# What makes you believe Minato and Tobirama are Mid/High kage level?



## Architect (Mar 8, 2018)

*FTG?*
Minato's only offensive feats with it are tricking young Obito with FTG v2 and getting behind bullrushing Ay (which would basically achieve nothing).
Anyone who doesn't witlessly charges at the opponent and whose intellectual ablilities are not lower than Bee's and who also has not bad reaction wouldn't see FTG as much of a threat.
Tobirama killed Izuna via Hiraishingiri under unknown circumstances. He also TP-ed to the seal on Obito placed by his clone, which most probably would got poofed before it could do anything, if it was alive Tobirama.

Indeed, Minato's FTG barrier based defence is impressive when it comes to protecting others, but I don't see what else could it give personally to him what self-teleportation couldn't, given it requires hand seals.

Maybe *speed*?
If we take closer look at ET Hokages' shunshin speed, the picture is that 1st=2nd=3rd and Minato is somewhat faster than them. As long as the time advantage Minato gained while crossing the whole distance between Konoha and the battlefield was the result of overtaking in every shunshin jump it's hard to say by what amount Minato is faster.

Have we seen Hiruzen speedblitzing anyone? Orochimaru? Would Tobirama speedblitz someone of Orochimaru level reaction and above? I don't think so.

As to Minato, he haven't shunshin blitzed anyone either. Maybe some chunin people during Third Shinobi War I forgot about. At best.

We know literally nothing about Minato's and Tobirama's *base (foot) speed*, but I don't see a reason to put them higher than Gai(Kakashi) or Itachi.

And the last part Minato and Tobirama are asessed and distinguished by:
*Rasengan* and *Gamabunta* on Minato's side and *Suiton Cutter* with* ET* on Tobirama's.
FTG and rasengan combination isn't bad, but it's still can be dodged and in cases it can't be dodged, most of the opponents from Mid-Kage Tier or around would counter it.

Ay and Kakuzu would ignore it, Hokage Kakashi and Sasuke by Raikiri&Shiden/Chidori&Chidori Nagashi (and Susanoo and Enton), Hiruzen would block it with adamantine staff, Bee would poke it with raiton tanto and so on, Jiraiya would negate it with his own rasengan.
And Gamabunta is a walking meatball who in coordination with another two meetballs missed while striking Chikushodo and Tendo and let them to get onto him.

Tobirama's *water cutter* is the only thing that is actually good about him.
About *ET*. It's basically a prep, but okay. It's good for distraction in combination with FTG. But I think many people are overestimating his explosive technique. Infinite explosion won't be infinite, unless you think Tobirama's minions can use the technique on their own, because Tobirama is going to be left without chakra if he decides to make explosive tags himself. Plus, he stated that jutsu is applicable only when he himself is ET.

So, tell me, why do you think FTG-Hokages are so powerful?


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## Kisame (Mar 8, 2018)

What are Minato's in-battle speed feats in base?

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## Shazam (Mar 8, 2018)

Architect said:


> *FTG?*
> Minato's only offensive feats with it are tricking young Obito with FTG v2



Minato was literally getting warped by a jutsu he had no knowledge on, and was able to escape certain death in a instant. Then, proceeded to defeat Teen Obito on the second exchange. 

Name 1 character whose not high kage tier that can do that....

There's your answer


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## Kisame (Mar 8, 2018)

jnikools said:


> Minato was literally getting warped by a jutsu he had no knowledge on, and was able to escape certain death in a instant. Then, proceeded to defeat Teen Obito on the second exchange.
> 
> Name 1 character whose not high kage tier that can do that....
> 
> There's your answer


You argue that Minato was a good counter to Obito though...


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## Shazam (Mar 8, 2018)

Shark said:


> You argue that Minato was a good counter to Obito though...



And I would argue that there are counters to be found everywhere in the series. So it shouldn't take away the level of said feat.


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## Architect (Mar 8, 2018)

jnikools said:


> Minato was literally getting warped by a jutsu he had no knowledge on, and was able to escape certain death in a instant. Then, proceeded to defeat Teen Obito on the second exchange.
> 
> Name 1 character whose not high kage tier that can do that....
> 
> There's your answer


Hokage Kakashi/Sasuke/Probably Konan.
Also, Kakashi can dodge most of the jutsus by hiding underground. I don't see people saying he is tiers higher because of that.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 8, 2018)

Minato...

Fought A and B 2v1 several times with all of them ending in a draw, would have killed A in their first fight in less than a second without B.

Defeated Obito effortlessly after being ambushed, while dealing with the Kyuubi.

Stopped Kyuubi.

Useful against Juubito.

Won his country a war.


From statements...

Minato had Jiraiya admit inferiority.

Kakashi considered him the greatest he had ever seen.

He also took Hiruzen’s job, and Hiruzen was still stronger than Orochimaru at that point.


Just looking at it obviously...

Minato knew two different S ranked Jutsu, had a version of Sage Mode, had large enough chakra to use Sage Mode, and had the best known summoning contract. He held the Hokage position which is the most prestigious position in the Ninja world.




Tobirama was dead long enough that many of his accomplishments are unknown. But we do know...

Tobirama killed someone who mastered an MS.

Tobirama was at one point a peer to Madara.

Tobirama proved useful against Juubito.

Tobirama tagged Rinnegan Madara.


Tobirama was dead long enough that almost not statements exist about his general level. But we know that he...

Invented two different S ranked techniques, invented Kage Bunshin, was regarded as the greatest Suiton user in the world, is one of the only three non God tiers to have all seven release types, has an unbelievably stronger explosive technique, was regarded as the fastest man in the world, and likely has immense chakra reserves and good physical strength given he is a Senju. This is while also holding the most prestigious position in the world as Hokage.



If you read the entire series and don’t believe Minato and Tobirama are High Kage, then lol.

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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 8, 2018)

Architect said:


> Hokage Kakashi/Sasuke/Probably Konan.
> Also, Kakashi can dodge most of the jutsus by hiding underground. I don't see people saying he is tiers higher because of that.


Pakkun and Genin Naruto have the ability to hide underground. Most be able to defeat Obito.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Mar 8, 2018)

Architect said:


> Hokage Kakashi



Seriously ? Hokage (No Sharingan) Kakashi is getting shit on by Teen Obito low diff



Architect said:


> /Sasuke/



What version of Sasuke that isn't High Kage tier are you talking about could pull of what Minato did against Obito with no knowledge of Kamui ?



Architect said:


> Probably Konan.
> Also, Kakashi can dodge most of the jutsus by hiding underground. I don't see people saying he is tiers higher because of that.



Sorry but Konan isn't beating anything greater than low kage tier without prep

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## Kisame (Mar 8, 2018)

jnikools said:


> And I would argue that there are counters to be found everywhere in the series. So it shouldn't take away the level of said feat.


Kakashi with Kamui is even a better counter than Minato though...


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## Architect (Mar 8, 2018)

jnikools said:


> Seriously ? Hokage (No Sharingan) Kakashi is getting shit on by Teen Obito low diff


gets paralyzed by shiden.


jnikools said:


> What version of Sasuke that isn't High Kage tier are you talking about could pull of what Minato did against Obito with no knowledge of Kamui ?


Gets paralyzed by chidori nagashi.


jnikools said:


> Sorry but Konan isn't beating anything greater than low kage tier without prep


she stopped Obito from absorbing her even before she revealed her ocean. We would never know whether she could do that without knowledge, though.


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## Architect (Mar 8, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Pakkun and Genin Naruto have the ability to hide underground. Most be able to defeat Obito.


I never said Kakashi would be able to escape Kamui at the stage of being sucked Minato was in, with Hiding like a mole jutsu, nor did I say he would win via it. Don't twist my words.


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## hysoka uchiha (Mar 8, 2018)

they certainly fell short of meeting their expectations Minato was supposed to be this monster that trades blows with the Kyuubi and he ended up just being the perfect counter for Obito, and a teleporter at large.

Tobirama was just a dirty mouth who shat on any endearment generated by his first appearance.

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## Crow (Mar 8, 2018)

Because Minato was trolling a young AB combo. 
Because Minato transported a whole Bijuudama casually.
Because of Minato's Boss summons and sage mode. 
Because of FTG and Rasengan.
Because he took down 1000 ninja's in an instant. 

Tobirama invented the Shadow Clone Jutsu, Edo Tensei, and was a water release master, and a genius to boot.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Stonaem (Mar 9, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:
			
		

> Tobirama killed a blind man


A question popped into my mind recently:
1. Izuna died against Tobirama
2. Izuna gave his eyes to a sick Madara
Therefore:
3. Izuna was blind when he fought Tobirama, yet Tobirama still had to rely on a completely new technique, his most powerful yet, to kill Izuna

Help me out here

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## hbcaptain (Mar 9, 2018)

Mulitple Kage level fighters, Kakashi, Jiraya and Ei tought that Minato was never surpassed. Suigetsu said that the four first Hokage are the strongest zombies, the 1st fanbook and the 4th Databook said that the Hokage is the top of the world, the top of everything, the masters of ninjutsu and world-leading shinobis.
So yeah, Kishi gave the first Hokages enough portrayl so that no other Kage comes close to them in terms of strengh.

Featwise, Minato fought Kumogakure's strongest tag team multiple times in the past, one of them was a solid Kage level figher and he was in his prime and the other one was already a perfect Jinchuriki (ie: 4th Databook), furthermore, Bee was trembiling with shock by simply hearing Minato's name, meaning that his strengh was something else.

In terms of Jutsu, Minato can use both a godlike speed that's equal or superior to Ei's max Shunshin and unorthodox moves thanks to Hiraishin's flexibility (level 2, RSCK, hidden tags, etc). Furhtermore he has an extreme intelligence, comparable to Shikamaru's, extremely high level Fuinjutsu such as Hakke Fuin, a barrier strong enough to hold Kurama (if he has enough chakra) and a great versatily in terms of offense thanks to the multiple abilities he can use through toad summons.

In Tobirama's case, he treated Oro as a kid despite knowing how strong he is, Madara once respected his strengh and the simple fact Kishi showing characters such as Minato, Oro or Hiruzen being pressured by his chakra levels is more than enough to respect as one of the most powerful Kage in history.
And just like Minato, he has a great verstatiliy on top of Hiraishin, coming from Gojo to Suiton to soul based techniques, his aresenal and portrayal is more than enough to give the edge, throught a low diff win, against every other Kage bar the 4 first Hokage.

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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 9, 2018)

Silnaem said:


> A question popped into my mind recently:
> 1. Izuna died against Tobirama
> 2. Izuna gave his eyes to a sick Madara
> Therefore:
> ...


What’s the question?


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## Stonaem (Mar 9, 2018)

Am I right to say that 


Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> What’s the question?


Tobi killed a blind man?


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 9, 2018)

Silnaem said:


> Am I right to say that
> 
> Tobi killed a blind man?


We have seen Itachi and Sasuke fighting blind, and they were still extremely strong, easily taking on Kage level opponents. I see no reason to think Izuna was different.


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## Stonaem (Mar 9, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> We have seen Itachi and Sasuke fighting blind, and they were still extremely strong, easily taking on Kage level opponents. I see no reason to think Izanagi was different.


By Izanagi you meant Izuna,yes?

Also, Sasuke and Itachi still had their eyes, Izuna gave his to Madara and Madara did not give his to Izuna, so Izuna was fighting w/o eyes t all, no?


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 9, 2018)

Silnaem said:


> By Izanagi you meant Izuna,yes?
> 
> Also, Sasuke and Itachi still had their eyes, Izuna gave his to Madara and Madara did not give his to Izuna, so Izuna was fighting w/o eyes t all, no?


Izuna still had his eyes. He gave them to Madara as he was dying.


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## Stonaem (Mar 9, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Izuna still had his eyes. He gave them to Madara as he was dying.


Source please


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## Kyu (Mar 9, 2018)

Shark said:


> What are Minato's in-battle speed feats in base?




Rescued his infant son before Obito could shank him.
Scooped up his bitch before Kurama crushed her(Kurama's speed at half capacity impressed SM Nardo & kept him on his toes)
Although, his movement speed mostly benefits from scaling - confirmed faster than Hokage 1-3 -> Madara nearly blitzing SM Nardo -> Madara/base Hashi's CQC exchanges suggesting they're comparable in speed -> logical conclusion: Minato being capable of replicating

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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 9, 2018)

Silnaem said:


> Source please


See chapter 624. Izuna still has his eyes after being given his mortal injury from Tobirama.


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## Stonaem (Mar 9, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> See chapter 624. Izuna still has his eyes after being given his mortal injury from Tobirama.


Didn't he give themcto Madara while they were in their room, or is that anime filler?


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## Architect (Mar 9, 2018)

Knight of Chaos said:


> Because Minato was trolling a young AB combo.
> Because Minato transported a whole Bijuudama casually.
> Because of Minato's Boss summons and sage mode.
> Because of FTG and Rasengan.
> ...


Oh, Minato wins most of the fights here via "trolling a young AB combo", I got it.
Hmm, Minato turns every opponent into bijudama and wins by casually BFR-ing them
Minato appeals to Gato, who hires Akatsuki to decimate Minato's opponents, while Minato becomes a hermit.
Minato and Tobirama shows their patent of creating these techniques to their opponents, they become ashamed they are not as inventive and commit suicide. 

I got it now, why Minato and Tobirama is considered so strong!

Seriously, nothing besides "Because he took down 1000 ninja's in an instant." is really helpful. And what is the instance he happened to one shot 1k shinobi in?

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## Architect (Mar 9, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> Minato fought Kumogakure's strongest tag team *multiple times* in the past


did he?


hbcaptain said:


> was a solid Kage level figher and he *was in his prime*





hbcaptain said:


> Minato can use both a godlike speed that's* equal or superior* to Ei's max Shunshin


That's how you make up stories make your Minato stronger than he is. Learn, people!


hbcaptain said:


> extreme intelligence, comparable to Shikamaru's


what?
Overall, It's clear to me now Minato and Tobirama are a walking HYPE itself. And they doesn't really have much besides the stories people make up and want to believe in.

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## Architect (Mar 9, 2018)

Kyu said:


> Rescued his infant son before Obito could shank him.


something base Naruto could do too.
Shanking Naruto wasn't Obito's aim.


Kyu said:


> Madara nearly blitzing _tired_ SM Nardo


DO *SM* Madara really fits in your logical sequence?


Kyu said:


> Minato being capable of replicating


That probably happened too when Sasuke took out countless number of shinobi of sound by himself.


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## Architect (Mar 9, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> ie: Minato's profil in the 4th Databook
> So it comes that what you actually called stories are true.


I didn't call their multiple encounters a story.


hbcaptain said:


> incredible feats that no other Kage is capable off so...


I'm not arguing Minato isn't good at surviving, protecting others or schooling youth, but how does that make him strong - beats me.


hbcaptain said:


> Maybe, something such as Deidara's explosions or Kisame's AOE might look strong but it simply isn't much when they're up against mid Kage level fighters and above.


way better than Minato's output.

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## hbcaptain (Mar 9, 2018)

Architect said:


> I didn't call their multiple encounters a story.


So what did you call a story ?



Architect said:


> I'm not arguing Minato isn't good at surviving, protecting others or schooling youth, but how does that make him strong - beats me.


KA Obito was already "far" stronger than any other Kage than the first four Hokage being by hype or feats. KB never fought him alone otherwise he would've being dead long ago although he was already a PJ and Ei was in his prime, notably stronger than his old KS or War Arc version.



Architect said:


> way better than Minato's output.


Minato can kill both of them in matter of seconds, he can teleport giantific Juubi's TBB which can wipe the ass of the entier Akatsuki or most of its members, he dealt with a Full Kurama and can defeat 1/2 of it without using RDS, all of these are completly out of range of some low Kage charachters whose feats are looked on with a microscope and made big whilst it's not even impressive to begin with.


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## Architect (Mar 9, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> So what did you call a story ?


the ones related to their hype.


hbcaptain said:


> KA Obito was already "far" stronger than any other Kage than the first four Hokage being by hype or feats.


Well, without knowledge, Obito has chances even against flying Onoki, but yeah, surviving a warp due to matchup and even tricking Obito =/= beating others. His feats are not that relevant ouside that particular fight. Yes, he would escape most of the attacks and he would trick someone who is inexperienced and is in a haste, but that's all.


hbcaptain said:


> Minato can kill both of them in matter of seconds


He would likely beat Deidara at a close-mid distance, assuming it's not Deidara's clone and he isn't on his bird/dragon. But that's all.


hbcaptain said:


> , he can teleport giantific Juubi's TBB which can wipe the ass of the entier Akatsuki or most of its members


Juubi and Minato>Akatsuki. Mkay.


hbcaptain said:


> he dealt with a Full Kurama and can defeat 1/2 of it without using RDS


By dealt you meant protected village from TBB and by defeated you meant evaded him?


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## Serene Grace (Mar 9, 2018)

Now that have a week off school I plan on making a Tobirama thread, in attempt to change or swift the views people have on him.

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## Kyu (Mar 9, 2018)

Architect said:


> Shanking Naruto wasn't Obito's aim.


Yes, I'm sure Obito planned on balancing the infant he threw into the air on his kunai.


Architect said:


> DO *SM* Madara really fits in your logical sequence?




He stole Hashirama's SM *after *sending Nardo & Sai on their ass.
There was no sign of fatigue from Nardo. SM didn't fizzle out and he was clearly still ready to go after throwing COFRS.



Architect said:


> That probably happened too when Sasuke took out countless number of shinobi of sound by himself.


Wut?

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## Architect (Mar 10, 2018)

Kyu said:


> Yes, I'm sure Obito planned on balancing the infant he threw into the air on his kunai.


What would he achieve by killing Naruto? Nothing. The whole move was to make Minato leave the cave and Obito accomplished that.


Kyu said:


> He stole Hashirama's SM *after *sending Nardo & Sai on their ass.


I reread that instance and what you said is true.


Kyu said:


> There was no sign of fatigue from Nardo. SM didn't fizzle out and he was clearly still ready to go after throwing COFRS.


He fought for very long. He looked pretty tired    prior to blocking Madara's punch.
Fatigue is not only about having chakra.

Madara  there.
Madara said Tobirama was called the fastest shinobi of his time. He apparently wasn't referring to his shunshin speed, as it is on par with Hashirama's. And even more, Hashirama's shunshin probably should be even faster in SM. Then we have either base legs speed or FTG. That means, Madara shunshin could be faster than Tobirama's.
If the speed of the first three kages could be really scaled from this moment, that would mean Hiruzen also could nearly blitz non tired (as you claim) SM Naruto (and moreover Part I Orochimaru) and alive base Madara could do the same to SM Hashirama, which doesn't really make much sense.
And lastly, Madara beat Hashirama, so...


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## hbcaptain (Mar 10, 2018)

Architect said:


> the ones related to their hype.


hype = canon
And Minato/Tobirama's feat are also incredible.



Architect said:


> Well, without knowledge, Obito has chances even against flying Onoki, but yeah, surviving a warp due to matchup and even tricking Obito =/= beating others. His feats are not that relevant ouside that particular fight. Yes, he would escape most of the attacks and he would trick someone who is inexperienced and is in a haste, but that's all.


Knowledge or not, Obito decimates 90% of the Kage just by himself, both his defense and offense is absolute, which goes on par with Minato's statement, Naruto needs to completly master the Kyubi he gave him in order to stand a chance against him.
In other words, he is insanely powerful.



Architect said:


> He would likely beat Deidara at a close-mid distance, assuming it's not Deidara's clone and he isn't on his bird/dragon. But that's all


Everyone use clones and with "the clones argument" you can make Konohamaru beat a Kage, the easy argument as always.
In other hands, Minato's QI far surpasses Deidara's and he is also more experienced, so...
Arsenal wise, Minato can fight in every range thanks to Hiraishin, thus he can fodderizes the likes of Deidara in fragment of seconds.



Architect said:


> Juubi and Minato>Akatsuki. Mkay.


