# killer bee vs itachi



## richard lewis (Feb 4, 2014)

location - bee vs taka
knowledge - itachi know bee is the 8 tails jin, bee knows itachi has the MS
restrictions - none


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 4, 2014)

Bee gets wrecked. Itachi can decipher and dodge Bee's Kenjutsu. Susano'o will manhandle Bee up close as well. He could get grabbed and slammed with Tsukuyomi, thinking he'll be okay because he's a jinchuriki. But we already know that the Hachibi will not be able to break the Genjutsu in a second. It would take at least 2-3 and by then the Genjutsu will have run its course and Bee will be broken.

In Bijuu Mode, Itachi will simply pierce him with Totsuka before any Bijudama comes out.


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## Kai (Feb 4, 2014)

After multiple base/base and V1/partial Susano'o exchanges, Bee enters Bijuu Mode. Itachi ignites him with Amaterasu. Bee is able to substitute but not without difficulty of physical cost, as Gyuki states. Itachi has Susano'o offense on the ready as Bee regains his fighting position. 

After Bee is forced into substitution, Itachi should be in a greater position combat wise for the rest of the fight. He'll have enough chakra for another Amaterasu and Susano'o will be faster in execution than anything Bee tries, and the only certainty of destroying a full Susano'o is by entering Bijuu Mode. Amaterasu will be ready to launch once more, and is the ultimate clincher that sets the pace decisively in Itachi's favor.

High-extreme to Itachi for the chakra costs necessary to get the job done.


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## Trojan (Feb 4, 2014)

Itachi's only chance is Amatersu, if it hits, Gyūki can cut part of his tails to gets ride of it, as they did the last time. 

I don't see what itachi can do against this as well.


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## richard lewis (Feb 4, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Bee gets wrecked. Itachi can decipher and dodge Bee's Kenjutsu. Susano'o will manhandle Bee up close as well. He could get grabbed and slammed with Tsukuyomi, thinking he'll be okay because he's a jinchuriki. But we already know that the Hachibi will not be able to break the Genjutsu in a second. It would take at least 2-3 and by then the Genjutsu will have run its course and Bee will be broken.
> 
> In Bijuu Mode, Itachi will simply pierce him with Totsuka before any Bijudama comes out.



Last time I checked itachi had to retreat due to the skill of bee's 7 sword style 3, you can see on the bottom panels that itachi had to fall back and jump on to nagato summon to escape. Between his sword play and his giant tentacles that can pop up out of the ground at any second and grab itachi I would say bee has the advantage in CQC. Bee is also much stronger and far more durable.

As for itachi's genjutsu 3 bee broke it in like 2 panels so it's pretty damn close to one second. Also it should be noted the tosukiyomi lasts 1 second to the outside world but several days in Bee's mind. Since the 8 tails lives in bee's mind it should feel like days to him as well giving him ample time to counter it..

Amaterasu gets blocked by bee's tentacles. And I'm pretty sure totsuika has a limit to what it can seal. I mean think about it once something is sealed as far as we know it can't be unsealed "unless maybe itachi chooses to do so". So if itachi could seal buju then why not do exactly that seal a buju, it would have screwed obito's plans making it impossible to revive the 10 tails. The fact that itachi didn't do this leads me to believe he can't seal buju.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Feb 4, 2014)

Meh I think if this fight happened it wouldn't be easy for either. Bee does have pretty good resistance to genjutsu thanks to Gyuki, but Itachi has some of the most powerful genjutsu ever seen. Only people people with comparable skill: Shisui(Better than Itachi actually), then other's who have some form of an ultimate genjutsu (Madara and Obito, Fukasaku and his wife)

I'd give the stamina to Bee hands down. His kenjutsu no doubt can keep up with Itachi's taijutsu. However main problem is he's not very well equipped to handle all of the fire jutsu Itachi has and then his sharingan abilities. If I were Bee I'd basically try to throw TBB's as soon as I could without getting scorched/my mind violated. That's the only way he's going to get past Susanno and hope to not get screwed over by something like Amaterasu.


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## richard lewis (Feb 4, 2014)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> Meh I think if this fight happened it wouldn't be easy for either. Bee does have pretty good resistance to genjutsu thanks to Gyuki, but Itachi has some of the most powerful genjutsu ever seen. Only people people with comparable skill: Shisui(Better than Itachi actually), then other's who have some form of an ultimate genjutsu (Madara and Obito, Fukasaku and his wife)
> 
> I'd give the stamina to Bee hands down. His kenjutsu no doubt can keep up with Itachi's taijutsu. However main problem is he's not very well equipped to handle all of the fire jutsu Itachi has and then his sharingan abilities. If I were Bee I'd basically try to throw TBB's as soon as I could without getting scorched/my mind violated. That's the only way he's going to get past Susanno and hope to not get screwed over by something like Amaterasu.



samehada can absorb itachi katons, it could also arguably absorb amaterasu as well. Although like I said in my previous post bee can block it with tentacles.


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## Bonly (Feb 4, 2014)

As long as B doesn't go full BM he can win by outlasting Itachi, his only problem would be trying to avoid Ama in base-V2.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 4, 2014)

Bee always has the advantage in this matchup. Tentacles blocking Amaterasu, Samehada absorbing it, ink clones feinting it, stretching it off of his body in BM, blowing it of with whirlwind in BM, people have already made arguments for the countering of Amaterasu.

There is absolutely no way Totsuka seals Killer Bee and Gyuki. It took Nagato, and the rest of the Akatsuki several days to seal Shukaku into an advanced chakra chamber (Gedo Mazo). Sick Itachi would die before sealing that much chakra.

It wouldn't matter anyway, there's no real way Totsuka hits Killer Bee as he reacted to Amaterasu, other Bijuus (V1-V2-BM w/ Sharingan enhancements), Minato's FTG and Obito's attacks. 

It's likely he's destroyed by Bee before Totsuka (V2-V3 Susano) is even applicable. A sick Itachi requires time to jump into that mode.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Feb 4, 2014)

Aye, but note I mentioned his fire style jutsus(or katon if you wish) *and his sharingan abilities. If bee went full BM that's an easy target for amaterasu (blocking with tentacles or not that has a serious effect) and Totsuka Blade(Well, I did forget that that's a lot of chakra to seal...). (Arg and normally I cringe when that's mentioned). Itachi uses his other jutsu with powerful opponents as more of means to keep pressure on the enemy IMO. His actual finishing moves are with sharingan abilities. Don't get me wrong I think Bee has a fair chance here, I just feel that there are a lot of things he could do wrong that would lose him the fight.*


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 4, 2014)

Itachi pins B down with Susano'o and mauls him repeatedly till he passes out. 

If B transforms into Hacibee then Amaterasu/Totsuga/Tsukiyomi GG.


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 4, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> Last time I checked itachi had to retreat due to the skill of bee's 7 sword style counter attack, you can see on the bottom panels that itachi had to fall back and jump on to nagato summon to escape. Between his sword play and his giant tentacles that can pop up out of the ground at any second and grab itachi I would say bee has the advantage in CQC. Bee is also much stronger and far more durable.



The point is that Itachi can dodge his Kenjutsu style and block some of his moves. You can see in that page that there are some of those "exchange hit" marks. I'm talking about this:



So as far as Kenjutsu goes, it's a non-factor, because Itachi can dodge and block all of it.



> As for itachi's genjutsu counter attack bee broke it in like 2 panels so it's pretty damn close to one second. Also it should be noted the tosukiyomi lasts 1 second to the outside world but several days in Bee's mind. Since the 8 tails lives in bee's mind it should feel like days to him as well giving him ample time to counter it..



Panels are not representative of time. I could show you a lot of panels that equaled one second (Pain dodging FRS). Anyway, it was more than two panels. It was activated on the top left of this page: counter attack

And lasted through here: counter attack

Because that wasn't Tsukuyomi, it didn't control time. So that was a lot longer than two seconds. Tsukuyomi will last much less time.

Also, the Hachibi is not caught in the Genjutsu, otherwise it wouldn't be able to free Bee from it. Bee explained it that the outside source to break the Genjutsu is his Bijuu. If it's an outside source, it's not caught in the Genjutsu. So for the Hachibi it will be a second. For Bee it'll be 3 days.



> Amaterasu gets blocked by bee's tentacles. And I'm pretty sure totsuika has a limit to what it can seal. I mean think about it once something is sealed as far as we know it can't be unsealed "unless maybe itachi chooses to do so". So if itachi could seal buju then why not do exactly that seal a buju, it would have screwed obito's plans making it impossible to revive the 10 tails. The fact that itachi didn't do this leads me to believe he can't seal buju.



BM's reactions are not fast enough to block Amaterasu. And Totsuka will definitely seal it. Just because he didn't try it against a Bijuu to mess up their plans doesn't mean anything.


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## richard lewis (Feb 4, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> The point is that Itachi can dodge his Kenjutsu style and block some of his moves. You can see in that page that there are some of those "exchange hit" marks. I'm talking about this:
> 
> 
> 
> So as far as Kenjutsu goes, it's a non-factor, because Itachi can dodge and block all of it.



I agree itachi can keep up but bee should hold a slight advantage here.



Master Sephiroth said:


> Panels are not representative of time. I could show you a lot of panels that equaled one second (Pain dodging FRS). Anyway, it was more than two panels. It was activated on the top left of this page: Link removed
> 
> And lasted through here: Link removed
> 
> ...



It's impossible to say how long tsokyomi would last for the 8 tails, it exists in bee's mind and if I recall correctly it even feels pain when bee feels pain "there was a scan of this I don't feel like searching for it though" so I think tsukuyomi would last the same for him as it does for bee giving him ample time to break out.




Master Sephiroth said:


> BM's reactions are not fast enough to block Amaterasu. And Totsuka will definitely seal it. Just because he didn't try it against a Bijuu to mess up their plans doesn't mean anything.



Well ill agree I can't prove totsuka wouldn't work, but bee can simply fight him in VS to avoid getting sealed. 

Link removed bee's tentacle was quick enough to stop minato from point blank range, it can block amaterasu.


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 4, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> I agree itachi can keep up but bee should hold a slight advantage here.



That's only if Itachi engages in Taijutsu. What if he decides to pull out Susano'o? Itachi can grab Bee with a Susano'o arm.



> It's impossible to say how long tsokyomi would last for the 8 tails, it exists in bee's mind and if I recall correctly it even feels pain when bee feels pain "there was a scan of this I don't feel like searching for it though" so I think tsukuyomi would last the same for him as it does for bee giving him ample time to break out.



It's not impossible. It's pretty clear cut. The Hachibi is a separate entity from Bee, but it's sealed inside. It is not caught in a Genjutsu with Bee. Who breaks the Hachibi out of Genjutsu otherwise? 



> Well ill agree I can't prove totsuka wouldn't work, but bee can simply fight him in VS to avoid getting sealed.



Totsuka would be a problem for a huge ass target like the Hachibi. Which is why I brought it up for Bijuu Mode only.



> Link removed bee's tentacle was quick enough to stop minato from point blank range, it can block amaterasu.



And yet without intel it was not able to block Sasuke's Amaterasu. So it won't be blocking Itachi's either.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 4, 2014)

I see Itachi winning, mostly because of Amaterasu. The napalm like sticky substance will latch onto Killer Bee and eventually defeat him as he doesn't possess the speed necessary to dodge it or an adequate counter to consistently rid himself of it . 

Samehada  which was burned by Itachi's generic and largely unimpressive katon stands virtually no chance of successfully absorbing the highest level release of that same element.

Killer Bee can potentially be caught by Tsukiyomi, which is readily possible if Itachi chooses to disguise the technique in a crow of his instead of overtly just attempting direct eye sight. 

Assuming Killer Bee isn't carries the implication that Itachi hasn't wasted his chakra on it, which means he has four or so uses of Amaterasu with which to put Killer Bee down pending how much time and chakra he spends on Susanoo. 

Killer Bee maybe able to substitute the first one but ultimately he's not going to substitute them all I feel.


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## richard lewis (Feb 4, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> That's only if Itachi engages in Taijutsu. What if he decides to pull out Susano'o? Itachi can grab Bee with a Susano'o arm.



All I'm saying is bee holds an advantage in CQC due to superior strength and durability, and superior kenjutsu skill. susanoo is a totally different matter altogether. 



Master Sephiroth said:


> It's not impossible. It's pretty clear cut. The Hachibi is a separate entity from Bee, but it's sealed inside. It is not caught in a Genjutsu with Bee. Who breaks the Hachibi out of Genjutsu otherwise?



hachibi is a separate entity that lives inside of bee's mind! It can hear his thoughts and feel his pain. They pretty much share all of their experiences. so if hachibi got caught in a genjutsu "which could only happen if it took control of bee's body similar to how kurama took over naruto's body" then bee would brake it out.



Master Sephiroth said:


> Totsuka would be a problem for a huge ass target like the Hachibi. Which is why I brought it up for Bijuu Mode only.



fair enough



Master Sephiroth said:


> And yet without intel it was not able to block Sasuke's Amaterasu. So it won't be blocking Itachi's either.



But bee has intel, read the OP he know itachi has the MS thus he will be anticipating such an attack. Bee should be able to tell from his bleeding eye that he is about to use amy and respond accordingly.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 4, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> I see Itachi winning, mostly because of Amaterasu. The napalm like sticky substance will latch onto Killer Bee and eventually defeat him as he doesn't possess the speed necessary to dodge it or an adequate counter to consistently rid himself of it .
> 
> Samehada  which was burned by Itachi's generic and largely unimpressive katon stands virtually no chance of successfully absorbing the highest level release of that same element.
> 
> ...


