# Sol and Justice vs. Negima and ToAru



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 27, 2011)

Since the mods are just going 'lol stomp' without even knowing the characters, let's turn it down a bit.

Sol and Justice team up in the name of justice.

Sol starts off fully transformed.  Both are bloodlusted.

Scenario 1. Both sides have prep.

Scenario 2. Straight up battle.

Game mechanics count for Justice and reasonable powerscaling's allowed for everyone.

Battlefield's Narutoverse, as it should be.

If they need backup, throw in the rest of the Gears.

Still too much? Add Slayer.

*HINT:* This isn't a stomp.  It's debatable.  So shut it and do just that.  ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).


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## Darth Nihilus (Oct 27, 2011)

Hopefully the gun won't be jumped this time around mein square

You know how the mods love getting the first shot in


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 27, 2011)

Well, at least this one got a single reply.


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## willyvereb (Oct 27, 2011)

Make it three


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## Darth Nihilus (Oct 27, 2011)

Anything for mein squares


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 27, 2011)

I'm honoured.

Truly.

Not to be a killjoy, but any thoughts? I can see the pair taking the first scenario due to prep.  Like Sol remaking the Outrage.


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## Tranquil Fury (Oct 27, 2011)

Awe of She starts playing.


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## Darth Nihilus (Oct 27, 2011)

Never played a single guilty gear game

But I'm going to change that as of now


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## ~Greed~ (Oct 27, 2011)

Both versus at once????

They die.


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 27, 2011)

Even if you don't like the gameplay, the music. 

As TF clearly knows.


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 27, 2011)

Ghostly Greed said:


> Both versus at once????
> 
> They die.



You know what the GGverse is capable of with prep, right?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2011)

All I know is that Justice is a country buster, Sol beat her, and Slayer is way above both of them and can punch people out of the galaxy. Not seeing how this isn't a stomp.


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## ~Greed~ (Oct 27, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> You know what the GGverse is capable of with prep, right?



I thought it was just Sol and Justice, And I know Sol struggled against Rakan once before.'

But no, I don't know what their capable of with prep. I actually didn't even see that they had prep until you mentioned it just now. Care to explain what they can do?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2011)

Um, Sol crushed Rakan in that thread.


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## Light (Oct 27, 2011)

How durable is the duo and slayer?


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## ~Greed~ (Oct 27, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Um, Sol crushed Rakan in that thread.



Really, My mistake. It was a while ago so I guess I remembered wrong.


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## OS (Oct 27, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> I'm honoured.
> 
> Truly.
> 
> Not to be a killjoy, but any thoughts? I can see the pair taking the first scenario due to prep.  Like Sol remaking the Outrage.



Powerscaling is still allowed for both sides.

To Aru Power scaling

Angelerator<<< Gabriel<<<<<<<<<<<Fiamma<or= Crowley<<<<<<Aiwass<=One who Cleanses God and Excorcises the Devil

With Prep, sure GG can win I guess.

Also Negima has a large speed advantage above all.


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## willyvereb (Oct 27, 2011)

I don't want to be a killjoy but Negimaverse has a vast speed advantage and attacks that bypass durability. Yes, Sol has the Master Ghost to resurrect but there's a chance his soul extinguishes by doing so.
They don't win in scenario 2.


As for Scenario 1...well, ToAru has Fiama in his La Persona Superior A Dio state. He's a planet-buster with automatic defenses clocking at the relativistic range and "supposedly" strong reality warping powers. Throwing him into the Boundary likely won't work, either.
Still, if Justice can pull out the same stuff as Valentine then otherwise they would have a good chance.


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## OS (Oct 27, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Um, Sol crushed Rakan in that thread.



Speed was equalized. Everyone said Jak would win with speed not equalized


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 27, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> All I know is that Justice is a country buster, Sol beat her



Disputed claim.  Some believe she did it herself, like I do, and some believe it was a joint effort between her and her forces.  Sol did curb her, though.



> and Slayer is way above both of them and can punch people out of the galaxy.



Also disputed (lacks feats of doing so; might be game mechanics), and, if the latest game's anything to go by, Sol can fight evenly with a serious Slayer in base.



> Not seeing how this isn't a stomp.



Not like both 'verses have serious fucking hax on their side, is it?



Ghostly Greed said:


> I thought it was just Sol and Justice, And I know Sol struggled against Rakan once before.'



Sol shits on Rakan in every conceivable way except for speed, which is only due to a lack of solid feats.  He might be a lightning timer in base, and his Gear form >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> base.



> But no, I don't know what their capable of with prep. I actually didn't even see that they had prep until you mentioned it just now. Care to explain what they can do?



Sol as Frederick created the Outrage.  It's a weapon made of eight pieces, three of which are used by characters in the story.  Each one bolsters the user's magical prowess and gives them some nifty abilities, like teleportation, ki and elemental manipulation, and they can make near-permanent time stops if they have enough power.  Hell, one of them was used to cockblock someone fucking around in the past.

Sol in a partially transformed state near the start of the story one-shotted a city-sized Gear with his weakest attack.  Words don't describe how much more powerful he is now, and the Outrage would amp that much more.

Said attack was basically just a pillar of fire.  Sol in base hit Raven with a fireball so powerful that people were mistaking the explosion for an earthquake.



Drayden said:


> How durable is the duo and slayer?



Sol's survived being divided by zero, supercharged attacks from a weapon he himself designed specifically to kill beings like himself, and being in a dimension where you're likely to be dissolved into data in an instant.  He also took a beating from a bloodlusted Justice (countrybuster) in base and got up and smacked her down.

Slayer has taken no damage whatsoever from anyone in the story, ever.  He took an attack someone spent a decade preparing specifically to kill him and was perfectly fine.  He laughed at it.



willyvereb said:


> I don't want to be a killjoy but Negimaverse has a vast speed advantage and attacks that bypass durability. Yes, Sol has the Master Ghost to resurrect but there's a chance his soul extinguishes by doing so.



You forget the part where the Masterghost, the physical incarnation of his soul, has a barrier that can only be effectively bypassed by Servants, due to their affiliation with the Backyard.



> As for Scenario 1...well, ToAru has Fiama in his La Persona Superior A Dio state. He's a planet-buster with automatic defenses clocking at the relativistic range and strong reality warping powers. *Throwing him into the Boundary likely won't work, either.*



Bullshit.  He'd be dissolved the instant he set foot in that place, even though they have no way of sending him there.



> Still, if Justice can pull out the same stuff as Valentine then otherwise they would have a good chance.



She did rape Japan.



Original Sin said:


> Speed was equalized. Everyone said Jak would win with speed not equalized



And they're wrong.


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## Light (Oct 27, 2011)

Hm well with prep they would probably win but in every scenario without it I'm almost positive they would lose.


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 27, 2011)

Prep also includes the Megadeath class Gears.  Like the Hydra.  That thing that Kliff fought for a straight week and needed a superpowered magic nuke to finish off.  Said nuke had a seal on it to contain the resultant radiation, which would have lasted for at least a hundred years, if I recall correctly.


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## willyvereb (Oct 27, 2011)

Fiama resisted a soulfuck spell from the Pope which was enhanced with the power of 2 billion believers. He has a pretty good resistance to soul based attacks and some dimensional powers to likely return from the boundary in one piece.

Anyways, time to chill out a little:


Tranquil Fury said:


> Awe of She starts playing.


_"Ask and you shall receive.~"_


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 27, 2011)

willyvereb said:


> Fiama resisted a soulfuck spell from the Pope which was enhanced with the power of 2 billion believers. He has a pretty good resistance to soul based attacks and some dimensional powers to likely return from the boundary in one piece.



