# Prime Grindelwald w/Elder Wand vs Prime Voldemort



## WorldsStrongest (Sep 13, 2020)

Not exactly a big HP fan, but it always struck me as kinda odd that the dude described to merely "a shade less skillful" than Dumbledore loses the Number 1 spot as biggest bad of all time to a dude who never had the Elder Wand till the day he died basically.

Especially since even when he was older than dirt, Grindelwald without the wand and likely malnourished as fuck punked Voldemort in occlumency and legit laughed in his face and forced the dude to kill him.

So what else is there to consider here?

Whod really take it?

Voldey doesnt have the elder wand obviously.


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## AgentAAA (Sep 14, 2020)

Voldemort had to resort to using Dumbledore's morals against him to gain any sort of edge and still lost - handedly and without much of a fight - to a bloodlusted but Old as shit Dumbledore in a wizard's duel.

He did give Dumbledore a bit of a fight, but it's more just impressive that Dumbledore put in actual effort rather than the easy slap he gives anyone else.

Prime Dumbledore was far stronger than that, and Grindelwald kept their duel going for three hours.

Now, to be fair, Voldemort didn't have the elder wand. Now, I'd also say a lot of it comes down to the elder wand's boost, so I could see Grindelwald losing or having an even duel without  it, but I'd have a hard time seeing Voldemort winning vs a young grindelwald with elder wand.


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 14, 2020)

AgentAAA said:


> Voldemort had to resort to using Dumbledore's morals against him to gain any sort of edge and still lost - handedly and without much of a fight - to a bloodlusted but Old as shit Dumbledore in a wizard's duel.
> 
> He did give Dumbledore a bit of a fight, but it's more just impressive that Dumbledore put in actual effort rather than the easy slap he gives anyone else.
> 
> ...


So whats Voldeys most powerful dark wizard hype come from


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## J★J♥ (Sep 14, 2020)

Voldemort is more powerful than both Albus and Grindelwand.

He also did not have to exploit Dumbledoors morals to gain upperhand. They were talking about death and Dumbledoor said it was not worst thing that can happen to someone. Voldemort took offense to that and posessed Harry to show dumbledoor that he would not sacrafice boy to save countless others 

Voldy and Albus with Elder wand clashed evenly until Aurors showed up and Voldy run away.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 14, 2020)

Don't forget that Dumbledoor got fucked both times he tried to get past Voldemorts curses in horcrux hiding places. He could not simply overpower Voldemorts magic even with elder wand.

And Elder wand is not just some minor power up. Harry a shittier wizard was able to repair broken wand even Oliwander was unable to fix and he did it with simple reparo spell that Hermione knew even before Hogwarts.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 15, 2020)

It's something like this:

Gindelwald young with super wand=/<Dumbledore young<<<Voldemort<Old Dumbledore with the super wand


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## Velocity (Sep 15, 2020)

Voldemort fought equally with Dumbledore + Elder Wand in the fifth book. With the Elder Wand himself, Voldemort was practically unbeatable. 

The only reason he lost to Harry is because Snape intentionally misled him, making Voldemort think that killing him would make him master of the Elder Wand when, in reality, Harry was ever since he disarmed Malfoy.

Grindelwald with the Elder Wand would probably lose to Voldemort, in reality, given that I'm pretty sure he had the Elder Wand and still lost to Dumbledore.

It should go...

Voldemort = Dumbledore w/ Elder Wand > Dumbledore w/o Elder Wand > Grindelwald w/ Elder Wand


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## J★J♥ (Sep 15, 2020)

Velocity said:


> Voldemort fought equally with Dumbledore + Elder Wand in the fifth book. With the Elder Wand himself, Voldemort was practically unbeatable.
> 
> The only reason he lost to Harry is because Snape intentionally misled him, making Voldemort think that killing him would make him master of the Elder Wand when, in reality, Harry was ever since he disarmed Malfoy.
> 
> ...


Voldemort never had true possession of Elder Wand. It was Draco who disarmed Dumbledore, but Voldemort thought snape was wands true master and killed him. 
Harry disarmed Draco in the Malfoy manor so he was the true master of the wand when Voldemort had it.


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## Velocity (Sep 15, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> Voldemort never had true possession of Elder Wand. It was Draco who disarmed Dumbledore, but Voldemort thought snape was wands true master and killed him.
> Harry disarmed Draco in the Malfoy manor so he was the true master of the wand when Voldemort had it.



That's what I said.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 15, 2020)

Velocity said:


> That's what I said.


You also said Voldemord with elder wand was unstoppable


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## Velocity (Sep 15, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> You also said Voldemord with elder wand was unstoppable



He was. Nobody could actually beat him in a fight with it, even with it not recognising him as its true master. Harry only won because the Elder Wand betrayed him.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 15, 2020)

Velocity said:


> He was. Nobody could actually beat him in a fight with it, even with it not recognising him as its true master. Harry only won because the Elder Wand betrayed him.


Noone could beat him even without it. Only one who could even put up a fight was dead  remember the conversation he has with someone i forgot who. He says that wand does not increase his powers and other person says that he has seen Voldemort perform miracles with elder wand and then Voldemort says thats average magic for him


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## Velocity (Sep 15, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> Noone could beat him even without it. Only one who could even put up a fight was dead  remember the conversation he has with someone i forgot who. He says that wand does not increase his powers and other person says that he has seen Voldemort perform miracles with elder wand and then Voldemort says thats average magic for him



Yeah, he said something along the lines that it wasn't the wand that was doing incredible things it was just him. That was around the time he realised that the Elder Wand did not see him as its true master and so went to kill Snape, who he believed was.


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## JayK (Sep 15, 2020)

Dumbledore > Voldemort > Grindelwald

Dumbledore w/ Elderwand > Old Dumbledore w/ Elderwand > Voldemort *with Elderwand* >= Voldemort > Grindle anything

also lol @ Voldemort going even with Old Dumbledore when the former literally had to resort to an emergency strategy by invading Harry's mind


WorldsStrongest said:


> So whats Voldeys most powerful dark wizard hype come from


because he in fact is the most powerful Dark Wizard to ever have lived

The gap between Dumble and Voldemort without the Elderwand coming into equation is quite tight. You could even come to the conclusion that the wand didn't matter all too much for either one due to how powerful they already were.


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## Venice (Sep 23, 2020)

Voldemort is stated to be the most powerful Dark Wizard of all time in multiple sources including the books so he wins. 

And no, Voldemort is not equal or stronger than Dumbledore. Dumbledore is nearly his own tier with the Elder Wand, read the book version of Order of the Phoenix fight. The film makes Voldemort equal Dumbledore while in the book he was no match for him and practically lost.


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 23, 2020)

Venice said:


> Voldemort is stated to be the most powerful Dark Wizard of all time in multiple sources including the books so he wins.
> 
> And no, Voldemort is not equal or stronger than Dumbledore. Dumbledore is nearly his own tier with the Elder Wand, read the book version of Order of the Phoenix fight. The film makes Voldemort equal Dumbledore while in the book he was no match for him and practically lost.


Yeah I recall in the books Dumbledore has him dead to rights with that water globe move

Think he retreats after that doesnt he?

In the movies he just busts at and does some weird move with the glass

Looks way closer


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 23, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> So whats Voldeys most powerful dark wizard hype come from



While his mother came from a very old line of pure blooded wizards, connected to one of the founders IIRC his father was some rando regular dude albeit very wealthy. Riddle himself was the product of rape by the mother upon the father.

The reason he was so scary was the notion that some trailer trash halfbreed could become so strong fucked with Wizarding society. Not to mention his obsession with world domination made him Grendelwald 2.0.

He did resurrect some dead magic, like learning to fly and the lich gimmick though. But the impression I got was that Gellert was more powerful, while Riddle was more sadistic, cruel and savage and perpetrated way more terrorism.


Riddle backed up by Bellatrix took on Albus who basically turned a bunch of statues into battle bots and pinned Lestrange down before focusing on Riddle and that wasn't even remotely close to a fight...Hell Dumbledore wasn't even nervous, the guy was mocking Riddle with a level of ease that a fucker might have in his voice ordering pizza.

The whole fight was Albus driving Riddle back until he had to bail.



Venice said:


> Voldemort is stated to be the most powerful Dark Wizard of all time in multiple sources including the books so he wins.



Statements, even word of God has no value unless directly supported by feats.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 23, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Riddle backed up by Bellatrix took on Albus who basically turned a bunch of statues into battle bots and pinned Lestrange down before focusing on Riddle and that wasn't even remotely close to a fight...Hell Dumbledore wasn't even nervous, the guy was mocking Riddle with a level of ease that a fucker might have in his voice ordering pizza.


Yeah the movie REALLY presents a disgusting representation of Voldey stacked up to Dumbledore then 

The film has it look very even, but if Dumbledore had him decimate Voldey who had backup then in my mind this just became a LOT more likely that Grindelwald wins here

Sure Elder Dumbledore > Base Dumbledore >= Elder Grindlewald, but its not like Voldey scales to Elder Dumbledore like I thought he did

So I guess shits back up in the air again

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Grinningfox (Sep 23, 2020)

Honestly I think Grindy takes it


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 23, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Yeah the movie REALLY presents a disgusting representation of Voldey stacked up to Dumbledore then ]



Dumbledore legit conjures a statue to just sit on Lestrange and doesn't even really pay her much attention..even when she's going ape shit at him.

It's also the only place where you see Aveda Cadavra used against inanimate objects IIRC and it's actually one of the better destructive capacity feats in HP. This huge ass solid gold statue gets animated by Dumbledore to jump in the way of a killing curse and the thing just explodes in a rain of molten slag 

Wasn't enough though, Riddle was shit out of luck in that fight and basically barely holding on. He was basically fighting the furniture and the kitchen sink while Dumbledore ho hummed about what a shithead Riddle was. 

 whereas Dumbledore spent several years ducking a fight with Grendelwald both out of his fear of becoming an oath breaker and because he was legitimately unsure who would win in a fight between him and Grendelwald. Which tells you just how dangerous the fucker was, when Albus "Statues become my Stands" Dumbledore was unsure how it would go.


WorldsStrongest said:


> The film has it look very even, but if Dumbledore had him decimate Voldey who had backup then in my mind this just became a LOT more likely that Grindelwald wins here
> 
> Sure Elder Dumbledore > Base Dumbledore >= Elder Grindlewald, but its not like Voldey scales to Elder Dumbledore like I thought he did
> 
> So I guess shits back up in the air again



Even in the film I'd hardly call it even...Riddle was howling with effort and Dumbledore was casually matching him while looking vexed. Even during their weird ass anime style beam struggle when Riddle was trying to redirect the sparks that bled off their exchange to strike Harry, Albus counters...When Voldemort summons fendfyre...Dumbledore just dismisses that shit and blows it back in his face.

