# Hidan Vs SRA Gaara



## Axiom (Aug 18, 2013)

Distance: 40 Meters
Location: Gaara Vs Kimi
Mindset: IC
Knowledge: None

What say you, BD'ers?


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## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

At that point in the story Gaara was susceptible to fast taijutsu. Hidan could go toe to toe with Kakashi, so he easily is able to draw blood, at that point the fight is over.


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## Veracity (Aug 18, 2013)

Hidan has too much of a speed advantage.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 18, 2013)

With Sand Tsunami, I don't know.

 Without it, Hidan can draw blood and it'll be over. His scythe will cut through Gaara's sand armor.


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## Icegaze (Aug 18, 2013)

so if this was current gaara vs hidan wont everyone say gaara stomps?
what has changed? how do we know his sand has gotten that much faster? was this said or stated? 
how do we know gaara even has more chakra?? he lost the ichibi

Hidan cannot avoid sand tsunami. How does he avoid it? by using akatsuki level jump?? 

hidan was able to go toe to toe with kakashi who admitted he was pushing it after using 4 raikiri's so kakashi was clearly tired and fighting defensively because of hidan ability. All hidan need to is scratch you to win. HOw does hidan scratch gaara through his sand armor?? kimi bones didnt even scratch gaara despite kimi cs2 bones being>>>>>>>hidan scythe


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## Mithos (Aug 18, 2013)

Someone actually thinks an Akatsuki member is going to lose to SRA Gaara?


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## Icegaze (Aug 18, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Someone actually thinks an Akatsuki member is going to lose to SRA Gaara?



being akatsuki doesnt help him get gaara blood or make him faster than kimimaro 

people say hidan is fast he kept up with kakashi. Who said kimimaro couldnt do the same? who said lee couldnt do the same then. is there any proof??? 

DB stats therefore kishi puts kimimaro speed a whole tier above hidan's


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## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Someone actually thinks an Akatsuki member is going to lose to SRA Gaara?



I will give you two guesses who it is!



Icegaze said:


> being akatsuki doesnt help him get gaara blood or make him faster than kimimaro
> 
> people say hidan is fast he kept up with kakashi. Who said kimimaro couldnt do the same? who said lee couldnt do the same then. is there any proof???
> 
> DB stats therefore kishi puts kimimaro speed a whole tier above hidan's


Being in the Akatsuki makes you an S class shinobi.
Haven't you yourself in fact said DB's aren't reliable sources.


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## Icegaze (Aug 18, 2013)

no need to guess i do. because nothing suggests hidan can 

fail logic people apply here

hidan is fast he kept up with kakashi. since when was kakashi much faster than genin lee?? or kimimaro??

did kakashi blitz any of them? genin lee speed was impressive and has always been impressive. Gaara hadnt even been touched by jounin till he fought genin lee.  Who said hidan was faster than sasuke during the chunin exam? 

also people please answer if sand armour can tank cs2 bones and 5th gate lee how does hidan scythe injure gaara?

if all jounin are faster than genin shoudl we also believe that naruto a genin is slower than Mei?

genin is a rank it doesnt necessarily determine how strong you are. It just means you are starting. 

itachi at 13 was stronger than orochimaru. People should remember that 

gaara as a genin was stronger than baki.


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## Veracity (Aug 18, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> so if this was current gaara vs hidan wont everyone say gaara stomps?
> what has changed? how do we know his sand has gotten that much faster? was this said or stated?
> how do we know gaara even has more chakra?? he lost the ichibi
> 
> ...



Current Gaara kept up with Kage Summit Sasuke, v1 Ay, and Sasukes Enton. He also went toe to toe with a powerful Akatsuki member, point blank saved an entire villege, defeated his father(Kage) in literally moments, and was fighting 5 Sussano clones simultaneously. 

The difference between PTS Gaara and War-Arc Gaara is astonishing.


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## Icegaze (Aug 18, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Current Gaara kept up with Kage Summit Sasuke, v1 Ay, and Sasukes Enton. He also went toe to toe with a powerful Akatsuki member, point blank saved an entire villege, defeated his father(Kage) in literally moments, and was fighting 5 Sussano clones simultaneously.
> 
> The difference between PTS Gaara and War-Arc Gaara is astonishing.



who said PTS gaara couldnt keep up with V1 A, sasuke etc 
was it stated somewhere??? 

your argument is dumb this is what you sound like

hirudora is powerful it damaged kisame 
kisame is a tank her survived hirudora 

 

jugo with no actual battle skill reacted to V1 Ei, even asuma can react to V1 Ei

he defeated his father because of edo tensei emotional BS. also who said his father was kage because he was strong?? he could make gold for god sake

Yes gaara fought 5 clones simultaneous, good for him. those clones far exceed hidan. 

current gaara vs hidan wont even last a page everyone would say gaara murder stomps. 

what stops SRA gaara from levitating and simply burning hidan??

prove hidan is faster than kimimaro


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## Samehadaman (Aug 18, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> what has changed? how do we know his sand has gotten that much faster? was this said or stated?



Kid Gaara's sand was challenged by two chuunin kids, Lee and Sasuke. At that point in time nobody doubts Kakashi was miles ahead of either of those two in speed and taijutsu. In part II, Hidan managed to tangle with Kakashi in CQC.


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## Veracity (Aug 18, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> who said PTS gaara couldnt keep up with V1 A, sasuke etc
> was it stated somewhere???
> 
> your argument is dumb this is what you sound like
> ...



Your realize your probably gonna get negged like fuck from this post. 

Why do you need proof that PTS Gaara can react to Ay? Can't you just use your common sense. I'm starting to believe you don't have any. One of the fastest ninjas in the entire Naruto verse is going to have problems with PTS Gaara? 

Your under the impression that the Manga is going to blatantly say" V1 Ay is faster then PTS Gaara."
No it's not. Use your goddamn common sense. Same way everyone knows PTS Ino is slower then Minato. But the Manga has never directly said that.

If you think Jugo has no battle skill then re-read Sasuke vs KB.

His father was the KazeKage. He was Kage level.

Yes. Current Gaara would destroy Hidan. Not PTS Gaara. 

Hidan being agile and faster then Gaara

This has been proven atleast twice already, in this exact thread.


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## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> itachi at 13 was stronger than orochimaru. People should remember that
> 
> gaara as a genin was stronger than baki.



Neither of those are true.



Icegaze said:


> who said PTS gaara couldnt keep up with V1 A, sasuke etc
> was it stated somewhere???



Haha, you are just being ridiculous now.




Icegaze said:


> jugo with no actual battle skill reacted to V1 Ei, even asuma can react to V1 Ei
> 
> he defeated his father because of edo tensei emotional BS. also who said his father was kage because he was strong?? he could make gold for god sake
> 
> Yes gaara fought 5 clones simultaneous, good for him. those clones far exceed hidan.



Why are you trying to downplay Gaara's feats when you are the only one who thinks he will win here?

Current Day Gaara is a very strong Kage.  I would even put him near the top actually.
He would stomp hidan, but that is current day Gaara.   Everything about him is stronger than it was in the past!


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## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 18, 2013)

Hidan, definitely Hidan. It saddens me to see how many treat Hidan as a near fodder character, when really he's actually pretty damn good. 

 Hidan has speed, taijutsu, immortality, and his ritual all on his side. There's no way this stage of Gaara can win this.


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## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

I agree.  Hidan is low Kage level feats PLUS he is immortal PLUS his ritual is hacks.

He gets hugely downplayed and underrated for being beaten by Kakashi + Shikamaru.  Which in of itself makes no sense, because these characters are highly rated in their own regard.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 18, 2013)

Samehadaman said:


> Kid Gaara's sand was challenged by two chuunin kids, Lee and Sasuke. At that point in time nobody doubts Kakashi was miles ahead of either of those two in speed and taijutsu. In part II, Hidan managed to tangle with Kakashi in CQC.



 SRA Gaara is also stronger and can trap Hidan in a Sand Tsunami. 

 Without it, Hidan's just too quick. 

 Also, Kakashi had to really be careful about dodging Kakuzu's hearts as well.


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## Mithos (Aug 18, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> being akatsuki doesnt help him get gaara blood or make him faster than kimimaro
> 
> people say hidan is fast he kept up with kakashi. Who said kimimaro couldnt do the same? who said lee couldnt do the same then. is there any proof???
> 
> DB stats therefore kishi puts kimimaro speed a whole tier above hidan's



Even genin Lee without Gates was able to hit Gaara. Hidan will get some blood. And then Gaara is fucked. 

Hidan could avoid Asuma while dodging Shikamaru's 'shadow stitches' - he can avoid SRA Gaara's sand. 

Really this should be common sense.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2013)

If you put Hidan in Kimimaro's place, you basically have a slower, less skilled, less durable Kimimaro. When he's surprised by Gaara using the sand under his feet and is put in the sand coffin, it's over.

So yeah, SRA Gaara would definitely win from feats and how their abilities match up. Remarkably easily too. However, Hidan was intended to be much stronger by the author... 

But Kishimoto was rushed by whomever and didn't flesh out more abilities for poor, sweet, profane Hidan. Yup. Hidan was never intended to be the runt of the pack, but that's how it turned out.​


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## Mithos (Aug 18, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> If you put Hidan in Kimimaro's place, you basically have a slower, less skilled, less durable Kimimaro. When he's surprised by Gaara using the sand under his feet and is put in the sand coffin, it's over.
> 
> So yeah, SRA Gaara would definitely win from feats and how their abilities match up. Remarkably easily too. However, Hidan was intended to be much stronger by the author...
> 
> But Kishimoto was rushed by whomever and didn't flesh out more abilities for poor, sweet, profane Hidan. Yup. Hidan was never intended to be the runt of the pack, but that's how it turned out.​



Unless you believe that Hidan, with shunshin, is slower than weightless CE Lee, I don't see how Hidan is going to fail to hit Gaara. 

Hidan is more agile than Kimimarou, so I think he would actually be better at dodging the sand to be honest.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 18, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Even genin Lee without Gates was able to hit Gaara. Hidan will get some blood. And then Gaara is fucked.



 This is SRA Gaara. He's far superior to the one at the Chuunin Exams. He's able to react to even Kimimaro's moves.



> Hidan could avoid Asuma while dodging Shikamaru's 'shadow stitches' - he can avoid SRA Gaara's sand.



