# Minato vs. Tsunade



## trance (Jan 29, 2015)

Location: Sannin Battleground

Intel: Full

Mindset: Bloodlusted

Distance: 100m

Rules: No Katsuyu. Minato is restricted to base form.


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## Bonly (Jan 29, 2015)

Tsunade can't really do much here. She will be tagged at some point in time and when she is, it's gonna be a GG folks.


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## KeithBarry (Jan 29, 2015)

Honestly, this doesn't even seem remotely difficult for Minato. 

Yes, I know Tsunade can regenerate, and that she has superhuman strength. 

Both of these characters are very straight forward in how they fight, so there's not a huge amount of tactical variations that you could speculate. 

*Minato wins it via slitting Tsunade's throat....*


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## Veracity (Jan 29, 2015)

Why even makes this thread it's already one sided without Katsuyy being restricted. What's next? Sandaime Raikage vs Shikamaru?


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## Mercurial (Jan 29, 2015)

Minato blitzes and hits her with a Rasengan in the face, marking her at the same time. Then he blitzes with Hiraishin cutting her head off with a kunai. Having Katsuyu wouldn't change anything, Minato would still kill her in seconds, taking away the summoning with the summoner's death. Or he could seal Katsuyu too.


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## LostSelf (Jan 29, 2015)

Even with Katsuyu, Tsunade loses. Minato's base speed is faster than Ei's V2 Shunshin .


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## StarWanderer (Jan 29, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Even with Katsuyu, Tsunade loses. Minato's base speed is faster than Ei's V2 Shunshin .



No its not. Young Ei <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< prime V2 Ei in speed. But Minato wins this anyway.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 29, 2015)

Tagging Tsunade achieves practically nothing, because he still cannot kill her.

Minato ties it with Shiki Fūjin.


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## DavyChan (Jan 29, 2015)

Minato is going to win.

However You guys are so caught up in hyping Minato that ur making it sound like he literally blitzes her (meaning he stomps). No He is not winning at any difficulty lower than Mid diff. I'd say he wins high diff. tsunade can tank some of his moves and i think she could land a few too.


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## SonicShane97 (Jan 29, 2015)

I'd go for Minato in this one. In my opinion, Tsunade is the weakest hokage. If you think about it though, the hokages are all overpowered when compared with other kages anyway, so no personal offence to Tsunade.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jan 29, 2015)

Even with Katsuyu, Tsunade loses. Minato's base speed is faster than Ei's V2 Shunshin .


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## FlamingRain (Jan 29, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Even with Katsuyu, Tsunade loses. Minato's base speed is faster than Ei's V2 Shunshin .





RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Even with Katsuyu, Tsunade loses. Minato's base speed is faster than Ei's V2 Shunshin .



Did I miss something?


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## LostSelf (Jan 29, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Did I miss something?




Yes .

But this has been coming from a long time, lots of threads.


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## tupadre97 (Jan 29, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Tagging Tsunade achieves practically nothing, because he still cannot kill her.
> 
> Minato ties it with Shiki Fūjin.



Lol why not? She can't survive decapitation.


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## Empathy (Jan 29, 2015)

By Minato being restricted to base form, do you mean no _Hirashin_? Barring _Sennin Modo_ (which he doesn't use), Minato doesn't have any ascension forms. If it's no _Hirashin_ and Minato has to fight her directly, then I don't think Minato could win, although I'm probably in the minority. Minato's used to ending all his fights up close with one strike via kunai slash or _Rasengan_ using his speed with _Hirashin_ or _Shunshin_ to end it in an instant. I don't think he'd win in an extended taijutsu exchange with Tsunade (her forte), and there would be a strong emphasis on extended; he really isn't well equipped to put her down in quick succession like he's accustomed to. Minato's much faster than her even without _Hirashin_ and his reflexes are well above her, so he'll avoid getting hit by Tsunade for a long time by fighting safely. However, he isn't a top tier speedster without _Hirashin_ and he is not touchable without it.

He also doesn't have precognitive abilities to glance into the future to supplement his reflexes like the sharingan or _Sennin Modo_ (he's restricted to base here), so there isn't a convincing argument that he'd be able to avoid getting hit until the end of time. Couple that with the fact that due to her regeneration and healing capability, Minato can't inflict debilitating or fatal injuries, then it only becomes a matter of time. Tsunade only needs to lay a hand on him once to end it, and with the area-of-effect a miss from her will affect the landscape (Minato's footing), it's more likely to happen before she exhausts herself unless Minato runs away and literally only throws an occasional pot shot the entire time. Minato could aid in damaging her by summoning Gamabunta, but that's more likely to get Gamabunta hurt than Tsunade. It probably ends in a draw with _Shiki Fujin_ or Tsunade connects a hit sooner or later, unless Minato can somehow end it with any of his other fuinjutsu.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 29, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Yes .



What happened?



tupadre97 said:


> She can't survive decapitation.



Why not?


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## Thunder (Jan 29, 2015)

The OP states Minato is restricted to base form. Hiraishin isn't a form so I'm going to assume Kurama Chakra Mode and Sage Mode are what's restricted here. 

It's not like Minato needs either of those transformations anyway. That would be overkill. Hiraishin is more than enough. With full knowledge Minato won't let up the pressure until Tsunade is dead or sealed away.


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## Mercurial (Jan 29, 2015)

Empathy said:


> By Minato being restricted to base form, do you mean no _Hirashin_? Barring _Sennin Modo_ (which he doesn't use), Minato doesn't have any ascension forms. If it's no _Hirashin_ and Minato has to fight her directly, then I don't think Minato could win, although I'm probably in the minority. Minato's used to ending all his fights up close with one strike via kunai slash or _Rasengan_ using his speed with _Hirashin_ or _Shunshin_ to end it in an instant. I don't think he'd win in an extended taijutsu exchange with Tsunade (her forte), and there would be a strong emphasis on extended; he really isn't well equipped to put her down in quick succession like he's accustomed to. Minato's much faster than her even without _Hirashin_ and his reflexes are well above her, so he'll avoid getting hit by Tsunade for a long time by fighting safely. However, he isn't a top tier speedster without _Hirashin_ and he is not touchable without it.
> 
> He also doesn't have precognitive abilities to glance into the future to supplement his reflexes like the sharingan or _Sennin Modo_ (he's restricted to base here), so there isn't a convincing argument that he'd be able to avoid getting hit until the end of time. Couple that with the fact that due to her regeneration and healing capability, Minato can't inflict debilitating or fatal injuries, then it only becomes a matter of time. Tsunade only needs to lay a hand on him once to end it, and with the area-of-effect a miss from her will affect the landscape (Minato's footing), it's more likely to happen before she exhausts herself unless Minato runs away and literally only throws an occasional pot shot the entire time. Minato could aid in damaging her by summoning Gamabunta, but that's more likely to get Gamabunta hurt than Tsunade. It probably ends in a draw with _Shiki Fujin_ or Tsunade connects a hit sooner or later, unless Minato can somehow end it with any of his other fuinjutsu.



If punching around and destroy the ground and smash the landscape didn't help her hitting armless Orochimaru and part 1 Kabuto, do you really think it will trouble Minato?


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## FlamingRain (Jan 29, 2015)

Empathy isn't talking about decades out-of-practice and out-of-shape Tsunade, nor is he talking about Minato fleeing without trying to fight back.


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## Sword of the Morning (Jan 29, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Empathy isn't talking about decades out-of-practice and out-of-shape Tsunade, nor is he talking about Minato fleeing without trying to fight back.



Tsunade was never out of practice and shape for decades. Where did you get that from?


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## RedChidori (Jan 29, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Tsunade can't really do much here. She will be tagged at some point in time and when she is, it's gonna be a GG folks.



Bonly sums the shit up  .


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## FlamingRain (Jan 29, 2015)

Sword of the Morning said:


> Tsunade was never out of practice and shape for decades. Where did you get that from?



Tsunade retired after the Second Great Ninja War, the same war during which Nagato was still just a kid apparently not even in his teens.

Nagato is in his mid-*thirties* in Part 2, despite there only being three years between his introduction and the end of Part 1 when Tsunade came out of retirement.

She also apparently remembered Shikaku as a little kid going by her comments at their reunion in Part 1, despite him being 38 at the time.

So yeah...decades.


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 30, 2015)

Tsunade dies terribly the only Gokage that can give Minato a good fight are Gaara and Ay.


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## Rocky (Feb 1, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Minato ties it with Shiki Fūjin.



He doesn't necessarily have to do that. He can wear her down.

Tsunade may have greater stamina showings, but Minato isn't the one who must keep a restoration jutsu active constantly just to stay alive. Minato only needs to use Hiraishin reactively, and he doesn't need to jump through space & time to avoid everything Tsunade wants to do. She isn't some offensive juggernaut. 

