# Hebi Sasuke vs Minato [Base speed]



## Itachі (Dec 18, 2015)

Inspired by our very own Grimmjowsensei.

Who's faster, Hebi Sasuke or Hiraishinless Minato?

Take into account Shunshin and CS as well if you want.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 18, 2015)

Obviously Minato , he is much faster than SM Naruto according to Kurama's feats .


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## Itachі (Dec 18, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Obviously Minato , he is much faster than SM Naruto according to Kurama's feats .



Was SM Naruto ever really considered a speedster like Sasuke though?


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## hbcaptain (Dec 18, 2015)

SM Naruto is at least at Sasuke's speed :

*Spoiler*: __ 








SM Naruto's Shunshin>>Shurado+launcher .

Sasuke isn't a speeder , he is just fast like Kakashi .


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## Mercurial (Dec 18, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> SM Naruto is at least at Sasuke's speed :
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Lol


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## Alex Payne (Dec 18, 2015)

CS Sasuke is more reactive than Minato when he can use his Sharingan to track targets. Minato's normal reflexes are better(i.e. when someone attacks from behind and our characters need to react). Not sure about Shunshin. Sharingan-aided shunshin with CS-boost is underrated around here imo. But Minato's shunshin is one of his main moves and he's got superior natural reflexes. Minato's feats are also kinda murky when just shunshin is concerned. Probably Minato but mainly due to hype/portrayal.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 18, 2015)

Sasuke has higher reflexes, but Minato has the higher Shunshin speed.

 Minato's speed doesn't stop Sasuke from slicing his head off.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 18, 2015)

@*Raikiri *:

What the hell half dead Zabuza and P2 Naruto are doing here ?

_________________________

And well , if you are talking reflexes :
-Minato can launch a Kunai and strike while Ei si V2 Shunning .
-MS Sasuke (MS anticiaption>3TS) can't move a muscle .

The conclusion is up to you .


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## ARGUS (Dec 18, 2015)

In terms of shunshin 

Minato > Tobirama > EMS Madara >> Itachi >> Hebi Sasuke 

Minato is tiers and tiers above Hebi sasuke in speed, obviously reactions are included 

Hebi sasuke almost got blitzed against Itachi. CS doesn't do jack shit to even cover half the gap. When Hebi sasuke reacts to V2 Ays top shunshin from under 20m physically and mentally. Then we can even begin to dream that he's close


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## Rocky (Dec 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> CS Sasuke is more reactive than Minato when he can use his Sharingan to track targets.



I don't think Minato would have lost sight of Raikage like Sasuke did, and that Sasuke had even better eyes that this Sasuke does.


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## Lord Aizen (Dec 18, 2015)

Minato should be way faster than sasukes. Hebi sasukes reflexes arent near minatos


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## Alex Payne (Dec 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't think Minato would have lost sight of Raikage like Sasuke did, and that Sasuke had even better eyes that this Sasuke does.


We never saw Raikage trying to shunshin behind Minato before attacking. And Sasuke that fought Raikage was _slower_ than Hebi Sasuke. MS was never stated to be or shown to be any better than 3-tomoe in terms of perception. While Cursed Seal is a solid boost all-around. Hell, even slower Sasuke(weakened from fighting Itachi) was praised by B for his speed.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 18, 2015)

What the hell are you saying , Raikage was in front of Sasuke , he simply got behind because his Shunshin is super fast and that Sasuke coudln't follow him physically .

That plus EMS>>MS , EMS Sasuke can follow Juubito with this . It's only natural that : EMS>MS>3TS .


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## ARGUS (Dec 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> We never saw Raikage trying to shunshin behind Minato before attacking.


Irrelevant because minatos feat trumps sasukes 

Not to mention that raikage moved right in front of sasuke but the latter was far too slow to even lay a sight on him. Which is what essentially caused him to get blitzed 




> And Sasuke that fought Raikage was _slower_ than Hebi Sasuke. *MS was never stated to be or shown to be any better than 3-tomoe in terms of perception. *


Wrong. 
The precognition of sharingan is dependent on the chakra potency of the eye 
MS chakra >>> 3T sharingan thus it's far better in tracking just how EMS is far better than MS 





> While Cursed Seal is a solid boost all-around. Hell, even slower Sasuke(weakened from fighting Itachi) was praised by B for his speed.


Sasuke might be physically slower than CS but his reactions from MS are far better than what a devolved senjutsu mode can offer


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## Kor (Dec 18, 2015)

Minato bamflashes Sasuke.


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## Ghoztly (Dec 18, 2015)

If the MS granted anything more than techniques they would have it activated 24/7, you're the wrong that's wrong. EMS is different where Madara/Sasuke are concerned. Other than that, it's a 3T with extra techniques.

Also Lol @ people thinking Minato's eyes are superior to a Sharingan, this forum sometimes I swear. 

He's no faster than Itachi/ Sasuke/ Kakashi etc. without Hiraishin 

People need to stop associating Hiraishin with Minato's base speed, they are entirely different.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 18, 2015)

Raikage's eyes+moves speed are better than MS Sasuke , why would Minato be slower lol . Plus as always Ghoztly is forgetting Minato's feats :



			
				my previous post said:
			
		

> And well , if you are talking reflexes :
> -Minato can launch a Kunai and strike while Ei si V2 Shunning .
> -MS Sasuke (MS anticiaption>3TS) can't move a muscle .
> 
> The conclusion is up to you .


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## Alex Payne (Dec 18, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> What the hell are you saying , Raikage was in front of Sasuke , he simply got behind because his Shunshin is super fast and that Sasuke coudln't follow him physically .


 Raikage _moved behind_ Sasuke before trying to attack him. He never did so vs Minato - he tried to smash his face via frontal assault. So we can't compare them directly. Plus Sasuke countered Elbow physically and reacted to from-behind shunshin with Kagutsuchi. So we clearly that he can hang with Raikage speed-wise - either with 3-tomoe when lower speed is used or with speed-of-thought Mangekyo techs when Raikage upped his game. 



hbcaptain said:


> That plus EMS>>MS , EMS Sasuke can follow Juubito with this . It's only natural that : EMS>MS>3TS .


Sasuke's EMS grants better prediction because it is Choku Tomoe Type. We never got any confirmation that his MS is the same. Nor did Sasuke actively use MS to track people after he got it. If MS was really better he would have used it when countering stuff like Elbow or V2 B's Lariat. But he had 3-tomoe on both times.


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## Alex Payne (Dec 18, 2015)

This is getting ridiculous. Alright. Give me scans with Mangekyo Sharingan being put above 3-tomoe in precognition/perception. Let's start with that.


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## Rocky (Dec 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> We never saw Raikage trying to shunshin behind Minato before attacking.



If only Raikage had tried that in their many battles, maybe he would've won. Yeah, no. You've got to be kidding me. 



How much you wanna bet that Kishimoto doesn't think Minato would have the same problem?



Alex Payne said:


> And Sasuke that fought Raikage was _slower_ than Hebi Sasuke. MS was never stated to be or shown to be any better than 3-tomoe in terms of perception.



That would make MS the odd one out, as every other stage of the Sharingan comes with a perception boost. It's possible, but weird. Also, IIRC there was some stuff in the Danzō fight that pointed the other way.


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## Rocky (Dec 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> While Cursed Seal is a solid boost all-around.


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## FlamingRain (Dec 18, 2015)

You wouldn't just replace "shield" with "teleportation", Rocky?



Also what chapter were those last two panels from?


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## Amol (Dec 18, 2015)

If there is one thing that one shouldn't doubt about Minato is the speed unless the guy happened to be a God tier.
Speed is his bread and butter after all.
Pretty sure Minato even without Hiraishin is good deal faster than Sasuke.
Giving Hiraishin to say Asuma is not gonna help him in avoiding full speed V2 Raikage. Minato's normal speed matters too.
P.S.: SM Naruto is faster than Sasuke too.


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## Rocky (Dec 18, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> You wouldn't just replace "shield" with "teleportation", Rocky?



No, because I don't think Minato was ever portrayed to have a problem "keeping up" with Raikage's speed. Quite the contrary, imo. 



FlamingRain said:


> Also what chapter were those last two panels from?



Ch. 460, right before Raikage crashes the party.


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## FlamingRain (Dec 18, 2015)

Huh.

I thought you were always implying the opposite when arguing for Raikage.

Though I could tell some of it was intentional.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 18, 2015)

I'd say base Sasuke is slower than Minato, but with sharingan effectively fast enough to keep up, just like how he was able to keep up with V1 A. With CS he should be just as fast or above.


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## Rocky (Dec 18, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I thought you were always implying the opposite when arguing for Raikage.



I can't, because if Minato had trouble keeping up with Raikage's speed, all somebody would have to do is go get the scan of Raikage saying he's slower than Minato, lol.

So I don't think Minato would lose track of Raikage like Sasuke did. My arguments for v2 Raikage typically consist of "you lose if you don't have Minato-reflexes," but Minato has Minato-reflexes. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> With CS he should be just as fast or above.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 18, 2015)

I don't see the correlation between eye power and speed.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 18, 2015)

eye power increase => eye's anticipation increase .


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 18, 2015)

Rocky;54907928 [IMG said:
			
		

> http://i.imgur.com/Enb6ldJ.png[/IMG]



 Are you implying that Taka Sasuke >> CS2 Sasuke?


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## Rocky (Dec 18, 2015)

[1][2 & 3][4][5 & 6][7]

Need I keep going, Grimmjow?



NarutoX28 said:


> Are you implying that Taka Sasuke > CS2 Sasuke?



If Taka Sasuke is Summit Sasuke, then yeah. At least, I'm pretty sure that that's why this was inlcuded:


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> [1][2 & 3][4][5 & 6][7]
> 
> Need I keep going, Grimmjow?


Please do, I don't see the connection.


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## Rocky (Dec 18, 2015)

Stronger eyes -> better perception -> better reflexes. Shunshin speed should be relatively the same, if that's what you're speaking of. Though stronger chakra to use Shunshin with could have raised that too, so I don't know.


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## Itachі (Dec 18, 2015)




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## Matty (Dec 18, 2015)

Why is this a discussion? The fastest man in the manga compared to Hebi Sasuke?


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## Itachі (Dec 18, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Why is this a discussion? The fastest man in the manga compared to Hebi Sasuke?


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## Dr. White (Dec 18, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> In terms of shunshin
> 
> Minato > Tobirama > EMS Madara >> Itachi >> Hebi Sasuke
> 
> ...



No. More like Minato > Tobirama > Madara > Itachi > Sasuke. The gaps are not that huge and in most cases it's marginal when dealing with speedsters. Base Bee physically meet and Lariat a charging V2 Ei, and intercept V1 Ei, he also had the movement speed with Bjuu tentacle to intercept Minato straight out of FTG.

Itachi outdid him in CqC in regards to speed. Minato is not >>> Base Bee as your list would suggest.

Minato reacting to Ei has literally nothing to do with shushin which is solely about chakra control/reserves.

On topic Minato is obviously faster with shushin.


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## Dr. White (Dec 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


>



How does this counter CS boosting stats? she was talking about his MS chakra being of more quality than CS2 chakra, and with more evil intent to it. MS chakra does nothing to boost physicality or chakra control.


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## Rocky (Dec 18, 2015)

Characters aren't always moving at their top Shunshin speeds lol. Itachi never outdid B in close quarters anyway. He got behind him after Nagato summoned two big ass animals and blocked B's vision, but when B turned around, Itachi didn't outdo shit in close quarters.

Karin was talking about his chakra being thicker and colder while he was sword fighting Samurai with his three-tome activated. I should be asking you how that isn't an indication of some kind of physical difference.


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## Matty (Dec 18, 2015)

Itachі said:


>



Are you that familiar already with my distaste for the hebiest of sauces


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 18, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Why is this a discussion? The fastest man in the manga compared to Hebi Sasuke?





 Minato w/o Hiraishin isn't the fastest man in the manga.


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## Matty (Dec 18, 2015)

They don't call him the yellow turtle now do they?


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## Kyu (Dec 18, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Minato w/o Hiraishin isn't the fastest man in the manga.



He's the fastest human without stat boosters.


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## Dr. White (Dec 18, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> They don't call him the yellow turtle now do they?



His moniker is a direct name from his use of FTG. Although he still is the fastest person with base shushin given Tobirama praise, and Tobirama's own hype.

The fact that FTG and shushin get mixed up like all the time in translations doesn't help either.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 18, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> They don't call him the yellow turtle now do they?



 I knew this explanation would come in handy. I explained this to someone on NarutoBase why Minato's Hiraishin is the main reason why he's titled, "The Yellow Flash". 



			
				NarutoX28 said:
			
		

> 7
> 7
> 
> C'mon. Minato earned the title due to his Hiraishin and the 2nd scan makes that very clear. Even Minato's Shunshin on that Jonin wasn't enough to confirm he was the Yellow Flash until he warped behind him.
> ...


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## Dr. White (Dec 18, 2015)

7

This is that shit I'm talking about. Clearly referring to FTG yet even the translator doesn't pick it up, this makes alot of his shushin hype dubious.


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## KeyofMiracles (Dec 18, 2015)

Minato is so much faster than him that it isn't even funny. The gap is the smallest with his Shunshin, but his physical and mental reaction speed blows MS Sasuke's out of the water, and MS Sasuke is faster than Peak Hebi Sasuke.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 18, 2015)

Kyu said:


> He's the fastest human without stat boosters.



