# Syria War Thread 2.0



## Kagekatsu (Sep 30, 2015)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34399164


> *Syria crisis: Russian air strikes against Assad enemies
> 3 hours ago*
> 
> Russia has begun carrying out air strikes in Syria against opponents of President Bashar al-Assad.
> ...



Well if Russia wants to throw blood and treasure trying to keep Assad propped up they are free to do so IMO, maybe kill a few jihadists while they're at it.

As Sunny would say:


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## Punished Pathos (Sep 30, 2015)

I really fear for Assad.
I mean first he was blamed for a chemical attack and now he has been pushed to war by these simulated terrorist factions that the west has cultivated and people blame him for the spread the ISIS.

Gee, what a good way to destablize the M.E.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Sep 30, 2015)

Punished Pathos said:


> I really fear for Assad.
> I mean first he was blamed for a chemical attack and now he has been pushed to war by these simulated terrorist factions that the west has cultivated and people blame him for the spread the ISIS.
> 
> Gee, what a good way to destablize the M.E.



I don't. The guy is a horrible dictator.

He bombed his own people to stop protests agaisnt him.

He deserves to die a horrible death.

Arguably the fact Russia is helping him is a bad news, since it means he and his offspring have a good chance of staying in power for decades to come.

Though that could also mean the destruction of ISIS, so I don't know what to think.

Damn ME is fucked for having to pick between dictators and religious fundamentalists.


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## Nemesis (Sep 30, 2015)

Problem is the first few days of strikes have been in areas where ISIS are not even present, Russians are striking against the pro western rebel held areas instead.


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## Sunuvmann (Sep 30, 2015)

I don't even need to post 


Punished Pathos said:


> I really fear for Assad.
> I mean first he was blamed for a chemical attack and now he has been pushed to war by these simulated terrorist factions that the west has cultivated and people blame him for the spread the ISIS.
> 
> Gee, what a good way to destablize the M.E.




Assadfag, plz leave.


Also use some fucking logic you autist. It literally is in no one's interest to destabilize the middle east. Its unstable enough already. And he continues to be a cancer on the region, a magnet for every angry sunni who want to see him dead.

Yes, sometimes a dictatorship is better than a Mad Maxesque state of anarchy. But peace is impossible so long as he is anywhere in the vicinity of Syria because he is ISIS' single most potent recruiting tool.


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## Megaharrison (Sep 30, 2015)

Should be about as effective as the US, Iranian-Assad, Iraqi, Jordanian, French, Turkish, Qatari, Canadian, British, UAE, and Moroccan airstrikes. Go pound some more sand, Russia.

Though this only notable because attacking ISIS is mostly a cover, they're going to target any opponent of Assad. The Iranian intervention was not enough to save old Bashar and Hezbollah has  after years of heavy losses. Assad is in a desperate situation despite the proclamations of imminent victory from the guardian/RT/presstv

The Syrian war can not be solved militarily. The Iranian-Russian bloc that runs the war for Assad does not understand this. But by all means keep on throwing more of our enemies into the bloody grinder.


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## The Faceless Man (Sep 30, 2015)

And nobody does shit... this guy is killing the enemies of a dictator by pretending that he strikes ISIS 
Yeah im sure all those people are awful,  and to spoiled to live without a dictator

God fucking dammit
Really sad to see this shit.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 30, 2015)

Why hasn't Punished Pathos been banned from the Cafe?


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## Bender (Sep 30, 2015)

@ SuperSaiyaMan12

Let the man vent.

People no matter how stupid post their blather until they realize what they say is shit.


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## Sunuvmann (Sep 30, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Should be about as effective as the US, Iranian-Assad, Iraqi, Jordanian, French, Turkish, Qatari, Canadian, British, UAE, and Moroccan airstrikes. Go pound some more sand, Russia.
> 
> Though this only notable because attacking ISIS is mostly a cover, they're going to target any opponent of Assad. The Iranian intervention was not enough to save old Bashar and Hezbollah has  after years of heavy losses. Assad is in a desperate situation despite the proclamations of imminent victory from the guardian/RT/presstv
> 
> The Syrian war can not be solved militarily. The Iranian-Russian bloc that runs the war for Assad does not understand this. But by all means keep on throwing more of our enemies into the bloody grinder.


Well it can.

But only with a non-shit ground force to go with the air strikes who also are willing to occupy the ground taken.

The issue though is that any Assad gains are immediate fodder for ISIS to recruit more.

So its almost Sisyphean. Its possible to win. But not with Assad being a recruiting tool for every angry sunni male.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Oct 1, 2015)

I am still searching for those moderate rebels everyone is talking about...oh wait they dont exist...


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## Mider T (Oct 1, 2015)

Normally I'd be angered at the amount of blatant disrespect by those vodalky Cossacks but they're clearing out more scum so when the dust clears nobody will be able to stop us from mining dat oil and setting up the bases.  Plus digging up the WMDs Saddam hid in the eastern Syrian desert back in '02.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 1, 2015)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> I am still searching for those moderate rebels everyone is talking about...oh wait they dont exist...


They are there. Fighting both Assad and ISIS. GaaraOfTheDestert1, you have always shown to be a bit dense.


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## Megaharrison (Oct 1, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> Well it can.
> 
> But only with a non-shit ground force to go with the air strikes who also are willing to occupy the ground taken.
> 
> ...



Right now Assad has to reoccupy 2/3 of his own country. This conflict is actually conventional, with frontlines and mass pitched battles with tanks and aircraft. If Assad were to somehow get past this phase and take over the country he'd deal with a Vietnam/Iraq-style insurgency that would rip the country apart again. This would go on for years and years and could easily become even bloodier than the current phase of fighting. And this fighting has already reduced the conventional Syrian military to basically nothing, it's a militia of Alawites, Iranians, and Shia foreign Jihadists such as Hezbollah and Mahdists.

This is why the conflict can't be solved militarily for Assad, he isn't even 10% there after 4 years and 250,000 dead.


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## Bill G (Oct 1, 2015)

We spent $2 trillion, thousands of lives, wounded warriors all over. And Putin is now taking over what we started. And he is going into Syria and he frankly wants to fight ISIS and I think that is a wonderful thing! If he wants to fight ISIS, let him fight ISIS. Why do we always have to do everything? But he wants to go in and he wants to fight ISIS. He wants to keep, as you know the current leadership, Assad, in Syria. Personally, I’ve been looking at different players and I’ve watching Assad and saying maybe he is better than the kind of people we are supposed to be backing, because we don’t even know who we are backing, we have no idea.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 1, 2015)

Bill G, you need to take off the stupid hat now. The Trump support act is getting old.


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## EnterTheTao (Oct 1, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Right now Assad has to reoccupy 2/3 of his own country. This conflict is actually conventional, with frontlines and mass pitched battles with tanks and aircraft. If Assad were to somehow get past this phase and take over the country he'd deal with a Vietnam/Iraq-style insurgency that would rip the country apart again. This would go on for years and years and could easily become even bloodier than the current phase of fighting. And this fighting has already reduced the conventional Syrian military to basically nothing, it's a militia of Alawites, Iranians, and Shia foreign Jihadists such as Hezbollah and Mahdists.
> 
> This is why the conflict can't be solved militarily for Assad, he isn't even 10% there after 4 years and 250,000 dead.



(Amazingly) I agree with you, Mega. It's just like when we involve ourselves militarily in the region. It's just propaganda fodder for radicals to recruit more radicals. Kill ten and a hundred of their cousins hate you for it.



Bill G said:


> We spent $2 trillion, thousands of lives, wounded warriors all over. And Putin is now taking over what we started. And he is going into Syria and he frankly wants to fight ISIS and I think that is a wonderful thing! If he wants to fight ISIS, let him fight ISIS. Why do we always have to do everything? But he wants to go in and he wants to fight ISIS. He wants to keep, as you know the current leadership, Assad, in Syria. *Personally, I?ve been looking at different players and I?ve watching Assad and saying maybe he is better than the kind of people we are supposed to be backing, because we don?t even know who we are backing, we have no idea.*



Is this like, a literal non-paraphrased Trump quote? It sounds like him.


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## Bill G (Oct 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> take off the stupid hat



I'm too tired to come up with a witty retort to the sheer irony of this, so I'll just cut to the chase and call you a dumbass.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 1, 2015)

Bill G said:


> I'm too tired to come up with a witty retort to the sheer irony of this, so I'll just cut to the chase and call you a dumbass.


How am I a 'dumbass' when I saw through your act? You're not a Trump supporter, you're just mocking them by acting like him.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How am I a 'dumbass' when I saw through your act? You're not a Trump supporter, you're just mocking them by acting like him.


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## Saishin (Oct 1, 2015)

Dat Russia,telling to America to stay out of the way like a boss 



> *Russian general tells US diplomats: 'We launch Syria air strikes in one hour. Stay out of the way'*
> 
> Vladimir Putin orders airforce into action over Syria in first Russian war in Middle East since end of Soviet Union - giving US diplomats one hour's notice
> 
> ...


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## Chappz316 (Oct 1, 2015)

I'm really surprised anyone sees this as a civil war anymore.

It started because the West wants the Russian ally Assad out of power.  West creates rebels which morphed into ISIS.

West pretends some of the rebels are moderates and allow ISIS to exist to weaken assad and cling to the strategic goal of ousting assad. 

Russia bombs West assets "the moderate rebels"  to defend Assad. 

Not a single politician gives a shit about the loss of life in Syria, don't kid yourself. 

It's a strategic war between the West and Russia.


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## Yahiko (Oct 1, 2015)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> I don't. The guy is a horrible dictator.
> 
> He bombed his own people to stop protests agaisnt him.
> 
> ...


Haha me too, i cant understand whose side should i pick. Both assad and isis have committed crimes against humanity. Both of them have killed a lot of syrians but I also read somewhere that these airstrikes were done on those areas where isis aren't even present.  


SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why hasn't Punished Pathos been banned from the Cafe?


Although I disagree with Punished Pathos,  I wont say the same thing you are saying.   

Banning someone because they dont share the same opinion as yours. Thats some retarded logic you are using right there mate.


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## The Faceless Man (Oct 1, 2015)

Chappz316 said:


> I'm really surprised anyone sees this as a civil war anymore.
> 
> It started because the West wants the Russian ally Assad out of power.  West creates rebels which morphed into ISIS.
> 
> ...



Pretty much this. 
I don't know how can some posters be this dumb

Syria is losing innocent lifes and nobody gives a fuck


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## Zyrax (Oct 1, 2015)

The Faceless Man said:


> Pretty much this.
> I don't know how can some posters be this dumb
> *
> Syria is losing innocent lifes and nobody gives a fuck*


Because they aren't "Western"
The West Likes to pretent that it cares about non Western People, Anyone with a brian could tell that they are lying


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## Jin-E (Oct 1, 2015)

> Hundreds of Iranian troops have arrived in Syria in the last 10 days and will soon join government forces and their Lebanese Hezbollah allies in a major ground offensive backed by Russian air strikes, two Lebanese sources told Reuters on Thursday.
> 
> The two sources said the operation would be aimed at recapturing territory lost by President Bashar Assad's government to rebels.



So if these reports are true, then clearly the strikes will not be only defensive in nature.


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## Bender (Oct 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How am I a 'dumbass' when I saw through your act? You're not a Trump supporter, you're just mocking them by acting like him.



Dude, calm down...


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## Kafuka de Vil (Oct 1, 2015)

The Faceless Man said:


> Syria is losing innocent lifes and nobody gives a fuck





Zyrax Pasha said:


> Because they aren't "Western"
> The West Likes to pretent that it cares about non Western People, Anyone with a brian could tell that they are lying



Hey Zyrax.

Go fuck yourself Zyrax.

The West has grown disheartened with any further intervention in the Middle-East. It's a cesspool of backward putrid shit entangled in a cycle of religious and archaic violence and oppression. To call it Medieval would be insulting to the Middle Ages which by comparison are positively progressive.

Whenever the West bleeds for the ME they're ungrateful and worse, flippant towards us - and each other. And then shit blows up all over again. Look at Kuwait. The West liberates it from Iraq in the First Gulf War, and the Thanks: Kuwait funds terrorism and has refused to accept any refuges escaping Syria amongst other things.

It isn't because they're not "Western", or even because they're Muslim. The Middle-East is just primitive and dangerous. Any sympathy for them has long since dried up.


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## Rain (Oct 1, 2015)

MbS said:


> Hey Zyrax.
> 
> Go fuck yourself Zyrax.
> 
> ...



what is imperialism


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## Kafuka de Vil (Oct 1, 2015)

Rain said:


> what is imperialism



The Warsaw Pact, by any other name.


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## Megaharrison (Oct 1, 2015)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzOf9p08HK0[/YOUTUBE]

A Russian plane may have already been shot down by anti-Assad forces. This is clearly a Su-25 crashing. Syria does not operate Su-25's. Iran has a handful but have given some of them to Iraq, so it may be Iranian.

Russia or Iran lost something today and are probably going to cover it up, in any regard.


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## Amanda (Oct 1, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> Because they aren't "Western"
> The West Likes to pretent that it cares about non Western People, Anyone with a brian could tell that they are lying





Well if they wander into Europe and the industry gets the king idea of turning them into super cheap labor force, then yeah, we suddenly care (bonus points for numbing your Nazi/colonialist guilt)... as long as they make it here.  Row, row, row your boat...


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## The Faceless Man (Oct 1, 2015)

Amanda said:


> Well if they wander into Europe and the industry gets the king idea of turning them into super cheap labor force, then yeah, we suddenly care (bonus points for numbing your Nazi/colonialist guilt)... as long as they make it here.  Row, row, row your boat...



I thought of that to,  you could make them into mexicans of europe.
The problem is that most countrys are so afraid of taking muslisms, because some of them act bad 

Im sure that alot of people can work and be good if you offer them a place that doesn't suck.


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## Bill G (Oct 2, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How am I a 'dumbass' when I saw through your act? You're not a Trump supporter, you're just mocking them by acting like him.



I must be a dedicated troll, since I bought the $25 MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN hat.

And I'm not acting like him, I was literally quoting Trump's feelings on this event.


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## Rain (Oct 2, 2015)

MbS said:


> The Warsaw Pact, by any other name.



the notion that the West ever had interests in modernizing Middle East is laughable.While i oppose Russian imperialism, lets not kid ourselves. Just by the fact that Western powers are the most powerful capitalist nations, they require by far the most expansion.


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## Chelydra (Oct 2, 2015)

Saishin said:


> Dat Russia,telling to America to stay out of the way like a boss



And one already got shot down


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## Raiden (Oct 3, 2015)

Old planes that are poorly coordinating strikes. It's a dumb move, and Obama is right that it's out of weakness. Problem is we don't have much of a strategy either lol.


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## Sferr (Oct 3, 2015)

People still believe in "moderate" rebels? Or what do you mean by "moderate"? Those who do not take infidels into slavery, but just expel them from their homes and kill them only if they have a bad mood?


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## Rukia (Oct 3, 2015)

I'm really impressed.  And a few people I discussed this with during the week were also impressed.  Putin doesn't fuck around.


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## Mider T (Oct 3, 2015)

Rain said:


> the notion that the West ever had interests in modernizing Middle East is laughable.While i oppose Russian imperialism, lets not kid ourselves. Just by the fact that Western powers are the most powerful capitalist nations, they require by far the most expansion.



That butthurt.  

Why would the West want to keep any region in the world uncivilized?  It's bad for business.


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## Rain (Oct 4, 2015)

Mider T said:


> That butthurt.
> 
> Why would the West want to keep any region in the world uncivilized?  It's bad for business.



Why is it bad for business? It was never about whether or not a country is modern or not, it's about having control over ruling class in specific country which will allow Western companies free business aka mass exploitation of domestic resources and population. That's why you have good and bad dictators.Look how modern is the West's biggest ally in the region, Saudi Arabia. 35 years ago Afghanistan was a secular state before US started funding mujahedeens to overthrow it. That fact alone crushes all fantasies about the West wanting to modernize Middle-East.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Oct 4, 2015)

US was the main responsible for the entirity of South America being dictatorships during the Cold War.

It's not bad for business if your business partner is a shithole, as long as it's allied to the USA. See Saudi Arabia.


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## sworder (Oct 4, 2015)

just bomb the ME and get it over with

religion of PEACE

islam was a mistake


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## Raiden (Oct 4, 2015)

Rukia said:


> I'm really impressed.  And a few people I discussed this with during the week were also impressed.  Putin doesn't fuck around.



We'd probably do the same thing if people weren't so anti war atm. The sad thing is that number could just as easily change with time.


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## Jin-E (Oct 4, 2015)

Rukia said:


> I'm really impressed.  And a few people I discussed this with during the week were also impressed.  Putin doesn't fuck around.



He had little choice but to intervene in the matter because his guy had been getting curbstomped on the battlefield for months prior to this.


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## Son of Goku (Oct 4, 2015)

sworder said:


> just bomb the ME and get it over with
> 
> religion of PEACE
> 
> islam was a mistake



So was your birth, but you don't hear me calling for your execution.


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## Overwatch (Oct 4, 2015)

Ramzan Kadyrov has apparently asked Putin to "unleash" Chechen infantry so they can teach them terrorist youngins a thing or two about war crimes. Meanwhile, Turkey and the Gulf states are surely planning a counter-escalation as we speak. 

It's like all the gung-ho idiots on the planet minus North Korea are currently converging on one place.


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## hcheng02 (Oct 4, 2015)

From a realpolitik standpoint, the US is doing quite well. All the combatants in Syria are hostile to the US, and this conflict is burning resources for them. The neoconservatives calling for intervention are just fooling themselves that there are moderates to support when in reality all of them are dead, fled, or absorbed into extremist groups. Russia is only going to prolong the fight since Assad is not doing so well. Furthermore the US has always been complaining about the Europeans needing to pull their weight. If the US intervenes, its the US that pays most of the military costs. However, by staying out the coats fall on Europe to deal with Syria in the form of the refugees. Obama is actually doing the smart thing here.


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## OutlawJohn (Oct 4, 2015)

As an American, all I can do is watch political commentators around my country go "Har, har, Emperor Putin is a genius of war! Look, he will save Syria!" and shake my head in disappointment. This just further proves the point that Vladamir Putin is a man in getting further and further backed into a corner. There is absolutely no way this works out in any way for Russia.

1) Assad is doomed. Hezbollah could not save him. Iran could not save him. Russia hardly has military capacity to escalate this any further, so the idea that they could save a man who's lost two-thirds of his country and the support of the majority of the population is ridiculously wrong. As one person from the Pentagon was quoted as saying: "Knock yourself out."

2) If Vlad is hoping his intervention will allow him to leverage some power to get back to the table with the West, he's wrong. President Obama probably lol'd when he saw Russia was sending troops to Syria. Those sanctions aren't going away anytime soon Vlad, especially since you're clearly avoiding bombing ISIS.

3) Vlad's hoping that getting back to the table with the West will regain him the favor of political elites in Russia. Since he's unlikely to get back to the table with the West, he's not getting those political elites back. In fact, he may be pissed them off further by giving the West more reason to isolate Russia, since he is killing ISIL's enemies. Also, this is highly unpopular with Russian people. Vlad usually either gives up public support for elite support or vice versa. Now he is giving up both.

4) Vlad's put those soldiers in grave danger. Russian helicopters are known to literally fall from the sky at times. Good luck keeping that public popularity when soldiers die in a place with no ethnic Russians to speak of. Worse, he's possibly given the fighting moderate-jihadist-notquiteISIS fighters a reason to fight each other less, now that they have to deal with foreign "invasion" as well as ISIS and Assad.

5) The last time Russians stepped foot in the Middle East, it created the a call for global jihad. This man has fueled the flames of international jihad as no doubt thousands will leave Pakistan and Gulf countries in order to defend the homeland or something else. Rich Gulf states are going to pump billions more into the jihadists in order to get Russians out. No doubt Saudi Arabia is already calculating how to further escalate this madness.

But of course, if you hear United States Republicans tell the story, Russia has now become a world power and soon all our allies in the Middle East will want to be defended by Russia because Vladamir Putin will defend them riding on his bear and swinging his dick like a lightsaber.


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## Nemesis (Oct 4, 2015)

hcheng02 said:


> From a realpolitik standpoint, the US is doing quite well. All the combatants in Syria are hostile to the US, and this conflict is burning resources for them. The neoconservatives calling for intervention are just fooling themselves that there are moderates to support when in reality all of them are dead, fled, or absorbed into extremist groups. Russia is only going to prolong the fight since Assad is not doing so well. Furthermore the US has always been complaining about the Europeans needing to pull their weight. If the US intervenes, its the US that pays most of the military costs. However, by staying out the coats fall on Europe to deal with Syria in the form of the refugees. Obama is actually doing the smart thing here.



Not really the FSA was someone we could have supported and put in someone that would have been on our side.  The fact that some of them are dead, fled or absorbed was because of the west thumb twiddling while they were begging for help from us.

But firstly you had republicans blocking anything that Obama wanted including using military force against Assad.  The opposition in the UK, France was building up but backed out when the others did.  Leaving the group we could and should have supported to fend for themselves against both Assad and the FSA.


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## hcheng02 (Oct 5, 2015)

Nemesis said:


> Not really the FSA was someone we could have supported and put in someone that would have been on our side.  The fact that some of them are dead, fled or absorbed was because of the west thumb twiddling while they were begging for help from us.
> 
> But firstly you had republicans blocking anything that Obama wanted including using military force against Assad.  The opposition in the UK, France was building up but backed out when the others did.  Leaving the group we could and should have supported to fend for themselves against both Assad and the FSA.



If Obama wanted to use force in Syria he has plenty of leeway to do so. The problem is that the Syria opposition was always disorganized from the start. It was even more disorganized than the Libyans, and look at how they turned out. The conflict was an obvious quagmire and the West, especially the US which would by default do the bulk of the fighting, were smart to stay out. Now all the West's enemies are hurting each other with minimal cost to the West. Iran's rep as a defender of Muslims is in tatters. Nor will the West be morally culpable when the inevitable genocide of the losing side begins. The idea that Russia is pulling a fast one on the USA is laughable. You would think that America's example on needlessly starting a two front war would give Russia pause.


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## epyoncloud (Oct 6, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> I don't even need to post
> 
> 
> 
> ...



what about totalitarian saudi arabia 

who just bankrolling the ISIS with oil money, how are they less a scum than assad?


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## Megaharrison (Oct 6, 2015)

epyoncloud said:


> what about totalitarian saudi arabia
> 
> who just bankrolling the ISIS with oil money, how are they less a scum than assad?



Assad is the main financier of ISIS, he buys their oil.


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## Lucciola (Oct 6, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Assad is the main financier of ISIS, he buys their oil.




not really
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/26/isis-syria-turkey-us


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## The Faceless Man (Oct 6, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Assad is the main financier of ISIS, he buys their oil.



LOL no, they hate eatch other.


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## Son of Goku (Oct 6, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Assad is the main financier of ISIS, he buys their oil.


Your article:
?The Assad regime needs the oil, ISIS needs the cash and they?re willing to do business even as they?re fighting each other.?

Assad would even buy from Israel, if they sold him any.


Also, Assad sent troops to help the Kurds against the IS:

"A video released Tuesday by Islamic State militants purportedly shows the group fighting not only Kurdish militants in Kobane, but also forces loyal to President Bashar Assad, signaling the presence of an alliance between the Kurds and the Syrian military not seen in the entirety of the 3-year-old civil war."




Lucciola said:


> not really
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/26/isis-syria-turkey-us



"Black market oil quickly became the main driver of Isis revenues ? and Turkish buyers were its main clients."

Turkey on the other hand doesn't need to buy IS' oil. They actually do buy it to support the IS, against Assad and (maybe even more so) against the Kurds.


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## Mider T (Oct 6, 2015)

Rain said:


> Why is it bad for business? It was never about whether or not a country is modern or not, it's about having control over ruling class in specific country which will allow Western companies free business aka mass exploitation of domestic resources and population. That's why you have good and bad dictators.Look how modern is the West's biggest ally in the region, Saudi Arabia. 35 years ago Afghanistan was a secular state before US started funding mujahedeens to overthrow it. That fact alone crushes all fantasies about the West wanting to modernize Middle-East.



You're all over the place here.  A stable and prosperous control can and will not be controlled,  because they have the means to resist and option to take their business elsewhere.  Dictatorships just happen, that's a result of internal politics it sucks but if the country is rich then yes you can still do business with it.  And Mujahideen were funded to fight the Soviets since the Afghan army could not, how you got this wrong I don't want to know.  At that time the priority was containing communism at all costs.


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## Son of Goku (Oct 6, 2015)

Mider T said:


> You're all over the place here.  *A stable and prosperous control can and will not be controlled*,  because they have the means to resist and option to take their business elsewhere.







> *Dictatorships just happen, that's a result of internal politics it sucks* but if the country is rich then yes you can still do business with it.



Oh really?! How did it just happen in Iran 1953 or Chile 1973? And these are just the two most prominent cases, where the US decided that a dictatorship would be better for business than a democracy.

And this was already mentioned dozens of times. When will you ever learn?



> *And Mujahideen were funded to fight the Soviets since the Afghan army could not,* how you got this wrong I don't want to know.  At that time the priority was containing communism at all costs.



Hah, that's funny. And Iran funded insurgencies in Iraq to fight the US since the Iraqi army could not. At that time fighting US' influence in the region was their top priority.

Besides what did Rain get wrong? You did fund the mujahideen to overthrow a secular regime. Not unlike the current Syrian sitiuation, where it's US allies, one of them a NATO member, who do the funding of radical islamists.


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## Nemesis (Oct 6, 2015)

Mider T said:


> And Mujahideen were funded to fight the Soviets since the Afghan army could not, how you got this wrong I don't want to know.  At that time the priority was containing communism at all costs.



More like the Afghan army would not because the soviets were in Afghanistan from the invitation of the Afghan leadership. They were on the same side.


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## Megaharrison (Oct 6, 2015)

Nemesis said:


> More like the Afghan army would not because the soviets were in Afghanistan from the invitation of the Afghan leadership. They were on the same side.



"Invitation"

They assassinated the President of the country because there were rumors he was negotiating for a peace.


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## Son of Goku (Oct 6, 2015)

*Free Syrian Army a Phantom: Lavrov*



> *Free Syrian Army a Phantom: Lavrov
> 
> *
> *nsnbc : Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov responded to vague U.S. statements about the Free Syrian Army and ?moderate rebels? and that Russia may target moderates, saying that the Free Syrian Army is a phantom group. In depth investigations show that the Free Syrian Army largely ceased to exist in 2012 -13.*
> ...


----------



## Kaneda30 (Oct 7, 2015)

Obama will be remembered in history as one of the worst presidents when it comes to foreign policy.

First blocked by Russia in 2013, then abandoned the support towards Ukraine (if the US diplomacy knew they don't have Western Europe support why did they even try?), now being pushed aside by the Russian military in Syria.

I don't really care directly about the Syrian conflict, since both sides (Assad and the so called "moderates) don't represent good solutions for Syria, but from a realpolitik point of view Russia is winning and it will be interesting to see what long-term repercussions this will have on the relations with other US allies in the ME.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 7, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> Obama will be remembered in history as one of the worst presidents when it comes to foreign policy.
> 
> First blocked by Russia in 2013, then abandoned the support towards Ukraine (if the US diplomacy knew they don't have Western Europe support why did they even try?), now being pushed aside by the Russian military in Syria.
> 
> I don't really care directly about the Syrian conflict, since both sides (Assad and the so called "moderates) don't represent good solutions for Syria, but from a realpolitik point of view Russia is winning and it will be interesting to see what long-term repercussions this will have on the relations with other US allies in the ME.


Something tells me you don't know much about past foreign policy.


----------



## Kaneda30 (Oct 7, 2015)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Something tells me you don't know much about past foreign policy.



Well, instead of assumptions regarding my knowledge, you could always prove me wrong with arguments. I'll me more then happy to have a conversation and learn more on the subject.


----------



## Nemesis (Oct 7, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> Obama will be remembered in history as one of the worst presidents when it comes to foreign policy.
> 
> First blocked by Russia in 2013, then abandoned the support towards Ukraine (if the US diplomacy knew they don't have Western Europe support why did they even try?), now being pushed aside by the Russian military in Syria.
> 
> I don't really care directly about the Syrian conflict, since both sides (Assad and the so called "moderates) don't represent good solutions for Syria, but from a realpolitik point of view Russia is winning and it will be interesting to see what long-term repercussions this will have on the relations with other US allies in the ME.



More like how congress threw a fit and blocked any chance of action, it wasn't Russia.


----------



## Kaneda30 (Oct 7, 2015)

Obama could have intervened in Syria without going to Congress (on the basis of protecting ME allies and preventing a national security risk present through Assad's weapons). So he had motives to intervene, but he chose to legitimize his actions in front of Congress.

Long term this seems to have been the wrong choice.


----------



## Jin-E (Oct 7, 2015)

I'm curious about people who claim this is some sort of masterstroke of realpolitikk. How is a policy that makes US look weak and impotent, which alienates key allies and emboldens rivals/enemies and which robs it of any significant influence in post conflict Syria good realpolitkk?


----------



## Nemesis (Oct 7, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> Obama could have intervened in Syria without going to Congress (on the basis of protecting ME allies and preventing a national security risk present through Assad's weapons). So he had motives to intervene, but he chose to legitimize his actions in front of Congress.
> 
> Long term this seems to have been the wrong choice.



No he couldn't.  After Afghanistan and Iraq going into combat, a major one at that without congressional support would be absolute political suicide.  The Republicans would have torn him to shreds on the right and the anti war groups on the left would have done the same.


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 7, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> Obama will be remembered in history as one of the worst presidents when it comes to foreign policy.
> 
> First blocked by Russia in 2013,* then abandoned the support towards Ukraine* (if the US diplomacy knew they don't have Western Europe support why did they even try?), now being pushed aside by the Russian military in Syria.



What do you mean? You think he should've sent more than the rumored 500 blackwater fighters (in addition to the military training, equipment and money) and start a full blown proxy war with Russia? Severly allienating (most of) Europe and derailing the Iran-Nuclear talks? THAT would've been good foreign policy to you?


----------



## Kaneda30 (Oct 7, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> What do you mean? You think he should've sent more than the rumored 500 blackwater fighters (in addition to the military training, equipment and money) and start a full blown proxy war with Russia? Severly allienating (most of) Europe and derailing the Iran-Nuclear talks? THAT would've been good foreign policy to you?



No. He should have never been involved in Ukraine in the first place IF he knew that Western Europe isn't behind him. By insisting in the Ukraine matter without having any backing he ended up being humiliated by the Minsk agreements when Germany and France negotiated with Russia without implicating the US.

Nuland's "Fuck the EU" is representative for Obama's amateurish foreign police.


----------



## Kaneda30 (Oct 7, 2015)

Nemesis said:


> No he couldn't.  After Afghanistan and Iraq going into combat, a major one at that without congressional support would be absolute political suicide.  The Republicans would have torn him to shreds on the right and the anti war groups on the left would have done the same.



He chose to have stability on the internal political scene, but he lost big points in front of his ME allies, and now Russia is the active side in that part of the ME. Long term the US lost a lot with Obama's decision in 2013.

Now we must see what the Russians can do in Syria.


----------



## Zyrax (Oct 7, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> No. He should have never been involved in Ukraine in the first place IF he knew that Western Europe isn't behind him. By insisting in the Ukraine matter without having any backing he ended up being humiliated by the Minsk agreements when Germany and France negotiated with Russia without implicating the US.


Clinton signed a treaty to protect Ukraine if they gave up their nukes


----------



## Kaneda30 (Oct 7, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> Clinton signed a treaty to protect Ukraine if they gave up their nukes



You mean the Budapest memorandum? 

Look at what that protection implies:

"According to the memorandum, Russia, the U.S., and the UK confirmed, in recognition of Ukraine becoming party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and in effect abandoning its nuclear arsenal to Russia, that they would:

1) Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty and the existing borders.
2) Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.
3) Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.
4) *Seek immediate United Nations Security Council action* to provide assistance to Ukraine, "if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
5) Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.
6) *Consult with one another *if questions arise regarding these commitments."



So it's only consultation and no firm security or defense commitments.


----------



## Zyrax (Oct 7, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> You mean the Budapest memorandum?
> 
> Look at what that protection implies:
> 
> ...


Regardless if he didn't Do Anything about Ukraine the Repubs would have been yelling "WEAK" And "Dictator/Terrorist sympathier", Romney and Mccain wouldn't have reacted any differently except with more chest Beating, Mccain even said that he wouldn't Have sent troops but armed the Ukrainians and helped them(And Georgia and Moldova) get into the EU/NATO.


----------



## Kaneda30 (Oct 7, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> Regardless if he didn't Do Anything about Ukraine the Repubs would have been yelling "WEAK" And "Dictator/Terrorist sympathier", Romney and Mccain wouldn't have reacted any differently except with more chest Beating, Mccain even said that he wouldn't Have sent troops but armed the Ukrainians and helped them(And Georgia and Moldova) get into the EU/NATO.



Then again he should have ignored his opposition for the sake of US long term foreign policy(well better yet a good president would have negotiated with the opposition and make them come to an agreement regarding long term foreign policy).

In 2013 he should have acted more firmly because of his allies positions. Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Israel (though more reserved for obvious reasons) all wanted a direct US implication in Syria.

In 2014 he should have been more careful in his stance in Ukraine. Western Europe wanted a diplomatic position against Russia, but no more because Russia is an important economic partner to Germany, France or Italy. Since the US had no binding obligations towards Ukraine there was no point in escalating the conflict and Nuland's policy backfired badly with the Minsk agreements.

Moldova and Georgia cannot enter NATO without European support and that's not possible in the foreseeable future.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 7, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> Obama will be remembered in history as one of the worst presidents when it comes to foreign policy.
> 
> First blocked by Russia in 2013, then abandoned the support towards Ukraine (if the US diplomacy knew they don't have Western Europe support why did they even try?), now being pushed aside by the Russian military in Syria.
> 
> I don't really care directly about the Syrian conflict, since both sides (Assad and the so called "moderates) don't represent good solutions for Syria, but from a realpolitik point of view Russia is winning and it will be interesting to see what long-term repercussions this will have on the relations with other US allies in the ME.


Its almost like he was elected twice by a populace who no longer wants the US to be the world's policeman 

And its worth noting that Ukraine and Syria are of zero strategic interest to the US. If the US never did anything and Putin got back both of those vassals well hm, I guess we'd be in EXACTLY THE SAME POSITION WE WERE 4 YEARS AGO.

It really is no loss for us.

A more accurate reflection is Putin has lost 80% of Ukraine and 70% of Syria and is struggling to get them back. Meanwhile US isn't really doing shit because it doesn't have any reason to do shit. What is Ukraine and Syria to us? They have literally zero strategic value to 'Murrica


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 7, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> In 2013 he should have acted more firmly because of his allies positions. Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Israel (though more reserved for obvious reasons) all wanted a direct US implication in Syria.


Who gives a shit what they want?

They have armies and air forces.

If they actually cared about that they could have acted on their own.


----------



## Kaneda30 (Oct 7, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> Its almost like he was elected twice by a populace who no longer wants the US to be the world's policeman :whoa
> 
> And its worth noting that Ukraine and Syria are of zero strategic interest to the US.



Sometimes what the population wants is not good for the country long term. In foreign policy you have to make some choices that are sometimes not liked by the population. For example, Saudi Arabia is a country with one of the most horrible human rights records in the world, yet is an invaluable ally to the US and its interests must be protected.

To give some other examples do you think the Chinese love Kim Jong Un, or do you think Russia is so fond of Assad?

The situation in Syria is of strategic importance to Turkey, Israel and Saudi Arabia, so Obama's weakness in 2013 may have long term consequences.




Sunuvmann said:


> Who gives a shit what they want?
> 
> They have armies and air forces.
> 
> If they actually cared about that they could have acted on their own.



That's incredibly naive, thinking they can move without the US moving as well.
Losing the allies confidence is a big mistake...

At this point we'll have to see what Russia accomplishes. I admire the Russian diplomacy in these last 2 years. They managed the situation marvelously until now.


----------



## Zyrax (Oct 7, 2015)

Sunny is right that Russia lost more than what it won in Ukraine
I don't Understand why people act like Russia won that one when it simply gained Crimea but pushed Ukraine torward the West


----------



## Kaneda30 (Oct 7, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> Sunny is right that Russia lost more than what it won in Ukraine
> I don't Understand why people act like Russia won that one when it simply gained Crimea but pushed Ukraine torward the West



Absolutely. Russia came out weakened as well. Putin was caught by surprise by the Euromaidan and acted rashly with brute force thus losing a lot of international prestige.

However, the US shouldn't have pushed that much. Not without European support.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 7, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> Sometimes what the population wants is not good for the country long term. In foreign policy you have to make some choices that are sometimes not liked by the population. For example, Saudi Arabia is a country with one of the most horrible human rights records in the world, yet is an invaluable ally to the US and its interests must be protected.


Protected? Sure. Fight offensive wars for? Generally not how alliances work.

Now if ISIS launched an invasion? Sure. We'd have their back.



> To give some other examples do you think the Chinese love Kim Jong Un, or do you think Russia is so fond of Assad?
> 
> The situation in Syria is of strategic importance to Turkey, Israel and Saudi Arabia, so Obama's weakness in 2013 may have long term consequences.


What may be strategically important to them, particularly Turkey and Saudi's desire to spread Islamism, is actually pretty much completely against our interests.

And Israel is basically its own fortress. No conventional army is really of any threat to them. We could act to help them sure. But they don't exactly need it.

And in fact, Israel probably would have preferred Assad stayed in power.



> That's incredibly naive, thinking they can move without the US moving as well.
> Losing the allies confidence is a big mistake...


How so?

Saudis didn't exactly need our help to move on Bahrain or Yemen.

If the Arab states wanted to they could very easily 


> At this point we'll have to see what Russia accomplishes. I admire the Russian diplomacy in these last 2 years. They managed the situation marvelously until now.


Considering their economy is absolute shit and they probably will be bankrupt and are wasting valuable blood and treasure when they're facing a deadline for complete demographic collapse, it would almost be painful to watch if I wasn't busy laughing at Putin's 'empire' falling apart. Its a slow motion train wreck.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 7, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> Absolutely. Russia came out weakened as well. Putin was caught by surprise by the Euromaidan and acted rashly with brute force thus losing a lot of international prestige.
> 
> However, the US shouldn't have pushed that much. Not without European support.


Right. Because we don't actually have a reason to care.

OH NO! RUSSIA HAS REASSERTED DOMINANCE IN A SLIVER OF TERRITORY THEY LOST! GASP!

And as to the sanctions? Basically a "hey, we're doing something about it when we don't actually give a darn so it looks like we give a darn"


----------



## Zyrax (Oct 7, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> Right. Because we don't actually have a reason to care.
> 
> OH NO! RUSSIA HAS REASSERTED DOMINANCE IN A SLIVER OF TERRITORY THEY LOST! GASP!
> 
> And as to the sanctions? Basically a "hey, we're doing something about it when we don't actually give a darn so it looks like we give a darn"


Ironicly Russia did this To Hungary and Czechslovakia during the cold war and nobody gave a fuck because it was there "Sphere of Influence"
It seems to me that Repubs don't give a darn about Ukrainians and only care about Mocking Obama


----------



## Kaneda30 (Oct 7, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> Right. Because we don't actually have a reason to care.



Well we are on the same page here. There was no point for any escalation in Ukraine, just to irritate Russia.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 7, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> Well we are on the same page here. There was no point for any escalation in Ukraine, just to irritate Russia.


There really wasn't.

That in fact was on the media for making a big shit out of it (which they have done with ISIS as well) which made looking like we didn't give a shit not a politically viable position.


----------



## Kaneda30 (Oct 7, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> 1) Protected? Sure. Fight offensive wars for? Generally not how alliances work.
> 
> 
> What may be strategically important to them, particularly Turkey and Saudi's desire to spread Islamism, is actually pretty much completely against our interests.
> ...



1) The fact that there is a war right outside Turkish borders (with all the implications) is a matter of security. Turkey is swamped by refugees now. There needs to be a force that brings stability to the region. At this point in time maybe it will be Russia. I kind of doubt it but we'll see.

2) If the US intervened in 2013 when there was still a valid Syrian opposition then there might have been a chance foe  better regime change. Now, I completely agree that groups such as AL-Nusra, Mujahedeen and others would make things just as worse as Assad (whereas Assad killed suuni population, these terrorists would massacre the alawites).

3) Israel feels threatened because Assad is allied with Hezbollah. That why they are trying now to get guarantees from the Russians that this intervention won't strengthen Hezbollah.

4) Russia is not so weak as you try to paint it. Their mentality is different. They always had worse living conditions then Western countries but they have a strong Nationalistic pride. Putin is very high in the polls. They love having success in foreign policy, even though internally they suffer. It's different than in the West.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 7, 2015)

In reply:

1) Turkey has 315k soldiers in their army. If they wanted to use them, the US probably would agree to help with logistical and intel support.

2) Sure. I thought he should have then as well. But there was neither support domestically or internationally. The point is Obama (rightly) doesn't want the US to be seen as invading another middle east country. So the only way to viably do that is with international cover. Which just wasn't there.

3) Yeah but they pretty much made Assad their bitch. He knows not to try shit lest they bomb inside Syria again. And are mostly laughing at how this is basically Hezbollah's Vietnam. see: Megaharisson's posts

4) True. Putin will survive for now. But Russia is in a very dreadful situation. Besides low oil prices wrecking their economy and probably soon bankrupting the state, they have a rapidly aging population and soon won't have young people with which to actually serve in their army.



And that's including the non ethnic russians who are reproducing far more and will lead to probably more Chechen wars. The next 20 years are going to be really shitty for Russia.


----------



## Kaneda30 (Oct 7, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> 1) Turkey has 315k soldiers in their army. If they wanted to use them, the US probably would agree to help with logistical and intel support.



Well this solution is to be talked in past tense, since at the moment it's clearly impossible.

The problem with a Turkish intervention (besides the diplomatic one - opposition from from Russia) was that a sole Turkish intervention would have meant certain conditions from Erdogan.

Assad's downfall would had come along with a mistreatment of the Kurds. It is well known that Turkey preferred until recently to let ISIS kill the Kurds for them, before international pressure forced them to start bombing ISIS. This would have been a no-no for the Europeans who have a strained relation with Erdogan's Islamist leanings.

That's why an US intervention would have been best, even if it meant public outcry at home. It didn't had to be on the scale of Iraq. Just enough to make sure another Libya doesn't happen.


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 7, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> No. He should have never been involved in Ukraine in the first place IF he knew that Western Europe isn't behind him. By insisting in the Ukraine matter without having any backing he ended up being humiliated by the Minsk agreements when Germany and France negotiated with Russia without implicating the US.
> 
> Nuland's "Fuck the EU" is representative for Obama's amateurish foreign police.



I agree, Obama and his predessors shouldn't have tried to pull Ukraine towards the west and away from Russia, that was bound to tear the country apart. But that's just what they do and for the most part they succeded in Ukraine as well. Russia had to go to great lenghts to at least keep Crimea (and their Naval Base) out of the Western sphere of influence.