I never said so.
I just gave you an exemple of one of insanly impressive feats in Minato's favor that even the whole Akatsuki can't achieve. So, giving your insanely ridiculous way of thinking "only impressive looking feats are allowed" then you shouldn't be surprised with such a thing especially that you think characters as weak as Deidara, Sasori and so on are on par with High Kages such as Minato or Tobirama.



Architect said:


> By dealt you meant protected village from TBB and by defeated you meant evaded him?


Nah, he can immobilize him with Yatai Kuzushi or chakra barrier and then seals him off with Hakke Fuin.
By the way no Akatsuki duo or trio has a chance fighting something as strong as 1/2 Kurama.


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## Architect (Mar 10, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> hype = canon


Hype must be supported by feats, abilities and tecniques. Databook says Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage...
You mentioned info from the 4th databook. Which is not 100% accurate (as well as others), but I would believe it over the others, since it's the last DB and almost doesn't contain an outdated data.
So, will you post anything from it?

I already wrote why they aren't that impressive of impractical to rate boost him higher in tiers.



hbcaptain said:


> Everyone use clones and with "the clones argument" you can make Konohamaru beat a Kage, the easy argument as always.


I never implied Deidara would win with clones. And no, not everyone. But Deidara does it actively. He likes to use clay clones while hiding underground/inside of clay creatures.


hbcaptain said:


> Knowledge or not, Obito decimates 90% of the Kage just by himself, both his defense and offense is absolute, which goes on par with Minato's statement,


We are talking about Obito who lost arms against Danzo's bodyguards and Konan?


hbcaptain said:


> Arsenal wise, Minato can fight in every range thanks to Hiraishin, thus he can fodderizes the likes of Deidara in fragment of seconds.


Lol at Minato throwing rrpratedly throeing kunai in the air and teleporting and Deidara doing nothing.


hbcaptain said:


> , Minato's QI far surpasses Deidara's


Lol



hbcaptain said:


> I never said so.
> I just gave you an exemple of one of insanly impressive feats in Minato's favor that even the whole Akatsuki can't achieve. So, giving your insanely ridiculous way of thinking "only impressive looking feats are allowed" then you shouldn't be surprised with such a thing


Not just impressive. Impressive offensive feats. 
In a fight, especially ftg barrier would be mostly of no more use than regular ftg or 3KK's sand, Kisame's Daikodan or Deidara's flight, if we are not speaking about juubi.


hbcaptain said:


> Deidara, Sasori and so on are on par with High Kages such as Minato or Tobirama.


Yes, akatsuki are stronger.



hbcaptain said:


> Nah, he can immobilize him with Yatai Kuzushi or chakra barrier and then seals him off with Hakke Fuin.


At first you say he handled and defeated kyubi without SF, now you are specualting on what he could or not. Yeah, cool. Keep going.
No, ain't beating Kurama with this.


hbcaptain said:


> By the way no Akatsuki duo or trio has a chance fighting something as strong as 1/2 Kurama


Kisame alone is enough to challenge him.

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## hbcaptain (Mar 10, 2018)

Architect said:


> Hype must be supported by feats, abilities and tecniques. Databook says Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage...
> You mentioned info from the 4th databook. Which is not 100% accurate (as well as others), but I would believe it over the others, since it's the last DB and almost doesn't contain an outdated data.
> So, will you post anything from it?


DB1 to DB4, and also manga's statement untile the "end", all of these support the fact that the 4 first Hokage are far above the others.
Giving, some outlier or outdated statements doesn't change anything about it.
I will add that "both" hype and feats are inconsistant.
Moreover, the Hokage's feats (bar Hiruzen) are all amazing, far better than all Akatsuki members bar Dojutsu trio.



> I already wrote why they aren't that impressive of impractical to rate boost him higher in tiers.


They can perform equally or better than multiple Kage level or Akatsuki class shinobis in most situations, meaning they are far stronger than them.



> I never implied Deidara would win with clones. And no, not everyone. But Deidara does it actively. He likes to use clay clones while hiding underground/inside of clay creatures.


This is a basic strategy used by all existing ninja who master earth release, thus Minato will simply see through it thanks to his insane QI and higher battle experience and attack in accordance to this.



> We are talking about Obito who lost arms against Danzo's bodyguards and Konan?


Not like he cares about losing an arm, also I highly doubt most of other Kage are better than Danzo's bodyguards in terms of CQC and attacking cooperation. So, if you add to this that all their AOE, high DC ninjutsu are completly useless against the absolute defense and offense (right Kamui) then they're not performing any better.

If you go by "they're mere bodyguards", then it only means you contradict yourself since you only base your whole argumentation on feats. 



> Lol at Minato throwing rrpratedly throeing kunai in the air and teleporting and Deidara doing nothing.


Nah, since Deidara can't handle Minato's speed nor can he see through his schemes.



> Lol


Hahah, complaining about something as obvious as Minato being among the smartest people of the verse.



> Have you read topic's head? It's not just about the scale, it's about how character applicate it.
> In a fight, especially ftg barrier would be mostly of no more use than regular ftg or 3KK's sand, Kisame's Daikodan or Deidara's flight, if we are not speaking about juubi.


Nah, a S/T barrier can "neg" a lot of Jutsu which can casually "neg diff" Daikoudan, sand defense and so one. That's why the likes of Minato and Tobirama are multiple times stronger than some low Kage level fighters in most of situations.



> At first you say he handled and defeated kyubi without SF, now you are specualting on what he could or not. Yeah, cool. Keep going.
> No, ain't beating Kurama with this.


Minato can deal with 1/2 Kurama by himself and Hakke Fuin was canonically stated as a sealing technique strong enough to seal this version of the Kyubi.
So stop complaining about canon things.



> Kisame alone is enough to challenge him.


Hahahaha, the same one who was about to get one shotted by base Jiraya and who can't even see what heppens before .

Reactions: Winner 1


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## BlackHeartedImp (Mar 10, 2018)

Let me ask you a question. Who do YOU consider high kage?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Azula (Mar 10, 2018)

You understimate Rasengan's power, Minato's variant is quite bigger than the one Naruto uses which is merely palm sized.



Raikage starts bleeding with Sasuke's chidori which is only equal to a palm sized Rasengan.

MInato's is bigger by several times, it's bigger than a head and stronger than both of them and will severely injure Raikage.


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## Architect (Mar 10, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> DB1 to DB4, and also manga's statement untile the "end", all of these support the fact that the 4 first Hokage are far above the others.
> Giving, some outlier or outdated statements doesn't change anything about it.
> I will add that "both" hype and feats are inconsistant.


Then show me them.
IIRC, Hiruzen was told to be the strongest Hokage in both first DBs.


hbcaptain said:


> They can perform equally or better than multiple Kage level or Akatsuki class shinobis in most situations, meaning they are far stronger than them.


If that means they can defend themselves or others on par with high Kages and then sit there not being able to do much (or as much as high kages, if you want) against the enemy himself, then yes.


hbcaptain said:


> This is a basic strategy used by all existing ninja who master earth release


Haven't seen anything like that from Hiruzen, Kitsuchi or Kurotsuchi. Whatever, it's interesting how you change from everyone to every doton user.


hbcaptain said:


> to his insane QI and higher battle experience and attack in accordance to this.


Itachi/Nagato bought clone trick.
Tell another about his insane IQ.


hbcaptain said:


> Not like he cares about losing an arm


Like Obito chose to what lose and what not to lose.


hbcaptain said:


> Not like he cares about losing an arm, also I highly doubt most of other Kage are better than Danzo's bodyguards in terms of CQC and attacking cooperation. So, if you add to this that all their AOE, high DC ninjutsu are completly useless against the absolute defense and offense (right Kamui) then they're not performing any better.
> 
> If you go by "they're mere bodyguards", then it only means you contradict yourself since you only base your whole argumentation on feats.


The bodyguards are featless CQC skill wise. Cooperation wise - yes, thanks to which they managed to inject insects inside of Obito.
The best Obito could do again the one who is not featless is to take off his nunchaku.
Ays would react to him and give him Gai treatment. Kisame would merge with Samehada and detect Obito, swimming from him and making his sharks attack him, Moguragakure users would simply fall underground, Sasori would make stop him absorbing with an Iron sand/multiple puppet attacks from every side, Deidara would feed him his bombs and tear off his hand or something else, Kakuzu attacks him with threads and makes him turn intangible and etc.
They are not losing to warp or anything.


hbcaptain said:


> If you go by "they're mere bodyguards", then it only means you contradict yourself since you only base your whole argumentation on feats.


I tried to play your game and your reaction is pretty funny.


hbcaptain said:


> Nah, since Deidara can't handle Minato's speed nor can he see through his schemes.


While airborne? He would. What schemes? Are you saying Deidara with 4.5 in intelligence is dumber than young Bee?


hbcaptain said:


> Hahah, complaining about something as obvious as Minato being among the smartest people of the verse.





hbcaptain said:


> Hahah





hbcaptain said:


> Nah, a S/T barrier can "neg" a lot of Jutsu which can casually "neg diff" Daikoudan, sand defense and so one. That's why the likes of Minato and Tobirama are multiple times stronger than some low Kage level fighters in most of situations.


Doing so doesn't make up for his low attack output.


hbcaptain said:


> Minato can deal with 1/2 Kurama by himself and Hakke Fuin was canonically stated as a sealing technique strong enough to seal this version of the Kyubi.


okay


hbcaptain said:


> So stop complaining about canon things.


I laugh everytime you realize you wrote some BS and try to feed me something else.
You said he would deal with Kyubi, not 1/2 of Kyubi.


hbcaptain said:


> Hahahaha, the same one who was about to get one shotted by base Jiraya


and who is gonna eat Jiraiya in a WD as soon as they are outside of building and as soon as the Sannin hype bubbles pops.


hbcaptain said:


> before .


This is not Minato's level of *speed*. 
And Kisame wasn't facing the side Naruto came from.


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## Architect (Mar 10, 2018)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> Let me ask you a question. Who do YOU consider high kage?


A3, Onoki, Muu, Kisame, Gaara in the desert, probably Deidara without PIS, pre KS Sasuke (maybe), maybe Prime Hiruzen and by the most humble assession War Arc Kakashi.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Architect (Mar 10, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> You understimate Rasengan's power, Minato's variant is quite bigger than the one Naruto uses which is merely palm sized.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and that was only V1 Ay.


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 10, 2018)

This is some impressive downplay here, my friend. 
This reminds me of @Orochimaruwantsyourbody and the tailed beasts.

You even picked the very first person the manga tells you is strong a fact that almost every strong person in the manga reiterates , and a guy who is called Madara level _by Madara_ and called the "Fastest Shinobi" by him for your two.
Bravo!

Rasengan requires no seals and makes craters out of fools when hit. It is straight up the highest level of shape transformation in existence at the time of its creation. And it doesn't even cost much chakra like a Raikiri.
In a world where a jutsu that takes 42 seals is still something impressive to worry about from an elite Jonin, 0 seals is friggin amazing.
We even learn that Mifune is famous and feared because had seals don't work with him, and we get this info from the former most feared shinobi, Hanzo.
Trying to downplay it it silly, but somewhat common. 

Questioning Minato's speed is also funny, when even the fastest people in the manga tell you he is faster. 
He snatched Kakashi's dumb ass out of the way no diff vs a Iwa Jonin in the Gaiden, 
surrounded the Jubi in Kunai and BFR'ed a Jubi Dama before the other Kage could catch up to him.

Your assumption that everyone can just react to his speed is also incorrect. 
KCM Naruto litteraly blitzed Kisame to his face in his slowest form when he finally hit Minato's speed tier. On panel.
Do I assume Kisame has shitty reaction speed? Or that that's just another level of speed from what that level of Kage can handle?
Well, B says he can barely see that level of movements and he still gets the shakes from hearing Minato's name years later. 
And the much faster A says Minato can't be surpassed.
I'll just go ahead and believe the mountain of evidence that says his speed is a Kage level problem since actual Kage say so.

Gamabunta has survived several wars and fights with tailed beast, 0 people in the alliance have a comparable summon outside of three way deadlock members. That's not even a question.
Saying he couldn't beat a guy who has more DC than VotE at his fingertips is also kinda silly.

Tobirama is another weird one to doubt. 
Not many people have something that can stop several minutes of large explosions. Fewer can do it without being tagged by FTG. 
Trying to use prep arguments to down play ET has been silly for years as every shinobi in the verse gets ready for battle and once ET are ready they can be summoned when ever. As we see during the war. 
Being the fastest shinobi alive is also quite helpful.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 10, 2018)



Reactions: Like 2 | Lewd 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 10, 2018)



Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## hbcaptain (Mar 10, 2018)

Architect said:


> IIRC, Hiruzen was told to be the strongest Hokage in both first DBs.


I will requote myself :
"_Giving, some outlier or outdated statements doesn't change anything about it._"



Architect said:


> If that means they can defend themselves or others on par with high Kages and then sit there not being able to do much (or as much as high kages, if you want) against the enemy himself, then yes.


All the four first Hokage can defeat all the Kages without exception and all Akatsuki bar Dojutsu trio in which it's kinda debatable, they can also beat multiple low/mid Kage at once be it by hype or feats.



Architect said:


> The bodyguards are featless CQC skill wise. Cooperation wise - yes, thanks to which they managed to inject insects inside of Obito.


Ok, then based on their feats against Obito, they performed better than most of Kage would've performed since they fought someone insanely powerful of Obito's calibre.



Architect said:


> Ays would react to him and give him Gai treatment. Kisame would merge with Samehada and detect Obito, swimming from him and making his sharks attack him, Moguragakure users would simply fall underground, Sasori would make stop him absorbing with an Iron sand/multiple puppet attacks from every side, Deidara would feed him his bombs and tear off his hand or something else, Kakuzu attacks him with threads and makes him turn intangible and etc.


Terrible underestimation of the character to think some low ranked Kage level such as Kisame can survive more than one second against him.
-Sasori gets warped in one fragment of second before he can react, iron sand/multiple puppets are just lowly moveset with extremely slow reactions and attaacking speed in comparison
-Kakuzu is a tortule who can't even react to Tenten's banana fan whilst Atsui and Samui can, so lol about him being able to stand more than a fragment of second.



Architect said:


> Doing so doesn't make up for his low attack output.


No Atsuki can physically react to even his Shunshin bar Itachi&Obito let alone Hiraishin, so all of them get blitzed before they can react based on "feats".
You're terribly underrating his offense and how it's near impossible to handle.



Architect said:


> This is not Minato's level of *speed*.
> And Kisame wasn't facing the side Naruto came from.


Yamato talking about his speed : "t". So yeah, you're right this was a level of speed below Minato's lol.
And Kisame simply couldn't see anything just like all the shonbi arround him and that's why he was shocked.
As the plot, "feats" and portrayal suggest, Kisame will get killed in no time without even realising what's happening to him if he was up agaisnt someone of Minato's calibre.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Architect (Mar 10, 2018)

are there any more interesting filler moments?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 10, 2018)



Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## BlackHeartedImp (Mar 10, 2018)

Architect said:


> probably Deidara without PIS


And yet you go and low-ball the FTG users, who, without PIS, would logically just kill a lot of people before they can twitch.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 10, 2018)

@Architect 

From the sounds of it, you seem to have a hatred or bias against the FTG users.

Please confirm a few things for me before I decide you're not trolling 

Name 3 High Kage Tier Characters 
Name the Tier you believe Minato & Tobirama belonging too.


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 10, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Minato...
> 
> Fought A and B 2v1 several times with all of them ending in a draw, would have killed A in their first fight in less than a second without B.
> 
> ...


/Thread

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


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## Architect (Mar 10, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> I will requote myself :
> "_Giving, some outlier or outdated statements doesn't change anything about it._"


Well, it changes.
Hah, "Hokages this hokages that". Where is all of that?


hbcaptain said:


> All the four first Hokage can defeat all the Kages without exception and all Akatsuki bar Dojutsu trio in which it's kinda debatable, they can also beat multiple low/mid Kage at once be it by hype or feats.


Don't bring Hashirama/Hiruzen to say Minato/Tobirama beats anyone.


hbcaptain said:


> Ok, then based on their feats against Obito, they performed better than most of Kage would've performed since they fought someone insanely powerful of Obito's calibre.


That's some logic fallacy as long as we didn't see "most of the kages" fight Obito.


hbcaptain said:


> Terrible underestimation of the character to think some low ranked Kage level such as Kisame can survive more than one second against him.





hbcaptain said:


> -Sasori gets warped in one fragment of second before he can react, iron sand/multiple puppets are just lowly moveset with extremely slow reactions and attaacking speed in comparison


With knowledge? Yeah Sasori would do what I wrote.


hbcaptain said:


> -Kakuzu is a tortule who can't even react to Tenten's banana fan whilst Atsui and Samui can, so lol about him being able to stand more than a fragment of second.


he isn't a turtle. He shunshinblitzed Kakashi with sharingan. It was a cheapshot, but still impressive.


hbcaptain said:


> No Atsuki can physically react to even his Shunshin bar Itachi&Obito let alone Hiraishin, so all of them get blitzed before they can react based on "feats".



On what feats?


hbcaptain said:


> Yamato talking about his speed : "t". So yeah, you're right this was a level of speed below Minato's lol.
> And Kisame simply couldn't see anything just like all the shonbi arround him and that's why he was shocked.
> As the plot, "feats" and portrayal suggest, Kisame will get killed in no time without even realising what's happening to him if he was up agaisnt someone of Minato's calibre.


Bee outright compares Naruto's movements to teleportation jutsu. But Yamato realizes it was shunshin, not FTG and comments of Naruto's bad control, because Naruto hit the wall too hard. Yamato's statement has nothing to do with Minato's speed. Distinguishing the flashes you can't even see doesn't make any sense too.
He commented on how fast the strike was, but reacting to something that is linearly coming at you =/= reacting the way others did (or well, didn't).


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## Architect (Mar 10, 2018)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> And yet you go and low-ball the FTG users, who, without PIS, would logically just kill a lot of people before they can twitch.


I don't see any PIS about them, but Deidara's low altitude is PIS.


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 10, 2018)

My 2 cents on why Minato is a High tier monster...

Minatos Portrayal and Hype...

*"I believe that only you (stated to the protagonist) can surpass the Fourth Hokage."*
Stated by Kakashi, legendary copy ninja and Kage candidate several times over who had seen folks like Itachi in action

*"There was never a man that could surpass him (referring to minato) "*
Stated by the freaking arrogant as fuck A4...The fastest living Shinobi by MILES and Kage of a nation that should hate Konoha due to the Hyuuga incident AND Minato tooling A/B for years

*"That unrivaled strength"*
Stated by Kishi

*"Aw come on, everybody pales in comparison to the fourth lord. As a shinobi his capacity was unparalleled, a true one-of-a kind."*
Stated by Jman...A legendary Sannin...To Tsunade...Another Legendary Sannin

*"You deserve the title of Fourth Hokage..Managing to wound me and wrest the fox from my control in one move"*
Obito...A man who would go on to be untouchable for several hundred chapters of the manga, it took KCM naruto in conjunction with Killer Bee, Might Gai, and Kakashi to replicate Minatos solo performance...And they had knowledge on Kamui and a built in weakness they were able to exploit by having Kamuis other half...Minato had nether of these things and outperformed them in seconds...Not several chapters

*" I am proud of the unity of Iwagakure, although, we are proud we sent 1000 shinobi from our men, i hear that it took only one man from the hidden leaf, the yellow flash, to stop the invasion "*
Onoki after his nation got spanked by Minato

*"Minato had the sort of talent you only find once in a decade. We haven't had another genius like him since"*
Jman to Tsunade again

Rundown of his accomplishments...


...
Defeated Kamuis intangibility with no knowledge in seconds
Fastest Hokage
Mastered Sage Mode
Invented a Jutsu that was the pinnacle of Shape Manipulation 
Mastered the reaper death seal
Sealed 100% of Kurama away  while exhausted and stabbed

Reactions: Winner 5


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## Architect (Mar 10, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> @Architect
> 
> From the sounds of it, you seem to have a hatred or bias against the FTG users.
> 
> ...


