# roger v. kaido



## trance (Jan 21, 2020)

roger at the time he met oden against kaido in his current form


----------



## Tornado (Jan 21, 2020)

> Your vote will be publicly visible.



ergh. in that case, Roger.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ruse (Jan 21, 2020)

Roger high diff


----------



## Gianfi (Jan 21, 2020)

Roger high(mid) diff


----------



## Corax (Jan 21, 2020)

Roger high diff.


----------



## Steven (Jan 21, 2020)

Roger high diff


----------



## Lyren (Jan 21, 2020)

Roger should be stronger by a tiny margin

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Bobybobster (Jan 21, 2020)

roger high high (mid) diff , don't think he needs high high (high) diff, or extreme low (low) idff


----------



## trance (Jan 21, 2020)

Bobybobster said:


> high high (mid) diff
> high high (high) diff
> extreme low (low) idff



this naming scheme tho


----------



## MrPopo (Jan 21, 2020)

Kaido's  relives his God Valley beating again


----------



## RossellaFiamingo (Jan 21, 2020)

Extreme diff either way. I give the 1v1 champ the nod

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Steven (Jan 21, 2020)

Rakuyo said:


> this naming scheme tho


99016 Posts


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 21, 2020)

Roger 10/10 times high (low-mid) diff

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Yuji (Jan 21, 2020)

world's strongest creature *> *not world's strongest creature

As of now it seems clear that Oda wants us to see Kaido as the strongest thing ever introduced in the story. Especially now that we've essentially seen how Roger became pirate king (which was through mainly luck not strength), there doesn't seem to be much of a reason to put him a level ahead of any of the yonko aside from Blackbeard.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## oiety (Jan 21, 2020)

Clownery. Roger wins all day every day 10/10 times. Roger high diffs, anymore than that is wank.


----------



## Zero (Jan 21, 2020)

Roger High Diff anything below is cap


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Jan 21, 2020)

Roger obviously wins...

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Draco Bolton (Jan 21, 2020)

Roger shit diff Oden.

Oden give Kaido his scar. 

Roger shit diff Kaido 20 years ago. And at worst high diff current Kaido.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Jan 21, 2020)

Yuji said:


> world's strongest creature *> *not world's strongest creature
> 
> As of now it seems clear that Oda wants us to see Kaido as the strongest thing ever introduced in the story. Especially now that we've essentially seen how Roger became pirate king (which was through mainly luck not strength), there doesn't seem to be much of a reason to put him a level ahead of any of the yonko aside from Blackbeard.



Except for the fact that prime Roger matched prime Whitebeard, while OLD, sick Whitebeard was still considered to be strong enough to be likened to Shanks, Kaido and Big Mom as part of the yonko.


----------



## RossellaFiamingo (Jan 21, 2020)

Vivo Diez said:


> Except for the fact that prime Roger matched prime Whitebeard, while OLD, sick Whitebeard was still considered to be strong enough to be likened to Shanks, Kaido and Big Mom as part of the yonko.


You don't lose the title of Yonko when you become weaker. Just like Sengoku didn't lose the title of FA until he decided to step down even though he was weaker than any of the C3.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Yuji (Jan 21, 2020)

Vivo Diez said:


> Except for the fact that prime Roger matched prime Whitebeard, while OLD, sick Whitebeard was still considered to be strong enough to be likened to Shanks, Kaido and Big Mom as part of the yonko.



_''1v1 bet on Kaido. Land,sea or air there is nothing stronger''
_
No amount of mental gymnastics can get you around this quote and obscure what Oda clearly wants everyone to believe. Unless you believe Oda is pulling some sort of prank and what he really means is **but only because Roger is dead* *but only because Whitebeard was old* *I can really see him saying that in the next few years...

The Yonko and Roger are relative equals, but Kaido has all the portrayal to make him the first among equals, especially now we've seen how Roger became pirate king.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Vivo Diez (Jan 21, 2020)

Yuji said:


> _''1v1 bet on Kaido. Land,sea or air there is nothing stronger''
> _
> No amount of mental gymnastics can get you around this quote and obscure what Oda clearly wants everyone to believe. Unless you believe Oda is pulling some sort of prank and what he really means is **but only because Roger is dead* *but only because Whitebeard was old* *I can really see him saying that in the next few years...
> 
> The Yonko and Roger are relative equals, but Kaido has all the portrayal to make him the first among equals, especially now we've seen how Roger became pirate king.


How is that a prank? Roger literally is dead and has been dead for decades now and Whitebeard was extremely sick and it was displayed a MULTITUDE of times that it was affecting his ability to fight. I believe that Kaido statement came after WB's death as well.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Dunno (Jan 21, 2020)

Roger wins with lower end of high diff.


----------



## Zoro20 (Jan 21, 2020)

Roger high diff  
kaidou is around oldbeard lvl


----------



## Zoro20 (Jan 21, 2020)

Roger was the strongest man to ever exist , its a fact.
 the only ones who were on the same level as him are Prime Garp and Prime whitebeard

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## RossellaFiamingo (Jan 21, 2020)

Zoro20 said:


> *Roger was the strongest man to ever exist ,* its a fact.
> the only ones who were on the same level as him are Prime Garp and Prime whitebeard


Where is this stated exactly? If I don't recall, Roger and his crew needed to team up with Garp and the Marines to bring down Xebec and his pre-prime crew members.


----------



## Zoro20 (Jan 21, 2020)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> Where is this stated exactly? If I don't recall, Roger and his crew needed to team up with Garp and the Marines to bring down Xebec and his pre-prime crew members.


he teamed up with garp to bring down xebec + whitebeard + kaidou + big mom +shiki 
they are stronger right now than 38 years ago  but still its an admirable feat 
and we have no idea how much string xebec was 

For Roger ,if we see how powerful Whitebeard (WSM)was in his sickness ,with heart attacks , and the fact that ROGER was at the same level as him in his PRIME  it gives you an idea about roger power .

ITS SIMPLE ROGER DIES AND HIS RIVAL WB BECOME THE STRONGEST MAN ALIVE  
PIRATE KING IS NOT JUST FINDING ONE PIECE ITS A MATTER OF POWER
BECAUSE LUFFY IS GONNA BECOME the strongest man to ever exist after roger


----------



## Vivo Diez (Jan 21, 2020)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> Where is this stated exactly? If I don't recall, Roger and his crew needed to team up with Garp and the Marines to bring down Xebec and his pre-prime crew members.


What a bizarre point. Roger and Garp are only a few years apart from Whitebeard who you lumped into the "pre-prime crew members".

Not to mention we don't even know how strong Xebec was, presumingly extremely strong to command such powerful pirates.

"Ye Roger isn't such a big deal, he had to team up with Garp to beat the most dangerous pirate in known history and possibly the most formidable pirate crew to exist in known pirate history."

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Pyriz (Jan 21, 2020)

I'm not sure, honestly. I may be in the minority, but I don't think prime Roger and WB were much stronger than current Yonko at all. I guess I'd give them the benefit of the doubt in a 1v1, but I think the difference in strength is very small. I'll say Roger, but I would not be surprised at all if Kaido won.


----------



## Furinji Saiga (Jan 21, 2020)

Both are top tiers, so the fight will be close. Roger takes it though around high-very high difficulty. 
I dont like using the term "PK Tier" as if it is its own distinction, but I see Roger and Prime WB/Prime Garp as basically at the top of the strongest characters in this manga when matched up against other top tiers( Admirals/Yonko) so I would always give those three the edge over the others.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## GreenBull956 (Jan 21, 2020)

Roger High Diff . Oden vs Kaidou could change the difficulty though


----------



## GreenBull956 (Jan 21, 2020)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> Extreme diff either way. I give the 1v1 champ the nod


I bet you'd give Big Mom the nod as well since you rate her higher than Kaido , there is just no end to your BM wank

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## neonlight (Jan 22, 2020)

Kaido takes this. New gen is always stronger than old gen. Kaido is top of the cream in current gen. Roger goes down but not before giving fatal wounds to Kaido.


