# Archangels vs. Leviathans (Supernatural TV series)



## LordFalcon (May 12, 2012)

Who would win?

Just recently Edger, the second in command Leviathan, shown immunity to two canon fodder angels and killed them with one shot each pumping their bodies with black goo which was fatally poisonous to them. But in my assessment, there is no way he can pull that off against an archangel. What do any of you think?


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## Ulti (May 12, 2012)

I didn't get that, Angels have exotic abilities up the wazoo then again they were fodder.

I reckon a named one like Balthazar could take them.


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## Stermor (May 13, 2012)

arch angels have feats that operate well beyond what any leviathans have done..


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## Gone (May 13, 2012)

Well all of the Leviathans were able to eventually overpower God-Cas who was much more powerful than Raphael. And was implied to be more powerful than Lucifer and Michael as well.

Also look at what Death said. That God created the Leviathans before Angels or Humans, but he was concerned they would devour the petree dish. I kind if took this to mean that they were more dangerous than his later creations, which included angels.


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## Saint Saga (May 13, 2012)

Or it could be that they just do whatever the hell they want , while the angels are very loyal ?

And it was a group effort when it comes to them taking over cas , and they only did that completely after he gave up the rest of the souls .


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## Tranquil Fury (May 13, 2012)

It could just be that Leviathans like Eve know the mechanics behind a regular angel's powers and can nullify them(we saw one angel try to raise his hand and look shocked nothing happened before Edgar impaled him).


Don't see them standing any chance against Archangels, those are much older than regular angels. It should be a curbstomp but let's see what Dick can do, one more episode left. Impressive he could kill those angels seeing as how their multi-dimensional waves of celestial intent as per Cas in S6.



> And it was a group effort when it comes to them taking over cas , and they only did that completely after he gave up the rest of the souls



They took control of him and made him slaughter those people, it's what prompts him to come for help and give back the souls in the first place. They held onto the vessel against his will while the other souls were unable to hold on and sent to purgatory. 

Still group effort as mentioned and that was more of a  feat of willpower.

Leviathans had hype but they have'nt shown to have any special powers outside being anti-angel and their regen, Archangels warp reality to dump into a dimension made of Borax with lots of decapitation to boot.


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## Gone (May 13, 2012)

Saint Saga said:


> Or it could be that they just do whatever the hell they want , while the angels are very loyal ?



Then how do you explain humans? Besides not all the angels are loyal, and even the one who were, werent really following Gods agenda, considering he was somewhat helping Dean, Sam, and Cas work against them.



> And it was a group effort when it comes to them taking over cas , and they only did that completely after he gave up the rest of the souls .



Actually they were taking over before that, they made him slaughter that room full of people when he blacked out. Even Death said he wasnt going to last long and that the Leviathans were going to take over eventually.

I prolly gve this to the archangels untill we see more feats.


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## Saint Saga (May 13, 2012)

Keep in mind the angels didn't do that untill what.......thousands upon thousands of year after the whole sealing thing ?

And the humans were made because they were unique.

The leviathans however were inheritly destructive and they were seeking to just eat everything.

Either way i don't think any of the leviathans showed anything to put them near archangel level yet , although fodder leviathans are>>>fodder angels .


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## Tranquil Fury (May 13, 2012)

Edgar is not a fodder Leviathan, right now he's the second strongest.


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## Gone (May 13, 2012)

Yea i was gonna say the fodder Leviathans didnt seem all that strong compared to your average angel. I havnt watched Supernatural since Bobby was implied to be back as a spirit though, Im boycotting the show in protest of the trivialisation of character Deaths (at least untill I get bored).

My man here can not be happy.


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## Saint Saga (May 13, 2012)

I'm aware , it just seems like leviathans just have the ability to nullify the fodder angels powers , hence my comment .


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## LordFalcon (May 13, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Well all of the Leviathans were able to eventually overpower God-Cas who was much more powerful than Raphael. And was implied to be more powerful than Lucifer and Michael as well.
> 
> Also look at what Death said. That God created the Leviathans before Angels or Humans, but he was concerned they would devour the petree dish. I kind if took this to mean that they were more dangerous than his later creations, which included angels.



Most angels live in heaven and are in their true forms which are energy entities the size of a skyscraper. Unless the leviathans are as big as angels and they can enter heaven, which I doubt, Death meant they would devour physical creatures around the known universe. on planets. Archangels live with God or at least right next to the proximity of him.

The 4 archangel brothers and Death the Horseman are the only ones who've seen God's true image. They converse and even have a relationship with him. It's perfectly logical and within reason that they should be older than Dick, Edger, and the rest of the leviathans.


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## Gone (May 14, 2012)

I thought I explained this whole "4 archangle brothers" thing a while ago...

Raphael is neither in the same teir, nor does he share any similar relationship with Michael, Lucifer, and Gabriel. And from what I understood there have been two new archangels introduced recetnly, which to me kind of proves that Raph is just one of many.


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## Asura Wrath (May 14, 2012)

Hello Ryjacork you cock Goggling ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) shit eating dog. Remember me? I lord hell.


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## Saint Saga (May 14, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> I thought I explained this whole "4 archangle brothers" thing a while ago...
> 
> Raphael is neither in the same teir, nor does he share any similar relationship with Michael, Lucifer, and Gabriel. And from what I understood there have been two new archangels introduced recetnly, which to me kind of proves that Raph is just one of many.



No..there weren't any new archangels introduced .

I mean metatron MIGHT count i guess , but they only mention it by name and it doesn't even appear .

Other then that i don't think any new major angel was introduced .


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## Gone (May 14, 2012)

Saint Saga said:


> No..there weren't any new archangels introduced .
> 
> I mean metatron MIGHT count i guess , but they only mention it by name and it doesn't even appear .
> 
> Other then that i don't think any new major angel was introduced .



Even then putting Raph in the same league as Michael, Lucifer, and Gabriel dosnt sit right with me. None of them ever even mention him by name, and he certainly dosnt have the power to match up to them, considering Cass was able to pwn him after getting an upgrade from Crowley of all people.

Plus Cas kind of implied there were other archangels as well.


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## teddy (May 14, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Even then putting Raph in the same league as Michael, Lucifer, and Gabriel dosnt sit right with me. None of them ever even mention him by name, and he certainly dosnt have the power to match up to them, considering Cass was able to pwn him after getting an upgrade from *Crowley of all people*.



What?

50,000 souls is one hell of an upgrade considering Raphael had previously one-shotted him with a gesture and Castiel had flat out admitted that under normal circumstances that he would lose to him without question. And in the episode The Third Man, Raphael had shown to still be superior to Castiel in a straight up fight. That and there's really no telling how far the gap is between Gabriel and Raphael to say that he would be unaffected by Castiel's power up.

It doesn't really matter what "sits right" with you since according to series canon and the reverence he recieves from weaker Angels, he's an Archangel all the same.



> Plus Cas kind of implied there were other archangels as well.



Just stick with the four that were introduced.


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## Lord Hell Retruns (May 14, 2012)

ArchAngels take this.


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## Gone (May 14, 2012)

? said:


> It doesn't really matter what "sits right" with you since according to series canon and the reverence he recieves from weaker Angels, he's an Archangel all the same.



Yes he is an archangel, but no that dosnt put him in the same teir as the other three. Lucifer, Michael, and Gabriel were the only three angels that were actually named in the Bible, so I think the series used those three as a templete for the most powerful, high tier angels.

Ive heard people assume that Raphael was the fourth angel that Anna mentioned that has seen God, Ive even heard people assume that he was the "new baby" that Gabriel mentioned made Lucifer go off the deep end and rebel (which was pretty obviouslly hummanity).

None of the three brothers (Lucy, Mike, Gabe) *ever* even mention him. people assume that the teir goes Archangels > Angels. I figure its more like Gab, Mike, Lucy > Archangels > Angels. He has never shown anything that puts him anywhere near the same level as the others.

I just dont like that people make a bunch of assumptions about him, just because he has the title Archangle over his head.


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## Black Leg Sanji (May 14, 2012)

Pretty sure Michael and Lucifer are both above Gabriel who in turn is above Raphael

Raphael did black out the entire eastern seaboard though,so he is nothing to scoff at by any means


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## Gone (May 14, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Pretty sure Michael and Lucifer are both above Gabriel who in turn is above Raphael



Even then Lucifer (and I assume Michael) shared the whole "brother" bond with Gabriel, and none of them every even mention Raphael. I mean in a sence all the angels are brothers, but Lucifer, Michael, and Raphael shared a closer bond with each other than they did with the rest. 

