# Itachi vs Minato (How itachi wins)



## kellzfresh (Jul 19, 2013)

Hi, im new here 

Just showing how itachi wins. They are among my favourite characters so im not being biased for any 

*Kyuubi cloak mode minato doesnt have bijuu bomb so i didnt include that in the analysis.
I didnt include izanami or Reaper death seal for obvious reasons*
In this battle, both itachi or minato can win depending on who outsmarts who.

*Itachi's Advantage*​
Itachi one of the smartest ninja's in the narutoverse. Itachi had the best record in the academy in konoha. Not even minato was good or smart enough to advance up the ranks as a genius.
Hiruzen knew both minato and itachi first hand and praised itachi to have a hokage level thinking at age seven.
People from the uchiha clan are mostly smart people and itachi is the best from this lot. This makes him smarter than minato for being a genius among a clan with geniuses.

Minato is the fastest in the series, but itachi is one fast ninja. Itachi's speed is criminally underrated, despite the fact that he has been faster than everyone he has ever faced in a battle.
Sasuke, kakashi, kurenai, killerbee, naruto
killerbee and naruto cant land a hit


His reflexes is the fastest in the series and on par with minato in my opinion.

*Spoiler*: __ 







*Reflex to put up susano at the speed of light to block kirin is the best reflex feat in the manga. Therefore if minato teleports close to itachi, this is proof that he has the speed to put up susano to avoid any hit.* 

Now minato uses many kunai and spreads them around the battlefield just like against raikage. But any attempt of throwing an FTG kunai at itachi is hopeless to the best shuriken ninja in the series. Itachi will deflect all his kunai.

Itachi also has genjutsu which is a massive advantage for him. If minato so much as looks in itachi's eye, he'll be caught in a genjutsu or worse a tsukiyomi.
Itachi can cast it with his finger and can use crows to cast his genjutsu. 

*Spoiler*: __ 








*Even if minato avoids itachi's eyes, Its almost impossible to say minato wont look at any of the crow's eyes or itachi's finger. Unless minato has a counter kishi is hiding somewhere, he falls to one of itachis numerous one shot jutsus.*

Minato is not scratching itachi's susano even in kcm mode. Minato may be fast enough to evade amaterasu so it'll be difficult for itachi to land a hit on minato without using genjutsu.
I didnt talk much about amaterasu, susano attacks and tosuka blade because minato could probably be too fast for them but there is a main way to get him which is *genjutsu.*

*Itachi's way to outsmart minato and catch minato in a genjutsu*

Knowing itachi's intelligence, he can allow minato to touch him and so that minato places the seal on him, and when minato comes for the kill it becomes a clone which instantly puts minato in a genjutsu(note that the seal mark is now on the dead clone). Itachi has done this numerous times, to deidara, to kabuto, to killerbee to sasuke.

sasuke got into a genjutsu without knowing

*Spoiler*: __ 








killerbee got into a genjutsu

*Spoiler*: __ 








kabuto was in izanami after this without knowing

*Spoiler*: __ 








As you can see itachi has a lot of ways to catch minato in a genjutsu which makes it a clear advantage for him.

What do you think?


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## Trojan (Jul 19, 2013)

Wow, this thread is full of biases. 
anyway, itachi is weaker than base Jman people, 
that his overall level. deal with it. 

and as bonus


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 19, 2013)

Reflexes to put up Susanoo at the speed of light ?, so it means he's faster than Juubito? 

Try to keep the wanking to a minimum son, if you want other people to believe what you just typed.


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## blk (Jul 19, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Wow, this thread is full of biases.
> anyway, itachi is weaker than base Jman people,
> that his overall level. deal with it.
> 
> and as bonus


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## JPongo (Jul 19, 2013)

^That's why Minato was Hokage.


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## Rain (Jul 19, 2013)

They are both strong, but Itachi's genjutsu prowess are simply too good for this manga.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2013)

When will people learn that it's excessively difficult to cast Genjutsu on speedy characters. 5 Madara clones could only accomplish it against Yondaime Raikage when he was distracted and by holding him down. Base Minato is faster than Yondaime Raikage and can't be held down. KCM Minato is far faster. Minato isn't getting caught in Genjutsu by someone of Itachi's speed.


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## Rain (Jul 19, 2013)

Turrin said:


> When will people learn that it's excessively difficult to cast Genjutsu on speedy characters. 5 Madara clones could only accomplish it against Yondaime Raikage when he was distracted and by holding him down. Base Minato is faster than Yondaime Raikage and can't be held down. KCM Minato is far faster. Minato isn't getting caught in Genjutsu by someone of Itachi's speed.



When will people learn that even the fastest characters aren't moving all the time, much less at full speed, as we can see even in this final battle against the Juubi Jinchuriki.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 19, 2013)

Turrin said:


> When will people learn that it's excessively difficult to cast Genjutsu on speedy characters. 5 Madara clones could only accomplish it against Yondaime Raikage when he was distracted and by holding him down. Base Minato is faster than Yondaime Raikage and can't be held down. KCM Minato is far faster. Minato isn't getting caught in Genjutsu by someone of Itachi's speed.



Minato doesn't have A's reaction speed though(with the raiton shround ofc). 

Also Itachi has faster reactions than Sasuke, who outpaced Minato and saved Naruto with his Susano'o activation this chapter.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Jul 19, 2013)

kellzfresh said:


> Hi, im new here
> 
> Just showing how itachi wins. They are among my favourite characters so im not being biased for any
> 
> ...



1). Itachi is very fast and can create jutsu faster then the SG can see thus jutsu speed comparable to Minato's physical speed... which means itachi's reflexes would have to be very high as well...
However, the fact Itachi only has super fast JUTSU SPEED Means that his hands are super  fast, not really the rest of him... Like Neji!

Thus Itachi would be able to create bushins for replacements jutsu against Minato's physical speed attacks, but even the raikage with physical speed and reflexes even beyond Itachi's jutsu speed was made to look like he was standing still in comparison to minato's Physical speed+FTG...
Even the fastest character next to mInato physically was way way too slow to possibly track, react or catch Minato... Thus itachi will have even less of a chance therefore will obviously  fail...

2). Minato has shown the ability to reverse summon away the Kyuubi without even directly touching him and since susanoo is a separate barrier from the user... Minato can either reverse summon away susanoo or itachi inside susanoo by touching it, ot having a summon touch it, while he is touching the summon....

Thus susanoo is not a factor in this fight with minato's ability to take it away without even directly touching it and with the use of kage bushin's... It is a definite...

3).  Minato's constant movement with the FTG and his physical speed makes eye contact almost impossible so genjutsu are not effective against minato...
And even if he is caught, all he has to do is use the FTG to transport himself to another location to break the hold itachi has over his chakra and nervous system...

Therefore, if minato can simply break any genjutsu just by mentally focusing to summon himself to another location, breaking the hold the genjutsu user has on his nervous system and chakra... Then any genjutsu that does not keep him from mentally being able to focus cannot possibly work on him since the FTG can just be activated and minato can be miles away regaining control of his nervous system and chakra breaking any genjutsu...

CONCLUSION:
Without the ability to even use susanoo or genjutsu, amaterasu cannot possibly catch Minato and his jutsu speed will not save him against minato;s much moer superior speed... What chance does itachi have to win this fight...

pretty much none... Minato wins...


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## Veracity (Jul 19, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Wow, this thread is full of biases.
> anyway, itachi is weaker than base Jman people,
> that his overall level. deal with it.
> 
> and as bonus



Your basis for this is completely stupid.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Jul 19, 2013)

Okay, this is extremely biased, honestly. Whereas I do believe That Itachi will most definately defeat Minato without a DOUBT, the reasons justifying your theory are ridiculous & not very plausible dude lol Yes, Itachi (from what I've seen) > Minato but it's also arguable that they're equals as well. Infact, I see it as Itachi is greater than or equal, not vice versa. 

The ONLY reason people oppose Itachi is 'cause he's overrated, but that also 'causes people to underestimate him. People don't like him simply for the fact that he truly is one of the strongest characters in the entire series and can trump their favs, simple as that. It's a fact people need to face. He's not the STRONGEST but he's one of 'em & people need to get used to it.


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## trance (Jul 19, 2013)

This thread is a joke.

Minato's been ahead ever since it was shown he has a KCM.

KCM Minato > Itachi = base Minato


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## tanman (Jul 19, 2013)

Before the most recent chapter, I considered KCM to be the ace that gave Edo Minato the definitive win over Edo Itachi.
But I feel like we've went long enough without feats from KCM Minato that I can now once more consider Edo Itachi and Edo Minato to be on the same level. We can at most assume that KCM provides a slight attack speed bonus with a durability boost. The chakra boost is made immaterial by the infinite stamina that Edo Tensei provides.

Edo Nagato = Edo Minato = Edo Itachi
Pain > Living Minato w/ full knowledge > Healthy Itachi > Living Minato > Sick Itachi.



And everyone is biased. Fans especially. Vocal fans even more so.



As for the OP, it's true that Susano'o reacted to Kirin. But Kirin *does not* move at the speed of light.  Genjutsu is a factor dependent entirely on knowledge. It would only be effective if Minato doesn't understand how Itachi's genjutsu works, since Hirashin can allow him to avoid it for a while. Amaterasu and Susano'o will normally end up being Itachi's primary tools. Hirashin and solid stamina will be Minato's entire arsenal.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2013)

Itachi and Minato are like Yin and Yang. 

Its easy to make a one sided argument, which is more than likely bullshit. This holds true for both characters. They are probably the two most evenly match characters in the fucking manga, seriously. 

And go away Yuri Yuki, seriously leave and never return


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## Sykonaut (Jul 19, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato doesn't have A's reaction speed though(with the raiton shround ofc).
> 
> Also Itachi has faster reactions than Sasuke, who outpaced Minato and saved Naruto with his Susano'o activation this chapter.


A's reaction speed was compared to Minato's only after A had used raiton shroud.


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## Trojan (Jul 19, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Your basis for this is completely stupid.



which basis are you talking about? 
If you meant Itachi's photo it's manga canon. 
and if you mean that Itachi is weaker than Jman is also manga canon

like it or not, no one cares.


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## tanman (Jul 19, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Your basis for this is completely stupid.



Don't feed the troll.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

tanman said:


> Before the most recent chapter, I considered KCM to be the ace that gave Edo Minato the definitive win over Edo Itachi.
> But I feel like we've went long enough without feats from KCM Minato that I can now once more consider Edo Itachi and Edo Minato to be on the same level. We can at most assume that KCM provides a slight attack speed bonus with a durability boost. The chakra boost is made immaterial by the infinite stamina that Edo Tensei provides.
> 
> Edo Nagato = Edo Minato = Edo Itachi
> ...



I agree with this dude. If the author wrote the fight, it would be close and either character would get new feats and tickets out of situations as required. I don't think there's much of a disparity at all with thier current jutsu though.​


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## ? (Jul 19, 2013)

tanman said:


> Before the most recent chapter, I considered KCM to be the ace that gave Edo Minato the definitive win over Edo Itachi.
> *But I feel like we've went long enough without feats from KCM Minato that I can now once more consider Edo Itachi and Edo Minato to be on the same level.* We can at most assume that KCM provides a slight attack speed bonus with a durability boost. The chakra boost is made immaterial by the infinite stamina that Edo Tensei provides.



Don't you think it's too early to say this? Minato still has at least one new jutsu we haven't seen; A jutsu he thinks is strong enough to beat (a weakened) Juubito.  That's too significant to ignore.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato doesn't have A's reaction speed though(with the raiton shround ofc).
> 
> Also Itachi has faster reactions than Sasuke, who outpaced Minato and saved Naruto with his Susano'o activation this chapter.



All I heard was i'm grimjow and I've become a troll.


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## Trojan (Jul 19, 2013)

tanman said:


> Don't feed the troll.



huh, pathetic. 
stating a clear statement from the manga is trolling, I wonder.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Jul 19, 2013)

Trance said:


> This thread is a joke.
> 
> Minato's been ahead ever since it was shown he has a KCM.
> 
> KCM Minato > Itachi = base Minato



Ummm, no, not really 

KCM Minato is just what it is, KCM, hasn't shown anything extraordinary that would indicate he's better. We've seen nothing special other than the fact that he can access it. That's just like saying "Sasuke's an Uchiha so he's better than everyone"


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2013)

You're kidding right.


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## ZE (Jul 19, 2013)

Weren't Minato vs Itachi threads balanced before Minato got KCM? The general consensus was that they were equally matched and that either one could win. 

So how come now that Minato has KCM there's some doubts here and there that Minato's superiority isn't decisive? Minato received a huge taijutsu, ninjutsu and durability boost. He's the same Minato, but stronger, faster etc. Even his kage bushins can survive being hit by Jyuuibito, which is easily the physically strongest character in the manga. 

If before there were any doubts, now there should be none. 
It's clear as day that Minato would win more times than not. And we haven't seen if he can use the chakra arms and stuff like that.


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## tanman (Jul 19, 2013)

? said:


> Don't you think it's too early to say this? Minato still has at least one new jutsu we haven't seen; A jutsu he thinks is strong enough to beat (a weakened) Juubito.  That's too significant to ignore.




I don't think Minato is dumb enough to believe that his jutsu will kill Juubito.
Certainly he plans on examining it for weaknesses as he uses the technique to defend the kids.

We'll see. But it has been nine weeks since we first saw his KCM, and he hasn't exactly kept to the background. We have to start judging his feats sometime. Right now, durability is the only remotely apparent change.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Jul 19, 2013)

ZE said:


> Weren't Minato vs Itachi threads balanced before Minato got KCM? The general consensus was that they were equally matched and that either one could win.
> 
> So how come now that Minato has KCM there's some doubts here and there that Minato's superiority isn't decisive? Minato received a huge taijutsu, ninjutsu and durability boost. He's the same Minato, but stronger, faster etc. Even his kage bushins can survive being hit by Jyuuibito, which is easily the physically strongest character in the manga.
> 
> ...


This, basically. It was roughly even before, when it was living Minato vs Edo Itachi. Now its just onesided.


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## Sykonaut (Jul 19, 2013)

Minato knows that Itachi is from the Uchiha clan, he won't be looking Itachi directly in the eyes. THIS (Minato not having to teleport directly to the Hiraishin marking) in a combination with THIS makes it almost impossible to defeat Minato. All that Minato needs to do is to get a single Hiraishin mark within the few meters of Itachi's position and then THIS happens (only instead of stabbing Itachi in the chest Minato stabs him in the neck or cuts his head off). Now imagine having to dodge, at the same time an by few meters at least, all the _kunais_ that Minato constantly throws at you *and* all the _kunais_/Hiraishin marks that he already placed all around the battlefield at the start of the fight. The moment one of these _kunais_/Hiraishin marks gets close enough to you (few meters), you are done for. Since Minato can teleport to each Hiraishin mark instantenously he is also able to dodge any of Itachi's attacks. No, Itachi cannot win, only another S/T user can defeat Minato.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 19, 2013)

tanman said:


> I don't think Minato is dumb enough to believe that his jutsu will kill Juubito.
> Certainly he plans on examining it for weaknesses as he uses the technique to defend the kids.
> 
> We'll see. But it has been nine weeks since we first saw his KCM, and he hasn't exactly kept to the background. We have to start judging his feats sometime.





Deshi Basara said:


> *"While he's in this state... I'LL DEFEAT HIM!"
> 
> "It's been awhile since i've used the rasen..."*



*I don't know why exactly you are in such a rush to judge Minato's KCM right before his new jutsu is about to debut.Makes no sense.*


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Jul 19, 2013)

ZE said:


> Weren't Minato vs Itachi threads balanced before Minato got KCM? The general consensus was that they were equally matched and that either one could win.
> 
> So how come now that Minato has KCM there's some doubts here and there that Minato's superiority isn't decisive? Minato received a huge taijutsu, ninjutsu and durability boost. He's the same Minato, but stronger, faster etc. Even his kage bushins can survive being hit by Jyuuibito, which is easily the physically strongest character in the manga.
> 
> ...



Yup, that totally means he's exempt from Genjutsu


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2013)

tanman said:


> I don't think Minato is dumb enough to believe that his jutsu will kill Juubito.
> Certainly he plans on examining it for weaknesses as he uses the technique to defend the kids.
> 
> We'll see. But it has been nine weeks since we first saw his KCM, and he hasn't exactly kept to the background. We have to start judging his feats sometime. Right now, durability is the only remotely apparent change.




Actually, the Hokage have all kept to the background pretty extensively. What has Hashirama done in the war, clones? It doesn't match up to what we know he can do. Hiruzen has done nothing, and Tobirama revealed one new technique that didn't accomplish anything.


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## ZE (Jul 19, 2013)

Chaotic Gangsta said:


> Yup, that totally means he's exempt from Genjutsu



Close to it. He'll be even faster than before. So it will be close to impossible to keep track of his movements. Itachi won't know for most of the time where Minato will be, much less make eye contact with him.


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## tanman (Jul 19, 2013)

Deshi Basara said:


> *I don't know why exactly you are in such a rush to judge Minato's KCM right before his new jutsu is about to debut.Makes no sense.*



I'm in no rush. I just think it's silly to continue _not_ to judge.
But you certainly are correct that Minato thinks that. 
I doubt "kill" is the operative word, though.





Rocky said:


> Actually, the Hokage have all kept to the background pretty extensively. What has Hashirama done in the war, clones? It doesn't match up to what we know he can do. Hiruzen has done nothing, and Tobirama revealed one new technique that didn't accomplish anything.



The Alliance as a whole hasn't been able to do much, but the hokages and Team 7 have been leading pretty much all the offense since their arrival. Hashirama and Tobirama have both attacked Madara, Obito, and the Juubi when it was independant. Minato has attacked Obito and Juubito both of which should have provided a frame of reference for his physical abilities. Compared to Killer Bee, for example, they've certainly done a lot.


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## trance (Jul 19, 2013)

Chaotic Gangsta said:


> Ummm, no, not really
> 
> KCM Minato is just what it is, KCM, hasn't shown anything extraordinary that would indicate he's better. We've seen nothing special other than the fact that he can access it. That's just like saying "Sasuke's an Uchiha so he's better than everyone"



What?  

Look at what KCM did for Naruto. It gave him incredible strength and speed (enough to make him faster than V2 Ei), negative emotion sensing (which even the best sensor can't do), chakra arms that are very versatile, and great damage protection (Roshi's Yoton no Yoroi barely burned him). It boosted Naruto from high Jōnin level (roughly) to on par with and above most Kages.

Now, imagine what it can do for Minato who is already considered one of the stronger Kages?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

? said:


> Don't you think it's too early to say this? Minato still has at least one new jutsu we haven't seen; A jutsu he thinks is strong enough to beat (a weakened) Juubito.  That's too significant to ignore.



I'm pretty sure he's just going to use Hiraishin to save Naruto and Sasuke since Obito _is_ already tagged.



Besides, I think it's more probable that Obito is going to be stopped mostly by Naruto after Minato gives up Kurama's chakra, maybe with Sasuke getting giant Susano'o to keep up.​


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## tanman (Jul 19, 2013)

Trance said:


> What?
> 
> Look at what KCM did for Naruto. It gave him incredible strength and speed (enough to make him faster than V2 Ei), negative emotion sensing (which even the best sensor can't do), chakra arms that are very versatile, and great damage protection (Roshi's Yoton no Yoroi barely burned him). It boosted Naruto from high Jōnin level (roughly) to on par with and above most Kages.
> 
> Now, imagine what it can do for Minato who is already considered one of the stronger Kages?



The key word is "imagine."
Perhaps we should stop thinking about what it "can do" and instead look at what it has done.


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## LostSelf (Jul 19, 2013)

Minato got a reflexes boost as well. Almost everything in his arsenal should be stronger. But not Hiraishin.

Hiraishin cannot be faster than how it is already. And his reflexes were fast enough to keep up with Itachi's arsenal. Either way, it's obvious that this boost givs him all the edge here.


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## trance (Jul 19, 2013)

tanman said:


> The key word is "imagine."



It made Naruto stronger, so it'll make Minato stronger also. You disagree?


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## tanman (Jul 19, 2013)

Trance said:


> It made Naruto stronger, so it'll make Minato stronger also. You disagree?



No, I don't disagree.
I do, however, believe it might not have effected the two of them in the same way. Firstly, there is no actual biju inside Minato, so he might not be capable of chakra arms and other things that seemed intrinsic of the form. Secondarily, he has the opposite type of chakra. Recall that Naruto has yang chakra, aka the good kind. His chakra has life-giving properties as shown in Chapter 505. Functions like negative emotion sensing are likely attached to that. Obito told the reader in Chapter 510 that "vitality and physical energy" forms yang release. That effectively explains Naruto's physical boost.


Yin release, on the other hand, "creates shape and form from nothingness" (again according to Chapter 510). Minato would likely benefit more from this chakra if he used genjutsu, which Nidaime Mizukage confirmed to be yin release.

I do, however, believe that the cloak naturally grants better durability (and, of course, stamina).


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 19, 2013)

Genjutsu is still Minato's worst nightmare


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## Rain (Jul 19, 2013)

Are we here debating Edo Itachi vs KCM Minato or Living Itachi vs KCM-less Minato.

If Itachi is an Edo, Minato has absolutely no way of putting him down while Itachi should be able to catch him eventually off guard with a bunshin + amaterasu/tsukuyomi  and seal him with Totsuka.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2013)

Let me ask Itachi-fans something what would Minato have to show to prove he's superior? The Itachi-fan argument used to be that Base Minato is equivalent to Itachi. However instead of following through with the logical conclusion of their previous argument that if Base Minato = Itachi, than Minato after receiving a major power boost he should be stronger, the argument has now changed to KCM Minato = Itachi.

So what does Minato need to pull out to prove it to you guys? If Minato pulls out a technique capable of actually damaging Juubiobito would that be enough considering what we've seen Juubiobito effortless tank? How about a higher level of KCM (or BM) would that prove he's stronger or would the argument just because Itachi = KCM LV2 (or BM) Minato? What about a SM he can use with KCM? I honestly doubt Minato is going to pull this out, but i'm just wondering where the cut off will be where Itachi-fans can finally agree with the rest of the forum that he's stronger than Itachi?

Granted I know for many Itachi-fans this has just become an exercise in Trolling, but there are Itachi-fans that put so much time into arguing Itachi >= Minato still that it just seems sad if they are expending all that energy/time simply to troll, so I have to assume at least some actually believe the stuff they say. So I find it intersting to ask what could change their opinion (short of well I would say a statement, but there's always an excuse for those as well, so i'll say short of Kishi actually showing Minato beat Itachi).

Edit: I mean I think Minato after the KCM reveals is quite a good deal stronger than any form of Itachi, but I could still name stuff that Itachi (or someone using/talking about his Jutsu) could show that would make me believe Itachi is > or = to him again, if someone is interested, but I really wonder if any Itachi-fan can do the same for Minato.


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## Kaiser (Jul 19, 2013)

Genjutsu is a ninja art use to fool an opponent in order to leave him open for a following attack. That ninja art isn't fooling a clone however since he is only the "fake" one. A clone using hiraishin also makes the possible opening a genjutsu user want to take after fooling the person meaningless since the clone could instantly appear and disturb the original's chakra flow


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## tanman (Jul 19, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Edit: I mean I think Minato after the KCM reveals is quite a good deal stronger than any form of Itachi, but I could still name stuff that Itachi (or someone using/talking about his Jutsu) could show that would make me believe Itachi is > or = to him again, if someone is interested, but I really wonder if any Itachi-fan can do the same for Minato.



I'll take you up on that. I don't consider myself an Itachi fan (I don't particularly like the character. In fact, I very rarely feel strongly about any character.) But I do believe there are certainly people who would say I overestimate him.

With both alive and with full knowledge, a win for Minato is almost guaranteed. Itachi will die of chakra exhaustion before he can land a hit. Genjutsu is the only major threat. Minato 8/10.

With Edo Minato facing Living Itachi, a win for Minato occurrs ten out of ten times. Totsuka and Amaterasu are avoided. Genjutsu is ineffectual since even if Minato goes under he can recover from any physical damage done.

With both being Edos, it ends in Shiki Fujin.

Other scenarios are likely double K.O.s, stalemates, or Itachi's victory. Since I've humored your request, could you humor mine and read my previous post, which explains why I believe little has thus far changed in the Minato v. Itachi debate.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Let me ask Itachi-fans something what would Minato have to show to prove he's superior? The Itachi-fan argument used to be that Base Minato is equivalent to Itachi.



I never argued that, and the people that did beleve it tended to give Minato the benefit of the doubt on having more unknown skills to help counter Itachi's much more diverse arsenal.​


Turrin said:


> the argument has now changed to KCM Minato = Itachi.



KCM Minato hasn't done that much different from base Minato to help with Itachi. He has a larger reserve of chakra, but that's somewhat mitigated by the standard Edo Tensei advantages.​


Turrin said:


> So what does Minato need to pull out to prove it to you guys? If Minato pulls out a technique capable of actually damaging Juubiobito would that be enough considering what we've seen Juubiobito effortless tank?



You'd probably argue that Minato's kunai cuts through Susano'or and the Yata Mirror if it did, eh? I actually think it's likely that he cuts up Obito next chapter, but that won't really change much.​


Turrin said:


> Granted I know for many Itachi-fans this has just become an exercise in Trolling,



Sometimes I don't even know... but really, Itachi has the peak intellect, overarching skill, and numerous finishers to be able to defeat mostly anybody if he outsmarts them with illusions/clones. 

Plus he has enough hype from Hashirama and Madara (Yin?) to give trolling about hypotheticals the sliver of validity it needs to give the insanity a touch of charm.​


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2013)

I think Minato is performing how he should. Considering his current opponent, what were you expecting, tanman?


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## trance (Jul 19, 2013)

tanman said:


> You're comparing how one character was able to use Kyuubi chakra and extrapolating that to Minato. We've seen KYCM Minato, and he simply hasn't performed that way. Extrapolation is in this case nothing more than speculation.
> 
> Kinkaku _ate_ the Kyuubi. As a result, he gained V2. V2 has been very uniform and has shown to come with immense physical power every time it's been demonstrated. I, however, am arguing that Yin KCM is an entirely different beast. I am arguing that yang chakra is responsible for all of Naruto's new physical prowess based on Obito's statements. One might suppose from that that yang chakra is the property that enhanced the physical abilities of V2 users. But one can't simply give the feats of lesser or similar looking forms to Minato. It doesn't make an ounce of sense.



I see your point and I concede my argument.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 19, 2013)

And frankly, base Minato was portrayed on a higher level than Itachi. Hell in base, he redirected the Ten-Tails Super Bijudama on his own, outfought Obito (something Itachi couldn't do), nearly curbstomped A and Bee together, and was generally considered unsurpassed until Naruto. Itachi isn't given the same attention in that regard, and has CONSISTENTLY been portrayed around Sannin level, with he HIMSELF putting himself at Jiraiya's level (no matter how much Itachi hyper fans try twisting that to saying he was 'lying', he THOUGHT that, not vocalized). 

Itachi doesn't defeat or is even in the same ballpark as Minato, who has consistently been portrayed as stronger.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hell in base, he redirected the Ten-Tails Super Bijudama on his own,



The Yata Mirror bounces it back at the Ten-Tails. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> outfought Obito (something Itachi couldn't do),



Itachi intimidated Obito into not attacking, something Minato couldn't do.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> nearly curbstomped A and Bee together



Bee only used a partial transformation. A's borderline retarded.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi isn't given the same attention in that regard, and has CONSISTENTLY been portrayed around Sannin level



Like when he beat a Sannin as an 11-year-old, easily.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> with he HIMSELF putting himself at Jiraiya's level



He was talking about Kurama.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi doesn't defeat or is even in the same ballpark as Minato, who has consistently been portrayed as stronger.





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> and was generally considered unsurpassed until Naruto.



Itachi has Hashirama, Madara, Orochimaru, and Obito hyping him.

That trumps Jiraiya and A by a longshot.


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## Rain (Jul 19, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Let me ask Itachi-fans something what would Minato have to show to prove he's superior? The Itachi-fan argument used to be that Base Minato is equivalent to Itachi. However instead of following through with the logical conclusion of their previous argument that if Base Minato = Itachi, than Minato after receiving a major power boost he should be stronger, the argument has now changed to KCM Minato = Itachi.
> 
> So what does Minato need to pull out to prove it to you guys? If Minato pulls out a technique capable of actually damaging Juubiobito would that be enough considering what we've seen Juubiobito effortless tank? How about a higher level of KCM (or BM) would that prove he's stronger or would the argument just because Itachi = KCM LV2 (or BM) Minato? What about a SM he can use with KCM? I honestly doubt Minato is going to pull this out, but i'm just wondering where the cut off will be where Itachi-fans can finally agree with the rest of the forum that he's stronger than Itachi?
> 
> ...



Living Minato was never on par with Itachi feat-wise. The reason why i considered them equals is strictly portrayal and assumption that Minato has a few more strong jutsus/modes (like KCM).

When/If Minato shows a viable and reliable defense against Itachi's genjutsu, i will admit that he indeed is stronger fighter of the two.


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## tanman (Jul 19, 2013)

Good deal, Trance.



Rocky said:


> I think Minato is performing how he should. Considering his current opponent, what were you expecting, tanman?



Fair point. He can't exactly solo the Juubi or Obito.
However, there are many other ways to indicate a character's strength and speed. At no point has there even been a comment about Minato's physical improvements, let alone any demonstration of it when compared to his comrades. Something as simple as showing Minato out-speeding KCM Naruto as they attacked would worked have worked, and that is very much how mangakas tend to operate when they reveal a new form.


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2013)

Rain said:


> When/If Minato shows a viable and reliable defense against Itachi's genjutsu, i will admit that he indeed is stronger fighter of the two.




Minato's defense against Genjutsu is the same as his defense against everything: you can't hit what you can't catch.

If Minato stares into Itachi's eyes, he looses. It's just that no Shinobi of Minato's intelligence is going to stare into the eyes of an Uchiha they're actively engaging.



tanman said:


> Fair point. He can't exactly solo the Juubi or Obito.
> However, there are many other ways to indicate a character's strength and speed. At no point has there even been a comment about Minato's physical improvements, let alone any demonstration of it when compared to his comrades. Something as simple as showing Minato out-speeding KCM Naruto as they attacked would worked have worked, and that is very much how mangakas tend to operate when they reveal a new form.




He is about to save Sasuke & Naruto I assume, and Naruto was flat out blitzed by Obito. I'm going to wait and see. Minato's strength and speed hasn't been tested yet, because for a while he's been holding down that barrier. I don't agree with your theory, but I'm not saying it's wrong. I don't know yet.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 19, 2013)

Itachi Fans, I have to ask: when in the story was Itachi EVER placed as Minato's equal? Show the panel. When was he given the same level of feats? When was any character remarking about their respective powers? Tell me, when? Where?


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## Vice (Jul 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The Yata Mirror bounces it back at the Ten-Tails.



Proof it can do this?



> Itachi intimidated Obito into not attacking, something Minato couldn't do.



Itachi's threat came with exposing his secrets. He didn't raise a hand to Obito until after he was dead with a surprise attack that ultimately failed.



> Bee only used a partial transformation. A's borderline retarded.



Cool. Show me the panel of Itachi replicating this feat.



> Like when he beat a Sannin as an 11-year-old, easily.



With asspull Sharingan.



> He was talking about Kurama.



Funny how Itachi's response to Kisame was about Kurama when Kisame directly referenced Jiraiya.



> Itachi has Hashirama, Orochimaru, and Obito hyping him.



Which you guys have blatantly taken out of context and wanked to near impossible levels.



> Madara ... hyping him



This shit, however, flat never happened.



> That trumps Jiraiya and A by a longshot.



Yeah, fan wank tends to do that to canon.


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## Dr. White (Jul 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Minato's defense against Genjutsu is the same as his defense against everything: you can't hit what you can't catch.
> 
> If Minato stares into Itachi's eyes, he looses. It's just that no Shinobi of Minato's intelligence is going to stare into the eyes of an Uchiha they're actively engaging.



You say this as if it is completely easy to accomplish. That is like me saying "yeah it's easy to beat Law's hax, just steer clear of his room and you win". In practice fighting an Uchiha without succombing to genjutsu is very hard: not making eye contact against someone your fighting is hard enough in of itself, but to boot Itachi can use his fingers, crows, and even as hype of genjutsuin'g people from far away. Minato is not just gonna sit here and solo Itachi while staring at is mid section.

Then we have the blatent fact that Itachi can force eye contact, Itachi is fast enough in his own regards and has plenty of deadly jutsu/clones to get Minato in a strategy, All Itachi needs is one glance into his eyes, and Tsukuyomi ends things. 

Yes Minato can teleport, but if he doesn't know what Itachi's exact intentions are or gets caught off guard it's game over, just the same as Itachi getting tagged.


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## kellzfresh (Jul 19, 2013)

Octavian said:


> > OP claims he isn't biased in any shape or form
> 
> > Goes on to claim that Itachi can activate Susano'o at the *speed of light*
> 
> >



you probably forgot sasuke said kirin goes at the speed of light, u need to read the manga more son.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

Vice said:


> Proof it can do this?




*Spoiler*: __ 











Vice said:


> With asspull Sharingan.



That's kind of my point about Itachi. He's an asspull kind of guy.



Vice said:


> Funny how Itachi's response to Kisame was about Kurama when Kisame directly referenced Jiraiya.



Itachi said "him." Kisame said "he" was being babysitted. After the skirmish, Itachi also said there was no need to rush due to Naruto's current level, indicating that Naruto/Kurama was the unknown.

Kisame also thought _base_ Itachi could beat Jiriaya, as Kisame asked him not to use his Mangekyō anymore yet asked why retreat was necessary for him. That more flows with base Itachi beating another Sannin several years earlier.

Also, what's with believing Itachi, Kisame, and more backup from Akatsuki wouldn't change the stalemate of an Itachi vs base Jiraiya match? Seriously? No, the subject was the unstoppable hype-juggernaut that was the Nine-Tails.


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## Baroxio (Jul 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Minato's defense against Genjutsu is the same as his defense against everything: you can't hit what you can't catch.
> 
> *If Minato stares into Itachi's eyes, he looses. It's just that no Shinobi of Minato's intelligence is going to stare into the eyes of an Uchiha they're actively engaging.*


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

I know it _looks_ like he's staring into his eye, but in reality, he's focusing on his eyelashes, which is why Obito didn't cast genjutsu.​


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Yes Minato can teleport, but if he doesn't know what Itachi's exact intentions are or gets caught off guard it's game over, just the same as Itachi getting tagged.




Let me ask you, which is harder: fighting someone without looking into their eyes, or fighting someone without letting them ever touch you? In actual professional fighting, it's bad to focus on the eyes.

Getting caught off guard is "game over" for anyone. If Hashirama was caught off guard by The Sword of Totsuka, it's "game over". 

It's a matter of probability with these two. I think that the chance of Itachi catching Minato off guard and forcing sustained eye contact is less likely than the chance of Minato catching Itachi off guard and touching him once.



			
				Strat & Baraxio said:
			
		

> I know it looks like he's staring into his eye, but in reality, he's focusing on his eyelashes, which is why Obito didn't cast genjutsu.




It's a pretty huge possibility that Minato was focusing on the Kunai he was planning to warp to, rather than admiring Obito fancy pupils.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I think that the chance of Itachi catching Minato off guard and forcing eye contact once is less likely than the chance of Minato catching Itachi off guard and touching him once.



There you go.


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> There you go.




It has to be sustained eye contact like I said, as Itachi needs time to actually cast the Genjutsu. Itachi's Genjutsu is not passive. If Minato's eyes swoop by Itachi's for .000000000000000001 seconds, he will not be in an illusion.


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## Kaiser (Jul 19, 2013)

Just asking a question since it seems my post was overlooked. What if Minato uses a clone? Genjutsu is a ninja art use to fool an opponent in order to leave him open for a following attack. That ninja art isn't fooling a clone however since he is only the "fake" one. A clone using hiraishin also makes the possible opening a genjutsu user want to take after fooling the person meaningless since the clone could instantly appear and disturb the original's chakra flow


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It has to be sustained eye contact like I said, as Itachi needs time to actually cast the Genjutsu. Itachi's Genjutsu is not passive. If Minato's eyes swoop by Itachi's for .000000000000000001 seconds, he will not be in an illusion.



