# Itachi vs. Minato [reflexes]



## Ersa (Nov 15, 2015)

What does base Minato have to compare with 

*Outperforming a Choku-Tomoe EMS user in reflexes
*

*Spoiler*: __ 



_increase_
_increase_



*Simultaneously reacting and dodging two speedsters* 


*Meanwhile Minato's reflexes are only on par with Base Ei who couldn't react to V2 Susanoo in a cloaked state which amplifies his reflexes?
*


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2015)

Not sure if serious, but I'll bite:



Ersad said:


> *Outperforming a Choku-Tomoe EMS user in reflexes.
> *



You should take a closer look at the scans you linked.



Ersad said:


> *Meanwhile Minato's reflexes are only on par with Base Ei who couldn't react to V2 Susanoo in a cloaked state which amplifies his reflexes?*



A _didn't attempt_ to react to the Susanoo clone. It grabbed him from behind while he was screaming at Tsunade, and it's a feat that you or I could accomplish, provided we had the strength to hold A down.

OT: Minato is superior for his feats against v2 A.


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## Ersa (Nov 15, 2015)

I'm talking strictly reflexes, nothing suggests Base Ei with Hirashin couldn't replicate the same feat as Minato.


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2015)

Ersad said:


> I'm talking strictly reflexes, nothing suggests Base Ei with Hirashin couldn't replicate the same feat as Minato.



I agree. I am not sure what that has to do with Itachi, though, who doesn't have response feats that compare to what Minato did against the v2 flash step from five meters away.


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## Vice (Nov 15, 2015)

Let's see, the guy who dodged V2 A vs. the guy who couldn't dodge trap shuriken. Hmm.


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## Ersa (Nov 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I agree. I am not sure what that has to do with Itachi, though, who doesn't have response feats that compare to what Minato did against the v2 flash step from five meters away.


Well I mean it's up to you to decide whether or not EMS Sasuke is better then Base Ei in the reflexes department. To which I say yes.

And even if Ei is better, so is Itachi.


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2015)

Ersad said:


> Well I mean it's up to you to decide whether or not EMS Sasuke is better then Base Ei in the reflexes department. To which I say yes.



Base A is comparable to Minato, who is comparable to KCM Naruto, who is comparable to EMS Sasuke.

Itachi is not better than EMS Sasuke (or the other two). I said it in another thread: Itachi used Susanoo on Sasuke prematurely, which made him too slow to evade the stalagmites. Kabuto was never aiming for Sasuke...


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## Kyu (Nov 15, 2015)

> -Beat Hokage 1-3 to the battlefield with time to spare
> 
> -Flickered past a beast that gave a Sage trouble_ at half power_
> 
> -Intercepted a genetically enhanced 3T sharingan user before he could finish a single swing



 A kid blatantly slower than Minato outmaneuvered Ei in his regular lightning armor. 

Max RCM Ei > Minato w/o Hiraishin = normal RCM > Base Ei


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2015)

Kyu said:


> A kid blatantly slower than Minato outmaneuvered Ei in his regular lightning armor.



You know, it _is_ possible to counter punch somebody that has better reflexes than you do, _especially_ if you're clairvoyant.


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## Elite Uchiha (Nov 15, 2015)

This isn't even a comparison. Minato reacted to 8th gated gai, while Itachi was getting shitted on by Kabuto. Even as the original Uchiha fan, I can't even deny that Minato >>>>>>> Itachi.


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## Ersa (Nov 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Base A is comparable to Minato, who is comparable to KCM Naruto, who is comparable to EMS Sasuke.
> 
> Itachi is not better than EMS Sasuke (or the other two). I said it in another thread: Itachi used Susanoo on Sasuke prematurely, which made him too slow to evade the stalagmites. Kabuto was never aiming for Sasuke...


Glad we can agree on Minato being equal to EMS Sasuke (initial).

There's a panel of Itachi reacting to the stalagmites, he didn't use it pre-maturely. It doesn't explain the complete lack of reaction from Sasuke who didn't even notice Itachi do anything. If his reflexes are really on par he could've taken some degree of action rather then sit on his ass.


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## Kyu (Nov 15, 2015)

> You know, it is possible to counter punch somebody that has better reflexes than you do, especially if you're clairvoyant.



You do realize the sharingan doesn't magically grant you the speed to dodge someone right? It simply makes it easier by granting extraordinary perception by accurately predicting the opponent's next move. It's up to the user's physical ability to move accordingly, which Sasuke managed to do apparently. 

A younger version of 3T Sasuke would've gotten his face caved in whether he saw Ei's big black elbow coming or not.


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2015)

Ersad said:


> There's a panel of Itachi reacting to the stalagmites, he didn't use it pre-maturely. It doesn't explain the complete lack of reaction from Sasuke who didn't even notice Itachi do anything. If his reflexes are really on par he could've taken some degree of action rather then sit on his ass.



Kabuto turned the entire cave in a weapon. This was not a matter of Sasuke completely failing to perceive a bunch of pointy rocks closing in on him (does Muki Tensei blitz Minato?). It is a technique meant to overwhelm the opponent from different angles, not go too fast for them to see. 

Itachi placed his Susanoo over Sasuke before the stalagmites got anywhere near them either of them, which made him too slow to actually evade them, or so Kabuto says. He was _not_ blocking them from hitting a Sasuke who could not respond himself, and you can see in that scan that there are no spikes _even touching_ Susanoo. 

You need to keep in mind that Itachi is a quick thinker and had absolutely no problem with sacrificing his *immortal body* to ensure Sasuke's survival. It _was_ premature, because Kabuto _literally said_ he wasn't going to spike Sasuke to death.


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2015)

Kyu said:


> It's up to the user's physical ability to move accordingly, which Sasuke managed to do apparently.



Okay? You don't need to be faster than A to dodge his taijutsu lol.


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## Kyu (Nov 15, 2015)

Who said anything about being faster? All that's needed is their speed to be in the same ballpark.


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## Ersa (Nov 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Kabuto turned the entire cave in a weapon. This was not a matter of Sasuke completely failing to perceive a bunch of pointy rocks closing in on him (does Muki Tensei blitz Minato?). It is a technique meant to overwhelm the opponent from different angles, not go too fast for them to see.


I think EMS Sasuke failing to make any sort of reaction implies the technique is pretty fast yeah. And Minato could likely last-second Hirashin out of there, although perhaps he'd get a scratch.



> Itachi placed his Susanoo over Sasuke before the stalagmites got anywhere near them either of them, which made him too slow to actually evade them, or so Kabuto says. He was _not_ blocking them from hitting a Sasuke who could not respond himself, and you can see in that scan that there are no spikes _even touching_ Susanoo.


_increase_

They were coming in one direction at first, Itachi sees it and reacts. Sasuke continues staring forward at nothing if you look at the next page. Sasuke was staring *ahead*, not above.

