# Hiruzen vs Pain



## La Moral Support XXV (Jan 25, 2018)

*Location*: Jiraiya Vs Pain
*Distance*: 50m
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Mindset*: IC + To Kill
*Intel*: Hiruzen has full knowledge of Pain’s abilities| Pain has nothing on Hiruzen.
*Restrictions*: None
*Conditions*: Hiruzen has Edo Feats; and is in his prime (lets say his physical stats are slightly above Orochimaru)


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## Maverick04 (Jan 25, 2018)

All ninjutsu is absorbed by preta path so 90% of Hiruzen's arsenal is already gone down the drain..All he's left with is his shuriken Kage bunshin, which is countered by Shinra tensei and so is Enma..Seeing how Tendo neg diff'd three giant toads with a simple ST..CQC and Reaper death seal(which he won't use until the end) is all he's left with..Even with full knowledge Hiruzen doesn't have the reflexes and speed of a sage Naruto in order to keep up with the paths in close combat..Moreover he has nothing to deal with the Animal path summons as well.
Pain low diffs


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## Buuhan (Jan 25, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> All ninjutsu is absorbed by preta path so 90% of Hiruzen's arsenal is already gone down the drain..All he's left with is his shuriken Kage bunshin, which is countered by Shinra tensei and so is Enma..Seeing how Tendo neg diff'd three giant toads with a simple ST..CQC and Reaper death seal(which he won't use until the end) is all he's left with..Even with full knowledge Hiruzen doesn't have the reflexes and speed of a sage Naruto in order to keep up with the paths in close combat..Moreover he has nothing to deal with the Animal path summons as well.
> Pain low diffs


This is Hiruzen we're talking about. I have no doubt he will be able to deduce his opponents abilities and react accordingly(he already has knowledge). He did this with Obitos truth seeking orbs while having no knowledge on them. Enma is also a great counter to preta path. The location is also important as it is the hidden rain village. Pain cannot use his more massive jutsus here. It is also a maze work of pipes. If Jiraiya would use this to his advantage i don't see why Hiruzen could not a well. Also im not trying to make bad blood or anything, but i went in extensively in Sannin vs Pain on why the ST used on the toads was by no means simple nor is it effective when the other paths are present. Deva can't spam landscape changing ST without drawing power away from the other paths; something Hiruzen would take advantage of. That point is null anyways since the jutsu can't be used in this scenario unless the op clarifies whether Pain is unconcerned for the village.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Maverick04 (Jan 25, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> He did this with Obitos truth seeking orbs while having no knowledge on them


I think he got one shotted by Obito or am I missing something?



Buuhan said:


> Enma is also a great counter to preta path


How is that?? All eyes are linked..How can he attack him when he can pretty much dodge all attacks??Naruto had to resort to an attack invisible to the naked eye.



Buuhan said:


> Pain cannot use his more massive jutsus here.


Im not even talking about CST or CT..He doesn't need them here.



Buuhan said:


> If Jiraiya would use this to his advantage i don't see why Hiruzen could not a well.


Coz Jiraiya's feats aren't transferable to Hiruzen..It's not like both have the same intellect..You can make assumptions about him using the same approach but Jiraiya did have support from two sage toads



Buuhan said:


> but i went in extensively in Sannin vs Pain on why the ST used on the toads was by no means simple nor is it effective when the other paths are present


Ok..Then don't count that..Shinra tensei still neg'd a rasenshuriken or was that not a simple one either.

Its not like every Shinra tensei is gonna shatter the village..Btw didn't he use ST tensei to kill Hanzo with the other paths around..Coz that's what it looked like to me


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 25, 2018)

Imopink1 said:


> and is in his prime


PS one shots
Hiruzen low diffs

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Buuhan (Jan 25, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> I think he got one shotted by Obito or am I missing something?
> 
> 
> How is that?? All eyes are linked..How can he attack him when he can pretty much dodge all attacks??Naruto had to resort to an attack non visible to the naked eye.
> ...


