# Itachi vs Tobirama



## Gaytachi (Sep 9, 2016)

*Location:* Konoha
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Distance:* 150m
*Restrictions:* None


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## Sapherosth (Sep 9, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Already done many times, general consensus says Tobirama wins more times than not.




where?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2016)

This has been done before, it is usually agreed upon that Itachi wins with mid-high difficulty.
Although under these stipulations, I highly doubt Tobirama will give Itachi much trouble. No exclusive knowledge means that he gets taken out fairly early in the fight.


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## Android (Sep 9, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> where?


In almost evey single Tobirama vs Itachi thread  
------------------
OT : Tobirama wins with medium difficulty .
* Water style to counter Itachi's fire style .
* Genjutsu isn't happening against a Senju with years of killing Uchiha .
* Totska sword and Amaterasu aren't landing ever , thanks to FTG .
* Now there are many ways Tobirama can end this :
- Hiraishin Giri kills Itachi since he can't dodge it .
- Water style : water dragon bullet . 
- Water style : water serving waves .
- Tobirama can easily react and tag Itachi anytime he wants , he already tagged someone far more faster than him . And since ET is not restricted , we all know what that means , mutually multiplying explosive tags GG .
Actually , i take what i said back , this is a stomp ck

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Bonly (Sep 9, 2016)

I'd say it could go either way, either Itachi catches Tobi in a genjutsu and then lands a fatal/very damaging blow afterwords(assuming the Genjutsu itself isn't the fatal blow) or Tobi manages to tag Itachi and eventually finish him off thanks to Hiraishin


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## Serene Grace (Sep 9, 2016)

Lol, Tobirama takes this.

Counters genjutsu with his amazing sensing ability allowing him to basically fight with his eyes closed and he literally grew up fighting uchiha, he's aware of genjutsu gg


 Susanoo and toskua blade are useless, against Tobirama who reacted to juudara. Toskua blades speed feats are not that impressive, there's no way he'll be able to even land a hit of Tobirama

 Amatersu is rendered useless due to FTG and Tobirama's amazing reflexes and reaction time

 He counters Itachi's Fireball, with his water style

 On the offensive he ends it with Hiraishingiri

 Lol Tobirama is sooo underrated, its actually sad

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 4


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## Seekingsoul (Sep 10, 2016)

*hbcaptain: *"_...general consensus says Tobirama wins more times than not._"

*Grimmjowsensei: *"_...it is usually agreed upon that Itachi wins with mid-high difficulty._

*Me: *

Reactions: Like 8 | Funny 2


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## Ashi (Sep 10, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> This has been done before, it is usually agreed upon that Itachi wins with mid-high difficulty.




Itachi fans must have their own battledome on the deep web

Reactions: Like 9


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## Ashi (Sep 10, 2016)

Ava said:


> another thread where itachi rapes
> 
> this is the loser who lost to ginakaku and his brother



Yes we know Itachi's plan wouldve negged them both

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Sapherosth (Sep 10, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> In almost evey single Tobirama vs Itachi thread
> ------------------
> OT : Tobirama wins with medium difficulty .
> * Water style to counter Itachi's fire style .
> ...






V1 Susano counters all those things you've said above. Did you even read what you wrote? 

Genjutsu IS happening....How many people did Itachi catch in a genjutsu even when they have knowledge?    Finger genjutsu? 


FTG needs to be spread out via Kunai's and tags, so it can be anticipated. If Tobirama wants to land something, he has to be in CQC which is dangerous because of Crow clones and explosion clones. 

Itachi has already tagged and feinted a superior sensor and stronger shinobi (Kabuto), so Tobirama isn't going to be a problem. (Using your logic).

Itachi has also dodged and avoided a superior taijutsu user (Killer Bee 8 sword play), so Tobirama's QCQ isn't doing shit. 

Itachi has also defended against attacks far more powerful than anything Tobirama has dished out. He has also shown faster reactions than EMS Sasuke who kept up with BM Naruto (who's a better sensor/stronger Shinobi than Tobirama) and DEFEATED Juubito. 

Honestly, using your own logic against you is hilarious.

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## UchihaX28 (Sep 10, 2016)

Ava said:


> another thread where itachi rapes
> 
> this is the loser who lost to ginakaku and his brother



 To be fair, things are subjected to change, so while Tobirama may have originally not been anything special, his War Arc feats and DB4 Entry suggests otherwise. Every manga is bound to have some inconsistencies and Naruto has a few obvious ones as well such as Hiruzen being the strongest of Hokages, Gamabunta having never cooperated with Jiraiya before (even though the battle of the Sannins literally shows them fighting with perfect synergy), and P1 establishing how only Jiraiya, Minato, and Naruto can use Rasengan yet Kakashi whips it out in P2. 

 It's rather clear that Kishimoto changed his mind on how he wanted to depict Tobirama and he's already shown how he's changed his mind at least a couple of times during the series. There's absolutely no issue with just flat-out ignoring what came before it, knowing full well that Kishimoto's intentions likely changed as the manga continued.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## A Optimistic (Sep 10, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> To be fair, things are subjected to change, so while Tobirama may have originally not been anything special, his War Arc feats and DB4 Entry suggests otherwise. Every manga is bound to have some inconsistencies and Naruto has a few obvious ones as well such as Hiruzen being the strongest of Hokages, Gamabunta having never cooperated with Jiraiya before (even though the battle of the Sannins literally shows them fighting with perfect synergy), and P1 establishing how only Jiraiya, Minato, and Naruto can use Rasengan yet Kakashi whips it out in P2.
> 
> It's rather clear that Kishimoto changed his mind on how he wanted to depict Tobirama and he's already shown how he's changed his mind at least a couple of times during the series. There's absolutely no issue with just flat-out ignoring what came before it, knowing full well that Kishimoto's intentions likely changed as the manga continued.


What were his data book entries?


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 10, 2016)

Ava said:


> What were his data book entries?





It's more of the fact that the Databook emphasizes his ninjutsu and sensory prowess and also hypes up his Flying Thunder God Slash as it even managed to catch the 2nd strongest MS user during his era off-guard. I don't necessarily believe losing to Kin and Gin was a reflection of Tobirama's accomplishments established in the Databook.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 10, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> It's more of the fact that the Databook emphasizes his ninjutsu and sensory prowess and also hypes up his Flying Thunder God Slash as it even managed to catch the 2nd strongest MS user during his era off-guard. I don't necessarily believe losing to Kin and Gin was a reflection of Tobirama's accomplishments established in the Databook.




I am pretty sure Tobirama wasn't killed by Kin and Gin...He was killed by a squad of 20 elite nins from the cloud village.


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## A Optimistic (Sep 10, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> It's more of the fact that the Databook emphasizes his ninjutsu and sensory prowess and also hypes up his Flying Thunder God Slash as it even managed to catch the 2nd strongest MS user during his era off-guard. I don't necessarily believe losing to Kin and Gin was a reflection of Tobirama's accomplishments established in the Databook.



2nd strongest? easy to say when there were only 2 MS fighters in that era

I get what you're saying but I don't see why Itachi can't do what Madara did to him tbh.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 10, 2016)

Ava said:


> 2nd strongest? easy to say when there were only 2 MS fighters in that era
> 
> I get what you're saying but I don't see why Itachi can't do what Madara did to him tbh.



 That's fine. If you understand what I'm saying, then that's all that matters to me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 10, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I am pretty sure Tobirama wasn't killed by Kin and Gin...He was killed by a squad of 20 elite nins from the cloud village.



 People merely use the, "Kin & Gin beat him half-to-death" argument and I was addressing why that's an unjustifiable argument.


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## A Optimistic (Sep 10, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> That's fine. If you understand what I'm saying, then that's all that matters to me.


so whos stronger between the 2nd and the 4th hokage

im going to assume the 3rd is weaker than both of them

1,4,2,3,5

in that order of strength im assuming?


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 10, 2016)

Ava said:


> so whos stronger between the 2nd and the 4th hokage
> 
> im going to assume the 3rd is weaker than both of them
> 
> ...



 I genuinely believe that the 2nd Hokage is much stronger than the 4th Hokage, but I'd rather save that for another discussion. I'm not exactly sure where Hiruzen stands, but from how both were portrayed in P1, Minato's at least Old Hiruzen's superior. Prime Hiruzen is debatable.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## A Optimistic (Sep 10, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I genuinely believe that the 2nd Hokage is much stronger than the 4th Hokage, but I'd rather save that for another discussion. I'm not exactly sure where Hiruzen stands, but from how both were portrayed in P1, Minato's at least Old Hiruzen's superior. Prime Hiruzen is debatable.


Well as long as Tsunade is at the bottom I don't mind, never been so disappointed in a kage level fighter.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 10, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> People merely use the, "Kin & Gin beat him half-to-death" argument and I was addressing why that's an unjustifiable argument.





It was an ambush as well I believe....lmao.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Lol, Tobirama takes this.
> 
> Counters genjutsu with his amazing sensing ability allowing him to basically fight with his eyes closed



Lol, unsubstantiated pure horseshit.

No one can fight with their eyes closed if they haven't trained for it. Try standing on one foot with your eyes closed. It is alot harder than doing with your eyes open because without spatial awareness you can't do shit.

In before "b-but kabuto."
Kabuto is on a completely different level in terms of sensing, and he had all the snake enchancements which allowed him to sense temperature, smell etc.

Tobirama either gets oneshot by Tsukiyomi(which he has no knowledge of) or he gets taken off guard by finger or crow genjutsu(again unconventional methods only Itachi employ) and gets killed by a follow up.


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## Android (Sep 10, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> V1 Susano counters all those things you've said above. Did you even read what you wrote?


How long can Itachi keep his Susanoo active again?? What was the longest time he used it on panel ?? Thought so .


Sapherosth said:


> Genjutsu IS happening....How many people did Itachi catch in a genjutsu even when they have knowledge? Finger genjutsu?


How many Sharingan , Mangekyou Sharingan useres did Tobirama battled ?? 
How many FTG user/ Senju, did Itachi battled in his life ??? 
And lmao @ finger genjutsu , a Kai breaks that shit with utter ease , but that isn't needed since Genjutsu isn't happening here . 


Sapherosth said:


> FTG needs to be spread out via Kunai's and tags, so it can be anticipated. If Tobirama wants to land something, he has to be in CQC which is dangerous because of Crow clones and explosion clones.


And Tobirama has shadow clones that can use FTG and he can also he can use FTG seals on weapons .
He's far faster and has better reaction feats . 


Sapherosth said:


> Itachi has already tagged and feinted a superior sensor and stronger shinobi (Kabuto), so Tobirama isn't going to be a problem. (Using your logic).


Tobirama >> Kabuto in terms of reaction speed , striking speed , he tagged JJ Obito and placed his tags on him before he know what happened . So Itachi is gonna be like a walk in the park .


Sapherosth said:


> Itachi has also dodged and avoided a superior taijutsu user (Killer Bee 8 sword play), so Tobirama's QCQ isn't doing shit.


See above ^^


Sapherosth said:


> Itachi has also defended against attacks far more powerful than anything Tobirama has dished out.


The strongest attack Itachi has ever " defended " against was Kirin , but he almost got killed , GKF kills him easily when Tobirama tags him .
He also faced CT , but he only stood a chance because of the extra TBB and FRS .


Sapherosth said:


> He has also shown faster reactions than EMS Sasuke who kept up with BM Naruto (who's a better sensor/stronger Shinobi than Tobirama) and DEFEATED Juubito.


Lol no , that was early EMS Sasuke who was still getting used to his EMS , and that was the first time he used it in an actual fight . Also don't forget Itachi had to be saved by Sasuke in that fight .
Sasuke was still getting used to his EMS even when he was fighting against Obito , he said that himself . So no , your point holds no water . Since , Juubito's fight Sasuke >>> Kabuto's fight Sasuke = more or less Itachi .


Sapherosth said:


> Honestly, using your own logic against you is hilarious.


Pffff , please kid ....

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Veracity (Sep 10, 2016)

It's pretty evident that Tobirama is above Itachi.  I thought that was obvious when he was outplaying KCM Minato at points and laying hands on god tiers.

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## Serene Grace (Sep 10, 2016)

Tobirama literally grew up fighting and he's probably one of the smartest characters in the show, do you really think all those years he wouldn't have got knowledge on the sharingan?

Alright even though Tobirama was confirmed to be one of the best sensors, he hasn't shown to be able to fight with his eyes closed so i'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Tsyukomi gets avoided, due to the fact that Tobirama is aware of the sharingan's abilities and has already bodied someone who had MS. Lmao dude, my baby brother has more feats then finger crow genjutsu, and this so called "finger genjutsu", is seen as trash in the face of a guy as strong and as smart as Tobirama

I took in your avatar, lol i guess its obvious where your love is.

Reactions: Like 5 | Useful 1 | Dislike 1


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 10, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> It was an ambush as well I believe....lmao.



This is true, but it doesn't stop guys like @Hussain from nerfing Tobirama because of it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 10, 2016)

How i see it the winner depends on if tobirama can set up FTG around the field or not. if itachi stops him from setting up FTG tobirama loses as that's going to be his only way of dodging itachis attacks. Genjutsu is not GG tobirama in my opinion is the smartest in the manga and knows how to fight uchiha. im aware itachi has genjutsu'd literally everyone hes faced but tobirama is different from the rest. finger genjutsu wont work as tobiramas chakra is far more powerful than itachi's and hes a sensor that uses clones. his clones bail him out of genjutsu and teleport him to safety. Itachi can deflect every attack coming at him but he can only do it for so long, after awhile hes going to run out a chakra and be vulnerable to attack. 10+ tobiramas setting up FTG and teleporting around the field will eventually slice itachi in half with a severing water wave.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Tobirama literally grew up fighting and he's probably one of the smartest characters in the show, do you really think all those years he wouldn't have got knowledge on the sharingan?
> 
> Alright even thought Tobirama was confirmed to be one of the best sensors, he hasn't shown to be able to fight with his eyes closed so i'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> ...



Welcome to the forums.
But you need to add substance to your posts to carry on a debate.

Also refrain for shitty remarks like "oh you have this in your avatar, so you must be that." Ad hominem only hurts your own arguments and credbility.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1 | Dislike 2


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 10, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> It was an ambush as well I believe....lmao.


it wasn't an ambush exactly. He and his squad of 6 younger shinobi were being tracked by a 20 man squad believed to be the Kinkaku unit. He acted as a lure so that the other 6 could escape. And was "driven to the brink of death" (according to the story. But according to the databook he was killed. I don't read the databooks, because I've heard numerous times that it contradicts the story at many points). As I've said before, I'd love to see stories about him and Hashirama, as they both obviously died young, but it's never explained how exactly (which is especially curious for Hashirama, who was the strongest shinobi ever). 

As far as this fight itself, it's hard to compare shinobi from different eras. Though it seems Tobirama's generation was generally stronger. Plus Tobirama literally was raised and lived most of his life battling against the Uchiha. Against Izuna primarily. Who was the 2nd strongest, and possessed the Mangekyo Sharingan. As Tobirama was the 2nd strongest among the Senjuu. He possessed incredibly strong chakra, being able to perform powerful water style jutsu where there was no water. He also created the Flying Raijin, Flying Raijin Slice, Infinite Darkness, Edo Tensei, Multi Shadow Clone jutsus. Itachi was stated to have Hokage level intelligence as a child by Hiruzen. He also had the Mangekyo Sharingan. His genjutsu was the best in the clan after Shisui died. And he even had the crow that possessed the Kotoamatsukami that he ended up giving to Naruto just before he died. And by Itachi's time, Minato had improved the Flying Raijin, Orochimaru the Edo Tensei, Naruto the Multi Shadow Clone, and there are probably some I'm forgetting. 

I don't think it would be an easy fight by any means. It also depends on at what point in the story it took place. If it was at like the Sasuke/Itachi fight, it would have been harder for Itachi. Because his MS powers could all only be used short-term. Like, his eyes were wiped out after going to Konoha w/ Kisame in pt 1. And I think he used Tsukuyomi twice and Amaterasu just the once. Against Sasuke, he used Tsukuyomi once, Amaterasu a bunch and Susanoo for a minute or 2. But by the end of the story, Kakashi was able to summon the perfect flying Susanoo with no difficulty, and use Kamui Shuriken against Kaguya and Kamui on himself to let her ash bones pass through all at the same time. Which would have been unfathomable, especially earlier in the story when Kakashi couldn't move for days after using just Kamui a couple times. Not only that, but Itachi knew both the Izanagi and Izanami. I think in ordr for Tobirama to win, he'd either have to get Itachi almost immediately with the Flying Raijin Slice, without giving Itachi the opportunity to activate the Izanagi or Susanoo. If Itachi is able to use the Izanagi, he would win. If he's able to use the Susanoo, Tobirama would have to basically use Flying Raijin to bounce around avoiding his attacks and hope it fades quickly. But Itachi would be invincible with it on and one strike with the Totsuka Blade would seal him. Or one hit with the Yasaka Beads is also likely to take him out. But if Itachi exhausts his power using Susanoo and Tobirama is able to avoid the attacks, the advantage shifts back to Tobirama. With the number and strength of the Uchiha he's already fought, I don't think Tsukuyomi would be a factor. Itachi is extremely fast with his signs, but I doubt he could weave Izanagi before being hit by Flying Raijin Slice. But if he does pull Izanagi off, he steals the victory. Honestly, I see this as being one of the best matchups...

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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 10, 2016)

Same general tier however I place Tobirama slightly ahead of Itachi

Tobirama's entire arsenal is catered/created to fighting the Uchiha. Everything Itachi has Tobirama has a counter for.
His vast knowledge and experience of fighting the Uchiha clan his entire life is just icing on the cake. While Minato may be the superior shinobi I always felt that Tobirama would give Itachi more trouble thanks to his vast knowledge of abiltites and history on the uchiha

Tobirama eventually tags Itachi with Hiraishin or simply outlasts until Itachi cant sustain susuanoo anymore 

Plus I have said I picture Izuna fighitng more like Itachi cause Sasuke fights more like Madara


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2016)

Arguing that Tobirama will defeat Itachi based on his victory over Izuna is like arguing that Itachi would defeat Obito, Madara and Sasuke simultaneously because he was able to taijutsu blitz 3 Uchiha fodder with 3 tomoe sharingan.



Complete_Ownage said:


> Plus I have said I picture Izuna fighitng more like Itachi cause Sasuke fights more like Madara



Not only thats pure conjecture, but it also doesn't mean anything even if it was true.

Madara also implied that Tobirama ambushed Izuna, under unknown circumstances.


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 11, 2016)

> Grimmjowsensei said:
> 
> 
> > Not only thats pure conjecture, but it also doesn't mean anything even if it was true.
> ...


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## ARGUS (Sep 11, 2016)

Edo Tobirama = Edo Itachi > Tobirama > sick Itachi


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## The_Conqueror (Sep 11, 2016)

Tobirama>Edo version of tobirama. I  remember Madara saying sth about why the senju brothers couldnot bring out their full power.

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## Parallaxis (Sep 11, 2016)

Tobirama wins mid-high diff. He can counter Itachi's fireball with his Suiton jutsus. He can simply outlast Susanoo with FTG and avoid Totsuka. He could also end up tagging Itachi, which is very probable since he was able to do so on a much faster Juubito.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 11, 2016)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Tobirama & Hashirama were familiar with Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Kagatsuchi so Madara, Izuna or some other MS users had those techniques back then



Tobirama implied that he has seen enton before and he knows Susano'O through Madara, but there is absolutely no evidence that he knows anything about Tsukiyomi.
Itachi is the only Tsukiyomi user we've seen or heard of so far.

There is also no need to assume that he knows anything other than generic sharingan genjutsu, so the unorthodox methods Itachi uses to emply genjutsu will catch him offguard for sure.



> Where was is stated that Tobirama ambushed Izuna?


I didn't say "stated", I said "implied."

It was mentioned when Madara off paneled Tobirama and was talking down to him.

[2]

Madara was talking about Tobirama and he said "capitalizing on the moment when your opponent thinks he has won... You did that quite often if the memory serves me right."


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## t0xeus (Sep 11, 2016)

No knowledge on Hiraishingiri, neg-diff for Tobirama.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 11, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Tobirama literally grew up fighting and he's probably one of the smartest characters in the show, do you really think all those years he wouldn't have got knowledge on the sharingan?
> 
> Alright even thought Tobirama was confirmed to be one of the best sensors, he hasn't shown to be able to fight with his eyes closed so i'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> ...




Being aware of something and dealing with it is an entirely different story.

It's a really poor argument to be honest.

Just because Tobirama."bodied" someone with an MS doesn't mean he's going to beat Itachi

We've seen how MS users can vary in strength and skill, plus we have zero information on the circumstances of the fight. Izuna might have been ganged up on for all we know, and Tobirama landed the killing blow after Izuna was exhausted.


Oh yes.... Oro had shitloads of knowledge on the sharingan but still got raped by it.




Oh yeah...Itachi also defeated a lot of Uchiha as well, so he definitely doesn't lose to Tobirama in that department. Lol.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 12, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> No knowledge on Hiraishingiri, neg-diff for Tobirama.


Not sure about that, Minato studied Tobirama's jutsu as did Orochimaru, there were clearly records on his arsenal left behind.

Itachi definitely knew about Minato, he was his Hokage during his early training and study and Minato won a war because of the technique, so he probably knows about FTG seeing as he knew about Sage Mode and Edo Tensei- techniques just as rare yet not quite as glorified- the queston is whether or not he knows Tobirama also had it before Minato.

What it really comes down to is how much of a book worm Itachi may have been. The way he is portrayed and some of the random rare techniques he knew about suggests he was a bit of an expert on ninja knowledge, but FTG is extremely rare and not really a topic of study seeing as the last man who used it effectively died before Itachi saw legit combat.

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## t0xeus (Sep 12, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Not sure about that, Minato studied Tobirama's jutsu as did Orochimaru, there were clearly records on his arsenal left behind.
> 
> Itachi definitely knew about Minato, he was his Hokage during his early training and study and Minato won a war because of the technique, so he probably knows about FTG seeing as he knew about Sage Mode and Edo Tensei- techniques just as rare yet not quite as glorified- the queston is whether or not he knows Tobirama also had it before Minato.
> 
> What it really comes down to is how much of a book worm Itachi may have been. The way he is portrayed and some of the random rare techniques he knew about suggests he was a bit of an expert on ninja knowledge, but FTG is extremely rare and not really a topic of study seeing as the last man who used it effectively died before Itachi saw legit combat.


Legends are legends, Itachi may know Minato possessed Flying Thunder God technique, but may not know what it actually does. Or he may have heard Minato could teleport, but he can interpret it just that Minato was fast as hell.
And him making connection that Tobirama probably had the same jutsu? Yeah, I don't see this happening. At least not in the first seconds in the fight where Tobirama throws kunai and Itachi is used to just dodging/blocking them.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 12, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Legends are legends, Itachi may know Minato possessed Flying Thunder God technique, but may not know what it actually does. Or he may have heard Minato could teleport, but he can interpret it just that Minato was fast as hell.
> And him making connection that Tobirama probably had the same jutsu? Yeah, I don't see this happening. At least not in the first seconds in the fight where Tobirama throws kunai and Itachi is used to just dodging/blocking them.