Examples were provided earlier in the thread to how Amaterasu is countered, which number in about half a dozen. There is really no basis to your argument of Amaterasu killing Bee. 

Samehada survived a direct V2 Lariat from Bee, which in V1, was powerful enough to do this [1]. In base, powerful enough to do this [1]. He has the option of outright blocking Amaterasu with the blade, which will eventually absorb Amaterasu and heal itself, the same way it absorbed the fireball. 

I hope you don't actually think he can prep a Tsukuyomi Crow in mid-battle. Holy shit that would be a sight. 

Your analysis provides nothing new to the debate.


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 4, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> All I'm saying is bee holds an advantage in CQC due to superior strength and durability, and superior kenjutsu skill. susanoo is a totally different matter altogether.



Susano'o is close ranged, is it not? It's part of Itachi's CQC, known as Close Quarters Combat. Kenjutsu is useless against Susano'o, so he does not have a CQC advantage. He has a Taijutsu/Kenjutsu advantage, but that amounts to nothing in the face of Itachi's Sharingan, speed and Susano'o.



> hachibi is a separate entity that lives inside of bee's mind! It can hear his thoughts and feel his pain. They pretty much share all of their experiences. so if hachibi got caught in a genjutsu "which could only happen if it took control of bee's body similar to how kurama took over naruto's body" then bee would brake it out.



They don't share every experience. They are not caught in Genjutsu together. Genjutsu requires an outside source to break whenever one cannot overcome it by themselves. That outside source for Bee is the Hachibi. That means he is not caught in Genjutsu with Bee. 



> But bee has intel, read the OP he know itachi has the MS thus he will be anticipating such an attack. Bee should be able to tell from his bleeding eye that he is about to use amy and respond accordingly.



Okay, so you're giving Bee intel based on his fight with Sasuke. That's not what you said in the OP. Knowing that Itachi has MS is basic intel. 

But anyway, with that intel, he still wouldn't be able to block a headshot because Bee didn't have to move that large of a tentacle to block Minato. Moving a huge ass tentacle is totally different.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 4, 2014)

> Susano'o is close ranged, is it not? It's part of Itachi's CQC, known as Close Quarters Combat. Kenjutsu is useless against Susano'o, so he does not have a CQC advantage. He has a Taijutsu/Kenjutsu advantage, but that amounts to nothing in the face of Itachi's Sharingan, speed and Susano'o.


He actually has an advanced close quarter advantage. Susano is useless against Samehada, it will be absorbed and he will be slashed through.

Sick Itachi cannot keep pace with base-V1 Killer Bee, Edo Itachi struggled to remain in close quarters against him.

Itachi's only option is continuing to run and blasting Amaterasu.


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 4, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> He actually has an advanced close quarter advantage. Susano is useless against Samehada, it will be absorbed and he will be slashed through.
> 
> Sick Itachi cannot keep pace with base-V1 Killer Bee, Edo Itachi struggled to combat him.
> 
> Itachi's only option is continuing to run and blasting Amaterasu.



Already happened. Sorry.



And yes, Samehada is right there on Bee's back.

Susano'o was fine grabbing Samehada. Sick Itachi can keep pace with any form of Killer Bee. Edo Itachi without using MS combatted him just fine. Susano'o will wreck Bee.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 4, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Already happened. Sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm looking at Bee being separated from Nagato than grappled by Susano from a blindside angle without Samehada out by Edo Itachi. 

What does this prove for you?


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 4, 2014)

> Examples were provided earlier in the thread to how Amaterasu is countered, which number in about half a dozen. There is really no basis to your argument of Amaterasu killing Bee.


I didn't see eye to eye with many of them. When you claimed Amaterasu could be spun off for instance, despite it being depicted in a manner akin to gripping and sticking to its targets, I envisioned our takes of the jutsu as too far apart for consensus to be reached.


> Samehada survived a direct V2 Lariat from Bee, which in V1, was powerful enough to do this [1]. In base, powerful enough to do this [1]. He has the option of outright blocking Amaterasu with the blade, which will eventually absorb Amaterasu and heal itself, the same way it absorbed the fireball.


Samehada surviving a physical attack really has no bearings on how it would deal with being ignited. I think it's a leap to say Samehada would absorb amaterasu when it had trouble with itachi's generic katon, and punished Killer Bee by hitting him for making it eat the katon.

In essence, samehada has shown its not infallible, that it feels pain, and that there are limits to what it wants and wants not to eat. If there are limits inherent in how hot or how powerful a katon it can eat, those limits would be reached by Amaterasu, since it is the highest level release. I think it would be burned and potentially even start screeching in pain, especially if Itachi sustained the Amaterasu instead of shot a singular blast of it.

Naruto's words also give me the implication that Amaterasu would potentially be the end of him


> I hope you don't actually think he can prep a Tsukuyomi Crow in mid-battle. Holy shit that would be a sight.


All he needs to do to "prep" a crow is summon it and tap it.


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## richard lewis (Feb 4, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Susano'o is close ranged, is it not? It's part of Itachi's CQC, known as Close Quarters Combat. Kenjutsu is useless against Susano'o, so he does not have a CQC advantage. He has a Taijutsu/Kenjutsu advantage, but that amounts to nothing in the face of Itachi's Sharingan, speed and Susano'o.



I consider close range to be fighting within a 1-2 meter range of your opponent, when using susanoo itachi himself is not within 2 meters of his opponent as susanoo itself is larger than that. I suppose the rib cage version could count as CQC though. 



Master Sephiroth said:


> They don't share every experience. They are not caught in Genjutsu together. Genjutsu requires an outside source to break whenever one cannot overcome it by themselves. That outside source for Bee is the Hachibi. That means he is not caught in Genjutsu with Bee.



hachibi can see everything that bee see's, he can hear everything that bee hears and if I recall correctly he can even feel pain when bee gets hurt. if thats not sharing experiences then IDK what is.



Master Sephiroth said:


> Okay, so you're giving Bee intel based on his fight with Sasuke. That's not what you said in the OP. Knowing that Itachi has MS is basic intel.



What I'm saying is they have full knowledge on everyone they have encountered in the manga except for each other. In bee's case he only has basic knowledge of itachi's MS, however he can apply what he's seen from other MS users to what itachi could potentially do. in itachi's case he only know that bee is the 8 tails jin, however he can apply the knowledge from what he's seen other jins do to what bee could potentially do.



Master Sephiroth said:


> But anyway, with that intel, he still wouldn't be able to block a headshot because Bee didn't have to move that large of a tentacle to block Minato. Moving a huge ass tentacle is totally different.



bee has already shown he can move his tentacle at near instant speed, sure he might not be able to block it when fully transformed but in V2 or below he blocks it.


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## Garcher (Feb 4, 2014)

Elia said:


> I don't see what itachi can do against this as well.



Yata Mirror deflects everything, gg.

Bee doesn't stand a chance. Itachi brutally rapes him, he's just too sneaky for Bee


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## N4GAmbush (Feb 4, 2014)

Okay guys, don't worry Ambush has joined the fight! (: Alright so, I think that a lot of us are forgetting that Itachi is already faster than Killer Bee. If I recall correctly, which I do, Itachi was able to blitz Killer Bee twice already, no?

Clearly in this scan we see Itachi right next to Nagato, at the very least 20m away, and he is able to move from that position to directly behind Killer Bee before Bee can react.

Another point is that even though Killer Bee may be the better Kenjutsu practitioner, Itachi has already shown us that he's capable of reacting to him... from behind even while distracted.


Also, just to help a friend out:
No, Samehada is *not* getting past Amaterasu if it was hurt by a low ranked Katon. 

Also in the above scan^, Bee get's blitzed yet again.

In my professional opinion I must disagree with the idea that Killer Bee can escape from Tsukuyomi. It's a great try but judging from the time it took Killer Bee to escape from from one of Itachi's more simple illusions, there's no way he will have time to escape from the instantaneous Tsukuyomi no jutsu. Judging from this scan, it took Bee at least 3 seconds to escape from said genjutsu. When you consider that the crows were part of the genjutsu and Itachi had enough time to say, "don't look at my eyes", it definitely takes time for Gyoki to even A) Realize a genjutsu is present and B)Wake Bee from the technique.

-Ambush Out


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 4, 2014)

@OP, Ambush pretty much explained what I was going to anyway. But regardless, it's quite obvious that Bee does not have a close ranged advantage.



DaVizWiz said:


> I'm looking at Bee being separated from Nagato than grappled by Susano from a blindside angle without Samehada out by Edo Itachi.
> 
> What does this prove for you?



Susano'o is literally touching Samehada when it has Bee in a full body grab. It's on his back and is quite active with a mind of its own. So regardless of Samehada, Susano'o can grab Bee and he can get slammed in Tsukuyomi with the lack of intel that he has on it.


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## richard lewis (Feb 4, 2014)

N4GAmbush said:


> Okay guys, don't worry Ambush has joined the fight! (: Alright so, I think that a lot of us are forgetting that Itachi is already faster than Killer Bee. If I recall correctly, which I do, Itachi was able to blitz Killer Bee twice already, no?
> 
> Clearly in this scan we see Itachi right next to Nagato, at the very least 20m away, and he is able to move from that position to directly behind Killer Bee before Bee can react.
> 
> ...



LoL read your own scans bro, itachi got behind bee and said "behind you" bee replies "*I KNOW OK*". He was already aware of itachi's position and in the process of defending himself, itachi was just making sure! same applies to every other scan you posted off itachi supposedly blitzing bee.

As for tsukuyomi I already stated how bee brakes it in my previous posts don't feel like repeating. Same applies for ammy, like I said b4 bee blocks it with tentacles.


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## Kazekage94 (Feb 4, 2014)

Difficult to decide mmmm either way it would be high difficulty for both of them. Maybe a Stalemate


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## N4GAmbush (Feb 4, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> LoL read your own scans bro, itachi got behind bee and said "behind you" bee replies "*I KNOW OK*". He was already aware of itachi's position and in the process of defending himself, itachi was just making sure! same applies to every other scan you posted off itachi supposedly blitzing bee.


What's indisputable is the fact that Itachi was able to get behind Bee from 20m away before Killer Bee could react. He may have known that Itachi was behind him in the first scan but if he had time to react wouldn't he have done it before Itachi was behind him? 

In the second scan I presented where Nagato says, "Above You!", Naruto clearly sees Itachi and is ready to react as he is fast enough to intercept Itachi but Bee is still in shock from the speed, represented by the "!!?".

My point being that Itachi has demonstrated twice that he is faster than Killer Bee as he caught him off guard once while Naruto was able to keep up and got behind him before Bee could stop him in another instance. 



richard lewis said:


> As for tsukuyomi I already stated how bee brakes it in my previous posts don't feel like repeating. Same applies for ammy, like I said b4 bee blocks it with tentacles.


I thoroughly read your previous posts about how Bee breaks out of Tsukuyomi. While you tried to present a compelling argument(and almost succeeded), you ultimately failed once time manipulation was considered. In order for Gyuki to experience the same dilation of time that Killer Bee would, he would also need to be under the effects of Tsukuyomi, would he not? If so, Gyuki will be tormented as well as Killer Bee and neither could help the other escape. However, this is not the case as Gyuki was never subjected to the jutsu in the first place and so his perception of time will continue to function as it normally does, independent of the condition Bee is in.  

In reality, even if we consider your yet unproven hypothesis that Killer Bee and Gyuki have a linked consciousness, Killer Bee would be experiencing events that seem as though they are days in a matter of seconds and Gyuki(who wouldn't be subjected to Tsukuyomi) would process these thoughts the instant they happened in real time. 

Without sufficient prep, Gyuki wouldn't have time to awaken Killer Bee before the jutsu ends and even Naruto said that it would be over if Bee was caught. Tsukuomi is over almost the moment it is initiated and so reacting to it would be a much harder feat than even reacting to lightning.

You still have yet to provide evidence that Tsukuyomi can be broken by Killer Bee and I'm here presenting you with the jutsu description from the second databook written by Masashi Kishimoto that states otherwise. Check it out, bro 


*Spoiler*: __ 



NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI; Tsukuyomi
User: Uchiha Itachi
Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!

Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world's common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster's hands. Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem*, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches...!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.

Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labelled as the most powerful, the Uchiha clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness. One could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 4, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Susano'o is close ranged, is it not? It's part of Itachi's CQC, known as Close Quarters Combat. Kenjutsu is useless against Susano'o, so he does not have a CQC advantage. He has a Taijutsu/Kenjutsu advantage, but that amounts to nothing in the face of Itachi's Sharingan, speed and Susano'o.


Then you would also have to consider tentacles, and ink...which seals and blinds opponents so I would give the edge to Bee considering his kenjutsu prowess. Susanoo is regarded as Susanoo which can be used in close quarters. 





> They don't share every experience. They are not caught in Genjutsu together. Genjutsu requires an outside source to break whenever one cannot overcome it by themselves. That outside source for Bee is the Hachibi. That means he is not caught in Genjutsu with Bee.


And can knock Bee out of it by transforming partially or fully.





> Okay, so you're giving Bee intel based on his fight with Sasuke. That's not what you said in the OP. Knowing that Itachi has MS is basic intel.


Well the only Uchiha he has fought has only used Amaterasu(Sasuke) Genjutsu(Sasuke), and Tobi(Kamui...purely defensive) so he would assume that someone with the MS is capable of casting high level genjutsu, high level offensive technique, and a high level defensive technique.





> But anyway, with that intel, he still wouldn't be able to block a headshot because Bee didn't have to move that large of a tentacle to block Minato. Moving a huge ass tentacle is totally different.


