# War Saga Skirmish - Tsunade vs Kakashi .



## Android (Mar 20, 2017)

OP :
- Tsunade knows about Kakashi's MS ability . Kakashi has full knowledge on Tsunade except Byakugo seal .
- No restrictions , both start fresh . IC .
- Initial distance is 45 meters .
- Sasuke vs Danzo is the location .

Has Kakashi (pre six paths buff) surpassed Godaime Sama ?


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## FlamingRain (Mar 20, 2017)

Kakashi probably uses the Mangakyo at the start of the match and wins. Probably.


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## LostSelf (Mar 20, 2017)

I see you didn't restrict Kamui.

So you might hate me but...

....
...

....

...
.
.
..
...
Kamui GG


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## Android (Mar 20, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> I see you didn't restrict Kamui.
> 
> So you might hate me but...
> 
> ...


Why would i hate on you ?


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## Veracity (Mar 20, 2017)

I haven't seen Kakashi vs Tsuande in a long ass time. With the amount of knowledge Kakashi has, it would really be wise to use Kamui early, eventually Tsuande is going to stop killing Katsuyu via LoS blockers and lose lol.


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## LostSelf (Mar 20, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Why would i hate on you ?



Everybody hates Kamui GG.


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## Sinevelle (Mar 20, 2017)

The question is if Kakashi is able to Kamui something of this size:
*Spoiler*: __ 








But to be serious. I think it would be tough fight for both sides. Many people underestimate Tsunade because she lacks any flashy jutsus, forgetting the fact that she is nearly immortal, possess high intelligence, can summon boss sized Katsuyu which further enhances the regenerative ability and spews fountains of acid; and on top of that nearly unmatched strength.

Full knowledge benefits Tsunade more than Kakashi. Kamui is by far a biggest threat in Kakashi's arsenal which can be a surprising instant death for someone not aware. Tsunade has potentially counter Kamui by sacrificing chunks of Katsuyu, however I'm not sure if that would work for certain. Evading is certainly a possibility and she can even make use of ground rocks to block the vision if necessary. Furthermore if Kakashi doesn't instantly kill Tsunade with Kamui, she can quite quickly regenerate. Katsuyu is too big for Kakashi to target and the longer the fight takes the more disadvantageous Kakashi becomes.

In my opinion this is a close call with a slight advantage for Kakashi. Kamui can be lethal for Tsunade so can be her punch for Kakashi. Tsunade is on a disadvantage from the start, Kakashi can potentially finish it quicky, but if she pulls through and tires Kakashi, she has a chance of winning.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 3


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## Android (Mar 20, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Everybody hates Kamui GG.


How do you hate something that doesn't exist / never existed ?


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 20, 2017)

You could have made a legitimate argument for Wind-Arc Kakashi winning this fight, given his overt advantage in speed, variety of ninjutsu and strategy back then, and now if you include through the Pain Invasion Arc, Kage Summit Arc and War Arc, Kakashi's gained several feats which I am not convinced Tsunade's will be able to overcome.  Even if we preclude his overall mastery of Kamui, he also gained a couple of feats in genjutsu, several different elemental ninjutsu and physically he had some gains in speed which made Obito compliment him.

Given the match conditions, I do not see Kakashi being surprised by much, as even with Byakugou being a different technique he doesn't know about, he still knows that he cannot afford a direct hit from her. Whereas her fighting style is predicated on reckless abandonment of her body which will likely lead to a RKB + Headshot Raikiri.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Bonly (Mar 20, 2017)

Depends on how Tsunade fights. Kamui is the only way Kakashi is likely to beat Tsunade but he needs to get close in order to get a good shot and since Tsunade is a CQC person he'd have a good shot finally beating her but with Tsunade knowing about this, she could summon Katsuyu and with all the clones of Katsuyu of different sizes running around who could possibly absorb Tsunade and travel, Kakashi prolly wouldn't win and would go blind if he start using Kamui. So I'd say this could go either way.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ishmael (Mar 20, 2017)

Its kamui GG, 45 methere is the distance also so yea its over. Kamui is simply a technique many can know about but you can't stop it tsunade gets warped and shipped off.


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## LostSelf (Mar 20, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> How do you hate something that doesn't exist / never existed ?



It does. Against big threats, Kakashi has opted for Kamui quick, like how he was going to snipe Obito when he thouight he was Madara, for example. 

Kakashi going Kamui quick is not out of his possibilities if he knows the enemy is too much for him. You could make a case for Madara and Obito together, but there Kamui was not going to be useful as Madara was edo and Obito could've saved him either way.

Kamui is like Amaterasu. Plot has pulled it back, but without it, the jutsu is deadly.

But it's war Kakashi who's more dangerous because he actually used it offensively against threats hard to kill. Like Gedo Mazo.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 20, 2017)

Kakashi one of the few characters that almost participate in battle for each arc. Or even 2-3 sometimes.
And besides his P1 fights. He had kamui for all those battles in p2.. And like ı said he has so many battle features against different persons in different scenarios.

But ı didnt see any kamui gg in this series on a mobile object besides Deidara who has attention on Naruto. Actually ı never saw a 1 vs 1 battle victory for Kakashi except Kakashi Gaiden Kakashi Vs Kakkô .

So ı dont buy that kamui gg against a one of the best cqc fighter with one of the best summon.. And Kakashi need to finish this with head shot or all body. She is probably able to create or heal her limbs .(like how she did to her torso).

Tsunade can take Raikiri but Kakashi cant deal with neuron system blocker or Tsunade's byakuga amped CES punch.

This fight can go to either way IMO. But if Tsunade has full knowledge, but Kakashi aint know about Byakugo..Im kinda slighty towards on Tsunade's side here..

Tsunade with mid -high diff.



LostSelf said:


> Like Gedo Mazo.


Yeah huge stable target but even against it he aimed to head but only able to shoot its upper arm  
So if he was miss that how he is gonna hit Tsunade w/o any problem from the start like that easily ?




LostSelf said:


> Kamui is like Amaterasu. Plot has pulled it back, but without it, the jutsu is deadly.


This is agreeable but sill amaterasu and enton variation has far more succesfull and usefull feats.


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## Parallaxis (Mar 20, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Yeah huge stable target but even against it he aimed to head but only able to shoot its upper arm
> So if he was miss that how he is gonna hit Tsunade w/o any problem from the start like that easily ?


He missed because Madara summoned it away and he was nearly blind, not because he couldn't aim it correctly.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 20, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> He missed because Madara summoned it away and he was nearly blind, not because he couldn't aim it correctly.


Still it was a huge and slow thing.


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## Muah (Mar 20, 2017)

As far as im concerned Tsunade is on another level from Kakashi. He lost to zabuza, was scared shitless of Oro and respected Jiriya. The closest thing he did to fighting anybody near that level is hidan and if I remember right hidan was about to kill him. 

Tsunade, had a rough run in with Zabuza, fought a little with Oro and did her thing against madara. Not much cannon fights vut she fights on another level. She would make short work of KAkashi. With Kishi writing it he would probably Bushin feint his way to victory. Though from part 1 we saw the huge difference skill wise between an elite jounin vs a sannin.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## Android (Mar 20, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> He missed because Madara summoned it away and he was nearly blind, not because he couldn't aim it correctly.


Wasn't he aiming for the head ? instead of the arm ? i don't think the summoning had anything to do with that .
It's a fact that Kakashi after JJ Obito's fight was losing sight and he needed to be carried around on Gaara's sand to get a good shot at Madara's TSB .

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Muah (Mar 20, 2017)

Im prepared for Kashitards to dislike my post for the next 7 months.


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## UltimaDude (Mar 20, 2017)

I don't see Tsunade winning this at all. Being stronger won't help you if you can't hit your opponent. Why can't people understand such a simple concept. Kakashi is much faster and strategic than Tsunade? He also has Raikiri and Kamui, two jutsus that he easily execute and will pretty much end Tsunade if aimed at the right spot (the heart and head). Also, bringing up Katsuyu will make the debate moot since it pretty much means that she will be fighting Kakashi instead of Tsunade.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Santoryu (Mar 20, 2017)

Pre war arc Kakashi is enough

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Android (Mar 20, 2017)

Santoryu said:


> Pre war arc Kakashi is enough


Fawk no

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 20, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Wasn't he aiming for the head ? instead of the arm ? i don't think the summoning had anything to do with that .
> It's a fact that Kakashi after JJ Obito's fight was losing sight and he needed to be carried around on Gaara's sand to get a good shot at Madara's TSB .



I'm pretty sure Kamui interacting with the summoning ST barrier had something to do with it.

If you look at the first panel:


Kakashi and Minato were right under it, in fact he was closer to the Gedo and had a much bigger target than later on when he had worse sight and Gaara transported him to teleport Madara's shield.

Doesn't make sense that he would start aiming at the gigantic head in front of him and suddenly change the barrier to the arm.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Android (Mar 20, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> I'm pretty sure Kamui interacting with the summoning ST barrier had something to do with it.
> 
> If you look at the first panel:
> 
> ...


Good observation , nice .


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## Jad (Mar 20, 2017)

Nowadays it's difficult to debate Kakashi's superiority in almost everything ninja related against someone like Tsunade in the BD. His strategy, sharingan, ninjutsu, nimbleness, clone feinting, verses a linear one punch attacker with a crazy obessesion of destroying the environment. So I'm just going to say Kamui nets him the win without falter.

Note that I also believe Kakashi can beat Gai as well on almost equal occasions, maybe if a bit more. So I think Kakashi will gave an easier tine here.


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## LostSelf (Mar 20, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Yeah huge stable target but even against it he aimed to head but only able to shoot its upper arm
> So if he was miss that how he is gonna hit Tsunade w/o any problem from the start like that easily ?



I can't remember that instance, as much as i recall, Kakashi warped the entire thing but Obito brought it back. Maybe i am mistaken but that is what i recall.

And Kakashi is pretty accurate, though. He was able to warp proyectiles that are smaller than Tsunade with Naruto in the middle. I think he can snipe her. 



JiraiyaFlash said:


> This is agreeable but sill amaterasu and enton variation has far more succesfull and usefull feats.



Yeah, it has had more appearances because it's use way more often by two Uchihas while Kamui snipe is only used by Kakashi. But Kamui is something that not even truth seeker balls have stopped. I think that evens it out.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 20, 2017)

I think it's really poor that most people don't respect the skill level around, for the same reasons why I think Kakahsi can win, I do believe Itachi (without MS) gives Tsunade a much more difficult time than most people. In fact, I see him winning with genjutsu 8-9/10. But, I've been in threads where people have told me that Katsuyu will come and take over, at which point, I begin to wonder, would everyone automatically go for a boss summon to fight characters like Kakashi or Itachi?





Jad said:


> *I also believe Kakashi can beat Gai*





Jad said:


> *I also believe Kakashi can beat Gai*





Jad said:


> *I also believe Kakashi can beat Gai*


Wow, someone quick get to Jad's house and see if he wasn't replaced by Raikiri19.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 20, 2017)

I'd go with Tsunade, as regardless of the situation it's out-of-character for Kakashi to use Kamui unless he is facing a long-ranged opponent and has no way of hitting them otherwise. He also doesn't know that Tsunade is practically immortal with her SoHT, since he has no knowledge on it. But since Tsunade knows about his Kamui, she'd likely summon Katsuyu immediately since she has shown that it's in-character for her to summon her against something too powerful for her to deal with as was the case against Madara's Susanoo. So once Katsuyu is summoned, and uses Slug Great Division, Kakashi's LoS would be easily obscured by Katsuyu's clones all over the field as well as pressured by their sheer number. Not to mention Tsunade being able to boost Katsuyu's Tongue Tooth Sticky Acid to gargantuan proportions. Even if one wants to argue that Tsunade wouldn't summon Katsuyu, I'd still see her winning as since Kakashi doesn't know about her regenerative abilities so he'd probably do use his usual tactic and use a Lightning Release Shadow Clone to paralyze Tsunade, and then get behind her and ram a Raikiri through her chest. However, Kakashi is unaware that that wouldn't kill her and she could likely shrug that off since she was capable of moving despite having her spine penetrated and severed. Then she'd just punch or kick Kakashi when he's up close and kill him. So either way I'd argue Tsunade wins with mid-to-high difficulty imo.

Reactions: Like 1


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## GoldGournetChef (Mar 20, 2017)

Pre-war arc kakashi could mid-diff her in a good fight seeing as he could do the kirigakure+Speed blitz+Raikiri head slash to end her quickly


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## Lord Aizen (Mar 20, 2017)

Muah said:


> Im prepared for Kashitards to dislike my post for the next 7 months.



You brought part 1 stuff that no longer applies to kakashi like kakashi being scared. Kakashi fought the leader of akatsuki without hesitation. Part 1 is outdated Tsunade was afraid of kabuto and got bullied by him, she's not the same anymore just like kakashi.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Lord Aizen (Mar 20, 2017)

kakashi beats her quite easily. Clone feint raikiri that's all

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Veracity (Mar 21, 2017)

Kakashi isn't winning without Kamui. Let's all get that straight as soon as possible.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 21, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Kakashi isn't winning without Kamui. Let's all get that straight as soon as possible.


Lol, okay.

RKB + Decapitation beg to differ.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 21, 2017)

GoldGournetChef said:


> Pre-war arc kakashi could mid-diff her in a good fight seeing as he could do the kirigakure+Speed blitz+Raikiri head slash to end her quickly


Then why Pre-war arc Kakashi didnt do any of those things to Pain, Kakuzu and %30 Itachi clone ?


Lord Aizen said:


> Clone feint raikiri that's all


When Raikiri become a more threatfull thing than multiple susano swords stabs ?! 

If Kakashi try to land Raikiri she can take it and then she can mixed his brain with one touch and end of his story. I think Kakashi needs to keep his distance. 

Do you guys remember when Kakashi thought he killed Kakuzu with raikiri but then Kakuzu send him to air with one kick ? 

Same scenario byakugo amped CES kick probably splits kakashi in a half ! .

So nope  


Santoryu said:


> Pre war arc Kakashi is enough


Pre Warc Arc Kakashi 1 vs 1 features

Schooled by Zabuza and saved by his own pupils
Freaked out by Orochimaru
Needed Naruto's asistance against %30 Clone Itachi and Naruto needed Sakura's asistance against finger genjutsu  
Use kamui twice for deidara and get hospital rest for weeks
Stalemate with Hidan
owned by Kakuzu twice
Die on Pain cuz of chakra draining.

on the other hand Tsunade easily keep up with Raikage, pressure Madara and showed best performance in Gokage with Ônoki. And saved all other kages when she splitted in a half. 

So nope bro !! Bias confirmed.


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## Lord Aizen (Mar 21, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Then why Pre-war arc Kakashi didnt do any of those things to Pain, Kakuzu and %30 Itachi clone ?
> 
> When Raikiri become a more threatfull thing than multiple susano swords stabs ?!
> 
> ...



Raikiri doesn't have to be stronger than susanoo blades. all it needs to do it take her head off. Instead of a stab kakashi slices and that's that.

remember when kakashi tried taking asuras head off and missed this time he's not missing

Reactions: Winner 1


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## UltimaDude (Mar 21, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Do you guys remember when Kakashi thought he killed Kakuzu with raikiri but then Kakuzu send him to air with one kick ?


Yeah, no. That's completely different. Do you not recall Kakazu having multiple hearts? Context, use it

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 21, 2017)

UltimaDude said:


> Yeah, no. That's completely different. Do you not recall Kakazu having multiple hearts? Context, use it


Still ıf kakashi didnt know what byakugo is and he is try to kill her with raikiri and when Kakashi close enough she can kick him off.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 21, 2017)

Lord Aizen said:


> all it needs to do it take her head off.


Which was never happened in manga.. 


Lord Aizen said:


> remember when kakashi tried taking asuras head off and missed this time he's not missing


Asura ? I guess you're talking about Gedo Mazo..

Gedo Mazo almost big as bijuu and kakashi was to close to him. And it was stable .. So gedo mazo like big freaking "Hit Me" sign for Kakashi.. 

But Tsunade and any mobile shinobi aint. Like Kakuzu, Like %30 Clone Itachi like blind ms sasuke.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 21, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Still ıf kakashi didnt know what byakugo is and he is try to kill her with raikiri and when Kakashi close enough she can kick him off.


She can't if she's paralyzed by a RKB.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 21, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Lol, okay.
> 
> RKB + Decapitation beg to differ.



 Killer Bee muscled through paralysis nigh instantaneously, muscling through Kakashi's paralysis isn't problematic at all especially with Byakugou's assistance. Not even sure how it'd be as simple as RKB + Raikiri GG.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Disagree 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 21, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Killer Bee muscled through paralysis nigh instantaneously, muscling through Kakashi's paralysis isn't problematic at all especially with Byakugou's assistance. Not even sure how it'd be as simple as RKB + Raikiri GG.



Killer Bee still went down for a few moments, and that was a mere chidori Paralysis, the one that Sasuke applied to himself against Deidara and was fine afterwards. A Raiton clone puts half the users chakra(or less if the KB has used techniques), into the electric shock. That would be about 8 Raikiri's worth to give you an idea.

I don't see how Byakugou would help against Paralysis.The Paralysis comes from the electricity current running through your cells and overriding your body's neuron signals. If anything it would heal any damage being done by the extreme current running though her body but won't stop the effect.

That's without mentioning the clone is skilled enough to damage her some before getting destroyed, or could try a double KO move ala Obito vs Kakashi, meaning she could get wounded and paralyzed by the clone, then finished off by the real Kakashi.

A combo like this is pretty likely considering the ones who have been fooled by this very same technique(Pain, Itachi) difference being, Tsunade needs CQC to deal with it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Santoryu (Mar 21, 2017)

destroy Kakuzu's Lightning Mask (it wasn't a nigh instaneous retreat either in the context of a Kakashi vs Tsunade matchup)

Killer Bee was also able to match Sasuke's ration-strike, indicating a high level of proficiency:destroy Kakuzu's Lightning Mask  Certainly more impressive than Tsunade's ration feats. And factor in his higher durability.

If Tsunade can take shrug off a ration kage bunshin (that instantly electrocutes the entire body upon contact) similarly  to Bee who took the stream off
Chidori (she can't), Kakashi would *still have enough time to capitalise on it.*

Reactions: Winner 1


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 21, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Killer Bee still went down for a few moments, and that was a mere chidori Paralysis, the one that Sasuke applied to himself against Deidara and was fine afterwards. A Raiton clone puts half the users chakra(or less if the KB has used techniques), into the electric shock. That would be about 8 Raikiri's worth to give you an idea.



 That's a misconception. The jutsu combines both Raiton with Kage Bunshin meaning that half of Kakashi's chakra is allocated towards the physical clone and the residual chakra is used for Raiton. Even then, Ashura Path is more prone to ration currents yet even he managed to survive numerous attacks after that supposed Raiton Bunshin electrocution, so I'm not inclined to believe that it would be enough to cripple Tsunade at all.



> I don't see how Byakugou would help against Paralysis.The Paralysis comes from the electricity current running through your cells and overriding your body's neuron signals. If anything it would heal any damage being done by the extreme current running though her body but won't stop the effect.



Or the body's neurons are returned to its normal state.



> That's without mentioning the clone is skilled enough to damage her some before getting destroyed, or could try a double KO move ala Obito vs Kakashi, meaning she could get wounded and paralyzed by the clone, then finished off by the real Kakashi.
> 
> A combo like this is pretty likely considering the ones who have been fooled by this very same technique(Pain, Itachi) difference being, Tsunade needs CQC to deal with it.



 No, none of what Kakashi's bunshin can do can inflict damage drastic enough to override Byakugou's regeneration.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 21, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> That's a misconception. The jutsu combines both Raiton with Kage Bunshin meaning that half of Kakashi's chakra is allocated towards the physical clone and the residual chakra is used for Raiton. Even then, Ashura Path is more prone to ration currents yet even he managed to survive numerous attacks after that supposed Raiton Bunshin electrocution, so I'm not inclined to believe that it would be enough to cripple Tsunade at all.



The chakra used for Raiton comes from the chakra allocated to the KB. If the KB has not used any chakra on jutsus, then it all goes to the Raiton when destroyed. Even Kakashi mentions that over half his chakra is gone after using it, which makes sense since he used 1 raikiri before doing the KB which took half his chakra, used some of it for another Raikiri which Asura dodged, then used up the remainder on the Raiton Paralyzes. 

Asura path has a mechanized body, not circuits and computer parts, so if anything his body was more suited to tank it.



> Or the body's neurons are returned to its normal state.