Why would I have hatred towards characters?
Well, I don't like Tobirama's personality much, but that has nothing to do with assesment of his and Minato's powers.

1. I wrote above.
2. From low kage to entry mid-solid mid kage.


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 10, 2018)

Architect said:


> . From low kage to entry mid-solid mid kage.


A low Kage that several experienced Kage, and Kage levels swear to all that will listen that he is way beyond them?

Really?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Architect (Mar 10, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> manga tells you is strong a fact that almost every strong person in the manga reiterates





Hi no Ishi said:


> and a guy who is called Madara level _by Madara_ and called the "Fastest Shinobi" by him for your two.
> Bravo!


manga tells me his talent is unparalleled and his FTG is awesome.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Rasengan requires no seals and makes craters out of fools when hit. It is straight up the highest level of shape transformation in existence at the time of its creation. And it doesn't even cost much chakra like a Raikiri.
> In a world where a jutsu that takes 42 seals is still something impressive to worry about from an elite Jonin, 0 seals is friggin amazing.


Chidori Nagashi doesn't require handseals at all. Sasuke negs Minato.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Your assumption that everyone can just react to his speed is also incorrect.


Not everyone. Someone with reaction comparable to Deidara's or higher.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Your assumption that everyone can just react to his speed is also incorrect.
> KCM Naruto litteraly blitzed Kisame to his face in his slowest form when he finally hit Minato's speed tier. On panel.
> Do I assume Kisame has shitty reaction speed? Or that that's just another level of speed from what that level of Kage can handle?
> Well, B says he can barely see that level of movements and he still gets the shakes from hearing Minato's name years later.





> Bee outright compares Naruto's movements to teleportation jutsu. But Yamato realizes it was shunshin, not FTG and comments of Naruto's bad control, because Naruto hit the wall too hard. Yamato's statement has nothing to do with Minato's speed. Distinguishing the flashes you can't even see doesn't make any sense too.





Hi no Ishi said:


> Saying he couldn't beat a guy who has more DC than VotE at his fingertips is also kinda silly.


?


Hi no Ishi said:


> ET are ready they can be summoned when ever


yet we haven't seen any summon from *Tobirama* during the war. But you might be right here.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Not many people have something that can stop several minutes of large explosions. Fewer can do it without being tagged by FTG.


Konan needed 600 billion prepped exp tags to provide consecutive explosions lasting for 10 mins.
And you tell me Tobirama would last for more than tens of seconds before exhausting himself. And as he said, this technique is useful only while he himself in ET.


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## Serene Grace (Mar 10, 2018)

Architect said:


> getting behind bullrushing Ay


*Completely and utterly embarrassing him, forcing him to establish Minato as his superior*

Fixed that for you


Architect said:


> tricking young Obito with FTG v2


14 year old Obito shits on 90% of the mid kage class, go figure.



Architect said:


> e also TP-ed to the seal on Obito placed by his clone, which most probably would got poofed before it could do anything if it was alive Tobirama.


And? Why not reference Tobirama's feat of reacting to Juubito and ? A good chunk of the mid kage class can not do that hell even many high kages.



Architect said:


> Minato's FTG barrier based defence is impressive when it comes to protecting others, but I don't see what else could it give personally to him what self-teleportation couldn't


His barrier also allows him to throw said thing that entered the barrier back at his opponent. It not only serves as an amazing defense, but an amazing offense as well



Architect said:


> If we take closer look at ET Hokages' shunshin speed, the picture is that 1st=2nd=3rd


Tobirama's shunsin is not the same speed as Hashirama's, and old Hiruzen's (lol wut). Him arriving at the same time as the other hokages means jack shit really since dudes weren't racing or anything, by that same logic Jugo= EMS Sasuke in shunsin which we both know is horribly wrong.

Not to mention we have Madara who was Hashirama's physical equal stating that 



Architect said:


> *Rasengan* and *Gamabunta* on Minato's side and *Suiton Cutter* with* ET* on Tobirama's.
> FTG and rasengan combination isn't bad, but it's still can be dodged and in cases it can't be dodged, most of the opponents from Mid-Kage Tier or around would counter it.


No, they're both distinguished by decapitating your head off with a kunai or sword, given even the likes of Hashirama can be killed by a simple kunai, I don't see why that's much of a problem 

Anyways you talk about a lack of DC, yet you ignore Obito has even less DC than these guys yet you for some reason put him in a high regard am I right? 




Architect said:


> Anyone who doesn't witlessly charges at the opponent and whose intellectual ablilities are not lower than Bee's and who also has not bad reaction wouldn't see FTG as much of a threat.


It ain't that easy Homie

Sm Madara who already had knowledge of Tobirama's fighting style and utilization of FTG was still and probably would have if it wasn't for limbo to bail him out



Referencing his fight with Bee is pretty hilarious since Minato could have just stabbed him the moment he ported behind, instead of saying some irrelevant speech


Architect said:


> Hokage Kakashi and Sasuke by Raikiri&Shiden/Chidori&Chidori Nagashi


> implying that Hokage Kakashi or Hebi Sasuke would even have the body speed and reflexes to even land Raikri or use it stalemate Minato's rasengan when the former was reacting to and outmatching V2 Ay. Same dude that forced yah boy Sasuke to rely on his mental reactions as he couldn't visually perceive.

Nagashi?   You serious dude?

Rasengan tears that shit apart since it only has the elemental advantage but Nagashi is simple fucking
chidori streamimg 



Architect said:


> Infinite explosion won't be infinite, unless you think Tobirama's minions can use the technique on their own, because Tobirama is going to be left without chakra if he decides to make explosive tags himself. *Plus, he stated that jutsu is applicable only when he himself is ET.*


The ET's are used as Medium's for the explosions since Et's keep constantly regenerating the explosions are therefore infinite

Tobirama is the one denoting the explosions not the ET's.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 10, 2018)

Architect said:


> manga tells me his talent is unparalleled and his FTG is awesome.


Yes because those aren't great things lol.

You keep ignoring that this is the guy, who Obito, a monster trained by frickin Madara, says deserves the title of fourth Hokage. 
And A tells Naruto that he thought no one could surpass Minato.
A guy who B literally starts shaking at the thought of. 
The guy Jiraiya, said everyone looks bad next to?
The guy Kakashi thinks only Naruto surpass. 

Btw.


If for some reason the link does not work 
Type "Minato Databook 4" into Google and its the first image that comes up for me. 



Architect said:


> Chidori Nagashi doesn't require handseals at all. Sasuke negs Minato.


Even MS Sasuke can't perceive A who is slower than Minato by his own admission.
 Also lol at Chidori Nagashi actually hurting some one with the lightning affinity when it barely hurts people without it.

Not does it stop a kunai throw to the back of the head.


Architect said:


> Not everyone. Someone with reaction comparable to Deidara's or higher.


Deidara has great reaction feats like getting blood punched out his face by Naruto, and barely dodging no KI Sasuke even though he was a secondary target! Yay!

He is fast no doubt, but high reaction speed? Not really.


Architect said:


> ?



You trying to use Deva, a dude who waxed a large village in one go and can dodge Rasenshruiken to downplay Gamabunta lol. 


Architect said:


> yet we haven't seen any summon from *Tobirama* during the war. But you might be right here.


We have seen a lot of people do not do things as edo tensei right? 
Also we see Orochimaru do it as well with the first and second Hokage's. 
He didn't just kill the kids and do the set up in the roof top in front of Hiruzen did he?



Architect said:


> Konan needed 600 billion prepped exp tags to provide consecutive explosions lasting for 10 mins.
> And you tell me Tobirama would last for more than tens of seconds before exhausting himself


Do you not know how the jutsu works, My friend?

*Spoiler*: _Databook 4 translations_ 




*Ninjutsu*

A-rank; Offensive; Close-range

User: Senju Tobirama

"Relentlessly violent detonations of explosion tags
Reducing even tough armours to dust."

"Tags that summon more tags that then explode - a special explosion tag. The Second Hokage developed this for the purpose of combining it with “Edo Tensei”.Upon ACTIVATION, due to the devastating (terribly violent) explosions, it is highly probable that the jutsu-caster will be caught in it. If a live PERSON performs the technique, death is inevitable, for it is a blast technique that sacrifices one’s life (body).The scale of damage of this jutsu is a match to the size of the Susano’O!"

*(Tobirama vs SAGE Obito)*
The timing for the invocation (activation) of the jutsu is crucial.
A surprise attack will demonstrate absolute (certain, guranteed) results.

*(Gamakichi avoiding the blast radius)*
At the end of hitting the target (enemy), even if reduced to pieces of flesh (meat confetti), the explosions CONTINUE….
The thunderous roar of the explosions speaks for that attack’s brutality (severity).”

*First Appearance: *Volume 67, Chapter 639
*Anime Appearance:* Naruto Shippuden Episode 378






It summons explosive tags that summon other explosive tags. An he has ET use it because they just keep getting more chakra to summon more tags.


Architect said:


> And as he said, this technique is useful only while he himself in ET.


No it's just not something he should do with his own body while alive.
Madara says that's how Tobirama use to use Edo Tensei to clear battlefields remember? When he was chatting with Kabuto.


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## Architect (Mar 10, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> *Completely and utterly embarrassing him, forcing him to establish Minato as his superior*
> 
> Fixed that for you


and accomplishing nothing.


Serene Grace said:


> 14 year old Obito shits on 90% of the mid kage class, go figure.


No. I've been discussing this another guy above.


Serene Grace said:


> And? Why not reference Tobirama's feat of reacting to Juubito and tagging him multiple times? A good chunk of the mid kage class can not do that hell even many high kages.


because ET was the only thing that allowed him to react.


Serene Grace said:


> His barrier also allows him to throw said thing that entered the barrier back at his opponent.


what?


Serene Grace said:


> Tobirama's shunsin is not the same speed as Hashirama's, and old Hiruzen's (lol wut). Him arriving at the same time as the other hokages means jack shit really since dudes weren't racing or anything


Looks like Tobirama and Minato were.


Serene Grace said:


> Not to mention we have Madara who was Hashirama's physical equal stating that Tobirama was the fastest of their time


FTG.


Serene Grace said:


> Obito has even less DC than these guys yet you for some reason put him in a high regard am I right?


I would rank him high in cooperation with someone or in a clusterfuck. Individually? Only if he does a sneaking attack.


Serene Grace said:


> Sm Madara who already had knowledge of Tobirama's fighting style and utilization of FTG was still seconds from getting a kunai in his head


no diffed a sneak attack from Tobirama


Serene Grace said:


> if it wasn't for limbo to bail him out


?


Serene Grace said:


> > implying that Hokage Kakashi or Hebi Sasuke would even have the body speed and reflexes to even land Raikri or use it stalemate Minato's rasengan when the former was reacting to and outmatching V2 Ay. Same dude that forced yah boy Sasuke to rely on his mental reactions as he couldn't visually perceive.


Reacting to young *bullrushing* Ay split second before getting smashed has nothing to do with not reacting to adult Ay, whose's shunshining sideways.
The whole reacting and counterattacking when having superior or comparable reaction actually played out in a few instances: Naruto against A3 and Sasuke against A4, both of whom were bullrushing.


Serene Grace said:


> Nagashi?   You serious dude?
> 
> Rasengan tears that shit apart since it only has the elemental advantage but Nagashi is simple fucking
> chidori streamimg


And paralyzes Minato himself.


Serene Grace said:


> Rasengan tears that shit apart since it only has the elemental advantage but Nagashi is simple fucking
> chidori streamimg


well, depends on early Sasuke uses it.


Serene Grace said:


> The ET's are used as Medium's for the explosions since Et's keep constantly regenerating the explosions are therefore infinite
> 
> Tobirama is the one denoting the explosions not the ET's.


I wrote this to support the my previous sentences.


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 10, 2018)

Also @Architect Teleportation is the VIZ translation of Shunshin.
B is not comparing Naruto to FTG but to Shunshin.

Nor would one see movement from FTG.


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## Architect (Mar 10, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> a monster trained by frickin Madara


didn't he trained on his own with advices from Zetsu? And how much time did he spent learning from Zetsu?


Hi no Ishi said:


> says deserves the title of fourth Hokage.


he does indeed.


Hi no Ishi said:


> And A tells Naruto that he thought no one could surpass Minato.


In speed? Indeed. FTG, nuff said.


Hi no Ishi said:


> The guy Kakashi thinks only Naruto surpass.


In talent? Well, Naruto could incorporate wind to rasengan, so he was right.



Hi no Ishi said:


> You trying to use Deva, a dude who waxed a large village in one go and can dodge Rasenshruiken to downplay Gamabunta lol.


There were two bodies who loldodged hits from 3 gamas.
And who couldn't besides chikushodo?


Hi no Ishi said:


> Even MS Sasuke can't perceive A who is slower than Minato by his own admission.





Architect said:


> Reacting to young *bullrushing* Ay (who might be not even using) split seconds before getting smashed has nothing to do with not reacting to adult Ay, whose's shunshining sideways.





Hi no Ishi said:


> Also lol at Chidori Nagashi actually hurting some one with the lightning affinity when it barely hurts people without it.


oh, you are that funny dude who protected tsunade by saying having an elements is enough to counter paralyzation and denied sasuke's usage of CN against Wave of Inspiratiion and then shut with that before this day



Hi no Ishi said:


> no KI Sasuke even though he
> was a secondary target! Yay!


Sasuke tried to slay Obito and Deidara stood utterly close to him.


Hi no Ishi said:


> We have seen a lot of people do not do things as edo tensei right?
> Also we see Orochimaru do it as well with the first and second Hokage's.
> He didn't just kill the kids and do the set up in the roof top in front of Hiruzen did he?


but we know Orochimaru kept improving ET.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Do you not know how the jutsu works, My friend?


I know. The user benefits from an infinite source. Nothing states he doesn't need to keep stpending his chakra to maintain this jutsu.


Hi no Ishi said:


> An he has ET use it because they just keep getting more chakra to summon more tags.


ET has no accept to this technique.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Madara says that's how Tobirama use to use Edo Tensei to clear battlefields remember? When he was chatting with Kabuto.


I don't, actually.


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## Architect (Mar 10, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Also @Architect Teleportation is the VIZ translation of Shunshin.
> B is not comparing Naruto to FTG but to Shunshin.


and what about it?
and your translation is correct, but Viz isn't because?


Hi no Ishi said:


> Nor would one see movement from FTG.


I said that to support the reason why Yamato made his comment.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 10, 2018)

They’re weaker than Nagato, Sage Kabuto etc. but stronger than pretty much every other Kage Level. Hence, they are High Kage.


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 10, 2018)

Architect said:


> didn't he trained on his own with advices from Zetsu? And how much time did he spent learning from Zetsu?


Madara taught him after he came back from Rin's death. Madara teaches him and then dies his second death.



Architect said:


> In speed? Indeed. FTG, nuff said.


Notice him not actually having that addendum you added to his sentence?



Architect said:


> In talent? Well, Naruto could incorporate wind to rasengan, so he was right.


K. So he is the gold standard of speed and Jutsu but low Kage lol. 
Well ignore the other mentions and the sheer number overall too lol.


Architect said:


> oh, you are that funny dude who protected tsunade by saying having an elements is enough to counter paralyzation and denied sasuke's usage of CN against Wave of Inspiratiion


Yep that CN no one mentioned as opposed to the lightning attack that actually happened in panel. 

You get a gold in mental gymnastics.


Architect said:


> Sasuke tried to slay Obito and Deidara stood utterly close to him.


He sure wasn't trying to kill Deidara and says this during their fight.


Architect said:


> but we know Orochimaru kept improving ET.


So you basically have no evidence.

Versus the jutsu being explained and its process being shown, and even knowing it's the strength and number of the summoned that got better, which did not matter to Tobirama anyway since he just blew them up?


Architect said:


> I know. The user benefits from an infinite source. Nothing states he doesn't need to keep stpending his chakra to maintain this jutsu.


The summoner does not use their own chakra for jutsu the summon cast, what are you talking about. 


Architect said:


> ET has no accept to this technique


 what?
English, Spanish, or Japanese please. 


Architect said:


> I don't, actually.


 it's 560 IIRC. When Kabuto it tripping because Madara is going to destroy them both. Madara explains this his how ET was used before.


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 10, 2018)

Architect said:


> and what about it?
> and your translation is correct, but Viz isn't because?



What are you talking about? It's not MY translation. Viz just always translates Shunshin as teleportation.



Look at the English name there or in any viz book.


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## Architect (Mar 10, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Madara taught him after he came back from Rin's death. Madara teaches him and then dies his second death.


he used Genjutsu on him to show different things and told him how to use Gedo Mazo. And then died.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Notice him not actually having that addendum you added to his sentence?


That is he would logically refer to.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Yep that CN no one mentioned as opposed to the lightning attack that actually happened in panel.


wave was introduced for the first time.
We saw Sasuke using CN. 
So yes, get over it.


Hi no Ishi said:


> He sure wasn't trying to kill Deidara and says this during their fight.


That's irrelevant. He tried to speedblitz Tobi and nearly did this to Deidara.


Hi no Ishi said:


> So you basically have no evidence.
> Versus the jutsu being explained and its process being shown, and even knowing it's the strength and number of the summoned that got better, which did not matter to Tobirama anyway since he just blew them up?


Well, who knows, maybe he couldn't summon them for some reasons. I'm not saying it has to be so, but I wouldn't be so confident in his ET.


Hi no Ishi said:


> The summoner does not use their own chakra for jutsu the summon cast, what are you talking about.


yet his minions don't posess this jutsu.


Hi no Ishi said:


> English, Spanish, or Japanese please.


what's unclear about it?


Hi no Ishi said:


> it's 560 IIRC. When Kabuto it tripping because Madara is going to destroy them both. Madara explains this his how ET was used before.


nothing related to this in that chapter.


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## Architect (Mar 10, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> What are you talking about? It's not MY translation. Viz just always translates Shunshin as teleportation.
> 
> 
> 
> Look at the English name there or in any viz book.


Well, true. I also reread Chapter 505. Well, Bee wasn't comparing Naruto shunshin to Minato's teleportation (shunshin).
He said "Was that teleportation jutsu? First at bat, quite a smash" and then "that was just like Yellow Flash". That's still him most probably referring to Minato's FTG.


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 10, 2018)

Architect said:


> he used Genjutsu on him to show different things and told him how to use Gedo Mazo. And then died.


He tells him he is going to teach him the Uchiha jutsu and about the Rikudo stuff then as well


Architect said:


> That is he would logically refer to.


Or the fact that Minato is just better in general lol


Architect said:


> wave was introduced for the first time.
> We saw Sasuke using CN.
> So yes, get over it.


Gets shocked, is still shocked in the next panel= must be some other jutsu. 

Ok, over it lol.


Architect said:


> That's irrelevant. He tried to speedblitz Tobi and nearly did this to Deidara.


So he could barely dodge even though he was the second target. Like I said.


Architect said:


> Well, who knows, maybe he couldn't summon them for some reasons. I'm not saying it has to be so, but I wouldn't be so confident in his ET.


While I don't know if Edo Tensei can summon other Edo Tensei,  Edo Tobirama simply does not need to when he can just blow himself up anyway. Especially when whomever he summons won't be able to catch up to Jubito.

What I do know is that Edo Tensei is not even kinda hinted to have a different process between users, only stronger better binding.


Architect said:


> yet his minions don't posess this jutsu.


Either Mu is a summoner who always could summon, Gengetsu, A, Rasa, and Madara at will or the summoned can use jutsu through the Edo Tensei.

Also he had to use it through ET, if he uses it himself he dies. 


Architect said:


> nothing related to this in that chapter.


My bad it's chapter 561 page 2 upper right panel. 