In the same way Minato needs "sustained" contact to cast fūinjutsu and place the seal. Both jutsu take a very negligible amount of time to cast, and both have done it in mid-air, practically instantly.​


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> In the same way Minato needs "sustained" contact to cast fūinjutsu and place the seal. Both jutsu take a very negligible amount of time to cast.​




So you're arguing my semantics. Well, okay, yes. I agree.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> So you're arguing my semantics. Well, okay, yes. I agree.



Yep. Our mini-debate revolved around you applying "sustained" and "once" in choice areas to frame your preferred choice. 

​


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2013)

I suppose, but who wouldn't do that. Lawyers appointed to capital cases have done worse. 


I have to ask, which do you think is most likely.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I suppose, but who wouldn't do that. Lawyers appointed to capital cases have done worse.



I do much worse on a daily basis.​


Rocky said:


> I have to ask, which do you think is most likely.



Eh, KCM Minato could definitely blitz, but I also definitely think Itachi has a really nice tool in the form of finger genjutsu, which could help land eye contact after Minato snaps out.

Karasu Bunshin also seem really exceptional in shocking opponents into eye contact, or at least that's what Itachi did with Sasuke and seemed quite effective in getting an upperhand against Sage Kabuto.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 19, 2013)

Turrin said:


> All I heard was i'm grimjow and I've become a troll.



Nice rebuttal. I'll surely use that in the future


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## LostSelf (Jul 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Minato's defense against Genjutsu is the same as his defense against everything: you can't hit what you can't catch.
> 
> If Minato stares into Itachi's eyes, he looses. It's just that no Shinobi of Minato's intelligence is going to stare into the eyes of an Uchiha they're actively engaging.



Actually, he did. 

*They knocked it down*

Though the speed could've been so fast that the chances of using genjutsu there was slim, but Minato still did a very risky move.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 19, 2013)

Still waiting for the panels where the manga calls Itachi and Minato equals.


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## tanman (Jul 19, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> *Minato doesn't have A's reaction speed though(with the raiton shround ofc). *
> 
> Also Itachi has faster reactions than Sasuke, who outpaced Minato and saved Naruto with his Susano'o activation this chapter.



This is an essential point in the debate that a lot of people forget.


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2013)

tanman said:


> I'll take you up on that. I don't consider myself an Itachi fan (I don't particularly like the character. In fact, I very rarely feel strongly about any character.) But I do believe there are certainly people who would say I overestimate him.
> 
> With both alive and with full knowledge, a win for Minato is almost guaranteed. Itachi will die of chakra exhaustion before he can land a hit. Genjutsu is the only major threat. Minato 8/10.
> 
> ...



You didn't really humor my request, what I was asking for is what Minato could show in the future that would make Itachi-fans agree that Minato is stronger than him. You kind of just stated how Minato could win with his currently shown feats against various incarnations of Itachi, which I think are pretty fair assessments by the way

 though I disagree on the conclusion of Edo Itachi vs Edo Minato:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Since I think it would ether end in a draw or Minato's victory through Hakke Seal (& if he uses summoning Toad Gourd Seal or Frog Song). This is of course talking about shown feats, with speculation and portrayal added in I think Edo Minato most likely beast Edo Itachi hands down as I can't imagine Minato doesn't have an Fuuinjutsu that can seal the edo's which isn't as advanced as Hakke Seal/Shikka Fuujin considering we have fodder Suna ninja being able to use Fuuinjutsu capable of sealing the Tensei, let alone a Fuuinjutsu master like Minato 




But anyway I don't mind humoring your request anyway:

There are many ways I can see Itachi being >= to Minato.


If were just talking about being a all around Equivalent Ninja than if we start seeing Yata Mirror Deflect things like Juubi/Kyuubi Bijuu Bombs and Totsuka Sword is demonstrated as capable sealing entities of high volumes of chakra like Kyuubi, Juubi or BM Naruto. I would consider Healthy Itachi assuming Healthy Itachi chakra levels don't fall that far off rom Minato's, roughly equivalent to Base Minato. & I'd consider Edo Itachi stronger than Base Minato and equal to Edo Base Minato. 

He'd still need to show something else to make up for KCM though, how great of an improvement he'd have to show is difficult to say since we haven't seen much from Minato KCM aside from the obvious passive increase to a number of his stats and defense. So maybe if Itachi showed another powerful Sharingan Technique like the ability to utilize Izanagi for a decent period of time (talking a few minutes) than I'd consider him about equal to what Minato's shown with KCM so far. 

As for what Itachi would need to prove he's stronger than Minato. Well if he had the above things I already listed pretty much showing almost any S-Rank Jutsu beyond those things would give him the edge over Minato (except something like Rarikiri, because unfortunately that is the lamest of all S-Rank Jutsu). Or showing he actually was able to use Koto Crow in battle and not just as a trap would also more than work here.

So yeah there is really a ton of shit Itachi could show that could place him above Minato in my book.
And honestly think it's plausible this stuff could be revealed for itachi, though it all seems unlikely at this point.

With that said if Minato starts showing new really impressive shit than I'd have to reevaluate again. And that's kind of where the problem lies it seems like Itachi is pretty much done in the manga and spent his pay load so to speak during his time as an Edo, while Minato is still around and has great potential to show new impressive shit. At this point Itachi kind of has to rely on statements, flashbacks, or possibly indirect showings if Sasuke gets Totsuka & Yata Mirror. So to me it's less likely for Itachi to progress to the point where he's equal or stronger than Minato, than it is for Minato to continue to increase the gap; though anything could happen & I could be wrong (I didn't expect Itachi would be revived as an Edo for instance).

So to recap:

For Itachi to be equivalent Base Minato or Edo Itachi to be Equivalent to Edo Minato:


*Spoiler*: __ 



-Yata Mirror can Deflect Kyuubi/Juubi Bijuu Bomb level attacks, I.E. living up to it's hype
-Totsuka can seal powerful entities Kyuubi, BM Naruto or Juubi, again living up to it's hype
- Healthy Itachi had a decent amount more stamina, I.E. some where near Minato's own stamina




For Edo Itachi to be equivalent to Current KCM Edo Minato:


*Spoiler*: __ 



-Yata Mirror can Deflect Kyuubi/Juubi Bijuu Bomb level attacks, I.E. living up to it's hype
-Totsuka can seal powerful entities Kyuubi, BM Naruto or Juubi, again living up to it's hype
- Healthy Itachi had a decent amount more stamina, I.E. some where near Minato's own stamina
- Another powerful ability Izanagi or in battle Koto Crow




For Edo Itachi to be stronger than Current KCM Edo Minato:


*Spoiler*: __ 



-Yata Mirror can Deflect Kyuubi/Juubi Bijuu Bomb level attacks, I.E. living up to it's hype
-Totsuka can seal powerful entities Kyuubi, BM Naruto or Juubi, again living up to it's hype
- Healthy Itachi had a decent amount more stamina, I.E. some where near Minato's own stamina
- Another powerful ability Izanagi,  in battle Koto Crow, or solid S-rank Jutsu
- A second new powerful ability Izanagi,  in battle Koto Crow, or solid S-rank Jutsu






Strategoob said:


> You'd probably argue that Minato's kunai cuts through Susano'o​



If he cuts through Juubiobito who just tanked megaton explosion and Hashirama's giant pagoda landing on him. I would argue his strength/slicing power is off the charts and it's very plausible he could slice through Susano'o & Yata mirror. Plausible not confirmed, considering Susano'o Stage 4's defense and Yata Mirrors remain untested. 

But no I greatly doubt we'll see Minato slice through Juubiobito, heck i'm expecting whatever he tries to fail just as much as the other Kages jutsu did. Best he can hope for is out speeding Juubiobito.



> Plus he has enough hype from Hashirama and Madara (Yin?) to give trolling about hypotheticals the sliver of validity it needs to give the insanity a touch of charm.


So your just trolling - no point addressing any of your other points, if you can't even give a straight answer to power that would allow Minato to be stronger than itachi.



Rain said:


> When/If Minato shows a viable and reliable defense against Itachi's genjutsu, i will admit that he indeed is stronger fighter of the two.


Well he's already shown one in the form of his speed. He's also shown another one via the fact that he can drawn on Kyuubi Chakra to break him out.  Summons and KB also don't hurt and nether do KCM sensing.  So basically he's already stronger than according to you.

Unless by reliable you don't actually mean reliable, which simply means he has a counter (or in his multiple) that are dependable in almost every situation, but rather mean he has outright immunity to Itachi's Genjutsu which is something totally different. An outright immunity would be where no matter the situation or Genjutsu used , Minato could be in bed sleeping when Itachi cast Tsukuyomi on him, it wouldn't work. And if that's what your looking for than basically no one is ever going to be beyond Itachi's level in your eyes even Rikudo because Kishi is never going to demonstrate Itachi attempting every possible means of casting Genjutsu on someone in every possibly scenario as that would be unnecessarily time consuming and pointless.​


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## trance (Jul 19, 2013)

kellzfresh said:


> you probably forgot sasuke said kirin goes at the speed of light, u need to read the manga more son.



So, by your logic, Haku can also go at the speed of light in his mirrors and Lee intercepted him.

It's official, we have FTL Rock Lee.


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## tanman (Jul 19, 2013)

@ Turrin

I was never interested in what Itachi would have to do to demonstrate his superiority. I didn't know you were either. I thought you were using that question to criticize Itachi supporters, and ultimately asking for scenarios in which Itachi fans would think Minato could beat Itachi.

I just wanted you to read my post to get my perspective on things.


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Eh, KCM Minato could definitely blitz, but I also definitely think Itachi has a really nice tool in the form of finger genjutsu, which could help land eye contact after Minato snaps out.
> 
> Karasu Bunshin also seem really exceptional in shocking opponents into eye contact, or at least that's what Itachi did with Sasuke and seemed quite effective in getting an upperhand against Sage Kabuto.​




If I were Minato, I would use the speed advantage to take control of the ebb & flow of the battle. Basically, I would always stay behind Itachi to prevent him from maintaining focus, using my own Clonejutsu to counteract Itachi's. I assume Minato is proficient in clone feints, considering his Jutsu execution speed & intelligence are comparable to Itachi's own, and his flicker is probably faster.  Itachi can't really do anything about Minato spreading tags, so that makes the aforementioned strategy very easy to apply. 

Multi clone techniques could also be hell for Itachi's visual Jutsu, though Minato probably isn't that type of guy. Though he certainly has the Chakra capacity, and 50 things out on the battlefield that can use Hiraishin spell doom for Itachi unless he turtles up inside Susano'o, and that would just rapidly deplete his reserves.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 19, 2013)

Trance said:


> So, by your logic, Haku can also go at the speed of light in his mirrors and Lee intercepted him.
> 
> It's official, we have FTL Rock Lee.



Haku's greatest speed is moving from mirror to mirror without interacting with anything else. He does in fact move at the speed of light like this because that is how he appears in all mirrors simultaneously. In order to interact with his surroundings, he has to slow down, but his attacking speed is such that he appears to strike from all directions at once before a droplet of water from his mirrors can reach the ground. However, he slows down measurably as he tires, and the technique is rather taxing while his stamina is quite low. His slowest mirror movement is when he moves from a mirror or to a mirror but where either the starting point or the destination is not a mirror. His speed in this state is sufficient to travel a reasonable distance to intercept Part I Kakashi's close range Raikiri charge at Zabuza while also taking out his dog summoning scroll, with Haku preparing the mirror only after Kakashi began to move. 

His base speed is roughly comparable to Kakashi's at the start of Part I.


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## Trojan (Jul 19, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Still waiting for the panels where the manga calls Itachi and Minato equals.



you may wait forever.


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## trance (Jul 19, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Haku's greatest speed is moving from mirror to mirror without interacting with anything else. He does in fact move at the speed of light like this because that is how he appears in all mirrors simultaneously. In order to interact with his surroundings, he has to slow down, but his attacking speed is such that he appears to strike from all directions at once before a droplet of water from his mirrors can reach the ground. However, he slows down measurably as he tires, and the technique is rather taxing while his stamina is quite low. His slowest mirror movement is when he moves from a mirror or to a mirror but where either the starting point or the destination is not a mirror. His speed in this state is sufficient to travel a reasonable distance to intercept Part I Kakashi's close range Raikiri charge at Zabuza while also taking out his dog summoning scroll, with Haku preparing the mirror only after Kakashi began to move.
> 
> His base speed is roughly comparable to Kakashi's at the start of Part I.



That's hyperbole. His mirror to mirror traveling speed isn't lightspeed. He's not lightspeed in anyway. Nothing in the Narutoverse is.

Kizaru from One Piece can *become* light itself but it's still controversial if he's infact as fast as light.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Still waiting for the panels where the manga calls Itachi and Minato equals.



Equals?

I don't remember Minato being called completely invincible.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Equals?
> 
> I don't remember Minato being called completely invincible.


I don't remember Itachi being called unsurpassable. I don't remember Itachi being called a once in a decade genius. I don't remember Itachi creating a technique like the Rasengan just by observing the Bijudama. I don't remember Itachi getting hyped up the wazoo.

Itachi isn't even in the same ballpark.


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## Vice (Jul 19, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Equals?
> 
> I don't remember Minato being called completely invincible.



No, he was just called a potential child of prophecy.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 19, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> the Bijudama. I don't remember Itachi getting hyped up the wazoo.



Just gonna highlight this post. I'll be getting back to this in a few hours


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## Turrin (Jul 19, 2013)

tanman said:


> This is an essential point in the debate that a lot of people forget.


Actually the issue is not reaction speed when it comes to difficult to land Sharingan Genjutsu on high speed opponents. It's not like A is reacting every-time that an Uchiha goes to use Genjutsu and avoiding eye contact, how could he be when there are no visible warning signs to the utilization of Sharingan Genjutsu & he does not have some advanced insight ability like chakra sensing, Sharingan, Byakugan, etc...

Instead the problem is movement speed. For an Uchiha to cast a Sharingan Genjutsu they have to first make eye contact and than actually cast the Genjutsu. So an Uchiha has to have time to process that eye contact has been made and than more time to cast the illusion, which happens quickly and is why most levels of speed aren't a problem, but we're not talking about most levels of speed we're talking about the absolute best of the best. Another problem is that the casting of Genjutsu can be interrupted by caster being attacked.

So the problem is that when going up against a top speedster it's hard to make eye contact at all since they will be moving at such a speed where they are darting in and out of an Uchiha's field of vision. Than if eye contact is made they are probably going to move out of the position where eye is successful or launch an attack before an Uchiha gets a chance to execute the Genjutsu, both of which would also prevent the Genjutsu from being cast. 

That's why Madara held Raikage down thus stopping his movement before casting his illusion, if it was about simply reacting Raikage could have still closed his eyes thus avoiding the illusion, but again it's about movement speed not reaction speed.

In Minato's case he is even more difficult to land an illusion on than Raikage because he can move about faster than Raikage with FTG & has KB thus creating multiple targets an Uchiha having to account for. Also unlike the Raikage if someone attempted to hold Minato down to cast an illusion he could just escape with FTG. Additionally now that he has KCM even his base speed and shunshin should logically excel Raikage's considering that the KCM power up improved Naruto's speed to be beyond Raikage's and Base Minato is faster than Base Naruto by a mile. So Minato & even more so KCM Minato would insanely difficult to land an illusion on.

That's not to say it's impossible as perhaps Minato would make a mistake and stand still w/o moving for to long a period of time w/o a KB or Summons out & Itachi could land Tsukuyomi than, but it's also possible that if Itachi messed up enough he could loose out to a technique that typically wouldn't get him ether, so I kind of find this unlikely possibility a little pointless other than if someone was simply arguing that Minato might only win 9/10 battles against Itachi, because he might fuck up really badly one time and get hit by Genjutsu. 

However there is also the issue beyond speed now with KCM of the fact that Minato could probably break himself out by just drawing on the Kyuubi chakra he has stored in him to disrupt his chakra flow. However this may or may not work for Tsukuyomi, but it's just another thing that makes the Genjutsu defeat even more unlikely nowadays.



tanman said:


> @ Turrin
> 
> I was never interested in what Itachi would have to do to demonstrate his superiority. I didn't know you were either. I thought you were using that question to criticize Itachi supporters, and ultimately asking for scenarios in which Itachi fans would think Minato could beat Itachi.
> 
> I just wanted you to read my post to get my perspective on things.



No I was basically asking what Minato would have to display for Itachi-fans to conclude he was stronger than Itachi, considering I constantly see threads with Itachi-fans arguing Itachi is equal to Minato, than Minato gets a new massive power up like KCM, and then once again we have Itachi-fans (many times the same ones) posting threads about how Itachi is still equal to Minato, even though that doesn't follow logically since if Itachi was equal to Minato before the new power up, he should be inferior afterwards. 

So my question was could Minato ever get a power up that would make them conclude he's stronger. Like if he got BM, SM, a Jutsu powerful enough to damage Juubiobito, pretty much anything.

Because like I said and showed, I know what would make me acknowledge Itachi as equal or superior to Minato, but to me most Itachi-fans don't seem to know or ever want to acknowledge that.

As for a scenario where current Itachi can beat Minato, like I said in my response to you about Minato versus Genjutsu I could see a very unlikely scenario accuring where Minato fucks up really badly and gets hit by Tsukuyomi. But that's pretty much the only scenario I can see where Itachi wins given his current display and don't find it likely. If we're talking Edo Itachi than I could perhaps see another unlikely scenario where Minato is forced to use Shikka Fuujin if Hakke Seal, Toad Gourd, Frog Song, and any other Fuuinjutsu for some reason can't work, in which case it would ether be a draw or a win at extreme difficulty for Minato depending on how one see's Shiki Fuujin.

Of course this is assuming fair conditions, on the right battlefield, right knowledge, and starting distance there may be a few other scenarios where Itachi could win with his current display, but the conditions would have to be slanted insanely in Itachi's favor.

And bare in mind this is just my honest opinion, I have no particular bias for Minato as I don't even enjoy his character much, & I also have no problem saying that Minato beats my actual favorites characters like Hanzo & J-man just as bad if not worse than he does Itachi.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I don't remember Itachi being called unsurpassable.



That's a subset of being "completely invincible," bra.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I don't remember Itachi being called a once in a decade genius.



Itachi was a kid when he humiliated a once-in-a-decade genius. Orochimaru, in turn, said Sasuke put him to shame in terms of being a genius and yet acknowledged that he only targeted Sasuke because he was slower in growth.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I don't remember Itachi creating a technique like the Rasengan just by observing the Bijudama.



Itachi created trap fūinjutsu and transplated dōjutsu that's much cooler than the Rasengan, in my opinion. He's also credited with having a very large scale genjutsu unique to him, and presumably his own creation.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I don't remember Itachi getting hyped up the wazoo.



The God of Shinobi saying that Itachi put him to shame in terms of being a shinobi will have to do, _I guess._ Madara's clone/Yin saying that Itachi was completely invincible is a good runner-up.


----------



## trance (Jul 19, 2013)

This thread.


----------



## Ersa (Jul 19, 2013)

Itachi's stamina is not great but it's also greatly downplayed. The dude managed to use all his MS techniques, clones and regular techniques while sick and on his death-bed. I'm sure without his sickness and being in a better state Itachi will have stamina possibly comparable to MS Sasuke. Not to mention he's just so efficient at conserving chakra which is one reason why Edo Itachi is so dangerous, he does not have to hold back shit. Clones, endless Amaterasu spam, Tsukiyomi whenever he can catch them, V4 Susanoo + Yata endlessly. The way I see it is.

KCM Minato >= Edo Itachi w/ Koto Crow > Base Minato = Edo Itachi > Healthy Itachi. 

And Jiraiya (SM) is no match for any Itachi bar Sick Itachi, I'd go as far as to argue Edo could take out 2 Jiraiyas with relative ease but that's just me.


----------



## narutoish (Jul 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> If I were Minato, I would use the speed advantage to take control of the ebb & flow of the battle. Basically, I would always stay behind Itachi to prevent him from maintaining focus, using my own Clonejutsu to counteract Itachi's. I assume Minato is proficient in clone feints, considering his Jutsu execution speed & intelligence are comparable to Itachi's own, and his flicker is probably faster.  Itachi can't really do anything about Minato spreading tags, so that makes the aforementioned strategy very easy to apply.



That would be a good strategy but the problem is that minato's base speed might not be able to control the flow of battle, to do that he needs FTG, meaning he would be moving from one mark to another, making him a bit predictable; however that isn't even the biggest problem, see itachi was able to create a clone while engaging Sasuke in a shurikin battle, and his sharingan couldn't even see through it, what's to say that itachi can't do the same to minato? So by your strategy, minato will attack a clone from behind, while the real itachi can attack from point blank.



> Multi clone techniques could also be hell for Itachi's visual Jutsu, though Minato probably isn't that type of guy. Though he certainly has the Chakra capacity, and 50 things out on the battlefield that can use Hiraishin spell doom for Itachi unless he turtles up inside Susano'o, and that would just rapidly deplete his reserves.



But in character minato goes in for the kill right off the bat.

Itachi can easily trap minato in a genjutsu through a clone or a crow, and that one small opening will be all he needs.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 19, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I assume Minato is proficient in clone feints, considering his Jutsu execution speed & intelligence are comparable to Itachi's own, and his flicker is probably faster.  Itachi can't really do anything about Minato spreading tags, so that makes the aforementioned strategy very easy to apply.



That's definitely true, but that's also time where Itachi can hide or relocate to a more advantageous area where Hiraishin seals aren't flanking him. For instance, on water, Itachi would be much harder to take down for Minato.



Rocky said:


> Multi clone techniques could also be hell for Itachi's visual Jutsu, though Minato probably isn't that type of guy. Though he certainly has the Chakra capacity



No arguments from me here.


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 19, 2013)

Ahhh, dat Minato.


----------



## Chaotic Gangsta (Jul 19, 2013)

ZE said:


> Close to it. He'll be even faster than before. So it will be close to impossible to keep track of his movements. Itachi won't know for most of the time where Minato will be, much less make eye contact with him.




No, not close to it. Have you seen Minato in this fight? He's always making eye contact with his enemies. He's not just going to NOT look at Itachi, he doesn't do that with anyone. KCM again does NOT make him exempt from Genjutsu. He WILL look at Itachi & you know what that means. He doesn't just look away from his opponents. As fast as A is he got trapped in a Genjutsu  



Trance said:


> What?
> 
> Look at what KCM did for Naruto. It gave him incredible strength and speed (enough to make him faster than V2 Ei), negative emotion sensing (which even the best sensor can't do), chakra arms that are very versatile, and great damage protection (Roshi's Yoton no Yoroi barely burned him). It boosted Naruto from high Jōnin level (roughly) to on par with and above most Kages.
> 
> Now, imagine what it can do for Minato who is already considered one of the stronger Kages?



That's easily presumable. He's yet to exhibit anything extraordinary though. I'm going off of what I've seen. Unless Minato uses these abilities, he doesn't have 'em. Tsunade's a Senju yet cannot use the Mokuton or how The CS will work for some & others just succumb to it & eventually die off. Just 'cause it works for some people doesn't mean it'll work for another


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## Sykonaut (Jul 20, 2013)

tanman said:


> Grimmjowsensei said:
> 
> 
> > Minato doesn't have A's reaction speed though(with the raiton shround ofc).
> ...


Minato reacted in time to dodge A's top speed and to make immediate counterattack.


----------



## Jagger (Jul 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You're kidding right.


NF never jokes about neither Minato or Itachi. *Never.*

Just ask Strategoob.


----------



## Jagger (Jul 20, 2013)

I don't know what's more funny; OP or the people taking it seriously.


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 20, 2013)

Trance said:


> That's hyperbole. His mirror to mirror traveling speed isn't lightspeed. He's not lightspeed in anyway. Nothing in the Narutoverse is.



Haku is literally _reflecting_ his own body from mirror to mirror. Otherwise, how could he appear in all the mirrors, even though they don't all face each other? If you move in time with light reflecting, then you move at light speed. Relax, that isn't his attacking speed.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 20, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I don't remember Itachi getting hyped up the wazoo.





The Prodigy said:


> Just gonna highlight this post. I'll be getting back to this in a few hours



Fodder Academy teacher hyping Itachi.
Mikoto calling Itachi special.
Orochimaru saying attaining Itachi's body is an impossible dream and he's even stronger than himself.
Kisame implying Itachi is able to take on jiriaya and questions why he's running. 
Sasuke stating it would be impossible for him and Oro to take Itachi.
Dangerous eyes.
What in the world is he?
What great eye power
All of your jutsu are ineffective in front of these eyes
True art...
Obito stating - even in death Itachi never ceases to amaze him.
Obito in his head, saying he had to keep secrets from Itachi or he would've been killed by him. 
Danzou states Sasuke's genjutsu is nothing compared to Itachi's.
Itachi said to be the only one capable of long range genjutsu control.
Kabuto saying he's on another level.
Blindspots.
More than strong.
The ability to read people, different from the other Uchihas.
Famous even among Uchiha, the secrets, power to stop war.
UCHIHA ITACHI!!!!! 
You were Perfect!
Itachi saved the day!
Hero that saved the shinobi world!
At the age of 7, reasoning, wisdom on par with a Hokage
Better shinobi than me!

...Jeez...


----------



## BrokenBonds (Jul 20, 2013)

I'm sorry but Minato is obviously stronger than Itachi.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 20, 2013)

Who _really_ thinks Minato has a chance against Itachi?


*Spoiler*: __


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 20, 2013)

Chaotic Gangsta said:


> No, not close to it. Have you seen Minato in this fight? He's always making eye contact with his enemies.
> 
> He's not just going to NOT look at Itachi, he doesn't do that with anyone. KCM again does NOT make him exempt from Genjutsu.



*I would like you to prove that Minato was actually making an "eye contact".Kishi doesn't bother drawing anything different than the usual, even when we know a character is actively avoiding eye contact.

With Naruto for example, when he was successfully avoiding Itachi's eyes, forcing him to resort to finger and crow tricks, where was Naruto looking?Can you tell me?




			He WILL look at Itachi & you know what that means. He doesn't just look away from his opponents.
		
Click to expand...


I know what that means, but you don't seem to.Itachi doesn't auto cast his genjutsu the instant someone looks into his eye.Itachi has to realize what's happening and THEN cast the genjutsu before Minato moves away, which is next to impossible.







			As fast as A is he got trapped in a Genjutsu 

Click to expand...


You are not serious are you?Are you trying to kill your own argument?

Not only was Ei not moving, LIKE AT ALL, Kishi felt the need to specifically draw him not even paying attention to his MULTIPLE ENEMIES and instead focus COMPLETELY on Tsunade and the trouble she was in:


Better shinobi than me!
Better shinobi than me!




			That's easily presumable. He's yet to exhibit anything extraordinary though. I'm going off of what I've seen. Unless Minato uses these abilities, he doesn't have 'em. Tsunade's a Senju yet cannot use the Mokuton or how The CS will work for some & others just succumb to it & eventually die off. Just 'cause it works for some people doesn't mean it'll work for another 

Click to expand...


Now that's just silly.Why would Kishi give Minato KCM if it doesn't improve him?

Naruto hasn't done anything "extraordinary"  in KCM lately, either.*


----------



## Yagura (Jul 20, 2013)

BrokenBonds said:


> I'm sorry but Minato is obviously stronger than Itachi.



Oh, what's that your saying? Minato still has no defense against genjutsu or a way to bust Susano'o?


In that case...


He gets solo'd, plain and simple. Into the bottle with him.


----------



## Sans (Jul 20, 2013)

The Prodigy said:


> Fodder Academy teacher hyping Itachi.
> Mikoto calling Itachi special.
> Orochimaru saying attaining Itachi's body is an impossible dream and he's even stronger than himself.
> Kisame implying Itachi is able to take on jiriaya and questions why he's running.
> ...



You missed Zetsu describing Itachi as "invincible" when wielding the Yata and Totsuka, as well as a statement that Nagato and Itachi were Kabuto's strongest Edo Tensei (made before Madara was summoned.)


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 20, 2013)

Yagura said:


> Oh, what's that your saying? Minato still has no defense against genjutsu or a way to bust Susano'o?
> 
> 
> In that case...
> ...



*1.I would really like to see Itachi catching someone that fast in genjutsu.Even the legendary Madara had to work to put Ei in genjutsu, waiting till Ei was distracted and paying no attention whatsoever to him.

2.Why would Minato need to bust out Susano?We've seen that separating it's user from it, is a viable option as shown us by Gaara.For Minato it will be a child's play considering:

Minato was able to teleport himself and Kurama (squashed by Gamabunta) away, to two different locations, without touching Kurama and without moving Gamabunta away from it's original position.



*


----------



## ? (Jul 20, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I'm pretty sure he's just going to use Hiraishin to save Naruto and Sasuke since Obito _is_ already tagged.
> 
> 
> 
> Besides, I think it's more probable that Obito is going to be stopped mostly by Naruto after Minato gives up Kurama's chakra, maybe with Sasuke getting giant Susano'o to keep up.​





tanman said:


> I don't think Minato is dumb enough to believe that his jutsu will kill Juubito.
> Certainly he plans on examining it for weaknesses as he uses the technique to defend the kids.
> 
> We'll see. But it has been nine weeks since we first saw his KCM, and he hasn't exactly kept to the background. We have to start judging his feats sometime. Right now, durability is the only remotely apparent change.



While he's in this state...i'll defeat him!   

He clearly thinks this new jutsu will do more than save Naruto and Sasuke or examine for weaknesses.

Although his justu will not beat Juubito, the fact that Minato thinks it is strong enough to defeat him even after witnessing how much of a tank Juubito is shows that this attack is very powerful, and shouldn't be overlooked.


----------



## Sykonaut (Jul 20, 2013)

Yagura said:


> Oh, what's that your saying? Minato still has no defense against genjutsu or a way to bust Susano'o?
> 
> 
> In that case...
> ...


Minato doesn't need to bust Susano'o. He can teleport inside Susano'o by placing Hiraishin mark or a _kunai_ close to Susano'o.


----------



## Trojan (Jul 20, 2013)

Can we say that Itachi is also stronger than Hashirama because he does not have anything against
the Genjutsu whatsoever? and He also does not have the speed to dodge the Amaterasu? 

and the Yata mirror can deflect ALL jutsus including the 10tails' TBB according to some of his fans
so even the Buddha is nothing compare to that sasuanoo. @.@


----------



## Krippy (Jul 20, 2013)

lol at Kirin being as fast as light. Lighting is like Mach 300 or something.



Strategoob said:


> I'm pretty sure he's just going to use Hiraishin to save Naruto and Sasuke since Obito _is_ already tagged.
> 
> 
> 
> Besides, I think it's more probable that Obito is going to be stopped mostly by Naruto after Minato gives up Kurama's chakra, maybe with Sasuke getting giant Susano'o to keep up.​



Don't know where people get this idea that the Yin half of Kurama is suddenly gonna allow him to contend with someone who won't even flinch from anything in Naruto's arsenal.


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## tanman (Jul 20, 2013)

Sykonaut said:


> Minato reacted in time to dodge A's top speed and to make immediate counterattack.



Not the same thing.


----------



## KnightGhost (Jul 20, 2013)

Itachi wins because it almost 700 chaps deep and Minato still has no Genjsutu Defence.

Thats a how Itachi will and always win..


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## ImSerious (Jul 20, 2013)

This thread has gone on long enough. I think we all agree that minato is simply on another level.


Locking.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 20, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> Itachi wins because it almost 700 chaps deep and Minato still has no Genjsutu Defence.
> 
> Thats a how Itachi will and always win..


Minato's too fast for the Sharingan, which means too fast for Itachi's genjutsu. And dear god, you believe a Hokage hailed as a genius that appears once in a generation, who fucking had a flee on sight order WOULDN'T have a genjutsu defense? And that Itachi's genjutsu superior, Obito, wouldn't have done so if that was the case?


----------



## trance (Jul 20, 2013)

Minato vs. Itachi threads need to be banned. They kill brain cells.


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## narutoish (Jul 20, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> This thread has gone on long enough. I think we all agree that minato is simply on another level.
> 
> 
> Locking.



Doesn't matter what level you are on when you don't have the tools to deal with itachi, you lose. For example base itachi might be on a lower level compared to orochimaru but he still one-paneled him.

Minato is better suited to fight some opponents itachi can't win against, but between the two of them itachi wins just because he has better tools for the fight.


----------



## tanman (Jul 20, 2013)

I really despise fans of both of these characters. 
Itachi wankers suffer from terrible databookiness, martyrdom, and self-alienation. 
Minato wankers suffer from unfounded pride and deep sense of their own infallibility.

Perfect opposites. Perfect hateable opposites.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 20, 2013)

I had always said that Minato was always slightly superior to Itachi however after the recent chapters I think the gap has enchaned just a bit

Basically...

Prior to Minato being summoned...
Minata > Itachi by a small margin

Currently...
Minato > Itachi  ...margin has increased
KCM Minato > Itachi...well that just puts him on a completly different level


----------



## Lawrence777 (Jul 20, 2013)

I don't think it's so black and white.

It's silly to say "well this or that guy is stronger" because neither of these characters beat each other in all possible circumstances. There are circumstances and conditions under which both these characters would beat the other.

It's probably better to just highlight the given scenarios wherein a certain party would win, and then debate those scenario's probability of actually occurring. 

Minato would win if he can outlast Itachi. This isn't _that _hard to do I think because he should be able to dodge the Totsuka and even Amaterasu. He has to worry about genjutsu however.

Itachi would win if he can genjutsu Minato. This isn't that hard to do either because Itachi always uses genjutsu and has different ways of employing it that Minato would likely not be aware to look out for.

_Both_ those scenarios can _definitely_ take place so I don't see how anyone can come to the conclusion the other guy loses 100% of the time.


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## ImSerious (Jul 20, 2013)

narutoish said:


> Doesn't matter what level you are on when you don't have the tools to deal with itachi, you lose. For example base itachi might be on a lower level compared to orochimaru but he still one-paneled him.
> 
> Minato is better suited to fight some opponents itachi can't win against, but between the two of them itachi wins just because he has better tools for the fight.



whatever helps you sleep at night bro. lol.


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## narutoish (Jul 20, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> whatever helps you sleep at night bro. lol.



I will sleeping well knowing you didn't have a response and that itachi wins more times then not.


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## ImSerious (Jul 20, 2013)

im not gonna waste my time explaining how minato > itachi to an itachifan lol.


talk about talking to a wall


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## narutoish (Jul 20, 2013)

I never said you have to explain to me how minato>itachi, just explain how minato wins more times then itachi, and if you can't explain that, then don't bother calling me an itachi fan


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## ImSerious (Jul 20, 2013)

refer to my first post you quoted for your answer.


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## trance (Jul 20, 2013)

tanman said:


> I really despise fans of both of these characters.
> Itachi wankers suffer from terrible databookiness, martyrdom, and self-alienation.
> Minato wankers suffer from unfounded pride and deep sense of their own infallibility.
> 
> Perfect opposites. Perfect hateable opposites.



This.

/thread. It's worse than the cancerdome.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 20, 2013)

tanman said:


> Itachi wankers suffer from terrible databookiness, martyrdom, and self-alienation.



DON'T PRETEND TO KNOW MY PAIN!



tanman said:


> Perfect opposites. Perfect hateable opposites.



**


----------



## Turrin (Jul 20, 2013)

tanman said:


> I really despise fans of both of these characters.
> Itachi wankers suffer from terrible databookiness, martyrdom, and self-alienation.
> Minato wankers suffer from unfounded pride and deep sense of their own infallibility.
> 
> Perfect opposites. Perfect hateable opposites.


LOL this is pretty funny.


----------



## Sans (Jul 20, 2013)

What about an Itachitard who thinks Minato wins the fight?


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## ImSerious (Jul 20, 2013)

Komnenos knows whats up


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## Jagger (Jul 20, 2013)

I'm coming back to this thread when Minato gets sliced in half the same way Itachi was so fanboys shut up for a while.


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 20, 2013)

Jagger said:


> I'm coming back to this thread when Minato gets sliced in half the same way Itachi was so fanboys shut up for a while.



Minato getting sliced in half? Shino has better chances of blitzing Ay.


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## ImSerious (Jul 20, 2013)

Jagger said:


> I'm coming back to this thread when Minato gets sliced in half the same way Itachi was so fanboys shut up for a while.



So you wont come back then? Cool


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## Sadgoob (Jul 20, 2013)

Yeah, I don't see Minato getting sliced in half, even though IMO Itachi purposefully did so in order for Kabuto to grab his sword and recreate the events to trigger to Izanami.