 Not if Gaara distracts him with jutsus and catches him with sand coffin which won't be that hard since Hidan is arrogant. Are you saying Hidan can dodge Sand Tsunami?



> Really this should be common sense.



 This is actually a debatable topic pal. I doubt even Hidan can pierce Chuunin Exam Gaara's Shukaka Shell. Hidan's not very versatile and all he has is speed, taijutsu (which is really good IMO), and his scythe which won't pierce Gaara's defenses.


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 18, 2013)

gaara wins; was the strongest in his village(the kazekage in essence) even then.

if this was insomniac, psycho, lethargic , flightless(?), kid gaara( jounin level then) from the exams hidan would have a chance

lol at hidan piercing any defense that kimi could not.


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## Veracity (Aug 18, 2013)

I did not just see a post that said Hidan was slower then Kimmi? That's the dumbest thing possible.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 18, 2013)

^ This is healthy Kimimaro though. The Kimimaro that fought Lee and Gaara was the one that wasn't supposed to move.


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## Veracity (Aug 18, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ This is healthy Kimimaro though. The Kimimaro that fought Lee and Gaara was the one that wasn't supposed to move.



That's all speculation. EDO Kimmi didn't accomplish much.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 18, 2013)

^ Same as Itachi presumably being slower than what he used to be? Kimimaro was in much worse shape.

 As for Edo Kimimaro, I have no idea. I think I recall seeing a scan of him fight Itachi and Sasuke which obviously, Edo Kimimaro won't do much.

 Don't take my word for it. I've only watched the dubbed unfortunately.


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## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> That's all speculation. EDO Kimmi didn't accomplish much.



Didn't he last all day without being sealed?


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## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I did not just see a post that said Hidan was slower then Kimmi? That's the dumbest thing possible.



Databook confirms.


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## Veracity (Aug 18, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Databook confirms.



I think we've ready had this argument.


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## Axiom (Aug 18, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ Same as Itachi presumably being slower than what he used to be? Kimimaro was in much worse shape.
> 
> As for Edo Kimimaro, I have no idea. I think I recall seeing a scan of him fight Itachi and Sasuke which obviously, Edo Kimimaro won't do much.
> 
> Don't take my word for it. I've only watched the dubbed unfortunately.



Lol.  I wouldn't want to spoil anything for you, but just trust me when I say that wasn't Kimimaro himself.

Anyway, poll results are slightly perturbing, but eh, Hidan's winning regardless.

Weightless, gateless Lee was capable of putting cracks in the sand armor, there's no way Hidan can't pierce it >.>

That aside, it's a no knowledge battle, and sand armor takes a lot of chakra out of Gaara.  Kankuro states that Gaara only uses it in desperation.  There isn't really any reason to think that Gaara would start off with either sand armor or sand grinding.

No knowledge may seem like I'm trying to tip it towards Hidan, but manga knowledge is either the same or worse for Gaara 

ALSO, I don't know why Kimi's speed matters at all.  He was literally standing still when Gaara caught him with the sand hands.  Then he got overwhelmed by Sand Tsunami, but this fight would never get to that stage.  Kimi decided to be a tard and try to fight Gaara from a range, which was hopeless, thus giving Gaara time to grind.  Hidan would immediately use his scythe to try to get blood from Gaara, and Gaara is much less likely to be able to defend that; he couldn't defend from weightless Lee or CE Sauce, and even Kimi in CS2, his slowest form, managed to knock Gaara on his ass.  Hidan's unpredictability and acrobatics which allowed him to hit Asuma while dodging Shikamaru's shadows should easily allow him to hit Gaara.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 18, 2013)

^ I believe Kabuto was also holding him if I remember correctly, but I have no idea why he was using him.

 Good god, can't wait for the anime to hurry up.


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## Axiom (Aug 18, 2013)

Dude if you're watching the dub, what is that at right now, like, episode 200?  It's gonna be over 2 years before the dub gets to where the subbed anime is currently, and even the subbed isn't at the point where Kimi appears with Itachi and Sasuke.  In that time, there's no way that everything isn't going to be spoiled for you.

So, my advice would be, if you don't wanna read the manga, at least watch the subbed anime.  That's over 100 episodes to watch : D


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## Ennoia (Aug 18, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> If you put Hidan in Kimimaro's place, you basically have a slower, less skilled, less durable Kimimaro. When he's surprised by Gaara using the sand under his feet and is put in the sand coffin, it's over.
> 
> So yeah, SRA Gaara would definitely win from feats and how their abilities match up. Remarkably easily too. However, Hidan was intended to be much stronger by the author...
> 
> But Kishimoto was rushed by whomever and didn't flesh out more abilities for poor, sweet, profane Hidan. Yup. Hidan was never intended to be the runt of the pack, but that's how it turned out.​



Pretty much this except Hidan is less intelligent. I cannot see how Hidan tags Gaara with just the abilities he has shown.


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## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Pretty much this except Hidan is less intelligent. I cannot see how Hidan tags Gaara with just the abilities he has shown.



That was straight up ass pulled.  How can you agree with that?


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## Baroxio (Aug 18, 2013)

I love how people bring up "chunin-level" when Hidan was defeated by and failed to blitz actual Chunin Shikamaru. Does Shikamaru get past Gaara's sand too? 

The fact that Hidan has to stay in one place for his ritual only makes things worse, since Gaara can capture and then bury him 200 meters below ground if he gains knowledge on immortality.

Gaara surrounds himself in a Sand Sphere. Sand Tsunami GG. The only thing preventing this from being an absolute stomp in Gaara's favor is the lack of knowledge.


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## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> I love how people bring up "chunin-level" when Hidan was defeated by and failed to blitz actual Chunin Shikamaru. Does Shikamaru get past Gaara's sand too?
> 
> The fact that Hidan has to stay in one place for his ritual only makes things worse, since Gaara can capture and then bury him 200 meters below ground if he gains knowledge on immortality.
> 
> Gaara surrounds himself in a Sand Sphere. Sand Tsunami GG. The only thing preventing this from being an absolute stomp in Gaara's favor is the lack of knowledge.


Shikamaru is low jounin level.  He dodged one attack!  That is evidence of nothing.  Lots of slower opponents dodge faster opponents.

If Hidan is conducting the ritual, then Gaara would be killing himself by burying him in deep sand.
Since Hidan doesn't die, then he would technically win, even if he can't get out.


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## Kazekage94 (Aug 18, 2013)

Gaara wins
You people obviously are ignorant.


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## Cryogonal (Aug 18, 2013)

Gaara's defenses is too much for Hidan.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 18, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Dude if you're watching the dub, what is that at right now, like, episode 200?  It's gonna be over 2 years before the dub gets to where the subbed anime is currently, and even the subbed isn't at the point where Kimi appears with Itachi and Sasuke.  In that time, there's no way that everything isn't going to be spoiled for you.
> 
> So, my advice would be, if you don't wanna read the manga, at least watch the subbed anime.  That's over 100 episodes to watch : D



 Yeah, I'm thinking about reading the manga though Dubbed is much more exciting.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 19, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yeah, I'm thinking about reading the manga though Dubbed is much more exciting.



What is the dubbed at, a bit after Pain Invasion Arc? I'd  watch the subbed and/or read the manga, as staying around Naruto Forums is asking for spoilers (assuming you don't want spoilers) and confusion in threads. Positing in a battle thread without being up to date with the manga can really bite you in the ass, it happened to me once or twice before I caught up.


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 19, 2013)

When does Hidan imply to have better Taijutsu than Kimimaro? Kimimaro is better than Hidan in every aspect lol. Oh and I don't see Hidan can prepare his ritual when Gaara keeps on using sand to pressure him.

A more single-minded Hidan fail to bypass Sand shield and Sand armor to take Gaara's blood, Gaara simply floods him with Sand Tsunami or buries him under 200m lol.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 19, 2013)

Thanks. Will read the manga after watching the 2 new episodes of Shippuden. 

 ^ Agreed with this, but I don't think it would be that easily unless he uses Sand Tsunami right off the bat.


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## Stermor (Aug 19, 2013)

lee was capable of moving faster then his sand shield.. sasuke had similar speed to lee.. pre skip kakashi blitzed sasuke casually.. 

pts kakashi is faster then pre skip by a decent margin.. 

hidan kept up with pts kakashi pretty easily... 

so gaara is going to get blitzed..

anyway using kimi to hype sra gaara doesn't work.. since lee was still faster then him..


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## Rob (Aug 19, 2013)

SRA?


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## Ennoia (Aug 19, 2013)

RobLucciRapes said:


> SRA?



Sasuke Rescue Arc, the guy that fought Kimimaro


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## Rob (Aug 19, 2013)

Oh come on? 
Can that even be a fight? 

I was thinking Kage-Gaara 

Though, how would Hidan fare against Beginning Shippuden Gaara?


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 19, 2013)

Stermor said:


> lee was capable of moving faster then his sand shield.. sasuke had similar speed to lee.. pre skip kakashi blitzed sasuke casually..
> 
> pts kakashi is faster then pre skip by a decent margin..
> 
> ...



 Drunken Fist Lee was stated to be faster and had unpredictable movement patterns. Kimimaro was casually dodging Lee and wasn't even using all his dances yet.


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## Frawstbite (Aug 19, 2013)

Hidan will have to deal with sand attacking his seals for the duration of the battle. He doesn't have the raw force to incapacitate Gaara, and they're fighting in an open field so there is no possible way for him to hide. The sand is always going to be faster than the ritual. The ground under him is the same ground that Gaara ultimately has dominance over. 

I'm all for saying Hidan can win, but I don't exactly see anyone saying how he manages to create the seal while avoiding sand (which can destroy the seal) and countering the idea that Gaara can control the ground under him and grind up the grass which the seal is placed on.

Even without knowledge Gaara won't watch Hidan create a blood seal when he can capitalize on that very moment. If Hidan is as fast as the people supporting him believe, then the moment he stops is Gaara's best chance. That just happens to be each and every moment he tries to create that seal. Gaara catches onto this eventually, and simply destroys the seal by smudging it out with sand. This will take a moment at best and he will have no trouble keeping his defenses up in the process.

Let's also not forget the idea that a small scrape is by no means getting through the sand armor. Hidan must land a very decent cut. The black rod might be better, so he can inflict a direct stab wound.