Architect said:


> Well, true. I also reread Chapter 505. Well, Bee wasn't comparing Naruto shunshin to Minato's teleportation (shunshin).
> He said "Was that teleportation jutsu? First at bat, quite a smash" and then "that was just like Yellow Flash". That's still him most probably referring to Minato's FTG.


The yellow flash moniker is about more than FTG, he is also just super fast. 
Even though A knows what Minato can do and has a plan for it, Minato tosses the kunai, goes to the tree, FTG back to A's back and then cuts B's tentacle, tags him and gets away before A even knows what the Hell is happening.
His reactions and striking speed are also top notch.
And you have already had several of his Shunshin feats shown to you repeatedly in this very thread.


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## Crow (Mar 10, 2018)

No point of even arguing with @Architect anymore. He's dead set on his incorrect opinion

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Karyu Endan (Mar 10, 2018)

Architect said:


> Chidori Nagashi doesn't require handseals at all. Sasuke negs Minato.



Chidori Nagashi was hyped to be unblockable when it was first introduced. Guess what?

Killer B blocked it. The same Killer B that admits utter inferiority to Minato blocks a previously unblockable attack. Obviously Minato, who is considerably faster than B, would have no trouble either blocking or dodging it too.

Also... V2 A dodges Amaterasu, and later declares Minato to be faster than him. So Minato could dodge Amaterasu too.

Sasuke doesn't even begin to compete with Minato until he gets the Rinnegan and Amenotejikara gives Sasuke an equivalent/counter to FTG.


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## hysoka uchiha (Mar 11, 2018)

B is Surge's raichu to ash's pikachu A and B dwell in Raiton that's nothing to do with Minato.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Architect (Mar 11, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> He tells him he is going to teach him the Uchiha jutsu and about the Rikudo stuff then as well


yeah.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Gets shocked, is still shocked in the next panel= must be some other jutsu.


who told you he was shocked at all?
he also wasn't shocked in the panels when wave ended, but protected by CN, which we can clearly see.


Hi no Ishi said:


> So he could barely dodge even though he was the second target. Like I said.


He noticed Sasuke like from 1.5 meter apart and being second target or not has no value here.


Hi no Ishi said:


> While I don't know if Edo Tensei can summon other Edo Tensei


You just wrote below ET (Muu) can summon other ET...


Hi no Ishi said:


> My bad it's chapter 561 page 2 upper right panel.


I see.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Either Mu is a summoner who always could summon, Gengetsu, A, Rasa, and Madara at will or the summoned can use jutsu through the Edo Tensei.


Summoning is a common jutsu. What's the problem in making your ET summon other ET?
Unlike Tobirama's A-rankn jutsu, which is unique to him.


Hi no Ishi said:


> The yellow flash moniker is about more than FTG, he is also just super fast.


Nothing stands behind him being super fast, besides confusement with FTG. 
All we know is that Minato is somewhat faster than the first 3 hokages.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Even though A knows what Minato can do and has a plan for it, Minato tosses the kunai, goes to the tree, FTG back to A's back and then cuts B's tentacle, tags him and gets away before A even knows what the Hell is happening.


What are you talking about? What knowledge? What plan? All Ay was going to do in the first killing attempt was to speedblitz Minato.
I can't see what does that prove. FTG is instantaneous. Barely reacting to young Ay, who is attacking you linearly, hopping with FTG two times and failing to land a blow at Ay before Bee pushes him out doesn't help much.


Hi no Ishi said:


> And you have already had several of his Shunshin feats shown to you repeatedly in this very thread.


Besides what I mentioned above, someone wrote Minato, who wasn't attacked, using shunshin to save Kushina, did better than mental SM Naruto, who was attacked in the first place and caught midair and still only lost his clone to Kurama, IIRC.
Anyhting besides this meaningless comparison?


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## hbcaptain (Mar 11, 2018)

Kishi being too lazy to draw handseals doesn't mean the Jutsu used by some characters doesn't require them. In Sasuke's case he is forced  to use Chidori, thus only if this condition is achieved, then he can transform his base his Chidori into a .


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 11, 2018)

Architect said:


> *FTG?*
> Minato's only offensive feats with it are tricking young Obito with FTG v2 and getting behind bullrushing Ay (which would basically achieve nothing).
> Anyone who doesn't witlessly charges at the opponent and whose intellectual ablilities are not lower than Bee's and who also has not bad reaction wouldn't see FTG as much of a threat.
> Tobirama killed Izuna via Hiraishingiri under unknown circumstances. He also TP-ed to the seal on Obito placed by his clone, which most probably would got poofed before it could do anything, if it was alive Tobirama.
> ...


Minato. He had defeated Tobi before he died(I mean that he figured out how this attack works and found a perfect counter on it.). Beating 1000 Shinobi(even fodders) is still impressive if you do this in a few minutes. He is also top tier in high Kage, because more experienced people like A and Onoki afraid of him(I know that wasn't "clear" fear like fear by Madara, but still leaving BF after hearing your name means something).
Tobirama. He inveted cool and hax Jutsu like Edo Tensei(IMO the strongest Jutsu in Narutoverse. If he could use this on Kabuto's/Oro's level, he would be even higher). FTG-it could also give him a boost, but we didn't know how he used it. 
I also gave him a credit, because he killed Izuna who was on par with Madara at that time(by hype). This feat should make him low Kage at least. I also respect the fact that he was able to do Water Dragon with 1 seal, while others need 44 seals.
Minato-top tier in high Kage.
Tobirama-mid tier in mid Kage.
Uffffff........ Man that wasn't easy. I have to admit that 2 out 3 characters I hate a lot are strong. You should do next time "What makes you believe that Kisame is strong" or sth like that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 11, 2018)

Btw. I hate Tobirama also because of this


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## Architect (Mar 11, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> Kishi being too lazy to draw handseals doesn't mean the Jutsu used by some characters doesn't require them. In Sasuke's case he is forced  to use Chidori, thus only if this condition is achieved, then he can transform his base his Chidori into a .


He started it with a regular Chidori and then extended it due to mastering CN. Why wouldn't he need handseals?


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## hbcaptain (Mar 11, 2018)

Architect said:


> He started it with a regular Chidori and then extended it due to mastering CN. Why wouldn't he need handseals?


If you really read my post then you would've known that handseals are required to activate Chidori.


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## Architect (Mar 11, 2018)

Polandfan said:


> Minato. He had defeated Tobi before he died(I mean that he figured out how this attack works and found a perfect counter on it.)


He is a ST-jutsu user. He didn't found a perfect counter on it, he had it.


Polandfan said:


> Beating 1000 Shinobi(even fodders) is still impressive if you do this in a few minutes.


Bos Sasuke beat countless shinobi without killing them. 
Was it stated somewhere Minato did that in a few minutes?


Polandfan said:


> He is also top tier in high Kage, because more experienced people like A and Onoki afraid of him(I know that wasn't "clear" fear like fear by Madara, but still leaving BF after hearing your name means something).


A wasn't. And A is only around mid kage level.
Onoki must be impressed by Minato, knowing he beat the 1k fodders of Iwa.


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## Architect (Mar 11, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> If you really read my post then you would've known that handseals are required to activate Chidori.


Although I don't believe it is so, I never argued that in my post, speaking of a regular Chidori. But conducting electricity through your body didn't require seals not even in a single instance in the manga.
Chidori Nagashi was introduced without any signs.
Ay's shroud definetely doesn't require any.


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 11, 2018)

Architect said:


> He is a ST-jutsu user. He didn't found a perfect counter on it, he had it.
> 
> Bos Sasuke beat countless shinobi without killing them.
> Was it stated somewhere Minato did that in a few minutes?
> ...


1.I don't think so. Possessing ST-jutsu doesn't mean that you can beat Kamui user without a knowledge. It's not clear win.
2. 2:06. One of Konoha Shinobi said "Don't blink, even for a second, so he probably killed Iwa fodders very fast. Maybe I am wrong.
3.I didn't say stronger, but more experienced. A is older, so he must have more battle experience. Am i right ?


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## Architect (Mar 11, 2018)

Polandfan said:


> 1.I don't think so. Possessing ST-jutsu doesn't mean that you can beat Kamui user without a knowledge. It's not clear win.
> 2. 2:06. One of Konoha Shinobi said "Don't blink, even for a second, so he probably killed Iwa fodders very fast. Maybe I am wrong.
> 3.I didn't say stronger, but more experienced. A is older, so he must have more battle experience. Am i right ?


1. It's not like he somehow invented new jutsu during the fight to counter Kamui or devised a special strategy against it. This is how your post sounded.
2. He probably implied to not miss FTG/Shunshin usage, rather than missing Minato killing 50 fodders within split second.
3. A should be stronger than he was, but in regards to battle experience he shouldn't be notably more experienced. Great Shinobi War ended not long after or even before Minato died I think. And from then Ay probably didn't engage in many battles, but sat ruling Kumo.


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 11, 2018)

Architect said:


> 1. It's not like he somehow invented new jutsu during the fight to counter Kamui or devised a special strategy against it. This is how your post sounded.
> 2. He probably implied to not miss FTG/Shunshin usage, rather than missing Minato killing 50 fodders within split second.
> 3. A should be stronger than he was, but in regards to battle experience he shouldn't be notably more experienced. Great Shinobi War ended not long after Minato died I think. And from then Ay probably didn't engage in many battles, but sat ruling Kumo.


Ok. That's your point, I have my own(I am not offended).


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 11, 2018)

Architect said:


> yeah


So yes trained by Madara.


Architect said:


> who told you he was shocked at all?
> he also wasn't shocked in the panels when wave ended, but protected by CN, which we can clearly see.


Dude stop trolling. 
In 461 page 2, we see the water get electrocuted in the middle left panel, then the rest of the water being shocked and the exact same effect on Sasuke, then the next panel he is clearly being blasted back.
On the very next page he is still under the same effect, but now you are pretending he wasn't even shocked?

Heck 

*Spoiler*: __ 



 忍術 - 雷遁・感激波

ダルイが使用する雷遁と水遁
の融合術。水遁の術で大量の
水を吐き出し、続けざまに雷
遁の印を組み水に雷撃を混合。
触れた敵を瞬時に感電させる。

Ninjutsu - Lightning Release: InspirationalWave

A fusion technique where Darui employs Lightning Release and Water Release.
He spits out a large mass of water with aWater Release technique, and continueswith
mixing the water with a lightning strike byforming the Lightning Release seal.
When it hits an enemy, he instantly receives an electric shock.





The databook says it shocks people and shows Sasuke getting shocked.


Architect said:


> You just wrote below ET (Muu) can summon other ET...


Can they use their own is what I'm wondering.



Architect said:


> I see


So you clearly see, yes, he totally did use them that way. 


Architect said:


> Summoning is a common jutsu. What's the problem in making your ET summon other ET?
> Unlike Tobirama's A-rankn jutsu, which is unique to him.


Unless they had contracted with each other Mu could not just summon other Kage lol. That's his summoners ability being used through him. 


Architect said:


> Nothing stands behind him being super fast, besides confusement with FTG.
> All we know is that Minato is somewhat faster than the first 3 hokages.


Does that feat exist in a vacuum? 
No.

He saved Kakashi super fast,
snatched his baby super fast,
 dodged an explosion super fast in his house, 
Blitzed Kurama super fast
Saves his wife super fast, 
Beats the other super strong zombies to the battlefield,
Surrounds the Jubi in Kunai super fast,
Etc
With out FTG. 

Are you sensing a pattern here?
Everyone else who read the manga is. 

Why do you think the author put all that in? To show that he is slow?


Architect said:


> What are you talking about? What knowledge? What plan? All Ay was going to do in the first killing attempt was to speedblitz Minato.
> I can't see what does that prove. FTG is instantaneous. Barely reacting to young Ay, who is attacking you linearly, hopping with FTG two times and failing to land a blow at Ay before Bee pushes him out doesn't help much.


They knows who the kunai belong to and what they do as well as Minato's reputation before the fight even starts lol read chapter 542 again please.

Sorry math wins, someone who can make several actions and decisions before another can is simply faster than them. 
As is the case here. It's why A was never like " Oh that darn FTG, it was too much." He says he just did not think anyone could surpass Minato.


Architect said:


> Besides what I mentioned above, someone wrote Minato, who wasn't attacked, using shunshin to save Kushina, did better than mental SM Naruto, who was attacked in the first place and caught midair and still only lost his clone to Kurama, IIRC.
> Anyhting besides this meaningless comparison?


 see above.


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## Architect (Mar 11, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Dude stop trolling.
> In 461 page 2, we see the water get electrocuted in the middle left panel, then the rest of the water being shocked and the exact same effect on Sasuke, then the next panel he is clearly being blasted back.
> On the very next page he is still under the same effect, but now you are pretending he wasn't even shocked?
> 
> ...


The only one who is pretending about something here is you. Like about Sasuke who didn't use CN.
We haven't seen Sasuke being shocked and by shocked I understand taking damage/being paralyzed. But we saw him engulfed by lightning and we clearly saw Sasuke using CN to counter the effect of Wave of Inspiration. During the moment he was being pushed back by water masses, we actually were shown how two lightning jutsus clashed: Darui's lightning as he used it before those panels and Sasuke's Nagash as he was shown (after getting out of the water) to have used it, even though we couldn't distinguish those two in the "Sasuke in the water" panel as they overlapped.



Hi no Ishi said:


> Unless they had contracted with each other Mu could not just summon other Kage lol. That's his summoners ability being used through him.


Does ET user sign a contract with the dead man summoned?


Hi no Ishi said:


> He saved Kakashi super fast,


FTG or interception against low jonin level.


Hi no Ishi said:


> snatched his baby super fast


just like base Naruto saved Sakura.


Hi no Ishi said:


> dodged an explosion super fast in his house,





Hi no Ishi said:


> Blitzed Kurama super fast


Where are you getting these super fast impressions? Why other shinobi couldn't do that?
Also, he was already separating naruto and tagged clothes even before teleporting to his house.
And interception feats are also all over the place.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Beats the other super strong zombies to the battlefield,
> Surrounds the Jubi in Kunai super fast,


Again, why did he do that *super fast*?
All your super fast (since by saying so you intent to raise him above others) notions come from nowhere.


Hi no Ishi said:


> They knows who the kunai belong to and what they do as well as Minato's reputation before the fight even starts lol read chapter 542 again please.


And yet Ay had no plan besides speedblitzing him. At least he prefered that one, even if he had another.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Sorry math wins, someone who can make several actions and decisions before another can is simply faster than them.
> As is the case here. It's why A was never like " Oh that darn FTG, it was too much." He says he just did not think anyone could surpass Minato.


Such a shame Kishi didn't give Ay FTG to show how he would put Minato to shame with what he could do in his place 
Why wouldn't he? Speed is Ay's pride and Minato countered fastest man alive with his FTG. What else would he think about him?


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## JuicyG (Mar 11, 2018)

Minato & Tobirama are high kage level characters both with..


Canon feats
Canon statements
Canon story portrayal 
Canon hype
Lol Not sure the good folks of NBD can spell it out for you anymore clearly @Architect

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Architect (Mar 11, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Minato & Tobirama are high kage level characters both with..
> 
> 
> Canon feats
> ...


Don't act pretending to be teaching anyone. I was interested in peoples opininons and now that I've read plenty of them I've come to the conclusion it was just as I thought: he is overrated because of misinterpretation of both his hype and feats and nothing I wrote in my first post (head) was wrong.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Dislike 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 11, 2018)

Architect said:


> peoples opininons and now that I've read plenty of them I've come to the conclusion it was just as I thought: he is overrated



After all everyone has been telling you, THAT was your conclusion !?

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Lewd 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 11, 2018)

Architect said:


> The only one who is pretending about something here is you. Like about Sasuke who didn't use CN.
> We haven't seen Sasuke being shocked and by shocked I understand taking damage/being paralyzed. But we saw him engulfed by lightning and we clearly saw Sasuke using CN to counter the effect of Wave of Inspiration. During the moment he was being pushed back by water masses, we actually were shown how two lightning jutsus clashed: Darui's lightning as he used it before those panels and Sasuke's Nagash as he was shown (after getting out of the water) to have used it, even though we couldn't distinguish those two in the "Sasuke in the water" panel as they overlapped.



Except you are making that up. He gets shocked and blasted back still having the same effect. Not "Oh he got shocked and uses a thing that looks exactly the same, but with no indication of that, and no mention of that" 

You have provided 0 proof of another ability being used. 



Architect said:


> Does ET user sign a contract with the dead man summoned?


Yes lol. You know about the freaking ritual already, stop trolling.



Architect said:


> FTG or interception against low jonin level.





Architect said:


> just like base Naruto saved Sakura.





Architect said:


> Where are you getting these super fast impressions? Why other shinobi couldn't do that?
> Also, he was already separating naruto and tagged clothes even before teleporting to his house.
> And interception feats are also all over the place.


So your plan is to hand wave a ton of feats, stick your fingers in your ears and yell " la la la"?




Architect said:


> And yet Ay had no plan besides speedblitzing him. At least he prefered that one, even if he had another.


Because there are a ton of good plans to stop someone who can just neg any jutsu? Like what?


Architect said:


> Such a shame Kishi didn't give Ay FTG to show how he would put Minato to shame with what he could do in his place
> Why wouldn't he? Speed is Ay's pride and Minato countered fastest man alive with his FTG. What else would he think about him?


Head cannon. 

As soon as Naruto ask A " you knew my dad?"

A replies  " yep. And no one could surpass him." They were not talking about just speed.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 11, 2018)

I also love that you read Madara saying that Tobirama used Edo Tensei was used to blow up the Battlefield still wondering if Tobirama can do it with his Edo Tensei @Architect


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## Architect (Mar 12, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Except you are making that up. He gets shocked and blasted back still having the same effect. Not "Oh he got shocked and uses a thing that looks exactly the same, but with no indication of that, and no mention of that"



It looks the same only in the moment when Sasuke is in the water stream, since readers can't really see the difference between different lightnings conducted through water, but when Sasuke gets out of it, there's nothing like shock effect on him that was presented on suigetsu and b when they were hit with Chidori. Buy the electricity you are marking as a "shock" is nothing else than Chidori Nagashi, as is looks exactly like it.
You either deal with it or not. Don't make me repeat the same thing over and over and over.

They don't have to yell technique name every time.



Hi no Ishi said:


> So your plan is to hand wave a ton of feats, stick your fingers in your ears and yell " la la la"?


No?
Prove he was faster or way faster than others here, or quit jestering.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Because there are a ton of good plans to stop someone who can just neg any jutsu? Like what?


Are you asking me? For you, who consider a speedblitz as a plan, everything would work I think.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Yes lol. You know about the freaking ritual already, stop trolling.


No, enlighten me.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Head cannon.
> 
> As soon as Naruto ask A " you knew my dad?"
> 
> A replies " yep. And no one could surpass him." They were not talking about just speed.


It's no worse than claiming Ay considered Minato stronger or something like that.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 12, 2018)

SJ: While we’re at it… could you please tell us if Minato was the strongest shinobi that ever lived?

MK: Hmmm, it’s a tricky question. As far as dead shinobis goes, then yes, he’s the strongest. I’d say that Sandaime shares the number one spot with him. As far as living shinobis goes… well, without going into many details I’d have to say no. There’s a couple of shinobis whose stronger than him.

>High Kage in 2008
>Man posts debate in 2018 demanding answers

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 12, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> SJ: While we’re at it… could you please tell us if Minato was the strongest shinobi that ever lived?
> 
> MK: Hmmm, it’s a tricky question. As far as dead shinobis goes, then yes, he’s the strongest. I’d say that Sandaime shares the number one spot with him. As far as living shinobis goes… well, without going into many details I’d have to say no. There’s a couple of shinobis whose stronger than him.
> 
> ...


/ thread I guess lol.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2018)

Architect said:


> and that was only V1 Ay.



