# Adult Base Sasuke vs. Hashirama



## Ersa (Sep 7, 2015)

*Location*: VOTE
*Distance*: 25m
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Mindset*: IC, intent to kill.
*Conditions*:
- Sasuke is limited to his base arsenal.

Interesting points to consider.
- 
- He has a city-level Chidori and Hashirama has been hurt by kunai before.


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## Alucardemi (Sep 7, 2015)

Kills him with v4 Kusanagi throw.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 7, 2015)

Hashirama one shots with the flower world. No feat exists which allows base sasuke to compete with base hashirama.


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## tkpirate (Sep 8, 2015)

is Hashi able to use sage mode?if he is,then he wins.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 8, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> is Hashi able to use sage mode?if he is,then he wins.


Sasuke was moving at the same speed as RSM Naruto. He blitzes Hashi and cuts his head off.


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## tkpirate (Sep 8, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sasuke was moving at the same speed as RSM Naruto. He blitzes Hashi and cuts his head off.



don't think Sasuke will try to blitz from the start.also the starting distance is 25m,and Sasuke isn't 25 times faster than Hashi.


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## Kyu (Sep 8, 2015)

> -



I'm a bit skeptical whether or not that holds up.

Sasuke actually 'matched' RSM in speed when he and Naruto saved Sakura from Madara. Later on, he's no faster than base Naruto in their fight.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 8, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> don't think Sasuke will try to blitz from the start.also the starting distance is 25m,and Sasuke isn't 25 times faster than Hashi.



Actually I can perfectly believe that.

Nine-Tails Chakra Mode is quite a bit faster than Hashirama alone; Bijū Mode many times faster than that, and Six Paths Sage Mode faster than that tenfold. And that's referring to Naruto as a _teenager_, logic dictates he's upped his speed in the decades since then.

Saying Sasuke blitzes at this distance is reasonable, if not likely. At the very least, Hashirama isn't going to have enough time to make a seal, let alone actually *hit* him with any techniques.


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## KamiKira (Sep 8, 2015)

Bro ....what the hell is "base sasuke" ? dude can't deactivate his rinnegan, do you know that?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 8, 2015)

KamiKira said:


> Bro ....what the hell is "base sasuke" ? dude can't deactivate his rinnegan, do you know that?


He's still physically far faster than Hashirama.


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## Zef (Sep 8, 2015)

Sasuke blitzes.


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## Trojan (Sep 8, 2015)

Sasuke probably trashes him.
but at the same time, I honestly doubt that would be the case. 

Who knows.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 8, 2015)

Sasuke speedblitz Hashirama.


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## Ghost (Sep 8, 2015)

Sasuke blitzes and one shots with Chidori.


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## Ersa (Sep 8, 2015)

You know power levels are fucked when the former God of Shinobi loses to base Sasuke


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## Ghost (Sep 8, 2015)

That's why he is the former.


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## Itachi san88 (Sep 8, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> You know power levels are fucked when the former God of Shinobi loses to base Sasuke


Thanks to Kishimoto and his love for Dragon Ball which destroyed the manga. 

Naruto and Sasuke can now do everything with their powers donated from Rikudou because yes.

Base Sasuke has still chakra of Rikudou,  wins.


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## Zensuki (Sep 8, 2015)

Sasuke's too quick for Hashi.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 8, 2015)

Sasuke run up with katana in hand and take hashirama's neck off no diff. He got speed on par with adult SPSM naruto.


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## Hachibi (Sep 8, 2015)

RIP in piece Hashi

Your days of being above Base Naruto/Base Sasuke are over.


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## ~M~ (Sep 8, 2015)

Pretty sure this thread has been done and closed before, overwhelmingly in favor for sauce


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## Ersa (Sep 8, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Pretty sure this thread has been done and closed before, overwhelmingly in favor for sauce


I've been flamed for claiming base Sasuke was top tier.

It's good to see how the tides turn.


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## Blu-ray (Sep 8, 2015)

Let me add to the chorus and say Hashi gets blitzed. Being a mere 25 meters apart is kinda spite really.


Kyu said:


> I'm a bit skeptical whether or not that holds up.
> 
> Sasuke actually 'matched' RSM in speed when he and Naruto saved Sakura from Madara. Later on, he's no faster than base Naruto in their fight.



Seems pretty comparable, especially since it's safe to assume they were both going top speed here. Even so, being in the same ballpark of speed or hell even a tier below at this distance still means Hashi dies a quick death.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 8, 2015)

Nice to see people saying that sasuke blitzes hashirama when shin was fully capable of reacting to him even when appearing out of amenotejikara.


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## Blu-ray (Sep 8, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> Nice to see people saying that sasuke blitzes hashirama when shin was fully capable of reacting to him even when appearing out of amenotejikara.



Except Shin did no such thing. Sasuke switched places, and Shin reacted to the attack that came afterwards.

Considering Juubi Jin Madara was also outright blitzed by it, yeah. Moot since he won't be using this techniques here though. Just raw speed anyway.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 8, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Except Shin did no such thing. Sasuke switched places, and Shin reacted to the attack that came afterwards.


The opponent doesnt automatically die when amenotejikara is used. Sasuke still has to attack when he appears out of the jutsu and his movement is still easily perceivable as shown when shin grabbed sasukes sword midstrike to mark it.

-sasuke used amenotejikara to get behind shin.
-sasuke attacked.
-shin used his clone to shield himself.

Its no different than what sasuke did to naruto in their initial scuffle.

Sasuke instantly blitzing and killing fellow top tiers is fanfiction.


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## Panther (Sep 8, 2015)

Sasuke only kept up with BSM Naruto's running speed which isn't impressive considering that we have seen throughout the manga shinobi's from different tiers run at the same speed. Even Base Bee kept up with RM Naruto when he was running to the battlefields. Also lets not forget that Base Naruto kept perfectly fine against Base Sasuke speed in base, and to be honest i dodn't see base Naruto's speed blitzing Hashirama. At most i would rate adult Naruto's and Sasuke's speed around SM Madara's lvl.

Not to mention that the fight was like Kn6 vs pain with a lot of PIS. Sasuke being able to blitz momoshiki while running and then Momoshiki is suddently able to react against Ameno and punch Sasuke away while not being able to react against Borito which has genin speed.


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## Blu-ray (Sep 8, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> The opponent doesnt automatically die when amenotejikara is used. Sasuke still has to attack when he appears out of the jutsu and his movement is still easily perceivable as shown when shin grabbed sasukes sword midstrike to mark it.
> 
> -sasuke used amenotejikara to get behind shin.
> -sasuke attacked.
> ...


Of course it's different. Sasuke ported a distance behind Shin and launched a fireball at a distance. Shin only needed to worry about the fireball's movement speed, nothing else.

Naruto on the other hand got tagged point blank from Sasuke teleporting directly behind him. Same with Madara being teleported directly between Sasuke's and Naruto's sandwich attack.

I don't Hashi is perceiving his moment, cause there's a world of difference between the speed used against Shin, and the speed used against Momoshiki


> Sasuke instantly blitzing and killing fellow top tiers is fanfiction.


>Fellow top tier.



Panther said:


> Sasuke only kept up with BSM Naruto's running speed which isn't impressive considering that we have seen throughout the manga shinobi's from different tiers run at the same speed. Even Base Bee kept up with RM Naruto when he was running to the battlefields. Also lets not forget that Base Naruto kept perfectly fine against Base Sasuke speed in base, and to be honest i dodn't see base Naruto's speed blitzing Hashirama. At most i would rate adult Naruto's and Sasuke's speed around SM Madara's lvl.
> 
> Not to mention that the fight was like Kn6 vs pain with a lot of PIS. Sasuke being able to blitz momoshiki while running and then Momoshiki is suddently able to react against Ameno and punch Sasuke away while not being able to react against Borito which has genin speed.



They both went max speed in the initial attempted blitz which uprooted the ground and the Shinjuu. When they were just running, Sasuke pulled ahead and hit first.

Sasuke's intention was to make an opening for Boruto by being a distraction. That he did. He didn't react against Boruto because he didn't even know Boruto was transformed into the sword. 

I don't recall SM Madara or anyone aside from gate users tearing up the landscape by simply moving, and even then never to the degree we see in the movie.


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## tkpirate (Sep 8, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Actually I can perfectly believe that.
> 
> Nine-Tails Chakra Mode is quite a bit faster than Hashirama alone; Bijū Mode many times faster than that, and Six Paths Sage Mode faster than that tenfold. And that's referring to Naruto as a _teenager_, logic dictates he's upped his speed in the decades since then.
> 
> Saying Sasuke blitzes at this distance is reasonable, if not likely. At the very least, Hashirama isn't going to have enough time to make a seal, let alone actually *hit* him with any techniques.



don't see how nine-tails chakra mode is faster than Hashi.as I said I doubt Sasuke is 25 times faster than Hashi.if Hashi can somehow react and summon his giant wood,specially Sinshusenjuu it would be very defficult for Sasuke to kill Hashi with only chidori.


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## tkpirate (Sep 8, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> Nice to see people saying that sasuke blitzes hashirama when shin was fully capable of reacting to him even when appearing out of amenotejikara.


 
well,I think we all know Sasuke and Naruto were nerfed during gaiden because of plot.otherwise it wouldn't make any sense for Shin to fight Naruto and Sasuke without getting blitz and one-shoted.
the same shin who almost got one-shoted by Sakura.you really don't want to use it to support Hashi.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 8, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Of course it's different. Sasuke ported a distance behind Shin and launched a fireball at a distance. Shin only needed to worry about the fireball's movement speed, nothing else.


Maybe this wouldve held some merit if shin hadnt already shown the ability to easily perceive sasukes movement and striking speed. 
However he did. Shin reacting to him makes all arguments for sasuke instakilling fellow top tiers a farce.

All amenotejikara can do is put sasuke in a favorable position just like hiraishin. Its moot most of the time if the opponent can easily react to him.



> Naruto on the other hand got tagged point blank from Sasuke teleporting directly behind him. Same with Madara being teleported directly between Sasuke's and Naruto's sandwich attack.


Naruto turned around and blocked it. Madara only got hit because of their coordination.



> I don't Hashi is perceiving his moment, cause there's a world of difference between the speed used against Shin, and the speed used against Momoshiki


Again, baseless claims which stem from wanting sasuke to be at a level he was never portrayed at.
Naturally you would be able to pull a statement from the manga in which sasuke implies that he held back against shin, wouldnt you?
The only thing that sasuke didnt do against shin was try to kill him. He was dead serious about capturing shin as shown.



tkpirate said:


> well,I think we all know Sasuke and Naruto were nerfed during gaiden because of plot.otherwise it wouldn't make any sense for Shin to fight Naruto and Sasuke without getting blitz and one-shoted.
> the same shin who almost got one-shoted by Sakura.you really don't want to use it to support Hashi.


PIS is just an excuse for when a character doesnt perform according to preconceived and/or bias notions. Sasuke has never shown any speed which allows him to blitz top tiers, so it doesnt happen here either.
The shin incident solidifies this fact even further.


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## Hachibi (Sep 8, 2015)

Yes, because Shin doing as much as he did to Naruto/Sasuke but then have Sakura blitzing him is totally not because of plot.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 8, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Yes, because Shin doing as much as he did to Naruto/Sasuke but then have Sakura blitzing him is totally not because of plot.



Thats not what happened. Sakura hit him when he wasnt even aware of her existence. The notion of Sakura being capable of blitzing shin is contradicted by their fight.


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## tkpirate (Sep 8, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> PIS is just an excuse for when a character doesnt perform according to preconceived and/or bias notions. Sasuke has never shown any speed which allows him to blitz top tiers, so it doesnt happen here either.
> The shin incident solidifies this fact even further.



you're really saying PIS doesn't exists in manga,anime and comics?

we know that Sasuke can keep up with Naruto in speed,we saw that many times.we also know that Naruto is super fast probably in the top 3 in terms of speed in this manga.
and you're saying a fodder like Shin is as fast as Naruto and Sasuke?
also it can be said that Shin was able to keep up with Sasuke only because Sasuke lost his power.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 8, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> you're really saying PIS doesn't exists in manga,anime and comics?
> 
> we know that Sasuke can keep up with Naruto in speed,we saw that many times.we also know that Naruto is super fast probably in the top 3 in terms of speed in this manga.
> and you're saying a fodder like Shin is as fast as Naruto and Sasuke?
> also it can be said that Shin was able to keep up with Sasuke only because Sasuke lost his power.



being able to perceive someones movements and react to them=/=matching their speed overall. Your equivalence fallacy doesnt quite work here. 

Shin is undoubtedly slower than sasuke, but that doesnt mean that sasuke insta kills him via blitz.


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## Blu-ray (Sep 8, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> Maybe this wouldve held some merit if shin hadnt already shown the ability to easily perceive sasukes movement and striking speed.
> However he did. Shin reacting to him makes all arguments for sasuke instakilling fellow top tiers a farce.


Movement from a severely gimped Sasuke. At full speed, which we can see from this movie when he isn't in a chakra deprived state, tears the landscape, melts the ground, and sends god tiers flying. 

Unless this is Gaiden Sasuke, Hashi gets blitzed.



> All amenotejikara can do is put sasuke in a favorable position just like hiraishin. Its moot most of the time if the opponent can easily react to him.