 That would be Hashirama.


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## Kyu (Dec 18, 2015)

Homie outpacing Hokage 1-3 to the battlefield says differently.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 18, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Blondie beating Hokage 1-3 to the battlefield says otherwise.



Hashirama wasn't using Shunshin.


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## Kyu (Dec 18, 2015)

You're not funny.


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 18, 2015)

ITT there's still at least one person who think Itachi blitzed Killer Bee

l o fucking l


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## Dr. White (Dec 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> No, it isn't. Characters aren't always moving at top speeds.


Yes it is. We have no way of diviving and quantifying each sinle shushin use. If a character is using shushin to move as oppossed to body speed then it is quite obvious they are trying to go their fastest. Lest I can claim Hebi Sauce could have actually blitzed Diedara because he just wasn't using his best shushin, because "people don't use top speed all the time".

If this is in regards to the Ei vs Bee thing it really doesn't matter anyway as Raikage was 100% serious, and being in V2 automatically makes him extremely fast.




> I suppose Nagato's summons are transparent.


Remind me again how that matters, when Itachi got behind Bee? It's not like Itachi blitzed at Bee comparable to this, he literally was 10m away, there was clear LOS between the summons, smoke, and Bee/Naruto, and Itachi moved all that distance + some to get Bee's backside. The summons literally did nothing but add stimuli for Bee to look at. That's literally the only way they impeded him.




> That doesn't even make sense. Hiraishin is instantaneous, so it isn't a matter of visual perception. Minato said "I won't fail" when he got there, giving B plenty of time to react by turning a sword around. [1] Contrast that with Obito, who basically had a Rasengan in his back as soon as Minato jumped.


> Implying perception is only limited to visuals... He noted how FTG works, came up with a reasonable plan to pre empt Minato's next move, and to Minato's surprise successfully anticipated and countered it. so why are you acting like a summoning, is that much of a gamebreaking strategy that allowed for Itachi to accomplish his feat?




> B just _might_ have been distracted by the giant fucking summons.


So seasoned vet Bee just forgets about Itachi?

So seasoned Vet Bee can't react to something from 10m away, straight in front of him, because some summons were brought into the fight? Bee's reactions to track a humanoid running past him (from right in front of him) just shut down because a summon was involved.

okay 




> What are you talking about? This? [2]
> 
> Lol, that's a clone feint. Notice the clone going poof in the bottom right panel.


Ok, wow I never noticed that. Still impressive that Itachi was able to do such though (just not as impressive). He was still obviously far away from them, and came from the air. Bee has reacted to wayyyyyyy more dangerous ambushes, ala his Taka Feats.



> Maybe Naruto knew that Itachi was there because he's a sensor, while Killer B is not.


Yeah know that I know it's a clone feint, it makes more sense. Speaks more to Itachi's jutsu execution speed/ambush speed more than his shushin.

Itachi dancing through KCM Naruto and Bee at close range, and avoiding the latters close range blindside strike is still an amazing feat though.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 18, 2015)

Kyu said:


> You're not funny.



 Funny that you think Hashirama is as fast as Hiruzen.

 Please, tell me more.


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## Rocky (Dec 18, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Lest I can claim Hebi Sauce could have actually blitzed Diedara because he just wasn't using his best shushin, because "people don't use top speed all the time".



You could make that argument, _as long as you have reason to believe that Sasuke wasn't moving at his top speed at the time._



Dr. White said:


> If this is in regards to the Ei vs Bee thing it really doesn't matter anyway as Raikage was 100% serious, and being in V2 automatically makes him extremely fast.



Raikage was 100% seriously trying to compare his Lariat to Killer B's. 

If he was trying to blitz B, he would have blitzed B. It doesn't make any sense for him to try and blitz B when he said "let's see who's Lariat is stronger" lol. 



Dr. White said:


> The summons literally did nothing but add stimuli for Bee to look at. That's literally the only way they impeded him.



Well yeah, which has led to like thousands of "blitzes" in the manga. This concept is exemplified by Tobirama v. _Jesusfuckingbito:_



If you want an example that doesn't involve teleportation, here. [1]



Dr. White said:


> He noted how FTG works, came up with a reasonable plan to pre empt Minato's next move, and to Minato's surprise successfully anticipated and countered it.



It's possible that he saw the symbol on his tail, then pointed the sword behind his back as soon as he saw Raikage run at Minato. It's also possible that he pointed it behind his back when Minato said "I will not fail" and stood there. Either way, it's a good feat of quick thinking from B and nothing more. Minato's struck faster people with Hiraishin than base B. 



Dr. White said:


> Itachi dancing through KCM Naruto and Bee at close range, and avoiding the latters close range blindside strike is still an amazing feat though.



Well, I'm not exactly contesting that Itachi is fast, so...


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## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Homie outpacing Hokage 1-3 to the battlefield says differently.



That was a display of Minato's Shunshin mastery, that's all. His Shunshin is faster than that of any other Hokage, except Rikudou Naruto's Shunshin.

But first - there was no sense for other Hokage to waste their chakra on a super-shunshin, because they'll need it later. Minato's mastery of that technique was better, so he kinda could. 

Second - that's just a Shunshin. Minato's movement speed feats are not very impressive. Tobirama's movement speed was, in fact, faster than that of KCM Minato. Kurama Chakra Mode boosts speed and reflexes, you know. 



> That would be Hashirama.



No - that would be Tobirama.


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## Dr. White (Dec 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Raikage was 100% seriously trying to compare his Lariat to Killer B's.
> 
> If he was trying to blitz B, he would have blitzed B. It doesn't make any sense for him to try and blitz B when he said "let's see who's Lariat is stronger" lol.


Speed is a main component of Raikage's V2 and the power behind his attacks. Lariat is a speed attack ala Bee going into V1 and mega jumping to lariat Sauce. It makes no sense for him not to be moving extremely fast, especially when his body is being amped by lightning. Kakashi simply channeling lightning in his hand made him super fast as well as sasuke. I'm not saying he can react to V2 Shushin, but he can react to V2 movement speed, specifically a speed move used in V2.




> Well yeah, which has led to like thousands of "blitzes" in the manga. This concept is exemplified by Tobirama v. _Jesusfuckingbito:_


Obito was fighting the whole Shinobi Alliance, and all the Hokages. Tobirama also didn't blitz via travelling at his target. 



> If you want an example that doesn't involve teleportation, here. [1]


False equivocation.
A.) The crows main purpose is to distract, block LOS, and set up jutsu. They could even distract EMS Sauce. They literally flock towards your position and peck at you.
B.) Itachi was 5 feet from Sasuke, not 10 meters away in an open field. 

Had Bee been closer, had Bee been engulfed by the smoke, had the distance not been so great, and had Itachi not rounded Bee, I could see some of your points. 




> It's possible that he saw the symbol on his tail, then pointed the sword behind his back as soon as he saw Raikage run at Minato. It's also possible that he pointed it behind his back when Minato said "I will not fail" and stood there. Either way, it's a good feat of quick thinking from B and nothing more. Minato's struck faster people with Hiraishin than base B.


My point is not about his speed in the situation. I'm saying Bee was perceptive enough to counter an ambush from Minato (yes I know maybe Minato could have killed him, not my point.) the notion that two summons being summonned would impede Bee's reactions enough that Itachi could round him at 10m and get his backside is type ridiculous.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Stronger eyes -> better perception -> better reflexes. Shunshin speed should be relatively the same, if that's what you're speaking of. Though stronger chakra to use Shunshin with could have raised that too, so I don't know.



I thought by "more powerful eyes", he was referring to this :  1



Unless Sasuke grew a 4th tomoe,  Karin and Tobirama's remarks had nothing to do with speed.




Itachі said:


>


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 18, 2015)

*Perception/Reaction/Reflexes*: 

This is Minato hands down, it cannot be debated. He reacted to truthseekers multiple times with movement [1] [2] & FTG [1] [2], reacted to grab Kamui and escaped it without knowledge on it [1], reacted to V2 Ei from 5m without in depth knowledge on his speed and escaped with a brushed nose, and reacted to him again from 5m with his back turned and wasn't touched.

Hebi Sasuke has reacted to no one notable. His feats are simply not there. He fought a long range bomber with no notable speed and a terminally ill faking and jobbing nearly blind MS Itachi who's intention was to suicide. 

MS Sasuke was equaled by Sharingan-less Danzo in movement speed most of the battle, couldn't even perceive Ei most of the time at the kage summit, especially when he grabbed his body, picked him up and power bombed him without any physical reaction. Killer Bee stabbed him six times in a single burst of movement, Sasuke could not react. In 3 on 1, MS Sasuke, CS1 Jugo & Suigetsu could not adequately pressure Killer Bee and had to trap his arm to taser chidori him. 

As far as I'm concerned Sasuke doesn't get in the same conversation of perception/reactions/reflexes with someone like Minato until he hit EMS level, when he began to show some pretty impressive feats against Jubito, albeit still inferior to Minato's physical and obvious FTG reactions. 

If we're talking Base Hebi Sasuke (No Sharingan, no CS1-CS2), he's clearly significantly inferior. 

*Movement speed*:

Shunshin is up in the air with Minato. Whether you think he FTG'd across Konoha or literally shunshin'd across it to land Gamabunta on Kurama's head, whether you think he FTG'd to Kushina then FTG'd out, or shunshin'd in and shunshin'd out, we don't know enough to adequately gauge Minato's shunshin speed.

As it pertains to his fight against Obito, we also don't know how fast Obito's shunshin speed was at 13, so we can't really use that as a means to showcase Minato's physical movement speed being on par with the MS Obito we knew in Part 2, who was 29 at that point. 

Personally, I believe Minato's shunshin was on par with someone like SM Naruto or SM Jiraiya. That's slightly above Hebi Sasuke's. Because SM Naruto & SM Jiraiya would be able to hang with Base Killer Bee in speed, someone *MS* Sasuke, Suigetsu & CS1 Jugo altogether were having trouble landing an attack on. 

It's implied Minato is very fast outside of FTG given Tobirama's hype of his shunshin being greater than his, a comment he wouldn't have made unless Tobirama's shunshin was notably fast itself. If it were only above average, there'd be no point in Tobirama randomly saying "Yo dude, I'm impressed you have a better than above average shunshin" in the middle of a war situation. It's clear the author wanted to imply that Minato was very fast without FTG.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2015)

> reacted to V2 Ei from 5m without in depth knowledge on his speed and escaped with a brushed nose, and reacted to him again from 5m with his back turned and wasn't touched.



I dont remember Minato having a brushed nose. 

And we dont know if Ei's top speed at that moment was at the same level as that of Raikage Ei. 



> Shunshin is up in the air with Minato. Whether you think he FTG'd across Konoha or literally shunshin'd across it to land Gamabunta on his head, whether you think he FTG'd to Kushina then FTG'd out, or shunshin'd in and shunshin'd out, we don't know enough to adequately gauge Minato's shunshin speed.



A shadow clone of Tobirama Shunshin'ed to exploding Gudoudama faster than KCM Minato's hand could touch it (Tobirama's Shunshin speed >>> KCM Minato's movement speed). And we know that Tobirama's Shunshin is not as good as Minato's. 

That's enough to gauge Minato's Shunshin speed.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 18, 2015)

Ei was twenty something at that point, there's nothing suggesting he wasn't at top speed at that age. Minato was at top speed in his very early twenties (in the war that he owned armies and wasn't Kage yet), he later died at 24 as Hokage. 

Excluding the feats against Ei, who had no reason not to go V2 against a guy who had flee on sight orders because of his widely known incontestable speed, he still has enough to blow Sasuke out of the water with the truthseekers & Kamui reaction. 

Well that's one wrench in the system with Minato. Every character has high-end and low-end feats, losing to Tobirama's clone is a low-end feat for him. 

The author wasn't going to leave Tobirama out of the fight though, so he had to appear at some point, that was a good time for him to appear in the fight again.


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## Kyu (Dec 18, 2015)

> Funny that you think Hashirama is as fast as Hiruzen.
> 
> Please, tell me more.



Minato flickering past the others is what's highlighted, hence Tobirama's statement & Hiruzen's praise on the panel where they arrived. 

Inconsequential bullshit strictly between characters A & B has no bearing on _valid_ hype from C -> D nor does it discredit D's feat in anyway whatsoever.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 18, 2015)

> Ei was twenty something at that point, there's nothing suggesting he wasn't at top speed at that age. Minato was at top speed in his very early twenties (in the war that he owned armies and wasn't Kage yet), he died at 24.



Maybe Minato didnt reach his full potential, maybe Minato did.

Maybe Ei reached his pinnacle at the moment of his first fight with Minato, maybe he didnt... Young Bee could react to young Ei's top speed with no problem, preventing Minato from finishing his strike. 



> Well that's one wrench in the system with Minato. Every character has high-end and low-end feats, losing to Tobirama's clone is a low-end feat for him.



The low-end/high-end feat system is a nonsensical wrench, in my opinion.

Minato has great Shunshin speed and great reflexes, but his movement speed is not all that great. There is nothing wrong with Tobirama's clone having faster Shunshin than KCM Minato's movement speed. Minato had faster Shunshin, but his own movement speed was inferior to Tobirama's movement speed *and* Tobirama's Shunshin speed. That makes sense. 