----------



## Steven (Jan 22, 2020)

PK>Not PK.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## FakeTaxi1738 (Jan 22, 2020)

Roger high diffs Kaido , no debate

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Dellinger (Jan 22, 2020)

Roger extreme diff

You have to be stupid to think that Roger high diffs Kaido.


----------



## Gledania (Jan 22, 2020)

Roger win this ... Can't believe Oda gave a *huge bounty* to someone like WB , that was still above kaido while getting old and being way more peaceful than him and big mom, and people with their huge denial will still rationalize that Big mom and kaido can beat him and Roger (lol it's just bounty right ? It's not like the WG saw them as stronger than the 2 others...) . I mean Oda singled their bounties in chap 957 as the legends of their time and yet big mom (who was of the same era with WB) and kaido (his equal) are still viewed by many here at the same strength with them ?  Like Oda was not clear enough that this two were above everyone else in the pirate world ???

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## charles101 (Jan 22, 2020)

Prime Roger vs Prime Kaido? .-.

Oh come on.


----------



## CaptainCommander (Jan 22, 2020)

I guess Roger since my vote for Kaido was deleted.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 23, 2020)

Funny how Kaido been 8ntroduced that way only after the real monsters died and the strongest of the previous generations are all old farts by now.


----------



## Beast (Jan 23, 2020)

I mean... there people that voted for Rayleigh over Garp, so why would this be unbelievable? 

At least I can see who the 4 non OP readers are now. 

Roger mid/ high diff

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Kylo Ren (Jan 23, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> I mean... there people that voted for Rayleigh over Garp, so why would this be unbelievable?
> 
> At least I can see who the 4 non OP readers are now.
> 
> Roger mid/ high diff


How do you know? Drop their name please I only know rosella


----------



## Beast (Jan 23, 2020)

Kylo Ren said:


> How do you know? Drop their name please I only know rosella


ive never snitched before but here goes nothing. 
Yuji... NeonLight and the crazy fool Jo Ndule.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## KBD (Jan 23, 2020)

F*CK EVERYTHING!!!

Kaido beats anyone 1v1 the narrator told me so.. Kaido extreme diff

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Dunno (Jan 23, 2020)

KBD said:


> F*CK EVERYTHING!!!
> 
> Kaido beats anyone 1v1 the narrator told me so.. Kaido extreme diff


The narrator told you that people say that Kaido beats everyone 1v1. There is a significant difference. This is also prime Roger, who is quite a lot stronger than current Roger.


----------



## Canute87 (Jan 23, 2020)

Is this current Kaidou or Pre Oden Kaidou?



Dunno said:


> The narrator told you that people say that Kaido beats everyone 1v1. There is a significant difference. This is also *prime Roger,* who is quite a lot stronger than *current Roger.*

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## A Optimistic (Jan 23, 2020)

Roger mid difficultly.

Roger and Prime Whitebeard are on a different league compared to every other character in the series.


----------



## Canute87 (Jan 23, 2020)

A Optimistic said:


> Roger mid difficultly.
> 
> Roger and Prime Whitebeard are on a different league compared to every other character in the series.



Just so you know that optimistic was given with respect because it matches your avatar name.


----------



## Nox (Jan 23, 2020)

How about Kaido surpasses (or is confirmed to be have surpassed) a fresh Old WB before we pair him against healthy in prime WB. Which is where Roger is classified.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Canute87 (Jan 23, 2020)

Astro said:


> How about Kaido surpasses (or is confirmed to be have surpassed) a fresh Old WB before we pair him against healthy in prime WB. Which is where Roger is classified.



Old Whitebeard is synonymous with his sickness.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Nox (Jan 23, 2020)

Kaido is the *CURRENT* best 1v1 combatant and World Strongest Creature. An introduction and title that is given/solidified in the absence of Roger and WB. Infact when WB was alive his primary detonating epithet was simply that of Hundred Beast/King of the Beasts. In the time in which Old WB is alive and Kaido exists. He is classified as 1. The World Strongest Man 2. The Strongest Pirate 3. The man Closest to One Piece. How moronic then is it to claim Kaido's introduction professes him to be the supreme most being. When said titles preclude the same level of absolution that can be seen with his previous World Strongest Yonko contemporary?? An Emperor is the title obtained by those who fail to rise to the level beyond - Pirate King. 









Canute87 said:


> Old Whitebeard is synonymous with his sickness.



I guess this is true, since we never get to witness him fight extensively outside MF. Splitting the clouds is cool and all but like I always say, the clouds don't hit back. However, the reason I always make that distinction is because. We have character statements of people praising Old WB - as seperate from him in his prime. People always want to undermine this and claim. People hyped WB since he was resting on the laurels of his glory days. When this isn't the case. All Emperors even know who their DADDY was.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Imagine (Jan 23, 2020)

A Optimistic said:


> Roger mid difficultly.
> 
> Roger and Prime Whitebeard are on a different league compared to every other character in the series.





Canute87 said:


> Just so you know that optimistic was given with respect because it matches your avatar name.


Mine was not.


----------



## Canute87 (Jan 23, 2020)

Astro said:


> Kaido is the *CURRENT* best 1v1 combatant and World Strongest Creature. An introduction and title that is given/solidified in the absence of Roger and WB. Infact when WB was alive his primary detonating epithet was simply that of Hundred Beast/King of the Beasts. In the time in which Old WB is alive and Kaido exists. He is classified as 1. The World Strongest Man 2. The Strongest Pirate 3. The man Closest to One Piece. How moronic then is it to claim Kaido's introduction professes him to be the supreme most being. When said titles preclude the same level of absolution that can be seen with his previous World Strongest Yonko contemporary?? An Emperor is the title obtained by those who fail to rise to the level beyond - Pirate King.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just like how people called Roger the pirate King likewise was Whitebeard's title. The perception of what he WAS in his prime (And rightly so when we saw the shit he could do).

But buggy was speaking from nostalgia, the realty of his sickness came to light as the series went on  BB lost respect for Whitebeard,
Crocodile said he wasn't that weak when he fucked him over , (not to say crocodile is worth much anybody but his words are evident of the disbelief, Even Kizaru had his comments to make how the mighty have fallen.

Nobody knew how far WB had truly deteriorated from what he used to be all of those knew the *legacy* he left and that went with him until marineford. 

Kaidou and Big Mom will never  surpass WB's legacy,

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## MYJC (Jan 23, 2020)

Roger extreme diff, and only if it's healthy Roger. 

I don't think anybody beats a Yonko with less than extreme.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Fujitora (Jan 23, 2020)

oiety said:


> Clownery. Roger wins all day every day 10/10 times. Roger high diffs, anymore than that is wank.


Extreme diff for me but roger wins ofc, kinda like luffy vs kat



MasterBeast said:


> I mean... there people that voted for Rayleigh over Garp, so why would this be unbelievable?
> 
> At least I can see who the 4 non OP readers are now.
> 
> Roger mid/ high diff


Did you just say roger miss diffs another top tier? Where did we get this info from? Oh wait it’s just wishful thinking from you guys. Roger and wb were at the top but I believe they weren’t super far off from the rest. It’s extreme diff for roger ofc, anything less is disrespectful.


----------



## Beast (Jan 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Did you just say roger miss diffs another top tier? Where did we get this info from? Oh wait it’s just wishful thinking from you guys. Roger and wb were at the top but I believe they weren’t super far off from the rest. It’s extreme diff for roger ofc, anything less is disrespectful.


lower end of high diff.... big target easier kill. Roger isn’t Oden, he would cut through the WHOLE dragon.


