite yet. But when I do, I'll have you guys on them when they're first put up. :33



Olivia said:


> EDIT: Depending on how quickly I'm able to raise my team, I'd be interested in being a gym leader.



This will all be hosted on Pokemon Showdown, so you won't need to level up any Pokemon to join in. Just build your team on there and you're good to go.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 10, 2013)

I have a question about the challenger: Would they be able to change their team before each gym fight? Or must they take that same team through the whole challenge? For the E4 portion, it'll probably be the same as in game (i.e. you go in with 6, come out with the same 6, win or lose)?


----------



## Olivia (Oct 10, 2013)

Alright thanks, I'm on the website right now (since the download didn't work for me >.>).


----------



## Naruto (Oct 10, 2013)

You guys can just use the website, it works fine. No need to download anything.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 10, 2013)

BiNexus said:


> I have a question about the challenger: Would they be able to change their team before each gym fight? Or must they take that same team through the whole challenge? For the E4 portion, it'll probably be the same as in game (i.e. you go in with 6, come out with the same 6, win or lose)?



Yes, they would. At least for the gyms.

But once a player takes on the Elite Four, they're locked into the same team for the duration of those matches.


----------



## Naruto (Oct 10, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> Yes, they would. At least for the gyms.
> 
> But once a player takes on the Elite Four, they're locked into the same team for the duration of those matches.





BiNexus said:


> I have a question about the challenger: Would they be able to change their team before each gym fight? Or must they take that same team through the whole challenge? For the E4 portion, it'll probably be the same as in game (i.e. you go in with 6, come out with the same 6, win or lose)?



You might want to rethink that, because if people get to change their teams, then they can easily form teams that beat the current champion, which would make it unfair for the ones that get there early.

People shouldn't be able to change their initially registered teams.


----------



## Chaos (Oct 10, 2013)

I would like to volunteer as a gym leader.

I will be using the Poison type.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 10, 2013)

Naruto said:


> You might want to rethink that, because if people get to change their teams, then they can easily form teams that beat the current champion, which would make it unfair for the ones that get there early.
> 
> People shouldn't be able to change their initially registered teams.



I think that can be remedied. Once a week (may be up for discussion, but I think that's fair) the Gym leaders and E4 can change 1 (may be up for discussion) member of their team, as long as it coincides to the ban list/their respective type--of course, the champion would only be restricted by the ban list with this change. Making this change unknown to the challengers can help any stacking to beat a certain Leader.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 10, 2013)

Naruto said:


> You might want to rethink that, because if people get to change their teams, then they can easily form teams that beat the current champion, which would make it unfair for the ones that get there early.
> 
> People shouldn't be able to change their initially registered teams.



I hadn't considered that. 

Then if we let the Champion freely change their teams after becoming Champion, then they could just as easily make their teams impossibly hard for challenger teams. So that'd be a bad route to go down.

Locking in initial teams may be something we have to strongly consider.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 10, 2013)

I was thinking of doing an Eevee gym, but I'll probably decide on a specific type.

As for the E4 and Champion, I think it'd be best if they are locked into a certain team they pick for at least that portion of the battles. Maybe they can choose twelve pokemon total (and post the twelve in this thread) for the entire tournament, and with that they can switch which pokemon they want for the different gym battles/e4 and champion. 

Again, I think at least between the E4 and Champion the player must stay with the same six pokemon, just like how it is in all the games.


----------



## Naruto (Oct 10, 2013)

BiNexus said:


> I think that can be remedied. Once a week (may be up for discussion, but I think that's fair) the Gym leaders and E4 can change 1 (may be up for discussion) member of their team, as long as it coincides to the ban list/their respective type--of course, the champion would only be restricted by the ban list with this change. Making this change unknown to the challengers can help any stacking to beat a certain Leader.



It's not beating the leaders that's a problem, it's prospective champions beating current champions. Leaders and the elite four will be crippled in their pokemon selection, normal participants far less so. It's already rigged in favor of the player and not the gym leaders anyway.

The problem is this: imagine someone makes it through all the gyms and becomes the first champion. What would happen then, if the next person, first to challenge the new champion, got the chance to change his team before battling? He would counter the current champion's team.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 10, 2013)

Naruto said:


> It's not beating the leaders that's a problem, it's prospective champions beating current champions. Leaders and the elite four will be crippled in their pokemon selection, normal participants far less so. It's already rigged in favor of the player and not the gym leaders anyway.
> 
> The problem is this: imagine someone makes it through all the gyms and becomes the first champion. What would happen then, if the next person, first to challenge the new champion, got the chance to change his team before battling? He would counter the current champion's team.



The last time said challenger would be able to change his team would be prior to facing the first Elite. His team would not only have to counter the Champion's but all the E4 as well, which can be done, but is a bit harder--especially if we pick types that compliment each other well. It is also a further reason to support periodical team changes. Also, I believe the Champion should be given the ability to completely swap out their team once they've been crowned, without any announcement of the changes.

'Flavour-wise' it doesn't make sense: "You got me all this way guys, but kthxbai; new team up in hurr." but it allows everyone to be able to be as fluid and free as possible and try new things, I think.

But then comes the issue of rematches with the Elite + Champion . Maybe a waiting period between a loss to the Champion and playing them again?


----------



## Naruto (Oct 10, 2013)

BiNexus said:


> The last time said challenger would be able to change his team would be prior to facing the first Elite. His team would not only have to counter the Champion's but all the E4 as well, which can be done, but is a bit harder, especially if we pick types that compliment each other well. It is also a further reason to support periodical team changes. Also, I believe the Champion should be given the ability to completely swap out their team once they've been crowned, without any announcement of the changes.



Then you have another problem. The first to be champion has an edge because he sees the upcoming challengers' teams in advance.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 10, 2013)

BiNexus said:


> The last time said challenger would be able to change his team would be prior to facing the first Elite. His team would not only have to counter the Champion's but all the E4 as well, which can be done, but is a bit harder, especially if we pick types that compliment each other well. It is also a further reason to support periodical team changes. Also, I believe the Champion should be given the ability to completely swap out their team once they've been crowned, without any announcement of the changes.



If we went down that route, then the challenger would need to be able to do the same thing. Keep in mind, with Pokemon Showdown, all of the matches will be publicly viewable. The Champion could just watch what team the Challenger has in store for him and swap as needed.

I do like Olivia's idea of having a limited number of reserve Pokemon. So long as the challenger and champion both have the option to switch out Pokemon with their reserves, and so long as neither know what teams they'll be facing - then that could work out. 

I think.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 10, 2013)

Naruto said:


> Then you have another problem. The first to be champion has an edge because he sees the upcoming challengers' teams in advance.





Patchouli said:


> If we went down that route, then the challenger would need to be able to do the same thing. Keep in mind, with Pokemon Showdown, all of the matches will be publicly viewable. The Champion could just watch what team the Challenger has in store for him and swap as needed.
> 
> I do like Olivia's idea of having a limited number of reserve Pokemon. So long as the challenger and champion both have the option to switch out Pokemon with their reserves, and so long as neither know what teams they'll be facing - then that could work out.
> 
> I think.



Hmm, that is true...I'm liking the concept of a reserve pool. Any ideas on size?


----------



## Saru (Oct 10, 2013)

Naruto said:


> Then you have another problem. The first to be champion has an edge because he sees the upcoming challengers' teams in advance.



not trying to open another can of worms, but what would the list of usable Pokemon look like? 

I would assume that, logically, Legends are banned.  

a banlist of some sort is a pretty big deal.


----------



## SinRaven (Oct 10, 2013)

Olivia said:


> As for the E4 and Champion, I think it'd be best if they are locked into a certain team they pick for at least that portion of the battles. Maybe they can choose twelve pokemon total (and post the twelve in this thread) for the entire tournament, and with that they can switch which pokemon they want for the different gym battles/e4 and champion.
> 
> Again, I think at least between the E4 and Champion the player must stay with the same six pokemon, just like how it is in all the games.



I agree with this. A pool of twelve pok?mon is perfect, in my opinion. Completely free changing would make the gym leader battles (and perhaps even the elite four and its champion) a joke. A competitioner could just create the perfect counter to a team each match, which obviously isn't fair.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 10, 2013)

Is this wifi based, or will it be pokemon showdown? If its showdown then I would happily volunteer to be a gym leader or elite 4 member.

Also will this be smogon tier based, or will we all have themes?


----------



## SinRaven (Oct 10, 2013)

I highly advice Xiammes to read the OP.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 10, 2013)

Space said:


> I highly advice Xiammes to read the OP.



My questions have been answered, except for if non uber legendary's can be used, still will happily volunteer to be a gym leader or elite 4 member, I'm pretty open, I work on the weekends but thats about it.

For challengers, they must use one of the starters on their team, at least I think that would be a good idea.



> I would assume that, logically, Legends are banned.



Not all Legendary's are strong, ubers should be a logically banned.


----------



## Naruto (Oct 10, 2013)

I have to go to bed so I'll give better answers tomorrow, but here's the gist of it:

The rules are ultimately whatever most of you are comfortable with, so feel free to discuss them because nothing is set in stone yet.

Banlists are also going to be up for discussion, but off the top of my head, no legendaries (mostly because it would be weird for leaders to have them) and the rest is basically going to be a choice of smogon tiers and clauses probably.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 10, 2013)

What Naruto said about banlists more of less sums up how I feel. Smogon tiers would be the easiest to work with. But no matter the tier, I think Legendaries should just stay out of it.

But everything is up for discussion. :33


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 10, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> What Naruto said about banlists more of less sums up how I feel. Smogon tiers would be the easiest to work with. But no matter the tier, I think Legendaries should just stay out of it.
> 
> But everything is up for discussion. :33



2 OU, 2 UU, 2 RU pokemon for each team For Gym Leaders.
Elite 4 can be 3 OU and 3 UU?


----------



## Olivia (Oct 10, 2013)

Someone's going to have to teach me what these abbreviations mean.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 10, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> 2 OU, 2 UU, 2 RU pokemon for each team For Gym Leaders.
> Elite 4 can be 3 OU and 3 UU?



That sounds fair, as long as the challengers' teams have tier restrictions as well.



Olivia said:


> Someone's going to have to teach me what these abbreviations mean.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 10, 2013)

Olivia said:


> Someone's going to have to teach me what these abbreviations mean.



OU = Overused
UU = Underused
RU = rarely used

Basically smogon tiers pokemon based on how much they are used, that way fans always have a tier they can use their favorite pokemon. OU is the main competitive tier where the strongest non banned pokemon compete. UU pokemon are strong  but not enough OU, and so forth.




> That sounds fair, as long as the challengers' teams have tier restrictions as well.



I don't know what would be the best restrictions, I was thinking the same restrictions, but they have to pick at least one starter pokemon. When they challenge the Elite 4 they can buff up to 3 OU and 3 UU. The champion can use all OU.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 10, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> 2 OU, 2 UU, 2 RU pokemon for each team For Gym Leaders.
> Elite 4 can be 3 OU and 3 UU?



That sounds like it could work so long as the restriction doesn't fall on Trainers. (I think OU should be the highest tier accessible by anyone, but I think a trainer should be allowed to roll with a team of all OU's if they so desire. )

Keep in mind, the current plan is that once a trainer loses a match, they're done - it's game over for them. So given how many matches they'd have to complete, the odds need to be in the trainer's favor. That's one reason Gym Leaders/Elite Four have element themes to them. 



Olivia said:


> Someone's going to have to teach me what these abbreviations mean.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 10, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> That sounds like it could work so long as the restriction doesn't fall on Trainers. (I think OU should be the highest tier accessible by anyone, but I think a trainer should be allowed to roll with a team of all OU's if they so desire. )
> 
> Keep in mind, the current plan is that once a trainer loses a match, they're done - it's game over for them. So given how many matches they'd have to complete, the odds need to be in the trainer's favor. That's one reason Gym Leaders/Elite Four have element themes to them.



I think E4 should be able to have 4 at the very least then, and the Champion can roll with a full team of OU, if they so choose.


----------



## SinRaven (Oct 10, 2013)

If we limit gym leader/elite four teams to a certain amount of a certain tier, I think the competitors' pool should be limited as well. It's not fair if they can simply pick the strongest Pok?mon available. Sure, gym leaders are meant to be beaten (in a way), but the adventure shouldn't be an easy one. I think it's more fun and challenging for both the challenger and the challenged if the match-ups are fair.

In fact: what about a pool for gym leaders and such as well? Sure, their pool is still limited to the typing of their choice, but it at least makes their teams hella lot less predictable.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 10, 2013)

> Keep in mind, the current plan is that once a trainer loses a match, they're done - it's game over for them.



How about each win they get 1 badge, but if the lose, they get their last two badges removed, once you run out of badges its over.


----------



## Cobalt (Oct 10, 2013)

This sounds pretty interesting can I join in?


----------



## SinRaven (Oct 10, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> That sounds like it could work so long as the restriction doesn't fall on Trainers. (I think OU should be the highest tier accessible by anyone, but I think a trainer should be allowed to roll with a team of all OU's if they so desire. )
> 
> Keep in mind, the current plan is that once a trainer loses a match, they're done - it's game over for them. So given how many matches they'd have to complete, the odds need to be in the trainer's favor. That's one reason Gym Leaders/Elite Four have element themes to them.



Hm, ninja'd by this post. As much as I understand this for making the gym leaders/elite four's chances a little lower, I still think the teams should be divided equally amongst tiers. Hell, the element restriction for gym leaders is one hell of a handicap already.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 10, 2013)

Space said:


> Hm, ninja'd by this post. As much as I understand this for making the gym leaders/elite four's chances a little lower, I still think the teams should be divided equally amongst tiers. Hell, the element restriction for gym leaders is one hell of a handicap already.



I pray for who ever gets the ice type gym.


----------



## Tsunami (Oct 10, 2013)

I would like to join.. I could also volunteer if needed


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 10, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> I pray for who ever gets the ice type gym.



 You and me both haha.


----------



## SinRaven (Oct 10, 2013)

On second thought, never mind the dibs on Dark. I actually prefer Flying.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 10, 2013)

Seeing as some are starting to call dibs...I call dibs on Steel! Steven Stone was outta this world.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 10, 2013)

I personally don't care, I'll take anything but ice.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm thinking of either Electric of Fire. (Not sure if anyone has called dibs on these yet)

Or actually, maybe Psychic. 

EDIT: Fuck it, calling dibs on Fire.


----------



## SinRaven (Oct 10, 2013)

We should all have our own gym leader sprites.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 10, 2013)

Space said:


> We should all have our own gym leader sprites.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 10, 2013)

On the topic of Trainer/Gym balance, there's still plenty that needs to be worked out before the tournament is ready to go. :33

For Trainer Sprites, you guys don't want me making those. I can't do pixel art to save my life. But if anyone here can, and is willing to make sprites for everyone, I've got no objections. 

This has no bearing on the tournament itself, and is purely here for fun, but Gym leaders should make up names for their Character, City, Badge, and a nickname. 



Cobalt said:


> This sounds pretty interesting can I join in?



Of course! Anyone is free to join. :33



Tsunami said:


> I would like to join.. I could also volunteer if needed



Excellent.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 10, 2013)

You can choose sprites on Pok?mon Showdown; they should have sprites already available


----------



## Tsunami (Oct 10, 2013)

Excellent. 
I'd prefer to volunteer also


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 10, 2013)

This sounds fun, if I do this I'll do the ice gym

Kyurem-B in yo face


----------



## Death-kun (Oct 10, 2013)

I volunteer for a position if they aren't all taken at this point. However, wouldn't a much better program to use be Pokemon Online?

Anyway, I'd like to choose Water, Dragon or Steel. If they aren't all taken already, that is. Water preferred.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 10, 2013)

Pok?mon Online and Pok?mon Showdown are pretty much the same iirc. And don't even look at the steel typing Death-Kun, don't even look at it . And it seems we have ~10 people atm. We need moar!