However, Tobirama's clone feat was very impressive. And Minato's Shunshin was even faster than that of Tobirama. 

I highly doubt that there is something in Hebi Sasuke's arsenal with which he will be able to hit Minato. Kirin is a non factor, obviously.


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## Dr. White (Dec 18, 2015)

Hashi is easily scaled to this...


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 18, 2015)

Gudoudama blitzing Obito's Kamui despite Juubidara failing to tag Obito before Obito could initiate Kamui here:

 scaled to this...

Makes absolutely no sense. 

 Is Juubidara so slow that he can't throw a Kunai as fast as Lee?



 Using Minato's feats with Gudoudama doesn't mean shit.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 18, 2015)

It's not just the fact it nearly caught a dude who needed double Kamui from 70m to get away from it, it's the fact that Judara opted to use the attack from 70m in hopes to keep Obito from going to the other dimension, and foiling his plans indefinitely. 

So you have the actual measurable feat of it being fast as shit (nearly hitting dude from 70m while being double Kamui'd), and the fast as shit genius opting to choose to use the attack to kill two people that can warp themselves into another dimension in the blink of an eye, which directly implies the attack is fast. 

We can hang our hats on getting out of Kamui though. Obito's grab Kamui is fast as shit, he reacted while he was being warped in. 

I won't even bring up him outspeeding Kamui against Judara either, that would be too much of a blow out. 

You can hate all day, you won't win with any argument that even remotely suggests Minato isn't faster than fast.

No-sharingan, no-CS Base Hebi Sasuke literally has no reaction/perception/reflex feats, _at all_. The feats he has with Sharingan aren't on Minato's level. Even MS Sasuke isn't on his level reaction/perception/reflex wise with Sharingan activated.


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## ARGUS (Dec 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> No. More like Minato > Tobirama > Madara > Itachi > Sasuke. The gaps are not that huge and in most cases it's marginal when dealing with speedsters.


No they are exactly this huge 
 -- When Itachi begins to show speeds even half way enough to almost blitz SM Naruto then we can talk about their shunshin being close 

 -- When minato arrived in the battlefield and spread his markings as well as teleported the juubidama before the other homages could arrive then we can talk 

 -- When we have seen Hebi sasuke get lol blitzed by sick Itachi then there is no fkn way the gap between them isn't too much.




> Base Bee physically meet and Lariat a charging V2 Ei, and intercept V1 Ei, he also had the movement speed with Bjuu tentacle to intercept Minato straight out of FTG.


Doesn't justify Hebi sasukes feats in any way whatsoever 



> Itachi outdid him in CqC in regards to speed. Minato is not >>> Base Bee as your list would suggest.



Only proved why Itachi is soo much better than sasuke 
CQC skill isn't just based on shunshin speed. It also has skill, strength. Reflexes and striking speed 
So No, 
Either way. Minatos shunshin speed is still comfortably above bees 



> Minato reacting to Ei has literally nothing to do with shushin which is solely about chakra control/reserves.


Never said it has to do with shunshin. 
Read the whole thing and then you'll actually know. Because it was about his reactions and reflexes being above sasukes


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## hbcaptain (Dec 19, 2015)

ARGUS said:
			
		

> -- When we have seen Hebi sasuke get lol blitzed by sick Itachi then there is no fkn way the gap between them isn't too much.


Since when sick Itachi blitzed Hebi Sasuke using speed .


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 19, 2015)

DaVizWiz, do you also think that Konan's projectiles are God-Tier based on the fact that Obito was forced to phase through all of them?


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 19, 2015)

He wasn't forced, he chose to. 

Could've used Bakufu Ranbu to vaporize her the moment she refused to hand over Nagato.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 19, 2015)

That's irrelevant.

 The fact that he couldn't warp away from it suggests that Konan's projectiles are God-tier.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 19, 2015)

No , Konan feats are nothing like that , she is made of explosive tags , she will explode the moment Obito touch her , same goes for Torune he is made of poison-insect , f Obito touch him , he will be infected , there is no speed here .


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 19, 2015)

What are you referring to exactly, [This] where Obito states he initially tried to absorb the paper, until he  [realized] that there was explosives attaching to him from behind then switched to intangibility, and was surrounded by paper from that point forward?


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## Rocky (Dec 19, 2015)

That translation is horrendous. Viz:


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 19, 2015)

Whats cooler about that is, Obito's warp and Kakashi's warp are the exact same thing and they have the same speed. As their warp speed doubled when they used it simultaneously.

So much for Kamui GG. Kakashi isn't going to warp anyone before they can move out of it.


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## Sorin (Dec 19, 2015)

3 kages arrived after Minato made 4/5 moves saving the alliance and surrounding the juubi(which is fuckin' massive) with 3 kunais. Hebi sasuke in CS was tagged by deidara's bombs.  

What the actual fuck with these comparisons?

Edit: smdh people actually debate this.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 19, 2015)

Hot damn, that's literally the exact opposite translation then what I had 

Horrendous indeed


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## Sorin (Dec 19, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> His moniker is a direct name from his use of FTG. Although he still is the fastest person with base shushin given Tobirama praise, and Tobirama's own hype.
> 
> The fact that FTG and shushin get mixed up like all the time in translations doesn't help either.



Link removed
Link removed

Straight up shunshin. His moniker is due to both hiraishin and shunshin. Arguing otherwise is denying manga evidence. That simple.


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## Amol (Dec 19, 2015)

It is just usual Sasuke wank or perhap Hebi Sasuke wank to be specific.
People perhaps just likes to argue against obvious even if it doesn't make lick of sense.
Hebi's best feat of speed is failing to blitz Deidara(successful blitz means landing an attack). Deidara is really not  he is some speedster or even a physical fighter.
So yeah.
While Minato's speed feats are incredible in comparison.
As I said previously, if there is one thing you don't doubt about Minato , it is Speed unless you happened to be a God tier.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2015)

Maybe low-end/high-end feat system is not as bad as i think, but anyway, Tobirama's clone feat doesnt contradict anything. It fits the canon. Just sayin'.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 19, 2015)

According to manga , Shunshin move>>>>Raw move , if you ask why I will give you tons of examples .


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## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> According to manga , Shunshin move>>>>Raw move , if you ask why I will give you tons of examples .



Give me tons of examples.

Tobirama's physical movement speed is a lot faster than Minato's, and his Shunshin speed is faster than Minato's movement speed, although Minato's Shunshin is faster than Tobirama's Shunshin because of greater mastery of that technique. There is nothing wrong with that, at all.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 19, 2015)

Ok yosh :


*Spoiler*: _P2 Lee's Shunshin+Konoha Senpo was faster than Kisame's move_ 








*Spoiler*: _Sai's Shunshin+move was faster than Sasuke's_ 








*Spoiler*: _Same goes for Yamato who was in the opposite side_ 








*Spoiler*: _Suigetsu Shunshin+move was faster than Shunshinless V1 Ei_ 








*Spoiler*: _Base Bee's Shunshin+move was faster than V1 Ei Shunshinless move_


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## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2015)

How does that prove that Tobirama's movement speed is slower than his speed while Shunshinning?

Is there any canon statement that Shunshin movement is always faster than physical movement? Shunshin, according to canon, is a technique which allows shinobi to amp movement speed from point A to point B. Just for you to know.

In those examples (Lee's are out of the conversation, because, as i remember, he couldnt use Shunshin), Shunshin speed and movement speed, combined were >>>>>> just a movement speed. However, that doesnt apply to Tobirama's case. That doesnt prove Tobirama's Shunshin speed is faster than his physical movement speed. Until you can prove otherwise, of course.

Tobirama's physical movement speed was faster than KCM Minato's pnysical movement speed. That's a fact. Tobirama's shadow clone's Shunshin was faster than KCM Minato's physical movement speed. That's a fact. It is in the manga and it contradicts nothing in it. Minato's Shunshin is faster than Tobirama's, but his physical movement speed <<<<<< Tobirama's physical movement speed and Shunshin.


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## Alex Payne (Dec 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If only Raikage had tried that in their many battles, maybe he would've won. Yeah, no. You've got to be kidding me.
> 
> 
> 
> How much you wanna bet that Kishimoto doesn't think Minato would have the same problem?


 You don't seem to get my point. You state that because Raikage was too fast for Sasuke to constantly keep his eyes on then he is slower than Minato. Because Raikage was unable to tag Minato. But you can't prove that Minato could constantly keep his eyes on Raikage based on that. Sasuke was able to react with Kagutsuchi activation right in that window between Raikage moving behind him and smacking his Susano. Who says Minato's situation was different? If Sasuke had Hiraishin instead of Kagutsuchi in that particular instance - he would have countered Raikage all the same. 





Rocky said:


> That would make MS the odd one out, as every other stage of the Sharingan comes with a perception boost. It's possible, but weird. Also, IIRC there was some stuff in the Danzō fight that pointed the other way.


 It doesn't make MS an odd one. There is 3-tomoe and a special variant called Choku Tomoe. Considering out limited knowledge - Choku Tomoe might be in both MS and EMS. Sasuke had his Choku in EMS(likely that thing in the center). It is possible that there were Uchihas with Choku MS. It is my speculation, sure, but if we consider that only Sasuke's EMS had this perception boost. And not a single instance of any other MS variants having better perception than 3-tomoe. Additionally, Taka's Sasuke best perception feats were done with 3-tomoe. So alright his MS is even better. Making Sasuke even faster/more reactive than he was vs Raikage.



Rocky said:


>


And what that has to do with CS speed boost? Stronger chakra allowed Sauce to use MS techs. Techs a good deal above stuff that Cursed Seal was granting. Or what you want to argue that chakra strength = speed? Part 1 KN1 ~ Part 1 CS2 Sasuke > Part 2 Base Sasuke? Am I doing it right? Do you want to argue that with just this "thicker chakra" Sauce could tank Deidara's C2 missiles just as good/better than with CS2?

Stronger Sharingan/Stronger Chakra = better/stronger techniques. Perception boost stops at 3-tomoe unless you win genetic lottery and get Choku Tomoe in your advanced Sharingan. Show me scans, Rocky. Scans that have any MS being specifically used for tracking or said to have better tracking/perception. When people talk Sharingan growth they talk about techniques. Only perception-related thing getting better is ability to counter genjutsu. 



Let me ask you this. Assume Sasuke that fought Raikage had Hiraishin instead of MS. Do you think Sauce would be unable to react with its activation in time?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 19, 2015)

Sasuke needed to keep his eyes on Raikage to use his Dojutsu, not react to him.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 19, 2015)

Starwandered said:
			
		

> How does that prove that Tobirama's movement speed is slower than his speed while Shunshinning?


I gave you Shunshin feats against non-Shunshin feats , that implies that Tobirama's clone catching GudDama before KCM Minato doesn't mean his moves are faster or even closer . If you decline this statement then Sai moves are faster than 3TS Sasuke's , same goes for Yamato , same goes for Weankened P1 Lee against Kimimaro , same goes for P2 Lee agaisnt Kismae , Suigetsu against V1 Ei , Base Bee against V1 Ei , etc ,etc .

In other hands , Tobirama said that Base Minato is pretty quick to act :


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 19, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> What are you referring to exactly, [This] where Obito states he initially tried to absorb the paper, until he  [realized] that there was explosives attaching to him from behind then switched to intangibility, and was surrounded by paper from that point forward?



 You're missing the point.

 The explosive tags latched on to him before Obito could even complete his absoption, much like he was unable to against the Gudodamas. What's even more significant is the fact that Obito initiated his warp before Konan even manipulated her explosive tags and Obito was still incapable of even absorbing the tags before they detonated.

 Thy were much much faster. I don't even need to take in account of the detonation. The fact that they reached him before he could absorb any of the tags suggests it's much faster.

 But even then, Rocky's Viz Scan confirms he was trying to warp. Wouldn't be surprised. It'd be stupid for Obito to try the same thing again when it failed previous.


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## Rocky (Dec 19, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> You don't seem to get my point. You state that because Raikage was too fast for Sasuke to constantly keep his eyes on then he is slower than Minato. Because Raikage was unable to tag Minato. But you can't prove that Minato could constantly keep his eyes on Raikage based on that.



I'll say it again: How much would you like to put down that Kishimoto _doesn't_ believe that Minato "can't keep up" with Raikage? Seriously. Can I _prove_ that Minato can keep his eyes on Raikage? No, but guess what? _We cannot prove that he'd be unable to either_, and I have _no_ fucking clue why we'd assume he cannot. Minato is the Yellow Flash, the premier speedster of the manga. 



Alex Payne said:


> Let me ask you this. Assume Sasuke that fought Raikage had Hiraishin instead of MS. Do you think Sauce would be unable to react with its activation in time?



Since Raikage wouldn't have had to go around Amaterasu, he'd have just torn Sasuke's head from his shoulders with the fastest punch. Sasuke is not reacting as quickly as fucking Minato did. [1]


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## Nikushimi (Dec 19, 2015)

Base form Minato's speed is on the same level as Itachi's and Gai's (it would be a 5 in the databooks).

Minato also obviously has better Shunshin than even someone like Sasuke, as he did beat the other Hokage in a foot race with it (including Tobirama, former WFM) and this was directly stated.