He did say "I will start Izanami," then deactivated Susano'o, and didn't show so much as an exclamation mark after being cut in half and having his sword taken (_the_ prerequisite in this case.)

With that said, I acknowledge Minato's godliness as well.​


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 21, 2013)

I have always seen Itachi as a bad match up for Minato and that is because of Genjutsu. If Minato faced Kurenai's genjutsu, I have no doubt that he would either be able to break it or defend against it or even avoid it. Kurenai only has one method while Itachi has many methods to catch you in genjutsu. That is why without knowledge its very difficult to argue for said characters on avoiding getting hit by his genjutsu. Almost all characters will get hit by Itachi's genjutsu without knowledge. Its basically difficult to fight someone like Itachi without looking into his eye, even then Itachi can trick his opponent to look at his finger.


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## Jak N Blak (Jul 21, 2013)

GTFO. Minato is Hashirama level right now.


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## Kai (Jul 21, 2013)

Minato was always stronger imo (very slightly so, before), but at least a sound case could have been made in the past on how they are both comparable.

With Kage Bunshin and KCM thrown in Minato's favor now it's not even a contest. I also must question the genuinity of the people who try and preach the idea that they are 'equal' when we know these two characters were "arguably equals" long before these revelations.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 21, 2013)

06 Itachitard reporting in.

Minato BAMFlashes. Simple as that.


----------



## narutoish (Jul 21, 2013)

KCM doesn't help with genjutsu and neither does any of other pouwerups of minato.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 21, 2013)

narutoish said:


> KCM doesn't help with genjutsu and neither does any of other pouwerups of minato.



*It does help actually.You have to consider that the only time a fast character was caught in genjutsu, was only when the author had to go through the trouble of specifically drawing him standing completely still and not even paying attention to his opponent but instead focusing on his comrades.

That and Itachi's genjutsu feats are against mostly stationary opponents, with some of them not even trying to avoid eye contact.

*


----------



## narutoish (Jul 21, 2013)

Deshi Basara said:


> *It does help actually.You have to consider that the only time a fast character was caught in genjutsu, was only when the author had to go through the trouble of specifically drawing him standing completely still and not even paying attention to his opponent but instead focusing on his comrades.
> 
> That and Itachi's genjutsu feats are against mostly stationary opponents, with some of them not even trying to avoid eye contact.
> 
> *



Minato while being fast is not moving constantly, add that to the fact that he doesn't avoid eye contact means a sure genjutsu. IC itachi almost always starts with a genjutsu and minato doesnt start out moving, and that one moment is all that itachi needs. Also, while I know that minato is fast, itachi was able to genJustu bee who is pretty fast himself, while going CQC against him. 

Every character is stationary in the beginning of the battle, and no one is moving constantly, minato usually let's his opponents come to him, or his kunais. 

Btw I like your sig.


----------



## trance (Jul 21, 2013)

narutoish said:


> Minato while being fast is not moving constantly, add that to the fact that he doesn't avoid eye contact means a sure genjutsu. IC itachi almost always starts with a genjutsu and minato doesnt start out moving, and that one moment is all that itachi needs. Also, while I know that minato is fast, itachi was able to genJustu bee who is pretty fast himself, while going CQC against him.
> 
> Every character is stationary in the beginning of the battle, and no one is moving constantly, minato usually let's his opponents come to him, or his kunais.
> 
> Btw I like your sig.



If it were that easy, why didn't Madara use genjutsu against Hashirama (or any of the Five Kage) or why didn't Obito use it against MInato or why didn't Itachi use it against Kabuto (he did put him in a genjutsu but it was Izanami)?


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## Punished Pathos (Jul 21, 2013)

kellzfresh said:


> Hi, im new here



You're a dupe, you are Yuri Yuki. 

Itachi's Genjutsu won't work on Sasuke, Obito and Madara.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 21, 2013)

narutoish said:


> Btw I like your sig.



*Well, thank you.



narutoish said:



			Minato while being fast is not moving constantly, add that to the fact that he doesn't avoid eye contact means a sure genjutsu. IC itachi almost always starts with a genjutsu and minato doesnt start out moving, and that one moment is all that itachi needs. Also, while I know that minato is fast, itachi was able to genJustu bee who is pretty fast himself, while going CQC against him. 

Every character is stationary in the beginning of the battle, and no one is moving constantly, minato usually let's his opponents come to him, or his kunais. 

Btw I like your sig.
		
Click to expand...


1.So you basically agree that KCM or Minato's speed in general is helpful against genjutsu since you have him get caught when he's not moving?


2.I doubt Minato is not gonna avoid eye contact, the only reason he wouldn't, is if he has a sure counter or believes himself too fast for it.He is a genius after all.

And more, when Naruto was avoiding eye contact only to fall victim to Itachi's finger and crow tricks, Kishi didn't bother drawing panels with Naruto looking towards Itachi's lower body or anything out of the ordinary, so we can't tell for sure that Minato doesn't avoid eye contact either.


3.Bee wasn't using his speed when he got caught:

pictures
pictures
pictures

and besides, considering he has a Bijuu that can bail him out of most genjutsu, he probably got careless.


4.Do you mean that one incident with Ei?Minato already knew of him by reputation so that probably played a part.Otherwise Minato is the pursuer.*


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## Sadgoob (Jul 21, 2013)

Kai said:


> Minato was always stronger imo (very slightly so, before)



The people that argued for Minato did so primarily from portrayal up until KCM was revealed. And Minato doesn't even have better portrayal or hype unless you ignore some of Itachi's own.

Minato being put in finger or crow genjutsu, then having Itachi segue that to Tsukuyomi or some other finisher was and is basically foolproof against Minato without knowledge.​


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## Trojan (Jul 21, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> I don't think it's so black and white.
> 
> It's silly to say "well this or that guy is stronger" because neither of these characters beat each other in all possible circumstances. There are circumstances and conditions under which both these characters would beat the other.
> 
> ...



Genjutsu does not effect Minato because of Kurama's chakra, even IF Itachi could put him
under the Genjutsu, it won't work.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The people that argued for Minato did so primarily from portrayal up until KCM was revealed. And Minato doesn't even have better portrayal or hype unless you ignore some of Itachi's own.
> 
> Minato being put in finger or crow genjutsu, then having Itachi segue that to Tsukuyomi or some other finisher was and is basically foolproof against Minato without knowledge.​



*That's all well and good, except for the fact that Itachi's finger and crow tricks don't have the feats and the hype to trouble someone of Minato's level.

If that strategy was so effective, why wasn't it used to own Kabuto before he had the chance to hide and go into Sage Mode?Or ANYONE else in the entire manga, besides Base Naruto?

And even if Minato is put into  finger genjutsu, i don't see what's stopping him from teleporting immediately.After all, he is a sensor:

this 
this 

and will know something's off.


If we are going into fanboy mode, Minato throwing a kunai and teleporting anywhere around it, is a much more effective and proven tactic and will almost certainly result in a bamflash.
*


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 21, 2013)

IIRC, Jiraiya stated the user of the genjutsu must control the chakra of the opponent to work. You can't really control someone's chakra when they are moving like the Raikage, which is why Madara had to subdue him.


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## narutoish (Jul 21, 2013)

Deshi Basara said:


> *
> 
> 
> 1.So you basically agree that KCM or Minato's speed in general is helpful against genjutsu since you have him get caught when he's not moving?*


*

Well KCM naruto was still worried about itachi's genjutsu, also A is the only reason the speed vs genjutsu argument comes up but we know that minato needed FTG to handle A's speed, so it might help but it won't make him  immune.



			2.I doubt Minato is not gonna avoid eye contact, the only reason he wouldn't, is if he has a sure counter or believes himself too fast for it.He is a genius after all.
		
Click to expand...


Well it's an assumption since its not mentioned, also finger genjutsu still gets him.the problem is that itachi can cast the genjutsu in the beginning and not let minato know until he has exploited all of his abilities.




			And more, when Naruto was avoiding eye contact only to fall victim to Itachi's finger and crow tricks, Kishi didn't bother drawing panels with Naruto looking towards Itachi's lower body or anything out of the ordinary, so we can't tell for sure that Minato doesn't avoid eye contact either.
		
Click to expand...


Well naruto was shown to look at the finger.



			3.Bee wasn't using his speed when he got caught:

this 
this 
this
		
Click to expand...


Yes, that supports my earlier argument that you can't be using your speed all the times, thus minato won't be moving constantly.




			and besides, considering he has a Bijuu that can bail him out of most genjutsu, he probably got careless.
		
Click to expand...


Well so does naruto but he was still worried and he warned bee.




			4.Do you mean that one incident with Ei?Minato already knew of him by reputation so that probably played a part.Otherwise Minato is the pursuer.
		
Click to expand...

*
Yes you could be right, but still we know minato won't move until he has at least spread the kunais. And even then he will only use FTG when itachi gets close to a mark.



TorJaN said:


> Genjutsu does not effect Minato because of Kurama's chakra, even IF Itachi could put him
> under the Genjutsu, it won't work.


----------



## Yagura (Jul 21, 2013)

The only mildy impressive thing Minato has shown in KCM is Kage Bunshin, which most people already assumed he could do anyway.



He's just now catching up with a living Itachi, really.


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## narutoish (Jul 21, 2013)

Trance said:


> If it were that easy, why didn't Madara use genjutsu against Hashirama (or any of the Five Kage) or why didn't Obito use it against MInato or why didn't Itachi use it against Kabuto (he did put him in a genjutsu but it was Izanami)?



We see didn't the full battle of madara vs hashirama, obits was already controlling kurama and kabuto had his eyes closed ( he was fighting with his other senses)


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## trance (Jul 21, 2013)

Yagura said:


> The only mildy impressive thing Minato has shown in KCM is Kage Bunshin, which most people already assumed he could do anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> He's just now catching up with a living Itachi, really.



I'm sorry, I can't take your comment seriously with that avatar. 




narutoish said:


> We see didn't the full battle of madara vs hashirama, obits was already controlling kurama and kabuto had his eyes closed ( he was fighting with his other senses)



If Madara wanted to beat Hashirama (and that was goal), if we go by your logic, he should've just used genjutsu from the start as you imply Itachi can do against Minato instead of taking control of Kurama and doing it the hard way. Genjutsu is counted towards a shinobi's skill set.

And if Kabuto can close his eyes, tell me, what's stopping Minato?


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## Yagura (Jul 21, 2013)

Trance said:


> I'm sorry, I can't take your comment seriously with that avatar.



I get that a lot.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 21, 2013)

narutoish said:


> Well KCM naruto was still worried about itachi's genjutsu, also A is the only reason the speed vs genjutsu argument comes up but we know that minato needed FTG to handle A's speed, so it might help but it won't make him  immune.
> 
> 
> Well it's an assumption since its not mentioned, also finger genjutsu still gets him.the problem is that itachi can cast the genjutsu in the beginning and not let minato know until he has exploited all of his abilities.
> ...



*1. Naruto's warning only extended to Bee.And that Naruto, in that same fight was forgetting basic shit like Nagato being able to absorb jutsu.So his opinion in that exact fight, means less than zero.

And if Naruto was so worried about Itachi's eye genjutsu, why did he went to fight him face to face, why not use his giant ass long chakra arms and shit?

2. A)Genjutsu wasn't a problem for V1 Ei either, until the overkill distraction

B)Minato had already spread those kunai around, so why not use em?

Ei flat out admitted inferiority to Minato in speed and i doubt it only extended to Hirashin.He never recognized Obito for casually slipping through his fastest punch and teleporting around, so?


3.Minato is a sensor, plus finger genjutsu doesn't have the feats and hype to support any of that.


4.Was he really shown?Even then, what about all the other instances?Where was he shown looking then?


5.Wait, how does Bee's sword style fighting relate to Minato in any way?Minato doesn't stick around to duel, he flashes in with a kunai slash or rasengan and that's it.


6.I don't see why Minato will sit around and wait when Itachi is his only opponent.*


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## Trojan (Jul 21, 2013)

narutoish said:


>



you have a problem with that? 
re-watch B Vs Taka or B Vs Itachi, and you shall see how that works.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 21, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> you have a problem with that?
> re-watch B Vs Taka or B Vs Itachi, and you shall see how that works.



Bee has a separate entity in him to break him free. Minato just has the chakra, not the entity. Plus it was said that Itachi's Tsukuyomi would finish Bee if used.​


Deshi Basara said:


> That's all well and good, except for the fact that Itachi's finger and crow tricks don't have the feats and the hype to trouble someone of Minato's level.



Itachi's genjutsu skill in general has the necessary hype, but this sort of argument is what I meant in terms of portrayal vs feats. People argue it won't work on Minato just because of his level, not because Minato's shown solid counters or resistances.

When really, finger genjutsu is tough to see through because it mimics reality. And once seen through, you need to kai out of it. Moreover, even if it lasted a moment, that's enough time for Itachi to skillfully reposition for Tsukuyomi or whatever.

Itachi's fights were all against elite dōjutsu users, sages, and jinchūriki. And for the most part, Itachi was holding back in some capacity. Without those traits, people get shut down fast by Itachi e.g. Orochimaru, Deidara, etc.​


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## Trojan (Jul 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Bee has a separate entity in him to break him free. Minato just has the chakra, not the entity.​
> .[/indent]



and all what he needs IS the chakra. 
they are two different chakra and that what matters.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Bee has a separate entity in him to break him free. Minato just has the chakra, not the entity.​
> 
> 
> Itachi's genjutsu skill in general has the necessary hype, but this sort of argument is what I meant in terms of portrayal vs feats. People argue it won't work on Minato just because of his level, not because Minato's shown any sort of counter.
> ...



*All i see is fanboy hype with zero support from the manga itself.

As i said, if it was such an effective strategy, it's hype and feats wouldn't begin and end with Base Naruto.




			Itachi's fights were all against elite dōjutsu users, sages, and jinchūriki. And for the most part, Itachi was holding back in some capacity. Without those traits, people get shut down fast by Itachi e.g. Orochimaru, Deidara, etc.
		
Click to expand...


"Orochimaru, Deidara etc" were arrogant, clueless and stationary, i don't know why you bring em up.*


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## Sadgoob (Jul 21, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> and all what he needs IS the chakra.
> they are two different chakra and that what matters.



Nah, take Kabuto for example. He has tons of different people and chakras in him because of DNA modifications, but he still went to a lot of trouble to evade genjutsu. It's not a counter in itself.​


Deshi Basara said:


> All i see is fanboy hype with zero support from the manga itself.



And some might argue that Minato being immune to certain genjutsu techniques because of generalizing his level isn't much different. In any case, there's no need to be rude.​


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## Yagura (Jul 21, 2013)

Trance said:


> And if Kabuto can close his eyes, tell me, what's stopping Minato?



seriously? 




...and for the record, Hashirama is an established genjutsu user himself.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Anyway, there's no need to be rude.​



*Sorry, if i was rude.




And some might argue that saying Minato's immune to certain genjutsu techniques because of generalizing his level isn't much different.​

Click to expand...


Not really.No one argues that Kurenai stands a chance against Minato just because he lacks genjutsu feats.

Or that Hashirama will just need his darkness gen followed by some mokuton to finish off Minato.

Sorry, but im not giving Itachi that easy of a win over Minato, either.*


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## Sadgoob (Jul 21, 2013)

Deshi Basara said:


> Sorry, if i was rude.



Not a problem at all! You're definitely fun to talk with.​


Deshi Basara said:


> Not really.No one argues that Kurenai stands a chance against Minato just because he lacks genjutsu feats.



Alright, so there are a few differences though. First, Kurenai's genjutsu took a lot of time for her, remember? She needed Asuma to cover for her, but the genjutsu _was_ strong enough to capture Kisame. That dude would've been fucked by Asuma.

Kisame was ultimately saved by Itachi, however, and true to his jutsu speed, Itachi recast the Kurenai's genjutsu on her in no time. He needed no time. Secondly, Itachi has superior general skill and many other abilities to buy time against Minato, unlike Kurenai.

Lastly, Itachi has a variety of genjutsu methods and his holistic hype exceeds Kurenai both in genjutsu and in general. Comparing Itachi and Kurenai is like comparing Minato and Lee. They're both fast, right? Yeah. But not identically so. They're hardly comparable.​


Deshi Basara said:


> Or that Hashirama will just need his darkness gen followed by some mokuton to finish off Minato.



That genjutsu was extremely powerful, as evidenced by Hiruzen's inability to break through it despite being a genjutsu master himself. Itachi genjutsu hype exceeds Hashirama's own, so that should hint at Itachi's potential as the alpha genjutsu master.​


Deshi Basara said:


> Sorry, but im not giving Itachi that easy of a win over Minato, either.



I wouldn't call it easy... more opportunistic than anything. Minato operates the same way with Hiraishin. If somebody has knowledge, then using the technique effectively becomes much more challenging than it would otherwise be with an unprepared opponent.​


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## trance (Jul 21, 2013)

Yagura said:


> seriously?



Hiruzen could fight without his sight via his other senses. Zabuza disregarded sight to attack people. Why can't Minato fight blinded? 



> ...and for the record, Hashirama is an established genjutsu user himself.



Is there a rule that says genjutsu users are completely immune to genjutsu?


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 21, 2013)

In my opinion Minato has a cool coat and a nice haircut

In my opinion Itachi walks like a pimpdaddy (hand hanging off his Akatsuki garms)

In my opinion Minato's eyes are a perfect shade of blue


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## Trojan (Jul 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Nah, take Kabuto for example. He has tons of different people and chakras in him because of DNA modifications, but he still went to a lot of trouble to evade genjutsu. It's not a counter in itself.​[/INDENT]



actually Kabuto did not have any problem with the Genjutsu, other than Izenami. @.@
and he took their blood/DNA, but they were not resources for the chakra! It was by his chakra. 

on the other hand if you remember when Naruto took Kurama's chakra it was placed 
In a separate place


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## Sadgoob (Jul 21, 2013)

IMO Minato would have been cooler an Akatsuki cloak.

He was the original AL


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## Sadgoob (Jul 21, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> actually Kabuto did not have any problem with the Genjutsu



Becuase he closed his eyes. He acknowledged that he _would_ have a problem if he didn't do that.​


TorJaN said:


> and he took their blood/DNA, but they were not resources for the chakra! It was by his chakra.



Remember how Ao commented that Danzō has Shisui's chakra and whatnot? When taking someone DNA, you also take their chakra, because chakra is in part the life energy within cells.​


Trance said:


> Hiruzen could fight without his sight via his other senses.



His nose, specifically. We know skilled ninja can wipe their scents... Orochimaru just didn't care. Besides, Hiruzen really only charged at people to use Shiki Fūjin. His skill went way down.

If he tried to fight someone like Gai, Itachi, etc. in taijutsu with just his nose then he'd get fucked up big time. The Edo Hokage were kicking the piss out of him in taijutsu beforehand, too.​


Trance said:


> Zabuza disregarded sight to attack people.



Similar to Hiruzen, Zabuza isn't fighting in the traditonal sense. He locates blinded people in the mist, then sneaks up on them. He wouldn't be able to close his eyes and then use taijutsu effectively.​


Trance said:


> Is there a rule that says genjutsu users are completely immune to genjutsu?



No, but it makes sense that people with established skill have more knowledge, and with more knowledge, more preparation and understanding in how to handle high level situations.

Jiraiya taught Naruto the very basics, but as Itachi showed against Sauske with genjutsu layering, that basic stuff wouldn't hold up at all against a genjutsu master.​


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Not a problem at all! You're definitely fun to talk with.​
> 
> 
> Alright, so there are a few differences though. First, Kurenai's genjutsu took a lot of time for her, remember? She needed Asuma to cover for her, but the genjutsu _was_ strong enough to capture Kisame. That dude would've been fucked by Asuma.
> ...



*Alright, so apparently there are people who would argue that Kurenai and Hashirama's genjutsu could present a problem for Minato.


And of course Itachi is a superior in that field, overall.That doesn't mean that his finger genjutsu is on another level.It's hype and feats don't support it.

Even Base Naruto was able to resist it to a point, forcing Itachi to up the difficulty.But Base Naruto is very, very low on the genjutsu user scale.

*


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## narutoish (Jul 21, 2013)

Trance said:


> If Madara wanted to beat Hashirama (and that was goal), if we go by your logic, he should've just used genjutsu from the start as you imply Itachi can do against Minato instead of taking control of Kurama and doing it the hard way. *Genjutsu is counted towards a shinobi's skill set*.



There, you answered your own question. It depends on the skill and itachi has shown to be more skilled then Madara as far as genjutsu is concerned.



> And if Kabuto can close his eyes, tell me, what's stopping Minato?



Amertersu to the face 

Seriously kabuto had SM so he could go through the whole fight without opening his eyes, minato can't do that.



Deshi Basara said:


> *1. Naruto's warning only extended to Bee.And that Naruto, in that same fight was forgetting basic shit like Nagato being able to absorb jutsu.So his opinion in that exact fight, means less than zero.
> 
> And if Naruto was so worried about Itachi's eye genjutsu, why did he went to fight him face to face, why not use his giant ass long chakra arms and shit?
> 
> ...



1. Well there is no way to know, we can't tell one way or another if naruto forgot or not.

2. But we don't know if that was because of his speed or not.

B. minato's kunai were in the middle between mhimself and A, so he needed A to charge into them to be able to use FTG. Obito didn't dodge A's punch, there was no speed involved on his part.

3. Well finger genjutsu definitely has more feats then minato's feats of breaking genjutsu no?

4. Sorry I don't get what you are asking.

5. But even then he is mostly stationary, unless is teleporting.

6.  Itachi is smart, he talked naruto into looking at his finger, he can stall for a few seconds to cast a genjutsu.but even if minato decides to fight,  he can only use FTG when itachi moves near a mark or kunai.



TorJaN said:


> you have a problem with that?
> re-watch B Vs Taka or B Vs Itachi, and you shall see how that works.



Yes bee is a jinjuriki and minato is not. It's not the chakra that gets you out its  the beast itself.


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## Kaiser (Jul 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> When really, finger genjutsu is tough to see through because it mimics reality. And once seen through, you need to kai out of it. Moreover, even if it lasted a moment, that's enough time for Itachi to skillfully reposition for Tsukuyomi or whatever.​


A point to remember though. Minato is a sensor. He sensed Obito's chakra(knowing it was the masked guy) without even looking at him(not knowing it's infact Obito). Sensors are capable to notice disorder in their own chakra flow if they are put in a genjutsu. It should be no problem from there to break it with kai release


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## trance (Jul 21, 2013)

@narutoish

Minato will be able to sense Amaterasu and shunshin. Plus, if Hiruzen can rely on his other senses then Minato surely can. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Damn, I'm turning into a Minato supporter. Abort, abort!!! ck


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## Sadgoob (Jul 21, 2013)

Deshi Basara said:


> Alright, so apparently there are people who would argue that Kurenai and Hashirama's genjutsu could present a problem for Minato.



If they landed, then yeah. That'd be problematic, no? Even though Kurenai is a minor character, she is Konoha's most skilled genjutsu user and was probably one of the better illusionists in the world.​


Deshi Basara said:


> That doesn't mean that his finger genjutsu is on another level. It's hype and feats don't support it.



There was never a stated difference between normal dōjutsu genjutsu and non-dōjutsu genjutsu other than it being easier and faster to cast. The strength would thus remain constant.​


Deshi Basara said:


> Even Base Naruto was able to resist it to a point, forcing Itachi to up the difficulty.



Naruto resisted a command, but couldn't overcome the genjutsu. Itachi then attacked his psyche in order to break him down and make him a puppet. That's a very minor resistance.​


Deshi Basara said:


> But Base Naruto is very, very low on the genjutsu user scale.



Not really. He showed that he was skilled enough to keep up with Kakashi earlier, plus he has extremely powerful chakra, so he's in a better position than most to jolt his system with a fluctuation.​


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 21, 2013)

narutoish said:


> There, you answered your own question. It depends on the skill and itachi has shown to be more skilled then Madara as far as genjutsu is concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*0) Minato is a sensor and KB user.Not that he needs to close his eyes, as fast as he is.

1.What else does Ei have against genjutsu?

2.Minato used Hirashin, Obito-Kamui.I don't see the difference especially since both are S/T jutsu.


3.Yes, but getting resisted by Base Naruto to a certain point, doesn't give the finger genjutsu that much hype.


4.I was talking about Naruto and what parts of Itachi's body was he shown focusing on.



5.Minato uses his shunshin a lot more than the likes of Bee.


6.And Minato is not?And fooling Naruto... not exactly sure why that's worth mentioning.

Minato has shunshin as well to close the distance for hirashin.And his shinshin was nothing to sneeze at even before KCM.



*


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## Sadgoob (Jul 21, 2013)

Blake said:


> A point to remember though. Minato is a sensor. He sensed Obito's chakra(knowing it was the masked guy) without even looking at him(not knowing it's infact Obito). Sensors are capable to notice disorder in their own chakra flow if they are put in a genjutsu. It should be no problem from there to break it with kai release



In genjutsu, your senses are being fooled, even that sixth sense. I think this is the case, because we saw C be put in genjutsu and we know Kabuto was a sensor but he closed his eyes anyway.

However, his sensing would definitely come in handy against Amaterasu. The ol' clone feint plus Amaterasu combination is ridiculously broken, but sensing plus Hiraishin definitely counters it.​


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jul 21, 2013)

Kabuto was facing two MS users who are top 10 ninja. Of course he is


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> If they landed, then yeah. That'd be problematic, no? Even though Kurenai is a minor character, she is Konoha's most skilled genjutsu user and was probably one of the better illusionists in the world.​
> 
> 
> There was never a stated difference between normal dōjutsu genjutsu and non-dōjutsu genjutsu other than it being easier and faster to cast. The strength would thus remain constant.​
> ...



*Considering Hasgirama's darkness is completely forgotten and irrelevant, as well as Kurenai as a whole, no i don't really believe that either would really be a threat to Minato, no matter the situation.Most of the part 1 hype got retconned anyway.


Even if the finger genjutsu is on the same level as Itachi's normal sharingan genjutsu, Itachi's base sharingan genjutsu is not on another level either.

Yes, he owned Oro with it, but he had to prevent him from using Kai(and you don't need Oro's genjutsu mastery to break from genjutsu.Remember what Jiraiya said).Absolutely nothing stops Minato the sensor, from instantly escaping via Hirashin.


Naruto didn't have time to fail , Itachi countered him almost immediately.




*


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## Sadgoob (Jul 21, 2013)

Deshi Basara said:


> Considering Hasgirama's darkness is completely forgotten and irrelevant, as well as Kurenai as a whole, no i don't really believe that either would really be a threat to Minato, no matter the situation.



We can agree to disagree then. I feel like you're disregarding an entire ninja specialty though, and Itachi's primary area of expertise.​


Deshi Basara said:


> Yes, he owned Oro with it, but he had to prevent him from using Kai(and you don't need Oro's genjutsu mastery to break from genjutsu.



We don't even know if Orochimaru could break it though. He had to struggle just to get his hands together, so who's to say that Orochimaru wouldn't fall to psychological pressure like Naruto?

Orochimaru definitely has weaker chakra than Naruto, and probably less willpower too. The kai technique was never stated to need skill, but _power_. It revolves around jolting the system with a blast.​


Deshi Basara said:


> Absolutely nothing stops Minato the sensor, from instantly escaping via Hirashin.



His chakra system is being controlled though, so I don't think he can use an S-rank difficulty jutsu. The reason "kai" is used to counter genjutsu is because it's a simple jolt. 

You can't do complicated techniques with an impaired chakra system, which is why you need to break the genjutsu before using techniques. It's part of regaining control of your body, no?​


Deshi Basara said:


> Naruto didn't have time to fail , Itachi countered him almost immediately.



Itachi's shown the propensity to turn up the intensity of his illusions, layer illusions, and to attack from the outside. That further complicated being able to counter his various genjutsu.​


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## Kaiser (Jul 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> In genjutsu, your senses are being fooled, even that sixth sense. I think this is the case, because we saw C be put in genjutsu and we know Kabuto was a sensor but he closed his eyes anyway.
> 
> However, his sensing would definitely come in handy against Amaterasu. The ol' clone feint plus Amaterasu combination is ridiculously broken, but sensing plus Hiraishin definitely counters it.​


I'm refering to Karin here. She is capable to know if one or another person is in a genjutsu or not by checking the chakra flow: react


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## Yagura (Jul 21, 2013)

Trance said:


> Hiruzen could fight without his sight via his other senses. Zabuza disregarded sight to attack people. Why can't Minato fight blinded?



What Hiruzen did could hardly be considered 'fighting'... he was relegated too little more than a punching bag. He was clearly handicapped. All he was able to manage was sniff out and grab the witless Edo Hokages who were already right there, beating on him. 

And regarding Zabuza, fighting without sight is kind of his speciality. It's a required part of his fighting style. The same can't be said of for Minato or Hiruzen.



Trance said:


> Is there a rule that says genjutsu users are completely immune to genjutsu?



No. 


I'm just saying Hashirama has actually demonstrated skill with Genjutsu, unlike Minato. So they're not comparable.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 21, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> We don't even know if Orochimaru could break it though. He had to struggle just to get his hands together, so who's to say that Orochimaru wouldn't fall to psychological pressure like Naruto?
> 
> Orochimaru definitely has weaker chakra than Naruto, and probably less willpower too. The kai technique was never stated to need skill, but _power_. It revolves around jolting the system with a blast.​
> 
> ...



*I doubt Kishi cares about "S rank difficulty".Minato Hirashin-ing out of there is the most likely outcome, especially since he makes it look so easy.



Not really much of a reason to hype Itachi.Neither Oro or Naruto were acting that quickly that Itachi reacting would be so impressive.Put most Kage level ninja in Itachi's place and they should be able to react and counter just fine.



Hahsirama may have actual genjutsu feats, Madara may not be as good at genjutsu as Itachi(he was still hyped by Onoki as quite impressive in the area, when he warned the alliance that Madara will easily make Yamato his bitch, owning Ei etc) but if the strategy you are relying on so much, was that probable, Madara should've gotten the drop on Hashirama , or Izuna on Tobirama at least once.Evidently that is not the case.



*


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## trance (Jul 21, 2013)

Yagura said:


> What Hiruzen did could hardly be considered 'fighting'... he was relegated too little more than a punching bag. He was clearly handicapped. All he was able to manage was sniff out and grab the witless Edo Hokages who were already right there, beating on him.
> 
> And regarding Zabuza, fighting without sight is kind of his speciality. It's actually  a required part of his fighting style. The same can't be said of for Minato or Hiruzen.



All I'm saying is we can't rule it out. Minato's a clever and quick witted thinker and if he has knowledge beforehand, he probably can find a way to avoid or nullify the genjutsu.



> No.
> 
> 
> I'm just saying Hashirama has actually demonstrated skill with Genjutsu, unlike Minato. So they're not comparable.



You don't have to know genjutsu to know how to counter it.


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## narutoish (Jul 22, 2013)

Trance said:


> @narutoish
> 
> Minato will be able to sense Amaterasu and shunshin. Plus, if Hiruzen can rely on his other senses then Minato surely can.



relying on his senses and fighting a battle with eyes closed is a totally different thing, and unless minato shows such a feat he can't do it.



Deshi Basara said:


> *0) Minato is a sensor and KB user.Not that he needs to close his eyes, as fast as he is.*


*

i am not buying that he can fight with his eyes closed, but it wasn't you who said it.




			1.What else does Ei have against genjutsu?

2.Minato used Hirashin, Obito-Kamui.I don't see the difference especially since both are S/T jutsu.


3.Yes, but getting resisted by Base Naruto to a certain point, doesn't give the finger genjutsu that much hype.


4.I was talking about Naruto and what parts of Itachi's body was he shown focusing on.



5.Minato uses his shunshin a lot more than the likes of Bee.


6.And Minato is not?And fooling Naruto... not exactly sure why that's worth mentioning.

Minato has shunshin as well to close the distance for hirashin.And his shinshin was nothing to sneeze at even before KCM.
		
Click to expand...

*
1. i  believe there was something about his nervous system that gave him immunity to genjutsu.

2. that's the problem, A called minato the fastest because of FTG, which is technically not speed, the same way kamui is not. Without FTG minato wouldn't be faster then A.

3. Naruto, after spending 3 yrs with jiraya learning about genjutsu failed to break itachi's genjutsu and needed the help of sakura and chiyo (both of them had excellent chakra control), so if it takes 3 people to break one of his genjutsu's, i think that gives him some hype and feat.

4. i read that fight again, and after kakashi says not to look into itachi's eyes, they only show his body (meaning that naruto wasn't looking into the eyes but the body).

5. yeah but the panels show that itachi can cast the genjutsu in only a moment, even if he is engaged in CQC with an expert. but minato won't go CQC as fast as bee does, he will try to asses the situation and maybe spread the kunais and wait for itachi to make a move.

6. I know its not hard, but you have to keep in mind that while naruto was told to specifically watch out for genjutsu, itachi still caught him two times during their meetings. its not so much about tricking naruto, its about casting a genjutsu when the other guy is specifically watching out for it.


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## trance (Jul 22, 2013)

*@narutoish*

Fair enough but let's refrain from this debate till we get more feats from Minato. He's most likely going to get some reasonable feats here soon because as it is, the overall debate can go on forever (even though the current general concensus is Minato > Itachi).

Itachi is done with his feats. Now we just wait for Minato.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 22, 2013)

narutoish said:


> relying on his senses and fighting a battle with eyes closed is a totally different thing, and unless minato shows such a feat he can't do it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*0)Wait, wait, wait......  Minato needs feats to show that he can let his KB handle shit while he keeps track of his opponent by sensing him?

But even if we exclude KB, Minato doesn't have some complicated style of fighting that absolutely requires eye sight.Flash in + kunai slahs/flash in + rasengan.It's completely within his capabilities to do it with his eyes closed.


1.I feel that Kishi would've emphasized more on it if that was the reason for Ei not being caught in genjutsu any earlier.And why would Kishi need that huge distraction to nullify that sort of advantage?


2.Ei never mentioned Hirashin in his admission of inferiority.I feel that he thought of Minato as his superior in that field overall, otherwise he would've included Obito as well.

3.Did you just say that those 3 years were mostly spent on genjutsu countering?I think trying to teach him to control the Kyuubi transformations took most of Jiraiya's time.There was also Odama Rasengan, his taijutsu and KB skill (as mentioned by Kakashi and Jiraiya)


And Itachi flat out said that "Naruto is still weak", but still had to interrupt him before Naruto had his chance to break out.

4.Actually there were a few close ups on Itachi's head, especially the last time Alive Itachi and Naruto met.

5.Naruto didn't have knowledge and was caught off guard by Itachi being able to cast genjutsu through finger and crows.And Naruto failing for it =/=Minato failing for it


And finally, this is why Minato losing to finger + some other attack combo of Itachi sounds implausible to me:








Absolutely nothing stops Minato the sensor, from instantly escaping via Hirashin.



Hashirama may have actual genjutsu feats, Madara may not be as good at genjutsu as Itachi(he was still hyped by Onoki as quite impressive in the area, when he warned the alliance that Madara will easily make Yamato his bitch, owning Ei etc) but if the strategy you are relying on so much, was that probable, Madara should've gotten the drop on Hashirama , or Izuna on Tobirama at least once.Evidently that is not the case.


Click to expand...







*


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## Yagura (Jul 22, 2013)

Trance said:


> Minato's a clever and quick witted thinker and if he has knowledge beforehand, he probably can find a way to avoid or nullify the genjutsu.



Yeah, and so is Hiruzen... and with Hashirama being his sensei, that probably wasn't his first time seeing that particular genjutsu either... yet he did nothing to counter it.


But we're getting off-topic. 



Trance said:


> You don't have to know genjutsu to know how to counter it.



...and yet Minato hasn't shown either of those things. 



> Fair enough but let's refrain from this debate till we get more feats from Minato. He's most likely going to get some reasonable feats here soon because as it is, the overall debate can go on forever (even though the current general concensus is Minato > Itachi).



Let's hope a proper Genjutsu defense will be among his new feats. 


...and that he doesn't have any negative showings, either.


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## trance (Jul 22, 2013)

Yagura said:


> Yeah, and so is Hiruzen.
> 
> And with Hashirama being his sensei, that probably wasn't his first time seeing that particular genjutsu either.... yet he did nothing to counter it.
> 
> ...



Don't worry. Kishi's probably gonna put Minato at Hashirama's level...maybe higher depending  on how he handles Juubito. .


