# Sage Kabuto vs. Sage Jiraiya & Sage Naruto



## Nikushimi (Nov 15, 2013)

Because apparently another point needs to be made. 

*Location:* Kabuto's Cave
*Distance:* 5m
*Knowledge:* Full
*Mindset:* In-character
*Conditions/Restrictions:*
-Edo Tensei is restricted.
-Naruto and Jiraiya have to share their toad summoning contract. Fukasaku and Shima are obviously fused to Jiraiya already.

*Scenario 1:* Sage Kabuto vs. Sage Jiraiya
*Scenario 2:* Sage Kabuto vs. Sage Naruto
*Scenario 3:* Sage Kabuto vs. Sage Jiraiya + Sage Naruto

So I heard Jiraiya and Naruto have a better Sage Mode than Kabuto. Thought I'd test that theory.


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## ueharakk (Nov 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> So I heard Jiraiya and Naruto have a better Sage Mode than Kabuto. Thought I'd test that theory.



how does this thread test whether Kabuto's SM is better than Naruto's or Jiraiya's?


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## Nikushimi (Nov 15, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> how does this thread test whether Kabuto's SM is better than Naruto's or Jiraiya's?



By showing who beats who, obviously.


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## ueharakk (Nov 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> By showing who beats who, obviously.



how does that show who's SM is better?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 15, 2013)

I'd say Kabuto is guaranteed to win 1st and 2nd scenarios.

Not sure about the 3rd one, I have to think about it. Trying to figure out what Jiraiya & Naruto can do against white rage and muki tensei. White rage opener might allow Kabuto to swiftly take out one of them right off the bat. If he can eleminate one, then he can eleminate the other.


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## Chad (Nov 15, 2013)

Niku and his bait threads.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 15, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> how does that show who's SM is better?



Answer the match-up. 



Astral said:


> Niku and his bait threads.



It's not baiting; it's making a point. 

I am doing this for the good of everyone. You should all thank me. :ignoramus


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## ueharakk (Nov 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Answer the match-up.



I will, just saying that your motivation for making this thread might have been based on a misunderstanding.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 15, 2013)

No, it is a bait thread. So how is Sage Mode Kabuto better than Sage Mode Jiraiya and Sage Mode Naruto, Nikushimi? Does he get strength boosts like they did to knock boss summons into the stratosphere? Speed boosts which enables them to blitz targets from a starting point kilometers away? Weaponize natural energy? Survive Chibaku Tensei escaping strength Kurama? Genjutsu that paralyzes both body and mind? Is his sensing even as good as SM Naruto's which can sense countries away? Does he have ANY techniques on the level of Cho Odama Rasengan or Futon: Rasenshuriken/Futon: Odama Rasenshuriken? No? Then he doesn't have a better Sage Mode or is stronger than either of them. What made Kabuto strong is his Edo Tensei mastery, which he didn't use in Sage Mode.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 15, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I will, just saying that your motivation for making this thread might have been based on a misunderstanding.





			
				SuperSaiyaMan12 said:
			
		

> Except if the Sage Mode abilities were the same, Kishimoto would have shown it. But he didn't. Sage Mode Kabuto displayed inferior durability, inferior strength, comparable speed, inferior ninjutsu enhancement, inferior taijutsu (he can't even weaponize natural energy like Naruto can), inferior genjutsu (Magen: Onsa doesn't compare to Magen: Gamarinsho which can paralyze both mind and body and affect hundreds of enemies). From feats and hype, how the hell can you even argue Kabuto's Sage Mode is comparable to Naruto's or superior?



I don't think I misunderstood anything.


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## Ersa (Nov 15, 2013)

I don't knows man. Kabuto landed two 'legitimate' hits on Itachi; he pretty strongs 

In all seriousness; he should beat SM Naruto and Jiraiya 1v1. _Hakugeki _is serious trouble for both SM users and I don't think SM had shown enough feats to resist it like Kabuto can and unlike the Uchiha brothers they can't summon Susanoo with their minds to protect themselves. 

Thus in the 2v1 one of them is getting swallowed up early or eating a _Muki Tensei_. Even with enhanced SM durability they don't have _Amaterasu_ to force the spikes back. I can see Jiraiya being out of the game quickly with that combo however current Naruto with Ma/Pa should be able to rush Kabuto after that and not give him another chance at _Hakugeki_ via constant clone spam and _Rasengan _nuking. Eventually he can possibly catch him in _Frog Song_.

SM duo, high difficulty.