I mean Lucifer calls Castiel brother too, but when they first meet he dosnt even know exactally who he is, other than his name. I just dont think Raphael is in the same little group (idk what els to call it since even those three arent exactally in the same power tier) as the others.


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## Black Leg Sanji (May 14, 2012)

Can just say he is the weakest Archangel 

As for the new Archangels that were supposed to be introduced, pretty sure that was a mistake by the spoiler author, as the two shown were normal angels under Cas command back in the old days

Edit: The third which was Metatron didnt appear 

However:



He might turn out to be quite powerful


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## Saint Saga (May 14, 2012)

Well , all that is left is the season finale so i doubt metatron will apear .

Maybe in the next season ?


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## teddy (May 14, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Yes he is an archangel, but no that dosnt put him in the same teir as the other three. Lucifer, Michael, and Gabriel were the only three angels that were actually named in the Bible, so I think the series used those three as a templete for the most powerful, high tier angels.



)



> Ive heard people assume that Raphael was the fourth angel that Anna mentioned that has seen God



Who else could it have been we haven't seen hide or tail of at least a fifth Archangel.



> Ive even heard people assume that he was the "new baby" that Gabriel mentioned made Lucifer go off the deep end and rebel (which was pretty obviouslly hummanity).



Thought that was pretty obvious.



> None of the three brothers (Lucy, Mike, Gabe) *ever* even mention him. people assume that the teir goes Archangels > Angels. I figure its more like Gab, Mike, Lucy > Archangels > Angels. He has never shown anything that puts him anywhere near the same level as the others.



I'd agree with Gabriel being above Raphael, but I'm not seeing any concrete ground to say that the gap between the two of them is as big as your trying to imply.



> I just dont like that people make a bunch of assumptions about him, just because he has the title *Archangle* over his head.



Archangle?


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## Black Leg Sanji (May 14, 2012)

Saint Saga said:


> Well , all that is left is the season finale so i doubt metatron will apear .
> 
> Maybe in the next season ?



Probably

Maybe there are more words of God out there

With Metatron as their protector


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## Gone (May 14, 2012)

? said:


> )



If you read your own wiki link you would see that the name Raphael was passed down through other Jewish scripts not included in the Torah or the Hebrew Bible.



> Who else could it have been we haven't seen hide or tail of at least a fifth Archangel.



Who the Hell says it was an archangel? Maybe it was that angel Joshua who talks to God, maybe they didnt wanna write themselves into a corner in case they decided to bring a new angel in later so they left a spot open.

Archangels are desribed as the elite warriors of heaven, nowhere are they described as the leaders of heaven or the only angels who have spoken to God. Hell Zacharaia wasnt an archangel and he seemed to have more authority than Raphael who was deligated to Chucks baby sitter for most of seasons 4&5.



> I'd agree with Gabriel being above Raphael, but I'm not seeing any concrete ground to say that the gap between the two of them is as big as your trying to imply.



Its not even about a gap in power, its about the fact that Raphael has seemly nothing to do with gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer and for some reason people always lump them together.

It dosnt matter this whole thing is way off topic anyway, I dont really feel liek discussing it anymore.


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## LordFalcon (May 14, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Archangels are desribed as the elite warriors of heaven, nowhere are they described as the leaders of heaven or the only angels who have spoken to God. Hell Zacharaia wasnt an archangel and he seemed to have more authority than Raphael who was deligated to Chucks baby sitter for most of seasons 4&5.



Maybe you missed the episode of Raphael saying Zachariah has nothing compared to Raph's imagination when it comes to torture. Michael and Raphael are on the same side. It's that Michael, being the eldest by far, gives out the orders. And Raph is his second in command. And in turn Zachariah answers to them both. Gabriel wants no part of it. Favoring humanity. He's on witness protection from heaven's reach. 

So you're saying that Michael doesn't rule heaven in God's absence? According to whom? Metatron, as far as we know, is only a scribe. No angel is above Michael. He is the eldest celestial in heaven. And God's second in command.

We know there are more angels who have _spoken_ to him. But only 4 archangels and mostly likely Metatron have seen God's true visage. Death has also* seen* God's true form.

Did you watch season 5?



> Its not even about a gap in power, its about the fact that Raphael has seemly nothing to do with gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer and for some reason people always lump them together.



Raphael is older than Gabriel, unless you can prove otherwise.


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## teddy (May 14, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> If you read your own wiki link you would see that the name Raphael was passed down through other Jewish scripts not included in the Torah or the Hebrew Bible.



And yet that doesn't stop him from being honored as an archangel among the Jewish faith.



> Who the Hell says it was an archangel? Maybe it was that angel Joshua who talks to God, maybe they didnt wanna write themselves into a corner in case they decided to bring a new angel in later so they left a spot open.



And you have a substantial amount of evidence to convince others that it wasn't an Archangel? And it's ironic that you mention Joshua as a potential candidate when he responds to Zachariah with revernece.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> JOSHUA: Excuse me. Sir?
> 
> Zachariah turns to face the newcomer. A slight, older, black man.
> 
> ...








> Archangels are desribed as the elite warriors of heaven, nowhere are they described as the leaders of heaven or the only angels who have spoken to God. Hell Zacharaia wasnt an archangel and he seemed to have more authority than Raphael who was deligated to Chucks baby sitter for most of seasons 4&5.



You seem to be forgetting that prophets are among the top priority on the Angels' list, so I'm not seeing how Raphael going out of his way to protect Chuck personally is a knock against his authority. And why wouldn't he have more authority than Zachariah when it's pretty obvious that he's older and more powerful than him?




> Its not even about a gap in power, its about the fact that Raphael has seemly nothing to do with gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer and for some reason people always lump them together.



Because all four of them are Archangels?

If it's not about power then what else could it be? Cause it's fairly obvious that he would've interracted with Michael and Gabriel while they were still in Heaven.


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## Gone (May 14, 2012)

? said:


> And yet that doesn't stop him from being honored as an archangel among the Jewish faith.



Thats dynamite, but that has nothing to do with my original point, which for some reason you responded to with just a wiki link, that actually only proved my original point.

What I said was that Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer are the only three angels actually named in the Christian Bible/Jewish Old testiment (assuming that Abbadon = Satan = Lucifer). there are plenty of angels mentioned in other, lesser scripture in the Christian and Jewish faith, but that wasnt what i was refering too.



> And you have a substantial amount of evidence to convince others that it wasn't an Archangel? And it's ironic that you mention Joshua as a potential candidate when he responds to Zachariah with revernece.



You know that you cant really prove a negetive right? The burden of proof is on somebody who makes a claim. The claim here being that Raphael is the fourth angel Anna refered to. To which i say that there is no evidence of that at all.

Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer all refer to God in a personal, familial way, as well as each other. None of them ever even mention Raphael, nor does he refer to any of them in that way. Assuming that just because hes an archangel, that means that he was one of the angels in what Im going to refer to as the original "heavenly family", or that automatically makes him the fourth angel that has seen God is stupid. Especially since now we aparently have a fifth archangel being introduced before long.



> You seem to be forgetting that prophets are among the top priority among the Angels.



They were hardly the #1 priority. In season 4 the first priority was making sure the seals got broken and the prophecy stayed on track, which Zachariah was in chareg of. And in season 5 it was finding the Winchesters and making sure Dean said yes, which Zachariah was in charge of.



> I'm not seeing how Raphael going out of his way to protect Chuck personally is a knock against his authority.



Because he let Dean manipulate him into driving off Lilith instead of just cosmic slapping him to some island in the south seas. And all he was doing was sitting on Chuck babysitting instead of actually getting involved in the game.



> And why wouldn't he have more authority than Zachariah when it's pretty obvious that he's older and more powerful than him?



If you take into account the fact that hes an archangel he may be more powerful than Zachariah, but feats dont put Raphael that far ahead of him. But I see no evidence anywhere that says Raphael is older.

And martial prowess or destructive power =/= authority. I thought it was pretty obvious that Zachariah had more authority since he was Michaels go to guy on finding the Winchesters, and making sure the seals were broken, and damn near everything els during season 4 and 5.



> If it's not about power then what else could it be? Cause it's fairly obvious that he would've interracted with Michael and Gabriel while they were still in Heaven.



Except that nobody ever even mentions him? Gabriel and Lucifer talked to each other about God, about Michael, about each other, etc. Nowhere in their whole exchange about their family does anybody ever mention Raphael. i dont even think Lucifer and Gabriel know he exists for all they talk about him.



LordFalcon said:


> Raphael is older than Gabriel, unless you can prove otherwise.