With the Juin, Sasuke might have speed comparable to Minato's. But he needs the Juin, which causes a huge strain on his body/chakra, while Minato can sustain it casually.

Maybe, _maybe_, with Juin-powered Shunshin, Sasuke could edge Minato out. But that is simply traveling from Point A to Point B, not sustainable combat speed, and it would burn out a significant chunk of Sasuke's stamina for nothing that's really worth it except showing off.

And then Minato can whip out Sage Mode for just a moment and make Sasuke look like a scrub.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Since Raikage wouldn't have had to go around Amaterasu, he'd have just torn Sasuke's head from his shoulders with the fastest punch. Sasuke is not reacting as quickly as fucking Minato did. [1]



Sasuke had time to activate Enton before the Raikage hit him. Yes, A had to dodge Amaterasu first. But then he still went out of his way to attack Sasuke and Sasuke reacted to it.

Unless you're arguing that A's direct, full-speed punch is faster than the horizontal chop from behind. Which may or may not be right; I don't think there's much to go on either way, without knowing how fast he was moving in both sequences and the distance he had to travel.


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## Rocky (Dec 19, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Sasuke had time to activate Enton before the Raikage hit him. Yes, A had to dodge Amaterasu first. But then he still went out of his way to attack Sasuke and Sasuke reacted to it.



Here is my interpretation: 

A used the Shunshin no Jutsu to go around Amaterasu, circling Sasuke in the process. _Then_ he attacked with Raigyaku Suihei, but Sasuke, _upon seeing Raikage disappear from his vision_, used Enton: Kagutsuchi to manifest that fire shield. A attacked Minato with what he calls "his fastest punch." I assume that he uses the Shunshin no Jutsu for that...else it wouldn't be his top speed. 

Sasuke never reacted to A's Shunshin with Kagutsuchi. He used it before the subsequent chop connected, the chop that was used _after Shunshin was over_. I don't know why Raigyaku Suihei would be any faster than Lariat, Erubō, or any of A's other taijutsu. It's still fast, but not as fast as his top speed Shunshin-punch.



Nikushimi said:


> Unless you're arguing that A's direct, full-speed punch is faster than the horizontal chop from behind. Which may or may not be right



Actually, that's cannon. Raikage's fastest punch is his fastest attack, not Raigyaku Suihei.


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## Alex Payne (Dec 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'll say it again: How much would you like to put down that Kishimoto _doesn't_ believe that Minato "can't keep up" with Raikage? Seriously. Can I _prove_ that Minato can keep his eyes on Raikage? No, but guess what? _We cannot prove that he'd be unable to either_, and I have _no_ fucking clue why we'd assume he cannot. Minato is the Yellow Flash, the premier speedster of the manga.


 Why did you use flimsy reasoning like eye-tracking then? Your entire point is basically "Yellow Flash too fast". Just say it like it is.



Rocky said:


> Since Raikage wouldn't have had to go around Amaterasu, he'd have just torn Sasuke's head from his shoulders with the fastest punch. Sasuke is not reacting as quickly as fucking Minato did. [1]


 Raikage being forced to go around Amaterasu? What? Raikage tries Elbow blitz - Sasuke physically dodges. Raikage tries to blitz around Susano - Kagutsuchi blocks him. These are all canon instances of Raikage trying to blitz Sasuke. Sasuke reacted both times. Where is this "fastest punch"? Why wasn't it used?


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## Rocky (Dec 19, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Why did you use flimsy reasoning like eye-tracking then? Your entire point is basically "Yellow Flash too fast". Just say it like it is.



...and what was this:



> CS Sasuke is more reactive than Minato when he can use his Sharingan to track targets.



...based on again?



Alex Payne said:


> Raikage being forced to go around Amaterasu? What? Raikage tries Elbow blitz - Sasuke physically dodges. Raikage tries to blitz around Susano - Kagutsuchi blocks him. These are all canon instances of Raikage trying to blitz Sasuke. Sasuke reacted both times. Where is this "fastest punch"? Why wasn't it used?



No.

Erubō ≠ Fastest Punch

Raigyaku Suihei ≠ Fastest Punch

Fastest Punch: [1][2]



Not every attack Raikage uses is his fastest blitz...


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## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> I gave you Shunshin feats against non-Shunshin feats , that implies that Tobirama's clone catching GudDama before KCM Minato doesn't mean his moves are faster or even closer . If you decline this statement then Sai moves are faster than 3TS Sasuke's , same goes for Yamato , same goes for Weankened P1 Lee against Kimimaro , same goes for P2 Lee agaisnt Kismae , Suigetsu against V1 Ei , Base Bee against V1 Ei , etc ,etc .
> 
> In other hands , Tobirama said that Base Minato is pretty quick to act :



Those examples are related to those characters. That's all. They are not related in any way to Tobirama and they dont prove that Shunshin cant be slower than Shinobi's mere physical movement. 

If Tobirama's clone could use Shunshin faster than KCM Minato's movement speed, than Tobirama's Shunshin is faster than KCM Minato's movement speed. That is simple. 

Maybe Sasuke thought that he will strike Naruto anyway so he wasnt moving at his full speed while attacking Naruto (the same about others). Or maybe Sai was faster indeed. Anyway, the fact is - Tobirama's clone feat is not a low-end feat. It doesnt contradict anything and it fits the manga perfectly. 

Yes, he said that, but that doesnt prove anything. Minato said the same about Tobirama as well. And that's KCM Minato. 



Minato's Shunshin is faster than Tobirama's Shunshin and his Hiraishin is better, but in everything else related to speed, Tobirama is better. A lot.

As far as this debate goes, Minato dominates.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 19, 2015)

There is a huge difference between V1 and V2 , Sasuke dodged V1 Shunshin and placed Chidori , but that wasn't V2 case :


*Spoiler*: __ 







Sasuke *just mentally reacted* V2 Shunshin , but *he doesn't have enough time to move a finger .*

Raikage move was : V2 Shunshun *then *Raiga Suihei . 

In Minato's case , V2 Raikage punch was *accompagning **the Shunshin * there is no successive moves .

C/C : Minato was able to launch a Kunai against Raikage's Shunshin while Sasuke can't even create Enton shield not to mention physical moves .


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## Rocky (Dec 19, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Sasuke dodged V1 Shunshin and placed Chidori.



Last I checked, Sasuke evaded Erubō. No mention of Shunshin.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 19, 2015)

starwandered said:
			
		

> Minato's Shunshin is faster than Tobirama's Shunshin and his Hiraishin is better, but in everything else related to speed, Tobirama is better. A lot.


Lol .



> Those examples are related to those characters. That's all. They are not related in any way to Tobirama and they dont prove that Shunshin cant be slower than Shinobi's mere physical movement.


No , they all are related a lot to that Tobirama's action , because the situations I bring are extremely the same . Saying that Tobirama's moves are faster than KCM Minato is the same as saying :
-weackened P1 Lee is faster than Kimimaro
-Sai is faster than 3TS Sasuke .
-Yamato is faster than 3TS Sasuke .
-Suigetsu is faster than V1 Ei .
-Base Bee is faster than V1 Ei .
etc , etc
It's absurd , and of course Iam talking about raw moves speed not Shunshin .


And yeah , Tobirama said that base Minato is quick to act and Minato said the same statement to Tobirama , I don't see where the nidaime is faster .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Since Raikage wouldn't have had to go around Amaterasu, he'd have just torn Sasuke's head from his shoulders with the fastest punch. Sasuke is not reacting as quickly as fucking Minato did. [1]



There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Sasuke can't react to A's V2 punch.
If A runs into Sasuke straight, Sasuke most likely reacts even better because Raikage will stay in his field of view and his trajectory will be seen.


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## Rocky (Dec 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Sasuke can't react to A's V2 punch.



There's no evidence to suggest that he _can_ react to the fastest punch. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> If A runs into Sasuke straight, Sasuke most likely reacts even better because Raikage will stay in his field of view and his trajectory will be seen.



No. Sasuke didn't need to see A to activate Kagutsuchi. Flash-stepping behind Sasuke with Shunshin & using Raigyaku Suihei to attack is slower than running straight at Sasuke with Shunshin and attacking in the middle of the flash-step. Sasuke barely reacted to the former, so...


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## StarWanderer (Dec 19, 2015)

> Lol .



Conseccion accepted.



> No , they all are related a lot to that Tobirama's action , because the situations I bring are extremely the same . Saying that Tobirama's moves are faster than KCM Minato is the same as saying :
> -weackened P1 Lee is faster than Kimimaro
> -Sai is faster than 3TS Sasuke .
> -Yamato is faster than 3TS Sasuke .
> ...



No it is not the same. Kimimaru was sick at that moment, as i remember. The rest of examples dont prove anything because i dont think any of those characters used their speed to it's fullest while attacking. 

KCM Minato tried to touch that Gudoudama as soon as possible in order to save his son, who was nearby, but Tobirama's clone touched it earlier, thanks to his Shunshin. Those examples are not related to Tobirama's clone feat and that feat perfectly fits the canon. Tobirama's Shunshin is faster than KCM Minato's raw movement speed.



> And yeah , Tobirama said that base Minato is quick to act and Minato said the same statement to Tobirama , I don't see where the nidaime is faster .



He reacted mentally and physically to Juubito's Shunshin and movement speed, marking him with Hiraishin's formula - KCM Minato couldnt do the same and got his arm torn off. KCM Minato tried to touch Gudoudama as soon as possible in order to teleport it away - Tobirama's clone managed to do that earlier, using Shunshin. 

It is obvious that Tobirama is a lot faster than Minato in terms of reflexes and raw movement speed. And it is obvious that his Shunshin speed is faster than KCM Minato's movement speed. Those are canon facts from the manga. How long will you try to refute canon?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> There's no evidence to suggest that he _can_ react to the fastest punch.


He reacted to his V2 shunshin, saw him escape his vision, which means Sasuke was able to percieve A's movement. Again, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that he can't react to A.



> No. Sasuke didn't need to see A to activate Kagutsuchi. Flash-stepping behind Sasuke with Shunshin & using Raigyaku Suihei to attack is slower than running straight at Sasuke with Shunshin and attacking in the middle of the flash-step. Sasuke barely reacted to the former, so...



A moving out of Sasuke's field of view threw him off and he was preoccupied with casting Amaterasu. 

If you replace him with Minato, in other words put him in the defensive position(not the offensive one) and he has Hirashin, he casually reacts.


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## Rocky (Dec 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He reacted to his V2 shunshin, saw him escape his vision, which means Sasuke was able to percieve A's movement.



That doesn't mean he can react to it in time to stop it. By the time Sasuke turned his head, Raikage was already behind him. That means that Sasuke didn't react at all until A had already closed the distance. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Again, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that he can't react to A.



...again, there isn't any evidence that he can. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> A moving out of Sasuke's field of view threw him off and he was preoccupied with casting Amaterasu.



"Preoccupied with casting Amaterasu" is another way of saying that he was preoccupied with staring at Raikage. 

Kagutsuchi barely made it against indirect Shunshin followed by Raigyaku Suihei. Dunno how Sasuke would make it in time against A's fastest direct Shunshin, aka his "fastest punch."  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> If you replace him with Minato, in other words put him in the defensive position(not the offensive one) and he has Hirashin, he casually reacts.



Baseless.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> That doesn't mean he can react to it in time to stop it. By the time Sasuke turned his head, Raikage was already behind him. That means that Sasuke didn't react at all until A had already closed the distance.


1
Raikage was still moving when Kagutschi was formed, and he had to stop because of that.



> ...again, there isn't any evidence that he can.
> 
> "Preoccupied with casting Amaterasu" is another way of saying that he was preoccupied with staring at Raikage.


I think you have no idea what you are talking about. Sasuke's whole attention was focused solely on casting a technique, and he was thrown off when A escaped his vision.

It isn't the same thing as focusing your entire attention for watching out his movement, solely for defensive purposes.
If Sasuke's intention was get out of A's way with Hirashin, he would teleport away the moment he percieved A move, which would be alot easier with sharingan as A would move towards him with a linear trajectory.


> Kagutsuchi barely made it against indirect Shunshin followed by Raigyaku Suihei. Dunno how Sasuke would make it in time against A's fastest direct Shunshin, aka his "fastest punch."


I explained this above. 
A non preoccupied Sasuke would easily react to Raikage moving within his field of view.
There is a significant difference between focusing on one thing and focusing on more than one.

Also you shouldn't ignore that Raikage and Sasuke were 2 - 3 meters away, alot closer in proximity to the positioning of A and Minato, which was easily more than twice the distance


Minato had 2 significant advantages.
1 - He was standing alot further away than Sasuke in proximity to A.
2 - His whole attention was focused on defensive purposes. In other words, he wasn't preoccupied with something else when A charged @ him.



> Baseless.


Ironic.


----------



## Rocky (Dec 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Raikage was still moving when Kagutschi was formed, and he had to stop because of that.



Yeah, he was swinging into Susanoo with Raigyaku Suihei. Then he stopped himself. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke's whole attention was focused solely on casting a technique, and he was thrown off when A escaped his vision.