From an American nationalist point of view the whole Ukraine thing went quite well, at least for now. Ukraine is on the road to westernization and Russia was forced in to allienating its friends in Europe and is being sanctioned.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 7, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> I agree, Obama and his predessors shouldn't have tried to pull Ukraine towards the west and away from Russia, that was bound to tear the country apart. But that's just what they do and for the most part they succeded in Ukraine as well. Russia had to go to great lenghts to at least keep Crimea (and their Naval Base) out of the Western sphere of influence.
> 
> From an American nationalist point of view the whole Ukraine thing went quite well, at least for now. Ukraine is on the road to westernization and Russia was forced in to allienating its friends in Europe and is being sanctioned.


Please.

US's 'pulling ukraine to the west' amounted to a pat on the back of "Hey buddy, good for you!" each time they got rid of their Russian puppet president.

Because

US

Doesn't

Actually

Care

About

Ukraine


----------



## Deputy Myself (Oct 7, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> Because
> 
> US
> 
> ...



nonsense

the Ukraine has an efficient democracy, a rising economy aided by the near elimination of all corruption, and it's definately not filled with criminal gangs trafficking everything from drugs to people.

A model state for the region.

IMHO they should be integrated into the EU immediately. We totally want them.


----------



## Zyrax (Oct 7, 2015)

Deputy Myself said:


> nonsense
> 
> the Ukraine has an efficient democracy, a rising economy aided by the near elimination of all corruption, and it's definately not filled with criminal gangs trafficking everything from drugs to people.
> 
> ...


>Hohol
>Not Corrupt
[YOUTUBE]PCt01DM1IjU[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 7, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> Please.
> 
> US's 'pulling ukraine to the west' amounted to a pat on the back of "Hey buddy, good for you!" each time they got rid of their Russian puppet president.
> 
> ...



We've been over this and you're an idiot for thinking that. The US cares very much about (containing/weakening) Russia and Russia cares very much about ("keeping") Ukraine, thus... 

But if by not care, you mean the US don't need Ukraine in order to stay a superpower, well yes, your right. But I hope I don't have to explain to you the difference between necessity and desire?!


----------



## Kaneda30 (Oct 7, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> I agree, Obama and his predessors shouldn't have tried to pull Ukraine towards the west and away from Russia, that was bound to tear the country apart. But that's just what they do and for the most part they succeded in Ukraine as well. Russia had to go to great lenghts to at least keep Crimea (and their Naval Base) out of the Western sphere of influence.



To be fair Western Ukraine *wants* to be a part of the EU and NATO. Some things like the Holodomor can't be forgiven. 

It's just that the US shouldn't try to push the matter unless its European allies want to accept Ukraine. The fact is Russia is still a very important economic partner for many European countries. Europe wanted Russia punished for its action in Crimea, but not too punished.


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 7, 2015)

Deputy Myself said:


> nonsense
> 
> the Ukraine has an efficient democracy, a rising economy aided by the near elimination of all corruption, and it's definately not filled with criminal gangs trafficking everything from drugs to people.
> 
> ...



So, what, you saying the US would leave countries alone as long as their corrupt, bankrupt and undemocratic?

I don't think you thought that one through.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 7, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> We've been over this and you're an idiot for thinking that. The US cares very much about (containing/weakening) Russia and Russia cares very much about ("keeping") Ukraine, thus...
> 
> But if by not care, you mean the US don't need Ukraine in order to stay a superpower, well yes, your right. But I hope I don't have to explain to you the difference between necessity and desire?!


Its a case of "It'd be nice". Like if you were a company and you could peel off a client from a firm you don't really like, that's nice. But if said client isn't really worth much to you, you aren't going to put much effort in doing so.

This is evidenced by the fact we didn't really give a shit when the Orange Revolution failed.

But on the whole the US doesn't even really care about Russia. Nor do they want to. The only reason Russia is still relevant is because Putin shitting all over the place while the country is in its death throws. Propping up dictators, selling arms to Iranians, and threatening Baltic states.

Those nuisances put them back on the radar when really we'd rather pay much more attention towards China and the Pacific.


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 7, 2015)

^ uhuh...



> *Ukraine crisis is about Great Power oil, gas pipeline rivalry*
> *
> Resource scarcity, competition to dominate Eurasian energy corridors, are behind Russian militarism and US interference
> *
> ...



No it didn't.


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 7, 2015)

> *Iraq leans toward Russia in war on Islamic State
> *
> _Wed Oct 7, 2015 10:22am EDT_
> _By Ahmed Rasheed and Saif Hameed
> ...


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/07/mideast-crisis-iraq-russia-idUSL8N12728A20151007


----------



## hcheng02 (Oct 7, 2015)

Jin-E said:


> I'm curious about people who claim this is some sort of masterstroke of realpolitikk. How is a policy that makes US look weak and impotent, which alienates key allies and emboldens rivals/enemies and which robs it of any significant influence in post conflict Syria good realpolitkk?



You have to look at the larger picture. The US interests in the Middle East are: protect oil supply, keep trade routes open, prevent terrorists from attacking the USA, protect allies that support the US. Syria was provided none of those things. Syria does not have oil - unlike say Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, or the Gulf states. It has no major trade routes like say Egypt's Suez Canal.  It was never a US ally - like say Jordan - and was always under Russian influence. While it would be nice if Syria did turn our way, its hardly a vital foreign policy issue. The US has gotten along fine for decades without Syria, and it can continue to do so as before. Nor has the Syrian conflict threatened to cut the West off from its oil supply or significant trade routes. 

The USA's allies in the Middle East are still dependent as ever on US military and money to support their regimes. Furthermore, interjecting ourselves into sectarian free for alls hardly guarantees the US future influence. Just look at the brief attempt for the US to enter the Lebanon civil war to see how that worked out. Or Libya for a more recent example. 

All the combatants in Syria's civil war right now are hostile to the US, whether its Hezbollah and Iran, Russia, or ISIS and various Sunni extremists. Having them all fight each other has them focus away from the US and burn money and blood while the US conserves its own. Russia's situation is hardly ideal. Only a few years ago, it was flush with oil money, had all of Syria in its pocket, and Ukraine was willing to team up with them. Now the oil market has crashed along with the Russian economy and they are fighting a two front war with Ukraine and Syria without the logistical resources of the US military. The rest of Ukraine that isn't Crimea are definitely opposed to Russia now, and Assad can barely hold onto a third of his country. And the fact that its basically a Muslim civil war basically throttles the appeal of a Muslim caliphate to the rest of the world. The Arab world isn't going to believe that Iran is a noble defender of the Muslim cause against the infidel West and USA when its killing Sunni Muslims by the thousands. Whereas if the US had stepped in it would be more grist for the narrative of the US being some anti-Muslim colonialist. 

The greatest cost that the West bares for this conflict is the refugee crisis and even then the US comes out on top. The Atlantic Ocean basically prevents the refugees from coming to the US and offloads them to the Europeans instead. Whereas if the US had stepped in to fight it would be bearing the burden of the costs since the US military by virtue of its strength and size.

I will say that Russia has an advantage over the US or the West when fighting these Islamist extremists though, and its that the media does not give a shit about any atrocities that the Russians might commit. I highly doubt that there would be a media firestorm if Russia blows up some school or hospital because that's just how Russia rolls and everyone accepts that. Most media members are trained by their liberal education  to only care about these things if the West does them and the rare journalist that steps out of line would be killed by Russian assassins. Russia has the moral leeway to do the necessary anti-guerilla actions like destroying all civilians that aid their enemies and controlling the media via force which the West does not get. We'll see if that will be enough this time.


----------



## epyoncloud (Oct 8, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> Its a case of "It'd be nice". Like if you were a company and you could peel off a client from a firm you don't really like, that's nice. But if said client isn't really worth much to you, you aren't going to put much effort in doing so.
> 
> This is evidenced by the fact we didn't really give a shit when the Orange Revolution failed.
> 
> ...



LMAO what if russia invade europe, will you still care about the eurotards or china containment, 

Being white nation you are not going to leave your allies defend themselves right.

China containment is a joke if you cant deal with russian aggression, europe always come first.


----------



## dr_shadow (Oct 8, 2015)

[YOUTUBE]lDQ7hXMLxGc[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## The Faceless Man (Oct 8, 2015)

mr_shadow said:


> [YOUTUBE]lDQ7hXMLxGc[/YOUTUBE]



bith please, its more like his.

[YOUTUBE]WBOD8qeCBuc[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Zyrax (Oct 8, 2015)

[YOUTUBE]U-EQJA8Ahac[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Stelios (Oct 8, 2015)

Muthah russia 

Putin has made in 5 days more than Obama did for a year in the war against Isis.
Now Turkey and NATO warn about air space violations  
Putin just put US in shame for that matter


----------



## Undertaker (Oct 8, 2015)

Deputy Myself said:


> the Ukraine has an efficient democracy, a rising economy aided by the near elimination of all corruption, and it's definately not filled with criminal gangs trafficking everything from drugs to people.







Deputy Myself said:


> A model state for the region.



They want to take money from everybody (Russia, EU, USA, etc.) and don`t do shit. And yes it`s a model state for all the countries in-between.


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 8, 2015)

> *Syrian forces begin ground offensive backed by Russia air and sea power*
> 
> By Andrew Roth and Erin Cunningham October 7 at 6:49 PM
> 
> ...


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 8, 2015)

Lol, I get so confused when people go on and on about Russia? Conservative Americans blather on and on about how President Obama is being embarrassed. He's just following the major tenant of his foreign policy strategy: "Don't do stupid shit".

Intervening in Syria, at any point in this conflict, qualifies as stupid shit. Syria offers nothing to the United States; it is neither economically, nor geographically, nor culturally important.

Should we have intervened in the earlier stages of the war? In hindsight it could have saved thousands of all lives, but at the time, why the fuck would we? Syria has always been in the Russian sphere of influence and we gained nothing from antagonizing the Russians by doing any more than giving the Syrian rebels a few words of encouragement.

Should we intervene now? Fuck no. It's even less appealing than before. Let Iran, Hezbollah and Russia lose troops and resources in that Black Hole. It's a war that they cannot win. No matter how much Assad is propped up, he has lost the war. There is no saving him. Russia is probably in less of a position to save Assad than Iran and Hezbollah are. If they failed, even though they committed thousands of ground troops, his airstrikes in a country already being bombed by twelve different nations aren't going to make a difference.

Assad and Russia's only hope is deteriorate the opposition enough where the west begins to see the conflict as "Assad vs ISIS" or "Assad vs the Barbarians" as one pundit said. But that won't happen. Drawing Russia into the conflict is going give this entire thing a religious angle. While the young jihadi around the world is certainly attracted ISIS, I can't imagine there's anything more attractive than defending a Muslim land from a Christian "empire".

I think a lot of people are right when they said President Obama was caught off guard. He was caught off guard by how fucking stupid it was for Russia to get involved.


----------



## Zyrax (Oct 8, 2015)

Most of the American  who are obsessed with Russia are Butthurt Trotskyists


----------



## Stelios (Oct 8, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> Lol, I get so confused when people go on and on about Russia? Conservative Americans blather on and on about how President Obama is being embarrassed. He's just following the major tenant of his foreign policy strategy: "Don't do stupid shit".
> 
> Intervening in Syria, at any point in this conflict, qualifies as stupid shit. Syria offers nothing to the United States; it is neither economically, nor geographically, nor culturally important.
> 
> ...






Wow, that's a tough one.  Let's see.  Anyone could watch  syrian rebels firing tens of TOW missiles on syrian tanks yesterday.Missiles not sold in Walmart Damascus but given by the US (or proxies).This means MASSIVE SUPPORT. Anyone could also watch ISIS trying to attack a base in Deir Ezzor yesterday,with tanks,mortars,and artillery...Not one US drone,not one US jet attacked them. Anyone can also read the reports about ISIS in Iraq,attacking Diyala province again,Bassorah and Baghdad. How did the goal evolve from "destroy" in the start of the year in to "squeeze" ? 

 Putin just went to UN and said you want to fix Syria? Fine. Do it by the standards of international law by supporting the elected legitimate government and not the other way around. The panx Americana is over.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 8, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Wow, that's a tough one.  Let's see.  Anyone could watch  syrian rebels firing tens of TOW missiles on syrian tanks yesterday.Missiles not sold in Walmart Damascus but given by the US (or proxies).This means MASSIVE SUPPORT. Anyone could also watch ISIS trying to attack a base in Deir Ezzor yesterday,with tanks,mortars,and artillery...Not one US drone,not one US jet attacked them. Anyone can also read the reports about ISIS in Iraq,attacking Diyala province again,Bassorah and Baghdad. How did the goal evolve from "destroy" in the start of the year in to "squeeze" ?
> 
> Putin just went to UN and said you want to fix Syria? Fine. Do it by the standards of international law by supporting the elected legitimate government and not the other way around. The panx Americana is over.



I'm not quite sure what in my post you were responding to. But ... if you're implying that the US is somehow aiding and abetting ISIS then the answer is just no. My point was simply that people who are claiming that Russia is "winning" by intervening in Syria, are wrong. Putin is further tightening the noose around the neck of his rule.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 8, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> I'm not quite sure what in my post you were responding to. But ... if you're implying that the US is somehow aiding and abetting ISIS then the answer is just no. My point was simply that people who are claiming that Russia is "winning" by intervening in Syria, are wrong. Putin is further tightening the noose around the neck of his rule.



Americans and top analysts that say that Obama lost face are totally right. What I wrote in my post is a result from USA's foreign policy in ME that until now has been a complete failure. Didn't President Barack Obama pledged to “degrade and ultimately destroy” the Islamist militants? Yet a year later and after spending half a billion dollars and managing to train a handfull of Syrian soldiers (lol 6?) then they decided to squeeze Isis by cutting off some of its supplies? That's some major bullshit there. The fact that all these bullshit were called out combined with its inactivity is , yes , a disgrace for Obama administration when it comes to US foreign policy. 

His don't do stupid shit foreign policy 
Wasn't bombing Libya also some stupid shit?
Libya is still in civil war in case you forgot.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 8, 2015)

> *Russian missiles 'fell on Iran'*
> 
> Four Russian cruise missiles fired at Syria from the Caspian Sea landed on Iran, unnamed US officials say.
> 
> ...


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34479873


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## Stelios (Oct 8, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34479873



Russia just made Israel very happy


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 8, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Americans and top analysts that say that Obama lost face are totally right. What I wrote in my post is a result from USA's foreign policy in ME that until now has been a complete failure. Didn't President Barack Obama pledged to ?degrade and ultimately destroy? the Islamist militants? Yet a year later and after spending half a billion dollars and managing to train a handfull of Syrian soldiers (lol 6?) then they decided to squeeze Isis by cutting off some of its supplies? That's some major bullshit there. The fact that all these bullshit were called out combined with its inactivity is , yes , a disgrace for Obama administration when it comes to US foreign policy.
> 
> His don't do stupid shit foreign policy
> Wasn't bombing Libya also some stupid shit?
> Libya is still in civil war in case you forgot.



Lol, except none that has anything to do with what I was talking about. You're absolutely missing the point of my post. Did President Obama fail in Libya? Absolutely. Did he make a mistake by pulling out of Iraq so early? Absolutely.

Did he make a mistake by keeping the US out of the shitstorm that is Syria? Absolutely fucking not. Russia involving itself in Syria means nothing to us.

1st) They can't change the fundamental status of the war on the ground. Russia has neither the capability nor the will to commit the kind of troops and resources needed in order for Assad to actually regain control.

2nd) Everyone fighting in Syria is a US enemy. We have no reason to get involved and Russia getting in helps us more than it hurts us. Russian actions in Syria will become a lightning rod for the Gulf Arab nations. They're gonna pump so much money and jihadists that Vlad will eventually have to leave in shame.

3rd) Explain how this is embarrassing? ISIS has lost major ground in Iraq and will never advance again.


----------



## Deputy Myself (Oct 8, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34479873



If this is real and not some bullshit western propaganda, then we can thank the heavens they didn't 'accidentally' hit Turkey because that would have escalated instantly.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 8, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> Lol, except none that has anything to do with what I was talking about. You're absolutely missing the point of my post. Did President Obama fail in Libya? Absolutely. Did he make a mistake by pulling out of Iraq so early? Absolutely.
> 
> Did he make a mistake by keeping the US out of the shitstorm that is Syria? Absolutely fucking not. Russia involving itself in Syria means nothing to us.
> 
> ...



Pentagon's half billion program is not involved enough for you ? Which faced humiliation two times a) when members of the first group were kidnapped in July by Jabhat al-Nusra, the al-Qaeda affiliate in Syria  and b ) when the second group last month handed over one quarter of their US-supplied weapons to Nusra to secure safe passage. Guess who's using those weapons against the legitimate government of Syria  

 I understand your notion as a citizen by saying yeah we don't care we have no interest from Syria (their oil is running out anyway ha!) but dude you are involved in this shit. And instead of sorting it out someone else is doing that for you. And what's worst they are supporting the man CIA operated to overthrow  American warhawks are not happy and they have all the right to do so.


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## Sunuvmann (Oct 8, 2015)

Deputy Myself said:


> If this is real and not some bullshit western propaganda, then we can thank the heavens they didn't 'accidentally' hit Turkey because that would have escalated instantly.


----------



## Megaharrison (Oct 8, 2015)

>Russian cruise missiles start hitting Iran

Hilarious as fuck. subsonic cruise missiles are one of the most easily guided things in modern warfare and even they can't do it right.


----------



## Joakim3 (Oct 8, 2015)

Lmao honestly at this point the middle east is a fucking fuck bowl it's beyond saving


----------



## Stelios (Oct 8, 2015)

the accurate route
[YOUTUBE]G2TQ0wAfRts[/YOUTUBE]

What remains to be seen is Iran's response. The rest are popcorn material


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 8, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Pentagon's half billion program is not involved enough for you ? Which faced humiliation two times a) when members of the first group were kidnapped in July by Jabhat al-Nusra, the al-Qaeda affiliate in Syria  and b ) when the second group last month handed over one quarter of their US-supplied weapons to Nusra to secure safe passage. Guess who's using those weapons against the legitimate government of Syria
> 
> I understand your notion as a citizen by saying yeah we don't care we have no interest from Syria (their oil is running out anyway ha!) but dude you are involved in this shit. And instead of sorting it out someone else is doing that for you. And what's worst they are supporting the man CIA operated to overthrow  American warhawks are not happy and they have all the right to do so.



Except Syria's government is not fucking legitimate, by any sense of the word. And that half a billion dollars wasted goes exactly to my point; stay the fuck out away from Syria. The only positive thing that could have ever come from Syria is saving Syrian civilians from hell, but its too late for that. Let that shit burn and tear down all affiliated parties.

Also, you're totally misguided to think that Russia is sorting out Syria. They're making it worse, far worse. Their only goal is to prop up Assad. Its the only thing they can do, since winning the civil war is impossible.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 8, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> Except Syria's government is not fucking legitimate, by any sense of the word. And that half a billion dollars wasted goes exactly to my point; stay the fuck out away from Syria. The only positive thing that could have ever come from Syria is saving Syrian civilians from hell, but its too late for that. Let that shit burn and tear down all affiliated parties.
> 
> Also, you're totally misguided to think that Russia is sorting out Syria. They're making it worse, far worse. Their only goal is to prop up Assad. Its the only thing they can do, since winning the civil war is impossible.



But if you are not backing up the recognized by the UN government of the country aren't you directly supporting the "moderate" Islamists that work with al-Qaeda?  Isn't the opposition fighting with US weapons vs Assad?


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## Megaharrison (Oct 8, 2015)

Putin confirmed JIDF slave.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 8, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Putin confirmed JIDF slave.


Actually mildly brilliant.

Give a bit of zionist flavoring to the conflict, further rustle the sunni's jimmies, and lo, Hezbollah and Iran's quagmire deepens.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 8, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Putin confirmed JIDF slave.




What a spectacular turn of events. This is brilliant.
Conclusion: "You shouldn't have signed with Iran USA!"


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 8, 2015)

Stelios said:


> But if you are not backing up the recognized by the UN government of the country aren't you directly supporting the "moderate" Islamists that work with al-Qaeda?  Isn't the opposition fighting with US weapons vs Assad?



UN support doesn't make a nation. Assad's government is not legitimate because a majority of the population has made it clear they'd like to see him out. He's never going to be able to hold Syria peacefully again.

The opposition is fighting with all sorts of weapons; USA, Pakistani and a whole plethora of places. Me thinking Assad is illegitimate =/= me thinking Jabhat al Nusra should be running Syria. Which all comes back to the original point I was making:

For the United States, there is no winning or losing in Syria. There is no possible outcome of this war that is positive for the US. But, what's happening is not really negative for us. We lose nothing by letting Russia needlessly waste lives and resources in Syria. Intervening in Syria is not a "genius move by Putin that embarrasses the United States" as conservatives have called it. It's just  a plain stupid move.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 8, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> UN support doesn't make a nation. Assad's government is not legitimate because a majority of the population has made it clear they'd like to see him out. He's never going to be able to hold Syria peacefully again.
> 
> The opposition is fighting with all sorts of weapons; USA, Pakistani and a whole plethora of places. Me thinking Assad is illegitimate =/= me thinking Jabhat al Nusra should be running Syria. Which all comes back to the original point I was making:
> 
> For the United States, there is no winning or losing in Syria. There is no possible outcome of this war that is positive for the US. But, what's happening is not really negative for us. We lose nothing by letting Russia needlessly waste lives and resources in Syria. Intervening in Syria is not a "genius move by Putin that embarrasses the United States" as conservatives have called it. It's just  a plain stupid move.



Your post is the epitome of oxymoron. You guys have placed your finger inside the jar , made a mess and now want to just whistle like there's no positive outcome for the US. In the global political chessboard this is, at least, embarrassing.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Oct 8, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> Please.
> 
> US's 'pulling ukraine to the west' amounted to a pat on the back of "Hey buddy, good for you!" each time they got rid of their Russian puppet president.
> 
> ...



George Soros cared about Ukraine


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 8, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Your post is the epitome of oxymoron. You guys have placed your finger inside the jar , made a mess and now want to just whistle like there's no positive outcome for the US. In the global political chessboard this is, at least, embarrassing.



Lol, so you're saying the US made Syria a mess?

Please, do explain.


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## Stelios (Oct 8, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> Lol, so you're saying the US made Syria a mess?
> 
> Please, do explain.








Cba to talk with you more. 
You need to read a bit more about your affairs


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## Punished Pathos (Oct 8, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Cba to talk with you more.
> You need to read a bit more about your affairs



US didn't make Syria bad 

US is completely in the right here, and I'm American 

Don't you see that we have to involve ourselves in other countries' affairs via accusing a country's leader (Assad) of a chemical attack

Lets just sit back and watch good ole America punish the dictator.
Who knows, we might make a Gaddafi out of Assad and then watch the attention shift to another "dictator" and magically have another AL-ISIS group destablize another M.E region and send the civilians into European countries and not SA


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## OutlawJohn (Oct 8, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Cba to talk with you more.
> You need to read a bit more about your affairs



Ok. I will give you a brief history of the madness in Syria just so you can realize how the United States is not at fault here and has done a good job of staying the fuck away.

March 2011: The Deraa protests happen. These are peaceful protests that came about because of the successful uprising in Egypt and Tunisia. There are in no way made to happen by the CIA or whatever other conspiracy bullshit you have up your sleeve. Why? Because the United States has no foreign policy interests in Syria. Zero. Assad responds to these peaceful protests by indiscriminately killing civilians.

July 2011: Free Syrian Army is founded. Because, you know, people don't like to be indiscriminately slaughtered in the streets.

August 2011: Iraq fighters show up in Syria. These fighters eventually become ISIS and Jabhat al  Nusra. More on that later.

October 2011: Russia kills any chance of ending the conflict early by vetoing a UN Security Council Resolution that would have condemned Assad. The United States had no viable way to intervene after this, seeing as we just finished a decade long unpopular without UN consent and no one was happy. Meanwhile, Assad continues to kill civilains with the over billion dollars in weapons that Russia had provided him.

January 2012: Jabhat al Nusra is formed. A large chunk of the people in their ranks are former prisoners released by Assad. He released them because his strategy since the beginning has been to radicalize the opposition and keep the United States from interfering. Thus far, this has worked perfectly for him.

August 2012: Assad starts using barrel bombs, making the civilian causalities in Syria fucking skyrocket. Somewhere around this time, Iran sends Hezbollah into Syria in hopes of propping up Assad because he was already losing serious ground to Nusra and the FSA.

March 2013: Arab league starts officially arming rebels. Mind you, they had been officially arming and funding rebels since the beginning of the conflict. This caused more chaos though, because different Arab countries funded different Arab groups. A lot of this money ended up in the hands of ISIS.

April 2013: ISIS is born and immediately starts fighting with al Nusra but never fighting Assad. Al Nusra and the other rebel factions could have ended ISIS had it not been for Assad, who spent a significant amount of effort avoiding fighting ISIS and even buying their oil in order to bank roll them. Again, this is part of his continued strategy to radicalize the opposition.

September 2014: The US begins airstrikes against ISIS.

February 2015: Kurds begin making major advance in the Syrian north, mostly due to support from US air force.

October 2015: Russia foolishly enters the Black Hole.

The fact of the matter is that the US had very little to do with the formation of this crisis. If anything, Russia is at fault for this mess for revoking the UN Security Resolution that could have forced some international action on the matter.

Also, what the fuck does this have to do my original point? My point was that Russia is doing nothing of consequence by jumping into this conflict. Syria is a massive quagmire and it's really an unfortunate situation.

The US has trained some people to go fight ISIS, but the recruiting program is horrible because Syrians don't trust the United States since it failed to help them (though it never made any promises to do so). We can't crush Assad, because we don't want Jabhat al Nusra in charge of Syria and its likely still exiting cache of chemical weapons. We can't crush Nusra because they have been far and away the most effective at fighting Assad.

The best thing the US can do is keep the fuck out. Or better yet, take global leadership in dealing with the massive refugee crisis this has caused.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 8, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> Ok. I will give you a brief history of the madness in Syria just so you can realize how* the United States is not at fault here and has done a good job of staying the fuck away.*




sorry man but you start with this paragraph and I can't take you seriously


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## Stelios (Oct 8, 2015)

And you also talk from 2011 and after while you have a part in this since 2002.

you know what it's ok. Keep living the dream


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 8, 2015)

Stelios said:


> sorry man but you start with this paragraph and I can't take you seriously




Lol.

Code language for: "I have no idea what I'm talking about and you wrote too much for me to read". You might be the worst debater I've ever come across in these forums. At least provide some knowledge or some substance for me. Goodness, you're boring. If you can't disprove a man, at least give him something to think about. Or at least something to laugh about.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 8, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> Lol.
> 
> Code language for: "I have no idea what I'm talking about and you wrote too much for me to read". You might be the worst debater I've ever come across in these forums. At least provide some knowledge or some substance for me. Goodness, you're boring. If you can't disprove a man, at least give him something to think about. Or at least something to laugh about.



I've read everything you wrote and what you wrote indicates that you didn't read any of the links I provided. Thus why bother with you more?


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## Son of Goku (Oct 9, 2015)

Nice drawing skills Sun. Just no real point in it since we already got the real 'picture'.




Or do you actually believe that Azerbaijan, Armenia AND Turkey wouldn't protest if Russia flew missiles right over their heads?


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## Stelios (Oct 9, 2015)

I have yet to see Iran making any statement about this 
Anyone mentioned that Iran actually agreed for Russia to use their airspace anyway?


----------



## Sferr (Oct 9, 2015)

Stelios said:


> I have yet to see Iran making any statement about this


Both Russia and  denied this.

But it's very plausible that they did fall in Iran. It was the first true opportunity for Russia to test those rockets, so a couple of failures should have been expected. Although an "unnamed official" is not a credible source at all to claim that they did.



Stelios said:


> Anyone mentioned that Iran actually agreed for Russia to use their airspace anyway?


Of course Iran agreed on that.


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## Megaharrison (Oct 9, 2015)

Despite the Russian airstrikes ISIS has gained ground over the last 10 days and is now moving on Aleppo. They also killed an Iranian general



I kek'd


----------



## Lucaniel (Oct 9, 2015)

mega

why is isis so stronk


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## Megaharrison (Oct 9, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> mega
> 
> why is isis so stronk



It's mostly that Syria/Iranians/Hezbollah/Kurds/Iraqi's are shit, and airstrikes without ground followups by competent soldiers aren't going to do much.

That being said ISIS does fight unusually well. Chalk it up to good morale and discipline.


----------



## Zyrax (Oct 9, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> mega
> 
> why is isis so stronk


guerrilla militias are a lot harder to beat than regular Armies


----------



## Megaharrison (Oct 9, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> guerrilla militias are a lot harder to beat than regular Armies



The thing with Isis is they're not yet a guerrilla army. They fight conventional, have front lines, etc.. If they were to lose their territory they'd go guerrilla, and then the real righ would begin.


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## Sunuvmann (Oct 9, 2015)

I wonder why Russia/Iran hasn't left Raqqa a smoldering ruin yet.

Both have fighters/bombers capable of such and neither really has a history of shying away from civilian casualties.


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## Stelios (Oct 9, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> I wonder why Russia/Iran hasn't left Raqqa a smoldering ruin yet.
> 
> Both have fighters/bombers capable of such and neither really has a history of shying away from civilian casualties.



pretexts. keeping them. for how long i don't know


----------



## Sferr (Oct 9, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Despite the Russian airstrikes ISIS has gained ground over the last 10 days and is now moving on Aleppo. They also killed an Iranian general
> 
> 
> 
> I kek'd



ISIS took territories from the rebels. Russia usually bombs specifically so that Syrian army could advance forward, so ISIS near Aleppo, where Syrian army is not advancing was not yet touched.



Sunuvmann said:


> I wonder why Russia/Iran hasn't left Raqqa a smoldering ruin yet.
> 
> Both have fighters/bombers capable of such and neither really has a history of shying away from civilian casualties.



Russia posts the videos of bombing on its Youtube channel in full HD. That means that they are concerned about public opinion and won't just bomb civilians.


----------



## Deer Lord (Oct 9, 2015)

Its pretty clear by now the russians are just using syria as one giant target practice field.
assad gaining from this is just bonus points.


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 9, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> I wonder why Russia/Iran hasn't left Raqqa a smoldering ruin yet.
> 
> Both have fighters/bombers capable of such and neither really has a history of shying away from civilian casualties.



Both Russia and Iran like to claim the moral high ground against the US (I know, crazy right?!) so they'll try their best to not outdo the US in terms of civilian casualties.


----------



## Megaharrison (Oct 9, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Both Russia and Iran like to claim the moral high ground against the US (I know, crazy right?!) so they'll try their best to not outdo the US in terms of civilian casualties.



Assad has massively. Hes killed well over 150,000.

Too late. Though I'm sure you'll rationalize this staggering figure (more in 4 years than Israel has killed in its *entire history*) despite crying about rubber bullets and tear gas in the next post.


----------



## Chainwave (Oct 9, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> I wonder why Russia/Iran hasn't left Raqqa a smoldering ruin yet.
> 
> Both have fighters/bombers capable of such and neither really has a history of shying away from civilian casualties.



Nobody has a history with avoiding civilian casualties, especially Americans. Russia restrained itself from leveling Grozny, although just barely. It's actually pretty interesting, back in the day, you Americans and Europeans were pretty sympathetic with Chechens, it only took two brothers and a pressure cooker to completely erase that sympathy. 

But the whole intervention in Syria thing, isn't sitting well with most Russian citizens anyway, so an atrocity on a scale that you described wouldn't exactly serve Putin's interests.


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 10, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Assad has massively. Hes killed well over 150,000.


 So? The US isn't very choosy with its allies either and just like Russia and Iran they don't feel responsible for their allies actions.



> Too late. Though I'm sure you'll rationalize this staggering figure (more in 4 years than Israel has killed in its *entire history*) despite crying about rubber bullets and tear gas in the next post.



You're better than Assad, you deserve a cookie. 






Lucaniel said:


> mega
> 
> why is isis so stronk



Mega: "Because Israel's enemies suck ass." 

No word of Israel's de-facto allies in the Gulf funding extremists in Syria to get rid of Assad.

[YOUTUBE]w04YE5zRmc8[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Rain (Oct 10, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Assad has massively. Hes killed well over 150,000.
> 
> Too late. Though I'm sure you'll rationalize this staggering figure (more in 4 years than Israel has killed in its *entire history*) despite crying about rubber bullets and tear gas in the next post.



Because Israel doesn't need to commit full scale assault to secure it's interests and maintain domination over Palestinians. Why would they tarnish their reputation more than it is needed? It has nothing to do with some moral high ground of Israel compared to that butcher of Syria.


----------



## Zyrax (Oct 10, 2015)




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## Nemesis (Oct 10, 2015)

Unsurprising.  Get the Kurds on side in both Iraq and Syria you now have a new group to influence in the region, with a few agreements in which Russia has an ally in Syria who wouldn't be against independent Kurdistan, Kurds in turn look towards Moscow, while Baghdad swings further to Iran.

Though the missiles falling in Iran space could lead to some issues between Moscow and Tehrain.


----------



## Dragon D. Luffy (Oct 10, 2015)

I die a little inside whenever the argument becomes "which side has killed the most people".

Because if I killed 100.000 people and my opponent killed 100.001, I have the moral high ground.


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## Undertaker (Oct 10, 2015)

Iran bought 4 missiles, Russia sent it over.


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## Stelios (Oct 10, 2015)

Undertaker said:


> Iran bought 4 missiles, Russia sent it over.


----------



## Sferr (Oct 10, 2015)

Nemesis said:


> Though the missiles falling in Iran space could lead to some issues between Moscow and Tehrain.



Iran already told that the fact that Russian missiles fell in Iran is an anti-Russian propaganda. So their relationship should be fine. Thought Iran may lie here to save Russia's face.


----------



## hcheng02 (Oct 11, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> It's mostly that Syria/Iranians/Hezbollah/Kurds/Iraqi's are shit, and airstrikes without ground followups by competent soldiers aren't going to do much.
> 
> That being said ISIS does fight unusually well. Chalk it up to good morale and discipline.



I'm surprised that ISIS is doing so well against Hezbollah. Aren't the Iranians hardened and experienced due to their wars against  Israel?


----------



## Deer Lord (Oct 11, 2015)

hcheng02 said:


> I'm surprised that ISIS is doing so well against Hezbollah. Aren't the Iranians hardened and experienced due to their wars against  Israel?


The iranians never fought Israel.


----------



## hcheng02 (Oct 11, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> The iranians never fought Israel.



Isn't Hezbollah basically a proxy Iranian army that at this point needs Iranian personnel and equipment (like that Iranian general that was killed)?


----------



## Punk Zebra (Oct 11, 2015)

The Russians are making breakthroughs on ISIS within only a week yet the USA hasn't done shit to curb ISIS all this time, makes you wonder if they want to stop ISIS or not because they help in removing Assad.


----------



## Megaharrison (Oct 11, 2015)

hcheng02 said:


> Isn't Hezbollah basically a proxy Iranian army that at this point needs Iranian personnel and equipment (like that Iranian general that was killed)?



Pretty much. There's Iranian soldiers/officers in Hezbollah as well. When the IDF bombed a Hezbollah convoy last year a top Iranian general got killed too.


----------



## Joakim3 (Oct 11, 2015)

Punk Zebra said:


> The Russians are making breakthroughs on ISIS within only a week yet the USA hasn't done shit to curb ISIS all this time, makes you wonder if they want to stop ISIS or not because they help in removing Assad.



Because unlike Russia, Syria has zero economic or political value to the US. We simply joined the fray as the _good big brother_. 

Are job was never boots on the ground but rather help the Syrians help themselves

Russia on the other hand has economic and political needs for Syria, which is why they skipped straight to military engagement and carpet bombing the fuck out of half the country. They _need_ Assad in power to continue doing their usual dirt


----------



## Nemesis (Oct 11, 2015)

Punk Zebra said:


> The Russians are making breakthroughs on ISIS within only a week yet the USA hasn't done shit to curb ISIS all this time, makes you wonder if they want to stop ISIS or not because they help in removing Assad.



Russia has not done shit to ISIS.  90% of Russian attacks have been on other rebel groups who hate ISIS just as much as the next guy.  Assad if he is gaining ground is on FSA and other rebel groups, hardly on ISIS.


----------



## Megaharrison (Oct 12, 2015)

Punk Zebra said:


> The Russians are making breakthroughs on ISIS within only a week yet the USA hasn't done shit to curb ISIS all this time, makes you wonder if they want to stop ISIS or not because they help in removing Assad.



The claims there's a breakthrough against ISIS are BS. The Russians bombed FSA positions and they withdrew, and ISIS took over their territory.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Oct 12, 2015)

You know how many bombs were dropped on Vietnam??  Bombing ISIS is not going to work


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 12, 2015)

makeoutparadise said:


> You know how many bombs were dropped on Vietnam??  Bombing ISIS is not going to work



Honestly we needed more


----------



## Deer Lord (Oct 12, 2015)

hcheng02 said:


> Isn't Hezbollah basically a proxy Iranian army that at this point needs Iranian personnel and equipment (like that Iranian general that was killed)?


Hezbolla is a proxy for Iran, but they are Lebanese.
The Iranian army proper hasn't come into conflict with the IDF.


----------



## Jin-E (Oct 12, 2015)

> Russian warplanes pounded Syrian rebels unaffiliated with Islamic State on Sunday, insurgents said, helping Moscow's ally Bashar al-Assad reclaim territory and dealing a fresh setback to the strategy of Washington and its allies.
> 
> President Vladimir Putin - who has infuriated Assad's enemies in the United States, Europe, Turkey and the Arab world by bombing the rebels to protect him - reached out to one of the Syrian leader's fiercest opponents by meeting the powerful defense minister of Saudi Arabia.
> 
> ...


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/11/us-mideast-crisis-syria-idUSKCN0S506F20151011


Lol, Russians continuing to lie about hitting ISIS when anyone with half a brain know that's bollocks.


----------



## Amanda (Oct 12, 2015)

Syria will never see the light of day again. Whatever will be left of it after this multiplayer gang rape is not only back in the medievals, but back in the stone age.

But triple hurrah for rebellion.


----------



## epyoncloud (Oct 12, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> The claims there's a breakthrough against ISIS are BS. The Russians bombed FSA positions and they withdrew, and ISIS took over their territory.



why dont you fight the ISIS israel? 

stop bitching the food sucks if you aren't the chef


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 12, 2015)

epyoncloud said:


> why dont you fight the ISIS israel?
> 
> stop bitching the food sucks if you aren't the chef


Not in Israel's interest to fight. As far as Israel is concerned, they're all assholes. Let them kill each other.

More specifically, two of those higher on Israel's shit list, Iran and Hezbollah, are in a Vietnam/Afghanistanesque quagmire.

So when your foes are hemorrhaging blood and treasure, naturally you would stay out of the way.


----------



## Amanda (Oct 12, 2015)

ISIS is funny though, they has said they will fight against the Palestinians because they aren't trying hard enough to destroy Israel. I recall they event shot some rockets to Gaza from Egypt. I wonder what would happen if they tried harder?


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 12, 2015)

Amanda said:


> ISIS is funny though, they has said they will fight against the Palestinians because they aren't trying hard enough to destroy Israel. I recall they event shot some rockets to Gaza from Egypt. I wonder what would happen if they tried harder?


Its almost a pity ISIS will never be strong enough to pose a legitimate threat to any real country.

Because if they actually carried through with that and attacked Palestinians, if Israel then fought to defend them, that whole common enemy thing would go a long way towards bringing about a final peace agreement and the whole two states thing.

Mind you Netanyahu, being the fucking fool he is, probably wouldn't sieze it.


----------



## MegaultraHay (Oct 12, 2015)

*U.S. delivers 50 tons of ammunition to Syria rebel groups*



> (CNN)U.S. military cargo planes gave 50 tons of ammunition to rebel groups overnight in northern Syria, using an air drop of 112 pallets as the first step in the Obama Administration's urgent effort to find new ways to support those groups.
> 
> Details of the air mission over Syria were confirmed by a U.S. official not authorized to speak publicly because the details have not yet been formally announced.
> 
> ...



                                                                                                         .


----------



## Hand Banana (Oct 12, 2015)

Got a bad feeling about this.


----------



## Include Mallet (Oct 12, 2015)

The U.S creates it's own future enemies.


----------



## dream (Oct 12, 2015)

The US really should wash its hands clean of that region.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 12, 2015)

Lol, Benjamin Netenyahu is no fool. If such a were to happen, he'd more likely find a way to use it as a reason to expand settlements even further. Flying Sphagetti God, bless the Middle East.


----------



## Megaharrison (Oct 12, 2015)

epyoncloud said:


> why dont you fight the ISIS israel?
> 
> stop bitching the food sucks if you aren't the chef



Lol, ISIS isn't our problem and it's hilarious to watch Iran and Russia's chickens coming home to roost. No, you fight your own wars. Assad doesn't need yet another country coming to bail him out.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Oct 12, 2015)

Let the destablization continue.


----------



## Deleted member 235437 (Oct 12, 2015)

Because this worked out so well before.....oh wait


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Oct 12, 2015)

Obama is a dumbass


----------



## Utopia Realm (Oct 12, 2015)

Does Obama have the memory of a goldfish? Didnt he see how well this worked out so far...?


----------



## Punished Pathos (Oct 12, 2015)

Obama knows what he is doing.
Here comes the next boogieman and the next big terrorist cell


----------



## Stelios (Oct 12, 2015)

> U.S. delivers 50 tons of ammunition to Syria rebel groups
> 
> (CNN)U.S. military cargo planes gave 50 tons of ammunition to rebel groups overnight in northern Syria, using an air drop of 112 pallets as the first step in the Obama Administration's urgent effort to find new ways to support those groups.
> 
> ...



"Staying the fuck out"    
world police team america fuck yeah


----------



## sworder (Oct 12, 2015)

who convinced obama to do this, probably wasn't even his own idea

there's some evil genius in the white house trying to make obama look as bad as possible


----------



## Jin-E (Oct 12, 2015)

This is for operations against ISIS and not the regime. So the chance of it getting in the hands of extremists is pretty slim.


----------



## Sferr (Oct 12, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> The claims there's a breakthrough against ISIS are BS. The Russians bombed FSA positions and they withdrew, and ISIS took over their territory.



The territory that ISIS took from FSA was far away from where Russians dropped their bombs so it wasn't the Russians that they ran away from. And considering that no fighting was reported from there and the news about ISIS taking the territory from the rebels just suddenly appeared, the rebels probably didn't even run away but just changed flags. Or simply agreed to give up the territory to ISIS.


----------



## Megaharrison (Oct 12, 2015)

Khaleesi said:


> Because this worked out so well before.....oh wait



I can't recall a single instance of US-made arms being used against US forces in Afghanistan. Besides like maybe an M16 they picked up from Pakistan.

This is still too little too late in any regard, Russia has already poured enough weapons into Syria and they make up 99% of ISIS' inventory.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 12, 2015)

Dream said:


> The US really should wash its hands clean of that region.