Hashirama can't react to it anyway, so that's also moot. Sasuke won't even be using it in this thread, so that's moot x3


> Naruto turned around and blocked it. Madara only got hit because of their coordination.


Looked more like he tanked it, since he was sent flying with a grunt.

Madara got put in that position due to Ameno shifting him. Naruto didn't play a role in the attack connecting in the first place.

In any case both have reactions and speed far _far_ superior to Hashirama and still got tagged. Them getting tagged and Madara failing to react at all means Hashi doesn't have a prayer. 

Again, this is base Sasuke, so Ameno is irrelevant to the discussion. Focus on how Hashirama deals with a speed that can keep a god tier like Momoshiki pressed.


> Again, baseless claims which stem from wanting sasuke to be at a level he was never portrayed at.
> Naturally you would be able to pull a statement from the manga in which sasuke implies that he held back against shin, wouldnt you?
> The only thing that sasuke didnt do against shin was try to kill him. He was dead serious about capturing shin as shown.



I can give you two actually. Sasuke intending to take him back alive for questioning, and his entire scuffle with Shin being in a extremely chakra depleted state to the point he couldn't even manifest Manegkyo.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hachibi (Sep 8, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Manegkyo.



Is that a new dojutsu? 

Anyways, using the Shin exemple is bad for several reasons:
-They had to capture him (which isn't the case here)
-Both Naruto and Sasuke weren't at full power (which again, isn't the case here)
-They were alot of PIS
-They had to protect the children (which, since he couldn't use the Mangekyou, pretty much made him lost).

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Arles Celes (Sep 8, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> Naruto turned around and blocked it. Madara only got hit because of their coordination.
> 
> 
> Again, baseless claims which stem from wanting sasuke to be at a level he was never portrayed at.
> ...



Naruto could dodge Kaguya's s/t and yet against Sasuke's attack all he could do was block which pushed him back several meters and exposed him to Sasuke's following attacks. Sasuke also blitzed Shinju Madara on his own with the latter complimenting his speed.

And against Shin, Sasuke was not only holding back but was also weakened by traveling through dimensions and being unable to even manifest Susanoo nor even activate his EMS at all. Besides Hashi does not have eyes on his back like Shin.

That said if Kishi wrote it I do not see Base Sasuke casually blitzing Hashi in the opening seconds of the fight but nevertheless winning eventually and without being particularly worn out after beating Hashi.


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## Blu-ray (Sep 8, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Is that a new dojutsu?



Shits all over Rinnegan and Mangekyo. Even Rinne Sharingan can't compare.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 8, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Movement from a severely gimped Sasuke. At full speed, which we can see from this movie when he isn't in a chakra deprived state, tears the landscape, melts the ground, and sends god tiers flying.
> Unless this is Gaiden Sasuke, Hashi gets blitzed.



You are making up pitiful excuses to justify your bias. Sasukes eye powers were weakened due to excessive use of his rinnegan to dimension hop. Thats it

Since when is sending someone back with physical strength impressive especially when you are fighting 2 on 1 and wouldnt have gotten the hit in otherwise?
Im pretty sure kurotsuchi did the same to kinshiki. Does her power dwarf hashiramas as well?




> Hashirama can't react to it anyway, so that's also moot. Sasuke won't even be using it in this thread, so that's moot x3


If i bring up instances where sasuke failed to land a direct hit with his movement speed out of amenotejikara, it is completely relevant.
Hashiramas ability to react to sasukes speed means that him being killed by amenotejikara is close to zero.


> Looked more like he tanked it, since he was sent flying with a grunt.


His arm is in a blocking position which means he blocked it.


> Madara got put in that position due to Ameno shifting him. Naruto didn't play a role in the attack connecting in the first place.
> In any case both have reactions and speed far _far_ superior to Hashirama and still got tagged. Them getting tagged and Madara failing to react at all means Hashi doesn't have a prayer.


Amenotejikara put madara in that position but he only got hit due to his escape options being blocked off by both naruto and sasuke.



> Again, this is base Sasuke, so Ameno is irrelevant to the discussion. Focus on how Hashirama deals with a speed that can keep a god tier like Momoshiki pressed.


He pressed momoshiki in tandem with naruto, so your point is moot. Sasuke by himself was swatted away.



> I can give you two actually. Sasuke intending to take him back alive for questioning, and his entire scuffle with Shin being in a extremely chakra depleted state to the point he couldn't even manifest Manegkyo.


I will have to take this as a concession. Sasuke intending to take shin alive doesnt magically decrease his speed and only sasukes eye powers were stated to be weakened in the gaiden, nothing else.


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## Blu-ray (Sep 8, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> You are making up pitiful excuses to justify your bias. Sasukes eye powers were weakened due to excessive use of his rinnegan to dimension hop. Thats it


And the reason given for that was the large amounts of chakra used.



> Since when is sending someone back with physical strength impressive especially when you are fighting 2 on 1 and wouldnt have gotten the hit in otherwise?




Because of how strong that person is in the first place
Because he wasn't just "sending him back." He was sending him through mountains and into the Shinjuu
Because Hashirama is so much weaker than Momo that doing this much itself means he stands no chance in the first place.



> Im pretty sure kurotsuchi did the same to kinshiki. Does her power dwarf hashiramas as well?



Because Kinshiki is comparable to Momoshiki, and punching him a few meters through branches is the same as punching Momo several hundred through plateaus, amirite.



> If i bring up instances where sasuke failed to land a direct hit with his movement speed out of amenotejikara, it is completely relevant.
> Hashiramas ability to react to sasukes speed means that him being killed by amenotejikara is close to zero.



The only peeps he failed to hit with movement speed out of Ameno was Kaguya and Momoshiki, neither of which Hashirama can be compared to.

Like I said. If this was Gaiden Sasuke, sure. The unrestricted one that rips shit up by moving? Imma need some feats from Hashi on that.



> His arm is in a blocking position which means he blocked it.



His body position looks like it's recoiling from being struck from the hit to me, not to mention he's sent flying, grunts out, and his body is electrified.

In any case, actually tagging Naruto with reactions and speed far superior to Hashi means... eh you know the rest.



> Amenotejikara put madara in that position but he only got hit due to his escape options being blocked off by both naruto and sasuke.



You make it seem like he reacted but just couldn't evade due to being sandwiched or some shit. He got blitzed straight and simple and did escape when he realized his situation. There's not even room for interpretation how straightforward it is.



> He pressed momoshiki in tandem with naruto, so your point is moot. Sasuke by himself was swatted away.


Yes and? Is Hashirama even remotely close to that dude as far as speed, strength and reactions go?




> I will have to take this as a concession. Sasuke intending to take shin alive doesnt magically decrease his speed and only sasukes eye powers were stated to be weakened in the gaiden, nothing else.



The reason for his eye powers being weakened were stated to be the sheer amount of chakra he used in the first place, and that would affect his speed if it's drained to such an extent.

The speed difference then and vs Momoshiki can clearly be seen too.


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## ARGUS (Sep 8, 2015)

Hashirama squashes him like a bug 

Not understanding the wank behind base sasuke when he practically has jack shit on Hashiramas constructs 
He is practically defenseless thus SS or Mokujin would pummel him to dirt, 
He'll even FTW has a chance of soloing since sasuke is not evading nor is he taking out the pollen without Hashirama retaliating

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 8, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> And the reason given for that was the large amounts of chakra used.


Nope. Concession accepted. The only thing that this "chakra loss" was stated to affect was his eye powers. Anything else is conjecture on your part. The excuses you come up with really are convenient.




> Because of how strong that person is in the first place
> Because he wasn't just "sending him back." He was sending him through mountains and into the Shinjuu
> Because Hashirama is so much weaker than Momo that doing this much itself means he stands no chance in the first place.


You are wanking sasuke because he sent momoshiki crashing through rock and chipped the edge of the shinju? You do realize that more shinobi than just sasuke are physically strong enough to do that right? They just wouldnt be capable of hitting momoshiki without support to pull it off.

Also, no. Sasuke did not send momoshiki through mountains. These "mountains" were slightly taller than the shinjus stump and the stump was dwarfed by PS and kurama in size. It doesnt help your argument that he only broke off a miniscule portion of this rock when he sent momoshiki back. these portions were laughably small compared to even the stump.


> Because Kinshiki is comparable to Momoshiki, and punching him a few meters through branches is the same as punching Momo several hundred through plateaus, amirite.


In both instances both parties pulling off these offensive feats have heavy support and are doing this to someone above them in power. Im asking if you think kurotsuchi>>>>>hashirama, because she would be by your logic.
She sent a so called "god tier" whom clashed equally with sasuke through one of the shinjus roots which are pretty sizeable in comparison to the stump.



> The only peeps he failed to hit with movement speed out of Ameno was Kaguya and Momoshiki, neither of which Hashirama can be compared to.
> 
> Like I said. If this was Gaiden Sasuke, sure. The unrestricted one that rips shit up by moving? Imma need some feats from Hashi on that.


The version of sasukes that exists in your distorted version of reality sure, hashirama cannot compete with. 
Im still gonna need that scan that states that anything other than his eye powers were weakened from this "chakra loss". He was using katon, chidori and rinnegan jutsu just fine. If you dont, this point will be dropped and i will take this as a concession. Im tired of having to hear baseless speculation.




> His body position looks like it's recoiling from being struck from the hit to me, not to mention he's sent flying, grunts out, and his body is electrified.
> 
> In any case, actually tagging Naruto with reactions and speed far superior to Hashi means... eh you know the rest.


Um no, hitting naruto doesnt mean that everyone else gets instakilled. Everyone that can react to sasukes movement speed can put up some form of guard before he hits them out of amenotejikara.
Due to even shin competently reacting to his strike and movement speed, that appears to be quite a big laundry list.



> You make it seem like he reacted but just couldn't evade due to being sandwiched or some shit. He got blitzed straight and simple and did escape when he realized his situation. There's not even room for interpretation how straightforward it is.


You cant really fault anyone for not understanding a straightforward scene when you state that sasuke as a whole was weakened during the gaiden, when in reality the only thing stated to be affected was his eye powers. All so you could deny fact to maintain your beliefs.

Sasuke on his lonesome wouldnt hit him. Not when he couldnt land a clean hit on naruto whos sensing and reaction ability is stated to be on par with madaras.
Madara was already knew his situation before he was hit hence the exclamation marks on the previous page before he was hit. He was sandwiched and couldnt evade.



> Yes and? Is Hashirama even remotely close to that dude as far as speed, strength and reactions go?


Umm, neither is sasuke so how is using  feats for when naruto and sasuke attacked him together helping your point?



> The reason for his eye powers being weakened were stated to be the sheer amount of chakra he used in the first place, and that would affect his speed if it's drained to such an extent.
> 
> The speed difference then and vs Momoshiki can clearly be seen too.


No, there are 2 things that you are doing wrong right here. You are simply seeing what you want to believe and you are comparing still images to an animated scene. Gaiden sasuke and movie sasuke are the same character.

You have no sort of basis for your argument, so i can only assume that as a sasuke fan, you dont like his feats being shone under the correct light. You entire argument is conjecture, speculation and treating teamwork feats as solo feats for sasuke.


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## tkpirate (Sep 8, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> being able to perceive someones movements and react to them=/=matching their speed overall. Your equivalence fallacy doesnt quite work here.
> 
> Shin is undoubtedly slower than sasuke, but that doesnt mean that sasuke insta kills him via blitz.



being able to casually react to all attacks and able to hit Sasuke with his own attack means matching Sasuke's speed.  that's why it's PIS,because a fodder like Shin is supposed to get blitz and one-shoted by people who are strongest and fastest in the verse.
your false accusation of fallacy doesn't work here.


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## Blu-ray (Sep 8, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> Nope. Concession accepted. The only thing that this "chakra loss" was stated to affect was his eye powers. Anything else is conjecture on your part. The excuses you come up with really are convenient.



Chakra loss affects everything in general, because jutsu derive their power from how much chakra is pumped into it, and that isn't conjecture. That is a fact, and there are plenty of examples I could cite.

The closest equivalent would be Kaguya's own speed decreasing after using her dimension hop too many times, and her speed reaching new heights when she absorbs the worlds chakra again.


> *You are wanking sasuke because he sent momoshiki crashing through rock and chipped the edge of the shinju?* You do realize that more shinobi than just sasuke are physically strong enough to do that right? They just wouldnt be capable of hitting momoshiki without support to pull it off.



I can't even take the bold seriously. _"He only sent the strongest thing since Kaguya smashing through mountains with punches and kicks. Call me when he does something impressive, and not something everyone can do."_


> Also, no. Sasuke did not send momoshiki through mountains. These "mountains" were slightly taller than the shinjus stump and the stump was dwarfed by PS and kurama in size. It doesnt help your argument that he only broke off a miniscule portion of this rock when he sent momoshiki back these portions being laughably small compared to even the stump.


Okay, he sent Momoshiki _*into*_ the mountains and Shinju. And yes, they are mountains.




> In both instances both parties pulling off these offensive feats have heavy support and are doing this to someone above them in power. Im asking if you think kurotsuchi>>>>>hashirama, because she would be by your logic.
> She sent a so called "god tier" whom clashed equally with sasuke through one of the shinjus roots which are pretty sizeable in comparison to the stump.



No, for the same reason Sakura isn't>>>>Hashirama for punching Kaguya.