Pretty sure this is a dupe, but wtf are you basing that off of?


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## teddy (May 14, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> You know that you cant really prove a negetive right? The burden of proof is on somebody who makes a claim. The claim here being that Raphael is the fourth angel Anna refered to. To which i say that there is no evidence of that at all.



So is this actually based on something besides their interaction? Because what we see on screen doesn't make up for the millenia that Raphael would've had to interact with Michael and Gabriel at least.



> Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer all refer to God in a personal, familial way, as well as each other. None of them ever even mention Raphael, nor does he refer to any of them in that way. Assuming that just because hes an archangel, that means that he was one of the angels in what Im going to refer to as the original "heavenly family", or that automatically makes him the fourth angel that has seen God is stupid.



Same as the above.



> Especially since now we aparently have a fifth archangel being introduced before long.



Who said anything about a fifth Archangel? Metatron hasn't even made an appearance and you're already refering to him as an Archangel. The tablet that Kevin interpreted doesn't define him as an Archangel. This is a double standard on your part.




> They were hardly the #1 priority. In season 4 the first priority was making sure the seals got broken and the prophecy stayed on track, which Zachariah was in chareg of. And in season 5 it was finding the Winchesters and making sure Dean said yes, which Zachariah was in charge of.



Prophets work as an instrumental aspect to God's plan considering they receive their visions from Heaven directly. Of course protecting them would be considered among top priority. So again, does it really matter who got what when both have been assigned high priority missions? 



> If you take into account the fact that hes an archangel he may be more powerful than Zachariah, but feats dont put Raphael that far ahead of him.



Cause a blackout across the Eastern Seaboard? 



> But I see no evidence anywhere that says Raphael is older.



The archangels were made before angels...



> And martial prowess or destructive power =/= authority. I thought it was pretty obvious that Zachariah had more authority since he was Michaels go to guy on finding the Winchesters, and making sure the seals were broken, and damn near everything els during season 4 and 5.



Who says Michael has to resort to his big guns to get a certain job done? 



> Except that nobody ever even mentions him? Gabriel and Lucifer talked to each other about God, about Michael, about each other, etc. Nowhere in their whole exchange about their family does anybody ever mention Raphael. i dont even think Lucifer and Gabriel know he exists for all they talk about him.



And Michael doesn't talk to Lucifer about Gabriel. As far as what can be derived, Raphael simply sticks to his task of protecting Chuck should he run into a situation that demands his interference, and Gabriel just off as Lucifer and Michael had their battle.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 14, 2012)

> Who said anything about a fifth Archangel? Metatron hasn't even made an appearance and you're already refering to him as an Archangel. The tablet that Kevin interpreted doesn't define him as an Archangel. This is a double standard on your part




This, really. As for Raphael's feats
-Blacked out Eastern seaboard just jacking a host
-Nullified Castiel's power
-Blasted him and his vessel(dude's tooth was stuck in Chuck's hair)

Michael himself barely has many feats outside pwning Annah and banishing Uriel, yet he's acknowledged as the strongest of the 4. Raphael is an Archangel, he's one of the top management which puts him above Zachariah and by a lot. 

Archangel>>>Seraph, Castiel outright states they are the strongest powers in heaven and absolute, Zach was middle management.

EDIT My god, did he just claim Michael, Lucifer and Gabriel don't know Raphael?Even if you go with Gaby and Lucy, Michael is in heaven with Raphael, arguing that Michael won't  know another Archangel in heaven is hilarious.


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## Gone (May 14, 2012)

? said:


> So is this actually based on something besides their interaction? Because what we see on screen doesn't make up for the millenia that Raphael would've had to interact with Michael and Gabriel at least.
> 
> 
> 
> Same as the above.



So your basing this off of mysterious off screen interactions that may or may not have ever even happened? The only information we get is what comes from on screen dude.



> Who said anything about a fifth Archangel? Metatron hasn't even made an appearance and you're already refering to him as an Archangel. The tablet that Kevin interpreted doesn't define him as an Archangel. This is a double standard on your part.



I believe I said Ive only watched the first half of the latest season. Somebody said in a different thread that two new archangels were introduced, and then in this thread I got the implication that this new angel was one of them.



> The archangels were made before angels...



Source?



> Who says Michael has to resort to his big guns to get a certain job done?



Yea and putting his big gun on a menial task that any fodder angel could handle makes so much more sence.



> And Michael doesn't talk to Lucifer about Gabriel. As far as what can be derived, Raphael simply sticks to his task of protecting Chuck should he run into a situation that demands his interference, and Gabriel just off as Lucifer and Michael had their battle.



Michale and Lucifer have talked to each other like brothers, the two of them were around in the very begining. Gabriel was as well based off of what he says to the Winchesters. And they all talk about each other like family, with God being the father. None of them ever mention Raphael, hes never brought up in any of the conversations about the original "family".



Tranquil Fury said:


> EDIT My god, did he just claim Michael, Lucifer and Gabriel don't know Raphael?Even if you go with Gaby and Lucy, Michael is in heaven with Raphael, arguing that Michael won't  know another Archangel in heaven is hilarious.



Ummm no thats not what i said. i said that Lucifer and Gabriel probably dont know he exists. And I meant that like neither of them give a shit rather than they literally dont know of his existance.

Lucifer didnt know Castiel at first either, what makes you think he knows Raphael? Gabriel might, but considering he did a lot of talking about Lucifer and Michael and God and never even mentioned Raphael I got the impression that he left before Raph was around.

Look I am so tired of this pointless argument. Idk where the fuck people get the idea Raphael was part of the original family just because hes an archangel. None of the three original "kids" ever mention him, *ever*. This shit about him being like the fourth brother is just pulled out of the air.

EDIT: And frankly Im not impressed by Raph blacking out the eastern seaboard. Zachariah created pocket dimensions and went back and foreth through time pretty casually, I dont see how Raphaels feat is more impressive.

I know hes more poweful, but that one feat isnt that impressive.


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## Black Leg Sanji (May 14, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> EDIT: And frankly Im not impressed by Raph blacking out the eastern seaboard. Zachariah created pocket dimensions and went back and foreth through time pretty casually, I dont see how Raphaels feat is more impressive.
> 
> I know hes more poweful, but that one feat isnt that impressive.



Do you know how big the Eastern Seaboard is?


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## Gone (May 14, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Do you know how big the Eastern Seaboard is?



Goku can black out the eastern seabord too, does that put him on the same level as archangels?

To me the more impressive feats are the reality/time warping things. In terms of pure destructions angels really arent all that impressive. We dont even know for sure if Lucifer is really a planet buster. based on Zachariahs statement I more got the impression he was a planetary life wiper.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 14, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Somebody said in a different thread that two new archangels were introduced, and then in this thread I got the implication that this new angel was one of them.



Yeah about that... the spoilers were bogus in this regard. Turn out the 2 Angels that were supposed to be Archangels were 2 mooks that used to be in Castiel's crew and they got pwned by the Leviathans. No new Archangels to this point. Smell test wins again I guess.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 14, 2012)

> Lucifer didnt know Castiel at first either, what makes you think he knows Raphael? Gabriel might, but considering he did a lot of talking about Lucifer and Michael and God and never even mentioned Raphael I got the impression that he left before Raph was around



Castiel is not an archangel, Lucifer not knowing every non archangel is understandable considering how many angels are there in heaven. There are only four archangels.



> Goku can black out the eastern seabord too, does that put him on the same level as archangels?



What the hell?Goku is a character from a separate work of fiction, how is this even close to a decent example, assuming this is Dragonball Goku he's vastly more powerful than any Archangel in stats, they have more H4X than him though.



> And frankly Im not impressed by Raph blacking out the eastern seaboard. Zachariah created pocket dimensions and went back and foreth through time pretty casually, I dont see how Raphaels feat is more impressive



It's more impressive because Zachariah does not display any such power, creating pocket dimensions is not impressive to an archangel, neither is casual time travel. I should mention him nullifying the powers of Castiel(this version was more powerful as he claimed to Dean in the end of S5 after God brought him back) or how he kicked Castiel's ass so bad he got sent flying from one heaven to another(see flashback in Man who would be King) or how he blasted Castiel and his vessel casually without a vessel of his own?.

Castiel needed some 50,000 or so souls to power him up the first time to BFR Raphael as we see in the man who would be King. Other instances required a weapon of heaven to take out his host body, all of heaven's weapons to scare him away and God Castiel was overkill.

