# Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke vs Sage Mode Naruto



## SusanooKakashiCanon (Jan 13, 2015)

Sasuke when he fought Danzo vs Naruto when he fought Pain.

Only their own powers are allowed, Sasuke can't use Cursed Seal, and Naruto can't depend on Kyubi.
They can use all of their summons, including Garuda and Aoda.

Sasuke doesn't know extent of Sage Mode, and Naruto doesn't know about Susanoo (at the level it was during Sasuke's fight with Danzo) and Kirin.

Edit: Both of them are fighting in the open, distance, whatever, 30 meters, no friendship emotions, just wanting to win against opponent no matter what.


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## SoleAccord (Jan 13, 2015)

I'm handing it to Sasuke more times than not strictly because the Sasuke that fought Danzo was an MS spamming maniac who never hesitated in using Amaterasu or Susano'o. Lack of knowledge on the new abilities seems pretty even, Naruto knows a Mangekyo Sharingan is deadly and I doubt Sasuke cares about Naruto's new powers anyway. 

Does Naruto at this point in time have the feats to suggest he can dodge the arrow without knowledge of his power is my question. Naruto IC won't use Rasenshuriken on Sasuke at this point in time, and I believe he even admitted inferiority in front of the K11 when it came to beating him, which may weaken the Sage Naruto stance immensely. 

Sasuke will go berserk and use Susano'o before Naruto decides on RasenShuriken, though if he decides to I imagine Sasuke would shoot him before he prepared it.

OP didn't mention mindsets so I'm assuming IC.
Didn't mention starting distance so assuming a standard 30 meters or so.
Did not include a location, which is highly important.
Knowledge I will assume as IC just as mindset.

Sasuke's style of battle at this point is going to draw on his ultimate abilities much faster than Naruto will, and ICly Naruto won't want to go all out on his best friend. Again, we don't know shit, so I need to assume everything...

Summon's wont come out, only thing IC for Sasuke might be a hawk but I doubt he needs to go airborne against Naruto. I can't be convinced Naruto will pull out toad summons on a Mangekyo Sharingan, but if so they're dead.


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## Bonly (Jan 13, 2015)

I have no clue who Garuda is but this fight could go either way. Naruto has the tools to get through Susanoo and fuck up Sasuke in CQC but Sasuke has to tools to land a fatal if Naruto has a miss step or when he runs out of SM after five minutes or two uses of FRS.


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## SusanooKakashiCanon (Jan 13, 2015)

Garuda is Sasuke's hawk summon.


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## SoleAccord (Jan 13, 2015)

Then with you confirming in the OP the conditions, sticking with* Sasuke - Low-Mid difficulty *depending on if Naruto can dodge his arrow without knowledge of it. Sasuke's draw is faster than Naruto's at this point in time.


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## Hachibi (Jan 13, 2015)

Not sure restricting Curse Seal will do anything since Sasuke lost it against Itachi.

Anyways, Sasuke should win more time than not because of the Mindset.


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## Trojan (Jan 13, 2015)

Naruto wins mid difficult if he is not holding back against Sasuke as he always does.
high difficult if he is holding back.


Chapter 453: 
Suigetsu: This Naruto fellow defeated Pain all by himself?
Zetsu: That's right he has become extremely strong...In fact I think he is stronger than Sasuke right now.
Tobi: Thus even if Sasuke surpasses Nagato, it is completely meaningless if we can't control him. So I have no intention of linking him to the Gedo Statue any time soon. I think it would be wiser to just keep an eye on him.


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## Hachibi (Jan 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Naruto wins mid difficult if he is not holding back against Sasuke as he always does.
> high difficult if he is holding back.
> 
> 
> ...



>Using a statement that concerned a older version of Sasuke then the one in the thread



Also Zetsu said *I think*, which basically mean he's not sure.


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## Trojan (Jan 13, 2015)

cry some more. 




the Kid has always been ahead of him.


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## Hachibi (Jan 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> cry some more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Except during the first part of Part I and Part II  and also during the Second VotE after Sauce absorbed all of the Bijuu's chakra


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## Trojan (Jan 13, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Except during the first part of Part I and Part II  and also during the Second VotE after Sauce absorbed all of the Bijuu's chakra



-Do you mean like when the Kid tied him up with a rope? 
 - Yeah, because the Kid fought Oro, and was barely able to walk, good for Sasuke. 
- Yeah, he absorbed the Kid's chakra, and still got knocked out the entire night and admitted defeat.


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## Hachibi (Jan 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> -Do you mean like when the Kid tied him up with a rope?



That was a ambush.



> - Yeah, because the Kid fought Oro, and was barely able to walk, good for Sasuke.



>Implying that would have mattered.



> - Yeah, he absorbed the Kid's chakra, and still got knocked out the entire night and admitted defeat.



Was talking about Bijuu Perfect Susano, who smacked Naruto around until he absorbed the whole Planet's Energy.

Also ignoring that Naruto refused Sasuke's statement and said that no one won and no one lost


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## SoleAccord (Jan 13, 2015)

Are those panels from the end of the manga, where their powers tripled, rather than the conditions the OP put forth? 

Naruto admitted that at Sasuke's level Naruto couldn't beat him, this is Naruto admitting it to everyone in the K11 up front, rather than someone who doesn't know these two commenting on it like Zetsu. I'm not using that as my entire argument, but it does mean that Naruto's crediting Sasuke's abilities as being far superior to his own with one clash of Chidori v.s. Rasengan. That is the Hero of Konoha, the guy who took out Pain, admitting that Sasuke was stronger than him in one exchange without having any idea what Sasuke's entire arsenal is capable of. I don't think you can downplay that. 

That hype means something - Zetsu is just a spectator, Naruto is a fighter. I'm listening more to Naruto's words on this fight than Zetsu's own speculation.


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## Trojan (Jan 13, 2015)

> =Hachibi;52676870]That was a ambush.


He fooled him with a clone for crying out loud. 



> >Implying that would have mattered.


I would love to see him fight 4tails Narudo. 


> Was talking about Bijuu Perfect Susano, who smacked Naruto around until he absorbed the whole Planet's Energy.



Yeah, that PS who couldn't even defeat the clone, cool story. 



> Also ignoring that Naruto refused Sasuke's statement and said that no one won and no one lost


just because the kid is too nice does not change the fact that he was a walk, and Sasuke was knocked out. And you're the one who's ignoring Sasuke's statement that he lost and the Kid has always been ahead of him. Stop being butthurt.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jan 13, 2015)

Bonly said:


> This fight could go either way. Naruto has the tools to get through Susanoo and fuck up Sasuke in CQC but Sasuke has to tools to land a fatal if Naruto has a miss step or when he runs out of SM after five minutes or two uses of FRS.



I could agree with this.

Danger sensing and ma's dust clouds are good at hindering sasuke's amaterasu, sight and maybe even dealing with susanoo arrows(kinda iffy on this one though). Susanoo was getting ripped apart by danzo's vacuum blades which are garbage in comparison to FRS so if it gets hit with one of those sasuke in trouble. A naked sasuke would get wrecked by invisible ghost frog fu. Sound moves also would mess with sasuke's focus whether he is in susanoo or not and leave him open.

On the other hand sasuke got flight to help get out of naruto's range and genjutsu to threaten frog summons that could get naruto high enough to reach(gama trio). Stall tactics like that are good against naruto's sage time limit and if he reverts back to base sasuke would just cut his head off. 

If naruto didn't do something really retarded then i would favor him as he got more going for him in this battle. MS sasuke got tagged by danzo in CQC and in SM naruto would not let sasuke get away with being tagged. However staying in susanoo makes him a easier target for FRS since sasuke is not as mobile in it as he is out of it. Sasuke's best bet to play defense and try to outlast naruto's SM(kinda like how the six paths of pain did).


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## Trojan (Jan 13, 2015)

SoleAccord said:


> Are those panels from the end of the manga, where their powers tripled, rather than the conditions the OP put forth?
> 
> Naruto admitted that at Sasuke's level Naruto couldn't beat him, this is Naruto admitting it to everyone in the K11 up front, rather than someone who doesn't know these two commenting on it like Zetsu. I'm not using that as my entire argument, but it does mean that Naruto's crediting Sasuke's abilities as being far superior to his own with one clash of Chidori v.s. Rasengan. That is the Hero of Konoha, the guy who took out Pain, admitting that Sasuke was stronger than him in one exchange without having any idea what Sasuke's entire arsenal is capable of. I don't think you can downplay that.
> 
> That hype means something - Zetsu is just a spectator, Naruto is a fighter. I'm listening more to Naruto's words on this fight than Zetsu's own speculation.



Cool story, except he did not. 


and he was only talking about Indra inside of him, and all that crap.


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## SusanooKakashiCanon (Jan 13, 2015)

That "strength" that Sasuke mentioned wasn't a battle strength.

And it is one of the worst retcons to make him more similar to Naruto; during story Sasuke never really showed interest in Naruto and his strength (he didn't even care if Naruto is stronger than him in Part 2, much less being jealous).

Naruto himself said that Sasuke's weren't fixed on him (they were focused on Itachi) in flashbacks.

Naruto being stronger or weaker was never Sasuke's real concern when compared to his revenge on Itachi, Konoha and Danzo, or his revolution.

So that part about him being jealous of Naruto really came out of nowhere.


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## Hachibi (Jan 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> He fooled him with a clone for crying out loud.



Considering even Kaguya got fooled by a clone 



> I would love to see him fight 4tails Narudo.



He doesn't need to since Naruto kill himself in that mode 



> Yeah, that PS who couldn't even defeat the clone, cool story.



And that BM couldn't even defeat Pre-Bijuu PS, cool story 



> just because the kid is too nice does not change the fact that he was a walk, and Sasuke was knocked out.



It doesn't matter since both couldn't move, unless Naruto could kill with a glare 



> And you're the one who's ignoring Sasuke's statement that he lost and the Kid has always been ahead of him. Stop being butthurt.



I'm just doing what you're doing 

Still loving you tho


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## Trojan (Jan 13, 2015)

> =Hachibi;52676923]Considering even Kaguya got fooled by a clone


Good, so you admit that he got fooled and defeated. Moving on.


> He doesn't need to since Naruto kill himself in that mode


He did not tho. 


> And that BM couldn't even defeat Pre-Bijuu PS, cool story


Which is why I said "if he is not holding back" 

He's too nice for his own good. 


> It doesn't matter since both couldn't move, unless Naruto could kill with a glare


He could have done during the long hours if night had he wanted. Also, he was planning to kill Oro with glares if I remember correctly.  


> I'm just doing what you're doing
> 
> Still loving you tho


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## SoleAccord (Jan 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Cool story, except he did not.
> 
> 
> and he was only talking about Indra inside of him, and all that crap.



I still see Naruto knowing that fighting Sasuke was pointless at that point in time - he didn't want to take Sasuke on. Sasuke was damn near blind and was confident he'd beat his former Team regardless - call it insanity, but he was ready to fight regardless of Naruto's overwhelming advantage in stamina. 