The Backyard is a dimension the physical universe depends on to exist.  Not only that, but the wording of that two billion thing is extremely ambiguous - I discussed this with OS on MSN.



> Anyways, time to chill out a little:
> "Ask and you shall receive."


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 27, 2011)

Posting this for Strike.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bbz8ux-YpuE[/YOUTUBE]



If you guys haven't heard this shit, give it a listen.  There's a reason the series' music is renowned.


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## willyvereb (Oct 27, 2011)

Well, I only remember that a journey through the boundary posed the danger to dissolve the soul of Sol. Also Fiama has a spell to isolate himself in a different space.
But meh, I don't like to argue for him. He had some good quotes but otherwise even Accelerator is manlier than Fiama.



Dandy Elegance said:


> Quality.


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## SpaceMook (Oct 27, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8v9DnZBc-Q[/YOUTUBE]

Out of the GG character themes this one is one my favorites.


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## ~Greed~ (Oct 27, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> Wouldn't that be BFR?



Not if it's only temporary and used to protect himself. Oh wait, willy may be talking about Saint Goerges Sancuary, which is basically just a void in space and time that Fiamma can sit around in.


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## OS (Oct 27, 2011)

Ghostly Greed said:


> Not if it's only temporary and used to protect himself. Oh wait, willy may be talking about Saint Goerges Sancuary, which is basically just a void in space* in time* that Fiamma can sit around in.



in the novels I believe it says only space.


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 27, 2011)

SpaceMook said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8v9DnZBc-Q[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Out of the GG character themes this one is one my favorites.



I don't think I have a favourite, honestly.  So much of the music is quality. 



Ghostly Greed said:


> His personality is very similar to Gilgamesh's. Actually, the author is a nasu fan, so his personality could have been based on Gil's.



Well, I'd read his meeting with the Pope (lol, cockblocked), some woman he bitchslapped, and a few other things.  Not very knowledgeable on Nasuverse to compare them, though.



Original Sin said:


> Naw. It's the spell Index uses against Touma in the first fight.



Which I probably skipped out of laziness.



> He is better than Accelerator. He's a powerful arrogant bastard who's so holy that heaven comes around him.



Almost as bad as me, then.



Ghostly Greed said:


> Not if it's only temporary and used to protect himself. Oh wait, willy may be talking about Saint Goerges Sancuary, which is basically just a void in space in time that Fiamma can sit around in.



Can he attack from inside it? I mean, Sol and Justice could just, like... fly away until he comes out.  Assuming he doesn't die from their attacks - his durability's about island level, right?


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## Xelloss (Oct 27, 2011)

Is just space that form Saint gregory sanctuary and yes you can attack from inside it.


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## OS (Oct 27, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> Can he attack from inside it? I mean, Sol and Justice could just, like... fly away until he comes out.  Assuming he doesn't die from their attacks - his durability's about island level, right?



Index could so he can to. His attacks that will hit and dragons breath. Even his 40 km sword.

He can also use these abilities. 


- The Moon and the Rabbit: Has the combat function of sniping. Uses the bones of rabbits to shoot out powerful bullets. The bones of the rabbit can be substituted by human bones, and the human bones can be purchased by obsidian and are strong enough to penetrate a shelter designed to protect against nuclear weapons.

- Time related to life and death: Has the combat function of countering against any enemy that holds a weapon, having them kill themselves. It also has a very powerful defensive function, its enhanced his body to withstand the bullet from "Rabbit and Moon".


His durability idk. It's shown to block a laser only and I think those were city busters. I think it's assumed by powerscaling and the Holy Rights adjustments.


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 27, 2011)

Xelloss said:


> Is just space that form Saint gregory sanctuary and yes you can attack from inside it.



I'm assuming it doesn't work both ways?


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 27, 2011)

Original Sin said:


> Index could so he can to. His attacks that will hit and dragons breath. Even his 40 km sword.
> 
> He can also use these abilities.
> 
> - The Moon and the Rabbit: Has the combat function of sniping. Uses the bones of rabbits to shoot out powerful bullets. The bones of the rabbit can be substituted by human bones, and the human bones can be purchased by obsidian and are strong enough to penetrate a shelter designed to protect against nuclear weapons.



If that's all it did, I don't see this being a problem.



> - Time related to life and death: Has the combat function of countering against any enemy that holds a weapon, having them kill themselves. It also has a very powerful defensive function, its enhanced his body to withstand the bullet from "Rabbit and Moon".



Strongest character it worked on? And how does it work?

Not that it matters, though - at least Justice fights unarmed.



> His durability idk. It's shown to block a laser only and I think those were city busters. I think it's assumed by powerscaling and the Holy Rights adjustments.



Not exactly what I'd go by, but I did allow powerscaling.  Eh.  What's the best durability feat from someone weaker than him?


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## ~Greed~ (Oct 27, 2011)

Original Sin said:


> in the novels I believe it says only space.



My mistake, I could have sworn it was time and space. Doesn't really make much of a difference in this scenario though.



Dandy Elegance said:


> Can he attack from inside it? I mean, Sol and Justice could just, like... fly away until he comes out.  Assuming he doesn't die from their attacks - his durability's about island level, right?



The Holy Right can ignore space, so probably. He also has various other spells, like Time Related to Life and Death, which make people kill themselves, Dragons Breath, which is a magical light speed laser beam,  The Deep Red Stone of Pakus Chavura, which causes the opponent extreme pain, and miracles of Christianity, though the extent of which he can use that last one has been hotly debated. 

His Holy Right attacks are also instant and they act on their own at relativistic speeds.


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## Xelloss (Oct 27, 2011)

It just work both 1 way so far, you need to bypass the sanctuary outside that time related to life and death its a defense and attack (similar to andromeda shun chain), but it just have work on mooks (and be used on mooks, a elit mage but the mage broke his wirst to evade the attack).


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## OS (Oct 27, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> I'm assuming it doesn't work both ways?



Gonna put the quotes



> ?...Attempting to reverse-engineer the magical attack used by the intruder with the aid of the 103,000 grimoires? failure. Unable to locate a match in the database. Initiating preparations to construct an attack used specifically for removing the intruder.?
> 
> 
> Index looks like a lifeless puppet, her head swaying a bit.
> ...


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## ~Greed~ (Oct 27, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> Strongest character it worked on? And how does it work?



It dissolves his flesh and he somehow uses that disolved flesh to take control of the opponents weapons and arm holding the weapon to make them kill themselves. It can be broken out of, but in order to do so you have to break your own arm.



> Not exactly what I'd go by, but I did allow powerscaling.  Eh.  What's the best durability feat from someone weaker than him?



Well, Accel was previously judged to be multi island level. Kazakiri was fighting Misha and blocked her attacks, and even Misha's wings can blow apart mountains (by accident lol), so Multi-Island+ I guess. Though Saint Georges sanctuary can help augment his defenses.


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## OS (Oct 27, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> If that's all it did, I don't see this being a problem.



Some girls took out a small army. It can be resisted though the guy who did it. Who was above average human. Had to break his arm or something.

Also, the bones apparently move at lightspeed.


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## willyvereb (Oct 27, 2011)

@Dandy Elegance:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOYeno3F1WM[/YOUTUBE]Watch from 2:00
This is Gilgamesh.


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## OS (Oct 27, 2011)

Kakine vs Gilgamesh in a battle of arrogance

Winner goes against Dandy


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 27, 2011)

Nice to see I'm getting the debate I wanted.  Only took three tries.



Ghostly Greed said:


> The Holy Right can ignore space, so probably.



Fair enough, but Justice can attack from space.



> Dragons Breath, which is a magical light speed laser beam,



They're not dodging this.  How hard does it hit?



