# Thanos vs Goku and Superman



## Hamaru (Dec 11, 2006)

As the thread says.....FIGHT!!!


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## Orion (Dec 11, 2006)

goku or supes dont really pack enough power to put thanos down...and on the other hand he has plenty to kill them.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 11, 2006)

Where's Rice Ball when you need him/her. . .


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> goku or supes dont really pack enough power to put thanos down...and on the other hand he has plenty to kill them.



Supes packs more than enough power to take Thanos out by himself. Which is why I give him this fight (by himself). I think Supes can go toe to toe with Thanos without using his Superspeed, with it though, he takes Thanos the majority of the time.


Goku isn't needed.


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## Hamaru (Dec 11, 2006)

Who is rice ball? And yea I think Thanos would kill them but anyone can be wrong including me.


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## Kai (Dec 11, 2006)

Which Superman? Does Thanos have infinity gauntlet?


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2006)

Hamaru said:


> Who is rice ball? And yea I think Thanos would kill them but anyone can be wrong including me.



Rice Ball is the biggest Thanos fan (but I wouldn't call him a fanboy though). 

I think Thanos kills too, just not a majority over Supes.




> Which Superman? Does Thanos have infinity gauntlet?



I'm assuming it's current Supes and Thanos. If Thanos have the IG, there wouldn't be any need for this battle, since they wouldn't stand a chance.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 11, 2006)

I'd try to argue in this thread, but I don't know much about Thanos' capabilities and powers to do so.


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> I'd try to argue in this thread, but I don't know much about Thanos' capabilities and powers to do so.



You seem to know more about comic characters than almost anybody I know at this board (especailly Thanos, who's pretty popular on the internet).


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## Superrazien (Dec 11, 2006)

Supes and Goku, kind of like the ultimate team.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 11, 2006)

> You seem to know more about comic characters than almost anybody I know at this board (especailly Thanos, who's pretty popular on the internet).



Despite all I know, there's still more for me to learn.

I know about Thanos and the basics, but not in-depth enough to participate in a vs. thread.


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## Hamaru (Dec 11, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> I'd try to argue in this thread, but I don't know much about Thanos' capabilities and powers to do so.



Thanos fights with gods damn near on a daily basses. He also fights with Galactus (A guy who eats planets). Thanos IMO is too much for superman and goku. Here is some info on him. Also he has his rings.

Powers and Abilities

Intelligence: Superhuman
Strength: Superhuman Class 100
Speed: Enhanced Human
Stamina: Godlike
Durability: Godlike
Agility: Enhanced human
Reflexes: Enhanced Human
Fighting skills: Thanos generally dismissed physical combat, he possesses formidable fighting skills. Special Skills and Abilities: Vast Knowledge of Science, Metaphysics, and the Occult. 
Superhuman Physical Powers: Besides the above listed attributes, Thanos possesses various superhuman powers, including the ability to tap, transform, and direct vast quantities of cosmic energy for destructive force. 
Superhuman Mental Powers: Thanos has demonstrated psionic abilities, including telepathy, the limits of which are unknown. 
Special Limitations: None 
Source of Superhuman Powers: Thanos is a mutant member of the race of superhumans known as the Eternals, who has augmented his abilities through scientific and mystical means. Further augmentation performed by the manifestation of Death upon Thanos' resurrection.


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## Orion (Dec 11, 2006)

thanos has takin shots from odin galactus and tyrant all of which are leagues above what goku and supes can dish out,thanos has beat the silver surfer to death a being which could handle either goku or supes with majority,once thanos starts using the power cosmic this is over.he also fought evenly with warrior madness power gem thor which could also slaughter supes or goku.


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## MSGohan (Dec 11, 2006)

Which Superman are we talking about? How would Thanos beat Pre-Crisis Superman?


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## Orion (Dec 11, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Which Superman are we talking about? How would Thanos beat Pre-Crisis Superman?



battledome rules are its always the current version unless otherwise said.


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## Hamaru (Dec 11, 2006)

Bullet said:


> Supes packs more than enough power to take Thanos out by himself. Which is why I give him this fight (by himself). I think Supes can go toe to toe with Thanos without using his Superspeed, with it though, he takes Thanos the majority of the time.
> 
> 
> Goku isn't needed.