I honestly doubt that considering Hiruzen emphasized Itachi having Hokage Level Wisdom through his curiosity to discover secrets of his ancestor and possibly even techniques. He even discovered a sealing jutsu that Orochimaru himself couldn't even hope to obtain despite discovering his own Kinjutsu and also utilizing Tobirama's Kinjutsu as well. I highly doubt Itachi was simply aware of it yet didn't comprehend what Hiraishin does. It seems totally out-of-character for Itachi.

It's possible that Itachi wouldn't be aware of Tobirama possessing it, but Hiraishin itself uses a specific sealing pattern, so Itachi would certainly be aware of Tobirama uses it once he recognizes the seal used.


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## t0xeus (Sep 12, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> having Hokage Level Wisdom through his curiosity to discover secrets of his ancestor and possibly even techniques.


Where was the underlined thing mentioned? I just remember him being praised for hokage lvl wisdom.



> He even discovered a sealing jutsu that Orochimaru himself couldn't even hope to obtain despite discovering his own Kinjutsu and also utilizing Tobirama's Kinjutsu as well.


He found it, we don't know how and if he even aimed to find it.



> I highly doubt Itachi was simply aware of it yet didn't comprehend what Hiraishin does. It seems totally out-of-character for Itachi.


Ok agree.



> It's possible that Itachi wouldn't be aware of Tobirama possessing it, but Hiraishin itself uses a specific sealing pattern, so Itachi would certainly be aware of Tobirama uses it once he recognizes the seal used.


It looks just like a normal seal, there are tons of seal types in the Naruverse. And Tobirama uses unique seal as well, and we don't know if the seal is made of chakra so Itachi may not be even able to see it on Kunai with his Sharingan.

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## The All Unknowing (Sep 12, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Legends are legends, Itachi may know Minato possessed Flying Thunder God technique, but may not know what it actually does. Or he may have heard Minato could teleport, but he can interpret it just that Minato was fast as hell.
> And him making connection that Tobirama probably had the same jutsu? Yeah, I don't see this happening. At least not in the first seconds in the fight where Tobirama throws kunai and Itachi is used to just dodging/blocking them.


didn't Itachi typically use his shuriken jutsu to block weapons thrown at him? In that situation, Tobirama's marked kunai wouldn't reach him. Or the Susanoo would block it as well

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## Serene Grace (Sep 17, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Welcome to the forums.
> But you need to add substance to your posts to carry on a debate.
> 
> Also refrain for shitty remarks like "oh you have this in your avatar, so you must be that." Ad hominem only hurts your own arguments and credbility.


Nice reply ......oh wait there isn't one. It's hilarious how you didn't debunk a single thing I said

less of ad hominem and more common sense, I've done my research. It's clear you have a bias towards arguing on Itachi and the fact that he's your avatar puts the icing on the cake

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## The All Unknowing (Sep 18, 2016)

professor83 said:


> Tobirama>Edo version of tobirama. I  remember Madara saying sth about why the senju brothers couldnot bring out their full power.


you're right. Way to pick up on a momentary detail. I had totally forgotten about that



emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Nice reply oh wait, there isn't one. It's hilarious how you didn't debunk a single thing a said
> 
> less of ad hominem and more common sense, I've done my research.* It's clear you have a bias towards arguing on Itachi and the fact that he's your avatar puts the icing on the cake*


not necessarily. I mean, he may very well be biased toward Itachi. But his avatar doesn't really prove that. I've stated before that Tobirama is my favorite character. But I think Itachi would take this fight. So just because Itachi may be his favorite Character, doesn't necessarily mean he be unfairly biased in his favor in this thread...


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## Sapherosth (Sep 18, 2016)

I'm pretty sure Itachi has knowledge on FTG. If fodders from different villages knew about it, I doubt someone with Hokage wisdom and loves learning about the ancestors wouldn't know.


With the addition to the fact that Itachi regular trained with another strong TELEPORTATION user (Shisui), I find it highly unlikely that Itachi will  be dumbfounded and has no answer for FTG.


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 18, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I'm pretty sure Itachi has knowledge on FTG. If fodders from different villages knew about it, I doubt someone with Hokage wisdom and loves learning about the ancestors wouldn't know.
> 
> 
> With the addition to the fact that Itachi regular trained with another strong TELEPORTATION user (Shisui), I find it highly unlikely that Itachi will  be dumbfounded and has no answer for FTG.


I know it was a filler episode, but they showed Shisui's teleportation jutsu to be far different than Minato's. Shisui's was incredibly unique. I REALLY liked it


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## Icegaze (Sep 18, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I'm pretty sure Itachi has knowledge on FTG. If fodders from different villages knew about it, I doubt someone with Hokage wisdom and loves learning about the ancestors wouldn't know.
> 
> 
> With the addition to the fact that Itachi regular trained with another strong TELEPORTATION user (Shisui), I find it highly unlikely that Itachi will  be dumbfounded and has no answer for FTG.



Shisui was using shunshin 
Shusui shunshin <<< RCM enhanced shunshin which <<< hirashin 

Though i get what you mean Itachi isn't defenceless against hirashin 
Believing otherwise is silly 

However I am also against tobirama being casually caught in genjutsu or something like that 

FTg does provide good counters to Itachi arsenal 

High diff either side


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## Sapherosth (Sep 18, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Shisui was using shunshin
> Shusui shunshin <<< RCM enhanced shunshin which <<< hirashin
> 
> Though i get what you mean Itachi isn't defenceless against hirashin
> ...




I don't think it's going to be easy either. It's a battle of wits for these two and whoever catches the other off guard first wins. 

The whole argument wasn't about shisui's shunshin being as good as FTG, but to make a point that Itachi must have dealt/sparred with something similar from the strongest Uchiha at the time.

This battle isn't a battle of pure power or Sharingan vs FTG, but rather a battle of wits and deception to create an opening to deal the fatal blow. Obviously I think Itachi is going to win in this regard, but it isn't going to be easy.


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## Icegaze (Sep 18, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I don't think it's going to be easy either. It's a battle of wits for these two and whoever catches the other off guard first wins.
> 
> The whole argument wasn't about shisui's shunshin being as good as FTG, but to make a point that Itachi must have dealt/sparred with something similar from the strongest Uchiha at the time.
> 
> This battle isn't a battle of pure power or Sharingan vs FTG, but rather a battle of wits and deception to create an opening to deal the fatal blow. Obviously I think Itachi is going to win in this regard, but it isn't going to be easy.



Fair enough 
Money on tobirama since exhaustion will never come into play 
His techniques don't put any strain on him 
Unlike MS techniques


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## Serene Grace (Sep 18, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> you're right. Way to pick up on a momentary detail. I had totally forgotten about that
> 
> not necessarily. I mean, he may very well be biased toward Itachi. But his avatar doesn't really prove that. I've stated before that Tobirama is my favorite character. But I think Itachi would take this fight. So just because Itachi may be his favorite Character, doesn't necessarily mean he be unfairly biased in his favor in this thread...


I only made the statement about his avatar, because i was openly aware of his strong bias( already seen a pleatora of threads where he ridiculously agrees on Itachi's behalf). I could honestly care less about his avatar

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## Arles Celes (Sep 18, 2016)

This isn't edo Itachi right?

So exhaustion on Itachi's side will eventually tip the battle in Tobirama's favor eventually.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 18, 2016)

How much stamina does Tobirama even have to say he outlasts? 

How is Tobirama going to force Itachi to use his chakra taxing techs like Ama, Tsu and Susano ? 

Itachi can literally keep all the marked Kunai's at bay and avoid it coming anywhere close to him and out play Tobirama in Cqc via bunshin feints or retreat like he did against Bees acrobat to avoid being tagged. 

I've literally never seen a battle in the manga where 2 ninjas of similar level ends a fight where 1 person is completely drained while the other person has a lot of chakra left. They'll both be equally drained.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 18, 2016)

Yeah outlasting MS users argument is pretty lame. Never happened in the manga so far.

The only instances of someone outlasting the other would probably happen under specific circumstances like if one of the parties skillset was completely ineffective against the other, or if there is a skill gap between them.

In this case Tobirama isn't outlasting shit.


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## Icegaze (Sep 18, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> How much stamina does Tobirama even have to say he outlasts?
> 
> How is Tobirama going to force Itachi to use his chakra taxing techs like Ama, Tsu and Susano ?
> 
> ...


 
More than Itachi certainly being able to wrap 2 giant size objects and still have enough stamina to say he could take a juubi BD. Horribly exceeds Itachi stamina 

Even if we assume they had the same one can Carry on his attacks with ZERO back lash while Itachi MS Jutsu has back lash as shown when used by a healthy sasuke 


 GFK would require susanoo 
Defending from hirashin attacks would as well 
Avoiding thanks to hirashin Itachi base arsenal would also prompt Itachi to use quicker attacks 

Bunshin feints which means tobirama can link his chakra to Itachi 's via the clone 

Now while that doesn't mean he can auto wrap to Itachi from there it means anything linked to his chakra can be wrapped to a mark of his choosing as he explained 

And showed 

There also hasn't been any fight where 1 has the benefit of non taxing Jutsu while the other doesn't 

Fights where people have been drained equally 

Madara vs hashirama : EMs no back lash on Ms Jutsu 
Sasuke vs naruto : Sage of 6 path chakra ( no back lash on ms Jutsu )


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## Icegaze (Sep 18, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah outlasting MS users argument is pretty lame. Never happened in the manga so far.
> 
> The only instances of someone outlasting the other would probably happen under specific circumstances like if one of the parties skillset was completely ineffective against the other, or if there is a skill gap between them.
> 
> In this case Tobirama isn't outlasting shit.


No ms user has also fought anyone who had techniques which have no consequence on their chakra level 
FTg and ET are Jutsu which take no chakra at all 

The only time an Ms has fought someone to exhaustion is when they were painfully superior
Stated and shown , eg: sasuke vs Itachi


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## Android (Sep 18, 2016)

@Icagaze vs @Grimmjowsensei and @Sapherosth >>>> Madara vs Naruto and Sasuke

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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 18, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> No ms user has also fought anyone who had techniques which have no consequence on their chakra level
> FTg and ET are Jutsu which take no chakra at all



FTG should have consequences on their chakra levels. They are basically summoning themselves everytime they use that jutsu. And summoning takes chakra as we know.

Not sure why would you assume ET requires no chakra either.

Tobirama uses suitons and bunshins too and since he doesn't have marked Kunais like Minato he needs to do alot more physical work. Physical work takes directly from stamina, which is used to convert to chakra, so I'm pretty sure Tobirama will tire out too depending on the circumstances.



> The only time an Ms has fought someone to exhaustion is when they were painfully superior
> Stated and shown , eg: sasuke vs Itachi



What about Danzo vs Sasuke ?



cctr9 said:


> @Icagaze vs @Grimmjowsensei and @Sapherosth >>>> Madara vs Naruto and Sasuke



And you are sakura, watching from the sidelines and cheering.

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## Android (Sep 18, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> And you are sakura, watching from the sidelines and cheering.


 
Nop , i'm Kakashi waiting for my DMS

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## Icegaze (Sep 18, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> FTG should have consequences on their chakra levels. They are basically summoning themselves everytime they use that jutsu. And summoning takes chakra as we know.



and yet it is spammed to kill even fodder, thus the chakra level impact is dam near minimal. its overly spammed and abused, wouldnt compare that to using MS for example. 



> Not sure why would you assume ET requires no chakra either.


kabuto said its a jutsu with no impact on chakra level and no risk.  its painly stated. common!! read the non itachi parts of the manga please



> Tobirama uses suitons and bunshins too and since he doesn't have marked Kunais like Minato he needs to do alot more physical work. Physical work takes directly from stamina, which is used to convert to chakra, so I'm pretty sure Tobirama will tire out too depending on the circumstances.



from a stamina perspective he also has more stamina than itachi to boot. we have seen him raising his chakra is enough to actually affect his surroundings. 





> What about Danzo vs Sasuke ?



you mean when both were using sharingan based jutsu with consequences on chakra level as karin pointed out? . wouldnt compare izanagi which can only be spammed via magic hashirama cells to hirashin which dam near even fodder can use if they stand in a circle. sorry but chakra consumption wise hirashin is dam near like basic sharingan genjutsu, no consequence on chakra level 





> And you are sakura, watching from the sidelines and cheering.

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## Sapherosth (Sep 18, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> More than Itachi certainly being able to wrap 2 giant size objects and still have enough stamina to say he could take a juubi BD. Horribly exceeds Itachi stamina
> 
> Even if we assume they had the same one can Carry on his attacks with ZERO back lash while Itachi MS Jutsu has back lash as shown when used by a healthy sasuke
> 
> ...




What about MS Sasuke vs A? 

The fight was about to end before stamina was even going to be a factor.

Sasuke vs Killer Bee..  Sasuke actually managed to force Killer Bee to expend a large amount of chakra to the point he couldn't turn into Bijuu mode for a while. 


Sasuke vs Danzo... Where Danzo has more chakra via Hashi cells still manages to become just as exhausted as Sasuke despite Sasuke using taxing techniques.


MS side effects are there, but it's bearable. We've seen an exhausted half dead and blind Itachi use V4 Susano for quite a while. I would imagine that a healthy version who only use ribcage Susano will be able to keep it up much longer. (Not that he needs to use it constantly any way). 

One way or another, MS users has always managed to end the fight before it turns into a stamina game or they go all out forcing the opponent to expend so much chakra that they're exhausted as well. 

There's literally never been a fight in the manga where one person is extremely exhausted and another one still having tons of chakra left (unless there's a big difference in strength ).

How else did MS Madara and Izuna compete with Hashirama and Tobirama multiple times?


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## Icegaze (Sep 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> What about MS Sasuke vs A?
> 
> The fight was about to end before stamina was even going to be a factor.
> 
> ...



Look at A condition vs sasuke condition after their fight . Despite A suffering more significant injuries he seems a lot less worn out than sasuke does 

Danzo was using sharingan techniques which on panel karin said drained him and he was saving chakra 

We have then seen Kakashi fall all by himself from MS over use or obito basically almost passing out from MS over use 

Am not saying itachi uses Ms once and dies but the point is he needs a reason or be pushed to use his MS Jutsu based on the double edge nature of it 

None of tobirama Jutsu have that restriction , he can spam hirashin and be just fine after

However we both agree Amaterasu isn't being spammed for example


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 19, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> and yet it is spammed to kill even fodder, thus the chakra level impact is dam near minimal. its overly spammed and abused, wouldnt compare that to using MS for example.


Minato doesn't have anything other than Hiraishin though. Does that really mean anything ? 
I also never said Hiraishin is a taxing technique, it can't be too taxing because it is a technique that needs to be spammed to be effective. It is a means of mobility.
But the premise of it having no impact on chakra levels is also baseless. 



> kabuto said its a jutsu with no* impact on chakra level *and no risk.  its painly stated. common!! read the non itachi parts of the manga please



Where was the bold part stated ?



> from a stamina perspective he also has more stamina than itachi to boot. we have seen him raising his chakra is enough to actually affect his surroundings.



Everyone Itachi and Sasuke fought so far had more stamina than them maybe with the possible exception of Deidara.
Having more stamina than Itachi doesn't mean anything.

Like I said, we've never seen shinobi of similar caliber outlasting one another. The closest thing we've seen was when both of them were mutually exhausted.

For Tobirama to outlast Itachi he needs to conserve chakra while Itachi is wasting all of his own.
Which means you are assuming that Itachi will use all of his arsenal to no avail and Tobirama defends/avoids all of it while conserving chakra. That would suggest a massive skill difference between the two, like you suggested in your previous post. 
If there is a skill difference, I think it is favoring Itachi here. I just don't see him get outlasted by an inferior shinobi, even if he is by a small margin.



> you mean when both were using sharingan based jutsu with consequences on chakra level as karin pointed out? . wouldnt compare izanagi which can only be spammed via magic hashirama cells to hirashin which dam near even fodder can use if they stand in a circle. sorry but chakra consumption wise hirashin is dam near like basic sharingan genjutsu, no consequence on chakra level



Well that doesn't change the fact that A MS user has fought someone on their level, someone with more stamina to boot, to exhaustion.

And how many fights have ended in exhaustion in the manga ? If it happened before, it is extremely rare. 

I am also inclined to believe that Hiraishin is more taxing than you think based on the fact that it takes 3 fodder to use it.


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## Icegaze (Sep 19, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato doesn't have anything other than Hiraishin though. Does that really mean anything ?
> I also never said Hiraishin is a taxing technique, it can't be too taxing because it is a technique that needs to be spammed to be effective. It is a means of mobility.
> But the premise of it having no impact on chakra levels is also baseless.
> 
> ...



And I am inclined otherwise as its prediomabtly a supplementary tech with no medical risk or back lash on the user

Also considering clones can use hirashin as well , it can't be all that straineous on the original either

My point is tobirama can start and will start the fight with hirashin based on its ease of use

Itachi isn't starting any fight with MS unless pushed to do so

That's what I mean .

As for Kabuto explanation of ET please try read scan

from the same distance shown in 1) which is several mountain ranges.
Something that poses no risk to the user can't really be using all that much chakra
Kabuto summoned 30+ and didn't even express any drain from that

all in all tobirama Jutsu are less risky and more spammable

Now how many times can you imagine Itachi defending from GFK

Totsuka sealing is an option but should that fail he is in a 
right mess there

Tobirama has also seen Enton before as he comments on sasuke Enton when it's combined with naruto FRS 

The same way you won't speculate as to hashirama counter because it happened off panel is the same way j can say orochimaru loosing to Itachi was mostly off panel 
As the fight didn't end there nor was there any suggestion that it did 

I don't see how Itachi can recognise oro Jutsu from the feeling of it , if it isn't something he has faced before but that's just me , combine that with oro the biggest uchiha groupie not being surprised by susanoo or commenting on it leaves me to believe more happened there 

So my question is when has genjutsu by itself ever 1 shotted someone of similar level , like you are more than likely suggesting 

Am not seeing how fight starts but before he knows it he is caught in genjutsu and looses


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 19, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> And I am inclined otherwise as its prediomabtly a supplementary tech with no medical risk or back lash on the user
> 
> Also considering clones can use hirashin as well , it can't be all that straineous on the original either
> 
> ...



Since when spending chakra to cast a technique is considered as a risk to the user ? 
Risk is the backlash of a technique, like the risk of using Joki boi is it leaves the user in a vulnerable state. Or using MS makes you blind.

What Kabuto was saying was that the technique had no weakness or no risks, aka no backlashes. It had absolutely nothing to do with its chakra cost.
Link removed
"it must have some risk."

As you can see Itachi contests it by pointing out an obvious risk : Link removed

Please take a step back think again before you tell me to read the manga...


As for Tobirama's jutsu being less risky and more spammable. Thats true, but the aren't nearly as effective or as lethal as anything Itachi'S MS has.

The reason why MS jutsu are so taxing is because they are OHKO techniques, and they need a specific skillset or exlusive knowledge to be dealt with.

Hiraishin is way too overrated. Especially the way Tobirama implements it. He is slower overall, and he doesn't have that extra mobility because he lacks the special Kunai Minato has.
People have that misconception that Tobirama will magically avoid everything with Hiraishin. That is absolutely not true.


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## Icegaze (Sep 19, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Since when spending chakra to cast a technique is considered as a risk to the user ?
> Risk is the backlash of a technique, like the risk of using Joki boi is it leaves the user in a vulnerable state. Or using MS makes you blind.
> 
> What Kabuto was saying was that the technique had no weakness or no risks, aka no backlashes. It had absolutely nothing to do with its chakra cost.
> ...



He is slower than minato but hirashin still makes him faster than Itachi
Only 1 of them is regarded as the fastest of their era and it isn't Itachi
As for hirashin being overrated hard to believe that considering what it managed to do in the war but hey to each their own
Considering this 1 hit KO Amaterasu never managed to 1 hit KO anyone

Hirashin is a technique that can be used in a multitude of ways with again barely any chakra cost yes by itself it can't kill anyone hence its supplementary

Kamui phasing can't kill anyone either but even that is less hax than if either hirashin user can mark you . Considering what it did to juubito
And obito respectively who despite being hit and knowing he could have been marked couldn't avoid a subsequent blitz

People simply rate it on its success in the manga

When you got a Jutsu that gives you the ability to straight up troll juubi level bijiudama
Overating it becomes hard to do

And yes I am discussing a situation where the victim is marked 
Which more likely than not has always happened in the manga 
That's no different from Itachi has always been successful with genjutsu therefore he will be argument 
Hirashin user has always somehow got their mark close to their target


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## Sapherosth (Sep 19, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> He is slower than minato but hirashin still makes him faster than Itachi
> Only 1 of them is regarded as the fastest of their era and it isn't Itachi
> As for hirashin being overrated hard to believe that considering what it managed to do in the war but hey to each their own
> Considering this 1 hit KO Amaterasu never managed to 1 hit KO anyone
> ...




Judge it by success rate? Dafuq?

Bijuudama has never killed anyone noteworthy. Might as well say it's useless.

I could also argue that Amateratsu managed to land on Madara while Tobirama failed to mark or tag him.


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## Icegaze (Sep 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Judge it by success rate? Dafuq?
> 
> Bijuudama has never killed anyone noteworthy. Might as well say it's useless.
> 
> I could also argue that Amateratsu managed to land on Madara while Tobirama failed to mark or tag him.



No but it did take out Hachibi 
And killed the entire Hq alliance 
Otherwise the resulting explosion allowed naruto to remove the rods from 5 bijuu 
Also took out suigetsu etc
It's not unsuccessful can't say the same about other Jutsu 

Well you could argue that , I would say Amaterasu landed on a blind man from behind while he made no effort to move away from it and even criticised the level of Jutsu used on him 

Again I only mention such cuz apparently hirashin is overrated yet the amount of wank we get from Amaterasu easily out shines it 

Now which Jutsu has been more useful in the manga ?


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## Sapherosth (Sep 19, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> No but it did take out Hachibi
> And killed the entire Hq alliance
> Otherwise the resulting explosion allowed naruto to remove the rods from 5 bijuu
> Also took out suigetsu etc
> ...




You want me to list amateratsu success?

Toad stomach. 
Hit Hebi Sasuke.
Hit Hachibi
Hit A
Hit Danzo
Killed Ceberus, bird
Hit Nagato
Stopped Kabuto and reversed his jutsu.
Destroyed the web's that can't be cut. 
Landed in Juubito
Landed on Madara
Burned the Juubi.
Landed on Kaguya


If FTG had the same screen time like Amateratsu did, more weaknesses and counters would have been exposed. 


If we judge it's "success" on it being able to land on something then ama has it in the bag. 

Young killer Bee countered FTG quite easily.