Minato may be able to win this fight by just playing defense and keeping himself out of vulnerable positions. Tsunade isn't going to be touching him if A couldn't. She could opt to stop chasing him, but deactivating Creation Rebirth opens her up to eating a Rasengan in the mouth, which is something she probably isn't going to tank.

Alternatively, he can warp her to the middle of the ocean.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 1, 2015)

^ Well, that was a Young Ei, but I agree, Minato may be able to outlast Tsunade, but Tsunade will certainly not be brought down by a Rasengan or any stab unless he manages to behead Tsunade.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He doesn't necessarily have to do that.



I'd say there's a good chance he does, though.



> Tsunade may have greater stamina showings, but Minato isn't the one who must keep a restoration jutsu active constantly just to stay alive.



Sōzō Saisei/Byakugō no Jutsu only use up as much Chakra as is needed to restore whatever injuries Tsunade sustains, and only in response to her actually sustaining those injuries (you can't fix something if it isn't broken). If the Chakra is being expended constantly it will be only because Tsunade is being attacked constantly, and attacking requires energy even without Hiraishin.



> Alternatively, he can warp her to the middle of the ocean.



Seems like an indirect admission that he can't beat her straight up, because it's not like Kamui where if he gets her there she's going to be stuck- she can just go home, meaning this amounts to little more than Minato trying to distance himself from his opponent.


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## Rocky (Feb 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ Well, that was a Young Ei...



There is no evidence anywhere in the manga that A was slower during the flashback than he was during the War Arc. The context of the scene actually implies the opposite.

Don't give me the common sense/natural development argument either. If anything, Flashback A would have been _faster_ than his 47 year-old self due to the scene taking place during A's prime years.



> Tsunade will certainly not be brought down by a Rasengan or any stab unless he manages to behead Tsunade.



I'm not sure if I buy Tsunade maintaining consciousness after swallowing a Rasengan to the head area without any form of regeneration active.


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## Veracity (Feb 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> There is no evidence anywhere in the manga that A was slower during the flashback than he was during the War Arc. The context of the scene actually implies the opposite.
> 
> Don't give me the common sense/natural development argument either. If anything, Flashback A would have been _faster_ than his 47 year-old self due to the scene taking place during A's prime years.
> 
> ...



@ Rocky 
Rocky what ? But tsuande remains conscious after being split in HALF for HOURS . Or she's able to move and blitz Kabuto after having her intercostal lungs severed which actually supersedes drowning. Or her ability to move fast enough to intercept Oro multiple times after he had ready turned her midsection into Swiss cheese. I honestly didn't expect you to say something like that , when you know Tsuandes feats pretty well by now.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 2, 2015)

She can't hit him, he can't kill her, and he can't outlast her.  So Minato either ties with Shiki fuin (battledome feats only answer) or uses a non-suicidal sealing jutsu I'm positive he has.  (what I think would happen in the manga). 

Obviously Kishi wouldn't make Minato take a hit that would blow him up when he laughed at Ei, and he wouldn't crap on Tsunade's regeneration that got hyped to Hashirama levels and declared to make the user unkillable. Fuin jutsu lets Minato win golden boy you're so smart and cool aura without making Senju and a Hokage look weak.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> There is no evidence anywhere in the manga that A was slower during the flashback than he was during the War Arc. The context of the scene actually implies the opposite.



 His chakra levels were considerably lower and were not implied to be tailed beast level until Shippuden. No one was even commenting on his chakra levels or even shitting themselves for that matter.



> Don't give me the common sense/natural development argument either. If anything, Flashback A would have been _faster_ than his 47 year-old self due to the scene taking place during A's prime years.



 Yet you're using the common sense approach too? May I remind you that Raikage mentions that he constantly fought Minato and stated that he was never able to surpass his level of speed which means he continuously got stronger each time they fought. Why would he boast to Naruto about Minato always being faster than him and never being able to surpass him if he got slower? 



> I'm not sure if I buy Tsunade maintaining consciousness after swallowing a Rasengan to the head area without any form of regeneration active.



 Okay, you got me there.


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## Rocky (Feb 2, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Sōzō Saisei/Byakugō no Jutsu only use up as much Chakra as is needed to restore whatever injuries Tsunade sustains, and only in response to her actually sustaining those injuries (you can't fix something if it isn't broken). If the Chakra is being expended constantly it will be only because Tsunade is being attacked constantly, and attacking requires energy even without Hiraishin.



I thought about that, but I'm not sure if that's the case. If it was, I don't see why she wouldn't just keep Creation Rebirth _permanently_ active, as it wouldn't tire her unless she sustained injury, and even then would only drain her slightly unless the wound was severe. 

My take is that a large amount of chakra is expended into the body _upon activation,_ and then the body's healing process is accelerated for the duration of the technique. 



> Seems like an indirect admission that he can't beat her straight up, because it's not like Kamui where if he gets her there she's going to be stuck- she can just go home, meaning this amounts to little more than Minato trying to distance himself from his opponent.



BFR is an old Battledome clause. If she leaves the ring and cannot return to it in a reasonable amount of time, game over.

That said, I was kidding.


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## Rocky (Feb 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> @ Rocky
> Rocky what ? But tsuande remains conscious after being split in HALF for HOURS . Or she's able to move and blitz Kabuto after having her intercostal lungs severed which actually supersedes drowning. Or her ability to move fast enough to intercept Oro multiple times after he had ready turned her midsection into Swiss cheese. I honestly didn't expect you to say something like that , when you know Tsuandes feats pretty well by now.



"Head" injury. Do you see Tsunade walking around with a hold in her face? I can't really picture it.


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## Veracity (Feb 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> "Head" injury. Do you see Tsunade walking around with a hold in her face? I can't really picture it.



The head injury you assume here is less severe then being completely split in half, or having a snapped spinal cord, or having all the organs in your midsection shredded.

Id tsuande can still move after attacks that normally completely paralyze individuals, still breath after moves that supersede the effects of drowning , and still function after areas of her body that control her body are destroyed then I see her being fine for awhile after hole in her head .


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## FlamingRain (Feb 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I thought about that, but I'm not sure if that's the case. If it was, I don't see why she wouldn't just keep Creation Rebirth _permanently_ active, as it wouldn't tire her unless she sustained injury, and even then would only drain her slightly unless the wound was severe.



Do you mean just on an everyday basis? Firstly, why would a woman concerned enough about her appearance that she essentially developed an anti-aging Jutsu want to walk around with all those tattoos all over her body for everyone to see? Secondly, I would imagine that if the seal was in a state of constant release it would never sufficiently be charged back up; it'd be like trying to fill up a pool with the drain still open.

If you mean just in combat, then, she's implied to do just that at least when she's directly involved in it. That was the first thing she did before taking up an active role in the Madara fight, even explaining it as a general rule as she did it, and she never released the technique until the end when she used the rest of it healing the burns she got from Madara's Katon blasts.



> My take is that a large amount of chakra is expended into the body _upon activation,_ and then the body's healing process is accelerated for the duration of the technique.



Well I think it circulates throughout the body upon activation, so okay.

I don't see how that would explain the whole "you can't fix what isn't broken first" issue, though. I mean where the Chakra is in the body ought to be irrelevant to whether or not it is able to be used.


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## Ghost (Feb 2, 2015)

Rocky, I'm pretty sure Ei was in his prime during Shippuden.


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## Rocky (Feb 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> The head injury you assume here is less severe then being completely split in half, or having a snapped spinal cord, or having all the organs in your midsection shredded.
> 
> Id tsuande can still move after attacks that normally completely paralyze individuals, still breath after moves that supersede the effects of drowning , and still function after areas of her body that control her body are destroyed then I see her being fine for awhile after hole in her head .



Define "fine."

Maybe she won't die, but she wasn't really doing much after being split in half. Activating Creation Rebirth with a hole in her brain would be quite the feat.



FlamingRain said:


> Do you mean just on an everyday basis? Firstly, why would a woman concerned enough about her appearance that she essentially developed an anti-aging Jutsu want to walk around with all those tattoos all over her body for everyone to see? Secondly, I would imagine that if the seal was in a state of constant release it would never sufficiently be charged back up; it'd be like trying to fill up a pool with the drain still open.



Creation Rebirth is just a forehead tattoo; she doesn't need to constantly be powering her body with Byakugo.

As for the seal never fully filling, what does it matter? If your take is that no chakra is actually being expended from the body until she's injured, what's the difference between chakra being stored in the seal and held there until release, or chakra being drawn from the seal and "stored" in the body until injury occurs. The latter actually seems superior, as it eliminates the need for her to actually activate Sōzō Saisei. 



> If you mean just in combat, then, she's implied to do just that at least when she's directly involved in it. That was the first thing she did before taking up an active role in the Madara fight, even explaining it as a general rule as she did it, and she never released the technique until the end when she used the rest of it healing the burns she got from Madara's Katon blasts.