What Hidan needs to do is completely incapacitate Gaara, to prevent sand from quickly brushing by and smudging his seals. Gaara only needs to catch one single limb to have the grip he needs. Perhaps while Hidan makes the seal Gaara takes advantage and sinks him. He has sand armor to prevent any initial scrape. If Hidan should screw up and hit a sand clone, then his scythe will become embedded into the sand in the same way Sasuke's shirukens were stuck.  Gaara can reshape the clone and take the scythe. He can either crush it or bury it. Hidan's task in my opinion is bigger than Gaara's.

Speed is where we draw the line I guess. If Hidan is fast enough to blitz through the sand and pierce Gaara with that black rod then he can do that I suppose. I wouldn't put that much faith in his speed, but I'm sure some people do. I'll go with Gaara on this one.


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## Veracity (Aug 19, 2013)

Stermor said:


> lee was capable of moving faster then his sand shield.. sasuke had similar speed to lee.. pre skip kakashi blitzed sasuke casually..
> 
> pts kakashi is faster then pre skip by a decent margin..
> 
> ...



This^ 

Pretty much how any body with common sense would draw the conclusion that Hidan is faster.


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## Baroxio (Aug 19, 2013)

When did pre skip Kakashi blitz Sasuke? When he was free-falling towards Naruto with the Chidori out? 

Sasuke was never "blitzed" by Kakashi after obtaining Lee's speed, much less casually. Furthermore, the very fact that Kakashi was able to escape Hidan in CQC while dodging Kakuzu's huge elemental bursts (that Hidan had to tank) shows us that Kakashi is comfortably faster than Hidan.

But let's take this kind of retarded thinking to it's logical conclusion, ey?

Hidan "kept up" with Kakashi, who "kept up" with Sasuke/Killer Bee who "kept up" with V1 Ei who "kept up" with Minato/KCM Naruto.

So Hidan = KCM Naruto in speed, right? 

Oh, better yet, Shikamaru "kept up" with Hidan, too, so does this mean that Shikamaru = KCM Naruto in speed too?


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 19, 2013)

^ Finally.

 Hidan isn't as fast as Kakashi. While I disagree with Hidan's speed being at 3.5 in comparison to Kakashi's 4.5, it's obvious Kishi wanted to show that Hidan is slower than Kakashi. They obviously messed up with the 3.5 though considering Asuma has a speed of 4 and Hidan easily dodged Asuma and Shikamaru's jutsu.

 Didn't Kakashi keep up with a Weakened Sasuke? Sorry for my ignorance, trying to get caught up on the series.

 If you really want to go as far as to disprove Shikamaru's a speed demon (which is beyond ridiculous), he managed to react to Kakuzu and dodged him (for a short time) during the first fight with Hidan and Kakuzu. Obviously, Shikamaru's not as fast as Kakuzu, let alone Hidan or Asuma.


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## Axiom (Aug 19, 2013)

Asuma actually has a 4.5 speed in the DB 

But the only thing this proves is that Taijutsu is more important than speed when looking at... taijutsu!  Obviously.  Speed starts to matter once the speed gap becomes absurdly wide, a la V2 Ei Vs Sauce or 6 gated Gai Vs Shoten Kisame.  Also Gaara Vs Sauce and Lee.  But it should be noted that on no occasion did an actual taijutsu exchange occur.  It was merely a medium ranged blitz to which the opposing party couldn't physically react (Sauce had an answer to that, and Gaara had a shitty one, but that's beside the point.)  Sauce was slower than V1 Ei yet able to react to him, same for Hidan being able to engage Kakashi and Asuma, Hiruzen engaging Oro, Hashi, and Tobi, Tsunade hitting Oro and Kabuto, etc.

Side note, Hidan never really dodged any attack of Asuma's.  He clashed with him once, and then he managed to pressure Asuma long enough to get a scratch, which is normally pretty insignificant.  If drawing blood meant you won every time, Zabuza would be 3-0 against Kakashi.  I think a taijutsu exchange between Hidan and Asuma would be fairly even, but Hidan could certainly outlast Asuma, or just win every trade (one trade is all he needs to draw blood.)

Anyway, Hidan is faster than Gaara, obviously, but that isn't really important.  What's important is his ability to pressure from a range with his unpredictable and acrobatic scythe which Gaara would be hard pressed to avoid.  Part 1 Gaara never actually performed well against an opponent who utilized CQC.  First it was Lee, who was the first to touch him, and then Sauce, who was the first to draw blood, and then Kimi, who stupidly tried ranged attacks and let Gaara gather mass amounts of sand before coming up close and knocking Gaara down.

I don't see what feats Gaara has to imply that he could protect himself against Hidan's taijutsu, which managed to pressure Part 2 Sharingan Kakashi despite the rope on his scythe being destroyed.  Kakuzu's masks didn't have anything to do with the CQC exchange, it merely signified the end of it.


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 19, 2013)

> I don't see what feats Gaara has to imply that he could protect himself against Hidan's taijutsu...



 protecting himself against Kimis earth-warping AoE, kkg taijutsu was pretty generic, huh...

so some of the 12 hidan votes r cuz gaaras SRA feats r insufficient??


*Spoiler*: __ 



 fvkk my preferred fandom


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## Axiom (Aug 19, 2013)

No... Levitating 5 feet in the air at the end of a fight against somebody who is purely a ground fighter is not sufficient to do shit here.

He could've levitated much earlier in the fight but his decision to stay on the ground is a downfall.  For Gaara, SnM is easy to avoid and Hidan is way too hard


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 19, 2013)

Axiom said:


> No... Levitating 5 feet in the air at the end of a fight against somebody who is purely a ground fighter is not sufficient to do shit here.
> 
> He could've levitated much earlier in the fight but his decision to stay on the ground is a downfall.  For Gaara, SnM is easy to avoid and Hidan is way too hard



No its ok, I gotcha loud n' clear.  smfh...


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## Dr. Leonard Church (Aug 19, 2013)

While I do believe Hidan isn't a slouch in the speed department, I don't see him winning here. Remember that Kakashi (I see his name being thrown about here) had full knowledge when he engaged Hidan. He knows that any attack made on Hidan is effectively pointless, but if Hidan takes _just one drop of blood_, it's _good game_. Hidan appears to be at Kakashi's level, but people tend to forget the context of fights.

In terms of this fight, pure speed matters. If Hidan can't outspeed Gaara's sand, he loses. Gaara will amass a Sand Tsunami and bury Hidan under sand, crushing him. And that's what I see here. Hidan has no feats suggesting he can pierce through Gaara's sand shield, and his speed feats are mediocre at best: he relies just as much on his agility and the flexibility of his scythe to get a scratch on his enemies, which won't matter against an omnidirectional, automatic sand shield.


----------



## Axiom (Aug 19, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> No its ok, I gotcha loud n' clear.  smfh...



Just like how SnM was easier for Gaara to avoid than weightless Lee and CE Sauce


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Aug 19, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Just like how SnM was easier for *SRA* Gaara to avoid than weightless Lee and CE Sauce



 



Axiom said:


> Distance: *40 Meters*
> Location: Gaara Vs Kimi
> *Mindset: IC*
> Knowledge: None



yep...

like I said, I tooooooooootally get where Ur comin from


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 20, 2013)

Hidan blitzs and rapes.


----------



## Ghost (Aug 20, 2013)

Hidan blitzes.


----------



## Alaude (Aug 20, 2013)

Hidan wins.


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## Olympian (Aug 20, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Asuma actually has a 4.5 speed in the DB
> 
> But the only thing this proves is that Taijutsu is more important than speed when looking at... taijutsu!  Obviously.  Speed starts to matter once the speed gap becomes absurdly wide, a la V2 Ei Vs Sauce or 6 gated Gai Vs Shoten Kisame.  Also Gaara Vs Sauce and Lee.  But it should be noted that on no occasion did an actual taijutsu exchange occur.  It was merely a medium ranged blitz to which the opposing party couldn't physically react (Sauce had an answer to that, and Gaara had a shitty one, but that's beside the point.)  Sauce was slower than V1 Ei yet able to react to him, same for Hidan being able to engage Kakashi and Asuma, Hiruzen engaging Oro, Hashi, and Tobi, Tsunade hitting Oro and Kabuto, etc.
> 
> ...



+1

I personally disagree with Hidan`s 3.5 in the Databook. he should have been at least a 4.



Frawstbite said:


> Speed is where we draw the line I guess. If Hidan is fast enough to blitz through the sand and pierce Gaara with that black rod then he can do that I suppose. I wouldn't put that much faith in his speed, but I'm sure some people do. I'll go with Gaara on this one.


This is where i have the less doubt. Part I Gaara was too stationary of a figther and relied heavily on the speed of his sand. 

That Sand was surpassed Lee and Sasuke at the time. It`s only a matter of time he gets a scratch and time is a Hidan`s luxury.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 20, 2013)

Lets assume Hidan is fast enough to get through Gaara's sand (he isn't). What happens. Gaara's going to put up sand armor. Then it goes one of two ways.

Armor was already up and he hits it. He gets no blood and then gets buried 200m into the earth. Gaara wins.

He gets blood. Gaara doesn't ever just sit there and watch his opponent, especially if he doing a ritual. Gaara won't let him. His sword doesn't kill, it barely pierces the skin. He's getting hit by that big ass sand wave and then buried or crushed. Gaara wins.

No lets look at it the only way it should be looked at. 40m starting distance and Hidan isn't touching him. NO WAY IN HELL is Hidan touching him. 

Gaara wins 10/10 times mid dif.


----------



## Frawstbite (Aug 20, 2013)

Olympian said:


> +1
> 
> This is where i have the less doubt. Part I Gaara was too stationary of a figther and relied heavily on the speed of his sand.
> 
> That Sand was surpassed Lee and Sasuke at the time. It`s only a matter of time he gets a scratch and time is a Hidan`s luxury.



It should also be noted that while Hidan's movement can be called fast, it doesn't mean his striking speed is fast. He was called the slowest attacker in the akatsuki for a reason. Where he may have the potential to move very quickly, his swing is not all that impressive. The cable makes it no more impressive than a large projectile which wont ever get through the sand.

So it's not just about movement speed, and I don't think a wide scythe swing from the slowest attacker in an akatsuki is going to get through Gaara's defense easily. Even then, I don't think he can do it with enough speed and raw power to tear through the armor, when (again) he called his own attacks slow. This would mean he's slower than Kisame who is _certainly_ not the fastest attacker we have seen.