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## Yagura (Jul 22, 2013)

Trance said:


> Don't worry. Kishi's probably gonna put Minato at Hashirama's level...maybe higher depending  on how he handles Juubito. .



Oh, only Hashirama's level? Kishi might want to find someone who hasn't already admitted inferiority to Itachi.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 22, 2013)

Yagura said:


> Yeah, and so is Hiruzen... and with Hashirama being his sensei, that probably wasn't his first time seeing that particular genjutsu either... yet he did nothing to counter it.
> 
> 
> But we're getting off-topic.
> ...



*Why does Minato need to show  genjutsu feats, but Itachi doesn't need to show catching someone as fast as Minato in a genjutsu?


Especially when Minato's inferior Ei, had to be completely distracted to be caught in one.

 Further more, Minato is a sensor and can tell if he's in a genjutsu or not:

Here


and escape immediately with Hirashin.*


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## Yagura (Jul 22, 2013)

> Why does Minato need to show genjutsu feats, but Itachi doesn't need to show catching someone as fast as Minato in a genjutsu?



Because 'speed' is not a real counter to genjutsu. Minato doesn't have Guy's training in avoiding eye contact during combat, nor is eye contact even Itachi's only way of casting genjutsu.



> Further more, Minato is a sensor and can tell if he's in a genjutsu or not:



You assume all sensors have the same abilities. 



> and escape immediately with Hirashin.



Many genjutsu prohibit you from controlling your actions in reality. And this is assuming the you even realize you're caught in one to begin with.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 22, 2013)

Yagura said:


> Because 'speed' is not a real counter to genjutsu.



*I love how you completely ignored my example with Ei.

How exactly is speed not a proper counter?Please explain how Itachi will instantly realize that Minato has made eye contact and cast the genjutsu before Minato has moved away?You realize we are talking about Minato, right?




			Minato doesn't have Guy's training in avoiding eye contact during combat, nor is eye contact even Itachi's only way of casting genjutsu.
		
Click to expand...



Gai specializes in taijutsu, that's why he needs that training.Minato's fighting style is simple = wrap in + rasengan/kunai slash.There is no need for eye contact at all.


Not to mention how you conveniently forgot that Minato can make Bunshins as well.





			You assume all sensors have the same abilities.
		
Click to expand...


Sensing that someone is trying to mess with your own chakra requires a different ability now?




			Many genjutsu prohibit you from controlling your actions in reality. And this is assuming the you even realize you're caught in one to begin with.
		
Click to expand...


Itachi had to stop Oro in the real world from breaking from his genjutsu.

And once more:





Absolutely nothing stops Minato the sensor, from instantly escaping via Hirashin.



Hashirama may have actual genjutsu feats, Madara may not be as good at genjutsu as Itachi(he was still hyped by Onoki as quite impressive in the area, when he warned the alliance that Madara will easily make Yamato his bitch, owning Ei etc) but if the strategy you are relying on so much, was that probable, Madara should've gotten the drop on Hashirama , or Izuna on Tobirama at least once.Evidently that is not the case.

Click to expand...

*


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2013)

Yagura said:


> Because 'speed' is not a real counter to genjutsu. Minato doesn't have Guy's training in avoiding eye contact during combat, nor is eye contact even Itachi's only way of casting genjutsu.


Yes speed is a real counter. That's why Madara had to hold A down mitigating his speed before he could cast Genjutsu on him. For more details see the spoiler tag:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Actually the issue is not reaction speed when it comes to difficult to land Sharingan Genjutsu on high speed opponents. It's not like A is reacting every-time that an Uchiha goes to use Genjutsu and avoiding eye contact, how could he be when there are no visible warning signs to the utilization of Sharingan Genjutsu & he does not have some advanced insight ability like chakra sensing, Sharingan, Byakugan, etc...

Instead the problem is movement speed. For an Uchiha to cast a Sharingan Genjutsu they have to first make eye contact and than actually cast the Genjutsu. So an Uchiha has to have time to process that eye contact has been made and than more time to cast the illusion, which happens quickly and is why most levels of speed aren't a problem, but we're not talking about most levels of speed we're talking about the absolute best of the best. Another problem is that the casting of Genjutsu can be interrupted by caster being attacked.

So the problem is that when going up against a top speedster it's hard to make eye contact at all since they will be moving at such a speed where they are darting in and out of an Uchiha's field of vision. Than if eye contact is made they are probably going to move out of the position where eye is successful or launch an attack before an Uchiha gets a chance to execute the Genjutsu, both of which would also prevent the Genjutsu from being cast. 

That's why Madara held Raikage down thus stopping his movement before casting his illusion, if it was about simply reacting Raikage could have still closed his eyes thus avoiding the illusion, but again it's about movement speed not reaction speed.

In Minato's case he is even more difficult to land an illusion on than Raikage because he can move about faster than Raikage with FTG. Additionally now that he has KCM even his base speed and shunshin should logically excel Raikage's considering that the KCM power up improved Naruto's speed to be beyond Raikage's and Base Minato is faster than Base Naruto by a mile. So Minato & even more so KCM Minato would insanely difficult to land an illusion on. 




And besides speed Minato has other counters as well. 

1. Summons to act as his partners and break him out
2. Internal Kyuubi Chakra to break him out
3. FTG to teleport outside the Genjutsu Users Range
4. KB 


1-3 work for everything with the possible exception of Tsukuyomi. Though there is still some question in my mind of 2 & 3 working in the case of Tsukuyomi. KB works int he case of all Genjutsu as another avoidence mechanism beyond speed. 

So Minato has already shown several counters to Genjutsu already and there's even several things that point towards Minato having some sensor related skills that haven't been cleared up yet by the author. I don't see what else someone can expect in terms of Genjutsu counters, unless you just want him to display outright immunity, which is ridiculous if it is the case.


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## narutoish (Jul 22, 2013)

Deshi Basara said:


> *0)Wait, wait, wait......  Minato needs feats to show that he can let his KB handle shit while he keeps track of his opponent by sensing him?*


*

Minato needs to show feats of fighting with his eyes closed, relying only on his senses. Kabuto only did it because he was a sage, and just being a sensor doesn't mean you can fight with your eyes closed.




			But even if we exclude KB, Minato doesn't have some complicated style of fighting that absolutely requires eye sight.Flash in + kunai slahs/flash in + rasengan.It's completely within his capabilities to do it with his eyes closed.
		
Click to expand...


How will he know where itachi is, or what he is doing? You can't expect me to believe that he will sit with his eyes closed, hoping itachi will stumble on one of his kunais and then teleport to him and use rasengans.



			1.I feel that Kishi would've emphasized more on it if that was the reason for Ei not being caught in genjutsu any earlier.And why would Kishi need that huge distraction to nullify that sort of advantage?


2.Ei never mentioned Hirashin in his admission of inferiority.I feel that he thought of Minato as his superior in that field overall, otherwise he would've included Obito as well.

3.Did you just say that those 3 years were mostly spent on genjutsu countering?I think trying to teach him to control the Kyuubi transformations took most of Jiraiya's time.There was also Odama Rasengan, his taijutsu and KB skill (as mentioned by Kakashi and Jiraiya)


And Itachi flat out said that "Naruto is still weak", but still had to interrupt him before Naruto had his chance to break out.

4.Actually there were a few close ups on Itachi's head, especially the last time Alive Itachi and Naruto met.

5.Naruto didn't have knowledge and was caught off guard by Itachi being able to cast genjutsu through finger and crows.And Naruto failing for it =/=Minato failing for it


And finally, this is why Minato losing to finger + some other attack combo of Itachi sounds implausible to me:
		
Click to expand...

*
1. Well C did say it was because of his nervous system and not the speed, may be Madara's genjutsu was stronger then sasuke's.

2. I thought it was made clear that minato with FTG barely dodged A, if he could do that with base speed he would've done that, and all of minato's hype regarding his speed includes FTG. As for obito, he teleported to another dimension, and besides A didn't even know what Justus it was so that could be a reason.

3. Well  genjutsu training was at least a big part of the training, and on minato's case itachi won't sit and comment a out his ability to break a genjutsu, he will go for the kill.

4. But definitely none in their first fight in part 2 ( after Kakashi told them not to look)

5. No knowledge means he is definitely fallinf for it, with general knowledge, he might avoid eye genjutsu but not the other ones.

I don't believe minato will know he is in a genjutsu unless itachi wants him to know, and once in a genjutsu, you have to break out of it to use any other Justus.




Turrin said:


> Yes speed is a real counter. That's why Madara had to hold A down mitigating his speed before he could cast Genjutsu on him. For more details see the spoiler tag:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



But darting in and out and constantly moving is not minato's style, he spreads his kunais and only moves for the one hit kill. A and minato's fighting styles are different and A moves more then minato. 


> And besides speed Minato has other counters as well.
> 
> 1. Summons to act as his partners and break him out
> 2. Internal Kyuubi Chakra to break him out
> ...



1. Assuming he knows he will be falling victim to a genjutsu, otherwise why would he summon.

2. Kyuubi chakra never broke anyone out, the beast does it itself not the chakra.

3. Once within the genjutsu, you have to break it to use Justus like FTG, the chakra flow is disturbed by a genjutsu remember.

4. Same as 3. Also itachi is better in the KB game then minato, if minato makes a KB itachi can see it, but if itachi makes one, it would be too fast for minato to see.


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2013)

narutoish said:


> But darting in and out and constantly moving is not minato's style, he spreads his kunais and only moves for the one hit kill. A and minato's fighting styles are different and A moves more then minato.




That would depend on who he's fighting. Because Ei's so quick, and so reflexive in his armor, Minato needed to wait until Ei actually attacked in order to counterstrike. What good would darting around do against the Raikage? When Minato actually moved in for a strike, Ei would've been able to react and probably counterattack Minato himself.

Obviously, the only way to even fight Obito is to wait until he solidifies....which is "the last second." Moving from Kunai to Kunai does no good if Minato's attacks will just pass through Tobi.

Minato's been said to destroy divisions in the blink of an eye. He possess the necessary reflexes to rapidly attack between different Kunai, so why question it? There's no point in waiting for Itachi to charge in and die, that's not how he fights. Even if Minato were to have no knowledge, he would realize Itachi isn't that type of fighter rather quickly.


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## narutoish (Jul 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> That would depend on who he's fighting. Because Ei's so quick, and so reflexive in his armor, Minato needed to wait until Ei actually attacked in order to counterstrike. What good would darting around do against the Raikage? When Minato actually moved in for a strike, Ei would've been able to react and probably counterattack Minato himself.
> 
> Obviously, the only way to even fight Obito is to wait until he solidifies....which is "the last second." Moving from Kunai to Kunai does no good if Minato's attacks will just pass through Tobi.
> 
> Minato's been said to destroy divisions in the blink of an eye. He possess the necessary reflexes to rapidly attack between different Kunai, so why question it? There's no point in waiting for Itachi to charge in and die, that's not how he fights. Even if Minato were to have no knowledge, he would realize Itachi isn't that type of fighter rather quickly.



Well he definitely wouldn't be moving in without his kunais already in place, against those divisions that he destroyed, his kunais were already placed all he had to do was teleport and kill.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 22, 2013)

narutoish said:


> Minato needs to show feats of fighting with his eyes closed, relying only on his senses. Kabuto only did it because he was a sage, and just being a sensor doesn't mean you can fight with your eyes closed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*As i said to the other guy, Minato has a simple style of fighting which he can execute with his eyes closed.

Um, by sensing him?Just like he sensed exactly where that fodder in the gaiden was?


1.C made no mention of Ei countering genjutsu.He was impressed that all of Taka (he specifically mentioned multiple people) were keeping with Ei's speed.But then went on to say that Ei has increased his reactions and they won't be able to keep up for much longer.

2.That had to do with reaction speed, which is not the same as Minato not being as fast as Ei on foot.Besides, he got caught off guard, next time he Hirashin'd casually.

Ei didn't need to know what jutsu it was, he saw Obito teleport in and away from the Kage summit.

3.For the last time, Minato ain't falling for shit that will leave him wide open for attack, just because Base Naruto did.Kishi doesn't write this way:

"Absolutely nothing stops Minato the sensor, from instantly escaping via Hirashin.

Hashirama may have actual genjutsu feats, Madara may not be as good at genjutsu as Itachi(he was still hyped by Onoki as quite impressive in the area, when he warned the alliance that Madara will easily make Yamato his bitch, owning Ei etc) but if the strategy you are relying on so much, was that probable, Madara should've gotten the drop on Hashirama , or Izuna on Tobirama at least once.Evidently that is not the case."




4.It's not up to Itachi to allow (or not) Minato to figure out that he's in  a genjutsu:


react




			Once within the genjutsu, you have to break it to use Justus like FTG, the chakra flow is disturbed by a genjutsu remember.
		
Click to expand...



I would like proof of that.Itachi had no problem executing tsukuyomi on Sasuke(and Tsukuyomi is not some simple and easy genjutsu) when he was caught in Sage Kabuto's illusion, which is most likely more powerful than most of Itachi's genjutsu with the exception of Tsukuyomi. 





			4. Same as 3. Also itachi is better in the KB game then minato, if minato makes a KB itachi can see it, but if itachi makes one, it would be too fast for minato to see.
		
Click to expand...


Um, Minato reacted to Ei (the second time casually) and is his admitted superior.Ei is also someone who the sharingan has trouble keeping track of, so i don't see Itachi's bunshins presenting a problem.
*


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2013)

narutoish said:


> Well he definitely wouldn't be moving in without his kunais already in place, against those divisions that he destroyed, his kunais were already placed all he had to do was teleport and kill.




He can spread them immediately to gain the same advantage.


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## Jak N Blak (Jul 22, 2013)

Why are you guys indulging in such fuckery?

We were already having 10 page plus Minato vs Itachi debates before he got KCM. Like what the honest fuck.

Stop feeding into these Itachi fans reality. All arguing back with them is doing is reinforcing the stupid idea in their mind that they actually have a genuine argument. I mean shit, if people were debating with me for 10 pages...I'd truly believe I have an argument too!


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## Baroxio (Jul 22, 2013)

So? We were having 10 page plus debates between the two since before Itachi got his Nagato and Kabuto feats as well. This is a heated topic between the two fan-and-author favorites.

Deal with it.


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## BrokenBonds (Jul 22, 2013)

This thread gives me a headache. Clash of the fanboys.


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2013)

narutoish said:


> But darting in and out and constantly moving is not minato's style, he spreads his kunais and only moves for the one hit kill. A and minato's fighting styles are different and A moves more then minato.


I don't know where you got this impression. Let's break down Minato's fights.

Minato vs Obito

First move is a full speed lunge attack [1]. Tobi phases through it and gets him with his chains, to which Minato responds by FTG teleporting away [2]. Than Minato top speed lunges at him again throwing a FTG Kunai ahead of him and wielding Rasengan [3]. Tobi phases through the Kunai and Minato FTG Bam flashes him from behind [4]. Tobi gets up and Minato instantly bamflashes him again [5]. 

Here Minato is seen moving at high speed around the battlefield whether it be with top speed lunges or FTG. 

Minato vs A & B:

Minato throws out his Kunai, Raikage, Evades, and goes to blitz Minato [1]. Minato evades by FTG teleporting away [2]. Than Minato quickly FTG teleports again attacking Raikage from behind [3]. Killer B intercepts Minato's attack and Minato goes to walk away. Raikage tries to blitz Minato again & Minato FTG teleports to attack B from behind [4].

Again we see Minato moving at high speed around the battlefield using FTG primarily this time.

Minato in the War:

Minato arrives on the battlefield using high speed Shunshin and the first thing he does is Teleport in with FTG [1]. His next move is to teleport the Hokage and himself with FTG for the barrier [2]. After that he of course stand still for a bit, but that is to maintain the barrier. When uses his clone the clone instantly goes for the FTG teleport [3]. Than when he starts fighting Juubiobito again his first move is to FTG teleport to his clone [4]. Than him and his clone charge Juubiobito at high speed and pull out 3 FTG kunai each, which seems to suggest they will be performing a combo attack which requires them to teleport between many different Kunai [5].

Yet Again we see Minato moving at high speed around the battlefield using FTG, Shunshin, and high-speed KCM charges. 

So think about it if Minato runs around the battlefield FTG teleporting all the time, using Shunshin, and using high speed charging attacks, Itachi is going to have one hell of a hard time making eye contact with him long enough to cast Genjutsu. 



> Assuming he knows he will be falling victim to a genjutsu, otherwise why would he summon.


I'm pretty sure Minato knows Itachi is an Uchiha since Itachi was born before Minato died and Kushina was even friends with Mikoto Uchiha (Itachi's mother). I'm also assuming if someone like Chiyo knew that it was good to have a partner when going up against Genjutsu that Minato who was the Hokage of the hometown of the Uchiha also knows this general rule.

However there are also other reasons to call out a summon than just Genjutsu defense.



> Kyuubi chakra never broke anyone out, the beast does it itself not the chakra.


No it's the chakra itself that does it. As Jiraiya states flowing someone else's chakra into your own disrupts the flow of your chakra breaking your free:
[5]

So Minato can break himself out by flowing the Kyuubi's chakra into his own thus disrupting the flow of his chakra. 



> Once within the genjutsu, you have to break it to use Justus like FTG, the chakra flow is disturbed by a genjutsu remember.


You can use techniques while in a Genjutsu. Here we see Naruto using Genjutsu Kai, which is a Ninjutsu while in Itachi's Genjutsu:
[5]

We've also seen both Itachi and Sasuke cast Sharingan Genjutsu while already in a Genjutsu creating the layered effect where they are dueling each other with Genjutsu:
[5]

We also saw tons of people use Jutsu while within Mizukage's Genjutsu. Naruto used Jutsu while being inside the Oboro brothers Genjutsu. Itachi was technically inside Koto, but continued to use Jutsu. Danzo was able to use Jutsu while inside of Sasuke's Genjutsu to make him believe his last eye was close. We saw Itachi cast Dojutsu technique while caught in Kurunai's Genjutsu. We saw Shikkamaru uses his Kagemane no Jutsu within Tayuya's Genjutsu & for that matter we saw Itachi & Sasuke use their Dojutsu techs within Kabuto's version of Tayuya's Genjutsu.

The only reason why you wouldn't be able to use Ninjutsu inside a Genjutsu technique is if some aspect of the Genjutsu is preventing you from doing so. For example Orochimaru struggled to use Genjutsu Kai when he was caught in Itachi's Shackling Stake Illusion, because the illusion was slowing his movements making it take longer for him to create the necessary hand-seal. However in Minato's case he can use FTG w/o hand-seals so that's not an issue for him.

Now there are Genjutsu like Frog Song which seals the targets mind and body, which due to the sealing of the mind aspect may prevent a person from using techniques whatsoever even ones that don't require motion like FTG to use, but none of Itachi's Genjutsu have been shown to do that except Izanami, which won't work on Minato due to him not having an issue with accepting his fate.

Though perhaps it can be debated whether or not Tsukuyomi has this effect or not, which is why I said in my original post the FTG teleport out of Itachi's range might not work against Tsukuyomi, but will for all of Itachi's other Genjutsu.



> Same as 3.


I'm talking about Minato already having a KB out on the field, not attempting to cast KB after being caught in Itachi's illusion. 



> Also itachi is better in the KB game then minato,


This is a totally baseless assertion. Minato used his KB to great effect in 637 to cut down Obito, while allowing his real body to still maintain the barrier. He also used his KB to good effect in ch 639 to teleport his real body to the location of his KB. Also it was implied in 639 he was about to use his KB to pull of some new Jutsu, implying he has actual combos with his KB. So he seems to use Clones very efficiently to me.

On top of that he can create more clones than Itachi due to having more chakra and his clones in KCM are apparently more durable than your average clone as Minato's clone did not disperse after Obito hit it:
[5]

In terms of KB creation speed, I very much doubt that Minato falls that far behind Itachi considering he was shown to be very fast with his hand-seals in base:
[5]

And now has his speed further enhanced by KCM.



> but if itachi makes one, it would be too fast for minato to see.


This is totally baseless. Minato was able to see and react to Raikage's top speed and that was before he had his abilities further augmented by KCM. So in-order for someone to believe Itachi can make a clone faster than Minato can see it you'd have to believe Itachi can create a clone much faster than Raikage's top speed, which Itachi has no feats to even come close to suggesting this is the case. 

Not to mention this doesn't really have anything to do with the effectiveness of KB as a counter measure to Genjutsu. Unless your trying to say Itachi would match Minato clone for clone, in-which case that is literally physically impossible for Itachi as Minato has more stamina than him by huge margin now that he has KCM and he can therefore create far more clones than Itachi can.


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## blk (Jul 22, 2013)

How can Minato avoid genjutsu with anything less than full-knowledge? Against Obito, he stare his eyes without even thinking twice about it; a similar behavior against Itachi means to lose from the start of the fight (assuming that the initial distance between them is not too big).


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2013)

blk said:


> How can Minato avoid genjutsu with anything less than full-knowledge? Against Obito, he stare his eyes without even thinking twice about it; a similar behavior against Itachi means to lose from the start of the fight (assuming that the initial distance between them is not too big).


I assume your referring to this moment as the time when Minato was making eye contact with Obito:
incapacitation

You do realize that Minato was goading Obito into using an attack so Obito would become tangible and he could hit him. For instance if Obito went to use Genjutsu at the start of that charge he'd have become tangible and been killed by the FTG Kunai. If he went to use Genjutsu after phasing through the Kuni, Minato inches away from him with a Rasengan attack, so he'd be hit by the Rasengan long before he could complete the casting of the Genjutsu, hence Obito having to use his fatest attack in that instance which was not Genjutsu, but rather Kamui Warp.

Beyond that analysis common sense tells us that if Obito could have Genjutsu'd Minato, so easily he would have done so and defeated Minato that way.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 22, 2013)

More Itachi wank........

Guys would you approve if I make an 10 Itachis vs Juubito? Just to see if the wankers shut the fuck up by seeing Itachi ravished.


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## Kai (Jul 22, 2013)

Tobi has an even greater chance at defeating Minato than Itachi does; Why is he even being used as an alibi for Itachi's case?


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Jul 22, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> So? We were having 10 page plus debates between the two since before Itachi got his Nagato and Kabuto feats as well. This is a heated topic between the two fan-and-author favorites.
> 
> Deal with it.


Itachi getting a few more feats is not the equivalent of a KCM-level powerup.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 22, 2013)

Orochibuto said:


> More Itachi wank........
> 
> Guys would you approve if I make an 10 Itachis vs Juubito? Just to see if the wankers shut the fuck up by seeing Itachi ravished.



Like most arguments against Itachi, the reliance is on portrayal, which is such a holistically subjective viewpoint that it makes debating points pointless. Factually, Juubito seems pretty mindless, so a sneaky illusion and the Totsuka could definitely work. 

Similarly, as many people have stated, KCM Minato hasn't actually _done_ anything to make him impossible for Itachi to defeat. The reliance is solely on portrayal, and with the prerequisite argument of how people considered Minato vs Itachi a match before KCM.

But Minato vs Itachi was only considered a match because of portrayal immunizing Minato to Itachi's specialty and basically all of his tricks and techniques. So the argument is somewhat circular, not hypocritical, because Minato's portrayal didn't change.

A counterargument for portrayal would be people thinking the author would have someone slaughter Itachi. Even _Juubito_ wouldn't get away with that shit. Itachi is in the author's hearts, and his abilities can realistically trounce anybody if circumstances are on his side.​


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 22, 2013)

Nah i do not see itachi beating minato now or back then for that matter. Once the kunai are spread it is pretty much game over. Clones using FTG to force itachi to waste more stamina quicker with attacks, the huge boost in speed means itachi will never be able to lay eyes on minato. Not to mention minato warping away susanoo from behind giving him a huge opening(combined with a KB for maximum effect). I just do not see itachi beating minato with his low stamina(plus having to rapidly use it) and minato being a near untouchable target meaning a slim chance of one shots(totsuka, amaterasu, tsukyomi).

If minato was orochimaru or deidara then the whole instant genjutsu at the start stuff might work but minato is a different better ninja and always cautious. The fact he did not suffer genjutsu being used against him when fighting obito says something. Raikage has shown on different occasions that speed is a great counter for genjutsu and minato happens to be the best when it comes to all things speed related things.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 22, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> Itachi getting a few more feats is not the equivalent of a KCM-level powerup.



Don't underestimate Kishi's wank


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> [INDENT Even _Juubito_ wouldn't get away with that shit. Itachi is in the author's hearts, and his abilities can realistically trounce anybody if circumstances are on his side.[/INDENT]




I disagree. The thing is tearing the Hokage apart, any they're at the peak of their hype right now.

Juubito would slaughter Itachi, just as he is slaughtering Shinobi Kishi portrays stronger than Itachi, like Naruto & Sasuke. Kishimoto favoring Itachi a bit more isn't going to change that. It would tear through Itachi's defenses easily.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 22, 2013)

The only people Juubito slaughtered was Edo Tobirama and Edo Hiruzen, and as Edo Tensei stated to be using immortality to their advantage, that's negligible. Plus Tobirama did something badass.

Neither of them are anywhere near Itachi's suu-level though. Only Minato can compete with Itachi in that area.​


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The only person Juubito slaughtered was Edo Tobirama and Edo Hiruzen, and as an Edo Tensei, that's fairly negligible, plus Tobirama also came out of it looking badass.​




Hiruzen got murked. The advantage they gain from Edo Tensei only allows them to fight safely. It doesn't make them weaker.

Juubito also ran down Naruto & Sasuke, plowing through the latter's Susano'o with his bare hands. Since they require saving, I consider that as Obito beating them.


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> The only people Juubito slaughtered was Edo Tobirama and Edo Hiruzen, and as Edo Tensei stated to be using immortality to their advantage, that's negligible. Plus Tobirama did something badass.
> 
> Neither of them are anywhere near Itachi's suu-level though. Only Minato can compete with Itachi in that area.​


Strategoob Juubiobito is the strongest form of the Juubi we've seen yet. We've seen previous weaker forms of the Juubi have the entire alliance defeated at certain points in this battle. Yet you don't think Kishi would have Juubiobito beat down Itachi. 

This is almost on the level of Itachi can solo Galacticus Fanboy-BS 

Edit: Kishi had SM Kabuto beat down Itachi and were questioning whether he'd have Juubiobito do it LOL.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 22, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Strategoob Juubiobito is the strongest form of the Juubi we've seen yet. We've seen previous weaker forms of the Juubi have the entire alliance defeated at certain points in this battle. Yet you don't think Kishi would have Juubiobito beat down Itachi.



Kishimoto would not have Itachi be fodder to anybody. Not Juubito. Not Galactus. Not a fusion of the two. Juubitolactus could dominate him, but Itachi would be impressive regardless.​


Turrin said:


> This is almost on the level of Itachi can solo Galacticus Fanboy-BS



The weakness to Galactus' technique is... Itachi.​


Turrin said:


> Edit: Kishi had SM Kabuto beat down Itachi and were questioning whether he'd have Juubiobito do it LOL.



Kishimoto had Itachi intentionally hold back against Kabuto in order to defeat Edo Tensei, and then finish him even when Kabuto had knowledge and abilities to prevent Itachi's specialty.​


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Let me reiterate: Kishimoto would not have Itachi be fodder to anybody. Not Juubito. Not Galactus.​




He's a professional. Favoritism has it's limits.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He's a professional. Favoritism has it's limits.



Professionals don't fodderize their most developed characters.​


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Professionals don't fodderize their most developed characters.​




As long as there is someone there to save them, I don't see a problem. The main characters being too weak to accomplish anything against the final villain is a common occurrence.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> As long as there is someone there to save them, I don't see a problem. The main characters being too weak to accomplish anything against the final villain is a common occurrence.



I wouldn't call that being fodderized then. For example, Sasuke and Naruto are going to be saved, but I imagine they're going to be doing the heavy lifting later on in battle.

Naruto will have 100% Kurama, possibly surpassing Hashirama, and Sasuke will probably have giant Susano'o with a giant Amaterasu sword or something, which would combo with Kirin and Kagustuchi.

But yeah. So in this imaginary scenario, Itachi could be saved or regenerate if he's an Edo, but he's still going to be impressive. He's a lot more important than Tobirama, who was impressive, anyway.​


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2013)

Itachi wouldn't be in the same situation as Tobirama (who accomplished nothing, by the way).

He'd probably stay away, or use a clone. I don't know, but someway, he'd being a focal point in gathering intelligence on the beast, through careful observation. Itachi would pick up on something the other's missed, and contribute in that way. 

He's obviously not strong enough to be relevant in a fight, so he wouldn't engage. Plain and simple. He would play the brains, while the heavy hitters (100% Naruto, Super Susano'o Sasuke, and possibly Madara or Hashirama) did the fighting. If he was an Edo, he'd act in the same way Hiruzen did, but actually figure something important out.

Itachi would not be a _useless_ asset in the overall battle against Juubito, but if and when it engaged him, Itachi would be beaten swiftly just as his brother was. Or Naruto. Or the Hokage, or any other powerful Shinobi that follow them.


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## Sans (Jul 22, 2013)

Sasuke also questioned Itachi after the battle, because Izanami is a terrible technique for actual fighting. Itachi didn't deny this assertion, merely stated that he used it out of empathy for Kabuto.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Itachi wouldn't be in the same situation as Tobirama (who accomplished nothing, by the way).



He accomplished being badass. 



Rocky said:


> He'd probably stay away, or use a clone. I don't know, but someway, he'd being a focal point in gathering intelligence on the beast, through careful observation. Itachi would pick up on something the other's missed, and contribute in that way.



I agree.



Rocky said:


> He's obviously not strong enough to be relevant in a fight, so he wouldn't engage. Plain and simple.



I disagree. There would be no better time to test the limits of his items.


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> He accomplished being badass.




Itachi has no problems in this field. 




> I disagree. There would be no better time to test the limits of his items.




The King of Retconns is writing this shit, let's not forget.  

They would get retconned. Obito would eventually break through the Mirror, and overcome the sealing Jutsu of the sword, just like he's overcoming everything else he faces.


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## Orochibuto (Jul 22, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Like most arguments against Itachi, the reliance is on portrayal, which is such a holistically subjective viewpoint that it makes debating points pointless. Factually, Juubito seems pretty mindless, so a sneaky illusion and the Totsuka could definitely work.
> 
> Similarly, as many people have stated, KCM Minato hasn't actually _done_ anything to make him impossible for Itachi to defeat. The reliance is solely on portrayal, and with the prerequisite argument of how people considered Minato vs Itachi a match before KCM.
> 
> ...



Based on that logic, then according to you Itachi could defeat Rikudou Sennin.


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## Ennoia (Jul 22, 2013)

Itachi clone feints and throws kunai at all of Minato's kunai to take him out when he uses FTG, Minato's hatred isnt strong enough to take this


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## Sadgoob (Jul 22, 2013)

Deshi Basara said:


> Further more, Minato is a sensor and can tell if he's in a genjutsu or not.



You underestimate the GLORIOUS skill of Itachi.



Ao's basically saying a platoon of sensors wouldn't detect the manipulation.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 22, 2013)

Eh? I am pretty darn sure he was referring to Itachi's ability to maintain the genjutsu manipulation from outside their range. I don't think for a second that the sensing team could possibly detect genjutsu, or anything that subtle, from where they were. So far as I can tell, their sensing orb was limited to sensing presences. And not jutsu or truth telling or anything else sensors have been known to do.


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## Ennoia (Jul 22, 2013)

I would agree thats the way I interpreted it as well.


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Kishimoto would not have Itachi be fodder to anybody. Not Juubito. Not Galactus. Not a fusion of the two. Juubitolactus could dominate him, but Itachi would be impressive regardless.​


Depends what your definition of "fodderize" is. I'm sure if Itachi was in the fight right now he'd do something impressive, which would be met with limited success, and than he'd be beaten down by Juubiobito. So if that's "fodderized" than yes he would be & if that's not than no he wouldn't be. 

And you can claim Kishimoto's favoritism for Itachi wouldn't allow that all you want, but it's totally fabricated. To my knowledge Kishimoto has never claimed Itachi was his favorite character, however he has indicated Naruto, Sasuke, & Shikkamaru are, all of which after doing some impressive shit have found themselves at Juubi's mercy at some point in the battle. 



> Kishimoto had Itachi intentionally hold back against Kabuto in order to defeat Edo Tensei, and then finish him even when Kabuto had knowledge and abilities to prevent Itachi's specialty.


Itachi holding back killer intent was bi-product of Kabuto's own technique. A technique Itachi didn't even have to face the full power of, since he didn't have to fight Kabuto + his Tensei, just Kabuto. 

But you seem to miss the point. The Kabuto battle illustrates that in Kishimoto's eyes Itachi is not infallible. Itachi making mistakes is highlighted heavily in that battle. We have Itachi admitting all his previous plans failed & him messing up twice in the battle with Kabuto, which would have resulted in his death if not for Sasuke & Edo Buffs. Even after Itachi admits his prior mistakes and works together with Sasuke his plan to end Edo Tensei is met with limit success since Madara counters it. 

So the author is more than willing to show Itachi get beat down, fail, & be met with limited success. It's only Itachi-fans who  project the image of infallibility on Itachi, not the author.That's not to say the author doesn't portray Itachi in a good light, he does & that's why once again if Itachi was in this battle he'd probably do something impressive before being beaten down, but ultimately we'd eventually see him get beaten down like Tobirama & Hiruzen were.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 23, 2013)

Nobody's used the word infallible but you, and I never said Itachi would beat Juubito if portrayal was a factor.​


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## Trojan (Jul 23, 2013)

> To my knowledge Kishimoto has never claimed Itachi was his favorite character,


he actually did.


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## blk (Jul 23, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I assume your referring to this moment as the time when Minato was making eye contact with Obito:
> (1)
> 
> You do realize that Minato was goading Obito into using an attack so Obito would become tangible and he could hit him. For instance if Obito went to use Genjutsu at the start of that charge he'd have become tangible and been killed by the FTG Kunai. If he went to use Genjutsu after phasing through the Kuni, Minato inches away from him with a Rasengan attack, so he'd be hit by the Rasengan long before he could complete the casting of the Genjutsu, hence Obito having to use his fatest attack in that instance which was not Genjutsu, but rather Kamui Warp.
> ...



Not only in that instance, but basically during the whole encounter (you can clearly see that Minato almost always stared at his face).

If Obito is that slow at using genjutsu, it's just his fault; Itachi was shown more than once to use them almost at the same moment that one saw his eyes (or finger).

Obito didn't even try to use genjutsu, so as far as i'm concerned this speak nothing about Minato's ability to counter _Itachi's_ genjutsu.
Heck, seeing how young the former was, he might not even had any particularly strong genjutsu to use against humans.

With manga knowledge (or less) Itachi is for Minato basically a random/unknown Uchiha, therefore the chances that the latter will suddenly fight without watching his eyes even once is extremely low (also because he needs to see his eyes at least once for realize that his opponent has the sharingan, and this all what's needed for Itachi to end the fight).


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2013)

blk said:


> Not only in that instance, but basically during the whole encounter (you can clearly see that Minato almost always stared at his face).
> 
> If Obito is that slow at using genjutsu, it's just his fault; Itachi was shown more than once to use them almost at the same moment that one saw his eyes (or finger).
> 
> ...


What other instance are you referring to because I can't recall a single one besides that. 

As for Obito's Genjutsu speed, he seemed able to cast it perfectly fast enough against Konan & Kyuubi (yeah he Genjutsu'd Kyuubi that night so he's Genjutsu prowess just fine despite his age). It's not that Obito is slow with Genjutsu, it's that Minato is that fast. Again it's the same issue that Madara had with the Raikage where he had to hold him down to land Genjutsu on him.


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## blk (Jul 23, 2013)

Turrin said:


> What other instance are you referring to because I can't recall a single one besides that.
> 
> As for Obito's Genjutsu speed, he seemed able to cast it perfectly fast enough against Konan & Kyuubi (yeah he Genjutsu'd Kyuubi that night so he's Genjutsu prowess just fine despite his age). It's not that Obito is slow with Genjutsu, it's that Minato is that fast. Again it's the same issue that Madara had with the Raikage where he had to hold him down to land Genjutsu on him.



These instances [1 ; 2].

Obito's genjutsu prowess could have been not that great against humans, as far as we know: there is a difference between mind-controlling a beast and stunning an human.