He deduced the makeup of the truth seeking orbs; thats the significance of my point. I don't see why his feats with obito combat wise have anything to do with my statement on him *gaining knowledge of an ability he had never seen before. *It doesn't matter if Jiraiya and Hiruzen don't have the same intellect. Through the Obito feat alone we can deduce that he thinks very well on his feet, even against much more powerful opponents. The gap here given Hiruzens boost in stamina as well as WA feats is not the same gap he had with JJ Obito. Enma is a good counter to preta. Whether he can use Enma against preta is an entirely different argument altogether, one i did not delve into. You asserted the significance of preta and i asserted something that could nullify it. Its also important to note that we don't know the circumstances of Hanzos death. Just because it looked like Pain might have used ST against Hanzo doesn't mean he did. Unless we have conclusive evidence something like that can't be used as a debating point as its purely inference. I find it a tough pill to swallow that Hiruzen, a man deemed worth of Hokage title with knowledge on Pain would knowingly engage all 6 in straight on combat. It doesn't add up in the least.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 25, 2018)

"The strongest of all"
"One who knows everything about konoha"
The one who gave "god of shinobi" title  to hashirama 
Losing to pain. 
People arguing against the manga

Reactions: Winner 2


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## La Moral Support XXV (Jan 25, 2018)

The_Conqueror said:


> "The strongest of all"
> "One who knows everything about konoha"
> The one who gave "god of shinobi" title  to hashirama
> Losing to pain.
> People arguing against the manga



After everything we know, I have to admit.... Kishimoto did shit on Hiruzen and forgot all about him. He‘s pretty powerul but we havent seen anything that puts him on Hashirama level. Maybe Tobirama as the only thing he would need to defeat Tobirama is an answer to his speed.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 25, 2018)

Imopink1 said:


> After everything we know, I have to admit.... Kishimoto did shit on Hiruzen and forgot all about him. He‘s pretty powerul but we havent seen anything that puts him on Hashirama level. Maybe Tobirama as the only thing he would need to defeat Tobirama is an answer to his speed.


Kishimoto could not show the might of prime hiruzen because it was too much for him to draw that's all

Reactions: Like 1


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## FlamingRain (Jan 25, 2018)

If his hype as the Professor is legit then Hiruzen makes several doppelgangers and proceeds to slam Pain with the force of the entire village. This time the Jutsu are being wielded by a Kage instead of mostly Chunin, and because they're clones of the same person they should work much better together.

No knowledge on Nagato's part means that he will lose a couple Pains quickly and full knowledge on Hiruzen's part means that the Pains will likely be defeated in an inconvenient order for Nagato. The chances of a turnaround are very small.

Hiruzen probably beats Pain.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 4


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## Kai (Jan 25, 2018)

Hiruzen will apply heavy pressure early on against Pain, and from there it will be impossible for Pain to mount a comeback.

Hiruzen wins. In fact Prime Hiruzen never loses.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Azula (Jan 25, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> All ninjutsu is absorbed by preta path so 90% of Hiruzen's arsenal is already gone down the drain



Paper Bombs blow up Preta.



RahulPK04 said:


> Moreover he has nothing to deal with the Animal path summons as well.



Animal paths' summons die to ninjutsu blast once Preta bites the dust, not like he can save them everytime in any case.



RahulPK04 said:


> Seeing how Tendo neg diff'd three giant toads with a simple ST



Well every summon has a different body make-up. Boss Toads broke their bones but Katsuyu managed just fine because her body is different to them

Enma when transformed is extremely tough and hard and quite unlike other summons and not at all likely to get hurt. In fact could protect Hiruzen by forming a cage around him as he did before.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Architect (Jan 25, 2018)

=_=\\
Mismatch.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Maverick04 (Jan 25, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> Paper Bombs blow up Preta.