I didn't really mean combat, but she didn't use it against Kabuto, and there was absolutely no reason not to.



> I don't see how that would explain the whole "you can't fix what isn't broken first" issue, though. I mean where the Chakra is in the body ought to be irrelevant to whether or not it is able to be used.



Maybe I'm missing something.

If Mitotic Regeneration speeds up mitosis, and mitosis is always occurring in the body regardless of injury, then why does she need to be "broken" in order to be expending chakra?



Saikyou said:


> Rocky, I'm pretty sure Ei was in his prime during Shippuden.



47 is not your "prime."

I don't really think there is a difference between the two A's, but I wouldn't consider the one bordering on 50 to be quicker and more agile than the one in his twenties.


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## SSMG (Feb 2, 2015)

The only way Tsunade can win would be to catch minato right after he strikes like in those movies where's it like "I got you now you quick son of a bitch" then punch his head off..

But I see her doing this maybe 1 or 2 times out of ten so minato takes this much more than not.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 2, 2015)

Sage characters don't walk around in sage mode forever even if they could maintain it indefinitely while not using chakra.  I don't see what the difference is.


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## Veracity (Feb 2, 2015)

@rocky 
Being able to move and operate perfectly fine . Her movements, reactions , and overall health might be lessened , but not even close to incapacitate her from battle.

Not sure how we can compare being split in half to a hole in the head as the former is massively more severe. Tsunade was not only chakra exhausted and not being able to actually move efficiently( severed guts and no legs lol?), but she used her remaining chakra to heal the other kage before herself. In other words , she wasn't even attempting to actually move and heal herself.


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## Rocky (Feb 2, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Sage characters don't walk around in sage mode forever even if they could maintain it indefinitely while not using chakra.  I don't see what the difference is.



They can maintain Sage Mode indefinitely?


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## SSMG (Feb 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> They can maintain Sage Mode indefinitely?



They should be able to no? As long as they don't use senjutsu or just jitsu to diminsh their chakra supply I don't see what's wrong with this notion.


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 2, 2015)

You people are crazy if you think she isn't using up chakra when her seal is activated. Seriously?
If you go fishing and catch no fish, does that mean you didn't go fishing? No. 

If you use a jut sure and have it activated you are using chakra.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> As for the seal never fully filling, what does it matter? If your take is that no chakra is actually being expended from the body until she's injured, what's the difference between chakra being stored in the seal and held there until release, or chakra being drawn from the seal and "stored" in the body until injury occurs.



Remember Ebisu's illustration? Built up Chakra will normally disperse if not directed towards something soon, so I don't think it can just be stored in the body like that for a particularly long amount of time, and the point of the seal is to circumvent this fact- to keep it from naturally dissipating as a result of idleness.



> I didn't really mean combat, but she didn't use it against Kabuto, and there was absolutely no reason not to.



She had no reason to knock Jiraiya into the dirt to charge Kabuto by herself either.

She was in a blind rage and not thinking clearly as a result.



> Maybe I'm missing something.
> 
> If Mitotic Regeneration speeds up mitosis, and mitosis is always occurring in the body regardless of injury, then why does she need to be "broken" in order to be expending chakra?



A couple things...

One is that mitosis _isn't_ always occurring in the body regardless of injury- the vast majority of mature cells enter G0- i.e.- they stop dividing until/unless something induces them into dividing again (like a significant gap appearing between them and other cells- injury).

The other is that speeding up the mitotic process when you haven't suffered any injuries would make you start growing, because you'd just be adding onto the amount of cells you have as opposed to simply replacing them.

Now, Tsunade's still the same size, so…the acceleration only happens in response to injury.



Rocky said:


> They can maintain Sage Mode indefinitely?



Kabuto probably can because he absorbs the necessary energy passively. Idk about the rest, though.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> They can maintain Sage Mode indefinitely?



What sub machine gun said.

Unless you think Naruto burns three rasenshurikens worth of chakra making cup noodles and watching television each day.

Kabuto passively absorbs sage energy, so he should be able to even better.


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## Dr. White (Feb 2, 2015)

Sage Mode users do not indefinitely use the form.

All of her seals use chakra.

She is not immune to being killed. Decapitation = GG.

Tsunade Loses after a long fight of Minato injuring her, or after he decides to BFR her.


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## SSMG (Feb 2, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> You people are crazy if you think she isn't using up chakra when her seal is activated. Seriously?
> If you go fishing and catch no fish, does that mean you didn't go fishing? No.
> 
> If you use a jut sure and have it activated you are using chakra.



I'm simply addressing the sage mode being mantained without using jutsus. 

I believe Tsunade uses chakra keeping her seal active.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 2, 2015)

Sage Mode doesn't just wear off if you haven't even used any sage techniques. The more sage chakra you use (sage techniques), the quicker you'll run out,


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## Dr. White (Feb 2, 2015)

Sage Mode allows you to access ambient Natural Energy. Regardless if one can store that chakra even after using the form, the mode itself is not permanent.


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## SSMG (Feb 2, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Sage Mode allows you to access ambient Natural Energy. Regardless if one can store that chakra even after using the form, the mode itself is not permanent.



Yeah you're right. Minato said he could only use sage mode for a short time but that wouldn't be an issue if it was able to be mantained indefinitely.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 2, 2015)

If sage mode charged raw chakra it would disperse if undirected.  But it charges and stores a building block of chakra, and I don't see any reason why that would degrade more than the other other two building blocks when you're not making chakra,


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 2, 2015)

SSMG said:


> Yeah you're right. Minato said he could only use sage mode for a short time but that wouldn't be an issue if it was able to be mantained indefinitely.



Minato's sm was imperfect.  It's possible he didn't have large enough reserves to build an appreciable charge, and so ran after only a couple of jutsu.  It's not worth using if it takes him forever to charge it, and only gets a couple of hiraishins or a couple rasengans put of it.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 2, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Sage Mode allows you to access ambient Natural Energy. Regardless if one can store that chakra even after using the form, the mode itself is not permanent.



of course it's not permanent, whether jutsu is used or not.

However it will certainly diminish faster depending on the more jutsu you use.

I feel some people also forget that narutos max sage mode time was only 5 minutes before. Not very long at all. So just because minato said he can use it for a short time, doesn't define to us the exact time that he considers "not long". 5 mins and below isn't very long, there is no manga indication of minatos exact time limit. So I always just stick to narutos limit to when he first attained true sage hood.


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## Ghost (Feb 3, 2015)

Rocky said:


> 47 is not your "prime."


How come? The Sannin were all in their 50s at their prime, Madara and Hashirama seemed to be in their 40s.


> I don't really think there is a difference between the two A's, but I wouldn't consider the one bordering on 50 to be quicker and more agile than the one in his twenties.



Just compare Ei's body during Shippuden and the third war. He looks a lot stronger and faster even.


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## Veracity (Feb 3, 2015)

There's actually no proof that decapitation would kill Tsunade and proof that says otherwise...
• surviving being split in half without regeneration( snapped spinal cord, guts spilled on the ground, massive blood lose, etc; stuff that would kill a human in minutes that Tsunade survived for hours)
• being able to breath and blitz Kabuto with her intercostal lungs severed which supersedes drowning . So the very act of breathing and moving makes tsuande inhuman
• having her spinal cord snapped and still being able to fight against Madara's Mokuton Bunshin, when a normal human can be paralyzed for life from a penny sized fracture, break or snap in the spinal column.
• the hype in general of being considered un-killable in battle .

So all in all . Tsunade is less likely to be killed by decapitation..


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## trance (Feb 3, 2015)

Rocky said:


> 47 is not your "prime."
> 
> I don't really think there is a difference between the two A's, but I wouldn't consider the one bordering on 50 to be quicker and more agile than the one in his twenties.



This is fiction, bruh. 

I wouldn't say it's farfetched to say that the Onoki portrayed in the war is superior to the Onoki that fought in tandem with Mu and was still soloed by Madara nor would I say it's a stretch to say that someone like Jiraiya - who was in his mid 50s - was at the peak of his strength before he died.


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## Veracity (Feb 3, 2015)

Tsunade's like the best example of being old and in her prime considering what age she developed Byakago at . Pretty much all the Sannin in general as well as Ay, Danzo( for different reasons), Onoki( after Madara battle but prolly before the war arc... Or will of stone Onnoki); Kakuzu and Mifune prolly .


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## Thunder (Feb 3, 2015)

Tsunade isn't in her prime according to herself. 

Still, Tsunade's old age never held her back in the manga, true. If I remember correctly, the only time Kishi mentioned old age to be a significant handicap for shinobi was when Hiruzen fought. A man who was almost pushing _seventy_.


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## Veracity (Feb 3, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Tsunade isn't in her prime according to herself.
> 
> Still, Tsunade's old age never held her back in the manga, true. If I remember correctly, the only time Kishi mentioned old age to be a significant handicap for shinobi was when Hiruzen fought. A man who was almost pushing _seventy_.