Plus the conditions OP listed in this match favor Sasuke in both knowledge and distance, not to mention it's an open field and this version of Sasuke will use Susano'o and Amaterasu at will - the most you suggested was 'Naruto wins' but didn't explain how he wins this. Can you make an argument or is this going to come down to bringing up things that are irrelevant concerning the current versions of these two? I don't want to see chapter 698-699 speeches, I want some feats, I want some facts. Hussain, if you can't give me something to work with, there's no debating. I mean you can keep using smug smilies all you want, but it's not changing anything. 

You either make a case or you don't have one, that's how it is man.


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## Blu-ray (Jan 13, 2015)

Don't think Sasuke should be allowed Aoda in this thread. For all we know he could have been a midget snake just like how Gamakichi was a lil boy during the Pain arc.

I'm giving the match to Sasuke though. Because of his spam happy mindset, he'll be camping inside Susano'o removing the threat of getting blindsided by Frog Kata, and normal Rasengan variants don't have the power to bust Susano'o and kill him, meaning he can reform it if damaged.

Rasenshuriken is simply gonna get countered by Amaterasu, and making a massive pile of flames that can prep Kirin. Summons aren't going to be helping Naruto either. Sasuke will just control them with genjutsu or burn them down.

As for how he puts Naruto down, Amaterasu should do it. Naruto can sense it coming of course, but he doesn't have the speed to actually evade it. Sage Mode's limit of 5 minutes/2 Rasenshuriken means Sasuke can wait it out too. He could keep spamming for 10 minutes against Danzo.


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## Hachibi (Jan 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Good, so you admit that he got fooled and defeated. Moving on.



Still got ambushed.



> He did not tho.



That's because of his mother's gene and plot 



> Which is why I said "if he is not holding back"
> 
> He's too nice for his own good.



Sasuke's BPS was holding back too. He could have Indra's Arrow's their asses instead of fighting them CQC.



> He could have done during the long hours if night had he wanted. Also, he was planning to kill Oro with glares if I remember correctly.



How would you know if he didn't? 

Also, he said he would glare at Oro if his only member left is his head, tho he wouldn't survive that 



>


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## SusanooKakashiCanon (Jan 13, 2015)

Let's be honest, Sasuke was even more nerfed in that last fight - no genjutsu (which I hear, according to The Last movie, works on him), no Izanagi (which was shown that anyone with Sharingan can use), and did he even used Amenotejikara?

EDIT: Ah, yeah, it seems he did used Amenotejikara...

Still nerfed, though...


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## Hachibi (Jan 13, 2015)

SusanooKakashiCanon said:


> Let's be honest, Sasuke was even more nerfed in that last fight - no genjutsu (which I hear, according to The Last movie, works on him), no Izanagi (which was shown that anyone with Sharingan can use), and did he even used Amenotejikara?



He did use Amenotejikara once. It was used to get behind Naruto to Chidori'd him, which pushed Naruto back instead of stabbing him for some reason.


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## Blu-ray (Jan 13, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> He did use Amenotejikara once. It was used to get behind Naruto to Chidori'd him, which pushed Naruto back instead of stabbing him for some reason.



He used it when he blitzed the Bijuu clone too, so two times... and no other Rinnegan skills


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 13, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Was talking about Bijuu Perfect Susano, who smacked Naruto around until he absorbed the whole Planet's Energy.


And that was still a Naruto who wasn't full strength and was still running on empty, Hachibi. Naruto has more restrictions and handicaps than Sasuke...who got a power up mid fight.


> Also ignoring that Naruto refused Sasuke's statement and said that no one won and no one lost


Sasuke's statement trumps that comedic one. Naruto won, flat out and Sasuke admitted it.


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## ARGUS (Jan 13, 2015)

Naruto wins this high diff

 - Amaterasus chakra built up is sensed by naruto as he blocks sasukes LoS  with either a smoke bomb or mas dust cloud, therefore rendering sasukes efforts useless, 

 - Susanoo arrow is also getting countered the same way as amaterasu its not doing shit here,not to mention that Naruto can simply evade it with his own speed, seeing how it travels the same speed as an FRS *[X]* *[X]* which was whose speed is comparable (if not slower) than sm narutos 

 - Sasukes susanoo is not doing much either, not when a single FRS has the firepower to breach any susanoo bar V4, which still takes heavy damage (not that it matters since sasuke cant even matintain it), so if sasuke survives, then naruto simply fires up another FRS and sasuke  gets killed 

 - genjutsu is also not happening, not when naruto has clones here as well as SM sensing and intel to be wary of it 

 - With ma and pa here, naruto can also paralyse sasuke with frog call, which iimmediately allows him to land a proper blow on sasuke and finish him off 

 -  engaging naruto  in CQC is also a suicide when sasuke gets obliterated and raped by naruto and his clones,and with the drawbacks of MS hindering his speed and reflexes, means that he gets outclassed in every category here


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## ATastyMuffin (Jan 13, 2015)

SoleAccord said:


> Naruto admitted that at Sasuke's level Naruto couldn't beat him, this is Naruto admitting it to everyone in the K11 up front



*Dead wrong*, SoleAccord, in fact you're so far off the mark it borders on parody. Here is the Viz translation:



Naruto was discrediting the idea of strength *entirely* as his metric for 'beating' Sasuke, he sensed Indra's chakra and knew the battle he had to win was something at far greater significance than just 'who's more powerful than who?' And that, of course, was the centuries-old rivalry between Asura and his brother.



> rather than someone who doesn't know these two commenting on it like Zetsu



Actually, Zetsu remarked rather plainly that Sage Naruto following the battle with Pain was stronger than the Sasuke he witnessed fighting Killer Bee. He watched Naruto's fight and he most likely did so with Sasuke's as well. Given he can appear, well, everywhere, it would stand to reason he had a solid amount of credibility when formulating that comparison.

That's why when people say Sasuke can win this with *just* Amaterasu, they don't realize that Zetsu had to take that technique into account when dictating Naruto's superiority. It'll definitely take more than even the deadliest black flames to defeat Sage Naruto - no, Sasuke will have to go all-out here to stand a chance.



> I'm not using that as my entire argument, but it does mean that Naruto's crediting Sasuke's abilities as being far superior to his own with one clash of Chidori v.s. Rasengan.



SoleAccord, you do realize this portion of your argument only serves to *exacerbate* the absurdity of the notion that Naruto was ever talking about power in the first place, right? Ask yourself this, how the fuck is it at all logical that Naruto could come to the conclusion that Sasuke was tangibly more powerful than he was despite not knowing _anything_ about the latter’s capabilities of his Mangekyō Sharingan, yes? 

There are only two measurable things relevant to strength at all that occurred in that confrontation: Naruto moving considerably faster than Sasuke to save Sakura, and equaling his rival with techniques they’d used three years earlier. Your stance makes zero sense, and the Viz translation serves to completely refute it.


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## SoleAccord (Jan 13, 2015)

In your urge to exclaim Naruto's superiority, was spoiler-tagging that image not a priority? You're actually really late on calling that out.

You're coming at me like I'm not the type of person to admit I'm wrong, and much too aggressively considering my argument didn't rely purely on Naruto admitting he had nothing on him anyway. The conditions of the match, to me, still put Sasuke in favor. Make a case that Naruto can end this in five minutes, and I'll listen. Until that time, I'm still handing it to Sasuke. Whether I decide to raise the difficulty or not remains to be seen.

This is the Sasuke that took on Danzo, not the Sasuke that fought Bee. Zetsu's opinion is one thing, but Naruto flat out knowing that beating Sasuke took more than just strength also meant something. As he was, he couldn't reach Sasuke, and had no answer to fighting him at that point. Naruto realizing he wasn't able to reach Sasuke with one clash of jutsu makes as much sense as putting those two in a blank space and having a conversation in the middle of it - I don't make the rules, the author does. 

Make a case Tasty, and spoiler tag oversized images. Or just delete it, Hussain already showed me this. I guess you didn't read the rest of the thread in your haste. 

I'm sitting here waiting to be proved wrong. So, surprise me - how does this Naruto pull this off?


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## ARGUS (Jan 13, 2015)

SoleAccord said:


> Then with you confirming in the OP the conditions, sticking with* Sasuke - Low-Mid difficulty *depending on if Naruto can dodge his arrow without knowledge of it. Sasuke's draw is faster than Naruto's at this point in time.


Susanoo arrows are not doing shit here, so they are countered as stated in my post 


> - Susanoo arrow is also getting countered the same way as amaterasu by blocking sasukes LoS with smoke bombs and dust clouds, its not doing shit here,not to mention that Naruto can simply evade it with his own speed, seeing how it travels the same speed as an FRS *[X]* *[X]* which was whose speed is comparable (if not slower) than sm narutos



Sasuke here has no chance at winning, especially with ma and pa here, and the fact that his susanoo is not tanking narutos firepower at all


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## Blu-ray (Jan 14, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Naruto wins this high diff
> 
> - Amaterasus chakra built up is sensed by naruto as he blocks sasukes LoS  with either a smoke bomb or mas dust cloud, therefore rendering sasukes efforts useless,



He would have to start doing this _after_ the charge has begun, and finish _before_ it's complete. Amaterasu's buildup isn't that slow. Unless Naruto intends to stay hidden within the smoke forever and not fight, Sasuke will get a clear line of sight.



> - Susanoo arrow is also getting countered the same way as amaterasu its not doing shit here,not to mention that Naruto can simply evade it with his own speed, seeing how it travels the same speed as an FRS [X][/B] *[X]* which was whose speed is comparable (if not slower) than sm narutos



That was a synchronized attack. Any normal difference in speed would have been adjusted, so it's is no more evidence of them having the same speed than Naruto and Sasuke running together is evidence of KCM Naruto and Sasuke having the same movement speed.




> - Sasukes susanoo is not doing much either, not when a single FRS has the firepower to breach any susanoo bar V4, which still takes heavy damage (not that it matters since sasuke cant even matintain it), so if sasuke survives, then naruto simply fires up another FRS and sasuke  gets killed



He had no issue maintaining it for several minutes against Danzo, and this fight will last at the very maximum 5. Even if Susano'o takes damage, it's not going to get breached and kill Sasuke in the same instant meaning it can just be reformed. Naruto's got a limited number of Rasenshuriken too.

Kagutsuchi will simply be used to counter FRS anyway, so Susano'o is kind of a moot point here.



> - genjutsu is also not happening, not when naruto has clones here as well as SM sensing and intel to be wary of it



A given.



> - With ma and pa here, naruto can also paralyse sasuke with frog call, which iimmediately allows him to land a proper blow on sasuke and finish him off



They have access to summons, but don't start with them here. Ma and Pa, take a significant amount of time to summon during which Naruto can't even fight, and probably the main reason why he never bothered once in canon. They're not going to a be a factor here. Not to mention a single glance can knock them out.



> -  engaging naruto  in CQC is also a suicide when sasuke gets obliterated and raped by naruto and his clones,and with the drawbacks of MS hindering his speed and reflexes, means that he gets outclassed in every category here



He'll be camping in Susano'o, so CQC is about as likely a prospect as Sasuke trapping Naruto in genjutsu.


