# Fei Vs Galactus



## Hale (Mar 18, 2011)

Fei From Xenogears, Vs Galactus from marvel


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## Lucifeller (Mar 18, 2011)

Fei is the conduit for a multiversal's power - Galactus IS a multiversal, not just a conduit.

That alone doesn't make it look too good for Fei...


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## Hale (Mar 18, 2011)

Hmm I thought that as a conduit fei Had complete access and was multiversal... Been a while since i played xeno, though If i add Kos Mos Does that even up the fight


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## Lucifeller (Mar 18, 2011)

...why should KOS MOS make any difference? Third Armament barely matches the widespread ruin caused by a pissed off Galactus just waking up from being used as a battery by Annihilus. Keep in mind Galactus was practically starved to death at that point... and still annihilated the entire Annihilation Wave and took out two star systems in the vicinity as a simple side effect - and the massive wave of destruction he unleashed was STILL going at that point. Just how much damage that fit of insane rage while drained to near death did is unknown... all I know is it made most of the Marvelverse soil their collective undies.


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## lambda (Mar 18, 2011)

Fei can outlast him if nothing else.


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 18, 2011)

What is KOS-MOS even as Mary supposed to do?She's at best cubed being level if we go with her being even with Chaos/Yeshua who powered the the universal reseting Zarathrusthra. If Galactus has the UN here he just has to use it.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2011)

Galactus eats him


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## lambda (Mar 18, 2011)

Tranquil Fury said:


> What is KOS-MOS even as Mary supposed to do?She's at best cubed being level if we go with her being even with Chaos/Yeshua who powered the the universal reseting Zarathrusthra. If Galactus has the UN here he just has to use it.


Fei negates it.



Endless Mike said:


> Galactus eats him


Not happening either.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2011)

Negate the UN? How?


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## lambda (Mar 18, 2011)

Through manipulation of the future. Fei can rewrite future event so they works out in his favor, even if the probability of that outcome was originally zero.

Well, it's not Fei who does it, but the result is the same.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2011)

That really doesn't mean much against something that can completely annihilate time and space


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## Lucifeller (Mar 18, 2011)

It should be noted that Fei, as the conduit of an infinite source of energy, quite literally is the equivalent of a big neon "FREE ALL YOU CAN EAT BUFFET" in Galactus's eyes. He's literally the answer to his neverending hunger, so I actually see him going to great lengths to subdue without harming, which opens a whole other can of worms since the Power Cosmic CAN reality-warp something fierce and for all that he wields a multiversal's power, Fei himself is ultimately mortal and thus prone to being screwed with without being aware of it.


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## Bender (Mar 18, 2011)

You have got to be shitting me.

How the fuck could Fei stalemate much less beat Galactus?


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## lambda (Mar 18, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> That really doesn't mean much against something that can completely annihilate time and space


That doesn't really matter to Fei either.

The point is that the WE can instantly rewrite events so they turn out in Fei's favor.



Bender said:


> You have got to be shitting me.
> 
> How the fuck could Fei stalemate much less beat Galactus?


The same way the Phoenix Force can, being absurdly powerful.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2011)

And the UN instantly destroyed and recreated an infinite multiverse


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## lambda (Mar 18, 2011)

So?


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2011)

So, that's way beyond anything Fei has


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## lambda (Mar 18, 2011)

Not really. The WE existence creates universes just by existing and its power is literally infinite. It would simply create a future where Fei isn't destroyed.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2011)

Having literally infinite power is something a Cube Being can do. Yet as Kubik pointed out, there are multiple levels of infinity. Celestials are beyond Cube Beings, Eternity is beyond Celestials, Multi-Eternity is infinitely beyond Eternity, and the UN destroyed and recreated Multi-Eternity instantly.


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## lambda (Mar 18, 2011)

Lol, multiple level of infinity.

Then the WE level of infinite multiversal creation is superior to Galactus.


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## Enclave (Mar 18, 2011)

Galactus would turn Fei into a battery.  He's done it before with Hyperstorm.

Fei just doesn't have the energy output needed to be a threat to the big G while the big G can easily overpower Fei.



lambda said:


> Lol, multiple level of infinity.



It's called Set theory.



> Then the WE level of infinite multiversal creation is superior to Galactus.



Prove it.  Feat wise Galactus completely stomps anything Fei has ever done.


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## lambda (Mar 18, 2011)

The WE amp him up until he can.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2011)

lambda said:


> Lol, multiple level of infinity.



That's a real concept in science and mathematics, you know.



> Then the WE level of infinite multiversal creation is superior to Galactus.



Prove it.



lambda said:


> The WE amp him up until he can.



Prove it.


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## lambda (Mar 18, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> That's a real concept in science and mathematics, you know.


An infinite group isn't the same as Infinity.


> Prove it.
> 
> 
> 
> Prove it.


Prove that Galactus Level of infinity is superior to the WE.


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## Enclave (Mar 18, 2011)

lambda said:


> An infinite group isn't the same as Infinity.
> Prove that Galactus Level of infinity is superior to the WE.



lambda, I'd edited my previous post not aware that you'd already responded.  Please read it.


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## Bender (Mar 18, 2011)

lambda said:


> The same way the Phoenix Force can, being absurdly powerful.



I need to replay Xenogears


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2011)

lambda said:


> An infinite group isn't the same as Infinity.







> Prove that Galactus Level of infinity is superior to the WE.



I already gave the feat of instantly destroying and recreating an infinite multiverse. Show me something that tops that.


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## lambda (Mar 18, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> An infinite *set* isn't the same as Infinity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2011)

lambda said:


> An infinite *set* isn't the same as Infinity.



Sets can be levels of infinity.



> The WE is responsible for the creation of the xeno multiverse. Effortlessly might I add.



How many universes are there, and how long did it take to create them?


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## Superbot400 (Mar 18, 2011)

lambda said:


> Through manipulation of the future. Fei can rewrite future event so they works out in his favor, even if the probability of that outcome was originally zero.


Which Galan(Galactus) can basically do with the UN. Assuming of course that his power cosmic couldn't manipulate time either.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2011)

It can - Surfer can casually fuck with time and Galactus gave him his powers.


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## Enclave (Mar 18, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> How many universes are there, and how long did it take to create them?



As I recall there is only 1 confirmed universe in Xenogears and no specified time it took for the WE to create it.


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## Big Bοss (Mar 18, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> .
> How many universes are there, and how long did it take to create them?



A 4 Dimensional universe, plus all the souls of the people that live in it created by the spilling of a mere drop of the WE.

Like lambda said the WE existence creates universes just by existing and its power is literally infinite.



> Now let's use some images to explain things better so you can understand:
> 
> For example this is the WE:
> 
> ...



It didn't take time it was instantly that is why Fei can use PAS to overpower his enemies instantly too.



> Through manipulation of the future. Fei can rewrite future event so they works out in his favor, even if the probability of that outcome was originally zero.



The WE is infinite like a endless ocean and each drop has the power to create universes without problems, that is why the WE can and will turn things in Fei's favor, event the outcome that doesn't exist is possible for the WE, which by the way controls time and space.

Even the Zohar has the ability to create and manipulate infinite universes, and the Zohar is shit compared to the WE.

Is fucking funny how in every versus we have to explain the same shit over and over again.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2011)

And that doesn't really seem to compare much to Multi-Eternity, who the UN erased and recreated instantly.


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## Big Bοss (Mar 18, 2011)

The WE can created universes just by existing and it is an infinite source of energy, oh and like I said the zohar that is shit compared to the WE can already create and manipulate infinite universes, so I really don't see your point.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2011)

Like I said, a Cube Being is an infinite source of energy. Galactus is like 2 tiers above that.


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## Big Bοss (Mar 18, 2011)

So they can also create universe by just existing? can they instantly rewrite events so  their work out in their favor, even if the probability of that outcome was originally zero aka even the outcome that doesn't exist?

Oh and prove that Galactus Level of infinity is superior to the WE.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2011)

Any two-bit reality warper can do that. Molecule Man and Beyonder (Post-Retcon) were causing damage to the entire multiverse as a side effect of fighting.


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## Big Bοss (Mar 18, 2011)

That doesn't sound like anything I just mention Mike.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2011)

Anyway this is Fei vs. Galactus, not WE vs. Galactus.


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## Big Bοss (Mar 18, 2011)

Fei's PAS is thanks to the WE that is why we mention it/he/her.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2011)

And do you really think simple causality manipulation like that can stymie Galactus?


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## Enclave (Mar 18, 2011)

Grαhf said:


> That doesn't sound like anything I just mention Mike.



Eh, Franklin Richards subconsciously created a pocket universe without even realising it and this is when he's a child long before his powers get REALLY strong.

Basically, any reality warper worth their salt in Marvel should be able to create universes.  It's not all that big of a feat when you're talking about beings like the multiversal aspects.

Grahf, this is an instance where you may actually have to admit that Xenogears loses.


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## Lucifeller (Mar 18, 2011)

It should be noted that there's evidence Galactus is immune to paradoxes and causality due to overruling them. Case in point, the fact that he's both omnipresent (there's a Galactus in every universe, and they are ALL part of the same fundamental being) and unique (no more than one Galactus can exist in each universe, it's a hardcoded rule), and both of those rules are actively enforced by the multiverse itself.

Evidence for that comes from Marvel Zombies Return, where the Earth-2149 Cosmic Zombie Galactii end up on Earth-Z... and are immediately stripped of their Galactus status because, y'know, this universe has a still-active Galactus. And since they are intruders and not the originals, it makes sense their Galactus status was revoked as soon as they showed up.

If memory serves, Spider Man even theorizes that's what happened.

In short, BEING Galactus in itself makes you more or less untouchable by things like causality and paradoxes, because you are a multiversal fundamental force that exists everywhere at once, and can't really be 'erased', or 'changed', without EVERY OTHER one being changed as well.


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## Big Bοss (Mar 18, 2011)

You calling it simple won't it make less broken.

Some images to explain why this "simple" thing is enough.





Rewrite future events so they work out in his favor, even if the probability of that outcome was originally zero (outcome that doesn't exist).

And give him the power necessary to destroy his enemy.


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## Lucifeller (Mar 18, 2011)

Rewriting future events is all nice and good... except the Ultimate Nullifier wipes TIMESPACE ITSELF out, so there literally IS NO FUTURE to change.

Just saying.


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## Big Bοss (Mar 18, 2011)

Lucifeller said:


> Rewriting future events is all nice and good... except the Ultimate Nullifier wipes TIMESPACE ITSELF out, so there literally IS NO FUTURE to change.
> 
> Just saying.



Good thing the WE creates and controls time and space, you know that is where the part of even if the probability of that outcome was originally zero (outcome that doesn't exist) comes into play.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2011)

Again, that's really just basic reality warping... claiming it will allow him to beat Galactus is completely baseless.

I suggest you take a look at these scans:






"His sheer presence can alter reality"
"Galactus hits you on hundreds of different levels, each a separate plane of reality"
"He might drop you into the past, or the future, or an alternate reality"
"What we normally see of Galactus is merely an iceberg's cosmic tip, he has no dimensions, no boundaries at all"

Keep in mind Galactus wasn't even fighting consciously here, this was all reflex and he was mostly ignoring them


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## Big Bοss (Mar 18, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Again, that's really just basic reality warping... claiming it will allow him to beat Galactus is completely baseless.



Is not baseless at all when we already prove that this isn't basic reality warping, please having the ability to create an outcome that is impossible isn't somenthing reality warpers can do, that in fact is baseless.

WE PAS =/= any reality waper power




> "His sheer presence can alter reality"



Impressive but ussels in this battle.



> "Galactus hits you on hundreds of different levels, each a separate plane of reality"



And the Zohar who doesn't hold a candle to the WE can create and manipulate infinite universes instantly, now Fei's PAS that allows him to create outcomes that are impossible what do you think it would do?



> "He might drop you into the past, or the future, or an alternate reality"



Again not going to matter against someone that has the power to control time and space, create and manipulate infinite universes and create outcomes that are impossible.



> "What we normally see of Galactus is merely an iceberg's cosmic tip, he has no dimensions, no boundaries at all"



Nice.



> Keep in mind Galactus wasn't even fighting consciously here, this was all reflex and he was mostly ignoring them



And the WE creates universes by inadvertence.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 18, 2011)

Grαhf said:


> Is not baseless at all when we already prove that this isn't basic reality warping, please having the ability to create an outcome that is impossible isn't somenthing reality warpers can do, that in fact is baseless.



Actually that's pretty much the definition of reality warping.



> Impressive but ussels in this battle.



Why, because you say so?



> And the Zohar who doesn't hold a candle to the WE can create and manipulate infinite universes instantly, now Fei's PAS that allows him to create outcomes that are impossible what do you think it would do?



Explain the conditions of the creation and manipulation.

What would it do? In this case, absolutely nothing. It's nothing but a fancy parlor trick to Big G.



> Again not going to matter against someone that has the power to control time and space, create and manipulate infinite universes and create outcomes that are impossible.



You fail to define "impossible". It's impossible to move faster than light but a simple Herald with the tiniest fraction of Galactus' power can do that effortlessly.



> And the WE creates universes by inadvertence.



Which is not even the one fighting


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## Zaelapolopollo (Mar 18, 2011)

Hale said:


> Hmm I thought that as a conduit fei Had complete access and was multiversal... Been a while since i played xeno, though If i add Kos Mos Does that even up the fight



Kossy, as Mary, could be powerscaled to be a universe buster.

Fei's got that covered since he destroyed the Zohar and all.

Only thing on par with Fei in Xenosaga is Abel and the XS version of the Zohar.


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## Lucifeller (Mar 18, 2011)

Creating an outcome that's impossible is what LONGSHOT does all the time. His mutant power is to ignore probability and get very lucky, even if the success probability is zero percent.

So basically... Fei's power is something some piddly Marvel mutant can do in his sleep, literally? How nice...

That's not even mentioning Scarlet Witch, whose chaos magic explicitly "makes the impossible, possible".


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## Zaelapolopollo (Mar 19, 2011)

Except Fei combines making the impossible possible with an infinite supply of energy from a multiversal being.


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## Superbot400 (Mar 19, 2011)

This
broken
broken

Is no different to Post-Retcon Beyonder and Molecule Man warping events across the mutiverse like this. As they state a Skrull Statue apparently cried, average joes lunches became hungry, A watcher goes blinds, etc. 


The reason for beginning this up is because They are actually both Cosmic Cubes. Galactus is often consider to be on par with Cosmic Cubes or Celestials(Who are more powerful than cubes).


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## Enclave (Mar 19, 2011)

Superbot400 said:


> The reason for beginning this up is because They are actually both Cosmic Cubes. Galactus is often consider to be on par with Cosmic Cubes or Celestials(Who are more powerful than cubes).



Actually Cosmic Cubes are like ants to a Celestial and Celestials are like ants to Galactus.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Mar 19, 2011)

Since when?

Maybe it's because Big G is a jobber 99% of the time and has an impressive feat once every few years but when did he schoot up the cosmic scale to being several orders more powerful than a Celestial?

What feats of his are beyond anything the strongest Celestials have done by that much?

Also people need to stop comparing apples to oranges. Cosmic Cubes are not Galactus and his being stronger than them does not mean he can replicate their feats. They are entirely different types of beings with vastly different abilities.


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## Enclave (Mar 19, 2011)

The reason you see Galactus not always being very impressive is that generally speaking he gets assaulted by powerful beings when he's totally starving and even then he's generally stronger than anything that gets thrown against him.

You have to remember, Galactus is one of the aspects.  Death, Eternity, Infinity and the rest of them consider him their brother.  That is the true Galactus.  These are beings which dwarf all but the Living Tribunal and The One Above All.

The only way most any beings in Marvel ever pose a challenge to Galactus is when Galactus is jobbing or on the verge of death from starvation.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Mar 19, 2011)

Galactus is their brother because they're all vital aspects of universe/multiverse.

But there's no way the average Galactus is as powerful as them. I believe it's been said that, at full power, he is their equal but he's almost always running at "hungry" and therefore is not at full power.

Celestials are Eternity's creation and have some pretty impressive feats. I really wouldn't consider Galactus at his usual levels above them at all, let alone vastly superior to them.


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## Bender (Mar 19, 2011)

Galactus got his ass power blasted by Thanos but then came back for him.


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## Lucifeller (Mar 19, 2011)

Galactus also was at ground zero of two planets smashing into each other AFTER being assaulted by a dangerous dimension-eater - and there was a planet's worth of weapons in the same place he was crushed inbetween.

He was pissed because his plans had been ruined due to Thanos's interference (yes, it was Thanos that threw a Jupiter-sized planet at him like that while he was preoccupied), but aside from some wardrobe damage (most of which was done by said dimension-eater), he was completely fine and just very, very pissed off at the Titan. He ended up letting Thanos go because he explained his motives, but he wasn't a happy camper.

Right before that event, Thanos tried to surprise mindrape him with Moondragon's help, but all he got for it was that Galactus got mad and nearly swatted him like a bug - he ran away just in the nick of time and Moondragon got a nasty feedback from Galactus's anger.


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## Big Bοss (Mar 19, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Actually that's pretty much the definition of reality warping.



No shit, so any reality warper can do this:



> Make the impossible possible with an infinite supply of energy from a multiversal being.



Yeah no.



> Why, because you say so?



Because is going to mean shit against someone that can shift trought infinite universes instantly.




> Explain the conditions of the creation and manipulation.
> 
> What would it do? In this case, absolutely nothing. It's nothing but a fancy parlor trick to Big G.



Mike the images are pretty clear:





All of this happens instantly.

Plus lambda, Anti and I already explain this, the WE is an infinite source of energy that created and controls time and space, and can create universes by just existing, for example Fei needs the power to defeat Galactus then the WE would give him that power aka need speed? got it, need durability? go it, need power? got it etc, you know being and infinite source and all the jazz I explained above. 

Now apart from this is the fact that the WE can shift and manipulate trought infinite universes instantly, meaning that while Fei is fighting the WE is rewriting the future to the one in which Fei wins and this is the part in which *even if the probability of that outcome was originally zero (outcome that doesn't exist)* comes into play, this shit isn't getting lucky, this is PAS creating the universe/reality/future in which Fei beats his enemy.

That is why lambda said that the UN won't work because the WE has the power to negate it, now tell me how many reality warpers can do that? I bet LONGSHOT can do it amiright?



> You fail to define "impossible". It's impossible to move faster than light but a simple Herald with the tiniest fraction of Galactus' power can do that effortlessly.



Not really, the "impossible" means that Fei would beat Galactus because PAS has the power to make that happen, once again I would like to see any reality warper doing this.



> Which is not even the one fighting



How hard is for you to understand that the power Fei has and uses is thanks to the WE.

If this was truly nothing but a fancy parlor trick to Big G he wouldn't be defeated like he has by other people, if any RW can do what the WE can then they wouldn't be defeated either because they would have the ability to win even if it is impossible.

Now not saying that Fei is unbeatable but to be able to defeat him you would need a bigger scope or some crazy shit which Galactus doesn't have.


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## lambda (Mar 19, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Anyway this is Fei vs. Galactus, not WE vs. Galactus.


The sum of the WE's power resides in Fei, they're pretty much completely intertwined with each other.

Anyway, there's nothing Galactus can do to Fei and there's only one fighter here who irremediably grow weaker with time. The outcome is obvious.


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## Enclave (Mar 19, 2011)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Galactus is their brother because they're all vital aspects of universe/multiverse.
> 
> But there's no way the average Galactus is as powerful as them. I believe it's been said that, at full power, he is their equal but he's almost always running at "hungry" and therefore is not at full power.
> 
> Celestials are Eternity's creation and have some pretty impressive feats. I really wouldn't consider Galactus at his usual levels above them at all, let alone vastly superior to them.



Yes he's almost always running at "hungry" but even at "hungry" he's above Celestials and Cosmic Cubes.



lambda said:


> The sum of the WE's power resides in Fei, they're pretty much completely intertwined with each other.
> 
> Anyway, there's nothing Galactus can do to Fei and there's only one fighter here who irremediably grow weaker with time. The outcome is obvious.



Actually after they meet neither of them would grow irredemiably weaker with time since Galactus would turn Fei into an infinite energy battery.  This fight would make Galactus never need to feed again.


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## Lucifeller (Mar 19, 2011)

At least one version of Galactus (the Earth X one) literally EATS Celestials, which he views as nothing more than pests.

Just saying...


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## lambda (Mar 19, 2011)

Enclave said:


> Actually after they meet neither of them would grow irredemiably weaker with time since Galactus would turn Fei into an infinite energy battery.  This fight would make Galactus never need to feed again.


 Yeah, because clearly Fei can't keep him from doing that.


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## Enclave (Mar 19, 2011)

No, he can't.  I've played Xenogears multiple times, not once has he shown a feat that is on any sort of level that would allow him to do so.


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## Big Bοss (Mar 19, 2011)

Right because with what PAS can do won't allow him to prevent that, I love when people come and say "I played Xenogears blub blub" but fail to understand how things work.

But ok in the last fight, Fei vs Krelian (wave beign)/Uroboros two beings that used wave energy ergo had infinite energy weren't able to do nothing against Fei, what makes you think Galactus has any chance?

Btw to understand Xenogears you will need to read PW too which you clearly haven't.


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## Superbot400 (Mar 19, 2011)

> Galactus is their brother because they're all vital aspects of universe/multiverse.


...No. They are just pawns of Eternity or whereas   

credit-original scanners.


> But there's no way the average Galactus is as powerful as them. I believe it's been said that, at full power, he is their equal but he's almost always running at "hungry" and therefore is not at full power.


Why not? The average Celestial is compared to Franklin Richards in power. Galactus absorbed the spirit of his previous universe to become what he is now. Exitar, Arishem, Tiamut, or other named 616 Celestials are likely to be more powerful than the average one. 

There is no reason why Galactus wouldn't be more powerful than a cannon fodder Celestial. Even the Galactus that Tiamut manipulated was capable of eating Tiamut.


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## Hale (Mar 19, 2011)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Kossy, as Mary, could be powerscaled to be a universe buster.
> 
> Fei's got that covered since he destroyed the Zohar and all.
> 
> Only thing on par with Fei in Xenosaga is Abel and the XS version of the Zohar.



ok was just wondering never got into xenosaga like i did gears didn't get past the first game, what's this pw thats been mentioned about xenogears?


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## Endless Mike (Mar 19, 2011)

You know Galactus fought a guy called Hyperstorm who had an infinite source of energy that he could draw on do do anything he wanted. Galactus fed on him like one of Willy Wonka's neverending gobstoppers.