? That was part one Tsunade.... She went on to become Hokage, train significantly, train sakura, and develop a Justu that exceeded anything before in her life. So War arc Tsuande is prime Tsuande. She didn't know back then that she was going to bust out Byakago she she thought she was past her prime.


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## ScottofFury (Feb 3, 2015)

Why is this even a thread. Minato stomps her. Base Minato lolblitzes Tsunade and cuts her head off.


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## Altair21 (Feb 3, 2015)

Minato should win with mid-difficulty. Tsunade's way too slow to even be able to tag Minato and thus her punches are essentially useless. The same doesn't hold true for Minato. He's eventually going to blitz with Hiraishin and once he does Tsunade is done for.


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## Thunder (Feb 3, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> ? That was part one Tsunade.... She went on to become Hokage, train significantly, train sakura, and develop a Justu that exceeded anything before in her life. So War arc Tsuande is prime Tsuande. She didn't know back then that she was going to bust out Byakago she she thought she was past her prime.



Byakugō is "new" from our perspective. It's something Tsunade had for awhile now, just like Jiraiya had Sage Mode for awhile before it was unveiled later on in Part II. 

Tsunade doesn't believe she's in her prime there because she's not young anymore. Do you hear fifty year olds saying they're in their prime? Shinobi can learn new jutsu until they're in their seventies like Hiruzen, and reach their "jutsu prime", but that doesn't change the fact their body is slowly deteriorating does it? That's kinda what age does to human beings. Even those of the superhuman variety.

Prime Tsunade has Sōzō Saisei  / Byakugō _and_ her youth.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 3, 2015)

I don't think she had those two techniques in her youth.

If she did you'd expect Orochimaru and Jiraiya to have recognized it, but they had no idea what it was.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Feb 3, 2015)

Minato wins this just due to the fact she can't touch him while he can still slice and rip her apart. It's impossible to when a battle when you can't hit or realistically fight back.

Minato casually dealt with A's speed and tsunade is a couple of tiers down from the former's. Even if she could regen even from beheading(i don't think so) he just keeps scattering her body parts all over the place like some kind of sick game. Gamabunta can also add extra padding to minato's assured victory.


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## Thunder (Feb 3, 2015)

*@FlamingRain*

Didn't Tsunade develop Sōzō Saisei, at the very least, after she left Konoha? She was still young then and Dan's death was still fresh in her mind.

So even if it took Tsunade a decade to create the jutsu, she would still be in her prime.


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## Veracity (Feb 3, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Byakugō is "new" from our perspective. It's something Tsunade had for awhile now, just like Jiraiya had Sage Mode for awhile before it was unveiled later on in Part II.
> 
> Tsunade doesn't believe she's in her prime there because she's not young anymore. Do you hear fifty year olds saying they're in their prime? Shinobi can learn new jutsu until they're in their seventies like Hiruzen, and reach their "jutsu prime", but that doesn't change the fact their body is slowly deteriorating does it? That's kinda what age does to human beings. Even those of the superhuman variety.
> 
> Prime Tsunade has Sōzō Saisei  / Byakugō _and_ her youth.



Your entire argument is destroyed if I can find the panel that proves that Byakago is something Tsuande recently developed. I'm pretty sure there was panel evidence that Tsuande didn't have Byakago during the Great War, and after that she spent decades gambling and drinking; with absolutely no evidence of practice or the development of Justu.

In most cases old age would effect an individuals,  but in the case that Tsuande is already super resilient and durable on top of that fact that she can activate Byakago which instantly restores cells and gives her a massive chakra boost. I'm pretty sure with that activated + the fact that she actively stores up chakra for massive usage, she can easily attain a physical level equal to that of any age basically. Unless she's literally dying on the battle field, once Tsunade gets back into a regular shape and activates Byakago it should boost her level to the highest point possible. 

So yes, you would have a point if and only if Byakago was a Justu she had developed prior to her 20 year break. & the of course Tsuande would consider her younger age her " prime " considering she had been caught up in gambling and drinking which vastly deteriorated her fighting ability. But after getting back into shape, and most likely devolving a new justu, you could say she easily devolved a new prime. Basically the same with all the Sannin. The more years allowed them to develop new justu, and experience. It clearly could be only have negative effects if( in tsunades case) the Shinobi was out of practice and actually letting the age effect them. I don't think any of he Sannin have reached the age where their physicality is lessening basically. Kishi makes it clear and obvious when they've reached this age; Hirzuen + Onnoki, and the Sannin show no traits of this.

But I'll refer to FlamingRain for the panels.


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## Bonly (Feb 3, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Your entire argument is destroyed if I can find the panel that proves that Byakago is something Tsuande recently developed. I'm pretty sure there was panel evidence that Tsuande didn't have Byakago during the Great War, and after that she spent decades gambling and drinking; *with absolutely no evidence of practice or the development of Justu.*



When Tsunade used Sōzō Saisei Orochi said "seems I'm not the only one developing new jutsu" which hints she developed Sōzō Saisei after the 2nd great war.


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## Thunder (Feb 3, 2015)

*@Likesboss*

If you can find me those panels that would be great, and I'll concede the point. But I can't think of any hard manga or databook info that supports your view that Tsunade was old when she invented her special medical jutsu.

I did consider the possibility Tsunade was only talking about being out of shape there, but "prime" is a very specific word.

When Kakashi was out of shape in Part I he didn't reminisce about his prime state like an older man would. Probably because Kakashi was still young and just needed to brush up on his training. Age had nothing to do with his problem.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 3, 2015)

Thunder said:


> *@FlamingRain*
> 
> Didn't Tsunade develop Sōzō Saisei, at the very least, after she left Konoha? She was still young then and Dan's death was still fresh in her mind.
> 
> So even if it took Tsunade a decade to create the jutsu, she would still be in her prime.



Maybe if she stayed active she would've been, but she actually went and retired.

She would still be out of shape and rusty, even if not _as_ out of shape and rusty as she was when she was first introduced in the manga.

I wouldn't exactly call that her prime.

In shape 30 year old > out of shape 40 year old.


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## Veracity (Feb 3, 2015)

Thunder said:


> *@Likesboss*
> 
> If you can find me those panels that would be great, and I'll concede the point. But I can't think of any hard manga or databook info that supports your view that Tsunade was old when she invented her special medical jutsu.
> 
> ...



Well it seems Tsuande didn't create SS or Byakago till after she left Konoha considering Oro and Jiaryias lack of knowledge of the technique. & considering she wasn't actually physically training until she was hokage + the fact that she she was gambling and drinking; Tsuande couldn't have been in her prime until after she became Hokage. SS and Byakago are large parts of her aresnal and she can't really be considered prime without them . And if you consider the fact that there's a large probability that she developed said Justu in a mentally unstable state where she was an excessive drinker, gambler, and was plagued with a phobia that made her unable to actually engage in battle. So Id assume that in shape Hokage Tsuande is better then her "prime " self, or whatever you consider that to be .

Kakashi is a different situation as being out of shape is far different then being 20 years out of practice on top of the phobia and drinking problems.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 3, 2015)

Thunder already made the distinction between "Jutsu prime" and physicality, Likes boss.


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## Veracity (Feb 3, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Thunder already made the distinction between "Jutsu prime" and physicality, Likes boss.



Lol did I miss something or ...?


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## FlamingRain (Feb 3, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Lol did I miss something or ...?



When you said she can't really be considered in her prime without her regeneration techniques.

She can, because of the distinction between physical prime and Jutsu prime.

I don't think she was in both at the same time, but still.


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## Veracity (Feb 3, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> When you said she can't really be considered in her prime without her regeneration techniques.
> 
> She can, because of the distinction between physical prime and Jutsu prime.
> 
> I don't think she was in both at the same time, but still.



I see what you're saying. The only reason I think she is at her prime being Hokage and all is based on the mechanics of Byakago and her forehead seal. Rapid regeneration and a large boost of chakra should push her to her max essentially. Especially with actual training on the side , as well as the fact that none of the Sannin are implied to have any negative effects via age .


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## Thunder (Feb 3, 2015)

Tsunade was still in good shape physically in Part I and Part II . . . well, not really, because her body aged rapidly after undergoing forcible cell division over a long period of time (which may lend credence to my view that Tsunade had these jutsu for awhile).

I'm not saying war arc Tsunade's performance was poor or anything, I'm saying it would've been even better if she were a bit younger.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 3, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I see what you're saying. The only reason I think she is at her prime being Hokage and all is based on the mechanics of Byakago and her forehead seal. Rapid regeneration and a large boost of chakra should push her to her max essentially. Especially with actual training on the side , as well as the fact that *none of the Sannin are implied to have any negative effects via age .*



Common sense would tell you that that isn't true, regardless of whether Kishimoto made a point of it or not. Old age naturally makes them slower, physically weaker and less agile. No amount of Senju or Uzumaki DNA can undo the effects of aging. They might sustain your body for longer, but that's about it.​​


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## Arles Celes (Feb 3, 2015)

Depends which happens first: Tsunade runs out of byakugou time or Minato runs out of chakra due to Hirashin.