The technique he was casting requires him to focus his attention solely on Raikage. Even if Amaterasu slowed him down, all that proves is that Sasuke would have put up Kagutsuchi sooner. It doesn't prove that Sasuke's actually fast enough to react to Raikage's fastest punch. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> If Sasuke's intention was get out of A's way with Hirashin, he would teleport away the moment he percieved A move



You're assuming he's actually fast enough to activate a jutsu before Raikage gets there, which is baseless. Sasuke never faced A's fastest punch, which is basically him punching you in the face in the middle of a Shunshin. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> A non preoccupied Sasuke would easily react to Raikage moving in his field of view.



Based on what?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Raikage and Sasuke were 2 - 3 meters away, alot closer in proximity to the positioning of A and Minato, which was easily more than twice the distance



I know that.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Yeah, he was swinging into Susanoo with Raigyaku Suihei. Then he stopped himself.


He stopped because enton popped, meaning Enton was formed before A could finish his V2 shunsin + attack combo.



> The technique he was casting requires him to focus his attention solely on Raikage. Even if Amaterasu slowed him down, all that proves is that Sasuke would have put up Kagutsuchi sooner. It doesn't prove that Sasuke's actually fast enough to react to Raikage's fastest punch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am trying to understand your line of thinking here...

Minato reacts to Raikage from 8-10 meters when he is doing nothing but waiting for him to attack.

Sasuke reacts to Raikage from 3 meters when he is preoccupied with casting a technique.

And you are saying that Sasuke wouldn't be able to react if he was in Minato's position.
Meaning if he was moved further away from A and if he wasn't preoccupied....

I really don't follow man. Isn't he supposed to react better ? Because being in Minato's situation is significantly more beneficial. Greater distance and no distractions.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 19, 2015)

MS users are generally susceptible to attacks after Amaterasu is casted, especially when taking into consideration of Sasuke's inexperience and his inability to handle the physical fatigue at that moment. 

 The fact that Sasuke caught Ei leaving his field of vision suggests that he perceived his movement. The reason why he couldn't follow his movement any further is because Ei can move much faster than Sasuke can shift his head and also because Sasuke was pre-occupied with casting his Amaterasu. Had Ei began moving in a linear fashion, he'd have no trouble tracking him at all and that's been emphasized by Sasuke against Bee.

 This:

 A and Minato, which was easily more than twice the distance


 Is much different than this:

 A and Minato, which was easily more than twice the distance


 and especially this:

 A and Minato, which was easily more than twice the distance


 And Sasuke still tracked Raikage despite being vulnerable after using Amaterasu.

 The last scan signifies a blitz and the previous scan almost represents that and certainly would have if Sasuke wasn't 20-30m away from Deidara. If Raikage was so much faster than Sasuke that he could outright blitz him, why didn't he Shunshin blitz him from the get-go instead of waiting for Sasuke to initiate his MS technique? Because Raikage believed that he couldn't blitz Sasuke to the point where Sasuke can't track him which means Sasuke could've initiated a technique when Raikage's vulnerable due to moving at full speed.

 Raikage can't blitz Sasuke, it's as simple as that.


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## Rocky (Dec 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato reacts to Raikage from 8-10 meters when he is doing nothing but waiting for him to attack.
> 
> Sasuke reacts to Raikage from 3 meters when he is preoccupied with casting a technique.



No.

Sasuke was not _reacting_ to any specific attack with Kagutsuchi. Kagutsuchi was used because Sasuke could no longer see Raikage ("If I can't see him, put up a shield so he can't attack me"). 

So Sasuke uses Amaterasu, then A uses Shunshin. A dodges Amateratsu and is gone. After that, A uses Raigyaku Suihei & Sasuke uses Kagutsuchi, and Kagutsuchi gets there first. 

Minato was reacting to A's fist closing in on his nose. An fist that was confirmed to be Raikage's fastest punch. So A used Shunshin, and Minato reacted to Shunshin with Hiraishin.

Non-comparable situations.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 20, 2015)

> No it is not the same. Kimimaru was sick at that moment, as i remember. The rest of examples dont prove anything because i dont think any of those characters used their speed to it's fullest while attacking.


No they was :
-V1 Raikage was serious but was blocked by Suigetsu and then by bas Bee .
-Sasuke was serious but got blocked by Sai and Yamato .
-Kimimaro was sick , P1 Lee was sick eighter .
etc
etc
And yeah it proves that Shunshin move>>>>Raw move it's canon .




> KCM Minato tried to touch that Gudoudama as soon as possible in order to save his son, who was nearby, but Tobirama's clone touched it earlier, thanks to his Shunshin. Those examples are not related to Tobirama's clone feat and that feat perfectly fits the canon. Tobirama's Shunshin is faster than KCM Minato's raw movement speed.


yeah but infortunatly Tobirama used a Shunshin move while Minato used just a raw move , that's prove anything , the manga is pretty clear you are just misrepresent manga's feat for your favourrite character .

And also  I forgot , Juubito who is much faster than Sage Madara has to block Minato's strike while Tobirama failed in surprise attack . that's prove : KCM Minato>>>>>Tobirama in moves speed .

And also Tobirama said that one instant in CQC  agaist Juubito means he will be instantly vaporised :

*Spoiler*: __ 







While Minato just lost one arme and was able to strike . 


As for the famous tagging false feats :
-P1 Hiruzn was able to partially dodge Brainless Juubito's GudoDama's changing shape and wasn't able to physically react to his moves .
-Same goes for KCM Naruto , he couldn't physically react to Brainless Juubito's moves but was able to generate chakra arms and touch Minato who was 10/15m further , that means that *chakra arms speed>>>Gudo Dama changin shape speed .*
If we add that Tobirama himself admitted that he will be instantly vaporised by Juubito then he reacted to GudoDama changing shape not his super fast moves . It's deduction saying the opposit means shitting on manga's feats .

KCM Minato>>Minaot>=Tobirama , it's canon .


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## Alex Payne (Dec 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> ...and what was this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...based on again?


 It is based on trying to _think_ about all them feats. And not simply dive into just hype/titles. Sasuke has both excellent reflexes and excellent 3-tomoe feats. His reflexes are below Minato's and 3-tomoe is just a tool that scales up to user's abilities. But together they might barely edge Minato's reaction when Sauce can use pre-cog. Sasuke fought both Killer B and Raikage and got both praise and solid feats.



Rocky said:


> No.
> 
> Erubō ≠ Fastest Punch
> 
> ...


I see the word outrun here. Sasuke didn't outrun Raikage. He _reacted_ with MS. That is what matters here. Sasuke reacted to everything Raikage was throwing at him in their canon fight. Minato didn't physically outrun Raikage either - he had a jutsu that allowed him to change his position. And his reflexes allowed him to _react_.




Sasuke fights Killer B. B praises his speed and mentions Raikage's. States that Sauce was one of the strongest he ever fought. 
Sasuke fights Raikage. Raikage gets hyped for having Minato's reflexes in Base. Uses Raiton Chakra Mode. Sasuke evades Elbow and lands Chidori. Raikage tries to assault Susano. Sasuke reacts with Kagutsuchi. 

Raikage clashed with Minato multiple times. Not a single scar seen.
Raikage fights Sasuke - loses his hand.

I am not sure about you. But I can see that Sasuke has _something_ going for him in terms of speed/reaction. Based on all that.

Don't get blinded by Hiraishin making Minato look awesome. S/T jutsu in general make users look faster/more reactive than they really are. Minato got his hand full with young Obito and needed a split second opening to win. Adult Obito was trolling superspeed Naruto, Gai, Kakashi and Killer B. Take away Kamui and he gets his teeth kicked in by just Kakashi. Obito was _reacting_ to coordinated attacks of Gai+Naruto. But he would get stomped without Kamui. We have multiple instances of people reacting but not being capable of a physical response (Lee vs Sasuke, Danzo/Kakashi vs Sasuke). A lot of people who get blitzed can mentally react, they just can't physically stop the blitz. S/T jutsu like Hiraishin working on mental reaction simply makes the user look awesomely fast/have awesome reaction. But their reactions are still on par with other speedy people. Those speedy people simply lack S/T jutsu. You have RCM Raikage having better reflexes than Minato. Yet he still can't beat Hiraishin.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> No.
> 
> Sasuke was not _reacting_ to any specific attack with Kagutsuchi. Kagutsuchi was used because Sasuke could no longer see Raikage ("If I can't see him, put up a shield so he can't attack me").


How does that make any difference ? Sasuke could percieve A move and react accordingly. Thats all that matters when we are specifically talking about reaction speed.



> So Sasuke uses Amaterasu, then A uses Shunshin. A dodges Amateratsu and is gone. After that, A uses Raigyaku Suihei & Sasuke uses Kagutsuchi, and Kagutsuchi gets there first.
> 
> Minato was reacting to A's fist closing in on his nose. An fist that was confirmed to be Raikage's fastest punch. So A used Shunshin, and Minato reacted to Shunshin with Hiraishin.



Its more like, Sasuke uses Amaterasu, A circles behind Sasuke while dodging Amaterasu and before his hit can connect Sasuke uses Kagutschi.

Reacting to a straigthforward attack from longer range is easier no matter how you look at it, even if you ignore the fact that Sasuke's attention was split between offense and defense and Minato's was solely focused on defense.



> Non-comparable situations.



Thats what I have been saying.
Minato's situation is infinitely better compared to Sasuke's, because he is further away from Raikage, meaning he has more time to react and he wasn't preoccupied with something else.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 20, 2015)

Alex Pain said:
			
		

> Minato didn't physically outrun Raikage either


He launched a Kunai while , Sasuke created Enton shield after Raikage's Shunshin .


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## LostSelf (Dec 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> My arguments for v2 Raikage typically consist of "you lose if you don't have Minato-reflexes," but Minato has Minato-reflexes.



But Nagato would beat the Raikage... Oh, you're implying he has MInato reflexes .


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 20, 2015)

Bee: "Well, that Sharingan dude's probably the toughest fellow I've ever fought."

 Bee actually admits he's the toughest guy he's ever fought.

 At least, according to the Viz Translation.

 MS Sasuke >> Minato confirmed.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 20, 2015)

Actually Bee said that Sasuke+Taka were a bunch of weaklings while he trembled just hearing Minato's name=>Minato>>>>>Taka and it's pretty true .


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 20, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Actually Bee said that Sasuke+Taka were a bunch of weaklings while he trembled just hearing Minato's name=>Minato>>>>>Taka and it's pretty true .



 That's because Sasuke didn't use the full extent of his abilities. Actually, MS Sasuke is more experienced than he was against Bee.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 20, 2015)

Raikage said that no one never surpassed Minato while he fought KS MS Sasuke who is much stronger than the version which fought Bee .


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 20, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Raikage said that no one never surpassed Minato while he fought KS MS Sasuke who is much stronger than the version which fought Bee .



 In terms of speed, yes.

 Pa and Tsunade practically confirmed that SM Naruto surpassed his predecessors which includes Minato.

 And even then, Zetsu stated that that same Naruto * might * have been stronger than Sasuke and MS Sasuke attained greater experience and power through developing his Mangekyo.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 20, 2015)

No , Raikage said that no one surpassed Minato in global stengh not speed . He said that no one never reached his level not no one was faster than him .

And no , Pa said that Naruto only surpassed Minato in Senjutsu , he still can't react to Madara's Shunshin which is slower than Minato's .

And I forgot , Minato can clean Taka Sasuke in one shot , Shunshin+Rasengan and it's over , no need for Hiraishin .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 20, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> And I forgot , Minato can clean Taka Sasuke in one shot , Shunshin+Rasengan and it's over , no need for Hiraishin .



Sasuke'd just outmanuver him and hit him with Chidori, like he did to a physicaly superior opponent, A.
The only difference is Minato can't tank Chidori and he dies on the spot.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 20, 2015)

Well Minato> blind Madara>>SM Naruto>=3TS Sasuke .

And also , Minato>>V1 Ei


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## Vice (Dec 20, 2015)

So Hebi Sasuke fought A now? 

And I like how people are pretending that Hairashin isn't a thing that Minato has to physically react to activate it each individual time, it's not just a flick of the switch and it's on permanently. 

Base Minato's reflexes >>>>>>>> Hebi Sasuke


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## Rocky (Dec 20, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke'd just outmanuver him and hit him with Chidori, like he did to a physicaly superior opponent, A.



Minato & A don't have the same fighting style. Further, A made no apparent effort to evade Chidori anyway.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 20, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> No , Raikage said that no one surpassed Minato in global stengh not speed . He said that no one never reached his level not no one was faster than him .



 2

 Given the context of his statement, he was referencing his speed and further emphasized his statement by claiming that he couldn't surpass his speed * despite * engaging in * multiple * encounters.



> And no , Pa said that Naruto only surpassed Minato in Senjutsu , he still can't react to Madara's Shunshin which is slower than Minato's.



 2

 No, Pa only states that Naruto surpasses those who came before him meaning he surpassed him overall. It wouldn't make sense if Pa was specifically referring to Senjutsu when Minato also attained a Perfect Sage Mode.



> And I forgot , Minato can clean Taka Sasuke in one shot , Shunshin+Rasengan and it's over , no need for Hiraishin.



 2

 No he wouldn't. V1 Raikage's speed was perceived by Suigetsu who's the least reflexive of the group. Minato's not simply Shunshin blitzing with a Rasengan, especially when Minato's own speed and reflexes were compared to Base Raikage's:

 2


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## Rocky (Dec 20, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Given the context of his statement, he was referencing his speed and further emphasized his statement by claiming that he couldn't surpass his speed * despite * engaging in * multiple * encounters.