> The version of sasukes that exists in your distorted version of reality sure, hashirama cannot compete with.
> Im still gonna need that scan that states that anything other than his eye powers were weakened from this "chakra loss". He was using katon, chidori and rinnegan jutsu just fine. If you dont, this point will be dropped and i will take this as a concession. Im tired of having to hear baseless speculation.



It's an inference made out of the fact that abilities is general are stronger the more chakra one can put into it, (and likewise being chakra drained weakens them) and that movie Sasuke has feats clearly beyond what he showed in Gaiden.

Feel free to ignore this too though.


> Um no, hitting naruto doesnt mean that everyone else gets instakilled. Everyone that can react to sasukes movement speed can put up some form of guard before he hits them out of amenotejikara.
> Due to even shin competently reacting to his strike and movement speed, that appears to be quite a big laundry list.


Not everyone. Just everyone with speed and reactions below Naruto and without a strong enough defense to withstand it. In other words, Hashirama.

This whole discussion has become Hashirama vs Ameno when it's not even gonna be used...


> You cant really fault anyone for not understanding a straightforward scene when you state that sasuke as a whole was weakened during the gaiden, when in reality the only thing stated to be affected was his eye powers. All so you could deny fact to maintain your beliefs.


He said his eyes were weakened, and using up a shit ton of chakra to be the cause. Jutsu and even physical abilities to an extent are affected by how much or how little chakra a person has. He's also much slower than he is in the movie, where is isn't chakra drained. It's as simple as putting 2 and 2 together.



> Sasuke on his lonesome wouldnt hit him. Not when he couldnt land a clean hit on naruto whos sensing and reaction ability is stated to be on par with madaras.


Except he did hit Naruto.



> Madara was already knew his situation before he was hit hence the exclamation marks on the previous page before he was hit. He was sandwiched and couldnt evade.



Exclamation marks are used to denote the exact opposite... that they're completely surprised and off guard. How this tells you Madara knew what was happening is beyond me.



> Umm, neither is sasuke so how is using  feats for when naruto and sasuke attacked him together helping your point?


Yes he is, or else he wouldn't be hitting him at all, let alone so many times.



> No, there are 2 things that you are doing wrong right here. You are simply seeing what you want to believe and you are comparing still images to an animated scene. Gaiden sasuke and movie sasuke are the same character.



Gaiden Sasuke was nerfed. Movie Sasuke was not. Movie Sasuke tearing up landscape by moving and with punches and kicks. Gaiden Sasuke was not. Them's the facts. Dunno what comparing still images or whatever that's supposed to mean has to do with anything.



> You have no sort of basis for your argument, so i can only assume that as a sasuke fan, you dont like his feats being shone under the correct light. You entire argument is conjecture, speculation and treating teamwork feats as solo feats for sasuke.



You're the same dude that said all of this...

And you actually come to me with that "hurr durr ur just a fanboi" shit? Bitch please.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 8, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> being able to casually react to all attacks and able to hit Sasuke with his own attack means matching Sasuke's speed.  that's why it's PIS,because a fodder like Shin is supposed to get blitz and one-shoted by people who are strongest and fastest in the verse.
> your false accusation of fallacy doesn't work here.



Shin isnt overall as fast as sasuke just because he reacted to him. That makes zero sense. By that logic, madara is as fast as 8th gate gai and that clearly isnt the case. Yes, your argument is fallacious to the point of being cancerous.


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## ueharakk (Sep 9, 2015)

IIRC, Naruto's blitzing feats came from his use of shunshin, not from his running feats which is what Sasuke was matching in the Boruto movie.

If Sasuke can use shunshin on par with naruto, Hashirama definitely gets blitzed before he can do anything since he's not faster, nor does he have better reactions *than kaguya.*

If Sasuke can still run on par with naruto, that still probably means Hashirama gets blitzed from that distance, but instead of a speed blitz, it might be a blitz where hashi perceives Sasuke, but simply can't do anything about it considering he can't bring out anything that can save him from a mountain-busting chidori in that small window of time.  Juubi jin madara calls Sasuke fast, and in the Last, Naruto's running speed is on par with Toneri's, someone who fights on the level of a juubi jin and we know the weakest juubi jin's non-shunshin speed was so fast that BSM Naruto could barely even track it.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 9, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Chakra loss affects everything in general, because jutsu derive their power from how much chakra is pumped into it, and that isn't conjecture. That is a fact, and there are plenty of examples I could cite.
> 
> The closest equivalent would be Kaguya's own speed decreasing after using her dimension hop too many times, and her speed reaching new heights when she absorbs the worlds chakra again.


Already countered.



> I can't even take the bold seriously. _"He only sent the strongest thing since Kaguya smashing through mountains with punches and kicks. Call me when he does something impressive, and not something everyone can do."_
> 
> Okay, he sent Momoshiki _*into*_ the mountains and Shinju. And yes, they are mountains.


Can you read? Multiple characters possess the physical strength to do what sasuke did. They however, wouldnt be capable of landing a hit on momoshiki.

No, it isnt a mountain. Its just a very big rock structure, nothing more. PS is much taller than both it and the shinju stump. im not sure why you cant understand something so simple.

Sasuke sent him into the rock formation which chipped off a small portion of the structure. 




> No, for the same reason Sakura isn't>>>>Hashirama for punching Kaguya.


Then stop claiming that sasuke blitzes hashirama just because he hit momoshiki with help from naruto.




> It's an inference made out of the fact that abilities is general are stronger the more chakra one can put into it, (and likewise being chakra drained weakens them) and that movie Sasuke has feats clearly beyond what he showed in Gaiden.
> 
> Feel free to ignore this too though.


Yup, I will ignore this since i already countered this point. Thanks for understanding 


> Not everyone. Just everyone with speed and reactions below Naruto and without a strong enough defense to withstand it. In other words, Hashirama.
> 
> This whole discussion has become Hashirama vs Ameno when it's not even gonna be used...


Amenotejikara isnt bijudama. Hashirama needs no specialized defense to guard from sasukes strike. You dont need narutos level of sensing to react to sasukes speed as blatantly shown in the manga.



> He said his eyes were weakened, and using up a shit ton of chakra to be the cause. Jutsu and even physical abilities to an extent are affected by how much or how little chakra a person has. He's also much slower than he is in the movie, where is isn't chakra drained. It's as simple as putting 2 and 2 together.


already countered.



> Except he did hit Naruto.



Naruto turned around and blocked with his arm, but if you want to argue semantics, sure.



> Exclamation marks are used to denote the exact opposite... that they're completely surprised and off guard. How this tells you Madara knew what was happening is beyond me.


The exclamation marks are before their combo attack hit, which means that madara perceived his situation before their attacks landed. He was surprised that he was suddenly inbetween the both of them, not that they hit him. Thats all.



> Yes he is, or else he wouldn't be hitting him at all, let alone so many times.


And sasuke wasnt hitting him when he fought momoshiki by himself.




> Gaiden Sasuke was nerfed. Movie Sasuke was not. Movie Sasuke tearing up landscape by moving and with punches and kicks. Gaiden Sasuke was not. Them's the facts. Dunno what comparing still images or whatever that's supposed to mean has to do with anything.


Why dont you just say that movie sasuke>>gaiden sasuke because you think he "looks faster"?

Thats more direct than me having to constantly disprove your little conspiracy theory which didnt have a leg to stand on anyway.

This claim will be thrown out the window just like your other baseless claims.



> You're the same dude that said all of this...
> 
> 
> And you actually come to me with that "hurr durr ur just a fanboi" shit? Bitch please.


And this is based on VOTE 1s clash being bigger than the PS chidori+bijudama clash. Its irrelevant here anyway.


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## Ersa (Sep 9, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Hashirama squashes him like a bug
> 
> Not understanding the wank behind base sasuke when he practically has jack shit on Hashiramas constructs
> He is practically defenseless thus SS or Mokujin would pummel him to dirt,
> He'll even FTW has a chance of soloing since sasuke is not evading nor is he taking out the pollen without Hashirama retaliating


Ask yourself if Hashirama can summon SS or any construct in the time it takes RSM Naruto to charge at him.

I'm inclined to say he doesn't. In fact I'd bank on the Shinju-powered Momoshiki to have better reactions then him.


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## Blu-ray (Sep 9, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> Already countered.


Where?



> Can you read? Multiple characters possess the physical strength to do what sasuke did. They however, wouldnt be capable of landing a hit on momoshiki.



Sakura. That's literally it. The rest that can do it are the god tiers which obviously goes without saying, and they can connect with their own speed anyway.



> No, it isnt a mountain. Is just a very big rock structure, nothing more. PS is much taller than both it and the shinju stump. im not sure why you cant understand something so simple.



I said it is a mountain, because it meets the actual definition of the word. There's not a world wide accepted minimal height to determine if a huge ass hill is a mountain or not as far as I know.



> Then stop claiming that sasuke blitzes hashirama just because he hit momoshiki with help from naruto.


Fine then. I'll use something more consistent. Sasuke blitzes him by sheer virtue of matching Naruto's speed alone. Good enough? Surely no one here is gonna doubt Naruto jamming Hashi own wood up his rear end before he forms a thought. No one with credibility anyway.


> Yup, I will ignore this since i already countered this point. Thanks for understanding



No counter as far as I see. Concession accepted then.



> Amenotejikara isnt bijudama. Hashirama needs no specialized defense to guard from sasukes strike. You dont need narutos level of sensing to react to sasukes speed as blatantly shown in the manga.


I'm obviously talking about it used in conjunction with Chidori. What, is Hashirama gonna block it with his arm too?



> already countered.


You sure do love saying this without actually countering shit. 



> Naruto turned around and blocked with his arm, but if you want to argue semantics, sure.



Yes sure whatever. Point is Nardo got hit, Hashi ain't as fast so he get hits too yadda yadda yadda.


> The exclamation marks are before their combo attack hit, which means that madara perceived his situation before their attacks landed. He was surprised that he was suddenly inbetween the both of them, not that they hit him. Thats all.



See now this is baseless.



> And sasuke wasnt hitting him when he fought momoshiki by himself.


Then how do you explain him hitting the dude even back to back in one instance, right before they start juggling him in mid air?



> Why dont you just say that movie sasuke>>gaiden sasuke because you think he "looks faster"?
> 
> Thats more direct than me having to constantly disprove your little conspiracy theory which didnt have a leg to stand on anyway.
> 
> This claim will be thrown out the window just like your other baseless claims.


But you've yet to actually disprove shit, and I've given you a basis. You simply ignore it and say "already countered" instead of actually countering it.

I don't mind though. This tedious discussion has gone on long enough, so the more you say that, the better.



> And this is based on VOTE 1s clash being bigger than the PS chidori+bijudama clash. Its irrelevant here anyway.



It's relevant to you hypocritically calling out someone for being bias when you're own posts reek of it. Is literally every other person in the thread bias too for saying the same thing?

Hashi didn't admit inferiority to Juubito? Naruto and Sasuke below him with the 9 Bijuu and the worlds NE? Yeah, it's clear to see why this went nowhere.


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## The Undying (Sep 9, 2015)

Panther said:


> Sasuke only kept up with BSM Naruto's running speed which isn't impressive considering that we have seen throughout the manga shinobi's from different tiers run at the same speed. Even Base Bee kept up with RM Naruto when he was running to the battlefields. Also lets not forget that Base Naruto kept perfectly fine against Base Sasuke speed in base, and to be honest i dodn't see base Naruto's speed blitzing Hashirama. At most i would rate adult Naruto's and Sasuke's speed around SM Madara's lvl.
> 
> Not to mention that the fight was like Kn6 vs pain with a lot of PIS. Sasuke being able to blitz momoshiki while running and then Momoshiki is suddently able to react against Ameno and punch Sasuke away while not being able to react against Borito which has genin speed.




This.

Personally, my conclusion hasn't changed. With Rinnegan and Amenotejikara, Sasuke is decisively above Hashirama. Without it, he gets his shit curbed every single time.

Not like there will ever be a consensus though when you have obvious Sasuke fans trying to influence the topic as much as they can.


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## Zef (Sep 9, 2015)

When all else fails lay it on the fans eh?


Look, it's not this difficult to comprehend. 
Hashirama got blitzed by JJ Obito.


JJ Madara, (who is significantly superior to JJ Obito) had difficulties keeping up with Naruto & Sasuke's speed.



By the time they first received their Rikudou power they were already capable of out speeding the likes of Hashirama (unless you want to argue Hashirama won't be blitzed like JJ Madara in the above scans).

Currently as it stands, this is the epitome of Sasuke's physical capabilities. 



Moving to speeds where the ground gets uprooted, and he leaves a molten trail behind him.

Saying Hashirama *doesn't* get blitzed is just fanfic at this point. If an Ootsusuki (that requires both Naruto & Sasuke to fight) with three Rinnegan is getting thrashed by pure speed and strength then Hashirama has no chance.

Once again I reiterate: *Sasuke blitzes*

When Hashirama displays he can react to One-eyed SM Madara (who stuck him full of black rods), or JJ Obito (who bisected him), then we can begin talking on whether or not Sasuke ain't capable of blitzing him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hachibi (Sep 9, 2015)

Zef said:


> When Hashirama displays he can react to One-eyed SM Madara (who stuck him full of black rods), or JJ Obito (who bisected him), then we can begin talking on whether or not Sasuke ain't capable of blitzing him.



The Black Rods were on his back before Madara was revived tho.


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## Zef (Sep 9, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> The Black Rods were on his back before Madara was revived tho.