It will be very hard for Tsuande to land a hit on Minato but then again while byakugou is active Tsunade is practically immortal.


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## Veracity (Feb 3, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Tsunade was still in good shape physically in Part I and Part II . . . well, not really, because her body aged rapidly after undergoing forcible cell division over a long period of time (which may lend credence to my view that Tsunade had these jutsu for awhile).
> 
> I'm not saying war arc Tsunade's performance was poor or anything, I'm saying it would've been even better if she were a bit younger.



Tsunade clearly wasn't in good shape in part 1 given that she was at her "limit "by the end of the short battle, given how much slower she was in in battle, and given how much weaker her strikes were. I think it had more to do with her 20 year break if anything considering current Tsuande doesn't seem to be any less capable and she's used Byakago and SS even more.

And yes that is probably true , but that doesn't necessarily go against the intial post you quoted of mine. I agree that a younger Tsuande without a training break would be better in this postition then current Tsuande. But that's the thing, I still think current Tsunade is > to her younger self given the Justu proficiency difference . & that's the reason Tsuande is in her prime as she is overall stronger then her younger self .

@GodaimeTsunade 

I don't think common sense indicates anything here in this magical manga. Especially considering how ridiculously resilient Tsuande is to begin with. You can be in your 40's and be healthier then you were in 20's solely based on how you treat your body lol. So it's not too far fetched to assume any of the Sannin members have reached that limit considering Kishi has not made it evident( like every other character) but also because they genuinely arent that old for super ninja that train for a living.

And lol at Hashirama DNA not sustaining ones speed. Danzo )at an older age then when Hirzuen fought oro) was fighting on par with MS Sasuke who was Performing equal to a V1 Raikage. I very much doubt that if age was truly an issue, he would be able to fight at that level. If his age was truly a problem then he would be much faster then Hirzuen, and that's very unlikely given the Sandaime's superiority in his prime.


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 3, 2015)

Tsunade is so overrated. 
Gambunta isn't needed. 
She can't hit him and he decapitates her. 

He can slice off any limb he wants. She isn't surviving with no hands, legs and head. No head at all. 
She needed Katsuyu's help to heal her after being cut in half. 

He's far more intelligent and analytical.


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## Trojan (Feb 3, 2015)

If the battle happened in the manga, Tsunade would probably break his nick.


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## Kyu (Feb 3, 2015)

Portrayal: Minato wins 

Feats: Minato - wins either via BFR or lopping her head off


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## Trojan (Feb 3, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I don't think she had those two techniques in her youth.
> 
> If she did you'd expect Orochimaru and Jiraiya to have recognized it, but they had no idea what it was.



Jiraiya said Nagato did the impossible and learned the 5 elements. Yet, Hiruzen has all 5 elements, and Jiraiya himself has 4 of them.

Kakashi said he has never seen someone who can use hand seals with 1 hand, but Haku, and yet
Minato can do it to...


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 3, 2015)

^ I believe those situations were more to indicate how impressive such a feat is rather than that it's literally impossible to do it.

 If you look at it from both perspectives, Nagato and Haku were kids at that particular time, so that could have influenced the likelihood of actually being able to do something like that.


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## Trojan (Feb 3, 2015)

And I believe it's more of a retecon. lol


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 3, 2015)

Hussain said:


> And I believe it's more of a retecon. lol



 That could be it as well.

 Kishi is known for fuckin up the plot many times.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 4, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Tsunade clearly wasn't in good shape in part 1 given that she was at her "limit "by the end of the short battle, given how much slower she was in in battle, and given how much weaker her strikes were. I think it had more to do with her 20 year break if anything considering current Tsuande doesn't seem to be any less capable and she's used Byakago and SS even more.
> 
> And yes that is probably true , but that doesn't necessarily go against the intial post you quoted of mine. I agree that a younger Tsuande without a training break would be better in this postition then current Tsuande. But that's the thing, I still think current Tsunade is > to her younger self given the Justu proficiency difference . & that's the reason Tsuande is in her prime as she is overall stronger then her younger self .
> 
> ...



There is literally no proof that Hashirama's DNA effects speed in any way.


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## Veracity (Feb 4, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> There is literally no proof that Hashirama's DNA effects speed in any way.



Yes I know and you know from former posts that I agree with such.

Did you read the post correctly cause I said sustains not increases? As Danzos speed didn't change from his prime to his old age, as I doubt he was faster then V1 AY in his prime.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 4, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Yes I know and you know from former posts that I agree with such.
> 
> Did you read the post correctly cause I said sustains not increases? As Danzos speed didn't change from his prime to his old age, as I doubt he was faster then V1 AY in his prime.



Do you know how fast Danzo was in his so called "prime"? Dont you think Danzo was in his prime when he fought Sasuke? 

Hashirama's DNA doesnt effect, or sustain speed at all. Danzo is just that fast. And there is nothing strange, or irrational about that - he is a kage-level shinobi, after all.


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## Veracity (Feb 4, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Do you know how fast Danzo was in his so called "prime"? Dont you think Danzo was in his prime when he fought Sasuke?
> 
> Hashirama's DNA doesnt effect, or sustain speed at all. Danzo is just that fast. And there is nothing strange, or irrational about that - he is a kage-level shinobi, after all.



I don't need to know how fast Danzo is in his prime to know that he was faster then he was against Sasuke if we would count old age. Did you not see how evident Kishi made it that Hirzuen( younger in part 1) was effected by old age ? His speed, reactions, and overall power was massively lessened and that was OBVIOUS.

Danzo was in his prime against Sasuke because he had massive Justu experience and his endurance/physicality was sustained by Hashirama DNA.

Unless you assume Danzo in his mid 60's is as fast as he was in his 30's depsite the fact that Hirzuen practically was a fossil back in part 1 lol. 

Or unless you assume that Danzo and Hirzuen retained full speed, and that's Danzo( inferior to Hirzuen) was just massively faster, which is also funny.

I hope you are joking Forreal.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 4, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I don't need to know how fast Danzo is in his prime to know that he was faster then he was against Sasuke if we would count old age. Did you not see how evident Kishi made it that Hirzuen( younger in part 1) was effected by old age ? His speed, reactions, and overall power was massively lessened and that was OBVIOUS.
> 
> Danzo was in his prime against Sasuke because he had massive Justu experience and his endurance/physicality was sustained by Hashirama DNA.
> 
> ...



Ok, Danzo's speed decreased with age, but was still good enough to compete with Sasuke. Its as simple as that. Prime Danzo was even faster than that. Because, as i wrote before, Hashirama's DNA doesnt sustain, or effect speed.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 4, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I don't need to know how fast Danzo is in his prime to know that he was faster then he was against Sasuke if we would count old age. Did you not see how evident Kishi made it that Hirzuen( younger in part 1) was effected by old age ? His speed, reactions, and overall power was massively lessened and that was OBVIOUS.
> 
> Danzo was in his prime against Sasuke because he had massive Justu experience and his endurance/physicality was sustained by Hashirama DNA.
> 
> ...



But Danzo could feel himself better because of Hashirama's DNA, as if he was younger. Hashirama's DNA increase stamina.


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## Veracity (Feb 4, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Do you know how fast Danzo was in his so called "prime"? Dont you think Danzo was in his prime when he fought Sasuke?
> 
> Hashirama's DNA doesnt effect, or sustain speed at all. Danzo is just that fast. And there is nothing strange, or irrational about that - he is a kage-level shinobi, after all.





StarWanderer said:


> Ok, Danzo's speed decreased with age, but was still good enough to compete with Sasuke. Its as simple as that. Prime Danzo was even faster than that. Because, as i wrote before, Hashirama's DNA doesnt sustain, or effect speed.



That's the thing, I don't think his speed decreased( and if it , did then it did very little...) because against Sasuke his speed was about V1 Ay's level( he was fighting on par with Sasuke who could duck under the Raikage's elbow). Danzo has never been known for speed, and just having V1 Ay speed alone makes him a speedster. If age was to effect him, that means he is a speedster at a worse condition then Hirzuen was in part 1, and his performence was said to be pitiful. That would also mean that in his " prime" he would have been faster then V1 Ay which I am just doubtful of. Danzo> V1 Raikage in speed  just doesn't sound right in any sense. So I'm gonna assume he was at that speed level at a young age considering the effects age had on a younger Hirzuen.

So I think it's heavily implied that Hashiramas DNA sustained his speed. He was in his 60's( think about Hirzuens performence) and matching an MS User in CQC. I'm doubtful that he was any faster in his younger state.