-> Muki Tensei is activated, Sasuke goes "?!" and the floor starts to rise.
-> Spikes shoot at them from the ceiling, at this point they are in one direction, no clear target (diagonal lines implies direction).
-> Itachi looks up, goes "!!" decides to put Susanoo on Sasuke.
-> Spikes that were all going diagonally prior, all hit Itachi in the next panel who was slown down.
-> Sasuke didn't notice the overhead spikes cause he had no reaction to this series of events.



> You need to keep in mind that Itachi is a quick thinker and had absolutely no problem with sacrificing his *immortal body* to ensure Sasuke's survival. It _was_ premature, because Kabuto _literally said_ he wasn't going to spike Sasuke to death.


No, Itachi fucked up there.

He saw the spikes coming in one direction and assumed they were going for both of them but was wrong. That's why he apologized after. But he reacted. Meanwhile Sasuke had zero reaction to anything. It's a difference of reflections no matter how you look at it.

What good reason would Sasuke have to do nothing if actually did see the spikes coming in one direction? Because he can mind-read? Why not do something? Techniques like Susanoo are faster then KCM Minato so why drool at Kabuto while Itachi does shit behind him?


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Who said anything about being faster? All that's needed is their speed to be in the same ballpark.



No, you don't need speed in the same ballpark. KN1 was _significantly _faster than Sasuke (hell, even KN0 was), but Sasuke was able to evade him.


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2015)

Ersad said:


> Let's say Sasuke could react to it and the spikes initially did not show a target. Why stand there going "HUURRRRRRRRR" while Itachi puts a Susanoo around him?



How about because there weren't any spikes near him yet?


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## ARGUS (Nov 15, 2015)

Minato reacted to Madaras TSB, and V2 Ays  top shunshin from under 20m 
this is faster than anything itachi has ever reacted to. whose best feat is fighting at CQC against KCM Naruto and DSM kabuto 

KCM naruto never used shunshin against Itachi. and kabuto had the upper hand in CQC against itachi in multiple occasions. indicating that he is more reflexive than itachi.


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## Ersa (Nov 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> How about because there weren't any spikes near him yet?


At one point there is a bunch of spikes going towards him.



Why's he looking ahead instead of up? It's almost like he didn't react.


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2015)

Question: Why did Sasuke need to react to an attack _not aimed at him?_


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## Ersa (Nov 15, 2015)

Question: How did Sasuke know a wall of spikes coming at him from the ceiling was not aimed at him?


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## Kyu (Nov 15, 2015)

> No, you don't need speed in the same ballpark. KN1 was significantly faster than Sasuke , but Sasuke was able to evade him.



_By the skin of his teeth_ and that meant nothing as Naruto cracked him in the jaw in that very exchange.

Pseudo precognition is virtually worthless if your body can't keep up with what you're trying to avoid. That is where techniques requiring no motion of the body(e.g. FTG, Susano'o) compensate.



> (hell, even KN0 was)



If his newly awakened 3 tomoe sharingan managed to even the odds, the gap in speed wasn't nearly as significant as you may want to believe.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 15, 2015)

Kabuto simply exploited Itachi's knowledge on his intentions and initally went after Sasuke, forcing Itachi to react and once Kabuto had perceived that, decided to attack Itachi instead, acknowledging that his reflexes had slowed down by using Susano'o and protecting Sasuke.

 Actually, Itachi's reaction afterwards didn't imply any sort of shock at all. He had anticipated it, but he was either too slow to react or either forced himself to get hit. The latter actually makes sense as Itachi acknowledged Kabuto's intentions and implied that Kabuto was aiming to reach Sasuke before either of them had knowledge on Kabuto's techniques. By allowing himself to get hit, he allowed Sasuke to instead, prepare a defensive maneuvor, forcing Kabuto to utilize other techniques which Itachi could exploit and eventually prepare Izanagi.

 Depends on your interpretation, but Itachi certainly anticipated it.

 The only person who expressed any sort of shock initially was Sasuke:

_increase_

 So the idea that Itachi couldn't perceive the movements of the spikes is illogical. Even Kabuto earlier acknowledged Itachi's ability to analyze Kabuto's intentions and confirmed that Itachi's statement of easily anticipating Kabuto's target was obvious:

_increase_
_increase_


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2015)

Ersad said:


> Question: How did Sasuke know a wall of spikes coming at him from the ceiling was not aimed at him?



I don't understand the question. 

Sasuke is waiting for the attack. He is going to try and dodge it like a normal person. Suddenly, Itachi places Susanoo over him.

The attack never comes to Sasuke, but instead kills Itachi who was too busy trying to unnecessarily protect Sasuke to dodge the attack.

This was never a matter of reflexes, and nobody in their right mind would think that Sasuke couldn't perceive a rock.


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2015)

Kyu said:


> _By the skin of his teeth_ and that meant nothing as Naruto cracked him in the jaw in that very exchange.



Naruto did not crack anything in the jaw with his speed, which is what we are discussing. 



Kyu said:


> Pseudo precognition is virtually worthless if your body can't keep up with what you're trying to avoid.



I'm aware. Sasuke's body was never incapable of responding. He was having issues seeing Naruto's movement in time. 

The matured Sharingan slowed Naruto down and added a precognitive element, allowing Sasuke to be proactive. 

It is no different with the Raikage's taijutsu.



Kyu said:


> If his newly awakened 3 tomoe sharingan managed to even the odds, the gap in speed wasn't nearly as significant as you may want to believe.



Sasuke was literally just punching a spot and Naruto was running into his fist. Sasuke does not need comparable speed to Naruto to do that.

If you're ten meters away from me, and you suddenly come at me at 60mph, I'm fucked. _But_, if I have magic eyes that accelerate my perception ("slow you down" in my mind) and tell me exactly where you are going to be in a moment, I can just punch that spot and you'll run into my fist. 

I don't need to be capable of_ running at you_ at 60mph in order to do this.


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## Ersa (Nov 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't understand the question.
> 
> Sasuke is waiting for the attack. He is going to try and dodge it like a normal person. Suddenly, Itachi places Susanoo over him.
> 
> ...


So why did he react...after the Susanoo was placed over him?

What was he doing about the wall of spikes coming towards him *initially*?


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2015)

Ersad said:


> What was he doing about the wall of spikes coming towards him *initially*?



Er, waiting for one of the stalagmites to actually threaten him? When the entire cave starts attacking you, you can't exactly move early. What did you want him to do?


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## Rocky (Nov 15, 2015)

Btw, I think I want to amend my original assessment. 

I think in super reflexes, it goes Minato ≥ KCM Naruto ~ EMS Sasuke > Itachi ≥ MS Sasuke.


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## ARGUS (Nov 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Btw, I think I want to amend my original assessment.
> 
> I think in super reflexes, it goes Minato ≥ KCM Naruto (at his best) ~ EMS Sasuke > Itachi ≥ MS Sasuke.



EMS sasuke >>> minato in reactions 
KCM Naruto > Minato too 
Since he reacted to Ays top shunshin quicker and was keeping up with V1 juubito and KCM minato


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## Rocky (Nov 16, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Since he reacted to Ays top shunshin quicker and was keeping up with V1 juubito and KCM minato



Naruto's reaction feat against A was less impressive than Minato's as it included no counter attack. EMS Sasuke was largely comparable to KCM Naruto, which makes sense. MS Sasuke couldn't follow A, so EMS Sasuke being around KCM Naruto (who _could_ follow A) makes sense.