Even better.

Hashirama slow as fuck:ignoramus


Speed Wise:

*-Naruto & Sasuke
-JJ Madara
-JJ Obito
-Edo Madara













-Edo Hashirama*


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## tkpirate (Sep 9, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> Shin isnt overall as fast as sasuke just because he reacted to him. That makes zero sense. By that logic, madara is as fast as 8th gate gai and that clearly isnt the case. Yes, your argument is fallacious to the point of being cancerous.



the fuck?
Gai blitz Madara many times in that fight,even the times he reacted to him he barely did it.
Sasuke never blitz Shin,not even close.
you provided no proof why my argument is fallacious,only thing cancerous is your failed attempts to wank Hashirama's wood.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 9, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Sakura. That's literally it. The rest that can do it are the god tiers which obviously goes without saying, and they can connect with their own speed anyway.


You can add kurotsuchi along with sakura as well since she would be perfectly capable of chipping away at the rock formation with her strength based on her feats against kinshiki.




> I said it is a mountain, because it meets the actual definition of the word. There's not a world wide accepted minimal height to determine if a huge ass hill is a mountain or not as far as I know.


Fine call it whatever you want. As long as its clear that chunking tiny portions of this "mountain" isnt otherworldly as far as strength feats go.




> Fine then. I'll use something more consistent. Sasuke blitzes him by sheer virtue of matching Naruto's speed alone. Good enough? Surely no one here is gonna doubt Naruto jamming Hashi own wood up his rear end before he forms a thought. No one with credibility anyway.


Nope. your argument doesnt suffice considering sasuke couldnt blitz shin.




> I'm obviously talking about it used in conjunction with Chidori. What, is Hashirama gonna block it with his arm too?


Sprout mokuton limbs which he can do in time since he can react to sasukes movements.




> You sure do love saying this without actually countering shit.


-says sasuke alone was "tearing the ground" from moving when in reality it was sasuke, naruto and momoshiki.
-says that sasukes stats were weakened in the gaiden when the manga only stated that his eye power was weakened from the chakra loss.
-says my claims are baseless.





> Yes sure whatever. Point is Nardo got hit, Hashi ain't as fast so he get hits too yadda yadda yadda.


The thing is hashirama wouldnt even need to turn around like naruto. He only needs to mentally react considering he can manifest mokuton from anywhere on his body.



> See now this is baseless.


 Madara showing surprise before their attack hit is baseless? No, its blatantly shown. I couldnt care less about your excuses. The manga has spoken. 



> Then how do you explain him hitting the dude even back to back in one instance, right before they start juggling him in mid air?


momoshiki was overwhelmed by their coordination and sasuke managed to land a hit sending him back.
Before momoshiki recovered sasuke rushed in and followed up. You really have some serious comprehension issues if you think sasuke ragdolled momoshiki by himself.





> It's relevant to you hypocritically calling out someone for being bias when you're own posts reek of it. Is literally every other person in the thread bias too for saying the same thing?
> 
> Hashi didn't admit inferiority to Juubito? Naruto and Sasuke below him with the 9 Bijuu and the worlds NE? Yeah, it's clear to see why this went nowhere.


Yup, its the old "always listen to general consensus" prattle. I never said that hashirama is stronger than sasuke with biju or naruto with mass natural energy. I said that him and VOTE madara produced more destruction than naruto and sasuke prior to indras arrow and dual frs.

Once again your reading comprehension doesnt fail to disappoint.


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## Blu-ray (Sep 9, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> You can add kurotsuchi along with sakura as well since she would be perfectly capable of chipping away at the rock formation with her strength based on her feats against kinshiki.



She sent Kinshiki who is weaker back a far shorter distance and through far less durable material. WTF is this?



> Fine call it whatever you want. As long as its clear that chunking tiny portions of this "mountain" isnt otherworldly as far as strength feats go.


Unless you mean tiny relative to the size of the mountain itself, you need to get you're eyes checked. And that kick into the Shinjuu... yeah strength feats don't get much higher than that.

And it's like you forgetting just _who_ he was kicking into places.



> Nope. your argument doesnt suffice considering sasuke couldnt blitz shin.


Yeah, we've been over this.



> Sprout mokuton limbs which he can do in time since he can react to sasukes movements.


I don't think even you believe this, because it's absurd. He's growing out limbs, and then having said limbs either restrain or hinder Sasuke in some way... before Sasuke shoves his hand in his back?



> -says sasuke alone was "tearing the ground" from moving when in reality it was sasuke, naruto and momoshiki.
> -says that sasukes stats were weakened in the gaiden when the manga only stated that his eye power was weakened from the chakra loss.
> -says my claims are baseless.



Except I didn't say Sasuke did it alone, and character stats lowing due to depleted chakra (and stats rising with more) is a thing that happened in this manga several times over and I even gave an example. My basis is the already set precedent.


> The thing is hashirama wouldnt even need to turn around like naruto. He only needs to mentally react considering he can manifest mokuton from anywhere on his body.


He's gonna do this before a Sasuke literally right behind him can move his hand into this body? Actually let me answer that for you. No he isn't, because the likes of Naruto reacting yet still getting hit already spells Hashi's fate.


> Madara showing surprise before their attack hit is baseless? No, its blatantly shown. I couldnt care less about your excuses. The manga has spoken.


The surprise exclamation is to show him _not_ reacting, not the opposite. You reading shit into the manga isn't the manga speaking for itself.



> momoshiki was overwhelmed by their coordination and sasuke managed to land a hit sending him back.
> Before momoshiki recovered sasuke rushed in and followed up. You really have some serious comprehension issues if you think sasuke ragdolled momoshiki by himself.


Ragdoll? No. Hit the dude? When he does it 3 times in a row, yes.

Even in an earlier instant when Momoshiki isn't staggered and Naruto was punched away, Sasuke straight up kicked the dude backwards.



> Yup, its the old "always listen to general consensus" prattle. I never said that hashirama is stronger than sasuke with biju or naruto with mass natural energy. I said that him and VOTE madara produced more destruction than naruto and sasuke prior to indras arrow and dual frs.
> 
> Once again your reading comprehension doesnt fail to disappoint.


The context of what I said has nothing to do with the majority always being right, but the hypocrisy of you calling anything that goes against you bias when several people share that exact opinion, and you yourself are the furthest thing from objective.

My mistake, because that 'with' should have actually been 'without.'  The very notion of them needing all nine Bijuu and the worlds Natural Energy to best Hashi is in itself BS of the highest order.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 10, 2015)

Let me guess, Shinobi no Kami is arguing Hashirama wins despite Sasuke's overwhelming speed advantage?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 10, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> She sent Kinshiki who is weaker back a far shorter distance and through far less durable material. WTF is this?


Kinshikis strength compared to momoshiki isnt relevant to my point. Considering that momoshiki was right next to the rock formation when he was juggled, you are wrong. Kurotsuchi sent kinshiki farther back with her hit than naruto and sasuke did to momoshiki. 

Sasukes attack did less to the shinju than the rock  formation, so that would make the shinjus wood pound for pound more durable than rock.
Assuming that kurotsuchi hits momoshiki(she wouldnt), her hit would be sufficient to break fragments off that rock formation if she sent momoshiki into it.




> Unless you mean tiny relative to the size of the mountain itself, you need to get you're eyes checked. And that kick into the Shinjuu... yeah strength feats don't get much higher than that.
> 
> And it's like you forgetting just _who_ he was kicking into places.


Thats what i said. The fragments knocked off were small compared to the entire mountain and the shinju stump.
Again, who sasuke kicked is irrelevant to my point.



> Yeah, we've been over this.


Of course we did and you conceded when you restated the same defeated point.



> I don't think even you believe this, because it's absurd. He's growing out limbs, and then having said limbs either restrain or hinder Sasuke in some way... before Sasuke shoves his hand in his back?


 Hashirama has already shown the ability to grow mokuton clones from his back. One of them can take the chidori thus buffering the damage and grab sasukes hand like base narutos clone did unless base narutos clone dwarfs hashirama in strength and speed by your logic.




> Except I didn't say Sasuke did it alone, and character stats lowing due to depleted chakra (and stats rising with more) is a thing that happened in this manga several times over and I even gave an example. My basis is the already set precedent.


Characters dont slow down simply after using chakra. Its after using so much that their reserves are nearly spent, which would be made clear by obvious signs of exhaustion.
Only sasukes eye powers were stated to be affected, not all of his physical stats, so your point is moot.


> He's gonna do this before a Sasuke literally right behind him can move his hand into this body? Actually let me answer that for you. No he isn't, because the likes of Naruto reacting yet still getting hit already spells Hashi's fate.


Except hashirama doesn't need to turn around to block sasuke at all and he has the speed to parry sasuke based on even shin perceiving him.


> The surprise exclamation is to show him _not_ reacting, not the opposite. You reading shit into the manga isn't the manga speaking for itself.


The manga shows madara mentally reacting to amenotejikara. It shows him not physically reacting to naruto and sasukes combined assault that followed.


> Ragdoll? No. Hit the dude? When he does it 3 times in a row, yes.
> 
> Even in an earlier instant when Momoshiki isn't staggered and Naruto was punched away, Sasuke straight up kicked the dude backwards.


You didnt even try to not make this lie obvious. After naruto was punched away, sasuke engaged momoshiki then was punched away himself without landing a hit.



> The context of what I said has nothing to do with the majority always being right, but the hypocrisy of you calling anything that goes against you bias when several people share that exact opinion, and you yourself are the furthest thing from objective.
> 
> My mistake, because that 'with' should have actually been 'without.'  The very notion of them needing all nine Bijuu and the worlds Natural Energy to best Hashi is in itself BS of the highest order.


The ridiculous sasuke wank that you demonstrated isnt even close to objective, so you arent in a position to criticize me. Its so toxic that you blatantly ignore sasuke being unable to blitz someone slower than hashirama, then try to justify it with fanfiction.

Also no, naruto and sasukes base abilities dont trump peak hashirama and madaras full power and neither does their higher arsenal outside of biju susano and mass natural energy based on the explosion of the PS chidori and bijudama clash being dwarfed by hashirama and madaras clash.


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## Blu-ray (Sep 10, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> Kinshikis strength compared to momoshiki isnt relevant to my point. Considering that momoshiki was right next to the rock formation when he was juggled, you are wrong. Kurotsuchi sent kinshiki farther back with her hit than naruto and sasuke did to momoshiki.



If it isn't relevant then you have no point, because sending weaker people back does not mean you can do the same to stronger people.

Naruto punched him through the mountain, then Sasuke punched him into the Shinjuu, and judging by the distance of the Shinjuu's stump in the foreground, yeah you seriously lack a sense of perspective. Saying Kurotsuchi sent Kinsuchi further back when all she did was push him through a branch... is lol worthy.



> Sasukes attack did less to the shinju than the rock  formation, so that would make the shinjus wood pound for pound more durable than rock.
> Assuming that kurotsuchi hits momoshiki(she wouldnt), her hit would be sufficient to break fragments off that rock formation if she sent momoshiki into it.



The Shinju is more durable yes, but Sasuke's kick did more to the Shinjuu. He sent Momo through a gap and while it did blow chunks, it didn't do as much... again because it was through a gap.

Again, how the fuck does hitting someone weaker and sending them a distance back mean you can do the same to someone superior, even if you did connect?



> Thats what i said. The fragments knocked off were small compared to the entire mountain and the shinju stump.
> Again, who sasuke kicked is irrelevant to my point.



Not sure what you're point is then, because people of varying levels of power aren't gonna be getting sent the same distance back when they get hit.



> Hashirama has already shown the ability to grow mokuton clones from his back. One of them can take the chidori thus buffering the damage and grab sasukes hand like base narutos clone did unless base narutos clone dwarfs hashirama in strength and speed by your logic.



Yes. After weaving a seal first. And did you seriously judge this because of what happened to Sasuke on the brink of exhaustion? In a situation that isn't comparable to Sasuke teleporting right behind your back?

And lol at Hashi's wood clone actually inhibiting Sasuke's Chidori in any way. 


> Characters dont slow down simply after using chakra. Its after using so much that their reserves are nearly spent, which would be made clear by obvious signs of exhaustion.
> Only sasukes eye powers were stated to be affected, so your point is moot.


He didn't simply use chakra. A large amount of his reserves were spent, on doing something even the likes of Kaguya found draining, and something that did in fact reduce her speed.

It doesn't get much more apparent than that, especially when his movments in the movie and in gaiden are on a different level.



> Except hashirama doesn't need to turn around to block sasuke at all and he has the speed to parry sasuke based on even shin perceiving him.


Sasuke putting hands on far faster people says otherwise.


> The manga shows madara mentally reacting to amenotejikara. It shows him not physically reacting to naruto and sasukes combined assault that followed.


The first time it's used, he doesn't know what the fuck even just happened. Second time it's used, a sword is in his torso, and he again doesn't know what happened. Third time it's used, he's suddenly between two kids with a surprised look on his face.

Again, this is you reading shit into the manga.


> You didnt even try to not make this lie obvious. After naruto was punched away, sasuke engaged momoshiki then was punched away himself without landing a hit.



Accusing people of lying now? Tsk Tsk.

He kicked Momoshiki backwards, right when he running towards a floored Naruto. Traded a few blows that Momoshiki parried, then got smacked away himself. I'm such a nice guy that I even made a gif for you despite my less than perfect gif making skills.