That's basically been Obama's whole MO.

Except the fucking arabs insist on causing trouble.

Which is basically the whole point of the Iran deal. What it achieves is a) Preventing the Saudi-Iranian cold war from going nuclear, b) Empowering the internationalist Iranians so they have the political power to take their country back from the zealots, c) Long term getting Iran back on Team America's side so they can be the ones to deal with the Wahhabishits instead of us.


----------



## Zyrax (Oct 13, 2015)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34515498
Russia's Embassy in Syria was shelled


----------



## Chelydra (Oct 13, 2015)

Stelios said:


> "Staying the fuck out"
> world police team america fuck yeah



Nice cover story, hopefully these supplies also included stinger missiles and other somewhat older anti air ammunition.


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 13, 2015)

> *New Syrian Rebel Faction Forms, US Promises Arms
> 
> Kurdish YPG to Be Largest Faction in New Force*
> 
> ...


----------



## makeoutparadise (Oct 13, 2015)

Let's hope they don't betray us like the last guys


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 13, 2015)

Kurds are really the only ones that can be depended on.

Assuming the US provides them sufficient intel so they can avoid being bombed by both Russia and Turkey.


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 13, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> Kurds are really the only ones that can be depended on.
> 
> Assuming the US provides them sufficient intel so they can avoid being bombed by both Russia and Turkey.



Kurds getting bombed by Russia? Not likely, since they are no foe of Assad, but rather an ally. By NATO-member Turkey however...


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 13, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Kurds getting bombed by Russia? Not likely, since they are no foe of Assad, but rather an ally. By NATO-member Turkey however...


I wouldn't say ally.

More like 'enemy that isn't a threat yet so not worth bothering with'.

As Kurdish interest is basically carving out their enclave and possibly independence, Assad will probably go after them long term, if he can. But since they aren't particularly after his head, they are lower on the priority list.


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 13, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> I wouldn't say ally.
> 
> More like 'enemy that isn't a threat yet so not worth bothering with'.
> 
> As Kurdish interest is basically carving out their enclave and possibly independence, Assad will probably go after them long term, if he can. But since they aren't particularly after his head, they are lower on the priority list.



I said they're rather allies than foes and it's true. But yeah they haven't formed a formal alliance, but having common enemies (Turks, IS, Sunni-extremists) and fighting side by side is as close as it gets in terms of informal alliances.

And since Assad can only dream of reclaiming all of Syria, the scenario where he and the Kurds will be at odds isn't likely to happen anytime soon, if at all.


----------



## Jin-E (Oct 13, 2015)

> Two senior commanders of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) have been killed in Syria, according to Iranian media.
> 
> Hamid Mokhtarband and Brigadier General Farshad Hassounizadeh died while assisting the Syrian government's battle against ISIL on Monday, reported the Tasnim and Fars news agencies and Press TV.
> 
> ...


?

IRGC officers and Hezbollah commanders are dying like flies in this offensive.


----------



## Megaharrison (Oct 13, 2015)

Lots and lots of Iranian/Hezbollah commanders have died in Syria. They're doing something wrong.


----------



## Amol (Oct 14, 2015)

Exactly how many times al- Baghdadi got injured in various countries efforts?
Heard he got spinal injury.
Not sure whether true or false.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 14, 2015)

Jin-E said:


> ?
> 
> IRGC officers and Hezbollah commanders are dying like flies in this offensive.


Hah.

Nice.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 14, 2015)

Dead Isis soldiers wear FSA tag  
"USA: staying the fuck away one dead "moderate" Isis soldier per time"
I d use skully but I don't think it's that funny


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 14, 2015)

>posted by russians


----------



## Stelios (Oct 14, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> >posted by russians



We already know that FSA mercs go to whoever's paying the most.
I guess you ll believe this when CNN posts something relevant


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 14, 2015)

Just saying, it wouldn't be that hard for Russia to plant that and then say HEY LOOK! EVERYONE ASSAD IS FIGHTING ARE TERRORISTS!!!!!11


----------



## Stelios (Oct 14, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> Just saying, it wouldn't be that hard for Russia to plant that and then say HEY LOOK! EVERYONE ASSAD IS FIGHTING ARE TERRORISTS!!!!!11




Or look  USA, FSA and ISIS are actually the same stop funding them maybe


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 14, 2015)

Lol, I cannot stop laughing at this guy. Yo man, what's one credible reason USA would fund ISIS? Please, enlighten me for I am so stupid.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 14, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> Lol, I cannot stop laughing at this guy. Yo man, what's one credible reason USA would fund ISIS? Please, enlighten me for I am so stupid.



Miscalculation. They actually think that the FSA will stay true to their cause or their humble motivations against bad Assad and not join/work for ISIS at the same time.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 14, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Miscalculation. They actually think that the FSA will stay true to their cause or their humble motivations against bad Assad and not join/work for ISIS at the same time.



Lol, so you're saying we fund the FSA. Because earlier you said ISIS. If I'm not mistaken, the only people the FSA may hate more than Assad is ISIS. ISIS has done a pretty good job of keeping the FSA other groups from joining them, by indiscriminately slaughtering them.

The only time US weapons or money end up with ISIS is when shitty partners get defeated by ISIS and the weapons are taken.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 14, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> Lol, so you're saying we fund the FSA. Because earlier you said ISIS. If I'm not mistaken, the only people the FSA may hate more than Assad is ISIS. ISIS has done a pretty good job of keeping the FSA other groups from joining them, by indiscriminately slaughtering them.
> 
> The only time US weapons or money end up with ISIS is when shitty partners get defeated by ISIS and the weapons are taken.





it's ok you have room for more mistakes


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 14, 2015)

Stelios said:


> it's ok you have room for more mistakes



Clearly you don't the different between ISIS and the rebels.

There are three factions in Syria.

1) Assad

2) Various rebels groups, some of which are considered to be terrorist groups.

3) ISIS

Assad and the Rebel Groups are at war with each other, but they're also both at war with ISIS. The article you posted is about the US giving weapons to a Rebel Group.


----------



## Sferr (Oct 14, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> Rebel Groups are at war with each other, but they're also both at war with ISIS. The article you posted is about the US giving weapons to a Rebel Group.



Remember these new Toyotas of ISIS?


Well, they were given by  to the 'moderate' rebels back in 2014 as an non-lethal aid. And surely it's not just Toyotas that ISIS got from the 'moderate' rebels who are so eagerly supplied by USA.

The point is, _some_ rebel groups do really hate ISIS and want to stop it, the Kurds are the most obvious examples. But _some_ rebel groups also work with ISIS and Al-Qaeda and you can't even tell who is working with whom. There is no FSA, it doesn't exist, there are just a big amount of different warring groups and nobody knows for sure, what group is actually 'moderate' and what isn't. The only group that for sure are ok are the Kurds but nobody is bombing them.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 14, 2015)

Outlawjohn you clearly connive on the fact that you are always putting your finger where it shouldn't be. You also deny to see that your foreign policy has made things worst and destabilized middle east. Not even going to mention about your weaponry ending up in ISIS hands and that it will happen again. We ll be here and we ll witness it np

I suggest you see this sober view on your foreign policy. You may realize a things or two.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 14, 2015)

Sferr said:


> Remember these new Toyotas of ISIS?
> 
> 
> Well, they were given by  to the 'moderate' rebels back in 2014 as an non-lethal aid. And surely it's not just Toyotas that ISIS got from the 'moderate' rebels who are so eagerly supplied by USA.
> ...



Actually Erdogan said he ll bomb terrorists in Syria and bombed the Kurds but that's a different story for a different thread I guess.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 14, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Outlawjohn you clearly connive on the fact that you are always putting your finger where it shouldn't be. You also deny to see that your foreign policy has made things worst and destabilized middle east. Not even going to mention about your weaponry ending up in ISIS hands and that it will happen again. We ll be here and we ll witness it np
> 
> I suggest you see this sober view on your foreign policy. You may realize a things or two.



I didn't say anything about where we should or should not be. Listen to me: I said we don't give weapons to ISIS. Any weapons or technology they get their hands on is taken from moderates they kill or capture.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 14, 2015)

Sferr said:


> Remember these new Toyotas of ISIS?
> 
> 
> Well, they were given by  to the 'moderate' rebels back in 2014 as an non-lethal aid. And surely it's not just Toyotas that ISIS got from the 'moderate' rebels who are so eagerly supplied by USA.
> ...



You fail to realize that ISIS is actually at war with al-Qaeda. They are fighting just about every major jihadi group in the region, including Al-Nusra, which is the most largest and most jihadi of all of them.

Both of you need to stop reading more into what I said than what I said. My statement was simply this:

The US does not *give* weapons/equipment to ISIS. Anything they get from the US is taken from rebel groups. It may even be possible that ISIS is working with a few extremely jihadist Rebel Groups, but  none of those are receiving US funding.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 14, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> My statement was simply this:
> 
> The US does not *give* weapons/equipment to ISIS. Anything they get from the US is taken from rebel groups. It may even be possible that ISIS is working with a few extremely jihadist Rebel Groups, but  none of those are receiving US funding.



Nobody said that you directly funded ISIS. However you spent 500 millions for Syria and instead of actually fighting ISIS you ended up empowering them.

Also have a look at this:
 but I doubt you have a subscription to FT so go there for the same article:




 Syrian Rebel commanders are actually buying oil from ISIS. Those same FSA Rebels that United States spent half billion dollars training them.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/02/us-usa-syria-obama-order-idUSBRE8701OK20120802

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/09/us-mideast-crisis-syria-usa-idUSKCN0S31BR20151009


 And now suddenly you are like a millennial Pontius Pilatus let's wash our hands? Russians came now into the game and said there's only one way to fix the situation in Syria no more world police crap we use standard procedures. Standard procedures do not go through rebel groups John they go through elected governments.

 Yet here you are     providing  again ammunition to rebel groups that have ties with Isis (due to the whole oil deal remember wink wink) and it's not that hard to follow this train of thought now is it?


----------



## Stelios (Oct 14, 2015)

y before I forget 


Putin Crushes BBC Smartass:


a whole new perspective to consider I hope you enjoy


----------



## Stelios (Oct 14, 2015)

Mael 


I dare you to counter the arguments stated above or you can just stay in my cp as a bitter nationalist


----------



## The Faceless Man (Oct 14, 2015)

Why do I have this Stelios on soft ignore? 

Is he special cuz I have super ignore for others..

 Maybe its a girll hmmm


----------



## Mael (Oct 14, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Mael
> 
> 
> I dare you to counter the arguments stated above or you can just stay in my cp as a bitter nationalist



I took long enough of a break from posting.

First off, you have nothing to counter.  You provide merely hearsay about links between the FSA and ISIS and then go even wilder to state that the US is thus helping ISIS out.  That's like saying the US is helping the Taliban if the QST overruns a checkpoint and steals a few heavy machine guns.  It's nonsensical.  What the FSA does is up to them.  There's no hand up their ass.  We give them stuff and if they want to pull some shitty maneuvers it's on them, not us.  It sucks, but that's their call to make.  Also you're really not getting how there's a dime a dozen rebel groups.  They're out for their own survival.  But anything to make the logical, or rather illogical, chain of association.  You're literally playing that Kevin Bacon game with them and somehow stating that the US is directly helping the bad guy now.  Mistakes are made when you don't want to directly insert troops already sick and tired of Middle Eastern military incompetence and the prospect of ruining their lives over lost causes.  If the US went 100% behind the Kurds, then it's worth getting involved.  Until then, it's kid gloves and you can grin like an idiot all you want but we're not the ones dying.

What's even more nonsensical is your absolute adoration for Vlad Putin, the man who in one fell stroke just fucked the Russian economy all for the sake of some misbegotten national pride and paranoia.  Not only was the Crimea bit half-cocked and won't be going away for a while, the dropping oil prices and sanctions have the already mediocre Russian economy limping into the next half of this decade.  Your chest-thumping over this Russian is bizarre but then again I recall your past history promoting dipshits like him out of some illogical hatred of the West.  Is this because you're Greek and bitter better-off nations are tired of your nation's awful socialist spending habits?  I'm just guessing here but I wouldn't be surprised if it was accurate.

Not convinced Ukraine was enough of a shitshow, he did exactly what he (and you) gave the US, insert his nation militarily into a Middle Eastern conflict.  That means more taxes, more treasure spent, more bloodshed, greater risk to his national security, and a more apprehensive Russian populace who will eventually get tired of the chest-thumping.  I love how you bother the US for having limited involvement.  We learned it the hard way, yes, but there are no good guys in this conflict save for the Kurds and you couldn't give two shits about them given how head over heels for Russia you are in.  There is nothing wise about his overall strategy.  Saving Assad will be saving a VERY limited tyrant and further splitting the Shia/Sunni lines.  This is a man who is petty and wants to be involved again in a century where Russia will eventually have no place next to China and the US.  And here you are, sucking his dick.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 14, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Nobody said that you directly funded ISIS. However you spent 500 millions for Syria and instead of actually fighting ISIS you ended up empowering them.
> 
> Also have a look at this:
> but I doubt you have a subscription to FT so go there for the same article:
> ...





Mael said:


> I took long enough of a break from posting.
> 
> First off, you have nothing to counter.  You provide merely hearsay about links between the FSA and ISIS and then go even wilder to state that the US is thus helping ISIS out.  That's like saying the US is helping the Taliban if the QST overruns a checkpoint and steals a few heavy machine guns.  It's nonsensical.  What the FSA does is up to them.  There's no hand up their ass.  We give them stuff and if they want to pull some shitty maneuvers it's on them, not us.  It sucks, but that's their call to make.  Also you're really not getting how there's a dime a dozen rebel groups.  They're out for their own survival.  But anything to make the logical, or rather illogical, chain of association.  You're literally playing that Kevin Bacon game with them and somehow stating that the US is directly helping the bad guy now.  Mistakes are made when you don't want to directly insert troops already sick and tired of Middle Eastern military incompetence and the prospect of ruining their lives over lost causes.  If the US went 100% behind the Kurds, then it's worth getting involved.  Until then, it's kid gloves and you can grin like an idiot all you want but we're not the ones dying.
> 
> ...



My entire response to you is just read what Mael said. You complain about US intervention in Syria, but don't acknowledge that if it weren't for Russia and Iran doing their damnedest to keep Assad in power, the rebel groups would have long since put an end to him and ISIS.

ISIS is hardly a major power in Syria. Al-Nusra and various rebel groups have more men, more fire power and much, much more money. The only thing keeping ISIS from being killed by the rebels is that the rebels are busy fighting Assad, who they can't kill because Russia and Iran are trying to save one of their proxy puppets.

As for Russia "ending the game", you're a fool. They've just stalled the inevitable. They cannot save their butt-puppet. Why? Because their butt-puppet has lost the will of the majority of the population. Moderate or radical, the Rebel Groups will win this fight? Why?

1) They have more money/weapons. The Gulf Arab nations are funding them out the ass. Now that Russia is in, they will fund more.

2) Because Russia is in, the Rebel Groups are going to get *more* radical. A Christian Empire invading a Muslim Nation? You bet your ass every young jihadi around the world has a boner the size of a boa constrictor and is making plans to join the fight.


----------



## Jin-E (Oct 14, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> ISIS is hardly a major power in Syria. Al-Nusra and various rebel groups have more men, more fire power and much, much more money. The only thing keeping ISIS from being killed by the rebels is that the rebels are busy fighting Assad, who they can't kill because Russia and Iran are trying to save one of their proxy puppets.



Mostly agree with you but here i must dissent. ISIS controls practically all of eastern Syria and have a presence in other areas of Syria as well(Damascus, Aleppo, Quneitra, Homs etc).

As for finances, they also control most of the major oilfields in Syria and extort/tax the millions of people under their rule.


----------



## Megaharrison (Oct 14, 2015)

Of the major players in Syria, the people who control the least amount of the country sans the Kurds are the Iranians-Russians themselves (less than 20%)


----------



## Stelios (Oct 14, 2015)

Mael said:


> I took long enough of a break from posting.
> 
> First off, you have nothing to counter.  You provide merely hearsay about links between the FSA and ISIS and then go even wilder to state that the US is thus helping ISIS out.  That's like saying the US is helping the Taliban if the QST overruns a checkpoint and steals a few heavy machine guns.  It's nonsensical.  What the FSA does is up to them.  There's no hand up their ass.  We give them stuff and if they want to pull some shitty maneuvers it's on them, not us.  It sucks, but that's their call to make.  Also you're really not getting how there's a dime a dozen rebel groups.  They're out for their own survival.  But anything to make the logical, or rather illogical, chain of association.  You're literally playing that Kevin Bacon game with them and somehow stating that the US is directly helping the bad guy now.



So your intenvention that is a major clusterfuck and has the consequence of indirectly helping ISIS that never happened right?

 Here's one more for you why is that out of the 10400 us airstrikes in Syria only 196 have hit (lol surely by accident ) ISIS oil when there's six kilometer of trucks waiting to buy the 25-35$ per barrel? Don't answer that we both know it's ok.




> What's even more nonsensical is your absolute adoration for Vlad Putin, the man who in one fell stroke just fucked the Russian economy all for the sake of some misbegotten national pride and paranoia.  Not only was the Crimea bit half-cocked and won't be going away for a while, the dropping oil prices and sanctions have the already mediocre Russian economy limping into the next half of this decade.  Your chest-thumping over this Russian is bizarre but then again I recall your past history promoting dipshits like him out of some illogical hatred of the West.  Is this because you're Greek and bitter better-off nations are tired of your nation's awful socialist spending habits?  I'm just guessing here but I wouldn't be surprised if it was accurate.



You play the Crimea card really?



Lol Like you had no part in Crimea. You are blaming Russia for taking action to protect its interests at its country borders?

 Not many know that NATOs official existence is to "protect" against nonexistent Nuclear Iranian missiles but everybody knows that the whole missile defense system is actually pointing missiles to Russia.

So Russia actually has the nukes and the balls to say fuck off you can't do whatever you like not within the range of my borders. Why this doesn't make any sense at all to you and it makes sense to spent tax dollars to drop weapons to moderate muslim rebels that today fight for Syria tomorrow for ISIS?

Well you tried to fuck economy's Russia with sanctions and the whole us vs opec russia oil price war since you can't actually go face to face but guess what:



You actually failed at that as well 

You really want to bring petty arguments in this conversation by attacking my nationality? If I was a fifteen year old female I'd bite but come on get serious 



> Not convinced Ukraine was enough of a shitshow, he did exactly what he (and you) gave the US, insert his nation militarily into a Middle Eastern conflict.  That means more taxes, more treasure spent, more bloodshed, greater risk to his national security, and a more apprehensive Russian populace who will eventually get tired of the chest-thumping.  I love how you bother the US for having limited involvement.  We learned it the hard way, yes, but there are no good guys in this conflict save for the Kurds and you couldn't give two shits about them given how head over heels for Russia you are in.  There is nothing wise about his overall strategy.  Saving Assad will be saving a VERY limited tyrant and further splitting the Shia/Sunni lines.  This is a man who is petty and wants to be involved again in a century where Russia will eventually have no place next to China and the US.  And here you are, sucking his dick.




Didn't Russia actually offer to get down Assad peacefully in 2012?
West ignored them. Instead they chose to keep on giving arms and cash that in the end of the day ended up in ISIS hands 

I can really see the butthurt it's not like anyone else has the balls to go to UN and say United States you want to fix situation in Syria? You ve screwed enough and never asked anyone either even though it's agreed on the legislation. The only way to fix Syria is by supporting the legitimate government and not by giving more weapons and cash that end up in the hands of terrorists. Seven days and Putin's done more for the war against terrorism than Obama administration in a year. 
But yes sure  Assad's a tyrant , Sadam allegedly had chemical weapons of mass destruction , Gadaffi didn't want to use the petrodollar and what's next then?

PS : Don’t get me wrong, Muammar Gaddafi was a terrible, tyrannical leader in most respects, but when it came to economic independence and fiscal leadership, Libya was one of the few countries on the African continent that had any economic prosperity.  They also had a leadership that wasn’t deliberately infused by the globalists to destabilize the region. A region that is still in chaos and adds up to the middle east's destabilization thanks to you guys


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## Mider T (Oct 14, 2015)

Mael's back?:amazed


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 14, 2015)

...Stelios is using RT as a source? Seriously? Does he not WANT to be taken seriously?


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## OutlawJohn (Oct 14, 2015)

Jin-E said:


> Mostly agree with you but here i must dissent. ISIS controls practically all of eastern Syria and have a presence in other areas of Syria as well(Damascus, Aleppo, Quneitra, Homs etc).
> 
> As for finances, they also control most of the major oilfields in Syria and extort/tax the millions of people under their rule.





ISIS makes most of its money through taxes. The oil regime it set has become increasingly difficult to maintain now that the Turks have stopped buying, the Kurds have taken back their stolen land and the US is bombing the living hell out of their supply lines. Also, there's the fact that I can buy gas in some places in Wisconsin now for 2.50: cheap gas and US airpower are suffocating them.



ISIL's popularity in general is worn down. Brutally is only so attractive when you're steadily being beaten back by Iraqi militias to the west and bombarded in Syria. Their honeymoon days of nearly running down Baghdad are long behind them.

The fact of the matter is, despite their territorial gains, ISIS is low on money and low on recruits. They're also composed mostly of untrained savages, with their higher ranks being Saddam's former elites.

The Rebel Groups on the other hand are sitting pretty seeing as the Gulf States are going to continue to give them money, the US is going to continue giving them weapons, and al-Qaeda is going to keep giving them bodies to throw into the machine. There's also a very significant number of professional soldiers among them; the Sunnis that defected when Assad began to cull them like sheep.

The reason Assad has been so tolerant of ISIS, helpful even, is because he sees them for what they are, a non-threat. They have no allies, they depend on his good graces to buy their oil, their message is only so effective and so on and so forth. They could never prove to be a legitimate threat. They are good, however, at keeping the various Rebel Groups occupied and disjointed and not taking even more of his tiny sliver of land.

So that is why I say ISIS is not a major power broker in Syria. They've spent all their chips. Their hard, fast and brutal expansion has already coming to a grinding end. They're losing on all sides; against Iraqis, against Kurds and against the rebels, and their fundamentally unsustainable.

The Rebels Groups on the other hand, despite being disjointed and scrutinized, have everything that Putin fears will bring an end to Assad.

But that's just my opinion, though.


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## Mael (Oct 14, 2015)

After all this denial originally, Iran is officially getting involved.

Gotta love all this hypocrisy from Tehran and Moscow.  China loves to talk about not meddling, and despite its blatant crap in waters not belonging to them, it's amusing to see them lash out at their butt buddies.


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## Jin-E (Oct 14, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> ISIS makes most of its money through taxes. The oil regime it set has become increasingly difficult to maintain now that the Turks have stopped buying, the Kurds have taken back their stolen land and the US is bombing the living hell out of their supply lines. Also, there's the fact that I can buy gas in some places in Wisconsin now for 2.50: cheap gas and US airpower are suffocating them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I do hope you are correct, but this group has been proven to be remarkably resilient and adaptive to such an extent that i've become sceptical about any reports of it's decline.

- From a spent force on it's deathbed in Iraq 2008 in the aftermath of the US Troop Surge to almost complete control of the Anbar province today.

- Was ejected early 2014 from Northwestern Syria and became the enemy of pretty much every opposition group, still managed to take Raqqa and Deir al Zor.

- Was on the backheel due to US bombing and lost Tikrit only to later capture Ramadi and Palmyra.


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## Stelios (Oct 15, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...Stelios is using RT as a source? Seriously? Does he not WANT to be taken seriously?



I m sorry I missed the source in those copy pastes. Since cnn is allowed it made sense to use RT but I checked the NF Cafe Rules and you may disregard the RT links. However in regards with economic recovery of Russia despite sanctions Bloomberg cites the same and blackwater reports in Ukraine are reported in :Reuters , veteranstoday , globalresearch, German media also reported blackwater mercs in Ukraine.


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## OutlawJohn (Oct 15, 2015)

Jin-E said:


> I do hope you are correct, but this group has been proven to be remarkably resilient and adaptive to such an extent that i've become sceptical about any reports of it's decline.
> 
> - From a spent force on it's deathbed in Iraq 2008 in the aftermath of the US Troop Surge to almost complete control of the Anbar province today.
> 
> ...



I can understand the skepticism. Those bitches are certainly resilient and the Iraqis are extraordinarily incompetent (seeing as their former military heads are now the heads of ISIS). But, I don't see how ISIS can continue to be strong. They've cut themselves from all allies and both their primary monetary supplies are running thin.

The best thing about it, I think, is that Assad has tied his survival closely to the strength of ISIS. His hope all along as been that the west will see Syria as "Assad vs ISIS", where he thinks the west would give him endorsment. Now that ISIS is fizzling (ie, not explosively dangerous and threatening to run down Bagdhad), his dreams of the west supporting him to regain are control are dying as well.


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## Punished Pathos (Oct 15, 2015)

Stelios said:


> I can really see the butthurt it's not like anyone else has the balls to go to UN and say United States you want to fix situation in Syria? You ve screwed enough and never asked anyone either even though it's agreed on the legislation. The only way to fix Syria is by supporting the legitimate government and not by giving more weapons and cash that end up in the hands of terrorists. Seven days and Putin's done more for the war against terrorism than Obama administration in a year.
> But yes sure  Assad's a tyrant , Sadam allegedly had chemical weapons of mass destruction , Gadaffi didn't want to use the petrodollar and what's next then?
> 
> PS : Don?t get me wrong, Muammar Gaddafi was a terrible, tyrannical leader in most respects, but when it came to economic independence and fiscal leadership, Libya was one of the few countries on the African continent that had any economic prosperity.  They also had a leadership that wasn?t deliberately infused by the globalists to destabilize the region. A region that is still in chaos and adds up to the middle east's destabilization thanks to you guys



Im American and I agree.
Im sorry that my fellow Americans and others are so stupid.
Hey, nothing wrong with more war, more fear 
As long as we have a boogieman with chemical weapons and "rebels" and little terrorist cells, we will continue to repeat history.  

Lets airdrop more weapons to the rebels, nothing could go wrong right?
We gave Osama shit and he turned out pretty well 

Destabilization of the M.E and all the immigrats heading to them European countries and they should accept all of them and drown trying to provide welfare for everyone cuz its politically correct and they'll be racist if they don't


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## Kagekatsu (Oct 15, 2015)




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## Blue_Panter_Ninja (Oct 15, 2015)

Based president Assad and Putin!!


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## Mael (Oct 15, 2015)

Blue_Panter_Ninja said:


> Based president Assad and Putin!!



Ah the Flying Dutch Dipshit arrives.


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## Hand Banana (Oct 15, 2015)

Twitter?


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## Zyrax (Oct 15, 2015)

Its been since the 1990's since the Cubans interfered in a foriegn war. 
Most of their Military adventures  ended up in failure outside of the Pay of Pigs so yeah not sure why they are doing this


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## Stelios (Oct 16, 2015)

Mael said:


> Ah the Flying Dutch Dipshit arrives.



take a chill pill dude.




and enjoy  #2


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## Zyrax (Oct 16, 2015)

Stelios said:


> take a chill pill dude.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats only because The Congress/GOP made it literally impossible for Obama to do ANYTHING other than Stuff their Boyfriends the "Job Creators" would benefit from like the TPP


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## Stelios (Oct 16, 2015)

> Isis Inc: Syria’s ‘mafia-fashion’ fuel offers
> 
> 
> The want for power drives Assad regime right into a lethal recreation the place state-run firm employees are pawns
> ...


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## Zyrax (Oct 16, 2015)

Here are some sane arguements  :


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## epyoncloud (Oct 16, 2015)

almost everyone is betting Putin to fail. Lets see how things turn out 1 year later.

neg rep for anyone anti putin on this thread if Putin ends up solving the mess.


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## Mael (Oct 16, 2015)

epyoncloud said:


> almost everyone is betting Putin to fail. Lets see how things turn out 1 year later.
> 
> neg rep for anyone anti putin on this thread if Putin ends up solving the mess.



Talk about idiotically optimistic.  Iran is now pouring troops in.  You really think it's going to fix itself or improve dramatically in a year?


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## Utopia Realm (Oct 16, 2015)

epyoncloud, the clusterfuck in Syria isn't gonna get better for a long ass time. By the time the bullets stop flying through the air, the whole reason for fighting in that area will be forgotten. And if Putin somehow curbs the rebels/ISIS, too many bodies will be piled up like a Mountain fo anybody to say victory was secured.


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## Mael (Oct 16, 2015)

Utopia, it's time to just let the Putin-Pluggers have their fun. Remember how these folks think.  Be it Mugabe, Chavez, Putin, Xi, Khameini, etc., as long as they poke at the West they're super cool guys.  It could literally be Satan, Prince of Darkness, and as long as he is all "LEL AMURKA SUX" these folks will whoop and holler over it.


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## Stelios (Oct 16, 2015)

Mael said:


> Utopia, it's time to just let the Putin-Pluggers have their fun. Remember how these folks think.  Be it Mugabe, Chavez, Putin, Xi, Khameini, etc., as long as they poke at the West they're super cool guys.  It could literally be Satan, Prince of Darkness, and as long as he is all "LEL AMURKA SUX" these folks will whoop and holler over it.



 
you are exaggerating a bit


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## Mael (Oct 16, 2015)

Stelios said:


> you are exaggerating a bit



Judging by your previous attitudes, I don't think I am.


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## Stelios (Oct 16, 2015)

Mael said:


> Judging by your previous attitudes, I don't think I am.



Yes you are. Personally I'm not anti-american I just firmly believe that eventually America needs to step the fuck down and mind their own god damn business. And if they can't do that , that is fine as well but at least they need to learn to say "mea culpa".


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## Mael (Oct 16, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Yes you are. Personally I'm not anti-american I just firmly believe that eventually America needs to step the fuck down and mind their own god damn business. And if they can't do that , that is fine as well but at least they need to learn to say "mea culpa".



Yet you cheer when Russia is doing the exact same thing.

We're in a globalized economy.  No one will ever be minding their own business anymore.  And given the competitors, I'd rather have a faulty America than a China or Russia who REALLY don't give a darn about sensitivities.  That's letting your bias blind you.


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## Stelios (Oct 16, 2015)

Mael said:


> Yet you cheer when Russia is doing the exact same thing.
> 
> We're in a globalized economy.  No one will every be minding their own business anymore.  And given the competitors, I'd rather have a faulty America than a China or Russia who REALLY don't give a darn about sensitivities.  That's letting your bias blind you.




 I'm pretty sure that our disagreement is not about doing business within a global context. I m thankful China and Russia exist as they provide balance in the global status quo. I don't cheer for Russian actions in an already fucked up situation. What I cheer for is the fact that they are upping their game against an already aggressive USA. I do believe in process and standard procedures and by the book right now Russia is right.


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## Mael (Oct 16, 2015)

Stelios said:


> I'm pretty sure that our disagreement is not about doing business within a global context. I m thankful China and Russia exist as they provide balance in the global status quo. I don't cheer for Russian actions in an already fucked up situation. What I cheer for is the fact that they are upping their game against an already aggressive USA. I do believe in process and standard procedures and by the book right now Russia is right.



Then what you're also cheering for is an escalated and bloodier conflict because you think apparently the US needs a stern talking to.  That's pretty petty and oblivious to the notion that Russia is doing this to try to force themselves to look relevant again in the face of the reality of only the US and China being relevant for the next several decades.  I'm sure you're pretty quiet in the face of China's egregious water claims and Russia's continued bullshit with Putes in charge.  Nothing you say is convincing me you're doing this just to get some anti-US jollies.  Even if the US were to try to get negotiations in you'd still thumb your nose at it.  The point was the US said Assad had to go.  Russia said no and stymied everything in the UNSC because it can't let go of the fact that it's not as powerful as its USSR days.  The majority of the fighting groups were against Assad and you'd see far less bloodshed.

But no, let's just cheer for Russia because American needs to mind its own business.  Talk about ad nauseum.


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## Zyrax (Oct 16, 2015)

Why support either?
Neither is trying to create world peace but rather a world order where their the ones on top  and both are willing to do fucked up things to achieve their goals. 
Neither side here cares about the Syrians, They just care about making Syria their vassal. 
Putin is trying to achieve the near impossible by thinking what failed in Afghanistan, Vietnam, Algeria will work  in Syria
The British only defeated the Malaysian Communists because they promised Independence to the Malays. Not because they bombed everything like Russia's doing


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## Stelios (Oct 16, 2015)

Mael said:


> Then what you're also cheering for is an escalated and bloodier conflict because you think apparently the US needs a stern talking to.  That's pretty petty and oblivious to the notion that Russia is doing this to try to force themselves to look relevant again in the face of the reality of only the US and China being relevant for the next several decades.  I'm sure you're pretty quiet in the face of China's egregious water claims and Russia's continued bullshit with Putes in charge.  Nothing you say is convincing me you're doing this just to get some anti-US jollies.  Even if the US were to try to get negotiations in you'd still thumb your nose at it.  The point was the US said Assad had to go.  Russia said no and stymied everything in the UNSC because it can't let go of the fact that it's not as powerful as its USSR days.  The majority of the fighting groups were against Assad and you'd see far less bloodshed.
> 
> But no, let's just cheer for Russia because American needs to mind its own business.  Talk about ad nauseum.



Said the aggressor and then made up his mind. Talk about petitio principii with a taste of bullshit.

 You are swimming within middle-east's sand since the Barbary Wars. Just admit that you are angry that Putin managed to show to the world that American exceptionalism is an image that you can no longer sustain.


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## Stelios (Oct 16, 2015)

> The point was the US said Assad had to go. Russia said no and stymied everything in the UNSC because it can't let go of the fact that it's not as powerful as its USSR days. The majority of the fighting groups were against Assad and you'd see far less bloodshed.



And here's why you are full of bullshit. Less bloodshed would be in 2012 when Russia offered to get Assad down peacefully. What did you the exceptionals do? Ignored them. So three years after you talk about bloodshed after you have already plunged a country in civil war plus your fuckups that empowered extremist Muslims. 
 So what's your beef again for Russia? They support tyrant Assad? Talk about hypocrisy. It's just not YOUR tyrant. Like you give a shit about the Syrians. Europe actually has to deal with the result of your shit (Syrian war refugees) so all well for your standards again.


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## Son of Goku (Oct 16, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Yes you are. Personally I'm not anti-american I just firmly believe that eventually America needs to step the fuck down and mind their own god damn business. And if they can't do that , that is fine as well but at least they need to learn to say "mea culpa".





Stelios said:


> I'm pretty sure that our disagreement is not about doing business within a global context. I m thankful China and Russia exist as they provide balance in the global status quo. I don't cheer for Russian actions in an already fucked up situation. What I cheer for is the fact that they are upping their game against an already aggressive USA. I do believe in process and standard procedures and by the book right now Russia is right.





Stelios said:


> Said the aggressor and then made up his mind. Talk about petitio principii with a taste of bullshit.
> 
> You are swimming within middle-east's sand since the Barbary Wars. Just admit that you are angry that Putin managed to show to the world that American exceptionalism is an image that you can no longer sustain.




I think I can take a break.


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## Mael (Oct 16, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Said the aggressor and then made up his mind. Talk about petitio principii with a taste of bullshit.
> 
> You are swimming within middle-east's sand since the Barbary Wars. Just admit that you are angry that Putin managed to show to the world that American exceptionalism is an image that you can no longer sustain.





Stelios said:


> And here's why you are full of bullshit. Less bloodshed would be in 2012 when Russia offered to get Assad down peacefully. What did you the exceptionals do? Ignored them. So three years after you talk about bloodshed after you have already plunged a country in civil war plus your fuckups that empowered extremist Muslims.
> So what's your beef again for Russia? They support tyrant Assad? Talk about hypocrisy. It's just not YOUR tyrant. Like you give a shit about the Syrians. Europe actually has to deal with the result of your shit (Syrian war refugees) so all well for your standards again.



Where did I ever say American exceptionalism was a good thing?  The funny thing is that this all started because *Syrian people were protesting Assad who then processed to massacre his own people and then it devolved*.  Yes, clearly the ebul Murka's fault.

And also, what your referring to is Vitaly Churkin's remarks that they offered the peace plan and the mean ol' West shut it down.  The only other voucher is the Finnish President who said they "reportedly" ignored them.  Haven't seen anything in canon truth and Russians aren't known to be that truthful as seen in their Crimean hijinks.  But yes let's keep thinking the Russians were sincere:


> Just weeks before Ahtisaari had his chat with Churkin in February 2012, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov had visited Damascus and strongly backed the Assad regime's supposed overtures to the opposition.




Let's also ignore Russian and Chinese vetoes in UNSC resolutions:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/20/us-syria-crisis-un-idUSBRE86I0UD20120720

And do you know WHY we got involved in the Barbary States?  Because they were pirating OUR ships.  Are you dense?

I couldn't give a darn Putin's trying to show up exceptionalism.  I'm bothered that you all cuck for this Russian because of ebul Murka.



Son of Goku said:


> I think I can take a break.



Going away would be nice for you to do.


----------



## Rain (Oct 16, 2015)

Mael said:


> Yet you cheer when Russia is doing the exact same thing.
> 
> We're in a globalized economy.  No one will every be minding their own business anymore.



Mael is correct here, for once, albeit his conclusion that he would like "muh murika in power more den sum evul russkies or chinese" is cowardly. It is precisely because of interconnected global economy that we are witnessing this barbarism and it'll only get worse. Russia, China, Iran, Syria, North Korea etc.. are all reactionary states. Why? Because globalization strikes right at the heart of  the interest of their ruling classes (capitalists). They are desperately trying to keep their positions of power, and that's why you see Russians attacking Ukraine, and supporting butchers like Gaddafi, Assad etc.. The entire rethoric of these rulers boils down to them opposing globalization, all under the veil that they're protecting their national culture against western decadence, imperialism, gays, burger shops and whatnot , but in reality they do it because globalization would devour their class interests and rip them apart. It is because of this globalized capitalism that that the planet is in a constant precarious situation now it will only get worse. I will say once again that *the only *permanent solution to this problem is worldwide uprising of international proletariat who will put an end to their misery (we're always the ones who pay the price the most) by completely demolishing world system and installing a single international worker's dictatorship against all other classes until their political extinction.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 16, 2015)

Rain said:


> Mael is correct here, for once, albeit his conclusion that he would like "muh murika in power more den sum evul russkies or chinese" is cowardly. It is precisely because of interconnected global economy that we are witnessing this barbarism and it'll only get worse. Russia, China, Iran, Syria, North Korea etc.. are all reactionary states. Why? Because globalization strikes right at the heart of  the interest of their ruling classes (capitalists). They are desperately trying to keep their positions of power, and that's why you see Russians attacking Ukraine, and supporting butchers like Gaddafi, Assad etc.. The entire rethoric of these rulers boils down to them opposing globalization, all under the veil that they're protecting their national culture against western decadence, imperialism, gays, burger shops and whatnot , but in reality they do it because globalization would devour their class interests and rip them apart. It is because of this globalized capitalism that that the planet is in a constant precarious situation now it will only get worse. I will say once again that *the only *permanent solution to this problem is worldwide uprising of international proletariat who will put an end to their misery (we're always the ones who pay the price the most) by completely demolishing world system and installing a single international worker's dictatorship against all other classes until their political extinction.



Please, explain how this dictatorship would work.


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## Mael (Oct 16, 2015)

> I will say once again that the only permanent solution to this problem is worldwide uprising of international proletariat who will put an end to their misery (we're always the ones who pay the price the most) by completely demolishing world system and installing a single international worker's dictatorship against all other classes until their political extinction.



Why do you bother with pipe dreams?  I mean, thanks for acknowledging me being right , but really this is just laughable.


----------



## Zyrax (Oct 16, 2015)

Rain said:


> Mael is correct here, for once, albeit his conclusion that he would like "muh murika in power more den sum evul russkies or chinese" is cowardly. It is precisely because of interconnected global economy that we are witnessing this barbarism and it'll only get worse. Russia, China, Iran, Syria, North Korea etc.. are all reactionary states. Why? Because globalization strikes right at the heart of  the interest of their ruling classes (capitalists). They are desperately trying to keep their positions of power, and that's why you see Russians attacking Ukraine, and supporting butchers like Gaddafi, Assad etc.. The entire rethoric of these rulers boils down to them opposing globalization, all under the veil that they're protecting their national culture against western decadence, imperialism, gays, burger shops and whatnot , but in reality they do it because globalization would devour their class interests and rip them apart. It is because of this globalized capitalism that that the planet is in a constant precarious situation now it will only get worse. I will say once again that *the only *permanent solution to this problem is worldwide uprising of international proletariat who will put an end to their misery (we're always the ones who pay the price the most) by completely demolishing world system and installing a single international worker's dictatorship against all other classes until their political extinction.


----------



## Rain (Oct 16, 2015)

Bakunin was a mistake.



OutlawJohn said:


> Please, explain how this dictatorship would work.



It will be a dictatorship by the working class and their allies ( small peasants, artists, revolutionary intellectuals etc..) over all other classes like the society we live in right now is dictatorship by the bourgeoisie and it's own allies (bourgeoise politicians of all countries, military , police etc...) until they are politically (and physically if needed) eradicated. By ending capitalism, we shall also do away with market which creates artificial sense of scarcity. Most competent members in different fields will be leaders, but *no one will have monopoly of power over others* as the means of production are held in common and private property doesn't exist. *The basis of exploitation is done away with.* Production will be scientifically centrally planned and not for market, but for satisfying human needs. This is possible even today as a result of technology revolutionizing the means of production up to this level we have today.



Mael said:


> Why do you bother with pipe dreams?  I mean, thanks for acknowledging me being right , but really this is just laughable.



No, it is laughable (but not really, just unscientific and a result of ruling ideological order) that people think Capitalism is something "natural" (no economic system is natural) that will go on forever. Certain patterns are observable throughout history and the main forces which push it forward are the development of productive forces (how we create products to continue our reproduction) and class struggle (in class societies). We're still living in a society where classes exist and there's literally no reason to think this will end any differently than any other epoch with classes (ie. violent destruction of the present order of things, and installation of a new higher social body).


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## Stelios (Oct 16, 2015)

Mael said:


> Where did I ever say American exceptionalism was a good thing?  The funny thing is that this all started because *Syrian people were protesting Assad who then processed to massacre his own people and then it devolved*.  Yes, clearly the ebul Murka's fault.
> 
> And also, what your referring to is Vitaly Churkin's remarks that they offered the peace plan and the mean ol' West shut it down.  The only other voucher is the Finnish President who said they "reportedly" ignored them.  Haven't seen anything in canon truth and Russians aren't known to be that truthful as seen in their Crimean hijinks.  But yes let's keep thinking the Russians were sincere:
> 
> ...



"Crimean hijinks"

Which part of this speech is incorrect please do tell me and I ll reconsider everything 


http://www.dw.com/en/crimea-headed-for-rocky-transition/a-17502710
http://www.dw.com/en/crimeas-status-will-be-unclear-for-a-long-time/a-17500585

They decided man. It's not like Putin woke up and said I ll go there and bomb all Ukraine to take it. Why the fuck did you send Blackwater there? And it's not like NATO hasn't repeatedly flirted with Ukraine to plant a base there. Even as I m writing this NATO wants to bring a navy base there. Imagine tomorrow you wake up and you read that Russia brings a military base in Cuba. You d probably nuke the place and let Florida die from the Tsunami as well.



in a nutshell 



Time wise this is after the veto and it "proposes" that there was a counter proposal during the time of veto. 