----------



## Seraphoenix (Jan 24, 2020)

Astro said:


> Kaido is the *CURRENT* best 1v1 combatant and World Strongest Creature. An introduction and title that is given/solidified in the absence of Roger and WB. Infact when WB was alive his primary detonating epithet was simply that of Hundred Beast/King of the Beasts. In the time in which Old WB is alive and Kaido exists. He is classified as 1. The World Strongest Man 2. The Strongest Pirate 3. The man Closest to One Piece. How moronic then is it to claim Kaido's introduction professes him to be the supreme most being. When said titles preclude the same level of absolution that can be seen with his previous World Strongest Yonko contemporary?? An Emperor is the title obtained by those who fail to rise to the level beyond - Pirate King.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well it depends on if you take the Ace novels seriously. There it's set in the time WB was alive and says he is strongest from the way he lived and that Kaido was 1v1 champ. 

Also there was praise for healthy old WB not the one at MF. At MF we had Crocodile, Akainu, Marco and WB himself commenting on how far his health had deteriorated his combat ability.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Red Admiral (Jan 24, 2020)

Roger . all day every day



Astro said:


> Kaido is the *CURRENT* best 1v1 combatant and World Strongest Creature. An introduction and title that is given/solidified in the absence of Roger and WB. Infact when WB was alive his primary detonating epithet was simply that of Hundred Beast/King of the Beasts. In the time in which Old WB is alive and Kaido exists. He is classified as 1. The World Strongest Man 2. The Strongest Pirate 3. The man Closest to One Piece. How moronic then is it to claim Kaido's introduction professes him to be the supreme most being. When said titles preclude the same level of absolution that can be seen with his previous World Strongest Yonko contemporary?? An Emperor is the title obtained by those who fail to rise to the level beyond - Pirate King.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



well I agree with your point

but base on Ace Novel II ... that been called and seem to be canon (approved by Oda)

Kaido was known to be strongest in One Vs One AT LEAST since 5 years ago

but in the end ... titles and "known to be" is not end game


----------



## Beast (Jan 24, 2020)

Strongest pirate and strongest creature can’t be two different people, if the creature is also a pirate.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 24, 2020)

WSM and WSP > WSC


----------



## Mob (Jan 24, 2020)

Always bet on Kaido fairy tales remind me of ignorant masses from DB where they hail mr. Satan as the goat martial artist


----------



## Steven (Jan 24, 2020)

Mob said:


> Always bet on Kaido fairy tales remind me of ignorant masses from DB where they hail mr. Satan as the goat martial artist


Mr Popo>Mr Satan


----------



## CaptainCommander (Jan 24, 2020)

I take what the people of One Piece say over what the people on here say any day.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Mob (Jan 24, 2020)

Acno said:


> Mr Popo>Mr Satan



Mr. Satan is widely known all over the world as the strongest man alive and a celebrity hero. Popo is a man hence Satan>Popo


----------



## Steven (Jan 24, 2020)

Mob said:


> Mr. Satan is widely known all over the world as the strongest man alive and a celebrity hero. *Popo is a man* hence Satan>Popo


Is Popo even a human?


----------



## Blanco (Jan 25, 2020)

roger has that old guy strength, he wins


----------



## bil02 (Jan 25, 2020)

Roger was an equal to wb 24 years ago before his death but wb grew stronger for sometime again thus achieving world strongest man status before starting declining due to old age.It is also worth mentioning roger was older than wb so wb still had potential to be stronger when he reached roger's age.
We know wb was the most veteran member of the yonkou and kaido is an emperor for much longer than shanks,so likely at least a decade iindicating kaido is on the same general level as an old healthy wb who should at the very least be equal to the roger who died 24 years ago.
Wb having died for 2 years now,kaido could've grown stronger over that time and could very well be equal to an old healthy wb who is likely >= roger. That being said,it doesn't sound ridiculous to me if current kaido is at least on roger level,same with big mom.
The main reason for people saying roger is stronger than kaido is based on his wb equivalence 24 years ago, but forgetting wb likely grew stronger after Roger's death.
The wb known as the world strongest man(age 55-68) is probably quite a bit above roger

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## trance (Jan 25, 2020)

bil02 said:


> The wb known as the world strongest man(age 55-68) is probably quite a bit above roger



this is headcanon

wb became the wsm before roger died not after and nothing indicates he grew after roger died 

and youre wrong; the main reason people believe roger > kaido is cuz a weaker version of wb was peer to kaido, even indicated to still be superior


----------



## trance (Jan 25, 2020)

yea

"probably" and "likely" are just assumptions

still waiting for someone to give a valid reason why kaido is > roger


----------



## Amol (Jan 25, 2020)

Well now I know which six people I need to ignore. 
It is like they have never read shonen. Luffy's goal is to surpass Roger not Kaido. Because it is shonen naturally that means it is tied to strength. 
Roger and Kaido can have 1000 matches and motherfucking Pirate King will always win with high diff. 
I actually can't believe there exist someone who is retarded enough to use 'always bet 1 vs 1' line on dead characters. If Kaido was capable of beating Roger world would have called him WSM not Primebeard. Primebeard is literally considered world's strongest because he was equal of Roger. Ergo Roger was considered epitome of strength. That is fucking common sense. The sheer amount of stupidity in this thread is astounding. 
This Kaido bubble will burst soon. By the time of Final War we will witness a power creep(where EoS Luffy and BB will fight) and everybody will forget Kaido like he was nobody. Not much different than what happened to DD. Everybody was so convinced of his strength in Punk Hazard that idea of him being fodder was considered a stupid opinion. Now that is a reality. I don't think Kaido will end up a fodder but he sure won't look that impressive next to what EoS fighters would show. That would be PK level strength. Always bet on shonen power creep. Roger would retroactively benefit from it.


----------



## trance (Jan 25, 2020)

A Optimistic said:


> Roger mid difficultly


----------



## Amol (Jan 25, 2020)

World considered Primebeard World's Strongest after the death of Roger. Oda gave us reason for that. 
Primebeard got that title because he was equal to Roger. 
It is only because of Roger, Primebeard is considered WSM(and Kaido was alive Pirate then and he didn't fucking get the title).
So Strength has always been part of who Roger is. Sheer stupid headcanons here doesn't change that fact.


----------



## bil02 (Jan 25, 2020)

Rakuyo said:


> this is headcanon
> 
> wb became the wsm before roger died not after and nothing indicates he grew after roger died
> 
> and youre wrong; the main reason people believe roger > kaido is cuz a weaker version of wb was peer to kaido, even indicated to still be superior


So roger was 5 years older than wb when he died 20 years ago and then after roger died,wb didn't get any stronger? Even though he was 5 years younger than roger?
Roger died at 55 when wb was 50,yet wb didn't get any stronger from 50 to 55? Nothing indicates wb had reached his peak at 50 and wouldn't grow,instead logic tells us he surely got stronger from 50 to 60 years. 
About wb being strongest man before Roger's death,when was this shown apart from data book? In manga,he was called great pirate edward newgate not wsm.
We even had people saying wb at 44 wasn't in his prime because oden a wano insider,was matching him yet the same wb with oden on his ship shocked oden with his power when he clashed with roger.
Saying the reason people have roger>kaido is because old wb is a peer to preskip kaido or even above him is funny because wb's feats at marineford show he is inferior to a healthy yonkou like kaido.
Wb's old and healthy self is likely at the very least on roger level if not stronger so kaido being his peer is even good portrayal in kaido's favor.
We have wb from 50 to 60> wb 24 years ago=roger~kaido~old healthy wb>=big mom


----------



## bil02 (Jan 25, 2020)

Rakuyo said:


> yea
> 
> "probably" and "likely" are just assumptions
> 
> still waiting for someone to give a valid reason why kaido is > roger


Wb got stronger after Roger's death and that's when kaido and big mom became his emperor rivals.
We know wb was stronger than them at the time and didn't want to be pk but he wasn't in a completely different level from them.
So that wb is stronger than roger,big mom and kaido.
So we have old wb>roger=kaido still growing at the very least.
After growing for many more years,kaido should now at the very least be
 stronger than roger was.
Edit:if someone states in the manga in the future that current kaido is weaker than roger was,then i would gladly change my mind but i don't just like the roger overhype when we don't even know how he compares to 60 year old wb who was a peer to kaido and big mom.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 25, 2020)

Prime Roger Low Diffs Kaidou
Sick Roger Mid Diffs Kaidou

This is because Prime Roger > Sick Roger >= Prime WB > Old/Sick WB >= Kaidou

This is a conservative estimate of Roger by the way.


