# Hebi Sasuke vs Three Paths of Pain



## Symmetry (Jun 1, 2022)

Location is Hidden Rain Village

Knowledge is none for Sasuke, general knowledge & rep for Pain

Same 3 Paths Jman fought

Distance is 25 metres

Can Sasuke clutch a win?

Begin!


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 1, 2022)

Preta negs all his Ninjutsu (barring Kirin), Human Path mauls him in CQC, and Animal just chills or throws in the Chameleon to bind Sasuke. 

Pain stomps.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Symmetry (Jun 1, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Human Path mauls him in CQC,


What about CS2?

Sasuke has CS2 amped binding snake glare & CS2 amped Chidori Nagashi for Human. Preta can absorb Nagashi for himself but can’t save Human, & Preta can’t even absorb the snake summons 

Manda is also here as well


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## Shazam (Jun 1, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Location is Hidden Rain Village
> 
> Knowledge is none for Sasuke, general knowledge & rep for Pain
> 
> ...


Oh, without intel, Sasuke is getting beat up pretty bad. He will waste a ton of attacks on Preta and Cerberus. In fact I don’t even know how he’s going to manage against Cerberus as it is. And he’s not going to be able to use Kirin his best move either. Not only that but genjutsu is going to be useless. And lastly, any feints or blitz attempts will be shut down by shared vision.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 1, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> What about CS2?
> 
> Sasuke has CS2 amped binding snake glare & CS2 amped Chidori Nagashi for Human. Preta can absorb Nagashi for himself but can’t save Human, & Preta can’t even absorb the snake summons
> 
> Manda is also here as well



An inferior form of SM. Jiraiya at least has (imperfect) SM, Sasuke has a knockoff version.

CS2 amped Snake Glare lacks feats. Human can dodge Nagashi and kill the snakes.

Cerberus >>> Manda.


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## Symmetry (Jun 1, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> An inferior form of SM. Jiraiya at least has (imperfect) SM, Sasuke has a knockoff version.


There’s no hard proof it’s an inferior amp though 

DB says it amps Jman’s ninjutsu by over 10 times 

It’s stated the curse mark amps Sasuke by over ten times 

Pretty convenient that they have the exact same multiplier statement for them 


Aegon Targaryen said:


> CS2 amped Snake Glare lacks feats.


fair 

Base binding snake glare from Sasuke did blitz CS1 Jugo tho

I’d assume a CS2 binding snake glare > Sickness nerfed Kn4 Oro’s binding snake glare, and that one outsped and overpowered a Kn4 chakra arm


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 1, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> There’s no hard proof it’s an inferior amp though



Kabuto straight up dismisses CS2 as a temporary powerup or imitation. SM, even that of Jiraiya, is treated as the real thing.



Symmetry said:


> DB says it amps Jman’s ninjutsu by over 10 times
> 
> It’s stated the curse mark amps Sasuke by over ten times
> 
> Pretty convenient that they have the exact same multiplier statement for them



12x and 15x are both over 10 times, for instance.



Symmetry said:


> fair
> 
> Base binding snake glare from Sasuke did blitz CS1 Jugo tho



Human Path negs that fodder  



Symmetry said:


> I’d assume a CS2 binding snake glare > Sickness nerfed Kn4 Oro’s binding snake glare, and that one outsped and overpowered a Kn4 chakra arm



I disagree tbh. Sasuke does not scale to Oro like that.


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## Symmetry (Jun 1, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kabuto straight up dismisses CS2 as a temporary powerup or imitation.


Kabuto dismissing CS doesn’t matter as Kabuto is a superior sage to Jiriaya regardless

& Kabuto is right, CS is a temporary buff, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t as potent as an imperfect SM 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> SM, even that of Jiraiya, is treated as the real thing.


It’s treated as an imperfect form of the real thing 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> 12x and 15x are both over 10 times, for instance.


Indeed, but there’s no hard proof Jman’s is the 15 and Sasuke’s is the 12.

& a perfect Sage claiming superiority to it doesn’t backtrack to the inferior sage in Jman 


I just find it to be a huge coincidence they both get the same statement

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 1, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Kabuto dismissing CS doesn’t matter as Kabuto is a superior sage to Jiriaya regardless
> 
> & Kabuto is right, CS is a temporary buff, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t as potent as an imperfect SM



CS2 users are not even Sages though.



Symmetry said:


> It’s treated as an imperfect form of the real thing



Imperfect > imitation.



Symmetry said:


> Indeed, but there’s no hard proof Jman’s is the 15 and Sasuke’s is the 12



There is, though the numbers may be closer.



Symmetry said:


> & a perfect Sage claiming superiority to it doesn’t backtrack to the inferior sage in Jman
> 
> I just find it to be a huge coincidence they both get the same statement



I don't. They can be comparable, not equal.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jun 3, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Preta is not a concern for Sasuke whatsoever, he usually mixes physical attacks in with Ninjutsu anyway (Chidori Katana, Raiton shuriken) or just outright elects to physically bully opponents with straight up Kenjutsu anyway as he did to both Deidara/Tobi AND Itachi. The most troubke Preta will give him is likely eating 1 Chidori ot Katon or something and Sasuke will then know exactly what to do to trainwreck him.
> 
> Hes very well suited to combatting Animal path as well. Chameleon doesnt have feats to suggest it can hide from enhanced senses (in fact its directly found as a result of its scent, and Sharingan has feats of seeing through low level invisibility Jutsu even in lower states) and not to mention Sasuke has the infamous "snake sensing" the sannin band are always on about. Hes also got Genjutsu to shit on the summons anyway, as well as Manda/Aoda to back him up.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 3, 2022)

*Sasuke, mid-high diff*

He's _way_ more intelligent and observant than Jiraiya when it comes to gauging his opponents; see the way he picked apart Deidara's tactics and moveset entirely in their scuffle

He won't waste more than a tech figuring out what Preta or Animal are about or indeed, that the Paths can only use one ability. Once that's hashed out, it's all downhill for Pain

Human Path gets Eisō'ed low-diff
Preta gets a shuriken makeover 

Summons go to sleep from genjutsu, and if not Manda/Aoda easily dominate most of the pack, Cerberus included

Sasuke's 3T will easily locate the Chameleon, and it's diced apart by Chidori, variants, or incinerated by Katon. Tbh, all Sasuke needs to do is ride atop Manda and direct him to wherever the vastly slower Chameleon is and  Animal ends up mulched in the serpent's digestive tract

I'm not even seeing the need for Kirin here if I'm honest. Sasuke is highly skilled in taijutsu, counters summons hard, and has a backup amp if need be

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 2 | Disagree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jun 3, 2022)

Nice to see the sannin stans still coping over the fact weaker CSs than Sasukes have IDENTICAL STATED AMPS as Jiraiyas IMPERFECT SM btw

The kids just not far behind the old man and yall need to square that circle some day

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Disagree 2


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 3, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Nice to see the sannin stans still coping over the fact weaker CSs than Sasukes have IDENTICAL STATED AMPS as Jiraiyas IMPERFECT SM btw
> 
> The kids just not far behind the old man and yall need to square that circle some day


He's straight up stronger than Jiraiya but most aren't ready for that convo



Feats and portrayal dictate it

Reactions: Funny 2 | Disagree 1


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## Ludi (Jun 3, 2022)

I have Sasuke losing to the 3, around high diff, but beating any path individually (besides full power Deva), struggling by far the most with animal path. But not because they are too fast or anything. I just think the 3 together would be overwhelming him in these stips (like no knowledge)


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## Mithos (Jun 3, 2022)

Sasuke gets murdered. 

His Fire Style and Chidori variants are completely negated by Preta Path, while close combat is a no-go thanks to the Shared Vision. If even Sage Jiraiya couldn’t face them up close without getting flanked, Sasuke fares worse as he has worse physical stats and no Ma & Pa to help bail him out (e.g., with the smoke screen). Sasuke doesn’t live very long at all. He almost died to Deidara, a junior member of the Akatsuki portrayed as much weaker than those three Paths. 

Pain wins.

Reactions: Agree 5 | Optimistic 1


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## Symmetry (Jun 3, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> CS2 users are not even Sages though.


On who’s authority?

Sasuke’s susanoo, when amped by the CS, is called a senjutsu susanoo.

Also, not being classified as a “sage” doesn’t imply the amp is less, it can just be an alternative method to receiving the buff 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Imperfect > imitation.


That’s an opinion 

Imitation of perfection and imperfection can be equal 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> There is


No hard proof no 

Otherwise you’d have posted the hard proof 

As it stands all we know is both have a <10X amp 

That’s *all *we know and anything else is speculation 

Sure it’s possible Jman’s amp is better but it’s also possible the other way around 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> They can be comparable, not equal.


True, but comparable implies close in power.


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## Symmetry (Jun 3, 2022)

ATastyMuffin said:


> He's straight up stronger than Jiraiya but most aren't ready for that convo


No he really isn’t 



ATastyMuffin said:


> Feats and portrayal dictate it


Not when Sasuke admits inferiority to the guy Jman is stated on par with


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 3, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> On who’s authority?



Kishimoto's. Jiraiya is considered a Sage, Sasuke and Juugo are not. 



Symmetry said:


> Sasuke’s susanoo, when amped by the CS, is called a senjutsu susanoo.



Using Senjutsu =/ being a Sage.



Symmetry said:


> Also, not being classified as a “sage” doesn’t imply the amp is less, it can just be an alternative method to receiving the buff



It does, lol. That's why Kabuto belittles it as an imitation or a temporary power-up. 



Symmetry said:


> That’s an opinion



A fact.



Symmetry said:


> Imitation of perfection and imperfection can be equal



Not implied to be the case here.



Symmetry said:


> No hard proof no
> 
> Otherwise you’d have posted the hard proof



Not necessary  



Symmetry said:


> As it stands all we know is both have a >10X amp



Fixed. 



Symmetry said:


> That’s *all *we know and anything else is speculation



Not really, no.



Symmetry said:


> Sure it’s possible Jman’s amp is better but it’s also possible the other way around



Nah. Jiraiya's is better.



Symmetry said:


> True, but comparable implies close in power.



I can live with that.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 3, 2022)

"Over ten times stronger" is just generic "oh wow" hype. It's not even trying to be precise.

Even the Sound Four's Seals are stated to make them over ten times stronger despite being weaker than Sasuke and Kimimaro's.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3 | Useful 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 3, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> "Over ten times stronger" is just generic "oh wow" hype. It's not even trying to be precise.
> 
> Even the Sound Four's Seals are stated to make them over ten times stronger despite being weaker than Sasuke and Kimimaro's.



True. It could theoretically even be 20x stronger.


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## Shazam (Jun 3, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> True. It could theoretically even be 20x stronger.


Sure if you’re insinuating their base forms are 20x weaker than their opponents they’ve faced, have fun explaining that

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 4, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Sure if you’re insinuating their base forms are 20x weaker than their opponents they’ve faced, have fun explaining that



I personally don't know if the numbers work that way, Juicy. I am talking about comparative stat boosts more so than actual, anyway.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Speedyamell (Jun 4, 2022)

Sasuke's ass gets roded up. Which is not the best cuz he already got a stick up there...
Shared vision means sasuke gets fucked in cqc. Preta means ninjutsu is useless and animal path means sasuke also has to waste chakra on summons amidst all that

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Jun 4, 2022)

dog solos

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 4, 2022)

Hebi sauce should actually loose if pain used it’s full arsenal
However if pain fights like it fought Jiriaya sasuke should win

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## LostSelf (Jun 4, 2022)

Depends how things work here. Not sure if his Sharingan can see the Chameleon because it seemed as if Itachi couldn't see it when Nagato ambushed him, and Naruto had given them warning about him being on the move.

Not sure how Genjutsu would work when Nagato is controlling the Summons directly and is sending chakra through the chakra rods. Frog Song worked, however, so maybe Sasuke can pin down Cerberus with it.

Doing it to many summons while having to fend off more paths is easier said than done. Leaning towards the paths for now. He has ways to safely get in CqC with Nagashi, but with Shared vision and number advantage, Preta can grab him and eat it. Would likely end up soul ripped or pinned down with chakra rods.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1


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## Shazam (Jun 4, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> Depends how things work here. Not sure if his Sharingan can see the Chameleon because it seemed as if Itachi couldn't see it when Nagato ambushed him, and Naruto had given them warning about him being on the move.
> 
> Not sure how Genjutsu would work when Nagato is controlling the Summons directly and is sending chakra through the chakra rods. Frog Song worked, however, so maybe Sasuke can pin down Cerberus with it.
> 
> Doing it to many summons while having to fend off more paths is easier said than done. Leaning towards the paths for now. He has ways to safely get in CqC with Nagashi, but with Shared vision and number advantage, Preta can grab him and eat it. Would likely end up soul ripped or pinned down with chakra rods.


I don’t think standard genjutsu is going to work giving the nature of the pain bodies and chakra rods, it seems like MS genjutsu and Gama Rinsho which are definitely separated from your standard genjutsu would work only because the traditional methods to breakout can’t be used. The chakra rods in this case should work as a form of partner-method in my opinion.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 4, 2022)

even MS genjutsu should fail on a pein path, no effect at all. 
but it would be useful on nagato in person, imo

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Neutral 1 | Disagree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 6, 2022)

Shazam said:


> I don’t think standard genjutsu is going to work giving the nature of the pain bodies and chakra rods, it seems like MS genjutsu and Gama Rinsho which are definitely separated from your standard genjutsu would work only because the traditional methods to breakout can’t be used. The chakra rods in this case should work as a form of partner-method in my opinion.


What statements separate frog song from standard genjutsu 
I am confused 
Are you saying clam mist or bringer of darkness wouldn’t work for example or magen onsa ? 
the only genjutsu ever separated from standard are tskuyomi and koto because both literally cannot be broken by normal methods 
At least according to the author

Reactions: Informative 1


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 6, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> What statements separate frog song from standard genjutsu


all of them, along w/ the feats


MHA massive fan said:


> I am confused
> Are you saying clam mist or bringer of darkness wouldn’t work for example or magen onsa ?


flute and darkness are standard so they will not work
clam might work since its medium is external but may not work since nagato isnt present...dunno

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mithos (Jun 6, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> What statements separate frog song from standard genjutsu
> I am confused
> Are you saying clam mist or bringer of darkness wouldn’t work for example or magen onsa ?
> the only genjutsu ever separated from standard are tskuyomi and koto because both literally cannot be broken by normal methods
> At least according to the author


Frog Song was stated to completely “paralyze the mind.” That’s a level much higher than the effects we’ve seen from any standard or 3T Genjutsu. If the mind is paralyzed, there is no chance of escaping since the target can’t do anything at all. Nagato even called it extraordinary/fearsome. 

And, in fact, Tsukuyomi has been broken on panel by Sasuke. We know the Rinnegan is a superior eye power to the Sharingan; and when ET Itachi, Bee, and Naruto faced ET Nagato, Itachi’s Sharingan Genjutsu was noticeably not used against Nagato, possibly implying it wouldn’t work on the Rinnegan since Itachi always resorts to Sharingan Genjutsu. Sasuke’s Sharingan resisted Tsukuyomi, but the more powerful Rinnegan could not resist Frog Song. Even with Nagato able to send chakra to the paths remotely, which should theoretically counter illusions, was not able to free the Paths that were affected. 

If you replaced Tayuya’s Flute Genjutsu with Frog Song against Itachi and Sasuke in their fight with Sage Kabuto, the Uchiha brothers would have been done for since they wouldn’t be able to use MS Genjutsu on each other to break free while their minds are “paralyzed.” 

You also mentioned Bringer of Darkness and the Clam Mirage. Both of those are unique, powerful illusions, but neither compares to Frog Song. Bringer of Darkness was countered by Hiruzen’s expert tracking and sense of smell, while the Clam Mirage was countered by Gaara locating the Clam with fine grains of sand; however, Frog Song would have defeated Hiruzen and Gaara outright. 

Frog Song absolutely stands out as candidate for one of the most powerful/dangerous illusions.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 6, 2022)

Mithos said:


> Frog Song was stated to completely “paralyze the mind.” That’s a level much higher than the effects we’ve seen from any standard or 3T Genjutsu. If the mind is paralyzed, there is no chance of escaping since the target can’t do anything at all. Nagato even called it extraordinary/fearsome.


Paralysing the mind is impressive sure however compare it’s hype to tskuyomi and koto and you will see it doesn’t even remotely reach , which is all I am getting at . It doesn’t stand in the same league 


Mithos said:


> And, in fact, Tsukuyomi has been broken on panel by Sasuke.


And tayuya magen onsa worked on Indra reincarnation an entity stronger than Nagato puppets. You don’t suddenly put magen onsa above frog song now do you ? 


Mithos said:


> We know the Rinnegan is a superior eye power to the Sharingan; and when ET Itachi, Bee, and Naruto faced ET Nagato, Itachi’s Sharingan Genjutsu was noticeably not used against Nagato, possibly implying it wouldn’t work on the Rinnegan since Itachi always resorts to Sharingan Genjutsu. Sasuke’s Sharingan resisted Tsukuyomi, but the more powerful Rinnegan could not resist Frog Song. Even with Nagato able to send chakra to the paths remotely, which should theoretically counter illusions, was not able to free the Paths that were affected.


see above 



Mithos said:


> If you replaced Tayuya’s Flute Genjutsu with Frog Song against Itachi and Sasuke in their fight with Sage Kabuto, the Uchiha brothers would have been done for since they wouldn’t be able to use MS Genjutsu on each other to break free while their minds are “paralyzed.”


And yet we have the paths talking to Jiriaya saying you caught us .. so much for mind paralysis when they can fully talk 


Mithos said:


> You also mentioned Bringer of Darkness and the Clam Mirage. Both of those are unique, powerful illusions, but neither compares to Frog Song. Bringer of Darkness was countered by Hiruzen’s expert tracking and sense of smell, while the Clam Mirage was countered by Gaara locating the Clam with fine grains of sand; however, Frog Song would have defeated Hiruzen and Gaara outright.
> 
> Frog Song absolutely stands out as candidate for one of the most powerful/dangerous illusions.


Lol sadly the author made no such remark 
Feel free to compare what is said word for word in the manga in regards to koto and tskuyomi hype then do the same for frog song 
You are free to post the word for word literature

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 6, 2022)

wooly Eullerex said:


> all of them, along w/ the feats
> 
> flute and darkness are standard so they will not work
> clam might work since its medium is external but may not work since nagato isnt present...dunno


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## WorldsStrongest (Jun 6, 2022)

FlamingRain said:


> "Over ten times stronger" is just generic "oh wow" hype. It's not even trying to be precise.
> 
> Even the Sound Four's Seals are stated to make them over ten times stronger despite being weaker than Sasuke and Kimimaro's.


1. Thats your own opinion and doesnt even remotely address that their accolades are the same.

2. Thats yet more evidence that Sasukes CS is on par or better than Imperfect SM is in terms of attribute amplification 

Its made even worse when Jirobos statement actually implies the "over 10x" is just talking about the difference between CS2 and CS1, not even CS2 to Base.

, comparing himself to his CS1 self, not base. With Heaven CS1 already comparable to if not superior than the 1st gate in terms of an increase based on Sasuke and Lees respective performances against the Sound genin, 1st gate which is a 5x physical amp, thatd make CS2 potentially over 50x base stats 


JS

Its actually way easier to argue CS as a stat amp exceeds Imperfect SM than vice versa and theres way more evidence for that, least yall can do is admit that.

Its literally all conjecture than Imperfect SM yields better stats with nothing to show for it. Certainly not like Sage Jiraiya operates on some vastly superior physical stat plane compared to CS, or even BASE Sasuke ffs, so you cant make that argument either.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ganta (Jun 6, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> Not sure if his Sharingan can see the Chameleon



O'rly?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Disagree 2


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## Ganta (Jun 6, 2022)

Shazam said:


> I don’t think standard genjutsu is going to work giving the nature of the pain bodies and chakra rods.


  what IS standard genjutsu? And any genjutsu of the ocular variant will work on the Pein Rikudō.


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## Ganta (Jun 6, 2022)

Mithos said:


> We know the Rinnegan is a superior eye power to the Sharingan;


 No, we don't.




> and when ET Itachi, Bee, and Naruto faced ET Nagato, Itachi’s Sharingan Genjutsu was noticeably not used against Nagato, possibly implying it wouldn’t work on the Rinnegan since Itachi always resorts to Sharingan Genjutsu.




@BlinkST @Callen @Platypus 




> Sasuke’s Sharingan resisted Tsukuyomi, but the more powerful Rinnegan could not resist Frog Song.


 The ear is the first part of the body to come in contact with auditory stimuli, and eyes for the visual stimuli. So the genjutsu can't be resisted with Rinnegan or Sharingan since the chakra entered through the ear.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 6, 2022)

@Mithos why the laugh?
Or did you forget zetsu comment in regards to a novice ?
That’s what Nagato is , you know taking 3 days with backup to seal a bijuu compared to obito doing it in a couple of panels 

so frog song working on puppets controlled by a novice with rinnegan can’t even be remotely compared to an uchiha using EMS . Unless you want to make the argument that pain > EMS sasuke if so please make it so we can laugh


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## Shazam (Jun 6, 2022)

Ganta said:


> what IS standard genjutsu? And any genjutsu of the ocular variant will work on the Pein Rikudō.


I’m referring to genjutsu which someone can breakout of by using methods described in the manga, however things like Itachi’s Ms genjutsu doesn’t apply obviously so its not standard.

Also, where is your evidence that only ocular genjutsu would work on Pain?


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 6, 2022)

Shazam said:


> I’m referring to genjutsu which someone can breakout of by using methods described in the manga, however things like Itachi’s Ms genjutsu doesn’t apply obviously so its not standard.
> 
> Also, where is your evidence that only ocular genjutsu would work on Pain?