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## SoleAccord (Jan 14, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Susanoo arrows are not doing shit here, so they are countered as stated in my post



War Naruto and Pre-War Naruto are two different things here. This is the Sage Naruto that fought Pain, not the Sage Naruto that fought in the war. Naruto put work into training since that time. If this Naruto was War Sage Naruto, maybe I'd believe that, except that Naruto and Sasuke have no knowledge on those two attacks and Sasuke's draw is faster than Sage Naruto's own wind-up. A better idea is smoke bombs into FRS to prevent the Susano'o draw from being accurate, as well as an immediate Amaterasu towards him. I'm accounting for lack of knowledge too, and Naruto didn't know much about the Mangekyo at this point in time other than avoid the eyes at all costs. 

EDIT - And yes, Volatile Soul makes a good point. Collaboration techniques are meant to be used in unison or close succession, it would do no good to have one be faster than the other. But with my original point, that's not the Naruto we're talking about here, and not the one OP was either. 



> Sasuke here has no chance at winning, especially with ma and pa here



I disagree, and OP never stated they were already present, and Naruto ever actually tried to summon them into battle. They CAME with him to Konoha, as did the other summons.



> , and the fact that his susanoo is not tanking narutos firepower at all



If he draws faster than Naruto does, and I believe he will, 'tanking' won't matter. If Sasuke doesn't stop FRS mid-flight with his own arrow, I don't see why he won't release Susano'o in its highest form at that point and take flight with his hawk summon. Naruto is strong, but he's not wasteful, and he's not drunk on power. Sage Mode still has its limits and Naruto, hungry for blood or not, is still going to respect what Sasuke can do as a rival and a friend. Sasuke, however, ICly doesn't give a shit. He's full of rage and doesn't care for anyone - if he can use Susano'o off the bat, he will, that's how he ran until EMS came.

However, if OP suddenly claims that Ma and Pa are present (and they didn't), then this goes in Naruto's favor more. Naruto never summoned these two, and it even took Jiraiya quite some time to draw on them and he had years more time training as a Sage. If Naruto can summon Ma and Pa and use a smoke bomb faster than Sasuke can draw on an arrow or light the area of summoning in Amaterasu flames, then his odds are significantly greater. Until that time though, nah, Ma and Pa aren't just automatically there. If OP makes it so though, I'll concede here and switch my difficulty or hell, maybe even my vote entirely. I'm really interested in revoking my decision, I just want someone to convince me of how it's going to happen. It may not seem like it, but I CAN be reasoned with - show me the light. I don't even like this version of Sasuke that much, I'd love for him to lose, I just can't see it with these conditions. If you believe I voted for Sasuke out of some bias then I assure you I'm not. Should someone show me how Naruto can make this fight at least a High-Diff to Extreme, I will gladly change my verdict.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 14, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Susanoo arrows are not doing shit here, so they are countered as stated in my post



 No it's not. Danzo couldn't even use Izanagi at a far distance and had to resort to using Hashirama's Cells. There's also the fact that Susanoo Arrow's speed surpasses Amaterasu's which at close range, even a V2 Raikage had to use Shunshin in order to dodge it. SM Naruto will likely have to resort to close range tactics which will leave him vulnerable to Amaterasu eventually.




> Sasuke here has no chance at winning, especially with ma and pa here, and the fact that his susanoo is not tanking narutos firepower at all



 True, Ma and Pa is a pretty hefty advantage, but takes time to summon them. I believe Jiraiya was the only one shown to really be able to summon Ma and Pa.

 And Naruto's FRS has it's limitations of only being able to use 2 as well as the fact that it takes a while to use SM again afterwards and that can easily be countered by FRS. There's really nothing Naruto can do against Susanoo w/o Ma and Pa or FRS.


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## sabre320 (Jan 14, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Considering even Kaguya got fooled by a clone
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lets be honest mate against pre biju sussano sasuke naruto was holding back he stopped ps sword with one tail for gods sake....

kURAMA pretty much stated that naruto was not fresh and spent against bijusussano and could lose because of it even with that naruto stalemated and gained conciouseness first...kishi made it abundantly clear a full power naruto is superior...

sm naruto=ms sasuke
war arc sm naruto>>ms sasuke
kcm naruto >pre ps ems sasuke
bm naruto>ems sasuke
bsm naruto>>ems sasuke
unrestricted god naruto>> god mode sasuke
Unrestricted god naruto>bijuu god sasuke be it a slight edge


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## StarWanderer (Jan 14, 2015)

Naruto wins. The only problem there will be is Amaterasu.


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## sabre320 (Jan 14, 2015)

holy shit forgot ma and pa are here they jump on his shoulders lol frog call renders sasuke defenseless


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## ARGUS (Jan 14, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> He would have to start doing this _after_ the charge has begun, and finish _before_ it's complete. Amaterasu's buildup isn't that slow. Unless Naruto intends to stay hidden within the smoke forever and not fight, Sasuke will get a clear line of sight.


Nagato managed to sense the built up for amaterasu well well before the technique was executed, and even managed to warn the jins about the jjutsu, 
narrutos SM sensing would help him sense the built up quick enough to allow him to throw the smoke bombs, which counters the jutsu just fine,  

everytime sasuke intends to use amaterasu, naruto can simply block his LoS, and waste his efforts, so he doesnt need to stay hidden all the time 



> That was a synchronized attack. Any normal difference in speed would have been adjusted, so it's is no more evidence of them having the same speed than Naruto and Sasuke running together is evidence of KCM Naruto and Sasuke having the same movement speed.


except the jutsus speed and properties were still exactly the same, and both of them clearly had the same speed which what enabled the two techniques to clash, 
that is more than enough evidence to claim that FRS = Susanoo Arrow in terms of speed, 

not to mention that your example isnt valid at all, when shinobis shunshin and walking speed are two clearly different thigns, 
so KCM narutos speed is still far superior to sasukes 



> He had no issue maintaining it for several minutes against Danzo, *and this fight will last at the very maximum 5.*


Why exactly is that? 
or maybe it does last at that long, when sasukes susanoo is breached and he gets killed 


> Even if Susano'o takes damage, it's not going to get breached and kill Sasuke in the same instant meaning it can just be reformed.


FRS breaches any susanoo bar V4 which sasuke would struggle to keep up  for even a second, 
and yes sasuke does get killed in the next move, when he gets slammed down by a rasengan, 

and the damage for susanoo does pile up, until a higher stage is activated, which unfortunately for sasuke isnt helping him here without going blind 


> Naruto's got a limited number of Rasenshuriken too.


2 is all that he needs 


> Kagutsuchi will simply be used to counter FRS anyway, so Susano'o is kind of a moot point here.


Nope, kagutsuchi is not doing much when smoke bombs can block his LoS allowing naruto to immediately fire an FRS at susanoos weak spot, as itll be too late for sasuke to do shit 

whats more is that sasuke needs to get the chakra ratios correct in-order to use the kagutsuchi to counter the FRS completely, otherwise FRS would still explode and cause damage 


> A given.
> 
> They have access to summons, but don't start with them here. Ma and Pa, take a significant amount of time to summon during which Naruto can't even fight, and probably the main reason why he never bothered once in canon. They're not going to a be a factor here. Not to mention a single glance can knock them out.


Ok, though naruto doesnt need the toads here
hoowever the toads are still a factor, especially when genjutsu can be broken through partner method quickly, and when frog call immobilises him and allows naruto to land a clean blow 



> He'll be camping in Susano'o, so CQC is about as likely a prospect as Sasuke trapping Naruto in genjutsu.


If the battle prolongs, susanoo clearly becomes out of the equation, 
not to mention that susanoo gets busted by an FRS, followed by sasuke getting imploded by a Chou Odama Rasengan (COR) 
thats literally all there is to it in this battle 



SoleAccord said:


> War Naruto and Pre-War Naruto are two different things here. This is the Sage Naruto that fought Pain, not the Sage Naruto that fought in the war.


Im well aware of that


> Naruto put work into training since that time. If this Naruto was War Sage Naruto, maybe I'd believe that, except that Naruto and Sasuke have no knowledge on those two attacks and Sasuke's draw is faster than Sage Naruto's own wind-up.


explain how


> A better idea is smoke bombs into FRS to prevent the Susano'o draw from being accurate,


Yep, that is a good idea since sasuke wont have the time to counter the FRS at all, before it lands and busts susanoo 


> as well as an immediate Amaterasu towards him. I'm accounting for lack of knowledge too, and Naruto didn't know much about the Mangekyo at this point in time other than avoid the eyes at all costs.


he knew about genjutsu and with SM on the agenda as weell as clones, genjutsu is out of the equation, 

as for amaterasu, clones alone reduce the probability of their occurrence, and the ability to sense its built up followed  by smoke bombs blocking his LoS is a perfect counter to the jutsu


> EDIT - And yes, Volatile Soul makes a good point. Collaboration techniques are meant to be used in unison or close succession, it would do no good to have one be faster than the other.


Nope, the speed of their jutsus was still the same, 
nothing suggests that the speed of susanoo arrow was drastically decresed for that collaboration that makes no sense at all 

their techniques collided and combined, because they had the same speed, its as simple as that

his example wasnt very relevant either, 


> But with my original point, that's not the Naruto we're talking about here, and not the one OP was either.


I was and Am still talking about pein arc SM naruto, 



> I disagree, and OP never stated they were already present, and Naruto ever actually tried to summon them into battle. They CAME with him to Konoha, as did the other summons.


yeah i didnt read the OP regarding ma and pa my bad



> If he draws faster than Naruto does, and I believe he will, 'tanking' won't matter. If Sasuke doesn't stop FRS mid-flight with his own arrow, I don't see why he won't release Susano'o in its highest form at that point


The use of smoke bombs therefore completely prevent him from firing an arrow mid flight, 

and the highest form that sasuke could achieve was V3 was most likely 
and a single FRS alone has the firepower to breach that, 
if he does manage to form a V4, itll still take heavy damage and the damage from susanoo still piles up, 
not to mention that sasuke went completely blind after using that, and coould barely maintain it for a second 



> and take flight with his hawk summon.


and how would the hawk summon be fast enough to evade FRS? 
how is a long range fight helping sasuke? 



> Naruto is strong, but he's not wasteful, and he's not drunk on power. Sage Mode still has its limits and Naruto, hungry for blood or not, is still going to respect what Sasuke can do as a rival and a friend. Sasuke, however, ICly doesn't give a shit. He's full of rage and doesn't care for anyone - if he can use Susano'o off the bat, he will, that's how he ran until EMS came.


this is the battledome, not a manga fight, 
here what we consider are feats, 
and why wont naruto show his big guns in-order to fight sasuke? 


> However, if OP suddenly claims that Ma and Pa are present (and they didn't), then this goes in Naruto's favor more. Naruto never summoned these two, and it even took Jiraiya quite some time to draw on them and he had years more time training as a Sage. If Naruto can summon Ma and Pa *and use a smoke bomb faster than Sasuke can draw on an arrow or light the area of summoning in Amaterasu flames*, then his odds are significantly greater.