Never seen Hiruzen use paper bombs before though..It's just an assumption that he carries paper bombs around..Even then he needs to make contact with the Preta path for that to even work, which I don't see him making tbh



-Azula- said:


> Animal paths' summons die to ninjutsu blast once Preta bites the dust, not like he can save them everytime in any case.


The Cerberus won't die though..It took a rasenshuriken and was still multiplying..And fighting off the summons along with the paths at the same time?? I mean Cmon..Even high Kages can't do that and we don't even know how strong Hiruzen was in his prime..We can't just assume that he casually handles them all




-Azula- said:


> Enma when transformed is extremely tough and hard and quite unlike other summons and not at all likely to get hurt. In fact could protect Hiruzen by forming a cage around him as he did before


Ok he's in the cage..Then what?? He stays there? How strong is Enma when transformed anyways??


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## La Moral Support XXV (Jan 25, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> Never seen Hiruzen use paper bombs before though..It's just an assumption that he carries paper bombs around..Even then he needs to make contact with the Preta path for that to even work, which I don't see him making tbh
> 
> 
> The Cerberus won't die though..It took a rasenshuriken and was still multiplying..And fighting off the summons along with the paths at the same time?? I mean Cmon..Even high Kages can't do that and we don't even know how strong Hiruzen was in his prime..We can't just assume that he casually handles them all
> ...



Strong enough to easily smash through Hashiramas Mokuton and defend against all of Orochimarus attacks.


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## Maverick04 (Jan 25, 2018)

Imopink1 said:


> Strong enough to easily smash through Hashiramas Mokuton and defend against all of Orochimarus attacks.


Part 1 Edo Hashirama and Orochimaru are laughably weak compared to Pain..There's no comparison there


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## La Moral Support XXV (Jan 25, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> Part 1 Edo Hashirama and Orochimaru are laughably weak compared to Pain..There's no comparison there



Everyone got powerscaled in part 2, same for Hiruzen

Reactions: Like 4


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## Mithos (Jan 25, 2018)

By giving Hiruzen full knowledge of Pain's ability/secret, you've practically guaranteed his victory. He has skills to deal with the different Paths, and he's renown as The Professor for deducing attacks and producing the perfect counter. Since he already knows about the abilities, he'll start pulling out the appropriate counters right away, and he'll prioritize going after Nagato's real body. He can leave _Shadow Clones_ behind to hold off the Paths while his real body goes for Nagato or vice-versa. 

If he had to fight Pain in a neutral location (i.e., where Pain could use a _Great Almighty Push _or _Planetary Devastation_), Hiruzen would most likely lose.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Bonly (Jan 25, 2018)

Hiruzen doesn’t have a good enough defense to protect him from Pain attacks for to long and with Deva+Preta path to deal with his ranged jutsu, it’s just a matter of time before Hiruzen goes down


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## LostSelf (Jan 25, 2018)

Prime Hiruzen makes 8 clones with gates + byakugo + sage mode at the same time and proceeds to destroy.

Unless Nagato summons Toon "GG" Deva.

In that case Hiruzen is terribly destroyed.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MSAL (Jan 25, 2018)

Toon Deva solos.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 25, 2018)

I fucking hate this Hiruzen meme

Normally i can get behind the BD when we are having a laugh at something...

But it makes me genuinely nauseous the lengths people go to when discussing hiruzen

Especially when it appears that 1 or 2 of you are legitimately serious in thinking any version of Hiruzen has a chance here

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Coolest Guy! 2


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## Kuzehiko (Jan 25, 2018)

Pein negs him badly.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jan 25, 2018)

Nagato is introduced to true pain for the first time when The Professor starts making him pay royalty fees to call himself god.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 25, 2018)

If SM Jiraiya could defeat Pain under similar conditions, then prime Hiruzen can definitely do it under even more favorable conditions. Albeit with high difficulty nonetheless, as it definitely won't be easy no matter what Hiruzen does.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kisame (Jan 25, 2018)

How does anyone seriously think Hiruzen stands a chance?