----------



## bil02 (Jan 25, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Prime Roger Low Diffs Kaidou
> Sick Roger Mid Diffs Kaidou
> 
> This is because Prime Roger > Sick Roger >= Prime WB > Old/Sick WB >= Kaidou
> ...


So you beleive sick roger is >= prime wb? And that wb didn't get any stronger from age 50(when roger died) to age 55(age roger had when he died)?
So the only purpose of wb was to be at best equal to roger and when roger died,wb never grew to be stronger than roger was? Even though he still had potential to be stronger at age 55(which is the age at which roger died)?


----------



## Turrin (Jan 25, 2020)

bil02 said:


> So you beleive sick roger is >= prime wb? And that wb didn't get any stronger from age 50(when roger died) to age 55(age roger had when he died)?
> So the only purpose of wb was to be at best equal to roger and when roger died,wb never grew to be stronger than roger was? Even though he still had potential to be stronger at age 55(which is the age at which roger died)?


Yeah if Roger was able to match WB when he was Sick he was obviously better then WB in his Prime.

And yeah I don’t think WB would have improved. He had no reason too; after Roger died WB had no rivals on the sea to push him to greater heights; and WB goal was to build his family rather then looking to continue his adventure and seek One Piece, so that would have even further removed him from coming into conflict with anyone or seeking greater heights. Also when Prime WB is hyped up he is stated to be comparable to the Roger he was a Rival with (which we saw was Sick Roger); not having surpassed Roger or having another stronger enemy then Roger. WB last greatest fight was likely with Roger in Oden Flashback


----------



## trance (Jan 25, 2020)

bil02 said:


> So roger was 5 years older than wb when he died 20 years ago and then after roger died,wb didn't get any stronger? Even though he was 5 years younger than roger?



he was only 3 years older than wb



> Roger died at 55 when wb was 50,yet wb didn't get any stronger from 50 to 55?



why would he? _nothing _indicates he did

feel free to cite or post anything that says otherwise



> Nothing indicates wb had reached his peak at 50 and wouldn't grow,instead logic tells us he surely got stronger from 50 to 60 years.



what logic? youre grasping mate



> About wb being strongest man before Roger's death,when was this shown apart from data book? In manga,he was called great pirate edward newgate not wsm.



yea the vivre card



> We even had people saying wb at 44 wasn't in his prime because oden a wano insider,was matching him yet the same wb with oden on his ship shocked oden with his power when he clashed with roger.



yea wb was sandbagging

that much was obvious

no one ever seriously believed oden was any match for wb even back then



> Saying the reason people have roger>kaido is because old wb is a peer to preskip kaido or even above him is funny because wb's feats at marineford show he is inferior to a healthy yonkou like kaido



your opinion that his feats are inferior =/= his feats actually being inferior

and even if they are inferior, kaido being > old wb doesnt mean he scales to prime wb who roger is equal to



> Wb's old and healthy self is likely at the very least on roger level if not stronger so kaido being his peer is even good portrayal in kaido's favor.





an old, sick version of wb isnt "at least" as strong as roger or even stronger

he loses every single time

this is some desperate reaching



> We have wb from 50 to 60> wb 24 years ago=roger~kaido~old healthy wb>=big mom



nah

like i said, feel free to cite or post anything that says anything about wb growing after roger's death


----------



## trance (Jan 25, 2020)

>roger low diffing kaido



ok thats enough opbd for me

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## bil02 (Jan 25, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yeah if Roger was able to match WB when he was Sick he was obviously better then WB in his Prime


What age is prime wb? Also wb didn't use his gura gura on panel against roger so he wasn't going all out so saying sick roger>=prime wb hasn't been proven


Turrin said:


> And yeah I don’t think WB would have improved. He had no reason too; after Roger died WB had no rivals on the sea to push him to greater heights; and WB goal was to build his family rather then looking to continue his adventure and seek One Piece, so that would have even further removed him from coming into conflict with anyone or seeking greater heights. Also when Prime WB is hyped up he is stated to be comparable to the Roger he was a Rival with (which we saw was Sick Roger); not having surpassed Roger or having another stronger enemy then Roger. WB last greatest fight was likely with Roger in Oden Flashback


The great pirate age started though and wb had to defend himself from many younger and ambitoned pirates so he couldn't really afford to lose focus on his family.One achieves or maintains true power when they have to protect those who are close him,in this case wb's family so he had to get stronger.
Also,roger and wb fought each other only twice though,ie during god valley and when roger recruited oden.So according to your logic,wb shouldn't be that strong because he only fought roger during god valley and the 2nd time was perfectly matching roger so by potential logic,wb should have grown stronger again.
Wb was compared to roger by buggy and outsiders of the wb pirate crew who don't really know how much strong wb may have gotten but the Wb pirates never compared him to roger strengthwise so i don't really give that much weight.


----------



## bil02 (Jan 25, 2020)

Rakuyo said:


> he was only 3 years older than wb


Yet wb and roger werw equals right? So it only stands to reason that a 3 years older wb would be stronger than a roger of the same age as 3 years earlier,they were equals.And after that,the great pirate age started where wb had to protect his crew from many uprising pirates and other ambitioned pirates like kaido and big mom.


Rakuyo said:


> and even if they are inferior, kaido being > old wb doesnt mean he scales to prime wb who roger is equal to


Prime isn't the same as peak so roger=prime wb doesn't mean wb couldn't have gotten stronger.


Rakuyo said:


> an old, sick version of wb isnt "at least" as strong as roger or even stronger
> 
> he loses every single time
> 
> this is some desperate reaching


Lol i never talked abouy old sick but just old wb(after 60) so this is old healthy wb.


Rakuyo said:


> nah
> 
> like i said, feel free to cite or post anything that says anything about wb growing after roger's death


I can't as there is no such statement.
But i beleive wb at roger's death age is stronger than the wb roger was fighting which is just logical as characters grow with age when they are under 60 years old.And with that scaling,i see current kaido being at the very least being equal to roger at his death.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 25, 2020)

bil02 said:


> What age is prime wb? Also wb didn't use his gura gura on panel against roger so he wasn't going all out so saying sick roger>=prime wb hasn't been proven
> 
> The great pirate age started though and wb had to defend himself from many younger and ambitoned pirates so he couldn't really afford to lose focus on his family.One achieves or maintains true power when they have to protect those who are close him,in this case wb's family so he had to get stronger.
> Also,roger and wb fought each other only twice though,ie during god valley and when roger recruited oden.So according to your logic,wb shouldn't be that strong because he only fought roger during god valley and the 2nd time was perfectly matching roger so by potential logic,wb should have grown stronger again.
> Wb was compared to roger by buggy and outsiders of the wb pirate crew who don't really know how much strong wb may have gotten but the Wb pirates never compared him to roger strengthwise so i don't really give that much weight.


1. The fight was mostly off panel; can you prove he didn’t use his Gura Fruit off Panel?

2. No one in the Great pirating age was a match for Prime WB, so there was no one he would need to become stronger to defend against.

WB got stronger until Rogers death; after that their was no one else to challenge him and push him to greater heights.

Then point is that the strongest person WB was compared to is a Sick Roger; there isn’t anyone else WB is compared to beyond Roger where we could scale WB higher.


----------



## bil02 (Jan 25, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. The fight was mostly off panel; can you prove he didn’t use his Gura Fruit off Panel?


No i can't but from what we know of gura,if wb used even 1 serious gura move,then that island would've sank way before their 3 days battle.


