# BM Naruto vs Prime Madara



## Nardo6670 (Feb 9, 2013)

Distance: 50 meters

SOM: IC, to kill

Knowledge: Manga

Restrictions: Scenarios
*
Scenario 1:* BM/FKM Naruto vs Prime Madara(EMS). No Mokuten or Rinnegan. Madara is alive. Madara has his fan.
*
Scenario 2*: BM/FKM Naruto vs Prime Madara with the full 9 tailed Kyubbi summoned. No Mokuten or Rinnegan. Madara has his fan.

If you are going to ask how the hell Naruto is facing the Kyubbi when he already has part of it inside, then just assume Naruto went back in time to fight this version of Madara.

Can BM/FKM Naruto beat a non edo Madara more often than not? This is basically the Madara who fought Hashirama with the feats he's displayed, except for Rinnegan and Mokuten.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2013)

> Scenario 1: BM/FKM Naruto vs Prime Madara(EMS). No Mokuten or Rinnegan. Madara is alive. Madara has his fan.


Naruto roars. Madara dies. 



> Scenario 2: BM/FKM Naruto vs Prime Madara with the full 9 tailed Kyubbi summoned. No Mokuten or Rinnegan. Madara has his fan.


Naruto roars. Madara dies. If Kyuubi attempts to counter the roar with his own, Madara dies worse.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 9, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Naruto roars. Madara dies.
> 
> Naruto roars. Madara dies. If Kyuubi attempts to counter the roar with his own, Madara dies worse.


just like naruto destroyed madara with a roar in canon right? oh wait.

ignoring the idiot above, madara wins both scenarios obviously.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> just like naruto destroyed madara with a roar in canon right? oh wait.
> 
> ignoring the idiot above, madara wins both scenarios obviously.


Oh, you mean the Zombie Madara who was battling kage when Naruto roared?  

Because you have a Madara avatar, EMS and Susano in your name, haven't chosen anyone other than a Uchiha in almost every debate I've witnessed you post in, and because Madara isn't a bijuu rinnegan path worthy of tanking it let's say you're wrong and Madara's clothes, then skin, then fat, then muscle, then bone, then organs, then leftovers are completely transformed into pink-mist by the shock wave.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 9, 2013)

mmm The only problem is the PS, it's really huge I'm not sure if Naruto can deal with it. and with Kurama with him he'll win for sure. (Madara)

1- Madara wins. extremely difficult. 
2- Madara wins. mid difficult.


----------



## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 9, 2013)

Considering that Bijuu Mode Naruto survived a point blank hit from the Juubi's laser with just the loss of a few replaceable chakra tails, I'm pretty confidant that he can take a few PS slashes if they manage to hit him. Which will be hard, considering his speed. 

Then we have the fact that Naruto can create a bunch of shadow clones, which will be an excellent force multiplier. Also, based on feats Perfect Susanoo isn't surviving multiple bijuudamas. 

I think Naruto can take the first scenario with high difficulty.

The second scenario will be more difficult though with Sharingan-controlled Kyuubi fighting BM Naruto. But Naruto with bijuu mode is a lot faster than the full Kyuubi and   has the advantage of intelligence and force multipliers such as shadow clones and chakra arms to make up for the disadvantage in raw power. 

But, he'll have to contend with Madara at the same time, and either one of them alone is a hard fought battle for Naruto. I think this one can go either way, but whoever wins is only winning with extreme difficulty.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 9, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> just like naruto destroyed madara with a roar in canon right? oh wait.
> 
> ignoring the idiot above, madara wins both scenarios obviously.



roar is weaker than Diedara's C1 explosion, I still don't know why people overrated it. @@


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 9, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Oh, you mean the Zombie Madara who was battling kage when Naruto roared?
> 
> Because you have a Madara avatar, EMS and Susano in your name, haven't chosen anyone other than a Uchiha in almost every debate I've witnessed you post in, and* because Madara isn't a bijuu rinnegan path worthy of tanking it let's say you're wrong and Madara's clothes, then skin, then fat, then muscle, then bone, then organs, then leftovers are completely transformed into pink-mist by the shock wave.*


naruto couldve easily done this in canon if its as good as you are wanking it to be. the fact that madaras an edo changes nothing.

the roar wasnt even a feasible tactic against base madara. v2 susano tanks any nonbijudama attacks. PS held its own in a battle where biju level power was constantly being dished out at a higher frequency and magnitude that a biju can put out. it tanks bijudama.

when madara is unrestricted with the kyuubi, its rape.

did i mention that naruto only has 8 minutes in BM? if you think that naruto beats madara in 8 minutes then i dont know what to say.

*@bold*-i will say that just because naruto isnt hashirama, madara automatically stomps him and leaves him in a pool of his own blood just like he did to the kages. problem?


----------



## Bonly (Feb 9, 2013)

In Bijuu Mode tanked the Juubi's laser as well as blocked a Katon from Obito. Based on what EMS Madara has shown, the only thing that can hurt Naruto to put him down in while in BM is this. PS needed to stabilized which could give Naruto time to fire off 5 Bijuudama's at it which might destroy it. As well if it stabilizes in enough time to cut through one(or more) of them then it would likely explode near PS harming/destroying it. Sadly we don't know what durability PS has so hard to go on with what can or can't take it out . Add in Naruto's roar which sent five Bijuu flying along with clones tips it in his favor imo.

I'd favor Naruto more times then not in scenario one. As for scenario two, no clue lol.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 10, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> just like naruto destroyed madara with a roar in canon right? oh wait.
> 
> ignoring the idiot above, madara wins both scenarios obviously.



Going by this logic, KN1 Lee > edo madara > EMS Madara since Madara got kicked in half in canon.



TorJaN said:


> *roar is weaker than Diedara's C1 explosion*, I still don't know why people overrated it. @@


like what is that based on?



Anyways, BM Naruto wins Scenario 1 which is basically BM Naruto vs Perfect Susanoo.  

The size of the actual super bijuudama BM Naruto makes is roughly as big as PS.  Scaling its tanking ability to other susanoos, it does not have the feats to withstand one of those.  

BM Naruto also has the tanking feats to withstand and block multiple slashes from PS considering it blocked the juubi's laserdama at the cost of 6 tails which should be regrowable.

Naruto in his fully transformed state has also shown impressive speed which would allow him to dodge PS slashes at a distance considering the timeframe given for a slash.  Rapidfire bijuudama is also a viable option considering the blast radius of each dama is larger than PS, and thus the attack would do damage.

Finally, Naruto while in BM can use KCM, Sage and Base clones.  The KCM clones have been shown to spam FRS and can now use a bijuurasengan since naruto has gotten the ration correct, and packs of 3 sage clones can also use FRS.