Minato without Hirashin is not as fast as the Raikage, infact we can clearly see that he and Obito went against each other at the same pace.
Considering that Obito isn't faster than Kakashi, who in turn isn't faster than Itachi, demonstrates that the problem wasn't speed (otherwise Kakashi, or even Sasuke, should have been able to counter Itachi's genjutsu just by moving, something that they weren't able to do).

So, the fact that Obito didn't used genjutsu doesn't tell us anything of value.
Also, as i wrote, Minato would at least need to watch Itachi's eyes once for realize that he has the sharingan; but this equates to the end of the match.
The point stands, without full knowledge there are no credible reasons for why Minato should be able to avoid Itachi's genjutsu more than not.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 23, 2013)

blk said:


> These instances [1 ; 2].



*Minato could be looking anywhere in those panels.No clear eye contact is actually shown.





			Obito's genjutsu prowess could have been not that great against humans, as far as we know: there is a difference between mind-controlling a beast and stunning an human.
		
Click to expand...


Obito controlled Yagura for years.He used it to defeat Konan etc




			Minato without Hirashin is not as fast as the Raikage,
		
Click to expand...


Actually, yes he is.Raikage doesn't just admit inferiority to S/T techniques, otherwise he would've included Obito.





			Considering that Obito isn't faster than Kakashi, who in turn isn't faster than Itachi, demonstrates that the problem wasn't speed
		
Click to expand...



That's just Kishimoto not giving a crap for consistency in favor of his crappy storytelling.


Kakashi doesn't have Konoha crossing in seconds-shunshins, his shunshin was never hyped in the first place, unlike Minato's.






			(otherwise Kakashi, or even Sasuke, should have been able to counter Itachi's genjutsu just by moving, something that they weren't able to do).
		
Click to expand...


Kakashi and Sasuke were completely stationary and not trying to avoid eye contact in the first place.They both thought/assumed they can take it thanks to their sharingans.





			Also, as i wrote, Minato would at least need to watch Itachi's eyes once for realize that he has the sharingan; but this equates to the end of the match.
The point stands, without full knowledge there are no credible reasons for why Minato should be able to avoid Itachi's genjutsu more than not.
		
Click to expand...




Itachi doesn't instantly cast the genjutsu the moment eye contact is made.He needs to realize it first.And anything other than Tsukuyomi ain't bringing Minato down, and he should be able to escape with Hirashin.


People seriously need to wake up.If genjutsu worked the way you hope it did, Madara would not have gotten pwned by Hashirama on a regular basis, and Izuna should've been > Tobirama instead of the opposite.*


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## Blur (Jul 23, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Wow, this thread is full of biases.
> anyway, itachi is weaker than base Jman people,
> that his overall level. deal with it.
> 
> and as bonus



Minatards taking things out of context as always.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Jul 23, 2013)

blk said:


> Minato without Hirashin is not as fast as the Raikage, infact we can clearly see that he and Obito went against each other at the same pace.



Minato was trying to match his speed so he could attack when he materialized.


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## Vice (Jul 23, 2013)

Blur said:


> Minatards taking things out of context as always.



Yeah, you Itachi-tards _never_ do that.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 23, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> Why are you guys indulging in such fuckery?
> 
> We were already having 10 page plus Minato vs Itachi debates before he got KCM. Like what the honest fuck.
> 
> Stop feeding into these Itachi fans reality. All arguing back with them is doing is reinforcing the stupid idea in their mind that they actually have a genuine argument. I mean shit, if people were debating with me for 10 pages...I'd truly believe I have an argument too!



This.

This is the reason the BD turned into such a shitty place.

Itachi fans want to maintain Itachi at the highest level possible despite him not having adequate feats that puts him there in the first place.

I mean the guy struggled as fuck against Kabuto and he has Sauce as aid, plus against Nagato.

and you're comparing him to a guy that reacted to Juubito who's leagues above Nagato and Kabuto in everything.

Heck even Itachi admitted that Jiraiya is his equal, and Jiraiya is no where near Minato.

also he was Obito's puppy for like 7 years or something ....

no matter it is feats or portrayal he is inferior.

guys just stop feeding those trolls.


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## narutoish (Jul 23, 2013)

Namikaze Minato said:


> This.
> 
> This is the reason the BD turned into such a shitty place.
> 
> ...




Actually itachi has his feats, it's minato who needs them now, itachi one paneled Nagato without trouble and saved naruto and bee in the process, against kabuto, he basically defeated whim without killong him, while kabuto had insane regen and senses, as of now I don't see minato doing what itachi did, and if you are going to use the jiraya's example, then I suggest you don't bother posting in the battle dome.


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2013)

narutoish said:


> itachi one paneled Nagato without trouble and saved naruto and bee in the process



Naruto, Bee, & Itachi were all required in stopping Nagato. Itachi played the mind, so it does apear he contributed the most. However, without Bijuudama & Rasenshuriken, Itachi would've have been defeated. 

The fight between Nagato & Itachi has always been "does Itachi manage to hit Nagato with something fatal before Nagato uses Chibaku Tensei." Neither one-panels the other.



> against kabuto, he basically defeated whim without killong him, while kabuto had insane regen and senses,



The only reason Itachi pulled that stunt was because he was an Edo with limitless Chakra & an immortal body. Actually, I lied. There's another reason. Itachi was backed by EMS Sasuke, another high-tier to low-top tier. There's two, major reasons that Itachi succeeded in the first place.



> as of now I don't see minato doing what itachi did



I don't either, but I don't even see Juubito doing what Itachi did. Itachi is the only one that could've stopped Edo Tensei, because of Tsukuyomi.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 23, 2013)

Namikaze Minato said:


> I mean the guy struggled as fuck against Kabuto and he has Sauce as aid, plus against Nagato.



Itachi and Sasuke vs Kabuto wasn't even a fight. The Uchiha bros had to greatly hold back, hell Itachi held back in that fight more than he did against Hebi Sasuke. SM Kabuto couldn't take either of them if they were actually going for the kill. 

Against Nagato, we saw how fast Itachi gets the kill when he really wants to 



> Heck even Itachi admitted that Jiraiya is his equal, and Jiraiya is no where near Minato.



Itachi was lying to throw off Kisame. Obito and the databook confirm Itachi lied to avoid fulfilling his part as AKatsuki. 




> no matter it is feats or portrayal he is inferior.



No.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 23, 2013)

Itachi fans are the kid:



WE'RE UNTOUCHABLE.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 23, 2013)

The Itachi vs Minato debate will stay strong until we see some genjutsu defense from Minato. No matter how powerful Minato gets, he will always be open to genjutsu attacks. We know excellent chakra control doesn't work (Shi got defeated by Sasuke genjutsu) and Jiraiya's Kai method (Naruto tried and failed) also doesn't work against Itachi's genjutsu. 

So right now no one can say Minato is on another level until Manga says it.


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## narutoish (Jul 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Naruto, Bee, & Itachi were all required in stopping Nagato. Itachi played the mind, so it does apear he contributed the most. However, without Bijuudama & Rasenshuriken, Itachi would've have been defeated.



It's debatable, if he had used his attack on the core instead of explaining it to naruto and bee it could've destroyed it, and what's to say he couldn't have repeated the attack if the first one didn't finish the job? But you have to admit, that nagatok fight was the only fight itachi was allowed to kill/seal his opponent, on any other fight he was held back one way or another.


> The only reason Itachi pulled that stunt was because he was an Edo with limitless Chakra & an immortal body. Actually, I lied. There's another reason. Itachi was backed by EMS Sasuke, another high-tier to low-top tier. There's two, major reasons that Itachi succeeded in the first place.



Well the only reason minato will doing anything is because of his edo body and KCM enhancement, also itachi didn't waste that much chakra in that fight anyway, and Sasuke was a support fighter at best who did get in the way at one point.


> I don't either, but I don't even see Juubito doing what Itachi did. Itachi is the only one that could've stopped Edo Tensei, because of Tsukuyomi.



And izanami, and that is my point, itachi has this unique set of abilities that grant him win against opponents who are rather strong. Now I know minato is really strong, but it does depend on his set of abilities which doesn't include genjutsu resistance.


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> So right now no one can say Minato is on another level until Manga says it.



I will always ask this question in response to this statement: Does Hashirama himself have a _solid_ defense against Genjutsu? Like The Sharingan, or a Bijuu inside him, etc?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 23, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> The Itachi vs Minato debate will stay strong until we see some genjutsu defense from Minato. No matter how powerful Minato gets, he will always be open to genjutsu attacks. We know excellent chakra control doesn't work (Shi got defeated by Sasuke genjutsu) and Jiraiya's Kai method (Naruto tried and failed) also doesn't work against Itachi's genjutsu.
> 
> So right now no one can say Minato is on another level until Manga says it.


Other than the manga going out of way to say he was part of the 'Four Strongest Soldiers'? Other than the manga constantly going on how strong he was, on that ONLY NARUTO could surpass him (Itachi no where mentioned to be on Minato's level)?

Oh, you bring up Naruto's attempt _300 chapters ago_ to show Jiraiya's method is ineffective against Itachi's genjutsu? When he was weaker, had sucky chakra control, was less intelligent and everything? 

Kakashi Hatake, show evidence that puts *FUCKING ITACHI* on Minato's level, not the fucking other way around.


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 23, 2013)

The Prodigy said:


> Itachi and Sasuke vs Kabuto wasn't even a fight. The Uchiha bros had to greatly hold back, hell Itachi held back in that fight more than he did against Hebi Sasuke. SM Kabuto couldn't take either of them if they were actually going for the kill.
> 
> Against Nagato, we saw how fast Itachi gets the kill when he really wants to



Also Kabuto had to hold back against Sauce, since he wanted to experiment on him.

and against Nagato both Bee and Naruto were required in defeating Nagato's CT.

Juubito trumps any opponent Itachi had to face, but no Itachi's feats are superior it seems.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 23, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi fans are the kid:
> 
> 
> 
> WE'RE UNTOUCHABLE.



That we are


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## Rain (Jul 23, 2013)

Namikaze Minato said:


> This.
> 
> This is the reason the BD turned into such a shitty place.
> 
> ...



If this is truly what you think then your understanding of the manga is so terrible that no one should take you seriously in any discussion.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 23, 2013)

Namikaze Minato said:


> Also Kabuto had to hold back against Sauce, since he wanted to experiment on him.



Now if we were to scale he advantages/disadvantages 

seriously Kabuto was less disadvantaged against the Uchiha bros then they were against him, this was said by Kabuto himself, Itachi, and Sasuke. Pretty much manga fact. 



> and against Nagato both Bee and Naruto were required in defeating Nagato's CT.



I never said they weren't. I'm just saying when he's actually going for the kill, no questions asked, shit gets done and fast.



> Juubito trumps any opponent Itachi had to face, but no Itachi's feats are superior it seems.



Juubito trumps all opponents everyone have faced except perhaps the original Rikudou Sennin himself. That doesn't downplay Itachi, at all.


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## Rob (Jul 23, 2013)

I hope everyone here understands that this is a spite thread... and that the OP probably isn't "New Here", but is just a dupe...


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## blk (Jul 23, 2013)

Deshi Basara said:


> *Minato could be looking anywhere in those panels.No clear eye contact is actually shown.*


*

He was clearly looking at the mask.





			Obito controlled Yagura for years.He used it to defeat Konan etc
		
Click to expand...


This was all done after the fight against Minato. Irrelevant.




			Actually, yes he is.Raikage doesn't just admit inferiority to S/T techniques, otherwise he would've included Obito.
		
Click to expand...


And what the Raikage knows exactly about Obito?
But either way, your reasoning is fallacious.

The bottom line is that Minato couldn't compete with his raw speed against the Raikage.




			That's just Kishimoto not giving a crap for consistency in favor of his crappy storytelling.


Kakashi doesn't have Konoha crossing in seconds-shunshins, his shunshin was never hyped in the first place, unlike Minato's.


Kakashi and Sasuke were completely stationary and not trying to avoid eye contact in the first place.They both thought/assumed they can take it thanks to their sharingans.
		
Click to expand...


No, you can't just say "it was an inconsistency" when your argument takes benefit from it.

There are absolutely no reasons for why Minato should avoid Itachi's eyes as the black death without knowing what they are capable of.







Itachi doesn't instantly cast the genjutsu the moment eye contact is made.He needs to realize it first.And anything other than Tsukuyomi ain't bringing Minato down, and he should be able to escape with Hirashin.


People seriously need to wake up.If genjutsu worked the way you hope it did, Madara would not have gotten pwned by Hashirama on a regular basis, and Izuna should've been > Tobirama instead of the opposite.
		
Click to expand...

*
Genjutsu are not for kill the opponent, but for stun him.
Once Minato is inside one his body will be helpless for a certain amount of time that depends on how much time he needs to realize that his mind is trapped and on how much time he needs for break the genjutsu.
Since he lack feats in both of the categories, and Itachi is arguably the strongest genjutsu user in the manga, the probability that Minato will be able to do something before getting a kunai in the head is extremely low.



The Dreaded Alias said:


> Minato was trying to match his speed so he could attack when he materialized.



Baseless assertion (not that anything will change even if it is the case).


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Jul 23, 2013)

blk said:


> Baseless assertion (not that anything will change even if it is the case).



Its also a baseless assertion to say that was his top speed, especially since his shunshin was clearly said to be superior to even Tobirama's.


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## blk (Jul 23, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> Its also a baseless assertion to say that was his top speed, especially since his shunshin was clearly said to be superior to even Tobirama's.



And?
It might have not be his top speed, or perhaps yes; whatever it is it's irrelevant, because that's the speed that we ought to use for make an analysis based on something concrete.


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2013)

blk said:


> These instances [1


Obito's using Kamui there stopping Minato's movements temporarily. So once again we see the need for stopping a speedsters movements, however in this instance Genjutsu was not possible as Obito was already using Kamui.



> 2].


In this instance there is absolutely no way to tell that Minato was making eye contact. But if Minato was as open to Genjutsu as you say than why didn't Obito use it on him?



> Obito's genjutsu prowess could have been not that great against humans, as far as we know: there is a difference between mind-controlling a beast and stunning an human.


That makes no sense. Kyuubi's chakra is more powerful than most humans, so if he's able to control Kyuubi's chakra he should have little problem doing so against most people. Not to mention we see him casting it on Kushina as well:
1

Than right around the same time he put Yagura the perfect Jinchuuriki in a Genjutsu so strong he could control him like a puppet.

It also doesn't make sense that Obito could use Dojutsu techniques far more advanced than Sharingan Genjutsu, which would be unable to use Sharingan Genjutsu. It also doesn't make sense in context with Madara stating he was going to teach Obito Inyoton Jutsu, which we know refers to Genjutsu.



> Minato without Hirashin is not as fast as the Raikage, infact we can clearly see that he and Obito went against each other at the same pace.
> Considering that Obito isn't faster than Kakashi, who in turn isn't faster than Itachi, demonstrates that the problem wasn't speed (otherwise Kakashi, or even Sasuke, should have been able to counter Itachi's genjutsu just by moving, something that they weren't able to do).


The problem is that this assessment does not account for Shunshin, FTG, or KCM.

Yes if all Minato used was his base foot speed throughout the entire battle than i'm sure Itachi would have much less trouble making eye-contact and casting Genjutsu on him, but Minato uses all 3 of the above things augmenting his speed dramatically.



> So, the fact that Obito didn't used genjutsu doesn't tell us anything of value.


The fact that Minato went up against one of the strongest Uchiha in the manga and didn't get Genjutsu raped, means Minato skills obviously makes it harder to catch him in Genjutsu than most shinobi.



> Also, as i wrote, Minato would at least need to watch Itachi's eyes once for realize that he has the sharingan; but this equates to the end of the match.


Minato can look in Itachi's eyes all that matters is that he's not looking in them when Itachi casts Genjutsu. So Minato can look in Itachi's eyes and than move out of eye contact before Itachi can Cast Genjutsu.

I'm not saying speed is a cure all to Genjutsu, what i'm saying is that it makes casting it on someone much more difficult. That combined with the other counters Minato has to Genjutsu such as Summons, KB, Kyuubi Chakra, insane chakra control, and FTG teleporting outside the casters range, it's going to be insanely difficult to catch Minato with Genjutsu and make it  stick,



Kakashi Hatake said:


> The Itachi vs Minato debate will stay strong until we see some genjutsu defense from Minato. No matter how powerful Minato gets, he will always be open to genjutsu attacks. We know excellent chakra control doesn't work (Shi got defeated by Sasuke genjutsu) and Jiraiya's Kai method (Naruto tried and failed) also doesn't work against Itachi's genjutsu.


Minato has already shown a number of different defenses for Genjutsu, so the debate should already be over if that is the one things keeping it going. The fact of the matter is a defense or even multiple defenses isn't enough for Itachi-fans rather than want Minato to display an outright immunity, which is just silly since no one has displayed an immunity to Genjutsu in the entire manga.

Superior Chakra Control does make someone more equipped to break out of a Genjutsu. Naruto is far from a chakra control master and while i'm sure C is very good at chakra control, nothing indicates he represents the highest level possible to achieve with Chakra Control. So nether example really matters.



> So right now no one can say Minato is on another level until Manga says it.


Rikudo hasn't shown Genjutsu immunity and nether has Juubiobito, but people can safely say for sure that those two are on another level than Itachi. So this a character has to show Genjutsu immunity to be on another level from Itachi is BS. All a character needs is good enough defense to making it more unlikely that Itachi would win with Genjutsu than it is that they would win with whatever move-set they have; Minato fits that.

For example Itachi hans't shown an immunity to  Samehada, being drowned, and Water Shark Missile, but that doesn't mean it's likely he'd loose to one of those things before he beats Kisame.


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2013)

I think that as Hokage of the leaf, Minato should know all about the Genjutsu prowess of the Uchiha.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 23, 2013)

blk said:


> He was clearly looking at the mask.



*Looking at the mask =/= direct eye contact.




			This was all done after the fight against Minato. Irrelevant.
		
Click to expand...


The only thing irrelevant is your response here.How about you give reasons and facts for why his genjutsu only improved AFTER controlling Kuarama?




			And what the Raikage knows exactly about Obito?
But either way, your reasoning is fallacious.
		
Click to expand...


Ei saw Obito casually slip through his fastest punch.He saw him teleport in and out of the Kage summit.What more did he need to see?




			The bottom line is that Minato couldn't compete with his raw speed against the Raikage.
		
Click to expand...


Baseless.Minato had already spread the kunai, so of course he would use his Hirashin.


If you meant how he got suprised by Ei's first punch, that had to with reaction speed, not his foot on speed.






			No, you can't just say "it was an inconsistency" when your argument takes benefit from it.
		
Click to expand...


How about you read my post properly before attempting to respond?I already gave my reasons as to why it was an inconsistency:

"Kakashi doesn't have Konoha crossing in seconds-shunshins, his shunshin was never hyped in the first place, unlike Minato's."




			There are absolutely no reasons for why Minato should avoid Itachi's eyes as the black death without knowing what they are capable of.
		
Click to expand...



How about for the fact that Minato is not an idiot and he comes from the same village that knows most about Uchiha, considering they frigging lived there?


The only reason he would not avoid eye contact is if he has a sure proof counter.





			Genjutsu are not for kill the opponent, but for stun him.
Once Minato is inside one his body will be helpless for a certain amount of time that depends on how much time he needs to realize that his mind is trapped and on how much time he needs for break the genjutsu.
Since he lack feats in both of the categories, and Itachi is arguably the strongest genjutsu user in the manga, t
		
Click to expand...


I loved how you completely ignored my example with Hashirama and Tobirama (who also don't have genjutsu countering feats, btw)

Anyway, Minato is a sensor and they can tell if they are in a  genjutsu or not:

1




			he probability that Minato will be able to do something before getting a kunai in the head is extremely low.
		
Click to expand...


gotta love that fanfiction.


*


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## Sadgoob (Jul 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I think that as Hokage of the leaf, Minato should know all about the Genjutsu prowess of the Uchiha.



It can definitely be inferred from Orochimaru's dialogue with Itachi that the "Uchiha prowess" in paralyzing opponents can be willed away by elites, but not "Itachi prowess."



Obviously, Orochimaru knew about the dōjutsu. He said it was impossible for a binding illusion _to bind him_, because normal Uchiha wouldn't be able to do that. Only the king of genjutsu. 

This also explains why many elites don't bother to avoid looking at the Sharingan unless it's Itachi.​


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## eyeknockout (Jul 23, 2013)

if it is an alive itachi vs alive minato then it would be an extreme difficulty win for itachi since itachi is perfect for deflecting kunais and is fast enough to avoid/keep up with minato's shunshins, so there's no real way of minato reaching itachi, and even if he did reach itachi he's bound to get trapped in genjutsu unless he decides to go CQC with his eyes closed and at that point minato would be nowhere near good enough to defeat itachi with his eyes closed. sure a hokage level ninja should have great genjutsu dispelling feats, but that doesn't mean that he even has a chance against the best genjutsu user ever (the same as third hokage being a hokage so he should have amazing defense capabilities, yet a sword could still pierce his skin, so clearly it's not what you use, but how you use it and itachi with his genjutsu is some of the most skillful tactics in the manga.)

edo minato vs edo itachi is actually harder than you would think to choose, of course the general consensus would be "well if they were nearly equal before then obviously the chakra from the nine tails would put minato way above", well not exactly. this is because if we allow edo minato to have KCM then we also allow itachi to have kotoamatsukami (nine tails was a power minato didn't have when he was alive and never got to use it, itachi and koto were almost the exact same even though there is some evidence he did use it once before). 
 considering almost nobody has knowledge of kotoamatsukami you really think minato would not look at a crow? I mean sure he's a genius and everything, but if you see a crow flying towards you are you seriously telling me you would not look at it to see why a random crow is flying towards you? and since we know minato won't bamflash unless he gets a tag near itachi, itachi has the time to send out the crow to genjutsu minato. so i'll say even as edos it can go eitherway.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 23, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato doesn't have A's reaction speed though(with the raiton shround ofc).
> 
> Also Itachi has faster reactions than Sasuke, who outpaced Minato and saved Naruto with his Susano'o activation this chapter.



Itachi has _slightly_ better reactions then Sasuke. Sasuke didn't outpace Minato.


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## narutoish (Jul 23, 2013)

eyeknockout said:


> if it is an alive itachi vs alive minato then it would be an extreme difficulty win for itachi since itachi is perfect for deflecting kunais and is fast enough to avoid/keep up with minato's shunshins, so there's no real way of minato reaching itachi, and even if he did reach itachi he's bound to get trapped in genjutsu unless he decides to go CQC with his eyes closed and at that point minato would be nowhere near good enough to defeat itachi with his eyes closed. sure a hokage level ninja should have great genjutsu dispelling feats, but that doesn't mean that he even has a chance against the best genjutsu user ever (the same as third hokage being a hokage so he should have amazing defense capabilities, yet a sword could still pierce his skin, so clearly it's not what you use, but how you use it and itachi with his genjutsu is some of the most skillful tactics in the manga.)
> 
> edo minato vs edo itachi is actually harder than you would think to choose, of course the general consensus would be "well if they were nearly equal before then obviously the chakra from the nine tails would put minato way above", well not exactly. this is because if we allow edo minato to have KCM then we also allow itachi to have kotoamatsukami (nine tails was a power minato didn't have when he was alive and never got to use it, itachi and koto were almost the exact same even though there is some evidence he did use it once before).
> considering almost nobody has knowledge of kotoamatsukami you really think minato would not look at a crow? I mean sure he's a genius and everything, but if you see a crow flying towards you are you seriously telling me you would not look at it to see why a random crow is flying towards you? and since we know minato won't bamflash unless he gets a tag near itachi, itachi has the time to send out the crow to genjutsu minato. so i'll say even as edos it can go eitherway.



 I was thinking the same thing.


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## Rocky (Jul 23, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> It can definitely be inferred from Orochimaru's dialogue with Itachi that the "Uchiha prowess" in paralyzing opponents can be willed away by elites, but not "Itachi prowess."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There are things that indicate otherwise, such as ninja seemingly avoiding eye contact with other Uchiha, like Sasuke &  Madara.

Nevertheless, if you want to take that route, what's to say Minato's super elite legendaryness wouldn't be enough to overcome Itachi? 

Also, considering how Minato's supposed to fight super fast an all, why would he even look at Itachi's eye's in the first place? Why wouldn't he run Itachi down, in an attempt to touch him?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 23, 2013)

I'm pretty sure, at one point, Gaara told everybody to looks at Madara's eyes. Gaara also commented on Sasuke's eyes still harboring hatred. A looked at Sasuke's eyes, etc.

Similarly, I don't really recall ninja being carful to avoid Sasuke's eyes when Itachi himself wasn't present. And as famous as Minato is, Itachi is top dog in genjutsu, so I don't see it being brushed off.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 23, 2013)

If it means anything, Tobirama did defeat a MS user (arguably more powerful than Itachi) using Hiraishin. What's to say Minato can't do the same?


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## Sadgoob (Jul 23, 2013)

Hashirama did defeat Madara with a clone feint. Therefore, who's to say Itachi can't do the same?​


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 23, 2013)

Rain said:


> If this is truly what you think then your understanding of the manga is so terrible that no one should take you seriously in any discussion.


so says the 2012 nub itachi fan.


The Prodigy said:


> Now if we were to scale he advantages/disadvantages
> 
> seriously Kabuto was less disadvantaged against the Uchiha bros then they were against him, this was said by Kabuto himself, Itachi, and Sasuke. Pretty much manga fact.


he's less disadvantaged when he was being ganged on by 2 MS users and he was alone?  Kay.


> Juubito trumps all opponents everyone have faced except perhaps the original Rikudou Sennin himself. That doesn't downplay Itachi, at all.


It doesn't make sense when you bump Itachi's feats to match the feat of a Shinobi who's performing splendidly against Juubito.

We're past Itachi's level in the manga now, and the Gokage's as well, That's the whole point of making the Hokage handle Juubito.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 23, 2013)

Hiruzen's shuriken jutsu surpasses the Gokage and Itachi. 

Sasuke just saved Naruto with partial Susano'o. This battle's level hasn't eclipsed Itachi at all. His brains, insight, items, and jutsu would make him a top performer, plus the Gokage are en route.​


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## The Prodigy (Jul 23, 2013)

Namikaze Minato said:


> he's less disadvantaged when he was being ganged on by 2 MS users and he was alone?  Kay.



he's less disadvantaged when you consider he had the territorial advantage, and those 2 MS users couldn't use their MS against them, only in defense or to trap him. Even then, the extent to which they had to hold back in fear of killing him. 



> It doesn't make sense when you bump Itachi's feats to match the feat of a Shinobi who's performing splendidly against Juubito.



No ones performing splendid against Obito 



> We're past Itachi's level in the manga now, and the Gokage's as well, That's the whole point of making the Hokage handle Juubito.



The Hokages are getting ripped to shreds, handling Obito de loca


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 23, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If it means anything, Tobirama did defeat a MS user (arguably more powerful than Itachi) using Hiraishin. What's to say Minato can't do the same?



need to spread more to neg you again


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## Yagura (Jul 23, 2013)

> I love how you completely ignored my example with Ei.



Because it was a bad example. Madara wasn't at all taking the Kage seriously, so saying he didn't use Genjutsu because he couldn't is a shaky argument.



> Please explain how Itachi will instantly realize that Minato has made eye contact and cast the genjutsu before Minato has moved away?You realize we are talking about Minato, right?



Sharingan pre-cognition obviously. 

But let's be clear here; if Minato even for an instant makes eye contact with Itachi he'll be caught. Itachi's reactions are superb as is his jutsu speed in addition to having the Sharingan. He's roughly equal to base Minato, really.



> Gai specializes in taijutsu, that's why he needs that training.Minato's fighting style is simple = wrap in + rasengan/kunai slash.There is no need for eye contact at all.



Multiple characters have noted the difficulty of avoiding eye contact during battle.



> Not to mention how you conveniently forgot that Minato can make Bunshins as well.



Not really IC. Minato only did so because he was tied up holding the barrier. 



> Sensing that someone is trying to mess with your own chakra requires a different ability now?



Feeling out irregularities in an individual's chakra flow ≠ recognizing someone by they're chakra.



> Itachi had to stop Oro in the real world from breaking from his genjutsu.



'Many' genjutsu not 'all'. Tsukiyomi and Utakata in particular illustrate what I was referring to.


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## tanman (Jul 23, 2013)

Five Minato threads on the front page.
Three of them pit him against Itachi.

_This_ is why we can't have nice things.


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## eyeknockout (Jul 24, 2013)

tanman said:


> Five Minato threads on the front page.
> Three of them pit him against Itachi.
> 
> _This_ is why we can't have nice things.



without itachi vs minato threads the forums would suck. it would just be a bunch of threads with like 2 pages max and no deleted posts or banned members or raging fanboys, or overly obsessive hatred by the same 5 members in the forums or intense amounts of negging. That sounds horrible who would want something so bad?


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 24, 2013)

Yagura said:


> Because it was a bad example. Madara wasn't at all taking the Kage seriously, so saying he didn't use Genjutsu because he couldn't is a shaky argument.




*

The only thing bad is your response.


He wasn't taking em seriously... that's why he didn't use genjutsu earlier... so i guess he was taking this fodder seriously:

wind sphere of naruto's current FRS


And for someone who didn't want to bother with genjutsu, he sure put some work accomplishing that.


And how does Onoki know Madara's skill with genjutsu (when they still thought he was Tobi and when Yamato got captured, Onoki warned the Alliance that Madara will make Yamato his bitch with his genjutsu) if Madara doesn't use genjutsu against people that he doesn't take seriously?

MADARA ALSO FLAT OUT STATED, THAT HE ALLOWED HIMSELF TO GET HIT BY JINTON SO THEY COULD SEE HASHIRAMA'S FACE ON HIS CHEST-WHICH HE HOPED WOULD BREAK THEIR WILL TO FIGHT.


So, if he wanted to break them, why wouldn't he use genjutsu any earlier?





			Sharingan pre-cognition obviously. 

Click to expand...


It doesn't work that way, mate.





			But let's be clear here; if Minato even for an instant makes eye contact with Itachi he'll be caught. Itachi's reactions are superb as is his jutsu speed in addition to having the Sharingan. He's roughly equal to base Minato, really.
		
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That still won't help him keep up with the faster character in the manga.





			Multiple characters have noted the difficulty of avoiding eye contact during battle.
		
Click to expand...


And which of them had as easy of a fighting style as Minato and is a sensor?


Not to mention that Naruto was avoiding eye contact forcing Itachi to reasort to finger and genjutsu tricks.




			Not really IC. Minato only did so because he was tied up holding the barrier.
		
Click to expand...



If he wants to avoid eye contact, and you believe that he can't by himself, why won't he use a bunshin?




			Feeling out irregularities in an individual's chakra flow ≠ recognizing someone by they're chakra.
		
Click to expand...


Wait, what?What the fuck are you talking about?Irregularities in your own chakra is what allows sensors to pick up on being a genjutsu.





			'Many' genjutsu not 'all'. Tsukiyomi and Utakata in particular illustrate what I was referring to.
		
Click to expand...


Yeah, i wasn't arguing Tsukuyomi.Minato is fast enough to avoid it anyway.*


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## trance (Jul 24, 2013)

Question: Would someone fall to the Sharingan's genjutsu via peripheral vision?


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## Rain (Jul 24, 2013)

Namikaze Minato said:


> so says the 2012 nub itachi fan.



thats my point, its quite sad when someone who reads the manga for 4+ years has such terrible understanding of it.


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## blk (Jul 24, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Obito's using Kamui there stopping Minato's movements temporarily. So once again we see the need for stopping a speedsters movements, however in this instance Genjutsu was not possible as Obito was already using Kamui.
> 
> 
> In this instance there is absolutely no way to tell that Minato was making eye contact. But if Minato was as open to Genjutsu as you say than why didn't Obito use it on him?



The point is that Minato didn't refrained from looking at his face. He didn't even know that Obito couldn't use genjutsu while using Kamui (and actually, we also don't know if he can).

In the other instance Minato is looking at the mask; if there wasn't a mask the eye contact would have been likely done.

We don't know the precise reason for why Obito didn't used genjutsu against Minato, but this information is not relevant.
Because the fact that something didn't happened _is not evidence_ that the same _couldn't have happened_. Even more if we are talking about a different person.



> That makes no sense. Kyuubi's chakra is more powerful than most humans, so if he's able to control Kyuubi's chakra he should have little problem doing so against most people. Not to mention we see him casting it on Kushina as well:
> *wind sphere of naruto's current FRS*
> 
> Than right around the same time he put Yagura the perfect Jinchuuriki in a Genjutsu so strong he could control him like a puppet.
> ...



Ok, i can accept this point.



> The problem is that this assessment does not account for Shunshin, FTG, or KCM.
> 
> Yes if all Minato used was his base foot speed throughout the entire battle than i'm sure Itachi would have much less trouble making eye-contact and casting Genjutsu on him, but Minato uses all 3 of the above things augmenting his speed dramatically.
> 
> ...



His Shunshin and his KCM form are nothing special. It's also questionable if he is going to use the KCM against a random person (since we are assuming manga knowledge or less).

The moment when Minato looks at Itachi's eyes, the latter will cast a genjutsu.
And _again_, it's not like he knows that Itachi can cast powerful genjutsu or when he does so.
The rest of what you are suggesting doesn't matter in a scenario where Minato doesn't even know the capabilities of the opposition; he's going down before even one of those things becomes a factor.




Deshi Basara said:


> *Looking at the mask =/= direct eye contact.*


*

This because Obito had a mask, but against an enemy without a mask making eye contact while looking at his face is extremely probable.




			The only thing irrelevant is your response here.How about you give reasons and facts for why his genjutsu only improved AFTER controlling Kuarama?
		
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I never claimed that he improved, but merely proposed the possibility.
You are claiming that he didn't improved, so you should provide compelling evidences for such convinction.




			Ei saw Obito casually slip through his fastest punch.He saw him teleport in and out of the Kage summit.What more did he need to see?
		
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How do he even know that he teleported? If he realized it, how could he know if that jutsu had particular limits? 

Either way, as i said, your reasoning is outright not logically valid:

- Ei said that Minato is faster than him;

- Ei didn't included Obito;

- Therefore, Ei didn't referred to Hirashin (an S/T jutsu).

In deductive reasoning the conclusion must be necessarily true. This means, in other words, that it shouldn't be possible to state another logically valid possibility regarding the matter (which imply that such possibility will be self-refuting or based on a logical fallacy).
However, the moment that a logically acceptable possibility can be stated (such as "Ei didn't remembered that Obito had an S/T the moment he affirmed the above"), the deductive reasoning is shut down; why? Because if there are other logically valid possibilities (regardless of how plausible they are) then the reasoning is not necessarily true.

Therefore, your argument is invalid.




			Baseless.Minato had already spread the kunai, so of course he would use his Hirashin.


If you meant how he got suprised by Ei's first punch, that had to with reaction speed, not his foot on speed.
		
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"Of course"? You are still passing off a possibility for a necessarily true conclusion.
Invalid reasoning.

If his reactions are not at the level of Ei, but his raw speed is superior, this means that he can't control such superior speed.





			How about you read my post properly before attempting to respond?I already gave my reasons as to why it was an inconsistency:

"Kakashi doesn't have Konoha crossing in seconds-shunshins, his shunshin was never hyped in the first place, unlike Minato's."
		
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Maybe Minato used Hirashin for teleport in a near building and then jumped above the Kyuubi.




			How about for the fact that Minato is not an idiot and he comes from the same village that knows most about Uchiha, considering they frigging lived there?


The only reason he would not avoid eye contact is if he has a sure proof counter.
		
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Asuma, Kurenai and Kakashi knew that Itachi was an Uchiha prodigy, yet they didn't avoided eye contact if not when the latter used the MS (Kakashi didn't avoided it even in that case). They had more knowledge on Itachi than a manga-knowledge Minato would have.
Same goes for Orochimaru, who is also more skilled than Minato in genjutsu.

Against Obito and Madara, i don't remember even one person trying to avoid eye-contact (despite their fame).

So, i don't see why Minato should avoid eye contact if matched against an unknown (for him) person.




			I loved how you completely ignored my example with Hashirama and Tobirama (who also don't have genjutsu countering feats, btw)

Anyway, Minato is a sensor and they can tell if they are in a  genjutsu or not:

wind sphere of naruto's current FRS

Click to expand...