> The Deep Red Stone of Pakus Chavura, which causes the opponent extreme pain,



Not a problem to Sol.  Being in the Backyard wasn't a pleasant experience, to put it mildly.



> and miracles of Christianity, though the extent of which he can use that last one has been hotly debated.



So long as it's reasonable, feel free to put forth any ideas you have.



> His Holy Right attacks are also instant and they act on their own at relativistic speeds.



Is this the 'instant kill' thing I've heard about?



Xelloss said:


> It just work both 1 way so far, you need to bypass the sanctuary outside that time related to life and death its a defense and attack (similar to andromeda shun chain), but it just have work on mooks (and be used on mooks, a elit mage but the mage broke his wirst to evade the attack).



You mean that it only worked on fodder, or...?



Original Sin said:


> Gonna put the quotes



Might have not read it thoroughly, but that didn't tell me what I wanted to know.



Ghostly Greed said:


> It dissolves his flesh and he somehow uses that disolved flesh to take control of the opponents weapons and arm holding the weapon to make them kill themselves. It can be broken out of, but in order to do so you have to break your own arm.



That may be a problem.  Gears have pretty good regen, but far be it from me to say they'd be able to resist that.  With that said, I don't see Sol killing himself when he tanked a far more powerful attack from an amped Thunderseal back when he was far weaker.

Having no weapons, Justice is safe from that.




> Well, Accel was previously judged to be multi island level. Kazakiri was fighting Misha and blocked her attacks, and even Misha's wings can blow apart mountains (by accident lol), so Multi-Island+ I guess. *Though Saint Georges sanctuary can help augment his defenses.*



To what extent? Justice completely disintegrated Japan's landmass and Sol has arguably surpassed her by now.



Original Sin said:


> Some girls took out a small army. It can be resisted though the guy who did it. Who was above average human. Had to break his arm or something.



Why did he have to do that?



> Also, the bones apparently move at lightspeed.



And how hard do they hit?


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## Xelloss (Oct 27, 2011)

I would let others argue I am kinda busy at the moment.


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 27, 2011)

willyvereb said:


> @Dandy Elegance:
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOYeno3F1WM[/YOUTUBE]Watch from 2:00
> This is Gilgamesh.



Disposed of like trash.



Xelloss said:


> I would let others argue I am kinda busy at the moment.



There's absolutely no rush.  Contribute how and when you feel like it.


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## OS (Oct 27, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> Nice to see I'm getting the debate I wanted.  Only took three tries.







> Fair enough, but Justice can attack from space.


 Fiamma shot down satellites in space.



> They're not dodging this.  How hard does it hit?


 Don't think it's shown, but powerful enough to start tearing touma IB at level 1 and level 2 easily destroyed innocentius in a shot which it was at a stalemate on level 1.



> So long as it's reasonable, feel free to put forth any ideas you have.


Turn someone to salt?




> Is this the 'instant kill' thing I've heard about?


 Yes the one shot.




> You mean that it only worked on fodder, or...?


 The spell that makes the opponent kill themselves only been used on fodder.




> Might have not read it thoroughly, but that didn't tell me what I wanted to know.


 It was a description of  SGS and the dragon breath beam.



> To what extent? Justice completely disintegrated Japan's landmass and Sol has arguably surpassed her by now.


 I think being in a different space changes that. Because you are technically somewhere else.




> Why did he have to do that?


 Because he was about to stab his neck so he made his arm immovable.




> And how hard do they hit?





> Boom!
> Something shot out of Tecpatl?s hand, and the walls on this side of the shelter was smashed apart from the inside.
> 
> This blow easily pierced through a shelter that was capable of stopping a nuclear bomb, and directly hit the private forces of Shiokishi that were fighting outside.
> ...


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 27, 2011)

Original Sin said:


> Fiamma shot down satellites in space.



Won't stop her if he lacks firepower.  Meanwhile, she can nuke the country he's in.



> Don't think it's shown, but powerful enough to start tearing touma IB at level 1 and level 2 easily destroyed innocentius in a shot which it was at a stalemate on level 1.



Meaning?



> Turn someone to salt?



Sure, if he somehow doesn't get one-shotted.



> Yes the one shot.



Mechanism/explanation/strongest person it's worked on, please.



> The spell that makes the opponent kill themselves only been used on fodder.



Still falls to me to prove they can deal with it, which I already addressed.



> It was a description of  SGS and the dragon breath beam.



I didn't pick up anything about it being a one-way system.  Emphasise it if I missed it, if you don't mind.



> I think being in a different space changes that. Because you are technically somewhere else.



That somewhere else gets nuked, then.



> Because he was about to stab his neck so he made his arm immovable.



Think it could be resisted with physical strength?



> Boom!
> Something shot out of Tecpatl?s hand, and the walls on this side of the shelter was smashed apart from the inside.
> 
> This blow easily pierced through a shelter that was capable of stopping a nuclear bomb, and directly hit the private forces of Shiokishi that were fighting outside.
> ...



Not enough.


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## OS (Oct 27, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> Won't stop her if he lacks firepower.  Meanwhile, she can nuke the country he's in.


 His attacks are like Notorious B.I.Gs speed. Always one ups the opponent.




> Meaning?


 Like i said idk. Innocentious is a flame monster that keeps regenerating via runes.




> Sure, if he somehow doesn't get one-shotted.


 Like wise.





> Mechanism/explanation/strongest person it's worked on, please.


The strike that ends everything it touches: This attack destroys everything it touches without any destructive force (The striking force is as much as is needed to destroy a target, if the target is humanity it can lifewife but not destroy the planet, the max shown was continental (All of Asia and Europe). In La Persona Superiore a Dio form, Fiama can easily wipe out a planet with this attack.

It will always choose the correct output to beat the opponent. 

Strongest- If necessary it can turn the planet to nothing in a shot and recreate and christian legend.

Powerscaling-Galaxy since the archangel he reps is Michael who's above Gabriel.



> I didn't pick up anything about it being a one-way system.  Emphasise it if I missed it, if you don't mind.





> The begins singing a song- one that humans are unable to comprehend. Suddenly, the two magic seals which are being projected from her eyes begin to emit light, which results in an explosion. In the space in front of the centre of her eyebrows, it was as if a strong ball of lightning were created, with sparks flying out in all directions. However, it's not white sparks, but rather a ball of black lightning.
> Although this defies all laws of physics, it looks like space itself is being torn apart, creating a ripping sound. Following a thundering clap that sounded similar to a glass wall shattering, dark cracks appear on all the walls of the room. The cracks look like a turtle shell, and appear to act as a defense against anyone who happened to be close to Index. The inside of the cracks exhibit some sort of rippling effect, making a sound while growing outward.
> From inside the dark cracks flows out something that smells like a wild beast. At that moment, Kamijou has a sudden feeling. It isn’t a theory, a logical conclusion, a sensible reasoning, or even an educated guess; it's pure instinct, his mind crying out at him. Although he doesn't know what's hidden behind the turtle-shell pattern, he know that if he sees it for even a second, as long as he sees it, Kamijou Touma would be annihilated instantaneously, leaving behind no trace.





> That somewhere else gets nuked, then.


It's another space though. 




> Think it could be resisted with physical strength?


He was resisting but had to dislocate his wrist to stop it.



> Unabara felt an odd deadly aura and pulled the obsidian knife from his pocket without thinking. He hadn’t intended to use the Spear of Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli on his former comrade right away.
> “What were you looking at as you came here?” said Xochitl in a shocked sounding voice.
> As she did, Unabara’s right arm from the wrist to the elbow locked up. Before he could react in surprise, the obsidian knife he was holding turned towards his face against his will.
> “What!?”
> ...





> Not enough.


I guess. Multiple piercing bones at light speed should mean something.


