# Doflamingo vs Hancock



## Slenderman (Nov 29, 2013)

Let the cancer be contained in this thread. 

Location: Dressrosa 
Distance: 20 meters 
Mindset: Bloodlusted 
Restrictions: None.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 29, 2013)

Until she shows more feats, imho I see Doffy as the stronger of the two, so Doflamingo high/extreme diff.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Nov 29, 2013)

Hancock mid-high diff


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## Slenderman (Nov 29, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> Hancock mid-high diff



I am disappoint in you.


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## Grimsley (Nov 29, 2013)

hancock crushes him - mid difficulty.


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## Shinthia (Nov 29, 2013)

Right now i am giving it to DD high to extreme diff because Hancock lack feats.

After DD's fall and seeing more feats from Hancock i am quite positive Hancock will be shown stronger. Because the later u show ur full strength the better. :ho


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## Quuon (Nov 29, 2013)

Doflamingo takes it.

But by no means will it be an easy fight, High-Extreme diff.


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## Grimsley (Nov 29, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> Right now i am giving it to DD high to extreme diff because Hancock lack feats.
> 
> After DD's fall and seeing more feats from Hancock i am quite positive Hancock will be shown stronger. Because the later u show ur full strength the better. :ho



lets also not forget doflamingo is an old ass man in his 40's and he's already reached his potential; hancock is still young and has yet to reach her full potential yet she's already stronger than him :ho


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## Shizune (Nov 29, 2013)

Hancock kicks his teeth in.


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## Slenderman (Nov 29, 2013)

Jackieshann said:


> lets also not forget doflamingo is an old ass man in his 40's and he's already reached his potential; hancock is still young and has yet to reach her full potential yet she's already stronger than him :ho



Blocking Sanji's diable jambe with your leg>Anything Hancock has done.


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## Rob (Nov 29, 2013)

Doflamingo  



















































































Low-diff


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 30, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> Blocking Sanji's diable jambe with your leg>Anything Hancock has done.


And yet we will place her above DD because she has boobs is beautiful!


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## Sanji (Nov 30, 2013)

Dofla for now, but I'm feeling we will see more from Hancock later that will say otherwise.


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## tanman (Nov 30, 2013)

I love how everyone is jumping on the Doflamingo dehyping bandwagon.
Based on zip squat.

Unless the argument is that Doflamingo is too lusty to resist petrification, she gives him less difficulty than Law.


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## Unclear Justice (Nov 30, 2013)

By gut feeling I would put both of them on the same general level, but DD clearly has the better feats for now. Doffy wins high diff.


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## Mercurial (Nov 30, 2013)

Doflamingo rapes. Hancock is a joke character whose better feats are stomping fodders, stopping pre TS Smoker (kicking him in the face with a CoA powered kick, without hurting him at all) and destroying some PX (who were taking her as a friend, and who went down not to her strength but to her hax who ignores durability). Doflamingo is fucking strong, he can play with opponents like Sanji, Smoker and Law, surely is not Admiral level, but is tiers above Boa.


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## Freechoice (Nov 30, 2013)

Lol Raikiri

Hankcock wins


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## Myst (Nov 30, 2013)

Doffy no doubt.


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## Smooth Bear (Nov 30, 2013)

Doffy high diff

Hancock's best feat is defeating a pacifista who is not allowed to fight back. 
Unless she has some kinda hype(which she as far as I know doesn't have) that puts her above Doffy she loses.


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## Orca (Nov 30, 2013)

Doflamingo mid diff.

There are no parallels between Doflamingo and Hancock that suggest they are on same level. Neither has Hancock any feats that suggest she is ultra strong. She oneshotted the pacifistas? Guess what, jora can do the same in similar circumstances. She has CoC? Guess what, so does shanks. Does that mean she's on shanks level? No. Her having CoC does not tell us how strong she is.

Hancock's plot relevance was getting Luffy into ID. That's it. She's had her arc. Her crew is weak as shit. Oda intentially put her against weak characters in Marineford. Because anyone remotely close to admiral level would have bitch slapped her.

Aokiji said nothing about hancock's powerlevel. He only commented on her royalty. Only delusional people misinterpret  aokiji's statement to raise hancock's hype. Get yo heads out of hancock's va.......

I bet jinbei would smack her ass.


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## punisher223 (Nov 30, 2013)

Luffee said:


> Doflamingo mid diff.
> 
> There are no parallels between Doflamingo and Hancock that suggest they are on same level. Neither has Hancock any feats that suggest she is ultra strong. She oneshotted the pacifistas? Guess what, jora can do the same in similar circumstances. She has CoC? Guess what, so does shanks. Does that mean she's on shanks level? No. Her having CoC does not tell us how strong she is.
> 
> ...



This



Raikiri19 said:


> Doflamingo rapes. Hancock is a joke character whose better feats are stomping fodders, stopping pre TS Smoker (kicking him in the face with a CoA powered kick, without hurting him at all) and destroying some PX (who were taking her as a friend, and who went down not to her strength but to her hax who ignores durability). Doflamingo is fucking strong, he can play with opponents like Sanji, Smoker and Law, surely is not Admiral level, but is tiers above Boa.



This



tanman said:


> I love how everyone is jumping on the Doflamingo dehyping bandwagon.
> Based on zip squat.
> 
> Unless the argument is that Doflamingo is too lusty to resist petrification, she gives him less difficulty than Law.



and This


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## Mercurial (Nov 30, 2013)

What said:


> Lol Raikiri
> 
> Hankcock wins



Lol you. Good argumentative skills, and very interesting feats you've listed.



Luffee said:


> Doflamingo mid diff.
> 
> *There are no parallels between Doflamingo and Hancock that suggest they are on same level. Neither has Hancock any feats that suggest she is ultra strong. She oneshotted the pacifistas? Guess what, jora can do the same in similar circumstances. She has CoC? Guess what, so does shanks. Does that mean she's on shanks level? No. Her having CoC does not tell us how strong she is.*
> 
> ...



Very good points, I agree. Especially the Jora/PX argument, Boa didn't oneshot them (who were seeing her as a comrade) with strength, but with DF hax, as Jora could do the same. Post skip M3 oneshot them with strength. It's different, because you can have enough strentgh to be a physical monster (as pre skip Rufy) but not enough to break PX defense, but if you have hax you can overcome it without any problem, even being weak. And a CoA enhanced kick right on the pre skip Smoker face did absolutely nothing to him.


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## Lmao (Nov 30, 2013)




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## Mercurial (Nov 30, 2013)

And so? What would that should be taken as?


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## Lmao (Nov 30, 2013)

In a war against the strongest Yonko crew, Sengoku considers Hancock a valuable asset. Make of that what you will.


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## Mercurial (Nov 30, 2013)

A valuable asset as any other Shichibukai, as would have done it with Bagy, as he did do with Moria. Doflamingo sure has better hype, and totally destroys her by actual manga feats.


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## Orca (Nov 30, 2013)

Lmao said:


> In a war against the strongest Yonko crew, Sengoku considers Hancock a valuable asset. Make of that what you will.



Jinbei was a valuable asset too. 

Its not like WB's crew is full of Marcos and jozus. There are weaker commanders too. Of course a warlord would be a valuable asset against them.


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## Ajin (Nov 30, 2013)

Well, Jinbe is not only a strong, but also extremely powerful. 



So Jinbe > Doflamingo too? That was just a stupid hype. We know that Hancock was unnecessary on MF, she brought only harm to Marines but they still win.

Doflamingo beat her mid-high diff.


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## Mihawk (Nov 30, 2013)

The arguments are so extreme.

Doflamingo cuts her to pieces.


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## RF (Nov 30, 2013)

Doflamingo obviously wins. He has everything she has + more.


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## Lmao (Nov 30, 2013)

Raikiri19 said:


> A valuable asset as any other Shichibukai


He spoke _directly _about her value/strength and she lived up to that hype. It's no coincidence she, alongside Doflamingo and Mihawk were the only Shichibukai that made it out of the war unscathed.



> as he did do with Moria


??

Moria was considered weak to even be Shichibukai..



Ziomek said:


> Well, Jinbe is not only a strong, but also extremely powerful.


_"There're also reports"_ is nowhere near as reliable hype as directly speaking about someone's strength.


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## Cellar Door (Nov 30, 2013)

Ziomek said:


> Well, Jinbe is not only a strong, but also extremely powerful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That hype didn't come from Sengoku though. Nonetheless, Doflamingo has better feats so far, so he wins.


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## Sentomaru (Nov 30, 2013)

Ah, there we go, the weekly Doflamingo vs. Hancock debate. :ignoramus 

Doflamingo wins, and it won't be a very close match.

I'm not even sure why Doflamingo vs. Hancock is such a popular match-up? I'd never come up with the idea of them being equals or even a good fight for each other. Doflamingo has all the hype and feats that puts him above people like current Law or M3 overall (Luffy may still beat him though, see Croc) while Hancock's feats are hardly any better than post-skip Sanji's. Her hype is all fan made. Momonga even threatened her that he'd not return empty-handed.

Hancock for me is similar to Enel -- characters with an extremely hax ability leading people to massively overrate them. Hancock has yet to hold herself in a close combat fight against top-tiers or even high high-tiers such as Doflamingo. Until then, Doflamingo makes Hancock his bitch, mid diff.


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## RF (Nov 30, 2013)

> I'm not even sure why Doflamingo vs. Hancock is such a popular match-up?



They're basically parallels of one another.


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## tanman (Nov 30, 2013)

Lmao said:


> He spoke _directly _about her value/strength and she lived up to that hype. It's no coincidence she, alongside Doflamingo and Mihawk were the only Shichibukai that made it out of the war unscathed.



Because someone brought her up. We're really grasping at straws here. Hancock dealt with Pre-Skip Smoker and a Pacifista, while Doflamingo was dealing with Crocodile, Jozu, Oars Jr., and others or while Mihawk handled Luffy, Jozu, Vista, and others.

Doflamingo and Mihawk put themselves at far more risk and gained far more feats from that war than she did. I mean, Jinbe would have made it out of that war unscathed too if he had limited himself to Hancock's encounters rather than taking hits from freaking Akainu.



Lmao said:


> ??
> 
> Moria was considered weak to even be Shichibukai..



By whom? Doflamingo?



Lmao said:


> _"There're also reports"_ is nowhere near as reliable hype as directly speaking about someone's strength.c



Not really. The subject of both hype statements was very explicit.