Doesn't sound like A's comment is speed-related. 



NarutoX28 said:


> It wouldn't make sense if Pa was specifically referring to Senjutsu when Minato also attained a Perfect Sage Mode.



Minato wasn't as good as Naruto at senjutsu, though.



NarutoX28 said:


> V1 Raikage's speed was perceived by Suigetsu who's the least reflexive of the group.



That just makes Suigetsu quite fast, because Kisame couldn't react to Naruto, who couldn't get past v1 A until his sixth try. Or, of course, A wasn't using Shunshin.


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## FlamingRain (Dec 20, 2015)

Ay's comment about Minato is identical to Minato's comment about Jiraiya.


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## Rocky (Dec 20, 2015)

I group all of those comments together. Jiraiya's praise of Tsunade & Minato, Minato's praise of Jiraiya, A's praise of Minato, Hashirama's praise of Itachi, etc.


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## Saru (Dec 20, 2015)

Minato is obviously faster than Hebi Sasuke. Speed is Minato's whole schtick and people think Hebi Sasuke is faster? 

I would even hesitate to call Sasuke's reflexes faster than Minato's. Hebi Sasuke never fought anyone remotely close to Minato's speed level aside from Itachi, who was jobbing hard. Although I see how one could make the argument that Hebi Sasuke has reflexes equal to or greater than Minato's in speed based on his battle against A. But reflexes, and reflexes alone.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 20, 2015)

Euh no , here is the real comment :


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## hbcaptain (Dec 20, 2015)

And according to Jiraya in Viz translation :
Jiraiya: Aw come on, *everybody pales in comparison to the fourth lord*. As a shinobi his capacity was unparalleled, a true one-of-a kind. He was overflowing with talent for jutsu and intelligence....He was socially popular...And well, he was quite a looker, just like me.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 20, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Euh no , here is the real comment :



 And the prior comment implies what Raikage is referring to the most.

 Actually, the fact that Raikage conceded as KCM Naruto being the potential savior after he dodged Raikage's Shunshin implies that Raikage only put Minato at such a high level due to his "speed".

 And again, I already referenced why that's a speed-related comment. He stated that he engaged Minato in multiple counters yet could never beat him, obviously due to his "speed".


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Doesn't sound like A's comment is speed-related.



 Raikage couldn't beat him in his multiple encounters due to Minato's "Yellow Flash" speed hence why Raikage placed him at such a high pedestal.



> Minato wasn't as good as Naruto at senjutsu, though.



 Naruto had similar disadvantages that Minato did at the time.



> That just makes Suigetsu quite fast, because Kisame couldn't react to Naruto, who couldn't get past v1 A until his sixth try. Or, of course, A wasn't using Shunshin.



 KCM Naruto obviously used Shunshin above V2 Raikage as Bee implied that all he could see was the "Yellow Flash" despite the fact that V2 Raikage's Shunshin is never described as such.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 20, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> And according to Jiraya in Viz translation :
> Jiraiya: Aw come on, *everybody pales in comparison to the fourth lord*. As a shinobi his capacity was unparalleled, a true one-of-a kind. He was overflowing with talent for jutsu and intelligence....He was socially popular...And well, he was quite a looker, just like me.



 Sandaime Hokage's hype literally contradicts that.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 20, 2015)

-Jiraya said that Minato is far stronger than anyone else .
-Kakashi said that the only one that could potentialy surpass Minato is Naruto while he was aware about Tsukuyomi , Amaterasu and most of Itachi's Jutsu .
-Raiakge said that no one never surpassed Minato , there is no mention of speed here , you are just misunderstanding because of your preferences .
-Bee trembles just hearing Minato's name .

All that feats place Minato on his own category .


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## hbcaptain (Dec 20, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sandaime Hokage's hype literally contradicts that.


Sandaime was hyped by....Iruka and Ebisu and Minato was directly compared toward his feats , Jiraya , Raikage , Kakashi , all those top tiers know about Minato's ability and still claim that no one never surpassed him .


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## Kaiser (Dec 20, 2015)

Minato is obviously faster. The dude was reknowned for it


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## Rocky (Dec 20, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Raikage couldn't beat him in his multiple encounters due to Minato's "Yellow Flash" speed hence why Raikage placed him at such a high pedestal.



Minato's speed is a rather large part of his power.



NarutoX28 said:


> Naruto had similar disadvantages that Minato did at the time.



Just to be clear, you're equating Minato proficiency in senjutsu with Pain Arc Naruto's?



NarutoX28 said:


> KCM Naruto obviously used Shunshin above V2 Raikage as Bee implied that all he could see was the "Yellow Flash" despite the fact that V2 Raikage's Shunshin is never described as such.



I just told you that Naruto didn't surpass A until after his sixth try. Naruto doesn't have "v1 & v2." The Raikage not being called the Yellow Flash does not magically override that. Naruto tried to run past A, and was surprised that Raikage could keep up. Then he tried again and failed repeatedly. His dialogue indicates he was trying his hardest. 

By the way, this is an excerpt from a fan translation of RCM's Databook entry that I found:

_"A god-like speed that also catches up with Naruto in Tailed—Beast chakra mode, and even praised to be as fast as the “Yellow Flash”.”_

So....


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Minato's speed is a rather large part of his power.



 Which is why he was referring entirely to his speed. Raikage only considered KCM Naruto as the "savior" after he evaded V2 Raikage's Shunshin which was something only Minato had done. Raikage only had taken in consideration of the speed-component rather than Naruto's other abilities which is why it's a reference to Minato's speed.



> Just to be clear, you're equating Minato proficiency in senjutsu with Pain Arc Naruto's?



 They held similar disadvantages.

 - It takes time for Naruto to knead Senjutsu Chakra. 
 - Naruto's time during Sage Mode is quite limited.

 But again, Pa didn't reference Naruto's Senjutsu or it would've been stated. Actually, why did Pa comment on Naruto surpassing his predecessors after blitzing Asura Path rather rather than commenting on it after he mastered Sage Mode?

 Actually, the fact that he only mentioned that Naruto surpassed Jiraiya after mastering his Sage Mode implies that Pa's statement had nothing to do with Naruto's ability to use Senjutsu, but his strength in general because he didn't reference Minato beforehand.




> I just told you that Naruto didn't surpass A until after his sixth try. Naruto doesn't have "v1 & v2."  * The Raikage not being called the Yellow Flash does not magically override that. * Naruto tried to run past A, and was surprised that Raikage could keep up. Then he tried again and failed repeatedly. His dialogue indicates he was trying his hardest.



 It actually does. The entire situation emphasized how Minato was the only one who was faster than Raikage and KCM Naruto replicated that by evading V2 Raikage's Shunshin at the last moment. It makes sense as to why KCM Naruto's speed was perceived as a "Yellow Flash" whereas Raikage's was not.

 Raikage's dialogue also suggested he was trying his hardest and he even asked Tsunade for help. Doesn't refute the fact that Raikage could try his hardest and as KCM Naruto displayed against both Kisame and V2 Raikage, he could.



> By the way, this is an excerpt from a fan translation of RCM's Databook entry that I found:
> 
> _"A god-like speed that also catches up with Naruto in Tailed—Beast chakra mode, and even praised to be as fast as the “Yellow Flash”.”_
> 
> So....



2



			
				Raikage said:
			
		

> There is no shinobi faster than me now that the Fourth Hokage is not around.



 Minato was perceived to be faster than Raikage based on Raikage's own affirmation.

 As for KCM Naruto:

 2



> He dodged it!? Asshole bastard ... * That really looked ... ... Just like the Yellow Flash!! *



 Yeah, Raikage was not on par with KCM Naruto's speed.


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## Bonly (Dec 20, 2015)

Even without FTG I'd give the nod to Base Minato being faster then Base Hebi Sasuke


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 20, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Sandaime was hyped by....Iruka and Ebisu and Minato was directly compared toward his feats , Jiraya , Raikage , Kakashi , all those top tiers know about Minato's ability and still claim that no one never surpassed him .



 He was hyped up as the Strongest Hokage. I'm not sure how Iruka or Ebisu's capabilities takes away from how Sandaime Hokage compared to other Kages.

 Yeah, no one surpassed Minato in speed.


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## hbcaptain (Dec 20, 2015)

Only you are talking about seed only , Kakashi , Jiraya and Raikage were talking about overal level .


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 20, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Only you are talking about seed only , Kakashi , Jiraya and Raikage were talking about overal level .



 Raikage wasn't. He valued speed more than his overall ability.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Minato & A don't have the same fighting style.


I was responding to his assertion, that Minato would shunshin towards Sasuke with a rasengan in his hand.


> Further, A made no apparent effort to evade Chidori anyway.


He *couldn't. * Because he got outmanuvered.
Courtesy of sharingan precog.



hbcaptain said:


> And also , Minato>>V1 Ei



V1 A > A = Minato


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## Rocky (Dec 20, 2015)

Nah, he could have just activated the body flicker and sped away when he saw Sasuke duck. He had no need to, because he didn't think Chidori was going to do anything to him.


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## Dr. White (Dec 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nah, he could have just activated the body flicker and sped away when he saw Sasuke duck. He had no need to, because he didn't think Chidori was going to do anything to him.



Where was this evidenced? The whole point was Sasuke timing it mid move. nothing suggest Ei could have positioned himself, changed his momentum, and moved from that position.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nah, he could have just activated the body flicker and sped away when he saw Sasuke duck. He had no need to, because he didn't think Chidori was going to do anything to him.



 The fact that he couldn't dodge actually suggests he was using his Flicker there.


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## Rocky (Dec 20, 2015)

There isn't any evidence that he was incapable of dodging. That's the thing with Raikage. His durability makes it so that he doesn't have to try and avoid every attack. He's got the reflexes to see Sasuke duck under him and still activate Jutsu, so he probably chose not to dodge. A was surprised that Sasuke touched him through the armor, not that Sasuke outsped him.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 20, 2015)

There's no evidence that suggests that he was capable of dodging either.


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## Rocky (Dec 20, 2015)

Yes there is. His reflexes are above Minato's, so Sasuke moves in slow-mo. As soon as he sees Sasuke duck, all he's got to do is use Shunshin no Jutsu and speed away.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Yes there is. His reflexes are above Minato's, so Sasuke moves in slow-mo. As soon as he sees Sasuke duck, all he's got to do is use Shunshin no Jutsu and speed away.



 Raikage was still lunging towards Sasuke and that left himself vulnerable, much like here:

here


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## Dr. White (Dec 20, 2015)

No. You are assuming that Ei can just speed out of any situation despite his position, momentum, and other external factors. Which is obviously false.


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## Rocky (Dec 20, 2015)

His position is irrelevant. We've seen A dodge a dozen lasers from an inch away with his arm stuck inside of Jugo. His momentum there was also irrelevant. We've seen less skilled characters, like Exams Sasuke, suddenly change direction in the middle of a punch. There were no other external factors. He could have evaded.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> His position is irrelevant. We've seen A dodge a dozen lasers from an inch away with his arm stuck inside of Jugo.



 Was he lunging at high speeds against a moving target?

 I'll let you answer that. 



> His momentum there was also irrelevant. We've seen less skilled characters, like Exams Sasuke, suddenly change direction in the middle of a punch. There were no other external factors. He could have evaded.



 Raikage in that instant couldn't.

 It's far more difficult to react when you're lunging at high speeds against a moving target. If that wasn't the case, then Raikage wouldn't have needed Bee's help against Minato.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nah, he could have just activated the body flicker and sped away when he saw Sasuke duck. He had no need to, because he didn't think Chidori was going to do anything to him.



Fanfiction. 
The whole point of that encounter is to show how Sasuke is able to outmanuver A with sharingan precog, not to show that A can willingly tank anything.


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## Rocky (Dec 20, 2015)

There's a reason I brought up Exams Sasuke. He was lunging at Gaara's sand which was moving to block him, and suddenly Sasuke is behind Gaara. It is fair to assume that Raikage possess greater skill & control than exams Sauce.

He probably didn't evade Minato because he was surprised at Minato evading his top speed. That creates an opening for the Yellow Flash to bamflash. No harm done. Raikage charged Minato again right after that, and _he wasn't worried that it would happen again,_ now was he?

@Grimm

In my opinion, the scene was there to display Raikage's crazy durability, which is why all the comments were "good job getting through my armor" and not "good job outmaneuvering me".


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## Dr. White (Dec 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> His position is irrelevant. We've seen A dodge a dozen lasers from an inch away with his arm stuck inside of Jugo. His momentum there was also irrelevant. We've seen less skilled characters, like Exams Sasuke, suddenly change direction in the middle of a punch. There were no other external factors. He could have evaded.


> No it isn't, it's the same thing Minato took advantage of. By your logic, Ei could have just shushin'd away after Minato dissapeared from his view, seeing as in this very same thread you claimed Ei's reflexes are > Minato's and seeing as unlike his Hirashin vs Obito, he had to relocate to a safe spot before V2'ing Ei.
> Juugo example is compeltely irrelevant. Ei is hundreds of times stronger than Juugo. Ei was literally just standing there stationary when he had his hand in Juugo and simply shushin'd away from said stationary position subsequently pulling his hand out.
> Sasuke was using speed and agility based off of Gai/Lee's weightless style. Ei is going waaaaayyyyyyy to fast to be pulling off shit like that. The weightless style emphasizes controlled short burst movements using solel physical speed, Ei uses his V forms to straight up blitz people in a very direct manner. This is the reason he went crashing into the wall when Tobi ducked his blitz attempt, he isn't as controlled.