An Archangel is vastly superior to a Seraph,they are older and more powerful due to greater knowledge of the universe, they are heaven's most fearsome and absolute power, Zach is not even in the same ballpark as Raphael. There is a reason why Archangels can leave their vessels a drooling mess, other angels can't e.g Castiel left Jimmy and his daughter with no harm.

EDIT Pretty much Esther and that guy were mook angels, the spoilers were wrong.


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## Gone (May 14, 2012)

Fuck it Im tired of arguing about this, it really dosnt make a difference either way.


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## teddy (May 14, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> So your basing this off of mysterious off screen interactions that may or may not have ever even happened?The only information we get is what comes from on screen dude.



And you're implying that Michael would've completely ignored the existence of another Archangel for millenia. You don't see that as stretching?



> I believe I said Ive only watched the first half of the latest season. Somebody said in a different thread that two new archangels were introduced, and then in this thread I got the implication that this new angel was one of them.



The allegation was proven false considering the two were only mooks who were in the same garrison as Castiel.



> Yea and putting his big gun on a menial task that any fodder angel could handle makes so much more sence.



Except protecting an instrumental aspect of God's plan isn't menial.



> Michale and Lucifer have talked to each other like brothers, the two of them were around in the very begining. Gabriel was as well based off of what he says to the Winchesters. And they all talk about each other like family, with God being the father. None of them ever mention Raphael, hes never brought up in any of the conversations about the original "family".



And Michael never said a word about Gabriel.



> EDIT: And frankly Im not impressed by Raph blacking out the eastern seaboard. Zachariah created pocket dimensions and went back and foreth through time pretty casually, I dont see how Raphaels feat is more impressive.
> 
> I know hes more poweful, but that one feat isnt that impressive.



You do realize Raphael did that by merely manifesting in his vessel, right? Zachariah hasn't done anything close to that scale.



Ryjacork said:


> To me the more impressive feats are the reality/time warping things. In terms of pure destructions angels really arent all that impressive. We dont even know for sure if Lucifer is really a planet buster. based on Zachariahs statement I more got the impression he was a planetary life wiper.



I don't recall anyone ever saying anything about him planet busting, but I thought it was pretty obvious that both him and Michael are casual lifewipers considering that Gabriel refers to their confrontation as "Sunday Dinner".


----------



## Tranquil Fury (May 14, 2012)

-Castiel also mentions an "inevitable blast wave"
-Lucifer does cause planetary scale natural disasters

It's a major plot point as to why Dean and Sam don't say yes. Not just for rebellious reasons but they repeatedly keep mentioning how saying yes and allowing that fight would be bad for the planet.

Castiel also notes in S6 that if Raphael releases Michael/Lucifer, the world turns into a graveyard.


----------



## Fang (May 14, 2012)

Is Supernatural on Netflicks? I'll start watching it if it is.


----------



## teddy (May 14, 2012)

Haven't used Netflicks before, but hopefully this helps. It apparently has the first six seasons.


----------



## Ulti (May 14, 2012)

I thought they said that Hester and Inias were considered Archangels because there were fuck all Angels in Heaven and they had to appoint some?

They were nowhere near the 4 original Archangels though.

Maybe Metatron will appear soon, he could appear in the finale, to protect/save Kevin from the Leviathans. That's kinda logical.


----------



## teddy (May 14, 2012)

No one said anything about them being promoted to Archangel status. Castiel just states Hester having taken over in place of Raphael and himself.



> CASTIEL
> They're from the Garrison – my old Garrison. Looks like Hester's taken over. We were assigned to watch the earth. Often, it was boring. The wars were very boring and the sex – you know, the repetition. Anyway, I was, uh... I was their captain. Isn't that strange?


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## Black Leg Sanji (May 14, 2012)

Fang said:


> Is Supernatural on Netflicks? I'll start watching it if it is.



Good mang


----------



## Gone (May 14, 2012)

@Fang

Yes Supernatural is on Netflix.



? said:


> I don't recall anyone ever saying anything about him planet busting, but I thought it was pretty obvious that both him and Michael are casual lifewipers considering that Gabriel refers to their confrontation as "Sunday Dinner".



For a while folks around here were refering to him as a planet buster because of a comment Zachariah made about him roasting the planet alive. I always thought of him more like a planetary life wiper though.

God-Cas on the other hand might be a planet buster, Death said that if he exploded he would take a significant chunk of the planet with him.


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## Ulti (May 14, 2012)

Lucifer and Michael are planet razers. 

It was Balthazar who said that but that is true and it is kinda convincing me that Godstiel is stronger than Lucifer and Michael


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## Gone (May 14, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Lucifer and Michael are planet razers.
> 
> It was Balthazar who said that but that is true and it is kinda convincing me that Godstiel is stronger than Lucifer and Michael



Well 50k souls closed the gap between Cas and Raph, and Crowley estimated there were something like 50 million souls in purgetory.

Which kind of seems low to me tbh, I figured there would be billions down there. I mean even if supernatural creatures are more rare, and die less often than humans, you would still think thered be more than that since the begining of time. Hell according to Kali there were billions of pagan Gods alone.

Anyway they certainly implied Cas was stronger since they all refered to him as "God", but feat wise its hard to tell since so many high teirs on the show are have kind of restricted feats.


----------



## Ulti (May 14, 2012)

Actually Word of God at a convention said that the souls of Pagan God's don't go to Purgatory


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## Gone (May 14, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Actually Word of God at a convention said that the souls of Pagan God's don't go to Purgatory



The what said what at where?


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## Ulti (May 14, 2012)

Salute to Supernatural last year or the year before I forget.

Can't find a video, extract on hand at the moment but take this for the mean time



> Confirmed in the last Salute to Supernatural for Season 6. Pagan deities are one of few supernatural species that don't go to Purgatory if they are killed.


----------



## Ulti (May 14, 2012)

They mention a lot of nifty things at conventions so they're worth checking out.

Ignoring the rabid fangirls of course.


----------



## Gone (May 14, 2012)

Hahaha I just pictured a bunch of real life Beckys.

A bit off topic (like this whole thread hasnt been) I was persuing that wiki you linked and it says the shows producer aparently confirmed that Chuck was in fact God? This kind of suprises me a bit with the way he was freaking out and ordering prostitutes and such earlier in the series 

But I suppose he could have just done that knowing Zachariah was watching.


----------



## Ulti (May 14, 2012)

It's probably best to assume God took Chuck's form as the climatic battle between Lucifer and Michael began 

I mean, it opens a can of worms, including that of Becky dating God, which is a horrendous thought.


----------



## Ulti (May 14, 2012)

omg something came through the cracks of purgatory.


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (May 14, 2012)

Oh god, suddenly wishing Lilith had gotten the chance to attack Chuck  Poor Raphael... always going to be joke tier.


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## LordFalcon (May 14, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Lucifer and Michael are planet razers.
> 
> It was Balthazar who said that but that is true and it is kinda convincing me that Godstiel is stronger than Lucifer and Michael



God Cass was very wary of having Michael escape Lucifer's cage. Which common sense says that he is equal to Michael in power. Or maybe Michael is slightly stronger. Lucifer is out of commission because Sam will never say yes to him again. Which is why God Cass isn't concerned with him.

His quote was: "And we need to keep Michael in Lucifer's cage."

Much earlier before, Cass at the hospital with Dean said Michael is *FAR* more powerful than Raphael. So God Cass isn't ever going to finger snap Michael. Mike is in a whole different league in power compared to Raph.


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## Gone (May 14, 2012)

LordFalcon said:


> God Cass was very wary of having Michael escape Lucifer's cage. Which common sense says that he is equal to Michael in power. Or maybe Michael is slightly stronger. Lucifer is out of commission because Sam will never say yes to him again. Which is why God Cass isn't concerned with him.
> 
> His quote was: "And we need to keep Michael in Lucifer's cage."
> 
> Much earlier before, Cass at the hospital with Dean said Michael is *FAR* more powerful than Raphael. So God Cass isn't ever going to finger snap Michael. Mike is in a whole different league in power compared to Raph.



Idk if Mike is really more powerful than God-Cas. I think him saying that about keeping the cage shut was just him trying to justify keeping all of his new power.


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## LordFalcon (May 14, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Idk if Mike is really more powerful than God-Cas. I think him saying that about keeping the cage shut was just him trying to justify keeping all of his new power.



I didn't say Michael is more powerful than God Cas. I said maybe he might be slightly stronger. Or at least the two are equal. If God Cas is beyond Michael, he would never hesitate to kill him in the cage. Like he killed Raphael and all of the angels on Raphael's side.