Implying V2 Ay is more durable which is hilariously false and baseless 
V2 is a Speed boost not A defense boost


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2018)

I am still impressed BD is so active with so many misguided new posters 
It is cute none the less 
But hard to entertain at times 

The easiest way to define high kage would be based on the techniques they possess 

Tobirama possesses a jutsu kabuto called the most powerful 

Minato possess one that even after DB4 is still classed as the fastest man alive 

No other kage with the title has jutsu on their level 

The only one Above that is hashirama 

Then again when you have people like tsunade as kage it isn’t hard to imagine these 2 as high kage level


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## Architect (Mar 12, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> SJ: While we’re at it… could you please tell us if Minato was the strongest shinobi that ever lived?
> 
> MK: Hmmm, it’s a tricky question. As far as dead shinobis goes, then yes, he’s the strongest. I’d say that Sandaime shares the number one spot with him. As far as living shinobis goes… well, without going into many details I’d have to say no. There’s a couple of shinobis whose stronger than him.
> 
> ...


So, Kishi is basically saying both Minato and Hiruzen are stronger than Madara and Hashirama?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Architect (Mar 12, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> Implying V2 Ay is more durable which is hilariously false and baseless
> V2 is a Speed boost not A defense boost


Hilarious to think putting more chakra into chakra shroud doesn't make it tougher and thicker.

And also, Naruto's rasengan stalemating Sasuke's chidori doesn't necessarily mean it would fair as good against V1 Ay as Chidori as their piercing capabilities are different.


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## Architect (Mar 12, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> I also love that you read Madara saying that Tobirama used Edo Tensei was used to blow up the Battlefield still wondering if Tobirama can do it with his Edo Tensei @Architect


I am not wondering he can do it, I am questioning for how long before he runs out of chakra.


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## Hasan (Mar 12, 2018)

That interview is made up.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2018)

Architect said:


> Hilarious to think putting more chakra into chakra shroud doesn't make it tougher and thicker.
> 
> And also, Naruto's rasengan stalemating Sasuke's chidori doesn't necessarily mean it would fair as good against V1 Ay as Chidori as their piercing capabilities are different.



and yet was never stated or implied. then again V2 shroud was disengaged and bested by base bee lariat not sure that helps your case. but hey 

rasengan especially a bigger one simply>>chidori this has been proved time and time again. Rasengan is overall a stronger technique
case in point the water container they both struck. or kabuto healing before rasengan hits him yet he still got KO. yet sasuke chidori naruto straight in the chest and he guy heals casually. 

or chidori+enton still not besting rasengan when naruto and sasuke fought in VOTE but hey  sure they are equal 

in any case the assumption that minato isnt far superior to Ay is dense for the following reasons 

1) madara trolled Ay and is much stronger yet Ay showed no visible injures [hence Ay showing no visible injuries after loosing to minato multiple times isnt an indication that they were close in combat abilities ] 

2) hashirama was madara clear superior yet again madara showed no visible signs of injury after multiple years of fighting. hashirama was clearly superior to the point he told madara . I dont want to kill you. madara even had help from the strongest bijuu and STILL lost. 

3) points 1 and 2 go to show Ay havign no injures=/= he and minato are even. minato could have simply spared him each time 

4) you dont call someone a legend if you believe yourself on par. not when said person lived in the same time period as you, where no one can exaggerate their abilities as time goes on

5) Kishi himself said minato is well superior 

6) all points 1 and 5 show is whatever level you think Ay is at minato is clearly superior. hence Minato is quite simply high kage level


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## hbcaptain (Mar 12, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> SJ: While we’re at it… could you please tell us if Minato was the strongest shinobi that ever lived?
> 
> MK: Hmmm, it’s a tricky question. As far as dead shinobis goes, then yes, he’s the strongest. I’d say that Sandaime shares the number one spot with him. As far as living shinobis goes… well, without going into many details I’d have to say no. There’s a couple of shinobis whose stronger than him.
> 
> ...


This interview is a fake.


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## Architect (Mar 12, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> and yet was never stated or implied.



Also


> _Databook 2 - Suiton: Suijinheki_
> NINJUTSU; Suiton: Suijinheki (Water Release: Water Encampment Fence)
> User: Nidaime Hokage; Hatake Kakashi
> Supplementary, Close range; Rank: B
> ...


Well, more chakra put into elemental jutsu means either growth in scale or in quality (hardness/concentration or in case of fire might be temperature too (not sure)).

And Ay didn't increase his chakra just a bit, but to the point he was compared to Bijuu.

As we haven't seen increase in thickness (which would also increase armour's toughness), lightning chakra must have become more concentrated and armour is more potent.


Icegaze said:


> case in point the water container they both struck. or kabuto healing before rasengan hits him yet he still got KO.


You just pointed the difference between them I mentioned.


Icegaze said:


> et sasuke chidori naruto straight in the chest and he guy heals casually.


I guess this is reference to VOTE 1 where Naruto was wearing Kurama cloak.


Icegaze said:


> or chidori+enton still not besting rasengan when naruto and sasuke fought in VOTE but hey


what would be the effect if they bested?


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## Architect (Mar 12, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> 1) madara trolled Ay and is much stronger yet Ay showed no visible injures [hence Ay showing no visible injuries after loosing to minato multiple times isnt an indication that they were close in combat abilities ]
> 
> 2) hashirama was madara clear superior yet again madara showed no visible signs of injury after multiple years of fighting. hashirama was clearly superior to the point he told madara . I dont want to kill you. madara even had help from the strongest bijuu and STILL lost.
> 
> 3) points 1 and 2 go to show Ay havign no injures=/= he and minato are even. minato could have simply spared him each time


Funny how you call abscence of victory a lose.
Or couldn't injure him.


Icegaze said:


> 4) you dont call someone a legend if you believe yourself on par. not when said person lived in the same time period as you, where no one can exaggerate their abilities as time goes on
> 
> 5) Kishi himself said minato is well superior



You do if that someone is a man you failed to kill on several occasion and whose one jutsu > everything young Ay could throw at him.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2018)

Architect said:


> Also
> 
> Well, more chakra put into elemental jutsu means either growth in scale or in quality (hardness/concentration or in case of fire might be temperature too (not sure)).
> 
> ...



in ref to Vote 2
where sasuke used enton +chidori and naruto was in base

and rasengan clashed equally with enton+chidori

i can tell you are new


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2018)

Architect said:


> Funny how you call abscence of victory a lose.
> Or couldn't injure him.
> 
> 
> You do if that someone is a man you failed to kill on several occasion and whose one jutsu > everything young Ay could throw at him.



so madara=hashirama then?

young AY lol. funny how he never then said but i am faster than him now  he still sees himself as inferior to minato

also nothing was ever implied he increased in speed either. these are 5 year old arguments but like i said noobs


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## Architect (Mar 12, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> in ref to Vote 2
> where sasuke used enton +chidori and naruto was in base
> 
> and rasengan clashed equally with enton+chidori
> ...


You said Chidori hit Naruto and he healed.


Icegaze said:


> and rasengan clashed equally with enton+chidori


what would happen if combo bested ransengan?
I am not.


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## Architect (Mar 12, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> so madara=hashirama then?
> 
> young AY lol. funny how he never then said but i am faster than him now he still sees himself as inferior to minato
> 
> also nothing was ever implied he increased in speed either. these are 5 year old arguments but like i said noobs


What you are trying to apply is a straw man. 
I don't remember Hashirama being stronger before he mastered SM. But if he was, Minato wasn't.

1) This gives me an "Jiraiya and Hanzo"-esque feeling. 
2) As long as we call Minato faster than Ay because of FTG, he wouldn't know for sure could he finally smash young Minato with 15 years of improving behind him.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2018)

Architect said:


> What you are trying to apply is a straw man.
> I don't remember Hashirama being stronger before he mastered SM. But if he was, Minato wasn't.
> 
> 1) This gives me an "Jiraiya and Hanzo"-esque feeling.
> 2) As long as we call Minato faster than Ay because of FTG, he wouldn't know for sure could he finally smash young Minato with 15 years of improving behind him.



lolz. hashirama always was or he wouldnt say something as blaze as i dont want to kill you. and madara wouldnt come prepped with kyuubi only to still loose. 

1) what the F are you talking about
2) well minato is faster than Ay the end. ask the author 
well despite improving he still claims minato is faster than him and someone that could not be surpassed. if he felt he had gotten so much faster after 15 years there would be no need to make such a statement. 

again you wouldnt call someone a legend you feel you are equal to in any way. Micheal jordan is a legend , Basket ball player X wouldnt call himself a legend simply because a played in the same match as MJ


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2018)

Architect said:


> You said Chidori hit Naruto and he healed.
> 
> what would happen if combo bested ransengan?
> I am not.



yes first was VOTE 1

the combo didnt best rasengan though . so your question is utterly irrelevant 

rasengan= CHIDORI+ENTON

hence rasegan>chidori

furthermore more a ORS >>>chidori
/thread


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## Architect (Mar 12, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> yes first was VOTE 1
> 
> the combo didnt best rasengan though . so your question is utterly irrelevant
> 
> ...


So, cloak protected Naruto or what?
1) The thing is, Rasengan stalemated Chidori before. After Sasuke vs Danzo fight.
1) It is not. Would the explosion be different? Would Naruto lose an arm, while Sasuke wouldn't? Can you say yes for sure?


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2018)

Architect said:


> So, cloak protected Naruto or what?
> 1) The thing is, Rasengan stalemated Chidori before. After Sasuke vs Danzo fight.
> 1) It is not. Would the explosion be different? Would Naruto lose an arm, while Sasuke wouldn't? Can you say yes for sure?



no cloak did not 
he had no cloak before getting stabbed honestly 

yes rasengan that naruto still hadnt perfected. the one where he still needed a clone to form his rasengan. however once he mastered the technique sasuke needed enton to match it 


so sasuke added enton for no reason then? 

not sure this argument can go anywhere. you asked a question everyone has answered it yet with your inexperience and naivety you argue on


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## Architect (Mar 12, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> lolz. hashirama always was or he wouldnt say something as blaze as i dont want to kill you. and madara wouldnt come prepped with kyuubi only to still loose.


1) Exactly when did he say that?
2) Kakashi says I don't want to kill you and Sasuke laughs at him thinking he was able.
3) Madara+Kyubii<SM Hashirama, so what about it?


Icegaze said:


> 1) what the F are you talking about


I am talking about Jiraiya who became stronger than Hanzo and was still wondering someone managed to beat Hanzo whom he thought to be unbeatable.


Icegaze said:


> 2) well minato is faster than Ay the end. ask the author
> well despite improving he still claims minato is faster than him and someone that could not be surpassed. if he felt he had gotten so much faster after 15 years there would be no need to make such a statement.


Indeed, if he would have become 2 times faster then he wouldn't doubt he is faster than Minato, but none is saying Ay improved that much.


Icegaze said:


> again you wouldnt call someone a legend you feel you are equal to in any way. Micheal jordan is a legend , Basket ball player X wouldnt call himself a legend simply because a played in the same match as MJ


7 y.o me would beat Michael Jordan in Tekken 3. Your point?


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## Architect (Mar 12, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> no cloak did not
> he had no cloak before getting stabbed honestly


I see. I found the moment.
Sasuke successfully pierced Naruto.
Firstly, Sasuke didn't hit Naruto's organs.
Secondly, like I said, different effects. Rasengan deals more internal damage as we've seen indication of this during the roof fight and Naruto vs Kabuto, but doesn't pierce one.


Icegaze said:


> yes rasengan that naruto still hadnt perfected. the one where he still needed a clone to form his rasengan. however once he mastered the technique sasuke needed enton to match it
> 
> 
> so sasuke added enton for no reason then?


using clone or not doesn't somehow affect power of ransengan.
Sasuke tried to kill Naruto with clear Chidori several pages prior to that. The next time when he was looking at Naruto with sharingan (and seeing his almost nonexistent chakra level) and added enton before Kurama shared his last chakra with Naruto.
So, for whatever reason he added it ask Kishi.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2018)

Architect said:


> 1) Exactly when did he say that?
> 2) Kakashi says I don't want to kill you and Sasuke laughs at him thinking he was able.
> 3) Madara+Kyubii<SM Hashirama, so what about it?
> 
> ...




and yet madara+kyuubi lost to hashirama honestly you must be trolling 

you cant be faster than someone who travels distances instantly 

as of DB 4 kishi called minato the fastest man alive


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2018)

Architect said:


> I see. I found the moment.
> Sasuke successfully pierced Naruto.
> Firstly, Sasuke didn't hit Naruto's organs.
> Secondly, like I said, different effects. Rasengan deals more internal damage as we've seen indication of this during the roof fight and Naruto vs Kabuto, but doesn't pierce one.
> ...



so naruto has no organs behind his chest. wow didnt know that 

needing clones to help from the rasengan shows obvious signs of not perfecting the technique



yh i give up someone else argue...a wall is more responsive


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## Architect (Mar 12, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> and yet madara+kyuubi lost to hashirama honestly you must be trolling
> 
> you cant be faster than someone who travels distances instantly
> 
> as of DB 4 kishi called minato the fastest man alive





Architect said:


> 3) Madara+Kyubii<SM Hashirama, so what about it?


But you can smash em before they react.


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 12, 2018)

Architect said:


> It looks the same only in the moment when Sasuke is in the water stream, since readers can't really see the difference between different lightnings conducted through water, but when Sasuke gets out of it, there's nothing like shock effect on him that was presented on suigetsu and b when they were hit with Chidori. Buy the electricity you are marking as a "shock" is nothing else than Chidori Nagashi, as is looks exactly like it.
> You either deal with it or not. Don't make me repeat the same thing over and over and over.
> 
> They don't have to yell technique name every time.


Readers can't see a different jutsu because there isn't one. The lightning effect on Sasuke looks just like what Darui is spitting. 
Again provide proof or acknowledge that this is your assumption.




Architect said:


> No?
> Prove he was faster or way faster than others here, or quit jestering.


I don't have to prove that he was faster than everyone lol. The manga and databook tell you this. 
The "Fastest Shinobi" Tobirama called him faster, and later complemented his Shunshin directly.
A tells you he is faster. 
C tells you A4 uses lightning armor to stay on Minato's speed tier.
Obito repeatedly compliments his shinshin speed.
The databook calls him the fastest ever.

Again what do you think Kishimoto was trying to tell you by this? Serious question.


Architect said:


> Are you asking me? For you, who consider a speedblitz as a plan, everything would work I think.


So you cant come up with anything to back up your statement but ad hominems? 

Good sign of a fallacy.


Architect said:


> No, enlighten me.


The Summoner first smears their DNA on a contract just like any other summon. It's the only reason they can summon other people anyway. 


Architect said:


> It's no worse than claiming Ay considered Minato stronger or something like that.


Not just stronger, "unsurpassable". 
Not a thing you say about someone you think you have a chance against.


Architect said:


> I am not wondering he can do it, I am questioning for how long before he runs out of chakra.


He uses Edo Tensei to cast the jutsu. They don't run out easily. 
Ergo a long damn time.


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## Architect (Mar 12, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> so naruto has no organs behind his chest. wow didnt know that


he could've damaged the edge of one of Naruto's lungs at best.


Icegaze said:


> needing clones to help from the rasengan shows obvious signs of not perfecting the technique


How is something made by two people is weaker/worse than made by a single person?


Icegaze said:


> yh i give up


Wise of you, as you failed quite at everything.


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## Architect (Mar 12, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Readers can't see a different jutsu because there isn't one. The lightning effect on Sasuke looks just like what Darui is spitting.
> Again provide proof or acknowledge that this is your assumption.


Because it's impossible.
I've already proven that in our original place of arguement when I posted several pictures showing CN was present.


Hi no Ishi said:


> I don't have to prove that he was faster than everyone lol. The manga and databook tell you this.
> The "Fastest Shinobi" Tobirama called him faster, and later complemented his Shunshin directly.
> A tells you he is faster.
> C tells you A4 uses lightning armor to stay on Minato's speed tier.
> ...


I myself wrote Minato is faster than the first three Hokages. But you are saying Minato is way or significantly faster than others, thus you have to prove it to claim so. And all you do is throw moments where no indication of such superiority can be seen.
Indeed Minato is. He has FTG after all.


Hi no Ishi said:


> So you cant come up with anything to back up your statement but ad hominems?
> 
> Good sign of a fallacy.


It was you in the first place who claimed Ay had a plan. 


Hi no Ishi said:


> The Summoner first smears their DNA on a contract just like any other summon. It's the only reason they can summon other people anyway.


Why would they? ET are caster's puppets.
Also, neither Orochimaru, nor Kabuto and let alone bloodless Muu and Mangetsu didn't use their blood for summoning.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Not just stronger, "unsurpassable".
> Not a thing you say about someone you think you have a chance against.


And what do you put in that word?
Ay couldn't kill Minato, who mocked Ay's speed with FTG, so what about saying so?


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 12, 2018)

Architect said:


> Because it's impossible.
> I've already proven that in our original place of arguement when I posted several pictures showing CN was present.


 lol, you showed the same lightning effect he is hit by still being on him. 
He gets shocked (which you also claimed did not happen earlier) and pushed back with the same lightning effect still on him.
At what point do you actually see the marks of a different jutsu? 
Especially when the lightning on him looks just like the lightning Darui is spitting?

Even you have admitted there is no real indication of a separate jutsu starting.


Architect said:


> I myself wrote Minato is faster than the first three Hokages. But you are trying to prove Minato is way or significantly faster than others, thus you have to prove it to claim so. And all you do is throw moments where no indication of such superiority can be seen.
> Indeed Minato is. He has FTG after all.


Again, you see the fastest people in the manga compliment his Shunshin directly like Obito and Tobirama, as well. 

You have 0 reasons to believe otherwise.


Architect said:


> It was you in the first place who claimed Ay had a plan.


He attacked at his full speed and power based off of intel he had at the start of the fight. 
His intel decided how he fought. That's called planning. 

As we see with Sasuke, even with KI A4 does not just start off in V2. He did that because there aren't any other good options vs Minato. 
Go as hard as you can and hope for the best. 


Now if you can't think of a better plan, why do you assume he had a bad one?


Architect said:


> Why would they? ET are caster's puppets.
> Also, neither Orochimaru, nor Kabuto and let alone bloodless Muu and Mangetsu didn't use their blood for summoning.


What? They put the person's DNA on a contract and that summons the soul the first time. 
That's how the user gains control in the first place. 


Architect said:


> And what do you put in that word?
> Ay couldn't kill Minato, who mocked Ay's speed with FTG, so what about saying so?


Again it's an additional piece of evidence for his level. 

You can't keep saying " What forest? That's just a tree, and that's just a tree, and that one and these over here are all individual trees with no relation. Same as all the other trees around me. Nope no forest here"


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## Architect (Mar 12, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> lol, you showed the same lightning effect he is hit by still being on him.
> He gets shocked (which you also claimed did not happen earlier) and pushed back with the same lightning effect still on him.
> At what point do you actually see the marks of a different jutsu?
> Especially when the lightning on him looks just like the lightning Darui is spitting?
> ...





Hi no Ishi said:


> Again, you see the fastest people in the manga compliment his Shunshin directly like Obito and Tobirama, as well.
> 
> You have 0 reasons to believe otherwise.


Just read properly what I wrote.


Hi no Ishi said:


> He attacked at his full speed and power based off of intel he had at the start of the fight.
> His intel decided how he fought. That's called planning.
> 
> As we see with Sasuke, even with KI A4 does not just start off in V2. He did that because there aren't any other good options vs Minato.
> ...



Doing what you basically do against any other shinobi is a plan?



Hi no Ishi said:


> What? They put the person's DNA on a contract and that summons the soul the first time.
> That's how the user gains control in the first place.


And what's stopping ET from summonning other ET?


Hi no Ishi said:


> Again it's an additional piece of evidence for his level.
> 
> You can't keep saying " What forest? That's just a tree, and that's just a tree, and that one and these over here are all individual trees with no relation. Same as all the other trees around me. Nope no forest here"


You are trying to extract more than there is and interprete it the way you want.


