# The masters vs the sannin



## richard lewis (Apr 18, 2013)

Kakashi and Gai vs Jiraiya and Oro

Location - madara vs gokage
Knowledge - Manga
Distance - 40 meters
Restriction - ET


----------



## Luftwaffles (Apr 18, 2013)

Gai opens up with Hirudora


----------



## Ben B (Apr 18, 2013)

Gated Gai holds SM Jiraiya in check while Kakashi kamui ggs Oro and then both proceed to take out Jiraiya.


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Apr 18, 2013)

It's probably too soon to be having this. 

90% of what we know about Orochimaru is based on Armless Orochimaru, and he has been deemed a threat to EMS Sasuke with his arms back. 

Old Hiruzen has also been called one of the strongest, but didn't know if he could beat Orochimaru. 

With the upcoming events, the Sannin are going to be put on a whole new level.


----------



## Thunder (Apr 18, 2013)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> It's probably too soon to be having this.
> 
> 90% of what we know about Orochimaru is based on Armless Orochimaru, and he has been deemed a threat to EMS Sasuke with his arms back.
> 
> ...



This.

Kishimoto will provide Orochimaru with the necessary feats required to stay relevant in the upcoming battles. And any "boost" Orochimaru receives effects the portrayal of the Sannin as a whole, since we're suppose to view them as being close in power to one another. 

The Masters have only surpassed the Sannin in panel time.


----------



## richard lewis (Apr 18, 2013)

Thunder said:


> This.
> 
> Kishimoto will provide Orochimaru with the necessary feats required to stay relevant in the upcoming battles. And any "boost" Orochimaru receives effects the portrayal of the Sannin as a whole, since we're suppose to view them as being close in power to one another.
> 
> The Masters have only surpassed the Sannin in panel time.



For now this is simply going by current feats.


----------



## Magician (Apr 19, 2013)

Kamui GG.


----------



## Thunder (Apr 19, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> For now this is simply going by current feats.



If we only go by what was shown and ignore portrayal and all that, then sure, the Masters could pull out a win if they start in a big way (i.e. _Kamui_ and _Hachimon_).


----------



## αce (Apr 19, 2013)

> 90% of what we know about Orochimaru is based on Armless Orochimaru, and *he has been deemed a threat to EMS Sasuke with his arms back.*



Except this never happened. In fact, the exact opposite was stated by Orochimaru himself. What manga am I reading? It isn't the same one you are.


----------



## Santoryu (Apr 19, 2013)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> With the upcoming events, the Sannin are going to be put on a whole new level.





Thunder said:


> This.
> 
> Kishimoto will provide Orochimaru with the necessary feats required to stay relevant in the upcoming battles. And any "boost" Orochimaru receives effects the portrayal of the Sannin as a whole, since we're suppose to view them as being close in power to one another.
> 
> The Masters have only surpassed the Sannin in panel time.



I'm not sure how this applies to every Sannin, Orochimaru is the only Sannin who's active at the moment-he's been boosted by Hashi's cells from what I understand. We've seen both Tsunade and Jiraiya go all out, and the Sannin title was handed down to them when they got taken out by Hanzo years ago. Team 7 (excluding Kakashi) parallel the Sannin, and it's not like Sakura is around Naruto/Sasuke's level. Orochimaru is a enigma, and it's premature to say that the Sannin as a whole will be on a whole new level once  Orochimaru gets some more feats.


----------



## Alex Payne (Apr 19, 2013)

Orochimaru with Zetsu-body and mastered Edo Tensei(full power) is significantly stronger his fellow teammates. 

On the actual fight - I see Masters winning 6/10. Mainly because of lack of knowledge on Kamui and Kamui/Gates being available from the get-go. While Sage Mode activation takes time. Masters know fully well about Sannin reputation so I see them going all out right from the start. Asa Kujaku and Hirudora are too overwhelming for Jiraiya, especially if is in process of preping SM(unusable hands). Orochimaru can tank it via oral rebirth or use Rashomon to protect J-Man and himself. Both variants makes him vulnerable to be Kamui'd. With current level of Kamui full-body warp is too fast for Oro to handle. 

There is going to be a clusterfuck at the beginning. With Gai having the most powerful attacks and Kakashi having the most lethal+fastest. Sannins are likely to employ summons and other area-control moves(Yomi Numa/Mandara no Jin). Still, masters are to fast for summons and each of them has moves to one-shot/heavily damage them. Not to mention that standing on summons makes them an ideal target for Hirudora. Yomi Numa is evaded/diffused. MnJ is countered by Asa Kujaku or Raiden. It is possible for Masters to be overwhelmed though. Hence my 6/10 estimation. Depending on exact opening moves and countermeasures. We don't know how IC J-Man and Oro fight together. And while they have hype - Kakashi and Gai have solid teamwork feats. 

Imo most of the times I see one of the Sannin dying before other uses his trump(SM/Yamata). While Masters are still in decent shape. But there is still chance of remaining Sannin winning. Especially Yamata Oro. Kakashi would need to Kamui snipe him which would be extremely difficult(and Oro might not even come out) or take a big chunk of Yamata where he thinks Oro is(which is also extremely difficult). SM Jiraiya is less dangerous due to Gai being relevant and Kamui more easily used. Potential last Gate aside, Yamata would lol at Gai.

Masters are currently roughly on the same level as Original Oro/J-Man in my opinion. Orochimaru is a horrible matchup for Gai though.


----------



## Empathy (Apr 19, 2013)

Going all out at the start because they recognize the danger of their adversary is a fine strategy that Kakashi nor Gai have never employed ever. Akatsuki can be thought of as roughly a scary title as Sannin, but Gai was fine facing two Akatsuki members in base. He faced what he thought was another one in full later and still only opened _Hachimon_ when his team was drowning to death. You could argue his final encounter with Kisame, but he started in the _Keimon_ so he could catch up to Kisame. He started with it activated against Obito as well, and only brought out his two bigger attacks in defense. Kakashi's reluctance to use _Kamui_ is even worse if I must go into detail. The idea that the Sannin will be immediately overwhelmed with _Kamui_, _Asa Kujaku_, and _Hirudora_ before they have time to mount any sort of defense and ascend into higher forms is ridiculous.