So Byakugo magically dispels/absorbs the Raiton chakra?



> No, none of what Kakashi's bunshin can do can inflict damage drastic enough to override Byakugou's regeneration.



Kakashi's bunshin can do everything that the real one can except Kamui so.. 

With his war arc stamina allowing him to perform 8 Raikiri, and multiple human body/head sized Kamui as well as some other ninjutsu, constantly attacking her is not an issue.

Tsunade needs Byakugo  and Katsuyu right away to have a chance here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Veracity (Mar 21, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Lol, okay.
> 
> RKB + Decapitation beg to differ.


That isn't how the battle goes down though. Tsuande isn't being downed by that lol

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Veracity (Mar 21, 2017)

If we're talking about science, didn't Tsuande continue to move after having her spinal cord severed? Do you think Raiton Bunshin are more effective than a severed spinal cord?

Reactions: Like 3


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## Skywalker (Mar 21, 2017)

I'd give it to Kakashi more times then not, but Tsunade can always get a lucky hit in.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 22, 2017)

Veracity said:


> If we're talking about science, didn't Tsuande continue to move after having her spinal cord severed? Do you think Raiton Bunshin are more effective than a severed spinal cord?



Again, Tsunade would regenerate any damage done by the Raiton KB's current after it has taken effect on her, but that doesn't mean it nullifies the paralysis effects of getting electrocuted. 

Since when is regeneration=nullifying? If Tsunade was attacked with a great fireball would she regenerate and somehow magically nullify/absorb/negate the heat from said attack?


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## Gohara (Mar 22, 2017)

Kakashi wins with around high difficulty at most in my opinion.  That's assuming that Kakashi became more powerful between The Kage Summit Arc and The 4th Great Ninja World War Arc, though.  Although, Kakashi putting up a good match up against Rinnegan Obito is also better portrayal than anything that Tsunade has done so far.  Tsunade is more powerful than the average Kage, though.


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## Veracity (Mar 22, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Again, Tsunade would regenerate any damage done by the Raiton KB's current after it has taken effect on her, but that doesn't mean it nullifies the paralysis effects of getting electrocuted.
> 
> Since when is regeneration=nullifying? If Tsunade was attacked with a great fireball would she regenerate and somehow magically nullify/absorb/negate the heat from said attack?



That didn't counter anything I said. Again, do you think Raiton Bunshin are more effective at paralyzing an opponent in comparison to a severed spinal cord? Realize that her spinal cord wasn't just severed and regenerated( which is crazy cause some nerve cells don't regenerate) but the swords were stuck there meaning Byakago couldn't kick in directly on the spinal cord _until_ the swords were out.

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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 22, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> but that doesn't mean it nullifies the paralysis effects of getting electrocuted.


Yes she is .. She has already raiton type chakra and she has her own "neuron system paralysis" jutsu (not just side effect like it) .. Raiton Bunshin even didnt able to stomp a machine.. Which is more easy to by-pass due to electricity short-circuit... But it didnt that thing was good enough to react a raikiri. Yes Asura is a dead body maybe he sliped with that. 

But as the best medic and maybe one the best chakra controller in the series Tsunade can by-pass that thing probably. Specially when she has already raiton chakra. (Look what happened Sasuke Vs Raikage ).




Veracity said:


> do you think Raiton Bunshin are more effective at paralyzing an opponent in comparison to a severed spinal cord?


Great explanation.


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## GoldGournetChef (Mar 22, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Then why Pre-war arc Kakashi didnt do any of those things to Pain, Kakuzu and %30 Itachi clone
> 
> So nope bro !! Bias confirmed.


The pre-war arc kakashi am talking about is the kage-summit kakashi that one could mid-diff tsunade
He didn't do this to pain because of plot your saw how the kirigakure tech was affecting obito and madara on the juubi kakazu had fuuton to blow the mist away and he did it against itachi


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 22, 2017)

GoldGournetChef said:


> kage-summit kakashi


Which feats kage summit Kakashi has ? More than Pain Arc and Wind Arc ? 


GoldGournetChef said:


> kakazu had fuuton


He didnt know that at the start ?


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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 22, 2017)

Veracity said:


> That didn't counter anything I said. Again, do you think Raiton Bunshin are more effective at paralyzing an opponent in comparison to a severed spinal cord? Realize that her spinal cord wasn't just severed and regenerated( which is crazy cause some nerve cells don't regenerate) but the swords were stuck there meaning Byakago couldn't kick in directly on the spinal cord _until_ the swords were out.



Sure or it could be simply Kishi worrying more about the plot than every little detail, as most mangakas do.

Iruka also survived a giant Shuriken to the spine and a Kunai to the head and was fine afterwards. In fact, those are more impressive regeneration feats than what Tsunade ever showed.

Horrible comparison you have made her considering than electrocution paralysis can still happen without damaging a simple cell, is not the same type of damage.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> Yes she is .. She has already raiton type chakra and she has her own "neuron system paralysis" jutsu (not just side effect like it) .. Raiton Bunshin even didnt able to stomp a machine.. Which is more easy to by-pass due to electricity short-circuit... But it didnt that thing was good enough to react a raikiri. Yes Asura is a dead body maybe he sliped with that.



It was a mechanical cyborg, I wouldn't expect it to get damaged as much as organic tissue.



> But as the best medic and maybe one the best chakra controller in the series Tsunade can by-pass that thing probably. Specially when she has already raiton chakra. (Look what happened Sasuke Vs Raikage ).



When has she ever showed raiton chakra feats?

Killer Bee has raiton and still took some seconds to recover, against a Chidori that was potentially 8 times weaker than a full power raiton clone.


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## Android (Mar 22, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Iruka also survived a giant Shuriken to the spine and a Kunai to the head and was fine afterwards. In fact, those are more impressive regeneration feats than what Tsunade ever showed.


Sig worth , with all due respect .

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 22, 2017)

Veracity said:


> That isn't how the battle goes down though. Tsuande isn't being downed by that lol


How is she going to defend against it?


UchihaX28 said:


> Killer Bee muscled through paralysis nigh instantaneously, muscling through Kakashi's paralysis isn't problematic at all especially with Byakugou's assistance. Not even sure how it'd be as simple as RKB + Raikiri GG.


Killer Bee had the assistance of Gyuuki, on top of his insane durability.

Tsunade is much slower (Tier 3.5) in speed, that's in the same ranking as Wind-Arc Naruto and Hidan, while you could allow some instances where Tsunade could push beyond this limit for a short instance but it's not going to be enough against Kakashi. Kakashi is rated at a full tier ahead of her and he has the sharingan on top of it. He was able to execute this feat against Nagato and similar feats against a faster shinobi like Itachi, I don't see how she circumvents this. I see her losing out to a clone feint w/a follow up headshot raikiri.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 22, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> more impressive regeneration


Regen ? You can say durability feat but regen ? 

Plus those weapons are deadly as their users. Who was the thrower of those things ?

Kunai on the hand looks like only tip of it stabbed.. And Remeber that jacket of konoha shinobies fine enough to tank Kakuzu's fuuton.. SO there is not better durability feat.. And there is no any regen feat at all  Nice try .


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Chidori that was potentially 8 times weaker than a full power raiton clone.


due to what statement ?


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## Veracity (Mar 22, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Sure or it could be simply Kishi worrying more about the plot than every little detail, as most mangakas do.
> 
> Iruka also survived a giant Shuriken to the spine and a Kunai to the head and was fine afterwards. In fact, those are more impressive regeneration feats than what Tsunade ever showed.
> 
> Horrible comparison you have made her considering than electrocution paralysis can still happen without damaging a simple cell, is not the same type of damage.


I don't think I need to point out why those examples are different to be honest. 

I also doesn't see why Raiton Bunshin interfering with ones nervous system is going to have a superior paralysis effect then those nerve cells literally being destroyed.


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## GoldGournetChef (Mar 22, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Which feats kage summit Kakashi has ? More than Pain Arc and Wind Arc ?
> 
> He didnt know that at the start ?


Kage summit arc kakashi is the same as pain arc kakashi
Considering he killed kakazu first and kakuzu started bringing out jutsu after jutsu  in the fight soo..


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 22, 2017)

GoldGournetChef said:


> he killed kakazu first


not in a combat ? 


GoldGournetChef said:


> kakuzu started bringing out jutsu after jutsu in the fight soo..


And that makes things even worse for you


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## GoldGournetChef (Mar 22, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> not in a combat ?
> 
> And that makes things even worse for you


What how didn't kill kakuzu in combat
Second how is that worse for me


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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 22, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Regen ? You can say durability feat but regen ?
> 
> Plus those weapons are deadly as their users. Who was the thrower of those things ?



It doesn't matter who threw then, but the damage that was caused.




> Kunai on the hand looks like only tip of it stabbed.. And Remeber that jacket of konoha shinobies fine enough to tank Kakuzu's fuuton.. SO there is not better durability feat.. And there is no any regen feat at all  Nice try .



The "tip" of those weapons are far in enough to be deadly to anyone.

Lol guess you couldn't see the joke in Iruka's regen feats.



> due to what statement ?



KB splits the users chakra evenly and war arc feats put Kakashi being able to use Raikiri 8 times plus multiple kamuis and doton wall, this would put half his chakra being able to perform around 8 raikiris.

If the clone has not used any other jutsu and gets destroyed by Tsunade all the remaining amount of chakra would be discharged and far surpass the power of a single Raikiri. 



Veracity said:


> I don't think I need to point out why those examples are different to be honest.



Go ahead please.



> I also doesn't see why Raiton Bunshin interfering with ones nervous system is going to have a superior paralysis effect then those nerve cells literally being destroyed.



The fact that you consider it the same type of Paralysis is where your argument fails. Tsunade can't "heal" from Paralysis caused by electricity. She can choose to regen if she wants but the electricity will still be in her body, she doesn't absorb it.

Kishi had Iruka tank a shurikens to the spine and back of his head, so I am not surprised he didn't give any thought to Tsunade being able to walk, unless you have a reasonable explanation, please go right ahead.

She will be incapacitated at least as long as Killer B if not longer due to Raiton KB having much more chakra than a measly chidori.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 22, 2017)

GoldGournetChef said:


> What how didn't kill kakuzu in combat


Did he get in a battle with kakuzu and overcome his arsenal and then delivers a death blow ?!


Crimson Flam3s said:


> It doesn't matter who threw then


Why and How ?



Crimson Flam3s said:


> The "tip" of those weapons are far in enough to be deadly to anyone.


Not shinobies , even normal humans like us (whom are so inferior to shinobies) able to survive from blade stabs.




Crimson Flam3s said:


> Lol guess you couldn't see the joke in Iruka's regen feats.


Oh that was a ıronic word play ha  Sorry  Actually its funny .. but still irrelevant.


Crimson Flam3s said:


> KB splits the users chakra evenly and war arc feats put Kakashi being able to use Raikiri 8 times plus multiple kamuis and doton wall, this would put half his chakra being able to perform around 8 raikiris.


So  This is your own implication without any development feature about Kakashi ? .

A Raiton Bunshin dense and powerfull as 8 Raikiri.. SO Asura path tanked 9 raikiri + 2 Giant Fist ?!   Then kakashi needs to make up 12 raikiri for Tsunade  

Cuz, Naurto's mini rasengan was enough to take down that asura, but that rasengan aint powertfull enough to break susano.. But Tsunade's punches are and she has better resistance than Susano ribcage ?!   

So this is even worse for your case about Kakashi's victory with raiton efficiecny ?!..


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## Veracity (Mar 22, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Go ahead please.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Because the shiruken was barely pierced into his back, we don't know if it was placed within in area that paralyzes the body, and Iruka was seated beside a tree for the majority of the battle barely able to move?

What you fail to understand is that Byakago can't heal when the Sussano swords are still within her body. Taking that into consideration , Tsuande was still able to move to combat Sussano clones without slowed reflexes or movement. You still have yet to explain why Raiton Bunshin paralyzes the opponent greater than a completely severed spinal cord. Tsuande has that feat whether or not you wish to accept such and it ranslates to a battle scenario unlike the mess Iruka accomplished.

Tsuande still has feats of moving while missing a lower body.. still not convinced that Raiton Bunshin will be effective and Iruka being unable to fight after having a shiruken cut inches into his body isn't fantastic proof either.

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## Ayala (Mar 22, 2017)

Asura could move and attack while completely wrecked, he's a robot



And still got paralyzed by the clone. Tsunade isn't anymore invulnerable than the six bodies of pain. Tsunade was shocked and paralyzed when the blade ran through her guts, and took a while to regain control and counterattack. 

Not to mention an S level jutsu like Raikiri can chop her to pieces no diff, just like he did to Zabuza. Kabuto's chakra scalpels cut Itachi in two, while Raikiri is a superior jutsu. 

Kakashi can stay in the defensive and just choose to block her hits and he would just melt her hands each time they connect.


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## GoldGournetChef (Mar 23, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Did he get in a battle with kakuzu and overcome his arsenal and then delivers a death blowDDDD


No
He taught he could make easy work on kakuzu but that was not the case

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mithos (Mar 23, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> Asura could move and attack while completely wrecked, he's a robot
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The scan you posted works against you. Asura could barely move -- all it could really do was fire a projectile as he laid on the ground. Tsunade, on the other hand, was able to take a Susano'o clone by surprise and attack it before it could turn around, as well as surprise Madara and attack him with his own Susano'o sword. Those are much more dexterous movements. Tsunade is going to at least be capable of reacting/acting after being zapped enough to avoid a head shot or being sliced in half, which are the only two effective means of attack against her from Raikiri, really. Then, we have to take into account Katsuyu: if she's on the field, she can shield Tsunade, throw herself at Kakashi, or stop him from attacking by spitting acid. Between Tsunade's resilience, regeneration, evasion, and Katsuyu's assistance, it's very unlikely that a RKB is going to give him the opening he needs to defeat her with Raikiri.

Kakashi absolutely cannot block her hits. If he tries to parry her with Raikiri, he might destroy her hand but he's still going to take the brunt of her CES, which will leave him in worse condition than it will leave Tsunade in. On top of that, she can regenerate while he cannot -- he'll be on the losing end of that trade for sure.

Kakashi cannot fight Tsunade in close combat.

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## LostSelf (Mar 23, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> Kakashi can stay in the defensive and just choose to block her hits and he would just melt her hands each time they connect.



If by evasion we go, i do agree Kakashi can evade through her attacks no problem. 

But blocking is the worst thing he could do here. He might just better stand there and let her one-shot him.


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## Ayala (Mar 23, 2017)

Mithos said:


> The scan you posted works against you. Asura could barely move -- all it could really do was fire a projectile as he laid on the ground. Tsunade, on the other hand, was able to take a Susano'o clone by surprise and attack it before it could turn around, as well as surprise Madara and attack him with his own Susano'o sword. Those are much more dexterous movements. Tsunade is going to at least be capable of reacting/acting after being zapped enough to avoid a head shot or being sliced in half, which are the only two effective means of attack against her from Raikiri, really. Then, we have to take into account Katsuyu: if she's on the field, she can shield Tsunade, throw herself at Kakashi, or stop him from attacking by spitting acid. Between Tsunade's resilience, regeneration, evasion, and Katsuyu's assistance, it's very unlikely that a RKB is going to give him the opening he needs to defeat her with Raikiri.
> 
> Kakashi absolutely cannot block her hits. If he tries to parry her with Raikiri, he might destroy her hand but he's still going to take the brunt of her CES, which will leave him in worse condition than it will leave Tsunade in. On top of that, she can regenerate while he cannot -- he'll be on the losing end of that trade for sure.
> 
> Kakashi cannot fight Tsunade in close combat.



The point is the 6 bodies of Pain are dead bodies to begin with, and they still suffered the numbing effect. Tsunade is still effected, she took a while to regain composure and attack Madara back. If a dead body can't shrug off the bunshin effects, i expect anyone to be numbed at least for a moment.

Raikiri or Raikiri kunai would just slice through her hand, no character without higher resilience can punch Raikiri like that, your hands get outright melted/sliced. Plus, he can strike her hand to the side without having to block it, and the result will be the same. Kakashi easily disarmed Zabuza and impaled him in a single while charging, while the later had a legendary sword (and was a master in wielding it)in his possession. @LostSelf


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## Mithos (Mar 23, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> The point is the 6 bodies of Pain are dead bodies to begin with, and they still suffered the numbing effect. Tsunade is still effected, she took a while to regain composure and attack Madara back. If a dead body can't shrug off the bunshin effects, i expect anyone to be numbed at least for a moment.
> 
> Raikiri or Raikiri kunai would just slice through her hand, no character without higher resilience can punch Raikiri like that, your hands get outright melted/sliced. Plus, he can strike her hand to the side without having to block it, and the result will be the same. Kakashi easily disarmed Zabuza and impaled him in a single while charging, while the later had a legendary sword (and was a master in wielding it)in his possession. @LostSelf



But she didn't take a while to attack, though. She attacked right away after being stabbed by Susano'o, and she fell to her knees _after_ smashing the Susano'o down. That suggests she would be able to either counter-attack or evade after being zapped. As long as she can smash the ground, dodge enough to avoid a head shot, or summon Katsuyu, Kakashi can't take her out.

And she was only on her knees because of the amount of damage she suffered from having multiple ruptured organs and a severed spine; RKB wouldn't inflict nearly as much pain or damage, so Tsunade would recover much faster, if she even needs a moment to recover at all. She didn't need one when she got stabbed by Madara and then sent flying by Magatama, after all. She was able to immediately act and kick Madara out of Mabui's light-speed teleportation that was supposed to tear her apart. The idea that she would be left helpless from being zapped by a RKB after all her feats of counter-attacking from _much worse_ is dubious at best. 

The problem is that Raikiri is not going to erase the force of the blow, so Kakashi's arm would also suffer damage. Then there's another problem: Kakashi is not going to be able to intercept her blows with Raikiri or Raikiri-kunai to begin with. He's never done such a thing, and Tsunade is more skilled in CQC than he is. If he could do such a thing, why not do it against Kakuzu? Against Hidan? Against Zabuza? And Tsunade is more skilled than all of them.

Tsunade is (a) more skilled than Zabuza, (b) attacks faster than he can with his sword, and (c) dodging her and impaling her chest with Raikiri is an invitation for Kakashi to take a haymaker to the face and die. 

He's not strong enough to physically parry her blows, since even a glancing blow would cripple him. And again, trying to parry the blows of someone who is (a) more skilled in taijutsu and (b) can end his life in a single hit is not a good idea. Say he does parry, what then? He then has to parry the next one, or evade a knee. Any contact at all would spell defeat, even death. 

Kakashi cannot hang with Tsunade in CQC, and he's smart enough to not attempt it.

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## Ayala (Mar 23, 2017)

Mithos said:


> But she didn't take a while to attack, though. She attacked right away after being stabbed by Susano'o, and she fell to her knees _after_ smashing the Susano'o down. That suggests she would be able to either counter-attack or evade after being zapped. As long as she can smash the ground, dodge enough to avoid a head shot, or summon Katsuyu, Kakashi can't take her out.
> 
> And she was only on her knees because of the amount of damage she suffered from having multiple ruptured organs and a severed spine; RKB wouldn't inflict nearly as much pain or damage, so Tsunade would recover much faster, if she even needs a moment to recover at all. She didn't need one when she got stabbed by Madara and then sent flying by Magatama, after all. She was able to immediately act and kick Madara out of Mabui's light-speed teleportation that was supposed to tear her apart. The idea that she would be left helpless from being zapped by a RKB after all her feats of counter-attacking from _much worse_ is dubious at best.
> 
> ...



She was left shocked and hung on Madara's blade for a while, and after some moments she moved. 

The "he never has done so in the manga" is not an argument for the battledome imo. We take feats and what we know the characters are capable of, and simulate a scenario.

 We know Kakashi can even do two Raikiri at a time, which is very useful, yet he doesn't use it. We know Kakashi can use kunai Raikiri, yet he didn't use it against Hidan. We know Kakashi has better sense of smell than Kiba, yet he didn't attempt it to track Zabuza in the mist, and couldn't smell Deidara who was lying in the ground couple metters from him. We know Kakashi can completely hide his presence and blindside, yet he didn't do that when Kakuzu thought he was dead, or in any other combat situation. We know Kakashi always uses clones, yet he didn't do so while charging Pain and Kakuzu. We know Kakashi has perfected his sharingan (which allows one to completely read movements before they happen and act accordingly), yet he didn't read Deva's simple stab, and didn't read Asura's dodge to his Raikiri, which is what he uses sharingan in the first place. And so much more. 