Also, GG is going against the whole verse so there is still Gabriel, Aiwass, Accelerator, and Vento. 

Can't say much on Touma since featless. Powerscale put him above Fiamma and Aleister. and Powerscale apparently Aiwass is worlds apart in power compared to Gabriel.


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## Kurou (Oct 27, 2011)

Not seeing anything stopping Justice from Gamma Raying everything in sight.


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## Xelloss (Oct 27, 2011)

Gabriel, honestly I don't see anything they can do to stop her, hell curtana dimensional blast is also dangerous here.


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## Kurou (Oct 27, 2011)

Dimensional blasting is nothing impressive in GG.


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 28, 2011)

Original Sin said:


> His attacks are like Notorious B.I.Gs speed. Always one ups the opponent.



Not fallacious at all.



> Like i said idk. Innocentious is a flame monster that keeps regenerating via runes.



Then it's worthless without stats.



> Like wise.



...Except the GG side is more likely to one-shot him than he is them.  That's why it's awesome to know how powerful attacks are.



> The strike that ends everything it touches: This attack destroys everything it touches without any destructive force (The striking force is as much as is needed to destroy a target, if the target is humanity it can lifewife but not destroy the planet, the max shown was continental (All of Asia and Europe). *In La Persona Superiore a Dio form, Fiama can easily wipe out a planet with this attack.*



Elaborate on this.  Also, that lifewiping thing was a vision or dream, wasn't it?



> It will always choose the correct output to beat the opponent.
> 
> Strongest- If necessary it can turn the planet to nothing in a shot and recreate and christian legend.
> 
> *Powerscaling-Galaxy since the archangel he reps is Michael who's above Gabriel.*



Lol, fuck that.



> It's another space though.



Another space that gets nuked to shit unless you can prove that attacks won't enter it.



> He was resisting but had to dislocate his wrist to stop it.



Yeah, it just lost all hope of working if a human could resist it.  I don't need to tell you just how superior Gears are to humans physically.



> I guess. Multiple piercing bones at light speed should mean something.



Not really.  That only works when the author's strictly obeyed the laws of physics in his work.  Something that, from everything I've seen, isn't the case here.



> Also, GG is going against the whole verse so there is still Gabriel



Time stop, dimensional sealing, or nuked to shit unless I see some proof of planet level durability.



> Aiwass



Like hell is it mindfucking someone who survived in the Backyard.



> Accelerator



Countrybuster > multi-island durability.  Time stop > vectors.  Sealing > vectors.



> Vento.



Sol crushes her like a bug.  Justice wouldn't even think twice about snuffing her out.  I'm aware of that little loophole to her ability.



> Can't say much on Touma since featless.



Sol punches him.  He explodes.



> Powerscale put him above Fiamma and Aleister. and Powerscale apparently Aiwass is worlds apart in power compared to Gabriel.



Good thing that's extremely vague and illegible for use, then.



Xelloss said:


> Gabriel, honestly I don't see anything they can do to stop her



Time stop says hi, among other things.



> hell curtana dimensional blast is also dangerous here.



The citybuster, right?


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## OS (Oct 28, 2011)

Gonna respond to some since I am kinda busy atm 



Dandy Elegance said:


> Not fallacious at all.


 It's a smart weapon. It analyzes the proper power of the enemy and then uses it's power to hit them.



> ...Except the GG side is more likely to one-shot him than he is them.  That's why it's awesome to know how powerful attacks are.


 His power can work offensively and defensively at the same time.




> Elaborate on this.  Also, that lifewiping thing was a vision or dream, wasn't it?


 In this form he had the power to destroy the planet to dust.


> “You should be honored, you mass of flesh. You managed to carry out your purpose in life.”
> That would settle it.
> His third arm was no longer incomplete and it no longer continued to shake awkwardly.
> The destruction he could carry out was different from the destruction that could be created by the 103,000 grimoires.
> ...






> Lol, fuck that.


 It makes sense. Gabriel can move object beyond the solar system.





> Another space that gets nuked to shit unless you can prove that attacks won't enter it.





> Although this defies all laws of physics, it looks like space itself is being torn apart, creating a ripping sound. Following a thundering clap that sounded similar to a glass wall shattering, dark cracks appear on all the walls of the room. The cracks look like a turtle shell, and appear to act as a defense against anyone who happened to be close to Index.





> Not really.  That only works when the author's strictly obeyed the laws of physics in his work.  Something that, from everything I've seen, isn't the case here.


 But it has to be proven wrong. You know, considering a certain moon 




> Time stop, dimensional sealing, or nuked to shit unless I see some *proof* of planet level durability.


 Wasn't powerscaling allowed? inb4galaxypunch




> Like hell is it mindfucking someone who survived in the Backyard.


 She also has wings that cut. She also might have omnipresence considering her disciple does


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 29, 2011)

I remember hearing Holy Right can adjust its power to match the opponent but it does have a limit where it would be simply overwhelmed


----------



## ~Greed~ (Oct 29, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> I remember hearing Holy Right can adjust its power to match the opponent but it does have a limit where it would be simply overwhelmed



You mean it's usage limit (which it no longer has), Or the fact that we limit it simply so we don't go into the territory of NLF's?


----------



## Xelloss (Oct 29, 2011)

I think he means the destructive capability, which "easily" should be planet destroying.


----------



## TeenRyu (Oct 29, 2011)

Couldn't they be possibly Bfr'd? There's little that can help against them from
Negima, there is Ni no Tachi but could that even work on justice? And I assume Absolute zero means absolutely nothing to them at all. Only thing that foul help from Negima is massive speed difference+Hax. If bfr works Chao could possibly attempt a btcl bfr or something of similar workings.


----------



## willyvereb (Oct 29, 2011)

Actually, encasing them in Eva's ice may work. No, Guilty Gear characters don't have feats of resisting absolute zero. Albeit Sol can likely resurrect via his Masterghost.


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 29, 2011)

Original Sin said:


> It's a smart weapon. It analyzes the proper power of the enemy and then uses it's power to hit them.



Awesome.  Yet so very uninformative.



> His power can work offensively and defensively at the same time.



You're not getting it, are you? It doesn't matter how it works if you can't prove he'll not be one-shotted.



> In this form he had the power to destroy the planet to dust.



That isn't a feat.  If you guys are going to accept it as one, then Sol shitstomped a universal threat in base.

See how that's a bad idea?



> It makes sense. Gabriel can move object beyond the solar system.



How the fuck does that make sense? Pyron *owns his own fucking galaxy, twice the size of the Milky Way*, yet you don't see anyone saying he's a solar system buster, let alone galaxy.



> Although this defies all laws of physics, it looks like space itself is being torn apart, creating a ripping sound. Following a thundering clap that sounded similar to a glass wall shattering, dark cracks appear on all the walls of the room. The cracks look like a turtle shell, and appear to act as a defense against anyone who happened to be close to Index.



What's the strongest thing this technique's guarded against, then?



> But it has to be proven wrong. You know, considering a certain moon



No.  *You* have to prove it works that way.



> Wasn't powerscaling allowed? inb4galaxypunch



Pretty sure I put a 'reasonable' before it.  Amazing what difference a single word makes.



> She also has wings that cut. She also might have omnipresence considering her disciple does



That's like saying Kliff might have Ky's abilities because he's his mentor.



Ghostly Greed said:


> You mean it's usage limit (which it no longer has), Or the fact that we limit it simply so we don't go into the territory of NLF's?



Both would be helpful.



Xelloss said:


> I think he means the destructive capability, which "easily" should be planet destroying.



Because of the quote OS provided?



TeenRyu said:


> Couldn't they be possibly Bfr'd? There's little that can help against them from Negima, there is Ni no Tachi but could that even work on justice?