You think Superman can beat him alone? Thanos's profile states that he can lift 100 tons! Thats more then I have seen supes lift. Also he was able to fair evenly with The Thing and Thor BEFORE his MAJOR powerup!


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## MSGohan (Dec 11, 2006)

Hamaru said:


> You think Superman can beat him alone? Thanos's profile states that he can lift 100 tons! Thats more then I have seen supes lift. Also he was able to fair evenly with The Thing and Thor BEFORE his MAJOR powerup!



If Thanos can't lift more than that, then JLU Supes can beat with ease...


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## Kai (Dec 11, 2006)

Hamaru said:


> You think Superman can beat him alone? Thanos's profile states that he can lift 100 tons! Thats more then I have seen supes lift. Also he was able to fair evenly with The Thing and Thor BEFORE his MAJOR powerup!



Um, no. You should go read Superman comics they're pretty interesting. Superman can lift up 40 billion tons, I think. Something around there. 

You've yet to tell us which Superman you're using, and if Thanos has Infinity Gauntlet.


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## Hamaru (Dec 11, 2006)

He lifts OVER 100 tons. Thanos is yet to show all of his physicall stregth so no that is not his limet. It states that his strength is god like. Also its JL superman.


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2006)

> Hamaru said:
> 
> 
> > Thanos fights with gods damn near on a daily basses. He also fights with Galactus (A guy who eats planets).
> ...


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## Vynjira (Dec 11, 2006)

Space said:


> Um, no. You should go read Superman comics they're pretty interesting. Superman can lift up 40 billion tons, I think. Something around there.
> 
> You've yet to tell us which Superman you're using, and if Thanos has Infinity Gauntlet.



Upwards of 60 billion tons I believe.

Thanos as others have said casually beats the piss out of the likes of Thor and Silver Surfer.

Class 100 strength in Marvel is anything above 100 tons. Gladiator is class 100 but he casually lifts over 1,000 tons, Hulk as we all know has been seen holding a 150 billion ton mountain range but he's still Class 100. Because unlike DCU Marvel has characters inbetween class 10 and class 100. Meanwhile in the DCU if you have superstrength your class 100. (I can't think of any exceptions if you think of any DC chars that are between then let me know cause I've been trying.)


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> thanos has takin shots from odin galactus and tyrant all of which are leagues above what goku and supes can dish out,thanos has beat the silver surfer to death a being which could handle either goku or supes with majority,once thanos starts using the power cosmic this is over.he also fought evenly with warrior madness power gem thor which could also slaughter supes or goku.




Thanos has taken shots from Odin who wasn't going all out, He's never taken a shot from Galactus without having his shields up (and Galactus was weak), and he needed an Item to be Tyrant, he couldn't even fase him until he did. He has beaten none of them before, although he did get respect from Odin. Thor has beten Surfer, Supes fights beings like Thor and Surfer all the time, so Thanos beating them doesn't put him above Supes. Thanos can use his power cosmic, what has he shown with it? I hope it increases his speed, because he won't be touching nothing. He lost against WM Thor, he fled to get an item use on Thor, who was winning the battle. Thanos will lose.


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2006)

> Vynjira said:
> 
> 
> > Upwards of 60 billion tons I believe.
> ...


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## Orion (Dec 11, 2006)

Bullet said:


> Thanos has taken shots from Odin who wasn't going all out, He's never taken a shot from Galactus without having his shields up (and Galactus was weak), and he needed an Item to be Tyrant, he couldn't even fase him until he did. He has beaten none of them before, although he did get respect from Odin. Thor has beten Surfer, Supes fights beings like Thor and Surfer all the time, so Thanos beating them doesn't put him above Supes. Thanos can use his power cosmic, what has he shown with it? I hope it increases his speed, because he won't be touching nothing. He lost against WM Thor, he fled to get an item use on Thor, who was winning the battle. Thanos will lose.



hes shown preety much everything the power cosmic is know for,and i know he didnt beat those people the point was he took hits and kept coming,and they are about 9 tiers above what supes can dish out,and thanos and thor fought preety much evenly thanos ended it with the gun because it got boring,even if those was slightly loosing to thor,thor was wm which as already above supes and the fucking power gem.and to all the supes can lift 100 zillion tons or w/e im preety sure that was never the current supes,if we can use any version we want then i guess ill use hotu thanos,who proceeds to think supes and goku outta existence.