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## Mercurial (Nov 30, 2013)

Lmao said:


> He spoke _directly _about her value/strength and *she lived up to that hype*. It's no coincidence *she, alongside Doflamingo and Mihawk were the only Shichibukai that made it out of the war unscathed.*
> 
> ??



How!?

Sure. Akainu wasn't unscathed, and Whitebeard died. So it's only logic to say that Hancock, who came out unscathed, is a lot stronger than them. Or maybe we could stop grasping at straws, because Hancock fought... who? Fodders? Pre TS Smoker (stopped, not fought)? Some PX that believed she was their comrade and were the perfect target for her hax ability? C'mon.


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## GIORNO (Dec 1, 2013)

Based on feats, DD no doubt. I still don't think Boa's as weak as people portray her to be, just like DD and Mihawk, she wasn't even remotely serious at MF.


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## Gervin (Dec 1, 2013)

DD mid-high diff.  Cause, ya know, feats and blah blah blah...

Hancock fended off pre-skip Smoker without actually physically hurting him, while DD absolutely wrecked post-skip Smoker.  There is literally nothing else to go on.


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## Lmao (Dec 1, 2013)

tanman said:


> Because someone brought her up. We're really grasping at straws here. Hancock dealt with Pre-Skip Smoker *and a Pacifista*, while Doflamingo was dealing with Crocodile, Jozu, Oars Jr., and others or while Mihawk handled Luffy, Jozu, Vista, and others.


Doflamingo only immobilized Jozu, who wasn't focusing on him in the first place. Granted it's impressive, we have no idea how his hax works. 

Bolded isn't exactly true,  Oda even draws the most prominent Shichibukai separately from the rest:




I'm not arguing she wins or anything, Doflamingo has both better feats and portrayal but claims such as "he rapes/mid diffs Hancock" are absolutely ridiculous.



tanman said:


> By whom? Doflamingo?


It's not just Doflamingo, Kuma mocked him by offering his help to deal with a rookie and Jinbe pretty much one shot him in their encounter. 



tanman said:


> Not really. The subject of both hype statements was very explicit.


It's not. Those reports were either:

a)fodder marines
b)local people

And we both know just how reliable source of information those are. :/



Raikiri19 said:


> Sure. Akainu wasn't unscathed, and Whitebeard  died. So it's only logic to say that Hancock, who came out unscathed, is  a lot stronger than them.


I never implied anything of sort, not  even sure how you made that terrible comparison.


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## tanman (Dec 1, 2013)

Lmao said:


> Doflamingo only immobilized Jozu, who wasn't focusing on him in the first place. Granted it's impressive, we have no idea how his hax works.



Okay. But just for reference, what has Hancock done that's remotely comparable. It's a very strong statement to say that she give him high difficulty. That implies that they are quite close in strength. It implies that she would give him a harder fight than Law. What evidence is there to base any of this off of. I would say Post-Skip Luffy has everything Hancock has and more. Simply put, being vaguely hyped with Doflamingo is far from sufficient. After all, she's also hyped next to Mihawk, and no one claims that they are close in strength.

On the other hand, Doflamingo did more with the screen time he had at Marineford, even though he wasn't a primary character at the time and she was. In their own respective arcs, it's a Heaven and Earth comparison. Doflamingo has taken down Post-Skip Smoker with no difficulty, escaped Aokiji's ice, taken down Law with medium difficulty, and restricted Sanji's movement with no difficulty. 

Simply having solid hype doesn't even come close to pushing this to high difficulty when Doflamingo has more hype and extensive feats.

*I'll say it again:*
Doflamingo and Mihawk put themselves at far more risk and gained far more feats from that war than she did. I mean, Jinbe would have made it out of that war unscathed too if he had limited himself to Hancock's encounters rather than taking hits from freaking Akainu.




Lmao said:


> Bolded isn't exactly true,



You're correct on the Pacifista part. I was just representing what happened on-panel. Don't recall her ever fighting Sentomaru, though.



Lmao said:


> Oda even draws the most prominent Shichibukai separately from the rest:
> 
> z



Does Doflamingo give Mihawk high difficulty? Does Hancock give Mihawk high difficulty? Does Moriah give Kuma high difficulty? I mean, this is paper thin evidence. Prominence doesn't even correlate with strength.





Lmao said:


> I'm not arguing she wins or anything, Doflamingo has both better feats and portrayal but claims such as "he rapes/mid diffs Hancock" are absolutely ridiculous.



Saying that it's a high difficulty is big enough claim for me to object.





Lmao said:


> It's not just Doflamingo, Kuma mocked him by offering his help to deal with a rookie and Jinbe pretty much one shot him in their encounter.



Kuma was being totally serious and practical about the affair. Moriah just took it badly. "There's no 100% when it comes to a battle. Back in Enies' Lobby who would have thought that Rob Lucci would be defeated."

Pretty straightforward utilitarian speech he gave. The World Government and the Shichibukai clearly have respect for Moriah (Doflamingo, the jokester, is an exception).





Lmao said:


> It's not. Those reports were either:
> 
> a)fodder marines
> b)local people
> ...



So your argument here is that Oda included the discussion of false reports for no particular reason but to waste his readers' time?


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## Lmao (Dec 1, 2013)

tanman said:


> Okay. But just for reference, what has Hancock   done that's remotely comparable. It's a very strong statement to say   that she give him high difficulty. That implies that they are quite   close in strength.


Absence of evidence is not evidence of   absence, Hancock not having Post-TS feats (yet) doesn't mean Doflamingo   is automatically superior, let alone by a huge margin.

High difficulty implies the characters are on the same general league,  which DD/Hancock most definitely are. Very High - Extreme difficulty  means the characters are _very _close/equals.



tanman said:


> In their own respective arcs, it's a Heaven and   Earth comparison. Doflamingo has taken down Post-Skip Smoker with no   difficulty, escaped Aokiji's ice, taken down Law with medium difficulty,   and restricted Sanji's movement with no difficulty.


In their   own respective arcs, Hancock wasn't a villain. Doflamingo's feats are   often blown out of proportion:

a) Bloodlusted Doflamingo destroyed an exhausted jutteless Smoker
b) Aokiji didn't even move/touch him, not surprising for someone of his caliber to break free
c) Sanji situation is akin to Jozu, neither had knowledge

His war feats aren't outside the realm of Hancock's power either. She   would toy with Crocodile as well, dodging & tagging Oars Jr.   shouldn't be hard and Atmos would be petrified.

Doflamingo will most definitely fall this arc, will you then claim Luffy   can also destroy Smoker? Mid diff Law? Low diff Sanji? A heavily   exhausted Law managed to cut DD's cheek, he really isn't as invincible   as you people seem to think. 



tanman said:


> Does Doflamingo give Mihawk high difficulty? Does   Hancock give Mihawk high difficulty? Does Moriah give Kuma high   difficulty? I mean, this is paper thin evidence. Prominence doesn't even   correlate with strength.


Do any of the aforementioned have as   many parallels as Hancock/Doflamingo do? 

Hax DF? ✓
CoC? ✓
Leader of an island & a pirate crew? ✓
Portrayed superior to VAs? ✓
Made it out of the war unscathed? ✓

Prominence does correlate with strength, to some extent at least. It's   the reason we assume the EL Buster Call VAs are stronger than the likes   of Maynard/Mozambia etc.



tanman said:


> So your argument here is that Oda included the   discussion of false reports for no particular reason but to waste his   readers' time?


Uhhm... no? My argument here is that Sengoku's   words are far more credible than those 'reports'. What do fodder   marines/local people know about being extremely powerful? Absolutely   nothing.


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## tanman (Dec 2, 2013)

Lmao said:


> Absence of evidence is not evidence of   absence, Hancock not having Post-TS feats (yet) doesn't mean Doflamingo   is automatically superior, let alone by a huge margin.



Why would you assume that Hancock who has already had her arc will get post-skip feats that will raise my opinion of her? What's her relevance to the upcoming story. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but absence of evidence certainly isn't the foundation of a solid argument.

Mid difficulty isn't a huge margin. Many people say that mid difficulty is what Kaku gave Zoro or Jyabura gave Sanji. Certainly, you don't think that's a huge margin? I, for one, consider those to be high difficulty matches, but my point still stands. Doflamingo v. Law was in the realm of mid difficulty for sure. And Hancock has shown nothing to put her over Law. Let alone, enough over Law that this fight could be moved to high difficulty. 



Lmao said:


> High difficulty implies the characters are on the same general league,  which DD/Hancock most definitely are. Very High - Extreme difficulty  means the characters are _very _close/equals.



Same general league? That's very vague. Again the goalposts are changing. How close is the same general league? Zoro and Kaku are certainly in the same general league (in fact, they're much closer than there's any evidence to support Hancock being to Doflamingo). Law and Smoker are in the same general league. Can you give an example of what you consider to be high difficulty because this may just be a semantic issue.

You do understand that mid difficulty is generous right? Mid difficulty is considering Hancock's hype and factoring that into the equation. If we just look at the raw package, they would most definitely not be in the same league.        




Lmao said:


> In their   own respective arcs, Hancock wasn't a villain.



Neither was Whitebeard, but he looked pretty good in that Marineford arc. If Oda wants a character to be known as wildly strong, he has ways of doing it without the character becoming a villain (especially when that entire arc is devoted to that one character much unlike Marineford).




Lmao said:


> Doflamingo's feats are   often blown out of proportion:
> a) Bloodlusted Doflamingo destroyed an exhausted jutteless Smoker
> b) Aokiji didn't even move/touch him, not surprising for someone of his caliber to break free
> c) Sanji situation is akin to Jozu, neither had knowledge



Smoker was noted to have experienced a recovery. Aokiji was trying to stop him cold (pun intended). Breaking out of an attack with that intent is very impressive, and it's not something Hancock has shown that she can even come close to doing. Sanji was attacking him full on, and he was stopped in his tracks. Again, that's very impressive.

I never suggested anything different from what you're saying, so it seems you must be talking about other people when you say his feats are being blown out of proportion. 




Lmao said:


> His war feats aren't outside the realm of Hancock's power either. She   would toy with Crocodile as well, dodging & tagging Oars Jr.   shouldn't be hard and Atmos would be petrified.