Sasuke later matched Bijū-fucking-Sage Naruto's perception feat against Obito, so _maybe_ that had something to do with Naruto's Chakra Shroud and Jūgo's Curse Seal.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 16, 2015)

It's not like Naruto tried to counter and failed, though.

He was interested in getting past Ay, not beating him up.


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## Rocky (Nov 16, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It's not like Naruto tried to counter and failed, though.
> 
> He was interested in getting past Ay, not beating him up.



I know, which is why I used the "greater _or equal to_" symbol. Minato's feat was more impressive, but I'm not certain that Naruto is incapable of the same.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2015)

Itachi reacted to Kirin, which strikes in one one-thousandth of a second.

Game, set, match.


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## Rocky (Nov 16, 2015)

We don't know how fast that is in comparison to the other ninja. For all we know, Raikage can travel five meters in .000001 seconds.

Not to mention it's possible that Itachi reacted to Sasuke's hand, which preempts Kirin.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 16, 2015)

Rocky said:


> We don't know how fast that is in comparison to the other ninja. For all we know, Raikage can travel five meters in .000001 seconds.
> 
> Not to mention it's possible that Itachi reacted to Sasuke's hand, which preempts Kirin.



 He activated Susano'o the instant before Kirin made contact with him.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2015)

There are ways to try to quantify A's max speed, but they all dubiously rely on real-world physics that won't necessarily yield a result consistent with all his performances.

In any case, Sasuke put his hand down before Itachi had erected Susano'o. It's not really any different than A warning Naruto and Minato that he is coming at them with his full speed before he actually does it.

Bottom line though, we have a hard number for Itachi's window of reaction time; Minato's is open to interpretation.

And if you wanna go further down the rabbit hole, Deva Path reacting to and full-body jumping FRS an inch from his body is a better feat than at-will blocking lightning coming down from 100m+ away. But, again, real-world physics, consistency, yadda yadda.


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## Rocky (Nov 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> He activated Susano'o the instant before Kirin made contact with him.



You mean Susanoo _manifested_ the instant before Kirin made contact.



Nikushimi said:


> It's not really any different than A warning Naruto and Minato that he is coming at them with his full speed before he actually does it.



A never warned Minato.



Nikushimi said:


> Bottom line though, we have a hard number for Itachi's window of reaction time.



Nobody cares. It's useless without other numbers.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 16, 2015)

Rocky said:


> A never warned Minato.



My bad. I was remembering the second time he attempted to blitz Minato.



> Nobody cares. It's useless without other numbers.



You can look at things like how far Minato's backpack fell before he blitzed that Iwa fodder in the Kakashi Gaiden, or his reaction to Bijuudama from across a village (which is comparable to FRS, which we have a fairly definite speed for via Pain's Shinra Tensei cooldown count and the distance of the Chibaku Tensei debris field).

So we do have numbers for Minato, but you have to do a little work for them.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 16, 2015)

Base Ei reflexes are only at Tsunade's level , nothing more , saying Minato is only taht reflexsive is just shitting on the manga , it's pretty cleat that Cee compared him to V2 Ei since he never fought him without his RCM ,and was always using his V2 .

Another feat , Minato fought V2 Ei+V1/2 Bee several times , he can't do that only using Tsunade's like reflexes . Any other attemption is just trolling , but I accept those who says Minato is jus barely aboe V1 Ei .

*Edit :* I jut looked at the poll  . Since there is no Minato I will vote Base Ei because that's what I call trolling . lol


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## Alex Payne (Nov 16, 2015)

Kishimoto can't draw Gamabunta's size consistently and you want to gauge speed from this stuff? You think he keeps physics in mind when drawing?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Nov 16, 2015)

Loool no. You just arent understanding the manga properly and have totally mosread. But no worries, the databook clarifies.



Minatos speed and reflexes are as fast as rcm Raikage. Its clearly stated. "Praised to be as fast as the yellow flash"... PRAISED BY WHO? Cee obviously, thats who the db is referring to, Cee is the one that made the ststement and the databook reinforces his statement. Cee was never talking about base raikge. Only a fool lacking common sense and eyes would say that because Raikage was never in base during the entire taka fight. You have suigetsu and jugo reacting to him, yet this fool idiotically thinks minatos reflexes are bekow jugos and suigetsus. Smh


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## Itachі (Nov 16, 2015)

I have no idea who really has faster reflexes but I think it's safe to say that it's _probably_ Minato.


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## Trojan (Nov 16, 2015)

itachi's reflexes are phenomenal. 


Of course he is the best.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 16, 2015)

Fastest attack Minato reacted to with jutsu activation : V2 A
Fastest attack Itachi reacted to with Jutsu activation : Kirin

I'd say Itachi has the edge here

In terms of physical reactions, Itachi still holds the edge, as he can casually dodge B while he is duking out with Naruto.

These are all based on feats obviously.

I would put Minato on Itachi's level just based on hype tho.



Rocky said:


> Question: Why did Sasuke need to react to an attack _not aimed at him?_



It was an AOE attack, Sasuke couldn't have known it wasn't aimed @ him. The whole cave came on top of them.



Hussain said:


> itachi's reflexes are phenomenal.
> 
> 
> Of course he is the best.



Minato is better at getting owned 
Link removed


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## ARGUS (Nov 16, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Naruto's reaction feat against A was less impressive than Minato's *as it included no counter attack*.


What the hell. . 
counterattacking has got nothing to do with how fast you react. 
naruto actually physically evaded Ays strike whilst Minato just had to mentally process and teleport. so how can minatos feat be more impressive? 


then theres the actual time taken to react for both Minato and kCM naruto

Minato  reacting to Ay 


KCM naruto reacting to AY 


looking closely at the images, we can tell that naruto reacted faster 




> EMS Sasuke was largely comparable to KCM Naruto, which makes sense. MS Sasuke couldn't follow A, so EMS Sasuke being around KCM Naruto (who _could_ follow A) makes sense.
> 
> Sasuke later matched Bijū-fucking-Sage Naruto's perception feat against Obito, so _maybe_ that had something to do with Naruto's Chakra Shroud and Jūgo's Curse Seal.