You need fast striking speed to get through the sand defense, not just fast movement speed. 

So to say something similar, it also comes down to his striking speed. Something I have _every reason_ to put very little faith in.


----------



## Legendary Itachi (Aug 20, 2013)

Let's say Hidan takes blood and Gaara can't do anything to him while he's forming ritual, what's stopping Gaara to enter Shukaku Mode to destroy Hidan into pieces? 

Don't say he won't, at least it's more plausible than he's just sitting and taking a cup of tea while watching how Hidan takes blood and forms ritual to stab himself.
And nothing suggests his scythe is strong enough to bypass sand, it's only large enough to take blood easier.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 20, 2013)

Hidan was faster than Asuma and as fast as part II Kakashi according to the manga facts.
SRA Gaara's sand was slower than Part I Lee and Sasuke.

Part I Lee and Sasuke were obviously faster than Part II Kakashi and Asuma 
Lee was able to punch Gaara and make him bleed, but of course Hidan's weapon and Hidan's strength are below Part I Lee's


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## IchLiebe (Aug 20, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Hidan was faster than Asuma and as fast as part II Kakashi according to the manga facts.



Hidan was not faster than Asuma. He was more skilled and had the better weapon. And he wasn't as fast as Kakashi. Kakashi went on the defensive because going on the offense would give Hidan a chance at a counter attack and Kakashi couldn't afford to be touched once. And even when Kakashi was having to step backwards Hidan couldn't go faster than him.



> SRA Gaara's sand was slower than Part I Lee and Sasuke.



No, chunnin exam Gaara's sand was. Kimmimaro was as fast as 1st gate Lee and Gaara had no problem keeping up. There's a reason Kishi had Lee say Gaara got better.



> Part I Lee and Sasuke were obviously faster than Part II Kakashi and Asuma
> Lee was able to punch Gaara and make him bleed, but of course Hidan's weapon and Hidan's strength are below Part I Lee's



Hidan isn't as fast as part 1 Lee. He's said he was the slowest in Akatsuki. His weapon barely pierces the skin. He can't even hit Gaara and if he did, he won't have time to do the ritual because Gaara is always on the attack.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 20, 2013)

SRA Gaara will not be outsped by the likes of Part 1 Sasuke and Lee unless you're saying CS1 Kimimaro is inferior to them in terms of speed which isn't the case at all.


----------



## Stermor (Aug 21, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Hidan was not faster than Asuma. He was more skilled and had the better weapon. And he wasn't as fast as Kakashi. Kakashi went on the defensive because going on the offense would give Hidan a chance at a counter attack and Kakashi couldn't afford to be touched once. And even when Kakashi was having to step backwards Hidan couldn't go faster than him.



like this even matters... hidan kept up with a faster kakashi then the one that blitzed sasuke.. remember that sasuke is not even able to move or react to kakashi.. sasuke was able to outspeed gaara's shield.. if sasuke can why can't somebody who can move faster then sasuke can either react or move fail at that?? hidan is well beyond part 1 gaara in speed.. to the point he can casually blitz gaara (like gai casually did)..... 



IchLiebe said:


> No, chunnin exam Gaara's sand was. Kimmimaro was as fast as 1st gate Lee and Gaara had no problem keeping up. There's a reason Kishi had Lee say Gaara got better.



not really kimimaro was slower then lee.. and lol at lee getting stronger while beeing in the hospital for months.. gaara might have gotten better is still is not anywhere near enough to help against hidan.. gaara still had alot of trouble with kimimaro.. 



IchLiebe said:


> Hidan isn't as fast as part 1 Lee. He's said he was the slowest in Akatsuki. His weapon barely pierces the skin. He can't even hit Gaara and if he did, he won't have time to do the ritual because Gaara is always on the attack.



hahahahahahahaha hidan is not as fast as part 1 lee.....you don't really believe that right???? you can be that stupid??


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 21, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Hidan was not faster than Asuma. He was more skilled and had the better weapon. And he wasn't as fast as Kakashi. Kakashi went on the defensive because going on the offense would give Hidan a chance at a counter attack and Kakashi couldn't afford to be touched once. And even when Kakashi was having to step backwards Hidan couldn't go faster than him.



If Asuma was faster than Hidan he wouldn't get a single injure even if Hidan has Gai level taijutsu.

Speed is far more determinant than what you think.



IchLiebe said:


> No, chunnin exam Gaara's sand was. Kimmimaro was as fast as 1st gate Lee and Gaara had no problem keeping up. There's a reason Kishi had Lee say Gaara got better.




So post operated Lee, said to be weaker and slower, and even unable to be a ninja anymore, was in fact faster than before     

Deal with it, Kimimaro was slower than post operated Lee.



IchLiebe said:


> Hidan isn't as fast as part 1 Lee. He's said he was the slowest in Akatsuki. His weapon barely pierces the skin. He can't even hit Gaara and if he did, he won't have time to do the ritual because Gaara is always on the attack.



No, his attacks are the slowest in Akatsuki. Not he himself. 
Also lol, now part I Lee is one of the fastest ninjas in the manga, isn't he?


----------



## crystalblade13 (Aug 21, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> who said PTS gaara couldnt keep up with V1 A, sasuke etc
> was it stated somewhere???
> 
> your argument is dumb this is what you sound like
> ...



icegaze, i like you, but you're strange butthurt for part one characters being weaker than part 2 characters is REALLY irritating.

Part one gaara is weaker than current gaara for a plethora of obvious reasons that you're ignoring seemingly for the lolz. Part one genin lee is in no way even slightly comparable to A, the fastest shinobi alive. the fact that base guy was moving too fast for genin to see (while they COULD see lee) is evidence of this. unless you're trying to say part one lee is faster than part one guy who is faster than the raikage (who KS gaara managed to block, when part one gaara's sand couldnt keep up with weightless lee).

part one gaara does not have feats of keeping up with someone who is as fast as A. therefor, as far as we know, he cant.

part one gaara doesnt have feats of blocking something as strong as a susanoo sword slash ( his sand was being breached by MUCH weaker things)

part one gaara has no feats of sensing things through sand, so we assume he cant.

part one gaara never demonstrated the usage of a sealing tag pyramid, so, as far as we know, he cant use it.

you cant just say "well, dude, prove that part 1 gaara couldnt do it!!!"

we dont have to. he DIDNT do it, and thats all that matters here. a genin and a kage arent the same, no matter how much you want to believe they are.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 21, 2013)

Stermor said:


> like this even matters... hidan kept up with a faster kakashi then the one that blitzed sasuke.. remember that sasuke is not even able to move or react to kakashi.. sasuke was able to outspeed gaara's shield.. if sasuke can why can't somebody who can move faster then sasuke can either react or move fail at that?? hidan is well beyond part 1 gaara in speed.. to the point he can casually blitz gaara (like gai casually did).....



He didn't keep up though. Kakashi played defense on purpose and while Hidan had a sword, Kakashi had a kunai and he still didn't get touched. What are talking about Kakashi blitzing Sasuke? Show some scans.

Hidan has NEVER shown the speed you're talking about. You're literally comparing Hidan's speed to Gai's. TO MOTHER FUCKING MAITO GAI. 



> not really kimimaro was slower then lee.. and lol at lee getting stronger while beeing in the hospital for months.. gaara might have gotten better is still is not anywhere near enough to help against hidan.. gaara still had alot of trouble with kimimaro..



Where the fuck did I say Lee got stronger? I said he used the 1st gate and later on said GAARA got better.  Kimmimaro is a tank and his body healed from being smashed by the sand. Hidan can't do that so if he gets crushed he's done.



> hahahahahahahaha hidan is not as fast as part 1 lee.....you don't really believe that right???? you can be that stupid??



PROVE IT. You can laugh all you want but Hidan has never shown movement speed as fast as Lee. He can react to Lee, but he can't move as fast as him in movement speed and therefore can't get past the sand.



Zuhaitz said:


> If Asuma was faster than Hidan he wouldn't get a single injure even if Hidan has Gai level taijutsu.



Taijutsu skill matters a lot more than you think. Had Hidan's scythe not had the rope then Asuma wouldn't have been hit. He got hit because it came from his blind spot. Had NOTHING to do with speed.



> Speed is far more determinant than what you think.



I agree. Hidan isn't fast enough therefor he can't get to Gaara.



> So post operated Lee, said to be weaker and slower, and even unable to be a ninja anymore, was in fact faster than before
> 
> Deal with it, Kimimaro was slower than post operated Lee.



Yes facepalm because you can't read. I said GAARA got better. 

You're acting like Lee got slower because of it when that was never said. 



> No, his attacks are the slowest in Akatsuki. Not he himself.
> Also lol, now part I Lee is one of the fastest ninjas in the manga, isn't he?



No he's not the one of the fastest ninja. He's a fast ninja. You're trying to say Hidan has speed he's never shown.

Show some scans and show how fast Hidan is.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 21, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Hidan has NEVER shown the speed you're talking about. You're literally comparing Hidan's speed to Gai's. TO MOTHER FUCKING MAITO GAI.





Hidan was keeping up with sharingan Kakashi



IchLiebe said:


> PROVE IT. You can laugh all you want but Hidan has never shown movement speed as fast as Lee. He can react to Lee, but he can't move as fast as him in movement speed and therefore can't get past the sand.



Kakashi can keep up with base Gai. Part I Base Gai >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Part I post operated Lee using the first gate.

Hidan was as fast as Kakashi.



IchLiebe said:


> You're acting like Lee got slower because of it when that was never said.



In fact that operation made Lee even faster


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 21, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Hidan was keeping up with sharingan Kakashi
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Still with the BS. Hidan keeping up with kakashi doesn't make him faster than genin lee 
When did kakashi blitz genin lee? When did he blitz sasuke after sasuke copied lee movements ?
Hidan regardless of how fast you think he is cannot out run a tsunami which changed the battlefield entirely . what's Hidan supposed to do ? Jump ? 
He doesn't have Mei Kage level jump so how does he do it ?


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 21, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Hidan was keeping up with sharingan Kakashi



1. Hidan didn't keep up with Kakashi. Kakashi played defense of purpose and never tried attacking Hidan.
2. Hidan had Kakuza's attacks to help him.
3. Hidan with a sword couldn't do shit to Kakashi with a kunai.
4. You're confusing movement speed for combat speed. Hidan can react to Lee's taijutsu but in a foot race, Hidan would lose. Lee needed that movement speed to get past the sand. 