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 13, 2018)

So you literally have nothing from the manga or databook to back you up. Just you showing a picture of Sasuke having the same lightning effect Darui is spitting?   Lol. Just your gut feeling that's Nagashi?
 Ok.


Architect said:


> Just read properly what I wrote.


I did you are simply wrong. 


Architect said:


> Doing what you basically do against any other shinobi is a plan?


Oh, the politician approach! Dodge the question once again when you have no answer! 
Cute.

If you had read the manga recently or even the post you quoted you would know that almost _nobody_ including A starts off a fight with their fastest most powerful attack. 

Again even Bloodlusted A did not start of with V2 Lightning Straight vs Sasuke. 
He clearly did what he did based off of his intel and abilities when fighting Minato.



Architect said:


> And what's stopping ET from summonning other ET?


I don't know that they can't, like I said. 

I do know that the ET user is the one with the contracts though. 

Not that this is related to you saying he can't use his tag summoning through his ET which Tobirama clearly can.


Architect said:


> You are trying to extract more than there is and interprete it the way you want.


Nope. 
You are trying to pretend the manga is wrong about Minato and Tobirama being strong. 

We are trying to remind you that's silly.


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## Tom Servo (Mar 13, 2018)

Minato was stated to be more powerful than Orochimaru and the mere mention of his name practically made Killer Bee piss himself also defeating Tobi without a hitch and while on a crucial timer

Reactions: Like 2


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## Architect (Mar 14, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> So you literally have nothing from the manga or databook to back you up. Just you showing a picture of Sasuke having the same lightning effect Darui is spitting? Lol. Just your gut feeling that's Nagashi?
> Ok.


Show me where was Sasuke under the same effect Darui was spitting, when he got out of the water.


Hi no Ishi said:


> I did you are simply wrong.


No, I am not.
You have no real comparison between Minato's speed and others' to claim something else than he is somewhat faster than the first 3 hokages, of which I was aware from the very beginnig.


Hi no Ishi said:


> I don't know that they can't, like I said.
> I do know that the ET user is the one with the contracts though.


ET user performs a ritual to seal the soul of a dead person into a sacrifice. Nothing about summoning/teleporting already ritualized bodies being restricted to user's "hands".
Weren't you the one who brought that argument to prove something by saying only Kabuto could summon ET puppets, but as long as Muu/Zabuza could too, ET can perform any jutsu ET user does?
Tobirama can, but since ET summons don't possess that jutsu, he would spend his own chakra.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Nope.
> You are trying to pretend the manga is wrong about Minato and Tobirama being strong.
> 
> We are trying to remind you that's silly.


Yep.
People misuse the whole suprassing and other stuff, while not being able bring any real speed feats to prove something I didn't wrote about in my first post and also any offensive feats except for beating young Obito. They fall for misunderstood hype.


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 14, 2018)

Architect said:


> Show me where was Sasuke under the same effect Darui was spitting, when he got out of the water.


 dude. Again.

Look at the effect by the water Darui is spitting. Look at the first panel of him using lightning. 
How are those marks different?

Long thin bolts of electricity going in and coming out, with again 0 (zilch, Nada, none) evidence or indication of another jutsu being used. 



Architect said:


> No, I am not.
> You have no real comparison between Minato's speed and others' to claim something else than he is somewhat faster than the first 3 hokages, of which I was aware from the very beginnig.


Just the manga and DB telling me he is the fastest. 

Just his being much faster than the "Strongest soldiers of the Battlefield!"

 Just 2 former "Fastest Shinobi Alive" tell you he is faster. One of which was  complimenting his Shunshin directly twice.

B comparing Naruto's Shunshin to Minato's. 

Kakashi thinking BM speed was Minato.

Obito telling us after seeing his Shunshin both that he was super fast and had earned the name "Yellow Flash".

For the third time. What do you think the author was trying to tell you with all these and the other examples provided?


Architect said:


> ET user performs a ritual to seal the soul of a dead person into a sacrifice. Nothing about summoning/teleporting already ritualized bodies being restricted to user's "hands".


When has someone been able to use someone else contract in this manga?




Architect said:


> Tobirama can, but since ET summons don't possess that jutsu, he would spend his own chakra.


Stated no where. We know he uses ET to cast it, and like the summoning the ET use their own chakra to do it. As seen when Mu's fission has to charge for a while to Summon Madara.
And the databook scan I posted says that it was made to rival Susano'o so regardless of how long it last it can clearly do a shit ton of damage. 
He'll the thing was wrecking Torii seals from Hashirama that the Jubi struggled with.


Architect said:


> Yep.
> People misuse the whole suprassing and other stuff, while not being able bring any real speed feats to prove something I didn't wrote about in my first post and also any offensive feats except for beating young Obito. They fall for misunderstood hype.


Nope. 

You decided that their speed wasn't dangerous to Kage levels, when 2 sitting Kage and their equals are tripping all over themselves to tell you Minato is above them.
You thought Guiding Thunder wasn't more useful than dodging when it's shown on panel why it's way more useful. Like saving your village/comrades isn't the Kages job.

You decided that you know better than A and B did weather A was in danger or not.

You decided the same for Tobirama even after Madara tells you they were on the same level in life.
You acted like prep is a real factor in ET and that Tobirama couldn't use them to blow stuff up, when neither of those were true. 

You clearly are the one with a misunderstanding.

Reactions: Like 1


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## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2018)

Minato's physical speed and Shunshin speed allowed him to catch Kushina just in time before Kurama hits her. SM Naruto's clone couldnt physically react to Kurama's hit at all, only mentally. And his reaction was thinking of Kurama to be "so fast".

Minato was overall faster than 4th Raikage canonically, Ei admitted it. Furthermore, Minato easily managed to throw kunai in the air with his hand before Ei could hit him. And that happened when Ei was moving at him with his top speed, when Ei's fist was few inches from his face. Ei, moving at his top speed, was basicly a slowpoke for Yellow Flash.

He trashed a Sharingan user (Obito) with his Shunshin when he saved Naruto.

He managed to teleport away at the moment of explosive tags exploding (reaction speed feat).

He reacted on Juubidara's Gudoudama (so fast that double Kamui is necessary to avoid them) thrise at least, from what i remember, one time mentally and two times both mentally and physically when he threw kunai to Kakashi during Gudoudama's movement, and when he fell on the ground running during Gudoudama's movement. Well, if i remember correctly.

He also posesses faster Shunshin than Tobirama's, who's Shunshin was basicly faster than KCM (yeah, even faster than alive base Minato) Minato's physical speed, because Tobirama's clone shunshinned to Gudoudama before KCM Minato could catch it.

And that's his speed guys. Just his speed.

Add there the fact he is a sensory type. Add there the fact he has lots of jutsu. His Hiraishin (the jutsu, it's variations and it's seals which cant be removed), his summons (one of which can go toe-to-toe with 1-Tails for some time), his Rassengan, sealing jutsu, Sage Mode.

And here you go, a high kage level shinobi. Among usual ones, not godlikes as i call them, only very few can contend with him and beat him.

Tobirama has even greater physical speed (his performance against Juuboto and the fact he was the fastest shinobi overall during Hashirama's and Madara's prime time), Shunshin feat better than anything Fourth Raikage has ever shown on panel, Suiton, explosive tags and again, Hiraishin.

So yeah, another i'd say *high* kage level shinobi.


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## Icegaze (Mar 14, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> dude. Again.
> 
> Look at the effect by the water Darui is spitting. Look at the first panel of him using lightning.
> How are those marks different?
> ...



you wasting your time


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## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2018)

Well, Minato being underrated, a common thing actually. With Minato it's onle two paths usually - either he is "overrated", or he can blitz everyone left and right even when he doesnt have feats/hype/praise good enough to do so (alive Minato is not fast enough not just to blitz but to beat, lets say, Hashirama/EMS Madara in 1 on 1 combat, but Hussain thinks otherwise).

I was one of the people underrating him some time ago. I was wrong.

Minato's Shunshin is the fastest among "usual" shinobi, that's for sure. And his physical speed is among the fastest among "usuals". His praise, hype and feats - all of that proves he is *very good*.


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## Architect (Mar 14, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> dude. Again.
> 
> Look at the effect by the water Darui is spitting. Look at the first panel of him using lightning.
> How are those marks different?
> ...


The ones that were still intact on Sasuke after he got on his feet and no longer made contact with Water Wall were circling around, engulfing, wrapping him and were looking just like Chidori Nagashi.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Just the manga and DB telling me he is the fastest.
> 
> Just his being much faster than the "Strongest soldiers of the Battlefield!"
> 
> ...



With FTG he is fastest.
What are you talking about?
One is Tobirama who is fastest of his time due to FTG and complimented Minato's shunshin and the second?

If you think that's very impressive speed, making him faster than V2 Ay then I already debunked that by proving that could be a comparison to FTG.
And if you think that's shunshin
1) even Guy calls Sasuke's base speed, which is by 0.5+ points lower than Lee's "practically the same", let alone Bee would be able to tell the difference between shunshins.
2) V1 Ay = Darui = KM1 Naruto. Not impressive.

1) It's not like Kakashi is adequately reacting. He knew Minato was dead and ET were fighting against shinobi alliance. Even if he thought that was shunshin and even if it's ten times faster than Minato's shunshin, he would think of Minato as the only one who would be closer to this speed than others, not seeing V2 Ay's shunshin speed and knowing it wasn't Guy. Let's also do not forget about visual resemblence (Yellow - yellow, coat - coat) and Kishi's attempt to parallel Naruto with Minato.
2) He could be counting that as FTG.
3) If Minato had BM Naruto's shunshin speed he would simply speedblitz young Obito.

He says "leave it to the Yellow Flash" the first time and says "You really are a flash". Nothing about being much superior to others.



Hi no Ishi said:


> For the third time. What do you think the author was trying to tell you with all these and the other examples provided?


That FTG is cool and Minato is somewhat faster than the regular shinobi and first three hokages.



Hi no Ishi said:


> When has someone been able to use someone else contract in this manga?


Comparison is irrelevant.
ET summoning isn't a regular summoning. Summoners don't use blood for summoning and its critual differs from regular contract with animals.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Stated no where.


Nor was the opposite.


Hi no Ishi said:


> We know he uses ET to cast it, and like the summoning the ET use their own chakra to do it. As seen when Mu's fission has to charge for a while to Summon Madara.


We can't say ET summoning is a jutsu restricted only to caster.


Hi no Ishi said:


> And the databook scan I posted says that it was made to rival Susano'o so regardless of how long it last it can clearly do a shit ton of damage.



The guy just speculates about it.
And also, only the jutsu of ET Tobirama had such scale.


Hi no Ishi said:


> You decided that their speed wasn't dangerous to Kage levels, when 2 sitting Kage and their equals are tripping all over themselves to tell you Minato is above them.


Having somewhat greater speed =/= posing threat.


Hi no Ishi said:


> You thought Guiding Thunder wasn't more useful than dodging when it's shown on panel why it's way more useful. Like saving your village/comrades isn't the Kages job.


Wrong, I wrote:


Architect said:


> Indeed, Minato's FTG barrier based defence is impressive when it comes to protecting others, but I don't see what else could it give personally to him what self-teleportation couldn't, given it requires hand seals.





Hi no Ishi said:


> You decided that you know better than A and B did weather A was in danger or not.


When Sasuke attacked Raikage, Darui interfered and pushed him back. Sasuke coudln't harm Ay with the same attack later. Itachi protected Sasuke with Susanoo yet Sasuke could protect himself on his own.


Hi no Ishi said:


> You decided the same for Tobirama even after Madara tells you they were on the same level in life.


I don't know what are you talking about, but Kakashi were confident he could kill Sasuke, but was ready to fall after his first attack.


Hi no Ishi said:


> You clearly are the one with a misunderstanding.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2018)

Architect said:


> With FTG he is fastest.



Oh, this type of logic again?

*You cant be the fastest shinobi of your time if you are slower than others but can get somewhere faster than others due to one jutsu you possess.* That's just plain stupid, logically.

A boxer can have a super-fast jab but mediocre/slow in other aspects of boxing. He just trained jab so hard it's realy fast. Can you call him the fastest boxer only because of his super-fast jab? Of course you cant.

Furthermore, Ei analysed Hiraishin during his confrontation with Minato. He knew how the technique works. If Minato outmanevoured him only due to Hiraishin, Ei would say something like "Minato was faster than me due to the jutsu he possessed", or "Your father outmanevoured me with the odd Shunshin he had", etc.

But no, he simply stated that:

1. He was the fastest shinobi now when Minato is dead.
2. There has never been any shinobi like Minato.

There wouldnt be such a praise from Raikage if only FTG was the case.

Hell, when Ei used top speed and was few inches from Minato with his fist, Minato was fast enough to throw kunai in the air, FTG to the tree, sit on the tree, FTG to Ei and get ready to strike. V2 Ei was a slowpoke compared to him.

Dude just stop. You are clearly lowballing the character.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 14, 2018)

Architect said:


> The ones that were still intact on Sasuke after he got on his feet and no longer made contact with Water Wall were circling around, engulfing, wrapping him and were looking just like Chidori Nagashi.



Yes looking exactly like the jutsu as it leaves Darui. 
Because it's still the same jutsu.



Architect said:


> With FTG he is fastest.


Your biased assumption.
Having FTG but not the speed to do anything once you are there is useless.


Architect said:


> One is Tobirama who is fastest of his time due to FTG and complimented Minato's shunshin and the second?


Again a modifier you added. 
A is also the "Fastest Shinobi" until Naruto steals that title from him.




Architect said:


> If you think that's very impressive speed, making him faster than V2 Ay then I already debunked that by proving that could be a comparison to FTG.


Saying "could be" to everything is not proving the manga wrong.



Architect said:


> 1) even Guy calls Sasuke's base speed, which is by 0.5+ points lower than Lee's "practically the same", let alone Bee would be able to tell the difference between shunshins.


What?


Architect said:


> V1 Ay = Darui = KM1 Naruto.


How did Naruto get into that equation lol


Architect said:


> Not impressive


Again. Your biased opinion. Everyone else in the manga was impressed lol. Why do you count more.


Architect said:


> It's not like Kakashi is adequately reacting. He knew Minato was dead and ET were fighting against shinobi alliance. Even if he thought that was shunshin and even if it's ten times faster than Minato's shunshin, he would think of Minato as the only one who would be closer to this speed than others, not seeing V2 Ay's shunshin speed and knowing it wasn't Guy.


So people are well aware he is known for great Shunshin to but you are still pretending?


Architect said:


> Let's also do not forget about visual resemblence (Yellow - yellow, coat - coat) and Kishi's attempt to parallel Naruto with Minato.


Yes, now think.
 If having super fast Shunshin reminds everyone who sees it of Minato + and Naruto using Shunshin super fast is a parallel  + he much is faster than the other Hokages  (being able to arrive, surround the Jubi in Kunai, and save everyone by moving a Jubi Dama to get another kunai out in the ocean that he also placed before the others could arrive)+ literally having a dude call him the yellow flash over his Shunshin twice, + a guy faster than Madara in life call him faster= What about his Shunshin now?

Do you think those were all accidentally in the manga?


Architect said:


> 2) He could be counting that as FTG.


Lol just stop it. 
FTG does not leave streaks of yellow. 
You literally have B and Kakashi both mention Minato's speed when they see Naruto's movement and both knew it wasn't FTG.

Just face it.


Architect said:


> 3) If Minato had BM Naruto's shunshin


Stop just throwing shit at the walls to see what sticks. 

Blitz an intangible guy? Someone you have to make attack you in order to hurt?

Really?

Is that what you think the problem was?


Architect said:


> He says "leave it to the Yellow Flash" the first time and says "You really are a flash".


Yes because his name is because of him being fast in every department, reactions, striking, thinking, Shunshin and FTG.


Architect said:


> That FTG is cool and Minato is somewhat faster than the regular shinobi and first three hokages.


So if you are faster than everyone else alive or dead, your still not fast in Downplay World? Jeez.


Architect said:


> Nor was the opposite.


Thats because assuming a thing with no evidence is a fallacy.

Again the Summoned don't use the summoners chakra. Edo Mu had to charge up his own chakra to summon Madara once again. 


Architect said:


> Wrong, I wrote:


I saw what you wrote. You said you don't see how it benefits him personally Vs self teleportation when it's obvious even from it's first showing that it can save an area rather than just one person. 
As the Hokage how is that not way more useful?


Architect said:


> When Sasuke attacked Raikage, Darui interfered and pushed him back. Sasuke coudln't harm Ay with the same attack later. Itachi protected Sasuke with Susanoo yet Sasuke could protect himself on his own.


Did A apologize to B for having to be saved? Yep. 

They both knew the deal and it leaves a permanent impression on them. As you have been shown repeatedly in this thread.


Architect said:


> I don't know what are you talking about, but Kakashi were confident he could kill Sasuke, but was ready to fall after his first attack.



When RT Madara was talking to Tobirama he flat out states that they were on the same level in life.

Your comparison is the opposite situation.


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## Bonly (Mar 14, 2018)

Architect said:


> *FTG?*
> Minato's only offensive feats with it are tricking young Obito with FTG v2 and getting behind bullrushing Ay (which would basically achieve nothing).
> Anyone who doesn't witlessly charges at the opponent and whose intellectual ablilities are not lower than Bee's and who also has not bad reaction wouldn't see FTG as much of a threat.
> Tobirama killed Izuna via Hiraishingiri under unknown circumstances. He also TP-ed to the seal on Obito placed by his clone, which most probably would got poofed before it could do anything, if it was alive Tobirama.
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 













This is why FTG is so dangerous. A mark never fades even after the person has been dead for 17 years(unless one becomes a Juubi Jin apparently) so this means that if a person gets touched by either Minato or Tobi then they will always be marked and opened to attacks. As we also see Minato can teleport into an attacking motion to when he uses FTG such as the two times he attacked Obito which is why being marked is dangerous as the second your guard is down you can be attack fatally wounded or badly wounded. And last but not least we see Minato placed a tag on his Rasengan and that marked Obito so you also have to worry about jutsu being tagged when attacked. 

FTG usage isn't only about the use of kunai which indeed to help and make them dangerous but it's also about the use of the markings themselves while at the same time how dangerous being marked actually is.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Marsala (Mar 14, 2018)

Silnaem said:


> Didn't he give themcto Madara while they were in their room, or is that anime filler?



That was in the manga but it was false history presented by Itachi. Izuna was the one who was dying, even if Madara was approaching blindness then.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Architect (Mar 14, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Yes looking exactly like the jutsu as it leaves Darui.
> Because it's still the same jutsu.


So, you just gonna deny it? I think you can't be helped. It's just like CN.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Your biased assumption.
> Having FTG but not the speed to do anything once you are there is useless.


Instant TP > Any speed.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Again a modifier you added.


Madara said so.


Hi no Ishi said:


> A is also the "Fastest Shinobi" until Naruto steals that title from him.


I for some reason thought of another dead shinobi


Hi no Ishi said:


> Saying "could be" to everything is not proving the manga wrong.


Better than saying "Minato is fastest because of shunshin!!!11". Either way (FTG or shunshin) it's not proving his OMG speed.


Hi no Ishi said:


> So people are well aware he is known for great Shunshin to but you are still pretending?


Stop it. I've told you many times his shunshin is > regular shinobi's/first three hokages. We just can't say by how much. I wrote in the head post why I don't think there's drastic difference.


Hi no Ishi said:


> If having super fast Shunshin reminds everyone who sees it of Minato + and Naruto using Shunshin super fast is a parallel + he much is faster than the other Hokages (being able to arrive, surround the Jubi in Kunai, and save everyone by moving a Jubi Dama to get another kunai out in the ocean that he also placed before the others could arrive)+ literally having a dude call him the yellow flash over his Shunshin twice, + a guy faster than Madara in life call him faster= What about his Shunshin now?
> 
> Do you think those were all accidentally in the manga?


I don't think long time past between Minato's reaching Juubi/ocean and Hokages' arrival.
Tobirama isn't faster than Madara shunshin wise.