[/quote]

Except we have seen EMS sasuke reacting faster than KCM Minato and KCM Naruto *by body flickering from this distance* and *blocking juubitos strike* before  *KCM minato could even teleport* or use his superior shunshin, and whilst KCM naruto was still on free fall 

sasuke keeping up with BSM naruto is because of the cloak i must admit.
But his reactions are still superior to KCM naruto either  way, 

and then you have base minato above EMS sasuke based on no reason at all. when sasuke outperformed fucking KCM minato. 

and you have base minato above KCM naruto when we have also seen KCM naruto reacting to juubito and reacting faster than even KCM minato on an occasion

him reacting to juubito should be a nail on the head, to state that he is faster than base minato 
who  _barely _reacted V2 Ays shunshin. 
unless you think that juubito is slower than Ay, 

so in terms of reactions: 
EMS Sasuke > KCM Minato > KCM naruto > Minato


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## hbcaptain (Nov 16, 2015)

Euh , no the time Minato reacted was the time he launched the Kunai , so basically it's that moment :

It's pretty clear that Raikage's punch was closer to KCM Naruto , then after Minato launched the Kunai the punch nearly touched his nose before teleporting and couter-attacking . *Not to mention Ei was much closer to Minato before he started his Shunsin .
*

Now I know ARGUS is just a troller saying _KCM Naruto's reflexes are comparable KCM Minato's ._


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 16, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> What the hell. .
> counterattacking has got nothing to do with how fast you react.
> naruto actually physically evaded Ays strike whilst Minato just had to mentally process and teleport. so how can minatos feat be more impressive?
> 
> ...



The distance wasn't the same in these panels. Minato was closer to Ay than Naruto was. So this comparison doesn't work. Lol, and not to mention he reacted by tossing the Kunai, so if anything this panel portrays that Base Minato>KCM Naruto in reaction speed. 



> Except we have seen EMS sasuke reacting faster than KCM Minato and KCM Naruto *by body flickering from this distance* and *blocking juubitos strike* before  *KCM minato could even teleport* or use his superior shunshin, and whilst KCM naruto was still on free fall




He didn't react faster than Naruto, Naruto couldn't do anything. Minato? Technically Minato reacted first, but Sasuke was able to reach there before Minato could complete his action so that could put their reaction speed near each other.





> [and you have base minato above KCM naruto when we have also seen KCM naruto reacting to juubito and reacting faster than even KCM minato on an occasion
> 
> him reacting to juubito should be a nail on the head, to state that he is faster than base minato
> who  _barely _reacted V2 Ays shunshin.
> ...



That obviously isn't him reacting to Juubito. That's clearly him reacting to the Gudo Dama, which in itself isn't a feat unless Hiruzen is a speedster now.

EMS Sasuke>= (most likely > since Sasuke was already doing a good job of keeping up without his upgraded precognition) KCM Minato>Minato>KCM Naruto>=Itachi.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 16, 2015)

I also forgot that Minato easily evaded Raikage's full speed at a distance of 5/6m :


Then , he evaded in such position , Raikage was much closr to KCM Naruto at much further distance :


C/C : Base Minato is notably more reflexive than KCM Naruto .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 16, 2015)

^
Lol no. They both evaded raikage, its a similarity, not a difference


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 16, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> ^
> Lol no. They both evaded raikage, its a similarity, not a difference



Avoiding a bullet shot fired 5 meters from you is the same as avoiding a bullet fired 25 meters from you?


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 16, 2015)

Ersad said:


> What does base Minato have to compare with
> 
> *Outperforming a Choku-Tomoe EMS user in reflexes
> *



That's a nice feat. But the idea that Sasuke could not react is a bit asinine. Sasuke did not see through technique. More experienced and smarter Itachi realized what was going on and reacted accordingly. 



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

What? Are you mad son? This is hardly an impressive reaction feat. Naruto isn't using his crazy flicker. He's standing his ground and trading blows with Itachi while the former is explaining something. The same goes for dodging Bee. It's impressive in terms of having some serious Taijutsu skills, but it's hardly an impressive reaction feat.




> > *Meanwhile Minato's reflexes are only on par with Base Ei who couldn't react to V2 Susanoo in a cloaked state which amplifies his reflexes?
> > *[
> 
> 
> ...


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## Rocky (Nov 16, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Fastest attack Minato reacted to with jutsu activation : V2 A
> Fastest attack Itachi reacted to with Jutsu activation : Kirin
> 
> I'd say Itachi has the edge here



Sasuke compared Kirin to Amaterasu which in turn was slower than v2 A. 

gg. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> In terms of physical reactions, Itachi still holds the edge, as he can casually dodge B while he is duking out with Naruto.





That's not even particularly impressive; Base B isn't a speed demon.

You can't really compare their flicker speed, though, because Minato doesn't use Shunshin (Hiraishin > Shunshin). Every time he uses Shunshin is an interception feat, and if you want to use _those_ for comparison, Minato kinda wins hard.  

Minato's best actual body movement feats are flicking up the kunai he was holding with v2 A an inch from his face & the mess that happened with Gai & the Truth Seekers. Those are both lolkishis, _buuuut_ you wanted to do feat comparisons. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> It was an AOE attack, Sasuke couldn't have known it wasn't aimed @ him. The whole cave came on top of them.



In order for it to be a threat to him, one of the stalagmites has to actually go near him lol.



ARGUS said:


> naruto actually physically evaded Ays strike whilst Minato just had to mentally process and teleport.



Naruto & Minato both reacted with jutsu activation.  



ARGUS said:


> *before KCM minato could even teleport*



Your whole post is based on this misconception.

Minato _couldn't _teleport. The mark on Obito had vanished, which is where he was trying to teleport to.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 16, 2015)

People seems to always forget about it but the Minato in the flash-back was only 20 years old , he had 4 long years to improve his speed even more since that .


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 16, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> People seems to always forget about it but the Minato in the flash-back was only 20 years old , he had 4 long years to improve his speed even more since that .



In fact, here's an example of how much Minato improved. Minato reacts to an explosion that has already detonated during his first encounter with Tobi. The bomb goes off when Minato is in the birthing cave with Tobi and Kushina. He was quick enough to notice the bomb, pull Naruto out of the cover, teleport and then  jump away from the explosion.

I think it's an underestimated feat. Real world explosions move at 8000m/s. Assuming Naruto was 1 meter from Minato's face, the boi did all the mentioned above in 1/8000th. That shit's on Itachi's Kirin feat by a significant amount boi. But anyway, I rarely use this in conversation because there's really no need to. The Raikage reaction feat is good enough.


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## Rocky (Nov 16, 2015)

Guys, in the Obito fight, Minato _swung his Rasengan down_ before the kunai that he threw _could move at all._ That's some serious strike speed, but here's the kicker: Minato has _v3_ kunai. V4 Minato confimred. 

g.

g.


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## Elite Uchiha (Nov 16, 2015)

Minato made the Raikage look like a slug.

Minato:

- released the kunai
- Hirashin'd to the tree
- Hirashin'd back to the Raikage
- Grabbed the kunai
- Attacked the Raikage

All before the Raikage could even react


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 16, 2015)

Well the only thing Itachi has that can compare is reacting to the Kirin technique, which hits at 1/1000th of a second (0.001 second). 

That being said, it's not that hard to assume some of the techniques Minato avoided are comparable to that level of speed, if not outright superior.

>Avoiding V2 Ei from roughly 15m (without knowledge)
>Counter blitzes and strikes V2 Ei without reaction
>Avoiding V2 Ei from roughly 5m (with knowledge, Ei blitzes with Minato's back turned)
>Avoiding Kamui (without knowledge)
>Warping in, making contact with TSB in transit, warping out before they go through his body

Kirin may be comparable to all of these techniques, but there's really little basis for it. A natural lightning strike has blinding speed, but the above techniques are the pinnacle of this verses' supernatural speed (prior to getting into god level speed).