----------



## Immortal (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm very interested, but I play Pokemon extremely casually. I could give competing a shot or I could be a gym leader. If its the latter, I've got dibs on fire


----------



## Immortal (Oct 10, 2013)

Fuck, mom beat me to it. I'd take psychic or electric if that's taken too lmfao.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 10, 2013)

They aren't taken.


----------



## Tsunami (Oct 10, 2013)

Can I dibs Dark type? Can I do that?


----------



## Bioness (Oct 10, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> I pray for who ever gets the ice type gym.



There are 17 types, 12 Elite 4/Gym Leaders, so 5 types will be unused. And Ice types are good if you know how to play with them.

I'll volunteer for an Elite 4/Gym Leader position.

*Type: Ice*

* Might also be open to Grass


Saru said:


> not trying to open another can of worms, but what would the list of usable Pokemon look like?
> 
> I would assume that, logically, Legends are banned.
> 
> a banlist of some sort is a pretty big deal.



No, simply banning legendaries would not be ideal. The Smogon Uber tier list is pretty good for who to ban.

Arceus-Ice
Arceus-Bug
Arceus-Electric
Arceus-Fighting
Arceus-Fire
Arceus-Flying
Arceus-Ghost
Arceus-Grass
Arceus-Ground
Arceus-Dragon
Arceus-Normal
Arceus-Poison
Arceus-Psychic
Arceus-Rock
Arceus-Steel
Arceus-Water
Arceus-Dark
Kyurem-W
Rayquaza
Palkia
Mewtwo
Zekrom
Lugia
Dialga
Reshiram
Ho-Oh
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Kyogre
Deoxys-D
Shaymin-S
Landorus
Deoxys-S
Manaphy
Genesect
Deoxys
Darkrai	Dark
Deoxys-A
Thundurus
Tornadus-T
Blaziken
Excadrill

We could make an exception for Blaziken and Excadrill* IF *they are without their dreamworld abilities.

Also following some other rules such as the clauses would be good.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 10, 2013)

Bioness said:


> There are 17 types, 12 Elite 4/Gym Leaders, so 5 types will be unused. And Ice types are good if you know how to play with them.
> 
> I'll volunteer for an Elite 4/Gym Leader position.
> 
> ...



I'm still on the fence about what should/shouldn't be about the banlist, but just pointing out one thing: Excadrill is in Ubers because of one of his regular abilities: Sand Rush. The DW ability thing holds true for Blaziken though.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 10, 2013)

Sprites will be useless, someone creating some badges might be cool.

I guess I call dibs on water gym.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 10, 2013)

BiNexus said:


> I'm still on the fence about what should/shouldn't be about the banlist, but just pointing out one thing: Excadrill is in Ubers because of one of his regular abilities: Sand Rush. The DW ability thing holds true for Blaziken though.



 You're right, for some reason I thought it was his dream world ability, scratch that then.

A problem I see is that so many of the Uber legendaries are Psychic or Dragon so that would unfairly give make certain Gyms/E4 better, unless you were to only allow 1 "Uber", which even that is bad because some of them could easily sweep an entire team.

So as a baseline the banlist/Uber is pretty fair, however to those who don't play competitively they might not understand why certain Pokemon are in the tier that they are, a notable example is Kyurem and Kyurem-B not being Uber.



Xiammes said:


> Sprites will be useless, someone creating some badges might be cool.
> 
> I guess I call dibs on water gym.



Death-kun was the first to call Water, may have to fight him for it.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 10, 2013)

I didn't see water being called, I don't care, I guess I will go with ground if it hasn't been called.

Yeah if we allowed 1 uber, Arcues normal would sweep.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 10, 2013)

Bioness said:


> You're right, for some reason I thought it was his dream world ability, scratch that then.
> 
> A problem I see is that so many of the Uber legendaries are Psychic or Dragon so that would unfairly give make certain Gyms/E4 better, unless you were to only allow 1 "Uber", which even that is bad because some of them could easily sweep an entire team.
> 
> ...



I agree, that the banlist should probably just contain ubers.

However I find it funny how you said 'Psychic or Dragon' when Latias and Latios are both types, and they're not uber.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 10, 2013)

When Latias and Latios contain soul dew they are uber.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 10, 2013)

That's true.


----------



## Death-kun (Oct 10, 2013)

Yeah, I called Water on the last page, assuming it wasn't already taken (which it wasn't). I've already got some good Water type teams set up. I'd just have to rework them to be utilized without Rain Dance/Drizzle, since I assume those are banned.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 10, 2013)

Why would rain dance and drizzel be banned? Drizzel is only banned if you are using a pokemon with swift swim.


----------



## Death-kun (Oct 10, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> Why would rain dance and drizzel be banned? Drizzel is only banned if you are using a pokemon with *swift swim*.



Hydration also abuses the rain. I guess it depends on what I want to do. I can keep the rain and choose different Pokemon that don't totally abuse the crap out of it, or I can keep the Pokemon and get rid of the rain.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 10, 2013)

I forget, is hydration banned in the rain? The biggest abuser is Vapereon IIRC.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 10, 2013)

Reading the link (which Bioness posted) on smogons ban list, I say we should simply use the previously listed rules. All of it looks fair and just, and I actually agree with everything listed.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 10, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> I forget, is hydration banned in the rain? The biggest abuser is Vapereon IIRC.



No, it's not.


----------



## Legend (Oct 11, 2013)

Do you need to download it, im on a ancient mac


----------



## Bioness (Oct 11, 2013)

Olivia said:


> Reading the link (which Bioness posted) on smogons ban list, I say we should simply use the previously listed rules. All of it looks fair and just, and I actually agree with everything listed.



I'll post it in full here since I doubt most people would click the link, it also answers the weather banned question. (Only rain+swift swim is banned)



> *Clauses and Banlists*
> 
> The tiering process of Smogon has come a long way from the simple days of RBY and many bans are now somewhat more complex than they were in previous generations. This page serves to document the precise definitions of all rules and lists the bans used in standard play. Below is the full list of every BW tier and its specific banlist.
> *Clause Definitions*
> ...


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 11, 2013)

Legend said:


> Do you need to download it, im on a ancient mac



No you don't have to download Pokemon Showdown, its browser based.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 11, 2013)

Immortal said:


> Fuck, mom beat me to it. I'd take psychic or electric if that's taken too lmfao.



If you still want it, you can take fire. I actually wouldn't mind taking Psychic since I just formed a pretty decent team.


----------



## Legend (Oct 11, 2013)

once again im so joining this


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 11, 2013)

I just had a thought: if we end up not getting enough numbers for a Pok?mon League + participating challengers, we could make an "NF Frontier". We'd only need like 5/6 Frontier Brains, having teams akin to Champions (i.e. no type restrictions), so that poses a challenge. If necessary we can incorporate different challenges for each Brain like there were in Pok?mon Emerald, or they can be regular 6v6 rules. Just throwing out a possible back-up plan


----------



## Olivia (Oct 11, 2013)

On the contrary, we have fourteen people willing to participate, which twelve is needed to fulfill the eight gyms and four elites. Of course the first challenger to pass through all of that will become the first champion.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 11, 2013)

Still got spots open?


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 11, 2013)

To keep in the flavor of a Pokemon, we should have spending point limit on what you can pick. This is to stop people only picking OU Pokemon since Gym Leaders and the E4/Champion always have some UU/RU pokemon. This means people that want to pick pokemon they like will have a chance

This will apply to all participants, the trainers, gym leaders, E4 and champion.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 11, 2013)

I did like the idea of 2 OU, 2 UU, and 2 RU, but maybe shift one OU to the RU or UU. 

Regardless, if my Psychic team ends up working out, I'm actually using a NU.


----------



## Saru (Oct 11, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> What Naruto said about banlists more of less sums up how I feel. Smogon tiers would be the easiest to work with. But no matter the tier, I think Legendaries should just stay out of it.
> 
> But everything is up for discussion. :33



yeah, I kind of liked the idea of no Legends for this as well. I mean, if the consensus is to use the Uber banlist then feliz navidad... vamos a ver...

I just want to briefly explain why I think the tiers should be limited to the constraints that Bioness posted in addition to Legendary Pok?mon. 

I just think that bringing in Latios, Latias, Terrakion, and Keldeo would be a bad idea for the first time doing this. Keldeo and Terrakion especially, considering how much the metagame tends to centralize around them. like, if we do allow these guys in, I'm not going to hesitate to use one of them because they're simply waaaaay more viable than, say, a Pok?mon straight out of the RU tier. already, the gap in power and viability is pretty steep with the range of RU to OU, and in order to make this experience as enjoyable as possible for all those participate, I think it would be best to exclude Legendary Pok?mon from registration. do understand that I know and respect that Smogon's tier list, but I think for the players involved and the sake of the Monotype gimmick, no Legendaries would be the best option.

also, another question I wish to pose to you all: *will the tournament be restricted to B2/W2 battle mechanics as well as Pok?mon? meaning no X/Y stuff at all?*

I have to get to bed now though; have to get up early tomorrow.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 11, 2013)

If Pokemon Showdown updates with the Pokemon X and Y mechanics and we can't change back then we will have to use it that way. We still won't be able to use any 6th Generation Pokemon however.

Though I would like to say that using legendaries is still being respectful to the type gimmick, in the stadium/coliseum games legendaries were used by the opponents. Even in the anime and manga you have random people with legendaries, a Nurse Joy even used a Latias to test out the Pewter City Gym.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 11, 2013)

Bioness said:


> If Pokemon Showdown updates with the Pokemon X and Y mechanics and we can't change back then we will have to use it that way. We still won't be able to use any 6th Generation Pokemon however.
> 
> Though I would like to say that using legendaries is still being respectful to the type gimmick, in the stadium/coliseum games legendaries were used by the opponents. Even in the anime and manga you have random people with legendaries, a Nurse Joy even used a Latias to test out the Pewter City Gym.



 I don't think we have to worry about Showdown scrapping 5th gen, they give you the option to play gen 4 and 1 available to play on.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 11, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> I don't think we have to worry about Showdown scrapping 5th gen, they give you the option to play gen 4 and 1 available to play on.



That solves that then  I usually only do the random battles (1600 rating ) on there which is why I may not be wholly familiar with other modes they have.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 11, 2013)

As far as the 'legendary' debacle, I think that any Pokemon that fall out of the 'Uber Category' should be allowed, but in case of legendaries, should be limited to one per team. (Of course Latios and Latias wouldn't be allowed to hold a Soul Dew) I think that would be a good way of limiting 'weaker' legendaries without outright banning them.

I was wondering, what should be the range for our Pokemon's level?


----------



## Bioness (Oct 11, 2013)

Level 100?

Having different levels would make no sense in this set up. In fact I'm not even sure having different levels is possible for what we are using.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 11, 2013)

In showdown you can set your pokemons level to anything IIRC., I don't see the point of limiting a pokemons level.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 11, 2013)

So you can, but I still think the Pokemon should all be the same level. The potential champion can fight the Gym Leaders in any order anyway.

Though I am curious what decides who is a Gym Leader and who is an Elite Four member?


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 11, 2013)

I'll stick to being a gym leader.

Also I am still against the idea of 1 loss and the trainer is out. Winning 12 battles in a row seems unlikely and a lot of gym leaders wouldn't get to see any action, let alone the Elite 4.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 11, 2013)

Perhaps a 5 day "retry" cooldown for facing a Gym Leader again, this would allow them to battle other ones while not being completely kicked out.

Would they battle the Elite Four all in a row though? So that would have to be planned.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 11, 2013)

Well the contestant wouldn't be able to battle anyone else, but I don't think they'd be forced to battle each member of the Elite Four in say, an hour. At most they'll post the team they'll use against the Elite Four here, and then battle all four when available.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 11, 2013)

Bioness said:


> Perhaps a 5 day "retry" cooldown for facing a Gym Leader again, this would allow them to battle other ones while not being completely kicked out.
> 
> Would they battle the Elite Four all in a row though? So that would have to be planned.



I guess the five day retry cool down sounds good. Something along the lines of, lose 3 times in a row and you are out.

I doubt they would be able to fight the entire elite 4 in a row, but there definitely should be a order to fight them in.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 11, 2013)

An order for the Elite Four would be too much, in Black and White as well as X and Y there was no order and it was better that way as it made them equal. And maybe not face them all in a row but within a certain time frame or something.


----------



## tgre (Oct 11, 2013)

This actually looks interesting as balls

I've never done this before but I'm very, very (almost unhealthily) familiar with the smogon tiers

I've read the OP and it looks like we're using Pokemon Showdown, a software I've used in the past.

Is there a requirement for gym leaders etc? Because I get the feeling any old dude can go: "HAHA I AM FIRE GYM LEADER, FEAR MY MACARGO LV100 LAWL. HAHA ITS A FIRESNAIL KENTS"


----------



## Naruto (Oct 11, 2013)

Hey guys, I just woke up. Skimmed the thread.

I'm seeing a clear problem with this contest so far: everyone wants to be a gym leader, nobody wants to actually run the gauntlet.

I should remind you guys that only the final, undisputed champion will get the best prize: permanent sparkles, permanent user title (Pok?mon Master in bold) and one day to upload a 150x200 avatar that will stay forever if you don't remove it.

Volunteers will most likely receive some sort of rep-based consolation prize, the amount to be determined later - something decent enough that you would appreciate it but not so high people from other sections would whine about it. I will see about doing a little something more, but no promises.



tGre teh Disleksik said:


> Is there a requirement for gym leaders etc? Because I get the feeling any old dude can go: "HAHA I AM FIRE GYM LEADER, FEAR MY MACARGO LV100 LAWL. HAHA ITS A FIRESNAIL KENTS"



I don't think we need requirements. Most people interested in joining will probably be reasonably competent, and even if one gym is easier than the others, that's not the end of the world. The game is kind of like that, too.



Xiammes said:


> I guess the five day retry cool down sounds good.



Like I said, whatever you guys end up deciding on, I will go with. But in my opinion, retries are a bad idea. It will keep this running indefinitely.



> A problem I see is that so many of the Uber legendaries are Psychic or Dragon so that would unfairly give make certain Gyms/E4 better



That is not a problem. The original premise is that things are not fair for gyms/e4. They are meant to cull the weak along the way, not win.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 11, 2013)

Olivia said:


> On the contrary, we have fourteen people willing to participate, which twelve is needed to fulfill the eight gyms and four elites. Of course the first challenger to pass through all of that will become the first champion.



It was just a thought; I actually hadn't counted again for a while, but that's promising that we've got more volunteers than actual spots required after ~half a day.



Naruto said:


> Hey guys, I just woke up. Skimmed the thread.
> 
> I'm seeing a clear problem with this contest so far: everyone wants to be a gym leader, nobody wants to actually run the gauntlet.



Well, we've got more volunteers and people interested than actual spots for the Pok?mon League portion of the competition. Whenever the roster is decided upon, hopefully those who weren't able to be a Leader/E4 will still try it out. I know I, for instance, wouldn't object to either a leader position or contestant position.

We also still have all of today, which will probably a more high traffic day on the sub-forum, with the release fast approaching.



> [...]
> 
> Like I said, whatever you guys end up deciding on, I will go with. But in my opinion, retries are a bad idea. It will keep this running indefinitely.



Maybe have a date when the competition closes? Like one month (or however long) after the first Champion is crowned?



> That is not a problem. The original premise is that things are not fair for gyms/e4. They are meant to cull the weak along the way, not win.



For the purposes of this competition, I think that the GL/E4 should pose a legitimate challenge to aspiring Champions. In-game it's whatever because it's used as a point in plot progression--so you _must_ beat them at least once; twice I think in FR/LG--but for this, it's for fun and to allow us to play the game we love in a new way, but (hopefully) many people will be aspiring to win, and it shouldn't be as easy as in-game. The biggest problem will be finding a happy medium between hard matches present when you get into Smogon Ladder climbs and the battles one can expect in-game, so that it's still fun and interesting for any type of player.


----------



## Naruto (Oct 11, 2013)

BiNexus said:


> Maybe have a date when the competition closes? Like one month (or however long) after the first Champion is crowned?



This is definitely not a good idea, because the contest will run on the availability of the leaders and the coordinators who have to witness every match. So if retries are available then it should not be time based, they should be flat second chances.

