# A Song of Ice and Fire - Part 1



## Tazmo (Apr 2, 2012)

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is *Here*


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## Literally Exaggerated (Apr 2, 2012)

*A Song of Ice and Fire*

Anyone else read this series (besides Arilou, who I know is a fan)? I really hope so, because it is, hands down, the best fantasy series being published today, and if it maintains its current brilliance, is a possible contender for best fantasy series of all time.

Think of all those staples of fantasy: the destined hero, the princess who loves the peasant, the wise old magical mentor, powerful wizards, weak hordes of monstrous enemies, dark lords, foretold quests against impossible odds, good guys, bad guys. Okay, you have all that tolkein-esque D&D stuff in your head? Good. Throw it out the window. None of it applies to aSoIaF.

Instead you just have people, the most varied, complex, well realized cast of characters assembled in a fantasy novel, ever. And they all have different things they want to accomplish, lands to conquer, battles to win, overarching schemes so complex they would make Shikamaru shit himself. And the story switches from character to character, varied points of view, so there is no "main character", just a bunch of points of view facing off against each other in bloody conflict.

And what conflict! People die in this. Not in the Tolkein or Jordan type way, when main characters only ever die in moments of heroic sacrifice. Nope. "Good" guys, "bad" guys, all can die at any time, when you least expect it. And they stay dead. And because they're so brilliantly realized, you *care*.

Nobody does political intrigue than George RR Martin, few do action this intense and realistic and exciting, no one does characterization or plotting like he does.

Here are just a few of the characters in the story

Tyrion Lannister - Stunted, ugly, twisted. Brilliant, priveledged. Such is the paradox of Tyrion Lannister. The youngest son of the ruthless, wealthy Noble House of Lannister, he is a dwarf. His misshapen appearance has earned him the scorn of the entire world save his brother Jaime, but his brilliant mind makes him too useful a tool to simply discard. Cynical, ruthless, distrustful, he has committed horrible crimes, but he has managed to maintain a scrap of morality in the face of it all. Of course, in the politics of King's Landing, a scrap of morality is the best way to end up dead, and even Tyrion may not be brilliant enough to think his way out of myriad plots surrounding him.

Jaime Lannister - Tyrion's older brother, twin brother and lover (yes, i*c*st) to Queen Cersei. The youngest kinsguard of all time, one of the most brilliant fighters in the world. Handsome, arrogant, reckless. A killer of children, a savior of maidens, he is every bit as paradoxical and complex as his brother.

Arya Stark - Youngest daughter of House Stark, she rejects the noble way for young girls of embroidery and pretty dresses and balls, instead preferring swordplay which she studies under the swordmaster Syrio Forel. She is thrust into the harsh realities of the world, and the slow transformation from good natured tomboy into cold-blooded killer begs the question: When its all over, will there be anything recognizably human about Arya?

Sandor Clegane - the Hound of House Lannister. A towering, powerful warrior. A cynical killer who lives by the creed "only the strong survive", filled with self-loathing, failed morality and a lust for the next drink, he lives for one purpose: to kill his brother Gregor, who held his face in the fire when he was only 6 years old because he used one of his toys. But killing Gregor will be no easy task, as the 8 ft. tall Gregor is among the most feared men in Westeros.

Daenarys Targaryen - Mother of Dragons, the lone surviving daughter of the former kings of Westeros, House Targaryen, she wanders plains with the nomadic, barbarian Dothraki, seeking to reclaim her throne.

These are just a sampling, and in no way can I do them justice. Just trust me, if you like fantasy at all, you need to read this.


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## josh101 (Apr 2, 2012)

A question for all you book readers and tv watchers.

I love the Game of Thrones TV show, love it, what's it like watching it after you've read the book?

Because I read the hunger games before I watched the movie, and all I could think about is what was different, whats coming up next, etc, ruined the whole movie experience for me. 

So is it worth me reading the books? Will it spoil the TV show for me ( by knowing whats coming, and knowing whats different, etc ) ?


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## FitzChivalry (Apr 2, 2012)

The books are better. I would never not recommend them to anyone who wants to read great fantasy. I personally think it's cool that I get to see the things I read on paper realized on screen. Whether or not the books "ruin" it for you is up to the individual. Doesn't ruin it for me at all.


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## Fierce (Apr 2, 2012)

josh101 said:


> A question for all you book readers and tv watchers.
> 
> I love the Game of Thrones TV show, love it, what's it like watching it after you've read the book?
> 
> ...



If anything is spoiled, it is the show spoiling the books for you. It's a respectable adaptation, but nowhere near perfect. I strongly recommend reading the books before watching the show. Even if you've seen season 1 and now season 2 as it comes out, you should still read the first 2 books (and try and get ahead of the show). Don't just skip the first book. They're substantially more detailed (obviously), and many things are altered or omitted from the show, for the worse. Watching some things in the show that are different is frustrating to me, but it's still cool to see a lot of the stuff I've read come to life.


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## Dream Brother (Apr 2, 2012)

I prefer the books, and I don't really follow the show. 

The show looks like it does a decent job, though -- I've watched a few scenes, and I do like how Cersei seems a bit more humanised in comparison to her depiction in the first book.


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## martryn (Apr 2, 2012)

Read the books.  Even knowing what's eventually going to happen, the show is complex enough that I can't imagine how you're following it without having read the books.  You probably don't realize the significance of a lot of the minor characters.

And I agree that you need to start on Book 1 and try to catch up as soon as possible.  My favorite scene / dialogue was from the first book, and was completely omitted from the show.  In the show, you don't get to see the thought process of the characters the same way as you do when you read things from their point of view.  The show tries to portray some of these things through additional dialogue, or else leaves it out completely, but it's not the same. 

I love the show, and it's doing a fantastic job of interpreting the series, but in much the same way as the Lord of the Rings movies did with the novels.  Obviously the Lord of the Rings novels are much more complex, have different pacing, etc.  It's not the same experience.


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## Fierce (Apr 2, 2012)

martryn said:


> My favorite scene / dialogue was from the first book, and was completely omitted from the show.



What was that? No Tower of Joy scene made me rage something awful.


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## choco bao bao (Apr 2, 2012)

martryn said:


> Read the books.  Even knowing what's eventually going to happen, the show is complex enough that I can't imagine how you're following it without having read the books.  You probably don't realize the significance of a lot of the minor characters.


Agree with this. I re-watched the first episode of Season 1 with a friend, and tried to see it from her perspective and I thought it was quite convoluted and dull. Even in this season, I was watching with a couple of non-book reader friends and they were a little overwhelmed by the new characters. I told them they haven't seen Renly's camp yet, and they were all, "Who's Renly?" :/



> In the show, you don't get to see the thought process of the characters the same way as you do when you read things from their point of view.  The show tries to portray some of these things through additional dialogue, or else leaves it out completely, but it's not the same.


Yeah, I read somewhere that they had to write a lot of new dialogue for Davos because in the books his POV chapters are mostly thoughts instead of speech.


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## josh101 (Apr 2, 2012)

Of course If I was going to read the books I'd read the first, that's a given. Maybe I should just read the first book, then when the second season is complete read the second and so on. But I'm the type of guy who after reading the first and second book I'll just be itching to read the rest, thus spoiling the tv show. Also it would pain me to read the first 5, love them, then wait years for the last two. I see it has taken like an average of 5 years per book or so? Must hurt. 

And I feel I've been able to follow the TV show pretty well, I've read up a few things on google about the families/characters to understand it though.  and I do hear that the TV show skipped over a few characters importance.


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## choco bao bao (Apr 2, 2012)

josh101 said:


> Of course If I was going to read the books I'd read the first, that's a given. Maybe I should just read the first book, then when the second season is complete read the second and so on. But I'm the type of guy who after reading the first and second book I'll just be itching to read the rest, thus spoiling the tv show. Also it would pain me to read the first 5, love them, then wait years for the last two. I see it has taken like an average of 5 years per book or so? Must hurt. :X


I picked up the books last year and forced myself to complete the first book before starting on the show. By the time it got to Ep 5 or 6, I was already starting on the second book because I couldn't resist! Yeah I was a bit hesitant to read everything so quickly because of the huge gaps in between books so I just kept re-reading them. It wasn't really hard to read them again because by the time I finish, I'd have forgotten stuff at the beginning and it's fun to find out new things on a re-read. I think we might have to wait at least 3 years for _The Winds of Winter_. :/


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## Fierce (Apr 2, 2012)

josh101 said:


> Of course If I was going to read the books I'd read the first, that's a given. Maybe I should just read the first book, then when the second season is complete read the second and so on. But I'm the type of guy who after reading the first and second book I'll just be itching to read the rest, thus spoiling the tv show. Also it would pain me to read the first 5, love them, then wait years for the last two. I see it has taken like an average of 5 years per book or so? Must hurt.
> 
> And I feel I've been able to follow the TV show pretty well, I've read up a few things on google about the families/characters to understand it though.  and I do hear that the TV show skipped over a few characters importance.



The first 3 books didn't have big gaps between them. AGoT came out in '96, ACoK in '98, and ASoS in '00. Only when it came to AFFC and ADWD did it take 5 years, then 6 years, but that was only because they were originally supposed to be 1 book. It became too big to publish though, so he had to figure out a way to cut the material in half and rework things chronologically to fit. He also ran into a major problem on how to bring everything together in the most recent book that set him back a few years. Supposedly that's all out of the way now, so ideally, the next book should be out in at most 2 years from now, and the last one shouldn't have more than a 2-3 year gap after that. Here's to hoping he lives that long. >_>

Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about falling in love with the books, then having to wait. You need to reread every book several times to get a true grasp for what you're reading. There's numerous things you don't catch on to during the first read through of the series, and it never gets boring. At least not to me. It's extremely rewarding when you reread one of the books and can't believe the genius in the writing as you find some incredible form of foreshadowing.


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## pfft (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm too lazy and important (jk) to outrightly quote martryn at this time but I pretty much agree with everything he said. 

Actually I was thinking I should rewatch season 1 to gain a better perspective on it since I started the books after seeing season 1.  The story is so vivid in the books compared to the series definitely. 

Anyone who hasn't read the books and just watches the show is missing out on alot of things.


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## martryn (Apr 3, 2012)

> What was that? No Tower of Joy scene made me rage something awful.



Yep, that one.  I'm still hoping we see it as a flashback.  It could happen since the show isn't necessarily bound by the same POV's as the book. 



> Maybe I should just read the first book, then when the second season is complete read the second and so on. But I'm the type of guy who after reading the first and second book I'll just be itching to read the rest, thus spoiling the tv show.



Wouldn't spoil it.  It would make it a lot easier to understand.  Every knight you see in the show, walking around, fighting, being told to do something, is a character in the book.  And you become much more aware of their presence in the book.  In the television show you'd hardly know who Loras or Renly or Davos is, you might not catch the importance of a character like Illyrio, and I bet you can't tell who the fuck is who up at the Wall.


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## Didi (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm so pleased that Dolorous Edd is finally in the show; He's one of my favourite characters, the guy's hilarious 


But yeah I first watched the first season of the show and only then read the books. Still thought they were amazing even though for the first book I knew what was coming. So do it, definitely.

@martryn: except for the fact that they made some characters up to better explain backstories and character's thoughts. Like Ros the whore. I suppose it's quite the good way to do it though. Also for that reason it looks like, judged on the trailers where I'm quite sure I spotted her in Qarth, they're not killing off Doreah.


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## choco bao bao (Apr 7, 2012)

*Spoiler*: _ADwD spoilers_ 



I finished ADwD back in January and read around that Quentyn Martell might be a fake. I just finished a re-read of ADwD but other than the dragons not taking a liking to him as he claimed, are there any other hints that point to him not being who he is?

And also, I don't get why GRRM is introducing so many pretenders (there's widespread belief that Aegon might be a fake too), does anyone have any insights into this?


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## Fierce (Apr 7, 2012)

That was not a fake Quentyn.


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## josh101 (Apr 12, 2012)

Just bought the first book, and holy shit. I knew it was big, but 750 pages with such small font? :ho God damn!

Just started it, what's the deal with antlers in the dire wolf? Why did it cause so much worry?

The book seems hella complicated.


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## Fierce (Apr 12, 2012)

It's a lot to swallow at first. No idea how fast you'll start to grasp things. I didn't start figuring out who everyone really was until the second book. I didn't have a "full" understanding until I read up on all the current theories and such after I finished my first read through of the books that are out thus far, and then my second read of the series.


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## Nae'blis (Apr 12, 2012)

^ lol

It's pretty vanilla for the first two books. If you haven't remembered who everyone is at that point you will be fucked, barbed black dildo and all.

But lol trying to fully comprehend a fantasy _series_ in the first book. The only thing truly confusing about the first book is the prologue, with the Others.


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## pfft (Apr 12, 2012)

Pherenike said:


> *Spoiler*: _ADwD spoilers_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



he was just a dumbass who thought he would be able to tame the dragons.. they aren't just going to naturally adhere to you even if you have the blood in you.  

They barely adhered to Dany and I think that is because of how she seperated herself from them and locked them away. She should have been working with them non stop training them every day..  ofc she doesn't know the exact way to do this.. 



*Spoiler*: __ 



Quentyn was going in there thinking he was bawss and shit with his belief that he could use his bit of Targaryen blood as a natural precursor for his future with Dany.  I am glad he is gone. Dany doesn't need him as one of her consorts. He was too young and stupid but you have to admire that same stupidity because it was born in bravery.  rofl the idiot


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## Fierce (Apr 12, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> ^ lol
> 
> It's pretty vanilla for the first two books. If you haven't remembered who everyone is at that point you will be fucked, barbed black dildo and all.
> 
> But lol trying to fully comprehend a fantasy _series_ in the first book. The only thing truly confusing about the first book is the prologue, with the Others.





As far as the first book goes, I really only meant I hadn't entirely figured out who all the (at the time) secondary characters were.

As for trying to understand the story...You figured out R + L = J all on your own? Gravedigger theory? T=T? There's a ton of extremely subtle details throughout the series that, if they've been interpreted correctly, could completely reshape the entire scheme of the story.


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## josh101 (Apr 12, 2012)

Damn, the book really does contain a lot more than the show. Why did they not put the Ghost/Tyrion scene in  that would have been great. Only that far in at the moment.


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## choco bao bao (Apr 12, 2012)

josh101 said:


> Just started it, what's the deal with antlers in the dire wolf? Why did it cause so much worry?


I realised the meaning behind that on my second read.

Direwolf = Stark
Stag/antlers = Baratheon

Antlers in direwolf... pretty easy to grasp the symbolism.




pfft said:


> he was just a dumbass who thought he would be able to tame the dragons.. they aren't just going to naturally adhere to you even if you have the blood in you.
> 
> They barely adhered to Dany and I think that is because of how she seperated herself from them and locked them away. She should have been working with them non stop training them every day..  ofc she doesn't know the exact way to do this..
> 
> ...


Yeah I didn't think he was a fake as well but it seems there are quite a few theories that say he might be. I'd prefer he remained legit, seems there are too many pretenders popping out from nowhere. :/


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## Shrike (Apr 13, 2012)

I started losing who is who when Sansa was seeing Ilyn Payne (sp?) etc for the first time. There were like 20 new names in that chapter so I had to go to the back of the book and see who is who a couple of times. When I finished the first third of the first book though, I got all of the second characters who showed up until then and never had a problem after that. So basically all you need is to survive the beginning.

I would advise you to keep away from this thread since, you know, spoilers and shit. And there is nothing so bad as when you get a good piece of work spoiled.


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## Anarch (Apr 13, 2012)

Fierce said:


> T=T?



which one is that again ? 

And none of them are canon yet . I fear for R+l=J most , it's such a fan favourite that Martin may not go that way at all. He does like to do the unexpected.


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## choco bao bao (Apr 13, 2012)

Anarch said:


> And none of them are canon yet . I fear for R+l=J most , it's such a fan favourite that Martin may not go that way at all. He does like to do the unexpected.


Hmm I think I read somewhere in one of his interviews that says he's already got everything planned out and he's not likely to be influenced by fan-talk.

Like here:


> *Do you know the ending?*
> 
> I know the ending in broad strokes. I don’t know every little twist and turn that will get me there, and I don’t know the ending of every secondary character. But the ending and the main characters, yeah. And [Game of Thrones producers] David Benioff and Dan Weiss know some of that too, which the fans are very worried about in case I get hit by a truck.


Source: Link removed

So as for R+L=J, if he intended it from the beginning, I don't think he'll deviate from that because of fan reactions.


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## Suigetsu (Apr 13, 2012)

About the fking Tv series.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Am I the only one who was bothered about Melisandre being Stanni's whoe in the tv series? I feel like it took out a bit of the character of what made him stannis and made him another power hungry horny char like everyone else in the series.  

Also I liked how Stanni's wife was a fanatic or Rohllr.




Also I really would like to see Dark star vs Ballon swann arghh, do you think he could write a good fight? With Dark Star winning of course.


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## Han Solo (Apr 13, 2012)

"I am of the night"

I hope he dies just for that line.


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## choco bao bao (Apr 13, 2012)

Suigetsu said:


> About the fking Tv series.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


This should go under the  for the TV series.



> Also I really would like to see Dark star vs Ballon swann arghh, *do you think he could write a good fight?* With Dark Star winning of course.


Are you questioning GRRM's fight scenes


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## White (Apr 13, 2012)

My only real problem with the books is the constant introduction of new characters, I've never seen the series so i dont know if its the same, but I'm one of those people who has to give a unique 'face' to every character I come across, even the minor ones which you might never even see again. Oh, and remembering the names I gave the faces too, the worst for that was the kingsguard :/


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## Fierce (Apr 13, 2012)

Anarch said:


> which one is that again ?
> 
> And none of them are canon yet . I fear for R+l=J most , it's such a fan favourite that Martin may not go that way at all. He does like to do the unexpected.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Tyrion = Targaryen




Look it up if you aren't familiar with it. Pretty compelling theory.


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## choco bao bao (Apr 13, 2012)

Fierce said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 



I've heard of that before, but I'll be pretty annoyed if it's true. Though it'd be cool to see Tyrion ride on one of those dragons.


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## Suigetsu (Apr 13, 2012)

Pherenike said:


> This should go under the  for the TV series.
> 
> 
> Are you questioning GRRM's fight scenes



No ima not, I am wondering if he could overdo himself and break his limits


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## Torpedo Titz (Apr 13, 2012)

Darkstar Vs. Balon Swann. Hopefully it's a duel as good as Oberyn Martell Vs. Ser Gregor Clegane was in Storm.


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## Suigetsu (Apr 14, 2012)

Yieeaha, he strikes me as one of the bounty killers from the spaghetti western clint eastwood movies. Heck yeargh!

Btw do you think that the young dragon has any chances of meeting Arya? if he wants the north under his control, marrying her would be the best and easiest choice.


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## Shrike (Apr 14, 2012)

I would so not like the T-T theory to come true.


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## Suigetsu (Apr 14, 2012)

What is this T-T theory?

That targaryen fucks targaryen?

I am sorry but danny is filled with stds and doesnt deserve the shonen saskay targaryen, no way.


So... where could I bring this petition, request to Martin? About the fight?


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## escamoh (Apr 14, 2012)

Han Solo said:


> "I am of the night"
> 
> I hope he dies just for that line.



lol              .


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## Nae'blis (Apr 18, 2012)

Suigetsu said:


> What is this T-T theory?


Tyrion being Aerys' son through rape.

It is just people wanting their favourite character to be a Targaryen. Because how kewl would it be if the three main characters were Targaryens?


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## choco bao bao (Apr 18, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> Tyrion being Aerys' son through rape.
> 
> It is just people wanting their favourite character to be a Targaryen. Because how kewl would it be if the *three main characters* were Targaryens?


Three main characters, three dragon-riders.

Perfect.


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## Nae'blis (Apr 19, 2012)

I vomit at the thought.


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## Han Solo (Apr 19, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> I vomit at the thought.



Yep, that'd be fucking awful.


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## Shrike (Apr 19, 2012)

I really can't think of a worse ''twist''.


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## DemonDragonJ (Apr 19, 2012)

Yes, I also agree the the idea of Tyrion somehow being a Targaryen would be a very foolish idea; the tension between him and his father was a very awesome aspect of his character, and such a twist would greatly undermine it, in my mind.


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## Nae'blis (Apr 20, 2012)

But as Genna Lannister said to Jaime, "Tyrion is Tywin's true son". I'm not sure how prodigious Tywin was as a fighter, but all his cunning and more went to Tyrion.


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## DemonDragonJ (Apr 21, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> But as Genna Lannister said to Jaime, "Tyrion is Tywin's true son". I'm not sure how prodigious Tywin was as a fighter, but all his cunning and more went to Tyrion.



Yes, indeed; I believe that Tywin and Tyrion were actually very similar to each other, although neither of them would ever admit it.


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## josh101 (Apr 22, 2012)

Oh shit. About a third of the way into the second book and I'm surprised at the turn's it took. I thought the dragons at the end of first book were about as "fantasy" as the series would get, but damn. :ho

Giving birth to murderous shadows... wut. And that Jaqen guy is fucking awesome. Loving it so far 

I hope Theon dies a fiery death, little bastard. Hopefully will finish it tomorrow, all though I ordered the third books and they haven't come yet, and I don't trust the postal network over here.


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## Nae'blis (Apr 22, 2012)

I guess the Others in the prologue were not enough.


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## choco bao bao (Apr 22, 2012)

josh101 said:


> *I hope Theon dies a fiery death, little bastard*. Hopefully will finish it tomorrow, all though I ordered the third books and they haven't come yet, and I don't trust the postal network over here.


Don't say that too soon 

Glad you're enjoying them! :3


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## Nae'blis (Apr 22, 2012)

Theon was awesome once he arrived in Pyke. Or maybe a bit during the journey. Between the journey to Pyke and the dinner with his father, best moments. I loved his conversation with his sister before he knew who she was. After that all turns to shit.


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## martryn (Apr 23, 2012)

Go i*c*st!


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## Mr.Blonde (Apr 23, 2012)

Theon's chapters in _Dance_ are nothing short of amazing.


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## cha-uzu (Apr 24, 2012)

josh101 said:


> A question for all you book readers and tv watchers.
> 
> I love the Game of Thrones TV show, love it, what's it like watching it after you've read the book?
> 
> ...



Well the books are like leagues better then the TV show to me, but I do love the show as well. 

One thing thats funny is when i watch the show, it seems like its on speed! Like everything seems so much faster. I mean even the scenes. And also the things they take out and add, that they feel is good for the show isn't always good for the show. One thing is that Khal Drogo could speak the common tongue, I have no idea why he couldn't in the show. 

Also the tv politics as well... 

I would read the books. It doesn't spoil it for me at all because they are a bit different. And watching things play out on screen is quite nice!


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## cha-uzu (Apr 24, 2012)

Anarch said:


> which one is that again ?
> 
> And none of them are canon yet . I fear for R+l=J most , it's such a fan favourite that Martin may not go that way at all. He does like to do the unexpected.



Not really sure he'd change it, as he already knows how the story ends. so i don't believe he would change something like that which would probably be important to the end story. Just my opinion.


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## cha-uzu (Apr 24, 2012)

Suigetsu said:


> About the fking Tv series.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Although I thought the scene was pointless, The books hint at there being a relationship between Stannis and Melly.


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## cha-uzu (Apr 24, 2012)

MrBlonde said:


> Theon's chapters in _Dance_ are nothing short of amazing.


Exactly!


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## Taleran (Apr 28, 2012)

So I am 500 pages into DoD and something really irks me.


*Spoiler*: __ 



The Aegon reveal seems like 11th hour plotting and an ass pull on George's part. I get that it was a tad foreshadowed in Book 1 but it is still right out of left field and adds more complications for the sake of them.


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## choco bao bao (Apr 28, 2012)

Taleran said:


> So I am 500 pages into DoD and something really irks me.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


That got me annoyed too. It makes everything seem vague and immensely unpredictable and it just left me with a bad taste in my mouth. I?m not sure what GRRM wants to achieve here: is this a relevant twist to the overall plot or just a random plot device? I really hope it?s the former.


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## Fierce (Apr 28, 2012)

It's only an ass pull if he's real.


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## cha-uzu (Apr 30, 2012)

There are many pretenders....


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## josh101 (May 1, 2012)

Just finished the red wedding in book three. Knew that Rob died but fuck it's going to suck now he's gone.


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## DemonDragonJ (May 1, 2012)

I wonder what great disaster shall befall House Tyrell, being that nearly every other major noble house has experienced trouble and strife? What does everyone else say about that?


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## Fierce (May 1, 2012)

I mean....last we heard, Loras has one foot in the grave.


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## josh101 (May 1, 2012)

looooooooooooooool.

Joffrey done by a fucking pigeon pie. So glad after he what was doing to Tyrion, but now the whore Cersei thinks Tyrion did it?


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## DemonDragonJ (May 1, 2012)

josh101 said:


> Joffrey done by a fucking pigeon pie. So glad after he what was doing to Tyrion, but now the whore Cersei thinks Tyrion did it?



Cersei was never fond of Tyrion, so, despite the sheer improbability of him being responsible for Joffrey's death, she is blaming him, as he is a convenient target for her hatred and desire for revenge.

Also, on that subject, in _A Dance with Dragons,_ Tyrion hinted at having feelings of hatred for both of his siblings. I can understand him not being fond of Cersei, but why would he hate Jaime? If I recall correctly, Jaime was one of the few people who treated Tyrion with respect and dignity, when nearly everyone else shunned him because of his short statue.


----------



## Fierce (May 1, 2012)

Because when Jaime frees Tyrion before his execution at the end of Storm, he admits to lying about Tysha (Tyrion's first love) actually being a whore he hired...she wasn't. Tyrion's pissed at him for that.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (May 2, 2012)

Fierce said:


> Because when Jaime frees Tyrion before his execution at the end of Storm, he admits to lying about Tysha (Tyrion's first love) actually being a whore he hired...she wasn't. Tyrion's pissed at him for that.



Yes, I can understand Tyrion being angry about that, but it seems rather extreme for him to want to kill Jaime for that, in my mind.


----------



## Fierce (May 2, 2012)

He'll get over it, but you'd be pretty pissed too if you found out the love of your life wasn't actually a hired whore like you were told when you were forced to get rid of her. Especially after she was raped by a bunch of Lannister soldiers.


----------



## cha-uzu (May 2, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Cersei was never fond of Tyrion, so, despite the sheer improbability of him being responsible for Joffrey's death, she is blaming him, as he is a convenient target for her hatred and desire for revenge.
> 
> Also, on that subject, in _A Dance with Dragons,_ Tyrion hinted at having feelings of hatred for both of his siblings. I can understand him not being fond of Cersei, but why would he hate Jaime? If I recall correctly, Jaime was one of the few people who treated Tyrion with respect and dignity, when nearly everyone else shunned him because of his short statue.


Jaime aided in getting him to believe his wife was a whore which led to the rape of his wife by dozens of men as well as tyrion himself... Ye he should Hate him.


----------



## Nae'blis (May 2, 2012)

I think she was raped by a whole barracks of guardsmen before Tyrion was told to have his turn. Tyrion loved Jaime most for that one kindness... and it turned out to be a lie.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (May 7, 2012)

I am still in the second book, but I got spoiled on what happened to Theon... and it sounded similar to what happened to Griffith in Berserk


----------



## masamune1 (May 8, 2012)

Apart from the whole "sell my soul, become a demon, turn into an utter evil bastard and try to take over the world" thing, you mean.


----------



## Anarch (May 8, 2012)

Can anyone give me links for the sample WoW chapter(s) that are out ?


----------



## Mr.Blonde (May 8, 2012)

Here's every bit of spoiler available:


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## Anarch (May 8, 2012)

^ thanks man


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## Torpedo Titz (May 8, 2012)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> I am still in the second book, but I got spoiled on what happened to Theon... and it sounded similar to what happened to Griffith in Berserk



There's maybe a scarce handful of _events_ in Theon's story that are similar to Griffith's, but that's where the similarities end. Because Griffith and Theon are completely different _beings_. One's ambition is driven by reality, the other by his belief that he is owed something according to his lineage. In other words, the actions of the two and the reasons that underpin these actions differ wildly.

Other than the whole ''rise then fall, [then rise again for Griffith],'' they're nothing alike in character or story.

I decided to buy GoT again because of the shineh cover, and reread Bran's chapter with Old Nan, about the last hero. The way he was described reminded me a lot of Jon; although many love to romanticise Jon as being Azhor Azhai - or maybe they're one and the same?


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## Mr.Blonde (May 8, 2012)

^What anime is that in your sig?


----------



## DemonDragonJ (May 8, 2012)

So, what may happen to House Frey? Now that they have clearly shown that they are traitors, no other house or faction shall ever trust them again, plus, the heinous nature of their betrayal hes left me hoping that they shall receive a very harsh comeuppance.


----------



## Torpedo Titz (May 8, 2012)

MrBlonde said:


> ^What anime is that in your sig?



It's from the second Berserk movie.


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## martryn (May 8, 2012)

> It's from the second Berserk movie.



Aw.  An answer.  I should have been more patient.  I guess I can't take the rep back...


----------



## Torpedo Titz (May 8, 2012)

martryn said:


> Aw.  An answer.  I should have been more patient.  I guess I can't take the rep back...



You can't. 

Slightly off-topic here, but I nicked the set from the trailer for the second movie, which is being released in Japan sometime in June (English release much later). Although the CGI is a little iffy at times, it's still a welcome improvement on the '97 anime series.

Trailer.


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## Magnum Miracles (May 10, 2012)

So, I just finished A Clash of Kings. It was awesome, and I am loving this series. 

I've hated fantasy for quite some time now, because fantasy usually focus on world building and talk about descriptions for 3 pages.

A Song of Ice & Fire is different though. It's like a medieval political thriller, with beautiful characters to help drive a complex plot. Definitely one of my favorite book series of all time. It was wrong of me to put down this series just because of my distaste for fantasy, and now I'm eagerly anticipating A Storm of Swords.


----------



## choco bao bao (May 10, 2012)

Magnum Bookworm said:


> So, I just finished A Clash of Kings. It was awesome, and I am loving this series.
> 
> I've hated fantasy for quite some time now, because fantasy usually focus on world building and talk about descriptions for 3 pages.
> 
> A Song of Ice & Fire is different though. It's like a medieval political thriller, with beautiful characters to help drive a complex plot. Definitely one of my favorite book series of all time. It was wrong of me to put down this series just because of my distaste for fantasy, and now I'm eagerly anticipating A Storm of Swords.


Glad you're enjoying it! You'll be even more blown away by _A Storm of Swords_


----------



## Taleran (May 11, 2012)

Magnum Bookworm said:


> So, I just finished A Clash of Kings. It was awesome, and I am loving this series.
> 
> I've hated fantasy for quite some time now, because fantasy usually focus on world building and talk about descriptions for 3 pages.
> 
> A Song of Ice & Fire is different though. It's like a medieval political thriller, with beautiful characters to help drive a complex plot. Definitely one of my favorite book series of all time. It was wrong of me to put down this series just because of my distaste for fantasy, and now I'm eagerly anticipating A Storm of Swords.



I don't want to sound condescending but what Fantasy had you read to create those feelings?


----------



## Magnum Miracles (May 11, 2012)

Taleran said:


> I don't want to sound condescending but what Fantasy had you read to create those feelings?



Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, and Eragon.


----------



## Nae'blis (May 11, 2012)

^                     lol.


----------



## Fierce (May 11, 2012)

LotR is amazing, and Harry Potter was great for what it was.


----------



## Anarch (May 12, 2012)

Harry Potter had pages on world building and description


----------



## Torpedo Titz (May 12, 2012)

ASOIAF has a fair amount of ''world building,'' by way of certain characters such as Ser Jorah, Varys, Ser Barristan, Doran etc., explaining about the many extinct Targaryen House branches, inter-house conflict and past events that are relatively alien to the current timeline. None of which is particularly important to current events, but are discussed nonetheless to, well... build the world; or rather give some flesh to the bones.

Unless ''world building'' is being used exclusively for locations... when in actuality is encompasses much more than the physical.

It might not be Tolkienesque, but what is?


----------



## Nae'blis (May 13, 2012)

Martin takes an almost perverse pleasure in laying out the specifics of the meals characters are having. I'd say he spent as much time on that than Tolkien did on Minas Tirith.


----------



## Taleran (May 13, 2012)

Yeah and he often goes into the depth of the houses and banner men that we really don't need to know every single name of. Certain chapters are incredibly tiresome for that.


----------



## martryn (May 15, 2012)

> I've hated fantasy for quite some time now, because fantasy usually focus on world building and talk about descriptions for 3 pages.



You should read the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.  It's almost entirely character driven.  In fact, the world is called simply, The Land.


----------



## Pineapples (May 15, 2012)




----------



## Dragonus Nesha (May 15, 2012)

Wish I could send that to my friend but he's only in _Clash of Kings_.


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## pfft (May 15, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> Martin takes an almost perverse pleasure in laying out the specifics of the meals characters are having. I'd say he spent as much time on that than Tolkien did on Minas Tirith.



I thought he did that to show us how the whole world is becoming more and more fucked. I mean you see how various people are starving or barely surviving on meager scraps with bacon grease bread and maybe part of a sliver of sausage as the war keeps going on etc.. and how some people are still eating up like fat cats because they are apart of the ignorantly wealthy not yet fully fucked yet.  Its the story within the story.. his devil in the details shit.. which i fucking love.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (May 16, 2012)

Cant wait to see Euron awakening his mangekyo and conquering Westeros


----------



## Whimsy (May 16, 2012)

pfft said:


> I thought he did that to show us how the whole world is becoming more and more fucked. I mean you see how various people are starving or barely surviving on meager scraps with bacon grease bread and maybe part of a sliver of sausage as the war keeps going on etc.. and how some people are still eating up like fat cats because they are apart of the ignorantly wealthy not yet fully fucked yet.  Its the story within the story.. his devil in the details shit.. which i fucking love.



I think it's because he loves eating


----------



## Magnum Miracles (May 27, 2012)

Just finished a Storm of Swords. It is the best of the series! Now I'm waiting on A Feast for Crows.

Littlefinger is such a troll .


----------



## Magnum Miracles (May 27, 2012)

Could I read A Feast for Crows & A Dance with Dragons at the same time? Because i heard they both take place right after the end of a Storm of Swords.


----------



## Fierce (May 27, 2012)

You can read them concurrently. I'm sure you can Google it. People have laid out what order to read the chapters in. Personally, I'd recommend reading them one at a time your first time through, though.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (May 27, 2012)

Fierce said:


> You can read them concurrently. I'm sure you can Google it. People have laid out what order to read the chapters in. Personally, I'd recommend reading them one at a time your first time through, though.



Yes, that is possible, but I would not recommend doing that, as some events in _A Dance with Dragons_ are set after events in _A Feast for Crows;_ I suggest that you read the books in the order in which they were published.


----------



## Magnum Miracles (May 28, 2012)

Okay, that's what I'll do. Probably would be too difficult to flip through both books. ...

Thanks guys.


----------



## josh101 (May 28, 2012)

Finally finished. I'm going to miss being able to pick them up and read whenever I want to, book 6 looks like it could take an eternity to come out. 

Cersei really is a dumb bitch. 

I hope Aegon takes the relm.


----------



## αce (May 28, 2012)

Did Cersei kill Robert's bastards in the books?


----------



## josh101 (May 28, 2012)

^ Yes. She made the orders. The killings went pretty much the same as the show.


----------



## cha-uzu (Jun 1, 2012)

King Stannis is the one true king.


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## Anarch (Jun 1, 2012)

None of the Baratheons are true Kings really


----------



## Fierce (Jun 1, 2012)

Well...usurping the throne from the dynasty that conquered the realm gives you as much right to be king as those who crowned themselves to begin with.


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## Mr.Blonde (Jun 1, 2012)

Pretty much. The Targaryens themselves were kings by right of conquest, and so was Robert.


----------



## Anarch (Jun 1, 2012)

Why just extend your logic to dynasties then ? Anyone who wins the throne by right of conquest is the rightful King then - Renly , Balon who ever


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 1, 2012)

House Baratheon does have Targaryen blood, as Orys was the half-brother of Aegon I and there have been marriages between the two. Claim can be made through that.


----------



## Mr.Blonde (Jun 1, 2012)

Anarch said:


> Why just extend your logic to dynasties then ? Anyone who wins the throne by right of conquest is the rightful King then - Renly , Balon who ever



No arguments there. But that's only after they win the throne. While the throne is still in dispute however, the current king/dynasty is the rightful one. If and when they get replaced, then the usurper will become legitimized. Victory has that effect.

Robert was an usurper, until he won. After he won, he was the rightful king. "_By right of birth and blood"_ Stannis, as his heir, is now the rightful king.


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## Fierce (Jun 1, 2012)

Anarch said:


> Why just extend your logic to dynasties then ? Anyone who wins the throne by right of conquest is the rightful King then - Renly , Balon who ever



Yeah, but if you keep going that way, noone is the rightful king. At least as far as the current monarchy goes, Stannis is the heir.


----------



## Cyphon (Jun 1, 2012)

Someone posted a chapter from book 6 awhile back. Has there been more than that one? I believe it was a Stannis chapter where he talked to Theon.


----------



## masamune1 (Jun 1, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> Someone posted a chapter from book 6 awhile back. Has there been more than that one? I believe it was a Stannis chapter where he talked to Theon.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlJblxV3QHQ&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

Start at 30:00.


----------



## Anarch (Jun 2, 2012)

It was a Theon chapter in Stannis' tent. Stannis doesn't have a POV.

Here , a pdf with all or most WoW spoilers.


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## IronFist Alchemist (Jun 2, 2012)

Reading A Feast for Crows again and....it's not as terrible as I remember it being, haha.


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## Magnum Miracles (Jun 2, 2012)

Reading A Feast for Crows. Just got done with Cersei's first chapter. 

Really liking it so far, Cersei is officially batshit insane now.


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Jun 2, 2012)

Reading A Feast For Crows, and it's another boring-as-shit Samwell chapter. They're on the ship, and Maester Aemon is going on about dragons, and Sam's telling him he's too old for that shit.

I think I'm going to die.


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## Magnum Miracles (Jun 2, 2012)

Is everything else BESIDES Sam good though, LB?


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (Jun 2, 2012)

I'm really liking the story from the characters from Dorne. Arianne, Captain of the Guards, etc, demonstrate what Prince Doran Martell, brother to Oberyn Martell, does, but he himself isn't a POV character. Brienne chapters might seem boring, but they're kind of interesting, actually. She just further illustrates how trustworthy/good she is. Sansa is learning to play Littlefinger's game, and is quick to adapt. Jaime starts thinking of living his life and actually looks at his legacy, and Cersei tries to play the game and is making decisions based on her distrust of the Tyrells and her unwillingness to believe Jaime/Ser Kevan Lannister (her uncle)/Pycelle, because they're not helping her out. It doesn't help half the people Cersei has to scheme with are nigh-retarded.


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## ashher (Jun 2, 2012)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Reading A Feast For Crows, and it's another boring-as-shit Samwell chapter. They're on the ship, and Maester Aemon is going on about dragons, and Sam's telling him he's too old for that shit.
> 
> I think I'm going to die.



feast for crows deals a lot with the minor characters...sam being one of them. even then the storyline does reach an interesting point from sam pov too, at the end of the book.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jun 2, 2012)

ashher said:


> feast for crows deals a lot with the minor characters...sam being one of them. even then the storyline does reach an interesting point from sam pov too, at the end of the book.



He just met Arya, and I'm on the Jaime chapter after that, where he went to Harrenhal. I think it's picking up.


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## ashher (Jun 2, 2012)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> I'm really liking the story from the characters from Dorne. Arianne, Captain of the Guards, etc, demonstrate what Prince Doran Martell, brother to Oberyn Martell, does, but he himself isn't a POV character. Brienne chapters might seem boring, but they're kind of interesting, actually. She just further illustrates how trustworthy/good she is. Sansa is learning to play Littlefinger's game, and is quick to adapt. Jaime starts thinking of living his life and actually looks at his legacy, and Cersei tries to play the game and is making decisions based on her distrust of the Tyrells and her unwillingness to believe Jaime/Ser Kevan Lannister (her uncle)/Pycelle, because they're not helping her out.* It doesn't help half the people Cersei has to scheme with are nigh-retarded.*



i can see from your sigs and avy that you are a cersei fan, but honestly speaking she herself is half retarded and doesn't really need anybody else to bring her down. 

its not that she can't be intelligent. its her huge ego and refusal to understand other ppl is what actually limits her to low level of cunning and nothing more.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jun 2, 2012)

ashher said:


> i can see from your sigs and avy that you are a cersei fan, but honestly speaking she herself is half retarded and doesn't really need anybody else to bring her down.
> 
> its not that she can't be intelligent. its her huge ego and refusal to understand other ppl is what actually limits her to low level of cunning and nothing more.



I can understand that. Jaime noted that she did not lack wits, she simply didn't have judgment or patience. I'm just saying that perhaps her plans would have a marginally better success rate if she were conspiring with people like Petyr or Varys especially. But, of course, that's impossible.


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## ashher (Jun 2, 2012)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> *He just met Arya*, and I'm on the Jaime chapter after that, where he went to Harrenhal. I think it's picking up.



not much is gonna come out of their meeting. when i said that sam's storyline do reach an interesting point, i don't mean anything dramatic...but what i mean is that he actually brings in some other guys into the scope of the story...who promise to be interesting.


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## ashher (Jun 2, 2012)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> I can understand that. Jaime noted that she did not lack wits, she simply didn't have judgment or patience. I'm just saying that perhaps her plans would have a marginally better success rate if she were conspiring with people like Petyr or Varys especially. But, of course, that's impossible.



yeah that's true. petyr baelish is one character whose motive or allegiance is still not made clear. varys's allegiance seems to lie with 
*Spoiler*: __ 



targeryans


.


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## αce (Jun 2, 2012)

So much GOT talk.


----------



## Mr.Blonde (Jun 3, 2012)

ashher said:


> yeah that's true. petyr baelish is one character whose motive or allegiance is still not made clear. varys's allegiance seems to lie with
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but Littlefinger's motives and allegiance are _very_ clear. He wants as much power as he can get(probably the Iron Throne), wants to spite all of those who laughed at him and treated him like shit because of his low birth, and he wants Sansa, aka neo-Catelyn.
His allegiance is to himself.


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## ashher (Jun 3, 2012)

MrBlonde said:


> I'm sorry but Littlefinger's motives and allegiance are _very_ clear. He wants as much power as he can get(probably the Iron Throne), wants to spite all of those who laughed at him and treated him like shit because of his low birth, and he wants Sansa, aka neo-Catelyn.
> His allegiance is to himself.



then he probably should've 
*Spoiler*: __ 



married sansa himself...there was no need to go through the trouble of going to vale of arryn. by marrying sansa he could've become the lord of winterfell and harrenhal. unless he knows that bran and rickon are actually alive




anyways if littlefinger actually aspires to sit on throne itself(a very difficult thing for someone low born like him)...i think i'll actually cheer for him. anyways its not been made clear in the books yet.


----------



## The Imp (Jun 3, 2012)

ashher said:


> then he probably should've
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Throughout the series I've never had the impression that he wants to sit on the throne... he just wants to control the person that does. If his plans from Feast work out he will have indirect control over 3 of the kingdoms that make up most of the Rebel's Alliance in Robert's Rebellion. He's in a really strong position to try and make a power play and put a puppet on the throne in the near future.


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## martryn (Jun 3, 2012)

I started the series not really liking Littlefinger and under the general impression that he was one of the "bad" guys.  My perception has completely changed with the most recent book.  He's certainly a schemer of epic level, but I generally think he's looking out for the best interests of Sansa because he cares for her.  And that makes him alright in my book.  If he wants more power, he deserves it, though he has always had power to begin with. 

Feast was an interesting book.  The Dorne chapters were my highlight, and though it doesn't really change pace for most of the novel, if you consider just the last PoV's of every character, that's probably my favorite chapters in the series so far.


----------



## Butō Rengoob (Jun 3, 2012)

Finished Feast a few days ago. Overall pretty boring, the Dorne, Greyjoy and Jaime chapters were by far the best.


----------



## ashher (Jun 4, 2012)

martryn said:


> I started the series not really liking Littlefinger and under the general impression that he was one of the "bad" guys.  My perception has completely changed with the most recent book.  He's certainly a schemer of epic level, but I generally think he's looking out for the best interests of Sansa because he cares for her.  And that makes him alright in my book.  If he wants more power, he deserves it, though he has always had power to begin with.
> 
> Feast was an interesting book.  The Dorne chapters were my highlight, and though it doesn't really change pace for most of the novel, if you consider just the last PoV's of every character, that's probably my favorite chapters in the series so far.



i liked feast too. even though i was at first disappointed to see that many of my fav characters are missing/not as prominent as i'd have liked them to, once i accepted that the book actually read pretty good. it did quite a wonderful job to stretch the scope, bringing in new factors aside from starks and lannisters (dorne and martell and citadel)


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## Mr.Blonde (Jun 4, 2012)

Let's talk a bit about Tyrion.

Does anyone else find themselves liking characters(more) specifically because they recognize Tyrion's merits, and that he's not the monster everyone thinks him to be? Bronn, Varys, Garlan Tyrell, Balon Swann, even Illyrio Mopatis. 
Well Bronn and Varys are great characters in their own rights, but Garlan Tyrell and Balon Swann went from barely on my radar to some of my favorite minor characters specifically becaused they recognized Tyrion's greatness.

There's a particular scene in _Storm_, during Joffrey's wedding:


> Lady Leonette giggled. “Perhaps you should be a singer, my lord. You rhyme as well as this Galyeon.”
> “No, my lady,” Ser Garlan said. “My lord of Lannister was made to do great deeds, not to sing of them. But for his chain and his wildfire, the foe would have been across the river. And if Tyrion’s wildlings had not slain most of Lord Stannis’s scouts, we would never have been able to take him unawares.”


I _loved_ Garlan at that moment.


----------



## Fierce (Jun 4, 2012)

Yeah, I've always liked Garlan, from the little we've seen of him.

[YOUTUBE]kL7RWUva7ak[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## ashher (Jun 5, 2012)

anybody else thinks bran should be one of the dragon riders? that's the first thing that came to my mind when i read the winged wolf part.

about tyrion, though i really like his character(come on, is it even possible not to like him)...but i guess i don't just like other characters simply cause they are fair to him.


----------



## Anarch (Jun 5, 2012)

In the beginning I thought so too but then Bran turned into a tree so no , not anymore.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jun 5, 2012)

implying his becoming a tree isn't the only way to awaken the dragons beneath the ice.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 5, 2012)

I am particularly interested to learn more about Sansa and Littlefinger, after their absence from _A Dance with Dragons,_ as their story seemed to be fairly intriguing. I wonder for how much longer the Vale can remain relatively uninvolved in the political turmoil that is currently engulfing much of Westeros?

I also am very eager to learn if that truly was Brienne whom Jaime encountered at the end of _A Dance with Dragons,_ and, if so, how she escaped from her captors at the end of _A Feast for Crows._


----------



## FitzChivalry (Jun 6, 2012)

Funny that you bring up Sansa and Littlefinger, as I was floating a theory out there a couple of hours ago that Sansa could be the next Lady of the Vale. With all of the players vying for Winterfell, I think the chances of Sansa swooping in and claiming it now, when the situation in the north is so tense and tumultuous, are very slim. Plus, she's still legally married to Tyrion Lannister--who is making his return to Westeros with a ton of sellswords at his back--who could be made Lord of Winterfell if Sansa were to come back and reclaim it. As Robb and Catelyn have proven, northmen would much rather a Lannister _not_ sit at Winterfell than have Sansa there, Stark or not.

Observing all of this, Littlefinger, having a soft spot for her, might just offer Sansa up the Vale as nice "little" consolation prize. In the end, it would be safer for her and a lot less messy.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 6, 2012)

FitzChivalry said:


> Plus, she's still legally married to Tyrion Lannister--who is making his return to Westeros with a ton of sellswords at his back--who could be made Lord of Winterfell if Sansa were to come back and reclaim it.



Is that true? It has been some time since I read the books, but I thought that Tyrion was currently seeking to meet with Daenerys, and that he also had no love for Westeros or desire to return there.

I really hope that he does not return, or that, if he does, his brief marriage to Sansa is somehow forgotten or annulled, because that could create major complications for Sansa. Plus, Tyrion was no more pleased with the marriage than was she, so why would he even care about it?


----------



## Fierce (Jun 6, 2012)

If anyone wants to read AFFC and ADWD at the same time.



I wouldn't recommend doing this for your first read of both books, though.


----------



## FitzChivalry (Jun 6, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Is that true? It has been some time since I read the books, but I thought that Tyrion was currently seeking to meet with Daenerys, and that he also had no love for Westeros or desire to return there.
> 
> I really hope that he does not return, or that, if he does, his brief marriage to Sansa is somehow forgotten or annulled, because that could create major complications for Sansa. Plus, Tyrion was no more pleased with the marriage than was she, so why would he even care about it?


Have you read A Dance With Dragons? Well, then. Just in case:


*Spoiler*: _ADWD spoilers_ 



Tyrion trying to set a rendezvous with Daenerys was the original plan. If I recall correctly, Tyrion had always planned to go back to Westeros. He wants Casterly Rock, which is his by rights. What he wanted to do was get on Dany's small council, hitch a ride with her back to Westeros, aid her against his family that he loathes, and sit Dany on the Iron Throne. As a reward I think he might have wanted her tor reward him with Casterly Rock. This is off the top of my head, so I might be a little off.

What I do remember very clearly—since it was so shocking, even despite their bitter opposition of one another—was that Tyrion wanted to rape and murder Cersei. He was very serious about that one.

Of course, like with many plans in the Ice and Fire universe, it didn't quite shake out that way. He never got to meet Dany, he ran into a bunch of sellswords, struck a deal with them, and now he's headed back to Westeros with them. I believe the sellswords are called the Golden Company.



If you have read the book and I just wasted my time summarizing, then yes, I don't think that marriage was ever annulled or dissolved. Likewise, it was never consummated. I don't know of any loopholes Sansa might be able to exploit with Littlefinger's help as a result of that, but unless I'm forgetting something, they're very much still married. And no, neither wanted it, but Tyrion should still be very much in play where Sansa is involved, and he's on his way back to Westeros right now. 

Tyrion (and Jon and Robb's royal documentation) is someone Littlefinger never accounted for in his plan.


----------



## Fierce (Jun 6, 2012)

ADWD


*Spoiler*: __ 



Tyrion is with the Second Sons, a smaller company of sellswords. Jon Connington and Aegon are with the Golden Company, the biggest group of sellswords. I actually don't think Tyrion was headed back to Westeros yet, if I recall correctly. He was trying to get the Second Sons to go back over to Dany.


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## FitzChivalry (Jun 6, 2012)

Fierce said:


> ADWD
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Ah, I see. Thanks.
*Spoiler*: __ 



I remembered him signing a ton of coin away in the event that they got Casterly Rock, and not giving a fuck about it, haha. If he's still trying to meet with Dany, that's fine by me. That'd be an interesting encounter. Barristan's honor would probably make him stroke out when he learns what Tyrion did to his father, no matter Barristan's feelings for Tywin.




*EDIT*
I skimmed A Feast For Crows. My theory's not as good as I'd originally thought. I just theorized half of Littlefinger's plan. He plan to wed Sansa, who would reveal herself as a trueborn Stark, to the next in line of succession after Robert Arryn died, effectively giving her Winterfell and Eyrie at the same time. Where I come in is, if Winterfell was deemed too hot, most of Littlefinger's plan could still go off without a hitch. Though I wonder how Sansa might react to someone else ruling Winterfell and not her. It's her's. Or was, until Robb wrote what he wrote.


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## josh101 (Jun 12, 2012)

I shouldn't of finished the books so quickly, so long to wait for the next one. What do you reckon? Another 4 years?


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## martryn (Jun 12, 2012)

It might be another year or two, but I don't think we'll have to wait as long this time around.  Bide your time.  Have you read any Stephen R. Donaldson?  The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant is a really good series.  Two trilogies, and then a final set of four novels to finish her off.  

What about the Name of the Wind and Wise Man's Fear?  A bit different in tone, but still really well written, and the entire thing reads almost like a tragedy waiting to happen in my opinion.


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## Shrike (Jun 13, 2012)

I'd say about 4 years until the next book, but who knows with Martin. I had hoped it would be more like 1 or 2 years wait, but with him saying that the last two books will both be 1500 pages manuscripts and with him working on many others things as well, I don't see WoW being released soon.


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## josh101 (Jun 14, 2012)

So GRRM has a series of novella based on SoIaF out? Can anyone give a quick explanation on what they're about and if they're worth a read?


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## Fierce (Jun 14, 2012)

Dunk and Egg novellas. Chronicles the meeting and subsequent adventures of Aegon V and Ser Duncan the Tall. They're both mentioned a couple times in the actual series. Definitely worth reading. The Hedge Knight is first, then The Sworn Sword, then The Mystery Knight. In terms of quality, imo Hedge Knight > Mystery Knight > Sworn Sword.


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## Mr.Blonde (Jun 14, 2012)

Hedge Knight and Sword Sword are also in visual novel/comic format. They're excellent, I must say...


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## Corruption (Jun 14, 2012)

They're a good read. Gives some insight on a certain mysterious character in the series.


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## Fruit Monger (Jun 14, 2012)

Not sure what the etiquette here is, so I'm just going to put my question in wraps. 


*Spoiler*: _ADWD_ 



-What is the general opinion here of the future of Young Griff and his companions (Jon Connington & Lemore in particular)? 

-Any theories about who he really is (Targaryen pretender)?  

-Who is Septa Lemore? Will her heritage be significant?

-Even though his role seemed very small, what significance would you like Gerold Dayne to have in the future?


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## Nae'blis (Jun 14, 2012)

I think Aegon is trying to make himself another Dragonknight... and I sincerely hope he succeeds. Love how he plans to casually stroll into the Seven Kingdoms and conquer everything with his own sword.  Basically what Viserys should have been.

Don't really know the role Darkstar will play, but I'm starting to love House Dayne. But his strokes are piss poor for a knight if Myrcella is any indication.


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## Fierce (Jun 14, 2012)

Fruit Monger said:


> Not sure what the etiquette here is, so I'm just going to put my question in wraps.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _ADWD_
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



My initial opinion was that Young Griff, even if he doesn't know it himself, is not really Aegon. Despite the many theories and ideas, noone has said much to convince me otherwise. It's possible he's a Blackfyre (the last?), aka a bastard Targaryen.

Jon Connington will likely die in some important battle. He wants to die. He has Greyscale.

I remember reading a theory about Septa Lemore being Ashara Dayne, and thinking it would be interesting. I don't remember if anyone made a compelling argument about why it can't be her. There's also a theory about her being the mother of Tyene Sand (The Red Viper fathered her on a supposed Septa)

I expect Darkstar to kill Balon Swann. Not sure exactly what he's up to though.


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## Fruit Monger (Jun 15, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I like that he's moving headlong into battle also, and you're right, this is what Viserys should have been doing (or at least wanted to do).  Since his character is more admirable than Viserys, you want to root for him.

As to Darkstar, no one actually witnessed his attack on Marcella.  If he is such a dangerous person as Arianne and Doran claims, you can't help but think if he intentionally maimed her instead of attempting to kill her.  Darkstar does seem to be quite sinister, similar to Ramsay.






Fierce said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Young Griff being a Blackfyre seems interesting and would be a pretty good twist.  That would eventually lead to Dany vs Young Griff?

Ashara Dayne?!  I don't think I like that.  The whole dead characters are actually alive (or semi-alive) concept seems kind of played out.  Lemore being Tyene mother is more agreeable to me, it makes the Martell-Targaryen link even stronger.