There is no evidence rinnegan is immune to any visual genjutsu 
We see EMS isn’t immune to tskuyomi . Why would rinnegan used by a novice controlling puppets remotely suddenly be immune to a genjutsu category that Indra incarnation using EMS isn’t ?

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Shazam (Jun 6, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> There is no evidence rinnegan is immune to any visual genjutsu
> We see EMS isn’t immune to tskuyomi . Why would rinnegan used by a novice controlling puppets remotely suddenly be immune to a genjutsu category that Indra incarnation using EMS isn’t ?


I mean there isn’t evidence it would work. 3T sharingan genjutsu can be broken via traditional methods such as emitting chakra into the victim or the victim using genjutsu Kai. Pain bodies are receiving chakra from Nagato as an outside source via rods, so these won’t work. Since you believe this could you explain why Kurenai wouldn’t be able to solo Deva with genjutsu?


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 6, 2022)

Shazam said:


> I mean there isn’t evidence it would work.


There is none that says it wouldn’t 


Shazam said:


> 3T sharingan genjutsu can be broken via traditional methods such as emitting chakra into the victim or the victim using genjutsu Kai


Show me a single panel of Kai breaking sharingan genjutsu . 


Shazam said:


> . Pain bodies are receiving chakra from Nagato as an outside source via rods, so these won’t work. Since you believe this could you explain why Kurenai wouldn’t be able to solo Deva with genjutsu?


See above lad ,
Also using that logic Wouldnt frog song have been broken ? Not like it happens so quick nagato didn’t realise ? Did the author somehow mention frog song by passes partner method 
Please provide this scan 

I see you being cute , perhaps because ST is much quicker than kurenai hand seal
Speed 
I see you still taking L’s


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## Shazam (Jun 6, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> There is none that says it wouldn’t
> 
> Show me a single panel of Kai breaking sharingan genjutsu .
> 
> ...


Gama Rinsho isn’t a regular genjutsu either. Go read up on how is differs from other genjutsu that we know can be released by the victim. I noticed you didn’t ask for evidence of sharingan genjutsu being broken out of via another person emitting chakra, yet this is the reason why Pain bodies won’t fall under. Kakashi stated in BoS that sharingan genjutsu can be broken so we don’t need a feat, it’s in the manga


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 6, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Gama Rinsho isn’t a regular genjutsu either.


Based on what 


Shazam said:


> Go read up on how is differs from other genjutsu that we know can be released by the victim.


The author never differentiated it from any other genjutsu 


Shazam said:


> I noticed you didn’t ask for evidence of sharingan genjutsu being broken out of via another person emitting chakra,


Because Hachibi showed this already . Twice 


Shazam said:


> yet this is the reason why Pain bodies won’t fall under. Kakashi stated in BoS that sharingan genjutsu can be broken so we don’t need a feat, it’s in the manga


It’s never stated that partner method can’t work against frog song 
It just so happens all partners were caught 
Same way if 3 people look at Itachi eyes none can break the other out .

perhaps letting Jiriaya take them out is what allowed him to attack Jiriaya once he dropped his guard . I mean that’s what happened


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## Shazam (Jun 6, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Based on what
> 
> The author never differentiated it from any other genjutsu
> 
> ...


Gama Rinsho is an AOE genjutsu, all in the area who hear the sounds are under. Furthermore the details of the genjutsu are specified in the DB about how it traps and the mind and body, so it’s impossible to breakout via Kai method like you can with other genjutsu. Your body is paralyzed so you can’t form a Kai. Go pull the scan


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 6, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Gama Rinsho is an AOE genjutsu, all in the area who hear the sounds are under. Furthermore the details of the genjutsu are specified in the DB about how it traps and the mind and body, so it’s impossible to breakout via Kai method like you can with other genjutsu. Your body is paralyzed so you can’t form a Kai. Go pull the scan


And yet trapped mind spoke to Jiraiya 
You caught us … so much for being trapped 
Ps: not denying what happened it caught them
My point is rinnegan has neither feats or hype or anything to suggest it’s immune to visual genjutsu as it’s not immune to genjutsu in any form 
That’s all

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shazam (Jun 6, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> And yet trapped mind spoke to Jiraiya
> You caught us … so much for being trapped
> Ps: not denying what happened it caught them
> My point is rinnegan has neither feats or hype or anything to suggest it’s immune to visual genjutsu as it’s not immune to genjutsu in any form
> That’s all


Pull the scan and let’s talk, your ideas and disagreements aren’t really a concern to me if the canon material is already telling us what we need to know about how it works.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 6, 2022)

@Shazam 
These are my points , maybe I am expressing myself poorly 
1. If Nagato can use partner method via rods he would have broken them out of frog song as his mind wasn’t paralysed as he didn’t hear the song himself 
A. If you believe his mind was paralysed as well , so explain who said you caught us and how was that said 

2. so if we establish even when Nagato mind is intact he can’t use rods to break out of frog song which has no time compression or anything making too fast to break them please explain why would chakra rods break pain out of other genjutsu ?

3. Going back to if Nagato was directly affected by the genjutsu because pain heard the sound then wouldn’t that be the same for visual genjutsu ? Why would that be different why would visual genjutsu somehow not been seen by Nagato ?

now if one were to be honest and answer these questions you would see that frog song only benefit is it’s AOE In regards to being a nifty way of by passing partner method as anyone on the battlefield  would hear it Anywayz


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 6, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Pull the scan and let’s talk, your ideas and disagreements aren’t really a concern to me if the canon material is already telling us what we need to know about how it works.


Same canon material got animal path talking while his mind is paralysed do you deny this 
I know you pray to the scan so you have the detail in your head 
Did I make that speech bubble up ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 6, 2022)

Mithos said:


> Sasuke gets murdered.
> 
> His Fire Style and Chidori variants are completely negated by Preta Path


Which works only the one instance where Sasuke doesn't have knowledge

If you think Sasuke, a master of feints, bukijutsu AND kenjutsu can't get around this slow fatass you are seriously underestimating him

Heck, all Sasuke has to do is run up pretending to use kenjutsu then dice with Eisō


Mithos said:


> while close combat is a no-go thanks to the Shared Vision.


I don't understand why people say this

If Sasuke was in Jiraiya's shoes trying to gank Human Path he would've just sliced his head off

Just because Jiraiya lacks CQC finishers generally doesn't mean everyone has to


Mithos said:


> If even Sage Jiraiya couldn’t face them up close without getting flanked, Sasuke fares worse as he has *worse physical stats*


Based on what?

Based on Sasuke almost blitzing Deidara with zero killing intent while Jiraiya almost lost his life to a Path that was stalemated by Ibiki?
Based on Jiraiya failing to blitz Preta Path, a guy who was pressured by Kiba and his mom?
Based on portrayal and a very distinct statement in the Databook reflecting Sasuke's considerable superiority to Jiraiya in speed?

No dice bozo


Mithos said:


> and no Ma & Pa to help bail him out (e.g., with the smoke screen).


Ma & Pa couldn't even bail him out of Animal Path's rod

Pa couldn't even bail him out from Asura Path TWICE


Mithos said:


> Sasuke doesn’t live very long at all. He almost died to Deidara, a junior member of the Akatsuki portrayed as much weaker than those three Paths.


Nope

And you're sniffing glue if you think so


Symmetry said:


> No he really isn’t


Yes, he really is


Symmetry said:


> Not when Sasuke admits inferiority to the guy Jman is stated on par with


Never happened 

We've done this song-and-dance _*literally less than two months ago*_



ATastyMuffin said:


> Nope
> 
> That's not what Sasuke said bruh
> 
> ...


And you never replied bruh

Can't keep running the same conversations here if each and every time you drop off

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 6, 2022)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Which works only the one instance where Sasuke doesn't have knowledge
> 
> If you think Sasuke, a master of feints, bukijutsu AND kenjutsu can't get around this slow fatass you are seriously underestimating him
> 
> ...


Sasuke did say he only beat oro because oro was sick though
That did happen on panel

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 6, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Sasuke did say he only beat oro because oro was sick though
> That did happen on panel


Nope

Wide misconception that's been incorrectly cited ad nauseum here in the NBD

Read the attachment to my post


ATastyMuffin said:


> Nope
> 
> That's not what Sasuke said bruh
> 
> ...


This is reinforced by Sasuke declaring superiority over Oro _in their own battle_

As well as Sasuke deigning not only to challenge but _believing he'd win _against someone whose standing above Oro was essentially gospel AKA Itachi

As well as Sasuke forcing Itachi to use Susano'o to survive, whereas Oro was walled by just 3T

It's no contest

Reactions: Agree 1


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## LostSelf (Jun 6, 2022)

Ganta said:


> O'rly?



The chameleon really look small there.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 6, 2022)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Nope
> 
> Wide misconception that's been incorrectly cited ad nauseum here in the NBD
> 
> ...


Fair enough 
Would be silly if sasuke after absorbing orochimaru was actually weaker than orochimaru himself. I mean else why attack Itachi who was clearly orochimaru superior

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Ganta (Jun 6, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Also, where is your evidence that only ocular genjutsu would work on Pain?







LostSelf said:


> The chameleon really look small there.


Meisaigakure no Jutsu = camouflaging


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## Halcyonite (Jun 6, 2022)

Weird how Sasuke can allegedly see the Chameleon when it would've been nice for Itachi to use his Mangekyo for that purpose (while he was literally staring in the direction of the Chameleon). Y'know, instead of allowing the situation to escalate as far as it did and almost letting his teammates bite the dust.

Reactions: Winner 6


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## Bonly (Jun 6, 2022)

The three paths would win more times then not. Animal path can bring out summons to cause distractions and create openings throughout the fight and there's the Cerberus which Sasuke can't put down. Preta path can wall his ranged jutsu and shared helps the paths block/counter whatever Sasuke does in CQC allowing them to pressure throughout multiple CQC encounters. Sasuke is gonna spend too much chakra/stamina trying to figure out the paths abilities while dealing with their attacks throughout the fight and when CQC is dangerous where one touch from Human path can be a GG as well as Preta path catching him and draining, Sasuke gonna need the MS to win


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## Ganta (Jun 6, 2022)

Bonly said:


> Sasuke is gonna spend too much chakra/stamina trying to figure out the paths



 Sasuke doesn't have to fork out chakra when Sharingan can asses chakra of the Pein Rikudos.


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## LostSelf (Jun 6, 2022)

Ganta said:


> Meisaigakure no Jutsu = camouflaging



Seems to pale in comparison with the chameleon, who was even unable to be sensed and had to be relied on Ma's tongue to be found. Itachi seeing it and not saying anything just to be ambushed and blasted by Shinra Tensei is also iffy.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Ganta (Jun 6, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> Seems to pale in comparison with the chameleon, who was even *unable to be sensed and had to be relied on Ma's tongue *to be found. Itachi seeing it and not saying anything just to be ambushed and blasted by Shinra Tensei is also iffy.



  tongue is a sense organ.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Bonly (Jun 6, 2022)

Ganta said:


> Sasuke doesn't have to fork out chakra when Sharingan can asses chakra of the Pein Rikudos.



That is irrelevant to the point that was said in my post.


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## Halcyonite (Jun 6, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> Seems to pale in comparison with the chameleon, who was even unable to be sensed and had to be relied on Ma's tongue to be found. Itachi seeing it and not saying anything just to be ambushed and blasted by Shinra Tensei is also iffy.


Yeah, because why would Itachi warn his very-much-alive companions of an imminent threat? He saw it and stayed quiet, cope 


[This is sarcasm]

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 6, 2022)

Yeah, I used to think the chameleon was visible to the Sharingan, but there's very good reason to think otherwise (KCM Naruto and Ma and Pa, all of whom can sense chakra, never found it that way either).

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 6, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Fair enough
> Would be silly if naruto after absorbing kurama was actually weaker than kurama himself



This you right now  



MHA massive fan said:


> I mean else why attack obito, who was clearly kurama superior)



And you


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## LostSelf (Jun 6, 2022)

Ganta said:


> tongue is a sense organ.



I'm pretty sure you know what I meant with that. But I'll take it as a concession.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 6, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Fair enough
> Would be silly if sasuke after absorbing orochimaru was actually weaker than orochimaru himself. I mean else why attack Itachi who was clearly orochimaru superior


Spot on


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 6, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> Seems to pale in comparison with the chameleon, *who was even unable to be sensed *and had to be relied on Ma's tongue to be found. Itachi seeing it and not saying anything just to be ambushed and blasted by Shinra Tensei is also iffy.


I think whether or not the _chameleon _can be sensed itself isn't really relevant in these conversations

Because KCM Naruto very clearly sensed Nagato here



"Where'd he go?" - AKA Naruto could sense Nagato's chakra directly in front of him, but doesn't have ocular abilities thus couldn't physically see him

So even if the chameleon can't be sensed, its summoner can

Really that just puts into question whether or not Jiraiya and the Elder Sages can even sense to begin with

Judging by this display...there's significantly more evidence that they cannot than otherwise

Reactions: Like 1


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## LostSelf (Jun 6, 2022)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I think whether or not the _chameleon _can be sensed itself isn't really relevant in these conversations
> 
> Because KCM Naruto very clearly sensed Nagato here
> 
> ...



Naruto was in KCM mode, he doesn't sense there, he feels malice or something like that, if I am not mistaken and rusty in that part. But goes in hand with him needing SM to sense the Raikage, so it should be something different than what KCM provides. Which was what he felt.

Aside from that, the point is if Sharingan can see the Chameleon. Itachi either didn't see it, or saw it and stayed quiet knowing that a Rinnegan user could come out of nowhere.

I go for the one that doesn't make him dumb.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 6, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> Naruto was in KCM mode, he doesn't sense there, he feels malice or something like that, if I am not mistaken and rusty in that part. But goes in hand with him needing SM to sense the Raikage, so it should be something different than what KCM provides. Which was what he felt.
> 
> Aside from that, the point is if Sharingan can see the Chameleon. Itachi either didn't see it, or saw it and stayed quiet knowing that a Rinnegan user could come out of nowhere.
> 
> I go for the one that doesn't make him dumb.



KCM Naruto can sense chakra though, and we know for a fact Ma and Pa can (Ma literally says she sensed Pain's chakra during the Jiraiya fight).


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## LostSelf (Jun 6, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> KCM Naruto can sense chakra though, and we know for a fact Ma and Pa can (Ma literally says she sensed Pain's chakra during the Jiraiya fight).



But why did he go SM to fight the Raikage when he needed to sense him? I legit think he was feeling Nagato's malice here, because he started to feel it when Kabuto took control and was on the attack, not before or after. He felt Kabuto's malice, not sensed the chameleon.

At least it's how I always understood the panel, but it's been years since I read that.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 6, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> But why did he go SM to fight the Raikage when he needed to sense him? I legit think he was feeling Nagato's malice here, because he started to feel it when Kabuto took control and was on the attack, not before or after. He felt Kabuto's malice, not sensed the chameleon.
> 
> At least it's how I always understood the panel, but it's been years since I read that.



He ran out of chakra for KCM, as he later tells Gaara (besides, SM seems to have faster sensing anyway). He did feel Nagato's malice, but it's not clear he ever felt Kabuto's. Only Nagato traced Kabuto, IIRC.


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## Ganta (Jun 6, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> This is sarcasm


Still funny. Since you madafakas beat the gun. 



LostSelf said:


> Itachi seeing it and not saying anything just to be ambushed and blasted by Shinra Tensei is also iffy


 That's exactly the problem. Itachi sees the Chameleon-summon. Would he not presume prematurely that Naruto can?

For example:







LostSelf said:


> I'm pretty sure you know what I meant with that. But I'll take it as a concession.


I ain't Charles Xavier, homes.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## LostSelf (Jun 6, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> He ran out of chakra for KCM, as he later tells Gaara (besides, SM seems to have faster sensing anyway). He did feel Nagato's malice, but it's not clear he ever felt Kabuto's. Only Nagato traced Kabuto, IIRC.



The manga page I had has Naruto saying his mode has a wider danger sensing. I said Kabuto because it was Kabuto controlling Nagato, Nagato was not himself any longer when Naruto started sensing danger.



Ganta said:


> That's exactly the problem. Itachi sees the Chameleon-summon. Would he not presume prematurely that Naruto can?
> 
> For example:


Oh the panel where Sasuke fought the Chameleon. I forgot about it.

I concede.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 6, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> The manga page I had has Naruto saying his mode has a wider danger sensing. I said Kabuto because it was Kabuto controlling Nagato, Nagato was not himself any longer when Naruto started sensing danger.
> 
> 
> Oh the panel where Sasuke fought the Chameleon. I forgot about it.
> ...



Faster and wider both. And fair.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 6, 2022)

I'm a little confused here, tbh. Why is Rinnegan Sasuke seeing a Limbo clone (something Madara flat out states only a Rinnegan can see) in any way relevant to Mangekyo Itachi seeing a Chameleon?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## Serene Grace (Jun 7, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I'm a little confused here, tbh. Why is Rinnegan Sasuke seeing a Limbo clone (something Madara flat out states only a Rinnegan can see) in any way relevant to Mangekyo Itachi seeing a Chameleon?


I’m drawing blanks too lol

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> Naruto was in KCM mode, he doesn't sense there, he feels malice or something like that, if I am not mistaken and rusty in that part. But goes in hand with him needing SM to sense the Raikage, so it should be something different than what KCM provides. Which was what he felt.
> 
> Aside from that, the point is if Sharingan can see the Chameleon. Itachi either didn't see it, or saw it and stayed quiet knowing that a Rinnegan user could come out of nowhere.
> 
> I go for the one that doesn't make him dumb.


Itachi wasn’t even In the panel to say if he saw it or not though .

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Itachi wasn’t even In the panel to say if he saw it or not though .



He was in the very same area though. Now, unless you want to argue he was blind...


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> He was in the very same area though. Now, unless you want to argue he was blind...


I simply ask to provide the scan 
We can clearly see in the actual manga he is no where to be seen in that instance 
Whether on purpose or not 
So we can’t say he couldn’t see it or he could 
He was clearly off panelled 

though he did see naraka path summon , something normally which can’t be seen .


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## Ganta (Jun 7, 2022)

@Callen @BlinkST @Platypus
Y'all coming or Y'all cumming?



LostSelf said:


> Oh the panel where Sasuke fought the Chameleon. I forgot about it.
> 
> I concede.




 I gotta spoon-feed this mada.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## LostSelf (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Itachi wasn’t even In the panel to say if he saw it or not though .





I am starting to think I'm being trolled. At least the other guy with irrelevant arguments such as "Itachi can see CHameleon because Rinnegan saw Limbo clones."

But hey, if you all want to think Itachi saw the chameleon and said or did nothing, then be my guests. Not the first time he makes a dumb decision.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> I am starting to think I'm being trolled. At least the other guy with irrelevant arguments such as "Itachi can see CHameleon because Rinnegan saw Limbo clones."
> 
> But hey, if you all want to think Itachi saw the chameleon and said nothing, then be my guests. Not the first time he makes a dumb decision.


This is the panel just before 
Though tbh seeing he saw another invisible summon from naraka 
It’s possible he saw it and simply escaped hence why he wasn’t in the panel where Nagato uses ST and why he was able to save them later

Reactions: Like 1


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## LostSelf (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> This is the panel just before
> Though tbh seeing he saw another invisible summon from naraka
> It’s possible he saw it and simply escaped hence why he wasn’t in the panel where Nagato uses ST and why he was able to save them later


Itachi saw the chameleon and instead of protecting the man he trusted to save his brother panels ago, bailed and waited hiding for a long time, risking Naruto to be soul ripped as the only thing that saved him was his tug-o-war experience against Kyuubi?

Not only there is no evidence of such an ooc act, I'd not be surprised if Itachi was also blasted by ST and had to join the fight later.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> Itachi saw the chameleon and instead of protecting the man he trusted to save his brother panels ago, bailed and waited hiding for a long time, risking Naruto to be soul ripped as the only thing that saved him was his tug-o-war experience against Kyuubi?
> 
> Not only there is no evidence of such an ooc act, I'd not be surprised if Itachi was also blasted by ST and had to join the fight later.


Or perhaps the man to save his brother didn’t need protecting from ST and when he Actually needed saving Itachi was in a position to do so 
Or did Itachi not save naruto and Bee?


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## LostSelf (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Or perhaps the man to save his brother didn’t need protecting from ST and when he Actually needed saving Itachi was in a position to do so
> Or did Itachi not save naruto and Bee?


"Perhaps the man to save my brother doesnt need saving."

"Oh wait! Omg, he does. What was I thinking?"

I like this Itachi. In tune with the War Arc.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> "Perhaps the man to save his brother doesnt need saving."
> 
> "Oh wait! Omg, he does. What was I thinking?"
> 
> I like this Itachi. In tune with the War Arc.


Quick question did ST harm him?
Second one did Itachi save naruto when his soul was being ripped 
Do let me know


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## LostSelf (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Quick question did ST harm him?
> Second one did Itachi save naruto when his soul was being ripped
> Do let me know



Moving the goalpost. You are assuming Itachi left someone as valuable as Naruto prey to an ambush of a _Rinnegan_ user only to say he can see the chameleon.

Assumptions to prove something are ok, when they make sense. This completely goes against Itachi's behavior.


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## Shazam (Jun 7, 2022)

Ganta said:


> Meisaigakure no Jutsu = camouflaging


That’s not 3T genjutsu, these are evolved beyond what Hebi Sasuke can use.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> Moving the goalpost.


I don’t need to though. He saved them when they needed saving . That’s a fact 


LostSelf said:


> You are assuming Itachi left someone as valuable as Naruto prey to an ambush of a _Rinnegan_ user only to say he can see the chameleon.


Yes naruto is so helpless ST had no effect 


LostSelf said:


> Assumptions to prove something are ok, when they make sense. This completely goes against Itachi's behavior.