What did Rice say?

>Rice said the United States would "probably" support the British resolution and described the Pakistani resolution as a simple technical rollover. "We have been clear, we are not supporting a technical rollover," she told reporters.<

What an asspull 
It's always others people weapons for you guys isn't it? 

All the western media wrote that Assad slaughtered the civilians.
Did he really? Assad came on power on 2000 with 97%. Within a year he took Syria a steps into modern civilization with internet , cellphones and satellite tv. 

Here's what a Syrian commoner  (Assad supporter) says about the war:



 Yet you are telling me that this president of 97% the eye doctor with no real agenda to become president he had his special forces to kill protesters after he already publicly gave orders not to shoot people. 


Of course Assad is the bad guy here and China and Russia are crazy communist leftist remnants that want him to stay on power and to keep on shooting protesters right?

To quote your fellow citizen Mencken:

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.




> And do you know WHY we got involved in the Barbary States?  Because they were pirating OUR ships.  Are you dense?
> 
> I couldn't give a darn Putin's trying to show up exceptionalism.  I'm bothered that you all cuck for this Russian because of ebul Murka.



To who are you referring when you say "you all cuck"? Your own political analysts say that Obama has lost face in front of Putin. Is this just a matter of you disliking the guy then?

Ebul Murka is not evil I have many American friends that are friends for life since day one we met. Your foreign policy is just fucking unacceptable and has caused more wrongs to the world than China's and Russia's foreign policy all together.


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## Mael (Oct 16, 2015)

They decided based upon referendums pressured by Moscow.  Are you that naive?


Boo fucking hoo, dude.  They lost the Cold War.  That justifies Crimea?  So a US base, agreed upon by the Republic of Korea, justifies China's asinine water claims they have no basis on?



> Of course Assad is the bad guy here and China and Russia are crazy communist leftist remnants that want him to stay on power and to keep on shooting protesters right?



Assad's family has done this before and they've done it again.  It doesn't take leagues of photos, videos, and testimonials to show Assad's forces fired on Syrians.  You cite a source from AN ASSAD SUPPORTER.  How biased could you get?

And two other words: Tiananmen Square.

Ukraine wanted to go to the EU.  Russia flipped.  Now they push into Crimea under shitty pretenses of ethnic Russians, split it asunder, and push referendums.  

Spare me your trivial crap of OH THE US DID SO MUCH MORE.  All you're doing is somehow justifying two wrongs make a right and that Putin is going to fix all this.  He isn't.  He's now escalating things far worse than any arms drop could ever.  And oh noes a political analyst said Obama lost face.  That's a political analyst, just one.  Frankly this notion that inaction the likes of Putin's means weakness is really idiotic and if anything you're talking Republican.



> Your foreign policy is just fucking unacceptable and has caused more wrongs to the world than China's and Russia's foreign policy all together.



That's what happens when Europe starts two world wars and creates a legacy with consequences today.  Cry some more though.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 16, 2015)

Stelios said:


> I m sorry I missed the source in those copy pastes. Since cnn is allowed it made sense to use RT but I checked the NF Cafe Rules and you may disregard the RT links. However in regards with economic recovery of Russia despite sanctions Bloomberg cites the same and blackwater reports in Ukraine are reported in :Reuters , veteranstoday , globalresearch, German media also reported blackwater mercs in Ukraine.


RT is the Russia State's propoganda news. Hence why its not allowed. If its the only source which is claiming Russia is having an economic recovery (despite EVERY. OTHER. SOURCE. Disproving it), that means that rt isn't a good source of that.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 16, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Ebul Murka is not evil I have many American friends that are friends for life since day one we met. Your foreign policy is just fucking unacceptable and has caused more wrongs to the world than China's and Russia's foreign policy all together.


Pfft this is hilarious. You truly have been brainwashed by Russian and China propoganda. You forget the Hodomor which Russia caused, Stalin's purges and planned new Holocaust before hid death, and China making the biggest genocide EVER under Mao. 'More wrongs to the world'? Don't make me fucking laugh.


----------



## Mael (Oct 16, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Pfft this is hilarious. You truly have been brainwashed by Russian and China propoganda. You forget the Hodomor which Russia caused, Stalin's purges and planned new Holocaust before hid death, and China making the biggest genocide EVER under Mao. 'More wrongs to the world'? Don't make me fucking laugh.



More often than not leftists tend to ignore what folks to do their own people.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 16, 2015)

Mael said:


> *They decided based upon referendums pressured by Moscow.*  Are you that naive?
> 
> 
> 
> Boo fucking hoo, dude.  They lost the Cold War.  That justifies Crimea?  So a US base, agreed upon by the Republic of Korea, justifies China's asinine water claims they have no basis on?



Dude 97% of Crimea voted in favor of Russia.. You are basically telling me that your opinion > Deutsche Welle? sure 



> Assad's family has done this before and they've done it again.  It doesn't take leagues of photos, videos, and testimonials to show Assad's forces fired on Syrians.  You cite a source from AN ASSAD SUPPORTER.  How biased could you get?



I do not cite a source from an Assad supporter. I cite a source that has an article from an Assad supporter. A United States website  source who's top journalist was held prisoner for ~two years by the Islamic State in Syria and then beheaded last August. Has also won  AMERICAN awards for the war coverage in Syria.

You are calling this -> 
biased?




> And two other words: Tiananmen Square.



Excuse me we are all over Ukraine and Middle-East now spare me with this subject hoping because you lost your marbles.



> Ukraine wanted to go to the EU.  Russia flipped.  Now they push into Crimea under shitty pretenses of ethnic Russians, split it asunder, and push referendums.
> 
> Spare me your trivial crap of OH THE US DID SO MUCH MORE.  All you're doing is somehow justifying two wrongs make a right and that Putin is going to fix all this.  He isn't.  He's now escalating things far worse than any arms drop could ever.  And oh noes a political analyst said Obama lost face.  That's a political analyst, just one.  Frankly this notion that inaction the likes of Putin's means weakness is really idiotic and if anything you're talking Republican.
> 
> ...



Two wrongs certainly don't do a right. I never said that. I'm 100% confident that if Russia takes the us sponsored sandmonkeys down they will also have Assad to step down.

Putin escalating  

 Remove Obama's dick from your brain for a bit and consider that Syria is really beyond the point of escalation after 4 years of civil war.


----------



## Mael (Oct 16, 2015)

> Here's what a Syrian commoner (Assad supporter) says about the war:



Are you craze?



> Remove Obama's dick from your brain for a bit and consider that Syria is really beyond the point of escalation after 4 years of civil war.



Yeah there's no hope for you.  Russia escalated as a world power inserting troops into a conflict like this.  Now you're just trying to be relative.

I'm done.  You actually are in denial of what Assad has done.  There's no further argument here.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 16, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> RT is the Russia State's propoganda news. Hence why its not allowed. If its the only source which is claiming Russia is having an economic recovery (despite EVERY. OTHER. SOURCE. Disproving it), that means that rt isn't a good source of that.



http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...overing-as-oil-reliance-eases-dvorkovich-says
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-fight-no-obstacle-to-recovery-path-iey43174
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ing-life-signs-in-russia-s-foundering-economy



> Pfft this is hilarious. You truly have been brainwashed by Russian and China propoganda. You forget the Hodomor which Russia caused, Stalin's purges and planned new Holocaust before hid death, and China making the biggest genocide EVER under Mao. 'More wrongs to the world'? Don't make me fucking laugh.



Yes let's go back when Alexander the Great also conquered half of the world   We are talking post WW2 here.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 16, 2015)

Mael said:


> Are you craze?



 Their journalist partner died from Islamist extremists cited this article in their AMERICAN newspaper yet for you it's not credible and not a product of sincere journalism/research because?




> Yeah there's no hope for you.  Russia escalated as a world power inserting troops into a conflict like this.  Now you're just trying to be relative.



Hey it's ok don't cry  you can't save them all 


> I'm done.  You actually are in denial of what Assad has done.  There's no further argument here.



 Because it's not like you were still bombing Lybia when the whole thing started in Syria. It's not like mercenaries were all over in the middle east already. Assad was THAT stupid to kill protesters after what happened in Tynisia that sparked the Arab Spring  Who's the naive here? 
It's ok dude keep living the dream


----------



## Mael (Oct 16, 2015)

Way to miss the point, Stel.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 16, 2015)

Mael said:


> Way to miss the point, Stel.



You hoped all over the place and I just tagged along.

Want to go back to square one? 

 Obama is not losing face because he's not taking action it's precisely because you guys are pulling your dick out after you cummed all over the place without a condom and now you are like "it's not my child".

 Russians are not angels either I do believe that they have a vision and plan to finally end the conflict though.


----------



## Zyrax (Oct 16, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Pfft this is hilarious. You truly have been brainwashed by Russian and China propoganda. You forget the *Hodomor* which Russia caused, Stalin's purges and planned new Holocaust before hid death, and China making the biggest genocide EVER under Mao. 'More wrongs to the world'? Don't make me fucking laugh.


and People in the Anglosphere Forget The Indians famines due to British Policies, And People worship a bastard like Churchill despite being a non-Genocidal Version of Hitler 


Before any of you morons call me a Russian shill, I am not, Russia is destroying its economy and getting involved in something that doesn't effect them at all, Putin is desptrate for Russia to be relevant to the point of Irrationality . I just find the whole "Its ok to hate on Russians for  Y even if it happened a long time but the British/Americans should be forgiven for X because it happened a long time ago" to be Bullshit

Focus on Morderns Russia's Actions and Policies if you don't want your past to be be brought up, People living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 16, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Yes let's go back when Alexander the Great also conquered half of the world   We are talking post WW2 here.


The latter stuff I mentioned was post-World War 2. Mao killed _50,000,000 _people. Stalin was going to do another Holocaust within his own borders before his death in 1953. And bringing these up shows that Russia and China have never had their hands clean. Hell they've been doing some of the most evil acts in history. Yet you go' America's foreign polcy has caused more wrongs' to show you have no idea what you're talking about.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 16, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The latter stuff I mentioned was post-World War 2. Mao killed _50,000,000 _people. Stalin was going to do another Holocaust within his own borders before his death in 1953. And bringing these up shows that Russia and China have never had their hands clean. Hell they've been doing some of the most evil acts in history. Yet you go' America's foreign polcy has caused more wrongs' to show you have no idea what you're talking about.



 I m not a historian but Mao has also been credited for modernizing china and promoting women's position in society.  Plus during his reign China's population increased dramatically. 

Stalin:
US-President Harry S. Truman:
"I like old Joe Stalin. He is a nice guy."

 Notice how you talk about what these guys did or WOULD DO within their own countries borders. When it comes to meddling with other countries internal affairs no one can hold a candle to USA. I just can't see why you have trouble admitting it when as a country you do it.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 16, 2015)

Stelios said:


> I m not a historian but Mao has also been credited for modernizing china and promoting women's position in society.  Plus during his reign China's population increased dramatically.


No, Mao sent everything backwards with his policies. Again, he presided over the biggest genocide in history. 50. Million. His policies nearly destroyed China, its only because of the falling out with the Soviet Union and befriending of America that the Communist Party survived in China to the 21st Century.
Stalin:


> US-President Harry S. Truman:
> "I like old Joe Stalin. He is a nice guy."


That's when they were still allied AND before the Cold War. And again, Stalin killed 37 million people in his purges, 7.5 million people in Ukraine through the Holodomor, and was planning yet ANOTHER Holocaust right after World War II even after Hitler's final solution horrified the world.


> Notice how you talk about what these guys did or WOULD DO within their own countries borders. When it comes to meddling with other countries internal affairs no one can hold a candle to USA. I just can't see why you have trouble admitting it when as a country you do it.


Ignoring that the Soviet Union conquered half of Europe after World War II, Stelios? How is that not meddling in an international stage? Not to mention propping up communist dictators all over the world, encouraging North Korea to invade South Korea, etc.

You are ignorant on history if you claim the US is the worse.


----------



## Rain (Oct 16, 2015)

Holy shit those SSM numbers 

37 million in purges? WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK? HOW MANY PEOPLE DO YOU THINK LIVED IN THE USSR BEFORE THE PURGES YOU FUCKING RETARDED FUCKTOID. HOW THE FUCK DO YOU EXPLAIN THEN THAT IN 1927 THERE WAS 95 MILLION PEOPLE AND IN 1940 110 MILLION YOU LITERAL RETARD. HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT JUST BEFORE THE PURGES IN 1935 THERE WAS 102 MILLION? DO YOU THINK THERE WOULD'VE BEEN 150 MILLION IF NOT FOR THE PURGES YOU BRAINDEAD PIECE OF TRASH. FUCK YOU FOR MAKING ME DEFEND THAT TRASH OF STALIN, BUT THIS IS JUST TOO MUCH BULLSHIT. FUCK YOU SO MUCH YOU STUPID FUCKING IDIOT.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 16, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, Mao sent everything backwards with his policies. Again, he presided over the biggest genocide in history. 50. Million. His policies nearly destroyed China, its only because of the falling out with the Soviet Union and befriending of America that the Communist Party survived in China to the 21st Century.
> Stalin:
> 
> That's when they were still allied AND before the Cold War. And again, Stalin killed 37 million people in his purges, 7.5 million people in Ukraine through the Holodomor, and was planning yet ANOTHER Holocaust right after World War II even after Hitler's final solution horrified the world.



Stalin's soviet union defeated Germany you shouldn't forget but you obviously did. 



> Ignoring that the Soviet Union conquered half of Europe after World War II, Stelios? How is that not meddling in an international stage? Not to mention propping up communist dictators all over the world, encouraging North Korea to invade South Korea, etc.



You really have no historic memory do you? You totally forget about USA's  support to right-wing dictators like Pinochet, Rios, Videla, Papadopoulos and i m pretty sure there are a few more I don't remember.





> You are ignorant on history if you claim the US is the worse.



I m pretty sure that nobody else in world history has nuked another nation except USA 



Have you ever considered that maybe just maybe your government is on the wrong? Or wondered about the other side of the coin?


team america
fuck yeah
they come to save the motherfucking world
oh yeah


----------



## Rain (Oct 16, 2015)

SSM you are literally the single worst poster on the internet i've ever come across.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 16, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Stalin's soviet union defeated Germany you shouldn't forget but you obviously did.


Correction: the Allies defeated Nazi Germany, which Stalin was part of. Stalin couldn't have held the Eastern Front without the US and Britain fighting in the Western Front and North Africa. 




> You really have no historic memory do you? You totally forget about USA's  support to right-wing dictators like Pinochet, Rios, Videla, Papadopoulos and i m pretty sure there are a few more I don't remember.


I remember them, Stelios. My point is: the Soviet Union did the exact same thing. And Russia is trying to continue that.






> I m pretty sure that nobody else in world history has nuked another nation except USA


Okay, now you've REALLY became stupid. You know what led up to the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Soviet Union invasion of Manchuria.Massive Allied Invasion was being planned that would have incurred _one million US deaths_...with _12 million Japanese deaths._ The Atomic Bombings saved Japan since it forced them to surrender. Even the Japanese Government has admitted to such.


> Have you ever considered that maybe just maybe your government is on the wrong? Or wondered about the other side of the coin?
> 
> 
> team america
> ...


God you're so fucking stupid. That's an opinion poll, it doesn't fit facts. You are truly brainwashed.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 16, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Okay, now you've REALLY became stupid. You know what led up to the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Soviet Union invasion of Manchuria.Massive Allied Invasion was being planned that would have incurred _one million US deaths_...with _12 million Japanese deaths._ The Atomic Bombings saved Japan since it forced them to surrender. Even the Japanese Government has admitted to such.



Wiki


> On the basis of available evidence, however, it is clear that the two atomic bombs… alone were not decisive in inducing Japan to surrender. Despite their destructive power, the atomic bombs were not sufficient to change the direction of Japanese diplomacy. The Soviet invasion was. Without the Soviet entry in the war, the Japanese would have continued to fight until numerous atomic bombs, a successful allied invasion of the home islands, or continued aerial bombardments, combined with a naval blockade, rendered them incapable of doing so.






> God you're so fucking stupid. That's an opinion poll, it doesn't fit facts. You are truly brainwashed.



The opinion poll is to make you consider that maybe your government has gone wrong sometime , somewhere. But by your reply I doubt you have the capacity to do so.


----------



## hcheng02 (Oct 16, 2015)

Stelios said:


> *I m not a historian but Mao has also been credited for modernizing china and promoting women's position in society.  Plus during his reign China's population increased dramatically. *
> 
> Stalin:
> US-President Harry S. Truman:
> ...



LOL WHUT. Mao Zedong didn't modernize shit in China. His Great Leap Forward is one of the biggest disasters in government planning ever. He had farmers work day and night under penalty of torture and death to melt their iron tools to make shitty useless steel in their backyard furnaces instead of planting food. The result was one of the biggest famines in modern history that killed 30-50 million people. Then you have the Cultural Revolution which.caused even more chaos. You know how you have Twitter mobs that like to call out and gang up on people to judge them and destroy their livelihoods right now? The Cultural Revolution was basically that but where the Twitter e-accusers are changed into flesh and blood people who can actually torture and kill you in real life. 

China was a basketcase until Deng Xiaoping took over and tossed away Mao's policies. Deng Xiaoping is the guy responsible for China's modernization, not Mao.



Stelios said:


> Wiki
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you actually fucking quoting Wikipedia as proof? Christ.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 16, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Wiki


...you really ARE this stupid. I already CITED the invasion of Manchuria by the Soviet Union.



> The opinion poll is to make you consider that maybe your government has gone wrong sometime , somewhere. But by your reply I doubt you have the capacity to do so.


Of course the government has done wrong, but its done a lot of right. You love to whitewash what Russia and China have done though to make them superior, which is why you are not really that smart.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 16, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...you really ARE this stupid. I already CITED the invasion of Manchuria by the Soviet Union.
> 
> 
> Of course the government has done wrong, but its done a lot of right. You love to whitewash what Russia and China have done though to make them superior, which is why you are not really that smart.



I never called them superior I dare you to find a post I made where it says they are. Sounds like your inferiority complex kicking in


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 16, 2015)

Stelios said:


> I never called them superior I dare you to find a post I made where it says they are. Sounds like your inferiority complex kicking in


You sure act it. You ignore everything Russia and China's done and insist the the United States is the bigger evil.


----------



## Chainwave (Oct 16, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Pfft this is hilarious. You truly have been brainwashed by Russian and China propoganda. You forget the Hodomor which Russia caused, Stalin's purges and planned new Holocaust before hid death, and China making the biggest genocide EVER under Mao. 'More wrongs to the world'? Don't make me fucking laugh.



For the record, you're talking about the Soviet Union, not Russian Federation. Also you're talking about Soviet Union under Stalin. Also the Soviet Union came clean with Stalin's crimes, despite how unpopular that decision was. If I waited for the day, when America admits their faults and crimes, I'd be waiting forever. Also Americans have no problems allying with countries that were or are led by genocidal institutions.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 16, 2015)

Chainwave said:


> For the record, you're talking about the Soviet Union, not Russian Federation. Also you're talking about Soviet Union under Stalin. Also the Soviet Union came clean with Stalin's crimes, despite how unpopular that decision was. If I waited for the day, when America admits their faults and crimes, I'd be waiting forever. Also Americans have no problems allying with countries that were or are led by genocidal institutions.


America has and does that, Chainwave. And the Russian Federation is repeating the same mistakes.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Oct 16, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You sure act it. You ignore everything Russia and China's done and insist the the United States is the bigger evil.



United States is led by evil people and its just that the stupid voters that inhabit it are too damn stupid to believe anything.
Idiots dismiss anything as a conspiracy theory if it involves something negative about government and the officials. 

I guess Obama didn't give the order to bomb that hospital or it was some kind of mishap.
Surely if Putin had done it, he would have been treated the same as Obama 
Surely if Putin dropped weapons to the rebels, no one would ever think that its ISIS thats getting the weapon caches. Oh wait, I'm sure some of you would say Assad's men are getting the weapon drops :ho

Oh and Bush gets to invade Iraq under they "They gots dem WMDs" and Saddam gets labeled the patsy while Osama, the guy US funded in 1980s gets labeled the culprit/boogieman of 911 :ho

Yeah, United States is good.


----------



## epyoncloud (Oct 17, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The latter stuff I mentioned was post-World War 2. *Mao killed 50,000,000 people. *Stalin was going to do another Holocaust within his own borders before his death in 1953. And bringing these up shows that Russia and China have never had their hands clean. Hell they've been doing some of the most evil acts in history. Yet you go' America's foreign polcy has caused more wrongs' to show you have no idea what you're talking about.





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> *No, Mao sent everything backwards with his policies. Again, he presided over the biggest genocide in history. 50. Million..* His policies nearly destroyed China, its only because of the falling out with the Soviet Union and befriending of America that the Communist Party survived in China to the 21st Century
> 
> .






you might as well start collecting statistics about how many women Japan raped and tortured from 1900 to now, Mr Statistics.

the country that US supports now has commited major war crimes and atrocities against womenkind and deserve a hitler trophy .


----------



## Blue_Panter_Ninja (Oct 17, 2015)

It's good that ISIL/Daesh is getting BTFO.


----------



## epyoncloud (Oct 17, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You are ignorant on history if you claim the US is the worse.



individually no. But if you combined how many people the west/white man (exclude russia) has killed and enslaved, I am pretty sure its up there in 10s to 100s of millions.

Why don't you bring out Genghis Khan in kill count and genocide.

Also how would you know fascist japan will kill less than Mao if Japan rules China now instead of communists?


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 17, 2015)

Rain said:


> Bakunin was a mistake.
> 
> 
> 
> It will be a dictatorship by the working class and their allies ( small peasants, artists, revolutionary intellectuals etc..) over all other classes like the society we live in right now is dictatorship by the bourgeoisie and it's own allies (bourgeoise politicians of all countries, military , police etc...) until they are politically (and physically if needed) eradicated. By ending capitalism, we shall also do away with market which creates artificial sense of scarcity. Most competent members in different fields will be leaders, but *no one will have monopoly of power over others* as the means of production are held in common and private property doesn't exist. *The basis of exploitation is done away with.* Production will be scientifically centrally planned and not for market, but for satisfying human needs. This is possible even today as a result of technology revolutionizing the means of production up to this level we have today.



The only sensible reply I can give to this is lol. I believe this has been tried before, with tremendous success I might add.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 17, 2015)

epyoncloud said:


> you might as well start collecting statistics about how many women Japan raped and tortured from 1900 to now, Mr Statistics.
> 
> the country that US supports now has commited major war crimes and atrocities against womenkind and deserve a hitler trophy .



We support them after we totally destroyed them and saved the Communist China that you're orgasmic over.

And to the guy who said Mao modernized China? Not even the officials in the Communist Party. He caused the Great Famine and the Cultural Revolution. The man who modernized China is known as Deng Xiaoping.


----------



## Amanda (Oct 17, 2015)

I came here expecting discussion over the latest Syria news... Instead it's a Russia/China vs USA/West thread... Which thinking again is all that really matters. 

I wonder for how long the middle-easteners could go on killing each other in such masses if the rest of the world had no interests in the area.


----------



## Mael (Oct 17, 2015)

Amanda said:


> I came here expecting discussion over the latest Syria news... Instead it's a Russia/China vs USA/West thread... Which thinking again is all that really matters.
> 
> I wonder for how long the middle-easteners could go on killing each other in such masses if the rest of the world had no interests in the area.



What latest Syria news were you expecting?

It's all the same.  ISIS blows up ancient history.  Russia escalates.  Iran denies then admits its involvement on a heavier scale.  US airstrikes. 

Same old.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 17, 2015)

Amanda said:


> I came here expecting discussion over the latest Syria news... Instead it's a Russia/China vs USA/West thread... Which thinking again is all that really matters.
> 
> I wonder for how long the middle-easteners could go on killing each other in such masses if the rest of the world had no interests in the area.



You say this as if Syria matters all that much. It's just ass backwards country in the Middle East #16. 

Oh look, Mael's here.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 18, 2015)




----------



## epyoncloud (Oct 18, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> We support them after we totally destroyed them and saved the Communist China that you're orgasmic over.
> 
> And to the guy who said Mao modernized China? Not even the officials in the Communist Party. He caused the Great Famine and the Cultural Revolution. The man who modernized China is known as Deng Xiaoping.



He united a broken country,drove out the foreign imperialists and build a strong government ,thats good enough. Here's the bad guy that china needs at an age of war and violence. 

Here's like Oda nobunaga in Japan Oda Nobunaga does some horrible things but Japanese still wank his penis. The same logic applies.

Even if mao is all shit, he achieved something you americans suck at


----------



## Mael (Oct 18, 2015)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You say this as if Syria matters all that much. It's just ass backwards country in the Middle East #16.
> 
> Oh look, Mael's here.



Heya Cuckboard. 

Latest Syria news?  Turkey shot down a drone suspected to be Russian.  Putinwank is stronk.  Oil is still low in price so Russia/Iran will be facing a decent drop in revenue for military operations.  No US troop deaths.  Syria is now going to feel the sting of Iranian/Russian operations.

This isn't Sherman we're channeling, despite what the pro-Putes want.


----------



## hcheng02 (Oct 18, 2015)

epyoncloud said:


> He united a broken country,drove out the foreign imperialists and build a strong government ,thats good enough. Here's the bad guy that china needs at an age of war and violence.
> 
> Here's like Oda nobunaga in Japan Oda Nobunaga does some horrible things but Japanese still wank his penis. The same logic applies.
> 
> Even if mao is all shit, he achieved something you americans suck at



Except it was the Nationalist army lead by Chiang Kai Shek who did the bulk of the fighting against the Japanese and it was the Americans who beat the Japanese. Mao Zedong may have united the country, but he also inflicted some of the worst economic and political chaos it ever experienced because of his ego and incompetence. The Communist Party only pays homage because it would embarrass them too much to admit what a catastrophe his reign was. Deng Xiaoping pretty much abandoned everything Mao worked for since it kept killing too many people.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 18, 2015)

epyoncloud said:


> He united a broken country,drove out the foreign imperialists and build a strong government ,thats good enough. Here's the bad guy that china needs at an age of war and violence.
> 
> Here's like Oda nobunaga in Japan Oda Nobunaga does some horrible things but Japanese still wank his penis. The same logic applies.
> 
> Even if mao is all shit, he achieved something you americans suck at



1) Mao had almost nothing to do with driving out the foreign imperialists.The Japanese army spent the entirety of the war fighting Chiang Kai-shek, or chasing him further and further inland as he practiced some seriously devastating scorched earth tactics.

2) Mao did not build a strong government. It was erratic and dangerous. It closed itself off from all allies. It starved millions of people. He's not the guy that China needed, but rather the only guy that was left after Chiang burned his own country to the ground to prevent the Japanese from taking it too quickly.

3) The Communist Party itself detests Mao Zedong. He's given lip service as the founder of the movement, but the entire goal of the Party since Mao's death has been to assure that the disasters that he brought upon China, namely economic ruin and near civil-war, never again come to fruition.

But, hey, let's all love Mao.


----------



## epyoncloud (Oct 18, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> 1) Mao had almost nothing to do with driving out the foreign imperialists.The Japanese army spent the entirety of the war fighting Chiang Kai-shek, or chasing him further and further inland as he practiced some seriously devastating scorched earth tactics.
> 
> 2) Mao did not build a strong government. It was erratic and dangerous. It closed itself off from all allies. It starved millions of people. He's not the guy that China needed, but rather the only guy that was left after Chiang burned his own country to the ground to prevent the Japanese from taking it too quickly.
> 
> ...



he wouldn't have won if everyone hates him. Chiang was terrible and he mismanaged the country.Inflation skyrocketed to germany levels after WW2, and he was a militarist who oppressed the peasants and didn't do his market research.  He has twice the communist's strength and army power along with massive american aid after world war 2, and he still lost like a trainwreck. Stalin on the other hand, was just telling mao to make peace.


Please go read a book about the chinese revolution.Thats all I can say.
Mao's biggest flaw was that he thinks like trotsky, believing in permanent revolution and class struggle to solve everything, leading to disasters.

mao was as shit as Oda, but he was a tyrant that unified the country.Anyway, if you spam that kind of americanized crap in achinese forum, the people there would just laugh at your ignorance.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 18, 2015)

epyoncloud said:


> he wouldn't have won if everyone hates him. Chiang was terrible and he mismanaged the country.Inflation skyrocketed to germany levels after WW2, and he was a militarist who oppressed the peasants and didn't do his market research.  He has twice the communist's strength and army power along with massive american aid after world war 2, and he still lost like a trainwreck. Stalin on the other hand, was just telling mao to make peace.
> 
> 
> Please go read a book about the chinese revolution.Thats all I can say.
> ...



What was Americanized about it? I didn't say a single word about America. Me telling you the truth of what happened has nothing to do with America. I clearly said that Chiang killed large numbers of his own people. Of course with Chiang as a leader, people would look to Mao, especially with the success of the Soviets in modernizing.

Mao's biggest problem is that he thought making farmers make iron in their backyard was a good idea.

Also, what? Stalin telling Mao to make peace? That's just a blatant lie. The Soviet Army was occupying Northeast China and let Mao use it as a base of operations. They also supplied mone and weapons. Stalin making peace? Come on, you're better than that.

You didn't refute a single point I made.

1) You said Mao fought off the Japanese. That false as fuck. Chiang Kai-shek and his people mostly fought the Japanese (and were losing horribly). In the end, it was the arrival of the Soviets in China and America's utter annihilation of Japanese will that changed China.

2) You said he reunited the country. Well, when you defeat the other side of a civil war and take control of the nation, you have by definition, reunited it.

3) I could give a darn about what a bunch of hyper-nationalized Chinese nationals have to say about Mao Zedong.


----------



## Matariki (Oct 19, 2015)

Obama is weak. Russia and Iran pretty much own Syria now


----------



## Mael (Oct 19, 2015)

Bannai said:


> Obama is weak. Russia and Iran pretty much own Syria now



So?

/10char


----------



## Undertaker (Oct 19, 2015)

lol, you can`t own a clusterfuck


----------



## Mael (Oct 19, 2015)

Undertaker said:


> lol, you can`t own a clusterfuck



Kinda think Bannai is attempting trolling...


----------



## hcheng02 (Oct 19, 2015)

Bannai said:


> Obama is weak. Russia and Iran pretty much own Syria now



Russia has owned Syria for decades. Problem is that they used to own all of it and now they have to send troops in to keep a third of it.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 19, 2015)

hcheng02 said:


> Russia has owned Syria for decades. Problem is that they used to own all of it and now they have to send troops in to keep a third of it.


Basically.

Syria's Russia's vassal state. Well no. They have joint custody with Iran.

And said vassal has lost most of his country. And Russia's struggling to prevent the puppet from being completely destroyed.

Basically same story in Ukraine. They had all Ukraine. Now they're just struggling to keep a corner of it.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 20, 2015)

> A Path Out of the Middle East Collapse
> With Russia in Syria, a geopolitical structure that lasted four decades is in shambles. The U.S. needs a new strategy and priorities.
> 
> The debate about whether the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action with Iran regarding its nuclear program stabilized the Middle East’s strategic framework had barely begun when the region’s geopolitical framework collapsed. Russia’s unilateral military action in Syria is the latest symptom of the disintegration of the American role in stabilizing the Middle East order that emerged from the Arab-Israeli war of 1973.
> ...



Seems like Kissinger is also pro-putin by Mael standards


----------



## Zyrax (Oct 20, 2015)

Isn't Kissinger the same peace of shit who supported Pakistan in the 1971 Bangdalesh Genocide?
Who cares what he thinks


----------



## Mael (Oct 20, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Seems like Kissinger is also pro-putin by Mael standards



Well what you said was just stupid.


----------



## Jersey Shore Jesus (Oct 20, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> Isn't Kissinger the same peace of shit who supported Pakistan in the 1971 Bangdalesh Genocide?
> Who cares what he thinks



He is also for human depopulation. Literally fuck anything that comes out of that nazi collaborator's mouth.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Oct 20, 2015)

New Canadian PM Justin Trudeau announces CAF will end airstrikes over Iraq at a future date.

Note, what he's referring to is shifting the focus from air strikes to providing training and logistical support for anti-ISIS forces plus more humanitarian aid to refugees. Given the U.S. is doing 95% of the bombing campaign anyway, it's probably a more effective use of Canada's military resources.

On the other hand, ISIS propagandists will likely take the news and go "THE CRUSADER COALITION IS CRUMBLING BROTHERS! KEEP UP THE FIGHT! TAKBEER ALLAH ACKBAR!" in order to boost morale.


----------



## Mael (Oct 21, 2015)

*Three Russians killed in Syria: pro-government source*



> At least three Russians fighting alongside Syrian government forces were killed and several more wounded when a shell hit their position in the coastal province of Latakia, a senior pro-government military source said on Tuesday.
> 
> If confirmed, the deaths which occurred on Monday night would be the first known incidence of Russians being killed in Syria since Moscow began air strikes in support of President Bashar al-Assad on September 30.
> 
> ...


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/20/us-mideast-crisis-syria-russia-idUSKCN0SE1YO20151020

Not 100% verified but if so will be something to keep an eye on.  Granted, I have this feeling that public opinion of military casualties isn't the same in Moscow as it is here but maybe attitudes changed.


----------



## Mael (Oct 21, 2015)

*13 dead as Russia strike hits Syria field hospital: monitor*



> At least 13 people including medical staff were killed when Russian warplanes struck a field hospital in northwestern Syria, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said Wednesday.
> 
> "Thirteen people were killed in Russian air strikes on Tuesday on a field clinic in the town of Sarmin, including a physiotherapist, a guard, and civil defence member," the Observatory's Rami Abdel Rahman told AFP.
> 
> ...




Of course they're Russians, so the rage will not be as stronk.


----------



## Harbour (Oct 21, 2015)

oh that mass propaganda. be careful people, american government will strike your minds with bunch of bullshit information.


----------



## Mael (Oct 21, 2015)

Harbour said:


> oh that mass propaganda. be careful people, american government will strike your minds with bunch of bullshit information.



This was AFP, dipshit, which is primarily French.

You have any refuting sources?


----------



## Chelydra (Oct 21, 2015)

Who cares the Russians get a free pass to murder civilians


----------



## Kagekatsu (Oct 22, 2015)

U.S. bombs hospital: "THOSE PILOTS SHOULD BE TRIED AS WAR CRIMINALS! OBAMA SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF HIMSELF! FUCK AMERICA AND EVERYONE WHO LIVES THERE!

Russia bombs hospital: "Oh they were probably just terrorists anyway, no biggie, Russia Stronk, West Weak".


----------



## Megaharrison (Oct 22, 2015)

Kagekatsu said:


> U.S. bombs hospital: "THOSE PILOTS SHOULD BE TRIED AS WAR CRIMINALS! OBAMA SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF HIMSELF! FUCK AMERICA AND EVERYONE WHO LIVES THERE!
> 
> Russia bombs hospital: "Oh they were probably just terrorists anyway, no biggie, Russia Stronk, West Weak".



This is pretty much our human rights advocates verbatim.


----------



## Zaru (Oct 22, 2015)

Kagekatsu said:


> U.S. bombs hospital: "THOSE PILOTS SHOULD BE TRIED AS WAR CRIMINALS! OBAMA SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF HIMSELF! FUCK AMERICA AND EVERYONE WHO LIVES THERE!
> 
> Russia bombs hospital: "Oh they were probably just terrorists anyway, no biggie, Russia Stronk, West Weak".



In the same vein, people will bitch about Russia while defending the USA

Both sides are fucking hypocrites


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 22, 2015)

Chelydra said:


> Who cares the Russians get a free pass to murder civilians



We really shouldn't be surprised. I don't think they can miss a chance to kill people in a part of the world where people won't really care about it.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Oct 22, 2015)

Kagekatsu said:


> U.S. bombs hospital: "THOSE PILOTS SHOULD BE TRIED AS WAR CRIMINALS! OBAMA SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF HIMSELF! FUCK AMERICA AND EVERYONE WHO LIVES THERE!
> 
> Russia bombs hospital: "Oh they were probably just terrorists anyway, no biggie, Russia Stronk, West Weak".



Yeah but Doctors without Boarders was bombed and people here defended Obama 

Switch US and Obama with Russia and Putin and many of the people here won't make any excuses


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 22, 2015)

Mael said:


> Of course they're Russians, so the rage will not be as stronk.



Hey, whatever happened to "such is war"?! 



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> We really shouldn't be surprised. I don't think they can miss a chance to kill people in a part of the world where people won't really care about it.



And whatever happened to "stay out of a warzone, if you don't wanna be killed, stupid doctors"?! 

Or, in your own words:


Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Reason #306 that you shouldn't be in a war zone.



#306, Annex B
If you're bombed by Russians, even if in a warzone, it's their fault, not yours.


----------



## Mael (Oct 22, 2015)

Well SoG, that is still the case, but the point is the lack of caring when Russians do it.  But it's all right, the Putin Peen coddles you to sleep.


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 22, 2015)

Mael said:


> Well SoG, that is still the case, but the point is the lack of caring when Russians do it.  But it's all right, the Putin Peen coddles you to sleep.



Who's caring? The entirity of the west pretty much condemns Russia for getting involved in the first place. And there is no lack of media reports about Russian bombings of alleged moderates, civilans or Iran.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Oct 22, 2015)

> *First on CNN: American killed as hostages rescued in Iraq, sources say
> 
> By Barbara Starr and Jim Sciutto, CNN
> Updated 1524 GMT (2224 HKT) October 22, 2015 | Video Source: CNN*
> ...


----------



## Rain (Oct 22, 2015)

I'd have more respect for both the USA and Russia supporters if they just came out and honestly admitted it all boils down to interest of those countries rather than making false pretenses about helping opressed and bullshit how this or that intervention is for the good of the people or how one of them being world hegemon is better than the other one. Fuck your hegemons.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Oct 22, 2015)

Well, to be totally honest, USA has absolutely no interest in Syria except for blowing up ISIL.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 23, 2015)




----------



## Stelios (Oct 23, 2015)

> Putin urges joint US-Russia fight against Isis
> 
> 
> Vladimir Putin has renewed his call to the US and other western states for a joint campaign against Islamist terrorism in Syria, suggesting it could become a testing ground for a new model of global co-operation in tackling problems.
> ...


----------



## Mael (Oct 23, 2015)

Okay then how about actually bombing Islamic State?  You've got like fifteen multinational Intel sources saying you're not and only yours and Iran's saying yes.


----------



## Rain (Oct 23, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> Well, to be totally honest, USA has absolutely no interest in Syria except for blowing up ISIL.



> USA
> No interest in Middle East

Doesn't get much dumber than this.


----------



## Stelios (Oct 23, 2015)

Mael said:


> Okay then how about actually bombing Islamic State?  You've got like fifteen multinational Intel sources saying you're not and only yours and Iran's saying yes.



I m not Russian. 
But yes what about USA actually working with the Russians?
They can figure out together the whole "moderate" thing at a late time. 

Do we agree that the civil war should end and that the government should stand down through a democratic way? 

Or does it have to be like Libya? Assad's body dragged on streets by a mob etc?


----------



## Mael (Oct 23, 2015)

Stelios said:


> I m not Russian.
> But yes what about USA actually working with the Russians?
> They can figure out together the whole "moderate" thing at a late time.
> 
> ...



My tone was inferring to Russia's/Putin's.

Yes the civil war needs to end and the government should stand down through a democratic way.  Now Putes and Iran don't want that.  Everyone should be hitting Islamic State since they're the ones attracting idiotic Chechens and Westerners alike.  However seems like Moscow's not on board with that right now.


----------



## Undertaker (Oct 24, 2015)

Rain said:


> I'd have more respect for both the USA and Russia supporters if they just came out and honestly admitted it all boils down to interest of those countries rather than making false pretenses about helping opressed and bullshit how this or that intervention is for the good of the people or how one of them being world hegemon is better than the other one. Fuck your hegemons.



If only I understood what Russian interests exactly are. It looks like showing off and then what?



Mael said:


> My tone was inferring to Russia's/Putin's.
> 
> Yes the civil war needs to end and the government should stand down through a democratic way.  Now Putes and Iran don't want that.  Everyone should be hitting Islamic State since they're the ones attracting idiotic Chechens and Westerners alike.  However seems like Moscow's not on board with that right now.



It doesn`t answer the question why "the US has rebuffed Mr Putin?s appeals to co-operate in Syria"?

It`s like:
US: You are doing it wrong!
Russia: Ok, let`s do it together so you can influence final decisions.
US: Fuck you!
Russia: ?


----------



## stream (Oct 24, 2015)

That's because the only fast solution is to flatten all rebels and have Assad in power. Russia wants that to happen, but not the US. So the US have to let the crisis go on until there is a rebel group they like powerful enough to be elected "democratically".

The US should give up and accept Assad back.


----------



## Rain (Oct 24, 2015)

Undertaker said:


> If only I understood what Russian interests exactly are. It looks like showing off and then what?



Saving Assad regime as the last bastion of anti-globalization in the middle east which is very important to the Russian ruling class, the capitalists, for whom globalization spells complete disaster. Putin is not doing this because of ridiculous "national inferiority complex" or "russian conqueror genetics" bullshit that users here like to prattle about. Nationalism is just an instrument to gather support from the masses, in order to push interests of the ruling class. It has always been like that.

If you mean interests of Russian workers? No, there's nothing here for them.


----------



## Mael (Oct 25, 2015)

Incredibly dipshit OP. 



> He dismissed Syrian opposition claims that the Russian airstrikes killed civilians as "sheer nonsense," saying the aircraft have hit ammunition depots, bunkers and other targets away from populated areas. The ministry has released cockpit video to support its claims, just as the Pentagon did during the two Gulf wars.



Guess that hospital didn't count, huh?

*snip*


----------



## stream (Oct 25, 2015)

He may be right that Russian strikes kill _no more_ civilians than US ones


----------



## Megaharrison (Oct 25, 2015)

>4,000 casualties in Ukraine

So str000nk!


----------



## Mael (Oct 25, 2015)

stream said:


> He may be right that Russian strikes kill _no more_ civilians than US ones



Are you retarded?

Are  you really going to take that line about the "clear" difference from Grozny at face value?


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 25, 2015)

*Tony Blair Says Iraq War Helped Give Rise to ISIS*



> *Tony Blair Says Iraq War Helped Give Rise to ISIS*
> 
> By KIMIKO DE FREYTAS-TAMURA
> 
> ...


----------



## Amanda (Oct 25, 2015)

You don't say?

But worry not, the only responsibility the likes of you will have to carry is guilty conscience - and that too only applies to those who have one.

By the way, remember Freedom Fries? How satisfying to know you never took part in a shared madness but saw the truth since day one.