That being said, even if the Kirin reaction was superior to all of these techniques, it's only a Susano manifestation reaction. In other words, if Susano were restrcited or someone were close enough for Susano not to affect them (in his face- within the space of a Susano), his reaction would be meaningless. The Susano certainly can't attack with this level of speed, all Itachi showed was he could manifest it.


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## Trojan (Nov 16, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato is better at getting owned
> mind control MS genjutsu



Are you implying that
1- getting counter attacked by JJ SM Madara is worst than getting owned by Kabuto who's a bug in comparison?

2- Not only that, but you think getting 1 arm chopped of, is worst that your entire body getting cut in half? :amazed


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## hbcaptain (Nov 16, 2015)

Just comparing Kabuto a Juubi Jin


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## Sadgoob (Nov 16, 2015)

Minato has slower reflexes, but can "react" faster with Hiraishin. In the same instant Itachi (no Sharingan) throws up Susano'o at the last possible second, Minato can physically dodge with Hiraishin.

Not only can Minato physically dodge, but then upon relocation, his enemy is confused and vulnerable. Minato knows exactly where his enemy is, but they don't know where Minato is.

This allows Minato to capitalize on enemies in much the same way we've seen Itachi capitalize on enemies post-clone-feint. This isn't so much raw speed, as relocation, misdirection, and opportunism.

As far as reflexes themselves go, when removing Hiraishin from the equation, Itachi's better. Top tier reflexes, like Minato, but with magic eyes and the soul-reading battle foresight Kabuto hyped. Duh.​


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 16, 2015)

Itachi - 6
 Minato - 4

 Guess Itachi was the better fighter afterall.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 16, 2015)

There is no Minato in the poll

Replace the second ooption with Minato and you will see the great change .


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## Rocky (Nov 16, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> As far as reflexes themselves go, when removing Hiraishin from the equation, Itachi's better. Top tier reflexes, like Minato, but with magic eyes and the soul-reading battle foresight Kabuto hyped. Duh.



Are you really starting with the "peak human" shit again? Not all tier fives are the same. Scrubuto's hand-seals ≠ Itachi's hand-seals.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 16, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> There is no Minato in the poll
> 
> Replace the second ooption with Minato and you will see the great change .



 Oh shit, got me there.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 16, 2015)

Even base Ei can rivals 3TS Itach in reflexes


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## hbcaptain (Nov 16, 2015)

Only Itachi fans are placing Minato on Tsunade's reflexes level .


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## hbcaptain (Nov 16, 2015)

According to Cee :
V2 Prime Ei<=Minato in reflexes 
Since when Ei fought Minato without his V2 lol.

The second page was a Genjutsu lol .

Itachi is really humiliated here , even base Ei is standing against him well , him lus his Sharingan .


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## Rocky (Nov 16, 2015)

V2 A's reflexes >> Minato's reflexes. Minato's around base A apparently.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 16, 2015)

Only a Raikage (and Itachi) fan would say that , Minato's reflexes>Ei , the fourth fought both V2 Ei+V1/2 Bee many times and never got touched ever once . Noraml fns place Minato notably above 3TS Itachi himself slightly above 3TS Sasuke himself above V1 Raikage .

Raikage is nothing more than a normal Kage level in reflexes if we remove his RCM .

Plus Raikage never fought Minato without his V2 , to compare his slow base version to him .


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## Sadgoob (Nov 16, 2015)

Yeah, guys. We're the silly ones. Saying that Minato doesn't equal v2 A in reflexes...​


Rocky said:


> Are you really starting with the "peak human" shit again? Not all tier fives are the same. Scrubuto's hand-seals ≠ Itachi's hand-seals.



Hand seals incorporates both proficiency and _knowledge_. Speed, strength, etc. is more cut and dry as a physical ability. I consider all physical 5's to be more or less equal in base, with their enhancements making the difference from that point.​


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## FlamingRain (Nov 16, 2015)

Kisame wouldn't have been overpowering Gai if that was the case.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 16, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Kisame wouldn't have been overpowering Gai if that was the case.



Kisame's not human. So "peak human" doesn't apply to him.


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## Rocky (Nov 16, 2015)

I'm currently working on an entire super speed break down from an "outside the manga" point of view that'll I'll post soon. I thought writing everything down might help to organize my thoughts.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 16, 2015)

In my view, Minato without Hiraishin, Itachi without the Sharingan, Gai without Gates, and A without his shroud are all equally top speed ninja. Their boosts just give them different speed/reflex advantages.

0. Gai, Lee (Goku) (Super Saiyan limited by body injury)
1. Minato, Tobirama (Nightcrawler) (teleportation limited by tags)
2. Ei, KCM Naruto (Quicksilver) (god-speed limited to charged bursts) 
3. Itachi, Kakashi (Jedi) (short-term precognition, enhanced perception)​


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## Rocky (Nov 16, 2015)

The thing I'm working on will cover all forms of speed in the manga. I mean, they're all just common tropes taken from other works of fiction before it. The main problems _*by far*_ are the inconsistencies (due to plot) and the lack of clarity on what Shunshin is. I'm covering all of that though.


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## ARGUS (Nov 17, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> The distance wasn't the same in these panels. Minato was closer to Ay than Naruto was. So this comparison doesn't work. Lol, and not to mention he reacted by tossing the Kunai, so if anything this panel portrays that Base Minato>KCM Naruto in reaction speed.


No no, i meant this. 



we can clearly see that Ays fist is closer to minato then it is for naruto. 
then theres the fact that instead of just tossing a kunai up. naruto physically evaded Ay altogether 
how can minatos feat be superior? 



> He didn't react faster than Naruto, Naruto couldn't do anything. Minato? Technically Minato reacted first, but Sasuke was able to reach there before Minato could complete his action so that could put their reaction speed near each other.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ok 



> EMS Sasuke>= (most likely > since Sasuke was already doing a good job of keeping up without his upgraded precognition) KCM Minato>Minato>KCM Naruto>=Itachi.



EMS Sasuke > KCM Minato > KCM naruto >= Minato > Itachi 

itachi is not equivalent to KCM naruto in reactions. unless we are ready to accept that he is somehow faster than V2 Ay.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 17, 2015)

V2 Raikage's Shunshin at 25m against KCM Naruto :


Prime V2 Shunshin against Minato at 5m :


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## ARGUS (Nov 17, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> V2 Raikage's Shunshin at 25m against KCM Naruto :
> 
> 
> Prime V2 Shunshin against Minato at 5m :



Lol read the manga, pal 

in that second instance. Ay wasnt even using shunshin as we can clearly see him running towards minato, and when he intended to make minato teleport and then use his top speed to get him afterwards 

shitty post from you, as usual


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## hbcaptain (Nov 17, 2015)

LOL What an excuse .
Plus even in the first panel Minato reacted here :

Then he launched the Kunai that's why Ei's unch got near his nose .