I think he will kill Swann also, I think it's too early for him to go down.


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## Nae'blis (Jun 16, 2012)

I don't particularly remember the scene with Myrcella, so I don't know if Dayne was trying to kill her or maim her. But considering the outcome with him and Oakheart, I think it was intended that she be killed. Need to read the series another time.


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## hcheng02 (Jun 17, 2012)

I haven't read A Dance with Dragons yet but I have heard many fans complain about Daenarys character being derailed in it and that they hate her development there. Can someone explain to me why?


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## martryn (Jun 17, 2012)

> I haven't read A Dance with Dragons yet but I have heard many fans complain about Daenarys character being derailed in it and that they hate her development there. Can someone explain to me why?



She acts more like a flighty teenage girl and less like a strong leader.  If you have younger teenage sisters, and you find them irritating, or you dislike how blond teenage girls can be at times, then you'll not be happy with Dany's development in this book, though I guess it's pretty realistic, all things considered. 

She does redeem herself a little bit in her last chapter, though.


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## hcheng02 (Jun 17, 2012)

martryn said:


> She acts more like a flighty teenage girl and less like a strong leader.  If you have younger teenage sisters, and you find them irritating, or you dislike how blond teenage girls can be at times, then you'll not be happy with Dany's development in this book, though I guess it's pretty realistic, all things considered.
> 
> She does redeem herself a little bit in her last chapter, though.



What exactly did she do?


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## martryn (Jun 17, 2012)

> What exactly did she do?



Act like a teenage girl the entire book.  Going into specifics would pretty much require me to retype her entire chapters on the forums.  It's best if you just read the novel yourself.


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## Magnum Miracles (Jun 17, 2012)

Finished AFFC today, and got past the prologue of A Dance with Dragons.

AFFC was really not that bad. Sure, some of the side-characters were a big boring, but for the most part it was good.


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## Shinigami Perv (Jun 19, 2012)

hcheng02 said:


> What exactly did she do?



She hemmed and hawed throughout the entire book. Almost every action she took was eventually reversed, and there was no progress whatsoever on her ultimate goal. Until the very last chapter, I don't think she did a single thing that would have any lasting consequence. Martin has hit a writer's block and can't figure out how he wants her to land in Westeros, so he just makes her putz around to kill time. Many will see this as out of character because Dany's actions are typically dramatic and have long-term plot implications. By titling the book _Dance with Dragons_, he implied major progress with Dany's story that never happened. 

Dany is still the amazing character, but it's clear Martin is mismanaging her badly. Her story and especially Tyrion's are utter disasters, any decent editor would have shit-canned these POV and forced Martin to start over.


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## Fierce (Jun 19, 2012)

Yeah, I don't feel that way. At least not of Tyrion's chapters. Definitely a misleading title for the book, though.


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## Magnum Miracles (Jun 19, 2012)

Snow is one cold-hearted bastard in this book. Taking charge, and killing the boy .


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## masamune1 (Jun 21, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao4HVlV7wZU&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzw2ZiMt3y4&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6r9CdNenuk&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]


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## Nae'blis (Jun 21, 2012)

Daenerys was a good character in every other book but the previous one. Roy Dotrice didn't really help much in that regard either. Roy Dotrice is fucking legendary borderline Stephen Fry level for everything before _Dance with Dragons_. That's the problem with having a substantial gap between releases: narrators forget how they do certain voices, and in a series which has over 100 speaking characters with idiosyncratic mannerisms... I don't really blame him.


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Jun 21, 2012)

Raise a hand if you reacted like this when reading the Red Wedding : "What?! No! NO! NO, NO, NO, NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Robb, hide somewhere. Hey, Grey Wind! Where are you, boy? Grey Wind save Robb!! Please save Robb! NOO! Catelyn, you dumb bitch, don't just stand there and kill that whoreson Walder. NOO! Dumb bitch, no one is going to care for a retard. 
Robb, listen to Catelyn, just run. Run and revenge. NOOO! Please not Robb. Take Catelyn but spare Robb and Grey Wind... Everything was going so good at CoK. This can't be happening..."



Kind of had the same reaction when The Hound died. Hated Arya for a while because she left him there dying. Little bitch 



Any of you on Link removed ? It's awesome.

What are everyone's thoughts on these theories, topics and predictions :


R+L=J

Ned + Ashara Dayne = Jon

Aegon + Joanna = Tyrion (99% canon)

Green Grace = the Harpy

Mummer's dragon (fake Targ) is Young Griff aka Aegon Blackfyre. 

Varys = Blackfyre 

The Three dragons = Dany, Tyrion and ... BBP, Bran, Jon, Edrik Storm (?) , Gendry (?). Pretty sure it won't be Aegon.

Bloodraven = 3 eyed crow = Mormont's raven through warging

Bran = The Great Other

Jaimie = PtwP

Coldhands = Benjen Stark, Night's King or someone else

Is Lord of Light and the whole R'hllor religion a sham, including the Azor Ahai prophecy?

The Lightbringer = Nights Watch

How much will Bran influence the events of SoIaF through his greenseer powers? 

Is Jon dead? Could he still survive if someone interfers? Will Melissandre ressurect him? Will he become the Great Other? Will he ressurect as PtwP or Azor Ahai? Will he become a powerful Other commander? 

Will Jorah become the 999th (or 1000th if it takes longer to get to the Wall) Lord Commander? Old Bear's dying wish was for Jorah to become the new Lord Commander and he forgave him for all his sins and bad deeds.

Imo, with Jon out of the picture, Jorah is exactly what the Wall needs right now. 


What will become of Nights Watch and all the wildlings?

How did Stannis "die" and the whole battle near Winterfell fiasco? 

Who wrote the "Bastard" letter? Ramsay? Roose? Mance? 

What is Victorian's role in the Mereen war? Is the dragonbinder horn legit and how do you use it?

Where will Dany go now? 

Will Theon die or be sent to the Wall (only possible if he confess that Bran and Rickon are alive)?

What does Littlefingers has in plan? Is he working with Varys and greasing up the way for Aegon Blackfyre?

Could Arya be one of the little girls who came with Varys to kill Kevan? Could Varys be one of the FM?

Who will kill Cersei and who will be the princess to take everything she holds dear? 

What will become of Jaimie? Will Brienne kill him with the Outhkeeper (lmao) or will they kill the Stoneheart (zombie Catelyn) together? 

Who is septa Lemore? 

Is Sandor Clegane truly dead or is he the gravedigger? Will we ever see him again?

Who will fight against Robert Strong (the Champion)?

What is Olenna Redwyne planning (Tyrion level GoT player)?

What are the maesters of The Citadel conspiring?


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## Nae'blis (Jun 21, 2012)

Glad when Catelyn died, pissed when the bitch came back as Lady Stoneheart. Indifferent when Robb died. The guy was hardly even a legit character.

Also don't be an annoying cunt. No one is going to respond to all of those in a single post. At least not without monosyllabic answers. You copy/pasta the whole thing from another forum. And so many spelling mistakes. Whatever happened to individual expression and thought?


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## Jacob Shekelstein (Jun 21, 2012)

Nae'blis said:


> Also don't be an annoying cunt. No one is going to respond to all of those in a single post. At least not without monosyllabic answers.





As if I asked to respond to all of those in a single post 



> You copy/*pasta* the whole thing from another forum. And so many spelling mistakes. Whatever happened to individual expression and thought?



Contribute to the thread instead of being an annoying cunt yourself. If I had copy/pasta'ed ( ) it from another forum it wouldn't have so many spelling mistakes. Pester someone else with your period rage


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## Nae'blis (Jun 21, 2012)

Well would you care to back up your questions with facts from the books? If you thought of them all yourself, of course. Those are all straight from a ASOIAF theories page.


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## Kage (Jun 22, 2012)

the only thing that upset me about the red wedding is that grey wind was a casualty.


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## FitzChivalry (Jun 22, 2012)

The Red Wedding was a little though to get through, but overall I thought it was great. Stitching Grey Wind's severed head  on Robb's body was fucked up, though. I hope the Freys get what's coming to them. It's going to take a long time for their House to recover what honor they had, and I wonder if the next lord that sits at Winterfell will bring the hammer down on them like they will Roose and Ramsay.

As far as ADWD, I agree that the title was misleading, specifically because of the lack of progress and plodding in Dany's. Almost nothing of note happened until the last chapter in Dance. martryn was pretty accurate about her POV chapters. I did like Tyrion's, even though they weren't quite up to snuff with his previous POVs in books past.


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## Nae'blis (Jun 23, 2012)

Didn't have a problem with reading the Red Wedding. Then again I hated Catelyn Stark and Robb was fucking dull as dish water. If he wasn't a Stark people would notice his jobber aura, or that he had far more competent commanders in his war council. Compared to almost any other character in the series Robb is shit. As regarding the rules of hospitality, the Frey's should get what is coming to them. There is no benevolent god in Westeros, so men must as men should and dish out retribution as necessary.


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## masamune1 (Jun 24, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7lp3RhzfgI[/YOUTUBE]


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## Megaharrison (Jun 25, 2012)

After not wanting to wait a year for more Game of Thrones on TV I've begun reading the books. Just finished Storm of Swords and most of it was fantastic.

Shit I liked:

*Spoiler*: __ 




1.) Oberon vs The Mountain
2.) Jamie/Brienne relationship and him rescuing her
3.) Jamie's general character evolution in the book
4.) Daenerys doing stuff other then whine about being the mother of dragons
5.) Vargo Hoat. Never has a lisp been so badass.
6.) Stannis badassery at the end




Shit I didn't like

*Spoiler*: __ 




1.) Tywin's death. He was one of my favorite characters and though an asshole, wasn't so bad that he deserved the comical death treatment he got (unlike Joffrey).
2.) Tyrion killing Shae. I get he has a sinister side to him, but especially after seeing their relationship in the show this seemed too far for him. He should have just left her there after a verbal smackdown.




Though I hear a Feast For Crows isn't very popular. No Jon, Tyrion, or Daenerys and lots of Dorne


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## Fierce (Jun 25, 2012)

Feast had big shoes to fill in the shadow of Storm, but it's honestly fine, to me. Though everyone likes to cry about Feast and Dance being boring because not a lot of plot advancement happens relative to the first 3 books.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 26, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Shae HAD to die and by Tyrion's hands yes .. don't see a way around it


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 26, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Shae HAD to die and by Tyrion's hands yes .. don't see a way around it


[sp=ASoS]I thought she died by Tywin's hands. [/sp]


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 27, 2012)

I have been wondering how Littlefinger shall take into account Sansa's brief marriage to Tyrion, and I have realized that may not even be aware of  it, as he never mentioned it when he was explaining his plan to Sansa. Surely, someone as well-informed and clever as him would know about Sansa's marriage (as the ceremony was a public event) and have a plan to deal with it?

Also, I does anyone else here wonder if, by the end of this series, any beliefs, practices, and social norms in the various nations will be defied or drastically altered, most notably arranged marriages and blatant sexism and/or patriarchy? I certainly hope so.


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## Fierce (Jun 27, 2012)

Littlefinger is aware of Sansa's marriage, I promise.

Doing a simultaneous reread of Feast and Dance based off this


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## Corruption (Jun 27, 2012)

I'm rereading the series, currently on ACOK. I may try reading AFFC and ADWD simultaneously too, it would be interesting. 

Although, it's going to take a while for me to get through the series again. I'm reading too many other books also.


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## josh101 (Jul 2, 2012)

Anyone know where I can buy the Dunk and Egg books for cheap? ( I've only seen expensive copies of them ) I hate reading on the computer and don't have a kindle or whatever so can't download them.


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## αshɘs (Jul 9, 2012)

Finished AFfC today. I read it pretty fast, but I can't say I liked it that much, heh. Now onto ADwD


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## Megaharrison (Jul 14, 2012)

Just caught up with the book series, finished A Dance with Dragons.

My thoughts:
-Game of Thrones: 5/5
-Clash of Kings: 4/5
-Storm of Swords: 5/5
-Feast For Crows: 2/5
-Dance with Dragons: 4/5


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## Anarch (Jul 15, 2012)

^ Was Feast that bad ? I would've given it a 3.5/5

I think you notice the drop so much because Storm is so good.


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## Fierce (Jul 15, 2012)

I'm about 3/4 through my simultaneous Feast/Dance reread. I never hated Feast like most people do to begin with, but I definitely appreciate it more the 2nd time around. First time rereading it, while I've read the rest multiple times already.


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## Anarch (Jul 15, 2012)

^ I'm re reading Storm now; will do Feast/Dance next with the suggestions in your link above.


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## martryn (Jul 15, 2012)

Feast was one of my favorite books in the series.  I liked it more than Storm, which most people think is the best of the bunch.  Feast and Game, then Storm, followed by Kings and Dance.  Despite everyone else's opinions, I disliked Dance the most.  Dany became annoying on the same level as Robert Jordan's female characters for most of the book, and it was definitely Tyrion's worst showing.  Jon Snow's chapters were also weak considering what he managed to accomplish in the first several books.  Theon was a high point, but Asha was not.


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## KidTony (Jul 15, 2012)

feast is my least favorite, but i still like it quite a lot. I'm actually almost done with my feast re-listen, and i'm wondering if i should have put feast and dance together and listened to them like that. I was to lazy to do the work, but i probably would have been a fantastic option.

My problem with feast is that you can tell it was an incomplete book. It just sort of ends on a random sam champter and you're left wondering "that's it". While i was listening to it for the first time i was thinking to myself "hey, this is nowhere near as bad as people say it is, this is actually preety good!" and then it ends and I'm like "wait what...", i thought i was only a third through the book when it finished. 

Other than that thought, feast has some great arcs. The ironborn arc is fantastic, as well as the dornish arc. I did feel (and on this second listen as well) that Brienne and Cersei's arc could have been condensed a tad, like by two three chapters each, and maybe Arya's great arc been extended by one or two chapters, as well as Sansa's.

Also. Jaime's arc during feast = one of my favorite's in the entire series.

I loved Dance, and i think i'm going to love it even more during my re-listen. I didn't think Jon's chapters where weak at all, they along with Theon's were my favorites of the book. Jon goes through a great arc, it's much different from his others in the previous books because now he's in a leadership position, but notheless a very good read.

I don't see what you didn't like about Asha's chapters, i thought her two chapters were really, really good.

Theon's arc was amazing. Bran's arc almost as good (but wait too short) Arya's bit was also great. The little we got of jaime, an Cersei was excellent, and i enjoyed the other peripheral character showings (Victarion, Hotah, Connington)

Danny's arc was a bore, except her last couple of chapters, but Selmy's made up for it in spades. And yes, Tyrion's was his weakest so far, yet nonetheless an excellent read.

Can't wait to be done with feast so i can start my dance re-read.


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## josh101 (Jul 15, 2012)

Yeah, I liked Feast. I can understand why some people would of disliked it if they waited years for it, then would have to wait years for the next one, but as I am a recent reader, I liked it.

I do find the Iron Island chapters a bit boring though, Damphair characters could send me to sleep, I hated them and that character. 

That being said, as much as I hate a character or chapter, I could never skip one, could you?! I was over on the aSoIaF boards and see people skip chapters and read the summaries quiet regularly, I seriously have no idea how you could do that.


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## Fierce (Jul 15, 2012)

Finished the Feast portion of my Feast/Dance reread.


*Spoiler*: __ 



It's still so glorious how fast Cersei falls. Jaime throwing the letter in the fire. Just perfect.

Sam's last chapter is still so interesting too. So much to glean from it if you know what to look for. I honestly would probably never have put together by myself that Alleras is actually Sarella, or that The Alchemist/Pate impostor is Jaqen. Can't wait to find out why he's there. Kind of didn't realize that we hadn't heard from Marwyn yet either in Dance.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 15, 2012)

Fierce said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> It's still so glorious how fast Cersei falls. Jaime throwing the letter in the fire. Just perfect.



I am rather displeased to hear that you are so pleased by Cersei's fall; how can you be so cruel and sadistic as to enjoy her downfall? I was disgusted when i read those chapters, hoping that her torment would end, yet it did not. I am not objecting to the fact that her plans failed, but I am very bothered that she was not able to retain any of her dignity, or, more accurately, that she was not quickly killed for her crimes, to spare her the most supreme disgrace of being paraded naked through the city; that is no way to punish a queen, in my mind.

I also do not like how Jaime fell out of love with Cersei, despite their love seeming to be strong and unwavering when they were first introduced, and, more specifically, that he did respond to her letter or even bother to read it. What caused Jaime's change of heart? It has been some time since I read the books, so I cannot recall the exact details of that transformation.


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## Fierce (Jul 16, 2012)

How can I be so cruel and sadistic to enjoy Cersei crashing and burning? I read the books. Most notably A Feast for Crows, where we get a direct link to her idiotic, self-centered, malicious brain. Every action she takes is first to empower herself, while simultaneously stripping everyone else of whatever political power or personal self esteem they may have (which shouldn't be relevant to her, but she's a bitch). Only after servicing herself does she then worry about the physical well-being of her children, and only physically. She couldn't care less how her actions or attitude shapes their mental state or sense of self worth. Cersei is about as awful of a person in the series as there is, disregarding people like The Mountain and his gang or The Bloody Mummers. 

The maester read the letter to Jaime. He didn't burn it before acknowledging the contents. What caused Jaime's change of heart? How about his apparently poor, innocent sister fucking everyone she could if it meant her personal gain? Or constantly mocking her maimed twin brother, who loved her more than anything else in his world? Whatever anyone thinks of Jaime's other mistakes and flaws, no one can deny his devotion to his sister. While she whores herself out whenever she needs to, he's never been with any woman but sister.


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## martryn (Jul 16, 2012)

> I am rather displeased to hear that you are so pleased by Cersei's fall; how can you be so cruel and sadistic as to enjoy her downfall? I was disgusted when i read those chapters, hoping that her torment would end, yet it did not. I am not objecting to the fact that her plans failed, but I am very bothered that she was not able to retain any of her dignity, or, more accurately, that she was not quickly killed for her crimes, to spare her the most supreme disgrace of being paraded naked through the city; that is no way to punish a queen, in my mind.



She fucking deserved it.  You reap what you sow, or some shit.



> I also do not like how Jaime fell out of love with Cersei, despite their love seeming to be strong and unwavering when they were first introduced, and, more specifically, that he did respond to her letter or even bother to read it. What caused Jaime's change of heart? It has been some time since I read the books, so I cannot recall the exact details of that transformation.



While Cersei was sitting all high-and-mighty, Jaime was getting his hand chopped off and was stuck in prison covered in his own shit for weeks, if not months.  It's called perspective.


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## Anarch (Jul 16, 2012)

Cersei deserved everything she got and more.


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## dream (Jul 16, 2012)

Cersei's punishment was fitting and it was satisfying to see her go through it, it probably was the most satisfying chapter in the whole book for me.


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## pfft (Jul 16, 2012)

^ do you also imagine that you're a total cunt bag who deserves even harsher treatment than that too?


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## pfft (Jul 16, 2012)

ROFL DDJ 

I am a female and Cersei may desire to do well for Tommen but her desire is not to be a good parent.. Far from it. IF she desired to be a good parent she would not have raised Joffrey with the ideal that he can make the truth be what he wants etc.  
ANY parent who raised such a child would not be a good parent nor one who desires to be a good parent. 

Secondly.. I never thought she was poorly treated by anyone other than maybe her own family to some extent since she, being the first born sort of deserved to have the titles worthy for a first born heir instead of it being robbed as she puts it by Jaime her twin. 

She deserved worse than what she got.


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## Han Solo (Jul 16, 2012)

I never felt satisfaction from what hapenned to Cersei because I never had any emotional connection or any care for her character either way. I barely even think of her as a character really because she has broken my suspension of disbelief too many times. Just an awful character, easily Martin's worst POV to me.


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## pfft (Jul 16, 2012)

^ yeah she is definitely one of the worst character imo too.. as a female they just made her too stupid. So she annoys me alot. Whenever she does something totally stupid which imo a woman of her status should know better i just wind up disliking her all the more for it.


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## Anarch (Jul 16, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Well, it was not enjoyable at all for me, because I could too easily imagine myself in her place, being dragged through the city naked and being insulted by all the people. Death would have been far more merciful for her, in my mind.



How ? Just because she is a woman ? In that case you should be able to  relate yourself to every female character in the books and I should be able to relate to every male one , but that's not supposed to happen.

Cersei is well and truly evil , and I'm sure you're nothing like her so why imagine yourself in her place ?



> And what about Cersei's *desire to be a good parent* to her children? She does not want to see Tommen taken from her at his young age, yet other users here seem to forget that that was a major motivation for her actions, plus the fact that she was treated poorly because she was a woman in a male-dominated society. I am certainly am not saying that her ends justified her means, but I am saying that surely, there must be some other users here, apart from myself, who feel sympathy for her, or believe that she deserved a more dignified punishment?



Cersei is a terrible terrible parent , just look at Joffrey. I don't doubt that she loves her children like any mother would but her idea of being a good parent is just pathetic.

I totally disagree with your idea of poor women in a male dominated society. You're looking at this with a modern day perspective , you want the women to be able to vote and choose who to marry , but you don't realize that the modern day women also has to fend for herself in most cases.

In the setting of aSoIaF , the common people are screwed , period. Men get killed , women get raped and there's nothing anyone can do about it but look at the nobles.

Yes men are the dominant ones , they take most of the decisions , wield all the power. They are also the ones who ride out to battle and die or are injured , or rot in prison cells while their wives , sisters and mothers have tea parties. So its unfair to say that the times were unfair to women , they were equally unfair to men. Specially boys no older than 15 who had to ride to battle without even knowing why.

And Cersei - she was rich , protected , and privileged. It is laughable to say that she was mistreated for being a woman.

You can't look at these things by modern standards which is what you're doing. So she was pushed around by her husband Robert - he was her Lord husband , doing his bidding was her duty , just as it was every man's (or boy's) duty to fight and die at his liege lord's command , in a war he didn't even understand. You don't expect a modern day kid to ride out and die in battle just because some bureaucrat somewhere tells him to , do you ? 

So she didn't have complete freedom over her life , in a matter like choice of husband , but you have to admit that had as much to do with her father being Tywin Lannister as it had to do with her sex. Tywin would have done the same to Jaime too if Aerys himself hadn't intervened , and he mistreated Tyrion a lot more than he did Cersei.  
But all that changes after Robert dies doesn't it ? She is the most powerful woman in the realm now- she is rich ,  she is the queen regent - she has everything she wants .

And to top it all off she lets Joffrey mistreat Sansa. She as a woman doing nothing about it shows what she really is.

I'm sorry but there really is no justification for any of the evil stuff Cersei does. She has a fantastic life by those days' standards and everything she does is to get even more and more.




Han Solo said:


> I never felt satisfaction from what hapenned to Cersei because I never had any emotional connection or any care for her character either way. I barely even think of her as a character barely because she has broken my suspension of disbelief too many times. Just an awful character, easily Martin's worst POV to me.



I couldn't disagree more. Cersei is one of my favourite characters , as in I love to hate her. Her portrayal is one of the best parts of the series , and her punishment was very very satisfying. I'm looking forward to more.


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## Shark Skin (Jul 16, 2012)

Cersei's imperfection is what I like most about her. She just tries too damn hard most of the time and misses the big picture. Sure, you could say she's stupid, but that's supposed to be the irony of her character. That she thinks that she's so cunning yet she ended up plotting her own demise.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 17, 2012)

Anarch: I am male, not female, so that is not the reason for which I could picture myself in Cersei's place; I would not wish any fate upon another person that I would not wish upon myself, and since I certainly do not wish to be dragged naked through the streets of a city, I would never wish that fate upon another person. The rest of your post was very well-written, but I wish to stop discussing Cersei and her fate, as doing so obviously leads to such discussions as this one.

What does everyone believe shall happen to Samwell? His story does not appear to have an immediate goal or direction, from what I last observed, but I still am interested in learning what next happens to him.


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## martryn (Jul 17, 2012)

> Anarch: I am male, not female, so that is not the reason for which I could picture myself in Cersei's place



Holy shit, are you like Ice Prince?



> What does everyone believe shall happen to Samwell? His story does not appear to have an immediate goal or direction, from what I last observed, but I still am interested in learning what next happens to him.



Martin is going to use his PoV to fill out what's going on with that magister's tower of training stuff or whatever.  Looks like that might have some role in the next novel, and now we have a PoV down there.


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## Anarch (Jul 17, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I would not wish any fate upon another person that I would not wish upon myself, and since I certainly do not wish to be dragged naked through the streets of a city



But you're not Cersei. How can you put yourself in someone's place who is completely different from you ? Even IRL I'm sure you don't want to spend time in prison , but murderers and other criminals are sentenced to prison , so as an extension of your logic ( which says that "I would not wish any fate upon another person that I would not wish upon myself" ) you wouldn't want these criminals to go to prison either right ?
No offence , but that is the weirdest attitude I've heard of in a while - it is only applicable in a world where all people are equally good or bad , which of course isn't the case.

Anyway moving on



> What does everyone believe shall happen to Samwell? His story does not appear to have an immediate goal or direction, from what I last observed, but I still am interested in learning what next happens to him.



Well we saw Jaqen at the Citadel so Sam will get involved with him somehow. Eventually I guess he'll join up with either Dany and tell her what Aemon tells him before dying , or he'll find Jon and help him against the Others somehow.I don't see him becoming a full fledged Maester since that would imply a very long time skip.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 17, 2012)

we saw Jaqen in the Citadel ? 

I forgot that ...

what was he doing thar ?


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## Dionysus (Jul 17, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> we saw Jaqen in the Citadel ?
> 
> I forgot that ...
> 
> what was he doing thar ?



He was in the prologue of AFFC (I think) and killed the piggish guy, posing as him. Assistant to that brash Maester who takes Sam in then heads to Dany.

We know this because the description of the killer paints the same picture as the face we read Jaqen transforming into in front of Arya.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 17, 2012)

I wonder about Jaqen's ability to alter his appearance: is it magical, or merely a very clever trick? Magic does exist in this story, but it is very rare and is used only for moments of great drama and/or importance to the storyline.


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## martryn (Jul 17, 2012)

Obviously magic.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 17, 2012)

martryn said:


> Holy shit, are you like Ice Prince?



Who is Ice Prince, dare I ask?



martryn said:


> Martin is going to use his PoV to fill out what's going on with that magister's tower of training stuff or whatever.  Looks like that might have some role in the next novel, and now we have a PoV down there.



Yes, I also am very interested to learn more about Maesters and their training, so I do hope that Martin provides further information on that subject.


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## martryn (Jul 17, 2012)

> Who is Ice Prince, dare I ask?



Just some queer that actually looks sorta hot in drag.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 17, 2012)

martryn said:


> Just some queer that actually looks sorta hot in drag.



In that case, to answer your question from earlier: no, I am not Ice Prince.


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## Fierce (Jul 17, 2012)

martryn said:


> Just some queer that actually looks sorta hot in drag.



Lol


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## KidTony (Jul 17, 2012)

Cersei actually had it pretty good. The faith made her walk around naked to shame her, they whipped kettleblack until his flesh reselmbled scrambled eggs.

 have no sympathy for Cersei. Not because she's a dreadfull slut, or completely incompetent at playing the game, but because she's a monster. She gives people to Qyburn for torture, even innocent people like the blue bard who did absolutely nothing.  She had planned to ask prince trystanne, a boy of 10 to court, and have him killed on the way.


Zero sympathy for her. As far as i know, she got off light.

I would say that i would like Cersei a bit better if she was at least a bit competent, like Roose. He's a monster alright, but from afar you sort of have to have a certain degree of respect for the way he plays the game.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 18, 2012)

martryn said:


> Obviously magic.



In that case, I hope that Martin explains how Jaqen obtained his power, and the exact details of its capabilities and functions.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jul 18, 2012)

Have you not been reading Arya's chapters?


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## Anarch (Jul 18, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> In that case, I hope that Martin explains how Jaqen obtained his power, and the exact details of its capabilities and functions.



Like Alfred said read Arya's chapters. She's basically training to be a FM like Jaqen.


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## αshɘs (Jul 20, 2012)

Finished ADwD and my first reaction was 'no way is this going to end in two books without feeling rushed'. When I started reading this, I expected the Eastern plot to wrap to the point where Dany would at least decide to head for Westeros. But no  Not to mention Arya and Bran, but especially the former need more training to be ready for whatever they need to do. Plus, the Others haven't begun their invasion yet, and since they're the biggest threat in the whole story, I wouldn't expect them to be dealt with in, say, one book.

Highlight were the Theon chapters and the Northern plot with the Boltons, Davos, Asha and Frey-pie Manderley  Also would have liked more Bran chapters.

Jon and Tyrion were in-between. Dany chapters were the worse, thankfully Barristan got a couple of chapters to save it.


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## pfft (Jul 20, 2012)

lol i definitely agree about it being rushed with only two more books to go.. he should release more than the two books instead so it isnt rushed. 

i need full hearted devotion to the story and two books wont give me that..


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## Fierce (Jul 20, 2012)

I'd like to see him live long enough to put out the 2 books before deciding whether or not he needs to write an 8th...


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## Shrike (Jul 20, 2012)

I dislike the Essos storyline as a whole. I actually found it really, really boring. Tyrion, Daenerys, and especially Quentin had really bad plot progression. Quentin's POV wasn't really needed at all. He could have just appeared in a Dany chapter, even surprising us. But no, Martin had to write all that crap because he didn't really know what to do.

I expected the book to AT LEAST end with Dany moving to Westeros, since, you know, the book is called a fucking _Dance with dragons_. But they didn't dance much aside from pissing all over Quent and people of Mereen. Instead, I got Daenerys FURTHER away from Westeros, in the goddamn Dothraki sea.

Martin said that he wanted to write two major battles before the book ended : at Winterfell and Mereen, but he didn't deliver any of those and moved them to the early Winds. Then he is like, well, to finish this, I need two books of 1500 manuscript pages. Meaning he won't finish it in two books, no fucking chance. Fuck you, old man.

Oh and I don't want to sound like an ungrateful shit, but his own quality and pace slowed the fuck down. So yeah, fuck him.


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## KidTony (Jul 20, 2012)

i think you guys will be very happy in two years when you finish the first half of TWoW. ADWD, in spite of its length, is in essence an incomplete novel. Martin said as much, he said hs publisher convinced him to save what would have been the climax of ADWD (the battle of Mereen and the battle in the ice) for the next novel. Had we had that, ADWD would have felt a lot more satisfactory since it would have been drawing all along to a huge climax. Alas, the book was too big already and he cut that stuff out, a mistake i think, though the book was still very strong without it, IMHO.


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## Fierce (Jul 20, 2012)

DemonDragonJ said:


> On that subject, please help me to understand something that has been bothering me for quite some time: why did Ned receive a far more severe punishment than did Cersei for "crimes" (and I use that word lightly, for Ned's actions were crimes only in the minds of Cersei and Joffrey) that were far less severe than were Cersei's? That does not make sense, to me.



He was only supposed to get sent to the Wall, remember? Joffrey went against what his mother told him to do because he was a stupid, arrogant child that felt empowered by having someone put to death. 

Honestly, in the political world, there's no real guidelines for how severely to punish people based off their perceived crimes. Basically whatever the most powerful person present decides on a whim to do with the guilty party. At least this seems to be the most recurring case. Joffrey decided at the last second to have Ned executed. The High Septon agreed to let Cersei have freedom until her trial if she submitted to doing a penance walk.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 21, 2012)

Fierce said:


> He was only supposed to get sent to the Wall, remember? Joffrey went against what his mother told him to do because he was a stupid, arrogant child that felt empowered by having someone put to death.
> 
> Honestly, in the political world, there's no real guidelines for how severely to punish people based off their perceived crimes. Basically whatever the most powerful person present decides on a whim to do with the guilty party. At least this seems to be the most recurring case. Joffrey decided at the last second to have Ned executed. The High Septon agreed to let Cersei have freedom until her trial if she submitted to doing a penance walk.



Yes, I see that that is further evidence of how life in Martin's world is often short, violent, and very difficult for nearly everyone.

Therefore, I wonder: by the end of the series, will there be any signs that the situation may be changing, that violence and warfare are decreasing, and that life overall shall be improving for the average people? Martin's writing is usually very dark and cynical, but surely, even he would end his story with a positive and hopeful tone for his readers?


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## Fierce (Jul 21, 2012)

Ha. I wouldn't count on it.


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## Shrike (Jul 21, 2012)

KidTony said:


> i think you guys will be very happy in two years when you finish the first half of TWoW. ADWD, in spite of its length, is in essence an incomplete novel. Martin said as much, he said hs publisher convinced him to save what would have been the climax of ADWD (the battle of Mereen and the battle in the ice) for the next novel. Had we had that, ADWD would have felt a lot more satisfactory since it would have been drawing all along to a huge climax. Alas, the book was too big already and he cut that stuff out, a mistake i think, though the book was still very strong without it, IMHO.



Yes, and Martin, knowing that, could have missed out a couple of boring as fuck chapters and have a better and more complete book by giving us those two battles. And if a writers says that his book is incomplete it pretty much draws a middle finger to the readers. So yeah, still fuck him.



DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, I have read every chapter of every book, thus far, but I cannot recall every detail of them, and Martryn earlier said that he believed that Jaqen's ability was supernatural, while nothing about Arya's training seems to be supernatural to me; it seems to be extreme skill at stealth and subterfuge.



Wait man, are you joking? A room full of fucking faces and Arya magically gluing one of them and becoming that ugly little girl is only stealth and subterfuge?



DemonDragonJ said:


> I have said this before, and I shall say it again: I would prefer being whipped over being publicly humiliated any day, as psychological torment is far worse than any physical torment, in my mind.
> 
> Again, when you phrase it in that manner, I definitely sympathize with Jaime, and can understand why he acted as he did. That experience must have been very harsh for him.



When will you get it? It doesn't matter what's worse in your mind. It's going to happen because it's how the world works. I just can't get you being that soft. Have you ever heard of injustice in the modern world? It's happening ALL the fucking time, much more so than what you would call justice. But what are you fucking going to do? Nothing, it's the real world. Not to mention that you found Cersei of all people to sympathize with, who is guilty as fuck. I mean, for plot's sake, I would like her to stay with us, but it would have been okay if she got her tongue ripped and forced to join the Silent sisters. She is a fucking monster.



DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, I see that that is further evidence of how life in Martin's world is often short, violent, and very difficult for nearly everyone.
> 
> Therefore, I wonder: by the end of the series, will there be any signs that the situation may be changing, that violence and warfare are decreasing, and that life overall shall be improving for the average people? Martin's writing is usually very dark and cynical, but surely, even he would end his story with a positive and hopeful tone for his readers?



No, of course not. What don't you get? It's called REALITY. It's very similar how the real dark ages worked. That's why it's called the _Dark_ age. It's, by today's standards, harsh and miserable world. It's not going to get better until some hundreds of years pass. 

In Martin's world, it's only going to get worse with the coming of the Others and the long winter. People are going to die in heaps.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 21, 2012)

Spike_Shrike said:


> Wait man, are you joking? A room full of fucking faces and Arya magically gluing one of them and becoming that ugly little girl is only stealth and subterfuge?



I completely forgot about that scene, so I thank you for refreshing my memory.



Spike_Shrike said:


> When will you get it? It doesn't matter what's worse in your mind. It's going to happen because it's how the world works. I just can't get you being that soft. Have you ever heard of injustice in the modern world? It's happening ALL the fucking time, much more so than what you would call justice. But what are you fucking going to do? Nothing, it's the real world. Not to mention that you found Cersei of all people to sympathize with, who is guilty as fuck. I mean, for plot's sake, I would like her to stay with us, but it would have been okay if she got her tongue ripped and forced to join the Silent sisters. She is a fucking monster.
> 
> No, of course not. What don't you get? It's called REALITY. It's very similar how the real dark ages worked. That's why it's called the _Dark_ age. It's, by today's standards, harsh and miserable world. It's not going to get better until some hundreds of years pass.
> 
> In Martin's world, it's only going to get worse with the coming of the Others and the long winter. People are going to die in heaps.



Very well; I see that discussing this subject is a futile endeavor, as each of us clearly has our own opinion on this subject, so I therefore hope that we can each agree to respect the others' opinion.

To change the subject, will the _Dothraki_ whom Daenerys encountered at the end of _A Dance with Dragons_ be hostile or friendly to her. I recall that they were being led by a _Khal_ who was formerly a member of Drogo's _Khalasar,_ so that could be an indication of either attitude toward her, in my mind.


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## Fierce (Jul 21, 2012)

If it was just her, he'd probably be hostile. Somehow I don't see him wanting to tango with a big black fucking dragon, though.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 22, 2012)

Fierce said:


> If it was just her, he'd probably be hostile. Somehow I don't see him wanting to tango with a big black fucking dragon, though.



Yes, that does make sense; perhaps Daenerys can convince him to help her to return to Meereen, where she previously was? If that does not work, she can always ride Drogon back there.


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## Corruption (Jul 22, 2012)

I don't remember. Is that the Khal she vowed to kill in AGOT?


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## Fierce (Jul 22, 2012)

Yes.


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## Anarch (Jul 22, 2012)

I've always been amused by how blind Dany is. She swears to destroy Jhaqo and Mago for raping an innocent girl and on the other hand falls in love with Drogo. As if Drogo didn't rape and murder innocents as much as ( or more than ) either of them, in his time.


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## masamune1 (Jul 22, 2012)

Spike_Shrike said:


> *No, of course not. What don't you get? It's called REALITY. It's very similar how the real dark ages worked.* That's why it's called the _Dark_ age. It's, by today's standards, harsh and miserable world. It's not going to get better until some hundreds of years pass.
> 
> In Martin's world, it's only going to get worse with the coming of the Others and the long winter. People are going to die in heaps.



Eh; not really. Martin's world is actually pretty over the top. And thats _without_ all the magic and dragons and monsters from the Frozen North.  Often it reads like Shakespeare.

And they were called the Dark Ages because arrogant Renaissance writers wanted to make themselves look special by making what came before them look bleak and ignorant It was called "Dark" less because of all the poverty or disease and violence and more because they didn't think much of their intellectual achievements.

In reality, this time period was less harsh and miserable and more plain boring for the average person. Wars weren't as violent, rulers weren't as mad or stupid, etc. etc. Like most realist epic dramas, it sacrifices accuracy for conflict and excitement. There is a reason the story isn't set during the rule of one of the sane and reasonable Targaryen rulers.

Very, very good story. But not quite as realistic as everyone seems to think. At the end of the day, it is still a Fantasy epic.


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## Shrike (Jul 22, 2012)

masamune1 said:


> Eh; not really. Martin's world is actually pretty over the top. And thats _without_ all the magic and dragons and monsters from the Frozen North.  Often it reads like Shakespeare.
> 
> And they were called the Dark Ages because arrogant Renaissance writers wanted to make themselves look special by making what came before them look bleak and ignorant It was called "Dark" less because of all the poverty or disease and violence and more because they didn't think much of their intellectual achievements.
> 
> ...



I said : very similar, and it is. The world is not really over the top. Sure, it's a fantasy setting, but other than that, human behavior is similar to how it was back in the day. And the term realistic is used more to show the behavior of people given the said circumstances and tools, not like : hey it's exactly how realism works!

You say that the story is set in the time of war. Of course it will be. Where's the fun in it happening during a peaceful period?

Rulers weren't as mad and stupid? Are you kidding me? People were stupid, well, always. It's like saying that 20th century didn't have mad or stupid people in governments of the world. 

You are somewhat right about the origin of the term Dark ages, since it was born sometime when the Renaissance started emerging, but I don't think it was your usual Renaissance writers who claimed it the Dark age, but the historians. It's satirized, since the Romans were so much more advanced as a society centuries before, yeah, but also because much of the Middle ages is clouded if history is to be asked. I could be wrong, I don't remember well since I studied that shit like 10 years back, either way I am not going to turn this into a historical debate.

The point is, towns that didn't have sewage system had shit all over the streets, even pouring from the roofs, getting people all kinds of diseases. Both your average man and woman worked all day long to survive. So yeah, it was kinda dark. 

Wars were as violent as Martin described, nothing out of the ordinary there. If you were this lord's vassal, peasant or whatever, when he calls for battle you grab a spear and go. I don't see how CAN Martin go over the top there. If your ruler is a moron, which used to happen a lot, battles happened over bullshit. Small skirmishes, usually, but still, they happened a lot.


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## masamune1 (Jul 22, 2012)

Spike_Shrike said:


> I said : very similar, and it is. The world is not really over the top. Sure, it's a fantasy setting, but other than that, human behavior is similar to how it was back in the day. And the term realistic is used more to show the behavior of people given the said circumstances and tools, not like : hey it's exactly how realism works!
> 
> You say that the story is set in the time of war. Of course it will be. Where's the fun in it happening during a peaceful period?
> 
> ...



Wars were not as violent- 10% casualties were usually the limit of the average battle; after that one or both sides tended to break and run like hell, and their commanders let them because once you reach a certain point its clear who is going to win and that win or lose if the fight goes on too long you will loe a lot of men. Most deaths in war right up to World War One tended to come from disease rather than violence. Most Medieval battles were skirmishes. In this series, nearly every battle is an epic battle. And too many people disregard the laws and conducts of war- which yes, existed and were adhered to in real life more often than not, even in that time period.  

As for the treatment of peasants- yes, they could be picked up at any point to join in this lord or thats army, but they were also treated a lot better than they seem to be treated in Westeros, where every side seems to think that destroying crops and farmland with no regard for the welfare of the farmers is acceptable, even though in real life the rulers tended to realize that, woops- these guys make _our_ food as well. The royals in Storms End should have been starving as much as the common people. In general, life was harsh, but not miserable. Most were reasonably happy and they were rarely abused that often by their masters. Same with the towns and villages- shit in the streets and long working hours didn't actually bother people all that much or make them into depressives. It was normal, and they still had plenty of time for humour and friendships and other normal stuff.

Also, not everyone at court was a treacherous backstabbing murderous slive- yes, ther are real mad and stupid rulers in history, but Cersei is incredibly stupid and incompetent even by the standard of rulers from that time period, and I can think of few if any politicians who were like Littlefinger- trying to destroy their entire kingdom just to spite an old crush or rule over a ruined kingdom. Guys like Ned Stark were not actually _that_ uncommon and, frankly, they were rather more valuable- in such environments its good to know that there is _someone_ there who is trustworthy, and both sides tend to see the value in such people.

The Renaissance writers claimed it- they _were_ the historians, and there wasn't any specialization of such subjects to the degree there is today. And the Middle Ages is not clouded in mystery- we know tons of what happened, and even back then they were selective or simplistic in their choice of sources. They were also far too complicated to be called "the Dark Ages"- they were a period of roughly a thousand years spanning most of Europe. Historians tend to divide them between the Early, High and Late Middle Ages to demonstrate their complexities.

Yes, there is a fair bit of realism in Martin's work- but there is also a fair bit of exaggeration. Its a story first, after all, and it bugs me a bit to see it praised for soap opera realism as if thats how people really acted back then, or as if they acted that way more often than not ignoring the extreme situation the characters are in (because of all the maniacs and morons who seem to be running the place). Yes, it is gritty- but it is _more_ gritty than the real world was. And yes, it is realistic- but more compared to epic fantasy novels than real life. 

Can't find a complete link to the whole article, but historian Kelly deVries wrote about this for _Foreign Affairs_, and it can be found online (but you need to register to see the whole thing- I'm sure I read it all somewhere else, but can't find it). There are a couple of other such articles (such as on the politics) but again I can't find the complete thing without registering. Scouring the internet might meet more luck than I've had.


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## pfft (Jul 23, 2012)

Anarch said:


> I've always been amused by how blind Dany is. She swears to destroy Jhaqo and Mago for raping an innocent girl and on the other hand falls in love with Drogo. As if Drogo didn't rape and murder innocents as much as ( or more than ) either of them, in his time.



he didnt continue raping and pillaging and acting like a fearsome savage dothraki warrior while married to dany.  He also did not stop his warriors from doing as they always done because that is their way and their culture. which in turn made him both a great lover and a great leader, a real man, a man of power and compassion. 
why wouldnt you be able to fall in love with someone who could forgo such inclinations.. especially cultural ones. 

and he also treated her with respect and valued her opinions (even the ones about raping and pillaging even if he could not share them) something viserys had never done. 

 In her brief years of life prior to knowing drogo her experiences were not good ones with most people.. going from house to house and living with whomever would help them. 

and  he did not rape her on her wedding night or just "take her" by force.  he waited until she consented and initiated it..  which brought about an early express wish to enter into a marriage with respect and not just brute control over his wife. 

it would be stupid to not have fallen in love with such a man.. esp if he returns that love


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## Anarch (Jul 23, 2012)

pfft said:


> he didnt continue raping and pillaging and acting like a fearsome savage dothraki warrior while married to dany.  He also did not stop his warriors from doing as they always done because that is their way and their culture. which in turn made him both a great lover and a great leader, a real man, a man of power and compassion.
> why wouldnt you be able to fall in love with someone who could forgo such inclinations.. especially cultural ones.
> 
> and he also treated her with respect and valued her opinions (even the ones about raping and pillaging even if he could not share them) something viserys had never done.
> ...



So you fall in love with a murdering rapist because he stops raping after marriage ? In that case why was Dany so angry with Jhaqo and Mago , maybe they'd turn over a new leaf after they found their soul mates too. 

And please , the savage pillaging , raping and murdering of the Dothraki isn't culture , it's the lack of one.

I agree with what you said regarding his treatment of Dany , he was a perfect gentlemen to her but that doesn't wash out all the sins of his past.

Also he never stopped pillaging by the way, he couldn't have - they wouldn't have survived otherwise because that was all they knew. He only stopped raping. 

But all that doesn't change the fact that he was a ruthless (ex)rapist , murderer and slave trader and it makes no sense that Dany who we see later cares very much for her people especially the downtrodden would ever fall in love with a man like that. Remember she didn't forgive Jorah for his past actions inspite of the fact that he had served her with everything he had since.

Actually it does make sense if you look at this way - in matters of heart Dany was just a young girl , Drogo was her teenage love . Just like she fell in love with Dario later.



> it would be stupid to not have fallen in love with such a man.. esp if he returns that love



Yes stupid not to fall for the renowned murderer and rapist your brother sold you to because he is good to you and respects you while he slaughters the rest of the world.


----------



## Fierce (Jul 23, 2012)

Dany is just a little girl with a normal abnormal attachment to the guy that took her virginity.


----------



## pfft (Jul 23, 2012)

Anarch said:


> So you fall in love with a murdering rapist because he stops raping after marriage ? In that case why was Dany so angry with Jhaqo and Mago , maybe they'd turn over a new leaf after they found their soul mates too.
> 
> And please , the savage pillaging , raping and murdering of the Dothraki isn't culture , it's the lack of one.
> 
> ...



rofl when your life situation dictates that you marry some fucking dude whose culture (and idk if you understand the meaning of culture but the definition i was referring to that is the beliefs and practices of a people) dictates the following that was mentioned by both of us before the whole taking over and gaining power through savage means.. 

yes you make the fucking best of it because you have to keep on living. you cant just run off and forgo your previous disposition of being a ruler of a nation and live however you like.. 

and  idk what world you live in that believes in sin washings but i think both of us can agree that there this story created by martin is filled with one that has the capabilities for forgiveness and understanding.. basic human emotions that people engage in.  

and as for ser jorah.. well his betrayal was one that maybe a young girl/woman who had no one but trusted this one man.. maybe it is not easy to forgive such a sin when you were fooled so thoroughlyus and thus the betrayal is that much more. 

 I dont think the author wants you to view these people through your mind but to actually empathise with them based on the knowledge given in the books of each character..  can you do that? 

lol as for your other comments it just sounds like you hate the dothraki because they are known pillagers.  This savagery though as you speak of it.. is a fucking dawn of time act committed by every fucking known culture in the world.  Humanity has shown time and time again acts of Rapine pillage and plundering during wars and conquerings etc.. 

The ancient greeks/romans and macedonians were "learned" men too but that didnt stop them from wanting to expand their lands and territories.  take your disgust and just apply it to the whole of humanity because we are some fucked up pieces of shits.

and by that i mean hate the dirty filthy fucking white man.. they are unclean pieces of shit who conquer and kill peoples through and through


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## Anarch (Jul 23, 2012)

yes i hate the Dothraki very much so my opinion might be jaded , i'll concede that much.


----------



## Magnum Miracles (Jul 23, 2012)

Finished A Dance with Dragons today. Poor Jon Snow, went the same way Mormont went .

Overall, a very good book, even though Jaime only had like 1 chapter .


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## Fierce (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh, you think he's dead, do you?


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## Shrike (Jul 24, 2012)

masamune1 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Some of your points are spot on, others are plain wrong. 

Martin's world is not realistic in a sense that the peasants are being ignored completely, that's true. Your point about the battles, though, is very much wrong. Do you know how many wars were led only by conquerors of the Middle ages? Wars where massacres were a good day to you sir. Do you know about Crusades? Namely the first one. Mongols? Hungarians even, at one point? Vikings? Turks? Going by the history of my own people, there were SO many political intrigues and so many rulers banished. Many people killed over nothing. Do you know of the real Dracula, Vlad II the Impaler? If someone wrote a story about a historical Vlad (and I am sure there are many works about him), would people say "not that realistic" and "well, most of the period was boring, so it's cool to write in that period"? Of course it's cool to write of that period, but that doesn't make it historically inaccurate. Sure, there were much more small skirmishes with no many casualties than massive battles, and I mentioned that myself, but it in no way means that the latter never happened.

In the latest book, we witnessed the Pale Mare appearing in the besieging army of Yunkais, exactly how the Black Death appeared in the Mongol army who was besieging the city of Caffa.

The point is, Martin might make some things seem out of place completely, such as the peasant treatment as we both said, but other than that, he was okay. He wasn't historically accurate, and he can't be since it's fantasy, but he is pretty much okay with the warfare and many other things.


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## Magnum Miracles (Jul 24, 2012)

Come on guys we're talking about a fantasy novel here, and you guys are arguing about realism .

These books would be boring if we didn't have so many deceitful sons of  bitches out for themselves .


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## Nae'blis (Aug 8, 2012)

Jaime is teh shit!


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## Ishamael (Aug 12, 2012)

Read the series over the past couple weeks. First three books are as terrific as everyone made them out to be. AFFC is an enjoyable read (Jaime's and Cersei's povs are very interesting) but it slows the series down drastically. Dany and Tyrion's plot lines in ADWD just felt pointless until the end of the novel but the rest of it was good if not as great as the first three novels.

Haven't really had the time to research fan theories as I tried my best to avoid spoilers but what is the speculated end game for Bran and Arya? It just seems like there is so much ground for the two of them left to cover in the last two novels (I don't see how the series can be wrapped in two books at all unless they have 2000 pages a piece) and I can't see them being tied back into the main plot easily (Arya more so then Bran).


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## Anarch (Aug 12, 2012)

Finally finished re reading Storm. Doing the last two together in chronological order of chapters now.


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## Cyphon (Aug 12, 2012)

Does anyone here think Martin will take another crack at a timeskip once he gets people brought together? I think he said his main snag was more or less that people wouldn't be standing still so you couldn't just skip some years and say "so and so just met". So now with the knot unkinked for him do you believe there is a legitimate shot at it?

He made it pretty clear that his plans included the kids being older and IMO, to have Arya be any sort of believable once shit goes down she needs to be older. I believe Bran is okay simply because his powers don't require him to be physical in any way. Sure, time would make him much better but with it being strictly "magic" pretty much anything becomes believable. 

Obviously Sansa is more political focus so she is fine as well. The last one would be Rickon but Martin hasn't really given him much spotlight to begin with. I would really like to see him older and the remaining wolves coming together but at least he can be forgotten so to speak. Really the big one is Arya. She has been a big focus and it would be kind of dumb to have her chapters eventually lead to nowhere. I guess an argument could be made that she is involved in the magic side as well so age and physical prowess don't necessarily need to be "right".


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 12, 2012)

> I don't see how the series can be wrapped in two books at all unless they have 2000 pages a piece


me neither

frankly, I don't see 4-5 more books being out of place

3 minimum, just can't see 2


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## Fierce (Aug 12, 2012)

Meanwhile, back where this is a morbidly obese man halfway through his 60s, putting books out an average of like 4 years apart...yeah, I'll be surprised if he lives long enough to finish the planned 2 books. If he can't wrap the story up in 2, it's probably never going to get its conclusion.


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## Torpedo Titz (Sep 3, 2012)

It's more than possible for Martin to conclude the series in two books of ADWD's size _if not bigger_. Whether this conclusion will be satisfactory isn't for me to say.

A lot of the perspectives introduced after ASOS are actually quite disposable. POVs such as Melisandre's, Hotah's and Selmy's (location-specific POVs in general) can easily be dropped or merged into those of more important characters, such as Jon  or Tyrion. I doubt we'll be getting many, if any, Asha chapters in TWOW thanks to Theon providing coverage of Stannis' forces.

As things currently stand I can see the POVs merging into three main theatres:

>King's Landing, the Tyrell-Lannister alliance, the Vale, Jaime and Lady Stoneheart, Dorne and ''Aegon.''
>The Battle of the North and the most probable main plot which concerns the Others/R'hllor.
>Meereen.

POVs and sub-plots which seem like they're going nowhere whatsoever are Dany's (no surprise there), Sam and whatever happens with Darkstar.


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## martryn (Sep 3, 2012)

I actually don't think the whole Darkstar thing is large enough to lump in with other sub-plots.  It's about as important to the plot, at the moment, as the Manderlys are.


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## masamune1 (Sep 5, 2012)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGUKDZFiy-A[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## The Big G (Sep 5, 2012)

Jon is still alive....he's still has to learn that Rhegar Targaryean is his real father


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## Eri (Sep 26, 2012)

I actually liked Jon's plot line in ADWD. He wasn't perfect by any stretch, but he was still a better leader than most people in this series.
Tyrion's was not that thrilling. Man, I miss the good old days of AGOT, when travelling to a city halfway across the country took half a page at most.


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## Magnum Miracles (Sep 26, 2012)

I  loved Tyrion's up till he met that other dwarf. I just couldn't stand her character.


----------



## Shrike (Sep 26, 2012)

I disliked 80% or more of the chapters that happened in Essos.


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## Oceanus (Oct 27, 2012)

pfft said:


> and as for ser jorah.. well his betrayal was one that maybe a young girl/woman who had no one but trusted this one man.. maybe it is not easy to forgive such a sin when you were fooled so thoroughlyus and thus the betrayal is that much more.



I'm sure if Jorah was just any man that lied to her, she wouldn't hate him as much. It hurts alot more to be lied to by someone you love and it makes it harder to forgive. It's obvious that Dany loves him deep down and I think she will eventually forgive him...I haven't read that far so I'm guessing here.


----------



## Wizard (Nov 19, 2012)

Probably the best high fantasy series ever. Yes over even LOTR.


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## Kor (Nov 19, 2012)

I want to see more of Marwyn The Mage, he's a interesting character and I'm fond of the whole magic theme. Magic in asoiaf is more "exotic" and mysterious then other fantasy stories.

Also, more Sam the Slayer.


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## martryn (Nov 20, 2012)

> Probably the best high fantasy series ever. Yes over even LOTR.



It's really good, no doubt, but best ever?  Stephen R. Donaldson has a few things to say about that.  And even if you hate on Tolkien, there's still C.S. Lewis and Robert E. Howard.


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## Anarch (Nov 20, 2012)

Wizard said:


> Probably the best high fantasy series ever. Yes over even LOTR.



I love ASoIaF but I would say that will depend on how this story ends.