Could Hancock petrify someone of Jozu's level?
Could Hancock be completely unaffected by a huge DJ from Sanji?
Could Hancock escape Aokiji's ice?
Could Hancock casually K.O. Oars Jr. (physical alternative to dismembering him)?
Would Hancock be completely immune to the effects of Law's room?
Would Hancock be able to defend against Fujitora's meteor?

You might answer yes to some of these questions because you think very highly of Hancock, but that's not the point. These are _all_ questions that you have to ask about Hancock before you give her a difficulty as good as high since these are all things that Doflamingo did without out showing any great strain at all.

You can't just scrape from the bottom of Doflamingo's war feats (Atmos & and Crocodile) and call it a day.




Lmao said:


> Doflamingo will most definitely fall this arc, will you then claim Luffy   can also destroy Smoker? Mid diff Law? Low diff Sanji? A heavily   exhausted Law managed to cut DD's cheek, he really isn't as invincible   as you people seem to think.



Nope. Because A>B>C logic is for idiots.
*What a lot of people don't seem to understand is that Doflamingo's ability allows him to defeat wildly powerful people. Because of this, defeating Doflamingo does not mean that you can defeat everyone that he can defeat. His abilities are very special.* 

And when Luffy defeats Doflamingo, it's unlikely that it'll be some kind of decisive victory where people will forever put Luffy ahead of Doflamingo (the same true of all other saga villains).

Are you arguing that Law cutting Doflamingo's cheek is evidence of what? Law giving Doflamingo more than mid difficulty when healthy? Does that effect his relationship with Hancock in some way.

Also, who are you calling you people?



Lmao said:


> Do any of the aforementioned have as   many parallels as Hancock/Doflamingo do?
> 
> Hax DF? ✓
> CoC? ✓
> ...



So parallels correlate with very close strength?
Like Luffy and Roger, right? You're making this too easy. The difference is, like Luffy and Roger, one has all the parallels listed but to a much more stunning extent.

Better DF
Better CoC, CoA, CoO
Leader to New World Pirate Crew Allied with Kaido, With Subsidiary Crews Throughout Paradise, With Moles in the World Government
Portrayed Vastly Superior to A VA with Feats
More Than 4x The Bounty

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Coming out unscathed means nothing. It's merely a function of the risk you put yourself in. You ignored the part of my post that made this point, and you're continuing to use this as a feat. So clearly this is something that needs to be discussed.





Lmao said:


> Prominence does correlate with strength, to some extent at least. It's   the reason we assume the EL Buster Call VAs are stronger than the likes   of Maynard/Mozambia etc.



I don't assume that.
Crocodile's name is known far more than Moriah or Hancock's for example.



Lmao said:


> Uhhm... no? My argument here is that Sengoku's   words are far more credible than those 'reports'. What do fodder   marines/local people know about being extremely powerful? Absolutely nothing.



Pretty sure those words wouldn't have came out of Kizaru's (or whoever it was, I forget) if he thought the person was just a joke. Especially not with such specificity. That was the summary of a report made by him, not the entirety of it.


*Conceded Points: (just trying to make sure nothing slips through the cracks)*
Sentomaru fighting Hancock
Moriah being mocked as Too Weak to be a Shichibukai
Hancock doing as much as Doflamingo in the War


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## Lmao (Dec 4, 2013)

tanman said:


> Why would you assume that Hancock who has already  had her arc will get post-skip feats that will raise my opinion of her?  What's her relevance to the upcoming story.


Because she's one of  the few Shichibukai that didn't go all out Pre-TS. Because in the final  war, where Luffy's allies will come to aid, she'll be present. The  latter alone, could be used to claim Hancock > Doflamingo but since I  don't like speculating that far in the manga, I'm going to keep it  minimal and just defend Hancock's dignity.



tanman said:


> Can you give an example of what you consider to  be high difficulty because this may just be a semantic  issue.


High difficulty is what I'd consider Luffy vs Sanji to be.  And she definitely has at least that much going for her to warrant such difficulty.



tanman said:


> Neither was Whitebeard, but he looked pretty good  in that Marineford arc.


Except Whitebeard went all out in his  arc, she didn't. Amazon Lily was a set up arc for Luffy's  training/future relationship with her, it wasn't Hancock's arc to shine per se.  We can start calling it that when she gets a real fight.



tanman said:


> Smoker was noted to have experienced a recovery. *Aokiji  was trying to stop him cold (pun intended). Breaking out of an attack  with that intent is very impressive, and it's not something Hancock has  shown that she can even come close to doing.* Sanji was attacking him  full on, and he was stopped in his tracks. Again, that's very  impressive.


Still not at full power and jutteless plus Doflamingo  was not in a mood to fuck around, clearly a bad combination.
This is what I meant when I said Doflamingo's feats are being blown out of proportion, why is Hancock _not even close _to replicating such feat yet Doflamingo gets so much praise for a flash freeze Kuzan moved no inch to perform?



tanman said:


> What a lot of people don't seem to understand is  that Doflamingo's ability allows him to defeat wildly powerful people.  Because of this, defeating Doflamingo does not mean that you can defeat  everyone that he can defeat. His abilities are very special.
> 
> Are you arguing that Law cutting Doflamingo's cheek is evidence of what?
> 
> Also, who are you calling you people?


You do realize Hancock has  one of the most unforgiving hax abilities, right? If you get hit and  your Haki isn't powerful enough to shield you, you are permanently  fucked. It's not the kind of damage you can recover from, unlike Doflamingo's.

It's evidence of Doflamingo narrowly dodging an attack from an exhausted Law.

Doflamingo's supporters, including you.



tanman said:


> The difference is, like Luffy and Roger, one  has all the parallels listed but to a much more stunning extent.
> 
> Better DF
> Better CoC, CoA, CoO
> ...


What stunning extent? You basically nitpicked every universally available info and put it in a very subjective way. :/

- ?? 
- CoA aside, what CoC/CoO feats does Doflamingo have, let alone _better_?
- Kaido is a business partner, not an ally. Rest are irrelevant.
- So has Hancock. 
- You should know better than use bounty as an argument.



tanman said:


> I've said it before, but I'll say it again.  Coming out unscathed means nothing. It's merely a function of the risk  you put yourself in. You ignored the part of my post that made this  point, and you're continuing to use this as a feat. So clearly this is  something that needs to be discussed.


I didn't ignore anything, I  addressed your point _"His war feats aren't outside the realm of Hancock's power etc"_.  You want to talk about risk? How about Hancock directly opposing the  Marines (attacking fodder | stopping Smoker | Pacifistas)? What about  handing the key to freeing the _MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN THE WAR_? Risk is clearly not combat exclusive.



tanman said:


> Pretty sure those words wouldn't have came out of  Kizaru's (or whoever it was, I forget) if he thought the person was  just a joke.


How can he form an opinion for someone he hasn't even  seen? Strawberry was just transferring RA Kadahl's report to Kizaru, that's all.





tanman said:


> Conceded Points: (just trying to make sure nothing slips through the cracks)
> Sentomaru fighting Hancock
> Moriah being mocked as Too Weak to be a Shichibukai
> Hancock doing as much as Doflamingo in the War


Not dragging arguments to keep the discussion shorter =/= Conceding a point.

I find it hard to believe Sentomaru, who led the Pacifista army, sat  there watching Hancock destroy them left and right, without doing  anything to stop her. But whatever I made my main point earlier,  that being Hancock dealing with multiple Paficista, if you want to call  this a point in your favor, suit yourself.

Please, being so concerned that a Shichibukai will fall to a rookie crew  that you send a second one to aid is clearly a sign of distrust in  Moria's ability to deal with them. Do you see any Shichibukai aiding  Doflamingo, despite Luffy being more notorious than ever? Unless you  wish to argue MF Moria _isn't _the weakest SB then I don't see the point in further arguing about this.

Not sure where the last one came from, since I never claimed she did as much as Doflamingo. :/


----------



## J★J♥ (Dec 4, 2013)

Hackock loses, but she is still second strongest shichi imo.


----------



## RF (Dec 4, 2013)

^ Dofla/Hancock > Mihawk ?


----------



## tanman (Dec 4, 2013)

I wanted to blow off my response a little bit, but after reading what you wrote, I couldn't help but respond immediately.



Lmao said:


> Because she's one of  the few Shichibukai that didn't go all out Pre-TS.



You mean like Doflamingo. The difference of course being that she got far more panel time. Regardless, not having shown strength isn't evidence that you will show strength. I think that's pretty self-explanatory.




Lmao said:


> Because in the final  war, where Luffy's allies will come to aid, she'll be present. The  latter alone, could be used to claim Hancock > Doflamingo



How is that even close to enough? Will Pell be stronger than Doflamingo too? He hardly got used to his full potential.

And why won't Doflamingo reappear in the final war (what side he's on is irrelevant)? We know that Oda loves to keep his villains involved in the story.



Lmao said:


> but since I  don't like speculating that far in the manga, I'm going to keep it  minimal and just defend Hancock's dignity.



High difficulty isn't dignity. Mid difficulty is dignity. High difficulty is high praise. And baseless praise.




Lmao said:


> High difficulty is what I'd consider Luffy vs Sanji to be.  And she definitely has at least that much going for her to warrant such difficulty.



Wow! Luffy vs. Sanji. You're right that is a very difficult fight. They are very close in strength. Remarkably so. 

Saying that Doflamingo and Hancock are that close in strength is truly shocking. We've seen Luffy and Sanji time and time again perform similarly against shared opponents. They wouldn't walk out of a fight together without Luffy bloody and battered. You're saying the same is true for Doflamingo? Pushing Doflamingo so far would at least require one to be able to fully break his CoA, which is capable of taking a huge DJ. What makes you think Hancock can even hit that hard?



Lmao said:


> Except Whitebeard went all out in his  arc, she didn't.



Them changing goalposts. And, of course, he only went all out for a brief moment against Akainu. He would have still been considered above everyone else even without that moment.

If Oda wanted Hancock to be hugely strong, isn't it obvious for him to demonstrate that during her arc?



Lmao said:


> Amazon Lily was a set up arc for Luffy's  training/future relationship with her, it wasn't Hancock's arc to shine per se.  We can start calling it that when she gets a real fight.



It may not have been Hancock's arc to shine, but why would her strength not even be demonstrated upon her introduction? Basically every powerful character thus far has shown some of their true power upon introduction. For Hancock, that was defeating some Pacifista and doing everything in her backstory. That's it.

Do understand also, that she may never get a real fight. Will we still hype her to the stars then?




