# CQC Fight 05: Sasuke vs Madara



## Kyu (Dec 17, 2014)

* Madara vs Sasuke (pre-rikudohood)*

*Location:* Uchiha Hideout
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Mindset:* BL
*Rules:*

Fighters stand 3 meters apart from one another
Sasuke is allowed to charge raiton through his katana
No Katon or long-ranged raiton jutsu
No Summoning Jutsu
No advanced Sharingan techniques past 3T
Madara is in his prime(pre-VotE)
This is War-arc Sauce - armed with a sword & various kunai/shuriken/ninja wire through his sleeve seals
Madara has his infamous Gunbai

*Scenario II*
.
Enton weaponry and Partial Susano'o transformations allowed.


Who wins and why? Discuss.


----------



## Blu-ray (Dec 17, 2014)

Madara obviously. Sasuke had a decent performance against the SM amped Mads, and with Raiton flowing he'd perform even better, but Madara now Madara has the same advantages(same eye) in addition to his already superior skill, speed, strength and experience. That, and unlike their little bout, Madara is bloodlusted here. The Gunbai is flat out unfair.


----------



## Zef (Dec 17, 2014)

How is Madara's prime pre-VOTE? 

Anyway Sasuke takes this(IMO) since Madara in this scenario lacks Hashirama's senjutsu. 

If Sasuke is able to wield a enton blade he wins low difficulty.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Dec 17, 2014)

wtf is this 


this sasuke was getting man handled by itachi wielding a kunai in cqc, madara ROTFL stomps him with the Gunabai


----------



## Trojan (Dec 17, 2014)

I guess its madara as well. I don't think Sasuke has that much of a taijutsu. O_O


----------



## Zef (Dec 17, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> wtf is this



WTF indeed



> this sasuke was getting man handled by itachi wielding a kunai in cqc,


War Arc Sasuke was getting man handled by Itachi despite their fight occurring during his Hebi days?



> madara ROTFL stomps him with the Gunabai


Lol, okay


Hussain said:


> I guess its madara as well. I don't think Sasuke has that much of a taijutsu. O_O


> CQC
> Taijutsu only



Do I need to post the scan of Sasuke standing over the hundreds of Sound nin? Or the 3rd Databook hyping his speed?(The same speed he used to bisect JJ Madara?).This notion of Sasuke being bad at taijutsu is ludicrous

Base Sasuke was on Hashirama's statue by the time Naruto jumped to  block with his forearm. The collision created a shock wave and cracked the statue:
implied that Kabuto attempted to have his Edo Tensei dodge the incoming blade physically


----------



## αce (Dec 17, 2014)

Madara bypassed SM Naruto's SM sensing and kicked him in the face, iirc. I don't know how this is a debate.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 17, 2014)

Zef said:


> WTF indeed
> 
> War Arc Sasuke was getting man handled by Itachi despite their fight occurring during his Hebi days?
> 
> ...



long story short, madara is better.


----------



## Kyu (Dec 18, 2014)

A second scenario has been added.




> How is Madara's prime pre-VOTE?



Hours prior to his battle with Hashirama.




> wtf is this



A thread, silly.


----------



## Arles Celes (Dec 18, 2014)

To be honest unless we consider Madara's anime feats canon it is hard to say how good he is at taijutsu.

Though given the guys that he owned at taijutsu were nameless fodders I do not see why Sasuke couldn't do the same.

Both guys are mainly ninjutsu and genjutsu users.

Sasuke is base could compete with Naruto and with Kakashi too(in their short clash in gokage meeting arc). His bladework could match Mifune's.

Madara's only and most clear advantage is his fan being better than Sasuke's sword. Thanks to that he probably wins but hardly with ease.

IMO all top tiers like Hashi, Naruto, Madara or Sasuke are roughly equal in taijutsu and what breaks the tie is when someone like Guy uses Gates to amplify speed and power way beyond the normal level. Then it is overwhelming an opponent not through more skillful taijutsu but with greater raw power via a ninjutsu powered taijutsu.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Dec 18, 2014)

Zef said:


> WTF indeed
> 
> War Arc Sasuke was getting man handled by Itachi despite their fight occurring during his Hebi days?



War arc sasuke restricted to 3 tomoe sharingon is basically heibi sasuke, his upgrade in power came from ms and ms techniques after that point, so im not seeing how him being war arc makes any difference if he's restricted to 3 tomoe.



itachi also had better reactions then sasuke in the kabuto fight so imo sasuke cannot keep up with somebody like madara in a pure cqc/kenjutsu bout, the mere fact that he has the gunbai means he beats sauce with no diff, the thing was reflecting min bijudama's from kcm naruto.







sasuke's still loses scenario 2, madara outlast's him with superior chakra if where allowing susano variants, sasuke's only chance would be to prep kirin but the thread doesn't allow it.


----------



## tkpirate (Dec 18, 2014)

Madara should win this with mid-high difficulty.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> Madara obviously. Sasuke had a decent performance against the SM amped Mads, and with Raiton flowing he'd perform even better, but Madara now Madara has the same advantages(same eye) in addition to his already superior skill, speed, strength and experience. That, and unlike their little bout, Madara is bloodlusted here. The Gunbai is flat out unfair.



Sasuke never had a decent performance against Madara, because Madara was toying with him. Madara wanted to use Sasuke just like he used Obito.

Anime feats are canon, unless proven otherwise. And Madara is one of the best taijutsu specialists in Narutoverse, because of his Taijutsu feats.

Madara wins.


----------



## Zef (Dec 18, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> To be honest unless we consider Madara's anime feats canon it is hard to say how good he is at taijutsu.
> 
> Though given the guys that he owned at taijutsu were nameless fodders I do not see why Sasuke couldn't do the same.



Exactly this. Madara's taijutsu bout with the Alliance was brief In the manga so I fail to see where these feats from him are coming from. I think people are using the anime when hyping his his CQC abilities, which would be fine if the anime counted as canon. However I'm not sure if the OP is considering anime feats or not.



Bkprince33 said:


> War arc sasuke restricted to 3 tomoe sharingon is basically heibi sasuke,


 Not even close.



> his upgrade in power came from ms and ms techniques after that point,


Which isn't allowed in the above scenario. 


> I'm not seeing how him being war arc makes any difference if he's restricted to 3 tomoe.


Because this is CQC. War Arc Sasuke has things he can use in CQC that Hebi Sasuke can't do.
Look at the second scenario in the OP as reference. 



> itachi also had better reactions then sasuke in the kabuto fight


> Better reactions
> Got bisected by chakra scalpel 
> Would have gotten sealed if not for:
    -Sasuke throwing his sword
    -Sasuke following up sword throw with Susano'o arm



> imo sasuke cannot keep up with somebody like madara in a pure cqc/kenjutsu bout, the mere fact that he has the gunbai means he beats sauce with no diff, the thing was reflecting min bijudama's from kcm naruto.


You're using a fight Madara had with Naruto to judge how a fight with Sasuke would go? *Madara without SM* kicked Naruto to the side, and stole Hashirama's senjutsu. *Madara with SM* dodged all of Sasuke's sword swings yet commented on his movements, albeit that was with EMS, and not base sharingan.



> sasuke's still loses scenario 2,


I definitely disagree here. I'm willing to concede to the first scenario, but there is no way Madara survives in CQC with Sasuke wielding an enton sword. 


> madara outlast's him with superior chakra if where allowing susano variants, sasuke's only chance would be to prep kirin but the thread doesn't allow it.


I may be wrong, but I don't think Kirin is allowed.


----------



## Kai (Dec 18, 2014)

Uchihagaeshi obliterates Sasuke. According to Databook 4, Uchihagaeshi is classified as Wind Release, which towers over any sort of Raiton infusion Sasuke adds to his weaponry.


----------



## LostSelf (Dec 18, 2014)

Aside from what Kai said, living Madara speedblitzed SM Naruto. The man is in another level than War Sasuke in taijutsu, and with a superior weapon on top of it, Sasuke doesn't have much of a chance.


----------



## Blu-ray (Dec 18, 2014)

While I still don't see Sasuke coming out on top, it's absurd to think Madara's gonna be stomping. The one that Sasuke fought in canon was superior to EMS mads as far as CQC goes thanks to SM, Hashi cells, and the durability, strength, reactions, and overall enhanced movements that came with it.

Restrict the Gunbai and give Sasuke EMS precog. Only way really.



Bkprince33 said:


> wtf is this
> 
> 
> this sasuke was getting man handled by itachi wielding a kunai in cqc, madara ROTFL stomps him with the Gunabai



This is War Arc Sasuke, not Hebi Sasuke. There's a year long gap between the two.



αce said:


> Madara bypassed SM Naruto's SM sensing and kicked him in the face, iirc. I don't know how this is a debate.



Because he failed to do the same to Sasuke when they clashed a second later.



StarWanderer said:


> Sasuke never had a decent performance against Madara, because Madara was toying with him. Madara wanted to use Sasuke just like he used Obito.
> 
> Anime feats are canon, unless proven otherwise. And Madara is one of the best taijutsu specialists in Narutoverse, because of his Taijutsu feats.
> 
> Madara wins.



Madara was toying? Says who, you? Even he commented on how good Sasuke's moves were, while he smacked SM Naruto aside like nothing.

Nothing that's anime only, feats included, is canon unless Kishi states otherwise. Not sure where you got that BS, but it's absurd considering it often contradicts the feats in the manga and outright gives them abilities impossible for them to have. 

Tenten was using the Bashosen for a good while in the anime despite almost dying from using it once in the manga, and Kakashi was using fucking Ice Release.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Dec 18, 2014)

Zef said:


> Not even close.
> 
> 
> Which isn't allowed in the above scenario.
> ...




That arguement was made before the second scenerio was added, 3T sasuke with no susano gets steamrolled by madara as for reasons i already stated above.



Zef said:


> > Better reactions
> > Got bisected by chakra scalpel
> > Would have gotten sealed if not for:
> -Sasuke throwing his sword
> -Sasuke following up sword throw with Susano'o arm


Ok that's nice to know, kabuto never targeted sasuke as aggressively as he targeted itachi, if he did, there's nothing to suggest the same thing wouldn't had happened to sasuke.

you also failed to addressed how itachi reacted to white rage while sasuke helplessly stood there as well as the other times itachi saved sasuke, and reacted faster to most of kabuto's techniques, your statements don't counter anything i said, all you did was bring up examples of when itachi got hit but you provided no examples of sasuke reacting faster then itachi.



Zef said:


> You're using a fight Madara had with Naruto to judge how a fight with Sasuke would go? *Madara without SM* kicked Naruto to the side, and stole Hashirama's senjutsu. *Madara with SM* dodged all of Sasuke's sword swings yet commented on his movements, albeit that was with EMS, and not base sharingan.



No im showing you if it can deflect that level off attack with ease, then everything sasuke has in scenerio 1 gets Laughed at 

Thanks for killing your own point, theres nothing to suggest 3T sasuke could follow madaras movements and for the record Sm naruto Would destroy Ems sasuke in a pure cqc match.



Zef said:


> I definitely disagree here. I'm willing to concede to the first scenario, but there is no way Madara survives in CQC with Sasuke wielding an enton sword.
> 
> 
> I may be wrong, but I don't think Kirin is allowed.



I already stated in my arguement kirin is restricted.

Im not seeing how sasuke is busting madara's susano with a enton blade when madara's susano has way better durability feats at that point in the manga.


----------



## Source (Dec 18, 2014)

> Base Sasuke was on Hashirama's statue by the time Naruto jumped to block with his forearm. The collision created a shock wave and cracked the statue



I don't think this is post Hagoromo power-up Sasuke. 

That's just a stomp.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

> Madara was toying? Says who, you? Even he commented on how good Sasuke's moves were, while he smacked SM Naruto aside like nothing.
> 
> Nothing that's anime only, feats included, is canon unless Kishi states otherwise. Not sure where you got that BS, but it's absurd considering it often contradicts the feats in the manga and outright gives them abilities impossible for them to have.
> 
> Tenten was using the Bashosen for a good while in the anime despite almost dying from using it once in the manga, and Kakashi was using fucking Ice Release.