> Kakashi can keep up with base Gai. Part I Base Gai >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Part I post operated Lee using the first gate.



He's faster than Lee but he has the same style as Lee. They both use speed, power, and skill to fight. Hidan only uses skill because he doesn't have the speed or power.



> Hidan was as fast as Kakashi.



No he wasn't. Kakashi was running backwards while Hidan was running forwards and he still couldn't get a hit. I don't have to tell you that running backwards slows you down quite a bit do I?



> n fact that operation made Lee even faster



I know you're new and you think you're smart but atleast use reading comprehension a little bit. I said Lee was never said to get slower because of the operation. Never did I even hint that he got faster. Not once in this thread have I said Lee got better. I said Gaara did.

Now if you want to prove Lee got slower than by all means, get scans.


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 21, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> I know you're new and you think you're smart but atleast use reading comprehension a little bit. I said Lee was never said to get slower because of the operation. Never did I even hint that he got faster. Not once in this thread have I said Lee got better. I said Gaara did.
> 
> Now if you want to prove Lee got slower than by all means, get scans.



While I agree with the outcome of this fight I should mention that Gaara said Lee got slower.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 21, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> 1. Hidan didn't keep up with Kakashi. Kakashi played defense of purpose and never tried attacking Hidan.


Proofs or GTFO 



IchLiebe said:


> 2. Hidan had Kakuza's attacks to help him.


No, he didn't have Kakuzu as back up the second time.


IchLiebe said:


> 3. Hidan with a sword couldn't do shit to Kakashi with a kunai.


Neither could Zabuza, neither could Sasuke against Itachi, etc. Having a better wepaon is futile.


IchLiebe said:


> 4. You're confusing movement speed for combat speed. Hidan can react to Lee's taijutsu but in a foot race, Hidan would lose. Lee needed that movement speed to get past the sand.


No, any Akatsuki will win against Part I Lee in a race.



IchLiebe said:


> He's faster than Lee but he has the same style as Lee. They both use speed, power, and skill to fight. Hidan only uses skill because he doesn't have the speed or power.


Hidan uses speed, taijutsu and strength. His fighting style relies on his physical capacity, making his physical capacity above any of the genins in the first part.



IchLiebe said:


> I know you're new and you think you're smart but atleast use reading comprehension a little bit. I said Lee was never said to get slower because of the operation. Never did I even hint that he got faster. Not once in this thread have I said Lee got better. I said Gaara did.
> 
> Now if you want to prove Lee got slower than by all means, get scans.



Tsunade: "Even after the operation we can't be sure you'll be able to keep being a ninja"


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 21, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Hidan was keeping up with sharingan Kakashi



 No, Kakashi was playing on the defensive and had to handle Kakuzu's bodies at the same time. Kakashi was clearly faster than Hidan.



> Kakashi can keep up with base Gai. Part I Base Gai >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Part I post operated Lee using the first gate.



 Ok? We know Gai is fast. He's most likely faster than Kakashi, but reactions are what's important, so with Kakashi's sharingan, he can likely keep up. Same with Sasuke, he's able to keep up with A because he can react to his moves.



> Hidan was as fast as Kakashi.



 No he isn't.



> In fact that operation made Lee even faster



 I will admit, Post Operated Lee is slower, but surprisingly, by the Databooks, his stats have improved if that counts. Anyways, Kimimaro was able to casually dodge Lee and once he used Drunken Fist, Kimimaro was impressed by his * speed * and unpredictable movements, but was still matching him really well. This is a sick Kimimaro. No doubt a Healthy Kimimaro can outspeed him.

 @IchLiebe

 I agree with the rest of what you said, but here's a scan proving that Lee got slower.

 1


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 21, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Proofs or GTFO



What proof do you need? The second Hidan said he was going to attack Kakashi put his hands up, stood up on his toes, and started moving backwards.



> No, he didn't have Kakuzu as back up the second time.



You mean when Kakashi was dodging Kakuza's attack and HIdan popped up behind him and still couldn't do shit despite catching him off guard.



> Neither could Zabuza, neither could Sasuke against Itachi, etc. Having a better wepaon is futile.



Sasuke hit Itachi because he had a better weapon, rigged shuriken. Mifune beat Hanzo's weapon because his was sharper. Samehada beat Bee's raiton swords. Better weapon means everything unless you're fighting someone who's just plain better than you are.



> No, any Akatsuki will win against Part I Lee in a race.



Zetsu and HIdan will beat unweighted Lee in a race LOLOLOLOLOL. Show some scans to back it up.

Show Hidan do SOMETHING close to this. Or something close to this.



> Hidan uses speed, taijutsu and strength. His fighting style relies on his physical capacity, making his physical capacity above any of the genins in the first part.



Hidan said he's the slowest attacker in Akatsuki yet he uses speed for his attacks? LOL. He fights with pure taijutsu skill. Lee trained hard for the speed he gain, carrying hundreds of pounds around everyday. Hidan has never been said to be a speedster or to be fast. But Lee's whole thing of being a ninja is to be too fast for people to catch him, too good for people to hit him, and strong enough to fuck you up. Hidan's is he fights jumping around and being acrobatic while throwing his scythe around.



> Tsunade: "Even after the operation we can't be sure you'll be able to keep being a ninja"



Do you know what a scan means? I posted some up above. It's manga pages, use them. You didn't show ANYTHING that said he would be slower while two other people did.


----------



## Axiom (Aug 21, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> You mean when Kakashi was dodging Kakuza's attack and HIdan popped up behind him and still couldn't do shit despite catching him off guard.



...what?  That's not even remotely close to what happened.  I don't think a single part of that is true.  God fucking damn

Hidan engaged Kakashi from straight ahead, without Kakuzu having done anything.  In the middle of their engagement, Kakuzu's mask appears, so Kakashi runs away.

Hidan didn't take him from behind, Kakashi was not dodging Kakuzu's attack at the time of engagement, and Hidan didn't catch him off guard.  I guess Hidan not doing shit is close enough, although Hidan did come pretty damn close to scratching Kakashi in that scan.  But still... you made 4 claims and 3 were false >.>


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 21, 2013)

Axiom said:


> ...what?  That's not even remotely close to what happened.  I don't think a single part of that is true.  God fucking damn
> 
> Hidan engaged Kakashi from straight ahead, without Kakuzu having done anything.  In the middle of their engagement, Kakuzu's mask appears, so Kakashi runs away.
> 
> Hidan didn't take him from behind, Kakashi was not dodging Kakuzu's attack at the time of engagement, and Hidan didn't catch him off guard.  I guess Hidan not doing shit is close enough, although Hidan did come pretty damn close to scratching Kakashi in that scan.  But still... you made 4 claims and 3 were false >.>



You need to calm down. I was talking about right here. 

Hidan had Kakuza as backup to help him attack and couldn't hit Kakashi still. I don't see where you got that Hidan got close to scratching him from.


----------



## Axiom (Aug 21, 2013)

Oh, lol.  Woopsy daisies.

Anyway, just look at Hidan's scythe and Kakashi's arm.  Hidan's a few inches away from drawing blood.


----------



## Stermor (Aug 21, 2013)

hidan was close enough that to kakashi in their engagement that he should be similar in speed... 

anyway gaara was casually blitzed by gai.. and while hidan is not as fast as gai.. does anyone really think hidan requires so much more effort to blitz gaara... taking into account both kakashi and gai got faster in part 2..


----------



## UchihaX28 (Aug 21, 2013)

^  His scythe is also a long ass weapon.  The second time, Kakashi managed to play on the defensive and block all his moves despite being caught from behind.


----------



## SuperSaqer (Aug 21, 2013)

Gaara is nothing but Chunin level at that time. He wouldn't be able to lay a finger on any Akatsuki member until Part 2.


----------



## Baroxio (Aug 21, 2013)

SuperSaqer said:


> Gaara is nothing but Chunin level at that time. He wouldn't be able to lay a finger on any Akatsuki member until Part 2.


Forest of Death Gaara was specifically stated to be above any current Chunin, and Lee remarks that Gaara has improved tremendously since the Chunin Exams. In other words, you're talking out of your ass.

SRA Gaara is solid Jounin to elite Jounin at the _*least*_.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 21, 2013)

Stermor said:


> hidan was close enough that to kakashi in their engagement that he should be similar in speed...



Not really. That has to do with combat speed. Hidan's running speed and attack speed isn't something that will get past Gaara's sand.



> anyway gaara was casually blitzed by gai.. and while hidan is not as fast as gai.. does anyone really think hidan requires so much more effort to blitz gaara... taking into account both kakashi and gai got faster in part 2..



Gai is one of the fastest character in the manga. You're thinking Hidan has unweighted Lee's speed and can get past Gaara's long range attacks and cross 40m before Gaara touches him is hilarious. Hidan isn't getting past the sand tsunami or when Gaara makes it rain sand.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 22, 2013)

Gaara has too many ways to catch Hidan it's not funny 
Think about how he caught kimimaro the first time . Attack from above and below . Being akatsuki doesn't mean squat . He is the weakest member by so so very far . Itachi is akatsuki yet ends Hidan in a second so stop thinking Hidan wearing a jacket makes Hidan immune to being crushed. Also gai never blitz SRA gaara sand so lots of people are talking out of their ass


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 22, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Forest of Death Gaara was specifically stated to be above any current Chunin, and Lee remarks that Gaara has improved tremendously since the Chunin Exams. In other words, you're talking out of your ass.
> 
> SRA Gaara is solid Jounin to elite Jounin at the _*least*_.



Nah, SRA Gaara is legendary Kage level at least 

Chuunin exam Gaara was a low chuunin level, with the chance if using a Bijuu. SRA Gaara is a high chuunin level that choose to never use the Bijuu again.

Hidan is an elite jounin level character.

He was as fast as Kakashi, and that's all It's required to blitz SRA Gaara.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 22, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Nah, SRA Gaara is legendary Kage level at least
> 
> Chuunin exam Gaara was a low chuunin level, with the chance if using a Bijuu. SRA Gaara is a high chuunin level that choose to never use the Bijuu again.
> 
> ...



When did kakashi blitz SRA gaara?? That assumption is dumb and unfounded 
gai slapping away genin gaara last ditch effort to crush lee doesn't equate to any Jounin can outpace gaara sand . Odd how you still haven't countered what stops gaara from levitating to safety
What is Hidan supposed to do then !? Use his akatsuki level jump ? 