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## 08monaa (Feb 4, 2015)

Tsunade Mid-Diff
Getting tagged isn't written in the stars and she's an intelligent medic so she''ll find out that she has a glowing marker somewhere across her body.She has intel so she's not going to allow him to come in contact and if Tsunade is bloodlusted she'll go at anything to make sure he is obliterated one strike to the ground can either severely damage him or throw him off balance then come in for the strike with Byakugo activated.
Katsuyu if unrestricted makes this a Destroy.


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## sabre320 (Feb 4, 2015)

08monaa said:


> Tsunade Mid-Diff
> Getting tagged isn't written in the stars and she's an intelligent medic so she''ll find out that she has a glowing marker somewhere across her body.She has intel so she's not going to allow him to come in contact and if Tsunade is bloodlusted she'll go at anything to make sure he is obliterated one strike to the ground can either severely damage him or throw him off balance then come in for the strike with Byakugo activated.
> Katsuyu if unrestricted makes this a Destroy.



lol a tsunade fanboy a rare species indeed


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 4, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> @GodaimeTsunade
> 
> I don't think common sense indicates anything here in this magical manga. Especially considering how ridiculously resilient Tsuande is to begin with. You can be in your 40's and be healthier then you were in 20's solely based on how you treat your body lol.



Biologically, you are at your physical prime in your 20s. It's downhill from there. If a 20 year old and 40 year old trained at a completely identical rate, the 20 year old would still have more gains than the 40 year old. Tsunade is a physical monster who has trained her body more than your average joe, but she would probably be in even better shape if she was younger. That's a fact, and not one that the manga would dispute either.



> So it's not too far fetched to assume any of the Sannin members have reached that limit considering Kishi has not made it evident( like every other character) but also because they genuinely arent that old for super ninja that train for a living.



Tsunade has endured an unnatural amount of aging, which is resilience in itself, true, but that doesn't make her immune to it's effects. She ultimately still feels the effects of aging like any other character, even if it isn't to the same extent. Hiruzen's stamina and physical strength deteriorated in his old age, as did Onoki's, as did practically any other old character's. Tsunade has a longer life than them because she's an Uzumaki, but she's still going to gradually become physically weaker as time goes on. 



> And lol at Hashirama DNA not sustaining ones speed. Danzo )at an older age then when Hirzuen fought oro) was fighting on par with MS Sasuke who was Performing equal to a V1 Raikage. I very much doubt that if age was truly an issue, he would be able to fight at that level. If his age was truly a problem then he would be much faster then Hirzuen, and that's very unlikely given the Sandaime's superiority in his prime.



Danzou's speed was never sufficient enough alone to land hits on Sasuke. It was average at best. His high taijutsu skill and Izanagi are what predominantly sustained him, not his speed. There is no evidence to suggest that Hashirama's DNA had any effect on his speed either. 

And besides anything else, making a comparison between Tsunade and Danzou's Hashirama DNA is unfair in the first instance. Tsunade possesses a limited amount of her grandfather's DNA, and what she does possess is probably watered down by the inheritance of her own parents genes'. Danzou injected a large amount of Hashirama's untainted, preserved DNA into himself, an undoubtedly larger amount than what Tsunade possesses. 

Its only natural that Danzou's physical capabilities were less than what they were when he was younger, even if they were still impressive when he was old.



sabre320 said:


> lol a tsunade fanboy a rare species indeed



Start getting used to them. ​​


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## Jad (Feb 5, 2015)

08monaa said:


> Tsunade Mid-Diff
> Getting tagged isn't written in the stars and she's an intelligent medic so she''ll find out that she has a glowing marker somewhere across her body.She has intel so she's not going to allow him to come in contact and if Tsunade is bloodlusted she'll go at anything to make sure he is obliterated one strike to the ground can either severely damage him or throw him off balance then come in for the strike with Byakugo activated.
> Katsuyu if unrestricted makes this a Destroy.



Are you being sarcastic?  If not, than every character in your post is wrong. It isn't even remotely up for debate. 



sabre320 said:


> lol a tsunade fanboy a rare species indeed



....are yiu being sarcastic as well.

Tsunde isn't winning this, a kunai to the head puts her out.  If you think she lives which I can land a thousand reasons why she wwouldn't,  than she won't have the motorskills or cognitive ability let alone the conciousness to pull a kunai out of her head. Thus this "she doesn't die" situation would be like dividing by zero until someone pulls the kunai from her hear and thus universe explodes. Though as I have stated a brain injury leaves her dead.

If Madara in juubi form can nearly die from a kick by Gai, Tsunade is even more likely to die by brain damage like.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 5, 2015)

Jad said:


> She won't have the motorskills or cognitive ability let alone the conciousness to pull a kunai out of her head.



You know this how?

Edo Tensei have the ability to "die" until their bodies are reformed again, as evidenced by Haku, Zabuza, Hanzo, "Madara", etc. during the war. Then we see a Senju get his head half blown off along with half of his torso and not only "live" but keep activating ninjutsu in the meantime. Because of the aforementioned examples we can't just attribute all that to his being an Edo Tensei at the time, so...what other factor separates him from these other examples here?

His ancestry? Wait, you mean his ancestry which he largely _shares with Tsunade_ (her other ancestors being from that annoying cockroach-resilient Uzumaki clan that never dies when they're supposed to)?

Oh snap.

I think she's gonna be okay.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Jiraiya said Nagato did the impossible and learned the 5 elements. Yet, Hiruzen has all 5 elements, and Jiraiya himself has 4 of them.
> 
> Kakashi said he has never seen someone who can use hand seals with 1 hand, but Haku, and yet
> Minato can do it to...


On the first point, that was 'at such a young age', that was the unprecedented part of Nagato mastering all five elements at age 10 when it usually takes a lifetime to master all five.


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## Veracity (Feb 5, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Biologically, you are at your physical prime in your 20s. It's downhill from there. If a 20 year old and 40 year old trained at a completely identical rate, the 20 year old would still have more gains than the 40 year old. Tsunade is a physical monster who has trained her body more than your average joe, but she would probably be in even better shape if she was younger. That's a fact, and not one that the manga would dispute either.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm just going to mostly agree with you on the prime part as Tsunade probably is physically inferior to her younger self just not by much. It still doesn't change the fact that the timeframe she developed SS and Byakago would make her Hokage incarnation her strongest, but I'm not even sure if you even refuted that.

But I am not agreeing on the Danzo part at all .

Danzos CQC ability was sufficient enough to almost equal Sasukes at certain points: 
*not until his susanoo was blown back by the attack *
*not until his susanoo was blown back by the attack *
*not until his susanoo was blown back by the attack *

And this is the same Sasuke who does this against the Raikage: 
*not until his susanoo was blown back by the attack *
*not until his susanoo was blown back by the attack *

Hirzuen has more taijjstu hype than Danzo, as well as being seen as completely superior to him in his prime. So if we assume that Hashiramas DNA had no effect on Danzo, then Hirzuen would have had a much better chance in a cqc skirmish against a Sasuke who can react finely to Raikage. & that's were its laughable, because based on Hiruzens feats: *not until his susanoo was blown back by the attack *

Cause in my opinion Hirzuen would have been stomped in CQC against EMS Sasuke, and considering  Danzo has less hype and even older, I'm pretty sure Hashiramas DNA sustained is speed from his prime or damn near it. 

I never made a comparison between Tsuande and Danzos Hashirama DNA...


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## StarWanderer (Feb 5, 2015)

> That's the thing, I don't think his speed decreased( and if it , did then it did very little...) because against Sasuke his speed was about V1 Ay's level( he was fighting on par with Sasuke who could duck under the Raikage's elbow). Danzo has never been known for speed, and just having V1 Ay speed alone makes him a speedster. If age was to effect him, that means he is a speedster at a worse condition then Hirzuen was in part 1, and his performence was said to be pitiful. That would also mean that in his " prime" he would have been faster then V1 Ay which I am just doubtful of. Danzo> V1 Raikage in speed just doesn't sound right in any sense. So I'm gonna assume he was at that speed level at a young age considering the effects age had on a younger Hirzuen.
> 
> So I think it's heavily implied that Hashiramas DNA sustained his speed. He was in his 60's( think about Hirzuens performence) and matching an MS User in CQC. I'm doubtful that he was any faster in his younger state.



There is nothing senseless in Danzo being as fast, or faster than V1 Ei, because he is a kage level shinobi and could become Hokage. Hashirama's DNA could just make him feel himself better, because it increases stamina, so he didnt feel age effects as much as Hiruzen. 

And to be honest, i doubt Danzo was faster than V1 Ei. But i think they were at the same speed class.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Feb 5, 2015)

Danzo and v1 Ay at the same speed level HAHAHA!

