# Doctor Doom vs  Doctor Who Verse



## tonpa (Nov 11, 2011)

Doom gets on week prep and has vast knowledge of the doctor and his verse. His goal is to destroy being in the verse. How far does he go?


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## willyvereb (Nov 11, 2011)

Week prep? LoL, that won't be nearly enough for Doom to solo the Whoverse.
People tend to forget how long it took for Doom to steal the Beyonder's powers.


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## NeilBlack (Nov 11, 2011)

I don't know much about Doctor Doom, but going by his character profile the Whoniverse wins easily.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 11, 2011)

Doom gets crushed like an ant.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Nov 11, 2011)

Is Scarlet Witch powers Doom from the most recent Children's Crusade here?


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## Es (Nov 11, 2011)

**


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 11, 2011)

^

Why can i see this happening as a canon to both series cartoon?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 11, 2011)

if Doom starts off with his MOD level or Wandas powers then he can potentially extend his prep time enough to give him a chance at taking this


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Nov 11, 2011)

willyvereb said:


> Week prep? LoL, that won't be nearly enough for Doom to solo the Whoverse.
> People tend to forget how long it took for Doom to steal the Beyonder's powers.



how long did it take? can't remember

doom first stole fp galactus powers with a machine built from bits of machines the beyonder provided


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## MrChubz (Nov 11, 2011)

I bet Doom could steal the reality gem from Tony Stark if he really needed to.


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## Havoc (Nov 12, 2011)

willyvereb said:


> Week prep? LoL, that won't be nearly enough for Doom to solo the Whoverse.
> People tend to forget how long it took for Doom to steal the Beyonder's powers.


It was a couple days...and that was while dealing with a bunch of other stuff, like fighting heroes and stealing Galactus' power.


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## Physics Man (Nov 12, 2011)

Doom can maybe steal the ultimate nullifier then use a Doom bot to wield the nullifier to destroy the Doctor who verse.


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## NeilBlack (Nov 12, 2011)

The ultimate nullifier? It's not like the doctor hasn't reversed universal erasure before.

EDIT:

And that was with half of the Whoniverse against him. With the entire Doctor Who universe on his side, countering the ultimate nullifier would be a cake-walk.


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## Physics Man (Nov 12, 2011)

The UN can destroy an entire multiverse on the scale of Marvel nothing in Doctor Who can be compared to that.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 12, 2011)

Doctor Who's multiverse is suggested to be infinite as well.


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## NeilBlack (Nov 12, 2011)

The reality bomb that the Daleks built. The Doctor's TARDIS is capable of erasing universes from existence as well, although I can't remember if that worked on a multiverse scale. The reality bomb, though, was explicitly stated to wipe the entire multiverse.


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## Bioness (Nov 12, 2011)

Doctor Who can also be considered part of the Marvel Megaverse (is that the right term?)

Anyway Doctor Doom could find a way to beat most of what we see from the Doctor Who verse, and in another thread was agreed to be able to beat the Doctor himself should their prep be equal. However the Doctor Who verse doesn't have as much "ultimate power in a bottle" as the Marvel verse has. You basically have to build everything using your intelligent, and even that isn't enough to fully counter the real powerhouses in the Doctor Who universe, the ones that rarely make an appearance but basically control the entire multiverse.

The Guardians of Time which are essentially the abstracts of Doctor Who, the Eternals (think a bunch of arrogant Galactuses), Chronovores, The Old Ones (basically all the big horrors from Cthulhu Mythos), Omega, Swimmers (beings so big that universes burst at their sides), and a bunch more.

Also think of the Time Lords and the Daleks, a single TARDIS can destroy a universe, the time lords had millions of them and a lot of them were more powerful than the one the Doctor had. The Daleks were able to match the Time Lords and have made several universal destruction devices.

Doctor Doom again may be able to fight with the top dogs but sooner or later he'll meet the ones that could just blink and wipe him from reality.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 12, 2011)

NeilBlack said:


> The Doctor's TARDIS is capable of erasing universes from existence as well, although I can't remember if that worked on a multiverse scale.



Before the Doctor is imprisoned, a Cyberman outright states that the TARDIS explosion will erase all universes.


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## Bioness (Nov 12, 2011)

I'm honestly skeptical that the TARDIS was capable of erasing all universes, from what we saw it erased one, but I think that Cyberman meant more of the dimensions that surround and fill the bigger main universe. 