You are also assuming considering the chameleon not once is it stated to be able to mask its chakra . It doesn’t even mask its smell 

then again I’ve never said if Itachi saw it or didn’t I simply said he wasn’t even in the panel when Nagato attacked as that’s what we literally see . He is no where to be found only to then blind side Nagato 

now if you think he was entirely destroyed that’s the quickest edo tensei recovery ever


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## Captain Quincy (Jun 7, 2022)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Nope
> 
> Wide misconception that's been incorrectly cited ad nauseum here in the NBD
> 
> ...


Sasuke is not rational when it comes to Itachi, this is a plot point. And it's not a misconception.



Not that it should even be needed, but "that's all" blatantly tells us the only reason Oro lost was because he was sick.

More importantly, even besides this, there's literally no point in making Sasuke argue with her and (even by your take) diminish his achievement if we were meant to clearly think he's > Oro. This is narrative.

Sasuke went through development with the Deidara fight, that's why this is seen as more reliable than earlier when he said he's > Oro.





ATastyMuffin said:


> As well as Sasuke forcing Itachi to use Susano'o to survive


The context was a fight where Itachi was already on death's door and intentionally jobbing.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 7, 2022)

Kirin should give Sasuke the edge here


LostSelf said:


> Itachi saw the chameleon and instead of protecting the man he trusted to save his brother panels ago, bailed and waited hiding for a long time, risking Naruto to be soul ripped as the only thing that saved him was his tug-o-war experience against Kyuubi?
> 
> Not only there is no evidence of such an ooc act, I'd not be surprised if Itachi was also blasted by ST and had to join the fight later.


Naruto with 360 degree Negative Emotions Sensing couldn’t sense his approach either, that’s simply how the author chose to write it. Surprising he had Itachi show up in a diet situation to save the day? No. Itachi is Kishimoto’s highest grossing character and he treats him as such.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## God sl4yer (Jun 7, 2022)

Pain wins with high difficulty

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

Though not sure why the chameleon invisibility is even being discussed wasnt the chameleon detected via scent ?
What happened to orochimaru famous heat sensing ? It’s strange the reeeh want to claim that can’t be used now
The only summon that can even be remotely useful here is the dog and sadly poison should neg it . Animal path gets low diff’d by sasuke 1 v 1

Reactions: Winner 1


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## LostSelf (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> I don’t need to though. He saved them when they needed saving . That’s a fact


You said Naruto didn't need saving. Then said Itachi saved him. So he needed saving and Itachi risked Naruto with almost no knowledge of what Nagato could do but hype of Rinnegan being the most powerful doujutsu.


MHA massive fan said:


> Yes naruto is so helpless ST had no effect


Well, he looked quite helpless. Not only got ambushed, but was almost killed. If Naruto didn't have that training with Kyuubi that allowed him to resist Soul Rip, he'd have been done for.

And you say the war could've been lost by Itachi deciding to hide in the bushes while a Rinnegan user started an ambush?

Someone as analytical as Itachi, hiding while the hope of his brother faces the, to his knowledge, most powerful eyes in existence?



MHA massive fan said:


> You are also assuming considering the chameleon not once is it stated to be able to mask its chakra . It doesn’t even mask its smell



I don't need to assume much at least. Itachi was talking with Naruto, _Nagato spawns the chameleon right on Itachi's field of vision. _You're assuming Itachi left that moment, there's no manga panel of him leaving.

But there's a manga panel of him doing nothing while Naruto warned them about Nagato.



MHA massive fan said:


> then again I’ve never said if Itachi saw it or didn’t I simply said he wasn’t even in the panel when Nagato attacked as that’s what we literally see . He is no where to be found only to then blind side Nagato



My original post was "I don't know if he can see the chameleon due to X", so I'm open to be convinced. But telling me Itachi ran away and almost had Naruto killed... I mean, he could've run away and told Naruto the location of the Chameleon, no?

He could've seen the Chameleon and blast Amaterasu on it as well, I assume?

What about using Susanoo to attack it?

No, he ran away because nothing was at stake. Of all the possible things he could've done, Itachi, Kishi's older brother, took the worst one?




MHA massive fan said:


> now if you think he was entirely destroyed that’s the quickest edo tensei recovery ever



Naruto was blasted. 
Nagato appeared behind Killer Bee. 
Was hit and stole Killer Bee's chakra. 
Grabbed Naruto and dominated him. 
Then Killer Bee sees and tries to save him. 
Grabbed Bee as well and dominated him.
Prepares Naraka Path
Is about ot blast Bee's head off.
Itachi comes in to the save.

Quickest Edo tensei recovery? I think sealing Gaara took less time than that. (No, I am joking.)


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## LostSelf (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Though not sure why the chameleon invisibility is even being discussed wasnt the chameleon detected via scent ?
> What happened to orochimaru famous heat sensing ? It’s strange the reeeh want to claim that can’t be used now
> The only summon that can even be remotely useful here is the dog and sadly poison should neg it . Animal path gets low diff’d by sasuke 1 v 1



It was the only thing quoted on my post when I said "I didn't know how Sharingan works here against the paths." Never said Animal Path would solo.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> It was the only thing quoted on my post when I said "I didn't know how Sharingan works here against the paths." Never said Animal Path would solo.


Never claimed you did 
I am saying not sure why the invisibility matters to this thread 
As sasuke can find it casually


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## LostSelf (Jun 7, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Kirin should give Sasuke the edge here
> 
> Naruto with 360 degree Negative Emotions Sensing couldn’t sense his approach either, that’s simply how the author chose to write it. Surprising he had Itachi show up in a diet situation to save the day? No. Itachi is Kishimoto’s highest grossing character and he treats him as such.



He sensed his approach. Which is why he was looking and even looked in his direction. There's nothing out of place here but Itachi seeing the huge beast in front of him and deciding to go take a piss on a tree meanwhile.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> You said Naruto didn't need saving. Then said Itachi saved him. So he needed saving and Itachi risked Naruto with almost no knowledge of what Nagato could do but hype of Rinnegan being the most powerful doujutsu.
> 
> Well, he looked quite helpless. Not only got ambushed, but was almost killed. If Naruto didn't have that training with Kyuubi that allowed him to resist Soul Rip, he'd have been done for.
> 
> ...


Sorry to summarise this speech you think something that did no visible damage to killer bee or naruto entirely destroyed Itachi body and turned him to dust


Seeing BM chouji butterfly bullet bomb couldn’t even turn asuma to dust . We are basically saying Nagato casual ST >>>>>>BM chouji punch and that naruto and Bee can casually face tank such attacks . While forgetting V1 A punch was something naruto said he can’t take head on without risking injury


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## LostSelf (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Sorry to summarise this speech you think something that did no visible damage to killer bee or naruto entirely destroyed Itachi body and turned him to dust
> 
> 
> Seeing BM chouji butterfly bullet bomb couldn’t even turn asuma to dust . We are basically saying Nagato casual ST >>>>>>BM chouji punch and that naruto and Bee can casually face tank such attacks . While forgetting V1 A punch was something naruto said he can’t take head on without risking injury



It is as if Edo Tensei were not allowed to be heavy damaged because they can't die, unlike living characters. It is as if Killer Bee was not incredibly durable, to the point of resisting Ei's lariat to the neck and overpower him. Or Naruto not being more durable as well.

This changes absolutely nothing regardless, because saying Itachi prepared an ambush _after _being hit like that, or he was sent flying further away or whatever is actually plausible and something entirely different and offers no aid to the argument of Itachi seeing the chameleon but ducking away without warning before Nagato even attacked, so not sure what the point here would be.


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## Callen (Jun 7, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> Seems to pale in comparison with the chameleon, who was even unable to be sensed and had to be relied on Ma's tongue to be found. Itachi seeing it and not saying anything just to be ambushed and blasted by Shinra Tensei is also iffy.



_Meisaigakure_ no Jutsu and Mujin Meisai are techniques using selective bending of light to make them *completely* invisible to the naked eye. While the chimera's ability doesn't warp light around the creature's body, it rendered it also invisible.




*Spoiler*: __ 




Databook 4 - Mujin Meisai]Ninjutsu - Dustless Bewildering Cover
B rank, no range, supplementary
Users: Mu

Taking on the appearance of "nothingness", becoming the sky
A technique method of invisibility like the moon on a rainy night!! [TN: Yeah... what?]

Water changes the appearance of everything, be it gaseous or solid, sometimes it distracts light, sometimes it bends it like a prism, imitating a phantom image. Mu's forte is the manipulation of water, namely it means he subdues the light. By wearing water droplets, the user of the "Dustless Bewildering Cover" technique evades light, erasing his appearance. Like water, he becomes an existence that doesn't exist....

➡⬇ By bending the surrounding light with water, the user can pretend not to be there. The mechanics are similar to optical camouflage.


Meisaigakure no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, A-rank, Supplementary
User(s): Taiseki
Fusing with the landscape, concealing one’s breath, erasing one’s shadow!!

This is one ninja escape technique among others. One controls how light is reflected around their body with chakra inflections. Donning such an escape gear, one might as well not be there at all. Perceiving the caster’s position is impossible with normal eyes, and only Sharingan, Byakugan and the like can see through it.

Concealing himself, he sneaks up behind the enemy!!

Useable on any terrain.





So what makes Meisaigakure's invinsibility pale by comparison to the Chimera's? 



LostSelf said:


> Oh the panel where Sasuke fought the Chameleon. I forgot about it.
> 
> I concede.





LostSelf said:


> Itachi can see CHameleon because Rinnegan saw Limbo clones.


That's not what Ganta tried to relay. He's saying Itachi would have assumed that the Chimera is visually perceptible to Naruto, much like Sasuke assumed that Limbo was visually perceptible to Naruto.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> It is as if Edo Tensei were not allowed to be heavy damaged because they can't die, unlike living characters. It is as if Killer Bee was not incredibly durable, to the point of resisting Ei's lariat to the neck and overpower him. Or Naruto not being more durable as well.
> 
> This changes absolutely nothing regardless, because saying Itachi prepared an ambush _after _being hit like that, or he was sent flying further away or whatever is actually plausible and something entirely different and offers no aid to the argument of Itachi seeing the chameleon but ducking away without warning before Nagato even attacked, so not sure what the point here would be.


So then you agree something that can pink mist Itachi won’t even put a scratch on base bee
 
It’s crazy kisame thought he could remove killer bee legs with Samehada seeing the same samehada didn’t even remove asuma arm


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

So is it more likely that Itachi just decided to turn around from KCM Naruto the moment the panels stopped including Itachi? Bro just vanished from existence because Kishimoto didn’t need to draw him again (in order to depict him doing the exact same thing  )


People will fr make Itachi look like an absolute dumbass to try and argue Sasuke’s fodder 3T Sharingan can see the Chameleon.




Ganta said:


> Still funny. Since you madafakas beat the gun.


Not even sure what this means.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Callen (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Not even sure what this means.



Beat the gun means jump the gun.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> So is it more likely that Itachi just decided to turn around from KCM Naruto the moment the panels stopped including Itachi? Bro just vanished from existence because Kishimoto didn’t need to draw him again (in order to depict him doing the exact same thing  )
> 
> 
> People will fr make Itachi look like an absolute dumbass to try and argue Sasuke’s fodder 3T Sharingan can see the Chameleon.
> ...


But whether sharingan can see it or not is irrelevant to the thread as heat sensing is still a thing 
Or is it only when it’s orochimaru Vs pain that heat sensing is remembered ?


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

Callen said:


> Beat the gun means jump the gun.


Not sure how I jumped the gun tbh, and I'm too lazy to find out.



MHA massive fan said:


> But whether sharingan can see it or not is irrelevant to the thread as heat sensing is still a thing
> Or is it only when it’s orochimaru Vs pain that heat sensing is remembered ?


Not for the part I read. I saw some posts a while back saying Sasuke can see the Chameleon with his 3T Sharingan. 

Also I'm not sure if a dead human and a dead Chameleon would have heat signatures.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Not sure how I jumped the gun tbh, and I'm too lazy to find out.
> 
> 
> Not for the part I read. I saw some posts a while back saying Sasuke can see the Chameleon with his 3T Sharingan.
> ...


Ok and for consistency I then assume you believe orochimaru wouldn’t be able to find it as well right 
Just checking


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## Callen (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Not for the part I read. I saw some posts a while back saying Sasuke can see the Chameleon with his 3T Sharingan.



That's because he can. Chikushõdõ's Chimera changes color to resemble their current background, and provide perfect concealment from visual detection. Sharingan sees chakra  as colors, thus negating the camouflage.


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Ok and for consistency I then assume you believe orochimaru wouldn’t be able to find it as well right
> Just checking


Probably not. Might be different if it was Nagato's alive body inside the Chameleon though. Not sure if Edo Tensei's have heat signatures.


Callen said:


> That's because he can. Chikushõdõ's Chimera changes color to resemble their current background, and provide perfect concealment from visual detection. Sharingan sees chakra as colors, thus negating the camouflage.


The only ocular Jutsu capable of perceiving the Chameleon was the . The Rinnegan vision highlighted the Chameleon despite being invisible as you can see. Notice how similar it is to Sasuke's "Rinnegan vision" . It falls in line with how the Rinnegan is hyped in seeing invisible objects/creatures: the Chameleon, the barrier surrounding Konoha, Jiraiya's own barrier, the Limbo Clones, etc.

Making the assumption that the Chameleon's invisibility is identical in both function and quality to a NORMAL chameleon's camouflage is ridiculous. With that logic, SM sensing wouldn't suffice for a normal Chameleon too? Is SM sensing that fodder?

It's also possible to hide chakra from ocular Jutsus. Naruto's transformation Jutsus into various objects (rubble, underground, etc) have evaded ocular Jutsus with the ability to perceive chakra before. Konan's Paper Ocean is stated to have been made with enough complexity that even Obito's Mangekyo couldn't see through it. BOTH Kakashi and Hinata had fought Paths of Pain and could not see the chakra threads connecting Pain to Nagato.

So it makes sense that a Jutsu that revolves around concealing the user's location would also attempt to mask the user's chakra. And this is supported by the fact that Itachi did not see the Chameleon (unless you subscribe to the ridiculous notion that Itachi "Muh saw it but didn't do anything!"   )


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Probably not. Might be different if it was Nagato's alive body inside the Chameleon though. Not sure if Edo Tensei's have heat signatures.
> 
> The only ocular Jutsu capable of perceiving the Chameleon was the . The Rinnegan vision highlighted the Chameleon despite being invisible as you can see. It falls in line with how the Rinnegan is hyped in seeing invisible objects/creatures: the Chameleon, the barrier surrounding Konoha, Jiraiya's own barrier, the Limbo Clones, etc.
> 
> ...


Ok but pain bodies are actual bodies , which bleed . So then I ask the question 
Why can’t sasuke find them ?


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Ok but pain bodies are actual bodies , which bleed . So then I ask the question
> Why can’t sasuke find them ?


I'm not sure if that necessitates them having heat signatures. I'm pretty sure they're supposed to be cold, dead corpses - something that Ibiki comments on after touching the Animal Path's face in the anime.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> I'm not sure if that necessitates them having heat signatures. I'm pretty sure they're supposed to be cold, dead corpses - something that Ibiki comments on after touching the Animal Path's face in the anime.


So they have blood are alive
Yet have no heat signatures

The very fact that they have blood coursing through their veins proves you wrong


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> So they have blood are alive
> Yet have no heat signatures
> 
> The very fact that they have blood coursing through their veins proves you wrong


And the fact that they are literally deceased, not intaking oxygen, means that the blood is *probably *different from an alive person's blood circulation. We don't even know if the blood is actually circulating throughout their bodies.

You're trying to justify corpses having heat signatures   

You're trying too hard to back this technicality when the reason we likely SAW the Paths of Pain bleed was to not immediately give away Pain's identity. We did not know they were corpses for a good while, and Kishimoto was still teasing the idea that they were humans that got resurrected by the Naraka Path (during the Jiraiya fight) as opposed to just dead bodies that got repaired.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> And the fact that they are literally deceased, not intaking oxygen, means that the blood is *probably *different from an alive person's blood circulation. We don't even know if the blood is actually circulating throughout their bodies.
> 
> You're trying to justify corpses having heat signatures
> 
> You're trying too hard to back this technicality when the reason we likely SAW the Paths of Pain bleed was to not immediately give away Pain's identity. We did not know they were corpses for a good while, and Kishimoto was still teasing the idea that they were humans that got resurrected by the Naraka Path (during the Jiraiya fight) as opposed to just dead bodies that got repaired.


if blood isn’t circulating through their body why  did blood come out of naraka mouth when he got smashed ?
Maybe he got a blood pouch in his mouth

Reactions: Funny 2


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## BlinkST (Jun 7, 2022)

Ganta said:


> @Callen @BlinkST @Platypus
> Y'all coming or Y'all cumming?


@Klue She came twice, I came last, roll the grass



Halcyonite said:


> Making the assumption that the Chameleon's invisibility is identical in both function and quality to a NORMAL chameleon's camouflage is ridiculous. With that logic, SM sensing wouldn't suffice for a normal Chameleon too? Is SM sensing that fodder?







The irony here being that SM Naruto was indeed able to sense the normally invisible creature from Jigokudo. 




...and Itachi was able to attack it with pinpoint precision even though _he's_ not a sensor and he doesn't have a Rinnegan.


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## Trojan (Jun 7, 2022)

Pain sends his dog to pick up the trash.

ain't no one is going to bother dealing with this fodder, the dog is more than enough.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> if blood isn’t circulating through their body why  did blood come out of naraka mouth when he got smashed ?
> Maybe he got a blood pouch in his mouth


Again, that doesn't necessitate it being the same type of blood circulation in a living creature. For all we know, the chakra stops the effects of decay and blood congealing over time. Why else would Tendo's corpse have lasted all these years?

But nah, stick to the delusion that corpses have heat signatures



BlinkST said:


> The irony here being that SM Naruto was indeed able to sense the normally invisible creature from Jigokudo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Could very well be an outlier considering Ebisu was kicked right through the King of Hell that he didn't see when he went to save Konohamaru. Are we saying that Itachi's Kunai know transcend the spiritual realm or some bullshit? How far is the Itachi cope gonna go?


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Again, that doesn't necessitate it being the same type of blood circulation in a living creature. For all we know, the chakra stops the effects of decay and blood congealing over time. Why else would Tendo's corpse have lasted all these years?
> 
> But nah, stick to the delusion that corpses have heat signatures


Feel free to provide evidence IT’S a different type seeint the author implies so such thing and simply shows them bleeding like normal people . 
you are free to provide evidence they don’t , seeing corpses have chakra signatures , sight , hearing etc but somehow have no heat signature . Something that everyone who can move from point A to B would have


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Feel free to provide evidence IT’S a different type seeint the author implies so such thing and simply shows them bleeding like normal people .
> you are free to provide evidence they don’t , seeing corpses have chakra signatures , sight , hearing etc but somehow have no heat signature . Something that everyone who can move from point A to B would have


The moment the narrative confirmed they were corpses was the moment that they had the features of corpses. Which includes no heat signature.

All the features you just listed were directly proven unlike the heat signature. We KNOW that chakra is funnelled to the corpses. We KNOW that Nagato uses the Six Paths technique to establish his Rinnegan vision inside them. We KNOW that Nagato can hear through them as he can hold conversations with people through the Paths of Pain.

However, the corpses bleeding does not necessitate a heat signature. All it indicates is that Nagato found the means to stop blood from congealing. Even anime canon supports the notion that the corpses are stone cold like a corpse.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> The moment the narrative confirmed they were corpses was the moment that they had the features of corpses. Which includes no heat signature.
> 
> All the features you just listed were directly proven unlike the heat signature. We KNOW that chakra is funnelled to the corpses. We KNOW that Nagato uses the Six Paths technique to establish his Rinnegan vision inside them. We KNOW that Nagato can hear through them as he can hold conversations with people through the Paths of Pain.
> 
> However, the corpses bleeding does not necessitate a heat signature. All it indicates is that Nagato found the means to stop blood from congealing. Even anime canon supports the notion that the corpses are stone cold like a corpse.


Happy to concede 
Once again for consistency I guess this means orochimaru has no way to find the chameleon as much as sauske has no way


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Happy to concede
> Once again for consistency I guess this means orochimaru has no way to find the chameleon as much as sauske has no way


Don't see a problem with that

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Don't see a problem with that


Nice arguing with you 
i enjoy a solid thought process which remains consistent

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 2


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## Azula (Jun 7, 2022)

ATastyMuffin said:


> *Sasuke, mid-high diff*
> 
> He's _way_ more intelligent and observant than Jiraiya when it comes to gauging his opponents; see the way he picked apart Deidara's tactics and moveset entirely in their scuffle



Deidara's jutsu has a single convenient elemental wheel weakness.

Most academy students would figure it out.



ATastyMuffin said:


> He won't waste more than a tech figuring out what Preta or Animal are about or indeed, that the Paths can only use one ability. Once that's hashed out, it's all downhill for Pain



It is not possible that Sasuke magically comes to the conclusion that 3 people with the exact same eyes are limited to a single jutsu after seeing them perform a single jutsu.

He will have to spend alot of time before he even arrives at thia conclusion.

You have to be a mind reader to figure out after one exchange that 3 people with Rinnegan and limited to one jutsu.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Human Path gets Eisō'ed low-diff
> Preta gets a shuriken makeover



You have not mentioned how Sasuke will defeat the Rinnegan shared vision which is one of the main strength.

If defeating Pain was as easy as throwing jutsu one by one, he wouldn't be the leader of the Akatsuki.

If Sasuke attacks any path, they will simply dodge because they will see it coming. If Sasuke throws a jutsu at anyone of them Preta path will jump in or Animal path will summon a shield.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Summons go to sleep from genjutsu, and if not Manda/Aoda easily dominate most of the pack, Cerberus included



No they don't.

A single dog is as big as Sannin summon. And they multiple every time they get hit. Manda will be overwhelmed as soon as he hits the dog 2-3 times.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## BlinkST (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> The moment the narrative confirmed they were corpses was the moment that they had the features of corpses. Which includes no heat signature.