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## Fierce (Nov 20, 2012)

Anarch said:


> I love ASoIaF but I would say that will depend on how this story ends.



Yep. I always say it should be in the discussion, but where exactly it falls depends entirely on the next 2 books (assuming they ever actually come out, and assuming there's actually only 2).


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## Cyphon (Nov 20, 2012)

I am with the last few people. You can't call ASoIaF the best ever without an ending to it. Especially when comparing it to something completed. I would agree that it is better than LotR (it would have to get significantly worse than it is to not be better than LotR) but I wouldn't call it the best ever.


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## martryn (Nov 20, 2012)

I'm not sure why people are so hard on Lord of the Rings all of a sudden.  Pacing?  Not enough pulp for you young, impatient, impertinent hooligans?  The Two Towers had one of the greatest endings of all time.


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## Cyphon (Nov 20, 2012)

martryn said:


> I'm not sure why people are so hard on Lord of the Rings all of a sudden.  Pacing?  Not enough pulp for you young, impatient, impertinent hooligans?  The Two Towers had one of the greatest endings of all time.



Just to clear my own name I have been hard on it from the beginning. My first (and only) time reading it was only last year. 

My main problem with it is probably the fluff and lack of anything of interest happening very often. Walking, eating, walking more, sleeping, eating, walking, eating, sleeping, running, a little action, eating, sleeping and so on. Throw in a song or poem here and there. 

Not that I want or need only action but there was little in the way of any kind of intrigue either. I guess to summarize I just found it all very boring.


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## martryn (Nov 20, 2012)

Modern young readers have short attention spans.  We're an age of instant gratification.  This is why a lot of people in this thread thought the Dorne chapters were really boring while I thought it was the best part of the 4th book.


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## Fierce (Nov 21, 2012)

I liked the Dorne stuff. Best part of the book was the last 100 pages or so, though, to me.


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## martryn (Nov 21, 2012)

Well, sure, the end of the book is typically the best parts, but not always.  The big reveal at the end regarding Dorne was fantastic in my opinion, so it came as a real shame when those best laid plans went awry.  And all because Dany honestly is a complete psycho bitch, which I guess is a realistic portrayal of a woman her age.


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## Cyphon (Nov 21, 2012)

martryn said:


> Modern young readers have short attention spans.  We're an age of instant gratification.  This is why a lot of people in this thread thought the Dorne chapters were really boring while I thought it was the best part of the 4th book.



You are probably right. I don't really talk to many people who read outside of on here so I couldn't really say much on it. Although that same sentiment can apply to almost anything with young people. 

As for myself, I think I remember liking the Dorne chapters and the first time I read through WoT I don't remember hating the later books as many seem to. That might change for me on this 2nd read through I am doing though.


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## Anarch (Nov 21, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> As for myself, I think I remember liking the Dorne chapters and the first time I read through WoT I don't remember hating the later books as many seem to.



Same here.

I didn't even know that people hated the latest books till I read some posts here and on another forum.I don't know what they're talking about, I loved all of it.




> That might change for me on this 2nd read through I am doing though.



I don't know. I recently read the last two books together in chronological order of chapters - if anything I enjoyed the read more than my first time.


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## Cyphon (Nov 21, 2012)

Anarch said:


> Same here.
> 
> I didn't even know that people hated the latest books till I read some posts here and on another forum.I don't know what they're talking about, I loved all of it.
> 
> I don't know. I recently read the last two books together in chronological order of chapters - if anything I enjoyed the read more than my first time.



Are you talking about A Song of Ice and Fire? I was actually referring to Wheel of Time. 

In any case, I did like the last 2 books in ASoIaF as well. I actually put the 4th book above the 2nd.....I think.


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## Anarch (Nov 21, 2012)

Cyphon said:


> Are you talking about A Song of Ice and Fire? I was actually referring to Wheel of Time.
> 
> In any case, I did like the last 2 books in ASoIaF as well. I actually put the 4th book above the 2nd.....I think.



Oh yeah I missed the "WoT" in that post lol , and people actually do complain about Dance and Feast not being as good as the first three too , mostly because of Dorne and also Dany's chapters.

Anyway I'm reading Shadow Rising right now.


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## Kor (Nov 21, 2012)

I would've liked the Dorne chapters more if most of them weren't from rather dull POV's like Areo who simply stands around and listens and Arys Oakheart who's POV just told us about nothing but Arianne's nipples. 

But in Feast my favorite would be the Jaime chapters and Brienne, Jaime for his path to redemption and Brienne because we see the world through the eyes of smallfolk.


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## White (Nov 22, 2012)

I liked Areos points of view. A lotof his chapters dragged, but then others contained cool revelations. Yeah Briennes had a real sense of movement in her chapters.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Nov 22, 2012)

Arianne's Dorne chapters were the only interesting ones. Arys was rather forgettable and Areo was basically a plot-device character akin to what Davos originally was, someone to tell a leader's story without actually being the leader (Doran instead of Stannis). 

I am curious how the Darkstar plot line will finish, I'm worried it'll end with Balon Swann dead who unfortunately is one of the only Kingsguard that deserve the white cloak


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Dec 22, 2012)

martryn said:


> Modern young readers have short attention spans.  We're an age of instant gratification.  This is why a lot of people in this thread thought the Dorne chapters were really boring while I thought it was the best part of the 4th book.


Dorne is the main reason the fourth book is my second favorite despite it not having three of my top five(Stannis, Tyrion and Barristan), especially Doran Martell who is a top level player of the game of thrones.


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## Xnr (Dec 25, 2012)

I have just read the five books in 50 days after I finished the first two seasons and am a bit disappointed at how they handled S3. Now I've read they'll have extra-long eps for S3 and a finale of over an hour and wonder if S3 will be the whole of book 3, not just part 1.


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## Kikyo (Dec 26, 2012)

Got _The Feast of Ice and Fire_ for Christmas. I'm looking forward to making some of the dishes later.


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## EndofDiscussion (Dec 29, 2012)

I just read this series this summer and I'd say it's definitely one of my favorite.  Probably my least favorite thing about these books are the Cersei chapters in AFFC and the Tyrion chapters in ADWD, other than that I really enjoyed just about everything


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## LegendaryBeauty (Dec 29, 2012)

Disliking the Cersei chapters? Shame on you.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 30, 2012)

I myself still am wondering how Brienne apparently survived being hung at the end of _A Feast for Crows,_ and what her brief appearance in _A Dance with Dragons_ means for Jaime. I do hope that Martin explores that mystery in greater detail in the next book.


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## EndofDiscussion (Dec 30, 2012)

I'm pretty sure she just agreed to kill Jamie...


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 30, 2012)

EndofDiscussion said:


> I'm pretty sure she just agreed to kill Jamie...



I am sorry, but I do not recall that happening, so could you please refresh my memory? And why would she want to kill Jaime? Did the two of them not become fairly close, or at least come to understand each other, during their travels together?


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## Anarch (Dec 30, 2012)

^ Cat ( or whatever she's become ) spares Brienne on the condition that she kill Jaime , to avenge her ( Cat's ) family. In the last book we see Jaime disappear with Brienne , we have no idea where or why. I think she'll lead him to Cat and the other outlaws , but I doubt that she'll kill him.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 30, 2012)

Anarch said:


> ^ Cat ( or whatever she's become ) spares Brienne on the condition that she kill Jaime , to avenge her ( Cat's ) family. In the last book we see Jaime disappear with Brienne , we have no idea where or why. I think she'll lead him to Cat and the other outlaws , but I doubt that she'll kill him.



Catelyn is now known as Lady Stoneheart, and I thank you for refreshing my memory on that subject. I do not believe that Brienne shall turn Jaime over to her, as Brienne is one of the few truly honorable characters in this series, and she was appalled by Catelyn's newfound zeal and cruelty.

On that subject, does anyone here believe that Jaime and Brienne would work as a romantic couple? I certainly do, as Brienne is the complete opposite of Cersei in nearly every way: she is honest and true, while Cersei is scheming and manipulative; she is straightforward and does her own work, while Cersei makes others do her bidding, and I hope that Jaime is not bothered by her lack of physical attractiveness. And Jaime seems to be one of the few men who have genuinely respected Brienne and has not scorned her for her refusal to adhere to traditional roles for women in Westeros. Does anyone else here believe that they are romantically compatible with each other?


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## Fierce (Dec 30, 2012)

She's too ugly for him.


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## Scholzee (Dec 31, 2012)

I think they may but not for certain, and I dont think she will kill him but she will lead him to the outlaws and then regret it and save him


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## Sen (Dec 31, 2012)

I love the idea of them together~  

I think it would be great too for Jaime to pick someone so beautiful on the inside and honorable after being betrayed by Cersei.  I'm mostly just afraid that one of them is going to die (or both of them) before they could actually get together  

I agree with Scholzee that if she does lead him to Cat, then she will save him since I think that cares about him too much to let him die.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Jan 1, 2013)

After a reread of a CoK's prologue, I think it may just be my favorite chapter in the entire series. For being in only one chapter, Maester Cressen is a very well done character. I'm not sure I've ever empathized with a character more than him in that chapter, with his regrets over failing the men that had been like sons to him. Its the kind of character you don't get to read the viewpoint of often, the regretful old father/father figure(the only PoV character that is somewhat like him in ASoIaF is Barristan), especially not as well done as this. Martin does a great job of selling his love for Stannis, which is all the more heartbreaking when he gets treated like a fool near the end of the chapter. Stannis is my favorite character in the series but the fact that he allowed that to happen is the one time I've really disliked his actions(its lessened by the fact that he did draw the line with his wife and said he still respects and appreciates what Cressen did for him in the past).


----------



## EndofDiscussion (Jan 1, 2013)

I don't necessarily think Brienne will actually kill Jamie, but remember that he is being made to choose between betraying Jamie or letting Podrick die.

Personally I think she either has a plan to try and save both of them, or is hoping that Jamie will think of one.

I also think that if neither Jamie or Brienne dies in the next book, they have a high chance of hooking up for at east a while.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jan 1, 2013)

Fierce said:


> She's too ugly for him.



Surely, Jaime is not so close-minded as to allow Brienne's physical appearance to detract from her personality? He previously was in love with Cersei, who was extremely attractive, and she betrayed him, so perhaps he shall be more flexible and open-minded in his future choices of romantic partners?


----------



## Nae'blis (Jan 1, 2013)

Jaime hasn't been with any other woman besides Cersei.


----------



## Fierce (Jan 1, 2013)

I think Jaime regards her highly as a person, but not romantically.


----------



## Nae'blis (Jan 1, 2013)

I can totally see it happening now that he learned of the betrayal by Cersei. I think he could love her in some queer fashion.


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## Sen (Jan 4, 2013)

I don't think that Jaime is really that shallow, so that's why I could see him overlooking her appearance since he's really begun to like her personality-wise.  



WolfPrinceKiba said:


> After a reread of a CoK's prologue, I think it may just be my favorite chapter in the entire series. For being in only one chapter, Maester Cressen is a very well done character. I'm not sure I've ever empathized with a character more than him in that chapter, with his regrets over failing the men that had been like sons to him. Its the kind of character you don't get to read the viewpoint of often, the regretful old father/father figure(the only PoV character that is somewhat like him in ASoIaF is Barristan), especially not as well done as this. Martin does a great job of selling his love for Stannis, which is all the more heartbreaking when he gets treated like a fool near the end of the chapter. Stannis is my favorite character in the series but the fact that he allowed that to happen is the one time I've really disliked his actions(its lessened by the fact that he did draw the line with his wife and said he still respects and appreciates what Cressen did for him in the past).



That was a very good chapter.  Stannis isn't my favorite though since he is so harsh towards everyone, plus I think he would have sacrificed Edric Storm (who was innocent) just to get what he wanted if Davos hadn't interfered.  For someone that is supposed to be high on morals, that seemed pretty hypocritical.  That's why I really like Davos, he is loyal and straight forward.  Stannis was wise to pick someone that balances well with him, I'll give him that.


----------



## Shrike (Jan 4, 2013)

It's not a matter of him being shallow or not. It's simply not realistic for him to be romantically involved with her no matter how much it 'fits'. Physical appearance matters a lot, and anybody who says different is lying to himself.

If you call that shallow, then human beings are shallow. I simply cannot be attracted to somebody whom I can't even kiss without some kind of emotion towards their appearance, let alone if that person is far from being an eye candy. Fuck that. It's especially not realistic for somebody who looks like Jaime who is supposedly Brad Pitt of aSoIaF.


----------



## masamune1 (Jan 4, 2013)

Yeah, no one in history has _ever_ hooked up with somebody less attractive than themselves. Its a pure fantasy and it never, ever happens anywhere. Every handsome or beautiful person on the planet is, was and always will be with someone who is as drop-dead gorgeous as themselves.

And in case you can't tell, I'm being sarcastic.


----------



## Shrike (Jan 4, 2013)

Sure, Brad Pitt was with the fattest chick in the world and he didn't mind at all. It's not less attractive, it's totally opposite - one is great looking, other his horrendously ugly. Sure, it happens sometimes that they get together. Seriously, get the fuck out virgin.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Jan 4, 2013)

Sen said:


> Stannis isn't my favorite though since he is so harsh towards everyone,


Hes not exactly harsh by nature, its more that hes surrounded by kiss-asses which he can't stand. Hes more just a very blunt person who speaks his mind. Hes not harsh towards Davos who is honest and not a suck-up. Its also understandable why he is so disgruntled towards others, hes received little acknowledgement for his accomplishments and people who have accomplished nothing like Renly are given support due to being more popular. 




> plus I think he would have sacrificed Edric Storm (who was innocent) just to get what he wanted if Davos hadn't interfered.  For someone that is supposed to be high on morals, that seemed pretty hypocritical.


He rejected the idea of sacrificing Edric Storm numerous times before giving actual consideration for it. 



> "Give me the boy, your Grace. It is the surer way. The better way. Give me the boy and I will wake the stone dragon."
> "I have told you, no."
> "He is only one baseborn boy, against all the boys of Westeros, and all the girls as well. Against all the children that might ever be born, in all the kingdoms of the world."
> "The boy is innocent."
> ...



The reason he gave consideration to it is not to get what he wanted, its because hes having an identity crisis of sorts with the whole Azor Ahai reborn thing. Melisandre has been saying that he is the one who will save the world and while hes been very doubtful one can't help but think it may be true after seeing Melisandre's powers at work. Melisandre plays on the wrongs done to him and tries to manipulate him in that way and backed into a corner he somewhat starts to give in.



> "He is only one boy, born of your brothers lust and my cousins shame."
> "He is mine own blood, stop clutching me, woman. Perhaps Robert did curse our marriage bed. He swore to me that he never meant to shame me, that he was drunk and never knew which bedchamber he entered that night. But does it matter? The boy was not at fault, whatever the truth."
> "The Lord of Light cherishes the innocent. There is no sacrifice more precious. From his kings blood and his untainted fire, a dragon shall be born."
> "It would be a wondrous thing to see stone come to life. And to mount a dragon...I remember the first time my father took me to court, Robert had to hold my hand. I could not have been older than four, which would have made him five or six. We agreed that the king had been as noble as the dragons were fearsome. Robert took the skulls down when he donned the crown but he could not bear to have them destroyed. Dragon wings over Westeros...there would be such a...."





> "Sire, about Edric Storm..."
> "Spare me."
> "Your daughter takes her lessons with him and plays with him every day in Aegon's Garden."
> "I know that."
> ...





> That's why I really like Davos, he is loyal and straight forward.  Stannis was wise to pick someone that balances well with him, I'll give him that.


The Stannis we see interacting with Davos is I believe the real Stannis, how he was before Melisandre came along. Cressen said he was harsh yes but never cruel, that he may not have known laughter but in turn he also didn't know mockery, yet once under the influence of Melisandre he shows a bit of cruelty by allowing Cressen to be treated like a fool by his wife.


----------



## Corruption (Jan 9, 2013)

GRRM just released a new _The Winds of Winter_ chapter. It's an Arianne POV chapter.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jan 10, 2013)

Only prissy little sissies hate on Stannis. Citing the Edric Storm case shows how inept and narrow your understanding truly is

Stannis is one of the greatest men in the whole aSoIaF world. Him not being some stupid little lovey dovey faget shithead is why he's awesome, go ship your butterflies and rainbows bullshit somewhere else


----------



## Nic (Feb 4, 2013)

The Jon Snow cliffhanger is a bit dumb considering the author himself said Jon would eventually learn about his parents.   Can't exactly do that while dead.....


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 7, 2013)

I read the new sample chapter, and it seemed to be rather uneventful, apart from some of the major characters doubting that Jon Connington and Aegon VI are whom they claim to be. We, the audience, already know that Jon is indeed who he claims to be, as we have the benefit of perspective, and while there is no conclusive evidence yet to prove Aegon's identity, what other explanation exists for his violet-colored eyes? Martin has made it clear that the violet eyes are a distinct trait of the Targaryen bloodline, so I find it to be very unlikely that Aegon is a pretender, unless there is some way to alter a person's eye color in this series (other than by being raised from the dead, which seems to occur only in the far north of Westeros).


----------



## Fierce (Feb 8, 2013)

Purple eyes aren't exclusive to Targaryens. Anyone with strong Valyrian blood can have them.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 8, 2013)

Fierce said:


> Purple eyes aren't exclusive to Targaryens. Anyone with strong Valyrian blood can have them.



I doubt that an average citizen of Westeros knows that, and it still lends great credence to Aegon's claims of his identity, since the Targaryens are the only known surviving Valyrians.

Nic, I agree that if Martin shall be delving further into the mystery of Jon Snow's parentage, it is highly unlikely that Jon shall die at any point soon, since there would be little purpose in exploring his heritage if he were not around to learn from it.


----------



## Fierce (Feb 8, 2013)

They say half the whores of Lys have purple eyes and white-blond hair.


----------



## Nae'blis (Feb 8, 2013)

Violet eyes are big for House Targaryen since they all have it. It does appear a few times, but I can't say that those people in Westeros are not descendants of Targaryens.


----------



## Nic (Feb 12, 2013)

Stannis is a great character actually and i look forward to how he develops in the next book.  I definitely see him winning against the host of Freys and Ramsay's host coming his way considering who is leading them.  

Also in no way is he AA.  I think it's fairly evident that her so called lord of light led Mel to the Wall and Jon Snow for an obvious reason. one particular quote in the book as her looking through the flames asking her lord of light to show her AA, her true King, Stannis, and all he shows her is Jon Snow. 

Aegon is likely a blackfyre. 

Seems like Daenarys was a red herring for being the Prince that Was Promised (AA) unless there are two in this series after the assassination attempt fulfilling a lot of the conditions of the prophecy with the stars bleeding from Patrek's cloack, Bowen's tears, and jon's wounds smoking among his dream of wielding lightbringer while pushing the others back.  Always thought it made more sense since Rhaegar was trying to give birth to the Prince that Was promised and that Jon is the son of Fire and Ice and the son that no one but Ned and Holland Reed knew he had.


----------



## Nic (Feb 12, 2013)

Ishamael said:


> Read the series over the past couple weeks. First three books are as terrific as everyone made them out to be. AFFC is an enjoyable read (Jaime's and Cersei's povs are very interesting) but it slows the series down drastically. Dany and Tyrion's plot lines in ADWD just felt pointless until the end of the novel but the rest of it was good if not as great as the first three novels.
> 
> Haven't really had the time to research fan theories as I tried my best to avoid spoilers but what is the speculated end game for Bran and Arya? It just seems like there is so much ground for the two of them left to cover in the last two novels (I don't see how the series can be wrapped in two books at all unless they have 2000 pages a piece) and I can't see them being tied back into the main plot easily (Arya more so then Bran).



Martin has stated that the last two books will both be over 1500 pages long.

Bran will be a powerful Greenseer and will spend most of his time helping Jon and the Wildings (and whomever else joins later) in their fight against the others.

Arya is a bit hard to figure out but she's being trained as an assassin so in the end i'm guessing she'll return to Westeros most likely on a mission to kill an important character or ruler and then Martin will go from there.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Feb 15, 2013)

While Stannis being AA or not doesn't matter much to me, he would be my favorite regardless, it would be great if he truly was AA in the end solely because everyone thinks hes a fake.


----------



## Mr.Blonde (Feb 15, 2013)

I think GRRM is taking all of us for a big ride with this Azhor Azhai/TPTWP business. I don't think anyone will turn out to be Azhor Azhai, at least not in the sense we expect it. Or maybe there will be multiple Azhor Azhais.

As for Stannis, he's definitely one of the best and most complex characters in the series. It's hard to actually pick a favorite from so many great characters, but Stannis is the closest thing to a favorite for me.


----------



## The Big G (Feb 16, 2013)

Mr.Blonde said:


> I think GRRM is taking all of us for a big ride with this Azhor Azhai/TPTWP business. I don't think anyone will turn out to be Azhor Azhai, at least not in the sense we expect it. *Or maybe there will be multiple Azhor Azhais.*



Dani and Jon are co-AA


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## Anarch (Feb 16, 2013)

Jon Snow is AA. It is known.

I'm very critical of Stannis but that is one of reasons i love his character , and he is one of my favourites.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 16, 2013)

Anarch said:


> Jon Snow is AA. It is known.



You say that as if it is an undeniable fact, but has there ever been any conclusive proof in the series?

What about the Horn of Winter? The horn that Melisandre destroyed was a fake, so the real horn, if it exists, is still present somewhere, and I am certain that after it was mentioned so prominently, it shall not be forgotten.


----------



## DocTerror (Feb 16, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> You say that as if it is an undeniable fact, but has there ever been any conclusive proof in the series?



Only speculation so far.



Anarch said:


> Jon Snow is AA. It is known.
> 
> I'm very critical of Stannis but that is one of reasons i love his character , and he is one of my favourites.



You know nothing, Anarch.

Dani is AA


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## Nic (Feb 26, 2013)

meh I think Dany is a red herring and if anything she's going to turn into one of the main antagonists. GRRM has left possible foreshadowing of it with her last chapter and change of mind of concquering through fire and blood and the fact that she was born out of i*c*st and rape. Something that comes up again and again by GRRM through characters giving reasons why for a person's evil such as Ramsay Snow for example. Either that or they are easily corrupted into turning evil. Also Aeris wasn't born evil either he became mad halfway through his rule.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Feb 27, 2013)

There's been more subtle hints for Jon being AA. If I had to pick an individual, I'd pick everyone's favourite bastard

That said I wouldn't mind if it is Dany or some joint between Tyrion-Dany-Jon


----------



## Demetrius (Feb 28, 2013)

bought the first book

someone tell me what i'm in for


----------



## Magnum Miracles (Feb 28, 2013)

Loads of epicness and trolling .

Don't come in this thread though until you finish up the series. Spoilers are fucking everywhere.


----------



## Fierce (Feb 28, 2013)

Trinity said:


> bought the first book
> 
> someone tell me what i'm in for



Potentially the best fantasy series of all time. Infinitely better than the awful show.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Mar 1, 2013)

Fierce said:


> Potentially the best fantasy series of all time. Infinitely better than the awful show.



I have never seen the television series, so I cannot comment about it, but I do agree that this is an awesome book series. It defies many of the established archetypes of medieval fantasy, so I have found it to be very unpredictable, which certainly makes it more exciting and suspenseful. I also agree with Magnum Bookworm,; you should avoid reading this thread until you are current with the books, as I did, to avoid any spoilers, which would certainly ruin the experience of the series.


----------



## Eri (Mar 2, 2013)

I don't think Dany is going to fail spectacularily, but I seriously doubt she's gonna end up on the throne. Maybe for a short while but not at the end of the series.
She is also (imo) not AA. Jon? Maybe.

As for the three heads.... Dany - Jon - ??? (Tyrion? Bran?...)

And I agree. The TV Series sucks.


----------



## Magnum Miracles (Mar 3, 2013)

I'm expecting a fiery hell will be made before Dany dies(if she does).


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## corsair (Mar 3, 2013)

Even if Aegon is only a pretender (I think he is a blackfyre too) he could still have enough of the blood. I would count him as one of the possible heads.

And I personally think there will be three possible AAs too. The TV series is not too bad, but the books are far better.


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## Nic (Mar 5, 2013)

the three heads are Dani, Tyrion, and Jon, that became clear immediately after it was revealed (well as soon as Lyanna being Jon's mother is revealed), that all three had their mothers die while giving them birth.


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## DemonDragonJ (Mar 5, 2013)

Nic said:


> the three heads are Dani, Tyrion, and Jon, that became clear immediately after it was revealed (well as soon as Lyanna being Jon's mother is revealed), that all three had their mothers die while giving them birth.



I believe that you are being extremely presumptuous with that statement, as there still is no evidence of Jon's parentage, so we, the audience, cannot be certain that his mother died giving birth to him.


----------



## Nic (Mar 5, 2013)

"she lay in a bed of blood", yeah i don't need to be presumptuous to know what that means.


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## Parallax (Mar 5, 2013)

Tyrion is the head scratcher of the three though, at least imo

also I think that Rhaegar was the Prince that Was Promised, Martin would do something fucked up like that


----------



## Nic (Mar 5, 2013)

well GRMM said that there would be a Second Dance of Dragons, so it's quite possible those three will be at odds later on. :33


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Mar 5, 2013)

Nic said:


> "she lay in a bed of blood", yeah i don't need to be presumptuous to know what that means.


Clearly Rhaegar showered her with rubies before he left. She's still in the Tower of Joy waiting for her prince to return. pek


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## omg laser pew pew! (Mar 5, 2013)

corsair said:


> Even if Aegon is only a pretender (I think he is a blackfyre too) he could still have enough of the blood. I would count him as one of the possible heads.
> 
> And I personally think there will be three possible AAs too. The TV series is not too bad, but the books are far better.



Aegon's targ blood would be incredibly diluted compared to others like Jon and Dany. Heck even the Mannis likely has more dragon blood than Faegon. Him looking like a targ is just a damn coincidence when you compare it to others like Rhaenys, Baelor Breakspear and Jon



DemonDragonJ said:


> I believe that you are being extremely presumptuous with that statement, as there still is no evidence of Jon's parentage, so we, the audience, cannot be certain that his mother died giving birth to him.



lol



Parallax said:


> Tyrion is the head scratcher of the three though, at least imo
> 
> also I think that Rhaegar was the Prince that Was Promised, Martin would do something fucked up like that



gurm has said that the heads don't have to have dragon blood. I think Tyrion is the last head because he fits the birth theme as well, their father's 3rd born children that resulted in their mothers deaths. Tyrion has dreamed of dragons since a child and those 3 account for the most POVs in the books


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## DocTerror (Mar 6, 2013)

Wow so I never thought of the possibility of Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegars kid and that whole thing with Dani/Tyrion/Jon being the third child whose mother died in child birth is mind blowing.


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## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Mar 6, 2013)

He is one of my favourite but i dont see Tyrion riding a dragon. I think he will play a big part as Dani advisor but nothing more than that and pimping around the palace. 
Aegon will marry Arya, she will be enough of a dragon for him 

But who knows, Martin is just a troll for prophecies or destiny


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## omg laser pew pew! (Mar 7, 2013)

I see your mother riding my dragon


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## hcheng02 (Mar 25, 2013)

omg laser pew pew! said:


> There's been more subtle hints for Jon being AA. If I had to pick an individual, I'd pick everyone's favourite bastard
> 
> That said I wouldn't mind if it is Dany or some joint between Tyrion-Dany-Jon



Isn't Azor Ahai supposed to wake dragons from stone or something? Where does Jon do anything like that? The only person who has done anything like that would be Dany.


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## Shark Skin (Mar 25, 2013)

I've always thought that AA, or the symbolic "returned" AA, was some combination of characters. Jon and Dany would definitely be among those that could be AA. I've alsways considered that Stannis (since Melissandre considers him to be AA)  might also be there, but interesting seeing Tyrion being someone that you guys consider as a possibility as well.


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## hcheng02 (Mar 25, 2013)

Shark Skin said:


> I've always thought that AA, or the symbolic "returned" AA, was some combination of characters. Jon and Dany would definitely be among those that could be AA. I've alsways considered that Stannis (since Melissandre considers him to be AA)  might also be there, but interesting seeing Tyrion being someone that you guys consider as a possibility as well.



To be sure, Jon's one of my favorite characters and I definitely would like him to be AA. Its just that Jon doesn't really seem to fit into that "awakan the stone dragon" portion.

Also, it just occurred to me. Lots of people are thinking that Jon will survive by warging into his wolf while his body is preserved in the Wall's ice cells. However, wouldn't the Night Watch want to burn his body ASAP as a precaution against him becoming a White Walker's wight?


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## Shark Skin (Mar 25, 2013)

hcheng02 said:


> To be sure, Jon's one of my favorite characters and I definitely would like him to be AA. Its just that Jon doesn't really seem to fit into that "awakan the stone dragon" portion.
> 
> Also, it just occurred to me. Lots of people are thinking that Jon will survive by warging into his wolf while his body is preserved in the Wall's ice cells. However, wouldn't the Night Watch want to burn his body ASAP as a precaution against him becoming a White Walker's wight?



I think that's why many (including myself) believe that the reincarnation of AA isn't just one person, but several people. Hell, AA might be more of a symbolic figure than an actual person. 

As for Jon surviving via warging, its possible. But I think he would have to be near death and not actually dead. And of course there'd have to be someone willing to keep him alive (Melissandre, maybe?) while he recovers. If his human body dies then I think what you said would be a real possibility.


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## DemonDragonJ (Mar 26, 2013)

Early in this story, I presumed that Joffrey would be a major antagonist, because he seemed to be a clear candidate for such a character, although that was before I became familiar with Martin's habit for avoiding common archetypes of medieval fantasy. As the story progressed, I became ever more certain that Joffrey would be one of the main antagonists by the end of the series, but then he died, clearly shattering that expectation.

However, I wonder when Martin made that decision: had he originally planned for Joffrey to be a major antagonist when he initially conceived his character, and then changed his mind later; or was Joffrey always intended to be only a temporary antagonist? Does anyone here know anything about that?


----------



## martryn (Mar 26, 2013)

I personally think that Martin gets too much credit for the whole "defying the genre" thing.  He killed Ned.  Ok.  Maybe picking up the book the first time, knowing it was going to be a major series, this fact would be surprising.  Nothing else has really been all that "genre" defying.  I see tons of fantasy archetypes that Martin succumbs too, like a lot of good fantasy writers, and that's not such a bad thing. 

You could argue that he killed Robb, too, but Robb was never really a main character, was he?  He didn't have any PoVs, or, if he did, there weren't very many.  He allowed Bran and Rickon to more or less escape, he allowed Tyrion to get away and survive death on multiple occasions now, and Arya and Sansa both are alive and "healthy".  Dany has suffered some hardships, but she's still alive and kicking as well.  Nothing genre defying there.

Course, maybe I'm not reading all the fluff fantasy that you guys are, and am used to this sort of thing.  But I think more likely is the fact that Martin killed Ned, a lot of people didn't see it coming, and now a lot of people are convinced that Martin kills all his main characters.  

Honestly, all the discussion in this thread about how Jon is going to survive, and we seem to forget that if Martin was what people think he is, Jon is already ash, Ghost as well, and the Night's Watch make a habit of stopping by a shitting on his gravestone. 



> Early in this story, I presumed that Joffrey would be a major antagonist, because he seemed to be a clear candidate for such a character, although that was before I became familiar with Martin's habit for avoiding common archetypes of medieval fantasy. As the story progressed, I became ever more certain that Joffrey would be one of the main antagonists by the end of the series, but then he died, clearly shattering that expectation.
> 
> However, I wonder when Martin made that decision: had he originally planned for Joffrey to be a major antagonist when he initially conceived his character, and then changed his mind later; or was Joffrey always intended to be only a temporary antagonist? Does anyone here know anything about that?



Never, once, got that impression.  Cersei, yes; Joffrey, no.  He was a spoiled little bitch of a kid, with a bit of power, but Martin made a point of showing how cowardly and incompetent he really was throughout his reign, and even before.  

Course, every character has their own antagonists.  Joffrey served as a great one for Sansa, but Cersei and Tywin were Tyrion's.  And Tyrion is much more pivotal to the story than Sansa has been.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Mar 26, 2013)

hcheng02 said:


> Isn't Azor Ahai supposed to wake dragons from stone or something? Where does Jon do anything like that? The only person who has done anything like that would be Dany.



Because taking things literally is the best thing to do when reading the books


----------



## Amrun (Mar 26, 2013)

Honestly, that's the most compelling reason that Dany is NOT AA: too fucking obvious.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Mar 28, 2013)

Amrun said:


> Honestly, that's the most compelling reason that Dany is NOT AA: too fucking obvious.


Which may be why she truly is AA, people think its too obvious to happen

The opposite is true for Stannis, no one believes he is AA because everyone thinks hes a fake one due to various reasons. 

Jon is the middlefield player in terms of what the books have pointed to so far.


----------



## Nic (Mar 28, 2013)

hcheng02 said:


> To be sure, Jon's one of my favorite characters and I definitely would like him to be AA. Its just that Jon doesn't really seem to fit into that "awakan the stone dragon" portion.
> 
> Also, it just occurred to me. Lots of people are thinking that Jon will survive by warging into his wolf while his body is preserved in the Wall's ice cells. However, wouldn't the Night Watch want to burn his body ASAP as a precaution against him becoming a White Walker's wight?



Mel would simply do the same thing she did for Mance with Jon.


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## Nae'blis (Mar 29, 2013)

Jon being Azor Ahai would be the most annoying shit ever. Can't stand him and the pandering Martin does to the fangirls. I wish that it was supposed to be Rhaegar, but seeing as he is dead the world is fucked.


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## Psychic (Mar 29, 2013)

Both GRRM and Kishimoto strikes me as a misogynist, sure there's powerful female characters in their books/mangas, but they all amount to nothing compared with the main character. We know AA is the "prince" that was promised, not "princess" so I think it's safe to rule Dany out.

GRRM said in an interview, that someone had figure out who AA was and posted it on  the internet. He said that he wasn't gonna change the storyline just because someone figured it out, which leads me to believe the "promise me Ned," Jon Snow is the prince who was promised, keyword here _*prince*_.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Mar 29, 2013)

Because a thousands-of-years-old prophecy couldn't suffer translation issues.


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## Torpedo Titz (Mar 29, 2013)

I'll be surprised if Jon _isn't_ the Prince that was Promised. In fact, I've taken it as quasi-fact for so long that I'm more interested in subtler things. Old Nan's stories ('The Last Hero' or whatever); the Daynes and Blackfyres, etc.

Before it's said - I'm not someone who has utterly annihilated suspense or intrigue for myself by endlessly trawling through ASOIAF theory threads (especially on Westeros.org). It's just a strong impression garnered from the source material.


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## Nic (Mar 29, 2013)

funny thing is Dany doesn't fit the AA prophecy literally either since she doesn't have the Sword.  The same sword Jon actually had a dream (usually prophetic with the Stark kids) weilding it and fighting the others.


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## Amrun (Mar 29, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Which may be why she truly is AA, people think its too obvious to happen
> 
> The opposite is true for Stannis, no one believes he is AA because everyone thinks hes a fake one due to various reasons.
> 
> Jon is the middlefield player in terms of what the books have pointed to so far.



Yes, that's true.  But people have directly called her AA, or so I vaguely remember, and quite early on, which makes me think "red herring."

I almost want it to be Stannis for the lulz but he's so boring.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Mar 29, 2013)

_A Feast for Crows_, Samwell On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves wise! *The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years.* _Daenerys_ is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I _must_. Would that I was even ten years younger."​And people suppose that the promised prince(ss) and Azor Ahai are the same person. If they are separate and Jon is Azor Ahai, whose heart will he skewer to create Lightbringer?


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## Nic (Mar 29, 2013)

I seriously doubt anyone is going to skewer another's heart to make lightbringer.  Heck i wouldn't be surprised if Jon's actions that resulted in Ygrette's death would suffice considering he sacrificed his love t to her for his oath.


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## Psychic (Mar 29, 2013)

hmm....the old man has lost it.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Apr 2, 2013)

Psychic said:


> Both GRRM and Kishimoto strikes me as a misogynist, sure there's powerful female characters in their books/mangas, but they all amount to nothing compared with the main character. We know AA is the "prince" that was promised, not "princess" so I think it's safe to rule Dany out.
> 
> GRRM said in an interview, that someone had figure out who AA was and posted it on  the internet. He said that he wasn't gonna change the storyline just because someone figured it out, which leads me to believe the "promise me Ned," Jon Snow is the prince who was promised, keyword here _*prince*_.



You're a horrible fan, if you want me to explain why I will but don't have a cry when I hurt your feelings


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## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Apr 5, 2013)

Misogynist?? That's very very wrong.

Danaerys, Arya and Sansa are having a great characterization and a big to huge role into the picture.

What about Oberyn Martell's daughters, Cersei, Margaery, Melisandre, Ygritte and the princess of the wildlings,Val. They maybe had less "screentime", but all of them have been properly handled so far.


----------



## Nae'blis (Apr 5, 2013)

> Sansa [noparse]hahahahahahaha lul[/noparse], no u.

This series is a period piece and frankly Daenerys/Arya have no business doing what they are doing, but they worked for their lot. They are also part of the most compelling characters in the series coupled with Jon/Tyrion/Jaime/Petyr.


----------



## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Apr 5, 2013)

I personally like Sansa and her development. 
The others may be more compelling because they have more _action_, i like them too but i still prefer Sansa's ordeal, for me she is the one that has grown the most.


----------



## Nic (Apr 5, 2013)

I would still like to know how she has grown.  Petyr has taught her to shut up and that's what she has done.  If that's great development, then I don't know what to say.


----------



## martryn (Apr 5, 2013)

I think Sansa has reached the point in the story where she's about to start having a major impact on events.  There's been lead-up to it.  I think the next novel will be very telling.


----------



## Nae'blis (Apr 5, 2013)

I don't see it. She still hasn't done anything that helps me think she is not an idiot.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Apr 8, 2013)

Then you're just someone else with shallow understanding of what Sansa's story is about.


----------



## martryn (Apr 8, 2013)

As I keep arguing, George RR Martin is not a genre bender.  The story has a few twists in it, sure, but a lot of other things are happening pretty much how the fans are saying they're going to happen.


----------



## Suigetsu (Apr 17, 2013)

About Ashara Dayne:

*Spoiler*: __ 



My guess on the subject lies with: Ned dishonored Ashara then promised to marry her. Ned's dad doesn't agree, Ned is sad. Selmy perhaps knows that, that's why he still have some respect for Ned, but deep down he still has some anger toward the Stark that dishonored Ashara.

Ashara's brother dies
Ashara looses her daughter
Ned wont marry her

Fuck everything, quits life.




About Sansa:

*Spoiler*: __ 



I think that the new Targaryen brat will want to have her so he can "secure the north's alliance" Either with him or Edric Dayne" the Dayne's rock hardcore yeahhh! 




Daenerys:

*Spoiler*: __ 



She is a stupid teenage bitch, I don't like her. Targaryens are inbred assholes. An dragons are a childish concept, never the less If I have to root for a Targaryen then I will do so for the new Brat.




And finally I want to see Darkstar vs Balon Swann, YEAHHH!!!


----------



## siyrean (Apr 17, 2013)

Nic said:


> I would still like to know how she has grown.  Petyr has taught her to shut up and that's what she has done.  If that's great development, then I don't know what to say.



She's learning the game. She picked up right away that Lynn Corbry was in LFs pocket. And all her hardships have not embittered her, like with Arya, but strengthened her resolve to be a good person. For me, her development is most interesting, because it's the most realistic.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Apr 17, 2013)

I have definitely been enjoying Sansa's character development. I was initially annoyed by how ignorant she was, believing that Joffrey simply had to be good and just because of his appearance, but I am very glad to see that she has been learning to not judge others by their appearances and to not trust other people unquestioningly, and being under the care of Littlefinger, one of the best schemers in the story, is certainly very beneficial for her. One thing that I find to be unfortunate is that she did not renounce Joffrey while she still had the chance to do so. For example, after his true nature became apparent to her, I dearly wanted her to say "How could I ever have loved someone like you?" or "I cannot believe that I ever loved someone like you!" How great would that have been?


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## Amrun (Apr 17, 2013)

siyrean said:


> *She's learning the game.* She picked up right away that Lynn Corbry was in LFs pocket. And all her hardships have not embittered her, like with Arya, but strengthened her resolve to be a good person. For me, her development is most interesting, because it's the most realistic.



This, exactly.

I started out really hating her character, as I think readers were meant to, and now I enjoy her immensely.

She is the most human of the whole series, I think.  The one people can identify with and think they might react this way.

And I am UTTERLY FASCINATED with her relationship with the Hound.

In fact, I think I ship Hound/Sansa.


----------



## Lucaniel (Apr 17, 2013)

sansa's one of the best characters in the series and her arc from innocence to experience has been excellent

anyone who thinks she's an 'idiot' is a pleb


----------



## siyrean (Apr 17, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> One thing that I find to be unfortunate is that she did not renounce Joffrey while she still had the chance to do so. For example, after his true nature became apparent to her, I dearly wanted her to say "How could I ever have loved someone like you?" or "I cannot believe that I ever loved someone like you!" How great would that have been?



you mean like attempt to throw him from the battlements? 



> In fact, I think I ship Hound/Sansa.


 :amazed yes, yes, come join us.


----------



## Suigetsu (Apr 17, 2013)

The hound is dead, back into his kennel.


----------



## Shrike (Apr 18, 2013)

Sansa and Cat (while she wasn't undead) were the most human characters. Really well written females.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 19, 2013)

Suigetsu said:


> The hound is dead, back into his kennel.



There's also sorts of clues that he's not, in fact, dead.

Re: Cat, I fucking hate her, to be honest.

That's not to say I don't enjoy her character, because I do.  But I hate her most of the time, on a personal level.  I can't get over how horrible she was to Jon.

I LOOOOOOVED the scene from the most recent episode of the tv show, where she 
*Spoiler*: __ 



talked about her inability to love Jon and how she feels it is her failing


 and had this scene been real, I probably would like her a lot more.


----------



## Shark Skin (Apr 19, 2013)

^Same here. I mean I can understand why she was that way with Jon, but I still don't like it lol.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 19, 2013)

Yeah, I mean, it's a human reaction.  But I dislike her for it anyway.

Especially since it wasn't a love match to begin with.  She would have married his brother.

The scene from the show I mentioned really rounds it out and gives her a lot more depth, I think. Shame it isn't in the books.

In fact, I feel like a LOT of recent scenes from the show are really fabulous, and occasionally better than the books.  Kind of surprises me.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Apr 19, 2013)

While it may not have started a love match, I got the impression that Cat and Ned did love each other. I don't hate Cat personally, shes not one of my top favorites but I looked forward to her chapters and thought she was quite well written. While her reaction to Jon was harsh, its understandable especially during the scene with Jon, Bran and Catelyn when Jon is leaving. We don't live in their time so its harder to understand a nobles feelings towards a bastard. It is a sign of dishonor to the house and the wife and more importantly, bastards have killed siblings to become heirs in the past.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 19, 2013)

Yes, they do love each other, but the author went out of his way to explain that they didn't grow to love one another until AFTER the war in which Jon happened (though I doubt he's Ned's son anyway).  They got married and he got shipped to war before they got to know one another.

And yes, I do find her reaction totally understandable.  I just like her less as a person for it.  I still enjoy her characterization.  I often enjoy the characters I don't like.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Apr 19, 2013)

As for Sansa, I believe she was written to be hated at first. I despised reading her chapters in the first couple of books, except for some parts with the Hound. Her character has gotten somewhat better since then and I have loved her chapters since ASOS due to Littlefinger's presence in them. Shes a build-up character, one that grows a lot and you'll eventually grow to love by the end. Its easier to do that when you read the series all at once, so newer readers like myself aren't as prone to disliking her as much.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 19, 2013)

I agree that she's meant to be hated in the sense that she is a very shallow, unlikeable person in the beginning.  But she grows so much as a person and I loved seeing that.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Apr 19, 2013)

Littlefinger is grooming her quite well

Early Sansa wanted to make me throw the book at a wall. Only her chapters and the book Mockingjay have ever had that effect on me.


----------



## Suigetsu (Apr 19, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> While it may not have started a love match, I got the impression that Cat and Ned did love each other. I don't hate Cat personally, shes not one of my top favorites but I looked forward to her chapters and thought she was quite well written. While her reaction to Jon was harsh, its understandable especially during the scene with Jon, Bran and Catelyn when Jon is leaving. We don't live in their time so its harder to understand a nobles feelings towards a bastard. It is a sign of dishonor to the house and the wife and more importantly, bastards have killed siblings to become heirs in the past.



I think that Ned wanted to Marry Ashara but was forced to Marry Cat for obvious reasons. Ned didn't love Cat at once but they grew close and loving with time.

Besides if you think about it "If John where Ashara's son" He would had not been a bastard had Ned's Brother not died. I mean Ned was forced to marry another woman instead of the one he loved but oh well...

Still Dayne's are the most badasses of Westeros, they are like the spartans of that universe.


----------



## God (Apr 20, 2013)

Yeah jon is eithe tge lovechild of rhaegar/lyanna or brandon/ashara
Or ned and wylla the wet nurse 

Could not stand balon greyjoy. So happy when he died. Euron and victarion remind me of renly and stannis. Theyre cooking something up but they have the power of victarion and mind of euron to even shit out, as opposed to balons stupidity.

Amirite? So u declare king of the iron isles, ur rebellion is crushed and ur son taken warden. Your enemy dies, his son is fighting with a war with house baratheon alongside him. He send tou back your son and offers you a crown. Durrr, im gonna go to war against him even though theres not much i can do to the north beaides shitty little coastal raids.

Fuckin retard, he deserved his death.

Or im just a starkman 

In the same sense, stannis was a fucking idiot when he killed renly. Renly had a massive army, a tyrell alliance and the peoples support. Furthermore, he understood how the game was played. He knew what cersei lannister was and his offer to seize the lannisters may in fact have spared tge realm the war. The people of kings landing would have welcomed renly. Stannis ensured the tyrells fight against his cause when melisandre slew him.

Both balon and stannis are fucking idiots.


Im interested in sansas story though. Marrying her to harry the heir secures the north.

Also waiting on howland reed.

Also aegon vi being a blackfyre would be terrific .


----------



## Suigetsu (Apr 20, 2013)

Cubey said:


> Yeah jon is eithe tge lovechild of rhaegar/lyanna or *brandon/ashara*



You mean Ned?
There is nothing that implies that Brandon and Ashara got together. Besides Brandon was never a womanizer, had he been then he would ve had bastards like Robert all over the realm.

I mean It looks like he talked Ashara into dancing with Ned which seemed to be very shy towards her.
Also Robert said to ned that he was no longer the boy that he was.

What I am trying to say is that Ned was not always the super honor always the right thing man. I mean he was young and wild once, and maybe he "dishonored" Ashara in the tournament. He planned to marry her but then things went apeshit.
She recieved news that Ned married another woman and maybe she miscarried their baby right then.
She lost her baby and her lover.
Then she receives the news that Ned killed her brother.

Goes into batshit melodrama and leaves this world.



> Im interested in sansas story though. Marrying her to harry the heir secures the north.



Harry? which Harry?


----------



## siyrean (Apr 20, 2013)

for Amrun


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Apr 20, 2013)

There is nothing idiotic about Stannis killing Renly. Renly wanted his crown, so he killed him. End of story. Stannis wasn't going to bow down to his little bitch of a brother.


----------



## God (Apr 20, 2013)

@suigetsu:


*Spoiler*: __ 



harry the only remaining descendant of house arryn besides robert




@wpk: he could have warred after the lannisters were out of the picture which would have been the smartest thing to do. No tywin to outdo him, the realm under peace, etc.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 20, 2013)

siyrean said:


> for Amrun





NaruHina, huh??

I don't think it's so one-sided, though.  She really respects him as a man and a knight, and even when she should hate him, she doesn't and there's this crazy tension between them that's nuts.  I don't think she understands it.

It's really contrasted when she marries Tyrion.  She can't look at his ruined face, but it's not so with Hound - she's fascinated by it.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Apr 20, 2013)

He didn't exactly have all the time in the world to wait. His sellswords wouldn't just wait around forever when he didn't have the gold to pay them and Melisandre said the time was right. Stannis got a raw deal and started off much worse than all the other candidates for the throne yet right now he is the only one still alive, that rather speaks for itself.


----------



## Suigetsu (Apr 20, 2013)

Cubey said:


> @suigetsu:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


That disgusting creature? its probably going to die. It should die.
Sansa should Marry AEGON or that Dayne Kid from the riverlands. You know, a badass character


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Apr 21, 2013)

Many readers have accused Cersei of being a poor spouse and parent, and I certainly can agree with that, but is it not safe to presume that Robert was no better that her? I do not believe that he ever displayed any love affection toward Cersei or her children, did he? I certainly am not attempting to justify Cersei's actions, but I do believe that she is not the only guilty party responsible for the tension and dysfunction in her family and the political turmoil that is engulfing much of Westeros. Does anyone else share my opinion on that matter?

Suigetsu: I do not know the "Dayne kid" of whom you speak, but Rhaegar is dead, so Sansa cannot marry him.


----------



## God (Apr 21, 2013)

Suigetsu said:


> That disgusting creature? its probably going to die. It should die.
> Sansa should Marry Raeghar or that Dayne Kid from the riverlands. You know, a badass character



Umm not exactly. Robert arryn is the sicckly, whiny, annoying little ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".). Harry is a strong young knight. I hope baelish succeeds in wedding the two.

How the fuck will she marry rhaegar 
And the dayne kid disappeared. He didnt belong to the nobility either.


----------



## Nic (Apr 21, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Many readers have accused Cersei of being a poor spouse and parent, and I certainly can agree with that, but is it not safe to presume that Robert was no better that her? I do not believe that he ever displayed any love affection toward Cersei or her children, did he? I certainly am not attempting to justify Cersei's actions, but I do believe that she is not the only guilty party responsible for the tension and dysfunction in her family and the political turmoil that is engulfing much of Westeros. Does anyone else share my opinion on that matter?
> 
> Suigetsu: I do not know the "Dayne kid" of whom you speak, but Rhaegar is dead, so Sansa cannot marry him.



well it was pointed out that he had no affection for Joffrey because of how he was.  I'm not sure about the two other kids.


----------



## Suigetsu (Apr 21, 2013)

Edric Dayne, you know... from that house of badasses. I mean how the fck he didnt belong to nobility? He is Lord Edric Dayne, and he will become the Lord of Starfall one day.
Most likely he went to take the remains of the Knight he was serving to its ancestral home. It's the least he could do, squire duty.

How old is this Harold Hardyng??


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Apr 21, 2013)

To continue the subject of poor parents, would anyone here agree that Tywin was also a poor parent, since all three of his children seemed to strongly dislike him? I certainly believe that.

Suigetsu: I believe that Harold Hardyng is in his early twenties, which makes him much older than Sansa, who is currently only thirteen or fourteen, but in medieval societies such as Wetseros, is not uncommon for people who are far apart in age to be married (Sansa's brief marriage to Tyrion is an excellent example of such a marriage).


----------



## hcheng02 (Apr 21, 2013)

Amrun said:


> There's also sorts of clues that he's not, in fact, dead.
> 
> Re: Cat, I fucking hate her, to be honest.
> 
> ...



I think the show's writers are aware of the massive fan hate for Cat in the books due to her behavior towards Jon, so they are making an effort to make her more likeable in the TV show. And I must say that they are doing to a pretty good job of it. That speech about Jon as a baby was honestly great. 

I also think that Sansa's Tv scene during the King's Landing riot was better than the books. What other scene's do you think are good or better in the TV series?


----------



## Suigetsu (Apr 21, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> To continue the subject of poor parents, would anyone here agree that Tywin was also a poor parent, since all three of his children seemed to strongly dislike him? I certainly believe that.
> 
> Suigetsu: I believe that Harold Hardyng is in his early twenties, which makes him much older than Sansa, who is currently only thirteen or fourteen, but in medieval societies such as Wetseros, is not uncommon for people who are far apart in age to be married (Sansa's brief marriage to Tyrion is an excellent example of such a marriage).



yes yes I know how it works. Anyways I always thought that Sansa was like 16 years old or something.
Everyone that has gone after her is a fucking Pedo.

And dont give me shit of "that is how it was in medieval times" every fucking human being in westeros is a piece of shit.


----------



## Fierce (Apr 21, 2013)

That speech about Jon in the show was nothing short of awful and a terrible deviation of Catelyn's character and the culture of Westeros.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Apr 21, 2013)

Suigetsu said:


> And dont give me shit of "that is how it was in medieval times" every fucking human being in westeros is a piece of shit.



I was not attempting to make any excuses for any of the behavior of any of the characters in this series; regardless of whether or not the setting of this story is a medieval one,



Fierce said:


> That speech about Jon in the show was nothing short of awful and a terrible deviation of Catelyn's character and the culture of Westeros.



Why was it a deviation from Catelyn's character? Is her dislike of Jon a major aspect of her character and personality? And how is it a deviation from the culture of Westeros? Not everyone in Westeros believes that children born out of wedlock and inferior and subhuman, such as the Free Folk/Wildlings or the people of Dorne (Oberyn's numerous illegitimate daughters, the Sand Snakes, seemed to be treated the same as the legitimate Martell children, such as Arianne), so I believe that that is not a major deviation, in that case.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 21, 2013)

hcheng02 said:


> I think the show's writers are aware of the massive fan hate for Cat in the books due to her behavior towards Jon, so they are making an effort to make her more likeable in the TV show. And I must say that they are doing to a pretty good job of it. That speech about Jon as a baby was honestly great.
> 
> I also think that Sansa's Tv scene during the King's Landing riot was better than the books. What other scene's do you think are good or better in the TV series?




I loved Pod's scene with the whores even though it was just fanservice.

In general, Margery's character is far more fleshed out in the series, and in a good way that I think is consistent to the books.

There are lots of others that occur to me as a I watch it, but one I remember specifically happened last season between Littlefinger/Cersei.


----------



## Suigetsu (Apr 21, 2013)

Amrun said:


> I loved Pod's scene with the whores even though it was just fanservice.
> 
> In general, Margery's character is far more fleshed out in the series, and in a good way that I think is consistent to the books.
> 
> There are lots of others that occur to me as a I watch it, but one I remember specifically happened last season between Littlefinger/Cersei.



The whores from season 1 are the best looking.


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## Fierce (Apr 21, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Why was it a deviation from Catelyn's character? Is her dislike of Jon a major aspect of her character and personality? And how is it a deviation from the culture of Westeros? Not everyone in Westeros believes that children born out of wedlock and inferior and subhuman, such as the Free Folk/Wildlings or the people of Dorne (Oberyn's numerous illegitimate daughters, the Sand Snakes, seemed to be treated the same as the legitimate Martell children, such as Arianne), so I believe that that is not a major deviation, in that case.



Honestly, I read this earlier, and didn't feel like writing a detailed response. Now I'm reading it again, and I still don't feel like it. How anyone who has read the books needs me to answer those questions is beyond me. I'm not trying to be rude, but it's pretty obvious from the books how much Cat loathed Jon, and why it's normal and understandable for her to feel the way she does, given the culture of Westeros (disregarding Dorne, who is the only exception on the continent).


----------



## siyrean (Apr 22, 2013)

Just had to come here to say, I FUCKING HATE ROS!

god damn marysue's need to stay in fanfic.


----------



## Megaharrison (Apr 22, 2013)

The good thing about Ros is she's probably going to serve Dontos' role in the series


*Spoiler*: __ 



i.e. bringing Sansa to the docks after Joffrey's death to meet Littlefinger, only to be killed by Baelish' men to tie up loose ends


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Apr 22, 2013)

I haven't watched the show in detail, so I was wondering who this Ros person was. I've seen her before in the show, just didn't pay attention enough to know thats her name. She replaces Dontos? Thats somewhat of a shame, Dontos was fairly amusing.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 22, 2013)

They could still put Dontos in.  We just haven't seen any hint that he exists yet.