His rival happens to be the best taijutsu user of Konoha, and his taijutsu skills was praised too, parrying her blows can be easily done, with Raikiri, he just has to touch the side of her arm before it connects, and it falls off. Once a similar opening is made, it goes downhill for Tsunade.


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## Arles Celes (Mar 23, 2017)

Depends if Tsunade can potentially survive Kamui decapitation.

Kakashi unlike Madara lacks Susanoo to protect him from Tsunade's one hit KO punches.

And with Byakugou killing Tsunade even with Raikiri would be useless and leave him open to a lethal counter strike.

Plus Katsuyu is likely resistant even to Kamui as it would teleport away only a part of her.

Kakashi's lower chakra levels when compared to Tsunade's also do not allow for a battle of nutrition.

Either he can kill her by setting a strategy with Kamui decapitation or he loses.


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## Veracity (Mar 23, 2017)

Kakashi parrying Tsuande's blows lol? What? Kakashi has no business stepping in CQC with Tsuande at all. If his CQC skill was so phenomenal, he would have disarmed and bisected Hidan the moment he entered his striking range, or he would have taken a fat dump on Deva Pain( who Base Naruto can go toe to toe with).  His best bet is Bunshin feinting Tsuande to land a clean ass Kamui warp. There is no other way.


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## UltimaDude (Mar 23, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Kakashi parrying Tsuande's blows lol? What? Kakashi has no business stepping in CQC with Tsuande at all. If his CQC skill was so phenomenal, he would have disarmed and bisected Hidan the moment he entered his striking range, or he would have taken a fat dump on Deva Pain( who Base Naruto can go toe to toe with). His best bet is Bunshin feinting Tsuande to land a clean ass Kamui warp. There is no other way.


Too bad Tsunade isn't well adept in CQC. Also, how does parrying Tsunade's blows equal to disarming/immobilizing people that are better at CQC than Tsunade?

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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 23, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Killer Bee had the assistance of Gyuuki, on top of his insane durability.


 Gyuki didn't help Killer B overpower Sasuke's Chidori and evade Jugo's attack from behind immediately after. You're correct that Killer B has superior durability though, but Tsunade has shown above average durability as well. However, this still doesn't change the fact that Tsunade was able to move and fight effectively despite having her spine pierced so the notion that her being electrocuted will deal more damage than a penetrated spinal cord is rendered mute.



> Tsunade is much slower (Tier 3.5) in speed, that's in the same ranking as Wind-Arc Naruto and Hidan, while you could allow some instances where Tsunade could push beyond this limit for a short instance but it's not going to be enough against Kakashi. Kakashi is rated at a full tier ahead of her and he has the sharingan on top of it. He was able to execute this feat against Nagato and similar feats against a faster shinobi like Itachi, I don't see how she circumvents this. I see her losing out to a clone feint w/a follow up headshot raikiri.


 Hidan also has a 3.5 in speed, on top of having a 4.5 in taijutsu, yet Hidan could still pressure Kakashi pretty well. Tsunade has a 3.5 in speed, on top of a 5 in taijutsu, so logically she'd do even better rendering the whole argument about how he can easily dodge and evade all of her blows obsolete. Not to mention the Third Databook is outdated anyway, and no longer applies to War Arc Tsunade who has even better speed features than anything Hidan has demonstrated anyway.

Kakashi is not taking down Tsunade with a Lightning Release Shadow Clone followed by a Raikiri, she will easily overpower being electrocuted and turn around and one-shot Kakashi as he gets close and impales her. Since I believe they're both in-character, and Kakashi isn't aware she has pseudo-immortality (no knowledge on SoHT) he'd likely go for her chest instead of her head anyway since he has consistently done that pretty much every time he's used Raikiri anyway. If Kakashi wants to win he'll have to attack from afar, engaging with Tsuande at short-range will end in Kakashi's death very quickly. He is smart enough to know that getting up close and personal with her is a foolish maneuver.

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## Veracity (Mar 23, 2017)

UltimaDude said:


> Too bad Tsunade isn't well adept in CQC. Also, how does parrying Tsunade's blows equal to disarming/immobilizing people that are better at CQC than Tsunade?



So her 5 in taijustu is not even worth mentioning? Or the fact that she's the taijustu specialist of the legendary Sannin? 

Because Tsuande is far stronger than them. Enough that she could kill them with her god damn finger. You aren't parrying a blow from someone that much stronger than you and Kakashi isn't as skilled as Tsuande in CQC anyway.


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## Kai (Mar 23, 2017)

The only way Kakashi loses this is if this whole fight is portrayed without Kamui being mysteriously mentioned or used, something that has happened in many anime adaptations.

But we know Kamui is there, and we know how fast Kakashi's feats are with it close range (Mazo arm). Tsunade doesn't have the speed nor resources to upset Kamui. She's a terrible match choice for space-time techniques.

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## LostSelf (Mar 23, 2017)

@Kai posted again?

Today is a special day in NF?? O:! So good to see that.


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## Bonly (Mar 23, 2017)

Kai said:


> But we know Kamui is there, and we know how fast Kakashi's feats are with it close range (Mazo arm). Tsunade doesn't have the speed *nor resources to upset Kamui.* She's a terrible match choice for space-time techniques.



So you don't think Katsuyu and her clones which was enough to spread throughout Konoha can't mess with Kakashi's uses of Kamui?

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## UchihaX28 (Mar 23, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Killer Bee had the assistance of Gyuuki, on top of his insane durability.



 Bee wasn't even using the Hachibi's durability to resist the attack. An example of when he did was when his hand expanded to block Itachi's Katon.



> Tsunade is much slower (Tier 3.5) in speed, that's in the same ranking as Wind-Arc Naruto and Hidan, while you could allow some instances where Tsunade could push beyond this limit for a short instance but it's not going to be enough against Kakashi. Kakashi is rated at a full tier ahead of her and he has the sharingan on top of it. He was able to execute this feat against Nagato and similar feats against a faster shinobi like Itachi, I don't see how she circumvents this. I see her losing out to a clone feint w/a follow up headshot raikiri.



 Not only are those Databook entries outdated, but she has speed features that vastly exceed anything these two have done in combat, including her ability to swoop in and parry Madara's Katon before Mei could even cast a jutsu or slamming a Susano'o clone who couldn't even respond to her attack despite yelling a battle-cry. Hidan nor Wind-Arc Naruto have speed features that are remotely comparable to what Tsunade did.

 I agree, Kakashi is faster, but one thing you have clearly have forgotten to consider is how Kakashi makes use of his bunshin by taking advantage of his location. His most popular strategy is to hide under-ground and outwit his opponent with a clone. Unfortunately, not only does Tsunade have knowledge of it, but she also has physical strength that can plunge and expose any of Kakashi's clones (see Kakashi vs. Naruto and Sakura for reference). If his bunshin feints were as extraordinary as you say they are, we would not have witnessed her pupil expose Kakashi's bunshin strategy with a single maneuver, nor would we have witnessed Kakashi fail against Zabuza multiple times. If Kakashi cannot use the location to his advantage, then his bunshin feints aren't going to do him any good and fortunately, Tsunade eliminates his strength by ravaging the entire battle-field.

 Raiton clone wouldn't happen, but if it does, then a shock to the nervous system is something that can easily be dealt. She managed to swat away Madara before recuperating from damage done to her internal organs and continued to battle with a severed spinal cord. A simple jolt isn't impeding Tsunade in any sort of way.

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## Jad (Mar 24, 2017)

If Kakashi can stand up to Gai's speed and Taijutsu, his far and wide more than capable to deal with Tsunade's. He just needs to get past her regen. Luckiky for this smart-ass he has Raiton which will cut through her like butter. His Raiton kunai cleaved through massive chunks of multiple boulders that SPLIT apart, not just leave Kunai sized holes.

Imagine Kunai Raiton Taijutsu.


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## LostSelf (Mar 24, 2017)

Jad said:


> If Kakashi can stand up to Gai's speed and Taijutsu, his far and wide more than capable to deal with Tsunade's. He just needs to get past her regen. Luckiky for this smart-ass he has Raiton which will cut through her like butter. His Raiton kunai cleaved through massive chunks of multiple boulders that SPLIT apart, not just leave Kunai sized holes.
> 
> Imagine Kunai Raiton Taijutsu.



Actually this is a good possibility, especially with knowledge if he knows Tsunade can heal and can kill with one shot. Cutting limbs with Sharingan Precog. sounds like a plausible idea.

Even though using it or not, Tsunade going CQC is just getting closer to the almighty Kamui GG.


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## Jad (Mar 24, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Actually this is a good possibility, especially with knowledge if he knows Tsunade can heal and can kill with one shot. Cutting limbs with Sharingan Precog. sounds like a plausible idea.
> 
> Even though using it or not, Tsunade going CQC is just getting closer to the almighty Kamui GG.


Don't you mean the Queen of Solo Kamui?

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## FlamingRain (Mar 24, 2017)

If Tsunade can stand up to Madara's speed and Taijutsu she can keep up with Kakashi's easily.

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## LostSelf (Mar 24, 2017)

Tsunade stood to Madara's speed and Taijutsu when?

The only time she fought Madara (Susano'os), she was collapsing and coughing blood.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 24, 2017)

After she broke ribcage Susano'o and blew open a hole in Madara.

If she couldn't stand up to Madara's speed and Taijutsu he would have simply sucked her dry with Preta path or at least injured her, which we know he didn't before she landed that initial hit because Madara didn't know about Sozo Saisei until later. Madara wouldn't have been cornered into resorting to the wood doppelganger to escape, and he wouldn't have used it if he weren't, as can be seen by him not being able to look Tsunade in the eyes when she pointed it out.


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## LostSelf (Mar 24, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> After she broke ribcage Susano'o and blew open a hole in Madara.
> 
> If she couldn't stand up to Madara's speed and Taijutsu he would have simply sucked her dry with Preta path or at least injured her, which we know he didn't before she landed that initial hit because Madara didn't know about Sozo Saisei until later. Madara wouldn't have been cornered into resorting to the wood doppelganger to escape, and he wouldn't have used it if he weren't, as can be seen by him not being able to look Tsunade in the eyes when she pointed it out.



Thing is, Tsunade didn't do this alone and not only Madara, she was the first one to say Madar was forced to use a clone due to their combined effort. Not Tsunade alone.

Madara is the man who was reacting to V1 Ei's surprise assault from less than an inch to the face, reacting to 7G Gai's speed and hitting him, considering he gave Gai a beating and reacting to BM Naruto's enraged assault.

Tsunade's speed should be child's play for this man. As he stated.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 24, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Gyuki didn't help Killer B overpower Sasuke's Chidori and evade Jugo's attack from behind immediately after. You're correct that Killer B has superior durability though, but Tsunade has shown above average durability as well. However, this still doesn't change the fact that Tsunade was able to move and fight effectively despite having her spine pierced so the notion that her being electrocuted will deal more damage than a penetrated spinal cord is rendered mute.


Tsunade has never shown 'above average durability' whatsoever, she bleeds just as easily as any other shinobi. If she had nigh-high durability, then she would have been lauded for that on top of her strength. Her true power is her perseverance and ability to herself and keep going. The reason why she's commended the way she is because she truly stands above nearly every jounin in every village because she can take the hits and then blindside them afterwards. This is how she earned her 'slugging' name 



Isaiah13000 said:


> Hidan also has a 3.5 in speed, on top of having a 4.5 in taijutsu, yet Hidan could still pressure Kakashi pretty well. Tsunade has a 3.5 in speed, on top of a 5 in taijutsu, so logically she'd do even better rendering the whole argument about how he can easily dodge and evade all of her blows obsolete. Not to mention the Third Databook is outdated anyway, and no longer applies to War Arc Tsunade who has even better speed features than anything Hidan has demonstrated anyway.


Kakashi was legitimately engaging 2-3 vs. 1 in those instances, he had Kakuzu and Hidan out-sped individually but it's a more difficult challenge if you have to fight multiple opponents.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Kakashi is not taking down Tsunade with a Lightning Release Shadow Clone followed by a Raikiri, she will easily overpower being electrocuted and turn around and one-shot Kakashi as he gets close and impales her. Since I believe they're both in-character, and Kakashi isn't aware she has pseudo-immortality (no knowledge on SoHT) he'd likely go for her chest instead of her head anyway since he has consistently done that pretty much every time he's used Raikiri anyway. If Kakashi wants to win he'll have to attack from afar, engaging with Tsuande at short-range will end in Kakashi's death very quickly. He is smart enough to know that getting up close and personal with her is a foolish maneuver.


He is because it's an RKB would paralyze her, there is no counter/reaction to being paralyzed which is why Chouza stomped the crap out of Ashura otherwise, he would have escaped alongside Deva. There is no 'cure' for an intermittent paralysis because you aren't harming/killing any cells, you are just stunning them.



UchihaX28 said:


> Bee wasn't even using the Hachibi's durability to resist the attack. An example of when he did was when his hand expanded to block Itachi's Katon.


I was under the impression he was speaking about the genjutsu paralysis but Killer Bee also has greater durability than Tsunade though.



UchihaX28 said:


> Not only are those Databook entries outdated, but she has speed features that vastly exceed anything these two have done in combat, including her ability to swoop in and parry Madara's Katon before Mei could even cast a jutsu or slamming a Susano'o clone who couldn't even respond to her attack despite yelling a battle-cry. Hidan nor Wind-Arc Naruto have speed features that are remotely comparable to what Tsunade did.


The databook didn't misrepresent anything back then, and since then I could establish that Kakashi has grown just as much if not more since that time he was rated. Much of Tsunade's 'speed feats' came fighting the Gokage in a 5 (kage) vs. 1 (Madara) scenario. That doesn't really account for her 'speed' as much as Madara's split concentrations, since they attacked him in waves. This essentially boils down Kakashi vs. Kakuzu/Hidan + Beasts; so the speed feats aren't really speed feats for Gokage. If anything Madara being able to contend with all 5 of them is more of a feat.



UchihaX28 said:


> I agree, Kakashi is faster, but one thing you have clearly have forgotten to consider is how Kakashi makes use of his bunshin by taking advantage of his location. His most popular strategy is to hide under-ground and outwit his opponent with a clone. Unfortunately, not only does Tsunade have knowledge of it, but she also has physical strength that can plunge and expose any of Kakashi's clones (see Kakashi vs. Naruto and Sakura for reference). If his bunshin feints were as extraordinary as you say they are, we would not have witnessed her pupil expose Kakashi's bunshin strategy with a single maneuver, nor would we have witnessed Kakashi fail against Zabuza multiple times. If Kakashi cannot use the location to his advantage, then his bunshin feints aren't going to do him any good and fortunately, Tsunade eliminates his strength by ravaging the entire battle-field.


I don't see this happening at all, this like saying a stronger version of Hidan would win because he just punches the ground. Needless to say, Kakashi knows about her strength and what will and won't work on her, the difference is while she has him beat in physical strength and stamina, with taijutsu being more of a tie, he still has her over-matched in every other category whether it be ninjutsu, genjutsu, speed and strategy. I'll give you this, if she survives a head-shot Raikiri then I'll give her the match.



UchihaX28 said:


> Raiton clone wouldn't happen, but if it does, then a shock to the nervous system is something that can easily be dealt. She managed to swat away Madara before recuperating from damage done to her internal organs and continued to battle with a severed spinal cord. A simple jolt isn't impeding Tsunade in any sort of way.


RKB happens to fast and doesn't 'kill' anything on the cellular level, it just stuns it, so her healing isn't going to work on something that isn't technically damaged.


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## Mithos (Mar 24, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> She was left shocked and hung on Madara's blade for a while, and after some moments she moved.



She was playing possum to create an opening to attack him [1]. The fact that she was able to move so deftly before the wound (i.e., her spine) healed also suggests this.



> The "he never has done so in the manga" is not an argument for the battledome imo. We take feats and what we know the characters are capable of, and simulate a scenario.



Yet, nothing Kakashi has shown would indicate that he would be capable of such a thing. Indeed, Kakashi has participated in more battles than perhaps any character besides Naruto and Sasuke, many of them involving skirmishes in CQC. He has never used Raikiri like that, and he has been put on the defensive by characters less skilled than Tsunade.

What you're arguing is basically that a less skilled CQC fighter is going to be removing the limbs (something that almost _never_ happens) of more skilled fighter (Tsunade) without taking even a glancing blow. Any attempts by Kakashi to do so leaves openings for a counter-attack, and he can't afford to risk it.



> We know Kakashi can even do two Raikiri at a time, which is very useful, yet he doesn't use it. We know Kakashi can use kunai Raikiri, yet he didn't use it against Hidan. We know Kakashi has better sense of smell than Kiba, yet he didn't attempt it to track Zabuza in the mist, and couldn't smell Deidara who was lying in the ground couple metters from him. We know Kakashi can completely hide his presence and blindside, yet he didn't do that when Kakuzu thought he was dead, or in any other combat situation. We know Kakashi always uses clones, yet he didn't do so while charging Pain and Kakuzu. We know Kakashi has perfected his sharingan (which allows one to completely read movements before they happen and act accordingly), yet he didn't read Deva's simple stab, and didn't read Asura's dodge to his Raikiri, which is what he uses sharingan in the first place. And so much more.



How is using two Raikiri useful? Besides nullifying Kakuzu's attack, I can't think of a time when it would have been beneficial to use two instead of one. In fact, attacking with two requires a more choreographed motion that's easier to dodge/counter-attack.

He likely didn't use it against Hidan because he was so pressured he didn't have time. He was attempting to get away, but he couldn't because Hidan kept on him.

He didn't track Zabuza not because he chose not to, but because he couldn't. That should be clear after 3 fights against Zabuza. Kakashi also would not have summoned his dogs to track Zabuza if he could have done the same.

Kakashi did use clones against Pain, though.

The Sharingan is not a get-out-of-jail free card -- that is, even with it, he cannot evade everything.



> His rival happens to be the best taijutsu user of Konoha, and his taijutsu skills was praised too, parrying her blows can be easily done, with Raikiri, he just has to touch the side of her arm before it connects, and it falls off. Once a similar opening is made, it goes downhill for Tsunade.



His rival being the best taijutsu master is irrelevant, because that doesn't translate to Kakashi having better skills than Tsunade. She is canonically more skilled than he is.

Parrying her arm leaves him open. For example, say he does parry her arm with a Raikiri, what does he do when she swings the other and he's open because of his momentum? Or she knees him? She has shown to attack through debilitating attacks. There would be a trade, and Kakashi would lose.

I'm going to quit this debate though because it's getting frustrating. It's not worth my time to debate with someone that thinks Kakashi can "easily" parry and remove Tsunade's limbs in taijutsu.


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## Ayala (Mar 24, 2017)

Mithos said:


> She was playing possum to create an opening to attack him [1]. The fact that she was able to move so deftly before the wound (i.e., her spine) healed also suggests this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Parrying a blow from a predictable boxer like Tsunade whose intentions can be read quite easily, with Sharingan precog is easy indeed.

If it was normal close quarters, he loses because he can't hurt her and parrying her once or twice (which you're making it way too difficult, which isn't the case) doesn't stop the next blows. But with Raikiri, parrying her means she loses an arm.

The mist was never said to nullify sense of smell, Kakashi and Zabuza specifically mentioned the only thing it does is block the sight. He didn't even tempt it.

Raikiri can be done almost instantly, he saw Hidan taking position and charging, yet he only took a kunai.

He charged Pain with his real body at the start, without knowing what he's capable of.

Double Raikiri means covering his hands in dense chakra that allow him to melt everything he punches, to me it looks very useful.

-It's not worth my time.....

It's not worth anyone's time debating anyone over fanfic anime battles, it's only something you do out of boredom


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## Veracity (Mar 24, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> Parrying a blow from a predictable boxer like Tsunade whose intentions can be read quite easily, with Sharingan precog is easy indeed.



Why wasn't this done against Deva and Hidan? Both who possesss less taijustu skill than Tsuande? Why didn't he just dismantle Hidan at match start?


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## Ayala (Mar 24, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Why wasn't this done against Deva and Hidan? Both who possesss less taijustu skill than Tsuande? Why didn't he just dismantle Hidan at match start?



I already said what i think, the "it didn't happen in the manga" doesn't mean it wouldn't happen outside Kishi's writing.

Kakashi didn't even attempt Raikiri against Hidan, and Deva was with his back against the walls (literally) before using ST.

IMO, Kakashi has an edge in CQC only due to Raikiri, which is a deadly weapon and can counter her.