That's circular reasoning on your part. A literal corpse would have something called _rigor mortis_ that would prevent them from moving altogether.



> A few hours after a person or animal dies, the joints of the body stiffen and become locked in place. This stiffening is called *rigor mortis*. The phrase is Latin, with _rigor_ meaning stiffness and _mortis_ meaning death. Rigor mortis is a a temporary condition. Depending on body  and other conditions, rigor mortis lasts approximately 72 hours. The phenomenon is caused by the  partially contracting. The muscles are unable to relax, so the joints become fixed in place.



Pain's dead bodies are _reanimated_. They can still suffer from things like smoke inhalation and vision impairment.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> That's circular reasoning on your part. A literal corpse would have something called _rigor mortis_ that would prevent them from moving altogether.


You don't know what circular reasoning means.

It is not my _assumption _that the Paths of Pain are corpses, it is the fact that they are explicitly stated to be corpses, and that they retain the features of corpses. My premise is not my conclusion here. All other features are consistent with a corpse - cold, pale complexion, unable to feel pain, weird contorted movements (like a puppet), etc.


The fact that the Paths of Pain don't experience the effects of rigor mortis does not mean that they aren't corpses  it means that Nagato has found a way to circumvent it. 




BlinkST said:


> Pain's dead bodies are _reanimated_. They can still suffer from things like smoke inhalation and vision impairment.


Despite outright being said to be corpses, are described as corpses, and have many features similar to that of a corpse?

Where did the Paths of Pain suffer from smoke inhalation? And vision impairment is thanks to the Six Paths technique giving them Rinnegan. That does not mean they are no longer corpses.

You're really tryna justify them not being corpses JUST because they've had techniques applied on them that allow for usage as puppets.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Though not sure why the chameleon invisibility is even being discussed wasnt the chameleon detected via scent ?
> What happened to orochimaru famous heat sensing ? It’s strange the reeeh want to claim that can’t be used now
> The only summon that can even be remotely useful here is the dog and sadly poison should neg it . Animal path gets low diff’d by sasuke 1 v 1



Good point. Sasuke should be able to find the Chameleon after all.


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## Ganta (Jun 7, 2022)

Callen said:


> _Meisaigakure_ no Jutsu and Mujin Meisai are techniques using selective bending of light to make them *completely* invisible to the naked eye. While the chimera's ability doesn't warp light around the creature's body, it rendered it also invisible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Callen said:


> Chikushõdõ's Chimera changes color to resemble their current background, and provide perfect concealment from visual detection. Sharingan sees chakra as colors, thus negating the camouflage.





BlinkST said:


> @Klue She came twice, I came last, roll the grass
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 might as well cast doubt on Sharingan's chakra-sight to see through the land seeded with mines.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## BlinkST (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> You don't know what circular reasoning means.
> 
> It is not my _assumption _that the Paths of Pain are corpses, it is the fact that they are explicitly stated to be corpses, *and that they retain the features of corpses.*


That's where the circular reasoning comes in: they are corpses therefore that guarantees that they have _all_ of the features of corpses? They don't, as you admit. They would be comparable to someone in a vegetative state being kept alive by a machine.


Halcyonite said:


> Where did the Paths of Pain suffer from smoke inhalation? And vision impairment is thanks to the Six Paths technique giving them Rinnegan.




Should clinically dead bodies be trying to protect themselves from _lung_ and _vision_ hazards? 



MHA massive fan said:


> Happy to concede
> Once again for consistency I guess this means orochimaru has no way to find the chameleon as much as sauske has no way



And I'm surprised that you would abandon this argument, when the fact of the matter is that they _would_ have a heat signature because of the chakra transmission rods implanted all over their bodies.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> That's where the circular reasoning comes in: they are corpses therefore that guarantees that they have _all_ of the features of corpses? They don't, as you admit. They would be comparable to someone in a vegetative state being kept alive by a machine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for this . I cba to find the panel 
But yup heat sensing works just fine


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## Ganta (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> All other features are consistent with a corpse - cold, pale complexion, *unable to feel pain*, weird contorted movements (like a puppet), etc.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## BlinkST (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Thanks for this . I cba to find the panel
> But yup heat sensing works just fine



Tendo was even huffing and puffing at the end of that fight with Naruto. 



@Ganta That madafaka breavin'

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Yagami Uchiha (Jun 7, 2022)

Yeah I don’t see Sasuke winning this sadly  
Pain low-mid diff.


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## Ganta (Jun 7, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> @Ganta That madafaka breavin'


How many times you gon' remind him who's his daddy?


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## Kisame (Jun 7, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Kabuto dismissing CS doesn’t matter as Kabuto is a superior sage to Jiriaya regardless
> 
> & Kabuto is right, CS is a temporary buff, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t as potent as an imperfect SM
> 
> ...




Jiraiya's version of SM is closer to a 'perfect' SM than it is to CS2.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BlinkST (Jun 7, 2022)

Ganta said:


> How many times you gon' remind him who's his daddy?


Chill son



Yagami Uchiha said:


> Yeah I don’t see Sasuke winning this sadly
> Pain low-mid diff.


You don't see how Hebi Sasuke can win against Chikushodo, Gakido, and Ningendo? 

Then you're off the team.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

Kisame said:


> Jiraiya's version of SM is closer to a 'perfect' SM than it is to CS2.


This statement is baseless though 
Notning in that scan puts failing at SM above mastering CS2


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## Yagami Uchiha (Jun 7, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> Chill son
> 
> 
> You don't see how Hebi Sasuke can win against Chikushodo, Gakido, and Ningendo?
> ...


As much as I like Sasuke, I don’t see him winning here.


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## Kisame (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Notning in that scan puts failing at SM above mastering CS2


Jiraiya didn't fail at SM, he almost perfected it like Naruto but fell short. He is described as 'one of the best' at it.

The point is that CS2 in and of itself is inferior to Sage Mode as a whole, the only way it would be superior is if you can't balance the chakra and turn to stone, which would in turn mean it's not _Sage Mode_ in the first place (_that_ would be considered failing at it).

Reactions: Winner 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

Kisame said:


> Jiraiya didn't fail at SM, he almost perfected it like Naruto but fell short. He is described as 'one of the best' at it.


Actually he didn’t hence his features which actually get worse as the fight continues against pain . The more Ne taxing his attacks the more he looks like a frog . Sure he is one of the best at it compared to others who simply turned into stone 


Kisame said:


> The point is that CS2 in and of itself is inferior to Sage Mode as a whole, the only way it would be superior is if you can't balance the chakra and turn to stone, which would in turn mean it's not _Sage Mode_ in the first place (_that_ would be considered failing at it).


Sure CS2 is certainly inferior to SM. However someone perfectly skilled with a single shot can still be above someone with a mechanical bow and arrow . Zetsu did make such a comment .


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## BlinkST (Jun 7, 2022)

Kisame said:


> Jiraiya didn't fail at SM, he almost perfected it like Naruto but fell short. He is described as 'one of the best' at it.
> 
> The point is that CS2 in and of itself is inferior to Sage Mode as a whole, the only way it would be superior is if you can't balance the chakra and turn to stone, which would in turn mean it's not _Sage Mode_ in the first place (_that_ would be considered failing at it).




*Spoiler*: __ 










The thing to note here though is that Sage Mode is called _Sage transformation_ by Jugo. We can technically call what Jiraiya did Sage mode, but it's inferior because it did not give him the ability to sense chakra (among other things).

Orochimaru was not a perfect Sage either, but he could still produce Sage chakra, which is the basis for the Curse Mark.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Mcginnis (Jun 7, 2022)

Ganta said:


> How many times you gon' remind him who's his daddy?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> That's where the circular reasoning comes in: they are corpses therefore that guarantees that they have _all_ of the features of corpses? They don't, as you admit. They would be comparable to someone in a vegetative state being kept alive by a machine.


I never said that they would absolutely have every single feature of a corpse, you were denying that they _were_ corpses just because they didn’t demonstrate _every_ feature of a corpse. Of course they wouldn’t if they’re being puppeteered.



BlinkST said:


> Should clinically dead bodies be trying to protect themselves from _lung_ and _vision_ hazards?


Yes they should protect their vision if they’ve had the Six Paths technique applied on them. Are you still denying that they are indeed corpses?

Raising your hands to guard against dust (presumably going into their eyes) doesn’t mean they were struggling to breathe. The intent of the dust was to block their vision.




BlinkST said:


> And I'm surprised that you would abandon this argument, when the fact of the matter is that they _would_ have a heat signature because of the chakra transmission rods implanted all over their bodies.


This is a nice find, but the original argument was that their own actual corpses were emitting heat. Not the rods.




Ganta said:


>


Him opening his mouth to expel blood is different to screaming out of pain. There’s also the fact that in anime canon there was a whole torture scene with Ibiki on the Animal Path, and he concluded that it could not feel any pain.

Don’t deny that this was the way Pain was portrayed: he has rods all over his body. If he could feel pain, he would be in agony with every single movement. Also, every time he propelled a rod out of his hands like Wolverine, he would also be experiencing pain.

You guys went hyperliteral with the science of a corpse and blood not congealing but are pretending that Pain feeling pain makes any bit of sense considering the state of his bodies

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 7, 2022)

Sasuke gets his ass beat tbh. 
He needs MS to stand a fair chance. 
Cerberus legit laughs at everything Sasuke throws and his ninjitsu is absorbed. 
Shared vision also negs his cqc Raiton attempts.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

Can I ask what the justification is for Sasuke having heat sensing? Orochimaru I can understand. But I can't remember if Sasuke had ever used heat sensing before.


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## BlinkST (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> I never said that they would absolutely have every single feature of a corpse


You said:


Halcyonite said:


> The moment the narrative confirmed they were corpses was the moment that they had the features of corpses. Which includes no heat signature.



Being a corpse does not guarantee having all features of a decaying body, including no heat signature from a heartbeat. These bodies are "dead" in the sense that their original souls are not present.


Halcyonite said:


> you were denying that they _were_ corpses just because they didn’t demonstrate _every_ feature of a corpse. Of course they wouldn’t if they’re being puppeteered.


And corpses that are controlled in that manner are _reanimated_, yes?



Halcyonite said:


> Yes they should protect their vision if they’ve had the Six Paths technique applied on them. Are you still denying that they are indeed corpses?


Why does a _corpse_ still have functioning organs that can be damaged as if it was still alive?


Halcyonite said:


> This is a nice find, but the original argument was that their own actual corpses were emitting heat. Not the rods.


That doesn't make any practical difference.



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Cerberus legit laughs at everything Sasuke throws



We're talking about Hebi Sasuke. He has snakes and venom. 



Is Cereberus immune to venom? Are any of the Pain bodies?



Halcyonite said:


> Can I ask what the justification is for Sasuke having heat sensing? Orochimaru I can understand. But I can't remember if Sasuke had ever used heat sensing before.



Not Sasuke. The snakes.


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> Being a corpse does not guarantee having all features of a decaying body, including no heat signature from a heartbeat. These bodies are "dead" in the sense that their original souls are not present.


But they _are _corpses. At the end of the day, this is the point I was trying to make. It seemed as though you were denying that very fact. You do not need to have ALL features of a corpse to BE a corpse, especially since the lack of those features is caused by an external factor (a Jutsu cast on the bodies).




BlinkST said:


> And corpses that are controlled in that manner are _reanimated_, yes?


You're trying to place this label on a puppeteered corpse when a "reanimation" is already _something _in this verse: the Reanimation Jutsu. Kakashi even highlights that it's a corpse in that very scan you cited.




BlinkST said:


> Why does a _corpse_ still have functioning organs that can be damaged as if it was still alive?


Do you mean their vision? The very vision established through the Six Paths technique? This does not mean it's no longer a corpse BlinkST.




BlinkST said:


> That doesn't make any practical difference.


It certainly doesn't, but considering we went into the intricacies of blood circulation, MHA massive fan was trying to argue they had a heat signature from their own body as opposed to the rods.




BlinkST said:


> Is Cereberus immune to venom? Are any of the Pain bodies?


Unlikely that poison would work on the corpses. Unless you've found proof that their bodies are still susceptible to toxins.




BlinkST said:


> Not Sasuke. The snakes.


Oh, so Manda. That's cool I guess. It just depends if they can pick up on a heat signature as small as the rods, and it's especially dependent on the environment they're fighting in.


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## BlinkST (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> But they _are _corpses. At the end of the day, this is the point I was trying to make. It seemed as though you were denying that very fact. You do not need to have ALL features of a corpse to BE a corpse, especially since the lack of those features is caused by an external factor (a Jutsu cast on the bodies).



My point here is that just calling them "corpses" gives someone the impression that they're clinically dead, when they're actually pretty alive (aside from not having independent agency). 



Even the "pale skin complexion" comment from earlier doesn't check-out; they look as healthy as anyone. 



Halcyonite said:


> You're trying to place this label on a puppeteered corpse when a "reanimation" is already _something _in this verse: the Reanimation Jutsu. Kakashi even highlights that it's a corpse in that very scan you cited.



What label would you prefer? Revived? Undead? 



Halcyonite said:


> Do you mean their vision? The very vision established through the Six Paths technique? This does not mean it's no longer a corpse BlinkST.



I mean the physical flesh and blood eyeballs that can still be damaged. 





Halcyonite said:


> Unlikely that poison would work on the corpses. Unless you've found proof that their bodies are still susceptible to toxins.



If they can still be mortally wounded, what makes you think that venom can't kill them?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Can I ask what the justification is for Sasuke having heat sensing? Orochimaru I can understand. But I can't remember if Sasuke had ever used heat sensing before.


Sasuke has snakes
Hence heat sensing
Same way sasuke mentioned the snakes kabuto was using could detect them via heat
But you know this so not sure the point of the question


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> I simply ask to provide the scan
> We can clearly see in the actual manga he is no where to be seen in that instance
> Whether on purpose or not
> So we can’t say he couldn’t see it or he could
> ...


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> My point here is that just calling them "corpses" gives someone the impression that they're clinically dead, when they're actually pretty alive (aside from not having independent agency).


I am calling them what they are. I'm sorry that it might have connotations that you do not like. They are closer to marionettes or puppets than being ACTUALLY alive. I don't see the issue of referring to them as just that.




BlinkST said:


> Even the "pale skin complexion" comment from earlier doesn't check-out; they look as healthy as anyone.


In and during Pain's debut, Tendo Pain had stark white skin like a corpse. There are times when he truly does look like what he is.



BlinkST said:


> What label would you prefer? Revived? Undead?


Anything that's not "alive" as you're trying to insinuate. A dead puppet.




BlinkST said:


> I mean the physical flesh and blood eyeballs that can still be damaged.


That doesn't mean they're alive. What is this logic? You can damage their eyeballs and render them functionally useless for the Six Paths techniques, but that doesn't mean they are "alive". 



BlinkST said:


> If they can still be mortally wounded, what makes you think that venom can't kill them?


Mortally wounded to the point that they cannot be moved as efficiently (perhaps due to the rods being dislodged/compromised), losing limbs, or any compromisation of their body's structure. 

That doesn't mean they can be affected by toxins or paralytics. You're reaching and this is honestly an association fallacy. Just because these corpses might share some similarities to an alive person, that does not mean they are the exact same as an alive person and therefore are susceptible to things like poison.


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Sasuke has snakes
> Hence heat sensing
> Same way sasuke mentioned the snakes kabuto was using could detect them via heat
> But you know this so not sure the point of the question


Because I thought people were arguing Sasuke himself could use heat sensing, due to him inheriting some snake-like features.


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## BlinkST (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> I am calling them what they are. I'm sorry that it might have connotations that you do not like. They are closer to marionettes or puppets than being ACTUALLY alive. I don't see the issue of referring to them as just that.


Puppets in the traditional sense can be used in a variety of _inhuman_ ways, such as being able to be disassembled. Pains are dead bodies that have been reanimated and can still be _killed_ like the average shinobi.



Halcyonite said:


> In and during Pain's debut, Tendo Pain had stark white skin like a corpse. There are times when he truly does look like what he is.





Are we talking about the manga or anime? Because the _manga_ didn't give them a pale complexion. Nagato has a pale complexion and he isn't dead.



Halcyonite said:


> Anything that's not "alive" as you're trying to insinuate. A dead puppet.



Clinically dead puppets don't talk or breathe.



Halcyonite said:


> That doesn't mean they're alive. What is this logic? You can damage their eyeballs and render them functionally useless for the Six Paths techniques, but that doesn't mean they are "alive".



Puppets don't need to be _alive_ in order to be used as puppets, do they? That's why they can employ the use of things like poisoned weapons and gas in battle.



Halcyonite said:


> Mortally wounded to the point that they cannot be moved *as efficiently (perhaps due to the rods being dislodged/compromised), losing limbs, or any compromisation of their body's structure.*




*Spoiler*: __ 









Mortally wounded to the point where they just die like regular people; Gakido had to be revived after Naruto broke his neck. Chikushodo died from two Rasengan, which cancelled the kuchiyose etc.



Halcyonite said:


> That doesn't mean they can be affected by toxins or paralytics.



It does if they still have _living tissue_.



Halcyonite said:


> You're reaching and this is honestly an association fallacy. Just because these corpses might share some similarities to an alive person, that does not mean they are the exact same as an alive person and therefore are susceptible to things like poison.



Or for that matter, _genjutsu_, right?


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> Puppets in the traditional sense can be used in a variety of _inhuman_ ways, such as being able to be disassembled. Pains are dead bodies that have been reanimated and can still be _killed_ like the average shinobi.


They're not being killed, because there is nothing TO kill. They're merely being put out of commission.




BlinkST said:


> Clinically dead puppets don't talk or breathe.


Puppets can talk. As for breathing, it can also be used for expressions like huffing or grunting.




BlinkST said:


> Puppets don't need to be _alive_ in order to be used as puppets, do they? That's why they can employ the use of things like poisoned weapons and gas in battle.


Exactly. They're dead _and _they're puppets.




BlinkST said:


> Mortally wounded to the point where they just die like regular people; Gakido had to be revived after Naruto broke his neck. Chikushodo died from two Rasengan, which cancelled the kuchiyose etc.


I'm pretty sure a broken neck would compromise the ability to fight effectively in battle, due to halted movements. The Path wouldn't be able to turn its neck to react to attacks, dodge punches to the head, etc.

This isn't defined as "killing" btw.




BlinkST said:


> It does if they still have _living tissue_.


Prove that they have living tissue without making an association fallacy.




BlinkST said:


> Or for that matter, _genjutsu_, right?


Due to the vision established by the Six Paths technique.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 7, 2022)



Reactions: Funny 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


>


Having fun?   

Came back to NBD not for nuanced debates about match-ups, but whether or not the Pain bodies are corpses

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Having fun?
> 
> Came back to NBD not for nuanced debates about match-ups, but whether or not the Pain bodies are corpses



I mean, Jiraiya made the same mistake...yet he later realized they were corpses and IIRC, Katsuyu even likened them to marionettes.


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## Serene Grace (Jun 7, 2022)

This thread is so confusing

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I mean, Jiraiya made the same mistake...yet he later realized they were corpses and IIRC, Katsuyu even likened them to marionettes


She did, .

Reactions: Winner 1


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## LostSelf (Jun 7, 2022)

Callen said:


> _Meisaigakure_ no Jutsu and Mujin Meisai are techniques using selective bending of light to make them *completely* invisible to the naked eye. While the chimera's ability doesn't warp light around the creature's body, it rendered it also invisible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That one was seen and the other could potentially have not been seen. One was used by a fodder Jonin, the other is a summon from the Rinnegan.

Again, my point here is a doubt, not a statement. I've yet to see a good excuse for Itachi to have seen the Chameleon about to ambush Naruto and did nothing but hide. Because the entire panel makes it look like he didn't see it either, they were ambushed.


Callen said:


> That's not what Ganta tried to relay. He's saying Itachi would have assumed that the Chimera is visually perceptible to Naruto, much like Sasuke assumed that Limbo was visually perceptible to Naruto.



Eh.. Naruto clearly was asking where Nagato was. What else Itachi need to know he couldn't?

Reactions: Winner 3


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## BlinkST (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> They're not being killed, because there is nothing TO kill. They're merely being put out of commission.


They're being "put out of commission" by attacks that are just so happen to be lethal to regular humans.


Halcyonite said:


> Puppets can talk.


No they can't. 


Halcyonite said:


> As for breathing, it can also be used for expressions like huffing or grunting.




Huffing is an _expression_ of physical exhaustion. @Callen Why would a dead body with no blood circulation be breathing in the first place? 


Halcyonite said:


> I'm pretty sure a broken neck would compromise the ability to fight effectively in battle, due to halted movements. The Path wouldn't be able to turn its neck to react to attacks, dodge punches to the head, etc.


The Pain is not doing anything of its own accord — it's under Nagato's control. Having broken limbs should not stop it from participating unless tissue damage has consequences. The _Shurado_ was the one that was most "puppet-like" due to its inherently mechanical nature. 


Halcyonite said:


> Prove that they have living tissue without making an association fallacy.


You already admit that they have functional lungs. 


Halcyonite said:


> Due to the vision established by the Six Paths technique.


Due to them each having a functional chakra network.


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> They're being "put out of commission" by attacks that are just so happen to be lethal to regular humans.


Nice generalization there. Dead or alive, a broken neck will compromise movements.




BlinkST said:


> No they can't.


Yes, they can. See Sasori. No natural voice box there. The only organic thing is a purple heart in a metal box.




BlinkST said:


> Huffing is an _expression_ of physical exhaustion. @Callen Why would a dead body with no blood circulation be breathing in the first place?


With the way the anime portrayed it, whatever Nagato says is what Tendo Pain says. Nagato could've also been coughing at that moment which would make perfect sense.




BlinkST said:


> The Pain is not doing anything of its own accord — it's under Nagato's control. Having broken limbs should not stop it from participating unless tissue damage has consequences. The _Shurado_ was the one that was most "puppet-like" due to its inherently mechanical nature.