Compare that single fodder Cyberman statment vs. Davros creator of the Daleks



> "All realities will be deleted"


 - to me this sounds like alternate time line realities, the ones that may or may not have yet to be formed



> "Across the entire universe, never stopping, never faltering, never  fading. People and planets and stars will become dust. And the dust will  become atoms and the atoms will become... nothing. And the wavelength  will continue, breaking through the rift at the heart of the Medusa  Cascade into every dimension, every parallel, every single corner of  creation. *This* is my ultimate victory, Doctor! The destruction of  reality *itself*!"



See the difference.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 12, 2011)

It doesn't make too big a difference in the end, as the Time Lords are still capable of destroying the multiverse with the Final Sanction, and of course the Daleks have the Reality Bomb. Two multiverse busters, and they aren't even top tier in Doctor Who.


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## Vault (Nov 12, 2011)

Yeah this hasnt been done before


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Nov 12, 2011)

Stomp. Utter stomp.


Physics Man said:


> Doom can maybe steal the ultimate nullifier then use a Doom bot to wield the nullifier to destroy the Doctor who verse.


In a week? Anyway, the Beast could tank the last multiverse's detsruction, and the daleks have a void ship, so that wouldn't work anyway. Doctor Who also has tons of multiverse- busting weapons and creatures as well.


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## Havoc (Nov 14, 2011)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Stomp. Utter stomp.
> 
> In a week? Anyway, the Beast could tank the last multiverse's detsruction, and the daleks have a void ship, so that wouldn't work anyway. Doctor Who also has tons of multiverse- busting weapons and creatures as well.


He has done much more in a week.

The daleks wont be using the void ship since this is one sided prep.


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## Vault (Nov 14, 2011)

The doctor did build a new Tardis in less than 15 minutes before .


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## Havoc (Nov 14, 2011)

Cool, Doom rips his hearts out and absorbs his energy.


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## NeilBlack (Nov 14, 2011)

And while Doom is using up one of the Doctor's regenerations, the Daleks perform an emergency temporal shift to their void ship and tank the nullifier.

Or the Time Lords put Doom in a time lock and thus keep him from doing anything to effect the rest of the universe.

The Whoniverse has a ridiculous amount of hax. Doom could probably take most, maybe even all, of them individually, but throw them all at him at once and Doom doesn't stand a chance.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Nov 14, 2011)

Havoc said:


> He has done much more in a week.
> 
> The daleks wont be using the void ship since this is one sided prep.



They won't have to build one from scratch. They already have one, ready. Anyway, lots of characters from doctor who can distact doom for ages while the others build up their own prep. Seeing as half of the characters in doctor who often *accidentally* nearly destroy the world (e.g. tardis), and the doctor and others are always there to stop them, defeating doom while working together shouldn't be a problem.


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## Vault (Nov 14, 2011)

The funny thing about all of this is that the time lords and the Daleks arent even in the high tiers in their verse. This thread has been done before and Doom lost


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## Havoc (Nov 14, 2011)

NeilBlack said:


> And while Doom is using up one of the Doctor's regenerations, the Daleks perform an emergency temporal shift to their void ship and tank the nullifier.
> 
> Or the Time Lords put Doom in a time lock and thus keep him from doing anything to effect the rest of the universe.
> 
> The Whoniverse has a ridiculous amount of hax. Doom could probably take most, maybe even all, of them individually, but throw them all at him at once and Doom doesn't stand a chance.





jetwaterluffy1 said:


> They won't have to build one from scratch. They already have one, ready. Anyway, lots of characters from doctor who can distact doom for ages while the others build up their own prep. Seeing as half of the characters in doctor who often *accidentally* nearly destroy the world (e.g. tardis), and the doctor and others are always there to stop them, defeating doom while working together shouldn't be a problem.


I'm not saying Doom wins, but the only thing I can take from your posts is you lack knowledge on Doom and didn't even read the OP.


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## NeilBlack (Nov 14, 2011)

What makes you say that?


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## Havoc (Nov 14, 2011)

Because you don't know what Doom is capable of and you didn't read the OP?

Also, he wont be fighting all of them at once, that doesn't even make sense.


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## hojou (Nov 14, 2011)

People are serious under estimating doctor doom, a week should be efficient since he can travel back in time, use doom bots and vast technology and what not and pis won't effect him, well hopefully not.


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## Glued (Nov 14, 2011)

the Doctor Clobbers dat dad-blamed chromdome.


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## Havoc (Nov 14, 2011)

Doom casually backhands The Doctor out of existence.


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## Vault (Nov 14, 2011)

The wanking on both sides is getting ridiculous


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## NeilBlack (Nov 14, 2011)

> Doom casually backhands The Doctor out of existence.