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## Hamaru (Dec 11, 2006)

Bullet said:


> > Supes hasn't shown a limit in strength yet.
> >
> > Thanos hasn't beaten Thor, when ever he fights Thor he's either running or is amped. He's beaten Surfer, but Surfer isn't a being that can fight physically with Thanos like Thor could.
> 
> ...


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## MSGohan (Dec 11, 2006)

Can Thanos' power be displayed by comparing to Thing and Thor??? How fast is Thor, and Thanos?

EDIT: Thor get's a little pwned by Spidey speed 

*Spoiler*: __ 




SD Gundam Scad Hammers Wii Off-screen Gameplay vid (135 MB, right click to save)
SD Gundam Scad Hammers Wii Off-screen Gameplay vid (135 MB, right click to save)
SD Gundam Scad Hammers Wii Off-screen Gameplay vid (135 MB, right click to save)
SD Gundam Scad Hammers Wii Off-screen Gameplay vid (135 MB, right click to save)
SD Gundam Scad Hammers Wii Off-screen Gameplay vid (135 MB, right click to save)
SD Gundam Scad Hammers Wii Off-screen Gameplay vid (135 MB, right click to save)


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## Rice Ball (Dec 11, 2006)

<sigh> whys is it always bullet.

First of all, Odin was going flat out, if he wasn't why did he summon the Gungnir? Infact without it he couldn't even move Thanos.

Thanos stated in that book that Galactus was WELL FED, meaning Thanos shield enabled him to tank a FULL power attack from Galactus, something that few have managed.

The energy he used against Tyrant was only the energy Tyrant had stolen from Morg, and he didn't get that much of it. Current Thanos would can unlock his own power cosmic could likely gather the same ammount of power or greater.

Thanos didn't lose against Warrior Madness Thor, after entertaining himself with a brawl, he said he 'tires of this' summons a weapon and captures Thor with 1 attack.  This is something the whole of the infinity watch, Surfer and Dr strange failed to do.

Please read this thread before you post again-
More Gai!!

The result depends on the ammount of equipment Thanos is allowed to use and if he has prep. If he has Ship/Golden Throne then he'd more than likely win, if he doesn't it would be alot closer, i'd say his brawl skills are equal to superman (maybe 6/10 win to Thanos due to Transmutation skills and Psychic abilities) Adding Goku to the mix (who i believe is JUST below superman)



			
				msgohan said:
			
		

> Can Thanos' power be displayed by comparing to Thing and Thor??? How fast is Thor, and Thanos?



Thanos is likely equal to Thor (They have had close fights in the past) but totally out class's Thing.


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## Hamaru (Dec 11, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Can Thanos' power be displayed by comparing to Thing and Thor??? How fast is Thor, and Thanos?
> 
> EDIT: Thor get's a little pwned by Spidey speed
> 
> ...



If you pay attention he is fighting the Hulk as well. Hulk, Thor, and The thing at the same time is not someting to take lightly


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## MSGohan (Dec 11, 2006)

Hamaru said:


> If you pay attention he is fighting the Hulk as well. Hulk, Thor, and The thing at the same time is not someting to take lightly



At the last 3-4 scans you can see that his only "fighting" with Spiderman. I didn't try to say that Spidey was stronger than him, only to show that Thor is not fast.

Thor: "I... I'm bigger.. Stronger... Far more powerful... But I can't seem to lay a hand on him."

I don't think Thanos would be able to keep up with Supes near light speed. Since a match (Thanos) against Thor shouldn't even be fair for Thor, because he should never be able lay a hand on Thanos.
So the question is would Thanos be able to keep up with Superman's speed?


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## Hamaru (Dec 11, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> At the last 3-4 scans you can see that his only "fighting" with Spiderman. I didn't try to say that Spidey was stronger than him, only to show that Thor is not fast.
> 
> Thor: "I... I'm bigger.. Stronger... Far more powerful... But I can't seem to lay a hand on him."
> 
> ...