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## Santoryu (Mar 24, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Kakashi has no business stepping in CQC with Tsuande at all. If his CQC skill was so phenomenal, he would have disarmed and bisected Hidan the moment he entered his striking range





Kakashi incorporates Raikiri into his CQC, has a Sharingan, and experience of fighting the greatest close quarters specialist in the series. And can open at least the first gate. Tsunade's CQC is indubitably more destructive, but Kalashi's options in CQC are more diverse.

Against Hidan? A wind arc Kakashi that was tired, had an injured hand, and held his opponent off with a kunai. Before this Kakashi Raikiri-rushed Hidan, but Kakuzu intervened. Hidan's not a terrible CQC combatant himself.

Deva path is adept at CQC but would have been taken out by Raikiri were it not due to shinra tensei.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 24, 2017)

Tsunade incorporates Okasho into her close-quarters-combat, has Shosen for both healing and offense, Chakra no Mesu, Ranshinsho, and the experience she accumulated over the years was apparently of better quality than what Kakashi did because it resulted in a 5 compared to a 4.5. Even setting the databook aside, she's renowned as unmatched in both battle and medical Jutsu, so and as a Taijutsu-type a lot of that would apply largely to her close-combat prowess. Of course, the ability to regenerate organs and limbs is there to be factored in as well.

I wouldn't go as far as to say Kakashi has no business stepping into close-quarters with Tsunade at all, but if that scenario were advantageous to either ninja it would be Tsunade.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 24, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Tsunade has never shown 'above average durability' whatsoever, she bleeds just as easily as any other shinobi. If she had nigh-high durability, then she would have been lauded for that on top of her strength. Her true power is her perseverance and ability to herself and keep going. The reason why she's commended the way she is because she truly stands above nearly every jounin in every village because she can take the hits and then blindside them afterwards. This is how she earned her 'slugging' name


 I would argue that this is above average durability. She may have regenerated, but the damage it did wasn't that great to begin with. 




> Kakashi was legitimately engaging 2-3 vs. 1 in those instances, he had Kakuzu and Hidan out-sped individually but it's a more difficult challenge if you have to fight multiple opponents.


 Kakashi was not dealing with multiple targets at once in the scans I posted. He had trouble dealing with Hidan alone, and even more trouble when Kakuzu's masks leaped in. 




> He is because it's an RKB would paralyze her, there is no counter/reaction to being paralyzed which is why Chouza stomped the crap out of Ashura otherwise, he would have escaped alongside Deva. There is no 'cure' for an intermittent paralysis because you aren't harming/killing any cells, you are just stunning them.


 Getting electrocuted still isn't worse than moving while your spinal cord is pierced dude. Having your spine damaged can result in permanent paralysis and lost of function in a good portion of your body. The Asura Path doesn't have the SoHT, saying Tsunade can't move because the inferior Asura Path couldn't isn't a good argument.


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## Veracity (Mar 24, 2017)

Santoryu said:


> Kakashi incorporates Raikiri into his CQC, has a Sharingan, and experience of fighting the greatest close quarters specialist in the series. And can open at least the first gate. Tsunade's CQC is indubitably more destructive, but Kalashi's options in CQC are more diverse.
> 
> Against Hidan? A wind arc Kakashi that was tired, had an injured hand, and held his opponent off with a kunai. Before this Kakashi Raikiri-rushed Hidan, but Kakuzu intervened. Hidan's not a terrible CQC combatant himself.
> 
> Deva path is adept at CQC but would have been taken out by Raikiri were it not due to shinra tensei.



- Tsuande is more skilled in taijustu than Kakashi. That is a fact.
- Him fighting Gai in whatever scenario you have imagined, takes a heavy backseat to what feats he has on panel.
- Tsuande has years and years of experience on Kakashi in taijustu scenarios.
- Kakashi won't open the first gate Tsuande or anybody he fights.

Kakashi wasn't even using his injured hand, and he didn't seem exhausted at all in that stipulation. I'm not trying to devalue Hidan's abilities, but assuming Tsuande is going to be casually outmaneuvered and parried in CQC sounds silly when considering his performance against a slower and less skilled opponent; she also happens to have the ability to kill Kakashi with any contact made.

Deva is fast and reflex but doesn't have an ounce of the skill in CQC that Tsuande has.


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## LostSelf (Mar 24, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> It still applies. If Tsunade couldn't have kept up with Madara he wouldn't have ever resorted to the doppelganger.
> 
> The feats you listed simply prove that Madara would have no issue keeping up with Tsunade, but they say nothing about the reverse, which is what I'm talking about.



But it was the team effort allowed Tsunade to keep up with Madara. Everything that led to Madara being blown away was a team effort, even her keeping pace.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 24, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I would argue that this is above average durability. She may have regenerated, but the damage it did wasn't that great to begin with.


That is not a feat of 'durability' but regeneration/recovery or healing prowess, further proving my initial point.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Kakashi was *not dealing with multiple targets* at once in the scans I posted. He had trouble dealing with Hidan alone, and even more trouble when Kakuzu's masks leaped in.


He *just escaped Zukoku* and then Hidan attacked him from his blindside and in the other link Hidan attacks which Kakashi reacts to and defends against without issues, which is *followed up with Atsugai*, how is that combination/multiple targets by any means?



Isaiah13000 said:


> Getting electrocuted still isn't worse than moving while your spinal cord is pierced dude. Having your spine damaged can result in permanent paralysis and lost of function in a good portion of your body. The Asura Path doesn't have the SoHT, saying Tsunade can't move because the inferior Asura Path couldn't isn't a good argument.


It stops her from moving, no matter how you slice it, she is still stuck by this technique, because it's a way around her regeneration and not something she can 'out-muscle'-Put it simply, if a dead Pain Path was overcome by this and they are moving by chakra, she is kind of screwed here.


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## Veracity (Mar 24, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> That is not a feat of 'durability' but regeneration/recovery or healing prowess, further proving my initial point.



No no. That's a feat of durability. Byakago didn't kick in until after she hit the crater and stood up. Meaning she didn't receive any additional damage than the stab wound from sussano.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 24, 2017)

Veracity said:


> No no. That's a feat of durability. Byakago didn't kick in until after she hit the crater and stood up. Meaning she didn't receive any additional damage than the stab wound from sussano.


You mean she wasn't cut open from the technique? Because she was.

That isn't a 'feat of durability'


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 24, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> That is not a feat of 'durability' but regeneration/recovery or healing prowess, further proving my initial point.


 The fact that a hole wasn't blown straight through her stomach and out her back is an example of durability. She can't regenerate that fast, so it means that the Yasaka Magatama only pierced slightly into her abdomen. 




> He *just escaped Zukoku* and then Hidan attacked him from his blindside and in the other link Hidan attacks which Kakashi reacts to and defends against without issues, which is *followed up with Atsugai*, how is that combination/multiple targets by any means?


 When Hidan attacked Kakashi directly Kakashi still had difficulty dealing with Hidan alone. Hidan didn't attack Kakashi at the exact same time he was dealing with Kakuzu's jutsu. He attacked either before or after Kakuzu already launched his jutsu, and Kakashi clearly had some issues as seen by his facial expressions. The point is he wasn't effortlessly dancing around Hidan, and Hidan is less skilled in CQC than Tsunade is. 




> It stops her from moving, no matter how you slice it, she is still stuck by this technique, because it's a way around her regeneration and not something she can 'out-muscle'-Put it simply, if a dead Pain Path was overcome by this and they are moving by chakra, she is kind of screwed here.


 So does getting her spinal cord pierced, but that didn't stop her from moving at all. Tsunade's SoHT makes her pseudo-immortal and defies the laws of science, I don't understand why that is hard to comprehend. The Asura Path is also primarily comprised of metal, which is an excellent conductor for electrical currents. The Paths despite being dead are also kind of alive as long as chakra is flowing through them, as if their bodies take too much damage they can "die" and have to have their bodies restored. There's also the fact that Yahiko's body clearly aged compared to when he died before when he was 15, and as the Deva Path he is noted to look about 25 to 30. In addition, the lightning would not bypass her regeneration because electricity does more than simply "stun" it also causes damage on a cellular level: which the Strength of a Hundred Technique overcomes by regenerating brand new and healthy cells. What you're basically arguing is that Tsunade will be incapacitated by being shocked, even though she was not incapacitated by having her spine pierced which is much worse. On top of saying that if the Asura Path, who's main weakness would logically be electricity (unlike Tsunade), was incapacitated, then Tsunade will be as well. Do you see why this doesn't make any sense?

Reactions: Like 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 24, 2017)

Far as I'm concerned, Tsunade has no real way to win this. Even if by some stroke of luck that she outwits Kakashi and leaves him helpless in the air with no clones to feint him out by smashing the ground, any attempt to finish the job up close would be interrupted by a Kamui straight to her neck.

In the meantime, I expect Tsunade to mitigate the effectiveness of Kamui by launching rocks everywhere with her punches. But with Kakashi's considerably superior tactical ability, he'll draw her to and paralyze her with a Lightning Clone and either:

a) Behead her with a Raikiri
b) Bifurcate her with Lightning Chain
c) Warp her head off with Kamui

Kakashi has way many options at his disposal, and Tsunade is far too limited and slow to be of any real threat.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## FlamingRain (Mar 24, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> But it was the team effort allowed Tsunade to keep up with Madara. Everything that led to Madara being blown away was a team effort, even her keeping pace.



You just stated the same thing without providing anything to address the reasoning I provided.

Tsunade keeping pace isn't part of what would be a team effort, it was a _requirement for_ the team effort as shown. That was the part she was responsible for, else Madara would have simply owned Tsunade once they were close to each other and skipped the doppelganger tactic, because Madara clearly wasn't looking to resort to it and the other Kage couldn't get in Madara's way without also getting in Tsunade's way.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Veracity (Mar 24, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> You mean she wasn't cut open from the technique? Because she was.
> 
> That isn't a 'feat of durability'


She was cut open from the Sussano blade,  But received no damage from Yasaka. A feat of durability clearly


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 24, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> The databook didn't misrepresent anything back then, and since then I could establish that Kakashi has grown just as much if not more since that time he was rated. Much of Tsunade's 'speed feats' came fighting the Gokage in a 5 (kage) vs. 1 (Madara) scenario. That doesn't really account for her 'speed' as much as Madara's split concentrations, since they attacked him in waves. This essentially boils down Kakashi vs. Kakuzu/Hidan + Beasts; so the speed feats aren't really speed feats for Gokage. If anything Madara being able to contend with all 5 of them is more of a feat.



Sure you could, but this is not what we were arguing about in the first place, we're addressing your false conception of Tsunade's speed based on outdated information and much of the speed features Tsunade displayed suggests that it's trash. It may have been relevant previously, but not now.

I'm certain you veered away from the feats that I did present you because Tsunade accomplished these feats with no assistance from the Gokage. Susano'o clones were used under the premise of splitting up the Gokage while Tsunade's interception feat was done autonomously. None of it involved attacking Madara in waves, I'm not even sure where you got that from.



> I don't see this happening at all, this like saying a stronger version of Hidan would win because he just punches the ground. Needless to say, Kakashi knows about her strength and what will and won't work on her, the difference is while she has him beat in physical strength and stamina, with taijutsu being more of a tie, he still has her over-matched in every other category whether it be ninjutsu, genjutsu, speed and strategy. I'll give you this, if she survives a head-shot Raikiri then I'll give her the match.



Rather than you're deluded by your biased preconceptions since this is explicitly what we're shown with Sakura effortlessly exposing Kakashi's trickery with a single maneuver. I suggest you stop grasping at straws and actually address why Tsunade is incapable of doing so. None of this rambling about Kakashi's strengths won't do you any good because I've acknowledged them, but it does not address how Tsunade would preclude Kakashi's bunshins with feats from Sakura that can be extrapolated to Tsunade. All I'm reading is that Kakashi is clever, he will somehow find a way passed it even though you haven't provided much of a clear, coherent explanation as to how he can accomplish this.



> RKB happens to fast and doesn't 'kill' anything on the cellular level, it just stuns it, so her healing isn't going to work on something that isn't technically damaged.



Severing the spinal cord results induces the same-effect of paralysis to an even greater extent yet this did not impede Tsunade's movements or strength in any sort of way. Why would a meager jolt accomplish something that a severed spinal cord couldn't? It still doesn't make sense.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 25, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> When Hidan attacked Kakashi directly Kakashi still had difficulty dealing with Hidan alone. Hidan didn't attack Kakashi at the exact same time he was dealing with Kakuzu's jutsu. He attacked either before or after Kakuzu already launched his jutsu, and Kakashi clearly had some issues as seen by his facial expressions. The point is he wasn't effortlessly dancing around Hidan, and Hidan is less skilled in CQC than Tsunade is.


What are you talking about? Kakashi fought him evenly, he didn't have trouble, he defend against his moves and Hidan even complimented him for it. Then Atsugai came and attack him and Hidan, there's a huge difference when you have to worry about 3-4 opponents, as opposed to worrying about a single opponent. I'm not sure where you're getting your information, please post scans where Kakashi's remotely indicated that Hidan's skill was *'too tough'* for him.



UchihaX28 said:


> we're addressing your false conception of Tsunade's speed based on outdated information and much of the speed features Tsunade displayed suggests that it's trash. It may have been relevant previously, but not now.


There are no speed feats for her, she's stayed the same as she was rated back in the databook. There was nothing mentioned about her becoming faster with Byakugo or whatever was listed. She needed 4 other kages attacking Madara in order to be able to land hits on Madara, when she didn't have them and went up against Madara in the 5 Susano'o vs. 1 Kage part of the battle, what happened? She got skewered, while none of the other kage sustained damage like that at all, so in fact, I don't really see Tsunade as fast at all or having any improvements in her speed. Kakashi is no Madara, but even he was complimented by Obito during the Kage Summit Arc as being 'fast' - I don't think I've seen a single instance where she was commended for her speed and likewise, I don't think she's going to be making much of a difference against Kakashi.


UchihaX28 said:


> All I'm reading is that Kakashi is clever, he will somehow find a way passed it even though you haven't provided much of a clear, coherent explanation as to how he can accomplish this.


You really think he won't? He has executed a bunshin against the shinobi tougher than Tsunade in all facets of combat,  (i.e. Itachi, Pain, Obito) and somehow you think she'll figure it out? The man was lauded by Hagoromo as being instrumental in contriving a plan to take down Kaguya and somehow he's going to have brain freeze against Tsunade? Please stop.

Tsunade is not in his league that is simply why he puts her down, take your pick on how you want her to go. He can genjutsu her from the start and lop of her head, he can stun her with an RKB using Raikiri Wolf and then head-shot her w/Raikiri  or he can simply bisect her with Raiden. Her only advantage in this fight is her resilience which I've given her credit for and having an idea that Kakashi can use clones isn't the equivalent of knowing what she's up against is a clone. Pain fought Kakashi's RKB for an extensive period and even he was surprised that Kakashi was a clone.



UchihaX28 said:


> Severing the spinal cord results induces the same-effect of paralysis to an even greater extent yet this did not impede Tsunade's movements or strength in any sort of way. Why would a meager jolt accomplish something that a severed spinal cord couldn't? It still doesn't make sense.





Isaiah13000 said:


> So does getting her spinal cord pierced, but that didn't stop her from moving at all. Tsunade's SoHT makes her pseudo-immortal and defies the laws of science, I don't understand why that is hard to comprehend. The Asura Path is also primarily comprised of metal, which is an excellent conductor for electrical currents. The Paths despite being dead are also kind of alive as long as chakra is flowing through them, as if their bodies take too much damage they can "die" and have to have their bodies restored. There's also the fact that Yahiko's body clearly aged compared to when he died before when he was 15, and as the Deva Path he is noted to look about 25 to 30. In addition, the lightning would not bypass her regeneration because electricity does more than simply "stun" it also causes damage on a cellular level: which the Strength of a Hundred Technique overcomes by regenerating brand new and healthy cells. What you're basically arguing is that Tsunade will be incapacitated by being shocked, even though she was not incapacitated by having her spine pierced which is much worse. On top of saying that if the Asura Path, who's main weakness would logically be electricity (unlike Tsunade), was incapacitated, then Tsunade will be as well. Do you see why this doesn't make any sense?


Because she was receiving continuous damage and she was healing herself instantaneously something akin to what Sakura did against Sasori except she did it w/Byakugo. When she gets jolted, nothing in her body is dying, it's just being stunned, so the her body has nothing to heal, ergo she gets stunned and cannot move.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 25, 2017)

Veracity said:


> She was cut open from the Sussano blade,  But received no damage from Yasaka. A feat of durability clearly


Not really, she was healing herself from when she was cut, so receiving 'no damage' was probably par for the course because she already started the healing process.


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## Ishmael (Mar 25, 2017)

Clone feints, great analytical ability and more versatility gives kakashi the win. Kamui can take a limb off leaving her handicapped or even take off a vital area and simply kill her.

Raikiri can end her if kakashi uses a feint and distracts her enough tricking her into thinking its the real deal and since she has no way to tell any different she should fall for it pretty easily. Then he proceeds to end it right then and there with the fatal surprise attack. 

Naturally he can only use his 2 big techs 3 times a day but I didn't check op again to see if this is a later version of kakashi. If so then that slims tsunade chances even more since he'll be able to use his two dangerous attacks more then the usual limit.

Only thing that poses a threat is tsunades durability.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## LostSelf (Mar 25, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> You just stated the same thing without providing anything to address the reasoning I provided.
> 
> Tsunade keeping pace isn't part of what would be a team effort, it was a _requirement for_ the team effort as shown. That was the part she was responsible for, else Madara would have simply owned Tsunade once they were close to each other and skipped the doppelganger tactic, because Madara clearly wasn't looking to resort to it and the other Kage couldn't get in Madara's way without also getting in Tsunade's way.



I don't need to provide anything because you're claiming something off panel that goes against the reasoning of Madara and Tsunade's statement. He was forced to trick them with clones because they were 5. THis is as much as we know, Tsunade's part here that lead to her hitting Madara is assumption since we only saw her after she hit.

You have two terrain manipulators that could've bothered Madara's footing (three, if you count Tsunade), and one of them has the very floor Madara stands in under his control. So it's way more likely that Gaara fucked Madara's footing and allowed Tsunade to hit him.

The very fact that Madara couldn't own her is enough merit to say she didn't chase him on her own and that Madara was likely forced to take the hit. Because, again, Madara has reacted to far worse than that. And for him to be hit by Tsunade chasing him without the lages not affecting Madara's movement goes against everything.

Unless you tell me the other kages were standing there doing nothing while Tsunade chased him.  Therefore her team's assistance should've helped her greatly at keeping up with Madara, or could've bothered Madara enough to not be able to outrun Tsunade.

Or i don't understand what you're telling me, or i don't see how she can chase Madara in a team effort and the kages not help her making it easier for her. Any action they did when Madara was trying to dodge her was a help. It wasn't a Pokemon fight that's one attack per turn. The 5 were actively attacking Madara.

It's obvious (in my eyes) that Tsunade would have a way easier time keeping up.


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## Veracity (Mar 25, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Not really, she was healing herself from when she was cut, so receiving 'no damage' was probably par for the course because she already started the healing process.


The sword was stuck in her body and she didn't actually start regenerating until after she was exploded into crater. So when the panel zoomed in on Tsuande's cut, that was the damage dealt before Byakago actually kicked in.


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## Santoryu (Mar 25, 2017)

Tsunade: (If it's him I'm dealing with, I'll need to resort to _that jutsu)._

Kakashi: (She's one of the Sannin. Even with my new powers, I can't take any unnecessary risks).

*Tsunade rushes her opponent down and shatters the surface resulting in shattered debris. Kakashi adroitly avoids her attack and responds with a smokebomb*

Tsunade: you think that'll stop me?
*flashes her smooth (....), oversized breasts and notices Kakashi's consequential lust  and vulnerability. She attempts a heel drop, but Kakashi closes his eye in order to avoid distractions and evades her attack.*

Tsunade: How did you evade that? 
Kakashi: Think back to my smokebomb which was infused with lavender. And I like dogs. Tsunade: !!!

*A Tsunade clone sneaks up on Kakashi and crushes his skull unmercilessly. Pop. It's a clone!"

Tsunade: I know where you're hiding...

*karate chops the surface and exposes a makeomakeout paradise reading Kakashi*

Tsunade: I scattered Katsuya pieces during your little smokebomb 

Kakashi: I could get close and personal with you and rock it with Raikiri.... 


But my fans are waiting

*Kamui!*

The end

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 1 | Informative 1 | Creative 1


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 25, 2017)

@Santoryu

 That was some entertaining fanfic.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## Santoryu (Mar 25, 2017)

I would have posted a long version but I hate typing on my phone.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 25, 2017)

Santoryu said:


> I would have posted a long version but I hate typing on my phone.