Bee has shown great reactions and Amaterasu has a pressure wave that is released.


Bee is to versatile, the only way I see Itachi winning this is if Bee fully transforms and gets impaled by Totsuka, but Alike the Hydra a tentacle getting stabbed will not seal.


I say its about even, really depends on mindset so since there isn't one I assume its IC...so Bee 7/10 high diff.


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## richard lewis (Feb 4, 2014)

N4GAmbush said:


> What's indisputable is the fact that Itachi was able to get behind Bee from 20m away before Killer Bee could react. He may have known that Itachi was behind him in the first scan but if he had time to react wouldn't he have done it before Itachi was behind him?
> 
> In the second scan I presented where Nagato says, "Above You!", Naruto clearly sees Itachi and is ready to react as he is fast enough to intercept Itachi but Bee is still in shock from the speed, represented by the "!!?".
> 
> My point being that Itachi has demonstrated twice that he is faster than Killer Bee as he caught him off guard once while Naruto was able to keep up and got behind him before Bee could stop him in another instance.



bee clearly reacted by swinging his sword at itachi b4 he could finish his jutsu said. it's impossible to say whether or not bee would have noticed itachi above w/o nagato warning him. Considering bee has reacted to faster people "i.e. his Ei and minato" I fail to see why he couldn't keep up with itachi.



N4GAmbush said:


> I thoroughly read your previous posts about how Bee breaks out of Tsukuyomi. While you tried to present a compelling argument(and almost succeeded), you ultimately failed once time manipulation was considered. In order for Gyuki to experience the same dilation of time that Killer Bee would, he would also need to be under the effects of Tsukuyomi, would he not? If so, Gyuki will be tormented as well as Killer Bee and neither could help the other escape. However, this is not the case as Gyuki was never subjected to the jutsu in the first place and so his perception of time will continue to function as it normally does, independent of the condition Bee is in.
> 
> In reality, even if we consider your yet unproven hypothesis that Killer Bee and Gyuki have a linked consciousness, Killer Bee would be experiencing events that seem as though they are days in a matter of seconds and Gyuki(who wouldn't be subjected to Tsukuyomi) would process these thoughts the instant they happened in real time.
> 
> ...



First off saying only uchiha can break it is a farce, I'm pretty sure hashirama would be able to break it if kishi drew out this fight. also it should be noted that sasuke broke out of the jutsu as well.
again if their consciousness is linked then the 8 tails would experience things at the same rate as bee. 

LOL btw the 2nd databook was written b4 killer was even introduced as a character. kishi probably hadn't even thought of the buju partner method at the time.


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 4, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Then you would also have to consider tentacles, and ink...which seals and blinds opponents so I would give the edge to Bee considering his kenjutsu prowess. Susanoo is regarded as Susanoo which can be used in close quarters.



Susano'o>Tentacles and ink. It's just overall more versatile and more powerful. 



> And can knock Bee out of it by transforming partially or fully.



Not before Bee has suffered 72 hours of torture...



> Well the only Uchiha he has fought has only used Amaterasu(Sasuke) Genjutsu(Sasuke), and Tobi(Kamui...purely defensive) so he would assume that someone with the MS is capable of casting high level genjutsu, high level offensive technique, and a high level defensive technique.Bee has shown great reactions and Amaterasu has a pressure wave that is released.



He has never been under a Genjutsu he couldn't defeat. Which is why Tsukuyomi is ridiculously deadly for Bee without knowledge of it. 

Since the OP clarified more on the intel, I concur that he might be able to block some Amaterasu shots depending on where it's aimed. At the head, I don't think so. 



> Bee is to versatile, the only way I see Itachi winning this is if Bee fully transforms and gets impaled by Totsuka, but Alike the Hydra a tentacle getting stabbed will not seal.



I don't see how Bee can win without Bijuu Mode. No matter what, Itachi can dodge whatever is thrown at him. Meanwhile Itachi can time his Susano'o Arm just right so that he grabs Bee out of whatever movements he is doing.


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## N4GAmbush (Feb 4, 2014)

@richard lewis
Thanks for the response (:
*Knuckles Crack*



richard lewis said:


> bee clearly reacted by swinging his sword at itachi b4 he could finish his jutsu said.


Indeed he did, however, that was never my point. I suppose I'll explain my logic once more. In a conventional fight between two parties it is very uncommon for the combatants to let the opposing party get behind them. What I'm saying is this, Itachi was able to get behind Bee before Bee could slash him with his sword. If you notice, Killer Bee's reactions are actually too late and he misses his attack all together while Itachi then uses that opening to attack with Katon- Housenka Tsumabeni. That attack prompts Killer Bee to use his hands to block the attack as samehada is of no use at that moment. To put this into simple terms, Itachi was able to blitz Killer Bee from at least 20 meters and get behind him before Killer Bee could even turn around, nevertheless swing his blade. Then, even after the blade was swung, Itachi was too far away to be hit and took advantage of Bee's attempt. Do you now see my logic? I sure hope so.
Moving on,



richard lewis said:


> it's impossible to say whether or not bee would have noticed itachi above w/o nagato warning him. Considering bee has reacted to faster people "i.e. his Ei and minato" I fail to see why he couldn't keep up with itachi.


After what I addressed above, I doubt it. Also in terms of reactions Itachi's feats far accede those of Killer Bees. He did react to this after all... (read the 2nd panel)



richard lewis said:


> First off saying only uchiha can break it is a farce, I'm pretty sure hashirama would be able to break it if kishi drew out this fight. also it should be noted that sasuke broke out of the jutsu as well.
> again if their consciousness is linked then the 8 tails would experience things at the same rate as bee.



 Hashirama breaking out is purely speculation and cannot be addressed any further. 

As for your second point, I actually find it hard to believe that Sasuke was able to break out of Tsukuyomi. Its rather strange... when reading through the databook I believe it said something like, "*Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors.*". Well, surly that can't apply to Sasuke *Uchiha* or anything because he doesn't have anything like the *sharingan* to help him escape... mindblown 



richard lewis said:


> again if their consciousness is linked then the 8 tails would experience things at the same rate as bee.


Again, no. The 8 tails would need to be subjected to the jutsu for that to happen. Luckily we don't need to debate that Gyuki doesn't get put into genjutsu's when Bee does as it has been proven before here. Killer Bee would experience one second of time as three days. Gyuki would experience that same one second of time as 1 second of time. In reality, the only time that passes is one second for each of them except Bee's perception of time is extended. He can call out to Gyuki all he wants in those 72 hours but unfortunately Gyuki will still experience all of that in 1 second which is too fast for him to be able to react as, once again, proven here.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 4, 2014)

B is so careless, Kisame basically one-paneled him and Itachi himself nearly did the same.

While B is certainly equipped to give Itachi a tough fight, there is just an astronomical difference in their intelligence and focus. And with the lack of intel here, B won't even know what hit him.

Give them both full or a decent amount of intel and this becomes a close match.


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## N4GAmbush (Feb 5, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> To avoid from Killer Bee's attacks itachi needs his susanoo,, and since Itachi is alive,, he cant really use his MS techniques to a higher extent due to the side effects,,,,


Okay, true, Itachi can't overuse Mangekyo but why would he need to? The only attack in Killer Bee's arsenal that Itachi would have to block with Susano'o would be a large-scale TBB from Gyuki. We've already seen how fast Itachi can erect susano'o as well and it's ooc for either of them to immediately go full 8 tails or use complete susanoo.



xxHKCDxx said:


> while its possible that killer bee in V2 doesnt have the firepower to destroy itachis susanoo,, he can still attack him and force itachi to overuse his MS,,


A) Your right, if Itachi's basic susano'o blocked this then I don't see anything in Bee's arsenal to get through his complete susano'o.
B)If Bee is dumb enough to go head-to-head with Itachi while Itachi is using this then I would love to see him try. *Swordslash* GG.



xxHKCDxx said:


> If this Edo Itachi,, then Itachi wins this more times than
> Itachi can now use his susanoo and MS techniques to a much higher extent and Bee requires his V2 form to counter amaterasu,, however he cant break itachis susanoo in this form,, as he needs his full hachibi to do that,,, and when he is full hachibi then he is basically a sitting duck for amaterasu as the jutsu is too fast for bee to effectively avoid
> Edo Itachi beats killer bee high diff


Itachi maintained susano'o for a significant amount of time with zetu commented that he should have no chakra so yes, it's taxing on him but people act as though susano'o can only be used for 30 seconds, chill out.

Nobody has been able to prove so far that: 
A) Bee can escape from Tsukuyomi
B) Bee's V2 blocks Amaterasu
C) Bee can destroy susano'o
D) Itachi cannot keep up with Bee
E) Totsuka can't seal Gyuki.

I, however, have provided counter-evidence for each one of these points and because of that data it's possible to conclude that alive Itachi can take Killer Bee. Would it be a high difficulty battle? Certainly, but Itachi would be able to do it. Not only does Killer Bee have nothing to stop susano'o, but it would be suicide if he even tried. The simple truth is this, Itachi's entire arsenal is perfect for taking on Killer B while the opposite is true for B. What is Killer Bee gonna do, ink Itachi to death? Hasn't Itachi already escaped from Gyuki's tentacles? Hasn't Itachi already survived a kinjutsu onslaught with Bee? I hope you see where I'm going with this, Killer Bee loses. If he goes full hachibi then Itachi doesn't even need to use totsuka as Gyuki is big enough to be hit with Yasaka no Magatama. If he blocks that somehow, Itachi seals him with totsuka anyways. 

Final consensus: Itachi 8/10. 

-Ambush Out


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## asstonine (Feb 5, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> location - bee vs taka
> knowledge - itachi know bee is the 8 tails jin, bee knows itachi has the MS
> restrictions - none



Hebi Sasuke ~ Sick Itachi ~ Take Sasuke

Taka Sasuke v/s Bee

Bee raped the ever living shit out of him, and the rest of Taka, numerous times!
So, yah, the outcome seem kind of clear.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 5, 2014)

asstonine said:


> Hebi Sasuke ~ Sick Itachi ~ Take Sasuke
> 
> Taka Sasuke v/s Bee
> 
> ...



That was a convalescent Taka Sasuke who could only use Amaterasu one time, with no Susano'o yet, and no real experience using the MS in battle yet...


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## Ghost (Feb 5, 2014)

Why is not asstonine permanently banned?


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## Ersa (Feb 5, 2014)

B fight Sasuke was still injured too.


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## asstonine (Feb 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> That was a convalescent Taka Sasuke who could only use Amaterasu one time, with no Susano'o yet, and no real experience using the MS in battle yet...



So what?  He was still on par with his old hebi sasuke self!  Fact is the MS was the crutch that allowed him to limp away with his tail btn his legs.

Usually A>B>C doesn't work, but seeing as these guys are nearly identical it kind of does.

Even IF you wanted to argue otherwise, the level of rape that Bee handed out removes any level of doubt in the difference in them.



saikyou said:


> Why is not asstonine permanently banned?



Because having a reading level above the 6th grade, and being a non-itachi wanker isn't against the rules.



xxHKCDxx said:


> What version of itachi is this,, because this depends heavily on how the battle will go,,
> Assuming that this is alive healthy itachi, then Killer Bee wins this more times than not
> 
> To avoid from Killer Bee's attacks itachi needs his susanoo,, and since Itachi is alive,, he cant really use his MS techniques to a higher extent due to the side effects,,,,
> ...



This is the proper analysis!

I would like to reiterate though, the only reason edo Itachi even stands a chance is because going into the hachibi mode makes him a large target!  In other words, he is merely winning, because this is a bad matchup for Bee.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 5, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Susano'o>Tentacles and ink. It's just overall more versatile and more powerful.


True but given Itachi's chakra pool and Susanoo tax then I see Bee CQC skill as being better and more versatile. He can use his tentacles to block, attack, or escape. Ink has sealing properties as well as can make clones of ink and his raiton flow abilities I see B as having the better by far.

Also note that Bee was reacting just fine to Itachi and pushed him back when Itachi engaged in CQC.


> Not before Bee has suffered 72 hours of torture...


 And? What is 72 hours of torture supposed to do against a experienced ninja such as B, Shit the Humans torture each other for longer and even though the people aren't in the right mind they are still capable of resisting and planning. Also if you know the pain if fake and its not real then eventually you will overcome that pain as you know its not a lethal hit, much like how Orochimaru takes attacks yet doesn't scream out in pain...because he thinks its not a lethal hit.





> He has never been under a Genjutsu he couldn't defeat. Which is why Tsukuyomi is ridiculously deadly for Bee without knowledge of it.


I explained above, Bee doesn't use genjutsu. And yes Itachi has, Koto A.


> Since the OP clarified more on the intel, I concur that he might be able to block some Amaterasu shots depending on where it's aimed. At the head, I don't think so.


 Bee was able to throw a sword a considerable distance before Amaterasu was first used, so either he intercepts the attack with a sword, tentacle, or Itachi gets hit preemptively(would've happened had it not been for Nagato).



> I don't see how Bee can win without Bijuu Mode. No matter what, Itachi can dodge whatever is thrown at him. Meanwhile Itachi can time his Susano'o Arm just right so that he grabs Bee out of whatever movements he is doing.



And Gyuki would dwarf Susanoo and tentacles block Totsuka, while Gyuki starts to use his whirlwind and since Itachi is anchored to the ground(much alike Danzo vs Sasuke) Susanoo would get ripped off and Itachi would get killed by debris.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 5, 2014)

asstonine said:


> So what?  He was still on par with his old hebi sasuke self!