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## ueharakk (Nov 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't think I misunderstood anything.



dude that pretty much proves you misunderstood.  Even if we assumed that Kabuto's SM yielded overall inferior perks compared to Naruto's, it doesn't mean that when you factor in his actual jutsu and abilities that he loses to the other two in direct combat.

It's like saying Minato's BM is > Naruto's BM because BM Minato would defeat BM Naruto while in actuality it's not Minato's BM that's superior, it's just BM Minato who is.


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## The World (Nov 15, 2013)

They beat him

power of friendship and love winsssssssssssssssssssssss


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## Nikushimi (Nov 15, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, it is a bait thread.



You can think what you like, but there _is_ a point I'm trying to make. 



> So how is Sage Mode Kabuto better than Sage Mode Jiraiya and Sage Mode Naruto, Nikushimi?



Comparable physical abilities, more hax Ninjutsu (Hakugeki, Muki Tensei, Kumo Nenkin, Fushi Tensei), a Genjutsu (Mugen Onsa) that has a better feat than Gamarinshou (catching an MS user and an EMS user vs. catching three watered-down Rinnegan paths) and is much easier to cast, liquification, two different healing factors, body shedding and generation, and it's limitless thanks to Jugo's ability.

On the other hand, Jiraiya and Naruto have more firepower.



> Does he get strength boosts like they did to knock boss summons into the stratosphere?



Yeah, he has Sage Mode.



> Speed boosts which enables them to blitz targets from a starting point kilometers away?



That depends entirely on how fast the target can react.



> Weaponize natural energy?



Drawing in and molding natural energy is the very basis of Senjutsu.



> Survive Chibaku Tensei escaping strength Kurama?



Yep, easily.

Naruto's clone did and it didn't disperse or even sustain any apparent injury.



> Genjutsu that paralyzes both body and mind?



Mugen Onsa doesn't paralyze as completely but it is also a lot faster to use in exchange. That doesn't mean it's weaker, though; paralyzing Itachi and Sasuke at the same time is more impressive from a Genjutsu standpoint than capturing Chikushodou, Gakidou, and Ningendou at the same time.



> Is his sensing even as good as SM Naruto's which can sense countries away?



Never been tested at that range, although he can certainly control Edo Tensei from that kind of distance, so it's pretty plausible.



> Does he have ANY techniques on the level of Cho Odama Rasengan or Futon: Rasenshuriken/Futon: Odama Rasenshuriken? No?



In terms of raw power, no.



> Then he doesn't have a better Sage Mode or is stronger than either of them. What made Kabuto strong is his Edo Tensei mastery, which he didn't use in Sage Mode.



What made Kabuto strong was the fact that he couldn't be injured or killed thanks to his collection of abilities. His Senpou gave him the power to stun enemies and manipulate inorganic matter. Combined with the Jutsu he assimilated from the Sound 5 and his enhanced reflexes, he was able to get the upper hand against TWO tireless MS users, who could only put him down with their best attacks (Totsuka no Tsurugi, Kirin, Enton, Izanami); these two sages don't have anything like that.

The only thing Naruto and Jiraiya can do is try to catch him in Gamarinshou, but good luck pulling that off when all it takes to cast Mugen Onsa is a few seconds. Hakugeki can disturb the air and render auditory Genjutsu ineffective, anyway, so it's basically hopeless for them.


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## Chad (Nov 15, 2013)

The World said:


> Not when Jiraiya can trap Kabuto in his own hell dimension



Frog Song takes incredibly long to prep.

Ma also stated that for the Genjutsu to connect, both of their voices must be perfectly synchronized. Which there are plenty ways to disrupt that synchronization.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 15, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> dude that pretty much proves you misunderstood.  Even if we assumed that Kabuto's SM yielded overall inferior perks compared to Naruto's, it doesn't mean that when you factor in his actual jutsu and abilities that he loses to the other two in direct combat.
> 
> It's like saying Minato's BM is > Naruto's BM because BM Minato would defeat BM Naruto while in actuality it's not Minato's BM that's superior, it's just BM Minato who is.



Actual Jutsu and abilities factor in to what makes Sage Mode effective.

If you take away Jutsu, then all you get is boosted physical stats and Kawazu Kumite (which Naruto trained in and Kabuto and Jiraiya didn't).

But among the key advantages of Sage Mode are its boosts to Ninjutsu and Genjutsu, which aren't reflected in the comparison unless you take those abilities into account.


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## The World (Nov 15, 2013)

Astral said:


> Frog Song takes incredibly long to prep.
> 
> Ma also stated that for the Genjutsu to connect, both of their voices must be perfectly synchronized. Which there are plenty ways to disrupt that synchronization.