It works on her unless she's shown resistance, which she hasn't.  Sol's another story, though.

But I suppose you could argue for some resistance, given how Sol, a Gear, was able to survive in the Backyard, albeit with assistance, and Justice is the first 'complete' Gear.  I personally wouldn't do that, though.



> And I assume Absolute zero means absolutely nothing to them at all.



You assume wrongly.  Like I said earlier, I didn't make this thread as a rape/spite thread.  It's actually debatable.  *If* they can get that off, they should at least be able to off Justice.



> Only thing that foul help from Negima is massive speed difference+Hax. If bfr works Chao could possibly attempt a btcl bfr or something of similar workings.



How does that work and how long does it take? Because these two are packing some serious firepower and only Justice's heavy hitter has a start-up time.  Sol's attacks are pretty much instant.



willyvereb said:


> Actually, encasing them in Eva's ice may work. No, Guilty Gear characters don't have feats of resisting absolute zero. Albeit Sol can likely resurrect via his Masterghost.



Sure.  If she doesn't die first.


----------



## willyvereb (Oct 29, 2011)

Since the best speed feat in Guilty Gear is Justice reaching space in seconds I say Eva has a pretty decent chance to strike first. She's likely Mach 6600 given how easily she kept up with RT2 Negi. Also her ice prison spell doesn't take much time to cast anyway.

There ws a thread involving Dizzy (drama CD version) and Sol against the Negimaverse. It was back before half of the new top tiers were introduced but it was agreed that the Guilty Gear team cannot solo.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Oct 29, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> That isn't a feat.  If you guys are going to accept it as one, then Sol shitstomped a universal threat in base.
> 
> See how that's a bad idea?


It was a statement from the narrarator, there's no reason not to accept it.



> How the fuck does that make sense? Pyron *owns his own fucking galaxy, twice the size of the Milky Way*, yet you don't see anyone saying he's a solar system buster, let alone galaxy.



Gabriel actually showed the feat though. It moved around every star visible from earth to make a starless sky. Fiamma is also above Gabriel.....by like, a lot after his LPSD power up, according to the author iirc. He just doesn't have as many feats as gabriel.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 29, 2011)

Dizzy=/= Justice. Whole different ballgame willy.


----------



## willyvereb (Oct 29, 2011)

IIRC serious Dizzy is above Justice so yeah...you're completely right.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 29, 2011)

IYRC that is 


Seriously, never heard that one before


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 29, 2011)

willyvereb said:


> *Since the best speed feat* in Guilty Gear is Justice reaching space in seconds I say Eva has a pretty decent chance to strike first.



You mean best known speed feat.  Not like Sol trashed her or anything and it's not like the Sol we're using here is much stronger than he was then.



> She's likely Mach 6600 given how easily she kept up with RT2 Negi. Also her ice prison spell doesn't take much time to cast anyway.



Exactly how much time are we talking here? Because it's not like Justice can 1. teleport 2. go into space 3. attack from there and 4. either of them have the firepower to wipe out a fuckton of people in one hit.



> There ws a thread involving Dizzy (drama CD version) and Sol against the Negimaverse. It was back before half of the new top tiers were introduced but it was agreed that the Guilty Gear team cannot solo.



>implying that thread had people debating it seriously
>implying Dizzy is even remotely comparable to Justice

Evil Dizzy stalemated a Dragon Installed Sol with Fireseal.

Justice beat him.

Yeah, Dizzy's clearly superior. 



Ghostly Greed said:


> It was a statement from the narrarator, there's no reason not to accept it.



Cool.  Then Sol beat a universal threat.



> Gabriel actually showed the feat though. It moved around every star visible from earth to make a starless sky. Fiamma is also above Gabriel.....by like, a lot after his LPSD power up, according to the author iirc. He just doesn't have as many feats as gabriel.



And that's a galaxy-level feat... how, exactly?


----------



## OS (Oct 29, 2011)

His planet buster


*Spoiler*: __ 





> He held the power to save the world.
> He held the power at the core of a legend.
> He was known as the One Above God.
> If it was necessary, he could easily smash the no longer needed adaptor with an overwhelming explosion of light that could turn an entire planet to dust.
> ...


----------



## ~Greed~ (Oct 29, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> Cool.  Then Sol beat a universal threat.



Quote from when this happened? Does it match with other feats or statements. Was it a character statement or one from a narrator?




> And that's a galaxy-level feat... how, exactly?


Galaxy range, not destructive capacity.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 29, 2011)

He beat dizzy who could gain access to and control the Cube, an isolated space inside the backyard that would allow her control over it. The backyard being the so called "template" of the current universe 



At least, I believe thats what he's referring to.


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 30, 2011)

Original Sin said:


> His planet buster



Pretty sure the exact same passage was posted earlier.



Ghostly Greed said:


> Quote from when this happened? Does it match with other feats or statements. Was it a character statement or one from a narrator?



It doesn't contradict.  It came from the narrator and an essentially infallible source.

It matches other feats as much as Fiamma's does, which is to say not at all, which is kind of where I was going with it.

I should probably emote when I do that.



> Galaxy range, not destructive capacity.



Not what OS said.



~Strike Man~ said:


> He beat dizzy who could gain access to and control the Cube, an isolated space inside the backyard that would allow her control over it. The backyard being the so called "template" of the current universe
> 
> 
> 
> At least, I believe thats what he's referring to.



There is also this, technically.

But if you thought I'd put a universal up against these two 'verses...


----------



## ~Greed~ (Oct 30, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> Pretty sure the exact same passage was posted earlier.



It was stated twice, pretty sure that was the second time it was stated. He posted the first one earlier.



> It doesn't contradict.  It came from the narrator and an essentially infallible source.
> 
> It matches other feats as much as Fiamma's does, which is to say not at all, which is kind of where I was going with it.
> 
> I should probably emote when I do that.



Narrarator statements are usually excepted. The narrarator was basically explaining what Fiamma could do at that point.

Did this universal entity even try and fight back?




> Not what OS said.



......It's just range, every celestial body that was visible from earth was under Gabriel's control. This was also a severely weakened "Misha" Gabriel as well.

She can't destroy the galaxy, though causing all the stars to explode may do some serious damage.


----------



## DestinyDestroyer (Oct 30, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> But if you thought I'd put a universal up against these two 'verses...



........There is no one in GG who is Universal-level. Where did you heard that??


----------



## Kurou (Oct 30, 2011)

He was saying that if narration and statements were excepted then we'd have universal threats in GG, he wasn't saying it to be literal.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

Ghostly Greed said:


> ......It's just range, every celestial body that was visible from earth was under Gabriel's control. This was also a severely weakened "Misha" Gabriel as well.



Is there more context to this?

Because every celestial object visible from Earth would comprise a good chunk of the universe, not just a single galaxy.


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 31, 2011)

Ghostly Greed said:


> It was stated twice, pretty sure that was the second time it was stated. He posted the first one earlier.



Seemed like the same passage.



> Narrarator statements are usually excepted. The narrarator was basically explaining what Fiamma could do at that point.



Still a pretty big jump without anyone to really gauge it from, based on what I know.  But we're ignoring the fact that I haven't seen shit that convinces me he survives either of their attacks, never mind the both of them.

And -- outside of this alleged planetbuster -- lightspeed attacks don't mean jack when the author cocks physics up as much as he does, so I'll need some idea of the damage these attacks do.



> Did this universal entity even try and fight back?



Bit more complicated than that.  Not so much an entity as it is a place.  It's a dimension the physical universe exists according to - if you can gain access to it, you can control the universe and do whatever the shit you want.  Valentine was, by That Man, the narrator, Dr. Paradigm and Sol, stated to be a threat to the universe.  Being born there certainly didn't make her any less dangerous, either.