So in scenario 1, Madara with just his PS is going to be up against a smaller target with the speed to avoid his attacks at range, the durability to block multiple hits, and the offensive power to destroy PS in one shot or fire rapid attacks that do good damage to PS.  In addition to all of this, he's going to have to deal with waves of 5 - 18 FRS that can come from all angles.  Naruto should handily win: BY FEATS.

Scenario 2 is iffy.  If Madara can use PS while controlling Kurama indefinitely, he would most likely win as he now has the firepower to stop super bijuudama.  if we scale 50% Kurama's durability feats to its 100% size, then the beast is basically a PS with more mobility, more durability, and waaaaay more firepower.   So if that's the case, I see Madara handily winning Scenario 2.

If Madara can't use his ocular powers while using Kurama, I dont' see him winning this scenario as BM Naruto has equal firepower to Kurama, but more mobility, more durability (because he is not flesh and blood), and can use clones which throw guided FRS (and it only took 1 to incap 50% kurama for a while).


----------



## iJutsu (Feb 10, 2013)

Naruto goes inside Past Kyuubi's mind and frees him. Now it's KCM Naruto + Full Kyuubi vs Madara. Madara gets stomped.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Feb 10, 2013)

Naruto domz scenario 1.

In scenario 2 Naruto communicates with evil Kurama in their private mindscape and converts him.

In theory Naruto could free Evil Kurama by pumping chakra to it telepathically aswell. I'm just saying.


----------



## blk (Feb 11, 2013)

*Scenario 1:*

So far, EMS Madara just shown Katons, genjutsu, Susano'o and the its perfect version; but these are not enough for beat BM Naruto.

Everything he has aside from Perfect Susano'o can't do anything to Naruto, while the former ability still lacks the durability feats that are needed for survive to the Kurama Avatar.

Basically, Naruto wins with a difficulty between mid and hard because of a lack of feats of EMS Madara (which is supposed to have others MS/EMS powers, that can potentially shift the scale in his favor).

*Scenario 2:*

Well, Madara destroys.

Not only EMS Madara (despite the already said lack of feats) is a pretty strong challenge to BM Naruto, but the latter has no conceivable ways to take down his same Bijuu with _double_ of the power that the one inside him has.

Bottom line, Naruto's BM runs out and 100% Kyuubi stomps him.
Madara is not needed to be honest, Kyuubi solos.


----------



## puma21 (Feb 11, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> mmm The only problem is the PS, it's really huge I'm not sure if Naruto can deal with it. and with Kurama with him he'll win for sure. (Madara)
> 
> 1- Madara wins. extremely difficult.
> 2- Madara wins. mid difficult.


 

I don't see how ps is a huge problem as he already tanked the juubi's biju dama I don't see ps doing any better. I also don't see ps tanking a regular mountain buster biju dama let alone the continuous version. 

Naruto wins both fights.


----------



## Raiken (Feb 11, 2013)

If this was a completely un-restricted fight.
Except Madara isn't an Edo Tensei, and Alive instead:
Naruto and Madara are around equal. Naruto having the slight edge.
And if they can both survive without being defeated for a long time.
Naruto eventually outlasts Madara.
Naruto Wins. Very High difficulty.

With Edo-Tensei. Madara has the Edge. Never Ending Chakra. And Regeneration from any damage.
I'd say Madara would win. High Difficulty.


----------



## Rage of Hate (Feb 11, 2013)

Madara is being underrated here especially his PS

Itachi's low-mid level susanoo was able to tank kirin and PS is in another plant compared to itachi's low-mid susanoo. 

A single sword swing is as destructive as a biju dam if no more and by the way susanoo has four hands and two swords. It takes less time for madara to do a sowrd swing then for naruto to us biju dama and with continious sword swings there is no way naruto is able to let one fly at madara. Also Madara huge katons would also pose a problem to naruto.


----------



## Shattering (Feb 11, 2013)

Base Madara with his fan stomps BM Naruto, it's manga cannon, I have yet to see Madara excited about Naruto's powers, he is still playing around and don't giving a fuck about anything, Naruto has no chance atm.


----------



## Raiken (Feb 11, 2013)

Shattering said:


> Base Madara with his fan stomps BM Naruto, it's manga cannon, I have yet to see Madara excited about Naruto's powers, he is still playing around and don't giving a fuck about anything, Naruto has no chance atm.


So he defeated a single Naruto Clone. So Base Madara+OP Fan > BM Naruto? LOL 'Derp'
Because Naruto had no Clue of the Fan's Special Power to redirect attacks.
And all Madara accomplished was defeating a single Clone.
And gave the original knowledge of the Fan's Ability.

That's not even Bijuu Mode anyway. That's Chakra Mode L2/CM2.
Bijuu Mode is where he creates the Chakra Manifestation of the Full Kyuubi.


----------



## Grimm6Jack (Feb 11, 2013)

Shattering said:


> Base Madara with his fan stomps BM Naruto, it's manga cannon, I have yet to see Madara excited about Naruto's powers, he is still playing around and don't giving a fuck about anything, Naruto has no chance atm.



Maybe because Madara has the Juubi with him?
You know, the most *powerfull* Bijuu and being in Narutoverse?


----------



## Ghost (Feb 11, 2013)

blk said:


> *Scenario 2:*
> 
> Well, Madara destroys.
> 
> ...



What? 

First of all: Perfect Jinchuuriki > Bijuu. You have no proof that 100% Kurama is stronger than BM Naruto who has better feats.

How would Kurama even defeat Naruto? Naruto is too fast to get hit and Madara has nothing to pin down Naruto with.

If Kurama uses Bijuudama, Naruto can block it with his own and the explosion kills Madara.

Nothing stops Naruto from creating clones to harass Madara and Kurama either.


----------



## blk (Feb 11, 2013)

Saikyou said:


> What?
> 
> First of all: Perfect Jinchuuriki > Bijuu. You have no proof that 100% Kurama is stronger than BM Naruto who has better feats.



100% Kurama is more powerful than BM Naruto because he has twice as much power.



> How would Kurama even defeat Naruto? Naruto is too fast to get hit and Madara has nothing to pin down Naruto with.



Naruto can use the Shunshin no Jutsu only without the Kurama Avatar.
Though, without it, he has no way of fight Perfect Susano'o and Kurama at the same time.



> If Kurama uses Bijuudama, Naruto can block it with his own and the explosion kills Madara.



100% Kurama is under Madara's control, so he will not risk such a thing.
At worst, he will protect himself with Perfect Susano'o.



> Nothing stops Naruto from creating clones to harass Madara and Kurama either.



Clones can do very little against Perfect Susano'o or Kurama.


----------



## Ghost (Feb 11, 2013)

blk said:


> 100% Kurama is more powerful than BM Naruto because he has twice as much power.



Again, Naruto + Kurama > Kurama



> *Naruto can use the Shunshin no Jutsu only without the Kurama Avatar.*
> Though, without it, he has no way of fight Perfect Susano'o and Kurama at the same time.