Madara easily dodged all his attacks while not attacking himself and in the end, grabed his sword easily and told him he want him to join since they are the last living Uchiha. Simple logic says so. Madara wasnt trying to kill/knock him out.

And since when the fact he commented that he knows why Sasuke can move so well proves anything? Madara wasnt trying to fight him seriously. And if he wanted to, he would have grabed his sword at the beginning and killed him.

Has Kishi ever stated Anime isnt canon? At least once. Anime could be even a more canonical version of manga.



> Because he failed to do the same to Sasuke when they clashed a second later.



Because he didnt even try to stomp Sasuke right away. 

Madara is faster, stronger, has more chakra, dont care about genjutsu, amaterasu, can use Uchiha Return with his Gunbai to deflect any attack Sasuke can through at him. And his Susanoo is more powerful. Madara wins both scenarios


----------



## Zef (Dec 18, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> That arguement was made before the second scenerio was added, 3T sasuke with no susano gets steamrolled by madara as for reasons i already stated above.


Said reasons is nothing, but wank. There is no "steamrolling" Madara will do with his manga feats.




> Ok that's nice to know, kabuto never targeted sasuke as aggressively as he targeted itachi, if he did, there's nothing to suggest the same thing wouldn't had happened to sasuke


Then what is the point of you claiming Itachi has superior reactions if you have nothing to base it off of?
This:

Destroys that argument.



> you also failed to addressed how itachi reacted to white rage while sasuke helplessly stood there


Reacting=/=Unable to do anything despite reacting

The light, and sound both reached Sasuke, and Itachi at the same time. Sasuke had Susano'o up and wasn't able to maintain it. Itachi didn't have Susano'o up so was able to activate in a short time frame in order to prevent Kabuto from capturing Sasuke.

*Spoiler*: __ 










> as well as the other times itachi saved sasuke,


how can you say this?

When you said this?:

*Spoiler*: __ 





> *Ok that's nice to know, kabuto never targeted sasuke as aggressively as he targeted itachi,* if he did, there's nothing to suggest the same thing wouldn't had happened to sasuke






The other times he "saved" Sasuke was when Kabuto wasn't even try to kill Sasuke.




> and reacted faster to most of kabuto's techniques,


Which I already proved false.


> your statements don't counter anything i said, all you did was bring up examples of when itachi got hit but you provided no examples of sasuke reacting faster then itachi.








> No im showing you if it can deflect that level off attack with ease, then everything sasuke has in scenerio 1 gets Laughed at


This is under the assumption that the attack would land on the fan. Naruto was in midair, and had no way of maneuvering his trajectory away from the fan.



> Thanks for killing your own point, theres nothing to suggest 3T sasuke could follow madaras movements and for the record Sm naruto Would destroy Ems sasuke in a pure cqc match.



How did I destroy my point when Madara doesn't have SM in the OP? 

My implication was that SM is what allowed Madara to dodge Sasuke's sword strikes. Unless we're going to chalk it up to his hearing or some shit.



> I already stated in my arguement kirin is restricted.
> 
> Im not seeing how sasuke is busting madara's susano with a enton blade when madara's susano has way better durability feats at that point in the manga.


Where did I mention anything about enton busting Madara's susano'o?


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

> My implication was that SM is what allowed Madara to dodge Sasuke's sword strikes.



Madara could easily dodge any of Sasuke's attacks even without SM. His speed feats are much better. And when he faced Sasuke, he was obviously toying with him, not even trying to attack him. He wanted to use Sasuke just like he used Obito, saying to him that they are the last Uchihas. If he wanted to, he would have blitzed him, just like he blitzed SM Naruto. 

Madara has everything to easily beat Sasuke in both of these scenarious. He can deflect any of Sasuke's attacks with his Gunbai, he is physically much stronger, much faster, has much better, stronger chakra, much more experience, can not be countered by Genjutsu, or Amaterasu. And his Susanoo is more powerfull. Madara is tier above Sasuke.


----------



## Zef (Dec 18, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Madara could easily dodge any of Sasuke's attacks even without SM.


Assumption



> His speed feats are much better.




Please...

Should I post a scan of Hebi/Taka Sasuke's speed feats?
-Blitzing Team 7 
-Blitzing Akatsuki members
-Dodging Bee and Raikage's linear attacks

What speed feats does VOTE Madara have that wasn't blown out of proportion by the anime?


> And when he faced Sasuke, he was obviously toying with him,


According to what? Your head canon?



> not even trying to attack him.


Yeah, because he was trying to get to the Bijuu's.



> He wanted to use Sasuke just like he used Obito,


Which he failed at doing. In fact Madara wanked Sasuke above Obito.


Dat Choku Tomoe



> saying to him that they are the last Uchihas. If he wanted to, he would have blitzed him, just like he blitzed SM Naruto.


This is all speculation. 



> Madara has everything to easily beat Sasuke in both of these scenarious.


Okay 


> He can deflect any of Sasuke's attacks with his Gunbai,


>Implying attacks hit Gunbai



> he is physically much stronger,


 
Call me when Madara makes shockwaves with raw strength.



> much faster,


Yet he praised Sasuke's speed, and hasn't shown adequate manga feats that match Sasuke's. 



> has much better, stronger chakra,


Hebi Sasuke's charkra was compared to Madara's. Since then according to Karin it has gotten stronger.Do the math.


> much more experience,


Which is irrelevant in this manga. At 17 Naruto and Sasuke can best the most experienced shinobi.



> can not be countered by Genjutsu, or Amaterasu.


Amatrasu yes,Genjutsu is an assumption.


> And his Susanoo is more powerfull. Madara is tier above Sasuke.


Yes, above EMS Sasuke.


----------



## Blu-ray (Dec 18, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Madara easily dodged all his attacks while not attacking himself and in the end, grabed his sword easily and told him he want him to join since they are the last living Uchiha. Simple logic says so. Madara wasnt trying to kill/knock him out.



He wasn't attacking because he was obviously dodging, and he didn't even dodge all of them like you claim. He got sliced on his shoulder in addition to when he let himself get impaled to divert the sword from his heart.

I also reread that little bout again. This all happened before Madara even noticed his eyes and asked him to join him, and even Madara scrapped the idea as soon as it came up.



> And since when the fact he commented that he knows why Sasuke can move so well proves anything? Madara wasnt trying to fight him seriously. *And if he wanted to, he would have grabed his sword at the beginning and killed him.*



Where is your proof of the bold exactly? Your own assumption? Sasuke could read and react to even Juubito's movements, Madara complements his, and never actually bests Sasuke in CQC, yet in your head Madara is just gonna effortlessly disarm and kill him using nothing but CQC skills?



> Has Kishi ever stated Anime isnt canon? At least once. Anime could be even a more canonical version of manga.



Has he ever said the anime was canon? It goes without saying that it's not since it contradicts what's in the manga. An example: In the anime Utakata was alive, knew Naruto, and they were familiar when he was Edo Tensei'd. In the manga he died before the start of part 2 and he and Naruto never met. 

And even more canon than the manga? You do realize that Kishi, the one who writes the manga, is not the same guy in charge of the anime right?


----------



## Zef (Dec 18, 2014)

Since the vast majority think Madara wins I'll concede, and vote Madara.

Though I fail to see how it'll be a stomp.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Dec 18, 2014)

Zef said:


> Said reasons is nothing, but wank. There is no "steamrolling" Madara will do with his manga feats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




How about you post the next page when itachi scolds sasuke for throwing the sword in fear that it may have killed kabuto 

They both have susano, itachi was able to intercept kabuto and strike him, sasuke just stood still, you make it seem as if sasuke didn't have access to the samething itachi used.



If itachi reacted and countered with susano why didn't sauske?

I can say that because that's what happened in canon, for example itachi used susano to defend sasuke instead of himself when kabuto stabbed him with the rocks, and again sasuke just stood there, he didn't attempt to defend itachi or himself.



Kabuto not attempting to kill sasuke is not a exscuse for him not reacting and trying to defend himself or his brother.


Again itachi scolded sasuke for throwing the sword, that indicates itachi saw him, but simply chose not to attack in fear of killing him.


The data book states that was a wind release, theres no reason to assume madara couldn't blow sasuke away before he even made contact with the fan and kcm naruto >>>>>>>>> 3t sasuke.



Where going to chalk it up to sasuke having inferior precognition in this scenerio 3t.


----------



## Veracity (Dec 18, 2014)

Madara would stomp Sasuke . Bliztes his ass just like naruto got blitzed.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

> Assumption





> Spoiler:
> 
> Please...
> 
> ...



Why bringing here Rikudou Sasuke's feats? This thread is not about *that* Sasuke. Its about pre-rikudou Sasuke.

But ok, let the dance begin.

1. Alive Madara, without ayes, blitzed SM Naruto and Sai effortlessly.
2. Edo Madara easily reacted to Raikage and blocked his punch.
3. Edo Madara clones were able to react to Raikage.
4. Edo Madara effortlessly dodged Gaara's sand that reacted to Raikage.
5. Edo Madara, in general, easily reacted to 5 kage.
6. Edo Madara was blitzing the whole 4th Division with his taijutsu only. 

Keep in mind that Edo Madara has weaker body than alive Madara. Edo Madara couldnt use his full potential.


Madara had SM at the moment of his fight with Sasuke, but he was blind. Therefore, he could not predict Sasuke's movements the way he does with his EMS.

Madara's speed/reflexes feats are superior to those of pre-rikudou Sasuke. He is on another speed tier.



> According to what? Your head canon?



According to simple logic. He didnt even try to counter attack Sasuke - he was avoiding his attacks easily and than, he easily grabed his sword. After that, he asked Sasuke to join. Plus, Madara's speed and reflexes feats are much better. 

So Madara indeed was toying with him.



> Which he failed at doing. In fact Madara wanked Sasuke above Obito.
> Spoiler:
> 
> 
> Dat Choku Tomoe



And? Pre-Rikudou Sasuke is still inferior to Madara, including speed.



> This is all speculation.



Yeah, especially after seeing how easily he grabbed his sword. Such a *"speculation"* here.



> >Implying attacks hit Gunbai



He is fast enough to block Sasuke's attacks with his gunbai. 



> Yet he praised Sasuke's speed, and hasn't shown adequate manga feats that match Sasuke's.



1. So what?
2. He did. See above.



> Hebi Sasuke's charkra was compared to Madara's. Since then according to Karin it has gotten stronger.Do the math.



In terms of its evilness, according to 9 Tails. And Tobirama told Sasuke could potencially overcome Madara. Could, but never did up to the Rikudou power-up moment. Thats all.



> Which is irrelevant in this manga. At 17 Naruto and Sasuke can best the most experienced shinobi.



Ok, with that, i can agree.



> Amatrasu yes,Genjutsu is an assumption.



Sasuke's genjutsu feats are not good enough to tell he can put in a genjutsu another Uchiha with EMS.



> Yes, above EMS Sasuke.



Of course. Its nice that we agree on that.  Thats what i am talking about.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

> He wasn't attacking because he was obviously dodging, and he didn't even dodge all of them like you claim. He got sliced on his shoulder in addition to when he let himself get impaled to divert the sword from his heart.
> 
> I also reread that little bout again. This all happened before Madara even noticed his eyes and asked him to join him, and even Madara scrapped the idea as soon as it came up.



He wasnt sliced in his shoulder - the only injury he got was when he grabbed his sword. And he did it, easily. Dodged all his attacks and easily, effortlessly took grabbed his sword, asking Sasuke to join him. Madara was toying with him.

Yes, scrapped, but it proves nothing in our debate. And how can you tell he didnt feel them from the beginning? His sensori abilities allowed him to sense Hashirama's chakra long before he came to battlefield. I think he felt it up to that moment.



