# Joker vs Freddy Kreuger



## vampiredude (Oct 29, 2012)

Both are in their latest comic book incarnation.

The clown prince of crime is sleeping, so the battle starts in the dreamworld.

Who wins?

Edit: also can a mod please move this to the comic section. Sorry, my bad.


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## Bullbob (Oct 29, 2012)

Why move it to the comics.s section??? Freddy is a movie character originally...


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## vampiredude (Oct 29, 2012)

I'll leave the edit for now, then a mod can decide what she/he does from there. 

Now Discuss! My own personal view is that the Joker is too mentally unstable to be affected by Freddy's fear inducing shennanigans.


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## Expelsword (Oct 29, 2012)

Can't Freddy just murder him?


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## vampiredude (Oct 29, 2012)

In real world it depends, probably not?

But the question is if his dream powers are at the same level as the specters mindprobing capabilites? or the maritans?


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## Shoddragon (Oct 29, 2012)

vampiredude said:


> In real world it depends, probably not?
> 
> But the question is if his dream powers are at the same level as the specters mindprobing capeabilites? or the maritans?




in one of the Freddy's movies he goes into the mind of a dude.

That guy starts tapping into the fact the it's HIS dream and becomes a super hero and proceeds to shit all over freddy.

Freddy then laughs and becomes super freddy and overwhelms him in his own dream. Fear may give freddy a lot of his power but once he actually has his power.... well.... you're fucked. the only ways he's been beaten is by forcibly dragging him into the human world.


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## vampiredude (Oct 29, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> in one of the Freddy's movies he goes into the mind of a dude.
> 
> That guy starts tapping into the fact the it's HIS dream and becomes a super hero and proceeds to shit all over freddy.
> 
> Freddy then laughs and becomes super freddy and overwhelms him in his own dream. Fear may give freddy a lot of his power but once he actually has his power.... well.... you're fucked. the only ways he's been beaten is by forcibly dragging him into the human world.


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## Huey Freeman (Oct 29, 2012)

Freddy will die, Joker sanity will stomp him badly.


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## Luna (Oct 29, 2012)

I'd say that Freddy takes this.


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## JoJo (Oct 29, 2012)

unless joker doesnt get scared and can over-whelm him i see joker winning


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## Tom Servo (Oct 30, 2012)

vampiredude said:


> Both are in their latest comic book incarnation.
> 
> *The clown prince of crime is sleeping*, so the battle starts in the dreamworld.
> 
> ...



and the match is over before it begins


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## DarkLord Omega (Oct 30, 2012)

Lmao Freddy wins, in dream world he never loses unless you take him to the real world


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## Norrin04 (Oct 30, 2012)

Granted this is Pre-52 Joker but Raven makes his most torturous nightmares come to life around him and he just finds it funny,also seems to mess her up as well.


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## Huey Freeman (Oct 30, 2012)

Yeah, Freddy never loses unless he meets someone who has a strong mind and what do you know Joker has feats of resisting Telepaths. In a mental fight Joker shows him how pathetic of a serial killer Freddy is in comparison to himself .


Seriously Joker stomps


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## Shoddragon (Oct 30, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> Yeah, Freddy never loses unless he meets someone who has a strong mind and what do you know Joker has feats of resisting Telepaths. In a mental fight Joker shows him how pathetic of a serial killer Freddy is in comparison to himself .
> 
> 
> Seriously Joker stomps




except this isn't a mental fight. this is a fight in the dream world where freddy reigns.

Attacking someone mentally with mind powers and entering someones dreams ( where you have control) are two extremely different things. Freddy has even shown the ability to overpower someone's ability to grant themselves whatever they want in their dream ( as seen in the video I just posted).

I see you didn't watch many of the movies either. Freddy always loses because he suffers from what most movie villains suffer from: "I'm gonna fuck around with these bitches instead of kill them the second I get the opportunity syndrome" which leads to him being dragged into the real world where he has little to none of his powers.

Joker being able to "stomp" freddy in the dream realm is nothing short of fucking hilarious ( pun not intended).


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## Platinum (Oct 30, 2012)

Joker only fears the creeper .

He laughs at Freddy.


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## Huey Freeman (Oct 30, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> .



Get your no limit fallacy out of here. He reigns supreme why he has trouble with regular teens ? Guess all his movie and his mytho is filled with PIS huh? 

In case you miss the scan above my post Joker had his worst nightmares presented to him on more than one occasion on a much higher scale than what Freddy could ever hope to do. And all Joker does is bask in it and laughs. Freddy gets rape by far superior mind.


Freddy dream manipulation stronger than Raven . Now that is funny.


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## Tom Servo (Oct 30, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> Get your no limit fallacy out of here. He reigns supreme why he has trouble with regular teens ? Guess all his movie and his mytho is filled with PIS huh?
> 
> In case you miss the scan above my post Joker had his worst nightmares presented to him on more than one occasion on a much higher scale than what Freddy could ever hope to do. And all Joker does is bask in it and laughs. Freddy gets rape by far superior mind.
> 
> ...



Freddy doesn't have to torture him to death he could just drop him in a dream volcano or some shit its not like Joker really has anything to permanaently kill freddy or annihilate him even if he goes to sleep with his cyanide pies which is bizarre even by joker standards


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## Shoddragon (Oct 30, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> Get your no limit fallacy out of here. He reigns supreme why he has trouble with regular teens ? Guess all his movie and his mytho is filled with PIS huh?
> 
> In case you miss the scan above my post Joker had his worst nightmares presented to him on more than one occasion on a much higher scale than what Freddy could ever hope to do. And all Joker does is bask in it and laughs. Freddy gets rape by far superior mind.
> 
> ...