@Bold - except he ability of sensing helps naruto do that quite easily 
the formation and prep of amaterasu is still time consuming, and its chakra built up would be quite evident for naruto, therefore allowing him to throw smoke bombs just in time, 

as for the arrows, they are evaded by SM naruto, he has already showed tthe reflexes and striking speed to be superior to third raikage who laughed at FRS (which travels the same speed as a  susanoo arrow) despite being blinded by tthe sun, 

or naruto can just block sasukes LoS again, with a smokee bomb to prevent the arrow from landing



> Until that time though, nah, Ma and Pa aren't just automatically there. If OP makes it so though, I'll concede here and switch my difficulty or hell, maybe even my vote entirely. I'm really interested in revoking my decision, I just want someone to convince me of how it's going to happen. It may not seem like it, but I CAN be reasoned with - show me the light. I don't even like this version of Sasuke that much, I'd love for him to lose, I just can't see it with these conditions.



 - Naruto has the firepower to bust susanoo, as once that happens, sasuke is done for
 - naruto has the sensing, clones and blocking of sasukes LoS to counter amaterasu
 - naruto has the speed to evade susanoo arrow and other means to counter it as well 
 - his clones sensing and intel also help him counter genjutsu, 

there isnt much that sasuke is doing here, so thats why he loses



> If you believe I voted for Sasuke out of some bias then I assure you I'm not. Should someone show me how Naruto can make this fight at least a High-Diff to Extreme, I will gladly change my verdict.


Relax, i never called you biased or a fanboy


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## ARGUS (Jan 14, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> No it's not. Danzo couldn't even use Izanagi at a far distance and had to resort to using Hashirama's Cells.


implying that Danzos speed and reflexes = SM narutos Lol 


> *There's also the fact that Susanoo Arrow's speed surpasses Amaterasu's which at close range,* even a V2 Raikage had to use Shunshin in order to dodge it.


Based on? 
 > susanoo arrow travels the same speed as FRS, 
 > deva path evades FRS a millisecond after he knocks doown narutos clones, 
 > naruto in SM has shown his shunshin to be superior to deva path, so he evades the susanoo arrow with ease, hell narutos reflexes and striking speed are also superior to third raikage, who laughed at the speed caliber of FRS (and susanoo arrow) 

Ay needed his V2 speed to counter amaterasu,, 
so its clear that Amaterasu >>> Susanoo arrow in terms of speed 


> SM Naruto will likely have to resort to close range tactics which will leave him vulnerable to Amaterasu eventually.


Nope, the ability to sense and block sasukes LoS helps him counter amaaterasu just fine, 
and with clones here, the probability of its occrrence is minimised even more, 

a close range batttle just enables him to land FRS and rasengans on sasuke more efficiently



> True, Ma and Pa is a pretty hefty advantage, but takes time to summon them. I believe Jiraiya was the only one shown to really be able to summon Ma and Pa.


Yeh,my bad on that 
didnt read OP properly regarding these 2 



> And Naruto's FRS has it's limitations of only being able to use 2 as well as the fact that it takes a while to use SM again afterwards and that can easily be countered by FRS.


2 properly landed FRS are all that he needs, 


> There's really nothing Naruto can do against Susanoo w/o Ma and Pa or FRS.


well, w/o ma and pa he  can still bust it with FRS rather easily, 
and w/o FRS, he may not have the means too breach V3 susanoo, but he can still outlast the higher susanoos rather easily and use large scale SM rasengans to eventually bust weaker susanoos and kill sasuke


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## Blu-ray (Jan 14, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Nagato managed to sense the built up for amaterasu well well before the technique was executed, and even managed to warn the jins about the jjutsu,
> narrutos SM sensing would help him sense the built up quick enough to allow him to throw the smoke bombs, which counters the jutsu just fine,
> 
> everytime sasuke intends to use amaterasu, naruto can simply block his LoS, and waste his efforts, so he doesnt need to stay hidden all the time



That buildup was later confirmed not to be Amaterasu, but Itachi triggering the crow. Nagato simply assumed it was. Both Sasuke and Itachi pulled Amaterasu nigh instantly in virtually every other instant it was used.



> except the jutsus speed and properties were still exactly the same, and both of them clearly had the same speed which what enabled the two techniques to clash,
> that is more than enough evidence to claim that FRS = Susanoo Arrow in terms of speed,
> 
> not to mention that your example isnt valid at all, when shinobis shunshin and walking speed are two clearly different thigns,
> so KCM narutos speed is still far superior to sasukes



They were the same, because they were adjusted to be the same. Even if one was faster, it would have been scaled back. The example is perfectly valid, as Naruto scaling back his speed by not moving at his max is exactly my point.



> Why exactly is that?
> or maybe it does last at that long, when sasukes susanoo is breached and he gets killed



SM lasts only 5 minutes, even shorter with his 2 Rasenshuriken limit, and Sasuke was spamming for more than 10 against Danzo. Naruto gets fried or skewered the instant SM ends, assuming he doesn't die while in it. If Naruto has clones prepped and Myobuku, then it's even easier cause Naruto will only have two clones on his side.



> FRS breaches any susanoo bar V4 which sasuke would struggle to keep up  for even a second,
> and yes sasuke does get killed in the next move, when he gets slammed down by a rasengan,



Sasuke doesn't need V4 to begin with, and breaching, if FRS can do that to begin with, will be pointless if Sasuke isn't killed in the same blow. He'll simply reform Susano'o.

Don't even know where the argument for the breach even comes from. FRS hasn't exactly breached any reputable defenses, to the point it's even believable it'd one shot Susano'o.



> and the damage for susanoo does pile up, until a higher stage is activated, which unfortunately for sasuke isnt helping him here without going blind



Sasuke was able to spam for the entire Danzo fight without eyesight issues. This fight will last only half of that. Sight isn't gonna be a issue.



> 2 is all that he needs
> 
> Nope, kagutsuchi is not doing much when smoke bombs can block his LoS allowing naruto to immediately fire an FRS at susanoos weak spot, as itll be too late for sasuke to do shit



Naruto doesn't know Susano'o's weakpoint nor will he be able to get it unless Susano'o is pinned as it was against Danzo, and Kagutsuchi needs no line of sight to begin with.



> whats more is that sasuke needs to get the chakra ratios correct in-order to use the kagutsuchi to counter the FRS completely, otherwise FRS would still explode and cause damage



No. He needs to get the ratios correct in order to perform a _combination_ not a counter. As soon as the undying flames catch on, FRS is simply be eaten up, making a mass of flames that Sasuke can control, and making it easy to prep a thunderstorm for Kirin.



> Ok, though naruto doesnt need the toads here
> hoowever the toads are still a factor, especially when genjutsu can be broken through partner method quickly, and when frog call immobilises him and allows naruto to land a clean blow



If they are knocked out by the genjutsu, there is nothing to break. And frog call? Is Naruto going to be running around for several minutes just to summon those two?



> If the battle prolongs, susanoo clearly becomes out of the equation,
> not to mention that susanoo gets busted by an FRS, followed by sasuke getting imploded by a Chou Odama Rasengan (COR)
> thats literally all there is to it in this battle



Yes. Not like Sasuke fought a prolonged battle against Danzo filled with spam or anything. Kagutsuchi renders FRS useless and ordinary Rasengan variants get blocked effortlessly.

As I said, breaching Susano'o will do shit, because unless Sasuke is killed in the same instant it breaks, he'll simply reform it good as new.


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## Trojan (Jan 14, 2015)

ATastyMuffin went full Pain with that huge untagged pic of his.


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## SoleAccord (Jan 14, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Im well aware of that



Okay, but this is not the Sage Naruto that fought in the War, so that side-by-side comparison you made which wasn't them fighting, but working together, is iffy at best. If Naruto didn't show it fighting Pain, I'm probably not going to consider it, same as Sasuke's Susano'o feats outside of the Danzo fight. It only seems fair. Naruto's windup is slow.



> explain how



Sasuke by the end of the Danzo fight could fully form Susan'o and launch an attack Danzo had to utilize those freakish Hashirama cells to deflect, and that's without including Kakashi being unable to do more than use Kamui to stay alive against it.  Unless Naruto had an amazing showing with Rasenshuriken during the Pain fight, I don't see how Naruto uses clones AND prepares Rasenshuriken before Sasuke, rooted in hatred, forms his Susano'o and launches an attack that his teacher and Danzo basically admitted they could not dodge. 

Even if you see an attack, it doesn't mean you have the reflexes or speed to dodge it. Now you can totally convince me Naruto can dodge it, I just need panels supporting the Naruto that fought Pain being able to avoid something hyped as that fast, faster than just about anything in Pain's arsenal other than Shinra Tensei really. If you can do that, I will accept Naruto dodging the arrow with ease, I want you to show me he has that potential. Even still, he has no knowledge of it, so it's a rocky road to me. 



> Yep, that is a good idea since sasuke wont have the time to counter the FRS at all, before it lands and busts susanoo



Yeah, and if I was arguing for Naruto I might make that case, but Naruto has almost no reason to do so without knowledge of Sasuke's Susano'o anyway. I don't believe he's even aware of Amaterasu by this point. He's just as blind as Sasuke in that smoke too - sensing offers him increased protection but it won't last long. I don't see what stops Sasuke from igniting the entire area in flames out of impatience to drag Naruto out. 



> he knew about genjutsu and with SM on the agenda as weell as clones, genjutsu is out of the equation,
> 
> as for amaterasu, clones alone reduce the probability of their occurrence, and the ability to sense its built up followed  by smoke bombs blocking his LoS is a perfect counter to the jutsu



He can know about it, but is he going to be fast enough to free a clone or himself out of it before Sasuke launches an arrow or burns him? I don't think Sasuke's using it without Naruto coming in close anyway, I think Amaterasu and Susano'o kill him long before that time.



> Nope, the speed of their jutsus was still the same,
> nothing suggests that the speed of susanoo arrow was drastically decresed for that collaboration that makes no sense at all
> 
> their techniques collided and combined, because they had the same speed, its as simple as that
> ...



From where I'm looking, Sasuke delayed his shot to allow for that technique to collide as it did. He was aiming more for Rasenshuriken than he was the Juubi, which I think was implied by the top left and bottom left panel which would explain the delay. Even then, they deliberately worked together for this attack and matched their chakras to work well with one another. There's no real need for that here as they're enemies, and besides that it was KCM Naruto who threw it, not Sage Naruto. 

A combination of a different variant of Naruto and a different point in time from the OP's requested era won't lead me to agree with this. Sage Naruto shuriken's only please, and at the appropriate timeline. 



> I was and Am still talking about pein arc SM naruto,



No more pictures from the war then please.




> yeah i didnt read the OP regarding ma and pa my bad







> The use of smoke bombs therefore completely prevent him from firing an arrow mid flight,
> 
> and the highest form that sasuke could achieve was V3 was most likely
> and a single FRS alone has the firepower to breach that,
> ...



Naruto needs knowledge to use those smoke bombs, otherwise he's just using them. He has no knowledge of Sasuke's Susano'o here, and that was a huge hit to him. Naruto needs to use two clones and form FRS to launch his attack, Sasuke doesn't need to wait for that. My deal here isn't Sasuke tanking it, it's Naruto's inability to get it off. If he launches it from a cloud of smoke, Sasuke can shoot at it with an arrow and stop it midflight if he wanted to, which may even result in Naruto getting caught in the AoE. You are arguing that Naruto's FRS will destroy it - my case was never about that, it was about Sasuke preventing it from even coming close to him.