Not really; Hebi Sasuke had a counter to Amaterasu, which was the only MS Jutsu that Taka Sasuke could use at that time. Hebi Sasuke was also monstrously more powerful in general thanks to the Juin's Senjutsu chakra.



> Fact is the MS was the crutch that allowed him to limp away with his tail btn his legs.



Technically it was B who stayed hiding until Sasuke left.



> Usually A>B>C doesn't work, but seeing as these guys are nearly identical it kind of does.
> 
> Even IF you wanted to argue otherwise, the level of rape that Bee handed out removes any level of doubt in the difference in them.



But B admitted that Sasuke was one of the strongest opponents he ever faced, and the Hachibi acknowledged that he lost a lot of chakra and some limbs in that fight. Even still, that was an injured Sasuke with no MS experience and no Susano'o... Itachi would have pulped him in seconds flat.



saikyou said:


> Why is not asstonine permanently banned?



Beats me. Everyone knows he's a dupe account.


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## asstonine (Feb 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Not really; Hebi Sasuke had a counter to Amaterasu, which was the only MS Jutsu that Taka Sasuke could use at that time. Hebi Sasuke was also monstrously more powerful in general thanks to the Juin's Senjutsu chakra.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The difference is easily made up by the MS!  Also, the level of rape Bee handed out makes this conclusion obvious!

He wanted to leave the village, otherwise he would have raped him yet again.

He was surprised he was able to dodge him, which was merely because of his sharingan!

What is a dupe?  Is that what you cry when you lose an argument?  That would certainly explain why you keep saying it!


This is the proper analysis!


xxHKCDxx said:


> What version of itachi is this,, because this depends heavily on how the battle will go,,
> Assuming that this is alive healthy itachi, then Killer Bee wins this more times than not
> 
> To avoid from Killer Bee's attacks itachi needs his susanoo,, and since Itachi is alive,, he cant really use his MS techniques to a higher extent due to the side effects,,,,
> ...



I would like to reiterate though, the only reason edo Itachi even stands a chance is because going into the hachibi mode makes him a large target!  In other words, he is merely winning, because this is a bad matchup for Bee.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 5, 2014)

asstonine said:


> The difference is easily made up by the MS.



Except Sasuke had no experience with any of the Jutsu and only managed to use Amaterasu once under dire stress and personal danger.

So it was effectively Sasuke with no MS or Hebi powers who could only use Amaterasu as a last resort.

Yeah, Hebi Sasuke is on a much higher level than that.



> He wanted to leave the village, otherwise he would have raped him yet again.
> 
> He was surprised he was able to dodge him, which was merely because of his sharingan!



They bleed

They bleed


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## N4GAmbush (Feb 5, 2014)

Now that the flames of this battle have once again rekindled, Ambush has once again joined the fight. 
Shout out's to IchiLieBi as I'll be debating with you for the time being (:


IchLiebe said:


> Also note that Bee was reacting just fine to Itachi and pushed him back when Itachi engaged in CQC.


Please note that Itachi was able to block all of the attacks Killer B made in that part of the battle. The same is true of Itachi not successfully landing a hit on B. If I recall correctly, which I do, Itachi retreated from that CQ session because he was ready to activate Koto, not because he couldn't keep up as he clearly could.


IchLiebe said:


> *What is 72 hours of torture supposed to do against a experienced ninja such as B*


I'm not sure, let's see what 72 hours of torture did for an experienced ninja like Kakashi: Click.
Kakashi also admitted that Itachi could have killed him with that jutsu if he wanted to which Naruto further stresses when he says this. (Read 2nd panel)



IchLiebe said:


> Also if you know the pain if fake and its not real then eventually you will overcome that pain as you know its not a lethal hit, much like how Orochimaru takes attacks yet doesn't scream out in pain...because he thinks its not a lethal hit.


You make me laugh... Kakashi disagrees with that statement. Unless my understanding of the expression, "GUAAAHH" is incorrect. 



IchLiebe said:


> Bee was able to throw a sword a considerable distance before Amaterasu was first used, so either he intercepts the attack with a sword, tentacle, or Itachi gets hit preemptively(would've happened had it not been for Nagato).


Please provide a scan. Also, that was Sasuke's first use of the jutsu and I think we can all agree that Itachi had a better understanding and mastery of the technique at that point.



IchLiebe said:


> And Gyuki would dwarf Susanoo and tentacles block Totsuka, while Gyuki starts to use his whirlwind and since Itachi is anchored to the ground(much alike Danzo vs Sasuke) Susanoo would get ripped off and Itachi would get killed by debris.



This post simply made me laugh. I think your forgetting that Itachi's susano'o is equip with this ethereal shield known to most Naruto fans as the Yata Mirror that can block every attack. I'm not sure where I remember reading this except for... oh, right here, directly out of the databook:

*Spoiler*: __ 





Please notice that it says, "all attacks"




What I can't get over is the fact that you just said, "*and tentacles block Totsuka*". I don't think I even need to address this error but you do realize that one does not simply "block" totsuka, right? No, if Killer B used a tentacle to block totsuka then he would get himself sealed.


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## Master Sephiroth (Feb 6, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> True but given Itachi's chakra pool and Susanoo tax then I see Bee CQC skill as being better and more versatile. He can use his tentacles to block, attack, or escape. Ink has sealing properties as well as can make clones of ink and his raiton flow abilities I see B as having the better by far.



Chakra is not an issue when Itachi only has to use Susano'o in short bursts. 



> Also note that Bee was reacting just fine to Itachi and pushed him back when Itachi engaged in CQC.



Itachi had a clear speed advantage, as Nagato had to point it out before Bee reacted to him. Itachi evaded and blocked everything Bee gave him in CQC. So just saying he pushed him back is not really much help.



> And? What is 72 hours of torture supposed to do against a experienced ninja such as B, Shit the Humans torture each other for longer and even though the people aren't in the right mind they are still capable of resisting and planning. Also if you know the pain if fake and its not real then eventually you will overcome that pain as you know its not a lethal hit, much like how Orochimaru takes attacks yet doesn't scream out in pain...because he thinks its not a lethal hit.



Okay, and Kakashi isn't experienced? Kakashi was hospitalized for what, a week? It will completely break Bee's psyche. 



> I explained above, Bee doesn't use genjutsu. And yes Itachi has, Koto A.



I was referring to Bee, not Itachi.



> Bee was able to throw a sword a considerable distance before Amaterasu was first used, so either he intercepts the attack with a sword, tentacle, or Itachi gets hit preemptively(would've happened had it not been for Nagato).



Except that wasn't Amaterasu. It was Koto. But anyway, once Itachi has built up his Amaterasu, he can shoot it quickly in succession.



> And Gyuki would dwarf Susanoo and tentacles block Totsuka, while Gyuki starts to use his whirlwind and since Itachi is anchored to the ground(much alike Danzo vs Sasuke) Susanoo would get ripped off and Itachi would get killed by debris.



The tentacles will get cut quickly. Itachi's normal Susano'o sword was able to cut straight through Kimimaro's bones which are much harder than the Hachibi's tentacles. The Hachibi is very weak to cutting damage, so Totsuka will quickly pierce him. The whirlwind won't kill Itachi if Kirin didn't.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 6, 2014)

N4GAmbush said:


> Now that the flames of this battle have once again rekindled, Ambush has once again joined the fight.
> Shout out's to IchiLieBi as I'll be debating with you for the time being (:


God be with you, you'll need him 



> Please note that Itachi was able to block all of the attacks Killer B made in that part of the battle. The same is true of Itachi not successfully landing a hit on B. If I recall correctly, which I do, Itachi retreated from that CQ session because he was ready to activate Koto, not because he couldn't keep up as he clearly could.


Please note that Itachi was on auto pilot, he was forced back and forced to use Amaterasu, which imo means that Bee got the better of him in CQC.



> I'm not sure, let's see what 72 hours of torture did for an experienced ninja like Kakashi: Click.


And... Kakashi is different, people take and adjust to pain differently. Torture is a tactic that is applied by every village and every country, I would be sure that they teach shinobi how to resist pain(much like Spetsnaz soldiers, who are said to feel no pain, from what I've seen its true, could be wrong but you also have to think that they believe that they can die and aren't in an illusion. 

Bee was doing high ranking missions by himself that usually constituted a team or squad do as a child. Bee is a prodigy if there has ever been one. He is a jin that was implanted with the bijuu after he learned how to fight and kill and survive by himself...alone. Anbu works in teams. Akatsuki works in teams.


> Kakashi also admitted that Itachi could have killed him with that jutsu if he wanted to which Naruto further stresses when he says this. (Read 2nd panel)


No one can kill another by just a genjutsu no matter how strong it is, they can only kill the person by another means while the target is under a genjutsu. I shouldn't have to explain this. Also the jin connection is based on the jins timeframe, meaning while even under Tsukuyomi Bee will see it as time goes by such as Kakashi and Sasuke showed then all he has to do is the first second he realizes he is in a genjutsu then he can break out. And since Itachi uses high environment changing genjutsu(that is what he does) then Bee will notice quickly, thus only minimal damage(1...maybe 2 stabs)





> Please provide a scan. Also, that was Sasuke's first use of the jutsu and I think we can all agree that Itachi had a better understanding and mastery of the technique at that point.


this
Even though it could have been because Nagato shouted it out(we really have no way of telling) but he clearly felt a pressure wave and I see no reason Bee wouldn't be able to react in a similar fashion. Yet Sasuke has mastered Amaterasu to its furthest extent ever shown and yet people react to it, dodge it, or block it.





> This post simply made me laugh. I think your forgetting that Itachi's susano'o is equip with this ethereal shield known to most _*ITACHI*_ fans as the Yata Mirror that can block every attack. I'm not sure where I remember reading this except for... oh, right here, directly out of the databook:


No limits fallacy, there is no way it can block against all attacks. What about Jinton? Omyouton? Swamp of the Underworld? Hachibi's Whirlwind's mechanics are able to bypass the mechanics of Yata Mirror. Its spins and creates inward force and will be able to pull Susanoo off of Itachi much like Danzo did against Sasuke. 





> What I can't get over is the fact that you just said, "*and tentacles block Totsuka*". I don't think I even need to address this error but you do realize that one does not simply "block" totsuka, right? No, if Killer B used a tentacle to block totsuka then he would get himself sealed.


You do realize that Totsuka must stab an opponent to seal them, and doesn't seal things by hitting limbs, from what we have seen you must get them through the heart and the connection must keep connected. Against the Hydra, Itachi didn't seal the Hydra by cutting off a head but by impaling Orochimaru through the heart and even then Orochimaru was able to do something(he chose to gloat that he can't die...he wasn't lying), and against Nagato(impaled through the heart also, chose to talk). A tentacle can block Totsuka or Bee can just evade, not to mention blast it to bits by using a continuous bijuu bomb barrage. And not to mention as well that Bee has superior physical power than the Raikage does which cracked Madara's Susanoo.




			
				Master Sephiroth said:
			
		

> Chakra is not an issue when Itachi only has to use Susano'o in short bursts.


B knows about Susanoo and can counter by quick agile movements or just bust through skeletal Susanoo with v2.  And he can catch Itachi when they go in for the initial CQC fight(no mindset listed, I say its IC(average setting, fits manga better, Itachi and Bee go for it everytime), and Bee is deadly IC. He was able to push Kisame to his limits(without even trying really), countered Minato...COUNTERED THE YELLOW FUCKING FLASH, killed Sasuke 2-3 times depending on how you look at it. Be has also been shown to be incredibly fast.




> Itachi had a clear speed advantage, as Nagato had to point it out before Bee reacted to him. Itachi evaded and blocked everything Bee gave him in CQC. So just saying he pushed him back is not really much help


Bullshit and you know it. Nagato pointed it out as soon as the pressure wave was released of which Nagato being closer to Itachi would feel sooner than Bee and thus warned Naruto and Bee, Bee was able to react even after the call out(if you see it that way) and Itachi was only saved due to Nagato. Then add into the fact that many shinobi have reacted to Amaterasu just fine and the speed that Bee showed(crossing the thundergorge, keeping up with A, Keeping up Naruto).



> Except that wasn't Amaterasu. It was Koto. But anyway, once Itachi has built up his Amaterasu, he can shoot it quickly in succession.


Yea it was, Koto A is activated upon seeing Itachi's MS, not using a  MS technique

Whirlwind has different mechanics and different damage outputs.
this
this


LoL Tiny Susanoo
this

Then Bee follows up with Continuous bijuu bombs


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Feb 6, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> B knows about Susanoo and can counter by quick agile movements or just bust through skeletal Susanoo with v2.  And he can catch Itachi when they go in for the initial CQC fight(no mindset listed, I say its IC(average setting, fits manga better, Itachi and Bee go for it everytime), and Bee is deadly IC. He was able to push Kisame to his limits(without even trying really), countered Minato...COUNTERED THE YELLOW FUCKING FLASH, killed Sasuke 2-3 times depending on how you look at it. Be has also been shown to be incredibly fast.



But it's not like he was able to land a hit on Minato. Bee will not be dodging a Susano'o arm grab if it's time correctly. Itachi has timing on his side because of the Sharingan. All he has to do is predict Bee's body movements (MS Sasuke could do that much to a cloaked version of Bee. Base Bee is pitifully easy for Itachi to track). 

He almost killed an injured, fresh MS Sasuke. Bee is fast, but Itachi is faster and he has the Sharingan to time all of his attacks properly that Kenjutsu won't be blocking. V2 will just simply be dodged.