1. I never claimed anything that would be a NLF. I said it's a realm where freddy reigns. It's called PIS. Freddy dicks around a lot and winds up getting pulled into the *real world* where he has *LITTLE TO NO POWERS.* even then it generally takes extensive planning with the use of alarms or someone to wake the other person up just so they can drag him into the real world. If he wasn't limited by plot he could do what he did in the video and just become something like "super freddy" and kill everyone in their dreams but that would make for a pretty short movie, no?

2. Having your worst nightmares presented to you is not the same as being in a dream world where a person can bend that reality and give themselves super powers and can permanently kill you in real life by killing you in that dream. I can't believe you are making such an association fallacy and thinking this is an acceptable form of evidence. Freddy pins the joker against a wall of nails and then slices his head off. you know what the joker can do in the dream world to prevent this? not a god damn thing because in the dream world freddy>you.

3. first off, nice strawman. I never claimed freddy to be superior to raven so stuff it. secondly, making someone experience their own nightmares and flat out killing someone in their dream realm ( which would kill them in the real world because of freddy's powers) aren't the same thing. Just face it, they have nothing to do with each other.


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## Huey Freeman (Oct 30, 2012)

In order for Freddy to harm anyone he needs to be in charge and the only way he can assume control is if his victim is scared and not trying to fight him with will power. This is seen in all his movies. Every single time in order to bring him to the real world and in even some cases they turn his own game right back at him. 
Joker doesn't have this problem. Freddy won't be leaving Joker mind and he would be for tortured.


It is no limit fallacy because what next you going to tell me Dr. Doom who resisted purple man with will power will be rape by Freddy because Freddy control the dream world. Please he has no feats of handling such strong minds and infact in dream warriors it is clear that ordinary people can will themselves to the point they can fight his powers and look how Jason just laugh off his nightmare before Freddy found his fear.


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## Strange of Eternity (Oct 30, 2012)

Once you see just how insanely difficult is to fuck with Joker's mind(Freddy depends on fear), well, Freddy aint out for a picnick.
He's so fucking insane that fucks up  Hal Spectre and separates and jokerizes his Parallax side, so, make of that what you want.

*Spoiler*: __


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## Huey Freeman (Oct 30, 2012)

Freddy supporters in this thread clearly never read anything related to Joker.


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## King Diablo (Oct 30, 2012)

Freddy would shit his pants and die after entering jokers dreamworld.


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## FireEel (Oct 30, 2012)

Actually it depends on whether it is a world created by Joker, or Freddy.

If Freddy was to say, enter Joker's dreams by Joker's rules, then Freddy is gonna die a horrible death.

If Freddy said, dropped Joker into a dream on Freddy's terms, he could very well turn Joker into an ordinary sane human. I remember Freddy doing it to defeat Jason, by reverting Jason back into a boy.


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## Huey Freeman (Oct 30, 2012)

Jason was reverting to a boy because Freddy exploited his fear of drowning which was PiS on Jason part considering he goes swimming every other sequel. Please tell me per say what exactly Freddy is going to exploit for Joker? Exactly he has shit against a guy who finds being tortured fun. 

Lot of people don't understand Freddy as to why he goes after teens and specifically uses nightmares.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Oct 30, 2012)

Platinum said:


> Joker only fears the creeper .
> 
> He laughs at Freddy.


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTkoMQZjCHY[/YOUTUBE]


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## Saitou Hajime (Oct 30, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> Jason was reverting to a boy because Freddy exploited his fear of drowning which was PiS on Jason part considering he goes swimming every other sequel.



Freddy can pervert benign as well as malignant aspects of his prey's psyche. Like how in part 3 he killed one kid by exploiting his hobby for puppetry.


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## I3igAl (Oct 30, 2012)

This problem is to enter someone's dreams (and to appear to people in the first place) Freddy needs his victims to be afraid of him. 

Joker shure as hell won't. Ergo a scenario, where Freddy haunts Jokers dreams wouldn't occur in the first place.

Since this takes place in the dream world the scenario cannot be solved, people might say Freddies powers in the dreamworld might be dependend on his victims fears(and lack of willpowers) too or they might say, that's just Freddy dicking around with his victims. If his dream control is mind based or just reality warping inside some mystic dreamspace we might never know.


I'd like to see Joker exploiting Freddies fear of fire though.


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## Irrational Destroyer (Oct 30, 2012)

It is explicitly shown in Freddy vs. Jason that Freddy needs the fear of his opponents to have his power and to control their dreams, otherwise he just can't. Jason was kicking him in the rear for example until Freddy discovered he had a fear of water (although that might as well be just Freddy screwing around and he could have turned the tables whenever he wanted to), also since Freddy is entering into the mind of an already sleeping Joker, wouldn't that mean that he has to confront the Joker's dreams which most likely would drive him insane?


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Oct 30, 2012)

Joker wins. His mind is quite a fucked up place, not to mention Krueger was struggling beating a teen girl, even in the dream :ho

On a side note, Pennywise rapes both


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## Shoddragon (Oct 30, 2012)

FireEel said:


> Actually it depends on whether it is a world created by Joker, or Freddy.
> 
> If Freddy was to say, enter Joker's dreams by Joker's rules, then Freddy is gonna die a horrible death.
> 
> If Freddy said, dropped Joker into a dream on Freddy's terms, he could very well turn Joker into an ordinary sane human. I remember Freddy doing it to defeat Jason, by reverting Jason back into a boy.




that is false. most of the time freddy invades someone's dream world and fucks them up. he did it to jason and was bouncing him around like a pinball with a mere gesture.

Guess what? Jason wasn't scared of him. at all.

the reason jason started whooping ass was ( besides being superhuman to a degree so far above joker it isn't even funny) because once again, freddy started dicking around.


having a "fucked up mind" is not at all a defense against someone who has a power that revolves around being able to control dreams.

oh damn look, nothing about him only being able to kill people if they are scared of him:



Freddy would have to be in an insanely weak incarnation of himself to lose to joker in the dream world and I mean so weak we are talking beginning of Freddy v Jason where Freddy had to resurrect jason so that people could fear him again and he could get enough power to escape from hell.