Who said they were doing things of their own accord? Nice strawman. Puppet or not, if Nagato wants the puppet to turn its neck to an attack, he can't do that if the actual neck itself is broken.

Shurado was more "puppet-like" sure, but that doesn't mean they weren't all puppets. It's outright stated to be the case by Katsuyu.



BlinkST said:


> You already admit that they have functional lungs.


I did nothing of the sort   I don't think their lungs are intaking oxygen and circulating that very blood around the Pain corpses' bodies. I already said that I think the Pains are conduits for Nagato's words and are portrayed to be. Why would coughs or breathlessness be left out?




BlinkST said:


> Due to them each having a functional chakra network.


As a result of Nagato's chakra seeping into the corpses. That _is _the entire point of the rods.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> She did, .



Did Blinky see this?  

Not that the Naruto Forums crowd is big on recognizing facts contrary to their opinions

Reactions: Like 1


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## BlinkST (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Nice generalization there. Dead or alive, a broken neck will compromise movements.


A broken neck wouldn't stop of the rest of the body from moving.


Halcyonite said:


> Yes, they can. See Sasori. No natural voice box there. The only organic thing is a purple heart in a metal box.


Sasori still had his organic bits inside his "core" and he could still be killed.


Halcyonite said:


> With the way the anime portrayed it, whatever Nagato says is what Tendo Pain says. Nagato could've also been coughing at that moment which would make perfect sense.


We're not talking about the anime.


Halcyonite said:


> Who said they were doing things of their own accord? Nice strawman. Puppet or not, if Nagato wants the puppet to turn its neck to an attack, he can't do that if the actual neck itself is broken.



Nagato could still salvage it and use it effectively via the shared vision of the _other_ remaining Pains, like how he salvaged Ningendo even though Jiraiya had blinded it with a kick.

He didn't because well, Naruto's blow was fatal.


Halcyonite said:


> Shurado was more "puppet-like" sure, but that doesn't mean they weren't all puppets. It's outright stated to be the case by Katsuyu.


Shurado was more "puppet-like" in that it had more _inhuman_, _mechanical_ characteristics. The Pain bodies are similar to conventional puppets in that they are controlled remotely through some mechanism.

And that's about it.


Halcyonite said:


> I did nothing of the sort   I don't think their lungs are intaking oxygen and circulating that very blood around the Pain corpses' bodies.


Right, even though that's what having blood and lungs are for.



Halcyonite said:


> I already said that I think the Pains are conduits for Nagato's words and are portrayed to be. Why would coughs or breathlessness be left out?



When Nagato was busy coughing up blood, none of that was actually being _expressed_ through Tendo. You might again be thinking of the anime.


Halcyonite said:


> As a result of Nagato's chakra seeping into the corpses. That _is _the entire point of the rods.


Controlling something deceased via chakra does not give it its own functional chakra network to the point where it can be affected by genjutsu.


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> A broken neck wouldn't stop of the rest of the body from moving.


It would if the chakra acts like electrical impulses for the body's neurons and muscles, like a frog leg's twitch. The spine and neck are essential for performing most motor actions.

Inb4 you say "this must mean they're alive!" 



BlinkST said:


> Sasori still had his organic bits inside his "core" and he could still be killed.


But a completely inorganic voice-box, which he used to speak. His being "killed" is due to him actually living with a beating heart.




BlinkST said:


> We're not talking about the anime.


It's not just a possibility in the anime, it was just made even clearer. It's entirely likely this was why Pain was panting in the manga. How else are you supposed to depict two forms of dialogue simultaneously on a page?

In fact, when Pain is talking about his Cycle of Hatred to Naruto, it fades from Pain speaking to Nagato speaking, meaning whatever Nagato says or vocalizes is what Pain says or vocalizes.




BlinkST said:


> Nagato could still salvage it and use it effectively via the shared vision of the _other_ remaining Pains, like how he salvaged the previous Chikushodo even though Jiraiya had blinded it with a kick.


How is this in any way addressing your notion that a Path of Pain can still move around fine with their neck broken?




BlinkST said:


> Shurado was more "puppet-like" in that it had more _inhuman_, _mechanical_ characteristics. The Pain bodies are similar to conventional puppets in that they are controlled remotely through some mechanism.
> 
> And that's about it.


Doesn't stop them from being puppets, does it? They're still called puppets in canon. Honestly, I don't even know why I'm entertaining this.




BlinkST said:


> Right, even though that's what having blood and lungs are for.


It sure is! Not in a corpse though 




BlinkST said:


> When Nagato was busy coughing up blood, none of that was actually being _expressed_ through Tendo. You might again be thinking of the anime.


Just because it faded away to Nagato coughing, that does not mean Tendo wasn't coughing too. We've already seen that whatever Nagato says and does is emulated by the Pains. Are you expecting Kishimoto to dedicate multiple panels just to show that Tendo is coughing too?



BlinkST said:


> Controlling something deceased via chakra does not give it its own functional chakra network to the point where it can be affected by genjutsu.


That's why there are rods... _everywhere_. To emulate a chakra network. You're beginning to argue asinine things now: why is it that far-fetched that the Rinnegan would be capable of doing this?

Reactions: Like 1


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## BlinkST (Jun 7, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> It would if the chakra acts like electrical impulses for the body's neurons and muscles, like a frog leg's twitch. The spine and neck are essential for performing most motor actions.
> 
> *Inb4 you say "this must mean they're alive!"*


I'm confused. Why does a dead body have a functional nervous system? Do these electrical impulses also cause the bodies to have a heartbeat?


Halcyonite said:


> But a completely inorganic voice-box, which he used to speak. His being "killed" is due to him actually living with a beating heart.


You mean modified via ninjutsu, but he was still a living organism.



Halcyonite said:


> It's not just a possibility in the anime, it was just made even clearer.


The manga is the common ground and source material here, not the anime, which has a tendency to take liberties with all kinds of things.



Halcyonite said:


> How else are you supposed to depict two forms of dialogue simultaneously on a page?



*Spoiler*: __ 












Halcyonite said:


> Doesn't stop them from being puppets, does it? They're still called puppets in canon. Honestly, I don't even know why I'm entertaining this.


It depends on what we mean by _puppet_. Clearly these aren't puppets with interchangeable limbs that can function independently.


Halcyonite said:


> Just because it faded away to Nagato coughing, that does not mean Tendo wasn't coughing too.


The only thing we saw is that Nagato's weakening led to him being unable to maintain Chibaku Tensei.


*Spoiler*: __ 









At various times when Nagato was gasping for air and hacking up blood, _Tendo_ was shown to be just fine.



Halcyonite said:


> That's why there are rods... _everywhere_. To emulate a chakra network. You're beginning to argue asinine things now: why is it that far-fetched that the Rinnegan would be capable of doing this?


Can the bodies *hear sounds* and be snared with genjutsu without having a *functional brain* to process sound waves in the first place?

Now that would be asinine.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jun 7, 2022)

I like how sannin stans will immediately cope for Oro saying he can find the chameleon with snake summons but Hebi Sasuke isnt given the same latitude despite expressly studying that exact aspect of snakes even before fighting Oro

Really telling

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 7, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> I'm confused. Why does a dead body have a functional nervous system? Do these electrical impulses also cause the bodies to have a heartbeat?


The same way all dead animals do if they're preserved well enough. See Luigi Galvani.




BlinkST said:


> You mean modified via ninjutsu, but he was still a living organism.


Keyword: *was*

A wooden voice-box is not organic nor was it living. The only living thing about Sasori is his heart.




BlinkST said:


> The manga is the common ground and source material here, not the anime, which has a tendency to take liberties with all kinds of things.


Doesn't make my interpretation any less valid. It's just a plus that the anime corroborates said interpretation 




BlinkST said:


> It depends on what we mean by _puppet_. Clearly these aren't puppets with interchangeable limbs that can function independently.


They are corpses that are being manipulated like puppets. As per Katsuyu's words.




BlinkST said:


> The only thing we saw is that Nagato's weakening led to him being unable to maintain Chibaku Tensei.


Those panels are not simultaneous. We already know that what Nagato says and does is emulated by Pain.




BlinkST said:


> Can the bodies *hear sounds* and be snared with genjutsu without having a *functional brain* to process sound waves in the first place?
> 
> Now that would be asinine.


A corpse's brain that still responds to electricity-like stimuli (in this case, chakra). 

Six Paths technique too. But hey, we've already established this.


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## BlinkST (Jun 8, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> The same way all dead animals do if they're preserved well enough. See Luigi Galvani.


If they've been preserved to retain what, exactly? I need you to be more specific.


Halcyonite said:


> Doesn't make my interpretation any less valid. It's just a plus that the anime corroborates said interpretation


It makes it completely invalid; the anime is not the source material.


Halcyonite said:


> They are corpses that are being manipulated like puppets. As per Katsuyu's words.


Sure. What, in regards to their stage of death and preservation, does the word "corpse" convey?


Halcyonite said:


> Those panels are not simultaneous. We already know that what Nagato says and does is emulated by Pain.


_Emulation_ is not the proper word for what Pain does in response to Nagato, which is a remote control master—slave setup.


Halcyonite said:


> A corpse's brain that still responds to electricity-like stimuli (in this case, chakra).


For that brain to be functional and not deceased, it would need a heartbeat, blood flow, and oxygen to say the least.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Ganta (Jun 8, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Him opening his mouth to expel blood is different to screaming out of pain



Madafaka, can't you see the onomatopoeia 'RRRRRRR' for pain?


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 8, 2022)

Why is the debate still carrying on 
The rods on panel sre said to have a heat sig
So sasuke can find the chameleon which was pain win con


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## Halcyonite (Jun 8, 2022)

Ganta said:


> Madafaka, can't you see the onomatopoeia 'RRRRRRR' for pain?


That’s literally not for Pain screaming  That’s the noise of him whizzing through the air?

When has screaming ever been characterised as “RRRRRRRR”


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## Mar55 (Jun 8, 2022)

Sasuke gets crushed.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## t0xeus (Jun 8, 2022)

Sasuke can literally end this at any point with instant no-prep Kirin given the stormy location

He can win even without that though as he isn’t as reliant on chakra-based ninjutsu as Jiraiya is

Shared Vision is also not even that much of an issue for him as unlike Jiraiya he can threaten kage-level opponents in CQC (vs Deidara, vs Itachi, vs Killer Bee) even without blindsides

Man, Jman got done dirty

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Callen (Jun 8, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> One was used by a fodder Jonin, the other is a summon from the Rinnegan.


Being "fodder-nin" doesn't make his invisibility any less of a complete one, nor inferior to the Chimera's.

In the entry: Note the mention of Taiseki  being completely invisible, not partially.

Also note the rank of the technique:  A-rank. How unlike Mu's technique:  Mujin Meisai, B-rank


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## Azula (Jun 8, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I like how sannin stans will immediately cope for Oro saying he can find the chameleon with snake summons but Hebi Sasuke isnt given the same latitude despite expressly studying that exact aspect of snakes even before fighting Oro
> 
> Really telling



Sasuke studied snakes to fight against them. That does not mean he replicate all of Oro's abilities.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## LostSelf (Jun 8, 2022)

Callen said:


> Being "fodder-nin" doesn't make his invisibility any less of a complete one, nor inferior to the Chimera's.
> 
> In the entry: Note the mention of Taiseki being completely invisible, not partially.
> 
> Also note the rank of the technique: A-rank. How unlike Mu's technique: Mujin Meisai, B-rank



Of course it does. Are we saying his invisibility is as good as Mu's, for instance?

Why Itachi didn't do a thing when he found out Naruto was not seeing the chameleon, but vanish altogether, then? Taking in consideration that Naruto couldn't see it (he made it clear), Nagato was after Naruto and was a dangerous force against one person Itachi put his hope in? You said he thought Naruto saw it, but Naruto was asking where the chameleon was (which debunks the argument of Itachi thinking he could see the summon).

So, how come Nagato ambushed them if Itachi was seeing the chameleon all the time? If I get a good explanation on this that's not showing another lesser shinobi fodder being seen, I'll gladly concede it, it changes nothing in the end because Sasuke can still find the chameleon with snakes.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ganta (Jun 8, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> That’s literally not for Pain screaming  That’s the noise of him whizzing through the air?



 You nailed it.
I shoulda checked RAWs before going with Viz.










> When has screaming ever been characterised as “RRRRRRRR”


Yeah, sloppy on my part.


FYI, the 'RRRRRR' in Viz scan is not accurate either. More often than not, "Hu-rurururu" is the onomatopoeia to ヒュルルルルル










Halcyonite said:


> *That doesn't mean they're alive. *What is this logic? You can damage their eyeballs and render them functionally useless for the Six Paths techniques, but that doesn't mean they are "alive".



Ningendou experiences pain there, following the stab


*which means*:

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 8, 2022)

Ganta said:


> You nailed it.
> I shoulda checked RAWs before going with Viz.
> 
> 
> ...


Imagine being called Pain 
Yet thinking they feel no pain at all


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 8, 2022)

@t0xeus Do we know there's a storm or rain going on, though? IIRC, Ame isn't always like that. If it is, however, I agree and Kirin GG.



Azula said:


> Sasuke studied snakes to fight against them. That does not mean he replicate all of Oro's abilities.



Bruh, heat sensing is a normal ability snakes have.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 8, 2022)

Azula said:


> Sasuke studied snakes to fight against them. That does not mean he replicate all of Oro's abilities.


Oh the cope 
Kabuto fodder snakes were the ones using the heat sensing


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## t0xeus (Jun 8, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @t0xeus Do we know there's a storm or rain going on, though? IIRC, Ame isn't always like that. If it is, however, I agree and Kirin GG.


It was stated it rains in Amegakure constantly by Obito in ch510,p13 when he points out his surprise of rain suddenly stopping amidst his battle with Konan


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 8, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> It was stated it rains in Amegakure constantly by Obito in ch510,p13 when he points out his surprise of rain suddenly stopping amidst his battle with Konan



IIRC, there was one day where it either doesn't rain or does.


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## t0xeus (Jun 8, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> IIRC, there was one day where it either doesn't rain or does.


 
It's just stated Pain uses his own raining technique on Sunday IIRC.

Doesn't mean natural rain doesn't occur on the other days. As per Obito words, it rains constantly.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 8, 2022)

Ganta said:


> You nailed it.
> I shoulda checked RAWs before going with Viz.
> 
> 
> ...


Lot of confidence for someone who thinks corpses can feel pain  I guess all the Pain bodies are in constant agony due to rods going through their bones throughout their entire body.

Ningendo also making noises could just be due to the fact that he has a giant sword going through his lungs. When you press on a dead body’s lungs, they scarily can still make noises as if they’re moaning. Doesn’t have to mean pain.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 8, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> It's just stated Pain uses his own raining technique on Sunday IIRC.
> 
> Doesn't mean natural rain doesn't occur on the other days. As per Obito words, it rains constantly.



It also stopped raining *completely* in Ame after Pain suspended his jutsu, however. There was no rain after Jiraiya was detected.

''Constantly'' is clearly hyperbole. But if it rains, Sasuke wins.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## t0xeus (Jun 8, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> It also stopped raining *completely* in Ame after Pain suspended his jutsu, however. There was no rain after Jiraiya was detected.
> 
> ''Constantly'' is clearly hyperbole. But if it rains, Sasuke wins.


Well constantly should at the absolute worst mean it rains more often than not so Sasuke wins most of the times

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## Ganta (Jun 8, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Lot of confidence for someone who thinks corpses can feel pain



Is _Edo Tensei _Itachi a moving *corpse*? YES
Did _Hakugeki no Jutsu_ cause him paralysing  *pain*? YES






Halcyonite said:


> I guess all the Pain bodies are in constant agony due to rods


 Chikusodou's summons also had body piercings. Did  the presence of piercings put the animals in pain?




> Ningendo also making noises could just be due to the fact that he has a giant sword going through his lungs. When you press on a dead body’s lungs, they scarily can still make noises as if they’re moaning. Doesn’t have to mean pain.


 bounce outta here with that _mess_ of a mental gym.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 8, 2022)

Ganta said:


> Is _Edo Tensei _Itachi a moving *corpse*? YES
> Did _Hakugeki no Jutsu_ cause him paralysing *pain*? YES


Is Edo Tensei a Jutsu that literally brings your _*SOUL BACK TO THE HOST BODY?*_
YES
Is this disanalogous and dredging up a shitty debate I'd already forgotten?
YES




Ganta said:


> Chikusodou's summons also had body piercings. Did the presence of piercings put the animals in pain?


The summonings are also likely dead considering some of them have rods going into their brains and vital organs.

Are you now trying to argue that numerous rods piercing your body don't cause pain? How ridiculous are you trying to make this? 




Ganta said:


> bounce outta here with that _mess_ of a mental gym.


Concession accepted.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 9, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> Is Cereberus immune to venom? Are any of the Pain bodies?


Cerberus can be resummoned any time.
Pain bodies aren't even alive. Venom probably doesn't affect them.
They are chakra controlled puppets.

And moreover, are they even going to be tagged by these snakes ?
The paths were fast enough to evade SM Jman. What are the speed feats for the snakes, especially with shared vision in play ?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jun 9, 2022)

Damn this shit blew up huh


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## WorldsStrongest (Jun 9, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Oh, so Manda.


Or snake hands/tails

Or literally any other snake at his disposal


Azula said:


> Sasuke studied snakes to fight against them. That does not mean he replicate all of Oro's abilities.


This is so stupid ngl

Sasuke doesnt need to theoretically have or replicate anything

He already POSSESSES snakes

The reason I brought up that he studied snakes was not to illustrate that he knew Oro had the ability

It was to show that Sasuke knows snakes can be used that way

All Sasukes gotta do is drop a snake and he gains all the same benefits Oro does when he drops one

He doesnt need to imitate or “replicate” anything beyond the abilities he has already shown to use while perfectly IC

What kind of low tier retort was this 

Dude essentially trying to argue Sasuke cant summon snakes period

Fr

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 9, 2022)




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## dergeist (Jun 9, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Preta tries to negs all his Ninjutsu (barring Kirin) and gets beheaded, Human Path gets mauled by him in CQC, and Animal just chills or throws in the Chameleon to bind Sasuke only to get snaked.
> 
> Pain gets stomped.



Right on

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Lewd 1


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## BlinkST (Jun 9, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> Cerberus can be resummoned any time.


If Chikushodo is mortally wounded, then the kuchiyose are undone. 


Leaf Hurricane said:


> Pain bodies aren't even alive.


That's a bit of a misconception.



The original _identities_ are gone; the bodies themselves are restored with the Rinnegan’s _Jigokudo_. 


Leaf Hurricane said:


> Venom probably doesn't affect them.
> They are chakra controlled puppets.



Raiton could still stun them, which would leave them open to Sasuke’s Chidori. Even if Chikushodo for example can intercept it momentarily with a kuchiyose, it will conduct if they are making contact.

It’s probable that they can even die from drowning and/ asphyxiation. They are “puppets” but they are not inorganic, inanimate objects.



Leaf Hurricane said:


> And moreover, are they even going to be tagged by these snakes ?
> The paths were fast enough to evade SM Jman.


 

There’s a variety of ways if there are multiple snakes involved.


*Spoiler*: __ 









The Paths also never physically evaded SM Jiraiya. Ningendo was able to intercept a blow (if it was kawazu kumite he would have died) and Chikushodo summoned a panda. Gakido absorbed ninjutsu.


Leaf Hurricane said:


> What are the speed feats for the snakes, especially with shared vision in play ?


Shared vision isn't much of a guarantee that they can't be hit. Lest we forget:



They _still_ have blind spots, and Sasuke just so happens to be someone highly adept at using shuriken.


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## J★J♥ (Jun 9, 2022)

Ganta said:


> No, we don't.


Yes we do Rinengan is next stage of evolution. 1,2,3t, ms, ems, Rinengan

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Captain Quincy (Jun 9, 2022)

I'd back Pain


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## J★J♥ (Jun 9, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> I'd back Pain


Back Pain is what Sasuke got from A4 slamming him on the ground

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Callen (Jun 9, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Ningendo also making noises could just be due to the fact that he has a giant sword going through his lungs. When you press on a dead body’s lungs, they scarily can still make noises as if they’re moaning. Doesn’t have to mean pain.



According to Databook, the sword targets the heart. No mention of lungs.



Can you identify the heart in this?



@Ganta I had a seat, Courtside.



Leaf Hurricane said:


> Pain bodies aren't even alive.


Genjutsu generally entails attacks on the psyche, which is what Magen: Gama Rinshō locked down. If they aren't alive, there's no psyche.



> Venom probably doesn't affect them.
> They are chakra controlled puppets.


Remind us again, what happened to Hanzo after he used seppuku? 

Hint: venom gland.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 10, 2022)

Callen said:


> According to Databook, the sword targets the heart. No mention of lungs.


It doesn't matter if the lungs weren't pierced. If there is great pressure on the body itself which causes the lungs to ever so slightly move (which there evidently is), it will cause the body to make noises.

You showed a picture of the heart VERY close to the lungs, and we see that Jiraiya is using a behemoth of a sword. You really think the lungs wouldn't have been impacted in any way? 


Y'all continue to act like Edo Tensei = Pain corpses even though it's stated and shown that the souls of the deceased are summoned back to the Edo Tensei hosts.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## That Bastard F R E I Z A (Jun 10, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> It doesn't matter if the lungs weren't pierced.





Halcyonite said:


> he has a giant sword going through his lungs.



For fuck sake, make up your mind.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4 | Dislike 2


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## Halcyonite (Jun 10, 2022)

That Bastard F R E I Z A said:


> For fuck sake, make up your mind.