> Bullshit and you know it. Nagato pointed it out as soon as the pressure wave was released of which Nagato being closer to Itachi would feel sooner than Bee and thus warned Naruto and Bee, Bee was able to react even after the call out(if you see it that way) and Itachi was only saved due to Nagato. Then add into the fact that many shinobi have reacted to Amaterasu just fine and the speed that Bee showed(crossing the thundergorge, keeping up with A, Keeping up Naruto).



Actually, I was referring to this:



Nagato literally calls it out while the poof smoke is still present around where Itachi originally was. And Bee doesn't react until he's already right above them. KM Naruto and Nagato reacted fine. It was Bee who couldn't. The "behind you" panel is often debated, but Itachi didn't even attack until after "behind you" and Bee's statement. Bee didn't attack until both of those statements had finished. No matter how you slice it, Itachi has a speed advantage here. And most definitely a reaction advantage.



> Whirlwind has different mechanics and different damage outputs.
> this
> this
> 
> ...



It's also far weaker and won't do anything to Susano'o. It hardly damaged the edo Jins at all. They were completely in tact, didn't need to regenerate. 



> Then Bee follows up with Continuous bijuu bombs



Or he gets cut up by Susano'o. Susano'o can come out as fast as Bee can go Bijuu Mode. So he can be prepared to butcher the Hachibi.


----------



## N4GAmbush (Feb 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Please note that Itachi was on auto pilot, he was forced back and forced to use Amaterasu, which imo means that Bee got the better of him in CQC.


Indeed he was *forced* back, however, I still wouldn't say B got the better of him.



> And... Kakashi is different, people take and adjust to pain differently. Torture is a tactic that is applied by every village and every country, I would be sure that they teach shinobi how to resist pain(much like Spetsnaz soldiers, who are said to feel no pain, from what I've seen its true, could be wrong but you also have to think that they believe that they can die and aren't in an illusion.


Dude, once again you screw yourself. If shinobi are trained to take and adjust to pain, why didn't Kakashi receive this training? Not only is he one of the best jonin in the leaf, but he was also part of ANBU. Don't you think they're trained to adjust to pain in the ANBU Black Ops?



> Bee was doing high ranking missions by himself that usually constituted a team or squad do as a child. Bee is a prodigy if there has ever been one. He is a jin that was implanted with the bijuu after he learned how to fight and kill and survive by himself...alone. Anbu works in teams. Akatsuki works in teams.


1) Akatsuki works in teams, ANBU work in teams, and... oh, look who else works in a team:

2) What's your point? Itachi is a prodigy if there has ever been one. He is an Uchiha that developed an extreme intellect and graduated from the academy top of his class in only one year. What else... oh, he mastered his mangekyo a year after that, became a chunin at 10, joined ANBU half a year later, became the captain of ANBU at the age of 13. Must I go further? 



> Bee will see it as time goes by such as Kakashi and Sasuke showed then all he has to do is the first second he realizes he is in a genjutsu then he can break out.


Kakashi disagrees.Don't bring this up again, it's like the 5th time I've had to shoot it back down.

*Spoiler*: __ 










> Even though it could have been because Nagato shouted it out


Killer B can't sense chakra so that would make sense...



> You do realize that Totsuka must stab an opponent to seal them, and doesn't seal things by hitting limbs, from what we have seen you must get them through the heart and the connection must keep connected.


First of all, Totsuka goes through his tentacles like a knife goes through butter, Minato cut it with a kunai for christ sake. Plus, that blade can easily cut through steel. 
*Spoiler*: __ 







Second of all, no, you don't need to hit their heart to seal them. Clearly in this scan you can see that the blade misses Nagato's heart all together. What , did you want Itachi to stab him in the foot or something? Also, Itachi can choose when to seal someone, which is why he said, "I'm *about* to seal you..."



> B knows about Susanoo and can counter by quick agile movements or just bust through skeletal Susanoo with v2.  And he can catch Itachi when they go in for the initial CQC fight(no mindset listed, I say its IC(average setting, fits manga better, Itachi and Bee go for it everytime), and Bee is deadly IC. He was able to push Kisame to his limits(without even trying really), countered Minato...COUNTERED THE YELLOW FUCKING FLASH, killed Sasuke 2-3 times depending on how you look at it. Be has also been shown to be incredibly fast.


They both possess great speed feats and I'm not going to even bother bringing this up again. Itachi has better reactions for sure though and regardless of what you believe about their speed, Itachi was the one to catch Killer B by surprise more times than not.


----------



## babaGAReeb (Feb 7, 2014)

Killa Bee will defeat Itachi wit his bangin rapjutsu n' rap bout how tha fuck he capped his own muthafathas till Itachi commits suicide


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## Jagger (Feb 7, 2014)

Taka Sasuke is barely even stronger than Hebi Sasuke. At least the latter's jutsu were augmented by the seal's chakra, something Sasuke didn't have after his fight with Itachi.

Taka Sasuke is basically a CS-less and MS-less (for the most part) Sasuke.


----------



## asstonine (Feb 8, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Taka Sasuke is barely even stronger than Hebi Sasuke. At least the latter's jutsu were augmented by the seal's chakra, something Sasuke didn't have after his fight with Itachi.
> 
> Taka Sasuke is basically a CS-less and MS-less (for the most part) Sasuke.



Exactly.

Sickly Itachi ~ Hebi Sasuke ~ Take Sasuke

And Taka Sasuke got his ass repeatedly handed to him by B.
Therefore, Sickly Itachi get's his ass handed to him by B.

See that logic!
It's not hard!


----------



## Rosencrantz (Feb 8, 2014)

The Base fight already happened and Itachi ran away so no need to mention that. So gets down to the MS vs Hachibi. Tsukiyomi can be countered with the partner method. Amaterasu can do some damage but Bee can cut off his own tentacle (as I am sure Turrin is still happy to see) if in full bjuu form. If V1/V2 form it gets interesting. It gets down to can Killer Bee actually avoid amaterasu to some degree. We saw him block with a tentacle before when in full bjuu form. Killer Bee may be able to pull out a tentacle and block and then cut it off quickly. Samehada absorption is also possible.

Susano may be destroyed by bjuu dama, rapid fire bjuu dama, or some samehada shaving.

Good even fight but leaning towards Bee.


----------



## IchLiebe (Feb 8, 2014)

N4GAmbush said:


> Indeed he was *forced* back, however, I still wouldn't say B got the better of him.


How not, If Itachi was alive Samahada would've drained his chakra in the 1 swing, Bee reacted just fine to everything thrown at him and you can even discredit the so called warning because Bee has shown to react to much faster jutsu and opponents time after time. We see the same thing we seen in the Sasuke fight happen when the Uchiha went up against Bee. Sasuke's problem was that he didn't have anything to fall back on unlike Itachi(Bee still reacted to it just fine, Amaterasu). Not one time in that battle did I ever feel that Bee was being overwhelmed and forced back.

that makes  mountains look like small hills 

And then Sasuke tries to counter with Chidori and Bee impales him with a sword much like he would have done Itachi had it not been for Nagato and this you CAN"T DENY.





> Dude, once again you screw yourself. If shinobi are trained to take and adjust to pain, why didn't Kakashi receive this training? Not only is he one of the best jonin in the leaf, but he was also part of ANBU. Don't you think they're trained to adjust to pain in the ANBU Black Ops?


No in Anbu they are thought to destroy their body before they are captured. Im sure if a Spetsnaz(Human being) can be trained to adjust to pain then Im sure B who has been fighting high ranking shinobi since a child.

1) Akatsuki works in teams, ANBU work in teams, and... oh, look who else works in a team:
[/quote]And the strongest tag team. Bee has shown to be highly capable(more capable than the Raikage) when fighting alone.




> 2) What's your point? Itachi is a prodigy if there has ever been one. He is an Uchiha that developed an extreme intellect


Please show a scan of Itachi's great intellect, nothing he ever planned played out accordingly. ALso your scan says "REASONING" not intellect.


> and graduated from the academy top of his class in only one year. What else... oh, he mastered his mangekyo a year after that, became a chunin at 10, joined ANBU half a year later, became the captain of ANBU at the age of 13. Must I go further?


He had MS before being a chunin? There's no need to, Bee has been the right hand man of the Raikage since he was young, that far exceeds anything Itachi accomplished rank wise. Also Kakashi outpaced Itachi in all of those category and even became a jounin before he thought Obito was dead. Kakashi is a prodigy...Itachi is just a whipping boy with exceptional eyes. Any Uchiha can accomplish what Itachi did, they just have to experience pain...No wonder the Leaf village wasn't going to fight the Uchiha head on, alot of MS would awaken.





> Kakashi disagrees.Don't bring this up again, it's like the 5th time I've had to shoot it back down.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


Kakashi didn't know the capacity of Tsukuyomi or MS genjutsu at the time and is also very weakened while Asuma and whats her name is standing there blind. You can't kill with just a genjutsu if you can then give me a feat.





> Killer B can't sense chakra so that would make sense...


A pressure wave is much different than sensing chakra.





> First of all, Totsuka goes through his tentacles like a knife goes through butter, Minato cut it with a kunai for christ sake. Plus, that blade can easily cut through steel.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


Whatever you want to say, 8 tails has shown some amazing durability feats during the war arc, and can also increase his size to vastly overwhelm Susanoo. 





> They both possess great speed feats and I'm not going to even bother bringing this up again. Itachi has better reactions for sure though and regardless of what you believe about their speed, Itachi was the one to catch Killer B by surprise more times than not.



Yet was never forced back to use a higher state. Bee didnt' even have to enter v1 against him, yet Itachi had to retreat and use Amaterasu on another Shinobi that was in a tough position himself already. Looks to me like Itachi was forced back and chose to take advantage of another shinobi's disadvantage(Itachi is on autopilot), which is good teamwork not going to lie, but leads me to believe that he couldn't take Bee. And Bee can block amaterasu with a tentacle then hit Itachi with the flaming tentacle or just cut it off.

Bee has shown the feats not Itachi.


----------



## IchLiebe (Feb 8, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> But it's not like he was able to land a hit on Minato. Bee will not be dodging a Susano'o arm grab if it's time correctly.


Yet was able to put Minato into a standoff when Minato had the advantageous position. Who else put Minato in that position? Not even Tobi could in that kind of fight. IF its timed correctly? So you are saying Bee can dodge it more times than not. 





> Itachi has timing on his side because of the Sharingan.


Bee's movements are rather non-linear and unpredictable. Just because someone has sharingan it doesn't give them pre-cog but enhanced perception, not even Suigestu(a master swordsmen) could even tell what was going on).





> All he has to do is predict Bee's body movements (MS Sasuke could do that much to a cloaked version of Bee. Base Bee is pitifully easy for Itachi to track).


And Bee is caught starts getting squeezed and whip out a full 8 tails transformation at close quarters and proceed to wreck Itachi.





> He almost killed an injured, fresh MS Sasuke. Bee is fast, but Itachi is faster and he has the Sharingan to time all of his attacks properly that Kenjutsu won't be blocking. V2 will just simply be dodged.


He did kill Sasuke, it was only because of his team healing him that he survived. Cloaked versions move in linear fashion but since Bee has fought against MS before he will know that he can't do that, so he will use the cloak to increase his speed and power to eventually catch Itachi off guard.





> Actually, I was referring to this:
> 
> 
> 
> Nagato literally calls it out while the poof smoke is still present around where Itachi originally was. And Bee doesn't react until he's already right above them. KM Naruto and Nagato reacted fine. It was Bee who couldn't. The "behind you" panel is often debated, but Itachi didn't even attack until after "behind you" and Bee's statement. Bee didn't attack until both of those statements had finished. No matter how you slice it, Itachi has a speed advantage here. And most definitely a reaction advantage.


 And nothing suggest that Bee can't react to it, Bee has reacted to much faster attacks comfortably.





> It's also far weaker and won't do anything to Susano'o. It hardly damaged the edo Jins at all. They were completely in tact, didn't need to regenerate.


And Itachi doesn't have great durability, If he gets hits by a pillar or some rubble/debris will kill him.





> Or he gets cut up by Susano'o. Susano'o can come out as fast as Bee can go Bijuu Mode. So he can be prepared to butcher the Hachibi.


[/quote]Not true, Itachi has to go through the stages like he did against Nagato, or why wouldn't he have just impaled Nagato instead of breaking his arms?


----------



## N4GAmbush (Feb 8, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> How not, If Itachi was alive Samahada would've drained his chakra in the 1 swing, Bee reacted just fine to everything thrown at him and you can even discredit the so called warning because Bee has shown to react to much faster jutsu and opponents time after time.


and Itachi reacted to lightning at 1/1000 of a second. That's faster than anything that Killer B has ever reacted to.



> We see the same thing we seen in the Sasuke fight happen when the Uchiha went up against Bee. Sasuke's problem was that he didn't have anything to fall back on unlike Itachi(Bee still reacted to it just fine, Amaterasu). Not one time in that battle did I ever feel that Bee was being overwhelmed and forced back.


Itachi was able to nonchalantly block all of his attacks and then backed up to use kotoamatsukami. However, I don't deny that he was being forced back by B's assault, B is clearly much larger than him.



> And then Sasuke tries to counter with Chidori and Bee impales him with a sword much like he would have done Itachi had it not been for Nagato and this you CAN"T DENY.


Watch me....
Itachi dodged this point blank and Zetsu later commented that he should have been able to dodge the rigged part easily. There's no doubt he could have reacted to B's sword. However, if B did kill Itachi there then Nagato would have simply soul ripped both B and Naruto later and yea... lol



> No in Anbu they are thought to destroy their body before they are captured. Im sure if a Spetsnaz(Human being) can be trained to adjust to pain then Im sure B who has been fighting high ranking shinobi since a child.