Lmao said:


> Still not at full power and jutteless plus Doflamingo  was not in a mood to fuck around, clearly a bad combination.



True. I think we saw that in the result.



Lmao said:


> This is what I meant when I said Doflamingo's feats are being blown out of proportion, why is Hancock _not even close _to replicating such feat yet Doflamingo gets so much praise for a flash freeze Kuzan moved no inch to perform?



Because she's never done anything like that? She's never been hyped to be able to do anything like that. That's why she's not even close to replicating that.

Doflamingo gets praise because it's a feat. Just like Hancock gets praise for taking out some Pacifista. I think you understand how this works.




Lmao said:


> You do realize Hancock has  one of the most unforgiving hax abilities, right? If you get hit and  your Haki isn't powerful enough to shield you, you are permanently  fucked. It's not the kind of damage you can recover from, unlike Doflamingo's.



The damage might be permanent, but in combat fucked is still fucked once you're unable to move.

Doflamingo, on the other hand, is able to perform damage on an even wider range of opponents than Hancock. It ignores high level CoA, physical strength, and even sheer willpower of even someone on Jozu's level.




Lmao said:


> It's evidence of Doflamingo narrowly dodging an attack from an exhausted Law.



True fact.
Just making sure you weren't trying to say that somehow put Dofla in Hancock's range.



Lmao said:


> Doflamingo's supporters, including you.



I'm glad you didn't use a term like "wanker." 
That would have pissed me off a bit. 

I might not agree with the basis your arguments, but I do appreciate your civility, at least.




Lmao said:


> What stunning extent? You basically nitpicked every universally available info and put it in a very subjective way. :/



Is saying that one character has skills greater than another a very subjective thing? If so, we never have been arguing with objectivity in the battledome. The stunning extent is that Doflmaingo has shown everything Hancock has shown, but to a much more impressive extent.



Lmao said:


> - ??



A devil fruit that allows the user to create invisible strings to manipulate and damage virtually anything at any range is clearly more versatile and more powerful than a devil fruit that allows the user to target opponents for petrification.



Lmao said:


> - CoA aside, what CoC/CoO feats does Doflamingo have, let alone _better_?



Glad you said CoA aside.
Doflamingo used CoC to knock out a battalion of G5 marines. Hancock has never used it on panel. Neither character has been specifically shown to have CoO. However, it's heavily implied for both. And the speed of the characters that Doflamingo has evaded almost perfectly (Law, Sanji, and so on) exceeds that of any characters Hancock has faced.




Lmao said:


> - Kaido is a business partner, not an ally.



Semantic difference.



Lmao said:


> Rest are irrelevant.



Yes, the size of Doflamingo's empire is irrelevant, but Hancock being the leader of an island is totally relevant.




Lmao said:


> - So has Hancock.



Momonga feats?




Lmao said:


> - You should know better than use bounty as an argument.



That's rich coming from someone using making it out of the war unscathed as an argument.



Lmao said:


> I didn't ignore anything, I  addressed your point _"His war feats aren't outside the realm of Hancock's power etc"_.  You want to talk about risk? How about Hancock directly opposing the  Marines (attacking fodder | stopping Smoker | Pacifistas)? What about  handing the key to freeing the _MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN THE WAR_? Risk is clearly not combat exclusive.



You're saying that the risk Hancock took in handing a key to Luffy or attacking Pacifsta can be compared to the risk Jinbe took being a meat shield for a magma punch, Mihawk took when attacked Whitebeard, or Doflamingo took when he engaged Jozu.

Do you honestly think that Akainu was going to straight up murder Hancock then and there for giving away that key? At worst, she would loose her position. Hardly comparable.



Lmao said:


> How can he form an opinion for someone he hasn't even  seen? Strawberry was just transferring RA Kadahl's report to Kizaru, that's all.



As I said, he was condensing a report, which likely included specific. His word choice with Kizaru was made from a judgement of those reports.




Lmao said:


> Not dragging arguments to keep the discussion shorter =/= Conceding a point.



Ok, good. Just making sure.



Lmao said:


> I find it hard to believe Sentomaru, who led the Pacifista army, sat  there watching Hancock destroy them left and right, without doing  anything to stop her. But whatever I made my main point earlier,  that being Hancock dealing with multiple Paficista, if you want to call  this a point in your favor, suit yourself.



Hancock engaging in direct combat with Sentomaru, a human being, is very different from Hancock killing some robots. The former could easily result in her dismissal as it is as direct a betrayal as you can give.



Lmao said:


> Please, being so concerned that a Shichibukai will fall to a rookie crew  that you send a second one to aid is clearly a sign of distrust in  Moria's ability to deal with them. Do you see any Shichibukai aiding  Doflamingo, despite Luffy being more notorious than ever? Unless you  wish to argue MF Moria _isn't _the weakest SB then I don't see the point in further arguing about this.



Yeah, Doflamingo only has an army, an admiral, the CP0, and a far larger crew. Kuma came to relay a message. His offer of help was peripheral. Of course, no shichibukai to travel to Dressrosa to specifically target a single pirate crew.



Lmao said:


> Not sure where the last one came from, since I never claimed she did as much as Doflamingo. :/



You never quoted that part of the response. I assumed you didn't agree with it. My bad.


----------



## Orca (Dec 4, 2013)

Tanman vs Lmao.




*Spoiler*: __ 



I feel your pain. I've been there


----------



## Lmao (Dec 6, 2013)

tanman said:


> How is that even close to enough? Will Pell be stronger than Doflamingo too? He hardly got used to his full potential.
> 
> And why won't Doflamingo reappear in the final war (what side he's on is irrelevant)? We know that Oda loves to keep his villains involved in the story.


Pell is hardly as relevant as Hancock is story-wise. To be honest, Hancock has been underestimated ever since the day Oda decided to add that "Luffy fangirl" trait, thus she's been written off as a gag character. 

Nobody said he won't reappear, that line was meant to be taken as: _Since AL/MF didn't fully exploit Hancock's strength, the final war most probably will._



tanman said:


> Saying that Doflamingo and Hancock are that close in strength is truly shocking. We've seen Luffy and Sanji time and time again perform similarly against shared opponents. They wouldn't walk out of a fight together without Luffy bloody and battered. You're saying the same is true for Doflamingo? Pushing Doflamingo so far would at least require one to be able to fully break his CoA, which is capable of taking a huge DJ. What makes you think Hancock can even hit that hard?


There's absolutely nothing shocking about them being close in strength (before you jump the gun, close =/= equals), you probably hold Doflamingo in higher regard than your average supporter. What difficulty would assume he gives to an Admiral of the Logia Trio?

Luffy's opponents have always been a good deal stronger than Sanji's yet you don't see anyone claiming he rapes/mid diffs Sanji. It's part of being in the same league (M3) portrayal, Doflamingo|Hancock are no different. He can be notably stronger and still have plenty difficulty beating Hancock.

She doesn't need to hit that hard, it's why her abilities perfectly suit her. Neither does her CoA have to be powerful enough to replicate Doflamingo's feats, that's just faulty logic. Smoker wasn't as proficient as Vergo in CoA yet they were exchanging blows just fine. Similarly, he can lean more towards CoA while Hancock makes up by being more proficient in CoO.



tanman said:


> If Oda wanted Hancock to be hugely strong, isn't it obvious for him to demonstrate that during her arc?


Didn't he do just that upon their introductions? Both of them were portrayed superior to VAs and the next best thing we've seen after VAs are Yonko Top Commanders, ranging from Vista to Marco.



tanman said:


> It may not have been Hancock's arc to shine, but why would her strength not even be demonstrated upon her introduction? *For Hancock, that was defeating some Pacifista and doing everything in her backstory. That's it.*
> 
> Do understand also, that she may never get a real fight. Will we still hype her to the stars then?


Is that _really_ what happened or is your memory not that great? You be the judge.




Crocodile, who already had his arc, reappeared in ID|MF and is strongly hinted to appear again in the New World. I have very good reason to believe that's not all Oda had in store for the future wife of the Pirate King.



tanman said:


> Doflamingo gets praise because it's a feat. Just like Hancock gets praise for taking out some Pacifista. I think you understand how this works.


I'm well aware how feats work, what I don't understand is why is it thought as some unthinkable accomplishment for say, a M3 level combatant. Why breaking out of an attack, that qualifies as one of the simplest things Kuzan can do, is Doflamingo exclusive? Kuzan's intent was to stop Doflamingo not kill him, I see no reason why someone like Luffy or Zoro wouldn't be able to break free of that thin layer of ice. Hancock can probably free herself through hax, as she can petrify anything she makes contact with at will.



tanman said:


> It ignores high level CoA,  physical strength, and even sheer willpower of even someone on Jozu's  level.
> 
> Is saying that one character has skills greater than another a very subjective thing?


The mechanics of that ability are still unclear, obviously there's some answer to it otherwise Luffy stands no chance. Still Hancock is a bad match up for the reason I mentioned in the last line above.

Better DF, CoO, CoC are what's subjective. 



tanman said:


> Yes, the size of Doflamingo's empire is irrelevant, but Hancock being the leader of an island is totally relevant.
> 
> Momonga feats?
> 
> That's rich coming from someone using making it out of the war unscathed as an argument.


- The size of Doflamingo's empire is due to him being the most charismatic and influential Shichibukai, something he has even Mihawk beat. Doesn't change the fact they both share the King|Empress parallel.

- Sorry, I'm confused here. Are you asking me to show you Momonga's feats or are you doubting the credibility of forcing him to stab himself to avoid petrification as a feat. Which one is it?

- Making it out of the war unscathed serves as portrayal. What is bounty supposed prove. Child Robin being stronger than Sanji? Teach being absolutely worthless? Ace being a good deal stronger than Doflamingo? Those are statements you will have to accept if you're gonna use bounty as an indicator of superiority. But since you mentioned it anyway, _Hancock's 80,000,000 beli bounty is the highest initial bounty ever given_ to date, that's nearly a Supernova level bounty and she earned it in a *single campaign *at the *age of 18*.



tanman said:


> Do you honestly think that Akainu was going to straight up murder Hancock then and there for giving away that key? At worst, she would loose her position. Hardly comparable.


If he saw her? Absolutely. You're talking about a man who killed _marines_ for not obeying orders/getting in his way, I have no doubt in my mind he would kill Hancock. 