I never changed my stance you troglodyte, I catered for the possibility that the sword _didn't _go through his lungs (which it very obviously did given the size of the sword)

Get your foot out of your mouth

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1 | Dislike 1


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## limbo Kakashi (Jun 10, 2022)

@Callen why does it look like Ichigo's zanpakuto shikai? Lol


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## Azula (Jun 10, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> This is so stupid ngl
> 
> Sasuke doesnt need to theoretically have or replicate anything
> 
> ...



Naruto doesn't use all possible collaborative ninjutsu with toads despite having the contract. Same with Sasuke.

Reactions: Optimistic 2 | Dislike 1


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## t0xeus (Jun 11, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> When you press on a dead body’s lungs, they scarily can still make noises as if they’re moaning.


  H-how do you know that?

Is there anything you want to talk about with me, Halc-kun? It's never too late to go back to being a good person.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Lewd 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 11, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> H-how do you know that?
> 
> Is there anything you want to talk about with me, Halc-kun? It's never too late to go back to being a good person.


It sounds morbid, but first-hand experience. Visited a relative at the morgue and literally the slightest prod at their torso made them make an awful moaning sound. Something to do with air passing through their lungs and vocal cords.

Reactions: Friendly 3


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## Halcyonite (Jun 11, 2022)

@t0xeus @Aegon Targaryen Thanks lads  it is what it is


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## Callen (Jun 11, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> It doesn't matter if the lungs weren't pierced. If there is great pressure on the body itself which causes the lungs to ever so slightly move (which there evidently is), it will cause the body to make noises.


Jiraiya perforated three post-mortems of people who are technically still *alive*. 



Halcyonite said:


> You showed a picture of the heart VERY close to the lungs, and we see that Jiraiya is using a behemoth of a sword. You really think the lungs wouldn't have been impacted in any way?



A direct strike to the heart may or may not disrupt the lungs:

*Vertical-slit*



*Cross-slit*



If the heart is penetrated in a cross-slit fashion, sure the lungs come along for the ride, given the broadness of Jiraiya's sword and because your heart sits between your lungs. However, that rationale for vertical slit is different and won't share any pitfalls with the lungs.






Halcyonite said:


> Y'all continue to act like Edo Tensei = Pain corpses even though it's stated and shown that the souls of the deceased are summoned back to the Edo Tensei hosts.


Obito's Six Paths of Pein, anyone?



Kakashi Kirin said:


> @Callen why does it look like Ichigo's zanpakuto shikai? Lol


well, the stone sword placed directly on the target's heart is not for combat. It's true purpose is for ''Genjutsu Kai'', and by design kill the target.






t0xeus said:


> H-how do you know that?
> 
> Is there anything you want to talk about with me, Halc-kun? It's never too late to go back to being a good person.



Your friend thinks that Pein has CIPA. because his "relative at the morgue made an awful moaning sound"


@Ganta @BlinkST @Platypus 
*Spoiler*: _また来週_


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## Halcyonite (Jun 11, 2022)

Callen said:


> Jiraiya perforated three post-mortems of people who are technically still *alive*.


They're not alive.




Callen said:


> If the heart is penetrated in a cross-slit fashion, sure the lungs come along for the ride, given the broadness of Jiraiya's sword and because your heart sits between your lungs. However, that rationale for vertical slit is different and won't share any pitfalls with the lungs.


You literally posted a picture of the heart and lungs. If you don't think that behemoth of a sword is damaging those lungs, you're deluded.




Callen said:


> Obito's Six Paths of Pein, anyone?


Which uses Edo Tensei for the bodies. Not corpses.




Callen said:


> Your friend thinks that Pein has CIPA. because his "relative at the morgue made an awful moaning sound"


You don't know what CIPA is if you think it applies to corpses.

It's actually quite worrying how obsessed you are

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 11, 2022)

Pain isn't alive. Those are six dead bodies used as puppets. What's next, Yahiko didn't die (even though he died LONG before Nagato even had a chance to turn him into a puppet)?

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 11, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Pain isn't alive. Those are six dead bodies used as puppets. What's next, Yahiko didn't die (even though he died LONG before Nagato even had a chance to turn him into a puppet)?


Bro fr whipped out the diagrams to _still _be wrong


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## BlinkST (Jun 11, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> H-how do you know that?


And it still wouldn’t apply here, anyway.



> Once self-digestion is under way and bacteria have started to escape from the gastrointestinal tract, putrefaction begins. This is molecular death – the break down of soft tissues even further, into gases, liquids and salts. It is already under way at the earlier stages of decomposition, but really gets going when anaerobic bacteria get in on the act.
> 
> Putrefaction is associated with a marked shift from aerobic bacterial species, which require oxygen to grow, to anaerobic ones, which do not. *These then feed on the body tissues, fermenting the sugars in them to produce gaseous by-products such as methane, hydrogen sulphide and ammonia, which accumulate within the body, inflating (or ‘bloating’) the abdomen and sometimes other body parts, too.*



What he’s referring to is the bloating that results from a body undergoing decomposition as the bacteria break it down.

Additionally: 



> This causes further discoloration of the body. As damaged blood cells continue to leak from disintegrating vessels, anaerobic convert haemoglobin molecules, which once carried oxygen around the body, into sulfhaemoglobin. *The presence of this molecule in settled blood gives skin the marbled, greenish-black appearance characteristic of a body undergoing active decomposition.*




*Spoiler*: __ 










Rikudo Pain doesn’t have any gray or discolored skin from decomposing. 

Furthermore: 



> Two species closely linked with decomposition are blowflies, flesh flies and their larvae. Cadavers give off , made up of a complex cocktail of volatile compounds, whose ingredients change as decomposition progresses. Blowflies detect the smell using specialised smell receptors, then land on the cadaver and lay its eggs in orifices and open wounds.







There’s a suspicious lack of insects buzzing around six supposedly decomposing bodies + decomposing kuchiyose. Did we forget that Nagato has these dudes hooked up to machines when they're not in use?



*Spoiler*: __ 









Madafakas’ pupils are even shown to dilate in response to things like using the Rinnegan's visual prowess and _adrenaline._ Kinda impossible if the tissue is dead.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Captain Quincy (Jun 11, 2022)

@Perrin would the pain paths medically be considered alive?


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## Halcyonite (Jun 11, 2022)

I commend the effort, never seen someone troll to such an extent


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## BlinkST (Jun 11, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> @Perrin would the pain paths medically be considered alive?


How do we define medical death? Rikudo Pain still has vital functions like regular people, but the original identities (souls) of the bodies are gone. We know that Nagato has the capability of extracting souls and keeping the bodies alive even though the original shinobi is technically dead. It's kind of a gray area.


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## Captain Quincy (Jun 11, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> How do we define medical death?


Perrin will tell us. He's an actual doctor.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 11, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Bro fr whipped out the diagrams to _still _be wrong



This is how some of the Naruto Forums types be. They think their mediocre translation skill compensates for poor reading comprehension.

Reactions: Like 2


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## BlinkST (Jun 11, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> Perrin will tell us. He's an actual doctor.


@Callen's a doctor too

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Rin (Jun 11, 2022)

Imagine arguing Nagato's puppets don't feel Pain because they're "dead" when Cerberus is shown moaning like Mia Khalifa over Amaterasu...
​


Also, Pain can't possibly have no heat, since the bodies contain chakra. And chakra has heat...



The Black Rods aren't a Katon jutsu, obviously heat is not a specifity of it. The scientist's structure of explanation explained it well enough: _it emitted heat (effect) _and _these respond to chakra waves (causality). _The reason of the heat is... chakra.

Any corpse that holds chakra is bound to generate heat, chakra's a form of energy that generates heat, which makes sense. So whether or not they generate common heat, It's for a fact that the heat sensing will work over them, since they contain chakra.

Nevertheless, they also obviously generate bodily heat, since muscle contraction itself is a heat generator, and Pain obviously contracts its muscles to move, meaning it generates it.

Anyways, I'm highly impressed with the lewdness that's taking place here, It's really incredible, this forum doesn't stop to disappoint me.


About the fight, Sasuke's clearly superior to this trio. Cerberus can't deal with Sasuke, since Manda can perfectly counter the dog, it can't section its body when there's a snake constricting it, Manda's restriction style is perfect for countering it. Also, if it eats the dog it can't divide as well, since the snake's digestive system is too tight and restricts movements as well, as seen with P1 Naruto and a snake from the Chūnin Exam.
Other contingencies are using poison or Raiton to effectively paralyze its movements. While Cerberus can't be killed, It's activity can be troubled even if he remains alive.

About Preta Path, Sasuke can hide shurikens under his Katon:



A perfect trap for a wielder of Kyūinjutsu, Preta will try to absorb the fire and will be surprised with a big, rotating shuriken slicing his body. So that's another L for Pain, a creative one, I guess. *Ps: *Shurikenjutsu can still work without this trap (by using lines instead), Sasuke should be able to outmaneuver him in Kenjutsu and snakes are also a possibility to catch him off-guard in CQC.

As for hecking Human Path, he's mostly irrelevant, Sasuke can deal with him with any shit. Chidori Stream is enough, Chidori Spear is enough, Kenjutsu itself is enough, Katon may be enough too.

Sasuke takes that one.​

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 2 | Neutral 1 | Lewd 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 11, 2022)

Cerberus when summoned: _*roars*_
Cerberus when attacked: *roars*
Cerberus when attacking: _*roars*_
Cerberus when LITERALLY anything: *roars*

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Rin (Jun 11, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Cerberus when summoned: _*roars*_
> Cerberus when attacked: *roars*
> Cerberus when attacking: _*roars*_
> Cerberus when LITERALLY anything: *roars*


That's your excuse for Cerberus being "Rowrrrr" "Grrrrrrrrr" specifically when being burned by Amaterasu?


Cerberus kept roaring for THREE WHOLE PAGES and you're going to say it wasn't from pain.


To further wreck your arguments I'll give you THE BIRD TOO:



The first time we see that bird moan, isn't that it?


Against each of the objective refutations people gave to you, you've been fantasizing miraculous excuses during the whole thread, to each comment replying to you, you even managed to invent "Human Path did 'ungh... nnh' because it hit his lungs and that happens with dead corpses, haha Kishimoto totally knew that when drawing that scene".
​
Seems totally unbiased, not gonna lie.


Though funnily anyone can find any refutation to you easily, all you need to do is roll pages. Another one for you.




Excuse incoming.


A dead corpse can make "Arghhhh!" when he hits his back, it true!

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Lewd 2


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## BlinkST (Jun 11, 2022)

Rin said:


> That's your excuse for Cerberus being "Rowrrrr" "Grrrrrrrrr" specifically when being burned by Amaterasu?
> 
> 
> Cerberus kept roaring for THREE WHOLE PAGES and you're going to say it wasn't from pain.
> ...



@Ganta @Callen


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 11, 2022)

@Halcyonite Tbf, it's possible the summons are living. The paths of Pain sure aren't though

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 11, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @Halcyonite Tbf, it's possible the summons are living. The paths of Pain sure aren't though


It’d be kinda weird if they were living considering some of them have rods going into their heads and vital areas.


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## Halcyonite (Jun 11, 2022)

Rin said:


> That's your excuse for Cerberus being "Rowrrrr" "Grrrrrrrrr" specifically when being burned by Amaterasu?
> 
> 
> Cerberus kept roaring for THREE WHOLE PAGES and you're going to say it wasn't from pain.
> ...


All of this just for Pain to be waltzing around with a gajillion rods going through his bones and limbs completely pain-free. You’re acting like there are no obvious contradictions to the idea of Pain feeling pain  

Even anime canon corroborates this DIRECTLY when the  and said . He even acknowledges that the . Regardless of your feelings about anime canon, this tells you that A) Pain being dead and B) Pain not feeling pain are perfectly coherent conclusions to reach in ADDITION to the support from the manga source. You've made it out as if reaching said conclusions is an impossible thing.

- you also talk about Kishimoto not having an idea that pressing on lungs will push air out of said lungs when this ENTIRE thread has been talking about the specifics of body temperature and decomposition, the logistics of a knife piercing a human's chest, and blood congealing. And you have the audacity to try and say _*I’m* _the one who is being overly scientific? Get fucking real Rin

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 11, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> It’d be kinda weird if they were living considering some of them have rods going into their heads and vital areas.



Idk, man. They're strange.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Neutral 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 11, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Idk, man. They're strange.


Whether or not the Animals are alive, the Pain bodies sure as shit aren't.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## BlinkST (Jun 11, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Whether or not the Animals are alive, the Pain bodies sure as shit aren't.


Why wouldn't the animals also be dead?


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## Halcyonite (Jun 11, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> Why wouldn't the animals also be dead?


Because unlike Pain, the animals aren't explicitly stated to be dead corpses. I'm guessing that's how ratty you're gonna be

But yeah I know what echo-chamber of degeneracy I am steering clear of from now on

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Rin (Jun 11, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Even anime canon corroborates this DIRECTLY when the  and said . He even acknowledges that the . Regardless of your feelings about anime canon, this tells you that


Anime canon.



Halcyonite said:


> ll of this just for Pain to be waltzing around with a gajillion rods going through his bones and limbs completely pain-free. You’re acting like there are no obvious contradictions to the idea of Pain feeling pain


Horrible argument as expected. The fact that they comport rods on their body without moaning in each separate movement doesn't mean they're immune to pain:



Son Goku has rods on his body and yet he can easily move and fight like that. He's immune to pain? No, he isn't, Naruto's citation suggests he still feels pain:



And he also feels pain when Naruto's *forcibly removing the rods:

*​
Goku feels pain and yet he's able to fight with Black Rods imbued at his body without displaying any signal of pain. Why would I assume that Pain's Paths do not feel pain just because they can fight with it?


It only significantly hurts to remove it, simple as that, or else Son Goku and the other tailed beasts wouldn't be able to fight with it, since they clearly feel pain, obviously.

Nevertheless, It's been splattered into your face *multiple scenes *in where those so immune to pain puppets are literally groaning over attacks. You can't fucking fight the manga pages, lmfao.​


Halcyonite said:


> - you also talk about Kishimoto not having an idea that pressing on lungs will push air out of said lungs when this ENTIRE thread has been talking about the specifics of body temperature and decomposition, the logistics of a knife piercing a human's chest, and blood congealing. And you have the audacity to try and say _*I’m* _the one who is being overly scientific? Get fucking real Rin


Tbh you're seemingly wrong. Such effect only happens when your lungs are *pressed*, not when a sword pierces your fucking heart. The sword pierces, it doesn't cause that much pressure to dislocate the air and cause the body to groan.

You think a sword piercing your heart fastly dislocates the air through your lungs in order to cause groans?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 11, 2022)

@Halcyonite Yeah, as much as I hate to say it, Maru's right. That Son Goku example proves chakra rods are just weird that way. The other Paths ARE still reanimated bodies though.


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## Rin (Jun 11, 2022)

​Now the animals are dead, even though they literally share the same principle as Pain's puppets and where used more than once (despite being killed)? Hell, even the Databook states the way Pain uses to create his Kuchiyoses is to kill the animals and then use Black Rods to control it.


 You can't even keep your coherency:



Halcyonite said:


> All of this just for Pain to be waltzing around with a gajillion rods going through his bones and limbs completely pain-free. You’re acting like there are no obvious contradictions to the idea of Pain feeling pain





Halcyonite said:


> Whether or not the Animals are alive, the Pain bodies sure as shit aren't.



Now you're considering the possibility that the animals are alive, in contrast to the bodies, just because I've checkmated the hell out of you. But just minutes ago you said the bodies can't be alive because they move with rods at their bodies.

So why doesn't that logic apply to the animals too... when they also have rods at their bodies?


Laughable, really. You're not even trying to hide your partiality, I always knew that you were a fan of Nagato and Pain, but for you to reach such a self-contradictory level was beyond me, you can't even organize two beliefs without creating an antinomy out of them.
​

Reactions: Winner 2 | Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 11, 2022)

Rin said:


> ​Now the animals are dead, even though they literally share the same principle as Pain's puppets and where used more than once (despite being killed)? Hell, even the Databook states the way Pain uses to create his Kuchiyoses is to kill the animals and then use Black Rods to control it.
> 
> 
> You can't even keep your coherency:
> ...



The bodies are dead though.

This isn't debatable.


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## Rin (Jun 11, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> The bodies are dead though.
> 
> This isn't debatable.


That's not the point, actually. The point is if they feel pain, we all know they are dead corpses that were reanimated. Also, they clearly do have senses and working nervous system, since they can hear to get caught in Frog Song.

I'm just using "dead" and "alive" as means of expression because Halcyonite itself is referring to the terms this way.​


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 11, 2022)

Rin said:


> That's not the point, actually. The point is if they feel pain, we all know they are dead corpses that were reanimated. Also, they clearly do have senses and working nervous system, since they can hear to get caught in Frog Song.
> 
> I'm just using "dead" and "alive" as means of expression because Halcyonite itself is referring to the terms this way.​



Do they hear Frog Song or is it Nagato that does? Not sure


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## Rin (Jun 11, 2022)

Anyways, after such a criminal display of lewdness and wickness, I hereby nominate @Halcyonite the official Lewdman of the NBD.


Might as well demote the previously elected Lewdman, @Aegon Targaryen , because he's not worth this crown after his lewdness was clinically surpassed by the new Lewdman.
​
I nominate Halcyonite as the new Lewdman and the official successor of Maru, hereby I'd like the public respect on the matter and by my soul I guarantee this change was analyzed thoroughly and, indeed, It was confirmed that we reached a new record in lewdness.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 1


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## Rin (Jun 11, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Do they hear Frog Song or is it Nagato that does? Not sure


Apparently they do, Kishimoto also caused them to have head*aches* during the frog song as well, to further support my point and what's been argumented in this thread.​

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 11, 2022)

Rin said:


> Anime canon.


Anime canon > science degeneracy canon




Rin said:


> Horrible argument as expected.


You're the judge rn so that statement means literally nothing to me  




Rin said:


> Son Goku has rods on his body and yet he can easily move and fight like that. He's immune to pain? No, he isn't, Naruto's citation suggests he still feels pain:


The fact that you're comparing a relatively small rod (one that Naruto can wrap his fingers around) on a giant to the gajillion rods on a much smaller Pain corpse says it all really, but anyways

This actually helps my point. The rod on Son Goku only started hurting when it was being moved by Naruto. How do you think the numerous rods on Pain's arms and legs are gonna feel with basic movements or h2h combat? They're in a much more "active" location in comparison to the rod on Son Goku's chest. Considering Pain has blocked attacks from SM Naruto and other opponents with said arms and legs and doesn't bat an eyelid says otherwise imo




Rin said:


> Tbh you're seemingly wrong. Such effect only happens when your lungs are *pressed*, not when a sword pierces your fucking heart. The sword pierces, it doesn't cause that much pressure to dislocate the air and cause the body to groan.


You're literally arguing something completely different to your friends. Callen gave a whole damn diagram showing that a "vertical slit" wouldn't have pierced the lungs, and you're saying something completely different. Hard to keep track of this lunacy when y'all can't even keep a united front. It's been me going back and forth with a whole herd.

And I find it hilarious how you criticised me for bringing up this point when you've just elaborated on it even further right now. Are you FOR or AGAINST the science stuff Rin?!




Rin said:


> Now you're considering the possibility that the animals are alive, in contrast to the bodies, just because I've checkmated the hell out of you


Unlike you, I can concede on things. You won't catch me conceding on the Pain bodies being corpses though  




Rin said:


> Laughable, really. You're not even trying to hide your partiality, I always knew that you were a fan of Nagato and Pain, but for you to reach such a self-contradictory level was beyond me, you can't even organize two beliefs without creating an antinomy out of them.


HOW DOES THIS BENEFIT ME LMFAOOOOOO

What difference does Pain being dead or not have on my ability to argue Pain in a MU

I already agreed to Pain being heat-sensed thanks to the rods emitting heat a LONG time ago. This is literally just me saying that Pain bodies are dead and can't feel pain


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## Halcyonite (Jun 11, 2022)

Rin said:


> Anyways, after such a criminal display of lewdness and wickness, I hereby nominate @Halcyonite the official Lewdman of the NBD.
> 
> 
> Might as well demote the previously elected Lewdman, @Aegon Targaryen , because he's not worth this crown after his lewdness was clinically surpassed by the new Lewdman.
> ​I nominate Halcyonite as the new Lewdman and the official successor of Maru, hereby I'd like the public respect on the matter and by my soul I guarantee this change was analyzed thoroughly and, indeed, It was confirmed that we reached a new record in lewdness.


Leave the cringe at the door

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Rin (Jun 11, 2022)

Right, we're walking in circles now, guess I'm done after all.
 

Absolutely anyone who reads our whole convo notices who's the one who's contradicting himself and finding excuses against each argument after all, so I'm not gonna bother, you can test for yourself later.
 

Though just to make it clear:​


Halcyonite said:


> Are you FOR or AGAINST the science stuff Rin?!


The first step in a refutation is to play with your partner's scenario. If you're wrong in your own scenario, there's no need to argue about it, so I just played along.

You're wrong in the scientific stuff itself, so it matters not if I'm into considering this level of knowledge here or not, the result remains the same. And no, there's no contradiction, I'm not the one making any active statement, I'm merely refuting YOUR affirmation.​


Halcyonite said:


> HOW DOES THIS BENEFIT ME LMFAOOOOOO
> 
> What difference does Pain being dead or not have on my ability to argue Pain in a MU
> 
> I already agreed to Pain being heat-sensed thanks to the rods emitting heat a LONG time ago. This is literally just me saying that Pain bodies are dead


Fine, then I'll call it pride.
​

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Rin (Jun 11, 2022)

Also, the claim was never that the bodies were alive. Everyone here knows that those are reanimated bodies, this was not what was being discussed. The discussion was about Pain's senses and if he can feel pain or not.