----------



## Dark Forces (Oct 25, 2015)

he's just a step away from apologizing for the millions of direct and indirect victims he caused with lies along with his friend bush

c'mon tony you can do it


----------



## Amanda (Oct 26, 2015)

stream said:


> He may be right that Russian strikes kill _no more_ civilians than US ones




Finally USA and Russia have something to bond over. They should make friendship bracelets out of the bone shards of the dead civilians.


----------



## Saishin (Oct 26, 2015)

> *US and Saudis vow to step up war on Assad in defiance of Russia*
> 
> Two countries agreed to increase support to Syria's moderate opposition while seeking a political resolution of the four-year conflict
> 
> ...


----------



## Matariki (Oct 26, 2015)

Haha, good luck with that US xD


----------



## Mael (Oct 26, 2015)

Bannai said:


> Haha, good luck with that US xD



Man you're all about letting Russia's dick get Put-in your mouth huh?


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 26, 2015)

Bannai said:


> Haha, good luck with that US xD



Yeah, outright victory isn't possible while the FSA is still shit.

And the Kurds just don't have the numbers for an outright victory.

So the best solution now is an attritional war. That is, make it such a drain on Iran and Russia that they give up and agree to a negotiated settlement.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 26, 2015)

If the US actually cared (they don't), they would try and train the Syrian refugees into an army.

Of the 3 million, they probably could find a good 250k who are fit to fight and would be willing to do so if the US provided a stipend for their family.

In total that probably would cost between $10-30 billion.


----------



## Mael (Oct 27, 2015)

*Parents receive body of first Russian to die in Syria, doubt suicide*



> The body of the first Russian serviceman confirmed dead in four weeks of air strikes in Syria was delivered on Tuesday to his parents, who said they were not convinced by the military's account that their 19-year-old son had hanged himself.
> 
> In an interview with Reuters at their home in southern Russia before they received the body of their son Vadim, Alexander and Svetlana Kostenko said their son had sounded cheerful over the phone as recently as Saturday, the day he died while working at an air base on the Syrian coast.
> 
> ...



http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/27/us-mideast-crisis-syria-russia-idUSKCN0SL1I720151027

Well that's just bizarre...Kremlin that skittish after all that blustering?


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 27, 2015)

Mael said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/27/us-mideast-crisis-syria-russia-idUSKCN0SL1I720151027
> 
> Well that's just bizarre...Kremlin that skittish after all that blustering?



Oh yeah.

Lying about war dead has been common practice for them. Especially so in Ukraine.


----------



## Mael (Oct 27, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> Oh yeah.
> 
> Lying about war dead has been common practice for them. Especially so in Ukraine.



Shit's gonna hit the fan sooner or later when one crazy Sunni manages to get to a bunch of Russians.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 27, 2015)

Mael said:


> Shit's gonna hit the fan sooner or later when one crazy Sunni manages to get to a bunch of Russians.





I wonder how long it will take for an anti-war movement to actually succeed in Russia.

I mean, it only took 4 years with the last Czar.


----------



## Mael (Oct 27, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> I wonder how long it will take for an anti-war movement to actually succeed in Russia.
> 
> I mean, it only took 4 years with the last Czar.



But that was a world war.  It won't be the same here and Putin's got a lot of tools of bullshit at his disposal.


----------



## Chainwave (Oct 27, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> If the US actually cared (they don't), they would try and train the Syrian refugees into an army.
> 
> Of the 3 million, they probably could find a good 250k who are fit to fight and would be willing to do so if the US provided a stipend for their family.
> 
> In total that probably would cost between $10-30 billion.



Do you figure that once Assad is kicked out of Syria, Americans will promptly forget about it and leave it to be divided between ISIS, Qaeda/Nusra, and whoever opposes them? I haven't for a loong time heard of any major losses incurred by ISIS from American bombing, no progress done. Don't really see the US sticking around when they realize there's nothing to gain from Syria,

I'm curious how you see it, because the way I see it, if Assad manages to remain in power, then with the help of Russia and Iran he might have a millesimal chance of actually restoring order in the land. With him gone, who is left with any actual resolve, and capability to do such a thing?


----------



## KidTony (Oct 27, 2015)

Ashton Carter: U.S. to Begin 'Direct Action on the Ground' in Iraq, Syria



> Defense Secretary Ashton Carter said Tuesday that the U.S. will begin "direct action on the ground" against ISIS forces in Iraq and Syria, aiming to intensify pressure on the militants as progress against them remains elusive.
> 
> "We won't hold back from supporting capable partners in opportunistic attacks against ISIL, or conducting such missions directly whether by strikes from the air or direct action on the ground," Carter said in testimony before the Senate Armed Services committee, using an alternative name for the militant group.
> 
> ...



http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/sec-carter-direct-u-s-action-ground-iraq-syria-n452131

Well shit....


----------



## Megaharrison (Oct 27, 2015)

Mael said:


> http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/27/us-mideast-crisis-syria-russia-idUSKCN0SL1I720151027
> 
> Well that's just bizarre...Kremlin that skittish after all that blustering?



They did the same thing in Afghanistan, now they're doing it In Ukraine where thousands have died. They won't tell the families what happened and hide the casualties

Hezbollah used to do the same when the Syria war started, but now they've stopped giving a fuck as their losses are so high they can't hide it anymore and now there are daily funerals for multiple fighters in south Lebanon 

Iran is being stubborn too and isn't admitting to losses in Syria and Iraq even though videos and pics of dead IRGC are all over the place. Theres even a video of a Chinese J-7 being shot down over Iraq, and Iran is the only force in the area that has those


----------



## Mael (Oct 27, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> They did the same thing in Afghanistan, now they're doing it In Ukraine where thousands have died. They won't tell the families what happened and hide the casualties
> 
> Hezbollah used to do the same when the Syria war started, but now they've stopped giving a fuck as their losses are so high they can't hide it anymore and now there are daily funerals for multiple fighters in south Lebanon
> 
> Iran is being stubborn too and isn't admitting to losses in Syria and Iraq even though videos and pics of dead IRGC are all over the place. Theres even a video of a Chinese J-7 being shot down over Iraq, and Iran is the only force in the area that has those



Won't stop the Russian dick-suckers here of course. 

Welcome to your own quagmire, bitches.


----------



## Dark Forces (Oct 27, 2015)

> Tony Blair Says Iraq War Helped Give Rise to ISIS


why this headline was merged into the syria thread? syria and iraq are one and the same now?


----------



## Punished Pathos (Oct 27, 2015)

Chainwave said:


> I'm curious how you see it, because the way I see it, if Assad manages to remain in power, then with the help of Russia and Iran he might have a millesimal chance of actually restoring order in the land. With him gone, who is left with any actual resolve, and capability to do such a thing?



I'm sorry that my fellow Americans would rather see Assad dead and for Syria to end up like Libya and Iraq.
They'd rather support our Government that marches troops into M.E over WMD lies and supposed Chemical attacks


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Oct 27, 2015)

Dead in iraq = 1 million
Dead in ukraine - 5000
STFU Mael with your antirussian BS. You have been so brainwashed you cant see the truth.


----------



## Mael (Oct 27, 2015)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> *Dead in iraq = 1 million*
> Dead in ukraine - 5000
> STFU Mael with your antirussian BS. You have been so brainwashed you cant see the truth.



Top kek.  That is such a bullshit statistic of one million and you know it.

But stay mad you pathetic little Eurotrash.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 27, 2015)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Dead in iraq = 1 million
> Dead in ukraine - 5000
> STFU Mael with your antirussian BS. You have been so brainwashed you cant see the truth.


You're an idiot as always, GaraOfTheDesert1. First of all, it was 250,000 dead over 11 years of war. Death in Ukraine is 5000 in just MONTHS.

Why the hell haven't you been banned for being such a troll?


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Oct 27, 2015)

You see the thing is that its already over in Ukraine you fucktard....
I dont give a darn... keep being brainwashed by the MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX which has lobbied your country to hell.... I live in a democracy you live in a fucking oligarchy... go have a few more wars in maybe Iran next time (?) -( u have people like Ted Cruz and Netanyahu) talking about it -  and create more terrorists I dont give a darn.
I hope muslims go 911 on your moms pussy... maybe you ll learn your lesson one day Mael..


----------



## Mael (Oct 27, 2015)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> You see the thing is that its already over in Ukraine you fucktard....
> I dont give a darn... keep being brainwashed by the MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX, go have a few more wars in maybe Iran next time (?) - u have people like Ted Cruz and Netanyahu talking about it -  and create more terrorists I dont give a darn.



Hahahaha this guy right here...man...Xanax is the true solution for you. 

Don't give a darn?  Stop posting.


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Oct 27, 2015)

I ll post whatever the fuck I want....
Be a patriot and go bomb some more children to spread freedom while your saudi friends rape and pillage ignorant fucktard.


----------



## Mael (Oct 27, 2015)

Yessssssssss feed me your butthurt anger. 

Keep wanking Russia and writing off Grozny.


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Oct 27, 2015)

I dont need to wank Russia. 
*I know 100% who is at the right place morally right now...*
I am pretty sure your country supported the coup in Ukraine as well as the "moderate jihadists" in Syria. Why I know that ? Because history repeats itself. You did in a lot of countries like Iran in 1953. 
I dont even need to support my position. I admire many americans who are intelligent and not afraid to speak out (not pussies like you obviously) Oliver Stone has said it best " CIA fingerprints are all over Ukraine".
You can write it off as a conspiracy but thats the reality.....


----------



## Dark Forces (Oct 27, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You're an idiot as always, GaraOfTheDesert1. First of all, it was 250,000 dead over 11 years of war. Death in Ukraine is 5000 in just MONTHS.
> 
> Why the hell haven't you been banned for being such a troll?



what the hell do you think you know? the death toll can be anywhere between 250,000 and 2,500,000

nobody can tell accurately what happened over a decade in such a huge country that has been even since plunged into deep instability, especially when the US military has been doing everything it could, including killing, to prevent an accurate estimation from happening, and we all know why

even if it was 250,000 which sounds like a ridiculously underestimated figure to me, try to imagine what hell the US would be if some foreign country invaded it to slaughter 250,000 civilians, and you might understand how a barbaric organization such as isis could have arisen, it is simply the reflect of the US barbarity, and no country where every man lost at least a relative could remain sane

so yeah, when tony says the invasion led to the rise of isis, all i can say is "no shit sherlock"


----------



## Mael (Oct 27, 2015)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> I dont need to wank Russia.
> *I know 100% who is at the right place morally right now...*
> I am pretty sure your country supported the coup in Ukraine as well as the "moderate jihadists" in Syria. Why I know that ? Because history repeats itself. You did in a lot of countries like Iran in 1953.
> I dont even need to support my position. I admire many americans who are intelligent and not afraid to speak out (not pussies like you obviously) Oliver Stone has said it best " CIA fingerprints are all over Ukraine".
> You can write it off as a conspiracy but thats the reality.....



Man if only you had BelieveIt!'s spirit...your insanity would be unmatched.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Oct 27, 2015)

Gaaraofthedeseet, Russia has also claimed that the Ukraine is being ruled by both "Zionist Jews" and Nazis. That sheer gap of logic alone should put their claims of altruism in Syria into question.

BTW, from the sounds of it, that much hyped Russia-SAA offensive that was supposed to turn the tide of the war in Assad's favor is already stalling since the rebels are tearing Assad's armor to shreds with the TOW launchers. Russia can drop as many bombs as it wants and it won't change the fact that the Sunnis will not accept rule under Assad and are perfectly willing to continue this conflict for years if necessary. Add the SAA basically reduced to plugging conscripts to keep he line stable, Iran silently bleeding blood and treasure, and Russia's economic death spiral and I find it hard to believe Assad is the simple answer to destroying ISIS and ending this war.


----------



## epyoncloud (Oct 28, 2015)

Mael said:


> Yessssssssss feed me your butthurt anger.
> 
> Keep wanking Russia and writing off Grozny.



islamo-russian-chinese alliance. starting world war 5 and invading a country near you!


----------



## Doc Mindstorm (Oct 28, 2015)

Mael said:


> Yessssssssss feed me your butthurt anger.
> 
> Keep wanking Russia and writing off Grozny.


And then he speaks about moral right that russia have  - guys literally blood bathed little republic with size of 4 Rhode Islands 'cause it wanted independence labeling all separatists as terrorists and now they doing exact same in Ukraine but on opposite side(note that Chechnya did not had any other country to *back them up* to send their troops under disguise of separatists) this kind of hypocrites is modern day russian government - just by looking at them i often aks myself that: do we really living in 21st. century?

PS. anyway russia already done for since they allied themselves with shiites and openly confront against one billion(roughly) sunni - good luck them with that they really gonna need it.


----------



## Mael (Oct 28, 2015)

*Islamic State on recruitment spree in Russia*



> By ARSEN MOLLAYEV and VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV, Associated Press
> 
> MAKHACHKALA, Russia ? The Russian province of Dagestan, a flashpoint for Islamic violence in the North Caucasus, is feeding hundreds of fighters to the Islamic State in Syria ? and now some are coming back home with experience gained from the battlefield.
> 
> ...





Well that's fucking peachy.


----------



## Mael (Oct 30, 2015)

*US strike kills former German rapper who joined Islamic State*



> A former German rapper who participated in propaganda videos for Islamic State and sought to lure foreigners to the militant group has been killed in a U.S. airstrike in Syria, two U.S. officials said on Thursday.
> 
> Born in Berlin, Denis Cuspert was once a popular rapper known by the name "Deso Dogg." But he turned his focus toward militant Islam and joined Islamic State in 2012.
> 
> ...




Good riddance to bad rubbish.


----------



## Mael (Oct 30, 2015)

*U.S. to Deploy Special Operations Forces in Syria: Official*



> The White House will announce Friday that a small number of U.S. special operations forces will be sent into Syria, according to a senior U.S. official.
> 
> The senior U.S. official said that the forces will be stationed in northern Syria and working alongside groups with a proven track record of fighting ISIS. The move will be described as a "shift" but not a "change" in U.S. strategy against ISIS, the official added.
> 
> ...


http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-deploy-special-operations-forces-syria-official-n454506

Not too thrilled about this but since Russia continues its fuckery...


----------



## Zaru (Oct 30, 2015)

Would like to hear Mega's input on that supposed jamming device that the Ruskies put up in Syria to basically blind the NATO and test out its capabilities (while not messing with Israel for political reasons)

Pro-russian bullshit or cause for the NATO to sweat bullets?


----------



## Zyrax (Oct 30, 2015)

Dark Forces said:


> what the hell do you think you know? the death toll can be anywhere between 250,000 and 2,500,000
> 
> nobody can tell accurately what happened over a decade in such a huge country that has been even since plunged into deep instability, especially when the US military has been doing everything it could, including killing, to prevent an accurate estimation from happening, and we all know why
> 
> ...


Technically British Barbarity caused this
Who told Eisenhower that Mossadeq was a pro Soviet Communist and preassured him to topple him which caused this whole BS? the British
As a matter of fact who signed Sykes Picot? The British
Who Helped the Saud family and their wahhabism gain power in Arabia rather over the Hashemites? The British
Who created a puppet state in Kuwait ? The British 

I may disagree with American Foriegn Policy but I just laugh at how you arrogant Europeans act like you weren't way worse than them before you destroyed yourselfs in the stupid dick size contest that was the World Wars


----------



## Hand Banana (Oct 30, 2015)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> I dont need to wank Russia.
> *I know 100% who is at the right place morally right now...*
> I am pretty sure your country supported the coup in Ukraine as well as the "moderate jihadists" in Syria. Why I know that ? Because history repeats itself. You did in a lot of countries like Iran in 1953.
> I dont even need to support my position. I admire many americans who are intelligent and not afraid to speak out (not pussies like you obviously) Oliver Stone has said it best " CIA fingerprints are all over Ukraine".
> You can write it off as a conspiracy but thats the reality.....



Aren't you that guy who thinks i*c*st is ok?


----------



## Sunuvmann (Oct 30, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> Technically British Barbarity caused this
> Who told Eisenhower that Mossadeq was a pro Soviet Communist and preassured him to topple him which caused this whole BS? the British
> As a matter of fact who signed Sykes Picot? The British
> Who Helped the Saud family and their wahhabism gain power in Arabia rather over the Hashemites? The British
> ...



Yeahhh, ngl, Britain's track record on the middle east has been extremely ham handed at best.

Ending the Ottoman empire is probably one of the biggest mistakes of the 20th century (after the Treaty of Versailles and its punitive treatment of Germany)


----------



## Saishin (Oct 30, 2015)

> *Rival powers gather for first talks over Syria's civil war*
> 
> Iran and Saudi Arabia are among the bitter rivals meeting for the first time to discuss Syria's crisis
> 
> ...


----------



## Jin-E (Oct 30, 2015)

Why do they even bother lol. Each party is arming their proxy to the teeth as we speak.


----------



## Dark Forces (Oct 30, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> Technically British Barbarity caused this



hmm right, the arm that slaughters is totally innocent as long as it is misled


----------



## Zyrax (Oct 30, 2015)

Dark Forces said:


> hmm right, the arm that slaughters is totally innocent as long as it is misled


Ironic you say that
especially when the british literally blame everyone for their own fuck ups 


Its the Polish Immigrants fault that you banned holding Knifes in public 

Its the Pakistanis fault that most of your males are stupid Chavs

Its the EUs fault that your people lack the innovation  they used to have 

Literally nothing is the fault of the British

Europeans should have Listened to DeGaulle and let you rot when you were turning into a third world country in the 1960's so that you can't Blame Brussels everytime someone sneezes like you do now


----------



## Stelios (Oct 30, 2015)

Mael said:


> http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-deploy-special-operations-forces-syria-official-n454506
> 
> Not too thrilled about this but since Russia continues its fuckery...


Duuuurrrrrrr team America fuck yeah 




Zaru said:


> Would like to hear Mega's input on that supposed jamming device that the Ruskies put up in Syria to basically blind the NATO and test out its capabilities (while not messing with Israel for political reasons)
> 
> Pro-russian bullshit or cause for the NATO to sweat bullets?



Good question


----------



## Mael (Oct 30, 2015)

Stelios with the idiot pickup.  Don't you have more Muscovite ass to kiss?


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 30, 2015)

Mael just stfu already. Russia watched long enough how you and your buds tried your bestest to oust their ally Assad over the dead bodies of over 200k people, you can't blame them for stepping in now to counter your actions. I mean, you're free to do so anyway, but it will only make you look like a hypocrite. So, nothing new there.


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 30, 2015)

> *Syria peace talks pin hopes for end to war on Iran and Saudi Arabia
> 
> Syrian regime and opposition not invited to Vienna, with two regional powers yet to show any signs of wanting to compromise*
> 
> ...


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/30/syria-peace-talks-vienna-iran-saudi-arabia

Seems like Russia's bombs are starting to show results.


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 30, 2015)

> *Syria war: Will Vienna talks signal compromise over Assad?*
> _
> Bridget Kendall
> 30 October 2015
> ...


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34669392


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 30, 2015)

Dark Forces said:


> why this headline was merged into the syria thread? syria and iraq are one and the same now?



Don't expect logic to get in the way of Mega's agenda. But hey, if you were a real admin you could do something about it, right?!


----------



## Kagekatsu (Oct 30, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/30/syria-peace-talks-vienna-iran-saudi-arabia
> 
> Seems like Russia's bombs are starting to show results.



Yeah, good luck with that. Iran, Russia and the Gulf States have invested too much to call it quits, and neither Assad or the rebels were invited anyway so this discussion is moot. Assad will never regain complete control of the country, even if the rebels were driven from Aleppo and Idlib and ISIS collapses he would have to deal with an insurgency from an Sunni population that utterly despise him for years to come. That's not counting how his army is nothing more than a collection of conscripts and tribal militias since the more professional SAA units either got wrecked in costly holding actions against rebel offensives, defected to the rebels, or deserted and fled to Europe. And of course there's the massive, *massive* costs of rebuilding infrastructure which neither Iran or Russia are capable of fronting, and the millions of refugees that fled probably won't find any reason wanting to come back.

As to your assertion that Russian air power is making a difference:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M[/YOUTUBE]

Assad's armor is getting fucked six ways from Sunday by rebel anti-tank units and his much vaunted offensive has stalled and even lost ground in several areas. Air strikes mean nothing unless you have a competent ground force that can sustain territorial advances. The Syrian Arab Army is not one of those forces.

By contrast, see the Kurds. Thanks to the USAF, they've been wrecking ISIS' shit since Day 1 and Obama just announced we're going to give them even more support, and fuck what Sultan Erdogan of Istanbul says.


----------



## Jin-E (Oct 30, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Mael just stfu already. Russia watched long enough how you and your buds tried your bestest to oust their ally Assad over the dead bodies of over 200k people, you can't blame them for stepping in now to counter your actions. I mean, you're free to do so anyway, but it will only make you look like a hypocrite. So, nothing new there.



Except that has not been the US goal at all and especially now given their exclusive focus on ISIS. The US merely wants a managed "transition" similar to the one happening in Yemen, basically removing Assad _eventually_ while incorporating a handful of rebels/opposition in token positions. Regime change has never really been on the agenda.

I believe that if it hadn't been for the fact that the regimes extreme brutality made cooperation too morally awkward for the US, the Obama administration would probably have long ago rehabilitated Assad.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Oct 30, 2015)

Jin-E said:


> Except that has not been the US goal at all and especially now given their exclusive focus on ISIS. The US merely wants a managed "transition" similar to the one happening in Yemen, basically removing Assad _eventually_ while incorporating a handful of rebels/opposition in token positions. Regime change has never really been on the agenda.
> 
> I believe that if it hadn't been for the fact that the regimes extreme brutality made cooperation too morally awkward for the US, the Obama administration would probably have long ago rehabilitated Assad.



I'll just fill in for SoG here: "LOGIC AND RATIONAL DEBATE IS FOR FAT IDIOT AMERICANSKI! RUSSIA/IRAN STRONK! WEST WEAK!"

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37OEzyTqfWE[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Son of Goku (Oct 30, 2015)

Kagekatsu said:


> As to your assertion that Russian air power is making a difference:



Russia AND Iran are now sitting at the table in Vienna instead of being ignored. That's what I call "starting to show results".



Jin-E said:


> Except that has not been the US goal at all and especially now given their exclusive focus on ISIS. The US merely wants a managed "transition" similar to the one happening in Yemen, basically removing Assad _eventually_ while incorporating a handful of rebels/opposition in token positions. Regime change has never really been on the agenda.
> 
> I believe that if it hadn't been for the fact that the regimes extreme brutality made cooperation too morally awkward for the US, the Obama administration would probably have long ago rehabilitated Assad.



What immense bullshit  



> *Assad must go, Obama says*
> 
> By Scott Wilson and Joby Warrick August 18,* 2011 *
> 
> ...



Which is exactly why the US just watched (at the VERY best) while the Gulf states and NATO member Turkey propped up jihadists including the IS to fight Assad. And all the while it's just Iran who is branded a sponsor of terror for funding Hezbollah and at times Hamas. 


That uprising would've ended back then if it wasn't for the US and their allies pushing for regime change from the outside. Syria just wasn't ripe for a legitimate popular revolution.


----------



## Jin-E (Oct 30, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> What immense bullshit



Your own source has this tidbit:



> Many of Obama?s critics, including Senate hawks and human rights groups, questioned his reluctance to call for Assad?s ouster, a move opposed until recently by key regional U.S. allies such as Turkey and Saudi Arabia. The critics have compared it unfavorably to Obama?s more rapid decision to end support for now-ousted Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, a longtime U.S. ally.



Later events haven't changed that. The US administrations claimed policies have not been followed up by concrete acts that correspond to these verbal statements. Do you really think Assad would still be sitting if the US honestly saw his removal as something vital to their interest?

And as you note and bolded, this article was published in 2011, at the very infancy of the armed revolt, long before the Islamization of the conflict. 




> Which is exactly why the US just watched (at the VERY best) while the Gulf states and NATO member Turkey propped up jihadists including the IS to fight Assad. And all the while it's just Iran who is branded a sponsor of terror for funding Hezbollah and at times Hamas.



In order to apply political and military pressure to the regime to achieve a political settlement yes, nothing more. It has no interest at all in seeing the rebels march on to Damascus because of the possibility of an extremist takeover.





> That uprising would've ended back then if it wasn't for the US and their allies pushing for regime change from the outside. Syria just wasn't ripe for a legitimate popular revolution.



Utter patronizing nonsense. Even if the rebels had received no funding or weapons from abroad, the revolt would still have been ongoing since a significant amount of the weaponry they possess are weapons captured from the syrian army or obtained through the black market. There have been several insurgencies that have gone on for years or decades even without foreign support(F.example the Algerian Civil War).


----------



## Stelios (Nov 2, 2015)

> Beirut (AFP) - A major Syrian rebel group is using dozens of captives in metal cages as "human shields" in the largest opposition stronghold on the outskirts of Damascus, a monitor said Sunday.
> 
> Jaish al-Islam, regarded as the most powerful rebel group near the capital, has put regime soldiers and Alawite civilians it was holding in metal cages, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights told AFP.
> 
> ...


----------



## lucky (Nov 2, 2015)

these threads can get hard to follow.  would be good if new articles/page in thread are linked to op


----------



## Amanda (Nov 2, 2015)

Stelios said:


>




In metal cages? Shit, that's just hard to read...

I keep asking: ground forces when? This isn't going to end with mere air support and supplying weaponry, and everyone knows it. The longer we chicken out of our job the more people die.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Nov 2, 2015)

lol at the idiots that still support the removal/death of Assad 

*Looks at Iraq*
*Looks at Libya*


----------



## Stelios (Nov 2, 2015)

Where's Mael? I'd like to read some pro-rebel post now...


----------



## Mael (Nov 2, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Where's Mael? I'd like to read some pro-rebel post now...



When did I ever say I was pro-rebel?

I'm pro-Kurd.


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 2, 2015)

Why does the US even care about syria at this point? keeping face with the russians?


----------



## Amanda (Nov 2, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Why does the US even care about syria at this point? keeping face with the russians?




They damn straight don't care about the effect their failures are having on Europe. God help us survive this _friendship_.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Nov 2, 2015)

Because the US has a hard-on for being the world's leader in everything. It's part of our national security policy. If we're seen as trying to lead in all issues, even ones that we have no interest in like Syria, it is easier for us to take the lead on issues that actually matter to US without it seeming to be driven too much by personal interest.


----------



## Amanda (Nov 2, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> Because the US has a hard-on for being the world's leader in everything. It's part of our national security policy. If we're seen as trying to lead in all issues, even ones that we have no interest in like Syria, it is easier for us to take the lead on issues that actually matter to US without it seeming to be driven too much by personal interest.




Why would you even care about what it looks like? It's not like these political modesty blankets actually fooled anyone, it's all rethorics.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Nov 2, 2015)

Amanda said:


> Why would you even care about what it looks like? It's not like these political modesty blankets actually fooled anyone, it's all rethorics.



Lol, I personally don't care. But it's important to world leaders. Makes them feel like they're doing something.


----------



## Mael (Nov 2, 2015)

Amanda said:


> Why would you even care about what it looks like? It's not like these political modesty blankets actually fooled anyone, it's all rethorics.



Essentially it's about face and imagery.  When you've build a perception or appearance, you don't want to suddenly reveal oneself to be a monster even if it's likely the quickest and most effective solution.

As much as I loathe the Kremlin, I understand their mentality.  Being on the receiving end of a lot of brutal campaigns, the climate's been fostered that might makes right and that you can't play niceties with some folks who are believed to never be rational.  It explains their entire stance on Islam that's for sure.  It's crude but ultimately real.


----------



## Sferr (Nov 2, 2015)

Kagekatsu said:


> Assad's armor is getting fucked six ways from Sunday by rebel anti-tank units and his much vaunted offensive has stalled and even lost ground in several areas. Air strikes mean nothing unless you have a competent ground force that can sustain territorial advances. The Syrian Arab Army is not one of those forces.


Syrian Arab Army had gained a huge amount of territory south of Aleppo where the rebels have collapsed.



Kagekatsu said:


> By contrast, see the Kurds. Thanks to the USAF, they've been wrecking ISIS' shit since Day 1 and Obama just announced we're going to give them even more support, and fuck what Sultan Erdogan of Istanbul says.



Goog luck with that. Kurds are unable to cross Euphrates because as soon as they do, Turks start to bomb them. And are still bombing them and US does nothing/is unable to do anything about that.


----------



## Mael (Nov 2, 2015)

Sferr said:


> Goog luck with that. Kurds are unable to cross Euphrates because as soon as they do, Turks start to bomb them. And are still bombing them and US does nothing/is unable to do anything about that.



Maybe Turks can answer this for me.  What has Turkey really done for NATO?  Weren't all the missile bases removed from Turkey decades ago?


----------



## OutlawJohn (Nov 2, 2015)

Mael said:


> Maybe Turks can answer this for me.  What has Turkey really done for NATO?  Weren't all the missile bases removed from Turkey decades ago?



I worked at NATO HQ this summer for about two months and I found the Turks insufferable. Their demands at some of the meetings, especially when it comes to funding, where ridiculous. One of the unfortunate things about NATO is that, at this point, it's really not about being effective but about staying together. Even a nation that provides nothing to alliance, most of them in fact, seeing as US funds 76% of that shit, is never going to be ejected from the alliance for fear of total dissolution.

The only ones that pissed me off more were the French, who refused to spend a single a fucking euro on anything the cheap bastards.


----------



## Stelios (Nov 2, 2015)

Mael said:


> Maybe Turks can answer this for me.  What has Turkey really done for NATO?  Weren't all the missile bases removed from Turkey decades ago?



Pressure factor to Greece. Can't lose that three continent passage to Russians


----------



## Mael (Nov 2, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> I was worked at NATO HQ this summer for about two months and I found the Turks insufferable. Their demands at some of the meetings, especially when it comes to funding, where ridiculous. One of the unfortunate things about NATO is that, at this point, it's really not about being effective but about staying together. Even a nation that provides nothing to alliance, most of them in fact, seeing as US funds 76% of that shit, is never going to be ejected from the alliance for fear of total dissolution.
> 
> The only ones that pissed me off more were the French, who refused to spend a single a fucking euro on anything the cheap bastards.



Just as I thought...they're practically worthless.

Ugh...seriously I'm starting to not see the geopolitical risks of throwing one's entire weight behind the Kurds.  I highly doubt if the Kurds had complete American backing would you see as much pussyfooting around or dickery from Arab nations.


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 2, 2015)

The Kurds are GOAT of the region, which is the reason they get no love from anyone.


----------



## Mael (Nov 2, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> The Kurds are GOAT of the region, which is the reason they get no love from anyone.



More than teh l337 Isreal?


----------



## Amanda (Nov 2, 2015)

Sferr said:


> Goog luck with that. Kurds are unable to cross Euphrates because as soon as they do, Turks start to bomb them. And are still bombing them and US does nothing/is unable to do anything about that.




After this massive failure that was West's attempt to save Middle-East from itself has turned into an unwinnable forever war, the Kurds getting some freedom is the only moderately good result we have gotten out of it. Between them and Erodgan's Turkey... I'd choose Kurdistan. At least they're fighting ISIS and not just standing and letting it happen, or worse.


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 2, 2015)

Mael said:


> More than teh l337 Isreal?



Israel is down south, I was refering to the Iraq/Iran region.


----------



## Mael (Nov 2, 2015)

Amanda said:


> After this massive failure that was West's attempt to save Middle-East from itself has turned into an unwinnable forever war, the Kurds getting some freedom is the only moderately good result we have gotten out of it. Between them and Erodgan's Turkey... I'd choose Kurdistan. At least they're fighting ISIS and not just standing and letting it happen, or worse.



Not to mention they're the only religious/ethnic group not motivated to start spreading terrorism around for some inane ideals over a deity who has yet to show itself.


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 2, 2015)

.


----------



## Stelios (Nov 2, 2015)

Mael said:


> Just as I thought...they're practically worthless.
> 
> Ugh...seriously I'm starting to not see the geopolitical risks of throwing one's entire weight behind the Kurds.  I highly doubt if the Kurds had complete American backing would you see as much pussyfooting around or dickery from Arab nations.



Prokurd Americans sure... If they were so Prokurd they wouldn't have Greece deliver Otsalan to Turkey


----------



## Mael (Nov 2, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Prokurd Americans sure... If they were so Prokurd they wouldn't have Greece deliver Otsalan to Turkey



Because Greeks aren't Kurds.

Stop reinforcing the stereotype of your worthlessness.


----------



## Stelios (Nov 2, 2015)

Mael said:


> Because Greeks aren't Kurds.
> 
> Stop reinforcing the stereotype of your worthlessness.



Mael waves the American flag while crowing Russia and China as the devil yet he declares he's a ProKurd. Literally what the fuck


----------



## Mael (Nov 2, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Mael waves the American flag while crowing Russia and China as the devil yet he declares he's a ProKurd. Literally what the fuck



How are the two synonymous?


----------



## OutlawJohn (Nov 2, 2015)

Mael said:


> Just as I thought...they're practically worthless.
> 
> Ugh...seriously I'm starting to not see the geopolitical risks of throwing one's entire weight behind the Kurds.  I highly doubt if the Kurds had complete American backing would you see as much pussyfooting around or dickery from Arab nations.



I agree in the sense that I think in the long term, having a secular and Arab nation with full US support would go along way to calm the region down.

But the short term, I think it would be a disaster.  There are significant Kurd populations in Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria. Even if we just took a massive chunk out of the Syria to give to the Kurds for a nation, it would leave some serious questions in terms of the rest of the Kurds in the region. Best belief Turkey and Iran would make it national policy to shit on Kurds more than they're already doing and that would lead to some serious tension between the new Kurdish nation and it's too powerful neighbors. I also fear it would give Saudi a reason to further fund the spread of it's brand of Fundamental Islam, if it feared the US was finding a new best bud in the region.

I don't think any president ever will have the nads to take on that kind of instability for stability beyond their term.


----------



## Sferr (Nov 2, 2015)

Mael said:


> Maybe Turks can answer this for me.  What has Turkey really done for NATO?  Weren't all the missile bases removed from Turkey decades ago?


Their main purpose I believe is to check and piss off Russians.



Amanda said:


> After this massive failure that was West's attempt to save Middle-East from itself has turned into an unwinnable forever war, the Kurds getting some freedom is the only moderately good result we have gotten out of it. Between them and Erodgan's Turkey... I'd choose Kurdistan. At least they're fighting ISIS and not just standing and letting it happen, or worse.


Me too. Erdogan is ruining Turkey unfortunately by slowly turning into another your average Middle East state.



Mael said:


> Not to mention they're the only religious/ethnic group not motivated to start spreading terrorism around for some inane ideals over a deity who has yet to show itself.


They are not the only ones. There are Assyrians in Iraq who are still a relatively powerful group. Granted, a lot of them left Assyrian lands lately but they always can return Jewish-style. There are Ezidis (although you may consider them as Kurds). And as much as controversial Alawites are because they are the main power behind Assad, they too are pretty secular. There are also quite a bit of small ethnicities here and there that are pretty secular and tolerant. Iraqi Shia (which now rule Iraq) are questionable but they do help the Kurds, Iraqi Christians and even some peaceful Iraq Sunni tribes at the moment.


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 2, 2015)

>Supporting Kurds 
>Ever
LOL   

They are like Turkey's Girlfriend who thought the way he beated up other guys was "Hot" and Helped him beat up others many MANY times until he slapped Her And now she views him as a monster and expects the same people who she laughed at while he was beating them up to sympathy with her


----------



## Sferr (Nov 2, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> They are like Turkey's Girlfriend who thought the way he beated up other guys was "Hot" and Helped him beat up others many MANY times until he slapped Her And now she views him as a monster and expects the same people who she laughed at while he was beating them up to sympathy with her



That's kinda true, they did slaughter the Assyrians together with Turks back in the day but Assyrians and Kurds are allies at the moment.


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 2, 2015)

Sferr said:


> That's kinda true, they did slaughter the Assyrians together with Turks back in the day but Assyrians and Kurds are allies at the moment.


The Kurds ally with whoever Helps them
They also allied with the Soviets and al Qaeda and Literally Everyone
As a matter of fact the Non-Barzani Kurdish Tribes allied with the Arab and wanted to be a part of Iraq because they would rather be ruled by Arab than the Barzani tribe although Kurds deny this


----------



## Mael (Nov 2, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> The Kurds ally with whoever Helps them
> They also allied with the Soviets and al Qaeda and Literally Everyone
> As a matter of fact the Non-Barzani Kurdish Tribes allied with the Arab and wanted to be a part of Iraq because they would rather be ruled by Arab than the Barzani tribe although Kurds deny this



They're also one of the few sane ethnic groups there who understand you have to make deals with devils to survive.  

Dude I suggest stopping right now.  Your Druze status grants you shit to speak about Kurds.


----------



## Ernie (Nov 2, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> >Supporting Kurds
> >Ever
> LOL
> 
> They are like Turkey's Girlfriend who thought the way he beated up other guys was "Hot" and Helped him beat up others many MANY times until he slapped Her And now she views him as a monster and expects the same people who she laughed at while he was beating them up to sympathy with her



This is the truth, you know.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Nov 2, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> The Kurds ally with whoever Helps them
> They also allied with the Soviets and al Qaeda and Literally Everyone
> As a matter of fact the Non-Barzani Kurdish Tribes allied with the Arab and wanted to be a part of Iraq because they would rather be ruled by Arab than the Barzani tribe although Kurds deny this



Al-Qaeda?
That used to be the mujahideen back in the 80s


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 2, 2015)

Wait Zyrax is a druze?


----------



## Amanda (Nov 2, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> >Supporting Kurds
> >Ever
> LOL
> 
> They are like Turkey's Girlfriend who thought the way he beated up other guys was "Hot" and Helped him beat up others many MANY times until he slapped Her And now she views him as a monster and expects the same people who she laughed at while he was beating them up to sympathy with her




I'm aware of at least the Kurdish participation in the Armenian Genocide. But I'm talking about this day. No people in the region have clean papers, but if you look at who you can deal with in this very moment, the Kurds are high on the list. Higher than Erdogan, imo.


----------



## Mael (Nov 2, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Wait Zyrax is a druze?



Yes he is.


----------



## Ernie (Nov 2, 2015)

Druze, you say...


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 3, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> I agree in the sense that I think in the long term, having a secular and *Arab nation* with full US support would go along way to calm the region down.
> 
> But the short term, I think it would be a disaster.  There are significant Kurd populations in Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Syria. Even if we just took a massive chunk out of the Syria to give to the Kurds for a nation, it would leave some serious questions in terms of the rest of the Kurds in the region.



Did you just refer to Kurds as Arabs? Cause they're sure as hell not. They're an Iranian people.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 3, 2015)

> * Ergodan Vows to Stop US-Backed Kurds Advancing in Syria
> 
> Says Kurdish YPG Will Never Cross Euphrates River*
> 
> ...


----------



## Mael (Nov 3, 2015)

Erdo a shit.  Nothing changes.


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 3, 2015)

Why does Erdogan care about Syrian territory?
I can understand not wanting any Turkish controlled territory  being relinquished to the kurds
but what's behind hindering a Kurdish entity in Syria/Iraq?
Is it just spite, or is he afraid it would lead to demands concerning the turk-kurdish region?


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 3, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Why does Erdogan care about Syrian territory?
> I can understand not wanting any Turkish controlled territory  being relinquished to the kurds
> but what's behind hindering a Kurdish entity in Syria/Iraq?
> Is it just spite, *or is he afraid it would lead to demands concerning the turk-kurdish region?*



Yes to the bolded part.


----------



## Hand Banana (Nov 3, 2015)

So he is going to sacrifice his troops for nothing?


----------



## Amanda (Nov 3, 2015)

Wait, is Erdogan saying he will actively be fighting another player openly supported and armed by their own theoretical ally and fellow NATO member?

I won't even try anymore. RIP everyone. The last one turns off the lights.


----------



## Deer Lord (Nov 3, 2015)

On the one hand, it could pull Turky in the ploy and damage sultan erdogan 
on the other hand the Kurds will get fucked 


And the shitstorm in syria rages on with no end in sight...


----------



## Amanda (Nov 3, 2015)

Merkel, if you still want to negotiate with Turkey about more refugee camps on their soil in exchange for continuation of the EU membership discussions, now would be the time. 

And America, if you want to choose which one of your regional allies you prefer... yeah, now would be the time. 'Cause otherwise you'll just be supporting two sides fighting each other. Optimal use of time, money and effort!


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 3, 2015)

NaS said:


> So he is going to sacrifice his troops for nothing?



Erdogan? I doubt he will send troops anytime soon. Air raids will do for now. 

And what you mean by nothing? Preventing a Syrian-Kurdistan, and the threat it would pose for Turkey's national integrity, would be worth a few turkish deaths, in his mind.

I do think that he is being somewhat paranoid. But it's not inconcievable either to imagine a future scenario where a Syrian-Kurdistan that was allowed thrive could spur the secessionist movement among Kurds in Turkey. Of course that'd be Turkey's fault too, because of the decade long ill-treatment of the Kurds, but... oh well.


----------



## Megaharrison (Nov 3, 2015)

Here's an idea of what a bloody quagmire Iran has gotten itself into in Syria



Imagine how heavy their losses are, if Iran's bigwig warlord has had this many photops with top-level commanders who have died

No wonder Iran had to beg Russia to save them.


----------



## hcheng02 (Nov 3, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Here's an idea of what a bloody quagmire Iran has gotten itself into in Syria
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Damn, ISIS seems to have a bigger kill list on Hezbollah than the IDF does at this point. Or am I mistaken?


----------



## Megaharrison (Nov 3, 2015)

hcheng02 said:


> Damn, ISIS seems to have a bigger kill list on Hezbollah than the IDF does at this point. Or am I mistaken?



IDF killed around 800 in a month in 2006. Anti-Iranian forces in Syria have killed around 1,200-2,000 since 2012. So yeah they best us but only cuz of time.

ISIS has gotten very good at killing Iranian, Hezbollah. And Syria commanders for whatever reason. 32 Quds force officers in October alone. Maybe because human shields don't work on ISIS


----------



## Jin-E (Nov 4, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Here's an idea of what a bloody quagmire Iran has gotten itself into in Syria
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Seems like being on a photo with Soleimani is fast becoming a "kiss of death" lmao


----------



## OutlawJohn (Nov 4, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Did you just refer to Kurds as Arabs? Cause they're sure as hell not. They're an Iranian people.



Potato potataato. I was using the term as a general term for people in that area. Meant no offense.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 4, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> Potato potataato. I was using the term as a general term for people in that area. Meant no offense.



And I was just being a smartass, meant no offense either. 

I'd go with 'Middle-Eastern nation' to be precise.


----------



## Jin-E (Nov 5, 2015)

> Insurgents captured a town on a major highway in western Syria on Thursday, in a blow to the Russian-backed campaign against them, rebels and a monitoring group said.
> 
> Moscow's intervention in the war on the side of President Bashar al-Assad, ostensibly to fight Islamic State, has mostly hit other insurgents including more moderate groups, according to the U.S. State Department.
> 
> ...



http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/05/us-mideast-crisis-syria-idUSKCN0SU0XY20151105

The regime continues to lose ground despite the Russian airstrikes and thousands of foreign militias.