At worst lose her position... and subsequently the privileges that come along with it, those being rescinded bounty and protection. In other words, the treaty she has with the WG would be made void, so pray tell me how is compromising her own and her people's safety NOT a big risk?



tanman said:


> Hancock engaging in direct combat with Sentomaru, a human being, is very different from Hancock killing some robots. The former could easily result in her dismissal as it is as direct a betrayal as you can give.



Unless the definition for marine soldiers isn't human being, then that's as direct a betrayal as it gets.


----------



## tanman (Dec 6, 2013)

Lmao said:


> Pell is hardly as relevant as Hancock is story-wise. To be honest, Hancock has been underestimated ever since the day Oda decided to add that "Luffy fangirl" trait, thus she's been written off as a gag character.



What exactly is Hancock's role in the story to you? The way I see it, her value is in her and her army coming during the final war. Just like, Alabasta and its army. I don't see her as a character that is to be expanded upon, so much as she's going to be utilized. After all, the sheer number of allies that the Strawhats have acquired is monstrous. I don't understand why that would be a time for Hancock character develop,ment.

If she's been written off as a gag character by the readers, due to Oda's jokes, isn't that more informative than speculation on Oda's future intention for her with no basis in what's already happened.



Lmao said:


> Nobody said he won't reappear, that line was meant to be taken as: _Since AL/MF didn't fully exploit Hancock's strength, the final war most probably will._



What about Crocodile, who appeared to exploi to his full potential in Alabasta, but had an even more impressive showing at Marineford. We should go ahead and hype Doflamingo with him doing something similar in mind. It's only fair since we're giving Hancock such great hype off of a war that hasn't happened.



Lmao said:


> There's absolutely nothing shocking about them being close in strength (before you jump the gun, close =/= equals), you probably hold Doflamingo in higher regard than your average supporter. What difficulty would assume he gives to an Admiral of the Logia Trio?



Luffy and Sanji aren't just close in strength. They are _very_ close in strength. I mean you could say Rob Lucci and Kumadori are close in strength (looking at the grand scheme of things), but you've made it very clear that you mean much closer than that. That's a very precise and very high statement of her strength when she's shown nothing against opponents of Doflamingo's level.

I would say he give any of them a medium level of difficulty.




Lmao said:


> Luffy's opponents have always been a good deal stronger than Sanji's yet you don't see anyone claiming he rapes/mid diffs Sanji.



I agree with this statement. 



Lmao said:


> It's part of being in the same league (M3) portrayal, Doflamingo|Hancock are no different. He can be notably stronger and still have plenty difficulty beating Hancock.



The difference is that Luffy utilizes plot magic to defeat his opponents. Doflamingo has preformed well without plot on his side. To say she's good enough to give Doflamingo, is to say she would do far better than Sanji and Law. What is there to support that?

And the M3 aren't just in the same league. They are very close in strength. 



Lmao said:


> She doesn't need to hit that hard, it's why her abilities perfectly suit her. Neither does her CoA have to be powerful enough to replicate Doflamingo's feats, that's just faulty logic. Smoker wasn't as proficient as Vergo in CoA yet they were exchanging blows just fine. Similarly, he can lean more towards CoA while Hancock makes up by being more proficient in CoO.



I'm not using faulty logic. I'm not saying that a fighter can't overcome an opponent with marginally better CoA than them. That's silly. I'm saying a CQC combatant with _far_ inferior CoA showings won't even be able to hurt Doflamingo. Smoker and Vergo had much closer levels of CoA than Doflamingo and Sanji. We saw this when Smoker's attacks actually hurt Vergo.

Hancock has done absolutely nothing CoO. So, don't see how she's making up for it there. Her fruit is her best bet, you're right. But Doflamingo seems to have very high willpower, little interest in women, and is far too fast for things like love arrows. Like Law, her only way of having a chance is in CQC, where she still falls terribly short.




Lmao said:


> Didn't he do just that upon their introductions? Both of them were portrayed superior to VAs and the next best thing we've seen after VAs are Yonko Top Commanders, ranging from Vista to Marco.



The thing is that Momonga had no ill will towards Hancock. There was no fight there, unlike with Doflamingo. Not to mention, Doflamingo was leisurely using *two* vice admirals to play fight for his entertainment. In the past, Oda has showcased the power of new characters (particularly characters on Doflamingo's level and above) by having them doing things wildly more shocking than merely causing a vice admiral to defend himself. 

While "both of them" might have done one thing, that doesn't mean one of them hasn't done far more, which you continue to ignore. 



Lmao said:


> Is that _really_ what happened or is your memory not that great? You be the judge.



I _will_ judge. Thanks for the offer.
Doflamingo has a vice admiral almost kill another a vice admiral.
Hancock makes a vice admiral stab himself to avoid an attack.

Going to go with Doflamingo on that one.

Obviously, since I was adding on Hancock's feats from Marineford, I wasn't using the literal first time we saw her. My memory is actually superb and hopefully, so is your sarcasm.


----------



## Shinryu (Dec 6, 2013)

Doflamingo no difficulty he rips her to piece literally.


----------



## tanman (Dec 6, 2013)

Lmao said:


> Crocodile, who already had his arc, reappeared in ID|MF and is strongly hinted to appear again in the New World. I have very good reason to believe that's not all Oda had in store for the future wife of the Pirate King.



That's funny. 
But on a serious note, Crocodile gets special treatment as a fan favorite (and an Oda favorite).



Lmao said:


> I'm well aware how feats work, what I don't understand is why is it thought as some unthinkable accomplishment for say, a M3 level combatant. Why breaking out of an attack, that qualifies as one of the simplest things Kuzan can do, is Doflamingo exclusive? Kuzan's intent was to stop Doflamingo not kill him, I see no reason why someone like Luffy or Zoro wouldn't be able to break free of that thin layer of ice. Hancock can probably free herself through hax, as she can petrify anything she makes contact with at will.



It's certainly not Doflamingo exclusive. *It's something that Doflamingo did, and she has not (nor has she done anything equivalent).* You say you get how feats work, but you keep evidencing that you at the very least don't understand how one uses feats to build an argument about power level.

It matters less whether you think someone on "a certain level" should be able to do that because its subjective and lacking substantive evidence. What matters more is that someone actually objectively did it. And that person is Doflamingo.

The simplest thing that Aokiji could do would be to punch him or do an Ice Age over the entire area. But this attack was meant to incapacitate, and he escaped it. That's an impressive feat. 

For the same reason, I wouldn't argue that Zoro escaping Fujitora's gravity isn't impressive. However, I would argue that Fujitora was distinctly noted to be holding back and has far less going for him thus far than someone like Aokiji.

Also don't see how Hancock can petrify ice off of her. She's demonstrated an ability to petrify body parts and swords of fodder, which is head and shoulders beneath Aokiji's ice (froze Jozu).



Lmao said:


> The mechanics of that ability are still unclear, obviously there's some answer to it otherwise Luffy stands no chance. Still Hancock is a bad match up for the reason I mentioned in the last line above.



I never said there was no answer to it. I just said that CoA, determination, and physical strength, Hancock's best traits besides her fruit, are definitely not the answers.

Hancock is a bad match-up for someone like Sanji. The opposite is true for someone like Doflamingo. She cannot turn anything to stone at will. 



Lmao said:


> Better DF, CoO, CoC are what's subjective.



1. You were talking about more than that originally, but that's okay.
2. I will agree that there is an argument for CoO and DF superiority being subjective.
3. Don't see the argument for CoC being subjective.




Lmao said:


> - The size of Doflamingo's empire is due to him being the most charismatic and influential Shichibukai, something he has even Mihawk beat. Doesn't change the fact they both share the King|Empress parallel.



Yes. These are all things that should make him distinct from Hancock. Isn't that what we're arguing about. I never said his empire resulted from his strength (it did to some extent, but not completely).

Crocodile shares the parallel too.
And as I've said before and as I'm sure you know in your heart of hearts, parallels are farthest thing from indicators of strength.



Lmao said:


> - Sorry, I'm confused here. Are you asking me to show you Momonga's feats or are you doubting the credibility of forcing him to stab himself to avoid petrification as a feat. Which one is it?



I'm asking you to show me Momonga's feats because you said she also demonstrated superiority over a vice admiral with feats.



Lmao said:


> - Making it out of the war unscathed serves as portrayal. What is bounty supposed prove. Child Robin being stronger than Sanji? Teach being absolutely worthless? Ace being a good deal stronger than Doflamingo?



Bounty is equivalent to danger to the government, which is related to strength. Not always obviously. Making it out of the war unscathed, however, is something that virtually can do by limiting their engagement and targeting opponents clearly weaker than them. It's not some subliminal message made by Oda to portray Hancock better than people like Jinbe. Oda has never been one for subliminal messages. He's rather in your face.



Lmao said:


> Those are statements you will have to accept if you're gonna use bounty as an indicator of superiority.



Hancock > Whitebeard
Doflamingo > Aokiji
Jinbe is fodder

These are statements that you will have to accept if you're going to use making it out of the war unscathed as an indicator of superiority.

Does the irony hurt you as you type?



Lmao said:


> But since you mentioned it anyway, _Hancock's 80,000,000 beli bounty is the highest initial bounty ever given_ to date, that's nearly a Supernova level bounty and she earned it in a *single campaign *at the *age of 18*.



Kind of like Pre-Skip Luffy but not nearly as good (and not as a result of combat). Hitting your prime early and going off the map isn't a good thing for your power level. Again, too easy.



Lmao said:


> If he saw her? Absolutely. You're talking about a man who killed _marines_ for not obeying orders/getting in his way, I have no doubt in my mind he would kill Hancock.



Then you're too far gone.



Lmao said:


> At worst lose her position... and subsequently the privileges that come along with it, those being rescinded bounty and protection. In other words, the treaty she has with the WG would be made void, so pray tell me how is compromising her own and her people's safety NOT a big risk?



Do you realize how deep your delving into this comparison? You're talking about danger that she could face years down the road due to her actions and comparing them to the risk of Doflamingo engaging Jozu.

I understand using hypothetical risk to some extent, but that's borderline absurd. 



Lmao said:


> Unless the definition for marine soldiers isn't human being, then that's as direct a betrayal as it gets.



She passed it off as them merely getting caught in the crossfire of her attack. We're talking about a fight here.