So crying in your signature solves not anything after all.
​

Reactions: Funny 3


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## BlinkST (Jun 11, 2022)

Rin said:


> Also, the claim was never that the bodies were alive. Everyone here knows that those are reanimated bodies, this was not what was being discussed. The discussion was about Pain's senses and if he can feel pain or not.
> 
> So crying in your signature solves not anything after all.
> ​


I had to go change my settings just to see this 

The original argument by the way was that the Pain bodies have living tissue and can be affected by things like Raiton and venom.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 11, 2022)

Rin said:


> Right, we're walking in circles now, guess I'm done after all.


Neat way to ignore the points presented but w/e




Rin said:


> Absolutely anyone who reads our whole convo notices who's the one who's contradicting himself and finding excuses against each argument after all, so I'm not gonna bother, you can test for yourself later.


Only natural when the collective 5 or 6 people that engaged in this conversation had different ways of arguing the same stance. "Our whole convo" when you literally only posted to me for the past couple of hours.



Rin said:


> The first step in a refutation is to play with your partner's scenario. If you're wrong in your own scenario, there's no need to argue about it, so I just played along.


You're dismissing how you ridiculed me for including science when a large chunk of this conversation (not exclusive to me) revolved around science. And no, I'm not wrong in my own scenario regarding the lungs. Piercing the lungs does not make it impossible for escaped air to travel through the windpipes.



Rin said:


> And no, there's no contradiction, I'm not the one making any active statement, I'm merely refuting YOUR affirmation.





Rin said:


> Fine, then I'll call it pride.


Call it whatever you want, that doesn't make it true  




Rin said:


> Also, the claim was never that the bodies were alive. Everyone here knows that those are reanimated bodies, this was not what was being discussed. The discussion was about Pain's senses and if he can feel pain or not.


And I've said since the beginning that those senses were only able to be stimulated thanks to the Six Paths technique. Pain only "sees" because Nagato is seeing through them (this is directly proven based on Nagato assessing things he views through the pains). Pain only "hears" because Nagato is hearing through them (directly proven by how he holds conversations with people through pain and how his dialogue literally mirrors what Pain says, see Cycle of Hatred speech).

I've made it pretty clear that I believe the Pain bodies are corpses throughout this entire thread. Their senses being stimulated does not change that. You, an outsider to the large majority of the discussion, cannot dictate what the discussion actually revolved around. I am telling you that I was arguing that the Pain bodies are corpses to people that repeatedly said they were "alive". Do you expect me to not interpret what they said as... what they said?



Rin said:


> So crying in your signature solves not anything after all.


Crying? It's the Hall of Fame for the stupidity that continues to amaze me on NBD 




BlinkST said:


> The original argument by the way was that the Pain bodies have living tissue and can be affected by things like Raiton and venom.


Nah, the original argument was me saying that the Pain bodies are corpses

Reactions: Like 1


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## BlinkST (Jun 11, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Nah, the original argument was me saying that the Pain bodies are corpses


Oh yeah you did say that. It didn't hold up to scrutiny.


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## Halcyonite (Jun 11, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> Oh yeah you did say that. It didn't hold up to scrutiny.


From an echo chamber with a lot of circle-jerking - I'm perfectly fine with that

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rin (Jun 11, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> Neat way to ignore the points presented but w/e


Maru...

Someday you'll convert to reason, surely you'll find a girl who'll make you understand that, she's the only one who can do it, the only hope to atone for your crimes...

Sleep with Cerberus moaning, never forget it.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 11, 2022)

Rin said:


> Anyways, after such a criminal display of lewdness and wickness, I hereby nominate @Halcyonite the official Lewdman of the NBD.
> 
> 
> Might as well demote the previously elected Lewdman, @Aegon Targaryen , because he's not worth this crown after his lewdness was clinically surpassed by the new Lewdman.
> ...



Unfortunately, we nominated you as the Lewdman and true successor of Maru already. Sorry

Reactions: Funny 1 | Lewd 1


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## BlinkST (Jun 11, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> From an echo chamber with a lot of circle-jerking - I'm perfectly fine with that


Anyone with an even rudimentary knowledge of the human body would conclude that your arguments just don't hold up, and you're intellectually dishonest.

RIkudo Pain has perfectly functioning brains but no blood circulation to keep them alive? Give me a break.

@Ganta @Callen @BillyCarnage @Rin _MEGA_pints on me fellas

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## Halcyonite (Jun 11, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> Anyone with an even rudimentary knowledge of the human body would conclude that your arguments just don't hold up, and you're intellectually dishonest.
> 
> RIkudo Pain has perfectly functioning brains but no blood circulation to keep them alive? Give me a break.
> 
> @Ganta @Callen @BillyCarnage @Rin _MEGA_pints on me fellas


They do hold up, you just don’t like acknowledging the contradictions because it doesn’t help your narrative 

You’re also kinda proving my point on how y’all just circle-jerk in your own echo chamber, y’know, with the incessant @‘ing

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Kisame (Jun 11, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure but Kabuto gives us a clear indication that the CS is below SM, Sasuke suspects Kabuto's been bitten by Orochimaru but Kabuto dismisses that as something trivial in comparison to SM. We know that Jiraiya's SM is inferior to a mastered one, but that doesn't change the fact that narratively, it is still considered sage mode based on the events of Pain vs Jiraiya battle, Naruto vs Pain and Fukasaku's words.

Orochimaru cannot enhance his own physical stats or jutsu with Senjutsu like CS users and SM users do. Orochimaru was more of a "giver" of sage chakra if that makes sense. It goes SM > Imperfect SM > CS2 in terms of stat amps.


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## maximon (Jun 12, 2022)

Hebi Sasuke? Like the one with the cursed duck feet? Nope. He stands no chance. A talented shinobi but definitely not giving trouble to the 3 paths that pushed a master of war-combats to his wits' end. 
Sasuke needs at least all of the MS abilities AND a really really COOL head to actually have a shot at winning. He has his shinning moments but in general, even with seemingly broken abilities, this guy has managed to be beaten to the brink of the death in honestly, most BRIEF confrontations with most high-end characters. Remember when he was ONE-SHOT with EMS? He sort of mistook his abilities for Sakura's for a deadly instant.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Perrin (Jun 12, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> @Perrin would the pain paths medically be considered alive?


Don’t think there’s a great answer for this but i would propose the following thought process.
Imagine the paths of pain like extensions of nagato, organs making up part of the total organism, but not essential to its function. Just as eyes are your organs to see the paths are like organs to carry out various functions. He has many eyes and though the paths can be destroyed and he loses the sight and other input/output functions from them it doesn’t affect his health directly.
So if you think of them in this way a similar question would be ‘is an eye alive?’ Certainly on a cellular level it is, but I don’t think you can consider the paths of Pain to be alive in the same way that you or i are, they’re more like supernumerary sensory organs.

Reactions: Like 1 | Kage 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jun 12, 2022)

Azula said:


> Naruto doesn't use all possible collaborative ninjutsu with toads


Snakes having all their basic anatomical senses isnt a “collaborative ninjutsu” galaxy brain

You may as well argue that when Naruto summons Gamabunta instead of Jiraiya doing so, the dude doesnt have his sense of sight anymore, but retains said ability only when Jiraiya uses him

Fuck off outta here with that 

This is fucking insanity 

Why are you allowed to post?

Reactions: Funny 2 | Optimistic 1


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## t0xeus (Jun 12, 2022)

Azula said:


> Naruto doesn't use all possible collaborative ninjutsu with toads despite having the contract. Same with Sasuke.


The irony

Yet you’re quick to give Bunta Water Bullets in Jiraiya fights despite him only ever using it with Naruto

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Azula (Jun 12, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> The irony
> 
> Yet you’re quick to give Bunta Water Bullets in Jiraiya fights despite him only ever using it with Naruto


The Sannin are the experts at using their summons while Naruto-Sasuke are the novices.

Sannin don't need to prove they can use any particular collaborative ninjutsu, but Naruto-Sasuke do need to prove it.

Gamabunta was fighting on his own without any help or guidance from Naruto.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Snakes having all their basic anatomical senses isnt a “collaborative ninjutsu” galaxy brain
> 
> You may as well argue that when Naruto summons Gamabunta instead of Jiraiya doing so, the dude doesnt have his sense of sight anymore, but retains said ability only when Jiraiya uses him
> 
> ...



Sasuke needs to prove he can take advantage of Snake abilities.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 12, 2022)

4 pages of this BS when kishi already said the rods emit heat signature 
Ultimately sasuke will find them 
Why so much circle jerking ?


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 12, 2022)

Azula said:


> The Sannin are the experts at using their summons while Naruto-Sasuke are the novices.
> 
> Sannin don't need to prove they can use any particular collaborative ninjutsu, but Naruto-Sasuke do need to prove it.
> 
> ...


As does oro seeing he has no heat sensing feats either


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## Azula (Jun 12, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> As does oro seeing he has no heat sensing feats either



He has feats. He sensed Team 7 while on the bridge. Also sensed Sai hiding underground.


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## Azula (Jun 12, 2022)

Orochimaru immediately saw through Sai's ink clone and knew the real Sai was hiding underground.

Sasuke was fooled by a clay clone of Deidara and couldn't figure out the real one was just beneath hiding inside the clay bird.

Guess we can close the debate on who has heat sensing and who doesn't.  @WorldsStrongest @t0xeus

Reactions: Informative 1


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## That Bastard F R E I Z A (Jun 12, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> They do hold up, you just don’t like acknowledging the contradictions because it doesn’t help your narrative


Lol. no. They don't up hold any. A kick to the chest will _pain_ Pein Rikudo, and he would rather avoid taijutsu with sage mode users.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 12, 2022)

Azula said:


> He has feats. He sensed Team 7 while on the bridge. Also sensed Sai hiding underground.


Wasnt heat sensing though


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## BlinkST (Jun 12, 2022)

Azula said:


> Sasuke was fooled by a clay clone of Deidara and couldn't figure out the real one was just beneath hiding inside the clay bird.
> 
> Guess we can close the debate on who has heat sensing and who doesn't.  @WorldsStrongest @t0xeus


Wouldn’t the clone, bomb, and the real Deidara all be emitting heat?


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## Azula (Jun 12, 2022)

MHA massive fan said:


> Wasnt heat sensing though



It was pretty obviously a heat sensing feat by snake summon.







A picture says a thousand words.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 12, 2022)

That Bastard F R E I Z A said:


> Lol. no. They don't up hold any. A kick to the chest will _pain_ Pein Rikudo, and he would rather avoid taijutsu with sage mode users.


They do hold up. Showing another panel of a PoP receiving damage doesn't change that

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## BlinkST (Jun 12, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> They do hold up. Showing another panel of a PoP receiving damage doesn't change that


Make sure you add him to your sig

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 12, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> Make sure you add him to your sig


Thanks for reminding me!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## That Bastard F R E I Z A (Jun 12, 2022)

Halcyonite said:


> They do hold up. Showing another panel of a PoP receiving damage doesn't change that



No they don't Lol. Blinkst ganta and callen have piled on proof after proof, but hey, being in denial about being in denial is canon

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Halcyonite (Jun 12, 2022)

That Bastard F R E I Z A said:


> No they don't Lol. Blinkst ganta and callen have piled on proof after proof, but hey, being in denial about being in denial is canon


Yes they do - the people you mentioned ignored the contradictions and brought in the science first  If it helps you sleep at night, you can call it denial. Sorry I'm not gonna entertain the circle-jerk that you're participating in.

But hey, I'm not about to rehash this conversation with someone that's only chimed in about 2 times to say 2 irrelevant things

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Rin (Jun 12, 2022)

This thread is hilarious actually.

I thought we'd have some debates on how Sasuke'd deal with shared vision, absorption, etc...

But we're here discussing if PAIN can feel PAIN.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## That Bastard F R E I Z A (Jun 12, 2022)

Rin said:


> But we're here discussing if PAIN can feel PAIN.



Imagine that.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Azula (Jun 12, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> Wouldn’t the clone, bomb, and the real Deidara all be emitting heat?



Everything has a heat signature but snakes can still navigate through their surroundings by differentiating between them and find their prey.


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## BlinkST (Jun 12, 2022)

Azula said:


> Everything has a heat signature but snakes can still navigate through their surroundings by differentiating between them and find their prey.


Differentiating between living things by their heat signature and scent is a little different from trying to find Deidara when he’s hiding inside his own jutsu. Trying to detect him by scent or heat would never work in that situation.   

Remember this is about whether or not Sasuke can use a snake to find the “invisible” chameleon, not whether or not he can use a snake to find _Chikushodo _hiding inside the chameleon.

If the chameleon gives off any heat and respirates, then it’s as good as found. 



Rin said:


> This thread is hilarious actually.
> 
> I thought we'd have some debates on how Sasuke'd deal with shared vision, absorption, etc...
> 
> But we're here discussing if PAIN can feel PAIN.


It’s not even about whether or not he can feel pain. It’s about whether or not his tissue is living and can die off from things like venom and asphyxiation.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## That Bastard F R E I Z A (Jun 12, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> Remember this is about whether or not Sasuke can use a snake to find the “invisible” chameleon, not whether or not he can use a snake to find _Chikushodo _hiding inside the chameleon.


I don't follow why sauce would rely on heat to pinpoint the chameleon. Two-coma Sharingan obito clearly saw the iwa ninja in chameleon mode.


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## BlinkST (Jun 12, 2022)

That Bastard F R E I Z A said:


> I don't follow why sauce would rely on heat to pinpoint the chameleon. Two-coma Sharingan obito clearly saw the iwa ninja in chameleon mode.


@Callen brought that up like 5 pages ago. You know these madafakas will try to discredit Sasuke every chance they get.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Trojan (Jun 12, 2022)

"feeling pain" doesn't make sense for Pain, but it did happen, and they showed so several times.
stupidly enough, the same even happened for ET in some instances.  


my understanding is, it's just for, I dunno, artistic purposes and showing off some emotion/feelings? 

it's the same how ET characters can use summoning jutsu, even tho logically, they shouldn't be able to do so without blood.  
we don't see Tobirama's blood everywhere when Obito curbstomped him, or when he blew himself up
nor do we see the 7 swordsmen's blood after the SA made it rain knives on them. 

Yet, Kishi didn't care and still gave some ET "blood", for summoning jutsu.


I think you are looking too much into those details.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## That Bastard F R E I Z A (Jun 12, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> You know these madafakas will try to discredit Sasuke every chance they get.


I'm all for sharingan and Byakugan but I hate Sasuke.


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## Trojan (Jun 12, 2022)

That Bastard F R E I Z A said:


> I don't follow why sauce would rely on heat to pinpoint the chameleon. Two-coma Sharingan obito clearly saw the iwa ninja in chameleon mode.


simply put, there is no proof that those 2 jutsu are the same thing or work in the same way.  

otherwise, the chameleon/Mu would have been able to be sensed as well. 

just because they do the same thing doesn't mean they are on the same level either.

just like shadow clones, wooden clones, water clones...etc etc

the are all clones, but they have different features/abilities...etc


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## That Bastard F R E I Z A (Jun 12, 2022)

New Folder said:


> feeling pain" doesn't make sense for Pain, but it did happen, and they showed so several times.
> stupidly enough, the same even happened for ET in some instances.



Someone is basing his whole argument off of Ibiki saying they don't feel pain, in the anime. The same anime that misled many to think Sasuke can see through shadow clones.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## BlinkST (Jun 12, 2022)

New Folder said:


> simply put, there is no proof that those 2 jutsu are the same thing or work in the same way.
> 
> otherwise, the chameleon/Mu would have been able to be sensed as well.



They _were_ able to be sensed. Gaara caught Mu with his sand and Jiraiya’s barrier/ Shima (Ma frog) could detect the chameleon.


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## Trojan (Jun 12, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> They _were_ able to be sensed. Gaara caught Mu with his sand and Jiraiya’s barrier/ Shima (Ma frog) could detect the chameleon.


that physically touching them. As for Shima, it was smell-based.

regular sensing/eyes do not "physically" touch the target.


just because they camouflaged themselves, doesn't mean that they physically do not exist...  
just like how Sakura cannot see/sense Limbo, but she still punched it...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BlinkST (Jun 12, 2022)

New Folder said:


> that physically touching them. As for Shima, it was smell-based.


So what makes you think a snake can’t detect a giant chameleon?


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## Rin (Jun 12, 2022)

The fact that the Chamaleon was not chakra sensed by Fukasaku, Shima, Jiraiya and KCM Naruto does not mean the Sharingan can't see through it.



There are shinobis that are able to occult their chakra so it can't be sensed. Absolutely nothing says about sight, only sensing. The chakra remains within the body, you may not be able to sense but Sharingan probably can see it.

Whatever the Chamaleon does in order to hide itself from sensors doesn't work against chakra sight unless proven the opposite here.​
Anyways, the Sharingan's ability is *beyond seeing chakra*, it can see through jutsus. The utmost evidence of this fact is that the Sharingan can _see through genjutsus. _You can't see through genjutsus just by viewing or sensing chakra, so obviously that perception is something other than that.​


> *Seeing through something and duplicating its principles for oneself*
> 
> The power of insight hidden inside these eyes* discerns the mechanics of all Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Genjutsu without restriction*, putting it above the crowd even by doujutsu standards. Furthermore, one can even see the patterns of their opponent’s movements and attacks, striking firmly without fear of a counter-attack, avoiding lethal blows when defending, evading from offensive moves and so forth: one’s combat ability is significantly improved in all kinds of aspects. An awe-inspiring ability for which the Clairvoyant Eyes of Heaven would be an appropriate name indeed!!
> 
> ...



Sharingan's more than chakra sight, as I've said. The Databook separately mentions _"the jutsu fundamentals" _*and *_"the amount of chakra"_, implying two different abilities: one to see chakra and the other to see fundamentals through utmost perception.

I see no reason to suppose Sharingan can't see through the fundamentals of the Chamaleon, it seems natural to suppose so.​

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Jun 12, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> So what makes you think a snake can’t detect a giant chameleon?


I didn't say anything about the snakes. My post was merely about the Sharingan being able to see them or not (it can't)...

Granted, if you were to argue about the high possiblity of the Uchiha pulling an asspulls, then I concede...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2022)

Pain barely bled when it was impaled by a gigantic sword, split/bombarded into pieces by Raikiri and Rasengan and flattened like pancake by Rasengan, living people have left swimming pools of blood behind from being stabbed once by a simple kitchen knife

There are instances where Pain didn’t visibly show pain, and instances where it did, this is a purely artistic choice

The scan of Animal being kicked by Jiraiya and displaying an expression of what can be construed as pain is simply to entertain the reader, the good guy now has the bad guys balls in a sling, the arrogant disposition is over, look at this dude getting prison raped, feel good about it reader, yahoo! …. Meanwhile Asura takes a Raikiri to the body bisecting him - with an inaudible smile? Then it’s still seeing for Nagato, and producing chakra infused attacks - as a pile of mutilated junk?

Pain is dead, as dead as a reanimated corpse would be, and citing science won’t help you in that regard, you’re better off referencing Frankenstein

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## BlinkST (Jun 12, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Pain is dead, as dead as a reanimated corpse would be, and citing science won’t help you in that regard, you’re better off referencing Frankenstein


When you say that Pain is dead, how are you defining “dead”? Does Pain have a body with functioning organs?

Reactions: Like 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> When you say that Pain is dead, how are you defining “dead”? Does Pain have a body with functioning organs?


Asura Path’s exploits prove it’s undead, the body has less than a pint of blood, talks without lunges, moves without a spine and produces ninjutsu without a chakra pathway

You can’t apply science to reanimated corpses, it’s not possible to begin with so using rules we’ve come to after competing trials in reality (science) don’t apply

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## maximon (Jun 12, 2022)

Are we still arguing about Cursed Duck Sasuke having a chance? Can someone summarize what this overrated kid can realistically do better than Sage Mode Jiraiya?

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Lewd 2


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## maximon (Jun 12, 2022)

Rin said:


> The fact that the Chamaleon was not chakra sensed by Fukasaku, Shima, Jiraiya and KCM Naruto does not mean the Sharingan can't see through it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Or the Sharingan has been rocketed all the way to the Moon? It's special but not that special.
Perhaps it's not the chakra thing but the, you know, biological make-up of it that renders it camouflage prowess. If

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## BlinkST (Jun 12, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Asura Path’s exploits prove it’s undead, the body has less than a pint of blood, talks without lunges, moves without a spine and produces ninjutsu without a chakra pathway


Shurado would be the lone “exception” because its lack of organic makeup is the function of the Rinnegan’s Shurado dojutsu.

And even then it could still be mortally wounded (Naruto’s Rasengan). 


DaVizWiz said:


> You can’t apply science to reanimated corpses, it’s not possible to begin with so using rules we’ve come to after competing trials in reality (science) don’t apply


You’re applying some kind of parameter when you say that they are dead, no? What I’m asking you is what exactly entails “dead” so that there is some common ground in this discussion. You can say dead all you want but it means nothing without defining it.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> Shurado would be the lone “exception” because its lack of organic makeup is the function of the Rinnegan’s Shurado dojutsu.
> 
> And even then it could still be mortally wounded (Naruto’s Rasengan).
> 
> You’re applying some kind of parameter when you say that they are dead, no? What I’m asking you is what exactly entails “dead” so that there is some common ground in this discussion. You can say dead all you want but it means nothing without defining it.


He bleeds, he is not entirely mechanical, and that disregards the fact that his substituted mechanical makeup was in fact destroyed when these exploits were committed, so even the machine parts are “undead” unless you think a compacted car in a junk yard still drives

Or course it could, as many reanimated corpses in fiction often are (usually entails destroying the head, for whatever reason, likely a theme picked up from original undead fiction since blood circulation is just as important yet ignored - there is no tangible science in this chosen theme it’s just art)

As in no longer alive, you can point to the fundamentals of the living in this verse to come to that conclusion, no one below the pseudo immortal god level (Judara, Otsu: alien creatures) can perform these actions in the condition Pain was in

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ganta (Jun 12, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Asura Path’s exploits prove it’s undead, the body has less than a pint of blood, talks without lunges, moves without a spine and produces ninjutsu without a chakra pathway



 Is Sasori undead? What about Konan,  able to change her body into paper. She wouldn't have any vital organs to pierce. Would that make her undead?