Ros would serve just fine, but she's a pretty useless character.  I had no idea what her name was until reading this.


----------



## Nic (Apr 22, 2013)

hmm wasn't Dontos speaking to her in episode 1 about escaping?


----------



## Nic (Apr 22, 2013)

Amrun said:


> They could still put Dontos in.  We just haven't seen any hint that he exists yet.
> 
> Ros would serve just fine, but she's a pretty useless character.  I had no idea what her name was until reading this.



Dontos is the guy that Joffrey almost drowns by having him drink all that wine.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 22, 2013)

Oh, yeah, I guess you're right.  I forgot.


----------



## Shrike (Apr 22, 2013)

Whenever Shae or that other northern whore Ros show up on the screen I have a GARGANTUAN urge to kick the monitor and break it as much as possible. I don't think there has been anything on any show ever that irritates me as much as those do. They are probably riding producers' dicks, it has to be, because they are such horrible actresses and one doesn't even exist in the fucking books. Can't find any other explanation seeing as how they have such a good cast.

Well, True Blood made me want to punch the screen too. And Spartacus. And Janice from The Sopranos. And Acaveda from The Shield. But these two hookers are simply blood boiling.

I realize I have a problem with anger, thanks.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 22, 2013)

Idk, not sure about Shae's acting abilities.  Jury is still out.  Right now I think she's not so good... Idk.

Ros, I think, is a fairly decent actress but her role itself is stupid.

Also WTF are they doing with Shae?  Like I remember they attributed some things to her that Tyrion's wife actually had, which is really fucking weird because the distinction between them is super important.

Are they going to turn her like in the books?  If not, how the fuck does THAT work?


----------



## God (Apr 22, 2013)

FUCK I SHOULD WATCH THE NEW EPISODE B4 U HOMOS SPOIL ME FOR GOOD 

On an unrelated note


*Spoiler*: __ 



so it would appear osha is in skagos with rickon

Manderly sent davos to parley with them. Hmm. Robb may have died but the wildest wolf lives. I bet manderly will mold rickon into the sirviving stark king. Remember that even if the bolton letter is real and mance/stannis are caught/killed, the boltons and freys still need justice delivered. Rickon will be the wolf behind which the north rallies and reclaims the north and riverlands. Guaranteed. Hope he kills off cersei as well 

Im also really interested in theons story. For a while there i thought he would be ramsays rape toy forever, but then he does remember the young prince theon. He remembers who he is so thats a start. With euron and victarion around, him reclaiming his ironborn heritage... Uh yeah no. But he might be able to assist rickon in his upheaval  or another redemption would be to help daenarys when victarion solos her dragons.

The aegon = blackfyre theory is actually not that bad, i think its 50/50 on that one.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 22, 2013)

I'm not so sure about your Rickon theory, though it's interesting.  I think we're supposed to get the idea that Rickon is a loose cannon and even has the potential to turn dark/insane, which is reflected by his wolf.

I'm quite curious to see how Rickon develops.  (Theon, too -- he clearly has an important role to play in the upcoming book.)


----------



## Fierce (Apr 22, 2013)

Cubey said:


> FUCK I SHOULD WATCH THE NEW EPISODE B4 U HOMOS SPOIL ME FOR GOOD
> 
> On an unrelated note
> 
> ...


You've read all the books but are worried about someone spoiling an episode of the show? ...


----------



## Amrun (Apr 22, 2013)

Listen, if someone had spoiled Podrick the Cuntslayer to me, I'd have been pissed.


----------



## God (Apr 22, 2013)

The show abd books are two separate pleasures, thank you very much


----------



## Fierce (Apr 22, 2013)

One is pleasure. One is a headache.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Apr 23, 2013)

I would think it hard for an avid lover of the books to love the show as well, as the strongest point of the books is the characters and a show can't really hope to match the level of characterization in most books in general, let alone that found in ASoIaF. Especially since a good deal of POV characters have mostly internal dialogue filling their chapters, like Davos and its not really possible to adequately portray that in a show. Cressen in the show is completely forgettable whereas his one POV chapter, the prologue of ACoK, is one of the best chapters in the entire series.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 23, 2013)

They're different experiences, but the show tries really hard to do complex characterizations, so I think that's a bit unfair.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Apr 23, 2013)

The shows strongest point is that it fleshes out the non-POV characters better at times then the books do, like Margeary, Joffrey and Cersei(as she didn't become a POV until AFFC). Though it also sometimes removes stuff from characters that ruin them a bit(like with Cat and dampening her dislike of Jon) or changes something about them. I can't really remember what it was that did it but I remember disliking show Jon whereas book Jon was a top 5 favorite for awhile and is still a character I enjoy.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 23, 2013)

I don't think the show dampens Cat's dislike of Jon at all.  I think it just shows her thoughts on it more fully.  Like, even after she made the promise to the gods, she still couldn't love him.

And also...


----------



## God (Apr 23, 2013)

Well the two mediums are approached for different purposes. When watching the show, you know it wont be possible to match the literature's narrative, so you dont necessarily look for exquisite characterization and monologues. By holding impossible expectations for the show, you're setting yourself up to hate it. Take it for what it is, a fantasy series about war, kings and the supernatural. Nothing more, nothing less.

Stannis is an awful leader btw


----------



## Amrun (Apr 23, 2013)

Yeah, it's literally impossible to tell the story via tv how the book told it -- and by extension, it's impossible for the books to tell it like tv can!

Both have high points and low points, things for fans to appreciate.  Don't expect the television show to be the books because it never will be.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Apr 23, 2013)

The main scene that shows her dislike of him, the scene when Jon is about to leave for the Night's Watch and hes saying goodbye to Bran, is significantly changed in the show and shes not nearly as harsh to him. There is one specifically harsh line that isn't included from the book, would look it up but AGoT is the only one of the books that I don't own.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 23, 2013)

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that.

But it's not the same thing, is what I'm trying to say.  Different medium, different method of storytelling.

(I didn't like that particular change, though.)


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Apr 23, 2013)

I'm aware of the limitations of television. I'm not saying the show is bad or not enjoyable, it is enjoyable but through no fault of its own it can't really live up to the books and those who have read the books can't really help but miss the elements that the show is lacking in.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 23, 2013)

What I am trying to say is that the book is also lacking in things the show is strong on.

Watch that vid I posted, for real.


----------



## Fierce (Apr 23, 2013)

She tells Jon it should have been him when he comes to visit Bran. Doesn't happen in the show.

Show can't be an exact replica of the books, but they don't even try. Awful adaptation, and I consider it mediocre TV at best, if I do my absolute best to forget the books (which I can't)


----------



## God (Apr 23, 2013)

Some changes are good, some bad. Frankly i'd rather there be differences in their storytelling than simply watch a reiteration of shit i've already read. The show is missing alot of pieces yes, but thats really not a reason to hate it.

I dont understand how being a fan of the books means you cant like the series. It doesnt make any connection to me, tbqh.


----------



## Megaharrison (Apr 23, 2013)

People bashing the TV show? Heresy. I love both adaptations and understand the strengths/weaknesses of both.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Apr 23, 2013)

To get a more direct translation from books to television, a series of chef/cook characters would be needed to describe all of the meals as they're served and eaten.


----------



## Fierce (Apr 23, 2013)

Cubey said:


> Some changes are good, some bad. Frankly i'd rather there be differences in their storytelling than simply watch a reiteration of shit i've already read. The show is missing alot of pieces yes, but thats really not a reason to hate it.
> 
> I dont understand how being a fan of the books means you cant like the series. It doesnt make any connection to me, tbqh.



Where did I say I like the books, therefore I don't like the show? What I said was, the show is an awful adaptation, and on its own merits, it's not that good to me. Full of cliches and a number of less than stellar actors.

I hear all the time that people like the changes and don't want to see exactly what they've already read, but I'm not like that at all. I want to see, as close as possible, what I read (given how outstanding it is). I want to see my imagination brought to life, or close enough to my imagination. This show just shits on the entire atmosphere of the books.


----------



## Torpedo Titz (Apr 23, 2013)

I find it depends on how the adaptation should function for you individually. Either your imagination visually brought to life by actors, CGI, accompanying music for attenuation of scenes and the like. Or, a fresh perspective of source material from within a different medium.

Honestly, it's just _too_ easy to hate adaptations. Even if this one was utterly puerile (which it's not), I wouldn't even denounce it. Why? Wasted effort. I'd blot it from my memory and snuggle up with my hardbacks. Taking a fresh look at something you love is more difficult than resigning yourself to an elitist perspective -- the latter of which is the modus operandi for a lot of forums. I readily complained about Melisandre's casting and Jon's rather lacklustre portrayal in 2011, but right now I've adopted a more positive attitude towards the likes of _innovation_ and _creativity_. I like action!Stannis and portrayals such as Tywin who feels a little more humane, or Robert who wasn't always a bitter drunken clown. They exercise my brain in different ways.

Seeing new fans choose the TV show over the books is agonising because _we_ know how glorious and dark Martin's journey is, but, really, would those people ever read Martin's work regardless of the show? No. And a good deal of people _will_ be inspired to embrace it.

The show's content is a mixed bag -- generally eh to me, but the show's existence is wondrous, even if relegated to mere advertisement which can only procure superficial appreciation. Like action!Stannis storming battlements.



Fierce said:


> This show just shits on the entire atmosphere of the books.



I agree, it fails to replicate a lot of my feels. Not that it'll stop me from enjoying action!Stannis in all his battlement-storming glory. 

Tbh, I feel this falls under the umbrella of a much broader debate pertaining to instant gratification versus deeper and mature appreciation in today's entertainment industry.


----------



## God (Apr 23, 2013)

Fierce said:


> Where did I say I like the books, therefore I don't like the show? What I said was, the show is an awful adaptation, and on its own merits, it's not that good to me. Full of cliches and a number of less than stellar actors.
> 
> I hear all the time that people like the changes and don't want to see exactly what they've already read, but I'm not like that at all. I want to see, as close as possible, what I read (given how outstanding it is). I want to see my imagination brought to life, or close enough to my imagination. This show just shits on the entire atmosphere of the books.



The show is full of cliches because its hbo's primetime spot. Honestly what were you expecting? This was never going to be a strict following of the source material.

Viewed independently, the show is good. As an adaptation, yes it doesnt match the books. Why are you repeating things we all already know. I've read the books, therefore my expectations are fulfilled. Anything the show lacks doesnt affect the novels. It takes nothing AWAY and fans watch it as extra.

You claim the show is awful, a headache, blasphemous, etc. - an absolutely ridiculous stance imo as the acting is great, the fundamentals are covered and most importantly it is a gateway for a younger audience to pick up the novels.


----------



## Fierce (Apr 23, 2013)

Cubey said:


> The show is full of cliches because its hbo's primetime spot. Honestly what were you expecting? This was never going to be a strict following of the source material.
> 
> Viewed independently, the show is good. As an adaptation, yes it doesnt match the books. Why are you repeating things we all already know. I've read the books, therefore my expectations are fulfilled. Anything the show lacks doesnt affect the novels. It takes nothing AWAY and fans watch it as extra.
> 
> You claim the show is awful, a headache, blasphemous, etc. - an absolutely ridiculous stance imo as the acting is great, the fundamentals are covered and most importantly it is a gateway for a younger audience to pick up the novels.



I wasn't aware the only time someone could make a statement was if the people being addressed weren't already aware of the information.

What was I expecting from an incredibly deep series adaptation on HBO, a network with shows like The Sopranos and The Wire on its resume? Being done by people GRRM said convinced him they would do a good job? A show that strove to be great. Not the cliff notes version of the source material, stuffed full of stuff that's only purpose is to steal the True Blood fan base. How the show is viewed independently of the books is subjective, like most things. Obviously it has a large following, but I'd call that the product of (despite their best efforts to destroy it) the source material being so outstanding. Honestly, one of the things that bothers me most is that, while the show will ultimately lead more people to reading the books, they're going to watch the show first, and ruin the books for themselves. So things that have so much more of an impact when fleshed out as GRRM wrote it, will carry little to no weight when being read after the fact.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 23, 2013)

George R.R. Martin loves the show, for the record.  He's going to expand Osha (I think that's her name)'s role in future books because her actress is so fantastic that she inspires him.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 23, 2013)

A conversation from another thread.  Any of you have thoughts?



Amrun said:


> ^someone got prosecuted for loli recently, actually.
> 
> ALSO
> 
> ...





Krory said:


> I can't discuss mine.
> 
> Because it's ending next episode.
> 
> I just can't...





Amrun said:


> I thought you were talking about AryaXGendry?





Krory said:


> I am.





Amrun said:


> I still have hope for AryaXGendry.
> 
> It's not like Gendry can continue to go unnoticed, given what he is.  He's going to be important, eventually.
> 
> ...





Krory said:


> I really hope that's the case, Amrun. I really do. That would make everything worthwhile.





Amrun said:


> I really do think Gendry's going to be important.
> 
> Why?  Because he is a piece to the puzzle that the author made sure that  the reader knows who he is, and then stopped talking about it  altogether.
> 
> ...


----------



## God (Apr 23, 2013)

Gendry will reforge ice from ww and oathkeeper for rickons rebellion or jon snow. It is known.

Aegon is actually the last surviving blackfyre, in possession of blackfyre, which he will hand to jon snow. It is known.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 23, 2013)

Eh, that COULD happen, but I think his status as bastard is more important.  Not a coincidence that all the other bastards were killed because they would become a huge problem... except him.


----------



## God (Apr 24, 2013)

Indeed. You seem to be implying he is likely to end up on either the iron throne or storms end as roberts heir...


----------



## Amrun (Apr 24, 2013)

Well, I personally think so, though there's not enough evidence to state anything conclusively.

I just think that he's been so downplayed because he's going to be a surprise piece that upsets the whole board.

AFTER Aegon does, though.  I think it will be a last minute sort of thing.


----------



## God (Apr 24, 2013)

Theres plenty of surprise pieces left 

But yes i agree that is the most likely option for gendry since stannis appears not long for this world (if hes alive in the first place)

Except the problem of having to prove he is who he is and who will back his claim to anything, assuming he even wants to claim anything.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 24, 2013)

I don't think it will be him going "i want to be a lord"

He obviously DOESN'T, in fact.

I think someone will discover it and force him to face it.  (Arya knows, so there's that.)


----------



## God (Apr 24, 2013)

Arya, who abandoned her own high-born heritage to become an assassin is about the same as gendry abandoning his heirship to become a blacksmith.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 24, 2013)

Not meaning to imply she'd do it on purpose, of course.  I'm just saying, she has that knowledge and could let it slip (and I'm sure she's not the only one that knows / could find out).


----------



## siyrean (Apr 24, 2013)

Gendry looks like Robert and Arya looks like Lyanna. Clearly the two will get married and rule over Storms End, the way their family initially intended. 

Or at least they would if it was any other author writing them. Right now I'll be happy to see Arya alive at the end.

tv spoiler 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Probably going to flip a table is Melisandra takes him as a replacement for Edric Storm.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 24, 2013)

Dude

I'm so confused by that.

I was like, "Why did you write him out of the show?  Isn't he like ... important?" 

My bf says there's still room to introduce Edric later, but then it will be lame.

I have never understood when book adaptations do this.  Harry Potter is a terrible adaptation, but the most grievous example is when they completely wrote the mirror out and then several movies later, he just pulled the mirror out with no explanation.  The mirror was an extremely important thing even though it SEEMED trivial, and sometimes I just have to wonder...  Do the directors actually read the series, in cases like these?


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Apr 24, 2013)

siyrean said:


> tv spoiler
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...




How in the seven hells did the TV show even set up a situation in which this is possible? Melisandre at no point in time is anywhere near Gendry, nor are Stannis's men. Do they even think about the possible consequences of their actions by changing something like that?

Speaking of which, I have never seen plus have heard that the Tower of Joy scene was skipped over in the show. They could always add it later but thats pretty damn sloppy. Especially since TV show only watchers get to miss out on the awesome that is Ser Arthur Dayne.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Apr 24, 2013)

I think siyrean meant that as a book-based theory which could spoil those watching the tv show. Why they would be in this thread, I'm not entirely sure.

As for the Tower of Joy, if Ned's dream was the only chance of seeing it, I think Martin would have stepped in. Howland Reed is the only other survivor **, and Bran may be given a chance to "see" that night.


----------



## God (Apr 24, 2013)

Indeed.

The readers themselves have never been shown the fight at the tower of joy. Right call on their part.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 24, 2013)

Random Question: Could Wights even reach areas where it's not cold?
I don't see most of the Tyrell- and especially not Dorne domain getting cold enough even during a harsh winter, and if that hand in King's landing was any indicator, undead flesh rots quite fast in warmer temperatures.


----------



## Torpedo Titz (Apr 24, 2013)

Amrun said:


> He's going to expand Osha (I think that's her name)'s role in future books because her actress is so fantastic that she inspires him.



But it was quite clear she'd play a key role in the Rickon/Skaagos storyline to begin with.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Apr 24, 2013)

Zaru said:


> Random Question: Could Wights even reach areas where it's not cold?
> I don't see most of the Tyrell- and especially not Dorne domain getting cold enough even during a harsh winter, and if that hand in King's landing was any indicator, undead flesh rots quite fast in warmer temperatures.


Does the cold bring the Others or do they bring the cold? 
Bugger the wights.


----------



## Nic (Apr 24, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> How in the seven hells did the TV show even set up a situation in which this is possible? Melisandre at no point in time is anywhere near Gendry, nor are Stannis's men. Do they even think about the possible consequences of their actions by changing something like that?
> 
> Speaking of which, I have never seen plus have heard that the Tower of Joy scene was skipped over in the show. They could always add it later but thats pretty damn sloppy. Especially since TV show only watchers get to miss out on the awesome that is Ser Arthur Dayne.



It's not sloppy at all.  A visual representation of that scene would be very hard to make without causing huge spoilers down the line for the books.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Apr 24, 2013)

Nic said:


> It's not sloppy at all.  A visual representation of that scene would be very hard to make without causing huge spoilers down the line for the books.


Not really. It is a dream sequence after all, so you could have it fade out during the part with Lyanna while hearing her say "Promise me, Ned.".


----------



## Nic (Apr 24, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Not really. It is a dream sequence after all, so you could have it fade out during the part with Lyanna while hearing her say "Promise me, Ned.".



yes and not do the scene justice at this point.  There's a reason they are recasting Ned later.


----------



## Suigetsu (Apr 24, 2013)

so the wight's, cold ones are actually Zombies.

A Cold zombie apocalypse in a medieval world full of assholes, pricks and horrible human beings. 

It doesnt sound too bad.


----------



## Amrun (Apr 25, 2013)

Zaru said:


> Random Question: Could Wights even reach areas where it's not cold?
> I don't see most of the Tyrell- and especially not Dorne domain getting cold enough even during a harsh winter, and if that hand in King's landing was any indicator, undead flesh rots quite fast in warmer temperatures.



Others can always make more Wights when the first decompose. I had the impression that the Wall was there as a barrier to the cold, because the cold is not just a natural phenomona in this world.



Jon Stark said:


> But it was quite clear she'd play a key role in the Rickon/Skaagos storyline to begin with.



Yes, but the point I was making is that whining about how the shows are such terrible adaptations is silly when the author himself disagrees.



Dragonus Nesha said:


> Does the cold bring the Others or do they bring the cold?
> Bugger the wights.



That's what I always thought.


----------



## Nic (Apr 25, 2013)

The tv show isn't a terrible adaptation.  I've seen adaptations that look like crap in comparison to this.  One popular example is Harry Potter.  Don't forget the producers can't cast every single character in the book due to the budgetary concerns.  Besides making it the exact copy of the books makes it a more boring adaptation in my mind.  As long as they keep to the main story-lines which they are, i have no problems with their tweaks here an there.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Apr 25, 2013)

Well the author that is making money from said show and is somewhat involved in its direction is a bit biased towards praising it then criticizing it. Phillip Pullman, author of the His Dark Materials trilogy, somewhat praised and defended the movie adaptation of the Northern Lights(the Golden Compass in the US) despite it being a complete slap in the face to the main theme of the series. It may be forced praise but you get the point. Not saying that GRRM secretly hates it or should hate it, just that saying an adaptation can't be terrible because the original creator doesn't think its terrible isn't really a valid argument, for the point already presented and also that the authors opinion isn't the end all be all, since his reasons for liking the show adaptation may not apply to others. His perspective as an author is also different than ours the reader.


----------



## Nic (Apr 25, 2013)

Actually GRMM has expressed some disappointment with the adaptation.  Notably the lack of the Tower of Joy scene you mentioned earlier.


----------



## Fierce (Apr 25, 2013)

I've seen/read a number of GRRM interviews where he's said (paraphrasing) they do a good enough job with the show, but he understands (and "loves") the die hard fans who find themselves criticizing it. And he hasn't been without some nitpicks himself.


----------



## God (Apr 25, 2013)

Some nitpicks and criticism is hardly the same as calling he show an awful headache thats trying its best to destroy the source material.

Which are your own words, and have nothing within them other than (seemingly) elitist feels.

Disappointment is understandable, outright hate for the show for changing 1% of the story isnt.


----------



## Fierce (Apr 25, 2013)

1%. Hahahahahahaha

.....hahahahahaha


----------



## Suigetsu (Apr 25, 2013)

Maybe the Tower of joy could be done later on? You know with Howland Reed? heck I for one would love to see a movie about the entire Harrenhal, roberts rebelion, tower of joy and finally Starfall.


----------



## crazymtf (Apr 28, 2013)

So any news on book 6 or another 10 year wait?


----------



## Face (Apr 28, 2013)

They would have to hire alot of people to play all the characters in the books.

It would be awesome though if they could show some of the major events like Roberts Rebellion or Aegon's Landing, Rhaegar and Lyanna's story intrigues me the most.


----------



## siyrean (Apr 30, 2013)

Just got back from the first ever Song of Ice and Fire convention in North America. We've seriously got some of the best fans out there.


----------



## Suigetsu (Apr 30, 2013)

Glad u folks had a good time.
Was Georgie there?


----------



## siyrean (May 1, 2013)

no but the organizers were in contact with him. he needs to be booked like 2 years in advance for cons, so maybe 2015 :33


----------



## Amrun (May 1, 2013)

Oooh looks fun.


----------



## Suigetsu (May 2, 2013)

siyrean said:


> no but the organizers were in contact with him. he needs to be booked like 2 years in advance for cons, so maybe 2015 :33



Well... start booking him at once then lollol.


----------



## Fiona (May 6, 2013)

Fierce said:


> 1%. Hahahahahahaha
> 
> .....hahahahahaha



Is it more than 1%? Oh yeah. 

Are the changes drastic and betray the feel and spirit of the story? Of course not. 

The changes that have been made have been made for varying reasons. Whether budgetary or to lighten the character load to make it more accessible the mainstream audiences. 

I still believe that the show and the actors/actresses invloved (for the most part) do the story and their characters justice. 

Any show based off a book will have changes made and people wont like some changes. Its the nature of television. That isn't reason to not enjoy the show objectively. As long as the show remains close to the spirit and feel of the original story thats all any fan can truly ask or expect.


----------



## Fierce (May 6, 2013)

Fiona said:


> Is it more than 1%? Oh yeah.
> 
> Are the changes drastic and betray the feel and spirit of the story? Of course not.
> 
> ...



If you think the show "feels" the same as the books, you have a significantly different comprehension of the text than I do.


----------



## Fiona (May 7, 2013)

Fierce said:


> If you think the show "feels" the same as the books, you have a significantly different comprehension of the text than I do.



I like to think of it as having a more positive outlook and lack of a pessimistic attitude


----------



## Fierce (May 7, 2013)

Thinking the show carries the same undertones as the books isn't indicative of optimism. It's indicative of poor reading comprehension.


----------



## Fiona (May 7, 2013)

Fierce said:


> Thinking the show carries the same undertones as the books isn't indicative of optimism. It's indicative of poor reading comprehension.



Whatever makes you feel superior man 

I think they encompass the feel and tone of the books quite well. Im sorry you dont feel the same.


----------



## Fierce (May 7, 2013)

The fact that you think I said that because I want to feel superior suggests you're the one with the superiority complex.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (May 7, 2013)

How about instead of single sentence stabs at each other, we take time to elaborate on what we mean?

Fierce, what do you see is missing from the TV show that takes away the feel of the book? Go ahead and be as specific as possible. No post is too long.


----------



## Nic (May 7, 2013)

personally, i like the adaptation just fine as it is.  I would find a show that adapts eveything in a series would make it rather stale, and i prefer still having my own imagination seperate from the show anyways. Besides i'm liking seeing some characters being fleshed out more by the series, such as the Queen of Thorns.  For the most part i'm extremely happy with the adaptation.  The only thing i might have wished for, was seeing Arya and Bolton's interaction.  I'm really loving the shows portrayal of LF though.


----------



## Shrike (May 7, 2013)

I am an avid fan of the books, but what the hell, the TV show is okay. What do you expect? I haven't see ANY book adaptation in my whole life that is worth the book. The Godfather, the movie so many people call their favorite movie ever, is shit compared to the book it came from. I mean, common.

The series is fine. Not what I'd call excellent, but it's good for the resources they have. What did you expect, to show EVERY character that appears in the books and make everything like in the books? This is a different media. It HAS to be a lot different. Deal with it or just keep to the books.


----------



## Megaharrison (May 7, 2013)

The TV show is fine, and the new content is more or less adding to the story instead of detracting. The only original content issues have been Ros (and thats been wrapped up...) and dragging out Theon's torture with Ramsay.

Some show decisions I agree with over book decisions, such as replacing Edric Storm with Gendry. It puts a more established character you've come to sympathize with into Edric's plight, making his situation more dramatic. And the meeting between Beric/Thoros/Arya and Melisandre was a nice touch. I wish GRRM had included those.


----------



## Suigetsu (May 8, 2013)

No Edric Dayne in the show, sniff sniff...


----------



## Amrun (May 8, 2013)

Fierce said:


> Thinking the show carries the same undertones as the books isn't indicative of optimism. It's indicative of poor reading comprehension.





Fierce said:


> The fact that you think I said that because I want to feel superior suggests you're the one with the superiority complex.



"My reading comprehension is better than yours."

"I WASN'T BEING SUPERIOR NEENER NEENER NEENER"

You're an idiot.



Spike_Shrike said:


> I am an avid fan of the books, but what the hell, the TV show is okay. What do you expect? I haven't see ANY book adaptation in my whole life that is worth the book. The Godfather, the movie so many people call their favorite movie ever, is shit compared to the book it came from. I mean, common.
> 
> The series is fine. Not what I'd call excellent, but it's good for the resources they have. What did you expect, to show EVERY character that appears in the books and make everything like in the books? This is a different media. It HAS to be a lot different. Deal with it or just keep to the books.



I just want to comment that as a humongo, tard-level fan of LOTR since I was a small child, I think the movies did EXCELLENT at adapting the source material.  I went to the first movie begrudgingly, expecting to leave with tard rage.  I was sooooooooo happily surprised.


----------



## Fierce (May 8, 2013)

Amrun said:


> "My reading comprehension is better than yours."
> 
> "I WASN'T BEING SUPERIOR NEENER NEENER NEENER"
> 
> You're an idiot.



And yours is as bad as hers, apparently.



Dragonus Nesha said:


> Fierce, what do you see is missing from the TV show that takes away the feel of the book? Go ahead and be as specific as possible. No post is too long.



The long answer would require reliving the atrocities the show has committed the last 2 and a half years, so let me see if I can paraphrase.

It's omitted, almost entirely, the prophetic elements of the story. Where it has kept any, it's been made up, nonsensical, irrelevant garbage. I'd argue that these are the most interesting parts of the story. I acknowledge not everything can translate to the screen without being too obvious, but that's not a reason to ignore that aspect of the series entirely. Not quite as important to the story, but changes how you perceive or understand the world (and "feel" when following the story), they've left out most of the history of the series. They didn't cast interesting characters, casted them too late so they had to change their storylines (and they've been inferior, every time), or rewritten them in watered down, cliche ways. That so many cliches exist in the show, in a series that largely strives to avoid such cliches, is unbelievable. Spew what arguments you want about how or why these things can't or shouldn't exist in the show, but don't try and force feed me in the same argument that the show "feels the same" as the books.


----------



## Amrun (May 8, 2013)

No, my point is that you called her reading comprehension bad and then pretended you weren't trying to insult her or act "superior," which is the very definition of what you were doing.


----------



## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (May 8, 2013)

@Fierce 

About the prophetic elements i have to say that i found them to be depicted  purposely marginally even into the books. They are kept unseen on the background of the story and the reader is free to construe them into his own interpretation. The show is trying to keep things simple, to be accessible to the majority of the viewers, they cant risk to do a mess with excessive symbolism (like the movie Cloud Atlas has done). 
 Prophecies will be surely important in the future, but they are supposed to bloom slowly through the story.
I dont see the prophecy references to have been treated like "nonsensical, irrelevant garbage", it depends from what point of view you are seing them.  The tv series has already showed the marked differences between the  believers and the godless. So it fits that some cynical characters (the majority of the cast) regard these signs as worthless while on the other hand people like Daenarys are fiercely trusting in them. 

About the cast, i have to say that i find the characterization to be the most developed aspect of the show. They are doing things nicely and imho most of the characters are fleshing out better than in the books. Some scenes and interactions have been depicted exactly how i imagined them to be. Others are even improving the story, for example the last add-on between Melisandre/Beric/Thoros and Arya has been a risky choice for further developments, but it has added spice to the misteries and has hyped Arya's future. 

The only thing that i find avoidable is the whore fanservice, they should spend the time with fillers about world building or characters background but i can understand HBO necessities.

Anyway GRRM is executive producer, so if he is happy about this adaptation we have only to trust him.


----------



## Fierce (May 8, 2013)

Amrun said:


> No, my point is that you called her reading comprehension bad and then pretended you weren't trying to insult her or act "superior," which is the very definition of what you were doing.



Yes, I know what your "point" was. It was wrong.



Bubi said:


> @Fierce
> Anyway GRRM is executive producer, so if he is happy about this adaptation we have only to trust him.



A couple things. First, executive producer is an honorary title. GRRM has no sway whatsoever in the direction of the show. He's contractually obligated to write one script per season, that is subject to whatever edification D&D choose to implement. That is his only great contribution to the show, disregarding the source material (as D&D do). He signed away the right to nitpick for a hefty sum of money. Which is also the same reason he'll obviously praise the show in public. He's not going to sit there and call it shit while promoting it on the red carpet. But, from someone who has professed to hate fan fiction, you have to figure he's less than fond of a number of things they've done to the story.

Second, this is the second time in two days I've heard this, and I've heard it countless times before pertaining to other works. Just because (whether it's true or not) GRRM is happy with it, doesn't mean I have to be. I am free thinking individual, with my own opinions. How someone (no matter how "influential" they may be) else feels about something has no bearing on how I will feel about it. George himself has said he'll understand why some of the hardcore book fans will be upset watching the show, and that he appreciates their devotion to his work, etc. Not word-for-word, but the gist of his meaning.


----------



## Shrike (May 8, 2013)

What you are saying is that you wouldn't be satisfied with an adaptation no matter what it is. Because there will always be different things in a TV show/movie - even tiny bullshit like - in your imagination, characters look different, so because they didn't do them justice on the looks, it will suck. I could write an essay on what I dislike about the show, and it's still fine because those complains come from my knowledge of the books.

You obviously don't know what it means to be limited by a budget and deadlines - things that a writer isn't limited by (if you have at least written one or two books, you needn't worry about a publisher, and we all know that George was already published before aSoIaF).

Prophetic and historical scenes were omitted because they would consume too much time and money. I don't like it, heck I hate it, but it is the world of television.

As I said, with this taken into consideration, you won't like any attempt at an adaptation. So keep to the book, what can I say. I view them very separately and rate them VERY separately.

Just curious, what are the cliches that are so much installed into the series as you say? I just need to know this.


----------



## Fierce (May 8, 2013)

Spike_Shrike said:


> What you are saying is that you wouldn't be satisfied with an adaptation no matter what it is. Because there will always be different things in a TV show/movie - even tiny bullshit like - in your imagination, characters look different, so because they didn't do them justice on the looks, it will suck. I could write an essay on what I dislike about the show, and it's still fine because those complains come from my knowledge of the books.
> 
> You obviously don't know what it means to be limited by a budget and deadlines - things that a writer isn't limited by (if you have at least written one or two books, you needn't worry about a publisher, and we all know that George was already published before aSoIaF).
> 
> ...



1. I love the LotR trilogy, unconditionally. I liked The Hobbit part 1 well enough, too. There goes your theory and half of your pointless rant.

2. Actually yes, there are some characters that don't look right, relative to my imagination/their descriptions in the books. Some of them were so far off that it bothered me in season 1. As time went on, I learned that I'd be okay with the physical aspect being off if they actually played their respective characters well. Most of them don't. With that being said, I love how you went off on a tangent over something I didn't even bring up.

3. I answered the question about why it's a _fact_, not a matter of opinion, that there's a significantly different feeling when watching the show than when reading the books. Instead of presenting an argument, you ignored that and told me I don't understand adaptations. Good work.

As for cliches, I could probably pick them out of 75% of the scenes, and 100% of the scenes that don't exist in the books, if I cared to go back through every episode, which I would never put myself through. I really don't care enough to list a bunch, but here's an easy one. Everything about Talisa from Volantis and her relationship with Robb. Guy meets good looking hipster chick, she doesn't worship the ground he walks on and talks back to him, so he falls for her (shit, typing it out, I can apply this to the show version of Shae and her relationship with Tyrion, too). Adorable. Totally belongs in an adaptation of GRRM's work.


----------



## Suigetsu (May 9, 2013)

Fierce said:


> Everything about Talisa from Volantis and her relationship with Robb. Guy meets good looking hipster chick, she doesn't worship the ground he walks on and talks back to him, so he falls for her (shit, typing it out, I can apply this to the show version of Shae and her relationship with Tyrion, too). Adorable. Totally belongs in an adaptation of GRRM's work.



I didnt like Talisa of Volantis. Besides this guys are supposed to be super elitist when it comes to marrying no?
In the book it did made sense, Robb being the son of Eddard stark and being honor bound. It almost comes to a metaphor that the honor of the father was its undoing and so was the same with the son.


----------



## Shrike (May 9, 2013)

Fierce said:


> 1. I love the LotR trilogy, unconditionally. I liked The Hobbit part 1 well enough, too. There goes your theory and half of your pointless rant.



Because you probably aren't such a huge fan of LOTR to being with as you are frenzied about ASOIAF. People who love Tolkien enough to even learn the Sindarian language would tell you that the adaptation is pretty bad, I assure you, just like you say for this series.

Beside that, plot and characters of LOTR is a lot easier to present on the screen than ASOIAF, it is no wonder people find it more likable.

Part 1 of Hobbit was, for the fans, again a disappointment. They went apeshit over Radagast and many other things.



Fierce said:


> 2. Actually yes, there are some characters that don't look right, relative to my imagination/their descriptions in the books. Some of them were so far off that it bothered me in season 1. As time went on, I learned that I'd be okay with the physical aspect being off if they actually played their respective characters well. Most of them don't. With that being said, I love how you went off on a tangent over something I didn't even bring up.



I love how I went there, because it was true.



Fierce said:


> 3. I answered the question about why it's a _fact_, not a matter of opinion, that there's a significantly different feeling when watching the show than when reading the books. Instead of presenting an argument, you ignored that and told me I don't understand adaptations. Good work.



But you _don't_ understand adaptations. It HAS to have a different feeling that the fucking book, or does somebody needs to show you a graphic scheme of how it all works? There is nothing to present an argument over. You just don't get how it works.



Fierce said:


> As for cliches, I could probably pick them out of 75% of the scenes, and 100% of the scenes that don't exist in the books, if I cared to go back through every episode, which I would never put myself through. I really don't care enough to list a bunch, but here's an easy one. Everything about Talisa from Volantis and her relationship with Robb. Guy meets good looking hipster chick, she doesn't worship the ground he walks on and talks back to him, so he falls for her (shit, typing it out, I can apply this to the show version of Shae and her relationship with Tyrion, too). Adorable. Totally belongs in an adaptation of GRRM's work.



I have already mentioned somewhere that Shae is a horrible actress and that her role is even more so. It has nothing to do with cliches though, it's just a matter of horrible script for her character and her being a terrible actress. But there is nothing strange about Robb. Sure it sucks for her to be from Volantis, but men like women with character. You won't marry a cum hungry slut because she does everything you say because you view her as an object, no matter how much she is satisfying your needs. You will marry a woman that is intelligent and has class. That is, if you know how the real world functions and how does a male/female relationship work. And yes, it does belong in the GRRM area and goes beyond his area.

Funny how you view him as a god of realism. Ridiculous, actually. It's even more ridiculous that you would complain about Robb and Talisa and you wouldn't complain about George's Khal Drogo, the great and might savage warrior who got pussified by a 13 year old Daenerys.


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## Suigetsu (May 9, 2013)

Spike_Shrike said:


> Funny how you view him as a god of realism. Ridiculous, actually. It's even more ridiculous that you would complain about Robb and Talisa and you wouldn't complain about George's Khal Drogo, the great and might savage warrior who got pussified by a *17 *year old Daenerys.



Am I the only one that didnt like Talisa of Volantis then?

I still prefer Jeyne Westerling, Imo I really wanted to see the westerlings.


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## Shrike (May 9, 2013)

Suigetsu said:


> Am I the only one that didnt like Talisa of Volantis then?
> 
> I still prefer Jeyne Westerling, Imo I really wanted to see the westerlings.



In the books, Daenerys is 13 when she is given to Khal Drogo.

And Westerlings are too small a house, so instead of showing us yet another noble family they settles for a random girl who won't be having any family. Which is somewhat okay, so yeah, I don't think many people have problems with Talisa.


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## Megaharrison (May 9, 2013)

Talisa is hot enough where I can appreciate her over my image of Jeyne Westerling. If GRRM intends to reveal that the whole Jeyne thing was a ploy/trap for Robb, then the Talisa change could make things a bit iffy (though the TV show could write in their own version).


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## kazuri (May 9, 2013)

Saw that the box set was on sale for this at walmart for 25 bucks. Wish I would have got it but I just spent exactly that much on a few other books literally days before..


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## Fierce (May 9, 2013)

Spike_Shrike said:


> But you _don't_ understand adaptations. It HAS to have a different feeling that the fucking book, or does somebody needs to show you a graphic scheme of how it all works? There is nothing to present an argument over. You just don't get how it works.



I'm bored of arguing about opinions, so this is the only thing I'll address. The initial statement from someone else was that the show felt like the book. I explained why that is not the case. Clearly you agree with me. Yet for some reason you have decided that I'm somehow arguing something completely different.


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## God (May 9, 2013)

Wah the show is mean to my books wah


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## Suigetsu (May 9, 2013)

Spike_Shrike said:


> In the books, Daenerys is 13 when she is given to Khal Drogo.
> 
> And Westerlings are too small a house, so instead of showing us yet another noble family they settles for a random girl who won't be having any family. Which is somewhat okay, so yeah, I don't think many people have problems with Talisa.



Yeah but Talissa doesnt make sense for Robb to forsake his word on the freys. Having another noble house honor on the line thought, would had made more sense.

Instead we just have this hipster girl back talking and being of interest to Robb out of the fucking blue. In order to have more scenes of talk and chat like a freaking soap opera.
That's just my opinion.

Regardless of that, poor Jeyne westerling.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (May 10, 2013)

One thing I will not forgive the show for is its basically ruining of Stannis's character. Outside of that, its passable.


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## Suigetsu (May 10, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> One thing I will not forgive the show for is its basically ruining of Stannis's character. Outside of that, its passable.



Well at least they brought back his wife. If you remember back in season two they where basically kicking out his wife from the series, and to me that made Stannis look very pathetic. But now in season 3 he seems better, specially since they brought back his wife and made her into the kickass fanatic that she was supposed to be.

Imo, I dont like the actor for Jon Snow, he is always pouting.


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## Nic (May 10, 2013)

never was a big fan of Stannis until book 5 anyways, so i'll see how the show treats him when it gets to that point before deciding whether the show is doing a good job with his character or not.


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## Fierce (May 10, 2013)

Show-Stannis is a one man army, storming walls and slicing off the tops of people's heads. He's also desperately horny. They did a bad job with him.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (May 10, 2013)

Nic said:


> never was a big fan of Stannis until book 5 anyways, so i'll see how the show treats him when it gets to that point before deciding whether the show is doing a good job with his character or not.


The core of Stannis's character comes in books 2 and 3. The Cressen chapter especially was essential in understanding and sympathizing with Stannis and there was no way the show could have ever given a proper adaptation of that chapter. Stannis has no PoV chapters, so the views of the characters around him, mainly Davos are how we learn about him and see his actions but as most of Davos's chapters are internal monologue the show doesn't have a proper way of giving us even a fraction of his thoughts and feelings. 

The shortcomings of a show adaptation aren't what I'm faulting them for though. What I fault them for is making him an even hornier Rambo, which is close to the farthest from his actual character that you can get.


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## Megaharrison (May 10, 2013)

Fierce said:


> Show-Stannis is a one man army, storming walls and slicing off the tops of people's heads. He's also desperately horny. They did a bad job with him.



Showing he's a warrior who leads by example made him more badass. It's stated in the books anyway that he has sex with Melisandre constantly, the Melisandre POV chapter more or less confirms this. So.


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## Fierce (May 10, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> Showing he's a warrior who leads by example made him more badass. It's stated in the books anyway that he has sex with Melisandre constantly, the Melisandre POV chapter more or less confirms this. So.



He's not a warrior who leads by example, though. He's a commander/general. The guy dictating where everyone else needs to be for the highest chance of success. Just like Ned (who the show also made out to be a badass), or Tywin.  I'm not going to pretend to be positive about how the text goes in this case, but I believe it's implied, once or twice, that Stannis and Melisandre did...something, to create the shadows that killed Renly and Cortnay Penrose. It's not like they were knocking boots all the time for the fun of it. She convinced Stannis it was something he had to do to ensure victory. But as always, the show took something subtle and blew it up into a flamboyant affair cause they think a show can only thrive on eye candy.


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## Fiona (May 10, 2013)

Fierce said:


> He's not a warrior who leads by example, though. He's a commander/general. The guy dictating where everyone else needs to be for the highest chance of success. Just like Ned (who the show also made out to be a badass), or Tywin.  I'm not going to pretend to be positive about how the text goes in this case, but I believe it's implied, once or twice, that Stannis and Melisandre did...something, to create the shadows that killed Renly and Cortnay Penrose. It's not like they were knocking boots all the time for the fun of it. She convinced Stannis it was something he had to do to ensure victory. But as always, the show took something subtle and blew it up into a flamboyant affair cause they think a show can only thrive on eye candy.



You are just plain determined to be negative about the show/book comparison arent you. 

Stannis's character was done the way it was because of convenience. We didnt have pages and pages to get to know this guy. We had minutes. We had to be shown his personality traits and skills in the extreme in order for the audience who have never read the books to understand. 

- He trusts Mellisandre_ completely_ to an almost crazily dependent degree 

- He has sex with her

- He is a skilled fighter 

- He is a skilled Tactician

- He is fearless

- He has no real love for his wife

- He cares for his daughter

All of those traits were show in the books via references made by other characters. In the show we dont have the luxury of inner monologues or smalltalk. They basically had to throw all those facts at us in the short span that they had and they had to push some examples to the extreme in order to get the point across quickly enough. 

Would he have stormed the wall first and just started cleaving heads in the book? No. This is one of the instances where i will say that show improved on the book somewhat. Stannis was always referenced as a great warrior and this was the way they chose to show it. I for one think it was awesome. 

We that have read the books know exactly what kind of man he is, but the show can only do so much. 

Does he match up perfectly to the book counterpart? No way. 

Does he stay close to the overall look and feel of the character? Yes. 

I will say again. No show will ever capture the look and feel of a book and its characters 100%, but Game Of Thrones comes damn close for the most part.


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## Fierce (May 10, 2013)

Fiona said:


> You are just plain determined to be negative about the show/book comparison arent you



Ironic statement, given your place on the opposite side of the spectrum.


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## Fiona (May 10, 2013)

Fierce said:


> Ironic statement, given your place on the opposite side of the spectrum.



I like how you dodged my entire point via witty response to my first sentence.


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## Dragonus Nesha (May 10, 2013)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> How about instead of single sentence stabs at each other, we take time to elaborate on what we mean?


Perhaps I was being too subtle: Stop trying to insult each other or you will get booted.

Clear enough now?


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## Shrike (May 10, 2013)

I definitely dislike the most how the show carried Melisandre and Stannis, agreed with whoever said it.

Stannis is not only different in demeanor, but is also isn't the warrior type (and Fierce, Ned actually IS, because he charged into a fight with his troops more then once, although it's true that Tywin isn't). Stannis is a man who thinks that it's his gods given right to be a king and to rule, which also means he views other people as if they were below him. Thus, he is of a stance that they should die for their king if need be, but he would never risk the front lines. So far, at least, that's what his character has shown.

Melisandre also isn't well cast. She seems more like a seductress, but she is more stern in the books. Dunno, I just didn't like her cast much.

Though, most characters are at least okay, and some are even better than in the books (Geoffrey, for example. The kid is awesome!).


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## Nae'blis (May 10, 2013)

I wouldn't say Stannis thinks that it is his "god given right", as he was telling Davos he didn't really give a shit about the Seven since his parents death. It's his right because he is the legitimate heir to the kingdom through Robert.

It being an HBO television series, I expect lots of tits/ass. Expect subtleties to be bold-faced and highlighted.


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## Fierce (May 11, 2013)

Fiona said:


> I like how you dodged my entire point via witty response to my first sentence.



What was I supposed to respond to? You agreed he was not the same character from the book (while still saying he was close enough, which I don't agree with, but I already said I'm bored of arguing opinion).


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## Megaharrison (May 11, 2013)

Fierce said:


> He's not a warrior who leads by example, though. He's a commander/general. The guy dictating where everyone else needs to be for the highest chance of success. Just like Ned (who the show also made out to be a badass), or Tywin.  I'm not going to pretend to be positive about how the text goes in this case, but I believe it's implied, once or twice, that Stannis and Melisandre did...something, to create the shadows that killed Renly and Cortnay Penrose. It's not like they were knocking boots all the time for the fun of it. She convinced Stannis it was something he had to do to ensure victory. But as always, the show took something subtle and blew it up into a flamboyant affair cause they think a show can only thrive on eye candy.



In the Melisandre POV Chapter, she says that without her in Stannis' bed, it "won't get much use". They're clearly having a dedicated affair, just as in the show.


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## Fierce (May 12, 2013)

Megaharrison said:


> In the Melisandre POV Chapter, she says that without her in Stannis' bed, it "won't get much use". They're clearly having a dedicated affair, just as in the show.



_Melisandre had spent the night in her chair by the fire, as she often did. With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use. She had no time for sleep, with the weight of the world upon her shoulders. And she feared to dream._

What's clear about this? This sounds to me like she's too stressed to sleep. She is afraid with Stannis gone, worried about him. Even if it refers to sleeping together, it doesn't prove the frequency of the deed or that he's desperately lusting for her, as in the show. 

I even deferred to other opinions, to see if I was the only one who didn't feel this was so "clear."

Link removed


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## Shrike (May 12, 2013)

It's... very clear? They are obviously doing it, but if you ask me, Stannis does it because it's his "duty" rather then being a lust boy. Just doesn't sit well with his character at all. 

I was rather surprised by that sentence. I thought Stannis fucked her only once or twice, but the statement in narrative is an obvious hint to them sleeping together. And there is no point in sleeping with your servant sorceress if you aren't doing her.


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## Whirlpool (May 31, 2013)

I know it's a book thread but...


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## FitzChivalry (May 31, 2013)

Stannis and Melisandre. In true GRRM fashion, that relationship was always written ambiguously, especially as it relates to any more intimate meetings between the two. I always leaned on the side that they were, in fact, fucking. Though to completely guess, I also don't see them doing that on a regular basis. Then again, I have absolutely nothing on which to base that last part.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jun 1, 2013)

It kind of confuses me. What Mel says suggests they are, as well as the actual reality of the shadow babies.

But what Stannis says suggests they're not, as well as what we know of him.

The conflict makes me think either Stannis doesn't remember or its some sort of symbolic ritual, like the leeches or maybe she comes to him in dreams or something.

Something has to be powering Mel's magic though, we know that's how it works. Fire and blood.


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## Torpedo Titz (Jun 1, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> On the subject of Melisandre and her shadow spawn, was anyone expecting her to engage in sexual intercourse with Jon, when she arrived at The Wall and expressed great fondness for him? I was, and thus, I was disappointed when that did not occur.



I still am, my good man. I still am. 

It was one of the dynamics which made Jon's story my favourite overall perspective in _Dance_.



DemonDragonJ said:


> Also, why would a worshiper of a god of light summon shadow spawn? That makes little sense to me.



Shadow is not necessarily darkness and the connotations of evil associated with the latter are not always applicable. After all, shadow exists because of light; the brightest light casts the darkest shadows etc.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 1, 2013)

Jon Stark said:


> Shadow is not necessarily darkness and the connotations of evil associated with the latter are not always applicable. After all, shadow exists because of light; the brightest light casts the darkest shadows etc.



Yes, that does make sense, and could also be an apt comment about this entire series, with how the protagonists seem to thrive under the harshest of circumstances.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jun 1, 2013)

Mel flat out says the line about Shadows being children of the light. You could say it was a sign she maybe sinister... but then we got her POV chapter in DWD that flatout shows she is sincere and legit : /

And yes, she does try to bang Jon but he wisely declines.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 1, 2013)

The Pink Ninja said:


> And yes, she does try to bang Jon but he wisely declines.



Why did he decline? It does not seem to me that Melisandre's partners have ever experienced any negative side effects.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 1, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> It does not seem to me that Melisandre's partners have ever experienced any negative side effects.


Have you seen read Davos' descriptions of Stannis?


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## The Pink Ninja (Jun 1, 2013)

Quite apart from that he is a man of the wall.

Worse, a Lord Commander.


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## Amrun (Jun 1, 2013)

The Pink Ninja said:


> Mel flat out says the line about Shadows being children of the light. You could say it was a sign she maybe sinister... but then we got her POV chapter in DWD that flatout shows she is sincere and legit : /
> 
> And yes, she does try to bang Jon but he wisely declines.



Yeah, she's sincere, but is she RIGHT?


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 1, 2013)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> Have you seen read Davos' descriptions of Stannis?



Yes, but I do not recall it very well.


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## Magicbullet (Jun 2, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, but I do not recall it very well.



It seems to be sucking the life out of him IIRC. 


She gonna need another one soon.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jun 2, 2013)

Magicbullet said:


> She gonna need another one soon.



Yes, she shall need a lover who is younger and stronger, hence why I desired to see her turn her seductive charm on Jon.


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## OctavioPang (Jun 3, 2013)

Lets see about that..


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## hcheng02 (Jun 5, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Yes, but I do not recall it very well.



Basically Stannis looks prematurely aged since each shadow baby is powered by his life force. Melisandre basically stops at 2 because another one will kill him.

And the TV Stannis seems way more expressive with his emotions than the book version. He seems overall more caring. In the books, he seems to feel nothing but contempt for his wife, and he never seems to meet with his daughter at all. In the TV series, he at least feels sorry for cheating on his wife and seems to genuinely care for his daughter. The only real issue is how he seems too clingy to Melisandre, especially during the scene when she's leaving to get Gendry.


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## Magicbullet (Jun 5, 2013)

I've noticed the TV-series sometimes makes contrived attempts to humanize a couple of the characters, attempts which generally suck because they're handled badly, not that the characters don't lend themselves well to humanization.


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## Shrike (Jun 7, 2013)

They are just trying to make them all more likable, like Cat when she talked how sorry she was for her behavior towards Jon, which, yeah, do suck, but it's better for general audiences.


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## Torpedo Titz (Jun 7, 2013)

Magicbullet said:


> I've noticed the TV-series sometimes makes contrived attempts to humanize a couple of the characters, attempts which generally suck because they're handled badly, not that the characters don't lend themselves well to humanization.



Could you provide some examples which aren't the Catelyn-Jon one? Not that I'm contesting the point, I'm just curious.

From the fragments I've seen of the TV adaptation Robert, Cersei, Tywin and Stannis feel more humane, and to the contrary, Joffrey seems worse in a blunt sense. No surprise as the show has been heavy-handed with characterisation in the past; Renly's sexual orientation, for example.


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## Magicbullet (Jun 7, 2013)

Jon Stark said:


> Could you provide some examples which aren't the Catelyn-Jon one? Not that I'm contesting the point, I'm just curious.
> 
> From the fragments I've seen of the TV adaptation Robert, Cersei, Tywin and Stannis feel more humane, and to the contrary, Joffrey seems worse in a blunt sense. No surprise as the show has been heavy-handed with characterisation in the past; Renly's sexual orientation, for example.



I was going to say Tywin and Stannis (most of all) but it seems to have worked for you. 
Then there's Jaime. 
I can't remember if Ned's extra pinch of humanization was good or bad. I recall thinking it was good once, but now I kinda feel they were all bad. 

Mind you, I've gone and stated an opinion formed at the time when I was actually watching the show, and couldn't come up with examples now to save my life. Though I could have another go at the thing, now that I'll have free time.


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## vagnard (Jun 13, 2013)

Jon Stark said:


> Could you provide some examples which aren't the Catelyn-Jon one? Not that I'm contesting the point, I'm just curious.
> 
> From the fragments I've seen of the TV adaptation Robert, Cersei, Tywin and Stannis feel more humane, and to the contrary, Joffrey seems worse in a blunt sense. No surprise as the show has been heavy-handed with characterisation in the past; Renly's sexual orientation, for example.



For me Cersei is the most clear example. In the show you see her interacting with Tyrion a lot of times and having normal conversations with him. Even sharing with him her feelings. In the books Cersei's hatred for Tyrion is much more evident. Cersei see Tyrion like a plague... like something must be erradicated. Also Cersei from the books worships Joeffrey while the TV version actually questions his actions. 

Basically the TV series paints Cersei as a ruthless yet caring mother. She is cruel yet sane at some degree. In the books she is plainly a crazy bitch and incompetent ruler.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 15, 2013)

man, I'm rereading some of book 3 and Jaimes chapter about the Kingsguard meeting upon his return is just 10/10


1-handed Jaime might have replaced Tyrion as favorite character for me


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## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Jun 18, 2013)

I've just read the Farseer Trylogy (1995-97) of Robin Hobb. Shame on me for not having read it earlier.

I'm astonished for the similiarities between Jon Snow and the Farseer main character Fitz. They are like twins.
I dont want to silly-talk about who has "copied" from who, but im wondering if Jon Snow will take the same destiny of Fitz.


*Spoiler*: _Huge Farseer spoiler_ 



Fitz is tortured by his uncle, to the point of  death.
But at the last moment of his life, his wolf, Nighteyes, to which he is magically bonded, appears.
And like a Warg, Fitz leaves his dying human body, and becomes one with his wolf. 




I was sure that Jon was going to "enter" temporarily into Ghost, but knowing GRRM hardcore mindset now im not sure what path he will take.