And Remember, Michael and Raphael are on the same team. So there's the proof and evidence.


----------



## Gone (May 15, 2012)

Meh I kinda think he killed Raphael just to prove a point


----------



## Shoddragon (May 15, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Well all of the Leviathans were able to eventually overpower *God-Cas who was much more powerful than Raphael. And was implied to be more powerful than Lucifer and Michael as well.
> *
> Also look at what Death said. That God created the Leviathans before Angels or Humans, but he was concerned they would devour the petree dish. I kind if took this to mean that they were more dangerous than his later creations, which included angels.



hell to the fuck no. Godstiel was terrified at the thought of michael and/or lucifer being let out of the cage.


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## Gone (May 16, 2012)

So I finally caught up on the episodes. Id like to point out that Edgar refered to Eave as a "pathetic mut" and she was able to completley nullify Castiels powers just by being in the same town.



Shoddragon said:


> hell to the fuck no. Godstiel was terrified at the thought of michael and/or lucifer being let out of the cage.



Your pulling that out of your ass. The implication with the whole "God" thing was that he was more powerful than either of them. Feat wise its hard to tell, depends how you interperate his actions. But he never said or did anything that implied he was "terrified" of them being out of the cage.


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## Shoddragon (May 16, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> So I finally caught up on the episodes. Id like to point out that Edgar refered to Eave as a "pathetic mut" and she was able to completley nullify Castiels powers just by being in the same town.
> 
> 
> 
> Your pulling that out of your ass. The implication with the whole "God" thing was that he was more powerful than either of them. Feat wise its hard to tell, depends how you interperate his actions. But he never said or did anything that implied he was "terrified" of them being out of the cage.



the whole implication was that he was on a power trip and was the only archangel-level being left besides Death and God ( who are above.... obviously). lucy and michael were in the cage and stuck there.


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## LordFalcon (May 16, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> So I finally caught up on the episodes. Id like to point out that Edgar refered to Eave as a "pathetic mut" and she was able to completley nullify Castiels powers just by being in the same town.



which is why Cas is again powerless. But going by the preview he will carry some borax with him.




> Your pulling that out of your ass. The implication with the whole "God" thing was that he was more powerful than either of them. Feat wise its hard to tell, depends how you interperate his actions. But he never said or did anything that implied he was "terrified" of them being out of the cage.


 
Here's the highly likely interpretation on why God Cas doesn't want Michael out of the cage. Michael, being severely pissed off for being locked in the cage because of Castiel's involvement, would fight him to the death. God Cas is at least as powerful, or a little stronger than Michael. If they fight, the side effects during the battle would result in the destruction of more than half the earth. The last thing God Cas needs is to be the cause of an apocalypse between him and Michael.

Hence God Cas's quote: "We need to Michael in Lucifer's cage."

He was not terrified of them. No. 

He was terrified of the inevitable likely outcome between him and Michael. Unlike with Raphael. God Cas is not beyond Michael. The above quote is proof of that.


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## Gone (May 16, 2012)

In fact IIRC that was Castiel+ 50k souls from Crowley that was nullified by Eve. A version of him that was arguably on the same level as Raphael.



Shoddragon said:


> the whole implication was that he was on a power trip and was the only archangel-level being left besides Death and God ( who are above.... obviously). lucy and michael were in the cage and stuck there.



No the implication is that he was more powerful than them. Even Michael and Lucifer were never refered to as "God". I mean thats just my interperatation, it could go either way. But Cas was certainly never even implied to be "terrified" of them.


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## Shoddragon (May 16, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> In fact IIRC that was Castiel+ 50k souls from Crowley that was nullified by Eve. A version of him that was arguably on the same level as Raphael.
> 
> 
> 
> No the implication is that he was more powerful than them. Even Michael and Lucifer were never refered to as "God". I mean thats just my interperatation, it could go either way. But Cas was certainly never even implied to be "terrified" of them.




so............ because Castiel was the only active archangel-level being left alive and he called himself god............ suddenly he is more powerful than lucifer or michael?


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## Gone (May 16, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> so............ because Castiel was the only active archangel-level being left alive and he called himself god............ suddenly he is more powerful than lucifer or michael?



He wasnt the only one. nobody ever refered to Lucifer and Michael as god when they were around. Hell Raphael believed God was dead and he never called Michael the new God.

Anyway its not just that, 50,000 souls were enough to let Castiel own Raphael, and purgetory gave him ten times that. plus its pretty well established that at his best Lucifer is a world razer, where as balthezar claimed Castiel would take out most of the planet itself with him if he exploded.

Raphael even talked said before hand that whoever took in that much power would be the new God.

Finally (and most importantly) the angel blade failed to kill castiel, when we saw it already kill Gabriel. And it was very heavily implied that Lucifer was vunerable to it as well.

So at the very least Godstiel > Gabriel, and most likley Lucifer as well, just based on that feat.


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## Shoddragon (May 17, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> He wasnt the only one. nobody ever refered to Lucifer and Michael as god when they were around. Hell Raphael believed God was dead and he never called Michael the new God.
> 
> Anyway its not just that, 50,000 souls were enough to let Castiel own Raphael, and purgetory gave him ten times that. plus its pretty well established that at his best Lucifer is a world razer, where as balthezar claimed Castiel would take out most of the planet itself with him if he exploded.
> 
> ...



1. terminology that means nothing here.
2. when did castiel ever own raphael pre-purgatory souls powerup? and the planet being boiled and shit as a side effect of lucifer fighting michael is just that: a side effect. and that makes sense, castiel absorbing millions of souls then exploding taking out a lot of the planet makes sense. Raphael simply arriving fucked up the power of the entire eastern seaboard.

3. yea because absorbing that much power would leave whoever absorbed it far above whoever was left. the two most powerful archangels were trapped in the cage bro. of course the new head honcho was gonna be whoever got the purgatory souls. God wasn't doing shit and death does pretty much as he pleases.

4. really? castiel was stabbed by an ARCHANGEL'S blade? I recall it being a standard angel blade. we've already seen a massive difference in their power. Unless you want to suggest the weapons wielded by some of the most powerful things in supernatural are the same exact shit used by all tiers of angels which is flat out retarded. Raphael was far too weak to do anything to Cas since cas just finger snapped his ass. no arch angel blade's left :/.

5. godstiel should be above raph and gabe but below lucifer and michael.


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## Gone (May 17, 2012)

Guess were just gonna ignore the actual thread I made for this :/



Shoddragon said:


> 2. when did castiel ever own raphael pre-purgatory souls powerup? and the planet being boiled and shit as a side effect of lucifer fighting michael is just that: a side effect. and that makes sense, castiel absorbing millions of souls then exploding taking out a lot of the planet makes sense. Raphael simply arriving fucked up the power of the entire eastern seaboard.



Pretty sure cas showed up and one shotted him after he got his little upgrade from crowley, right before he gave his little "Your either with him or with me" speech to the other angels.

And no Michael and Lucifer wouldnt have life wiped the planet by fighting each other. At best their fight would have caused country level destruction, I thought of it more like multiple nukes going off.

Zachariah said that Lucifer would have life wiped the planet if nobody stopped him. Thats why Dean saying yes to Michael was the lesser of two evils.



> 4. really? castiel was stabbed by an ARCHANGEL'S blade? I recall it being a standard angel blade. we've already seen a massive difference in their power. Unless you want to suggest the weapons wielded by some of the most powerful things in supernatural are the same exact shit used by all tiers of angels which is flat out retarded. Raphael was far too weak to do anything to Cas since cas just finger snapped his ass. no arch angel blade's left :/.



There has never been anything to implicate that there is any difference between the archangel blades and the normal ones, idk where your even getting that from.



> 5. godstiel should be above raph and gabe but below lucifer and michael.



You still havnt shown anything to back up this position.


----------



## Gone (May 17, 2012)

Oh I forgot, Godstiel was also able to see through Sam and Deans angel cloaking, which Lucifer and Michael were never able to do.4


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## Ulti (May 17, 2012)

That's probably because Castiel was no longer classified as an Angel so they wouldn't be hidden from him. Like the reason the blade did fuck all to him. Death classified him as a mutated Angel or an abomination.

Not really an indication of power though I would say Godstiel=>Michael=>Lucifer

Either way, the planet is boned


----------



## Gone (May 17, 2012)

Gonna respond in the other thread to avoid further derailment


----------



## Chuck (May 17, 2012)

a ghost was shoving Dick (the leader & strongest of the Leviathans) around, Archangels are obviously superior to Leviathans


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## Gone (May 17, 2012)

The Flying Chuck said:


> a ghost was shoving Dick (the leader & strongest of the Leviathans) around, Archangels are obviously superior to Leviathans



Just because paper beats rock, dosnt mean that it beats scissors. Anyway Im still gonna wait till the season finale to throw in my opinion.