Not Frog Song

*Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison*




bye bye Kabuto


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## Nikushimi (Nov 15, 2013)

Kabuto can just summon/reverse-summon himself out of the gourd, unless the Jutsu's barrier somehow blocks that.

It's not like acid is going to hurt the guy with two healing factors and the power to spit out a brand new body, anyway.

Complicating things further, we never actually saw how Jiraiya traps his enemies in that Jutsu, so whether or not he can even pull that off against Kabuto is uncertain.


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## The World (Nov 15, 2013)

Of course it blocks reverse summoning 

Did you not notice Animal Realm dead there? 

Feats of Kabuto surviving acid that can dissolve flesh?


lol are you trying to say the jutsu is unusable? 

Get out


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## ueharakk (Nov 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Actual Jutsu and abilities factor in to what makes Sage Mode effective.
> 
> If you take away Jutsu, then all you get is boosted physical stats and Kawazu Kumite (which Naruto trained in and Kabuto and Jiraiya didn't).
> 
> But among the key advantages of Sage Mode are its boosts to Ninjutsu and Genjutsu, which aren't reflected in the comparison unless you take those abilities into account.


Sure I agree with all of this, but that doesn't mean you put the combatants up against each other to see who's got the better boost.  Rather to see how much their SM has boosted their nin or gen, you do exactly that: compare the boost jiraiya/naruto's nin/gen get from their vs kabuto's nin/gen boost from his SM.  

I mean, you can give base hashirama toad sage mode and he'd stomp naruto and jiraiya into the ground, but it doesn't mean Base Hashi's sage mode > Naruto's.   

Does my explanation make sense?


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## Chad (Nov 15, 2013)

The World said:


> -snip-



Assuming that there is no way to get out of there, then sure Jiraiya would solo if he can catch him.

However, there are plenty ways to escape it. It's a frog after all, there are entry points and exit points inside a frog.



> Feats of Kabuto surviving acid that can dissolve flesh?



I'm pretty sure that a modern day shinobi can just walk on the walls of the stomach to prevent them from drowning in stomach acid.


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## The World (Nov 15, 2013)

It's protected by a special barrier

Nothing short of destroying the whole inside

A feat most likely only a few with that much destructive prowess can cause is not among Kabuto


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## Chad (Nov 15, 2013)

So what's going to stop Kabuto from summoning a huge snake the size of Turtle Island from inside of the frog? I'm pretty sure that level of destructive prowess can rip through a tiny frog.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 15, 2013)

The World said:


> Of course it blocks reverse summoning



That was never shown.



> Did you not notice Animal Realm dead there?



Animal Realm can't regen or spit out new bodies.



> Feats of Kabuto surviving acid that can dissolve flesh?



Kabuto can turn his body into water; he doesn't need to worry about dissolving.



> lol are you trying to say the jutsu is unusable?



I'm saying there's no way to prove it either way; it isn't verifiable.



> Get out



That hurt my feelings. 



ueharakk said:


> Sure I agree with all of this, but that doesn't mean you put the combatants up against each other to see who's got the better boost.  Rather to see how much their SM has boosted their nin or gen, you do exactly that: compare the boost jiraiya/naruto's nin/gen get from their vs kabuto's nin/gen boost from his SM.
> 
> I mean, you can give base hashirama toad sage mode and he'd stomp naruto and jiraiya into the ground, but it doesn't mean Base Hashi's sage mode > Naruto's.
> 
> Does my explanation make sense?



Yeah.

But then what we are left with is this:

Taijutsu: Kabuto lacks feats aside from reaction/evasion.
Ninjutsu: They use totally different and incomparable Ninjutsu.
Genjutsu: Kabuto's Mugen Onsa caught stronger targets than Jiraiya's Gamarinshou did, but we don't have cap feats for either.

So I would still say Sage Mode=Sage Mode and Kabuto's is better because of his Jutsu.


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## The World (Nov 15, 2013)

His matter can still be dissolved


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## The World (Nov 15, 2013)

Niku we don't know how much damage Itachi's megatama does

Unusable


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## Trojan (Nov 15, 2013)

either of them can solo IMO. Kabuto's power is overrated, he only has fodders' jutsu that even shizune and
the others dealt with the 5 sounds in their CS2. The paths' jutsu is way stronger.


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2013)

Unlike the Uchiha brothers who stood there like infants while Kabuto attacked them, Naruto and Jiraiya will act proactively and just kill Kabuto right away. They don't need to stand there and prepare a Jutsu not suited for battle while refraining from using any Jutsu with a possibility of killing Kabuto.