The more I look at this the more I think we should just run a regular tournament.


----------



## Blur (Oct 11, 2013)

My knowledge on Pokemon is really limited. 

Can I still participate? :33


----------



## Tsunami (Oct 11, 2013)

It seems there is a lot of people willing to volunteer so I'll just be a contestant to make things easier.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 11, 2013)

Naruto said:


> This is definitely not a good idea, because the contest will run on the availability of the leaders and the coordinators who have to witness every match. So if retries are available then it should not be time based, they should be flat second chances.
> 
> The more I look at this the more I think we should just run a regular tournament.



I don't think we need witnesses for the matches, smogon saves our battle data, we can simply post the match data here for other people to watch.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 11, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> I don't think we need witnesses for the matches, smogon saves our battle data, we can simply post the match data here for other people to watch.



I think we would need to have 1/2 referees at least to watch everything unfold. Simply releasing it after the fact, one may miss something.

Plus, it's fun watching other battles simply as a spectator.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 11, 2013)

I really don't see the point, if we follow smogon rules, they will be enforced a referee is not needed.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 11, 2013)

Naruto said:


> This is definitely not a good idea, because the contest will run on the availability of the leaders and the coordinators who have to witness every match. So if retries are available then it should not be time based, they should be flat second chances.
> 
> The more I look at this the more I think we should just run a regular tournament.



I would be fine with a tournament if we decide to go that route. Would we keep the same team throughout though?


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 11, 2013)

Thinking on it, I think a tournament would be far easier to run, but may also discourage people who are less in the know about competitive battling. I'm fine with whatever is decided, though.


----------



## Naruto (Oct 11, 2013)

It's whatever you guys end up deciding on, just as long as the majority is happy.

We can always poll it.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 11, 2013)

I like the idea with gym leaders, unless we do something creative with the tournament, I'm not really feeling a standard OU tourney.


----------



## Blur (Oct 11, 2013)

Anyway, I want to run the gauntlet, water pokemon.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 11, 2013)

Naruto said:


> It's whatever you guys end up deciding on, just as long as the majority is happy.
> 
> We can always *poll it*.



I think that'd probably be for the best.


----------



## Saru (Oct 11, 2013)

Naruto said:


> This is definitely not a good idea, because the contest will run on the availability of the leaders and the coordinators who have to witness every match. So if retries are available then it should not be time based, they should be flat second chances.
> 
> The more I look at this the more I think we should just run a regular tournament.



personally, I'd like the idea of one rematch at the most. 

it's a nice compromise between the rigor of a standard tourney and a competitive yet casual match between players. and then, some people are probably going to battling competitively for the first time, so I feel like a "one and done" rule would be somewhat discouraging (like BiNexus said).

I like the idea of a poll both before and after the tournament (for feedback) so that most everyone can get what they want out of this.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 11, 2013)

Naruto said:


> It's whatever you guys end up deciding on, just as long as the majority is happy.
> 
> We can always poll it.



A basic tournament doesn't sound as fun as a Naruto Forum's Pokemon League 

And as others have said I'm sure interest in actually facing the Gym Leaders/Elite Four will explode once we actually have them all set up.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 12, 2013)

Why haven't we made a list of volunteers yet? That would help speed things along.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 12, 2013)

I could compile a list of interest if no one else is willing to, since I have some free time at the moment.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 12, 2013)

Yeah I am still available, I'm busy at work atm. Make a list of people who wanted to volunteer, then vm them if you can.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 12, 2013)

This is the list of interested people so far. I also decided to add what element they voiced they would prefer. However, I highlighted in red elements that conflict with another already listed element. With this we have fourteen. 
*
Interest in being a Gym Leader/Elite Four:

* [Steel]
[Ice]
 [Poison]

 [Preferred Water]
 [Preferred Fire]

 [Psychic]
[Ice]


 [Flying]

 [Preferred Ground]


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 12, 2013)

We have 14 volunteers, but only 12 spots how do we settle this? Go by who ever asked first or who has the most free time, or do it by time zone?


----------



## Olivia (Oct 12, 2013)

Well let's first see if everyone is interested, then we'll move from there.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 12, 2013)

I'm holding off on having an actual list until we do this poll. I'd rather not get volunteers committed to something that could end up being very different from the original pitch. That's why there is no sign-ups yet. This thread is primarily to get feedback/suggestions and see what everyone wants from this tournament/how long it will be/how we'll work out time zone differences/etc... 

But the primary thing we need to know before I'd feel comfortable putting up sign-ups is the structure. Do you guys want a league style tournament, or do you guys want a standard tournament?


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 12, 2013)

I want league style, a standard will be boring as hell and would lose momentum quickly, considering the new games are out.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 12, 2013)

I personally agree, the league format is what caught my interest after all. It's different from the normal tournament, but familiar to the Pokemon universe.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 12, 2013)

Let Bioness take my spot


----------



## SinRaven (Oct 12, 2013)

The league format is indeed what caught my attention as well. I'm simply not good enough to be a normal contestant anyway, so in a standard tournament I (and probably some others too) will refrain from joining.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 12, 2013)

I agree with Bioness, in a league format, even casual pokemon plays can participate, its why I am against the 1 loss and your out idea. Though we can't allow people to have as many retries as they want.


----------



## Naruto (Oct 12, 2013)

The problem with the league format is a lot of people simply won't be eligible for the coolest prize. I flat out can't hand twelve of those prizes.

...but I just had an excellent idea.

The gym leader/elite four who eliminates the most contestants will also get a prize. Does that sound fair? I think I can persuade an admin to do 3 big prizes instead of 1.

Anyway, poll is up.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 12, 2013)

I just assumed that if people sign up for gym leader spots they knowingly wouldn't get a prize. 

But your suggestion does sound good as well.


----------



## Tsunami (Oct 12, 2013)

A tournament would be much easier to do


----------



## SinRaven (Oct 12, 2013)

I wouldnt neccesarily want a prize as a gym leader, that's why it's Valle a voluntary job in the OP anyway, but this suggestion sounds fine.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 12, 2013)

Naruto said:


> The problem with the league format is a lot of people simply won't be eligible for the coolest prize. I flat out can't hand twelve of those prizes.
> 
> ...but I just had an excellent idea.
> 
> ...



Is there a cut off date for this? It does sounds fair yeah. It could favor whatever gym leader/elite four member is the most active as well.

I'm still curious how we would set this up, there seems like it would require a bit of work.


----------



## Naruto (Oct 12, 2013)

I just want to give everyone a shot at something cool.

Cut off date? For like, the prize? I don't know. It's whatever the admins are cool with. I understand I can't promise the world because then other sections would be sad.



Bioness said:


> It could favor whatever gym leader/elite four member is the most active as well.



Nah, to have a shot at the champion you need to go through every gym leader once, right?



Bioness said:


> I'm still curious how we would set this up, there seems like it would require a bit of work.



Seems like it, yeah. I think I probably jumped the gun a bit. Perhaps we should make a new thread for sign-ups and then based on how many people we get, decide on what to do and how to do it.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 12, 2013)

Naruto said:


> I]Nah, to have a shot at the champion you need to go through every gym leader once, right?



Because there is no order though, whatever Gym Leader/Elite Four eliminates the most would likely also be the person to face the most people. Not saying it as a bad thing.



> Seems like it, yeah. I think I probably jumped the gun a bit. Perhaps we should make a new thread for sign-ups and then based on how many people we get, decide on what to do and how to do it.



If there is a surplus of volunteers, how would we narrow it down? We could also use a few back up volunteers incase real life happens.

I also think a guide for what to do on Showdown would be helpful, because communication through there is a bit hit or miss as there isn't a friend or group system we could use. There are multiple chat rooms but they are all public.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 12, 2013)

Naruto said:


> The problem with the league format is a lot of people simply won't be eligible for the coolest prize. I flat out can't hand twelve of those prizes.
> 
> ...but I just had an excellent idea.
> 
> ...



Sounds like a plan. May have to have separate kill counters for Gyms and the Elite Four. 



Bioness said:


> Because there is no order though, whatever Gym Leader/Elite Four eliminates the most would likely also be the person to face the most people. Not saying it as a bad thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When we put up sign-ups for gyms, it'll probably be on a first come first serve basis. Considering we've already had people volunteer in this thread, I think it'd be fair that those sign-ups count. For people that volunteer after we've reached our limit, we could have understudy gym leaders. Like if the primary gym leader is busy/sleeping at the time a challenger wants to face them, we could have the understudy face them instead. 

A big problem I can think of with that is prizes. If we're gonna go with kill counters, what happens if a gym that has an understudy wins the prize? Would they split it? 

Then there's the issue of player count. As Naruto has said, majority in this thread are interested in being gym leaders/elite four. If we add reserve positions to those spots, then that just further thins the number of potential challengers we could have. An alternative option to the reserve plan would be to just say, "Sorry, we're full up." As much of a dick as that'd make me feel like, it would keep prize allocation simple.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 12, 2013)

I guess another other way of doing it would be just take all the volunteers we've got now, close further sign-ups for gyms, and then only require trainers to need 8 gym badges, so they can pick their own poison when it comes to who they want to face.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 12, 2013)

I don't think an understudy Gym Leader would work too well, we already know the Gym Leaders can't be online all the time (just like the games hoho), so there really isn't a point to it as long as the volunteers can be on within whatever time period.

I was thinking that maybe having a few extra gym leaders would be good, but then it kinda defeats the purpose of the league if you can just pick and choose.

I'm thinking of changing from *Ice* to *Normal* , also surprised no one has claimed *Dragon* yet (or is that a bit cheap).


----------



## SinRaven (Oct 12, 2013)

There might be some people who volunteered as gym leader who actually want to play the tournament as well.

Why not send out a pm to all people who showed interest in being one and asking for their confirmation? Also ask if they might be interested in playing the tournament instead of just being a gym leader, because I think the people who don't want to play the tournament and just want to volunteer (like I, yes) should have priority.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 12, 2013)

Bioness said:


> I don't think an understudy Gym Leader would work too well, we already know the Gym Leaders can't be online all the time (just like the games hoho), so there really isn't a point to it as long as the volunteers can be on within whatever time period.
> 
> I was thinking that maybe having a few extra gym leaders would be good, but then it kinda defeats the purpose of the league if you can just pick and choose.
> 
> I'm thinking of changing from *Ice* to *Normal* , also surprised no one has claimed *Dragon* yet (or is that a bit cheap).



Keep in mind, there's 14 people on Olivia's list of people interested. 4 of those will be the Elite Four (who will have to be the people with the most flexible schedules), so we're down to 10. That'd leave only 2 extra gyms to choose from. Having that slight amount of picking and choosing could help avoid situations where the gym and challenger are on two different sides of the world. It does undermine the traditional league format, but that format was made for NPC's who have no schedules. 



Space said:


> There might be some people who volunteered as gym leader who actually want to play the tournament as well.
> 
> Why not send out a pm to all people who showed interest in being one and asking for their confirmation? Also ask if they might be interested in playing the tournament instead of just being a gym leader, because I think the people who don't want to play the tournament and just want to volunteer (like I, yes) should have priority.



I'll send one out a bit later. :33


----------



## Bioness (Oct 12, 2013)

You're right, but even that could work because I think in the actual Pokemon Leagues there are usually a bunch of extra gym leaders we don't see.

What determines if they are an Elite Four or Gym Leader, because I'm guessing you can only face the Elite Four after beating all the Gym Leaders.



omg laser pew pew! said:


> Let Bioness take my spot



I actually missed your post before, if you want you can still be Ice, I'll be Normal.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 12, 2013)

Any volunteer can become part of the Elite Four if they want. But it's preferable that whoever signs up for that has little else on their plate right now. They'll have slightly more freedom than gym leaders regarding their type requirements. Will have to run some test matches to get the right numbers on those. 

And yeah, current plan is that the Elite Four can only be faced after the gym leaders.


----------



## Naruto (Oct 12, 2013)

Well, I was frankly hoping you guys would iron out the details of the tournament because I am kinda busy with real life and dying to play the new pokemon game as it is.

Patchouli came to me with the idea and it seemed great, but if you can go through the process largely by yourselves, that would be for the best. You don't need to ask me every time you make a decision. I'd say if you want to defer to anyone, it should be Patchouli and whoever else he/she decides to put in charge.

Basically holler if you need my help (stick a thread, add polls, hand out prizes) but organize this on your end as much as possible.

If nobody around here is at all familiar with pokemon showdown, I guess I could help.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 12, 2013)

Good luck with whatever you've got going on. Don't worry, we've got this.


----------



## tgre (Oct 12, 2013)

Tbh I'm more than happy to either volunteer as a gymleader and/or run the gauntlet

Just to be clear do the same six pokemon get used for every gym or are you allowed to tailor your team for each fight?

The true definition of the gauntlet implies that you'll be buttfucked by everyone while you have the same team


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 12, 2013)

That one is up to you guys. 

There was some talk a page or two back about a reserve pool that you could swap out from. Could be one way to find some balance between using the same party the entire time, and being free to change up teams for each fight. 

Could have it so that challengers are allowed to swap out 2 pokemon every fight. With the exception of a Champion fight, where both the Champion and Challenger could swap out their entire parties with anything in their reserve. I think that'd be a relatively okay way of doing that.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 12, 2013)

Well for Elite 4/Champion I would think they would have to keep the same pokemon, as it's like that in the game.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 12, 2013)

/had this page open for the last 10 minutes and didn't see the new posts.

Not sure how easy it is to do this on Smogon, but if they could have maybe 2 Pokemon on reserve that they can switch in depending on who they fight, that might make the gauntlet more manageable. This was discussed a few pages back but no solid conclusion was made.



Olivia said:


> Well for Elite 4/Champion I would think they would have to keep the same pokemon, as it's like that in the game.



In the games where you rematch them their Pokemon change.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 12, 2013)

Olivia said:


> Well for Elite 4/Champion I would think they would have to keep the same pokemon, as it's like that in the game.



We could do that easily with the Elite Four, I like the idea of the gauntlet with them. But the Champion would need some work. 

If we had it so the Champion could switch out Pokemon after they become Champion, they could just tailor their team to be effective against potential challengers, who would be locked into their teams due to the Elite Four. But on the other hand, if we had it so the Champion couldn't switch out, challengers could switch out with their reserves to tailor their team for the Champion fight, making things a bit unfair for the first champion.

If they're both allowed to switch out prior to the fight, it evens things out a bit. 



Bioness said:


> /had this page open for the last 10 minutes and didn't see the new posts.
> 
> Not sure how easy it is to do this on Smogon, but if they could have maybe 2 Pokemon on reserve that they can switch in depending on who they fight, that might make the gauntlet more manageable. This was discussed a few pages back but no solid conclusion was made.
> 
> ...



I think we'll be going with the reserve idea. As for specific numbers on that, we'll see. Need to run this gauntlet myself to see how it all pans out.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 12, 2013)

We're also in need of a name for the imaginary region this will take place in. :33


----------



## Bioness (Oct 12, 2013)

The Region of Nardo.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 12, 2013)

We also need some nifty badges.

The challengers should be allowed to pick 12 pokemon through out the tiers, and they are allowed to switch out 2 pokemon after each battle. Once they become they become champion, they are allowed to switch 3 pokemon after each battle.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 12, 2013)

Naruto said:


> If nobody around here is at all familiar with pokemon showdown, I guess I could help.



Our own little corner on pokemon showdown would be nice.
But I suppose we can just use one of the barely used servers for this.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 12, 2013)

I'll beat you all


----------



## Bioness (Oct 12, 2013)

Is there a way to make your own room? Everyone here should also make their accounts on there, it is really easy.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 12, 2013)

Yeah you can create your own room, it will be private though. You need to pm a admin to set up moderators.


----------



## Stunna (Oct 12, 2013)

I'll run the gauntlet. My Poliwrath will rape face.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 12, 2013)

Stunna said:


> I'll run the gauntlet. My Poliwrath will rape face.



Poliwhirl>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Poliwrath


----------



## Stunna (Oct 12, 2013)

I've actually always switched between the two when it comes to my favorite.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 13, 2013)




----------



## KevKev (Oct 13, 2013)

I want in this!