It's been established that Doom can backhand the Doctor out of existence one on one. But the Doctor isn't alone in this fight. Doom also has to deal with the Time Lords and the Daleks, just to mention two other factions, and these two empires are capable of carrying on a universe-spanning war, both are capable of causing and surviving multiverse annihilation. And they aren't even the most powerful factions in the Whoniverse.


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## BuggytheYonkou (Nov 15, 2011)

The original poster stated that Dooms goal is to destroy every being in the universe not to destroy the universe it self. So even if Doom manages to kill everyone in the universe he still loses under these conditions because he cannot kill Captain Jack.


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## NeilBlack (Nov 15, 2011)

> So even if Doom manages to kill everyone in the universe he still loses under these conditions because he cannot kill Captain Jack.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Jack can die. He has a limited amount of lifeforce that can eventually be used up. Jack eventually becomes the Face of Boe, who does in fact die. I don't think Jack could tank the end of the universe, should Doom go that route.


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## Havoc (Nov 15, 2011)

NeilBlack said:


> It's been established that Doom can backhand the Doctor out of existence one on one. But the Doctor isn't alone in this fight. Doom also has to deal with the Time Lords and the Daleks, just to mention two other factions, and these two empires are capable of carrying on a universe-spanning war, both are capable of causing and surviving multiverse annihilation. And they aren't even the most powerful factions in the Whoniverse.


The Time Lords and the Daleks wont have knowledge of Doom before he takes them out.  The entire Who universe will not be fighting Doom at the same time.  Doom can get his hands on things that put him on par or above abstracts.

The fact that Doom has prep while the Who universe is completely unaware of him or his intentions gives him the edge, especially since his prep can easily lead to giving him power on a universal or multiversal scale.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 15, 2011)

NeilBlack said:


> And while Doom is using up one of the Doctor's regenerations, the Daleks perform an emergency temporal shift to their void ship and tank the nullifier.



Daleks are gonna help a time lord now because of what? 



NeilBlack said:


> Or the Time Lords put Doom in a time lock and thus keep him from doing anything to effect the rest of the universe.



only for it to be revealed to be a Doom bot, and Doom re-retcons magic back into existence to fuck with them



NeilBlack said:


> The Whoniverse has a ridiculous amount of hax. Doom could probably take most, maybe even all, of them individually, but throw them all at him at once and Doom doesn't stand a chance.



While doom probably wont be taking out the cosmic beings of the Whoniverse your massively underestimating him if you think time lords are easily beating him



hojou said:


> People are serious under estimating doctor doom, a week should be efficient since he can travel back in time, use doom bots and vast technology and what not and pis won't effect him, well hopefully not.



Dooms built things like probability altering machines with twelve hours to spare and access to a junkyard. given a week and access to his tech and access to the stuff he can steal from who earth I don't even want to think about the things he can up with

a week preptime and just his own stuff is something he can use to give himself eternal life..then infinite prep time with time looping tech and knowledge on human genetics


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## NeilBlack (Nov 15, 2011)

> Daleks are gonna help a time lord now because of what?



1) They aren't helping him. They're taking advantage of his death to help themselves. Very Dalek.

2) I thought it was assumed in the OBD that when a 'verse is attacked the inhabitants will help each other against the invader, even if they are normally enemies.




> only for it to be revealed to be a Doom bot, and Doom re-retcons magic back into existence to fuck with them



A likely outcome. Which is why I wouldn't argue for the Time Lords taking on Doom by themselves. But they aren't alone.




> While doom probably wont be taking out the cosmic beings of the Whoniverse your massively underestimating him if you think time lords are easily beating him



I don't think the Time Lords are easily beating him. In a Doom vs the Time Lords fight I wouldn't even know which side had better odds (although I'd guess Doom). But the Time Lords aren't the only ones Doom is fighting.




> Dooms built things like probability altering machines with twelve hours to spare and access to a junkyard.



Yes. And? The Doctor has built things like a vehicle capable of traveling through all of time and space, into alternate dimensions, and stabilizing time paradoxes with a few minutes and a junk yard. And there is a lot more than just the Doctor in the Whoniverse.


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## BuggytheYonkou (Nov 15, 2011)

NeilBlack said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Jack can die. He has a limited amount of lifeforce that can eventually be used up. Jack eventually becomes the Face of Boe, who does in fact die. I don't think Jack could tank the end of the universe, should Doom go that route.




*Spoiler*: __ 



 and how far in the future was that? plus we don't know how many times Jack died in his life time. A more interesting question would be can Doom kill Jack enough times before he dies of old age? I am obviously joking but I think it would make for a more interesting debate.