Kabuto doesn't have knowledge on Naruto's Rasenshuriken expansion, so that kills him.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Unlike the Uchiha brothers who stood there like infants while Kabuto attacked them, Naruto and Jiraiya will act proactively and just kill Kabuto right away. They don't need to stand there and prepare a Jutsu not suited for battle while refraining from using any Jutsu with a possibility of killing Kabuto.
> 
> Kabuto doesn't have knowledge on Naruto's Rasenshuriken expansion, so that kills him.



Kabuto has full knowledge here, actually, so he can just liquify and let it slip through harmlessly.

Assuming he doesn't just dodge it with his Susano'o-arrow-dodging reflexes.


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## Trojan (Nov 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Kabuto has full knowledge here, actually, *so he can just liquify and let it slip through harmlessly.*
> 
> Assuming he doesn't just dodge it with his Susano'o-arrow-dodging reflexes.



he can do that? I thought only his snacks can do so.


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## Bonly (Nov 15, 2013)

I'd agree with you Niku in saying SM Kabuto is better then SM Jiraiya and SM only(as in no use of Kurama's chakra period) Naruto in 1V1 fights and could beat them but not to sure about him beating the both of them without Edo Tensei.


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## The World (Nov 15, 2013)

Niku we don't how exactly Itachi defeated galactus

unusable


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## ueharakk (Nov 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Yeah.






Nikushimi said:


> But then what we are left with is this:






Nikushimi said:


> Taijutsu: Kabuto lacks feats aside from reaction/evasion.
> Ninjutsu: They use totally different and incomparable Ninjutsu.
> Genjutsu: Kabuto's Mugen Onsa caught stronger targets than Jiraiya's Gamarinshou did, but we don't have cap feats for either.
> 
> So I would still say Sage Mode=Sage Mode and Kabuto's is better because of his Jutsu.


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## The World (Nov 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> His regen can counteract that while he can spit a new body to safety.



Doesn't matter when he's trapped there

that's assuming he doesn't fall right in and dissolve immediately 

A win for Team Toad :33


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## Nikushimi (Nov 15, 2013)

Elia said:


> he can do that? I thought only his snacks can do so.



They were just past the expiration date.



The World said:


> Niku we don't how exactly Itachi defeated galactus
> 
> unusable



What? It was Genjutsu.


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## Ersa (Nov 15, 2013)

Base Jiraiya >> Itachi + Kisame.
SM Jiraiya >> Base Jiraiya
Itachi > SM Kabuto.

SM Jiraiya >>>>>> SM Kabuto.

Kabuto uses Genin level jutsu.

My logic is flawless :ignoramus


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## Nikushimi (Nov 15, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Base Jiraiya >> Itachi + Kisame.
> SM Jiraiya >> Base Jiraiya
> Itachi > SM Kabuto.
> 
> ...






Mugen Onsa, GG Toad Duo.


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## Chad (Nov 15, 2013)

Elia said:


> either of them can solo IMO. Kabuto's power is overrated, he only has fodders' jutsu that even shizune and
> the others dealt with the 5 sounds in their CS2. The paths' jutsu is way stronger.



Fodder jutsu? Sound 5 is fodder?

Tayuya's jutsu is fodder? Temari was able to deal with Chains of Fantasia because Kamatiri's wide scale futon deflected the sound mediums. Now I don't see how a jutsu that bypassed two city level defenses and takes less than a second to prepare is fodder.

Kimimaro is fodder? Being able to regenerate an entire spine instantly similar to Tsunade is fodder? 

Jirobo is fodder? Last time I checked, D rank doton is able to keep it's shape after taking a hit by a Bijuudama's initial velocity. So is that fodder?

pls you must be one of them downplayers in the NBD


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## ueharakk (Nov 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Kabuto has full knowledge here, actually, so he can just liquify and let it slip through harmlessly.


  If it expands like it did against human, it vaporizes all of Kabuto's body except for the top of his head.  Kabuto can't even move if he's in human-realms situation.  his upper half wouldn't even be attached to his lower half, thus even if he could somehow remotely control his legs, his upper half wouldn't move.

Unfortunately that never even happens since Naruto can now detonate his FRS instead of just horizontally expanding them.



Nikushimi said:


> Assuming he doesn't just dodge it with his Susano'o-arrow-dodging reflexes.


Fast characters with no knowledge opt to side dodge techniques rather than jump over them.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 15, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> If it expands like it did against human, it vaporizes all of Kabuto's body except for the top of his head.  Kabuto can't even move if he's in human-realms situation.  his upper half wouldn't even be attached to his lower half, thus even if he could somehow remotely control his legs, his upper half wouldn't move.
> 
> Unfortunately that never even happens since Naruto can now detonate his FRS instead of just horizontally expanding them.