Hell, it was implied that Galactus even finished consuming him, in other words the guy could draw on infinite power from hyperspace (which transcends any single universe, making it multiversal), and Galactus still sucked him dry and spit him out.

Despite all of the wanking going on here, Galactus wins. Get over it.


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## Big Bοss (Mar 19, 2011)

Not really despite all of your downplaying he doesn't.

Deal with it.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 19, 2011)

Why? Because you say so? All of your arguments have been refuted.


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## Xelloss (Mar 20, 2011)

I got 3 request for this to be closed if the OP want it closed PM me.


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## Keollyn (Mar 20, 2011)

Enclave said:


> No, he can't.  I've played Xenogears multiple times, not once has he shown a feat that is on any sort of level that would allow him to do so.



A punch to the face. How could you have not seen that?

P.S. In the end, we know Fei wins. Anyone who thinks Galactus would win are just in denial. They should just


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## Id (Mar 20, 2011)

And a new player enters the stage.

Diablo Corps  



Lucifeller said:


> Rewriting future events is all nice and good... except the Ultimate Nullifier wipes TIMESPACE ITSELF out, so there literally IS NO FUTURE to change.
> 
> Just saying.



The Power of the WE is to create. As in creating the current Universe where Fei stands, and creating realities to match its desire when shifting/merging them fail. 

You have to come to terms that Fie is not restricted to just future phenomena.


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## Keollyn (Mar 21, 2011)

I like this new player.

And I like how these current players are one-siding the game 



X-Man said:


> The Power of the WE is to create. As in creating the current Universe where Fei stands, and creating realities to match its desire when shifting/merging them fail.
> 
> You have to come to terms that Fie is not restricted to just future phenomena.



And to add to that, you literally have a being who's recreating the timeline from the beginning of the birth of the universe, and shaping it in a way where Fei will ultimately--in the end--have his way.

So you have to be able to override someone who's literally starting time over whenever he wants his avatar wish granted.

This is what we mean when we say a new universe is being created. Oh, and infant Zohar can do this too


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## Id (Mar 21, 2011)

Heh I didn't even know this topic was closed.


/opens



Enclave said:


> Galactus would turn Fei into a battery.  He's done it before with Hyperstorm.



The Zohar can turn Galactus into a battery. He's done it before to the WE.


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## Fang (Mar 21, 2011)

Galactus stomps.

He turns Fei/WE into an infinite battery pack.


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## lambda (Mar 21, 2011)

On topic, Fei eats Galactus.


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## Keollyn (Mar 21, 2011)

~Blitz~ said:


> Quite a pause here.
> 
> 
> Should I or should I not post a video of Marvel bitches?



Do you really have to ask?



lambda said:


> On topic, Fei eats Galactus.



What is G's best feat? Only real counter I see in here was UN. But anytime I ask about the UN, answers are very... inconsistent.

Because now that the thread is open, and the whining subsided, I will honestly say Fei punches him. In the face.

And I will be expecting retorts.


----------



## Judas (Mar 21, 2011)

Might as well start things slow...


*Spoiler*: __ 



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhjI2JzNHKM[/YOUTUBE]




The UN seems like a viable option, but I'm not convinced that it would really tip things in Big G's favor.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Mar 21, 2011)

Okay, I cleaned up the thread.  I'm going to leave it open for now under the hope that the recent posts will evolve into actual discussion or debate.

If the thread is played out then just let it die.


----------



## Keollyn (Mar 21, 2011)

~Blitz~ said:


> Might as well start things slow...
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Emma Frost. Always a good opener.


----------



## Endless Mike (Mar 21, 2011)

Glad to see you guys finally stopped pussying out and reopened the thread.

Now to tear you a new one:



X-Man said:


> And a new player enters the stage.
> 
> Diablo Corps
> 
> ...



The UN instantly destroyed and recreated the 616 Multiverse minus Abraxas. Abraxas was causing universes to collapse just by approaching them. The multiverse has infinite universes.



Keollyn said:


> And to add to that, you literally have a being who's recreating the timeline from the beginning of the birth of the universe, and shaping it in a way where Fei will ultimately--in the end--have his way.



Too bad a Cube Being can do that and FP Galactus shits on them.



> So you have to be able to override someone who's literally starting time over whenever he wants his avatar wish granted.



See this guy?



His name is Kronos. He's the embodiment of time. He can do everything you just mentioned and more.

When Thanos had the Cosmic Cube he imprisoned him easily. Thanos w/cc > Sentient Cube Beings < Celestials <= Galactus.



X-Man said:


> Heh I didn't even know this topic was closed.



Suuuure you didn't.... 



> The Zohar can turn Galactus into a battery. He's done it before to the WE.



Got any actual evidence other than baseless assertions?



lambda said:


> On topic, Fei eats Galactus.



No



Keollyn said:


> What is G's best feat? Only real counter I see in here was UN. But anytime I ask about the UN, answers are very... inconsistent.





Read the 6th post on this thread for all you need to know about the UN (yeah, some of the guy's scans are expired but I've got the relevant ones of Multi-Eternity being destroyed)



> Because now that the thread is open, and the whining subsided, I will honestly say Fei punches him. In the face.



Which would do.... absolutely nothing. Congratulations.


----------



## Keollyn (Mar 21, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Too bad a Cube Being can do that and FP Galactus shits on them.



Oh my, they can do what the Zohar can do? 

You seem to be following the whole DBZ arguments you hate so much. Tell me what G has done.




> Read the 6th post on this thread for all you need to know about the UN (yeah, some of the guy's scans are expired but I've got the relevant ones of Multi-Eternity being destroyed)



So it destroyed a multiverse...

Yet again, not at all seeing how UN is beating Fei. But I'll tell you before you go on your usual antics: _I need context._ 

If you want me to think multiverse power is enough to beat Fei, you're going to have to explain better than "read his post" from a respect thread (respect threads don't actually help all that much really)

Is there something special about this multiverse being destroyed? Is it contaminated with multiversal adamantium 

Really, destroying a multiverse... something I knew it could do, and still feel no changes in my stance.



> Which would do.... absolutely nothing. Congratulations.



You mean the same punches that completely brought destruction to an entire dimension... as a side effect? Same dimension that can have a universal level energy pass through it without so much as a shake?

Best I hear G doing is galaxy. He's not competing with that, if that's all he got.


----------



## Endless Mike (Mar 21, 2011)

Keollyn said:


> Oh my, they can do what the Zohar can do?
> 
> You seem to be following the whole DBZ arguments you hate so much. Tell me what G has done.



What, perfectly valid powerscaling isn't okay now? I'm not the guy that denies Goku can destroy a planet just because he hasn't personally done it.



> So it destroyed a multiverse...
> 
> Yet again, not at all seeing how UN is beating Fei. But I'll tell you before you go on your usual antics: _I need context._
> 
> If you want me to think multiverse power is enough to beat Fei, you're going to have to explain better than "read his post" from a respect thread (respect threads don't actually help all that much really)



It's not a respect thread, it's an info thread on ranking the various cosmic beings and powers in Marvel. What more do you need than what was shown?



The multiverse has infinite universes



And even greater dimensions

This is Multi-Eternity, the embodiment of the multiverse:



Here you can see Multi-Eternity being shattered by the UN:





> You mean the same punches that completely brought destruction to an entire dimension... as a side effect?



Yep. Odin and his ilk can do that kind of thing. Not shit to Big G.



> Best I hear G doing is galaxy. He's not competing with that, if that's all he got.



You're woefully misinformed then. FP Galactus is on par with Eternity and Death, and the UN is a multiverse buster/recreator. Most of the time when Galactus appears in comics he's weakened by hunger, because if he was at full power he would be way too strong for all but the greatest cosmic beings to challenge. In the Black Celestial Saga he was weakened and devouring the universe, Annihilus was planning to use him as a bomb to destroy 2 universes (again this was when he was stripped of almost all of his power), he fought Mephisto and devastated the universe from another dimension and won by starting to eat Mephisto's own dimension, and I already mentioned the incident with Hyperstorm.

Galactus at the full potential of his power has never been seen, or if he was, only see in the midst of fights with much stronger beings (such as Thanos with the IG, HOTU, Living Tribunal, etc.)

Again, FP Galactus is at least 2 tiers above Cube Beings who can warp, create, and destroy universes easily and have literally infinite power - higher cosmic beings just have higher levels of infinity.

Let Doctor Strange explain:


----------



## Keollyn (Mar 21, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> What, perfectly valid powerscaling isn't okay now? I'm not the guy that denies Goku can destroy a planet just because he hasn't personally done it.



So when tobiah was using it, what made you forget this very fact?



> It's not a respect thread, it's an info thread on ranking the various cosmic beings and powers in Marvel. What more do you need than what was shown?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Context. That's all I'm asking. If you consistently ask for it, I can too.

And greater than infinity? I know Marvel/DC have issues with sense of scale, but damn.

Anyways, sounds like nothing above the Wave Existence scope. If the universe in which the Zohar manipulates is within the range of infinity, the Path of Sephirot and the Wave Dimension are higher than that--easily.

But UN is likely G's only chance here. And again, it's not even a match decider.



> Yep. Odin and his ilk can do that kind of thing. Not shit to Big G.



One that would easily be multiversal in scope? Fuck, that's impressive Odin 



> You're woefully misinformed then. FP Galactus is on par with Eternity and Death, and the UN is a multiverse buster/recreator. Most of the time when Galactus appears in comics he's weakened by hunger, because if he was at full power he would be way too strong for all but the greatest cosmic beings to challenge. In the Black Celestial Saga he was weakened and devouring the universe, Annihilus was planning to use him as a bomb to destroy 2 universes (again this was when he was stripped of almost all of his power), he fought Mephisto and devastated the universe from another dimension and won by starting to eat Mephisto's own dimension, and I already mentioned the incident with Hyperstorm.



What with Hyperstorm? I didn't actually read the whole thread. I thought it was funny being locked and just wanted to grab a simple post to use that image.




> Galactus at the full potential of his power has never been seen, or if he was, only see in the midst of fights with much stronger beings (such as Thanos with the IG, HOTU, Living Tribunal, etc.)



Neither has Fei. Fei has never went all out and his potential is said to increase the more his mental state grows. All he did in the game was casual.

Fei fought no one on his level and the ones he fought were easily mulitversal.



> Again, FP Galactus is at least 2 tiers above Cube Beings who can warp, create, and destroy universes easily and have literally infinite power - higher cosmic beings just have higher levels of infinity.



Again, Zohar level. Zohar is a child in the Xenogears universe.



> Let Doctor Strange explain:



Will never get where they were going with this.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Mar 21, 2011)

A full power Galactus is still weaker then Eternity and Infinity. Sometimes I think people powerscale him just to try and hype him up even more. Yes, we can gauge what a full power galactus can do based on him being well fed or not. 
If he doesn't have good enough feats then thats that. Stuff like oh well so and so in multiversal and Galactus stalemated such and such for a while is weak.

I don't know about Odin having universal feats since IIRC his best feat without the destroyer armor is destroying a galaxy.


----------



## Fang (Mar 21, 2011)

Odin can warp and effect the universe on a lower scale, and he's a top tier Skyfather. He exists on multiple levels of reality across the main 616 universe and into the Marvel canonical multiverse(s), if I get it right.

His fight with Seth was being felt across multiple dimensions, destroying galaxies, and different planes of reality as well.

He isn't shit to Galactus. Hell he was barely even noticed by the Living Tribunal when he died before the events of Ragnarok.  The Celestials fighting Pre-Retcon Beyonder were attacking, feinting and attempting to counter the Beyonder on billions of different levels, they aren't shit to Galactus (the Celestials that is).


----------



## Keollyn (Mar 21, 2011)

Seth. I really like that name.


----------



## Big Bοss (Mar 21, 2011)

Oh good, now let me read the thread and start.

Tear us a new one lol.


----------



## Keollyn (Mar 21, 2011)

Prepare yourself tobiah. Tearing is being commenced!


----------



## Matta Clatta (Mar 21, 2011)

Odin is not a top tier skyfather hes mid tier and I don't think anyone could make a descent argument about it one way or the other with what wev'e seen from King Thor.

He exists on multiple planes in asgard which accounts for like 9 different realms(including earth) and in general thats just his omnipresence.

No Galactus is not above Celestials he would get worked just like Odin did if confronted by all of them. His best feat is eating a sleeping celestial but somehow hes above all of them now?please


----------



## Endless Mike (Mar 21, 2011)

Keollyn said:


> So when tobiah was using it, what made you forget this very fact?



What are you talking about?



> Context. That's all I'm asking. If you consistently ask for it, I can too.



Abraxas was threatening the multiverse. The only way to beat him was with the UN. The UN destroyed and recreated the multiverse minus Abraxas. Satisfied?



> And greater than infinity? I know Marvel/DC have issues with sense of scale, but damn.



It's based on real life concepts, as shown in the scans. Don't whine about stuff being unrealistic just because it's greater than what your side has.



> Anyways, sounds like nothing above the Wave Existence scope. If the universe in which the Zohar manipulates is within the range of infinity, the Path of Sephirot and the Wave Dimension are higher than that--easily.



I'm not seeing any evidence that the Wave Existence is greater than Multi-Eternity, and Multi-Eternity is the UN's bitch.



> But UN is likely G's only chance here. And again, it's not even a match decider.



You're forgetting his ability to absorb dimensions and energy.



> One that would easily be multiversal in scope? Fuck, that's impressive Odin



What do you mean, "multiversal in scope"? All you said was destroying a dimension. Odin affected the multiverse when fighting Set. Molecule Man and Beyonder (Post-Retcon) were causing damage to the multiverse when they were fighting. All of them are way below Galactus.



> What with Hyperstorm? I didn't actually read the whole thread. I thought it was funny being locked and just wanted to grab a simple post to use that image.





			
				Me said:
			
		

> You know Galactus fought a guy called Hyperstorm who had an infinite source of energy that he could draw on do do anything he wanted. Galactus fed on him like one of Willy Wonka's neverending gobstoppers.
> 
> Hell, it was implied that Galactus even finished consuming him, in other words the guy could draw on infinite power from hyperspace (which transcends any single universe, making it multiversal), and Galactus still sucked him dry and spit him out.





> Neither has Fei. Fei has never went all out and his potential is said to increase the more his mentality grows. All he did in the game was casual.



All I'm saying is stop downplaying Galactus based on showings when he was weakened.



> Fei fought no one on his level and the ones he fought were easily mulitversal.



Feats please



> Again, Zohar level. Zohar is a child in the Xenogears universe.



So Zohar is a Cube Being? Fine. Celestials are infinitely beyond that. FP Galactus is equal to Eternity who created the Celestials.



> Will never get where they were going with this.



Different levels of infinity. It's a real concept.



Matta Clatta said:


> A full power Galactus is still weaker then Eternity and Infinity.



Wrong.

Galactus meets Eternity as an equal:

Kamehameha
Link removed
Link removed



> Sometimes I think people powerscale just to try and hype him up even more. Yes, we can gauge what a full power galactus can do based on him being well fed or not.
> If he doesn't have good enough feats then thats that.
> 
> I don't know about Odin having universal feats since IIRC his best feat without the destroyer armor is destroying a galaxy.



Odin was devastating the universe against the Infinity hand and affecting the multiverse against Set.


----------



## Endless Mike (Mar 21, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> Odin is not a top tier skyfather hes mid tier and I don't think anyone could make a descent argument about it one way or the other with what wev'e seen from King Thor.



Are you kidding? Odin is *the* top - tier Skyfather. RKT was the only one greater and that was just a temporary powerup.



> He exists on multiple planes in asgard which accounts for like 9 different realms(including earth) and in general thats just his omnipresence.



Fight with Seth says differently.



> No Galactus is not above Celestials he would get worked just like Odin did if confronted by all of them. His best feat is eating a sleeping celestial but somehow hes above all of them now?please



If he was at full power or he could just use the UN on them


----------



## Matta Clatta (Mar 21, 2011)

Mike okay, so I'm supposed to take that as them being equals? and not just them meeting each other in general as brothers.

How about we go by the fights with Thanos instead? since thats a lot more concrete


----------



## Endless Mike (Mar 21, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> Mike okay, so I'm supposed to take that as them being equals? and not just them meeting each other in general as brothers.



Seemed pretty equal to me



> How about we go by the fights with Thanos instead? since thats a lot more concrete



You mean in the Thanos miniseries? Again, that wasn't Galactus anywhere near FP. He was also being influenced by Hunger, a powerful extradimensional multiversal entity. In practically every thread you've posted in you've demonstrated yourself completely ignorant regarding all things Marvel.


----------



## Keollyn (Mar 21, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> What are you talking about?



Anytime he mentions Fei being pretty much WE outlet, you go 'oh this isn't WE vs G, it's Fei vs G'

Yeah, no.



> Abraxas was threatening the multiverse. The only way to beat him was with the UN. The UN destroyed and recreated the multiverse minus Abraxas. Satisfied?



Kind of got that from the last post, thank you.



> It's based on real life concepts, as shown in the scans. Don't whine about stuff being unrealistic just because it's greater than what your side has.



Never said it was unrealistic, nor was I whining.

Stop reflecting Mike.



> I'm not seeing any evidence that the Wave Existence is greater than Multi-Eternity, and Multi-Eternity is the UN's bitch.



You mean the infinite wave being who can just let off a drop of itself and create a universe--one that's comprised of infinite alternate universes?

What would the UN do to the WE? Tickle it?



> You're forgetting his ability to absorb dimensions and energy.



Okay, and? Never knew dimensions to fight back.



> What do you mean, "multiversal in scope"? All you said was destroying a dimension. Odin affected the multiverse when fighting Set. Molecule Man and Beyonder (Post-Retcon) were causing damage to the multiverse when they were fighting. All of them are way below Galactus.



The Path of Sephirot is above the 4th dimension. The 4th dimension is an infinite set of universes.

Besides that, it's filled with wave energy. 

This has been explained a billion times. In threads YOU participated in. Please drill this in your head one day. THis repeating gets tiring.






> All I'm saying is stop downplaying Galactus based on showings when he was weakened.



Don't remember ever downplaying G. I know him by WoM and clearly asked what he's done in this very thread.



> Feats please



I'm about to use your very thing--valid powerscaling.

Deus is the setup man.



*Spoiler*: _Deus/Zohar merge... more powerful than now?_ 



Next, the organic weapon system, Deus, was designed to utilize the maximum extent of Zohar's output and although the attack power of its attack units is formidable, *the desired 100% performance throughput* can only be achieved through linkage with Zohar.



3rd paragraph under 'The engine making up..."




Deus had 100% throughput from a source that has infinite energy, can manipulate infinite universes and already itself tanked the big bang.

Deus is NOT on anyone's level after Fei entered the Path of Sephirot. That's Uroboros and Wave Karellen. 

Wave Karellen almost goes without saying, but Uroboros--the one Fei fought directly--was created by Karellen with wave energy. Uroboros is so far above Deus, Deus would probably fall apart in the same room as Uroboros.

These same characters weren't even jack to 'not at full potential' Fei.




> So Zohar is a Cube Being? Fine. Celestials are infinitely beyond that. FP Galactus is equal to Eternity who created the Celestials.



I'm glad I said Zohar is a child in the Xenogears universe.



> Different levels of infinity. It's a real concept.



I'm pretty sure it is. That's why I'm glad I don't have any interest in it in real life.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Mar 21, 2011)

No I'm not talking about the Thanos miniseries but I'm pretty sure your just trying to move the goal posts about claiming Galactus to be above beings that hes not.

I'm talking about Thanos in the Infinity Guantlet that was fighting a well fed galactus and beat him without much trouble and then preceded  to fight the rest of the cosmic entities until he reached Eternity who put up a much better fight then Galactus. Thats obviously a testament to Eternity>>FP Galactus more then "oh they meet as brothers so they must be equalas"


----------



## Id (Mar 21, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Glad to see you guys finally stopped pussying out and reopened the thread.
> 
> Now to tear you a new one:



For what?? to build an argument on *supposition*? Galactus is *suppose* to be on par with Eternity, and Death? Galactus is *suppose* to wield multiversal power?

Let me cut through the meat of your argument, and clearly point out that he isn?t. At best Galactus is a Universal Force, and his only reliance to have *any* chance of surviving against Fie is to use Ultimate Nullifier.

I wouldn?t put to much stock on a one time retcon, that was used once, and entirely ignored for 10 years growing. Normally plot devices such as these, are dismissed as PIS, if not fall under standard equipment rule out. But hey I will humor the thought. 



Endless Mike said:


> The UN instantly destroyed and recreated the 616 Multiverse minus Abraxas. Abraxas was causing universes to collapse just by approaching them. The multiverse has infinite universes.


The energies of the UN have been manipulated against its wielder by Infinity Gauntlet. There is absolutely no reason to dictate that the Zohar Modifer can fail to replicate the same, given that it was built to manipulate energy, as vast as the Multiverse, and do so ?perfectly?.


----------



## Lucifeller (Mar 21, 2011)

> I'm talking about Thanos in the Infinity Guantlet that was fighting a well fed galactus and beat him without much trouble and then preceded to fight the rest of the cosmic entities until he reached Eternity who put up a much better fight then Galactus. Thats obviously a testament to Eternity>>FP Galactus more then "oh they meet as brothers so they must be equalas"



Thanos was also wielding the Infinity Gauntlet at the time, which is the Marvel equivalent of a royal flush against pretty much anything short of the Living Tribunal (the Heart of the Universe is the equivalent of throwing down your cards, whipping out a twelve gauge and blowing the other guy's brains out), so losing to him isn't exactly a big thing. And he used a CHUNK of the IG's power to make the fight short because he really didn't want to prolong it any more than necessary.

Also, part of why the IG didn't work as well on Eternity is that one of the gems' power comes from Eternity himself, so it's tantamount to asking him 'hey, help me kill you', which is obviously a rather terrible idea. :ho

Thanos functionally had only 4 gems for that fight, and that IS a big deal.


----------



## Endless Mike (Mar 21, 2011)

Keollyn said:


> Anytime he mentions Fei being pretty much WE outlet, you go 'oh this isn't WE vs G, it's Fei vs G'
> 
> Yeah, no.



Then provide evidence that Fei can do everything the WE can do.



> Kind of got that from the last post, thank you.



Then what did you mean when you asked for context?



> Never said it was unrealistic, nor was I whining.
> 
> Stop reflecting Mike.



You said



			
				You said:
			
		

> And greater than infinity? I know Marvel/DC have issues with sense of scale, but damn.



This clearly implies you think it is unrealistic or somehow wrong.



> You mean the infinite wave being who can just let off a drop of itself and create a universe--one that's comprised of infinite alternate universes?
> 
> What would the UN do to the WE? Tickle it?