----------



## Luftwaffles (Apr 19, 2013)

Empathy said:


> Going all out at the start because they recognize the danger of their adversary is a fine strategy that Kakashi nor Gai have never employed ever. Akatsuki can be thought of as roughly a scary title as Sannin, but Gai was fine facing two Akatsuki members in base. He faced what he thought was another one in full later and still only opened _Hachimon_ when his team was drowning to death. You could argue his final encounter with Kisame, but he started in the _Keimon_ so he could catch up to Kisame. He started with it activated against Obito as well, and only brought out his two bigger attacks in defense. Kakashi's reluctance to use _Kamui_ is even worse if I must go into detail. The idea that the Sannin will be immediately overwhelmed with _Kamui_, _Asa Kujaku_, and _Hirudora_ before they have time to mount any sort of defense and ascend into higher forms is ridiculous.


Having to face 1 Akatsuki at a time isn't as dumb as facing the 3 SENNIN at the same time. Seeing all 3 of them at the same time, the Masters KNOW they are outmatched. Kakashi was going to use his strongest move on Oro when the manga first started...so yeah...all 3 would mean immediate Kamui and Gates opening.


----------



## Alex Payne (Apr 19, 2013)

Kakashi used his best available jutsu against Orochimaru in P1. Even before the battle started.


----------



## Empathy (Apr 19, 2013)

It's two Sannin, Jiraiya and Orochimaru, Deus ex Shinobi. Being prepared to use _Raikiri_ on Orochimaru in Part I is different than being prepared to immediately use _Kamui_ on him. Kakashi with back-up has shown to use that back-up effectively to conserve chakra and he has never used _Kamui_ outside of necessity.


----------



## Alex Payne (Apr 19, 2013)

In Part 1 Kakashi was able to use only 4 Raikiri before running out of chakra. That makes it comparable to current Kamui usage. Yet he still activated the jutsu just by seeing Orochimaru getting near. 

Yeah, and Kakashi was totally conserving chakra like against Tobi.


----------



## richard lewis (Apr 19, 2013)

Empathy said:


> Going all out at the start because they recognize the danger of their adversary is a fine strategy that Kakashi nor Gai have never employed ever. Akatsuki can be thought of as roughly a scary title as Sannin, but Gai was fine facing two Akatsuki members in base. He faced what he thought was another one in full later and still only opened _Hachimon_ when his team was drowning to death. You could argue his final encounter with Kisame, but he started in the _Keimon_ so he could catch up to Kisame. He started with it activated against Obito as well, and only brought out his two bigger attacks in defense. Kakashi's reluctance to use _Kamui_ is even worse if I must go into detail. The idea that the Sannin will be immediately overwhelmed with _Kamui_, _Asa Kujaku_, and _Hirudora_ before they have time to mount any sort of defense and ascend into higher forms is ridiculous.



I agree with what your saying to a certain extent, I think both the masters and the sannin will start off in base testing each other out "especially oro who is very cocky". Base kakashi and gai should be able to keep up with base Oro and jiraiya just fine. but once the sannin get serious and start using boss summons, kakashi and gai are going to pull out their ace card immediately "kamui/gates". Knowing who there opponents are kakashi and gai wouldn't give the sannin a chance to get the upper hand. 

Also it should be noted that against tobi kakashi was ready to use kamui immediately, and he attempted to do the same to the Gedo Mazo. SO it's not a stretch to think that he would try to kamui the sannin right off the bat.

And the sannins reputation deff exceeds that of akatsuki. Kakashi thought it was crazy that jiraiya took on pain by himself, do you really think he would hold back against a guy like that? and oro is the man that attacked the village and killed hiruzen. so kakashi and gai will not underestimate them.


----------



## Luftwaffles (Apr 19, 2013)

> And the sannins reputation deff exceeds that of akatsuki. Kakashi thought it was crazy that jiraiya took on pain by himself, do you really think he would hold back against a guy like that? and oro is the man that attacked the village and killed hiruzen. so kakashi and gai will not underestimate them.


This. +reps...I totally forgot.



Empathy said:


> It's two Sannin, Jiraiya and Orochimaru, Deus ex Shinobi. Being prepared to use _Raikiri_ on Orochimaru in Part I is different than being prepared to immediately use _Kamui_ on him. Kakashi with back-up has shown to use that back-up effectively to conserve chakra and he has never used _Kamui_ outside of necessity.


My bad, I thought it was three. It doesn't matter IMO tho, Kakashi would use Kamui if needed to against the Sennin, seeing they are that damn strong.


----------



## Empathy (Apr 19, 2013)

alex payne said:


> In Part 1 Kakashi was able to use only 4 Raikiri before running out of chakra. That makes it comparable to current Kamui usage. Yet he still activated the jutsu just by seeing Orochimaru getting near.
> 
> Yeah, and Kakashi was totally conserving chakra like against Tobi.



It makes the chakra consumption comparable, indeed (there's still eyesight deterioration, among other things). But _Kamui_ is _Kamui_ and _Raikiri_ is _Raikiri_. Saying Kakashi would immediately use _Kamui_ (his best jutsu) against Orochimaru because he ran scared and was prepared to use _Raikiri_ (his best jutsu then) years ago is silly. Kakashi is considerably stronger now and has faced people around and even above Orochimaru's level. He's strong enough to face Orochimaru and not play his best card immediately out of fear. If you are to determine Kakashi's reliance on _Kamui_, then one must analyze the circumstances of it's previous usages to conclude it's probability; not analyze his leniency to use a different jutsu three years ago. Kakashi only resolved to use _Kamui_ against Deidara when he had, "_no choice_," left to save the Kazekage. 

The same is the case when he warped Deidara's _Jibaku Bunshin_. The ultimatum that was that he, and everyone else would die. He was prepared to use it only to save himself and Team 10 from Kakuzu's blast. He used on it on Deva's nail and Asura's missile to save himself and Chouji, respectively; not to stop two recognizably big threats like Akatsuki members. He used it on Sasuke's _Susanoo_ arrows when it was his, "_only option_." Your Tobi scan is a good counterexample (and the only example) of Kakashi resolving to use _Kamui_ solely out of murderous intent. I consider it very similar to the Orochimaru example from Part I, where he recognized the vast disparity between himself and his adversary (in this case Madara), and realized it would be wasting time with anything less.