Hi no Ishi said:


> FTG does not leave streaks of yellow.


1) He didn't react adequately.
2) Did Kakashi saw those trails? All he saw is someone's silhouette that resembled Minato.


Hi no Ishi said:


> You literally have B and Kakashi both mention Minato's speed when they see Naruto's movement and both knew it wasn't FTG.
> 
> Just face it.


Firstly, what Kakashi and Bee said:
"Master?..."
"Just like Yellow Flash"
Secondly, you were the one who said Bee couldn't even react to Naruto's movement.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Stop just throwing shit at the walls to see what sticks.
> 
> Blitz an intangible guy? Someone you have to make attack you in order to hurt?
> 
> ...


Gai and Kakashi didn't even see what happened when Naruto from afar deflected TBBs. Imagine what would happen to Obito if Minato could attack at the same speed from like 5 to 10 meter or what was the distance between them.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Yes because his name is because of him being fast in every department, reactions, striking, thinking, Shunshin and FTG.


Yet nothing about being way faster than Shodai to Sandai.
Also, his reaction is good, but he barely reacts to young Ay.


Hi no Ishi said:


> So if you are faster than everyone else alive or dead, your still not fast in Downplay World? Jeez.


He is not faster than Guy, Ay, Naruto without FTG.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Thats because assuming a thing with no evidence is a fallacy.
> 
> Again the Summoned don't use the summoners chakra. Edo Mu had to charge up his own chakra to summon Madara once again.


I know they are different.
And what does it change? You are writing the same shit over and over not being able to realize this is not what I am talking about. Same thing with Minato's speed, forcing me try to make you understand I ask for proofs of his signifanct superiority in speed to the first three hokages, not just for he is fast or somewhat faster than them.


Hi no Ishi said:


> I saw what you wrote. You said you don't see how it benefits him personally Vs self teleportation when it's obvious even from it's first showing that it can save an area rather than just one person.
> As the Hokage how is that not way more useful?



You just wrote that you realize I was talking about self defence which is the only thing that is relevant here in BD except for some special threads and yet you bring protecting others stuff?


Hi no Ishi said:


> Did A apologize to B for having to be saved? Yep.
> 
> They both knew the deal and it leaves a permanent impression on them. As you have been shown repeatedly in this thread


Well, I went to reread 542-543 again.
1) I was lazy to check it when you convinced me A and B came prepared there.
"So it's him...The shinobi that stopped our nine tails recovery!".
"You are unruly Ay, son of kumogakure's third Raikage...I've heard you are quite fast yourself".
They obviously didn't fought before.
Ay knew Minato isn't weak and he didn't know about what exactly Minato could do.
2)  Back toprevious matter
.


Hi no Ishi said:


> When RT Madara was talking to Tobirama he flat out states that they were on the same level in life.


source?


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## Architect (Mar 14, 2018)

Bonly said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know.


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## Architect (Mar 14, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> How did Naruto get into that equation lol


He couldn't outspeed V1 Ay. All he managed to do is to dodge in the last moment.
They are around the same level.


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## Icegaze (Mar 14, 2018)

Naruto dodges Ay fastest punch 
Point blank
Yet naruto = Ay V1

We are getting somewhere here 

Loving how I keep reading without hirashin without hirashin 
Guess what but he has it though
Therefore he is the fastest hence 
High tier 

/thread

Reactions: Like 2


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## Architect (Mar 14, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> Naruto dodges Ay fastest punch
> Point blank
> Yet naruto = Ay V1


he reacted the last moment and slightly moved his body from the line
how does leg speed relate here...


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## Icegaze (Mar 14, 2018)

Architect said:


> he reacted the last moment and slightly moved his body from the line
> how does leg speed relate here...



HE appeared more than a couple of feet behind Ay

Ay didn’t let him go simply because he thought oh naruto can match my V1 speed 

That would be daft 

Naruto avoiding him as easily as Minato can shows naruto became his superior 

Hence the GO and save us 
Implication at the end of that chapter


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## Bonly (Mar 14, 2018)

Architect said:


> I know.



It doesn't seem like it when you say "Anyone who doesn't witlessly charges at the opponent and whose intellectual ablilities are not lower than Bee's and who also has not bad reaction wouldn't see FTG as much of a threat." followed by only talking about kunai being thrown


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 14, 2018)

Architect said:


> So, you just gonna deny it? I think you can't be helped. It's just like CN.
> 
> Instant TP > Any speed.
> 
> ...


Ok getting tired of going around in circles with you. 

You are still pretending that Minato isn't that big a threat when people declared " truly worthy of the title Kage" by the hater of the century Madara tell you he is above them. 

You somehow don't realize the FTG marks are called Shunshin too and thus translated as Teleportation. Obito says this in 501 about Minato's seal on Kushina and two shinobi call it that when Tobirama teleports them out of danger in the war. 
2 seconds of research would have told you this. 

You know he has;
1. better reactions than A, (several moves in the time it takes for one from A)
2. Title worthy Shunshin, (When characters get fast Shunshin they get compared to Minato, Obito's and 
3. A Rasengan that craters and trampstamps you for life,
4. A boss summon,
5. Strength enough to bisect a Gyuki tentacle with a short kunai,
6. Seals,
7. Barriers,
8. Clones
9. Ridiculous kunai speed.
10. 2 Great Nations who's shinobi know to just run. 

If you think a guy who can razzle dazzle V2 A with his speed and tricks can be reacted to Deidara types who were getting caught by BoS Naruto I don't know what to tell you.

You doubt Tobirama; a dude with too many strong jutsu who could Kill Izuna and who wiped out battlefields with ET in Madara's day.

I don't know what your criteria for high Kage  is or how you convinced your self the whole world was crazy but let's just agree to disagree. 

Have a good night.


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> You are still pretending that Minato isn't that big a threat when people declared " truly worthy of the title Kage" by the hater of the century Madara tell you he is above them.


what?


Hi no Ishi said:


> 1. better reactions than A, (several moves in the time it takes for one from A)


wrong. Ay reacted to the kunai left near him almost immediately. Him not managing to do something while bullrushing doesn't speak much in comparison to Minato, since Bee managed to intercept in time.


Hi no Ishi said:


> Strength enough to bisect a Gyuki tentacle with a short kunai,


He isn't known for strength and Bee's tentacles aren't for stoutness, they on contrary are cut by something isn't strong enough to go deeper than 10 cm into Kakashi's Mud Wall.


Hi no Ishi said:


> 8. Clones





Hi no Ishi said:


> If you think a guy who can razzle dazzle V2 A with his speed and tricks can be reacted to Deidara types who were getting caught by BoS Naruto I don't know what to tell you.


Tricking young Ay to whom he could do nothing isn't that much.
Yet Deidara reacted to this 1-1.5 meters apart.




Hi no Ishi said:


> You doubt Tobirama; a dude with too many strong jutsu who could Kill Izuna and who wiped out battlefields with ET in Madara's day.


He killed Izuna under unknown circumstances.


Hi no Ishi said:


> who wiped out battlefields with ET in Madara's day.


He didn't wiped out battlefields. Madara just states "that was the original point of Edo Tensei, to take others with you".
Sasuke wiped out battlefield by himself without any ET, sparing most if not all of shinobi.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> wrong. Ay reacted to the kunai left near him almost immediately. Him not managing to do something while bullrushing doesn't speak much in comparison to Minato, since Bee managed to intercept in time.



Not just Bee but Hachibi's tail, who blocked Amaterasu with one of his tails during Bee's confrontation with Taka. Damn fast tails yeah. Not to mention interception feats do not prove anything in most cases. Kappa

And yeah - while Ei uses his top speed, bullrushes and tries to punch, Minato, being few inches from Ei's fist, can throw kunai in the air, FTG to a tree nearby, sit on the tree, FTG back to Ei and prep for the strike to Ei's back. 

Ei was basicly frozen in comparison to Minato. V2 Ei, i might add. And he admitted his overall speed inferiority to Minato. Again - there wouldnt be such a praise from Ei if just FTG was the case.

Dude, you got nulled. Stop lowballing the character so much. 

But if you disagree i have something for you. War Arc SM Naruto's clone couldnt physically react to Kurama's hit because it was, according to War Arc SM Naruto's clone thoughts, "so fast!".

When Kurama attacked Kushina, when his paw was few meters from Kushina, Minato FTG'ed there, grabbed Kushina and shunshinned away out of that area on 30+ distance at the very least before Kurama hit the rock with his paw.

Now i'd like to see a comparable Shunshin feat from V2 Ei.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> what?
> 
> wrong. Ay reacted to the kunai left near him almost immediately. Him not managing to do something while bullrushing doesn't speak much in comparison to Minato, since Bee managed to intercept in time.
> 
> ...



Young obito and young Ay have much better reactions than deidara 
Yet they couldn’t react to hirashin
Aren’t you proving Minato Is high tier ?
I mean if sasuke god like speed can be reacted to yet
Minato attack beat people with much better reactions than deidara 

Just saying 
You digging

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> HE appeared more than a couple of feet behind Ay


So are you trying to say Naruto didn't simply avoid Ay's rush, but jumped from the point he was when Raikage approached him? Wrong. Naruto was running like 10ft from the rock and when Ay missed, he ended up crushing that rock and thus there was distance between them.


Icegaze said:


> Ay didn’t let him go simply because he thought oh naruto can match my V1 speed
> 
> That would be daft
> 
> ...



Implication was that Naruto would be okay if he can react to and dodge even Ay's fastest rush.


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> Young obito and young Ay have much better reactions than deidara
> Yet they couldn’t react to hirashin
> Aren’t you proving Minato Is high tier ?
> I mean if sasuke god like speed can be reacted to yet
> Minato attack beat people with much better reactions than deidara


Ay reacted the moment Minato teleported at the tree.
Obito let kunai phase through him and got tricked by FTG v2.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> Ay reacted the moment Minato teleported at the tree.
> Obito let kunai phase through him and got tricked by FTG v2.



Obito got straight up blitz after the rasengan 
I mean straight and horrendously blitz 

Ay didn't react jack shit
Why didn't he try to block 
He just let his back open to attack for fun ?

Also you dodging the question if sasuke got god like speed yet deidara can react 1m away 

While minato is blitzing obito 
Then what does that tell you ?

We also then see in boruto sasuke S/T and throwing a weapon allowing him to get behind a god 
But somehow minato is not high tier while he can do the same thing?

 

Or let's forget the whole appearing in front of madara quicker than kakashi can kamui obito

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> So are you trying to say Naruto didn't simply avoid Ay's rush, but jumped from the point he was when Raikage approached him? Wrong. Naruto was running like 10ft from the rock and when Ay missed, he ended up crushing that rock and thus there was distance between them.
> 
> 
> Implication was that Naruto would be okay if he can react to and dodge even Ay's fastest rush.



naruto was less than 1 m in front of the rock. so if all he did was shift his body slightly for Ay to Miss why on earth is he so far away from him. unless Ay drilled through the rock and kept moving even after he noticed he missed naruto. 

in any case kishi showed the reader naruto can avoid Ay speed without issue. something minato was known to do. 

i cant understand your grippe here, the author has gone through hyping minato reactions and speed so many times its almost boring


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> Obito got straight up blitz after the rasengan
> I mean straight and horrendously blitz





Icegaze said:


> Also you dodging the question if sasuke got god like speed yet deidara can react 1m away
> While minato is blitzing obito
> Then what does that tell you ?


Minato tped to the FTG seal he placed on Obito.



Icegaze said:


> Ay didn't react jack shit
> Why didn't he try to block
> He just let his back open to attack for fun ?



Minato got behind him 1 divided by infinite second after that.



Icegaze said:


> We also then see in boruto sasuke S/T and throwing a weapon allowing him to get behind a god
> But somehow minato is not high tier while he can do the same thing?


Dunno what are you trying to tell here. You said Obito wasn't able to react to FTG (yes, he couldn't when he was already tagged but I don't think this is the case we are discussing). Obito despite having seen that Minato in order to get free from the chains tped to the place his marked kunai was and despite reacting to kunai and letting it phase through him, decided to ignore (or what was on his mind?) it and payed for that.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> Minato tped to the FTG seal he placed on Obito.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



why wont someone already  tagged be the case we are discussing seeing that they can be tagged at any point during an exchange? that is part of the hirashin technique which is what minato is known for.

in short obito got blitz when tagged.

Ay mentally reacted but couldnt physically react to when minato got behind him. hence minato in short blitz him

you are again dodging the issue, you brought up sasuke speed. and i have shown you minato "SPEED" exceeds that by far. hence minato is high tier.

hirahsin is part of minato speed, in the same way RCM makes part of Ay speed


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> naruto was less than 1 m in front of the rock. so if all he did was shift his body slightly for Ay to Miss why on earth is he so far away from him. unless Ay drilled through the rock and kept moving even after he noticed he missed naruto.


 


Icegaze said:


> in any case kishi showed the reader naruto can avoid Ay speed without issue. something minato was known to do.


Naruto had good reaction here but not V2 Ay's speed.


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> why wont someone already tagged be the case we are discussing seeing that they can be tagged at any point during an exchange? that is part of the hirashin technique which is what minato is known for.
> 
> in short obito got blitz when tagged.


Minato owned CIS Obito, while young Bee who tried to "save" Ay was able to counter FTG after seeing it once.


Icegaze said:


> Ay mentally reacted but couldnt physically react to when minato got behind him. hence minato in short blitz him





Icegaze said:


> you are again dodging the issue, you brought up sasuke speed. and i have shown you minato "SPEED" exceeds that by far. hence minato is high tier.
> 
> hirahsin is part of minato speed, in the same way RCM makes part of Ay speed


You know, it's hard to do anything against something of an infinite speed while bullrushing.


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## Azula (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> Implication was that Naruto would be okay if he can react to and dodge even Ay's fastest rush.



He dodged by outrunning A. He moved so fast he appeared to be a yellow flash,a blur.  

Read the whole thing before bringing out pixel measurements.


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> He dodged by outrunning A. He moved so fast he appeared to be a yellow flash,a blur.
> 
> Read the whole thing before bringing out pixel measurements.


What A and B meant there is that naruto moved (shifted) before Ay could hit him. Pictures shows us that pretty clearly.
If any flash was present, it wouldn't be longer than 20-40 cm sideways.


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## Azula (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> What B meant there is that naruto moved (shifted) before Ay could hit him. Pictures shows us that pretty clearly.
> If any flash was present, it wouldn't be longer than 20-40 cm sideways.


 
He outran A and is faster than V2 A.

If you disagree state clearly this "shifting/moving" happening because I can't follow you.


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> He outran A and is faster than V2 A.
> 
> If you disagree state clearly this "shifting/moving" happening can't follow you. What is this new type of movement.


Okay.
Something like this.

It's similiar to this:





Also, I know this is a shonen, but going from being slower or equal to V1 A to becoming faster than V2 Ay makes no sense.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> Minato owned CIS Obito, while young Bee who tried to "save" Ay was able to counter FTG after seeing it once.
> 
> 
> You know, it's hard to do anything against something of an infinite speed while bullrushing.



interception feat is hardly legit. suigetsu was able to block Ay hit when he was less than 1m away from sasuke despite being no where close before. 

excuses though as minato is faster than Ay by Ay own admission


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> Okay.
> Something like this.
> 
> It's similiar to this:
> ...



its shonen 
you answered your own confusion

KCM naruto is faster than Ay that was the point of the chapter


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> interception feat is hardly legit.


Not always. Rin commiting suicide via Kakashi and Gai with Lee kicking Haku aren't much of feats.
But hey, we don't really know what was Suigetsu doing while guys were fighting lightning genjutsu and those panels didn't really show lot of space.
Raikage and Darui arrived there with their shunshins, but stopped and attacked Sasuke barehandedly/with sword, preparing for the attack with a wide swing.
I think saying that Minato's OMG striking speed isn't greater than stretching out a tentacle is pretty legit.


Icegaze said:


> excuses though as minato is faster than Ay by Ay own admission


FTG's infinite speed grants him such superiority,


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> its shonen
> you answered your own confusion


And you replied to the additional notion, ignoring the main message body.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> Not always. Rin commiting suicide via Kakashi and Gai with Lee kicking Haku aren't much of feats.
> But hey, we don't really know what was Suigetsu doing while guys were fighting lightning genjutsu and those panels didn't really show lot of space.
> Raikage and Darui arrived there with their shunshins, but stopped and attacked Sasuke barehandedly/with sword, preparing for the attack with a wide swing.
> I think saying that Minato's OMG striking speed isn't greater than stretching out a tentacle is pretty legit.
> ...



yes FTG grants him such. something he always has
therefore he is superior 
and is high tier


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## Azula (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> I know this is a shonen, but going from being slower or equal to V1 A to becoming faster than V2 Ay makes no sense.



Naruto has a lot more chakra than A who is merely Hachibi level.Naruto can out speed A because of this.
Naruto is faster than V2 A.

It happens in the middle of battle because that's how shonen progress with MC improving in battle.


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> yes FTG grants him such. something he always has
> therefore he is superior
> and is high tier


It's not like he can blitz/trick


> Anyone who doesn't witlessly charges at the opponent and whose intellectual ablilities are not lower than Bee's and who also has not bad reaction


, unlike Ay
So, no


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> It's not like he can blitz/trick
> , unlike Ay
> So, no



and yet he did blitz trick in kishi manga
but hey 
perhaps not in yours 

crazy how he uses hirashin twice before 8G gai can move but you want to ignore that
or how we see hirashin allows someone as weak as Sm naruto to straight up blitz juubito but again you want to ignore that

it seems regardless of what is said here you dont want to think he is high tier. so let me ask you this what is the point of your thread?


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> Naruto has a lot more chakra than A who is merely Hachibi level.Naruto can out speed A because of this.
> Naruto is faster than V2 A.


1) He goes to KM2 when he applies more chakra, ain't he?
2) Half Kurama KM1 Naruto having more chakra than Hachibi...I don't know.
3) It's not only about chakra banks. By your logic Kisame should be faster than Itachi with his shunshin.


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## Azula (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> 1) He goes to KM2 when he applies more chakra, ain't he?
> 2) Half Kurama KM1 Naruto having more chakra than Hachibi...I don't know.
> 3) It's not only about chakra banks. By your logic Kisame should be faster than Itachi with his shunshin.



Even half Kurama has more chakra than all other bijuus, he matched 5 bijuus, Hachibi was getting wrecked.

Kisame didn't get Speed related powers, Naruto did, that's kishi's decision.

Raikage and Naruto both use their huge chakra to fuel their shunshin, Naruto beats him both at chakra and speed.


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> and yet he did blitz trick in kishi manga
> but hey
> perhaps not in yours


Poor CIS Obito.


Icegaze said:


> crazy how he uses hirashin twice before 8G gai can move but you want to ignore that


I don't remember the entire K, G, N, B vs Obito+ manga well, but I'm sure there aren't any revelations.


Icegaze said:


> or how we see hirashin allows someone as weak as Sm naruto to straight up blitz juubito but again you want to ignore that


If you are sure you interprete whatever instance you reffered right way, you can bring it here.


Icegaze said:


> it seems regardless of what is said here you dont want to think he is high tier. so let me ask you this what is the point of your thread?


Several reasons:
1) I was profoundly wondering why do people think of FTG hokages so high and made thread to read what folks would say.
2) To state my arguments why they aren't that cool and help people to break free of their delusions in case I am right.
3) Or to change my opinion in case I am wrong. But people failed to prove almost anything I didn't wrote about except for them being misleaded by many reasons.


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> Kisame didn't get Speed related powers, Naruto did, that's kishi's decision.


Everyone has shunshin.


-Azula- said:


> Raikage and Naruto both use their huge chakra to fuel their shunshin, Naruto beats him both at chakra and speed.