Being at a much higher level doesn't help for shit if the persons abilty is well suited to fight urs . that's a manga fact !!


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 22, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> When did kakashi blitz SRA gaara?? That assumption is dumb and unfounded
> gai slapping away genin gaara last ditch effort to crush lee doesn't equate to any Jounin can outpace gaara sand . Odd how you still haven't countered what stops gaara from levitating to safety
> What is Hidan supposed to do then !? Use his akatsuki level jump ?
> 
> Being at a much higher level doesn't help for shit if the persons abilty is well suited to fight urs . that's a manga fact !!



Base Gai did it, casually. I guess that you think that part II Kakashi was an slowpoke compared to non serious base part I Gai 

Hidan's speed = Part II Kakashi's speed ~ Part I Base Gai speed


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 22, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Base Gai did it, casually. I guess that you think that part II Kakashi was an slowpoke compared to non serious base part I Gai
> 
> Hidan's speed = Part II Kakashi's speed ~ Part I Base Gai speed



Show some feats. We've showed you that Hidan was keeping up with a Kakashi that was running backwards which isn't that good a feat. Show Hidan do something close to the speed Lee has shown or you got nothing.

Gai is faster than Kakashi by a good margin. Again you're using combat speed to justify movement speed. One means the speed you can react to and fight(combat) and the other means how fast you can cross a distance(movement). Hidan has combat speed but not movement speed. You have to have movement like Lee did or you're not getting through the sand.


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## Icegaze (Aug 22, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Base Gai did it, casually. I guess that you think that part II Kakashi was an slowpoke compared to non serious base part I Gai
> 
> Hidan's speed = Part II Kakashi's speed ~ Part I Base Gai speed



That wasn't against SRA gaara u fish 
That was against gaara in the Chunin exams. Gaara improved alot in that time. So much so that lee had to point it out . also we have seen on several occasions that people can react to attacks when they aren't the target. Bee reacted to hirashin to save Ei despite Ei being faster as having better reactions that Bee. 

You moron Hidan doesn't hve to be as fast as kakashi to engage him in CQC. He wasn't as fast as kakashi. The time before Atsugi all kakashi did was defend . After kakuzu Katon kakashi merely defended Hidan attack again . that doesn't make Hidan as fast as kakashi . Deidara can react to gai it doesn't make him as fast as gai . Your simpleton method is just that simple. 


A fought B and didn't get blitz therefore A is as fast as B
C never fought A or B however fought someone slower therefore both A and B can blitz him 
how dumb!!!


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## SuperSaqer (Aug 22, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Forest of Death Gaara was specifically stated to be above any current Chunin, and Lee remarks that Gaara has improved tremendously since the Chunin Exams. In other words, you're talking out of your ass.
> 
> SRA Gaara is solid Jounin to elite Jounin at the _*least*_.


xD

I remember Kakashi saying that Sasuke is Chuunin level, and he defeated Gaara. SRA Gaara is high Chuunin level, and that's it. 

So Gaara is as strong as pre-skip Kakashi?


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## IchLiebe (Aug 22, 2013)

SuperSaqer said:


> xD
> 
> I remember Kakashi saying that Sasuke is Chuunin level, and he defeated Gaara. SRA Gaara is high Chuunin level, and that's it.
> 
> So Gaara is as strong as pre-skip Kakashi?



Kakashi has the necessary speed to get past the sand and has rakiri to get through it.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 22, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Base Gai did it, casually. I guess that you think that part II Kakashi was an slowpoke compared to non serious base part I Gai
> 
> Hidan's speed = Part II Kakashi's speed ~ Part I Base Gai speed



 Base Gai technically didn't outpace the sand.

 Kakashi also isn't as fast as Gai. There's something called combat speed where you can react to something, but movement speed is actually how quick you move.

 For example, Sasuke is able to react to A and Killer Bee, but that doesn't mean he can move as quick as them or Deidara dodging Sasuke despite being slower.

 Btw, do you hold a grudge with Icegaze because your siggy definitely says so.?


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## Icegaze (Aug 22, 2013)

He obviously does 
He hates to be told he is wrong . The A>B>C logic of his is easy to disprove 

Hidan fought kakashi therefore Hidan is as fast .  Kimimaro is slow because he fought genin lee. Kakashi must be faster than lee because he is a Jounin. Fighting base lee automatically makes you slow if you don't blitz him. With arguments like that you can see why he would be mad .  my favourite Hidan is akatsuki level 
Wot does that even mean??  most of akatsuki are in different levels some are at such different levels they can't even be compared .  Wtf? Is Hidan supposed to do against sasori? who can Hidan beat that sasori can't ? Hidan was supposed to be better however if with knowledge the likes of temari pawn him . gaara only need levitate to make Hidan look like a genin . lets not forget in 1 move gaara can change the battle field to sand .


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 22, 2013)

Lee during SRA has a speed of 4 which is pretty darn fast and that's not including Gates at all.

 I'm thinking Gaara referred to Lee losing his reaction and sharpness (as in Taijutsu skills to reacting to quick opponents). Not sure, that's at least what the Databook implies.

 What's also sad is that for a puppeteer or an aerial fighter, Sasori and Deidara are listed faster than Hidan.


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## Axiom (Aug 22, 2013)

Does that reflect poorly on Hidan, or well on Sasori and Deidara?

With a 4.5, they are on par with DB3 Kakashi, Jiraiya, Asuma, and Sauce and ahead of Kisame and Kakuzu.  Hidan's 3.5 puts him on par with Tsunade and I think Nardo.

Deidara and Sasori just happen to be fast; Deidara was able to evade Team Gai for a short while and Sasori when in true body form was gonna blitz kill Chiyo with zero difficulty.  Honestly, his true body form could have beaten Chiyo and Sakura had Chiyo not decided to take out her Chikamatsu puppets.  True Body Sasori could probably beat Asuma, too, if Asuma doesn't have knowledge on poison.  If you give Asuma knowledge I'd favor him.

I think they're both slower than Kakashi and Sauce (as are Asuma and Jman), but they're not slow just because they're not CQC fighters.


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## Tsunami (Aug 22, 2013)

Hidan would stomp, he's way too fast for Gaara to keep up with and Hidan can draw blood quickly


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## Stermor (Aug 22, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> Base Gai technically didn't outpace the sand.
> 
> Kakashi also isn't as fast as Gai. There's something called combat speed where you can react to something, but movement speed is actually how quick you move.
> 
> ...



kakashi isn't as fast as gai we all know that.. but they are in the same tier.. kakashi cannot spar with gai properly if he is not (and feats seems to agree with this).. 

gai also didn't technically outpace the sand.. he outright blitzed it.. faster then gaara could see.. that is a pretty big gap as far as i'm concerned.. 

hidan with similar speed to part 2 kakashi should fall comfortable in the tier who can blitz gaara.. even if he requires slighty more effort then gai...


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## Icegaze (Aug 22, 2013)

Hidan can't draw blood from someone hsing sand armour .  The same sand armour tanked kimimaro bones which far exceed Hidan sycthe


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 22, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Does that reflect poorly on Hidan, or well on Sasori and Deidara?
> 
> With a 4.5, they are on par with DB3 Kakashi, Jiraiya, Asuma, and Sauce and ahead of Kisame and Kakuzu.  Hidan's 3.5 puts him on par with Tsunade and I think Nardo.
> 
> ...



 Hidan hasn't shown any feats of dodging a quick opponent at all.

 His feats really only suggest high combat speed while Deidara has dodged Sasuke and of course, you're example of Sasori suggests he's fast.

 I wasn't saying that if they don't specialize in CQC, they shouldn't be fast, but if you're built like Hidan, it's quite sad to see somebody who doesn't specialize in CQC is faster than you.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 23, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Show some feats. We've showed you that Hidan was keeping up with a Kakashi that was running backwards which isn't that good a feat. Show Hidan do something close to the speed Lee has shown or you got nothing.
> 
> Gai is faster than Kakashi by a good margin. Again you're using combat speed to justify movement speed. One means the speed you can react to and fight(combat) and the other means how fast you can cross a distance(movement). Hidan has combat speed but not movement speed. You have to have movement like Lee did or you're not getting through the sand.




They move exactly as fast.

Also LOL does anyone really think that Part I Lee is as fast or faster than even Part I Kakashi?


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 23, 2013)

Hidan gets buried, he's no where near as a tough opponent as Kimimaro was.


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## IchLiebe (Aug 23, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> They move exactly as fast.
> 
> Also LOL does anyone really think that Part I Lee is as fast or faster than even Part I Kakashi?



And that still doesn't show how he can cross 40m and blitz Gaara before Gaara gets him.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 23, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> And that still doesn't show how he can cross 40m and blitz Gaara before Gaara gets him.



No, because there's no way that Part II Kakashi could blitz a 11 years old Gaara


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## IchLiebe (Aug 23, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> No, because there's no way that Part II Kakashi could blitz a 11 years old Gaara



Kakashi can. Hidan can't. We don't know if Kakashi was using his full speed then. 

Look at what Shikamaru did to Hidan. If Shikamaru could that and chunnin exams Gaara block multiple attack froms weightless Lee who's way faster than Shikamaru, do you really think Hidan can do something here.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 23, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> No, because there's no way that Part II Kakashi could blitz a 11 years old Gaara



 Kakashi was caught from behind and on the defensive.

 Hidan hasn't shown any incredible speed feats. All he's done is clash with fast opponents which clashing is one of the least impressive feats in Naruto manga.

 There's a reason why Hidan has a speed of 3.5 compared to Kakashi's speed of 4.5 (which I do disagree with, but that's what Kishi tried to portray).


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 23, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi can. Hidan can't. We don't know if Kakashi was using his full speed then.
> 
> Look at what Shikamaru did to Hidan. If Shikamaru could that and chunnin exams Gaara block multiple attack froms weightless Lee who's way faster than Shikamaru, do you really think Hidan can do something here.



1- LOL You are suggesting that Kakashi was joking around instead of going for the kill agaisnt Akatsuki. You can't be taken seriously.

2- Post time skip Shikamaru is above Part I Gaara.