_Concession accepted._



> The ridiculous sasuke wank that you demonstrated isnt even close to objective, so you arent in a position to criticize me. Its so toxic that you blatantly ignore sasuke being unable to blitz someone slower than hashirama, then try to justify it with fanfiction.



How many times did you ignore him tagging people leagues above Hashirama though? You want low end feats while he was confirmed weakened to take president over high end feats where he legitimately manages to tag people so far above Hashirama that Hashirama himself logically shouldn't be able to do shit, and downplay feats you can't outright ignore.

Enough of this petulance. Debate and refute instead of whining like a bitch about bias when you're full of it.



> Also no, naruto and sasukes base abilities dont trump peak hashirama and madaras full power and neither does their higher arsenal outside of biju susano and mass natural energy based on the explosion of the PS chidori and bijudama clash being dwarfed by hashirama and madaras clash.



Meanwhile they have other feats like Naruto creating a far larger explosion with Cho Bijuu Rasenshuriken, TBB Rasenshuriken, and blitzing the fucking progenitor herself, going so far as to dismember her, and Sasuke has shit like chopping fucking Juubi Jin Mads in two, and slicing apart CT meteors whose *rubble* makes Shinsuusenju look small.

But lets just gloss over those and focus on the feat that happened... while one of them was confirmed to be holding back.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 10, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> If it isn't relevant then you have no point, because sending weaker people back does not mean you can do the same to stronger people.
> 
> Naruto punched him through the mountain, then Sasuke punched him into the Shinjuu, and judging by the distance of the Shinjuu's stump in the foreground, yeah you seriously lack a sense of perspective. Saying Kurotsuchi sent Kinsuchi further back when all she did was push him through a branch... is lol worthy.
> 
> ...


You're right. Sasukes kick did more to the shinju. However while it is impressive looking power wise to the eye, when in the face of power scaling, its not.

PS dwarfed the shinjus stump while sasukes attack only chipped the edge of the tree. Size wise, the chunk that sasuke took off would be significantly smaller than a biju based on the size of the chipping and shinju stump compared to PS and also comparing the stump to momoshiki.
The amount that sasuke chipped wasnt even close to the stump in size. 




> Not sure what you're point is then, because people of varying levels of power aren't gonna be getting sent the same distance back when they get hit.


Basically kurotsuchi is capable of chipping the rock formation based on the shinjus wood being pound for pound more durable than rock.




> Yes. After weaving a seal first. And did you seriously judge this because of what happened to Sasuke on the brink of exhaustion? In a situation that isn't comparable to Sasuke teleporting right behind your back?
> 
> And lol at Hashi's wood clone actually inhibiting Sasuke's Chidori in any way.


Um, hashiramas clone would inhibit chidori at least as much as narutos clone did. Considering that the clones will automatically be facing sasukes direction, its a perfectly viable defensive measure.


> He didn't simply use chakra. A large amount of his reserves were spent, on doing something even the likes of Kaguya found draining, and something that did in fact reduce her speed.
> 
> It doesn't get much more apparent than that, especially when his movments in the movie and in gaiden are on a different level.



Yup, he used a lot of chakra. So much in fact that the manga even clarified which aspect of his power was weakened. Physical stat drops across the board wasnt one of them.


> Sasuke putting hands on far faster people says otherwise.


Far faster is a blatant lie. Narutos speed comes from his shunshin which wasnt used against sasuke and your logic doesnt work because

-tagging someone fast doesnt mean that everyone thats slower than said individual is blitzed without reaction being possible.
-madara managed to damage 8th gate gai, yet cant blitz everyone slower than gai with footspeed. 
-sasuke couldnt blitz shin.


> The first time it's used, he doesn't know what the fuck even just happened. Second time it's used, a sword is in his torso, and he again doesn't know what happened. Third time it's used, he's suddenly between two kids with a surprised look on his face.
> 
> Again, this is you reading shit into the manga.


 Madara showing surprise at himself being swapped before naruto and sasukes attacks land means that he perceived his situation before their attacks landed. Thats all there is to it.



> Accusing people of lying now? Tsk Tsk.
> 
> He kicked Momoshiki backwards, right when he running towards a floored Naruto. Traded a few blows that Momoshiki parried, then got smacked away himself. I'm such a nice guy that I even made a gif for you despite my less than perfect gif making skills.
> 
> ...



He kicked momoshiki while his attention was on naruto and it did nothing. You must be desperate to be reaching this hard.



> How many times did you ignore him tagging people leagues above Hashirama though? You want low end feats while he was confirmed weakened to take president over high end feats where he legitimately manages to tag people so far above Hashirama that Hashirama himself logically shouldn't be able to do shit, and downplay feats you can't outright ignore.


Hashirama couldnt do shit against certain foes according to whos logic? Yours? Im not downplaying feats. You are reaching extremely hard to the point that you are trying to justify your argument based on sasuke hitting momoshiki once while he wasnt even paying him any mind, all while ignoring that the hit didnt damage momoshiki in any way.



> Enough of this petulance. Debate and refute instead of whining like a bitch about bias when you're full of it.


-accusing me of whining when you were the one initially crying about me being biased.



> Meanwhile they have other feats like Naruto *creating a far larger explosion with Cho Bijuu Rasenshuriken, TBB Rasenshuriken,* and blitzing the fucking progenitor herself, going so far as to dismember her, and Sasuke has shit like chopping fucking Juubi Jin Mads in two, and *slicing apart CT meteors whose rubble makes Shinsuusenju look small.*
> 
> But lets just gloss over those and focus on the feat that happened... while one of them was confirmed to be holding back.


Thats nice, though its a shame that the bold is blatantly wrong and you ignored the context of the underlined events.

You're right. Naruto was holding back. He wasnt using the asura avatar.


----------



## Blu-ray (Sep 11, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> You're right. Sasukes kick did more to the shinju. However while it is impressive looking power wise to the eye, when in the face of power scaling, its not.



Power scaling isn't even applicable here. 


> PS dwarfed the shinjus stump while sasukes attack only chipped the edge of the tree. Size wise, the chunk that sasuke took off would be significantly smaller than a biju based on the size of the chipping and shinju stump compared to PS and also comparing the stump to momoshiki.
> The amount that sasuke chipped wasnt even close to the stump in size.



Yes and what of it? It still trumps everything bar the rest of the god tiers and potentially Sakura have going for them.

Strength is also largely irrelevant to Hashi getting blitzed or not.


> Basically kurotsuchi is capable of chipping the rock formation based on the shinjus wood being pound for pound more durable than rock.


Sure she can chip it, but by kicking Momoshiki into it, and to the same degree as Sasuke or Naruto? No she can't.



> Um, hashiramas clone would inhibit chidori at least as much as narutos clone did. Considering that the clones will automatically be facing sasukes direction, its a perfectly viable defensive measure.


That happened to an exhausted Sasuke who could not muster and full powered Chidori. You have this weird knack for judging a characters overall ability by their performance when fucking exhausted.

Sasuke's Chidori would go right through the clone and into Hashirama ending it right there.


> Yup, he used a lot of chakra. So much in fact that the manga even clarified which aspect of his power was weakened. Physical stat drops across the board wasnt one of them.


Literally every ability in his arsenal that draws it's power from chakra would be affected if his chakra is drained. His eyes were specified, but were not said to be the only limitation. Chakra is only what makes him this fast and strong to begin with, and once again we have the president of stats changing with more or less chakra (when it's a significant difference.)



> Far faster is a blatant lie. Narutos speed comes from his shunshin which wasnt used against sasuke and your logic doesnt work because



Madara, Momo, and Naruto being far faster than Hashi is a lie?

Naruto decided not to avoid just because too? Okay then. If you say it it must be true. Not downplaying at all.


> -tagging someone fast doesnt mean that everyone thats slower than said individual is blitzed without reaction being possible.



There's a reason I put emphasis on _far_ slower. Hashirama for example can't react to Naruto, so it's safe to assume he gets blitzed by someone who can actually land a hit on him.



> -madara managed to damage 8th gate gai, yet cant blitz everyone slower than gai with footspeed.


There's not a single panel of Madara even touching 8 gates Gai, neither were their any signs of injury that didn't look like the came from using gates.


> -sasuke couldnt blitz shin.


We've been over this, and Sasuke did not even attempt to blitz him in the first place, so _couldn't_ is stretch.



> Madara showing* surprise at himself* being swapped before naruto and sasukes attacks land means that he perceived his situation before their attacks landed. Thats all there is to it.


Reading shit into it as usual. Repeating it over and over won't make me start believing you're bs yo.


> He kicked momoshiki while his attention was on naruto and it did nothing. You must be desperate to be reaching this hard.
> 
> *Hashirama couldnt do shit against certain foes according to whos logic? Yours?* Im not downplaying feats. You are reaching extremely hard to the point that you are trying to justify your argument based on sasuke hitting momoshiki once while he wasnt even paying him any mind, all while ignoring that the hit didnt damage momoshiki in any way.





			
				you said:
			
		

> You didnt even try to not make this lie obvious. After naruto was punched away, sasuke engaged momoshiki then was punched away himself without landing a hit.



These are _your_ words, and my post was purely in response to _them._ Way to try and shift the goal posts tho. Ironic that you'd accuse me of lying and resort to being intellectually dishonest when proven wrong. 

You accuse me of reaching for excuses too while saying _"b-but the hit did nothing!!!11!!"_ when that's entirely besides the point, and Momo neither dealt nor received any damage from punches and kicks. The hypocrite train just keeps on a chuggin wit ya

As for the bold, No, according to logic and common sense in general. You don't fail to hit people with massively inferior reactions and speed than those you actually connect hits with. It's as if you think Sasuke has to be capable of blitzing Naruto, Momoshiki, or Madara, to do the same to Hashirama, at a mere 25 meters no less.

Sasuke hitting him _*before*_ he can pay him mind is exactly what makes it impressive. And it's a two on one fight, so the whole paying one no mind excuse doesn't fly. Well it would if he thought he finished one of off or pinned one down... but he didn't even so much as hit Sasuke at that point.



> -accusing me of whining when you were the one initially crying about me being biased.


Some revisionist history you have there. You were the one who brought up this biased Sasuke fan shit mate, not I. I simply pointed out your hypocrisy.


> Thats nice, though its a shame that the bold is blatantly wrong and you ignored the context of the underlined events.



No, the bold is fact. As I said, get some sense of perspective.  

As for the underlined, Kaguya was drained and Madara has his limbo pinned. Still enough to put them far above the likes of Hashirama.



> You're right. Naruto was holding back. He wasnt using the asura avatar.


Had his chakra drained away too. But you love pretending that doesn't mean shit anyway.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Sep 11, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> The opponent doesnt automatically die when amenotejikara is used. Sasuke still has to attack when he appears out of the jutsu and his movement is still easily perceivable as shown when shin grabbed sasukes sword midstrike to mark it.
> 
> -sasuke used amenotejikara to get behind shin.
> -sasuke attacked.
> ...



Is it fanfiction because it rarely happens, or is it plausable but limited due to being rather anticlimatic?
Sasuke destroyed a village busting meteor with a traditional chidori, and Hashirama is built to counter act Madara exclusively. And one thing about Madara......HIS ARSENAL DOESN'T BEGIN TO TOUCH SASUKE'S.

Secondly, all of Hashi's constructs leave him exposed.Hashi's going to have some trouble with a Sasuke who has much, much more to offer than base Madara.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 12, 2015)

Sasuke fanboys vs. Early Era (Hashi, Madara) Fanboy

LEGO


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## Nikushimi (Sep 12, 2015)

Sasuke can't use Doujutsu higher than the Sharingan, or what? What constitutes "base" for him, at this point?

Anyway, anything less than the EMS and Hashirama pounds him with a fucking tree.


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## Ersa (Sep 12, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Sasuke can't use Doujutsu higher than the Sharingan, or what? What constitutes "base" for him, at this point?
> 
> Anyway, anything less than the EMS and Hashirama pounds him with a fucking tree.


Just Sharingan and base arsenal.

How does Hashirama pound what he cannot hit?


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## Trojan (Sep 12, 2015)

Why is this still going on? 

the time where Hashirama was special/one of the strongest has long ended. He can barely make it to top 15/20 now.
Sasuke on the other hand is one of the strongest 10 or so.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Sep 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Why is this still going on?
> 
> the time where Hashirama was special/one of the strongest has long ended. He can barely make it to top 15/20 now.
> Sasuke on the other hand is one of the strongest 10 or so.



He can most certainly make it in the top 10.....Sheesh, what manga are you reading.

Naruto, Sasuke, Juubito, Juudara, Double Sharingan Kakashi, Kaguya. After that I fail to see who's above him in overall power. The problem with Hashi, again. He's tailor made to counter EMS Madara. Thus, land alterting attacks, large chakara constructs, and armies of fodder he can handle. 

It's the opponents in which can pressure him directly that gives him trouble. Madara had far more success fighting him directly without all the extra's.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 13, 2015)

Hashi has godmode sage regen.  Sasuke can't win by blitz even if he could blitz.  Hashi also has the AOE to counter someone with only pure speed and a thrust that gets stuck in shadow clones.

Also that's dumb and Sasuke is dumb and speed feats from Naruto and Sasuke are dumb.  I'd rather do like Kishi and pretend they aren't like their later feats and kind of still make sense.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 14, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Power scaling isn't even applicable here.
> 
> 
> Yes and what of it? It still trumps everything bar the rest of the god tiers and potentially Sakura have going for them.
> ...