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## Huey Freeman (Oct 30, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> that is false. most of the time freddy invades someone's dream world and fucks them up. he did it to jason and was bouncing him around like a pinball with a mere gesture.
> 
> Guess what? Jason wasn't scared of him. at all.
> 
> ...




Using a wiki as your source a FAN base wiki? 

So you believe Freddy is unbeatable by anyone in the dream world? There is that no limit fallacy. There is no what if in this. 
Freddy is afraid of fire, he have exploited by this in every damn movie. Freddy has been pulled out of his dream world by people willing themselves against him. This has been seen in his entire franchise. There is no such fucking thing as PIS here since it is consistent with all his movies. Freddy has never and I do mean never go after people who he knows will have a chance of fucking him over in the dream world hence why he specifically targets Teens.  



Yeah I have yet to see you show me a scan of Freddy conquering a guy who has face actual reality warpers and Telepaths *who can do what Freddy do casually without the need of his victims to be scared or sleeping. 

*

Oh gee lookie here another wiki source that explains his powers differently guess this is more legit then.





> Powers and abilities E
> 
> 
> Freddy can enter the dreams of anyone on Elm Street in Springwood (*provided that there is enough fear of him*), and whatever injuries he inflicts on them in the dream world will appear on them in the real world. This is how he kills his victims. He usually uses his clawed glove, but often manipulates the dream world around him, usually in accordance to a person's personality or fears. (For example, he turns Debbie, who hates bugs, into a cockroach and crushes her; injects Taryn, who has a history of abusing drugs, with heroin; smashes Jennifer's face against the TV, when Jennifer wanted to be an actress and appear on TV). He cannot be killed while he is in the dream world. In the dream world he has displayed various capabilities which include the ability to regenerate back lost body parts, shapeshifting and telekinetic powers, in the real world he has enhanced physical capabilities and is quite adept with his metal claws and can withstand an incredible amount of damage that no living human can take.



Dont bring wiki as backup here cause I can do it too .


PS. Anything brings back Jason like a guy eating his heart or him conveniently get struck with a metal pole and struck by lightning. That is no feat.  He was clearly not dicking around with Jason as you can see he was completely shocked at Jason fears when he first discovered it stating he does not control everything in his own nightmares. He exploits fears that was and is his powers.


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## Shoddragon (Oct 30, 2012)

1. there we go with the strawman again. I never said freddy is unbeatable in the dream world but Joker ( albeit with a fucked up mind) is just a human. he doesn't have some kind of special powers in the dream world like freddy. this thread is titled "joker vs freddy krueger", not "can freddy make joker feel fear?". would you like to tell me what is weakness to fire has to do with anything? oh that's right, not a god damn thing . Him being pulled out of dreams has to do with the fact that he often "plays with his food" before he kills them and so winds up falling into a trap set by a group of people ( like I said.... often using alarms to wake themselves up or something) that brings him out of the dream world.

2. If you can show me the joker being killed in a dream where it would kill him in real life and he survives I'll gladly concede. but you haven't so I won't. In the Dream world freddy has plenty of powers and can overpower someone's ability to controls their dream surroundings and such, EVEN IN THEIR OWN DREAMS.  Joker laughing because raven was making him experience his worst nightmares has NOTHING to do with freddy's ability to kill joker in the dream world. not a single thing.  STOP MAKING ASSOCIATION FALLACIES.

3. I posted a wiki link because it describes some of his powers with references to which movies they occurred in ( such as how at the peak of his power he could affect the real world and even drag people into the dream realm) and to also show that fear isn't the only thing that gives him power. He also gets power from souls.

btw, using your wiki link on powers and abilities, it says "He cannot be killed while he is in the dream world." meaning joker could literally never win in the dream world. so good job shooting yourself in the foot.


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## Kage no Yume (Oct 30, 2012)

Irrational Destroyer said:


> It is explicitly shown in Freddy vs. Jason that Freddy needs the fear of his opponents to have his power and to control their dreams, otherwise he just can't. Jason was kicking him in the rear for example until Freddy discovered he had a fear of water (although that might as well be just Freddy screwing around and he could have turned the tables whenever he wanted to), *also since Freddy is entering into the mind of an already sleeping Joker, wouldn't that mean that he has to confront the Joker's dreams which most likely would drive him insane?*



This.  Game, set, and match.  Freddy either digs out, loses his sanity, or decides to join forces with the Joker.


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## Huey Freeman (Oct 30, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> 1. there we go with the strawman again. I never said freddy is unbeatable in the dream world but Joker ( albeit with a fucked up mind) is just a human. he doesn't have some kind of special powers in the dream world like freddy. this thread is titled "joker vs freddy krueger", not "can freddy make joker feel fear?". would you like to tell me what is weakness to fire has to do with anything? oh that's right, not a god damn thing . Him being pulled out of dreams has to do with the fact that he often "plays with his food" before he kills them and so winds up falling into a trap set by a group of people ( like I said.... often using alarms to wake themselves up or something) that brings him out of the dream world.



First thing you should know before entering a thread here is know your opponent, you clearly have no fucking clue on who Joker is and what he is capable of. Joker has the damage soak and the mental capacity that far exceeds a human. No you dont need no special kind of powers just to beat  Freddy. 


Stop misusing the word strawman as you clearly cant tell the difference here. You stating Freddy has complete control is no limit fallacy period he doesnt. Freddy dead and Dream warriors prove that he doesnt. In fact you have no clue who Freddy is either. He feeds off his victims fear that is what is POWERING HIM. 



> Snip


You honestly believe Freddy ability is greater than what Raven  does.

You have no clue what you are talking about here.

Freddy kills them through mental trauma that is carries over to the real world.  Hence why he incite fears and attack them in his sleep. Oh look remember how some people are not always killed in his movies. You remember that there is no guarantee that he win in his own nightmares from ordinary Humans not  guys who are clearly super human in intelligence and will power. 