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 13, 2013)

Stunna said:


> I've actually always switched between the two when it comes to my favorite.



ur right all 3 forms are awesome


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 13, 2013)

anyone up for a few random battles with me?


----------



## KevKev (Oct 13, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> anyone up for a few random battles with me?



Let's go. 

username: kevkev28


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 13, 2013)

Ima enjoy this


----------



## KevKev (Oct 13, 2013)

> Ho-oh as last pokemon


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 13, 2013)

you know it, it'll be magikarp next


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 13, 2013)

Seel > Feraligator

That Mankey was so fucking weird, Bulk Up, Hail, Icicle shard, Focus punch .


----------



## Bioness (Oct 13, 2013)

So when making my team for the Normal Gym I realize there are a lot more regulations than what is layed out, like a Togekiss with Serene Grace can't have both Air Slash and Body Slam, interesting.

My Username on Showdown is Bioness by the way.

Edit: Just tested out my Normal team in Monotype OU, I think we're good.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 13, 2013)

Finally got around to making a logo. 



...It's the best I've got.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 13, 2013)

That looks pretty cool, if we ever get the badges designed, we can put them the white area.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 13, 2013)

I'll probably design some badges if given the gym types and time.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 13, 2013)

Sounds good. :33


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 13, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> Seel > Feraligator
> 
> That Mankey was so fucking weird, Bulk Up, Hail, Icicle shard, Focus punch .



They really buffed some of those buff moves 
If you flinched you'd would have lost


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 13, 2013)

20% chance to lose, I liked my odds.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 13, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> 20% chance to lose, I liked my odds.



[YOUTUBE]V1j7lyRnxVE[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 13, 2013)

My username is FruitBuyer on Pokemon Showdown, I'll be the Ice gym-leader/E4 member. Cheers Bioness

UPDATE: Thinking about who should be a gym leader, E4 and champion, we really should do something to differentiate between them. Let's be honest, not everyone here is a competitive player so people like myself who has played a fair bit on Smogon will have an advantage over someone that only plays the story. We need something to keep the flavor of this intact, the Champion should be one of the best players here, E4 is of a comparable skill-level with gym leaders before that. How would we do that? A mini-tourney to settle that?

SECOND UPDATE: I'm liking my ice team. I may need to sort out a couple moves and maybe switch out a pokemon or two but I've got the core down nicely. Well as nice as a mono-typed Ice team can go


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 13, 2013)

I should make my team pronto. I like the idea of a little tourney to decide who could better fit into the role of E4 or Gym Leader.

Patchouli--You talked about the possibility of the E4 having some Pok?mon not of their type, and I think that's a great idea, provided we have some restrictions. Maybe something like max of two Pok?mon, and some other sort of restriction so it doesn't get out of hand? Like, for instance, we can't have a Fire type E4 member have an Empoleon, or something. And great job on the logo! It looks good.


----------



## Naruto (Oct 13, 2013)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> UPDATE: Thinking about who should be a gym leader, E4 *and champion*



The champion is whoever beats the gym leaders and e4 first, and will rotate as they get eliminated by subsequent contestants.

Unless you guys have a better idea.


----------



## Death-kun (Oct 13, 2013)

So we are doing Pokemon Showdown instead of Pokemon Online? I'll need to make an account.

Sorry I haven't been here for a few days. Took a trip and Pokemon X and all that jazz. I read through some of the ironing out of details in here.


----------



## Chaos (Oct 13, 2013)

My Showdown account name is ChaosWeaver.

I'm loving this random battle mode. Current rating is 1615, made acc yesterday.


----------



## SinRaven (Oct 13, 2013)

I prepared my team for my Flying Gym (I definitely want to be a Gym Leader instead of a Elite Four member, since I lack the skill for the latter), but before I go any further I definitely need to know the restrictions and stuff (like how many OU Pok?mon are allowed).


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 13, 2013)

Yeah the overwhelming opinion is that the league style is the way to go. We should probably start working on restriction, then we will almost be ready to start.


----------



## Saru (Oct 13, 2013)

Just wanted to clarify that I wanted to be a challenger, not a Gym Leader/Elite Four Member. I apologize if my post was confusing. 

Also, I think that challengers should only get 2 rematches for the Gyms. I'm thinking that the Elite Four would be more difficult to decide upon... But we can cross that bridge when we get to it, I guess.

Is there anyway that a poll can be created with some of the options for the number rematches after some time has passed for people to vote on the current poll?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 13, 2013)

League rules states the challenger can try however many times he likes.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 13, 2013)

The retry count is entirely dependent on volunteers. If you guys have the free time, we can have multiple retries. Unlimited retries are not happening though, this league needs to end at some point after we start it. Keep in mind, it is still a competition with a permanent prize. For that kind of prize, there needs to be some level of difficulty.

Requested a poll be added for the number of retries.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 13, 2013)

How about 1 retry for each Gym? That way they can challenge each Gym at least once before being kicked out.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 13, 2013)

Get ready for a TLDR rough draft of the entire format. (Everything on it will be votable. Will set up some polls on a different site (so Naruto doesn't need to set up multiple polls over the course of a few days) and then send a mass pm to everyone in the thread. Then we'll go with the majority choices from there.)



Xiammes said:


> How about 1 retry for each Gym? That way they can challenge each Gym at least once before being kicked out.



That could work.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 13, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> How about 1 retry for each Gym? That way they can challenge each Gym at least once before being kicked out.



[YOUTUBE]0W8f3A_VvgQ[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Death-kun (Oct 13, 2013)

In other news, I might not volunteer after all. It's not that I don't want to, I'm just not sure if I'm willing to put forward the effort and actually go through with it to the very end. I'd rather not participate at all than be the kind of guy that quits halfway through and screws things up for everyone else.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 13, 2013)

*NF League Proposal*


*Spoiler*: _Challenger/Reserves_ 



Challengers will choose 9 Pokemon that they'll be able to use over the course of the league. There's no permadeath on Pokemon, the additional Pokemon are meant to act as reserves to be switched out from between matches. A Trainer may switch out 2 Pokemon in between each match.

Once the Trainer obtains 8 gym badges, they'll move onto the Elite Four. Once they challenge the First member of the Elite Four, Trainers will no longer be able to switch out Pokemon for the duration of the matches. 

Upon reaching the Champion, both the Challenger and Champion will be allowed to switch up to 2 Pokemon prior to their match.

Pokemon outside of the Challenger's reserve pool may not be switched in.





*Spoiler*: _Gym Leaders_ 



Gym leaders have no reserve pool, and instead use the same team through the duration of the league. Gyms are based on element types, so 5/6 of the Leader's Pokemon must be of the same type as the Gym they host. The Gym leader that defeats the most trainers will receive a prize.

Gym leaders may be challenged in any order.





*Spoiler*: _Elite Four_ 



The Elite Four have no reserve pool, and instead use the same team through the duration of the league. The Elite Four are element based as well, 5/6 of the Elite Four's Pokemon must be of the same type. The Elite Four that defeats the most trainers will receive a prize.





*Spoiler*: _Retries_ 



Challengers will be given one chance at a retry per gym. If the Challenger is defeated by the same gym twice, they will be disqualified. Once the Challenger reaches the Elite Four, there will be no retries. Any loss against the Elite Four will result in disqualification. This same rule applies to Champion fights. If a Challenger is defeated by a Champion, they are disqualified. 

The exception to this rule is if the Gym/Elite Four/or Champion voluntarily request a rematch. They may only do this once per Challenger.

The Elite Four may be challenged in any order, but only after a Challenger has obtained 8 gym badges.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 13, 2013)

I'm okay with those rules, what the suggested team structure? No restrictions besides ubers or the 2 OU, 2 UU, 2 RU or 3 OU and 3 UU.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 13, 2013)

3 OU and 3 UU. No Ubers, no Legendaries. Gen 1-5 only, regardless of what Pokemon Showdown does with Gen 6 stuff. For reserves, they could all be OU if the trainer wants, but they can only have 3 on their team at a time. 

Rule would apply to both Challengers and Volunteers.

I think that should work.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 13, 2013)

I am happy with that. I finished my team.


----------



## Saru (Oct 13, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> *NF League Proposal*
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Challenger/Reserves_
> ...



I really like that. however, I would also mention that challengers can go about obtaining badges in any order that they please; so long as they have eight, they will qualify for access to the Elite Four. that ensures that no gym leader will have an advantage over the others at getting a prize.

in addition, I love the idea for retries, but I have a few questions:

can the Elite Four be approached in any order (similar to the Gyms)?

if the challenger is lucky enough to receive an invitation to a rematch from an E4 mem, does he/she get to start the Elite Four challenge all over again? or is it just that one match? does winning the rematch allow the challenger to move on?

*ex:* Trainer Gary defeated the first member of the Elite Four but lost to the second. The second member of the Elite Four extended his/her hand to Gary for a rematch, but the first member of the Elite Four did not. 

is the first E4 mem then obligated to extend their hand in rematch to Gary, or is Gary disqualified because the first E4 mem did not extend their hand to him?

does the winning the rematch allow Gary to move on with the challenge?


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 13, 2013)

Saru said:


> I really like that. however, I would also mention that challengers can go about obtaining badges in any order that they please; so long as they have eight, they will qualify for access to the Elite Four. that ensures that no gym leader will have an advantage over the others at getting a prize.



Forgot to mention that. Yeah, gyms will be approachable in any order. Mainly due to scheduling issues, but I guess it helps also keeps one gym from having more chances due to order.



> in addition, I love the idea for retries, but I have a few questions:
> 
> can the Elite Four be approached in any order (similar to the Gums)?



They can, also due to schedules. 



> if the challenger is lucky enough to receive an invitation to a rematch from an E4 mem, does he/she get to start the Elite Four challenge all over again? or is it just that one match? does winning the rematch allow the challenger to move on?
> 
> *ex:* Trainer Gary defeated the first member of the Elite Four but lost to the second. The second member of the Elite Four extended his/her hand to Gary for a rematch, but the first member of the Elite Four did not.
> 
> is the first E4 mem then obligated to extend their hand in rematch to Gary, or is Gary disqualified because the first E4 mem did not extend their hand to him?



A rematch from the Elite Four means they have to face the entire Elite Four again. All members of the Elite Four need to allow the rematches. If an Elite Four member has a strong objection to the rematch for one reason or another, or just doesn't have the time, it's considered a forfeit and the challenger wins that match.



> does the winning the rematch allow Gary to move on with the challenge?



It does.


----------



## SinRaven (Oct 13, 2013)

No objections at all. I'll work on my Flying Gym Team as soon as possible.


----------



## Saru (Oct 13, 2013)

that makes things perfectly clear. thanks. 

I'm on board with the rules.


----------



## Chaos (Oct 13, 2013)

No objections.

So, I'm a gym leader?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 13, 2013)

Gyms as said before allow unlimited retries even in the anime I'm thinking 2 retries.
I wouldn't mind mock matches being allowed outside of the tourney if you decide 1 is fine.

The elite 4 allows retries in the game and the anime once you qualify to fight them again by getting enough badges, 1 retry should be given at least since it's a gauntlet of 4 trainers in a row you have to win against opposed to one; under the condition of beating all of the gym leaders over again with no losses.

No complaints on champion.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 13, 2013)

Chaos said:


> No objections.
> 
> So, I'm a gym leader?



If you want to be. :33

Going by Olivia's interest list (and accounting for Death-kun), this is all the volunteers. 



> Interest in being a Gym Leader/Elite Four:
> 
> BiNexus [Steel]
> Bioness [Ice]
> ...



That leaves us with 12 volunteers. 8 will be gyms, 4 will be Elite Four. 

I'll pm all the people on this list and see if they want to verify their interest. If we need some more after that, then I'll open up sign-ups in this thread. 



Death-kun said:


> In other news, I might not volunteer after all. It's not that I don't want to, I'm just not sure if I'm willing to put forward the effort and actually go through with it to the very end. I'd rather not participate at all than be the kind of guy that quits halfway through and screws things up for everyone else.



It's okay.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 13, 2013)

Actually Saru said he wanted to compete IIRC, so we have exactly 8 gym leaders in 4 elite 4.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 13, 2013)

Of course we could up the stakes on Champion by allowing rematches under a condition.
The condition being you give the Champion half of your rep if you lose again


----------



## Tsunami (Oct 13, 2013)

Good good then. What does OO, UU, and Uber mean?


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 13, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Gyms as said before allow unlimited retries even in the anime I'm thinking 2 retries.
> I wouldn't mind mock matches being allowed outside of the tourney if you decide 1 is fine.
> 
> The elite 4 allows retries in the game and the anime once you qualify to fight them again by getting enough badges, 1 retry should be given at least since it's a gauntlet of 4 trainers in a row you have to win against opposed to one; under the condition of beating all of the gym leaders over again with no losses.
> ...



Keep in mind, that's a system made for people that aren't real that have unlimited amounts of time on their hands. I'm trying to account for how long this will take. But that said, the retry count is based on how much time you guys are willing to spend volunteering.

*Poll here about retries*


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 13, 2013)

Tsunami said:


> Good good then. What does OO, UU, and Uber mean?



Over used and Under used, basically tiers to tell how useful pokemon are. Ubers are banned pokemon, too strong for normal competitive play, OU is the best pokemon in the game and UU are strong pokemon but don't have a common place in OU.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 13, 2013)

To be fair the system has a flaw since it doesn't expect OO,UU, etc. vs OU matchups or anything like that. Often resulting in the metagame screwing itself over.
I wouldn't recommend copying smogon if you really want this to be fun.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 13, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> *NF League Proposal*
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Challenger/Reserves_
> ...



This looks like a good start. I'm sure we can make some changes as we progress 



Patchouli said:


> 3 OU and 3 UU. No Ubers, no Legendaries. Gen 1-5 only, regardless of what Pokemon Showdown does with Gen 6 stuff. For reserves, they could all be OU if the trainer wants, but they can only have 3 on their team at a time.
> 
> Rule would apply to both Challengers and Volunteers.
> 
> I think that should work.



Not sure how I feel about this. While I agree with a restriction on OU and Ubers, I don't like the no Legendaries-rule. I think there should be a limit since my typing, ice, will be quite disadvantaged if I can't use the legendaries.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 13, 2013)

Got another survey up for tiers and legendaries.



Here's the actual tiers themselves so you can see which pokemon are on which list.



:33


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 13, 2013)

magikarp mock battles, reading my mind 
Just pick your favorite pokemon, it's what all the gym leaders and elite 4 members do.
Challenger should do the same.
I'd still ban legendarys and Ubers however.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 13, 2013)

To clarify on the 3 OU and 3 UU thing, that's a limit, not a requirement. You could have a team of entirely Magikarps if you wanted under that rule.


----------



## Tsunami (Oct 13, 2013)

Okay, cool.


----------



## Saru (Oct 13, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> Actually Saru said he wanted to compete IIRC, so we have exactly 8 gym leaders in 4 elite 4.



yeah, I want to be a challenger, not part of the challenge itself. 



Patchouli said:


> *Poll here about retries*



perhaps a new thread would be best. I know you can PM/VM all the people who have voiced their interest already, but for those who haven't spoken up yet, a new thread would give them more of a chance to weigh in. 

I also don't like the fact that the poll is being hosted on a website that anyone can access (I presume). I hope we don't have any malevolent guests lurking around.  

meh.

also, dat post count is too 1337.


----------



## Death-kun (Oct 13, 2013)

I believe that legendaries should be able to be used if they're not in the Ubers tier. Quite a number of legendaries are also in OU and UU. 



Patchouli said:


> It's okay.



Keep in mind that I do find it interesting. But how do prizes work, exactly? I've seen some conflicting/updated info. 

However, if you guys have the perfect amount of volunteers excluding me, then just disregard me lol.