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## Icegaze (Sep 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> You want me to list amateratsu success?
> 
> Toad stomach.
> Hit Hebi Sasuke.
> ...



so hit nagato and did nothing, amaterasu didnt hit A. He intentionally hit enton. Hit danzo and did nothing 
hit juubi and did nothing, amaterasu never landed on juubito. enton FRS did and it did nothing 
did nothing to madara, was trolled by juubi , was avoided by sasuke . So far really as an offensive jutsu it really only achieved putting cerebrus down





> If FTG had the same screen time like Amateratsu did, more weaknesses and counters would have been exposed.



well lets list hirahsin success shall we ? (PS: its a supplementary technique so it cant do damage by itself to enemies)

avoided kamui
trolled obito twice
countered bijuudama twice
countered TSB 
returned TSB
blitz juubito 
feinted juubito via hirashin swap 
avoided A casually twice
avoided quad juubitodama
saved EMS sasuke and KCM naruto from juubito. 

i could go on but from a success point of view not seeing how hirashin falls short

[/QUOTE]If we judge it's "success" on it being able to land on something then ama has it in the bag.

Young killer Bee countered FTG quite easily.[/QUOTE]

no we judge an OFFENSIVE jutsu success on its ability to put down the enemy. not its ability to land on a target. 

yes killer bee did, and FTG quite easily avoided someone faster than bee twice . see above post for its success stories

from a portrayal point of view hirashin has simply had better showings than amaterasu


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## Sapherosth (Sep 19, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> so hit nagato and did nothing, amaterasu didnt hit A. He intentionally hit enton. Hit danzo and did nothing
> hit juubi and did nothing, amaterasu never landed on juubito. enton FRS did and it did nothing
> did nothing to madara, was trolled by juubi , was avoided by sasuke . So far really as an offensive jutsu it really only achieved putting cerebrus down
> 
> ...


If we judge it's "success" on it being able to land on something then ama has it in the bag.

Young killer Bee countered FTG quite easily.[/QUOTE]

no we judge an OFFENSIVE jutsu success on its ability to put down the enemy. not its ability to land on a target.

yes killer bee did, and FTG quite easily avoided someone faster than bee twice . see above post for its success stories

from a portrayal point of view hirashin has simply had better showings than amaterasu[/QUOTE]


FTG has never put down any notable character then...well, maybe Izuna.

FTG didn't put down Obito, Kyuubi, Juubi, Juubito, Madara, Killer Bee, Juudara.

Based on that, FTG has always failed.


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## Icegaze (Sep 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> If we judge it's "success" on it being able to land on something then ama has it in the bag.
> 
> Young killer Bee countered FTG quite easily.



no we judge an OFFENSIVE jutsu success on its ability to put down the enemy. not its ability to land on a target.

yes killer bee did, and FTG quite easily avoided someone faster than bee twice . see above post for its success stories

from a portrayal point of view hirashin has simply had better showings than amaterasu[/QUOTE]


FTG has never put down any notable character then...well, maybe Izuna.

FTG didn't put down Obito, Kyuubi, Juubi, Juubito, Madara, Killer Bee, Juudara.

Based on that, FTG has always failed.[/QUOTE]

 FTG isnt an offensive technique though it cant put down anyone 
at best it can assist in putting down someone or make a person retreat like obito did 

now whats your excuse for amaterasu whose purpose is to put down enemies ?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 19, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> He is slower than minato but hirashin still makes him faster than Itachi
> Only 1 of them is regarded as the fastest of their era and it isn't Itachi
> As for hirashin being overrated hard to believe that considering what it managed to do in the war but hey to each their own
> Considering this 1 hit KO Amaterasu never managed to 1 hit KO anyone
> ...



Tobirama and Itachi never lived in the same era, Itachi not being labeled the fastest doesn't mean much in that regard. And by the same token, Tobirama being labeled as the fastest doesn't grant him any advantage over Itachi. We know for a fact that Minato is faster than Tobirama but Tobirama did most of the work against Juubito. Speed isn't everything.

Especially considering Itachi himself is no slouch when it comes to it .He has the fastest handseal speed hype, and we've seen him straight out own a perfect sage in jutsu execution, and flank a guy like B with foot speed. I highly doubt Tobirama's speed alone will accomplish anything here.

If you are going to debate Hiraishin's effectiveness after someone gets marked, then you have to debate Itachi's genjutsu effectiveness after it lands on someone.
Now I'm guessing no one here would contest that if Itachi lands the genjutsu its pretty much game over for Tobirama.

As for whether the genjutsu would land or not, I believe the likehood of Itachi landing the genjutsu(3 tomoe, Tsukiyomi, finger, crow) is higher than Tobirama marking Itachi.
Tobirama might avoid eye contact, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because he grew up fighting Uchiha, but if he has a reliable method of overcoming generic sharingan genjutsu other than avoiding eye contact, like dispelling it by the virtue of being a sensor or a different mechanism like Deidara's eye, then it is very likely that the cost of his confidence will be his life when he gets hit by Tsukiyomi. We've seen a veteran like Kakashi make that mistake, thinking his 3 tomoe sharingan would give him a reliable defense against it. And even if he is avoiding eye contact, it is very likely that he gets caught off guard by the crow genjutsu or finger genjtusu which are techniques exclusive to Itachi as far as we know.

All in all, I think Itachi has more tools to work with and the likehood of him overcoming what Tobirama will throw his way is higher than Tobirama's likehood of dealing with Itachi's arsenal.


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## Icegaze (Sep 19, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Tobirama and Itachi never lived in the same era, Itachi not being labeled the fastest doesn't mean much in that regard. And by the same token, Tobirama being labeled as the fastest doesn't grant him any advantage over Itachi. We know for a fact that Minato is faster than Tobirama but Tobirama did most of the work against Juubito. Speed isn't everything.


true but from a speed perspective he has been less impressive than tobirama has been. so suddenly speed doesnt grant an advantage? or is it just when its in regards to itachi pretty sure every A vs jiriaya match speed was your main argument. odd how speed isnt everything now, i never thought it was. speed however does provide 1 an obvious advantage whether its against itachi or not



> Especially considering Itachi himself is no slouch when it comes to it .He has the fastest handseal speed hype, and we've seen him straight out own a perfect sage in jutsu execution, and flank a guy like B with foot speed. I highly doubt Tobirama's speed alone will accomplish anything here.


 no slouch or not he is still not faster. tobirama speed alone by speed are you referring to hirashin or physical speed. 
but no i dont think tobirama speed alone will suddenly mean itachi auto looses. never claimed that



> If you are going to debate Hiraishin's effectiveness after someone gets marked, then you have to debate Itachi's genjutsu effectiveness after it lands on someone.
> Now I'm guessing no one here would contest that if Itachi lands the genjutsu its pretty much game over for Tobirama.



we can debate it itachi genjutsu effectiveness after it lands on someone. Oro got his hand cut before he could break it, killer bee breaks it. sasuke breaks it. 
well i dont see why it cant be contested. the best thing he did is hold orochimaru in place with an obvious genjutsu. Now if you mean tskuyomi then no i wont contest that



> As for whether the genjutsu would land or not, I believe the likehood of Itachi landing the genjutsu(3 tomoe, Tsukiyomi, finger, crow) is higher than Tobirama marking Itachi.



of course you do. even though this itachi always lands genjutsu its funny how he felt the need to grab kakashi to pull that off. one would think they had previously made eye contact. but hey..why not



> Tobirama might avoid eye contact, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because he grew up fighting Uchiha, but if he has a reliable method of overcoming generic sharingan genjutsu other than avoiding eye contact, like dispelling it by the virtue of being a sensor or a different mechanism like Deidara's eye, then it is very likely that the cost of his confidence will be his life when he gets hit by Tsukiyomi. We've seen a veteran like Kakashi make that mistake, thinking his 3 tomoe sharingan would give him a reliable defense against it. And even if he is avoiding eye contact, it is very likely that he gets caught off guard by the crow genjutsu or finger genjtusu which are techniques exclusive to Itachi as far as we know.



he might not, but then again with clones and hirashin not sure how itachi is making eye contact. we have seen both madara and itachi grab (A and kakashi respectively ) simply to land genjutsu. i think the issue they had there was making eye contact. and yes finger genjutsu and crow genjutsu are more likely exclusive and are things even a newb like naruto knew was genjutsu. its usefulness would be its ability to fool tobirama. unless you suggesting it can knock tobirama out



> All in all, I think Itachi has more tools to work with and the likehood of him overcoming what Tobirama will throw his way is higher than Tobirama's likehood of dealing with Itachi's arsenal.



no doubt itachi has more tools to work with. he has more shown jutsu and more battles. never suggested otherwise.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 19, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> true but from a speed perspective he has been less impressive than tobirama has been. so suddenly speed doesnt grant an advantage? or is it just when its in regards to itachi pretty sure every A vs jiriaya match speed was your main argument. odd how speed isnt everything now, i never thought it was. speed however does provide 1 an obvious advantage whether its against itachi or not


Unless there is a huge speed gap, then it will comedown to the arsenal. In this case, there is absolutely no evidence that Tobirama is physicaly faster than Itachi to the extend that it makes a difference.
And even if he was faster, then we've seen how sharingan precognition can tip the scales even in a case where there was a speed gap.



> no slouch or not he is still not faster. tobirama speed alone by speed are you referring to hirashin or physical speed.
> but no i dont think tobirama speed alone will suddenly mean itachi auto looses. never claimed that



My point is, there is no substantial speed difference here eitherway, so I don't see how that becomes an issue for anyone. Itachi has sharingan precog and handseal speed advantage and likely body speed advantage as well, while Tobirama is faster on mobility due to Hiraishin.
No one here has a speed advantage that will allow them to directly exploit their opponent. 



> we can debate it itachi genjutsu effectiveness after it lands on someone. Oro got his hand cut before he could break it, killer bee breaks it. sasuke breaks it.
> well i dont see why it cant be contested. the best thing he did is hold orochimaru in place with an obvious genjutsu. Now if you mean tskuyomi then no i wont contest that


Itachi chose to cut Orochimaru's hand. He could have gone for his head too.
The point is, he was able to keep Orochimaru in restraints long enough to be able capitalize on it.

As for B and Sasuke, they have innate counters for traditional genjutsu. It is a match up issue.
But a regular person who is caught by genjutsu will likely find himself in a vulnerable poisiton, considering B, despite dispelling almost instantly, escaped by the skin of his teeth.




> of course you do. even though this itachi always lands genjutsu its funny how he felt the need to grab kakashi to pull that off. one would think they had previously made eye contact. but hey..why not


That experience against Kakashi would allow Itachi to prevent a similar bunshin feint attempt.

Although I mentioned this because even if Tobirama avoids eye contact, he will be caught by crow genjtusu or finger genjutsu. Itachi isn't limited to 3 tomoe genjutsu only.



> he might not, but then again with clones and hirashin not sure how itachi is making eye contact. we have seen both madara and itachi grab (A and kakashi respectively ) simply to land genjutsu. i think the issue they had there was making eye contact. and yes finger genjutsu and crow genjutsu are more likely exclusive and are things even a newb like naruto knew was genjutsu. its usefulness would be its ability to fool tobirama. unless you suggesting it can knock tobirama out


The thing is, finger genjutsu is no different than sharingan genjutsu, only that the finger is used as a medium to cast it. Obviously it lacks the additional power boost from sharingan, but looking at the context of the jutsu Itachi can do anything he wants with it really.
He started out by decieving Naruto and Naruto only realized the situation when Itachi made it obvious that it was genjutsu. When the Itachi clones Naruto took out turned into his friends and Itachi started flying and shit.
He outright told Naruto that he was caught by his genjutsu when he fell for the crow genjutsu, which btw is cast through the sharingan of shisui so it should be as powerful as a regular 3 tomoe genjutsu.

And Itachi doesn't need to finish the fight with genjutsu, all the genjutsu needs to accomplish for Itachi is to create an opening like it did against Orochimaru. Tobirama doesn't have inhuman durability or regenerative abilities, if Itachi closes in and stabs him in a lethal area, then he is pretty much dead.



> no doubt itachi has more tools to work with. he has more shown jutsu and more battles. never suggested otherwise.



And based on that I'll give him better odds. If he can't succeed with one thing, then he can fall back to another and then another.
On the other Tobirama is pretty much stuck with one thing to work with. As hax as Hiraishin is, it is still a one trick pony and its effectiveness(at least offensively) relies on the Hiraishin user to completely outmanuver or outsmart his opponent, which I don't see Tobirama doing that against Itachi.


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## Icegaze (Sep 19, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Unless there is a huge speed gap, then it will comedown to the arsenal. In this case, there is absolutely no evidence that Tobirama is physicaly faster than Itachi to the extend that it makes a difference.
> And even if he was faster, then we've seen how sharingan precognition can tip the scales even in a case where there was a speed gap.


 Well being able to touch juubito mindless or not before being split is quite something wouldnt you say. We saw that same juubito casually blitz EMS sasuke 





> My point is, there is no substantial speed difference here eitherway, so I don't see how that becomes an issue for anyone. Itachi has sharingan precog and handseal speed advantage and likely body speed advantage as well, while Tobirama is faster on mobility due to Hiraishin.
> No one here has a speed advantage that will allow them to directly exploit their opponent.



tobirama would also have the advantage in hand movements, touching juubito and all . Well advantage in body speed is fairly pointless since hirashin. we know A is physically far faster than minato and yet is slower than minato due to hirashin. 



> Itachi chose to cut Orochimaru's hand. He could have gone for his head too.
> The point is, he was able to keep Orochimaru in restraints long enough to be able capitalize on it.



yes at cqc range. point is tobirama in that situation. simply moves away via hirashin, itachi could have gone for his head .we have no idea what oro skill set was then, however by part 2 he could simply spit himslef out



> As for B and Sasuke, they have innate counters for traditional genjutsu. It is a match up issue.
> But a regular person who is caught by genjutsu will likely find himself in a vulnerable poisiton, considering B, despite dispelling almost instantly, escaped by the skin of his teeth.



skin of his teeth. he blocked using acrobat quite simply 





> That experience against Kakashi would allow Itachi to prevent a similar bunshin feint attempt.



not sure i get this bit



> Although I mentioned this because even if Tobirama avoids eye contact, he will be caught by crow genjtusu or finger genjutsu. Itachi isn't limited to 3 tomoe genjutsu only.



true yet finger genjutsu best feat is what, stalling naruto with a 2 in genjutsu who isnt a sensor nor does he have good chakra control 




> The thing is, finger genjutsu is no different than sharingan genjutsu, only that the finger is used as a medium to cast it. Obviously it lacks the additional power boost from sharingan, but looking at the context of the jutsu Itachi can do anything he wants with it really.



true and what he chose to do was obvious to a newb like naruto. not sure why it would suddenly not be obvious to tobirama. 



> He started out by decieving Naruto and Naruto only realized the situation when Itachi made it obvious that it was genjutsu. When the Itachi clones Naruto took out turned into his friends and Itachi started flying and shit.



the intention was to put naruto to sleep which failed. naruto who again cant tell if his chakra is being tampered with noticed quite quickly it was genjutsu. so far the only one who hasnt noticed its genjutsu was young deidara who didnt even know what sharingan was




> He outright told Naruto that he was caught by his genjutsu when he fell for the crow genjutsu, which btw is cast through the sharingan of shisui so it should be as powerful as a regular 3 tomoe genjutsu.



this is fairly baseless, that the crow genjutsu is actually cast through shusui eye. the crow however did show a sharingan eye. not that it matters to be honest. 



> *And Itachi doesn't need to finish the fight with genjutsu, all the genjutsu needs to accomplish for Itachi is to create an opening like it did against Orochimaru*. Tobirama doesn't have inhuman durability or regenerative abilities, if Itachi closes in and stabs him in a lethal area, then he is pretty much dead.



i agree on what i put in bold. genjutsu can certainly do that. could not dispute such. tobirama however has the ultimate get me out of jail free card. think of escape, escape to safety. 





> And based on that I'll give him better odds. If he can't succeed with one thing, then he can fall back to another and then another.
> On the other Tobirama is pretty much stuck with one thing to work with. As hax as Hiraishin is, it is still a one trick pony and its effectiveness(at least offensively) relies on the Hiraishin user to completely outmanuver or outsmart his opponent, which I don't see Tobirama doing that against Itachi.



yes hirashin does require maneuvering. thats factual. No different from basic sharingan genjutsu requires a a follow up attack. which means when and how he uses it is important. use it at too far a range the enemy could break out and escape in time. use it too close to tobirama and he could leave itachi LOS by simply dropping a kunai and appearing above itachi. 

 said 1 trick can be applied in as many ways as genjutsu through out the fight

whether its a clone, a kunai, the original , a swap, a mark on the floor etc. how tobirama uses something that can really be used time and time again . however i dont think you would argue if itachi gets marked he defends himself

considering well juubito couldnt and yes he did know he was marked when naruto slammed rasengan on him. 

i think its 50/50 here dont get me wrong. just not riding this whole its itachi so he must win train


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Well being able to touch juubito mindless or not before being split is quite something wouldnt you say. We saw that same juubito casually blitz EMS sasuke


That Juubito blitzed Tobirama too : manga canon



> tobirama would also have the advantage in hand movements, touching juubito and all . Well advantage in body speed is fairly pointless since hirashin. we know A is physically far faster than minato and yet is slower than minato due to hirashin.


I highly doubt he has the advantage in hand movement. Touching Juubito in the expense of getting destroyed isn't impressive at all.
We know Itachi performed a handseal here : manga canon



> yes at cqc range. point is tobirama in that situation. simply moves away via hirashin, itachi could have gone for his head .we have no idea what oro skill set was then, however by part 2 he could simply spit himslef out


He can't do that without dispelling the illusion. There is a reason why Orochimaru's first intention was to Kai out of the genjutsu because he was paralzed. So no he wouldn't be able to spit himself out before dispelling the genjutsu.
So Tobirama can't Hiraishin out in that same situation.


> skin of his teeth. he blocked using acrobat quite simply


The shuriken were already in mid air when he dispelled it, acrobat is extremely fast, we know for a fact that Sasuke can't keep up with it with 3 tomoe but he can keep up with this : manga canon
B blocking it with acrobat just shows how fast B is and how skilled he is with swords. 
That also doesn't invalidate what I said, if hachibee was a second late he likely wouldn't be able to block it.


> not sure i get this bit


I'm referring to the part where Itachi used genjutsu on Kakashi's bunshin. 



> true yet finger genjutsu best feat is what, stalling naruto with a 2 in genjutsu who isnt a sensor nor does he have good chakra control



I never claimed that Tobirama can't dispell it, but it surely can be used as a distraction, or depending on the situation it stall Tobirama long enough for Itachi to follow up with something else.



> true and what he chose to do was obvious to a newb like naruto. not sure why it would suddenly not be obvious to tobirama.


Itachi made it obvious on purpose. It started out as an extention of the reality  : manga canon
manga canon 
Naruto realized he was being tricked here : 
manga canon manga canon
Itachi was just fucking with him.



> the intention was to put naruto to sleep which failed. naruto who again cant tell if his chakra is being tampered with noticed quite quickly it was genjutsu. so far the only one who hasnt noticed its genjutsu was young deidara who didnt even know what sharingan was


Read above, Naruto only realized because Itachi made it so.
Also while Naruto tried to resist it, Itachi labeled his attempt as "weak." Meaning Naruto was in nowhere near dispelling that genjutsu.
And lets not forget that it was the shouten Itachi who used it. It was likely weaker than the original genjutsu Itachi can use.
Kakashi knew something was off  : manga canon
"Gokakyu.. but something's been..."



> this is fairly baseless, that the crow genjutsu is actually cast through shusui eye. the crow however did show a sharingan eye. not that it matters to be honest.


The only crow Itachi has who has the sharingan as far as we know is the crow with the shisui's eye.
Regardless of whose eye it is, the crow had a sharingan implanted so it is the equivalent of sharingan genjutsu.

i





> agree on what i put in bold. genjutsu can certainly do that. could not dispute such. tobirama however has the ultimate get me out of jail free card. think of escape, escape to safety.


Not unless he dispells the genjutsu, in which case it is a matter of whether he can do it in time or not. Looking at how other people have fared against it, he likely can't. Itachi uses genjutsu from close range(5-10) so when Tobirama is caught, Itachi will be near by.



> yes hirashin does require maneuvering. thats factual. No different from basic sharingan genjutsu requires a a follow up attack. which means when and how he uses it is important. use it at too far a range the enemy could break out and escape in time. use it too close to tobirama and he could leave itachi LOS by simply dropping a kunai and appearing above itachi.
> 
> said 1 trick can be applied in as many ways as genjutsu through out the fight
> 
> ...


The only difference is, it is easier to anticipate Hiraishin because Tobirama can only teleport to certain places where the marks are.
If Itachi gets marked, his only defense would be Susano'O. 


> considering well juubito couldnt and yes he did know he was marked when naruto slammed rasengan on him.


Itachi is smarter than Juubito and alot less arrogant. Obito was confident that they couldn't hurt him, up until he realized with sage chakra they actually could. 



> i think its 50/50 here dont get me wrong. just not riding this whole its itachi so he must win train


"its Itachi so he must win".
Tell me when did I ever use that as an argument ? 
I always presented the reasoning behind my claim and always based it on manga evidence. 
If you are going to dumb down my arguments to that level, then I'll dumb down yours(which doesn't need much dumbing down to be honest). You are saying that Tobirama wins because "Hiraishin."


Anyways, I just don't see Tobirama winning here becase he lacks exclusive knowledge on Itachi's tools and thats exactly what he needs to deal with them. There are lots of things he can't reliable deal with here.
I'd still lean towards Itachi with mutual knowledge but Tobirama would be able to put up a better fight.


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## Icegaze (Sep 20, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That Juubito blitzed Tobirama too : manga canon
> 
> 
> I highly doubt he has the advantage in hand movement. Touching Juubito in the expense of getting destroyed isn't impressive at all.
> ...



Tobirama has shown better reactions in comparable  situations this is why I saw so
He gets split in half and immediately preps his counter

Itachi gets split in half by a lesser opponent compared to juubito aka Kabuto and all Itachi can do is call out to sasuke for sasuke to save him

Itachi couldn't form a counter in time there

Why can't hirashin be used or oral rebirth when caught in genjutsu when orochimaru could physically move . Am not saying hirashin will break the genjutsu don't get scared
Am saying hirashin will allow him to escape to allow him time to break the genjutsu if it is needed

Acrobat is fast true , Itachi had to jump away from it

Confident or not naruto left his LoS and he couldn't react to it

Kabuto was confident he could avoid sasuke and Itachi attacks and he did for the most part
Confidence doesn't dull reactions

So you agree if he gets marked his only defence is susanoo 
Ok did you know if tobirama touches Itachi clone he basically has linked his chakra to itachi 
Which means he can move Itachi to any mark he desires without touching Itachi 

Isn't that how the alliance escaped quad BD

I can show you the scan which explains how clones are linked to the original if you need


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Ok did you know if tobirama touches Itachi clone he basically has linked his chakra to itachi
> Which means he can move Itachi to any mark he desires without touching Itachi
> 
> Isn't that how the alliance escaped quad BD
> ...


while that was true for Minato and the Juubi, didn't Tobirama state that Minato was better than him at it? I mean that may very well still be the case. Just saying what's true for Minato isn't guaranteed true for Tobirama


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## Icegaze (Sep 20, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> while that was true for Minato and the Juubi, didn't Tobirama state that Minato was better than him at it? I mean that may very well still be the case. Just saying what's true for Minato isn't guaranteed true for Tobirama



Yes he did 
Which is why he couldn't move that many people linked to his chakra at once 
However we see on panel him moving 2 people linked to his chakra 
By hacking minato link 

So haven't Claimed anything which he hasn't done


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Yes he did
> Which is why he couldn't move that many people linked to his chakra at once
> However we see on panel him moving 2 people linked to his chakra
> By hacking minato link
> ...


but did he do it using shadow clones as a link?