> ......It's just range, every celestial body that was visible from earth was under Gabriel's control. This was also a severely weakened "Misha" Gabriel as well.
> 
> She can't destroy the galaxy, though causing all the stars to explode may do some serious damage.



She can do that? Because they can't survive that, obviously.

'Course, they can Za Warudo her... or possibly seal her in another dimension.  Do bear in mind Justice can both survive in space and teleport.



DestinyDestroyer said:


> ........There is no one in GG who is Universal-level. Where did you heard that??



Context of that is inconceivably important.

Also, there actually is.  Well, not so much a person...


----------



## Kurou (Oct 31, 2011)

You mean the Cube, the isolated space that That Man created in order to control the backyard, am I correct? 


Honestly, The fact that he created it should make him the biggest threat to the universe, even if he can't access it without Justice's cells.


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 31, 2011)

That's right.  The thing that was explicitly stated to basically let her do what she wants if she gained access to it.

The thing Sol broke by punching it. 

But yeah, it's fucking insane that he pulled that off.  Just shows you how much of a genius the man is.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 31, 2011)

I heard Sol broke it with his penis, true story.




It's kind of boring though, how That Man is both physically and mentally superior to Sol. They should have some common ground to stand on as equals, otherwise we're just left wondering when Sol will finally punch his ass in the face.


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 31, 2011)

Yeah, he punched it with his dick.  I thought that's what I said? 

Agreed.  It is a bit dull seeing Sol just be constantly outclassed by the guy, but I tend to let that slide based on the knowledge that That Man's pretty much admitted that he intends to let Sol kill him one day.

The only thing I can think of that they're equal or at least near even is science.  Sol being, like, the best physicist in the world and all.  That's really it.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 31, 2011)

Well Sol has the hotter girl. Everyone knows I-No's just a trophy wife


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 31, 2011)

Chyeah.

Although I personally think Aria looked better with longer hair.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 31, 2011)

Nah, my preference has always been women with short hair. 




Long hair's only useful for pulling if you know what I mean


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 31, 2011)

Oh, you bastard.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 31, 2011)

Why yes, yes I am


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 31, 2011)

A magnificent one, no less.


----------



## willyvereb (Oct 31, 2011)

~Strike Man~ said:


> Nah, my preference has always been women with short hair.
> 
> 
> Long hair's only useful for pulling if you know what I mean


So the truth behind you and your preference came to light...


----------



## Kurou (Oct 31, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> A magnificent one, no less.




Aww, I'm blushing



willyvereb said:


> So the truth behind you and your preference came to light...



This is no secret, everyone knows


----------



## willyvereb (Oct 31, 2011)

Anyways, to answer one of dandy's earlier questions Eva casted that spell fast enough that the lightning-fast Averruncus units were unable to reach her in time. That and the root-like ice tendrils easily caught them. So there's no way for Sol and Justice to avoid these, neither prevent Eva from casting the spell.
So without prep chances are that the GG team is caught within an ice block close to absolute zero temperatures are high.



~Strike Man~ said:


> This is no secret, everyone knows


Well, I meant the reason behind your preferences.
I never thought you were so...practical about this.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 31, 2011)

I get straight to the point





as does she if you know what I mean


----------



## OS (Oct 31, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> Still a pretty big jump without anyone to really gauge it from, based on what I know.  But we're ignoring the fact that I haven't seen shit that convinces me he survives either of their attacks, never mind the both of them.
> 
> And -- outside of this alleged planetbuster -- *lightspeed attacks don't mean jack when the author cocks physics up as much as he does*, so I'll need some idea of the damage these attacks do.



Fiammas attacks are more instant since they ignore distance. But lightspeed should come from Toumas reaction against the attacks if I am right on how it's scaled here.


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 31, 2011)

willyvereb said:


> Anyways, to answer one of dandy's earlier questions Eva casted that spell fast enough that the lightning-fast Averruncus units were unable to reach her in time. That and the root-like ice tendrils easily caught them. So there's no way for Sol and Justice to avoid these, neither prevent Eva from casting the spell.



Yes, because there isn't an issue with clear speed feats in GG, one of these characters can't resurrect, and the other can't both teleport and attack from space.

Not to mention bloodlust.



> So without prep chances are that the GG team is caught within an ice block close to absolute zero temperatures are high.



About as high as Justice nuking the other side from outside of their range.

Also, I hope these points raised make it clear that this isn't a spite thread.



Original Sin said:


> Fiammas attacks are more instant since they ignore distance. But lightspeed should come from Toumas reaction against the attacks if I am right on how it's scaled here.



Is it instant, or lightspeed? Make up your fucking minds here and stop abusing powerscaling.

And can someone -- no, I'll ask a little more broadly this time -- *anyone* answer my other questions?

Like what stops Fiamma being one-shotted.

Or what stops Gabriel being sealed away or frozen in time.

Or how hard these lightspeed attacks hit.  I don't give a darn how fast they are if they can't put either of the two down.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 31, 2011)

Pretty sure I already said she Gamma Rays everyone to death.


----------



## OS (Oct 31, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> Is it instant, or lightspeed? Make up your fucking minds here and stop abusing powerscaling.


 I'm not abusing it. I say instant because his attacks ignore distance. Instant transmission.

And can someone -- no, I'll ask a little more broadly this time -- *anyone* answer my other questions?



> Like what stops Fiamma being one-shotted.


 he hits first?



> Or what stops Gabriel being sealed away or frozen in time.


Nothing



> Or how hard these lightspeed attacks hit.  I don't give a darn how fast they are if they can't put either of the two down.



Planet


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 31, 2011)

Original Sin said:


> I'm not abusing it. I say instant because his attacks ignore distance. Instant transmission.



Yet you said lightspeed. 



> he hits first?



Yet I've heard he himself is only hypersonic. 



> Planet



Yet no planets have been busted.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 31, 2011)

Yeah, but Fiama's hand auto reacts


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Oct 31, 2011)

Then two out of three... ain't bad. :bmay


----------



## Kurou (Oct 31, 2011)

It still sounds incredibly stupid


----------



## OS (Oct 31, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> Yet you said lightspeed.


 I hear from others but it should be instant as it's said multiple times in the books that his attacks ignore distance. 

Maybe another To aru fan who thinks that should explain.





> Yet I've heard he himself is only hypersonic.


 His attacks are not. They ignore distance.





> Yet no planets have been busted.


 Because they have been blocked.


----------



## Kurou (Oct 31, 2011)

Ignoring distance sounds like a huge NLF.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Oct 31, 2011)

~Strike Man~ said:


> Ignoring distance sounds like a huge NLF.



He's used it to hit satellites in space, and instantly travel several kilometers before, And use it so his attacks always hits. It's not like he can travel or hit anything light years away, but then again, nobody has claimed anything ridiculous like that yet.


----------



## willyvereb (Nov 1, 2011)

Actually, they aren't that much. Fiama used his Holy Right to teleport himself from Japan to Russia. But it's primary use is that "the strike which reaches everywhere" in short no matter where the enemy is the attack hits right next to them from any direction Fiama wants. Also back to a previous point La Persona Superior A Dio is stronger than Gabriel or any of the Archangels via powerscaling. Archangels can purge the surface of the Earth with a single word and has various other high end feats. Fiama being a planet-buster does make a good sense in terms of consistency thus Word of God shouldn't be ignored.
The general policy of OBD is to accept claims and author statements as long as they make sense in terms of context or consistency. Something which Fiama's planetbuster claim accomplishes.