Pain doesn't even need all his bodies, Deva is probably not needed.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 25, 2018)

Shark said:


> How does anyone seriously think Hiruzen stands a chance?
> 
> Pain doesn't even need all his bodies, Deva is probably not needed.


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## Kisame (Jan 25, 2018)

loool Databook hyperbole

Not only was his "god of shinobi" title stripped away and given to Hashirama (not that it needs to be), but his feats rank him several tiers below Pain.

Heck, I'm pretty sure a decent argument could be made to substantiate Pain defeating even "prime" Hiruzen based on hype.

A DB page *being *the only argument why Hiruzen wins kind of signifies just how much weaker he actually is than his opponent.


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## ARGUS (Jan 25, 2018)

Horrible matchup
Pein absolutely steamrolls Him


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 25, 2018)

Addressing the whole prime hiruzen and "strongest kage" nonsense...

The idea that people genuinely believe a 30 something Hiruzen beats a 30 something Ohnoki is the definition of hilarity to me

Especially considering when the infamous "prime/strongest kage" statement was released Kishi didnt even have Ohnoki or Jinton in his imagination yet and people still think it holds water 

Hiruzen, with the ability to make what...10 KBs at once as opposed to 5? 20 tops? And goton spam under his belt on top of that...

And hes gonna turn around and defeat a master jinton user with the ability to fly and lol at 80% of hiruzens arsenal with JUST flight, lighten himself and blitz people on base Kabuto and Deidaras tier in his OLD AGE, has clones himself to combat hiruzens, AND the ability to 1 shot Hiruzen with EITHER a projectile or A SINGLE TOUCH?

And do the exact same thing to every attack hiruzen can dish out via nullifying it with jinton?

Wake up 

Like bro...The simple fact Hashirama exists is also a direct debunk of the Prime theory in and of itself

Kishi then: "Hiruzen is most strongest Kage evar"

*Queue Hashis post timeskip entrance where he dicks on Madaras Iso Susanoo and 100% kurama*

Kishi now: "Yeah fuck dat prime shit"

And if the first half of the statement is invalidated...And it CLEARLY is...How can you cling *the second half of that very same now debunked sentence* with any kind of credibility

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 25, 2018)

Shark said:


> loool Databook hyperbole


 There's a difference between hyperbole and legitimate hype. Mastering all five basic nature transformations as well as hidden jutsu and genjutsu, knowing about all jutsu in Konoha, and being implied to be stronger than Tobirama in his prime isn't hyperbole, that is legit.



> Not only was his "god of shinobi" title stripped away and given to Hashirama (not that it needs to be), but his feats rank him several tiers below Pain.


 We've never seen prime Hiruzen fight before, so of course old Hiruzen's feats are worse.



> Heck, I'm pretty sure a decent argument could be made to substantiate Pain defeating even "prime" Hiruzen based on hype.


 I agree, but you should take into consideration the stipulations in this match up. That's the another reason why people believe he can win.



> A DB page *being *the only argument why Hiruzen wins kind of signifies just how much weaker he actually is than his opponent.


  Databook pages are official sources of legitimate information that are more informative than the manga itself at times. So it doesn't lessen their argument. Nonetheless, I do agree that even prime Hiruzen is below Pain, but if SM Jiraiya can defeat Pain with knowledge, I don't see why prime Hiruzen cannot.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 25, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Addressing the whole prime hiruzen and "strongest kage" nonsense...
> 
> The idea that people genuinely believe a 30 something Hiruzen beats a 30 something Ohnoki is the definition of hilarity to me
> 
> Especially considering when the infamous "prime/strongest kage" statement was released Kishi didnt even have Ohnoki or Jinton in his imagination yet and people still think it holds water


 What's really hilarious is how you have a tendency to blatantly ignore canonical statements when they don't suit your argument. We have Hiruzen being stated to the strongest of the Five Kage in his youth and DB4 saying he has more talent than Tobirama and this is your response? Kishi didn't think of Onoki yet? Something you cannot even prove?