Not to mention the distance , KCM Naruto was much much further even in the first instance .


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 17, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> *Minato has slower reflexes*, but can "react" faster with Hiraishin. In the same instant Itachi (no Sharingan) throws up Susano'o at the last possible second, Minato can physically dodge with Hiraishin.
> 
> Not only can Minato physically dodge, but then upon relocation, his enemy is confused and vulnerable. Minato knows exactly where his enemy is, but they don't know where Minato is.
> 
> ...



You have absolutely no proof of the bolded. Minato has shown superior reflexes for reasons stated again and again.


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2015)

KCM Naruto did not evade A with his stock combat speed/fast taijutsu speed. He activated a ninjutsu, same as Minato.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke compared Kirin to Amaterasu which in turn was slower than v2 A.
> 
> gg.


Amaterasu isn't slower than A. 
Just because you can dodge a bullet doesn't mean you can move faster than a bullet. 



> That's not even particularly impressive; Base B isn't a speed demon.
> 
> You can't really compare their flicker speed, though, because Minato doesn't use Shunshin (Hiraishin > Shunshin). Every time he uses Shunshin is an interception feat, and if you want to use _those_ for comparison, Minato kinda wins hard.
> 
> Minato's best actual body movement feats are flicking up the kunai he was holding with v2 A an inch from his face & the mess that happened with Gai & the Truth Seekers. Those are both lolkishis, _buuuut_ you wanted to do feat comparisons.


Casually dodging a blindsiding B while duking it out with KCM Naruto, and moving a good 8 meters with a somersault before B can even recover from that swing is very impressive body speed no matter how you look at it, and Minato doesn't have anything that is comparable.

I'm not saying Minato couldn't replicate it, going by hype and portrayal, he should. 

But going strictly by feats, Itachi has just better ones.

Wrist flicking isn't impressive.




> In order for it to be a threat to him, one of the stalagmites has to actually go near him lol.


The whole cave was moving, and up until the last second there was no way of knowing whether the stalagmites would hit Sasuke or not. Itachi reacted faster to Kabuto's jutsu and protected Sasuke. 
You may call it a preemptive move but then, both Sasuke and Itachi were exposed to the same technique and unless Sasuke read Kabuto's mind(which he didn't) the only conclusion you are left with is that Itachi reacted and acted faster.
Which is in correlation with how they fared against Kabuto when executing their jutsu.
Sasuke starts ealier than Kabuto and Kabuto still counters him.
Itachi simply executes his jutsu before Kabuto can even finish casting his.



OutlawJohn said:


> Avoiding a bullet shot fired 5 meters from you is the same as avoiding a bullet fired 25 meters from you?


Naruto dodged it on foot, Minato dodged it with a thought.
What Minato did was alot easier to pull, obviously.



Hussain said:


> Are you implying that
> 1- getting counter attacked by JJ SM Madara is worst than getting owned by Kabuto who's a bug in comparison?
> 
> 2- Not only that, but you think getting 1 arm chopped of, is worst that your entire body getting cut in half? :amazed



1 - Yes, because in the latter, Kabuto ambushed Itachi when Itachi left himself exposed.
In the former, Minato tried to ambush Madara and got completely shit on with straightforward attacks.

2 - You think Madara wouldn't be able to chop Minato in 4 pieces if he wanted to ? 
He chopped Minato's arm, kicked his arm away and then kicked Minato before Minato could blink.
And Minato was using SM


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2015)

On a phone, so not going to multi-quote, but a few things:

1.) Amaterasu isn't a bullet. A didn't have to just step out of the way before it got anywhere near him. He somehow dodged it manifesting onto his body. Even if Amaterasu does travel, A would be faster than it for the same reason KCM Naruto is faster than A.

2.) Minato has better speed feats than Itachi does without Hiraishin, but I think they're too good lol. Interception feats be cray. That is why I think it's better to just pretend that Minato has no real feats outside of Hiraishin, and say he wins hype.

3.) I think people assume that Sasuke tried to react to Muki Tensei with Susanoo and failed, but I don't think that was ever the indication. 

4.) KCM Naruto & Minato both evaded A with no-seal ninjutsu. Neither did it with the Fast Taijutsu speed Gai & Lee use.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> On a phone, so not going to multi-quote, but a few things:
> 
> 1.) Amaterasu isn't a bullet. A didn't have to just step out of the way before it got anywhere near him. He somehow dodged it manifesting onto his body. Even if Amaterasu does travel, A would be faster than it for the same reason KCM Naruto is faster than A.


X dodging Y doesn't make X faster than Y.
This is a universal rule.



> 2.) Minato has better speed feats than Itachi does without Hiraishin, but I think they're too good lol. Interception feats be cray. That is why I think it's better to just pretend that Minato has no real feats outside of Hiraishin, and say he wins hype.


Yes, if you go by interception feats, I am pretty sure I can dig up some insane feats for not particularly fast characters.



> 3.) I think people assume that Sasuke tried to react to Muki Tensei with Susanoo and failed, but I don't think that was ever the indication.


No, Itachi reacted faster, so Sasuke probably didn't even try to manifest Susano'O because he was already protected by it.



> 4.) KCM Naruto & Minato both evaded A with no-seal ninjutsu. Neither did it with the Fast Taijutsu speed Gai & Lee use.


Naruto used his legs(shunshin is accelerated movement), Minato used his thoughts.


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2015)

If something is an inch away from your body when you dodge it, you are probably faster than it lol. The interception feat thing we agree on, which is why I said what I said before: Pretend Minato has no feats and just say he wins hype. If we use his actual feats, he is Jesusly. 

If Sasuke was never trying to react with Susanoo to begin with, then of course Itachi is going to go faster with Susanoo. It's Susanoo. My entire point is that it's implied that Itachi protected Sasuke unnecessarily, not that he was fast enough and Sasuke wasn't. 

With Naruto, he activated the no-seal Shunshin and it speed up his movement to crazy levels. Naruto's reflexes are comparable to Minato's, but his flicker speed is far better.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 17, 2015)

Why people are underestiating Minato's Shunshin while he doesn't show any limit and was praised by Obito and was said to deserve his title of "the yellow flash" .


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2015)

I don't underestimate his Shunshin. I already said he wins hype.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 17, 2015)

No you said that his Shunshin is slower than KCM Naruto while you have no proof .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If something is an inch away from your body when you dodge it, you are probably faster than it lol. The interception feat thing we agree on, which is why I said what I said before: Pretend Minato has no feats and just say he wins hype. If we use his actual feats, he is Jesusly.


Not necessarily, no.



> If Sasuke was never trying to react with Susanoo to begin with, then of course Itachi is going to go faster with Susanoo. It's Susanoo. My entire point is that it's implied that Itachi protected Sasuke unnecessarily, not that he was fast enough and Sasuke wasn't.


Unnecessary or not, Itachi reacted and acted faster. 
The only thing that'd make his feat redundant is if Sasuke didn't react on purpose, which is backed up by nothing.