Turrin said:


> 2. No one in the Great pirating age was a match for Prime WB, so there was no one he would need to become stronger to defend against


Firstly,prime wb=/=peak wb.
2ndly,wb needed at the very least to stay focused on big mom and kaido(and all the other great pirates who were said will become powers of the new generation 33 years ago) who could've attacked him from both sides and if that happened,wb would be finished prime or not.SO WB needed to be strong enough to protect his crew from the rising dangers and needed to get stronger for that.
As for prime wb not having any worthy rival to become stronger after Roger's death,you need to understand that wb wasn't as strong as roger because of their rivalry.Wb fought roger twice with many years interval seperating their 2 battles so wb's strength is due to his own adventures not his rivalry with roger.And we know that the chances of getting stronger during great pirate age are much higher as the threats are much more many.


Turrin said:


> WB got stronger until Rogers death; after that their was no one else to challenge him and push him to greater heights


I've addressed this above:wb's strength isn't from his rivalry with roger but from his own adventures with his crew.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 25, 2020)

bil02 said:


> No i can't but from what we know of gura,if wb used even 1 serious gura move,then that island would've sank way before their 3 days battle.
> 
> Firstly,prime wb=/=peak wb.
> 2ndly,wb needed at the very least to stay focused on big mom and kaido(and all the other great pirates who were said will become powers of the new generation 33 years ago) who could've attacked him from both sides and if that happened,wb would be finished prime or not.SO WB needed to be strong enough to protect his crew from the rising dangers and needed to get stronger for that.
> ...


1. Unless Roger has the ability to counter the Gura Fruit which he obviously does if he matched WB 

2. WB was already stronger then Big Mom and Kaidou; so staying focused or even fighting one of them off wouldn’t require him to get stronger 

3. I agree characters can also become stronger due to their own adventures, but WB adventured reached its end; he didn’t want to continue to go after One Piece or master the ocean; and he didn’t have anyone who was his equal outside of Roger


----------



## bil02 (Jan 25, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. Unless Roger has the ability to counter the Gura Fruit which he obviously does if he matched wb


So all of those guys went all out on that island and the island was still in one piece? Or they kept countering each other for 3 days so that the island didn't sink? The fight wasn't a serious one as indicated by the viz version of that chapter with rayleigh saying they attempted to pillage each other so wb didn't use his world ending fruit power to its max there.


Turrin said:


> 2. WB was already stronger then Big Mom and Kaidou; so staying focused or even fighting one of them off wouldn’t require him to get stronger


Yes but wb wasn't so much stronger than them that he could defeat them if they attacked him at the same time,wb can't defeat bigmom,kaido,shiki and captain john attacking him at the same time so they were still a threat.


Turrin said:


> 3. I agree characters can also become stronger due to their own adventures, but WB adventured reached its end; he didn’t want to continue to go after One Piece or master the ocean; and he didn’t have anyone who was his equal outside of Roger


Wb never wanted to go after the one piece and before roger becoming pk,he didn't even know that thing existed.
He always wanted to have a family and protecting them has always been the source of his power not roger,so it is only logical wb would want to get stronger after Roger's death to better protect his family against these new crazy uprising pirates who would do everything to topple him down.
The great age of piracy after Roger's death is just the same as what happened during the 2 years after marineford,everybody is building their strength and want to break the balance to be the next pk and wb lived through that(thus becoming logically stronger).
We saw that after marineford,everybody became much stronger,that's the same with the great pirate age.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 25, 2020)

bil02 said:


> So all of those guys went all out on that island and the island was still in one piece? Or they kept countering each other for 3 days so that the island didn't sink? The fight wasn't a serious one as indicated by the viz version of that chapter with rayleigh saying they attempted to pillage each other so wb didn't use his world ending fruit power to its max there.
> 
> Yes but wb wasn't so much stronger than them that he could defeat them if they attacked him at the same time,wb can't defeat bigmom,kaido,shiki and captain john attacking him at the same time so they were still a threat.
> 
> ...


1. Even if they didn’t go all out, they still fought equally and Roger expected both of them to die in an all out fight; and Buggy said they were rivals in strength. Everything we can go on indicates Sick Roger and WB were equals back then. Otherwise can you give me any indication of WB being superior?

2. Their is no indication that the two ever formed an alliance like that previously where WB would need to face both at the same time. 

3. Again there is no need for him to get stronger to protect his family; he’s already the WSM and no one can measure up to him. That’s why I keep saying after Roger died WB had no reason to get stronger. 

Otherwise can you show me any evidence that he did get stronger? Cause if you it it’s just your belief we will have to agree to disagree


----------



## RossellaFiamingo (Jan 25, 2020)

my face right now reading about Some one who truly believes anyone could low diff LinLin or Kaido


----------



## bil02 (Jan 25, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. Even if they didn’t go all out, they still fought equally and Roger expected both of them to die in an all out fight; and Buggy said they were rivals in strength. Everything we can go on indicates Sick Roger and WB were equals back then. Otherwise can you give me any indication of WB being superior?


That's Roger's beleif they would would both die in battle and buggy statement came from this one and only fight where nobody went all out so buggy comparing wb at marineford to roger is based on his perception of a non serious fight.
I never said the wb who clashed with roger is superior but that the healthy wb who lived through the great age of piracy is.


Turrin said:


> 2. Their is no indication that the two ever formed an alliance like that previously where WB would need to face both at the same time.


Yes but one attacking wb crew and weakening them while another one profits from this and attacks wb isn't good to wb and that's where he needed to be stronger.Even with no drive to become stronger,leaving in such an age for pirates forces you get stronger.If a wb who just wanted to have a family got much stronger to the point he could rival roger,then what stops wb from getting much stronger after Roger's death when he was already having such growth potential rivaling roger without even fighting roger frequently? 


Turrin said:


> 3. Again there is no need for him to get stronger to protect his family; he’s already the WSM and no one can measure up to him. That’s why I keep saying after Roger died WB had no reason to get stronger[/QUOro
> No one meauring to wb doesn't mean he is invincible though,and if one top tier weakened him,the next could've finished him and his crew.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Turrin (Jan 25, 2020)

bil02 said:


> That's Roger's beleif they would would both die in battle and buggy statement came from this one and only fight where nobody went all out so buggy comparing wb at marineford to roger is based on his perception of a non serious fight.
> I never said the wb who clashed with roger is superior but that the healthy wb who lived through the great age of piracy is.
> 
> Yes but one attacking wb crew and weakening them while another one profits from this and attacks wb isn't good to wb and that's where he needed to be stronger.Even with no drive to become stronger,leaving in such an age for pirates forces you get stronger.If a wb who just wanted to have a family got much stronger to the point he could rival roger,then what stops wb from getting much stronger after Roger's death when he was already having such growth potential rivaling roger without even fighting roger frequently?


1. So proof he is superior; when the highest we can scale him to from statements and showings is Sick Roger. Like what showing or statements place him above Sick Roger?

2. The whole reason the Yonko deadlock exists is that they wouldn’t do that. Big Mom isn’t going to attack WB knowing she’s going to get whiped out, to give Kaidou a chance to attack WB afterwards.


----------



## bil02 (Jan 25, 2020)

Turrin said:


> . So proof he is superior; when the highest we can scale him to from statements and showings is Sick Roger. Like what showing or statements place him above Sick Roger?


The fact you become stronger by living in a tougher age? Reaching the top is good but true greatness is when you maintain that status and that's what wb did.
Why wouldn't he become stronger when his enemies are getting stronger and larger in numbers when he was already rivaling roger just by living his own adventures in a weaker age of pirates?


Turrin said:


> 2. The whole reason the Yonko deadlock exists is that they wouldn’t do that. Big Mom isn’t going to attack WB knowing she’s going to get whiped out, to give Kaidou a chance to attack WB afterwards.


Kaidou is one crazy dude and doesn't really care about those things and if he had attacked wb weakening him,other top tiers could've finished wb thus him needing to get stronger.
Please let's just agree to disagree,i'm already tired of repeating the same things over and over again.