----------



## LordFalcon (May 17, 2012)

Wait, how do we know that Castiel had the 50,000 souls with him when Eve nullified him? And Cas didn't kick Raphael's ass at all. He just banished him. Where was the ownage? He was not equal to him. After he did that, he didn't do it again, did he? That was a temporary loan from Crowley.

According to the endings of 'Meet the Boss' and 'Reading is Fundamental', it is an established confirmed fact that the Leviathan black goo is instantly fatal and poisonous to an Angel. It's their kryptonite basically. God Cas absorbed an entire species of leviathans "under the weight of all those souls" says the quote from Death. Which greatly helped Cas to survive for over week until the leviathans were muscling their way through the 30 million souls he absorbed. And inevitably poisoning and deteriorating his vessel. The Leviathans were the fuse and detonation. The 30 million souls were the Megaton Hydrogen Bomb.

This is clear proof beyond any doubt that the leviathans don't provide any power because they are not souls and they are poisonous to angels as confirmed in the endings of the two aforementioned episodes. What they do provide God Cas is immunity to all angel weaknesses.

So this concludes that just because God Cas was immune to angel weaknesses has nothing to do with power but by the immunity that the leviathans provided him. Hence why Death called him a mutated angel. It doesn't prove or mean anything that he is beyond Michael and Lucifer.


----------



## LordFalcon (May 17, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Gonna respond in the other thread to avoid further derailment


What other thread?


----------



## Gone (May 17, 2012)

LordFalcon said:


> Wait, how do we know that Castiel had the 50,000 souls with him when Eve nullified him? And Cas didn't kick Raphael's ass at all. He just banished him. Where was the ownage? He was not equal to him. After he did that, he didn't do it again, did he? That was a temporary loan from Crowley.



How about the fact that they continued to be at war with each other the rest of the season? If Cas didnt still have the 50k souls then what would have stopped Raphael from finger snapping him the very next time they met.



> According to the endings of 'Meet the Boss' and 'Reading is Fundamental', it is an established confirmed fact that the Leviathan black goo is instantly fatal and poisonous to an Angel. It's their kryptonite basically. God Cas absorbed an entire species of leviathans "under the weight of all those souls" says the quote from Death. Which greatly helped Cas to survive for over week until the leviathans were muscling their way through the 30 million souls he absorbed. And inevitably poisoning and deteriorating his vessel. The Leviathans were the fuse and detonation. The 30 million souls were the Megaton Hydrogen Bomb.
> 
> This is clear proof beyond any doubt that the leviathans don't provide any power because they are not souls and they are poisonous to angels as confirmed in the endings of the two aforementioned episodes. What they do provide God Cas is immunity to all angel weaknesses.
> 
> So this concludes that just because God Cas was immune to angel weaknesses has nothing to do with power but by the immunity that the leviathans provided him. It doesn't prove or mean anything that he is beyond Michael and Lucifer.



Nice theory, but theres nothing to show that Castiels immunity to angels weapons and cloaking was due to the leviathans. Like you just said Leviathan goo is fatal to angels, so if anything having the leviathans inside him would have just made him weaker.


----------



## LordFalcon (May 17, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> How about the fact that they continued to be at war with each other the rest of the season? If Cas didnt still have the 50k souls then what would have stopped Raphael from finger snapping him the very next time they met.



It didn't stop Raphael from constantly threatening him now, did it?



> Nice theory, but theres nothing to show that Castiels immunity to angels weapons and cloaking was due to the leviathans. Like you just said Leviathan goo is fatal to angels, so if anything having the leviathans inside him would have just made him weaker.



More like evidence. The entire species of leviathans didn't kill him instantly because he was under the weight of 30 million souls. Notice when he released all those souls back to purgatory, Cas didn't last not one minute against all those leviathans in him.

There is no evidence suggesting the souls gave him immunity. There is considerable strong evidence the Leviathans did. Simply because they are not souls and they are older than virtually everything else. Leviathans are not angels. And there are hundreds, thousands, perhaps millions of them inside him.


----------



## Gone (May 17, 2012)

LordFalcon said:


> It didn't stop Raphael from constantly threatening him now, did it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dude stop. The leviathans didnt give him any special immunity, you yourself just said they are poisonous to angels.

There are plenty of other examples of high teir demons or angels that are powerful enough to be immune to the weaknesses of their kind (Azazel, Meg, Michael, demon blood Sam, etc.)


----------



## LordFalcon (May 17, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Dude stop. The leviathans didnt give him any special immunity, you yourself just said they are poisonous to angels.
> 
> There are plenty of other examples of high teir demons or angels that are powerful enough to be immune to the weaknesses of their kind (Azazel, Meg, Michael, demon blood Sam, etc.)


 
Yes poisonous to angels. But not instantly poisonous to an angel who absorbed 30 millions souls. It was a very slow process for Cas to be poisoned by an entire species of leviathans. While they were very slowly poisoning him, they also unwillingly provided him immunity because the leviathans are virtually unkillable.

That was exactly what was shown in the episode 'Meet the New Boss'.

Why is this difficult to comprehend something that is so blatantly obvious?


----------



## Gone (May 17, 2012)

LordFalcon said:


> Yes poisonous to angels. But not instantly poisonous to an angel who absorbed 30 millions souls. It was a very slow process for Cas to be poisoned by an entire species of leviathans. While they were very slowly poisoning him, they also unwillingly provided him immunity because the leviathans are virtually unkillable.
> 
> That was exactly what was shown in the episode 'Meet the New Boss'.
> 
> Why is this difficult to comprehend something that is so blatantly obvious?



Caus your pulling this out of your ass? They never mentioned anywhere in the show that the leviathans provided Cas with this immunity. Even if the millions of souls protected him from the poison, that still wouldnt make the levis do anything helpful for him. The souls gave him the power to overcome the angel blade just like the leviathan poison.

If the writers wanted us to think that the leviathans provided him with their immunity then they would have found some way to hint at it for us.


----------



## LordFalcon (May 17, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Caus your pulling this out of your ass? They never mentioned anywhere in the show that the leviathans provided Cas with this immunity. Even if the millions of souls protected him from the poison, that still wouldnt make the levis do anything helpful for him. The souls gave him the power to overcome the angel blade just like the leviathan poison.
> 
> If the writers wanted us to think that the leviathans provided him with their immunity then they would have found some way to hint at it for us.



Can you provide clear evidence that souls provide immunity other than using God Cas as your evidence? The souls provided a temporary buffer to the leviathans poison.


----------



## Gone (May 17, 2012)

LordFalcon said:


> Can you provide clear evidence that souls provide immunity other than using God Cas as your evidence? *The souls provided a temporary buffer to the leviathans poison.*



Im not disputing that, Im disputing that the Levithans gave him immunity to angel blades and such. The levi goo is poison to angels, so yes maybe the souls protected him from the leviathans, but that dosnt mean the leviathans provided Cas with any helpfull buffs or anything like that.


----------



## LordFalcon (May 17, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Im not disputing that, Im disputing that the Levithans gave him immunity to angel blades and such. The levi goo is poison to angels, so yes maybe the souls protected him from the leviathans, but that dosnt mean the leviathans provided Cas with any helpfull buffs or anything like that.



God Cas is either slightly stronger, weaker, or equal to Michael and Lucifer. It's an established fact that he is not beyond them.

Now knowing this, we have seen Lucifer wary of Gabriele's blade and we have seen Michael getting banished temporarily by holy oil thrown at him.

If all three are in the same tier of power which they are, then how do you explain God Cas's immunity to angel weaknesses?!?!? When neither Michael or Lucifer are completely immune to angel weaknesses?

Let me hear it. You still didn't provide me evidence yet that I asked for.


----------



## Gone (May 17, 2012)

LordFalcon said:


> God Cas is either slightly stronger, weaker, or equal to Michael and Lucifer. It's an established fact that he is not beyond them.



That has absolutley not been established to a concensus.



> If all three are in the same tier of power which they are, then how do you explain God Cas's immunity to angel weaknesses?!?!? When neither Michael or Lucifer are completely immune to angel weaknesses?



Except maybe thats proof that their not in the same teir and gostiel is more powerful than the other two?


----------



## LordFalcon (May 17, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> That has absolutley not been established to a concensus.


Yes it has.