Dan Kato's technique called the Spirit Transformation ability allowed him to become a living spirit. You wouldn't deem him undead.

Shuradou could transform a Rinnegan user's entire body or a portion into weapons. Hence why the body that would become an "Asura path" began its re-existence as a 'living weapon'. Doesn't mean it's undead.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2022)

Ganta said:


> Is Sasori undead? What about Konan,  able to change her body into paper. She wouldn't have any vital organs to pierce. Would that make her undead?
> 
> Dan Kato's technique called the Spirit Transformation ability allowed him to become a living spirit. You wouldn't deem him undead.
> 
> Shurado could transform a Rinnegan user's entire body or a portion into weapons. Hence why the body that would become an "Asura path" began its re-existence as a 'living weapon'. Doesn't mean it's undead.


Using a bevy of superhumans using magic spells to explain a destroyed machine talking, moving and performing ninjutsu isn’t a valid argument. 

What technique did Asura use to do this? Machine Undead no Jutsu? No. He is inherently undead. Doesn’t have to mould chakra to do it. Doesn’t need to perform a spell to do it. At all times in all places he is undead. He will never be alive again.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ganta (Jun 12, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Using a bevy of superhumans using magic to explain a destroyed machine talking, moving and performing ninjutsu isn’t a valid argument
> 
> What technique did Asura use to do this? Machine Undead no Jutsu? No. He is inherently undead.



 Man, you're empty.

Databook:
Asura Path (Shurado)
* Ninjutsu*, Kekkei Genkai, Offensive, Defensive
User(s): Nagato

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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2022)

Ganta said:


> Man, you're empty.
> 
> Databook:
> Asura Path (Shurado)
> ...


First let’s just make it a priority to note that your opinion doesn’t matter.

Secondly, this is a ninjutsu path of the Rinnegan. Nagato used this himself. Asura Path is the undead corpse I’m referring to, as his actual name isn’t listed in any of the references. If you prefer I’ll just call him “smiles while being Raikiri’d”

“Smiles while being Raikiri’d” is an undead corpse who Nagato chooses to use Asura Path through. Even if he chose to use Human Path through it instead, “Smiles while being Raikri’d” would still be undead.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ganta (Jun 12, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> First let’s just make it a priority to note that your opinion doesn’t matter.


 Data entry is an opinion now? Yep, so empty.



> Secondly, this is a ninjutsu path of the Rinnegan.



@BlinkST I learned something new




> Nagato used this himself.



 And? Nagato was a living corpse when he used it. And he himself is being channeled into the sacrifice for Edo Tensei.

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## That Bastard F R E I Z A (Jun 12, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Using a bevy of superhumans using magic spells to explain a destroyed machine talking, moving and performing ninjutsu isn’t a valid argumen


How is Asura path any different to Sasori mech body with just the heart or something left? You're the one with no valid arguement

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## t0xeus (Jun 12, 2022)

Azula said:


> The Sannin are the experts at using their summons


Here, special delivery of your daily L:


So much for Sannin being summon experts  

Jman will be happy if he can even make Bunta fight for him. Water Bullets is something he uses only for people he respects, like P1 Naruto.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 4 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 12, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Here, special delivery of your daily L:
> 
> 
> So much for Sannin being summon experts
> ...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jun 12, 2022)

Azula said:


> Sasuke needs to prove he can take advantage of Snake abilities.


“Sasuke needs to prove his snakes have the basic anatomical capabilities of all stated snakes in Naruto”

Shut your mouth azula

Sincerely 

This is garbage

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 12, 2022)

Azula said:


> Sasuke needs to prove he can take advantage of Snake abilities.



He needs to prove his snakes have basic functions that snakes, by definition, have?


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## WorldsStrongest (Jun 12, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> “Sasuke needs to prove his snakes have the basic anatomical capabilities of all stated snakes in Naruto”
> 
> Shut your mouth azula
> 
> ...


@Azula I want you to prove to me Gamabunta retains his sense of smell when Naruto summons him plz

Very important to your stance and credibility (which is frighteningly low to nonexistent at this point)

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## BlinkST (Jun 12, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> He bleeds, he is not entirely mechanical, and that disregards the fact that his substituted mechanical makeup was in fact destroyed when these exploits were committed, so even the machine parts are “undead” unless you think a compacted car in a junk yard still drives


Shurado is highly _durable_, therefore it is _dead_?  


DaVizWiz said:


> Or course it could, as many reanimated corpses in fiction often are (usually entails destroying the head, for whatever reason, likely a theme picked up from original undead fiction since blood circulation is just as important yet ignored - there is no tangible science in this chosen theme it’s just art)


None of them have been killed through beheading or 14 shots to the dome. The specific three in this matchup (Chikushodo, Ningendo, Gakido) were each killed with a stab through the heart and they had to be revived with Jigokudo.

What I’m trying to figure out is, why a single stab through the heart would kill them if their biological function — _or lack thereof_ — is completely irrelevant to begin with.


DaVizWiz said:


> As in no longer alive, you can point to the fundamentals of the living in this verse to come to that conclusion


No longer _alive_ meaning what? No functional organs? 


DaVizWiz said:


> no one below the pseudo immortal god level (Judara, Otsu: alien creatures) can perform these actions in the condition Pain was in


The homie Danzo survived _two_ chest wounds and an amputation.

He must be _super duper_ immortal god level.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> Shurado is highly _durable_, therefore it is _dead_?
> 
> None of them have been killed through beheading or 14 shots to the dome. The specific three in this matchup (Chikushodo, Ningendo, Gakido) were each killed with a stab through the heart and they had to be revived with Jigokudo.
> 
> ...


It is not highly durable, it took far more damage than most ninja do by Raikiri and Rasengan

Haku, a teenage boy, had one wound cavity from Raikiri, Asura Path was torn in half by it

Shoten Itachi’s cloak wasn’t even ripped by KN0 OR as he sustained only internal wounds, Asura Path was blown open like a dynamite strapped piñata by Rasengan obliterated from animation instantly

Because the author chose to make it so, you’re still clinging to science when the author has given you numerous examples of why it’s not remotely applicable to Pein Rikudo

You want an answer but provide no explanation to the impossible exploits Pain showcased, choosing to instead introduce a bevy of explainable inconsistencies in what is plainly considered the limitations of the living

Danzo had Hashirama cell infusion (alien cells as far as the living are concerned, cells powerful enough to restore limbs, push the lifespan of a mortally wounded man decades beyond it’s limit, stop blinding and enhance arguably the strongest techniques in shinobi history [Edo Tensei, Izanagi, Kotoamatsukami] considerably), even with this enhancement his balance, reflexes and athleticism were dramatically reduced while mortally wounded, a limitation of the living

There are numerous examples of the living pushing beyond their biological limit but each have their most logical explanation, in the case of Pain we know they’re corpses and we know they’re capable of doing a myriad of things that the living cannot literally all at once, naturally it can be concluded that it’s a result of them being undead… unless you have a better one? You should start your post with the better explanation rather than focusing on all this other junk.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## BlinkST (Jun 12, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> It is not highly durable, it took far more damage than most ninja do by Raikiri and Rasengan





DaVizWiz said:


> Haku, a teenage boy, had one wound cavity from Raikiri, Asura Path was torn in half by it


Shurado had already been pummeled by a giant fist. That might have had something to do with it.



It wasn't "torn in half" btw. The additional damage from the Raikiri exposed some more of its inner workings. It's like comparing the effects of one of Sakura's punches that should normally kill people to the "damage" that it did to Sasori.



The difference between Shurado and Sasori though? Sasori can literally pull himself together. Shurado on the other hand is still organic enough that he can be killed and then needs to be revived by Jigokudo.


DaVizWiz said:


> Shoten Itachi’s cloak wasn’t even ripped by KN0 OR as he sustained only internal wounds, Asura Path was blown open like a dynamite strapped piñata by Rasengan obliterated from animation instantly


Shoten Itachi still died


DaVizWiz said:


> Because the author chose to make it so, you’re still clinging to science when the author has given you numerous examples of why it’s not remotely applicable to Pein Rikudo


Just provide the "numerous examples" instead of deferring. Qualify what it is that *you* mean when you say that Pain is a "corpse" or "dead".

It's interesting how so many on the other side of this debate can't answer such a simple question.



DaVizWiz said:


> Danzo had Hashirama cell infusion (alien cells as far as the living are concerned, cells powerful enough to restore limbs, push the lifespan of a mortally wounded man decades beyond it’s limit, stop blinding and enhance arguably the strongest techniques in shinobi history [Edo Tensei, Izanagi, Kotoamatsukami] considerably), even with this enhancement his balance, reflexes and athleticism were dramatically reduced while mortally wounded, a limitation of the living


So your explanation as to why a living human (Danzo) was resilient was because he had been retrofitted with Hashirama's _cells_.

Your explanation as to why a decaying puppet was resilient was because of... What exactly?


DaVizWiz said:


> in the case of Pain we know they’re corpses and we know they’re capable of doing a myriad of things that the living cannot literally all at once


When you say "myriad of things", I want to know what specifically you're referring to.

@Callen @Ganta @BillyCarnage @Rin Oh what's this?



Our boy Kishimoto knows about Rigor Mortis

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## Azula (Jun 12, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Here, special delivery of your daily L:
> 
> 
> So much for Sannin being summon experts
> ...



You are posting about something else entirely.

Jiraiya complains that Gamabunta gives him attitude, but Jiraiya is an expert at using Gamabunta's abilities to its fullest.

When Manda was summoned by Kabuto he threatened and shit on Orochimaru and Kabuto both but fought along with them.

Gamabunta fought without any complaint. If anything Manda is more dramatic than Gamabunta.

Sannin are the experts at using summons. No excuses.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 1


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## Azula (Jun 12, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> “Sasuke needs to prove his snakes have the basic anatomical capabilities of all stated snakes in Naruto”
> 
> Shut your mouth azula
> 
> ...





WorldsStrongest said:


> @Azula I want you to prove to me Gamabunta retains his sense of smell when Naruto summons him plz
> 
> Very important to your stance and credibility (which is frighteningly low to nonexistent at this point)



I am pretty sure you understand english you are purposefully avoiding the point.

The point: Sasuke needs to prove he can take adavantage of Snake abilities.

The point is not: Snakes don't have abilities when summoned by Sasuke.

Heat sensing feat by Orochimaru:



Heat sensing fail by Sasuke:



The debate ends here.

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## BlinkST (Jun 12, 2022)

Azula said:


> I am pretty sure you understand english you are purposefully avoiding the point.
> 
> The point: Sasuke needs to prove he can take adavantage of Snake abilities.
> 
> ...


What debate?

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## t0xeus (Jun 13, 2022)

Azula said:


> You are posting about something else entirely.
> 
> Jiraiya complains that Gamabunta gives him attitude, but Jiraiya is an expert at using Gamabunta's abilities to its fullest.
> 
> ...


Sounds like headcanon, m8.

If you said that Jman meant he can’t handle Bunta’s D in bed, it would be as much of credible as what you just said. 

Jiraiya cannot handle Bunta = Jiraiya cannot control Bunta


And good work bringing up Orochimaru. We’ve seen what relationship he has with his summon, in contrast with Aoda treating Sasuke as his lord and even protecting his daughter just out of respect for Sasuke.

Seems like New Gen > Old Gen rule applies to summoner-summon synergy too after all

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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 13, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> If you said that Jman meant he can’t handle Bunta’s D in bed, it would be as much of credible as what you just said.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jun 13, 2022)

Azula said:


> I am pretty sure you understand english


Evidently much better than you do


Azula said:


> you are purposefully avoiding the point.


Nope

Im just slapping the living fuck out of you and your stupid assertion that Sasukes snakes magically dont have all the basic anatomical capabilities of both snakes in Naruto AND snakes IRL


Azula said:


> The point: Sasuke needs to prove he can take adavantage of Snake abilities.





Azula said:


> The point is not: Snakes don't have abilities when summoned by Sasuke.





Azula said:


> Naruto doesn't use all possible collaborative ninjutsu with toads despite having the contract. Same with Sasuke.



LOOKY LOOKY WHAT I FOUND

A GOALPOST SHIFT 

First it was that heat sensing is a collaborative ninjutsu that Sasuke doesnt have feats for…Then you got slapped there when you were told it was literally a basic function of any and every snake…Now its “prove Sasuke can use snakes in a way that utilizes their basic senses”??? An ability he is aware of IN THE FUCKING NARRATIVE no less?

Again dude

This is literally like you arguing that you need to prove on a summoner by summoner basis that Bunta retains his fucking sense of smell 

This is fucking ridiculous 

Stop

Talking

Take the fucking L you troll


Azula said:


> Heat sensing feat by Orochimaru:


Not heat sensing

Prove otherwise 


Azula said:


> Heat sensing fail by Sasuke:


An exhausted and feinted Sasuke without active use of snake summons you mean

Yep

Guess the fact that Ma/Pa/Jiraiya and SM Naruto are feinted and blindsided by Pain therefore means they all lack any sensory capabilities as well now huh?

Shut your mouth azula

Again

Youre doing nothing but digging a grave here and hopping in


Azula said:


> The debate ends here.


There was never a debate

Youve just been advocating for stupid town ever since you opened your fucking mouth on the topic

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## Ludi (Jun 13, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Guess the fact that Ma/Pa/Jiraiya and SM Naruto are feinted and blindsided by Pain therefore means they all lack any sensory capabilities as well now huh?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Callen (Jun 13, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Asura Path’s exploits prove it’s undead,


Nope. Note the mention of Naraka Realm manipulating "*Life*". It can heal only the *living*, not the dead.

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## maximon (Jun 13, 2022)

Callen said:


> Nope. Note the mention of Naraka Realm manipulating "*Life*". It can heal only the *living*, not the dead.



In that picture it says "manipulate life and death" though. Or is there more to it?

Reactions: Kage 1


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## Callen (Jun 13, 2022)

maximon said:


> In that picture it says "manipulate life and death" though. Or is there more to it?


By death, that's when the "soul of a *living* being is pulled out to be eaten"

Reactions: Informative 1


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## maximon (Jun 13, 2022)

Callen said:


> By death, that's when the "soul of a *living* being is pulled out to be eaten"



But it has restored a very dead, overtorn structure to a complete form of life, right? So, what is the smoke here?


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## Callen (Jun 13, 2022)

maximon said:


> But it has restored a very dead,


Nope, that's not a Naraka Realm thing. It's the Outer Realm that makes use of the Hell King to restore the dead.


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## Rin (Jun 13, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> What I’m trying to figure out is, why a single stab through the heart would kill them if their biological function — _or lack thereof_ — is completely irrelevant to begin with.


That's yet another overkill to the position people are defending here, actually.


If the Pain Paths worked the way they're pretending to, they would have some kind of immortality like Hidan, the only way to defeat them would be to slice their body parts.

But a sword stabbing their hearts could kill them and we've seen how even direct impact blows (Frog Kata) could kill them. So yeah, guess their bodily functions still play a role.
​


DaVizWiz said:


> It is not highly durable, it took far more damage than most ninja do by Raikiri and Rasengan
> 
> Haku, a teenage boy, had one wound cavity from Raikiri, Asura Path was torn in half by it


I thought Asura Path had been eletrified by a Raiton Clone and smashed by an Akimichi Punch...



Also, analyze it better:



The Raikiri had even trouble PERFORATING Ashura Path's body, otherwise it would've trespassed him and pierced Deva Path, which we see didn't happen. Asura Path was even *repelled *by the Raikiri, because the Raikiri couldn't straight-up perforate it.
The above part was not even hit directly by the Raikiri, it was dismantled because of the earlier damage he took against the Akimichi Punch.

Also:



Did your boy Haku keep alive after he was perforated by Raikiri?



DaVizWiz said:


> Shoten Itachi’s cloak wasn’t even ripped by KN0 OR as he sustained only internal wounds, Asura Path was blown open like a dynamite strapped piñata by Rasengan obliterated from animation instantly


Ashura Path's mechanical composition pressuposes a different interaction to Rasengan, the sphere wouldn't break skin like it broke steel, obviously, the skin is rotated and the damage is internal, but the conclusion overall is the same.

Your example doesn't even hold up, Minato's non-Sage Rasengan *in the same interaction (pressuring over the ground) *took out Obito's arm and damaged him. That is, an Obito who was armored by Zetsu and had most of its body composed by Hashirama Cells, later on we've seen the dude's durable enough to stop a sword with his arm and to take a KCM Headbutt and a KCM Rasengan to his face.

It seems you're giving preference to the drawings than to the results. You're able to discredit Asura Path in comparison to Haku when the latter fastly died and the former survived the Raikiri even after a sequence of two other attacks.


Not that the drawings help you in this case, as I've explained even the drawings showed Asura Path is resistant enough to not be easily trespassed by Raikiri.

In the second case you're convinced by drawings (Asura Path seemed to receive more damage) and not by the results (both of them died, and the other Pains too when hit by the Rasengan), when the drawings are only to show the different composition of a machine and a human: the machine receives direct impact damage that destroys them, the humans receive internal damages that kill them.
​

Reactions: Winner 1 | Creative 1


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## That Bastard F R E I Z A (Jun 13, 2022)

Callen said:


> Nope. Note the mention of Naraka Realm manipulating "*Life*". It can heal only the *living*, not the dead.


You should have used this to debunk their flawed reasoning five pages back. Instead, we had to suffer fools.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Dislike 1


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## limbo Kakashi (Jun 13, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> No. He is inherently undead.


No bro. Naraka path heals only alive people, and shurado has been healed using it. See @Callen 's post.


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## Symmetry (Jun 16, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Jiraiya cannot handle Bunta = Jiraiya cannot control Bunta


Jiriaya said *even *he has trouble subduing Gamabunts, not that he can’t 

Also lonely factoring no KI for Jman and likely meaning Base as well 

So Base Jman without Ki struggles to (which implies he can) take down Gamabunta without killing him 

Big deal?

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jun 16, 2022)

Symmetry said:


> Jiriaya said *even *he has trouble subduing Gamabunts, not that he can’t
> 
> Also lonely factoring no KI for Jman and likely meaning Base as well
> 
> ...


Id say that’s actually a very big deal for all they naysayers who act like summons dont matter in Kage fights

*side-glances at entire masters fandom*


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## Mcginnis (Jun 19, 2022)

LostSelf said:


> Aside from that, the point is if Sharingan can see the Chameleon.



It can. Ofcourse. Why shouldn't it be able?


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## Callen (Jun 20, 2022)

^ he explained away that Itachi didn't warn Naruto. I figure his scenario works off the premise that Itachi scanned  the area to begin with.


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## Laz'rus (Jun 20, 2022)

Callen said:


> ^ he explained away that Itachi didn't warn Naruto. I figure his scenario works off the premise that Itachi scanned  the area to begin with.


Since Sharingan was active, if he could see it he would have warned Naruto. I don't think the Sharingan could.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ganta (Jun 20, 2022)

Laz'rus said:


> Since Sharingan was active, *if he could see it he would have warned Naruto.* I don't think the Sharingan could.


  Don't use that argument to prove any point. It has far too many holes to be used. 

Chakra sight for the Sharingan isn't a passive ability. A wielder must actively be searching, indicated by the eye's "Shkeen" glare.



Itachi might not see the chameleon because he was incapable from his lack of searching, not that the Sharingan is incapable of seeing it.

The Rinnegan appears to be in the same boat. Dilated pupils mean that Pein is analyzing Naruto's Kawazu Kumite and chakra. Also when he looks at the barrier, and when he notices the chakra in Tsunade's feet.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Informative 1


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## Rin (Jun 20, 2022)

This thread still going on? ​

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Ayala (Jun 20, 2022)

No knowledge for Sasuke? Shit's gonna be tough then, someone like SM Jman and Toad Sages alongside were not getting anywhere, were made to fear for their life and ran away. It's confusing to challenge these guys with no knowledge, and Jman was lucky they didn't decide to capitalise in time (as soon as they decided to get offensive, Jman ran away). 

If Sasuke had knowledge, he'd know to prepare Kirin or some different strategy, but like this, he's gonna get nowhere and likely gets killed. If he runs away like Jman it's a loss still.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## BlinkST (Jun 20, 2022)

Ayala said:


> No knowledge for Sasuke? Shit's gonna be tough then, someone like SM Jman and Toad Sages alongside were not getting anywhere, were made to fear for their life and ran away. It's confusing to challenge these guys with no knowledge, and Jman was lucky they didn't decide to capitalise in time (as soon as they decided to get offensive, Jman ran away).
> 
> If Sasuke had knowledge, he'd know to prepare Kirin or some different strategy, but like this, he's gonna get nowhere and likely gets killed. If he runs away like Jman it's a loss still.


We’re talking about the three Pains that Jiraiya killed, not the whole set.


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## Symmetry (Jun 20, 2022)

Glad to see another victory for hydra Oro

**

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ayala (Jun 20, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> We’re talking about the three Pains that Jiraiya killed, not the whole set.



Im talking them too


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## BlinkST (Jun 20, 2022)

Ayala said:


> Im talking them too


Yeah. The three Jiraiya put under genjutsu and killed.


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## Trojan (Jun 20, 2022)

this shit is still on?  
what is it with Hebi Sasuke's overrated ass?  


fodder barely managed against a fucking Deidara, and even then he needed an asspull to save him.  

Hebi Sasuke is weaker than Sai by feats. Move on people...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ayala (Jun 20, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> Yeah. The three Jiraiya put under genjutsu and killed.


Yes those 3


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## BlinkST (Jun 20, 2022)

Ayala said:


> Yes those 3


The snakes are gonna eat good.


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## Symmetry (Jun 20, 2022)

BlinkST said:


> The snakes are gonna eat good.


I agree the 8 headed hydra feast on both of them after busting out of Sasuke

Reactions: Like 1


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