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## NeilBlack (Nov 15, 2011)

> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> and how far in the future was that? plus we don't know how many times Jack died in his life time. A more interesting question would be can Doom kill Jack enough times before he dies of old age? I am obviously joking but I think it would make for a more interesting debate.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Well, Doom is powerful enough to destroy the universe. I don't think Jack has enough life force to get back up after that. It's debatable, though. And I'd love to be proven wrong on that.


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## BuggytheYonkou (Nov 15, 2011)

NeilBlack said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Well, Doom is powerful enough to destroy the universe. I don't think Jack has enough life force to get back up after that. It's debatable, though. And I'd love to be proven wrong on that.




*Spoiler*: __ 



 So Jack lived till the year five billion and fifty three where he was using his life force to power the under city. Now is a force capable of destroying the universe powerful enough to kill someone who lived to be over five billion years old?


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## NeilBlack (Nov 15, 2011)

> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> So Jack lived till the year five billion and fifty three where he was using his life force to power the under city. Now is a force capable of destroying the universe powerful enough to kill someone who lived to be over five billion years old?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Well, assuming that life force in some way equates to energy, we can look at how much energy a single person uses in a day, then multiply that by five billion years. The result ends up being vastly smaller than the energy content of the observable universe. Anything with enough power to destroy the universe would simply wipe out an amount of energy as insignificant as what it would take to keep a human being going for five billion years.


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## BuggytheYonkou (Nov 15, 2011)

NeilBlack said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Well, assuming that life force in some way equates to energy, we can look at how much energy a single person uses in a day, then multiply that by five billion years. The result ends up being vastly smaller than the energy content of the observable universe. Anything with enough power to destroy the universe would simply wipe out an amount of energy as insignificant as what it would take to keep a human being going for five billion years.




*Spoiler*: __ 



 There we go Doom could kill Jack if he destroys the universe. It was nice talking to you about this


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 15, 2011)

NeilBlack said:


> 1) They aren't helping him. They're taking advantage of his death to help themselves. Very Dalek.



and Victor isn't prepared for this because?



NeilBlack said:


> 2) I thought it was assumed in the OBD that when a 'verse is attacked the inhabitants will help each other against the invader, even if they are normally enemies.



not unless specified from what i recall 



NeilBlack said:


> A likely outcome. Which is why I wouldn't argue for the Time Lords taking on Doom by themselves. But they aren't alone.



it's one sided prep IIRC he has to take on the whole universe they aren't magically all getting along to take him on 





NeilBlack said:


> Yes. And? The Doctor has built things like a vehicle capable of traveling through all of time and space, into alternate dimensions, and stabilizing time paradoxes with a few minutes and a junk yard. And there is a lot more than just the Doctor in the Whoniverse.



Doom is a threat to some one who builds cosmic cubes on accident and leaves them around

i'm aware of that and I don't think Doom can beat the cosmics but all the same

Gyro Gearloose on the other hand..He's nearly richards level and he;s a fucking toon forcer


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## NeilBlack (Nov 15, 2011)

> not unless specified from what i recall



Ah, I see. It's been assumed in the threads I've read so far (not many), but as a noob I could be terribly mistaken.

If I'm mistaken, this makes things a whole lot easier for Doom. I still don't think he wins, though.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 15, 2011)

NeilBlack said:


> Ah, I see. It's been assumed in the threads I've read so far (not many), but as a noob I could be terribly mistaken.
> 
> If I'm mistaken, this makes things a whole lot easier for Doom. I still don't think he wins, though.



which threads? because in some cases the opposing side attacks everyone and is to overtly and obvious a threat to be ignored. doom usually isn't that stupid

you see that in the HST vs real world threads


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## Endless Mike (Nov 15, 2011)

Is the DWverse aligned and bloodlusted against him?


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## NeilBlack (Nov 15, 2011)

> Is the DWverse aligned and bloodlusted against him?



It wasn't specified. What's the default assumption on 'verses being aligned?


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## Havoc (Nov 15, 2011)

Default assumption is that the universe is in its current state and unaware of his intentions, and that they will act like they normally would.


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## Bioness (Nov 15, 2011)

Doom would still die even if that were the case Havoc.


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## Vault (Nov 15, 2011)

I read doom retconning magic back into the dwverse? That person's wanking is just...Lol that person should just stop posting lol


Edit

IWD it's you  son im disappoint.


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## Bioness (Nov 15, 2011)

Havoc said:


> How                     ?