----------



## ho11ow (Jan 25, 2020)

Yonko lvl clashes only make cloud spilt.
WSM clash with PK blast cloud away. 
So.. yeah Roger should be win


----------



## bil02 (Jan 25, 2020)

Roger~kaido so extreme diff either way but i give the benefit of the doubt to the 1vs 1 champion

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Sherlōck (Jan 25, 2020)

Roger mid diffs Kaido.


----------



## Steven (Jan 25, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> Roger mid diffs Kaido.


High-diff*


----------



## Nox (Jan 26, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> Well it depends on if you take the Ace novels seriously. There it's set in the time WB was alive and says he is strongest from the way he lived and that Kaido was 1v1 champ.
> 
> Also there was praise for healthy old WB not the one at MF. At MF we had Crocodile, Akainu, Marco and WB himself commenting on how far his health had deteriorated his combat ability.



No I dont. Anything which distorts in canon statements from multiple characters from a source that isnt Oda I dismiss. Until a time in which the manga corroborates it. This series is littered with non-canon Databooks, Filler and Movies overseen by Oda =/= he published them. Second I have made it extemely clear the distinction is for healthy Old WB. Healthy in the sense he doesnt have the injuries from debilitations of MF rather simply afflicted by disease. It is this Old WB who time and again has been called a monster and it was he who stood unquestioned at the top. To just about everyone who knew him.



Red Admiral said:


> Roger . all day every day
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The databook which said Sabo is dead and Luffy = Zoro was approved by Oda. Strong World was approved by Oda and states Shiki rivalled Roger. Yet what we see in the manga dispels this notions. At least 2 years ago Garp, Akainu, Sengoku, Shanks called WB King. So someone is lying.


----------



## Sherlōck (Jan 26, 2020)

Astro said:


> Yet what we see in the manga dispels this notions. At least 2 years ago Garp, Akainu, Sengoku, Shanks called WB King. So someone is lying.



Everyone is except Akainu who spoke the truth .

WB was a loser.


----------



## stealthblack (Jan 26, 2020)

People will see once luffy beats kaidou that he is barely mid high diff for roger. same way they used to think katakuri is top tier yet he is high tier once luffy beat him.

roger blasted away strongest samurai swordman oden like he was a fly, kaidou got his only scar from oden.


----------



## Red Admiral (Jan 26, 2020)

Astro said:


> The databook which said Sabo is dead and Luffy = Zoro was approved by Oda. Strong World was approved by Oda and states Shiki rivalled Roger. Yet what we see in the manga dispels this notions. At least 2 years ago Garp, Akainu, Sengoku, Shanks called WB King. So someone is lying.



here is the thing about how "CANON" work

Manga > Oda > any 2ndary source

as long as a 2ndary source of canon is telling us some thing and no other source of canon denying it ... that claim have the edge and benefit of doubt 


and also ... Kaido being known as WSC and strongest in 1 Vs 1 .... surely seem like an old statement about him ... not a new one 

so reasons to doubts are not really high ... cause after all it's just a nickname ... not a canon claim


----------



## TheWiggian (Jan 26, 2020)

Red Admiral said:


> here is the thing about how "CANON" work
> 
> *Manga > Oda > any 2ndary source*
> 
> ...



Iam confused now. Is there someone with more authority than Oda who is the real narrator of One Piece?


----------



## Turrin (Jan 27, 2020)

bil02 said:


> The fact you become stronger by living in a tougher age? Reaching the top is good but true greatness is when you maintain that status and that's what wb did.
> Why wouldn't he become stronger when his enemies are getting stronger and larger in numbers when he was already rivaling roger just by living his own adventures in a weaker age of pirates?
> 
> Kaidou is one crazy dude and doesn't really care about those things and if he had attacked wb weakening him,other top tiers could've finished wb thus him needing to get stronger.
> Please let's just agree to disagree,i'm already tired of repeating the same things over and over again.


1- But it wasn’t a tougher age; he had no real competition in terms of 1v1 strength 

2- Kaidou clearly does care about those things; as the idea of two Yonko meeting was presented as a rarity and the entire story tells us that the Yonko were in a state of balance; and 2 Yonko crew fighting  was a rarity. And even if Kaidou attacked WB; then WB would beat him and another Yonko would t want to face WB would could still weaken their crew enough for the Fourth Yonko to take them


----------



## Quipchaque (Jan 27, 2020)

Roger higher end of high diff.


----------



## bil02 (Jan 27, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- But it wasn’t a tougher age; he had no real competition in terms of 1v1 strength


So you're telling me the great age of piracy didn't have more dangerous and reckless pirates? That age is considered to be the golden age of piracy so wb would've needed to stay focus on all the uprising pirates thus growing with his crew as they already did in the past.
As for having no competition, even if we consider that wb was already the strongest man at that time, other people would've still been a threat to him like garp and all the other top tiers who were still on his general level.If garp was as focused on wb as he was on roger before his death,then he would've weakened wb enough for any great pirate to finish wb.


Turrin said:


> 2- Kaidou clearly does care about those things; as the idea of two Yonko meeting was presented as a rarity and the entire story tells us that the Yonko were in a state of balance; and 2 Yonko crew fighting was a rarity. And even if Kaidou attacked WB; then WB would beat him and another Yonko would t want to face WB would could still weaken their crew enough for the Fourth Yonko to take them


We don't know when the concept of yonkou was created but we can only guess it was after roger's death so another great pirate(like big mom,kaidou,captain john) attacking wb at the start of the great pirate age wouldn't had been a rarity as the concept of yonkou didn't yet exist.And if any of the above did that,they would've weakened wb enough for the navy(sengoku,garp) to finish wb so indeed wb needed to be stronger as long as he had the potential to be(and we know he had the potential to still grow as he was matching roger despite being 4 years younger than him) 
I have peak wb>roger~kaido~old healthy wb>big mom>shanks.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 27, 2020)

bil02 said:


> So you're telling me the great age of piracy didn't have more dangerous and reckless pirates? That age is considered to be the golden age of piracy so wb would've needed to stay focus on all the uprising pirates thus growing with his crew as they already did in the past.
> As for having no competition, even if we consider that wb was already the strongest man at that time, other people would've still been a threat to him like garp and all the other top tiers who were still on his general level.If garp was as focused on wb as he was on roger before his death,then he would've weakened wb enough for any great pirate to finish wb.
> 
> We don't know when the concept of yonkou was created but we can only guess it was after roger's death so another great pirate(like big mom,kaidou,captain john) attacking wb at the start of the great pirate age wouldn't had been a rarity as the concept of yonkou didn't yet exist.And if any of the above did that,they would've weakened wb enough for the navy(sengoku,garp) to finish wb so indeed wb needed to be stronger as long as he had the potential to be(and we know he had the potential to still grow as he was matching roger despite being 4 years younger than him)
> I have peak wb>roger~kaido~old healthy wb>big mom>shanks.


1- More dangerous powerful pirates then Roger; we haven’t seen any that’s for sure. The Marines didn’t really move against the Yonko; it took capturing Ace and WB being Old/Sick; for them to engage him. So I doubt the Marines attacked WB at all; also so far I see no reason to believe Garp was a challenge to Prime WB ether. Sengoku has Garp and 3 other Admirals; and Warlords on his team and still thought they could loose to Old/Sick WB. 

2- Again their isn’t any other Big Pirate that WB would need to get stronger to defeat, period. And as I said let’s say Kaidou attacked WB; and WB beat him, then Marines still likely wouldn’t be able to immediately attack WB, and even if they could mobilize during that time; they would have likely had significant losses against WB to defeat him, which would leave them open to Big Mom going after them or going after One Piece. 

Unless you can show me WB was constantly having to defend actual threats to him which required him to become stronger; any strength gain would be minimal imo if at all.