This battlefield, with this knowledge, and these conditions do not allow me to really believe that Naruto is landing it. 




> and how would the hawk summon be fast enough to evade FRS?
> how is a long range fight helping sasuke?



Naruto can't change trajectory of the jutsu mid flight, can he? I'm saying Sasuke could opt to take off into the air with significantly less chakra demanded from him, while Naruto wasted a jutsu he has a limited number on. He has no problems coming back down after the jutsu is wasted, it's to save his skin. Sasuke in flight is far more dangerous than Naruto and Naruto has nothing he can do against him up there except boss summons or worse, a risky Rasenshuriken. I'm not implying he's going to be up there the entire time.




> this is the battledome, not a manga fight,
> here what we consider are feats,
> and why wont naruto show his big guns in-order to fight sasuke?



Unless the mindset is bloodlusted I assume both characters have an IC amount of respect for one another if manga supports them as careful fighters. It would be different without knowledge, but Naruto is more careful at this point in time than he is stupid. If he doesn't respect Sasuke, but he does, he'll be worse for wear. It would be like Kakashi v.s. Gai, Kakashi respects Gai and won't take him lightly, so his IC tactics may reflect that as would Gai's. That's just how I do it personally.



> @Bold - except he ability of sensing helps naruto do that quite easily
> the formation and prep of amaterasu is still time consuming, and its chakra built up would be quite evident for naruto, therefore allowing him to throw smoke bombs just in time,
> 
> as for the arrows, they are evaded by SM naruto, he has already showed tthe reflexes and striking speed to be superior to third raikage who laughed at FRS (which travels the same speed as a  susanoo arrow) despite being blinded by tthe sun,
> ...



War Sage Naruto who had KCM training, not the Sage Naruto that went against Pain fresh after Sage Training. Again, if this was the War Sage Naruto I wouldn't refute that, but at this point in time those feats don't even exist. Pain and Danzo was their best showings at the point the OP requested, which is why I'm trying not to bring up anything from the war because they changed when both entered it. 

Naruto has one set of smoke bombs and everything depends on landing a shot from there. I believe smoke bombs are an invaluable tool, but they don't last forever. Sasuke's impatience would likely lead him to using Amaterasu in the entire area that's shrouded. Naruto can sense it, but if Sasuke's forceful he'll have to abandon the shroud.

Naruto's got few LOS opportunities here, those bombs are really his only option and Sasuke can counter that. He doesn't need to see, just needs to know the general area of where he's hiding and unleash the flames. 




> - Naruto has the firepower to bust susanoo, as once that happens, sasuke is done for
> - naruto has the sensing, clones and blocking of sasukes LoS to counter amaterasu
> - naruto has the speed to evade susanoo arrow and other means to counter it as well
> - his clones sensing and intel also help him counter genjutsu,
> ...



-Naruto needs to land them, so far I'm unconvinced he's getting anything off. If Naruto had knowledge and this was a different playing field I'd be more prone to crediting his tactical abilities, but as the match is, no. Amaterasu and Susano'o both > Naruto's FRS preparation and launching / smoke bomb usage. Tactics matter, and in this environment Naruto has nothing going for him, especially with a five minute time limit. 
-Sasuke has the environmental advantage and is quicker on using all his strength than Naruto would be to muster his own. Blocking LOS with one smoke bomb does not equal defeat. Naruto's frog kata and boss summons are made irrelevant here as well.
-He doesn't know about Susano'o and likely nothing on Amaterasu either. Speed to avoid something may not matter if you didn't know about it. As I said, link me some Sage Naruto evasion feats that could be comparable to Sasuke's arrow that two seasoned shinobi and war veterans had to use two risky moves to avoid. Yes they're not sages, but they're still incredible opponents in their own right.
-If a clone isn't set aflame, yes, but if Naruto has no shadow clone around him then it's useless to try and regardless it will distract Naruto and force him to avoid looking Sasuke in the eyes this entire battle. That's a strong advantage to have.

The environment and conditions of the match disagree, as do I. If Naruto had knowledge, maybe he'd have a chance, but Sasuke counters his summons and Naruto getting close enough to try Frog Kata lacks a good stance. Not to mention Hawk Summon for a swift escape if he chooses. 




> Relax, i never called you biased or a fanboy


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## sabre320 (Jan 14, 2015)

does naruto start with ma and pa cuz if not naruto takes it but its a very high diff fight


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## kingcools (Jan 14, 2015)

once susanno comes out naruto digs himself in and travels underground. Sage sensing allows for blind recognition. Sasuke cannot touch him.

Easy win for naruto.


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## kingcools (Jan 14, 2015)

honestly, naruto digs himself into the ground, summons ma and pa, they prep frog song, when they are ready he returns to the surface.
Sasuke has no answer to this.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 14, 2015)

Portrayal wise Naruto and Sasuke with fully mastered SM and MS respectively should be equal.

However, Sasuke's MS goes blind incredibly fast. I dunno if it was mostly for plot reasons so that he could acquire EMS just as Naruto was getting his own superior power up(KCM) but if we ignore plot reason and focus on straight facts Sasuke's MS goes blind rather fast.

Sasuke's MS might need either the bow Susanoo version(V3) or final Susanoo which was similar to Itachi's. It is hard to make sure as we never got a proper performance from Sasuke's final Susanoo both when it came to his MS version and his EMS one.

Assuming that Sasuke starts with final Susanoo his eyes are quite weakened and his combat performance decreases rapidly.

To make this fight more fair it would be to give him at least full mastery of V3 Susanoo and make his eyes capable of lasting at least a few hours.

Then it all comes if SM Naruto can dodge Amaterasu as it does not necessarily makes him as fast as V2 Raikage or his KCM self. He might try to use clones to deal with that but then Sasuke might be cautious with spamming it and focus on firing extremely fast arrows that even if Naruto can dodge he still needs to fully focus on them to stand a chance leaving an opening for other attacks(like Amaterasu).

However, Sasuke does not only have to concern himself with blindness but also with the pain that accompanies Susanoo when used by MS users and his relatively low chakra capacity to spam those jutsus. Granted he fought 5 kages and their jounin level bodyguards on one day plus a short skirmish with Naruto and Kakashi but still he cannot spam this stuff like his EMS self without repercussions.

On the other hand, Naruto can only stay in SM for so long and can only use 2 FRS before running out of "fuel". Since Deva on a few occasions was capable of dodging FRS it is likely that Sasuke can dodge them too. Though he needs to be careful when Naruto tries to expand the jutsu as he defeated Human path like that.

At that point Naruto does not have genjutsu defenses either and can only use 3 bunshins if he wants to gather SM chakra without staying still which makes putting him under genjutsu even easier. Gamabunte can fall victim to that too as Sasuke easily managed to do so to the similarly powerful Manda. While hiding in Susanoo, Sasuke can also calmly focus on using Kirin and even if Naruto manages to react to its speed and blocks it with FRS he will at least waste half of his SM chakra or leave and opening to be Amaterasu'd.

Sasuke can't let the fight drag though as his eyesight will only get worse and his chakra reserves will get dry fast if he spams that stuff crazily like he did against Danzou.

It will be more like a chess match with both opponents having to calmly and cautiously look for openings rather than force their way through mere brute force.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 14, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> implying that Danzos speed and reflexes = SM narutos Lol



 That means at close range, SM Naruto isn't dodging it. I apologize if I didn't make that clear.



> Based on?
> > susanoo arrow travels the same speed as FRS,
> > deva path evades FRS a millisecond after he knocks doown narutos clones,
> > naruto in SM has shown his shunshin to be superior to deva path, so he evades the susanoo arrow with ease, hell narutos reflexes and striking speed are also superior to third raikage, who laughed at the speed caliber of FRS (and susanoo arrow)



 If Amaterasu was as fast as FRS, he would've used it instead of Susanoo Arrow. All Sasuke wanted to do was burn the Juubi which was clear with his comment afterwards as well as using  the FRS to boost his flames in the first place. Susanoo Arrow is clearly faster. Hebi Sasuke managed to outrun Amaterasu for a few seconds, Danzo who has better speed and reflexes than Hebi Sasuke couldn't even make a hand seal and had to resort to using Hashirama's cells from a far range. Susanoo Arrow is faster.

 Those Naruto clones were reverted to Base the instant before Deva Path took them out. SM Naruto ain't avoiding Susanoo Arrow if V2 Raikage had to use Shunshin to avoid Amaterasu.

 This is Pain Arc/ Kage Summit SM Naruto, not War Arc SM Naruto who's speed is definitely at V2 Raikage level and reflexes certainly above that. But his shunshin hasn't really been displayed against Pain from what I can remember.



> Ay needed his V2 speed to counter amaterasu,,
> so its clear that Amaterasu >>> Susanoo arrow in terms of speed



 When Hebi Sasuke can outrun Amaterasu for a few seconds? 

 V2 Raikage used Shunshin, not his actual speed to dodge it. I would like to see a Viz translation if possible to confirm it though.



> Nope, the ability to sense and block sasukes LoS helps him counter amaaterasu just fine,
> and with clones here, the probability of its occrrence is minimised even more,



 Doesn't matter, he's not as good of a sensor as SM Kabuto and SM Kabuto is the only sage shown with that kind of speed to dodge Susanoo Arrow. SM Naruto (Pain Arc/Kage Summit Arc) doesn't compare. 



> a close range batttle just enables him to land FRS and rasengans on sasuke more efficiently



 Even though Sasuke can detect build up in chakra as well?




> Yeh,my bad on that
> didnt read OP properly regarding these 2



 Naw, you're good.




> 2 properly landed FRS are all that he needs,



 Maybe, but he can still use Enton which is fast enough to react to V2 Raikage's Shunshin in a split second. Shadow Shuriken might dupe Sasuke ... Maybe .....



> well, w/o ma and pa he  can still bust it with FRS rather easily,
> and w/o FRS, he may not have the means too breach V3 susanoo, but he can still outlast the higher susanoos rather easily and use large scale SM rasengans to eventually bust weaker susanoos and kill sasuke



 I agree, he can bust V3 Susanoo w/ FRS fairly easily, but the problem is that he can use Enton and quickly reform Susanoo if need be. If Naruto phucks up, that's it, he's only got 1 FRS left and has to be very careful.

 As for outlasting with the SM clones, not probable. Sasuke can use Amaterasu at close range to kill off the clones and even use V4 Susanoo with Amaterasu orb to get the job done. The only reason he went blind was obviously from using the MS against Bee, A, and then Danzo which took its toll. If he was fresh, he'd clearly be able to use it for a while if need be.


----------



## kingcools (Jan 14, 2015)

kingcools said:


> honestly, naruto digs himself into the ground, summons ma and pa, they prep frog song, when they are ready he returns to the surface.
> Sasuke has no answer to this.



how does he beat that strat? I really wanna know


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 14, 2015)

kingcools said:


> how does he beat that strat? I really wanna know



 SM Naruto can't do that.


----------



## sabre320 (Jan 15, 2015)

kingcools said:


> how does he beat that strat? I really wanna know



naruto does not know doton mate,....


----------



## SusanooKakashiCanon (Jan 15, 2015)

How does Naruto survives Kirin?