In my last scan Thanos was fighting HULK, Thor, and The thing so im guessing that he can move fast. Also he is able to keep up with the Silver surfer who's stregth rivels the HULK and moves at warp speed 

Here's his MySpace


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## Rice Ball (Dec 11, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> So the question is would Thanos be able to keep up with Superman's speed?



Because hes dodged Hyperspace travel, while he might be a large hes faught against speedsters like Captain Marvel, Eros, Thor etc. The fight with Eros was a good example of this, the first part if the fight he couldn't land a punch, but he concentrated and grabbed him mid air and KOed him with a single hit.

He was also Gamora's sparing partner for a long time


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 11, 2006)

Aye. Thanos did train Gamora, the "Deadliest Woman in the Universe", if I recall the title right.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 11, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> He was also Gamora's sparing partner for a long time



I'll be Gamora's partner anyday


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 11, 2006)

Envious of Nova and Adam Warlock, aren't you?


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 11, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Envious of Nova and Adam Warlock, aren't you?



She was pretty fugly when she was with Warlock, she was very very fine with Nova though

Still nothing on Felicia though.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 11, 2006)

Damn right.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 11, 2006)

Second that


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## BRANCHEAD33 (Dec 11, 2006)

Hamaru said:


> You think Superman can beat him alone? Thanos's profile states that he can lift 100 tons! Thats more then I have seen supes lift. Also he was able to fair evenly with The Thing and Thor BEFORE his MAJOR powerup!



TOO BAD thing and thor are not as strong as supes

and 100 tons

whoo big deal

that is what hulk starts off with and supes is  stronger by far before he gets angry(estimate)


and enhanced human speed not as fast as light now is it

and supes can lift 200 quintillion tons


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 11, 2006)

Class 100 designates anyone who are able to lift (press) 100 tons or more.

And the 200-quintillion-one-arm thing is All-Star Superman.

Here, I assume it's post-Crisis Superman, the one everyone is most familiar with.


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## Orion (Dec 11, 2006)

like i said if we use any version that suits our fancy guess ima bust out hotu thanos and he wins by thinking goku and supes outta existance.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 11, 2006)

Though, Pre-Crisis Superman would probably develop an anti-HOTU power, and be immune to it.


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## Orion (Dec 11, 2006)

^^nah he isnt pulling out that insane of a power .


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 11, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> like i said if we use any version that suits our fancy guess ima bust out hotu thanos and he wins by thinking goku and supes outta existance.



But Goku can use the Dragon balls!


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## Orion (Dec 11, 2006)

Last of the Retards said:


> But Goku can use the Dragon balls!



which have a limit unlike hotu  .


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 11, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> which have a limit unlike hotu  .



It does have a limit, if it didn't then Thanos or that i*c*st Pharoah guy would have been omnipotent


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## Orion (Dec 11, 2006)

Last of the Retards said:


> It does have a limit, if it didn't then Thanos or that i*c*st Pharoah guy would have been omnipotent



for all intents and purposes thanos was omnipotent,he wtf bitchslapped lt around,and the pharaoh was just drawing power from the hotu he didnt actually have it.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 11, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> for all intents and purposes thanos was omnipotent,he wtf bitchslapped lt around,and the pharaoh was just drawing power from the hotu he didnt actually have it.



It was the M-body. Not the actual LT

If he truly was Omnipotent then he could have simply think the cancer of the universe into nothing


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## Orion (Dec 11, 2006)

Last of the Retards said:


> It was the M-body. Not the actual LT
> 
> If he truly was Omnipotent then he could have simply think the cancer of the universe into nothing



fine hes nigh omnipotent enough to think goku supes and the dragonballs outta existence .


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 11, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> fine hes nigh omnipotent enough to think goku supes and the dragonballs outta existence .



But Supes is protected by the Source!


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## Orion (Dec 11, 2006)

Last of the Retards said:


> But Supes is protected by the Source!



thanos tells the source to go fuck itself,and it listens .


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2006)

> Rice Ball said:
> 
> 
> > <sigh> whys is it always bullet.
> ...


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## Orion (Dec 12, 2006)

thanos always has his shield and his shield has only fallen under people much stronger than goku and supes,he can take anything supes and goku can dish out and send it back 2 fold,i dont see thanos losing to post crisis supes.