I will point out that Kakashi thought Tobi was the strongest Uchiha to ever live, Madara, and recognized the threat he would pose in the future. He was prepared to risk incapacitation and leave his body to Sakura in order to prevent him from escaping, though he had Naruto and Sakura there to deal with Sasuke and Zetsu. His usage in the current war is him going all out due to the severity of the situation. He was fighting a battle that would determine the fate of the world and he was their only means to touch their adversary (who happens to be his dead childhood friend). People fail to recognize the circumstances of the situation and assume Kakashi would resort to _Kamui_ early just because he recognizes his opponent as a powerful high tier. Kakashi always analyzes a situation pragmatically and would use his best card when necessary.



richard lewis said:


> I agree with what your saying to a certain extent, I think both the masters and the sannin will start off in base testing each other out "especially oro who is very cocky". Base kakashi and gai should be able to keep up with base Oro and jiraiya just fine. but once the sannin get serious and start using boss summons, kakashi and gai are going to pull out their ace card immediately "kamui/gates". Knowing who there opponents are kakashi and gai wouldn't give the sannin a chance to get the upper hand.
> 
> Also it should be noted that against tobi kakashi was ready to use kamui immediately, and he attempted to do the same to the Gedo Mazo. SO it's not a stretch to think that he would try to kamui the sannin right off the bat.
> 
> And the sannins reputation deff exceeds that of akatsuki. Kakashi thought it was crazy that jiraiya took on pain by himself, do you really think he would hold back against a guy like that? and oro is the man that attacked the village and killed hiruzen. so kakashi and gai will not underestimate them.



I'm glad you agree with me, richard lewis, even if it's only to a certain extent. 

I had an answer prepared for when Kakashi was going to immediately warp Tobi and I addressed to alex payne in my rebuttal above. I also refuted your point about Kakashi's performance during the war. I'd appreciate it if you guys could not bring up the same points so I don't have to repeat myself. It is _absolutely_ a stretch to say he would try _Kamui_ right off the bat. The only time he would ever try that is if he thought his opponents were as strong as Madara Uchiha and were behind the Kyuubi attack. Sannin, Akatsuki, and Kage all generally mean the same thing (formidable adversary, most likely Kage-level). Tsunade, a Sannin, is also the Hokage and Orochimaru was an Akatsuki member. Kakashi took on the same Pain (also an Akatsuki member) that killed Jiraiya, who he was so amazed by, and he still did not immediately use _Kamui_ against them. It's splitting hairs putting either title above the other.


----------



## Luftwaffles (Apr 19, 2013)

It would be nice to know the mindset, still IMO I still feel Kakashi would opt for immediate Kamui, he knows how dangerous Oro is. This is the guy who tried to destroy the village, a missin-nin, a criminal, Akatsuki, subordinate to Kabuto, Edo Tensei user...yeah..enough reasons to do so.


----------



## richard lewis (Apr 19, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> It would be nice to know the mindset, still IMO I still feel Kakashi would opt for immediate Kamui, he knows how dangerous Oro is. This is the guy who tried to destroy the village, a missin-nin, a criminal, Akatsuki, subordinate to Kabuto, Edo Tensei user...yeah..enough reasons to do so.



The mindset is IC, I dont think kakashi would go for kamui immediately but I think he would use it very early on especially if the sannin start using boss summons.


----------



## Empathy (Apr 19, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> It would be nice to know the mindset, still IMO I still feel Kakashi would opt for immediate Kamui, he knows how dangerous Oro is. This is the guy who tried to destroy the village, a missin-nin, a criminal, Akatsuki, subordinate to Kabuto, Edo Tensei user...yeah..enough reasons to do so.



Do you have any evidence? The only time Kakashi opted for immediate _Kamui_ was when he was trying to prevent who he thought was the strongest Uchiha ever, Madara (who he also thought was behind the Kyuubi attack), from escaping. Plenty of the adversaries Kakashi's faced since then have very impressive resumes as well.


*Deidara*
Attempted to destroy a village (just like Orochimaru)
Missing-nin (like Orochimaru)
Criminal (like Orochimaru)
Akatsuki member (like Orochimaru)
Defeated a Kazekage (Orochimaru did, too) 



*Kakuzu*
Killed the village elders and took their hearts
Fought the Shodai Hokage and lived
Both he and Orochimaru are immortal
Missing-nin (like Orochimaru)
Criminal (like Orochimaru)
Akatsuki member (like Orochimaru)



*Pain*
Was attempting to destroy the village, like Orochimaru, and succeeded
Killed Jiraiya, a fellow Sannin to Orochimaru
Missing-nin (like Orochimaru)
Criminal (like Orochimaru)
Akatsuki member (like Orochimaru)



*Sasuke*
Killed Danzo, the active Hokage and Hiruzen's peer
Missing-nin (like Orochimaru
Criminal (like Orochimaru)
Affiliated with Akatsuki (like Orochimaru)
Subordinate to Kabuto (like Orochimaru)


Many of them have plenty in common with the things you listed about Orochimaru, yet none of them warranted immediate _Kamui_ usage.


----------



## Remsengan (Apr 19, 2013)

Thunder and Empathy are correct here.  The whole "Kamui GG" thing has never been reflected in the manga and has not once been the sole factor in a win for Kakashi.  He has always needed backup or had the luxury of being out of focus so he could prep the MS...and even when he could use it properly, he still needed the Naruto+Kyuubi combo to finish Tobi off.

The only thing that matters is how they react to an MS jutsu they have no knowledge about.  I suspect Jman will resort to clones, which is an adequate response...but it still leaves Orochimaru vulnerable.


----------



## Thunder (Apr 19, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> I'm not sure how this applies to every Sannin, Orochimaru is the only Sannin who's active at the moment-he's been boosted by Hashi's cells from what I understand. We've seen both Tsunade and Jiraiya go all out, and the Sannin title was handed down to them when they got taken out by Hanzo years ago. Team 7 (excluding Kakashi) parallel the Sannin, and it's not like Sakura is around Naruto/Sasuke's level. Orochimaru is a enigma, and it's premature to say that the Sannin as a whole will be on a whole new level once  Orochimaru gets some more feats.