NarutoX28 said:


> Kakashi was caught from behind and on the defensive.
> 
> Hidan hasn't shown any incredible speed feats. All he's done is clash with fast opponents which clashing is one of the least impressive feats in Naruto manga.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 23, 2013)

^ That's clashing and Kakashi getting caught from behind.

 That's not impressive. Hidan just has fast reaction time. Kakashi has to play on the defensive. He has to focus both on Kakuzu and Hidan.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 23, 2013)

Well unless hidan just overwhelm gaara somehow and scratch he is getting immobilized. This is just a case of bad match-ups guys. Hidan had no superb over the top durability, strength or speed to speak of and when you depend on taijutsu for the most part then...yeah.

AOE desert+battlefield capture tricks let gaara take this.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 23, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Distance: 40 Meters
> Location: Gaara Vs Kimi
> Mindset: IC
> Knowledge: None
> ...



An interesting fight, but I'm sure Hidan would win. 

As Sasuke proved during the Chunin Exams, it's quite possible to land hits on Gaara before he ever gets a chance to pull out the shield of sand, or at least before he ever feels the need to do so. If a 12-year old Sasuke managed to speed blitz and pound on Gaara so many times, I'm pretty sure that someone like Hidan (who managed to keep up with Asuma and Part II Kakashi) should be able to do so too. I'm pretty sure that Asuma and Part II Kakashi are much faster than the likes of a 12-year old Sasuke. I also have a hard time buying this BS about Kaka not using his full speed against Hidan, either. Why on earth would he suddenly hold back on his speed against a dangerous Akatsuki member?

It's safe to say that the speed gap between Jonin and Genin is enormous, when you remember how an entire group of Jonin speed blitzed and intercepted Neji (who was one of the faster Genin) during his fight against Hinata in the Chunin Exams. Hidan's base speed may be average, but with Shunshin, he can hold up against Elite Jonin. That makes him more than fast enough to blitz Gaara's ass. In Hidan's case, though, all he needs to win here is a simple scratch on Gaara's body with his scythe. Once Hidan gets a drop of Gaara's blood, he can quickly initiate the curse ritual and go all voodoo on the future Kazekage. A single stab in the heart is all it would take to finish the kid off, right here. 

Even if Gaara transforms into (or releases) Shukaku, he'd still have his own blood, and thus still be susceptible to the Akatsuki member's cursed ritual.

*Hidan* stomps. He's on a completely different level from Part I Gaara, as should be expected of any Akatsuki member - even the weakest of them.



Matto-sama said:


> Someone actually thinks an Akatsuki member is going to lose to SRA Gaara?



I know, right? People seriously overestimate SRA Gaara in these  parts. I like Gaara a lot, but his Part I self is one of the most  overrated Naruto characters ever. There are even people who say he was  stronger than Naruto by the end of Part I, even though that's clearly  absolute bullshit. Naruto kicked Gaara's ass during their fight, in  spite of the fact that the Suna Jinchuriki used pretty much everything  he could, whereas the Uzumaki did not. For one, he didn't use KN1, and two,  he wasn't even aiming to kill Gaara in the first place, which tremendously reduced his combat strength. On-topic, Hidan is being underestimated a lot in this thread - even though he's clearly the superior fighter here. And guess what?

I don't even like Hidan. He's actually one of my least favorite characters, alongside random characters like Kin (from Part I) or the bullies who picked on Naruto and Sakura.


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## Axiom (Aug 23, 2013)

I am also surprised by the amount of dissenting opinions here.  Even if Hidan's base speed isn't fast enough to get by the sand shield, which is debatable, any shunshin from almost any S-Rank nin should have that capability.  I guess there are a few exceptions to that rule, but Hidan certainly isn't one of them.

I'd totally rep you but I'm 24'd :<


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## bleakwinter (Aug 23, 2013)

I'd also like to add that given Gaara's ability to alter the landscape with his sand avalanche techniques, there's no way Hidan could conceivably be able to draw a circle even if he hypothetically did scratch Gaara.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 23, 2013)

Hidan is going to most likely start with making his ritual which leaves him wide open.


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 23, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Hidan can't draw blood from someone hsing sand armour .  The same sand armour tanked kimimaro bones which far exceed Hidan sycthe



While I agree that Hidan loses against Part I Gaara, I disagree with this one particular point. When did Gaara's sand skin take a direct attack from Kimimaro without cracking or breaking off?


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## Baroxio (Aug 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> While I agree that Hidan loses against Part I Gaara, I disagree with this one particular point. When did Gaara's sand skin take a direct attack from Kimimaro without cracking or breaking off?


It cracked, but it didn't deal damage to Gaara.



This is pretty important, since this means that Gaara's Sand Armor is greater than his Automatic Sand Shield which Kimimaro just ran through.

Said Sand Shield was also able to tank Shigure's Needles:



According to Shigure himself, his Needles were able to penetrate 5 mm of steel.



Ergo, Gaara's Sand Armor > Kimimaro's Bones > Gaara's Sand Shield > Shigure's Needles > Steel.

Unfortunately for Hidan, his scythe lacks penetration feats, and is expressly said to be used for obtaining scratches, which is impossible against Gaara.

As such, this is Gaara's win.


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## IchLiebe (Aug 23, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> While I agree that Hidan loses against Part I Gaara, I disagree with this one particular point. When did Gaara's sand skin take a direct attack from Kimimaro without cracking or breaking off?



Here is where he tanked Kimi. I don't see why cracking matters as he didn't shed any blood.


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## Senkou (Aug 23, 2013)

I'm glad to see Hidan getting some love but dude has no chance.

Hidan is average speed and is probably the slowest of Akatsuki. He also has zero jutsu, he also is only good for taijutsu -> to voodoo.

This is fine and dandy vs a blitz oriented, no knowledge, taijutsu user in Tsunade but not the case for a mid-to-long range ninjutsu user. Hidan simply can't get close enough without getting caught and crushed. Even if he threw his weapon, it's not getting past the sand barrier. Or even Gaara if he decides to catch it with sand before hand. Gaara doesn't even have to entertain him, just straight imperial funeral.

Tidal wave of sand and then the funeral. GG


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## Van Konzen (Aug 23, 2013)

Gaara flies and burries Hidan.


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 23, 2013)

I actually forgot that; my mind always saw that particular scene as Kimimaro having cracked the sand armour and drawing blood. Though, if his charge had directly struck Gaara, I think it would have dealt more damage; it's quite clear that the sand wall Gaara put up soaked up some of the attack for him. Still impressive nontheless, though, but I don't think his sand armour would be able to take an attack from Hidan if he swings with full power and gets some momentum behind his swing. As I recall, his scythe actually penetrated concrete at one point, but I'm not sure if that happened. It's been a while since I've debated Naruto, and even longer since I've debated with Hidan in a match.

Mind, that isn't to say that I think Hidan could still get or kill Gaara via a blood ritual. The auto-defense is still going to be a huge hassle for Hidan to deal with, even with the rope on his scythe and he essentially has two layers of defense to get through if he wants to draw blood. Even were he to get blood, he'd still need to prepare a ritual and draw the symbol on the ground - something which isn't likely to work out considering Gaara's fighting style (which doesn't give the opponent much breathing room) and terraforming abilities.


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## Akitō (Aug 23, 2013)

This thread doesn't even make sense. The overestimation of Garra is ridiculous. CE Garra was nowhere near the elite jōnin level. Now how in the world is SRA Garra, who's only a few months older than CE Garra, able to compete with someone who toyed with an elite jōnin? 

It's amazing how people get so caught up with looking at feats and styles and how they match up against one another, and then completely ignore the overwhelming favorable portrayal for Hidan. SRA Garra was at best a mid-jōnin. That's not even close to where Hidan stood. Unless you think Garra literally jumped several levels in a few months, then the only answer to this thread is, "Hidan stomps". I don't even think there was anything suggesting that Garra got stronger, let alone by such a massive amount. 

And to make matters worse, if the level difference between the two wasn't enough, neither party was given info. A kid who could barely get through the Chūnin Exams vs. a world class legendary shinobi, and the conditions favor the world class legendary shinobi. That's horrible.


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## Ennoia (Aug 23, 2013)

Akitō said:


> This thread doesn't even make sense. The overestimation of Garra is ridiculous. CE Garra was nowhere near the elite jōnin level. Now how in the world is SRA Garra, who's only a few months older than CE Garra, able to compete with someone who toyed with an elite jōnin?
> 
> It's amazing how people get so caught up with looking at feats and styles and how they match up against one another, and then completely ignore the overwhelming favorable portrayal for Hidan. SRA Garra was at best a mid-jōnin. That's not even close to where Hidan stood. Unless you think Garra literally jumped several levels in a few months, then the only answer to this thread is, "Hidan stomps". I don't even think there was anything suggesting that Garra got stronger, let alone by such a massive amount.
> 
> And to make matters worse, if the level difference between the two wasn't enough, neither party was given info. A kid who could barely get through the Chūnin Exams vs. a world class legendary shinobi, and the conditions favor the world class legendary shinobi. That's horrible.



You provided no feats or evidence that suggests that Hidan would win this fight, you only spoke of levels. Levels and ranks cant win you an argument.


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## Baroxio (Aug 23, 2013)

Akitō said:


> This thread doesn't even make sense. The overestimation of Garra is ridiculous. CE Garra was nowhere near the elite jōnin level. Now how in the world is SRA Garra, who's only a few months older than CE Garra, able to compete with someone who toyed with an elite jōnin?
> 
> It's amazing how people get so caught up with looking at feats and styles and how they match up against one another, and then completely ignore the overwhelming favorable portrayal for Hidan. SRA Garra was at best a mid-jōnin. That's not even close to where Hidan stood. Unless you think Garra literally jumped several levels in a few months, then the only answer to this thread is, "Hidan stomps". I don't even think there was anything suggesting that Garra got stronger, let alone by such a massive amount.
> 
> And to make matters worse, if the level difference between the two wasn't enough, neither party was given info. A kid who could barely get through the Chūnin Exams vs. a world class legendary shinobi, and the conditions favor the world class legendary shinobi. That's horrible.



Hidan isn't a "world class legendary shinobi" outside of his participation in Akatsuki, which is telling since literally every other ninja in Akatsuki was portrayed as being famous for one thing or another before ever joining Akatsuki. Hidan was a relative unknown, and that's the only reason he was ever a threat.