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## Amrun (Jun 18, 2013)

vagnard said:


> For me Cersei is the most clear example. In the show you see her interacting with Tyrion a lot of times and having normal conversations with him. Even sharing with him her feelings. In the books Cersei's hatred for Tyrion is much more evident. Cersei see Tyrion like a plague... like something must be erradicated. Also Cersei from the books worships Joeffrey while the TV version actually questions his actions.
> 
> Basically the TV series paints Cersei as a ruthless yet caring mother. She is cruel yet sane at some degree. In the books she is plainly a crazy bitch and incompetent ruler.



Actually, I think the book and show are pretty consistent with how I perceived Cersei... The show just shows more of her humane side, making it explicit rather than implied.


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## Fierce (Jun 18, 2013)

I agree with vagnard.


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## Amrun (Jun 18, 2013)

What I mean is, SHOWING more of her sympathetic side obviously facilitates a change in perception of her character -- but it doesn't actually CONTRADICT anything in the books, which vagnard implies it does.

And her softer side was always, always implied in the books as well -- we just didn't get pet the dog scenes for her.


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## Fierce (Jun 19, 2013)

Where was this softer side implied in the books? She cares deeply for her children and less so for her twin brother. That's about it. Do you consider getting belligerent or dejected when she doesn't get her way a "softer side"?


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## Amrun (Jun 19, 2013)

It was implied a lot, I think, just in how she handles certain things.  Especially how she thinks about Robert, and how hurt she was that he didn't love her, and how that hurt grew to bitterness.  And later, about how she was promised to Rhagnar (that's not his name but I can't remember it), how that whole story was told shows a sympathetic side to her where she just couldn't understand why she was treated differently than Jaime, and then, when she finally accepted her fate, she didn't even get the fate she wanted and never really recovered from that.

In my opinion, and I know several people that share it, she was always a redeemable character.  She's just NOT going to be redeemed.


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## Rios (Jun 19, 2013)

Her killer has been hyped up for several books. She is gonna die and its gonna be good.


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## Shrike (Jun 19, 2013)

As much as I respect Lena as an actress... Book Cersei is by far worse than the one from the show. And by far a more interesting character.


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## Rios (Jun 19, 2013)

It shouldnt be the actor's fault. The series have a trend of making most character more sympathetic than their book counterparts(Robb and his wife are the best examples). 

Weirdly enough no punches were pulled with Joffrey and Jaime was actually worse in the show than in the book.

Its......messy.


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## martryn (Jun 19, 2013)

Rios, who are you referring to as Cersei's eventual killer.  I thought of someone when you said it, but then I thought of someone else immediately after that, so which are you referring to.


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## Rios (Jun 19, 2013)

The Valonqar, which could be either Tyrion or Jaime. So far both of them seem unlikely but who knows what will happen.

EDIT: If I am to put forth a theory I'd say it will be resurrected Jaime.


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## Delicious (Jun 19, 2013)

Some people say it could be The Hound too.


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## Gunners (Jun 19, 2013)

I have a feeling that Jamie will be the one to kill her. Prophecies in literature have a way of materialising, but with an ironic twist. For Cersei she spent her life fearing and hating Tyrion, whilst fucking/loving her other younger ( even if just) brother Jamie.

Also Cersei's character is difficult to explain, and I can understand why the show writers have taken a different approach with portraying her character. Through modern eyes her actions cannot be sympathised with, however by medieval standards she is behaving normally. It wasn't common for people to take prophecies seriously in their time, or for individuals to take drastic actions to protect their young/legacy, role prestige/title played etc. I think in books it is easier to become submerged in the culture they're living in, but on the screen there is still somewhat of a barrier as you're viewing from the outside. 

If you're reading then it is more likely that you will understand Cersei's actions ( even if you don't agree with them), but if they were presented on the screen exactly as they are in the books it'd seem completely unreasonable/without foundation.


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## Rios (Jun 19, 2013)

Or maybe they didnt have enough time to create the proper atmosphere.


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## Gunners (Jun 19, 2013)

Rios said:


> Or maybe they didnt have enough time to create the proper atmosphere.


Nope it is just the general barrier between novels and the screen. In the novels you are able to see how the characters reason things, which better places you in the world as you see things from their eyes. On the screen you're looking at their world from the outside.

Also something about you is mildly annoying.


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## Rios (Jun 20, 2013)

Which should create an even better atmosphere because the show has the liberty of not following strictly POVs but playing with the characters a lot more freely, also giving us scenes, which are not even in the books to help us understand things better. The only reason it wouldnt succeed is budged/time constraints.


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## Magicbullet (Jun 20, 2013)

Though the book narrative frequently depicts what characters comprehend/think and don't show. It would be very difficult to render in the TV series.


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## Rios (Jun 20, 2013)

It depends very much on the character. The three Lannister POV characters for example are very outspoken, maybe except Jaime, but we find out about his secret very soon after he gets his own POV. Tyrion gets in trouble exactly because he says what he thinks, Cersei likes to gloat. We even have the character of Taena, someone Cersei likes to share her plans with.

The only times, where character thoughts are hard to put on a TV screen, is when the character in question cant talk freely(Theon in Dance) or when the character reminiscences old memories.

Cersei for example thinks about Rhaegar, Robert and the prophecy, where her younger brother kills her. Most of this can explain her hatred and bitterness, most of this can also be implemented in the show as character dialogue.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 20, 2013)

Davos, Cressen(in his one chapter), Theon in ADWD and to a lesser extent Aeron are all characters whose thoughts and chapters are hard to put on a TV screen. Those are just the ones off the top of my head.


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## Rios (Jun 21, 2013)

Isnt Davos one of the most simplistic POV characters alongside Quentyn and Areo Hotah?


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## Naruto Uzumaki (Jul 20, 2013)

Can someone link or tell me who did Bran see in his greensight visions?


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## Suigetsu (Jul 20, 2013)

Man am I the only one tired of all the beyond the wall bullshit? seems like its there just because the fck of it. Besides the entire continent its filled with awful horrible human beings. A wipe would suit them good.


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## Naruto Uzumaki (Jul 21, 2013)

I like Bran parts.


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## Kikyo (Jul 21, 2013)

Did the Glacier spill anything about the next book at SDCC's GoT panel? Or was that just for stuff on the show? 

I did hear that the show is approved for 8 seasons and will be able to conclude without Martin, should that be necessary.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 21, 2013)

Suigetsu said:


> Man am I the only one tired of all the beyond the wall bullshit? seems like its there just because the fck of it. Besides the entire continent its filled with awful horrible human beings. A wipe would suit them good.



Why do you say that? I am very interested to learn more about what lies beyond the Wall, and it is clear that Martin added that element of mystery and suspense specifically to keep the readers intrigued.


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## Rios (Jul 21, 2013)

The Others are obviously the good guys while the dragons and the Red God are the bad guys.


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## Naruto Uzumaki (Jul 21, 2013)

Its nothing bad about eating people


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## Nic (Jul 21, 2013)

Rios said:


> The Others are obviously the good guys while the dragons and the Red God are the bad guys.



i don't think the Others are pure evil either. I think they are the children of the forest means of fighting back against the humans who had invaded them 8000 years before.  At least a portion of the children of the forest. I think it's fairly obvious as well Dany is being set up as an antagonist.  In her last chapter she even talks about changing her mind and conquering through blood and fire.  We also know that GRMM likes to have the world of GOT relate evil things to such thing as rape, i*c*st etc, and yet here we have Dany being born out of both i*c*st and rape to a family line that goes mad every other child.


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## Suigetsu (Jul 22, 2013)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Why do you say that? I am very interested to learn more about what lies beyond the Wall, and it is clear that Martin added that element of mystery and suspense specifically to keep the readers intrigued.



I find the politics and moving of armies and battles more interesting. In my own opinion that is.
Shit beyond the wall its just... there and it happens. Notice how everything else moves outside of it.

But whatever, as long as it can entertain.


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## Amrun (Jul 23, 2013)

Rios said:


> The Others are obviously the good guys while the dragons and the Red God are the bad guys.



I could see this happening, but not so black and white.

I think that even after it's over, people will argue about who the good/bad guys are.


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## Doctor Strange (Jul 23, 2013)

Nic said:


> i don't think the Others are pure evil either. I think they are the children of the forest means of fighting back against the humans who had invaded them 8000 years before.  At least a portion of the children of the forest. I think it's fairly obvious as well Dany is being set up as an antagonist.  In her last chapter she even talks about changing her mind and conquering through blood and fire.  We also know that GRMM likes to have the world of GOT relate evil things to such thing as rape, i*c*st etc, and yet here we have Dany being born out of both i*c*st and rape to a family line that goes mad every other child.



Daenerys is not going to be an an antagonist. (The spoiler tags are for the people who don't wan't their mind blown.

The real character that's has been set up to be an antagonist since the beginning  is


The quote that sets it up

*Spoiler*: __ 



 From Melisandre   " A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment . . . but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.




And that's

*Spoiler*: __ 



  The three eyed crow is the great other




People think the next dance of dragons will be daenerys vs ageon, but i think it will be

*Spoiler*: __ 



Brynden Rivers The great other  and bran VS Daenerys the princess that was promised and Jon





If you didn't hate daenerys so much you would have realized it long ago.

Smart tactic by grrm.. Using one of the most hated characters as a red herring for turning one of his most characters into a protagonist .


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## Shrike (Jul 23, 2013)

Brynden isn't the Great Other. Why didn't you continue that quote? Because Melisandre cast aside the idea that he is the "enemy" (aka the Great Other, the Night King) since his visage would be much more horrific and she wouldn't be able to set her eyes upon him without seeing something terrible, or something along those lines.

And there is no reason whatsoever to think that Bran would end up as an "antagonist". First and foremost, it would be stupid as fuck. Secondly, Bran is a kind kid and he didn't have Meera and Jojen bring him all the way there so that he could wipe the humans of the continent. It would be ridiculous to have a powerful kid greenseer from the marshlands go through all that trouble so that Bran could become a "villain". No, just no. You have been reading too much weird and nonsensical bullshit such as that Ragnarok/ASOIAF crap, where it is evident how extreme can some nerds be in trying to make parallels that only they are able to see, like madmen. They others who are delusional come and are like "Hmm, makes sense!". Ugh.


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## Doctor Strange (Jul 23, 2013)

Spike_Shrike said:


> Brynden isn't the Great Other. Why didn't you continue that quote? Because Melisandre cast aside the idea that he is the "enemy" (aka the Great Other, the Night King) since his visage would be much more horrific and she wouldn't be able to set her eyes upon him without seeing something terrible, or something along those lines.
> 
> And there is no reason whatsoever to think that Bran would end up as an "antagonist". First and foremost, it would be stupid as fuck. Secondly, Bran is a kind kid and he didn't have Meera and Jojen bring him all the way there so that he could wipe the humans of the continent. It would be ridiculous to have a powerful kid greenseer from the marshlands go through all that trouble so that Bran could become a "villain". No, just no. You have been reading too much weird and nonsensical bullshit such as that Ragnarok/ASOIAF crap, where it is evident how extreme can some nerds be in trying to make parallels that only they are able to see, like madmen. They others who are delusional come and are like "Hmm, makes sense!". Ugh.



"Bran is a kind kid" Sigh, it's best to remove all emotion when speaking on characters.


"You have been reading too much weird and nonsensical bullshit such as that Ragnarok/ASOIAF crap, where it is evident how extreme can some nerds be in trying to make parallels that only they are able to see, like madmen. They others who are delusional come and are like "Hmm, makes sense!"   Like the ones above who think the others are good?

"The dark eye has fallen upon her, and the minions of night are plotting her destruction, praying to their false gods in temples of deceit"
This is either brynden or euron.

I guess we have to wait and see....I was just throwing that out there.


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## Naruto Uzumaki (Jul 23, 2013)

The Three eyed crow is the great other? And Bran a bad guy? Lol what the fuck.

It will be The others vs The Watch, Bran and the children, most of Westeros.

They will get raped because the Watch and Westeros are all fucked up. Dany will come and save them, they will erect her queen.


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## Doctor Strange (Jul 23, 2013)

Naruto Uzumaki said:


> The Three eyed crow is the great other? And Bran a bad guy? Lol what the fuck.
> 
> It will be The others vs The Watch, Bran and the children, most of Westeros.
> 
> They will get raped because the Watch and Westeros are all fucked up. Dany will come and save them, they will erect her queen.



I'm guessing no one here has read The sworn sword.

A antagonist  does not always equate to villain/bad guy.

Stannis could be seen as a villain in a clash of kings from tyrion's perspective.
Rhaeger and robert can both be seen as villains during their battle. 

The game of thrones isn't black and white.


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## Fierce (Jul 23, 2013)

Naruto Uzumaki said:


> The Three eyed crow is the great other? And Bran a bad guy? Lol what the fuck.
> 
> It will be The others vs The Watch, Bran and the children, most of Westeros.
> 
> They will get raped because the Watch and Westeros are all fucked up. Dany will come and save them, they will erect her queen.



This theory is as laughable as Bloodraven being The Great Other. Do people really still use such cliche ideology when theorizing about the future of this series?


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## Doctor Strange (Jul 24, 2013)

Fierce said:


> This theory is as laughable as Bloodraven being The Great Other. Do people really still use such *cliche *ideology when theorizing about the future of this series?



Sort of like rhaegar and lyanna being the westeros version romeo and juliet?

Romeo= Rhaegar 
Juliet= Lyanna
Paris= Robert
Benevolio= JonCon
Mercretio= Arthur 
Tybalt= Brandon
Lord Montague=Aerys
Lord Captulet= Rickard

I don't think the great other is going to be a whitewalker, but  will be a figure that's on their side.


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## Amrun (Jul 24, 2013)

Doctor Strange said:


> I'm guessing no one here has read The sworn sword.
> 
> A antagonist  does not always equate to villain/bad guy.
> 
> ...



Definitely agree with this.

Bran is a possibility.  As long as he thinks he is doing the right thing, he will do it.  He is capable of making hard choices.


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## Doctor Strange (Jul 24, 2013)

Amrun said:


> Definitely agree with this.
> 
> Bran is a possibility.  As long as he thinks he is doing the right thing, he will do it.  He is capable of making hard choices.



Finally someone gets it.

Tyrion and jaime    technically could  also be seen as   villains from the stark perspective during the first trilogy.....Roose bolton/walder/tywin saved thousands 
of casualties by performing the rw

Heroes and villains are not in this story.


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## Naruto Uzumaki (Jul 24, 2013)

Doctor Strange said:


> I'm guessing no one here has read The sworn sword.
> 
> A antagonist  does not always equate to villain/bad guy.
> 
> ...


So do you think an other will have a POV or something? The others are basically zombies, no way they can be the good guy unless the entire "human" race become the villains. 

I can see Dany/Jon/Bran trying to make peace with the others though lol


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## Doctor Strange (Jul 24, 2013)

Naruto Uzumaki said:


> So do you think an other will have a POV or something? The others are basically zombies, no way they can be the good guy unless the entire "human" race become the villains.



]So do you think an other will have a POV or something/?"  Maybe coldhands.
There are no good guys in this story


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## Rios (Jul 24, 2013)

Greenseers were something common in the ancient times. While The Great Other is supposed to be someone with godlike powers similar to The Red God. So unless you think that The Red God's religion is a newly formed pussy one thinking Brynden is in fact this so called evil god is silly.



> Roose bolton/walder/tywin saved thousands
> of casualties by performing the rw



Wrong. Thousands of northerners died on this wedding, not only the important war generals. It has the same amount of casualties a regular war would have, it just happened faster.


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## Doctor Strange (Jul 24, 2013)

"Wrong. Thousands of northerners died on this wedding, not only the important war generals. It has the same amount of casualties a regular war would have, it just happened faster."

Why should that  concern tywin? They rebelled and supported a king who  got them into a war they had no chance of winning at that point. Tywin saved thousands of   innocent  citizens and lannister/tyrell forces by  the rw.


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## Rios (Jul 24, 2013)

Again wrong. Tywin didnt have enough forces to make the kingdoms peaceful. Robb had a plan to take over the North and at least make the lands there peaceful again.

What Tywin managed to achieve was months of instability in the Riverlands and the North and yes, hundreds if not thousands of innocents presumably died because of it.

Tywin was a huge hypocrite, taking his words for granted is a bad move.


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## Zaru (Jul 24, 2013)

War casualties are more than just the soldiers.

Winter is coming and the warring factions were eating the entire central part of the region dry.


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## Naruto Uzumaki (Jul 24, 2013)

Doctor Strange said:


> ]So do you think an other will have a POV or something/?"  Maybe coldhands.
> There are no good guys in this story


From different POV of course there isnt. But I think the others are the only "people" that may be considered bad.


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## Rios (Jul 24, 2013)

Zaru said:


> War casualties are more than just the soldiers.
> 
> Winter is coming and the warring factions were eating the entire central part of the region dry.



And they still do. Because the war never really ended.


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## Shrike (Jul 24, 2013)

Nobody is saying anything is black and white. I expect many characters to get into the conflict, because having an army of zombies vs the whole world would be very, very boring. But Patchface has a better chance of being the Great Other (I am not joking now) then Bloodraven does. I just said that it would be pretty stupid to have Bran become the opponent of everyone else because his friends lead him to become so. No, he has other purpose then to lead the Others into battle.


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## Fierce (Jul 24, 2013)

Naruto Uzumaki said:


> So do you think an other will have a POV or something? The others are basically zombies, no way they can be the good guy unless the entire "human" race become the villains.



Wights...zombie-esque. The Others though....what makes you think they're basically zombies? We know next to nothing about them.


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## Amrun (Jul 24, 2013)




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## Corruption (Jul 24, 2013)

Bran and Bloodraven aren't going to turn out to be evil. In Bran's first dream of the 3-eyed crow he was shown the heart of winter and it terrified him. Bloodraven told him that was the reason why he had to live, because winter is coming.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jul 25, 2013)

Rios said:


> Isnt Davos one of the most simplistic POV characters alongside Quentyn and Areo Hotah?


Simplistic in what way? He isn't a highly intelligent character but his thoughts aren't simple at all times. He is a character that does a lot of introspection. Equating him to Quentyn and Areo Hotah is rather quite laughable, as I'd say hes one of the deepest characters in the series.


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## Naruto Uzumaki (Jul 25, 2013)

Fierce said:


> Wights...zombie-esque. The Others though....what makes you think they're basically zombies? We know next to nothing about them.


Old nan said they hate all life, from whatever book she got that from.


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## Chaos (Jul 25, 2013)

Aside from old nan not being the most accurate of sources within the series, the Others look far more like ice mages/necromancers than zombies to me. The wights they create are zombies, surely, but they themselves seem to be quite a few tiers above that level.


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## Naruto Uzumaki (Jul 25, 2013)

Not like the Others kill for no reason and everyone seem to dislike them. "May the Others take them" is close to saying "go to hell" imo.


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## Rios (Jul 25, 2013)

The Others come out to eradicate the magic in this world. Or something. Anyway I wouldnt be surprised if they are punishing humans for being stupid. No wonder they are hated.


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## Torpedo Titz (Jul 25, 2013)

I may have misconstrued this from _Feast_, but I'm sure the maesters of the Citadel suggest they have the capabilities to slay a dragon, and that dragons and to a greater extent magic itself is anathema to their order - rooted in the logical not the fantastical.

I've always found that much more interesting than this primordial clash Grum has been preparing for.


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## Chaos (Jul 25, 2013)

Naruto Uzumaki said:


> Not like the Others kill for no reason and everyone seem to dislike them. "May the Others take them" is close to saying "go to hell" imo.



Well yeah, but it's not like we've ever seen things from their point of view. The Others might be a severe threat to humans, but it's the other way around as well. Judged by the rest of the series, the Others probably have their own and good reasons for what they're doing, like everyone. It's already been established that the Others are intelligent. I wonder if GRRM will do a White Walker POV at some point, would be great.


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## Shrike (Jul 28, 2013)

I would like for things to remain gray as they are, and not to have a conflict of Others and Dragons because it seems so simple and quite boring compared to what we had so far. Magical creatures fighting each other isn't something that I would like to have as a most important conflict in the series. Others do seem pretty "evil" themselves though; they surrounded that young guy from the prologue of the first book and even laughed at him before they shew him. They seem like a primordial evil, and I doubt they will have "good" intentions or that they have good reasons for doing what they are doing (and hell, who the hell cares, they don't need a good reason, they are conquerors by nature most probably). It just sounds incredibly stupid to me that people would consider them being against human race because the humans wronged them or whatever or that they deserve it etc.


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## Rios (Jul 28, 2013)

The dragons are fodder. Their intelligence is pretty basic, they are simple animals. The Others at least seem intelligent enough to get killed by Sam build and control an army.


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## Nic (Jul 28, 2013)

GRMM has already said there would be a second dance of dragons.  Meaning they'll fight one another.  The three destined dragon riders are clearly Tyrion, Jon, and Dany.  so if the fight takes place between those three one has to think it would be Jon and Tyrion vs Dany (who seems to have the strongest dragon)


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## Rios (Jul 28, 2013)

I still believe the Ironborn will take one dragon. Otherwise its just too predictable.


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## Delicious (Jul 29, 2013)

Victarion getting a Dragon would be awesome!


I also want to see if anyone gets the horn that calls Krakens.


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## Amrun (Jul 29, 2013)

Ugh, Victarion.  What a stupid character.

But if any greyjoy gets a dragon, it would be him.


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## Rios (Jul 29, 2013)

He is becoming a One Piece character with his new arm.


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## Amrun (Jul 29, 2013)

I know a lot of people who fap over Victarion, but to me he is boring and predictable.  I kind of like him as a character for embodying the Iron Islands' ideal, and how it is different than most people's ideal, but I think he is kind of the bastardization of it and Asha has the real blood of the ironfolk etc.  I hope this becomes A Thing later, and his betrayal with the Red God and all that comes out.  I understand why he goes for it, because he responds to power, but there's really just no shred of sympathy in me for him, and I can have sympathy for ANYONE, including Cersei!

It's more that he's not interesting, though.  It's just like, "Oh... Victarion is fucking a bitch he doesn't care about.  Now he's burning some bitches he doesn't care about.  Whatever."

I know people who are like FUCK YEAH VICTARION, though.


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## Rios (Jul 29, 2013)

Asha knows how to kneel like a true Ironborn


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 29, 2013)

In this series, members of House Stark, most notably Ned, Robb, and Jon, have often been criticized for always seeking to take an honorable course of action; in most other fictional series, they would be praised for their honor, but this series is not most other series. I am not certain that I like the message that Martin is sending, there; whether it is deliberate or unintentional, it seems to me that Martin is implying that being honorable is hazardous to one's health or at least very foolish.

So, I wonder; why does being honorable seem to imply also being unintelligent or weak? Why could not Ned or his sons be honorable, but also be sufficiently strong and/or clever to ensure that their decision to be honorable would not have any negative consequences?


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## Whirlpool (Jul 29, 2013)

The Greyjoys are my macushla.

Euron and Victarion will rek dany innit. 



DemonDragonJ said:


> In this series, members of House Stark, most notably Ned, Robb, and Jon, have often been criticized for always seeking to take an honorable course of action; in most other fictional series, they would be praised for their honor, but this series is not most other series. I am not certain that I like the message that Martin is sending, there; whether it is deliberate or unintentional, it seems to me that Martin is implying that being honorable is hazardous to one's health or at least very foolish.



In a lion's den, trying to fight by normal means will only cause one's demise. :ignoramus



> So, I wonder; why does being honorable seem to imply also being unintelligent or weak?



I reckon it means more naive and strong-willed, in a sense. Ned's in no way unintelligent, but he seemed naive to believe that Cersei would just up and go.



> Why could not Ned or his sons be honorable, but also be sufficiently strong and/or clever to ensure that their decision to be honorable would not have any negative consequences?



Lannisters/Frey/Bolton's were more clever using dirty tricks, like slaying a guest under ones roof.


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## Rios (Jul 29, 2013)

Its like you are a boxer with your gloves and everything trying to fight by the rules a guy, who is tripping you, gouging your eyes out, biting your throat, etc. It doesnt matter how intelligently you fight, you are at an obvious disadvantage because the array of your moves is way too slim and you are very predictable.


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## Nic (Jul 29, 2013)

Rios said:


> I still believe the Ironborn will take one dragon. Otherwise its just too predictable.


meh GRMM had an entire interview when the GOT started about how people on the internet had already figured out his entire plot and he wasn't changing shit because of it. I mean yeah it's predictable, but GRMM loves giving clues and the fact all three sacrificed their mothers in childbirth was one of the biggest.

that's one of the reasons why I laugh when hardcore fans of the series claim this series is unpredictable because of all the deaths when that's really not the case at all.


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## Rios (Jul 29, 2013)

Oh the series are predictable, dont get me wrong. I roll my eyes every time a member of this power trio gets in danger. Tyrion escaped death how many times now? 10? And literally nobody believes the Jon stabbing means he is dead.

but

If thats the case this means the 4th book is a total waste because it didnt give us the POV of any significant character. You think it'll go down like that?


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 29, 2013)

Rios said:


> Its like you are a boxer with your gloves and everything trying to fight by the rules a guy, who is tripping you, gouging your eyes out, biting your throat, etc. It doesnt matter how intelligently you fight, you are at an obvious disadvantage because the array of your moves is way too slim and you are very predictable.



Yes, I can understand that, but, in such a case, the only way to win would be to also use such tactics as biting, clawing, and so forth, which would then mean that the two combatants would be no different from each other, and that the victor would be not the most honorable person, but simply the strongest and/or most skilled person, which is not an outcome that I would desire very much. If one side of a competition or conflict does not take the moral high ground, what point is there in even fighting, at all?



Rios said:


> Oh the series are predictable, dont get me wrong. I roll my eyes every time a member of this power trio gets in danger. Tyrion escaped death how many times now? 10? And literally nobody believes the Jon stabbing means he is dead.



I would not say that this series is predictable, at least not constantly; I was not terribly surprised that Ned died, as I expected that his death would be a major turning point of the series (although I was surprised, and very displeased, that he did not face his death proud and defiant, and use his last breath to denounce Joffrey, which is definitely what I would have done if I have been in his situation), but I was very surprised, and emotionally struck, when Robb died, as I had been expecting him to be the main hero of the story, or at least one of the main heroes of the story. I also did not expect Joffrey to die so early in the story, either, as I was expecting him to become one of its most major antagonists; I had been hoping that a member of House Stark would kill him in single combat, so I was very surprised and displeased when that did not occur.

Also, at this moment, I am still waiting for the members of House Frey to suffer some form of karmic punishment for their betrayal of the Starks, and I will be very displeased if they do not receive comeuppance of some form, and thus literally get away with murder.


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## Rios (Jul 29, 2013)

You take the moral high ground only when there are enough people, who accept your values as their values. The whole point is to make the people, who play dirty, the minority and eventually make them pay for their underhanded tactics. Ned was brilliant in the North, in Kings Landing he was a fish out of water. It was not his fault the court was corrupt. Its also not Robb's fault the Frey and Boltons were corrupt. He didnt have time to get to know them more intimately.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jul 29, 2013)

Rios said:


> You take the moral high ground only when there are enough people, who accept your values as their values. The whole point is to make the people, who play dirty, the minority and eventually make them pay for their underhanded tactics. Ned was brilliant in the North, in Kings Landing he was a fish out of water. It was not his fault the court was corrupt. Its also not Robb's fault the Frey and Boltons were corrupt. He didnt have time to get to know them more intimately.



Yes, that is true, but it is very unfortunate that Ned and Robb paid for their mistakes with their lives, which means that they cannot learn from those mistakes, although other may be able to do so; for example, I am very certain that no one shall ever be able to trust the Freys again, not even their own allies, the Lannisters and Boltons, for fear of the same betrayal. House Frey's reputation among the houses of Westeros is forever tarnished by their actions at the Red Wedding.


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## crazymtf (Jul 31, 2013)

Well it kind of shows how life is. Usually the bad ones, or the cheats, or the assholes, make it further. Once in awhile the ones who work hard, try their best, and are honestly good people, make it. Just how it is.


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## Amrun (Jul 31, 2013)

Rios said:


> You take the moral high ground only when there are enough people, who accept your values as their values. The whole point is to make the people, who play dirty, the minority and eventually make them pay for their underhanded tactics. Ned was brilliant in the North, in Kings Landing he was a fish out of water. It was not his fault the court was corrupt. Its also not Robb's fault the Frey and Boltons were corrupt. He didnt have time to get to know them more intimately.



Actually think it was at least half of Robb's own fault he died, for breaking the marriage contract, which was dishonorable -- a final irony.


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## Rios (Aug 1, 2013)

Of course it was partly his fault. He lost the North by sending Theon back. His marriage gave the Frey the excuse they needed to strike. Executing one of his closest lords was the final nail in the coffin losing a significant portion of his force and installing instability.

Does this excuse the Frey and Bolton for doing what they did? Not really, one of them is power hungry, the other is even worse - a disproportionate retribution grudge holder.


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## Amrun (Aug 5, 2013)

I didn't say it excused them.  They're humongous bags of dicks; everyone knows that.  What I'm saying is that it's ironic that one of the main proponents that lost him the North was dishonor -- and while we're at it, the other(s) were honor, especially Karstark.


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## Rios (Aug 7, 2013)

Honor is a very iffy term because so many traitors were forgiven, from Balon Greyjoy to the Kingslayer. Funny thing is Ned was part of the forces, who crushed the Ironborn and was the first man to see the Kingslayer, yet seemingly didnt make enough hassle to try to make them pay for their crimes the way Robb made Karstark pay for his.

Maybe Robb's interpretation of honor was wrong from the start and Ned didnt teach him well.


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## Nic (Aug 12, 2013)

to sum up my predictions, some of which i have already mentioned but into one here -

I think ultimately Jon will sit the iron throne in the end unless it is destroyed.  It makes too much sense in the end and it seems like the story is progressing exactly in a way for this to happen.  Even in the first chapters of book 1 he tells Arya when she's going to King's landing that sometimes different paths lead to the same castle.  We also have the irony of ravens calling him king out of nowhere in front of mormont as in the king in hiding which is actually the case considering he's the child of rhaeggar targaryen who i'm sure married lyanna.  This would make him the true targaryen heir, which would explain why the kingsguard were there protecting jon.  

 Jon whether through inheritance of Robb's will or when it's known that he's a legitimate stark will gain the support of the North.  Sansa is about to get her hands on the vale so you know she'd support Jon as well.  Jon being a targaryen would have the loyalty of Dorne who have always been by the targaryen side.  The lannisters are about to get wiped out. We already know Cersei and her children will die due to her prophecy.  We also can conclude that Tyrion is going to inherit Casterly rock.  Tyrion and Jon are on good terms ironically.  Jon would also have the support of the Riverlands, and i think we all know the Freys aren't lasting to the end.  Finally we also have the greyjoys where Euron will eventually be defeated with either Asha or Theon leading them.  In the end it's all nicely set-up for the prince that was promised. 

Varys to me seems to be working for the Children of the forest.  There's just too many references to his orphaned children spies and his last comment while killing kevan lannisters and saying he's doing it for the children.  My guess is the the COTF are split somewhere beyond the wall with some working for the human side as in bloodraven and now bran while the others through their warging powers are taking control of the dead bodies.  It would also explain why varys seems in support of keeping cersei on the throne and spreading the chaos while limiting the support to the wall to fight back against the others. 

as for Dany, i honestly thought at first that she was going to be one of the main heroes of the story and maybe she will still be, but the more the plot has progressed the more clues seems to have been given that she isn't necessarily all that pure of heart and might have an inclination of going mad.  Even Aerys was said not have been mad at first.  It doesn't help either she's done such things as putting on crosses the 163 slave owners along the road.  Also makes sense that if there's a second dance of dragons like GRMM says there will be that she'd fight two dragons considering she has the biggest oneand there's plenty enough foreshadowing that the other dragon riders are none other than Tyrion and Jon. 

As for the Boltons well they are screwed.  Lady Dustin now knows that Manderly told the truth about the swords missing from the crypts and that the stark boys are still alive.  They are just waiting to backstab Roose and the fact he just sent 2000 freys who are his allies out to the battlefield away from the WF doesn't help his cause whatsoever. 


Rios said:


> I still believe the Ironborn will take one dragon. Otherwise its just too predictable.



well the ultimate end is those three being the riders.  Victarion will probably try to take one like Martell.  Having said that, GOT is fairly predictable despite what people try and tell us.


----------



## Rios (Aug 14, 2013)

Instead of predicting what will happen I will say what I want to happen. Predictions be damned.

Jon: I find him boring unfortunately. Way too much of a good fantasy hero archetype, especially the way he climbed up the ranks in The Night's Watch. What I want to happen with him is for him to get saved by the Others and become their leader. It will IMO tie in wonderfully with the Ice and Fire concept making humans the driving forces on both sides.

Dany: Free for all dragon carnage against Westeros and everyone, who lives there. I can see her snapping, having enough of this shit and just going on a glorious rampage. 

Sansa: The ruler of Winterfell. Honestly fuck the Vale, the only way I can see her ruling it is by killing her husband Harry whatever. Not liking this.

Varys: He will attempt to rule Westeros through a false Aegon aka the Mummer's Dragon. I can see him being the same as Littlefinger, but unlike Littlefinger operating from the shadows and deceiving everyone instead of being constantly the center of attention.

Ironborn: They take one dragon temporarily and maybe sail north. Then Bran or Jon warg into the dragon and take it away.

Boltons: are fucked. No questions there.


----------



## God (Aug 16, 2013)

Tyrion is landing in the vale with dany

Dany first needs to conquer westeros before the others strike so that jon can be ready to fight the others with her death

So anyways she lands in the vale and boom! A lannister always pays his debt. He owes littlefinger debt for framing him (in the vale, at that) and now for stealing away his wife who is still under his cloak of protection.

Awwww yeahhhhh


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Sep 4, 2013)

Please refresh my memory: why does Cersei still need to undergo trial by combat? Was not being dragged through the city naked sufficient punishment for her crimes?


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Sep 11, 2013)

So, finally finished _A Dance With Dragons_. I'm distraught about the deaths, as always, or at least the near-misses, but definitely excited for all of these smaller battles and skirmishes coming to a point of boiling over. Still not a fan of Theon, but then, I never was and his torture only left me shrugging; interesting that he met up with his sister again, solidifying the role of the Ironborn, who I also am lukewarm about in general aside from Asha. Cersei's evil, but I'm wondering if she will get to play a role in anything else, and Margarey seems to have been pushed off as well. 

Arya, Jon, and Dany are the continuations I am looking forward to; oh, and Tyrion, but who isn't? I'm also curious about the ramifications of Quentyn's death. @Nic, I like your ideas about Dany possibly spiraling into madness, and I wonder if we'll get to see that struggle internally. 

I'm sure someone has asked this, but ... um, Rickon? 

I am basically so let down with Bran's storyline, I could cry.


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## Special Agent Sugar (Oct 28, 2013)

just wanted to post this for anyone wondering: i just got my paperback copy from wal mart earlier today ( they got theirs a day earlier than book stores,& i own the hard back version, i just wanted the paperback for the winds of winter preview chapter & for easier reading when i reread the series) & the winds of winter preview chapter is a ser barristan chapter. well, i don't tthink it's actually a whole chapter cuz it's only 8 or 9 pages.


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## Galo de Lion (Nov 8, 2013)

Finished the first 3. I own A Feast For Crows and mean to read it soon.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 13, 2013)

so, who read this already ?


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## Fierce (Dec 13, 2013)

Several days ago. Was cool. Most interesting thing I took from it was the 3 unaccounted for dragons at the end.


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## Galo de Lion (Dec 13, 2013)

Anyone read the Armageddon Rag? It's by George R. R. Martin, but it's a completly different story.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 14, 2013)

Fierce said:


> Several days ago. Was cool. Most interesting thing I took from it was the 3 unaccounted for dragons at the end.


hmm, those are :

- Cannibal, the wild one
- Sheepstealer (used to be wild) - that girl Nettles' dragon
- Silverwing

right ?


----------



## Fierce (Dec 14, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> hmm, those are :
> 
> - Cannibal, the wild one
> - Sheepstealer (used to be wild) - that girl Nettles' dragon
> ...



Yes sir. Can't help but wonder what became of them.


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## Galo de Lion (Jan 18, 2014)

Cercei was bad enough *without* having to read from her persective...


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## CopyNinja93 (Jan 18, 2014)

Personally I thought that Cersei's chapters were some of the most entertaining I've read. She's just so delusional and you don't even need to see other character's perspectives of her actions to tell how stupid they are. 

Probably my favourite POV in AFFC at least, other than maybe Jaime.


----------



## Didi (Jan 21, 2014)

Nic said:


> We also have the irony of ravens calling him king out of nowhere



>out of nowhere

Nah, it's just Bloodraven messing with him. What would you do if you were a tree with loads of free time and control over talking ravens? 


As for Dany, I can't wait until she goes mad and orders to burn all of King's Landing because it contains her enemies, the usurper dogs etc, something like that, and then Barristan finally understands why Jaime did what he did, and kills the Mad Queen.
It would be like poetry, and I hope that GRRM makes it happen.


----------



## Naruto Uzumaki (Feb 9, 2014)

GRRM UK publisher says next book is years away


----------



## crazymtf (Feb 9, 2014)

Lol the show will catch up and probably have a better ending at this rate.


----------



## FitzChivalry (Feb 9, 2014)

I'll be gray in the beard by the time the next one comes out. My children, which don't exist, will be in college at that point, starting families of their own.


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## Fruit Monger (Feb 9, 2014)

Seems like one joke comment, followed up by another.  

I wouldn't take it seriously.


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## Fierce (Feb 10, 2014)

crazymtf said:


> Lol the show will catch up and probably have a better ending at this rate.



Even no ending is better than any ending the show comes up with for itself.


----------



## Didi (Feb 16, 2014)

>trusting shit gurm says about when the book will be released


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## Kikyo (Feb 16, 2014)

Fierce said:


> Even no ending is better than any ending the show comes up with for itself.



GRRM has long since told the show producers how he wants SoIaF books to end. Even if he dies before the show does, it's likely there will still be an ending he would have approved of.


----------



## Marcο (Feb 16, 2014)

So the show could end up spoiling the book readers?

That would be terrible.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 16, 2014)

if he dies we are ressing his as wight so he can continue writing


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 16, 2014)

I am certain that Martin would not leave his story unresolved, if he were to die before he could finish it; that would simply be too cruel and harsh to his readers. While I do hope that he can finish this series while he is still alive, I would like to believe that he would have another author complete the series from his notes and manuscripts, as Robert Jordan did with Brandon Sanderson.


----------



## Kikyo (Feb 16, 2014)

Marcο said:


> So the show could end up spoiling the book readers?
> 
> That would be terrible.


Possible but not necessarily so. The tv series has diverged from the books a great deal and continues to diverge as each book is adapted.  GRRM is highly involved in the series too, so an ending that he would approve of doesn't necessarily mean the same ending in the books. Though I would assume that the same people die/live and end up where he wants them to be in the end. But the journeys are already different.



DemonDragonJ said:


> I am certain that Martin would not leave his story unresolved, if he were to die before he could finish it; that would simply be too cruel and harsh to his readers. While I do hope that he can finish this series while he is still alive, I would like to believe that he would have another author complete the series from his notes and manuscripts, as Robert Jordan did with Brandon Sanderson.



That is very likely. Since he already knows where things will end, it's just details in between right?


----------



## Fierce (Feb 16, 2014)

I love when people say GRRM is "highly involved in the series," because it's so far from the truth. He writes one episode per season. That's his only remarkable contribution to the show (outside of the source material). 

As for him dying, he said years ago that should that happen before he completes the story, it's in his will that it's forbidden for anyone else to finish it for him. 

The only information I'm aware of regarding the producers knowledge of the end game is that GRRM has given them the "broad strokes." I have no idea what that entails, but I'd be surprised if they know a whole lot more than the average informed fan. I sincerely doubt he would equip them with the ability to spoil the books should he not keep ahead of the show, which is likely.


----------



## Cyphon (Mar 5, 2014)

Would someone compile a list of all of the material outside of the main books that can be read at this point?

I know I have asked before but it is my understanding something new has come out or is coming out and I want to make sure I have read everything. 

I don't care if you just give me names of it all or places to actually read/download/find it. If they are available to buy I would like to purchase them all.


----------



## CopyNinja93 (Mar 6, 2014)

Outside of the main five novels there is:

- Dunk and Egg novellas (The Hedge Knight, The Sworn Sword and The Mystery Knight). You get these from several anthologies (Legends I, Legends II and Warriors I respectively) and I think at least the first two can be bought in graphic novel form. 
- The Princess and the Queen, another novella but not directly related to the above three. Available in the Dangerous Women anthology. 
- There's a map book called Lands of Ice and Fire but as far as I know there isn't really anything new in it.
- There's a few Winds of Winter excerpts out there. There's an Arianne chapter here:  There's a Theon chapter in the ADWD paperbacks (at least there is in mine). There's a Barristan chapter floating around out there and a Tyrion chapter too I think, though they might only be fan summaries from readings he did at cons. I don't really know where exactly you can read those so you'd probably have to look them up. Later this month there's an ASOIAF app being released which will have a full Tyrion chapter included with it.
- Also later this year there's a World of Ice and Fire being released which will contain a lot more information about the world.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 6, 2014)

Here


----------



## Galo de Lion (Mar 7, 2014)

Onto A Dance With Dragons. Tyrion just saw a giant turtle.


----------



## CopyNinja93 (Mar 16, 2014)

Anyone see the Vanity Fair interview with GRRM? Makes me pretty nervous: http://www.vanityfair.com/vf-hollywood/george-r-r-martin-interview?mbid=social_fbshare

In particular the part where he seems to think that AFFC/ADWD will end up being three seasons, but the showrunners said that they want 7 seasons to tell the whole thing, meaning that'll probably only end up being one season for both of them (especially considering a number of characters are moving on to their material from those books in this upcoming season). 

It seems more than likely now that the show will overtake the books at this point and show the ending first, which would suck. Reading the last book won't be the same knowing the resolution of the main plot points.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Mar 16, 2014)

I may have asked this before, but why did Martin choose to bring back Catelyn after the Red Wedding, rather than Robb, who would have been the more obvious choice, since he was a traditional fantasy hero, a leader and ruler, a person around whom the northerners could rally? Did he chose choose Catelyn because Robb would have been too predictable and cliche?


----------



## FitzChivalry (Mar 16, 2014)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I may have asked this before, but why did Martin choose to bring back Catelyn after the Red Wedding, rather than Robb, who would have been the more obvious choice, since he was a traditional fantasy hero, a leader and ruler, a person around whom the northerners could rally? *Did he chose choose Catelyn because Robb would have been too predictable and cliche?*



Likely a huge motivating factor. Martin loves taking common fantasy tropes and turning them on their head. Revels in it. Hence why major heroes, leaders, and rulers like Ned and Robb get publicly executed and brutally murdered. Can't speak to his reasons and motivations until we see more of Catelyn and her story comes to a close.


----------



## Kikyo (Mar 16, 2014)

He's said that he does take traditional cliches and thinks what would break that completely? And does that. 

I don't think there's any danger in seeing the ending on HBO before the books come out unless GRRM actually dies first. And even then, he's just as likely to change a lot of details, even if the general outlines remain the same.


----------



## Darth Niggatron (Mar 17, 2014)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I may have asked this before, but why did Martin choose to bring back Catelyn after the Red Wedding, rather than Robb, who would have been the more obvious choice, since he was a traditional fantasy hero, a leader and ruler, a person around whom the northerners could rally? Did he chose choose Catelyn because Robb would have been too predictable and cliche?



That's just Martin taking a piss on the Fantasy genre.


----------



## Kikyo (Mar 17, 2014)

GRRM had a plan to keep the show from catching up to the books if only the producers agree with him!


----------



## hcheng02 (Mar 18, 2014)

Amrun said:


> What I mean is, SHOWING more of her sympathetic side obviously facilitates a change in perception of her character -- but it doesn't actually CONTRADICT anything in the books, which vagnard implies it does.
> 
> And her softer side was always, always implied in the books as well -- we just didn't get pet the dog scenes for her.



Well actually, the show does change a few things about Cersei's actions which make her less cruel. For example, in the show the son she had from Robert died from a fever and she was clearly saddened by the event seeing as how emotional when recounting it to Catelyn after Bran's fall. In the book, she secretly had Robert's son aborted out of spite. Also, in the books she was the one who ordered Robert's bastards to be killed off and also ordered the Kingsguard to kill Tyrion during the Battle of Blackwater, whereas in the show its Joffrey who does that. Also, as vagnard said she is a bit more respectful towards Tyrion in the show. The book Cersei would never tell Tyrion that he did a good job during Blackwater or that she thinks Joffrey is a monster. All in all, Cersei in the show is a bit less cruel than in the book. 

But then again Cersei doesn't really go full retard/insane until Joffrey's death and she takes control of the realm.


----------



## corsair (Mar 27, 2014)

For anyone interested, there is a new preview chapter up now.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Mar 27, 2014)

corsair said:


> For anyone interested, there is a new preview chapter up now.




*Spoiler*: __ 



_Valar morghulis_


----------



## hcheng02 (Mar 29, 2014)

Fuck yeah, more Arya. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Still, I wonder what the heck the Faceless Men are going to do about this though. Arya's broken the rule against self motivated killing twice now. I wonder if she's going to be kicked out or something.


----------



## Megaharrison (Apr 6, 2014)

Found this guy who draws comics of famous ASOIAF scenes. Some of them are epic:


----------



## santanico (Apr 30, 2014)

those illustrations were lovely


----------



## dream (Apr 30, 2014)

They really were.  Really want to know the fully story of what down at the Tower of Joy regarding Lyanna.


----------



## Scholzee (May 11, 2014)

Very nice comics, it will be interesting now to see it in the show


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## random user (May 12, 2014)

Top notch illustrations, got the scenes really well. Would be cool if there was an entire comic.


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (May 13, 2014)

Oh snap! We finally learned who Neds mother was. Kind of a letdown but still pretty cool.


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## Fruit Monger (May 13, 2014)

In reference to the comment above (#670)


----------



## Jagger (May 17, 2014)

So I'm just finishing A Storm of Swords and I must say this is probably the book where everyone decided to die. 

I'm still salty about Oberyn's death. I was starting to like him...


----------



## Banhammer (May 17, 2014)

I sure as fuck am not going to pick up Winds of Winter, someone spoil me the spoilers please


----------



## Naruto Uzumaki (May 17, 2014)

We not picking it up neither because it will never come out


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## Special Agent Sugar (May 20, 2014)

Naruto Uzumaki said:


> We not picking it up neither because it will never come out



yep, & the same for a dream of spring as far as i'm concerned.


----------



## Psychic (May 21, 2014)

Lightbringer predictions :


*Spoiler*: __ 



Anyone else think that Jon has to put the sword through Daenarys' heart to create the red flame?


----------



## Scholzee (May 23, 2014)

Fruit Monger said:


> In reference to the comment above (#670)



Thanks for the link!, it's intresting.


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## parceque (May 24, 2014)

I finished the first book yesterday and I loved it. It's been a long time since I've been captured like this by a book series. 
My only problem is that I already spoiled myself with events from the fifth book... I'm weak. 
Reading a story knowing characters are going to die soon is pretty hard.


----------



## Naruto Uzumaki (May 24, 2014)

i wish i could of read the books without being spoiled also


----------



## Didi (May 29, 2014)

Only spoiler I had was that Walder Frey would betray Robb at some point

I didn't know how and what matter of betrayal tho

so him just killing Robb outright plus all the others was still a good WOAH moment


----------



## Darth Niggatron (May 29, 2014)

I never really wanted that, tbh. Melisandre in GoT is a hot and all, but in the books she kinda reads like a middle aged woman.


----------



## Galo de Lion (Jun 5, 2014)

Finished A Dance With Dragons. Finally up to date. Except those Egg Knight stories...


----------



## Extravlad (Jun 6, 2014)

ADWD spoilers


*Spoiler*: __ 



I'm the only one tired of the Jon Snow/Daenerys theories? I mean he doesn't even know her and she's most likely his aunt.
If Jon Snow is Azor Ahai then his Nissa Nissa should be Melisandre or Val, not a princess he does not even know.


----------



## FitzChivalry (Jun 7, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> ADWD spoilers
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yeah, I stopped believing in that theory years ago. It just stopped fitting, and the more you got to know Jon, the more you were certain he would never engage in that kind of thing. Frankly, I think his lady will be Val. Jon's uniquely situated to unite both the North in Westeros, and the wildlings. He has strong Stark blood and looks, which will inspire northern lords, and a union with Val shores up the support from the free folk, a group of people with which Jon is intimately familiar. It fits more than Jon fucking Daenerys is any way. Eventually, they'll meet, and that should be cool, and maybe they'll join forces against the real threat up north.


----------



## tari101190 (Jun 11, 2014)

Is this information correct?

Aerys Targaryen II died and Robert Baretheon succeeded him until he died and Joffrey succeeded him and Joffery died and Tommen succeeded him.

But Stannis is rightfully next in line for the Iron Throne because he is Robert’s brother.

Joffrey and Tommen are not rightful heir’s because they are Jamie’s sons, not Robert’s.

Melisandre support’s Stannis because he has Baretheon King’s blood.

Gendry is Robert’s son and so also has King’s Blood.

Only those with King’s Blood can rightfully rule over Westeros.

To have King’s Blood means you are of Targaryen descent.

A Targaryen married into the Baretheon’s family ages ago.

Daenerys claims the Iron Throne because she is the ‘last’ pure Targaryan and child of Aerys II.

Targaryan’s are the last surviving House of Valyrian Dragonlords.

Valyria was destroyed by multiple volcanic eruptions ages ago.

The Valyrian Dragonlords were ‘magic dragon people’ who had learnt to tame dragons through ‘dragon magic’ ages ago.

The Targaryan’s were the weakest of all the Dragonlords.

Targaryen’s became the rulers of Westeros because they conquered with their Dragons ages ago.

There is a prophecy that a ‘dragon prince’ will be born among ‘smoke & salt’ and save the world.

And another prophecy abut a saviour wielding a fire sword.

And there is a connected prophecy about a three dragons rising?

Daenerys can be the dragon prince because she is a Targaryen, and Dragon’s don’t have genders, and she was reborn in fire while crying over her husbands death. And her three dragons serve as a fire sword of sorts.

(*Also burning bodies with the dragon eggs may have also been an accidental blood magic ritual which resurfaced dragons & magic into world.)

Jon Snow may be the son of Rhaegar Targaryen & Lyanna Stark. And fulfils the fire sword prophecy.

I'm not too bothered about the Aegon stuff for now.


----------



## Darth Niggatron (Jun 11, 2014)

Basically, yes.
The Targaryens are the weakest Valyrian house?
And there's no dragon prince. There's only Azor Ahai and The Prince That Was Promised. Two different people. Jon is the former, Danaerys is the latter.


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## tari101190 (Jun 11, 2014)

> The Targaryens are the weakest Valyrian house?


I thought they were just a minor house among the Dragonlord Houses and they were just simply the last surviving of them.



> And there's no dragon prince. There's only Azor Ahai and The Prince That Was Promised. Two different people. Jon is the former, Danaerys is the latter.


Okay Thanks.

And what is Jon's fire sword?

What is the significance of this line? - "The dragon has three heads"


----------



## Fruit Monger (Jun 11, 2014)

> "Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."



I'm with this guy


----------



## Extravlad (Jun 11, 2014)

> There's only Azor Ahai and The Prince That Was Promised. Two different people. Jon is the former, Danaerys is the latter.


Not at all, they are the same person according to Melisandre.
And Jon Snow is Azor Ahai/The prince that was promised, Daenerys has nothing to do with that.


----------



## tari101190 (Jun 11, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Not at all, they are the same person according to Melisandre.
> And Jon Snow is Azor Ahai/The prince that was promised, Daenerys has nothing to do with that.


I'm pretty sure it's been set up this way so that there is no definitive answer.

Daenerys has been set up to full-fill every part of the prince prophecy to specifically to thwart the idea the it's definitely just someone else for us and in universe or whatever.

She was reborn in fire while crying over her husbands death. That full-fills the birth among smoke and salt.

That comet went overhead as she was reborn too.

And Dragons don't have set genders, so she can be the dragon prince. She already is literally is a dragon princess daughter of a dragon king.


----------



## Extravlad (Jun 11, 2014)

Rhaegar called Aegon the prince that was promised.
If he was wrong then Jon is the obvious choice, I mean Rhaegar left his family for Lyanna and Jon is probably their child.



Jon is by far the most likely there.


----------



## tari101190 (Jun 11, 2014)

I don't think anyone thinks Jon is not the guy. I'm just saying Daenerys fits the prophecy perfectly as well. That's probably a part of why her character even exists.

But anyway I wanted some info about Jon and why he fits. I'm guessing the salt was Lyanna's tears? How was Jon born in smoke? Was there a fire?

Also what is Jon's fire sword?


----------



## Fierce (Jun 11, 2014)

What about the Last Hero?!


----------



## Darth Niggatron (Jun 12, 2014)

Well, Aemon, was it, pretty much confirmed that Dany is The Prince That Was Promised. Nothing solid since this is Martin we're talking about, so yea.
The Prince That Was Promised is the one with Targaryen dragon shit.

Now, Azor Ahai, on the other hand, is the one who has to fight the Others. Which is obviously Jon.
Of course, Martin gives us a twist in the form of the elemental significance of Jon/Dany, but that's just him trolling.

The Last Hero, IMHO, is probably Bran. He seems to fit it to an awful extent.

Jon's fire sword is Longclaw. Valyrian steel is also called Obsidian/Dragon glass. Dragon glass is metal forged with the breath of a dragon.



tari101190 said:


> But anyway I wanted some info about Jon and why he fits. I'm guessing the salt was Lyanna's tears? How was Jon born in smoke? Was there a fire?
> 
> Also what is Jon's fire sword?



Nah. Azor Ahai is going to be 'reborn'. That fits Jon's mauling at the end of ADWD. The guy who stabs him does so while crying(salt), and steam/smoke is seen to be coming out from Jon's wounds.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 12, 2014)

I have heard that, if the television adaptation of this series catches up to the books, Martin himself shall reveal story details to the writers of the series, so that they can continue it. That seems to be extremely unfair to people who are reading the books only, and not following the television series, such as myself. Why should the television viewers get a special treat, when the book readers must suffer an agonizingly long wait for the next book? When a Japanese animated series adapted from a manga reaches the same place in the story as its source material, it either takes a hiatus or has a filler arc, to give the manga more time to advance its story. I imagine that a filler arc is not an option for this series, but I see no reason why the television series cannot take a hiatus until the next book is complete. What does everyone else say about this?


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## Darth Niggatron (Jun 12, 2014)

Filler arcs are possible. The last Jon arc in GoT was filler.


----------



## crazymtf (Jun 12, 2014)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I have heard that, if the television adaptation of this series catches up to the books, Martin himself shall reveal story details to the writers of the series, so that they can continue it. That seems to be extremely unfair to people who are reading the books only, and not following the television series, such as myself. Why should the television viewers get a special treat, when the book readers must suffer an agonizingly long wait for the next book? When a Japanese animated series adapted from a manga reaches the same place in the story as its source material, it either takes a hiatus or has a filler arc, to give the manga more time to advance its story. I imagine that a filler arc is not an option for this series, but I see no reason why the television series cannot take a hiatus until the next book is complete. What does everyone else say about this?



Blame the author for being so slow. The TV show is arguably more popular than the book series now days so it's only fair they continue if the creator wants to move at a snail's pace.


----------



## tari101190 (Jun 12, 2014)

I don't know if it will catch up.

They both may reach the last book at at the same time though.

Any number of season between 5 to 8 could just cover books 4 & 5, just showing everything in proper order unlike how the books did it.

So that is another 2 to 4 years just covering two books if they split up the books into multiple seasons on top or mixing up the order of those two books.