Wipe it out of existence.

Again, Multi-Eternity is composed of infinite universes, or even beyond infinite, as well as multiple infinities of realms, dimensions, and other planes of existence. Creating universes is easy for Cube Beings which are several levels of infinity below M-E. The UN instantly destroyed and recreated M-E. What part of this are you not getting?



> Okay, and? Never knew dimensions to fight back.



They can if they are controlled by beings who can warp them at will like Mephisto and Hyperstorm.



> The Path of Sephirot is above the 4th dimension. The 4th dimension is an infinite set of universes.
> 
> Besides that, it's filled with wave energy.
> 
> This has been explained a billion times. In threads YOU participated in. Please drill this in your head one day. THis repeating gets tiring.



Excuse me if you're just throwing vague terms around that don't mean anything to me. When you say "above", what do you mean? You have to go through one to get to another? It's positioned in a certain way? Or more expansive? What? And how do the 4th dimension and Path of Sephirot relate to Fei and the WE?



> Don't remember ever downplaying G. I know him by WoM and clearly asked what he's done in this very thread.



You also said



			
				You said:
			
		

> Best I hear G doing is galaxy. He's not competing with that, if that's all he got.



Which is blatantly false



> I'm about to use your very thing--valid powerscaling.



Go ahead.



> Deus is the setup man.
> 
> Next, the organic weapon system, Deus, was designed to utilize the maximum extent of Zohar's output and although the attack power of its attack units is formidable, *the desired 100% performance throughput* can only be achieved through linkage with Zohar.
> 
> ...



It says "active" energy. Please explain the meaning of this qualifier.

Furthermore, would you care to show feats that Deus actually performed? I can show you Cube Beings doing universe+ level feats, instead of just statements that they can.



> Deus is NOT on anyone's level after Fei entered the Path of Sephirot. That's Uroboros and Wave Karellen.
> 
> Wave Karellen almost goes without saying, but Uroboros--the one Fei fought directly--was created by Karellen with wave energy. Uroboros is so far above Deus, Deus would probably fall apart in the same room as Uroboros.
> 
> These same characters weren't even jack to 'not at full potential' Fei.



Based on the information given it seems like it is a simple weapon system that operates in terms of offense and defense - nothing complicated like the reality warping a Cube Being can do. It's not surprising that it's weaker than beings with better control.



> I'm glad I said Zohar is a child in the Xenogears universe.



And Cube Beings are dime - a - dozen chumps in the Marvel cosmic heirarchy. What's your point?



> I'm pretty sure it is. That's why I'm glad I don't have any interest in it in real life.



Yet you're implying it in your own arguments....


----------



## Matta Clatta (Mar 21, 2011)

Ahhh so the Ultimate Nullifier isn't stronger then the Infinity Gauntlet? Oh thats right! Its from that fight between Quasar and Magus right.


----------



## Endless Mike (Mar 21, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> No I'm not talking about the Thanos miniseries but I'm pretty sure your just trying to move the goal posts about claiming Galactus to be above beings that hes not.
> 
> I'm talking about Thanos in the Infinity Guantlet that was fighting a well fed galactus and beat him without much trouble and then preceded  to fight the rest of the cosmic entities until he reached Eternity who put up a much better fight then Galactus. Thats obviously a testament to Eternity>>FP Galactus more then "oh they meet as brothers so they must be equalas"



First of all, it wasn't confirmed that Galactus was at full power then. Second of all, when Thanos fought Eternity we saw Thanos diving at him, then in the next panel or so Thanos had usurped his power. Not exactly a tough fight.



X-Man said:


> For what?? to build an argument on *supposition*? Galactus is *suppose* to be on par with Eternity, and Death? Galactus is *suppose* to wield multiversal power?
> 
> Let me cut through the meat of your argument, and clearly point out that he isn?t. At best Galactus is a Universal Force, and his only reliance to have *any* chance of surviving against Fie is to use Ultimate Nullifier.



Explain why Celestials are infinitely beyond Cube Beings and Galactus is at least on par with Celestials then.



> I wouldn?t put to much stock on a one time retcon, that was used once, and entirely ignored for 10 years growing. Normally plot devices such as these, are dismissed as PIS, if not fall under standard equipment rule out. But hey I will humor the thought.



Hasn't been retconned or contradicted yet.



> The energies of the UN have been manipulated against its wielder by Infinity Gauntlet. There is absolutely no reason to dictate that the Zohar Modifer can fail to replicate the same, given that it was built to manipulate energy, as vast as the Multiverse, and do so ?perfectly?.



Except the multiverse was destroyed and recreated by the UN. The IG > the multiverse. In fact, the Infinity Gems when not even joined have been a threat to multiple multiverses. Also that time the UN was used by Quasar, who has far less cosmic awareness, intelligence, and experience using it than Galactus.


----------



## Big Bοss (Mar 21, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> It's based on real life concepts, as shown in the scans. Don't whine about stuff being unrealistic just because it's greater than what your side has.



Then prove their level of infinty is greater.



> You're forgetting his ability to absorb dimensions and energy.



Which would do what?

The Zohar could absorb infinite energy too and it wasn't able to run the WE dry what makes you think Galactus can do it? and if you re going with the "greater level of infinity" then prove it.

Also for the 100th time Fei's PAS allows him to created and entire new universe where he meets the desire he wants, and does this by shifting and creating infinite universes to the point he can create one in which the outcome impossible is posible ergo he can create an universe in which he won't let Galactus take his energy.




> All I'm saying is stop downplaying Galactus based on showings when he was weakened.



The one doing that shit is you.



> Feats please





			
				Me said:
			
		

> But ok in the last fight, Fei vs Krelian (wave beign)/Uroboros two beings that used wave energy ergo had infinite energy weren't able to do nothing against Fei, what makes you think Galactus has any chance?



A wave being is what the WE is and Krelian who became one couldn't do jack shit against Fei as well as Uroboros who was completly made and powered by this energy.


----------



## Keollyn (Mar 21, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Then provide evidence that Fei can do everything the WE can do.



This is why you should never be allowed DBZ arguments. Fall into a lot of hypocrisy like that.

Fei has the power of the wave existence. This is the set up to the game. 

Fei's the last person who needs any evidence of equality to someone. Try proving G's equality to those you say, because Fei's is confuckingcrete.



> Then what did you mean when you asked for context?



I was answering your question of what I wanted. I got it, I don't need it anymore.




> You said
> 
> 
> 
> This clearly implies you think it is unrealistic or somehow wrong.



Issues could also mean comics. They do release issues, no?



























> Wipe it out of existence.



Weaker things cannot take out stronger things. Fiction fact.



> Again, Multi-Eternity is composed of infinite universes, or even beyond infinite, as well as multiple infinities of realms, dimensions, and other planes of existence. Creating universes is easy for Cube Beings which are several levels of infinity below M-E. The UN instantly destroyed and recreated M-E. What part of this are you not getting?



The same thing you're not getting. 

The point.



> They can if they are controlled by beings who can warp them at will like Mephisto and Hyperstorm.



And have they in these ifhgts with G? No point in mentioning that if not.



> Excuse me if you're just throwing vague terms around that don't mean anything to me. When you say "above", what do you mean? You have to go through one to get to another? It's positioned in a certain way? Or more expansive? What? And how do the 4th dimension and Path of Sephirot relate to Fei and the WE?



Typical Mike response.

"Show/prove it"

*Shows/proves it*

"That's just gibberish"

:giowhereatthou

Path of Sephirot is the dimension Fei fought Uroboros. The same dimension that casually got its ass handed to it while they fought.





> You also said
> 
> 
> 
> Which is blatantly false



You must not understand simple language composition, what with all the multiples of infinity filling your daily jargon.

"Best I hear"

Key. Fucking. Word.






> It says "active" energy. Please explain the meaning of this qualifier.
> 
> Furthermore, would you care to show feats that Deus actually performed? I can show you Cube Beings doing universe+ level feats, instead of just statements that they can.



No, because it's mostly his source. And if you don't accept his source, then I'm not accepting this 'valid' powerscaling.




> Based on the information given it seems like it is a simple weapon system that operates in terms of offense and defense - nothing complicated like the reality warping a Cube Being can do. It's not surprising that it's weaker than beings with better control.



Manipulating infinite universes, reshaping the universe at the point of the big bang, and aligning the course of history to the desired of its avatar is not complex?





> And Cube Beings are dime - a - dozen chumps in the Marvel cosmic heirarchy. What's your point?



The same point you're trying to make.

God Mike. Not a sharp tool.



> Yet you're implying it in your own arguments....



That I care? How?


----------



## Endless Mike (Mar 21, 2011)

Grαhf said:


> Then prove their level of infinty is greater.



I already showed my scans and evidence. Burden of proof is on you.



> Which would do what?
> 
> The Zohar could absorb infinite energy too and it wasn't able to run the WE dry what makes you think Galactus can do it? and if you re going with the "greater level of infinity" then prove it.



Again. Cube Beings can create and manipulate infinite energy. Galactus is significantly above that. Galactus fully drained Hyperstorm, who had access to infinite energy from hyperspace.



> Also for the 100th time Fei's PAS allows him to created and entire new universe where he meets the desire he wants, and does this by shifting and creating infinite universes to the point he can create one in which the outcome impossible is posible ergo he can create an universe in which he won't let Galactus take his energy.



Except Galactus can absorb universes and cross between them at will, and Cube Beings can create universes easily with any rules they want but they are below Galactus. The UN instantly destroyed and recreated the multiverse.



> The one doing that shit is you.



I'm downplaying Fei based on showings when he was weakened? Considering I don't even know much about the series and I have not quoted any specific instances of Fei doing anything, this is a blatant lie.



> A wave being is what the WE is and Krelian who became one couldn't do jack shit against Fei as well as Uroboros who was completly made and powered by this energy.



Again. Cube Beings have infinite energy. They are multiple tiers below Galactus. Kubik and Kosmos could not do anything to a Celestial. Galactus can.


----------



## Amuro (Mar 21, 2011)

this thread


----------



## Kurou (Mar 21, 2011)

Inb4Hiro deletes your post.


----------



## Vault (Mar 21, 2011)

> In practically every thread you've posted in you've demonstrated yourself completely ignorant regarding all things Marvel.



Tell me about it  Comics in general.


----------



## Big Bοss (Mar 21, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> I already showed my scans and evidence. Burden of proof is on you.



It works the other way around Mike, you say they level of infinity is greater then *you* have to prove it.



> Again. Cube Beings can create and manipulate infinite energy. Galactus is significantly above that. Galactus fully drained Hyperstorm, who had access to infinite energy from hyperspace.



And the Zohar that can draw on infinite energy too couldn't dry the WE so I guess this proves the level of infinity of the WE is greater.




> Except Galactus can absorb universes and cross between them at will, and Cube Beings can create universes easily with any rules they want but they are below Galactus. The UN instantly destroyed and recreated the multiverse.



Already cover this:



			
				Me said:
			
		

> Plus lambda, Anti and I already explain this, the WE is an infinite source of energy that created and controls time and space, and can create universes by just existing, for example Fei needs the power to defeat Galactus then the WE would give him that power aka need speed? got it, need durability? go it, need power? got it etc, you know being and infinite source and all the jazz I explained above.
> 
> Now apart from this is the fact that the WE can shift and manipulate trought infinite universes instantly, meaning that while Fei is fighting the WE is rewriting the future to the one in which Fei wins and this is the part in which even if the probability of that outcome was originally zero (outcome that doesn't exist) comes into play, this shit isn't getting lucky, this is PAS creating the universe/reality/future in which Fei beats his enemy.
> 
> That is why lambda said that the UN won't work because the WE has the power to negate it, now tell me how many reality warpers can do that? I bet LONGSHOT can do it amiright?





> I'm downplaying Fei based on showings when he was weakened? Considering I don't even know much about the series and I have not quoted any specific instances of Fei doing anything, this is a blatant lie.



You are saying we are wanking disregarding every feat and info we provide, so I guess the one lying is you.


----------



## Keollyn (Mar 21, 2011)

An Hiro'in post


----------



## lambda (Mar 21, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> I already showed my scans and evidence. Burden of proof is on you.


Your best evidence provide destruction/recreation of a multiverse. A being far below Fei can do the same.





> Again. Cube Beings can create and manipulate infinite energy. Galactus is significantly above that. Galactus fully drained Hyperstorm, who had access to infinite energy from hyperspace.


Again. Zohar can do the same. Fei is significantly above that. And again Fei can rewrite reality to avoid any effects he doesn't want. By instantly spawning a completely new universe if necessary.





> Except Galactus can absorb universes and cross between them at will, and Cube Beings can create universes easily with any rules they want but they are below Galactus. The UN instantly destroyed and recreated the multiverse.


Again. That's nothing special to Fei.





> I'm downplaying Fei based on showings when he was weakened? Considering I don't even know much about the series and I have not quoted any specific instances of Fei doing anything, this is a blatant lie.


You endlessly repeating the same thing when it's been said again and again that they're not enough qualify as downplaying.





> Again. Cube Beings have infinite energy. They are multiple tiers below Galactus. Kubik and Kosmos could not do anything to a Celestial. Galactus can.


 Again. Infinite energy is small time to Fei too.  As for your nebulous tiers... so what?


----------



## Endless Mike (Mar 21, 2011)

Keollyn said:


> This is why you should never be allowed DBZ arguments. Fall into a lot of hypocrisy like that.
> 
> Fei has the power of the wave existence. This is the set up to the game.



Okay.... he "has the power of it". That could mean a lot of things. Juggernaut "has the power of" Cyttorak but that doesn't make him as powerful as Cyttorak or able to do anything Cyttorak can do. Prove Fei can do everything the WE can do. 



> Issues could also mean comics. They do release issues, no?



Attempting to deflect my point with humor means you can't answer it.



> Weaker things cannot take out stronger things. Fiction fact.



Um, no.... in fact weaker things defeating stronger things happens in fiction all the time. And what makes you think the UN is weaker than the WE? It already has a feat of instantly destroying and recreating a being that is at least on par with it.



> The same thing you're not getting.
> 
> The point.



In other words, you have no way to counter this and you're just obfuscating. Concession Accepted.



> And have they in these ifhgts with G? No point in mentioning that if not.



Yes. They have. I mentioned this already.



> Typical Mike response.
> 
> "Show/prove it"
> 
> ...



You didn't "show" or "prove" anything. You referenced so undefined terms and I asked for further clarification.



> Path of Sephirot



Again, explain what this is and how it relates to the 4th dimension, Fei, and the WE.

I've explained all of the terms, beings, and phenomena on my side, it's only fair that you do the same.



> You must not understand simple language composition, what with all the multiples of infinity filling your daily jargon.
> 
> "Best I heard"
> 
> Key. Fucking. Word.



Yeah, and I had cited much better stuff earlier in this very thread. 



> No, because it's mostly his source. And if you don't accept his source, then I'm not accepting this 'valid' powerscaling.



Difference is, I can show feats and you can't.



Post-Retcon Molecule Man and Beyonder damage the multiverse in their fight.









Post-Retcon Beyonder has his own universe he can warp to his will, Kubik confronts him and shrinks the universe into the palm of his hand to crush it.

Show feats from Deus matching these. Also explain what "active" energy means, you failed to do this.



> Manipulating infinite universes, reshaping the universe to the point of the big bang, and aligning the course of history to the desired of its avatar is not complex?



Does Deus do that?



> The same point you're trying to make.
> 
> God Mike. Not a sharp tool.



You don't have a point. You can't powerscale if you don't have feats to start it off.



> That I care? How?



No, you're implying multiple levels of infinity.


----------



## Id (Mar 21, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Explain why Celestials are infinitely beyond Cube Beings and Galactus is at least on par with Celestials then.


You mean like that lone cosmic cube, that held the celestial race in check?

If, and when Galactus can muster up Multiversal power, I will acknowledge him as so. Until then, you really don’t have much to present that he is anything but a Universal Force.  



> Hasn't been retconned or contradicted yet.


That is a moot point, it was brought up *one time*, in its entire carrier…nothing but the writer pulling  out plot device of his ass to preserve the plot. Since then no reference has been made, that ties in Galactus with the UN. 

Even if you turn the blind eye, and ignore this. You can not argue that the UN does not come as standard equipment. Last I checked this was Galactus vs Fei. Not Galactus w/UN vs Fie. 



> Except the multiverse was destroyed and recreated by the UN. The IG > the multiverse. In fact, the Infinity Gems when not even joined have been a threat to multiple multiverses. Also that time the UN was used by Quasar, who has far less cosmic awareness, intelligence, and experience using it than Galactus..



When has Galactus ever used the UN? The answer is NEEEEVAAAA!

You have to come to terms, that Fie has two powerful abilities. The creation ability, thanks to the WE. And the ability to manipulate energy thanks to the Zohar Modifier. It all ties in by willing it through a processes called Phenomena Phase Shifting.


----------



## Keollyn (Mar 21, 2011)

A quick post. I can post feats and have in the past.

But again, I said it's his source that holds most feats for Deus, not Deus. You seem to have a clear issue with understanding a majority of what I post.

Anyway, I'm hungry. I'll respond later.


----------



## Endless Mike (Mar 21, 2011)

Grαhf said:


> It works the other way around Mike, you say they level of infinity is greater then *you* have to prove it.



Wrong. I already posted scans showing the extensiveness and power of Multi-Eternity and the UN. I've presented my evidence. You have to now present yours, else mine wins by default. This is basic debating.



> And the Zohar that can draw on infinite energy too couldn't dry the WE so I guess this proves the level of infinity of the WE is greater.



That's ass - backwards. Galactus drained Hyperstorm who could draw on infinite energy. That makes Galactus superior. Did you even read what I said?

Infinite energy is not a big deal when it comes to Marvel cosmics. Cube Beings who are some of the lowest tiers have it.



> Already cover this:



"rewriting the future" doesn't mean shit to a being beyond the limits of time and space. In order to block the UN you would need more power than Multi - Eternity, which is many many levels above infinity.



> You are saying we are wanking disregarding every feat and info we provide, so I guess the one lying is you.



I have not disregarded anything, I have simply pointed out that it is unimpressive compared to Galactus and the UN. Futhermore, you directly claimed that I was downplaying by using weakened instances of Fei, which I did not do. Therefore you lied.



lambda said:


> Your best evidence provide destruction/recreation of a multiverse. A being far below Fei can do the same.



Show the feat then and prove it was comparable to Multi-Eternity.



> Again. Zohar can do the same. Fei is significantly above that. And again Fei can rewrite reality to avoid any effects he doesn't want. By instantly spawning a completely new universe if necessary.



Which Galactus would just eat or nullify. Spawning new universes to change events will not help you against something that can wipe out and rewrite infinite+ universes instantly.



> Again. That's nothing special to Fei.



Prove it.



> You endlessly repeating the same thing when it's been said again and again that they're not enough qualify as downplaying.



You keep saying "not enough" but you have not provided any evidence to back up your side. In this entire thread I have posted many scans and links, but all your side has posted were those little comics that explains how he can alter causality and that info thing on Deus.



> Again. Infinite energy is small time to Fei too.  As for your nebulous tiers... so what?



Each tier is infinitely beyond the one before it.


----------



## Vault (Mar 21, 2011)

Curious question, is this Fei dude omniversal?


----------



## Endless Mike (Mar 21, 2011)

X-Man said:


> You mean like that lone cosmic cube, that held the celestial race in check?



Are you talking about the Guardians of the Galaxy? That was a result of the universe collapsing due to the same force that eventually led to the Fault and the invasion of the Cancerverse which was a multiversal threat. Obviously the Celestials were weakened and had expended most of their power in that future.



> If, and when Galactus can muster up Multiversal power, I will acknowledge him as so. Until then, you really don?t have much to present that he is anything but a Universal Force.



Cube Beings can create and destroy universes. Kubik and Kosmos admit they are nothing to a Celestial. Galactus is comparable to Celestials and at full power equal to Eternity who created the Celestials by meditating.

Also the UN is a multiverse buster and it is part of Galactus' being.



> That is a moot point, it was brought up *one time*, in its entire carrier?nothing but the writer pulling  out plot device of his ass to preserve the plot. Since then no reference has been made, that ties in Galactus with the UN.



And nothing to contradict it either. It stands.



> Even if you turn the blind eye, and ignore this. You can not argue that the UN does not come as standard equipment. Last I checked this was Galactus vs Fei. Not Galactus w/UN vs Fie.



"As much a part of me as my own heart" was the quote. If you want to ban it that's just an admission that Fei can't win without nerfing Galactus.



> When has Galactus ever used the UN? The answer is NEEEEVAAAA!



Blatant lie. He used it in the Black Celestial saga and he used it against Korvac.





> You have to come to terms, that Fie has two powerful abilities. The creation ability, thanks to the WE.



Again, something Cube Beings can do.



> And the ability to manipulate energy thanks to the Zohar Modifier. It all ties in by willing it through a processes called Phenomena Phase Shifting.



Not seeing how that is any better than what Kubik did to Beyonder.



Keollyn said:


> A quick post. I can post feats and have in the past.
> 
> But again, I said it's his source that holds most feats for Deus, not Deus. You seem to have a clear issue with understanding a majority of what I post.



And is the source above Deus?


----------



## Superbot400 (Mar 21, 2011)

Galactus uses the UN aganist Korvac, who isn't really threat to him. 


Meanwhile TVA bitches about the damage it does to the Marvel's timelines despite the fact that they govern.........everything.


----------



## Id (Mar 21, 2011)

> Cube Beings can create and destroy universes. Kubik and Kosmos admit they are nothing to a Celestial. Galactus is comparable to Celestials and at full power equal to Eternity who created the Celestials by meditating.
> 
> Also the UN is a multiverse buster and it is part of Galactus' being.


A huh you?ve had this dance, with me, and others. And they only reciting song is how Galactus is suppose to be this Multiversal Force we?ve yet to see, relying solely on the power of the UN. 

The UN expels energy to nullify its foe. Mike by know you should have a clear understanding that your pitting it against someone who can manipulate energy ?perfectly?, who?s ability is not bounded by universal laws. 

Fie?s power is outside the grid of the Cosmos. The UN, and for that matter Galactus sadly isn?t.  


Endless Mike said:


> And nothing to contradict it either. It stands.
> 
> 
> 
> "As much a part of me as my own heart" was the quote. If you want to ban it that's just an admission that Fei can't win without nerfing Galactus.


Ban it? So you can cry about it? Fuck no, I would hate for you to go Rild on us. I am just bazzeled by the necessity of relaying on the UN when your clearly shouldn?t for the reasons previously stated. 