Then why would Cas want Michael kept in Lucifer's cage then? Because Michael would pose a threat. Lucifer is out of commission because he lost his Sam condom. Michael already has Adam.



> Except maybe thats proof that their not in the same teir and gostiel is more powerful than the other two?



Cas: "We need to keep Michael in Lucifer's cage."

Don't ignore outright proof.

Raphael and Michael are on the same side in the Apocalypse. Cas went through thick and thin, even becoming a fallen angel to do his absolute best to avert the apocalypse. After he killed Raphael, he immediately took care of Raph's angel army. If God Cas could obliterate Michael with the same ease he did with Raphael. He would have done so. Instead the above quote shows his wariness of Michael. Hence why he wanted Crowley alive to make sure Michael stays in there among other reasons.

Don't be a deceitful ignorant obnoxous troll.

Where the hell is your feat evidence?


----------



## Gone (May 17, 2012)

LordFalcon said:


> Yes it has.



Really? Caus 3 of the 5 posters in the Godstiel vs Lucifer and Michael thread say he would solo them both, 1 guy says that he is more powerful than either 1v1 and would be a close fight 2v1, and 1 guy said that the two brothers *together* would be more powerful.

It seems to me the majority thus far believes that Godstiel is more powerful than both of them together.



> Then why would Cas want Michael kept in Lucifer's cage then?



The whole point of him saying that the cage must be kept shut was part of him trying to justify keeping his new "God" powers.



> Don't ignore outright proof.



When i see some I wont.



> Hence why he wanted Crowley alive to make sure Michael stays in there among other reasons.



He wanted Crowley alive because he needed to maintain Hell so that he could have something to threaten his enemies with.

He oblitorated Raphaels angel army because they defied him, not because they were a threat. He didnt care about michael or Lucifer at that point, after he took in the souls he just went all Machiavellian on everybody who defied him before. he killeda bunch of ku Klux Klan leaders too, are you gonna say that had something to do with Lucifers cage?



> Don't be a deceitful ignorant obnoxous troll.



Yea thats cute trying to use big words but your not making any sence. your the one trolling here brah. im done responding to your nonsensical points.


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## LordFalcon (May 17, 2012)

Look here brah, we don't go by opinions and what other posters say. Learn how to think for yourself. We go be feats, implications, and evidence. We go what was shown in the series. Got it? I provided it. You provided jack shit. You have no solid proof of your own. Nothing.

Michael and Lucifer are that f**king powerful. They are world ravagers. And so is God Cas. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to suggest that God Cas was beyond either Michael and Lucifer. Nothing. And I bet you can't provide any sheer evidence of that. 

God Cas cannot snap kill either Michael or Lucifer, like he did with Raphael. God Cas, Michael, and Lucifer are in the same tier.

Now go on with your head up your ass. Don't ever call me a troll, when you can't back up anything with solid evidence.


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## Gone (May 17, 2012)

LordFalcon said:


> Look here brah, we don't go by opinions and what other posters say. Learn how to think for yourself. *We go be feats, implications, and evidence. We go what was shown in the series.* Got it? I provided it. You provided jack shit. You have no solid proof of your own. Nothing.



And based on your arguments, fairy dust and things randomly pulled from ones ass. And for the record a lot of calcs and general power statistics used by posters here go by general gonsensus.

For example the God of Supernatural is probably omnipotent in his own universe. But around here hes only considered universal, or possibly multiversal. A lot of fictions dont set their characters up for fights like this or crossovers, so people around here do their own calcs. 

None of it is canon obviously, and nobody knows but the writers of these fictsions. But the general power level of characters is decided by general consensus of posters for purposes of these debates.



> Michael and Lucifer are that f**king powerful. They are world ravagers. And so is God Cas. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to suggest that God Cas was beyond either Michael and Lucifer. Nothing. And I bet you can't provide any sheer evidence of that.



Im gonna let that go for now, but you need to lurk more dude before comming around here blathering your ridiculas little theories like their facts.


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## Artful Lurker (May 17, 2012)

LordFalcon said:


> God Cas is either slightly stronger, weaker, or equal to Michael and Lucifer. It's an established fact that he is not beyond them.



He is beyond them for two reasons one he was unaffected by the angel blade which can kill archangels and he killed an archangel with a snap of his finger which is what archangels can only do to lesser beings and not other archangels


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## Gone (May 17, 2012)

Artful Lurker said:


> He is beyond them for two reasons one he was unaffected by the angel blade which can kill archangels and he killed an archangel with a snap of his finger which is what archangels can only do to lesser beings and not other archangels



He was also able to see through Sam and Deans angel cloacking, which even Michael couldnt do.


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## LordFalcon (May 17, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Im gonna let that go for now, but you need to lurk more dude before comming around here blathering your ridiculas little theories like their facts.



 prove to me that God Cas is beyond Michael and Lucifer. 

God Cas's quote is self explanatory for the reason I gave. You don't have any common sense.

You contradict yourself saying when he goes around killing KKK members and anybody else that "defies" him, then why not go kill Michael and Lucifer, who  ARE THE PRIMARY CAUSES OF THE APOCALYPSE, WHO ARE THE REASONS WHY HE BECAME A FALLEN ANGEL. Michael is on the *same side* as Raphael. There would be no reason for Michael to live unless God Cas isn't beyond him. Because Michael pose a threat to God Cas. Hence why he was locked in the cage, despite his Machiavellian ego and personality.

A fight between God Cas and Michael would result in the very apocalypse that Cas sacrificed everything to avoid. Got it? That's the primary reason why he wants Michael to be locked in there. Because Michael is none to pleased with Castiel for interfering and stopping his battle with Lucifer.

He is not going to finger snap kill Michael and Lucifer. There's no evidence to suggest this.

If God Cas had the power to kill them, he would never hesitate to do so.

Michael and Lucifer are far more powerful than Raphael and Gabriele. And so is God Cas. There is nothing to suggest that God Cas is beyond Michael and Lucifer. All three are in the same tier of power. Cas might be a couple of notches stronger than either, but not beyond them.

The burden of proof is on you. If you can't provide it, then don't disregard my assessment as ridiculous theories.

I have given feats and evidence from episodes and quotes. What have you done? Don't ever accuse me of talking out of my ass when you can't even back up your claims.

You need to go pull your head out of your ass.


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## Gone (May 17, 2012)

Like i said Im done responding to your nonsence. Your basing all of your argument on the fact that Cas decided not to open up the cage and kill them. And then ignoring actual evidence like him not being hurt by the angel blade, or being able to overcome angel cloacking. Then you come out with some bullshit reason like he has the leviathans immunity, but hes still protected from their poison goo...

No Im sorry dude you dont know what your talking about, and Im done slamming my head against a brick wall.


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## LordFalcon (May 17, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Like i said Im done responding to your nonsence. Your basing all of your argument on the fact that Cas decided not to open up the cage and kill them. And then ignoring actual evidence like him not being hurt by the angel blade, or being able to overcome angel cloacking. Then you come out with some bullshit reason like he has the leviathans immunity, but hes still protected from their poison goo...
> 
> No Im sorry dude you dont know what your talking about, and Im done slamming my head against a brick wall.



It was both poison and immunity as evidenced in 'Meet the New Boss' and 'Reading is Fundamental'. Notice that Edger was immune to the one mook low end angel's TK?!?!? Yeah, there's my proof right there. That's why God Cas was immune to the enochian sigils and the blades. Because an entire collective of leviathans are nestled inside him. What makes you think angel weaknesses matter when you have an entire species of leviathans in your system that have recently proved they are immune to angel powers?

I know exactly what I'm talking about. I proved my case.


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## Artful Lurker (May 17, 2012)

LordFalcon said:


> prove to me that God Cas is beyond Michael and Lucifer.
> 
> God Cas's quote is self explanatory for the reason I gave. You don't have any common sense.
> 
> ...



- Raphael, Michael and Lucifer have shown they don't need to physically battle with lesser beings and angels because they transcend them 

- Now when fighting each other they could not simply destroy each other like they do other angels because they do transcend each other

- But God Cas can kill archangels like they can kill normal angels because he transcends archangels


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## LordFalcon (May 17, 2012)

Artful Lurker said:


> - Raphael, Michael and Lucifer have shown they don't need to physically battle with lesser beings and angels because they transcend them
> 
> - Now when fighting each other they could not simply destroy each other like they do other angels because they do transcend each other
> 
> - But God Cas can kill archangels like they can kill normal angels because he transcends archangels



The Heavenly host wanted to mudstomp Lucifer to oblivion at all costs. If Raphael mattered at all. He and Michael would have double teamed Lucifer and killed him. Even if Raphael is weaker than Michael, it still would have mattered.