> Hiruzen, with the ability to make what...10 KBs at once as opposed to 5? 20 tops? And goton spam under his belt on top of that...
> 
> And hes gonna turn around and defeat a master jinton user with the ability to fly and lol at 80% of hiruzens arsenal with JUST flight,


 If Onoki flies too far away he cannot attack Hiruzen in the first place, and Hiruzen can attack Onoki from multiple directions with various types of jutsu.


> lighten himself and blitz people on base Kabuto and Deidaras tier in his OLD AGE,


 He never blitzed either of them. 





> has clones himself to combat hiruzens, AND the ability to 1 shot Hiruzen with EITHER a projectile or A SINGLE TOUCH?


 His clones are inferior to Hiruzen's, Dust Release takes time to charge and can be interrupted, and if Onoki gets close he risks getting killed in a number of ways.



> And do the exact same thing to every attack hiruzen can dish out via nullifying it with jinton?
> 
> Wake up


 Look above. 



> Like bro...The simple fact Hashirama exists is also a direct debunk of the Prime theory in and of itself
> Kishi then: "Hiruzen is most strongest Kage evar"
> 
> *Queue Hashis post timeskip entrance where he dicks on Madaras Iso Susanoo and 100% kurama*
> ...


 What you're doing here is using Hashirama as a means of saying every single thing about Hiruzen is invalid: which is a horrible argument. The *only *thing that was officially retconned was Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage, and this is because of the retconned Hashirama: and even that is explained by people simply forgetting how strong he was due to his mythical power. Everything else that has been said about Hiruzen has *never* been invalidated, so I don't understand why you act like "prime Hiruzen" is some fan-fictional creation. Especially when the manga itself shows Hiruzen being more intelligent than Tobirama and DB4 stating that he had superior talent since childhood compared to Tobirama on top of everything else. It's almost as if you have some personal dislike for Hiruzen's character and will say whatever you possibly can in order to put the character down.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Gohara (Jan 25, 2018)

Sarutobi wins in my opinion.  He's intelligent and versatile enough to counter the Paths version of Nagato's techniques.  He's also one of several characters who has top tier portrayal.  Plus he's superior to Jiraiya who can match up on par with the Paths version of Nagato.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kisame (Jan 25, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> There's a difference between hyperbole and legitimate hype. Mastering all five basic nature transformations as well as hidden jutsu and genjutsu, knowing about all jutsu in Konoha, and being implied to be stronger than Tobirama in his prime isn't hyperbole, that is legit.


Mastering all five elements only amounts to his talent. If you wanna equate that to his combat strength, you need to actually what those Jutsu are, what their strengths are, and how much they would elevate him in power-scaling. But we can't so it sucks...The same with those hidden jutsu and genjutsu. Knowledge about jutsu in Konoha is just that, knowledge, not strength.

So most of what you mentioned is hype for his greatness but it can't really be quantified into battle terms I'm afraid.

I also read the DB page it literally says he's more *talented *than Tobirama but you're even willing to manipulate that into "implied to be stronger". Which again brings me to my point that him needing a DB page to qualify says a lot.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 25, 2018)

Shark said:


> Mastering all five elements only amounts to his talent. If you wanna equate that to his combat strength, you need to actually what those Jutsu are, what their strengths are, and how much they would elevate him in power-scaling. But we can't so it sucks...The same with those hidden jutsu and genjutsu. Knowledge about jutsu in Konoha is just that, knowledge, not strength.


 Yeah it is unfortunate that we don't know exactly what he can do, we only have a general idea. But mastering the five elements automatically elevates him to a high level among the Kage. Most people cannot use let alone master all five, so being able to do that on top of master a bunch of hidden jutsu and genjutsu should give you an idea of how strong he is. 