Rocky said:


> There's a reason I brought up Exams Sasuke. He was lunging at Gaara's sand which was moving to block him, and suddenly Sasuke is behind Gaara. It is fair to assume that Raikage possess greater skill & control than exams Sauce.


Ei's feats suggest otherwise, and you can't just equalize styles like that. Ei's Raiton armor is different from pure physical agility/taijutsu. It's like saying Ei could dodge like Drunk Lee because he is more skilled than him.


> He probably didn't evade Minato because he was surprised at Minato evading his top speed. That creates an opening for the Yellow Flash to bamflash. No harm done. Raikage charged Minato again right after that, and _he wasn't worried that it would happen again,_ now was he?


No, he didn't dodge because he couldn't adjust his body position in time to get out of the way, unless you are arguing Ei wanted to get hit. He straight up apologized to Bee for having to worry about him. He didn't worry about it the second time because he thought he could blitz Minato when he appeared at the kunai, and had Bee at his back.

Also this;



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Fanfiction.
> The whole point of that encounter is to show how Sasuke is able to outmanuver A with sharingan precog, not to show that A can willingly tank anything.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> @Grimm
> 
> In my opinion, the scene was there to display Raikage's crazy durability, which is why all the comments were "good job getting through my armor" and not "good job outmaneuvering me".




I agree that Raikage's durability was also displayed. But there was extre emphasis placed on sharingan precog; Sasuke ducking under the elbow and then landing the hit. 

From your point of view, Raikage probably wanted his elbow to miss too


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## Rocky (Dec 20, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> No it isn't, it's the same thing Minato took advantage of. By your logic, Ei could have just shushin'd away after Minato dissapeared from his view.



Read my posts. Did I not just say he was surprised, which in turn created an opening for the Yellow Flash? 



Without the surprise factor, A _can_ Shunshin away right when Minato disappears from his view. That was his plan:





Dr. White said:


> Juugo example is compeltely irrelevant. Ei is hundreds of times stronger than Juugo. Ei was literally just standing there stationary when he had his hand in Juugo and simply shushin'd away from said stationary position subsequently pulling his hand out.



_Soooo_ is your point that you have to be stationary to use Shunshin? If so, can you please let me know where that was said?



Dr. White said:


> Sasuke was using speed and agility based off of Gai/Lee's weightless style. Ei is going waaaaayyyyyyy to fast to be pulling off shit like that. The weightless style emphasizes controlled short burst movements using solel physical speed, Ei uses his V forms to straight up blitz people in a very direct manner.



A is not going "way too fast" to change direction. A can control his own speed. If you can instantly accelerate, you can instantly decelerate. That'd be why he can pop up in Naruto's face without going flying past him from momentum. [1] 



Dr. White said:


> This is the reason he went crashing into the wall when Tobi ducked his blitz attempt, he isn't as controlled.



Or he was surprised that he slipped through Obito, which is not something that normally happens. Raikage doesn't care about going flying into walls. He's got super strength & super durability. 



Dr. White said:


> He didn't worry about it the second time because he thought he could blitz Minato when he appeared at the kunai.



Indeed. If A thought he could blitz Minato as soon as he popped up at a Kunai, _that means that A didn't think that Minato could warp to a Kunai and warp back to attack him_ like he had just done.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I agree that Raikage's durability was also displayed. But there was extre emphasis placed on sharingan precog; Sasuke ducking under the elbow and then landing the hit.



The Sharingan is how Sasuke was able to avoid A's strike, but the reason A was hit is because Kishimoto wanted to display A's freakish durability by having him laugh off Chidori. If the point was to hype Sasuke's speed, then he would have had A compliment Sasuke's speed, not Chidori's power.

That is only my opinion, of course. This cannot be proven either way.


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## Rocky (Dec 20, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It actually does. The entire situation emphasized how Minato was the only one who was faster than Raikage and KCM Naruto replicated that by evading V2 Raikage's Shunshin at the last moment. It makes sense as to why KCM Naruto's speed was perceived as a "Yellow Flash" whereas Raikage's was not.



Perception of speed varies from ninja to ninja. As far as Sakura was concerned, Sasuke was the yellow flash at the beginning of Part II. [1]

B compared Naruto to Minato originally, but Yamato corrected him, noting he wasn't yet at the 4th's level of skill. Naruto only reached that level after five or so attempts at getting past Raikage. 



NarutoX28 said:


> Raikage's dialogue also suggested he was trying his hardest and he even asked Tsunade for help.



Raikage's hair spikes when he tries his hardest. His hair didn't spike until the very last exchange. 



NarutoX28 said:


> Yeah, Raikage was not on par with KCM Naruto's speed.



Naruto (and Minato) were obviously his superiors, but he was generally comparable to them. 

-Minato & Naruto
--Raikage
-----------------The others.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Perception of speed varies from ninja to ninja. As far as Sakura was concerned, Sasuke was the yellow flash at the beginning of Part II. [1]



 I agree, but the entire situation revolved around KCM Naruto reaching the level his father achieved, so him reaching Minato's level in terms of speed is logical and we have multiple characters comparing him to the "Yellow Flash", one of which, is B who has first-hand experience dealing with Raikage and Minato's own speed.

 The fact that V2 Raikage didn't appear as a flash implies that KCM Naruto was faster and reached Minato's level as he was the only who surpassed Raikage.



> B compared Naruto to Minato originally, but Yamato corrected him, noting he wasn't yet at the 4th's level of skill. Naruto only reached that level after five or so attempts at getting past Raikage.



 That was due to the fact that Naruto lacked control over his own speed and that's obvious because he literally slammed the ground and left himself vulnerable to a potential counter-attack.  He still appeared as a flash to B which implies that he was near the "Yellow Flash's" level of speed. Well, unless of course, Yamato has superior reactions than B, but let's not go there considering Pre-Hebi Sasuke was nearly imperceptible by Yamato's perspective. 



> Raikage's hair spikes when he tries his hardest. His hair didn't spike until the very last exchange.



 So you concede because the dialogue that preceded that moment implied he was trying his hardest despite the fact that he actually wasn't.





> Naruto (and Minato) were obviously his superiors, but he was generally comparable to them.
> 
> -Minato & Naruto
> --Raikage
> -----------------The others.



 No, Raikage was noticeably slower. Raikage's statement had a lot to do with Minato's own ability to dodge his punch and the distance Minato "traveled" was far greater than the distance Raikage traveled, so Raikage clearly considered Minato as being much faster than himself unless Raikage's a dumbass.

 KCM Naruto was also stated to "replicate" that level of speed by both Tsunade and B and that's even further emphasized when KCM Naruto managed to evade the strike and travel ~15m before Raikage could even travel a few inches.

 Naruto was much faster.


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## Rocky (Dec 21, 2015)

"The fact that v2 Raikage didn't appear as a flash" is an incorrect assertion. It isn't fact that A didn't appear as a flash, you know. The only character to ever comment on his speed was Karin, saying that he's too quick for Sasuke to keep up with. To characters without magic eyes, A might as well be a flash of light. 

Naruto was "near Minato's speed" against Kisame, _but he wasn't there yet_, which is why he couldn't get past Raikage. That falls in line with the Databook; Raikage is inferior, but generally comparable to Minato. Thus, Naruto needed to be completely at Minato's level to surpass A.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> "The fact that v2 Raikage didn't appear as a flash" is an incorrect assertion. It isn't fact that A didn't appear as a flash, you know. The only character to ever comment on his speed was Karin, saying that he's too quick for Sasuke to keep up with. To characters without magic eyes, A might as well be a flash of light.



 MS Sasuke couldn't follow him, but he tracked him after Raikage shifted a few inches to the side despite the fact that MS Sasuke was left susceptible and was pre-occupied with casting Amaterasu. Magic eyes certainly aren't needed.

 The only level of speed that was shown to be imperceptible to those with the Sharingan in the War Arc was BM Naruto's Shunshin which is much faster than KCM Naruto's, so even if you were to argue that MS Sasuke was blitzed, War Arc Power Scaling sets the standards stupidly high.

 Gaara even comments 7th Gate Gai's speed as being superhuman despite never stating such with Raikage's own speed. We have some Jonin level ninja reacting to Sandaime Raikage's level of speed with a mere seal and managed to perform a feint against him when he was an inch away from both him and Naruto. 



> Naruto was "near Minato's speed" against Kisame, _but he wasn't there yet_, which is why he couldn't get past Raikage. That falls in line with the Databook; Raikage is inferior, but generally comparable to Minato. Thus, Naruto needed to be completely at Minato's level to surpass A.



 He wasn't there yet because he couldn't control his speed, something he overcame against Raikage.

 KCM Naruto only needed to be at Minato's level to replicate Minato's feat, which was evading Raikage's punch point-blank and flickering a large distance afterwards. The whole situation revolved around Naruto replicating Minato's performance and in order to be able to do that, he had to be on the "Yellow Flash's" level.


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## Csdabest (Dec 21, 2015)

Hebi Sasuke was capable of dodging Amaterasu Similiar to v2 Raikage. Minato was bearly faster than Jounin Ei without Hirashin. Honestly if you asked me whos faster between Ei and Minato w/o Hirashin I would Say Ei.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The Sharingan is how Sasuke was able to avoid A's strike, but the reason A was hit is because Kishimoto wanted to display A's freakish durability by having him laugh off Chidori. If the point was to hype Sasuke's speed, then he would have had A compliment Sasuke's speed, not Chidori's power.
> 
> That is only my opinion, of course. This cannot be proven either way.



I don't think Sasuke's speed needed to be emphasized further with words, Kishimoto drew the whole thing in detail, show the sharingan precog in work. 

Like I said, if you want to go there, then you may as well say that A missed on purpose.


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## OutlawJohn (Dec 21, 2015)

Minato is leagues above pre-EMS Sasuke in reactions and Shushin. Not sure how the argument can be made otherwise.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 21, 2015)

Thats completely baseless.


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## Rocky (Dec 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't think Sasuke's speed needed to be emphasized further with words, Kishimoto drew the whole thing in detail, show the sharingan precog in work.
> 
> Like I said, if you want to go there, then you may as well say that A missed on purpose.



Then why would he emphasize A's durability further with words? We got a panel dedicated to Chidori failing just as we got one of the Sharingan going to work.

I'm not sure why that means that A missed on purpose. He was fine with ramming Elbow into Chidori and breaking Sasuke's hand, but Sasuke engaged with the "counter-punch" mindset. He didn't need to bother with dodging the Chidori once Sasuke ducked him _because he didn't think it was going to do anything to him._ He didn't evade Sasuke's sword like ten seconds before that for the same reason, lol.


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## OutlawJohn (Dec 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats completely baseless.



1) Minato's reaction against A is superior to any of Sasuke's reaction feats pre-EMS.
2) Minato reacting to an already detonated exploding tag is greater than Sasuke reaction feat pre-EMS.
3) Minato's using Shunshin to get from Obito to Kakashi when Kakashi was just inches from death despite there being seemingly upwards of 100 meters between them is greater than any of Sasuke's Shunshin feats pre-EMS.
4) Minato using Shunshin to get from Kushina to Naruto before Obito could split Naruto in half is greater than Sasuke Shunshin feat pre-EMS.
5) Minato escaping an expanding explosion is massively hypersonic and far superior to any Sasuke speed feat pre-EMS.
7) KCM Naruto's Shunshin was compared to Minato's. Is Hebi Sasuke faster than KCM Naruto? Was I smoking dope when I read this manga?
6) Minato being outright stated as faster than Tobirama, by Tobirama, is better hype than Sasuke pre-EMS ever got for speed.

How is this a debate? Why are we comparing an, at best, mid-level Kage ninja who got consistently out-sped by a sick Itachi to the fastest character in the manga before the introduction of the God-tiers?


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Then why would he emphasize A's durability further with words? We got a panel dedicated to Chidori failing just as we got one of the Sharingan going to work.
> 
> I'm not sure why that means that A missed on purpose. He was fine with ramming Elbow into Chidori and breaking Sasuke's hand, but Sasuke engaged with the "counter-punch" mindset. He didn't need to bother with dodging the Chidori once Sasuke ducked him _because he didn't think it was going to do anything to him._ He didn't evade Sasuke's sword like ten seconds before that for the same reason, lol.



 Makes me wonder why KN0 Naruto couldn't just Shunshin away from 3T Sasuke's punch despite Sasuke's movements appearing in slow-motion. 

 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Then why would he emphasize A's durability further with words? We got a panel dedicated to Chidori failing just as we got one of the Sharingan going to work.


There is no correlation between chidori failing to do any significant damage and A taking it willingly.
If you think there is a correlation, then you can say this : Anytime an attacks fails to deals the intended damage, the target got hit willingly.
In that case, I am sure Sandaime/Kabuto got willingly hit by FRS. 



> * He didn't need to bother with dodging the Chidori once Sasuke ducked him because he didn't think it was going to do anything to him. *He didn't evade Sasuke's sword like ten seconds before that for the same reason, lol.