And people still reply to this clown. Has it not yet sunk in that he's a troll.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 5, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Danzo and v1 Ay at the same speed level HAHAHA!
> 
> And people still reply to this clown. Has it not yet sunk in that he's a troll.



LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. 

Do you know that there are such things called *feats*?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 5, 2015)

The feats only approach doesn't work.

For most of the series Madara had hype and portrayal, but no feats to speak of, outside of being mentioned to have been killed by Hashirama, who himself had no feats.

Konohamaru, on the other hand, had feats.  Iruka had feats.  PI Sakura had feats.  If pre-war arc you made a thread that had Konohamaru vs Madara, then by a feat only interpretation, you'd tell me that Konohamaru wins because Madara is featless.  It should be readily apparent that that's wrong on many levels, but Feat Only Man (Patent Pending) would sit and insist you point to Madara's feats to prove Sakura doesn't butcher him.

If you defend Feats Only Man (TM), I'd like to point out that he was proven wrong by Madara fighting the five kage.  This doesn't mean that FOM (NSFW) wasn't "right" until Madara got feats.  He was always wrong, because Madara was always that strong.

The second and more fundamental reason the Feats Only Approach (Copyright Circa 2000-now), falls apart, is that all feats are relative to other feats.  Especially your version where every feat against a featless character doesn't count.  Let's review.

Start of series Naruto has no feats outside of Iruka and Mizuki.  Iruka and Mizuki have no feats outside of each other.  AKA, they are two featless characters fighting each other.  Therefore, Naruto gains no feats from them.  Sasuke and Sakura appear with Naruto, and they fight Kakashi in the Bell Game, but Kakashi is featless, and he can't gain feats against the Genin Trio, because as we've already established, all three of them are featless.  Sasuke and Sakura because their only showing is against featless Kakashi, and Naruto because his only fights were against featless chunin.  Sasuke engages two featless Chunin, as does Kakashi, but their opponents were featless so Kakashi and Sasuke thus remain featless.  Kakashi then goes to fight Zabuza, but Zabuza is featless, and Kakashi is also featless, so nothing happens there.  Featless Haku arrives, so there goes that.  

Moving on, we get a bunch of featless Genin in the Chunin Exams performing against each other, and with Team 7 logically having no feats, they have no benchmark to compare against each other.  Orochimari appears in all his featless glory, and shows off against featless Genin, and later, featless Kakashi.  Kakashi sort of becomes a series benchmark of power around this point, being used as a marker against Gaara, Kabuto, Guy, and the Sannin, but that's all portrayal, narrative intent, and statements not backed by solid feats, and therefore useless under your logic.

This continues until the time skip, where even more confusion occurs, because every character is practically brand new, and continues until the end of the manga.  There you have it.  The Wander's guide to a 100% the Featless Naruto.  (PHD M.D.)

Now what you require is some sort of method to validate the first feat.  Kishi uses statements, portrayal, narrative intention, and hype to do this.  We know Kakashi is above the genin because he is a Jonin.  We know Kakashi is exceptional among Jonin, despite having seen no other standard Jonin until post Wave Arc, because he's praised by Zabuza, who himself is evaluated by the introduction of the Bingo Book.  So we know where this fight stands in relation to other fights were could expect through the world.  This establishes Kakashi as a benchmark against which other high level characters can be compared.  Kabuto is around Kakashi level, which is below Sannin/Kage level because Orochimaru showed and told us Kakashi couldn't even compete with him, and Kakashi admitted he was correct.  From this basis we can start forming teirs and hiarchies, and then we can begin introducing feats to qualify battles between members within the same tiers to guess at their outcome.  That will, for a long time, give us a strong and coherent system by which we can evaluate matches. Evaluating a manga with a feats exclusive system is like trying to leverage a mountain without a fulcrum.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 5, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> You know this how?
> 
> Edo Tensei have the ability to "die" until their bodies are reformed again, as evidenced by Haku, Zabuza, Hanzo, "Madara", etc. during the war. Then we see a Senju get his head half blown off along with half of his torso and not only "live" but keep activating ninjutsu in the meantime. Because of the aforementioned examples we can't just attribute all that to his being an Edo Tensei at the time, so...what other factor separates him from these other examples here?
> 
> ...



I'd like to point out that Madara's Izanagi activated post-mortum.  Proving jutsu can keep going and be activated after death, and they can revive you.



> There is nothing senseless in Danzo being as fast, or faster than V1 Ei, because he is a kage level shinobi and could become Hokage.



And omg. If you're going to allow this for Danzo, you need to equally apply this to Minato as well.  Minato was and did become Hokage, and apparently a better candidate than Danzo considering he got the position over Danzo, but is not as fast as V1 Ei because Ei is featless despite being a Kage candidate and indeed a kage.  You can't flip back and forth between demanding pure feats from others, while using narrative interpretation, portrayal, rank, and liberal guesswork for yourself, without being completely inconsistent and contradictory.  Inconsistency and contradiction are the antithesis to a logically structured premise for reason interpretations, and worse, for debate.  You can't expect people to listen to you when you use narrative, rank, and portrayal in lieu of feats to support yourself in one breath, and then decry others for doing the same thing, and not taking a feats only structure the text.  Well you can, but then you're admitting that one of your own positions is false, on the basis that you can't logically hold A and Not A to be true at the same time. But we're going around in circles here.


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## Veracity (Feb 5, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> There is nothing senseless in Danzo being as fast, or faster than V1 Ei, because he is a kage level shinobi and could become Hokage. Hashirama's DNA could just make him feel himself better, because it increases stamina, so he didnt feel age effects as much as Hiruzen.
> 
> And to be honest, i doubt Danzo was faster than V1 Ei. But i think they were at the same speed class.



Danzo is not faster then V1 Raikage, and I'm pretty he never was . Just being a hokage doesn't warrant you are faster then that as Hirzuen and Tsuande are not. Not has Danzo EVER Been implied to be at that speed level. The speed of Raikage is hyped to be extremely fast even if it isn't V2.

& there you just proved my point. Making him " feel better ," boosting his stamina, and taking away the effects of old age is what sustained his speed. That's basically the main point I've been trying to push here. 

And yeah I'm pretty sure Danzo was in the same speed class as Ay in his prime, which is damn near indentical to where he was at against Sasuke seeing as he was catching Sasuke off guard in CQC a few times.


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## Jad (Feb 5, 2015)

Simply can't agree with your statements FlashRain. Just because Edo Tensei and Suigetsu can reform their brains in a magical secondary ability way, doesn't mean Tsunade can. I get it, this is a magical ninja manga, but for all intents and purposes, Tsunade was just a really powerful, strong human ninja with no secondary abilities like the Hozuki clan, or Forbidden soul in a lump of dirt and corpse, or human puppet, or snake ritual experiment. She is a human with the magical ability to heal her human body at a faster rate by cell mitosis, at the expense of aging more quickly. She falls in line closer with Chouji, whose body got rattled by sound vibrations because, as explained by Dosu, the body is 70% water. Tsunade falls closer in line with Hinata who had heart palpitation problems.

Just because character A and B can do so and so, doesn't mean Tsunade does as well, or survive in the same way. I mean, if Tsunade is melted into a bloody pile, like Suigetsu can do in water form, does that mean Tsunade can regenerate from that and become whole again?

I get it, Uzumaki clan people are resilient, and Senjutsu are all so powerful, but remember, Senjutsu were dieing from arrows and simple kunai's to the gut. In fact, Hashirama was going to do that very thing to kill himself, a Kunai to the gut. Madara knew he would die and stopped him. Hell, Madara stabbed Hashirama in the back with a Katana expecting him to die from that.

I mean, there is little to no evidence that any character survives a head shot in Kishi's manga. Whether they have a magical beat inside of them, or are king of the hill in the ninja world.

I know you're gonna come at me with some sought of response that tries to prove that Suigetsu, Edo Tensei, Orochimaru, Sasosri, diddly-do and Tsunade are the same, by trying to show me all these dots that lead them together. But the simplest explanation is better in my opinion.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I'd like to point out that Madara's Izanagi activated post-mortum.  Proving jutsu can keep going and be activated after death, and they can revive you.



The Sharingan is probably one of the most plot driven devices in this manga. But I won't use that as my arguement, I will just say that the Sharingan can be designed to be programmed. Just like Shisui's eye genjutsu. It's a programmable device that can be shared, swapped, and so forth. Tsunade's ability has not shown previously it can do so, or been proven without doubt. 

This is what I dislike about Tsunade fan debates, they take character A, and anything they can do means Tsunade can with her ability or survivability or technique, and so forth.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 5, 2015)

See, you missed my point. To tell you the truth I'm actually thinking you missed it _on purpose_, but that's neither here nor there.

I led with the question for a reason.

My point was that you have no (tenable) basis for saying that Tsunade is going to die by having a Kunai shoved in her brain. You just assert it, but you don't ever bring any arguments relevant to Tsunade into it. There are just no good reasons that you can pull out of this manga in order to support your stance, but there are plenty of good reasons for us to think Tsunade can survive such an injury.