> Where is your proof of the bold exactly? Your own assumption? Sasuke could read and react to even Juubito's movements, Madara complements his, and never actually bests Sasuke in CQC, yet in your head Madara is just gonna effortlessly disarm and kill him using nothing but CQC skills?



Only to Gudoudama's movements, as i remember. And only with his Susanoo. And only to few of them.

Yep. Madara is much faster. And he was toying with Sasuke. Add to that, Madara has better speed feats than Sasuke.



> Has he ever said the anime was canon? It goes without saying that it's not since it contradicts what's in the manga. An example: In the anime Utakata was alive, knew Naruto, and they were familiar when he was Edo Tensei'd. In the manga he died before the start of part 2 and he and Naruto never met.
> 
> And even more canon than the manga? You do realize that Kishi, the one who writes the manga, is not the same guy in charge of the anime right?



Maybe manga contradicts what is in anime. You wanna know what is canon? You ask Kishimoto himself. Until that moment, i think its right to use all feats, no matter - manga, or anime. 

Kishi knows about anime and never said - "How can that be?!" "That anime is wrong" etc.

So i'll repeat, you better ask Kishimoto himself about what is canon - manga, or anime.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

So much wrong shit in this thread I don't even know where to begin.

1. SM Naruto blocked Madara's kick, it wasn't a blitz.
2. Sasuke throwing a sword does not make him have faster reactions than Itachi. Don't even know how you got that.
3. Hebi Sasuke didn't blitz team 7. Both Sai(not sure if he did) and Yamato kept up.
4. Sasuke didn't blitz any akatsuki member.  
5. Sasuke didn't dodge Bee, he got his chest blown the fuck open. Got 6 swords through his body for thinking he held a candle to Bee. 
6. Sasuke cutting juubi jin Madara means shit as Sasuke was powered by SoT6P chakra.
7. Sasuke is not strong physically. He kicked Bee in the chest and Bee didn't even flinch. Literally no damage at all.


----------



## Zef (Dec 18, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> How about you post the next page when itachi scolds sasuke for throwing the sword in fear that it may have killed kabuto


This is relevant how?



> They both have susano, itachi was able to intercept kabuto and strike him, sasuke just stood still, you make it seem as if sasuke didn't have access to the samething itachi used.


Did you even read my post, or the scan I provided? 
-Sasuke has version 3 Susano'o activated
-Itachi has no Susano'o activated
-Sasuke due to having it activated before Kabuto's attack is now unable to maintain it.
-Itachi who had his deactivated before hand uses it to shield Sasuke for a short amount time till the flash bang ends.

It's not complicated. 



> If itachi reacted and countered with susano why didn't sauske?


Read above. 



> I can say that because that's what happened in canon, for example itachi used susano to defend sasuke instead of himself when kabuto stabbed him with the rocks, and again sasuke just stood there, he didn't attempt to defend itachi or himself.
> 
> Kabuto not attempting to kill sasuke is not a exscuse for him not reacting and trying to defend himself or his brother.


Did he not use Amaterasu to shield his brother from Kabuto?




> Again itachi scolded sasuke for throwing the sword, that indicates itachi saw him, but simply chose not to attack in fear of killing him.


> "Itachi saw him"
> Itachi says he can't pinpoint Kabuto's location.



> The data book states that was a wind release,


Sasuke has fire.


> theres no reason to assume madara couldn't blow sasuke away before he even made contact with the fan


Why not?


> and kcm naruto >>>>>>>>> 3t sasuke.


Which is irrelevant



> Where going to chalk it up to sasuke having inferior precognition in this scenerio 3t.


Which makes no sense since Madara has repeatedly praised Sasuke's precog, and even says Sasuke has the same Choku Tomoe as him.



Likes boss said:


> Madara would stomp Sasuke . Bliztes his ass just like naruto got blitzed.


What a compelling argument
/sarcasm



StarWanderer said:


> Why bringing here Rikudou Sasuke's feats? This thread is not about *that* Sasuke. Its about pre-rikudou Sasuke.


> Implying the feats I listed as belonging to Hebi, and Taka Sasuke are the same as Rikudou Sasuke's. 
> Implying Rikudou Sasuke gained a physical stat boost in the span of a day.



> But ok, let the dance begin.


You can't dance though



> 1. Alive Madara, without ayes, blitzed SM Naruto and Sai effortlessly.


They aren't Sasuke


> 2. Edo Madara easily reacted to Raikage and blocked his punch.


He's not Sasuke. 


> 3. Edo Madara clones were able to react to Raikage.


Still not Sasuke. 


> 4. Edo Madara effortlessly dodged Gaara's sand that reacted to Raikage.


Sasuke did the same at Kage Summit


> 5. Edo Madara, in general, easily reacted to 5 kage.


Good for them. Now let's talk about Sasuke. 


> 6. Edo Madara was blitzing the whole 4th Division with his taijutsu only.


Aside from the fact that this is mostly an anime feat....
Sasuke did something similar in early Part 2 without killing anyone. 

Furthermore:
What Madara can do to other people=/=What he can do to Sasuke




> Keep in mind that Edo Madara has weaker body than alive Madara. Edo Madara couldnt use his full potential.


Noted.



> Madara had SM at the moment of his fight with Sasuke, but he was blind. Therefore, he could not predict Sasuke's movements the way he does with his EMS.


But he still predicted said movements because of having SM.



> Madara's speed/reflexes feats are superior to those of pre-rikudou Sasuke.


Again, based on what? 



> on another speed tier.


Read above



> According to simple logic.


You say this yet maintain that blind Madara would have effortlessly dodged Sasuke's attack without SM.



> He didnt even try to counter attack Sasuke


Because he was trying to capture the tailed beast.



> - he was avoiding his attacks easily and than, he easily grabed his sword.


Yeah,  due to having SM which isn't a part of OP's scenario. 



> After that, he asked Sasuke to join.


How is this relevant? 


> Plus, Madara's speed and reflexes feats are much better.


You say this, but aside from him besting the alliance in CQC (which several top tiers can do) there are no feats of VOTE Madara having better feats in speed yet alone reflexes. JJ Madara, who is vastly superior to the one being discussed in this thread got blitzed three times by Sasuke in a single chapter. One of those times was due to pure speed. 



> So Madara indeed was toying with him.


Perhaps in your head canon. 



> And? Pre-Rikudou Sasuke is still inferior to Madara, including speed.


You have yet to prove your stance. All your hype about VOTE Madara's physical capabilities is just that:Hype. 



> Yeah, especially after seeing how easily he grabbed his sword. Such a *"speculation"* here.


If it isn't made clear in the story, and is unsupported; it's speculation.



> He is fast enough to block Sasuke's attacks with his gunbai.


I actually saw this in Storm 3. To bad it didn't happen in the manga.  



> 1. So what?
> 2. He did. See above.


1.Madara doesn't hand out compliments to just anyone. 
2.He didn't. 



> In terms of its evilness, according to 9 Tails.


Nope


> And Tobirama told Sasuke could potencially overcome Madara.


That was Oro.....


> Could, but never did up to the Rikudou power-up moment. Thats all.


And what does this contribute to the discussion at hand besides unnecessary wank?



> Ok, with that, i can agree.







> Sasuke's genjutsu feats are not good enough to tell he can put in a genjutsu another Uchiha with EMS.


EMS isn't allowed in the OP.



> of course. Its nice that we agree on that.  Thats what i am talking about.



Yes, I agree Madara with EMS is overall above Sasuke with EMS due to the lack of Sasuke's PS feats. Madara with three tomoe being above Sasuke with three tomoe in terms of CQC makes no sense to me however due to lack of feats for Madara. I can post Databook scans and manga scans showing Sasuke's proficiency in CQC. You can't do the same for Madara other than point me towards the anime.


----------



## Source (Dec 18, 2014)

Post Hagoromo Sasuke stomps, pre Hagoromo loses.



> > Implying Rikudou Sasuke gained a physical stat boost in the span of a day.



All his other stats increased tremendously and he's conveniently never shown shockwave-creating physical strikes before.

So probably.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

Zef said:


> Yes, I agree Madara with EMS is overall above Sasuke with EMS due to the lack of Sasuke's PS feats. Madara with three tomoe being above Sasuke with three tomoe in terms of CQC makes no sense to me however due to lack of feats for Madara. I can post Databook scans and manga scans showing Sasuke's proficiency in CQC. You can't do the same for Madara other than point me towards the anime.



Go ahead and posts those scans. I won't point you towards the anime and use only manga scans.

1. Madara is faster.
2. Madara is more skilled.
3. Madara is stronger.

I would bet you can't disprove that with anything. I'll posts scans later.


----------



## Krippy (Dec 18, 2014)

Give Madara any other weapon besides his Gunbai and Sasuke cuts him in half. But Madara stomps with the Gunbai. 

It makes quite the difference here as neither is above the other in terms of CQC.

Enton weapons dominate scenario 2.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

> > Implying the feats I listed as belonging to Hebi, and Taka Sasuke are the same as Rikudou Sasuke's.
> > Implying Rikudou Sasuke gained a physical stat boost in the span of a day.
> > Implying Rikudou Sasuke gained a physical stat boost in the span of a day.



Sasuke never blitzed Akatsuki member, Sasuke was clearly inferior to Ei in terms of speed, and Sasuke never dodged Gaara's sand. But you can post scans here if you want.

And dont put pre-Rikudou Sasukes feats on the same place as Rikudou Sasuke. Rikudou Sasuke got boost from SoSP.



> You can't dance though



Wrong.



> They aren't Sasuke



Still very impressive.



> He's not Sasuke.



He is faster than Sasuke.



> Still not Sasuke.



Still faster than Sasuke.



> Sasuke did the same at Kage Summit



Proof please.



> Good for them. Now let's talk about Sasuke.



And good for Madara, since that is more impressive than anything pre-rikudou Sasuke has shown so far.



> Aside from the fact that this is mostly an anime feat....
> Sasuke did something similar in early Part 2 without killing anyone.
> 
> Furthermore:
> What Madara can do to other people=/=What he can do to Sasuke



He did it on a bigger scale than Sasuke.



> But he still predicted said movements because of having SM.



SM didnt give him the same precognition ability as EMS, plus SM doesnt give precognition at all. But i may be wrong. It is up to you to bring scans here.



> Again, based on what?



Based on feats. Madara reacted to Raikage no problem, while Sasuke had troubles with him and was shown to be inferior to Raikage in terms of speed.



> You say this yet maintain that blind Madara would have effortlessly dodged Sasuke's attack without SM.



Base on feats, he would have dodged him even without SM.



> Because he was trying to capture the tailed beast.



LOL. At the moment when he fought Sasuke? He effortlessly dodged Sasuke without trying to counter attack him. After that, he easily grabbed his sword and asked him to join.



> Yeah, due to having SM which isn't a part of OP's scenario.



And due to his own speed. Base on feats, Madara would have dodged him anyway.



> You say this, but aside from him besting the alliance in CQC (which several top tiers can do) there are no feats of VOTE Madara having better feats in speed yet alone reflexes. JJ Madara, who is vastly superior to the one being discussed in this thread got blitzed three times by Sasuke in a single chapter. One of those times was due to pure speed.



Because Sasuke got amp from SoSP. Base Sasuke could not hope of doing something like that to even base EMS Madara, or Edo Madara, let alone Juubidara.

And eyah - Madara's speed feats are better. he had no troubles with Raikage, who was faster than Sasuke.



> Perhaps in your head canon.



No, it is logical.



> You have yet to prove your stance. All your hype about VOTE Madara's physical capabilities is just that:Hype.



Madara easily reacted to raikage, his clones reacted to Raikage and he blitzed SM Naruto. Sasuke never blitzed anyone of SM Naruto caliber. Here is your proof.



> If it isn't made clear in the story, and is unsupported; it's speculation.



It is made clear, its is understandable. based on feats and logic.



> I actually saw this in Storm 3. To bad it didn't happen in the manga.