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## Vynjira (Dec 12, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> thanos always has his shield and his shield has only fallen under people much stronger than goku and supes,he can take anything supes and goku can dish out and send it back 2 fold,i dont see thanos losing to post crisis supes.



I concur, Thanos isn't a pushover and he should win. Plot devices aside Thanos wins.


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## Hamaru (Dec 12, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> I concur, Thanos isn't a pushover and he should win. Plot devices aside Thanos wins.



and that is the truth lol.


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## Bullet (Dec 12, 2006)

> vlaaad12345 said:
> 
> 
> > thanos always has his shield and his shield has only fallen under people much stronger than goku and supes,
> ...


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## Orion (Dec 12, 2006)

and how would post crisis beat thanos most of the time,thanos has takin beatings from people far more powerful then supes and got back up for more.


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## Bullet (Dec 12, 2006)

> Vynjira said:
> 
> 
> > I concur, Thanos isn't a pushover and he should win.
> ...


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## Bullet (Dec 12, 2006)

> vlaaad12345 said:
> 
> 
> > and how would post crisis beat thanos most of the time,thanos has takin beatings from people far more powerful then supes and got back up for more.
> ...


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## Orion (Dec 12, 2006)

Bullet said:


> > Supes has taken beatings from beings far more powerful than Thanos, what's your point? Thanos isn't the only that fights beings far above him in power and survive. Plenty of characters has done so, not just Thanos and Supes, but countless. Almost all characters have to face beings that's greater them sooner or later.
> 
> 
> 
> and what beatings has supes takin that would put him anywhere near thanos durability.not to mention thanos is still supes physical superior as well.


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## Vynjira (Dec 12, 2006)

Should be mentioned Thanos would win a few rounds with Doomsday >.>;


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## Orion (Dec 12, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> Should be mentioned Thanos would win a few rounds with Doomsday >.>;



anything less then hp doomsday would get manhandled like thanos did drax and hulk .


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## Hamaru (Dec 12, 2006)

Doomsday would loose, but wont go down too easy.


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## Bullet (Dec 12, 2006)

> vlaaad12345 said:
> 
> 
> > Bullet said:
> ...


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## Bullet (Dec 12, 2006)

Hamaru said:


> Doomsday would loose, but wont go down too easy.




If it's GW Doomsday, he'll win.


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## Orion (Dec 12, 2006)

Bullet said:


> If it's GW Doomsday, he'll win.



thanos would beat hp or dos dd as well.


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## Bullet (Dec 12, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> thanos would beat hp or dos dd as well.




You misunderstood me, GW's Doomsday would beat thanos IMO. But, yeah, Hp and Dos Doomsday would lose.


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## Orion (Dec 12, 2006)

Bullet said:


> You misunderstood me, GW's Doomsday would beat thanos IMO. But, yeah, Hp and Dos Doomsday would lose.



o never really read up on gw dd,dont really like doomsday....ever since he killed supes i was like fuck that guy  .


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## Bullet (Dec 12, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> o never really read up on gw dd,dont really like doomsday....ever since he killed supes i was like fuck that guy  .




Doomsday didn't kill Supes, he just beat him into a coma.


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## Orion (Dec 12, 2006)

Bullet said:


> Doomsday didn't kill Supes, he just beat him into a coma.



then was i dreaming when i read the thing on his funeral....i gotta stop doing drugs.


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## Orion (Dec 12, 2006)

guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one bullet.im goin to bed gn everyone.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 12, 2006)

Actually, it's been retconned that Doomsday beaten Superman into a death-like coma, not to his death.

And yes, that retcons the whole Pa and Clark soul journey-thingy too.


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## Vynjira (Dec 12, 2006)

*Spoiler*: _Repect for Thanos_ 




















*Spoiler*: _Galactus_


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 12, 2006)

You might want to redo your Tyrant links.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 12, 2006)

And your Thanos links


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## Vynjira (Dec 12, 2006)

Can't you guys just click em u.u; its late and I want sleep u.u


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 12, 2006)

Don't worry; respect threads are easy to search for on the Internet.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 12, 2006)

I actually didn't need to look at them, Rice Ball has pretty much put up every page with Thanos in it


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 12, 2006)

Not to mention Id also added Thanos' entry to the Powers Directory here.