*
Your examples had no substance, we don't know much about the various battles that Hashirama, Madara, Tobirama and Izuna had. Not that Minato has _anything_ to do with these people.

From when can Minato sense chakra?

Let's put an end to this: show me feats of Minato breaking high level genjutsu or avoiding eye contact against unknown people.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 24, 2013)

blk said:


> This because Obito had a mask, but against an enemy without a mask making eye contact while looking at his face is extremely probable.



*Again, where is your proof of direct eye contact?You were so sure of yourself awhile ago.





			I never claimed that he improved, but merely proposed the possibility.
You are claiming that he didn't improved, so you should provide compelling evidences for such convinction.
		
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That makes no sense, as Obito being weak against genjutsu against humans makes no sense after controlling Kurama.






			How do he even know that he teleported? If he realized it, how could he know if that jutsu had particular limits?
		
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He saw him teleport in and out of the Kage summit.

"- Ei said that Minato is faster than him;

- Ei didn't included Obito;

- Therefore, Ei didn't referred to Hirashin (an S/T jutsu)."


Yep.The rest of your point is irrelevant beating around the bush designed to hide your lack of a proper counter argument.




			If his reactions are not at the level of Ei, but his raw speed is superior, this means that he can't control such superior speed.
		
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Not really.Naruto has slower reactions than Ei (getting hit by Han's kick etc) but is still faster than him when utilizing the "yellow flash" shunshin.Which he was able to control perfectly well, especially when handling the Bijuu-damas.




			Maybe Minato used Hirashin for teleport in a near building and then jumped above the Kyuubi.
		
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Kishi always emphasize on the things Minato teleports to, be that a kunai or a tag.ALWAYS.

And you still haven't answered the point about Kakashi's shunshin never being portrayed of being anywhere near Minato's level




			Asuma, Kurenai and Kakashi knew that Itachi was an Uchiha prodigy, yet they didn't avoided eye contact if not when the latter used the MS (Kakashi didn't avoided it even in that case). They had more knowledge on Itachi than a manga-knowledge Minato would have.
Same goes for Orochimaru, who is also more skilled than Minato in genjutsu.

Against Obito and Madara, i don't remember even one person trying to avoid eye-contact (despite their fame).

So, i don't see why Minato should avoid eye contact if matched against an unknown (for him) person.
		
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Asuma and Kurenai were clueless as fuck.

Kakashi thought he can take Itachi on because of his sharingan.

Exactly, Oro is better at genjutsu than Minato.Is also arrogant and full of himself.He was in complete disbelief that Itachi's genjutsu worked on him.That's why he didn't bother avoiding eye contact.Non of this relates to Minato in any shape or form.

Against Obito and Madara, it could be for any number of reasons.One of them being that with so many people around, Madara/Obito won't have a chance to genjutsu and single one of the Kage level shinobi for extinction, before any of the other Kage level shinobi has a chance to intervene.




			Your examples had no substance, we don't know much about the various battles that Hashirama, Madara, Tobirama and Izuna had. Not that Minato has anything to do with these people.

From when can Minato sense chakra?
		
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Nothing in common?Really?

Since when can Minato sense chakra?

Do me a favor and go read the manga before posting, no one is required to do it for you.

First of all, Tobirama and Hashirama also don't have genjutsu breaking feats.Second of all, Minato displayed the same exact sensing feats as Tobirama the proven sensor:



wind sphere of naruto's current FRS
wind sphere of naruto's current FRS

wind sphere of naruto's current FRS




			Let's put an end to this: show me feats of Minato breaking high level genjutsu or avoiding eye contact against unknown people.
		
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absence of evidence = evidence of absence

Perfect logic.How about you only come back when you actually have something to contribute?


And i can do that as well.Show me Itachi casting genjutsu on someone who's not completely stationary, show me Minato falling for genjutsu, show Minato even being implied of getting owned by genjutsu.Show me someone as fast as Minato getting caught in genjutsu without Kishi specifically going through the trouble of drawing this person being distracted by fighting multiple enemies and warring more about his comrades than his own skin.


*


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## Larcher (Jul 24, 2013)

Minato no KCM would be a fight for the ages the outcome off the fight would still be in his favour taking on board he would no about Genjutsu being a common factor in Uchiha and would avoid initial eye contact between him and would quickly set out all of his kunai along the area in which they will be fighting in.

This will also be good for the fact that Itachi's common trickery to lure people into Tsukyomi through straight up Taijutsu would be highly unlikely as he can just teleport out the way and he's certainly faster so Itachi will  be left under pressure end up very overwhelmed by his speed and won't be able to stay in base for much longer. 

As a result of this he needs to go into Susano'o to avoid getting bamflashed but before that he needs get out of thee area in which he has his tags around so Minato can't slip seals within the armour I'm sure Itachiu would work the tags and hirasion by now and would make it out of the area quickly use Susnao'o.

He will then be long range and the only way Mianto will get passed Susano'o is through slipping his seals within the Susano'o armour and I doubt using Space time barrier and redirecting his own attacks onto Susano'o will do any harm to the armour.

Mianto won't be totally out of the game as even the MS's fastest attacks like Ameterasu aren't going to hit him he's way to fast and Itachi staying in the same spot will just be to predictable so he has no choice but to move around to make his attacks harder for Minato to anticipate in the process Mianto will either out last Itachi to the point he can't keep up Susano as he has much superior stamina to Itachi and Mianto's victory form then on would be self explanatory or he slips his seals in the process of luring him in.

So over all Minato would win high diff 35/50 times regardless he is still on an overall basis stronger than Itachi being able to tie with the Kuruma in a tight circumstance in which he had to separate the Kuruma from the Konoha taking up a lot of chakra fight Obito and save is new born child's life.

His victory would also keep thetraditionof Senju>Uchiha going and is another factor to why Minato is stronger


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## Namikaze Minato (Jul 24, 2013)

The Prodigy said:


> he's less disadvantaged when you consider he had the territorial advantage, and those 2 MS users couldn't use their MS against them, only in defense or to trap him. Even then, the extent to which they had to hold back in fear of killing him.


You seem to be forgetting that Sauce said that they need to go at him with intent to kill, and Itachi basically agreed.

Dude why are you prolonging this? it's simple math really.



> No ones performing splendid against Obito
> 
> 
> 
> The Hokages are getting ripped to shreds, handling Obito de loca


Minato who just rescued Sauce and Naruto would beg to differ.

also it's better thab being stabbed and put in a genjutsu by a weakling like Kabuto then needing Sauce to help you out of the genjutsu compared to holding your own against Juubito the strongest in the Narutoverse while protecting Naruto and Sauce.

Minato was saved by the author for stronger villains because he is stronger.


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## blk (Jul 24, 2013)

Deshi Basara said:


> *Again, where is your proof of direct eye contact?You were so sure of yourself awhile ago.*


*

The mask might have impeded eye contact, i can accept that.
However, someone who wants to avoid eye contact at all costs (like some of you suggest) shouldn't look at someone's face (even if it doesn't immediatly equates to making eye-contact). But who knows, maybe Minato is not that smart.




			That makes no sense, as Obito being weak against genjutsu against humans makes no sense after controlling Kurama.
		
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It actually makes sense.
However, Turrin provided evidences already, so i concede this point.





			He saw him teleport in and out of the Kage summit.

"- Ei said that Minato is faster than him;

- Ei didn't included Obito;

- Therefore, Ei didn't referred to Hirashin (an S/T jutsu)."


Yep.The rest of your point is irrelevant beating around the bush designed to hide your lack of a proper counter argument.
		
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Is this a joke? Your reasoning is not logically valid.
Are you going to ignore the invalidity of it like this? If so, i'll also start to base my arguments on logical fallacies.




			Not really.Naruto has slower reactions than Ei (getting hit by Han's kick etc) but is still faster than him when utilizing the "yellow flash" shunshin.Which he was able to control perfectly well, especially when handling the Bijuu-damas.
		
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It was a surprise attack, not a speed blitz [1].
Moreover, Naruto reacted to Ei's max speed both mentally and physically, so i'm not sure what basis you have for your assertion that Ei has greater reflexes.




			Kishi always emphasize on the things Minato teleports to, be that a kunai or a tag.ALWAYS.

And you still haven't answered the point about Kakashi's shunshin never being portrayed of being anywhere near Minato's level
		
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Not always, it seems [2].

I'm answering your point by saying that it might not have been a Shunshin.




			Asuma and Kurenai were clueless as fuck.

Kakashi thought he can take Itachi on because of his sharingan.

Exactly, Oro is better at genjutsu than Minato.Is also arrogant and full of himself.He was in complete disbelief that Itachi's genjutsu worked on him.That's why he didn't bother avoiding eye contact.Non of this relates to Minato in any shape or form.

Against Obito and Madara, it could be for any number of reasons.One of them being that with so many people around, Madara/Obito won't have a chance to genjutsu and single one of the Kage level shinobi for extinction, before any of the other Kage level shinobi has a chance to intervene.
		
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Asuma and Kurenai had more knowledge about Itachi than a manga-knowledge Minato would have.

Like Kakashi did with someone who he knew, Minato might think that he can take on a random opponent even without avoid eye contact.

Like it could be for any number of reasons that people didn't avoided eye contact with the two more famed Uchiha of the story, Minato might not avoid eye contact against a random enemy for any number of reasons.




			Nothing in common?Really?

Since when can Minato sense chakra?

Do me a favor and go read the manga before posting, no one is required to do it for you.

First of all, Tobirama and Hashirama also don't have genjutsu breaking feats.Second of all, Minato displayed the same exact sensing feats as Tobirama the proven sensor:



2
2

2
		
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Everyone could sense Naruto's chakra despite not being sensors, and Kakashi could also notice the enemy.
Additionally, it seems kind of a stupid behavior not to tell to Kakashi the positioning of the enemies before sending him to battle.

The bottom line is that the reasoning is non-sequitur, since it could have been just a random coincidence that Minato and Tobirama did the same things.
Therefore, there are no necessary logical connections between Minato's actions and the conclusion; which is that he is, supposedly, a sensor.




			absence of evidence = evidence of absence

Perfect logic.How about you only come back when you actually have something to contribute?


And i can do that as well.Show me Itachi casting genjutsu on someone who's not completely stationary, show me Minato falling for genjutsu, show Minato even being implied of getting owned by genjutsu.Show me someone as fast as Minato getting caught in genjutsu without Kishi specifically going through the trouble of drawing this person being distracted by fighting multiple enemies and warring more about his comrades than his own skin.
		
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*
Asking for evidences doesn't equate to asserting that an absence of them is equal to an evidence of the absence.
So, this is a straw man.

But hey, since you are using an invalid deductive reasoning, i might as well do the same.
Minato has no feats in the genjutsu departement, so this means that he is surely genin level in them.


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## Turrin (Jul 24, 2013)

blk said:


> The point is that Minato didn't refrained from looking at his face.


You miss the point Minato had no choice, but to make eye contact because he was being sucked in by Kamui. 



> He didn't even know that Obito couldn't use genjutsu while using Kamui (and actually, we also don't know if he can).


It doesn't matter because the whole Kamui Warp and than Minato teleporting away with FTG is faster than Obito could cast Genjutsu anyway. Were talking about an exchange of two Space-Time Jutsu.



> In the other instance Minato is looking at the mask; if there wasn't a mask the eye contact would have been likely done.


I don't know how you can tell what Minato is looking at. Minato is at knee height, while Obito is standing, if anything it's Obito's waist-chest that is within his LOS, but even that we can't say for sure.



> We don't know the precise reason for why Obito didn't used genjutsu against Minato, but this information is not relevant.
> Because the fact that something didn't happened is not evidence that* the same couldn't have happened.* Even more if we are talking about a different person.


It's not evidence that it could not happen *ever*, however it is evidence that Minato is very difficult to put in Genjutsu. Why? Because Obito was try desperately to kill Minato to make his plan successful that night. If he had an opportunity to win with Genjutsu he would have gladly taken it, but he never got this opportunity during his battle with Minato. So again if someone like Obito who was trained in Genjutsu by Madara of all people couldn't catch Minato in an illusion before being defeated it's obviously much harder than your making it out to be for Genjutsu to prove effective against Minato.



> His Shunshin and his KCM form are nothing special.


What Manga have you been reading? Tobirama hyped Minato's Shunshin just a few chapters ago & KCM was shown to increase Naruto's speed to the point of being faster than Yondaime Raikage, & Naruto's Base speed is vastly inferior to Minato's Base speed.



> It's also questionable if he is going to use the KCM against a random person (since we are assuming manga knowledge or less).


Naruto used KCM against Fodder Zetsu and Fodder Edo Tensei. I see no reason not to use KCM, considering their aren't any drawbacks to it.



> The moment when Minato looks at Itachi's eyes, the latter will cast a genjutsu.


The "moment" is an exaggeration. When Minato looks at Itachi's eyes it will take Itachi a "moment" just to realize that eye contact has been made. Than it will take Itachi some-time to actually gather chakra in his eye and cast the Genjutsu. When up against someone of Minato's speed he can move out of eye contact before the Genjutsu is cast.



> And again, it's not like he knows that Itachi can cast powerful genjutsu or when he does so.


He knows Itachi is from the Uchiha Clan and if Chiyo knows the basics rules to fighting Uchiha I can't imagine Minato who was the leaf's Hokage would not. 



> The rest of what you are suggesting doesn't matter in a scenario where Minato doesn't even know the capabilities of the opposition; he's going down before even one of those things becomes a factor.


Well let's play this out. Let's say Minato takes zero precaution against Itachi despite knowing he's an Uchiha and just confidently stares into his eyes like Orochimaru. The first Genjutsu Itachi is going to use on him will be Three Tome or Finger Genjtusu as those are the two illusions he starts out with. 

Finger Genjutsu Minato can probably just Kai out of since it's not a Dojutsu technique and he has ridiculous chakra control, so at that point he'd be aware that Itachi is good at illusions and be more wary, especially since Itachi also has Sharingan.

Three Tome Genjutsu Minato can just use FTG to teleport out of Itachi's range thus breaking the illusion or he can enter KCM thus flowing kyuubi chakra into his own disturbing the flow of his chakra and breaking himself free. And at that point he'd be aware that Itachi is good at illusions and be more wary, especially since Itachi also has Sharingan. 

So yeah i'm not seeing this working.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 24, 2013)

*



			
				blk said:
			
		


			The mask might have impeded eye contact, i can accept that.
However, someone who wants to avoid eye contact at all costs (like some of you suggest) shouldn't look at someone's face (even if it doesn't immediatly equates to making eye-contact). But who knows, maybe Minato is not that smart.
		
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I believe what i always believed, and already said multiple times in this thread:

The only reason Minato won't avoid eye contact is if he has a sure counter.




			Is this a joke? Your reasoning is not logically valid.
Are you going to ignore the invalidity of it like this? If so, i'll also start to base my arguments on logical fallacies.
		
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I don't intend to listen to your BS.It's time for you to start coming up with proper counter arguments if you expect me to take you seriously.




			It was a surprise attack, not a speed blitz [1].
Moreover, Naruto reacted to Ei's max speed both mentally and physically, so i'm not sure what basis you have for your assertion that Ei has greater reflexes.
		
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How can it be a sneak attack when he can sense their evil intentions?

Minato reacted as well, the second time casually.Also Naruto has taken quite the number of hits in cqc by the jin, Obito etc He doesn't compare to Minato, who until recently hadn't suffered a legitimate hit.





			Not always, it seems [2].

I'm answering your point by saying that it might not have been a Shunshin.
		
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Fair enough.I missed on that one.

Go back and re-read my posts.The Konoha crossing shunshin was only one point:

"his shunshin was never hyped in the first place, unlike Minato's."


Or do you need me to go fetch you the panels with Obito commenting on Minato living up to his name, for saving baby Naruto with a shunshin, or  the hype he got from Tobirama and the other Hokages?Because you obviously can't be bothered to read the manga properly yourself.





			Asuma and Kurenai had more knowledge about Itachi than a manga-knowledge Minato would have.
		
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How much knowledge did they have really?They believed he solo'd his own clan and still believed they could take him on.Minato is not the idiot they were.




			Like Kakashi did with someone who he knew, Minato might think that he can take on a random opponent even without avoid eye contact.
		
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Kakashi had the sharingan advantage.




			Like it could be for any number of reasons that people didn't avoided eye contact with the two more famed Uchiha of the story, Minato might not avoid eye contact against a random enemy for any number of reasons.
		
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Yes, because a situation where you have so many people ready to run to your aid, is totally comparable to a 1 on 1.




			The bottom line is that the reasoning is non-sequitur, since it could have been just a random coincidence that Minato and Tobirama did the same things.
		
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Yeah, a random coincidence... in Kishi's manga.Please.




			Asking for evidences doesn't equate to asserting that an absence of them is equal to an evidence of the absence.
So, this is a straw man.


But hey, since you are using an invalid deductive reasoning, i might as well do the same.
		
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Now that we've established you have no argument whatsoever, as i already said:

 "How about you only come back when you actually have something to contribute?"





			Minato has no feats in the genjutsu departement, so this means that he is surely genin level in them.
		
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Neither does Tobirama, and Hashirama has only that 1 darkness genjutsu that has been long since forgotten about.*


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 24, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Other than the manga going out of way to say he was part of the 'Four Strongest Soldiers'? Other than the manga constantly going on how strong he was, on that ONLY NARUTO could surpass him (Itachi no where mentioned to be on Minato's level)?
> 
> Oh, you bring up Naruto's attempt _300 chapters ago_ to show Jiraiya's method is ineffective against Itachi's genjutsu? When he was weaker, had sucky chakra control, was less intelligent and everything?
> 
> Kakashi Hatake, show evidence that puts *FUCKING ITACHI* on Minato's level, not the fucking other way around.



This is the battledome where we go strictly by feats. So bringing out prophecies and Jiraiya bias praise is not going to help your argument for Minato. Besides its been proven time and time again that Jiraiya clearly had high expectation of Minato and also that Kakashi hold Minato to high regard being his student. They are really proud of Minato and his achievements. 

What we do know is that chakra control and Kai is not a good method to break out of SHARINGAN genjutsu. Maybe for regular genjutsu, Kai and excellent chakra control will be effective. Manga has proven that even if Naruto did have excellent chakra control, he still wouldn't have been able to break out of Itachi's genjutsu with Jiraiya's method. 

Itachi will always be on or above a certain character who isn't god or has the power of one until they show some resistance to his genjutsu. Then it becomes debatable where they can beat Itachi or not. Right now there can be no argument for Minato > Itachi. All reasoning are just speculations/assumption on his ability.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 24, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> This is the battledome where we go strictly by feats.



That's not a rule. It's a made up assertion that some people throw around but has no weight. No one is obligated to do that and few people actually say they do go just by feats.

It is, in fact, impossible to do since there is no such thing as "just feats". All feats have to be _interpreted_. I mean, otherwise, Lee certainly looks like he was moving a whole lot faster than six gated Gai when he was only using four gates. 

Feats, hype, and the databook are all fair game in BD. Asserting otherwise is just fabricating rules that no one can or does follow. In fact, there is not a single person who says "feats only" who adheres by that rule. If we went by feats only, we couldn't even discuss Itachi vs Minato because we don't actually know exactly how their abilities would match up because there are no feats for it.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 24, 2013)

Another reason why Minato will always lose against Itachi is because he always makes an eye contact with the opponents he fights.







Itachi sick or healthy, he will always win against an opponent who hasn't got Gai's method or adequate genjutsu defense.


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## Rocky (Jul 24, 2013)

You're probably fucking around, but still...



He was looking at the Kunai.


He was looking at the fist.


He has just cut Obito in half.


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## Jagger (Jul 24, 2013)

Well, I've always found feats>Hype. Because, as you can see with Hiruzen example, hype not always is what people believe it is.


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## Senkou (Jul 24, 2013)

Minato wins because he is OP'd. Even more so than Naruto who has mcs.

Itachi has never been shown to fight at full strength or with killing intent. It is only implied one time that he fought with killing intent and he offed his whole clan.

Even then, Minato is OP'd to the levels of Goku. He sets up thunder god tags on everything, everywhere he goes like hanzel and gretel bread crumbs. Never gets exhausted using the teleportation and can apparently cut through anything with his trident kunai.

No doubt Kishi would have Minato slice through Susanoo shield or summat. So Minato it is even with Itachi's bad assery. Nothing beats the god-mod.


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## blk (Jul 24, 2013)

Turrin said:


> You miss the point Minato had no choice, but to make eye contact because he was being sucked in by Kamui.
> 
> I don't know how you can tell what Minato is looking at.



I'm referring to the moments prior to the usage of Kamui [1] (note that Obito had the time to say an entire sentece).

It seems to me that Minato was looking at least at the mask, but i understand that it might not seem so to everyone.



> It's not evidence that it could not happen ever, however it is evidence that Minato is very difficult to put in Genjutsu. Why? Because Obito was try desperately to kill Minato to make his plan successful that night.



Obito didn't do a lot of things in this manga (like taking Naruto the morning after his attack at the leaf, or kill Minato while he was sleeping, or trap all the Jinchuuriki while they were sleeping or were in a moment of weakness, etc..), but that, again, isn't evidence that he couldn't (with rather ease, i might add) or that he could with but only with a lot of difficulty.



> What Manga have you been reading? Tobirama hyped Minato's Shunshin just a few chapters ago & KCM was shown to increase Naruto's speed to the point of being faster than Yondaime Raikage, & Naruto's Base speed is vastly inferior to Minato's Base speed.
> 
> Naruto used KCM against Fodder Zetsu and Fodder Edo Tensei.



I don't recall anything that Minato did so far that he couldn't with his base form. KCM didn't seemed to augment him a lot (reason might be that the Kyuubi chakra that he possess isn't as strong or as much as the one that Naruto has).

Naruto knew that he was to fight a war, so his mindset wasn't the same as the one of someone who encounter an unknown enemy in a random place.



> The "moment" is an exaggeration. When Minato looks at Itachi's eyes it will take Itachi a "moment" just to realize that eye contact has been made. Than it will take Itachi some-time to actually gather chakra in his eye and cast the Genjutsu.
> He knows Itachi is from the Uchiha Clan and if Chiyo knows the basics rules to fighting Uchiha I can't imagine Minato who was the leaf's Hokage would not.



Minato doesn't know when Itachi will cast a genjutsu, nor he knows if he can cast them at all. He will look into Itachi's eyes, realize that the former has the Sharingan, and get trapped.

Chiyo had to fight Uchihas, while Minato supposedly never did before his battle with Obito (since they were allied with Konoha).
Moreover, as i wrote to Deshi Basara:


*Spoiler*: __ 





> Asuma, Kurenai and Kakashi knew that Itachi was an Uchiha prodigy, yet they didn't avoided eye contact if not when the latter used the MS (Kakashi didn't avoided it even in that case). They had more knowledge on Itachi than a manga-knowledge Minato would have.
> Same goes for Orochimaru, who is also more skilled than Minato in genjutsu.
> 
> Against Obito and Madara, i don't remember even one person trying to avoid eye-contact (despite their fame).
> ...






And now that i think about it, even Deidara was caught pretty easily by Itachi's genjutsu.



> Let's say Minato takes zero precaution against Itachi despite knowing he's an Uchiha and just confidently stares into his eyes like Orochimaru.
> 
> Finger Genjutsu Minato can probably just Kai out of since it's not a Dojutsu technique and he has ridiculous chakra control, so at that point he'd be aware that Itachi is good at illusions and be more wary, especially since Itachi also has Sharingan.
> 
> Three Tome Genjutsu Minato can just use FTG to teleport out of Itachi's range thus breaking the illusion or he can enter KCM thus flowing kyuubi chakra into his own disturbing the flow of his chakra and breaking himself free. And at that point he'd be aware that Itachi is good at illusions and be more wary, especially since Itachi also has Sharingan.



Minato won't know that his opponent is an Uchiha if not by looking at his eyes.

Being able to break a genjutsu with Kai is not enough because:

1) One has to realize that he is in a genjutsu;

2) After realizing it, the genjutsu must be broken before the opponent kills the stunned victim;

3) If the victim has realized to be in a genjutsu and broke it before being killed, he must have done so before that the enemy's attack is too near/too difficult to prevent.

How can Minato use FTG if his brain is affected by a genjutsu? Even if he can (very unlikely) he still needs to realize to be in a genjutsu before that Itachi kills him (this too is unlikely).



Deshi Basara said:


> *
> I believe what i always believed, and already said multiple times in this thread:
> 
> The only reason Minato won't avoid eye contact is if he has a sure counter.*


*

That's fine, but i'm asking whether your belief is based on something concrete or not.
If it's just because you like Minato, that's cool, but then i will have no more reasons to debate you in matters about Minato.




			I don't intend to listen to your BS.It's time for you to start coming up with proper counter arguments if you expect me to take you seriously.
		
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Let's see this "bs", shall we? 
A deductive reasoning is like a mathematical operation, it must be necessarily true.

If it's possible to conceive logically possible alternatives to its conclusion, it isn't necessarily true.
For a conclusion to be necessarily true, it must not have any logically acceptable alternative.
2+2=4; that's necessarily true, any other response will be invalid, therefore it is a valid (and sound) "argument".

In the case of your reasoning, it is possible to conceive logically valid alternatives to the conclusion (like, as i already wrote, that Ei didn't remembered Obito's S/T jutsu in that moment, or any other plausible or implausible alternative that one might think). So, by its very definition, it can't be a valid conclusion (it is like saying that 2+2 isn't necessarily equal to 4, something that would make the operation of 2+2=4 invalid).

If you'll ignore the clear fallacy in your argument once again, i'll stop replying (since it would be clear that you don't want to have an intellectually honest debate).




			How can it be a sneak attack when he can sense their evil intentions?

Minato reacted as well, the second time casually.
		
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Well, Naruto was occupied by Roshi, so it's natural that he had troubles at reacting to Han.

The difference is that Minato didn't react "physically" (or rather, via Shunshin) to Ei.





			Or do you need me to go fetch you the panels with Obito commenting on Minato living up to his name, for saving baby Naruto with a shunshin, or  the hype he got from Tobirama and the other Hokages?Because you obviously can't be bothered to read the manga properly yourself.
		
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Few things that should be noted:

1) Obito most likely knew that Minato would have been able to save Naruto, as it was his plan to separate him from Kushina [1];

2) Minato and Obito moved at the same pace during their battle [2];

3) Kakashi was shown to be a bit more fast and agile than Obito during their last fight [3 ; 4 ; 5 ; 6].

Now, it's true that Minato was hyped by Tobirama, but that's unquantifiable. We can hardly conclude anything of substance with that information.
Therefore, i don't believe that Minato without Hirashin is a lot faster than guys like Kakashi, Itachi, etc.., since there are no compelling evidences for a similar notion.

And i also believe that the above view doesn't go against the author intent; why? Because Itachi, Kakashi, and other people like them, are already almost at the same tier of the speedster of the manga.
If the first tier in speed is occupied by:

- Minato and Tobirama with Hirashin;
- Juubito;
- Naruto;
- Ei.

In the second we already found: 

- Minato;
- Tobirama;
- Itachi;
- Kakashi;
- Etc.

The fact that Minato without Hirashin is "only" one of the fastest of the "second speed tier", wouldn't diminish (or go against) his hype!

Therefore, to conclude, i can accept the notion that Minato without Hirashin is faster than Obito, Kakashi, Itachi, etc..., but not the assertion that he is significantly faster than them. Since such suggestion, not only is not backed up by sufficent evidences, but is also contradicted by them.




			How much knowledge did they have really?

Kakashi had the sharingan advantage.

Yes, because a situation where you have so many people ready to run to your aid, is totally comparable to a 1 on 1.

Yeah, a random coincidence... in Kishi's manga.Please.
		
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They for sure had more knowledge than Minato, who with a manga one doesn't even know who Itachi is.

And? Still he didn't refrained to look into Itachi's eyes. The fact that he had a Sharingan was just his reason, like Minato will have his reason/s (like lack of knowledge on the enemy) for not avoid eye (and finger ) contact with an unknown enemy.

Against Itachi there is also Deidara who made eye-contact without esitation.

Actually Madara was able to utilize genjutsu pretty easily even when he was going CQC against an entire division.
An example with Obito is when he fought Fuu and Torune.

The last is an argument from incredulity (i.e logical fallacy).




			Now that we've established you have no argument..

Neither does Tobirama, and Hashirama has only that 1 darkness genjutsu that has been long since forgotten about.
		
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*
I have an argument by the very definition of what an "argument" is.
So, i'll ask again to show to me evidences for your case.

In an analysis of which character should beat another in a non-canon enviroment, we ought to use the feats that we possess, we can't just assume that Minato can counter genjutsu (without having knowledge of them) without having evidences for such suggestion. Does the lack of evidences _prove_ that Minato can't counter genjutsu? Of course not, but without them we surely have no reasons to _believe_ that Minato can counter them (please note the two italics before making a straw man by claiming that i implied that absence of evidence = evidence of absence).

Not sure what Tobirama and Hashirama have to do with the discussion.


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## ueharakk (Jul 24, 2013)

speed of lightning =/= speed of light.

The only times itachi has ever landed a genjutsu on someone is when they have zero knowledge of that genjutsu, the sharingan in general, or aren't even trying to avoid eye contact.

Zero knowledge:
- Kakashi (Tsukuyomi)
- Orochimaru (looks right into itachi's eyes)
- Deidara (what's a sharingan?)
- Naruto (finger genjutsu)
- Naruto's clone (shisui's sharingan in the crow)
- Bee (doesn't care, he's a perfect jink and broke out of sasuke's MS genjutsu easily)

When a top tier opponent actually has knowledge on the sharingan and is trying to avoid eye-contact, we see that the sharingan user has to use 5 susanoos and a distraction in order to catch people like Ei in it, or guys like Tobi are unable to get Minato into one altogether.

So in short, genjutsu is almost a non-factor in this fight since Minato is still the fastest character in the manga.

In addition to this, I don't think itachi has much of a chance against Minato, at least not a living itachi due to itachi needing susanoo to not get FTG blitzed.  That's something that he cant keep up for long if he's nonedo, coupled with minato having the ability to port things like a mountain-sized juubidama without even entering KCM I see Itachi getting his susanoo warped and then himself blitzed, or killing himself via MS spam which he needs to stay alive.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 24, 2013)

*


			
				blk said:
			
		


			That's fine, but i'm asking whether your belief is based on something concrete or not.
If it's just because you like Minato, that's cool, but then i will have no more reasons to debate you in matters about Minato.
		
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I would like for you to explain to me why Minato won't avoid eye contact if he doesn't have a counter?




			Let's see this "bs", shall we?
		
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I didn't even bother to read this stuff, as i already told you, im not listening to your BS.A for effort, though.




			Well, Naruto was occupied by Roshi, so it's natural that he had troubles at reacting to Han.

The difference is that Minato didn't react "physically" (or rather, via Shunshin) to Ei.
		
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Minato reacted with no warning whatsoever.Naruto not only has his KCM sensing, but Ei fucking screamed at him and told him he was coming.




			1) Obito most likely knew that Minato would have been able to save Naruto, as it was his plan to separate him from Kushina [1];

2) Minato and Obito moved at the same pace during their battle [2];

3) Kakashi was shown to be a bit more fast and agile than Obito during their last fight [3 ; 4 ; 5 ; 6].
		
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1.How does that contradict Minato's shunshin hype?

2.You were already told by another user, that Minato was matching Obito so he can trick him and counter Kamui.

3.I already told you that the author just didn't give a crap about consistency.




			Now, it's true that Minato was hyped by Tobirama, but that's unquantifiable. We can hardly conclude anything of substance with that information.
		
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Kakashi was never, EVER hyped for his shunshin, simply because he ain't anywhere near Minato's shunshin tier.PERIOD.

The rest of what you posted is completely irrelevant, since we've already established that Minato is faster than Ei with just shunshin.




			They for sure had more knowledge than Minato, who with a manga one doesn't even know who Itachi is.
		
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They were idiots and Minato is a genius so it's irrelevant.




			And? Still he didn't refrained to look into Itachi's eyes. The fact that he had a Sharingan was just his reason, like Minato will have his reason/s (like lack of knowledge on the enemy) for not avoid eye (and finger ) contact with an unknown enemy.
		
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Yes, Minato will have other reasons, like being too fast for that crap.





			Against Itachi there is also Deidara who made eye-contact without esitation.
		
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Keep bringing those idiots, comparing them with Minato and expect me to take you seriously.




			Actually Madara was able to utilize genjutsu pretty easily even when he was going CQC against an entire division.
An example with Obito is when he fought Fuu and Torune.
		
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Why are you bringing fodder into this?I specifically said Kage level shinobi.





			In an analysis of which character should beat another in a non-canon enviroment, we ought to use the feats that we possess,
		
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Read what Subtle said:





			
				SubtleObscurantist said:
			
		




			
				Kakashi Hatake said:
			
		


			This is the battledome where we go strictly by feats.
		
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That's not a rule. It's a made up assertion that some people throw around but has no weight. No one is obligated to do that and few people actually say they do go just by feats.

It is, in fact, impossible to do since there is no such thing as "just feats". All feats have to be interpreted. I mean, otherwise, Lee certainly looks like he was moving a whole lot faster than six gated Gai when he was only using four gates.

Feats, hype, and the databook are all fair game in BD. Asserting otherwise is just fabricating rules that no one can or does follow. In fact, there is not a single person who says "feats only" who adheres by that rule. If we went by feats only, we couldn't even discuss Itachi vs Minato because we don't actually know exactly how their abilities would match up because there are no feats for it.
		
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As for reasons to believe that Minato can counter genjutsu, as i already said:

 him being a sensor, him being too fast for Itachi's shit etc

"Absolutely nothing stops Minato the sensor, from instantly escaping via Hirashin.


Oro was about to break free with Kai from Itachi's genjutsu.

Itachi had no problem executing tsukuyomi on Sasuke(and Tsukuyomi is not some simple and easy genjutsu) when he was caught in Sage Kabuto's illusion, which is most likely more powerful than most of Itachi's genjutsu with the exception of Tsukuyomi. "




			Not sure what Tobirama and Hashirama have to do with the discussion.
		
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Either actually read my posts, or don't respond in the first place:




First of all, Tobirama and Hashirama also don't have genjutsu breaking feats.Second of all, Minato displayed the same exact sensing feats as Tobirama the proven sensor:



"Minato has no feats in the genjutsu departement, so this means that he is surely genin level in them."

Neither does Tobirama, and Hashirama has only that 1 darkness genjutsu that has been long since forgotten about.


People seriously need to wake up.If genjutsu worked the way you hope it did, Madara would not have gotten pwned by Hashirama on a regular basis, and Izuna should've been > Tobirama instead of the opposite.




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And  next time you say that Tobirama and Hashirama don't have anything to do with this and continue with "Minato doesn't have any genjutsu feats"  BS, i'll count it as an automatic concession.


*


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## Ashi (Jul 24, 2013)

im wondering could minato warp susanoo away?


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 24, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> im wondering could minato warp susanoo away?



*I believe he can.Gaara managed to separate Madara from his Susano, so...


And Minato managed to wrap himself and Kurama away to two different locations, without touching Kurama, while it was squashed by Gamabunta, and he didn't have to move the frog away from it's original position to accomplish that:

Link removed
Link removed*


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 24, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Hashirama did defeat Madara with a clone feint. Therefore, who's to say Itachi can't do the same?​



Hashirama is also a far more capable shinobi than Itachi who was able to force Madara to fight without his Sharingan. The only Sharingan thus far that could distinguish between clones and originals. 

Plus Itachi's feints aren't likely to work on a sensor who can just warp out of there.



TensaXZangetsu said:


> im wondering could minato warp susanoo away?



If it is touching him or his chakra in someway, he can.


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## Akitō (Jul 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You're probably fucking around, but still...



No, he isn't. He and other hardcore Itachi fans love using this kind of argument. It used to be tossed around a ton in Itachi vs. Jiraiya threads. It's ridiculous, but according to them, if a character looks someone in the eye once, it's in-character for them to look people in the eye. And that'll allow Itachi to 'lol genjutsu' them instantaneously.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 24, 2013)

If you look into Itachi's eyes you will get caught in his genjutsu. Anyone who has been reading this manga ever since Itachi vs Kurenai/Gai/Kakashi will know this and accept it. Not pretend these panels does not exist where it was stated that looking into Itachi's eye is game over. Which is why Asuma and Kurenai were forced to shut their eyes. Which is why Kabuto had to set up his battle where it was near impossible for Itachi to catch him in genjutsu. Kishi time and time shown that Itachi genjutsu is not to be taken lightly. 