Too bad Madara easily blocked mini TBB with it, while easily reacting to naruto's clone in Bijuu Mode. And Sasuke's Katon wont matter, since Madara's Katon is far better.



> 1.Madara doesn't hand out compliments to just anyone.
> 2.He didn't.



1. Yet Sasuke is still inferior to him.
2. He did.



> Nope



Ok. Bring here at least 1 scan where someone says Sasuke's chakra is comparable to that of Madara in terms of power.



> And what does this contribute to the discussion at hand besides unnecessary wank?



Guess who's talking about wank. 



> Yes, I agree Madara with EMS is overall above Sasuke with EMS due to the lack of Sasuke's PS feats. Madara with three tomoe being above Sasuke with three tomoe in terms of CQC makes no sense to me however due to lack of feats for Madara. I can post Databook scans and manga scans showing Sasuke's proficiency in CQC. You can't do the same for Madara other than point me towards the anime.



Not only due to lack os Sasuke's PS feats. 

Madara's speed feats are better. Madara can counter any jutsu Sasuke has. Madara is stronger physically. Madara is smarter. Madara has better chakra. Madara is like Sasuke, but much improved. He is better than Sasuke in every way there is. 

Show me at least 1 scan that proves Sasuke is better than Madara in CQC. or faster than Madara.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> So much wrong shit in this thread I don't even know where to begin.
> 
> 1. SM Naruto blocked Madara's kick, it wasn't a blitz.
> 2. Sasuke throwing a sword does not make him have faster reactions than Itachi. Don't even know how you got that.
> ...



He put his hands in a block stance *after* Madara hit him.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

^No he didn't. Saying he got kicked and then blocked is stupid. We see Madara move, Naruto and Sai both get hit in the same panel and in that panel Naruto is blocking. He blocked it.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> ^No he didn't. Saying he got kicked and then blocked is stupid. We see Madara move, Naruto and Sai both get hit in the same panel and in that panel Naruto is blocking. He blocked it.



Watch it carefuly. Naruto put his hands in a block stance after Madara hit him and flyes away. Naruto was just to slow to put it in time. So he put it, but just a moment after Madara hit him.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 18, 2014)

Give both ems precog and sasuke edges it he was edging a sm madara in cqc...lets not go crazy with the madar wank...im not a sasukefan at all but give the guy his due credit..amaterasu weapons should make it easier..


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Give both ems precog and sasuke edges it he was edging a sm madara in cqc...lets not go crazy with the madar wank...im not a sasukefan at all but give the guy his due credit..amaterasu weapons should make it easier..



Oh lol, i loled hard.

First, there was completely no edge at all. Madara effortlessly dodged his attacks without trying to hit back and than easily grabbed his sword. He was toying with Sasuke.

Second, Amaterasu will have no affect on Madara. He absorbed Sasuke's Amaterasu with no effort.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Watch it carefuly. Naruto put his hands in a block stance after Madara hit him and flyes away. Naruto was just to slow to put it in time. So he put it, but just a moment after Madara hit him.



Here's a hint: ANIME DON'T GO HERE. This isn't where we discuss anime feats, we discuss manga feats.


----------



## ki0 (Dec 18, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Oh lol, i loled hard.
> 
> First, there was completely no edge at all. Madara effortlessly dodged his attacks without trying to hit back and than easily grabbed his sword. He was toying with Sasuke.
> 
> Second, Amaterasu will have no affect on Madara. He absorbed Sasuke's Amaterasu with no effort.



Or Madara didn't have a chance to hit back, because he was busy dodging.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

Madara didn't have any fucking eyes. He was toying with Sasuke there, plain and simple.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Madara didn't have any fucking eyes. He was toying with Sasuke there, plain and simple.



Right sages are greatly hindered by eyesight......dude dodged the attacks but was hit and grabbed the sword to stop its movement and then complimented sasukes movements and his tomtoe...sure he could beat sasuke with mokuton ect but in cqc he was edged give sasuke his feats ..


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Right sages are greatly hindered by eyesight......dude dodged the attacks but was hit and grabbed the sword to stop its movement and then complimented sasukes movements and his tomtoe...sure he could beat sasuke with mokuton ect but in cqc he was edged give sasuke his feats ..



Jiraiya pointed out sensors can't react as well as seeing with your eyes. And that's common sense. Madara who just smacked Naruto and Sai away, couldn't do anything to Sasuke in taijutsu? LOLOL.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Dec 18, 2014)

Zef said:


> This is relevant how?


this is relevant because it shows even if itachi did pin point him he would of refrained from hitting him, just because sauce threw his sword doesn't mean he has better reactions.



Zef said:


> Did you even read my post, or the scan I provided?
> -Sasuke has version 3 Susano'o activated
> -Itachi has no Susano'o activated
> -Sasuke due to having it activated before Kabuto's attack is now unable to maintain it.
> -Itachi who had his deactivated before hand uses it to shield Sasuke for a short amount time till the flash bang ends.



and this explains how itachi was able to run over to sauce and move while sauce just stood still dumbfounded? even if he couldn't activate susano why stay still? why not attempt to put some kind of defense up? and also what kept sauce from reactivating susano if itachi was able to activate it under these conditions?







Zef said:


> Did he not use Amaterasu to shield his brother from Kabuto?



yes in a entire different scenerio, im talking about when kabuto used the rocks, itachi reacted and chose to guard sasuke, sasuke stood still and dumbfounded and didn't protect himself or itachi 




Zef said:


> > "Itachi saw him"
> > Itachi says he can't pinpoint Kabuto's location.



neither could pinpoint his location at first, they where looking for a hidden enemy, what does this have to do with speed and reactions? 



Zef said:


> Sasuke has fire.



madar has stronger fire 






Zef said:


> Which is irrelevant



in a cqc battle it's actually very relevent, edo madara who is inferior to alive madara reacted to kcm naruto and countered, kcm naruto is faster then sasuke by a large margin, in a cqc bout how is sasuke touching madara when kcm naruto with back up couldn't? 



Zef said:


> Which makes no sense since Madara has repeatedly praised Sasuke's precog, and even says Sasuke has the same Choku Tomoe as him.



madara praised ems sauske not 3T sauce

i mean look at itachi vs bee and then look at sauce vs bee, itachi was able to to go toe to toe with bee and even suprise him on many occasions, sauce with back up got his ass whooped.


madara with the gunabai would no diff itachi in cqc, so sauce would get steamrolled like everybody else is saying


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Here's a hint: ANIME DON'T GO HERE. This isn't where we discuss anime feats, we discuss manga feats.



I personally think anime feats can be allowed. Kishi never stated Anime isnt canon anyway. But ok. Lets see it in manga.

* Lee a matter of mere seconds to open the 6th gate, *

There is a "punching bubble", as i call it. And there is a distance between bubble and Naruto. In picture his arms are high, but we can not be sure he blocked Madara's hit. And in anime, if you look carefully, you can see that Madara hit him a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitle bit earlier before he put arms in a block stance. 

There are more chances that he didnt block it, but still, he was on the ground yet was unable to dodge his attack, although he knew he was up against Madara himself. Still very impressive.



> Or Madara didn't have a chance to hit back, because he was busy dodging.



And than he suddenly became not busy when he easily grabbed his sword? 



> Right sages are greatly hindered by eyesight......dude dodged the attacks but was hit and grabbed the sword to stop its movement and then complimented sasukes movements and his tomtoe...sure he could beat sasuke with mokuton ect but in cqc he was edged give sasuke his feats ..



He took that sword in such a manner because he wanted to do that, not because Sasuke is so fast. 



> Jiraiya pointed out sensors can't react as well as seeing with your eyes. And that's common sense. Madara who just smacked Naruto and Sai away, couldn't do anything to Sasuke in taijutsu? LOLOL.



Maybe it is true, but i wanna see a scan of that. Can you bring it here, please? Anime is allowed by the way. You can bring here some videos about that.


----------



## Blu-ray (Dec 18, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> He wasnt sliced in his shoulder - the only injury he got was when he grabbed his sword. And he did it, easily. Dodged all his attacks and easily, effortlessly took grabbed his sword, asking Sasuke to join him. Madara was toying with him.




* Lee a matter of mere seconds to open the 6th gate, *

There ya go.



> Yes, scrapped, but it proves nothing in our debate. And how can you tell he didnt feel them from the beginning? His sensori abilities allowed him to sense Hashirama's chakra long before he came to battlefield. I think he felt it up to that moment.



On the contrary. Pretty much counters your argument because it's based entirely on Madara somehow premeditating his meeting with Sasuke, when all he did was take advantage of a moment that presented itself. He didn't care about Sasuke before, and didn't care about him after. He was merely taking advantage of the moment to speak to him. 

What you think inconsequential, because all we know is that Madara didn't indicate that he noticed or cared until Sasuke was up in his face.



> Only to Gudoudama's movements, as i remember. And only with his Susanoo. And only to few of them.
> 
> Yep. Madara is much faster. And he was toying with Sasuke. Add to that, Madara has better speed feats than Sasuke.



No. To Juubito's actual movements when he was flying in the sky. It was how he managed to land a hit on him when even Naruto was complaining about how fast he was. And Susano'o can't react. Sasuke himself has to react before he can make Susano'o do anything.

Repeating the something Ad Nauseum isn't going to make it anymore true. Same goes for the whole toying around thing. By no means am I even implying Madara was going all out, but if Sasuke could have been trounced effortlessly, he wouldn't have been worth taken note of to begin with. The Madara in this thread is far beneath the one Sasuke went up against. That's the point.



> Maybe manga contradicts what is in anime. You wanna know what is canon? You ask Kishimoto himself. Until that moment, i think its right to use all feats, no matter - manga, or anime.
> 
> Kishi knows about anime and never said - "How can that be?!" "That anime is wrong" etc.
> 
> So i'll repeat, you better ask Kishimoto himself about what is canon - manga, or anime.



What is this inanity? The manga is the source material written by Kishimoto. The anime is merely an adaptation and Kishi himself doesn't have any role in the production of the anime, nor does he oversee it for errors. This has been common knowledge for years.

We don't debate anime related stuff in this section unless the OP makes a point of including it. Anime related stuff is excluded by default.


----------



## Zef (Dec 18, 2014)

Lel, I'm done here.
>"Never blitzed Akatsuki member"
>Databook praises his "Godlike Speed", and has an image of Tobi and  Deidara in awe.



EDIT:
> Thinks anime feats should be allowed. 
:rofl
Why? because Madara's manga feats aren't good enough?


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> I personally think anime feats can be allowed. Kishi never stated Anime isnt canon anyway. But ok. Lets see it in manga.
> 
> * Lee a matter of mere seconds to open the 6th gate, *
> 
> There is a "punching bubble", as i call it. And there is a distance between bubble and Naruto. In picture his arms are high, but we can not be sure he blocked Madara's hit. And in anime, if you look carefully, you can see that Madara hit him a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitle bit earlier before he put arms in a block stance.



The anime can do whatever they want. Several things get edited and so forth. The anime didn't even have Zabuza behead Gato. It didn't have Zaku get his arms blown off. Several examples.

His arms are crossed in the blocking position. And it doesn't matter how far he is away. It happened in one panel so you can't tell me he did it before or after the kick. The obvious conclusion is before because who puts up a block after they get sent flying?



> Maybe it is true, but i wanna see a scan of that. Can you bring it here, please? Anime is allowed by the way. You can bring here some videos about that.



He mentions how they couldn't see it but they shouldn't be reacting the way they are with sensing. Basically saying that seeing the attacks, blocking them the way they are is okay. But there's no way they could do it so well with sensing.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

> He mentions how they couldn't see it but they shouldn't be reacting the way they are with sensing.
> 
> There ya go.



No blood drops there. It might be his hair. 



> On the contrary. Pretty much counters your argument because it's based entirely on Madara somehow premeditating his meeting with Sasuke, when all he did was take advantage of a moment that presented itself. He didn't care about Sasuke before, and didn't care about him after. He was merely taking advantage of the moment to speak to him.
> 
> What you think inconsequential, because all we know is that Madara didn't indicate that he noticed or cared until Sasuke was up in his face.