----------



## Saru (Oct 13, 2013)

also, will the types of each Gym and E4 member (meaning with the exclusion of the Champion) be known long beforehand? like, before the tournament starts?

or will that info be uncovered as the tournament unfolds? 

the latter sounds like it has the ability to produce some sparks of excitement for a bit. at least until someone ascends all the way the to the E4 and the cat is let out of the bag.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 13, 2013)

You're supposed to know the gym leader's type beforehand from their gym.
Heck even walking in you find out right away.
Elite 4 is hidden until you get to them.
Just another challenger.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 13, 2013)

The types of both Gym and the Elite Four will be known before Trainers pick their teams. As for the actual Pokemon on those teams, that will remain private unless the Gym Leader/E4 voluntarily tell everyone what they're using.

Unless you guys would prefer that the Elite Four's types remain hidden until they get there. We could go with that.


----------



## Saru (Oct 13, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> You're supposed to know the gym leader's type beforehand from their gym.
> Heck even walking in you find out right away.
> Elite 4 is hidden until you get to them.
> Just another challenger.



yeah the greater mysteriousness of the Elite Four is what prompted me to ask



Patchouli said:


> The types of both Gym and the Elite Four will be known before Trainers pick their teams. As for the actual Pokemon on those teams, that will remain private unless the Gym Leader/E4 voluntarily tell everyone what they're using.
> 
> Unless you guys would prefer that the Elite Four's types remain hidden until they get there. We could go with that.



sounds good to me

I'd actually like it if the E4's types were hidden (until the first challenger approached), personally


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 13, 2013)

Sure, we could make that private then.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 13, 2013)

Sorry I've been away the entire day. 

Regarding the who is the Gym Leader/Elite Four, someone before said the more experienced players should be Elite Four members and that we should set up a tournament so we can try and balance it. I think this is a good idea, though I would prefer to be a Gym Leader, I do then to go overboard with the Pokemon teams.




Patchouli said:


> To clarify on the 3 OU and 3 UU thing, that's a limit, not a requirement. You could have a team of entirely Magikarps if you wanted under that rule.



They's fine because none on my team are Overused (though a few are Borderline).

Does this apply to the challengers as well?


----------



## Saru (Oct 13, 2013)

also, I think that using Legendaries that fall within the limits of Standard play (OU and below) should maybe be allowed considering what *pew pew* said. but I just feel so bad about doing that when there are people who have never even played competitively before entering, let alone people who have experience countering shit like Kyurem-B.

it's up to you guys, I guess. once again, a poll would be a good idea, but I don't want to get poll crazy or overwhelm Patchouli/Naruto or the voters with polling.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 13, 2013)

Saru said:


> also, I think that using Legendaries that fall within the limits of Standard play (OU and below) should maybe be allowed considering what *pew pew* said. but I just feel so bad about doing that when there are people who have never even played competitively before entering, let alone people who have experience countering shit like Kyurem-B.
> 
> it's up to you guys, I guess. once again, a poll would be a good idea, but I don't want to get poll crazy or overwhelm Patchouli/Naruto or the voters with polling.



I really want to see the thread for deciding that fucking Kyurem-B shouldn't be put into Ubers, because he is a nightmare when he randomly pops up in Overused.



> Despite having stats worthy of Ubers residency, Kyurem-B was determined by suspect test voters to be simply OU, falling just short of its White counterpart. It all comes down to a few reasons: average Speed and defensive typing, in addition to a less-than-ideal offensive movepool. These combined flaws make Kyurem-B extremely vulnerable to common super effective attacks from many faster Pokemon or priority users in OU. Its Ice typing also makes it annoyingly weak to all forms of entry hazards, which greatly lessens its effectiveness if not supported by entry hazard control. Kyurem-B's worst flaw, however, is its horrible physical movepool, which is basically limited to Fusion Bolt, Dragon Claw, and Outrage, often making it dependent on special moves for coverage. This isn't taking into account massive competition with other Dragon-types in OU, some of which boast a higher Speed stat and/or better movesets than Kyurem-B.



Kyurem and Regigigas have a solid excuse though. I think if we allow Pseudo Legendaries we should allow the standard non Uber ones, and the fact is that many of them are spread evenly in Underused and Overused, and are really not that big of threats in game if you know how to deal with them.

That said I do think maybe limiting both legendary and pseudo-legendaries to 1 each will calm down those who aren't familiar with the metagame.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 13, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> *NF League Proposal*
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Challenger/Reserves_
> ...



Personally, I think the E4 should be able to have 2 Pok?mon not of their type, especially with the potential OU/UU split. Otherwise, that all looks good!

Edit: I agree with what Bioness said above; a limit to one legendary per team should be put into place. 

I'm TheBiNexus on Pok?mon Showdown btw.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 13, 2013)

Maybe only 1 OU legendary? Stuff like Terrakion, Jirachi and Keldeo are insane and all of them are considered really strong. For those that aren't aware, at Smogon they've gone even further into the tiers within OU and UU. 




I only really recommend going into those if you've got you've done some competitive battling. If we want to differentiate the players and stop experienced players completely roflstomping everyone, we may want to take into consideration those tiers as rules. I understand this can complicate things further however I think it may be worth it.

EDIT: It's funny you mention that Bioness, there's debate on whether Kyurem-B should be suspect tested. This is the stuff they do to determine if something should be Ubers banned or not. The reason they haven't is because they've just finished with Keldeo and they won't have enough time before Gen 6


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 13, 2013)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Maybe only 1 OU legendary? Stuff like Terrakion, Jirachi and Keldeo are insane and all of them are considered really strong.



The reason I don't want any legendary pokes.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 13, 2013)

Thinking about it, the E4 should have a greater restriction on their teams over the Gym Leaders. Since the experienced players will be the E4 then they already have that advantage, giving them 2 free pokemon slots will make them so much tougher than gym leaders. If anything I think gym leaders should get that luxury


----------



## Bioness (Oct 13, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> The reason I don't want any legendary pokes.



Yeah, but as already stated most legendary Pokemon who aren't Ubers, aren't big deals.



omg laser pew pew! said:


> Thinking about it, the E4 should have a greater restriction on their teams over the Gym Leaders. Since the experienced players will be the E4 then they already have that advantage, giving them 2 free pokemon slots will make them so much tougher than gym leaders. If anything I think gym leaders should get that luxury



The Elite Four should be harder, if anything only allow 1 non type for both, or don't allow another type at all.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 13, 2013)

I can agree with 1 non-type


----------



## Stunna (Oct 13, 2013)

Time to make my team.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 13, 2013)

If anyone wants to practice with me I'm in the Monotype room on Showdown, same name.

I'll just switch one of my Pokemon for a non type when the time comes.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 13, 2013)

Ok, I'll be on in a few Bioness


----------



## Saru (Oct 14, 2013)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Maybe only 1 OU legendary? Stuff like Terrakion, Jirachi and Keldeo are insane and all of them are considered really strong. For those that aren't aware, at Smogon they've gone even further into the tiers within OU and UU.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



oh, poo, why did you reveal that to the masses?

I don't think we should get that strict. I mean, you can use Pokes in UU or even RU and peak #1 in PS or PO. also, there's a lot of different people that are going to be entering this tournament (I hope). there are wide gaps between the members on here in terms of battle intelligence; some people are at a really high level, and others are at a lower level. people are going to have to step up to the challenge and do some work (lel) if they really enter a _competitive_ tournament with the intent of winning. I don't think we should coddle the players with a bland environment and a narrower list of options. 

I just don't want the tournament to become bloated with restrictions and what seem like protective measures. sorry if that comes across as elitist or douche-y... I'm not trying to sound elitist at all


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 14, 2013)

No one ever has legendary pokemon if they are gym leaders or elite 4.
I just thought that should be brought up.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 14, 2013)

Saru said:


> oh, poo, why did you reveal that to the masses?
> 
> I don't think we should get that strict. I mean, you can use Pokes in UU or even RU and peak #1 in PS or PO. also, there's a lot of different people that are going to be entering this tournament (I hope). there are wide gaps between the members on here in terms of battle intelligence; some people are at a really high level, and others are at a lower level. people are going to have to step up to the challenge and do some work (lel) if they really enter a _competitive_ tournament with the intent of winning. I don't think we should coddle the players with a bland environment and a narrower list of options.
> 
> I just don't want the tournament to become bloated with restrictions and what seem like protective measures. sorry if that comes across as elitist or douche-y... I'm not trying to sound elitist at all



Fair enough, it's something we could consider after we've done a few of these. 



Unlosing Ranger said:


> No one ever has legendary pokemon if they are gym leaders or elite 4.
> I just thought that should be brought up.



I'm speaking purely from my own bias as the Ice member as there are very few viable Ice-pokemon. , out of the list there isn't even enough for a full team using all the OU and UU ice pokemon and one of them is a legendary. I have to go down into NU/RL/BL to fill out the rest of the team and even then the best of them are legendary (Kyurem, Articuno, Rotom-F, Regice). 

Not to mention it gives a big advantage to trainers because they would be allowed any non-Uber legendary and any experienced battler with legendaries will stomp through anyone.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 14, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> No one ever has legendary pokemon if they are gym leaders or elite 4.
> I just thought that should be brought up.



Not in the main series games, and why does this matter anyway? Why are you so hung up on legendaries.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 14, 2013)

I gotta run; it's getting late. Night everyone.


----------



## Saru (Oct 14, 2013)

^^
Good night.

I definitely think that non-Uber Legends should be allowed. The question is how limited we should be. I like Patchouli's idea (I think) of being limited to one, but perhaps there should be special cases (like pew pew!) who are allowed more Legends than normal. 

It's another thing that could be decided with a vote.

1-2 Legends (for challengers) sounds like a good enough limit to me.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 14, 2013)

Bioness said:


> Not in the main series games, and why does this matter anyway? Why are you so hung up on legendaries.



I never use them.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 14, 2013)

Pat yourself on the back

EDIT: I'm home now, anyone that wants to have a few practice can find me in the Monotype chatroom


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 14, 2013)

Currently the majority of people in the poll have voted for allowing 1 Legendary per team. That rule will be for Challengers. The Legendaries themselves can only be non Ubers. 

For the Ice Gym situation, we could allow 2/6 of the Pokemon to be of a type different than ice. That'd allow for more flexibility.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 14, 2013)

Speaking of those polls.





These are the polls from earlier. I'll close them up in about 12 hours.


----------



## Tsunami (Oct 14, 2013)

whats your name on pokemon showdown, laser?


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 14, 2013)

Hey whoever TsunamiNF is, I'm FruitBuyer on Smogon

EDIT: I didn't see your post above me


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 14, 2013)

Just made a water team to get a first hand account of what gym leaders will go through. Anyone wanna challenge me?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 14, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> Just made a water team to get a first hand account of what gym leaders will go through. Anyone wanna challenge me?



I will give me a second


----------



## Blur (Oct 14, 2013)

Sounds good.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 14, 2013)

What are your guy's names on Showdown?


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 14, 2013)

Patchy's Magnificent Mariners suffered a humiliating loss. 

Anyways, gnite guys. :33


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 14, 2013)

Currently on Pok?mon Showdown in the Monotype Lobby if anyone wants to practice.

Name: TheBiNexus


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 14, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> Speaking of those polls.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In case anyone hasn't voted on these already.

We need a tie-breaker on one of the questions.


----------



## Saru (Oct 14, 2013)

^just voted on the more recent one

was trying to ladder last night and the server was being funky 

won like four times in a row with no gain in rating


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 14, 2013)

Saru said:


> ^just voted on the more recent one
> 
> was trying to ladder last night and the server was being funky
> 
> won like four times in a row with no gain in rating



Have you registered your name? If you haven't I don't believe it accumulates ladder points. 

Currently in the Monotype lobby if anyone wants to test out their teams.


----------



## Saru (Oct 14, 2013)

BiNexus said:


> Have you registered your name? If you haven't I don't believe it accumulates ladder points.
> 
> Currently in the Monotype lobby if anyone wants to test out their teams.



yeah. there were just server errors. :/

I'd challenge you but I'm a challenger


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 14, 2013)

BiNexus is scared, refuses to accept my challenge.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 14, 2013)

Come at me bros. Toss a pm my way and I'll battle you.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 14, 2013)

Whats your name on Showdown?


----------



## SinRaven (Oct 14, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> Patchy's Magnificent Mariners suffered a humiliating loss.



Shouldn't that be Misty's Magnificent Mariners?


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 14, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> BiNexus is scared, refuses to accept my challenge.



I was eating D: sorry, I'm on now


----------



## Olivia (Oct 14, 2013)

I should probably create a new account, as my current username has my full irl name.


----------



## SinRaven (Oct 14, 2013)

Does it have to be strictly 3 OU and 3 UU?

I want to have 2 OU and 4 UU Pok?mon. This includes most of my favorite strong flyers.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 14, 2013)

I think up to 3 OU pokemon is more prudent. You can fill out the rest with up to 3 UU and anything from the lower tiers


----------



## tgre (Oct 14, 2013)

Now are the challengers meant to make the teams BEFORE the gym leaders/E4 get announced?

Personally I'd love that because then the challenger has to pretty much anticipate anything and utilize his main + reserve team slots wisely.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 14, 2013)

Space said:


> Does it have to be strictly 3 OU and 3 UU?
> 
> I want to have 2 OU and 4 UU Pok?mon. This includes most of my favorite strong flyers.



You could have all Little Cup pokemon if you wanted. The 3 OU/3 UU thing is a limit for how many of each of those you could have in your party. You're also allowed to roll with an all UU team if you want.

Consider the OU spots as flexible in that they can be changed into UU and under spots.



tGre teh Disleksik said:


> Now are the challengers meant to make the teams BEFORE the gym leaders/E4 get announced?
> 
> Personally I'd love that because then the challenger has to pretty much anticipate anything and utilize his main + reserve team slots wisely.



Challengers will know what types they'll be facing for gyms, e4 will probably have hidden types until the challengers get there. That said, they won't know what's on the teams before they actually challenge the leader.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 14, 2013)

Who is Minty Moogle on PS?


----------



## SinRaven (Oct 14, 2013)

Great. :33

This will probably make my team weaker than other gym leaders, but I don't hope that's a problem. 

Pidgey, Spearow, Hoothoot, Taillow, Starly and Pidove: Let's do this guys! :33


----------



## Olivia (Oct 14, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> Currently the majority of people in the poll have voted for allowing 1 Legendary per team. That rule will be for Challengers. The Legendaries themselves can only be non Ubers.
> 
> For the Ice Gym situation, we could allow 2/6 of the Pokemon to be of a type different than ice. That'd allow for more flexibility.



Sp the legendaries are only useable by challengers right? Just want clarification.


----------



## tgre (Oct 14, 2013)

Space said:


> Great. :33
> 
> This will probably make my team weaker than other gym leaders, but I don't hope that's a problem.
> 
> Pidgey, Spearow, Hoothoot, Taillow, Starly and Pidove: Let's do this guys! :33



Thunderbolt, fuck you.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 14, 2013)

tGre teh Disleksik said:


> Now are the challengers meant to make the teams BEFORE the gym leaders/E4 get announced?
> 
> Personally I'd love that because then the challenger has to pretty much anticipate anything and utilize his main + reserve team slots wisely.



You should make the teams now and get better with it. Making a team to snipe the E4 can come and bite you in your behind because a gym leader could then smack you around

EDIT: We should start updating the first page with the rules so far. Whenever we make changes, just make a post saying the first page is updated


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 14, 2013)

Space said:


> Great. :33
> 
> This will probably make my team weaker than other gym leaders, but I don't hope that's a problem.
> 
> Pidgey, Spearow, Hoothoot, Taillow, Starly and Pidove: Let's do this guys! :33



No problem. :33



Olivia said:


> Sp the legendaries are only useable by challengers right? Just want clarification.



That's correct. But only legendaries that are OU and below. 



omg laser pew pew! said:


> You should make the teams now and get better with it. Making a team to snipe the E4 can come and bite you in your behind because a gym leader could then smack you around
> 
> EDIT: We should start updating the first page with the rules so far. Whenever we make changes, just make a post saying the first page is updated



Gonna consider the polls closed. Will take the info gathered from it and rewrite the entire first page with all the updated info. Going to try to keep it as clean as possible, so people don't have to peruse through a one-hundred page rulebook.