If Kabuto liquifies, he can stretch his body, let the attack slip through his abdomen, and avoid being reduced to a face on the ground.



> Fast characters with no knowledge opt to side dodge techniques rather than jump over them.



Why do people keep ignoring the match stipulations?

_Full knowledge_. That means both sides.


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Assuming he doesn't just dodge it with his Susano'o-arrow-dodging reflexes.




Naruto throws it at the ground near Kabuto, who get's caught in the explosion. Jiraiya follows up with a "mountain-hollowing" Sage Odama Rasengan. :ignoramus

GG Kabuto.


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## ueharakk (Nov 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> If Kabuto liquifies, he can stretch his body, let the attack slip through his abdomen, and avoid being reduced to a face on the ground.


When naruto expanded it against human realm, it didn't continue forward, it stopped. Same thing happens here.

And you missed the part about naruto not just expanding it, but detonating it when he wants.



Nikushimi said:


> Why do people keep ignoring the match stipulations?
> 
> _Full knowledge_. That means both sides.


my bad


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## Nikushimi (Nov 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Naruto throws it at the ground near Kabuto, who get's caught in the explosion. Jiraiya follows up with a "mountain-hollowing" Sage Odama Rasengan. :ignoramus
> 
> GG Kabuto.



Then Naruto and Jiraiya get caught in the blast and die.

While Kabuto liquifies, regens, and laughs. :ignoramus



ueharakk said:


> When naruto expanded it against human realm, it didn't continue forward, it stopped. Same thing happens here.



Ningendou couldn't turn into water.


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Then Naruto and Jiraiya get caught in the blast and die.
> 
> While Kabuto liquifies, regens, and laughs. :ignoramus




Guess you didn't pick up on the fact that I used the strategy _you_ yourself suggested Sage Naruto should use against the Base Uchiha like a week ago. 



Nikushimi said:


> Naruto just has to throw FRS at the ground somewhere near them and it'll take them all out.


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## ueharakk (Nov 15, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Ningendou couldn't turn into water.



cman main, dondomeladat


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## Trojan (Nov 15, 2013)

Astral said:


> Fodder jutsu? Sound 5 is fodder?
> 
> Tayuya's jutsu is fodder? Temari was able to deal with Chains of Fantasia because Kamatiri's wide scale futon deflected the sound mediums. Now I don't see how a jutsu that bypassed two city level defenses and takes less than a second to prepare is fodder.
> 
> ...



- Well, yeah. @.@
- Well, that's her jutsu, no? You jast can't tell me they can deal with this only because they have
that. That's silly! As for the second part, if someone of Shika and Temari's level dealt with it, I
don't see hos a sannin level shinobi wont. 

- Mmm, Kimmi is not fodder. But, I don't know what do you mean by the second part. @.@

- Yes, he is fodder, he lost to pre time skep choji for God's sake.  
Also, those walls you posted
1- Are not feats for Jirobo to begin with.
2- they failed.
3- the jutsu that Kabuto can use from him is only to move a piece of earth as it did to the Amatersu, that's all.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 15, 2013)

I understand what Nikushimi's trying to do here, but there's a question I want answered:

What is Sage Kabuto's strongest offensive feat? Sage Art: White Extreme Attack and his Chains of Fantasia genjutsu are great ways to immobilize his opponents, but personally, I see no viable method for the guy to actual hurt his opponents, especially when the weaker of the two Frog Sages casually survived an impact large enough to yield a crater that is considerably wider and deeper than that of Liger Bomb.

I'm not buying the notion that a Chakra Scalpel, however senjutsu-enhanced, or Sage Art: Inorganic Animation, can actually hurt them with bifurcating Itachi as the sole feat to attest to. Kabuto's going to need much stronger attacks than the likes of which he's shown thus far.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Guess you didn't pick up on the fact that I used the strategy _you_ yourself suggested Sage Naruto should use against the Base Uchiha like a week ago.



The Uchiha can't liquify, they don't have a healing factor, and they don't have Sage Mode bodies.

Naruto also didn't have a partner to worry about in that match, and keeping distance from a bunch of base Sharingan users is a lot easier than keeping distance from Sage Kabuto. So the circumstances are quite different.



ueharakk said:


> cman main, dondomeladat



Ningendou can't liquify. Kabuto can. I'm sorry. 