We dont know if he felt his ayes from the beginning or not. He could have felt them when Sasuke used Amaterasu on him.



> No. To Juubito's actual movements when he was flying in the sky. It was how he managed to land a hit on him when even Naruto was complaining about how fast he was. And Susano'o can't react. Sasuke himself has to react before he can make Susano'o do anything.
> 
> Repeating the something Ad Nauseum isn't going to make it anymore true. Same goes for the whole toying around thing. By no means am I even implying Madara was going all out, but if Sasuke could have been trounced effortlessly, he wouldn't have been worth taken note of to begin with. The Madara in this thread is far beneath the one Sasuke went up against. That's the point.



Scan please. And that Madara easily reacted to Tobirama, who reacted to Juubidara on different occasions. 

And Sasuke would have been blitzed if Minato didnt FTG him away.

Beneath? He was without ayes.

And in that whole fight, Madara wasnt even trying to attack him and easily grabbed his sword.



> What is this inanity? The manga is the source material written by Kishimoto. The anime is merely an adaptation and Kishi himself doesn't have any role in the production of the anime, nor does he oversee it for errors. This has been common knowledge for years.
> 
> We don't debate anime related stuff in this section unless the OP makes a point of including it. Anime related stuff is excluded by default.



Ok, lets not debate anime here.

By the way, i wanna see Sasuke's speed feats. You can bring scans if you want.


----------



## Zef (Dec 18, 2014)

His hair is flying in the opposite direction.  

Either Sasuke sliced him, or Kishi/Assistants fucked up.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

> The anime can do whatever they want. Several things get edited and so forth. The anime didn't even have Zabuza behead Gato. It didn't have Zaku get his arms blown off. Several examples.
> 
> His arms are crossed in the blocking position. And it doesn't matter how far he is away. It happened in one panel so you can't tell me he did it before or after the kick. The obvious conclusion is before because who puts up a block after they get sent flying?



Well, maybe he couldnt stop his movements and was blocking the hit that already got him. Such a thing can be seen in combat sports, by the way.. Boxing, MMA, you name it.



> Lel, I'm done here.
> >"Never blitzed Akatsuki member"
> >Databook praises his "Godlike Speed", and has an image of Tobi and Deidara in awe.
> 
> ...



Sasuke's God-like speed? Maybe they were referring to Rikudou Sasuke?

Sasuke never defeat Tobi.

They are, and ok, lets use their manga feats. They are still greater than that of Sasuke.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

Zef said:


> Lel, I'm done here.
> >"Never blitzed Akatsuki member"
> >Databook praises his "Godlike Speed", and has an image of Tobi and  Deidara in awe.
> 
> ...



Where are you getting this blitzed Akatsuki member? Are you talking about Deidara? If so you know Deidara dodged them so they weren't blitzes. He didn't hit Obito. Itachi was faster than him. And that was every Akatsuki member he fought basically.


----------



## ki0 (Dec 18, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> And than he suddenly became not busy when he easily grabbed his sword?



I don't see your point here. Considering what took place right before he grabbed the sword it is not an impressive feat.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> The anime can do whatever they want. Several things get edited and so forth. The anime didn't even have Zabuza behead Gato. It didn't have Zaku get his arms blown off. Several examples.
> 
> His arms are crossed in the blocking position. And it doesn't matter how far he is away. It happened in one panel so you can't tell me he did it before or after the kick. The obvious conclusion is before because who puts up a block after they get sent flying?
> 
> ...



Ok, i agree that Naruto probably blocked his punch. Anyway, the way he hit him is still impressive.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

ki0 said:


> I don't see your point here. Considering what took place right before he grabbed the sword it is not an impressive feat.



Right before he grabbed his sword he was toying with him. he dodged him without even trying to attack him. And than he easily grabbed his sword. Thats the point.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Ok, i agree that Naruto probably blocked his punch. Anyway, the way he hit him is still impressive.



I agree. It's not a knock on his speed at all. SM Naruto has amazing reactions.


----------



## ki0 (Dec 18, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Right before he grabbed his sword he was toying with him. he dodged him without even trying to attack him. And than he easily grabbed his sword. Thats the point.



It's your interpretation that he was toying with him. Mine is that he was too busy dodging to try to attack him.

Also he had to let himself get stabbed to stop the sword.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

ki0 said:


> It's your interpretation that he was toying with him. Mine is that he was too busy dodging to try to attack him.
> 
> Also he had to let himself get stabbed to stop the sword.



And with what precise he did it. Easily dodged Sasuke's attacks, than put his arm in front of the sword and managed to push it enough for it to not go through his heart.


----------



## Zef (Dec 18, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Sasuke's God-like speed? Maybe they were referring to Rikudou Sasuke?


Third Databook came out years ago.



> Sasuke never defeat Tobi.


Blitz=/=K.O



> They are,


Why? Because you said so?


> and ok, lets use their manga feats. They are still greater than that of Sasuke.


Really? Because his bout with the Alliance isn't nearly as impressive as the anime portrays. That is of course if you're basing it on that sole performance on the Alliance.


----------



## ki0 (Dec 18, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> And with what precise he did it. Easily dodged Sasuke's attacks, than put his arm in front of the sword and managed to push it enough for it to not go through his heart.



He was turned sideways that was why it didn't go through his heart.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Jiraiya pointed out sensors can't react as well as seeing with your eyes. And that's common sense. Madara who just smacked Naruto and Sai away, couldn't do anything to Sasuke in taijutsu? LOLOL.



Jirayia talked abt the motion sensing barrier sage mode is very different from sensing kabuto,naruto and sm madara were performing the same as without eyes....ems sasuke is a tier or two above sm naruto lets not kid ourselves...sm madara reacted to an ftg surprise attack from behind he reacted the same even without his sight....narutos clones performed the same against limbo clones...kabuto performed just as well..


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

> His hair is flying in the opposite direction.
> 
> Either Sasuke sliced him, or Kishi/Assistants fucked up.



Maybe Sasuke cut off some of his hair. It wasnt a wound, since if it was a wound, it wont heal so fast. We can see few panels later that his shoulder is intact when he is holding Sasuke's sword. And that wound Sasuke left was little, smaller than that shoulder thing, but didnt heal instanteniously.



> Third Databook came out years ago.



Is it even canon right now, after 4 databook came out?



> Blitz=/=K.O



Show me scans where Sasuke K. O.s Obito, or fights Obito.



> Really? Because his bout with the Alliance isn't nearly as impressive as the anime portrays. That is of course if you're basing it on that sole performance on the Alliance.



Madara blocked Raikage's punch at point blank. And that is Edo Madara.



> He was turned sideways that was why it didn't go through his heart.



Not realy. He grabbed the sword and turned sideways. he was fast and precise enough to do so.


He mentions how they couldn't see it but they shouldn't be reacting the way they are with sensing.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Jirayia talked abt the motion sensing barrier sage mode is very different from sensing kabuto,naruto and sm madara were performing the same as without eyes....ems sasuke is a tier or two above sm naruto lets not kid ourselves...sm madara reacted to an ftg surprise attack from behind he reacted the same even without his sight....narutos clones performed the same against limbo clones...kabuto performed just as well..



No he wasn't. He was talking sensing in general. Sensing is not as good as seeing, that is common sense. And Jiraiya even said there was no way Pain could block his attacks so well just by sensing and then confirmed that he was seeing the attacks through the other paths.

EMS Sasuke is indeed a tier above SM Naruto (I'm just agreeing for the hell of it) but that doesn't make him faster nor better reflexes. Ei is in the same tier as them and he's obviously way faster and has better reflexes.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

Sasuke didn't blitz Tobi. Obito phased through the attack aka reacted and countered it.


----------



## Zef (Dec 18, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Maybe Sasuke cut off some of his hair. It wasnt a wound, since if it was a wound,* it wont heal so fast*.


He has Hashirama's cells.



> Is it even canon right now, after 4 databook came out?


3rd Databook is more accurate then the current piece of shit we have.



> Show me scans where *Sasuke K. O.s Obito, or fights Obito*.


Never said he did.



> Madara blocked Raikage's punch at point blank. And that is Edo Madara.


So Edo Madara is durable. Tell me something I don't know.



> Not realy. He grabbed the sword and turned sideways. he was fast and precise enough to do so.
> 
> 
> He mentions how they couldn't see it but they shouldn't be reacting the way they are with sensing.



Who is this aimed at?


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> No he wasn't. He was talking sensing in general. Sensing is not as good as seeing, that is common sense. And Jiraiya even said there was no way Pain could block his attacks so well just by sensing and then confirmed that he was seeing the attacks through the other paths.
> 
> EMS Sasuke is indeed a tier above SM Naruto (I'm just agreeing for the hell of it) but that doesn't make him faster nor better reflexes. Ei is in the same tier as them and he's obviously way faster and has better reflexes.



simple sensing is in noway close to sage mode threat perception...ems sasuke was able to tag juubito with his sussano...those reactions are far above sage naruto...he was able to tag sage madara while sage naruto was caught ofguard by blind base madara...ur ignoring the message here ems sasukes reactions and movement are massively improved..


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> simple sensing is in noway close to sage mode threat perception...ems sasuke was able to tag juubito with his sussano...those reactions are far above sage naruto...he was able to tag sage madara while sage naruto was caught ofguard by blind base madara...ur ignoring the message here ems sasukes reactions and movement are massively improved..



And it took a long time before Sasuke could even keep up movement wise. You remember when Sasuke wanted to act tough at the beginning of the juubito fight? He got his face slammed and was about to be beheaded if not for Naruto and Minato. As well as Naruto saying SM reflexes is better than KCM's and KCM dodged Ei's fullspeed.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

Databook hypes shit. Godlike shit isn't canon. Same way the databook says Amaterasu is as hot as the sun, we can clearly tell it isn't.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

> He has Hashirama's cells.



Thanks, Captain Obvious. Have you even thought about what i wrote above?



> 3rd Databook is more accurate then the current piece of shit we have.



With Sasuke having God-like speed, while he doesnt have any feats to suggest his speed is "God-like"? Well, if he is a God-like speedster, than there are many God-likes in Narutoverse.



> Never said he did.



Yeah, he didnt. So what is so special in that Obito thing? Why is it such an impressive feat to put him on the same speed tier as Madara?



> So Edo Madara is durable. Tell me something I don't know.



So Edo Madara was fast enough to turn on Raikage and put his hands in front of himself so the punch can hit his arms, not his face. That was an impressive speed feat.



> Who is this aimed at?



ki0


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And it took a long time before Sasuke could even keep up movement wise. You remember when Sasuke wanted to act tough at the beginning of the juubito fight? He got his face slammed and was about to be beheaded if not for Naruto and Minato. As well as Naruto saying SM reflexes is better than KCM's and KCM dodged Ei's fullspeed.



and yet he did ..juubito is a different tier then sm madara...sm naruto is strong but his reactions are more inline with ms sasuke..sm narutos reflexes might be marginally better but kcms movement speed is so superior that it makes the marginal reflex advantage moot..we have sm naruto being caught offguard by a blind base madara and we have ems sasuke drawing blood from sm madara the authors intentions are clear in his poertrayal of cqc ability and reactions..


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> and yet he did ..juubito is a different tier then sm madara...sm naruto is strong but his reactions are more inline with ms sasuke..sm narutos reflexes might be marginally better but kcms movement speed is so superior that it makes the marginal reflex advantage moot..we have sm naruto being caught offguard by a blind base madara and we have ems sasuke drawing blood from sm madara the authors intentions are clear in his poertrayal of cqc ability and reactions..



And he swung how many times before he tagged Madara? And how much better would Madara react with Sharingan? Exactly. With sharingan, Madara would stomp Sasuke's shit.


----------



## Bonly (Dec 18, 2014)

Madara gives Sasuke a beat down sooner or later, the real question should be how long does Sasuke live


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> And he swung how many times before he tagged Madara? And how much better would Madara react with Sharingan? Exactly. With sharingan, Madara would stomp Sasuke's shit.