----------



## Amanda (Nov 5, 2015)

Still waiting for the Russian land force to arrive for more merriment and shared fun. They started speaking about "volunteers" in media even through at least until now such a phenomenon hasn't occurred (waiting for reactions to that downed plane), obviously to prepare for something.

And then there's Erodgan too. Can't wait to see his input. This charming little play isn't nearly over yet.


----------



## hcheng02 (Nov 5, 2015)

Apparently they found a new oil field in the Golan Heights. I'm sure this will improve things in Syria somehow.



> Black gold under the Golan
> 
> Geologists in Israel think they have found oil?in very tricky territory
> Nov 7th 2015 | From the print edition
> ...


----------



## Amanda (Nov 5, 2015)

hcheng02 said:


> Apparently they found a new oil field in the Golan Heights. *I'm sure this will improve things* in Syria somehow.




Not sure if sarcasm.


----------



## Mael (Nov 5, 2015)

Amanda said:


> Not sure if sarcasm.



It 100% is.


----------



## Unicornsilovethem (Nov 5, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> potataato



I don't think anyone says it like that.


----------



## Dark Forces (Nov 5, 2015)

there's a simple way to smash isis, stop buying oil from them

who am I fooling, as long as oil is cheap, who gives a fuck : 

/sarcasm


----------



## Sunuvmann (Nov 5, 2015)

I can't see Israel actually using that for petrostatehood. While maybe a few hundred billion dollars worth is no small amount to sneeze at, I'd think Israel probably would extract it and take it to a safer place to augment their strategic reserve.


----------



## Mael (Nov 5, 2015)

Dark Forces said:


> there's a simple way to smash isis, stop buying oil from them
> 
> who am I fooling, as long as oil is cheap, who gives a fuck :
> 
> /sarcasm



This was just retarded, what you said.

Like every company deliberately purchases from ISIS and every consumer knows it's ISIS-oil.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Nov 5, 2015)

Dark Forces said:


> there's a simple way to smash isis, stop buying oil from them
> 
> who am I fooling, as long as oil is cheap, who gives a fuck :
> 
> /sarcasm



This just in: cheap oil is actually bad for ISIS because they're making less money. The only people who knowingly buy ISIS oil are Assad, Assad and sometimes Turkey.


----------



## hcheng02 (Nov 5, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> I can't see Israel actually using that for petrostatehood. While maybe a few hundred billion dollars worth is no small amount to sneeze at, I'd think Israel probably would extract it and* take it to a safer place to augment their strategic reserve*.



Pretty much. It will probably cause less headaches this way too considering how the Golan Heights is technically not a part of Israel and thus Israel's right to extract the oil is somewhat legally questionable. Then again, as they say, possession is 9/10ths of the law. Its not like the international community is going to clamor for Israel to hand those fields back to Assad, ISIS, or Al Qaeda.


----------



## Zaru (Nov 6, 2015)

Mega just nuked another Sputnik thread, what makes you think this one will go better


----------



## Mael (Nov 6, 2015)

Bannai is an idiot, so clearly he doesn't learn.


----------



## Ernie (Nov 6, 2015)

Why did he delete the previous thread?

Muricans need to accept reality. I like your people, but your government is shit (zog). 


Good thread, Bannai. Cheers for that! And I agree, the US can learn a lot from Russia when it comes to dealing with terrorists. Russia did more against (in the beginning by the US and Israel funded) ISIL in a few days than the US Coalition in more than a year.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Nov 6, 2015)

Ernie said:


> Why did he delete the previous thread?
> 
> Muricans need to accept reality. I like your people, but your government is shit (zog).
> 
> ...



Some of my fellow Americans are too stupid and brainwashed  
Its okay tho.
People are conditioned to support their government when our forces get involved with M.E 
over supposed chemical attacks


----------



## Ernie (Nov 6, 2015)

Dat Pathos!


----------



## Punished Pathos (Nov 6, 2015)

Bannai said:


> Obama's half measures, like sending a dozen special forces, amount to nothing. He needs to swallow his pride and become Russia's junior partner in the Mid-East



Barry is doing a good job.
He blew up a Doctors without boarders hospital so that counts, right?  

Oh, that wasn't a half measure


----------



## Mael (Nov 6, 2015)

Punished Pathos said:


> Barry is doing a good job.
> He blew up a Doctors without boarders hospital so that counts, right?
> 
> Oh, that wasn't a half measure



Borders*

Confirmed for Metal Gear Dipshit.

But have fun, Slavs.


----------



## stream (Nov 6, 2015)

I happen to agree with the OP.

It's unfortunate, but the US have taken long ago the position that Assad must leave. It used to be an appropriate position; it seemed probable that Syria would sooner or later end up in more or less the same state as Egypt, Libya and Tunisia: Dictator gone, moderate rebels in control, some more democracy present, and maybe the country is still a mess but at least now democracy has a chance, right?

However, the present situation is that the faction on the way to replace Assad just happens to be the most hateful group on the planet. The moderate rebels have as much chance of governing the country as the next US President to be from the Green Party. The return to Assad governing would be almost a blessing. But the United States are stuck, because they have opposed Assad the whole way, so accepting him would be losing face. It would also be admitting that it's fine to be a brutal dictator as long as your opponent are Muslim radicals, which has been by the way the American position in much of North Africa and Middle East for quite a while, but it's a little bit too realpolitik to admit it.

The sooner the US change their position, the better. My guess is that Obama is going to stick to his guns, because he prefers leave with his head high and let his successor the role of eating humble pie.

What do the presidential hopefuls Hillary Clinton say about Syria?


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Nov 6, 2015)

stream, you can't act as if it was only the U.S. holding such a position

This is a trash article and a trash source anyway.


----------



## stream (Nov 6, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> stream, you can't act as if it was only the U.S. holding such a position



No, indeed. But other countries are either stuck in the same situation, or changing their position already. Italy's prime minister Renzi is "calling for Russia to be part of a solution", Merkel wants to include Assad in peace talks, even Erdogan has been changing his tune. So far, France and UK haven't budged, but they're not offering any real solution either.

Of course, Saudi Arabia would prefer to have ISIS in power than Assad, so they actually have a "solution" they can work towards.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Nov 6, 2015)

Lol, kids posting articles from sputnik news. Like the one about the US Army being inferior to the Russian Army. I actually lol'd at that. Made by day. Thank you, Ernie.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Nov 6, 2015)

Unicornsilovethem said:


> I don't think anyone says it like that.



I do.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 6, 2015)

stream said:


> I happen to agree with the OP.
> 
> It's unfortunate, but the US have taken long ago the position that Assad must leave. *It used to be an appropriate position;* it seemed probable that Syria would sooner or later end up in more or less the same state as Egypt, Libya and Tunisia: Dictator gone, moderate rebels in control, some more democracy present, and maybe the country is still a mess but at least now democracy has a chance, right?



Really? How so? Assad had way more "support" than Mubarak or Ben Ali (not sure about Gaddafi). Most Syrians feared a civil war, with a possible islamic extremist regime as a result, more than they hated Assad. Yet the US (and its allies) decided that Assad must go.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/syrians-support-assad-western-propaganda


----------



## Hitt (Nov 6, 2015)

stream said:


> No, indeed. But other countries are either stuck in the same situation, or changing their position already. Italy's prime minister Renzi is "calling for Russia to be part of a solution", Merkel wants to include Assad in peace talks, even Erdogan has been changing his tune. So far, France and UK haven't budged, but they're not offering any real solution either.
> 
> Of course, Saudi Arabia would prefer to have ISIS in power than Assad, so they actually have a "solution" they can work towards.



We already spent trillions of dollars and thousands of lives worth of troops in the shithole countries of Iraq and Afganistan, and honestly the payoff wasn't worth it whatsoever.

And now we should go into yet another shithole middle eastern country, this time in the MIDST OF A CIVIL WAR, and play the "savior" again?  You know I like to think we would learn a few things from history every now and again in this country.

Let Putin show us how it's done.  He'll clean it all up right?  Worked so great last time THEY were in Afghanistan....


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 6, 2015)

Hitt said:


> Let Putin show us how it's done.  He'll clean it all up right?  Worked so great last time THEY were in Afghanistan....



To be fair, it didn't help them that the US sent Rambo to train and assist Bin Laden.


----------



## hcheng02 (Nov 6, 2015)

The thing is that Russia is in a relatively better position to intervene in Syria and than the US. They have a clear ally in Assad and a clear objective in preserving their warm water port. The USA has neither a clear ally, goal, or plan and thus should just stay out.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Nov 6, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> To be fair, it didn't help them that the US sent Rambo to train and assist Bin Laden.



Fucking Rambo and his explosive arrow tips man...


----------



## Sunuvmann (Nov 6, 2015)

>Liutenant Colonel

Well there's enough of those out there, its pretty easy to shop around and find one whose opinion matches the yours for the propaganda piece you want to write.


Anyway as to the actual substance, the fact of the matter is Obama (and the US in general) doesn't want to have anything to do with Syria.

But they have to do something because the media would lynch them otherwise. "WHY ARENT YOU HELPING THE SYRIAN PEOPLE?!?!?! WHY ARENT YOU FIGHTING ISIS?!?! WHY ARE YOU LETTING A DICTATOR WIN????!!?!!"

And if they actively moved to end Assad and ISIS, "WHY ARE YOU PUTTING MORE AMERICANS IN HARMS WAY?! DIDNT YOU RUN ON ENDING WARS, NOT STARTING THEM?!!?" and other such bullshit.

Politically no situation is great. And both escalating and fucking off are unpopular.

Thus the policy is containment, the bare minimum we could be doing.

Democracy is messy.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Nov 6, 2015)

hcheng02 said:


> The thing is that Russia is in a relatively better position to intervene in Syria and than the US. They have a clear ally in Assad and a clear objective in preserving their warm water port. The USA has neither a clear ally, goal, or plan and thus should just stay out.



a destabilized Middle East is a treasure trove of opportunity to test out new technologies and forms of warfare. 

it also allows more important covert actions around the world to go unnoticed because a few thousand 'rabs get fried on the daily and everyone is focused on it. 

not to mention putting various countries, allies, enemies and rivals in a tough spot...all of which  can exploit for its own benefit. 


now looking at it from the other perspective...what exactly is the benefit of a stable Mid East?


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Nov 6, 2015)

damn RB that was kind of sobering....


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 6, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> Anyway as to the actual substance, the fact of the matter is Obama (and the US in general) doesn't want to have anything to do with Syria.



Don't lie Sun. Just because Obama didn't move directly against Assad doesn't mean he didn't do plenty to weaken him in order to eventually unseat him. He could've stayed out. He chose not to.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Nov 6, 2015)

The other problem is the media elevates the importance of this far more than it actually deserves.

We have no interest in Syria. They could stay Russia's vassal for all we care. OH LOOK! THINGS ARE GOING BACK TO EXACTLY THE WAY THEY WERE 5 YEARS AGO! WOW! WHAT A CRUSHING DEFEAT!

But our retard media would portray it as a US loss when our actual investment in who won amounted to a "Hey democratic syrians, good job  "

Our only actual interest is that it doesn't become a terrorist hot bed. Something that will happen if Assad stays in power (or loses to ISIS). Even if Assad gets a complete victory, you'll still have a barely functioning state like Iraq with constant low level insurgency. And those kinds of shitstates (like Yemen before the government fell to the Shia rebels) are perfect bases for those seeking to attack 'Murrica. Like AQAP in Yemen.

So the only way Syria can ever not suck is for Assad to go. He's too toxic and will continue bringing out the sunni zealots.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 6, 2015)

RAGING BONER said:


> a destabilized Middle East is a treasure trove of opportunity to test out new technologies and forms of warfare.
> 
> it also allows more important covert actions around the world to go unnoticed because a few thousand 'rabs get fried on the daily and everyone is focused on it.
> 
> not to mention putting various countries, allies, enemies and rivals in a tough spot...all of which  can exploit for its own benefit.


+rep



> now looking at it from the other perspective...what exactly is the benefit of a stable Mid East?



Well if you ask Sunny: It helps the US doing business. And that's apparently all the US ever cares about.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Nov 6, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Don't lie Sun. Just because Obama didn't move directly against Assad doesn't mean he didn't do plenty to weaken him in order to eventually unseat him. He could've stayed out. He chose not to.


He never had the option to stay out.

If the FSA hadn't been shit, then they could have dealt with their revolution themselves. But nope, they failed, ISIS was able to forment and then the media went into its hysteria of OMIGAWD! CRAZY ARAB PEOPLE! KEEL EM! KEEL EM!


----------



## Sunuvmann (Nov 6, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Well if you ask Sunny: It helps the US doing business. And that's apparently all the US ever cares about.


While true, our main interest in Mid East stability is really a desire to not give a shit about them anymore. We'd like to focus on East Asia now kthx.

It would be nice if they could be relegated to a lol we dont give a darn if you genocide each other like with Africa.

But unfortunately, when shit happens in the Middle East, it doesn't stay in the middle east.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Nov 6, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> +rep
> 
> 
> 
> Well if you ask Sunny: It helps the US doing business. And that's apparently all the US ever cares about.



As long as American global dominance is maintained.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 6, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> He never had the option to stay out.
> 
> If the FSA hadn't been shit, then they could have dealt with their revolution themselves. But nope, they failed, ISIS was able to forment and then the media went into its hysteria of OMIGAWD! CRAZY ARAB PEOPLE! KEEL EM! KEEL EM!



He "went in" well ahead of that. He (along with allies) supported and trained the rebels before anyone ever heard of the IS, ISIS or ISIL.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 6, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> While true, our main interest in Mid East stability is really a desire to not give a shit about them anymore. We'd like to focus on East Asia now kthx.



*You*'d like to, sure, but those who matter don't and won't. 

As long as the world runs on middle eastern oil/gas the middle east will stay relevant. Sadly, to their own detriment.

Also: Israel.


----------



## stream (Nov 6, 2015)

Hitt said:


> Let Putin show us how it's done.  He'll clean it all up right?  Worked so great last time THEY were in Afghanistan....


To be fair, this time he actually has a government that a lot of the population is willing to support. Syria under Assad was more stable than Afghanistan has ever been.



RAGING BONER said:


> now looking at it from the other perspective...what exactly is the benefit of a stable Mid East?


For the US, not much. Europe is starting to feel that all these refugees are a lot of hassle, though.



Sunuvmann said:


> We have no interest in Syria. They could stay Russia's vassal for all we care.
> [?]
> Our only actual interest is that it doesn't become a terrorist hot bed. Something that will happen if Assad stays in power (or loses to ISIS).


The main issue is that there is no one that can be end up power apart from Assad or ISIS. The "moderate" rebels are a handful of soldiers that would instantly collapse were it not for constant support. Every time the US trains more, they almost instantly either get killed or jump to ISIS.

In comparison, Assad has managed to stay on top of the country for quite a lot of time in the past.


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 6, 2015)

This thread is filled with Morons on both sides


----------



## Sunuvmann (Nov 6, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> *You*'d like to, sure, but those who matter don't and won't.
> 
> As long as the world runs on middle eastern oil/gas the middle east will stay relevant. Sadly, to their own detriment.
> 
> Also: Israel.


Never heard of the 'pivot to asia'? That's been Obama's primary geopolitical desire.



Well it doesn't anymore. US is barely using any mid east oil because fracking.

Our only care about mid-east oil is the fact that our friends in Asia/Oceania need it. India, Indonesia, Australia, S.Korea and Japan all get quite a bit of mid-east oil. And to an extent Europe as well. Though they've diversified a bit more since now they got Norwegian and Russian oil.

True there is Israel. But they generally can take care of themselves. They basically solo'd the entire middle east twice without much aid.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 6, 2015)

Sunuvmann said:


> Never heard of the 'pivot to asia'? That's been Obama's primary geopolitical desire.



Words are wind. Obama will be gone soon. And the middle east will still be the middle east with all its significance, no matter whether it fits to Obama's proclaimed desire or not.




> Well it doesn't anymore. US is barely using any mid east oil because fracking.
> 
> Our only care about mid-east oil is the fact that our friends in Asia/Oceania need it. India, Indonesia, Australia, S.Korea and Japan all get quite a bit of mid-east oil. And to an extent Europe as well. Though they've diversified a bit more since now they got Norwegian and Russian oil.



I told you before that the significance of middle eastern oil (and therefore of the  region) doesn't hinge on the fact that the US uses it or not. The world's economy does. Surely your not thinking that the US doesn't care about that?!



> True there is Israel. But they generally can take care of themselves. They basically solo'd the entire middle east twice without much aid.



And they could prolly do it again. And yet there are plenty of people (the kind that matter) in the US that want to make sure that it won't have to come to that. A trully stable and independent middle east could prove quite troublesome for Israel, as it could mean facing a united (and thriving) front. Politcally and militarily.


----------



## Amanda (Nov 6, 2015)

America, this isn't about you and your ego, just let go already.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Nov 6, 2015)

Amanda said:


> America, this isn't about you and your ego, just let go already.



America isn't about one mans ego or a congress full of morons.

America is an institution of such complexity and competing global interests, foreign and domestic, that the average person can't even fathom.

most "experts" only ever understand part of the picture be it political, economic or military.


Like it or not America is tied to the destiny of the world (sounds like ego but it's more true than not).


----------



## Sunuvmann (Nov 6, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Words are wind.



Its more the Godfather 3 scene. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU[/YOUTUBE]

Obama clearly wants nothing to do with them. But those things are out of his control.


> I told you before that the significance of midle eastern oil (and therefore the  region) doesn't hinge on the fact that the US uses it or not. The world's economy does. Surely your not thinking that the US doesn't care about that?!


I was largely agreeing with that.

But its significance is diminishing.

If the entire region was wiped off the map, world oil production would drop by a third. Which would cause a spike in prices and probably cause a global recession, especially in those aforementioned countries as well as others with oil being rerouted to serve that demand.

That however is nowhere near as bad as it was.



> And they could prolly do it again. And yet there are plenty of people (the kind that matter) in the US that want to make sure that it won't have to come to that. A trully stable and independent middle east could prove quite troublesome for Israel, as it could mean facing a united (and thriving) front. Politcally and militarily.


Spoiler alert: The Iranian nuclear deal was about bringing peace in the middle east (and for Israel) by making it so every major player in the region is on our team.

That is, get Iran to make peace with them by bringing them back into our camp which significantly reduces the threat on the Israelis as it was Iranian subsidiaries who were the primary benefactors to anti-Israel forces.

Getting Iran to be on basically the same side as us and then that might help resolve the Iranian-Saudi cold war (and if not resolve it then bring it down to a low simmer)


----------



## Amanda (Nov 6, 2015)

RAGING BONER said:


> America isn't about one mans ego or a congress full of morons.
> 
> America is an institution of such complexity and competing global interests, foreign and domestic, that the average person can't even fathom.
> 
> ...





Blah blah blah, USA keeps militarily and politically opposing our best option for ending the war because it said it would in the beginning and now can't admit it doesn't work. 

Oh and you can tie yourself further into the destiny bestiny by taking all the 3 million Middle-Eastern refugees trying to row their boats over the Mediterranean.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Nov 6, 2015)

Amanda said:


> Blah blah blah, USA keeps militarily and politically opposing our best option for ending the war because it said it would in the beginning and now can't admit it doesn't work.
> 
> Oh and you can tie yourself further into the destiny bestiny by taking all the 3 million Middle-Eastern refugees trying to row their boats over the Mediterranean.



you make it sound like I, or any other average citizen has a say...at best we vote in the next puppet who people perceive to have more power than they actually do.

I'm just trying to explain to you that America is a great tentacled beast beyond any one mans control.


----------



## Saishin (Nov 6, 2015)

Washington has lost touch with a lot of things long time ago already


----------



## Amanda (Nov 6, 2015)

RAGING BONER said:


> you make it sound like I, or any other average citizen has a say...at best we vote in the next puppet who people perceive to have more power than they actually do.
> 
> I'm just trying to explain to you that America is a great tentacled beast beyond any one mans control.





Oh no, I don't mean it personally. Of course I don't blame individual citizens, no matter which country we're talking about. 

I'm just very frustrated about this because these refugees aren't just world news to me but concrete daily reality. So to see the conflict they're fleeing becoming a side story in a (imo) stupid argument between countries who shouldn't be involved in the whole conflict to begin with... You just know this isn't going to end soon.


----------



## Ernie (Nov 6, 2015)

Fucking Muricans 

Most entertaining people on Earth!! Easily!


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Nov 6, 2015)

RAGING BONER said:


> Like it or not America is tied to the destiny of the world (sounds like ego but it's more true than not).



Said every superpower ever.


----------



## Deleted member 222538 (Nov 6, 2015)

^yeah but there has never been a superpower more dominant than the U.S. The United States is legendary. just face it.


----------



## Hand Banana (Nov 6, 2015)

Normality said:


> ^yeah but there has never been a superpower more dominant than the U.S. The United States is legendary. just face it.



Not true in the least bit.


----------



## $Kakashi$ (Nov 6, 2015)

Hopefully they don't stick around.


----------



## Dark Forces (Nov 6, 2015)

RAGING BONER said:


> you make it sound like I, or any other average citizen has a say...at best we vote in the next puppet who people perceive to have more power than they actually do.
> 
> I'm just trying to explain to you that America is a great tentacled beast beyond any one mans control.



props man, you've got some serious brain, especially for a boner

Syria isn't any different from any other east/west proxy war for access to primary resources


----------



## Muah (Nov 6, 2015)

I asked a french atheist guy who was the bad guys. To my surprise he said the jews. I blamed the arabs. Honestly he thought the jews have been stealing land from the Arabs for along time. But I know how tricky those arabs can be.


----------



## Amanda (Nov 7, 2015)

Normality said:


> ^yeah but there has never been a superpower more dominant than the U.S. The United States is legendary. just face it.




I'd appreciate it heartily if you didn't use your dominance for destroying other nations. 

If you have no business in Syria, then at least do everyone a favor and get out of there.


----------



## epyoncloud (Nov 7, 2015)

Normality said:


> ^yeah but there has never been a superpower more dominant than the U.S. The United States is legendary. just face it.



I find it funny that most people that make these kind of tard comments have never opened a history book.


----------



## Amanda (Nov 7, 2015)

epyoncloud said:


> I find it funny that most people that make these kind of tard comments have never opened a history book.




Be understanding, they _are_ Americans. 

To be honest, after the Mongols, I find everything unimpressing. They made everyone their bitch with nothing but horses, arrows and good tactics, and in the process changed the world. Tamerlane, too.

The Romans too are a tough act to follow. Starting from a city state, carrying on on foot and armed with swords and intelligence, and two thousand years later, the entire Western world (and by extention, the whole world) is shaped by them.

Ironically, these days technology is so advanced that to match the feats of the past just isn't possible.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Nov 7, 2015)

Amanda said:


> Blah blah blah, USA keeps militarily and politically opposing our best option for ending the war because it said it would in the beginning and now can't admit it doesn't work.
> 
> Oh and you can tie yourself further into the destiny bestiny by taking all the 3 million Middle-Eastern refugees trying to row their boats over the Mediterranean.



What exactly is this best option you speak of?


----------



## Kagekatsu (Nov 12, 2015)

For the record, Sinjar was where ISIS attempted genocide against the Yezidis people and is their link between Mosul and Syria.


----------



## Amanda (Nov 12, 2015)

OutlawJohn said:


> What exactly is this best option you speak of?




Hasn't that been the topic of the discussion all this time? 

Stop trying to overpower some specific candidate for power, stop trying to find someone else that you could possibly put into power in his state, let there be truce, let Assad continue in power during the intermediate time, let there be free elections open for all participants, and whoever wins gets to form the government. 

Basically, peace > your candidate in power. Or in the case of USA, peace > your unfavorite not in power. 

Otherwise the war will go on for ever and there won't be no brick atop another brick left in Syria.


----------



## Mael (Nov 12, 2015)

*Islamic State video threatens attacks in Russia "very soon" -site monitoring group*



> Islamic State has released a video threatening attacks in Russia "very soon", the SITE monitoring group said on Thursday.
> 
> Al-Hayat Media Center, Islamic State's foreign language media division, released a Russian language video with chants of "Soon, very soon, the blood will spill like an ocean", SITE reported.
> 
> ...


----------



## Zaru (Nov 12, 2015)

Headline translates to "Islamic State wants to be wiped off the face of the earth"


----------



## Amanda (Nov 12, 2015)

Oh right, I've been wondering when they try again in USA after that fiasco in Texas. May the next attempts be as unsuccesful. 

As for Russia... Lol, as if Putin would care about dead civilians. ISIS can make a case study of Beslan. 



Zaru said:


> Headline translates to "Islamic State wants to be wiped off the face of the earth"




What's even the point of drawing more attention to themselves? USA just wants out and Russia is only there to support Assad.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 12, 2015)

Again, makes you wonder why the IS is mad at russia when all they ever bomb are moderate rebels.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Nov 12, 2015)

Amanda said:


> Hasn't that been the topic of the discussion all this time?
> 
> Stop trying to overpower some specific candidate for power, stop trying to find someone else that you could possibly put into power in his state, let there be truce, let Assad continue in power during the intermediate time, let there be free elections open for all participants, and whoever wins gets to form the government.
> 
> ...



1) You're making the very ridiculous assumption that the Syrian people will accept Assad. He's killed more than 250,000 and made more than half the country flee to neighboring countries. That shit is not going to work.

2) This plan exactly what President Obama proposed. So, idk what you're talking about we're opposing the obvious solution.

3) Going back to 1, this solution won't work. Neither the US nor Russia is as important to the calculus of Syria as some of us seem to think. Saudi Arabia will not allow Assad to stay in power. Saudi Arabia will find rebel groups with oil money until the end of time. So will the other Gulf Arab Nations. The US can agree to whatever the fuck it wants, but Saudi and Iran are going to continue their proxy war in Syria despite us.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 12, 2015)

> *?Assad must go? is a barrier to peace in Syria
> 
> It?s time for pro-intervention hard-liners to be honest about what their position means*
> 
> ...




Pretty much my stance since the beginning of the conflict. And now it's even coming from Aljazeera (Qatar).


----------



## Mael (Nov 12, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Again, makes you wonder why the IS is mad at russia when all they ever bomb are moderate rebels.



Because herp derp they're still killing Muslims.  You're all into that hive mind remember?


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 12, 2015)

Mael said:


> Because herp derp they're still killing Muslims.  You're all into that hive mind remember?



You mean the IS? That's right, they're killing muslims.


----------



## Megaharrison (Nov 12, 2015)

The idea that daddy's little dictator will be able to rule a united Syria totalitarian style again is hilarious and juvenile. It's impossible, 4 years of Assad getting nowhere and habvingh to beg a new country to save him each week should demonstrate that.

Assad must go is reality. Either that or partition Syria along sectarian lines. The latter is probably the best option given Syria is a shitty false-country by European colonialists.


----------



## Mael (Nov 12, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> You mean the IS? That's right, they're killing muslims.



The Russians you imbecile.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 12, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> 4 years of Assad getting nowhere and habvingh to beg a new country to save him each week should demonstrate that.


The thing is though that there were new countries joining in every day to get rid of him, that he needed saving in the first place.




Mael said:


> The Russians you imbecile.



Goddamn Mael, you're just too easy.


----------



## Sferr (Nov 12, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Again, makes you wonder why the IS is mad at russia when all they ever bomb are moderate rebels.



It is silly to say that Russia only bombs moderates. Russia bombs anyone who is fighting the Syrian army and Syrian army has fronts with both FSA and ISIS. Not long ago, for example, Kuweires airbase that was under siege for almost 3 years by ISIS, was reached by Syrian Army only thanks to Russian airstrikes. 

And anyway, those "moderates" that Russia bombs are almost entirely jihadists, ranging from groups like Islamic Front to Al-Qaeda. FSA was basically overtaken by them. The real moderates either left, radicalized or are forced to fight under Islamist command. Even USA distances from them:

There is a new thing now, probably created with the help of USA -  that are basically Kurds with the pals but more and more Sunni Arabs join them. Those, at least, are true moderates. Because I don't imagine Kurds working closely together with radicals. Especially not Syrian ones, who are basically commies-light.


----------



## Megaharrison (Nov 12, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> The thing is though that there were new countries joining in every day to get rid of him, that he needed saving in the first place.



Besides a brief skirmish with Turkey its just been him and his foreign troops killing other Arabs for years now. Blaming Assad's incompetence on a grand Western conspiracy is so hilariously typical.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Nov 12, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> The idea that daddy's little dictator will be able to rule a united Syria totalitarian style again is hilarious and juvenile. It's impossible, 4 years of Assad getting nowhere and habvingh to beg a new country to save him each week should demonstrate that.
> 
> Assad must go is reality. Either that or partition Syria along sectarian lines. The latter is probably the best option given Syria is a shitty false-country by European colonialists.


The Syrian Arab Army has been reduced to a hodgepodge of conscripts, tribal militias and regular army units that have gotten decimated due to incompetent officers and desertions, the only reason their still fighting is because Moscow and Tehran have no problem bankrupting themselves to keep Assad afloat. At the same time, Russia will not permit the rebels to march on Latakia or Damascus and they've got total air superiority. Logically, partition should be the endgame with the Sunnis and Kurds granted independence and Assad retains control of the coast so the Russians keep their naval base.

Problem is, Assad still believes he can regain full control of the country and it's likely he rushed his big offensive way too soon while the Russians were telling him to wait until they can actually rebuild his army. As such, with the exception of the Aleppo front, the SAA are either taking heavy casualties for limited gains or outright losing territory while their armor is getting torn up by rebel TOW launchers.

Meanwhile, USAF may have gotten Jihadi John, fingers crossed.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Nov 12, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> The idea that daddy's little dictator will be able to rule a united Syria totalitarian style again is hilarious and juvenile. It's impossible, 4 years of Assad getting nowhere and habvingh to beg a new country to save him each week should demonstrate that.
> 
> Assad must go is reality. Either that or partition Syria along sectarian lines. The latter is probably the best option given Syria is a shitty false-country by European colonialists.



He wasn't able to go anywhere because sanctions prevented him to do anything.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 13, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Besides a brief skirmish with Turkey its just been him and his foreign troops killing other Arabs for years now. Blaming Assad's incompetence on a grand Western conspiracy is so hilariously typical.



Nice try Mega, but those "other Arabs" consist of many jihadists from outside Syria. Not to mention all the weapons and supplies they are supported with from OUTSIDE Syria (). So you expect Assad to win a war on his own, when the Syrian opposition can't either.

Also speaking of conspiracies:



> *U.S. secretly backed Syrian opposition groups, cables released by WikiLeaks show*
> 
> 
> By Craig Whitlock *April 17, 2011*
> ...


----------



## Mael (Nov 13, 2015)

*Kurdish forces seize Iraq's Sinjar town from Islamic State*

Sure, SoG.  It's all some ebul West-Jew conspiracy.  Couldn't possibly be Assad's violence on his own people...

But now for good news!


> Kurdish peshmerga forces backed by U.S. air strikes seized the Iraqi town of Sinjar from Islamic State on Friday, a Reuters witness said, in one of the most significant counter-attacks since the militants swept through the north last year.
> 
> "ISIL defeated and on the run," the Kurdistan regional security council said in a tweet, using an acronym for Islamic State. It said the peshmerga had secured Sinjar's wheat silo, cement factory, hospital and several other public buildings.
> 
> ...


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/13/us-mideast-crisis-iraq-sinjar-idUSKCN0T10AL20151113

I know they're not Shia Muslims/Iranians that you love so much, SoG, but if anything they're better.  They're Kurds.

Biji Kurdistan azad.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 13, 2015)

Mael said:


> Sure, SoG.  It's all some ebul West-Jew conspiracy.  Couldn't possibly be Assad's violence on his own people...



Sure Mael, it's all ebul Assad's fault. Outside forces wanting him gone and fueling the conflict in Syria are not to blame at all. 



> But now for good news!
> 
> http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/13/us-mideast-crisis-iraq-sinjar-idUSKCN0T10AL20151113
> 
> ...



Kurds are part of the Iranian people dumbass.  Not that I care, but you apparently do. 



> They are culturally and linguistically closely related to the Iranian peoples[48][50][51] and, as a result, are often themselves classified as an Iranian people.[52] Kurdish nationalists claim that the Kurds are descended from the Hurrians and the Medes,[53] (the latter being another Iranian people[54]) and the claimed Median descent is reflected in the words of the Kurdish national anthem: "we are the children of the Medes and Kai Khosrow".[55] The Kurdish languages form a subgroup of the Northwestern Iranian languages.[56][57]




I like the Kurds, they're smart.



> *Syria civil war: Kurdish leader says collapse of Assad regime 'would be a disaster' despite its treatment of his people*
> 
> *Saleh Muslim tells Patrick Cockburn he is no supporter of President Bashar al-Assad, but is fearful of the dangers Islamist groups close to Damascus pose*
> 
> ...



[YOUTUBE]Fnd60U7HM38[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Mael (Nov 13, 2015)

Actually Assad did start it.  His forces fired on protesters.  Next thing you'll tell me is that there were helicopter snipers from former Blackwater mercs or Mossad.

But they're Kurds, they're their own.  And if anything it's insulting given what Iran has done to them.







> despite its treatment of his people



Because you're hard-pressed to choose between shit and even smellier shit.  You mistakenly champion it like Assad is someone good.  God damn why haven't you moved to Iran yet?  For all the Euro-babble you give you sure suck the Shia dick well.


----------



## Undertaker (Nov 13, 2015)

USA is such a control freak. If you have no interest then let it go. But no, you can`t.


----------



## Mael (Nov 13, 2015)

Undertaker said:


> USA is such a control freak. If you have no interest then let it go. But no, you can`t.



Could easily say the same of Russia with Ukraine or with China with islands that aren't theirs.

Sunny claims there's no real interest but there is, the welfare of any American there and the export of terror elements.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Nov 13, 2015)

Kurds take Sinjar and Al-Hawl, ISF are on the move in Ramadi, likely chance Jihadi John is dead.

It's like Christmas come early.


----------



## Prince Vegeta (Nov 13, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Sure Mael, it's all ebul Assad's fault. Outside forces wanting him gone and fueling the conflict in Syria are not to blame at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you kidding me? there are like 20 million kurds just in Turkey and you call them part of the Iranian people? 

Kurds have nothing to do with Iran, We have different language, different culture, different history. We are not part of anything but Kurdistan. 

and I'm glad the Peshmerga could finally retake Sinjar Hopefully the Yazidi people can finally go home and live in peace.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 13, 2015)

Mael said:


> Actually Assad did start it.  His forces fired on protesters.  Next thing you'll tell me is that there were helicopter snipers from former Blackwater mercs or Mossad.



You pushed those protests though ("U.S. secretly backed Syrian opposition groups [before 2011], cables released by WikiLeaks show"), don?t deny it. So it?s hard to say whether those protest would?ve had the same momentum without you meddling.

And it's highly unlikely that the protest weren't hijacked from the beginning, especially given the history of islamists trying to rise to power before and the foreign powers that were/are interested in seeing that happen. There are reports of armed protesters killing security forces as early as March 2011. It's difficult to say whether those reports are true or the result of Syrian propaganda, just as it's difficult to say whether reports that say that the protest were peaceful until Septembre 2011 and that Assad was killing unarmed protesters in droves are true or propaganda spread by the anti-Assad coalition. Both have reasons to lie. 

But these guys may not:

_?I have seen from the beginning armed protesters in those demonstrations ? they were the first to fire on the police. Very often the violence of the security forces comes in response to the brutal violence of the armed insurgents? ? Jesuit priest Father Frans Van der Lugt, January 2012, Homs Syria_
_
?The claim that armed opposition to the government has begun only recently is a complete lie. The killings of soldiers, police and civilians, often in the most brutal circumstances, have been going on virtually since the beginning.? ? Professor Jeremy Salt, October 2011, Ankara Turkey_



> But they're Kurds, they're their own.  And if anything it's insulting given what Iran has done to them.



Nah, it's not. Their common heritage and culture overshadows and outlasts any political resentments. Trust me, I actually know Kurds and they have a much bigger problem with Turks and Arabs than with Iranians.



> Because you're hard-pressed to choose between shit and even smellier shit.  You mistakenly champion it like Assad is someone good.  God damn why haven't you moved to Iran yet?  For all the Euro-babble you give you sure suck the Shia dick well.



Mael you never listen, you have a shitty memory and you're a brainwashed Murikan tard. That's a hellish combination to be sure.

I never once said that Assad is even remotely good. All I ever said is that if the Syrian want him gone, they should be the ones getting rid of him. But it's a fact that the Syrians weren't so sure that getting rid of Assad would be a good idea, not knowing what comes after and at what cost.



Mael said:


> Could easily say the same of Russia with Ukraine or with China with islands that aren't theirs.


Didn?t know Syria was also so close to US borders. 



> Sunny claims there's no real interest but there is, the welfare of any American there and the export of terror elements.



Yeah, Sunny is a na?ve fool. But so are you if you think that turning Syria to an islamist shithole makes Americans safer and reduces islamist terror. But all you really care about is weakening Iran and Russia, right!? Too bad that so many people have to die for your geopolitical gain.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 13, 2015)

Wasn't Jihadi John also taken out in a recent airstrike?


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 13, 2015)

Yeah he was
I posted it here


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 13, 2015)

Prince Vegeta said:


> Are you kidding me? there are like 20 million kurds just in Turkey and you call them part of the Iranian people?
> 
> Kurds have nothing to do with Iran, We have different language, different culture, different history. We are not part of anything but Kurdistan.



I don't know if don't understand or if you're just ignorant. 

Let me explain by quoting someone I found who is better at it:



> The Kurds are an Iranian people, ethnically, and racially.  (Note, "Iranian" as a race is distinct from the current nation state of Iran)  After the Aryan peoples swept into the Iranian Plateau, they gradually separated into various tribes and sub-groups, such as Persians, Bactrians, Scythians, Parthians, and Medes.
> 
> The Medians settled around what is now western Iran.  They were once the most powerful and prominent of the groups, and formed the first Iranian state.  United with the Persians under Cyrus the Great, they forged a great empire that stretched from Greece to Egypt to India.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mael (Nov 13, 2015)

Prince Vegeta is a Kurd, SoG.


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Nov 13, 2015)

Bannai said:


> don't be too proud. he's a special needs person



Mael x SoG is 'canon wubs'.


----------



## Mael (Nov 13, 2015)

Bannai said:


> don't be too proud. he's a special needs person



Still butthurt Ernie is banned?



MbS said:


> Mael x SoG is 'canon wubs'.



Still sore Degelle never liked you the way she liked Mega.


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Nov 13, 2015)

Somebody actually liked MH?

This is news to me.


----------



## Mael (Nov 13, 2015)

MbS said:


> Somebody actually liked MH?
> 
> This is news to me.



You weren't cognizant of MegaDeg then.


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Nov 13, 2015)

More like bemusement that you're equating it with 'like'.


----------



## Mael (Nov 13, 2015)

MbS said:


> More like bemusement that you're equating it with 'like'.



Like or love, Degelle never had feelings for you like with Mega.


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Nov 13, 2015)

S'alright Mael, I'm sure I can live with the heartbreak.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 14, 2015)

Mael said:


> Prince Vegeta is a Kurd, SoG.



I figured as much. 

"We have different language, different culture, different history."

This kinda gave him away. 

What I posted still goes though.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 14, 2015)

*Diplomats set plan for political change in Syria*



> *Diplomats set plan for political change in Syria
> *
> By MATTHEW LEE and GEORGE JAHN
> 
> ...


----------



## Amanda (Nov 14, 2015)

*fingers crossed*

I hope for the best, fear for the worst. 

Everyone should realize that war is the worst enemy.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Nov 14, 2015)

Assad stepping down as part of a transition of power or agreeing to a de facto partitioning of Syria is the only way this will work. If he still insists that he can regain full control of the country and that the West need to give him their full support, this round of negotiations will go nowhere like the last half dozen did.


----------



## Amanda (Nov 14, 2015)

No, he can't stay in full control, as you said. But what happens to power in Syria must be decided via negotiations and elections, not via guns. If we try that the war never ends.


----------



## Prince Vegeta (Nov 15, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> I don't know if don't understand or if you're just ignorant.
> 
> Let me explain by quoting someone I found who is better at it:



Try to get your hands on this book called Sharafnama written by the Kurdish history writer Sharaf Khan Bidlisi, it's about the kurdish history that goes back  B.C

 There's an English version of it i hope you can find it.


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 15, 2015)

Kurds are "Iranians" in the Same Way how The Dutch, British, Austrians are "German"

Not sure why this is relevant though, Stalin was Half Iranic yet he wasn't pro Iran, He even Invaded it, The British are Germanic yet they went to war with Germany Two Times, so The fact that Kurds are Iranic doesn't change the fact that they devoloped Their own Culture and Traditions


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 15, 2015)

*Russian and U.S. lists of terrorist groups in Syria largely coincide*



> *Russian and U.S. lists of terrorist groups in Syria largely coincide: RIA cites Russian deputy foreign minister*
> 
> 
> November 13, 2015 4:15 PM
> ...


http://news.yahoo.com/russian-u-lists-terrorist-groups-syria-largely-coincide-211512601.html


----------



## Alwaysmind (Nov 15, 2015)

Russia and U.S. are actually in accord? That is rather positive news.


----------



## Megaharrison (Nov 15, 2015)

50 IRGC killed in the lifting of the ISIS siege of Aleppo alone. They havin a fun quagmire


----------



## Overwatch (Nov 24, 2015)

According to BBC, Turkey just shot down a Russian military jet.


----------



## WT (Nov 24, 2015)

So it begins. Something tells me that after all the recent conflicts, something big is gonna happen


----------



## Megaharrison (Nov 24, 2015)

Russian Su-24 going down in Turkey. Turkey warned several days ago they'd shoot down russian jets after they kept going into Turkish airspace. Supposedly Russia sent in helicopters to try and find the pilot but were driven off by Turkish soldiers. To make things even more interesting, a Turkish-allied militia in Syria is saying it has the pilot.

I hate Turkey more than Russia, and Putin has either allowed or not interfered with Israel bombing Hezbollah in Syria (there was another strike today). But I also like Russia getting embarrassed for its adventurism in Syria, so I'm conflicted here. Syria has proven to be the quagmire for all of the goroups and people I hate.


----------



## Stelios (Nov 24, 2015)

Wtf r u doing Turkey


----------



## Jay. (Nov 24, 2015)

if the kurds could prolly be the biggest help in fighting terrorists like the isis on the landscape then why are turkish people bombing them for their own silly reasons if the greater course should be fighting isis?


middle easterners smh


----------



## Wilykat (Nov 24, 2015)

*Russian plane shot down in Turkey*





> Istanbul, Turkey (CNN) A Russian warplane crashed Tuesday on the Syrian side of the Turkey-Syria border, a Russian Defense Ministry spokesperson told CNN.
> 
> The cause of the crash and the fate of the pilots remains unclear, although the Russian Defense Ministry said they ejected, according to state-run Sputnik news.
> 
> ...



Russian can't get a break.  First they lose a plane to a bomb a few weeks ago and now one of theirs were shot down.

One question however: why was that plane violating Turkey airspace?