*I would like to take a brief moment to remind you of my main points, so that this conversation doesn't get too far off base as we plunge into hypotheticals and comparisons*

1. Doflamingo has demonstrated better feats in essentially every category.
2. Doflamingo has significantly superior hype.
3. Doflamingo gained relevance as an antagonist after Hancock.
4. Doflamingo possesses an ability at least as haxx as Hancock's.
5. Both combatants are technically vulnerable to all of their opponents attacks.
6. Almost never shown against the same level of opponent.
7. When the above six conditions are met (superior hype and feats, later and differentiated relevance,  comparable haxx and vulnerabilities), very rarely are two characters close enough in strength that one could compare the match to something like Luffy v. Sanji.


----------



## tupadre97 (Dec 7, 2013)

Doflamingo high diff


----------



## mr sean66 (Dec 7, 2013)

^^^^^The best part about creating a thread is when people argue for pages on end. It's a bizarre feeling of accomplishment lol




Tamman and lmao are pretty hardcore about this lol. It's pretty damn nerdy but that's not a bad thing the fact that I'm part of these forums makes me kinda a nerd to lmao.


----------



## Zyrax (Dec 7, 2013)

Everyone is a moron.
Doffy pimp slap


----------



## trance (Dec 7, 2013)

IMO, they're more or less equal. I think Hancock has more hax while DD might have greater physical stats with Haki being about the same. Since DD is getting alot of good feats, I'll give it to him high difficulty but that could change.


----------



## mr sean66 (Dec 8, 2013)

I just find it funny to what lengths people argue these points. Props to them lol.


----------



## SunRise (Dec 8, 2013)

I don't see how she can get this at all. 

She portrayed as considerably below.


----------



## Lycka (Dec 8, 2013)

Hancock wins high end mid difficulty.


----------



## Magentabeard (Dec 8, 2013)

Both have similar hype, could go either way,


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Dec 8, 2013)

Doflamingo wins because we've seen more of him.

Otherwise they're pretty equal. I might say Sengoku gave Hancock better hype though.


----------



## SunRise (Dec 10, 2013)

Doflamingo:

* Effortlessly stopped Jozu who can fuck with Admiral.

* Not paid attention at Aokiji behind him like he is nothing (while shown fear of Kaidou from miles away and even something like fear seeing meteor) and then casually broke ice. 

* Stomped 2 high-tiers. Smoker and Law.

* Hyped to be most dangerous Shichibukai.

She clearly can win here 

Remind me why she should have any decent chanse to win againts at least borderline top tier who is considerably stronger that her high-tier's league? 

Beating Pacifista? Clashing with Pre-TS Smoker? Being hot chick?


----------



## Kriemhild Gretchen (Dec 10, 2013)

DD mid difficult, most we saw from Hancock was to break stoned soldiers with her legs, and she probably had haki with it.


----------



## Lmao (Dec 10, 2013)

tanman said:


> What exactly is Hancock's role in the story to you? The way I see it, her value is in her and her army coming during the final war. Just like, Alabasta and its army.


My opinion in Hancock's role in the story is not relevant, the fact Oda has laid enough material to work on is. He portrayed Hancock above prominent VA upon introduction, gave her CoC, a strong DF and the Warlord title. Why go through all the trouble of explicitly giving a character the "powerful" vibe only to limit their plot relevance to basically getting Luffy into ID? That's like saying Jinbe's role in the story was helping Luffy escape ID and latter becoming a meat shield for him in MF. 



tanman said:


> To say she's good enough to give Doflamingo, is to say she would do far better than Sanji and Law. What is there to support that?


_Exhausted _Law pushed Doflamingo to mid difficulty, why on blue earth would Hancock NOT fare any better when the general consensus is that she's slightly stronger than Law (or at least equal)? Do also realize you, along with the people that claim Doflamingo rapes/mid diffs, are a small minority that won't even acknowledge the parallels between the two.



tanman said:


> I'm not using faulty logic. I'm not saying that a fighter can't overcome an opponent with marginally better CoA than them. That's silly. *I'm saying a CQC combatant with far inferior CoA showings won't even be able to hurt Doflamingo.*


You just took a full step into wank territory. If you think high diff is unreasonable then you really ought to take a moment to comprehend how absurd this is. It seems you're a firm supporter of the belief "Doflamingo can toy with M3 level fighters". Show me a panel of Doflamingo making short work of a M3 level fighter that isn't handicapped in some way. Can't? No wonder considering:

Jozu: Wasn't even focusing on him in the first place plus no knowledge.
Smoker: Still recovering + missing jutte.
Law: Exhausted, still manged to push it to mid diff + cut his cheek.
Sanji: No knowledge + it's still unclear whether his right leg is healed.

Sanji one in particular, no one ever mentions we never saw his leg receive any sort of treatment and it just so happens to be the attacking leg against Doflamingo. Coincidence? I think not.



tanman said:


> The thing is that Momonga had no ill will towards Hancock. There was no fight there, unlike with Doflamingo. Not to mention, Doflamingo was leisurely using two vice admirals to play fight for his entertainment.


Momonga's will is not relevant, the fact he was unable to do a single thing other than stab himself is. 



tanman said:


> Doflamingo has a vice admiral almost kill another a vice admiral.
> Hancock makes a vice admiral stab himself to avoid an attack.
> 
> Going to go with Doflamingo on that one.


Doflamingo controls Mozambia while clueless Stainless tries to talk reason into him, only drawing his sword to defend in case he's attacked.

Hancock brought one of the Buster Call VAs to his knees, forcing him to stab himself merely to avoid a casual attack of hers.

It's a matter of how you word it, now you're entitled to believe Doflamingo's case is more impressive all you want, it's not what I was addressing anyway.



tanman said:


> It matters less whether you think someone on "a certain level" should be  able to do that because its subjective and lacking substantive  evidence.


Is Aokiji not moving an inch coupled with the fact the ice layer was thin as hell not enough evidence for you? You mention how Fujitora is distinctly noted to be holding back yet the same doesn't apply for Kuzan performing a no name flash freeze with his hands in his pockets? Where do you find logic in this? :|



tanman said:


> Also don't see how Hancock can petrify ice off of her. She's demonstrated an ability to petrify body  parts and swords of fodder, which is head and shoulders beneath Aokiji's  ice (froze Jozu).
> 
> 3. Don't see the argument for CoC being subjective.


She petrifies whatever her limbs come in contact with, she can even project her ability as a ranged attack, I see no reason why she can't channel her DF's power throughout her entire body. And I sure hope you aren't comparing Kuzan freezing Jozu with Doflamingo.

You're using Doflamingo knocking out G5 fodder feat as some hard fact his CoC is better when we have feats like Luffy knocking out 50.000 fishmen. And while he may indeed have better CoC, that scene is by no means enough to support such claim.



tanman said:


> Yes. These are all things that should make him distinct from Hancock.  Isn't that what we're arguing about.
> 
> I'm asking you to show me Momonga's feats because you said she also demonstrated superiority over a vice admiral with feats.


It is, however characters that share parallels aren't going to be exact copies of one another, that makes no sense. Doflamingo having both better feats/hype, which is the reason he wins 10 times out of 10 everytime he's going to be matched against Hancock, isn't taking away from the fact they share the parallels. The things that give him the edge _aren't_ on such a level one could say there's some gap large enough to warrant mid difficulty. Coming to that conclusion is a result of either: a) overestimating Doflamingo or b) underestimating Hancock.

Momonga had to stab himself due to being vulnerable to petrification, that _is_ a feat.


tanman said:


> Bounty is equivalent to danger to the government, which is related to strength.
> 
> Oda has never been one for subliminal messages. He's rather in your  face.


So you're going to ignore Hancock's bounty has been frozen  since the age of 18 when she was offered Shichibukai invitation and  still claim Doflamingo having more than 4x her amount is in any shape or  form relevant?

You're making it more and more apparent you're not able to fully grasp Oda's writing if you actually believe that.



tanman said:


> Hancock > Whitebeard
> Doflamingo > Aokiji
> Jinbe is fodder
> 
> These are statements that you will have to accept if you're going to use  making it out of the war unscathed as an indicator of  superiority.


It's amazing how you made a faulty comparison that is completely irrelevant to my original point:



> It's no coincidence she, alongside Doflamingo and Mihawk were *the only SHICHIBUKAI* that made it out of the war unscathed.


....



tanman said:


> Hitting your prime early and going off the map isn't a good thing for your power level. Again, too easy.
> 
> Then you're too far gone.


#fanfiction. That accomplishment is not  an indicator of hitting her prime early (most OP characters hit their  prime in their late 30s), but rather showcasing Hancock's incredible  potential at a young age.

Is this supposed to somehow refute the valid point I raised? Because it doesn't.



tanman said:


> You're talking about danger that she could face  years down the road due to her actions and comparing them to the risk of  Doflamingo engaging Jozu.


Down the years? Where are you getting  this from? You betray the WG there's no down the years danger, you're  instantly kicked out and back to being wanted again. She's the only  Shichibukai that attacked the Marine's side ffs.


----------



## Grimsley (Dec 10, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> Blocking Sanji's diable jambe with your leg>Anything Hancock has done.



that's a weak example considering if hancock were to block his kick she would've turned his leg into stone and heavily injured him.


----------



## tanman (Dec 10, 2013)

Lmao said:


> My opinion in Hancock's role in the story is not relevant, the fact Oda has laid enough material to work on is. He portrayed Hancock above prominent VA upon introduction, gave her CoC, a strong DF and the Warlord title. Why go through all the trouble of explicitly giving a character the "powerful" vibe only to limit their plot relevance to basically getting Luffy into ID? That's like saying Jinbe's role in the story was helping Luffy escape ID and latter becoming a meat shield for him in MF.



The difference is that Jinbe actually did that thing. Hancock has never done anything of the sort, nor has it been suggested she would. Do you honestly think that with people like Dragon, Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, Shanks, Aokiji, and so on likely being involved in the final war, that Hancock will be the person getting the spotlight of saving our main character or really of being of any central relevance?

In the above post, you listed what she has. That's what Oda has written. It's not just her "powerful" vibe, it's her power. Not making her central in the future is not limiting her plot relevance. She already had her own arc. And there are dozens of other more relevant characters who haven't yet, or may never have, there own arc. It's a big manga, and it certainly isn't the story of Hancock.

How is how you see her role in the story not relevant when that's basis of your entire argument. What she's done in the past is what she's done in the past. The only reason that you think she would give high difficulty in the future is based on what you think she will do in the future. And you clearly think its big, but it's a huge stretch to try to base that off what she's currently shown.