----------



## Bonly (Jan 15, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> naruto does not know doton mate,....



Didn't stop Naruto from digging underground to punch Neji during their Chunin Exam fight mate


----------



## kingcools (Jan 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> SM Naruto can't do that.



Link removed

of course he can. 

Naruto wins this with the strategy i proposed easily. 

Naruto 9/10 low/mid diff at best


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 15, 2015)

kingcools said:


> hitting Kakashi
> 
> of course he can.
> 
> ...



hitting Kakashi

 Of course he can't.

 The explosion literally blew a hole and he had to dig his way through. He was given that opportunity because Neji was rekt hard and struggled to get up. He was coughing pretty badly which gave Naruto a chance to dig a tunnel in the first place. Without doton, how would he do it efficiently? A punch from SM Naruto would punch a large hole through the ground which would make what he's doing very predictable and a sitting duck. It's not working when Sasuke has Amaterasu and Susanoo Arrow on his side. He'll just Amaterasu through the hole the instant he does decide to dig that tunnel.


----------



## kingcools (Jan 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> hitting Kakashi
> 
> Of course he can't.
> 
> The explosion literally blew a hole and he had to dig his way through.


So you agree he can actually dig.



> A punch from SM Naruto would punch a large hole through the ground which would make what he's doing very predictable and a sitting duck.


no, its not obvious. How is it obvious? you see a guy sneaking underground, no info about what he is trying to do. Intuitively i would assume he is trying to get you from right underneath your own position and attack from underground.



> It's not working when Sasuke has Amaterasu and Susanoo Arrow on his side. He'll just Amaterasu through the hole the instant he does decide to dig that tunnel.



how? sasuke cannot look underground. Even if he could, naruto can just close the hole again, making it impenetrable.


----------



## ARGUS (Jan 16, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> That buildup was later confirmed not to be Amaterasu, but Itachi triggering the crow. Nagato simply assumed it was.


Thats not the point, 
the point is that sensors have already showed the ability to sense the chakra built up of jutsus, which in narutos case here, allows him the time to act prior to the flame spawn, 
thus he uses the smoke bomb to block Sasukes LoS before the flames are even executed 



> Both Sasuke and Itachi pulled Amaterasu nigh instantly in virtually every other instant it was used.


No they didnt, 
amaterasu stil has a quite a long chakra built up, and requires alot of focus before the flames are spawned,
not to mention that its symptoms are well aparrent, and forr a sensor like naruto, this is not a prooblem at all, jjust how it wasnt a problem for even DSM kabuto



> They were the same, because they were adjusted to be the same. Even if one was faster, it would have been scaled back. The example is perfectly valid, as Naruto scaling back his speed by not moving at his max is exactly my point.


No, 
the properties of the jutsu itself werent adjusted,  
the susanoo arrow itself was still been the same jutsu, and so was FRS, 
not to mention that *FRS itself travelled multiple mountain ranges worth of distance within a second*
that alone should be a clear indication that FRS is incredibly fast, and claiming that its the same speed as the susanoo arrow, which was shown in the manga, is nothing but the truth 

and your example is incorrect since Jutsu =/= Shinobi, 
any shinobi has the ability to move at different speeds, be it just walking or using their top shunshin, 
naruto and sasuke werent even using their shunshin in your example, so its clearly not a valid example of refuting that my claim of FRS = Susano Arrow in speed



> SM lasts only 5 minutes, even shorter with his 2 Rasenshuriken limit, and Sasuke was spamming for more than 10 against Danzo.


One FRS bypasses all of Sasukes susanoo here, 
and the next move ends with Sasuke dead, 
whats the point of the 5min limit for SM when naruto can finish sasuke off even before that, and when naruto can still re enter SM through summons or clones acting as diversions just makes the time limit excuse a bad argument 



> Naruto gets fried or skewered the instant SM ends, assuming he doesn't die while in it.


Lol, as explained amaterasu is not doing shit here, and Lol at naruto dying here, 
there is literally nothing that sasuke could do to kill him especially when hes in SM, 
while on the contrary, 2 FRS are all that naruto needs to kill him 



> Sasuke doesn't need V4 to begin with, and breaching, if FRS can do that to begin with, will be pointless if Sasuke isn't killed in the same blow. He'll simply reform Susano'o.


Sasuke isnt reforming susanoo
when susanoo is busted, it becomes inaccessible unless its repaired to a higher version in which case, sasuke cant use,
so once Sasukes V3 is busted, the next moves from naruto ends up killing him  


> Don't even know where the argument for the breach even comes from. FRS hasn't exactly breached any reputable defenses, to the point it's even believable it'd one shot Susano'o.


Nope, it breaches V3 susanoo just fine, 
when *Hirudora obliterated  Madaras V3 susanoo,* and pushed him back to an extent *where his control over the mokuryu was completely gone, *

FRS alone has showed tthe , 
and based on feats, iits comparable to hirudora, (if not even stronger) thanks to the senjutsu boost here, 
so with that being said FRS busts any V3 susanoo just fine,

whats even worse is  that , 
and FRS >>>>>>> Danzos fuuton
so V3 gets vaporised completely 



> Sasuke was able to spam for the entire Danzo fight without eyesight issues. This fight will last only half of that. Sight isn't gonna be a issue.


Spam what? what good is that doing him? 

Amaterasu?  its dealt with just fine

Susanoo Arrow?  is dealth with just like amaterasu or simply evaded, 

Susanoo? he needs to keep it active non stop, unlike danzos fight where he clearly didnt have it on him for over 50% of the fight,
and *when even using ribcage was hurting every cell in his body*, 
whats worse is that it gets busted here, and he gets defenseless, 

Genjutsu? is dealt with just fine, 

this battle is not coming to attrition, when everything that sasuke throws gets countered, whilst its not the other way around, so ur point here isnt really relevant  




> Naruto doesn't know Susano'o's weakpoint nor will he be able to get it unless Susano'o is pinned as it was against Danzo, and Kagutsuchi needs no line of sight to begin with.


Kagutsuchi is evaded though, its not doing shit here, apart from maybe take down some clones
and naruto doesnt need to know the susanoos weakpoint either, when he has the means to bust it open just like  that,



> No. He needs to get the ratios correct in order to perform a _combination_ not a counter. As soon as the undying flames catch on, FRS is simply be eaten up, making a mass of flames that Sasuke can control, and making it easy to prep a thunderstorm for Kirin.


except, naruto can already make sasuke go for the decoy through transformation, and slam it towards the back of susanoo 
smoke bombs blocking his LoS also make it easier for naruto to land his blows, 




> Yes. Not like Sasuke fought a prolonged battle against Danzo filled with spam or anything. Kagutsuchi renders FRS useless


If there isnt enough kagutsuchi, then FRS isnt rendered useless, 
and the rest has already been addressed above



> and ordinary Rasengan variants get blocked effortlessly.


Nope, 
a * base Chou Oodama Rasengan was drilling ribcage susanoo upon mere contact, *
as madara had to use V3 susanoo in-order to push naruto away, clearly indicating that ribcage wouldnt have been enough, 
so had the rasengan exploded, then ribcage wouldve been busted  

now with the senjutsu boost and the fact that *naruto in SM can form multiple of them* wiith ease, means that nothing short of V3 would suffice

so FRS isnt the only thing either 



> As I said, breaching Susano'o will do shit, because unless Sasuke is killed in the same instant it breaks, he'll simply reform it good as new.


Nope, susanoo becomes in accessible for quite a while once it gets breached, 
unless its activated to a higher level, which is obviously not the case here, 
so sasuke isn not foming another susanoo, 
nor is naruto just standing there and not killing sasuke when hes defenseless


----------



## ARGUS (Jan 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That means at close range, SM Naruto isn't dodging it. I apologize if I didn't make that clear.


He doesnt need to dodge when he can prevent sasuke from fiiring it  at him in the first place



> If Amaterasu was as fast as FRS, he would've used it instead of Susanoo Arrow. all Sasuke wanted to do was burn the Juubi which was clear with his comment afterwards as well as using  the FRS to boost his flames in the first place.


amaterasu alone is nowhere near as ample as a combination of enton arrow and COFRS, 
so why use something thats far inferior, 


> Susanoo Arrow is clearly faster.


No its not, 
amaterasu is was evaded by V2 Ay, which the sharingan precog cant precieve,  yet Susanoo Arrow was already precieved by the sharingan and outright evaded by DSM Kabuto who is slower than V2 Ay, 

so yeah amatearsu is alot faster, 



> Hebi Sasuke managed to outrun Amaterasu for a few seconds


yet he still got hit, so he wasnt fast  enough 



> , Danzo who has better speed and reflexes than Hebi Sasuke


Based on what? 



> couldn't even make a hand seal and had to resort to using Hashirama's cells from a far range. Susanoo Arrow is faster.


No its not, 
amaterasu warps nigh instantly upon the users LoS whilst susanoo arrow doesnt 
SM narutos reactions and speed >>>>>>>>> Danzos 
so danzo struggling against it doesnt mean that naruto would 
especially when naruto had already proved his reflexes to be above third raikage 
who eveaded FRS (which is the same speed as a susanoo arrow) with utmost ease 



> Those Naruto clones were reverted to Base the instant before Deva Path took them out. SM Naruto ain't avoiding Susanoo Arrow if V2 Raikage had to use Shunshin to avoid Amaterasu.


Amaterasu >>>> Susanoo arrow in terms of speed, as i have already addressed, 
and naruto also evades them when Deva has showed the speed to evade something that travels the exact same speed  as the arrow, 
and SM naruto > Deva interms of sppeed and reflexes 



> This is Pain Arc/ Kage Summit SM Naruto, not War Arc SM Naruto who's speed is definitely at V2 Raikage level and reflexes certainly above that.


Lol no, 
War Arc SM naruto was sstill nigh blitzd by Blind Madara, who is in no way faster than V2 Ay, 
naruto isnt reacting to V2 Ay, let alone be faster or more reflexive than him 



> But his shunshin hasn't really been displayed against Pain from what I can remember.


He blitzed asura path from a distance that was well over 20m,  tthats pretty impressive, 
this is the same path that nigh blitzed SM jiraiya who is another SM user



> When Hebi Sasuke can outrun Amaterasu for a few seconds?


Except he barely outran, 
whts worse is that ittachi wasnt even trying to kill him, and only aimed for his wings 


> V2 Raikage used Shunshin, not his actual speed to dodge it. I would like to see a Viz translation if possible to confirm it though.


Shunshin = Fast Movement Speed, so its still his speed, 



> Doesn't matter, he's not as good of a sensor as SM Kabuto and SM Kabuto is the only sage shown with that kind of speed to dodge Susanoo Arrow. SM Naruto (Pain Arc/Kage Summit Arc) doesn't compare.


Prove it, 
not to mention that naruto doesnt need to be above kabuto to evade the arrow, 
when naruto has already proven himself to be more reflexive than someone who travels faster than it 



> Even though Sasuke can detect build up in chakra as well?


Point? 



> Naw, you're good.
> 
> Maybe, but he can still use Enton which is fast enough to react to V2 Raikage's Shunshin in a split second. Shadow Shuriken might dupe Sasuke ... Maybe .....