You remember him having trouble with a slightly superhuman zombie who has no intelligence but apparently a strong will to kill.

You remember his daughter turning his own fear against him.

Or in Dream Warriors 6 kids will themselves to the point they can combat him.






> 3. I posted a wiki link because it describes some of his powers with references to which movies they occurred in ( such as how at the peak of his power he could affect the real world and even drag people into the dream realm) and to also show that fear isn't the only thing that gives him power. He also gets power from souls.
> 
> btw, using your wiki link on powers and abilities, it says "He cannot be killed while he is in the dream world." meaning joker could literally never win in the dream world. so good job shooting yourself in the foot.



Read that wiki again , it says in clear as night that you can exploit his fear against fire against him. Or you can drag him out and kill him. I also proved that *HE ISNT SOME OMNIPOTENT DREAM LORD LIKE YOU ARE TRYING TO CONVEY HIM TO BE.*


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## Doge (Oct 30, 2012)

If Freddy was the dream lord as some speak of, there is no reason that any of the Nightmare on Elm Street films should have ended, or even hinted at, a protagonist success.

Joker has no weakness such as drowning.  He has no fear to exploit.  If that weren't the truth, Freddy wouldn't have any fights and would be in 100% control all the time because the victim's mind would be a non factor.


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## Bullbob (Oct 30, 2012)

I don't remember if Joker is rally afraid of the creeper in the comics like on the show. If he is afraid, then that may be Freddy's only chance of exploiting fear from him.


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## Johnny Kage (Oct 30, 2012)

Freddy is unbeatable in his world. Joker is murdered


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## Lurko (Oct 30, 2012)

Jokers is too fucking insane for freddy will want to kill himself after going in joker's mind.


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## Strange of Eternity (Oct 30, 2012)

People here seem to think Joker is a regular crazy serial killer, dont know where that notion came from, Joker has been constantly represented as resistant to mindfuckery, either in the form of mental control or anything else, under the reason that "he is crazy and fuck you".
So the notion taht Freddy will actually be able to take on Joker's mind through his dreams is pretty weak.
Some feats, that coppled with the ones already posted, demostrate how ridiculous the idea of Freddy taking on Joker is:
Joker no sells Scarecrow's fear gas:

*Spoiler*: __ 









Joker no sells a mindrape from a guy who mindrape and gave amnesia  to manhunter(no jon, the girl).

*Spoiler*: __ 









Another spectre feat, in this one Joker overcomes Spectre's invading and becomes the host for Spectre himself.(i already posted the Hal  era feat, this is jim corrigan spectre).

*Spoiler*: __


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 30, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> Joker being able to "stomp" freddy in the dream realm is nothing short of fucking hilarious ( pun not intended).



yeah the problem with that is a Greek god who specializes in mind raping tried to mind rape Joker and ended up fucked up beyond all recognition

powerful near Xavier level telepaths cannot handle his mind..these are people that would rape Freddy

for the love of god..even the Specter has problems with Jokers mind..the god damn Specter



DarkLord Omega said:


> Lmao Freddy wins, in dream world he never loses unless you take him to the real world



gods, Mystics powerful telepaths and the right hand of the presence..have problems with Joker

yet Freddy is going to magically win



Kazudriel said:


> I'd say that Freddy takes this.



Freddy walks in..takes a look around..and then slowly backs the fuck up and leaves


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## Emperor Joker (Oct 30, 2012)

I vaguely remember seeing this exact match here a year or two back actually. the general consensus was that Freddy ends up running away crying for his mother after getting a look at Joker's mind


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Oct 30, 2012)

Strange of Eternity said:


> People here seem to think Joker is a regular crazy serial killer, dont know where that notion came from, Joker has been constantly represented as resistant to mindfuckery, either in the form of mental control or anything else, under the reason that "he is crazy and fuck you".
> So the notion taht Freddy will actually be able to take on Joker's mind through his dreams is pretty weak.
> Some feats, that coppled with the ones already posted, demostrate how ridiculous the idea of Freddy taking on Joker is:
> Joker no sells Scarecrow's fear gas:
> ...


I don't see how you can contend this.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 30, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> I vaguely remember seeing this exact match here a year or two back actually. the general consensus was that Freddy ends up running away crying for his mother after getting a look at Joker's mind



It's a  Halloween classic match on this site for some reason we see it or a variation of it every year



projectcapsule said:


> I don't see how you can contend this.



you can't that scan has Joker no selling an attack from someone who pwned an Xavier level telepath

the entire dream demon clan that empowered Freddy's soul could back him up and he would still casually horribly stomp him and that would be one of his rated "PG" dreams


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## Qinglong (Oct 30, 2012)

Joker? The Joker who tricked a 5th dimension imp and makes supervillains legit terrified of him? Is going to lose to Freddy?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 30, 2012)

oh God, against the Spectre ? TWICE ?

................


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## Huey Freeman (Oct 30, 2012)

Freddy brags about killing about killing a few dozen people Joker laughs at his d list status.


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## Light Bringer (Oct 30, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Freddy walks in..takes a look around..and then slowly backs the fuck up and leaves



Most likely scenario.


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## Saitou Hajime (Oct 30, 2012)

I don't see where some people get the idea that Freddy is dependent on fear to have power. Fear empowers him, but it's not like he can't live without it or needs it to be able to function. The series has shown him thriving by perverting benign aspects of his preys' psyches every bit as much as he exploits their deepest fears. In Dream Master Freddy outright challenges a victim in his optimum dream scenario and bests him anyway. In Freddy's Dead Tracy fights through her fears, gets the better of Freddy while claiming dominion over her own dreams, only to be informed that she plays by Freddy's rules and she was to hurt herself to wake up and escape.


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## Qinglong (Oct 30, 2012)

There's nothing benign about Joker's psyche

x2 Spectre scans, thread should have ended there


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## Lurko (Oct 30, 2012)

Joker will laugh and tell freddy that he sucks compared to the bat.