Endless Mike said:


> Blatant lie. He used it in the Black Celestial saga and he used it against Korvac.



LIES!
That?s no UN, that?s the effect of his hunger raising exponentially when the Celestials modified Galactus.


----------



## Endless Mike (Mar 21, 2011)

X-Man said:


> A huh you?ve had this dance, with me, and others. And they only reciting song is how Galactus is suppose to be this Multiversal Force we?ve yet to see, relying solely on the power of the UN.



No, he is multiversal without it. 



> The UN expels energy to nullify its foe. Mike by know you should have a clear understanding that your pitting it against someone who can manipulate energy ?perfectly?, who?s ability is not bounded by universal laws.



Wrong. It doesn't "expel" anything, it erases, it can even erase concepts like Death.



> Fie?s power is outside the grid of the Cosmos. The UN, and for that matter Galactus sadly isn?t.



Prove it.



> Ban it? So you can cry about it? Fuck no, I would hate for you to go Rild on us. I am just bazzeled by the necessity of relaying on the UN when your clearly shouldn?t for the reasons previously stated.



If you think it won't help Galactus win, why are you even arguing about it?



> LIES!
> That?s no UN, that?s the effect of his hunger raising exponentially when the Celestials modified Galactus.



Wrong. In the previous page the UN is dropped into his hand. Granted, I don't have the scan (I just spent about 20 minutes trying to find it), but if you read the comic that is what happened.


----------



## Bender (Mar 21, 2011)

Yawwwn....  That was a good nap. 

Tell me who's winning the argument so far in this thread?


----------



## OS (Mar 21, 2011)

This is the most discussed battledome thread since I joined. Is this another American comic vs Japanese manga or an all American one?


----------



## Endless Mike (Mar 21, 2011)

ORIGINALxSIN said:


> This is the most discussed battledome thread since I joined. Is this another American comic vs Japanese manga or an all American one?



It's American comics vs. Japanese video games


----------



## Id (Mar 21, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> No, he is multiversal without it.


I am sure he is, in some distant future. Just not right now. 



Endless Mike said:


> No, he is multiversal without it.
> 
> 
> Wrong. It doesn't "expel" anything, it erases, it can even erase concepts like Death.



Of course it doesn?t. Its not like we don?t see anything to indicate its not energy being shot from the device. 


Endless Mike said:


> Prove it.



It?s been proven a few pages back, by Grahf posting how PAS applies its effect outside of time/space. 


Endless Mike said:


> If you think it won't help Galactus win, why are you even arguing about it?



Its an OBD thing to argue details. 



Endless Mike said:


> Wrong. In the previous page the UN is dropped into his hand. Granted, I don't have the scan (I just spent about 20 minutes trying to find it), but if you read the comic that is what happened.


I swear, I read Mr. Master spewing some bullshit about that being his hunger-consumption in effect...directly from the respect thread, and vs topics. 

Regardless, the scope of Phenomena Phase Shifting extends beyond manipulating Three-dimensional space. Fie will turn the UN energies against Galactus if he so desires it.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 21, 2011)

Bender said:


> Yawwwn....  That was a good nap.
> 
> Tell me who's winning the argument so far in this thread?



Seems like the argument right now is which multiversal being is more multiversal.


----------



## Weather (Mar 21, 2011)

Arguing... ON A MULTIVERSAL SCALE


----------



## OS (Mar 21, 2011)

Weather said:


> Arguing... ON A MULTIVERSAL SCALE



Oh god these american characters vs Japanese characters are always big. Remember Superman vs Goku?


----------



## Endless Mike (Mar 21, 2011)

X-Man said:


> I am sure he is, in some distant future. Just not right now.



At full power he is 



> Of course it doesn’t. Its not like we don’t see anything to indicate its not energy being shot from the device.



Why did you quote me twice?

And there is no "energy being shot from the device", it is usually portrayed as an expanding white sphere of nullification. The only time I recall it being shown as an attack being fired from it was when it was used against Korvac but the narration said that was some kind of tracking function which was used before the actual nullification. Needless to say, your personal interpretation is not going to overrule how the weapon is described and shown to work.



> It’s been proven a few pages back, by Grahf posting how PAS applies its effect outside of time/space.



Outside of time/space? Great, as if that means anything when much lesser beings than Galactus can transcend time and space.



> I swear, I read Mr. Master spewing some bullshit about that being his hunger-consumption in effect...directly from the respect thread, and vs topics.



He was wrong then. In the Black Celestial saga Galactus was consuming a universe but ended up using the UN to nullify it before it could spread to the multiverse.



> Regardless, the scope of Phenomena Phase Shifting extends beyond manipulating Three-dimensional space. Fie will turn the UN energies against Galactus if he so desires it.



Why are you acting like Galactus is limited to 3 - dimensional space? I posted a scan earlier that said he casually influenced hundreds of dimensions. In fact, Reed said he had no dimensions, "no boundaries at all". Galactus is not a 3d being, he is way beyond that. Furthermore, it took the IG to reverse the UN, and that was when it was wielded by Quasar. You ignored my point about Galactus having much more awareness, intelligence, and experience with it than Quasar.

If it was able to instantly destroy and recreate Multi-Eternity and kill Abraxas, what makes you think Fei can do any better?


----------



## Id (Mar 22, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> And there is no "energy being shot from the device", it is usually portrayed as an expanding white sphere of nullification. The only time I recall it being shown as an attack being fired from it was when it was used against Korvac but the narration said that was some kind of tracking function which was used before the actual nullification. Needless to say, your personal interpretation is not going to overrule how the weapon is described and shown to work.
> 
> Furthermore, it took the IG to reverse the UN, and that was when it was wielded by Quasar. You ignored my point about Galactus having much more awareness, intelligence, and experience with it than Quasar.



Look even if my interpretation of calling it energy be damned,  lets reference it as Nullification Phenomena (N.P.), for lack of better wording & argument. This N. P. was still manipulated, by I.G. 

What your failing to grasp, is while the wilder may vary, but the N.P. effect remains constant. The power of a Multiversal reality warper in Magnus w/I.G. thwarted the Nullification effect. Why would a rival with the same power, and tier fare any different? 



Endless Mike said:


> Why are you acting like Galactus is limited to 3 - dimensional space? I posted a scan earlier that said he casually influenced hundreds of dimensions. In fact, Reed said he had no dimensions, "no boundaries at all". Galactus is not a 3d being, he is way beyond that.
> If it was able to instantly destroy and recreate Multi-Eternity and kill Abraxas, what makes you think Fei can do any better?


The Zohar Modifier has imprisoned higher level beings without dimension, and boundaries. 

When scientist made contact with the Zohar, they desired the ultimate energy source to fuel their pet project System Deus. The Zohar responded by reaching out beyond the third dimensions, seeking a higher power, pulling it down, and entrapping the Multiversal being known as Harr, creator of the multiverse. 

That is no hype, that is stated both in the book, and the game. 

This is where my argument that if Fie so much desire it, he could reach out an entrap Galactus. What makes it superior to Galactus with the UN, is its ability to manipulate energy perfectly at a Multiversal Scale. But it isn’t restricted to just manipulating, it can create it freely by mere thought. 

That adds much more diversity, than merely a nullifying effect, and one ambiguous showing of recreating.


----------



## Id (Mar 22, 2011)

Before I step out, here are some scans not so well known. It provides some nice pieces of information, you can find the entire book translated in the Diablo Corp link (check sig), first page - first post. 


Destiny Fulfilled
Destiny Fulfilled
Destiny Fulfilled


----------



## Matta Clatta (Mar 22, 2011)

The IG is multiversal too but suddenly not on the scale of the apparent "infinite realities" Ultimate Nullifier which in the end was thwarted by Magus with the IG. Its even worse because I doubt Magus is as skilled with its use as Thanos or Adam Warlock.

So in the fight now Galactus has to summon the Ultimate Nullifier, use it, and hope that its energies don't get absorbed at which point he would wipe out all existence and assume its effects would be successful on Fei. High risk and high chance of failure.


----------



## neodragzero (Mar 22, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> The IG is multiversal too but suddenly not on the scale of the apparent "infinite realities" Ultimate Nullifier which in the end was thwarted by Magus with the IG. Its even worse because I doubt Magus is as skilled with its use as Thanos or Adam Warlock.



I love how you completely avoided mentioning who exactly was attempting to use the Ultimate Nullifier. I didn't know that Quasar using the IG was suddenly the same as Galactus using the IG.


> So in the fight now Galactus has to summon the Ultimate Nullifier, use it, and hope that its energies don't get absorbed at which point he would wipe out all existence and assume its effects would be successful on Fei. High risk and high chance of failure.



Not at all. Then again, I'm not surprised by your "opinion" much anymore.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Mar 22, 2011)

neodragzero said:


> I love how you completely avoided mentioning who exactly was attempting to use the Ultimate Nullifier. I didn't know that Quasar using the IG was suddenly the same as Galactus using the IG.


I think you got mixed up there for a bit
And theres absolutely nothing to support what your saying so.........yeah

Does Galactus' one time use of the Ultimate Nullifier in that way suggest that no one else can use it that way? Did the story in question state that only Galactus was capable of doing this? Is the Ultimate Nullifier less of a weapon in anyone else's hands?





neodragzero said:


> Not at all. Then again, I'm not surprised by your "opinion" much anymore.



pot meet kettle


----------



## neodragzero (Mar 22, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> I think you got mixed up there for a bit
> And theres absolutely nothing to support what your saying so.........yeah






You were saying something?


> Does Galactus' one time use of the Ultimate Nullifier in that way suggest that no one else can use it that way?


Obviously yes. He's the only one to have done what he did to defeat Abraxas.


> Did the story in question state that only Galactus was capable of doing this?


No one else has done what Galactus has done with the UN. I think we call that a feat. Unless you have another scene of a weaker character using the UN to destroy something comparable to Abraxas? He also was able to make the UN appear from out of nowhere for usage and explained how it's actually as apart of him as his own heart. I don't think that's likely the case for numerous other characters.


> Is the Ultimate Nullifier less of a weapon in anyone else's hands?


Obviously yes. I thought everyone figured that out a long time ago as far as what the Ultimate Nullifier does and how it works. Maybe it's more powerful in the hands of a being above that of Galactus but I don't see anything to suggest that someone below that of Galactus could pull off what he did. Then again, that's a given when he's the only one that did what he did to get rid of Abraxas.


> pot meet kettle



I'm the pot for calling you out in either being wrong about a certain hierarchy or what happens in certain scenes? I don't remember myself being the type to suggest stuff that isn't supported by fact in any way near what you have done.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 22, 2011)

This thread is just like 

There is a very easy way to figure out how to do this.
Find out what they are doing. When two people with omnipotence step up, it isn't the factor of output that makes a difference, it is mentality.

Who has the stronger mind? The stronger soul?

All fingers point to well fed galatcus.
The power cosmic is different than reality warping, by far. It is something more akin to divinity. It isn't the ability to do anything you want, it is closer to... the concept of brahman.

Galactus can do anything because he is everything and above it. There is no reality without Galactus because he is a conceptual being, part of existence is Galactus, or moreso a spectrum of it. Within individuality of all there is, there is always a Galactus. Always.

There is not always a Fei, and when there is, they are not mature beings. Mind is also something to be aware of. Fei always has the same genteel mindset, and the same personality, and it can be broken. Just because he is the contact, doesn't mean he is the wave existence. he is hooked up to it, but it's infinity is greater than fei.

He can use Infinity to create finite results, because that is what humans think in the dimension of. Fei is still human. A messiah, yes. But messiahs are human.

Galactus is not human. He does not think solely on logic but abstractly as well. His mind is as infinite as his body, and what is shown to everyone is like an after effect. A vestige of His original singularity. But the truth of it all is that Galactus is all, he just doesn't choose to recognize it because that would create the dissolution of his ego.

Galactus is like... at hindu levels of metaphysical complexity.

I would say that the power cosmic is above the wave existence, simply because it demands all to yield to it. The limit is Galactus's own mind. He has infinite energy, but his mind is what causes him to retain hunger and ego.

Fei however is a conduit, not a concept. He is at a lower level on the spiritual spectrum since he is the aggregation of creation, not the foundation. Galactus existing on fei's plane would mean that ultimately he would be able to command any lesser creature if he so wished, due to the power cosmic. It is like psychokenesis that runs on sovereignty rather than psychic power.

Since it runs on sovereignty, but the wave existence runs on will, galactus would probably be able to override it's sentience, as well as fei's, since it comes from a different concept.

The wave existence is the power of birth, The power cosmic is the power of dominion.
The mother VS the father?


----------



## Heavenly King (Mar 22, 2011)

lmao!!! these threads make me laugh


----------



## Keollyn (Mar 22, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Okay.... he "has the power of it". That could mean a lot of things. Juggernaut "has the power of" Cyttorak but that doesn't make him as powerful as Cyttorak or able to do anything Cyttorak can do. Prove Fei can do everything the WE can do.



I get what you're implying, and yes, at one point Fei only had the power of the WE, but wasn't as powerful.

But that was the whole point of the second contact. To get his full rights. The power of the WE, the only power that could destroy the Zohar.

And he did.



> Attempting to deflect my point with humor means you can't answer it.



Attempting to not give a damn. Try it sometimes.



> Um, no.... in fact weaker things defeating stronger things happens in fiction all the time. And what makes you think the UN is weaker than the WE? It already has a feat of instantly destroying and recreating a being that is at least on par with it.



Yeah, we call those plot no jutsu.

Because the UN destroyed nothing that was WE level. I've explained what the WE is, you're comparing Mutli-Eternity to it because they sound the same. Sound the same, doesn't make them the same.



> In other words, you have no way to counter this and you're just obfuscating. Concession Accepted.



Sounds like this "I'm winning" again. Sure Mike, whatever you say.



> Yes. They have. I mentioned this already.



No, in fact you didn't.



> You didn't "show" or "prove" anything. You referenced so undefined terms and I asked for further clarification.



No, I did. You just passed it off as babble. I could do the same for everything you say, but I don't.

Learn to do the same. You're hypocrisy is showing.



> Again, explain what this is and how it relates to the 4th dimension, Fei, and the WE.



Look at my post. I don't know if you're piece quoting, or you're quoting rapidly, because I explained this in my post.



> I've explained all of the terms, beings, and phenomena on my side, it's only fair that you do the same.



We did. It's just you typically being Mike. And that's a person who doesn't hear anyone but himself.




> Yeah, and I had cited much better stuff earlier in this very thread.



I'm sure I said in an earlier post of mine that you quoted "I didn't read the entire thread"

Fucking selective reading/memory/Mike



> Difference is, I can show feats and you can't.



If you believe that, continue.



> Post-Retcon Molecule Man and Beyonder damage the multiverse in their fight.



You mean things were happening in other universes, because no multiverse was damaged.

Read your own scan correctly sir.


> Post-Retcon Beyonder has his own universe he can warp to his will, Kubik confronts him and shrinks the universe into the palm of his hand to crush it.
> 
> 
> 
> Show feats from Deus matching these. Also explain what "active" energy means, you failed to do this.



He won't match these because he lost when he gained the power of Zohar, but as I said, Zohar is his power source, and he has 100% throughput of it.

Zohar can:

Take the Big Bang (Paragraph: Phenomenon Phase Shift Zohar)


Id posted its ability to create new universes


*Spoiler*: _Zohar can connect to higher dimensional planes_ 




But the unexpected happened... During the connection tests of Zohar with the newly completed Deus, the engine started to examine 
Requiring energy, the engine *connected this dimension to the higher dimensional space*. As a result, *that reactor 'merged' or 'synchronized' with the wave existence in that higher dimension... ME.*





Being able to straddle onto a higher dimensional plane and ensnare a multiversal deity is much higher than what you showed me.

(although to be fair to the WE, the only reason WE was trapped was because it took . But the Zohar caused that to begin with, showing range and power)

Even Deus in larva form pre-merged with Zohar can cause space time anomalies. Larva form.
Link removed

P.S. And active energy. Energy you use. Wtf Mike, really? We know that when it creates energy, people are using it. DO we really have to overanalyze every fucking thing?




> Does Deus do that?



Again, Deus lost damn near right after gaining the power of Zohar. To Fei. Expectedly.


> You don't have a point. You can't powerscale if you don't have feats to start it off.



No way, really? I never knew you couldn't powerscale without feats. Thanks for clearing that up Mike.



> No, you're implying multiple levels of infinity.



That's not what that response is implying Mike. They never do.


----------



## Keollyn (Mar 22, 2011)

Vault said:


> Curious question, is this Fei dude omniversal?



No way at all is he.



Eldritch Sukima said:


> Seems like the argument right now is which multiversal being is more multiversal.



Except Galactus multiversal is implied. Galactus has a object that's multiversal, but he isn't--least not from any feats he has.

And this object is in question of being his standard quip. I could care less if it is really. Not really tipping any scale in his favor.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> This thread is just like
> 
> There is a very easy way to figure out how to do this.
> Find out what they are doing. When two people with omnipotence step up, it isn't the factor of output that makes a difference, it is mentality.
> ...



You fail at so many points it's not funny.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Mar 22, 2011)

neodragzero said:


> You were saying something?


This is proving how Warlock is less skilled with the Nullifier or how the Nullifier is weaker then the IG? I know what happened in the story and the reason he failed was due to the IG's attack not him failing to know how to use the Nullifier correctly. 


neodragzero said:


> Obviously yes. He's the only one to have done what he did to defeat Abraxas.


No this is simply Galactus using the Nulifier nothing there to suggest anyone else who has it can't do the same. Are we going to start doing the same thing with the IG as well now?
"Oh Warlock didn't do such and such with the guantlet so that means that character A's feats don't apply to him"



neodragzero said:


> No one else has done what Galactus has done with the UN. I think we call that a feat. Unless you have another scene of a weaker character using the UN to destroy something comparable to Abraxas? He also was able to make the UN appear from out of nowhere for usage and explained how it's actually as apart of him as his own heart. I don't think that's likely the case for numerous other characters.


Galactus can summon the Ultimate Nullifier because its not like its in his ship or anything or the fact that he can't transport other things to him? Its not much of a feat 
Okay so now were onto faulty logic when theres nothing to suggest that it works differently for other characters besides Galactus doing different things with it and him being just as threatened by it when in the hands of a "less skilled" wielder who in fact has better feats with it then Galactus.
Considering how many times this has been brought up in general to wank Galactus when imo its just conjecture that has not been brought up since in any of his appearances for a while


neodragzero said:


> Obviously yes. I thought everyone figured that out a long time ago as far as what the Ultimate Nullifier does and how it works. Maybe it's more powerful in the hands of a being above that of Galactus but I don't see anything to suggest that someone below that of Galactus could pull off what he did. Then again, that's a given when he's the only one that did what he did to get rid of Abraxas.



Thats not how the Ultimate Nullifier works and your using plot to validate how this is exclusive to Galactus but still not proving anything. I mean in general replace Galactus in that story with Franklin or Valeria and you could have the same outcome considering they were the ones who brought him back to life. Why didn't they just summon the Nullifier themselves? Plot Why didn't galactus get to rewrite the multiverse? plot 





neodragzero said:


> I'm the pot for calling you out in either being wrong about a certain hierarchy or what happens in certain scenes? I don't remember myself being the type to suggest stuff that isn't supported by fact in any way near what you have done.


More often then not Iv'e found your opinions to be wrong and had to correct you on what's actually happened before in other threads. If I'm proven wrong then I concede I don't drag out arguments and move goal posts instead of conceding.


----------



## neodragzero (Mar 22, 2011)

Correction: I meant Multi-Eternity, not Abraxas.



Matta Clatta said:


> This is proving how Warlock is less skilled with the Nullifier or how the Nullifier is weaker then the IG?


Your question makes absolutely no sense. I'm not attempting to prove that Warlock is less skilled or that the UN is weaker than the IG. What gave you that idea at all? Your question is a pointless red herring.


> I know what happened in the story and the reason he failed was due to the IG's attack not him failing to know how to use the Nullifier correctly.


You obviously didn't when you suggest that there's absolutely nothing to support what I put down which was the fact that that you kept referring to the UN and Magus without mentioning it was being used by Quasar, not Galactus.


> No this is simply Galactus using the Nulifier nothing there to suggest anyone else who has it can't do the same. Are we going to start doing the same thing with the IG as well now?
> "Oh Warlock didn't do such and such with the guantlet so that means that character A's feats don't apply to him"


It's already proven that he's done something no one else has. It's not up to me to prove a negative. The burden of proof is on you to prove that someone else weaker than Galactus could do what he did. Heck, that's not even the point to speak of when all we care about is simply what Galactus and his weapon can do.


> Galactus can summon the Ultimate Nullifier because its not like its in his ship or anything or the fact that he can't transport other things to him? Its not much of a feat
> Okay so now were onto faulty logic when theres nothing to suggest that it works differently for other characters besides Galactus doing different things with it and him being just as *threatened by it when in the hands of a "less skilled" wielder who in fact has better feats with it then Galactus.*
> Considering how many times this has been brought up in general to wank Galactus when imo its just conjecture that has not been brought up since in any of his appearances for a while


He actually doesn't keep the UN in his ship all the time. It's actually been passed around through the Marvel universe from place to place. But it's clear you again don't know what you're talking about. I don't consider porting it out from the hands of Abraxas himself to be easy. He was able to recall the weapon from the hands of someone of Abraxas' magnitude.

Please do share more about the bolded part.


> Thats not how the Ultimate Nullifier works and your using plot to validate how this is exclusive to Galactus but still not proving anything. I mean in general replace Galactus in that story with Franklin or Valeria and you could have the same outcome considering they were the ones who brought him back to life. Why didn't they just summon the Nullifier themselves? Plot Why didn't galactus rewrite the multiverse? plot


Still waiting for you to prove that these other characters could do what Galactus did in the same relative fashion. How exactly do we consider anything have done a feat if you simply consider it plot? Heck, you're the one who was attempting to claim that Dormammu will simply fight in hand to hand without using his powers in CIS just because he did that for what was a PIS event.

Seriously, all I'm getting from you is no actual evidence to speak of, ignorance of the material in general, and the burden of proof fallacy as you keep suggesting that a feat isn't viable because you don't like it as you keep suggesting that I prove a negative or something.


> More often then not Iv'e found your opinions to be wrong and had to correct you on what's actually happened before in other threads. If I'm proven wrong then I concede I don't drag out arguments and move goal posts instead of conceding.



I was wrong on the matter of the Living Tribunal being above the In-Betweener? I was wrong on the matter of Dormammu only fighting Strange hand to hand for strictly plot reasons involving a past honor pact and Mordo violating Dormammu's sense of honor by mystically attacking Strange from behind? Please do share where exactly I went wrong in the past. I'm always interested in knowing more about the Marvel cosmic stuff.