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Nov 1, 2011)

willyvereb said:


> Actually, they aren't that much. Fiama used his Holy Right to teleport himself from Japan to Russia. But it's primary use is that "the strike which reaches everywhere" in short no matter where the enemy is the attack hits *right next to them* from any direction Fiama wants. Also back to a previous point La Persona Superior A Dio is stronger than Gabriel or any of the Archangels via powerscaling. Archangels can purge the surface of the Earth with a single word and has various other high end feats. Fiama being a planet-buster does make a good sense in terms of consistency thus Word of God shouldn't be ignored.
> The general policy of OBD is to accept claims and author statements as long as they make sense in terms of context or consistency. Something which Fiama's planetbuster claim accomplishes.



I'll reply to this thread later today, but...

Can you elaborate on that?


----------



## willyvereb (Nov 1, 2011)

Since Touma was somehow capable of avoiding it I figure the Holy Right can appear anywhere and attack the opponent from close range. Perhaps it could be also that Fiama was just fucking around.


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Nov 1, 2011)

Dot dot dot.


----------



## OS (Nov 1, 2011)

willyvereb said:


> Since Touma was somehow capable of avoiding it I figure the Holy Right can appear anywhere and attack the opponent from close range. Perhaps it could be also that Fiama was just fucking around.



Fiamma also shoots regular attacks


----------



## DestinyDestroyer (Nov 1, 2011)

It's pretty much clear they can't solo the ToAruverse. But maybe they can get past the Negimaverse, unless I am forgetting something

I'm not into GG anyway


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Nov 1, 2011)

How the fuck is it clear?

Have you even read the debate, where I've consistently shot the other side in the dick?


----------



## OS (Nov 1, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> How the fuck is it clear?
> 
> Have you even read the debate, where I've consistently shot the other side in the dick?



No you haven't. For fiamma at least.


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Nov 1, 2011)

Yes, I have.  Look at the last few posts.


----------



## OS (Nov 1, 2011)

Fiammas Holy Right can

-Ignore distance in it's attacks even shot satellites in space in an instant
-1 up it's enemies though to keep from NLF he's planet buster
-can bring back any christian legend within reason
-auto defense
-has his own gate of babylon
How does Sol and justice go against that?

Also Negima has the speed advantage here and To Aru still has its abilities


----------



## Dandy Elegance (Nov 1, 2011)

Original Sin said:


> Fiammas Holy Right can
> 
> -Ignore distance in it's attacks even shot satellites in space in an instant



Yet Willy says otherwise.



> -1 up it's enemies though to keep from NLF he's planet buster



And if we go by that, Sol beat a universal threat.



> -can bring back any christian legend within reason



Don't see how this factors in.



> -auto defense



Which you have yet to prove Sol and Justice's attacks aren't too much for.



> -has his own gate of babylon



What.



> How does Sol and justice go against that?



By killing it.



> Also Negima has the speed advantage here



Which I've covered.



> and To Aru still has its abilities



Which most of them won't get to use, seeing as they'll die the minute Sol lets off an attack, never mind Justice countrybusting.


----------



## Ulti (Nov 1, 2011)

Gate of Babylon is an ability in Nasuverse, it has every weapon in mythology etc:

Also didn't Justice "country bust" with her army of gears? Or am I remembering it wrong.


----------



## OS (Nov 1, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> Yet Willy says otherwise.


 Touma reacting doesn't mean much when he was still hit and hurt.





> And if we go by that, Sol beat a universal threat.


 Did the universal threat actually do anything? Touma beat a planetary threat (stay with me here) does that mean he's in base stronger than Fiamma?





> Don't see how this factors in.


 Apparently one thing is turning people to salt.





> Which you have yet to prove Sol and Justice's attacks aren't too much for.


I'll get to this later.




> What.


Index can bring legendary weapons out of nowhere and multiple copies of them to use them. Thus Fiamma can since he's connected to her remote.




> By killing it.


What if he kills them first?




> Which I've covered.


What happened then in TL&DR form?





> Which most of them won't get to use, seeing as they'll die the minute Sol lets off an attack, never mind Justice countrybusting.



There is also aleister who should be the fastest in this thread but I can't say he does such and such. Reasonable powerscaling puts him at or above Fiammas highest form.


----------



## Ulti (Nov 1, 2011)

Any Christian legend you say?

That's actually pretty broken.


----------



## OS (Nov 1, 2011)

Ultimecia said:


> Any Christian legend you say?
> 
> That's actually pretty broken.



within acceptable range in the OBD


----------



## Ulti (Nov 1, 2011)

Oh

Does this include Lucifer? As he destroyed a third of the universe with a sweep of his tail in one of the passages of the bible IIRC


----------



## OS (Nov 1, 2011)

Ultimecia said:


> Oh
> 
> Does this include Lucifer? As he destroyed a third of the universe with a sweep of his tail in one of the passages of the bible IIRC



More reasonable than that.

Fiammas attacks are all NLF


----------



## Kurou (Nov 1, 2011)

Original Sin said:


> Touma reacting doesn't mean much when he was still hit and hurt.




Isn't the ability supposed to be an instant kill? so then how did Touma survive?





> Did the universal threat actually do anything?



Never got the chance as Sol should his foot up her ass.



> Touma beat a planetary threat (stay with me here) does that mean he's in base stronger than Fiamma?




That analogy would work if Sol didn't you know, overpower her. Without even transforming.

He's referring to Valentine, who was a threat to the universe considering she basically had access to the cube which would have allowed her control over the universe. 


Until Sol broke it with his penis.


This was stated by Sol,Paradigm,and That Man (the greatest scientific mind in GG).


Seriously, he mentioned this like a page ago.




> Apparently one thing is turning people to salt.





Because that'll work on two beings who are no longer Human.





> Index can bring legendary weapons out of nowhere and multiple copies of them to use them. Thus Fiamma can since he's connected to her remote.




And this helps him how?





> What if he kills them first?




From what you've said, you know, Touma being able to survive and the like, chances are he'd eat a gamma Ray




> What happened then in TL&DR form?




Read his counter to willy


----------



## ~Greed~ (Nov 1, 2011)

To be fair, Fiamma was just playing with Touma the whole fight. He was just spamming random spells and holy right attacks with no intention of killing touma.

edit - maybe this universal entity needed prep time, or got blitzed before it could do anything?


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## Kurou (Nov 1, 2011)

The Cube isn't an entity, it's an isolated space inside the Backyard, gaining access to it allows control of the backyard and by extension, the universe.


She wasn't blitzed or anything. She had time to transform into a megadeth-class gear before fighting him.


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## ~Greed~ (Nov 1, 2011)

~Strike Man~ said:


> The Cube isn't an entity, it's an isolated space inside the Backyard, gaining access to it allows control of the backyard and by extension, the universe.
> 
> 
> She wasn't blitzed or anything. She had time to transform into a megadeth-class gear before fighting him.



Is it like a computer system that she had to access?


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## Kurou (Nov 1, 2011)

It's not a computer system. Magic is no more than energy run through a series of chords and formulas (not literal chords and formulas mind you) to produce a desired result.  The energy comes from the Backyard, which supply is essentially endless. Through research, it was proven that the Backyard is the "template" that allows our current universe to exist. If one could harness the power of the backyard he'd essentially be able to do what he wanted with the universe. That man created an isolated space within the Backyard that would allow him to control all of that energy, the "Cube". It could only be accessed by using the cells of Justice, which Valentine had obtained by kidnapping Sin.

She pretty much had it opened, until Sol broke it with his dick and proceeded to shove his foot up her ass.


Seriously, this was explained a few times already


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## OS (Nov 2, 2011)

~Strike Man~ said:


> Isn't the ability supposed to be an instant kill? so then how did Touma survive?


 Why would Fiamma kill the main part of his plan?