 I feel it. Mobile sucks for that type of stuff.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 25, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> What are you talking about? Kakashi fought him evenly, he didn't have trouble, he defend against his moves and Hidan even complimented him for it. Then Atsugai came and attack him and Hidan, there's a huge difference when you have to worry about 3-4 opponents, as opposed to worrying about a single opponent. I'm not sure where you're getting your information, please post scans where Kakashi's remotely indicated that Hidan's skill was *'too tough'* for him.


 Kakashi fighting evenly with Hidan is an example of him having difficulty with him. I didn't say Hidan was overwhelming Kakashi, only that he was capable of challenging him in CQC which he clearly did. Had Hidan and Kakuzu's masks attacked Kakashi simultaneously then you'd have a point, but Hidan attacked Kakashi individually and was able to keep up with him. Now you add half a tier to taijutsu skill, which is Tsunade, coupled with incredible regenerative capabilities and the ability to obliterate the ground beneath Kakashi simply by stomping on it and Kakashi is in trouble.  



Ryuzaki said:


> Because she was receiving continuous damage and she was healing herself instantaneously something akin to what Sakura did against Sasori except she did it w/Byakugo. When she gets jolted, nothing in her body is dying, it's just being stunned, so the her body has nothing to heal, ergo she gets stunned and cannot move.


 Her cells would still be taking damage, and the SoHT heals that. Being electrified does cellular damage, you can look it up. It doesn't instantaneously heal everything anyway, it takes a few moments, and it cannot heal areas that are still impaled by something. Yet she could still move before all of the damage was completely healed, I don't understand how her being able to move with her spinal cord fucked up doesn't automatically mean being electrified will be ineffective. The damage is far more severe, and she overpowered it despite it not being completely healed yet.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 25, 2017)

Chocochip said:


> He treats his sons like slaves or something. It's fucking weird, he pimps them out.


The problem is it's not so much Lonzo he's fucking over, it's the fact that he's legitimately going to be a problem associated with whatever organization Lonzo ends up being drafted to. Now, I know the Lakers are interested in this since I saw the Magic podcast, but I feel like even they may pass on him because that Jackson kid looks promising too.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Veracity (Mar 25, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> The problem is it's not so much Lonzo he's fucking over, it's the fact that he's legitimately going to be a problem associated with whatever organization Lonzo ends up being drafted to. Now, I know the Lakers are interested in this since I saw the Magic podcast, but I feel like even they may pass on him because that Jackson kid looks promising too.


This is sooo of task but Lavar be pissing me off too. I got nothing wrong with Lonzo, but his dad makes me not want him to succeed.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 26, 2017)

Veracity said:


> The sword was stuck in her body and she didn't actually start regenerating until after she was exploded into crater. So when the panel zoomed in on Tsuande's cut, that was the damage dealt before Byakago actually kicked in.


I see what you are saying, then perhaps I misinterpreted it, but I feel like her chakra was already there. Also, I apologize earlier I didn't mean to post there here, because I was posting in both  and here, so I'll just leave those posts for now but we can carry the conversation there if need be.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Kakashi fighting evenly with Hidan is an example of him having difficulty with him. I didn't say Hidan was overwhelming Kakashi, only that he was capable of challenging him in CQC which he clearly did. Had Hidan and Kakuzu's masks attacked Kakashi simultaneously then you'd have a point, but Hidan attacked Kakashi individually and was able to keep up with him. Now you add half a tier to taijutsu skill, which is Tsunade, coupled with incredible regenerative capabilities and the ability to obliterate the ground beneath Kakashi simply by stomping on it and Kakashi is in trouble.


He's not fighting evenly, he's defending against unique weapon with a kunai while running from Kakuzu's attacks. Throughout the entire match, Kakashi was only playing an entire defensive strategy, he never opted for offense because Kakuzu/Hidan timed their attacks quite accurately. Hidan's skill with his weapon and taijutsu overall were ranked in the same category as Kakashi, however, the two clearly were not in the same category as even Hidan declared he was good. 

Put it this way, Tsunade's CQC is rated to better than Kakashi's during the time of the databooks, however, that doesn't include the sharingan. The sharingan literally makes this a deciding factor because even Gai stated difficulty in matching up against Kakashi and he was both faster and more skilled than Kakashi. I do not see her taking down Kakashi in this manner.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Her cells would still be taking damage, and the SoHT heals that. Being electrified does cellular damage, you can look it up. It doesn't instantaneously heal everything anyway, it takes a few moments, and it cannot heal areas that are still impaled by something. Yet she could still move before all of the damage was completely healed, I don't understand how her being able to move with her spinal cord fucked up doesn't automatically mean being electrified will be ineffective. The damage is far more severe, and she overpowered it despite it not being completely healed yet.


No, they won't by her definition and mechanism of how her techniques a temporary electric shock will not harm or kill cells, it will impede movement because there isn't enough time to re-polarize the membranes which create the action potentials. All the a temporary electric shock (RKB) does is deplete the ionic stores within the skeletal muscle cells thereby leaving no gradient for the action potential to travel down. There is no cure for that because it is not damaging cells because traditionally this is what happens after regular movement, however in regular movement not every cell is involved, whereas this is striking the body in that manner. Now, if this were a true lightning strike, I'd agree with you because there is significant damage done by that.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## FlamingRain (Mar 26, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> I don't need to provide anything because you're claiming something off panel that goes against the reasoning of Madara and Tsunade's statement.
> 
> Or i don't understand what you're telling me, or i don't see how she can chase Madara in a team effort and the kages not help her making it easier for her.



It doesn't matter. My reasoning is there, and if you don't address said reasoning I have literally no good reason to even consider your response. You haven't yet, for example, explained what the alternate reasoning behind what Madara said would be. That said, I think you might not be understanding what I'm saying.

We _know_ that at the time Tsunade landed the hit the other Kage were at a distance from her, we _know_ that Madara had not harmed her because Madara would discover Sozo Saisei later in the match, and this in spite of the fact that we _know_ Madara wanted Tsunade dead first. We can more reasonably than not infer that Madara would not have resorted to the doppelganger tactic if it were unnecessary based on how he responded to the comment Tsunade made, and thus from that can infer that Tsunade must've been capable of keeping up with Madara's speed and Taijutsu.

What I mean by "keeping up with Madara's speed and Taijutsu" is that Tsunade had the reflex, execution, and recovery speed to react to what Madara might've tried (this can be the case even when vice versa is also true), _not_ the direct movement speed to chase Madara down. _That_ is what the other Kage were there for- if Madara were to try to run away from Tsunade, they would use their Jutsu to keep him within close-proximity. But they can't have done more than that based on how far they were and the fact that if they were to get in Madara's way they would have gotten in Tsunade's, because Tsunade was attempting to fight up close and personal (we can throw the "Gaara did it" scenario out because we _know_ that there was no sand near Madara when Tsunade landed that punch).

If Tsunade can do that with Madara, she can most definitely do the same with Kakashi. That Kakashi can use a Sharingan does not change the fact that Tsunade herself should be more than capable of reacting to Kakashi, too.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 26, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> He's not fighting evenly, he's defending against unique weapon with a kunai while running from Kakuzu's attacks. Throughout the entire match, Kakashi was only playing an entire defensive strategy, he never opted for offense because Kakuzu/Hidan timed their attacks quite accurately. Hidan's skill with his weapon and taijutsu overall were ranked in the same category as Kakashi, however, the two clearly were not in the same category as even Hidan declared he was good.


 Kakashi is better than Hidan, I agree with that but Hidan is still capable of challenging Kakashi in CQC. Whether Kakashi was being offensive and defensive, he clearly could not effortlessly tap dance around Hidan. Hidan declaring that Kakashi is good doesn't mean that Hidan is in a different category compared to Kakashi either. 



> Put it this way, Tsunade's CQC is rated to better than Kakashi's during the time of the databooks, however, that doesn't include the sharingan. The sharingan literally makes this a deciding factor because even Gai stated difficulty in matching up against Kakashi and he was both faster and more skilled than Kakashi. I do not see her taking down Kakashi in this manner.


 If Tsunade's skills in CQC enabled her to overwhelm a legged Humanoid Susanoo Wood Clone and briefly pressure Madara Uchiha, then it's going to pressure Kakashi, Sharingan or not. Before you say anything, I'm aware that the Wood Clones weren't going all-out but they were still clearly trying to kill them all as we saw against Mei and Gaara. I know Madara stated that it was five-on-one which is the reason he was forced to use a Wood Clone, but Madara was referring to what Mei, A, and Onoki did before and what Tsunade and Gaara were about to do. I also know that Madara is much faster than Tsunade, and could easily avoid her punches if he so desired but he still clearly viewed her as dangerous enough in taijutsu to decide to simply get away from her altogether by using a Wood Clone. So I don't see Kakashi taking her down in that manner at all. 



Ryuzaki said:


> No, they won't by her definition and mechanism of how her techniques a temporary electric shock will not harm or kill cells, it will impede movement because there isn't enough time to re-polarize the membranes which create the action potentials. All the a temporary electric shock (RKB) does is deplete the ionic stores within the skeletal muscle cells thereby leaving no gradient for the action potential to travel down. There is no cure for that because it is not damaging cells because traditionally this is what happens after regular movement, however in regular movement not every cell is involved, whereas this is striking the body in that manner. Now, if this were a true lightning strike, I'd agree with you because there is significant damage done by that.


 Honestly, you seem far more knowledgeable on the mechanics behind electrocution than I do. So I will concede on that point, but why exactly do you believe this will be more effective than having her spine pierced though?


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 26, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Kakashi is better than Hidan, I agree with that but Hidan is still capable of challenging Kakashi in CQC. Whether Kakashi was being offensive and defensive, he clearly could not effortlessly tap dance around Hidan. Hidan declaring that Kakashi is good doesn't mean that Hidan is in a different category compared to Kakashi either.


It does, if one has a superior weapon, it's one thing if Kakashi used a sword or similar weapon against Hidan's, he used a mere kunai. That is the definition of skill disparity in hand to hand in combat.



Isaiah13000 said:


> If Tsunade's skills in CQC enabled her to overwhelm a legged Humanoid Susanoo Wood Clone and briefly pressure Madara Uchiha, then it's going to pressure Kakashi, Sharingan or not. Before you say anything, I'm aware that the Wood Clones weren't going all-out but they were still clearly trying to kill them all as we saw against Mei and Gaara. I know Madara stated that it was five-on-one which is the reason he was forced to use a Wood Clone, but Madara was referring to what Mei, A, and Onoki did before and what Tsunade and Gaara were about to do. I also know that Madara is much faster than Tsunade, and could easily avoid her punches if he so desired but he still clearly viewed her as dangerous enough in taijutsu to decide to simply get away from her altogether by using a Wood Clone. So I don't see Kakashi taking her down in that manner at all.


The sharingan makes a significant difference, Gai is a faster and more skillful taijtutsu user than Tsunade, yet he, himself stated that Kakashi's sharingan is what made the difference between the two. If Kakashi has no problem reacting to Gai, he's not going to have an issue against Tsunade, skill level doesn't matter. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> Honestly, you seem far more knowledgeable on the mechanics behind electrocution than I do. So I will concede on that point, but why exactly do you believe this will be more effective than having her spine pierced though?


One is a definitive injury that starts the healing process naturally, the other is not.


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## Veracity (Mar 26, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> It does, if one has a superior weapon, it's one thing if Kakashi used a sword or similar weapon against Hidan's, he used a mere kunai. That is the definition of skill disparity in hand to hand in combat.
> 
> 
> The sharingan makes a significant difference, Gai is a faster and more skillful taijtutsu user than Tsunade, yet he, himself stated that Kakashi's sharingan is what made the difference between the two. If Kakashi has no problem reacting to Gai, he's not going to have an issue against Tsunade, skill level doesn't matter.
> ...



When did Gai state the Sharingan made the difference between him and Kakashi?


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 26, 2017)

Veracity said:


> When did Gai state the Sharingan made the difference between him and Kakashi?


Way back in Part 1 sometime.


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## Jad (Mar 27, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Way back in Part 1 sometime.


Gai can't even look Kakashi in the eye when they fight. How does Tsunade do what Gai had to master? To me that implies that Kakashi used a lot of Genjutsu trickery.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Android (Mar 27, 2017)

Santoryu said:


> I would have posted a long version but I hate typing on my phone.


Thank God you didn't

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 27, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> It does, if one has a superior weapon, it's one thing if Kakashi used a sword or similar weapon against Hidan's, he used a mere kunai. That is the definition of skill disparity in hand to hand in combat.


 Fair enough.




> The sharingan makes a significant difference, Gai is a faster and more skillful taijtutsu user than Tsunade, yet he, himself stated that Kakashi's sharingan is what made the difference between the two. If Kakashi has no problem reacting to Gai, he's not going to have an issue against Tsunade, skill level doesn't matter.


 No it doesn't. Guy is faster than base Tsunade, but SoHT Tsunade is more powerful than base Tsunade (per , here, and ) and has better speed feats than base Guy does. If Tsunade's taijutsu is relevant against Madara Uchiha, then it's going to be relevant against Kakashi Hatake regardless. It doesn't matter what Guy said back in Part 1, when we're shown that doesn't mean much in Part 2. Even Guy himself was challenging Obito pretty well in CQC despite Obito also having a Sharingan (and Kamui to boot). So clearly Guy and Tsunade's taijutsu skills are capable of overcoming that by the end of Part 2.




> One is a definitive injury that starts the healing process naturally, the other is not.


 Alright.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 27, 2017)

Jad said:


> Gai can't even look Kakashi in the eye when they fight. How does Tsunade do what Gai had to master? To me that implies that Kakashi used a lot of Genjutsu trickery.


 How did Kakuzu and Hidan fight Kakashi without looking in his eye? How did the Deva and Asura Path fight Kakashi without looking in his eye? How did base Sasuke fight Kakashi without looking in his eye? You're saying Tsunade can't deal with Kakashi in CQC, because base Guy from Part 1 couldn't, when we're shown in Part 2 that several opponents who lack the Sharingan have fought Kakashi just fine in CQC without being ensnared in any type of genjutsu. So clearly it's not a tactic that Kakashi employs very often, so I see no reason why he will employ it now. On top of the fact that Guy and Tsunade have both fought Sharingan users just fine in Part 2. Yet Tsunade can't get around Kakashi's Sharingan because of what Guy said in early Part 1, you see why this makes no sense right?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Jad (Mar 28, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> How did Kakuzu and Hidan fight Kakashi without looking in his eye? How did the Deva and Asura Path fight Kakashi without looking in his eye? How did base Sasuke fight Kakashi without looking in his eye? You're saying Tsunade can't deal with Kakashi in CQC, because base Guy from Part 1 couldn't, when we're shown in Part 2 that several opponents who lack the Sharingan have fought Kakashi just fine in CQC without being ensnared in any type of genjutsu. So clearly it's not a tactic that Kakashi employs very often, so I see no reason why he will employ it now. On top of the fact that Guy and Tsunade have both fought Sharingan users just fine in Part 2. Yet Tsunade can't get around Kakashi's Sharingan because of what Guy said in early Part 1, you see why this makes no sense right?


I'm a bit busy. Will respond later fully. But Gai ALWAYS fights Sharingan users without looking in their eyes. It was always implied as such. So anytime Gai fought a Sharingan user it was him looking at their feet.

Also as per your last post. Tsunade has NEVER in a million years ever been as fast or faster than Base Gai. That is astronomically wrong. Your supposed feats don't put her above Gai at all.

"Unless vital body parts are affected or very deep wounds are present, she can restore her body back to the state of absolute 'uninjuredness'. " This quote from the German DB 4 translation interests me.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 28, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> How did Kakuzu and Hidan fight Kakashi without looking in his eye?


They out-numbered him and kept him on the defensive as well as out of range (i.e. when was Kakashi ever face to face with either of them)? Tsunade is not able to replicate these feats as she cannot out-number him, keep him on the defensive and/or out of range since she is a poor user of ninjutsu, slower and specializes in CQC.



Isaiah13000 said:


> How did the Deva and Asura Path fight Kakashi without looking in his eye?


All paths are dead and do not have brain activity, rather Nagato just uses them for their eyes and techniques.



Isaiah13000 said:


> How did base Sasuke fight Kakashi without looking in his eye?


Are you talking about when Kakashi fought against Sasuke in Part 1?



Isaiah13000 said:


> You're saying Tsunade can't deal with Kakashi in CQC, because base Guy from Part 1 couldn't, when we're shown in Part 2 that several opponents who lack the Sharingan have fought Kakashi just fine in CQC without being ensnared in any type of genjutsu. So clearly it's not a tactic that Kakashi employs very often, so I see no reason why he will employ it now. On top of the fact that Guy and Tsunade have both fought Sharingan users just fine in Part 2. Yet Tsunade can't get around Kakashi's Sharingan because of what Guy said in early Part 1, you see why this makes no sense right?


Kakashi fought Obito in genjutsu for an extensive period of time in Kamui, I'd say he's accustomed to using genjutsu at least after his War Arc feats. Tsunade has only ever shown to be a taijutsu user outside of her medical ninjutsu however, she doesn't have the speed that Gai does so it's really difficult for me to believe that someone significantly slower than Gai would somehow not only move too fast for Kakashi to react to on the regular (despite Kakashi being faster than her) but yet somehow manages to move faster than the sharingan precognition on top of that.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 28, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> They out-numbered him and kept him on the defensive as well as out of range


Hidan and Kakuzu only fought against Kakashi for a brief moment. After Hidan goes with Shikamaru. . Why Kakashi aint able to deal with kakuzu instead almost gonna die twice by Kakuzu's hands ?!


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 28, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Hidan and Kakuzu only fought against Kakashi for a brief moment. After Hidan goes with Shikamaru. . Why Kakashi aint able to deal with kakuzu instead almost gonna die twice by Kakuzu's hands ?!


He was tangling with 3 beasts and Kakuzu, more to the point, they kept him on the defensive and as he said he was about to use his sharingan when Kakuzu brought him in close but Naruto and co. showed up. Kakuzu was using the wind/fire elements to tag-team Kakashi with a combined element and then attack him from the blindside. 

You can't expect Kakashi to be everywhere and this is the only true knock I have against Kakashi, is that he doesn't have an AoE defensive jutsu.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 28, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> He was tangling with 3 beasts and Kakuzu


And he had some supports too. And after takin 2 heart.. Kakashi still aint able to do a shit to Kakuzu.. Is two heart creature is fine enough to cornered Kakashi that badly. Why Tsunade And Katsuyu couldn't ?!


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 28, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> And he had some supports too. And after takin 2 heart.. Kakashi still aint able to do a shit to Kakuzu.. Is two heart creature is fine enough to cornered Kakashi that badly. Why Tsunade And Katsuyu couldn't ?!


What support? Ino and Chouji were either tangling with the other mask or hiding, there was no legitimate support for Kakashi. He was attacked by (2) masks (Wind+Fire combo), Kakashi defended with a suiton and then Kakuzu targeted him from the blindside then. There was no support, if it was there Kakuzu overcame it in a matter of seconds and went straight for Kakashi during the attack.

I don't really agree with this notion that somehow Ino/Chouji made any remote difference in the outcome of this match, Kakashi was about to use MS to end the match if not for Naruto showing up. Moreover, Kakashi wasn't able to fight to his style, he was constantly covering for Team 10 or engaging the duo offensively so these scrubs wouldn't get picked off.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 28, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Ino and Chouji were either tangling with the other mask


Then how Kakashi outnumbered in the first place ? And Shikamaru is the one who take Hidan from Kakashi


Ryuzaki said:


> Kakuzu targeted him from the blindside then





Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi wasn't able to fight to his style


I see lot of execuses. You maybe right but ıf Kakashi that great (able to take Tsunade mid diff) he shouldnt be pressured that much or cornered twice.. But he aint.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 28, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Then how Kakashi outnumbered in the first place ? And Shikamaru is the one who take Hidan from Kakashi


Wind/Fire Mask's combo attack happens as Ino and Chouji are just gawking at Kakashi, which then Kakashi defends w/his suiton (now that's a 2 vs. 1 situation already) and . That in short is a 3 vs. 1, so I'd say he's out-numbered for sure, especially since Chouji and Ino weren't doing shit the entire time. He even  that he likely would have ended up using Kamui to pull them out their last predicament, had Naruto not shown up.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> I see lot of execuses. You maybe right but ıf Kakashi that great (able to take Tsunade mid diff) he shouldnt be pressured that much or cornered twice.. But he aint.