And this is while he spends a decent portion of the fight diverting attention to Harry so he can telekenically throw his ass back to keep him from getting killed by the bleed off. Dumbledore damn near drowns him and Riddle is only able to escape because again, Dumbledore has to focus on Harry...

And then he tries to swiss cheese them with broken glass only for that shit to be turned into sand..and you can see it in his eyes as he books it...He was pretty rattled.

He fucked with Potter to save face..it was akin to Mephisto shit talking Galactus after Big G started eating his hell dimension when Mephy refused to turn over his heralds and ended up surrendering them any way.

I don't really recall seeing either fight as close.

It's just one was vastly more one sided than the other...


Edit- Going by movie Feats, Grendewald is retardedly more powerful than Riddle as well..like so much so...it gets annoying.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 23, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Edit- Going by movie Feats, Grendewald is retardedly more powerful than Riddle as well..like so much so...it gets annoying.


Yeah...His fucking badass Flame demon/dragon thing was one of the only things I enjoyed about that movie

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Grinningfox (Sep 23, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Dumbledore legit conjures a statue to just sit on Lestrange and doesn't even really pay her much attention..even when she's going ape shit at him.
> 
> It's also the only place where you see Aveda Cadavra used against inanimate objects IIRC and it's actually one of the better destructive capacity feats in HP. This huge ass solid gold statue gets animated by Dumbledore to jump in the way of a killing curse and the thing just explodes in a rain of molten slag
> 
> ...


 Yeah his feats in Paris are ridiculous

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Grinningfox (Sep 23, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Yeah...His fucking badass Flame demon/dragon thing was one of the only things I enjoyed about that movie


Didn’t Flamel state that it would destroy Paris if it wasn’t stopped ?

causes that’s stupidly above what Voldy has shown


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 23, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Yeah...His fucking badass Flame demon/dragon thing was one of the only things I enjoyed about that movie



And the first one? Where he's just fighting the entire US magical police force? Even Riddle wasn't trying to take on the entire Auror Division at the same time.

Gellert was like "SMH Wop pigs" 



Grinningfox said:


> Yeah his feats in Paris are ridiculous



Everything he did was ridiculous..if that garbage gets another sequel Dumbledore is gonna have to bust out some supersaiyan shit to keep up with his hype.


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## Grinningfox (Sep 23, 2020)

And wasn’t he about to solo stomp a room full of Aurors before Newt’s Pokémon cucked him ?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Grinningfox (Sep 23, 2020)

Ninja’d


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 23, 2020)

Riddle at the very end of his life, when he was busting out with magical spells that hadn't been used in nearly a thousand years and shit.._might _be a closer fight.

But honestly, when the dude who decides that pulling a Disney's Sword and the Stone on your ass and conjuring an army of office chairs is more amusing than fighting you directly...goes "Yeah..I wasn't entirely sure if I could beat that guy..I mean I was pretty sure..buuuutt"...You're probably outgunned.

edit- That reminds me of when I put Merlin from Sword in the Stone against Voldemort on CBR in 08 and all the HP fans seethed because Merlin shit kicked him into next Tuesday.


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 23, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> And the first one? Where he's just fighting the entire US magical police force? Even Riddle wasn't trying to take on the entire Auror Division at the same time.


I didnt recall grindy being in the first film 

Not in an open role anyway

Thought he was undercover or whatever


Grinningfox said:


> Didn’t Flamel state that it would destroy Paris if it wasn’t stopped ?


That he did

Think it required a bunch of Aurors to stop it as well


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 23, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I didnt recall grindy being in the first film
> 
> Not in an open role anyway
> 
> Thought he was undercover or whatever



He was the police chief guy who did stomp on the aurors for a bit.


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## Grinningfox (Sep 23, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I didnt recall grindy being in the first film
> 
> Not in an open role anyway
> 
> ...



Here ya go

look at the Head person or whatever’s face 

She basically shitting herself


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 23, 2020)

Grinningfox said:


> Here ya go
> 
> look at the Head person or whatever’s face
> 
> She basically shitting herself



He wasn't even bothering to attack them, just killing them with their own spells...vs Riddle who needed his Death Eaters to handle the DA.


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## Grinningfox (Sep 23, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> He wasn't even bothering to attack them, just killing them with their own spells...vs Riddle who needed his Death Eaters to handle the DA.


He legit looked bored and annoyed that he had to waste his time


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 23, 2020)

Grinningfox said:


> He legit looked bored and annoyed that he had to waste his time



Compare that with needing your homies to rag doll some teenagers until the boomer squad shows up and then you just get abandoned by your cheer leader as grandpa chad shows up and you're stuck fighting for your life against the dude who was like "yup in my Youth I used to do 25 reps of 250 on a curl son" 

At least movie wise, there's not even a debate, Grendelwald wouldn't even notice Tom...

Bookwise, it would still be pretty bad, but at least at his absolute nastiest, he'd have the raw power (four of the strongest duelists in Magical England were being thrown around like ragdolls from merely blocking his spells) and the flight and other tricks that would make it last.

I'm pretty sure he'd still lose, if not by power, by superior skill and experience...But it wouldn't be as bad as "I am lord voldemort!! Ree" with him getting one shotted into ash as Grendelwald looks around all "Huh? What the fuck was that?"


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## Crimson Dragoon (Sep 23, 2020)

I can't wait for Grindelwald to pull Dragon of the Darkness Flame out of his ass in the next movie

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 23, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Compare that with needing your homies to rag doll some teenagers until the boomer squad shows up and then you just get abandoned by your cheer leader as grandpa chad shows up and you're stuck fighting for your life against the dude who was like "yup in my Youth I used to do 25 reps of 250 on a curl son"
> 
> At least movie wise, there's not even a debate, Grendelwald wouldn't even notice Tom...
> 
> ...


Yeah reason i made the thread was after seeing Grindy in the film like

"Wait...THIS guys  the NUMBER 2 Bad guy??? What a crock "



2nd place...Right 

Dude didnt even stay around to MAINTAIN that dragon either 

Was legit like "Fuck Paris" left and sicced 3 fire demons on it 

The aurors could barely deal with this dudes spells when he wasnt even around using them 


Crimson Dragoon said:


> I can't wait for Grindelwald to pull Dragon of the Darkness Flame out of his ass in the next movie


Same

Dont much care for HP but Im stoked to see Grindy and Jude go at it


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 23, 2020)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I can't wait for Grindelwald to pull Dragon of the Darkness Flame out of his ass in the next movie



Yeah its gone well beyond "peer of the strongest white wizard since Merlin" to "Avengers villain"

Seriously film gredelwald wouldn't be out of line as a mid level MCU villain


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## Venice (Sep 23, 2020)

I also would like to point out that the statement of Dumbledore vs. GW being the most amazing and most powerful duel of all recorded history is said in Deathly Hallows well after Dumbledore vs. Voldemort. 


Another interesting to note is the Wizarding world site which replaced Pottermore removed Voldemort's statement of being the strongest wizard of all time.


I still think Voldemort should win but I won't deny there's a high chance Grindelwald will be retconned to be the strongest if not already the strongest. Hope we see city destroying stuff in the sequels.


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## Amol (Sep 24, 2020)

Grindelwald(and thus young Dumbledore) benefits from being in films oriented at adults with adult protagonist. Voldemort was villain in movies which at least for first half were made for children. It is power inflation.
By pure feats level perspective Grindelwald should win (though Dumbledore obviously would have better feats in next movie).
Though if JK Rowling wrote this fight she will have Voldemort win .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Steven (Sep 24, 2020)

Voldemort just spam avada kedavra and calls it a day


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 24, 2020)

Acno said:


> Voldemort just spam avada kedavra and calls it a day



Because that worked so well against dumbledore


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## AgentAAA (Sep 24, 2020)

Grindy knows the curse too, IIRC.

I think Voldy might not lose every fight, but that's mainly because he does seem to have a pretty decent hold of a lot of exotic spells. He doesn't have the duelling experience, the raw power, and probably is missing the skill, but he's for sure spent a lot of time looking at exotic lore and learning spells from it. While I can't name any he's shown (because rowling lazy a lot), I imagine the 1/10 is him just bringing out something Grindelwald's never seen before that he found through research.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 24, 2020)

AgentAAA said:


> Grindy knows the curse too, IIRC.
> 
> I think Voldy might not lose every fight, but that's mainly because he does seem to have a pretty decent hold of a lot of exotic spells. He doesn't have the duelling experience, the raw power, and probably is missing the skill, but he's for sure spent a lot of time looking at exotic lore and learning spells from it. While I can't name any he's shown (because rowling lazy a lot), I imagine the 1/10 is him just bringing out something Grindelwald's never seen before that he found through research.



Honestly Riddle might have more raw power than either Grendelwald or Albus in the novels, the fact that basic ass blasting spells he tossed out before his death were enough to send Shackebolt and Flitwick and Macgonagal I think it was..flying around like kites caught in a tornado is pretty wild. You're talking about some serious muscle and he was just straight bullying them without really trying if I'm remembering the text right.

Problem is, that brute force meant fuck all against Albus and it's going to mean fuck all against a guy Dumbledore in his prime needed everything he had in the tank and then some and a three hour long duel to beat. 

Movie wise lul....That shit was retarded.


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## Steven (Sep 24, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Because that worked so well against dumbledore


The fight was pretty even tbf

Voldemort casual busted the waterdome


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 24, 2020)

Acno said:


> The fight was pretty even tbf
> 
> Voldemort casual busted the waterdome



That was the movie..and it wasn't evenly matched at all...Albus countered all of Voldy's shit with minimal effort while the dude was howling with exertion and chimping out.

Novel wise..looool, that was even worse. Dumbledore wasn't even trying to kill him and was countering everything Riddle did, summoning statues at him, wrapping him up in ropes of fire, then Dumbledore's fucking bird cucks Riddle's death curse and Albus wraps him up in water...Which Riddle was helpless to bust out of. Dude had to teleport out, which is when Riddle tried to possess Harry to force Albus to kill him and that ended with his inbred zombie ass being BTFO'd by "love magic"

It was a close fight but one Albus was winning in the movies.

In the Book? It was a complete curbstomp and Dumbledore was busy warning the ministry, protecting Harry _and cornering voldy's skank.
_
And this was while, not using lethal force.

No, there was nothing even about that.


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## The Runner (Sep 24, 2020)

To be fair, this was Dumbles with the most powerful wand in existence


Granted, this means that Young Dumbles and Alberforth were straight up absolute monsters considering they were able to stalemate each other along with Grindlewald


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 24, 2020)

The Runner said:


> To be fair, this was Dumbles with the most powerful wand in existence



Didn't he win that by defeating Grendewald though?