I'm not even going to debate this anymore. You have no proof and this just sounds dumb. If B was trained to not feel pain then their instructor obviously failed. Killer B has felt pain, Gyuki has felt pain. Killer B can be tortured. Also, the type of torture tsukuyomi can do compared to humans isn't even on the same level. Humans have one chance at torture, tsukuyomi has countless. How many times did Kakashi die and come back? Also Itachi manipulates space, time, and matter.  Don't even put them on the same level.



> And the strongest tag team. Bee has shown to be highly capable(more capable than the Raikage) when fighting alone.


That wasn't the point. You act like Killer B solos everyone. Didn't he need A to help him kill Kisame? 



> Please show a scan of Itachi's great intellect, nothing he ever planned played out accordingly. ALso your scan says "REASONING" not intellect.


rea?son?ing
ˈrēzəniNG/Submit
noun
1.
the action of thinking about something in a logical, sensible way.
"he explained the reasoning behind his decision at a media conference"

You want some scans too? Sure... 

[1]Incredibly Insightful: 
[2]There hasn't been such a genius since Itachi: 
*Spoiler*: __ 






 
[3]A genius that had everything: 



> He had MS before being a chunin? There's no need to, Bee has been the right hand man of the Raikage since he was young, that far exceeds anything Itachi accomplished rank wise.


Just because he was picked by A as a child doesn't mean he far exceeds anything Itachi did rank wise. Not only does that logic not make sense but  A wasn't even Raikage at the time. If you want to talk ranks, Killer B doesn't have one.  



> You can't kill with just a genjutsu if you can then give me a feat.


Kakashi's sharingan was his only method of resisting Tsukuyomi. He stated that Itachi could have killed him (and at this point in the manga we know why he didn't). He was then put into the hospital for an entire week. However, due to the fact that it has never been done before I will accept your argument as valid.



> A pressure wave is much different than sensing chakra. Whatever you want to say, 8 tails has shown some amazing durability feats during the war arc, and can also increase his size to vastly overwhelm Susanoo.


Your whole reasoning for determining that Amaterasu gives off a pressure wave is because Nagato said, "This pressure". The only reason he knew that was because he can sense chakra. Whenever a technique is used, chakra is built up into that part of the body and quite a lot is necessary for Amaterasu, hence, "This pressure!"



> And Bee can block amaterasu with a tentacle then hit Itachi with the flaming tentacle or just cut it off.


B can't sense chakra so how is he going to do that? He wasn't able to react to noob Sasuke's Amaterasu, how will he react to Itachi's? Amaterasu just burns the tentacle anyways.


> Bee has shown the feats not Itachi.


I've shown multiple examples of it and you have shown none. V1 won't even help. Sasuke managed to react to it afterall.


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## Larcher (Feb 8, 2014)

Itachi wins. 

In base, Itachi has already shown he can keep his distance from seven sword stance and then buy time via luring him into basic Genjutsu until Gyuki frees him. Then enters Susano'o in close quarters forcing Bee with no other choice but to go full Hachibi... Which Itachi can neutralise with either the Totsuka, Ameterasu, or Tsukyomi.(Where Gyuki will not be able to free Killer Bee in time.)

Overall, both are more or less on the same Tier, Itachi being the slightly stronger of the two, of coarse.


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Feb 8, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Yet was able to put Minato into a standoff when Minato had the advantageous position. Who else put Minato in that position? Not even Tobi could in that kind of fight.



There was no standoff. Minato was on pace to beat the crap out of both of them. The only thing Bee did was put his knife backwards, anticipating that Minato would warp behind him. Minato could easily dodge that and then strike again. 



> Bee's movements are rather non-linear and unpredictable. Just because someone has sharingan it doesn't give them pre-cog but enhanced perception, not even Suigestu(a master swordsmen) could even tell what was going on).



Only his Kenjutsu is non-linear and unpredictable. And Itachi has already shown the feats to decipher and dodge and block his Kenjutsu. When Bee was in cloaked form, Sasuke dodged his movements stating that he could easily follow his linear movements. 

And yes, the Sharingan does give Itachi the advantage of timing. 3 Tomoe Sasuke was able to time his dodges and attacks accordingly to beat 0TK Naruto despite being slower. 



> And Bee is caught starts getting squeezed and whip out a full 8 tails transformation at close quarters and proceed to wreck Itachi.


No he wouldn't proceed to wreck anything. He would either fall to Tsukuyomi at that point or he would get crushed or lit on black fire. 



> He did kill Sasuke, it was only because of his team healing him that he survived.



Irrelevant.



> Cloaked versions move in linear fashion but since Bee has fought against MS before he will know that he can't do that, so he will use the cloak to increase his speed and power to eventually catch Itachi off guard.



Bee is slower, so he will not "catch Itachi off guard". 



> And nothing suggest that Bee can't react to it, Bee has reacted to much faster attacks comfortably.And Itachi doesn't have great durability, If he gets hits by a pillar or some rubble/debris will kill him.



Susano'o blocks rubble/debris. Bee could only react to Itachi when he was in mid air on a Shunshin. That was after Nagato pointed it out. Had it been a straightforward Shunshin, he would have realized Itachi moved when he was right in front of him. 



> Not true, Itachi has to go through the stages like he did against Nagato, or why wouldn't he have just impaled Nagato instead of breaking his arms?



There are multiple instances in which Itachi has used a higher form of Susano'o off the bat. One instance is here: Link removed

Or are you suggesting that Itachi blocked Kirin with ribcage?


----------



## IchLiebe (Mar 31, 2014)

N4GAmbush said:


> and Itachi reacted to lightning at 1/1000 of a second. That's faster than anything that Killer B has ever reacted to.


Please, go back a read how long Itachi had to react to Kirin it was a fucking while, all the while Sasuke shouting about how godly it is. Bee reacted to an instantaneous attack from the yellow flash, instant?1/1000 of a second.


> Itachi was able to nonchalantly block all of his attacks and then backed up to use kotoamatsukami. However, I don't deny that he was being forced back by B's assault, B is clearly much larger than him.


No Itachi was forced back and took advantage of an enemy shinobi that was already is distress. In other words Itachi ran away and tried to take out Naruto. Itachi was going for the kill, not to draw kotoA out. Itachi decided that he had to fall back and attack, after he fell back he decided to attack a shinobi that was in a weaker position to react to his attack. Point is if Itachi would've been alone, he falls back maybe 20meters and starts prepping Amaterasu and gets a sword through the head.





> Watch me....
> Itachi dodged this point blank and Zetsu later commented that he should have been able to dodge the rigged part easily. There's no doubt he could have reacted to B's sword. However, if B did kill Itachi there then Nagato would have simply soul ripped both B and Naruto later and yea... lol


How would Itachi change his trajectory ...mid-air? Wow Itachi couldn't dodge windmill shuriken better than Zabuza. 

AND.... you are going to surmise you conclusion based off that the manga would have been ended or in some peoples view ruined from that point on?





> I'm not even going to debate this anymore. You have no proof and this just sounds dumb. If B was trained to not feel pain then their instructor obviously failed. Killer B has felt pain, Gyuki has felt pain. Killer B can be tortured. Also, the type of torture tsukuyomi can do compared to humans isn't even on the same level. Humans have one chance at torture, tsukuyomi has countless. How many times did Kakashi die and come back? Also Itachi manipulates space, time, and matter.  Don't even put them on the same level.


Humans have one chane at torture? You wanna test that out? It ain't about dying because Kakashi never died, the pain wasn't real. Also if I were to cut off your toes little by little one by one and started to rip out the bones in your foot with a tow wrench...you don't think that would hurt worse then getting stabbed fatally? It doesn't matter anyways because I have done proven that Lord 8Tails will break him out in the 1 second within Tsukuyomi if not before.



> That wasn't the point. You act like Killer B solos everyone. Didn't he need A to help him kill Kisame?


You act as if Itachi can. Wasn't Bee trying to protect his firends the entire time or he would've just lolstompd Kisame with continuous bijuu dama's? Didn't Bee blow out Kisame's chest cavity with a lariat? Didn't Bee push Kisame to his limits even though Bee wasn't at his?





> rea?son?ing
> ˈrēzəniNG/Submit
> noun
> 1.
> ...


 And there are plenty of other genius. Being the heir to a legendary ability that awakens when you get your ass kicked or experience great loss doesn't scream genius to me. And even then Itachi never done nothing note worthy. Sasuke, Kirin. Kakashi, RKB, Rakiri, Rasengan(at a young age), Gates, jounin age. I can keep going on and on about true geniuses but Itachi is no where near them.



> Just because he was picked by A as a child doesn't mean he far exceeds anything Itachi did rank wise. Not only does that logic not make sense but  A wasn't even Raikage at the time. If you want to talk ranks, Killer B doesn't have one.


Which means he was doing the black ops shit of the Cloud village I mean think about it, does most of his missions alone(as a kid) and no rank...sound devilish to me. Al ot better than being Danzo's bitch.





> Kakashi's sharingan was his only method of resisting Tsukuyomi. He stated that Itachi could have killed him (and at this point in the manga we know why he didn't). He was then put into the hospital for an entire week. However, due to the fact that it has never been done before I will accept your argument as valid.


Yes because the other two were useless. Kakashi only lost consciousness once Gai showed up...a null technique in this case though





> Your whole reasoning for determining that Amaterasu gives off a pressure wave is because Nagato said, "This pressure". The only reason he knew that was because he can sense chakra. Whenever a technique is used, chakra is built up into that part of the body and quite a lot is necessary for Amaterasu, hence, "This pressure!"


Raikage can't sense chakra yet he dodged it.





> B can't sense chakra so how is he going to do that? He wasn't able to react to noob Sasuke's Amaterasu, how will he react to Itachi's? Amaterasu just burns the tentacle anyways.


It was his first time seeing it, and he could have came back up out of the water and finished Sasuke off, he used that chance not to escape Taka, but to escape the village.


> I've shown multiple examples of it and you have shown none. V1 won't even help. Sasuke managed to react to it afterall.



And Sasuke used MS genjutsu...Amaterasu isn't one shotting a cloaked Bee nor stopping him in its tacks... and then got stomped by a lariat.


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## IchLiebe (Mar 31, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> There was no standoff. Minato was on pace to beat the crap out of both of them. The only thing Bee did was put his knife backwards, anticipating that Minato would warp behind him. Minato could easily dodge that and then strike again.


It was the definiiton of a standoff. 
Ok so Bee anticipated that Minato would warp behind him, when Bee knows that he has to have a seal to teleport to with is on kunais and Bee is unaware that one is on his back thus he was able to anticipate it with actual true pre-cognition.....HOLY SHIT THANK YOU FOR LOSING THIS ARGUMENT.





> Only his Kenjutsu is non-linear and unpredictable. And Itachi has already shown the feats to decipher and dodge and block his Kenjutsu. When Bee was in cloaked form, Sasuke dodged his movements stating that he could easily follow his linear movements.


wasn't able


> And yes, the Sharingan does give Itachi the advantage of timing. 3 Tomoe Sasuke was able to time his dodges and attacks accordingly to beat 0TK Naruto despite being slower.


And Sasuke had CS to boost his speed as well. Also Bee fought against 3tomoe Sasuke in CQC and wrecked his shit all the way back to Konoha.





> No he wouldn't proceed to wreck anything. He would either fall to Tsukuyomi at that point or he would get crushed or lit on black fire.


Itachi can't use 2 MS jutsu simultaneously, and would break out of Tsukyomi near instantly and while Itachi thinks he's under a genjutsu Bee spits ink into his eyes thus no more Amaterasu, nor Tsukuyomi, and a blind uchiha .

Itachi wouldn't waste his eye sight with Amaterasu unless he thought Bee was still a threat after a Tsukuyomi which given stipulations he won't know that bee is unaffected by Tsukuyomi.





> Irrelevant.


Irrelevant





> Bee is slower, so he will not "catch Itachi off guard".


Bee is faster, and Bee "can't" be caught off guard as he as true pre-cognition which sharingan doesn't offer.



> Susano'o blocks rubble/debris. Bee could only react to Itachi when he was in mid air on a Shunshin. That was after Nagato pointed it out. Had it been a straightforward Shunshin, he would have realized Itachi moved when he was right in front of him.


And Bee would put a sword through his eyes. Bee was aggravated that Nagato called it out, unless you think Bee was able to anticipate Minato yet didn't see Itachi jump into the air when he was staring right at them? Your full of shit.





> There are multiple instances in which Itachi has used a higher form of Susano'o off the bat. One instance is here: wasn't able


And yet not to long before that he had to progress through the stages during Nagato fight and used it to fend off Sasuke(a lil bit,partial form)





> Or are you suggesting that Itachi blocked Kirin with ribcage?



No he had enough time to prep Susanoo to be able to use it full form right off the bat because he couldn't afford to let Sasuke see it and aim for a certain spot on Susanoo. And as we know he had plenty of prep time while Sasuke was blabbering about the greatness of Kirin.


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## Alita (Mar 31, 2014)

Bee rapes. We have already seen that he has a counter to all of the MS techniques. The moment he fires a bijuu bomb itachi is completely screwed.


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## Edo Madara (Dec 5, 2014)

As seen in manga, Itachi can't keep up physically against Bee, genjutsu dont work on him, and amaterasu can be countered by tentacle while susano will get nuked plus itachi wont last long against chakra beast like Bee.