Be that as it may, he was baby-sitting Team 10 from the get-go, stepping in and neutralizing Gian, you don't think that a double Raikiri would have been useful elsewhere? Moreover, Kakashi's style was stated to be clone feint and figuring out their powers, something he couldn't use her at all because again he was on the defensive here. Otherwise, this match would have gone just like . So to say that he was fighting just like he would any other day is a misconception.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 28, 2017)

@Ryuzaki Still there aint a luxury like he is get right conditions at any fight. With this logic even Asuma can be considered as Kakashi's level.. Cuz he was try to protect others and then even sacrifice himself for grand knowledge.. He wouldnt fight his own style. Hidan and his immortal ritual renders his cqc skills. 

People not always get in right spot in battles. And it happened a lot for Kakashi. So he is not gonna mid diff Tsunade. And Kakuzu used same tendrill attack also in front of Kakashi and still couldnt react so that "blindside" thing aint efficient for this argument.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 28, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> @Ryuzaki Still there aint a luxury like he is get right conditions at any fight. With this logic even Asuma can be considered as Kakashi's level.. Cuz he was try to protect others and then even sacrifice himself for grand knowledge.. He wouldnt fight his own style. Hidan and his immortal ritual renders his cqc skills.
> 
> People not always get in right spot in battles. And it happened a lot for Kakashi. So he is not gonna mid diff Tsunade. And Kakuzu used same tendrill attack also in front of Kakashi and still couldnt react so that "blindside" thing aint efficient for this argument.


The argument here is getting off track, let me bring it back by saying that I'm sticking to my original point where he is going to mid-diff Tsunade because she has no diversity or versatility in her approach to fighting. Kakashi's main objective is to get in close and take them out and that's the only way Tsunade knows how to fight. Kakashi's performance against Hidan/Kakuzu is something that Tsunade cannot replicate, she'd have to get hit by those attacks and heal herself and even then she's not walking away as the victor.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 28, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Hidan/Kakuzu is something that Tsunade cannot replicate


Cuz she dont need to avoid most of their attack she can clearly over power them.. And Kaksahi cannot replicate this.. This isnt about her lack of skills is about different styles. 


Ryuzaki said:


> then she's not walking away as the victor.


Why ? Which attack of their gonna kill her ? Dont say gian.. Gian is a two linearl lightning beam.. It should pierce but not gonna kill her.. Gian and Raikiri's not even close to Yasaka Magatama, Couples of Susano Swords and getting be bisected .

Except kamui Kakashi's all destructive arsenal is base on cqc. And cqc is not the place that Kakashi wanna be in against a monster like Tsunade. 

Versatility is good of course, thats why we can argue this battle or some people can say "Kakashi win this".. W/o his versatility he aint got nothing on Tsunade. 

But his versatility is not save him against Zabuza, Kakuzu, Sasuke and Orochimaru. He is versatile but his stamina and durability aint good enough to established at all specialities.. In the end he is cqc fighter too. He is not Jiraiya, Hiruzen, Hashirama like versatile. 

And when you able to get over it. You dont need to versatility. 

Madara didnt beat gokage with versatility in the end he just overpowered. Sasuke aint beat Danzo with versatility. He just defend himself with Susano and attacked with susano.

Versatiliy is one of the most important things. I also belivie that.. But in this match.. Kakashi's versatility over Tsunade aint bring anything significant. Except Kamui or any very lucky head off slash. He cant bring her down and that renders versatility.

kakashi also more versatile than A3, Tobirama, Ônoki but ı cant see he is gonna take out them too ..

A3 can overpower, Tobirama can avoid all and outlast or finish with blitz, Ônoki is out range and far more experienced. 

Tsunade has outlasting option, owerpowering option, physically beatin option, neruon system blocking option and Katsuyu as heavy hitter. 

Kakashi has more assets than Tsunade but less option then Tsunade too. Headshot or All Body Kamui and these 2 are far harder then tsunade's options in terms of capability.

So Kakashi is maybe more versatile when its comes to numbers of different assets
But Tsunade has more versatilty in terms of finishing. Cuz she can overpower. She do that against dudes like Madara and Pain.. So kakashi is out of her concept of surviving skills. 


Couples of Kusanagi Slashes, Shattered Lungs -> survived as Base healed with Sozo Saizei
Giving her chakra to katsuyu healing thousands of peope (Kakashi die in the same war cuz of chakra draning) and tanking CST -> survived as Base healed with heavy rest
Susano Swords, Dense Katons, Yasaka Magata-> Survived and heald with Byakugo 
Getting Bisected and saving other 4 Kage -> Base, be bisected Tsunade.

So we all know Tsunade's one clear hit = Kakashi's death.
But Kakashi's dozens of hits wouldnt kill her.. Unless all body kamui shot or head slash move.. And these are not happened by Kakashi before against  a mobile kage level opponent.

Kakashi has more assets but still Tsunade has more options . This is the conflict. And he is not gonna mid diff.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 28, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Cuz she dont need to avoid most of their attack she can clearly over power them.. And Kaksahi cannot replicate this.. This isnt about her lack of skills is about different styles.
> 
> Why ? Which attack of their gonna kill her ? Dont say gian.. Gian is a two linearl lightning beam.. It should pierce but not gonna kill her.. Gian and Raikiri's not even close to Yasaka Magatama, Couples of Susano Swords and getting be bisected .
> 
> ...


Gian can be increased to multiple spears and as we already know bisecting her is the key to victory.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 28, 2017)

Jad said:


> I'm a bit busy. Will respond later fully. But Gai ALWAYS fights Sharingan users without looking in their eyes. It was always implied as such. So anytime Gai fought a Sharingan user it was him looking at their feet.


 How does this counter my post?



> Also as per your last post. Tsunade has NEVER in a million years ever been as fast or faster than Base Gai. That is astronomically wrong. Your supposed feats don't put her above Gai at all.


 What feat does base Guy have that's superior to keeping up with Onoki's flight speed? Taking on five legged Humanoid Susanoo Wood Clones and not getting bisected or decapitated and managing to overwhelm one? Crossing a long distance and deflecting Madara's Fire Release jutsu while Mei is still forming one hand seal and the other Kage are standing there looking dumbfounded?



> "Unless vital body parts are affected or very deep wounds are present, she can restore her body back to the state of absolute 'uninjuredness'. " This quote from the German DB 4 translation interests me.


I noticed that too, but it's obviously wrong so the translation may not be the best. The last line seems to be present in all translations though.



Ryuzaki said:


> They out-numbered him and kept him on the defensive as well as out of range (i.e. when was Kakashi ever face to face with either of them)? Tsunade is not able to replicate these feats as she cannot out-number him, keep him on the defensive and/or out of range since she is a poor user of ninjutsu, slower and specializes in CQC.


 Kakashi has looked at Kakuzu and Hidan plenty of times during their fight, and he did not opt to use Genjutsu: Sharingan even once.




> All paths are dead and do not have brain activity, rather Nagato just uses them for their eyes and techniques.


 They can still be caught in genjutsu as we saw when Jiraiya fought them.




> Are you talking about when Kakashi fought against Sasuke in Part 1?


 I'm not talking about at the bridge after the Five Kage Summit.




> Kakashi fought Obito in genjutsu for an extensive period of time in Kamui, I'd say he's accustomed to using genjutsu at least after his War Arc feats. Tsunade has only ever shown to be a taijutsu user outside of her medical ninjutsu however, she doesn't have the speed that Gai does so it's really difficult for me to believe that someone significantly slower than Gai would somehow not only move too fast for Kakashi to react to on the regular (despite Kakashi being faster than her) but yet somehow manages to move faster than the sharingan precognition on top of that.


 Kakashi did that because Obito started doing it first, it's still not Kakashi's go-to strategy. Also, you basically skipped my post that already addressed most of this, can you quote it and respond to it so I don't need to repeat myself?

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## Ryuzaki (Mar 28, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Kakashi has looked at Kakuzu and Hidan plenty of times during their fight, and he did not opt to use Genjutsu: Sharingan even once.


The only time he looked at Kakuzu was when he diffused Gian and before he could properly even gather himself, they got hit with Zukoku. Afterwards he was kept at a distance by either the masks and he opted to use his Kamui when Kakuzu would have made it in closer. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> They can still be caught in genjutsu as we saw when Jiraiya fought them.


Jiraiya's genjutsu is different, it's a paralyzing genjutsu that works through sound, visual genjutsu we know requires the person to be alive and have chakra since the chakra is being transmitted from Pain's receiver, how is one supposed to cast a genjutsu when there is nothing there to begin with? 



Isaiah13000 said:


> I'm not talking about at the bridge after the Five Kage Summit.


Not sure what you mean, elaborate


Isaiah13000 said:


> Kakashi did that because Obito started doing it first, it's still not Kakashi's go-to strategy. Also, you basically skipped my post that already addressed most of this, can you quote it and respond to it so I don't need to repeat myself?


I don't know which post you are referring to?


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## Jad (Mar 28, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> What feat does base Guy have that's superior to keeping up with Onoki's flight speed? Taking on five legged Humanoid Susanoo Wood Clones and not getting bisected or decapitated and managing to overwhelm one? Crossing a long distance and deflecting Madara's Fire Release jutsu while Mei is still forming one hand seal and the other Kage are standing there looking dumbfounded?
> 
> I noticed that too, but it's obviously wrong so the translation may not be the best. The last line seems to be present in all translations though.
> 
> ...



You just don't like the translation because it proves Tsunade regen has a weakness. What is the official english translation say?

-----

Skip to Base Gai's Speed section in the quote:



Jad said:


> *Speed & Reflexes*
> 
> Jiraiya actually doesn't have many base speed feats that I know of, nor any statements to hype him in the area. His fight with Pain also did not illustrate this. With that said, Jiraiya's boost in speed while in Hermit Mode was jumping off a wall [x] with Odama Rasengan in his palm and hitting Preta Path. The thing is Preta Path reacted, he had his hands by his sides in this panel [x] from such a close distance, to countering moment later with his arms up in the next panel. His CQC speed is also easily countered in this panel [] with Human path easily blocking an attack using shared vision. True he blinded him with a ferocious kick when the Path ran at him []. But this 'speed' became diluted and manageable straight after, as evident to my references above from two different paths reacting to him easily. My conclusion being that Pain got used to his speed after his first encounter.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Veracity (Mar 28, 2017)

Why does that translation even matter? It's been *blatantly* proven wrong twice in the manga. The first time when Tsuande said that SS heals limbs and the second when Tsuande used basic healing + Katsuyu to reattach her lower half.

And that's ignoring all the other times where tsuande clearly had injured organs; against Kabuto, Oro and Madara.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## FlamingRain (Mar 28, 2017)

Yeah, that translation wasn't even official was it?

The english translations (manga, databook 2, Turrin translation of databook 4 at least) all disagree with it anyway.

Common sense and feats disagree with it. The reason Tsunade developed Sozo Saisei was that she couldn't heal a kidney that had been outright obliterated, so the point of it has always been the complete recovery of vital body parts. Kusanagi going through the front of her chest and out the other where her heart would be, Susano'o going through her stomach and out of her back, and two Susano'o blades nearly the width of her waist skewering her at once are each "very deep wounds" that affect vital parts, yet Tsunade already regenerated from those injuries.

Databook 4:



> Byakogou Sousou Saisei
> 
> For several years using the highest most precise chakra control, a fixed amount is stored in the Byakugou seal. The chakra is usually put to use to regenerate the body through the Ninjutsu technique "Sousou Saisei", the combination results in the ultimate regeneration Jutsu.
> 
> ...

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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 28, 2017)

I just gonna leave this here:



By Kishi's own standards, no the swords did not cut through her spine and she did not magically regenerate through that.


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## Veracity (Mar 28, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> I just gonna leave this here:
> 
> 
> 
> By Kishi's own standards, no the swords did not cut through her spine and she did not magically regenerate through that.


his line of attack was inscrutable

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 28, 2017)

Veracity said:


> This is no different than what Haku did against Sasuke



This is no different than what Haku did against Sasuke     

So what is your panel trying to prove? All I see is Tsunade going limp and for all practical purposes becoming dead weight for a whole chapter. You still think that's not enough for a Kakashi to come in and finish her?

That's if the clone doesn't do it first of course since it would have the same speed and cqc ability as the original. Clone goes for a suicidal double kill move against Tsunade in which she get's impaled in the head and the clone gets destroyed by her but it wouldn't matter at that point.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 28, 2017)

Are you considering how Tsunade's waist was twisted in that panel?

Also, Tsunade said she was waiting in order to catch Madara off-guard.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Veracity (Mar 28, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Link removed
> 
> So what is your panel trying to prove? All I see is Tsunade going limp and for all practical purposes becoming dead weight for a whole chapter. You still think that's not enough for a Kakashi to come in and finish her?
> 
> That's if the clone doesn't do it first of course since it would have the same speed and cqc ability as the original. Clone goes for a suicidal double kill move against Tsunade in which she get's impaled in the head and the clone gets destroyed by her but it wouldn't matter at that point.


Flaming Rain answered it lol. Tsuande has dealt with that level of pain before on panel chapters after. She was surprised and used the attack to open an assault on Madara.

That panel proves that the Sussano sword went right through her spinal cord which is what you were trying to disprove.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 28, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Flaming Rain answered it lol. Tsuande has dealt with that level of pain before on panel chapters after. She was surprised and used the attack to open an assault on Madara.



She got KO and she didn't recover right away. Call it "surprised" all you want but it does't chage th fact she became a bag of potatoes.

You could be immune to pain all you want and it won't matter against electricity or raikiri headshots.



> That panel proves that the Sussano sword went right through her spinal cord which is what you were trying to disprove.



Wrong, I disproved your ridiculous notion of her magically being able to move after her spine was "severed" with the double swords, which I proved wasn't the case. Then you posted that separate nrelated instance hoping to prove something.


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## Veracity (Mar 28, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> She got KO and she didn't recover right away. Call it "surprised" all you want but it does't chage th fact she became a bag of potatoes.
> 
> You could be immune to pain all you want and it won't matter against electricity or raikiri headshots.
> 
> ...



What are you talking about? She didn't get KO'd. That entire act was on purpose so that she could create an opening to attack Madara. Which was a statement you just completely ignored. It would make no sense for that to KO her and then later (when she's even exhausted) be fine with 2 Sussano swords in her gut.

Bruh... I know you know what's going here don't act like the panel I presented was useless. It's literally a panel showing Tsuande with her spinal cord severed by a sword being able to attack Madara. Don't bring up the Byakago argument, because( again for the 3rd time) Tsuande can't regenerate those severed nerve cells until *after* the Sussano sword is out.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 29, 2017)

Veracity said:


> What are you talking about? She didn't get KO'd. That entire act was on purpose so that she could create an opening to attack Madara. Which was a statement you just completely ignored. It would make no sense for that to KO her and then later (when she's even exhausted) be fine with 2 Sussano swords in her gut.



So she planned getting hit by the swords too?

Or more realistically, after recovering from the initial shock of the attack, she used the fact that she wouldn't die by that injury to surprise him?



> Bruh... I know you know what's going here don't act like the panel I presented was useless. It's literally a panel showing Tsuande with her spinal cord severed by a sword being able to attack Madara. Don't bring up the Byakago argument, because( again for the 3rd time) Tsuande can't regenerate those severed nerve cells until *after* the Sussano sword is out.



2 things that counter this notion:

1- There is nothing to indicate the sword went right through her spine, it could have gone right next to it. Just like the panels with the double swords were awkwardly drawn and later it's shown that the swords never cut her spine.

2-Even if it did severe it, it's not high enough to paralyze her arms, he would need to paralyze vertebrae c7 or above, meaning around shoulder level. So her using her arms to break the sword does nothing to prove she can get around paralysis.

So you have nothing here. Tsunade can't magically get around a spine injury or paralysis, sadly.

You originally tried using this panel Link removed while conveniently ignoring the panel right under it showing she received no spinal injury in fact, very sneaky in fact


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## Veracity (Mar 29, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> So she planned getting hit by the swords too?
> 
> Or more realistically, after recovering from the initial shock of the attack, she used the fact that she wouldn't die by that injury to surprise him?
> 
> ...



She didn't plan to get hit by the sword no. But when she did, she was only a sack of potatoes because she was creating an open to hit Madara as per her own words. If Tsunade really was stunned every time she got stabbed, then she would have been gang raped against the Clones. Plus even if you are going to push the notion that she was stunned then you wouldn't be able to calculate a time frame sense you basically are just guessing she was. I'm going to ignore the guess and believe she wasn't stunned and was creating opening; which is actually a canonical statement and coincides with her feats later.

1) Yes there is. Unlike the panel before, there is no doubt or speculation as to where the swords punctured. If you deny that it severed the spinal cord then you're literally being dishonest. Do I need to post an anatomical scan of the human body?

2) Prove that she would need to have C7 punctured to have her arms paralyzed. Her legs also didn't seem to be paralyzed at all, and if she's able to regain movement of her legs between the time it takes Yasaka to land and for her to hit that boulder than Byakago's regeneration rate is fast enough to negate Raiton Bunshin all together... or we could consider the fact that Byakago didn't kick in until after Tsuande stood up from being slammed into the rock, meaning she had movement of her legs all along...

You're honestly ignoring the position she was in when she hit that sussano clone down. She was twisted and at an awkward angle. Point is, there is speculation on whether or not it did hit her spine, hence the reason I posted a clear scan where there's no speculation at all.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 29, 2017)

Veracity said:


> She didn't plan to get hit by the sword no. But when she did, she was only a sack of potatoes because she was creating an open to hit Madara as per her own words. If Tsunade really was stunned every time she got stabbed, then she would have been gang raped against the Clones. Plus even if you are going to push the notion that she was stunned then you wouldn't be able to calculate a time frame sense you basically are just guessing she was. I'm going to ignore the guess and believe she wasn't stunned and was creating opening; which is actually a canonical statement and coincides with her feats later.



I think it's clear that depending on the gravity of the wound she could recover faster.



> 1) Yes there is. Unlike the panel before, there is no doubt or speculation as to where the swords punctured. If you deny that it severed the spinal cord then you're literally being dishonest. Do I need to post an anatomical scan of the human body?



There is no concrete proof. Seriously, just look at it. It punctures her right in the gut and goes through her back. It can do that without severing it, specially considering that the sword is aimed vertically.



> 2) Prove that she would need to have C7 punctured to have her arms paralyzed. Her legs also didn't seem to be paralyzed at all, and if she's able to regain movement of her legs between the time it takes Yasaka to land and for her to hit that boulder than Byakago's regeneration rate is fast enough to negate Raiton Bunshin all together... or we could consider the fact that Byakago didn't kick in until after Tsuande stood up from being slammed into the rock, meaning she had movement of her legs all along...



Oh I don't need to prove it, it's just basic science. Yeah because she actually did anything with her legs except just hang there?

I and others have gone over the raiton bunshin many times already. She can't magically negate that paralysis, there is no damage to heal.

Y





> ou're honestly ignoring the position she was in when she hit that sussano clone down. She was twisted and at an awkward angle. Point is, there is speculation on whether or not it did hit her spine, hence the reason I posted a clear scan where there's no speculation at all.



It's not clear just like the other double sword panel you tried to show down our throats. I won't say that it did or did not happen.

But what I am saying is that either way, that wound wouldn't have prevented her from moving her arms so there is nothing to see here.

*Sadly I have failed to see some sort of proof of Tsunade being able to magically make use of her legs with a severed spine or anything that indicates her being able to absorb/negate Raiton so this is where this back and forth posting nonsense ends.*

Food for thought. If Tsunade was able to do so, maybe she could have walked her legs over to her torso in this instance for example:


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 29, 2017)

@Crimson Flam3s 
Did you really compared Iruka's sufficial flat jacket durability feat with byakugo healing one page ago ? Maan.

And about your final poster sending that image not work for you cuz in the end she was able to call pretty big katsuyu and able to save 4 kage and katsuyu admits to Orochimaru she use tsunade's chakra and life force too. So thats show her ressillience in base.

And she is in that condition no cuz she cant heal it cuz she is exhausted. She instantly healed her torso when she take support from Karin as new chakra source. 

So even this pic work for @Veracity not you man. with my respect.

Reactions: Like 1


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## FlamingRain (Mar 29, 2017)

The Kusanagi probably pierced Tsunade's spine in part 1, too. It went right through the middle of her chest and out her back.