*Was this mentioned somewhere?* Dat everlasting Susano'o and immune to attacks Kurama.


> 100% Kurama is under Madara's control, so he will not risk such a thing.
> At worst, he will protect himself with Perfect Susano'o.



So what is Kurama going to do in the fight?



> Clones can do very little against Perfect Susano'o or Kurama.



Because Madara can totally sit inside his Susano'o as long as he wants. Last time I checked dozens of Rasen Shurikens can hurt Kurama.


----------



## blk (Feb 11, 2013)

Saikyou said:


> Again, Naruto + Kurama > Kurama



I would like to see some evidence for this claim.



> *Was this mentioned somewhere?* Dat everlasting Susano'o and immune to attacks Kurama.



Did you saw Naruto ever using the Shunshin no Jutsu with the Kurama Avatar? Because i didn't.



> So what is Kurama going to do in the fight?



The beast can be used for wrestle down BM Naruto, destroy clones with roars and eventually use BijuuDamas.



> Because Madara can totally sit inside his Susano'o as long as he wants. Last time I checked dozens of Rasen Shurikens can hurt Kurama.



I never said that Madara can sit inside his Susano'o as long as he wants.

The Kyuubi that Naruto fought wasn't at his full power, and still was just pushed down by these attacks but not scratched.


----------



## U mad bro (Feb 11, 2013)

Yeah Naruto just nukes the field yet to be seen Madara can counter a bijuudama spam. Kurama could but Madara doubt it. Maybe he can or maybe he can't no proof though. Anyways without tag alongs to protect Naruto doesn't even have to reveal himself and fight with his clones. Not only that Naruto's arsenal is larger and more efficient.


----------



## Ghost (Feb 11, 2013)

blk said:


> I would like to see some evidence for this claim.


I can't find the chapter atm where it was stated that when the host and the bijuu work together they surpass the bijuu's strength.



> Did you saw Naruto ever using the Shunshin no Jutsu with the Kurama Avatar? Because i didn't.



Did you read somewhere that he wouldn't be able to use Shunsin while using the Kurama Avatar? Because I didn't.

Naruto can still use it instantly so idk what it matters.



> The beast can be used for wrestle down BM Naruto, destroy clones with roars and eventually use BijuuDamas.



Why would Naruto start to wrestle Kurama when he can avoid him with ease? Naruto can shunsin past it and spam Bijuudamas at Madara.





> The Kyuubi that Naruto fought wasn't at his full power, and still was just pushed down by these attacks but not scratched.



BM Naruto >>>>>>>>>>>> Sage Mode Naruto

Naruto's FRS roughed Kurama up pretty good. Nowhere close to fatal but dozens of those...


----------



## blk (Feb 11, 2013)

Saikyou said:


> I can't find the chapter atm where it was stated that when the host and the bijuu work together they surpass the bijuu's strength.



Perhaps because it was never stated? Also, it's pretty obvious that the statement (if it was ever said) hadn't an absolute meaning. It probably meant that, in general, when a Jinchuuriki works togheter with the Bijuu they will, obviously, fight better than the Bijuu or the Jinchuuriki alone (it also has probably something to do about the intelligence of the beast, which seems to magically increase when trapped into a Jinchuuriki).

The only sure thing is that it's fallacious to say that the above possibilites mean an absolute raw-power superiority of the Jinchuuriki + Bijuu compared to the Bijuu alone; it's even less likely if the Bijuu inside the host is not even close to his full power.



> Did you read somewhere that he wouldn't be able to use Shunsin while using the Kurama Avatar? Because I didn't.
> 
> Naruto can still use it instantly so idk what it matters.



You made the claim that Naruto with the Kurama Avatar can use the Shunshin no Jutsu, so you should provide evidences for said claim.



> Why would Naruto start to wrestle Kurama when he can avoid him with ease? Naruto can shunsin past it and spam Bijuudamas at Madara.



Might happen if Madara stays so far away from the Kyuubi that the beast will be unable to help him, and both of them don't do anything while Naruto moves and prepares the BijuuDamas.
Of course that's not the case.



> BM Naruto >>>>>>>>>>>> Sage Mode Naruto
> 
> Naruto's FRS roughed Kurama up pretty good. Nowhere close to fatal but dozens of those...



Naruto's FRS pushed down Kurama, but he had no signs of injures.

And "dozens" is too much vague, don't you think? By feats, the maximum amounts of clones that Naruto can do while in BM is three, so it's more like 3 FRS, not "dozens".

And even if he could make dozens of clones, a chakra roar at least twice as more powerful of the one that BM Naruto used would disperse them all with ease.


----------



## Luftwaffles (Feb 11, 2013)

Chapter was when Tobi and Deidara grabbed the Bijuu Turtle and Tobi said Perfect Jin>No Jin.


----------



## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 11, 2013)

blk said:


> 100% Kurama is more powerful than BM Naruto because he has twice as much power.



100% Kurama has the advantage in raw power, but that's all it has. BM Naruto has superior speed, has shadow clones for force multiplication, can use chakra arms for superior versatility, has more variants of TBB, has a Kurama shroud made of pure chakra which is immune to pain and can just be recreated instantly if damaged unlike the Kyuubi's chakra flesh and blood, has a humanoid form that is useful in many situations that the full Kyuubi's size would normally be unfit for (escaping the Wood Dragon for example, which the full Kyuubi failed to do but BM Naruto succeeded in), and has two minds instead of one.

Basically, while the Kyuubi has more raw power, BM Naruto has far superior speed, is more versatile, has clones, and is harder to damage.


----------



## blk (Feb 12, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> 100% Kurama has the advantage in raw power, but that's all it has. BM Naruto has superior speed, has shadow clones for force multiplication, can use chakra arms for superior versatility, has more variants of TBB, has a Kurama shroud made of pure chakra which is immune to pain and can just be recreated instantly if damaged unlike the Kyuubi's chakra flesh and blood, has a humanoid form that is useful in many situations that the full Kyuubi's size would normally be unfit for (escaping the Wood Dragon for example, which the full Kyuubi failed to do but BM Naruto succeeded in), and has two minds instead of one.
> 
> Basically, while the Kyuubi has more raw power, BM Naruto has far superior speed, is more versatile, has clones, and is harder to damage.



Narut is not faster, unless you show me that he with the Kurama Avatar can use the Shunshin no Jutsu.

The fact that the Kurama Avatar is harder to damage is also an assumption; despite being made of flesh and bones, the 50% Kyuubi tanked without the slightest scratch tens of Cho Odama Rasengan and an FRS, so, at worst, 100% Kurama has the same durability of his chakra made version (the chakra made version can reform, true, but the normal Kurama has an high level regeneration for counter-balance).

Clones are only that much of an advantage, when a chakra roar (which is at least twice as powerful of the one that BM Naruto used) can disperse them all with ease (nor that, by feats, he can make many of them while in BM).