And for the 12417th time, bold is fanfiction.
Where was it implied(it clearly isn't shown) that A could dodge it but chose not to ?

If he had the reaction speed to evade chidori, then I am pretty sure he had the reaction speed to course correct and ram his elbow into Sasuke's face. 
The whole point of that encounter is to show that Sasuke is capable of outmanuvering him and not being able to hurt him. Sasuke's manueverability and A'd durability are two seperate things.



OutlawJohn said:


> 1) Minato's reaction against A is superior to any of Sasuke's reaction feats pre-EMS.
> 2) Minato reacting to an already detonated exploding tag is greater than Sasuke reaction feat pre-EMS.
> 3) Minato's using Shunshin to get from Obito to Kakashi when Kakashi was just inches from death despite there being seemingly upwards of 100 meters between them is greater than any of Sasuke's Shunshin feats pre-EMS.
> 4) Minato using Shunshin to get from Kushina to Naruto before Obito could split Naruto in half is greater than Sasuke Shunshin feat pre-EMS.
> ...



Sasuke reacted to V2 A too, from a closer distance. Your whole argument falls apart in the first sentence of your post.


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## OutlawJohn (Dec 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke reacted to V2 A too, from a closer distance. Your whole argument falls apart in the first sentence of your post.



1st) Have you read the title of this thread? *Hebi Sasuke*. Hebi Sasuke  = MS Sasuke since when? Please, enlighten  me.

2) The statement you made is false in lots of ways.
a) Raikage had to move around Amaterasu and get behind Sasuke to attack him. I'm sure that middle school geography taught you that the fastest way from any two points is a straight line.
b) Minato physically reacted to the Raikage, despite being clearly surprised by his initial movement, by throwing a kunai when while a fist was just seconds from his face. All Sasuke had time to do was active Kagatsuchi because he was so confused he knew it was the only way to save himself.​
Good job avoiding all of my statements to make false one. Even MS Sasuke isn't in Minato's league reaction and speed wise yet we're comparing Hebi Sasuke to Minato.


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## Rocky (Dec 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is no correlation between chidori failing to do any significant damage and A taking it willingly [...] In that case, I am sure Sandaime/Kabuto got willingly hit by FRS.



The 3rd Raikage actually attempted to evade Rasenshuriken, and he succeeded in doing so twice. We've actually got confirmation that he did not want to get hit with that bad boy. Do we have confirmation of A trying to flicker away from Chidori? 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Where was it implied that A could dodge it but chose not to?



He can see Sasuke's movements rather easily with his super reflexes, and he's way faster than Sasuke, so all he'd have to do is use Shunshin as soon as Sasuke ducks. He'd get his body out of the way (just like he did with Amaterasu) before Sasuke could extend Chidori into him. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> If he had the reaction speed to evade chidori, then I am pretty sure he had the reaction speed to course correct and ram his elbow into Sasuke's face.



His elbow was already past Sasuke, so I don't know how he was going to do that...



Grimmjowsensei said:


> The whole point of that encounter is to show that Sasuke is capable of outmanuvering him and not being able to hurt him. Sasuke's manueverability and A'd durability are two seperate things.



"The whole point of the scene" arguments are nothing more than opinion. I've shared mine, and you have a different one. That's cool, but I'm not concerned with it. I'm concerned with what A can and cannot do.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The 3rd Raikage actually attempted to evade Rasenshuriken, and he succeeded in doing so twice. We've actually got confirmation that he did not want to get hit with that bad boy. Do we have confirmation of A trying to flicker away from Chidori?


Absence of evidence is not evidence. It really pisses me off when BD vets fall back on that shitty argument.

I think it is safe to make the argument "if he could, then he fucking would" here. 

Because again, going back to Sandaime's instance, if he could avoid FRS the 3rd time then he would avoid it no ? 
A's situation was more akin to Sandaime's 3rd attempt. He got outmanuvered and hit.



> He can see Sasuke's movements rather easily with his super reflexes, and he's way faster than Sasuke, so all he'd have to do is use Shunshin as soon as Sasuke ducks. He'd get his body out of the way (just like he did with Amaterasu) before Sasuke could extend Chidori into him.


It was too late. He was lunging forward with that momentum with the intention of hitting Sasuke, and Sasuke ducked in the last second and hit him. A wouldn'T be able to redirect all that momentum into a different direction without coming to a stop.


> His elbow was already past Sasuke, so I don't know how he was going to do that...


So you are agreeing that laws of physics didn't allow him to course correct his elbow and hit Sasuke.
Now agree that he couldn't move away because of the same laws of physics.




> "The whole point of the scene" arguments are nothing more than opinion. I've shared mine, and you have a different one. That's cool, but I'm not concerned with it. I'm concerned with what A can and cannot do.



Sasuke outmanuvers Raikage with sharingan precog and lands a hit on him, and later on we see that his strike can't get past Raikage's defense.
This is not an opinion, it is a fact.


edit : 



OutlawJohn said:


> 1st) Have you read the title of this thread? *Hebi Sasuke*. Hebi Sasuke  = MS Sasuke since when? Please, enlighten  me.


Are you impling that MS Sasuke is faster than Hebi Sasuke ? 
If thats the case, then you can tell what caused him to get faster without any kind of training, or implication or demonstration ? 



> 2) The statement you made is false in lots of ways.
> a) Raikage had to move around Amaterasu and get behind Sasuke to attack him. I'm sure that middle school geography taught you that the fastest way from any two points is a straight line.
> b) Minato physically reacted to the Raikage, despite being clearly surprised by his initial movement, by throwing a kunai when while a fist was just seconds from his face. All Sasuke had time to do was active Kagatsuchi because he was so confused he knew it was the only way to save himself.​



It doesn't change the fact that Raikage was 3 meters away from Sasuke and was at least 8 meters away from Minato. Even if he circled behind, the distance he had to cross wouldn't be much bigger than 8 meters. Add in the fact that Sasuke was preoccupied with casting a jutsu, his feat is more or less equal to Minato's. 

Additionally, Sasuke percieved A move to the side as soon as he did by turning his head : 3 
Some may call that "reacting."



> Good job avoiding all of my statements to make false one. Even MS Sasuke isn't in Minato's league reaction and speed wise yet we're comparing Hebi Sasuke to Minato.



Your statements are all flawed though, I dont need to pick apart all of them. Just taking apart 1 brings down the whole argument. Why would I waste my time ?


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## Rocky (Dec 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Absence of evidence is not evidence.



No shit. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> It really pisses me off when BD vets fall back on that shitty argument.



"Absence of evidence" is not an argument at all. Quite the contrary...



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think it is safe to make the argument "if he could, then he fucking would" here.



No. No confirmation that A wanted to evade Chidori. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because again, going back to Sandaime's instance, if he could avoid FRS the 3rd time then he would avoid it no?



He couldn't. Naruto was too close apparently. We know he couldn't, because he making a clear effort to _not_ get hit by Rasenshuriken. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> It was too late. He was lunging forward with that momentum with the intention of hitting Sasuke, and Sasuke ducked in the last second and hit him. A wouldn'T be able to redirect all that momentum into a different direction without coming to a stop.



Nah. Pivot on the plant foot and adjust last second, before the Chidori lands. [1][2]



Grimmjowsensei said:


> So you are agreeing that laws of physics didn't allow him to course correct his elbow and hit Sasuke. Now agree that he couldn't move away because of the same laws of physics.



The laws of physics don't prevent him from moving after throwing a strike. Shunshin isn't your typical sprint anyway. How many people have you seen instantly accelerate to top speeds moving directly sidewise? 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke outmanuvers Raikage with sharingan precog and lands a hit on him, and later on we see that his strike can't get past Raikage's defense. This is not an opinion, it is a fact.



That part is fact. That doesn't mean that Raikage was incapable of dodging. Sasuke ramming his lightning-flow sword into Raikage's neck is likewise fact, but that doesn't mean that Raikage is incapable of dodging that either.


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## Rocky (Dec 21, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I agree. Doesn't imply he could've simply Shunshin'd away to avoid Sasuke's strike or else he would've done so against Minato because he clearly anticipated Minato, but couldn't do anything about it because he was still caught in his speed/ attack.



I don't know what you mean by:



> because he clearly anticipated Minato, but couldn't do anything about it because he was still caught in his speed/ attack.



The only time A failed to do anything was when Minato instantly teleported away from his fastest punch. After that, _A was planning on adjusting to Minato's last second counter._

What Raikage Was Going To Do vs. Minato

Raikage swings at Minato.
Minato uses Hiraishin last-minute.
Raikage uses Shunshin to go meet Minato at Kunai.

What Raikage Could Have Done vs. Sasuke

Raikage swings at Sasuke.
Sasuke ducks last-minute.
Raikage used Shunshin to dodge incoming Chidori.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Dec 21, 2015)

Minato dusts sasuke in shunshin, it isn't even close. Even sick itachi was faster than him.

The hype from hiruzen and tobirama over minatos shunshin speaks volumes. If that's not enough, the databook categorically states that the fourth raikages raiton chakra mode is said to be as fast as minato.  

He's on a completely different level.

Also I can't remember who said it, but someone made a very intelligent post on shunshin speed vs movement speed and brought up excellent manga examples. Shunshin will always trump someone's strike speed.. Nice to see starwanderer can still bs talk his way out of anything.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 21, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Minato dusts sasuke in shunshin, it isn't even close. Even sick itachi was faster than him.
> 
> The hype from hiruzen and tobirama over minatos shunshin speaks volumes. If that's not enough, the databook categorically states that the fourth raikages raiton chakra mode is said to be as fast as minato.
> 
> He's on a completely different level.



 Well, Sick Itachi is faster than Minato.


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## Vice (Dec 21, 2015)

>faster than Minato 
>can't dodge rigged shuriken 

Nice fanfiction.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> No shit.
> 
> 
> 
> "Absence of evidence" is not an argument at all. Quite the contrary...


But thats what you are attempting to use here.

In an instance where a character gets outmanuvered and hit, your counter argument is : "where is it stated or shown that A couldn't avoid it ?"
Well we saw what happened, and no further explanation is given. You are asking for something that isn't there and using that as an excuse to justify your reasoning.

You are trying to use absence of evidence as evidence.



> No. No confirmation that A wanted to evade Chidori.


Confirmation is the hit landing on him.
Where is it implied that he could avoid it if he wanted to ? 


> He couldn't. Naruto was too close apparently. We know he couldn't, because he making a clear effort to _not_ get hit by Rasenshuriken.


He made the effort because he could. Like anyone else who would be targeted by an offensive attack.



> Nah. Pivot on the plant foot and adjust last second, before the Chidori lands. [1][2]


It was too late, He attempted to hit Sasuke with his elbow and he missed. 
Sort of like how Naruto waited till the last second and outmanuvered Sandaime Raikage and hit him. 
If A wanted for his elbow to land, he had to go all the way, making it impossible for him to evade a counter hit.



> The laws of physics don't prevent him from moving after throwing a strike. Shunshin isn't your typical sprint anyway. How many people have you seen instantly accelerate to top speeds moving directly sidewise?


Shunshin doesn't work against laws of physics. A was lunging towards Sasuke, and he had every intention to complete his movement. He thrusted his elbow and Sasuke dodged and landed a hit. He outmanuvered Raikage, fair and square.



> That part is fact. That doesn't mean that Raikage was incapable of dodging. Sasuke ramming his lightning-flow sword into Raikage's neck is likewise fact, but that doesn't mean that Raikage is incapable of dodging that either.



He would dodge it if he was capable of doing it. 
It would be similar to this : directly sidewise?
But instead, his strike got dodged and he got hit. 

If you think he had the capability of avoiding sasuke's chidori, then you are pretty much arguing that he missed his elbow on purpose.



Vice said:


> >faster than Minato
> >can't dodge rigged shuriken
> 
> Nice fanfiction.



Minato can't dodge a piece of wood : directly sidewise?


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 21, 2015)

Vice said:


> >faster than Minato
> >can't dodge rigged shuriken
> 
> Nice fanfiction.



 So Minato is only faster than Death-bed Itachi who was extremely fatigued after Tsukyomi.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 21, 2015)

Rocky;54923911

The only time A failed to do anything was when Minato instantly teleported away from his fastest punch. After that said:
			
		

> A was planning on adjusting to Minato's last second counter.[/I]



this

 He glared back at him and there was no expression of shock compared to here:

 Link removed

 Of course, the reason he couldn't evade Minato's attack is because he believed he would hit Minato and so he lunged at him at high speed. Because Raikage couldn't redirect his momentum and was still caught in his Shunshin, Raikage was unable to dodge.

 Same situation here. Raikage's speed is hyped to the point where with Raiton manipulation, his speed is difficult to follow, even for those with Precognitive abilities. That aligns perfectly to the idea that Raikage didn't expect him to evade his strike and so he still continued his strike without preparing himself to redirect his momentum.

 And what further emphasizes my point is this:

 Link removed

 Raikage attacked with the expectation of hitting Sasuke, but Sasuke clearly evaded ahead of time. After Sasuke's Chidori clashed with Raikage, Raikage's elbow clearly shifted to where Sasuke would have been if he hadn't evaded it, meaning Raikage still continued his strike and that aligns perfectly with the idea that he believed he would hit Sasuke.


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