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## Empathy (Dec 5, 2014)

Bee's got the advantage in close-quarters and starting in base. He proved in their initial confrontation that he can deal with Itachi's finesse, despite Itachi appearing more competent; realistically, base Itachi can't do much damage past annoying someone as fast, strong, and durable as Bee. Itachi's base arsenal would best be used to create openings for Mangekyou one-shots. Bee's swords dance canonically overwhelmed Itachi enough where he was forced to retreat, but he won't have an aerial bird to escape to here. This could force a defensive Mangekyou usage, which may not necessarily be good for Bee unless he can get him to squander his eyesight. The Hachibi can break Bee out of genjutsu, but _Tsukuyomi's_ too fast and would kill Bee if he's caught before the Hachibi has a chance. Bee can escape _Amaterasu_ if he's in his full Hachibi form, but it would require he exit it. Samehada could also absorb the flames for him, I think. A _Bijuudama_ should bust Itachi's _Susanoo_ and probably kill him, but if not, a charged one or _Renzoku Bijuudama_ certainly would. But I can't see Bee managing to fire those off before Itachi can preempt him with _Amaterasu_, or seal him with _Susanoo's_ _Totsuka no Tsurugi_. Bee's best chance would be to kill Itachi earlier if he can connect a version one or two _rariatto_ in close-quarters, or possibly corner him with his sword dance, before Itachi is forced to use his Mangekyou. Itachi would probably win more often than not with high difficulty.


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## ARGUS (Dec 6, 2014)

Killer Bee wins this 

 - He has already showed to be capable of reacting to amaterasu, and blocks the flames with his tentacles and proceeds to cut it off before any damage is being dealt, 

 - Once the flames are disposed, Bee proceeeds to fire off TBB, or Bijuu Wave and proceeds to eradicate itachis susanoo and itachi along with it, especially whenn nothing short of PS is tanking a TBB, meaning that itachi dies here, 

  - Totsuka blade is either blocked with bees tentacles or he simply evades it seeing how bee in his hachibi form even managed to evade the juubi beam something thats much much faster than totsuka blade, 

 - bee can also just outlast him through his V2 form, which shits on amaterasu and helps him evade all of itachis susanoo based attacks, and with itachi sufferring from the drawbacks of overusing his MS (which he needs here), means that bee definitely wins this,


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## sabre320 (Dec 6, 2014)

Empathy said:


> Bee's got the advantage in close-quarters and starting in base. He proved in their initial confrontation that he can deal with Itachi's finesse, despite Itachi appearing more competent; realistically, base Itachi can't do much damage past annoying someone as fast, strong, and durable as Bee. Itachi's base arsenal would best be used to create openings for Mangekyou one-shots. Bee's swords dance canonically overwhelmed Itachi enough where he was forced to retreat, but he won't have an aerial bird to escape to here. This could force a defensive Mangekyou usage, which may not necessarily be good for Bee unless he can get him to squander his eyesight. The Hachibi can break Bee out of genjutsu, but _Tsukuyomi's_ too fast and would kill Bee if he's caught before the Hachibi has a chance. Bee can escape _Amaterasu_ if he's in his full Hachibi form, but it would require he exit it. Samehada could also absorb the flames for him, I think. A _Bijuudama_ should bust Itachi's _Susanoo_ and probably kill him, but if not, a charged one or _Renzoku Bijuudama_ certainly would. But I can't see Bee managing to fire those off before Itachi can preempt him with _Amaterasu_, or seal him with _Susanoo's_ _Totsuka no Tsurugi_. Bee's best chance would be to kill Itachi earlier if he can connect a version one or two _rariatto_ in close-quarters, or possibly corner him with his sword dance, before Itachi is forced to use his Mangekyou. Itachi would probably win more often than not with high difficulty.



Itachis only real argument before was amaterasu people argued that because it hurt bijuumode it would kill v2 now thats gone...bee goes in v2 constantly pressures itachi to stay in sussano and outlasts quite easily


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## Itachі (Dec 6, 2014)

B has a perfect counter to many of Itachi's abilities. He takes out Susano'o with a Bijudama, with Hachibi he's not getting sealed by Totsuka easily and he blocks Amaterasu, kunai and shuriken with his tentacles. Not to mention that he's physically stronger by miles and was skirmishing with Kisame. The only chance Itachi has is to put him in a Genjutsu and slit his throat, this is pretty viable, giving Itachi's fighting style and his knowledge on B. Still, B has the advantage here overall but Itachi also has a chance of winning.


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## Bkprince33 (Dec 6, 2014)

itachi has cqc advantage via totsuka and bee being a giant target for amatarasu.





Bee has long range advatange due to superior stamina and a more destructive long range jutsu.






i go with itachi simply because he is more intelligent and less careless then bee.

with full knowledge and good starting distance the odds shifts in bee's favor


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## SSMG (Dec 6, 2014)

Killer b wins more time than not. I'd say he counters all of Itachis jutsus except for tsukiyomi but Itachi needs to get in close to land that and good luck to him doing that.


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## Lawrence777 (Dec 7, 2014)

Both Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu are potential lethal attacks against Killer Bee if applied correctly, Kishi couldn't of made this anymore clear than in this panel [1].

Those attacks were not portrayed at all to be attacks Killer Bee would nonchalantly deal with, to the contrary factoring author intent I'd say Kishi went out of his way to note them as attacks that _are_  dangerous to Killer Bee. 


Hachibi was capable of tanking it's own bijuu dama with it's chest, though it sustained grievous wounds as a result and had to recuperate for a time. I don't know whether Itachi's V4 Susano'o w/ Yata no Kagami is capable of weathering the same attack, but I think it would be able to given it's hype. 

Because of Bijuu Dama's area of effect, Killer Bee will be caught within his own blast if he fires it near Itachi. This could potentially cause Killer Bee to be seriously injured by his own attack. It's unlikely he will be very far away from Itachi.

Amaterasu is also faster to execute than Bijuu Dama and so can potentially preempt it. Killer Bee can counter this with substitution, however Itachi can sustain the technique, and have it follow Killer Bee to his substitute. Considering this is what he did when Sasuke ran away from the technique, it's pretty IC for him to follow Killer Bee if the first stream of Amaterasu does not hit him / is substituted out of.


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## Zef (Dec 7, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> As seen in manga, Itachi can't keep up physically against Bee, genjutsu dont work on him, and amaterasu can be countered by tentacle while susano will get nuked plus itachi wont last long against chakra beast like Bee.



Are you trolling?  

Itachi avoided Bee's kenjutsu
Itachi placed Bee in genjutsu
And as shown in his with Sasuke Amaterasu is a major issue for him.


That being said I give this to Bee.


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## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Both Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu are potential lethal attacks against Killer Bee if applied correctly, Kishi couldn't of made this anymore clear than in this panel [1].


That's potentially lethal to non-perfect jin KCM Naruto, not bee as we've seen he has many ways to deal with amaterasu ranging from removing a tentacle to blocking with a cloak.



Lawrence777 said:


> Those attacks were not portrayed at all to be attacks Killer Bee would nonchalantly deal with, to the contrary factoring author intent I'd say Kishi went out of his way to note them as attacks that _are_  dangerous to Killer Bee.


If you want to talk about portrayal, kishi portrayed Killer bee, white-haired nagato, gimped KCM Naruto and edo itachi at the same level.  Edo itachi is on another level than living itachi healthy or not.



Lawrence777 said:


> Hachibi was capable of tanking it's own bijuu dama with it's chest, though it sustained grievous wounds as a result and had to recuperate for a time. I don't know whether Itachi's V4 Susano'o w/ Yata no Kagami is capable of weathering the same attack, but I think it would be able to given it's hype.
> 
> Because of Bijuu Dama's area of effect, Killer Bee will be caught within his own blast if he fires it near Itachi. This could potentially cause Killer Bee to be seriously injured by his own attack. It's unlikely he will be very far away from Itachi.


Bee would make it so that his bijuudama travels with susanoo and explodes far away, or he'd fire it in a laser, or he'd fire it with enough velocity that it'd explode outward.



Lawrence777 said:


> Amaterasu is also faster to execute than Bijuu Dama and so can potentially preempt it. Killer Bee can counter this with substitution, however Itachi can sustain the technique, and have it follow Killer Bee to his substitute. Considering this is what he did when Sasuke ran away from the technique, it's pretty IC for him to follow Killer Bee if the first stream of Amaterasu does not hit him / is substituted out of.


Amaterasu isn't pre-empting a bijuudama, they've both been shown to be formed and fired nigh instantly.  The difference is that itachi isn't oneshotting bee with amaterasu while bee oneshots itachi with machinegun dama.  

Plus, amaterasu isn't a long-range tech, bijuudama is, and bee can just position his body between his tail and itachi so that itachi can't catch bee in his LoS.  Even if itachi does catch bee with amaterasu and bee is forced to substitute, this still is an advantage for bee since itachi being a living person, would have had to spend an enormous amount of chakra on an amaterasu powerful enough to affect bee to that extent on top of whatever jutsu he used to push bee into using full bijuu mode while bee still has tons of chakra to use.

Bee isn't losing against a living itachi who has to fire massive MS jutsu in order to fight bee evenly.  Itachi gets nuked or poops out and gets beat.


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## Lawrence777 (Dec 7, 2014)

> That's potentially lethal to non-perfect jin KCM Naruto, not bee as we've seen he has many ways to deal with amaterasu ranging from removing a tentacle to blocking with a cloak.


 The cloak is a pretty effective counter to Amaterasu, though if he remained in that form I doubt he could beat Itachi's Susano'o.

I don't think perfect jin makes any difference against Tsukiyomi, given Perfect Jin genjutsu resistance was explicitly stated to be the partner method, and Kakashi explicitly stated the partner method does not work on Itachi's Tsukiyomi, and Kishi then again specifically  implied Tsukiyomi would indeed work on Killer Bee. 



> If you want to talk about portrayal, kishi portrayed Killer bee, white-haired nagato, gimped KCM Naruto and edo itachi at the same level. Edo itachi is on another level than living itachi healthy or not.


 I agree with this pretty much, Edo Itachi is stronger than any living incarnation of the same character. Therefore KB > living Itachi. However, due to the nature of Itachi's attacks, one hit is potentially enough to defeat Killer Bee. All Edo Itachi gives Itachi is more shots to oneshot Killer Bee due to stamina, but he still retains that same ability to oneshot regardless of him being alive. His chances at beating Killer Bee are higher as Edo Tensei of course .



> Bee would make it so that his bijuudama travels with susanoo and explodes far away, or he'd fire it in a laser, or he'd fire it with enough velocity that it'd explode outward.


 When Killer Bee fought Suigetsu, he used bijuu dama virtually at point blank. I don't think It's IC for either fighter to move far away(a bijuu dama's aoe) distance from each other. The yata mirror will also cause explosions to radiate outward from it or atleast explode in closer proximity to Killer Bee himself.  As long as their in reasonable, In-character distance, Killer Bee will also get caught up and wounded in his own explosions. Bijuu Dama isn't something that will only hurt Itachi without cost to Killer Bee's own person, and we've seen how much damage KB's dama does to himself. Unless Itachi stupidly stands so far away he's out of the massive explosion radius, they will both get hurt.



> Amaterasu isn't pre-empting a bijuudama, they've both been shown to be formed and fired nigh instantly.


 Amaterasu has been noted for it's speed, and Itachi used it within a clear reference of time(while escaping toad stomach as the walls closed in). It's inconsistent I agree as KB did preempt it with a sword throw once so I won't debate this point much. It's higher end activation feats have been fast though.





> Plus, amaterasu isn't a long-range tech, bijuudama is, and bee can just position his body between his tail and itachi so that itachi can't catch bee in his LoS. Even if itachi does catch bee with amaterasu and bee is forced to substitute, this still is an advantage for bee since itachi being a living person, would have had to spend an enormous amount of chakra on an amaterasu powerful enough to affect bee to that extent on top of whatever jutsu he used to push bee into using full bijuu mode while bee still has tons of chakra to use.



If Itachi follows Killer Bee's substitute over and ignites that too then he's done for. Itachi can also use amaterasu more than once, considering dead man walking itachi managed three.



> The difference is that itachi isn't oneshotting bee with amaterasu while bee oneshots itachi with machinegun dama.



Killer Bee can shoot three bijuu dama in close proximity at the risk of killing or weakening himself in his own aoe. If he takes enough damage to revert to base, then Itachi can follow up via Sword of Totsuka impalement. And we know Itachi loves to use the confusion and debris of such carnage to opportunistically strike through. We don't know how well the V4 w/ Yata would stack up but my guess is as long as the shield takes the brunt of it and it explodes outward towards Bee Itachi will come out on top.



> Bee isn't losing against a living itachi who has to fire massive MS jutsu in order to fight bee evenly. Itachi gets nuked or poops out and gets beat.


I respect the opinion, regardless of how wrong it may be :ignoramus .


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## sabre320 (Dec 7, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> The cloak is a pretty effective counter to Amaterasu, though if he remained in that form I doubt he could beat Itachi's Susano'o.
> 
> I don't think perfect jin makes any difference against Tsukiyomi, given Perfect Jin genjutsu resistance was explicitly stated to be the partner method, and Kakashi explicitly stated the partner method does not work on Itachi's Tsukiyomi, and Kishi then again specifically  implied Tsukiyomi would indeed work on Killer Bee.
> 
> ...



See killerbee dosent need to take any risks here he can stay in v2 pressure itachi to stay in sussano with v2 chakra tails tank amaterasu and he outlasts itachi..bee 9-10 he has too many counters to the mankegyo


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## ueharakk (Dec 7, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> The cloak is a pretty effective counter to Amaterasu, though if he remained in that form I doubt he could beat Itachi's Susano'o.


if itachi is inside his susanoo, he's not using amaterasu on bee for multiple reasons ranging from the stamina toll its going to take on itachi to the barrier between itachi and bee.  Plus, even if itachi hits bijuu mode bee with amy, bee just reverts to V2 or V1, amy is burning the cloak, not him and he removes it.