The Runner said:


> Granted, this means that Young Dumbles and Alberforth were straight up absolute monsters considering they were able to stalemate each other along with Grindlewald



Abernforth Dumbledore, the only Dumbledore with the common sense to just go drink beer

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Runner (Sep 24, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Didn't he win that by defeating Grendewald though?


Yeah. That says more about Young Albus than Grindelwald.


Did Grindelwald have that wand when they did the three way fight or only during the final schism?


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## The Runner (Sep 24, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Abernforth Dumbledore, the only Dumbledore with the common sense to just go drink beer


He was also right about his brother.


Harry was basically coaxed into being a pig for slaughter, for the greater good.


Dumbles is not as benevolent as he leads you to believe


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## J★J♥ (Sep 24, 2020)

The Runner said:


> He was also right about his brother.
> 
> 
> Harry was basically coaxed into being a pig for slaughter, for the greater good.
> ...


Not really. Dumbledore made Harry master of death before sending him to "die". Snape was overreacting because Dumbledore did not tell him about hollows and he did not know what was going on.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 25, 2020)

The Runner said:


> Dumbles is not as benevolent as he leads you to believe



To be fair Albus doesn't hide what a cynical asshole he really is.

Everyone is just dumb enough to ignore his disclaimers and believe the pop cultural myth of Albus Dumnbledore.


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## B Rabbit (Sep 26, 2020)

The way the movie powercreeps are going. Dumbledore vs. Yeehaw will be a 50/50 match.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 27, 2020)

B Rabbit said:


> The way the movie powercreeps are going. Dumbledore vs. Yeehaw will be a 50/50 match.



Thanos vs Dumbledore when?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Sep 27, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Thanos vs Dumbledore when?


if it's MCU, Thanos still has to get past the Twilight vampires according to SB


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## J★J♥ (Sep 28, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Yeah reason i made the thread was after seeing Grindy in the film like
> 
> "Wait...THIS guys  the NUMBER 2 Bad guy??? What a crock "
> 
> ...


That's not better or worse than Goyles Fiendfyre. Except Goyle was a fat idiot and could not control it.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 28, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> That's not better or worse than Goyles Fiendfyre. Except Goyle was a fat idiot and could not control it.



Goyle wasn't about to pancake a decent chunk of a city nor did he kill a bunch of experience wizards with it.


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## J★J♥ (Sep 28, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Goyle wasn't about to pancake a decent chunk of a city nor did he kill a bunch of experience wizards with it.


Yet Fiendfyre is one of the few things powerful enough to destroy horcrux and I'm not completely sure that flames Grindelwald used were not it


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 28, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> Yet Fiendfyre is one of the few things powerful enough to destroy horcrux and I'm not completely sure that flames Grindelwald used were not it



Naw, it was something called _Protegio Diabolica 
_
Totally different spell and far more precise and guided. It's designed specifically to target the enemies of its caster and leave everyone else alive..Fendfyre is like napalm, and its specifically a different thing.


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## The Runner (Sep 28, 2020)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> if it's MCU, Thanos still has to get past the Twilight vampires according to SB


I can legit see them arguing: 

 “Hey, Captain America struggled with Thanos, and Twilight Vampires are stronger than Captain America, so Thanos without the stones would LOSE to a bunch of them!!”


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 29, 2020)

Dumbledore himself said Voldemort had skills he could never had, and ultimately died to the traps Riddle used to cprotect his Horrocruxes, when they dueled Albus had the advantage but he knew he wasn't going to be able to defeat Tom. All this with the super wand that allows even Harry to do near impossible things.

Grindelwalth (unless it gets retconned later) was defeated by Dumbledore despite having the super wand, meaning Albus own power dwarfed Gellert's own and Tom was likely stronger than either of them.

Voldemort does only two things in the whole series, fight Dumbledore in the 5 book and the war in the 7 book where he is nerfed by the super wand acting up since it belonged to Harry, so with a worst wand than his own he easily defeated multiple top fighters.

In the movie he also breaches  the giant eradicator force field by himself, Gellert has nothing on that.


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 29, 2020)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> In the movie he also breaches the giant eradicator force field by himself


Uh

No

His entire army was attacking it for like ever before he took shots at it

Beyond dishonest to say he solod that barrier

And I really dont think that barrier is as impressive as making fire dragons that threaten the entire city of Paris...Without the caster even directly BEING there...


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 29, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Uh
> 
> No
> 
> ...



They attacked but they didn't do any real damage to the thing until Voldemort got tired of waiting, and he did that while having problems to use the super wand.

The dragon thing is meaningless since it seems related to fiendfire in that it self-sustains itself and has far more power than the user, look at the one Goyle used which devoured everything in the room of requirement including an Horrorcrux which are immune to nearly anything in the setting. Either Dumbledore or Voldemort can replicate the feat just because they are canonically stronger than Gellert.

Dumbledore with super wand (far wiser and stronger than when he defeated Grindelwald) was forced to play by Voldemort's rules when trying to obtain the Horrocruxes, one of those would have been impossible without Harry's help and ultimately killed Albus.


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## AgentAAA (Sep 29, 2020)

I think there's a bit of an issue here - Traps and shit being laid and set for an unknown amount of time doesn't seem like the easiest way to manage this. this isn't DBZ with power levels, Dumbledore having to deal with shitty dungeons and a bunch of different hax seems like a bit of a lark to try and compare. Can't name a great time off the top of my head, but as far as I know Voldemort had problems piercing Albus's defenses, too. It's not smart to equate big traps in an unknown timescale to their duelling skills, especially given everyone's still regular human durability in HP..


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 29, 2020)

Had problems is putting it gently as well.

Tom was screwed in the one fight we saw on paper and Albus was focused on three different things during


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 29, 2020)

Also...Wasnt Hogwarts regarded as literally the safest place on the planet during Toms reign in either of his wars 

Because of ol Dumby and essentially him alone 

Citing Dumby as having issues with Toms dungeons which he ventured into SOLO to Tom with all of his Death-eating hordes not wanting to fuck with Hogwarts seems pretty futile to end in Toms favor


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 29, 2020)

AgentAAA said:


> I think there's a bit of an issue here - Traps and shit being laid and set for an unknown amount of time doesn't seem like the easiest way to manage this. this isn't DBZ with power levels, Dumbledore having to deal with shitty dungeons and a bunch of different hax seems like a bit of a lark to try and compare. Can't name a great time off the top of my head, but as far as I know Voldemort had problems piercing Albus's defenses, too. It's not smart to equate big traps in an unknown timescale to their duelling skills, especially given everyone's still regular human durability in HP..



Well it means even with the super wand which is mean to make average users unbeatable Dumbledore couldn't undo the traps, meaning he can't simply overpower Voldemort and there's skills Tom has that Albus don't.

A more direct comparison is that the movie version had them do a beam clash, Dumbledore was overpowering Vodemort but it took a lot of effort, same as countering the fire snake.




WorldsStrongest said:


> Also...Wasnt Hogwarts regarded as literally the safest place on the planet during Toms reign in either of his wars
> 
> Because of ol Dumby and essentially him alone
> 
> Citing Dumby as having issues with Toms dungeons which he ventured into SOLO to Tom with all of his Death-eating hordes not wanting to fuck with Hogwarts seems pretty futile to end in Toms favor



Well yeah, Voldemorth wasn't sure if he could beat Dumbledore and at his core he is a coward, just getting into Howards would have been easy.


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## Akabara Strauss (Sep 29, 2020)

Dumbledore still managed to effortlessly breach all the traps of the single horcrux dungeon we saw. The only issue being the mindfuck potion, which indeed drained Dumbledore to degree, but he still managed to conjure a huge flame to essentially wipe off the Inferi.

The ring horcrux only managed to curse Dumbledore because he lost himself when he realized it was the Resurrection Stone, it being the only hallow he desired most becuase he wanted to see his sister again, so he used it before purifying the curse. Snape even remarked that surely Dumbledore must have know there is a curse and yet he still used it.

Voldemort's hype as number 1 Dark Wizard essentially came from his knowledge of esoteric arts such as horcrux and his body count. Dumbledore implied that he killed enough to make an army of Inferi. Grindelwald didn't outright kill he created a prison for his enemies instead of killing them.

Has the feat of Dumbledore casually blanketing London in a fog been calc'd? In the prequels all of Dumbledore's spells are casual and effortless including his BFR gloves ans this is before he acquired the elder wand.


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## AgentAAA (Sep 30, 2020)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Well it means even with the super wand which is mean to make average users unbeatable Dumbledore couldn't undo the traps, meaning he can't simply overpower Voldemort and there's skills Tom has that Albus don't.



Tom does have skills albus don't. his spell library's probably one of the most extensive and includes plenty of shit otherwise lost to time.

But the super wand just makes you really good at duels and lets you do more powerful magic than normal. it doesn't give hax resistance or let you avoid the effects of spells cast. hell, it's noted to not be an unbeatable wand just due to it's own line of succession. Nor does it make you more immune to clever tricks - just a bit better at overpowering. There's supposedly a giant list of people killing other people to get the wand, and it most likely involves a lot of charms, jinxes, hexes, and occasionally a good ol' knife to the belly by surprise.

And, again, it just means that riddle with near unlimited prep time can make traps that can get to dumbledore without prep. that's as much as you can infer from the trap dungeons ever.


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## Venice (Oct 1, 2020)

Akabara Strauss said:


> Dumbledore still managed to effortlessly breach all the traps of the single horcrux dungeon we saw. The only issue being the mindfuck potion, which indeed drained Dumbledore to degree, but he still managed to conjure a huge flame to essentially wipe off the Inferi.
> 
> The ring horcrux only managed to curse Dumbledore because he lost himself when he realized it was the Resurrection Stone, it being the only hallow he desired most becuase he wanted to see his sister again, so he used it before purifying the curse. Snape even remarked that surely Dumbledore must have know there is a curse and yet he still used it.
> 
> ...




Vs wikia has the fog feat at small town level for what that's worth.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 1, 2020)

Venice said:


> Vs wikia has the fog feat at small town level for what that's worth.



No one cares what VBW thinks


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## Cichy (Oct 4, 2020)

Voldemort being most powerful dark wizard is pretty much canon in the saga. 