> So most of what you mentioned is hype for his greatness but it can't really be quantified into battle terms I'm afraid.
> 
> I also read the DB page it literally says he's more *talented *than Tobirama but you're even willing to manipulate that into "implied to be stronger". Which again brings me to my point that him needing a DB page to qualify says a lot.


 What else does being more talented mean as a shinobi but having the potential to become stronger than someone? If you say someone has more talent than you, that means they're either better or have the potential to become better than you at said thing.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 25, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> What's really hilarious is how you have a tendency to blatantly ignore canonical statements when they don't suit your argument


Im not ignoring them whatsoever

Im saying that they barely hold up (if at all) when placed under a microscope or in the grand scheme of things

And they dont 

You trying to spin this into some sort of personal slight i have against the character changes nothing about what im saying

A. Hiruzen is stated to be the strongest Hokage
B. Debunked by direct canon of Hashirama, Minato, and Topbirama having FAR better feats then he does

A. Hiruzen is stated to be the strongest current Kage
B. Again, Ohnoki, A, and Yagura would all logically be FAR more powerful then he is given feats such as Ohnoki carrying a fight against Madara in his old age, A blitzing people faster then hiruzen can even comrehend and breaking defenses way more durable then anything Hiruzen has, and Yagura being a goddamn perfect Jin who can TBB wipe Hiruzens ass at any juncture

Feel free to jump in at any point here and explain where im ignoring something out of bias 

And again i ask you...



Isaiah13000 said:


> We have Hiruzen being stated to the strongest of the Five Kage in his youth


And with simple logic alongside retroactive reasoning of the entire context of the manga...We can determine that lolno

"Prime" hiruzen gets exactly 2 things over his old self if you even remotely think about it...


Better Stamina
And arbitrary stat increases overall due to his body depreciating with old age because simple biology
And in no world do either of these upgrades help him against pain...Or Hashirama or other Kage for that matter

They blatantly just dont

Yet people throw out all logic and reasoning of this fact based on IRUKAS word

Of all damn people

Thats what gets me 

Iruka is teh guy who stated Hiruzen=GOAT

And hes never met Tobirama, Hashirama, or any other Kage for that amtter

Yet nah man

Iruka=Gospel


Isaiah13000 said:


> If Onoki flies too far away he cannot attack Hiruzen in the first place


I didnt say he was going to get distance

Its called evasive maneuvering

Ohnoki has an entire plane of movement on Hiruzen he can take advantage of when avoiding attacks...

He doesnt need to tuck tail and run 


Isaiah13000 said:


> He never blitzed either of them.


No he just gunned at them and they let him tag Kabuto on purpose 

They made no defensive, offensive, or evasive action for fun 


Anyway this is off topic

I brought it up and i realize that...But whatever moving on


Isaiah13000 said:


> His clones are inferior to Hiruzen's


Based on what

If they function like water clones...Fair enough

But if its effectively like a Raiton KB or a mokutonbunshin...You have no basis for this argument 


Isaiah13000 said:


> Dust Release takes time to charge and can be interrupted


 



Isaiah13000 said:


> if Onoki gets close he risks getting killed in a number of ways.


Not as much as hiruzen does 

1 freaking touch is all ohnoki needs and Hiruzen is GGd...

Even if Hiruzen guarded it wouldnt make a difference


Isaiah13000 said:


> What you're doing here is using Hashirama as a means of saying every single thing about Hiruzen is invalid: which is a horrible argument


Thats not what im doing at all

Thats PART of what im doing




Isaiah13000 said:


> The *only *thing that was officially retconned was Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage


But not the point that follws in the very same sentence 

Again i ask you why you cling so hard to a statement made by Iruka, a literally nobody, when teh first half of his word is proven bullshit on top of that


Isaiah13000 said:


> It's almost as if you have some personal dislike for Hiruzen's character and will say whatever you possibly can in order to put the character down.