Enton itself was activated the moment sasuke realises he needed a shield that cant be touched,
sasuke himself had no way whatsoever to react or keep up with Ay the moment he turned to V2, and got outright blitzed by him,  

and yeah shadow shurikens are very impressive as decoys here, allowwing naruto to slam it from the back of sasuke



> I agree, he can bust V3 Susanoo w/ FRS fairly easily, but the problem is that he can use Enton and quickly reform Susanoo if need be. If Naruto phucks up, that's it, he's only got 1 FRS left and has to be very careful.


Reforming susanoo isnt happening that quickly, as once the susanoo is bustted, it becomes inaccessible for quite a long period of time, 
unless its activated to a higher level which isnt the case for sasuke here, 
so sasuke is practically left defenseless for a brief amount of time, alllowing naruto to finish him off 

and naruto can still re enter SM through the use of clones and toads acting as diversions 



> As for outlasting with the SM clones, not probable. Sasuke can use Amaterasu at close range to kill off the clones


Ok, but if the clones are in SM, they can still sense it and block his LoS to counter the jutsu, 
coming close range without susanoo, would result in him getting pulverised by frog katas 



> and even use V4 Susanoo with Amaterasu orb to get the job done.


Sasuke in his MS form barely managed to manifest it, and ended up blind the second later, 
he is not using it here 
so sasuke being able to do what you said above is fanfic 



> The only reason he went blind was obviously from using the MS against Bee, A, and then Danzo which took its toll. If he was fresh, he'd clearly be able to use it for a while if need be.


No he wont, 
Itachi was using his V4 susanoo whilst blind and without even his MS activated

whereas in sasukes case, he wasnt able to use V4, so hes not getting it here, 
and even if he manifests it, it wont be longer than  a few seconds till it drops down


----------



## Tarot (Jan 16, 2015)

Didn't Naruto already confirm that they would both die? ie, they were equal


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## kingcools (Jan 16, 2015)

of course he lied.
He would easily win with the tactics i proposed earlier.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 17, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> He doesnt need to dodge when he can prevent sasuke from fiiring it  at him in the first place



 How, he's not fast enough to react to it if Danzo can't even form hand seals from a far distance? Well, unless SM Naruto is faster than V2 Raikage which isn't the case.




> amaterasu alone is nowhere near as ample as a combination of enton arrow and COFRS,
> so why use something thats far inferior,



 My point is, he only cared about the Enton, not the actual piercing power of the Susanoo Arrow yet he still used Susanoo Arrow which indicates higher speed. 



> No its not,
> amaterasu is was evaded by V2 Ay, which the sharingan precog cant precieve,  yet Susanoo Arrow was already precieved by the sharingan and outright evaded by DSM Kabuto who is slower than V2 Ay,



 When was it perceived by the Sharingan?

 But SM Kabuto has superior sage sensing compared to SM Naruto. Suddenly sage sensing doesn't matter when you made that argument before for SM Naruto? Doesn't even matter, SM Kabuto was from a farther distance than V2 Raikage, so that doesn't really indicate much. However, Amaterasu from a farther range was outran by Hebi Sasuke for a few seconds while Danzo can't even react to the Arrow. 



> so yeah amatearsu is alot faster,



 Activation time, definitely, but in terms of actual speed, no.




> yet he still got hit, so he wasnt fast  enough



 But he could actually react and see it coming. Danzo couldn't with the Arrow.




> Based on what?



 He grabbed Taka Sasuke who has superior reflexes and speed than Hebi Sasuke.




> No its not,
> amaterasu warps nigh instantly upon the users LoS whilst susanoo arrow doesnt
> SM narutos reactions and speed >>>>>>>>> Danzos
> so danzo struggling against it doesnt mean that naruto would
> ...



 Amaterasu isn't instant. Is it activated instantaneously? Yes. Does it move instantaneously? No. The weakest one  who can literally react to that kind of speed and actually see it coming is probably Juubidara. If Hebi Sasuke can actually perceive Amaterasu and outrun it for a few seconds, it's obviously not instantaneous.




> Amaterasu >>>> Susanoo arrow in terms of speed, as i have already addressed,
> and naruto also evades them when Deva has showed the speed to evade something that travels the exact same speed  as the arrow,
> and SM naruto > Deva interms of sppeed and reflexes



 You haven't addressed anything.

 Deva Path didn't move as fast as FRS, so it's meaningless to say SM Naruto > Deva as that gives us no indication of whether SM Naruto can move as fast as that jutsu.

 FRS isn't as fast the Arrow and even if it was, KCM Naruto threw that FRS with his chakra arms which is obviously going to be a lot faster than the FRS SM Naruto threw at this point in time. More power = greater throwing speed.




> Lol no,
> War Arc SM naruto was sstill nigh blitzd by Blind Madara, who is in no way faster than V2 Ay,
> naruto isnt reacting to V2 Ay, let alone be faster or more reflexive than him



 Except StarWanderer can prove otherwise.




> He blitzed asura path from a distance that was well over 20m,  tthats pretty impressive,
> this is the same path that nigh blitzed SM jiraiya who is another SM user



 That is impressive, but still doesn't indicate that he can dodge the Arrow, esp. at close range.




> Except he barely outran,
> whts worse is that ittachi wasnt even trying to kill him, and only aimed for his wings



 He barely outran, but at least he could react. Danzo, however, could not. Doesn't even matter. Itachi was clearly trying to aim it at Sasuke, regardless if it was trying to hit the wings or not. He wanted to push Sasuke to his limits, so obviously, he would try to actually hit him.



> Shunshin = Fast Movement Speed, so its still his speed,



 Mmmm, good point.




> Prove it,
> not to mention that naruto doesnt need to be above kabuto to evade the arrow,
> when naruto has already proven himself to be more reflexive than someone who travels faster than it



 Pain doesn't move as fast as FRS though. That's more in terms of reaction speed. Even with Deva Path being the only Path left, he still barely dodged FRS.




> Point?



 Meaning he can react to and use Enton to counter FRS easily. 




> Enton itself was activated the moment sasuke realises he needed a shield that cant be touched,
> sasuke himself had no way whatsoever to react or keep up with Ay the moment he turned to V2, and got outright blitzed by him,



 Yes, and in that split second, he managed to pull off Enton despite being blitzed which activates instant activation time. FRS doesn't have instant activation time.



> and yeah shadow shurikens are very impressive as decoys here, allowwing naruto to slam it from the back of sasuke



 If he can get behind Sasuke. Even then, he can just Amaterasu twice if it does happen considering he uses it the way he did against Pain which was just a Shadow Shuriken with a Rasenshuriken coming right after it. With that, Sasuke easily reacts with Enton and Naruto loses his SM which is game over. Naruto has to overcome a greater risk of using FRS than Sasuke does with his Amaterasu which we all know he pretty much spams along with Susanoo.




> Reforming susanoo isnt happening that quickly, as once the susanoo is bustted, it becomes inaccessible for quite a long period of time,
> unless its activated to a higher level which isnt the case for sasuke here,
> so sasuke is practically left defenseless for a brief amount of time, alllowing naruto to finish him off



 That's true, however, if he can Katon Baku and then react quick enough to hit Danzo before he can even make a seal, I don't see him being so easily defeated by an FRS and the possibility that SM Naruto does attack from the rear end.



> and naruto can still re enter SM through the use of clones and toads acting as diversions



 Yet it takes time to re-enter SM as well as the fact that toad summons are technically restricted. Even then, Amaterasu spam my dear friend.




> Ok, but if the clones are in SM, they can still sense it and block his LoS to counter the jutsu,
> coming close range without susanoo, would result in him getting pulverised by frog katas



 Confused, what does LoS stand for?

 Yeah, I don't deny that Sasuke gets wrecked in CQC.




> Sasuke in his MS form barely managed to manifest it, and ended up blind the second later,
> he is not using it here
> so sasuke being able to do what you said above is fanfic



 Look at the next response.




> No he wont,
> Itachi was using his V4 susanoo whilst blind and without even his MS activated



 Okay, I concede to this.




> whereas in sasukes case, he wasnt able to use V4, so hes not getting it here,
> and even if he manifests it, it wont be longer than  a few seconds till it drops down



 I concede to this, but I still say both of them have a chance high difficulty. I'm just arguing for Sasuke.


----------



## kingcools (Jan 17, 2015)

kingcools said:


> honestly, naruto digs himself into the ground, summons ma and pa, they prep frog song, when they are ready he returns to the surface.
> Sasuke has no answer to this.



as nobody is countering my strat i guess naruto wins.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 17, 2015)

kingcools said:


> as nobody is countering my strat i guess naruto wins.



 Except it doesn't work and we don't know if he can even summon Ma and Pa on his own.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jan 17, 2015)

Creating specific strategies for your character to win in a match-up based thread is honestly a pretty poor way of debating, anyway.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 17, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Creating specific strategies for your character to win in a match-up based thread is honestly a pretty poor way of debating, anyway.



Sadly, mostly that how they go either creating a strategy where character X would do it exactly, and character Y would fall for it no matter what. Or comparing character Y who has something in common with character Z, and although their fighting style is completely different, they assume that character Y would fight exactly as Z who lost to character X. Therefore, Y would lose the exact same way. That's, or the other way around. 

Which is also a reason to why some characters in those sections became way higher than how they really are, or way weaker than how they really are. In addition,
to the other reason which is "feats only" which also bring most of the characters some tiers down than their actual level because of either the short amount of panel time, off-paneled feats, or some circumstances during a specific fight.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 17, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Creating specific strategies for your character to win in a match-up based thread is honestly a pretty poor way of debating, anyway.



 Sorry if I may have been doing this. I admitted either can win high difficulty, but I'm just debating for Sasuke considering a lot of people in the past would think SM Naruto would rape.


----------



## kingcools (Jan 17, 2015)

> Except it doesn't work


He showed every skill needed to perform it. So yes, it works.



NarutoX28 said:


> and we don't know if he can even summon Ma and Pa on his own.



He showed no problem in summoning any other frog. If jiraiya can summon them, so can naruto.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 17, 2015)

kingcools said:


> He showed every skill needed to perform it. So yes, it works.



 Not very efficiently or Kakashi wouldn't ever use Doton and waste chakra like that.





> He showed no problem in summoning any other frog. If jiraiya can summon them, so can naruto.



Ma and Pa rank immediately under the Great Toad Sage. The other frogs don't even compare.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 17, 2015)

It's laughable how people still are going on about this argument of a summoner can't summon his/her animals so to speak.


----------



## ARGUS (Jan 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> How, he's not fast enough to react to it if Danzo can't even form hand seals from a far distance? Well, unless SM Naruto is faster than V2 Raikage which isn't the case.


Danzo is no sensor, he doesnt get  any prior warning to amaterasu coming, 
however naruto is fast enough to react when he can sense the built up well before the flames are spawned, 
naruto lacking the V2 Ay level speed isnt an issue when: 

 - he can react through sensing and act prior to  the flames 

 - he doesnt need the speed to evade it, since he can just block sasukes field of vision and hide himself to prevent the flames from getting to him, as sasuke cant ignite something he cant see

so naruto immediately uses the smoke  bombs before the flames are executed, 




> My point is, he only cared about the Enton, not the actual piercing power of the Susanoo Arrow yet he still used Susanoo Arrow which indicates higher speed.