The advantages that BM Naruto has over 100% Kurama are not that great as you think; he doesn't really have anything able to take the beast down, and the presence of Madara renders this all more troublesome.
As i said before, the worst that can happen if Madara and his Kyuubi fail at killing Naruto, is that the latter runs out of BM and then gets obliterated.


----------



## Bonly (Feb 12, 2013)

blk said:


> Naruto is not faster, unless you show me that he with the Kurama Avatar can use the Shunshin no Jutsu.



Here it looks like he did it.


----------



## Raiken (Feb 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Here it looks like he did it.


He means when he's in Bijuu Mode. 
A lot of people have this misconception, where they think this is Bijuu Mode:

It's not. That's a higher level of Chakra Mode. Where Kurama combines his own Chakra, with Naruto's own Kyuubi Chakra: "That he uses for Chakra Mode".
It's simply put Chakra Mode L2 / CM2 / KCM2

This is Bijuu Mode:


----------



## Ghost (Feb 12, 2013)

blk said:


> Perhaps because it was never stated? Also, it's pretty obvious that the statement (if it was ever said) hadn't an absolute meaning. It probably meant that, in general, when a Jinchuuriki works togheter with the Bijuu they will, obviously, fight better than the Bijuu or the Jinchuuriki alone (it also has probably something to do about the intelligence of the beast, which seems to magically increase when trapped into a Jinchuuriki).



Exactly. Jinchuuriki fights better than the Bijuu on it's own. Kurama can't defeat BM Naruto who holds the advantage in every category except raw power.




> You made the claim that Naruto with the Kurama Avatar can use the Shunshin no Jutsu, so you should provide evidences for said claim.



You should provide some evidence that he can't. 




> Might happen if Madara stays so far away from the Kyuubi that the beast will be unable to help him, and both of them don't do anything while Naruto moves and prepares the BijuuDamas.
> Of course that's not the case.



But Naruto stands still and doesn't use his most effective techniques in this battle, right?



> And "dozens" is too much vague, don't you think? By feats, the maximum amounts of clones that Naruto can do while in BM is three, so it's more like 3 FRS, not "dozens".



Here

His clones can also makes clones. That is more than three.



> And even if he could make dozens of clones, a chakra roar at least twice as more powerful of the one that BM Naruto used would disperse them all with ease.



Here

Madara can't really use a chakra roar from Kurama to clear the clones near him unless he wants himself to die. Kurama can't roar a shockwave on himself either. for example if Naruto has clones on Kurama's back attacking it. These clones are also way more durable than normal kage bunshins.

Also if Madara or Kurama try to help each other from the clones, they give the  real Naruto a huge opening for a Bijuudama etc.


----------



## Raiken (Feb 12, 2013)

He's shown he can can quickly Shun-Shin out of Bijuu Mode.
He hasn't shown the ability to Shun-Shin the whole of Bijuu Mode.
So no he can't, from what we've seen.

He can dash around really really fast in Bijuu Mode though. As shown when he tackled the Nanabi, who was also flying.


----------



## blk (Feb 12, 2013)

Saikyou said:


> Exactly. Jinchuuriki fights better than the Bijuu on it's own. Kurama can't defeat BM Naruto who holds the advantage in every category except raw power.



My point always was that 100% Kurama had greater raw power, i never talked about anything else.

In this scenario, 100% Kurama doesn't have the problem of the intelligence since he's controlled by Madara, so Naruto's main advantage becomes worthless.



> You should provide some evidence that he can't.



You made the claim that Naruto can do something that he never showed, so it's your duty to provide evidences that he can.

Thinking that something is true unless proven otherwise is a fallacy.



> But Naruto stands still and doesn't use his most effective techniques in this battle, right?



Did i ever said something like that? This reply has nothing to do with what i wrote.



> durability
> 
> His clones can also makes clones. That is more than three.



And that was not BM Naruto.
But either way, base clones are non-factors in a battle of this magnitude.



> durability
> 
> Madara can't really use a chakra roar from Kurama to clear the clones near him unless he wants himself to die. Kurama can't roar a shockwave on himself either. for example if Naruto has clones on Kurama's back attacking it. These clones are also way more durable than normal kage bunshins.
> 
> Also if Madara or Kurama try to help each other from the clones, they give the  real Naruto a huge opening for a Bijuudama etc.



Of course Madara can make the Kyuubi use a roar, it isn't necessarily omnidirectional nor he will die if put up Susano'o for precautions.

The clones should have to come near Kurama in order to attach themselves to his back, something like this will hardly happen.
And even if some of them succesfully attaches to Kurama's back, he can jump, or roll, or do any other movement that will knock them down (bottom line, Madara uses a Katon against these clones).

The notion that Naruto can give to Madara and Kurama any difficult with clones, knowing that both of them has attacks with huge AoE that can easily dispel all of them and hit the real Naruto at the same time (Katons, roars, PS slashes, BijuuDama), is ludicrous.




Bonly said:


> Here it looks like he did it.



I was talking about Naruto with the Kurama Avatar.


----------



## Bonly (Feb 12, 2013)

blk said:


> I was talking about Naruto with the Kurama Avatar.



I know hence the link to it.


----------



## blk (Feb 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> I know hence the link to it.



In the bottom right you can see that Naruto hadn't the Kurama Avatar  [1].
Even in the next page [2], in the bottom left, you can see that the Kurama Avatar started to form after the initial Shunshin.

Naruto never used the Shunshin no Jutsu with the Kurama Avatar.


----------



## Bonly (Feb 12, 2013)

blk said:


> In the bottom right you can see that Naruto hadn't the Kurama Avatar  [1].
> Even in the next page [2], in the bottom left, you can see that the Kurama Avatar started to form after the initial Shunshin.
> 
> Naruto never used the Shunshin no Jutsu with the Kurama Avatar.



Lol for some reason when you said avatar I just thought of Aang from ATLA so I made the connection of Aang lighting up to Naruto's change of chakra shroud . Forgiven me for my misunderstanding.


----------



## Orochibuto (Feb 12, 2013)

There is no 100% is a fallacy, no one has indicated that the BM is weaker than the original Kyuubi, we have no knowledgement if Kurama regenerated the missing chakra, even if its all 100% Yang and no Yin, and Kurama has shown chakra regeneration abilities.


----------



## blk (Feb 12, 2013)

Orochibuto said:


> There is no 100% is a fallacy, no one has indicated that the BM is weaker than the original Kyuubi, we have no knowledgement if Kurama regenerated the missing chakra, even if its all 100% Yang and no Yin, and Kurama has shown chakra regeneration abilities.



Minato sealed half of the Kyuubi's power inside the Shinigami.

As far as i know your claim has no grounds, so, bring evidences or accept the above.


----------



## ZE (Feb 12, 2013)

blk said:


> Minato sealed half of the Kyuubi's power inside the Shinigami.
> 
> As far as i know your claim has no grounds, so, bring evidences or accept the above.