ATastyMuffin said:


> I understand what Nikushimi's trying to do here, but there's a question I want answered:
> 
> What is Sage Kabuto's strongest offensive feat? Sage Art: White Extreme Attack and his Chains of Fantasia genjutsu are great ways to immobilize his opponents, but personally, I see no viable method for the guy to actual hurt his opponents, especially when the weaker of the two Frog Sages casually survived an impact large enough to yield a crater that is considerably wider and deeper than that of Liger Bomb.
> 
> I'm not buying the notion that a Chakra Scalpel, however senjutsu-enhanced, or Sage Art: Inorganic Animation, can actually hurt them with bifurcating Itachi as the sole feat to attest to. Kabuto's going to need much stronger attacks than the likes of which he's shown thus far.



Chakra scalpel should do _some_ damage; it's not like it's just going to bounce off their skin.

Kabuto also has Sawarabi no Mai, and presumably Kimimaro's other Shikkotsumyaku abilities, which ought to be a very serious threat with his Senjutsu augmenting it.

He can also consume and assimilate their bodies with Fushi Tensei, apparently, like he was trying to do to Sasuke.


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## Chad (Nov 16, 2013)

Elia said:


> - Well, yeah. @.@
> - Well, that's her jutsu, no? You jast can't tell me they can deal with this only because they have
> that. That's silly! As for the second part, if someone of Shika and Temari's level dealt with it, I
> don't see hos a sannin level shinobi wont.



Just because Jiraiya is a Sannin does not mean he can counter every jutsu that's used by Chunnin level shinobi. For example, Tsunade is a Sannin yet she had a hard time fighting Jonin level techniques used by part 1 Kabuto. You have to take into account their specific abilities, not about their rank. Jiraiya's rank matters not because he overall lacks the ability to repel the sound mediums. 



> - Mmm, Kimmi is not fodder. But, I don't know what do you mean by the second part. @.@



This.



Kimimaro is able to take out his spine, and regenerate one back immediately. When the spinal cord is injured, the initial trauma causes cell damage and destruction, and triggers a cascade of events that spread around the injury site affecting a number of different types of cells. Axons are crushed and torn, and oligonucleotide, the nerve cells that make up the insulating myelitis sheath around axons, begin to die. Exposed axons degenerate, the connection between neurons is disrupted and the flow of information between the brain and the spinal cord is blocked. This is what happens when one would take out a spine. Kimimaro never showcased these symptoms, almost as if he regenerated his entire spine instantly; just like Tsunade's Byakugou has showcased. That's what makes Kimimaro/Kabuto a top tier in terms of regeneration. The Shikottsumyaku's healing technique is portrayed even similar to Hashirama, who was stated by Madara to be able to heal wounds without weaving a single hand sign.





> - Yes, he is fodder, he lost to pre time skep choji for God's sake.
> Also, those walls you posted
> 1- Are not feats for Jirobo to begin with.
> 2- they failed.
> 3- the jutsu that Kabuto can use from him is only to move a piece of earth as it did to the Amatersu, that's all.



-Tsunade lost to part 1 Kabuto, does that mean she is fodder? Of course not. Jirobo may not be well proficient in combat, but his abilities are what are truly deadly. 

1. Jirobo's mastery in doton is B rank, which is leagues above the low rank doton that Kitsuchi taught the Shinobi Alliance. My point was never that Jirobo could do it, but Kabuto who has one of the biggest chakra reserves in that manga can likely do what the fodder alliance did on a smaller scale.
2. It failing in that scenario is not the point. The fact of the matter is that basic doton walls were able to temporarily resist the strongest and fastest attack shown on panel. Remember that it's not about how strong the technique is, it's about how/when to use it.
3. What's to stop him from making more? Kabuto with all his DNA gathered has one of the biggest chakra reserves in the series. His ability to constantly gather nature energy would reduce the chakra cost of casting doton. Kabuto can clearly spam B rank doton as much as he wants.


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## Rocky (Nov 16, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The Uchiha can't liquify, they don't have a healing factor, and they don't have Sage Mode bodies.




This has nothing to do with the fact that you said Naruto would get caught in the blast and die in this thread, while suggesting the exact opposite in another.

Kabuto also has never regenerated from anything like Rasenshuriken, which was hyped to be beyond even Tsunade's ability to heal. That was _before _the Senjutsu enhancements too. Also, Naruto could just use that God Tree Flower-sized Rasenshuriken and probably vaporize Kabtuo.



> Naruto also didn't have a partner to worry about in that match, and keeping distance from a bunch of base Sharingan users is a lot easier than keeping distance from Sage Kabuto. So the circumstances are quite different.




....

Jiraiya can stand next to Naruto, and Kabuto isn't much faster than Itachi.