----------



## BenTennyson (Mar 22, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Having literally infinite power is something a Cube Being can do. Yet as Kubik pointed out, *there are multiple levels of infinity. *Celestials are beyond Cube Beings, Eternity is beyond Celestials, Multi-Eternity is infinitely beyond Eternity, and the UN destroyed and recreated Multi-Eternity instantly.



No.

That's just retarded.

Anyway, Galactus is a big bitch on average. Full power Galactus is pretty much a reoccuring myth.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Mar 22, 2011)

Okay weaker characters have better feats with the UN then Galactus?

Using the Ultimate Nullifier against Korvac and recalling it from Abraxas' grasp compare to Reed destroying and rewriting the Multiverse how?

I guess Neo hasn't read the story in question since he keeps saying weaker characters then Galactus don't have comparable feats when the Multiversal feat in question comes from Reed and not Galactus and it basically blows everything else hes down with the Nullifier out the water. 

By applying all showings of the UN is how we get Galactus being Multiversal in the first place and thats only to the conjecture of him saying its his heart which is bullshit imo since hes shown to lose control of it just as easily in the same story.


----------



## neodragzero (Mar 22, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> Okay weaker characters have better feats with the UN then Galactus?
> 
> Using the Ultimate Nullifier against Korvac and recalling it from Abraxas' grasp compare to Reed destroying and rewriting the Multiverse how?


I'm referring to the Multi-Eternity thing with it being general that Galactus wipes out multiverses with said weapon. Causing the guys that measure the omniverse considerable overtime for lost timelines speaks for itself. The recall thing isn't even my point at all but it helps to illustrate who has the grander authority over said weapon. Quasar obviously fails to prove a comparable feat at all with the backfiring of the weapon upon him not even destroying him permanently. I'm pretty sure that Quasar isn't multiversal durable. The issue here is that you kept suggesting that Quasar using the weapon reflects what Galactus can do with said weapon.


> This is also how I know Neo hasn't read the story in question since he keeps saying weaker characters then Galactus don't have comparable feats when the Multiversal feat in question comes from Reed and not Galactus and it basically blows everything else hes down with the Nullifier out the water.


It's a good thing I made it clear what I meant. You're a bit slow on the draw there. 


> By applying all showings of the UN is how we get Galactus being Multiversal in the first place.



Not really. Not all showings of the UN involve it being used for the sake of a multiversal target point. It's multiversal when we have the matter of what it's destructive level is and how Galactus uses it. You still kept bringing up the Magus thing without mentioning who was using the UN as if that depicts the full usage of said weapon.


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## Matta Clatta (Mar 22, 2011)

Ah okay

IIRC someone did do a cosmic hierarchy a while back on KMC and the feat with Magus against Quasar is above Reed's multiversal feat with the UN which is in turn above Galactus with the UN but that might only apply to Magus with the IG more then Quasar though.

EDIT: heres the thread


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## Tranquil Fury (Mar 22, 2011)

BenTennyson said:


> No.
> 
> *That's just retarded*.
> 
> Anyway, Galactus is a big bitch on average. Full power Galactus is pretty much a reoccuring myth.



He's not wrong per say:



And more:



"Our power is as nothing to the Celestials"
"But Kubik, do we not possess Infinite Power 
"Yes, Our might is Infinite. But there are Levels of Infinity"

"Thus are demonstrated two levels of infinity, there are of course, an infinite number more" 

The main quotes from the two scans above.

Regardless of who wins, he's not making this up.


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## neodragzero (Mar 22, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> Ah okay
> 
> IIRC someone did do a cosmic hierarchy a while back on KMC and the feat with Magus against Quasar is above Reed's multiversal feat with the UN which is in turn above Galactus with the UN but that might only apply to Magus with the IG more then Quasar though.
> 
> EDIT: heres the thread



You actually just noticed that now?

I feel that it applies to both Magus and Quasar in general. It's described as having the attack redirected back upon Quasar but what it did to Quasar was only temporary which doesn't make sense when Quasar is nowhere near the level of Abraxas nor the ridiculous amount of material rewritten by Galactus' feat that pisses off the guys that "audit" the omniverse with freakish overtime. The hierarchy lacks what Galactus himself did with the Ultimate Nullifier. It's actually kind of strange it's in that specific order as results go when one affects the multiverse while the other only affects cosmic abstracts+ as the peak while it being forcefully taken away is described as only risking the destruction of one universe.

All the more so when each universe in the multiverse has its own infinity gauntlet that works only within the boundary of its home universe. You can thank Jonathan Hickman for that last part when Reed interacts with the group of alternate universe Reeds.

But, yeah, the IG is still multiversal since it does affect numerous cosmic abstracts at once while it makes Eternity a sniveling bitch to the one who has its full might.


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## BenTennyson (Mar 22, 2011)

Tranquil Fury said:


> He's not wrong per say:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The premise itself is retarded, and thus discardable as idiotic hyperbole, I'm not saying the claim did not exist.

It's just another way of saying the Celestials are more powerful than someone else who is very powerful. Odin himself has been referred to as omnipotent a few times and we all know he is not. 
.


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## Fang (Mar 22, 2011)

You don't know what hyperbole is or you are clearly using it wrong.


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## Velocity (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm starting to think that Marvel characters above continent-level should be banned from fighting anyone from any other universe. The arguments that always repeat themselves only prove how convoluted and stupid the whole Marvel universe is - with all those different writers, they're all making crap up that doesn't make any sense. Multiversal characters? Different levels of infinity? Who even writes this nonsense?


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## zenieth (Mar 22, 2011)

Not your section bro.


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## Matta Clatta (Mar 22, 2011)

Writers make the Celestials even more powerful every time someone tries to make Galactus more powerful. Its pretty funny
I don't know enough to comment about the different levels of infinity


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## Sabotage (Mar 22, 2011)

Lyra said:


> I'm starting to think that Marvel characters above continent-level should be banned from fighting anyone from any other universe. The arguments that always repeat themselves only prove how convoluted and stupid the whole Marvel universe is - with all those different writers, they're all making crap up that doesn't make any sense. Multiversal characters? Different levels of infinity? Who even writes this nonsense?



Why? There are other multiversal characters in fiction.


----------



## BenTennyson (Mar 22, 2011)

Fang said:


> You don't know what hyperbole is or you are clearly using it wrong.



Cube beings, not infinite.

Celestials, not infinite. 

One is not going to be more infinite than the other. Omnipotent is omnipotent, which neither of them are as they exist within a hierarchy in which there is one entity at the top that is truly omnipotent.

Again, Hyperbole. Writer shmuck that shows up everyonce in a while for any old application that frequently fucks with/contradicts whatever other chaotic and cobbled attempt at solidarity in continuity that has been attempted. 

If the UN wins over the WE, its because it, simply put, has better feats. Not because its one infinite source over another. That would be a stalemate. At best one of them is infinite and the other isn't. At worst, both are simply multiversal and not truly infinite, with one being higher than the other. There, the problem is simplified.


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## Velocity (Mar 22, 2011)

zenieth said:


> Not your section bro.



I know _that_. It was just an observation... Honestly, it's quite ridiculous that any fight with a Marvel character is almost always going to end with that Marvel character winning just because Marvel Comics themselves are so incredibly convoluted and inconsistent that moderately powerful characters like Doctor Strange become galaxy busters who can move many times faster than light and mindfuck Galactus.


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## zenieth (Mar 22, 2011)

Marvel came up with Cantor's Theorem?

When has Dr. Strange Mindfucked Galactus? The OBD uses the most consistent feats when using a comic character. It's why Spiderman isn't kicking every person in the HST's collective ass at the same time for beating Firelord.


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## Sabotage (Mar 22, 2011)

zenieth said:


> Marvel came up with Cantor's Theorem?
> 
> When has Dr. Strange Mindfucked Galactus? The OBD uses the most consistent feats when using a comic character. It's why Spiderman isn't kicking every person in the HST's collective ass at the same time for beating Firelord.



It would be cool if Spidey could.


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## Keollyn (Mar 22, 2011)

I'd pay money for that to be canon.


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## Velocity (Mar 22, 2011)

zenieth said:


> When has Dr. Strange Mindfucked Galactus? The OBD uses the most consistent feats when using a comic character. It's why Spiderman isn't kicking every person in the HST's collective ass at the same time for beating Firelord.



"The Trial of Galactus". Doc Strange used something called the Images of Ikonn on Galactus and pretty much took him out with that alone.

As for your example... Spiderman isn't a planetary+ character, so he hardly counts. Characters like that are fine. It's when you start adding in Infinity Gauntlets and Cosmic Cubes and other things like that that stuff gets really bad.


----------



## zenieth (Mar 22, 2011)

Who said it wouldn't be? And we're getting off topic this is Keo vs. Mike.


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## Keollyn (Mar 22, 2011)

Most accurate topic, eh zenieth?


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## zenieth (Mar 22, 2011)

Nah most accurate topic would be

Asian chicks vs. Toasters.


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## Superbot400 (Mar 22, 2011)

> "The Trial of Galactus". Doc Strange used something called the Images of Ikonn on Galactus and pretty much took him out with that alone.


Galactus was distracted by Thor, and Iron man. Galactus was going to die at the time from not eating anything for a long ass time.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Mar 22, 2011)

Multiversal characters are being discussed in this thread and there are others even stronger. Several anime/manga, comics, novels, games are taking it to that level. Marvel did not come up with something that already existed long before by people who know more about this than you or me. It's not retarded anymore than various other advanced concepts and theories in science or mathematics.

Welcome to fiction where characters can play with reality itself or shatter it on a whim if the writers so allow such a character in their work.


----------



## Endless Mike (Mar 22, 2011)

X-Man said:


> Look even if my interpretation of calling it energy be damned,  lets reference it as Nullification Phenomena (N.P.), for lack of better wording & argument. This N. P. was still manipulated, by I.G.
> 
> What your failing to grasp, is while the wilder may vary, but the N.P. effect remains constant. The power of a Multiversal reality warper in Magnus w/I.G. thwarted the Nullification effect. Why would a rival with the same power, and tier fare any different?



You're assuming Fei is as strong as the IG. Prove this assertion. 



> The Zohar Modifier has imprisoned higher level beings without dimension, and boundaries.
> 
> When scientist made contact with the Zohar, they desired the ultimate energy source to fuel their pet project System Deus. The Zohar responded by reaching out beyond the third dimensions, seeking a higher power, pulling it down, and entrapping the Multiversal being known as Harr, creator of the multiverse.
> 
> ...



So can Cube Beings.... 



> That adds much more diversity, than merely a nullifying effect, and one ambiguous showing of recreating.



Ambiguous? It was directly shown and stated.



X-Man said:


> Before I step out, here are some scans not so well known. It provides some nice pieces of information, you can find the entire book translated in the Diablo Corp link (check sig), first page - first post.
> *snip*



First scan doesn't specify anything that Cube Beings can't do.
Second scan just implies reality warping with no information on scale or anything else.
Third scan refers to the Wave Existence being confined to a single dimension. Sounds a lot weaker than you're making it out to be. So really that only hurts your own argument.



Matta Clatta said:


> The IG is multiversal too but suddenly not on the scale of the apparent "infinite realities" Ultimate Nullifier which in the end was thwarted by Magus with the IG. Its even worse because I doubt Magus is as skilled with its use as Thanos or Adam Warlock.



UN is multiversal, IG is higher multiversal. How hard is this to understand?



> So in the fight now Galactus has to summon the Ultimate Nullifier, use it, and hope that its energies don't get absorbed at which point he would wipe out all existence and assume its effects would be successful on Fei. High risk and high chance of failure.



How can you absorb nonexistence?



Matta Clatta said:


> I think you got mixed up there for a bit
> And theres absolutely nothing to support what your saying so.........yeah
> 
> Does Galactus' one time use of the Ultimate Nullifier in that way suggest that no one else can use it that way? Did the story in question state that only Galactus was capable of doing this? Is the Ultimate Nullifier less of a weapon in anyone else's hands?



He's used it at least twice, once against Korvac and once in the BCS



Keollyn said:


> I get what you're implying, and yes, at one point Fei only had the power of the WE, but wasn't as powerful.
> 
> But that was the whole point of the second contact. To get his full rights. The power of the WE, the only power that could destroy the Zohar.
> 
> And he did.



Two things here.

1. Please show a scan, clip, or evidence that he has the full power of the WE.

2. If he needed that full power to destroy the Zohar, that means Zohar isn't as weak relatively as you were making it out to be.



> Attempting to not give a damn. Try it sometimes.



Which is the same thing as conceding the point.



> Yeah, we call those plot no jutsu.
> 
> Because the UN destroyed nothing that was WE level. I've explained what the WE is, you're comparing Mutli-Eternity to it because they sound the same. Sound the same, doesn't make them the same.



Then show me evidence the WE is superior to Multi-Eternity.



> Sounds like this "I'm winning" again. Sure Mike, whatever you say.



If you refuse to address a point, then you concede that point. That's how debating works. Don't like it? Don't debate then.



> No, in fact you didn't.



Blatant lie.



Here I mention the Mephisto fight



Here I mention the Hyperstorm fight.

If you're going to lie, at least make sure it's not something that anyone can check by just rereading the thread 



> No, I did. You just passed it off as babble. I could do the same for everything you say, but I don't.
> 
> Learn to do the same. You're hypocrisy is showing.



Wrong, I posted scans and feats and defined my terms. You posted stuff with undefined terms. I asked you to define said terms. You responded by saying I was ignoring your arguments, instead of just giving me the information I asked for.

If you asked me "Who/What are Abraxas, Multi-Eternity, the Power Cosmic, the Ultimate Nullifier, etc. and how do they relate to Galactus" I would be glad to answer that (I already have to a point but if you want further clarification I'll happily provide it).

When I asked you "Who/What are the Path of Sephirot, the 4th Dimension, Deus, Zohar, etc. and how do they relate to Fei and the WE" you refused to answer and just claimed I was dismissing your arguments. You are the only one being hypocritical here.



> Look at my post. I don't know if you're piece quoting, or you're quoting rapidly, because I explained this in my post.



Where? I don't see it. Give me an overview, sum it up.



> We did. It's just you typically being Mike. And that's a person who doesn't hear anyone but himself.



If you did explain what I asked, you should be able to link to where you did, like I did earlier in this very post. The fact that you have not proves you are being dishonest.



> I'm sure I said in an earlier post of mine that you quoted "I didn't read the entire thread"
> 
> Fucking selective reading/memory/Mike



Is that my problem? This thread was only 5 pages or so when you joined, is it really too much to expect you to read it first before posting? Otherwise you could be posting arguments that have already been discussed and refuted.

Go reread the whole thread now and don't reply again until you have.



> If you believe that, continue.



It's not a matter of belief, I went to the trouble of uploading the scans and showing them to you.



> You mean things were happening in other universes, because no multiverse was damaged.
> 
> Read your own scan correctly sir.



"Across both time and space, from the quantum to the *trans-multiversal*, reality trembles as the forces unleashed reverberate throughout creation".

Take your own advice.



> He won't match these because he lost when he gained the power of Zohar, but as I said, Zohar is his power source, and he has 100% throughput of it.



But you said Deus was weaker than Zohar.



> Zohar can:
> 
> Take the Big Bang (Paragraph: Phenomenon Phase Shift Zohar)
> *snip*
> ...



Keyword there is "potential". As in, not actual. That just implies infinite processing power, which is nice, but not actually manipulating infinite universes like you were claiming.



> Being able to straddle onto a higher dimensional plane and ensnare a multiversal deity is much higher than what you showed me.



"Ensnare"? It says it merged with the WE, not controlled it or captured it or anything. Besides, this whole time you were saying the WE > Zohar, so then how could Zohar "ensnare" it?



> (although to be fair to the WE, the only reason WE was trapped was because it took . But the Zohar caused that to begin with, showing range and power)



So Zohar "merged" with a weaker version of the WE which was only 4 - dimensional. Do you have any evidence that this merger was non-consentual as you seem to be implying? After all, isn't the basis that a normal human could "merge" with the WE? That doesn't mean that normal human > WE.



> Even Deus in larva form pre-merged with Zohar can cause space time anomalies. Larva form.
> Link removed



Space-time anomalies? Be more specific. Star Trek ships can create "space - time anomalies".



> P.S. And active energy. Energy you use. Wtf Mike, really? We know that when it creates energy, people are using it. DO we really have to overanalyze every fucking thing?



I was just asking the meaning of the particular qualifier in that instance since it could mean a variety of things depending on context.



> Again, Deus lost damn near right after gaining the power of Zohar. To Fei. Expectedly.



Let me try to explain this again. I powerscaled Galactus starting with the feats of Cube Beings. You responded by trying to powerscale Fei starting with Deus. Naturally, I asked for feats from Deus, because you need something to establish a chain of powerscaling. You posted a scan of Deus saying it could use infinite energy from the Zohar. I then responded that that was only a small amount of what a Cube Being could do and much less versatile. You mentioned all of this other stuff as being versatile. I asked if that applied to Deus. You said no. Thus making it a red herring.

I was attempting to compare your powerscaling to mine. My chain started at Cube Beings, your started at Deus. So naturally, I was trying to compare Cube Beings to Deus. Then you say Deus got defeated early and thus has pretty much no feats, and tried to use other stuff that Deus did not do to compare. Do you see how you broke the comparison here?



> No way, really? I never knew you couldn't powerscale without feats. Thanks for clearing that up Mike.



You used Deus as your "set up man". Then you said Deus had no feats.



> That's not what that response is implying Mike. They never do.



You kept claiming Zohar had infinite energy and Fei was above him. That sounds like multiple levels of infinity to me. Unless you're claiming Xenogears has only one level of infinity, in which case Fei loses as Galactus has multiple levels of infinity.



Keollyn said:


> Except Galactus multiversal is implied. Galactus has a object that's multiversal, but he isn't--least not from any feats he has.



In the Black Celestial Saga he was devouring a universe and it was going to spread to the multiverse if he didn't use the UN to stop it. When he fought Mephisto he damaged the universe from Mephisto's dimension. Further powerscaling and reliable statements put him at multiversal.

What you keep refusing to acknowledge is that Cube Beings are universal to multiversal - see Franklin Richards casually creating universes, Kubik vs. Beyonder (which I posted already), etc. These guys are shit to Galactus.

Kubik directly says that he and beings like him are *nothing* to a single Celestial. Eternity created the Celestials by meditating (there are at least billions of Celestials). Galactus at FP is equal to Eternity.

The problem is that Galactus himself has never had a chance to show what he can do at his full power.



> You fail at so many points it's not funny.



Actually he has a very good point. How strong is Fei's mind? His soul? Galactus can manipulate both of them. If he has no or insufficient telepathic defenses he could get mindraped.



Matta Clatta said:


> Galactus can summon the Ultimate Nullifier because its not like its in his ship or anything or the fact that he can't transport other things to him? Its not much of a feat
> Okay so now were onto faulty logic when theres nothing to suggest that it works differently for other characters besides Galactus doing different things with it and him being just as threatened by it when in the hands of a "less skilled" wielder who in fact has better feats with it then Galactus.
> Considering how many times this has been brought up in general to wank Galactus when imo its just conjecture that has not been brought up since in any of his appearances for a while





"The Ultimate Nullifier. As much a part of me as my heart itself."



BenTennyson said:


> No.
> 
> That's just retarded.
> 
> Anyway, Galactus is a big bitch on average. Full power Galactus is pretty much a reoccuring myth.



Just because you don't understand the concept doesn't make it retarded.



Matta Clatta said:


> By applying all showings of the UN is how we get Galactus being Multiversal in the first place and thats only to the conjecture of him saying its his heart which is bullshit imo since hes shown to lose control of it just as easily in the same story.



Um, no. As soon as Abraxas got it Galactus snatched it from him.



BenTennyson said:


> The premise itself is retarded, and thus discardable as idiotic hyperbole, I'm not saying the claim did not exist.



Wrong. It's based on actual mathematical theories in real life. Again, just because _you_ don't understand it doesn't mean you can ignore it.



> It's just another way of saying the Celestials are more powerful than someone else who is very powerful. Odin himself has been referred to as omnipotent a few times and we all know he is not.



Having infinite power is different from being omnipotent. Infinite power means you can call upon infinite energy to do your work. Omnipotence means you can do anything you want even if it makes no sense at all.

True omnipotent vs. Guy with merely infinite power: Omnipotent sets the infinite power to 0 and kills him.


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## Superbot400 (Mar 22, 2011)

> Its even worse because I doubt Magus is as skilled with its use as Thanos or Adam Warlock.


Magus is just a evil counterpart of Adam Warlock. They are pretty much one and the same at this point of their career. I don't see why Magus wouldn't be as skilled or as resources if you consider Magus master plan in that story. 



> So in the fight now Galactus has to summon the Ultimate Nullifier, use it, and hope that its energies don't get absorbed at which point he would wipe out all existence and assume its effects would be successful on Fei. High risk and high chance of failure.


The only Human that was able to use the Ultimate Nullifier without erasing themselves was Reed Richard. Even somebody like Korvac couldn't focus his mind to use the idea. 

Meanwhile Galactus is show to casually use the UN to wipe out a person that just stole power cosmic. He didn't give a shit to what he was doing to TVA.  They even comment that Galactus might have been using it more than once.



So...despite the inconsistency of Abraxas. Galactus has use the UN, and he can completely control his thoughts.


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## Matta Clatta (Mar 22, 2011)

Dr Strange is a better telapath then Xavier but I don't think mind fucking a weak Galactus counts at all. Having said that a Full power Galactus is a myth since hes always hungry and constantly losing power because of that hunger. Whatever he does when hes well fed it the best you can hope for.


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## zenieth (Mar 22, 2011)

That makes me wonder. Would Galactus' counterpart in DC be Desire of the Endless?


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## Endless Mike (Mar 22, 2011)

Lyra said:


> I'm starting to think that Marvel characters above continent-level should be banned from fighting anyone from any other universe. The arguments that always repeat themselves only prove how convoluted and stupid the whole Marvel universe is - with all those different writers, they're all making crap up that doesn't make any sense.



Actually they have editors and continuity people to keep it consistent.



> Multiversal characters?



What's wrong with that? Multiversal characters are in all kinds of fiction. Fei is apparently multiversal too, so why aren't you bitching at the Xenogears side? 



> Different levels of infinity? Who even writes this nonsense?



For the last fucking time, *there are real life scientific and mathematical theories that use different levels of infinity!* Just because it's not something a layperson can easily understand doesn't make it nonsense. In fact the Xenogears side is also positing different levels of infinity since they are claiming Fei is above the "infinite" Zohar.