He also did try to blow him up with the planet buster but you should know what happened.







> Never got the chance as Sol should his foot up her ass.


 So it can't be used to say she did x destructive capacity then. And if i am right this is from the Xbox 360 game right? Where Valentine had his lovers face right?





> That analogy would work if Sol didn't you know, overpower her. Without even transforming.
> 
> He's referring to Valentine, who was a threat to the universe considering she basically had access to the cube which would have allowed her control over the universe.
> 
> ...


But she didn't do anything with it right?







> Because that'll work on two beings who are no longer Human.


 Don't see why not? Then there are most likely other things.








> And this helps him how?


 Gael Bolg . Though won't be surprised if Sol can beat that too.








> From what you've said, you know, Touma being able to survive and the like, chances are he'd eat a gamma Ray


You mean him letting Touma live because Toumas IB is the only one in existence and only he is allowed it?






> Read his counter to willy



later


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## Dandy Elegance (Jan 20, 2012)

Don't care about OS's post, because he's OS.

Bringing this back because what the fuck is this shit about Gabriel being harmed by the Knight Leader's melee attacks?

Seriously.  I want an answer on this or I'm gonna argue that either one can fucking solo.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 20, 2012)

Quality necro


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## OS (Jan 20, 2012)

I don't know about it since it never happened. It's fact though that she took a 40 km fortress head on which is said to be country level in destruction.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 20, 2012)

That'd probably depend on how the mass of land hit her honestly.

A flat surface and she's likely only being hit with a fraction of the energy.

To be hit by all the energy?

You'd have to be hit at a point where all the mass was directed on top of her somehow.


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## Dandy Elegance (Jan 20, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> I don't know about it since it never happened. It's fact though that she took a 40 km fortress head on which is said to be country level in destruction.



And Justice has enough firepower to completely obliterate Japan's landmass, and Sol is more powerful than her.

Pretty sure I gave them prep, too, so this is even more fucking lol.


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## Xelloss (Jan 20, 2012)

To answer your question is a statement made by Kanzaki but we have no feat of that, and in the new translation theres no mention of this.

Still this is a nekro and won't change the outcome so mind if I close it?.


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## OS (Jan 20, 2012)

Well this is the part but it doesn't tell anything.



> The speed of descent increased.
> Kamijou Touma ran with everything he head within that fortress.
> At the shore of the Arctic Ocean, at that threshold between land and sea, Kamijou had forcibly destroyed the large ascent spiritual items in order to distort the fortress’s trajectory of descent. He focused on nothing but running in order to oppose the archangel.
> There was something odd on the surface of the earth.
> ...


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## Ulti (Jan 20, 2012)

I want to say top and high tiers could solo

but i don't want to argue in favor of toaru so fire away


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## Dandy Elegance (Jan 20, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> To answer your question is a statement made by Kanzaki but we have no feat of that, and in the new translation theres no mention of this.
> 
> Still this is a nekro and won't change the outcome so mind if I close it?.



Actually, this is pretty relevant to the outcome.

If the Knight Leader can harm Gabriel, you can bet your ass that Sol and Justice can.  Gabriel is really the only thing stopping them from clearing it.


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## Xelloss (Jan 20, 2012)

You shouldn't let your hatred take predecense over the result... but then again I would rather say barney stomps before admiting hitsugaya wins anything.

@Dandy the statement is done from another character, not narrator, theres no feat and the possibility it was a misstranslation from the chinese version (chinese and japanese differ sometimes).


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## willyvereb (Jan 20, 2012)

@Chaostheory123: Gabriel was hit with the rock's narrow edge. 

So in a way it was like Gabriel was stuck with very crude dagger with the length of 40 kilometers.
Touma had to run up to the rock structure's nose to punch Gabriel.


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## Ulti (Jan 20, 2012)

calm your tits xelloss

i was joking around


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 20, 2012)

Fair enough then willy.

continue.


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## OS (Jan 20, 2012)

Dandy Elegance said:


> *Actually, this is pretty relevant to the outcome.*
> 
> If the Knight Leader can harm Gabriel, you can bet your ass that Sol and Justice can.  Gabriel is really the only thing stopping them from clearing it.



Yeah but it's a character statement from a character who herself thought she had a chance against an incredibly weakened Gabriel. She lost btw. As she always does 

As far as i know none of the magicians actually harmed her. Don't think Accelerator hurt her either.


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## Dandy Elegance (Jan 20, 2012)

Xelloss said:


> @Dandy the statement is done from another character, not narrator, theres no feat and the possibility it was a misstranslation from the chinese version (chinese and japanese differ sometimes).



Can I see said statement?


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## Xelloss (Jan 20, 2012)

@Dandy: If I can find it, the rewording of novel have alter it like 3 to 4 times and I haven't re read it.

As I fear theres no trace of that statement now.



> There were special circumstances in that situation, but even so, that was the most ridiculous enemy she had ever faced. She had previously fought an imperfectly manifested version of the Archangel Gabriel and Acqua of the Back who used that angel as a symbol, but she had at least been able to “fight” against them.
> 
> But with Knight Leader she couldn’t even do that.
> 
> ...



@Penetrator >> not when it comes to see a bloody mess of hitsugaya, sasuke or touma all 3 are terrible characters.


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## willyvereb (Jan 20, 2012)

@Ulti: Xellos apparently hates almost every main character in fiction. Touma included.


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## Toriko (Jan 20, 2012)

Rewording like 3 or 4 times?

ToAru seems like a mess


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## willyvereb (Jan 20, 2012)

Nah, it's more like the difference between the original Japanese novel and the Chinese scans. The Chinese translators took a bit of artistic license in their work and it was the cause of confusion.


Translation is a more of a bitch with the increased word count. Especially because ToAru is a novel so the actual meaning of each word can be determinental to the feat in question.


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## Xelloss (Jan 20, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> @Ulti: Xellos apparently hates almost every main character in fiction. Touma included.



I can't put it better, I have almost all main characters (Lina and Shiki are exceptions).


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## OS (Jan 20, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> @Ulti: Xellos apparently hates almost every main character in fiction. Touma included.





Brohan said:


> Rewording like 3 or 4 times?
> 
> ToAru seems like a mess


I think he's exaggerating but after the main translator completed the untranslated parts which were 12?-21 and some of 22 he went to check it all over iirc.


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## Dandy Elegance (Jan 20, 2012)

That's pretty fucking suspect, ladies.


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## TeenRyu (Jan 20, 2012)

Yeah. Only other person, who if feats and possible hype were true that could match up would be Lifemaker, assuming his CotLM could work on them. Waiting for this slow current negima arc to end so we can see all of the lifemaker's feats. Because if he can use it to harm non-magical world inhabitants, then he'll be a major factor with prep.


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## OS (Jan 20, 2012)

Dandy Elegance said:


> That's pretty fucking suspect, ladies.



Not really. Since imo the only noteworthy thing he has done was changed fiamma from star to planet buster.

It's not like we tell him what to put


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## Dandy Elegance (Jan 20, 2012)

Original Sin said:


> Not really. Since imo the only noteworthy thing he has done was changed fiamma from star to planet buster.
> 
> It's not like we tell him what to put



That's exactly what I was implying.


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## willyvereb (Jan 20, 2012)

And actually that confusion originated from the ambigious use of the Japanese world for Star, which actually means stellar object and used to both describe a star or a planet depending on context.
I remember at least a few cases when translators mistakenly used the star thus resulting the inflation of a certain feat in question.
For example Record of the Fallen Vampire. Some minor character in the translation says that Akabara can destroy a star. But in reality he was likely referring to a planet. Given that Adelheit previously threatened everyone with the destruction of the Earth.


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