[FONT=&quot]Team 7 may share some similarities with the Sannin, but Team 7 isn't based on the Sansukumi relationship (Snake > Toad > Slug); that's how they differ from the Sannin. 

It's  premature to say that the Masters have already surpassed the Sannin  when we've only seen the Masters go all out thus far.  We still don't have a full  grasp on what an Orochimaru can do when his arms aren't sealed. And even  though Orochimaru has a Senju body now it shouldn't be too hard to  figure out what he's capable of without the boost. We just have to be reasonable.
[/FONT]


----------



## Santoryu (Apr 19, 2013)

Thunder said:


> [FONT=&quot]Team 7 may share some similarities with the Sannin, but Team 7 isn't based on the Sansukumi relationship (Snake > Toad > Slug); that's how they differ from the Sannin.



Well that's true I guess; Tsunade isn't that far off her fellow Sannin, compared to Sakura who is miles behind Naruto/Sasuke in terms of combat.



> It's  premature to say that the Masters have already surpassed the Sannin  when we've only seen the Masters go all out thus far.


Yes, but we've seen 2/3 of the three  Sannin go all out, so we've got a decent understanding of their power; concluding that Kakashi is superior to two of them at this stage is not premature. As for Oro....



> We still don't have a full  grasp on what an Orochimaru can do when his arms aren't sealed. And even  though Orochimaru has a Senju body now it shouldn't be too hard to  figure out what he's capable of without the boost. We just have to be reasonable.





> [/FONT]


Pretty much, which is why I said he's an enigma, he could prove to be much stronger than the likes of Kakashi (I doubt it) but it's establishd that Orochimaru is an extremely powerful shinobi even without these upgraded-cells, so him being by far the strongest Sannin is very possible, and if he is, I don't think it puts Jiraiya and Tsunade on a higher pedestal than they already are-they weren't revived and granted new power ups. 

Prior to Orochimaru's revival, I believed that Jiraiya was the most powerful Sannin, but I suppose that each Sannin possesses strengths and specialties that compensate for whatever shortcoming they may possess. Tsunade is by far the best support ninja out of the three, but the others are better in combat IMO.


----------



## Luftwaffles (Apr 19, 2013)

Empathy said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. *Deidara*
I need YOU to give me canonical PROOF that Kakashi knew ANYTHING about Deidara's past or history. All villages keep their info secrete, which is why they send rounin-hunter nins to erase the threat before any info is leaked. 
Kakashi had no knowledge of Deidara or his abilities, all he knew was that he was Akatsuki. Akatsuki is a criminal organization, that we know...but people like Kakashi like to check out the enemies skillset and then proceed to capture/interrogate. Kakashi had little mastery of Kamui at the time, and it could've cost him the match if he missed.

2. *Kakuzu*
Same as above. Kakashi seemed SURPRISED when Kakuzu stated he was as old as Hashi himself, this leads me to believe he barely knew the guy. Like I said, most villages don't give info on their missing-nin like that. Kakashi also had to baby sit Team Asuma, he was the ONLY jounin shinobi in the fight...and I'm pretty sure he LET Naruto face Kakuzu. Either PnJ or he wanted to see what Naruto had learned.

3. *Pein*
Jiraiya left a coded message implying the real one isn't within the Paths. Capture before killing is the motto here. They had to FIND the real culprit and Kakashi started off the fight PROTECTING Iruka and then proceeded to gather more info for the Hokage/Intel team.

4. *Sasuke*
You really can't be serious. A master can't kill his student...even if that student has fallen from grace. Ala Hiruzen.


Most of these fighters are on PAR with Kakashi 1v1, not stronger. Orochimaru and Jiraiya, with the knowledge he has...he knows he isn't on thie level. Even with Gai next to him. Naruto knows what Oro is capable as well as a SM user.

Like it or not, my opinion will NOT change to accommodate yours. I believe with the knowledge he has, Kakashi would try a Kamui snipe from the beginning, and Gai would go Gates. 

Which leads to my verdict. Kakashi and Gai win 7/10 high difficulty.


----------



## Thunder (Apr 20, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> Well that's true I guess; Tsunade isn't that far off her fellow Sannin, compared to Sakura who is miles behind Naruto/Sasuke in terms of combat.



Yeah, Kishimoto started developing Sakura then he just . . . stopped. Sakura hasn't even surpassed Tsunade yet while Naruto and Sasuke have clearly surpassed Jiraiya and Orochimaru respectively. 



> Yes, but we've seen 2/3 of the three Sannin go all out, so we've got a decent understanding of their power; concluding that Kakashi is superior to two of them at this stage is not premature. As for Oro....
> 
> Pretty much, which is why I said he's an enigma, he could prove to be much stronger than the likes of Kakashi (I doubt it) but it's establishd that Orochimaru is an extremely powerful shinobi even without these upgraded-cells, so him being by far the strongest Sannin is very possible, and if he is, I don't think it puts Jiraiya and Tsunade on a higher pedestal than they already are-they weren't revived and granted new power ups.
> 
> Prior to Orochimaru's revival, I believed that Jiraiya was the most powerful Sannin, but I suppose that each Sannin possesses strengths and specialties that compensate for whatever shortcoming they may possess. Tsunade is by far the best support ninja out of the three, but the others are better in combat IMO.


My only gripe with your reasoning is an argument centered _solely_ on feats will ultimately prove to be an incomplete one, because it ignores other important information provided by the author. In my opinion feats aren't required to tell us that Sannin > Masters since the Sannin have been portrayed as being a cut above everyone else in Konoha, bar some notable exceptions like Naruto. Sometimes feats don't align with a character's hype and portrayal for whatever reason (e.g. poor match-ups, handicaps during battle, lack of time to give characters a legitimate battle, and so on). 