But since Raphael wouldn't bother getting involved in the apocalypse, it means that Michael and Lucifer are beyond Raphael and Gabriele as well. Castiel said to Dean that Michael is far more powerful than Raphael.

Gabriele, in his true vessel and full power, with all his reality warping and temporal skills wouldn't even bother using his powers against a severely weakened Lucifer in a deteriorating meat suit. Lucifer didn't want to kill him. pleading and begging him to reconsider. But had no choice but to kill Gabe with his own attack against him. 

Gabriele couldn't override the spell of Kali placed on Dean and Sam. And he couldn't overpower the combined pagan god squad. Evidenced by his threats to Dean for exposing him to them. Guess what Lucifer did? In his weakened state in a temporary deteriorating meat suit, Lucifer overridden the pagan gods powers and he overpowered and killed all of them except for Kali who was spared by Gabriele's interference.

Now imagine Lucifer in his Sam condom, he would finger snap Gabriel if he wanted to.

The two eldest archangels transcend the two youngest archangels. Even though all four are archangels, there is a wide gap between Mike/Lucy and Raph/Gabe.

Even though I called him God Cas. He wasn't really God obviously. He was clearly in way over his head. He was a mutated angel on the same tier with Michael and Lucifer clearly evidenced by his statement to Crowley to guard the cage.


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## Gone (May 17, 2012)

Actually heaven wanted to follow what they thought was gods plan and adhere to the prophecy, which involved Michael fighting Lucifer. Not stomping him at all cost.


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## Artful Lurker (May 17, 2012)

LordFalcon said:


> The Heavenly host wanted to mudstomp Lucifer to oblivion at all costs.



No he wanted to follow Gods plan and kill Lucifer in a one on one. That's why Dean or anyone else was not part of the "story" because it was meant to be a one on one. 



LordFalcon said:


> If Raphael mattered at all. He and Michael would have double teamed Lucifer and killed him. Even if Raphael is weaker than Michael, it still would have mattered.



Raphael obviously did matter and if he joined Michael Lucifer would get stomped but he didn't join the fight for the same reason Lucifer didn't order Death to kill Michael, it was a one on one fight.



LordFalcon said:


> But since Raphael wouldn't bother getting involved in the apocalypse, it means that Michael and Lucifer are beyond Raphael and Gabriele as well.



No it means Raphael is following the Gods script.



LordFalcon said:


> Castiel said to Dean that Michael is far more powerful than Raphael.



When?



LordFalcon said:


> Gabriele, in his true vessel and full power, with all his reality warping and temporal skills wouldn't even bother using his powers against a severely weakened Lucifer in a deteriorating meat suit. Lucifer didn't want to kill him. pleading and begging him to reconsider. But had no choice but to kill Gabe with his own attack against him.
> 
> Your funny
> 
> ...


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## Shoddragon (May 17, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Guess were just gonna ignore the actual thread I made for this :/
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. he kinda banished raph for a bit. he didn't "one shot him".

2. um.... yea they would have. this was stated dude. roasting the planet as a side effect seems to imply killing most of the things on earth.

3.no.... because if michael fought lucifer and one he'd create paradise. the creation of paradise seems better than lucifer simply getting away with assfucking earth forever, no?

4. you're kidding right? Kali specifically stated gabriel's weapon to be an archangel blade. you can't possibly sit here and try to tell people every single angel blade is exactly the same. that's outright ludicrous. it was flat out shown that archangels are significantly above normal angels in every single way ( except certain weaknesses like the flame created by igniting the jerusalem oil). why would angels be allowed weapons that can kill archangels? that's just silly. mind you Cas could have also not been affected because being a mutated angel made the blade not work on him because he is too different. or maybe it was the leviathans that were in him. who knows.

5. I have...... the fact that lucifer and michael have better powerscaling and Cas didn't want michael or lucifer released from the cage.


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## Lord Genome (May 17, 2012)

Cas said Michael is far stronger than Raphael in "Free to Be You and Me" IIRC. They were in the hospital with Raphaels vessel



Ryjacork said:


> There has never been anything to implicate that there is any difference between the archangel blades and the normal ones, idk where your even getting that from.
> 
> 
> 
> You still havnt shown anything to back up this position.


Im not positive on this since its been a while since ive seen the episode, but Gabriel said that an archangel blade is the only thing that can kill one, so i dont see why a normal blade would be able to


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## Ulti (May 17, 2012)

> INT. HOSPITAL – DAY
> DONNIE is sitting in a wheelchair, catatonic. DEAN and CASTIEL observe him from the hallway window.
> DEAN
> I take it that's not Raphael anymore.
> ...



Link removed)

Yeah Michael>>>Raphael.


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## LordFalcon (May 17, 2012)

Artful Lurker said:


> No he wanted to follow Gods plan and kill Lucifer in a one on one. That's why Dean or anyone else was not part of the "story" because it was meant to be a one on one.



What the hell are you talking about? That makes no sense at all. 

Did you watch season 5? Do you know the major plot and premise of it all? God left earth and didn't give two shits about the angels plan. Raphael confirmed it. God was on earth because he wanted his greatest creation which was humanity to win because humans have free will. God doesn't give a flying f**k about any plan. He never made one or any script. Dean said no to Michael proving he can chose his own destiny. In the end Humanity represented by the Winchesters have won it all. Because of free will and the right to choose their own destiny. Michael, Lucifer and Raphael were thwarted. And God doesn't give two shits. Drop this dumb God's plan with heaven. He wanted nothing to do with the angels. He's on humanity's side and so is Gabriele, who wanted nothing to do with his brothers and flat out said he's on humanity's side. God wanted the Winchesters to form their own plan to defend the earth. He helped them directly and indirectly.


> Raphael obviously did matter and if he joined Michael Lucifer would get stomped but he didn't join the fight for the same reason Lucifer didn't order Death to kill Michael, it was a one on one fight.



Already answered that above. There is no such thing. Only Michael was stronger than Lucifer. Every angel including the two youngest archangels was absolutely irrelevent. You are wrong. I'm not going to repeat myself again.

The Host wanted to roflstomp Lucifer's ass. If any of them were of any relevance they would have joined Michael to dogpile him. But that isn't the case. Zacariah confirmed it saying Lucifer is stronger beyond their imagination, that only Michael can stop him.

WHY ELSE DID THEY MAKE SUCH A HUGE DEAL IN GETTING DEAN TO SAY YES? It wasn't because of some stupid insipid plan. It was because Michael was literally the only one to stop him. That's why.



> No it means Raphael is following the Gods script.



Um, no. Not according to him. You must have watched some retconned version. According to the show, I don't think so. Raphael believed God was dead. And Michael "thought" he followed Gods script. Michael thinks it was inevitable and free will is an illusion. Now how did that go? That's right, Dean SAID NO. God secretly didn't care about their plan. He never made one with them. That is one of the major themes of season 5. And proof is the ending finale.

Michael is surely devastated for having such blind faith in his 'father' God. Look what happened to him. He's in the cage in a vessel that was not destined to be his according to him.



> When?



In the hospital where Cas and Dean were visiting Donnie's drooling mess of a body.



> Your funny



prove otherwise? or concede. 



> That spell would have worked on Lucifer, just because someone gets bound does not mean they are weaker than the binder.


Now your funny. 

He overridden their ability to teleport out. He overridden Kali's blood spell. Pagan magic won't work on Lucifer. If they knew it would've worked they would have planned ahead. Like they meticulously did with the building of the hotel, the rainstorm, and even getting the winchesters there. All was carefully planned ahead. They're Gods after all. You think it would be that easy to perform some spell on him? Lucifer was that Damn powerful.



> No he would have to physically fight because they are very close in power



Not according to the facts of the show. Totally wrong. Again you don't pay attention to detail. I have. I explained everything on why. And I'm not going to do it again.



> No there is not, if that was the case Lucifer would have finger snapped Gabe or rendered him powerless



I explained why in my previous posts. Did you even bother reading it? Did you even watch the episode? I basically gave a summary of what happened. 

I'm not going to explain that again. You are wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt.




> - Angel lore didn't apply to him
> - Angel blades couldn't kill him
> - Killed an archangel like fodder



Because he is a mutated angel with leviathans in him. I have my reasons and I backed them up with feats from the episodes. Prove to me that souls provide immunity. He killed the youngest archangel who was irrelevant to Michael and Lucifer to begin with in the apocalypse.


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