Most of Grindelwald's wank comes specifically from his protego diabolica feat, but I don't think something like this is beyond Voldemorts capablities. In the same movie Credence pulverised a mountainside after grabbing a wound for the first time. Peter Petegrew could apparently blow up the entire street with a single blasting curse and he was suposed to be mid-tier vizard in the first place.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 5, 2020)

Cichy said:


> Voldemort being most powerful dark wizard is pretty much canon in the saga.
> 
> Most of Grindelwald's wank comes specifically from his protego diabolica feat, but I don't think something like this is beyond Voldemorts capablities. In the same movie Credence pulverised a mountainside after grabbing a wound for the first time. Peter Petegrew could apparently blow up the entire street with a single blasting curse and he was suposed to be mid-tier vizard in the first place.


Peters go to spell was bombarda and he hit a gas pipe.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 5, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> Peters go to spell was bombarda and he hit a gas pipe.



Was this described elsewhere?

Because  is what I found of it years ago with ctrl+F for if I ever got bored enough to evaluate it.

Seems like a pretty cut and dry feat, with the only pipes mentioned being the sewers.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 5, 2020)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Was this described elsewhere?
> 
> Because  is what I found of it years ago with ctrl+F for if I ever got bored enough to evaluate it.
> 
> Seems like a pretty cut and dry feat, with the only pipes mentioned being the sewers.


pretty sure it is. Ill take a look at the book later and try to find exact quote im thinking of.

It was reported in muggle news that it was exploding gas pipe that caused devastation.
Could be a ministry covering up the fight or both.

_"Just before he transformed. When I cornered him, he yelled for the whole street to hear that I’d betrayed Lily and James. Then, before I could curse him, he blew apart the street with the wand behind his back, killed everyone within twenty feet of himself — and sped down into the sewer with the other rats…" _


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## Amol (Oct 5, 2020)

Gas Pipeline explanation was given to Muggle population to explain why that Street exploded .
No actual gas Pipeline exploded there.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 5, 2020)

Amol said:


> Gas Pipeline explanation was given to Muggle population to explain why that Street exploded .
> No actual gas Pipeline exploded there.


But their department of muggle relations is  do they even know what a gas pipe is ?


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## AgentAAA (Oct 5, 2020)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Well it means even with the super wand which is mean to make average users unbeatable Dumbledore couldn't undo the traps, meaning he can't simply overpower Voldemort and there's skills Tom has that Albus don't.



Yeah, except that's, again, where I think we are differing here:
Voldemort with unlimited prep time and the ability to use spells in a much more free-form way to create scenarios lets him use his spell library in a far more effective and powerful fashion than he might in a duel. most of what he was using in that cave flat-out doesn't work in a duelling context. 

It is true that dumbledore couldn't just overpower the traps. that's because this is not a series where your power level lets you casually overpower any magical obstacle just by having a higher one.

It's equally true that this does not equate - at all - to his duelling skills, especially when we have direct evidence in the books of how Albus Vs. Voldemort goes which completely trumps Voldy's showings in making a nice DnD dungeon


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 5, 2020)

Applying shounen logic to urban fantasy that isnt YYH


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## Phenomenon (Oct 12, 2020)

Grindelwald imo is a superior duelist but overall less powerful, Horcruxes aside Voldemort isn't even as impressive as fans make him out to be.

Grindelwald fought Dumbledore for hours yet Voldemort couldn't beat Dumbledore protecting Harry nor using Fawkes as a last resort to parry a spell Voldemort is overrated as shit.

Dumbledore>Grindelwald>Voldemort in a duel.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 12, 2020)

Phenomenon said:


> Grindelwald imo is a superior duelist but overall less powerful, Horcruxes aside Voldemort isn't even as impressive as fans make him out to be.
> 
> Grindelwald fought Dumbledore for hours yet Voldemort couldn't beat Dumbledore protecting Harry nor using Fawkes as a last resort to parry a spell Voldemort is overrated as shit.
> 
> Dumbledore>Grindelwald>Voldemort in a duel.


That's because Rowling was extremely bad at scaling and portrayal. Look at moody storywise he is a beast, he filled half of the Azkaban by himself with deatheaters, but somehow by feats he's shit.


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## Cichy (Oct 12, 2020)

Phenomenon said:


> Grindelwald fought Dumbledore for hours yet Voldemort couldn't beat Dumbledore protecting Harry nor using Fawkes as a last resort to parry a spell Voldemort is overrated as shit.


???

Have you missed that moment where Fawkes literally has to fly in front of Voldemort's killing curse in order to save Dumbledore when he was dealing with fire snake?

We never learned if Voldemort truelly couldn't beat him, because the duel was interrupted.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Phenomenon (Oct 12, 2020)

Cichy said:


> ???
> 
> Have you missed that moment where Fawkes literally has to fly in front of Voldemort's killing curse in order to save Dumbledore when he was dealing with fire snake?
> 
> We never learned if Voldemort truelly couldn't beat him, because the duel was interrupted.


I was actually expecting Voldemort to beat Albus since that would set Harry up to conquer a formidable enemy this could have happened in HBP but tbh by feats he could only pressure Dumbledore and I don't see why Fawkes is a cheap cop out it's no different from Voldemort having Horcruxes.

Voldemort may or may not have but by feats he's less impressive than Grindelwald just by hype alone.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 12, 2020)

Phenomenon said:


> I was actually expecting Voldemort to beat Albus since that would set Harry up to conquer a formidable enemy this could have happened in HBP but tbh by feats he could only pressure Dumbledore and I don't see why Fawkes is a cheap cop out it's no different from Voldemort having Horcruxes.
> 
> Voldemort may or may not have but by feats he's less impressive than Grindelwald just by hype alone.


What ? It is a living creature with mind and emotions of it's own completely independent in both origin and end from Dumbledore. Horucrux is literally piece of Voldemorts soul.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 13, 2020)

Phenomenon said:


> I was actually expecting Voldemort to beat Albus since that would set Harry up to conquer a formidable enemy this could have happened in HBP but tbh by feats he could only pressure Dumbledore and I don't see why Fawkes is a cheap cop out it's no different from Voldemort having Horcruxes.
> 
> Voldemort may or may not have but by feats he's less impressive than Grindelwald just by hype alone.



But Dumbledore had the super wand that was supposed to make him invincible, he never fought Voldemort as an equal.


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## Phenomenon (Oct 13, 2020)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> But Dumbledore had the super wand that was supposed to make him invincible, he never fought Voldemort as an equal.


I don't think the Elder Wand is supposed to make you invincible it's an outlier, More powerful yes but if that was the case why did Dumbledore beat Gellert?


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## J★J♥ (Oct 13, 2020)

Phenomenon said:


> I don't think the Elder Wand is supposed to make you invincible it's an outlier, More powerful yes but if that was the case why did Dumbledore beat Gellert?


It's not a small boost of power. Harry was able to repair his broken wand something that was impossible even for ollivander and especially Harry.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 13, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> It's not a small boost of power. Harry was able to repair his broken wand something that was impossible even for ollivander and especially Harry.


right and that's cool but that doesn't make it an invinci-wand - it just gives you a few options when it comes to spells. People lost with the elder wand so that other people could get the damn thing, that's part of it's lore.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 13, 2020)

AgentAAA said:


> right and that's cool but that doesn't make it an invinci-wand - it just gives you a few options when it comes to spells. People lost with the elder wand so that other people could get the damn thing, that's part of it's lore.


People got assasinated when they had ew. We don't know what happened between Grindelwald and Dumby, but its implied that they did not even fight  also I have Moody above Grindelwand without EW.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 13, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> People got assasinated when they had ew. We don't know what happened between Grindelwald and Dumby, but its implied that they did not even fight  also I have Moody above Grindelwand without EW.



By who? Rita skeeter? I'd like a quote or two that's not from an incredibly biased source.

Also, don't think Moody has feats that let him last 10 seconds with old dumbledore, let alone young dumbledore.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 13, 2020)

AgentAAA said:


> By who? Rita skeeter? I'd like a quote or two that's not from an incredibly biased source.
> 
> Also, don't think Moody has feats that let him last 10 seconds with old dumbledore, let alone young dumbledore.


By Bathilda Bagshot. I view filling up half of Azkaban with deatheaters as a feat and it's even more impressive when you consider that other half was send there for lolz by incompetent morons.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 13, 2020)

Dumbledore did fought and defeat elder wand Grindelwald, that's what makes Voldemort stronger than Gellert.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 13, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> By Bathilda Bagshot. I view filling up half of Azkaban with deatheaters as a feat and it's even more impressive when you consider that other half was send there for lolz by incompetent morons.



It's hype, but we don't really know how he did it or how long it took. Death eaters are incredibly inconsistent combatants regardless - We have 5th year students taking them out in the 5th book despite lacking much proper combat experience. Might say a decent amount about Harry's teaching skills, mind, but the accolade's a bit scuffed up by the fact his first actual appearance is when he's rescued from his kidnapper. Barty Crouch Jr. don't got that much going for him.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 13, 2020)

Moody has lost pretty much every fight he got involved in on the books because he is old and covered in wounds.



Gellert was unbeatable for everyone aside from Dumbledore.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 13, 2020)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Dumbledore did fought and defeat elder wand Grindelwald, that's what makes Voldemort stronger than Gellert.



Lol no it doesn't when Tom got fodderized every time he got near a serious Dumbledore


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 13, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Lol no it doesn't when Tom got fodderized every time he got near a serious Dumbledore



He was losing but Dumbledore wasn't close to winning either, that's with the elder wand which made Dumbledore far stronger than when he fought Gellert.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 14, 2020)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> He was losing but Dumbledore wasn't close to winning either, that's with the elder wand which made Dumbledore far stronger than when he fought Gellert.



"Wasn't close to winning" is what beating the fuck out of Tom minus one lucky shot? While also pinning his hoe down and warning the ministry and protecting Potter is called now?

You continue to be generous to defend in universe hype and statements that aren't supported by feats.


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 14, 2020)

Moody filling Azkaban tells me more about how trash the nameless DEs are than how stronk Moody is tbh 

Cant really use that feat to pimp him anywhere impressive 

Shit like that all over fiction, like shit versions of Naruto characters beating the piss out of 100s of Chunin or Jonin fodders at the same time


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## J★J♥ (Oct 14, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Moody filling Azkaban tells me more about how trash the nameless DEs are than how stronk Moody is tbh
> 
> Cant really use that feat to pimp him anywhere impressive
> 
> Shit like that all over fiction, like shit versions of Naruto characters beating the piss out of 100s of Chunin or Jonin fodders at the same time


And Voldemort is a Dark lord because he was braking into random houses and killing civilian wizards with un pure blood


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 14, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Moody filling Azkaban tells me more about how trash the nameless DEs are than how stronk Moody is tbh
> 
> Cant really use that feat to pimp him anywhere impressive
> 
> Shit like that all over fiction, like shit versions of Naruto characters beating the piss out of 100s of Chunin or Jonin fodders at the same time




The only thing filling half the prisons of Azkaban proves is that Allister can beat the absolute fuck out of a bunch of larping soccer dads who were routinely knocked their asses by a bunch of teenagers throughout the books.