I disagree 

To me its the opposite

To me it looks liek you enjoy Hiruzens character so much youre being intellectual dishonest and ignoring the possibility (a very REAL possibility) that kishi took his creative freedom and made retroactive changes to his own work of fiction 

And over IRUKAS word no less like...I just dont get it

Something done a lot around here actually

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Kisame (Jan 25, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Yeah it is unfortunate that we don't know exactly what he can do, we only have a general idea. *But mastering the five elements automatically elevates him to a high level among the Kage. Most people cannot use let alone master all five, so being able to do that on top of master a bunch of hidden jutsu and genjutsu should give you an idea of how strong he is.*


Like I said in my previous post, we need to know what the Jutsus are and what are their levels, etc to make an actual judgement on his power.

All that's in bold means "he's talented and strong" but nothing to bring to any decent debate about high tiers and power levels.


> What else does being more talented mean as a shinobi but having the potential to become stronger than someone? If you say someone has more talent than you, that means they're either better or have the potential to become better than you at said thing.


It says right there in the page that he was more talented at a young age, and then goes on to explain that he learned the 5 elements, etc.


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## La Moral Support XXV (Jan 26, 2018)

Hiruzen could have been stronger in his prime but the author never showcased any battles for him in the manga from his prime. (Probably for plot purposes) but what’s the point of all the hype if we aren’t going to see any of it....  not even in a flashback. That’s where Kishimoto confused me lol. I would have been perfectly been fine with him giving Hashirama and Tobirama lesser backstories and elaborating on Hiruzen more in the war arc.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 26, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Im not ignoring them whatsoever
> 
> Im saying that they barely hold up (if at all) when placed under a microscope or in the grand scheme of things
> 
> And they dont


 Based on what exactly?



> You trying to spin this into some sort of personal slight i have against the character changes nothing about what im saying
> 
> A. Hiruzen is stated to be the strongest Hokage
> B. Debunked by direct canon of Hashirama, Minato, and Topbirama having FAR better feats then he does


 Hiruzen was stated to be the strongest *in his youth*, not while he was old. How can you honestly compare Hashirama, Minato, and Tobirama to old Hiruzen and use that to debunk prime Hiruzen whose feats do not exist?



> A. Hiruzen is stated to be the strongest current Kage


 Kabuto said Hiruzen was said to be the strongest when he was younger, not the strongest of them all now.


> B. Again, Ohnoki, A, and Yagura would all logically be FAR more powerful then he is given feats such as Ohnoki carrying a fight against Madara in his old age, A blitzing people faster then hiruzen can even comrehend and breaking defenses way more durable then anything Hiruzen has, and Yagura being a goddamn perfect Jin who can TBB wipe Hiruzens ass at any juncture


 Again, you keep comparing them to old Hiruzen who is significantly weaker than his prime self. Why you can't comprehend just how strong prime Hiruzen would be based on one paragraph explaining what he can do is beyond me. Are you telling me a shinobi who can use the Yamanaka, Nara, Sarutobi, Uzumaki, all five elements and countless jutsu with them, and Kurenai's genjutsu (which one-shotted Kisame and Itachi had to use Sharingan to counter) wouldn't be a complete monster capable of defeating Onoki, A, and Yagura?



> Feel free to jump in at any point here and explain where im ignoring something out of bias
> 
> And again i ask you...
> 
> ...


 ....How do these things not help him out against other Kage? I am baffled by this statement, I really have no response.



> They blatantly just dont
> 
> Yet people throw out all logic and reasoning of this fact based on IRUKAS word
> 
> ...


 This is where our views differ, I for one believe that when the author has a character say something regarding the strength of another character, unless said statement is proven wrong, that that is the author's way of informing his reader on his characters.



> I didnt say he was going to get distance
> 
> Its called evasive maneuvering
> 
> ...