To give an extreme example: consider if Gai and Kisame's last battle was the first time we saw Kisame go all out, period. Despite the various hype Kisame received throughout the manga (i.e. ex-member of the Seven Swordsman, Akatsuki member, bijū without a tail) would readers _not _view Kisame in a less positive light then they do now because they're missing some feats? 

That said, I _do_ understand why this line of thinking can sometimes prove to be problematic for a section like the Battledome: if we rely too much on hype and portrayal to decide match-ups many of the outcomes will be obvious before they even start, and that kills off potential debate. Let’s face it: when we _don't _know all the facts debates here are usually more enjoyable. It’s part of the reason why interest in the section is fading right now: many of the old, controversial match-ups (which kept regulars debating / theorizing for years) have finally been resolved. 

So, it really depends on what you're looking to accomplish here. If you visit the Battledome in order to engage in debate for fun, or to fulfill a certain agenda (i.e. defend / downplay certain characters), you can afford to be more selective with the information you incorporate in your arguments. But if you're truly serious about determining the most likely victor in a hypothetical setting, I would suggest utilizing a healthy mix of feats, hype, and portrayal to make your case. It's a more holistic approach. 

_____________________​
Don’t get me wrong: I definitely believe the Masters are strong in their own right, and have solidified themselves as Kage level shinobi. For Kakashi this was made clear when he was picked as a Hokage candidate. After all, is not the Kage themselves who determine what Kage level is? That’s why I’ve never understood why some posters insist that Tsunade isn’t Kage level when she’s the Hokage.

With Hachimon, Gai is clearly Kage level. If the level of  is surpassed in Shimon (eight gate), logically Gai should hold the power of your average Kage while in Kyōmon (seventh gate)_, _and probably Keimon (sixth gate) as well_._

So, I wouldn't say the Masters would get stomped by the Sannin or anything; I just don't think they will win in the end. Perhaps the Masters will surpass the Sannin in the future, but Kishimoto will be explicit on the matter when they do.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Apr 20, 2013)

Gai would actually punch the fuck out of Jiraiya. His summons cannot catch Gai, way too fast for that, whereas Gai can jump on the summons, in a similar fashion to Deva vs Naruto. Gai would run circles around Jiraiya, and just Hirudora him.

Kamui would just take out Orochimaru. He isn't fast, nor does he hide when he fights.


----------



## joshhookway (Apr 20, 2013)

Kamui Oro to another dimension. Gangrape Kamui gg Jiraiya.


----------



## Jad (Aug 4, 2014)

Once again, instead of re-creating the thread, thought I just bump this one. Is that bad Mods?


----------



## kingcools (Aug 4, 2014)

unrestricted guy solos of course, he dies but kakashi remains alive and thus team masters wins.
10/10, there cannot be a debate about this seeing gais performance against juubidara


----------



## JuicyG (Aug 4, 2014)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> It's probably too soon to be having this.
> 
> 90% of what we know about Orochimaru is based on Armless Orochimaru, and he has been deemed a threat to EMS Sasuke with his arms back.
> 
> ...






I agree. 

Whether you want to agree with this or not. Each of the sannin are Kage-Level ninja. So adding three Kage together who know each others abilities very well, and once were a team, you now have a deadly force to deal with here.

No other 3 kage level ninja would be able to work together as well as the Sannin. This gives them a bonus over any opponent from the rip.

I would give the Masters this fight only because of Gai and his gates. 

If we gave the Sannin full knowledge here and restricted the 8th gate, I would almost go as far as to say the Sannin would win this fight.


----------



## SSMG (Aug 4, 2014)

Both guy and kakashi have reaction feats and speed feats of keeping up with kcm/bm naruto.  Likewise oro and jman speed feats are far below this tier so guy and kakashi should land the first hits.
they both have multiple ohko moves that they can land.

if guy goes gates he solos.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Aug 4, 2014)

Gai enters the 8th gate and proceeds to beat Jiraiya and Orochimaru into past with Tsunade as a baseball bat


----------



## Turrin (Aug 4, 2014)

8th gate guy probably forces a draw
actually wnever mind gai would probably go 8th  gate before allowing kakashi to die so the end of the day kakashi would be the last one standing


----------



## Jad (Aug 5, 2014)

Hang on. Gai needs to access the 8th Gate? This is the Sannin (Orochimaru and Jiraiya) vs. War Arc Gai and Kakashi [thread was made in 2013].


----------



## DaVizWiz (Aug 5, 2014)

Kakashi is superior to Orochimaru, Gai is superior to Jiraiya. 

Not sure why people thought it was the other way around. 

AT cannot be reacted to or guarded against- it blitzed Edo Madara and destroyed his V3 Susano. 

Kamui cannot be reacted to or guarded against- at any juncture. 

To suggest Jiraiya and Orochimaru have a chance here is utter folly. 7th Gated Gai had Juubidara backing up and Gaara in awe, MS Kakashi sniped off a GM arm. 

Inferior to Sannin? Lol please.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 5, 2014)

Jad said:


> Hang on. Gai needs to access the 8th Gate? This is the Sannin (Orochimaru and Jiraiya) vs. War Arc Gai and Kakashi [thread was made in 2013].


Yup and nothing has change. Gai still needs 8th-Gate to win.


----------



## Jad (Aug 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yup and nothing has change. Gai still needs 8th-Gate to win.



I think I'm going to go with DaVizWiz assessment. Seems pretty soid, Jiraiya has nothing on 7th Gate Gai accept your dubious "Hide in the Shadow" technique, which seems like you and probably someone else I haven't met agree with. And with the amount of people saying Tsunade can knock out Orochimaru, I don't see why Gai is any lesser in doing so.


----------



## Bonly (Aug 5, 2014)

The masters should win this more times then not. As far as we know Jiraiya and Orochi don't reallly have knowledge on Kakashi being able to use Kamui and if they do then it'll be knowledge on it when he didn't have to much control over it. So when Kakashi goes to use it either of the Sannin, they are gonna be screwed and that should tip the scales in the Masters favor when they are already close to the Sannin.


----------



## iJutsu (Aug 5, 2014)

8th Gate Gai wipes the sannin off the face of earth. Kakashi just chills. Even though Gai will die, having Kakashi alive and unharmed makes them the default winner.