Repeat it all you want, but Tsunade is most definitely *not* a normal human being, she is not even normal by ninja standards; her lineage is special- Senju and Uzumaki, both related to the younger brother that inherited the sage's life force, physical energy, etc. and both producing ninja showcasing inhuman survivability. That detail is why it isn't surprising that Tsunade has her own feats of inhuman survivability such as getting split in half and yet still being primarily concerned with everybody else instead of herself.

How you figure that she somehow falls in line closer with Choji than she does her own family members in regard to physicality is beyond me. You just made that up and it makes no flipping sense whatsoever. I might even say it's outright stupid because I can almost guarantee you that if Choji was split in half he would do nothing but die right then and there.

Konan probably falls in line closer with Choji when she's not using her ninjutsu, but activating her technique enables her to turn her body- head included, into paper. Sasori apparently came up with a way to put his heart in a can which he placed in a puppet and still retain his consciousness and rationality. The purpose of those examples is _not_ to say that Tsunade is _exactly_ like them, merely that we can't just automatically rule out the brain being included in the effects of certain techniques from the outset without first giving a good reason (which you've, again, failed to do).

Similarly, the purpose of the Tobirama example is also_ not _to say that Tsunade can regenerate from _anything_ that an Edo Tensei can (like getting hit by Madara's meteor and being reduced to particles), merely that it is possible for a ninja to survive injury to the brain and also not cease functioning immediately (because if it weren't possible, the precedent has been set that Tobirama should have been dropped until his body was rebuilt).

Now, when explaining the Jutsu mechanics of Tsunade's regeneration technique in particular Kishimoto stated Tsunade could recreate all of her organs and parts. _That encompasses the brain_, and as such, it is evidence of Tsunade being able to survive a headshot.

So, we have a statement suggesting that Tsunade can regenerate her brain and that has not been demonstrated to be false. This is on top of us seeing her and her relatives survive injuries that should kill people immediately for a while.

I'll ask you yet again: how exactly do you know that Tsunade isn't going to have the motor-skills, cognitive ability, or consciousness to pull a kunai out of her head?

As far as I can tell the body of facts we have right now all points in the opposite direction.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 6, 2015)

> Danzo is not faster then V1 Raikage, and I'm pretty he never was . Just being a hokage doesn't warrant you are faster then that as Hirzuen and Tsuande are not. Not has Danzo EVER Been implied to be at that speed level. The speed of Raikage is hyped to be extremely fast even if it isn't V2.
> 
> & there you just proved my point. Making him " feel better ," boosting his stamina, and taking away the effects of old age is what sustained his speed. That's basically the main point I've been trying to push here.
> 
> And yeah I'm pretty sure Danzo was in the same speed class as Ay in his prime, which is damn near indentical to where he was at against Sasuke seeing as he was catching Sasuke off guard in CQC a few times.



Feats >>> portrayl. 

Well, Hashirama's DNA doesnt give a *speed* boost. Thats what i am talking about. But yeah, with Hashirama's DNA, Danzo could not feel age effects as bad as Hiruzen.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 6, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The feats only approach doesn't work.
> 
> For most of the series Madara had hype and portrayal, but no feats to speak of, outside of being mentioned to have been killed by Hashirama, who himself had no feats.
> 
> ...



Well, the manga ended. And we know about characters power levels through Manga and Databooks. In this case, feats and Databook statements are the main things we should pay attention to. Right now, Madara is the second strongest shinobi after Hashirama and his later alive Rinnegan-Sage Mode self (he beats any alive shinobi, except Hashirama, himself with Hashirama's Sage Mode and Rinnegan, 8 Gates Guy and God-likes with 6 Paths chakra boosts), because he has great feats.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 6, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I'm just going to mostly agree with you on the prime part as Tsunade probably is physically inferior to her younger self just not by much. It still doesn't change the fact that the timeframe she developed SS and Byakago would make her Hokage incarnation her strongest, but I'm not even sure if you even refuted that.



No, I would agree that Byakugou Tsunade would probably be stronger than a younger incarnation without it.



> But I am not agreeing on the Danzo part at all .
> 
> Danzos CQC ability was sufficient enough to almost equal Sasukes at certain points:
> Link removed
> ...



You confuse taijutsu skill with raw speed. Although Danzou was by no means slow, it was his battle intuition in close-quarters combat ie. his taijutsu proficiency, that ultimately allowed him to match Sasuke, who was not as adept as he was in that field. In the example where Danzou grappled a hold of Sasuke's neck, he took advantage of the fact that Sasuke was airborne and incapable of dodging. Sasuke left himself open for a direct attack, so by anticipating his movements and making a well timed strike, he was able to grab a hold of him in time. The example with Sasuke vs Ei is an unfair comparison, because in that situation Sasuke hadn't left himself wide open and defenceless to a potential counter attack from the Raikage, like he did with Danzou. 

The example of Sasuke's Susano'o arrow trying to impale Danzou exemplifies his inferiority to Sasuke in physical speed, and not his ability to match it. He notes that he has no time to make handseals, nor to dodge. He has to rely on Hashirama's mokuton to jump out and redirect the attack. When he manages to impale Sasuke, it again comes down to the fact that he has greater taijutsu proficiency than Sasuke, and also to the fact that Sasuke was temporarily blinded in one eye.

We see examples of raw taijutsu skill overcoming faster foes all the time. For instance, with Hiruzen vs Orochimaru. Despite being a 1.5 behind his student in speed, Hiruzen could still _match_ and ultimately _out-do_ Orochimaru in CQC because his taijutsu skill was greater. At the end of the day, had Danzou's speed never been an issue, he wouldn't have had to waste his sharingan eyes on Izanagi to escape Sasuke's attacks. 

There is clearly no evidence to suggest Hashirama's DNA improved Danzou's speed.



> I never made a comparison between Tsuande and Danzos Hashirama DNA...



You insinuated that, because you think Hashirama's DNA affects Danzou's speed, that therefore Hashirama's DNA must also affect Tsunade's. That is a comparison.​​


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## Veracity (Feb 6, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Feats >>> portrayl.
> 
> Well, Hashirama's DNA doesnt give a *speed* boost. Thats what i am talking about. But yeah, with Hashirama's DNA, Danzo could not feel age effects as bad as Hiruzen.



Well then I won't see why we are disagreeing then lol. I don't believe Hashiramas DNA increases speed anyway, just  sustains it.. As Danzo was around that same speed when he was younger.


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## Veracity (Feb 6, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> No, I would agree that Byakugou Tsunade would probably be stronger than a younger incarnation without it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's the thing, wouldn't old age effect how one fights in CQC to begin with ? You already admitted that ones body weakens and deteriorates over time. So Danzo at an age older then 65, was moving, dodging, and reacting to an MS user without his age effecting him at all? You also don't take into consideration that Danzo was around 5 years older against Sasuke then Hirzuen was against oro.  I mean that just doesn't even sound right to begin with being honest. 

& that's the thing here, you cannot be taijustu  proficient, without having the body to match it. Hirzuens taijustu performance against Oro would have probably been 10x if he was in his prime just based on the fact that his body was old and weakened. 

The thing is, Sasuke jumped off of the bird:_out-do_
Meaning he was actually traveling at Danzo at massive speeds. Then there's the fact that weakened and airborne Sasuke was able to dodge V1 bee here: _out-do_
So the airborne argument doesn't work here. A weakened Sasuke already reacted to a speedster while airborne without being touched, so Danzo being able to get off the choke is impressive.

The example of Ay can be compared to Sasuke and Danzo both stabbing eachother in CQC, while Sasuke was able to duck under Ays elbow casually.  If anything that shows their CQC prowess about equal which is far more impressive then what Hirzuen was doing against oro. There's also the fact that Hirzuen had a magical staff helping him in battle, lessening the actual work he had to do. If Hirzuen actually used his body in CQC, he would have had a much harder time against the KAGE and oro. Then add on the fact that Kage summit arc MS Sasuke would absolutely rape oro or Hirzuen in CQC, and nothing really adds up. If Danzo truly was affected like Hirzuen was by age then he wouldn't have been able to land any hits on an MS user like Sasuke. It's as simple as that. 

Lol that's a poor excuse. Danzo needed his eyes to survive against Sussano + amaterasu spam , which is massively superior to Chunnin exam arc oro. We aren't even debating that either, we are talking about his physical prowess.

See this is the thing that's actually annoying me, you can read over my posts a billion times and I never once said Hashiramas DNA increased speed. I clearly said sustained a shit ton of times and I know you know what that means. Pretty sure not even younger Danzo would have outdone an MS user like Sasuke.

Yeah .. I never once insinuated anything. You literally just inserted that randomly and it has NOTHING to do with anything I said.


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