----------



## Saru (Oct 14, 2013)

^and challengers will have to register their team in it's entirety (6+3 subs) upon entering the tournament since the E4 will probably remain a secret. this way, once the the types are revealed, people can't say put in subs that will be more advantageous to them.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 14, 2013)

Okay so if I'm understanding this right, the Gym Leaders and Elite Four can't use legendary Pokemon regardless of how they are used?


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 15, 2013)

​
This is a tournament done in the style of a league. If you sign up, you'll face off against volunteers rather than other competitors. The exception to that is Champion battles. When a competitor becomes Champion, they then need to defend their title against anyone else who manages to make it through the Elite Four. The tournament ends once all trainers are eliminated.

If you've ever played any of the Pokemon games, the gameplay is the same, minus all the leveling. The matches will host on Pokemon Showdown, not wi-fi. *This means you can participate even if you don't own a DS/3DS! *  You do not need to download Pokemon Showdown, just register on their site.


​
If there's a Champion, and they retain their title until all other trainers are eliminated, they'll have a choice between two different rewards.



Naruto said:


> Permanent sparkles, permanent custom user title and they get ONE DAY to upload a 150x200 avatar that will also be permanent provided they never change it after the first day.
> 
> OR
> 
> 3 months worth of: sparkles, custom user title of your choosing, and 150x200 avatar.



All Volunteers will receive mod rep for their time. Additionally, there could be a prize for Gym Leader and Elite Four member that eliminates to most Trainers.



Naruto said:


> ...but I just had an excellent idea.
> 
> The gym leader/elite four who eliminates the most contestants will also get a prize. Does that sound fair? I think I can persuade an admin to do 3 big prizes instead of 1.




​
Trainers will register a pool of 9 Pokemon that they'll be able to use throughout the league. We're going by Smogon's B/W tiers, and only allowing Gen 1-5 Pokemon. When choosing your Pokemon, make sure not to have any Uber tiered Pokemon. You can have up to 3 OU tiered Pokemon in your party at a time. Trainer's are allowed 1 Legendary, so long as it is OU tier or below. After each gym battle, the Trainer may freely switch out up to 2 of their party Pokemon for 2 of their reserves. Additionally, you can swap out any of your Pokemon's moves and items between matches. 


Here is a link to the tiers.​
*Gyms*

The format for the gyms is simple. You choose one of the gym leaders, arrange a battle with them, defeat them, and receive their gym badge. If you're defeated, you're given one rematch per gym. After a loss, you can face any other gym you'd like, or you can take up the rematch offer right away. If you lose twice against the same leader, you're eliminated. The exception being if the Gym leader voluntarily extends another rematch opportunity. 

Practice matches can be arranged with Gym leaders if they have time. These matches will obviously not count whether you win or lose. 

5/6 of a Gym leader's Pokemon will be of the same element type. Gym leaders may not use Legendaries, and can have at a maximum 3 OU Pokemon. Gym leaders possess no reserve pool.

*Elite Four*

The Elite Four can be faced in any order, but only after 8 gym badges are obtained. Once you begin the first fight against the Elite Four, you must use the same party throughout the duration of the fights. If you're defeated, you have a second chance to face the entire Elite Four again. If you lose the challenge twice, you're eliminated. The exception being if a member of the Elite Four offers you a rematch. If you take up that offer, you have to face the entire Elite Four, starting with the member who extended the rematch offer.

The types the Elite Four use will be hidden until the match. If you're a Trainer that makes it through the Elite Four, it's up to you whether or not you want to inform the other trainers of their types. 

5/6 of an Elite Four member's Pokemon will be of the same element type. The Elite Four may not use Legendaries, and can have at a maximum 3 OU Pokemon. The Elite Four possess no reserve pool.

*Champion*

The Champion is whichever Trainer makes it through the Elite Four first. Any trainer who makes it through the Elite Four after that may challenge the Champion for their title. The loser of this match is not given a second chance, they're eliminated.

​
If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I'll get to your question as soon as I can. :33


----------



## Olivia (Oct 15, 2013)

What level are we doing, just all level 100?


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 15, 2013)

Yeah, all level 100's.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 15, 2013)

No legendaries? Oh sheesh this will be fun. I'll need to change half my team 



Olivia said:


> What level are we doing, just all level 100?



Lvl 100


----------



## tgre (Oct 15, 2013)

oh shit I should probably start teambuilding then zz

I have a rough idea but let's see how we go

question: if you're a gym leader/e4 are you still allowed to challenge- meaning there may have to be reserve gyms/e4 trainers? Or nah?

I'm not fussed either way but I'm sure somewhere down the line a gym leader/e4 might feel like he/she wants a crack at a 150x200 ava/sparkles etc


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 15, 2013)

If this goes well, we can hold a gym leader tournament at the end like in Pokemon special.


----------



## tgre (Oct 15, 2013)

that would actually be sick


----------



## tgre (Oct 15, 2013)

also who's going to determine the sequence of the gauntlet and what will it be based on?

Ie: experienced players familiar with smogon tiers near the end etc or random placement blah blah


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 15, 2013)

If anyone wants to play, I'm on now in the mono-type chatroom on Showdown. I'd like to test out my new team


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 15, 2013)

I'm on showdown right now, let me test out my new team.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 15, 2013)

tGre teh Disleksik said:


> also who's going to determine the sequence of the gauntlet and what will it be based on?
> 
> Ie: experienced players familiar with smogon tiers near the end etc or random placement blah blah



You can challenge the leaders in any order, how ever if you lose to the same leader twice, you are out, so its a good idea to challenge everyone before you go for rematches.


----------



## Dei (Oct 15, 2013)

This seems like an absolutely brilliant idea will be sure to set up a team soon.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 15, 2013)

Currently in the Monotype lobby on PS if any volunteers want to test out their team.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 15, 2013)

Binexus beat my entire team of Arcues so easily, you guys better watch out for him.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 15, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Binexus beat my entire team of Arcues so easily, you guys better watch out for him.





Sorry I had to go suddenly earlier; I'll be on again in ~30 minutes.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 16, 2013)

Anyone on now?


----------



## Chaos (Oct 16, 2013)

I'm on.

In the monotype room.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 17, 2013)

Should we start registration soon? 

Also any one that's still not sleeping, look for Fruitbuyer in the monotype room


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 17, 2013)

Yeah I think we should start accepting registrations, it seems we got the rules worked out.


----------



## tgre (Oct 17, 2013)

ah sweet

I'm obviously tgre_ on PS

I'll jump on now, skills are rusty as fudge


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 17, 2013)

Which room are you in?


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 17, 2013)

Currently in the Monotype lobby if anyone wants to test.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 17, 2013)

> 1: Chaos - Poison Gym
> 2: Space - Flying Gym
> 3: Xiammes - Ground Gym
> 4: omg laser pew pew! - Ice Gym
> ...



This is the current leaders, according to who replied back to the verification pm. Still have a few spots to fill before we can put up trainer/team registration.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 17, 2013)

Looking good 

A compiled list of everyone's Showdown name would be good too. Maybe a secondary PM because they are a bit scattered in this thread.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 17, 2013)

everyone knows there is no such things as a dark gym


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 17, 2013)

I might as well whip up a mega man styled opponent selection thing. Like have a grid like this.

[Gym][Gym][Gym]
[Gym][Elit4][Gym]
[Gym][Gym][Gym]

And have each picture link to your profiles. The elite four one would just link to me, so I can verify someone has gotten 8 badges and is ready to lock in their pokemon. 

Or could have the middle just be a pokeball or something, and have a separate 2x2 grid. I think we'll go with that actually.


----------



## Chaos (Oct 18, 2013)

How long do I have to finalize my team?


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 18, 2013)

As ego-killing it is, it's best that I take a Gym leader role. 

God-damn team building restrictions


----------



## SinRaven (Oct 18, 2013)

My Pokemon Showdown name is SinRaven


----------



## Bioness (Oct 18, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> I might as well whip up a mega man styled opponent selection thing. Like have a grid like this.
> 
> [Gym][Gym][Gym]
> [Gym][Elit4][Gym]
> ...



Sounds like a plan.



Chaos said:


> How long do I have to finalize my team?



Soon (tm), though really I would recommend starting it now and playing against people in the Monotype league on Smogon's Pokemon Showdown. Although when you have Monotype vs. Monotype some types just dominate others types and there is nothing you can do about it.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 18, 2013)

Will be in the Monotype Lobby for the next hour or so if any volunteers want to test their team. Name is TheBiNexus. Send me a VM or PM if you want to play, please, as I won't have the PS window open at all times.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 18, 2013)

I think we've hit our fill on volunteers. Could have 7 Gyms and an Elite Two.


----------



## Platinum (Oct 18, 2013)

I could maybe run a ghost gym if needed. Otherwise I wouldn't mind challenging the others when this is up and running.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 18, 2013)

If we've hit all of our volunteers, then it'd probably best to have 6 gyms and 3 Elite 4 3. 3 Varying types and strategies are better than 2, and it makes it so that challengers can't just easily power through 2 teams with SE moves and make it to the Champion.

Plus, 6 and 3 are more pleasing numbers than 7 and 2


----------



## Olivia (Oct 18, 2013)

You're counting me as the fire gym, correct? :33


----------



## Bioness (Oct 18, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> I think we've hit our fill on volunteers. Could have 7 Gyms and an Elite Two.



Would prefer to just get 3 more.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 18, 2013)

Platinum said:


> I could maybe run a ghost gym if needed. Otherwise I wouldn't mind challenging the others when this is up and running.



That'd work, want me to add you?



BiNexus said:


> If we've hit all of our volunteers, then it'd probably best to have 6 gyms and 3 Elite 4 3. 3 Varying types and strategies are better than 2, and it makes it so that challengers can't just easily power through 2 teams with SE moves and make it to the Champion.
> 
> Plus, 6 and 3 are more pleasing numbers than 7 and 2



Could do that if necessary.



Olivia said:


> You're counting me as the fire gym, correct? :33



I am. 



Bioness said:


> Would prefer to just get 3 more.



I feel the same. Will ask around a bit and see if anyone is interested.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 18, 2013)

What happened to the 14 we had


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 18, 2013)

They didn't want to be the very best


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 18, 2013)

Bioness said:


> What happened to the 14 we had



I sent a pm to everyone who showed interest, but not everybody replied.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 18, 2013)

Send it again, this time with angry letters


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 18, 2013)

yeah they might have missed the pm or something. I wouldn't mind pulling double time being a elite 4 member if I have too, my schedule is certainly open enough.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 19, 2013)

Currently in the monotype lobby for the next hour, if any volunteers want to test their team.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 19, 2013)

I've switched to fighting. Because it's easy for my knickers to get in a twist, I may end up switching next week as well


----------



## Big Mom (Oct 19, 2013)

I WANT TO JOIN THIS!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Bioness (Oct 19, 2013)

Hiruzen no Fairies are allowed and Poison type is already taken. You can still be a challenger though.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 19, 2013)

Not gonna challenge anymore.


----------



## Big Mom (Oct 19, 2013)

I want to be Ice Type!!


----------



## Bioness (Oct 19, 2013)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> I want to be Ice Type!!



Be our guest, and make sure to get some practice in the Smogon Pokemon Showdown Monotype.


----------



## Big Mom (Oct 19, 2013)

yyyeeeeeeaaaahhhhh!!!!!


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 19, 2013)

You can't use Kyurem as a gym leader


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 19, 2013)

Should there be a rule on the champion having no legendaries as well?


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 19, 2013)

Something else you want to bitch about, eh?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 19, 2013)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Something else you want to bitch about, eh?



Plenty to bitch about in the new metagame.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

I obviously want to be Fairy type


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 19, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> I obviously want to be Fairy type



It's going to be based on Gens 1-5, so there unfortunately won't be a fairy-type option.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

We have gen 6 why not incorporate it?


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 19, 2013)

Because it's not inputted into Pokemon Showdown yet


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Shouldn't be long actually


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 19, 2013)

Regardless not all the necessary Gen 6 changes have been inputted, you can wait when it's done


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Fine I guess


----------



## Chaos (Oct 19, 2013)

I'd like an experienced player here to look over my line-up. Preferably someone who'll also be a gym leader/elite 4 member.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

So what positions are open?


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Chaos said:


> I'd like an experienced player here to look over my line-up. Preferably someone who'll also be a gym leader/elite 4 member.



I could probably look at it.


----------



## Big Mom (Oct 19, 2013)

I understand I can't use Kyurem


----------



## Bioness (Oct 19, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Should there be a rule on the champion having no legendaries as well?



Look you already complained enough for irrational reasons regarding legendaries and basically royally screw certain types from even having a fighting chance, just drop it.



Unlosing Ranger said:


> Plenty to bitch about in the new metagame.



Change happens.



Iron Man said:


> We have gen 6 why not incorporate it?



Bad idea, it can take up to a year to properly set the standards for a new generation and you want to do it after only a week?



Iron Man said:


> So what positions are open?



You can read back a page or two, we have 2 Elite Four positions open, however if you want you can likely switch with a gym leader if competency is a concern.


----------



## Big Mom (Oct 19, 2013)

Ice Type Elite Four!!!

That's me!


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 19, 2013)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Ice Type Elite Four!!!
> 
> That's me!



Hiruzen, are you able to test on PS right now? I've got some free time to kill


----------



## Stunna (Oct 19, 2013)

I'd test battle with some peeps, but my internet connection has been wonky for the past week. Can't handle the servers right now.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 19, 2013)

Bioness said:


> Look you already complained enough for irrational reasons regarding legendaries and basically royally screw certain types from even having a fighting chance, just drop it.



So it's irrational to complain that I'm being forced to use certain pokemon?


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Bioness said:


> Look you already complained enough for irrational reasons regarding legendaries and basically royally screw certain types from even having a fighting chance, just drop it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you bums used 3DS it would be different. But meh.

I want to be Elite 4 boss ( Mixed )


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

That is to say a mix of Ghost, Psychic, Dark


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 19, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> If you bums used 3DS it would be different. But meh.
> 
> I want to be Elite 4 boss ( Mixed )





Iron Man said:


> That is to say a mix of Ghost, Psychic, Dark



Unfortunately, the first challenger to beat the E4 will serve as the Champion.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 19, 2013)

Alright, we've got to move forward. This is taking ages.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 19, 2013)

Quick answers here. 

Champion legendaries. Yes. All challengers can have legendaries, the champion isn't a volunteer, they're a competitor. They get legendaries.

Gens - Gen 1-5. Gen 6 is too new. No tournament standards in place for it yet, and not fully implemented/reliable on Pokemon Showdown.

Erio - 5/6 must be the same type. It's fine to have dual types. You could roll with a Ghost, Psychic, and Dark team so long 5/6 of them had a single type in common. The sixth pokemon on your team could be any type.

Gym spots: Need to do a quick tally to see what spots we've got now. But if there are any extra, I can fill a spot. If there's any left after that, then to hell with those spots. We'll adjust our gym/elite four structure accordingly. 

Restrictions: Sorry, but yes, you're not going to be able to use ubers. Additionally you can have up to a max of 3 OU's. And if you're a volunteer, then legendaries are out too. The game is designed to be rigged in favor of challengers. Volunteers sign up knowing this. And challengers who don't like the rules can just opt to not play. We've spent a whole fucking week on this issue of team balance, and I'm going by what the majority want. I'm sorry if any of you dislike it, but it's what we're doing. If it doesn't pan out in real play, then big deal, we learn our mistakes and make league #2 sometime down the line with past failures in mind.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

BiNexus said:


> Unfortunately, the first challenger to beat the E4 will serve as the Champion.



I was reffering to the classic layout of the E4 with the last member being like the boss of the league. So basically the last of the four.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 19, 2013)

Elite Four are treated equal in this. The in-fighting over being the final boss would be ridiculous. The exception to this rule is if we have a final boss that uses an all magikarp team.

I would allow this.


----------



## Saru (Oct 19, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> Elite Four are treated equal in this. The in-fighting over being the final boss would be ridiculous. The exception to this rule is if we have a final boss that uses an all magikarp team.
> 
> I would allow this.