 He does in order to avoid an onslaught of large-scale ninjutsu from five different directions.



> No he just gunned at them and they let him tag Kabuto on purpose
> 
> They made no defensive, offensive, or evasive action for fun
> 
> ...


 They were caught off-guard and ambushed from out of nowhere, feats like that aren't impressive.



> Based on what
> 
> If they function like water clones...Fair enough
> 
> But if its effectively like a Raiton KB or a mokutonbunshin...You have no basis for this argument


 Onoki uses basic Rock Clones, Hiruzen uses Shadow Clones, which are a superior type of clone. We've also seen what Hiruzen's clones can do, and what they can do is better than what we've seen Onoki's do.



>


 The time it takes to charge Dust Release has been pointed out as a major thing that transcends the time it takes to form hand seals.




> Not as much as hiruzen does
> 
> 1 freaking touch is all ohnoki needs and Hiruzen is GGd...
> 
> Even if Hiruzen guarded it wouldnt make a difference


 Yeah, but how does he get past Hiruzen's jutsu and touch him in the first place? I can see old Onoki beating old Hiruzen, but not prime Hiruzen.



> Thats not what im doing at all
> 
> Thats PART of what im doing


 


> But not the point that follws in the very same sentence


 What point do you mean exactly?



> Again i ask you why you cling so hard to a statement made by Iruka, a literally nobody, when teh first half of his word is proven bullshit on top of that


 I addressed this already.



> I disagree
> 
> To me its the opposite
> 
> ...


 I'm not ignoring the possibility at all, it's just that to me nothing invalidates those previous statements so there's no reason to doubt their validity.



Shark said:


> Like I said in my previous post, we need to know what the Jutsus are and what are their levels, etc to make an actual judgement on his power.


 I agree, I just think we can still get a good idea out of what we know now.



> All that's in bold means "he's talented and strong" but nothing to bring to any decent debate about high tiers and power levels.


 We can infer on what jutsu he would know based on what's been stated, so we do have a little bit to work with.



> It says right there in the page that he was more talented at a young age, and then goes on to explain that he learned the 5 elements, etc.


 What point are you trying to make? It says he is more talented, and then talks about him mastering the five elements, hidden jutsu, and genjutsu.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Kisame (Jan 26, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:
			
		

> What point are you trying to make? It says he is more talented, and then talks about him mastering the five elements, hidden jutsu, and genjutsu.


My point was it does not state he's stronger, just more talented.

And the only way to infer what that talent means is to look at the very next sentence which explains his mastery of elements, etc. things that make him *more talented *than the second Hokage.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 26, 2018)

I know the databook entry does not explicitly state that Hiruzen is more powerful than Tobirama, but...I would be very surprised if you took two people, allowed the more talented one to live much longer, and the less talented one still turned out to be more formidable. I would wonder why Kishimoto bothered to even point out that the one was more talented to begin with.

There are at least two other things that _could_ be considered for Hiruzen's strength when he had his youth. One would be how Hiruzen claimed that he wouldn't die because he was the strongest out of that group which included Tobirama. The other is Danzō admitting that he never caught up to Hiruzen.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Kai (Jan 27, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> The other is Danzō admitting that he never caught up to Hiruzen.


To be fair people ignore this statement and it's sad, even when comparing Danzo and Hiruzen specifically. Danzo's dying flashbacks were dedicated entirely to Prime Hiruzen.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 27, 2018)

Shark said:


> My point was it does not state he's stronger, just more talented.
> 
> And the only way to infer what that talent means is to look at the very next sentence which explains his mastery of elements, etc. things that make him *more talented *than the second Hokage.


It did not say he was more talented at the five elements than Tobirama was. It just said he showed more talent than Tobirama since childhood and then went on to explain everything he excelled in. That to me implies that he was better than Tobirama was in general during his youth. I don't even see the purpose of mentioning that he was more talented than Tobirama if it didn't mean something.


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