Bioness said:


> Doctor Who can also be considered part of the Marvel Megaverse (is that the right term?)
> 
> Anyway Doctor Doom could find a way to beat most of what we see from the Doctor Who verse, and in another thread was agreed to be able to beat the Doctor himself should their prep be equal. However the Doctor Who verse doesn't have as much "ultimate power in a bottle" as the Marvel verse has. You basically have to build everything using your intelligent, and even that isn't enough to fully counter the real powerhouses in the Doctor Who universe, the ones that rarely make an appearance but basically control the entire multiverse.
> 
> ...



this        how


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## Havoc (Nov 15, 2011)

OK, but that entire post ignores the fact that Doom can acquire abstract level power within a week.


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## Bioness (Nov 15, 2011)

How exactly can he do that?

He is getting a week of prep with knowledge, but I don't think he can just poof off somewhere and gain universal abstract power.


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## Havoc (Nov 15, 2011)

Steal a tardis.

Absorb the energy into his suit.

Vuala.


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## Havoc (Nov 15, 2011)

Now, if Doom is dropped into the Who universe w/o anything except his suit, this is a different story.

Conversely, if he starts in his universe with prep, and then goes to who universe, he could win handily.


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## Vault (Nov 15, 2011)

No he would not. His not getting past the six fold. 

Absorbing the heart of the Tardis? Yeah he isn't doing that. He will get overloaded


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## Havoc (Nov 15, 2011)

Vault said:


> No he would not. His not getting past the six fold.
> 
> Absorbing the heart of the Tardis? Yeah he isn't doing that. He will get overloaded


He has absorbed Galactus' and Nightmare's power into his suit.

He has absorbed pre retcon Beyonder's power into himself.

So...


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## Endless Mike (Nov 15, 2011)

You do know that you can't reference Pre-Retcon Beyonder for a match including a current Marvel character, right?


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## Vault (Nov 15, 2011)

I was going to mention the same, beyonder doesn't count. And time vortex powers make galactus and nightmare look like children. I'm still going by he goes crazy from absorbing it.


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## Havoc (Nov 15, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> You do know that you can't reference Pre-Retcon Beyonder for a match including a current Marvel character, right?





Vault said:


> I was going to mention the same, beyonder doesn't count. And time vortex powers make galactus and nightmare look like children. I'm still going by he goes crazy from absorbing it.



Secret Wars one wasn't retconned, so Doom still stole the power of Beyonder which exceeded Galactus'.  Also, a comic recently seemed to suggest that Classic Beyonder wasn't retconned, but thats for another thread.

And how do these energies make Galactus and Nightmare look like a child?


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## Bioness (Nov 15, 2011)

Havoc said:


> Steal a tardis.
> 
> Absorb the energy into his suit.
> 
> Vuala.



You make it sound like stealing one is easy.Let alone opening it or absorbing its energy.

And even if he gets prep and power from the Marvel universe he is not beating the Doctor Who verse.


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## Vault (Nov 15, 2011)

So basically you don't know much about Dr who yet you are convinced they get stomped? 

The time vortex is the dimension which all time and space in the dwverse exists. It's energies are so vast that a simple human staring at it gives vast powers, omniscience, reality warping to an unknown degree etc.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 15, 2011)

The events of the comic were retconned so the Beyonder wasn't more powerful than Galactus, the cosmics were just deceiving him.


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## Havoc (Nov 15, 2011)

Vault said:


> So basically you don't know much about Dr who yet you are convinced they get stomped?
> 
> The time vortex is the dimension which all time and space in the dwverse exists. It's energies are so vast that a simple human staring at it gives vast powers, omnipresence, reality warping to an unknown degree etc.


 Wtf are you talking about, so because you dont know the magnitude of Galactus power that somehow means I doing know about Dr.Who? Straw man, I never said Dom would stomp.

 When a human stares at it they are absorbing its energies. Yes, and Galactus reserve of power cosmic gives someone vast powers, omnipresence, reality warping, etc.

Try again.



Endless Mike said:


> The events of the comic were retconned so the Beyonder wasn't more powerful than Galactus, the cosmics were just deceiving him.



Nothing about SW1 was retconned.

The only time it was saying about them playing along so he could adjust was in regards to the events of SW2.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 15, 2011)

Vault said:


> I read doom retconning magic back into the dwverse? That person's wanking is just...Lol that person should just stop posting lol
> 
> 
> Edit
> ...