----------



## FitzChivalry (Jun 12, 2014)

That's wishful thinking. Show's streamlining the whole book series, cutting all filler and fat. We've already jumped to books 6 or 7 when we saw the white walkers (or the Others, to us) take that infant and transform him into one of their own kind. Part of me fears more of that, and we'll likely get more and more of that as the series progresses in the TV medium. Reportedly GRRM isn't happy about it, but it's kind of his fault, so...


----------



## Fruit Monger (Jun 12, 2014)

> "extremely unfair" - "special treat" - "Japanese animated series"



Not sure if trolling or not, but this has got to be one of the funniest posts I've read all week.  

Kudos.


----------



## Extravlad (Jun 13, 2014)

Damn the shitty show is gonna cut Val


----------



## Darth Niggatron (Jun 13, 2014)

That's awful. I liked Val.


----------



## FitzChivalry (Jun 13, 2014)

Cutting Val hasn't been confirmed yet, though that would suck. I feel she has some big part to play in the story up north. With Jon.


----------



## Extravlad (Jun 14, 2014)

Don't need to go to Serbia to nandrolone corticosteroids and hgh

Interesting stuff.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jun 14, 2014)

Fruit Monger said:


> Not sure if trolling or not, but this has got to be one of the funniest posts I've read all week.



I never troll; I sincerely believe everything that I post, and while I did not intend for my previous post to be humorous, I thank you for your compliment.


----------



## Darth Niggatron (Jun 15, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Don't need to go to Serbia to nandrolone corticosteroids and hgh
> 
> Interesting stuff.





> Can we stop with all the prophetic names and just call him...Jon


This. This. This.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 15, 2014)

Fruit Monger said:


> Not sure if trolling or not, but this has got to be one of the funniest posts I've read all week.
> 
> Kudos.



nah that's actually how he talks


----------



## Extravlad (Jun 15, 2014)

This is true.
In fact the writers of the series already know the end of ASOIAF.


----------



## Darth Niggatron (Jun 19, 2014)

Don't need to go to Serbia to nandrolone corticosteroids and hgh
>This entire bloody thread.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Jun 22, 2014)

> History of Westeros’ account of GRRM’s reading at ConCarolinas 2014.  He read for one hour from the upcoming World of Ice and Fire, and we took notes furiously.
> 
> History of the Westerlands (not complete, the hour got us from the Dawn Age to Ser Tywin, heir to Casterly Rock and fresh from exterminating the Reynes and Tarbecks).







Just a detailed summary really, but still a must read!

Tywin vs Reynes and Tarbecks is excellent.


----------



## Jagger (Jun 29, 2014)

I guess Tytos' weak rule left a considerable impact on Tywin's behaviour.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 29, 2014)

so someone spoil me winds of winter so I can decide wether or not I'll skip on reading it


----------



## Jagger (Jun 29, 2014)

Megaharrison said:


> The TV show is fine, and the new content is more or less adding to the story instead of detracting. The only original content issues have been Ros (and thats been wrapped up...) and dragging out Theon's torture with Ramsay.
> 
> Some show decisions I agree with over book decisions, such as replacing Edric Storm with Gendry. It puts a more established character you've come to sympathize with into Edric's plight, making his situation more dramatic. And the meeting between Beric/Thoros/Arya and Melisandre was a nice touch. I wish GRRM had included those.


I agree. I personally loved Tywin's conversations with Arya.

In the books, he's far more strict. I still love his character (he was a piece of shit regarding Tysha, though), but I liked the nice addition.



Banhammer said:


> so someone spoil me winds of winter so I can decide wether or not I'll skip on reading it


Davos dies. Cersei dies. Jaime dies. Dany dies. Jorah dies. Rickon dies. Sansa dies. Catelyn dies, again. Tyrion dies. Qyburn dies. Robert Strong dies. Arya dies. Jaqen dies. Jon dies, again. Tommen dies. Victarion dies. Euron dies. Edric Storm dies. Brienne dies. Damphair dies. Asha dies. Stannis lives. Samwell lives. Aegon dies. Littlefinger dies without banging Sansa. Varys dies. 

There.


----------



## Kikyo (Jun 29, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Davos dies. Cersei dies. Jaime dies. Dany dies. Jorah dies. Rickon dies. Sansa dies. Catelyn dies, again. Tyrion dies. Qyburn dies. Robert Strong dies. Arya dies. Jaqen dies. Jon dies, again. Tommen dies. Victarion dies. Euron dies. Edric Storm dies. Brienne dies. Damphair dies. Asha dies. Stannis lives. Samwell lives. Aegon dies. Littlefinger dies without banging Sansa. Varys dies.
> 
> There.



LOL. 
GRRM said that his wife loves Arya, so she's not likely to die at all in any of the books.


----------



## Jagger (Jun 29, 2014)

>Implying he would actually care for his wife's feelings. 

He probably tortures her every time she advices him to eat properly.


----------



## Kikyo (Jun 29, 2014)

happy wife, happy life   He writes that a lot in this series you know... at least before everything goes to hell after page 5 of the first book. lol


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 30, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Varys dies.


There are some things that should never be joked about.


----------



## Darth Niggatron (Jun 30, 2014)

Jagger said:


> >Implying he would actually care for his wife's feelings.
> 
> He probably tortures her every time she advices him to eat properly.



"Georgie, you have to eat your veggies."
"B-but I don't wanna!"
"Now, now, Georgie, you wouldn't want your readers to burn down this house if you die before finishing ASoIaF now, would you?"
"Burn?"
Maniac glint appears in George Martin's eyes.
"My hoUSE!?"
Ten minutes later. George Martin's wife is crying in the closet.
"M-my name i-is Reek. It rh-hymes with Freak."


----------



## Naruto Uzumaki (Jul 18, 2014)

R+L= J

Is basically real at this point


----------



## Darth Niggatron (Jul 19, 2014)

Just a theory.
I think we all know it's true anyway.


----------



## Torpedo Titz (Jul 19, 2014)

Could we name 50 theories more interesting than R+L=J?

I think we could, and we wouldn't need to get into tinfoil land, either.

I'll start. Euron bought his Faceless Man for Balon using the dragon egg he's rumoured to have tossed away.


----------



## Naruto Uzumaki (Jul 19, 2014)

R+L=J opens up many more possibilities honestly.


----------



## Darth Niggatron (Jul 19, 2014)

Not really, it doesn't.
It makes it look as if Jon has a legit shot at the Iron Throne...and he does.
Too bad we all know Martin is never going to let that happen.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Jul 26, 2014)

TWoW Spoiler from SDCC


*Spoiler*: __ 



The POV from _The Winds of Winter_ Prologue will be... 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Jeyne Westerling


----------



## Torpedo Titz (Jul 26, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Bollocks, I was hoping for Sandor.

It seems Jeyne is back at the Crag, which is a pity, as I believed she was at Casterly Rock with Edmure and his Frey wife. I know Martin has promised the Rock and Highgarden at some point in the story, so this could've been our chance.

Also, Jeyne isn't confirmed for POV, simply that she will appear in the prologue. The POV could be one of her family, or a guard or whatever.

And it seems every POV character eventually dies, so _no_, no Sandor.


----------



## uuugh (Jul 26, 2014)

Seeing spoilers every time feels me with hope that we're getting closer.

Hopefully 2016


----------



## Fruit Monger (Jul 26, 2014)

Jon Stark said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Good call.  I only saw the initial Tweet.  It seemed like she would be the POV, but this seems unlikely now.  

Is she at the Crag or simply on her way?  Last we saw, Jaime doubled the guard on group (Edmure and the Westerlings) traveling West.  Maybe the escort gets ambushed by Blackfish or the Brotherhood?

Also, when we do get the Rock (which I think will be by ADoS), I hope it's Tyrion.  From the preview of _The World of Ice and Fire_, Casterly Rock will be ridiculously awesome.


----------



## Torpedo Titz (Jul 26, 2014)

Fruit Monger said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



You're right, she's probably still on her way with Edmure and co. Her group departed Riverrun towards the end of Feast, and only a small period of time has lapsed since then.

It's as good a time as any for the Blackfish to reappear, but the Brotherhood is a much more interesting thought. What are the odds Jaime spilled the beans to Cat about the Westerling involvement in the Red Wedding? And if Jeyne's mother is POV, she'll _certainly_ die.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Jul 26, 2014)

Jon Stark said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yes, I think I'd prefer Blackfish reappearing in the Prologue over the Brotherhood.

IDK about Jaime snitching, IIRC Tywin's dealing was with Spicer not Westerling.  And I agree, Jeyne's mother needs to die.  Slowly.


----------



## Special Agent Sugar (Jul 30, 2014)

Fruit Monger said:


> TWoW Spoiler from SDCC
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



is this a joke or are u serious? i can't tell.


----------



## Jagger (Jul 30, 2014)

Apparently, the TV adaptation is going to remove Arianne.

What is this bullshit.


----------



## tari101190 (Aug 18, 2014)

Jon Snow returns from the depths of hell, confronts Danny, runs her through with his sword, and forges lightbringer from her firey soul.


----------



## Jagger (Aug 18, 2014)

Only to find out she wasn't the one he needed to murder.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Sep 4, 2014)

Gendry has been playing a fairly substantial supporting role, thus far, and I expect him to continue to do so, but why have Edric Storm and Mya Stone, Gendry's half-siblings who all share Robert Baratheon as their father, had so little importance to the story? Do they exist only to show that all of Robert's children have dark hair, as does he, and thus prove that Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen cannot be his children?


----------



## God (Sep 4, 2014)

Nymeria and her pack devour the Freys


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Sep 4, 2014)

Cubey said:


> Nymeria and her pack devour the Freys



I would very much like to see that; please have that happen, Martin!


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Sep 8, 2014)

Many elements of this story would not be considered politically-correct by today's standards (i.e., the fact that most of the societies are strongly patriarchal, the poor treatment of children born out of wedlock and short people, and the fact that many men expect there to be prostitutes awaiting to please them wherever they travel), so has Martin ever given an explanation for why he has such elements in his story?


----------



## Jagger (Sep 8, 2014)

Because it coincides with the medieval timeline?


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Sep 10, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Because it coincides with the medieval timeline?



Yes, but numerous other fantasy stories with medieval (or pseudo-medieval) settings written in recent years are much more politically-correct than this story, so I must wonder about Martin himself for having his story deliberately be politically-incorrect in this day and age.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Sep 10, 2014)

Jesus Christ, DDJ …


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Sep 10, 2014)

Fluttershy said:


> Jesus Christ, DDJ ?



Why are you saying that? What did I do, this time?


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 2, 2014)

So I finished up the audiobook of _The Hedge Knight_ today. Read it before and it is awesome stuff but I really want a copy of the original book. Being that even a used copy is 50+ I probably won't get it. So I have 2 questions to anyone who may know.

1. Will these stories be included in the encyclopedia book he has coming out?

2. Who would you go about asking or how would you go about finding out if those books will ever be reprinted or whatever? I know you can get the graphic novels but I would like the original format.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Oct 2, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> So I finished up the audiobook of _The Hedge Knight_ today. Read it before and it is awesome stuff but I really want a copy of the original book. Being that even a used copy is 50+ I probably won't get it. So I have 2 questions to anyone who may know.
> 
> 1. Will these stories be included in the encyclopedia book he has coming out?
> 
> 2. Who would you go about asking or how would you go about finding out if those books will ever be reprinted or whatever? I know you can get the graphic novels but I would like the original format.



1) I doubt the stories will be included in the upcoming _The World of Ice and Fire_, but I'm sure certain facts from _The Hedge Knight_ and other D&E stories will be in the upcoming encyclopedia book.

2) Best bet is Amazon and buying a used copy if you don't want to drop $50+.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Oct 27, 2014)

Excerpt from _The World of Ice and Fire_ which will be released tomorrow.




> *ROBERT'S REBELLION*
> 
> What followed Prince Rhaegar?s infamous abduction of Lyanna Stark was the ruin of House Targaryen. The full depth of King Aerys?s madness was subsequently revealed in his depraved actions against Lord Stark, his heir, and their supporters after they demanded redress for Rhaegar?s wrongs. Instead of granting them fair hearing, King Aerys had them brutally slain, then followed these murders by demanding that Lord Jon Arryn execute his former wards, Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark. Many now agree that the true start of Robert?s Rebellion began with Lord Arryn?s refusal and his courageous calling of his banners in the defense of justice. Yet not all the lords of the Vale agreed with Lord Jon?s decision, and soon fighting broke out as loyalists to the crown attempted to bring Lord Arryn down.
> 
> ...



I like how this is being written from a Maester's POV, you can really see where their allegiances align.


----------



## Brian (Oct 28, 2014)

I've seen several screenshots of this book including the new world map and I just ordered it, I should get it on Friday.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Oct 28, 2014)

I went to the local Target during my lunch break and skimmed through this book and it's pretty cool...and only $25

A lot of great art, especially the inside covers, the front (inside) cover is a spread of Dragonstone, and the back has Rhaegar vs Robert at the Trident.  There's also an amazing image of Valyria which is sick.

Also, if you like the Targaryen's, there is a huge section about the Targaryen Kings, the Dance of Dragons, and multiple Blackfyre Rebellions.


----------



## Brian (Oct 28, 2014)

Yep the illustrations looks amazing, like that Robert one and I saw one of Dragonstone, I think, which looks epic. There's also alot of info on the cities and places we've never visited in the series. I would have gotten it at the store but with work it's out of my way, I can't wait to dig into this.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Oct 28, 2014)

Here's what I took:




*[Pre-Doom] Valyria
*








> The great tourney held at King's Landing in 98 AC to celebrate the fiftieth year of King Jaehaerys's reign surely gladdened the queen's heart as well, for all her surviving children, grandchildren, and her great-granddaughter returned to share in the feasts and celebrations.
> 
> Not since the Doom of Valyria had so many dragons been seen in one place at one time, it was truly said.  The final tilt, wherein the Kingsguard knights Ser Ryam Redwyne and Ser Clement Crabb broke thirty lances against each other before King Jaehaerys proclaimed them cochampions, was declared to be the finest display of jousting ever seen in Westeros.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Oct 28, 2014)

*Dragonstone*


----------



## Brian (Oct 28, 2014)

Wait was that how Valyria normally looked like? If so no wonder it got destroyed with lava running around it  It looks very high fantasy.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Oct 28, 2014)

Yea, it threw me off for a second when I saw it.

What's cool about this book is that GRRM not only wanted to quality art, but accurate as well.  In a recent interview, he said besides the books descriptions, he himself gave personal instruction to the artists when it came to the major castles...which is why they all look sick.

Brian have you read the Dunk and Egg novellas?


*Spoiler*: _D&E Spoiler_ 



There is an awesome image of Dunk (in Kingsguard armor) about to square off against Lord Lyonel Baratheon (The Laughing Storm) in a trial by combat.


----------



## Brian (Oct 28, 2014)

This artist is really awesome, it's just a reminder of how grand GRRM visions were, I even saw the pic of the Iron Throne which Martin confirmed is the closest to his visions for it, I wonder if it's the same artist.

I took a short break from The Sworn Sword, I'm half way through. I read the Hedge Knight though. So there's Dunk & Egg info as well?


*Spoiler*: __ 




Now I really can't wait, if there's Dunk and Egg stuff as well, I hope there's something showing Aerion vs Dunk, actually the whole battle with all the participants.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Oct 28, 2014)

Well GRRM did say he was going to continue with Dunk & Egg's journeys, most likely till these two characters die. The book gives info on all the Targaryen kings, so it did outline some D&E points, but not in great detail...I wouldn't really call them spoilers. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Duncan the Tall vs The Laughing Storm


----------



## Cyphon (Oct 28, 2014)

Fuck that book looks awesome.


----------



## Stannis (Oct 29, 2014)

dat        art


----------



## Fruit Monger (Oct 29, 2014)

More art from TWoIaF


*Robert Baratheon vs Prince Rhaegar  
Artist: Justin Sweet*



*Daemon Blackfyre at the Battle of the Redgrass Field
Artist: Jos? Daniel Cabrera Pe?a
*


*Aegon the Conqueror with Balerion the Black Dread 
Artist: Jordi Gonz?lez Escamilla
*


*Aegon the Conqueror in battle
Artist: Magali Villeneuve
*


*Dragonstone
Artist: Philip Straub
*


*The Red Keep 
Artist: Ted Nasmith
*


*Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen, the Realm’s Delight 
Artist: Magali Villeneuve*



*Child of the Forest
Artist: Douglas Wheatley*



*Aegon the Unworthy's Mistresses*

(From left to right)Lady Melissa Blackwood, Serenei of Lys, Lady Falena Stokeworth, Bellegere Otherys.


(From left to right)Lady Bethany Bracken, Lady Barba Bracken, Megette (Merry Meg), Lady Cassella Vaith, Lady Jeyne Lothston


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Oct 30, 2014)

That art of Dragonstone is my favorite, holy shit. A fitting place for Stannis and definitely a place that would give almost any child nightmares. I feel even worse for Shireen then I already did.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Oct 30, 2014)

Those pieces of artwork are amazing, especially those of the castles; I would definitely very much enjoy living in any of them. The fight scene between Robert and Rhaegar is also very impressive, as is the image of Aegon riding on Balerion.

Why does the dragon not have normal forelimbs, as most dragons in fiction do? It has only its wings and hindlimbs, while most dragons have wings, hindlimbs, and forelimbs. And why do none of those women have perfectly straight hair? I know that those may seem to be odd things about which to complain, but I like perfectly straight hair more than any other type of hair, so I wonder why the artist did not have some variety in the hairstyles?


----------



## Brian (Oct 31, 2014)

The book just came in the mail


*Spoiler*: __ 



So many Long Nights and different Azor Ahai's throughout the world, I'm surprised it even happened in Yi Ti.

And Asshai seems and looks more grim here. 

I got a lot of reading ahead but I keep jumping back and forth to different sections


----------



## tari101190 (Nov 2, 2014)

Video by the guys who wrote the book with GRRM.

[YOUTUBE]SOBfD2HwLA4[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## kire (Nov 14, 2014)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> That art of Dragonstone is my favorite, holy shit. A fitting place for Stannis and definitely a place that would give almost any child nightmares. I feel even worse for Shireen then I already did.



I know right..
I so want that book!


----------



## dream (Dec 11, 2014)

Please be a release date announcement for TWoW.


----------



## Jagger (Dec 11, 2014)

I want that book.


----------



## dream (Dec 11, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



If Jon isn't alive I'm going to send a massive rant GRRM's way.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Dec 11, 2014)

Dream said:


> Please be a release date announcement for TWoW.




It's probably just a holiday thing.  Keep your hype to a minimum.


----------



## Jagger (Dec 11, 2014)

While I like the drawing, the author made some mistakes. Among them Tywin's eyes being blue despite they're green with golden specks. Not to mention I don't quite picture Tytos like that.


----------



## Brian (Dec 12, 2014)

Which is weird cause Elio and Linda are the ones George refers to if he doesn't remember a small detail like eye color, but whatever. 

I enjoyed reading about his back story, and about Casterly Rock, fuck Tytos. The Rains of Castamere was more brutal than I thought


----------



## Jagger (Dec 12, 2014)

I liked how Lann The Clever kicked out the Casterly House. 

But yes, Tytos was too passive towards its servants which allowed them to live in anarchy. Even the Iron Throne itself saw the madness going on there and decided too act, but alas, if the liege lord himself doesn't feel like acting.

Which makes you think Tywin's ruthless nature is a direct product of his father's incompetence.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Dec 12, 2014)

Brian said:


> I enjoyed reading about his back story, and about Casterly Rock, fuck Tytos. The Rains of Castamere was more brutal than I thought



^ Yes it was and it was also (IMO) one of the best parts of WOIAF.  The story behind the Reyne siblings, Ellyn Reyne's ambition to become the Lady of Casterly Rock was great.  

Tywin absolutely manhandling the Reynes and Tarbecks was just ruthlessly epic.


----------



## dream (Dec 12, 2014)

Fruit Monger said:


> It's probably just a holiday thing.  Keep your hype to a minimum.



Seems like it.


----------



## Brian (Dec 12, 2014)

Jagger said:


> I liked how Lann The Clever kicked out the Casterly House.
> 
> But yes, Tytos was too passive towards its servants which allowed them to live in anarchy. Even the Iron Throne itself saw the madness going on there and decided too act, but alas, if the liege lord himself doesn't feel like acting.
> 
> Which makes you think Tywin's ruthless nature is a direct product of his father's incompetence.




It's weird I wouldn't normally say Tywin was just in this but he had a very good reason to destroy the Reynes and Tarbecks. When you combine the mess his father left and the way he was bullied by his own friend Aerys, it's no wonder Tywin is the way he is.

Also the Lann tales were hilarious 



Fruit Monger said:


> ^ Yes it was and it was also (IMO) one of the best parts of WOIAF.  The story behind the Reyne siblings, Ellyn Reyne's ambition to become the Lady of Casterly Rock was great.
> 
> Tywin absolutely manhandling the Reynes and Tarbecks was just ruthlessly epic.



Yep that and Aegon's Conquest were good reads I'm still not done with the book though, I'm on the Dragon Kings. 

The sealing and drowning was insane, and Tywin didn't even do much, the Reynes and Tarbecks were better off fighting. Or at least create a secret passage in your castle just in case something goes down


----------



## Jagger (Dec 12, 2014)

There's a Laughing Storm, a laughing Lion and a laughing Wolf.

But I didn't see a laughing flayed man.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Dec 12, 2014)

The Laughing Storm > The Laughing _______  

the fury too strong


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 12, 2014)

oh man, i need to get on this book


----------



## Torpedo Titz (Dec 13, 2014)

Bought my copy today.

I wasn't going to buy this because I expected a regurgitation of the background presented in the novels with a few minor details and family trees.

Reading the discussion in this thread and on Westeros.org rapidly changed my mind. It looks and feels great, and I'm glad the artwork portrays more than the Battle of the Trident, King's Landing, the Wall etc.

This book is a love letter for fans of the history and setting of Song., and has whet my appetite for Martin's pseudo-history, Fire and Blood.


----------



## Jagger (Dec 13, 2014)

Last night I read about the Assai-By-The-Shadow.

It left me with more questions than I originally had. I guess that's what you get when you're reading things from a Maester's perspective.


----------



## Brian (Dec 13, 2014)

Yeah, especially about no children being in Asshai


----------



## Galo de Lion (Dec 14, 2014)

Beings called Deep ones exist in ASOIF

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/feat...e-learned-from-world-of-ice-and-fire-20141103



Varys confirmed to be a mermaid


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 14, 2014)

fuck, there is so much in ASOIAF 

GRRM would need a hundred lifetimes to flesh everything out


----------



## dream (Dec 14, 2014)

TTGL said:


> http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/feat...e-learned-from-world-of-ice-and-fire-20141103



Like the bit about Sothyros.


----------



## Jagger (Dec 15, 2014)

TTGL said:


> Beings called Deep ones exist in ASOIF
> 
> http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/feat...e-learned-from-world-of-ice-and-fire-20141103
> 
> ...


_"1. The Targaryens kind of sucked at ruling the Seven Kingdoms."_

Typical Rolling Stones.


----------



## Torpedo Titz (Dec 16, 2014)

So in light of WOIAF who do we prefer: Rhaenys or Visenya?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 21, 2014)

started reading now - God it's amazing


----------



## Daenerys Stormborn (Dec 27, 2014)

I got _The World of Ice and Fire_ as a Christmas gift and it's great so far.  So much detailed world-building, and some of the artwork is amazing.  I've gotten as far as The Dance of the Dragons.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 27, 2014)

I'm a little dissapointed, since the Dance part is basically the same as what was in The Princess and the Queen, only from a maesters PoV and it actually seems to me that the TP&TQ version was more detailed and fleshed out then this one (I read it was supposed to be the other way around)


still pretty gr8 though


----------



## Fruit Monger (Dec 27, 2014)

Jon Stark said:


> So in light of WOIAF who do we prefer: Rhaenys or Visenya?



Visenya, she's a bad bitch.  

I guess it doesn't matter seeing how her line died out with her nutjob son.




Neltharion said:


> I'm a little dissapointed, since the Dance part is basically the same as what was in The Princess and the Queen, only from a maesters PoV and it actually seems to me that the TP&TQ version was more detailed and fleshed out then this one (I read it was supposed to be the other way around)
> 
> 
> still pretty gr8 though



I see what you mean, I don't mind it too much...the Dunk and Egg stories will be the same.  Those novels will be fleshed out details of things that are in TWOIAF.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 27, 2014)

I liked that line about Jaehaerys I and Good Queen Alysanne (after their death)

".. and the realm never saw their like again" 

there was never again a ruler/rulers as great/good as these two .. poor Westeros


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 27, 2014)

and damn, those pictures of Valyria show that it was basically like Venice, only with LAVA instead of water 


no wonder they went sky-high


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 27, 2014)

also, Maegors rule really puts into perspective just how monumentally Cercei fucked up by allowing the restoration of the Stars and Swords 

that force is to be reckoned with


----------



## Torpedo Titz (Dec 27, 2014)

I personally consider Viserys II to be the best Targaryen monarch, with Daeron II in second place. Both of whom helped the realm enormously through tough times -- the post-Dance of the Dragons era and First Blackfyre Rebellion era respectively.

By comparison, Jaehaerys I's greatest achievements were ending the war with the Faith Militant and living a long life (unless I'm forgetting something). While the former is indeed admirable, the latter demonstrates a lack of significant interior or exterior threats to Westeros.



Fruit Monger said:


> Visenya, she's a bad bitch.
> 
> I guess it doesn't matter seeing how her line died out with her nutjob son.



That bad bitch gave us Maegor. But Rhaenys eventually gave us Maegor with Teats. 

Greens4lyfe.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Dec 27, 2014)

Neltharion said:


> I liked that line about Jaehaerys I and Good Queen Alysanne (after their death)
> 
> ".. and the realm never saw their like again"
> 
> there was never again a ruler/rulers as great/good as these two .. poor Westeros



Jaehaerys's Tourney for the 50th year of his reign sounded sick. 



Neltharion said:


> also, Maegors rule really puts into perspective just how monumentally Cercei fucked up by allowing the restoration of the Stars and Swords
> 
> that force is to be reckoned with



Out of all of Cersei's fuckups, this is probably the biggest.  The average reader is seriously underestimating how much shit these guys are wreck in TWoW.  



Jon Stark said:


> That bad bitch gave us Maegor. But Rhaenys eventually gave us Maegor with Teats.
> 
> Greens4lyfe.



​
We might need to make a Bad Bitch Power Ranking...


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 27, 2014)

dem Targaryens are like all models


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 27, 2014)

we also need a jester/fool ranking 


    Mushroom
    Florian the Fool
    Moon Boy
    Butterbumps
    Patchface
    Jinglebell


----------



## Cyphon (Dec 27, 2014)

I got this for Christmas and just tapped into it a little today. Only finished the first part so far, up to The Rule of Dragons or whatever it is titled.

The first thing that jumps out at me is the cover. Not only does it look nice, but it feels great. In all of my time reading books I don't think I have ever felt a soft hardcover. Probably isn't so rare, but this is my first experience with it. 

All of the artwork really jumps out at you. Not a drawing I haven't liked so far. The Targaryn woman early on was gorgeous. 

As far as the content goes I haven't come across anything that has interested me too much. Not that it is bad or anything, but it is just kind of meh. I do like how much depth this is giving the world and I also like the maester perspective that also allows for possible inconsistencies in the history.


----------



## Jagger (Dec 27, 2014)

Neltharion said:


> dem Targaryens are like all models


Considering they were born out of a magical race that exhibits rare magical traits, so it's no wonder they seem to be more good-looking than the rest.


----------



## Torpedo Titz (Dec 28, 2014)

Fruit Monger said:


> Out of all of Cersei's fuckups, this is probably the biggest.  The average reader is seriously underestimating how much shit these guys are wreck in TWoW.



Exactly. Not even with Balerion, a _pre-Doom_ monstrosity, could Maegor crush the Faith. I also believe they will declare for Aegon VI just as they declared for Aegon II during the Dance.



Fruit Monger said:


> ​
> We might need to make a Bad Bitch Power Ranking...



Visenya
Nymeria
Rhaenyra
Rhaenys Velaryon
Meria Martell
Black Pearl
Ellyn Reyne/Lannister/Tarbeck
Melisandre of Asshai
Tyanna of the Tower
Cersei


----------



## Fruit Monger (Dec 28, 2014)

Neltharion said:


> we also need a jester/fool ranking
> 
> 
> Mushroom
> ...



Patchface needs to be on top. I know. I know.



Cyphon said:


> As far as the content goes I haven't come across anything that has interested me too much. Not that it is bad or anything, but it is just kind of meh. I do like how much depth this is giving the world and I also like the maester perspective that also allows for possible inconsistencies in the history.



I know what you mean, like TPTQ and RP, this book is a massive info dump



Jon Stark said:


> I also believe they will declare for Aegon VI just as they declared for Aegon II during the Dance.



Yea, the smallfolk of KL need someone to rally behind.  By the end of Feast/Dance is was the Faith.  Once the son of the loved Prince Rhaegar returns...  



Jon Stark said:


> Visenya
> Nymeria
> Rhaenyra
> Rhaenys Velaryon
> ...



I forget her name but the the Lady Blackwood who lead the fight against King Hoare.  _"I would sooner have your sword in me than your cock."_  Defiant to the bloody end. 

And don't forget Brienne and Dacey


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 28, 2014)

so many bad bitches in ASOIAF


----------



## Torpedo Titz (Dec 28, 2014)

World of Ice and Fire drinking game: take a drink every time the Blackwoods are painted in a positive light. 

Fortunately, the Brackens have Bittersteel -- one of the biggest badasses in the series.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 28, 2014)

Jon, in your sig - that is Jon and Melisandre ?


----------



## Torpedo Titz (Dec 28, 2014)

Yep, a Song of Ice and Fire. :ignoramus

Jon leading an army of shadow children against the Others. It will happen.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 28, 2014)

> an army of shadow children


but where will they all come from ? ..


----------



## Jagger (Dec 28, 2014)

Better yet, take a shot everytime the words "boiled leather" appear.


----------



## Cyphon (Dec 28, 2014)

Just finished Reign of the Dragons. Definitely better than the earlier history and I really liked the part where Orys Baratheon met Argilac in battle. Awesome stuff.


----------



## Cyphon (Dec 29, 2014)

Up to The Fall of the Dragons now.

I could tell you very little of what I have read now. I thought we were hit with a lot of names reading the main books but this.......Damn. I can't even come close to keeping up with it all. I did really enjoy finally getting to Egg. I was a bit surprised at how negative his reign sounded. I really expected a bit more glory in it. Anyway, that teaser at the end got me hyped. I am assuming Martin is eventually going to give us that whole thing. I am a big fan of the Dunk & Egg stories.


----------



## Fierce (Dec 29, 2014)

Been reading pretty sparingly. Up to the Year of the False Spring. Will undoubtedly read that tonight.


----------



## Jagger (Dec 29, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> Up to The Fall of the Dragons now.
> 
> I could tell you very little of what I have read now. I thought we were hit with a lot of names reading the main books but this.......Damn. I can't even come close to keeping up with it all. I did really enjoy finally getting to Egg. I was a bit surprised at how negative his reign sounded. I really expected a bit more glory in it. Anyway, that teaser at the end got me hyped. I am assuming Martin is eventually going to give us that whole thing. I am a big fan of the Dunk & Egg stories.


Good people are not necessarily good kings. Robert was a kind person, more or less, but his reign was a disaster only kept in one piece because he had influence in most of the Houses (married to a Lannister, best friend Stark/Tully, being a Baratheon, etc.)


----------



## Cyphon (Dec 29, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Good people are not necessarily good kings. Robert was a kind person, more or less, but his reign was a disaster only kept in one piece because he had influence in most of the Houses (married to a Lannister, best friend Stark/Tully, being a Baratheon, etc.)



True. I just got the impression from him being groomed to treat all people fairly would have made for a solid base.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 29, 2014)

Robert had a good Hand


----------



## Jagger (Dec 29, 2014)

Same as Aerys II.

He was an average King before being kidnapped, but Tywin made an excellent administrator, making the whole realm prosper.

Of course, until Aerys decided to hit on Tywin's wife and take away his heir.


----------



## Torpedo Titz (Dec 29, 2014)

Aegon V was a good king. He was a pragmatist who tried to revolutionise his House and the Realm, but there's implied darkness with his desire to revive dragons. Hence _Summerhall_.

I think we should have a Targaryen Kings ranking. I already know mine.


----------



## Cyphon (Dec 29, 2014)

Neltharion said:


> Robert had a good Hand



Cersei knows that better than anyone


----------



## Fruit Monger (Dec 29, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> I did really enjoy finally getting to Egg. I was a bit surprised at how negative his reign sounded. I really expected a bit more glory in it. Anyway, that teaser at the end got me hyped. I am assuming Martin is eventually going to give us that whole thing. I am a big fan of the Dunk & Egg stories.



Yea, I liked the Egg5 portion too b/c of the background the Dunk & Egg stories provides.  There's supposed to be six more stories, the next which takes place in the North/Winterfell and the last which ends with Summerhall.

Off the top of my head, I know at least of two D&E spoilers after the Targaryen Kings section 


*Spoiler*: __ 



- Dunk vs Laughing Storm
- Rohanne Webber

There are probably more.


----------



## Cyphon (Dec 29, 2014)

That should be pretty awesome.

I am still salty I can't buy the physical copies. Hard to find and when I do they are ridiculously expensive.


----------



## Jagger (Dec 29, 2014)

I found it curious how that girl we met in the second book of Dunk & Egg ended up being Tywin's grandmother.

I guess one could say it's indeed a small world.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Dec 29, 2014)

Cyphon said:


> That should be pretty awesome.
> 
> I am still salty I can't buy the physical copies. Hard to find and when I do they are ridiculously expensive.



When the book came out it was $20 at my local Target.



Jagger said:


> I found it curious how that girl we met in the second book of Dunk & Egg ended up being Tywin's grandmother.
> 
> I guess one could say it's indeed a small world.



Well she was one of his suitors.  Most likely Osgrey died, either in battle or natural causes.  

More curious is the manner of her disappearance.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 30, 2014)

Targaryen King ranking sounds nice

someone list all of them first 

idk, Aegon the Conqueror would probably be my top1 still




so who was the greatest knight/warrior that ever lived since Aegons conquest began ?  I am coming up with 3 candidates - Aemon the Dragonknight, Barristan, Arthur Dayne


----------



## Torpedo Titz (Dec 30, 2014)

Neltharion said:


> so who was the greatest knight/warrior that ever lived since Aegons conquest began ?  I am coming up with 3 candidates - Aemon the Dragonknight, Barristan, Arthur Dayne



IMO it's between these guys:
Maegor - Went toe-to-toe with the Warrior's Sons in a Trial of Seven and won; gave no fucks and fought savagely against the Faith
Ser Criston Cole - wrecked Breakbones after Rhaenyra's sluttiness; trained Aemond Targaryen; championed the Greens and hammered the Blacks (who slew him with arrows - surprise surprise...)
Aemon the Dragonknight - long, long list of heroics...
Daemon Blackfyre - ''fought like the Warrior himself'' at the Redgrass Fields; was close to breaking the Targaryen Loyalists
Ser Barristan - Long, long list of heroics...
Ser Arthur Dayne - Sword of the Morning is a title earned not given - 'nuff said

But the answer is clearly Bronn (from the show).


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 30, 2014)

hmm, what about Daemon Targaryen (not Blackfyre) ? fucker jumped in the air on top of Vhagar to kill Aemond 



> Over the centuries, House Targaryen has produced both great men and monsters. Prince Daemon was both.”
> 
> - Archmaestar Gyldayn









> But the answer is clearly Bronn (from the show).


either him or Pedro Pascal Oberyn


----------



## Jagger (Dec 30, 2014)

It's obviously Jaime.

Oh wait.


----------



## Cyphon (Dec 31, 2014)

Jon Stark said:


> Ser Barristan - Long, long list of heroics...
> Ser Arthur Dayne - Sword of the Morning is a title earned not given - 'nuff said



I am looking at your list and can think of a guy who beat both of them. Rhaegar Targayen. Add to that list Brandon Stark and you have yourself quite the remarkable dude. Especially if you consider he didn't even care much about going to battle like that. 

And of course if you count him, how about Robert Baratheon who defeated him in a real battle? Of course he was fueled by hate and such so maybe he had a boost that wouldn't apply normally. 

And not to list him with the strongest, but one of my favorite combat feats came from Syrio Forel when he defeated 5 guards with a practice sword and then took on a Kingsguard with it. And the way it was told, he basically would have stomped him given a real weapon. 

Lots of interesting choices really and I don't think you can go wrong with any of them. 


And now I have just finished reading the Westlands part of the book. A lot of this stuff seems repetitive and tedious with so much similar history between all of the places but reading about Tywin in his younger days was definitely a bright spot. He didn't play no games.


----------



## Jagger (Dec 31, 2014)

I don't see how you can be so soundly sure that Rhaegar was a better swordman than Arthur Dayne or Ser Barristan. These two are of the most heroic and easily praised knights we've seen through the series, specially by conceited bastards such as Jaime Lannister (before his hand was cut). 

Was he a splendid knight, by the own admission of Barristan? Sure. But I can't say he was better than them.


----------



## Cyphon (Dec 31, 2014)

Jagger said:


> I don't see how you can be so soundly sure that Rhaegar was a better swordman than Arthur Dayne or Ser Barristan.



IIRC he beat them in jousting. I never mentioned swords. The question was about greatest "knight" and Rhaegar beat them both in the same tournament. So I think he should be in the discussion. He also beat Brandon Stark who was apparently pretty good as well. 

But what is more interesting to me was his actual potential. It was driven home that he had interest in books and music and didn't take part in many tournaments. Even still, he defeated 2 of the GOAT. Imagine if fighting was his whole life.


----------



## Extravlad (Dec 31, 2014)

Rhaegar was a good swordsman, but comparing him to Arthur Dayne or Selmy is a joke.
Rhaegar is Loras Tyrell's lvl at best, great but by no mean top 3 in Westeros.

Was he a better knight than them just because he won at jousting? Definitely not if you consider that used to get his ass kicked by Selmy until Harrenhall.
That's like Jorah beating Jaime, Rhaegar was on a streak that's it.

Anyway the greatest knight of all time has to be Serwyn of the mirror shield, mostly cause out of all the legendary knights we've heard of he's the only one that isn't a fiction.


----------



## Torpedo Titz (Dec 31, 2014)

Neltharion said:


> hmm, what about Daemon Targaryen (not Blackfyre) ? fucker jumped in the air on top of Vhagar to kill Aemond



Daemon is an absolute badass, but jumping off Caraxes to skewer Aemond with Dark Sister is more a case of daring and madness than warrior's skill. Plus, he became King of the Stepstones from the backing of the Sea Snake _and_ Iron Throne. 



Cyphon said:


> I am looking at your list and can think of a guy who beat both of them. Rhaegar Targayen. Add to that list Brandon Stark and you have yourself quite the remarkable dude. Especially if you consider he didn't even care much about going to battle like that.
> 
> And of course if you count him, how about Robert Baratheon who defeated him in a real battle? Of course he was fueled by hate and such so maybe he had a boost that wouldn't apply normally.
> 
> ...



True, but tourney victories swing back and forth. Loras Tyrell unhorsed Jaime Lannister shortly before Game began, and during the same book Sandor unhorsed Jaime. In his wrath Ser Criston Cole smashed the Blacks at one of Viserys I's tourneys, and Rhaegar's victory at Harrenhal was possibly fuelled by his desire to crown Lyanna and fulfil the prophecy he was addicted to. As you've mentioned Robert crumpling Rhaegar was also fuelled by rage...

Whereas guys like Ser Arthur Dayne and other legendary Kingsguard members were always on the frontlines in their duty. Plus, the title ''Sword of the Morning'' and Dawn may only be awarded to those of impeccable skill, spirit and virtue. This is only speculatin, but that's perhaps why we've only heard of one person to hold this rank (and _maybe_ two depending on the ''Sword of the Evening'' guy Nymeria sent to the Wall).

But as you say there's no right or wrong answer, but it's fun to speculate. Plus, when we include Bravos and different fighters like Oberyn it becomes impossible to determine...



Extravlad said:


> Anyway the greatest knight of all time has to be Serwyn of the mirror shield, mostly cause out of all the legendary knights we've heard of he's the only one that isn't a fiction.



Serwyn may have existed, but his deeds are almonst certainly fictional. He was probably a warlord or a wanderer of the First Men who was raised to knighthood and given a bunch of fantastical deeds posthumously by the Andals (the Faith of the Seven is richest in the Reach too).


----------



## Cyphon (Dec 31, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Rhaegar was a good swordsman, but comparing him to Arthur Dayne or Selmy is a joke.
> Rhaegar is Loras Tyrell's lvl at best, great but by no mean top 3 in Westeros.



Like I said, nobody ever mentioned swords. Try reading. People fight with more than just swords. 



Jon Stark said:


> True, but tourney victories swing back and forth.



They do, but so would any battle if death wasn't involved. So I try to put it in perspective and keep it balanced. So here is how I see it. Barristan himself said something like "the person who wins the day isn't necessarily the better warrior". But unless there are EXTREME circumstances you would never get Tyrion beating a Clegane for example. All things equal in a battle, you would have to be of similar skill level to take someone down.

And assuming all things were mostly equal, Rhaegar beat Dayne, Selmy and Stark all in the same day. So his skill level has to be pretty damn high. And again, I am not saying this makes Rhaegar the best, but it should put him in the conversation. It isn't like he got a little lucky and toppled Selmy. He beat *TWO* of the best. 



> Whereas guys like Ser Arthur Dayne and other legendary Kingsguard members were always on the frontlines in their duty. Plus, the title ''Sword of the Morning'' and Dawn may only be awarded to those of impeccable skill, spirit and virtue. This is only speculatin, but that's perhaps why we've only heard of one person to hold this rank (and _maybe_ two depending on the ''Sword of the Evening'' guy Nymeria sent to the Wall).



This is why I would give them the edge. They were born fighters. Rhaegar wasn't so much. That is why it is fun to think of his potential. If he had the ability in him to have a day like that, what would he have done had he dedicated more time to fighting like those others? He is like the Gohan of ASoIaF.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Dec 31, 2014)

> Like I said, nobody ever mentioned swords.


well actually when I asked about "best warrior" I meant exactly that - a (1v1) sword (or weapon of choice) fight, preferably on foot, but could be on horseback

btw -


----------



## Cyphon (Dec 31, 2014)

Neltharion said:


> well actually when I asked about "best warrior" I meant exactly that - a (1v1) sword (or weapon of choice) fight, preferably on foot, but could be on horseback



Fair enough.

Either way I would lean Dayne and Selmy winning more times than not.

Can someone link me to something that has these guys with a list of their battle feats? Not sure if there is anything organized like that.


----------



## Cyphon (Jan 2, 2015)

I just finished the book and I have to say that I am mostly disappointed. The book is worth it for the style and art alone but the actual content was pretty weak. So much bland and general information that just blended altogether and became repetitive made for a very dry read that only the most hardcore fans could truly appreciate. Don't get me wrong, I love when an author covers or tries to cover everything and answer questions but we really didn't get much of that. 

There weren't many interesting details or stories that came out of most of it and a lot of it was the writer saying "we really don't know much". Makes the book feel pretty pointless as I sit here right now. I would have much preferred a more condensed and specified book that focused on major events and really went into detail with those. One example would be filling in the story of Ned Stark vs the Kingsguard.


----------



## Jagger (Jan 5, 2015)

Cyphon said:


> IIRC he beat them in jousting. I never mentioned swords. The question was about greatest "knight" and Rhaegar beat them both in the same tournament. So I think he should be in the discussion. He also beat Brandon Stark who was apparently pretty good as well.


Jousting tournaments aren't exactly the best way of comparison between knights. Jon Stark made this point specifically clear when several fighters of different kinds gets unhorsed for different reasons (such as cheating, for example). It's a matter of both luck (probability) and skill. 

Well, there are many kind of 'good warriors'. Syrio beat several guarded knights with just a wooden sword and barely trying, Oberyn's fighting style requires a spear which gives him an advantage over sword users. It's like trying to determine who is the best fighter currently with so many categories.



> But what is more interesting to me was his actual potential. It was driven home that he had interest in books and music and didn't take part in many tournaments. Even still, he defeated 2 of the GOAT. Imagine if fighting was his whole life.


Who knows. Still, I don't jousting is a fair starting to point to compare these fighters. Maybe Oberyn himself isn't the most skilled jouster, but he's a terrific fighter with a spear. Ask Gregor about it.


----------



## Cyphon (Jan 5, 2015)

Jagger said:


> Jousting tournaments aren't exactly the best way of comparison between knights. Jon Stark made this point specifically clear when several fighters of different kinds gets unhorsed for different reasons (such as cheating, for example). It's a matter of both luck (probability) and skill.
> 
> Well, there are many kind of 'good warriors'. Syrio beat several guarded knights with just a wooden sword and barely trying, Oberyn's fighting style requires a spear which gives him an advantage over sword users. It's like trying to determine who is the best fighter currently with so many categories.
> 
> Who knows. Still, I don't jousting is a fair starting to point to compare these fighters. Maybe Oberyn himself isn't the most skilled jouster, but he's a terrific fighter with a spear. Ask Gregor about it.



All true but the author himself uses it to hype people as well and it is a form of battle, just like any other type. Even in a sword fight during war you could trip over something or someone could cheat. 

Unless Martin put out an actual list there is no real way to truly tell. I was only pointing out that 1 guy managed to beat 2 of the guys people consider 2 of the strongest ever. That says to me that he should be somewhere in the discussion, even if not ultimately at the top.


----------



## Jagger (Jan 5, 2015)

Cyphon said:


> I just finished the book and I have to say that I am mostly disappointed. The book is worth it for the style and art alone but the actual content was pretty weak. So much bland and general information that just blended altogether and became repetitive made for a very dry read that only the most hardcore fans could truly appreciate. Don't get me wrong, I love when an author covers or tries to cover everything and answer questions but we really didn't get much of that.
> 
> There weren't many interesting details or stories that came out of most of it and a lot of it was the writer saying "we really don't know much". Makes the book feel pretty pointless as I sit here right now. I would have much preferred a more condensed and specified book that focused on major events and really went into detail with those. One example would be filling in the *story of Ned Stark vs the Kingsguard.*


Except that's the entire point of the book, a history lesson by the point of view of a simple Maester unknowing of the darkest secrets of the magic world they live in, exactly the same way our history was once recorded when our archaeological methods weren't exactly accurate or very precise. 

Not to mention that details about the East are described in the book, such as Yi Ti, which is a clear example. Also, the bolded isn't really happening in said book because, well, it'd be a spoiler to the actual story.


----------



## Cyphon (Jan 5, 2015)

Jagger said:


> Except that's the entire point of the book, a history lesson by the point of view of a simple Maester unknowing of the darkest secrets of the magic world they live in, exactly the same way our history was once recorded when our archaeological methods weren't exactly accurate or very precise.
> 
> Not to mention that details about the East are described in the book, such as Yi Ti, which is a clear example.



I understand what the point of it is. That doesn't change the fact that it was full of repetitive, uninteresting information. They could have easily found ways to have some of the information well recorded or passed down and given us better details. 

Especially so if they never plan on bringing it up in the story again. Wouldn't be anything to spoil or ruin for anyone. 



> Also, the bolded isn't really happening in said book because, well, it'd be a spoiler to the actual story.



What exactly would it spoil? I never got the impression there were details that would be relevant down the road. We already know the outcome and that it happened.


----------



## Jagger (Jan 5, 2015)

Cyphon said:


> I understand what the point of it is. That doesn't change the fact that it was full of repetitive, uninteresting information. They could have easily found ways to have some of the information well recorded or passed down and given us better details.
> 
> Especially so if they never plan on bringing it up in the story again. Wouldn't be anything to spoil or ruin for anyone.


Maybe uninteresting for you, but others found the book particulary interesting. Me, being among them. 

'Easily found out'? I don't exactly know what do you mean by this. Maesters are still human beings mortal and incapable of recording every single piece of historical evidence out there, not to mention they probably hid pieces of information here and there and they could be potentially inaccurate given how they claim Joffrey and Tommen to be Robert's true heirs. 




> What exactly would it spoil? I never got the impression there were details that would be relevant down the road. We already know the outcome and that it happened.


The exact event hasn't been fully explained, just little traces of it vaguely hinted during Ned's hallucinations while he was imprisoned.


----------



## Cyphon (Jan 6, 2015)

Jagger said:


> Maybe uninteresting for you, but others found the book particulary interesting. Me, being among them.



Sure, and I already said it would be fine for HC fans. I love the series, but most of this information we got was forgettable.



> 'Easily found out'? I don't exactly know what do you mean by this. Maesters are still human beings mortal and incapable of recording every single piece of historical evidence out there, not to mention they probably hid pieces of information here and there and they could be potentially inaccurate given how they claim Joffrey and Tommen to be Robert's true heirs.



I am talking about the actual authors of the book. Martin and the other 2. They could have easily made it believable for the maester writing this to have access to better and more detailed information. Instead, they barely gave us anything. A few interesting little tidbits filling in blanks but the rest was mostly repetitive drivel. 

And I am mainly talking about once they got into the locations. North, South, West etc...It was all repetitive fluff. 



> The exact event hasn't been fully explained, just little traces of it vaguely hinted during Ned's hallucinations while he was imprisoned.



Yes I know, I have read the books. My point is, I can't see why it would come up and be important in the last 2 books. So if it doesn't come up, it is something they could have expanded on in this book as opposed to wasting our time with some of the other stuff.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 6, 2015)

Martin can always write AWOIAF 2


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Jan 20, 2015)

Recently, Martin clearly and unambiguously denied the theory that Coldhands is Benjen Stark, which greatly displeases me, since I really liked that theory. To so clearly give an answer to a question in this manner is uncharacteristic of Martin, since he usually does not give clear and direct answers to major questions, instead revealing the answers through the stories, most notably with how he has not given any clear answer as to whom Jon Snow's mother is (although I believe that his having Aegon VI, Rhaegar's son, still be alive, was his subtle way of dispelling the theory that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna).

However, this denial once again calls attention to the fact that Benjen disappeared without a trace and has not been seen since early in the first book, which makes me believe that martin may still have plans for him, since, despite him killing off characters very frequently, he almost never leaves any loose ends or unresolved plot lines. And if Coldhands is not Benjen, he surely must be someone important, since I doubt that Martin would have him be a random unimportant character who suddenly became an undead being one day.

How does everyone else feel about Martin denying a popular fan theory?


----------



## asdfa (Jan 21, 2015)

Where did he say that?


----------



## Fruit Monger (Jan 21, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> And if Coldhands is not Benjen, he surely must be someone important...
> 
> How does everyone else feel about Martin denying a popular fan theory?



1) I don't understand why Coldhands needs to be someone important.  I think he's simply a wight that Bloodraven is controlling.

2) I think you are misinterpreting what actually happened here.  An editor wrote a marginal note in the original ADWD manuscript asking if Coldhands = Benjen.  So GRRM is admitting this BEFORE the book released, it's not like someone asked him in a recent interview and pried this info out of him.  If the person looking for the original manuscript never looked through it, this question wouldn't have been answered.




asdfa said:


> Where did he say that?


----------



## asdfa (Jan 21, 2015)

> it's not like someone asked him in a recent interview and pried this info out of him.


That's what I thought happened 
It's so nonchalant in actuality


> Is this Benjen? I think it's Benjen... :**)





> NO


----------



## Sferr (Jan 22, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Recently, Martin clearly and unambiguously denied the theory that Coldhands is Benjen Stark, which greatly displeases me, since I really liked that theory. To so clearly give an answer to a question in this manner is uncharacteristic of Martin, since he usually does not give clear and direct answers to major questions, instead revealing the answers through the stories, most notably with how he has not given any clear answer as to whom Jon Snow's mother is (although I believe that his having Aegon VI, Rhaegar's son, still be alive, was his subtle way of dispelling the theory that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna).
> 
> However, this denial once again calls attention to the fact that Benjen disappeared without a trace and has not been seen since early in the first book, which makes me believe that martin may still have plans for him, since, despite him killing off characters very frequently, he almost never leaves any loose ends or unresolved plot lines. And if Coldhands is not Benjen, he surely must be someone important, since I doubt that Martin would have him be a random unimportant character who suddenly became an undead being one day.
> 
> How does everyone else feel about Martin denying a popular fan theory?



I have never really understood the appeal of Benjen=Coldhands theory. Coldhands turning up being just a quite irrelevant ranger, lost a few years ago would kinda devalue him, imo. 

Also, Aegon VI, Rhaegar's son is probably dead.


----------



## asdfa (Jan 22, 2015)

Eh, it's a common habit to expect everything relevant to be connected to something established.
If he'll be revealed as nobody established, many jimmies will be rustled just because that part wasn't tied into expected, neat little knot.


----------



## Jagger (Jan 22, 2015)

Sferr said:


> Also, Aegon VI, Rhaegar's son is probably dead.


A mountain fell on him.


----------



## Sferr (Jan 22, 2015)

asdfa said:


> Eh, it's a common habit to expect everything relevant to be connected to something established.
> If he'll be revealed as nobody established, many jimmies will be rustled just because that part wasn't tied into expected, neat little knot.



Well, I kinda understand that. I just believe it's a boring theory and I don't see why people would like it to be true. There could be far more interesting ideas regarding both Benjen's and Coldhands' story in the future. If Coldhands truly turned up being Benjen, I would have been like "meh, whatever". 



Jagger said:


> A mountain fell on him.



Exactly


----------



## asdfa (Jan 22, 2015)

Sferr said:


> Well, I kinda understand that. I just believe it's a boring theory and I don't see why people would like it to be true. There could be far more interesting ideas regarding both Benjen's and Coldhands' story in the future. If Coldhands truly turned up being Benjen, I would have been like "meh, whatever".


I don't think people really *wanted* that to happen, as much as they just desired the satisfactory "connection between the characters" trope to happen. And this fits.

*Mysterious character that turns out to be someone from before*. Trope as old as time.

I agree it's a boring option. I mean Benjen is quite irrelevant. If you really want that cliffhanger at least suspect someone important


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 23, 2015)

subscribing to thread, read all the books and loved them, one of the most page-turning books I've read in a long while


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## tari101190 (Jan 30, 2015)

So how will they show the whole Arya magic face thing in the tv show?

A prop that looks like a cut off face put over her own, but then use a different actor?


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## ~M~ (Jan 30, 2015)

Knowing the show they'll cut the entire  Braavos Arc


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## Brian (Jan 30, 2015)

Dunno, I think the only thing they'll cut from that is the Kindly Man and replace him with Jaqen


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 30, 2015)

tari101190 said:


> So how will they show the whole Arya magic face thing in the tv show?
> 
> A prop that looks like a cut off face put over her own, but then use a different actor?


That's generally the route shows go with shapeshifting characters.


----------



## Jagger (Jan 30, 2015)

At this point, I don't even know.

For example, Joras fighting a guy that he shouldn't be fighting or Varys and Tyrion together.

I guess that means Kevan won't die.


----------



## asdfa (Jan 30, 2015)

*avoids TV as fire since season 2*


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## Jagger (Jan 30, 2015)

inb4 they also make Jaime gay for the shit and giggles.


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## Sferr (Jan 31, 2015)

Jagger said:


> At this point, I don't even know.
> 
> For example, Joras fighting a guy that he shouldn't be fighting or Varys and Tyrion together.
> 
> I guess that means Kevan won't die.