Keep in mind that the "level" argument breaks down when you consider who finally defeated Hidan: Shikamaru, a chunin. Gaara at the Forest of Death was already said to be beyond any current chunin and he was stated to have gotten even stronger in his SRA incarnation. The idea that Gaara looses based solely off of level therefore doesn't make sense when somebody lower leveled than him (with far less power than him) actually managed to defeat Hidan.

Furthermore, Gaara *grew up* fending off attacks from the Kazekage's personal bodyguards for what could have been years. He isn't simply going to keel over just because a jounin throws a shuriken at him.

Lastly, Kishimoto has brought in level constantly only to emphasize that they mean entirely nothing in the story. Sasuke destroyed 2 Chunin on his first C ranked mission, Naruto beat Haku who was stated to be above Zabuza, Kabuto was also beaten when stated to be at Kakashi's level, and Kimimaro was stated to be far more powerful than the Sound 4 who were stated by the 4th Hokage's defeated Jounin bodyguards to be outside the realm of ninja. Again, the only time Kishimoto ever brings up level is expressly to hype somebody up before revealing that level means jack shit. So Gaara has more than enough to put qualms of "level" to rest, I hope. 

As for this match, Gaara has almost every possible advantage over Hidan: He can't be hurt by Hidan's attacks, and his method of combat is quite efficient against Hidan. A single Desert Tsunami followed by an Imperial Funeral ends the match. Even if Hidan survives, Gaara can easily sink him 200 meters underground where Hidan can't possibly come back up. 

Not having knowledge is normally a boon to Hidan, but not in a case where Gaara's IC style of fighting directly counters his anyway.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 23, 2013)

Akitō said:


> This thread doesn't even make sense. The overestimation of Garra is ridiculous. CE Garra was nowhere near the elite jōnin level. Now how in the world is SRA Garra, who's only a few months older than CE Garra, able to compete with someone who toyed with an elite jōnin?
> 
> It's amazing how people get so caught up with looking at feats and styles and how they match up against one another, and then completely ignore the overwhelming favorable portrayal for Hidan. SRA Garra was at best a mid-jōnin. That's not even close to where Hidan stood. Unless you think Garra literally jumped several levels in a few months, then the only answer to this thread is, "Hidan stomps". I don't even think there was anything suggesting that Garra got stronger, let alone by such a massive amount.
> 
> And to make matters worse, if the level difference between the two wasn't enough, neither party was given info. A kid who could barely get through the Chūnin Exams vs. a world class legendary shinobi, and the conditions favor the world class legendary shinobi. That's horrible.


Gaara is just a horrible match-up for Hidan, I don't really see Hidan penetrating Gaara's layers of defense, which would be a problem for him in order to get his ritual done and furthermore I don't see Hidan really dodging Gaara's techniques forever due to his lackadaisical nature. If he hides in that sand ball, he's as good as fucked.


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 24, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Hidan isn't a "world class legendary shinobi" outside of his participation in Akatsuki, which is telling since literally every other ninja in Akatsuki was portrayed as being famous for one thing or another before ever joining Akatsuki. Hidan was a relative unknown, and that's the only reason he was ever a threat.
> 
> Keep in mind that the "level" argument breaks down when you consider who finally defeated Hidan: Shikamaru, a chunin. Gaara at the Forest of Death was already said to be beyond any current chunin and he was stated to have gotten even stronger in his SRA incarnation. The idea that Gaara looses based solely off of level therefore doesn't make sense when somebody lower leveled than him (with far less power than him) actually managed to defeat Hidan.
> 
> ...




 I'm not doubting that Kabuto = Part 1 Kakashi, but do you mind pulling up a scan for that?


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## Meruem (Aug 24, 2013)

I personally think the speed difference is rather large even though Hidan wasn't especially fast.  Hidan should tag him for sure.


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## Akitō (Aug 24, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Hidan isn't a "world class legendary shinobi" outside of his participation in Akatsuki, which is telling since literally every other ninja in Akatsuki was portrayed as being famous for one thing or another before ever joining Akatsuki. Hidan was a relative unknown, and that's the only reason he was ever a threat.



Not sure what you're trying to say here. His participation in Akatsuki pegs him at the 'world class' level. Are you trying to debate against that, or are you taking my statement literally and trying to argue about how famous of a shinobi he was? Because that isn't the purpose of my classification. 



> Keep in mind that the "level" argument breaks down when you consider who finally defeated Hidan: Shikamaru, a chunin.



Yes, and that was made out to be specifically because of Shikamaru's intelligence and Hidan's recklessness. Hidan was obviously the stronger fighter by a significant margin but got unlucky that he was battling someone who could use his stupidity against him in such a clinical fashion. When it comes down to a fight like that, levels aren't nearly as important as they'd normally be. 

Garra doesn't have Shikamaru's intelligence, so it'll be a lot more about their levels than Shikamaru vs. Hidan was. There won't be any trickery involved. Also, Shikamaru knew of Hidan's abilities, and we know how dangerous Shikamaru can be when he has time to think. Had they fought each other when both had no info, it wouldn't have been close at all. 



> Furthermore, Gaara *grew up* fending off attacks from the Kazekage's personal bodyguards for what could have been years. He isn't simply going to keel over just because a jounin throws a shuriken at him.



Kage bodyguards aren't necessarily that strong. A weak jōnin is not much of a threat to Garra. I've already acknowledged that. The problem comes when you start pitting him against elite jōnin, who're by all accounts far superior to your average jōnin. 



> Lastly, Kishimoto has brought in level constantly only to emphasize that they mean entirely nothing in the story. Sasuke destroyed 2 Chunin on his first C ranked mission, Naruto beat Haku who was stated to be above Zabuza, Kabuto was also beaten when stated to be at Kakashi's level, and Kimimaro was stated to be far more powerful than the Sound 4 who were stated by the 4th Hokage's defeated Jounin bodyguards to be outside the realm of ninja. Again, the only time Kishimoto ever brings up level is expressly to hype somebody up before revealing that level means jack shit. So Gaara has more than enough to put qualms of "level" to rest, I hope.



You're completely misrepresenting the level argument. You and everyone else who thinks the level argument is rubbish constantly replace 'level' with 'rank': it's one of the ultimate straw man arguments of this section. Sasuke was at the chūnin level when he beat those two chūnin. That only dispels the notion that someone's rank isn't necessarily indicative of their limit - it only shows what they at least can do. 

The Haku hype isn't something that I really take seriously because we know for a fact that Naruto at that time was far from an elite jōnin considering a _much_ stronger version of Sasuke was anniahlated by an unserious Itachi (who's base stats aren't enough to completely blitz an elite jōnin), and a team of Shikamaru, Sakura, and a much stronger Naruto were considered to be no match for a team of jōnin that Asuma dominated. 

Kabuto was taken off guard. He was clearly the superior fighter, but allowed his arrogance to get the better of him. 

I don't understand how your Kimimaro example has any relevance to the level argument, so I'll just ignore it.


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## Icegaze (Aug 24, 2013)

Hidan rushes gaara makes a sand clone . Hidan swings at it 
Gaara crushes him with the sand clone . The end it can be that simple
Saying gaara doesn't fight with tricks or deception tactics is stupid 
Level is irrelevant . Onoki and say tsunade or kisame would be more or less on the same level 
Doesn't stop jinton GG off the bat. Now does it 
A person fighting style matters most. Some people are effective against others 
Gaara has the ability to troll hard . Hidan being faster wont help if he is running on sand . Nothing stops SRA gaara from using the ichibi off the bat 
As a genin with less control of himself he could transform into it at will so the assumption that he can't do it on the fly here is ridiculous 

Gaara can use his sand replacement technique as well which Hidan won't be able to detect either . Gaara sand cloning tricked the 2nd mizukage 
When he was younger his replacement technique fooled lee as well as even the spectators . Gai didn't see when gaara replaced himself when watching from the sidelines .  the field will become sand from the get go at which point Hidan dies 

Gaara can make more sand if gaara was limited to his gourd sand he will loose but in an open field he can make so much more sand quickly  . Hidan can't avoid the tsunami nor can he power through it 
Being at a higher level doesn't mean he can ignore the tsunami 

This isn't bleach people!!


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 24, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Here is where he tanked Kimi. I don't see why cracking matters as he didn't shed any blood.



Um, Kimimaro just tackled Gaara with his bones. Just because Gaara's sand skin can endure a large amount of blunt force doesn't mean that it can survive cutting and piercing hits from Hidan's scythe. It's kind of like Kisame being pierced by Aoba's stone needles and cut by Asuma's Hien, in spite of surviving hits from 6G Gai and Killer Bee. Or just look at Orochimaru tanking KN1 Naruto's chakra fist, yet shedding blood after cutting himself with a kunai. 

Piercing durability =/ blunt force durability. Not to mention, even if Gaara's sand skin was strong enough to tank hits from Hidan's scythe without bleeding out, the Akatsuki 'immortal' could still go for Gaara's eyes instead - which should still be vulnerable and unprotected against cutting or piercing attacks. I don't see how this would be so difficult, considering that Hidan has held his own against opponents much faster and far more skilled than Part I Gaara in CQC. All he has to do is push his scythe through one of the kid's eyes, and well, he's good to go.


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## Icegaze (Aug 24, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Um, Kimimaro just tackled Gaara with his bones. Just because Gaara's sand skin can endure a large amount of blunt force doesn't mean that it can survive cutting and piercing hits from Hidan's scythe. It's kind of like Kisame being pierced by Aoba's stone needles and cut by Asuma's Hien, in spite of surviving hits from 6G Gai and Killer Bee. Or just look at Orochimaru tanking KN1 Naruto's chakra fist, yet shedding blood after cutting himself with a kunai.
> 
> Piercing durability =/ blunt force durability. Not to mention, even if Gaara's sand skin was strong enough to tank hits from Hidan's scythe without bleeding out, the Akatsuki 'immortal' could still go for Gaara's eyes instead - which should still be vulnerable and unprotected against cutting or piercing attacks. I don't see how this would be so difficult, considering that Hidan has held his own against opponents much faster and far more skilled than Part I Gaara in CQC. All he has to do is push his scythe through one of the kid's eyes, and well, he's good to go.



Wrong!!! Kimimaro sharp bones didn't pierce through sand armour despite kimi charge 
No blood was shown so no way a sycthe which is far less durable than kimi bones is getting through
Gaara can just levitate or go ichibi mode the second he feels pressured 

Or use rigged sand clones which on contact turn into sand for desert coffin


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