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## Saitou Hajime (Oct 30, 2012)

Qinglong said:


> There's nothing benign about Joker's psyche



Not to any sane person, but certainly to the Joker himself. If he remotely enjoys anything, Freddy can work with it.


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## Strange of Eternity (Oct 30, 2012)

Saitou Hajime said:


> Not to any sane person, but certainly to the Joker himself. If he remotely enjoys anything, Freddy can work with it.



Freddy aint going to achieve what the right hand of the Presence failed to do, twice.


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## Qinglong (Oct 30, 2012)

The Joker enjoys finding a joke in pretty much everything

Freddy would end up as jokerized as Parallax


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## Saitou Hajime (Oct 30, 2012)

Strange of Eternity said:


> Freddy aint going to achieve what the right hand of the Presence failed to do, twice.



Spectre fought the Joker on the latter's home turf, once while the Joker was extraordinarily powered, the other when the Spectre was weakened. Freddy wouldn't be going to Joker's mind and soul (ala Inception), but rather his soul and mind would be going into a place where Freddy dictates the rules.


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## Huey Freeman (Oct 30, 2012)

Freddy is a dream manipulator nothing more. There is no realm of Freddy for fuck sakes. He is in the person dream. If a bunch of fucking partying teenagers got the better of him what the fuck you expect from a guy who is very capable to out thinking Bats. 

He does not rule the dream world if he did he could have killed the parents who killed him but yet he can't invade their dreams now can he?


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## Strange of Eternity (Oct 30, 2012)

Saitou Hajime said:


> Spectre fought the Joker on the latter's home turf, once while the Joker was extraordinarily powered, the other when the Spectre was weakened. Freddy wouldn't be going to Joker's mind and soul (ala Inception), *but rather his soul and mind would be going into a place where Freddy dictates the rules.*


Wich is? Freddy enters HIS victims dreams, remarking the part that he enters, not the other way around, he's no Mephisto or some shit like that.
And any day your most weak incarnation of Spectre would wreck Freddy, both mentally and in his soul, wich he can't do to Joker.
Really, is there a need for this thread to go on? 
No way Freddy is taking on Joker's mind.


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## Saitou Hajime (Oct 30, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> Freddy is a dream manipulator nothing more. There is no realm of Freddy for fuck sakes. He is in the person dream. If a bunch of fucking partying teenagers got the better of him what the fuck you expect from a guy who is very capable to out thinking Bats.
> 
> He does not rule the dream world if he did he could have killed the parents who killed him but yet he can't invade their dreams now can he?



As established in Dream Master Freddy's the negative gatekeeper that presides over nightmares, but in the absence of his positive counterpart (or rather, because of his greater power and experience), he has dominion over the whole dream world. IIRC that hasn't changed throughout the series.

What kids have gotten the best of him? The only one who hasn't ended up dead and escape him twice is Alice, the positive gatekeeper and even she needed DEMs to do it.

Why would he bother with the parents when its the kids he's interested in screwing with? Hell, he did better than kill them: by the time of Freddy's Dead all of their kids have been killed off while they themselves have been reduced to raving lunatics. Regardless, the same film (and even the TV series) showed that adults' souls/minds go to him every bit as much as children does.



Strange of Eternity said:


> Wich is? Freddy enters HIS victims dreams, remarking the part that he enters, not the other way around, he's no Mephisto or some shit like that.



Uh, yes he is. Freddy's Dead shows it more explicitly when John and Tracy bungle into his "office" and see him screwing with Spencer's dream which turned into a video game. And earlier in the film he outright tosses John out of the dream world and into reality, casually fixing the "tear" when he's done.


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## Strange of Eternity (Oct 30, 2012)

Saitou Hajime said:


> Uh, yes he is. Freddy's Dead shows it more explicitly when John and Tracy bungle into his "office" and see him screwing with Spencer's dream which turned into a video game. And earlier in the film he outright tosses John out of the dream world and into reality, casually fixing the "tear" when he's done.



No, he isn't. The Dream Demons give him power to enter the dreams of the people, they didn't make him the rules of the "dream world" or some shit like that, he's a simple and plain dream manipulator, and ahs always been just that.


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## Huey Freeman (Oct 30, 2012)

Freddy has domination over the dream world oh wait he can only haunt 1 specific street of 1 specific town. Sound legit to me guys.

When you got guys like Dr. Destiny who can do it on a planetary scale simultaneously not like Freddy who can only be in 1 dream at a time.


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## Saitou Hajime (Oct 30, 2012)

Strange of Eternity said:


> No, he isn't. The Dream Demons give him power to enter the dreams of the people, they didn't make him the rules of the "dream world" or some shit like that, he's a simple and plain dream manipulator, and ahs always been just that.



Uh no, Dream Master clearly establishes him as the negative gatekeeper of the dream world. Freddy's Dead just clarifies that it was the dream demons (agents of chaos who much with the lines between dreams and reality) who gave him that "job" as he put it. As I've said, being someone else's mind/soul/dream doesn't explain how the dream world is treated as an actual separate dimension like it is in the series.



Danger Doom said:


> Freddy has domination over the dream world oh wait he can only haunt 1 specific street of 1 specific town. Sound legit to me guys.
> 
> When you got guys like Dr. Destiny who can do it on a planetary scale simultaneously not like Freddy who can only be in 1 dream at a time.



By the time of Freddy's Dead he has killed off the entire child population of Springwood and then moved to outside world.

Being in only one dream at a time (assuming all the kills aren't happening simultaneously in a case of multiple dreamers ala Dream Warriors) seems to be a matter of preference rather a limitation, like say being unable to manipulate both dreams and reality simultaneously. Freddy's Dead showed he doesn't actually have to be in a victim's dream to screw with it and that he can interact with other dreamers while doing that.


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## Wasabifold (Oct 30, 2012)

I am looking at the evidence presented and all I can see is this......