Simply based on how big the shinju stump is compared to momoshiki, its not out of the ordinary, considering that hashirama and madaras cqc fight produced an explosion almost comparable to the surrounding mountains.




> That happened to an exhausted Sasuke who could not muster and full powered Chidori. You have this weird knack for judging a characters overall ability by their performance when fucking exhausted.
> 
> Sasuke's Chidori would go right through the clone and into Hashirama ending it right there.


Couldn't muster a full power chidori? Sasuke was undoubtedly exhausted, but he still had the chakra to use the jutsu and there is nothing implying that the chidori was any weaker than usual, just like narutos rasengan wasnt weaker than usual.
Either a character will have the chakra to use a jutsu or it simply wont work.


> Literally every ability in his arsenal that draws it's power from chakra would be affected if his chakra is drained. His eyes were specified, but were not said to be the only limitation. Chakra is only what makes him this fast and strong to begin with, and once again we have the president of stats changing with more or less chakra (when it's a significant difference.)


We have the precedence of stats changing when chakra is used to the point of exhaustion. Saying that he used so much chakra that anything but his eye powers were affected is conjecture. 





> Madara, Momo, and Naruto being far faster than Hashi is a lie?
> 
> Naruto decided not to avoid just because too? Okay then. If you say it it must be true. Not downplaying at all.
> 
> ...


They arent faster to the point where hashirama cant even perceive them, the same way they cant blitz sasuke.



> There's not a single panel of Madara even touching 8 gates Gai, neither were their any signs of injury that didn't look like the came from using gates.


Gai being bloodied with his jacket being ripped off is simply "8th gate damage"?



> We've been over this, and Sasuke did not even attempt to blitz him in the first place, so _couldn't_ is stretch.



Sasuke rushed at him and striked at him with the intention to disable him, yet apparently he didnt attempt to "blitz" him. Very comical indeed.
If sasuke couldve ended the fight instantly, he would have. Sadly, he didnt.



> Reading shit into it as usual. Repeating it over and over won't make me start believing you're bs yo.


Whether you believe me or not doesnt matter to me. I only state facts as the manga presents them.





> These are _your_ words, and my post was purely in response to _them._ Way to try and shift the goal posts tho. Ironic that you'd accuse me of lying and resort to being intellectually dishonest when proven wrong.
> 
> You accuse me of reaching for excuses too while saying _"b-but the hit did nothing!!!11!!"_ when that's entirely besides the point, and Momo neither dealt nor received any damage from punches and kicks. The hypocrite train just keeps on a chuggin wit ya
> 
> ...



The fact that the fight was 2 on 1 means that your point has no merit. While his attention was divided, sasuke attacked momoshiki. This "godly feat" that you are referring to doesnt exist. We have already seen what happens when sasuke faces momoshiki 1v1.




> Some revisionist history you have there. You were the one who brought up this biased Sasuke fan shit mate, not I. I simply pointed out your hypocrisy.


That was simply my objective observation.I said nothing particularly provoking nor did i go on a tangent.
Your comments dont actually offend me in any way, so its more beneficial to drop this as it doesnt contribute to the discussion.




> No, the bold is fact. As I said, get some sense of perspective.
> 
> As for the underlined, Kaguya was drained and Madara has his limbo pinned. Still enough to put them far above the likes of Hashirama.
> 
> ...


My perspective is fine, but considering that PS is taller than the shinjus stump, destroying madaras meteors isnt impressive.

Black zetsu made the comment after kaguya absorbed the chakra of everyone in IT, that her speed and strength *now* surpass theirs. That means before, stat wise, she wasnt much different than naruto or sasuke.
Slicing madara because he let you do it isnt  impressive either. The speed at which sasuke caught up to madara was impressive though as the manga stated.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 14, 2015)

> Hashi has godmode sage regen. Sasuke can't win by blitz even if he could blitz. Hashi also has the AOE to counter someone with only pure speed and a thrust that gets stuck in shadow clones.


Well the Chidori that busted the village size+ meteor is probably enough to destroy that man. Essentially, we're talking a destruction feat that surpasses Chou Shinra Tensei. 

How do you explain Kaguya (far greater durability and regeneration, confirmed immortal) avoiding Sasuke's Chidori? Why did she choose to avoid it?

To this day I haven't seen a single durability feat from SM Hashirama. I'm going to roll with Sasuke's Chidori (CST+) if he hits him with it, not featless durability portrayal, especially considering

he does not start in Sage Mode. 

Base Hashirama's durability feats, while Edo, served him up into the point where Madara stuck him through with 5 Black Receivers. What that means is he has as much durability as his brother, Pain-arc Kakashi, Base Pain-arc Naruto & Sage Mode Jiraiya who also lost an arm to Asura.


----------



## Blu-ray (Sep 14, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> Simply based on how big the shinju stump is compared to momoshiki, its not out of the ordinary, *considering that hashirama and madaras cqc fight produced an explosion almost comparable to the surrounding mountains.*


Looked over both their VOTE and Edo fight, and found no such thing. Panel please?



> Couldn't muster a full power chidori? Sasuke was undoubtedly exhausted, but he still had the chakra to use the jutsu and there is nothing implying that the chidori was any weaker than usual, just like narutos rasengan wasnt weaker than usual.
> Either a character will have the chakra to use a jutsu or it simply wont work.



Uh no. Being able to use a technique is not the same as using it at full power, which in this case is vaporize mountain sized meteors. Getting stuck inside of a clone is in itself proof of that, though you twisted that into meaning clones could now stop Chidoris.

Naruto's rasengan barely dug a hole in the ground, and was physically smaller the second time it was used. How that isn't weaker than usual is beyond me.



> We have the precedence of stats changing when chakra is used to the point of exhaustion. Saying that he used so much chakra that anything but his eye powers were affected is conjecture.


Then let me put it another way. Not nearly as strong as the could potentially be. If the amount of chakra one can put into a jutsu determines it's power then having more = more power. 



> They arent faster to the point where hashirama cant even perceive them, the same way they cant blitz sasuke.


Based off of what. Does Hashirama have feats of reacting to any of them? They on the other hand have feats of either blitzing people faster than Hashi, or being faster than the people that blitzed people faster than Hashi. You lost in what I'm saying?

Nardo even blitzed Kaguya without her reacting, and it's even worse since according to you she wasn't compromised at the time because of chakra drain. Yet Hashi can react.



> Gai being bloodied with his jacket being ripped off is simply "8th gate damage"?



Gates is literally destroying his own body, and his shirt magically disappeared without Mads doing shit to him that same chap too. Not even sure where you get that it was ripped off. It's gone, the method as to how remains a mystery.



> Sasuke rushed at him and striked at him with the intention to disable him, yet apparently he didnt attempt to "blitz" him. Very comical indeed.
> If sasuke couldve ended the fight instantly, he would have. Sadly, he didnt.


Yes. Attacking someone doesn't always include or require a blitz, cause in that cause even Shin Jr is too much for Sasuke and Naruto to blitz. If that's really what you're asserting, then for the sake of consistency I'll just ask you to prove Hashi can react because Shin can.

Nardo and Sauce fight with and can even blitz people far faster than Hashi, so if them reacting probably means they have better reactions than him anyway.

I'm also getting irritated of using the word blitz.


> Whether you believe me or not doesnt matter to me. I only state facts as the manga presents them.



Except that's not how the manga presents them. It's you're own twisted interpretation as such.



> The fact that the fight was 2 on 1 means that your point has no merit. While his attention was divided, sasuke attacked momoshiki. This "godly feat" that you are referring to doesnt exist. We have already seen what happens when sasuke faces momoshiki 1v1.



Dunno why godly feat in quotations when I didn't say that in regards to that feat but whatever.

You said Sasuke did not him him *at all* in that instant. He did, and I showed that purely as a counter. You said literally every connected hit was due to coordiantion. This again *counters* that.



> That was simply my objective observation.I said nothing particularly provoking nor did i go on a tangent.
> Your comments dont actually offend me in any way, so its more beneficial to drop this as it doesnt contribute to the discussion.



>You
>Objective


Discussing the person instead of the argument is way off tangent yo. In any case lets end it, cause arguing which fictional character beats with TL;DR essays is embarrassing enough as it is.



> My perspective is fine, but considering that PS is taller than the shinjus stump, destroying madaras meteors isnt impressive.


No you most definitely need a sense of perspective, because Sasuke's CT were smaller than the Shinjuu's stump, and Sasuke PS was smaller than those same CT.

CT compared to Shinjuu
CT compared to Sasuke's PS.

His PS was so small in comparison to Madara's Cbibaku Tensei meteors that we couldn't even see it, yet it sliced them apart. Whether or not that's impressive according to you're criteria, I care not. It puts him above Hashirama.



> Black zetsu made the comment after kaguya absorbed the chakra of everyone in IT, that her speed and strength *now* surpass theirs. That means before, stat wise, she wasnt much different than naruto or sasuke.



She was replacing the chakra she used up, hence BZ telling her to go the core dimension to get more chakra in the first place.

She was also blitzing them before she was told to make more, but she was wasn't far from their level statwise?


> Slicing madara because he let you do it isnt  impressive either. The speed at which sasuke caught up to madara was impressive though as the manga stated.


Being able to cut through Madara at all is impressive, especially when he could tank an attack that cut down the Shinjuu with only a gash on his belly in a weaker form. 

It's also one reason why Hashi stopping Chidori is absurd.


----------



## Zef (Sep 14, 2015)

> Thread is still going on


Okay. Let's take away Sasuke's speed feat, and equalize it with Hashirama's (as if the latter has speed feats).
Hashirama still loses. Sasuke durability went up along with everything else. Nothing Hashirama dishes out with the exception of the wood golem, and wooden Buddha can harm Sasuke.


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## Blu-ray (Sep 15, 2015)

Zef said:


> > Thread is still going on
> 
> 
> Okay. Let's take away Sasuke's speed feat, and equalize it with Hashirama's (as if the latter has speed feats).
> Hashirama still loses. Sasuke durability went up along with everything else. Nothing Hashirama dishes out with the exception of the wood golem, and wooden Buddha can harm Sasuke.



Truth be told the thread ran it's course and we're pretty much going in circles now. I wanna stop responding but I lack self control.

It's really as simple as Sasuke's speed = Naruto's speed > Hashirama's ability to react, and Chidori Eiso>Hashirama's neck due to it cleaving a Juubi Jin in half.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Sep 15, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Hashirama squashes him like a bug


Just like Madara was sqaushed like a bug after losing both Susano'o and Kurama, oh wait.

Perhaps you are not familiar with Adult Sasuke's destructive power, even in base..........There's a reason why your opinion is in the minority, mate.

But's let's entertain this idea you have a little further, as Iphr0z3nI doesn't mind......

Hashirama's chakara constructs: Wood Golem, Wood Dragon, and Senpō Mokuton: Shin Sūsenju. All of these techniques seem to have something in common Mr. Argus, can you spot it? Or does Iphr0z3nI have to spell it out for you? Need a hint, I'll bite.. NONE OF THESE TECHNIQUES PROTECTS IT'S USER. Hashirama is exposed at all times, leaving him open to CLOSE QUARTERS COMBAT WITH A PERSON HE ISN'T EQUIPED TO HANDLE IN THAT AREA.

Case in point. Sasuke can close the distance against Hashi at will, hence the one sided discussion. 
Case in point. Sasuke can teleport to Hashi, swap himself with Hashi, transmigrate his sword into Hashi, etc. etc.

For your argument to have some merit, Hashi would have to attempt to play keep away. The problem is.......Sasuke's much faster. The problem is........Base Sasuke is more likely to result to close quarters combat, a fight Hashi can't win.



> Not understanding the wank behind base sasuke when he practically has jack shit on Hashiramas constructs


But the problem is Sasuke has the means to bypass the constructs and go straight for Hashi.
NOTE: Hashirama did well against Edo Madara, but got embarrassed Juubi Madara. Note: Sasuke was able to overwhelm a more powerful Juubi Madara. You can arbitrate Sasuke had aid from Naruto, which he did. However, it was Sasuke's abilities that forced Madara to retreat.

But let's take this a bit further shall we. Sasuke's raiton game as a adolecent. He would make short work Wood Dragon, and wood Golem wouldn't fair much better. As far as Hashirama's most powerful construct.....Karin.....What, Hashi's bigger you say? This is Adult Sasuke's

_Sigh_ I should be getting paid for these ass whoopings. Let me explain to why Hashi's arsenal was so effective against Madara's. It's because both Kurama and Madara's Perfect Susano'o were large and slow, much like Hashi's constructs. Hashi's constructs were designed to counteract the raw power of Madara's constructs. There's a reason Hashi lost once Madara starting using his base form.

The bottom line Mr. Argus. You can't squash what you can't hit, and Hashi doesn't stand  a chance against Sasuke in close quartes combat.  




> He is practically defenseless thus SS or Mokujin would pummel him to dirt,
> He'll even FTW has a chance of soloing since sasuke is not evading nor is he taking out the pollen without Hashirama retaliating


Yes, because a person that can teleport is defensless. Question Argus. What was Sasuke's feat with his base Rinnegan? A dodge. Now let's examine the extent in which Sasuke's teleportation jutsu has improved over the years. It seems he can teleport in and out of Konoha at will. He can even transmigrate into deminsions now.