Lawrence777 said:


> I don't think perfect jin makes any difference against Tsukiyomi, given Perfect Jin genjutsu resistance was explicitly stated to be the partner method, and Kakashi explicitly stated the partner method does not work on Itachi's Tsukiyomi, and Kishi then again specifically  implied Tsukiyomi would indeed work on Killer Bee.


Kakashi was talking about normal partner method where a shinobi had to physically run to his comrade, touch them and dispel the genjutsu with chakra.  That has nothing to do with a perfect jinchuriki who's always chakra linked to the bijuu and when one perceives reality through the mind of the other.

C was instantly taken out by a weaker genjutsu than the one that Bee broke, there was nothing that partner method in the context kakashi was using it in could have done to stop him since the affects like tsukuyomi were 'instant'.  However,  bee broke out of it, and Bee's partner method gets the explicit statement that no genjutsu works on him. 



Lawrence777 said:


> I agree with this pretty much, Edo Itachi is stronger than any living incarnation of the same character. Therefore KB > living Itachi. However, due to the nature of Itachi's attacks, one hit is potentially enough to defeat Killer Bee. All Edo Itachi gives Itachi is more shots to oneshot Killer Bee due to stamina, but he still retains that same ability to oneshot regardless of him being alive. His chances at beating Killer Bee are higher as Edo Tensei of course .


I don't understand how itachi having the potential to one shot bee means anything.  Konohomaru has the potential to one-shot itachi since itachi can't tank a kunai to the head, doesn't mean konohomaru does anything to itachi.

Itachi has no chance of oneshotting bee with amaterasu or tsukuyomi.  Totsuka can do it, but what are his chances of landing that against a long-range, mobile, more versatile, and physically stronger fighter like BM Bee?

Edo itachi doesn't just give itachi more shots, it lets itachi feel no negative affects from his MS jutsu.  That means he can spam his maximum like V4 susanoo or amaterasu while bee only has a finite amount of tentacles he can swap with, and only has a finite amount of times he can re-enter full BM.



Lawrence777 said:


> When Killer Bee fought Suigetsu, he used bijuu dama virtually at point blank. I don't think It's IC for either fighter to move far away(a bijuu dama's aoe) distance from each other. The yata mirror will also cause explosions to radiate outward from it or atleast explode in closer proximity to Killer Bee himself.  As long as their in reasonable, In-character distance, Killer Bee will also get caught up and wounded in his own explosions. Bijuu Dama isn't something that will only hurt Itachi without cost to Killer Bee's own person, and we've seen how much damage KB's dama does to himself. Unless Itachi stupidly stands so far away he's out of the massive explosion radius, they will both get hurt.


1) Bee fired the bijuuwave at Suigetsu which goes straight away from bee, therefore bee doesn't need to distance himself in order to not get hurt
2) Suigetsu is not an offensive threat to Bee, so he doesn't have to distance himself.
3) Yaata mirror would block the explosion like Juubito's onmyouton, NAruto's chakra tails, or orochimaru's rashoumon gates blocked the explosions, all instances where the blast does not radiate outward
4) Bee only took that much damage from a direct bijuudama hit to the chest.  



Lawrence777 said:


> Amaterasu has been noted for it's speed, and Itachi used it within a clear reference of time(while escaping toad stomach as the walls closed in). It's inconsistent I agree as KB did preempt it with a sword throw once so I won't debate this point much. It's higher end activation feats have been fast though.


Amaterasu has been noted for its traveling speed, not its casting speed.  Bijuudamas have also been inconsistent, so compare the high end bijuudama from bee to the high end amaterasu uses.






Lawrence777 said:


> If Itachi follows Killer Bee's substitute over and ignites that too then he's done for. Itachi can also use amaterasu more than once, considering dead man walking itachi managed three.


How is he going to ignite bee if the substitute hachibi is between bee and Itachi?  If itachi can't see bee, he can't ignite him.  Itachi used two amaterasus, one to stop sasuke's katon, the second to hit sasuke's wing, and he's going to have to use one as big as MS Sasuke's.




Lawrence777 said:


> Killer Bee can shoot three bijuu dama in close proximity at the risk of killing or weakening himself in his own aoe. If he takes enough damage to revert to base, then Itachi can follow up via Sword of Totsuka impalement. And we know Itachi loves to use the confusion and debris of such carnage to opportunistically strike through. We don't know how well the V4 w/ Yata would stack up but my guess is as long as the shield takes the brunt of it and it explodes outward towards Bee Itachi will come out on top.


Bee can shoot 4 bijuudamas, and what suggests V4 w/ yaata can stand up to that attack?  Plus, as explained before, bee will just make distance or he'd fire bijuudamas that explode outward: *1 **2*



Lawrence777 said:


> I respect the opinion, regardless of how wrong it may be :ignoramus .


I respect the opinion or respecting my opinion regardless of how wrong it may be


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 7, 2014)

Honestly, not even sure.

 My question is why Bee would go straight into his Full Form Hachibi instead of going into V2. The fact that going into his Full Form right off the bat against the Taka to me implies that it was his best choice and what even confuses me even more is how Amaterasu completely overwhelmed him. It is completely unlike Killer Bee just to retreat from the Akatsuki unless they were a huge threat. Amaterasu completely overwhelmed the Hachibi. Using that, I don't even see how Itachi's Amaterasu wouldn't even affect Hachibi. It just makes him one big target, so obviously using that form will be detrimental. 

 This is why people's arguments of Amaterasu being useless confuses me considering that If Amaterasu was useless, the Taka would've been obliterated.


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## Icegaze (Dec 8, 2014)

if partner method worked so casually how did obito genjtusu yagura
tskuyomi counters partner method

people go on about BD, why on earth would that happen in this match? itachi will amaterasu him, and its not like after he avoids it he can transform causally again

itachi will reserve amaterasu for when its needed, i.e when hachibi comes out. 

everytime it does, he uses amaterasu. killer bee escapes, rinse and repeat. considering hachibi clearly pointed out that transforming is a chakra intensive technique, i strongly doubt bee will try it again once itachi uses amaterasu 

people argue quite dumb here, what on earth stops itachi from using amaterasu. bee can block it yes!! but he isnt using BD while burning, not while screaming like a bitch

also note sasuke severed hachibi tail which made it a decent escape tactic, if hacbibi does it himself, itachi would obviously notice and light that cut off tail as well 

itachi does not need to use amaterasu till hachibi comes out.


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## sabre320 (Dec 8, 2014)

NarutoX28 said:


> Honestly, not even sure.
> 
> My question is why Bee would go straight into his Full Form Hachibi instead of going into V2. The fact that going into his Full Form right off the bat against the Taka to me implies that it was his best choice and what even confuses me even more is how Amaterasu completely overwhelmed him. It is completely unlike Killer Bee just to retreat from the Akatsuki unless they were a huge threat. Amaterasu completely overwhelmed the Hachibi. Using that, I don't even see how Itachi's Amaterasu wouldn't even affect Hachibi. It just makes him one big target, so obviously using that form will be detrimental.
> 
> This is why people's arguments of Amaterasu being useless confuses me considering that If Amaterasu was useless, the Taka would've been obliterated.



Bee never went v2 in the fight v1 vloak in canon made amaterasu useless...he got cocky and wanted to showoff and intimidate taka he didnt think they had anything that could remotely hurt him in his final form and letarip...


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## sabre320 (Dec 8, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> if partner method worked so casually how did obito genjtusu yagura
> tskuyomi counters partner method
> 
> people go on about BD, why on earth would that happen in this match? itachi will amaterasu him, and its not like after he avoids it he can transform causally again
> ...



Then thats obitos feat you cant assume itachi can repliate it just cause..he never had access to tsukyomi and it was not exactly a controlling genjutsu...fact is a rikudo rinnegan sasuke never tried genjutsu on naruto because of the perfect jinchuriki method though he could put 9 bijuu in genjutsu in a single glance..

The thing is he did not have knowledge on amaterasu this time he does and can use tentacles to block long enough to let off a bijuudama..not to mention amaterasu is not a long range technique bee put some distance with his mountain crossing shunshin and uses bd from distance..

and itachi has absolutely no awnser to v2 bee who can keep distance use chakra tails to put itachi under pressure from range and force him into sussano then he outlasts itachi


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## Icegaze (Dec 8, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Then thats obitos feat you cant assume itachi can repliate it just cause..he never had access to tsukyomi and it was not exactly a controlling genjutsu...fact is a rikudo rinnegan sasuke never tried genjutsu on naruto because of the perfect jinchuriki method though he could put 9 bijuu in genjutsu in a single glance..
> 
> The thing is he did not have knowledge on amaterasu this time he does and can use tentacles to block long enough to let off a bijuudama..not to mention amaterasu is not a long range technique bee put some distance with his mountain crossing shunshin and uses bd from distance..
> 
> and itachi has absolutely no awnser to v2 bee who can keep distance use chakra tails to put itachi under pressure from range and force him into sussano then he outlasts itachi



itachi answer to V2 is very simple V4 susanoo. if rib cage can tank Ei strikes. V4 susanoo is going to be tanking V2 for sport. killer bee worst possible move is to go V2 against itachi susanoo. would be comical, one he isnt too fast to track 2, i do not see why a sealing sword cant seal him. Even if not completely i imagine it would do to bee what preta did, absorb V2 shroud. 

Itachi has already showed against kabuto that mind control through tskuyomi is very possible. he had kabuto tell him the seals to undo ET. he control him like a puppet. yes itahci never genjutsu a jin, he however never tried. as for sasuke not genjutsu naruto, sasuke doesnt have tskuyomi. 

even after having the rinnegan it still doesnt make him a better genjtusu user, or shisui wont be hailed as the best genjutsu user with the most powerful genjutsu 

bee used his tentacles to block the first time and based on how he was screaming like a bitch i doubt he can let off a BD which requires focus 

kurotsuchi dad was apple to toppe juubi and have juubi misfire BD, why does anyone believe itachi cant simply use susanoo, to trip up hachibi and have him misfire. it isnt black and white

yes itachi cant tank a BD, he however can prevent it from sun up to sun down .

as for bee using a shunshin to get far away to use it. lol good luck with that, if he is in itachi LoS he gets lit up or genjutsu. Amaterasu despite the 0-5m restriction has shown to reach much further targets. 

it would be like me saying budda reach is 5-10m cuz thats whats in the databook. despite it tower over kyuubi, its finger alone is over 10m.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 8, 2014)

sabre320 said:


> Bee never went v2 in the fight v1 vloak in canon made amaterasu useless...he got cocky and wanted to showoff and intimidate taka he didnt think they had anything that could remotely hurt him in his final form and letarip...



 That's a V1 Cloak that was enhanced by the Sage of the Six Path's power. During the fight with KCM Naruto and B vs. Itachi and Nagato shows that Naruto was concerned for Bee if Itachi ever used Amaterasu or Tsukyomi, so yes, Amaterasu is a threat.

 Besides, why would Bee not be concerned about the Taka knowing full well that they're the Taka and after the Tailed Beasts? No sense why he wouldn't kill them unless he couldn't IMO. Amaterasu just seemed too overwhelming in that situation.


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## Jυstin (Dec 8, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> itahci never genjutsu a jin, he however never tried



Actually he did, and he succeeded too. Bee didn't realize he was in Genjutsu until Itachi burst into crows in front of him. I'd assume if Bee knew Itachi could make crow clones, he wouldn't have been so quick to suspect it was Genjutsu.

On top of that, he pulled off that quick Genjutsu in the middle of a counterattack that he initiated mid-dodge. He basically jutsu-blitzed the hell out of Bee during a single dodge.

Not disagreeing with your post at all. Just clarifying to help your point.


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## Icegaze (Dec 8, 2014)

Jυstin said:


> Actually he did, and he succeeded too. Bee didn't realize he was in Genjutsu until Itachi burst into crows in front of him. I'd assume if Bee knew Itachi could make crow clones, he wouldn't have been so quick to suspect it was Genjutsu.
> 
> On top of that, he pulled off that quick Genjutsu in the middle of a counterattack that he initiated mid-dodge. He basically jutsu-blitzed the hell out of Bee during a single dodge.
> 
> Not disagreeing with your post at all. Just clarifying to help your point.



lol thanks 
it doesnt help my point though 

i was talking about active mind control like obito did to yagura and saying it isnt impossible for itachi. he however has never tried to tskuyomi or use any MS genjutsu on a jin. 

I would say though that bijuudama isnt some all time winner here, nor is susanoo for that matter. 

susanoo can be outlasted and bijuudama very very easily prevented.


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## sabre320 (Dec 8, 2014)

NarutoX28 said:


> That's a V1 Cloak that was enhanced by the Sage of the Six Path's power. During the fight with KCM Naruto and B vs. Itachi and Nagato shows that Naruto was concerned for Bee if Itachi ever used Amaterasu or Tsukyomi, so yes, Amaterasu is a threat.
> 
> Besides, why would Bee not be concerned about the Taka knowing full well that they're the Taka and after the Tailed Beasts? No sense why he wouldn't kill them unless he couldn't IMO. Amaterasu just seemed too overwhelming in that situation.



That was a v1 1tailed cloak given to a base exhausted nearly helpless naruto by kurama who was also running empty,.....did you see bee in the fight dude was messing around...got cocky and messed up same as he messed up when going cqc vs nagato


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