Nah, that doesnt indicate higher speed, 
that just shows that Susanoo arrow is stronger than amaterasu, not faster, 
Amaterasu spawns whilst Susanoo Arrow travels from point A to B, 
Susanoo arrow was laughed at by DSM Kabuto, 
whilst Amatearsu required Ays top speed to be evaded, 

Ay >>> Kabuto in terms of speed, so amaterasu is certainly faster 




> When was it perceived by the Sharingan?


*Here kakashi could clearly see it coming*, hence why he was able to use kamui, 
had it been too fast for his eyes, then kamui wouldnt have been executed, 
not to mention that kakashi confirms t*hat the arrow was too fast for him to ''dodge''*, meaning that his eyes could still track its speed 



> But SM Kabuto has superior sage sensing compared to SM Naruto. Suddenly sage sensing doesn't matter when you made that argument before for SM Naruto? Doesn't even matter, SM Kabuto was from a farther distance than V2 Raikage, so that doesn't really indicate much. However, Amaterasu from a farther range was outran by Hebi Sasuke for a few seconds while Danzo can't even react to the Arrow.


Except you dont need Kabuto level speed/reflexes to evade susanoo arrow, 
when Deva path who is more or less the same speed as SM naruto (most likely abit slower) evaded FRS which travels the exact same speed as the arrow 

so naruto evades the arrow just fine, 
as for amaterasu, i am aware that naruto cant evade it,, but he can coutner it in another way which i have addressed above 

and your Danzo example is wrong,  when naruto is much faster  than him, heck 
danzo was just physically unable to evade it, doesnt mean he didnt react to it  




> Activation time, definitely, but in terms of actual speed, no.


Yes, amaterasu is faster as addressed above 



> But he could actually react and see it coming. Danzo couldn't with the Arrow.


Nope,, danzo did, as shown above, 




> He grabbed Taka Sasuke who has superior reflexes and speed than Hebi Sasuke.


Nope, once the user undergoes  the drawbacks of overusing their MS, their speed and reflexes are significantly dropped, thats why he managed to grab him, 
and Taka sasuke has more or lesss the same reflexes as hebi sasuke based on feats 



> Amaterasu isn't instant. Is it activated instantaneously? Yes. Does it move instantaneously? No. The weakest one  who can literally react to that kind of speed and actually see it coming is probably Juubidara. If Hebi Sasuke can actually perceive Amaterasu and outrun it for a few seconds, it's obviously not instantaneous.


Never stated its instant when we have already seen V2 Ay comfortably evade it, 




> You haven't addressed anything.
> 
> Deva Path didn't move as fast as FRS, so it's meaningless to say SM Naruto > Deva as that gives us no indication of whether SM Naruto can move as fast as that jutsu.


But Deva path did evade FRS, andd Naruto had  the upperhand against him in CQC allowing him to overwhelm him completely, 
so naruto evades something on the same level as  FRS as well 



> FRS isn't as fast the Arrow and even if it was, KCM Naruto threw that FRS with his chakra arms which is obviously going to be a lot faster than the FRS SM Naruto threw at this point in time. More power = greater throwing speed.


Yes it is, and the scan is a clear indication that it, 
not to mention that *KCM naruto didnt even use his chakra arms to assist its speed*, so that excuse isnt helping 

whats worse is that it was *Third Raikage who evaded a chakrra arm assisting FRS whilst being blinded by the sun, *
whereas SM naruto already proved it that his reflexes are superioor to the raikage, based on their encounter 
so naruto can stil evade it, especially when he uses frog danger sensing 



> Except StarWanderer can prove otherwise.


V2 Ay is superior to Blind madaara interms of speed, 



> That is impressive, but still doesn't indicate that he can dodge the Arrow, esp. at close range.


blitzing asura path may not, 
but having  the speed comparable to deva,, who evaded an attack thats exactly as  fast as the arrow, does 




> He barely outran, but at least he could react. Danzo, however, could not. Doesn't even matter. Itachi was clearly trying to aim it at Sasuke, regardless if it was trying to hit the wings or not. He wanted to push Sasuke to his limits, so obviously, he would try to actually hit him.


ok




> Mmmm, good point.
> 
> 
> Pain doesn't move as fast as FRS though. That's more in terms of reaction speed. Even with Deva Path being the only Path left, he still barely dodged FRS.


Again, you dont need to move as fast as the jutsu to evade it, yet pein still evaded it, 
sm naruto does as well, 




> Meaning he can react to and use Enton to counter FRS easily.


Not when naruto can make sasuke go for the decoy, and land an FRS towards the back side of the susanoo 




> Yes, and in that split second, he managed to pull off Enton despite being blitzed which activates instant activation time. FRS doesn't have instant activation time.


coating susanoo in enton isnt helping him counter the FRS, 
there wont be even a remote amoount of flames to prevent the FRS from exploding so susanoo still gets busted 




> If he can get behind Sasuke. Even then, he can just Amaterasu twice if it does happen considering he uses it the way he did against Pain which was just a Shadow Shuriken with a Rasenshuriken coming right after it. With that, Sasuke easily reacts with Enton and Naruto loses his SM which is game over. Naruto has to overcome a greater risk of using FRS than Sasuke does with his Amaterasu which we all know he pretty much spams along with Susanoo.


Lol no way in hell is sasuke spamming amaterasu and susanoo without karin helping him, or without draining himsef  within a minute, 
naruto can reenter SM through using clones or summons as diversions, so him running out is still not an issue 

and how exactly is sasuke using amatrerasu when his vision would be hindered by the smoke bombs which naruto canonically used prior to throwing the FRS ?




> That's true, however, if he can Katon Baku and then react quick enough to hit Danzo before he can even make a seal, I don't see him being so easily defeated by an FRS and the possibility that SM Naruto does attack from the rear end.


Except Danzo does not equal naruto, in any way shape or form, 
not  to mention that naruto doesnt need to attack from the rare end,, 
with his vision hindered from the  smoke bomb, and the fact that he will waste enton on the decoy, 
the real FRS would just come the second later and explode within contact with the susanoo 

rear end isnt even needed 



> Yet it takes time to re-enter SM as well as the fact that toad summons are technically restricted. Even then, Amaterasu spam my dear friend.


Clones can then use Rasengan barrages to take out or stall sasuke, 
by that time, naruto would enter SM just fine 

and summons such as bunta or the gama toads are still allowed, 
naruto can use Food Cart Destroyer to hold susanoo and sasuke down, before naruto enters SM





> Confused, what does LoS stand for?


LoS = Line Of Sight 


> Yeah, I don't deny that Sasuke gets wrecked in CQC.


True 




> Look at the next response.
> 
> 
> * Okay, I concede to this*.






> I concede to this, but I still say both of them have a chance high difficulty. I'm just arguing for Sasuke.


Yeah i never said that its a stomp either, 
though with feats in perspective, naruto edges him out High diff


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## kingcools (Jan 18, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Not very efficiently or Kakashi wouldn't ever use Doton and waste chakra like that.


if genin naruto can do it, so can sage mode naruto.






> Ma and Pa rank immediately under the Great Toad Sage. The other frogs don't even compare.



naruto was trained directly by ma and pa, can summon all other frogs easily, is higher skilled in regards to sage mode that jiraiya who has to summon ma and pa to enter it, but you are trying to tell me naruto cannot summon ma and pa? are you kidding?


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## Blu-ray (Jan 18, 2015)

Naruto does not know of that specific weakness of Susano'o, so he isn't going to be employing it here.

It's not a matter of whether or not Naruto can summon those too. It's the fact that the summon takes too long, and the summoner can do nothing during the prep.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 18, 2015)

Come on, people - SM naruto has everything to counter MS Sasuke perfectly. The only Sasuke's technique that can theoretically be a problem is Amaterasu. But even than, SM Naruto can counter it with smoke and clones. And lol, Susanoo? Sasunoo will drain Sasuke to the point when he wont be able to fight anymore. Sasuke cant win this. 

Naruto already surpassed Sasuke at that point.


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## kingcools (Jan 18, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Naruto does not know of that specific weakness of Susano'o, so he isn't going to be employing it here.
> 
> It's not a matter of whether or not Naruto can summon those too. It's the fact that the summon takes too long, and the summoner can do nothing during the prep.



i never spoke about him abusing some weakness of susanno.
how does the summoning take too long? it doesnt even matter as he will be underground when he summons them. sasuke cannot detect him there.

stop denying it: my strat will make naruto win easily.


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## ueharakk (Jan 19, 2015)

Naruto takes this just because his summons are far superior to Sasuke's own.  It'd be more fair to either restrict summons for both or give Sasuke taka.  If Naruto summons ma and pa, I don't see how sasuke can handle Naruto when frog song will beat him, dust cloud will greatly nullify his doujutsu, and the two sages are big enough threats that trying to kill them will leave huge openings for naruto to pull off a finisher or will greatly deplete his stamina.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 19, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Come on, people - SM naruto has everything to counter MS Sasuke perfectly. The only Sasuke's technique that can theoretically be a problem is Amaterasu. But even than, SM Naruto can counter it with smoke and clones. And lol, Susanoo? Sasunoo will drain Sasuke to the point when he wont be able to fight anymore. Sasuke cant win this.
> 
> Naruto already surpassed Sasuke at that point.



 Susanoo outlasts SM Naruto which is the main point along with Susanoo Arrow which is arguably faster than Amaterasu.


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## ueharakk (Jan 19, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Susanoo outlasts SM Naruto which is the main point along with Susanoo Arrow which is arguably faster than Amaterasu.



Naruto just has to get a single clone out of the battlefield, and he's got another 5 minutes of SM.  That's not much of a problem against someone like sasuke who's body gets negatively affected by all of his MS techs as well as his chakra taking a massive dip, and when naruto can use as many clones as he wants if he doesn't have ones gathering natural energy.

Dude, susanoo arrow's speed isn't even comparable to amaterasu.  Danzou couldn't activate izanagi in time because it required handseals in order to activate and deactivate.  If Sasuke had shot him with amaterasu, he'd have been hit before he could even grow a tree out of his arm.


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## Amol (Jan 21, 2015)

Sage Naruto has counter for everything Sasuke has .
-Amaterasu ?
Don't make me laugh.
Sage Naruto is country level Sensor.
-Susanoo?
No mobility,2 FRS back to back.
FRS wipes Sasuke with his Susanoo.
Not to say Sasuke can't maintain it for long time .
-Genjutsu?
With Clones and Ma and Pa around?
-Raiton
Naruto has Superior element .
-CQC
Suicide against Frog Kata.
Naruto knowing Sasuke's surname won't look at him and create clones.
As Him being a Sage , he doesn't need to see his opponent.
Ma blocks LoS.
Sensing +FRS.
Naruto wins .
With Toad army it will be one sided beat, down , considering only Gamabunta's AoE attacks and physical strength.


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## kingcools (Jan 21, 2015)

kingcools said:


> stop denying it: my strat will make naruto win easily.



my strat makes this a walk in the park for naruto


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