I am in full support of this as well.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

U know they're all the same. Which is why gen 5 onward you challenge how you see fit.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 19, 2013)

> 1: Chaos - Poison Gym
> 2: Space - Flying Gym
> 3: Xiammes - Ground Gym
> 4: omg laser pew pew! - Fighting Gym
> ...



Current volunteers. Platinum said he could do a ghost gym if needed. If he'd prefer to challenge, I'll take over that gym spot with a ghost gym. If he'd like to keep the spot, it's all his. Already sent him a pm about it. 

We should be good to go. Will make the registration thread for challengers. This thread will be turned into a general discussion thread. Could also double as the game thread.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 19, 2013)

Nice, no conflicting gym types.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 19, 2013)

Platinum confirmed as ghost gym. Putting up registrations right now.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 19, 2013)

Registrations are up. :33


----------



## Bioness (Oct 19, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> That is to say a mix of Ghost, Psychic, Dark



No, read the rules.



Iron Man said:


> If you bums used 3DS it would be different. But meh.
> 
> I want to be Elite 4 boss ( Mixed )



No it wouldn't be different, it would actually be more difficult and we would have no way to properly police the rules.



Patchouli said:


> Current volunteers. Platinum said he could do a ghost gym if needed. If he'd prefer to challenge, I'll take over that gym spot with a ghost gym. If he'd like to keep the spot, it's all his. Already sent him a pm about it.
> 
> We should be good to go. Will make the registration thread for challengers. This thread will be turned into a general discussion thread. Could also double as the game thread.



Considering Hiruzen already blurted out his type without reading...

Whatever it'll work.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Just stop please. I've been in the series since fen 1 I know how it works. I'm just throwing out the idea of using 4/6 of my theme.

Also a 3DS League would arguably be easier, and better. It would take actual skill to defeat a leader/elite instead of just inputting numbers.


----------



## Stunna (Oct 19, 2013)

I don't own a 3DS.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 19, 2013)

Main reason we're on Pokemon Showdown is because not everybody has a 3ds. It still takes skill, since the battles are largely the same as they are in game. It's just easier for a tournament since you can have level 100 teams without waiting for everybody to EV level and all that.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Stunna I'm disappointed in you. 

I can see the appeal of showdown admittedly, but it takes away from the experience in my opinion.


----------



## Stunna (Oct 19, 2013)

It's hard being broke.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Patchouli said:


> Main reason we're on Pokemon Showdown is because not everybody has a 3ds. It still takes skill, since the battles are largely the same as they are in game. It's just easier for a tournament since you can have level 100 teams without waiting for everybody to EV level and all that.



Eving, breeding, and leveling are what makes the meta game what it is. It takes dedication. Anyway with normal rules all Pokemon 50 or above are set to 50, and the stats are adjusted accordingly. Doesn't take much work, especially with the invention of super training.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 19, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> Just stop please. I've been in the series since fen 1 I know how it works. I'm just throwing out the idea of using 4/6 of my theme.
> 
> Also a 3DS League would arguably be easier, and better. It would take actual skill to defeat a leader/elite instead of just inputting numbers.



Inputting numbers requires a strong understanding of how moves, stats, abilities, etc play off each other. The "skill" you are talking about requires pointless days of RNG grinding just to get the ideal natures, IVs, abilities, and attacks. Skill =/= Time.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Dedication >


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 19, 2013)

It's a bit late to change anything that fundamental to the format. We've already got registrations open after a week of debate over what to do and how.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 19, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> Dedication >



It all comes down to time at the end of the day. Not to pull the "I have a life" excuse so openly used against "skilled" players in video games, but I have had Pokemon Y since launch and because of my "life" have only been able to "dedicate" 12 fucking hours so far into it.

So excuse me if I'd rather a setting where time is not a factor.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Not even near a valid excuse. It takes literally no time to ev train now.

Hell if you run through the E4 twice you could probably be at level 50. One run through of the E4 brings a level 1 to around 32 - 33. 

Also allow me to punch holes in your argument because time is absolutely the mark of skill in this game. You can ev and be on your way. But someone with skill in the game will invest in individual values, and hidden abilities.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 19, 2013)

Did you not read the part where I said I only have 12 hours played? Or where Stunna mentions he doesn't have a 3DS?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 19, 2013)

I don't have a 3ds, nor the time for that


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 19, 2013)

Are we really arguing about this?

Showdown is infinitely better for a online tournament like how we are doing.

- The Smogon ruleset is already enforced
- Anyone with a computer can participate
- Other people can watch your game
- Replays


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

You only have a few hours, but you also discounted time ≈ skill. Which is what I was addressing. I know some may not have 3/2DS. But it still doesn't change the fact that actual Pokemon would be more rewarding than a simulator. Anyone can input 252 evs, and 31 IVs in a stat, but another thing to actual manage to do it.

//Purist


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> Are we really arguing about this?
> 
> Showdown is infinitely better for a online tournament like how we are doing.
> 
> ...



Which is false. You can no more enforce rules on showdown then I can on Y, unless I missed something.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 19, 2013)

Say Ironman do you want a few random battles?


----------



## Saru (Oct 19, 2013)

actually EV training? lolwut

no, I don't have time for that. a lot of people don't even have a 3DS. and some Pok?mon can't even be obtained in the game yet due to lack of backwards compatibility. 

don't even get me started on IVs. yeah, good luck getting those perfect IVs using Power Items and breeding (in other words, NO RNG Abuse). all of this stuff is just numbers, and like Bioness said, at the end of the day, time is limited, and so simulators are the best option for both their expediency and simple interface. it's just the way it is I guess.

I know this has no bearing on the current tournament, but I thought I'd just speak up in case this is brought up again in the future.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 19, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> Which is false. You can no more enforce rules on showdown then I can on Y, unless I missed something.



I mean the smogon ruleset, the only thing we are doing different then a standard OU match is limiting the use of OU pokemon to three and the Gym leaders and elite 4 will be themed based with no legendaries.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Meh I plan on going to VGC. We have to do this stuff. Even RNG abuse can be time consuming.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Say Ironman do you want a few random battles?



Admittedly I'm still mulling over my candidates. Gen 6 is sort of rough at the moment. We need to get a lot of these megas banned. *cough* gengar *


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 19, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> Admittedly I'm still mulling over my candidates. Gen 6 is sort of rough at the moment. We need to get a lot of these megas banned. *cough* gengar *



Randoms are battles you just start out with no effort everything is picked for you.

On that note how in the hell does the OU rule work if you just do your own thing and the pokemon is in more than one tier?


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 19, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Randoms are battles you just start out with no effort everything is picked for you.
> 
> On that note how in the hell does the OU rule work if you just do your own thing and the pokemon is in more than one tier?



In more then one tier? What ever the lowest tier a pokemon can be used is its tier. A lot of pokemon are viable in ubers, that doesn't make them uber.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

The way I usually play since I OU tier. You use any amount of Pokemon up to OU tier, no duplicate species, items etc.

Limiting to 3 overused is silly, just as restricting legends is.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 19, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> In more then one tier? What ever the lowest tier a pokemon can be used is its tier. A lot of pokemon are viable in ubers, that doesn't make them uber.



So I could use an uber viable build and it would still not be uber?
Good to know.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 19, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> You only have a few hours, but you also discounted time ≈ skill. Which is what I was addressing. I know some may not have 3/2DS. But it still doesn't change the fact that actual Pokemon would be more rewarding than a simulator. Anyone can input 252 evs, and 31 IVs in a stat, but another thing to actual manage to do it.
> 
> //Purist



IVs are automatically set at 31.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> So I could use an uber viable build and it would still not be uber?
> Good to know.



As long as you don't have a uber. Because if you have one your team is automatically limited to ubers.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Bioness said:


> IVs are automatically set at 31.



That is even worse.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 19, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> So I could use an uber viable build and it would still not be uber?
> Good to know.



That's a bad idea, Uber teams are made to face other Uber teams, and actually aren't meant to be played in other tiers.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 19, 2013)

I have to agree with Bioness on this. Not everyone has the time to fully EV a full team adjusted to your certain gym type, let along EV a team that will work for yourself in game. With a full time job on my hands it would be very hard for me to EV train, and prepare, for a battle like this in game. Besides, I'm not necissarily one to spend all my available free time to completely EV train, where as I would actually rather enjoy the game that I bought. This could be changed if I adjusted my priorities while playing, but I would like to spend my avaliable time actually enjoying myself, which makes a simulator very handy in this sort of situation.

There's also the case of allowed a large majority of people to participate. By limiting this contest to a 2/3DS set up, we would probably lose a lot of contestants. The large population of this forum is able to access a computer, and thus a simulator like PS works very well for this community.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Yeah some Pokemon would get absolutely wrecked in ubers. Ho-oh doesn't mess around.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 19, 2013)

Bioness said:


> That's a bad idea, Uber teams are made to face other Uber teams, and actually aren't meant to be played in other tiers.



Well like I said I'm not going to try to use standard teams unless it's to my liking.
That said no one knows what to expect.
It would be awesome if someone used Primeape


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 19, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> So I could use an uber viable build and it would still not be uber?
> Good to know.



A pokemon does not have to uber to do well in ubers, I have wrecked some people's shit with Froslass.




> Limiting to 3 overused is silly, just as restricting legends is.



I like the 3 OU rule, it forces some people to be creative and they just can't copy and paste some smogon team set they saw online.

The legendary rule I can see why it looks like a good idea, but most legendary's aren't even in Ubers.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 19, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Well like I said I'm not going to try to use standard teams unless it's to my liking.
> That said no one knows what to expect.
> It would be awesome if someone used Primeape



Considering the amount of people I'm about to get reported by for PM spam by, I wouldn't be surprised.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Well like I said I'm not going to try to use standard teams unless it's to my liking.
> That said no one knows what to expect.
> It would be awesome if someone used Primeape



Problem is unique teams usually don't stand a chance. Which is why the Pokemon are tiered by popularity. They're not as popular as others for reason. Ubers are psychotic monstrosities like Speed Boost Blaziken, and Mega Blaziken.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 19, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> The legendary rule I can see why it looks like a good idea, but most legendary's aren't even in Ubers.



Some are in between the lines of it. Like say Jirachi.

I wouldn't mind Rival battles inbetween gym fights


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 19, 2013)

Bioness said:


> That's a bad idea, Uber teams are made to face other Uber teams, and actually aren't meant to be played in other tiers.



This is a good point, just because a pokemon has a set that allows them to do well in Ubers, doesn't mean it will do good in other tiers.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> A pokemon does not have to uber to do well in ubers, I have wrecked some people's shit with Froslass.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



???

How does limiting to 3 stop that? You could easily still do that with slight alterations.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 19, 2013)

So have we picked a spot to fight in yet?


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 19, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Say Ironman do you want a few random battles?



Don't do it


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 19, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> ???
> 
> How does limiting to 3 stop that? You could easily still do that with slight alterations.



Since when is altering half the time team a "slight alteration"


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 19, 2013)

Most teams don't main all ou anyway.

Anyway plenty of Pokemon in other teams. An easily do well in OU, and you can still build your team off of Smogon.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 19, 2013)

Nothing wrong with building a team off of smogon, what I want to stop is someone completely copying a team off of smogon, just making a team of threats without putting thought into it. There is nothing wrong with using smogon for research.


----------



## BiNexus (Oct 20, 2013)

Why are we arguing over these things? 

The simulator aspect of this competition allows for more to participate. It allows the community to get involved and forgoes barriers like 3DS, time and money. This is evident. It allows people who simply like Pok?mon, but may not be heavily invested in the competitive scene, to get involved. That's why the majority voted on (most) of these rules and restrictions; if more people wanted a more streamlined tourney, with less restrictions on teambuilding, that would have won out. However, that would, obviously, have alienated a lot of potential candidates.

Let's not fuss about things that have effectually been set and decided, when we're trying to move on into the registration process.


----------



## Big Mom (Oct 20, 2013)

Ive never used this site before


----------



## Bioness (Oct 20, 2013)

Sigh... Hiruzen figure it out seriously, it is not that hard.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 20, 2013)

Holy Shit Iron Man is worse than Unlosing Ranger. If you don't like the rules then piss off, they've been decided, go play your 3DS if you're unhappy. No one is forcing you to join


----------



## Saru (Oct 20, 2013)

yeah, it's weird at first, Hiruzen, and I don't like the interface of PS personally--I much prefer Pok?mon Online's format--but once you get in the swing of things, everything looks way less wonky.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Ive never used this site before



[YOUTUBE]R_hL84Mvdio[/YOUTUBE]

Sites been updated a lot since the video, but everything generally runs the same.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 20, 2013)

Speaking of which, I need to get use to PS. 

EDIT: in terms of battling I mean, I'm completely fine in team creation.


----------



## Big Mom (Oct 20, 2013)

Holy shit Bioness if you plan to run something you need to learn to have a little fucking patience!

And thank you to everyone else


----------



## Big Mom (Oct 20, 2013)

Why is it making me download stuff?!? I thought it wasn't supposed to do that if I press play online?


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 20, 2013)

It shouldn't be making you download anything if clicked play online. 

What's it trying to make you download?


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Why is it making me download stuff?!? I thought it wasn't supposed to do that if I press play online?



Pokemon Showdown

You shouldn't have to download anything.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> Holy Shit Iron Man is worse than Unlosing Ranger. If you don't like the rules then piss off, they've been decided, go play your 3DS if you're unhappy. No one is forcing you to join



You're cute. Who are you again?

I wasn't  suggesting changing the venue, but that would imply you actually read my posts. In fact I was saying it shouldn't take long for fairy to be added. 

Bioness seems to be under the assumption that Most of the game isn't already discovered. Smogon University, and Serebii have already uncovered just about everything we vsn discover for now . and of course whatever they find is public domain. I'm sure neither site would mind sharing information with Showdown.

I was arguing that 3DS would be more effceint for for s tournament setting. Especially since it would require the trainers relying solely on their abilities, and not punching I'm numbers.

But with how juvenile you just came off as I don't expect you to read this, and if you do you probably won't have a worthwhile retort.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Holy shit Bioness if you plan to run something you need to learn to have a little fucking patience!
> 
> And thank you to everyone else



I actually agree with Hiruzen for once. You can't just expect people to just know about showdown, especially when it's not the most intuitive interface.


----------



## tgre (Oct 20, 2013)

I feel like we're ironing out things that didn't need to be ironed out in the first place D:


----------



## Bioness (Oct 20, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> You're cute. Who are you again?
> 
> I wasn't  suggesting changing the venue, but that would imply you actually read my posts. In fact I was saying it shouldn't take long for fairy to be added.
> 
> ...



When have I ever said the data wasn't there? It is all about testing and variables and seeing how the data interacts with each other.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 20, 2013)

Be nice to each other guys. We all just want to play Pokemon here.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

I said "seems to be." It seemed like you were impyling its too early. In fact they are constantly inputting fststa as I type.


----------



## Big Mom (Oct 20, 2013)

I just downloaded it and I'm on it now!

Building my ice team! 9 pokemon right?


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> I just downloaded it and I'm on it now!
> 
> Building my ice team! 9 pokemon right?



No, I believe we only get six.


----------



## Olivia (Oct 20, 2013)

If you're the gym leader/Elite Four then you only have a specific team of six pokemon, while the challenger gets a pool of nine.

At least that's how I remember it.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

Each Leader/Elite should have their own saying.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

Can we abloish the legend ban? Like let each Elite have a legendary. Make us tougher to beat.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

Showdown has a very simple interface, I guess to someone new it might be a little alien but its incredible streamlined, everything about it supposed to convenient


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 20, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> Can we abloish the legend ban? Like let each Elite have a legendary. Make us tougher to beat.



No, you'd be impossible.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> No, you'd be impossible.



What? Some legendaries are OU or under. They get outclassed by normal Pokemon sometimes.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 20, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> What? Some legendaries are OU or under. They get outclassed by normal Pokemon sometimes.



And some legendaries in OU are overpowered pieces of crap anyway.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> And some legendaries in OU are overpowered pieces of crap anyway.