----------



## Stelios (Nov 24, 2015)

Was it? The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights UK-based group put the crash site in Jabal Turkman area of Northern Latakia


----------



## Wilykat (Nov 24, 2015)

Crash site is not necessarily the same spot the plane was shot at.

Turkey claimed they warned the plane multiple times before they shot it down. So unless there's unbiased radar data showing flight path to prove the plane was in Turkey or never was in Turkey, it's a case of he-said-she-said.


----------



## Deleted member 235437 (Nov 24, 2015)

Jay. said:


> if the kurds could prolly be the biggest help in fighting terrorists like the isis on the landscape then why are turkish people bombing them for their own silly reasons if the greater course should be fighting isis?
> 
> 
> middle easterners smh



Erdogan would rather have an Islamic State then a Kurdish one, in his eyes ISIS are an ally in making sure the Kurds don't get a state.


----------



## Mael (Nov 24, 2015)

Jay. said:


> if the kurds could prolly be the biggest help in fighting terrorists like the isis on the landscape then why are turkish people bombing them for their own silly reasons if the greater course should be fighting isis?
> 
> 
> middle easterners smh



Kurds continuously get the short end of the stick despite US support.  Turks like Erdouchegan consider them a threat to Turkish influence in the region and while the PKK was problematic in the past he still brings up old ghosts to stoke tensions.  Kurds are a threat to his grip and Erdo would rather kiss up to Salafists.  

A lot of Kurds are also Yazidi (Yezidi) which is an offshoot of Zoroastrianism.  Muslims seem to go bananas at these folks and consider them apostates or heretics or something else.  It's why ISIS finds it fitting to enslave them while leftists and hardcore Muslims excuse this sort of behavior to spite some lesser Western issue.  Just look at SoG...he hates Kurds and is a complete cuck to Islam.


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 24, 2015)




----------



## Mael (Nov 24, 2015)

*Russia's Putin calls Turkey's downing of Russian jet 'stab in the back'*



> President Vladimir Putin called Turkey's downing of a Russian fighter jet a stab in the back administered by "the accomplices of terrorists," saying the incident would have serious consequences for Moscow's relations with Ankara.
> 
> Speaking in the Russian Black Sea resort of Sochi on Tuesday before a meeting with Jordan's King Abdullah, Putin said the downed plane had been attacked inside Syria when it was 1 kilometer (0.62 miles) from the Turkish border and had come down 4 kilometers (2.49 miles) inside Syria.
> 
> ...


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-putin-idUSKBN0TD1J420151124

Well shit, Russia, what did you expect?


----------



## Megu-Nee (Nov 24, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


>


he looks like he's going to dig his nose


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 24, 2015)

Mael said:


> It's why ISIS finds it fitting to enslave them while *leftists* and hardcore Muslims excuse this sort of behavior to spite some lesser Western issue.



Source, or gtfo. 



> Just look at SoG...he hates Kurds and is a complete cuck to Islam.



I don't. But unlike you I don't have wet dreams where I get gangbanged by sweaty Peshmerga either, so...


----------



## N120 (Nov 24, 2015)

No fan of turkey, but they have every right to control their own airspace. Russian crafts do this regularly, it's become a habit for them. Constantly invading airspace of other sovereign nations without permission, as far as the Uk.

This habit started way before they entered Syria.


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 24, 2015)

N120 said:


> No fan of turkey, but they have every right to control their own airspace. Russian crafts do this regularly, it's become a habit for them. Constantly invading airspace of other sovereign nations without permission, as far as the Uk.
> 
> This habit started way before they entered Syria.


Thats because the "WE WUZ EMPIRE AND SHEEEIT" crowd aka most of Europe is too scared of Gopnikistan because of the "DONT POKE DA RUSSIAN BEAR XDDDDD" meme


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 24, 2015)

> *US-armed Syrian rebels 'hit Russian helicopter with missile' as it searched for downed plane pilots*
> A US-armed Syrian rebel group claims it has hit a Russian military helicopter with an anti-tank missile, forcing it to make an emergency landing.
> 
> The helicopter was understood to have been among a number of Russian aircraft searching for the two pilots from an Su-24 jet which was downed by the Turkish military.
> ...


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...earched-for-downed-plane-pilots-a6746846.html

Meanwhile Twinkistan Aka Europe shit their pants at the thought of a war with Russia


----------



## stream (Nov 24, 2015)

I'm still a bit surprised that Turkey would simply shoot down the plane. I can only assume that this has happened regularly, and that they have complained more and more and ended up saying that the next time they'll shoot it down. I didn't hear this happening, but then of course nobody would bother reporting something so unimportant.

EDIT: yeah indeed, now that I read the latest messages, it seems that's what it happened. They basically shot it down because it was the only way to make Russia pay attention.

I mean, it's not like their interests in the war clash. Russia wants Assad to get back in power, and Turkey doesn't care who's in power, as long as Kurds don't get more independence.


----------



## Nemesis (Nov 24, 2015)

Maybe when Turkey violates Greek airspace like they do on a daily basis they can be shot down now.  Also is there actually any proof the flight went into Turkish airspace that wasn't some minor part of Turkey that is like a land penninsular between two parts of Syria?


----------



## stream (Nov 24, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> I don't know if don't understand or if you're just ignorant.
> 
> Let me explain by quoting someone I found who is better at it:



I'm going to assume good will here, but really, reading this, I have to disagree:



> For millennia, the Kurds were an integral part of the Iranian homeland and formed many of the most prominent dynasties (see, the Safavid dynasty.) *It was only starting in the 14th century or so that large numbers of Kurds were separated from Iran*


In my book, seven centuries of separation is way old enough for Kurds to be considered not Iranian any more.


----------



## perman07 (Nov 24, 2015)

Why doesn't this shit have it's own thread? It's the closest thing to a confrontation between Russia and NATO since the cold war (not that I'm suggesting WW3 will occur, but the event is significant). Hope Turkey gets expelled out of NATO for this shit, they're clearly too much of a wildcard for those clauses that can be invoked.


----------



## Tenrol (Nov 24, 2015)

gg turkey


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 24, 2015)

stream said:


> I'm going to assume good will here, but really, reading this, I have to disagree:
> 
> 
> In my book, seven centuries of separation is way old enough for Kurds to be considered not Iranian any more.



They're not Iranian. But an Iranian people. Seven hundred years doesn't change that. Seven thousand years probably would.

As posted before (which you might have missed):


> They are culturally and linguistically closely related to the Iranian peoples[51][53][54] and, as a result, are often themselves classified as an Iranian people.[55] Kurdish nationalists claim that the Kurds are descended from the Hurrians and the Medes,[56] (the latter being another Iranian people[57]) and the claimed Median descent is reflected in the words of the Kurdish national anthem: "we are the children of the Medes and Kai Khosrow".[58] The Kurdish languages form a subgroup of the Northwestern Iranian languages.[59][60]



Now I'm adding this:


> The Iranian peoples include Balochs, *Kurds*, Gilaks, Lurs, Mazanderanis, Ossetians, Pashtuns, Pamiris, Persians, Tajiks, Talysh people, Wakhis and Yaghnobis.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Nov 24, 2015)

Tenrol said:


> gg turkey



i bet that was the longest 2 minutes of that poor son of a bitchs life


----------



## Pliskin (Nov 24, 2015)

RAGING BONER said:


> i bet that was the longest 2 minutes of that poor son of a bitchs life


And the last, too. Rebels claim one pilote is dead. Couldnt find anything on the second.


----------



## Megaharrison (Nov 24, 2015)

Russkie helicopter getting blown up by anti-Assad fighters

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IschF-ihjS0[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## stream (Nov 24, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> They're not Iranian. But an Iranian people. Seven hundred years doesn't change that. Seven thousand years probably would.


All right? I guess it's a matter of how wide we consider the definition of "Iranian". Not that important


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Nov 24, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...earched-for-downed-plane-pilots-a6746846.html
> 
> Meanwhile *Twinkistan Aka Europe shit their pants* at the thought of a war with Russia



Russia stronk(is this the only place that is said?) though.


----------



## Megaharrison (Nov 24, 2015)

This might explain why Russian jets don't really seem to know where they're flying.


----------



## Jagger (Nov 24, 2015)

Turkey, you bloody idiot.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Nov 24, 2015)

so much for Erdogan - Putin friendship

R.I.P. Turkish Stream


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Nov 24, 2015)

It's not quite that simple. Turkey is a NATO member. Russia can't simply go to war them without pulling NATO members into war with them. I can see that Europe doesn't want war. The attitude is clearly focused on economic recovery as opposed to war. The continent is averse to such things as it should be. Let's hope this issue is resolved quickly and without any further blood shed.


----------



## Mider T (Nov 24, 2015)

Honestly, about time someone took action at Russia's almost daily violation of airspace.  This is significant though.  I don't think Putin has the time or money to retaliate however.


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Nov 24, 2015)

Turkey violates greek airspace every fucking day...


----------



## baconbits (Nov 24, 2015)

Glad Turkey did this.  I'd like to see the West take a similar stance to Russia and China.


----------



## Mael (Nov 24, 2015)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Turkey violates greek airspace every fucking day...



But nobody gives a fuck about Greece.

You're just mad Russia got slapped.


----------



## ForzaRoma (Nov 24, 2015)

Tenrol said:


> gg turkey



And here I thought there was an unspoken rule to not shoot at parachuting pilots.


----------



## Sferr (Nov 24, 2015)

Nemesis said:


> Maybe when Turkey violates Greek airspace like they do on a daily basis they can be shot down now.  Also is there actually any proof the flight went into Turkish airspace that wasn't some minor part of Turkey that is like a land penninsular between two parts of Syria?



It was a 3km thin strand of land, surrounded by Syrian territory on 3 sides. The plane literally was in a Turkish airspace for a few seconds. That's the radar picture, provided by Turkey itself:


----------



## Sferr (Nov 24, 2015)

ForzaRoma said:


> And here I thought there was an unspoken rule to not shoot at parachuting pilots.



It's a pretty spoken rule. To do this is officially a war crime.


----------



## Mael (Nov 24, 2015)

Sferr said:


> It's a pretty spoken rule. To do this is officially a war crime.



Who is going to prosecute what look like non-organized rebels?

I don't get why people expect irregulars to somehow abide by these sorts of things.


----------



## Jay. (Nov 24, 2015)

I'm with Putin on this one.


Turkey is pro ISIS at this rate


----------



## Nemesis (Nov 24, 2015)

Mael said:


> But nobody gives a fuck about Greece.
> 
> You're just mad Russia got slapped.



If Turkey does it to someone else then they have no leg to stand on when it happens to them.  Pure and simple.  Doesn't matter if it is a BFF or someone we're having issues with.


----------



## baconbits (Nov 24, 2015)

Jay. said:


> I'm with Putin on this one.
> 
> 
> Turkey is pro ISIS at this rate



Don't fall for the spin that Putin is doing this to attack ISIS.  From all credible reports he's acting to remove all opponents to Assad, even US backed rebels.


----------



## N120 (Nov 24, 2015)

Jay. said:


> I'm with Putin on this one.
> 
> 
> Turkey is pro ISIS at this rate



Isis maybe the new boogeyman but Assad is far worse.


----------



## Sferr (Nov 24, 2015)

baconbits said:


> Don't fall for the spin that Putin is doing this to attack ISIS.  From all credible reports he's acting to remove all opponents to Assad, even US backed rebels.


US directly backed rebels, who are SDF, were never attacked by Russia even once:


Also, ISIS is not the only radical organisation, fighting in Syria.
There are many others, like this one:



N120 said:


> Isis maybe the new boogeyman but Assad is far worse.


Ha ha ha, no.


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 24, 2015)

Sferr said:


> US directly backed rebels, who are SDF, were never attacked by Russia even once:
> 
> 
> Also, ISIS is not the only radical organisation, fighting in Syria.
> ...


Yeah dude
Putin is always right bro
He is so manly bro, look at his muscles dude 
I bet he pumps and Dumps dem hos after getting his swole on at the gym brooooo
Why can't Obama go to the gym and his some muscles so us "Straight" guys could jerk off to his manliness in a manly way


----------



## N120 (Nov 24, 2015)

Sferr said:


> US directly backed rebels, who are SDF, were never attacked by Russia even once:
> 
> 
> Also, ISIS is not the only radical organisation, fighting in Syria.
> ...



It's no laughing matter, im serious.

Dont let the media poster child of terrorism fool you into thinking there aren't worse players out there.

 The problem you have with Isis is that they exported their murdeous activity to include its external foes who are involving themselves in their fight via terror attacks.

That's the only thing that makes them a more prominent figure in this conflict, or atleast has propelled them to the level of notoriority they love and bathe in,  but reality they have done nothing that Assad hasn't already been doing for years, way before Isis entered the western lense and continues to do, he's done far worse. Short of externalising the conflict.


----------



## baconbits (Nov 24, 2015)

Sferr said:


> US directly backed rebels, who are SDF, were never attacked by Russia even once:
> 
> 
> Also, ISIS is not the only radical organisation, fighting in Syria.
> There are many others, like this one:



I disagree with you:





I think its pretty well established that Putin only acts in his own interests, not altruisticly.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 24, 2015)

N120 said:


> It's no laughing matter, im serious.
> 
> dont let the media poster child of terrorism fool you into thinking there aren't worse players out there. The problem with Isis is that they exported their murdeous activity to include those who are involving themselves in their fight via terror attacks.
> That's the only thing that makes the, more prominent but reality they have done nothing that Assad hasn't already been doing for years, way befor Isis entered the western lens.



Assad is bad sure, but if you had to pick under whose rule you'd rather live wouldn't you pick Damascus over Raqqa?



baconbits said:


> I think its pretty well established that Putin only acts in his own interests, not altruisticly.



I think that's pretty much true for all states.


----------



## N120 (Nov 24, 2015)

Russia is fighting assays war and is tagetting govt opposition. That's the role they are playing, they didn't enter Syria to fight Isis but to secure Assad.


----------



## N120 (Nov 24, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Assad is bad sure, but if you had to pick under whose rule you'd rather live wouldn't you pick Damascus over Raqqa?



I'd prefer neither tbh, you either fight for a brutal regime that has barrel bombed it's own citizens or live under the brutal gang of thugs of former Baathist party members hidden under the cloak of religion.

I've watched this conflict unfold since the beginning as I'm sure we all have and the images and stories I read and heard still haunt me to this day of what shabiha and co did to innocent Syrian men,women and children. They spared no one.

Ripping babies out of pregnant women, then cutting of the pieces of that baby in front the wounded mother and father, cutting open the fathers eyelids so he has no choice but to see the horror unfold in front him as the shabiha scum laugh and joke. Raping wives,mothers,daughters in front of their male family members, punching holes into toddlers and stubbing out lit cigarettes ends on various parts of their bodies, torturing the men physically,emotionally, mentally after which they are stabbed, beaten before being shot to make sure theyre dead.  I can't even put into words the horrors they inflicted on their victims before killing them. This was done solely to induce terror into the masses. And this is what sparked the flames of jihadi movements heading straight for Damascus.

I couldn't live with myself if I ever found myself ever supporting Assad or his regime. By comparison, Isis are very tame.


----------



## baconbits (Nov 24, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> I think that's pretty much true for all states.



I agree with you.  I think there are some people that like Putin so much that they ignore this fact.


----------



## Sferr (Nov 24, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> Yeah dude
> Putin is always right bro
> He is so manly bro, look at his muscles dude
> I bet he pumps and Dumps dem hos after getting his swole on at the gym brooooo
> Why can't Obama go to the gym and his some muscles so us "Straight" guys could jerk off to his manliness in a manly way


You sound like you are fapping to him 



N120 said:


> It's no laughing matter, im serious.
> 
> Dont let the media poster child of terrorism fool you into thinking there aren't worse players out there.
> 
> ...



Look, I don't care at all what Assad had done before when I compare him to ISIS. All I need to know is that ISIS wants to kill every non-Muslim, impose a Sharia law and rape and sell girls who they consider as unbelievers. All I need to see is what happened to Yazidis when ISIS attacked their village. All I need to know is that when ISIS takes over, they would massacre Shias, Kurds, Yezidis, Assyrians etc. while selling their women in the markets of Raqqa. No matter how Assad himself maybe bad, Syrian Army is a secular army, that protects normal Syrian people, its minorities from jihadists. There is no argument in who is better - Assad is much better than ISIS. 

Assad will _have_ to leave but _after_ he gets rid of the jihadists that are all over Syria at the moment.




baconbits said:


> I disagree with you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have provided a video where US secretary of defense himself said that US-backed rebels were not attacked by Russia. Maybe Russia did attack those rebels that US supplied discreetly but at the moment the only force that US openly supplies are Syrian Kurds with their Arab allies and  Russia _never_ attacked them. Not even Assad is fighting them.

And I don't care what Putin's motives are. As long as he attacks ISIS, the rebels that fight together with al-Nusra but doesn't attack Syrian Kurds and their Arab allies, I'm good.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Nov 24, 2015)

*Turkey shoots down russian jet*



> Russian President Vladimir Putin has bitterly condemned the downing of a Russian jet on the Turkey-Syria border.
> He described it as a "stab in the back" committed by "accomplices of terrorists".
> Turkey says its jets shot at the plane after warning that it was violating Turkish airspace. But Moscow says it never strayed from Syrian airspace.
> Nato held an extraordinary meeting at member Turkey's request to discuss the incident.
> ...


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34913173

The anti Isis alliance is in ruins this is just like when the anti-Dong  zhou campaign ended in ruins

 when Yuan Shao asked For Sun Juan to hand over the imperial seal  and when cacao betrayed him and turned his son on eachother! Exactly like that


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Nov 24, 2015)

All the anti assad rebels are jihadists. You can call them Al nusra, al queeda isis or whatever. Those rebels were chanting Allah Akbar over the pilot's dead body.. THERE IS NO MODERATE ANTI ASSAD opposition.


----------



## N120 (Nov 24, 2015)

Sferr said:


> Look, I don't care at all what Assad had done before when I compare him to ISIS. All I need to know is that ISIS wants to kill every non-Muslim, impose a Sharia law and rape and sell girls who they consider as unbelievers. All I need to see is what happened to Yazidis when ISIS attacked their village. All I need to know is that when ISIS takes over, they would massacre Shias, Kurds, Yezidis, Assyrians etc. while selling their women in the markets of Raqqa. No matter how Assad himself maybe bad, Syrian Army is a secular army, that protects normal Syrian people, its minorities from jihadists. There is no argument in who is better - Assad is much better than ISIS.
> 
> Assad will _have_ to leave but _after_ he gets rid of the jihadists that are all over Syria at the moment.



This not only shows how ill informed you are about this conflict but you don't even know the players in the fight or the reality on the ground. 

You think Assad gives a shit about yazidis, Muslim Kurds,Syrians or whatnot? You think the barrel bombs he drops on towns distinguish who is who? You think the dungeons they keep abducted women in, naked, hungry, tortured daily, in ill health, where no one responds to their screams and cry for help, care who they're affiliated with? The crimes you have listed are child's play in comparison to what Assads forces has done and continues to do.

Like i said, your issue and responce is based purely on the notoriority Isis have gained in such a short time.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Nov 24, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> Yeah dude
> Putin is always right bro
> He is so manly bro, look at his muscles dude
> I bet he pumps and Dumps dem hos after getting his swole on at the gym brooooo
> Why can't Obama go to the gym and his some muscles so us "Straight" guys could jerk off to his manliness in a manly way



Starting to understand why you don't like twinks.


----------



## Matariki (Nov 24, 2015)

baconbits said:


> Glad Turkey did this.  I'd like to see the West take a similar stance to Russia and China.


----------



## Sferr (Nov 24, 2015)

N120 said:


> This not only shows how ill informed you are about this conflict but you don't even know the players in the fight or the reality on the ground.
> 
> You think Assad gives a shit about yazidis, Muslims Kurd,Syrian or whatnot? You think the barrel bombs he drops on towns distinguish who is who?


That's exactly why Assad is better. He doesn't care if you are a Yazidi, Kurd etc. If you are his enemy, he will bomb you. If you are with him, he will protect you. ISIS does care who you are and if you are not a religious Sunni, well, run. That's the reason why most of Syria's minorities support Assad. Because for them it's either Assad or death.


N120 said:


> The crimes you have listed are child's play in comparison to what Assads forces has done and continues to do.


This just showed that I shouldn't reply to you anymore.


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 24, 2015)

Sosuke Aizen said:


> Starting to understand why you don't like twinks.


I am simply mocking Putin Cock Riders
The way they talk about him is gay to the max

Same with Reaganites


----------



## N120 (Nov 24, 2015)

Sferr said:


> That's exactly why Assad is better. He doesn't care if you are a Yazidi, Kurd etc. If you are his enemy, he will bomb you. If you are with him, he will protect you. ISIS does care who you are and if you are not a religious Sunni, well, run. That's the reason why most of Syria's minorities support Assad. Because for them it's either Assad or death.
> 
> This just showed that I shouldn't reply to you anymore.



well, I thought informing you of the realities might actually make you rethink the situation based on those realities on the ground and maybe come to a more sensible position.

If you want to have meaningless arguments and hold a silly position based on xfactor style popularity contest then good luck. Just Don't expect your view to be taken seriously.


----------



## Hand Banana (Nov 24, 2015)

Speechless...


----------



## TasteTheDifference (Nov 24, 2015)

To hell with it, let's just support Kurdish irredentism and say they can keep what they take, what could go wrong


----------



## Mael (Nov 24, 2015)

TasteTheDifference said:


> To hell with it, let's just support Kurdish irredentism and say they can keep what they take, what could go wrong



Might as well given how either savage or unworthy every other group is.


----------



## Tyrannos (Nov 24, 2015)

Well finally someone got tired of Putin's BSing and finally drew the line.   And now Putin's pissed.   He's sending a missile cruiser to the coast of Syria, with orders to "support" the air force.   

Which translates to, "Fire on us, we will fire back.   We mean it!"


----------



## Jay. (Nov 24, 2015)

baconbits said:


> Don't fall for the spin that Putin is doing this to attack ISIS.  From all credible reports he's acting to remove all opponents to Assad, even US backed rebels.





N120 said:


> Isis maybe the new boogeyman but Assad is far worse.



That's the problem. Either they are pretty much the same threat to society with their actions or far worse. But I prefer to antagonize ISIS. Cause their actions are based on a retarded ideology. 

Assad's regime is just another power corrupted political affair like in every other country. Assad being a stubborn prick just makes it worse. Erdogan being a bitch doesn't help either.

But if you ask me as long as ISIS gets destroyed I couldn't care less. If Turkey wants to do that shit with Syria. They can.

They will blow each other up some day.

But take ISIS with you

I just feel sorry for the innocents. Hope they can escape this atrocity


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Nov 24, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> I am simply mocking Putin Cock Riders
> The way they talk about him is gay to the max
> 
> Same with Reaganites



Mocking aside, Putin is not a man people should mess with. He will literally kick the shit out of Turks and suplex them into hell!


----------



## N120 (Nov 24, 2015)

the sad reality is, FSA has broken up and turned into this weaker opposition force, though today they did make their presence felt when they took down the Russian helicopter(most likely in retaliation for Russian bombing campaigns)

They were the primary anti Assad force! They were moderate, but the west didn't support them or the Kurds when they most needed. Many here questioned that position we took back then, but that's what unfolded and the Qatari/Saudi backed proxies took full advantage of the situation and paid the most. Obviously this didn't go unnoticed by the Iranians and Russians.

Then came Isis who took over oil fields relinquishing them from foreign control and accumulated much of the fighting force, and of course the genius PR campaign sowle up their ranks with foreign fighters, further solidifying their presence within the region.

And they will continue on, because this internal conflict has become a proxie war for external powers and everyone is treading lightly around the conflict leaving a vacuum that allows both Assad and Isis to safeguard themselves.

For as long as Assad is in power it's futile to talk about combating Isis. The opposition to his regime is too deep and too great, it can't be undermined or sidelined.

Just wishful thinking, Assad and Isis feed off eachother.


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 24, 2015)

Sosuke Aizen said:


> Mocking aside, Putin is not a man people should mess with. He will literally kick the shit out of Turks and suplex them into hell!


And Get his Countries Economy destroyed in process
Do people here think real life is anything like Hollywood movies or some shit?


----------



## Stelios (Nov 24, 2015)

> Turkey shot down a Russian fighter jet on Tuesday after it veered into its airspace for 17 seconds, in a long-feared clash that starkly demonstrated the dangers for international security of Syria?s war.
> 
> Russian president Vladimir Putin warned that the ?tragic incident? would bring ?serious consequences? for Turkey, following Russia?s first loss of life in a military engagement with a Nato country since the cold war.
> 
> ...



One can only hope Russia won't bomb the f out of Turkey...


----------



## Jay. (Nov 24, 2015)

Putin's oil lust will ruin the whole orient


----------



## Jin-E (Nov 24, 2015)

N120 said:


> They were the primary anti Assad force! They were moderate, but the west didn't support them or the Kurds when they most needed. Many here questioned that position we took back then, but that's what unfolded and the Qatari/Saudi backed proxies took full advantage of the situation and paid the most. Obviously this didn't go unnoticed by the Iranians and Russians.
> .



Has anyone actually defined what "moderate" rebels means in this setting, since this catchword has been thrown around ever since the conflict started?


----------



## Megaharrison (Nov 24, 2015)

Putin is a paper tiger along with Russia, whose military is small and antiquated and whose economy is smaller than Italy. They're used to invading te airspace of Sweden and UK and having nothing happen but Turks are just as big of asses as Russia. And Russia doesnt even have the resources for a sustained air campaign against turkey


----------



## Mael (Nov 24, 2015)

Stelios said:


> One can only hope Russia won't bomb the f out of Turkey...



They won't.  Russia isn't as stronk as people put on.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Nov 24, 2015)

Sosuke Aizen said:


> Mocking aside, Putin is not a man people should mess with. He will literally kick the shit out of Turks and suplex them into hell!



like he did in Ukraine?


----------



## Jay. (Nov 24, 2015)

Mael said:


> They won't.  Russia isn't as stronk as people put on.



They are. But that wouldn't make sense. Let's say turkish people can't support anti assad people anymore cause Putin fucks them up (pretty sure China would help Putin) and Assad regains his entire power in syria and goes ham in the north on the kurds and then he tries to destroy ISIS (which he can't with his forces that are minimized by then cause he is basically slashing his own military force). ISIS gets whole Syria and builds a new kalifat with weapons from turkish military, syria military and of course the us weapons they somehow got (i wonder how).

Shit is about to go down then. Russia vs ISIS in boss mode without the help of Europe or the US. China will say fuck all of you and just take the oil and leave.

Russian economy breaks, maybe they win the war maybe they don't. Let's say they do they are pretty much fucked themselves. Europe might come for aid but won't really get into the fight. ISIS is gone but so is the entire landscape of syria and iraq lol. The remaining terrorists hide in iraq and wait until shit is over and rebuild themselves as soon as europe and the us leave.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Nov 24, 2015)

*Teenage Austrian 'poster girl for ISIS killed by group for trying to escape*



> An Austrian teenager who became a poster girl for the Islamic State has reportedly been beaten to death by the group after she was caught trying to leave Syria. Sabra Kesinovic, 17, was murdered after she was caught attempting to escape from Raqqa, Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant's (Isil) de facto capital in Syria, according to reports in two Austrian newspapers. She appeared extensively in Isil propaganda material after leaving her native Vienna to join the group together with Sabina Selimovic, a 16-year-old friend.
> 
> The two teenagers were shown wearing Islamic headbands and brandishing Kalashnikov rifles, surrounded by masked male jihadists. They were also shown wearing full Islamic veils and pointing towards heaven. The Austrian government refused to comment on reports in ?sterreich and Kronen Zeitung newspapers that Kesinovic had been beaten to death.  ?We cannot comment on individual cases,? Thomas Schn?ll, a spokesman for the foreign ministry said. Both Austrian women are now believed to be dead, after reports Selimovic was killed in fighting in Syria last year.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mael (Nov 24, 2015)

Reap what you sow, ladies.

It sucks but this is what you signed up for.


----------



## Sansa (Nov 24, 2015)

Turkey is wilding

It's almost like they're supporting ISIS


----------



## Jay. (Nov 24, 2015)

Choa said:


> Turkey is wilding
> 
> It's almost like they're supporting ISIS



They are

getting rid of the kurds and Assad at the same time with supporting ISIS.


Sad truth.


----------



## Chelydra (Nov 24, 2015)

Lets hope Turkey keeps this up.


----------



## Mael (Nov 24, 2015)

Lol still using Sputnik News.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Nov 24, 2015)

Sosuke Aizen said:


> Mocking aside, Putin is not a man people should mess with. He will literally kick the shit out of Turks and suplex them into hell!



What are you doing? :
You are supposed to demonize Putin.


----------



## Mider T (Nov 24, 2015)

Bannai said:


> Erdogan in 2012: Brief Airspace Violations Can't Be Pretext for Attack



Wasn't that before he went off the deep end?


----------



## Jay. (Nov 25, 2015)

Still think China is gonna pull a big move soon


----------



## Garcher (Nov 25, 2015)

she deserved it

I hope it was painful


----------



## Mael (Nov 25, 2015)

Jay. said:


> Still think China is gonna pull a big move soon



You don't know China then.  Their whole schtick is staying as much to themselves as possible.

What you'll see is more offensive operations in Xinjiang, their home turf.


----------



## Stelios (Nov 25, 2015)

Wikileaks Twitter :Journalists: Learn to do basic maths. Look at Turkey's statement to UN: 1.15 miles / 17 seconds x 60 x 60 = 243 miles/hour = 391 km/hour

>su-24 
>flying at stall speed
Yeah right.
Time will tell if Turkey's gamble will pay off...


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Nov 25, 2015)

Let's just hope the Turks aren't attacked by Russia. That would cause a huge shit storm which nobody rational wants.


----------



## Kaneda30 (Nov 25, 2015)

Russia won't attack Turkey over such a minor incident. Turkey was in the right to do what it did yesterday. Sure, if we take the incident out of context, the Turkish reaction seems exaggerated, but seeing how they issued a lot of warnings over similar trespasses in the last 2 months, it was a matter of prestige for them to react.


----------



## Sansa (Nov 25, 2015)

Conflicting report by the surviving Russian pilot makes it seem as if Turkey fabricated the warnings they said they issued and said there's no way he could've been in Turkish airspace, but who knows.

Shooting down a jet for a 17 second pass through is still very unreasonable, especially after Erdogan said brief airspace violation is no pretext for an attack, as well as shooting the parachuting pilots "in self defence".

Exactly what are you defending yourself from in that situation?


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 25, 2015)

>all of those British"Patriots" cockriding Putin
  

*"HOW DARE TURKEY HUMILIATE PUTIN KUN LIKE THAT,  PUTIN IS NIGEL'S ALLY AGAINTS THE UNHOLY GERMANY AND THE LIBLABCONS, PUTIN WILL HELP US RESTORE MUH EMPIRE"*

Inb4 MbS defends this


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Nov 25, 2015)

Turkey is an embarrassing member of NATO.


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 25, 2015)




----------



## Matariki (Nov 25, 2015)

*The surviving pilot of a Russian plane shot down by Turkey on the Syrian border has said no warning was given.*



> Capt Konstantin Murakhtin told Russian television there was "no way" the jet could have violated Turkish airspace, as Turkey said it did.
> 
> Russia said Capt Murakhtin was rescued in a 12-hour operation involving special forces.
> Turkey insists the pilots were warned 10 times before the plane was shot down.
> ...



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34925229


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## Son of Goku (Nov 25, 2015)

Well, one thing should be obvious: Turkey wouldn't have shot that plane down, if Russia wasn't bombing anti-Assad/Jihadist fighters, whom they support. And of course Russia working with the Kurds didn't help either.


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## Kaneda30 (Nov 25, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> Well, one thing should be obvious: Turkey wouldn't have shot that plane down, if Russia wasn't bombing anti-Assad/Jihadist fighters, whom they support. And of course Russia working with the Kurds didn't help either.



Probably, but the fact that Russia didn't heed so many warnings over the past 2 months certainly pushed the Turks even more.


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 25, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> Probably, but the fact that Russia didn't heed so many warnings over the past 2 months certainly pushed the Turks even more.


Russia thought that Turkey was like the Yuropoor/americucks
They were wrong


----------



## Utopia Realm (Nov 25, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> Russia thought that Turkey was like the Yuropoor/americucks
> They were wrong



I don't see either side backing down one bit atm. Russia is going to counter Turkey's dunt hunt but we'll see what happens as they continue to bomb Anti-Asad Forces and the like.


----------



## |)/-\\/\/|\| (Nov 25, 2015)

Le M?le Absolu said:


> Turkey is an embarrassing member of NATO.



Yes let's all watch and clap as Russia bombs Turks near Turkey's border far away from any Russian territory and let's get shocked when Turkey shoots down a jet that's bombing Turks. If Russia is allowed to bomb people far away from Russia, I think Turkey has the right to shoot down a jet that's bombing Turkmen near its borders. 

Regardless whether the people being bombed areTurks or not, if anyone has the right for military action near Turkey's border it's Turkey not Russia whose borders are thousands of miles away. NATO is looking like a giant pussy atm.


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## Son of Goku (Nov 25, 2015)

|)/-\\/\/|\| said:


> if anyone has the right for military action near Turkey's border it's Turkey not Russia



What about Syria? Is Syria allowed to take military action within it's own borders? And if so, can't they ask Russia for help?


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## Stelios (Nov 25, 2015)

Holy shit Russia bombed Turkish truck convoy


----------



## Sansa (Nov 25, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> Russia thought that Turkey was like the Yuropoor/americucks
> They were wrong


Yeah they were wrong

Turks are worse 

They're Greece tier.


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## Kaneda30 (Nov 25, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> What about Syria? Is Syria allowed to take military action within it's own borders? And if so, can't they ask Russia for help?



Of course they can, but both the Syrians and the Russians must be careful not to cross Turkish airspace whilst executing their military actions


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## OutlawJohn (Nov 25, 2015)

Word is Russia downed a convoy of trucks owned by IHH Humanitarian Relief Foundation. IHH is a close ally to Erodogan if I'm not mistaken. Waiting on a credible source to confirm.


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## Sansa (Nov 25, 2015)

It's habbening


----------



## Sansa (Nov 25, 2015)




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## Nemesis (Nov 25, 2015)

Nothing so far from BBC, Sky, CNN or Fox about this.


----------



## Chelydra (Nov 25, 2015)

Only thing happening is Russia is posturing by moving missiles near turkey. Aside from that they cant really do anything since Turkey is a NATO member, and in theory if a NATO member is attacked they can call on everyone else to defend them... assuming people honor their treaty obligations though


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## Nemesis (Nov 25, 2015)

Essentially 2 sides will say some shit for a few weeks, neither side wants war and behind the doors some backroom deal will be reached where both sides save face for their own supporters kind of thing.


----------



## N120 (Nov 25, 2015)

This isn't the first time Russia has violated Turkish airspace, and it isn't the first time they "never heard the multiple warnings", they do this even close to the UK airspace where often times we have to scramble our own jets and escort them out.

In this case, Russian aircraft wasn't just patrolling the world, but actually engaging in a civil war siding with a regime that no one in the region supports, or atleast seen to openly support. Not to forget Russia are bombing multiple factions (including pro turkey/US groups).

With that in mind, Turkey has a right to deny the use of its airspace For Russia to carry out its op.


----------



## eHav (Nov 25, 2015)

N120 said:


> This isn't the first time Russia has violated Turkish airspace, and it isn't the first time they "never heard the multiple warnings", they do this even close to the UK airspace where often times we have to scramble our own jets and escort them out.
> 
> In this case, Russian aircraft wasn't just patrolling the world, but actually engaging in a civil war siding with a regime that no one in the region supports, or atleast seen to openly support. Not to forget Russia are bombing multiple factions (including pro turkey/US groups).
> 
> With that in mind, Turkey has a right to deny the use of its airspace For Russia to carry out its op.



the airspace violation lasted 17 seconds or something. not enough time to take out a plane. they just wanted to pull the trigger and were looking for an excuse.

Putin doesnt even have to deal with turkey direcly, he can just arm whoever oposes them, cut of their gas etc etc.


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## Kaneda30 (Nov 26, 2015)

eHav said:


> the airspace violation lasted 17 seconds or something. not enough time to take out a plane. they just wanted to pull the trigger and were looking for an excuse.
> .



Of course they were waiting to pull the trigger. They even said so 1 month ago. It's the Russians fault they persisted with the violations.

?What we have received from Russia this morning is [an admission] that this was a mistake and that they respect Turkey?s borders and this will not happen again,? Davutoğlu was quoted as saying by local media. ?*Necessary steps would be taken against whoever violates Turkey?s borders*.?

Source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/05/turkey-says-russian-warplane-violated-airspace


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Nov 26, 2015)

|)/-\\/\/|\| said:


> Yes let's all watch and clap as Russia bombs Turks near Turkey's border far away from any Russian territory and let's get shocked when Turkey shoots down a jet that's bombing Turks. If Russia is allowed to bomb people far away from Russia, I think Turkey has the right to shoot down a jet that's bombing Turkmen near its borders.
> 
> Regardless whether the people being bombed areTurks or not, if anyone has the right for military action near Turkey's border it's Turkey not Russia whose borders are thousands of miles away. NATO is looking like a giant pussy atm.



.....it's an embarrassing member of NATO for it links with Daesh. I was also impressed by the way the Turks do a minute of silence for the recent events. These allies.....


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## Kaneda30 (Nov 26, 2015)

Le M?le Absolu said:


> .....it's an embarrassing member of NATO for it links with Daesh. I was also impressed by the way the Turks do a minute of silence for the recent events. These allies.....



Current links with ISIS? You do realize Turkey is actively bombing ISIS in the last few months and it has suffered recent terrorist attacks from ISIS, right? 

Also you can't judge an entire country based on the attitude of football supporters. Lack of respect during moments of silence is very common in Turkey. Disgusting behavior? Yes.


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## Deleted member 235437 (Nov 26, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> Current links with ISIS? You do realize Turkey is actively bombing ISIS in the last few months and it has suffered recent terrorist attacks from ISIS, right?
> 
> Also you can't judge an entire country based on the attitude of football supporters. Lack of respect during moments of silence is very common in Turkey. Disgusting behavior? Yes.





This is pretty funny. By terrorist attacks, you mean the attacks that have repeatedly targetted the pro-Kurdish parties in Turkey? Please the only people Turkey have been bombing in Syria and Northern Iraq are the PKK and other Kurdish groups. Pretty much a known fact that Turkey is buying oil from ISIS as well and helping to fund them


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## Kaneda30 (Nov 26, 2015)

Ankara bombings inside job theory? 

If Turkey had links with ISIS, then it would have been logical if the perpetrators would have been indicated to be Kurdish separatists. The current events allowed for a widespread hunt for ISIS agents inside Turkey.

If we are going to talk about past Turkish  links with ISIS, then there enough clues in that direction, but in 2015 this theory is ridiculous.

In the present Turkey supports other terrorist organizations such as Al-Nusra, Mujahedeen and other so called "moderate" rebels, but not ISIS.


----------



## |)/-\\/\/|\| (Nov 26, 2015)

Le M?le Absolu said:


> .....it's an embarrassing member of NATO for it links with Daesh. I was also impressed by the way the Turks do a minute of silence for the recent events. These allies.....



I have to say that accusations of links with ISIS are pretty easy to throw around. I'm pretty sure that Turkey is avoiding a military confrontation with ISIS and might be using some channels to keep it this way since they are just across the border. If you ask me, that's the right thing to do. Why would Turkey go to war against ISIS on the ground while the rest of Europe keep their troops safe? Until you have boots on the grounds that are fighting ISIS, you can't blame Turkey for not doing that. Until you remove Assad, there is no point in fighting ISIS because it's impossible without a solution to the Syrian situation. At least Turkey is very solid about that except its NATO allies are neither helping much about Assad and are actually working AGAINST Turkey's national interest by supporting the Kurds. Now these are the great allies I suppose.


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## Deleted member 235437 (Nov 26, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> Ankara bombings inside job theory?
> 
> If Turkey had links with ISIS, then it would have been logical if the perpetrators would have been indicated to be Kurdish separatists. The current events allowed for a widespread hunt for ISIS agents inside Turkey.
> 
> ...



Pretty naive to believe that there is no connection between Turkey and ISIS anymore. But sure let's go ahead and ignore the fact they've been bombing Kurdish areas more than they've been "targeting" ISIS. It's not a stretch of the imagination to think that Turkey is funding ISIS. They're doing what Erdogan has wanted to do in regards to keeping Kurds down, why not fund them?


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## Kaneda30 (Nov 26, 2015)

Khaleesi said:


> Pretty naive to believe that there is no connection between Turkey and ISIS anymore. But sure let's go ahead and ignore the fact they've been bombing Kurdish areas more than they've been "targeting" ISIS. It's not a stretch of the imagination to think that Turkey is funding ISIS. They're doing what Erdogan has wanted to do in regards to keeping Kurds down, why not fund them?



Pretty naive to believe *there is still a connection* between ISIS and Turkey, especially after all the US pressure in the last year.

Turkey has made it clear that they regarded Kurds as more dangerous to their state than ISIS. That's why they tolerated ISIS activity for a lot of years. From their point of view it was terrorists taking out other terrorists. Was it a mistake? Of course, and tbh so is their support for some of the Syrian rebels.


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## Sansa (Nov 26, 2015)

>Turkey claimed it had no Idea the jet violating its airspace was Russian

This is some unreal backpedaling 

Putin has guided AA missiles ready and waiting off the coast of Lattakia, if a Turkish jet flies a centimetre across the Syrian border it's getting lit up like a Christmas tree. 

Also, if you truly believe that Turkey isn't connected to ISIS, then those glasses you have on are a deep shade of red.


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## Kaneda30 (Nov 26, 2015)

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


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## Deleted member 198194 (Nov 26, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> Pretty naive to believe *there is still a connection* between ISIS and Turkey, especially after all the US pressure in the last year.
> 
> Turkey has made it clear that they regarded Kurds as more dangerous to their state than ISIS. That's why they tolerated ISIS activity for a lot of years. From their point of view it was terrorists taking out other terrorists. Was it a mistake? Of course, and tbh so is their support for some of the Syrian rebels.



What type of shilling is this? 

Turkey has close ties with ISIS.  This is a fact.  

http://www.businessinsider.com/links-between-turkey-and-isis-are-now-undeniable-2015-7


Turkey and ISIS have common enemies: Kurds and Assad.  They have pretty blatantly been undergoing oil trade, and Turkey has been pumping hundreds of millions of dollars into their coffers.  ISIS's terrorists have been given free reign by Turkey and continue to do so.  An ISIS leader was documented to have had dinner with one of Turdogan's sons.  

Let's reiterate;

- ISIS and Turkey have common enemies.  
- Turkey has consistently been lenient toward ISIS militarily 
- Turkey has factually been funding ISIS and are proven sponsors of terrorism 


What's your counter to this?  That the U.S. told them not to so they can't possibly be doing it?  Holy shit the lack of common sense.