By your logic, there would be no speed cap for A. Well, it would be, but his max speed would be the one that would require all of his chakra at once. Yet when he or others say he is at his max speed, he doesn't seem to collapse after his shunshin, spending all of his chakra.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> Poor CIS Obito.
> 
> I don't remember the entire K, G, N, B vs Obito+ manga well, but I'm sure there aren't any revelations.
> 
> ...





so you dont remember it well yet you are sure there are no revelations. you understand the paradox of your sentence right

keep digging

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> so you dont remember it well yet you are sure there are no revelations. you understand the paradox of your sentence right
> 
> keep digging


I skimmed it several times for different moments , yet I don't remember any of FTG hokages "feats" impressing me.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> I skimmed it several times for different moments , yet I don't remember any of FTG hokages "feats" impressing me.



so SM naruto using tobirama hirashin to blitz obito 10 tails jin isnt impressive?
or minato using hirashin twice before 8G gai can move isnt impressive?


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## Azula (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> Everyone has shunshin.



Not every character focuses on speed, Kisame has the water and shark theme for his character.

You logic is wrong and you can't fault the manga for that.



Architect said:


> By your logic, there would be no speed cap for A. Well, it would be, but his max speed would be the one that would require all of his chakra at once. Yet when he or others say he is at his max speed, he doesn't seem to collapse after his shunshin, spending all of his chakra





What is this garbled imagination of our logic?

A has bijuu level chakra and he has trained himself for Speed.
Naruto got Speed focused powers once he can tap into huge chakra reserves.

Other characters do not focus on speed. They cannot use their chakra reserves to become speed demons.

How much portion of chakra they use for single shunshin is not clear, you can imagine and though experiment yourself, it's not relevant much.


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> so SM naruto using tobirama hirashin to blitz obito 10 tails jin isnt impressive?


Obito got tagged because of ET in the first place, so it's not like alive Tobirama can replicate that.
I remember that it took Minato+Tobirama+Sasuke+Naruto to blitz (?) Obito, not sure which moment you are talking about.


Icegaze said:


> or minato using hirashin twice before 8G gai can move isnt impressive?


Okay let's try to reconsider. I need scans for that to say anything.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> Obito got tagged because of ET in the first place, so it's not like alive Tobirama can replicate that.
> I remember that it took Minato+Tobirama+Sasuke+Naruto to blitz (?) Obito, not sure which moment you are talking about.
> 
> Okay let's try to reconsider. I need scans for that to say anything.



alive tobirama lacks clones ?? . 

sasuke and naruto took no part in the blitz. since it was all hirashin 

perhaps try read the manga you seem entirely ignorant of the manga you are discussing 

the fact that you think sasuke and naruto took any part in the actual blitz illustrates that

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> Not every character focuses on speed, Kisame has the water and shark theme for his character.
> 
> You logic is wrong and you can't fault the manga for that.


Doesn't matter. If shunshin was dependent only on chakra reserves, Kisame would be the fastest.


-Azula- said:


> What is this garbled imagination of our logic?
> 
> A has bijuu level chakra and he has trained himself for Speed.
> Naruto got Speed focused powers once he can tap into huge chakra reserves.
> ...


We know Ay is far from spending all of his chakra for his max shunshin. And he has cap of that max shunshin. Bringing chakra reserves is irrelevant.


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> alive tobirama lacks clones ??


And would got got poofed before they could do anything.


Icegaze said:


> sasuke and naruto took no part in the blitz. since it was all hirashin


1) Obito reacted here.

But got "distracted by what's going in fron of" him.

2) Tobirama says clones' FTG is dumb and they need both him and Minato for succesful FTG attack.



In the end I was right, wasn't worthy of my close attention.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> And would got got poofed before they could do anything.
> 
> 1) Obito reacted here.
> 
> ...




obito with rinnegan who is a 10 tails jin>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>every other high tier hero though. so your point is entirely foolish.

so obito reacting but failing to block the attack is proof that the technique is so hax minato and tobirama are high tier

a technique that was pivotal
- against 10 tail jins
- against kyuubi
- against juubi
- in the war
- against kamui

is an auto high tier jutsu. do you know of any other technique used by non god tiers that could have been pivotal in all those situations

Reactions: Like 1


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## Azula (Mar 15, 2018)

I am done.

KCM is not faster than V2 A
FTG against juubi jin isn't impressive or worthy of attention.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

to answer your question bluntly put as i understand you dont know much about the manga
a ninja with high tier jutsu is a high tier ninja
edo tensei and hirashin are 2 jutsu which have been emphasized in the war for their power and importance in battle
these techniques exceed the vast majority of other jutsu used by kage tier ninja
as such people wielding these jutsu are high tier ninja by default

your question is as silly as implying itachi isnt high tier, when susanoo in power and utility exceeds what most kage and mid tier ninja can do

btw please read my new manga. link in my sig

Reactions: Like 1


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> obito with rinnegan who is a 10 tails jin>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>every other high tier hero though. so your point is entirely foolish.





Icegaze said:


> so SM naruto using tobirama hirashin to blitz obito 10 tails jin isnt impressive?


MY POINT?!



Icegaze said:


> so obito reacting but failing to block the attack is proof that the technique is so hax minato and tobirama are high tier


Yeah. Failing to block an attack four shinobis were involved.


Icegaze said:


> is an auto high tier jutsu. do you know of any other technique used by non god tiers that could have been pivotal in all those situations


Like here at BD Minato needs to protect his village/aliiance or has Tobirama and reincarnated rivals at his side.


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## Azula (Mar 15, 2018)

The entire Akatsuki could be put against Juubi Jin Obito and they would get slaughtered.

The entire Edo Kage and the Gokage could be put against Juubi Jin Obito and they would get slaughtered.

Name a few "Mid/High Kage Level" that are impressive and worthy of your attention that can even survive a single attack from Obito.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

??
ill leave you to your confusion 

so in your definition hirashin isnt a high tier technique. please give me an example of one then let me laugh at your ignorance


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> The entire Akatsuki could be put against Juubi Jin Obito and they would get slaughtered.
> 
> The entire Edo Kage and the Gokage could be put against Juubi Jin Obito and they would get slaughtered.
> 
> Name a few "Mid/High Kage Level" that are impressive and worthy of your attention that can even survive a single attack from Obito.



this should be fun

i really want to hear what this guy has to say here

you replace tobirama and minato with 2 mid tiers and tell me how they would have faired against obito

now thats what i want to see.

this is where his ignorance reveals itself


No need for a thread but it should be obvious even to the blind that 

kisame+deidara+sasori+kakuzu+konan wouldnt even make non juubito obito need to move. 

talking alot less about a 10 tail jin with rinnegan


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 15, 2018)

This isn't based on reason anymore guys. 

He is well aware these guys are high tier, it just does not fit his original position and thus he can't admit it. 

He knows only top class shinobi could even begin to fight Jubito without being wiped out imeadiatly just as well as any of us.


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> ??
> ill leave you to your confusion
> 
> so in your definition hirashin isnt a high tier technique. please give me an example of one then let me laugh at your ignorance


I wrote what I wrote. No less, no more.


-Azula- said:


> The entire Akatsuki could be put against Juubi Jin Obito and they would get slaughtered.
> 
> The entire Edo Kage and the Gokage could be put against Juubi Jin Obito and they would get slaughtered.
> 
> Name a few "Mid/High Kage Level" that are impressive and worthy of your attention that can even survive a single attack from Obito.


No one can, except for Muu, maybe. Alive Tobirama and maybe Minato wouldn't too.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> This isn't based on reason anymore guys.
> 
> He is well aware these guys are high tier, it just does not fit his original position and thus he can't admit it.
> 
> He knows only top class shinobi could even begin to fight Jubito without being wiped out imeadiatly just as well as any of us.



oh no i refuse i will entertain his nonsense with the simple question 

tell me 1 technique used by a non god tier which would have been more useful than hirashin in any situation hirashin or its variants were used.


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Also, I wonder how you still didn't realize I am not interested in Minato/Tobirama's surviving ability. I stated it in the head post, they lack firepower.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> Also, I wonder how you still didn't realize I am not interested in Minato/Tobirama's surviving ability. I stated it in the head post, they lack firepower.



and you define high tier solely with fire power
if so deidara is god tier no?

sadly he gets beat by a sasuke holding back 

see how your logic fails you

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> to answer your question bluntly put as i understand you dont know much about the manga


indeed, cuz I am the one who spouts such BS


Icegaze said:


> Or let's forget the whole appearing in front of madara quicker than kakashi can kamui obito

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> Also, I wonder how you still didn't realize I am not interested in Minato/Tobirama's surviving ability. I stated it in the head post, they lack firepower.


Since a kunai can kill Hashirama, and Madara died from getting stabbed do you see how your very premise is invalid?

When I can suddenly appear next to you and crater you, why do I even need a city buster to do the same job?


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> and you define high tier solely with fire power
> if so deidara is god tier no?
> 
> sadly he gets beat by a sasuke holding back
> ...


High tier has to have both good firepower/killing potential and defense.

I almost always separate PIS Deidara flying under invisible ceiling and unrestricted Deidara here in BD.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> indeed, cuz I am the one who spouts such BS



what was the point of your scan?
did he not appear quicker than kakashi could do hirashin?

again are you implying 10 tails madara isnt above high tier?


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> High tier has to have both good firepower/killing potential and defense.
> 
> I almost always separate PIS Deidara flying under invisible ceiling and unrestricted Deidara here in BD.



name 1 high tier please
entertain me

you understand deidara moves have a range, the further he attacks from the easier it is to dodge his attacks. so why on earth would he be flying 300+ away from the target. what would he be trying to do there?


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Since a kunai can kill Hashirama, and Madara died from getting stabbed do you see how your very premise is invalid?


I am not interested in offpanel deaths. He didn't die (he did but much later), but transformed.


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> what was the point of your scan?
> did he not appear quicker than kakashi could do hirashin?


NO.


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> name 1 high tier please
> entertain me


Do it yourself or search first pages for that.


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> I am not interested in offpanel deaths. He didn't die (he did but much later), but transformed.


Hashirama was going to kill himself with a kunai until Madara stopped him in cannon. And Madara sure as shit did die from Hashirama stabbing him, he just Izanagi'ed himself back to life. 

Read the manga.


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> you understand deidara moves have a range, the further he attacks from the easier it is to dodge his attacks. so why on earth would he be flying 300+ away from the target. what would he be trying to do there?


He can send spiders, send his clone to plant landmines, create many flying creatures and make them attack his victim nonstop. Granted he has his telescope eye.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> NO.



Yusuke


thats him appearing before kakashi can finish kamui


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> He can send spiders, send his clone to plant landmines, create many flying creatures and make them attack his victim nonstop. Granted he has his telescope eye.



yes super fast moving spiders right
oh no wait they are slow as fuck 

yes planting landmines while the enemy watches 

yes non stop because deidara chakra is limited 

so he could do all that yet still decided he would rather die against sasuke?


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Hashirama was going to kill himself with a kunai until Madara stopped him in cannon. And Madara sure as shit did die from Hashirama stabbing him, he just Izanagi'ed himself back to life.
> 
> Read the manga.


Everyone can commit suicide. Except for Hidan I guess.
I though that was about JJ Mads.
That happened after a long long fight with Hashirama.
It's not like Hashirama just tped through his Susano and killed him with kunai or katana.
What's your point?


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> thats him appearing before kakashi can finish kamui


Kunai was there by the moment Kakashi started Kamuing. FTG is instantaneous, while Kamui is nigh instantaneous. What's new about that?


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> Kunai was there by the moment Kakashi started Kamuing. FTG is instantaneous, while Kamui is nigh instantaneous. What's new about that?



so minato didnt throw the kunai?
the kunai moved slowly towards madara feet? 
i dont get....

before kakashi could kamui minato appeared with a rasengan. meaning he created that rasengan within fractions of seconds
but hey...lets say that unimpressive. 

we got Ay moving full speed who couldnt even blitz ET madara with no jin


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> yes super fast moving spiders right
> oh no wait they are slow as fuck


why do you view them separately?


Icegaze said:


> yes planting landmines while the enemy watches


Deidara possesses hiding like a mole jutsu.


Icegaze said:


> yes non stop because deidara chakra is limited


his chakra being limited doesn't have to do anything with the range.


Icegaze said:


> so he could do all that yet still decided he would rather die against sasuke?


otherwise Sasuke would never beat him


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## Mar55 (Mar 15, 2018)

This has to be the dumbest thread I've seen this year, and that's saying something.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> why do you view them separately?
> 
> Deidara possesses hiding like a mole jutsu.
> 
> ...



perhaps because that is the author design 
otherwise if we going with your limitless fan fic sasuke can just do 1 million genjutsu back to back and keep deidara trying to break them forever 

i mean since apparently there arent any limits in BD right


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> so minato didnt throw the kunai?
> the kunai moved slowly towards madara feet?
> i dont get....


When Kakashi started to kamui, kunai was there.


Icegaze said:


> before kakashi could kamui minato appeared with a rasengan. meaning he created that rasengan within fractions of seconds
> but hey...lets say that unimpressive.


How does creating rasengan contribute to proving anything about FTG?


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## Azula (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> No one can, except for Muu, maybe. Alive Tobirama and maybe Minato wouldn't too.



Muu's jinton is trash and gets negged by Gudoudama.

Tobirama and Minato fought without getting life ending injuries many times even as an Edo.

Can Edo Akatsuki and Edo Kages do better since they are Edos? What can they contribute? The Hokages took advantage of being Edos first few times. What about Akatsuki and Kages?


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> we got Ay moving full speed who couldnt even blitz ET madara with no jin


did Minato?


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> Muu's jinton is trash and gets negged by Gudoudama.


I was talking about invisibility.


-Azula- said:


> Tobirama and Minato fought without getting life ending injuries many times even as an Edo.


Tobirama's clone got semi blitzed and got half his body torn apart.
He was also trashed by SM Madara.
Minato got lucky he lost only his arm and would've been exploded if not Tobirama.


-Azula- said:


> Can Edo Akatsuki and Edo Kages do better since they are Edos? What can they contribute? The Hokages took advantage of being Edos first few times. What about Akatsuki and Kages?


That's not the point. Alive Minato and Tobirama aren't doing better than alive Akatsuki.


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## Mar55 (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> did Minato?


Considering they literally never share panel time....

If you replace A with Tobi or Minato, that fight ends with Madara being sealed. As demonstrated by Tobi pressuring Rinne SM Mads, someone much stronger than his Edo and living version.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> did Minato?



no he went up against a much faster and stronger madara got appeared in front of him 
point being Ay would have been slapped long before he even got close


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> no he went up against a much faster and stronger madara got appeared in front of him
> point being Ay would have been slapped long before he even got close


Minato also got wrecked.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> I was talking about invisibility.
> 
> Tobirama's clone got semi blitzed and got half his body torn apart.
> He was also trashed by SM Madara.
> ...



they dont learn new moves or get faster as ET
they can do what they did as ET while alive


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

@Architect 
you dont say in page 1 who is high tier though 

so once again who is high tier in your books. please entertain me. since youve dug yourself a massive hole

here is your way out


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> they dont learn new moves or get faster as ET
> they can do what they did as ET while alive


Okay, now you are completely ignoring my words. I guess you are done for.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> Okay, now you are completely ignoring my words. I guess you are done for.



who is high tier
you dodging and misleading you didnt say who was in page 1

so do say. if minato isnt high tier who is ...go on


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> you dont say in page 1 who is high tier though
> 
> so once again who is high tier in your books. please entertain me. since youve dug yourself a massive hole
> 
> here is your way out





Architect said:


> first page*s*



OMG you can neither read properly, nor write reasonable things.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> OMG you can neither read properly, nor write reasonable things.



since you know
write it down here vs dodging the question 
just list them 

you certainly have time

dont even need explanations as i am sure they are false. just list them


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> since you know
> write it down here vs dodging the question
> just list them
> 
> ...


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> A3, Onoki, Muu, Kisame, Gaara in the desert, probably Deidara without PIS, pre KS Sasuke (maybe), maybe Prime Hiruzen and by the most humble assession War Arc Kakashi.





A3 who needs help handling hachibi who is <<<<<<<<<<kyuubi something minato was able to seal and handle himself

Onoki 

 someone who cant even react to obito kamui 

Muu

someone who cant beat a KCM naruto clone

gaara in a desert 

who cant even catch jouki boy. you know the thing slower than minato 

deidara is where i laughed hard. Would PIS improve his reactions? because he found sasuke fast...how about sasuke without PIS who opts to use kirin off the bat. wonder how deidara deals with that. 

i see why you were afriad to answer


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## Architect (Mar 15, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> i see why you were afriad to answer


I wasn't. I am just tired repeating myself.



Icegaze said:


> A3 who needs help handling hachibi who is <<<<<<<<<<kyuubi something minato was able to seal and handle himself
> 
> Onoki
> 
> ...



Minato with help from Kushina suiciding himself against Kyubi vs A3 stalemating Hachibi, hmmm.
He has good speed, insane defense, attack, stamina and black lightning.


Icegaze said:


> someone who cant even react to obito kamui


are you talking about Obito saving Sasuke's ass?
Onoki has flight, golems , underground travel and jinton as defense. And jinton as offence.


Icegaze said:


> someone who cant beat a KCM naruto clone


Naruto+Gaara+Onoki.
Muu is invisible and is undetectable by virtually any shinobi, has flight, division and jinton as defense and as an offense.


Icegaze said:


> who cant even catch jouki boy. you know the thing slower than minato


Joki boy is very fast.
Gaara possess flight and great defense. Can seal and he is a monster i a desert.


Icegaze said:


> deidara is where i laughed hard. Would PIS improve his reactions? because he found sasuke fast...how about sasuke without PIS who opts to use kirin off the bat. wonder how deidara deals with that.


Sasuke needs amaterasu and being close to clouds for that as per canon.

I don't think I am prepared for a new wave of BS against this. Feel free to do it, but don't expect an answer.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2018)

Architect said:


> I wasn't. I am just tired repeating myself.


sure





> Minato with help from Kushina suiciding himself against Kyubi vs A3 stalemating Hachibi, hmmm.
> He has good speed, insane defense, attack, stamina and black lightning.



a half dead kushina you know from extracting her bijuu. also kyuubi>>>>>>hachibi so stalemating a much weaker bijuu is hardly a feat when minato sealed kyuubi



> are you talking about Obito saving Sasuke's ass?
> Onoki has flight, golems , underground travel and jinton as defense. And jinton as offence.



yes when obito saved sasuke, onoki didnt see shit. hence he cant react to it

lol so flight, golems, underground travel and jinton as defense exceeds hirashin is that what you are saying?

flight is slower. Golems cant defend againt Bijuudama, underground travel is slower to use, and also slower while moving, jinton is slower to use and also there is NOTHING jinton can defend against that hirashin cant 

so hirashin>> onoki entire moveset in defense. Jinton as offense, well there is NO one jinton can hit that minato using rasengan cant also smash in the face and kill 



> Naruto+Gaara+Onoki.
> Muu is invisible and is undetectable by virtually any shinobi, has flight, division and jinton as defense and as an offense.



are you implying naruto couldnt have restrained muu after he had to split in half to survive naruto attack?

Muu is invisible, good quite a neat trick. he cant use any jutsu while he is though. i.e anyone with decent durability nullifies that 

flight is slower than hirashin, division splits his chakra in half, jinton is less useful than hirashin in defense. and in offense anyone he can hit with jinton will also be hit and killed with a rasengan to the face



> Joki boy is very fast.
> Gaara possess flight and great defense. Can seal and he is a monster i a desert.



Minato is much faster than jouki boy though. you can see the hole you keep digging right. 

gaara flight is slower than minato, kishi clearly states this. gaara is such a monster in a desert he couldnt catch jouki boy who is much slower than minato. 



> Sasuke needs amaterasu and being close to clouds for that as per canon.
> 
> I don't think I am prepared for a new wave of BS against this. Feel free to do it, but don't expect an answer.



oh so we goign with canon now. yet somehow deidara can do a multitude of things he was never implied able to do yet you claim he can

you see the hypocrisy ?


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