Did you just suggest Hashirama's pollen as a means to defeat Sasuke.  I did just mention he can teleport right? If I recall correctly inhaling enough of the pollen would render one unconscious, right? Question, how much pollen would Sasuke have to enhale to be render unconscious. An attack that failed to do such on any of the Kage's. Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin seems like Amaterasu bait to me.

And all the above is before we bring Sasuke's summons into the mix. Sasuke's hawk allows him to remian airborn, which would render over half of Hashirama's arsenal useless. Aoda, Aoda may not possess the raw power of any biju, but I believe it's job is to MOVE. Note: Sasuke's summons are primarily used for mobility. It's Sasuke that does most of the attacking.

So pick your poison Argus. Sasuke either teleports to Hashi. Flies to Hashi. Or converge on Hashi via aoda or Shushin. There is a reason why you are in the minority here, it's because there's something called MATCH UPS. 

The bottom line Mr. Argus. Those constructs that you deem so absolute in Hashi's dominance ,aren't much of a problem for base Adult Sasuke at all. I could see if the battle came down to Sasuke actually having to deal with Hashi's constructs, but such isn't the case at all. It's Hashi that's defensless in this situation, as base Adult Sasuke would rape him in close quarters combat. And Sasuke has no trouble closing the distance against anybody; Madara, Kaguya, Naruto.......Sasuke manage to close the distance against all three of the guys, and all of them were much, much faster than Hashi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## StarWanderer (Sep 15, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Well the Chidori that busted the village size+ meteor is probably enough to destroy that man. Essentially, we're talking a destruction feat that surpasses Chou Shinra Tensei.
> 
> How do you explain Kaguya (far greater durability and regeneration, confirmed immortal) avoiding Sasuke's Chidori? Why did she choose to avoid it?
> 
> ...



Madara with Edo Hashirama's Sage Mode withstood hits from all Bijuu's. You can apply that durability feat to SM Hashirama, easily.

However, is this still going on? Does he have half of Hagoromo's chakra? If so, then Hashirama gets speedblitzed, SM or not.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 16, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Looked over both their VOTE and Edo fight, and found no such thing. Panel please?



*Spoiler*: __ 









> Uh no. Being able to use a technique is not the same as using it at full power, which in this case is vaporize mountain sized meteors. Getting stuck inside of a clone is in itself proof of that, though you twisted that into meaning clones could now stop Chidoris.
> 
> Naruto's rasengan barely dug a hole in the ground, and was physically smaller the second time it was used. How that isn't weaker than usual is beyond me.
> 
> ...


 narutos rasengan wasnt smaller than usual. im not sure where you got that from. 


*Spoiler*: __ 







rasengans power wasnt even being directed at the ground.

as for sasuke, his chidori wasnt any different in appearance or power in either instance it was used. 


*Spoiler*: __ 









we already saw what happened when he no longer had the necessary chakra to use chidori. it fizzled out.

*Spoiler*: __ 








so basically you're claiming that his chidori was "weakened" because you dont want to accept that some of sasukes feats are bad. you dont have any grounds for your claim.

the manga has shown that you can only put so much power into one jutsu, so no, sasuke cant dump his entire chakra reservoir into chidori if he hasnt done it featwise.


> Based off of what. Does Hashirama have feats of reacting to any of them? They on the other hand have feats of either blitzing people faster than Hashi, or being faster than the people that blitzed people faster than Hashi. You lost in what I'm saying?
> 
> Nardo even blitzed Kaguya without her reacting, and it's even worse since according to you she wasn't compromised at the time because of chakra drain. Yet Hashi can react.


if naruto were to be in a practical position where he had a clean route to shunshin at hashirama and hashirama had no sort of defense or construct up, yes naruto could "blitz". 
lets indulge this idea of yours. a missing arm isnt killing hashirama, hashirama can still use mokuton one-handed and sasuke isnt as fast as naruto.




> Gates is literally destroying his own body, and his shirt magically disappeared without Mads doing shit to him that same chap too. Not even sure where you get that it was ripped off. It's gone, the method as to how remains a mystery.


nope, the gates have never shown to make the user bleed. gais shirt was burned off when he charged night gai. 
the blood means that madara got hits on gai despite a speed disadvantage.



> Yes. Attacking someone doesn't always include or require a blitz, cause in that cause even Shin Jr is too much for Sasuke and Naruto to blitz. If that's really what you're asserting, then for the sake of consistency I'll just ask you to prove Hashi can react because Shin can.
> 
> Nardo and Sauce fight with and can even blitz people far faster than Hashi, so if them reacting probably means they have better reactions than him anyway.
> 
> I'm also getting irritated of using the word blitz.


does shin have better speed and reactions than hashirama? based on his performance against sakura, no he doesnt.





> Dunno why godly feat in quotations when I didn't say that in regards to that feat but whatever.
> 
> You said Sasuke did not him him *at all* in that instant. He did, and I showed that purely as a counter. You said literally every connected hit was due to coordiantion. This again *counters* that.


what you posted is a coordination feat because sasuke wouldnt have gotten in the hit in if naruto wasnt there. its that simple.





> No you most definitely need a sense of perspective, because Sasuke's CT were smaller than the Shinjuu's stump, and Sasuke PS was smaller than those same CT.
> 
> CT compared to Shinjuu
> CT compared to Sasuke's PS.
> ...


are you really showing CT next to the shinju when they arent fully formed as evidence? 
sasukes susano was shown next to madaras meteor. its size compared to a single meteor is such that susano with its wings spread out is over half its width.

*Spoiler*: __ 







im not sure where you came up with nonsense like "susano isnt even visible next to the meteor".

this is how big PS is compared to the shinjus stump.



> She was replacing the chakra she used up, hence BZ telling her to go the core dimension to get more chakra in the first place.
> 
> She was also blitzing them before she was told to make more, but she was wasn't far from their level statwise?
> 
> ...


1. sasuke cut madara using hagoromos six paths yin power, which he doesnt have post kaguya fight.
2. sasuke cut madara using chidori eisou, not chidori.
3. he cant hit hashirama with eisou anyway.
4. cutting the shinju is something that even kinshiki can do. madara, hashirama, naruto and sasuke can all sever the shinju.
5. a lot of top tier attacks can kill pre shinju madara if they hit given the damage that he took from night gai. 
6. madaras durability didnt change after he absorbed the shinju. he simply became immortal.

kaguya never blitzed naruto or sasuke. it was her overall power that was so overwhelming. stat wise, she was not worlds beyond them.
also, no. the chakra she gained from the people in IT pushed her to another level than she was at previously.
kaguya post chakra absorption>kaguya from the start of her battle against naruto and sasuke in terms of stats.


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## Ghoztly (Sep 16, 2015)

Can't believe there is even this much discussion. I am not a fanboy for either character nor will I bother wanking either of them.

Sasuke would curbstomp him.


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## Mercurial (Sep 16, 2015)

Sasuke blitzes? Sasuke blitzes.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Blu-ray (Sep 16, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> *Spoiler*: __


You know that's CQC how? The next we see them Mads has a wood dragon wrapped around him.



> narutos rasengan wasnt smaller than usual. im not sure where you got that from.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Actual best feat
Actual best feat
Spot the difference.

It hit the ground, intentional or not.



> as for sasuke, his chidori wasnt any different in appearance or power in either instance it was used.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


No, I'm claiming it's weakened because he's half dead here and has far better feats than that, when he wasn't.



> the manga has shown that you can only put so much power into one jutsu, so no, sasuke cant dump his entire chakra reservoir into chidori if he hasnt done it featwise.


Literally nowhere did I say he was gonna throw all his chakra into it. How are you this dense? Naruto has a limit to how big he can make a BD or how many clones he can make. Same principle here.



> if naruto were to be in a practical position where he had a clean route to shunshin at hashirama and hashirama had no sort of defense or construct up, yes naruto could "blitz".
> lets indulge this idea of yours. a missing arm isnt killing hashirama, hashirama can still use mokuton one-handed and sasuke isnt as fast as naruto.



The whole point of blitzing is attacking before a defense or counter can be made in the first place. That whole "only if Hashi doesn't have a defense up" crap is moot.

If he can take of Kaguya's hand without resistance or her so much as reacting to it, he can take off Hashi's head without resistance, and yes, Sasuke is as fast as Naruto going by this movie. Not like he needs to be that fast to blitz Hashi anyway.



> nope, the gates have never shown to make the user bleed. gais shirt was burned off when he charged night gai.
> the blood means that madara got hits on gai despite a speed disadvantage.


8 gates cause far more damage than those before it so they can't be used as a measure.


> does shin have better speed and reactions than hashirama? based on his performance against sakura, no he doesnt.


She has the feat of reacting to Kaguya's tail that even Naruto said was fast. She also straight up blitzed Shin while you assert Sasuke can not. Maybe she's simply better than Hashi too.



> what you posted is a coordination feat because sasuke wouldnt have gotten in the hit in if naruto wasnt there. its that simple.



It just dawned on me that Naruto didn't so much as hit the dude without teamwork himself. Go ahead and downplay the feat then. Clearly it's not required to shit on Hashi.


> are you really showing CT next to the shinju when they arent fully formed as evidence?
> sasukes susano was shown next to madaras meteor. its size compared to a single meteor is such that susano with its wings spread out is over half its width.


That's already chopped rubble, not a full meteor.

No. These aren't bigger than the Shinjuu by any stretch of the imagination.Actual best feat

Why even post a completely different tree as evidence.


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was referring to the panel where he first chopped up the meteor. There was no Susano'o to be seen. Lets disregard that and use something more tangible then.

Actual best feat
Here, we see PS compared to Naruto's BD Rasenshuriken (before detonating) and those same BD Rasenshuriken compared to the meteors.


> this is how big PS is compared to the shinjus stump.


That's a different Shinjuu, one that's *dead.*



> 1. sasuke cut madara using hagoromos six paths yin power, which he doesnt have post kaguya fight.
> 2. sasuke cut madara using chidori eisou, not chidori.
> 3. he cant hit hashirama with eisou anyway.
> 4. cutting the shinju is something that even kinshiki can do. madara, hashirama, naruto and sasuke can all sever the shinju.
> ...



Rikudo Chakra was to circumvent the Juubi Jin's immunity to ninjutsu. Hashi has no such immunity, and that thing can bust meteors now. A bit above Hashi's body's ability to tank anyway.
Eiso is weaker than standard Chidori, and nothing is stopping him from using it if he pleases anyway.
Whole new level of delusion
Naruto and Kinshiki have feats of doing so, and Sasuke and Mads have feats above that. Hashirama does not.
Gai is flat out said to be stronger than even Hashi and that's his strongest move, so no. Even Naruto and Sasuke would be hard pressed. 
Point stands regarless. YRS only left a gash yet could chop down the Shinjuu. Eiso Bifurcated him.



> kaguya never blitzed naruto or sasuke. it was her overall power that was so overwhelming. stat wise, she was not worlds beyond them.
> also, no. the chakra she gained from the people in IT pushed her to another level than she was at previously.
> kaguya post chakra absorption>kaguya from the start of her battle against naruto and sasuke in terms of stats.



So she didn't pop up behind them gently grabbing their faces?

Better yet, they couldn't blitz her. Naruto went from needing diversions and distractions to land hits, to outright blitzing her without her so much as reacting.

The first thing she did was absorb everyone's chakra, and only went back to that world because she was drained. If you can't piece together that much then.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 16, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Madara with Edo Hashirama's Sage Mode withstood hits from all Bijuu's. You can apply that durability feat to SM Hashirama, easily.
> 
> However, is this still going on? Does he have half of Hagoromo's chakra? If so, then Hashirama gets speedblitzed, SM or not.


And yet he got stuck-through by sand bullets and was avoiding Edo Tobirama's Kunai & Mouth Senbon. 

Sasuke's Meteor busting Raiton Blade would slice him clean in half or simply obliterate him.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 16, 2015)

Hashirama stomps.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 16, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> You know that's CQC how? The next we see them Mads has a wood dragon wrapped around him.


hashirama had just applied the wood dragon here.

*Spoiler*: __ 








which means that the clash that happens here

*Spoiler*: __ 







is before the wood dragon was used.
their entire fight was cqc from the moment that obito summoned the shinju. im not sure why this would be any different.



> Actual best feat
> Actual best feat
> Spot the difference.
> 
> ...


sure, the difference is that the rasengan that naruto used in his final clash against sasuke is stronger than the rasengan that he used prior. my point stands.
the rasengan that he used against sasuke initially was the same size that its always been.



> The whole point of blitzing is attacking before a defense or counter can be made in the first place. That whole "only if Hashi doesn't have a defense up" crap is moot.
> 
> If he can take of Kaguya's hand without resistance or her so much as reacting to it, he can take off Hashi's head without resistance, and yes, Sasuke is as fast as Naruto going by this movie. Not like he needs to be that fast to blitz Hashi anyway.


sadly for your argument, it doesnt quite work like that. otherwise, naruto wouldve blitzed sasuke as well as momoshiki with his shunshin.
all this means is that naruto can blitz hashirama under the same conditions that kaguya was blitzed under.



> 8 gates cause far more damage than those before it so they can't be used as a measure.


_"8th gate is "different", so i can make as many assumptions as i want." _ 
thats your argument in a nutshell.
we can both play the ignorance card all day.

gai being bloodied with his jacket being ripped off means that madara tagged him. your hypothesis about gais clothes magically disappearing was disproved.