Kevan already died. Somewhere between season 1 and season 2


----------



## ~M~ (Jan 31, 2015)

Brian said:


> Dunno, I think the only thing they'll cut from that is the Kindly Man and replace him with Jaqen



A popular theory on reddit is that the Alchemist at the beginning of A Feast For Crows is Jaqen, infiltration into oldtown


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## Fruit Monger (Jan 31, 2015)

It's pretty much a lock that Jaqen->Alchemist->Pate


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## Jagger (Jan 31, 2015)

Sferr said:


> Kevan already died. Somewhere between season 1 and season 2


Wait, are you serious?


----------



## Brian (Jan 31, 2015)

~M~ said:


> A popular theory on reddit is that the Alchemist at the beginning of A Feast For Crows is Jaqen, infiltration into oldtown



Jaqen is all over the place. I want to know why he was in the black cells of King's Landing to begin with, it's not like anyone could capture him.


----------



## Sferr (Jan 31, 2015)

~M~ said:


> A popular theory on reddit is that the Alchemist at the beginning of A Feast For Crows is Jaqen, infiltration into oldtown


Yeah, as was said above, that's not a theory, that's basically a fact.



Jagger said:


> Wait, are you serious?



Partly?  He was in the show in season 1 (although he was basically a glorified extra) but then he was cut from later seasons and I guess from the entire show altogether. If D&D planned to reintroduce him, season 5 is the season to do it. But there was no confirmed information of him returning so I guess we won't see Kevan in the show anymore.


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## Jagger (Feb 1, 2015)

Kevan plays a significant role when it comes to the ruling of House Lannister and the Iron Throne.

Without Tyrion or Tywin around to keep Cersei at bay, he was the only one that could do the job and he even temporarily refused until he saw how badly the Tyrell were trying to impose their influence.

Removing him would be a dumb move, but considering Tyrion and Varys seem to be together at Essos, it isn't likely a certain event is going to happen.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 1, 2015)

Sferr said:


> Also, Aegon VI, Rhaegar's son is probably dead.



If that is true, then who is the Aegon whom Tyrion met, and is currently building his forces?



asdfa said:


> I agree it's a boring option. *I mean Benjen is quite irrelevant.* If you really want that cliffhanger at least suspect someone important



How is that the case? He is the brother of Ned Stark and uncle of all the Stark children, who are all major characters in this series, which should make him important, by extension. Plus, as I have stated numerous times before, Benjen disappeared without a trace, meaning that there currently is no explanation for what happened to him. By this time, I have become accustomed to Martin killing characters without great flair, but leaving such a loose thread as this is unacceptable. Readers are expecting Martin to eventually explain who Jon's mother is, so it only makes sense to expect him to explain what happened to Benjen, as well. If Benjen is dead, why not simply say so, and end the mystery? The fact that Martin has not yet given a clear answer about that means that he almost certainly has further plans for him.


----------



## ~M~ (Feb 1, 2015)

Going to have to agree, Benjnen was a mystery introduced in the first book quite clearly and if it was a mere death it would have been explained away already. There's been quite a bit of exploration beyond the wall after all. I thought he was Coldhands at first but it doesn't seem that way now


----------



## Jagger (Feb 1, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> If that is true, then who is the Aegon whom Tyrion met, and is currently building his forces?


There are some theories regarding Young Griff's parentage.

Some think he's the actual son of Rhaegar and Lyanna or some Blackfyre descendant.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Feb 1, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> How is that the case? He is the brother of Ned Stark and uncle of all the Stark children, who are all major characters in this series, which should make him important, by extension.



Calling Benjen irrelevant sounds harsh...but it's the truth.  Seriously, don't hold you're breath hoping for some epic return as some sort of cog to this story.  His role never had (or will) that much depth.

I don't think you're grasping the culture GRRM has built here.  Benjen is the third son of a great noble House, guys like him live the life of servitude for their lords (or other lords); Nights Watch, Citadel, the Faith, etc.  

Most people want him to be relevant BECAUSE he's a Stark.   




Jagger said:


> There are some theories regarding Young Griff's parentage.
> 
> Some think he's the actual son of Rhaegar and Lyanna or some Blackfyre descendant.



Whether Young Griff is Aegon VI or a Pretender, it won't matter b/c Dany will view him as the later.

Once word reaches her that some hidden Targaryen King takes _her_ throne with the support of the Golden Company (historically Blackfyre supporters), the Faith/common folk, Dorne, and some Houses from the Reach, she's gonna go batshit and immediately oppose him.  

GRRM admitted that there will be a second Dance of Dragons, and these two parallel their ancestors.  Aegon II had the backing of the Iron Throne, military numbers, Faith, etc., while Rhaenerya had the Dragon advantage. 

#greens4lyfe


----------



## Jagger (Feb 2, 2015)

Not really.

Daenerys isn't cut to be a leader. She was never properly taught how to do that, she relied on her brother doing so by misleading her with false promises and when she finally had the opportunity to rule, she's just pampered with compliments, blind praise, etc. 

Meeren taught her well she cannot properly rule. About Young Griff? Well, it depends on what Dany and Stannis does. If Ser Davos finds Rickon, the North will join Stannis.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 2, 2015)

> GRRM admitted that there will be a second Dance of Dragons


but there aren't enough dragons alive for that


----------



## Fruit Monger (Feb 2, 2015)

Jagger said:


> Not really.
> 
> Daenerys isn't cut to be a leader. She was never properly taught how to do that, she relied on her brother doing so by misleading her with false promises and when she finally had the opportunity to rule, she's just pampered with compliments, blind praise, etc.
> 
> Meeren taught her well she cannot properly rule. About Young Griff? Well, it depends on what Dany and Stannis does. If Ser Davos finds Rickon, the North will join Stannis.



It doesn't matter that she isn't cut out as a leader.  She won't be the first person unqualified to lead that is in a leadership position.  What matters is that _she believes_ she's right.  She believes that her claim is the one of truth, her cause being one of justice, and the Iron Throne her birthright.  

Nothing but death will stop her claim, and definitely not "Aegon".




Neltharion said:


> but there aren't enough dragons alive for that



But all you need is two


----------



## Sferr (Feb 2, 2015)

Jagger said:


> Kevan plays a significant role when it comes to the ruling of House Lannister and the Iron Throne.
> 
> Without Tyrion or Tywin around to keep Cersei at bay, he was the only one that could do the job and he even temporarily refused until he saw how badly the Tyrell were trying to impose their influence.
> 
> Removing him would be a dumb move, but considering Tyrion and Varys seem to be together at Essos, it isn't likely a certain event is going to happen.



Kevan didn't really keep Cersei at bay at all. He came back to KL when she already was imprisoned, tried to fix all the mess that she had created but failed because of an unfortunate crossbow accident. In the end, he didn't do much so I can see why would D&D cut him. And from all the leaked information about season 5, apparently they did, as unfortunate as it is. 


DemonDragonJ said:


> If that is true, then who is the Aegon whom Tyrion met, and is currently building his forces?


Some random guy or maybe a Blackfyre. A pretender, in short. I personally believe that he is Aegon Blackfyre - this would kinda explain Illyrio's and Varys motivations, as well as why would Golden Company - a company that was basically created to kill Targaryens - would help him.




DemonDragonJ said:


> How is that the case? He is the brother of Ned Stark and uncle of all the Stark children, who are all major characters in this series, which should make him important, by extension. Plus, as I have stated numerous times before, Benjen disappeared without a trace, meaning that there currently is no explanation for what happened to him. By this time, I have become accustomed to Martin killing characters without great flair, but leaving such a loose thread as this is unacceptable. Readers are expecting Martin to eventually explain who Jon's mother is, so it only makes sense to expect him to explain what happened to Benjen, as well. If Benjen is dead, why not simply say so, and end the mystery? The fact that Martin has not yet given a clear answer about that means that he almost certainly has further plans for him.


I definitely don't believe that he is dead. There is a reason why Martin continue to remind us that Benjen is missing. That said, he is quite irrelevant, so him being Coldhands would serve no real purpose.



Jagger said:


> There are some theories regarding Young Griff's parentage.
> *Some think he's the actual son of Rhaegar and Lyanna* or some Blackfyre descendant.



That I have never really heard before as a serious theory.


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## Jagger (Feb 2, 2015)

Fruit Monger said:


> It doesn't matter that she isn't cut out as a leader.  She won't be the first person unqualified to lead that is in a leadership position.  What matters is that _she believes_ she's right.  She believes that her claim is the one of truth, her cause being one of justice, and the Iron Throne her birthright.
> 
> Nothing but death will stop her claim, and definitely not "Aegon".


If she has common sense, she shouldn't do so. If anything, if she ever gets to see the kid, she'd probably back down. What Dany wants is the best for Westeros and to take back the Targaryen on the Throne, she knows she isn't a good leader, too much pressure on someone unqualified for the job.

I'd like to believe she will realize this at some point mid-invasion, two Targaryen killing each other just benefits their enemies, in this particular case, Stannis with the North on his side.


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## Brian (Feb 2, 2015)

I'd be fine if they kill each other and Stannis comes riding down with the North to claim his throne

Aegon and Dany should get married and rule in order to rebuild House Targaryen, but I don't think the Martells would stand for it after what happened to Quentyn.


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## Sferr (Feb 2, 2015)

Brian said:


> I'd be fine if they kill each other and Stannis comes riding down with the North to claim his throne



Absolutely agree!


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## Jagger (Feb 2, 2015)

STANNIS THE MANNIS, MOTHERFUCKERS.



I feel the ending it's just going to be Aegon on the Throne with Sansa as the Queen.


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## ~M~ (Feb 2, 2015)

The entire point of A Dance With Dragons seemed to be that Dany is almost completely inept as a leader and really has only made it to this point with luck and brute force. Her experience with Drogon serves to humble her but her pride and ideals are too hard-headed for the gray world of Ice and Fire. 

I don't doubt that she'll come to Westeros and its not far fetched to think she could rule but she has soooooooooo much learning to do. Everything in Meeren she did just made me groan


----------



## Fruit Monger (Feb 2, 2015)

^ I used to think the same, until I read The Meereenese Blot



Check it out if you like, it's LONG, but a great read.  If you're really interested in this series I would highly recommend it.


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## Sferr (Feb 3, 2015)

^ I have read bits of that blog and I agree with some of the points being made there, but in my opinion she still was pretty inept in Meereen. Without judging her decisions, her pure attitude to the ruling in Meereen was just sad. She saw everything in black and white, disrespected Meereenese and their customs and traditions and though more about fucking Daario then ruling. She thought herself as entitled to rule Meereen, but did not care about it or its people that much - she only cared about people she had freed. In the end Meereen looked like a caricature in her POVs - flat and full of bad people. It looked like it because Dany herself saw it like that. Only in Barristan's POVs did Meereen begin to appear as a real city.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 4, 2015)

If I have not stated this before, I have noticed that nearly every major character who has died in this series (most notably Viserys, Robert, Ned, Renly, Robb, Joffrey, and Tywin) has died in a rather anticlimactic manner, while I was expecting that they would all have very spectacular deaths (for those whom I was expecting to die); in fact, Oberyn and Gregor are the only characters whom I can recall having befittingly dramatic deaths.

What does everyone else say about this? Is this another aspect of Martin's writing style, that characters, no matter how important they are to the story, rarely have suitably epic deaths?


----------



## ~M~ (Feb 4, 2015)

I'm going to have to disagree with you on a few cases. 

I feel with Viserys death, calling it anticlimactic is very much an understatement and probably my strongest disagreement. I could tell from the moment that he walked into the sacred land with a sword, drunk and shouting, his pride essentially coming to a climax where his pride (most heroic flaw) leads to him flying too close to the sun, and _gold melting over your head_ is probably the first occurrence I've read in a book. The calmness of Drogo and the laughter of the people only added the incredible cruelty, I honestly had my eyes wide open. Then Dany's response, "He was no dragon, a dragon is not burned" is a big step into maturity where she accepts his pride was his flaw and not a boon. (Why the hell does she then act so proud in A Dance with Dragons??? God that pissed me off). 

Ned's death.... anticlimactic? I dunno. There was a lot of dramatic shift between whether it would occur or not. And then Joffery, who shouldn't have had control of the situation, essentially initiates the War of the Five Kings. I think a beheading on a sacred temple with his daughters watching, leading to war, is an "epic death". But this is all matters of opinion. 

Joffery, his death was bad, but I feel suitable  to die choking on food when greed is your vice and it was a huge mystery which may not be "epic" but it is still climactic. It set off a massive chain of events. It wasn't like it was ignored it came up a ton unlike some other deaths (Rob Stark). 

With Twyin I loved his death, "It turns out that Lord Lannister in fact did not shit gold", might as well be engraved on his gravestone its so fitting. The drama of Tyrion even venturing up into the Red Keep when he's on the run builds suspense and drama, the killing of Shae wasn't very exciting, but to stick Twin in the bowels with a bolt on the toilet (the most human of all activities) is anticlimatic from one point of view that its to show that despite his intelligence he is only a human with flaws. Not to mention GRRM goes even further to suggest he's rotten on the inside with how he stank Baleor's Sept. 

So I'm not sure, we must just have different feelings about climactic or anticlimatic but when a character dies in a fitting manner or an unexpected way it personally excites me.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 4, 2015)

Perhaps those deaths were dramatic, but I would have liked it if each of them had died in an intense one-on-one duel, in traditional fantasy fashion, unless Martin was deliberately attempting to avoid such a common storytelling element.


----------



## Jagger (Feb 5, 2015)

~M~ said:


> With Twyin I loved his death, "It turns out that Lord Lannister in fact did not shit gold", might as well be engraved on his gravestone its so fitting. The drama of Tyrion even venturing up into the Red Keep when he's on the run builds suspense and drama, the killing of Shae wasn't very exciting, but to stick Twin in the bowels with a bolt on the toilet (the most human of all activities) is anticlimatic from one point of view that its to show that despite his intelligence he is only a human with flaws. Not to mention GRRM goes even further to suggest he's rotten on the inside with how he stank Baleor's Sept.


I'm still somewhat salty about his death.

It was so comical that even I started to chuckle, but not even Joffrey, the comically evil character of the series didn't recieve such amusing ending. Don't misinterpret me, though. Tywin deserved death after all of his crimes and the horrendous treatment he gave his own son.

Also, no one says "Lord Lannister", Tywin Lannister sounds more impressive.


----------



## Brian (Feb 5, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Perhaps those deaths were dramatic, but I would have liked it if each of them had died in an intense one-on-one duel, in traditional fantasy fashion, unless Martin was deliberately attempting to avoid such a common storytelling element.



Of course he was, plus I would hate if every death ends in a generic battle, half the guys you mentioned are commanders, not fighters. There is more to a battle then just a sword. 

I enjoyed Tywin's death, it wasn't a death befitting of a major figure like him. It was embarrassing, and for all the things Tywin has done to Tyrion and others he didn't deserve anything glorious. The chapter was nicely written too.


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## ~M~ (Feb 6, 2015)

Jagger said:


> I'm still somewhat salty about his death.
> 
> It was so comical that even I started to chuckle, but not even Joffrey, the comically evil character of the series didn't recieve such amusing ending. Don't misinterpret me, though. Tywin deserved death after all of his crimes and the horrendous treatment he gave his own son.
> 
> Also, no one says "Lord Lannister", Tywin Lannister sounds more impressive.



It was comic in one sense but really the more stinging point is that he died on the toilet (I don't know if you're american but Elvis died on the toilet and its taken as a bit of a symbol of how even the mighty fall) and it hits home that a great leader will die in a mundane way (though still from a weapon of combat) in a way that proves he isn't all he seemed to be. I personally hated Tywin and have a lot of analysis on why he hated whores but that's irrelevant and I know I'm biased and all. 

I'll agree that Jeoffry's death kind of sucks and even retract my earlier statement that it wasn't anticlimactic becauae I do think that he should have suffered for his crimes and really in the end he didn't in the least. 

I said lord lannister because I couldn't remember if the book said that or tywin and I am much too lazy to check


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## Jagger (Feb 6, 2015)

Tywin, as a person, was a cunt that deserved death. I still find him to be one of my favourite characters due his presence as a "villain" and the respect/fear/hatred his image radiated. Tywin's death was handled perfectly well, I never denied that. It's just hit my inner fanboy. 

Also, I personally don't think he hated whores, but saw them as mere objects of pleasure he could control the way he wanted to due the power and wealth he possessed. In other words, he was just stroking his already massive ego by "_buying them_".

He used to reprehend for constantly sleeping with whores because he couldn't think of anything else to downplay Tyrion as a person. Because he's a dwarf? The latter already knows that. Because he's dumb? He's smart as his father. So he took the first chance he got to discret Tyrion.

At least that's my opinion.


----------



## Yoona (Feb 6, 2015)

Brian said:


> I enjoyed Tywin's death, it wasn't a death befitting of a major figure like him. It was embarrassing, and for all the things Tywin has done to Tyrion and others he didn't deserve anything glorious. The chapter was nicely written too.


Same. I liked how it was the opposite of how you'd expect the head of the Lannister family to die plus Tywin lead more dangerous battles so to die how he did was indeed embarassing.


----------



## ~M~ (Feb 6, 2015)

I'm glad you brought up the Tywin whore complex, because I have an incredibly original analysis I'm proud of  

If you remember, Tywin's father, I can't remember his name atm, took his mistress whore into the castle and gave her his deceased wife's clothes, jewels, treatment, and everything. To a boy, when his mom dies and your father replaces her with a whore almost immediately, it was probably a complete shock to his psyche. He loved his mother and everything he thought he knew about being a "proper lord" was turned on it's head. 

So when he came into power he cast his father's concubine out naked, humiliating her in a completely unnecessary and over the top manner to take out his rage on what he saw as whore who killed the memory of his real mother, he couldn't stand the idea that a whore could deserve love or respect and naturally took the opposite psychological stance. 

I think that's why he despised and punished Tyrion for marrying a whore. He had to relive his father's actions all over again and how powerless they made him feel. And that caused him to react in a way just as strong as how he treated his father's mistress. 

But in the end I'm not sure why he was in bed with Shae, again Twyin is only human, a man, so he has flaws, and he's going to have hypocritical flaws. But I really would have thought his life experiences would make him hate whores period.


----------



## Jagger (Feb 6, 2015)

It sounds interesting, but it does have its own flaws.

The secret passages to the whorehouse and the Tower of the Hand were built by Tywin himself (or at least, that's what Varys heavily implies) and the fact he slept with Shae lead us to believe he used to sleep with whores frequently or when he could. Now, why did he punished Tyrion for marrying a whore or sleeping with them?

Well, the most simple answer I can find is that he simply hated Tyrion, his hatred for him is partly caused by his dwarf figure and, of course, Johanna died while giving birth to him. According to Genma (Tywin's sister), the best of him died when his wife passed away, so naturally, hatred will arise from such incident.

Either way, it's true Tytos' actions did have an impact on Tywin's behaviour. After all, his ruthless and humourless nature were probably caused by his father's weakness.


----------



## ~M~ (Feb 6, 2015)

I agree completely that Tywin doesn't hate whores and indulges in them but I think it's just a hypocritical flaw that we all have. He does hate Tyrion despite them having so many similarities and he does enjoy being cruel to him but that can also be a form of him taking out his self-loathing on him. 

Clearly from what he did to Tyrion's wife he has lost all his respect for women. Even his treatment of Cersi inforces that. 

I think it was a combination of his psychological hangup and Tyrion being an easy target


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Feb 6, 2015)

Jagger said:


> The secret passages to the whorehouse and the Tower of the Hand were built by Tywin himself (or at least, that's what Varys heavily implies)


Doesn't Varys say Maegor had them throughout the Red Keep?


----------



## Jagger (Feb 6, 2015)

No, those are different routes.

Varys did say the "_passages were made by a recent Hand of the King whose honor would not allow him to enter such a house openly_".

Fits Tywin for me.


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## hcheng02 (Feb 6, 2015)

Fruit Monger said:


> ^ I used to think the same, until I read The Meereenese Blot
> 
> 
> 
> Check it out if you like, it's LONG, but a great read.  If you're really interested in this series I would highly recommend it.





Sferr said:


> ^ I have read bits of that blog and I agree with some of the points being made there, but in my opinion she still was pretty inept in Meereen. Without judging her decisions, her pure attitude to the ruling in Meereen was just sad. She saw everything in black and white, *disrespected Meereenese and their customs and traditions and though more about fucking Daario then ruling. She thought herself as entitled to rule Meereen, but did not care about it or its people that much - she only cared about people she had freed.* In the end Meereen looked like a caricature in her POVs - flat and full of bad people. It looked like it because Dany herself saw it like that. Only in Barristan's POVs did Meereen begin to appear as a real city.



Yeah, I read the Meereenese Blot essay on Dany and honestly I don't agree with its premise at all. Though I agree that Dany really botched her rule in Meereen, I also think that people who are complaining about Dany disrespecting Meereen's customs and traditions and only caring about the freed slaves are missing the point. Of course she doesn't care about its customs, because its based on slavery. Its like the American Confederate South complaining about the Union North disrespecting its states rights and its "way of life," willfully ignoring that all of it is based on slavery. Those slaves in Meereen (which outnumber the slaveowners about 4 to 1) don't give a shit about Meereen culture since it involves their systematic torture and death. 

I personally recommend this essay which describes Dany's rule in Meereen instead. It gives a good overview of her mistakes as well as shoot down some of the accusations fan's fling at Dany. 



Basically his premise is that Dany's rule is comparable to the US Reconstruction Era of the South after the American Civil War, which was also ultimately botched.


----------



## Jagger (Feb 8, 2015)

I wonder if we will ever get to see Cleganebowl. ;______;


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 18, 2015)

Stannis was planning to use Edric Storm as proof that Cersei's children could not be Robert's, and, therefore, not legitimate heirs to the Iron Throne, but that plot line seems to have been forgotten; why? Has Stannis been too preoccupied at the Wall to focus on undermining the power of House Lannister recently?


----------



## Jagger (Feb 18, 2015)

That's because he doesn't hold the power for anyone to believe him. 

Had he taken King's Landing, that trick would have worked. Otherwise, for the whole realm he's nothing but a desperate rebel trying to take what he think it belongs to him.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 21, 2015)

Jagger said:


> That's because he doesn't hold the power for anyone to believe him.
> 
> Had he taken King's Landing, that trick would have worked. Otherwise, for the whole realm he's nothing but a desperate rebel trying to take what he think it belongs to him.



Are you saying that no one would be rational and simply observant, to notice that Edric resembles Robert, while none of Cersei's children do? Unless someone is blind, there is no way that they would not notice that.


----------



## ~M~ (Feb 21, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Are you saying that no one would be rational and simply observant, to notice that Edric resembles Robert, while none of Cersei's children do? Unless someone is blind, there is no way that they would not notice that.



It's too little too late.


----------



## Jagger (Feb 21, 2015)

Even including the presence of those bastard childrens, it makes no matter.

The Lannisters' hold in the power is currently took weak thanks to Cersei. The Martell, along with Stannis and Aegon/Daenerys is more than enough to bring them down.


----------



## ~M~ (Feb 22, 2015)

I'm not going to bother reading these essays about Danny because I honestly doubt they'll change my opinion that she's not a good leader, in nature. 

What I've gleamed are comparisons between here and Lincoln, the civil war, the problem being that both resulted in WAR and slavery was abolished as a punishment moreso than because it's better than gradual change. 

Gradually changing the culture > starting a ton of wars to cause drastic change. But I guess this is "Game of Thrones"


----------



## Jagger (Feb 22, 2015)

I've never found to be a good leader. 

On the other hand, she's not a bad person. People tend to downplay her feelings and her roots. She was never raised to be a Queen, but a baby factory that will ally the Dothraki with the armies her brother was supposed to gather.

Of course, her brother's delusional thoughts and thirst for power ruined everything, so she was pushed to be something she just wasn't trained to be. Similar to Robb and his kingship.


----------



## ~M~ (Feb 22, 2015)

She's a very good person. Which is why she is such a terrible leader, can't compromise :b 

She's not humble enough yet like a person in power has to be


----------



## Jagger (Feb 23, 2015)

Joffrey was a nice person, yet, he was an excellent king.


----------



## hcheng02 (Feb 23, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Are you saying that no one would be rational and simply observant, to notice that Edric resembles Robert, while none of Cersei's children do? Unless someone is blind, there is no way that they would not notice that.



Lots of people suspect it already but since the Lannisters and Tyrells won the war nobody dares speak up because it would mean getting fucked over by the two richest houses in Westeros. But now that the Lannisters are weakening it might come into play again. Note the number of people calling Cersei a Brotherfucker during the riot and her walk of shame. Clearly some people do believe it.

Also note that some people might also just assume that the children look like their mother. Note that Robb Stark, Bran Stark, Rickon Stark, and Sansa Stark all have Tully features rather than look like Ned Stark. 



~M~ said:


> I'm not going to bother reading these essays about Danny because I honestly doubt they'll change my opinion that she's not a good leader, in nature.
> 
> What I've gleamed are comparisons between here and Lincoln, the civil war, the problem being that both resulted in WAR and slavery was abolished as a punishment moreso than because it's better than gradual change.
> 
> Gradually changing the culture > starting a ton of wars to cause drastic change. But I guess this is "Game of Thrones"



Its more complicated than that. First of all slaves outnumber the slaveholders in most of Essos and they are the majority of the wealth and labor. There's no way that gradually changing the culture was even an option. That's the equivalent of asking every billionaire in the world to just give up their money and assets. Dany's problem is that she is inconsistent and doesn't follow through on her revolution all the way by breaking up the slaveholder's hold on economic power. Just like how in the US the federal government didn't do enough to break up the land from slaveholders and give to the slaves so that they wouldn't become sharecroppers. There's also the part where she doesn't use enough force to kill off and suppress the former slaveowners / Sons of Harpy.


----------



## ~M~ (Feb 23, 2015)

> Its more complicated than that. First of all slaves outnumber the slaveholders in most of Essos and they are the majority of the wealth and labor.


Same situation in south



> Dany's problem is that she is inconsistent and doesn't follow through


I'll agree to this however I probably have different reasons; though I'll agree she never applies enough force.


----------



## hcheng02 (Feb 23, 2015)

~M~ said:


> *Same situation in south*
> 
> 
> I'll agree to this however I probably have different reasons; though I'll agree she never applies enough force.



You mean the South in the USA? Not really, there were actually slightly more free white people than slaves in the USA South. But I would argue that the American Civil War was frankly inevitable since they wouldn't allow any peaceful means for slavery to end. I mean, they pretty much started a mini Civil War in Kansas so slavery could expand.


----------



## ~M~ (Feb 23, 2015)

It's likely I remembered the statistics incorrectly. 

However I think its comparisons and even inevitability of it compared to the Civil war makes Dany's situation in Meeren seem foolish because she sticks to morals when she needed to be a strategist. Do morals or success make a good leader? It's completely subjective but I think Dany should have listened to her westerosi advisors much more closely.


----------



## Sferr (Feb 26, 2015)

~M~ said:


> But in the end I'm not sure why he was in bed with Shae, again Twyin is only human, a man, so he has flaws, and he's going to have hypocritical flaws. But I really would have thought his life experiences would make him hate whores period.



I would actually hold my judgement about Tywin and Shae. In one of the interviews Martin was actually asked about Tywin's hypocrisy regarding whores and Shae. And what Martin answered is that he hadn't yet revealed everything about that scene and that Varys' role should be considered in all this. After this interview, I've started to wonder if Tywin was even aware that Shae was in his bed. 



hcheng02 said:


> Yeah, I read the Meereenese Blot essay on Dany and honestly I don't agree with its premise at all. Though I agree that Dany really botched her rule in Meereen, I also think that people who are complaining about Dany disrespecting Meereen's customs and traditions and only caring about the freed slaves are missing the point. Of course she doesn't care about its customs, because its based on slavery. Its like the American Confederate South complaining about the Union North disrespecting its states rights and its "way of life," willfully ignoring that all of it is based on slavery. Those slaves in Meereen (which outnumber the slaveowners about 4 to 1) don't give a shit about Meereen culture since it involves their systematic torture and death.
> 
> I personally recommend this essay which describes Dany's rule in Meereen instead. It gives a good overview of her mistakes as well as shoot down some of the accusations fan's fling at Dany.
> 
> ...



Not all of their customs are based on slavery. Anyway, my point is that Dany simply did not care about the people she was ruling. But of course you may not care about the people but still rule well. But that wasn't the case with Dany - her not caring about the people led to not genuinely  caring about the ruling itself. It was a bother to her, a lot of her decisions lacked thoughts and any insight because she made them just to be done with it as fast as possible. In the end she become disconnected from the Meereen, having almost no idea what was actually happening there. And a lot was happening under her nose. From Barristan's chapters we found out that there was actually Meereenese game of thrones of sorts that Dany was just not aware of. She was disconnected from it and her rule in the end just failed.


----------



## Jagger (Feb 26, 2015)

Sferr said:


> I would actually hold my judgement about Tywin and Shae. In one of the interviews Martin was actually asked about Tywin's hypocrisy regarding whores and Shae. And what Martin answered is that he hadn't yet revealed everything about that scene and that Varys' role should be considered in all this. After this interview, I've started to wonder if Tywin was even aware that Shae was in his bed. .


Link             ?


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## ~M~ (Feb 26, 2015)

I could see that whole scenario benefiting Varys while he whispers "oh no don't do that",  knowing exactly what Tyrion will actually do


----------



## Fruit Monger (Feb 26, 2015)

I'm of the opinion that Tywin is an avid fan of the whores.  It just makes the Tywin/Tyrion dynamic so much better.  

_I'm you writ small_ is spot on.


----------



## Jagger (Feb 26, 2015)

If Tywin did know Shae was on his bed and willingly slept with her, that makes him even more similar to Tyrion.

I never understood why Tyrion, the supposed "black sheep" of the family, carries the prefix "Ty" in his name. Maybe it was Johanna who named him, after all.


----------



## ~M~ (Feb 26, 2015)

self-loathing


----------



## Sferr (Feb 26, 2015)

Jagger said:


> Link             ?





*Right, and there?s also the surprise at Tywin?s hypocrisy when he finds her in his bed. Did Tywin know she was a prostitute [in the book version that?s not clear]? Or did he just not care?*
Oh, I think Tywin knew about Shae. He probably figured out she was the same camp-follower that he expressly said ?you will not bring that whore to court,? and that Tyrion defied him again and did bring that whore to court. As to precisely what happened here, that?s something I don?t really want to talk about because there?s still aspects of it I haven?t revealed that will be revealed in later books. But the role of Varys in all of this is also something to be considered.



Jagger said:


> I never understood why Tyrion, the supposed "black sheep" of the family, carries the prefix "Ty" in his name. Maybe it was Johanna who named him, after all.



Imo, it became apparent in TWOIAF that "Ty" prefix is not important and means nothing. It's just that many Lannister names start with "Ty" and that's it.


----------



## ~M~ (Feb 26, 2015)

That doesn't change that he could have chose a more distancing name


----------



## Sferr (Feb 26, 2015)

~M~ said:


> That doesn't change that he could have chose a more distancing name



He could , but didn't.  I think it should be percieved as not that it's weird that Tywin named him with a special name, but that if Tywin named him "Tyrion" then this name is not special at all.


----------



## ~M~ (Feb 26, 2015)

Agreed, and it comes down to "He wrote it that way" too. It's poetic justice that they're so similar


----------



## Jagger (Feb 26, 2015)

Sferr said:


> Imo, it became apparent in TWOIAF that "Ty" prefix is not important and means nothing. It's just that many Lannister names start with "Ty" and that's it.


I don't really think so. Who knows. I believe it's kind of similar to the weight the name "Brandon" holds in House Stark after such a famous character from a fairy tale was named like that.

I mean, considering Tywin's father, grandfather and son all possess the prefix "Ty", it should be common to associate it with House Lannister.


----------



## Sferr (Feb 26, 2015)

Jagger said:


> I don't really think so. Who knows. I believe it's kind of similar to the weight the name "Brandon" holds in House Stark after such a famous character from a fairy tale was named like that.
> 
> I mean, considering Tywin's father, grandfather and son all possess the prefix "Ty", it should be common to associate it with House Lannister.



Nah, there are a lot of Lannister kings ans lords listed in TWOIAF and only a small aount of them have "Ty" prefix in their names. The majority of them have their names starting with "L" actually. Also, in the time of Dance of Dragons there were two Lannister twin brothers Jason and Tyland. And Tyland was the second son, meaning his parents chose a name without the prefix for their heir and with it only for the second-born twin.

The fact that Tywin, his father and his grandfather all have prefix "Ty" is probably just a coincidence, that is further proved by the fact that Tywin himself - the man obsessed with Lannister legacy- named his heir without the prefix, and his second-born hated dwarf son with.

Now, names with "Ty" are certainly Lannister names but I really doubt they are considered more special and better than other Lannister names. I don't think it's the same case as with "Brandon" for Starks.


----------



## Jagger (Feb 26, 2015)

I can live to that.

However, as you said, it's probably Martin's way to outright tell us how much Tywin and Tyrion are similar to each other. Their intelligence, cynic thinking, habits and even their names.


----------



## Sferr (Feb 27, 2015)

Jagger said:


> I can live to that.
> 
> However, as you said, it's probably Martin's way to outright tell us how much Tywin and Tyrion are similar to each other. Their intelligence, cynic thinking, habits and even their names.



Yeah, while I believe in-story it's just a coincidence that they have similar names, symbolically it's not a coincidence at all, I agree with that.


----------



## hcheng02 (Mar 1, 2015)

Sferr said:


> Not all of their customs are based on slavery. Anyway, my point is that Dany simply did not care about the people she was ruling. But of course you may not care about the people but still rule well. But that wasn't the case with Dany - her not caring about the people led to not genuinely  caring about the ruling itself. It was a bother to her, a lot of her decisions lacked thoughts and any insight because she made them just to be done with it as fast as possible. In the end she become disconnected from the Meereen, having almost no idea what was actually happening there. And a lot was happening under her nose. From Barristan's chapters we found out that there was actually Meereenese game of thrones of sorts that Dany was just not aware of. She was disconnected from it and her rule in the end just failed.



Most of their culture is based on slavery though. You see it in the symbols (the harpy grasping chains), their work is almost all done by slaves, their tokar dress and hairstyle is deliberately impractical and needs to be held up to show that they don't need to work (since to work is to act like a slave), their entertainment is basically watching slaves getting killed one way or another.

Dany definitely needed better intel and foresight in her actions. I wouldn't say that she did not care since she was willing to get married to a slaver just to get peace and order. However, she was simply too indecisive in her actions.


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## DemonDragonJ (Mar 15, 2015)

hcheng02 said:


> Also note that some people might also just assume that the children look like their mother. Note that Robb Stark, Bran Stark, Rickon Stark, and Sansa Stark all have Tully features rather than look like Ned Stark.



Yes, that does make sense.

Why does Cersei still need to undergo trial by combat? Was not being dragged through the city naked sufficient punishment for her crimes?


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## Jagger (Mar 15, 2015)

Nope, not enough. 

Besides, I think she's the one that asked for a Trial by combat.


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## DemonDragonJ (Mar 15, 2015)

Jagger said:


> Nope, not enough.
> 
> Besides, I think she's the one that asked for a Trial by combat.



Seriously? You actually think that that horrible example of extremely degrading public humiliation was not sufficient?

And why did she ask for trial by combat? Did she not consider that it may go horribly wrong?


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## Jagger (Mar 15, 2015)

Considering all thing Cersei has done so far in the series, I say she deserves every single one of them. Torturing Tyrion during the latter's infancy (not as much as Tywin, though), murdering Robert's bastards, selling the mothers to sexual slavery, plotting to kill Jon Snow and her multiple delusional ideas about being greater than any other human being. She's a cunt. 

Well, it was either that or being found guilty, so asking for a trial by combat was a reasonable thing, specially even more when you have a zombified Gregor Clegane in your side.


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## Jagger (Mar 15, 2015)

Twisting Tyrion's cock until he cried? I remember Oberyn telling such story to Tyrion while he was being imprisoned by Joffrey's murder.

Why did she do it? Resentment towards him for killing their mother, most likely.


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## Fruit Monger (Mar 16, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Why does Cersei still need to undergo trial by combat? Was not being dragged through the city naked sufficient punishment for her crimes?



IIRC, the HS made her do the Penance Walk b/c she admitted to having sex with Lancel and the Kettleblacks.  She's still on trial for the murder of Robert, the previous HS, and other shit.


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## Fierce (Mar 16, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> How did Oberyn know about it? I cannot imagine that Cersei would tell other people about that.



Because he was there...Oberyn and Elia visited Casterly Rock. He tells Tyrion this story.


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## DemonDragonJ (Mar 16, 2015)

Fierce said:


> Because he was there...Oberyn and Elia visited Casterly Rock. He tells Tyrion this story.



It has been some time since I read the books, so I cannot recall every detail.

Also, I checked the dates of their births, and Cersei is seven years older than Tyrion; how had she learned such cruel behavior at such a young age? That is very disturbing.


----------



## Roman (Mar 17, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Not this, again; is there nowhere on this forum where I can be free of such behavior?
> 
> As for your response, when I was seven years old, I never committed such cruel acts; in fact, I could not even conceive of such actions. Doing such a thing to a newborn infant was an idea that my younger self would not be able to even comprehend, let alone execute, so I shall admit that the idea of another child being able to do such a thing is one that I find to be difficult to process.



Not every child is going to be like you were. Same goes for anyone else. Granted, it's rare, but it can happen. You being a certain way doesn't mean it's a standard everyone else in the world should adhere to.


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## Brian (Mar 17, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Not this, again; is there nowhere on this forum where I can be free of such behavior?
> 
> As for your response, when I was seven years old, I never committed such cruel acts; in fact, I could not even conceive of such actions. Doing such a thing to a newborn infant was an idea that my younger self would not be able to even comprehend, let alone execute, so I shall admit that the idea of another child being able to do such a thing is one that I find to be difficult to process.



it's not just Cersei look at what Gregor did to his brother when he was a kid just for playing with his toy.  Joffery cutting open a cat's belly just to win Robert's approval when he was a child.


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## Jυstin (Mar 17, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Not this, again; is there nowhere on this forum where I can be free of such behavior?
> 
> As for your response, when I was seven years old, I never committed such cruel acts; in fact, I could not even conceive of such actions. Doing such a thing to a newborn infant was an idea that my younger self would not be able to even comprehend, let alone execute, so I shall admit that the idea of another child being able to do such a thing is one that I find to be difficult to process.




When my "cousin" was a child, around the age of 7 or so, knowing full well the difference between right and wrong, he intentionally slammed a door on a kitten's head to kill it.

In fact he had quite a few of them killed.

He did it just for the pleasure of doing it. Amazing how he turned out, considering that's early serial killer behavior there.


----------



## santanico (Mar 17, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Seriously? You actually think that that horrible example of extremely degrading public humiliation was not sufficient?
> 
> And why did she ask for trial by combat? Did she not consider that it may go horribly wrong?



sounds like you haven't read the books at all


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## Sferr (Mar 24, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> It has been some time since I read the books, so I cannot recall every detail.
> 
> Also, I checked the dates of their births, and Cersei is seven years older than Tyrion; how had she learned such cruel behavior at such a young age? That is very disturbing.



Cersei is a born psychopath. In her chapters she remembered one more instance, where she tortured baby Tyrion just because she was told that one Targaryen king once imprisoned his sisters because they were too beautiful.
She was also threatening Castorly Rock servants to order their tongues cut off or something like that if they did not listen to her.
Cersei also killed her best friend at the age of 9 or 10, because the friend said she liked Jaime. Yeah...

One might wonder why did it take for Jaime to get his hand cut off to realize what a bitch Cersei truly is. Probably even Sansa was not as naive as he was, lol.


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## Jagger (Mar 24, 2015)

Love blinds people. Cersei, somehow, sucessfully managed to manipulate Jaime into loving her unconditionally, so yeah.

I guess it's more the fact she replaced him so quickly after being imprisoned than the actual act of losing his hand what slapped him back into reality.


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## Sferr (Mar 24, 2015)

Jagger said:


> Love blinds people. Cersei, somehow, sucessfully managed to manipulate Jaime into loving her unconditionally, so yeah.
> 
> I guess it's more the fact she replaced him so quickly after being imprisoned than the actual act of losing his hand what slapped him back into reality.



Well, I would say more like Cersei was successfully retaining the false image of her in Jaime's head. Which I guess was not hard, given the fact that Jaime believed that she was incapable of lying to him, lol. Oh, Jaime...

Jaime finally ditched her after Lancel's confession, yeah, but it's, imo, apparent that he started to finally, maybe slowly and more subconsciously see the truth about Cersei once he returned to KL. Little thoughts like "she gives but I must ask" started to cross his mind since their reunion.


----------



## Mickey Mouse (Mar 25, 2015)

Even though I just read and caught up with the series last year I should probably refresh my memory for Winds of Winter...WHENEVER THAT SHOULD COME OUT!

 Also all of the books in the series I have not read.


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## BigPoppaPump (Mar 25, 2015)

So I'm midway through a Dance With Dragons and damn has this series fallen off. Books 4 & 5 are massive step downs from the first 3 books, I'm struggling to even stay interested in this book now it's taking me weeks to read it. 

Although I'll reserve my judgement because these books seem to be precludes to something big happening in the next one, GRRM has a real talent for writing filler.


----------



## Fruit Monger (Mar 25, 2015)

BigPoppaPump said:


> So I'm midway through a Dance With Dragons and damn has this series fallen off. Books 4 & 5 are massive step downs from the first 3 books, I'm struggling to even stay interested in this book now it's taking me weeks to read it.
> 
> Although I'll reserve my judgement because these books seem to be precludes to something big happening in the next one, GRRM has a real talent for writing filler.



Yea, AFFC and ADWD will do that to you.  And if you thought this was tough, Books 4 & 5 were originally one massive book which got edited, and edited, and eventually became two separate books.  

I wouldn't call it filler, there's a lot of world building (especially in Essos), and scheming in these last two books.  ASOS had deaths of many key players, slowing down the War of the Five Kings.  

The end of ADWD finishes strong, and once you complete it, you'll see that there will be a LOT to look forward to in _The Winds of Winter_ (Book 6).


*Spoiler*: _TWOW_ 



- Battle of Ice: Stannis vs Winterfell 
- Battle of Fire: Dany's Forces vs Slavers
- Jaime/Brienne/Lady Stoneheart
- Aegon VI vs Storm's End
- Cersei and Margery's Trial
- Dany and Drogon vs Dothraki
- Ironborn pillaging Oldtown
- Sansa's possible marriage to Harry the Heir
- Mercy
- Bran and weirwood.net 

and more.


----------



## aaaaa (Mar 25, 2015)

Another person joins the club of waiting for TWoW to finally deliver. Can it even be done now.


----------



## Rios (Apr 1, 2015)

goddamnit


----------



## Torpedo Titz (Apr 1, 2015)

Meh, Preston Jacobs seems to pilfer Westeros.org theories (some of the more farfetched ones - at that) and sell them as his own. The Dornish Masterplan has been around for years.


----------



## Jagger (Apr 1, 2015)

A bit far fetched at certain points, IMO.


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## Fruit Monger (Apr 2, 2015)

Just released, Alayne I from TWOW






*Spoiler*: __ 



*EDIT:* Quite possibly the most entertaining Sansa chapter I've read.  Then again, it's been a long time.

- Order of Winged Knights and the Tourney is a creative idea.  
- LF keeping his food supplies despite being able to sell at an inflated prices...looks like he's either really scared of Winter or he's just prepping for the Vale's knights and garrisons.  If it's the latter, I wonder how soon they will mobilize.
- Myranda Royce is funny, but she won't like it that Sansa is snatching up Harry.
- Ser Shadrich might know who Alayne really is. 

_“Should we ever wed, you’ll have to send Saffron back to her father. I’ll be all the spice you’ll want.”_  Sansa you saucy wench


----------



## santanico (Apr 2, 2015)

*Spoiler*: _Alayne Spoilers_ 



I had so much fun reading that. Sansa, you've grown


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Apr 3, 2015)

[sp=Alayne Spoilers]That sample chapter was very nice; I see that Littlefinger's plan seems to be working, thus far, but, I have learned in this series that if something seems to be going well for the protagonist, that is usually a sign that something very bad is about to happen.

Will Sansa's true identity be exposed, I hope not? It is a remarkable coincidence that she has not yet encountered anyone who knows her from before, but that may change, with so many people gathered at the Eyrie.

I see that young Robert seems to be more astute that one would expect from a young boy his age; I also like how he did not care about whether or not a person's parents were married when that person was born, as that is very progressive and open-minded thinking for a brutal and close-minded world such as this, but it is very unfortunate that such beliefs will likely be unpopular and difficult to support.

I now am more eager than ever for this book, so I really hope that Martin finishes it, soon.[/sp]


----------



## Jagger (Apr 6, 2015)

Sansa. 

I'm surprised how calm the Vale currently is considering the rest of the realm is torn apart and the number of events happening across different points.


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## DemonDragonJ (Apr 6, 2015)

I have been wondering: why does Martin spell "ser" with an "E," instead of with an "I," as is normal for that word? Is he doing it to make the word seem more esoteric for his series?


----------



## Mider T (Apr 6, 2015)

That's how it was originally spelled in our history, either in Latin or Old English.


----------



## Aduro (Apr 6, 2015)

Alayne Spoilers


*Spoiler*: __ 




What I took away:

Meh, Sansa has only got seduction and basic manipulation down. She's more like a "not-evil-yet" Cersei than Littlefinger. 
We've seen the Mad Mouse before, Brienne met him and he admitted he is also looking for Sansa for Varys' gold. He could complicate matters by if he tries to bring Sanso to Tyrion so Dany would have allies with somewhat rightful claims to the North and the Westerlands.
I think Littlefinger will act in a big way soon. He probably plans on revealing Sansa's true identity, letting Robert Arryn die and replacing Tyrion with Harry as her husband. Sansa already has Harry begging his favour, and he will want her claim to the North. Arryn could die any minute so he could have the brat poisoned and Sansa's marriage to Tyrion was forced and unconsummated so it could be set aside by a septon. 
Then the night after Harry marries her he can finally shag Sansa and get over his Catelyn stark issues and his inferiority complex.


----------



## Jagger (May 29, 2016)

GRRM just read a new Damphair chapter at a convention.



Check this guy's tweets if you want to some of the details about it. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Euron with a Valyrian armour sounds fucking awesome.


----------



## Jagger (May 29, 2016)

_BRUH_


----------



## Fruit Monger (May 29, 2016)

Fuckin. Amazing.


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (May 30, 2016)

Euron has always been one of those characters that had the potential to become a top favorite for me. I'm conflicted with this chapter in that sense as it is quite up his alley from what we've seen before but goddamn child molester man. Lord knows Littlefinger has done some very morally corrupt things and hes a top three favorite so I don't know if this feeling will stick when reading TWOW chapters where Euron is featured. There is just something about knowing that the character has directly done this kind of thing and gloats about it. Petyr works indirectly.


----------



## Fruit Monger (May 30, 2016)

I don't know the legality of it, but this guy posted the full transcript of _The Forsaken_: 
Project Gutenburg free e-book


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Jun 1, 2016)

Read the whole thing. Those who chose Arianne over this should rightly feel like fools. While the Damphair himself isn't the most interesting PoV going by his own thoughts, the value of his chapters like a few of the other PoVs are the events he is witness to. An Aeron PoV for TWOW was going to have info on Euron, one of the most badass mofos in all Westeros. They were probably hoping for more on Young Griff with the Arianne chapter but George isn't going to reveal anything too big with that storyline with a sample chapter.


----------



## hcheng02 (Jul 2, 2016)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Read the whole thing. Those who chose Arianne over this should rightly feel like fools. While the Damphair himself isn't the most interesting PoV going by his own thoughts, the value of his chapters like a few of the other PoVs are the events he is witness to. An Aeron PoV for TWOW was going to have info on Euron, one of the most badass mofos in all Westeros. They were probably hoping for more on Young Griff with the Arianne chapter but George isn't going to reveal anything too big with that storyline with a sample chapter.



Man that chapter completely changes my perspective on Euron. I thought Euron never actually went to Valyria and was just some bluffer who got his hands on some magic artifacts since he ran off in a huff after Rodrick the Reader questioned him. But based on Aeron's visions and the Valyrian steel suit armour he might actually be a a real menace.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 2, 2016)

Euron

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bontakun (Feb 1, 2017)

Fruit Monger said:


> The end of ADWD finishes strong, and once you complete it, you'll see that there will be a LOT to look forward to in _The Winds of Winter_ (Book 6).
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _TWOW_
> ...



As well as

*Spoiler*: __ 



Jon's corpse being tossed over the wall, turning into a White Walker, then returning as Undead Lord Commander who solves two problems in one, by recruiting his white walker pals to defend the wall.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 1, 2017)

Martin has said that _The Winds of Winter_ may possibly be released, this year, but, given that he has been vague about release dates, before, I presume that it is safe for use to presume that martin's word should not be taken as a guarantee in this situation?

Also, given that the television series has been deviating from the books, will Martin continue to write the books as he chooses to do so, and not allow the immense popularity of the television series affect how he writes the remaining two books?


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## Bontakun (Feb 2, 2017)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Martin has said that _The Winds of Winter_ may possibly be released, this year, but, given that he has been vague about release dates, before, I presume that it is safe for use to presume that martin's word should not be taken as a guarantee in this situation?
> 
> Also, given that the television series has been deviating from the books, will Martin continue to write the books as he chooses to do so, and not allow the immense popularity of the television series affect how he writes the remaining two books?


He said the same thing last year, so who knows? There's a probability that it's not gonna be released again this year. Though he's already released 7 or 8 preview chapters in various channels.

He'll definitely stick with whatever plan he's got. If it happens to go in the same direction as the TV Series, it only means that he told the TV Series writers ahead of time what he was planning. I don't think a writer would change his story to match something that's essentially a fan reproduction.


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## Seraphiel (Feb 2, 2017)

It's never gonna get released, the fat fuck is gonna die before he finishes it and I'm perfectly okay with it.


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## DemonDragonJ (Feb 2, 2017)

Seraphiel said:


> It's never gonna get released, the fat fuck is gonna die before he finishes it and I'm perfectly okay with it.



I am not okay with that; I wish to know how the story ends, what fates ultimately befall the characters, and if there are any significant changes in the world.


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## Fruit Monger (Feb 2, 2017)

Bontakun said:


> He'll definitely stick with whatever plan he's got. If it happens to go in the same direction as the TV Series, it only means that he told the TV Series writers ahead of time what he was planning. I don't think a writer would change his story to match something that's essentially a fan reproduction.



Yea, the show producers know broad strokes, which is why they consolidated certain plot lines in the show (example: Stannis and Jon).


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## Aduro (Feb 2, 2017)

Fruit Monger said:


> Yea, the show producers know broad strokes, which is why they consolidated certain plot lines in the show (example: Stannis and Jon).


Its not just that they only know broad strokes. I think they know quite a few details but they have to cut out major characters to streamline the story. For example there's no way they didn't know about 'Young Griff', but they still cut him out. And he's probably going to be a major character in the next book at least. Hell they scrambled to include Euron at the last minute and in the books he's being built as a major threat to the Seven Kingdoms.

Anway, I think GRRM has generally made it clear that he writes what he wants to write without being swayed by fans or the show. He made a point of releasing the Mercy chapter before the episode that was based off of those events to show that he was the one who chose to have Arya join the mummers as part of her faceless man training. Fans of the book and show are mostly used to them being very different at times.


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## Stannis (Oct 16, 2017)

>tfw you'll never hear TWOW in Roy Dotrice's voice 

RIP


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## Mickey Mouse (Oct 16, 2017)

With all due respect to that person the only reason this thread should be bumped is for the actual goddamn date for the book!

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 17, 2017)

One thing that bothers me about this series is how women are treated as being inferior to men and children born out of wedlock are despised by society; I understand that that is how things were in the actual medieval days, but that is one instance where Martin could have deviated from history, because he is writing the books in a time when men and women are supposedly equals and very few people care about the marital status of one's parents, so I imagine that some readers may not like those elements of his books.


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## SSMG (Nov 15, 2017)

Well they are treated as such by some of the men, but usually the women in this series proves them wrong. Dany Cersei and Arya basically spit in the face of women being inferior to men.

The weddlock and martial thing is just him making the setting more realistic. Similar to i*c*st in this series and i*c*st irl among royal families back in the day. Not many readers agree with that nor practice that but we roll with it because it makes the setting more fitting to the times.


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## Mider T (Aug 9, 2019)

BIG NEWS


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 9, 2019)

haha that guy is a joker

implying he will ever get that far


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## DemonDragonJ (Oct 17, 2019)

Why does Martin not simply hire a co-author to help him with the books, as happened when Robert Jordan died and Brandon Sanderson finished _The Wheel of Time?_


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## Mider T (Dec 24, 2019)

New map


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 16, 2022)

Since there was no recent (or functioning) discussion thread on the matter, thought it would be good to open one up here.



> A Song of Ice and Fire is a series of epic fantasy novels by the American novelist and screenwriter George R. R. Martin. He began the first volume of the series, A Game of Thrones, in 1991, and it was published in 1996. Martin, who initially envisioned the series as a trilogy, has published five out of a planned seven volumes. The fifth and most recent volume of the series, A Dance with Dragons, was published in 2011, six years after the publication of the preceding book, A Feast for Crows. He is currently writing the sixth novel, The Winds of Winter. A seventh novel, A Dream of Spring, is planned.
> 
> A Song of Ice and Fire takes place on the fictional continents Westeros and Essos. The point of view of each chapter in the story is a limited perspective of a range of characters growing from nine in the first novel, to 31 characters by the fifth novel. Three main stories interweave: a dynastic war among several families for control of Westeros, the rising threat of the supernatural Others in northernmost Westeros, and the ambition of the deposed king's exiled daughter to assume the Iron Throne.
> 
> ...



So, I ask all of you, thoughts about the series? Who are your favorite characters and house? Is a certain dragon prince the real deal or is he at least somewhat fake? Is Bloodraven really the Three-Eyed Crow? What do you make of the Others and their motives, and what do you believe will be Jon Snow's journey in books to come? What are your unpopular opinions or ideas about the books or characters? Do you see the books ending like the show mostly or will there be massive differences? 

Talk about the show, prequels, and prequel show is fine, but PLEASE *try to stay on topic and concentrate on the books*.

Fire away  

@WorldsStrongest @A Optimistic @ObitoOfTheOrangeMask @SuperSaiyaMan12 @Santoryu @Djomla @Siskebabas @Mider T @Ruthless Tsuchikage @Aduro @Jagger @Draco Bolton @Capa13 @Soldierofficial

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mider T (Mar 16, 2022)

This thread already exists in this section I think


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 16, 2022)

Mider T said:


> This thread already exists in this section I think



The one I found was more than two years old and the last post, similar


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 17, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I ask all of you, thoughts about the series?


Its aight

Tho I speak mostly from a TV perspective as Ive really only skimmed the books  

Excuse me for not wanting to wait 11 fucking years for a follow up installment in between books

At this rate Ill be dead before GRRM finishes 

I mean sure Season 8 was a shitshow but GRRMs pacing is hardly in better shape


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Who are your favorite characters


Oberyn 

After him prolly Tywin

Then Tyrion or Robb

Neds great too but honestly hes a copout answer...hes kinda tailor made to be really likable in order to be the first big subversion of tropes and expectations...Hes the traditional Fantasy Hero dude whos so morally upright and honorable that he damn near solves all the Verses problems in like 1 season...Then bam...He gets Sean Bean'ed

Lets you know no one is safe


Aegon Targaryen said:


> house?