This match is an ungodly stomp for the Joker. No joke. Going into joker's mind has been shown in this thread with many panels from many different instances to be a waste of time. Frankly, I can't believe you can look at this evidence and not come to the obvious conclusion.

Joker wins. Hands down. Freddy gets raped hard.


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## Huey Freeman (Oct 30, 2012)

Except you are wrong he needed his daughter too be able to haunt anyone outside of Springwood.


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## Saitou Hajime (Oct 30, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> Except you are wrong he needed his daughter too be able to haunt anyone outside of Springwood.



That's more of his existence being "bound" to Springwood and its citizens because of the personal nature of his death, and hence requiring an equally personal link to him to serve as his medium for escape. Regardless, there's no reason he should've still been empowered once he left Springwood if his influence really is limited to that town.



Wasabifold said:


> I am looking at the evidence presented and all I can see is this......
> 
> This match is an ungodly stomp for the Joker. No joke. *Going into joker's mind has been shown in this thread with many panels from many different instances to be a waste of time.* Frankly, I can't believe you can look at this evidence and not come to the obvious conclusion.
> 
> Joker wins. Hands down. Freddy gets raped hard.



Which would matter if Freddy was going into Joker's mind, but he's not.


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## sonic546 (Oct 30, 2012)

Are there people really saying that Freddy can fuck with the mind of a guy that literally laughed off an assault by fucking Spectre of all people? Are you fucking shitting me?


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## Wasabifold (Oct 30, 2012)

Saitou Hajime said:


> Which would matter if Freddy was going into Joker's mind, but he's not.





Dream, mind whatever you want to call it. Joker is gonna stomp over all of Freddy's shit. 

Regardless of what you think Freddy does, or where he takes you, the means to fight him have been shown in all movies is that you need the will and wherever you are (it's a dream, therefore mind, but since you say otherwise) you can power yourself with will to overcome him. Joker's mental psyche makes everyone in the entire Freddy series look like lightweights and the panels are there to show how fucked up his mind is. Honestly why should I even argue?

This is common sense. A very easy battle to call. Joker 11/10 times


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## Huey Freeman (Oct 31, 2012)

Not to mention people think what Freddy does is classified as reality warping .


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## sonic546 (Oct 31, 2012)

Saitou Hajime said:


> Which would matter if Freddy was going into Joker's mind, but he's not.



He's going into Joker's dream, which is a product of the mind.  And if you think Freddy is going to accomplish what fucking Spectre couldn't you deserve a swift kick to the groin.


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## Saitou Hajime (Oct 31, 2012)

Wasabifold said:


> Dream, mind whatever you want to call it. Joker is gonna stomp over all of Freddy's shit.
> 
> *Regardless of what you think Freddy does, or where he takes you, the means to fight him have been shown in all movies is that you need the will and wherever you are (it's a dream, therefore mind, but since you say otherwise) you can power yourself with will to overcome him.* Joker's mental psyche makes everyone in the entire Freddy series look like lightweights and the panels are there to show how fucked up his mind is. Honestly why should I even argue?
> 
> This is common sense. A very easy battle to call. Joker 11/10 times



The dream world in the NOES-verse is treated as its own reality where minds/souls go during sleep. It's all not just inside your head.

And as for the bolded part, no one has ever bested Freddy in the dream world with will power or forced empowerment and with few exceptions it always came down to some sort of DEM. As I've said the only one who has managed to survive Freddy twice is Alice, the positive gatekeeper (ie his Good Counterpart) and even she needed DEMs to pull it off.



sonic546 said:


> He's going into Joker's dream, which is a product of the mind.



To be more precise, Joker's mind will be constructing a dream (or Freddy builds it himself) in a dimension controlled by Freddy. We're not talking Inception here.



Danger Doom said:


> Not to mention people think what Freddy does is classified as reality warping .



What else would you call how Freddy killed the videogamer in Freddy's Dead?


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## Wasabifold (Oct 31, 2012)

Dimension controlled by freddy.......

Bro, Freddy doesn't create any dimension. Go back and watch the movies because you making up shit now. It's the running theme of the whole series that he enters *your* dreams.

PS

Even if it was a dimension where then people dreams went to, it doesn't change the fact that his weaknesses have been shown. Like I said, wherever you are, regular people have shown the ability to muster up power to overcome and defeat Freddy. He's not going to get any fear from Joker to use to his advantage. Joker would laugh any thing Freddy tried to do to invoke fear. Panels provided. And if teenagers can find a way to muster up some power in this "dimension", Joker would do it with utmost ease and stomp on Freddy.

This ain't even funny how little Freddy can do to Joker. I don't think you quite grasp the significance of the evidence there. All of it noone in that town would be able to replicate. Ever.


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## Saitou Hajime (Oct 31, 2012)

Wasabifold said:


> Dimension controlled by freddy.......
> 
> Bro, Freddy doesn't create any dimension. Go back and watch the movies because you making up shit now. It's the running theme of the whole series that he enters *your* dreams.



He doesn't "create" anything, the dimension already exists. As established in Dream Master and Freddy's Dead, the dream demons made him the negative gatekeeper of that dimension and is in charge of nightmares, and in the absence of the dream master/positive gatekeeper (or just because of greater power and experience), he assumed de facto control.



> _
> PS
> 
> Even if it was a dimension where then people dreams went to, it doesn't change the fact that his weaknesses have been shown. Like I said, wherever you are, regular people have shown the ability to muster up power to overcome and defeat Freddy. He's not going to get any fear from Joker to use to his advantage. Joker would laugh any thing Freddy tried to do to invoke fear. Panels provided. And if teenagers can find a way to muster up some power in this "dimension", Joker would do it with utmost ease and stomp on Freddy.
> _



Except what you keep reiterating has never happened in the movies. Teenagers get their licks in, they may even escape him once, but none have ever "overcome and defeated" him, no matter what powers or abilities they pulled out of their ass. It almost always came down to some DEM that's rendered useless by the next film. The only teen to elude him twice is the positive gatekeeper, who needed DEMs to do it.