----------



## bil02 (Jan 27, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- More dangerous powerful pirates then Roger; we haven’t seen any that’s for sure. The Marines didn’t really move against the Yonko; it took capturing Ace and WB being Old/Sick; for them to engage him. So I doubt the Marines attacked WB at all; also so far I see no reason to believe Garp was a challenge to Prime WB ether


What i. Meant by more dangerous pirates was in their recklessness not their strength,during the the great age of piracy,competition grew and thus you are forced to defend your status and as of consequence,you logically grow. If you don't beleive wb had any competiton,hoe come his crew became stronger? Unless you tell me those kids were already at their marineford levels during their clash with the roger pirates.
As for garp,he is the man who teamed with roger to take out rocks crew which wb was part of,and is the same guy who was actively chasing roger after his battle with shiki's fleet in chapter 0,yet you think he was no match for wb who clashed equally with roger very shortly after that? It is pretty clear if garp had gone after wb as actively as he went against roger,he would've weakened him to the point where another great pirate would've finished him thus needding wb to stay focused and logically grow stronger.


Turrin said:


> 2- Again their isn’t any other Big Pirate that WB would need to get stronger to defeat, period. And as I said let’s say Kaidou attacked WB; and WB beat him, then Marines still likely wouldn’t be able to immediately attack WB, and even if they could mobilize during that time; they would have likely had significant losses against WB to defeat him, which would leave them open to Big Mom going after them or going after One Piece.


I've already countered this argument many times;wb formed the wb pirates 33 years ago and grew to the point where he could match roger perfectly 7 years later despite not fighting any top tier of note in between,yet you think he stops growing in strength after Roger's death due to no competition when he was able of matching roger 12 years after god valley incident without fighting anybody of note in between?  Once again,wb strength is from his own adventures and progression not because of any rivalry with anybody,if his strength was from competition, wb would've never been able of matching roger 12 years after god valley as he was fighting nobody of note in between.We even saw wb avoiding the navy at the start of oden's adventure with them,so wb strength isn't from competition but something natural with him.


Turrin said:


> Unless you can show me WB was constantly having to defend actual threats to him which required him to become stronger; any strength gain would be minimal imo if at all.


Crocodile was wiped off by wb due to his recklessness during this great pirate age,something who would've not had happened in Roger's era since that was a calmer era and uprising rookies were alot less reckless.
Again wb growing stronger,is something natural for him as he didn't face any threat of note from when the rox crew was crushed by roger pirates and garp to when he met again roger 12 years later,and yet was perfectly matchinh roger.He doesn't need to have a rival to grow,he only needs to live his own adventures.
So logically,he would've continued growing.It isn't like wb's growth was tied to roger lol,he doesn't need roger to continue growing in strength.
And if you think wb was unchallengable,then logically his crew shouldn't have grown too since their captain remained untested,and reastically we know they continued growing as illustrated by their feats in marineford.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 27, 2020)

bil02 said:


> What i. Meant by more dangerous pirates was in their recklessness not their strength,during the the great age of piracy,competition grew and thus you are forced to defend your status and as of consequence,you logically grow. If you don't beleive wb had any competiton,hoe come his crew became stronger? Unless you tell me those kids were already at their marineford levels during their clash with the roger pirates.
> As for garp,he is the man who teamed with roger to take out rocks crew which wb was part of,and is the same guy who was actively chasing roger after his battle with shiki's fleet in chapter 0,yet you think he was no match for wb who clashed equally with roger very shortly after that? It is pretty clear if garp had gone after wb as actively as he went against roger,he would've weakened him to the point where another great pirate would've finished him thus needding wb to stay focused and logically grow stronger.
> 
> I've already countered this argument many times;wb formed the wb pirates 33 years ago and grew to the point where he could match roger perfectly 7 years later despite not fighting any top tier of note in between,yet you think he stops growing in strength after Roger's death due to no competition when he was able of matching roger 12 years after god valley incident without fighting anybody of note in between?  Once again,wb strength is from his own adventures and progression not because of any rivalry with anybody,if his strength was from competition, wb would've never been able of matching roger 12 years after god valley as he was fighting nobody of note in between.We even saw wb avoiding the navy at the start of oden's adventure with them,so wb strength isn't from competition but something natural with him.
> ...


Again unless you can show me WB fighting anyone worth note after Roger; where he would need to get stronger then being able to match Roger to defeat; well have to agree to disagree


----------



## Beast (Jan 27, 2020)

WB at 55 was still growing?



He isn’t Akainu stop it guys. 
Kappa


----------



## convict (Jan 27, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Roger 10/10 times high (low-mid) diff



I'm going with Roger high to the power of low divided by mid plus 3


----------



## bil02 (Jan 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Again unless you can show me WB fighting anyone worth note after Roger; where he would need to get stronger then being able to match Roger to defeat; well have to agree to disagree


Ok let's agree to disagree.


----------



## Jo Ndule (Jan 28, 2020)

Kaido wins high high diff  or Stalemate

Apart form Haki, Kaido is stronger physically, has better durability and endurance.

Roger haki named attack couldn't K.O or badly injured Commander Oden (not even the version of Oden that Kaido fights) 

BASE Kaido oneshotted a dude who ~ Commander Oden 

Kaido was WSC 5/6 years  ago already! 
He has been top 1 since years ago before WB died! WB wasn't the strongest anymore when he was sick. 
Just like Sick Roger ~ healthy WB, sick WB is below BM and Kaido, 

There is a reason why Oda kept Kaido and BM till post ts, same reason he usually keep the best among a group last!
Akainu was last shown among logia admirals
Kaido last shown among  original Yonko
Kata last shown among SCs
King and Queen last shown among calamities
Marco and Jozu shown after Ace

Old sick WB was below his Rocks colleagues just like old Garp and Sengoku were below Admirals at Marineford arc.

Pre Yonko Kaido is about defeat a much stronger verison of Oden than the one that had WB shook, the one who tanked Roger haki named attack.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## bil02 (Jan 28, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> WB at 55 was still growing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Roger was 4 years older than wb and we know roger died at 54 while wb was 50 right? At that time roger and wb were already equals so what stops wb from growing from equal to roger at age 50 to stronger than that 4 or 5 years later at age 54-55? That's just logic progression dictated by age and living his adventures in a tougher age for pirates.
We know roger and wb fought twice in their life time ie 38 years ago during god valley and 26 years ago when roger took oden from him.We also know the wb pirates were formed 33 years ago and that they didn't fight any top tier of note from that year to when they fought roger pirates 7 years later yet wb was matching roger perfectly which proves wb's growth had nothing to do with rivalries and nothing to do with fighting roger.
From the above,we know wb's strength had nothing to do with fighting roger nor with competiton as wb was even shown actively avoiding the navy at the start of Oden's adventures with him.
So it is only logical for me wb will grow stronger after Roger's death since he was younger than roger at least up to Roger's death age which is 54-55.


----------



## Tornado (Jan 28, 2020)

convict said:


> I'm going with Roger high to the power of low divided by mid plus 3


That's extreme.


----------



## bil02 (Jan 28, 2020)

For me luffy and the supernovas defeating kaido this arc doesn't dehype him imo as roger would've suffered the same fate if he was alive if not worst.​


----------



## Steven (Jan 28, 2020)

PK>Not PK


----------



## Beast (Jan 28, 2020)

bil02 said:


> Roger was 4 years older than wb and we know roger died at 54 while wb was 50 right? At that time roger and wb were already equals so what stops wb from growing from equal to roger at age 50 to stronger than that 4 or 5 years later at age 54-55? That's just logic progression dictated by age and living his adventures in a tougher age for pirates.
> We know roger and wb fought twice in their life time ie 38 years ago during god valley and 26 years ago when roger took oden from him.We also know the wb pirates were formed 33 years ago and that they didn't fight any top tier of note from that year to when they fought roger pirates 7 years later yet wb was matching roger perfectly which proves wb's growth had nothing to do with rivalries and nothing to do with fighting roger.
> From the above,we know wb's strength had nothing to do with fighting roger nor with competiton as wb was even shown actively avoiding the navy at the start of Oden's adventures with him.
> So it is only logical for me wb will grow stronger after Roger's death since he was younger than roger at least up to Roger's death age which is 54-55.


That’s is your own fanfic bruh.... Akainu we know had the fight of his life, there is reason he had grown at age of 50+. 