BenTennyson said:


> Cube beings, not infinite.



Not in their abilities but they do have infinite power. For example, they could fire a blast with infinity joules of energy if they so wished.



> Celestials, not infinite.



Again not in ability but in power, and a higher level of power than Cube Beings.



> One is not going to be more infinite than the other. Omnipotent is omnipotent, which neither of them are as they exist within a hierarchy in which there is one entity at the top that is truly omnipotent.



Lean the difference between infinity and omnipotence. I can have the ability to bench infinity pounds, or fire infinity missiles, but that doesn't make me omnipotent.



> Again, Hyperbole. Writer shmuck that shows up everyonce in a while for any old application that frequently fucks with/contradicts whatever other chaotic and cobbled attempt at solidarity in continuity that has been attempted.



Stop ignoring evidence just because you don't like it.



> If the UN wins over the WE, its because it, simply put, has better feats. Not because its one infinite source over another. That would be a stalemate. At best one of them is infinite and the other isn't. At worst, both are simply multiversal and not truly infinite, with one being higher than the other. There, the problem is simplified.



Again, learn the difference between infinity and omnipotence, troll.



Lyra said:


> I know _that_. It was just an observation... Honestly, it's quite ridiculous that any fight with a Marvel character is almost always going to end with that Marvel character winning just because Marvel Comics themselves are so incredibly convoluted and inconsistent that moderately powerful characters like Doctor Strange become galaxy busters who can move many times faster than light and mindfuck Galactus.



Hyperbole + ignorance = butthurt.



Lyra said:


> "The Trial of Galactus". Doc Strange used something called the Images of Ikonn on Galactus and pretty much took him out with that alone.



A severely weakened and starving Galactus. 



Superbot400 said:


> Galactus was distracted by Thor, and Iron man. Galactus was going to die at the time from not eating anything for a long ass time.



Trolls like these tend to discount mentioning those "inconvenient" little facts that refute their arguments.



Superbot400 said:


> The only Human that was able to use the Ultimate Nullifier without erasing themselves was Reed Richard. Even somebody like Korvac couldn't focus his mind to use the idea.



That's because Reed is a supergenius with ridiculous intelligence feats.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 22, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> Dr Strange is a better telapath then Xavier but I don't think mind fucking a weak Galactus counts at all. Having said that a Full power Galactus is a myth since hes always hungry and constantly losing power because of that hunger. Whatever he does when hes well fed it the best you can hope for.



Except by default in a vs. thread all characters are at their full power. We know what FP G is capable of via powerscaling, statements, and narration.


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## Velocity (Mar 22, 2011)

I already know what you're like Endless Mike, so I'd rather not give you an excuse to insult me more and get yourself banned. I mean, you've proven multiple times that you can't stop yourself from insulting people. So if I were you, I'd calm down. Or try to. If you even can. It'd save paperwork.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 22, 2011)

Lyra said:


> I already know what you're like Endless Mike, so I'd rather not give you an excuse to insult me more and get yourself banned. I mean, you've proven multiple times that you can't stop yourself from insulting people. So if I were you, I'd calm down. Or try to. If you even can. It'd save paperwork.



I did not insult you, I insulted your arguments. Learn the difference.

Also, you are espousing a style over substance fallacy. Even if I did insult you, it would not matter, as the insults would not change the validity of my arguments.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Mar 22, 2011)

Wasn't there a good analogy about the levels of infinite power? I believe it goes something like compare a spray gun with infinite source of water with a fire hose with infinite source of water


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## zenieth (Mar 22, 2011)

Mike think about chachamaru and relax.


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## Velocity (Mar 22, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> I did not insult you, I insulted your arguments. Learn the difference.
> 
> Also, you are espousing a style over substance fallacy. Even if I did insult you, it would not matter, as the insults would not change the validity of my arguments.



I'm not _espousing_ anything. You're just, again, trying to assert superiority with backhanded insults you refuse to acknowledge. Except now you're adding in a more complex vocabulary to try and make me look stupid in that regard as well.  Which won't work, I should add. I use a normal person's vocabulary because I choose to, not because I can't do better.

Why even write espousing instead of adopting? Was it _really_ that important to use one extra letter?

If I refute your claims and drag this debate on, you'll just keep insulting me. It's what you do, you proved that before. If I can't even have a sensible discussion with someone, I don't have a discussion at all. It's quite simple.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 22, 2011)

zenieth said:


> Mike think about chachamaru and relax.



I don't relax when I'm debating. It dulls my killer instinct


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 22, 2011)

I don't really understand the complaints about Marvel's cosmics beings. Marvel didn't invent different levels of infinity or absurdly powerful multiversal entities. Their cosmic host has just been explored much more thoroughly than that of, say, the Cthulhu Mythos.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 22, 2011)

Lyra said:


> I'm not _espousing_ anything. You're just, again, trying to assert superiority with backhanded insults you refuse to acknowledge. Except now you're adding in a more complex vocabulary to try and make me look stupid in that regard as well.  Which won't work, I should add. I use a normal person's vocabulary because I choose to, not because I can't do better.



When did I ever criticize your vocabulary?



> Why even write espousing instead of adopting? Was it _really_ that important to use one extra letter?



That's just the word that came to mind off the top of my head. It's how I write. Sorry if I wasted your time by making you go look it up in the dictionary before responding.



> If I refute your claims and drag this debate on, you'll just keep insulting me. It's what you do, you proved that before. If I can't even have a sensible discussion with someone, I don't have a discussion at all. It's quite simple.



Again, I did not insult you. Also what makes you think you are capable of refuting any of my claims? You came in here saying the Marvel cosmic stuff makes no sense, I pointed out that you were being biased as all of your criticisms applied equally to the Xenogears side. You refused to acknowledge this and went off on an irrelevant tangent.


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## Keollyn (Mar 22, 2011)

Kirihara said:


> Wasn't there a good analogy about the levels of infinite power? I believe it goes something like compare a spray gun with infinite source of water with a fire hose with infinite source of water



That's output, not source. But it doesn't change the fact the infinite should only be infinite. Not infinity + 1.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 22, 2011)

Keollyn said:


> That's output, not source. But it doesn't change the fact the infinite should only be infinite. Not infinity + 1.



Yet your side is claiming that Zohar is infinite and Fei and the WE are above it.

How is that not the same as multiple levels of infinity?


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## Keollyn (Mar 22, 2011)

I never said it was a good system, did I?

But it's more because Zohar manipulates infinite energy from the 4th dimension. The WE manipulates infinite energy from the Wave Dimension.

Pretty much different energies.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 22, 2011)

And one is higher than another. Multiple levels of infinity.


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## Keollyn (Mar 22, 2011)

Different is a better word. Multiple adds to the whole mathematic issue.


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## Velocity (Mar 22, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> When did I ever criticize your vocabulary?





> That's just the word that came to mind off the top of my head. It's how I write. Sorry if I wasted your time by making you go look it up in the dictionary before responding.



Y'know, I really have no idea. 



> Again, I did not insult you. Also what makes you think you are capable of refuting any of my claims? You came in here saying the Marvel cosmic stuff makes no sense, I pointed out that you were being biased as all of your criticisms applied equally to the Xenogears side. You refused to acknowledge this and went off on an irrelevant tangent.



It's quite easy, actually. I didn't say Marvel made no sense, I said I didn't like how the Marvel Universe handles the inconsistencies or how it inflates major characters within the "Omniverse" so that they still remain relevant. Even minor characters like Jubilee are treated like that.

Xenogears is quite a lot different, actually, seeing as how it has a definitive beginning, middle and end. My criticisms don't apply because characters are as strong as they are because it was decided this way by Takahashi. When it comes to Marvel characters, they're as strong as the current writer wants them to be and the entire Marvel bibliography can be considered to be a pissing contest between fanfiction writers.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 22, 2011)

Keollyn said:


> Different is a better word. Multiple adds to the whole mathematic issue.



It would mean basically the same thing...



Lyra said:


> It's quite easy, actually. I didn't say Marvel made no sense, I said I didn't like how the Marvel Universe handles the inconsistencies or how it inflates major characters within the "Omniverse" so that they still remain relevant. Even minor characters like Jubilee are treated like that.



You know the point of the X-Men and mutants is that they "evolve" and get stronger, right?



> Xenogears is quite a lot different, actually, seeing as how it has a definitive beginning, middle and end. My criticisms don't apply because characters are as strong as they are because it was decided this way by Takahashi. When it comes to Marvel characters, they're as strong as the current writer wants them to be and the entire Marvel bibliography can be considered to be a pissing contest between fanfiction writers.



Wrong. You made criticisms that applied equally to both sides, and now you're backpeddling. Again, the writers do their best to keep everything consistent and they do a remarkable job for a continuity with so much material to reference and work through. The mere fact that we are able to make coherent arguments by referencing canon events proves you wrong. You just don't want to accept how strong Marvel cosmic characters are because you don't like that they beat your favorites.


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## Keollyn (Mar 22, 2011)

The energies are different....

You know what, I'm far to tired for this. I'm saving up any energy I have to respond to your reply later.


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## Superbot400 (Mar 22, 2011)

This is Kubik's logic for the idea that Celesital are twice or more powerful than Cosmic Cubes.



Not as complex as some of you making it to be...


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## Endless Mike (Mar 22, 2011)

Keollyn said:


> The energies are different....



Doesn't matter, because even if energy A was equal to 1 point per unit and energy B was equal to 100 points per unit, an infinite amount of both would still be equal.



> You know what, I'm far to tired for this. I'm saving up any energy I have to respond to your reply later.



You mean you haven't given up yet? 



Superbot400 said:


> This is Kubik's logic for the idea that Celesital are twice or more powerful than Cosmic Cubes.
> 
> 
> 
> Not as complex as some of you making it to be...



Of course. They're simply whining because they don't want to accept the evidence.


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## Keollyn (Mar 22, 2011)

Given up when you still don't have a leg to stand on?

Why would I want to do something like that?


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## Keollyn (Mar 22, 2011)

Unless fanfiction G is allowed, that is.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 22, 2011)

Keollyn said:


> Given up when you still don't have a leg to stand on?
> 
> Why would I want to do something like that?



I've provided tons of evidence to back up my arguments. You've been mostly incoherent.



Keollyn said:


> Unless fanfiction G is allowed, that is.



Full power is the default. Galactus' full power can be reasonably extrapolated from powerscaling and other evidence. Besides we have the UN feat. I've provided a lot more concrete evidence than you have.


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## Orion (Mar 22, 2011)

If one person has infinite energy and then there is someone who is stronger how is that any different from marvels Infinity+ 1 stuff?


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## Endless Mike (Mar 22, 2011)

It's not infinity+1 it's more like more expansive sets of infinity in higher dimensions.


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## Orion (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm aware, I was just going with the short version, the point is they don't seem any different at all.


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## neodragzero (Mar 22, 2011)

Orion said:


> If one person has infinite energy and then there is someone who is stronger how is that any different from marvels Infinity+ 1 stuff?



An infinity set of 1,2,3, etc. is still superior to an infinity set of 2,4,6, etc, or 1, 3, 5, etc, or 3, 6, 9, etc, and so forth when the first infinity contains all possible values going on into infinity.


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## Fang (Mar 22, 2011)

Cardinal numbers.


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## neodragzero (Mar 22, 2011)

Fang said:


> Cardinal numbers.



Basically all of that in the nut shell of two words.


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## Matta Clatta (Mar 22, 2011)

Powerscaling FP Galactus is just another form of wanking him when he actually has feats after hes fed on a planet. Its not needed

You can powerscale the people hes beaten certainly but all the subjective claims that make him equal to Eternity or stronger then Celestials is just wrong imo.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 22, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> Powerscaling FP Galactus is just another form of wanking him when he actually has feats after hes fed on a planet. Its not needed



You think feeding on one planet puts him at full power?

His hunger has been constantly increasing, he controls himself as best he can, if he went out of control he would start devouring the universe as seen in the Black Celestial saga.



> You can powerscale the people hes beaten certainly but all the subjective claims that make him equal to Eternity or stronger then Celestials is just wrong imo.



At the very least he is on par with the strongest Celestials (save Scathan of course)


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## Velocity (Mar 22, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> You know the point of the X-Men and mutants is that they "evolve" and get stronger, right?



Characters getting stronger is understandable, expected even, in fiction. But then again, characters aren't meant to exist for as long as Marvel characters do. So they get stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger and never stop getting stronger. Different writers take over and create their own interpretation of that character, increasing or decreasing power as necessary... Before you know it, we've got Reed Richards - the man whose intelligence is so great that nobody in the world of fiction can compare - or Hulk, the character who somehow even survives being reduced to atoms.



> Wrong. You made criticisms that applied equally to both sides, and now you're backpeddling. Again, the writers do their best to keep everything consistent and they do a remarkable job for a continuity with so much material to reference and work through. The mere fact that we are able to make coherent arguments by referencing canon events proves you wrong. You just don't want to accept how strong Marvel cosmic characters are because you don't like that they beat your favorites.


No, you're simply not reading what I'm writing. Which is understandable, I s'pose. People who don't respect other people rarely ever pay attention.

It doesn't matter if those writers "do their best". This subforum in itself has plenty of examples where one member references one event in a certain character's comic and another member instant refutes that event by saying the writer was just fapping to them or that the character had a "jobber aura". Those writers in themselves are fallable simply because they weren't the original creators of the characters. In fact, those writers more'n likely grew up reading the comics. *They're biased.*

What does that mean? It's quite simple. The creator of Xenogears isn't. Anything that occurs in Xenogears, any "feats", were intended from the very beginning by the person who essentially wrote the game. I'd wager almost every single feat used for comic book characters was never intended by the original writer. In fact, I'd go so far as to wager that Stan Lee and Steve Ditko would laugh you out of the building if you asked them in 1963 whether or not they imagined Doctor Strange to be someone able to destroy galaxies and move many times faster than light.

Ultimately, then, my criticism doesn't apply to both unless you're only using feats from Jack Kirby's comics when referencing Galactus.


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## zenieth (Mar 22, 2011)

Scathan is a bro.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Mar 22, 2011)

Kuuga style thumbs up


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## zenieth (Mar 22, 2011)

Scathan is obviously what Kuuga went on to be after defeating the Grongi.


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## Matta Clatta (Mar 22, 2011)

So your criticism is that Marvel and DC don't have endings which opens them up to get stronger and stronger which isn't fair compared to series that have definitive endings and caps on their strength?

Imo thats usually taken care of when Characters die but people usually note the version of the character their using ie the most powerful incarnation or the current version et etc


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## Crimson Dragoon (Mar 22, 2011)

zenieth said:


> Scathan is obviously what Kuuga went on to be after defeating the Grongi.


hey, that doctor did say he'll keep on changing to fight for everyone's smiles 

obviously that means he eventually evolved into a cosmic multiversal being


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## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 22, 2011)

Didn't Galactus do better than all of the Celestials in the fight against the Galactus Engine?


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## Endless Mike (Mar 22, 2011)

Lyra said:


> Characters getting stronger is understandable, expected even, in fiction. But then again, characters aren't meant to exist for as long as Marvel characters do.



Why? Because you say so?



> So they get stronger and stronger and stronger and stronger and never stop getting stronger. Different writers take over and create their own interpretation of that character, increasing or decreasing power as necessary... Before you know it, we've got Reed Richards - the man whose intelligence is so great that nobody in the world of fiction can compare - or Hulk, the character who somehow even survives being reduced to atoms.



So what? This is just complaining about them being powerful. Deal with it.



> No, you're simply not reading what I'm writing. Which is understandable, I s'pose. People who don't respect other people rarely ever pay attention.



Why should I respect someone who barges into a thread like this not to debate the topic but just to whine and complain about Marvel characters being powerful? 



> It doesn't matter if those writers "do their best". This subforum in itself has plenty of examples where one member references one event in a certain character's comic and another member instant refutes that event by saying the writer was just fapping to them or that the character had a "jobber aura". Those writers in themselves are fallable simply because they weren't the original creators of the characters. In fact, those writers more'n likely grew up reading the comics. *They're biased.*



Everyone is biased to some extent. Instead of attacking their bias, try arguing with canon information and logic.

In fact, if we use your logic here, then obviously a writer will be more biased in favor of their own creations than the creations of someone else, so writers who are writing their own original characters are the least trustworthy 



> What does that mean? It's quite simple. The creator of Xenogears isn't. Anything that occurs in Xenogears, any "feats", were intended from the very beginning by the person who essentially wrote the game. I'd wager almost every single feat used for comic book characters was never intended by the original writer. In fact, I'd go so far as to wager that Stan Lee and Steve Ditko would laugh you out of the building if you asked them in 1963 whether or not they imagined Doctor Strange to be someone able to destroy galaxies and move many times faster than light.



Characters evolve over time. What's your point? It's all canon. You're just whining.



> Ultimately, then, my criticism doesn't apply to both unless you're only using feats from Jack Kirby's comics when referencing Galactus.



So I should ignore the vast majority of canon? One person can't write thousands upon thousands of comics.



Eldritch Sukima said:


> Didn't Galactus do better than all of the Celestials in the fight against the Galactus Engine?



Well they were all fighting various other cosmic beings from the Cancerverse but Galactus did seem to be at the forefront of the defense, so good point.


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## zenieth (Mar 22, 2011)

There needs to be a Scathan comic.


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## Shock Therapy (Mar 22, 2011)

This thread... All i got from it is that both are multiversal, but Galactus has something that can destroy a multiversal. But of course there's that argument on which multiversal is higher and whatnot.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 22, 2011)

zenieth said:


> There needs to be a Scathan comic.



He would go around approving and disapproving of random shit. And the shit he disapproved of would get wiped from existence.


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## Fang (Mar 22, 2011)

at Kirby or Lee not giving a fuck about what their characters do

even back in the 60's and 70's you had one fight written by them that had Odin and Forsung fighting across the entire universe, and destroying galaxies and stars as side effects


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## Endless Mike (Mar 22, 2011)

Yeah, I mean in general Silver Age stuff was more crazy than what's being written now


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## zenieth (Mar 22, 2011)

Scathan approval Gauntlet


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## Id (Mar 22, 2011)

Full power Galactus is a *myth*, the entire argument is build entirely from what other characters have done. But if this supposed *myth* is true, at his height he would rival Eternity, which still isn?t enough. Yes the living embodiment of the universe/multiverse (however he likes to be referred), would fall short to the embodiment of the Creator of the Mulitverse. 

Galactus is a bounded by limits, over time he will exert himself, and thus weaken. 

Fie on the other does not have the same limitations, and we have a book explain in detail what he is capable of doing. Like Galan merging with the dieing sentience of the universe, thus become a composite being known as Galactus. Fie upon aligning itself with the Zohar Modifier, and successfully making  contact, merged with Harr to become a new composite being made up of both (no name change required). 

The benefits is gaining Harr?s power ?The Wave Existence?, and the ability to phenomenal phase shift makes it impossible to beat unless your grossly beyond Multiversal status, like the 5D imps.  

*Wave Existence:* Creation Matter, that gave birth to the Multiverse. The ultimate fuel source, found in dimension higher. 

*Zohar and Phenomenal Phase Shifting:* The ability to regulate, and manipulate energy. Ambient or internal. With it, you can alter reality to your desire. Its function is perfect within the 4th dimension (the Multiverse). 

That?s the problem, with taking on Fie. Fie has so much raw power internalize, on top of his ability to manipulate ambient energy around him on the whim.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 22, 2011)

X-Man said:


> Full power Galactus is a *myth*, the entire argument is build entirely from what other characters have done. But if this supposed *myth* is true, at his height he would rival Eternity, which still isn?t enough. Yes the living embodiment of the universe/multiverse (however he likes to be referred), would fall short to the embodiment of the Creator of the Mulitverse.



Not if you add the UN to the equation. 



> Galactus is a bounded by limits, over time he will exert himself, and thus weaken.



Not if he can absorb energy from his surroundings and/or his opponent.



> Fie on the other does not have the same limitations, and we have a book explain in detail what he is capable of doing. Like Galan merging with the dieing sentience of the universe, thus become a composite being known as Galactus. Fie upon aligning itself with the Zohar Modifier, and successfully making  contact, merged with Harr to become a new composite being made up of both (no name change required).



According to your logic Androids 17 and 18 from DBZ would beat Galactus because they don't run out of energy and he can 



> The benefits is gaining Harr?s power ?The Wave Existence?, and the ability to phenomenal phase shift makes it impossible to beat unless your grossly beyond Multiversal status, like the 5D imps.



Prove it. All I've seen about this ability is a way to alter causality which includes creating new universes with different parameters. That's really not comparable to a real multiversal ability.



> *Wave Existence:* Creation Matter, that gave birth to the Multiverse. The ultimate fuel source, found in dimension higher.
> 
> *Zohar and Phenomenal Phase Shifting:* The ability to regulate, and manipulate energy. Ambient or internal. With it, you can alter reality to your desire. Its function is perfect within the 4th dimension (the Multiverse).



And the UN shattered and remade the multiverse instantly. 



> That?s the problem, with taking on Fie. Fie has so much raw power internalize, on top of his ability to manipulate ambient energy around him on the whim.



So can Galactus, or he can use the UN to just negate it all.


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## Id (Mar 22, 2011)

Here let me post an example of what happens when a device build to move energy is applied on Galactus. 


Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed


That?s right, Galactus is stripped of his Power of Cosmic devolving him into a more human form in Galan. The Zohar Modifier is several ?infinite orders? above Reed?s apparatus.

Game set, and ......checkmate


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## Endless Mike (Mar 22, 2011)

Except that was a weakened Galactus. This match is FP Galactus.

Are those scans even canon anyway?


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## Fang (Mar 22, 2011)

I was going to laugh if he posted something from a one shot like Last Planet Standing.


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## Id (Mar 22, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> According to your logic Androids 17 and 18 from DBZ would beat Galactus because they don't run out of energy and he can


Fie holds quite a bit more than more, and ability than Galactus. 



Endless Mike said:


> Prove it. All I've seen about this ability is a way to alter causality which includes creating new universes with different parameters. That's really not comparable to a real multiversal ability.



The multiverse was created by the spills of the Wave Matter. Seriously I can fucking dumb this down any farther. 



Endless Mike said:


> And the UN shattered and remade the multiverse instantly.


And the UN had its energies manipulated by an Incomplete Infinity Gauntlet. Hey look at this neat device, its called the Zohar Modifier, it manipulates energy perfectly within the Multiverse. 



Endless Mike said:


> So can Galactus, or he can use the UN to just negate it all.


I am sure he does.