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## Icegaze (Sep 20, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> but did he do it using shadow clones as a link?



 he said he could though 
Chakra link came up and he immediately mentions clones saying it's the same for clones 
Do you need the scan ?


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> he said he could though
> Chakra link came up and he immediately mentions clones saying it's the same for clones
> Do you need the scan ?


was that not in relation to Naruto's shared chakra still being present in the other shinobi despite not being visible? The only relation it has to the FTG is how they used that chakra to link Minato's chakra


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## Icegaze (Sep 20, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> was that not in relation to Naruto's shared chakra still being present in the other shinobi despite not being visible? The only relation it has to the FTG is how they used that chakra to link Minato's chakra


suppose to be be past their 50's

And a clone chakra is linked to the original
Read the scan
When Itachi uses Jutsu if a clone of his has been touched by tobirama his chakra will resonate with the clone which allows tobirama to teleport Itachi to any mark he chooses

This is why after when naruto cloak was still on 2 fodders tobirama could teleport them without coming in contact with them
Because he had linked his chakra to minato's who had linked his chakra to naruto

So the fodders having naruto cloak allowed tobirama to move them to avoid shinju branches

Clones are mentioned in the Scan above and tobirama explains to naruto the principle is the same as clones the Jutsu he invented

This further proven when minato clone hirashin the original minato to his location 
The choice of words was ill summon my original here 
Hence the clone used hirashin to bring the original to his location 
The original himself didn't use hirashin to come next to the clone 

This happened before minato got his arm ripped off


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Link removed
> 
> And a clone chakra is linked to the original
> Read the scan
> ...


oh. I get what you're saying now. I thought you were saying he could mark a shadow clone and then teleport to the original. So while I now understand what you mean, that would also mean he'd be teleporting Itachi and all of his shadow clones to the same marking?


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## Icegaze (Sep 20, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> oh. I get what you're saying now. I thought you were saying he could mark a shadow clone and then teleport to the original. So while I now understand what you mean, that would also mean he'd be teleporting Itachi and all of his shadow clones to the same marking?



Nope that would be silly
I never said marking Itachi clone means he can teleport to the original
I am saying so long as a clone which has Been touched is on the field tobirama can use that chakra link to move the original to a mark of his choosing

correct moving the original means moving the clones as well 
However Itachi never spams clones

This allows tobirama to move Itachi and which ever clone to a mark of his choosing where he could have an attack set up 

So vs trying to get ET towards Itachi for GFK he could bring Itachi to the ET and have them use GFK


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Nope that would be silly
> I never said marking Itachi clone means he can teleport to the original
> I am saying so long as a clone which has Been touched is on the field tobirama can use that chakra link to move the original to a mark of his choosing
> 
> ...


true, but 2v1 is still harder than 1v1

(and yeah... I totally misinterpreted what you meant)


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## Icegaze (Sep 20, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> true, but 2v1 is still harder than 1v1



I forgot tobirama can't use clones
Oh no wait he can though
not really 2 vs 1 is it

More to that scenario . 2 vs 1 doesn't help defend against GFK though does it


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I forgot tobirama can't use clones
> Oh no wait he can though
> not really 2 vs 1 is it
> 
> More to that scenario . 2 vs 1 doesn't help defend against GFK though does it


how's he gonna aim if Itachi uses 3 shadow clones and covers each side?


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## Icegaze (Sep 20, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> how's he gonna aim if Itachi uses 3 shadow clones and covers each side?



aim GFK. you do know what that jutsu is right...and its scale right


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## Sapherosth (Sep 20, 2016)

Not even sure why Tobirama's ability to teleport via clones is even factor when Itachi's only usage of clones are for feints. 

This means Tobirama wouldn't know it's a clone or the real one. By the time he does the clone would probably be dispersed and fulfilled it's purpose.


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## Icegaze (Sep 20, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Not even sure why Tobirama's ability to teleport via clones is even factor when Itachi's only usage of clones are for feints.
> 
> This means Tobirama wouldn't know it's a clone or the real one. By the time he does the clone would probably be dispersed and fulfilled it's purpose.



this is true. its only for feints, doesnt mean they have never been on the battlefield till defeated. case in point against sasuke, clone attacks sasuke blocks and throw a shiruken. the clone gets dispersed and is used to land tskuyomi

a similar situation could occur here is all am saying

but yes its possible tobirama wouldnt know he has been feinted. just discussed the topic is all.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Tobirama has shown better reactions in comparable  situations this is why I saw so
> He gets split in half and immediately preps his counter
> 
> Itachi gets split in half by a lesser opponent compared to juubito aka Kabuto and all Itachi can do is call out to sasuke for sasuke to save him
> ...



Those situations aren't comparable for numerous reasons.
First and foremost, Juubito pretty much walked up to Tobirama and split him in half.
Kabuto ambushed Itachi after Itachi lowered his guard deliberately, and had Itachi not called for sasuke, Kabuto would have never gotten Sasuke's sword and Itachi wouldn't be able to close the loop. You should take that into account, Sasuke's assistance was required.

Also I absolutely have no idea Tobirama was able to stay up and use jutsu when half of his body was missing. Most of the time when Edo's recieve the killing blow get get stunned for a certain amount of time, like we've seen with Sandaime or Zabuza.
Probably a blunder by Kishimoto.


> Why can't hirashin be used or oral rebirth when caught in genjutsu when orochimaru could physically move . Am not saying hirashin will break the genjutsu don't get scared
> Am saying hirashin will allow him to escape to allow him time to break the genjutsu if it is needed


Because his chakra network is invaded by his opponent. If you could mold chakra in that situation and move, there would be no need for you to dispell the genjutsu.

As for other types of genjutsu(the one he used on Deidara for example) if Tobirama doesn't instantly dispell the genjutsu then he'll end up doing things that he actually doesn't want to, like for example he'll think he teleported away with Hiraishin but he won't and get killed.



> Confident or not naruto left his LoS and he couldn't react to it
> 
> Kabuto was confident he could avoid sasuke and Itachi attacks and he did for the most part
> Confidence doesn't dull reactions


I didn't say his confidence dulled his reactions, I said he simply didn't care.
He ate a FRS/Enton combo just before that, why would he worry about anything else ?
[3]
Look at his face when he gets tagged, he is pretty stoic, no inclamation or question marks there.
They only appear when rasengan deals damage, so he wasn't surprised that they hit him but he was surprised that their attack actually worked.


> So you agree if he gets marked his only defence is susanoo
> Ok did you know if tobirama touches Itachi clone he basically has linked his chakra to itachi
> Which means he can move Itachi to any mark he desires without touching Itachi


He can't move Itachi without touching him, otherwise he wouldn't need to do this : [3]



> Isn't that how the alliance escaped quad BD


I don't remember the details, but I remember Ying and Yang Kurama both played a big role in it.
Eitherway, Tobirama can't do it as I proved above.



> I can show you the scan which explains how clones are linked to the original if you need


You don't need to, its irrelevant here.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 20, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Those situations aren't comparable for numerous reasons.
> First and foremost, Juubito pretty much walked up to Tobirama and split him in half.
> Kabuto ambushed Itachi after Itachi lowered his guard deliberately, and had Itachi not called for sasuke, Kabuto would have never gotten Sasuke's sword and Itachi wouldn't be able to close the loop. You should take that into account, Sasuke's assistance was required.



. so somehow a blitz is different from another blitz. kabuto blitz itachi he couldnt do anything. tobirama could against a faster juubito. so this whole juubito walked up to tobirama is BS. I guess maybe his walking speed is super fast, EMS sasuke couldnt do anything about it either. 

yes sasuke assistance was required read your post. being split in half had nothing to do with the loop though, seeing that it wasnt that attack that started or completed the loop




> Also I absolutely have no idea Tobirama was able to stay up and use jutsu when half of his body was missing. Most of the time when Edo's recieve the killing blow get get stunned for a certain amount of time, like we've seen with Sandaime or Zabuza.
> Probably a blunder by Kishimoto.



well tobirama did use mark a target(hence could mold chakra to use a hirashin mark, aka a jutsu when split in half) oh so now its a blunder. odd cuz am pretty sure if that was an itachi feat it suddenly wouldnt be a blunder. hashirama could also attack juubito when split in half. its funny kishi made that same blunder twice. 
perhaps just maybe itachi simply couldnt react



> Because his chakra network is invaded by his opponent. If you could mold chakra in that situation and move, there would be no need for you to dispell the genjutsu.



but isnt it molding chakra thats required to break the genjutsu and use kai. thus molding chakra is possible. perhaps movement is impeded as shown when oro struggled to move his arm to use the kai since the genjutsu was intended to restrain him



> As for other types of genjutsu(the one he used on Deidara for example) if Tobirama doesn't instantly dispell the genjutsu then he'll end up doing things that he actually doesn't want to, like for example he'll think he teleported away with Hiraishin but he won't and get killed.



as for the one used on deidara that only ever worked on deidara who had no idea what sharingan was. not the best example.




> I didn't say his confidence dulled his reactions, I said he simply didn't care.
> He ate a FRS/Enton combo just before that, why would he worry about anything else ?
> [3]
> Look at his face when he gets tagged, he is pretty stoic, no inclamation or question marks there.
> They only appear when rasengan deals damage, so he wasn't surprised that they hit him but he was surprised that their attack actually worked.



any scans which show he didnt care. considering after that he immediately prepped his defense at his back, tobirama even points out that now juubito has prepped for hirashin based attacks. 

yes he ate the enton FRS because of hirashin. why on earth wouldnt he care he is still marked considering that was the only way they were even able to get close to him and attack. its funny to say juubito didnt care to defend himself yet blocks a suiton from a fodder frog by comparison. why didnt he just ignore the attack since he is oh so confident?



> He can't move Itachi without touching him, otherwise he wouldn't need to do this : [3]



please explain how he saved 2 fodders by moving them to his mark without touching them




> I don't remember the details, but I remember Ying and Yang Kurama both played a big role in it.
> Eitherway, Tobirama can't do it as I proved above.



and yet he has moved fodders without touching them. do you need a scan? i can provide one. 




> You don't need to, its irrelevant here.



and yet it is relevant since he was shown to move people to his marks with just a chakra link. which he explained a clone is to its original.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> . so somehow a blitz is different from another blitz. kabuto blitz itachi he couldnt do anything[


Kabuto didn't blitz Itachi, he ambushed him.
We know that Itachi is perfectly capable of reacting to Kabuto running straight at him : [3]
Which is how Juubito blitzed Tobirama.



> . tobirama could against a faster juubito. so this whole juubito walked up to tobirama is BS. I guess maybe his walking speed is super fast, EMS sasuke couldnt do anything about it either.


[3]
Juubito basically ran towards him. There was no deception or ambush involved.


> yes sasuke assistance was required read your post. being split in half had nothing to do with the loop though, seeing that it wasnt that attack that started or completed the loop


Being split in half didn't happen from a blitz though.
Itachi left himself deliberately open, so that Kabuto could attack him, and so that Sasuke could assist him.
If Itachi held his own there, then there would be no reason for Sasuke to assist him.

Itachi planned the entire encounter, he knew Kabuto would try to attack him and re-write his tag(becuase he attempted to do this priorly), he knew sasuke's impulsively try to defend him(Itachi saw Sasuke impulsively throw his sword before).  The only way he could re-create the circumstances was to leave himself open.



> well tobirama did use mark a target(hence could mold chakra to use a hirashin mark, aka a jutsu when split in half) oh so now its a blunder. odd cuz am pretty sure if that was an itachi feat it suddenly wouldnt be a blunder. hashirama could also attack juubito when split in half. its funny kishi made that same blunder twice.
> perhaps just maybe itachi simply couldnt react


If Itachi or others did as well then yeah it wouldn't be a blunder. As of now, it seems like the outlier because EDO's get KO'd by lethal hits and give even the fodder sealing teams enough time to seal them.
I'm not against it though, I just can't come up with an explanation to how he did it.
Eitherway, it isn't significant, he basically suicided to touch a minddless Jubito. A feat he wouldn't be able to accomplish if he was alive.


> but isnt it molding chakra thats required to break the genjutsu and use kai. thus molding chakra is possible. perhaps movement is impeded as shown when oro struggled to move his arm to use the kai since the genjutsu was intended to restrain him



I'm not sure if Kai is molding chakra, or it is a basic process of disrupting the chakra but it surely doesn't equate using ninjutsu.
Also If Orochimaru could freely use ninjutsu(we know Oro doesn't need seals for most of his ninjutsu) then he would defend himself from Itachi's attack. The fact that he was left completely defenseless shows that his only option was to dispell the genjutsu.



> as for the one used on deidara that only ever worked on deidara who had no idea what sharingan was. not the best example.



It doesn't change anything whether you know what sharingan is or not once you are caught.
Knowing about sharingan only gives you the incentive to avoid eye contact. There is absolutely no way to tell whether it is genjutsu or not.
In Tobirama's case though, I can buy that he can figure it out because he is a sensor. The question is, how quickly he can figure it out and how quickly he can dispell it.



> any scans which show he didnt care. considering after that he immediately prepped his defense at his back, tobirama even points out that now juubito has prepped for* hirashin based attacks*.



No.

[3]
[3]

It had nothing to do with "Hiraishin based attacks."
He was worried about Hermit Mode because up until that point their attacks weren't working on him.



> yes he ate the enton FRS because of hirashin. why on earth wouldnt he care he is still marked considering that was the only way they were even able to get close to him and attack. its funny to say juubito didnt care to defend himself yet blocks a suiton from a fodder frog by comparison. why didnt he just ignore the attack since he is oh so confident?


He probably didn't want to get soaked wet.



> please explain how he saved 2 fodders by moving them to his mark without touching them
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Please do so.

As far as I know the only reason why Minato was able to move people without touching them was because of Naruto's ability to send his chakra to others. Minato doesn't have that ability, it has nothing to do with Hiraishin either.



> and yet it is relevant since he was shown to move people to his marks with just a chakra link. which he explained a clone is to its original.



Yes, chakra link is the key. It has nothing to do with Hiraishin. Naruto established the chakra link between himself and the alliance and his father.

We've seen Tobirama touch Juubito(who was already marked) to teleport him.
It would be redundant if he could just move him without touching him.


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 20, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kabuto didn't blitz Itachi, he ambushed him.
> We know that Itachi is perfectly capable of reacting to Kabuto running straight at him : [3]
> Which is how Juubito blitzed Tobirama.



maybe kabuto wasnt using shunshin there 




> [3]
> Juubito basically ran towards him. There was no deception or ambush involved.



juubito also>>>>> kabuto. so even if one is to suggest an ambush which it wasnt since kabuto was at the order corner of the room. plays possum then blitz. it still at best comparable considering like i said juubito>>>>>>kabuto



> Being split in half didn't happen from a blitz though.
> Itachi left himself deliberately open, so that Kabuto could attack him, and so that Sasuke could assist him.
> If Itachi held his own there, then there would be no reason for Sasuke to assist him.



 why would itachi need assistance if he could do without. that scene didnt help in anyway achieve izanami though



> Itachi planned the entire encounter, he knew Kabuto would try to attack him and re-write his tag(becuase he attempted to do this priorly), he knew sasuke's impulsively try to defend him(Itachi saw Sasuke impulsively throw his sword before).  The only way he could re-create the circumstances was to leave himself open.



am happy he planned the entire fight. it doesnt mean he still didnt get blitz though. am sure he didnt plan to also get caught in genjutsu. recreating those circumstances once again had nothing to do with izanami and as such was of no benefit to itachi




> If Itachi or others did as well then yeah it wouldn't be a blunder. As of now, it seems like the outlier because EDO's get KO'd by lethal hits and give even the fodder sealing teams enough time to seal them.
> *I'm not against it though, I just can't come up with an explanation to how he did it.*
> Eitherway, it isn't significant, he basically suicided to touch a minddless Jubito. A feat he wouldn't be able to accomplish if he was alive.



but others did. case in point hashirama. i agree with what i bolded. the rest sounds off. ok and edo itachi while dead couldnt accomplish anything but call out to sasuke. 




> I'm not sure if Kai is molding chakra, or it is a basic process of disrupting the chakra but it surely doesn't equate using ninjutsu.
> Also If Orochimaru could freely use ninjutsu(we know Oro doesn't need seals for most of his ninjutsu) then he would defend himself from Itachi's attack. The fact that he was left completely defenseless shows that his only option was to dispell the genjutsu.



Kai is the process of interrupting your own chakra flow to break the genjutsu. kai is taking control of one chakra, chakra is used for ninjutsu. so no reason why movement is possible, chakra molding is possible but not ninjutsu that requires no movement . Well we have no idea what that oro could do though, i mean if the battle was all that was shown on panel then oro essentially cant heal from a chopped wrist when we have in fact seen him heal from his arm ripped off. i think the fight carried on from there...oro the uchiha groupie didnt wet himself when he saw susanoo. and itachi by the feeling could tell which jutsu oro was using. I think that implies abit more than what that panel showed, for you to draw conclusions from just that





> It doesn't change anything whether you know what sharingan is or not once you are caught.
> Knowing about sharingan only gives you the incentive to avoid eye contact. There is absolutely no way to tell whether it is genjutsu or not.
> *In Tobirama's case though, I can buy that he can figure it out because he is a sensor. The question is, how quickly he can figure it out and how quickly he can dispell it.*


 if you dont know what sharingan is why would you bother urself trying to break genjutsu. if you however know what it is, you know what to look out for and what to expect. i agree with the bold again. hardly anything i bold in your posts. 



> No.
> 
> [3]
> [3]
> ...



which could only land thanks to hirashin though. naruto didnt get there by himself nor could he. the next time they attempted attacking with SM, it was still hirashin they used. 

it wasnt till CS boosted EMS sasuke and naruto attacked juubito together did they consider any other means of approaching juubito. 




> He probably didn't want to get soaked wet.



but he doesnt care when hit with rasengan. why does being wet bother someone willing to eat a chakra blast to the back






> Please do so.
> 
> As far as I know the only reason why Minato was able to move people without touching them was because of Naruto's ability to send his chakra to others. Minato doesn't have that ability, it has nothing to do with Hiraishin either.



ask and you shall receive. 
[3] first bit where he spells out what he intends to do

[3] notice the fodders with naruto chakra link which tobirama hacked through using minato chakra link

[3]
fodders moved to marking simply through chakra link




> Yes, chakra link is the key. It has nothing to do with Hiraishin. Naruto established the chakra link between himself and the alliance and his father.



see panel above. chakra link allows hirashin to be made possible. 



> We've seen Tobirama touch Juubito(who was already marked) to teleport him.
> It would be redundant if he could just move him without touching him.



i dont disagree however, there they hirashin swapped to a specific attack. in order to swap to minato location with juubito he had to ram juubito into the attack. 

its abit odd i give you that.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 20, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kabuto didn't blitz Itachi, he ambushed him.
> We know that Itachi is perfectly capable of reacting to Kabuto running straight at him : Sasuke used Genjutsu on Itachi
> Which is how Juubito blitzed Tobirama.
> 
> ...





I am 100% sure that Kai is a process of stopping your chakra flow by applying an even stronger force.


----------



## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 20, 2016)

About the Stamina issue...we know Tobirama fought Madara and Co. for around 24  hours and he was still in a good condition to move and fight. He FTG Two Kurama Avatars with Giant Rasengan and shortly after was ready to FTG a Jyubi Dama and all of which he didn't show any fatigue or Chakra Drain strain...

Stamina wise Tobirama is way above Itachi.


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> aim GFK. you do know what that jutsu is right...and its scale right


I figured it was Japanese for flying raijin slice. But nah, I'm not sure. With Itachi's level of intelligence and MS abilities, I don't see him losing. And as I've stated before, I really like Tobirama. I think he's as intelligent as his brother was strong. But I also place Itachi in level of intelligence. With the big difference being Itachi has all the history and knowledge about Tobirama, while Tobirama has absolutely nothing on Itachi. If he can catch him off guard with his finger genjutsu for even a second, and just torch him with Amaterasu. It's not an unwinnable fight for Tobirama. But I think the Mangekyo Sharingan was too OP for him to overcome. I don't know why it seems like, of their "countless battles", Izuna never used his MS techniques against Tobirama. I don't think Tobirama can overcome his information deficiency...


And, he did use shadow clones to meet both Naruto and Sasuke just before their fight. To give Naruto the Kotoamatsukami crow, and to give Sasuke instructions on where to find him. Using genjutsu on both.


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> About the Stamina issue...we know Tobirama fought Madara and Co. for around 24  hours and he was still in a good condition to move and fight. He FTG Two Kurama Avatars with Giant Rasengan and shortly after was ready to FTG a Jyubi Dama and all of which he didn't show any fatigue or Chakra Drain strain...
> 
> Stamina wise Tobirama is way above Itachi.


you mean Edo Tobirama? When Edos are said to have unlimited chakra and never tire


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 21, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> I figured it was Japanese for flying raijin slice. But nah, I'm not sure. With Itachi's level of intelligence and MS abilities, I don't see him losing. And as I've stated before, I really like Tobirama. I think he's as intelligent as his brother was strong. But I also place Itachi in level of intelligence. With the big difference being Itachi has all the history and knowledge about Tobirama, while Tobirama has absolutely nothing on Itachi. If he can catch him off guard with his finger genjutsu for even a second, and just torch him with Amaterasu. It's not an unwinnable fight for Tobirama. But I think the Mangekyo Sharingan was too OP for him to overcome. I don't know why it seems like, of their "countless battles", Izuna never used his MS techniques against Tobirama. I don't think Tobirama can overcome his information deficiency...
> 
> 
> And, he did use shadow clones to meet both Naruto and Sasuke just before their fight. To give Naruto the Kotoamatsukami crow, and to give Sasuke instructions on where to find him. Using genjutsu on both.


Tobirama had Knowledge on both Enton and Amaterasu,which means either Izuna or Madara had those.


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Tobirama had Knowledge on both Enton and Amaterasu,which means either Izuna or Madara had those.


Maybe. He did a lot of research on the Sharingan. Well, supposedly. According to the whole Madara's Izanagi revival justification


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 21, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> you mean Edo Tobirama? When Edos are said to have unlimited chakra and never tire


Not Unlimited for certain,just faster replenishment. 
 The mere fact that Tobirama is a Senju gives him Stamina Advantage against most Opponents,and in this case we have Itachi who is especially known like Kakashi for his low Stamina and Chakra!