You're argument is essentially: "She hasn't shown enough to satisfy me, so she must be strong!" You can see why that's flawed, right? You're using circular logic and starting with the assumption that your initial judgement of her power level was correct.




Lmao said:


> _Exhausted _Law pushed Doflamingo to mid difficulty, why on blue earth would Hancock NOT fare any better when the general consensus is that she's slightly stronger than Law (or at least equal)? Do also realize you, along with the people that claim Doflamingo rapes/mid diffs, are a small minority that won't even acknowledge the parallels between the two.



Firstly, I disagree with that "general consensus." Secondly, Law certainly acted on the lower end of mid difficulty. With superior overall feats and comparable hype, I don't see why Hancock would ever be considered stronger than Law. When Law is too exhausted to crank out attacks like the one that took out Vergo, I could see you arguing that they're on the same level. But her giving high difficulty and him giving mid difficulty (near low difficulty) is downright unfathomable based on what we've seen.

You keep saying rapes and mid diffs like they're same thing, which is hugely unfair. Mid Difficulty > Low Difficulty > Rape/Stomp

I'm saying that he struggles with her, and that's giving her a healthy benefit of the doubt based on her hype. Because her feats are no better than the people Doflamingo has already taken down. I already covered Law, more on Sanji later.

I have acknowledged the parallels between them. You're accusing of something other than that what I've done in order to make me seem more disagreeable. I just don't think parallels are even close to a reliable source for constructing power levels, and if you're entire belief that it is happens to be based on what the majority thinks, then you should consider rethinking One Piece.


*But More Importantly*
I don't care if I'm in a minority. The majority doesn't always have the answer. What Coruscation says, what Pimp of Pimps says, what StrawHat4Life says, it's no more relevant to the manga than what any plebeian like myself says. Do you know the sheer number of times that this forum and many others have been wrong? It's fucking unquantifiable. 




Lmao said:


> You just took a full step into wank territory. If you think high diff is unreasonable then you really ought to take a moment to comprehend how absurd this is. It seems you're a firm supporter of the belief "Doflamingo can toy with M3 level fighters". Show me a panel of Doflamingo making short work of a M3 level fighter that isn't handicapped in some way. Can't? No wonder considering:
> 
> Jozu: Wasn't even focusing on him in the first place plus no knowledge.
> Smoker: Still recovering + missing jutte.
> ...



Didn't I compliment you a couple days ago on your civility? I rescind it. It's not wank to say that you can't hurt somebody in CQC who is actively using CoA leagues above yours. That's essentially canon.

I do believe that Doflamingo has more than demonstrated that he's well above the M3.  Of course, that will change when Doflamingo's weakness and/or Luffy's advantage is revealed. But this isn't a full knowledge fight with prep. This is a bloodlusted death match. And Doflamingo v. Sanji is your example of Doflamingo making short work of an M3 level opponent.

*Jozu* has immense physical strength and CoA. Was helpless.
*Smoker* is about portrayal rather than combat. Obviously, not a example based in feats as Smoker wasn't engaging in combat.
*Law* was quite impressive considering exhausted Law also took down Vergo with one mountain cutting shot.
*Sanji*. Here's where you're really grasping at straws. The entire crew including Sanji ate his healing soup. Sanji having sustained an actual injury was never mentioned, and he's been kicking like a champ for two arcs. Please.

No knowledge is relevant, but it isn't an argument because we the reader don't have knowledge on Doflamingo's ability, and neither will Hancock here.




Lmao said:


> Sanji one in particular, no one ever mentions we never saw his leg receive any sort of treatment and it just so happens to be the attacking leg against Doflamingo. Coincidence? I think not.



Well, he has only two legs, and he attacked with his prominent leg that he always uses to attack. Coincidence? I think yes.



Lmao said:


> Momonga's will is not relevant, the fact he was unable to do a single thing other than stab himself is.



If he had killing intent, he could have tried to cut her rather than himself. I'm not saying he's stronger. I'm just saying this isn't a black/white portrayal that demonstrates her superiority.


----------



## tanman (Dec 10, 2013)

Lmao said:


> Doflamingo controls Mozambia while clueless Stainless tries to talk reason into him, only drawing his sword to defend in case he's attacked.



Okay. You reworded it to minimalize the incident. Still, I don't see how Hancock's feats demonstrate as strong a portrayal as Doflamingo, who was literally using vice admirals as puppets.




Lmao said:


> Hancock brought one of the Buster Call VAs to his knees, forcing him to stab himself merely to avoid a casual attack of hers. It's a matter of how you word it, now you're entitled to believe Doflamingo's case is more impressive all you want, it's not what I was addressing anyway.



I've got to say. I'm thoroughly unimpressed with the title of "Buster Call VA" as a hype tool. Also, he got on his knees so that he could stab his hand against the floor. He thought this was a viable alternative to attacking a Shichibukai, a government dog. You make it sound like he was begging for his life.  Also, I don't know where your getting casual from.

You're really pushing the language to hype Hancock here. The scene you describe is not the one in the manga. I can describe each scene in ten words _accurately_, and each time Doflamingo's case will sound more daunting.

And that is what you were addessing. You suggested that Hancock's first appearance was as intimidating as Doflamingo's first appearance (as a result of me using Hancock's Marineford [better] feats to describe her first appearance).




Lmao said:


> Is Aokiji not moving an inch coupled with the fact the ice layer was thin as hell not enough evidence for you? You mention how Fujitora is distinctly noted to be holding back yet the same doesn't apply for Kuzan performing a no name flash freeze with his hands in his pockets? Where do you find logic in this? :|



Aokiji doesn't have a devil fruit that is somehow enhanced by his movement. Neither does taking your hands out of your pockets massively increase the combat ability of someone who is an AOE reliant devil fruit user. Aokiji and Akainu hardly have any named attacks if I recall correctly. A touch may increase his attack's potency, but even that remains to be seen. And that thin layer of ice is the same thickness that was used to put down and dismember Jozu. 

When I say "distinctly noted," I mean that Fujitora said out loud that he was hesitant in turning his sword on the Strawhats.

As a government rogue fighting a Shichibukai that I'm sure he knows to be despicable, that hesitance was without a doubt far more understated.



Lmao said:


> She petrifies whatever her limbs come in contact with, she can even project her ability as a ranged attack, I see no reason why she can't channel her DF's power throughout her entire body. And I sure hope you aren't comparing Kuzan freezing Jozu with Doflamingo.



What I'm saying is that both the ice used to freeze Doflamingo and the ice used to freeze Jozu certainly wasn't your mundane everyday temperature or solidarity. We're talking about the primary ability of an extremely powerful character. Aokiji's ice, at a higher level, was supposedly capable of freezing Whitebeard solid were it not for his quakes. These three incidents were likely at three different level, but the difference isn't as insane as you make it seem.



Lmao said:


> You're using Doflamingo knocking out G5 fodder feat as some hard fact his CoC is better when we have feats like Luffy knocking out 50.000 fishmen. And while he may indeed have better CoC, that scene is by no means enough to support such claim.



Didn't realize that Luffy was Hancock. My bad.



Lmao said:


> *It is, however characters that share parallels aren't going to be exact copies of one another, that makes no sense. Doflamingo having both better feats/hype, which is the reason he wins 10 times out of 10 everytime he's going to be matched against Hancock, isn't taking away from the fact they share the parallels.* The things that give him the edge _aren't_ on such a level one could say there's some gap large enough to warrant mid difficulty. Coming to that conclusion is a result of either: a) overestimating Doflamingo or b) underestimating Hancock.



Everything in bold is agreeable.
However, the conclusion you draw is disagreeable. Being better at virtually everything _does_ warrant a medium difficulty rating (and demonstrably better at somethings, ie CoA). Characters that give other characters high difficulty can edge them out in at least some facet. Sanji can maintain higher speeds than Luffy, and he has a more dangerous substance to produce (fire v. rubber). He also has comparable physical strength and endurance. I can do this for any high difficulty fight (I believe Luffy v. Sanji is more along the lines of very high difficulty, but since you believe it's high difficulty that's enough for the sake of this post). W7 Luffy v. Rob Lucci, W7 Luffy has greater range and comparable strength and stamina. Franky v. Brooke, Brooke has far better speed.

I can't do the same thing for Doflamingo v. Hancock. There's your challenge. That's one my criteria as listed in my previous post:

*
1. Doflamingo has demonstrated better feats in essentially every category.*
2. Doflamingo has significantly superior hype.
3. Doflamingo gained relevance as an antagonist after Hancock.
4. Doflamingo possesses an ability at least as haxx as Hancock's.
5. Both combatants are technically vulnerable to all of their opponents attacks.
6. Almost never shown against the same level of opponent.
7. When the above six conditions are met (superior hype and feats, later and differentiated relevance, comparable haxx and vulnerabilities), very rarely are two characters close enough in strength that one could compare the match to something like Luffy v. Sanji.



Lmao said:


> Momonga had to stab himself due to being vulnerable to petrification, that _is_ a feat.



Are you misunderstanding? I want Momonga's feats, not Hancock's. My argument is that Momonga has shown nothing that makes him so massively better than the other fodder vice admirals. 





Lmao said:


> So you're going to ignore Hancock's bounty has been frozen  since the age of 18 when she was offered Shichibukai invitation and  still claim Doflamingo having more than 4x her amount is in any shape or  form relevant?
> 
> You're making it more and more apparent you're not able to fully grasp Oda's writing if you actually believe that.



I addressed the points that you made above, so clearly I'm not ignoring them. You chose to ignore my responses and selectively quote me so that it looks like I think that bar none, Higher Bounty = High Strength.

Also, tone down the condescension. I can grasp the complexities of a children's manga.




Lmao said:


> It's amazing how you made a faulty comparison that is completely irrelevant to my original point:It's no coincidence she, alongside Doflamingo and Mihawk were the only SHICHIBUKAI that made it out of the war unscathed.



Oh, I see. In that case, I want to make it abundantly clear. It's not a coincidence, but it certainly is not a function of their strength. Curiel being the only Whitebeard Pirate to make it out of the war unscathed does not make him the strongest Whitebeard Pirate. It doesn't matter how you constrain your statement, it's still broken logic. That's why my "faulty" comparison hits the mark.