This proves to me that he's the only magical cop who y'know..does what you'd expect a cop to do with any degree of skill.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 14, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> And Voldemort is a Dark lord because he was braking into random houses and killing civilian wizards with un pure blood



I don't think people source Voldemort's powers based off of him breaking into random houses and killing people ever in a thread actually. He's actually done things to earn his spot. Moody hasn't.

Whens the last time you saw someone have to resort to "well voldemort killed a lot of wizards in their homes" to prove his capabilities?


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## J★J♥ (Oct 14, 2020)

AgentAAA said:


> I don't think people source Voldemort's powers based off of him breaking into random houses and killing people ever in a thread actually. He's actually done things to earn his spot. Moody hasn't.
> 
> Whens the last time you saw someone have to resort to "well voldemort killed a lot of wizards in their homes" to prove his capabilities?


And what else did he do other than fail to kill a teenager repeatadly and run away from Dumbledoor ? Well i guess he did kill distracted Moody and thats all.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 14, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> And what else did he do other than fail to kill a teenager repeatadly and run away from Dumbledoor ? Well i guess he did kill distracted Moody and thats all.



The entire trap dungeon, dueling mcgonagall, Shacklebolt, and Kingsley at the same time. Badly losing to but still lasting longer than 3 seconds against dumbledore which is a lot better than an entire ministry team could do, mainly.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 14, 2020)

AgentAAA said:


> The entire trap dungeon, dueling mcgonagall, Shacklebolt, and Kingsley at the same time. Badly losing to but still lasting longer than 3 seconds against dumbledore which is a lot better than an entire ministry team could do, mainly.


Which are all horrible feats because Rowling is not that good when it comes to showing off their power.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 14, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> Which are all horrible feats because Rowling is not that good when it comes to showing off their power.


Nah, Mcgonagall's duel with snape solidly points her as above the average characters, but if we wanna go into that:
Harry's above a lot of average death eaters in duelling skill:

Snape casually destroys harry in a duel while running away.
Mcgonagall is capable of having an even duel with Snape, and as seems to be the case for most of the top level wizards, the duel is far past just 'throwing stupefy and avada kedavra'.

Kingsley is a Top Auror and has been shown to be a pretty good dueller multiple times. 

Slughorn... is an old experienced man but honestly it's more a feat for him that he's considered on that tier and not instantly dying, admittedly. he has the credentials for being on their level but this is his actual duelling feat. He's probably on par with Kingsley

Even then, when did moody duel 3 wizards at once? 
The most Moody's record proves is he beat some fodders 1 on 1 after careful investigation, and we don't know if it was with a team helping at all or not. It's an incredibly good feat for his policework and work ethic, but it's an average feat for his duelling skill. It sounds impressive but is air. It's not proven on-screen.

It's not even a feat, really.

Moody's feats are losing and losing again, mostly.

I'd argue Moody's hype does mean young moody has potential for really good feats, and he has enough going for him to be solidly in the mid-tier in the 'skilled auror' category, but I think just due to age he's probably behind shacklebolt, and he's probably behind sirius, too, given the man gave a good fight to his cousin bellatrix


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 14, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> And what else did he do other than fail to kill a teenager repeatadly and run away from Dumbledoor ? Well i guess he did kill distracted Moody and thats all.



Rediscovered lost and obscure magic, then not only reversed engineered the spells but drastically improved upon them? Built and crafted defensive spells and curses, again building on the genius of others and enhancing them to levels even Dumbledore was impressed by (And before Fourth Dimension gets a hard on..no you don't get to scale research feats to use them as evidence of combat prowess). Being able to mind rape people without a spell? As a child no less? Something no other character has done? Amassing enough followers to start a war, a war that unlike Grendewald's damaged society enough that they were still dealing with the aftermath two generations later?

Voldemort may not be as great a duelist as Grendewlad or Dumbledore but if the dude got some medication early and got sorted into Ravenclaw he'd probably be considered the greatest researcher and spell master in the world and one of the greatest in history.

He probably would also have the DADA post he wanted so desperately and probably be considered a better spell crafter than Dumbledore.

The dude was basically a super powered autistic savant

He was Rainman with the ability to forcefully eject your soul from your body 



AgentAAA said:


> The entire trap dungeon, dueling mcgonagall, Shacklebolt, and Kingsley at the same time. Badly losing to but still lasting longer than 3 seconds against dumbledore which is a lot better than an entire ministry team could do, mainly.



It's worth noting, during the duel with those three, generic spells of his were knocking them around with the energy bleed off alone..He's got that retard strength basically.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 14, 2020)

AgentAAA said:


> Nah, Mcgonagall's duel with snape solidly points her as above the average characters, but if we wanna go into that:
> Harry's above a lot of average death eaters in duelling skill:
> 
> Snape casually destroys harry in a duel while running away.
> ...


Kingsley was not top auror. Moody was as was blatantly said and demonstrated when they predicted that voldemort would go after strongest guardian and he went after Moody as was predicted.
Snape was holding back against Mcgonagall and she got wrecked by some plebs who just pointed wands at her and hit her without her even drawing wand. (when hagrid was fired)
Slughorn spend previous year by being a couch and he was extremely old.

IDK what you are trying to do here Moody was clearly intended to be a beast. It was even said that Order of Phoenix suffered a massive loss with his death


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 14, 2020)

Shackelbolt was the guy they trusted to protect the PM 

He was top secret service dude, even in a society as retarded as the ones in the wizarding world, you don't put a scrub at that post. Which he does back up


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## J★J♥ (Oct 14, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Shackelbolt was the guy they trusted to protect the PM
> 
> He was top secret service dude, even in a society as retarded as the ones in the wizarding world, you don't put a scrub at that post. Which he does back up


And yet Moody was the "greatest auror of all time"


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 14, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> And yet Moody was the "greatest auror of all time"



Being the greatest  cop means being really good at investigating criminals, finding evidence, documenting that evidence and presenting it in a way to guarantee a prosecutors win. It also means being better trained than the average dude...Like it or not most Death Eaters were inbred, Lazy, the wrong kinda old money, semi retarded due to inbreeding and a bunch of larpers.

He beat the absolute shit out of them..No one fucked up super powered soccer dads like Moody..Before he lost half his face an arm and a leg IIRC.

No one doubts that...That doesn't necessarily mean Kingsley was an inferior duelist, just an inferior cop.

Stop applying Shounen logic to urban fantasy 

Edit- Voldemort was the greater Darklord because he was gigantic dweeb who was really good at back engineering and modding out spells...He did shit, in the Research and development area no one else did and applied it in ways no one else could dream of.

That doesn't make him the greatest duelist alive by default...Nor should it.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 14, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Being the greatest  cop means being really good at investigating criminals, finding evidence, documenting that evidence and presenting it in a way to guarantee a prosecutors win. It also means being better trained than the average dude...Like it or not most Death Eaters were inbred, Lazy, the wrong kinda old money, semi retarded due to inbreeding and a bunch of larpers.
> 
> He beat the absolute shit out of them..No one fuck up super powered soccer dads like Moody..Before he lost half his face an arm and a leg IIRC.
> 
> ...


Except that's not what aurors are. They are black ops not detectives.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 14, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> Kingsley was not top auror. Moody was as was blatantly said and demonstrated when they predicted that voldemort would go after strongest guardian and he went after Moody as was predicted.
> Snape was holding back against Mcgonagall and she got wrecked by some plebs who just pointed wands at her and hit her without her even drawing wand. (when hagrid was fired)
> Slughorn spend previous year by being a couch and he was extremely old.
> 
> IDK what you are trying to do here Moody was clearly intended to be a beast. It was even said that Order of Phoenix suffered a massive loss with his death



"clearly intended"
Well shit if we go off of 'clearly intended' why do we even go off concrete feats at all? Let's go back to discussing which craters _look_ more impressive.

Kingsley is *a* top auror, not *the* top auror. If we wanna get technical Scrimgeour is top auror but in terms of duelling kingsley's been a solid high-tier.

Voldy's decision making is based on Moody's reputation and history most likely, not to mention he's still the most canny boy. in terms of what he had to offer as protection, he had advantages other than duelling skills - since from a cop perspective he's the most experienced and with the best instincts. he also probably duelled a lot better when he had a full set of everything.

"Snape was holding back against mcgonagall" -Citation needed, if he wanted to keep his double agent shit going he's not going to get away with not giving his all against a woman who's known him for decades and then not getting called on it.

"hit her without  her drawing wand."

-yeah, she got caught off-guard. You know wand-drawing speed's not a feat in this, right? it's not a shounen. Mcgonagall can make some awesome shit happen with that wand, but she's not speedblitzing because it's not a shounen. your abilities in a duel don't mean shit to your at-best peak human abilities otherwise in harry potter. it's just what you can do with magic that really changes. 

"Slughorn spend previous year by being a couch"
-Yeah, it's more the fact he's compared to the other two that gives him any feats at all.  Being considered an equal partner in the duel is his feat lol.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 14, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> Except that's not what aurors are. They are black ops not detectives.


-no. they're police. They do policework. they don't  fit neatly into any box but hit wizards are closer than aurors are to black ops.


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## Cichy (Oct 14, 2020)

The disrespect Moody gets in this threat is disgusting. 

The dude was considered a legend, one of the best aurors of all time. He defeated and captured Karkaroff (who was said to be dark arts master and a director of a major magic school). Voldemort went after him, before Kingslay or Lupin, because he considered him the biggest threat in that team, something that was directly stated in the book.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 14, 2020)

Cichy said:


> The disrespect Moody gets in this threat is disgusting.
> 
> The dude was considered a legend, one of the best aurors of all time. He defeated and captured Karkaroff (who was said to be dark arts master and a director of a major magic school). Voldemort went after him, before Kingslay or Lupin, because he considered him the biggest threat in that team, something that was directly stated in the book.


That's actually a pretty good feat, the only reason I'm not giving it to current moody is age and damage tbh. I'd give him a fight against young gellert if it was young moody, but he's not at that level anymore.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 14, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> "Wasn't close to winning" is what beating the fuck out of Tom minus one lucky shot? While also pinning his hoe down and warning the ministry and protecting Potter is called now?
> 
> You continue to be generous to defend in universe hype and statements that aren't supported by feats.



He didn't beat the fuck out of Tom that's the point, Dumbledore was unable to trap or stun Voldemort and would have died if it wasn't for Fawkes because he had to choose between stopping the snake and blocking AK, which is difficult because that seems to ignore the shield spell, he didn't overpower him either until he used the water balloon thing which Voldemort just teleported out.