> With Naruto, he activated the no-seal Shunshin and it speed up his movement to crazy levels. Naruto's reflexes are comparable to Minato's, but his flicker speed is far better.



Shunshin is basically using chakra to accelerate movement. 
Reaction-wise I see no difference between Naruto and Minato(the guy I quoted thinks Minato has much better reaction speed), but Naruto actually had to react and act with body movement and get his body out of the way physicaly. Minato thought about activating the jutsu and he was already somewhere else. 

I think you and I agree on this.



hbcaptain said:


> No you said that his Shunshin is slower than KCM Naruto while you have no proof .



You can't ask him to prove a negative. 
Absence of evidence isn't evidence.
Welcome to debating 101.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 17, 2015)

Euh no , Obito said "fast , you deserve to your title of yellow flash" , that's an enough proof that his Shunshin is incredibly fast and a part of his reputation all over the ninja world . The godlike speed reputation is also due to that . Plus in feat , he is much faster than SM Naruto , he is faster than Tobirama himself faster than Madara himself can blitz SM Naruto , etc .

Relying on hype and feats we ca neasily say that Minato's Shunshin is faster than KCM Naruto .


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## KeyofMiracles (Nov 17, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> No no, i meant this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Like I said, the distance is shorter for Minato, so how in the world are you even comparing these two? The only way you can compare them and come out with the answer that Naruto's reactions are superior is if they were equal in distance, but Minato was closer to Ay than Naruto was yet he still reacted with Ay's fist only a few cm closer to his face than Naruto's was. 

So Minato's feat is equal or superior. Naruto being able to evade is irrelevant to a reflex comparison. That's a physical speed comparison. Minato physically and mentally reacted to Ay from a closer distance than Naruto did. So Minato>KCM Naruto.




> ok
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No.

1. As the feat above shows, Minato>=KCM Naruto. Equal is the lowest it ever goes. Though Minato's feat, in reality, is superior thus it's Minato>KCM Naruto in reaction speed.

2. Itachi being equivalent to KCM Naruto in reaction is based on him keeping up with EMS Sasuke at the Kabuto fight, who is on par with KCM Naruto. Movement speed and reaction have nothing to do with anything here, and KCM Naruto's reaction speed doesn't surpass Ay's. So Itachi equaling Naruto doesn't make him faster than Ay in any sense.

EMS Sasuke (matured Sharingan)>V2 Ay>KCM Minato>v1 Ay>Base Ay=Base Minato (as per Manga statements)>KCM Naruto>=Itachi in terms of reflexes. Physical reaction speed is a completely different matter. The gap between them all isn't that large aside from EMS Sasuke and Ay due to precognition.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Euh no , Obito said "fast , you deserve to your title of yellow flash" , that's an enough proof that his Shunshin is incredibly fast and a part of his reputation all over the ninja world . The godlike speed reputation is also due to that . Plus in feat , he is much faster than SM Naruto , he is faster than Tobirama himself faster than Madara himself can blitz SM Naruto , etc .
> 
> Relying on hype and feats we ca neasily say that Minato's Shunshin is faster than KCM Naruto .



Minato has no feats that put his shunshin anywhere near KCM Naruto level.
He has no hype regarding his shunshin speed either, other than it being fast, which is vague and doesn't tell us anything about how fast it actually is.

You are just being delusional.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 17, 2015)

Minato' Shunshin is far suerior to SM Naruto , as we have seen against Kyubi , both of them fought the same oppenent , or I would say SM Naruto fought an even weaker oppenent , as a result , Minato could evade with his Shunshin far ways and Naruto can't .

C/C : Minato>>SM Naruto , that put him above KCM Naruto .

Madara's Shunshin<Tobirama's<Minato's , yet Madara blitzed SM Naruto , KCM Naruto can't do that .

C/C : Minato>KCM Naruto .

Minato's Shunsin is so fast that Obito can't even make a hand move while KCM Naruto couldn't .

C/C : Minato's Shunshin>KCM Naruto's

The feats aren't lucking here . Same goes for hype .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2015)

SM Naruto never used shunshin on Kyuubi. Not that he has any decent hype or feats regarding his shunshin. Being faster than SM Naruto would absoltely mean nothing as his hype comes from his reflexes, not movement speed.

Minato never fought Kyuubi directly.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 17, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> You have absolutely no proof of the bolded. Minato has shown superior reflexes for reasons stated again and again.



Minato doesn't have any high-end reflex feats where he didn't use Hiraishin to bail himself out at the last second, as he did against A. This is not a physical reaction, but a seal-less jutsu reaction.

Kakashi and other ninja have shown, time and time again, that it's faster to use seal-less ninjutsu for defense than physically moving. Kakashi had to do so against the Susano'o arrow. So would Minato.

Minato has plenty of lower-level reaction feats to suggest he's sub-v2 though, like v2 A touching his nose before he reacted, having his hand caught by 14-year-old Obito, being punched by Naruto, etc.

v2 is a level of speed that A retains very briefly, for a matter of seconds, and has a huge price of chakra. Only A, Naruto, and Jubi Jins have shown that level of shunshin because of the chakra cost. 

So Minato is not permanent v2, sorry.​


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2015)

Strat, Hiraishin is a reflex. There are three kinds of speed (imo), and all of Minato's feats in areas outside of Hiraishin are interception feats and unquantifiable. I don't really think anyone thinks Minato's Taijutsu speed is v2 level. 

He only reaches such speeds with his v3 Kunai. His Rasengan thrust has a possible v4 feat. KCM Minato's Rasengan should thus be v5, putting KCM Minato's Shunshin around v7.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 17, 2015)

Hiraishin is a reflex in the sense that Kakashi's last second Kamui against Susano'o arrows are a reflex. People mistake Hiraishin for physical movement. It's not. It's a jutsu, able to be used as a reflex much faster than physical movement. Seal-less jutsu have consistently been used in the manga when attacks are too fast to physically evade. Kakashi and Danzo each used one against the Susano'o arrow, noting that it was too fast to physically evade.

I maintain the opinion that neither Minato nor Kakashi can physically evade the Susano'o arrow, particularly because Sharingan reflexes are better purely because they see attacks literally before they happen. But they all need to rely on their jutsu for defense. And I believe A can only do so if he's already spent the moment to charge up his shunshin when the arrow has launched, as it was timed against Amaterasu. Same goes for him evading that v2 Susano'o fist.​


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> Hiraishin is a reflex in the sense that Kakashi's last second Kamui against Susano'o arrows are a reflex. People mistake Hiraishin for physical movement. It's not. It's a jutsu, able to be used as a reflex much faster than physical movement.



I'm aware. I made an entire thread dedicated to speed types. 

Shunshin is _also_ a reflex in that sense, though. When a ninja "turns on" Shunshin, they start Flash-Stepping, which is how Naruto evaded A. Minato doesn't have the Shunshin speed to do the same, but he doesn't need Shunshin when he's got Hiraishin.  