Why are we even talking about Kakashi stunning Tsunade, though? Tsunade could avoid the lightning doppelganger exploding on her with cautionary use of either Shosen or Ranshinsho. The doppelganger doesn't electrocute until it pops, and neither of those Jutsu would pop the doppelganger. If she happened to hit the real Kakashi then she wins anyway, so from her perspective it would make sense.

Also, did anybody else notice that the arms and feet of the Susano'o Tsunade hit were facing her? Did she knock its head around backwards or did Kishi goof? I had thought she hit it from behind.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santoryu (Mar 29, 2017)

Even if that worked, the bunshin can burst at the user's will:


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## FlamingRain (Mar 29, 2017)

She would probably see it start sparking if Kakashi tried that, though, would she not?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Veracity (Mar 29, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> I think it's clear that depending on the gravity of the wound she could recover faster.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The gravity of the wound? The sword entered her gut and exited out her back. The wound could honestly not be any worse.

But you know exactly where the spine is located within the body and you can see that the Sussano swords punctures right between homegirls titties, which is right in line with her spinal cord. Even if you want to say that it didn't puncture her spinal cord, the sword punctured deep enough, and close enough to have caused paralyzing damage anyway.

Yeah because everyone has extensive of knowlege of the spinal cord right? I don't even think it matters, because the sword clearly punctured somewhere between T1-T8 which paralyzes the torso and legs; which clearly wasn't the case given how much of Tsuande's body she moved during that maneuver. And I've already proven that she stood up on her legs and knees after being hit, before Byakago kicked in. She would not have been able to accomplish such with paralyzed legs.

I and others have proven that a snapped spinal cord>>> the minuscule amount of damage a Raiton Bunshin deals. She doesn't need to heal anything( which is what I've said a billion times) considering she's simply resilient emough for the damage not to effect her.

It is clear because it's a close up picture unlike the other panel, you're just choosing to ignore it because it dismantles your case. But the wound would have stopped her from moving her arms and legs, but that wasn't the case was it? You also haven't proven how the wound wouldn't have stopped her from moving her arms yet..

Yeah because Tsuande can walk with two separate body pieces while low on chakra and exhausted? That isn't food for thought, that's just nonsense.

Looks like one of those agree to disagree moments considering we are seriously arguing whether or not Tsuande's spinal cord even got snapped in the first place.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UltimaDude (Mar 29, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> She would probably see it start sparking if Kakashi tried that, though, would she not?


She's not going to react to it


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## FlamingRain (Mar 29, 2017)

Why, exactly?

It has the feat of working so fast that Deva still noticed. Asura only got shocked because it had actually impaled Kakashi.


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## UltimaDude (Mar 29, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> Why, exactly?
> 
> It has the feat of working so fast that Deva still noticed. Asura only got shocked because it had actually impaled Kakashi.


Deva was literally watching the fight unfold, so of course he saw it But that doesn't mean that Tsunade will do the same, considering she would be facing Kakashi head on.

i seriously don't know why this thread is what..... *FOUR* pages? Kakashi takes this. He's far faster, more tactical, and can pull off his one-shot jutsus more successfully than Tsunade.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 29, 2017)

Tsunade would know to watch for any sparks, though, since she in all likelihood knows about the Jutsu, unlike Nagato.


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## UltimaDude (Mar 29, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade would know to watch for any sparks, though, since she in all likelihood knows about the Jutsu, unlike Nagato.


No, no she won't. Bruh, just stop.


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## Veracity (Mar 29, 2017)

UltimaDude said:


> Deva was literally watching the fight unfold, so of course he saw it But that doesn't mean that Tsunade will do the same, considering she would be facing Kakashi head on.
> 
> i seriously don't know why this thread is what..... *FOUR* pages? Kakashi takes this. He's far faster, more tactical, and can pull off his one-shot jutsus more successfully than Tsunade.


It's four pages because Kakashi isn't blatantly superior to *any* Sannin member despite all the gas you've supplied him with.


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## UltimaDude (Mar 29, 2017)

Veracity said:


> It's four pages because Kakashi isn't blatantly superior to *any* Sannin member despite all the gas you've supplied him with.


It's four pages because you Tsunade fanboys are highly overestimating what Tsunade is capable of. Somehow she heals from paralysis. Somehow she is faster than base Guy. Somehow she is better at CQC than Kakashi and Hidan. You guys keep on making ridiculous notions that only make you desperate. Tsunade is only superior to Kakashi in strength and chakra reserves. Those assets can only take you so far when not backed up with tactics, speed, etc. No one is claiming that Kakashi is overall superior than Tsunade, it's just that he simply has more of a chance to win


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## Veracity (Mar 29, 2017)

UltimaDude said:


> It's four pages because you Tsunade fanboys are highly overestimating what Tsunade is capable of. Somehow she heals from paralysis. Somehow she is faster than base Guy. Somehow she is better at CQC than Kakashi and Hidan. You guys keep on making ridiculous notions that only make you desperate. Tsunade is only superior to Kakashi in strength and chakra reserves. Those assets can only take you so far when not backed up with tactics, speed, etc. No one is claiming that Kakashi is overall superior than Tsunade, it's just that he simply has more of a chance to win



Bruh what...
• Did she not heal from having a severed spinal cord? Yes or no?
• Do Kakashi and Hidan have 5's in taijustu? Do they have 5's in strength? Do they have decades of experience? Do they have Tsuande's stamina or regeneration? No to all of that. She is better in CQC.

Nobody is gassing up Tsuande here. Saying she has a chance to beat Kakashi isn't crazy at all. You can think Kakashi wins all you want, but saying Tsuande doesn't have a chance is dishonest. Kakashi is not necessarily above the Sannin level at all, therefore 4 pages of debating seems completely normal.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 29, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> The only time he looked at Kakuzu was when he diffused Gian and before he could properly even gather himself, they got hit with Zukoku. Afterwards he was kept at a distance by either the masks and he opted to use his Kamui when Kakuzu would have made it in closer.


 He had gathered himself enough to contemplate on whether he should use Kamui or not, rather than using Genjutsu: Sharingan though, so my point still stands.




> Jiraiya's genjutsu is different, it's a paralyzing genjutsu that works through sound, visual genjutsu we know requires the person to be alive and have chakra since the chakra is being transmitted from Pain's receiver, how is one supposed to cast a genjutsu when there is nothing there to begin with?


 When was this ever stated? I don't see why it matters whether or not it's visual or auditory. Both of them affect the five senses, and affect the victim and have caused them to experience hallucinations and paralysis: which is done by manipulating the victim's chakra flow. If the Paths are susceptible to one, they're susceptible to both, and Kakashi didn't opt to use it against either of them. 




> Not sure what you mean, elaborate


 Kakashi didn't bother to use it here either.



> I don't know which post you are referring to?


 I made a post in regards to you saying that Kakashi's Sharingan will decide the battle which I disagreed with. However, I disagree with some of what I said in that post after speaking with Jad. But basically, I said that if Tsunade's taijutsu was relevant against Madara Uchiha, then it's going to be relevant against Kakashi Hatake. As even Might Guy later contradicted himself when he's shown fighting Obito Uchiha who not only has Sharingan but Kamui on top of that perfectly fine. Having a Sharingan is not that relevant in this field in late Part 2, this is clearly seen by both Tsunade and Guy's performance in taijutsu against Madara and Obito. I also pointed out the fact that the fourth databook confirms in  different (click the first "show")  that Tsunade's SoHT makes her more powerful, which would explain her performance against Madara and his Wood Clones. 



Jad said:


> You just don't like the translation because it proves Tsunade regen has a weakness. What is the official english translation say?


No. It is blatantly shown to be incorrect in the manga, and the other official English translations of the databooks contradict it as well. Simply look at @Veracity and @FlamingRain's post.


> -----
> 
> Skip to Base Gai's Speed section in the quote:


 I've actually never read any of Might Guy's databook entries before. That is some noteworthy hype and feats, with that said, I concede. However, I still do not believe the difference in speed is going to decide the outcome here for reasons I've posted above in response to Ryuzaki.

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


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## UltimaDude (Mar 29, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Bruh what...
> • Did she not heal from having a severed spinal cord? Yes or no?
> • Do Kakashi and Hidan have 5's in taijustu? Do they have 5's in strength? Do they have decades of experience? Do they have Tsuande's stamina or regeneration? No to all of that. She is better in CQC.
> 
> Nobody is gassing up Tsuande here. Saying she has a chance to beat Kakashi isn't crazy at all. You can think Kakashi wins all you want, but saying Tsuande doesn't have a chance is dishonest. Kakashi is not necessarily above the Sannin level at all, therefore 4 pages of debating seems completely normal.


*Having a severed spine is not the same as having electrical-induced paralysis. @Ryuzaki already talked about this
*So you're going to completely ignore the manga which the databook contradicts? If she is really good in taijutsu how come all she does is punch? Having to rely on vague databook stats rather than feats is ridiculous. Strength and stamina has nothing to do with who can fight better.

Kakashi doesn't need to be Sannin-level in order to easily deal with Tsunade. There are things called techniques that make up for what Kakashi. With his superior speed, intelligence, and tactics and along with Kamui and Raikiri (techniques that Kakashi can easily pull off and one-shot Tsunade with) Kakashi simply takes this. Not to mention, Kakashi has the Sharingan. Tsunade is not touching Kakashi

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## FlamingRain (Mar 29, 2017)

UltimaDude said:


> No, no she won't. Bruh, just stop.



Yeah...that is not an argument.


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## UltimaDude (Mar 29, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> Yeah...that is not an argument.


Lol, like you did any better. Give me a reason to believe that she should react.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## FlamingRain (Mar 29, 2017)

Because what I did was ask you a question, and you didn't give me any reasoning.

I think it's silly, quite frankly, to think that someone who turned Genin Sakura into someone who could anticipate offensive patterns based on finger movements from across the battlefield, who could react to Kabuto reaching for her ankle from mere inches away, and who could react to being shot out directly in front of an already advancing Madara Uchiha instead of simply bumping into him, couldn't notice some sparks coming off of a clone before it explodes when in all likelihood she has intel on the Jutsu.

Give me reason to think otherwise, because you haven't yet.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 29, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> Because what I did was ask you a question, and you didn't give me any reasoning.
> 
> I think it's silly, quite frankly, to think that someone who turned Genin Sakura into someone who could anticipate offensive patterns based on finger movements from across the battlefield, who could react to Kabuto reaching for her ankle from mere inches away, and who could react to being shot out directly in front of an already advancing Madara Uchiha instead of simply bumping into him, couldn't notice some sparks coming off of a clone before it explodes when in all likelihood she has intel on the Jutsu.
> 
> Give me reason to think otherwise, because you haven't yet.


Anticipating offensive patterns isn't the same as reacting to them when you have been duped by a clone.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 29, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> When was this ever stated? I don't see why it matters whether or not it's visual or auditory. Both of them affect the five senses, and affect the victim and have caused them to experience hallucinations and paralysis: which is done by manipulating the victim's chakra flow. If the Paths are susceptible to one, they're susceptible to both, and Kakashi didn't opt to use it against either of them.


So where does Pain's chakra flow come from? A visual genjutsu works under the assumption that the person must have a living mind to manipulate and we already know that Nagato's Paths are one-mind, his. Sound genjutsu and visual genjutsu use different mechanics as this was further explored in the Itachi/Sasuke vs. Kabuto fight. Moreover, the explanation surrounding visual genjutsu overturns your example posted here.


Isaiah13000 said:


> I made a post in regards to you saying that Kakashi's Sharingan will decide the battle which I disagreed with. However, I disagree with some of what I said in that post after speaking with Jad. But basically, I said that if Tsunade's taijutsu was relevant against Madara Uchiha, then it's going to be relevant against Kakashi Hatake. As even Might Guy later contradicted himself when he's shown fighting Obito Uchiha who not only has Sharingan but Kamui on top of that perfectly fine. Having a Sharingan is not that relevant in this field in late Part 2, this is clearly seen by both Tsunade and Guy's performance in taijutsu against Madara and Obito. I also pointed out the fact that the fourth databook confirms in  different (click the first "show")  that Tsunade's SoHT makes her more powerful, which would explain her performance against Madara and his Wood Clones.


Strength =/= Speed though, that's the point you are not getting for some reason.

Tsunade is not on Gai's level of speed, therefore despite having comparable skill level, since Gai is faster he would beat the living daylights out of her and she wouldn't be able to react. She might be stronger but she is slower than both of these guys. Kakashi was able to react to Itachi who has top tier speed rated along Gai and I've already established how Kakashi having the sharingan gave him the upper-hand against Gai, both characters who are without a question faster than Tsunade. 

There is nothing in the manga that dictates anything against this, especially since Gai was portrayed at a level beyond that of the any of the Gokage individually. Tsunade is stronger, no one here will argue that but she's not hitting Kakashi, the dude is able to react to and avoid Gai and Itachi (during Part 1).


Isaiah13000 said:


> Kakashi didn't bother to use it here either.


Kakashi isn't Itachi, he's not going to start a match off with a genjutsu feint, that's Itachi's forte. Kakashi uses genjutsu to create openings and he was more than a match for Sasuke physically that he felt he didn't need to rely on it. Then there was the off-chance Sasuke could overturn the genjtusu.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 29, 2017)

@Ryuzaki 

I'm referencing observational skills there, not reflexes.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 30, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> So where does Pain's chakra flow come from? A visual genjutsu works under the assumption that the person must have a living mind to manipulate and we already know that Nagato's Paths are one-mind, his. Sound genjutsu and visual genjutsu use different mechanics as this was further explored in the Itachi/Sasuke vs. Kabuto fight. Moreover, the explanation surrounding visual genjutsu overturns your example posted here.


 What are you talking about? Visual and auditory genjutsu can cause similar or the same effects, the only difference is based on how they're initiated. One is initiated via eye contact, and the other is initiated via hearing a certain sound. That's all, where is all of this difference in mechanics coming from? 



> Strength =/= Speed though, that's the point you are not getting for some reason.


 It simply said "one's own power rises" which could mean her becoming more powerful overall: which would mean all of her physical stats increasing. It doesn't even make sense for it to increase only her physical strength but nothing else especially when you take into account her speed feats against Madara and what increasing chakra flow has been shown to do. 



> Tsunade is not on Gai's level of speed, therefore despite having comparable skill level, since Gai is faster he would beat the living daylights out of her and she wouldn't be able to react. She might be stronger but she is slower than both of these guys. Kakashi was able to react to Itachi who has top tier speed rated along Gai and I've already established how Kakashi having the sharingan gave him the upper-hand against Gai, both characters who are without a question faster than Tsunade.


 You're putting way too much emphasis on something that doesn't matter for reasons I've already stated. If Tsunade's taijutsu, which includes her strength, speed, and reflexes were relevant against Madara and his five Susanoo wood clones then it will be relevant against Kakashi for obvious reasons. It's really that simple dude. 



> There is nothing in the manga that dictates anything against this, *especially since Gai was portrayed at a level beyond that of the any of the Gokage individually.* Tsunade is stronger, no one here will argue that but she's not hitting Kakashi, the dude is able to react to and avoid Gai and Itachi (during Part 1).


 The bold is subjective, so I wouldn't use that as an argument. If she can hit Madara and his wood clones, then she can hit Kakashi. I don't see why this is hard to comprehend. Tsunade is able to keep up with base A, and with Onoki's flight speed which is equal to Deidara's, who can fly fast enough to avoid Gaara's monstrous sand arms and Sand Binding Prison. Can manage to not get bisected or decapitated against five Susanoo wood clones, and even overwhelm one of them. Can make Madara decide to use a wood clone to avoid getting sealed, and can deflect a Fire Release technique from Madara aimed at all five Kage while Mei is busy forming one hand seal and the rest stand there doing nothing. Yet you keep insinuating she is too slow to do literally anything against Kakashi. This is the epitome of downplay, and is not an argument that should be held within high regard. 



> Kakashi isn't Itachi, he's not going to start a match off with a genjutsu feint, that's Itachi's forte. Kakashi uses genjutsu to create openings and he was more than a match for Sasuke physically that he felt he didn't need to rely on it. Then there was the off-chance Sasuke could overturn the genjtusu.


 When has Kakashi ever bothered to use genjutsu in a fight in this manga aside from against Zabuza and later against Obito who initiated it first? I'm just trying to understand why you think he will even bother to use it against her at all.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 30, 2017)

UltimaDude said:


> He's *far* faster,


Nope he isnt. Tsunade keep up with Enlightnened Ay in Madara War.. And also outpaced Base Ay and shows same reaction with V1 Ay. Also she was able to track V2 Ay and KCM Naruto when they're fight. 

So kakashi not "far" faster.. Maybe a little bit more quickier and agile. But not far faster. 

And remember Sakura vs Sasori fight.. Sakura mentioned how a medic specialist have to be skillfull at  avoiding attacks.. She is even avoid lethal attacks of Satetsu.. Only scratches. And that was BoS Sakura.. We're talking about War-Arc Tsunade ..

He is not far faster. Plus she dont need to avoid that raiton bunshin. 

Konohamaru take NAraka Path with a really tiny rasengan
Naruto take Asura path a bit bigger rasengan
Same Ashura tanked Raiton Bunshin + 2 Giant Fist + 1 Raikiri and still able to walk.

On the other hand Tsunade live after 5 Susano, Yasaka Magatama, PS and getting be bisected. And she easily cracks V3 Susanos with ease. On the other hand KCM Clone Naruto's COR wasnt enough to give a little scracth to ribcage susano.

Tsunade > V3 legged Susano > Ribcage Susano> Clone  COR > Rasengan > Asura Path >>> Raikiri & Raiton Bunshin(from kakashi)

due to feats.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 30, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> What are you talking about? Visual and auditory genjutsu can cause similar or the same effects, the only difference is based on how they're initiated. One is initiated via eye contact, and the other is initiated via hearing a certain sound. That's all, where is all of this difference in mechanics coming from?


Because Pain's bodies aren't living and the mechanics of sound-based genjutsu and ninjutsu have shown to be have a different effect on them, time and again. Visual genjutsu was specifically stated to work by manipulating someones chakra in their brain. However, sound ninjutsu and genjutsu is stated to be different.



Isaiah13000 said:


> It simply said "one's own power rises" which could mean her becoming more powerful overall: which would mean all of her physical stats increasing. It doesn't even make sense for it to increase only her physical strength but nothing else especially when you take into account her speed feats against Madara and what increasing chakra flow has been shown to do.


You're grasping at straws here, 'power' is the equivalent of strength for Tsunade, if she was faster it would have been indicated in the manga, however the exact opposite was stated by Madara.



Isaiah13000 said:


> You're putting way too much emphasis on something that doesn't matter for reasons I've already stated. If Tsunade's taijutsu, which includes her strength, speed, and reflexes were relevant against Madara and his five Susanoo wood clones then it will be relevant against Kakashi for obvious reasons. It's really that simple dude.


Grossly oversimplifying and overlooking the situation doesn't do your argument much justice, for starters, Tsunade was fighting alongside 4 other kage-level shinobi and they worked in a tandem. Moreover, Tsunade wasn't clearly avoiding Madara's attacks, she was getting smacked around and skewered through and through, because she is slower. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> The bold is subjective, so I wouldn't use that as an argument. If she can hit Madara and his wood clones, then she can hit Kakashi. I don't see why this is hard to comprehend. Tsunade is able to keep up with base A, and with Onoki's flight speed which is equal to Deidara's, who can fly fast enough to avoid Gaara's monstrous sand arms and Sand Binding Prison. Can manage to not get bisected or decapitated against five Susanoo wood clones, and even overwhelm one of them. Can make Madara decide to use a wood clone to avoid getting sealed, and can deflect a Fire Release technique from Madara aimed at all five Kage while Mei is busy forming one hand seal and the rest stand there doing nothing. Yet you keep insinuating she is too slow to do literally anything against Kakashi. This is the epitome of downplay, and is not an argument that should be held within high regard.


It's not subjective, Gai going against Edo Madara and sending him into a cliff with his Susano'o was something that the Gokage couldn't do. Then he fought a stronger overall version of Juubi Jinchuriki Madara, so by portrayal, Gai is definitively portrayed on a level above any of the Gokage individually.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 30, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Because Pain's bodies aren't living and the mechanics of sound-based genjutsu and ninjutsu have shown to be have a different effect on them, time and again. Visual genjutsu was specifically stated to work by manipulating someones chakra in their brain. However, sound ninjutsu and genjutsu is stated to be different.


 Genjutsu in general all works the same the only difference is in how they're initiated. Shikamaru says the same, and says that the one's based on sound are the most problematic due to how they are started. That's all, they all work the same.