Normally I'd be attacking the first guy who made such a claim..but honestly for guys like Doom that isn't outlandish at all given his better feats man I mean it's a telling thing that Starlins Thanos and Classic Strange are the only prep masters left better than him



Bioness said:


> How exactly can he do that?



with vastly less advanced technology then what he has access too in the whoniverse he has done this,




Bioness said:


> He is getting a week of prep with knowledge, but I don't think he can just poof off somewhere and gain universal abstract power.



no he can'r what he can do is either hurl himself backwards in time and give himself a few billion years of prep like what happened with MOD or create a time loop that gives him infinite prep and in that time span..well he can do basically what ever the hell he pleases. 


hell a time traveling device IIRC was standard on his older suits 




Havoc said:


> Steal a tardis.
> 
> Absorb the energy into his suit.
> 
> Vuala.



this is also a valid tactic



Vault said:


> Absorbing the heart of the Tardis? Yeah he isn't doing that. He will get overloaded



because Rose got over loaded? considering what Dooms been through and held fast and then achieved a power up on pure will alone?

doom handled omniscience just fine more than once 

hell even with the retcon a multiversal Cube level entity attempted to vivisect Doom across every level of his being mind body and soul across multi points in time if memory serves and Doom not only willed himself through that but jacked it's powers it's crazy to assume because Rose nearly died and the Doctor said something about humans not handling it..that Doom who is beyond any human the doctor has ever encountered couldn't handle it's power.



Vault said:


> And time vortex powers make galactus and nightmare look like children.



I'm seeing nothing to suggest the vortex is beyond a cube level entity and big G can literally eat those if he choose to do so in terms of just where he ranks 



Havoc said:


> Now, if Doom is dropped into the Who universe w/o anything except his suit, this is a different story.
> 
> Conversely, if he starts in his universe with prep, and then goes to who universe, he could win handily.



OP'er didn't specify he got tossed naked or just with his suit into the whoniverse..my guess is it's safe to say he gets access to his resource base


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## Havoc (Nov 15, 2011)

Bioness said:


> You make it sound like stealing one is easy.Let alone opening it or absorbing its energy.
> 
> And even if he gets prep and power from the Marvel universe he is not beating the Doctor Who verse.



With a week of onesided prep it doesn't need to be easy, he'd still do it, he has done much more.  Do you not know the energies Doom has absorbed?

If he gets prep and power from Marvel he'll come with Galactus' power, the IG, cosmic cubes, etc.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 15, 2011)

Havoc said:


> Nothing about SW1 was retconned.
> 
> The only time it was saying about them playing along so he could adjust was in regards to the events of SW2.



So you think half a Cube Being can legitimately beat Galactus after eating his own worldship? 



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I'm seeing nothing to suggest the vortex is beyond a cube level entity and big G can literally eat those if he choose to do so in terms of just where he ranks



Not according to your buddy Havoc here


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Nov 15, 2011)

I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about
if pre-retcon beyonder was retconned then sw1&2 never happened


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 15, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Not according to your buddy Havoc here



Beyonder been fucked with by the editors post Shooter so many times..I have no clue what he's operating at now, I mean seriously I get people hated Jim but get the hell over it.

my understanding of the event was basically what you said that it was retconned.



Kirihara said:


> I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about
> if pre-retcon beyonder was retconned then sw1&2 never happened



they would have happened but all the cosmics were basically fucking with beyonder..as opposed to loosing to him

official jobbing basically hardly invalidates Dooms feat though


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## Endless Mike (Nov 15, 2011)

They did happen, the events were not retconned, but the perspective on them was. Beyonder was made to be half a Cube Being and the higher cosmics he beat were just toying with him. The events portrayed in the comics still happened.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Nov 15, 2011)

in his mind       .


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## Endless Mike (Nov 15, 2011)

Um, no. Where do you think Venom came from, for example?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 15, 2011)

Venom came from the secret wars planet Kirihara if it was all in Beyonders head as you say decades of Spiderman characters toxin Carnage that yellow boob Venom..and all that would be completely non canon and non existent


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## Artful Lurker (Nov 15, 2011)

Don't think he can cut it


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Nov 15, 2011)

Havoc said:


> I'm not saying Doom wins, but the only thing I can take from your posts is you lack knowledge on Doom and didn't even read the OP.


 It would be quite nice if you showed me how my post was wrong. That way, I can learn and make better posts later. 



hojou said:


> People are serious under estimating doctor doom, a week should be efficient since he can travel back in time, use doom bots and vast technology and what not and pis won't effect him, well hopefully not.


 Doctor Who characters can travel back in time. Doctor Who characters have vast technology.



NeilBlack said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Jack can die. He has a limited amount of lifeforce that can eventually be used up. Jack eventually becomes the Face of Boe, who does in fact die. I don't think Jack could tank the end of the universe, should Doom go that route.


 The Beast did tank the end of the universe, and the pandorica kind of did as well, so...