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 21, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> Maybe. He did a lot of research on the Sharingan. Well, supposedly. According to the whole Madara's Izanagi revival justification


And stil doesn't change the fact that he has Knowledge on them ,it won't be like a surpise and unseen. And if I remember correctly he was impressed by the Size of Sasuke Enrlton which means he has seen Enton in Action.


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Not Unlimited for certain,just faster replenishment.
> The mere fact that Tobirama is a Senju gives him Stamina Advantage against most Opponents,and in this case we have Itachi who is especially known like Kakashi for his low Stamina and Chakra!


I did say "said to be". Madara was the one who stated Edos have unlimited chakra. But based on their actions when the divine tree first appeared, it sure didn't seem to be infinite

and when was it ever stated that Itachi had low stamina? He actually pointed out the opposite to Kakashi when he infiltrated the village. That Kakashi had the Sharingan, but lacked the stamina that Uchihas have to be able to fully use it correctly



Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> And stil doesn't change the fact that he has Knowledge on them ,it won't be like a surpise and unseen. And if I remember correctly he was impressed by the Size of Sasuke Enrlton which means he has seen Enton in Action.


Sure. I didn't say he'd be able to catch him off guard with the Ametarasu. I said he could catch him off guard with his finger genjutsu and even if it's only momentary, that's plenty fast for Ametarasu


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## Icegaze (Sep 21, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> I figured it was Japanese for flying raijin slice. But nah, I'm not sure. With Itachi's level of intelligence and MS abilities, I don't see him losing. And as I've stated before, I really like Tobirama. I think he's as intelligent as his brother was strong. But I also place Itachi in level of intelligence. With the big difference being Itachi has all the history and knowledge about Tobirama, while Tobirama has absolutely nothing on Itachi. If he can catch him off guard with his finger genjutsu for even a second, and just torch him with Amaterasu. It's not an unwinnable fight for Tobirama. But I think the Mangekyo Sharingan was too OP for him to overcome. I don't know why it seems like, of their "countless battles", Izuna never used his MS techniques against Tobirama. I don't think Tobirama can overcome his information deficiency...
> 
> 
> And, he did use shadow clones to meet both Naruto and Sasuke just before their fight. To give Naruto the Kotoamatsukami crow, and to give Sasuke instructions on where to find him. Using genjutsu on both.



Gojo kibaku funds
The explosive Jutsu 
look it up then we carry on from there


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Gojo kibaku funds
> The explosive Jutsu
> look it up then we carry on from there


oh, his tandem explosive tags? Doesn't that move only apply to Edos? He stated it was specifically an ansular jutsu for Edos when he used it


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 21, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> oh, his tandem explosive tags? Doesn't that move only apply to Edos? He stated it was specifically an ansular jutsu for Edos when he used it


It can be used with Living Body but it means a certain suicide.

And he is not Restricted from Edo here if I am not mistaken so he can use it with them!?


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> It can be used with Living Body but it means a certain suicide.


I didn't see that anywhere. Even on the narutopedia page, it states it's for Edos


> And he is not Restricted from Edo here if I am not mistaken so he can use it with them!?


true. But there's never been an example of him using it, or anything to show he has "genetic data" of any dead shinobi on him to be able to use it. And I didn't see anything about having prep time for him to get it together. And there's no other living shinobi there for him to sacrifice to use it


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 21, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> I didn't see that anywhere. Even on the narutopedia page, it states it's for Edos
> true. But there's never been an example of him using it, or anything to show he has "genetic data" of any dead shinobi on him to be able to use it. And I didn't see anything about having prep time for him to get it together. And there's no other living shinobi there for him to sacrifice to use it


Lol if it is not Restricted then we assume he have Bodies Preped and etc.

And I doubt a man with Tobirama Intelligence would not have something Preped for Summon,considering he is like a Good Orochimaru. And he is known for the use if the Jutsu,since Chiyo  and even Muu recognized the Jutsu and thought Tobirama was controlling them. And weren't surprised that they were 4 of them which means Tobirama could uee at least 4 Edos although weaker but for Diversions and trough FTG and GKF they are quite deadly. Tobirama probably had even his own Lab amd etc. Considering he studied Madara Body and his Jutsu Creating Nature.

As for the GKF I think it was said something in the DB,but I can be mistaken.

Here is a Quote from the Wiki Page of the Jutsu: "By sacrificing themselves, this technique can also be employed by a live individual."


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Lol if it is not Restricted then we assume he have Bodies Preped and etc.
> 
> And I doubt a man with Tobirama Intelligence would not have something Preped for Summon,considering he is like a Good Orochimaru. And he is known for the use if the Jutsu,since Chiyo  and even Muu recognized the Jutsu and thought Tobirama was controlling them. And weren't surprised that they were 4 of them which means Tobirama could uee at least 4 Edos although weaker but for Diversions and trough FTG and GKF they are quite deadly. Tobirama probably had even his own Lab amd etc. Considering he studied Madara Body and his Jutsu Creating Nature.
> 
> ...


guess I missed that part. But that still wouldn't give the W. It would be a tie. And we assume Tobirama just walks around with genetic data and a few live sacrifices in tow? With the zero prep time fights, I always assumed that meant that they weren't going into the fight with any sort of preparation, as in it happened randomly. Like they just happened to bump into each other randomly and that led to a fight


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 21, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> guess I missed that part. But that still wouldn't give the W. It would be a tie. And we assume Tobirama just walks around with genetic data and a few live sacrifices in tow? With the zero prep time fights, I always assumed that meant that they weren't going into the fight with any sort of preparation, as in it happened randomly. Like they just happened to bump into each other randomly and that led to a fight


Tobirama is like a Scientist/Researcher who created and used the Jutsu,I think it makes perfect sense for him to have Preparations for the Jutsu after a fight he preps anew! Also he doesn't use it like Oro ,to Summon few OP Powerful Edos,he probably Summons Random Enemies he killed or something like it,and use them for GKF and Aid thats it.


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Tobirama is like a Scientist/Researcher who created and used the Jutsu,I think it makes perfect sense for him to have Preparations for the Jutsu after a fight he preps anew! Also he doesn't use it like Oro ,to Summon few OP Powerful Edos,he probably Summons Random Enemies he killed or something like it,and use them for GKF and Aid thats it.


I would agree if it wasn't something so demanding. I think it would be a huge pain in the ass to drag around a few live sacrifices. Though it's not unthinkable for him to have a scroll containing the genetic data


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 21, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> I would agree if it wasn't something so demanding. I think it would be a huge pain in the ass to drag around a few live sacrifices. Though it's not unthinkable for him to have a scroll containing the genetic data


Of course I meant he had what he needs Sealed in Scrolls and such.

And with FTG and KB he can easily Port away and use the KB for distractions or just buy time for him to Summon the ET!


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Of course I meant he had what he needs Sealed in Scrolls and such.
> 
> And with FTG and KB he can easily Port away and use the KB for distractions or just buy time for him to Summon the ET!


can you keep live people in scrolls? I didn't think you could... like only Obito had live sacrifices stored in his Kamui dimension (which would be a damn convenient ability. he had people held prisoner under a Sharingan Genjutsu just stored in his dimension)


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 21, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> can you keep live people in scrolls? I didn't think you could... like only Obito had live sacrifices stored in his Kamui dimension (which would be a damn convenient ability. he had people held prisoner under a Sharingan Genjutsu just stored in his dimension)


Well Tobirama have used the Jutsu so he probably has some means of doing so,one way or another!


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## Android (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Well Tobirama have used the Jutsu so he probably has some means of doing so,one way or another!


Why would Tobirama need ET or GKF to beat Itachi lol ??

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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Well Tobirama have used the Jutsu so he probably has some means of doing so,one way or another!


they were constantly at war in his era. So there were often dead bodies you could take the genetic data from, and living enemies you could take hostage to sacrifice


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## Sapherosth (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Well Tobirama have used the Jutsu so he probably has some means of doing so,one way or another!




Or maybe Tobirama used it once, deemed it too dangerous messing with the dead, made it forbidden and never used it again.  We know Hashirama is completely against it, so I doubt Tobirama would be keeping a few bodies waiting to be sacrificed. 

I also don't think he's the type to store a soul inside a body and leave them in a coffin for later use like Oro and Kabuto since its highly immoral and out of character for him to do so.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 21, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Or maybe Tobirama used it once, deemed it too dangerous messing with the dead, made it forbidden and never used it again.  We know Hashirama is completely against it, so I doubt Tobirama would be keeping a few bodies waiting to be sacrificed.
> 
> I also don't think he's the type to store a soul inside a body and leave them in a coffin for later use like Oro and Kabuto since its highly immoral and out of character for him to do so.


Have to agree there,but since in this Fight he has ET,we should assume that he has Bodies and etc. somehow.

As for @cctr9 ,yeah I don't think he absolutely necessary needs ET and GKF,but we were just talking about it that's all!

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## theRonin (Sep 21, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Or maybe Tobirama used it once, deemed it too dangerous messing with the dead, made it forbidden and never used it again.  We know Hashirama is completely against it, so I doubt Tobirama would be keeping a few bodies waiting to be sacrificed.
> 
> I also don't think he's the type to store a soul inside a body and leave them in a coffin for later use like Oro and Kabuto since its highly immoral and out of character for him to do so.


Agreed.. Tobirama doesn't seem like the type to disrespect the dead. So that ET is not likely to be used.

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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Or maybe Tobirama used it once, deemed it too dangerous messing with the dead, made it forbidden and never used it again.  We know Hashirama is completely against it, so I doubt Tobirama would be keeping a few bodies waiting to be sacrificed.
> 
> I also don't think he's the type to store a soul inside a body and leave them in a coffin for later use like Oro and Kabuto since its highly immoral and out of character for him to do so.


that's kinda my thoughts. Which is why Orochimaru was able to improve it so much. Because Tobirama didn't want to keep sacrificing it to develop it further before classifying it as "Forbidden"

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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 21, 2016)

Ichibat said:


> Agreed.. Tobirama doesn't seem like the type to disrespect the dead. So that ET is not likely to be used.


While I absolutely agree with both of you. I think if the fight or the situation demands it ,he is the Type of Person who is Rational and will do what needs to be done for the better good,so I think if he feels he doesn't have other options or something like that he will resort to using it. Considering he Developed a Jutsu to go specifically with ET and that is GKF and he was known Worldwide for the ET and even Madara said that the Original Purpose of ET was to "take others with you" ,similar to Kamikaze trough GKF to clean battlefields.


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## Android (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> As for @cctr9 ,yeah I don't think he absolutely necessary needs ET and GKF,but we were just talking about it that's all!


Tobirama surpasses him in Speed , reaction speed , striking speed , firepower , AoE , range , CQC , intelligence , stamina .
Gool luck arguing for Itachi's victory here .

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> While I absolutely agree with both of you. I think if the fight or the situation demands it ,he is the Type of Person who is Rational and will do what needs to be done for the better good,so I think if he feels he doesn't have other options or something like that he will resort to using it. Considering he Developed a Jutsu to go specifically with ET and that is GKF and he was known Worldwide for the ET and even Madara said that the Original Purpose of ET was to "take others with you" ,similar to Kamikaze trough GKF to clean battlefields.


I don't disagree. His suggesting it before Rikodu Sennin popped out to bring Madara back to ask what happened illustrates that. But without prep time, I don't see it as being viable in this particular fight


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 21, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> maybe kabuto wasnt using shunshin there


Do you have any evidence for that ?



> juubito also>>>>> kabuto. so even if one is to suggest an ambush which it wasnt since kabuto was at the order corner of the room. plays possum then blitz. it still at best comparable considering like i said juubito>>>>>>kabuto


Dude, did you even read the manga ?
Take a look
Take a look
Kabuto came out of the mouth of the Orochimaru snake lying on the ground. which was literally next to Itachi : Take a look
And he did that after he collapsed on the floor, like he was hurt or passed out(4th panel on the left).

Eitherway, Itachi deliberately turned off Susano'O to lure him in, it is not a legit feat.



> why would itachi need assistance if he could do without. that scene didnt help in anyway achieve izanami though



Didn't help ? 

For Itachi to activate Izanagi, Kabuto had to have Sasuke's sword and stab him upside down.
For Kabuto to have sasuke's sword and stab Itachi with it, he needed him to come close.
Itachi left himself open to lure him in. It was pretty obivous.



> am happy he planned the entire fight. it doesnt mean he still didnt get blitz though.


I've had enough with this. Not sure if you genuinely believe this or if you are just trying to be dense.
I adressed this already.



> but others did. case in point hashirama. i agree with what i bolded. the rest sounds off. ok and edo itachi while dead couldnt accomplish anything but call out to sasuke.


Both Hashirama and Tobirama did it in the same instance. And the funnier part is, Hashirama was a clone. So it is the outlier of all outliers.
But its irrelevant. We know for a fact that Tobirama sacrificed himself to touch a brainless dude.
Something he wouldn't be able to do if he was alive.



> Kai is the process of interrupting your own chakra flow to break the genjutsu. kai is taking control of one chakra, chakra is used for ninjutsu


Kai is not ninjutsu brother.



> so no reason why movement is possible, chakra molding is possible but not ninjutsu that requires no movement . Well we have no idea what that oro could do though, i mean if the battle was all that was shown on panel then oro essentially cant heal from a chopped wrist when we have in fact seen him heal from his arm ripped off. i think the fight carried on from there...oro the uchiha groupie didnt wet himself when he saw susanoo. and itachi by the feeling could tell which jutsu oro was using. I think that implies abit more than what that panel showed, for you to draw conclusions from just that


Oro can't heal from a chopped wrist unless he uses oral rebirth. We know this for a fact because he used oral rebirth when he lost his arm : Take a look
Which means he can't regen missing body parts.
Now I know for a fact that he didn't use Kawarimi against Itachi because when you use oral rebirth, the shell you leave behind will melt away after you leave the body : Take a look

What we know for a fact is that Orochimaru kept the hand he lost : Take a look
Which means the hand was the real hand, which means he wasn't able to use a kawarimi before he lost it.
Which also means he wasn't able to use ninjutsu.

It makes sense because your chakra system is basically controlled by a foreign entity, so what you can or can't do is limited by their control.

All in all, I don't see Tobirama using Hiraishin when is under the effects of Itachi genjutsu, unless Itachi allows it.



> if you dont know what sharingan is why would you bother urself trying to break genjutsu. if you however know what it is, you know what to look out for and what to expect. i agree with the bold again. hardly anything i bold in your posts.


Take a look
If it was so easy, then people who are experienced in fighting the sharingan wouldn't resort to such tactics.

Just look at the finger genjutsu. Everything was going normal, there was no chance Naruto could distinguish the genjutsu from reality at the start  Take a look
Genjtusu starts in the 3rd panel and the fight goes on the way it would in reality. Naruto only realizes something is off when Itachi starts the mindfuckery.



> which could only land thanks to hirashin though. naruto didnt get there by himself nor could he. the next time they attempted attacking with SM, it was still hirashin they used.


Its irrelevant. Obito became cautious after he realized that senjutsu attacks were working.
He didn't care about Hiraishin up until that point, and he priorly saw what Tobirama did to him with the jutsu swap thing. He only started using those spikes on his back after Naruto's rasengan worked meaning he realized he was vulnerable only when senjutsu came into the picture.



> it wasnt till CS boosted EMS sasuke and naruto attacked juubito together did they consider any other means of approaching juubito.


I don't see how this is relevant.



> but he doesnt care when hit with rasengan. why does being wet bother someone willing to eat a chakra blast to the back


Because getting wet is more annoying. Rasengan normally wouldn't damage him at all. FRS/enton didn't even put a dent on him.



> ask and you shall receive.
> Take a look first bit where he spells out what he intends to do
> 
> Take a look notice the fodders with naruto chakra link which tobirama hacked through using minato chakra link
> ...



Ok there is one thing you are not getting here.
Tobirama was able to teleport em because there was a chakra link.
The chakra link is established by Naruto. If there was no chakra link, obviously Tobirama wouldn't be able to teleport anyone without touching them.
How is Tobirama going to establish a chakra link with Itachi here ?

Show me Tobirama or Minato teleporting someone who doesn't have Naruto's chakra link without touching them.



> i dont disagree however, there they hirashin swapped to a specific attack. in order to swap to minato location with juubito he had to ram juubito into the attack.
> 
> its abit odd i give you that.



It is the exact same situation. Tobirama had his mark on him. He should have been able to perform whatehever he performed without touching him going by your logic.
He couldn't because there was no chakra link between him and Obito, so he needed to touch him.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 21, 2016)

I think if Edo Tobirama who is weaker than Alive Tobirama will have even Better Reflexes,Reactions and Physical Speed amd with Shunshin he is way to faster for Itachi. And the way I see it Edo Tobirama had 2 Options,to use the opportunity of being hit by Juubito and Mark him for FTG and also Test his Durability via Explosive Tags and GKF and he used the fact that he is Edo to his advantage,which leads me to the thought that if wanted he could have Evade the Attack but without Marking Juubito and using GKF. And if he was Alive I think he could have Evade it for sure . And as we saw Sasuke said that the Hokage knew they are Edos and used that to their Advantage to gain Knowledge on Juubito Abilities and Stats!


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## Sapherosth (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> I think if Edo Tobirama who is weaker than Alive Tobirama will have even Better Reflexes,Reactions and Physical Speed amd with Shunshin he is way to faster for Itachi. And the way I see it Edo Tobirama had 2 Options,to use the opportunity of being hit by Juubito and Mark him for FTG and also Test his Durability via Explosive Tags and GKF and he used the fact that he is Edo to his advantage,which leads me to the thought that if wanted he could have Evade the Attack but without Marking Juubito and using GKF. And if he was Alive I think he could have Evade it for sure . And as we saw Sasuke said that the Hokage knew they are Edos and used that to their Advantage to gain Knowledge on Juubito Abilities and Stats!




You do realise that the same would apply for Itachi, correct?

Perhaps even more so considering Orochimaru's edo tensei was the most advanced to date whereas Kabuto's might still have room to improve.

This means that a healthy alive Itachi > Edo Itachi

(In general)
I also find it funny how some people would argue against the fact that Itachi uses his Edo body to protect Sasuke and lure Kabuto in to complete his strategy as well, yet it somehow doesn't count because it's Itachi. Lol....double standards I'd say.

Even the databook supports this, so did the entire fight in the manga. The whole point of it was Itachi reading Kabuto's heart and using it during battle.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 21, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> You do realise that the same would apply for Itachi, correct?
> 
> Perhaps even more so considering Orochimaru's edo tensei was the most advanced to date whereas Kabuto's might still have room to improve.
> 
> ...


I never said anything for Itachi feats against Kabuto. But Itachi is most certainly not faster in any aspect than Tobirama. 

The only things Itachi has in advantage over Tobirama is Genjutsu and Shuriken Jutsu and thats it.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> I never said anything for Itachi feats against Kabuto. But Itachi is most certainly not faster in any aspect than Tobirama.
> 
> The only things Itachi has in advantage over Tobirama is Genjutsu and Shuriken Jutsu and thats it.



Itachi doesn't have to be as fast as Tobirama to keep up or intercept his speed. Itachi has already shown SUFFICIENT reflexes to deal with it.

Itachi surpasses in defense, analytical ability, KNOWLEDGE on Tobirama, CQC, Feinting ability, genjutsu and offense.

The only things tobi has over itachi is speed via FTG and stamina. That's pretty much it.

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## ThunderCunt (Sep 21, 2016)

Tobirama waits in shadows and let it all get over, Itachi dies from Ninja Aids.

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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 21, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Itachi doesn't have to be as fast as Tobirama to keep up or intercept his speed. Itachi has already shown SUFFICIENT reflexes to deal with it.
> 
> Itachi surpasses in defense, analytical ability, KNOWLEDGE on Tobirama, CQC, Feinting ability, genjutsu and offense.
> 
> The only things tobi has over itachi is speed via FTG and stamina. That's pretty much it.


Have to disagree on mostly everything!

Tobirama has advantage in Intelligence Experience,Knowledge,Chakra Pool,Stamina,Physical Speed,Physical Strength,Durability,Reflexes,Reactions,Shunshin,Kenjutsu,CQC,Summoning, Ninjutsu, Chakra Natures,Yin and Yang,AoE  and when you add his excessive Experience against Uchiha it is more than enough to deal with Itachi.

As I said only Genjutsu and MAY BE Shuriken Jutsu!


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> MAY BE Shuriken Jutsu!



Don't so generous my man. 
I think Tobirama has better shuriken jutsu too, eventhough he practically has no feats or hype regarding that area.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 21, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Don't so generous my man.
> I think Tobirama has better shuriken jutsu too, eventhough he practically has no feats or hype regarding that area.


Exactly,may be bacause we don't know anything or saw it. But as I said that is one of the Advantages for Itachi which is quite useless in this case!


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Exactly,may be bacause we don't know anything or saw it.!





Oh jesus. Please tell me you are trolling.


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

ThunderCunt said:


> Tobirama waits in shadows and let it all get over, Itachi dies from Ninja Aids.


lmao. Perfect. W by way of NinjAIDS

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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 21, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Oh jesus. Please tell me you are trolling.


What is the trolling about saying that I can't be sure if someone is better than another in a particular are when that someone is not shown in that area!? 

We only know Tobirama uses skilfully Kunai with FTG while Itachi is Expert in Shuriken Jutsu,that's why I said it as his advantage.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> What is the trolling about saying that I can't be sure if someone is better than another *in a particular are when that someone is not shown in that area!?*



You answered your own question.
There is absolutely no evidence that Tobirama(or anyone for that matter) is as skilled at Itachi in that area because no one has shown the level of feats Itachi has nor recieved the hype he has recieved.

Your argument is basically  "there is no evidence that Tobirama isn't as good as Itachi in shuriken jutsu." You can't use a negative as evidence.
This is like saying we can't be sure whether Shikaku has more durability than 3rd Raikage or not because we actually have no idea how durable he is.  That is utterly stupid.
Thats why I said that I hope you are trolling, because if you aren't trolling then it leaves out only one option.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 21, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You answered your own question.
> There is absolutely no evidence that Tobirama(or anyone for that matter) is as skilled at Itachi in that area because no one has shown the level of feats Itachi has nor recieved the hype he has recieved.
> 
> Your argument is basically  "there is no evidence that Tobirama isn't as good as Itachi in shuriken jutsu." You can't use a negative as evidence.
> ...


Itachi is extremely good in that Area but that doesn't make him the best in the Wolrd or of all Times. Simply because there not so much Shuriken Techs,and etc used throughout the Manga and many other characters who specialize in that so much.

But as I said it is Advantage for Itachi,but not so useful in this situation. Sp further discussion is meaningless.