And not just anyone can give themselves powers and abilities. It's explained in the series that those are innate to specific people, who possess such gifts in their dream avatars as a result of their traumatic experiences and upbringing.

And as I've said fear empowers Freddy, but he's not dependent on it. He could exploit a person's likes every bit as much their dislikes. He has even put them in their optimal environment in order to best them there.


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## Orochibuto (Oct 31, 2012)

FREDDY RAPES JOKER, HARD!














*Spoiler*: __ 



In the category of being raped thats it


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 31, 2012)

going by Saito Hajimes logic Freddy would be comparable to a marvel Fear lord...which he isn't

Xavier level teeps can't handle jokers mind..Freddy is garbage tier to them


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## Huey Freeman (Oct 31, 2012)

Saitou Hajime said:


> The dream world in the NOES-verse is treated as its own reality where minds/souls go during sleep. It's all not just inside your head.
> 
> And as for the bolded part, no one has ever bested Freddy in the dream world with will power or forced empowerment and with few exceptions it always came down to some sort of DEM. As I've said the only one who has managed to survive Freddy twice is Alice, the positive gatekeeper (ie his Good Counterpart) and even she needed DEMs to pull it off.
> 
> ...


Reality warping requires idk reality as in real world by your logic people who can project illusions are reality warpers or Telepaths who can do the same shot Freddy can do but better. 

He is not bending reality , he is manipulating their dream letting them think what is happening is real.


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## Saitou Hajime (Oct 31, 2012)

Danger Doom said:


> Reality warping requires idk reality as in real world by your logic people who can project illusions are reality warpers or Telepaths who can do the same shot Freddy can do but better.
> 
> He is not bending reality , he is manipulating their dream letting them think what is happening is real.



Freddy manipulates reality within the dream world, and blurs in the lines between the real world and the dream world. Illusion projection or mental manipulation wouldn't explain half of the phenomena that occurs in the series, like how other dreamers can see and interact with another dreamers' manipulated sub-reality (like in Freddy's Dead with the video gamer), the existence of the dream world as completely separate dimension where people can even be physically pulled into and ejected, Freddy's ability to loop time or space in the real world itself, or the various supernatural phenomena that happens to the dreamers' physical forms in the real world when Freddy manipulates their dream avatars.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> going by Saito Hajimes logic Freddy would be comparable to a marvel Fear lord...which he isn't
> 
> Xavier level teeps can't handle jokers mind..Freddy is garbage tier to them



It's not "my" logic, it's what the series says he is. Not quite the same scale, but same principle regardless.

And again, he's not going into Joker's mind.


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## Qinglong (Oct 31, 2012)

He's still trash tier to the shit Joker has laughed off


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## Wasabifold (Oct 31, 2012)

Regardless this battle takes place in the Joker's dream. That's how Freddy does his shit. So at the end of the day, your theory means shit since it is defined where he goes in the movies. Every movie. Case closed. 

Joker has intellect a thousand light years beyond all people in the Freddy movies, willpower the same level of difference, and one fucked up as ass mind that is too crazy to feel the fear for his greatest fears. This is all he needs to stomp on Freddy.


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## Saitou Hajime (Oct 31, 2012)

Wasabifold said:


> Regardless this battle takes place in the Joker's dream. That's how Freddy does his shit. So at the end of the day, your theory means shit since it is defined where he goes in the movies. Every movie. Case closed.
> 
> Joker has intellect a thousand light years beyond all people in the Freddy movies, willpower the same level of difference, and one fucked up as ass mind that is too crazy to feel the fear for his greatest fears. This is all he needs to stomp on Freddy.



Freddy doesn't "go" to his prey, they go to him. Yeah, it maybe Joker's dream, but it's built in a place where Freddy makes the rules. It's not "my theory", it's what explicitly stated in the series.

Like I said, Freddy doesn't need Joker to fear him to kill him. He can pervert the things he enjoys the most every bit as much as he can exploit his fears. He has bested people despite setting them up in their optimal dream battleground with their preferred skill/superpower.


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## Qinglong (Oct 31, 2012)

For the last time

If the Right Hand of The Presence couldn't fuck with The Joker (twice)

How the fuck is Freddy going to accomplish it


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## Wasabifold (Oct 31, 2012)

Still denying the fact that Joker has all the tools shown throughout the movies needed to overpower Freddy.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 31, 2012)

Strange of Eternity said:


> People here seem to think Joker is a regular crazy serial killer, dont know where that notion came from, Joker has been constantly represented as resistant to mindfuckery, either in the form of mental control or anything else, under the reason that "he is crazy and fuck you".
> So the notion taht Freddy will actually be able to take on Joker's mind through his dreams is pretty weak.
> Some feats, that coppled with the ones already posted, demostrate how ridiculous the idea of Freddy taking on Joker is:
> Joker no sells Scarecrow's fear gas:
> ...



Did he just hijack the fucking Spectre?


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## Saitou Hajime (Oct 31, 2012)

Qinglong said:


> For the last time
> 
> If the Right Hand of The Presence couldn't fuck with The Joker (twice)
> 
> How the fuck is Freddy going to accomplish it



The Spectre fought with the Joker in the latter's mind where he has dominion. Once while the Joker was boosted psychically, and another when the Spectre himself was weakened.

There will be none of that with Freddy. Joker would be the one going to a world where the opponent makes the rules, not the other way around. Now if you want to claim he can somehow pull Freddy into the real word and kill him there (which only happened twice in the entire series, once entirely by a fluke) I'd have no objections, but he's not besting him in the dream world.