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## Enclave (Dec 12, 2006)

Goku is a complete non-issue in this battle (he is far outclassed by Superman and Thanos).  So really this is Thanos vs Superman and really Thanos take take this without much trouble at all.  People compare him to Darkseid often but that is just because Thanos was based on Darkseid when he was first created.  He has moved beyond that quite a bit.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 12, 2006)

Thanos would probably take this 7/10.... he's fought and even beaten much stronger people than these two combined.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 12, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> If Odin was going all out, galaxies would have been destroyed. Odin wasn't going all out, he did used half his power.



This can be explained just like dragonball's missed blasts not destroying planets etc, from the look of the Gungnir it was a perfect focus of his powers, he wouldn't of summoned it if he could of dealt with Thanos without it. Either way walking up to odin while he can the Gungnir focused on him is one hell of a endurence feat.



> And he couldn't beat Tyrant on his own, like I said.



And nor could anyone below Galactus
If you see my point, if it was 'only' half of morgs stolen energy he used, Thanos wasn't 'that' far of Tyrant compaired to the others who didn't stand a chance against him as a team.



> He lost, he ran from the fight with a bloody mouth, Thor wasn't even hurt, and still rready to fight. Thanos went to go get one of his guns, he fled from battle.



I suppose you could take it that way, however i didn't, check the scans below, the expression on Thanos face isn't 'Oh i've been cut' its more like 'I haven't had a fight this good for ages'









Link for the last one as can only have 6 images per post.

It was a pretty funky battle, but Thanos himself explains it, so i'll take his word for it, I grow weary of this = i'm going to win now 



> Why is it that Thanos always needs equipment in a battle? In that case Supes should be allowed to use items.



Alot of the situations thanos is in, he has an ammount of prep to come up with a plan and he has his ship or travels on his Throne. So its not like every time he shows up hes alone, he normally has access to his goodies. Which why i rather people say exactly what state Thanos is in when they make a battle with him. Another example is his teleportation, whats stopping Thanos teleporting Superman into the middle of the Red sun?



> AGain if Thanos gets Items, so does Supes. And Transmutation doesn't work on Supes and he's very resistant to Psychic attacks, if Thanos even tries to use it (and that's only at a close range, Thanos has never displayed psychic attacks at long range) Supes will use T-vo, ending the fight even faster. If the fight goes into a brawl, I think Thanos and Supes will go at it for awhile, until Supes decides to use his superspeed ending the fight. Goku isn't need (and way below both of them), but if he was to help, him and Supes will kill Thanos with a speedbiltz. An IT combined with a Kamehameha wave with Supes Heat Vision and Cold Breath will be a cool and devastating attack



His attack against Galactus was long ranged, his worth Psychic attacks have been short range. As i keep saying, his super speed will not be enough, an example of this is the fight against Eros (Starfox), eros flys through space at beyond lightspeed and then enters melee with Thanos, Thanos has trouble hitting him but then plucks him out of mid air and slam him into a wall.

A little question about some DC villians, are Darksied/Mongal/Livewire/Lex luthor all speedsters. I'd say Darksied is pretty much like Thanos, not a speedster but able to fight with one equally if challenged.


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## Bullet (Dec 12, 2006)

> This can be explained just like dragonball's missed blasts not destroying planets etc, from the look of the Gungnir it was a perfect focus of his powers, he wouldn't of summoned it if he could of dealt with Thanos without it. Either way walking up to odin while he can the Gungnir focused on him is one hell of a endurence feat.



Or it wasn't just galaxy destroying or planet destroy. Based on Odin's previous fights against beings far more powerful than Thanos, he wasn't close to going all out. And I never said that fighting Odin wasn't a feat.



> And nor could anyone below Galactus
> If you see my point, if it was 'only' half of morgs stolen energy he used, Thanos wasn't 'that' far of Tyrant compaired to the others who didn't stand a chance against him as a team.



No. Thanos way below Tyrant, he didn't even damage him, Tyrant was walking through his blasts and simply toying with him. Thanos only hurt him by using an item. Tyrant took on all of the hearalds including Gladiator, and he beat them with ease. Thanos can't pull off a feat like that.