What da heck...he swung madara retreated he was getting pushed eventually was tagged and used his arm to deflect a vital blow..we saw edo madara pushed by v1 raikage he could only block the punches..sm madara was trolling tobiramas ftg surprise backstabs ...sm madara is far above ems madara in reactions and physical attributes...madara while attacked from behind ignoring dojutsu precog performed the same against tobirama while he had him in sight...


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> What da heck...we saw edo madara barely reacting to v1 raikage he could only block the punches..sm madara was trolling tobiramas ftg surprise backstabs ...sm madara is far above ems madara in reactions and physical attributes...madara while attacked from behind ignoring dojutsu precog performed the same against tobirama while he had him in sight...



Edo Madara is significantly weaker than living version. 

Point blank- Seeing is better than sensing. Sure SM sensing is better than average sensing but sharingan is also better than normal eyes. 

Madara sensed Tobirama behind him and dodged, are you saying he couldn't perform better if Tobirama attacked from the front? Because that's fucking retarded. You do know Madara and Tobirama fought several times in life and Madara always came out alive. Hashirama was the only person who could beat him.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2014)

> What da heck...he swung madara retreated he was getting pushed eventually was tagged and used his arm to deflect a vital blow..we saw edo madara pushed by v1 raikage he could only block the punches..sm madara was trolling tobiramas ftg surprise backstabs ...sm madara is far above ems madara in reactions and physical attributes...madara while attacked from behind ignoring dojutsu precog performed the same against tobirama while he had him in sight...



That was V2 Ei. But Madara blocked his point blank pucnh. Thats why Tsuchikage lightened him so he can be even faster than that to "crush his defence".

Madara stomps.


----------



## Kyu (Dec 18, 2014)

> Edo Madara is significantly weaker than living version.



Kabuto modified Edo Madara to be stronger than his living incarnation.

He whipped out High-level Mokuton, Meteors, PS, and other Rinnegan path jutsu.

The Senju bros were the edo tensei not resurrected at their full power. Uncertain on Minato & Hiruzen's reanimated status at the time.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Kabuto modified Edo Madara to be stronger than his living incarnation.
> 
> He whipped out High-level Mokuton, Meteors, PS, and other Rinnegan path jutsu.
> 
> The Senju bros were the edo tensei not resurrected at their full power. Uncertain on Minato & Hiruzen's reanimated status at the time.



Except that when Madara was rinne tensei'd Hashirama directly said he was gaining his living strength back as in edo Madara was weaker.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Edo Madara is significantly weaker than living version.
> 
> Point blank- Seeing is better than sensing. Sure SM sensing is better than average sensing but sharingan is also better than normal eyes.
> 
> Madara sensed Tobirama behind him and dodged, are you saying he couldn't perform better if Tobirama attacked from the front? Because that's fucking retarded. You do know Madara and Tobirama fought several times in life and Madara always came out alive. Hashirama was the only person who could beat him.



I am saying he will perform about the same...did u see any substantial improvement from sm madara through his use of eye sight? kabuto demonstrated that he can fight the same with or without eye sight...naruto fought the same against limbo and the real madara..ur trying to show some drastic difference between sages performances with and without eyesight while there isnt any drastic difference..and edo madara was beyond his prime..


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Except that when Madara was rinne tensei'd Hashirama directly said he was gaining his living strength back as in edo Madara was weaker.



sm hashirama easily beats living ems madara without kyuubi...edo madara stalemated sm hashi..


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> I am saying he will perform about the same...did u see any substantial improvement from sm madara through his use of eye sight? kabuto demonstrated that he can fight the same with or without eye sight...naruto fought the same against limbo and the real madara..ur trying to show some drastic difference between sages performances with and without eyesight while there isnt any drastic difference..and edo madara was beyond his prime..



I'll make this simple as can be.

1. Madara with sharingan has better reactions than blind SM Madara. 
2. SM users without eyesight has worse reactions then ones with eyesight simply because seeing over sensing as Jiraiya pointed out.
3. Hashirama confirmed living Madara>edo Madara. 

I'm not saying all this complicated shit you're making it out to be. Simply put a Madara who can see will react better than a Madara who can't.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> sm hashirama easily beats living ems madara without kyuubi...edo madara stalemated sm hashi..



Edo Madara lost to Edo Hashirama. Get that right. Hashirama had him trapped in gates and Madara couldn't move. And Hashirama and Tobirama said they weren't at full strength as edo's because edo's are weaker than living incarnations.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I'll make this simple as can be.
> 
> 1. Madara with sharingan has better reactions than blind SM Madara.
> 2. SM users without eyesight has worse reactions then ones with eyesight simply because seeing over sensing as Jiraiya pointed out.
> ...



sage perception and mankegyo precog are portrayed to be on the same level..only sm covers all your blindspots...the more advanced the user the further they take it..can sight help sure but not even close to the level you are portraying..sage perception can compensate for sight...

If living ems madara was indeed stronger then he could have stalemated sm hashi at vote...he was beyond his prime as an edo..he stalemated sm hashi which living madara could not...


----------



## Zef (Dec 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Databook hypes shit. Godlike shit isn't canon. Same way the databook says Amaterasu is as hot as the sun, we can clearly tell it isn't.




The point is that the Databook is more canon then the anime witch StarWanderer is using.

I know the DB's are bullshit.But at least it's canon bullshit. Anime isn't.



StarWanderer said:


> Thanks, Captain Obvious. Have you even thought about what i wrote above?


You imbecile. You asked if the Godlike speed referred to Rikudou Sasuke; which isn't possible since Rikudou Sasuke didn't exist at the time the 3rd Databook came out.

Don't try to act like a smartass when you don't even know what the fuck your talking about.




> With Sasuke having God-like speed, while he doesnt have any feats to suggest his speed is "God-like"?


He blitzed a Godlike being:




> Well, if he is a God-like speedster, than there are many God-likes in Narutoverse.


No.



> Yeah, he didnt. So what is so special in that Obito thing? Why is it such an impressive feat to put him on the same speed tier as Madara?


What do you mean what's the point?

Follow the debate.

I said:


You responded with:


Also. You have yet to show this top tier speed Madara has. Where are the scans?
Here's some of Sasuke:

*Spoiler*: __ 











> So Edo Madara was fast enough to turn on Raikage and put his hands in front of himself so the punch can hit his arms, not his face. That was an impressive speed feat.





Kyu said:


> *Kabuto modified Edo Madara to be stronger than his living incarnation.*


GG


----------



## Bkprince33 (Dec 18, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> sage perception and mankegyo precog are portrayed to be on the same level..only sm covers all your blindspots...the more advanced the user the further they take it..can sight help sure but not even close to the level you are portraying..sage perception can compensate for sight...
> 
> If living ems madara was indeed stronger then he could have stalemated sm hashi at vote...he was beyond his prime as an edo..he stalemated sm hashi which living madara could not...



Sm sensing along with eye sight is portayed to be about equal to ms precog.


Sage perception used alongside regular sight > blind sage perception.


Edo hashirama could not use the buhddah, that's why edo madara could stalemate him


----------



## Blu-ray (Dec 18, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> No blood drops there. It might be his hair.



Except we can clearly see his hair being blown to his left. The wound was on his right shoulder.



> We dont know if he felt his ayes from the beginning or not. He could have felt them when Sasuke used Amaterasu on him.



There is such a thing as reasonable doubt. That falls out of the boundary for it. Madara gave no indication of taking note of Sasuke's eyes prior to him being up close and personal.



> Scan please.



block out chakra
block out chakra

There ya go.



> And that Madara easily reacted to Tobirama, who reacted to Juubidara on different occasions.



I think you mean Juubito, and Tobirama got blizted by the mindless version. Never reacted to Obito's movements after that. He reacted to techniques like the Gudodama bomb at most. Even his collaborated blitz with Naruto was only because Obito believed he could phase, which the Juubi Jinchuriki cannot do, and Tobirama admitted it would not work a second time.



> And Sasuke would have been blitzed if Minato didnt FTG him away.



Naruto was also blitzed in that instant. Irrelevant here since Madara isn't close to that speed, and Sasuke reacted to the in control, faster Obito afterwards anyway.



> Beneath? He was without ayes.



And had Hashirama's SM and cells as a replacement. As far as CQC goes, this one is superior to the living 3 tomoe variant thanks to physical strength, speed, and reactions thanks to Hashi cells and SM, and Hashi's SM sensing cancels out his loss of precog. He has more things than he lost.



> And in that whole fight, Madara wasnt even trying to attack him and easily grabbed his sword.



He wasn't on the offensive because he was on the defensive. I'm sure I said that.



> Ok, lets not debate anime here.
> 
> By the way, i wanna see Sasuke's speed feats. You can bring scans if you want.



Don't see a need to. Reacting to someone at least a tier above Madara in speed means he has nothing to worry about in this matchup speed wise.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

What did Sasuke even do in the juubito fight? Juubito blitz'd him, then Minato and Tobirama did a combo so FRS/Enton combo landed. Then Tobirama and Naruto did a combo to hit him. Then Obito did the 4 bijuudama's and everyone got teleported out. And then that's basically it. In the scan whoever's above me posted, Sasuke swung and Juubito was a mile away. He clearly didn't keep up. Unless you call Juubito stopping to block the hit something despite Obito stating that they were out of time aka time to end this shit. Sasuke really didn't do shit there.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 18, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> sage perception and mankegyo precog are portrayed to be on the same level..only sm covers all your blindspots...the more advanced the user the further they take it..can sight help sure but not even close to the level you are portraying..sage perception can compensate for sight...
> 
> If living ems madara was indeed stronger then he could have stalemated sm hashi at vote...he was beyond his prime as an edo..he stalemated sm hashi which living madara could not...



.

SM hashirama that you're talking about was also an edo aka weaker. They were both weaker than their living counterparts. And in their edo forms, Hashi beat Madara it wasn't a stalemate.



Zef said:


> I know the DB's are bullshit.But at least it's canon bullshit. Anime isn't.



Basing and argument on the DB is shit. You use the DB to back up a point, not as a point.



> He blitzed a Godlike being:



What does that have to do with this match? This is pre rikudou Sasuke so that feat is meaningless.

No.


What do you mean what's the point?



> Also. You have yet to show this top tier speed Madara has. Where are the scans?



Landed a hit on SM Naruto, dodged FTG Tobirama, casually dodging EMS Sasuke.



> Here's some of Sasuke:



*Spoiler*: __ 





And? You do know that Naruto ain't anywhere near kage level.


Deidara completely dodge it, Obito just kamui'd through it. No speed feat there. Blitz means you hit your opponent so fast they can't do anything. Both of them dodged/countered Sasuke.




Madara did the same in edo version. His living version is stronger. 



> GG



Here and even takl's translation


takL said:


> Hash in his mind: Madara has regained his former might
> Hash in his mind: God...What he aims forthe next are_____
> Mob: Ugh!



Aka Madara was weaker as an edo confirmed by Hashirama who lived and fought Madara. Not Kabuto who heard shit. GG.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2014)

> Except we can clearly see his hair being blown to his left. The wound was on his right shoulder.



And? Maybe Sasuke cut his hair before that and it was on his shoulder. Still waiting for you to comment why there are no blood drops there. And why that "wound" regenerated faster than the one Sasuke left when Madara grabbed his sword.



> There is such a thing as reasonable doubt. That falls out of the boundary for it. Madara gave no indication of taking note of Sasuke's eyes prior to him being up close and personal.



But Madara's speed feats are much better. Raikage was blitzing Sasuke around, while Madara duplicated Minato's feat of avoiding Raikage's punch in a point blank. Madaras clones could react to Raikage. And he dodged the sand that reacted to Raikage once. Sasuke, at the same time, had problems with Raikage.

And watch how easily he dodged him and later grabbed his sword. 



> _The strongest of them all..._
> _The strongest of them all..._
> 
> There ya go.