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Daleks are gonna help a time lord now because of what?


 Due to a united cause to prevent their death. They helped with the pandorica project and allied with the master, remember?


> While doom probably wont be taking out the cosmic beings of the Whoniverse your massively underestimating him if you think time lords are easily beating him


 I don't think time lords can easily beat him, but he can't beat whoverse.



Vault said:


> I read doom retconning magic back into the dwverse? That person's wanking is just...Lol that person should just stop posting lol
> 
> 
> Edit
> ...


Whoverse already has magic. Carrontines and the Beast are magical creatures. (Well, sort of. Magicscience, anyway.)


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## NeilBlack (Nov 15, 2011)

> Whoverse already has magic. Carrontines and the Beast are magical creatures. (Well, sort of. Magicscience, anyway.)



The Whoniverse does have magic, and although it's currently turned off by the Time Lords I imagine Doom could reverse that. But I don't recall the beast being magical, just beyond anything the Doctor understood.


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## Havoc (Nov 15, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> So you think half a Cube Being can legitimately beat Galactus after eating his own worldship?
> 
> 
> 
> Not according to your buddy Havoc here


Beyonder isn't half a cube being.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 15, 2011)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Doctor Who characters can travel back in time. Doctor Who characters have vast technology.



so can Vic, so does Vic your point?



jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Due to a united cause to prevent their death. They helped with the pandorica project and allied with the master, remember?



this is one human..given how massively arrogant both species are they wont take Vic seriously until he does some large scale destruction, by then it might already be too late


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## Havoc (Nov 15, 2011)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> It would be quite nice if you showed me how my post was wrong. That way, I can learn and make better posts later.


You could have learned where your mistake was if you bothered reading the other posts I already made...


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## Havoc (Nov 15, 2011)

EM, here is Spiderman absorbing Beyonder's power and owning Galactus and MM.

This is also canon to 616.







More scans to show what I'm talking about.


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## Bioness (Nov 15, 2011)

NeilBlack said:


> The Whoniverse does have magic, and although it's currently turned off by the Time Lords I imagine Doom could reverse that. But I don't recall the beast being magical, just beyond anything the Doctor understood.



It wasn't just turned off. The Time Lords rewrote the fundamental laws that structure the universe so that magic was impossible unless it was grounded by rational means. Conversely in another universe the Ferutu (which are the magic equivalent of Time Lords) made magic dominate though they didn't get rid of technology (is that possible?)


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## Calamity (Nov 16, 2011)

Havoc said:


> EM, here is Spiderman absorbing Beyonder's power and owning Galactus and MM.
> 
> This is also canon to 616.
> 
> ...



This is good stuff. Which comic is this?


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## Havoc (Nov 16, 2011)

Spiderman: The Secret Wars


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Nov 16, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Venom came from the secret wars planet Kirihara if it was all in Beyonders head as you say decades of Spiderman characters toxin Carnage that yellow boob Venom..and all that would be completely non canon and non existent


he did? must've miss that part


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## Bioness (Nov 16, 2011)

Why does it seem like everyone and their mother-in-law in Marvel and DC has somehow gained immense power at least once, sometimes yeah for fanservice other times I'm just like WTF.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 16, 2011)

That was a reality back during the SW era where Galactus was still faking his losses to Beyonder.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Nov 16, 2011)

Havoc said:


> You could have learned where your mistake was if you bothered reading the other posts I already made...


I've looked through your posts. I found litle which explains much.


NeilBlack said:


> The Whoniverse does have magic, and although it's currently turned off by the Time Lords I imagine Doom could reverse that. But I don't recall the beast being magical, just beyond anything the Doctor understood.


 Did they? When? If it was before the time war, it may be void now anyway. The beast's powers look like magic and smells like magic. What's the difference?


Havoc said:


> OK, but that entire post ignores the fact that Doom can acquire abstract level power within a week.


That's interesting. It's a good thing DW verse doesn't already have about ten of them, then.


The Immortal WatchDog said:


> so can Vic, so does Vic your point?


Look at the post I quoted.