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Itachi is extremely good in that Area but that doesn't make him the best in the Wolrd or of all Times. Simply because there not so much Shuriken Techs,and etc used throughout the Manga and many other characters who specialize in that so much.
> 
> *But as I said it is Advantage for Itachi,but not so useful in this situation. Sp further discussion is meaningless.*


him being superior with his shuriken jutsu would help him to defend against Tobirama's Flying Raijin Slice

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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 21, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> him being superior with his shuriken jutsu would help him to defend against Tobirama's Flying Raijin Slice


Well it will but it will also disperse all Kunais around a Mid Range Area,if Tobirama throws like 5-10 Kunais and only 1 is Marked or 2 and Itachi deflects them then therewill be Kunais lying around and some of them will be Marked some not,which will give Tobirama even more advantage since it will be hard to tell whch Kunais are Marked and which not and where Tobirama may pop up. Not to mention he can defelct a Kunai and Tobirama can still port to it and get itachi by a surprise!


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## Android (Sep 21, 2016)




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## Sapherosth (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Well it will but it will also disperse all Kunais around a Mid Range Area,if Tobirama throws like 5-10 Kunais and only 1 is Marked or 2 and Itachi deflects them then therewill be Kunais lying around and some of them will be Marked some not,which will give Tobirama even more advantage since it will be hard to tell whch Kunais are Marked and which not and where Tobirama may pop up. Not to mention he can defelct a Kunai and Tobirama can still port to it and get itachi by a surprise!




Itachi deflects all of them to the place of his choosing and remembers them. Not that hard. Any feats of Tobirama using such tactics to begin with?


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Well it will but it will also disperse all Kunais around a Mid Range Area,if Tobirama throws like 5-10 Kunais and only 1 is Marked or 2 and Itachi deflects them then therewill be Kunais lying around and some of them will be Marked some not,which will give Tobirama even more advantage since it will be hard to tell whch Kunais are Marked and which not and where Tobirama may pop up. Not to mention he can defelct a Kunai and Tobirama can still port to it and get itachi by a surprise!


Itachi's shuriken jutsu is so good that he could scuff the markings

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Android (Sep 21, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> you mean Edo Tobirama? When Edos are said to have unlimited chakra and never tire


Um , no that's not how it works .
Madara was the only one with unlimited chakra , and he was actually referring to himself , he said that if an Edo is summoned back to life , and know about the hand seal , they can break of the countract and stay in the real world + gain unlimited chakra .
And that's what he did , when Kabuto , under Itachi's Izanami broke the ET , Madara broke free from it knowing the necessary hand seals .
We saw other Edo getting low on chakra/Stamina , and actually panting . Like Minato , Hashirama ... etc etc


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Um , no that's not how it works .
> Madara was the only one with unlimited chakra , and he was actually referring to himself , he said that if an Edo is summoned back to life , and know about the hand seal , they can break of the countract and stay in the real world + gain unlimited chakra .
> And that's what he did , when Kabuto , under Itachi's Izanami broke the ET , Madara broke free from it knowing the necessary hand seals .
> We saw other Edo getting low on chakra/Stamina , and actually panting . Like Minato , Hashirama ... etc etc


No. He didn't. He said "if someone knows the hand signs, then you have the biggest problem of all. An immortal shinobi with unlimited chakra". Nothing about suddenly gaining unlimited chakra from simply rescinding the contract


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## Sapherosth (Sep 21, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> Itachi's shuriken jutsu is so good that he could scuff the markings




the funny thing about that is it's probably possible. Or he just burns all the markings via fire shurikens.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 21, 2016)

So a Hirashin Mark is said to never vanish and yet Itachi will burn thee Markings? ok nice! 

So he will deflect Kunais and remember hich one of all is Makred with a lot of Kunais!? Ok that is kida possible but know which Kunais are Marked doesnt help him figure out where Tobirama will Teleport to!

what Tactic!? Usinga Marked Kunai!? Sure he did it against Madara! And he ncause as much as he has and wnts of them! I dont see what is the problem with it and I dont belive it to be sometihng so out of character or impossible!


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## Android (Sep 21, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> No. He didn't. He said "if someone knows the hand signs, then you have the biggest problem of all. An immortal shinobi with unlimited chakra". Nothing about suddenly gaining unlimited chakra from simply rescinding the contract


Um no , when Kabuto undid ET , Madara canceled the contract knowing the necessary hand seals thus , not being under anyone's control , or anyone's comand , a free immortale being with no limits .
Meanwhile , ET that are controlled are only as strong as the caster , for example Oro couldn't summon the hokages at full power , and he only summoned them close to their full power because he had Zetsu's body which consists of Hashirama's cells .
Besides , we were told that Madara's ET was special , i mean he was summoned as a young 34 years old man , when he actually died as a 99 years old geezer , meanwhile all othe ET were summoned the same way before they die .
We saw even the strongest ET getting low on chakra like hashirama and Minato , but not Madara .


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Um no , when Kabuto undid ET , Madara canceled the contract knowing the necessary hand seals thus , not being under anyone's control , or anyone's comand , a free immortale being with no limits .
> Meanwhile , ET that are controlled are only as strong as the caster , for example Oro couldn't summon the hokages at full power , and he only summoned them close to their full power because he had Zetsu's body which consists of Hashirama's cells .
> Besides , we were told that Madara's ET was special , i mean he was summoned as a young 34 years old man , when he actually died as a 99 years old geezer , meanwhile all othe ET were summoned the same way before they die .
> We saw even the strongest ET getting low on chakra like hashirama and Minato , but not Madara .


 
OK. I give up. Where does it support your argument? I was going off the anime, but what he said here is the same, just not an exact quote

and, just no. To your theory of the ETs not being more powerful than the caster. madara was unquestionably stronger than Kabuto. And Hashirama was undoubtedly more powerful than Orochimaru. Even Orochimaru himself said he could break free anytime he wanted


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## Android (Sep 21, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> and, just no. To your theory of the ETs not being more powerful than the caster. madara was unquestionably stronger than Kabuto. And Hashirama was undoubtedly more powerful than Orochimaru. Even Orochimaru himself said he could break free anytime he wanted


Um , no , i didn't say the Edos are as strong as the caster , i said , if the caster is strong enuff , the Edos will get back at full power , or close to it .


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Um , no , i didn't say the Edos are as strong as the caster , i said , if the caster is strong enuff , the Edos will get back at full power , or close to it .


huh? Thats EXACTLY what you said. "ET that are controlled are only as strong as the caster". it's right there in your post


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## Android (Sep 21, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> huh? Thats EXACTLY what you said. "ET are only as strong as the caster". it's right there in your post


Ok , my apologies , maybe i didn't/couldn't make myself clear lol


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Ok , my apologies , maybe i didn't/couldn't make myself clear lol


fair enough


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 21, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Itachi is extremely good in that Area but that doesn't make him the best in the Wolrd or of all Times. Simply because there not so much Shuriken Techs,and etc used throughout the Manga and many other characters who specialize in that so much.[



Ok list other characters who are better than Itachi. Hype and feats. Go ahead, I'll wait.



> But as I said it is Advantage for Itachi,but not so useful in this situation. Sp further discussion is meaningless.



Well, yeah I don't see shuriken jutsu as a go to win strategy for anyone, but like we've seen against Nagato, it can actually become a valuable asset. It is circumstantial, but I wouldn't write it off entirely.

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## Kaaant (Sep 21, 2016)

Itachi is never beating Tobirama.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 21, 2016)

Since they're in Konohagakure, and are starting off so far away from one another, Tobirama will be able to find Itachi faster than Itachi can find Tobirama due to him being an adept sensor. He can use Kage Bunshins to close in on Itachi who won't have anyway of finding Tobirama so easily, and that gives Tobirama a pretty distinct advantage. That, combined with Tobirama having a knowledge advantage on Uchiha, as well as being a superior Shinobi in general makes me go with Tobirama. This location and distance favor him more than it does for Itachi.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kaaant (Sep 22, 2016)

Tobirama reacted fast enough to plaster Jewbito with explosives and a hirashin tag before the guy could blow away half of his body, he simply put has the fastest hand speed for a non demigod character in the series. Add to that the fact that Tobirama can teleport to anything connected to his chakra, aka an environment made up of his water and Itachi isn't laying a finger on him.

Susano'o gets teleported away by hirashin or blown up, Amaterasu is dodged or an obstruction is put up as Tobirama senses it before hand. Tsukuyomi isn't going to affect him or any of his clones and it's just gonna sap itachi's reserves. 

Tobirama ends it by breaking his neck.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Sapherosth (Sep 22, 2016)

Kaaant said:


> Tobirama reacted fast enough to plaster Jewbito with explosives and a hirashin tag before the guy could blow away half of his body, he simply put has the fastest hand speed for a non demigod character in the series. Add to that the fact that Tobirama can teleport to anything connected to his chakra, aka an environment made up of his water and Itachi isn't laying a finger on him.
> 
> Susano'o gets teleported away by hirashin or blown up, Amaterasu is dodged or an obstruction is put up as Tobirama senses it before hand. Tsukuyomi isn't going to affect him or any of his clones and it's just gonna sap itachi's reserves.
> 
> Tobirama ends it by breaking his neck.





1. Sensing has to be turned on. It's not a passive ability. Only thing with passive sensing is KCM/SM.
2. Tobirama got blitzed
3. Tobirama can't teleport an environment. wtf?
4. Susano gets teleported away? wtf?
5. Tsukuyomi is going to affect him, wtf?


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 22, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Since they're in Konohagakure, and are starting off so far away from one another, Tobirama will be able to find Itachi faster than Itachi can find Tobirama due to him being an adept sensor. He can use Kage Bunshins to close in on Itachi who won't have anyway of finding Tobirama so easily, and that gives Tobirama a pretty distinct advantage. That, combined with Tobirama having a knowledge advantage on Uchiha, as well as being a superior Shinobi in general makes me go with Tobirama. This location and distance favor him more than it does for Itachi.


would Itachi not also see him with his Sharingan?


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## Icegaze (Sep 22, 2016)

@Sapherosth 
I think what he means is that fact that off panel or Noti
If you notice tobirama always seemed to have a mark somewhere for some unknown reason 
Eg: when he ported naruto away after he lost his chakra to god tree
Or after he returned juubito TSB when did he make that mark ? Was it the same one etc

Think that's what he must mean by teleport to the landscape once he has marked it 

I don't agree with that 

But I would think marking a large building for example would mean he can appear anywhere within that building don't you think


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## Sapherosth (Sep 22, 2016)

The All Unknowing said:


> would Itachi not also see him with his Sharingan?





Icegaze said:


> @Sapherosth
> I think what he means is that fact that off panel or Noti
> If you notice tobirama always seemed to have a mark somewhere for some unknown reason
> Eg: when he ported naruto away after he lost his chakra to god tree
> ...





I don't think so, there should be a limit to how far one could FTG near their mark.


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## Icegaze (Sep 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I don't think so, there should be a limit to how far one could FTG near their mark.



I agree 
What's that limit is the question though 

I mean otherwise why was obito fooled as to which Kunai minato would wrap to 

You would note while people think he was stupid there was a Kunai behind minato as well

Which He left on the floor before running towards obito 

There is certainly a limit but I think it's a wide enough area to benefit from it 

It's not like you appear standing on the mark made for example


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## Kaaant (Sep 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> 1. Sensing has to be turned on. It's not a passive ability. Only thing with passive sensing is KCM/SM.



Wrong, you need to knead chakra, aka you need to be in a fighting mode. 



> 2. Tobirama got blitzed


 
Go and read it again. 



> 3. Tobirama can't teleport an environment. wtf?



What the fuck are you talking about?



> 4. Susano gets teleported away? wtf?



Yup. 



> 5. Tsukuyomi is going to affect him, wtf?



Could you just stop that? 

Well done crying to that moderator because I hurt your feelings btw.


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## Kaaant (Sep 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Think that's what he must mean by teleport to the landscape once he has marked it



An environment that immersed in water is an environment covered in his chakra, which is an environment where he controls the positioning of everything on it. He's demonstrated he doesn't even need to physically be touching someone to teleport them.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 22, 2016)

Kaaant said:


> Wrong, you need to knead chakra, aka you need to be in a fighting mode.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What moderator? Lmao. What would I report you for anyway? We never even had an argument. Stop pointing fingers at others and look at yourself first.

Still, you just pretty much said Tobirama can tank Tsukuyomi.

Personally I think that warrants a ban. 






Icegaze said:


> I agree
> What's that limit is the question though
> 
> I mean otherwise why was obito fooled as to which Kunai minato would wrap to
> ...



It's anybody's guess really. Personally I think it's no more than 1-2 meter.


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## Icegaze (Sep 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> What moderator? Lmao. What would I report you for anyway? We never even had an argument. Stop pointing fingers at others and look at yourself first.
> 
> Still, you just pretty much said Tobirama can tank Tsukuyomi.
> 
> ...



Based on ?
Just curious 
Not saying anything but I get the agenda


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## Kaaant (Sep 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Still, you just pretty much said Tobirama can tank Tsukuyomi.
> 
> Personally I think that warrants a ban.



That comment warranted a cringe that's for sure. 

Assuming an overrated technique like Tsukuyomi worked on Tobirama, it's not gonna hit him, considering his clones are immune.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Based on ?
> Just curious
> Not saying anything but I get the agenda




Based on Minato's usage of FTG so far.








Kaaant said:


> That comment warranted a cringe that's for sure.
> 
> Assuming an overrated technique like Tsukuyomi worked on Tobirama, it's not gonna hit him, considering his clones are immune.






Please make a thread on Tsukuyomi vs Tobirama. I'd like to see who else on this forum shares your opinion on Tobirama TANKING tsukuyomi.

Clones aren't immune either.


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## Icegaze (Sep 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Based on Minato's usage of FTG so far.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Please show me where the Kunai was when he teleported kurama and the BD 
Really curious where in that entire panel it was shown for example 

At 1-2 m it would be in the panel wouldn't it 

Also at 1-2 m obito wouldn't have been concerned with the Kunai minato ran away from hence why he said you flew to that Kunai 

As the one minato left behind was in obito LoS so to speak so that's what he was focuses on

It also looked more than 1-2m away from minato


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 22, 2016)

It is pretty obvious that Hiraishin users can teleport to the very close proximity of the mark. I think 1 meter radius sounds about right, might be even shorter.


edit : 

I actually take it back. 1 meter seems a bit too generous : 
this

Look at how closely Minato's kunai are scattered. It would be redundant to place them so close to each other if his teleportation range was more than a few feet around each mark.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Please show me where the Kunai was when he teleported kurama and the BD
> Really curious where in that entire panel it was shown for example
> 
> At 1-2 m it would be in the panel wouldn't it
> ...




You're trying to prove something to me, so why are you asking me to show it?


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## Kaaant (Sep 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Clones aren't immune either.



Except that one time Itachi tried it on a clone and it didn't work?

"So that's why it didn't work. It is a clone."

Keep trying.


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## Kaaant (Sep 22, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is pretty obvious that Hiraishin users can teleport to the very close proximity of the mark. I think 1 meter radius sounds about right, might be even shorter.



Tobirama had the length of a bijuu between him and Obito when he teleported both Kurama behind him.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 22, 2016)

Kaaant said:


> Except that one time Itachi tried it on a clone and it didn't work?
> 
> "So that's why it didn't work. It is a clone."




It didn't affect the original Kakashi which is why he said it didn't work. The clone itself was in a genjutsu.


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## Kaaant (Sep 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> It didn't affect the original Kakashi which is why he said it didn't work. The clone itself was in a genjutsu.



No. He was referring to it not working on the clone itself. And it didn't.


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## Icegaze (Sep 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> You're trying to prove something to me, so why are you asking me to show it?



Lol am not 
Just saying I get your agenda and why it's much easier for you to say it's range is perhaps even 0m


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## Icegaze (Sep 22, 2016)

Kaaant said:


> No. He was referring to it not working on the clone itself. And it didn't.




What was said 
Is quite simply genjutsu on the clone doesn't affect the original 
Clones can be put in genjutsu but that's just daft to the genjutsu user since the original can just dispel the clone 

So yes genjutsu is pointless against clones


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 22, 2016)

Kaaant said:


> Tobirama had the length of a bijuu between him and Obito when he teleported both Kurama behind him.



Because there were two bijuu between him and Obito.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Lol am not
> Just saying I get your agenda and why it's much easier for you to say it's range is perhaps even 0m




But you were just trying to make a point that the range is much more than 1-2 meters. I already said my piece and Grim already gave a panel showing Minato scattering the Kunai's close to each other. 

Now I am waiting for you to provide why you think the range can be more than 1-2 meters.


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## Icegaze (Sep 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> But you were just trying to make a point that the range is much more than 1-2 meters. I already said my piece and Grim already gave a panel showing Minato scattering the Kunai's close to each other.
> 
> Now I am waiting for you to provide why you think the range can be more than 1-2 meters.



show me the kunai in this scan please

this

and this one
this

at 1-2 meters its bound to be in at least this scan no? referring to top right scan


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## Kaaant (Sep 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> What was said
> Is quite simply genjutsu on the clone doesn't affect the original
> Clones can be put in genjutsu but that's just daft to the genjutsu user since the original can just dispel the clone
> 
> So yes genjutsu is pointless against clones


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 22, 2016)

lol, doppleganger? Classy


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## Veracity (Sep 23, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> 1. Sensing has to be turned on. It's not a passive ability. Only thing with passive sensing is KCM/SM.
> 2. Tobirama got blitzed
> 3. Tobirama can't teleport an environment. wtf?
> 4. Susano gets teleported away? wtf?
> 5. Tsukuyomi is going to affect him, wtf?


I don't think Tobirama got blizted Against Juubito. The man kneeded the chakra necessary to place a FTG seal on Obito's back mid flciker.  For him to actually be blizted,  how could that happen?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2016)

Read my post slower this time


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## Kaaant (Sep 23, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Read my post slower this time



Read the scan as many times as it takes to get it through your head.


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## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2016)

Kaaant said:


> Read the scan as many times as it takes to get it through your head.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 23, 2016)

I think he is right tho lol. 

Why would Itachi expect the genjutsu he cast on the bunshin to work on the original anyways ? Because he specifically said the reason why the genjutsu didn't work is because it was a bunshin he used it on.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 23, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> I don't think Tobirama got blizted Against Juubito. The man kneeded the chakra necessary to place a FTG seal on Obito's back mid flciker.  For him to actually be blizted,  how could that happen?




Getting killed without being able to dodge is called being blitzed. It doesn't matter if he can touch Obito to place his mark. The whole point of it was he wasn't able to do anything else. 

You mentioned kneeding chakra as if it's a difficult process. Any evidence that placing an FTG mark is a difficult process to begin with? It looks like a simple tap, that's all, just like Itachi's finger tap on Sasuke's forehead which sealed the Amateratsu. 

If Tobirama was alive, but he still tagged Juubito, would you still consider it as not being a blitz?  Given the fact that Tobirama would dying in the process and all.


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## Veracity (Sep 23, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Getting killed without being able to dodge is called being blitzed. It doesn't matter if he can touch Obito to place his mark. The whole point of it was he wasn't able to do anything else.
> 
> You mentioned kneeding chakra as if it's a difficult process. Any evidence that placing an FTG mark is a difficult process to begin with? It looks like a simple tap, that's all, just like Itachi's finger tap on Sasuke's forehead which sealed the Amateratsu.
> 
> If Tobirama was alive, but he still tagged Juubito, would you still consider it as not being a blitz?  Given the fact that Tobirama would dying in the process and all.



Tobirama was an Edo in that instance, and if anyone knows the mechanics of Edo,  he should the most. He could afford to let his body get ripped apart to accomplish something much greater, like placing a seal on Juubito's back. My question isn't whether Tobirama got destroyed,  but rather could he have avoided the attack all together and FTG'D away, and I'm telling you he could. Its illogical to assume he could react to Obito at point blank range ( the explosive seals and the FTG mark) but couldn't move a finger when Obito activated the dash at like 20m away? It becomes obvious that he sacrificed his body to place that seal( which becomes even more clear when one considers his analytical ability, the fact that he's known to catch one off guard, and the fact that he had a well constructed plan right off the jump). He could do one but not the other.

Placing FTG doesn't have to be a difficult process at all. We know it's slower than regular movement, and for Tobirama to he able to do so, he would have been able to react to the attack before it even got to him. It's clear that he can activate FTG just as fast as he can knead the chakra and move his body to place it. He could have avoided Juubito, but he wouldn't have accomplished anything now would he? 

If Tobirama was alive he would have avoided that attack by warping away. He can also always use a Kage Bunshin in place to accomplish the same thing.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think he is right tho lol.
> 
> Why would Itachi expect the genjutsu he cast on the bunshin to work on the original anyways ? Because he specifically said the reason why the genjutsu didn't work is because it was a bunshin he used it on.



Which means genjutsu can be used on clones and it doesn't affect the original 
And genjutsu used on the original also won't affect the clone 

True or false ?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 23, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Which means genjutsu can be used on clones and it doesn't affect the original
> And genjutsu used on the original also won't affect the clone
> 
> True or false ?



True on both accounts, but that doesn't explain Itachi's remark about Kakashi.

He is basically saying that the genjutsu didn't work because he used it on a bunshin. The bunshin seems completely unphased too, because he squeezes Itachi's arm as soon as the genjutsu ends to pin him down.


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## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> True on both accounts, but that doesn't explain Itachi's remark about Kakashi.
> 
> He is basically saying that the genjutsu didn't work because he used it on a bunshin. The bunshin seems completely unphased too, because he squeezes Itachi's arm as soon as the genjutsu ends to pin him down.



Think that would be because of sharingan he saw through it 
I don't think clones are immune to genjutsu 
but controlling a clone is pointless


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 23, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Think that would be because of sharingan he saw through it
> I don't think clones are immune to genjutsu
> but controlling a clone is pointless



It didn't seem like the clone dispelled it though. And had the clone dispelled it, or saw through it, then Itachi would compliment Kakashi on his genjutsu defense, rather than negating the effects of genjutsu via bunshin.

I think the genjutsu Itachi was using was meant to cause pain, and wear down the mind, and the clone for some reason was uneffected. Maybe they don't experience mental trauma, I'm not sure what the exact reason is, but I'm pretty sure what Itachi meant was the the genjutsu didn't work because it was a bunshin.


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## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It didn't seem like the clone dispelled it though. And had the clone dispelled it, or saw through it, then Itachi would compliment Kakashi on his genjutsu defense, rather than negating the effects of genjutsu via bunshin.
> 
> I think the genjutsu Itachi was using was meant to cause pain, and wear down the mind, and the clone for some reason was uneffected. Maybe they don't experience mental trauma, I'm not sure what the exact reason is, but I'm pretty sure what Itachi meant was the the genjutsu didn't work because it was a bunshin.