----------



## Mercurial (Aug 5, 2014)

8th Gate is absolutely not needed. Kakashi warps Orochimaru away in a millisecond while Gai blitzes and stomps Jiraiya's ass with 6th or 7th Gate. Anyone of the Masters can solo.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 5, 2014)

Jad said:


> I think I'm going to go with DaVizWiz assessment. Seems pretty soid, Jiraiya has nothing on 7th Gate Gai accept your dubious "Hide in the Shadow" technique, which seems like you and probably someone else I haven't met agree with. And with the amount of people saying Tsunade can knock out Orochimaru, I don't see why Gai is any lesser in doing so.


There is plenty in the story to tell you that the Sannin would win. The strongest Gai defeated was a Kisame who was a bit nerfed w/o Samehada and Gai was probably the worst match up for. Jiriaya on the other hand can beat Pain Rikudo w/ knowledge. He surely has knowledge on Kakashi and Gai. Kakashi also can't even imagine how Jiriaya performed so well against Pain during the Pain-Arc, and while Kakashi improved since then, I doubt a stamina bump is suppose to completely alter the vast difference in strength indicated to be between Jiriaya and Kakashi in the Pain Arc; with Gai being around Kakashi's "level" before the 8th-Gate, I doubt he is suppose to be seen as stronger ether. 

From a "feats" perspective, sure if you ignore Jiriaya's outright counter via Shadow-Manipulation or hiding in Toad Gourd. Or the fact that Kisame survived Gai's 7th-Gate. Or the fact that Gai has no defense against being stopped in his tracks by sound based paralysis. Or the fact that Gai Jiriaya's Needle Jizo forms a steel shell around him and that's before Senjutsu enhance it; stacked on top of SM durability, regen, and Jiriaya's already high durability that allowed him to tank a punch from Tsunade that sent him flying 100m in base. Than sure Gai might be able to pull out a win. However logically Jiriyaa will survive until Gai's Gate attacks runs out and than finish him while he's recovering. 

As for Orochimaru, if Kisame tanked Hirodora than Orochimaru will tank it much more casually, especially since he can also use Roshomon to defend himself, Oral-Rebirth, and Leech all creation.


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 5, 2014)

_Orochimaru sees two eight gated Gai destroying Tsunade and Jiraiya's head with a punch, thinking that this is a shadow clone gated technique, he watches in amazement and regrets not looking for Gai instead of the sauce...

His hypothesis is proven wrong when both Gais disappear and he finds out that this was the afterimage of eight gated Gai's speed. He turns around, shacking, as he feels the hot air evaporating himself, and a red aura surrounding Orochimaru's newest desire...

"Power of Youth trumps Will of fire, bitch" whispers Gai in Oro's ears.

*The screen blacks out and days after, an Anbu discovers Oro's body*_



Dead in amazement.


----------



## Sferr (Aug 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The strongest Gai defeated was a Kisame who was a bit nerfed w/o Samehada and Gai was probably the worst match up for.


This tells absolutely nothing as Gai vs Kisame was a stomp. 



Turrin said:


> Jiriaya on the other hand can beat Pain Rikudo w/ knowledge.


Irrelevant to Gai vs Jiraiya.



Turrin said:


> He surely has knowledge on Kakashi and Gai. Kakashi also can't even imagine how Jiriaya performed so well against Pain during the Pain-Arc, and while Kakashi improved since then, I doubt a stamina bump is suppose to completely alter the vast difference in strength indicated to be between Jiriaya and Kakashi in the Pain Arc; with Gai being around Kakashi's "level" before the 8th-Gate, I doubt he is suppose to be seen as stronger ether.


Again, irrelevant to Gai vs Jiraiya as well as to Gai vs Pain. Gai being Kakashi's level before 8th Gate is a very questionable statement. 


Turrin said:


> From a "feats" perspective, sure if you ignore Jiriaya's outright counter via Shadow-Manipulation or hiding in Toad Gourd.


And you ignore that Gai then can just simply turn off the Gates and wait till Jiraiya comes out.



Turrin said:


> Or the fact that Kisame survived Gai's 7th-Gate.


Not only Kisame's survival was Gai's intention, we have an updated feat of Hirudora vs Susanoo. It was shown with Asa Kujaku that Gai can make his techniques weaker and stronger. Asa Kujaku that Gai used against Kisame clone was massively weaker than the one he used against the shark tsunami.


----------



## SSMG (Aug 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yup and nothing has change. Gai still needs 8th-Gate to win.


Guy and kakashis war arc feats puts them way above the sannin. oro got blitzd by 4tk naruto and jman almost died against this same orm.. base guy and MS Kakashi can react and keep up with bm and kcm mode naruto. to suggest oro and jman dont get instantly blitzd is pretty folly.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Aug 5, 2014)

> As for Orochimaru, if Kisame tanked Hirodora than Orochimaru will tank it much more casually, especially since he can also use Roshomon to defend himself, Oral-Rebirth, and Leech all creation.


Considering it busted V3 Susano- Orochimaru is not tanking it. He couldn't tank Sasuke's Chidori which fodderized his True Form and Rusty Tsunade knocked him the fuck out with two punches. 

He isn't using Roshomon, Edo Madara couldn't defend himself from a surprise AT- Orochimaru is summoning gates from close range without knowledge on AT? Sounds probable..... 

Now you're wanking beyond recognition. Orochimaru wouldn't be able to react to 7th Gated Gai at any juncture, whether it be his movement or Afternoon Tiger initiation- it would be in his face before he perceived it's creation, exploding.

Lastly, Kisame's super durability is now inferior to Orochimaru's regeneration-based durability? Dude tanked AT and V2 Lariat, Gated Gai Punch, KCM Naruto punch, Rock Crushing Elbow, and a thrown Katana by Killer Bee with the flesh of his arm.

Base Kabuto performed surgery on his mid-section and Itachi side swiped his hand clean off with his kunai, without looking. Tanking AT? Please dude, the teeth of the construct literally rip his body apart beyond repair and the ensuing explosion vaporizes him into pink mist.


----------



## Santoryu (Aug 5, 2014)

Jad said:


> Hang on. Gai needs to access the 8th Gate? .