> this is one human..given how massively arrogant both species are they wont take Vic seriously until he does some large scale destruction, by then it might already be too late


Most DW high- top tiers are time sensitive, so they should notice a ton of critical moments in time around doom and realise what a large threat he is.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 16, 2011)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> That's interesting. It's a good thing DW verse doesn't already have about ten of them, then.



you can of course prove these guys are as powerful as Galactus or hell even a cube level being



jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Look at the post I quoted.
> 
> Most DW high- top tiers are time sensitive, so they should notice a ton of critical moments in time around doom and realise what a large threat he is.



and..this matters? the only TL shown to take humans seriously is the Doctor


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 16, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> you can of course prove these guys are as powerful as Galactus or hell *even a cube level being*



Let's not get carried away. The Doctor's outdated, breaking down piece of junk TARDIS is already as powerful as a cube being. Anything that can be considered top tier in Doctor Who won't find a cube being the least bit impressive.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 16, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Let's not get carried away. The Doctor's outdated, breaking down piece of junk TARDIS is already as powerful as a cube being. Anything that can be considered top tier in Doctor Who won't find a cube being the least bit impressive.



it's as powerful as a Cube being? last I checked the Dr didn't routinely use it to warp reality across the multiverse. it's explosion is supposed to be Cube level in DC but their other abilities? I've yet to see anything that isn't a who cosmic do that stuff.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 16, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> it's as powerful as a Cube being? last I checked the Dr didn't routinely use it to warp reality across the multiverse. it's explosion is supposed to be Cube level in DC but their other abilities? I've yet to see anything that isn't a who cosmic do that stuff.



The explosion may or may not be above cube level, actually, depending on whether you take the Cyberman's statement of 'all universes will be deleted' seriously. Aside from that, the Master warped the universe when he turned it into his paradox machine, and the Doctor negated a potentially universe destroying black hole with it in Time Crash. You're right, though, that it can't do all the things a cube being can. I only meant that it can generate the same level of power.

As for non-cosmic things with ridiculous feats, the Terminus created the universe with the explosion of one of its fuel pods, and Logopolis was single-handedly preventing the heat death of the universe.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 16, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> The explosion may or may not be above cube level, actually, depending on whether you take the Cyberman's statement of 'all universes will be deleted' seriously. Aside from that, the Master warped the universe when he turned it into his paradox machine, and the Doctor negated a potentially universe destroying black hole with it in Time Crash. You're right, though, that it can't do all the things a cube being can. I only meant that it can generate the same level of power.



I thought it was a chain reaction destruction of the multiverse...sort of a domino affect similar to MJJ that's still impressive mind you..



Eldritch Sukima said:


> As for non-cosmic things with ridiculous feats, the Terminus created the universe with the explosion of one of its fuel pods, and *Logopolis was single-handedly preventing the heat death of the universe.*



that was a retcon? the universes heat death was what they ran into when they Met Jacobi master..wasn't it?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 16, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I thought it was a chain reaction destruction of the multiverse...sort of a domino affect similar to MJJ that's still impressive mind you..



It's not entirely clear, but it might have been. In Doomsday the Doctor states that parallel universes are created by every decision anyone makes. Since the TARDIS explosion prevented the main universe from ever existing, nobody would be around to make those decisions, so those other universes would also be prevented from existing.



> that was a retcon? the universes heat death was what they ran into when they Met Jacobi master..wasn't it?



I got the impression that Logopolis basically delayed the inevitable with its system. So it wouldn't really be a retcon, just that they couldn't hold off entropy for any longer than that hundred trillion years. I haven't watched Logopolis in a while, though, so I could be wrong.


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## Havoc (Nov 16, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> That was a reality back during the SW era where Galactus was still faking his losses to Beyonder.


Right, so he faked his lose to Spiderman too, that makes complete sense.


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## Havoc (Nov 16, 2011)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> I've looked through your posts. I found litle which explains much.
> difference?
> 
> That's interesting. It's a good thing DW verse doesn't already have about ten of them, then.


Then read them again.

That's interesting.  It's a good thing I didn't say there weren't any...

What are their feats?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 16, 2011)

On a more relevant note, there were plenty of higher powers in the classic episodes. Eternals, Chronovores, the Guardians, and so on. Don't recall too many large scale feats from them on screen, though, so I'm not sure you could consider them abstract level.

I'm sure Doctor Who has a few beings up there, though, as I've heard some pretty crazy stuff about the books. Creatures so big that universes are regularly crushed against their sides and a cosmic that was going to create separate universes for every other being in existence, among other things.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Nov 17, 2011)

I will come back with some proper evidence later.


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## Bioness (Nov 17, 2011)

So the Doctor wins in a "who saved the entire universe" competition by twice as much as second place, good to know.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Nov 17, 2011)

Bioness said:


> So the Doctor wins in a "who saved the entire universe" competition by twice as much as second place, good to know.



I wasn't using that as proper evidence, it is pretty inaccurate anyway. I was posting it here so I can use it later to FIND some evidence. I had to go off somewhere and didn't have time to find my memory stick. (BTW, the Badwolf entitiy *can* reality-warp across the universe, hence the name.)


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