Yeah, and he got him only once, but there Juubito blocked his punch. Madara easily beat Tobirama, who reacted to Juubito on many occasions. And keep in mind Madara was blind when Sasuke attacked him.

Plus, if not for Minato, Juubito would have blitzed both Naruto and Sasuke.



> I think you mean Juubito, and Tobirama got blizted by the mindless version. Never reacted to Obito's movements after that. He reacted to techniques like the Gudodama bomb at most. Even his collaborated blitz with Naruto was only because Obito believed he could phase, which the Juubi Jinchuriki cannot do, and Tobirama admitted it would not work a second time.



Yeah, sorry. But nevertheless, Tobirama put FTG formula and several explosive tags on Juubito, who was as fast as he was later. Plus, he never tried to dodge it since he was using his kamikaze-style.



> Naruto was also blitzed in that instant. Irrelevant here since Madara isn't close to that speed, and Sasuke reacted to the in control, faster Obito afterwards anyway.



You have yet to prove Obito became *faster*.

Sasuke wasnt able to make a hit on Juubito, who later beat both him and Naruto. And the fact they would have been blitzed if not for Minato is *still a fact*.



> And had Hashirama's SM and cells as a replacement. As far as CQC goes, this one is superior to the living 3 tomoe variant thanks to physical strength, speed, and reactions thanks to Hashi cells and SM, and Hashi's SM sensing cancels out his loss of precog. He has more things than he lost.



Hashirama's cells have nothing to do with his speed. They only gave him ability to use Mokuton and regeneration. Thats all.

Ayes gave him ability to see enemies movements in slow-mo before they were made, he didnt have such an ability when he was without his ayes.



> He wasn't on the offensive because he was on the defensive. I'm sure I said that.



And when Madara tried to grab his sword, he did it so easily. So easily and precisely. Thats the point. If he wanted to do that in the beginning of their fight, he would have done it.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2014)

> You imbecile. You asked if the Godlike speed referred to Rikudou Sasuke; which isn't possible since Rikudou Sasuke didn't exist at the time the 3rd Databook came out.
> 
> Don't try to act like a smartass when you don't even know what the fuck your talking about.



Ahahaha, you are one of the kind, lol. I hope you'll read all of that later, because you are acting as an embodiment of stupidity.

But nevertheless, that statement was a hyperbole, since his feats are not "God-like". He was blitzed by Raikage, whom EDO Madara dodged at point blank. Sai and Yamato were able to react to him when he "blitzed" base Naruto, who wasnt even in his prime back there.  And he never blitzed anyone from the Akatsuki. Madara has speed and reflexes feats tier above that pre-rikudou Sasuke.



> He blitzed a Godlike being:
> Spoiler:



And you call me an imbecile? This thread is *not* about Rikudou Sasuke, lol. But i agree Rikudou Sasuke has God-like speed.



> No.



Yes.



> What do you mean what's the point?
> 
> Follow the debate.
> 
> ...



I wont even reply to most of your moronic words there, but lol, those feats doesnt even come close to what Madara was capable of.

Deidara was impressed, but he dodged Sasuke, just like Obito. Raikage was blitzing him around in that fight. And he could blitz *base Naruto*. Plus, Yamato and Sai were able to react to him there. Am i need to remind you what alive, aye-less Madara did to Sai?



> Originally Posted by Kyu View Post
> Kabuto modified Edo Madara to be stronger than his living incarnation.
> GG



You have yet to prove his physical traits were modified. because weakened Hashirama's Edo vertion, with clones around the battlefield that also weakened him, fought on equal terms with Edo "Modified" Madara and even managed to immobilise him. Kabuto most likely modified his Hashirama's cells. Thats all. And even Hashirama confirmed "he regained his true power".

GG, for you.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Dec 19, 2014)

Is this thread still going on? Madara beats the dog shyt out of sasuke for obvious reasons.


Sasuke isn't even as skilled as itachi in cqc and kenjutsu, there's no way in hell he's beating madara equipped with the gunbai.


----------



## Blu-ray (Dec 19, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> And? Maybe Sasuke cut his hair before that and it was on his shoulder. Still waiting for you to comment why there are no blood drops there. And why that "wound" regenerated faster than the one Sasuke left when Madara grabbed his sword.



Did you see Sasuke cut Madara's hair, or do you see the gash in his shoulder? Time frame can't be discerned from panels, and we never saw a clear panel of his shoulder after that to begin with.



> But Madara's speed feats are much better. Raikage was blitzing Sasuke around, while Madara duplicated Minato's feat of avoiding Raikage's punch in a point blank. Madaras clones could react to Raikage. And he dodged the sand that reacted to Raikage once. Sasuke, at the same time, had problems with Raikage.



This is War Arc Sasuke, not Kage Summit Sasuke. The one in this thread was reacting to Juubito, someone beyond even BM Naruto in speed let alone Raikage. His new eyes boosted his ability to read movements, that and months of time to improve.



> And watch how easily he dodged him and later grabbed his sword.



Man, ad nauseam must be your middle name.



> Yeah, and he got him only once, but there Juubito blocked his punch. Madara easily beat Tobirama, who reacted to Juubito on many occasions. And keep in mind Madara was blind when Sasuke attacked him.



Once? So what exactly did he do when he shoved his sword through Obito's midsection later?

Reacting to someone means you can follow their speed. That person's ability to react to something else is irrelevant.



> Plus, if not for Minato, Juubito would have blitzed both Naruto and Sasuke.



They reacted to the in control Obito and could tag him later on. Emphasis was placed on them gradually adjusting to his movements through Naruto's words and their ability to eventually hit him.



> Yeah, sorry. But nevertheless, Tobirama put FTG formula and several explosive tags on Juubito, who was as fast as he was later. Plus, he never tried to dodge it since he was using his kamikaze-style.



Against the mindless Obito. He couldn't dodge the initial blitz. The whole point was to show how fast Juubito was. It's absurd to insinuate they could do shit when the author's intent was clearly that they couldn't react. 



> You have yet to prove Obito became *faster*.



That's like asking for proof BM Naruto is faster than KCM Naruto. Or asking for proof the sky is blue. All of his abilities improved when he gained control. That was more than apparent when he took of Minato's arm, a dude who could hold his own reaction wise prior.



> Sasuke wasnt able to make a hit on Juubito, who later beat both him and Naruto. And the fact they would have been blitzed if not for Minato is *still a fact*.



It is also a fact that they improved mid battle and could perfectly react to a more powerful Obito.



> Hashirama's cells have nothing to do with his speed. They only gave him ability to use Mokuton and regeneration. Thats all.



I beg to differ, but it's irrelevant anyway. SM already provides a massive boost, beyond anything a Three tomoe living Madara has access to CQC wise.



> Ayes gave him ability to see enemies movements in slow-mo before they were made, he didnt have such an ability when he was without his ayes.



He had Hashirama's SM, thus SM sensing. Pretty sure I said this. It gives an even better perceptual boost than a three tomoe Sharingan.



> And when Madara tried to grab his sword, he did it so easily. So easily and precisely. Thats the point. If he wanted to do that in the beginning of their fight, he would have done it.



Letting himself get impaled to divert the blade and not die was part of the whole "on the defensive" thing. This entire speed and reaction argument is pointless though. Speed and reaction isn't an issue here since they can both react perfectly to people faster than they are. Should be arguing what the fuck is Sasuke gonna do against that Gunbai.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 19, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> Did you see Sasuke cut Madara's hair, or do you see the gash in his shoulder? Time frame can't be discerned from panels, and we never saw a clear panel of his shoulder after that to begin with.



Sasuke never cut his shoulder. It would've been highlighted if he had. We would've seen it heal and everything.



> This is War Arc Sasuke, not Kage Summit Sasuke. The one in this thread was reacting to Juubito, someone beyond even BM Naruto in speed let alone Raikage. His new eyes boosted his ability to read movements, that and months of time to improve.



Sasuke got blitz'd by Juubito and could never land a hit on him. Notice how far away Obito was when Sasuke swung his susanoo sword. By the time Sasuke sword got to where Obito was, he had already crossed  a huge distance. He stopped and blocked their attack as he said he was out of time.



> Once? So what exactly did he do when he shoved his sword through Obito's midsection later?
> 
> Reacting to someone means you can follow their speed. That person's ability to react to something else is irrelevant.



You mean Naruto. Wasn't much to do with Sasuke there.



> They reacted to the in control Obito and could tag him later on. Emphasis was placed on them gradually adjusting to his movements through Naruto's words and their ability to eventually hit him.



Naruto could. Tobirama could. Sasuke couldn't and never did.



> Against the mindless Obito. He couldn't dodge the initial blitz. The whole point was to show how fast Juubito was. It's absurd to insinuate they could do shit when the author's intent was clearly that they couldn't react.



Naruto did react, he saved both of them.



> It is also a fact that they improved mid battle and could perfectly react to a more powerful Obito.



No, Sasuke could never perfectly react.



> I beg to differ, but it's irrelevant anyway. SM already provides a massive boost, beyond anything a Three tomoe living Madara has access to CQC wise.



Except Hashirama said Madara was full strength after gaining SM and missing eyes. Meaning he was just as strong.



> He had Hashirama's SM, thus SM sensing. Pretty sure I said this. It gives an even better perceptual boost than a three tomoe Sharingan.



Not all SM are the same. He hit both Naruto and Sai and got to Hashirama without SM. Nothing says SM gave him sensing.



> Letting himself get impaled to divert the blade and not die was part of the whole "on the defensive" thing. This entire speed and reaction argument is pointless though. Speed and reaction isn't an issue here since they can both react perfectly to people faster than they are. Should be arguing what the fuck is Sasuke gonna do against that Gunbai.



Sasuke ain't touching Madara with or without gunbai.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2014)

> Did you see Sasuke cut Madara's hair, or do you see the gash in his shoulder? Time frame can't be discerned from panels, and we never saw a clear panel of his shoulder after that to begin with.



Did you see any blood drops from that "wound"? And if it was a wound, why it regenerated faster than a much smaller wound that Sasuke left?

We saw that, when he grabbed his sword. And we saw that it took him several panels + katon technique time to regenerate that little wound.



> This is War Arc Sasuke, not Kage Summit Sasuke. The one in this thread was reacting to Juubito, someone beyond even BM Naruto in speed let alone Raikage. His new eyes boosted his ability to read movements, that and months of time to improve.



*Sasuke got blitz'd by Juubito and could never land a hit on him. Notice how far away Obito was when Sasuke swung his susanoo sword. By the time Sasuke sword got to where Obito was, he had already crossed a huge distance. He stopped and blocked their attack as he said he was out of time.* (c) IchLiebe.



> Once? So what exactly did he do when he shoved his sword through Obito's midsection later?
> 
> Reacting to someone means you can follow their speed. That person's ability to react to something else is irrelevant.



It was more Naruto than Sasuke. And Juubito wasnt trying to dodge it at all. He thought his sword and shield are enough. But it wasnt. he was shocked about that and got sliced.



> They reacted to the in control Obito and could tag him later on. Emphasis was placed on them gradually adjusting to his movements through Naruto's words and their ability to eventually hit him.



They couldnt. He was dodging their attacks no problem. And the fact he would have blitzed them if not for Minato is a fact realy.



> It is also a fact that they improved mid battle and could perfectly react to a more powerful Obito.



Juubito had the same chakra. he was as powerful as before, but he could use his full offensive potential. Thats it. In terms of speed, it was the same Juubito that Tobirama taged.

And they didnt react to him. he dodged their attacks without any problem. They only time they hit him was when he didnt try to dodge their attacks at all.



> That's like asking for proof BM Naruto is faster than KCM Naruto. Or asking for proof the sky is blue. All of his abilities improved when he gained control. That was more than apparent when he took of Minato's arm, a dude who could hold his own reaction wise prior.



From what we saw, he had control, than he lost it, than he regained that control and could use his offensive in better ways. But he had the same chakra all the time. In terms of speed, Juubito was the same as before.