The implications of that are rather grand in this match 
Tobirama the creator of clones could simply clone spam and always have a means of breaking genjutsu

If clones are immune Itachi won't even risk tskuyomi because it might hit a clone 

With those sort of implications 
I favour tobirama even more than before

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Sep 23, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Tobirama was an Edo in that instance, and if anyone knows the mechanics of Edo,  he should the most. He could afford to let his body get ripped apart to accomplish something much greater, like placing a seal on Juubito's back. My question isn't whether Tobirama got destroyed,  but rather could he have avoided the attack all together and FTG'D away, and I'm telling you he could. Its illogical to assume he could react to Obito at point blank range ( the explosive seals and the FTG mark) but couldn't move a finger when Obito activated the dash at like 20m away? It becomes obvious that he sacrificed his body to place that seal( which becomes even more clear when one considers his analytical ability, the fact that he's known to catch one off guard, and the fact that he had a well constructed plan right off the jump). He could do one but not the other.
> 
> Placing FTG doesn't have to be a difficult process at all. We know it's slower than regular movement, and for Tobirama to he able to do so, he would have been able to react to the attack before it even got to him. It's clear that he can activate FTG just as fast as he can knead the chakra and move his body to place it. He could have avoided Juubito, but he wouldn't have accomplished anything now would he?
> 
> If Tobirama was alive he would have avoided that attack by warping away. He can also always use a Kage Bunshin in place to accomplish the same thing.




Hmmm, now that I think about it, it does make sense. Well done. 

There is one thing that I disagree with though, which is the last sentence where you said he can use a kage bunshin in his place to accomplish the same thing. Don't forget that Kage bunshins are slower than their originals.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 23, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> The implications of that are rather grand in this match
> Tobirama the creator of clones could simply clone spam and always have a means of breaking genjutsu
> 
> If clones are immune Itachi won't even risk tskuyomi because it might hit a clone
> ...


you're right. If shadowclones are immune, Itachi is pretty screwed


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## Sapherosth (Sep 23, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> The implications of that are rather grand in this match
> Tobirama the creator of clones could simply clone spam and always have a means of breaking genjutsu
> 
> If clones are immune Itachi won't even risk tskuyomi because it might hit a clone
> ...




Pretty sure that Tsukuyomi mechanic bypases Shadow clones. There are many threads about this topic.


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## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Pretty sure that Tsukuyomi mechanic bypases Shadow clones. There are many threads about this topic.



Well I said if they are immune to genjutsu 
Then by definition they are immune to tskuyomi 

I however have no interest in arguing that they are 
Grim an Itachi fan implied it's possible 
And if it is then I rest my case on this fight as it can only go 1 WAy


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 23, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> The implications of that are rather grand in this match
> Tobirama the creator of clones could simply clone spam and always have a means of breaking genjutsu
> 
> If clones are immune Itachi won't even risk tskuyomi because it might hit a clone
> ...



I think the risk of blowing genjutsu on a clone is always there, whether the clones are immune or not. I mean even if they weren't immune, oneshotting a clone with Tsukiyomi would be very costly, its a trade anyone would take anytime against Itachi tbh.


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## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think the risk of blowing genjutsu on a clone is always there, whether the clones are immune or not. I mean even if they weren't immune, oneshotting a clone with Tsukiyomi would be very costly, its a trade anyone would take anytime against Itachi tbh.



But if they are immune how could tskuyomi 1 shot them ? Am confused 
And yes genjutsu on a clone is always a risk
Hence why I always bring it up as a viable defence 
Whether the clone is immune or not one thing is certain 
Itachi wouldn't use it if he sees a clone or more around 
As it would be a waste and he exposes himself tactically


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 23, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> But if they are immune how could tskuyomi 1 shot them ? Am confused


I said "even if they weren't immune." Assuming.

If the clone is immune and you use Tsukiyomi on the clone, then you wasted all that chakra for nothing. If the clone isn't immune then good job you dispatched a clone. 
But eitherway, using Tsukiyomi on a clone is a waste. Thats what I meant.


> And yes genjutsu on a clone is always a risk
> Hence why I always bring it up as a viable defence
> Whether the clone is immune or not one thing is certain
> Itachi wouldn't use it if he sees a clone or more around
> As it would be a waste and he exposes himself tactically



If Tobirama has shadowclones around, and Itachi is not sure which one is Tobirama, he likely wouldn't use Tsukiyomi without testing the waters first. Thats pretty obvious. 

Like for example Sasuke took a guess and he was wrong : this
And that gave Itachi a pretty significant openning : this

On the flipside, this could happen to Tobirama too, tag an exploding bunshin and get stunned or hurt and leave himself open, or get his LOS blocked by crows and get blindsided.

But all in all, I rather not delve too deep into the bunshin thing. It is pretty circumstantial.


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## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I said "even if they weren't immune." Assuming.
> 
> If the clone is immune and you use Tsukiyomi on the clone, then you wasted all that chakra for nothing. If the clone isn't immune then good job you dispatched a clone.
> But eitherway, using Tsukiyomi on a clone is a waste. Thats what I meant.
> ...



Oh Kk of the clone isn't immune then at most you will have dispatched it with tskuyomi I get you . But Yh would be a waste regardless 

agreed he won't use tskuyomi without testing the waters but clones around could simply stop him from using it all together in the sense where he isn't going to run through trial and error using genjutsu if there are several clones on the field 

I think clones on the field changes his tactic all together . 

Yes which means if Itachi takes a guess and he is wrong it could give tobirama and opening . Hence why I believe if Itachi sees tobirama use a bunch of clones it's to defeat them in direct combat or use susanoo and destroy them 

Oh yh both are clone users and I have always said this was 50/50
Who ever falls for a feint and doesn't recover in time looses this match


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## Sapherosth (Sep 23, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Well I said if they are immune to genjutsu
> Then by definition they are immune to tskuyomi
> 
> I however have no interest in arguing that they are
> ...



Well, Grim is wrong in this case then.

It's impossible for clones to be immune to genjutsu.

Considering we've seen clones cast and caught in genjutsu.

Pretty sure that shadow clones transfers experience back to the original user. 

Tsukuyomi traps the clone for a week of torture. Clone dissipates. Experience goes straight to user. GG.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 23, 2016)

Well Kakashi's Kagebunshin was completely unphased by Itachi's genjutsu though. And Itachi clearly stated that it didn't work on him.

But that was before Kishimoto came up with the KB carrying over the experience idea, so he may have not thought about it at the time.

I'm not sure but going off solely by that instance, KB's seem to be immune to mental trauma.


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## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Well, Grim is wrong in this case then.
> 
> It's impossible for clones to be immune to genjutsu.
> 
> ...



Odd how when Kakashi was caught Itachi said nothing happened cuz it was a clone


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## Sapherosth (Sep 23, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Well Kakashi's Kagebunshin was completely unphased by Itachi's genjutsu though. And Itachi clearly stated that it didn't work on him.
> 
> But that was before Kishimoto came up with the KB carrying over the experience idea, so he may have not thought about it at the time.
> 
> I'm not sure but going off solely by that instance, KB's seem to be immune to mental trauma.



More like Itachi used it, realised it was a clone and didn't bother anymore. 

Either that, or Kakashi's clone saw through it or broke the genjutsu via sharingan. 

Saying clones are immune to genjutsu is insane.


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 23, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Well, Grim is wrong in this case then.
> 
> It's impossible for clones to be immune to genjutsu.
> 
> ...


I've seen clones use genjutsu. But can't think of a time a clone got stuck in one


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 24, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Tobirama was an Edo in that instance, and if anyone knows the mechanics of Edo,  he should the most. He could afford to let his body get ripped apart to accomplish something much greater, like placing a seal on Juubito's back. My question isn't whether Tobirama got destroyed,  but rather could he have avoided the attack all together and FTG'D away, and I'm telling you he could. Its illogical to assume he could react to Obito at point blank range ( the explosive seals and the FTG mark) but couldn't move a finger when Obito activated the dash at like 20m away? It becomes obvious that he sacrificed his body to place that seal( which becomes even more clear when one considers his analytical ability, the fact that he's known to catch one off guard, and the fact that he had a well constructed plan right off the jump). He could do one but not the other.
> 
> Placing FTG doesn't have to be a difficult process at all. We know it's slower than regular movement, and for Tobirama to he able to do so, he would have been able to react to the attack before it even got to him. It's clear that he can activate FTG just as fast as he can knead the chakra and move his body to place it. He could have avoided Juubito, but he wouldn't have accomplished anything now would he?
> 
> If Tobirama was alive he would have avoided that attack by warping away. He can also always use a Kage Bunshin in place to accomplish the same thing.


Exactly what i have tried to say in few older posts of mine here and on other Threads!  Absolutely agree with you mate! Good Post!


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 24, 2016)

Clones can be caught but suffer no Effects if I am not worng! They just don't care for what is happening and doesnt suffer any kind of trauma,so basicalyl it is useless to put a Clone Under Gen and waste your Time and Chakra on something which won't feel a thing.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 24, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> More like Itachi used it, realised it was a clone and didn't bother anymore.
> 
> Either that, or Kakashi's clone saw through it or broke the genjutsu via sharingan.


If it is the former, it still doesn't change the fact that Itachi thought the genjutsu didn't/wouldn't work.
If it is the latter, then why would Itachi say that the genjutsu didn't work because it was a bunshin. Makes no sense.



> Saying clones are immune to genjutsu is insane.



I didn't say they are immune, the clone was caught in the genjutsu. I said they are immune to the desired effects, mental trauma in this case.
Although like I said, this was way before Kishimoto came up with the KB carrying over the experience thing. Not sure how that would play out here.
If the experience of Tsukiyomi carries over to the original, the original would be KO'd(regardless of what happens to the bunshin). Which would make using KB's against Itachi alot more riskier than not using them.

But again, going back to the early part 2, neither Kakashi nor the clone were phased by the genjutsu, so it is not very likely.


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## euss6678 (Sep 24, 2016)

Genjutsu gg or amatersu gg or(bonus) toskua blade blitz, you choose. 

Itachi solos

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kaaant (Sep 24, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Think that would be because of sharingan he saw through it
> I don't think clones are immune to genjutsu
> but controlling a clone is pointless



It doesn't matter what you think. 

Because they are.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 24, 2016)

UnjustNation said:


> I don't know why this thread hasn't been locked down yet, both *cctr9* and *emanthespriggan1234* already soloed the thread.
> *5xWinner*, *5xLike*, *2xAgree* combined between the both of them, clearly show the general consensus is Tobirama takes the match.
> 
> *Grimmjowsensei *as usual is wrong again.
> ...



You're using Argumentum ad Populem to justify why this is a one-sided thread which is not how you debate. There are generally topics within manga that originally did have a general consensus that suddenly became more controversial and this makes for a more fallacious argument in general when taking into consideration of the fact that most people within this community literally despise Itachi. If anything, majority believe Itachi would win based on the vast majority having a biased perspective against Itachi rather than looking at the fight objectively.

 Both of the individuals you referred to have contributed literally nothing new to the discussion in all honesty as opposed to Grimmjowsensei who has.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Sep 24, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> You're using Argumentum ad Populem to justify why this is a one-sided thread which is not how you debate. There are generally topics within manga that originally did have a general consensus that suddenly became more controversial and this makes for a more fallacious argument in general when taking into consideration of the fact that most people within this community literally despise Itachi. If anything, majority believe Itachi would win based on the vast majority having a biased perspective against Itachi rather than looking at the fight objectively.
> 
> Both of the individuals you referred to have contributed literally nothing new to the discussion in all honesty as opposed to Grimmjowsensei who has.




I just gave you a "Winner" tag.

Therefore, you have won this thread.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Sep 24, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If it is the former, it still doesn't change the fact that Itachi thought the genjutsu didn't/wouldn't work.
> If it is the latter, then why would Itachi say that the genjutsu didn't work because it was a bunshin. Makes no sense.
> 
> 
> ...




Mental trauma's would still affect clones in the same way it would affect the original. I don't see why clones would be exempt from that considering we've seen clones go through mental strain, fatigue and all other symptoms that a normal human has. 

The fact that Kakashi/or the clone were not phased was either due to 1. Itachi cancelling it because it wouldn't affect the original anyways and it's a waste of time.   Or 2. Sharingan saw through and broke it. After all, it's a clone genjutsu vs clone.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 24, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I just gave you a "Winner" tag.
> 
> Therefore, you have won this thread.


up. The two of you have just soloed this thread. Since I guess 2 people is solo lol


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## TobiramaSS (Sep 25, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> You're using Argumentum ad Populem to justify why this is a one-sided thread which is not how you debate. There are generally topics within manga that originally did have a general consensus that suddenly became more controversial and this makes for a more fallacious argument in general when taking into consideration of the fact that most people within this community literally despise Itachi. If anything, majority believe Itachi would win based on the vast majority having a biased perspective against Itachi rather than looking at the fight objectively.
> 
> Both of the individuals you referred to have contributed literally nothing new to the discussion in all honesty as opposed to Grimmjowsensei who has.


You're problem is in assuming debates are won using arguments, which is not the the case. The point of the debater is not to convince the other side that they're wrong, like that will ever happen but rather to convince the audience (the ones reading) that their side of the argument is the correct one. Unless you don't know how debating works you're the one who ended up using an actual logical fallacy, ad hominem. Yes people do despise Itachi, just as much as people fanboy over him. There are just as much as people biased against him as they're biased towards him. The user you mentioned Grimmjowsensei, as good as a debater he is and I do admire him for his ability to write so eloquently, is one of the most biased people on this site. A short look at his history will easily prove that. Also how the heck did you conclude majority bias=majority secretly believe he'll win. If I am biased against Donald Trump does that mean I secretly believe he'll win. That's just faulty logic.



Sapherosth said:


> I just gave you a "Winner" tag.
> 
> Therefore, you have won this thread.


Last time I checked 5 is still a greater number than one or did you forget the whole point of my argument was the majority rules.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 25, 2016)

UnjustNation said:


> You're problem is in assuming debates are won using arguments, which is not the the case. The point of the debater is not to convince the other side that they're wrong, like that will ever happen but rather to convince the audience (the ones reading) that their side of the argument is the correct one. Unless you don't know how debating works you're the one who ended up using an actual logical fallacy, ad hominem. Yes people do despise Itachi, just as much as people fanboy over him. There are just as much as people biased against him as they're biased towards him. The user you mentioned Grimmjowsensei, as good as a debater he is and I do admire him for his ability to write so eloquently, is one of the most biased people on this site. A short look at his history will easily prove that. *Also how the heck did you conclude majority bias=majority secretly believe he'll win*. If I am biased against Donald Trump does that mean I secretly believe he'll win. That's just faulty logic.



Regardless of what my motives were, you ironically committed that very same logical fallacy that you accused me of by directing your argument towards my motives rather than towards the argument itself and I fail to see how your initial statement made would dispute the fact that you committed a logical fallacy as I presented earlier. Furthermore, debating is a method used to present an argument in a formal manner which requires multiple supporting details for the position you're advocating for yet you did the exact opposite. You provided no substantial evidence and what's worse is that you attempted to enter a debate with a logical fallacy which undermines the credibility of your argument considerably. A fundamental aspect to debating is present an argument in a formal manner to convince the audience and you're literally arguing against it as you choose to believe that a logical fallacy holds more weight than presenting an argument that involves concrete evidence.

The bold isn't something I advocated, I presented that case in the first place because advocating for a logical fallacy that includes a biased community undermines the credibility of your argument. Regardless of what personal beliefs those people actually have, you don't blindly listen to a group of biased people unless they have concrete evidence to support their position. This is clearly common sense and if you're trying to convince the majority of your position, you don't include a biased group of people in your argument because without substantial evidence, their own perspective is highly questionable. Your argument basically functions on a similar logic such as this, "if a person is right most of the time, they're right all of the time" which is clearly wrong.

You haven't provided anything that contributed to the discussion and you circling around my argument doesn't dispute the fact that you presented a fallacious argument.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 25, 2016)

Even MAdara has some fear about Tobirama and Tobirama beats Izuna why Sick İtachi can make any difference to him ? 

Sorry but this site is all about sharingan and itachi.. Im a newbie and ı can tell you that  

Tobirama teleported a mini bijuu dama with his bare hands back there. And his physical dominance and stamina is too much for İTachi..

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Mental trauma's would still affect clones in the same way it would affect the original. I don't see why clones would be exempt from that considering we've seen clones go through mental strain, fatigue and all other symptoms that a normal human has.



If it came down to mental trauma, clone would just pop I think. In most cases they pop from getting poked in the ass with a kunai so they can't withstand mental trauma anyways.



> The fact that Kakashi/or the clone were not phased was either due to 1. Itachi cancelling it because it wouldn't affect the original anyways and it's a waste of time.   Or 2. Sharingan saw through and broke it. After all, it's a clone genjutsu vs clone.



I don't think its the 2nd option. Because Itachi said the genjutsu didn't work because it was a bunshin. Not because Kakashi saw through it and broke it.

1st option sounds more likely, maybe Itachi realized it was a bunshin and cancelled the genjutsu.
But it still doesn't explain why Kakashi was feeling no pain in the genjutsu :  Edo Tensei bodies can be effected by poison
He was super composed, looking completely uneffected.
And he proceeds to grab Itachi :  Edo Tensei bodies can be effected by poison to further indicate that he was not effected.

Even if people realize they are in a genjutsu, that doesn't prevent them from feeling the effects :  Edo Tensei bodies can be effected by poison  Edo Tensei bodies can be effected by poison

And even when the genjutsu was dispelled :  Edo Tensei bodies can be effected by poison Naruto had a moment to get a hold of himself. He wasn't completely uneffected.

The wording is also what throws me off.  "No wonder... I wouldn't expect you to be effected by the genjutsu... This is a kagebunshin."

You could argue that they can't be traumatized because they are aware that they are a bunshin and have no problems suiciding or sacrificing themselves for the original to achieve his/her goals, so they aren't self conscious in the same sense as we are. They don't fear death.

So mentally, the KB and the Original aren't exactly the same. So something that works on the original may not work on the bunshin.

Actually, I think I may have found the answer.


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## The All Unknowing (Sep 25, 2016)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Even MAdara has some fear about Tobirama and Tobirama beats Izuna why Sick İtachi can make any difference to him ?
> 
> Sorry but this site is all about sharingan and itachi.. Im a newbie and ı can tell you that
> 
> Tobirama teleported a mini bijuu dama with his bare hands back there. And his physical dominance and stamina is too much for İTachi..


Problem with that comparison is that the only fight we ever saw with Izuna, was Tobirama carving him like a Christmas turkey. So there's absolutely nothing to compare him with


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## Sapherosth (Sep 25, 2016)

UnjustNation said:


> You're problem is in assuming debates are won using arguments, which is not the the case. The point of the debater is not to convince the other side that they're wrong, like that will ever happen but rather to convince the audience (the ones reading) that their side of the argument is the correct one. Unless you don't know how debating works you're the one who ended up using an actual logical fallacy, ad hominem. Yes people do despise Itachi, just as much as people fanboy over him. There are just as much as people biased against him as they're biased towards him. The user you mentioned Grimmjowsensei, as good as a debater he is and I do admire him for his ability to write so eloquently, is one of the most biased people on this site. A short look at his history will easily prove that. Also how the heck did you conclude majority bias=majority secretly believe he'll win. If I am biased against Donald Trump does that mean I secretly believe he'll win. That's just faulty logic.
> 
> 
> Last time I checked 5 is still a greater number than one or did you forget the whole point of my argument was the majority rules.




Those 5 people are liking each other's post everyday lol

"Itachi fans " don't do it as much. 

If You actually read through the thread, there's a lot of people arguing for Itachi.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Sep 25, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If it came down to mental trauma, clone would just pop I think. In most cases they pop from getting poked in the ass with a kunai so they can't withstand mental trauma anyways.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Do you remember when Killer Bee got stabbed by Sasuke's genjutsu? 

Killer Bee got up from that and recovered instantly.

I think It's more to do with how strong their will are. Kakashi definitely isn't lacking in that department. So I don't think the fact that the kagebunshin/original acting unfazed was because they're immune, but because their mental strength was strong enough to keep going.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Sep 25, 2016)

Only true and feat wise statements are belongs to uchihabois ... The Statements and feats of other characters are just poor writing or fanservice. Just your favorite sharinganguy's feats and statements are solid   I feel sorry to see this pattern even in this forum.

(I'm not just talking about for this topic. Mostly every topic is like that. Even itachi is not a opponent of the fight still all arguments is try to put higher him  This is just sad. 

Jiraiya's statements is comes from poor writing and fanservice.
Tobirama's are not good enough and feats are few.
etc etc.. Every topic ı saw (not like every but mostly) is always heir the dojutsu user (specially Uchiha). But this guy Tobirama is one of the greatest Uchiha Hunter maybe in history. He did resolved and studied even how uchiha's brain and chakra system works ?! So this guy is not going to die against 20-21 age sick prodigy like it was nothing.. (I'm not sayin İtachi is a weak link he is greatly dangerous specially when it comes to 1 vs 1 but still. Tobirama is a special Kage (not like Mei or Kakashi). İtachi is good but his stamina is poor, variety is limited and pretty predictable.

Now you can scorch me

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 1


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## Serene Grace (Sep 25, 2016)

Why so much hate on Tobirama's part? Is it because he bodied a fellow Uchiha with MS, or nah?

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Do you remember when Killer Bee got stabbed by Sasuke's genjutsu?
> 
> Killer Bee got up from that and recovered instantly.


B still fell flat on his face. And Sasuke used a paralyzation genjutsu similar to Magen: Kasegui, I'd expect it to be less painful than being burned alive. And likely it was dispelled pretty much instantly, so B wasn't fully exposed to it.



> I think It's more to do with how strong their will are. Kakashi definitely isn't lacking in that department. So I don't think the fact that the kagebunshin/original acting unfazed was because they're immune, but because their mental strength was strong enough to keep going.



If will power was the key then Tsukiyomi wouldn't put Kakashi down.
Or Sasuke wouldn't scream when his eye was plucked out nor he would fall on his knee when he dispelled the genjutsu. The pain you feel during the genjutsu is real, you surely can resist it, but you can't ignore it.
Shikimaru's dad flat out tells us as much
vs
Shikimaru's dad flat out tells us as much

Kakashi shows no discomfort. It doesn't seem like Kakashi is resisting the pain. It seems like he doesn't feel it.


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## Sapherosth (Sep 25, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> B still fell flat on his face. And Sasuke used a paralyzation genjutsu similar to Magen: Kasegui, I'd expect it to be less painful than being burned alive. And likely it was dispelled pretty much instantly, so B wasn't fully exposed to it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bee was stabbed by countless spikes. That's pretty painful. He also dispelled it after being stabbed. So Killer Bee should've felt the effects but brushed it off immediately.

C was hit by a similar genjutsu, and he was feeling the effects of it much more than Killer Bee did. We can only deduce that the difference between them here is their mental strength or pain tolerance.


Will power is still part of the portion. It was the reason why Kakashi's mind wasn't completely destroyed. Kisame even suggested as much.


This page pretty much says Tsukuyomi is Shadow clones weakness.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Bee was stabbed by countless spikes. That's pretty painful. He also dispelled it after being stabbed. So Killer Bee should've felt the effects but brushed it off immediately.
> 
> C was hit by a similar genjutsu, and he was feeling the effects of it much more than Killer Bee did. We can only deduce that the difference between them here is their mental strength or pain tolerance.



Again the difference is, B was exposed to it very briefly. On the other hand, C took the full brunt of it.