You want evidence of what, exactly? 
That BM Naruto is stronger than the Kyuubi? 

If that's what you're asking for, how about reading the chapter where Naruto beats the same wood dragon that was confirmed to be stronger than past Kyuubi?


----------



## blk (Feb 12, 2013)

ZE said:


> You want evidence of what, exactly?
> That BM Naruto is stronger than the Kyuubi?
> 
> If that's what you're asking for, how about reading the chapter where Naruto beats the same wood dragon that was confirmed to be stronger than past Kyuubi?



That 100% Kurama, who is said to have twice as much power of the Kurama inside Naruto, has not more raw power than BM Naruto.

Whatever you believe about BM Naruto being stronger than 100% Kurama in a general sense (with a very weak argument, i must add) has absolutely nothing to do with it.


----------



## ZE (Feb 12, 2013)

blk said:


> That 100% Kurama, who is said to have twice as much power of the Kurama inside Naruto, has not more raw power than BM Naruto.
> 
> Whatever you believe about BM Naruto being stronger than 100% Kurama in a general sense (with a very weak argument, i must add) has absolutely nothing to do with it.



Woah, dude, talk about not making any sense. 

We have factual evidence here:
Wood Dragon>past Kyuubi
BM Naruto>Wood Dragon

We also know that BM Naruto is a fusion of Naruto with 50% Kyuubi. In other words, uzumaki+Kyuubi. 

For all its strength, nothing stopped an uchiha from one-shotting past kyuubi with a genjutsu. Can an uchiha do that to BM Naruto? No, BM Naruto is immune to genjutsu.

In genjutsu, Naruto>Kyuubi
In speed, Naruto>Kyuubi 
In power, it’s up to discussion whether or not uzumaki+50% of kyuubi is inferior to full kyuubi. Could be weaker, could be stronger.

But overall? Everything points in one direction: you're wrong. Just like Deidara said, jinchuuriki>bijuu.


----------



## blk (Feb 12, 2013)

ZE said:


> Woah, dude, talk about not making any sense.



What i wrote to you was perfectly fine, logically speaking; i don't know what you are talking about.



> We have factual evidence here:
> Wood Dragon>past Kyuubi
> BM Naruto>Wood Dragon



BM Naruto was capable of escaping to the Wood Dragon because he could shut his Kurama Avatar, 100% Kurama couldn't because evidently was not able to shrink.

This tells nothing about their respective raw power.



> For all its strength, nothing stopped an uchiha from one-shotting past kyuubi with a genjutsu. Can an uchiha do that to BM Naruto? No, BM Naruto is immune to genjutsu.
> 
> In genjutsu, Naruto>Kyuubi



Irrelevant.



> In speed, Naruto>Kyuubi



If you mean the Naruto with the Kurama Avatar, then it's arguable.



> In power, it’s up to discussion whether or not uzumaki+50% of kyuubi is inferior to full kyuubi. Could be weaker, could be stronger.



The 50% Kyuubi that Naruto has inside him has a lot more chakra than him along with the fact that it's more powerful.
Therefore, 50% Kyuubi + 50% Kyuubi is a stronger combination.



> But overall? Everything points in one direction: you're wrong. Just like Deidara said, jinchuuriki>bijuu.



You are still ignoring that i always talked about the raw power.


----------



## Alita (Feb 12, 2013)

If naruto goes for a roar right from the getgo then non edo madara loses this since he likely won't go for perfect susano right from the getgo.

And for those curious about the power of BM naruto's roar.....



It's at almost 6 megatons in firepower which is city level for those who don't know.


----------



## Orochimaru800 (Feb 13, 2013)

the next chapter...shall be interesting....


----------



## Pirao (Feb 13, 2013)

Orochimaru800 said:


> the next chapter...shall be interesting....



Indeed. We'll see how much damage a regular bijuudama does to unstabilized PS.


----------



## αce (Feb 13, 2013)

It looks like it didn't do anything. At all.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 13, 2013)

♠Ace♠ said:


> It looks like it didn't do anything. At all.


The chapter ended before the Bijudama exploded. Not only that, Madara is probably borrowing on Kurama's own power too to make his Susano'o even stronger.


----------



## αce (Feb 13, 2013)

> The chapter ended before the Bijudama exploded.



It's still not going to do anything.



> Not only that, Madara is probably borrowing on Kurama's own power too to make his Susano'o even stronger.



baseless
completely and utterly baseless


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 13, 2013)

♠Ace♠ said:


> It's still not going to do anything.


Why do you think that? Given the power shown by the Bijudama why do you think it won't do anything? -snip-




> baseless
> completely and utterly baseless


Madara is standing on Kurama's head. Kurama can transfer chakra. Madara is in full control of Kurama's powers. 

Not baseless-its because you want Madara to be stronger.


----------



## Sarry (Feb 13, 2013)

Madara against Naruto: an experienced ninja that saw the first creation of villages vs an inexperienced child. 

Madara wins. Jutsus aren't the only thing a ninja has. Experience is valuable. 


Mads wins in both cases.




SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Madara is standing on Kurama's head. Kurama can transfer chakra. Madara is in full control of Kurama's powers.
> 
> Not baseless-its because you want Madara to be stronger.



Unless specifically shown in manga, we mustn't assume that.


----------



## αce (Feb 13, 2013)

> Why do you think that? Given the power shown by the Bijudama why do you  think it won't do anything other than your own bias for Madara?


Because I've been saying since Perfect Susano-o showed up that if it's defensive powers are equivalent to it's size and it's strength than it will casually absorb a bijuu dama blast and call it a day. 



> Madara is standing on Kurama's head. Kurama can transfer chakra. Madara is in full control of Kurama's powers.


Kurama chakra transfer wasn't even known to Naruto until he told him and showed him how to use it. And he's had the damn thing for 16 years. Madara had it for probably a week. Read the damn manga. Madara had it under a genjutsu, you think he knows how to manually transfer chakra from the Kyuubi when Naruto didn't even know until Kurama cooperated with him?

-snip- 




> Not baseless-its because you want Madara to be stronger.


It is baseless because there's no proof Madara knows how to transfer charka, which has to be done manually. It's not passive. 

-snip-

Madara transferring chakra from the Kyuubi. The fuck is this?


----------



## U mad bro (Feb 13, 2013)

The one who had a db like battle against the juubi.
sharingan


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 13, 2013)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Because I've been saying since Perfect Susano-o showed up that if it's defensive powers are equivalent to it's size and it's strength than it will casually absorb a bijuu dama blast and call it a day.


Except it doesn't have the feats for it Ace. And claiming it can do so without proof isn't exactly what we do here.

Just because you've been saying time and time again, doesn't make it true. Hell for all we know the Bijudama exploding is what blew through the Perfect Susano'o and left Madara vulnerable.