> She has the feat of reacting to Kaguya's tail that even Naruto said was fast. She also straight up blitzed Shin while you assert Sasuke can not. Maybe she's simply better than Hashi too.


sakura never blitzed shin.





> That's already chopped rubble, not a full meteor.


its one meteor chopped vertically and horizontally into 4 pieces.


> No. These aren't bigger than the Shinjuu by any stretch of the imagination.Actual best feat
> 
> Why even post a completely different tree as evidence.
> 
> ...


the CT are elevated miles above the shinjus stump, therefore your comparison is irrelevant.
you're talking like the tree in the boruto movie wasnt a shinju and just some random tree. it being dead doesnt affect its size, so no. it being dead is irrelevant to discussion.

in the scan you are referring to, susano isnt seen simply because it is not in the panel.

unless you want to claim that naruto is the same size as PS, the only reason that the frs looks that big compared to PS is because they are closer to frame of perspective than PS. 
your comparison isnt even relevant, considering we already know how big PS is compared to a meteor via direct panel.



> Rikudo Chakra was to circumvent the Juubi Jin's immunity to ninjutsu. Hashi has no such immunity, and that thing can bust meteors now. A bit above Hashi's body's ability to tank anyway.
> Eiso is weaker than standard Chidori, and nothing is stopping him from using it if he pleases anyway.
> Whole new level of delusion
> Naruto and Kinshiki have feats of doing so, and Sasuke and Mads have feats above that. Hashirama does not.
> ...


eisou is weaker than chidori?

*Spoiler*: __ 








*Spoiler*: __ 







eisou isnt hitting hashirama due to even shin reacting to sasuke. coupled with sage mode, hashirama can flawlessly evade.
gai was never stated to be stronger than hashirama. im not sure where that even came from.

wait a second? you are blatantly acknowledging how big PS is compared to the shinjus stump


while knowing how the mokujin compares to PS

*Spoiler*: __ 








and even how shinsuusenju compares to the other mentioned constructs

*Spoiler*: __ 







*Spoiler*: __ 








and yet you're making a serious claim that hashiramas power *cannot *sever the shinju? 
you are claiming this even though you know that shinsuusenju dwarfs the stump several thousand times over with backpack included?
would chojo kebetsu bounce off the tree? your point will have to be ignored if your bias is going to be that blatantly obvious.


> So she didn't pop up behind them gently grabbing their faces?
> 
> Better yet, they couldn't blitz her. Naruto went from needing diversions and distractions to land hits, to outright blitzing her without her so much as reacting.
> 
> The first thing she did was absorb everyone's chakra, and only went back to that world because she was drained. If you can't piece together that much then.


kaguya flanked them using a portal, which says nothing about how her *stats* compare to theirs.
i know that she switched dimensions to regain chakra. after she absorbed chakra from the victims in IT, she was stronger than she was before as stated by zetsu.


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## Blu-ray (Sep 17, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> hashirama had just applied the wood dragon here.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



The amount of reach...

We didn't see their entire fight so that in itself is baseless. Time frame wise it was mere moments before Madara was wrapped in it. And above all else, the fact that Hashirama used wood dragon, _a ninjutsu_ means it's idiotic to claim they weren't using ninjutsu.



> sure, the difference is that the rasengan that naruto used in his final clash against sasuke is stronger than the rasengan that he used prior. my point stands.
> the rasengan that he used against sasuke initially was the same size that its always been.


Yet was weaker, judging by the damage output.



> sadly for your argument, it doesnt quite work like that. otherwise, naruto wouldve blitzed sasuke as well as momoshiki with his shunshin.
> all this means is that naruto can blitz hashirama under the same conditions that kaguya was blitzed under.


I don't even understand what you're saying here. Naruto wouldn't blitz Sasuke even if he could because of mindset, and Momoshiki is flat out above him in speed, strength and reflex.

What conditions where Kaguya under aside from chakra drain, which doesn't factor in according to you anyway? She was cleanly blitzed. She wasn't even distracted as she was staring right at him.



> _"8th gate is "different", so i can make as many assumptions as i want." _
> thats your argument in a nutshell.
> we can both play the ignorance card all day.
> 
> gai being bloodied with his jacket being ripped off means that madara tagged him. your hypothesis about gais clothes magically disappearing was disproved.



The 8th gate kills the user, something the previous ones don't do, and even they tear the body apart. That's not a fucking assumption.

An assumption is claiming something happened that we didn't even see or have proof of. Like Madara ripping that jacket off despite no ripped jacket to be seen.



> sakura never blitzed shin.


casually blocked a punch



> its one meteor chopped vertically and horizontally into 4 pieces.


It's not even a full view of the meteor, and the panel before this shows a meteor chopped in several pieces.



> the CT are elevated miles above the shinjus stump, therefore your comparison is irrelevant.
> you're talking like the tree in the boruto movie wasnt a shinju and just some random tree. it being dead doesnt affect its size, so no. it being dead is irrelevant to discussion.


It's a different Shinjuu, one that's dead and devoid of chakra. The one on earth was not. The villains' entire plot was to gather the Bijuu's chakra to try and restore it, something earth's Shinjuu had.



> in the scan you are referring to, susano isnt seen simply because it is not in the panel.
> 
> unless you want to claim that naruto is the same size as PS, the only reason that the frs looks that big compared to PS is because they are closer to frame of perspective than PS.
> your comparison isnt even relevant, considering we already know how big PS is compared to a meteor via direct panel.



It expanded, something RS is known to do, and PS was right next to them, hence Naruto being worried about them hitting him. Not a matter of perspective.



> eisou is weaker than chidori?
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Sasuke's intent was a paralyze Madara, so he could use Rikudo's seal, not impale him. Same reason he instructed Naruto to use a jutsu to bind him.

Also...


_"*Although it's less powerful than the "Chidori,"* it's increased range means there is less of a risk to the user. It also has the advantage of being able to be used for surprise attacks and capturings."_



> wait a second? you are blatantly acknowledging how big PS is compared to the shinjus stump
> 
> 
> while knowing how the mokujin compares to PS
> ...



First, wrong Shinjuu. 

Second, your entire reasoning here hangs on a flawed size=power basis. Madara's PS is not equal to post Rikudo's Sasuke's, nor is Shinsuusenju even close to it.



> kaguya flanked them using a portal, which says nothing about how her *stats* compare to theirs.
> i know that she switched dimensions to regain chakra. after she absorbed chakra from the victims in IT, she was stronger than she was before as stated by zetsu.



It certainly does given that she failed to do the same thing after using her dimension hop a few times. She only needed more chakra because she was depleted in the first place. I'm not going around in circles about this again.


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## Trojan (Sep 17, 2015)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> He can most certainly make it in the top 10.....Sheesh, what manga are you reading.
> 
> Naruto, Sasuke, Juubito, Juudara, Double Sharingan Kakashi, Kaguya. After that I fail to see who's above him in overall power. The problem with Hashi, again. He's tailor made to counter EMS Madara. Thus, land alterting attacks, large chakara constructs, and armies of fodder he can handle.
> 
> It's the opponents in which can pressure him directly that gives him trouble. Madara had far more success fighting him directly without all the extra's.



I think you are still living in the past dear. In no way, shape or form is Hashirama in top 10. 

Kaguya, Hagoromo, Hamaru, Asura, Indra, Momoshiki, Kinkshiki, Tonori, Naruto, Sasuke, Gai, Madara, Obito...etc etc and the list goes on and on.



> large chakara constructs,  and armies of fodder he can handle.



That's explain how he got his ass handled to him in the first War. lol

Even fodders can use massive stuff sweetheart. 

those walls are as big as the Juubi's TBB, made by fodders
Madara had far more success fighting him directly without all the extra's
This explosion is made by fodders

This huge hole
Madara had far more success fighting him directly without all the extra's

and even singular characters (Nagato/Gaara/Kimmimaro)
can do massive things that change the landscape. 



> , again. He's tailor made to counter EMS Madara


by this logic Hashirama is not even in the same level as any of the current Kages who were fighting Kinshiki/Momoshiki. lol


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 17, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> The amount of reach...
> 
> We didn't see their entire fight so that in itself is baseless. Time frame wise it was mere moments before Madara was wrapped in it. And above all else, the fact that Hashirama used wood dragon, _a ninjutsu_ means it's idiotic to claim they weren't using ninjutsu.


what we know is that ninjutsu was used after that clash.
we know that susano couldnt have been used since it was destroyed by quad bijudama, we know that no sort of forest creation was used because no mokuton was shown on the battlefield. we know that no katon was used due to the lack of flames in the panel of the clash.

that means that hashirama and madara were clashing the same way they were shown to prior

*Spoiler*: __ 








*Spoiler*: __ 







then the wood dragon was used to restrain madara.


> Yet was weaker, judging by the damage output.


and you are accusing me of reaching? what part of its damage output is inconsistent?



> I don't even understand what you're saying here. Naruto wouldn't blitz Sasuke even if he could because of mindset, and Momoshiki is flat out above him in speed, strength and reflex.
> 
> What conditions where Kaguya under aside from chakra drain, which doesn't factor in according to you anyway? She was cleanly blitzed. She wasn't even distracted as she was staring right at him.


mindset wouldnt prevent naruto from blitzing sasuke. it would prevent naruto from killing sasuke.
kaguya>momoshiki, yet not once was naruto capable of blitzing momoshiki.
what condition was kaguya under? one where she was just staying in one place stationary while talking.




> The 8th gate kills the user, something the previous ones don't do, and even they tear the body apart. That's not a fucking assumption.
> 
> An assumption is claiming something happened that we didn't even see or have proof of. Like Madara ripping that jacket off despite no ripped jacket to be seen.


thats nice. you still need to prove that the 8th gate causes the user to bleed profusely from their mouth. the damage from 8th gate was already illustrated. 

*Spoiler*: __ 







gai didnt even bleed after he burned out from night gai and his body was on the verge of disintegrating.
despite all this however, you still dont want to admit that madara damaged gai because it throws your little theory on physically slower opponents not being capable of hitting physically faster opponents out of the window.
oh, well. your denial doesnt concern me. as i said before, i just lay out facts as the manga presents them.



> [2]


she attacked him when he wasnt looking. she cant blitz him as shown by their fight.



> It's not even a full view of the meteor, and the panel before this shows a meteor chopped in several pieces.


what are you talking about? 

on this page we see PS flying up to a meteor

*Spoiler*: __ 








then on the next page PS chops said meteor into 4 pieces.

*Spoiler*: __ 







we dont need to see the entire meteor from a zoomed out view. we only need to see one of the quarters that sasukes PS cut and compare it to that.
we can clearly see that PS with wings extended is about half the width of a full meteor, so this idea of yours that madara meteors dwarf everything is pure fanfiction. that about wraps up this point of contention.


> It's a different Shinjuu, one that's dead and devoid of chakra. The one on earth was not. The villains' entire plot was to gather the Bijuu's chakra to try and restore it, something earth's Shinjuu had.



what does the shinju from momoshikis planet being dead have to do anything? he wanted to gather the bijus chakra to get it to produce the cinnabar panacea, the same fruit that kaguya ate. the shinju being dead has nothing to do with its size. stop bringing this up. its a useless point of contention.



> It expanded, something RS is known to do, and PS was right next to them, hence Naruto being worried about them hitting him. Not a matter of perspective.


the only time that frs has expanded is against pain and only the shuriken expanded, not the center. 
naruto was worried about hitting sasuke, which is why he threw his frs out of the path of PS, hence the perspective change.
you are basically saying that even though naruto was worried about hitting sasuke, he expanded rasenshurikens size, which would increase the chances of hitting sasuke.
in conclusion, you're wrong. the rasenshuriken are at most a little bigger than narutos body, and they look the way they do compared to susano because the frs are closer to the frame of perspective.



> Sasuke's intent was a paralyze Madara, so he could use Rikudo's seal, not impale him. Same reason he instructed Naruto to use a jutsu to bind him.
> 
> Also...
> 
> ...


yup, this is correct.


> First, wrong Shinjuu.
> 
> Second, your entire reasoning here hangs on a flawed size=power basis. Madara's PS is not equal to post Rikudo's Sasuke's, nor is Shinsuusenju even close to it.


the shinju from the boruto movie and in the manga are the same size. also, sasukes PS has not shown a single feat that would justify putting it over madaras other than PS chidori.

PS being bigger than the stump means that the shinju would get slashed down without resistance.
shinsuusenju literally being thousands of times bigger than PS and much more powerful means that the shinju would be reduced to a pile of splinters. 
there isnt anything else to say on this subject, especially since you gave no good reason for chojo kebetsu not destroying the shinju despite PS being bigger than the stump.



> It certainly does given that she failed to do the same thing after using her dimension hop a few times. She only needed more chakra because she was depleted in the first place. I'm not going around in circles about this again.


the 1st time she flanked them, they didnt realize it until it was too late. the next time she tried, naruto was expecting it.


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## Trojan (Sep 18, 2015)

I just read this debate about comparing the Shinju with Madara's PS and Hashirama's Buddha! 

Obviously the Shinju is much bigger/larger than them. lol 

Both Madara's PS and Hashirama's Wooden Human were inside Obito's barrier

[3]
their size was barely a fraction of the size of the barrier

now the Shinju
[3]
and that was at the start of the Shinju coming out, it was still getting bigger

What's up with the comparison.


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