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## Id (Mar 22, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Except that was a weakened Galactus. This match is FP Galactus.
> 
> Are those scans even canon anyway?



That?s a weakened Galactus, and that?s a very limited energy moving device. 

Oh its soo canon. Fantastic Four v3.


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## Orion (Mar 22, 2011)

Your counter argument is that the Inf Gauntlet beat the UN....really bro.


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## Id (Mar 22, 2011)

Orion said:


> Your counter argument is that the Inf Gauntlet beat the UN....really bro.



Truly. Bro.


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## neodragzero (Mar 22, 2011)

X-Man said:


> And the UN had its energies manipulated by an Incomplete Infinity Gauntlet. Hey look at this neat device, its call the Zohar Modifer, it manipulates energy perfectly within the Multiverse.


The UN at the time being used by Quasar. He's no Reed Richard. He's no Galactus. The weapon was backfired on Quasar without the amount of destructive capacity these other characters have shown while using the same weapon.


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## Id (Mar 23, 2011)

neodragzero said:


> The UN at the time being used by Quasar. He's no Reed Richard. He's no Galactus. The weapon was backfired on Quasar without the amount of destructive capacity these other characters have shown while using the same weapon.


I am not focused on Quasar. I am focused on the UN’s energy.  


Regardless of who is using the UN, the actual *Nullification  Effect* was manipulated. I said this before; the bearer may vary, but the nullification effect remains constant.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 23, 2011)

X-Man said:


> Fie holds quite a bit more than more, and ability than Galactus.



Prove it



> The multiverse was created by the spills of the Wave Matter. Seriously I can fucking dumb this down any farther.



And what does this have to do with Fei's phenomenon alteration? Show me evidence that that can create and destroy multiverses.



> And the UN had its energies manipulated by an Incomplete Infinity Gauntlet. Hey look at this neat device, its call the Zohar Modifer, it manipulates energy perfectly within the Multiverse.



Except the IG is way above multiversal. In the Rune saga the LT stated that only a few of the gems were a threat to multiple multiverses.



8th post on this page

WE < UN < IG

Also I've gone over this before, but Quasar lacks the cosmic understanding and experience with the UN that Galactus does. You keep ignoring this.

Also the UN's power isn't energy. Despite what you like to think, it doesn't work by firing energy at a target. It just erases the target. It can do more too, like when it restored the multiverse without Abraxas and fixed all of the realities he had damaged. Manipulating energy won't save you from the UN.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 23, 2011)

X-Man said:


> That?s a weakened Galactus, and that?s a very limited energy moving device.
> 
> Oh its soo canon. Fantastic Four v3.



Unless some information on the mechanisms of the device is known it's an unquantifiable and pointless comparison. Reed has built multiversal technologies before. Give him a week of prep and he'll solo Xenogears.



X-Man said:


> I am not focused on Quasar. I am focused on the UN?s energy.
> 
> 
> Regardless of who is using the UN, the actual *Nullification  Effect* was manipulated. I said this before; the bearer may vary, but the nullification effect remains constant.



What you're not getting is that *the UN doesn't fire energy.* How can you erase things like Death and Time by firing energy at them? Cube Beings can already create, control, and manipulate infinite energy. The UN is something beyond that - it's a conceptual power that simply erases its target from existence, a very high level form of reality warping. I don't care if you can manipulate all of the energy in the multiverse, it won't save you from the UN.


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

It's like you say it, you show it, but then it's still 'prove it'

It's a very taxing kind of debating style.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 23, 2011)

You haven't proven the things I'm asking you to prove. Hell, you haven't even proven the part about infinite universes yet. All you've posted is something saying a computer was analyzing infinite potential possibilities. Not actual universes.


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

And it almost seems nonsensical to continue. Look at the Wiki edit Mike made.

His mind is already set.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 23, 2011)

Keollyn said:


> And it almost seems nonsensical to continue. Look at the Wiki edit Mike made.
> 
> His mind is already set.



I made that before you guys reopened the thread because I figured you had locked it due to not being able to respond to my side's arguments so I took that as a concession from you. I haven't had time to go to the wiki and change it again since it got unlocked.


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> You haven't proven the things I'm asking you to prove. Hell, you haven't even proven the part about infinite universes yet. All you've posted is something saying a computer was analyzing infinite potential possibilities. Not actual universes.





Keollyn said:


> *Spoiler*: _Zohar can connect to higher dimensional planes_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Really? Fucking really Mike?

It's like I can't be wrong when I say these things about you Mike.


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## Fang (Mar 23, 2011)

I'll comment that its kind of hilarious but also patronizing to our intelligence how someone will try to use a far weaker/or less impressive character handling the UN awfully but ignore Reed's or Galactus's showings.

Its like saying, hey, the SBR version of The World is weak and Diego is weaker then Dio, so let's use that as as an example that the real Dio and The World are weak like that as well.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 23, 2011)

All it says is it "connected to the higher dimensional space". That doesn't say anything about a multiverse or infinite universes.


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

Those are defined as universes in Xenogears. PW, game, source--all treat them as universes.

Different wording doesn't make it any different.


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

It's a never ending stream of denial, coupled with more 'lol, no'

By the same people too.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 23, 2011)

Keollyn said:


> Those are defined as universes in Xenogears. PW, game, source--all treat them as universes.
> 
> Different wording doesn't make it any different.



You mean dimensions? Sure, I'd buy that. After all, dimensions in Tenchi Muyo! also mean universes.

Problem is, that quote only mentions one dimension.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 23, 2011)

Keollyn said:


> It's a never ending stream of denial, coupled with more 'lol, no'
> 
> By the same people too.



Despite all of your whining, you have yet to show me a scan/quote that states that Fei is above infinite universes. All you have is something talking about "infinite potential possibilities" - there are infinite _possibilities_ in just one universe.

In fact, both quotes from you and scans from Id have stated that the WE exists inside *a* (singular) dimension.


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## Big Bοss (Mar 23, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Now for your argument of this is G Vs Fei, not G vs WE:





> The sum of the WE's power resides in Fei, they're pretty much completely intertwined with each other.



Scans:


Link removed

"My power into you"
"I need the strenght that was attributed to you"

Proof that Fei has the power of the WE.



> "rewriting the future" doesn't mean shit to a being beyond the limits of time and space. In order to block the UN you would need more power than Multi - Eternity, which is many many levels above infinity.





			
				Once again Me said:
			
		

> Now apart from this is the fact that the WE can *shift and manipulate trought infinite universes instantly*, meaning that *while Fei is fighting the WE is rewriting the future to the one in which Fei wins and this is the part in which even if the probability of that outcome was originally zero (outcome that doesn't exist) comes into play, this shit isn't getting lucky, this is PAS creating the universe/reality/future in which Fei beats his enemy.
> 
> That is why lambda said that the UN won't work because the WE has the power to negate it, now tell me how many reality warpers can do that? I bet LONGSHOT can do it amiright?
> *


*

I love how you turn PAS into only "rewriting the future" when we clearly explained that what PAS does is create and shift trough infinite universes backed up by an infinite source of energy (that can create universes with one drop), to the point it can create an entire new timeline/reality/universe to achieve Fei's desire, even if it is impossible.

Now prove Galactus can nullify this, prove Galactus can stop PAS from   changing the probability even if that outcome was originally zero (outcome that doesn't exist), and don't say he would eat it because no one is trowing shit at him, this happens instantly without Galactus even knowing it happen.





			Show the feat then and prove it was comparable to Multi-Eternity.
		
Click to expand...


The Zohar, you know the device that can create and manipulate infinite universes instantly and which is nothing to Fei.




			Which Galactus would just eat or nullify. Spawning new universes to change events will not help you against something that can wipe out and rewrite infinite+ universes instantly.
		
Click to expand...


I like how you added the + part to the infinite, now you are talking about the UN not Galactus, now is up to you to prove Galactus can use the UN against Fei and this is the part in which you will have to prove Galactus has the power to override someone who can create an entire different timeline/reality/universe in which he would negate Galactus action, and remember he does this instantly without Galactus knowing.




			Two things here.

1. Please show a scan, clip, or evidence that he has the full power of the WE.

2. If he needed that full power to destroy the Zohar, that means Zohar isn't as weak relatively as you were making it out to be.
		
Click to expand...



Link removed

That is what we have been saying all this thread if the Zohar being the powerful it is wasn't able to dry the WE what makes you think Galactus can? 

Galactus feat:



			
				You said:
			
		


			You know Galactus fought a guy called Hyperstorm who had an infinite source of energy that he could draw on do do anything he wanted. Galactus fed on him like one of Willy Wonka's neverending gobstoppers.

Hell, it was implied that Galactus even finished consuming him, in other words the guy could draw on infinite power from hyperspace (which transcends any single universe, making it multiversal), and Galactus still sucked him dry and spit him out.
		
Click to expand...


The Zohar feat:










that reactor 'merged' or 'synchronized' with the wave existence in that higher dimension... ME.




The Zohar was already drawing infinite energy from the 4-dimensional universe and when that wasn't enough in his search for more energy (even whe he already have a source of infinite energy) it was able to syncronize with a being from a higher dimension who didn't have any shape or form and started to draw his energy and this being the WE to avoid a crisis since it was a shapless form of infinite energy even far greater than the one of the 4-dimensional universe in which the Zohar resided (and which was created by a mere drop of the WE) it had to materialize his form and enter into the Zohar.

So let's see we have your feat of Galactus letting Hyperstorm dry who had an infinite source of energy and I prove how the Zohar can draw infinite energy too, but the point in which the WE shows to be superior in this levels of infinite is that the Zohar who can draw infinite energy already wasn't able to suck dry a mere drop of the WE energy (remember this 4D universe is made of a mere drop of the WE) what it is impressive is that even then this infinite energy wasn't enough for the Zohar making it search for a greater source aka the WE.




			When I asked you "Who/What are the Path of Sephirot, the 4th Dimension, Deus, Zohar, etc. and how do they relate to Fei and the WE" you refused to answer and just claimed I was dismissing your arguments. You are the only one being hypocritical here.
		
Click to expand...


Path of Sephirot:

This is Fei about to enter the PoS



And this is the PoS







The path of sephirot it what connects the 4D universe with the higher dimension in where the WE dwells and that path is filled with wave energy (remember the energy that with one drop can create universes) 

Btw you also have the explanation of how one drop created everything and by inadvertence.

You already know what the 4D is, as well as the Zohar and Deus.




			Keyword there is "potential". As in, not actual. That just implies infinite processing power, which is nice, but not actually manipulating infinite universes like you were claiming
		
Click to expand...






Already prove how the Zohar can manipulate infinite+ energy now with this scans it proves how by manipulating that energy it creates infinite universes by starting with the big bang and then shifts at will through them till it finds the desire outcome, and all fo this happens instantly.

And the WE is way above the Zohar.




			Actually he has a very good point. How strong is Fei's mind? His soul? Galactus can manipulate both of them. If he has no or insufficient telepathic defenses he could get mindraped.
		
Click to expand...




Fei had 3 personalities before making perfect contact, and one of the things he needed was to have a strong mind and will to be able to control all the power of the WE which happened at the end when he made perfect contact and his 3 personalities merged in one.

So I say is pretty fucking strong since having a strong mind power is a must to able to use the power of the WE a multiversal being.*


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

By the same people too.


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## Id (Mar 23, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Unless some information on the mechanisms of the device is known it's an unquantifiable and pointless comparison. Reed has built multiversal technologies before. Give him a week of prep and he'll solo Xenogears.


Heh this is a fucking joke. Its the same device used to swap Johnny, and Sue's powers only "bigger". The rest of your reply is just unneeded rambling. 



Endless Mike said:


> What you're not getting is that *the UN doesn't fire energy.* How can you erase things like Death and Time by firing energy at them? Cube Beings can already create, control, and manipulate infinite energy. The UN is something beyond that - it's a conceptual power that simply erases its target from existence, a very high level form of reality warping. I don't care if you can manipulate all of the energy in the multiverse, it won't save you from the UN.



I don’t care if you don’t think if its energy or not. The effects of the UN is portrayed as energy, besides if the Infinity Gauntlet could warp the shit out of the UN. So can Fie for its own ability to warp *ding dong* reality.


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

Which still doesn't amount to anything since Fei still has a feat that trumps G.

And this isn't a supposed feat, or would happen feat if 'such and such was that powerful'. It actually happened.

Nope, no need to powerscale Fei's feat.

G doesn't have that luxury, does he?


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## neodragzero (Mar 23, 2011)

X-Man said:


> I am not focused on Quasar. I am focused on the UN’s energy.
> 
> 
> Regardless of who is using the UN, the actual *Nullification  Effect* was manipulated. I said this before; the bearer may vary, but the nullification effect remains constant.



You can't simply treat who is using it as a regardless when it still failed to create the effect upon Quasar that it did upon multiverses to high enough level to piss off guy who organize the entire omniverse. Same weapon but a different scale effect. Since it's the same weapon but a different user of said weapon, it easily suggest it actually depends on the user. Heck, X-Man, you know full well that any average joe attempting to use it is supposed to annihilate himself rather than successfully use. Galactus and Reed just happen to surpass Quasar in the usage of said weapon.

There's a variation in overall scale in effect when Quasar failed to produce what Galactus did or he would of been utterly annihilated from existence permanently.


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## Id (Mar 23, 2011)

neodragzero said:


> You can't simply treat who is using it as a regardless when it still failed to create the effect upon Quasar that it did upon multiverses to high enough level to piss off guy who organize the entire omniverse. Same weapon but a different scale effect. Since it's the same weapon but a different user of said weapon, it easily suggest it actually depends on the user. Heck, X-Man, you know full well that any average joe attempting to use it is supposed to annihilate himself rather than successfully use. Galactus and Reed just happen to surpass Quasar in the usage of said weapon.
> 
> There's a variation in overall scale in effect when Quasar failed to produce what Galactus did or he would of been utterly annihilated from existence permanently.



You cant say, Quasar failed at his task for that matter simply because it did not meet the desired effect. Evidence points out that Magus, took control of the energy after it was fired.


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

Grαhf said:


> Scans:
> 
> 
> Link removed
> ...



This won't be enough, I promise you that.


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## Big Bοss (Mar 23, 2011)

If he continues with the same shit I am done here.


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

Victory through attrition. Sound strategy.


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## Big Bοss (Mar 23, 2011)

My shit metter has a limit.


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## Big Bοss (Mar 23, 2011)

How about yours Keo?


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

Mine was reached first response


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## Endless Mike (Mar 23, 2011)

Grαhf said:


> Scans:
> 
> 
> Link removed
> ...



Thank you for finally providing relevant evidence. See, Keollyn, you should have done this instead of just bitching about me asking for it.

This does seem to imply that the WE gave a good portion of its power to Fei, but herein we have a conundrum:

WE states that it can't destroy Zohar and needs Fei's help to do so. If it gave most of its power to Fei, that would make sense, except for one thing: If WE's power is infinite or a higher level of infinity, then any fraction of its power would also be infinite. Therefore even if it gave infinite power to Fei it would still have infinite power left, meaning that it would still be able to defeat Zohar effortlessly.



> I love how you turn PAS into only "rewriting the future" when we clearly explained that what PAS does is create and shift trough infinite universes backed up by an infinite source of energy (that can create universes with one drop), to the point it can create an entire new timeline/reality/universe to achieve Fei's desire, even if it is impossible.



That may be a gamebreaker against beings that are confined to a single universe, but Galactus isn't.



> Now prove Galactus can nullify this, prove Galactus can stop PAS from   changing the probability even if that outcome was originally zero (outcome that doesn't exist), and don't say he would eat it because no one is trowing shit at him, this happens instantly without Galactus even knowing it happen.



Galactus transcends time and space. If a new universe was created around him he would know, and just devour that universe or shift to another one. And the UN could wipe all of the universes out at once.

Here's an apt analogy: Say that Fei is a guy who is searching through a warehouse to find the right gun to shoot Galactus with. Galactus just demolishes the warehouse. 



> The Zohar, you know the device that can create and manipulate infinite universes instantly and which is nothing to Fei.



I still haven't seen evidence of this.



> I like how you added the + part to the infinite, now you are talking about the UN not Galactus, now is up to you to prove Galactus can use the UN against Fei and this is the part in which you will have to prove Galactus has the power to override someone who can create an entire different timeline/reality/universe in which he would negate Galactus action, and remember he does this instantly without Galactus knowing.



How would Galactus not know? He is cosmically aware.



> *snip*



You posted those already



> That is what we have been saying all this thread if the Zohar being the powerful it is wasn't able to dry the WE what makes you think Galactus can?



If Galactus can't drain the energy of the WE he'll just feed on it for all eternity. And if he can't do that he'll use the UN on it.



> Galactus feat:
> 
> 
> The Zohar feat:



Id posted this already. There's really not anything relevant or impressive in that scan.



>







that reactor 'merged' or 'synchronized' with the wave existence in that higher dimension... ME.

[/quote]

Yes, yes, I've seen this. Where does it say shit about infinite universes? It says "potential phenomenon". A potential is not the same as a universe, it's just an event which could possibly happen.



> The Zohar was already drawing infinite energy from the 4-dimensional universe and when that wasn't enough in his search for more energy (even whe he already have a source of infinite energy) it was able to syncronize with a being from a higher dimension who didn't have any shape or form and started to draw his energy and this being the WE to avoid a crisis since it was a shapless form of infinite energy even far greater than the one of the 4-dimensional universe in which the Zohar resided (and which was created by a mere drop of the WE) it had to materialize his form and enter into the Zohar.



So it has multiple levels of infinity. Cool. So does Galactus.



> So let's see we have your feat of Galactus letting Hyperstorm dry who had an infinite source of energy and I prove how the Zohar can draw infinite energy too, but the point in which the WE shows to be superior in this levels of infinite is that the Zohar who can draw infinite energy already wasn't able to suck dry a mere drop of the WE energy (remember this 4D universe is made of a mere drop of the WE) what it is impressive is that even then this infinite energy wasn't enough for the Zohar making it search for a greater source aka the WE.



Fine. Thank you for explaining, this is much clearer than Keollyn's explanations.

Now consider this: Cube Beings can create, control, and manipulate infinite energy. They are nothing to Celestials. Galactus is at least on par with Celestials, and the UN >>>>>> Celestials.

So if Zohar = Cube Beings, then WE = Celestials, then Galactus + UN > WE.



> Path of Sephirot:
> 
> This is Fei about to enter the PoS
> 
> ...



Thank you. Finally, a clear explanation.



> Btw you also have the explanation of how one drop created everything and by inadvertence.



No one has actually posted that.



> Already prove how the Zohar can manipulate infinite+ energy now with this scans it proves how by manipulating that energy it creates infinite universes by starting with the big bang and then shifts at will through them till it finds the desire outcome, and all fo this happens instantly.



It proves no such thing. It says it creates universes by shifting to different possibilities, but it is limited by the possibilities in the current universe that started at the Big Bang. It sounds to me that it can reconfigure/warp the current universe into an infinite number of different possibilities, instead of actually creating infinite universes that coexists with one another. This is different from Multi-Eternity, who is composed of infinite universes that all coexist so you can travel from one to another, etc. In other words, if there was a universe with different physical laws and conditions then Zohar would be unable to manipulate it because its physics would not be a possibility in its own universe after the Big Bang. The 616 multiverse is composed of universes that often have radically different laws of physics and dimensions.



> Fei had 3 personalities before making perfect contact, and one of the things he needed was to have a strong mind and will to be able to control all the power of the WE which happened at the end when he made perfect contact and his 3 personalities merged in one.
> 
> So I say is pretty fucking strong since having a strong mind power is a must to able to use the power of the WE a multiversal being.



But can you quantify that? How strong is it compared to Galactus who can rewrite minds and souls on a level that Xavier couldn't even dream of?



X-Man said:


> Heh this is a fucking joke. Its the same device used to swap Johnny, and Sue's powers only "bigger".



So do you know its mechanism? Doom has a device that steals power from Cosmic Beings, even PR Beyonder.



> I don?t care if you don?t think if its energy or not. The effects of the UN is portrayed as energy



"Portrayed as energy"? WTF does that mean? Are you judging solely by art style? That's the same thing DBZtards do when they say DBZ characters are the fastest ever because they leave blurry lines and afterimages.



> besides if Infinity Gauntlet could warp the shit out of the UN. So can Fie for its own ability to warp *ding dong* reality.



The IG can warp a lot more than energy. And the IG's reality warping is way above Fei's. If you disagree, prove otherwise.


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## Id (Mar 23, 2011)

How do I go about in proving a negative?


Guys?


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

It has begun. Let's see how tobiah will respond.

Or not respond. Shit meter is peaking afterall.



X-Man said:


> How do I go about in proving a negative?
> 
> 
> Guys?



You're gonna need an omnipotent for that.


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## neodragzero (Mar 23, 2011)

X-Man said:


> You cant say, Quasar failed at his task for that matter simply because it did not meet the desired effect. Evidence points out that Magus, took control of the energy after it was fired.



Evidence points out that Magus redirected the UN's attack upon Quasar. Magus himself explained that he turned its power back upon the user. Quasar quite simply failed to produce what Reed and Galactus produced with the same weapon when Quasar in no way compares to the level of Abraxas nor what Galactus affected enough to be noticed by the guys who organize the omniverse. Quasar survived being hit by the UN he himself was using. It just makes more sense that Quasar wasn't capable of creating the level of scale effect that the two other characters did or he quite simply would be gone permanently.

It all the more makes sense when it's still a given you have been of a certain level to use the thing with any success at all much less the full magnitude Reed and Galactus performed with their respective intellects (or in the case for Galactus the added bonus of the weapon being apart of him to the point of yanking it easily away from Abraxas grasp).


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## Kurou (Mar 23, 2011)

Keollyn said:


> You're gonna need an omnipotent for that.





You rang        ?


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## Endless Mike (Mar 23, 2011)

Keollyn said:


> Which still doesn't amount to anything since Fei still has a feat that trumps G.



Which is?



> And this isn't a supposed feat, or would happen feat if 'such and such was that powerful'. It actually happened.
> 
> Nope, no need to powerscale Fei's feat.
> 
> G doesn't have that luxury, does he?



The UN feat with Abraxas actually happened. And that's all that's needed here.



X-Man said:


> You cant say, Quasar failed at his task for that matter simply because it did not meet the desired effect. Evidence points out that Magus, took control of the energy after it was fired.



And we're saying that

A. If it was Galactus using it he may not have been able to do that

B. Even if he could, the IG is still greater than anything shown for Xenogears. So just because the UN < IG doesn't mean that Xenogears > UN. That's like saying that Goku can beat Odin because Odin lost to the Celestials.