> You're grasping at straws here, 'power' is the equivalent of strength for Tsunade, if she was faster it would have been indicated in the manga, however the exact opposite was stated by Madara.


 Madara stated that she was slower than A, that doesn't mean she didn't get faster at all. You're the one grasping at straws here, a character being stated to be "more powerful" in general usually means they're stronger overall. It doesn't solely refer to their physical strength, nor does it make sense for it to only refer to that. Even when characters say someone is "more powerful" or "one of the stronger ones" in comparison to themselves or anyone else, they mean how strong they are in general. They're not referring to their physical strength.




> Grossly oversimplifying and overlooking the situation doesn't do your argument much justice, for starters, Tsunade was fighting alongside 4 other kage-level shinobi and they worked in a tandem. Moreover, Tsunade wasn't clearly avoiding Madara's attacks, she was getting smacked around and skewered through and through, because she is slower.


 This is a common excuse that I've seen others use to downplay Tsunade as usual, this doesn't change the fact that she has demonstrated good reflexive and speed feats on her own whether you like it or not.




> It's not subjective, Gai going against Edo Madara and sending him into a cliff with his Susano'o was something that the Gokage couldn't do.


 Except for the fact that we actually seen them on-panel destroy Madara's Susanoo multiple times while Madara was focused on them, and Guy only managed to do that when Madara was distracted and not focused on him. Not to mention the fact that there is no proof it did any significant damage to Madara's Susanoo whatsoever since he was thrown off-panel. From a narrative standpoint, it also makes no sense for Guy to be capable of doing something so casually that all Five Kage working together had difficulty doing, especially considering the fact that literally no one complimented on what Guy did and praised him for it. Madara praised all of the Kage for their performance against him, he didn't praise Guy until he got the Eighth Gate. 





> Then he fought a stronger overall version of Juubi Jinchuriki Madara, so by portrayal, Gai is definitively portrayed on a level above any of the Gokage individually.


 Fighting a stronger version of a character doesn't automatically make you stronger than those who didn't, this is horrendous logic for reasons I should not have to state. Only Eighth Gate Guy is portrayed above the Five Kage, which doesn't count as Guy's usual portrayal. By this logic, Guy is portrayed above every single non-God tier character in the series. Not to mention the fact that Guy dies after using the Gate of Death, so for this to count as apart of his usual portrayal makes no sense at all.

Reactions: Like 1 | Useful 1


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## Veracity (Mar 31, 2017)

UltimaDude said:


> *Having a severed spine is not the same as having electrical-induced paralysis. @Ryuzaki already talked about this
> *So you're going to completely ignore the manga which the databook contradicts? If she is really good in taijutsu how come all she does is punch? Having to rely on vague databook stats rather than feats is ridiculous. Strength and stamina has nothing to do with who can fight better.
> 
> Kakashi doesn't need to be Sannin-level in order to easily deal with Tsunade. There are things called techniques that make up for what Kakashi. With his superior speed, intelligence, and tactics and along with Kamui and Raikiri (techniques that Kakashi can easily pull off and one-shot Tsunade with) Kakashi simply takes this. Not to mention, Kakashi has the Sharingan. Tsunade is not touching Kakashi


Right after my vacation ends, I'm getting to this.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Mar 31, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Right after my vacation ends, I'm getting to this.


You might wanna ask that frined; 

Why all things that he compiled aint worked against hidan, kakuzu, zabuza, kabuto, 7 swordsmen ?   Whom are pretty far inferior to Tsunade. 

And when sharingan = not touching happened ? 

Edo Madara>>>>>Jobbing Edo Madara >>>> War-Arc Kakashi.. And she tagged him 4 times.

Reactions: Like 1


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## FlamingRain (Mar 31, 2017)

To be fair, Madara had the Rinnegan activated there.


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## Jad (Apr 1, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Genjutsu in general all works the same the only difference is in how they're initiated. Shikamaru says the same, and says that the one's based on sound are the most problematic due to how they are started. That's all, they all work the same.
> 
> 
> Madara stated that she was slower than A, that doesn't mean she didn't get faster at all. You're the one grasping at straws here, a character being stated to be "more powerful" in general usually means they're stronger overall. It doesn't solely refer to their physical strength, nor does it make sense for it to only refer to that. Even when characters say someone is "more powerful" or "one of the stronger ones" in comparison to themselves or anyone else, they mean how strong they are in general. They're not referring to their physical strength.
> ...


Madara did compliment Gai, not directly.

Here is my response to DaVizWiz



> DaVizWiz said:
> 
> 
> > All they have is portrayal, which is, Edo Madara's play things...
> ...


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## UltimaDude (Apr 1, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Nope he isnt. Tsunade keep up with Enlightnened Ay in Madara War.. And also outpaced Base Ay and shows same reaction with V1 Ay. Also she was able to track V2 Ay and KCM Naruto when they're fight.
> 
> So kakashi not "far" faster.. Maybe a little bit more quickier and agile. But not far faster.
> 
> ...


She did not keep up with V1 Ay at all. If Tsuade had the same reactions as Ay she would not have been pierced as many times as she did. So keeping track of Ay and KCM Naruto *from afar* means she has the same reactions has them? By that stupid logic, I guess Kakashi has the same reactions as Kaguya and SPSM Naruto since he was able to keep track of Kaguya fighting off thousands of SPSM clones.

He is much quicker and more agile than Tsunade.

Yet, she was still poisoned during the fight and would've died if it weren't for the antidote that she made.

Saying Kakashi isn't much faster than Tsunade is denying the huge disparity in their speed. What part of paralysis do you not understand? It isn't a matter of damage, where you can heal from it

The rest of your argument is completely moot considering the fact that Tsunade herself is not by any means super durable and the reason why she's so tough overall is her insane regeneration and strength. Kakashi, with his superior speed, reactions, and his Sharingan, is not being touched by Tsunade, so her superior strength won't really help her. Decapitation via Raikiri or Kamui completely ends Tsunade. Without her head intact, Tsunade's body won't heal and she'll die. The thing you Tsunade apologists need to understand is the reason why she did fairly well against Edo Madara is because she was *fighting alongside with four other Kages. *If it was just her and Edo Madara, where Madara had to focus on her and her only, Madara wrecks her in a couple of minutes. Again, this is a 1v1 fight, where it's just Kakashi and Tsunade. Kakashi gets close to Tsunade and Raikiris her head off or stay afar and Kamui her head off. Kakashi wins


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## JiraiyaFlash (Apr 1, 2017)

UltimaDude said:


> Tsuade had the same reactions as Ay she would not have been pierced as many times as she did


This is about their fighting styles. And Raikage was enlighted by ônoki so he was faster than his original self even. But She is clearly blitz V1 and Base versions of him.
And remember Ay was the only one who caught in genjutsu when he separate from Ônoki. This is not happened to Tsunade.




UltimaDude said:


> So keeping track of Ay and KCM Naruto *from afar* means she has the same reactions has them? By that stupid logic


Saying words like "stupid" is easy to say.. Thats shows your quality.. I never meaned she had the same speed with V2 Ay and KCM NAruto but she can track them .. So Kakashi is not "far" faster for her. capish?




UltimaDude said:


> Saying Kakashi isn't much faster than Tsunade is denying the huge disparity in their speed. What part of paralysis do you not understand? It isn't a matter of damage, where you can heal from it


Dude all feats and both characters performances in the same arc shows us Tsunade is not "far" slower than her..

And be carefull ı never said "Tsunade faster than Kakashi" ım just oppose to "being far faster" Both char is not "far" faster than other.. The word of "far" can be use for sages, raiton armour users, gate users, S/T users, or specialities like Madara, Sasuke, Naruto, etc,etc. Kakashi is not a speedster he is not Obito, Gai, Minato, Tobirama, Raikages, Madara, Sasuke, Naruto, Hashirama, Killer Bee.

He is a dude who has problems against Zabuza & Haku even in War-Arc. A dude speedblitz by Kakuzu 2x.

He can be faster (at least in cqc) but not "far" and not good enough to make a difference.




UltimaDude said:


> is not being touched by Tsunade,


Then how Zabuza, %30 clone Itachi, Almost Blind Tattered Sasuke, Zabuza, Haku, Hidan, Kakuzu, Deva Path, Asura Path

were able to tag this man w/o any major problem ?! All of these roster is "far" faster than Tsunade !!!  You're the dude who is lazy enough to claim "tsunade not even able to touch him." But somehow my posts are moot !  Great logic man 

V1 4th Raikage tag by Suigetsu and Jugo
V2 Bee Tag By Kisame
V1 3rd Raikage tag by Temari and outsmart by Dodai
%30 Clone Kisame was so close to tag 6th Gate Gai
Konohamaru able to tag Pain
Shikamaru able to tag Hidan
Chunnins are tad Kakuzu at War-Arc

But Kakashi is soooooo damn fast a hokage level opponent not even gonna "touch" him And thats why her strength is irrelevant .. Cool story bro cool story.. You should wrote that as ff.. It would be pleased some Kakashi-fans (like me).

Write your own fanfiction and then when you heard something oppose to your ff then tell'em they're suck  Great elementary school kid logic dude.



UltimaDude said:


> *fighting alongside with four other Kages.*


Did you give me any legit and impressive fight of Kakashi w/o an support ?!

Vs Zabuza -> Naruto saved his ass
Vs Orochimaru -> Spooked out cuz he wasnt has any support.
Vs Deidara -> Naruto is the main attraction for Deidara
Vs Kakuzu & Hidan -> Team 8 as distraction and Shikamaru even take out Hidan and then all new Team 7 come to rescue when almost Kakashi gonna die
Vs  %30 Clone Itachi -> Sakura, Chiyo, Naruto and Naruto was the one who land the execution blow.
Vs Pain -> Choza & Choji & And couple of other shinobies
Vs Tobi (as an attempt) -> Yamato
Vs 7 Swordsman -> Gai, Lee, Sakura, Sai and all 20.000 shinobi
Vs Jincs -> Gai
Vs Obito -> Gai, Naruto & Bee (stronger roster than Gokage w/o Tsuande)
Vs Obito -> Obito let him to stab his heart and he was emotional against Kakashi.
Vs Madara -> All Army
Vs Kaguya -> Team 7 + Obito

So whats now are we gonna ignore all feats of Kakashi cuz he never acheived anything as solo !?! What kinda broken logic is that.




UltimaDude said:


> If it was just her and Edo Madara, where Madara had to focus on her and her only, Madara wrecks her in a couple of minutes. Again, this is a 1v1 fight, where it's just Kakashi and Tsunade.


  Edo Madara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kakashi.

So having teammates or not.. Kakashi cant replicate Madara's dominancy just cuz of they're gonna fight 1 on 1 ?!  


UltimaDude said:


> Raikiris her head off


Yeah and she is gonna watch this  5 V3 Legged Susano aint able to do that good luck to Kakashi.. If Kakashi able to cut heads with Raikiri... Why we never saw from him !?




UltimaDude said:


> Kakashi wins


In this alternative universe yeah ı think he must win  

Dominance as Edo Madara, fast as V2 raikage, Raikiri head chop with blitz !?! Yeah ıf there is a guy like that.. I also wouldnt think Tsunade gonna win against it


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 1, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Genjutsu in general all works the same the only difference is in how they're initiated. Shikamaru says the same, and says that the one's based on sound are the most problematic due to how they are started. That's all, they all work the same.


So what you're trying to tell me now is that visual genjutsu is somehow the same as sound genjutsu, despite the fact that we already have an overwhelming amount of information in the manga countering this claim? 



Isaiah13000 said:


> Madara stated that she was slower than A, that doesn't mean she didn't get faster at all. You're the one grasping at straws here, a character being stated to be "more powerful" in general usually means they're stronger overall. It doesn't solely refer to their physical strength, nor does it make sense for it to only refer to that. Even when characters say someone is "more powerful" or "one of the stronger ones" in comparison to themselves or anyone else, they mean how strong they are in general. They're not referring to their physical strength.


I would like proof of where she became 'faster' because so far the manga has dictated that the kages couldn't fight Madara 1 vs. 1, that they had to fight him 5 vs. 1 and not only that he said he wasn't even taking them seriously the entire time. He specifically states so in that scene you Tsunade fans love lauding around where she punches his clone. I mean, if her reaction and speed are so great then why wasn't it mentioned? I'd easily give her the benefit of the doubt but I'm trying to maintain objectivity here because the author rated her to be in the same group as Hidan and Wind Arc Naruto in terms of speed. There was no inclination that she improved and even in her explanation of her powers it didn't state that she became faster, all that it said was she developed a work around that allows her to fight without a care in the world due to an auto-heal seal-dependent jutsu. There was no mention of her jutsu becoming more powerful or any boosts in her physical stats.




Isaiah13000 said:


> This is a common excuse that I've seen others use to downplay Tsunade as usual, this doesn't change the fact that she has demonstrated good reflexive and speed feats on her own whether you like it or not.


You can say it is downplay to avoid the issue, but the fact of the matter is it doesn't change her circumstances or the Gokage's circumstances in that scenario as I mentioned above, there numerous variables that were favoring the Gokage (e.g. Madara not taking them seriously, there being an initial 5 vs. 1 show-down). If you can varnish anything that would counter my argument I'd appreciate it, but as it stands 'calling it downplay' isn't a substitute for a counter-argument.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Except for the fact that we actually seen them on-panel destroy Madara's Susanoo multiple times while Madara was focused on them, and Guy only managed to do that when Madara was distracted and not focused on him. Not to mention the fact that there is no proof it did any significant damage to Madara's Susanoo whatsoever since he was thrown off-panel. From a narrative standpoint, it also makes no sense for Guy to be capable of doing something so casually that all Five Kage working together had difficulty doing, especially considering the fact that literally no one complimented on what Guy did and praised him for it.


So did Tsunade do that by herself or did she have help in that skirmish? From my persepctive, you are overlooking the fact that Oonoki/Raikage and that was a combined assault from the Gokage. Tsunade was surely responsible for shattering Madara's Susano'o but lets not forget that Raikage also added shearing forces  from the exact opposite side. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> Madara praised all of the Kage for their performance against him, *he didn't praise Guy until he got the Eighth Gate*.  Fighting a stronger version of a character doesn't automatically make you stronger than those who didn't, this is horrendous logic for reasons I should not have to state. Only Eighth Gate Guy is portrayed above the Five Kage, which doesn't count as Guy's usual portrayal. By this logic, Guy is portrayed above every single non-God tier character in the series. Not to mention the fact that Guy dies after using the Gate of Death, so for this to count as apart of his usual portrayal makes no sense at all.


I'm not sure where you got the idea that he didn't, but why don't you do both of us favor, for the sake of the discussion and reread the War Arc before we proceed any further because Gai was definitively portrayed above the Gokage, prior to the 8th Gate. If you need more proof, then his clash pushing back JJ Madara would be more than enough.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 1, 2017)

Jad said:


> Madara did compliment Gai, not directly.
> 
> Here is my response to DaVizWiz


 Alright.



> You know what's so great about that scene:
> 
> 
> 1. Madara a chapter before stated he was going to get SERIOUS from now on.


 He was referring to the Wood Dragon Technique.



> 2. Unleashed the Mokuton dragon and literally had the upperhand on Naruto and Bee.


 It's specifically meant to bind the power of tailed beasts.



> 3. Then Gai uses Hirudora, leaves Madara out of the picture for an entire chapter.


 While he was distracted by Naruto.



> 4. Then when the Juubi was unleashed Madara stated "I wanted to capture them before releasing the Juubi. But these guys WERE GOOD."


 I'm certain he was referring to Naruto and Killer B, but even if he was referring to guy he has praised the Five Kage as well.



> 5. The only person to prevent Madara when he GOT FINALLY SERIOUS was Gai because for that moment he had the Kyuubi and Hachibi in absorption.


 Guy sent a distracted Madara flying, the Five Kage destroyed the Susanoo of a Madara who was focused on them several times. That does not portray Guy as individually above the Five Kage at all.




> So in fact Madara also complimented Gai as well.


Addressed above.



Ryuzaki said:


> So what you're trying to tell me now is that visual genjutsu is somehow the same as sound genjutsu, despite the fact that we already have an overwhelming amount of information in the manga countering this claim?


 I have literally linked you manga scans saying they all work the same.




> I would like proof of where she became 'faster' because so far the manga has dictated that the kages couldn't fight Madara 1 vs. 1, that they had to fight him 5 vs. 1 and not only that he said he wasn't even taking them seriously the entire time. He specifically states so in that scene you Tsunade fans love lauding around where she punches his clone. I mean, if her reaction and speed are so great then why wasn't it mentioned? I'd easily give her the benefit of the doubt but I'm trying to maintain objectivity here because the author rated her to be in the same group as Hidan and Wind Arc Naruto in terms of speed. There was no inclination that she improved and even in her explanation of her powers it didn't state that she became faster, all that it said was she developed a work around that allows her to fight without a care in the world due to an auto-heal seal-dependent jutsu. There was no mention of her jutsu becoming more powerful or any boosts in her physical stats.


It's obvious that one-on-one they couldn't take Madara, it's fact that she was illustrated as being the main one who pressured him into using the wood clone in the first place. Why would Madara even mention that, when the only time Tsunade went on the offensive is when she used the SoHT so how would Madara know how fast she is compared to her base incarnation? There's also the fact that regardless of the boost she is still much slower than V2 A, so there would be no need for Madara to mention it anyway. You're also using an outdated databook to downplay her performance against Madara, which is ridiculous. As for the explanation, look no further than the manga itself when we see her and Sakura making Onoki and Obito's techniques more powerful, and the fourth databook stating that the user's power rises when it's utilized.





> You can say it is downplay to avoid the issue, but the fact of the matter is it doesn't change her circumstances or the Gokage's circumstances in that scenario as I mentioned above, there numerous variables that were favoring the Gokage (e.g. Madara not taking them seriously, there being an initial 5 vs. 1 show-down). If you can varnish anything that would counter my argument I'd appreciate it, but as it stands 'calling it downplay' isn't a substitute for a counter-argument.


 The fact is you're completely ignoring all of her speed features in the battle, Madara not going all-out is irrelevant. Her having the assistance of the other Kage doesn't change what she did on her own, this is the problem with your argument. I have provided a list of her feats before, and you completely disregarded it. So yes, when someone provides you time and time again with notable speed features and all you say is "that was a joint effort" which could only be executed if she had the speed required to join the effort the first place then yes you're downplaying.



> So did Tsunade do that by herself or did she have help in that skirmish? From my persepctive, you are overlooking the fact that Oonoki/Raikage and that was a combined assault from the Gokage. Tsunade was surely responsible for shattering Madara's Susano'o but lets not forget that Raikage also added shearing forces  from the exact opposite side.


 I know they all worked together to do it, but they're actually illustrated doing it and being directly praised for it by Madara.




> I'm not sure where you got the idea that he didn't, but why don't you do both of us favor, for the sake of the discussion and reread the War Arc before we proceed any further because Gai was definitively portrayed above the Gokage, prior to the 8th Gate. *If you need more proof, then his clash pushing back JJ Madara would be more than enough.*


 I concede on the first sentence, Madara did praise him. I also did reread that by the way, and as for your last line. Guy's performance against TTJ Madara is an illogical outlier, that contradicts the entire manga. If we value this feat, Guy is fast enough to blitz and one-shot Minato, Tobirama, KM Naruto, and V2 A who have all been portrayed as much faster than he is (and the first three much stronger) in the manga and databooks. Hell, he can blitz and one-shot every non-God tier character in the whole manga with that feat. Guy is depicted as being exhausted and barely able to stand before that, then all of a sudden he is at full strength and can use the Gates casually. Guy also used the Seventh Gate and used Daytime Tiger at point blank range, and got hit by it directly himself. Yet, was unharmed, despite Kisame Hoshigaki who was hyped up on Killer B and Gyuki's chakras being left in critical condition from it. There was so much bullshit surrounding this instance that it should not be taken seriously by anyone. The War Arc was the most inconsistent and illogical of all of the arcs in the manga, it had a plethora of plot holes, asspulls, and inconsistencies. That is simply one of them, and should be treated as such.

It's like taking Sakura dodging Kaguya's chakra arms seriously, and being able to tag Kaguya. Or Kakashi and Guy being able to resist the gravity of Kaguya's gravity dimension while Kaguya herself, SPSM Naruto, and Rinnegan Sasuke all can't move. I, nor should anyone else, value complete and utter bullshit on this level. If you choose to, that is fine, but if you do then we can end this discussion right now because I will not bother further arguing with you about it. As it's simply an attempt at wanking Guy and portraying him on a level that he is not depicted at.

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