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## Trojan (Nov 16, 2013)

> Astral said:
> 
> 
> > Just because Jiraiya is a Sannin does not mean he can counter every jutsu that's used by Chunnin level shinobi. For example, Tsunade is a Sannin yet she had a hard time fighting Jonin level techniques used by part 1 Kabuto. You have to take into account their specific abilities, not about their rank. Jiraiya's rank matters not because he overall lacks the ability to repel the sound mediums.
> ...


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## M king16 (Nov 16, 2013)

The sage duo takes this high deff


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 16, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Naruto throws it at the ground near Kabuto, who get's caught in the explosion. Jiraiya follows up with a "mountain-hollowing" Sage Odama Rasengan. :ignoramus
> 
> GG Kabuto.



Mountain hollower soloes 



ATastyMuffin said:


> I understand what Nikushimi's trying to do here, but there's a question I want answered:
> 
> What is Sage Kabuto's strongest offensive feat? Sage Art: White Extreme Attack and his Chains of Fantasia genjutsu are great ways to immobilize his opponents, but personally, I see no viable method for the guy to actual hurt his opponents, especially when the weaker of the two Frog Sages casually survived an impact large enough to yield a crater that is considerably wider and deeper than that of Liger Bomb.
> 
> I'm not buying the notion that a Chakra Scalpel, however senjutsu-enhanced, or Sage Art: Inorganic Animation, can actually hurt them with bifurcating Itachi as the sole feat to attest to. Kabuto's going to need much stronger attacks than the likes of which he's shown thus far.



Liger bomb is stronger than fodder summons head bash. The crater it created is alot bigger. 
Jiraiya'd instantly die to Liger bomb.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 16, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Chakra scalpel should do _some_ damage; it's not like it's just going to bounce off their skin.



That's cool, I just need some concrete feats to lend that notion credence. There is an_ incredibly_ large gap between Itachi and the Sages when it concerns durability.



> Kabuto also has Sawarabi no Mai, and presumably Kimimaro's other Shikkotsumyaku abilities, which ought to be a very serious threat with his Senjutsu augmenting it.



To my understanding, Kabuto has only utilized the Sound Five' abilities in their respective base forms, as in, lacking their Cursed Seal-enhancements. However, given that the Cursed Seal was explicitly described as senjutsu, I wouldn't be surprised if Kabuto's Sage Mode naturally improved his Kimimaro's bone manipulation to the latter's CS2-levels.

That doesn't_ necessarily_ validate a claim that it can pierce Naruto or Jiraiya. What's CS2 Kimimaro's greatest offensive feat?



> He can also consume and assimilate their bodies with Fushi Tensei, apparently, like he was trying to do to Sasuke.



That's very true. However, I believe that even if Kabuto manages to momentarily paralyze either of the Frog Sages and rushes in for an assimilation, Naruto can deflect him with his Frog Fu techniques; i.e., using natural energy to send him flying as he did with Preta Path.

This would allow the White Extreme attack to end its duration, freeing the Sages.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 16, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The Uchiha can't liquify, they don't have a healing factor, and they don't have Sage Mode bodies.



Actually Kabuto has a number of healing factors. Three of which are enhanced by Sage Mode.


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## Vice (Nov 16, 2013)

Sage Kabuto was stalemating with Itachi in strength.

Sage Naruto was tossing around boss summons.

C'mon man.


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## Tarot (Nov 17, 2013)

A few things:
-Dragon Sage Mode by itself isn't stronger that Toad Sage, the only reason Kabuto doesn't suffer recoil from moves like White Rage is because of Suigetsu's DNA.
-What is Muki Tensei even being brought up? SM can easily tank it


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## kaminogan (Nov 17, 2013)

sage mode kabuto didn't have edo's to begin with, we should just agree that every fight kabuto starts in has edo tensei "restricted" and that the OP can add it if he or she wants,

as for the fight, kabuto wins,

he can muki tensei the frogs if he wants, and then genjutsu them with tayuya, 

he can then outlast them via jirobo dome, 

lastly the finishing blow is either bone dance or muki tensei (once they run out of sage),


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2013)

Death Arcana said:


> A few things:
> -Dragon Sage Mode by itself isn't stronger that Toad Sage, the only reason Kabuto doesn't suffer recoil from moves like White Rage is because of Suigetsu's DNA.
> -What is Muki Tensei even being brought up? SM can easily tank it



I'd expect nature energy induced stalagmites to be more durable than regular stalagmites. Just like SM Naruto is more durable than  his base form.

So no, he doesn't easily tank it.