I know your still mad Akito, Jiraiya is not breaking Itachi's genjutsu once caught. This is not debatable anymore, we passed that.


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## Akitō (Jul 24, 2013)

Okay. Not sure how that translates into Minato looking into Itachi's eyes when Itachi's ready to use genjutsu. You and the other hardcore fans have this weird idea that Itachi has an automatic genjutsu function that allows him to instantly use genjutsu whenever his enemy is looking into his eyes. Most people fortunately understand that it doesn't work like that, however.


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## Rocky (Jul 24, 2013)

Asuma and Kurenai do not move as fast as Minato. They also do not possess mastery over teleportation.


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## Turrin (Jul 24, 2013)

blk said:


> I'm referring to the moments prior to the usage of Kamui [1]


Well let's take a look at these images:

​
The Red line represents Minato's LOS and the blue line represents Obito's LOS. Now look at this first image it seems like Minato's LOS is directed at the top of Obito's hood not his Sharingan or even his mask. While Obito's LOS would be somewhere between the neck - mouth area due to him crouching in that panel.

​ 
I know your link is of the page before this panel, but Minato hasn't moved since then and this panel gives us the best perspective of interaction. Anyway here you can see that Minato's LOS is somewhere around Obito's waist or crotch area (see something you like Minato ), while Obito's LOS would be over Minato's head or at most focusing on the top of his head.

So to me in nether instance does it look like eye contact is made. This is again supported by the fact that Obito did not get the opportunity to place Minato in Genjutsu.

However let's forget about all the facts presented above and pretend for a second Obito could have caught Minato in Genjutsu, in those panels. Okay, cool, but what does that really prove? I mean In-order to get Minato to expose that opening where eye contact is possible Obito had to use full power Kyuubi to distract Minato & than use ambush Minato from behind with Kamui; a Jutsu Minato had no intel on. 

If Minato exposed an opening in that situation really does nothing to dispel the notion that Minato is hard to capture in Genjutsu, considering Obito utilizing full kyuubi and Kamui ambush to create that opening is not something I would call "easy" by any means. 



> Obito didn't do a lot of things in this manga (like taking Naruto the morning after his attack at the leaf, or kill Minato while he was sleeping, or trap all the Jinchuuriki while they were sleeping or were in a moment of weakness, etc..), but that, again, isn't evidence that he couldn't (with rather ease, i might add) or that he could with but only with a lot of difficulty.


Obito probably did not know who the Jinchuuriki were as children and the Jinchuuriki were probably heavily guarded. It's really that simple as to why he didn't do that in the case of all the Jinchuuriki. So I think your jumping the gun to label this a plot-hole so quickly. 

But let me posit something else to you. Back when Sasuke fought Yondaime Raikage and didn't use Genjutsu on him, people were also saying he forgot he had it or some other such nonesense. But than when we saw Madara go up against Yondaime Raikage he also couldn't simply Genjutsu Raikage, not because he forgot he had Genjutsu, but because he had to hold Yondaime Raikage down first due to the Raikage's speed. Here we have another Uchiha pitted against another speed demon, & once again the Uchiha didn't use Genjutsu against him. Should we once again go with the BS excuse that he forgot he had it or should we instead go with Occam's razor (the simplest explanation is usually the right one), that once again we have another person whose difficult to place in Genjutsu due to his speed?

Finally even if you still want to call it PNJ (which I don't support), that really doesn't help your argument, because if Kishi is flexing his plot muscle to prevent Minato from getting captured in Genjutsu, that's the best Genjutsu defense you can have LOL, as it's in essence the god of the Narutoverse blocking you from getting Genjutsu'd. So if that's the case the slim chance of Minato getting Genjutsu'd turns into 0% chance and Itachi's chances of winning a duel with Minato drop to zero. So yeah....



> I don't recall anything that Minato did so far that he couldn't with his base form. KCM didn't seemed to augment him a lot (reason might be that the Kyuubi chakra that he possess isn't as strong or as much as the one that Naruto has).


It's stated he sealed half of the Fox's chakra & power inside of himself and sealed the other half in Naruto, so there should be no difference in power or quantity:
1

As for differences we know the differences because we've seen them through Naruto. We know that KCM increases a person's speed and reaction time dramatically. Of course it's hard to tell this with Minato because he was already top notch to begin with & the person he's fighting against is the Juubi Jinchuuriki who also has insane speed, however it doesn't change the fact that we know KCM has that effect:

Tsunade, _"no on the contrary, kyuubi chakra mode is incredible because its movements are on par with those of the raikage?!\\"_

And again that was in the case of Naruto whose base speed is vastly inferior to Minato's. Also even if we simply look at the definition of Shunshin it tells us that the quality and quantity of the chakra increases it's speed: DB I,_ "In reality, the user has* vitalized his body with chakra* and moved at super speeds."_

I mean there isn't much leeway here it's pretty much a fact that KCM increases the person's speed/reactions.



> Naruto knew that he was to fight a war, so his mindset wasn't the same as the one of someone who encounter an unknown enemy in a random place


He also knew that he was up against Fodder Zetsu in that instance and still used it. I mean personally I would think you'd be more cautious against a totally unknown level Uchiha than fodder Zetsu, but maybe that's just me.

However to me ther real problem is why not use it? There is seemingly no drawback to Minato using KCM, so what's stopping him? I mean are we assuming he's the type to toy around with the enemy due to underestimating him/her or something? I mean just let me know what your thinking here as for the reason why Minato wouldn't use a no-drawback form that can be instantly entered into. 

All i'm getting right now is that he's not going to use it for the sake of not using it, which sounds an aweful lot like; KCM is an actual decent counter to Genjutsu, therefore Minato won't use it as it hurts my argument.



> Minato doesn't know when Itachi will cast a genjutsu, nor he knows if he can cast them at all. He will look into Itachi's eyes, realize that the former has the Sharingan, and get trapped.


Or he looks into Itachi's eyes realizes the former has Sharingan and knowing the danger instantly moves out of eye contact, heck he can even use FTG to instantly move if the danger is high enough. Certainly FTG would teleport Minato out of eye contact faster than Itachi could cast Genjutsu.


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## Turrin (Jul 24, 2013)

> Chiyo had to fight Uchihas, while Minato supposedly never did before his battle with Obito (since they were allied with Konoha).


You really have no proof that Minato never sparred with an Uchiha. You really have no proof that Minato never spared with Kakashi after he got Obito's Sharingan. You really have no proof that Minato having fought alongside Uchiha wouldn't see other people using the counters Chiyo spoke of and thus know of them. You have no proof that Minato didn't think up counters to Uchiha clan techs considering he was well aware of how unstable the Uchiha are. etc.....

There are tons of different ways that Minato would have Chiyo level of knowledge on how to fight Sharingan and it seems pretty silly to me to assume he did not know of such basic counters.Also Chiyo even suggest there are many tactics to fighting Sharingan Dojutsu, so that makes it even less likely Minato isn't aware of one:
1



> Asuma, Kurenai and Kakashi knew that Itachi was an Uchiha prodigy, yet they didn't avoided eye contact if not when the latter used the MS (Kakashi didn't avoided it even in that case).


Yeah they didn't avoid eye contact because there were two of them and could break each other out of Genjutsu. Not to mention Asuma and Kurunai were ignorant of there being higher stages of the Sharingan than Three Tome, which made the Sharingan Dojutsu much more fearsome. Minato is not ignorant of this fact as he was well aware of Madara and showed no shock or surprise when Sasuke revealed his Eternal Mangekyo, which is even rarer than Mangekyo. Plus i'm not sure anyone could really argue with a straight face that Asuma & Kurunai are as smart, tactical, or have the same keen senses as Minato. Them underestimating someone is therefore much more believable to me than Minato doing the same.

As for Kakashi he had Sharingan and also did not know about MS. 

When it comes to Orochimaru I don't think he studied Sharingan that extensive before fighting Itachi in the flashback, considering the DB states that he only lusted after an Uchiha-body to the extent we see him doing so in Part I & Part II after Itachi defeated him; DB III, _"Ever since the one day he suffered complete defeat against Itachi's powerful eyes, the body from one of the Uchiha clan became, to Orochimaru, the container of his dreams. "_. Even then the DB also states that, "Even with his praiseworthy genius, Bloodline Limits had *a power Orochimaru failed to comprehend*." So I don't think Orochimaru is the best judge ether.

Deidara as a young man in Iwagakuru didn't even seem to know about Sharingan's powers, but once he got that knowledge he was much more careful, so if anything Deidara works as a counter example to your point.

Also I'm not sure where Minato's knowledge cut off is, but since were talking KCM Minato, than he should have post-death knowledge which means he had Itachi's back story explained to him and even has knowledge of Itachi directly from the time he spent watching Naruto from within Naruto's seal. 



> Minato won't know that his opponent is an Uchiha if not by looking at his eyes.


Minato knows who Itachi is. Itachi was born well before Minato died:
1

Itachi's mom was even friends with Kushina, so that gives him another reason to know who he is. Heck Itachi was most likely in the Ninja academy before Minato died, which also gives him another reason to know him. Of course he doesn't know how strong he is, but he does know at least that he's an Uchiha. Plus we already established Minato can look in Itachi's eyes as long as it's done very quickly.

And again if he has current knowledge than he knows all about him from Sasuke/Hiruzen/etc... explanation.



> Being able to break a genjutsu with Kai is not enough because:
> 
> 1) One has to realize that he is in a genjutsu;
> 
> ...


And I'm pretty sure someone with Minato's speed and intellect can do this. I mean even Naruto quickly figured out he was in Itachi's Genjutsu, I can't imagine Minato wouldn't figure it out many times quicker than Naruto, and even if Itachi has an attack right in his face by than FTG would still save his ass.



> How can Minato use FTG if his brain is affected by a genjutsu? Even if he can (very unlikely) he still needs to realize to be in a genjutsu before that Itachi kills him (this too is unlikely).


Who ever said you can't use techniques while inside Genjutsu? Where are you getting that from?


Sasuke used Genjutsu while inside Itachi's Genjutsu & Itachi did the same
Shikkamaru used Shadow Bind while inside Tayuya's Genjutsu
Sasuke & Itachi used Genjutsu Techs while inside Kabuto's Senjutsu enahnced Genjutsu
Kai is a Ninjutsu, which people use all the time while captured in Genjutsu
Sasuke used Chidori Eisou while caught in Itachi's Crow Clone Genjutsu
Tons of people used techniques while trapped in Mizukage's Clam's Genjutsu
Orochimaru continued to use Fuushi Tensei while ensnared by Sasuke's Genjutsu
Naruto used Techniques while caught in the Oboro Bros Genjutsu
Itachi technically was in Koto the entire time he was in the war, yet still used techniques
Danzo still used Techniques while caught in Sasuke's Genjutsu
Sasuke indicated could still use Techniques while caught in C's Genjutsu
Itachi could use Techniques while caught in Kurnai's Genjutsu
etc..

It totally depends on the type of Genjutsu.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 24, 2013)

Akitō said:


> Okay. Not sure how that translates into Minato looking into Itachi's eyes when Itachi's ready to use genjutsu. You and the other hardcore fans have this weird idea that Itachi has an automatic genjutsu function that allows him to instantly use genjutsu whenever his enemy is looking into his eyes. Most people fortunately understand that it doesn't work like that, however.



Where did I say instant, ever. This is something new you came up with didn't you.  

Last time we had an argument, I showed you Jiraiya and Itachi having a staring contest. Itachi who could have used genjutsu at the moment, decided not to so he doesn't jeopardize his mission.

Itachi can snipe in a genjutsu anytime he likes, even in mid battle which is why Sage Kabuto had to set up his surroundings in a way that makes him feel invincible, he even thought it was impossible for Itachi to defeat him because of the genjutsu defense he set up. Kishi basically showed us how dangerous fighting Itachi without adequate genjutsu defense. 

Speed is not a genjutsu defense, manga has never implied it. The method to fight genjutsu users are knowing Kai, excellent chakra control, being perfect Jin and partner method. Also Sharingan, Gai's and Kabuto's method.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 24, 2013)

Itachi doesn't automatically use Genjutsu. Otherwise he'd have cast it on Naruto, and Bee at the very start of their battle. Or against Kakashi during their first encounter. That defeats the "instant" notion.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Where did I say instant, ever. This is something new you came up with didn't you.



The very backbone of your arguments are that one glace at Itachi's eyes = caught in Genjutsu. Without Itachi having to choose to activate the illusion. 

If we took your approach and applied a similar logic to Minato, we can say Itachi gets instantly stomped when he walks close to a marked location.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 24, 2013)

"If you look at Itachi's eyes your dead"

Ok, if you blink Minato BAMFlashes


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 24, 2013)

No, I have always said that Itachi is a different type of fighter than the other Uchiha's. He is a genjutsu user and unlike Madara/Sasuke/Kakashi, he will use it when an opportunity presents itself. Sage Kabuto had to block his eye sight to fight Itachi because he knows how dangerous it is fighting Itachi without setting up an adequate genjutsu defense. Kabuto even thought it was impossible for Itachi to defeat him because of the set up he created. This is in a way for Kishi to show us that it is dangerous for anyone to fight Itachi without a genjutsu defense.

Itachi who is a genjutsu type of fighter, will use his genjutsu when someone stares at him. The speed he catches people in genjutsu is debatable, but I would rate him as the character that can catch someone in genjutsu faster than anyone in the manga.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 24, 2013)

You can't genjutsu what you can't see


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 24, 2013)

I never knew Minato can turn invisible


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## Turrin (Jul 24, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> No, I have always said that Itachi is a different type of fighter than the other Uchiha's. He is a genjutsu user and unlike Madara/Sasuke/Kakashi, he will use it when an opportunity presents itself. \


No he's not, all Uchiha are like that, which is why there is a general rules and tactics for fighting Sharingan Users pertaining to Genjutsu:
prior

Itachi is more skilled at casting illusions than most, but that's the difference, not the fact that he is different type of fighter.


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## Rocky (Jul 24, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Sage Kabuto had to block his eye sight to fight Itachi because he knows how dangerous it is fighting Itachi without setting up an adequate genjutsu defense.



You're not understanding this. 

Kabuto cannot move like Minato. Kabuto isn't a master of teleportation. They don't fight alike.

Kabuto taking measures to counter Genjutsu is good for him, but Minato is not required to take the same measures, because he can do things Kabuto cannot.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 24, 2013)

Not to mention Kabuto was fighting two MS genjutsu users, so taking those precautions was necessary. And if Itachi can get blitz'd by a slow ass Kabuto, Minato will have this fight finished well before five seconds end


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## The Prodigy (Jul 24, 2013)

Turrin said:


> No he's not, all Uchiha are like that, which is why there is a general rules and tactics for fighting Sharingan Users pertaining to Genjutsu:
> prior
> 
> Itachi is more skilled at casting illusions than most, but that's the difference, not the fact that he is different type of fighter.



Itachi is a different type of fighter though compared to other Uchiha. And he is more skilled at casting genjutsu. Uchiha naturally have big chakra pools, or at least strong ones, Itachi uses top tier chakra control to constantly catch his opponents off guard with genjutsu, even in the smallest of ways.


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## Senkou (Jul 24, 2013)

For the most part, Kakashi is right. Itachi is a different style of fighter than the other Uchiholes.

Every Uchihole has the potential to be fairly well rounded. However majority, if not 99.9%, of Uchiholes a predominant ninjutsu users. Supplementing with decent taijutsu and then dabbling in a little genjutsu.

Sasuke spams ninjutsu. Never really 'uses' genjutsu to attack, more-so a counter to opponents using genjutsu on himself. Even after achieving EMS, he spams amaterasu and susanoo. Never relying on tsukuyomi which fucks over anyone who gets caught.
Madara, since he's been shown, never uses genjutsu. Just spams class S ninjutsu.
Obito, also doesn't use genjutsu. His whole moon eye plan but never show genjutsu ability. He prefers to kamui people and also use a variety of ninjutsu.
Even Shisui, it's implied he is a bit of a gen/nin hybrid but body flicker is a ninjutsu.
Kakashi, predominant ninjutsu. Focuses on the copying of jutsu rather than genjutsu.  Then supplements with taijutsu and rounds out with dabbling in genjutsu.

Itachi is really the only predominant Genjutsu user of the Sharingan users. Which is fitting as instead of attempting to obtain a "stronger" sharingan, he focused on mastering it's duration. Hence his never deactivated sharingan. Then supplements with powerful ninjutsu and dabbles with Taijutsu. Which could explain not ever using kamui, which is a ninjutsu based technique, and never really engaging in hand2hand combat.

As for this idea that Itachi can't use genjutsu because Minato is too fast. All it takes is a simple glance. It isn't a genjutsu by hand seals. Immediately through the brain registering sight, the genjutsu is active. As fast as it takes for your brain to register seeing scarlet irises. Your ass is haxed. He is so versed in genjutsu to where, if he shifts a damn finger and your brain registers the sight of his finger.. your ass is haxed.

Does this mean Minato will get caught? No but we could also say he has never fought an opponent like Itachi. Which could very well mean, he could be captured in a genjutsu.

I still think Minato would win because he's OP'd but the logic of being too fast so a genjutsu that works by SIGHT would be nullified? Minato would have to fight without seeing his target. It's not about what Itachi sees, it's about what the opponent's brain registers from their own sight. It could be a kunai, if Itachi channeled genjutsu into it, you're haxed if you see it.

Here's another fun bit. *what's keeping Itachi from copying the FTG jutsu?*.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Senkou said:


> Here's another fun bit. *what's keeping Itachi from copying the FTG jutsu?*.



The same thing stopping Sasuke from copying Kage Bunshin.

In all honesty, Itachi could probably do so, but he'd have no experience with the technique. It'd be like the Hokage guards' version.


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## Turrin (Jul 25, 2013)

The Prodigy said:


> Itachi is a different type of fighter though compared to other Uchiha. And he is more skilled at casting genjutsu. Uchiha naturally have big chakra pools, or at least strong ones, Itachi uses top tier chakra control to constantly catch his opponents off guard with genjutsu, even in the smallest of ways.


How is he a different type of fighter? From Chiyo's words it's clear that all decently skilled Uchiha utilized Genjutsu when the opportunity presented itself to catch their opponents off guard. Just because Itachi is better at it than most other Uchiha, doesn't make his fighting style any different.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 25, 2013)

Turrin said:


> How is he a different type of fighter? From Chiyo's words it's clear that all decently skilled Uchiha utilized Genjutsu when the opportunity presented itself to catch their opponents off guard. Just because Itachi is better at it than most other Uchiha, doesn't make his fighting style any different.



Catching perfect jinchuriki in genjutsu for example. Genjutsu from the moment you look into his eyes or even a finger. Itachi uses clone feints to set up a genjutsu, layers genjutsu, ninjutsu to set up genjutsu, etc. 

Sasuke is dominant in ninjutsu and lol chiyo's method for fighting Uchiha wouldn't work on Itachi, even if he didn't use MS. A moments genjutsu is all it takes.


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## Senkou (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The same thing stopping Sasuke from copying Kage Bunshin.
> 
> In all honesty, Itachi could probably do so, but he'd have no experience with the technique. It'd be like the Hokage guards' version.



Lol, I actually don't know why he hasn't copied Kage Bunshin but c'mon it's fair to say Itachi is on another tier compared to Sasuke. Sick and dying and he still beat Sasuke. 

I agree with that though. He'd lack experience with the technique that's for sure.

I also wonder if Itachi's MS can track Minato's movements like seen from Sasuke when fighting Naruto. Seeing all the moves before they happen, or perhaps even seeing which tag Minato would be emerging from. Either by seeing the chakra activate the tag or see Minato's pre-movement showing which tag he's gonna come from.

Now that would be a trump card to Minato's trump card.


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## Bonly (Jul 25, 2013)

Lol silly OP this is how the fight goes.

Itachi and Minato runs into each other.

Itachi knows of the flee on sight order when it comes to Minato.

Minato knows that one needs to run away from an Uchiha in a 1V1 fight.

Both of them run away.

GG.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Senkou said:


> Seeing all the moves before they happen, or perhaps even seeing which tag Minato would be emerging from.



The Sharingan doesn't work like that. Even advanced enough Kenjutsu can overwhelm it. It will not predict the spots Minato teleports to (not that Itachi is physically fast enough to do anything).


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## Turrin (Jul 25, 2013)

The Prodigy said:


> Catching perfect jinchuriki in genjutsu for example. Genjutsu from the moment you look into his eyes or even a finger. Itachi uses clone feints to set up a genjutsu, layers genjutsu, ninjutsu to set up genjutsu, etc.
> 
> Sasuke is dominant in ninjutsu and lol chiyo's method for fighting Uchiha wouldn't work on Itachi, even if he didn't use MS. A moments genjutsu is all it takes.


This has nothing to do with fighting style you are just wanking on how Itachi is better at Genjutsu than most other Uchiha.


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## Vice (Jul 25, 2013)

Yeah, the Sharingan can see every move before they happen all it wants, if the body can't react fast enough to take advantage of it then it's pretty much meaningless.

Rock Lee taught us this.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 25, 2013)

The complete Sharingan doesn't have precognition (properly speaking), in any case. It projects an image of where the opponent's body will be in the eye that is calculated instantly in the brain based upon physical cues based upon the body's current state. It can only read physical movements, which Hiraishin is not. And Obito has thus far proved incapable of reading where Minato is about to jump or even that he is about to jump. Which indicates both that the seals do not give a chakra signature indicating what will happen, and that the chakra fluctuation within Minato prior to the use of Hirashin is too fast for the Sharingan to read. 

For this reason alone, and also because Itachi has no demonstrated mastery of Jikukan ninjutsu anywhere within the range of Hirashin, it is inconceivable that he could copy it. He might be able to copy the seal for Hirashin since he has demonstrated advanced Fuuinjutsu, but that is of no help to him.


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## Yagura (Jul 25, 2013)

> He wasn't taking em seriously... that's why he didn't use genjutsu earlier... so i guess he was taking this fodder seriously:
> 
> here
> 
> ...



...this is exactly what I meant. A shaky argument. 

And yes, he wanted to break they're will to fight. Being the sadistic megalomaniac he is, he takes pleasure in that kind of thing. However, paralyzing one with a genjutsu and proceeding to decapitate them wouldn't be accomplishing that - it'd just be killing them. Which he could of done much earlier had he wanted. Saying why he couldn't do this or that is ultimately quite inane because he was simply treating his opponents like children (figuratively), and not putting in any real effort.



> It doesn't work that way, mate.



 Sure it does! Knowing how ones body will move should definitely aid in landing eye contact. 



> That still won't help him keep up with the faster character in the manga.



Pssh. That's one of the advantages of the Sharingan, bro. 




> And which of them had as easy of a fighting style as Minato and is a sensor?



This _"easy fighting style"_ shtick your throwing around is entirely manufactured by you and is stated no where in the manga.



> Not to mention that Naruto was avoiding eye contact forcing Itachi to reasort to finger and genjutsu tricks.



Naruto wasn't even moving. 



> If he wants to avoid eye contact, and you believe that he can't by himself, why won't he use a bunshin?



Minato doesn't exactly have a great history of trying to avoid eye contact with Uchiha.  (see vs Obito)



> Wait, what?What the fuck are you talking about?Irregularities in your own chakra is what allows sensors to pick up on being a genjutsu.



Yes, and Minato has never shown that specific ability.  



> Yeah, i wasn't arguing Tsukuyomi.Minato is fast enough to avoid it anyway.



You were trying to use that instance to generalize that all Genjutsu are like that. 

And I also mentioned Utakata.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 25, 2013)

Turrin said:


> No he's not, all Uchiha are like that, which is why there is a general rules and tactics for fighting Sharingan Users pertaining to Genjutsu:
> here
> 
> Itachi is more skilled at casting illusions than most, but that's the difference, not the fact that he is different type of fighter.



No, your not understanding my post.

Itachi is a genjutsu type of fighter, you think Kabuto will take this necessary genjutsu defense if he was facing Sasuke? You think Asuma and Kurenai will close their eyes if they were facing Sasuke? If you do, then you just blindly hate Itachi. 

Anyone can see Itachi is a genjutsu type of fighter and without adequate defense, his regular sharingan genjutsu can one shot the strongest Sannin. Kishi showed us why Itachi's genjutsu is dangerous by having Kabuto take the necessary step to eliminate the threat. This is why Kabuto thought he was invincible, because he thought Itachi's genjutsu would not affect him. 



Rocky said:


> You're not understanding this.
> 
> Kabuto cannot move like Minato. Kabuto isn't a master of teleportation. They don't fight alike.
> 
> Kabuto taking measures to counter Genjutsu is good for him, but Minato is not required to take the same measures, because he can do things Kabuto cannot.



If you have manga evidence to prove your point then I don't need to understand it. No where in the manga we have a panel that says speed provides genjutsu defense.


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## eyeknockout (Jul 25, 2013)

itachi is completely different from the other uchihas, practically all of them never awakened mangekyou sharingan, itachi is much faster, smarter, his genjutsu is levels above even in base, his kunai skills are untouchable. there's is no set "uchiha rule" to fight him because he's nothing like them.

clearly anybody who has fought a suiton user can easily defeat kisame and tobirama because obviously there's some rule of fighting suiton users that hokages obviously must know because hokages are supposed to know everything  No


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> If you have manga evidence to prove your point then I don't need to understand it. No where in the manga we have a panel that says speed provides genjutsu defense.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky you have no argument.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

I have all the arguments.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

No, but really, dodging is a counter to everything.


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## eyeknockout (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> No, but really, dodging is a counter to everything.



so...are you seriously trying to say that minato would be able to shunshin and hiraishin from just itachi looking at him the entire time yet still win the fight without getting chakra exhausted? no way is minato outlasting itachi if his only defense for genjutsu is to dodge


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

You act as if Hiraishin is taxing. 

I've been through this with others. Spread tags, and use teleportation to maintain control of the battle. Stay behind Itachi, preventing him from gaining focus. 

Itachi lacks any kind of battlefield control or AoE attack. If he can't maintain focus on his target, he's as good as gone.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 25, 2013)

Your acting as if Minato uses Hirashin non-stop. As if Minato never stands still to analyze his opponents abilities.  

Rocky you have no argument.


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

He doesn't need to use Hiraishin non-stop.


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## Baroxio (Jul 25, 2013)

^I lol'd.


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## Vice (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He doesn't need to use Hiraishin non-stop.



He only needs to use it once.


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## Kisame (Jul 25, 2013)

Itachi wins with Tsukiyomi.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 25, 2013)

*


Yagura said:



			...this is exactly what I meant. A shaky argument. 

And yes, he wanted to break they're will to fight. Being the sadistic megalomaniac he is, he takes pleasure in that kind of thing. However, paralyzing one with a genjutsu and proceeding to decapitate them wouldn't be accomplishing that - it'd just be killing them. Which he could of done much earlier had he wanted. Saying why he couldn't do this or that is ultimately quite inane because he was simply treating his opponents like children (figuratively), and not putting in any real effort.
		
Click to expand...


Completely idiotic argument.Madara was using meteors, gigantic forests etc he used genjutsu against fodders for fuck's sake.


And using genjutsu, doesn't automatically mean he has to go for the decapitation.He didn't do it against Ei.





 Sure it does! Knowing how ones body will move should definitely aid in landing eye contact. 



Pssh. That's one of the advantages of the Sharingan, bro.
		
Click to expand...



My f'n god.Are you being deliberately ignorant?This BS already got destroyed by multiple people in this thread.Read their posts, read the f'n manga for god's sake!





			
				Rocky said:
			
		


			The Sharingan doesn't work like that. Even advanced enough Kenjutsu can overwhelm it. It will not predict the spots Minato teleports to (not that Itachi is physically fast enough to do anything).
		
Click to expand...





			
				Vice said:
			
		


			Yeah, the Sharingan can see every move before they happen all it wants, if the body can't react fast enough to take advantage of it then it's pretty much meaningless.

Rock Lee taught us this.
		
Click to expand...





			
				SubtleObscurantist said:
			
		


			The complete Sharingan doesn't have precognition (properly speaking), in any case. It projects an image of where the opponent's body will be in the eye that is calculated instantly in the brain based upon physical cues based upon the body's current state. It can only read physical movements, which Hiraishin is not. And Obito has thus far proved incapable of reading where Minato is about to jump or even that he is about to jump. Which indicates both that the seals do not give a chakra signature indicating what will happen, and that the chakra fluctuation within Minato prior to the use of Hirashin is too fast for the Sharingan to read.
		
Click to expand...





			This "easy fighting style" shtick your throwing around is entirely manufactured by you and is stated no where in the manga.
		
Click to expand...


Kishi doesn't have time to spoon fed you.




			Naruto wasn't even moving. 

Click to expand...



How is this relevant to your preposterous argument in any way, shape or form?According to you the sharingan  is suppose to predict that shit and make eye contact whatever you wanted to or not?





			Minato doesn't exactly have a great history of trying to avoid eye contact with Uchiha.  (see vs Obito)
		
Click to expand...


Again, read the thread.This has been adressed by billion people already.




			Yes, and Minato has never shown that specific ability.
		
Click to expand...


Yes, because he's never been put in such a situation.Stop using straw man arguments.





			You were trying to use that instance to generalize that all Genjutsu are like that. 

Click to expand...


Your reading comprehension is shit.




			And I also mentioned Utakata. 

Click to expand...


Yeah, Utakata is that guy:




and?


After a bit of digging, i found out that you were actually talking about Itachi's finger shenanigans.You are still wrong.Naruto was trying to break out with Kai before Itachi stopped him.We saw him in the genjutsu, but that doesn't mean he wasn't executing the seals in the real world.How would Kai even work, if it's only in his mind?


In addition, it does not make the slightest bit of sense that executing a genjutsu through the finger (while the caster is only at 30 %) would be more powerful than executing it through the eye at 100% (and Oro was about to counter that in the real world)

*


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## Senkou (Jul 25, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> The complete Sharingan doesn't have precognition (properly speaking), in any case. It projects an image of where the opponent's body will be in the eye that is calculated instantly in the brain based upon physical cues based upon the body's current state. It can only read physical movements, which Hiraishin is not. And Obito has thus far proved incapable of reading where Minato is about to jump or even that he is about to jump. Which indicates both that the seals do not give a chakra signature indicating what will happen, and that the chakra fluctuation within Minato prior to the use of Hirashin is too fast for the Sharingan to read.
> 
> For this reason alone, and also because Itachi has no demonstrated mastery of Jikukan ninjutsu anywhere within the range of Hirashin, it is inconceivable that he could copy it. He might be able to copy the seal for Hirashin since he has demonstrated advanced Fuuinjutsu, but that is of no help to him.



I'll give you the reading physical movements and FTG being a ninjutsu

However, the idea that the seals don't give off a chakra signature. That is pure speculation. It's reverse summoning, and by that, the seals would give off a chakra signature. Even if for the moment that the seals become a glowing piece of paper, Minato is emerging from it's location.

The real issue likely isn't _not_ giving off a chakra signature but is that the Sharingan only sees chakra that is within the field of vision. Hence, unable to see a glowing tag that is some place behind him. Unlike the Byakugan's 360 fov.

Which would make a lot of sense as far as Obito unable to know where he will come from. Because there is no reason for Minato to warp to a location in his opponent's field of vision. Hence he is popping up outside of their field of vision (ref: brief encounter with Raikage)

As for the copying. It probably isn't that complicated. If Itachi understands summoning methods, then copying the seal would really be all he needs. However, he likely wouldn't be able to use it in the same time frame that he copied it. Since all summoning jutsu is somehwat different. As far as what is summoned goes. So you're right, it would likely be useless to him.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 25, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Your acting as if Minato uses Hirashin non-stop. As if Minato never stands still to analyze his opponents abilities.  [/IMG]



A lot of your arguments wreak of "look into Itachi's eye and you're finished". Thus it is fair to slap you with an equally illogical argument of Minato will use Hiraishin non-stop and will win the match easily.

That's also fair. The "Itachi insta-kills with Genjutsu" stance relies heavily on selective panels where some foes got hit with Genjutsu. Likewise the "Minato wins instantly" uses all the times Minato has killed many foes by just warping to their location.

Food for thought: Minato has twice managed to hit Obito with Hiraishin and take them down. The mere power in Obito's eyes was enough to keep Itachi from directly confronting him. 
The Minato-Obito and Itachi-Obito interactions arguably give anyone a solid case to infer that at all times Obito was on a higher level than Itachi. That Minato was good enough to take Obito out i.e. Minato is on that level which is above Itachi's. 

This doesn't include Obito who - going by Madara and what we know - is very close to the RS' level.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> No, I have always said that Itachi is a different type of fighter than the other Uchiha's.



No, he generally fights like all elite Uchiha whom rely on the Sharingan and Mangekyou Sharingan. Granted there are a few who can be considered above this elite level (Sasuke, Madara, Obito...). 

Though there might be some _small_ truth in what you say. Itachi fights differently by relying more on Genjutsu, perhaps. That's only because he's got lower stamina than most Uchiha - a clan known for having high chakra levels. Evidence for this comes from his performance as Edo Itachi wherein he didn't rely on Genjutsu as much as there was no chakra capacity issue.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 25, 2013)

Senkou said:


> However, the idea that the seals don't give off a chakra signature. That is pure speculation. It's reverse summoning, and by that, the seals would give off a chakra signature. Even if for the moment that the seals become a glowing piece of paper, Minato is emerging from it's location.



The idea that they _do_ give off a chakra signature is pure speculation. A seal for a reverse summoning, or a summoning, for that matter, has never been seen to give off a chakra signature. The seal automatically has a chakra signature because _it's a fuuinjutsu_. There is no indication it is any different when the jutsu is happening. 


> As for the copying. It probably isn't that complicated. If Itachi understands summoning methods, then copying the seal would really be all he needs. However, he likely wouldn't be able to use it in the same time frame that he copied it. Since all summoning jutsu is somehwat different. As far as what is summoned goes. So you're right, it would likely be useless to him.



He has to perceive and decipher the chakra formation necessary for the technique. That is how Sharingan copying works. Minato's Hiraishin is activated so fast that Obito was unable to predict when he was going to use it, so there is no way for it to be copied. Heck, Obito himself couldn't copy it and he was a Jikukan ninjutsu user. Itachi is not a specialist. The Sharingan doesn't instant copy all abilities. It allows users to copy ninjutsu that they have the prerequisites to use. It's why Kakashi could only copy the Rasengan up to a certain point because he couldn't use shape manipulation any more advanced to that. 

p.s. I noticed that bit about Itachi channeling his genjutsu through _sight_. Uh no, that isn't how genjutsu works. It channels his chakra through specific mediums that are registered through sight. Aka, his eyes and his hands. The notion that he can channel his genjutsu through a kunai is absurd, since not only has he never done that, but no genjutsu has ever been done like that. Until further notice, Itachi is limited to his eyes and his hands. Which makes perfect sense since more jutsu are not channeled through some random part of the body. Heck, you would have to say that Itachi can channel it through his clothes to get to most parts of the body. And if he could channel it through any part of his face, then using his eyes at all seems redundant. It would make more sense to channel his chakra through his entire head to make sure the opponent got caught. 

You can't just have Itachi using genjutsu through any visual medium you feel like. That isn't how Itachi's genjutsu has ever been shown to work.


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## Turrin (Jul 25, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> No, your not understanding my post.
> 
> Itachi is a genjutsu type of fighter, you think Kabuto will take this necessary genjutsu defense if he was facing Sasuke? You think Asuma and Kurenai will close their eyes if they were facing Sasuke? If you do, then you just blindly hate Itachi.
> 
> ...


No your not understanding my post, Chiyo's words prove that all Uchiha who have reached three tome are Genjutsu type fighters, so in that regard they are no different from Itachi. Itachi being better at Genjutsu than them doesn't change that they are Genjutsu type fighters. 

And for the record I think your hating on Sasuke if you think he couldn't Genjutsu Kurunai and Asuma just as easily as Itachi can. I also think your hating on Orochimaru if you think he was one-shotted by Three Tome Sharigan considering he laughs off a injury such as having his hand cut off.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 25, 2013)

Turrin said:


> No your not understanding my post, Chiyo's words prove that all Uchiha who have reached three tome are Genjutsu type fighters, so in that regard they are no different from Itachi. Itachi being better at Genjutsu than them doesn't change that they are Genjutsu type fighters.