WB did not have that luxury, from we know his biggest rival in Roger only fought like 3x and he sailed for 20+ years during Rogers time and only fought with him twice.  These powerful crews do not run into each other much... I’m sure most of Kaidous Ls are probably from WB but Kaidou wasn’t on the same level as WB till very late and he got older anything else is just pure fanfic. 

WB being anymore stronger then the version of him that met Oden first is pretty much headcanon as well. 


People are even trying to claim that BM at the age of 67 is still getting stronger. 

Don’t be ridiculous, even with the Rox, Bm and WB were established pirates and no rookies nor weaklings.

Roger was the strongest and WB was there with him. WB being the strongest pirate > Kaidou who is a pirate, it’s simple maths. 


Even these claims of WB being the weakest yonko is no more then more fanfic without any feats to back it up. WB still has the highest endurance and highest offense in the series.


----------



## Corax (Jan 28, 2020)

It is unlikely that most of Kaido's loses are from 1 person. Yonko/admirals/legends rarely meat each over. Also Kaido took his full crew vs Moria,I am sure that each yonko vs yonko is a full scale war,even if Moria was.


----------



## Beast (Jan 28, 2020)

Corax said:


> It is unlikely that most of Kaido's loses are from 1 person. Yonko/admirals/legends rarely meat each over. Also Kaido took his full crew vs Moria,I am sure that each yonko vs yonko is a full scale war,even if Moria was.


I think it was stated how many times he was caught by marines... they said he was caught and beat by Yonko as well... BM and Kaidou hadn’t seen each other in decades and Shanks only became a yonko 6 years ago... which only leaves WB.


----------



## Corax (Jan 28, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> I think it was stated how many times he was caught by marines... they said he was caught and beat by Yonko as well... BM and Kaidou hadn’t seen each other in decades and Shanks only became a yonko 6 years ago... which only leaves WB.


May be BM spared his life and this is his debt?Or Roger during his Rocks career.


----------



## bil02 (Jan 28, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> That’s is your own fanfic bruh.... Akainu we know had the fight of his life, there is reason he had grown at age of 50+.
> 
> WB did not have that luxury, from we know his biggest rival in Roger only fought like 3x and he sailed for 20+ years during Rogers time and only fought with him twice.  These powerful crews do not run into each other much... I’m sure most of Kaidous Ls are probably from WB but Kaidou wasn’t on the same level as WB till very late and he got older anything else is just pure fanfic.
> 
> ...


Did you even understand my logic?  Please read my post again
All the basis for what i said lies in Roger's and wb's 4 years difference in age and the possibility of wb being stronger than roger when he reaches his age.
You say wb had surely already peaked when he met oden at age 44 but from his clash with oden,it is pretty clear they were even(when not factoring the gura gura no mi) and this chapter confirms oden grew much stronger from when he met wb 30 years ago to his return 5 years later.That same oden was amazed by wb's strength in his clash with roger despite being in the wb pirates for 4 years and having clashed with wb on their first meeting(thus logically having an idea of wb's past strength).
That all points towards wb having grown after oden joins him as he was amazed by wb's power despite having an even clash with wb 4 years earlier(yes we shouldn't take one clash seriously,but wb was sweating and certainly couldn't swat oden as a fly as roger did 4 years later)
Also i'm not saying wb grew massively stronger after Roger's death like in your akainu comparison just that at wb's peak,he is superior to roger.
If wb didn't grow at all after Roger's death due to no challenge,then how come his subordinates like marco,vista and jozu all became stronger afterwards? I mean a subordinate's strength is directly tied to his capatain's battles,so if nobody dared to fight the wb pirates or if each enemy was defeated easily by the wb pirates, how come marco,jozu and vista all became stronger? Or are you going to tell me they didn't?
I have peak wb>roger~kaido>big mom
And until further statements from the manga,i'm not changing my mind so if you don't agree with me(as you would probably not lol) let's just agree to disagree.


----------



## Beast (Jan 28, 2020)

bil02 said:


> Did you even understand my logic?  Please read my post again
> All the basis for what i said lies in Roger's and wb's 4 years difference in age and the possibility of wb being stronger than roger when he reaches his age.
> You say wb had surely already peaked when he met oden at age 44 but from his clash with oden,it is pretty clear they were even(when not factoring the gura gura no mi) and this chapter confirms oden grew much stronger from when he met wb 30 years ago to his return 5 years later.That same oden was amazed by wb's strength in his clash with roger despite being in the wb pirates for 4 years and having clashed with wb on their first meeting(thus logically having an idea of wb's past strength).
> That all points towards wb having grown after oden joins him as he was amazed by wb's power despite having an even clash with wb 4 years earlier(yes we shouldn't take one clash seriously,but wb was sweating and certainly couldn't swat oden as a fly as roger did 4 years later)
> ...


Because Marco and Jozu weren’t as strong as WB lol, of course they had challenges. 

I mean you could agree to disagree but that doesn’t mean what you’re saying is actually right.


----------



## bil02 (Jan 28, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Because Marco and Jozu weren’t as strong as WB lol, of course they had challenges


But you people say wb was unchallenged after Roger's death,then how come marco,jozu and vista grew stronger? I mean if nobody dares challenging the wb pirates,then they can't get stronger lol.
And if wb annihilates all his enemies,then his crew can't grow in power because their captain one shots all credible threats and they are left with nothing to do.


MasterBeast said:


> I mean you could agree to disagree but that doesn’t mean what you’re saying is actually right


Sure but that's my understanding of power levels in this manga and until the manga shows the opposite,i wouldn't change my mind on that.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 29, 2020)

bil02 said:


> But you people say wb was unchallenged after Roger's death,then how come marco,jozu and vista grew stronger? I mean if nobody dares challenging the wb pirates,then they can't get stronger lol.
> And if wb annihilates all his enemies,then his crew can't grow in power because their captain one shots all credible threats and they are left with nothing to do.
> 
> Sure but that's my understanding of power levels in this manga and until the manga shows the opposite,i wouldn't change my mind on that.


Dude there were actually people on Marco and Jozu’s level to challenge them; their weren’t for WB. That’s the problem with your entire logic; WB had zero competition after Roger died


----------



## ImpalerDragon (Jan 30, 2020)

Kaido will win. If it mano o mano always bet for kaido.


----------



## Flame (Jan 30, 2020)

^


----------



## Lurko (Jan 31, 2020)

ImpalerDragon said:


> Kaido will win. If it mano o mano always bet for kaido.


----------



## Admiral Akanezumi (Jan 31, 2020)

ImpalerDragon said:


> Kaido will win. If it mano o mano always bet for kaido.


----------



## Corax (Jan 31, 2020)

ImpalerDragon said:


> Kaido will win. If it mano o mano always bet for kaido.


We have a very confidentional info about this matter. Though can't say more. Eyes only.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Beast (Jan 31, 2020)

ImpalerDragon said:


> Kaido will win. If it mano o mano always bet for kaido.


This did not age well.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 31, 2020)

ImpalerDragon said:


> Kaido will win. If it mano o mano always bet for kaido.


----------



## Steven (Jan 31, 2020)

ImpalerDragon said:


> Kaido will win. If it mano o mano always bet for kaido.


----------



## trance (Jan 31, 2020)




----------



## RossellaFiamingo (Jan 31, 2020)

Kaido wins if Roger has someone with him that he holds hostage.


----------



## blueice12 (Jan 31, 2020)

Kaido wins he works with Doffy who has Pcia
Roger needs to show the DC to beat Pica


----------



## Fujitora (Jan 31, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> This did not age well.


Why not? Nothing that happened disproves that, but ofc rogers wins.


----------



## Kinjin (Feb 2, 2020)

Thread unlocked.

Closed it because people were alluding to spoilers.


----------



## Steven (Feb 2, 2020)

Roger moops the floor with Kaido


----------



## blueice12 (Feb 2, 2020)

Ace gets hostaged and Roger turns
Kaido smacks him


----------