For example if Itach tortured Kakashi for 2 hours, it would likely have a lighter effect compared to the 72 hour version.

The more you are exposed to harm, the more severe the effect will be.



> Will power is still part of the portion. It was the reason why Kakashi's mind wasn't completely destroyed. Kisame even suggested as much.



It was also implied that Itachi did go easy on him.
Willpower definitely plays a role. But like I said, it plays a role in resisting the pain and recovery. You can't ignore the pain though.



> This page pretty much says Tsukuyomi is Shadow clones weakness.



We saw that Kakashi's clone was completely unphased by the genjutsu and when it popped, Kakashi didn't seem to feel anthing though.

But like I already said, this was before the idea of KB's chakra returning to the original along with the new experience and whatever else it is carrying over.
So I agree that this is actually a legit point that needs to be looked into.


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## Veracity (Sep 27, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Hmmm, now that I think about it, it does make sense. Well done.
> 
> There is one thing that I disagree with though, which is the last sentence where you said he can use a kage bunshin in his place to accomplish the same thing. Don't forget that Kage bunshins are slower than their originals.



You're right. His clone probably couldn't pull off the same feat against Juubito. But consider that his clones are indeed fast(able to warp in and place hands on Juubitos shoulder), on top of the fact that Edo Tobirama is slower than Alive Tobirama, on top of the fact that Juubito is tiers above Itachi in speed/reactions, and its becomes clear that even Tobirama's Kage Bunshin has a chance of seriously catching Itachi off guard. But then again I'm not necessarily sure if you're arguing against that, I haven't been reading earlier posts.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Sapherosth (Sep 27, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> You're right. His clone probably couldn't pull off the same feat against Juubito. But consider that his clones are indeed fast(able to warp in and place hands on Juubitos shoulder), on top of the fact that Edo Tobirama is slower than Alive Tobirama, on top of the fact that Juubito is tiers above Itachi in speed/reactions, and its becomes clear that even Tobirama's Kage Bunshin has a chance of seriously catching Itachi off guard. But then again I'm not necessarily sure if you're arguing against that, I haven't been reading earlier posts.




All of it was only possible because the mark was already on Juubito, that was only possible at the cost of Tobirama's life. I also don't remember it being mentioned anywhere that Alive Tobirama or any other ninja for that matter is faster when they were alive. I only remember that the 4 Hokage's were revived at almost full strength. Not almost full speed. 

The feats against Juubito is over inflated massively because we see other individuals keeping up with it afterwards as well.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 27, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> All of it was only possible because the mark was already on Juubito, that was only possible at the cost of Tobirama's life. I also don't remember it being mentioned anywhere that Alive Tobirama or any other ninja for that matter is faster when they were alive. I only remember that the 4 Hokage's were revived at almost full strength. Not almost full speed.
> 
> The feats against Juubito is over inflated massively because we see other individuals keeping up with it afterwards as well.


Look his older post to see what he meant! And it is canon that Alive Shinobi is stronger than his Edo Self,which implies all stats even speed.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Sapherosth (Sep 27, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Look his older post to see what he meant! And it is canon that Alive Shinobi is stronger than his Edo Self,which implies all stats even speed.




I am waiting for evidence here.......

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 27, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I am waiting for evidence here.......


You mean the part where Tobirama said he brought then back to live much closer to their original in live Power that last time!? Which implies they still weren't as strong as they used to be!? And With weaker Power Level it means  they were basically weaker in every aspect,whcih includes all their abilities!?

Reactions: Like 3


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 27, 2016)

The majority of the Edo Tensei revived by Kabuto were brought back at full power with a few exceptions of course.

Some quick examples:

Full power and better when they were alive:
Itachi - no disease, no fading eyesight,  no chakra problems
Minato - brought back at full power and with access to KCM
Madara - yes and no. Kabuto enhanced his body but his rinnegan eyes were inferior to his original

Brought back weaker:
Hiruzen - past his prime as we saw him in real life
Hanzo - "rusty"
Seven swords men - that is until they received weapons
Sasori - like seriously....

Then we have statements such as onoki stating Muu jinton was just as powerful as when he was alive

The only true ones brought back weaker were Hashirama and Tobirama as his statement applies to only them per the first revival.  Would make no sense to include Minato and Sarutobi in that statement since they would have no idea how powerful Sarutobis prime level was or who Minato even was.

The question should be why did Kishu gimp Tobirama and Hashirama. It was the end of the manga why not show there true powers...not like it would have mattered in the long run anyways

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Sapherosth (Sep 27, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> You mean the part where Tobirama said he brought then back to live much closer to their original in live Power that last time!? Which implies they still weren't as strong as they used to be!? And With weaker Power Level it means  they were basically weaker in every aspect,whcih includes all their abilities!?




Nothing about "speed" here......Unless Power = Speed now, eh?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Veracity (Sep 27, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> All of it was only possible because the mark was already on Juubito, that was only possible at the cost of Tobirama's life. I also don't remember it being mentioned anywhere that Alive Tobirama or any other ninja for that matter is faster when they were alive. I only remember that the 4 Hokage's were revived at almost full strength. Not almost full speed.
> 
> The feats against Juubito is over inflated massively because we see other individuals keeping up with it afterwards as well.



What? It was possible at the cost of Tobirama's EDO life that he took advantage of. He certainly wouldn't be able to create Kage Bunshin in that short time frame against someone much faster than V2 Ay. Point is, that circumstance stands for a lot more pressure than anything someone like Itachi can muster. Still, we've seen that even with an FTG mark, the individual tagged still has time to react; BSM Naruto and BM Minato not being able to land their coordinated attack on Juubito.

Strength and speed coincide. I think it was pretty clear that Alive Madara was faster than his Edo incarnation, when he got that massive jump on Sage Naruto. Alive Tobirama is faster and stronger than Edo Tobirama. It might not be a sizable gap but the gap is there. 

Nobody could lay hands on Juubito without FTG or another teammate helping them. And if you mean Individuals like EMS Sasuke, BSM Naruto or KCM Minato, then they are clearly on different speed realms then Itachi. And even they still didn't physically place hands on the God Tier.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 27, 2016)

Alive Itachi should be faster too though.


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## Veracity (Sep 27, 2016)

He


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Alive Itachi should be faster too though.


But he's got questionable stamina and an illness. 

Eventually the argument turns into how powerful "healthy Itachi " is perceived to be and exactly how his Edo body effected his illness.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 27, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> He
> 
> But he's got questionable stamina and an illness.
> 
> Eventually the argument turns into how powerful "healthy Itachi " is perceived to be and exactly how his Edo body effected his illness.



The thing is, Itachi was in the last stage of his terminal illness when he fought Sasuke. Obito said that he pumped himself with medicine to stay alive. He also said his time was short. Meaning Itachi fought Sasuke at the very end.
Had that fight taken place a week before, he would be in a much better shape. People with terminal illness are usually at their worst in their last days. So even days can make a significant difference in their health.
Unless this the same Itachi that was fighting Sasuke arguably in his last days, his performance will not suffer so bad, thus his stamina will be alot better.
Thats usually the misconception with alive Itachi. People assume he'll fight like he is in his deathbed all the time.
We know for a fact that Zetsu saw a healthy Itachi at some point and he clearly said Itachi should have been much more powerful. He also implied that he should have been alot faster.

His edo body negated illness I believe, because it is constantly regenerating. So edo Itachi is basically Itachi without his illness. 
Although the same physical increase that applies to every other Edo would apply to Itachi if he was alive.


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## Veracity (Sep 27, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The thing is, Itachi was in the last stage of his terminal illness when he fought Sasuke. Obito said that he pumped himself with medicine to stay alive. He also said his time was short. Meaning Itachi fought Sasuke at the very end.
> Had that fight taken place a week before, he would be in a much better shape. People with terminal illness are usually at their worst in their last days. So even days can make a significant difference in their health.
> Unless this the same Itachi that was fighting Sasuke arguably in his last days, his performance will not suffer so bad, thus his stamina will be alot better.
> Thats usually the misconception with alive Itachi. People assume he'll fight like he is in his deathbed all the time.
> ...



So essentially Edo Itachi would be just as fast and reflexive as Alive Itachi. His Edo incarnation being slower is kinda negated by the fact that his Edo negates him ever having an illness. The Itachi vs Sasuke fight Itachi was much slower and less reflexive then his Edo incarnation so I take it that Edo Itachi is closer to his alive form.


I've also heard quite of bit speculation on whether Itachi died of the illness or because he abused his chakra reserves.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 27, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> So essentially Edo Itachi would be just as fast and reflexive as Alive Itachi. His Edo incarnation being slower is kinda negated by the fact that his Edo negates him ever having an illness. The Itachi vs Sasuke fight Itachi was much slower and less reflexive then his Edo incarnation so I take it that Edo Itachi is closer to his alive form.


No he wouldn't be. But he wouldn't have that backlash from his illness which kicked in when Itachi started exerting himself.
So alive Itachi would start out faster than Edo Itachi regardless.
And assume that he isn't in his deathbed, that moment wouldn't come until way too deep into the fight.


> I've also heard quite of bit speculation on whether Itachi died of the illness or because he abused his chakra reserves.



There is nothing speculative about it, it is stated in the databook and the manga.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 27, 2016)

I actually can't believe people are trying to make Itachi equal or even superior to people like Minato,Tobirama,A4,A3 who are Specific known and hyped for their Immense Speed,Reactions and Reflexes...while Itachi is nothing more thab Agile with impressive Speed sure but nowhere near those mentioned Above!!! Itachi was Hyped for his Genjutsu and Shuriken Jutsu...and Totsuka amd Yata as a good Combo,and Zetsu Statement about Itachi that should have been able to Dodge Sasuke Shuriken Trick which is mostly Agile Feat than Speed considering those Shuriken weren't flying with some extraordinary Speed or anything like it....

Reactions: Like 2


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 27, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> I actually can't believe people are trying to make Itachi equal or even superior to people like Minato,Tobirama,A4,A3 who are Specific known and hyped for their Immense Speed,Reactions and Reflexes...while Itachi is nothing more thab Agile with impressive Speed sure but nowhere near those mentioned Above!!! Itachi was Hyped for his Genjutsu and Shuriken Jutsu...and Totsuka amd Yata as a good Combo,and Zetsu Statement about Itachi that should have been able to Dodge Sasuke Shuriken Trick which is mostly Agile Feat than Speed considering those Shuriken weren't flying with some extraordinary Speed or anything like it....



The issue with that is that Itachi was also praised for his speed even among Sharingan users. Minato's level of speed wouldn't warrant such praise without Hiraishin and Itachi's foresight and mental acuity is something that sets him apart from every single ninja in the manga, including Minato.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 27, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> The issue with that is that Itachi was also praised for his speed even among Sharingan users. Minato's level of speed wouldn't warrant such praise.


Where exactly have Itachi been praised for his Physical Speed or Shunshin Speed among the Sharingan Users!? Not to mention the guys I listed are way above Sharingan Users Speed bar A3 or Shisui probably!? 

Or you mean Itachi hand Seals Speed which has nothing to do with his Movement Speed or Dodging Speed,just fast Hands Specialized in Quck Seal making!


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 27, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Where exactly have Itachi been praised for his Physical Speed or Shunshin Speed among the Sharingan Users!? Not to mention the guys I listed are way above Sharingan Users Speed bar A3 or Shisui probably!?
> 
> Or you mean Itachi hand Seals Speed which has nothing to do with his Movement Speed or Dodging Speed,just fast Hands Specialized in Quck Seal making!



I'll do you one better, where in the manga suggests that Minato's physical speed is superhuman even in front of a Sharingan user because I can assure you, there is no such thing.

To address this, Itachi's ninjutsu execution has everything to do with high reaction speed as was the case against Kakashi and Sasuke. Against Kakashi, Itachi had the *reaction speed needed to simultaneously *launch Shurikens as a decoy whilst launching a Suiton attack against Kakashi while against Sasuke, Itachi managed to easily outpace Hebi Sasuke's reaction speed by swapping with a clone in the midst of an intensive skirmish between the two with Sasuke failing to keep track of the original Itachi. Minato literally has nothing that suggests his reaction speed can outpace even the most Elite Sharingan Users as opposed to Itachi who does and his strength wasn't conceived by the author as something as extraordinary as it was in the War Arc.

That's rather telling that Itachi is physically faster than Minato.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 27, 2016)

Minato Shunshined and grabbed Naruto from Obito with ease... but you know what!? I give up,it is pointless to try and explain this things to an Uchiha fan and even more Itachi fan.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 27, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Minato Shunshined and grabbed Naruto from Obito with ease... but you know what!? I give up,it is pointless to try and explain this things to an Uchiha fan and even more Itachi fan.



Which is what Obito expected. He didn't appear as a flash at all by Obito's perspective, but nonetheless, I was referring to reaction speed, not Shunshin and Shunshin alone doesn't encompass reaction speed.

Okay, I accept your concession. You're just like all of the other Minato fanboys which is quite disappointing because I would've enjoyed a sophisticated discussion with you. Resorting to ad hominem attacks isn't an effective way to present your argument, so I guess we're done here.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 27, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Which is what Obito expected. He didn't appear as a flash at all by Obito's perspective, but nonetheless, I was referring to reaction speed, not Shunshin and Shunshin alone doesn't encompass reaction speed.
> 
> Okay, I accept your concession. You're just like all of the other Minato fanboys which is quite disappointing because I would've enjoyed a sophisticated discussion with you. Resorting to ad hominem attacks isn't an effective way to present your argument, so I guess we're done here.


Me Minato fanboy!? Haha you are so far from the truth that it is hilarious. If I was Minato fanboy I wouldn't have had the opinion that Tobirama is stronger....just look at my Top Favouritea and all...

I like both Minato and Itachi equally....both have amazing background stories and in fact I admire Itachi more with his self sacrifice and the way he lived his life.  But I just try to be objective and in my opinion Minato is the superior Shinobi here.

Reactions: Like 2


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 27, 2016)

@Second Hokage Tobirama 

 You're not being objective because you're not even giving me a chance to debate with you which is exactly how most Minato fanboys are like. The fact that you resorted to ad hominem attacks made me lose respect for you. I didn't have much of an issue with your argument until you avoided my argument altogether and then presented an argument that not only had nothing to do with what I presented, but you also failed to connect it to Itachi and elaborate on how it signifies Minato's superiority over him.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 27, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> @Second Hokage Tobirama
> 
> You're not being objective because you're not even giving me a chance to debate with you which is exactly how most Minato fanboys are like. The fact that you resorted to ad hominem attacks made me lose respect for you. I didn't have much of an issue with your argument until you avoided my argument altogether and then presented an argument that not only had nothing to do with what I presented, but you also failed to connect it to Itachi and elaborate on how it signifies Minato's superiority over him.


Minato whole Character is based on Speed,while Itachi on Genjutsu and Shuriken Jutsu mate,so saying Itachi is Faster or can deal easily with FTG is just not logical for me.

Minato has FTG,Temporary SM,Fuinjutsu,S/T Barriers,Barriers like whole,more Experience and even better Stamina and Chakra,and when you add Summons for assistance and Distractions plus Skillful use of Kahe Bunshin....although close in Intelligence I still view Minato as slightly superior especially with more Exp.
To me this is enough to conclude that he can defeat Itachi.

I have all the respect for you...but I just think you are overeating Itachi in the this case thats all.


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## Veracity (Sep 27, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No he wouldn't be. But he wouldn't have that backlash from his illness which kicked in when Itachi started exerting himself.
> So alive Itachi would start out faster than Edo Itachi regardless.
> And assume that he isn't in his deathbed, that moment wouldn't come until way too deep into the fight.
> 
> ...



Itachi's illness was effecting him before his fight with Sasuke, so I don't agree with that.

When was that stated


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 27, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Minato whole Character is based on Speed,while Itachi on Genjutsu and Shuriken Jutsu mate,so saying Itachi is Faster or can deal easily with FTG is just not logical for me.
> 
> Minato has FTG,Temporary SM,Fuinjutsu,S/T Barriers,Barriers like whole,more Experience and even better Stamina and Chakra,and when you add Summons for assistance and Distractions plus Skillful use of Kahe Bunshin....although close in Intelligence I still view Minato as slightly superior especially with more Exp.
> To me this is enough to conclude that he can defeat Itachi.
> ...



 That's being truly dishonest because Kishimoto highlighted Itachi's expertise in the speed department even on his debut. His fighting style certainly incorporates speed in multiple different battles including Kakashi, Sasuke, Killer Bee, and SM Kabuto where he clearly out-maneuvered highly skilled speedsters in the midst of combat. We're not debating on who's superior, we're debating on which one possesses higher reaction speed. Itachi possesses feats that suggest that he can outpace Highly Skilled Sharingan Users and an Elite Sage while Minato possesses nothing that dictates that he's capable of out-maneuvering Sharingan Users.

 I challenge you to present to me a few examples that suggests that Minato's speed on its lonesome is enough to "blitz" Sharingan users because I can assure you, that's not even suggested.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 28, 2016)

Well  I never said Minato will 'Blitz" ITachi outright with his base Physical Speed...all I mean is that Minato has Superior Shunsin Speed enough to give trouble to Itachi and when you add his excellent use of FTG and its Variants it deffinetely tops Itachi. Even Faster and Stronger Opponents were having hard time dealing with FTG let alone all it Variations. And MInato will most certainly be able to Mark Itachi or use some tactic via his Kunais.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 28, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Itachi's illness was effecting him before his fight with Sasuke, so I don't agree with that.


We have no idea to what extend the illness effected him before the fight, and we've only seen declination in Itachi's performance after Itachi started exerted himself during the fight.
But like I said, Itachi fought Sasuke at the very end of his time, so if that fought took place a week before, his condition would have been alot different.




> When was that stated



Link removed

It mentions his disease, and then shows his momenth of death.


DB 3 :


> Realizing his mission and feeling his death approaching, he leaves the light of his dreams to the next generation....



Its pretty clear that his death is directly linked to his disease.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Sep 28, 2016)

Well it says his "death approaching" ,not that he died from the illness in bis fight. The illness most surely handicapped his performance during the fight but since that was his plan all along to fight and die against Sasuke it was nothing troublesome for him,his goal was to survive long enough to push Sasuke to his limits and tak out Oro while seeming he was trying to kill Sasuke till end.

As far as I am concerned if Itachi fled or something he could have lived some time more although limited,I don't think he died in that battle from his illness but rather from exhausting himself to his limits and thanks to that the effects of his illness took even bigger effect.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 29, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Well it says his "death approaching" ,not that he died from the illness in bis fight. The illness most surely handicapped his performance during the fight but since that was his plan all along to fight and die against Sasuke it was nothing troublesome for him,his goal was to survive long enough to push Sasuke to his limits and tak out Oro while seeming he was trying to kill Sasuke till end.
> 
> As far as I am concerned if Itachi fled or something he could have lived some time more although limited,I don't think he died in that battle from his illness but rather from exhausting himself to his limits and thanks to that the effects of his illness took even bigger effect.



Its all speculative. There is enough evidence in the manga that points out that his death was approaching. And given the fact that Itachi chose to fight Sasuke based on that, means that he was basically out of time. If he had weeks or months to live then he could have waited. Also Zetsu basically had no idea about Itachi's illness, which means his condition wasn't like this all the time.

We can't know for sure for how long he would have lived if he didn't exhaust himself, but we know for a fact that he wouldn't have died if he wasn't terminally sick. We've seen his disease effect him real time during his fight. Even if his exhaustion sped up the process, then we can conclude that he would have lasted longer if he wasn't sick, or his the stage of his illness wasn't so severe.
Which was the point I'm making. If that fight had taken place weeks or months earlier, Itachi's performance would have been alot better.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Sep 29, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its all speculative. There is enough evidence in the manga that points out that his death was approaching. And given the fact that Itachi chose to fight Sasuke based on that, means that he was basically out of time. If he had weeks or months to live then he could have waited. Also Zetsu basically had no idea about Itachi's illness, which means his condition wasn't like this all the time.
> 
> We can't know for sure for how long he would have lived if he didn't exhaust himself, but we know for a fact that he wouldn't have died if he wasn't terminally sick. We've seen his disease effect him real time during his fight. Even if his exhaustion sped up the process, then we can conclude that he would have lasted longer if he wasn't sick, or his the stage of his illness wasn't so severe.
> Which was the point I'm making. If that fight had taken place weeks or months earlier, Itachi's performance would have been alot better.




Well it wouldn't really be that much better because Itachi was planning to die by Sasuke's hands and make it a "believable" fight anyway. At the very least he'd hold back far enough to pretend to be on Hebi Sasuke's level or at least a little bit superior to drive Orochimaru out of him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 29, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Well it wouldn't really be that much better because Itachi was planning to die by Sasuke's hands and make it a "believable" fight anyway. At the very least he'd hold back far enough to pretend to be on Hebi Sasuke's level or at least a little bit superior to drive Orochimaru out of him.



I meant overall. 
If he were to fight Sasuke earlier, he'd have to job harder to throw the figh yeah.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Veracity (Sep 29, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> We have no idea to what extend the illness effected him before the fight, and we've only seen declination in Itachi's performance after Itachi started exerted himself during the fight.
> But like I said, Itachi fought Sasuke at the very end of his time, so if that fought took place a week before, his condition would have been alot different.
> 
> 
> ...




You might be right about the physicality part. I thought Itachi was hit by that stray shiruken earlier in the fight, but it seems that was after layered genjutsu, a couple CQC skirmishes, and a Tsukuomi( which clearly effects his chakra and is in extent linked to his physical speed). 

But I still do think the illness was effecting him before that, and if It took Itachi time to master his MS Tehcinques, he was probably in his prime after he had already been diseased. Honestly meaning that aside from chakra, Edo Itachi would still be his strongest incarnation. He might be faster alive I guess, assuming he didn't actually get a faster flicker after he was sick and that it wasn't simply mitigated by his sickness.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 29, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> But I still do think the illness was effecting him before that, and if It took Itachi time to master his MS Tehcinques, he was probably in his prime after he had already been diseased. Honestly meaning that aside from chakra, Edo Itachi would still be his strongest incarnation. He might be faster alive I guess, assuming he didn't actually get a faster flicker after he was sick and that it wasn't simply mitigated by his sickness.



Zetsu's post fight commentary kinda debunks that argument though : Link removed  "I can't even believe it, It doesn't make any sense."
Link removed
"he was hit by attacks he could have dodged easily, and kept coughing blood through the fight."
"maybe he was already badly wounded before Sasuke arrived ?"
"from using the sharingan you mean ? "not necesarily."

First off, we know for a fact that Zetsu saw a healthy incarnation of Itachi or at least heard about him. Because he was able to make a comparison.
Second off, he thought Itachi was badly wounded before the fight. That was the toll Itachi's illness took off of him. It was pretty severe.
We know that Itachi was throwing the fight, but most of Zetsu's comments were directed at the illness.

Tobi adressed the holding back part later on : Link removed

Reactions: Like 2


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## Veracity (Sep 29, 2016)

I'll concede on this debate then lol


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