> Kurama chakra transfer wasn't even known to Naruto until he told him and showed him how to use it. And he's had the damn thing for 16 years. Madara had it for probably a week. Read the damn manga. Madara had it under a genjutsu, you think he knows how to manually transfer chakra from the Kyuubi when Naruto didn't even know until Kurama cooperated with him?


Why wouldn't Madara know of Kurama's abilities? He summons the damn thing all the time. And why wouldn't Madara want or need a boost from the strongest Biju to tank an attack of the magnitude of Bijudama?




> It is baseless because there's no proof Madara knows how to transfer charka, which has to be done manually. It's not passive.
> 
> 
> 
> Madara transferring chakra from the Kyuubi. The fuck is this?


Madara can command Kurama to do so. After the revelation that Kurama could do this, its not out there. And why wouldn't, if Madara knew it, do it?


----------



## Orochimaru800 (Feb 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The chapter ended before the Bijudama exploded. Not only that, Madara is probably borrowing on Kurama's own power too to make his Susano'o even stronger.



Thank you for giving Prime Madara even more hype! So basically a  Prime  unrestricted Madara who can control the Kyubi  and add it's  chakra into his own  PS is an even bigger beast!

With this in mind, how do you reckon Madara will be defeated, huh SSM12?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 13, 2013)

Orochimaru800 said:


> Thank you for giving Prime Madara even more hype! So basically Prime Madara who can control the Kyubbi  and add Kuramas chakra into his own  PS is an even bigger beast!


Its a possibility. And come on, if Madara knew about it you wouldn't put it past him for him using it?


----------



## Orochimaru800 (Feb 13, 2013)

It would certainly be the smart and logical thing for him to do. And it is a possibility.  With that said though, next week should give us some clear cut answers.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 13, 2013)

How is it twisting things? It means Madara could only block a Bijudama of Kurama's magnitude after Kurama was forced to power him up.


----------



## blk (Feb 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How is it twisting things? It means Madara could only block a Bijudama of Kurama's magnitude after Kurama was forced to power him up.



You should provide evidences for this claim.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 13, 2013)

blk said:


> You should provide evidences for this claim.


He's on Kurama when he forms Perfect Susano'o. Again...for all we know he got a chakra transfer from Kurama to increase his defensive/offensive power.

And even then, all that's happened so far is blocking the concussive force of a returned Bijudama, not its super explosion.


----------



## blk (Feb 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He's on Kurama when he forms Perfect Susano'o. Again...for all we know he got a chakra transfer from Kurama to increase his defensive/offensive power.
> 
> And even then, all that's happened so far is blocking the concussive force of a returned Bijudama, not its super explosion.



And we know what, exactly?

1) We don't know if Madara knows that he can transfer the Kyuubi chakra into him in order to power-up his tecniques.

2) We don't know if Madara knows how to transfer the Kyuubi chakra into him.

3) We don't know if the Kyuubi controlled in such a way is able to transfer his chakra.

4) We don't know if Susano'o can be powered-up by Kyuubi's chakra.

So, yeah, for all we know Madara is blocking the BijuuDama of the full Kyuubi with his own unstabilized Perfect Susano'o (not that there is anything to be surprised of, it was always obvious that PS could block/tank the BijuuDama).


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 13, 2013)

blk said:


> And we know what, exactly?
> 
> 1) We don't know if Madara knows that he can transfer the Kyuubi chakra into him in order to power-up his tecniques.
> 
> ...


Madara is blocking a Bijudama that _hasn't exploded_ and has had much of its concussive force already diluted by being grabbed by the Mokujin no Jutsu.


----------



## blk (Feb 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Madara is blocking a Bijudama that _hasn't exploded_ and has had much of its concussive force already diluted by being grabbed by the Mokujin no Jutsu.



How do you know that the Mokujin no Jutsu is hitting the Susano'o with lesser force than a thrown Bijuu Dama?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 13, 2013)

blk said:


> How do you know that the Mokujin no Jutsu is hitting the Susano'o with lesser force than a shot Bijuu Dama?


Since it caught the Bijudama, transferring the force down its arm and then it pushed forward. The simple act of catching made the kinetic energy die off.


----------



## blk (Feb 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since it caught the Bijudama, transferring the force down its arm and then it pushed forward. The simple act of catching made the kinetic energy die off.



We don't know with how much force the Mokujin no Jutsu pushed the Bijuudama forward, it could be less, on par or even greater than the force that it had when Kurama thrown it.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 13, 2013)

blk said:


> We don't know with how much force the Mokujin no Jutsu pushed the Bijuudama forward, it could be less, on par or even greater than the force that it had when Kurama throwed it.


When a baseball player catches a baseball thrown at him or falling from the sky, the kinetic energy is completely absorbed and reduced to zero. Its the same principle here with Kurama's Bijudama being caught.


----------



## Sarry (Feb 13, 2013)

A bit farfetched comparison but:
If Obito could handle both Bee and Naruto, there's not reason why madara can't do the same, if not more.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 13, 2013)

Sarry said:


> A bit farfetched comparison but:
> If Obito could handle both Bee and Naruto, there's not reason why madara can't do the same, if not more.


Obito's phasing ability is far more broken than Madara's pure destructive power. And for most of the fight, Naruto wasn't at full power and Biju Mode seriously turned the tables if you recall.


----------



## blk (Feb 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> When a baseball player catches a baseball thrown at him or falling from the sky, the kinetic energy is completely absorbed and reduced to zero. Its the same principle here with Kurama's Bijudama being caught.



False analogy.

It's true that Hashirama stopped the Bijuudama, therefore reducing the kinetic energy, but immediatly after he hit the Susano'o with it; how do you know that the hit had less force overall than a thrown Bijuudama?



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Obito's phasing ability is far more broken than Madara's pure destructive power. And for most of the fight, Naruto wasn't at full power and Biju Mode seriously turned the tables if you recall.



What turned the table was Kakashi's intuition: the moment he understood that his and Obito's eyes were linked, he, Naruto, Gai and Bee became able to challenge the Uchiha.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 13, 2013)

blk said:


> False analogy.
> 
> It's true that Hashirama stopped the Bijuudama, therefore reducing the kinetic energy, but immediatly after he hit the Susano'o with it; how do you know that the hit had less force overall than a thrown Bijuudama?


Since that's how physics work. Its no a false analogy when it really happened that way. 

Why would being pushed forward have the same kinetic energy of being shot at full speed from Kurama?


> What turned the table was Kakashi's intuition: the moment he understood that his and Obito's eyes were linked, he, Naruto, Gai and Bee became able to challenge the Uchiha.


And Obito's ability is so broken...

And they were challenging Obito beforehand, and it still doesn't mean that Naruto was at full power remember?


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 13, 2013)

Sarry said:


> Madara against Naruto: an experienced ninja that saw the first creation of villages vs an inexperienced child.
> 
> Madara wins. Jutsus aren't the only thing a ninja has. Experience is valuable.
> 
> ...