Despite 2 of my top 3 characters being Lions, the only real answer to this question is House Stark  

But Im also Canadian so theres a bit of SI bias there perhaps  

Short of fucking Iceland where they shot a lot of the Show? You cant really find a better stand-in for Northerners than Canadians imo




Aegon Targaryen said:


> Is a certain dragon prince the real deal or is he at least somewhat fake?


Daemon Blackfyre is indeed the real deal  

Really hope that in the upcoming prequel series, they do the Blackfyre Rebellions and we get to see my boy beat wholesale ass

I also feel like Rhaegar is hella unexplored but maybe thats done better in the books 


Aegon Targaryen said:


> What do you make of the Others


From a show standpoint they were goin great till they went South

Guess Starks arent the only ones who dont fare great with that direction  

But seriously tho their mystery and intrigue was great, only issue was obviously the payoff 


Aegon Targaryen said:


> What are your unpopular opinions or ideas about the books or characters?


Robb is better in the Show  

Dont know if thats really unpopular as GRRM himself also said so, but yeah




Aegon Targaryen said:


> Do you see the books ending like the show mostly or will there be massive differences?


Dont see em ending tbh

I say GRRM has abandoned them and is literally just taking a knee and running out the clock till he dies as opposed to giving an official statement on the matter

Like I said...its been 11 years since the last one dropped and he has 2 more goddamn books planned?

id say the failure of Season 8 really hurt the dude (considering I imagine he was working around to the exact same ending...Albeit he would have handled it better, Id still say everyone is heading for the same place at the end more or less) and he lost all drive to see it through.


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## Mider T (Mar 17, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I say GRRM has abandoned them and is literally just taking a knee and running out the clock till he dies as opposed to giving an official statement on the matter


He posts passages of Winds of Winter all the time and gives updates.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Excuse me for not wanting to wait 11 fucking years for a follow up installment in between


You're excused.


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## A Optimistic (Mar 17, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> What are your unpopular opinions or ideas about the books or characters?



I don’t like how Daeron 2 gets all the credit for Dorne joining the Seven Kingdoms when Daeron 1 did like 50% of the work or more.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 17, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> I don’t like how Daeron 2 gets all the credit for Dorne joining the Seven Kingdoms when Daeron 1 did like 50% of the work or more.


Thats a very specific gripe

Reactions: Funny 1


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## A Optimistic (Mar 17, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats a very specific gripe



daeron 1 is awesome, Daeron 2 is underrated 

rob stark is actually based on Daeron 1, so you’re obligated to defend the young dragon alongside me

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Garcher (Mar 17, 2022)

I dont't want to discuss this shit until the next book comes out. (never)


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 17, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> *rob* stark


I have no idea who that is

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Garcher (Mar 17, 2022)

general opinion: the first 2-3 books are very good (although many elements of borrowed from real history, war of the roses especially). afterwards GRRM kept aimlessly furthering the plot without any plan how to tie it all together again and now he can't finish the books anymore.

the series started sucking once they ran out ouf source material (after season 4), as well, because obviously ending GRRM's mess was too much for D&D as well. the ending is plain stupid. An elective monarchy can only be viewed as progress if you have some very fundamentalist believe in the superiority of democracy (or rather elections in this case) in any form (that's the average american audience though I guess)

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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 17, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> daeron 1 is awesome, Daeron 2 is underrated
> 
> rob stark is actually based on Daeron 1, so you’re obligated to defend the young dragon alongside me



Is that an endorsement of Robb the Young Wolf or a case against Daeron the Young Dragon? 



Garcher said:


> general opinion: the first 2-3 books are very good (although many elements of borrowed from real history, war of the roses especially). afterwards GRRM kept aimlessly furthering the plot without any plan how to tie it all together again and now he can't finish the books anymore



Kinda agree. GRRM's "gardening" seems to have caught up with him, if not overtaken him. IMO, dude needed to chisel out the broad contours of his story ahead of time, and keep things a bit more minimalist. Appreciate the crazy worldbuilding and lore with all the different Houses, places, and times, but there's gotta be a real limit there.



Garcher said:


> the series started sucking once they ran out ouf source material (after season 4), as well, because obviously ending GRRM's mess was too much for D&D as well. the ending is plain stupid. An elective monarchy can only be viewed as progress if you have some very fundamentalist believe in the superiority of democracy (or rather elections in this case) in any form (that's the average american audience though I guess)



This, though I would also argue D&D ditching GRRM instead of continuing to work closely with him was a problem too. As for the elective monarchy part, idk if it actually ended well in real life (IIRC, it did not)...maybe it's not necessarily supposed to in ASOIAF/GoT either? These stories really seem subject to alternative character or event interpretation.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 17, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Its aight
> 
> Tho I speak mostly from a TV perspective as Ive really only skimmed the books



Fair 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Excuse me for not wanting to wait 11 fucking years for a follow up installment in between books
> 
> At this rate Ill be dead before GRRM finishes
> 
> I mean sure Season 8 was a shitshow but GRRMs pacing is hardly in better shape



Have to agree. I feel the show rushed things while the book...did the complete and equally awful opposite haha.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Oberyn
> 
> After him prolly Tywin
> 
> Then Tyrion or Robb





WorldsStrongest said:


> Neds great too but honestly hes a copout answer...hes kinda tailor made to be really likable in order to be the first big subversion of tropes and expectations...Hes the traditional Fantasy Hero dude whos so morally upright and honorable that he damn near solves all the Verses problems in like 1 season...Then bam...He gets Sean Bean'ed



Good choices, no one I haven't seen before.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Lets you know no one is safe
> 
> Despite 2 of my top 3 characters being Lions, the only real answer to this question is House Stark
> 
> ...



Cool 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Daemon Blackfyre is indeed the real deal
> 
> Really hope that in the upcoming prequel series, they do the Blackfyre Rebellions and we get to see my boy beat wholesale ass
> 
> ...



Daemon Blackfyre seems cool enough, though I'm more intrigued by Daemon_ Targaryen_ to be frank. Dude seems to have much more of an interesting character, basically a Targaryen Jaime but more evil.

About Blackfyre, I do wonder about his motivations. Did he really keep loving Daenerys after she married Daeron, as his supporters allege? How much of his rebellion against Daeron, who otherwise gave him great respect and lands (IIRC), was motivated by actual hunger for power, instigations by Fireball and Bittersteel, anti-Dornish sentiment, and/or a genuine belief he should be King due to being Aegon IV's "true son"? Was he really as badass as people say he was or was he an overhyped figure?

Fair. Rhaegar is interesting, I feel he's meant to be somewhat sympathetic but I don't think GRRM intends for us to agree with his ideas on prophecy or actions in the end. That prophecy is basically a glass sword is something he keeps repeating...still, a glass sword can help.

At times.



WorldsStrongest said:


> But seriously tho their mystery and intrigue was great, only issue was obviously the payoff



Agreed completely. Tbf I'm not sure GRRM will be any better, his take on who hired the assassin to kill Bran is unironically worse than what the show did, and I suppose it is realistic enough that some massive mysteries may have a surprisingly banal and "disappointing" explanation.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Robb is better in the Show



I don't think this is unpopular at all lol (well, not mostly). Robb is indeed far more badass on the show, he comes off as genuinely confident and in control instead of needing Cat or Luwin to tell him what's what all the time and wetting himself because of his confrontation with Greatjon Umber. On the other hand, Show!Robb's decision to marry Talisa was a lot more inexplicable and flat out stupid than Book!Robb marrying Jeyne to ensure her children don't suffer from being bastards like Jon did, which was sweet but still sad and ultimately cost him everything still.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Dont know if thats really unpopular as GRRM himself also said so, but yeah



Did he? I do know GRRM regretted not making Robb a POV character. At any rate, wouldn't be surprised, Richard Madden was AMAZING. Maybe they should've cast him as Jon instead lol. 

Don't dislike Kit Harrington, he has good(ish) moments, but he ultimately didn't really being to Jon the complexity and maturity of his book self.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Dont see em ending tbh
> 
> I say GRRM has abandoned them and is literally just taking a knee and running out the clock till he dies as opposed to giving an official statement on the matter
> 
> ...



Fair. I wouldn't be surprised tbh, GoT had a shit ending and there's only so much you can polish a turd. GRRM seems more interested in building history than the present.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 17, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> I don’t like how Daeron 2 gets all the credit for Dorne joining the Seven Kingdoms when Daeron 1 did like 50% of the work or more.



Daeron I got Robb-ed though, would you really say he succeeded at even that much? His military victories didn't seem to actually amount to anything. IIRC, Baelor was the one who really helped warm relations with Dorne, and Daeron II finished the job.


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## A Optimistic (Mar 17, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Daeron I got Robb-ed though, would you really say he succeeded at even that much? His military victories didn't seem to actually amount to anything. IIRC, Baelor was the one who really helped warm relations with Dorne, and Daeron II finished the job.



get ready to argue when I’m home from work

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Garcher (Mar 17, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> idk if it actually ended well in real life (IIRC, it did not)...maybe it's not necessarily supposed to in ASOIAF/GoT either?


One of the key components of GRRM's story telling was always being "realistic" and exploring what it actually means in practice to rule

An elective monarchy usually meant that there is even more struggle between the powerful nobility (rather than reconciling conflicting interests what makes democracies stable). Historically those elections always caused problems and led to GoT-style civil wars. Having hereditary succession and strong central authority of the King was actually progress that made countries more stable.

In GoT the wars were also caused by too strong, independent acting vassals that all had their own agenda. So how does giving them even more power fix anything in the long-run?

Reactions: Informative 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 17, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Rhaegar is interesting, I feel he's meant to be somewhat sympathetic but I don't think GRRM intends for us to agree with his ideas on prophecy or actions in the end. That prophecy is basically a glass sword is something he keeps repeating...still, a glass sword can help.


Theres apparently an interview floating around that debunks this

Apparently GRRM said hes “writing a fantasy story with the hero being dead from the start”

Referring to Rhaegar

Dont know how legit that is tho


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Richard Madden was AMAZING. Maybe they should've cast him as Jon instead lol.
> 
> Don't dislike Kit Harrington, he has good(ish) moments, but he ultimately didn't really being to Jon the complexity and maturity of his book self.


Dont like Kit as an actor at all

The dude has no range and makes Jon monotone and one note for basically every scene hes in

Richard would have been a better Jon as hes just a better actor period  

Tho if they swapped roles Id probably dislike Robb so pros/cons there

Reactions: Informative 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 17, 2022)

Obligatory “LOTR >>>” post btw 

Tho I think most folk know that considering thats just the rule of law for the fantasy genre tbh

Everything by Tolkien > anything else

Also, its been discussed to death Im sure but how stupid is it that GRRM said Tolkien “got it wrong” by not telling us what King Aragorns fucking tax policies were  

His opinions on the entire world post LOTR just read like someone who never actually read the books…As a lot of the shit he has problems with IS answered by Tolkien

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Jagger (Mar 17, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> get ready to argue when I’m home from work


All Daeron I accomplished was getting himself murdered in the sands of Dorne.

True fax right here.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Garcher (Mar 17, 2022)

Afaik Martin himself has never said "Tolkien got it wrong", He just basically said that he wrote Asioaf as sort of an antithesis to LotR that tries to deal with things that the usual (Tolkien-inspired) fantasy doesn't deal with . it's the Asioaf fanboys who try to argue that Martin's writing is "more clever" or "better" simply because they don't understand what makes Tolkien so great and what he tried to create with his writing. At best you can say Martin manages to be more entertaining in certain ways , but his work will never have the beauty, ingenuity and reread value of Tolkien.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## A Optimistic (Mar 17, 2022)

Jagger said:


> All Daeron I accomplished was getting himself murdered in the sands of Dorne.
> 
> True fax right here.



you mean he accomplished conquering dorne. Something aegon failed to do with even 3 dragons 

dorne would not be part of the seven kingdoms if Daeron didn’t conquer it, even if the conquering didn’t last


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## A Optimistic (Mar 17, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Daeron I got Robb-ed though, would you really say he succeeded at even that much? His military victories didn't seem to actually amount to anything.



He managed to do something Aegon couldn’t with 3 dragons. It’s one of the most military impressive feats in the series.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> IIRC, Baelor was the one who really helped warm relations with Dorne, and Daeron II finished the job.



Do you beikeve Baelor and Daeron could have had Dorne join the seven kingdoms if Daeron 1 never conquered it?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 17, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> He managed to do something Aegon couldn’t with 3 dragons. It’s one of the most military impressive feats in the series.



And then he died.



A Optimistic said:


> Do you beikeve Baelor and Daeron could have had Dorne join the seven kingdoms if Daeron 1 never conquered it?



Hard to say for certain, but not unlikely.


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## A Optimistic (Mar 17, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> And then he died.



4 years after the conquest. Does Rob dying invalidate Whispering Wood? People die, it’s life. Doesn’t erase their good or bad deeds.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Hard to say for certain, but not unlikely.



I’d say it’s impossible. House Martells words are unbowed, unbent, unbroken. That’s what the Yellow Toad told Aegon’s sister when she came to Sunspear. Nobody wants to be known as the prince or princess that contradicted house martell’s words. Daeron 1 forcing the prince of sunspear and 40 high lords to bend the knee gave precedent and allowed a future prince of Dorne to later also bend the knee.

of course I can’t prove this but I feel it makes sense if you take into context how obsessed they are with their house words to the point not even years of dragons burning down their country can change their minds 

I’d say baelor and Daeron 2 handled the political side well, but daeron 1’s conquest allowed them to be the position to do that.

so I’d give Daeron 1 50% of the credit, while giving Baelor 25% and Daeron 2 the remaining 25 %

also Daeron 2 is an awful character but that’s a rant for another post tomorrow

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 17, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> 4 years after the conquest. Does Rob dying invalidate Whispering Wood?



Some would argue it does. I don't necessarily disagree.



A Optimistic said:


> People die, it’s life



Dying at the age of 80 with your love next to you is different from being assassinated by your enemy though lol. 



A Optimistic said:


> Doesn’t erase their good or bad deeds



True, but we're not discussing morality here, are we? We're discussing if Daeron's actions helped his successors.



A Optimistic said:


> I’d say it’s impossible. House Martells words are unbowed, unbent, unbroken



But wouldn't this just mean cowing House Martell by military force is undoable and you have to seek other means (peaceful ones, as Baelor and Daeron attempted)? 

In fact, one of the Martells IIRC refused to let Baelor be killed by their men while coming to/going back from Dorne because they realized doing so would piss off everyone else against them.



A Optimistic said:


> That’s what the Yellow Toad told Aegon’s sister when she came to Sunspear. Nobody wants to be known as the prince or princess that contradicted house martell’s words. Daeron 1 forcing the prince of sunspear and 40 high lords to bend the knee gave precedent and allowed a future prince of Dorne to later also bend the knee



It's possible, I can't say for certain. 

I just doubt it.



A Optimistic said:


> I’d say baelor and Daeron 2 handled the political side well, but daeron 1’s conquest allowed them to be the position to do that.
> 
> so I’d give Daeron 1 50% of the credit, while giving Baelor 25% and Daeron 2 the remaining 25 %



Even if we do assume Daeron helped (which is a big if), I'd hesitate to give him more than 25%. IMO, Baelor and Daeron individually and together outdo him.



A Optimistic said:


> also Daeron 2 is an awful character but that’s a rant for another post tomorrow



Looking forward to reading it!


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## DemonDragonJ (Mar 17, 2022)

I am still waiting for _The Winds of Winter,_ but, whenever that book is released, there shall still be one more book in the series, _A Dream of Spring,_ and there is now way to know how long it shall take for Martin to write that book; why does Martin not hire a co-author? Surely, that would be beneficial for him?


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## A Optimistic (Mar 17, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Some would argue it does. I don't necessarily disagree.



Well I do disagree. Rob getting killed at the Red Wedding doesn't invalidate him outsmarting the shit of out Tywin and Jaime at Whispering Wood. Those two events are not connected. Neither does Daeron 1 getting killed four years later invalidate his conquest.

He did something that Aegon failed to do with dragons, it's an amazing feats and puts him as one of the greatest Westeros military generals of all time.




Aegon Targaryen said:


> Dying at the age of 80 with your love next to you is different from being assassinated by your enemy though lol.



I don't dispute that.

Daeron died 4 years later after his conquest, not 4 hours. His feat stays with him regardless of future events.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> True, but we're not discussing morality here, are we? We're discussing if Daeron's actions helped his successors.



Okay let me be clear, someones feats whether they are impressive or unimpressive don't disappear whether they die at a later date. Of course it's an exception, if someone dies from injuries 2 hours after their fight ends thats a factor. 4 years later? that's too much of a timespan.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> But wouldn't this just mean cowing House Martell by military force is undoable and you have to seek other means (peaceful ones, as Baelor and Daeron attempted)?



But cowing House Martell by military means is possible. As I said before, the prince of dorne and 40 dornish high lords bent the knee. The reason their was a rebellion afterwards is because daeron 1 is dumb af and has no political skills at all.

For starters, he didn't marry a dornish woman. Making a dornish woman (especially from house martell) queen of the seven kingdoms would have gone a long way to pleasing dorne. He also had unmarried sisters if i recall, he messed up not offering them to some of the most powerful lords of dorne

instead of allowing house martell to rule over dorne while house martell submits to the iron throne (the way the rest of the kingdoms are aet up), daeron 1 instead had lord tyrell rule over dorne. the reach and dorne have been fighting for more than a thousand years, it should be obvious the dornish would not tolerate this

so this is what led to rebellion which in turn to daeron 1's death. so i do believe dorne can be conquered militarily. its just that the young dragon is also politically dumb like the young wolf is and decided to make the worst political decisions ever which pissed off the dornish and turned their bloodlust up to level 99. 

you will never see me ever defending daeron 1's political decisions. a genius on the battlefield, a fool in every other category.

i do beileve that daeron 1 could have held dorne if he married a dornish girl, offered his sisters for marriage, and let house martell be in charge of dorne instead of a tyrell of all fucking people lol




Aegon Targaryen said:


> In fact, one of the Martells IIRC refused to let Baelor be killed by their men while coming to/going back from Dorne because they realized doing so would piss off everyone else against them.



indeed, can't get away with killing a targaryen twice in a row. im not sure where you're going with this though?




Aegon Targaryen said:


> It's possible, I can't say for certain.
> 
> I just doubt it.
> 
> ...



well we can agree to disagree. as i said in my previous post, i dont think anyone wants to be known as the first prince of dorne who bent the knee, especially when they refused to bend after aegon attacked them for two years. so i dont think the future prince of dorne would even consider bending the knee if a previous prince of dorne didn't already open the floodgates for him

but we can agree to disagree




Aegon Targaryen said:


> Looking forward to reading it!



my biggest issue with him is he wasn't willing to fight in the blackfyre rebellion. he wants to keep his crown and let thousands die while sitting in his comfy bed? lol

jaehaerys 2 was extremely sick and was willing to fight in the war of the nine penny kings. two of daeron 2's sons were fighting in the blackfyre rebellion. even joffrey put on a suit of armor and walked to the battlements during the battle of blackwater bay before running away. daeron 2 can't even do what joffrey did? the bare minimum?

hes no king of mine

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 17, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Well I do disagree. Rob getting killed at the Red Wedding doesn't invalidate him outsmarting the shit of out Tywin and Jaime at Whispering Wood. Those two events are not connected. Neither does Daeron 1 getting killed four years later invalidate his conquest



To be fair, I don't necessarily believe Robb's errors invalidate his successes either. Just offering another perspective.

Even with all you said, I'm not convinced Daeron I's work really helped. Let's agree to disagree on this, that is reasonable.



A Optimistic said:


> He did something that Aegon failed to do with dragons, it's an amazing feats and puts him as one of the greatest Westeros military generals of all time



Don't disagree. 



A Optimistic said:


> But cowing House Martell by military means is possible



By cowing, I meant making them really fall in line...and not kill your king and continue resisting hard after the fact.



A Optimistic said:


> As I said before, the prince of dorne and 40 dornish high lords bent the knee. The reason their was a rebellion afterwards is because daeron 1 is dumb af and has no political skills at all
> 
> For starters, he didn't marry a dornish woman. Making a dornish woman (especially from house martell) queen of the seven kingdoms would have gone a long way to pleasing dorne. He also had unmarried sisters if i recall, he messed up not offering them to some of the most powerful lords of dorne
> 
> ...



Fair points. Maybe you've convinced me.



A Optimistic said:


> indeed, can't get away with killing a targaryen twice in a row. im not sure where you're going with this though?



Just saying that the Martells didn't fear any reprisal from killing Daeron I, but _did_ when it came to killing Baelor or even letting someone else do the dirty work.



A Optimistic said:


> well we can agree to disagree. as i said in my previous post, i dont think anyone wants to be known as the first prince of dorne who bent the knee, especially when they refused to bend after aegon attacked them for two years. so i dont think the future prince of dorne would even consider bending the knee if a previous prince of dorne didn't already open the floodgates for him
> 
> but we can agree to disagree



Fair. 

I do feel you made some great points in this reply, I'm rethinking it now.



A Optimistic said:


> my biggest issue with him is he wasn't willing to fight in the blackfyre rebellion. he wants to keep his crown and let thousands die while sitting in his comfy bed? loljaehaerys 2 was extremely sick and was willing to fight in the war of the nine penny kings. two of daeron 2's sons were fighting in the blackfyre rebellion. even joffrey put on a suit of armor and walked to the battlements during the battle of blackwater bay before running away. daeron 2 can't even do what joffrey did? the bare minimum?





A Optimistic said:


> hes no king of mine



A king doesn't necessarily need to fight though. They're not military figures, as per se (at least, they don't need to be by any real law or convention I know of).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 17, 2022)

Also, another question that's been bugging me for a while (among many others)...why couldn't Queen Alysanne the Good take Silverwing beyond The Wall? She apparently tried to go past it thrice, yet thrice Silverwing refused


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 18, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Also, another question that's been bugging me for a while (among many others)...why couldn't Queen Alysanne the Good take Silverwing beyond The Wall? She apparently tried to go past it thrice, yet thrice Silverwing refused


Easy

Its cold as shit beyond the wall and Silver wanted nothing to do with that shit  

I see it all the time in Canada during the winters

Tourists from like LA or some shit coming here in March thinking its gonna be like 20 degrees Celsius and instead they get hit with Literal -20 back to back days in their cute little cargo shorts  

Or they go the other way around and show up here in like July expecting it to be 30 degrees and meanwhile its like 8  

Southerners amirite?

#housestark

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Jagger (Mar 18, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> He managed to do something Aegon couldn’t with 3 dragons. It’s one of the most military impressive feats in the series.


I was being purposely inflammatory with that comment, lol. I will give longer thoughts on the subject later.


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## Jagger (Mar 18, 2022)

By the way, for anyone interested, there is a lot of material that analyses ASOIAF.


This is one of the best ASOIAF military pages out there.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Djomla (Mar 18, 2022)

It's a good read and a good watch up until season 8. I've a lot of favorite characters, Jaime, Tywin, Tyrion, Jon, Ned, Robb, Davos, Victarion, Ramsay, Stannis (books), Euron and Roose Bolton.

Favorite House: Stark, Greyjoy, Lannister.

I have mixed feelings about Aegon, Young Griff, whatever. He seems like a interesting individual, especially now that he is ready to fight with the GC at his end, but at the same time I want this to be the "fight" between Jon and Dany in the end. There were already a lot of contenders for the chair and that storyline kinda seems played out.

Others are definitely one of the most interesting parts of the story. I think what made GoT so popular and different to the Middle Earth is, how to say, this down to Earth realistic approach to the throne fight with little magic and fantasy (tv show). But since ASOIAF is definitely also a fantasy series often citied as one of the best, they also have to do the Magical aspect of the story and so far the Others are executing it nicely. Just hopping they don't get ruin like in the tv show.

Everything points to Jon being the king, but ASOIAF can always pull a fast one on us. I would love to see him on the throne. He deserves it. 

Well I think liking Ramsay is the most unpopular opinion I have on ASOIAF. He is a sick bastard, but a very entertaining villain.

And yes , I hope books to have a completely different enfimg than the tv.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 18, 2022)

Jagger said:


> By the way, for anyone interested, there is a lot of material that analyses ASOIAF.
> 
> 
> This is one of the best ASOIAF military pages out there.



Race for the Iron Throne is pretty dope too. Super analytical reviews of the story and its history, politics, and literary themes (unfortunately, chapter reviews only go up till part of ASOS).


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## Djomla (Mar 18, 2022)

Always bothered me that they cut this scene from the show. God damnit Charles stole every scene he was in.


Loved Kevan here.

Lannisters are assholes. But amazing characters.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Adamant soul (Mar 18, 2022)

It's massively overrated as both a book series and as a TV show to be honest, still good but does not live up to the hype whatsoever.

The first three books were good because, even though a lot of fucked up shit was happening, there were at least brief sparks and moments where I could actually get up and cheer. You need moments like this even in an uber bleak story, because if there's nothing but bleak then it's just going to get tiresome after a while.

Then A Feast for Crows was a slog to get through partly because Cersei was a perspective character and I'm sorry and she's a TERRIBLE villain. The dumb bitch thinks she's a lot smarter than she actually is but the only things worth reading in her chapters, was seeing all her terrible fumbles come back to bite her in the ass. Brienne and Arya had to hard carry this book.

Then A Dance with Dragons came and completely dismantled one of my favorite storylines from A Storm of Swords, one of the few moments I genuinely really enjoyed myself and got into the story. Then two books later, Martin says *fuck you, all of Dany's actions amounted to fuck all, now read about her getting played for a fool and like it because "hurr durr realism".*

Literally the exact moment I wanted to re-enact that one movie scene where the guy throws the book out the window and goes "*stupid fucking book". *I didn't but I did drop the series at that point.

Seasons 1 and 2 of the show were really good. Then season 3 came around, assassinated Brienne as a character and started to veer more and more away from the books. It was still good but by Season 4 the show was having real problems and everything after that is just straight garbage.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 18, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Easy
> 
> Its cold as shit beyond the wall and Silver wanted nothing to do with that shit
> 
> ...



Serious answers, please


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## Mider T (Mar 18, 2022)

Who is "Rob"?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 18, 2022)

Djomla said:


> Always bothered me that they cut this scene from the show. God damnit Charles stole every scene he was in.
> 
> 
> Loved Kevan here.
> ...



This scene is mad brilliant too. Loved seeing Tywin send Joffrey to bed without supper in spite of Joff being...King, and that too after Tyrion not so subtly threatened his ass. Some awesome interactions in general. Dance, Dinklage, and Gleeson all did dang good.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 18, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Serious answers, please


Who says Im joking


Mider T said:


> Who is "Rob"?


Already made this joke sweetheart 

Better luck next time

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mider T (Mar 18, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Who says Im joking
> 
> Already made this joke sweetheart
> 
> Better luck next time


Except I'm super cereal


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 18, 2022)

Adamant soul said:


> It's massively overrated as both a book series and as a TV show to be honest, still good but does not live up to the hype whatsoever.
> 
> The first three books were good because, even though a lot of fucked up shit was happening, there were at least brief sparks and moments where I could actually get up and cheer. You need moments like this even in an uber bleak story, because if there's nothing but bleak then it's just going to get tiresome after a while.
> 
> ...



Fair points. IMO the books (and show, obviously) really went off the rails. Dany's Essos plotline is kind of shitty - I don't actually mind her failing there, that can make for an interesting story if done well. That said, I am not convinced it was or will be done well...

It is also WAY TOO FAR SEPARATED from everything happening in Westeros, minus the Dornish plot (which itself kinda sucks).


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 18, 2022)

Mider T said:


> Except I'm super cereal


Youre a sad banana is what you are


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## Mider T (Mar 18, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Youre a sad banana is what you are


Whatever you say UniversesWeakest


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 18, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Youre a Hand Banana is what you are



Fixed.


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## Jagger (Mar 18, 2022)

I think a good reason on why Tywin is my fav character it's because I saw the first three seasons first and then read the books. I couldn't help but think of Charles Dance whenever Tywin apparead.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 18, 2022)

Jagger said:


> I think a good reason on why Tywin is my fav character it's because I saw the first three seasons first and then read the books. I couldn't help but think of Charles Dance whenever Tywin apparead.


He did nail the role

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 18, 2022)

IMO, Book!Tywin is a bit rougher around the edges than the polished and elegant Charles Dance (illustrations of Book!Tywin with his mutton chops and constant grimace make him look more like Dominic Purcell), but Dance did so well, he redefined the character in my eyes.


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 18, 2022)

Tywin just seems like he’s surrounded by idiots and is like 4th wall tier aware of it at times  

He’s probably not meant to offer any comic relief but his pure “done with this shit” savagery being practically his default emotion really does make me giggle

Poor Tywin just wants his kids to be worth a damn and wants someone with half a damn brain on the throne really

If said ruler was married to a Lannister or something all the better, but I really feel like what Tywin really wants is just some fucking competency sometimes

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 18, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Tywin just seems like he’s surrounded by idiots and is like 4th wall tier aware of it at times
> 
> He’s probably not meant to offer any comic relief but his pure “done with this shit” savagery being practically his default emotion really does make me giggle
> 
> ...



To be fair, a lot of this is Tywin's own fault lol. Dude didn't really inspire or train his kids to be competent, and the one kid who was closest to him in political savvy (Tyrion), he abused in nearly every way.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jagger (Mar 19, 2022)

Now, seriously speaking, Dareon I's conquest of Dorne was significant. It represented yet another bloody chapter in the feud between the Westerosi Kingdom and the Kingdom of Dorne. @A Optimistic is right that Daeron provided a precedent that Dorne isn't unbeatable, but yet it proved it cannot be held for too long and that Dornish people will use absolutely EVERYTHING in their power to regain their freedom, even if it means breaking the custom laws of hospitality and neutrality.

It made the Crown realize that military power alone isn't enough to bring them to the fold and diplomatic routes should be utilized. Not just that, but House Martell became more receptive to becoming part of the Targaryen realm.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Jagger (Mar 19, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> To be fair, a lot of this is Tywin's own fault lol. Dude didn't really inspire or train his kids to be competent, and the one kid who was closest to him in political savvy (Tyrion), he abused in nearly every way.


This is one of the reasons, a deeper one actually, on why I love Tywin as a character.

He is the very personification of hypocresy and contradiction. He spent years, DECADES, building an imagine of himself that everyone else bought, the idea he's this unstoppable force of Nature that gets his way every single time. But the reality is that he's just a man, a man sometimes ruled by his emotions and whims like everyone else. 

He is partly the reason on why Cersei is so politically inefficient. He doesn't help whatsoever with Jaime and only traumatized for life his only viable succesor. He alienated Hourse Martell and made the entirety of Dorne the Lannisters' mortal enemies because I am CONVINCED he deliberately didn't tell The Mountain about Princess Elia so she'd get murdered, just to spite her and her family for robbing him of what should have been his in the first place (his daughter being the Queen of Westeros).

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 19, 2022)

Jagger said:


> This is one of the reasons, a deeper one actually, on why I love Tywin as a character.
> 
> He is the very personification of hypocresy and contradiction. He spent years, DECADES, building an imagine of himself that everyone else bought, the idea he's this unstoppable force of Nature that gets his way every single time. But the reality is that he's just a man, a man sometimes ruled by his emotions and whims like everyone else.
> 
> He is partly the reason on why Cersei is so politically inefficient. He doesn't help whatsoever with Jaime and only traumatized for life his only viable succesor. He alienated Hourse Martell and made the entirety of Dorne the Lannisters' mortal enemies because I am CONVINCED he deliberately didn't tell The Mountain about Princess Elia so she'd get murdered, just to spite her and her family for robbing him of what should have been his in the first place (his daughter being the Queen of Westeros).



Great points. Tywin likes pretending he's above all that petty nonsense and only about the family, but it's clear he's a massive hypocrite who neither cares for his actual family nor practices what he (seemingly) preaches.

His dallying with whores is probably the ultimate example, his refusal to marry anyone else after Joanna another. One could argue he's only mad at Tyrion for doing the same thing openly and not discreetly, but he doesn't exactly go out of his way to clarify that either.


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## Jagger (Mar 20, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Great points. Tywin likes pretending he's above all that petty nonsense and only about the family, but it's clear he's a massive hypocrite who neither cares for his actual family nor practices what he (seemingly) preaches.
> 
> His dallying with whores is probably the ultimate example, his refusal to marry anyone else after Joanna another. One could argue he's only mad at Tyrion for doing the same thing openly and not discreetly, but he doesn't exactly go out of his way to clarify that either.


Bruh, Book!Tywin is such an irredemeable piece of shit. What he did to Tysha and Tyrion is unforgivable. He deserved his ending and more, tbh.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 20, 2022)

Jagger said:


> Bruh, Book!Tywin is such an irredemeable piece of shit. What he did to Tysha and Tyrion is unforgivable. He deserved his ending and more, tbh.



Show!Tywin isn't much better, but at least he...didn't have Tyrion participate in raping Tysha? And showed a _little_ more warmth to his kids, Tyrion included? Agree Book!Tywin deserved all he got.


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## Mider T (Mar 20, 2022)

Jagger said:


> hypocresy


Hypocrisy*


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## Jagger (Mar 20, 2022)

Mider T said:


> Hypocrisy*


The sheer fucking audacity of a walking potassium provider to gramatically correct me. Holy fuck. 

Btw, you quoted me on the wrong thread, lmao.


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## Mider T (Mar 20, 2022)

Jagger said:


> The sheer fucking audacity of a walking potassium provider to gramatically correct me. Holy fuck.
> 
> Btw, you quoted me on the wrong thread, lmao.


No I didn't


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## Mider T (Mar 21, 2022)

Not opposed to this.  I liked Fire & Blood

Also @Island merge the threads.


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## Jagger (Mar 21, 2022)

DON'T DO IT, @Island. REFUSE THIS TYRANT'S REQUEST.


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## Island (Mar 22, 2022)

Mider T said:


> Not opposed to this.  I liked Fire & Blood
> 
> Also @Island merge the threads.


Done.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mider T (Mar 22, 2022)

Jagger said:


> DON'T DO IT, @Island. REFUSE THIS TYRANT'S REQUEST.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 23, 2022)

@Island Why though? This was a very old thread, mine was super new.

Anyway, this is what got me into the series (yes, show first for me):


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 7, 2022)

Does anyone know if this article is correct?


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## FitzChivalry (Apr 8, 2022)

What's it been, nine years? I'm not holding my breath. I won't believe anything until that damn thing is in my hands.


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## Mider T (Apr 8, 2022)

I'll believe it when I see the book on the shelf.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 9, 2022)

FitzChivalry said:


> What's it been, nine years?



Isn't that what Robert said to Ned when they met again in the first episode?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Garcher (Apr 9, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Does anyone know if this article is correct?


Are you new to this "waiting for Winds of Winter" thing?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 9, 2022)

Garcher said:


> Are you new to this "waiting for Winds of Winter" thing?



No

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mickey Mouse (Apr 9, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> No

Reactions: Funny 1


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## DemonDragonJ (Apr 11, 2022)

Why and how is this series so popular, anyway? I have read every book, and I enjoyed it, but I would not call it "the next _LotR;"_ yes, I understand that it subverts many popular tropes and traditions in fantasy, but I feel that George R.R. Martin is hiding behind the guise of "historical accuracy" and "realism" to justify blatant sexism and other forms of discrimination (such as a dislike of short people or children born out of wedlock), which are elements that I severely dislike.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 11, 2022)

Are the White Walkers evil in the books? @FitzChivalry @Island @Garcher @Mider T


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## Mider T (Apr 11, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Are the White Walkers evil in the books? @FitzChivalry @Island @Garcher @Mider T


You mean the Others?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 11, 2022)

Mider T said:


> You mean the Others?



No, I meant the Dothraki.


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## dr_shadow (Apr 17, 2022)

Just finished the first book! 

It was good! But... not very surprising, given how Season 1 of the TV show is essentially a page-for-page adaptation. The only major change I noticed was that in the book the first coupling of Dany and Drogo is consensual, whereas in the show they (for some reason??) made it a rape. Everything else seemed to be identical.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Mider T (Jun 2, 2022)



Reactions: Informative 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 2, 2022)

I unironically preferred S1 to Book 1. S1 IMO builds out the human aspects of the characters more and makes everyone largely more likable and sympathetic (except Joffrey who's even more of a brat, but he's Joffrey so I can live with it). Some of the dream and supernatural sequences are unfortunately missing, which isn't great, but the fight scenes and new talks/speeches are welcome. Loved Robert's "five-or-one" discussion with Cersei and then their talk about their failed marriage.



dr_shadow said:


> Just finished the first book!
> 
> It was good! But... not very surprising, given how Season 1 of the TV show is essentially a page-for-page adaptation. The only major change I noticed was that in the book the first coupling of Dany and Drogo is consensual, whereas in the show they (for some reason??) made it a rape. Everything else seemed to be identical.


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## Mickey Mouse (Jun 2, 2022)

This shit is not encouraging.......2025 instead of 2023......if even that.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 2, 2022)

But seriously, why is it taking him so long? Like, the story's not _that_ complicated, and even if he lost interest, he could've published TWOW (forget ADOS) far sooner - 4 years seems plenty enough, IMO. 

Thoughts?


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## Mider T (Jun 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> But seriously, why is it taking him so long? Like, the story's not _that_ complicated, and even if he lost interest, he could've published TWOW (forget ADOS) far sooner - 4 years seems plenty enough, IMO.
> 
> Thoughts?


Because he's lazy.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 2, 2022)

Mider T said:


> Because he's lazy.



How can anyone be that lazy?


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## Mickey Mouse (Jun 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> How can anyone be that lazy?


The success of the show.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 2, 2022)

Mickey Mouse said:


> The success of the show.



Not so successful anymore  

People ROUNDLY went after S8.


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## Mickey Mouse (Jun 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Not so successful anymore
> 
> People ROUNDLY went after S8.


Yeah, but before that he was riding high with like seasons 1-5 or 6.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 2, 2022)

Mickey Mouse said:


> Yeah, but before that he was riding high with like seasons 1-5 or 6.



I see your point. But S8 ended in 2019 and it has been like 3 years since (and it is fair to argue GRRM already had work done on TWOW before 2019). And even with all that, he takes ages to write it? Gimme a break, lol.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mickey Mouse (Jun 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I see your point. But S8 ended in 2019 and it has been like 3 years since (and it is fair to argue GRRM already had work done on TWOW before 2019). And even with all that, he takes ages to write it? Gimme a break, lol.


You are not wrong. He should have been way further. But he seems to have gotten side track with not only other media projects, but side stories as well.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 2, 2022)

Mickey Mouse said:


> You are not wrong. He should have been way further. But he seems to have gotten side track with not only other media projects, but side stories as well.



Good point. Elden Ring and Fire & Blood and all that.

That gardener mindset of his...very interesting world, but notoriously slow writing.

Dude should have completed ASOIAF before working on any prequels.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aduro (Jun 2, 2022)

Dude just said he got past a 'clutch' of difficult chapters. He's probably gotten past one of hte parts that was slowing him down. I know its been a frustratingly long gap, (even though most of us including me didn't start reading until long after Dance 2 came out) but this is sorta good news.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 2, 2022)

Aduro said:


> Dude just said he got past a 'clutch' of difficult chapters. He's probably gotten past one of hte parts that was slowing him down. I know its been a frustratingly long gap, (even though most of us including me didn't start reading until long after Dance 2 came out) but this is sorta good news.



It's not good news until the book comes out

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 2, 2022)

I can all but guarantee most fans will forgive GRRM for not writing the next Fire & Blood or Dunk & Egg or what have you...

...Provided he gives us TWOW and soon. In fact, I and many others would be PERFECTLY fine with TWOW and ADOS and no new ASOIAF-related works or prequels EVER, whatsoever. One can let history remain mysterious, no need to do a Rowling.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mider T (Jun 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> How can anyone be that lazy?


You see how fat he is?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 2, 2022)

Mider T said:


> You see how fat he is?



I mean, he wrote the first 4 books reasonably quickly...was pretty fat then


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## Mider T (Jun 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I mean, he wrote the first 4 books reasonably quickly...was pretty fat then


Just because they didn't take 11 years doesn't mean 4-6 years is quick for writing.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 2, 2022)

Mider T said:


> Just because they didn't take 11 years doesn't mean 4-6 years is quick for writing.



I mean, it is far quicker, so clearly being fat is not the issue at hand.


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## Arles Celes (Jun 4, 2022)

The last book will take the longest. More than this one.

After all to make an epic ending that concludes all introduced plots in a satisfying way will be the ultimate challenge.

Never mind that age will slow the guy more and more.

I see last book taking 15+ years to finish. Meaning GRRM likely won't be able to finish it. The current one likely will take 1-2 years more anyway...assuming there are no biggers burnouts/writer blocks/health problems.


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## Mickey Mouse (Jun 4, 2022)

Arles Celes said:


> The last book will take the longest. More than this one.
> 
> After all to make an epic ending that concludes all introduced plots in a satisfying way will be the ultimate challenge.
> 
> ...


I thought he was practically working on both right now. Like finishing this one and laying out a outline for the other.


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## Mider T (Jun 4, 2022)

The only outline he's laying RIGHT NOW is his ass checks on a toilet seat

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Cichy (Aug 26, 2022)

It took me a while to realize that the entire Bran plotline is basically a love letter to Dune. If I recall Martin even said at one point that he's a huge Dune fan.

Dune saga spoilers

*Spoiler*: __ 





Both Bran and Paul Atreides are noble born boys that awaken the power to see past and future as well as some ability to control others (the voice in Dune and warging in SoiaF) due to them possessing special genetics. And they both are in some way connected to some ancient religion. They even both are criple in some way (Bran not being able to walk and Paul becoming blind late in life).

In Dune Paul takes over the throne and becomes a tyrant. I've red a theory that Bran might become immortal by fusing himself with a weirwood three (like One-eyed Crow) and basically becoming kinda like God-emperor Letho in Dune. So the book series ending with Bran as the king might not be impossible. It's just that this will not be a good thing in the end. Bran breaks the wheel by becoming an all powerful tyrant that can see the future and rule for centuries with an iron fist. Stoping all the infighting between the houses for good.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 26, 2022)

Cichy said:


> So the book series ending with Bran as the king might not be impossible. It's just that this will not be a good thing in the end. Bran breaks the wheel by becoming an all powerful tyrant that can see the future and rule for centuries with an iron fist. Stoping all the infighting between the houses for good.
> [/spoiler]



Idk, man. That ending seems a little too dark, even for ASOIAF. The show at least indicated Bran would have no more children, implying he would eventually die and someone else could replace him down the line - someone voted in by the houses.

I actually hope Bran never becomes King and instead just becomes some mysterious protector or even a wise and benevolent councilor to the actual semi-democratically elected monarch (preferably the child of Jon and Dany or someone like that), kinda like the Merlin to King Arthur.


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## Cichy (Aug 27, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Idk, man. That ending seems a little too dark, even for ASOIAF. The show at least indicated Bran would have no more children, implying he would eventually die and someone else could replace him down the line - someone voted in by the houses.
> 
> I actually hope Bran never becomes King and instead just becomes some mysterious protector or even a wise and benevolent councilor to the actual semi-democratically elected monarch (preferably the child of Jon and Dany or someone like that), kinda like the Merlin to King Arthur.


There are already some strong hints suggesting Bran's character will go in a dark direction.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 27, 2022)

Cichy said:


> There are already some strong hints suggesting Bran's character will go in a dark direction.



I agree it will go in a dark direction, I just doubt it will stay somewhere dark.


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## Garcher (Aug 28, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I actually hope Bran never becomes King and instead just becomes some mysterious protector or even a wise and benevolent councilor to the actual semi-democratically elected monarch (preferably the child of Jon and Dany or someone like that), kinda like the Merlin to King Arthur.


Bran will never become king because Martin will never finish the books, don't worry.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 1


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## Cichy (Aug 28, 2022)

I mean...

*Spoiler*: __ 




The actor who plays Bran claimed that Bran becoming the king is something that came from Martin. And D&D both learned the ending to the books from Martin years before ending of the show. So unless GRRM is a massive troll, making Bran the king was his intention. It's still possible he may change this after the backlash of show's ending, but I strongly believe that is his idea.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Mider T (Aug 28, 2022)

Cichy said:


> I mean...
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Yes that was the plan.  Just the way that it happens is apparently different.


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## Capa13 (Nov 11, 2022)

Mider T said:


> Yes that was the plan.  Just the way that it happens is apparently different.


I will never understand this. It Bran as the King is still the plan GRRM has to be autistic.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 4, 2022)

Why does Martin not hire a co-author or assistant? His current method of writing is not working, so something needs to be done, if he wishes to finish the series.


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## Cichy (Dec 4, 2022)

Martin did work with co-writers on other projects, but he wants the main saga to be his work and his legacy.

Judging by his comments he's around 3/4 done with WoW so the book coming out in next 2-3 years is possible.

Reactions: Old 1


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## SSMG (Dec 4, 2022)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Why does Martin not hire a co-author or assistant? His current method of writing is not working, so something needs to be done, if he wishes to finish the series.


He has an assistant writing team. He brought in the owners of the wiki of ice and fire as his offical assistants. 
They were brought in place incase the worst case scenario happens and George passes before he finished the books. 

They know his plans and he whe wants it to end. They are ready to pick up the pen if George's pen gets dropped. 

But also George has said in the summer that he thinks the next book will be ready for release by next fall, November 2023.  And he was writing noth books together, so the final book should follow fairly shortly after.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 4, 2022)

SSMG said:


> He has an assistant writing team. He brought in the owners of the wiki of ice and fire as his offical assistants.
> They were brought in place incase the worst case scenario happens and George passes before he finished the books.
> 
> They know his plans and he whe wants it to end. They are ready to pick up the pen if George's pen gets dropped.
> ...



I never saw the television series, but I hope that the finale of the series is not how Martin plans to end the books, since I have heard most people say that the end was entirely unsatisfactory, and it also would be very poor writing to allow the television series to spoil the ending of the books.


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## SSMG (Dec 4, 2022)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I never saw the television series, but I hope that the finale of the series is not how Martin plans to end the books, since I have heard most people say that the end was entirely unsatisfactory, and it also would be very poor writing to allow the television series to spoil the ending of the books.


From what I've heard through he rumor mill... 

George plans for a few main things happening in his books, but they're going to take a much much different route to get there. 

Which should be fine. 

I know my grief with the shows finale wasn't so much the final events that occurred.. But the conclusion and the events that lead them to make such a choice in the show.. 

So if things are done differently, it could be good, heck could be a great ending even.. 

Time will tell.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Cichy (Dec 5, 2022)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I never saw the television series, but I hope that the finale of the series is not how Martin plans to end the books, since I have heard most people say that the end was entirely unsatisfactory, and it also would be very poor writing to allow the television series to spoil the ending of the books.


The ending will have some mutual points, but there should be more differences in general.

There is a common misunderstanding that D&D went in their own direction with the show, because they "run out of source material", but that is not true. The only books that were adopted closely were books 1-3. The next two books were only partially adopted and there are several plotlines that either never made it to the screen or were drastically changed (Dornish plot, Oldtown plot, Lady Stoneheart, Young Griff, northern conspiracy against Boltons, Euron wanting to become god, Victarion Greyjoy etc). If they actually tried to adopt it then not only there would be few more seasons, but also the ending would have to be different with more characters being involved.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 6, 2022)

Cichy said:


> The ending will have some mutual points, but there should be more differences in general.
> 
> There is a common misunderstanding that D&D went in their own direction with the show, because they "run out of source material", but that is not true. The only books that were adopted closely were books 1-3. The next two books were only partially adopted and there are several plotlines that either never made it to the screen or were drastically changed (Dornish plot, Oldtown plot, Lady Stoneheart, Young Griff, northern conspiracy against Boltons, Euron wanting to become god, Victarion Greyjoy etc). If they actually tried to adopt it then not only there would be few more seasons, but also the ending would have to be different with more characters being involved.



Who are D&D, and what makes them so special that Martin would reveal details of the final two books to them, when he cannot finished those books, himself? Why should the television series be given higher priority than are the original books?


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## Cichy (Dec 7, 2022)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Who are D&D, and what makes them so special that Martin would reveal details of the final two books to them, when he cannot finished those books, himself? Why should the television series be given higher priority than are the original books?


D&D were the showrunners of Game of Thrones. Martin revealed to them some of his plans regarding the ending so they can properly set up the plot of the series and make it work on the screen (even tho they didn't). 

The television show was produced by a big entertainment conglomerate and had several investors wanting it to succeed for them to get a revenue so it's obvious it takes priority over a nerdy fantasy series in an era when not many people read books.


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## Arles Celes (Dec 7, 2022)

Cichy said:


> Martin did work with co-writers on other projects, but he wants the main saga to be his work and his legacy.
> 
> Judging by his comments he's around 3/4 done with WoW *so the book coming out in next 2-3 years is possible.*


Pretty much.

Then the next and final one in 15-20 years. Unless he decides to write TWO more books which would be another 15-20 years.


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## Mider T (Dec 7, 2022)




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## Cichy (Dec 8, 2022)

Thats in line with his other statement from few months back that he's around 75% done.


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## DemonDragonJ (Dec 8, 2022)

Cichy said:


> The television show was produced by a big entertainment conglomerate and had several investors wanting it to succeed for them to get a revenue so it's obvious it takes priority over a nerdy fantasy series in an era when not many people read books.



Again, people give profit a higher priority than artistic integrity or telling a good story! Why is the desire for profit such an all-consuming thing, and when will people stop pursuing profits?

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Mider T (Dec 8, 2022)

Workers of the Cinematic Industry, Unite!


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## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 15, 2022)

Mider T said:


> Workers of the Cinematic Industry, Unite!



Avengers, Assemble!


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## Mickey Mouse (Dec 15, 2022)

Cichy said:


> Thats in line with his other statement from few months back that he's around 75% done.


500 sounds like alot.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Garcher (Dec 18, 2022)

Currently rereading AFFC. It's been like 10 years since I read the book and I didn't remember the Cersei chapters being so hilarious

It's legit comedy to watch her being such a conceited, paranoid and incompetent lunatic. Like she gives herself a pat on the back for changing the titles of the Council members because she feels like "Master" sounds too important compared to her own rank 

How the hell did she end up as a rather competent villain in the series?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Informative 1


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## Mickey Mouse (Dec 18, 2022)

Garcher said:


> Currently rereading AFFC. It's been like 10 years since I read the book and I didn't remember the Cersei chapters being so hilarious
> 
> It's legit comedy to watch her being such a conceited, paranoid and incompetent lunatic. Like she gives herself a pat on the back for changing titles of the Council members because she feels like "Master" sounds too important compared to her own rank
> 
> How the hell did she end up as a rather competent villain in the series?


Ned being too noble
Tyrion and Tywin being around


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## Garcher (Dec 19, 2022)

Mickey Mouse said:


> Ned being too noble
> Tyrion and Tywin being around


?
I mean in the later seasons of the TV series when she has free rein. She manages to establish herself as ruler of Westeros, easily deals with the Tyrells and the Dornish etc.

In the first book it would have been already game over for her if her ridiculous scheme to kill Robert hadn't worked by chance


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## Jagger (Dec 20, 2022)

The TV Series never understood Cersei was never the "evil, sociopathic competent ruler", but instead the "evil, chaotic, mentally unstable ruler whose reign is falling apart".

There is a reason why Varys killed Kevan. He was the last competent Lannister around. Without him, Cersei has no breaks left. Pure madness. I can't wait to see it.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Mider T (Dec 20, 2022)

Cersei in the books is not only incompetent, but she's starting to lose it mentally and blames Tyrion for everything bad happening to her.  The dichotomy of Jaime become better and her getting worse is interesting.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Arles Celes (Dec 21, 2022)

Mickey Mouse said:


> 500 sounds like alot.


The book will be likely around 1500 pages so its like 1/3 left.

It took him almost 12 years to write those 1000 pages so...6 years more?  

Assuming health issues or writer block won't slow him down further.

I expect the next last book taking at least 20 years. Unless said book is divided into 2 books which would take even more time.

So around 26+ years to see the story finished.


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## SSMG (Dec 22, 2022)

Garcher said:


> How the hell did she end up as a rather competent villain in the series?


Because the show ruined the actual competent villains... Like Euron.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Dec 22, 2022)

SSMG said:


> Because the show ruined the actual competent villains... Like Euron.


Yeah Euron in the novel is one depraved Badass.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## SSMG (Dec 22, 2022)

Tsukuyomi said:


> Yeah Euron in the novel is one depraved Badass.


The kingsmoot is one of my favourite scenes in any of the books.. The dude blowing the dragon horn for Eurons entrance and him dropping dead was icing on the cake Imo. Made his entrance to the series so memorable and intimidating. 

And the dynamic between him and his brother  Victiorian is one of the best written relationships in the books. And they just cut that out completely.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Tsukuyomi (Dec 22, 2022)

SSMG said:


> The kingsmoot is one of my favourite scenes in any of the books.. The dude blowing the dragon horn for Eurons entrance and him dropping dead was icing on the cake Imo. Made his entrance to the series so memorable and intimidating.
> 
> And the dynamic between him and his brother  Victiorian is one of the best written relationships in the books. And they just cut that out completely.


But I don't like what he did to his younger brothers tho

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SSMG (Dec 22, 2022)

Tsukuyomi said:


> But I don't like what he did to his younger brothers tho


No he's absolutely  horrible as a person and as a brother espeically, but still the way George wrote their dynamic, was still really well written.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Dec 22, 2022)

SSMG said:


> No he's absolutely  horrible as a person and as a brother espeically, but still the way George wrote their dynamic, was still really well written.


He is the second most evil character in GOT.
Only surpassed by Craster imo.
Only rivalled by Rorge and Biter.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SSMG (Dec 22, 2022)

I'd throw patch face on that list. That guy is evil to the core I know it aha. 

 But I agree with your list.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Dec 22, 2022)

SSMG said:


> I'd throw patch face on that list. That guy is evil to the core I know it aha.
> 
> But I agree with your list.


Ramsay Is better than Euron imo.
He didn't enjoy killing his family.
He even looked away when he killed his dad.


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## SSMG (Dec 22, 2022)

Ahh I didn't mean Ramsay. He's bad but not as bad as these guys.

No I  meant the court jester for Stannis. His name is Patch face.

When Melisandre viewed him in her fires* that gives her visions... She only saw death.


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## SSMG (Dec 22, 2022)

This is her inner thoughts of him. 


_Melisandre on Patchface: "That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes

there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood."_

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Yonatan (Jan 4, 2023)

> _I did take a few days off for the holidays, I confess.   Shame on me, I guess.   But now I am back in the salt mine, working… working on so many bloody things, my head may soon explode.   Yes, WINDS OF WINTER, yes, yes. .....  Oh, and did I forget WINDS OF WINTER?  No, of course I didn’t.   But if I ever did, I know you folks will remind me....... well, this past week the G-Men lost a heartbreaker to the Vikings, and the Jets failed to turn up for their game against the Jags.  (Please, Mike White, get well soon).   Life is meaningless and full of pain.   Clearly, the Football Gods hate me.   Maybe they are pissed off about WINDS being so late too…...... WHITE LOTUS 2 on HBO made me want to go visit Sicily… but I won’t, not until WINDS is done and delivered, I promised......_


I can't help but notice that he sounds bitter regarding the book. As if it's someone else's fault that he still has 500 pages to go while it took him 10 years to write ~1,000. I guess at this rate the book _might_ be done in 5 years.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 4, 2023)

Yonatan said:


> I can't help but notice that he sounds bitter regarding the book. As if it's someone else's fault that he still has 500 pages to go while it took him 10 years to write ~1,000. I guess at this rate the book _might_ be done in 5 years.



He does sound salty.


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## Mider T (Jan 4, 2023)

He needs to get over it, just be happy the Giants made the playoffs.


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