And BM Minato's reaction is worse than that of Tobirama. The fact Juubito took his arm proves nothing other than the fact Tobirama had better reflexes and reaction speed than BM Minato.



> Against the mindless Obito. He couldn't dodge the initial blitz. The whole point was to show how fast Juubito was. It's absurd to insinuate they could do shit when the author's intent was clearly that they couldn't react.



Tobirama wasnt trying to dodge it, since he wanted to use kamikaze style. And that Juubito was as fast as when he took Minato's arm. By the way, Tobirama did something, BM Minato did nothing.



> I beg to differ, but it's irrelevant anyway. SM already provides a massive boost, beyond anything a Three tomoe living Madara has access to CQC wise.



Are you sure about that? EMS precognition is much better. And Madara was blind.



> He had Hashirama's SM, thus SM sensing. Pretty sure I said this. It gives an even better perceptual boost than a three tomoe Sharingan.



Wrong. And he still was blind.



> Letting himself get impaled to divert the blade and not die was part of the whole "on the defensive" thing. This entire speed and reaction argument is pointless though. Speed and reaction isn't an issue here since they can both react perfectly to people faster than they are. Should be arguing what the fuck is Sasuke gonna do against that Gunbai.



My point is that he did it so easily. If he wanted to do the same thing from the beginning, he could have done it no problem.

And Sasuke wasnt realy reacting to Juubito, who was dodging anything Sasuke had.

Also, you have yet to prove EMS made his body faster, or is much above MS in terms of precognition. Because pre-rikudou Sasuke's speed feats are inferior to Madara's speed feats.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I'll make this simple as can be.
> 
> 1. Madara with sharingan has better reactions than blind SM Madara.
> 2. SM users without eyesight has worse reactions then ones with eyesight simply because seeing over sensing as Jiraiya pointed out.
> ...



Madara with rinnegan (ems precog could barely block vs a) sm madara was trolling ftg surprise attacks from behind by tobirama tobiramas reactions outstrip raikages..sm madara is above ems madara in cqc...not only are his reactions better his physical speed is greatly enhanced and he gains 360 threat perception..prove that sages performed significantly worse without eyesight and im waiting kabuto proves u wrong so does naruto against limbo...sm madaras perofrmance against tobirama was the same with him in line of sight and without...and hashirama was also immobilized and couldnt move due to the blackrods..it was a stalemate..


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

> Madara with rinnegan (ems precog could barely block vs a) sm madara was trolling ftg surprise attacks from behind by tobirama tobiramas reactions outstrip raikages..sm madara is above ems madara in cqc...not only are his reactions better his physical speed is greatly enhanced and he gains 360 threat perception..prove that sages performed significantly worse without eyesight and im waiting kabuto proves u wrong so does naruto against limbo...sm madaras perofrmance against tobirama was the same with him in line of sight and without...and hashirama was also immobilized and couldnt move due to the blackrods..it was a stalemate..



With only 1 Rinnegan, i might add.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 20, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Madara with rinnegan (ems precog could barely block vs a) sm madara was trolling ftg surprise attacks from behind by tobirama tobiramas reactions outstrip raikages



You mean Madara with an eye dodged Tobirama. 



> ..sm madara is above ems madara in cqc...not only are his reactions better his physical speed is greatly enhanced and he gains 360 threat perception..



Nope. You can't say that about his SM. We don't know how Hashirama's SM works. All three SM's have shown to have differences. 



> prove that sages performed significantly worse without eyesight and im waiting kabuto proves u wrong so does naruto against limbo



Kabuto could see. And Naruto who was powered by SoT6P chakra? Come on. I'm not saying they can't perform without eyesight, they can. However they would react better with eyesight as Jiraiya stated, you can't react as well with sensing as you can with eyesight.



> ...sm madaras perofrmance against tobirama was the same with him in line of sight and without...and hashirama was also immobilized and couldnt move due to the blackrods..it was a stalemate..



Madara's performance was too small to tell anything. Last we saw Tobirama teleported above his head and the next time we see them Tobirama's on the ground. Pretty obvious Madara had to resort to Rinne tensei. Hashirama could still use jutsu, he had black rods in him and still trapped Madara with his gates. As in Hashirama could still fight, Madara couldn't.


----------



## Arles Celes (Dec 20, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> sm hashirama easily beats living ems madara without kyuubi...edo madara stalemated sm hashi..



If that is the case why did the Hashi VS Madara fight at VoTE end up with both of them battered and tired with Hashi having to use a bunshin feint to win instead of easily beating him up with all the stuff he still got left(SM, Shinsenju, Mokujin, Mokuryu)?

I blame Kishi's laziness for not explaining how did the fight did go after Madara lost Kurama as the conclusion seemed to keep portraying them as quite close matched instead of Madara being completely overwhelmed after losing Kurama.



sabre320 said:


> sage perception and mankegyo precog are portrayed to be on the same level..only sm covers all your blindspots...the more advanced the user the further they take it..can sight help sure but not even close to the level you are portraying..sage perception can compensate for sight...
> 
> If living ems madara was indeed stronger then he could have stalemated sm hashi at vote...he was beyond his prime as an edo..he stalemated sm hashi which living madara could not...



Yeah, that is quite likely but Madara seemed to be a good sensor even before getting SM. Nagato and Tobirama also got great sensing skills. In a fight such level of sensing might be enough. Sensing stuff from faaaar away is a great bonus when one wants to be a tracker too like Karin.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> You mean Madara with an eye dodged Tobirama.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Jesus freaking christ ur being unnecessarily stubborn tobirama used a blind side ftg strike from behind madaras eyes played no part here..!!!!!!!!!!!! you need to be in the line of sight of dojutsu to get the benefits of precog!!
Link removed
Link removed
there was no significant difference between his cqc performance with or without sight..

Are u freaking kiddin me senjutsu enhances all physical attributes ur ignoring canon now..

Kabuto kept his eyes sealed...ur ignoring canon now...

iv provided you with feats that there is no meaningfull difference between the performances of sages with or without eye sight provide ur proof to back ur confident assertions..

sage madara while ignoring his dojutsu precog was able to react to a ftg sneak attack from behind that shits on any feats from edo madara who could not dodge raikages v1 punch..

sasuke forced the same sm madara to block a vital blow with his arm....ems sasuke outmatches ems madara in cqc..

Now ur conveniently ignoring feats to suit ur argument we got feats during their scuffle that proved that edo madara was superior to sm hashirama in cqc as hashirama was tagged multiple times with the black rods..while edo madara was not tagged..and hashirama had to use mokuton to compete..
Link removed
it was a stale mate in hashiramas own words..
Link removed


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> With only 1 Rinnegan, i might add.



and kakashi has 1 sharingan his precog is still the same....are u trying to say another rinnegan will double his reactions...?


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> If that is the case why did the Hashi VS Madara fight at VoTE end up with both of them battered and tired with Hashi having to use a bunshin feint to win instead of easily beating him up with all the stuff he still got left(SM, Shinsenju, Mokujin, Mokuryu)?
> 
> I blame Kishi's laziness for not explaining how did the fight did go after Madara lost Kurama as the conclusion seemed to keep portraying them as quite close matched instead of Madara being completely overwhelmed after losing Kurama.
> 
> ...



Fact of the matter is that the kyuubi was the only reason madara even survived shinsensenjus assault without kurama ps would be pounded into dust by the full assault of the fist barrage...madara thought he needed the strongest bijuu to compete with hashirama and he was right...

Its pretty clear too many examples given to show that perfect sages can perform brilliantly without sight...the difference isnt significant at all


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

> and kakashi has 1 sharingan his precog is still the same....are u trying to say another rinnegan will double his reactions...?



Wow, you finally replied to me. Cool.

Sharingans can utilise their full potential only in pair. Kakashi without sharingan is weaker than Kakashi with 1 sharingan. And Kakashi with 2 sharingans will be more powerfull than Kakashi with only 1 sharingan. Precognition abilities would have been better.


----------



## Arles Celes (Dec 20, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Fact of the matter is that the kyuubi was the only reason madara even survived shinsensenjus assault without kurama ps would be pounded into dust by the full assault of the fist barrage...madara thought he needed the strongest bijuu to compete with hashirama and he was right...
> 
> Its pretty clear too many examples given to show that perfect sages can perform brilliantly without sight...the difference isnt significant at all



Yeah, Hashi clearly got a superior firepower if Madara lacks Kurama.

But couldn't Madara just fly away with PS if Hashi unleashed such assault on him normally? PS can fly rather fast and run too. If all came down to raw power then Ei would be rather above base Minato which isn't the case. Madara could simply be more careful and tactical rather than challenging Hashi to a contest of raw firepower.

Shinseju itself was left still capable of moving even if it lost most arms as the body wasn't particularly damaged. And it could grab Kurama as if the bijuu was a mouse. Madara though was able somehow to deal with both that and the other 2 constructs that Hashi got left despite losing Kurama. With Hashi himself still in SM.

And regarding perfect sages I think the best thing is not exactly sensing but rather enhanced perception which lets evade even incredibly fast attacks(like Sasuke's arrow) or keep up with vastly faster opponents(BSM Naruto with Juubito). It clearly is the Senju variant of EMS perception but not limited to line of sight. Quite useful indeed.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Wow, you finally replied to me. Cool.
> 
> Sharingans can utilise their full potential only in pair. Kakashi without sharingan is weaker than Kakashi with 1 sharingan. And Kakashi with 2 sharingans will be more powerfull than Kakashi with only 1 sharingan. Precognition abilities would have been better.



In techniques sure for example sussano usage,amaterasu kamui ect but precog and reactions are never mentioned in that context...kakashi is capable of holding his own against itachi while possesing one sharingan..itachi after losing one eye to izanami was performing up to par just the same..


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> Yeah, Hashi clearly got a superior firepower if Madara lacks Kurama.
> 
> But couldn't Madara just fly away with PS if Hashi unleashed such assault on him normally? PS can fly rather fast and run too. If all came down to raw power then Ei would be rather above base Minato which isn't the case. Madara could simply be more careful and tactical rather than challenging Hashi to a contest of raw firepower.
> 
> ...



Flight is limited to those that possess rikudos chakra otherwise madara would have definitely utilised it versus hashirama its too overwhelming an advantage to ignore otherwise he could have literally flown out of range and nuked hahirama to kingdom come with the kyuubisussano..though even without flight why in gods name did madara rush head on towards the buudha when he could have kept his distance and fired off his nukes..madara is an idiot..

and shinsensenju survived but was too damaged to continue all it could do was immobilize kurama..and by that time hashirama was exhausted and could not maintain the mokuton constructs any longer..hence the cqc


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> In techniques sure for example sussano usage,amaterasu kamui ect but precog and reactions are never mentioned in that context...kakashi is capable of holding his own against itachi while possesing one sharingan..itachi after losing one eye to izanami was performing up to par just the same..



Itachi after Izanami wasnt performing at all. Their next "fight" was an illusion created by Izanami. And all of sharingans abilities are affected by their numbers. 

And Itachi never was serious with Kakashi.


----------



## sabre320 (Dec 20, 2014)

StarWanderer said:


> Itachi after Izanami wasnt performing at all. Their next "fight" was an illusion created by Izanami. And all of sharingans abilities are affected by their numbers.
> 
> And Itachi never was serious with Kakashi.



.......the precog advantage is the same ....the eye is reading the movement and predicting the same as two eyes would....but ok i know u will disagree ....


----------



## RedChidori (Dec 20, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> To be honest unless we consider Madara's anime feats canon it is hard to say how good he is at taijutsu.
> 
> Though given the guys that he owned at taijutsu were nameless fodders I do not see why Sasuke couldn't do the same.
> 
> ...



This honestly .


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 20, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> .......the precog advantage is the same ....the eye is reading the movement and predicting the same as two eyes would....but ok i know u will disagree ....



1 ayes is reading the movements. And here you have 2 ayes that can read the movements. But whatever.


----------