Kakuzu had that exact same advantage over base Naruto and look what happened to him.  Experience means little to nothing especially when up against the unpredictable ninja.



Sarry said:


> A bit farfetched comparison but:
> If Obito could handle both Bee and Naruto, there's not reason why madara can't do the same, if not more.



when was Obito beating Bee and Naruto?



♠Ace♠ said:


> It's still not going to do anything.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the second half of your post is like the response to the first half of your post


----------



## blk (Feb 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since that's how physics work. Its no a false analogy when it really happened that way.
> 
> Why would being pushed forward have the same kinetic energy of being shot at full speed from Kurama?



It is a false analogy, because you use an event that is similar only in a way, to what is being argued, in order to make a conclusion that you cannot make.

In other words, you have to provide evidences for justify your claim that when the Bijuudama was pushed forward, it had less kinetic energy than when it was thrown.



> And Obito's ability is so broken...
> 
> And they were challenging Obito beforehand, and it still doesn't mean that Naruto was at full power remember?



Naruto wasn't at full power all the time, but without Kakashi they wouldn't have been able to hit Obito, regardless if Naruto was at full power or not.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Feb 13, 2013)

The main reason I'm not up and about in this thread is because two important things need to be found out.

1. How long can he control Lord Kurama?
2. How long can he use Perfect Susanoo? (And ofcourse, what it could tank and so on)

We know allllllllll of Naruto's limitations but none of his. Not fair. Not gonna waste time until I get the cold facts


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 13, 2013)

blk said:


> It is a false analogy, because you use an event that is similar only in a way, to what is being argued, in order to make a conclusion that you cannot make.
> 
> In other words, you have to provide evidences for justify your claim that when the Bijuudama was pushed forward, it had less kinetic energy than when it was thrown.


This is how things work. 

The Mokuton Living Spirit caught the Bijudama. That means its force was transferred down its arm. And then it was pushed forward. 

When has something been caught ever had the same amount of kinetic energy as something that is still in motion?


> Naruto wasn't at full power all the time, but without Kakashi they wouldn't have been able to hit Obito, regardless if Naruto was at full power or not.


Not even using Minato's strategy would work?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 13, 2013)

blk said:


> 1) We don't know if Madara knows that he can transfer the Kyuubi chakra into him in order to power-up his tecniques.
> 
> 2) We don't know if Madara knows how to transfer the Kyuubi chakra into him.
> 
> 3) We don't know if the Kyuubi controlled in such a way is able to transfer his chakra.



From what we can gather, we have no reason to believe he can. Naruto obtained that ability due to being a Jinchuriki for _years_.





> 4) We don't know if Susano'o can be powered-up by Kyuubi's chakra.



Oh, that's a given: Susanoo would be powered up. Everything from Kage Mane, to Jyuuken to Lee's Taijutsu was powered up, so why not Susanoo?


----------



## blk (Feb 14, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> This is how things work.
> 
> The Mokuton Living Spirit caught the Bijudama. That means its force was transferred down its arm. And then it was pushed forward.
> 
> When has something been caught ever had the same amount of kinetic energy as something that is still in motion?



The arm of Mokujin no Jutsu had a certain acceleration when it pushed forward the Bijuudama, therefore the hit had a certain force when it hit the Susano'o with the Bijuudama.

How do you know that said force was inferior to the one that would have been exercised by the thrown Bijuudama?



> Not even using Minato's strategy would work?



Naruto doesn't have Hirashin no Jutsu.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> From what we can gather, we have no reason to believe he can. Naruto obtained that ability due to being a Jinchuriki for _years_.



Yeah, that's the same thing that i'm supporting.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 14, 2013)

blk said:


> The arm of Mokujin no Jutsu had a certain acceleration when it pushed forward the Bijuudama, therefore the hit had a certain force when it hit the Susano'o with the Bijuudama.


By pushing forward, the Bijudama's own acceleration was completely stopped and wasted. Without that inertia, the Bijudama became a _melee_ attack for the Mokujin no Jutsu to use.


> How do you know that said force was inferior to the one that would have been exercised by the thrown Bijuudama?


Since the Bijudama was simply pushed foward by the Mokujin.

When something is _thrown_ or shot, it has much more kinetic energy and concussive force behind it. Bijudama's are shot like cannons after all.
Naruto doesn't have Hirashin no Jutsu.


----------



## blk (Feb 14, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> By pushing forward, the Bijudama's own acceleration was completely stopped and wasted. Without that inertia, the Bijudama became a _melee_ attack for the Mokujin no Jutsu to use.
> 
> Since the Bijudama was simply pushed foward by the Mokujin.
> 
> When something is _thrown_ or shot, it has much more kinetic energy and concussive force behind it. Bijudama's are shot like cannons after all.



But the _arm_ had an acceleration, and therefore it exercised a certain force when it hit the Susano'o.

Now, if something is thrown or shot, it wouldn't necessarily exercise a greater force than a melee attack, in the case of hitting something.

So, again, how do you know that the force that a thrown Bijuudama can exercise, is necessarily greater than the force of a Bijuudama used through a melee attack?


----------



## Ezekial (Feb 14, 2013)

The guy who was on par with Hashirama? Madara ROFLSTOMPS



Saikyou said:


> Nothing stops Naruto from creating clones to harass Madara and Kurama either.


 You do know that most can use clones? Madara has a bigger chakra pool (assumed) plus huge AOE attacks to deal with clones, EMS Madara is used to fighting huge numbers.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 14, 2013)

tbh I just don't think Naruto is as strong as hashirama and Madara were yet.

And he's no where near prime madara with hashirama's jutsu on top of it.

We don't really see the difference because Madara's simply never gone all out seriously.

 But if both current Naruto and Madara went full out without holding back Madara would completely cream Naruto.

(few)People were arguing bijuu dama would destroy PS but that just isn't going to be the case. Naruto has another evolution to go through before he's on that level.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 14, 2013)

Ezekial said:


> The guy who was on par with Hashirama? Madara ROFLSTOMPS


And Naruto was fighting Madara pretty evenly if you remember, and holding out against the Ten-Tails. Hell nothing Madara has can put BM Naruto down.


> You do know that most can use clones? Madara has a bigger chakra pool (assumed) plus huge AOE attacks to deal with clones, EMS Madara is used to fighting huge numbers.


Since when does Madara have a bigger chakra reserve than NARUTO of all people?


----------



## U mad bro (Feb 15, 2013)

Straight up blow for blow combat with the strongest being in this series. Madara equates that how?


----------



## Nardo6670 (Feb 20, 2013)

So,anyone have any new opinions on this fight? Esepcially with what we saw in todays chapter

for saiyaman


*Spoiler*: __ 



 kyuubi does not protect madaras susanoo. on the contrary, susanoo protects the kyuubi


----------



## Gin Ichimaru (Feb 20, 2013)

U mad bro said:


> Straight up blow for blow combat with the strongest being in this series. Madara equates that how?



lol @ blow for blow, when Kyuubi lost 6 of its tails and it already said it was no match for juubi.