All this with the Elder wand, without that we don't know how he compares to Voldemort, Gellert was weak enough to lose despite having that.

Feats are irrelevant if we are told a character is stronger than another by the author.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 14, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> Except that's not what aurors are. They are black ops not detectives.



They're both though.

A mix of the NYPD and the MIB.



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> He didn't beat the fuck out of Tom that's the point.



Yeah you're just flat out wrong.

Period.

Fawkes ate a shot for Albus which was a lucky shot on Tom's part, that whole fight was Tom being dismissed, while Albus was busy doing nine other things.




lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Feats are irrelevant if we are told a character is stronger than another by the author.



AAHAHAHAHAHAHAH...No

Not at all..that's canon in universe, it means nothing in vs debates where consistent feats trump everything else.

That has literally been the case since this hobby got started in the 1990's.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 14, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Yeah you're just flat out wrong.
> 
> Period.
> 
> Fawkes ate a shot for Albus which was a lucky shot on Tom's part, that whole fight was Tom being dismissed, while Albus was busy doing nine other things.



It wasn't a lucky shot, Albus tried to bind him with fire strings but Voldemort made them into a snake, then teleported and fired an AK in coordination with the snake attack.

Dumbledore tried to tie him up because he couldn't hit Tom with energy beams.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> AAHAHAHAHAHAHAH...No
> 
> Not at all..that's canon in universe, it means nothing in vs debates where consistent feats trump everything else.
> 
> That has literally been the case since this hobby got started in the 1990's.



Powerscalling means feats apply to the stronger character so it's irrelevant.

The elder wand makes average people near invincible, Gellert even with that lost to Albus, Dumbledore even with that power up couldn't defeat Tom.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 14, 2020)

Cichy said:


> The disrespect Moody gets in this threat is disgusting.
> 
> The dude was considered a legend, one of the best aurors of all time. He defeated and captured Karkaroff (who was said to be dark arts master and a director of a major magic school). Voldemort went after him, before Kingslay or Lupin, because he considered him the biggest threat in that team, something that was directly stated in the book.



Wyatt Earp was one of the greatest Lawmen in the west, he'd still get the absolute shit kicked out of him by your average member of a SWAT team..Even though he probably would tower above them in every other area.

And relevant to Moody the one eyed drunk _certainly _in achievements.



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> It wasn't a lucky shot, Albus tried to bind him with fire strings but Voldemort made them into a snake, then teleported and fired an AK in coordination with the snake attack.



Exactly, Tom got his ass boxed in...was able to counter and in a fit of desperation tried to kill a guy while he was busy doing ten other things.




lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> I
> Dumbledore tried to tied him up because he couldn't hit Tom with energy beams.



"couldn't" Yet he had Tom on his ass every twenty seconds.





lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Powerscalling means feats apply to the stronger character so it's irrelevant.



This isn't a Shounen you absolute spud 

You don't get to powerscale off shit a character hasn't done simply because other characters, weaker than him _who specialized in different areas do things.
_
Stop treating this shit like it's Naruto...its a fucking urban fantasy and you're going to have to analyze it differently.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 14, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Exactly, Tom got his ass boxed in...was able to counter and in a fit of desperation tried to kill a guy while he was busy doing ten other things.



Not really, he was completely free and unharmed in the end and Albus had the statues doing most other things, is just that everything he tried got deflected or countered.

Voldemort also realized he couldn't win so he went for Harry.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> This isn't a Shounen you absolute spud
> 
> You don't get to powerscale off shit a character hasn't done simply because other characters, weaker than him _who specialized in different areas do different things.
> _
> Stop treating this shit like it's Naruto...its a fucking urban fantasy and you're going to have to analyze it differently.



This is comparing dueling proficiency, Gellert lost to a less powerfull and experienced Dumbledore than the one Voldemort fought to a near stalemate.

If it was different and Tom had the Elder wand, he probably would have killed Albus.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 14, 2020)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Voldemort also realized he couldn't win so he went for Harry.


No. He possessed Harry because Dumbledore brought up death and told him that it's not a worst thing that can happen to someone. Voldemort is terrified of dying remember ? he got triggered.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 14, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> No. He possessed Harry because Dumbledore brought up death and told him that it's not a worst thing that can happen to someone. Voldemort is terrified of dying remember ? he got triggered.



Maybe but also he did that because he couldn't harm Dumbledore and the Aurors where on their way.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 14, 2020)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Maybe but also he did that because he couldn't harm Dumbledore and the Aurors where on their way.


No he literally only did that because Dumbledore brought up death that was crystal clear. He was even taunting Dumbledore to kill them both knowing that he would not.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 14, 2020)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Not really, he was completely free and unharmed in the end and Albus had the statues doing most other things, is just that everything he tried got deflected or countered.
> 
> Voldemort also realized he couldn't win so he went for Harry.



you are autistically lying about this.





lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> This is comparing dueling proficiency, Gellert lost to a less powerfull and experienced Dumbledore than the one Voldemort fought to a near stalemate.
> 
> If it was different and Tom had the Elder wand, he probably would have killed Albus.



Gellert pushed Dumbledore so hard they fought for hours...tom shit talked him and got routed.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Deer Lord (Oct 15, 2020)

Voldemort and Grindelwald are basically H.P's Sidious and Valkorion at this point


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 15, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> you are autistically lying about this.



Autistic is believing a shitstain like Gellert is better than Voldemort when he is stated as a lesser treat and lost against Dumbledore despite having the elder wand power up.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Gellert pushed Dumbledore so hard they fought for hours...tom shit talked him and got routed.



With the Elder wand, without that he would have been spanked by a much, much weaker Albus than the one Voldemort fough to a near stalemate.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 15, 2020)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Autistic is believing a shitstain like Gellert is better than Voldemort when he is stated as a lesser treat and lost against Dumbledore despite having the elder wand power up.




That's nice dear, meanwhile Tommy got his shit kicked in by a distracted Dumbledore and Dumbledore spent four years hiding from his ex boyfriend because he wasn't sure if he'd win or not  and the subsequent fight was a fight for their lives.





lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> With the Elder wand, without that he would have been spanked by a much, much weaker Albus than the one Voldemort fough to a near stalemate.



Your conjecture, not supported by the feats is as worthless as Rowling's retcons to appease a fandom as unreasonable as hers.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 16, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> That's nice dear, meanwhile Tommy got his shit kicked in by a distracted Dumbledore and Dumbledore spent four years hiding from his ex boyfriend because he wasn't sure if he'd win or not and the subsequent fight was a fight for their lives.



No, Dumbledore wasn't hiding from Grindelwald, he didn't fought him because he was gay and had feelings for Gellert and because they promised to never fight each other and he needed to recover the pendant first in order to undo that, also because he feared finding out who of them killed his sister.

Dumbledore wanted to defeat Voldemort so much that he laments not dealing with him when he met him as a kid.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Your conjecture, not supported by the feats is as worthless as Rowling's retcons to appease a fandom as unreasonable as hers.



The wand allowed Harry, a fairly mediocre guy, to repair his wand with a basic spell despite fixing wands being considered impossible in universe

Actually all of the best feats from Gellert in the movie are done with the elder wand, the best he did without it is fight a group of aurors before being arrested.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 16, 2020)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> No, Dumbledore wasn't hiding from Grindelwald, he didn't fought him because he was gay and had feelings for Gellert and because they promised to never fight each other and he needed to recover the pendant first in order to undo that, also because he feared finding out who of them killed his sister.






Albus Dumbledore said:


> "I knew that we were evenly matched, perhaps that I was a shade more skilful. It was the truth I feared... I dreaded beyond all things the knowledge that it had been I who brought about her death, not merely through my arrogance and stupidity, but that I actually struck the blow that snuffed out her life. I think he knew it, I think he knew what frightened me. I delayed meeting him until, finally, it would have been too shameful to resist any longer. People were dying and he seemed unstoppable, and I had to do what I could."



"Perhaps, at most I was a shade more skillful" then he makes up some post hoc justification about guilt..when its pretty clear the son of a bitch knew a contest between them might not amount to anything except Gellert gets a six hour work out and maybe they both die.;




lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Dumbledore wanted to defeat Voldemort so much that he laments not dealing with him when he met him as a kid.



And he proceeds to beat him like a red headed step  child 





lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> The wand allowed Harry, a fairly mediocre guy, to repair his wand with a basic spell despite fixing wands being considered impossible in universe



LOL mediocre, what does that say about Death Eaters that a mediocre duelist can shitkick 90% of them?



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Actually all of the best feats from Gellert in the movie are done with the elder wand, the best he did without it is fight a group of aurors before being arrested.



An inferior number of Aurors utterly routed the Death Eaters and sent Tommy boy fleeing for his life after he realized Albus wasn't even really challenging him but delaying him...Man film Grendelwald sucks so much..casually no selling a force that Tommy boy would have been grounded into marmalade by?

Man it just sucks to be you doesn't it? When all you can do is stone wall opponents?

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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 17, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> LOL mediocre, what does that say about Death Eaters that a mediocre duelist can shitkick 90% of them?



That they are mediocre, aside from Dolohov, Bellatrix and Snape.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> An inferior number of Aurors utterly routed the Death Eaters and sent Tommy boy fleeing for his life after he realized Albus wasn't even really challenging him but delaying him...Man film Grendelwald sucks so much..casually no selling a force that Tommy boy would have been grounded into marmalade by?
> 
> Man it just sucks to be you doesn't it? When all you can do is stone wall opponents?



Voldemort didn't want to fight Dumbledore and all the aurors, without Albus most aurors didn't even had the guts to fight Tom.

Actually when Dumbledore gets to the ministry, he with one move captures nearly all DE there except Bellatrix who deflected his attack and reached the atrium, where Dumbledore failed to defeat Voldemort.

Gellert simply when down to a few aurors and a bird.


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## Venice (Oct 17, 2020)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> .
> 
> Gellert simply when down to a few aurors and a bird.




Only thing I wanna address here is in the screenplay Grindelwald was stated to be winning against that Auror group and the film also made it clear I feel. If he weren't blindsided by Newt he would have won. There were also a good number of Aurors there and they were shown to be very powerful considering they had the firepower to blast apart Credence. I also want to point out Grindelwald wasn't using the Elder Wand nor his original wand but Percival Graves and we know wands that aren't yours inhibits you. 


In the beginning of the film we also see 7 Aurors presumably with their magical barriers up completely vaporized in one blast by Gellert.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 17, 2020)

Venice said:


> Only thing I wanna address here is in the screenplay Grindelwald was stated to be winning against that Auror group and the film also made it clear I feel. If he weren't blindsided by Newt he would have won. There were also a good number of Aurors there and they were shown to be very powerful considering they had the firepower to blast apart Credence. I also want to point out Grindelwald wasn't using the Elder Wand nor his original wand but Percival Graves and we know wands that aren't yours inhibits you.
> 
> 
> In the beginning of the film we also see 7 Aurors presumably with their magical barriers up completely vaporized in one blast by Gellert.