Absolutely not. I'm all for opinions, but to insinuate Gai would have to resort to that whilst being backed up by Kakashi is inane.

These guys are relevant in the final arc, against the likes of Obito/Sage Madara. There is no reason to elaborate why they convincingly defeat the Sannin.


----------



## richard lewis (Aug 5, 2014)

Santoryu said:


> Absolutely not. I'm all for opinions, but to insinuate Gai would have to resort to that whilst being backed up by Kakashi is inane.
> 
> These guys are relevant in the final arc, against the likes of Obito/Sage Madara. There is no reason to elaborate why they convincingly defeat the Sannin.



Eh to be fair neither of them contributed at all against juubito, and kakashi didn't contribute all that much against Madara either "especially after he got his eye removed". The sannin most likely win purely due to a numbers advantage, take away one of the sannin and make it 2 on 2 and the master win mid-high diff.


----------



## Thunder (Aug 5, 2014)

Why was this bumped?

Anyway, taking into account all that's transpired in the manga since last year, I'm going to say the "masters" have better odds of winning than I originally thought. _Kamui_ is a threat to either Sannin, and at this point, Kakashi is proficient enough with the Mangekyō Sharingan to use it effectively. And I seriously doubt Kakashi would hold it back against foes of this caliber for very long.

Then there's Gai with _Hachimon: Shimon. _It won't be activated unless there's serious trouble, though. In the event Gai resorts to red steam the outcome is clear: with power enough to pressure Rikudō Madara while even the collective Hokage couldn't anything but watch, Gai absolutely slaughters both Jiraiya and Orochimaru regardless of what they have out on the field or what mode they're in. 

If it comes down to that the match would technically end in a draw, however. If Kakashi dies before Gai anyway.


----------



## StickaStick (Aug 5, 2014)

8th-Gate rape stomp.


----------



## JuicyG (Aug 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> There is plenty in the story to tell you that the Sannin would win. The strongest Gai defeated was a Kisame who was a bit nerfed w/o Samehada and Gai was probably the worst match up for. Jiriaya on the other hand can beat Pain Rikudo w/ knowledge. He surely has knowledge on Kakashi and Gai. Kakashi also can't even imagine how Jiriaya performed so well against Pain during the Pain-Arc, and while Kakashi improved since then, I doubt a stamina bump is suppose to completely alter the vast difference in strength indicated to be between Jiriaya and Kakashi in the Pain Arc; with Gai being around Kakashi's "level" before the 8th-Gate, I doubt he is suppose to be seen as stronger ether.
> 
> From a "feats" perspective, sure if you ignore Jiriaya's outright counter via Shadow-Manipulation or hiding in Toad Gourd. Or the fact that Kisame survived Gai's 7th-Gate. Or the fact that Gai has no defense against being stopped in his tracks by sound based paralysis. Or the fact that Gai Jiriaya's Needle Jizo forms a steel shell around him and that's before Senjutsu enhance it; stacked on top of SM durability, regen, and Jiriaya's already high durability that allowed him to tank a punch from Tsunade that sent him flying 100m in base. Than sure Gai might be able to pull out a win. However logically Jiriyaa will survive until Gai's Gate attacks runs out and than finish him while he's recovering.
> 
> As for Orochimaru, if Kisame tanked Hirodora than Orochimaru will tank it much more casually, especially since he can also use Roshomon to defend himself, Oral-Rebirth, and Leech all creation.







THIS ^^^^^^^^ 

Sannin underrated for sure


----------



## Jad (Aug 6, 2014)

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAH THIS THREAD. AHHHHHHHHHHHHAHAHAHHAHA. That's all I gotta say.


----------



## Alex Payne (Aug 6, 2014)

Kakashi soloes.


----------



## StickaStick (Aug 6, 2014)

Either Kakashi or Gai soloes


----------



## Mercurial (Aug 6, 2014)

LOOOOOOOOOOL Kakashi foddersolos them.

Anyway, he or Gai could have solod also before than today's chapter. So in that aspect, nothing changed.


----------



## Sorin (Aug 6, 2014)

Now now, let's not get ahead of ourselves. 

It's clear as day that the OP intended to make this war arc Kakashi with just one MS eye. 

Of course he would now solo with min diff, but with only one eye, there's a fight which can go both ways but leaning towards the Masters since Gai will go eight gates eventually. And that's game over for the Saninn. Not to mention the damage done until that point by Hirudora, Asa Kujaku and Kamui.


----------



## Lurko (Aug 6, 2014)

The masters rapeeeeeeeee.


----------



## Monster (Aug 6, 2014)

Kakashi solos.


----------



## Psp123789 (Aug 6, 2014)

Kakashi solos low diff. Lol I still can't believe the BS that just happened.


----------



## Cognitios (Aug 6, 2014)

Kakashi solos low diff
8th Gate Gai solos low diff
Actually both stomp low diff
Shame on you OP
SHAME ON YOU


----------



## Trojan (Aug 6, 2014)

^
Gai will die, so how is that low difficult? 

and actually Jiraiya can use his frog sound based jutsu to make the PS vanish as well.


----------



## Cognitios (Aug 6, 2014)

> Gai will die, so how is that low difficult?


So 8th Gate Gai isn't low diffing Konohamaru?
ck


> and actually Jiraiya can use his frog sound based jutsu to make the PS vanish as well.


Kakashi swipes him with PS before Jiraiya can think to summon ma and pa


----------



## ShinobisWill (Aug 6, 2014)

Kakashi warps himself into Kamui Land to avoid any sound genjutsu.

Even previous Kamui Kakashi (just one eye) could do this.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 6, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> So 8th Gate Gai isn't low diffing Konohamaru?
> ck
> 
> Kakashi swipes him with PS before Jiraiya can think to summon ma and pa



- Using the Final gate is kinda admitting the other team's power. Regardless of that, he will still die
even if he killed konohamaru low difficult or whatever, he is still going to die. 

- possible. I assumed Jman is already in SM.