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

And it's hilarious you say I should have done that from the start when I've done that in thousands upon thousands of other threads that we've partaked of this kind.

At least remember that much. It's the sole factor to the guys power that is being debated EVERYTIME.


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## Big Bοss (Mar 23, 2011)

Well respond later I have to finish those reports for work.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 23, 2011)

X-Man said:


> How do I go about in proving a negative?
> 
> 
> Guys?



Sorry, I phrased that poorly. Prove Fei can match the IG. Keep in mind that only a few gems were threats to the omniverse. Even Keollyn admitted that Fei and the WE are nowhere near omniversal.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 23, 2011)

Keollyn said:


> And it's hilarious you say I should have done that from the start when I've done that in thousands upon thousands of other threads that we've partaked of this kind.



Excuse me for not looking through thousands of threads to find your scans. The least you could have done is given a link to said threads.


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

So I'll repeat it, and log it, save it, bookmark it. Whatever.

Fei is FUNCTIONALLY HUMAN WITHOUT THE WAVE EXISTENCE.

No other Fei exist. None. What. So. Ever.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 23, 2011)

Okay, and Juggernaut is functionally human without Cyttorak. Doesn't mean he has all of Cyttorak's power. Refer to my argument against Grahf above.


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

And I already explained this in this very thread about that very thing.

Rinse and repeat.


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## Id (Mar 23, 2011)

Grαhf said:


> If he continues with the same shit I am done here.





Keollyn said:


> Victory through attrition. Sound strategy.



Normally you take a break, and not get drawn into a recycling argument. 

But we've already reached that point.

Soo break time.


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

Here, let me reference it (again). You appear to like things told to you more than a dozen times, so...



Keollyn said:


> I get what you're implying, and yes, at one point Fei only had the power of the WE, but wasn't as powerful.
> 
> But that was the whole point of the second contact. To get his full rights. The power of the WE, the only power that could destroy the Zohar.
> 
> And he did.



Second contact gave him full access. Similar to how Deus finally merging with the Zohar gave him full throughput.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 23, 2011)

Yeah, I read that. Yet you have not provided the evidence for that in the form of scans/screencaps.


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

X-Man said:


> Normally you take a break, and not get drawn into a recycling argument.
> 
> But we've already reached that point.
> 
> Soo break time.



My next break is likely my last.


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Yeah, I read that. Yet you have not provided the evidence for that in the form of scans/screencaps.



Mike most of the time you didn't post any scans/screencaps, but did I not take your word? (and a lot of them having shit to do with G too)

Jesus, it's like you somehow feel there's no equality in debating here. You can do it, but I can't.

It's not like it was a situation of possible fabrication. If he didn't have the WE power, he could not, in no way shape or form, destroy Zohar.

Which I did post feat of in that _very_ post.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 23, 2011)

You know I actually repped Grahf for providing a lot of the answers and evidence I was asking for. If you would stop playing the victim for a bit and act like I'm ignoring you when in fact you have not given me the evidence I asked for this debate would be more civil.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong here, but based on the information Grahf provided it seems like the Zohar's ability works like this:

It can materialize any possibility that could occur in the main universe after the Big Bang. There are infinite possibilities, but still it is limited by the physics of the main universe, in other words it can't manifest a possibility that defies the laws of reality. So to beat it, all you need is access to physics from beyond the universe, where the laws of reality are different. That's how Fei beat it.

Galactus is not limited to the physics of one universe either though, so that does not mean Fei's power will necessarily work on him.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 23, 2011)

Keollyn said:


> Mike most of the time you didn't post any scans/screencaps, but did I not take your word? (and a lot of them having shit to do with G too)



I posted a fuckton of scans.



> Jesus, it's like you somehow feel there's no equality in debating here. You can do it, but I can't.
> 
> It's not like it was a situation of possible fabrication. If he didn't have the WE power, he could not, in no way shape or form, destroy Zohar.
> 
> Which I did post feat of in that _very_ post.



So he needed all of the WE's power to defeat Zohar? But I thought Zohar was way below the WE?

If it required all of the WE's power to beat, then Zohar must not be that far below it.


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

Again you''re projecting. No victim card being dealt here. More annoyance at the overabundance of feign ignorance, but damn if I feel like such.

Oh and that's not how Fei destroyed it. 

Regardless, you're still limiting Fei to Zohar's level. WE is the factor, Zohar is just unneeded fluff.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 23, 2011)

Keollyn said:


> Again you''re projecting. No victim card being dealt here. More annoyance at the overabundance of feign ignorance, but I damn if I feel like such.
> 
> Oh and that's not how Fei destroyed it.
> 
> Regardless, you're still limiting Fei to Zohar's level. WE is the factor, Zohar is just unneeded fluff.



Yet apparently Fei needed all of WE's power to destroy Zohar...

EDIT: Also I find it ironic that you expect me to read a bunch of past threads for stuff you posted but you didn't even spend the effort to read the first few pages of this thread.

Anyway I'm going to bed, we can continue this at a later date.


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> I posted a fuckton of scans.



I never said you didn't post any. I said at times you didn't for certain statements. Did I ask you to post scans for every single statement/claim you made?



> So he needed all of the WE's power to defeat Zohar? But I thought Zohar was way below the WE?
> 
> If it required all of the WE's power to beat, then Zohar must not be that far below it.



He had full usage of the WE power, but he wasn't immediately using its full power. I already said that Fei's power of the WE grows with increased mental growth. I told you we didn't see Fei's full potential in the game.

For all we know, he used a fraction of his newfound powers to destroy Zohar. 

It's pretty clear that Zohar wasn't destroyed with that great amount of that power given what Fei did to Uroborus and the dimension afterward.


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## Endless Mike (Mar 23, 2011)

Heh, just edited my post to say goodnight as you were responding. Funny coincidence. Anyway:



Keollyn said:


> I never said you didn't post any. I said at times you didn't for certain statements. Did I ask you to post scans for every single statement/claim you made?



No, but if you did I would have done so.



> He had full usage of the WE power, but he wasn't immediately using its full power. I already said that Fei's power of the WE grows with increased mental growth. For all we know, he used a fraction of his newfound powers to destroy Zohar.
> 
> It's pretty clear that Zohar wasn't destroyed with that great amount of that power given what he did to Uroborus and the dimension afterward.



But you said in order to defeat Zohar he needed WE to give him its full power. If he could have done it with only a fraction of its power, then why did he need to receive all of it?

As for Zohar being destroyed, I'm just going on what you said earlier.

Now goodnight.


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## Keollyn (Mar 23, 2011)

No, the WE gave him full access. You're thinking full output here.

He has the access to all of WE power. Does not necessarily mean he used it all at once on Zohar.


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## Heavenly King (Mar 23, 2011)

looks like i might join into this battle after i read up on Zohar,Fei and Deus


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## Shock Therapy (Mar 23, 2011)

A challenger has appeared! Choose your argument!


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## Matta Clatta (Mar 23, 2011)

So now were back to the same argument that using the UN is down to skill instead of power this time.
Also the way Quasar used the way UN against Magus isn't said and frankly doesn't really matter the important thing is the fact that its energies were manipulated. If someone has proof that Reed destroying and rewriting the Multiverse took more energy then Galactus beating Korvac please post it.

If anything Galactus can lose possession of the UN just like Abraxas lost possession of it since that did in fact happen in the story.


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## Vault (Mar 23, 2011)

The UN works through intelligence as well iirc, to answer your Reed Richards argument.


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## neodragzero (Mar 23, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> So now were back to the same argument that using the UN is down to skill instead of power this time.
> *Also the way Quasar used the way UN against Magus isn't said* and frankly doesn't really matter the important thing is the fact that its energies were manipulated.




It's described in the scene itself that with considerable effort he focused upon targeting Magnus only with Magnus explaining he simply redirected the UN attack upon Quasar himself.

 Quasar isn't coming back from a multiversal negation. Magnus has no reason to lower the power of said attack. He simply said that he redirected it upon Quasar with absolutely no goofy suggestion he has a reason to weaken the effect upon Quasar.


> If someone has proof that Reed destroying and rewriting the Multiverse took more energy then Galactus beating Korvac please post it.


Took more energy? Your strawman makes no sense and is utterly meaningless. There's simply the fact that both characters have affected multiverses with their usage of the UN while Quasar failed to produce the same scale he shouldn't possibly be able to escape from when he's a microbe compared to Abraxas and the amount of effect Galactus committed to piss of the guys who organize the omniverse. No one here is even insinuating a necessary greater amount of energy but the matter of how the intellect of Reed and Galactus is worlds beyond that of Quasar. Using the UN to a certain extent requires a certain level of intellect as already explained in terms of who can and can not hope to even make it work successfully without dying.


> If anything Galactus can lose possession of the UN just like Abraxas lost possession of it *since that did in fact happen in the story*.


Abraxas had the thing supernaturally yanked out of his hands. When exactly has anyone literally yanked the UN out of Galactus' grasp? It was explained that this only happened because the thing is actually apart of Galactus.


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## Superbot400 (Mar 23, 2011)

> That?s right, Galactus is stripped of his Power of Cosmic devolving him into a more human form in Galan. The Zohar Modifier is several ?infinite orders? above Reed?s apparatus.


Galan can not be separated by Power Cosmic... for good .  All Reed Richard did was remove the fusion of Galactus. Galactus's entity itself was just searching the universe for it's Human Host.


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## Big Bοss (Mar 23, 2011)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> WE states that it can't destroy Zohar and needs Fei's help to do so. If it gave most of its power to Fei, that would make sense, except for one thing: If WE's power is infinite or a higher level of infinity, then any fraction of its power would also be infinite. Therefore even if it gave infinite power to Fei it would still have infinite power left, meaning that it would still be able to defeat Zohar effortlessly.



Well seems like I will have to explain all the game to you. 

The contact is the person that has the power of the WE and until he can make perfect contact he would reincarnate over and over again with the ability to keep all of his memories, now the one we know as *Grahf* was the previous contact *Lacan*, who before making contact already had tremendous power to the point he could defeat 4 Omnigears (Robots capable of destroying continents due to having a direct connection to the Zohar and thus having an infinite source of energy and output) by himself and note how he didn't know he was the contact and didn't know he had that power (and if you haven't understand it means Lacan already had access to infinite energy) he was just using a fraction of it by inadvertence, now due to some tragic incidents in his life in which his soulmate died *(Sophia)* he searched for power and in this search he found the Zohar in where the WE was and proceeded to make contact, but this was an imperfect one because *Sophia* was dead and she was needed to be able to make perfect contact, the result of this imperfect contact was the birth of *Grahf* a being who only desire was to destroy everything and even when he gained even more power with this contact (he already had access to infinite energy, but now he has even more) to the point he destroyed practically all of the world reducing the population IIRC to 1% he couldn't gain full access to the WE power because it was an imperfect contact, so not only he couldn't gain the power to destroy the Zohar, but he lost the rights of the contact at that moment too, the right to wield the power of the WE which now were of Fei the new reincarnation of the contact.


Now *Grahf* who wanted to have all of the power of the WE (even when he already had power beyond infinite) wanted to merge with Fei and recover the rights of the contact, so in order to do that he kidnaps him and when he tries to do that Fei (who was only a child, but already had access to infinite energy)) releases a bit of power and kills his mother which makes him snap and split his personality, *Grahf* takes advantage of this and trains him to be an assassin like him and this is the one we know as Id, someone who doesn't care about anything, but to fight powerful people and destroy everything. 

Now Id who was the destructive persona of Fei was able to use a fuckton of power, power that matched and even surpassed *Grahf* who made and imperfect contact already and had more power than normal, but even then he couldn't use the full power of the WE because of having a weak mind and not making contact. 

This is what Keo means when he says the WE gave him full access that only happens when you make perfect contact, *Grahf* and *Id* already had infinite energy and output, but that wasn't enough to destroy the zohar, they needed a higher level of power and gaining full access gave him the chance to use it, which doesn't mean he used all of the power of the WE on the Zohar, this proves the level of infinity of the WE is far greater than anything. 

Now another thing that we know why he didn't use all of the power of the WE on the Zohar was because he defeated Uroboros efforstly a multiversal being made and powered entirely by wave energy, somenthing beyond the Zohar.




> That may be a gamebreaker against beings that are confined to a single universe, but Galactus isn't.



Neither is the WE who is a shapeless form who exists in a higher dimension, who creates and controls time/space and which one drop of energy can createuniverses 



> Galactus transcends time and space. If a new universe was created around him he would know, and just devour that universe or shift to another one. And the UN could wipe all of the universes out at once.
> 
> Here's an apt analogy: Say that Fei is a guy who is searching through a warehouse to find the right gun to shoot Galactus with. Galactus just demolishes the warehouse.



The WE create and controls time/space, and is source of energy that has multiple levels of infinite, now your analogy doesn't work because this isn't just one warehouse, this is infinite warehouses in multiple levels of infinite shifting instantly without him knowing, Galactus by himself can't stop this, now like I said prove he can use the UN before Fei negates him from doing it. 



> How would Galactus not know? He is cosmically aware.



Ok, now prove he has the power to override someone who can create an entire different timeline/reality/universe in which he would negate Galactus action, and remember it isn't just one universe, they are infinite timeline/reality/universe in multiple levels of infinite. 



> If Galactus can't drain the energy of the WE he'll just feed on it for all eternity. And if he can't do that he'll use the UN on it.



We already prove he can't, now you will have to prove he can use the UN when his action is getting negated by PAS.




> It proves no such thing. It says it creates universes by shifting to different possibilities, but it is limited by the possibilities in the current universe that started at the Big Bang. It sounds to me that it can reconfigure/warp the current universe into an infinite number of different possibilities, instead of actually creating infinite universes that coexists with one another. This is different from Multi-Eternity, who is composed of infinite universes that all coexist so you can travel from one to another, etc. In other words, if there was a universe with different physical laws and conditions then Zohar would be unable to manipulate it because its physics would not be a possibility in its own universe after the Big Bang. The 616 multiverse is composed of universes that often have radically different laws of physics and dimensions.





When the desire event isn't in the current universe, it creates another one and if in that universe it isn't either, it creates another one, and it does this infinitely until he finds the desire event and all of this happens instantly.

Here a picture to understand things better:



*P.S I apologize for all the grammar errors, English isn't my first lenguage.*


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## Endless Mike (Mar 24, 2011)

Okay, *cracks knuckles*, once more unto the breach.



Keollyn said:


> No, the WE gave him full access. You're thinking full output here.
> 
> He has the access to all of WE power. Does not necessarily mean he used it all at once on Zohar.



But the screencaps you posted had the WE say it needed to give Fei its full power to defeat Zohar.



Matta Clatta said:


> So now were back to the same argument that using the UN is down to skill instead of power this time.
> Also the way Quasar used the way UN against Magus isn't said and frankly doesn't really matter the important thing is the fact that its energies were manipulated. If someone has proof that Reed destroying and rewriting the Multiverse took more energy then Galactus beating Korvac please post it.
> 
> If anything Galactus can lose possession of the UN just like Abraxas lost possession of it since that did in fact happen in the story.



Yet Galactus can summon it to himself at will. Again, the IG is above the UN. Claiming that since A lost to B, A will also lose to C is a fallacy unless you can establish that C is comparable to B in power and ability. I posted evidence that only a few of the infinity gems were a threat to the omniverse, and Keollyn admitted earlier that Fei was nowhere near omniversal. No one has even attempted to address this.



Grαhf said:


> Well seems like I will have to explain all the game to you.
> 
> The contact is the person that has the power of the WE and until he can make perfect contact he would reincarnate over and over again with the ability to keep all of his memories, now the one we know as *Grahf* was the previous contact *Lacan*, who before making contact already had tremendous power to the point he could defeat 4 Omnigears (Robots capable of destroying continents due to having a direct connection to the Zohar and thus having an infinite source of energy and output)



Okay wait. Infinite energy source and output only = destroying continents? That makes no sense at all.



> by himself and note how he didn't know he was the contact and didn't know he had that power (and if you haven't understand it means Lacan already had access to infinite energy) he was just using a fraction of it by inadvertence, now due to some tragic incidents in his life in which his soulmate died *(Sophia)* he searched for power and in this search he found the Zohar in where the WE was and proceeded to make contact, but this was an imperfect one because *Sophia* was dead and she was needed to be able to make perfect contact, the result of this imperfect contact was the birth of *Grahf* a being who only desire was to destroy everything and even when he gained even more power with this contact (he already had access to infinite energy, but now he has even more) to the point he destroyed practically all of the world reducing the population IIRC to 1%



So he has beyond infinite energy but he can only wipe out 99% of the earth's population? I'm beginning to think this infinite stuff is all hyperbole as the feats simply don't match up. When Marvel characters play with infinite energy they're doing stuff like Beyonder, Molecule Man, and Kubik did in those scans I posted. Apparently when Xenogears characters throw it around the best they can do is continent - bust and almost life wipe. Feats take precedence over statements and claims, and in the feats department, you're not looking very good.



> he couldn't gain full access to the WE power because it was an imperfect contact, so not only he couldn't gain the power to destroy the Zohar, but he lost the rights of the contact at that moment too, the right to wield the power of the WE which now were of Fei the new reincarnation of the contact.
> 
> 
> Now *Grahf* who wanted to have all of the power of the WE (even when he already had power beyond infinite) wanted to merge with Fei and recover the rights of the contact, so in order to do that he kidnaps him and when he tries to do that Fei (who was only a child, but already had access to infinite energy)) releases a bit of power and kills his mother which makes him snap and split his personality, *Grahf* takes advantage of this and trains him to be an assassin like him and this is the one we know as Id, someone who doesn't care about anything, but to fight powerful people and destroy everything.
> ...



That still doesn't explain why the WE itself stated that it needed Fei's help to destroy Zohar.

Nanoha profile



> Now another thing that we know why he didn't use all of the power of the WE on the Zohar was because he defeated Uroboros efforstly a multiversal being made and powered entirely by wave energy, somenthing beyond the Zohar.



Why did WE need Fei's help to defeat Zohar then?



> Neither is the WE who is a shapeless form who exists in a higher dimension, who creates and controls time/space and which one drop of energy can createuniverses



Again, you refer to "one dimension". If it only exists in one dimension then that's no trouble for Galactus, as he transcends any single dimension.



> The WE create and controls time/space, and is source of energy that has multiple levels of infinite, now your analogy doesn't work because this isn't just one warehouse, this is infinite warehouses in multiple levels of infinite shifting instantly without him knowing, Galactus by himself can't stop this, now like I said prove he can use the UN before Fei negates him from doing it.



The UN is a multiversal artifact, it transcends time and space and can annihilate both. Clamoring about "not having time" is pointless when you're talking about something that can destroy/negate time. Galactus himself is also beyond time and doesn't perceive or experience it in a linear fashion like lesser beings do. 



> Ok, now prove he has the power to override someone who can create an entire different timeline/reality/universe in which he would negate Galactus action, and remember it isn't just one universe, they are infinite timeline/reality/universe in multiple levels of infinite.



Multi-Eternity and Abraxas ring a bell? They should, I've just been explaining about them throughout this entire thread.

Cube Beings = infinite power
Cube Beings are as nothing to Celestials. Celestials are multiple levels of infinity beyond Cube Beings, as explained by Kubik.
Eternity created the Celestials by meditating. There are at least billions of Celestials.
Multi - Eternity = infinite+ Eternities.
UN instantly wiped out and recreated Multi-Eternity.

So being conservative here, we can say that Cube Beings = Infinity, Celestials = Aleph 2 (interpreting "multiple levels" to be 2), Eternity = Aleph 3, Multi - Eternity = Aleph 4, and the UN = Aleph 5.

Now, going by your explanation (and being liberal, considering most of the stuff you mentioned below Zohar gets its power from Zohar so it's really the same power, just channeled through a less efficient and versatile system), immature Contact = Infinity. Zohar = Aleph 1. Uroborus = Aleph 2. WE = Aleph 3. Meaning the UN is higher. UN wins.



Also you're contradicting yourself.

First you say "an", meaning singular, then you say infinite. If Fei creates a new universe around Galactus, Galactus transcends it. If he creates infinite new universes around Galactus, Galactus still is connected to other universes outside of that infinite set. So Fei would have to wipe out all of the original universes first.



> We already prove he can't, now you will have to prove he can use the UN when his action is getting negated by PAS.



No, you have to prove PAS has the ability to affect a being of that calibre. GER from JJBA can negate actions, but claiming it can negate the actions of cosmic beings that transcend normal reality is a no - limits fallacy.

Abraxas could not negate the UN, and he was effortlessly destroying universes and warping reality. The only thing ever shown to stop the UN like you're suggesting is the IG, and I already explained how it's way beyond the power scale your side has.



> When the desire event isn't in the current universe, it creates another one and if in that universe it isn't either, it creates another one, and it does this infinitely until he finds the desire event and all of this happens instantly.



Yeah, I get that, but the thing is, you're not going to find anything in any universe that can stop the UN unless you can find something on par with the IG, which simply doesn't exist in Xenogears.

And terms like "instantly" are kind of meaningless when it comes to the destruction of all time and space. Galactus can even do things faster than instantly due to manipulating time, like making sure Fei was never even born in the first place.

Here a picture to understand things better:



> That text is way too small to read.
> 
> *P.S I apologize for all the grammar errors, English isn't my first lenguage.*



No need to apologize, you're no Unknown


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## Bender (Mar 24, 2011)

Have we reached a conclusion yet?


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## Endless Mike (Mar 24, 2011)

Bender said:


> Have we reached a conclusion yet?



What do you think?


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## Bender (Mar 24, 2011)

^



So can we close this thread now? 

Mike won you guys.


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## Keollyn (Mar 24, 2011)

Mike won what? Bender go back in your corner.


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## Bender (Mar 24, 2011)

Keollyn said:


> Mike won what? Bender go back in your corner.



The debate didn't he?


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## Endless Mike (Mar 25, 2011)

Please stop posting


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## Keollyn (Mar 25, 2011)

No one conceded Bender. Not everyone can or will respond immediately.


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## Heavenly King (Mar 25, 2011)

can't galactus go back to fei's time line and kill him before he get's this power?


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## Id (Mar 25, 2011)

Heavenly King said:


> can't galactus go back to fei's time line and kill him before he get's this power?



Cant Fie go back in time, and kill Galan before he becomes Galactus?


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## Vault (Mar 25, 2011)

Galan existed before the Big bang thus before time and all the nonsense, right?


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## Heavenly King (Mar 25, 2011)

X-Man said:


> Cant Fie go back in time, and kill Galan before he becomes Galactus?



looks like fei is a dead if he doesn't have universe awareness


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