I don't think you can call anything overpowered in OU. There is a tier for overpowered Pokemon, Ubers. 

We have stuff like Heatran, Jirachi, Celebi etc..


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> What? Some legendaries are OU or under. They get outclassed by normal Pokemon sometimes.



There is 49 legendary pokemon, only 19 are uber, that makes 30 legendaries OU or under, in OU there is only 8 legendary pokemon, that makes 22 legendary pokemon UU or under.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

And you know why they're under OU? Because they're not that good.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> And you know why they're under OU? Because they're not that good.



I'm not arguing with you, I was just saying that the bulk of legendary pokemon are UU and under.


----------



## Big Mom (Oct 20, 2013)

I don't think allowing one OU legend will make it too tough but that's just me.

I made my team!!! I want to test it!!


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> I'm not arguing with you, I was just saying that the bulk of legendary pokemon are UU and under.





Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> I don't think allowing one OU legend will make it too tough but that's just me.
> 
> I made my team!!! I want to test it!!



The more misinformed people will assume Legendary ≈ Very Strong. Sure we have the two Therians to deal with, but they're not even that bad.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 20, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> There is 49 legendary pokemon, only 19 are uber, that makes 30 legendaries OU or under, in OU there is only 8 legendary pokemon, that makes 22 legendary pokemon UU or under.


Some of the ones in the OU are a terror with just a small bit of help.
Jirachi being one of them, I'm not going to put up with something like that on the gyms and elite 4.



Iron Man said:


> And you know why they're under OU? Because they're not that good.



And if there aren't that good you can make do now can't you?
Use one of the other 600+ pokemon.


----------



## tgre (Oct 20, 2013)

Since gym leaders only have their team of six

should we release the pokemon that we have before or after the challengers register?

Or should we release them at all?


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Some of the ones in the OU are a terror with just a small bit of help.
> *Jirachi* being one of them, I'm not going to put up with something like that on the gyms and elite 4.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 20, 2013)

Really then, give your counter for it then.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

tGre teh Disleksik said:


> Since gym leaders only have their team of six
> 
> should we release the pokemon that we have before or after the challengers register?
> 
> Or should we release them at all?



After the challengers have register if we were to release, personally I think challengers should come in blind, but thats me.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Really then, give your counter for it then.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Really then, give your counter for it then.



Garchomp, Gliscor, Mamoswine, Heatran. Ferrothorn and Skarmory can set up on Jirachi.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 20, 2013)

True Story: A Jirachi raped Unlosing Ranger's team like no end, now he wants revenge.

I'd like to point out that it is really easy to change your Pokemon's move and stats and not have it be noticed. Should we do like an oath stating we as Gym Leaders/Elite Four won't do that? 

Also Patchy will you be holding all the battle records? Like make sure for each official battle the recording is saved and sent to someone for verification, unless the match was being watched.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

Also to point out, the only gym/elite 4 member that can use Jirachi would either be a steel or psychic type, and both are not very good support sets for Jirachi.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)




----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

Very specific situation? So basically you're going to tell us how your team was devoured?


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

> It has thunder and it's drizzling.
> Skarmory is out due to thunder.
> Garchomp,Mamoswime,Heatran is a maybe at best.
> Gliscor dies. Ferrothorn can only wall it.



How is it going to drizzle? Unless you are running politoad, or the psychic and steel gyms waste their 1 non type pokemon on politoad.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

> I'd like to point out that it is really easy to change your Pokemon's move and stats and not have it be noticed. Should we do like an oath stating we as Gym Leaders/Elite Four won't do that?



I don't know, I think allowing us to switch up our moves and items wouldn't be such a terrible thing, I think the stats should stay the same though. In all honesty you really couldn't tell if the stats changed other then some oath by the Gym Leaders and Elite 4.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

I'm changing to steel type.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

Also another to point out, if they were to go politoad/Jirachi, you are wasting 2/3 of your OU pokemon just for one pokemon that has its counters.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

Why would you water pulse on jirachi doesn't seem that good.


----------



## Bioness (Oct 20, 2013)

First time I saw a Jirachi with it as well.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 20, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> Very specific situation? So basically you're going to tell us how your team was devoured?


I'm going to tell you how something with good stats and absurd resistances isn't fair. It isn't a specific situation, it's classic smogon.
It's two weaknesses are practically gone with drizzle.
Fire type moves don't do enough anymore and ground types are practically helpless due to the water boost.



Xiammes said:


> How is it going to drizzle? Unless you are running politoad, or the psychic and steel gyms waste their 1 non type pokemon on politoad.



Politoad lead with drizzle.
You basically have to know the person has Jirachi and predict a switch.
Which is rather cruel considering the things that counter Jirachi wouldn't fair all that well against Politoad. A mixed poke would probably fair best in that situation and it would HAVE to be the lead.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

Good stats? Just about every Pokemon excels more than he does. One thing he has going for him is completely even stats. Barely better than normal Pokemon.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Politoad lead with drizzle.
> *You basically have to know the person has Jirachi *and predict a switch.
> Which is rather cruel considering the things that counter Jirachi wouldn't fair all that well against Politoad. A mixed poke would probably fair best in that situation and it would HAVE to be the lead.



What is team preview.

As a challenger, the advantage is in your favor, considering gyms are monotype and you can substitute 3 pokemon with a reserve pool.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 20, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> Why would you water pulse on jirachi doesn't seem that good.






water pulse 20% to now 40% chance to confuse due to Serene Grance, drizzle boosts it from 60 to 90.
It also boosts thunders parahax from 30% to 60%.
Throw a calm mind in there and I'm not sure what you can do to it from there because all it has to do to defeat your checks is spam water pulse with it's sub up.
It's basically flip a coin with you hoping things don't go horribly wrong.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

Way more solid options than a rain team gimmick. Man up, I got swept by Aegislash, doesn't make it overpowered. If you know what your team's Achilles heel is then protect it.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 20, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> You're cute. Who are you again?
> 
> I wasn't  suggesting changing the venue, but that would imply you actually read my posts. In fact I was saying it shouldn't take long for fairy to be added.
> 
> ...



Oh how cute, the "Who are you?" type post. An example of the arrogant mindset that attempts to strawman their way out. A cheap attempt for divas to rely on their E-PENIS to get their way and belittle others. I could have 1 post or 1 million posts, it wouldn't change anything.

Since you came into this thread, you've done next to nothing except bitch and complain and want things changed. Well it doesn't what you think, the rules have been decided and nothing you can say will change it

So get lost if you have nothing else to say except get things changed to how YOU like it.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

You're clearly an idiot.

The challenge had unnecessary things like legend restrictions. Legends aren't that much better than normal Pokemon if you know what you're doing. They're easy to stop especially since us in the elite and gyms are monotyped. 

The OU 3 rule seems a bit superfluous due to OU teams consisting of other tiers anyway. Don't see the need in limiting what the challenger can build their team with. Ad for us we're supposed to be tough.

I can be considered a 'veteran' in this subject, although not the best I do have advanced meta game tactics, and knowledge.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

Does anyone know where I can watch XY English Dub?


----------



## Bioness (Oct 20, 2013)

Then hone those skills as an Elite Four member then 

This stuff was all voted on days ago.

Edit: Cartoon Network


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 20, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> Way more solid options than a rain team gimmick. Man up, I got swept by Aegislash, doesn't make it overpowered. If you know what your team's Achilles heel is then protect it.


From what I heard of Aegislash it is actually very strong.




Xiammes said:


> What is team preview.
> 
> As a challenger, the advantage is in your favor, considering gyms are monotype and you can substitute 3 pokemon with a reserve pool.



Team preview doesn't help that much considering they can also see your pokemon. So it's more like 

What is mindgames. That's on top of Jirachi itself being a mindgame.



Iron Man said:


> Good stats? Just about every Pokemon excels more than he does. One thing he has going for him is completely even stats. Barely better than normal Pokemon.



Good typing practically counts towards good stats.
Stats hangs off of typing and typing hangs off of stats.
Not every pokemon has that great of a typing.


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

They only have adventures in unova..

Also why not just do Smogon OU?


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

Mindgames? Welcome to the metagame.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 20, 2013)

I'd be better off with no team preview than with it.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 20, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> You're clearly an idiot.
> 
> The challenge had unnecessary things like legend restrictions. Legends aren't that much better than normal Pokemon if you know what you're doing. They're easy to stop especially since us in the elite and gyms are monotyped.
> 
> ...



I've been one of the more vocal people against the legend rule. In fact I switched my Ice-team to fighting because it's next to impossible to make a viable ice-team because of it.

God you're not even talking about what I'm talking about. I'm talking about you coming in here and questioning everything and wanting things YOUR way. The rules have been decided, we'll do one run first and adjust from there. Smogon wasn't built in a day.


----------



## tgre (Oct 20, 2013)

nah any gym in this tourno can use jirachi

and any pokemon

since only 5/6 need to correspond to what gym you're representing

like, I'm dark gym leader but I could rock a surprise Heatran if I so wanted


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

My way? There's this site everyone uses for Metagame it's called Smogon don't know if you've heard of it, but that is there rules I was speaking of...


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

I think the rules are fine where they are at, other then ice, most other types don't need to rely on legendary pokemon.

The most important part of Pokemon is mind games, for example if you can trick someone into thinking you are choiced, you gain a pretty substantial lead. Team preview only pushes the skill ceiling up.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 20, 2013)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> I've been one of the more vocal people against the legend rule. In fact I switched my Ice-team to fighting because it's next to impossible to make a viable ice-team because of it.
> 
> God you're not even talking about what I'm talking about. I'm talking about you coming in here and questioning everything and wanting things YOUR way. The rules have been decided, we'll do one run first and adjust from there. Smogon wasn't built in a day.



Yeah shame about Articuno and the like.
Ice teams don't really have that much for themselves one way or another...
Has there ever been a fighting/Ice?


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

I want to known who agreed on something stupid like no legends


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> I want to known who agreed on something stupid like no legends



Now that I think about it, I don't think it ever was agreed, I remember seeing one rule draft that said something allowing gym leaders to have 1 legendary then suddenly it became no legendary's.


----------



## Ftg07 (Oct 20, 2013)

Lol i tried doing a pokemon tourney back in July but no one joined....


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

ftg07 said:


> Lol i tried doing a pokemon tourney back in July but no one joined....



No ones interested in a regular tourney, the league idea got people hyped.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 20, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> No ones interested in a regular tourney, the league idea got people hyped.



[YOUTUBE]UfCG_nsDtNQ[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## tgre (Oct 20, 2013)

anyone on PS right now anyway?

Gonna sit in the monotype lobby


----------



## tgre (Oct 20, 2013)

I need to see how my team fares against others D:


----------



## Olivia (Oct 20, 2013)

I would but I'm dead tired right now.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 20, 2013)

Okay give me a sec


----------



## Rain's Angel (Oct 20, 2013)

so it's based on gen 5 right?

gonna take a while to come up with a team but interested in joining.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 20, 2013)

Olivia said:


> If you're the gym leader/Elite Four then you only have a specific team of six pokemon, while the challenger gets a pool of nine.
> 
> At least that's how I remember it.



That's correct. 



Iron Man said:


> Each Leader/Elite should have their own saying.



Yes. 



tGre teh Disleksik said:


> Since gym leaders only have their team of six
> 
> should we release the pokemon that we have before or after the challengers register?
> 
> Or should we release them at all?



Only your gym type needs to be known. That actual party can remain hidden since you're not able to switch out with reserves prior to fights. (Or at all, really)



Bioness said:


> True Story: A Jirachi raped Unlosing Ranger's team like no end, now he wants revenge.
> 
> I'd like to point out that it is really easy to change your Pokemon's move and stats and not have it be noticed. Should we do like an oath stating we as Gym Leaders/Elite Four won't do that?
> 
> Also Patchy will you be holding all the battle records? Like make sure for each official battle the recording is saved and sent to someone for verification, unless the match was being watched.



I honestly have no problem with people being able to switch out moves and stats between fights. So long as they don't switch to an uber moveset on an otherwise OU tiered Pokemon. You guys are free to have your own joint agreement if you'd like.

And yeah, I'll try to keep record of everything as best as I can. It'd be great if every official match is recorded, that way things can be reviewed at any time. 



Xiammes said:


> Now that I think about it, I don't think it ever was agreed, I remember seeing one rule draft that said something allowing gym leaders to have 1 legendary then suddenly it became no legendary's.



That'd be me that did that. 

One reason I wanted to put this thread up here in the Pokemon section, other than the obvious "it's a Pokemon Tournament", is that I was looking for experienced people. The goal behind the gyms and elite four was to get people that were good at pokemon, and then nerf them to hell with restrictions. So the experience and metagame knowledge is there, and you guys would essentially have to go against challengers with one arm behind your back. 

Reason for that isn't because I dislike you guys. (I love you guys. ) But rather because I want to give challengers of any skill level some chance at becoming champion. Gyms and elite four aren't designed to smack them to the ground and kick them while they're down. You guys are volunteering to basically be underpowered and always at a disadvantage no matter the situation. 

I realize legendaries don't give the biggest advantage in the world, and things greatly vary based on a bunch of different variables. But when we come to any crossroads where I have to choose between giving challengers or gyms an edge, even the tiniest one - I'm going to always go with challengers. 

That said, there are some maybe wonderful prizes for the gym/elite four that kills the most trainers despite the restrictions. 



Rain's Angel said:


> so it's based on gen 5 right?
> 
> gonna take a while to come up with a team but interested in joining.



Gen 1-5 is allowed.



Sign-ups are here. :33


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

Sorry, but challenge my room, and I'm likely to kick your teeth in.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 20, 2013)

And that's fine. You guys have your own challenge to rack up the most kills. So you guys aren't handing over wins without a fight. :33


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

Hey what happens if someone gets kicked out of the tournament after losing to the same gym leader twice, but never got their rematch with the other gym leaders? If we are going for who ever wracks up the most kills, its seems like it could be completely random.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 20, 2013)

I should rephrase, I meant wins against trainers. We're counting wins, not who deals the final blow.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

Lets say a challenger loses to every gym leader once, then for the rematch they pick a random leader to rematch, they lose and the random guy now has 2 wins while everyone else has 1.

Are we not counting the rematch towards the score or what.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 20, 2013)

The rematch would count toward the score. If the gym extended a voluntary rematch and won, that would also count.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

So no equal opportunity


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 20, 2013)

I'd like to say everyone would have equal opportunities to be picked, but I'd be lying. Realistically, the person with the strongest team is not going to get that rematch - and as a result, will not get that second point. Assuming a trainer were to do a circuit with all the gyms and lose, the gym that has the easiest team for that trainer's lineup is probably going to be the one that gets picked. 

But in general, things are sort of equal. Trainers can pick whatever gym they'd like, so there's no order there to rig things in favor of whoever gets the first gym. But it's not a perfect system.


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

Its going to be in favor of who ever they had the closest match too.

How about the rematch counts as .5 point and we round down? We can also compare win/loss ratio also.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 20, 2013)

I'll let you guys discuss this one tonight and put it up to a poll sometime after. It's time to sleep. :33


----------



## TheCupOfBrew (Oct 20, 2013)

Id rematch a strong trainer. In not a champ so I have job security


----------



## Xiammes (Oct 20, 2013)

Iron Man said:


> Id rematch a strong trainer. In not a champ so I have job security



Yeah I would too, but your not everyone else.


----------



## Patchouli (Oct 20, 2013)

Just wanted to bring you guys up to speed. Registrations for trainers will be open for 2 weeks. After that, the league begins. I can't honestly say how long it will last. It could be a week or more. Or it could be 1 or 2 busy days. This isn't a job, so you're not obligated to be on here to play Pokemon all the time. If you guys have real life stuff that pops up, it's not a problem. But if at all possible, try to make some time for 2 weeks from now. We'll start on either Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. Depends on if we're seeing any new registrations during those days. 

Will keep you guys posted. :33


----------



## Naruto (Oct 20, 2013)

I'm thinking you guys probably wanna start fresh, so closing this and sticking the new one.


----------