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## Qinglong (Oct 31, 2012)

I don't think you know what The Spectre is capable of if you seriously just posted that

Even a weakened Spectre would roflstomp Freddy no lube

And you're saying Freddy could handle that


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## Wasabifold (Oct 31, 2012)

Saitou Hajime said:


> There will be none of that with Freddy. Joker would be the one going to a world where the opponent makes the rules, not the other way around. Now if you want to claim he can somehow pull Freddy into the real word and kill him there (which only happened twice in the entire series, once entirely by a fluke) I'd have no objections, but he's not besting him in the dream world.



Other people have bested him in the dream world. Your entire argument is invalid. And it is the mental capabilities of the people Freddy fights that is on test here. I don't know how many times you need it repeated to you, but you seem to be ignoring the fact that people best Freddy all the time by having the will to fight him and not succumb to fear. Regardless of what you think Freddy does, it has been shown in the movie that the power of the victim's mind is what is used to fight against Freddy. And I don't need to repeat how strong Joker's mind is. 

Please explain why teenagers can best Freddy in the dream world, but for some reason Joker cannot.


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## Saitou Hajime (Oct 31, 2012)

Qinglong said:


> I don't think you know what The Spectre is capable of if you seriously just posted that
> 
> Even a weakened Spectre would roflstomp Freddy no lube
> 
> And you're saying Freddy could handle that



Except it's more than just the Spectre weakened. Joker is psychically boosted in one instances, and both cases came down to Spectre losing because he's fighting on Joker's turf and playing by his rules. Are there any other instances where the Spectre got bested or had difficulties because he's fighting in a reality where the opponent dictated the rules?



Wasabifold said:


> Other people have bested him in the dream world. Your entire argument is invalid. And it is the mental capabilities of the people Freddy fights that is on test here. I don't know how many times you need it repeated to you, but you seem to be ignoring the fact that people best Freddy all the time by having the will to fight him and not succumb to fear. Regardless of what you think Freddy does, it has been shown in the movie that the power of the victim's mind is what is used to fight against Freddy. And I don't need to repeat how strong Joker's mind is.
> 
> Please explain why teenagers can best Freddy in the dream world, but for some reason Joker cannot.



What people have "bested" Freddy in the dream world? Mostly everyone that has fought him died despite willpower, dream abilities, or their ability to transcend their fears, and his defeat has always come at the hands of some DEM. Like I said, the ONLY person to escape him twice is Alice, the dream master, positive gatekeeper, and Freddy's good counterpart, and even she needed DEMs to do it.


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## Wasabifold (Oct 31, 2012)

Regardless bro, the people inside "Freddy's turf" as you call it are not powerless, and are seen time and time again using their minds to beat him. Keep ignoring my posts.

And I think you need to revisit the movie since it is the victim's dream. You may try to deny it, but it's an explanation they have stuck with since the very first movie. To get to someone's dream, you have to mess with their minds. It's simple connect the dots.


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## Qinglong (Oct 31, 2012)

Saitou Hajime said:


> Except it's more than just the Spectre weakened. Joker is psychically boosted in one instances, and both cases came down to Spectre losing because he's fighting on Joker's turf and playing by his rules. Are there any other instances where the Spectre got bested or had difficulties because he's fighting in a reality where the opponent dictated the rules?



Which is why he's been fought off by people with weaker minds than The Joker

Are you seriously saying even a Weakened Spectre would have problems with Freddy?


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## Wasabifold (Oct 31, 2012)

He's still not getting that weaker minds fight off Freddy. Not quite sure he realizes Joker has a stronger mind than anyone in the Freddy series.


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## Saitou Hajime (Oct 31, 2012)

Wasabifold said:


> Regardless bro, the people inside "Freddy's turf" as you call it are *not powerless*, and are seen time and time again using their minds to beat him. Keep ignoring my posts.



Actually, they usually are. The ones that DO have powers are stated to be exceptions, possessing innate dream gifts that manifested because of their traumatic experiences and upbringing.

You keep bringing up this people who have "beaten" Freddy in the dream world, and yet they don't exist. Dream Warriors? Dead. Alice's friends except boyfriend in part 4? Dead. Alice's boyfriend and new friends except one lucky girl? Dead.



> _And I think you need to revisit the movie since it is the victim's dream. You may try to deny it, but it's an explanation they have stuck with since the very first movie. To get to someone's dream, you have to mess with their minds. It's simple connect the dots._



It's been established since Dream Warriors that the dream world is a separate dimension where souls/minds go when they sleep, and that Freddy is the de facto gatekeeper of that world. Part 2 is the only time where Freddy actually went into a victim's mind and tried to possess them.  

Like I said, "messing with people's heads" doesn't explain a body levitating and getting cut up, or a body getting sucked down a gaping hole in one's bed and then a massive amount of blood getting expelled. And that's just the first film.



Qinglong said:


> Are you seriously saying even a Weakened Spectre would have problems with Freddy?



Under the same principles that made him he lose to Joker, probably. But like I said, it depends; what's the Spectre's track record in confronting mystical beings in their own domain?


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## Qinglong (Oct 31, 2012)

... There's not enough chips for this


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## I3igAl (Oct 31, 2012)

Saitou Hajime said:


> Under the same principles that made him he lose to Joker, probably. But like I said, it depends; what's the Spectre's track record in confronting mystical beings in their own domain?



This is going to be funny  . I don't know much about the Spectre(and DC in general), but you should just take a look at wikipedia perhaps.


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## FireEel (Oct 31, 2012)

I get what he is saying.

Basically his reasoning is this. Spectre was unable to win the Joker because he was in the Joker's turf and had to play by Joker's rules. Joker is the GM, Spectre is the player. It doesn't matter how many times more high level Spectre is, the player will always lose to the GM.

As for Freddy vs Joker, he is applying the same logic. Joker has to play on Freddy's rules in Freddy's turf. In this case, Freddy is the GM, and Joker is the player. Hence Joker cannot win, because the player will always lose to the GM.


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## Emperor Joker (Oct 31, 2012)

all right this thread's gone on long enough I think.


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