And considering that 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Madara's Susanoo protected Kyuubi from its own bijuu bomb, susanoo stomps.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Feb 20, 2013)

Chapter made this fight easier for Naruto.

If Hashirama could go hoping and skipping away from this:
- killed
- killed

Then no one can come and tell me Naruto can't outright dodge and avoid Perfect Susanoo slashes for as long as he pleases.

Naruto will have to go back to his old- school ways of using clones on the frontlines however.
But no worries! Naruto in no shape or form has to use his complete Avatar to win this fight as the latest chapter has shown me. He can easily handle this and has a better chance at winning by staying in Human form and using partial transformations.

He doesn't have to make himself a huge target. Just spawn Lord Kurama's head:
- killed
- killed

And fire off TBBz from strategic positions and keep it moving. 5 or so clones doing this and Madara will just be seeing Yellow flashes around him with nukes coming from the ground and the sky.

Law 18 in the 48th Laws of Power says,"Do not build fortresses to protect yourself – Isolation is dangerous. " Value mobility over position. It would be foolish for Naruto to play Battle-tank vs BattleTank against PS+Kurama.

It would be better to play a Motorbike packed with C4 vs a Battle-Tank. For the slow ones that don't get I'm saying...just LOL.


----------



## αce (Feb 20, 2013)

Skipping away? He caught the perfect Susano-o slash and redirected it. The other time when he was running he had a bijuu dama thrown at him, which isn't exactly fast.

This chapter made it obvious that Naruto and Sasuke have still yet to live up to Hashirama and Madara. Damage control ensues.


----------



## Sarry (Feb 20, 2013)

Wait...I thought no spoilers nor any new chapter pages outside the telegrams until Sunday passes. 

Also, lol at the damage control.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 20, 2013)

Recent chapters haven't changed much.

Scenario 1 remains the same.

Most said Madara wins scenario 2, now he wins with much less difficulty.


----------



## blk (Feb 20, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> Chapter made this fight easier for Naruto.
> 
> If Hashirama could go hoping and skipping away from this:
> - killed
> ...



Madara wasn't targeting Hashirama in the first place, and the only way that Naruto has for dodge such an attack is to stay in human form and keep moving.



> And fire off TBBz from strategic positions and keep it moving. 5 or so clones doing this and Madara will just be seeing Yellow flashes around him with nukes coming from the ground and the sky.



The moment he stops using the Shunshin no Jutsu and starts to charge a Bijuudama, he will likely be hit by a slash.

Also, you are overlooking the fact that, thanks to the newest feats, Perfect Susano'o can tank without even a scratch a standard Bijuudama, or block it with its swords and redirect it. 

Lastly, assuming that Naruto succesfully damages Perfect Susano'o to a significant extent (which will hardly happen), Madara can always reform it as he wishes.
So, i fail to see how Naruto is supposed to win with the strategy that you suggest.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Feb 20, 2013)

αce said:


> Skipping away? He caught the perfect Susano-o slash and redirected it.



I was referring to the WhirlWind Slash. We clearly see him hoping away while clearly still being in the AoE from all the rubble and debris flying around him.



> The other time when he was running he had a bijuu dama thrown at him, which isn't exactly fast.



From this panel:
- killed

It is clear Madara still sent a slash/slahes at him after proclaiming he won't let him get away...*THEN* he sent the TBB.



> This chapter made it obvious that Naruto and Sasuke have still yet to live up to Hashirama and Madara. Damage control ensues.



Naruto does not. He is currently facing the Juubi of all things.



blk said:


> Madara wasn't targeting Hashirama in the first place, and the only way that Naruto has for dodge such an attack is to stay in human form and keep moving.



Did you not see the AoE of the slash Whirlwind? Madara didn't have to be precise to capture Hashi in its effect. 



> The moment he stops using the Shunshin no Jutsu and starts to charge a Bijuudama, he will likely be hit by a slash.



Why would Naruto have to stop to moving to charge a TBB.



> Also, you are overlooking the fact that, thanks to the newest feats, Perfect Susano'o can tank without even a scratch a standard Bijuudama, or block it with its swords and redirect it.



Good thing Naruto can fire off things 30x larger than a standard BijuuDama huh?



> Lastly, assuming that Naruto succesfully damages Perfect Susano'o to a significant extent (which will hardly happen), Madara can always reform it as he wishes.



If Edo Madara does not go about instantly reforming his lower forms of Susanoo once its damaged...what on Earth makes you think he can do so in human form with PS?



> So, i fail to see how Naruto is supposed to win with the strategy that you suggest.



Ok. Next


----------



## blk (Feb 20, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> Why would Naruto have to stop to moving to charge a TBB.



Normal movements are something, the Shunshin no Jutsu is another thing.




> Good thing Naruto can fire off things 30x larger than a standard BijuuDama huh?



Only with extended charging times that he will not have against Madara.

Also, seeing how his Susano'o tanked a standard one without any damage, i think it's safe to say that it can at least prevent Madara from dying if being hit by the explosion of a much bigger Bijuudama.

And what about the possibility of blocking it with its swords? Or the possibility of intercept it mid-air with the shock wave of a slash?



> If Edo Madara does not go about instantly reforming his lower forms of Susanoo once its damaged...what on Earth makes you think he can do so in human form with PS?



I don't get what mean with this.
Susano'o is a chakra construct that can be formed/deactivated as much as the user wants..... if there is the need to reform the Perfect Susano'o, he would surely do it.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Feb 20, 2013)

Ok then.
Not one to engage in long arguments anymore.
My opinion has already been stated. Take it or leave it. I could care less.


----------



## DeK3iDE (Feb 20, 2013)

puma21 said:


> I don't see how ps is a huge problem





> Naruto wins both fights.


​
Sorry, but this is quite possibly the funniest thing i've heard in a while.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 20, 2013)

Even with the latest chapter, the first scenario doesn't change. Naruto still has more than enough firepower to bust through Perfect Susano'o, is fast enough not to be tagged by Madara's other jutsus, can block all of his attacks, etc. In a way the current chapter just reinforced how strong Kurama is exactly.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Its the _second_ scenario where things get messy and Naruto most likely loses the majority of the time. With Susano'o armored Kurama, Naruto is outclassed in firepower and defensive ability, and his speed can only take him so far.


----------



## Shinryu (Feb 20, 2013)

S1:
Madara reflects it back at Naruto then sodomizes with PS slash

S2:
Madara stomps so hard :rofl


----------



## Lurko (Feb 20, 2013)

I'm going with mads


----------



## Jak N Blak (Feb 20, 2013)

Well all know Naruto blitz-rapes before the fight even reaches the use of Susanoo and all that shit.


----------