Right but could you imagine Newt and those aurors arresting Voldemort, who even Albus with the Elder wand couldn't submit. The opening scene could have been done with the elder wand since he stole that from Gregorovitch in the early 20's.


Kingley for instance defeated two DE at once, he lost after holding his own for a while against Bellatrix, who then defeated four Scavengers at once with ease and had the upper hand against Ginny, Luna and Hermione.

McGonagall defeated the two Carrows at the same time, had hype of being stronger than four aurors at once and was capable of challenging Snape.

Voldemort oneshoted the two of them and Slughorn when he got serious after Bellatrix was killed, despite not being able to harm them directly thanks to Harry's love protection and his wand reveling against him because he didn't win it in a duel.

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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 17, 2020)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Gellert simply when down to a few aurors and a bird.



If by a few aurors, you mean all of them and by went down you mean "casually rebuffed all their attacks and began killing them with their own spells, while not really paying attention, cutting loose or using more than a generic shield charm, only to get caught off guard by a weirdo no one could account for and his dopey ass girlfriend" then sure.

Meanwhile, Tommy boy even in the film where it was a closer fight was howling from the effort while Albus was just bulldozing his ass and bailed before half the number of guys (Who'd just lost their heaviest hitter no less) that Gellert stomped on lazily showed up...Because his ass would have been grass.

You can pretend this didn't happen all you want..it doesn't alter reality.

TFW you hate Harry Potter but apparently have a better grasp of it then some of its fans


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 17, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> If by a few aurors, you mean all of them and by went down you mean "casually rebuffed all their attacks and began killing them with their own spells, while not really paying attention, cutting loose or using more than a generic shield charm, only to get caught off guard by a weirdo no one could account for and his dopey ass girlfriend" then sure.
> 
> Meanwhile, Tommy boy even in the film where it was a closer fight was howling from the effort while Albus was just bulldozing his ass and bailed before half the number of guys (Who'd just lost their heaviest hitter no less) that Gellert stomped on lazily showed up...Because his ass would have been grass.
> 
> ...



He bailed because he couldn't fight Dumbledore and the aurors at the same time, the aurors alone would have done nothing,.

Gellert was focused on fighting the 10 aurors and that's why he got caugh upo by Newt's bird, that would never happen to Voldemort who Albus himself couldn't arrest.

Also destroying Hogwartz giant shield with one attack when hundreds of DE attacking it at once did nothing shows the difference in strenght between randoms and Tom, and that was done with no elder wand needed.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 17, 2020)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> He bailed because he couldn't fight Dumbledore and the aurors at the same time, the aurors alone would have done nothing,.



But you just said he was beating Dumbledore, why would ten times zero plus zero mean anything? Get the bullshit you spew straight.




lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Gellert was focused on fighting the 10 aurors and that's why he got caugh upo by Newt's bird, that would never happen to Voldemort who Albus himself couldn't arrest.


LOLfocused...




lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Also destroying Hogwartz giant shield with one attack when hundreds of DE attacking it at once did nothing shows the difference in strenght between randoms and Tom, and that was done with no elder wand needed.



Weakening it with sustained bombardment you mean

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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 17, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> But you just said he was beating Dumbledore, why would ten times zero plus zero mean anything? Get the bullshit you spew straight.



Didn't say he was beating Dumbledore.




The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Weakening it with sustained bombardment you mean



It did nothing and Tom destroyed the whole thing.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 17, 2020)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Didn't say he was beating Dumbledore.



Moving goal posts much?





lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> It did nothing and Tom destroyed the whole thing.



This is the part where you should concede and bow out.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 17, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Moving goal posts much?



I said Dumbledore had the edge but was still unable to defeat or capture Voldemort, haven't moved an inch from that.

Gellert<<<<<Gellert with elder wand<Dumbledore<Voldemort<Dumbledore with the elder wand.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> This is the part where you should concede and bow out.



I mean I'm absolutely right about everything I have said so why would I do that?


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## Phenomenon (Oct 18, 2020)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> I said Dumbledore had the edge but was still unable to defeat or capture Voldemort, haven't moved an inch from that.
> 
> *Gellert<<<<<Gellert with elder wand<Dumbledore<Voldemort<Dumbledore with the elder wand.*
> 
> ...


Based on what?


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 18, 2020)

Phenomenon said:


> Based on what?



Based on the 3 of them fighting each other and the results from those fights.


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## Phenomenon (Oct 18, 2020)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Based on the 3 of them fighting each other and the results from those fights.


But the basis of those results are conflicting to say the least.

Dumbledore fought Grindelwald for hours and the killing intent is shady unless there is proof they were trying to kill each other, They had a friendly relationship after all so there's nothing to say Gellert didn't hold back as much as Albus or anything so Dumbledore probably won for any reason for all we know.

Voldemort fought Dumbledore with the intent to kill him while the latter did not regardless of the failure to capture him he still didn't lose to Voldemort either and had a purpose to be there besides slaying the dark wizard.


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## God (Oct 18, 2020)

Wow you guys are fucking stupid


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 18, 2020)

Phenomenon said:


> But the basis of those results are conflicting to say the least.
> 
> Dumbledore fought Grindelwald for hours and the killing intent is shady unless there is proof they were trying to kill each other, They had a friendly relationship after all so there's nothing to say Gellert didn't hold back as much as Albus or anything so Dumbledore probably won for any reason for all we know.
> 
> Voldemort fought Dumbledore with the intent to kill him while the latter did not regardless of the failure to capture him he still didn't lose to Voldemort either and had a purpose to be there besides slaying the dark wizard.



That's true but Dumbledore himself said he was a shade more skilled than Gellert so up until they make the movie all we know is they fought and Dumbledore barely edged a win.

Against Tom though, Dumbledore had no reason to hold back even if he isn't going for the kill and was more powerful than in 1945 because this time he had the elder wand while Riddle had a normal wand.


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## Phenomenon (Oct 18, 2020)

God said:


> Wow you guys are fucking stupid


Please elaborate


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## God (Oct 18, 2020)

Phenomenon said:


> Please elaborate



Grindelwald had the elder wand and was nearly as powerful as a young dumbledore. The fact that dumbledore was able to defeat him says it all.

As for his fight with Voldemort at the ministry of magic, the only reason he didn’t crush him was because he knew Harry had to be the one to fulfill the prophecy, period.


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## Deer Lord (Oct 18, 2020)

This is just the classic 'character A in the original source material is deemed tye most powerful something. Then later on, much after that statement was made they do a prequel with a lot of power inflation that makes said previous statement shaky'.

Voldemort was clearly intended to be the villian to end all villians in the original series. But then rowling got greedy and power inflated the franchise in fantastic beasts.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 18, 2020)

Deer Lord said:


> This is just the classic 'character A in the original source material is deemed tye most powerful something. Then later on, much after that statement was made they do a prequel with a lot of power inflation that makes said previous statement shaky'.
> 
> Voldemort was clearly intended to be the villian to end all villians in the original series. But then rowling got greedy and power inflated the franchise in fantastic beasts.



But that would just give powerscalling to Voldemort either way, to me Gellert loosing against Dumbledore and then Voldemort being able to hold his own against a much stronger Dumbledore makes things clear.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 18, 2020)

Powerscaling in an urban fantasy setting


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## Cichy (Oct 18, 2020)

So are we forgeting how Dumbledore called Riddle "_the most brilliant student in Hogwarts history_"? Or how Dumbledore was shooked on how much control over his magic Riddle had before he even joined Hogwart? That indicates Riddle's natural talent was in fact superior even to Dumbledore's. Dumbledore of course got his hands on Elder Wand which gave him a further boost, but it gives you an idea of how much of a threat Voldemort was, especially since Gellert was said to be less skilled then Albus. 

Grindelwald wanted to get his hands on resurrection stone in order to create an army of inferi, while Voldemort made a lot of them without the need of the stone, which indicates his knowledge of dark arts was superior (and thats even not including horcruxes). He also created a bunch of stuff that was previously unknown like unsupported flight and was said to be the greatest Legilimens to ever have lived.

On the other hand, one thing that Gellert has over Voldemort is his ability to see the future, but in HP verse divination was never considered super reliable or precise to begin with, so it's hard to say how that would give him an edge.


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## Kanki (Oct 18, 2020)

There's definitely more to the Dumbledore/Grindlewald duel than we're aware of. It may not have even been a clean win tbh, or rather Dumbedore may have had some other prep/knowledge going into it. We'll see in time.

Voldemort is the more powerful wizard when you factor in destructive power, dark magic etc. I give him the edge until we see what Grindlewald is truly capable of though.


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## WorldsStrongest (Oct 19, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> The only thing filling half the prisons of Azkaban proves is that Allister can beat the absolute fuck out of a bunch of larping soccer dads who were routinely knocked their asses by a bunch of teenagers throughout the books.
> 
> This proves to me that he's the only magical cop who y'know..does what you'd expect a cop to do with any degree of skill.


Thats my point exactly 

Beating nameless fodder no matter how much or often isnt indicative of much

He could have also ambushed and/or trapped or poisoned them or whatever

Cant even really apply it to dueling or combat ability with any certainty


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## Esdese (Oct 19, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> While his mother came from a very old line of pure blooded wizards, connected to one of the founders IIRC his father was some rando regular dude albeit very wealthy. Riddle himself was the product of rape by the mother upon the father.


 Just to make sure I understood this right. Riddles mom who was from a strong bloodline which probably meant she was rich herself, and probably didn't lack any suitors, she went ahead and raped a rando rich man that was a muggle?

Like why?


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## Adamant soul (Oct 19, 2020)

Esdese said:


> Just to make sure I understood this right. Riddles mom who was from a strong bloodline which probably meant she was rich herself,



I don't think she was rich actually, far as I know her family wasn't that well off.


> and probably didn't lack any suitors, she went ahead and raped a rando rich man that was a muggle?
> 
> Like why?



Infatuation.

She fell for him hard so she gave him a love potion, which eventually wore off (after she got pregnant) and he ran like fuck.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 19, 2020)

Esdese said:


> Just to make sure I understood this right. Riddles mom who was from a strong bloodline which probably meant she was rich herself, and probably didn't lack any suitors, she went ahead and raped a rando rich man that was a muggle?
> 
> Like why?



Because extensive inbreeding even by pure blood standards, made the Gaunt family severely mentally unstable and retarded...Hell Tom's mom lived in a shack with a brother who had practically gone feral like a fucking wild man and spoke to snakes so much he more or less forgot most of the English he knew.