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## Stelios (Nov 26, 2015)

Mael said:


> They won't.  Russia isn't as stronk as people put on.



22 hours later


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## Alwaysmind (Nov 26, 2015)

I wonder how things would be had Turkey been part of the EU.


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## Stelios (Nov 26, 2015)

Alwaysmind said:


> I wonder how things would be had Turkey been part of the EU.



Until the Cyprus matter is solved that's never gonna happen.
Also Erdogan's been pushing Turkey back to the past by adding 8 hours per week (or more? i heard a crazy amount from my Turk friends) of religious indoctrination at school...


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## Kaneda30 (Nov 26, 2015)

afgpride said:


> http://www.businessinsider.com/links-between-turkey-and-isis-are-now-undeniable-2015-7
> 
> 
> Turkey and ISIS have common enemies: Kurds and Assad.  They have pretty blatantly been undergoing oil trade, and Turkey has been pumping hundreds of millions of dollars into their coffers.  ISIS's terrorists have been given free reign by Turkey and continue to do so.  An ISIS leader was documented to have had dinner with one of Turdogan's sons.
> ...



1) Assad, Russian and ISIS have common enemies: The Syrians Rebels. Russian have concentrated their bombings in the northwestern part of Syria, targeting Al-Nusra terrorists. Does that mean Assad and Putin are working with ISIS? Of course not. You see, it may come as a shock to you, but a state can fight multiple terrorist organisations at the same time.

2) Turkey has been lenient towards ISIS until this summer, because they regard the Kurds as the bigger threat to their national security. US pressure plus border skirmishes and increased flows of refugees from ISIS territories have caused a shift in Turkish politics. It is extremely naive of you to underestimate the importance of Turkey's relationship with the US.

3) Lets look at the current facts:

-  Turkey is bombing ISIS
- Turkey's allies led by the US are bombing ISIS
-  Turkey itself has suffered terrorists attacks from ISIS.

In regards to the fact that Turkey is a sponsor of terrorism, my question would be: Which state implicated in the conflict isn't? Organizations such as AL Nusra, YPG, ISIS, Hezbollah have all received support from major powers (and all except ISIS are still receiving direct support).


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## Alwaysmind (Nov 26, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Until the Cyprus matter is solved that's never gonna happen.
> Also Erdogan's been pushing Turkey back to the past by adding 8 hours per week (or more? i heard a crazy amount from my Turk friends) of religious indoctrination at school...




Well it was a hypothetical question. Just wonder if Turkey would have acted differently had it been a EU member. The debate could open on another thread.

What do you mean by more hours? Adding 8 hours to the week or 8 working hours? I assume you mean the latter and not that Turkey is pushing for a clone 25 hours per day calendar.


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## Kaneda30 (Nov 26, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Until the Cyprus matter is solved that's never gonna happen.
> Also Erdogan's been pushing Turkey back to the past by adding 8 hours per week (or more? i heard a crazy amount from my Turk friends) of religious indoctrination at school...



Plus the issue of the Armenian genocide, plus the issues with the Kurds.

Turkey has no chance of joining in the foreseeable future and with a guy like Erdogan leading they aren't even trying to move in that direction.


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## Stelios (Nov 26, 2015)

Alwaysmind said:


> Well it was a hypothetical question. Just wonder if Turkey would have acted differently had it been a EU member. The debate could open on another thread.
> 
> What do you mean by more hours? Adding 8 hours to the week or 8 working hours? I assume you mean the latter and not that Turkey is pushing for a clone 25 hours per day calendar.




http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30375569



to quote from those articles:



> Some observers are less circumspect about the AKP’s intentions. “Their ultimate aim is controlling society,” says Şafak Pavey, a member of parliament for the main opposition People’s Republican Party (CHP). “*In order to prevent a threat to their regime in the future by those who study in modern education, [they desire that] at least 11 out of 40 hours teaching time should be dedicated to compulsory religious education.*” As evidence, Pavey points to a leaked audio recording released this summer, allegedly of Erdoğan’s son Bilal – whom, she claims, plays an unofficial role in forming education policy – delivering advice to a meeting of Islamic foundations and local education officials in August 2013. The recording was part of a police investigation into alleged corruption at T?rgev, an educational charity on which Bilal Erdoğan serves as an executive board member.


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## Alwaysmind (Nov 26, 2015)

Oh I get it now. thanks for that. Sorry, I am a bit tired too and I misread your previous post. My apologies.


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## Kaneda30 (Nov 26, 2015)

afgpride said:


> Turkey and ISIS aren't at war with eachother.



Yeah they just bomb each other peacefully. 



afgpride said:


> Turkey continues to be lenient toward ISIS.  Show me a source proving that Turkey is actively engaged in bombing ISIS militants, not just rhetoric nodding to agreements and not just vague targeting of "terrorists" that are clearly Kurds.



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33646314



Google more for yourself. Look for Tukish-ISIL skirmishes along the border. Btw some of the US strikes against ISIS are also carried out from Turkish airbases.



afgpride said:


> Turkey has suffered terrorist attacks from ISIS?  Really now?



Really.






afgpride said:


> Are you going to address the fact that Turkey continues to pump large amounts of money into ISIS through their oil trade, or are you going to waive it off with "U.S. told them to stop therefore nope"?



Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Do you have proof that the Turkish government still tolerates widespread oil commerce over the border after this years incidents?

P.S. - In regards to the Kurds I was talking about Turkish operations against Kurdish organisations in Iraq and Syria, not about the treatment  Kurds in Turkey. Kurds in Turkey are discriminated against, but that's a different discussion.


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## Sansa (Nov 26, 2015)

Are you really so daft as to think that Turkey and ISIS aren't doing the _very_ least to make it not 100% obvious they're best friends?

Are you an ISIS spy?


----------



## Kaneda30 (Nov 26, 2015)

Choa said:


> Are you really so daft as to think that Turkey and ISIS aren't doing the _very_ least to make it not 100% obvious they're best friends?



If by your standards best friends bomb each other, then they might just be best friends. 

LE - A question, just so we don't misunderstand each other. What do you guys think NATO's main purpose is?


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## Alwaysmind (Nov 26, 2015)

Turkey released the audio of the warning they gave the Russian jet.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34929242

Though I do not kow how there can be two different opinion of the crash site.


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## Zyrax (Nov 26, 2015)

Choa said:


> Are you really so daft as to think that Turkey and ISIS aren't doing the _very_ least to make it not 100% obvious they're best friends?
> 
> Are you an ISIS spy?


RIDF detected


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 26, 2015)

*Is Vladimir Putin right to label Turkey ?accomplices of terrorists??*



> * Is Vladimir Putin right to label Turkey ‘accomplices of terrorists’?
> *
> *The relationship hinted at by Russian leader after warplane was shot down is a complex one, and includes links between senior Isis figures and Turkish officials
> *
> ...


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/24/vladimir-putin-turkey-isis-terrorists-warplane-analysis


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## Jay. (Nov 26, 2015)

Not to mentoin that you can buy fake syrian id's in turkey which gives terrorists the opportunity to get into europe


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## Son of Goku (Nov 26, 2015)

*Is Turkey Buying Oil From ISIS? After Downed Plane, Putin Slams Islamic State's Black*



> *Is Turkey Buying Oil From ISIS? After Downed Plane, Putin Slams Islamic State's Black Market Fuel Sales*
> 
> 
> By Elizabeth Whitman @elizabethwhitty e.whitman@ibtimes.com on November 24 2015 12:14 PM EST
> ...


----------



## Alwaysmind (Nov 26, 2015)

Historically speaking, Russia and Turkey have not always seen eye to eye.


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## Zyrax (Nov 26, 2015)

Alwaysmind said:


> Historically speaking, Russia and Turkey have not always seen eye to eye.


Well the West has only been Russia's "Enemy" for 200 Years (aka the Great Game and the Cold War) . Russia's Biggest enemies in terms of time have been Poland and the Ottomans and Lithuania


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## Megaharrison (Nov 26, 2015)

Assad buys oil from ISIS, why can't Turkey?!


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## Son of Goku (Nov 26, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Assad buys oil from ISIS, why can't Turkey?!



Maybe because Turkey has other options? Or is a NATO ally? 

Besides where do you think do the other rebel groups, including the "moderates", get their oil from?


----------



## stream (Nov 26, 2015)

Guess what's Putin having for dinner?

Turkey


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## Son of Goku (Nov 26, 2015)

stream said:


> Guess what's Putin having for dinner?
> 
> Turkey





Watch out though, you don't wanna be accused of Putin-dick-riding.


----------



## Rain (Nov 26, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> Really.



Do you realize that those attacks were against pro-kurdish HDP and against PKK supporters a.k.a Erdogan's biggest enemies in turkey.


----------



## WT (Nov 26, 2015)

Megaharrison said:


> Assad buys oil from ISIS, why can't Turkey?!



Does Israel?


----------



## Kaneda30 (Nov 26, 2015)

stream said:


> Guess what's Putin having for dinner?
> 
> Turkey



In Soviet Russia Turkey shoots you!


----------



## Kaneda30 (Nov 26, 2015)

Rain said:


> Do you realize that those attacks were against pro-kurdish HDP and against PKK supporters a.k.a Erdogan's biggest enemies in turkey.



Inside Job! Quick, you have to do a documentary!


----------



## N120 (Nov 26, 2015)

Problem facing turkey is that they're damned if they do or damned if they don't. people are currently basing a Lot of their arguments/judgement not on the reality on the ground and circumstances everyone finds themselves in, but by judging everyone solely on where they stand with Isis, Which doesn't actually make things any more clear cut.

To paint turkey as the bad guy and Russia the good guy is baffling, Russia is in Syria at the request of Assad and is attacking ALL Syrian opposition forces, (a point raised by David Cameron this week) doing so makes the conflict more complicated and more volatile, not less. Add to that the fact Assad also has dealings with Isis and has been reported to be buying oil off them should make people question Russian hypocracy. 

Putin named turkey as a terrorist supporters, yet the govt he is fighting in favour of and protecting is doing the exact same thing. 

Russia is no angel, nor are its agenda/ activity as clear cut as people like to claim.

turkey on the other hand has a vested interest in what happens within Syria, they border Syria, They are anti-Assad, have had long standing territorial disputes with Syria and have every interest into the outcome of this civil war. They'd much rather have pro Turkish govt in power than another hostile neighbour. of course there's more reasons that have already been mentioned by others but turkeys role isn't as clear cut either.

both sides can be criticised for the same thing.

As for downing of the Russian jet, why would turkey allow a third party to conduct what ever op it desires in and around its territory with complete and utter disregard for them and their interests? There is a slight conflict of interest here for both sides, and Russia is clearly acting beyond its mandate.


----------



## Rain (Nov 26, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> Inside Job! Quick, you have to do a documentary!



I never claimed it was an inside job, i merely pointed how bad is your argument that ISIS and Turkey are hostile to eachother.

Now that you mention it though, of course i don't rule out the possibility of Erdogan government being implicit in these attacks in order to instill fear of civil war in the voting population. His party does have links with grey wolves, a paramilitary neofascist organization which historically served as a rabid dog of the state against the leftists.


----------



## Megaharrison (Nov 26, 2015)

WT said:


> Does Israel?



Lol wtf. Where did you get this idea. We get our oil from Russia and Canada


----------



## Kaneda30 (Nov 26, 2015)

Rain said:


> your argument that ISIS and Turkey are hostile to eachother.



Turkey and ISIS are hostile to each other. That's a fact.

On the other hand Turkey prioritizes Kurdish targets over ISIS targets. That's another fact and its an important issue in the relationship between Turkey and the West.

US will overlook Turkey's local policies, because historically and strategically Turkey's importance as an US and NATO ally far outweighs Erdogan's intolerant and aggressive behavior.


----------



## Nemesis (Nov 26, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> Really.



Considering ISIS gloat about every one of their attacks but were usnusually silent about these bombings it is pretty safe to rule them out.  It was likely the deep state of Turkey responsible


----------



## Kaneda30 (Nov 26, 2015)

Nemesis said:


> Considering ISIS gloat about every one of their attacks but were usnusually silent about these bombings *it is pretty safe to rule them out*.



It's irrefutable evidence you have there. Have you considered being a detective?


----------



## Nemesis (Nov 26, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> It's irrefutable evidence you have there. Have you considered being a detective?



Not my place to prove someone did not do it.

But when ISIS do an attack they gloat about it over and over and over.  Why the hell would they go against their own backgrounds and say nothing?


----------



## Kaneda30 (Nov 26, 2015)

You do realize that historically terrorist attacks are usually not claimed. ISIS does claim its attacks more often than not, but maybe this time it simply wanted to create confusion and dissent in Turkish society so close to the elections.


----------



## Nemesis (Nov 26, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> You do realize that historically terrorist attacks are usually not claimed. ISIS does claim its attack more often than not, but maybe this time it simply wanted to create confusion and dissent in Turkish society so close to the elections.



Historically terrorist attacks ARE claimed.  It is the point of the attacks is to claim responsibility.  Not just ISIS (who claim every single one of theirs) but also Irish Republican groups, ETA, Tamil Tigers, FARC, far right and far left groups, Al-Qaeda, Somali groups, Libyan groups, Boko Haram etc etc etc.  They all claim responsibility for the attacks just after the attack is finished or even when it is on going.   It is more unusual to not claim than it is to claim.


----------



## Kaneda30 (Nov 26, 2015)

Indeed when it comes to modern terrorist organizations, they do try to claim it more often than not, but widespread terrorism, aimed at completely disrupting authority such as resistances during the ww2 tried to work from the shadows. That's what I'm trying to say, that maybe ISIS tried disruptive tactics this time, even if this is not their usual modus operandi.

ISIS is even logically the most obvious culprit. PKK wouldn't hit pro-Kurdish rallies and the inside-job is extremely far-fetched.


----------



## Arya Stark (Nov 26, 2015)

All I know is Turkey wouldn't have done this if they didn't get their ass covered by someone trustworthy. Yes, I'm kinda implying USA here.

As for whether Erdogan supports ISIS or not, I mentioned in my old posts that I don't trust Erdogan much.


----------



## Deleted member 235437 (Nov 26, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> Indeed when it comes to modern terrorist organizations, they do try to claim it more often than not, but widespread terrorism, aimed at completely disrupting authority such as resistances during the ww2 tried to work from the shadows. That's what I'm trying to say, that maybe ISIS tried disruptive tactics this time, even if this is not their usual modus operandi.
> 
> ISIS is even logically the most obvious culprit. PKK wouldn't hit pro-Kurdish rallies and the inside-job is extremely far-fetched.



You literally gave reasons as to why the inside job theory is NOT far fetched. Are you hard in the head or something that you continue to deny all of the facts that are given to you? 

Why is it so far fetched to think Erdogan wouldn't be having oil deals with ISIS and funding them? 

- Both have the same goals
- both are fighting the Kurds. 
- Turkey has literally stated that they would essentially prefer an Islamic state to a Kurdish state. 
- Each of the attacks targetted pro Kurdish parties in some way 
- There are videos of the Turkish police attacking the victims and members at the rally's of each of the attacks. 
- ISIS never claimed responsibility either which they always do. 
- Pretty much proven at this point that Turkey was used as a safe route for Isis members to move through to Syria 
- Turkey has bombed more of who they consider "terrorists" aka the Kurds than they have the group who they were supposed to be attacking aka ISIS
- Turkey quite plainly is buying ISIS oil, not even a theory but something pretty much the whole world knows at this point  

THOSE are the facts, which then leads to the most logical conclusion and that is that Turkey is funding ISIS, but go ahead and continue to deny this


----------



## N120 (Nov 26, 2015)

Turkey has been a gate through for many groups. Isis is a reality now, but at the start of the conflict there was a very different picture entirely. Turkey didn't create Isis, but it is something they have seen grow and come into prominence, hence they have to deal with it.

Only a few years back turkey was accused of allowing fighters into Syria to join other rebel groups such as the FSA, even then there was similar finger pointing going on and accusations flying around.

But the reality is, turkey was towing the coalition line, set by the US and other EU states upto this point. Their priority was containment, they were happy with Isis and every other group to operate within Syria through turkey so long as they pointed their guns towards Assad and didn't make too much trouble elsewhere.

The EU allowed its citizens to make their way into Syria, and didn't discourage it. They all actively supported the conflict.


----------



## Nemesis (Nov 26, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> Indeed when it comes to modern terrorist organizations, they do try to claim it more often than not, but widespread terrorism, aimed at completely disrupting authority such as resistances during the ww2 tried to work from the shadows. That's what I'm trying to say, that maybe ISIS tried disruptive tactics this time, even if this is not their usual modus operandi.
> 
> ISIS is even logically the most obvious culprit. PKK wouldn't hit pro-Kurdish rallies and the inside-job is extremely far-fetched.



Inside job when it comes to Turkey is not far fetched.  Turkey is known for deep state issues ever since Ataturk era as well as groups like Grey Wolves who could have easily done this.


----------



## Kaneda30 (Nov 26, 2015)

Khaleesi said:


> 1)  Both have the same goals
> 2) both are fighting the Kurds.
> 3) Turkey has literally stated that they would essentially prefer an Islamic state to a Kurdish state.
> 4) Each of the attacks targeted pro Kurdish parties in some way
> ...



1) The fact that they have common enemies is not an argument. As I said earlier both ISIS and Assad have common enemies: other Syrian rebels. That doesn't mean they are working together.
2) Again, bot ISIS and Assad are fighting the Syrian Free Army. Not an argument
3)Yes, Turkey prioritizes Kurdish targets over ISIS targets. For the US and Europe, Kurds are a valuable ally, at least short term, against ISIS. For Turkey, especially with a ultra conservative like Erdogan as its leader the fear of a Kurdistan is far larger than ISIS.
4) The moment when ISIS first attacked Turkey, the Turks started retaliation strikes against them. So a state that until 2015 defied even its allies, in regards to its regional politics, decided to shift and attack both Kurds and ISIS. To elaborate though, Turkey was already starting to seriously considerate intervention (even if only symbolic) before the attacks.
5) How does police brutality (which is to be expected given the government hateful rhetoric against Kurds) have anything to do with the bombings?
6) The fact that they didn't claim it doesn't mean that they didn't do it. The Turkish government responded by bombing ISIS outposts, so that's quite a reaction for a government that until that until then we could say indirectly supported ISIS
7) Proof?
8) Yes they have and they still do (see point 3). ISIS is a secondary enemy in Turkish doctrine. The reasons they even started attacking ISIS recently are multiple:
- international pressure (well actually just pressure from the US, because that's the only one that matters to Erdogan)
- border skirmishes and increased refugee numbers from ISIS territories
- the Diyarbakir attack in June
9) The "oil buying" you are talking about is actually *oil smuggling* and Turkey is not the only country towards which this traffic flows. No one is suggesting the Turkish government has or is directly buying from ISIS. Now I'm not naive and it's entirely possible that until recently, when ISIS was tolerated by the Turks, a lot of Turkish entrepreneurs and corrupt Turkish officials have gotten rich through this illegal trade.

So your "facts" are baseless assumptions. Turkey has no interest in funding ISIS. Its main objective is fighting the Kurds in the east (and ISIS as secondary targets) and funding Al Nusra terrorists and Turkmen organizations in the west against Assad.

It is actually logical if you think abot it. Until the summer of 2015 Turks had limited involvement in the east. They basically were content in having ISIS fighting with the Kurds. As soon as they were forced to attack ISIS, they also doubled their efforts against the Kurds, because they wanted to keep the pressure that would otherwise disappear because of ISIL weakening.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Nov 26, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> 1) The fact that they have common enemies is not an argument. As I said earlier both ISIS and Assad have common enemies: other Syrian rebels. That doesn't mean they are working together.
> 2) Again, bot ISIS and Assad are fighting the Syrian Free Army. Not an argument



Indeed the saying should be the enemy of my enemy is my enemy.


----------



## Rain (Nov 26, 2015)

Kaneda30 said:


> Turkey and ISIS are hostile to each other. That's a fact.
> 
> On the other hand Turkey prioritizes Kurdish targets over ISIS targets. That's another fact and its an important issue in the relationship between Turkey and the West.
> 
> US will overlook Turkey's local policies, because historically and strategically Turkey's importance as an US and NATO ally far outweighs Erdogan's intolerant and aggressive behavior.



No, ISIS and Turkey are basically allies in all but a name at this point. ISIS propaganda doesn't even mention Turkey anymore as their target.


----------



## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Nov 26, 2015)

http://news.yahoo.com/russian-warpl...order-town-residents-151555065--business.html


----------



## Stelios (Nov 26, 2015)

Holy fucking shit reports of an s300 taking down a Turkish F-4E at Syria airspace


----------



## Alwaysmind (Nov 26, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Holy fucking shit reports of an s300 taking down a Turkish F-4E at Syria airspace



Well they are being deployed.


----------



## Stelios (Nov 26, 2015)

Some website says that Reuters and Al bayader report of this just 30 mins ago but I can't find the official source


----------



## Alwaysmind (Nov 26, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Holy fucking shit reports of an s300 taking down a Turkish F-4E at Syria airspace





Stelios said:


> Some website says that Reuters and Al bayader report of this just 30 mins ago but I can't find the official source



Well if it happened then I am right intovasking if this will escalate further. 

I read a comment on your yahoo link that Russia advised that Russians living in Turkey leave. But i havnt found anything to support that.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 26, 2015)

I don't know about any turkish jets, but...



> *Russia says 'destroyed' Syria rebels in area where jet brought down*
> 
> AFP
> 3 hours ago
> ...


http://news.yahoo.com/russian-warpl...rder-town-residents-151555065--business.html#

"other mysterious groups"

Probably code for Turkish special forces.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 26, 2015)

> *Why did it take Turkey just 17 seconds to shoot down Russian jet?*
> 
> Mark Galeotti
> 
> ...


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/26/russia-turkey-jet-mark-galeotti


----------



## Alwaysmind (Nov 26, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> I don't know about any turkish jets, but...
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/russian-warpl...rder-town-residents-151555065--business.html#
> 
> ...



That is a rather vague quote.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 26, 2015)

Alwaysmind said:


> That is a rather vague quote.



Yes vague, or dilplomatic.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Nov 26, 2015)

Found the article I was looking for. It does seem that Russian citizens living in Turkey have been told to come back home. 

We are an inch away from ultimatums.


----------



## Sansa (Nov 26, 2015)

Stelios said:


> Holy fucking shit reports of an s300 taking down a Turkish F-4E at Syria airspace





Choa said:


> Putin has guided AA missiles ready and waiting off the coast of Lattakia, if a Turkish jet flies a centimetre across the Syrian border it's getting lit up like a Christmas tree.



**


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 27, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> I don't know about any turkish jets, but...
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/russian-warpl...rder-town-residents-151555065--business.html#
> 
> ...


>Chimping  put this badly
>Putin Cock Riders will view him killing Civilians as Badass


----------



## Alwaysmind (Nov 27, 2015)

Syria, the first air war?


----------



## Megaharrison (Nov 27, 2015)

Russia pounding some more dirt then making up some arbitrary claims in desperation is pretty sad


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 27, 2015)

*David Cameron challenged over 'magical' 70,000 moderates rebels figure*



> *Syria air strikes debate: David Cameron challenged over 'magical' 70,000 moderates figure
> *
> *Senior Tory questions where the 70,000 figure has come from and Labour wants the Prime Minister to clarify this claim before deciding its position*
> 
> ...


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-magical-70000-moderates-figure-a6750161.html


----------



## WT (Nov 27, 2015)

What a bunch of stupid dipshits.

Syria is currently full mercenaries who fight for the higest bidder. ISIS through sale of oil are able to fund them. For the love of God, I hope these "70,000" or whatever the realistic figure is, aren't supplied with weapons because I'm pretty certain its gonna blow back some day.


----------



## Garcher (Nov 27, 2015)

70 000 moderate Islamists


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 27, 2015)

“I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits.” -Winston Churchill
“The part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistic Jews ... is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from Jewish leaders ... The same evil prominence was obtained by Jews in (Hungary and Germany, especially Bavaria).

Although in all these countries there are many non-Jews every whit as bad as the worst of the Jewish revolutionaries, the part played by the latter in proportion to their numbers in the population is astonishing. The fact that in many cases Jewish interests and Jewish places of worship are excepted by the Bolsheviks from their universal hostility has tended more and more to associate the Jewish race in Russia with the villainies which are now being perpetrated”. -Churchill

You must understand that this war is not against Hitler or National Socialism, but against the strength of the German people, which is to be smashed once and for all, regardless of whether it is in the hands of Hitler or a Jesuit priest.. --Winston Churchill

"It is alarming and also nauseating to see Mr. Gandhi, a seditious middle temple lawyer, now posing as a fakir of a type well known in the east, striding half-naked up the steps of the viceregal palace, while he is still organizing and conducting a defiant campaign of civil disobedience, to parley on equal terms with the representative of the king-emperor."

- Winston Churchill, 1930

"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place.""
Churchill


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 27, 2015)

> * Turkey could cut off Islamic State?s supply lines. So why doesn?t it?
> 
> David Graeber
> 
> ...


http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...y-cut-islamic-state-supply-lines-erdogan-isis


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 27, 2015)

> *Research Paper: ISIS-Turkey List*
> 
> Posted: 11/09/2014 11:25 am EST Updated: 11/25/2015 12:59 pm EST
> 
> ...


(Every bulletpoints contains one or more links, see source.)



Soo.... sanctions when?


----------



## Sansa (Nov 27, 2015)

*Turkish F-16s crossed into Syria to shoot down Russian Su-24 on Tuesday*


> A Turkish fighter jet launched a missile at a Russian bomber on Tuesday well ahead of the Su-24 approaching the Turkish border, the chief of Russia’s Air Force said. The bomber remained on Turkish radars for 34 minutes and never received any warnings.
> Trends
> Su-24 downing
> The attack on the Russian Su-24 bomber was intentional and had been planned in advance, Viktor Bondarev, the chief of Russia’s Air Force, announced Friday, calling the incident an “unprecedented backstab.”
> ...


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 27, 2015)

BASED
A
S
E
D


----------



## Sansa (Nov 27, 2015)

> Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has warned Russia's President Vladimir Putin not to "play with fire" over his country's downing of a Russian jet.



So when is Turkey getting glassed again?


----------



## Deleted member 235437 (Nov 27, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> (Every bulletpoints contains one or more links, see source.)
> 
> 
> 
> Soo.... sanctions when?



Obviously all of those valid, logical and well researched facts of information are lies because The US told Turkey to stop funding ISIS so they obviously listened


----------



## Nemesis (Nov 27, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> ?I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion. The famine was their own fault for breeding like rabbits.? -Winston Churchill
> ?The part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistic Jews ... is certainly a very great one; it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from Jewish leaders ... The same evil prominence was obtained by Jews in (Hungary and Germany, especially Bavaria).
> 
> Although in all these countries there are many non-Jews every whit as bad as the worst of the Jewish revolutionaries, the part played by the latter in proportion to their numbers in the population is astonishing. The fact that in many cases Jewish interests and Jewish places of worship are excepted by the Bolsheviks from their universal hostility has tended more and more to associate the Jewish race in Russia with the villainies which are now being perpetrated?. -Churchill
> ...



What has this to do with anything?  Yes Churchill was a racist fuck which most Brits don't even like.  But seriously this has nothing to do with anything right now oO


----------



## Mael (Nov 27, 2015)

Zyrax again with this gross stupidity.


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 27, 2015)

Nemesis said:


> What has this to do with anything?  Yes Churchill was a racist fuck which most Brits don't even like.  But seriously this has nothing to do with anything right now oO


Lewis used Churchill as an Example of why The UK should side with Al Assad and made a analogy of Stalin-Assad And Hitler-ISIS 
This proves that the British are just as ignorant about WW2 as Americans are 

First of all Stalin had the means to defeat Hitler unlike Assad who can't defeat ISIS even if the west armed him to teeth so due to the fact that he needs Sunni support which is impossible, the whole crisis can't be solved by Military Means but rather Political Means, Even if Russia Defeats ISIS assuming they don't economicly collpase before they do so, another Anti Assad Group would arrive

Second of all Churchill didn't support Stalin because he was "The lesser of Two Evils", He did it for the same Reason Why Croats sided with Hitler over their Serbian Brothers, He hated the Germans as seen in his quote about German Nationalism being the enemy, The reason is an Inferiority complex about who is the true "Leader of the Nordic Race" The Anglo Saxons or teutonics. He would rather side with "asitic Soviets" so that The English would be the only powerful Nordic Civilization. 

Third of all Russia isn't attacking ISIS, there is no ISIS in the area that Russia is bombing, So the Comparision To WW2 is stupid because Russia's Goal isn't to defeat ISIS but rather take out any other Oppositon group so that they could tell the west "See There is no Moderates", the Comparison would only make sense if Stalin attacked all Anti Nazi Groups in Europe before going after the Nazis , Stalin did the opposite, He let Norway and the Greeks free because they resisted and didn't collaborate with the Nazis 


Basicly Lewis is a retard


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Nov 27, 2015)

'Stalin had the means to defeat Hitler'

top kek

As is often with Russia, after the Krauts utterly destroyed them, the Ruskys retreated behind Moscow's walls and waited for winter to come.

Based Russia.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Nov 27, 2015)

MbS said:


> 'Stalin had the means to defeat Hitler'
> 
> top kek
> 
> ...



They were pretty much alone land wise and withstood the Germans for almost 3 years before Britain and company could land on the other side of Europe. Winter helped for sure, but they won the war of attrition.

But debating World War II would be  so let's just leave it as that.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Nov 27, 2015)

> *France ‘could work with Assad's forces’ against IS group*
> 
> *French foreign minister Laurent Fabius suggested Friday that troops loyal to Bashar al-Assad could be used to fight the Islamic State group, but only in the framework of a political transition without the Syrian President.*
> 
> ...



http://www.france24.com/en/20151127-fabius-syrian-forces-france-syria-coalition-islamic-state-group


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 27, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> Third of all Russia isn't attacking ISIS, there is no ISIS in the area that Russia is bombing,



Are you sure though?




> Sunday 4 October 2015
> 
> 1. Why has Russia moved now?
> 
> ...





> *Russian airstrikes blast ISIS oil facilities in Syria*
> 
> November 20, 2015, 2:41 PM
> 
> ...


----------



## Sferr (Nov 27, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> Third of all Russia isn't attacking ISIS, there is no ISIS in the area that Russia is bombing





Russia doesn't have just 2 planes in Syria. Them bombing other rebels doesn't mean they are not bombing ISIS as well. Anyone who says Russia doesn't is just reading some articles about Syrian war from time to time or watching only propaganda news about it and has no idea what's actually happening there.


----------



## N120 (Nov 27, 2015)

France, this is why you have no respect. If that proposal was serious then I really hope uk rejects Cameron's push for joint op, US continues watching from the sidelines uninterested and the Russians  in your face when you realise the handshake meant nothing, and the Turks stick up the  for being a snake.

Assad right now is relying on Russia/Iran to prop up its govt, and you think this weak regime should be part of a negotiated settlement? On what grounds and With who? The opposition that Russia is currently bombing and weakening as we speak? Or the ones you decide Russia should not bomb? And you talk of political settlements. Snakes.

Newsflash, not even gung Ho Russia is prepared to land troops in Syria, and bombing raqqah (which you've already done, and continue to advertise) won't achieve anything, except kill more innocent civilians.

Tears of the victims haven't even dried yet and your going out of your way to making more orphans and widows out of a desperate people because you lavish attention ppl are paying you. 

F off.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Nov 28, 2015)

I want to say crush all the terrorists! Leave none alive!

But this is reality. Real people are going to get killed.

I'm frankly sick of world powers doing nothing but fighting all the time. What happened to cooperating for economic progress? Nobody cares about their economy anymore!

I want capitalists to return and fascists to fuck off! The worst of the bunch are the terrorists! Despicable assholes!


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Nov 28, 2015)

I'm glad to see we consider to work with the Syrian forces even if it's something we should did before. But the solution in this crisis is not only military but also political.


----------



## Nemesis (Nov 28, 2015)

Alwaysmind said:


> They were pretty much alone land wise and withstood the Germans for almost 3 years before Britain and company could land on the other side of Europe. Winter helped for sure, but they won the war of attrition.



What do you think Britain was fighting in North Africa from 1939 onwards or the Luftwaffe was doing over Britain, or the naval battles?  Each of which putting numbers away from the East.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Nov 28, 2015)

Nemesis said:


> What do you think Britain was fighting in North Africa from 1939 onwards or the Luftwaffe was doing over Britain, or the naval battles?  Each of which putting numbers away from the East.



I was speaking about Europe in that coment. And as I have said, talking about World War II is


----------



## Alwaysmind (Nov 28, 2015)

Le M?le Absolu said:


> http://www.france24.com/en/20151127-fabius-syrian-forces-france-syria-coalition-islamic-state-group




Though I wonder how a "unity government" is suppised to happen in a civil war. Sounds like "we will help you but not really".



Le M?le Absolu said:


> I'm glad to see we consider to work with the Syrian forces even if it's something we should did before. But the solution in this crisis is not only military but also political.



Well the ignore Assad strategy has been less than flourishing. Politics has to play a role here too.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 28, 2015)

Alwaysmind said:


> Though I wonder how a "unity government" is suppised to happen in a civil war. Sounds like "we will help you but not really".



It can happen when the factions that are willing (or can be "persuaded") to prioritize an asap end of the war over their own goals are brought together and fight against those who can't be persuaded (IS, Al-Nusra, co.). The Kurds and Assad's forces have already proven cooperative with each other. So it's just a matter of getting whatever is left of the moderate rebels to join.

Though obviously for this to happen the US would have to give up on trying to throw Russia and Iran out of Syria (also by stopping to ignore Turkey's and the Gulf states' support of Jihadists groups) and join hands with them (Russia and Iran) instead. Though this would be the quickest and surest way to end the war, it would also piss off their Turkish, Gulf and Israeli allies, immensely.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Nov 28, 2015)

Alwaysmind said:


> Well the ignore Assad strategy has been less than flourishing. Politics has to play a role here too.



C'?tait une strat?gie de merde.  Surtout que derri?re on a rien ? proposer pour remplacer Assad. ?a aurait ?t? une Libye bis avec la destruction de l'?tat Syrien et rien sur quoi se baser pour g?rer le pays. C'est aga?ant ? admettre mais heureusement que les russes nous ont emp?ch? de faire une conneries la bas. 
Je suis satisfait de voir que notre gouvernement n'est pas but? dans son id?ologie au point de ne pas changer de strat?gie.  L'int?r?t sup?rieur de la France et des fran?ais doit pr?valoir sur tout le reste.  Si ?a ne pla?t pas aux Am?ricains ou aux autres,  tant pis.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Nov 28, 2015)

Le M?le Absolu said:


> C'?tait une strat?gie de merde.  Surtout que derri?re on a rien ? proposer pour remplacer Assad. ?a aurait ?t? une Libye bis avec la destruction de l'?tat Syrien et rien sur quoi se baser pour g?rer le pays. C'est aga?ant ? admettre mais heureusement que les russes nous ont emp?ch? de faire une conneries la bas.
> Je suis satisfait de voir que notre gouvernement n'est pas but? dans son id?ologie au point de ne pas changer de strat?gie.  L'int?r?t sup?rieur de la France et des fran?ais doit pr?valoir sur tout le reste.  Si ?a ne pla?t pas aux Am?ricains ou aux autres,  tant pis.



Bien dit.


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Nov 28, 2015)

Translation of LeMale’s post for those you don’t speak French: fuck everyone else, French interests come first at everyone's expense.

How atypicaly French.

America was attacked by terrorists. Britain was attacked. The Spanish were attacked. The French didn't stir.

But once France is attacked now everyone and his mom should fall over themselves coming to their aid.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Nov 28, 2015)

MbS said:


> Translation of LeMale’s post for those you don’t speak French: fuck everyone else, French interests come first at everyone's expense.
> 
> How atypicaly French.
> 
> ...



You took a phrase of my comment and present it out of context. Of course I expect my government to defend our interests first.  Be honest MbS,  you expect exactly the same thing from your own government and you'll be right for that. This is exactly what the US is doing. When the US decide an embargo on Iran,  they don't care about the consequences on our economies.  Same with Russia and the sanctions.  It's in line with US interests against our own.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Nov 28, 2015)

MbS said:


> Translation of LeMale?s post for those you don?t speak French: fuck everyone else, French interests come first at everyone's expense.
> 
> How atypicaly French.
> 
> ...




If it is atypical reaction, where is the problem?


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Nov 28, 2015)

France is blindly lashing out with no real plan for what comes next in Syria and the ME. There is no clear strategy to destroy IS or guarantee a better future for Syria.

Right now the agenda is strictly revenge. Dragging in other EU countries by invoking legislation into bombing Syria when there’s ample enough participants as it is with the US, Russia and France and others already competing in overcrowded air space is pointless.

Let’s be honest here, a few hundred British or German missiles would make no difference when 29,000 US bombs didn’t prevent the mass murder in Paris.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Nov 28, 2015)

Alwaysmind said:


> If it is atypical reaction, where is the problem?



C'est juste un pr?texte pour r?ler sur notre gueule.  Les am?ricains ont toujours d?fendu leurs int?r?ts et eux aussi ils ont raison de leur faire.  Si on veut ?liminer Daesh,  on ne peux pas se permettre le luxe de snober la Russie et faire l'erreur de d?truire l'?tat Syrien. Les Am?ricains sont dans une logique de d?sengagement de la r?gion.  Si cette nouvelle strat?gie ne pla?t pas aux am?ricains ou aux autres,  tant pis,  on travaillera ensemble dans la mesure du possible. Leur guerre en Irak nous avait pas plu ?galement et ils se sont pas g?ner pour la faire.


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Nov 28, 2015)

Is LeMale typing in French because his bad mouthing America will trigger Mael or something?


----------



## Alwaysmind (Nov 28, 2015)

MbS said:


> Is LeMale typing in French because his bad mouthing America will trigger Mael or something?



Or maybe he can better express his thoughts in French than in English, a simple question of avoiding to lose stuff in translation.

He is not badmouthing, simply arguing that if other western nations complain about France's current strategy of protecting its interests, they would be hypocrites.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Nov 28, 2015)

MbS said:


> France is blindly lashing out with no real plan for what comes next in Syria and the ME. There is no clear strategy to destroy IS or guarantee a better future for Syria.
> 
> Right now the agenda is strictly revenge. Dragging in other EU countries by invoking legislation into bombing Syria when there?s ample enough participants as it is with the US, Russia and France and others already competing in overcrowded air space is pointless.
> 
> Let?s be honest here, a few hundred British or German missiles would make no difference when 29,000 US bombs didn?t prevent the mass murder in Paris.



Of course a strategy focused only on bombing won't change.  However if it's coordinate with ground forces that include the Syrian forces,  we can destroy Daesh.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Nov 28, 2015)

MbS said:


> Is LeMale typing in French because his bad mouthing America will trigger Mael or something?



I answer to Alwaysmind in French because he/she is Qu?becois.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Nov 28, 2015)

Le M?le Absolu said:


> I answer to Alwaysmind in French because he/she is Qu?becois.



Il 

And MbS, that too.

Quel bordel cette situation.


----------



## Son of Goku (Nov 28, 2015)

MbS said:


> Let?s be honest here, a few hundred British or *German missiles* would make no difference when 29,000 US bombs didn?t prevent the mass murder in Paris.



German missiles? Not likely. So far all that is being is discussed is helping with reconnaissance.


----------



## Zyrax (Nov 28, 2015)

MbS said:


> Is LeMale typing in French because his bad mouthing America will trigger Mael or something?


I thought you were part french


----------



## Alwaysmind (Nov 28, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> I thought you were part french



Mostly Italian though, I think.


----------



## Kafuka de Vil (Nov 28, 2015)

Zyrax Pasha said:


> I thought you were part french



Oui?  I mean, yes.


----------



## Alwaysmind (Nov 28, 2015)

Time to see what Delahousse is saying.


----------



## N120 (Nov 28, 2015)

MbS said:


> France is blindly lashing out with no real plan for what comes next in Syria and the ME. There is no clear strategy to destroy IS or guarantee a better future for Syria.
> 
> Right now the agenda is strictly revenge. Dragging in other EU countries by invoking legislation into bombing Syria when there’s ample enough participants as it is with the US, Russia and France and others already competing in overcrowded air space is pointless.
> 
> Let’s be honest here, a few hundred British or German missiles would make no difference when 29,000 US bombs didn’t prevent the mass murder in Paris.



Exactly. 

Currently as we speak there are marches and demos ongoing in the UK against britian involving itself in the retaliatory bombing campaign, the public aren't convinced by these proposed course of actions and neither is parliament. No one yet has made a real case, or atleast the solutions they think will work is not what they are willing to pursue as of yet for various reasons.

It's as Mbs says, dressing up the wrong answer with French colours doesn't magically make it right. 

As for le males claims that France can defeat IS with cooperation, well, firstly you have to get people on your side first and you've failed to do that, and bombing innocent people isn't going to win you friends anywhere, and no one serious is about to let France lead them by the nose into a conflict that will backfire and escalate the conflict even further.

If France has a workable solution then it needs to present it, if not then it should concentrate on cleaning up the mess in its own backyard before preaching to others.


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Nov 28, 2015)

Son of Goku said:


> German missiles? Not likely. So far all that is being is discussed is helping with reconnaissance.



Well, it's still a support. Bombing work only with cooperation with the enemies of Deash on the ground. Germany will also be active on the political field, a less visible but very important part of victory against Daesh .


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## Matariki (Nov 30, 2015)

> *Erdogan Downed Su-24 to Revenge Son's Disrupted Oil Business*
> 
> Turkey shot down Russia's bomber as revenge for the destruction of oil smuggling business that belongs to Recep Tayyip Erdogan's son, a Syrian minister stated.
> 
> ...


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## Mider T (Nov 30, 2015)

Sputnik News huh?


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## Blue_Panter_Ninja (Nov 30, 2015)

Erdogan is getting crazier every day!!


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## Stelios (Dec 1, 2015)

I hope that I won't read in any confirmed source anything about Turkey blocking Russian ships at Bosporus. Already read some reports from not so confirmed sources... 
Shit will hit the fan.


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## Mael (Dec 1, 2015)

Blue_Panter_Ninja said:


> Erdogan is getting crazier every day!!



Only an idiot like you would actually believe Sputnik News.


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## Mael (Dec 1, 2015)

*Erdogan says would resign if Putin IS oil trade claims proven*



> Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Monday said he would be ready to quit office if allegations by Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin that Turkey traded oil with Islamic State (IS) jihadists were proven.
> 
> "I will say something very strong here. If such a thing is proven, the nobility of our nation would require that I would not stay in office," Erdogan was quoted by the state-run Anatolia news agency as saying on the sidelines of the UN climate talks near Paris, which Putin is also attending.
> 
> ...




 - Bызов принят?


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## Sansa (Dec 1, 2015)

Russia is adding another airbase in Syria

S-400 san is making it so that Turks can't even fly in the southern half of their own country

Sanctions are going to make them starve

Russia is allying with Kurds to push Turks out of Syria

R E M O V E K E B A B

E

M

O

V

E

K

E

B

A

B


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