Sadgoob said:


> I maintain the opinion that neither Minato nor Kakashi can physically evade the Susano'o arrow, particularly because Sharingan reflexes are better purely because they see attacks literally before they happen.



Kakashi couldn't. His flicker apparently wasn't fast enough. V1 A should be fine with just his base speed (I have been calling this "Fast Taijutsu"). He could side-step it like Kabuto did, or like his father did Rasenshuriken. Shunshin is overkill. Minato _might_ be able to do it with all three speed types. 

I don't get the arrow hype. Kakashi couldn't evade it, but I don't consider him a premier speedster lol. His Shunshin feats don't even match SoPII Sasuke's. The arrow's other feats include being dodged by Kabuto and keeping pace with Tailed Beast Bomb and FRS throughout the final arcs. 

Some people think it's v2 level, which is ludicrous.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 17, 2015)

The Rasenshuriken is _nowhere_ near the Susano'o arrow in speed. An exhausted Deva Path was hopping over the Rasenshuriken no problem, not even needing ST as he did for many attacks prior.

I'm not understanding how you think the arrow _isn't_ v2 level if Kakashi literally couldn't move a few inches to the side when he saw it coming from 20 meters away. 

Kakashi being someone who, conservatively speaking, can comfortably out-move the Sasuke that fought A in CQC by virtue of similar speed, precognition, and significantly superior taijutsu. 

So, to me, you saying that v1 can side-step the arrow is just hugely absurd. You're underestimating Sage Kabuto. He would destroy v1 A faster than the watered down Sage Naruto clone destroyed AAA.​


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2015)

Well one, the arrow didn't Flash-Step out of Kakashi's (or Danzō's) vision like A did to Sasuke. Two, Sage Kabuto side-stepped it while waving a finger. Three, Danzō grew a tree out of his arm in time to redirect it. Four, it was about even with TBB & FRS in the War Arc....

I'm not sure exactly what puts it on v2 levels. V2 A wouldn't meet any resistance tearing Kakashi in half.



			
				Strat said:
			
		

> Kakashi being someone who, conservatively speaking, can comfortably out-move the Sasuke that fought A in CQC by virtue of similar speed, precognition, and significantly superior taijutsu.





No. Kakashi isn't close to Sasuke. Both his body reaction & Shunshin feats are god awful in comparison.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 17, 2015)

I agree. 

 Pain evaded Naruto's FRS point-blank while having to deal with Base Naruto's clones yet Precognition was shown to be very ineffective against Susano'o Arrow and required one of the fastest techniques in the manga to counter it which even then, was activated at the last minute.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 17, 2015)

IMO, you're fixation on flash-stepping out of vision confuses you. It's easier to do that than to blitz somebody in a straight-up fashion. That's the nature of kawarimi/feints versus a forward shunshin blitz.​


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## Rocky (Nov 17, 2015)

Not really. All a blitz is is when you attack during the flash-step. There's nothing harder about it. Feints take advantage of a distraction to swap out a clone. If you do it when the opponent is looking at you, they'll see you move lol.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 18, 2015)

I don't think the arrows are V2 level, but they should be alot faster than FRS, going by feats. 



Also, dodging attacks with a linear trajectory is alot easier than dodging attacks that aren't.

For example in the picture, imagine a bow aimed at a person. That person doesn't have to see and percieve the arrow to able to dodge it. Because the arrow has a linear trajectory, so the person can react to the release of the string and just move to the side, aim dodge it in a sense, and the arrow will miss.


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 18, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> Minato doesn't have any high-end reflex feats where he didn't use Hiraishin to bail himself out at the last second, as he did against A. This is not a physical reaction, but a seal-less jutsu reaction.
> 
> Kakashi and other ninja have shown, time and time again, that it's faster to use seal-less ninjutsu for defense than physically moving. Kakashi had to do so against the Susano'o arrow. So would Minato.
> 
> ...



1) I never stated Minato was permenant v2; it's a silly comment really. None of this has any bearing on whether or not Minato has better reflexes than Itachi, which is what I disputed.

2) Minato physically reacted to V2 Raikage by throwing his kunai when the Raikage's fist was literally inches from his face. That is a physical reaction without a doubt and puts him above any single feat of Itachi's.

3) Don't name Kirin as a significant, because I have a feeling you will. The 1/1000th statement really has no anchor by which we can compare it to. We can presume very fast, but Minato has an equally ridiculous feat in reacting to an expanding explosion.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 18, 2015)

Just as an information , one of JJ Madara's Jutsu moves at light speed according to the databook .


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 18, 2015)

Is there a new databook out?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 18, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Just as an information , one of JJ Madara's Jutsu moves at light speed according to the databook .



which one ?

Itachi's water fang drill also moves at light speed according to databook.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 18, 2015)

The fourth databook :


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## Sadgoob (Nov 18, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> 2) Minato physically reacted to V2 Raikage by throwing his kunai when the Raikage's fist was literally inches from his face. That is a physical reaction without a doubt and puts him above any single feat of Itachi's.



Itachi's hands move faster than other elite 3-tomoe users can track i.e. v2 speeds as well. He's also clone feinted those same people (Hebi Sasuke) with near-zero sight-blocking (just shuriken.)​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 18, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> The fourth databook :



JJ's madara's jutsu confirmed to be Itachi level




> Water release: Water Fang Bullet
> User: Uchiha Itachi
> 
> From the water, bullets at the speed of light--- Coming from a blind spot to bore into the enemy!!
> ...


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 19, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> Itachi's hands move faster than other elite 3-tomoe users can track i.e. v2 speeds as well. He's also clone feinted those same people (Hebi Sasuke) with near-zero sight-blocking (just shuriken.)​



Itachi's hands move faster than the Raikage?

Clone Fienting someone is a reflex?


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## Vice (Nov 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> JJ's madara's jutsu confirmed to be Itachi level



So this confirms that Kakashi's reflexes are faster than the speed of light?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 19, 2015)

Vice said:


> So this confirms that Kakashi's reflexes are faster than the speed of light?



Kakashi preempted it


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## Vice (Nov 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kakashi preempted it



Kinda like how Itachi preempted Kirin?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 19, 2015)

Vice said:


> Kinda like how Itachi preempted Kirin?



Itachi waited for lightning to strike, Kakashi just reacted to the bait shurikens. Itachi knew he had to warn Kakashi before hand otherwise he could never reacted to a jutsu moving at the speed of light


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## Vice (Nov 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi waited for lightning to strike, Kakashi just reacted to the bait shurikens. Itachi knew he had to warn Kakashi before hand otherwise he could never reacted to a jutsu moving at the speed of light



Itachi had like 20 minutes to summon Susanoo while Sasuke was giving his "this is the end"  speech and had the benefit of watching and reacting to Sasuke's arm moving down to strike. Also, not only did Kakashi react to the real attack, but he also reacted to the distraction as well? Dat Kakashi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 19, 2015)

Dat Kakashi indeed, with FTL reactions, he still can't see Itachi's handseals.


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## Vice (Nov 19, 2015)

Dat FTL skill at something that doesn't mean anything anymore.


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