Lmao said:


> #fanfiction. That accomplishment is not  an indicator of hitting her prime early (most OP characters hit their  prime in their late 30s), but rather showcasing Hancock's incredible  potential at a young age.
> Is this supposed to somehow refute the valid point I raised? Because it doesn't.



Your "valid point," and I hope you understand that the previous phrase is bleeding with sarcasm, was that Hancock's bounty was more impressive because she raised it in a single campaign. As I said in the part that you chose not to quote, many hugely inferior and younger pirates have earned far higher bounties in a single campaign. Bounties hype characters based on their action, but they are not indicators of potential.

My point, of course, is that even if Oda was suggesting massive potential, there's no reason to think that potential wasn't squandered as Hancock essentially hit an early retirement.



Lmao said:


> Down the years? Where are you getting  this from? You betray the WG there's no down the years danger, you're  instantly kicked out and back to being wanted again. She's the only  Shichibukai that attacked the Marine's side ffs.



And every wanted pirate is constantly being hunted by people who pose an actual threat, right? Had to google that to find out it meant "For Fuck's Sake." Despite your frustration, I still am struggling to comprehend how what you're talking about can be compared to what I'm describing other shichibukai doing.


Unfortunately, there are likely many points I made that have been ignored and I'm now having to repeat, but I'm a little bit too wary of the length of this argument to go back and reinforce them all. I must admit that I'm surprised that you didn't address my conclusive statement in the previous post.


----------



## Rob (Dec 10, 2013)

>Makes thread about a match that has been argued to death 
>Knows the fucking answer
>Spite-thread
>


----------



## Lmao (Dec 13, 2013)

tanman said:


> How is how you see her role in the story not relevant when that's basis of your entire argument.
> 
> You're argument is essentially: "She hasn't shown enough to satisfy me,     so she must be strong!" You can see why that's flawed, right? You're     using circular logic and starting with the assumption that your  initial    judgement of her power level was correct.


Err.. no and  no?    Refrain from putting words in my mouth. My entire argument is _'Hancock not having Post-TS feats doesn't make Doflamingo automatically superior'_. It was _you_     who even mentioned her role in the story to which I replied it it's    not  relevant because it simply isn't. She also doesn't need to save  the    main character or be given central relevance or anything like  that, a    short clash|skirmish with someone more appropriate of her  level will    more than do the trick. Marineford really was a massive  clusterfuck  and   is certainly not an arc you can draw conclusions  about a  character's strength based on feats   considering everyone held  back a  great deal, which is PRECISELY what   you're doing to discredit  Hancock.

Your argument is essentially "Hancock has only been shown defeating     Pacifista therefore she can't possibly a match for Doflamingo" I don't have to explain why that's flawed on     every possible level. You're focusing too much on inconclusive feats     that put them apart and neglecting the hype|portrayal|parallels that put   them on a similar   level.



tanman said:


> *I just don't think parallels are even close to a reliable source for  constructing power levels*,     and if you're entire belief that it is  happens to be based on what    the  majority thinks


... and inconclusive feats from a fight    between  combatants of a completely different league (Hancock vs     fodder/Smoker/Pacifista) supposedly are? We don't have solid feats to   judge Hancock's strength, parallels/hype and portrayal are the only   info at our disposal that we can use to make an attempt at gauging where she stands.

And no, my beliefs aren't what the majority thinks and neither are their      beliefs superior to the 'plebeian' minority's, good job     misinterpreting that. The reason I even mentioned that is to point:     "perhaps we are seeing something that you don't" and have you     reconsider your stance since my words don't seem to be reaching you.



tanman said:


> Didn't I compliment you a couple days ago on your     civility? I rescind it. It's not wank to say that you can't hurt     somebody in CQC who is actively using CoA leagues above yours. That's     essentially canon.
> 
> Jozu has immense physical strength and CoA. Was helpless.
> Smoker is about portrayal rather than combat. Obviously, not a example based in feats as Smoker wasn't engaging in combat.
> ...


Do what you will, speaking the truth is not     uncivil. It _is_ wank to say Hancock can't even hurt Doflamingo,   you might as well claim the Admirals can't hurt Whitebeard|he mid  diffs   them because he's virtually and visually well above them. You  are  contradicting yourself actually:



> Mid difficulty isn't a huge margin.


When you can't even     hurt your opponent then yes, it implies the power difference is pretty     damn big. Even Hody managed to hurt Luffy, thinking that Hancock  can't  hurt Doflamingo is asinine.

*Jozu:* The mechanics of that ability are unknown, we've covered     that already. Unless you want to argue Doflamingo was restraining Jozu     through physical strength which is... yeah.
*Smoker:*  Even being portrayed superior to recovering Smoker is no basis of Doflamingo being _well above _M3 level combatants.
*Law:* Except he was facing an Admiral and Doflamingo     himself combined before he later pushed him to mid difficulty.   Hardly   comparable.
*Sanji:* So Sanji's soup has magical properties that are capable of healing a  Please. At best it replenishes their lost stamina at a faster rate.

Of course no knowledge is an argument, especially against such an     ability. Casually restraining Jozu - being pushed to mid difficulty by     exhausted Law. It makes all the difference.



tanman said:


> If he had killing intent, he could have tried to     cut her rather than himself. I'm not saying he's stronger. I'm just     saying this isn't a black/white portrayal that demonstrates her     superiority.
> 
> Still, I don't see how Hancock's feats   demonstrate as strong a   portrayal as Doflamingo, who was literally   using vice admiral(*s*) as  puppets.


_'If Mozambia had killing intent, he could have tried attacking Doflamingo'_, we can play hypothetical what ifs all day. Both of them had a strong portrayal, nothing more nothing less.

Plural? Doflamingo only   controlled Mozambia, who as a VC has far less going for him than   Momonga, Stainless was never under Doflamingo's control, reread the   scene.



tanman said:


> You're really pushing the language to hype   Hancock here. The scene you describe is not the one in the manga.
> 
> And that is what you were addessing.You suggested that Hancock's first   appearance was as intimidating as Doflamingo's first appearance


It was an example of how wording can affect the interpretation   of a scene, NOT an argument to make Hancock's scene seem more   impressive. :/

It's not. Let's see what I was actually addressing:


Do I mention anything about intimidating appearances? No? Moving on.



tanman said:


> We're talking about the primary ability of an   extremely powerful  character. Aokiji's ice, at a higher level, was   supposedly capable of  freezing Whitebeard solid were it not for his   quakes. These three  incidents were likely at three different level, but   the difference isn't  as insane as you make it seem.


The   difference is quite big when you take into account how his ice has   affected different characters. It's not as simple as 'ice being his   primary ability', Aokiji also froze Buggy & co./Robin/Luffy, the   latter two through direct touch even. Did any of them experience as deep   a freezing as Jozu, whose    almost as soon as Aokiji was done? Apparently not. Now that flash   freeze on Doflamingo was obviously at a higher level than the   aforementioned  but it's still nowhere near the ice used on   Whitebeard|Jozu, even more so when Kuzan's intent was NOT to kill. That   scene is more about portrayal rather than the feat being unfathomable   for anyone below Doflamingo.



tanman said:


> Didn't realize that Luffy was Hancock. My   bad.


Missing the point as per usual. Knocking out G5 fodder is   not as impressive as you make it out to be when Luffy can knock out   50.000 fishmen. Can Doflamingo's CoC do better? Obviously yes. Is that   scene enough to prove his CoC is superior to Hancock's? Absolutely not.



tanman said:


> I can't do the same thing for Doflamingo v.   Hancock. There's your  challenge. That's one my criteria as listed in my   previous post:
> *
> 1. Doflamingo has demonstrated better feats in essentially every category.*


Hancock   vs Doflamingo. Hancock has comparable range and crippling hax. Regarding the bold, I thought we agreed CoO|DF superiority are   subjective? 


> 2. I will agree that there is an argument for CoO and DF   superiority being subjective.


Those two are very important   factors of a character's strength.



tanman said:


> My argument is that Momonga has shown nothing that makes him so massively better than the other fodder vice admirals.


Well he doesn't have combat feats per se, he has better portrayal. We saw the Ohara Buster Call consisted of VA Sakazuki & Kuzan, we can only infer Oda intended the most exceptional VAs to be part of the Buster Call. So Momonga's hype is enough to scale him to at least Vergo level, who in turn is M3 level. Hancock had strong portrayal against Momonga and by extension Vergo level fighters (M3), which perfectly justifies her giving Doflamingo high difficulty.



tanman said:


> I addressed the points that you made above, so clearly I'm not ignoring  them. You chose to ignore my responses and selectively quote me so that  it looks like I think that bar none, Higher Bounty = High Strength.


In reply to my question: _"What is bounty supposed to prove"_, you answer _"Bounty is equivalent to danger to the government, which is related to strength. Not always obviously."_. I see nothing among those lines that addresses Hancock's bounty being frozen since the age of 18, so I'll ask you again: how is Doflamingo having 4x her bounty amount in any shape relevant?



tanman said:


> It's not a coincidence, but it certainly is not a function of their  strength. Curiel being the only Whitebeard Pirate to make it out of the  war unscathed does not make him the strongest Whitebeard Pirate.


I never claimed it's a function of their strength, that's not how portrayal works.  

You must be mistaken, 



tanman said:


> Your "valid point," and I hope you understand that the previous phrase  is bleeding with sarcasm, was that Hancock's bounty was more impressive  because she raised it in a single campaign. As I said in the part that  you chose not to quote, *many hugely inferior* and younger pirates *have  earned* *far higher bounties* in a *single campaign*.




Do at least try to read the posts properly. And where exactly is the part I 'chose not to quote' that fits the bold criteria because I don't seem to find it anywhere?



tanman said:


> My point, of course, is that even if Oda was suggesting massive  potential, there's no reason to think that potential wasn't squandered  as Hancock essentially hit an early retirement.


So Oda suggested Hancock's potential only to have us think it was squandered due to her Shichibukai status, yeah that makes a lot of sense.. :/


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## Onigumo (Dec 13, 2013)

In terms of feats and hype, Doffy has Hancock beat. Doffy high difficulty for the time being.


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## Captain Altintop (Dec 14, 2013)

I see Hancock stronger than current M3, but still weaker than any top tier fighter.

DD should take this high difficulty.


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## Gulbana (Dec 14, 2013)

Doflamingo mid-high diff.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Dec 14, 2013)

At the moment I'm giving it to Doflamingo until we see more from Hancock. 

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Hancock was stronger than him though.


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