----------



## Ghost (Aug 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> ^
> Gai will die, so how is that low difficult?



I strap a bomb onto myself, walk up to a guy and blow us up. Was that hard? Not really. Actually easier compared to if I had taken a knife with me and stabbed him to death.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 6, 2014)

again, it does not matter how fast he kill them as HE will suffer from his OWN jutsu. 
and he will end up killed no matter what. Killing the opponent with the 8th gate is NOT guaranteed, but his death is.

We have seen the 7swordsmen going against Dai who was using the 8th gate, and we know for a fact that not all of them got killed and some of them actually survived. 

here, Gai is going to die no matter what, if he killed them, that's great, but it will end up with a tie.
but if they manage to escape, for example, Jiraiya going in side the frog dimension, then all they need is to wait
and Gai will eventually die... 

in both cases, Gai is not surviving the fight...


----------



## richard lewis (Aug 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> again, it does not matter how fast he kill them as HE will suffer from his OWN jutsu.
> and he will end up killed no matter what. Killing the opponent with the 8th gate is NOT guaranteed, but his death is.
> 
> We have seen the 7swordsmen going against Dai who was using the 8th gate, and we know for a fact that not all of them got killed and some of them actually survived.
> ...



Your delusional if you think the sannin can escape from 8th gate gai LMAO, h would rape them. And as long as kakashi is still alive it's not a tie it's a win for the masters.


*Spoiler*: __ 



this is a stomp either way because current kakashi solo's


----------



## ShinobisWill (Aug 6, 2014)

Kakashi or Gai can beat all 3 sannin at once by themselves now  

With low diff.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 6, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> Your delusional if you think the sannin can escape from 8th gate gai LMAO, h would rape them. And as long as kakashi is still alive it's not a tie it's a win for the masters.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I did not say they can for sure, I'm talking about the possibility of it. 
and there is nothing delusional about it as  we have seen weaker characters do it.  

- Yeah but Gai is still going to die in that case.


----------



## Cognitios (Aug 6, 2014)

> - Using the Final gate is kinda admitting the other team's power. Regardless of that, he will still die
> even if he killed konohamaru low difficult or whatever, he is still going to die.


You clearly are having trouble understanding this, so i'll spell it out for you as carefully as I can.
In the battledome nothing matters after the match ends. The Amount of difficulty is based on the ease of which an enemy beats the opponent. I never said Gai, I said 8th Gate gai, who is a rendition of a character. If Gai can beat them in a single punch then yes that is low diff.


> - possible. I assumed Jman is already in SM.


Ma and Pa still need to prep the song, in which time Kakashi smashes with a PS Sword


----------



## richard lewis (Aug 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I did not say they can for sure, I'm talking about the possibility of it.
> and there is nothing delusional about it as  we have seen weaker characters do it.



Gai moves so fast that it bends space and time itself. Considering Juudara couldn't react to his speed I fail to see how the sannin could. They would be dead b4 they could process what's going on. Even an FTG user like tobirama probably couldn't react quick enough to dodge Gai's punches.



Hussain said:


> - Yeahm but Gai is still going to die in that case.


As long as kakashi is still alive then the masters win. If zero sannin remain but one master remains that's a victory not a tie.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 6, 2014)

> Ma and Pa still need to prep the song, in which time Kakashi smashes with a PS Sword



They have Frog Call which does not need prepare time.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 6, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> Gai moves so fast that it bends space and time itself. Considering Juudara couldn't react to his speed I fail to see how the sannin could. They would be dead b4 they could process what's going on. Even an FTG user like tobirama probably couldn't react quick enough to dodge Gai's punches.
> 
> 
> As long as kakashi is still alive then the masters win. If zero sannin remain but one master remains that's a victory not a tie.



- I know how fast he is, I swear to God. 
what I am talking about is a situation like this
avoid susanoo slash

obviously I don't know how those who survived manage to survive, but it's not impossible, and I can guarantee you that those are not as fast as JJ Madara, either but they did it nevertheless. I'm only talking about a POSSIBILITY wether it has 0.000000001% or 99% chance of happening is irrelevant 
it's just not completely impossible. 

- Yes indeed....


----------



## Midnight789 (Aug 6, 2014)

Ben B said:


> Gated Gai holds SM Jiraiya in check while Kakashi kamui ggs Oro and then both proceed to take out Jiraiya.



lol gated Gai holding SM Jiraiya... what exactly can Jiraiya do here... Gai rapes him

Masters take this easily


----------



## Midnight789 (Aug 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> again, it does not matter how fast he kill them as HE will suffer from his OWN jutsu.
> and he will end up killed no matter what. Killing the opponent with the 8th gate is NOT guaranteed, but his death is.
> 
> We have seen the 7swordsmen going against Dai who was using the 8th gate, and we know for a fact that not all of them got killed and some of them actually survived.
> ...




dude u are soooo underestimating Gai... He is not his father!, he is far more powerful.. we don't even know how powerful Gai's father was so why bring it up here? 

it will not end up in a tie because Gai will not need the 8th Gate... simple!! his 7th Gate is far great enough for him to fight and live against the sainin... what attacks would even tough Gai to be exact??? with Kakashi... Gai going into the 7th Gate would be overkill. none of the sainin is reacting to even a 5th Gated Gai.


----------



## Midnight789 (Aug 6, 2014)

JJ Madara could not even react to 7th Gate Gai punches!!!!!!! and Kick!!!!!...... this is a person who man handled all of the Kage Level characters!!!!! 

Gai's speed and brute force is just too much to handle really.


----------



## Bonly (Aug 6, 2014)

Kakashi didn't even need the second eye+PS for the master to win imo butttttt having it does make this a one sided bout.


----------



## richard lewis (Aug 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - I know how fast he is, I swear to God.
> what I am talking about is a situation like this
> avoid susanoo slash
> 
> ...



It should be noted that Dai was only a genin where as Gai is one of kohnoha's strongest jounin. Gai is clearly stronger than his father which would suggest that his version of the 8th gate is much more powerful.


----------



## Thunder (Aug 6, 2014)

Why are people granting Kakashi double _Kamui _and _Perfect Susanō_ here? This thread was made last year and was bumped before the new chapter even came out.

So it's still war arc Kakashi with the singular Mangekyō Sharingan.


----------



## Hero (Aug 7, 2014)

Sannin are absolutely thrashed


----------