Her being a deranged stalker..is just par for the course of that family.

Riddle himself was basically only slightly more batfuck than ordinary for that fucked up family.

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## Esdese (Oct 19, 2020)

Adamant soul said:


> I don't think she was rich actually, far as I know her family wasn't that well off.
> 
> 
> Infatuation.
> ...





The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Because extensive inbreeding even by pure blood standards, made the Gaunt family severely mentally unstable and retarded...Hell Tom's mom lived in a shack with a brother who had practically gone feral like a fucking wild man and spoke to snakes so much he more or less forgot most of the English he knew.
> 
> Her being a deranged stalker..is just par for the course of that family.
> 
> Riddle himself was basically only slightly more batfuck than ordinary for that fucked up family.



Thanks guys. I thought she was some super rich posh woman like narcissa and was confused

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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 19, 2020)

Esdese said:


> Thanks guys. I thought she was some super rich posh woman like narcissa and was confused



Naw by the time Riddle was born, they were basically half feral trailer trash.

The family from Deliverance or The Wrong turn essentially.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Esdese (Oct 19, 2020)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Naw by the time Riddle was born, they were basically half feral trailer trash.
> 
> The family from Deliverance or The Wrong turn essentially.


LOOOOOL


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 19, 2020)

Esdese said:


> LOOOOOL



That seems to be how most pureblood families are going..Honestly.

They're just degenerating nonstop..You get exceptions like the Weasely's but they breed like rabbits and are probably pure blood in name only given the sheer size of their family tree and its absence of marriage into more high end "pure" families 

Which is hilarious...the redheaded vermin who too poor to buy Christmas presents are gonna end up walking to work in bling while the fucking I dunno..Malfoy family is gonna have one of it's members look'n like a crackhead on a corner begging for change


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## Cichy (Oct 19, 2020)

Esdese said:


> Just to make sure I understood this right. Riddles mom who was from a strong bloodline which probably meant she was rich herself, and probably didn't lack any suitors, she went ahead and raped a rando rich man that was a muggle?
> 
> Like why?


The mom was described as not very good looking and her family became poor, because they spent money left and right. She was also abused by the family and because of that her magical abilities were not all that great either.

The muggle dude on the other hand was ritch and handsome, so she used a love potion on him. But when the effects of potion weared off he dumped her immidiately.


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## bilbobaggins141 (Jan 2, 2021)

In the books when writing about Voldemort JK Rowling writes:

At the age of one year old, Harry had somehow survived a curse from *the greatest Dark sorcerer of all time*, Lord Voldemort, whose name most witches and wizards still feared to speak (Chamber of Secrets).

Lily and James Potter had not died in a car crash. They had been murdered, murdered by *the most feared Dark wizard for a hundred years*, Lord Voldemort(Prisoner of Azkaban).

Harry had been a year old the night that Voldemort — *the most powerful Dark wizard for a century, a wizard* who had been gaining power steadily for eleven years — arrived at his house and killed his father and mother(Goblet of Fire).

And the Voldemort page on Pottermore:

Formerly known as Tom Marvolo Riddle and commonly referred t as He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. T*he most powerful Dark wizard of all time*


Then Dumbledore says this about Voldemort:

In COS

“Brilliant,” he said softly. “Of course, he was probably *the most brilliant student Hogwarts has ever seen*.” Which Dumbledore was as well.

In OOTP

“I knew that Voldemort’s *knowledge of magic is perhaps more extensive than any wizard alive*. I knew that even my most complex and powerful protective spells and charms were unlikely to be invincible if he ever returned to full power. So not only does this mean that Voldemort knows more magic than just the dark arts it also implies that since Grindelwald was still alive at this point that Voldemort's knowledge of magic was more extensive than his.

In HBP

“Did you know — then?” asked Harry. “Did I know that I had just met *the most dangerous Dark wizard of all time?*” said Dumbledore. “No, I had no idea that he was to grow up to be what he is.

Which in deathly hallows is repeated by Rita Skeeter in her book:

The name of Grindelwald is justly famous: In a list of Most Dangerous Dark Wizards of All Time, he would miss out on the top spot only because *You-Know-Who arrived, a generation later, to steal his crown.*

And while you might be sceptical of Rita's accuracy remember Dumbledore said the same thing.

Even in 2015 (8 years after telling readers of Grindelwald and the duel) she wrote an article on pottermore and described voldemort as *The Greatest Dark Wizard of all Time.*

All these statements would indicate that Voldemort is the most powerful and dangerous dark wizard (a statement which would include Grindelwald ) and even if you ignore the "of all time" statement and went with "the century" statement that would still include Grindelwald.

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## Voyeur (Jan 2, 2021)

bilbobaggins141 said:


> In the books when writing about Voldemort JK Rowling writes:
> 
> At the age of one year old, Harry had somehow survived a curse from *the greatest Dark sorcerer of all time*, Lord Voldemort, whose name most witches and wizards still feared to speak (Chamber of Secrets).
> 
> ...



And you bumped a thread from over two months ago why?

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Uchiha Maddy (Jan 2, 2021)

Voldemort's constant teleportation+avada kedabra spam is pretty lethal and Grindelwald might go down to that in some scenarios. But other than that Grindi simply have better showings. 
 Voldy's hype as the strongest dark wizard in the og books is same as Hiruzen being hyped as the strongest kage in part 1. The authors just chose to add more into the lore. 
Voldy with EW would probably be > Grindi , but sadly he never actually owned it. 
So it's  -Dumbo w or w/o EW > Grindi w EW > Voldy w/o EW


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## bilbobaggins141 (Jan 2, 2021)

As for believing Grindelwald is a better duelist based on how supposedly well he did against a young Dumbledore:

well for starters the idea that Grindelwald lasted 3 or any amount of hours against dumbledore is a misconception. It was made up years ago on the wiki and wasn't removed until a few years ago but people still seem to believe this to be true. Nothing in canon ever refers to the length of the duel.

And to believing Dumbledore descimated voldemort in their duel:

A long thin flame flew from the tip; it wrapped itself around Voldemort, shield and all. *For a moment*, it seemed Dumbledore had won, but then the fiery rope became a serpent, which relinquished its hold upon Voldemort at once and turned, hissing furiously, to face Dumbledore.

*For a few seconds *Voldemort was visible only as a dark, rippling, faceless figure, shimmering and indistinct upon the plinth, clearly struggling to throw off the suffocating mass — Then he was gone, and the water fell with a crash back into its pool, slopping wildly over the sides, drenching the polished floor.

So Dumbledore's best acomplishments in the duel only lasted a moment and a few seconds. The witch and wizard statue pinned down Bellatrix and Harry so they couldn't distract the duelists.

Also there's no real evidence the Dumbledore who fought Grindelwald was stronger than the one who fought Voldemort. Magic doesn't appear to decline with age and Rowling has never really specified how long her characters can live for. The trolley witch has been doing her job for over 190 years, Armando Dippet was around 355 when he died, Eloise Mintumble suffered a time travel accident that caused her body to age 5 centuries and still survived long enough to be taken to st mungo, so we can't be sure young dumbledore (without elder wand) is better than the old version, personally my money is on the old one.

Even if the FB movies are showing Grindelwald performing magic that looks more powerful than what Voldemort did in the books or movies that doesn't mean he isn't capable of the same level of magic or beyond it. Only Rowling knows the full extent of her characters abilities and the extent of magic in her world, so unless she says otherwise I still think the statements should still be considered accurate.


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## Voyeur (Jan 2, 2021)

@Masterblack06 @MusubiKazesaru 
Can we get a lock? This ningen necro'ed an ancient thread.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 2, 2021)

bilbobaggins141 said:


> Only Rowling knows the full extent of her characters abilities and the extent of magic in her world, so unless she says otherwise I still think the statements should still be considered accurate.


She’s just north of Kishimoto when it comes to word of god power statements

Among the worst being relativistic Accio and her justification for why it’s not used on organics being a bizarre form of circular reasoning that both acknowledges and ignores Newton’s laws and conservation of energy. If it’s dangerous to move at those speeds, it’s also dangerous to catch or be struck by objects summoned at those speeds.

Don’t care about the thread itself, but her WoG on matters isn’t above criticism and isn’t infallible on any matter. If she contradicts herself, you need to parse apart the contradiction to determine what’s usable.


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## Cichy (Jan 2, 2021)

Uchiha Maddy said:


> But other than that Grindi simply have better showings.


Does he tho?
Grindelwald is more flashy, but I'm not really sure if he's a more effective duelist. 
People make fun of Avada Kedavra, but seeing how there's almost no way to block it and how efficient it is, spaming it makes perfect sense. 
Voldemort also shown the ability to block Albus' spells that were enhanced by EW and he was competing with his old master pretty well. Voldemort also has a feat of dueling three top tier wizards at the same time (McGonnagall, Kingsley and Slughorn) and wining.

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## bilbobaggins141 (Jan 2, 2021)

Voyeur said:


> @Masterblack06 @MusubiKazesaru
> Can we get a lock? This ningen necro'ed an ancient thread.


Should I have started a brand new thread to discuss the same exact subject?


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## bilbobaggins141 (Jan 2, 2021)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> She’s just north of Kishimoto when it comes to word of god power statements
> 
> Among the worst being relativistic Accio and her justification for why it’s not used on organics being a bizarre form of circular reasoning that both acknowledges and ignores Newton’s laws and conservation of energy. If it’s dangerous to move at those speeds, it’s also dangerous to catch or be struck by objects summoned at those speeds.
> 
> Don’t care about the thread itself, but her WoG on matters isn’t above criticism and isn’t infallible on any matter. If she contradicts herself, you need to parse apart the contradiction to determine what’s usable.



Perhaps the summoned item or creature slows down when it reaches the caster e.g the twins and their brooms, though apparently not always  in the case of flitwick when he summoned the owl students parchment in SWM knocking him off his feet, or maybe theirs some innate magic that protects the caster from such occurances, though perhaps st mungo has a few patients who suffered from such an accident.

If Rowling does say or write something that contradicts something previous, fair enough she can change her mind e.g. the conversation with the  Inquisitorial Squad and I can except that, but until she does I think it's fair to say that what she previously said can still be considered canon, and without evidence to say that Grindelwald's fire spell is beyond voldemort's ability to perform I don't see any contradiction to him being the greatest and most powerful dark wizard of all time.


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## Grinningfox (Jan 2, 2021)

Necro threads lol

Still Grindy btw

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Kanki (Jan 2, 2021)

Voldemort is clearly more powerful than Grindlewald but he does also possess more human flaws that can be exploited. There is a chance that it will get retconned in the new films tbh.


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