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## ueharakk (Nov 17, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'd expect nature energy induced stalagmites to be more durable than regular stalagmites. Just like SM Naruto is more durable than  his base form.
> 
> So no, he doesn't easily tank it.



The senjutsu is only used to control and animate the already-existing stalagmites so the durability of the stalagmites are not changed.  Only if the stalagmites were created by senjutsu chakra would their durability be increased.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> The senjutsu is only used to control and animate the already-existing stalagmites so the durability of the stalagmites are not changed.  Only if the stalagmites were created by senjutsu chakra would their durability be increased.



Senjutsu doesn't create Naruto either, it increases his existing durability.

I'd expect the same with the stalagmites. They become more like an organic entity when Kabuto controls them with senjutsu.


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## ueharakk (Nov 17, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Senjutsu doesn't create Naruto either, it increases his existing durability.


Naruto creates senjutsu though which replaces the already existing chakra within himself which thus increases all aspects of his being.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'd expect the same with the stalagmites. They become more like an organic entity when Kabuto controls them with senjutsu.


Stalagmites aren't humans with a chakra system that are powered by chakra....  If Gaara used senjutsu to control his sand, the durability of his sand wouldn't increase as it's still sand.  Same as if Kisame used a senjutsu suiton to control water, the water wouldn't be any more durable than normal water.  Same if Sasuke used senjutsu to control kirin.


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## KawaiiKyuubi (Nov 17, 2013)

^ You seriously don't think senjutsu would enhance Gaara's sand? Seriously? Dude, come on. 

Senpo: Sabakku Sousou is going to crush even huge durability freaks, and Senpo: Shield of Shukaku, Suna no Yoroi and Suna no Tate are going to be hugely amped. Sage Gaara would be haxxed to fuckery dude, and you know it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Naruto creates senjutsu though which replaces the already existing chakra within himself which thus increases all aspects of his being.


The same chakra that is used for Muki tensei ? 




> Stalagmites aren't humans with a chakra system that are powered by chakra....  If Gaara used senjutsu to control his sand, the durability of his sand wouldn't increase as it's still sand.  Same as if Kisame used a senjutsu suiton to control water, the water wouldn't be any more durable than normal water.  Same if Sasuke used senjutsu to control kirin.



I think these are all baseless assertions.

Stalagmites are controlled with sage chakra, and are given new features. They aren't just stalagmites, stalagmites usually don't have organic properties.

Naruto can infuse Minato's rasengan wtih sage chakra, something which is already created by someone elses chakra, and makes it stronger.


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## ueharakk (Nov 17, 2013)

KawaiiKyuubi said:


> ^ You seriously don't think senjutsu would enhance Gaara's sand? Seriously? Dude, come on.
> 
> Senpo: Sabakku Sousou is going to crush even huge durability freaks, and Senpo: Shield of Shukaku, Suna no Yoroi and Suna no Tate are going to be hugely amped. Sage Gaara would be haxxed to fuckery dude, and you know it.



Senjutsu would enhanced Gaara's 'sand defense' by allowing him compress his sand a lot more and manipulate a lot more sand, but it wouldn't increase the durability of the sand particles he controls.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 17, 2013)

Since does SM differ for each user? Just like the MS, the only thing that differs with SM users is their unique patterns. Obviously other things like skill etc come into it.


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## Krippy (Nov 17, 2013)

Kabuto is stronger then each of them individually, not sure if they can take him out together or not


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## Bansai (Nov 17, 2013)

We know that Sasuke is Naruto's equal and we also know that if Jiraiya and Itachi would have a fight, they'd both die (that has been said by Kishimoto), which means that we could assume that Edo Itachi is strongern than Jiraiya. Yet the Uchiha brothers only managed to defeat Kabuto by putting him under a strong Genjutsu. But what could Naruto and Jiraiya do? Pretty much nothing, as Kabuto is "immune" to any kind of Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Genjutsu abilities (except for Izanami). I don't really see how he could possibly lose this.


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## kaminogan (Nov 17, 2013)

i do not think sage energy replaces the users chakra,

as it would turn the user to stone,

rather that, one absorbs an amount of sage energy equivalent to ones own chakra reserves,


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## ueharakk (Nov 17, 2013)

kaminogan said:


> i do not think sage energy replaces the users chakra,
> 
> as it would turn the user to stone,
> 
> rather that, one absorbs an amount of sage energy equivalent to ones own chakra reserves,



theres no such thing as 'sage energy' there's only 'natural energy' or 'senjutsu chakra' and it's the sage chakra which replaces one's own chakra reserves for the duration of sage mode.


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