*This*. Notice that the pages that Turrin refers to link to all Uchiha. Furthermore notice how Itachi's own words in part 1 (regarding Tsukuyomi) was also something he generalised to all Uchiha.

Uchiha has no special level of Genjutsu that is above the Uchiha. He perhaps has a minor edge on them with long range control.

If anything, Shisui probably has a special level of Genjutsu above the Uchiha. You can probably even toss in Madara and Obito, given that Oonoki made a huge deal about Madara's Genjutsu and that Obito's control over Yagura was compared to Koto.
You might even toss in Sasuke given that Itachi needed Tsukuyomi to do what Sasuke could accomplish with normal Genjutsu, during their battle with Kabuto.

In short: Itachi isn't this Genjutsu master as a lot of you have been saying. We can already make solid cases for better Sharingan Genjutsu users. In fact any Itachi Genjutsu hype (apart from the minor long range control) has been generalised to all Uchiha.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 25, 2013)

Isn't the Uchicha clan known and recognized by there genjutsu ability once hey awaken the sharingan..

Offtopic

*Spoiler*: __ 



I would love to find out more about Toka senju. Nothing is hardly known about her abilties besides she was world renowned forher genjutsu ability. I mean cmon,  how  F'N badass do good you got to be when the height of the Uchicha clan and the god among them running around then


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## Sadgoob (Jul 25, 2013)

I think her being renowned for genjutsu was anime filler, no? Regardless, Itachi's still has her beat in gejutsu hype. 
​


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## The Prodigy (Jul 26, 2013)

Turrin said:


> This has nothing to do with fighting style you are just wanking on how Itachi is better at Genjutsu than most other Uchiha.



Thus he is a different kind of fighter. Like Obito is a different kind of fighter for using S/T as his dominant fighting style, Sasuke's dominant style being ninjutsu, and Itachi's dominant style being genjutsu. Sure all Uchiha are able to use genjutsu. But Chiyo's method working against Itachi's fighting style, even barring MS simply wouldn't work.


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## blk (Jul 26, 2013)

*@Deshi Basara:*
As i wrote in the part that you ignored, i wouldn't have replied to your points if you wouldn't have took into consideration my point about the logical flaw of your argument (by at least arguing against my belief regarding the logical fallacy).
This, because your willingness to outright ignore _a blatant_ issue in your argument shows that you don't want to have an intellectually honest discussion (either because you are a troll or an ignorant fanboy).
Also, if you took note, i linked the wikipedia page that talk about deductive reasoning in order to show that i wasn't "making up" a BS (even though anyone with a basic understanding of logical reasoning should understand a flaw like the one in your argument without going to wikipedia, but you clearly don't possess such basic knowledge).




Turrin said:


> Well let's take a look at these images:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



In both cases Minato's line of sight, even if it's maybe not focused on Obito's eyes, included them. What i mean is that Minato was seeing them, even if he maybe didn't watched them. Isn't that enough for be caught in a genjutsu? Because i remember that when people wanted to avoid the Sharingan they had to move their line of sight so that they couldn't even see the Sharingan.

Also, in the second case we don't know where their eyes are focused (you can watch in different directions even without moving your head).

What Obito did isn't necessarily the same as what might be sufficent for expose Minato to that opening.
And i would like to make clear that i'm not suggesting that Obito could have necessarily caught Minato in a genjutsu during those instances, that's something that i don't know; what i'm claiming is that, based on his feats, _Itachi_ could have/can caught Minato in a genjutsu in similar situations.



> Obito probably did not know who the Jinchuuriki were as children and the Jinchuuriki were probably heavily guarded.
> 
> Should we once again go with the BS excuse that he forgot he had it or should we instead go with Occam's razor (the simplest explanation is usually the right one), that once again we have another person whose difficult to place in Genjutsu due to his speed?
> 
> Finally even if you still want to call it PNJ (which I don't support), that really doesn't help your argument, because if Kishi is flexing his plot muscle to prevent Minato from getting captured in Genjutsu, that's the best Genjutsu defense you can have LOL, as it's in essence the god of the Narutoverse blocking you from getting Genjutsu'd.



Obito had the Zetsus who could inform him of anything he needed to know. I'll also repeat that the young Uchiha could have easily capture Naruto the morning after the battle or at any time during his childhood.

And as i wrote before, i'm not claiming that Obito could have necessarily caught Minato in a genjutsu.

The plot shield is not something that we should use in the battledome because:

- the battledome is about _non-canon_ battles;

- pure plot-shield explanations are difficult to demonstrate (since there are generally no evidences for it and more rational explanations are by default more probable if evidences are lacking);

- if we use plot shield in the battledome, then characters like Naruto and Sasuke would never lose a battle and any debate about them would die.



> It's stated he sealed half of the Fox's chakra & power inside of himself and sealed the other half in Naruto, so there should be no difference in power or quantity:
> 
> As for differences we know the differences because we've seen them through Naruto. We know that KCM increases a person's speed and reaction time dramatically.



Maybe the half that Minato has is less powerful? Or maybe the Kyuubi recovered all of his chakra during his stay inside Naruto?
If Minato would have had that much of an increment in speed, i guess that it would have been noted.
He was also hit before he could use Hirashin by Obito, so... the augmentation doesn't seem as drastic as the one that Naruto received.
But who knows, maybe he'll eventually show some impressive feat.



> He also knew that he was up against Fodder Zetsu in that instance and still used it. I mean personally I would think you'd be more cautious against a totally unknown level Uchiha than fodder Zetsu, but maybe that's just me.
> 
> However to me ther real problem is why not use it?



Minato wouldn't know that the enemy in front of him is an Uchiha.
The reason for why i don't believe that he would activate the KCM immediatly, is because characters, with an IC mindset, generally don't go all out if there is no (by their knowledge) particular danger.

But more importantly, i don't believe that Minato would even get to the point of activating the KCM in a manga-knowledge scenario against Itachi (where the latter knows that he is going against an Hokage).



> Or he looks into Itachi's eyes realizes the former has Sharingan and knowing the danger instantly moves out of eye contact, heck he can even use FTG to instantly move if the danger is high enough.



Depends if Itachi isn't already prepared to use a genjutsu on Minato.



Turrin said:


> You really have no proof that Minato never sparred with an Uchiha.
> 
> Yeah they didn't avoid eye contact because there were two of them and could break each other out of Genjutsu. Not to mention Asuma and Kurunai were ignorant of there being higher stages of the Sharingan than Three Tome, which made the Sharingan Dojutsu much more fearsome. Minato is not ignorant of this fact as he was well aware of Madara and showed no shock or surprise when Sasuke revealed his Eternal Mangekyo, which is even rarer than Mangekyo.
> 
> ...



You are probably correct in the point about Chiyo.

Itachi could have trapped both Asuma and Kurenai (genjutsu can be casted on multiple people), not only that, but with the presence of Kisame it would have been pretty much impossible (or extremely dangerous) to help the partner going out of a genjutsu.

Kakashi had some knowledge about Itachi's true power, actually [1 ; 2 ; 3].
What he lacked was knowledge of Tsukuyomi (that also Minato doesn't have, as far as we know).

Orochimaru was defeated by Itachi precisely because he was trying to take his body (it's not that he wanted it after the defeat). And as you said about Minato, it's unlikely that he never sparred with an Uchiha, that never fought alongside the Uchiha and that wouldn't see other people using the counters Chiyo spoke of, etc...
Remember that Orochimaru is older than Minato and partecipated to more wars that the latter did, so his experience is likely much higher.

Further, what about Jirayia? Not only he didn't avoided eye-contact with Itachi (setting himself for a potential one-shot) but he also summoned away the only possible partner that could have been usefull for break an eventual illusion.

Minato doesn't know Itachi's appearance, so he won't recognize him even after knowing Sasuke's story.
What was inside Naruto's seal was part of Minato's chakra (i would compare it to an holographic recording), while his soul (his real self) was in the stomach of the Death God. 



> And I'm pretty sure someone with Minato's speed and intellect can do this. I mean even Naruto quickly figured out he was in Itachi's Genjutsu, I can't imagine Minato wouldn't figure it out many times quicker than Naruto, and even if Itachi has an attack right in his face by than FTG would still save his ass.



Naruto could have been killed more then one time before he recognized that he was in a genjutsu.
And really, it's not a matter of being smart or not, it's just that Itachi's genjutsu was very realistic.

Minato can't know that he is in a genjutsu if it starts with no noticeable change from the real fight.



> Who ever said you can't use techniques while inside Genjutsu? Where are you getting that from?
> 
> It totally depends on the type of Genjutsu.



Ok, i concede this point.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 26, 2013)

*


			
				blk said:
			
		


			As i wrote in the part that you ignored,
		
Click to expand...



And as i wrote, MORE THAN ONCE, i advised you to stop beating around the bush and come up with proper counter arguments.You chose to ignore that, so...





			if you wouldn't have took into consideration my point about the logical flaw of your argument (by at least arguing against my belief regarding the logical fallacy).
		
Click to expand...



Sorry, but you clearly are clinging to every straw you can find, so you can downplay Minato and convince yourself that Itachi fodderizes him  instantly, and i don't have the time to indulge you. *


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 26, 2013)

Turrin said:


> No your not understanding my post, Chiyo's words prove that all Uchiha who have reached three tome are Genjutsu type fighters, so in that regard they are no different from Itachi. Itachi being better at Genjutsu than them doesn't change that they are Genjutsu type fighters.
> 
> And for the record I think your hating on Sasuke if you think he couldn't Genjutsu Kurunai and Asuma just as easily as Itachi can. I also think your hating on Orochimaru if you think he was one-shotted by Three Tome Sharigan considering he laughs off a injury such as having his hand cut off.



According to the manga, Sasuke and Madara Uchiha is not a genjutsu type of fighter. Their arsenal is made up of Ninjutsu and Taijutsu. While Itachi's arsenal is mostly made up off Genjutsu. 

No other Uchiha we have seen uses Genjutsu as the main part of their arsenal. No other Uchiha's fighting style revolves over genjutsu.

Every fight Itachi was in, genjutsu was the game changer.

You hate Itachi thats why you can't acknowledge that Itachi is a unique type of fighter. Just because all Uchiha have sharingans and uses genjutsu now and then doesn't make them a Genjutsu type of fighter. 

1. Will Kabuto take up the necessary genjutsu defense if he was facing Sasuke?
- No, Kabuto thought he was invincible because he believed Itachi couldn't use genjutsu. 
FACT

2. Will Kurenai and Asuma close their eyes to fight Sasuke?
- No, for obvious reasons. Not saying Sasuke couldn't catch them in genjutsu, it is that they won't care as they know Sasuke fighting style revolves over ninjutsu's.

3. Did Orochimaru get owned by a genjutsu?
- Yes, sure he could have broke out of it, like everyone else, who has knowledge and necessary genjutsu defense they can of course break out of it. But not before getting owned. No evidence that fight lasted longer than you imagine. Just because he can laugh of getting chopped up in half doesn't mean he didn't accept defeat at that moment and decided to retreat.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 26, 2013)

As the greatest Uchiha of all time had to do, EMS Rinnegan Madara had to subdue the Raikage to cast a genjutsu. This proves that, as we knew well before, they have to be stationary to have the genjutsu casted.


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## Turrin (Jul 26, 2013)

blk said:


> In both cases Minato's line of sight, even if it's maybe not focused on Obito's eyes, included them. What i mean is that Minato was seeing them, even if he maybe didn't watched them. Isn't that enough for be caught in a genjutsu? Because i remember that when people wanted to avoid the Sharingan they had to move their line of sight so that they couldn't even see the Sharingan.
> 
> Also, in the second case we don't know where their eyes are focused (you can watch in different directions even without moving your head)..


According to Itachi himself Naruto is avoiding eye contact here despite looking like he's staring right at Itachi:
This is what happens.

So whether eye contact is made or not is not as noticeable as you think it is. And yes you can argue maybe he made eye contact, but that only get us so far as *maybe*. A maybe which is put in heavy doubt by the fact that again if Obito had a chance to catch Minato in Genjutsu why didn't he went he had every reason to do so. 



> What Obito did isn't necessarily the same as what might be sufficent for expose Minato to that opening.


Your the one who brought up this example I'm merely respond to it. If you have another example where Minato makes eye contact with an Uchiha easier than we can discuss that one. 



> And i would like to make clear that i'm not suggesting that Obito could have necessarily caught Minato in a genjutsu during those instances, that's something that i don't know; what i'm claiming is that, based on his feats, Itachi could have/can caught Minato in a genjutsu in similar situations.


The problem is Itachi can't be in a similar situation because he never had command of Kyuubi & never had Kamui. Sure if we gave those 2 things to Itachi than I could see his Genjutsu becoming a much bigger threat to Minato, but that belongs in some fantasy amalgam thread.



> Obito had the Zetsus who could inform him of anything he needed to know. I'll also repeat that the young Uchiha could have easily capture Naruto the morning after the battle or at any time during his childhood.


Obito had Zetsu yet even by Part II he was not aware of the locations of certain Jinchuuriki, hence why Kakuzu and Hidan had to travel across the entire continent searching for their targets. 

And i'm not seeing any proof what specific guard details these Jin had and that Obito could overcome them. We basically know nothing, so nothing can be proved. 



> The plot shield is not something that we should use in the battledome because


Well it's a two ways street than. If were not going to say PNJ protects Minato from Genjutsu, than we should say it was PNJ that prevented Minato from being caught by Obito, instead we should take it like we take everything else in the BD as a feat that even a skill Uchiha can't so easily Genjutsu Minato.



> Maybe the half that Minato has is less powerful? Or maybe the Kyuubi recovered all of his chakra during his stay inside Naruto?
> If Minato would have had that much of an increment in speed, i guess that it would have been noted.


Why does Kishi have to note the KCM increases speed in Minato's case specifically when it was already stated to increase speed in the manga? That's like saying Kishi has to state for each Katon user that their Katon's are hot lol. That's just silly to me.

What's more even if we want to pretend that Minato's kyuubi chakra is some how inferior to Naruto's despite both their kyuubi chakra causing them to enter identical KCM modes. Even if Minato's chakra is somewhat less powerful/quantity, that still does not change the fact that it would still drastically increase his speed. Heck KN0 drastically increased Naruto's speed and that's nowhere near Minato's KCM. And even if Minato's Kyuubi chakra offers less of an increase, he has less of a gap to cover since Base Minato already has incredible speed/reflexes, while Base Naruto does not.

And we actually do have a feat from Minato which would suggest his KCM form is faster than Naruto's. Minato actually reacts to Transformed Obito's attack here, putting up a guard:
This is what happens.

While KCM Naruto is completely blitz'd by Transformed Obito's speed:
This is what happens.



> He was also hit before he could use Hirashin by Obito, so... the augmentation doesn't seem as drastic as the one that Naruto received.


Being hit by Form 2 Obito really tells us nothing because Obito is an absolutely ridiculous speed demon himself. I mean even in Form 1 Obito he blitz'd KCM Naruto.



> Minato wouldn't know that the enemy in front of him is an Uchiha.


Again yes he would because he knows who Itachi is from his time as Hokage.



> The reason for why i don't believe that he would activate the KCM immediatly, is because characters, with an IC mindset, generally don't go all out if there is no (by their knowledge) particular danger.


Using KCM is not going all out. Did Naruto go all out against those Zetsu fodder lol, heck no. So I don't follow your logic.

It would be one thing If I said Minato goes KCM summons out tons of clones while using Shiki Fuujin + FTG through them. That would be going all out, just using KCM isn't not even close to that.



> But more importantly, i don't believe that Minato would even get to the point of activating the KCM in a manga-knowledge scenario against Itachi (where the latter knows that he is going against an Hokage).


KCM can be activated almost instantly, so are you really saying Itachi will have defeated Minato that quickly. I really hope not, because if so I can't really take your point of view seriously anymore.



> Depends if Itachi isn't already prepared to use a genjutsu on Minato.


Itachi won't be prepared, because it's impossible for him to know w/o being physicwhen Minato is about to make eye contact or not.




> Itachi could have trapped both Asuma and Kurenai (genjutsu can be casted on multiple people), not only that, but with the presence of Kisame it would have been pretty much impossible (or extremely dangerous) to help the partner going out of a genjutsu.
> 
> Kakashi had some knowledge about Itachi's true power, actually [1 ; 2 ; 3].
> What he lacked was knowledge of Tsukuyomi (that also Minato doesn't have, as far as we know).
> ...


Three of these guys are essentially fodder when compared to Minato or Itachi, and one of them had Sharigan he thought could put up a defense, which he was mistaken about. 

Orochimaru is specifically stated in the DB to be unable to comprehend the power of the Sharingan and is shown to constantly underestimate his opponents paying dearly for it; allowing Hiruzen to perform Shiki Fuujin just because he wanted to see the Jutsu for example. 

In J-man's case I don't want to get into Jiraiya vs Itachi, so i'm not going to even bother with that example.

But the bottom line is none of these characters are Minato so we can't project their actions onto him & not one of them have speed anywhere close to Base Minato's, let alone when Minato uses KCM, Shunshin, & or FTG, so we can't project their performance onto him.



> What was inside Naruto's seal was part of Minato's chakra (i would compare it to an holographic recording), while his soul (his real self) was in the stomach of the Death God.


Minato obvious had knowledge from the time in the seal otherwise he'd have gone on about how his son looks and everything else as it would be the first time he saw his son since Naruto was a baby.



> Naruto could have been killed more then one time before he recognized that he was in a genjutsu.


Yeah that's start of Part II Naruto whose fodder compared to Minato in intelligence and exp.



> Minato can't know that he is in a genjutsu if it starts with no noticeable change from the real fight.


If there is no change than the Genjutsu is pointless. If there is a very subtle change like in the case of Sasuke vs Danzo, than there could be some merit to the Genjutsu depending on how it's used, but it's not some going to be some huge game changer ether. 

We've never seen a Genjutsu that leaves the person caught in it helpless which wasn't extremely noticeable (except Koto and Izanami).


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 26, 2013)

The way some people talk, you would think that "manga feats" means "canon".

And yet, these people keep insisting that "if it looks like someone was staring at an Uchiha, they were making eye contact". It just goes to show that manga feats are as subject to interpretation as hype or the databook.


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## Yagura (Jul 27, 2013)

> Completely idiotic argument.Madara was using meteors, gigantic forests etc he used genjutsu against fodders for fuck's sake.


 
And all of that was done so casually. The moment he decided he was finished playing around he fodderized the kages and left the battlefield. It's been made abundantly clear that only Hashirama can make Madara fight seriously. 



> My f'n god.Are you being deliberately ignorant?This BS already got destroyed by multiple people in this thread.Read their posts, read the f'n manga for god's sake!



Lol, calm down.  


Let's rewind here, shall we? You asked me how Itachi would realize that Minato had made eye contact. I responded by saying the Sharingan's natural abilities will allow him to predict Minato's _body movements_ (i.e. not teleporting) beforehand so that he can adjust accordingly. I never mentioned Hiraishin. Learn2read.




> How is this relevant to your preposterous argument in any way, shape or form?According to you the sharingan  is suppose to predict that shit and make eye contact whatever you wanted to or not?



You should really start thinking through what your posting before pushing 'submit reply', bro. 


You brought up Naruto as evidence of someone being able to avoid eye contact. I responded by pointing out that he was just standing there, staring at Itachi's abdomen, doing nothing. i.e. not engaged in the heat of combat. Again, learn2read.



> Yes, because he's never been put in such a situation.Stop using straw man arguments.



Show me the panel that shows, states, or implies that Minato has the same level of sensory ability that Karin has. Or that all sensors have the same abilities. Or, better yet, Minato actually displaying that ability! I'll wait.



> You are still wrong.Naruto was trying to break out with Kai before Itachi stopped him.We saw him in the genjutsu, but that doesn't mean he wasn't executing the seals in the real world.How would Kai even work, if it's only in his mind?



Oh I'm sure that makes sense if you actually believe Naruto was running around spamming Rasengan, throwing Kunai, choking himself,    screaming, and  crying in reality. Never mind that it shows he never even moved or that barely a few moments had passed.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 27, 2013)

*


			
				Yagura said:
			
		


			And all of that was done so casually. The moment he decided he was finished playing around he fodderized the kages and left the battlefield. It's been made abundantly clear that only Hashirama can make Madara fight seriously.
		
Click to expand...


This has nothing to do with him not using genujutsu, especially since he wanted to break their spirit, and especially when he actually had to work to put Ei in genjutsu (which according to you, he should've been able to do with the sharingan's prediction ability alone)


Besides, he flat out told us that he wanted to get rid of Tsunade and Onoki earlier.Yes, he never went all out, but that doesn't mean he lacked killing intent.




			Let's rewind here, shall we? You asked me how Itachi would realize that Minato had made eye contact. I responded by saying the Sharingan's natural abilities will allow him to predict Minato's body movements (i.e. not teleporting) beforehand so that he can adjust accordingly. I never mentioned Hiraishin. Learn2read.
		
Click to expand...



"Learn2read"


That's funny.Considering that in the posts i showed, yes Hirashin was mentioned, but also the sharingan getting pwned by Lee and Bee's kenjutsu.Neither of which used teleportation.So follow your own advise, and "Learn2read".

Sharingan prediction only gets you so far.It doesn't make your movements and reactions on pair with your opponent's.




			You should really start thinking through what your posting before pushing 'submit reply', bro.
		
Click to expand...


As i already said, your "advises", are better applied to yourself.You keep making up shit as you go along, not realizing that you are destroying your own argument in the process.Im just pointing that out.

Naruto sitting still or not, doesn't really matter.You argument is that Itachi will be able to put Minato instantly in genjutsu, before Minato realizes that he is an Uchiha and tries to avoid eye contact.

Naruto and the others did not instantly realize that Itachi was their opponent, and instantly avoid eye contact.They were all surprised.Moreover, Itachi's seen making seals for casting that genjutsu:

Gaara says





			You brought up Naruto as evidence of someone being able to avoid eye contact. I responded by pointing out that he was just standing there, staring at Itachi's abdomen, doing nothing. i.e. not engaged in the heat of combat. Again, learn2read.
		
Click to expand...


Keep crushing your own argument.Saves me the trouble.





			Show me the panel that shows, states, or implies that Minato has the same level of sensory ability that Karin has. Or that all sensors have the same abilities. Or, better yet, Minato actually displaying that ability! I'll wait.
		
Click to expand...



Minato has already been shown to be able to sense chakra.Sensing disturbances in your own chakra is not some special ability exclusive to Karin.How does that even make the slightest bit of sense?If it was, Kishi would've hyped it as such.

Moreover, when have sensors ever been implied of having different abilities?The only differences that have been noted, are the speed and the range that they sense things.


Last but not least, this "feats only", as pointed out by other people in this thread already, is a made up BS rule, that only people like you use, when it suits them.So, for the last time, stop arguing straw man.




			Oh I'm sure that makes sense if you actually believe Naruto was running around spamming Rasengan, throwing Kunai, choking himself, screaming, and crying in reality. Never mind that it shows he never even moved or that barely a few moments had passed.
		
Click to expand...



In the anime (as non-canon as it is) Sakura mentions that Naruto has actually done these things.So, is not as absurd as you think it sounds.

And you didn't bother to address these very important points:


1.How would Kai even work, if it's only in his mind? 

2.In addition, it does not make the slightest bit of sense that executing a genjutsu through the finger (while the caster is only at 30 %) would be more powerful than executing it through the eye at 100% (and Oro was about to counter that in the real world)
*


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 27, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> As the greatest Uchiha of all time had to do, EMS Rinnegan Madara had to subdue the Raikage to cast a genjutsu. This proves that, as we knew well before, they have to be stationary to have the genjutsu casted.



If this was true, then Gai wouldn't have trained to fight genjutsu users by looking at their feet instead of their eyes. 

Keep trying, you and Turrin just trying force your opinion as fact when it goes against the manga.


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## Yagura (Jul 27, 2013)

> This has nothing to do with him not using genujutsu, especially since he wanted to break their spirit, and especially when he actually had to work to put Ei in genjutsu



How does it not? Whether Madara used Genjutsu against the Gokage or not is entirely irrelevant to him; it's not like it actually effected his chances of winning like it does Itachi. 



> Besides, he flat out told us that he wanted to get rid of Tsunade and
> Onoki earlier.



Now then why didn't he try to Genjutsu them? 



> That's funny.Considering that in the posts i showed, yes Hirashin was mentioned, but also the sharingan getting pwned by Lee and Bee's kenjutsu.Neither of which used teleportation.So follow your own advise, and "Learn2read".



No, my application of the term (meme?) is accurate. I posted my views on the on how the speed of non-teleporting Minato and Itachi compare earlier in the thread. 



Yagura said:


> He's roughly equal to base Minato, really.



And before you say I ignored KCM; 


Yagura said:


> The only mildy impressive thing Minato has shown in KCM is Kage Bunshin, which most people already assumed he could do anyway.




Also, about those posts you brought up...




> sharingan getting pwned by Lee



This was against a two tomoe Sasuke, who lacked precognition. Therefore holds no relevance to our discussion, wasn't even worth addressing.



> Bee's kenjutsu.



Same thing here. How is this relevant to our discussion? Minato isn't a Kenjutsu master, last I checked.



> As i already said, your "advises", are better applied to yourself.You keep making up shit as you go along, not realizing that you are destroying your own argument in the process.Im just pointing that out.





> You argument is that Itachi will be able to put Minato instantly in genjutsu



I never once argued this. Maybe you should actually attempt to comprehend what my argument is rather than bitch and moan about how I don't agree with you.



> Naruto and the others did not instantly realize that Itachi was their opponent, and instantly avoid eye contact.They were all surprised.



I had hoped you'd notice how I've gone out of my way to continually add - _in combat._ 



> Moreover, Itachi's seen making seals for casting that genjutsu
> outright



Yeah, and? Don't really see how that's suppose to be a hindrance, if that is what your implying.



> Keep crushing your own argument.Saves me the trouble.



The only argument being crushed here is yours. 



> Minato has already been shown to be able to sense chakra.Sensing disturbances in your own chakra is not some special ability exclusive to Karin.How does that even make the slightest bit of sense?If it was, Kishi would've hyped it as such.
> 
> Moreover, when have sensors ever been implied of having different abilities?The only differences that have been noted, are the speed and the range that they sense things.



Karin is a special case when it comes sensors. First off, Karin has a specific unique sensory technique- the Kagura Shingan. It's was noted as a "superior perception ability" in the Databook. She and her ability have received hype in the manga as well.

Sasuke: ....she has a special power that no one else has.

Kakashi: ...they have a extremely talented chakra sensing type shinobi on their side.

She has displayed several different capabilities with her sensory skills which are so far unique only to her. Being able to discern honesty, see through Kage Bunshin, and of course perceive irregularities in an individuals chakra flow.  



> Last but not least, this "feats only", as pointed out by other people in this thread already, is a made up BS rule, that only people like you use, when it suits them.



Blah blah blah - quit whining already. Your incredibly naive if you don't think that  goes both ways. 



> In the anime (as non-canon as it is) Sakura mentions that Naruto has actually done these things.So, is not as absurd as you think it sounds.



Yes it is.  Call me crazy, but I think they would have caught on earlier had he been running around attacking phantom enemies.



> 1.How would Kai even work, if it's only in his mind?



It's the rapid chakra fluctuation that matters, not the position of the hands.



> 2.In addition, it does not make the slightest bit of sense that executing a genjutsu through the finger (while the caster is only at 30 %) would be more powerful than executing it through the eye at 100% (and Oro was about to counter that in the real world)



Don't see what your getting at here.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 27, 2013)

*


			
				Yagura said:
			
		


			How does it not? Whether Madara used Genjutsu against the Gokage or not is entirely irrelevant to him; it's not like it actually effected his chances of winning like it does Itachi.
		
Click to expand...


Complete nonsense.He was willing to get hit, so he can break their will, if genjutsu was the easier option, he would've used it and not waited until Ei was completely distracted.





			Now then why didn't he try to Genjutsu them?
		
Click to expand...


Obviously because is not as easy as you dream of it being.




			He's roughly equal to base Minato, really.

And before you say I ignored KCM;

The only mildy impressive thing Minato has shown in KCM is Kage Bunshin, which most people already assumed he could do anyway.
		
Click to expand...


Me, Turrin and others have already addressed Itachi's supposed equality with Minato, KCM Minato not having enough feats etc... But since you are either too lazy, or just playing ignorant, let me summarize:


-Base Minato is faster than Itachi.Itachi's shunshin has never been hyped in the first place, let alone being anywhere near Minato's.

-Ei even admitted inferiority to Minato, but he didn't include Obito, even after witnessing Obito, casually slip though his fastest punch, and teleport in and out of the Kage summit.That means- he doesn't consider Minato faster than himself, just because of Hirashin.


-Minato's KCM doesn't need anymore feats and hype, after all the hype Naruto's got.Kishi would assume we got message.What wouid be the purpose of Minato getting it in the first place, if it provides little to no improvements?






			This was against a two tomoe Sasuke, who lacked precognition. Therefore holds no relevance to our discussion, wasn't even worth addressing.
		
Click to expand...


Heh.

enton
enton





			Same thing here. How is this relevant to our discussion? Minato isn't a Kenjutsu master, last I checked.
		
Click to expand...



How is your response relevant, when i point out that the sharingan doesn't give the magic ability to keep up with opponents that are faster than you?

And yes, Minato isn't a kenjutsu master, but Bee's sword movements are not faster than his shunshin.






			I never once argued this. Maybe you should actually attempt to comprehend what my argument is rather than bitch and moan about how I don't agree with you.


I had hoped you'd notice how I've gone out of my way to continually add - in combat.


Yeah, and? Don't really see how that's suppose to be a hindrance, if that is what your implying.
		
Click to expand...



Then your argument makes even less sense, if you are implying that Itachi will be able to make eye contact, if Minato is moving and trying to avoid it.




			Karin is a special case when it comes sensors. First off, Karin has a specific unique sensory technique- the Kagura Shingan. It's was noted as a "superior perception ability" in the Databook. She and her ability have received hype in the manga as well.
		
Click to expand...


Yeah, i don't exactly trust the DB, and im not required to either.As well as many other people.

Besides, Naruto already showed a similar ability:


enton


And iirc, the sensors in the main headquarters of the Alliance, were sensing some shit over great distance as well.




			Sasuke: ....she has a special power that no one else has.
		
Click to expand...


Yeah, and we've only seen one person so far that heals people almost instantly, just by getting bitten, and that's Karin.Tsunade and Sakura certainly don't do that.




			Kakashi: ...they have a extremely talented chakra sensing type shinobi on their side.
		
Click to expand...



I never implied she wasn't capable.That still doesn't mean she has entirely different sensing abilities.Just faster, more powerful, and wider than most no-named sensors.




			She has displayed several different capabilities with her sensory skills which are so far unique only to her. Being able to discern honesty,
		
Click to expand...



Before that she says that she can "sense his chakras", the ability to notice disturbances is not pointed out as something different.





			see through Kage Bunshin
		
Click to expand...


Not according to this translation:

"There was only one source of Danzou's chakra, with me able to sense him, so it's no way it was Kage Bunshin"




			Not that what you were saying made sense in the first place.Would you please read through your own pages, before posting them?She says that she keeps seeing him "smashed to bits" with her own eyes, and that she detects "only one source" of his chakra, so how exactly will it be a bunshin?
		
Click to expand...





			Yes it is. Call me crazy, but I think they would have caught on earlier had he been running around attacking phantom enemies.
		
Click to expand...



They had to be careful with Itachi and Kakashi jumping around them.





			It's the rapid chakra fluctuation that matters, not the position of the hands.
		
Click to expand...


Again, how does that make sense if it's only in his mind?Why need Jiraiya's method at all, why not just will himself out of it?





			Don't see what your getting at here.
		
Click to expand...



You obviously lack basic reading comprehension.

*


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## Sadgoob (Jul 27, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> The way some people talk, you would think that "manga feats" means "canon".
> 
> And yet, these people keep insisting that "if it looks like someone was staring at an Uchiha, they were making eye contact". It just goes to show that manga feats are as subject to interpretation as hype or the databook.



I already explained how Minato was clearly focused on Obito's eyelashes.



Elite Uchiha said:


> This proves that, as we knew well before, they have to be stationary to have the genjutsu casted.



Killer Bee from several hundred chapters ago says hello.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 27, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> If this was true, then Gai wouldn't have trained to fight genjutsu users by looking at their feet instead of their eyes.
> 
> Keep trying, you and Turrin just trying force your opinion as fact when it goes against the manga.



First off he did that to combat Kakashi's ocular genjutsu. A ninja like Kurenai or Tayuya do not need to have eye contact to cast genjutsu so this point is moot. 

Secondly, please dont compare KCM Naruto, Minato, or the Raikage to Gai in speed, especially since he was amazed by KCM Naruto's speed. Also, Kakashi was keeping up with Gated Gai during the fight with Obito...so his speed really is not impressive in the grand scheme of things.


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## God of Kingz (Jul 27, 2013)

Deshi Basara said:


> *
> Heh.
> 
> Link removed
> ...



Been readin your discussion and Im pretty sure this is what he means.

Link removed

The extra 3rd tomoe-thing gives you new abilities that sauce didn't have against rock lee. just wanted to point it out.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 28, 2013)

God of Kingz said:


> Been readin your discussion and Im pretty sure this is what he means.
> 
> (2)
> 
> The extra 3rd tomoe-thing gives you new abilities that sauce didn't have against rock lee. just wanted to point it out.



*Im very well aware of what he means.What you are BOTH ignoring however, and he even goes so far as to say:

"Therefore holds no relevance to our discussion, wasn't even worth addressing. "

is the following:


"Even if you can see it, if your body can't react, it's useless"


Reinforced by Naruto himself, in that same fight later:

(2)
(2)

And Bee against an MS Sasuke.

So don't jump into discussions when you have zero to no understanding of the overall argument.*


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## God of Kingz (Jul 28, 2013)

Deshi Basara said:


> *Im very well aware of what he means.What you are BOTH ignoring however, and he even goes so far as to say:
> 
> "Therefore holds no relevance to our discussion, wasn't even worth addressing. "
> 
> ...



....but that was said about the two tomoe version which does not have the prediction ability. that's probably why he thought is was not relevante to itachi.



Deshi Basara said:


> *Reinforced by Naruto himself, in that same fight later:
> 
> ability to use doton as well
> ability to use doton as well
> *


That was a chakra arm though. The sharingan cant read how chakra will move, only the body.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 28, 2013)

God of Kingz said:


> ....but that was said about the two tomoe version which does not have the prediction ability. that's probably why he thought is was not relevante to itachi.



*Looks like you both cling for straws and ignore everything else.

It's irrelevant what it was said for, considering it applies perfectly to even the MS, and EMS (against Obito)





			That was a chakra arm though. The sharingan cant read how chakra will move, only the body.
		
Click to expand...



He still saw it coming, still could not do anything to protect himself.


And that is worth noting, even if the sharingan prediction ability was not at play. *


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 28, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> If this was true, then Gai wouldn't have trained to fight genjutsu users by looking at their feet instead of their eyes.



Not looking into an Uchiha's eyes is something top tier can easily do. Hence *Itachi* advised a top tier to _simply_ not look into his eyes. 



Elite Uchiha said:


> As the greatest Uchiha of all time had to do, EMS Rinnegan Madara had to subdue the Raikage to cast a genjutsu. This proves that, as we knew well before, they have to be stationary to have the genjutsu casted.



Not stationary, because remember: Madara caught a mobile shinobi under his Genjutsu. However the event you cite does cement what Itachi suggested, that top tiers, or decently skilled shinobi can easily avoid eye contact. 

Based on the level of shinobi that Kakashi advised the same thing to you can say "decently skilled" means Chunin level and above. Considering that Itachi only caught Naruto with the finger Genjutsu, which he leads us to believe is only effective against Chunin level shinobi... in this case shinobi who have low knowledge/skill to combat Genjutsu. 
As such you could say the finger Genjutsu *only* works on shinobi who are lacking in Genjutsu knowledge/skill considering that Itachi used the illusion with the notion that Naruto was still a low level shinobi- he was in shock that he was wrong about Naruto's potential level. 

tl;dr: It isn't likely Minato is going to lose to Itachi's Genjutsu.


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## Matty (Mar 6, 2016)

I personally believe Itachi genjutsus the shit out of Minato if there is no knowledge. Amaterasu could also do the trick

Utakata ftw


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## ImSerious (Mar 6, 2016)

y u do dis


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