> I suppose you could take it that way, however i didn't, check the scans below, the expression on Thanos face isn't 'Oh i've been cut' its more like 'I haven't had a fight this good for ages'



It's more like, "if I stand and fight him, I'll lose". 




> Link for the last one as can only have 6 images per post.
> 
> It was a pretty funky battle, but Thanos himself explains it, so i'll take his word for it, I grow weary of this = i'm going to win now



And that's when he fled to go get his gun, because he was about to lose.



> Alot of the situations thanos is in, he has an ammount of prep to come up with a plan and he has his ship or travels on his Throne.




Yes, but this is a battle, no prep is included. If Thanos gets to use items, Supes should be able to aswell.



> So its not like every time he shows up hes alone, he normally has access to his goodies.




Those are still items, and not his own abilities. If he is allowed to use them, then Supes should be able to aswell.



> Which why i rather people say exactly what state Thanos is in when they make a battle with him.



Well the thread stater said, Thanos vs. Superman and Goku, not Thanos with prep vs. Supes and Goku.




> Another example is his teleportation, whats stopping Thanos teleporting Superman into the middle of the Red sun?



Can Thanos teleport without the use of an item? Can he teleport that far? And I doubt Supes will just let someone grab him, especailly when Supes is far more faster than him. Even if he was to be teleported to the red sun, Supes will be back out in no time.



> His attack against Galactus was long ranged, his worth Psychic attacks have been short range.



Supes has long range attacks also, Thanos psychic attacks is only short range, but Supes is very risistant to them and has T-vo for a better counter. I have never seen Thanos control somebody awake though with his psychic attacks.



> As i keep saying, his super speed will not be enough, an example of this is the fight against Eros (Starfox), eros flys through space at beyond lightspeed and then enters melee with Thanos, Thanos has trouble hitting him but then plucks him out of mid air and slam him into a wall.




Eros doesn't have fighting reflexive speeds like Supes. Supes speeds will be to much for Thanos. If Thanos gets lucky and actually hit Supes, so what, Supes is durable enough to take hits, he'll just contiue on with the speedbiltz.



> A little question about some DC villians, are Darksied/Mongal/Livewire/Lex luthor all speedsters.




Darkseid has Superspeed and his son Orion. When Supes fights Live wire, Lex, and Mongul, he always holds back. And doesn't use his superspeed because he can take hits since he's very durable. But when he's serious, he will speedbiltz you, like he did to Mongul, when got tired of him.



> I'd say Darksied is pretty much like Thanos,not a speedster but able to fight with one equally if challenged.




Well that's where you're mistaken, Darksied and his son Orion both have Superspeed. The first time Supes met Darkseid he said he could barely keep up with his movements and Orion and Darkseid was using superspeed in their battle too. Orion has speedbiltz alot of people. Then you have other characters like Captain Marvel, Black Adam, Eradicator, WW, Supergirl, Doomsday,G. Zod, and even his recent incounter with Subject (plenty more), all had Superspeed. Lightning is in slow motion to him, he's faster and thinks faster than a machine and can read a whole libray in seconds (this proves more of his reaction and thinking speeds), and he can vibrate invisible and intangible (this is done by shaking your body at very high speeds, you need to be lightspeed to do it). Supes is very fast, and I don't think Thanos will be able to stop him once he starts.


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 12, 2006)

I posted a link with Thanos himself saying 'I told you, I grow Weary of this. I would be DONE with it. While smiling and holding a gun after shooting him. At no point did Thanos say during that battle 'if this continues i'll lose'. I've already posted the scans of the battle, no more proof is needed.



			
				Bullet said:
			
		

> Those are still items, and not his own abilities. If he is allowed to use them, then Supes should be able to aswell.





			
				Bullet said:
			
		

> Well the thread stater said, Thanos vs. Superman and Goku, not Thanos with prep vs. Supes and Goku.



You fail to understand what i wrote there, i'll make it even simpler. If Thanos uses his teleporter/ship in 75% of his encounters should we call that his 'standard equipment' Just like the Surfers board is considered his standard equipment. Everyone assumed batman comes with his items and the GL comes with his ring right?



			
				Bullet said:
			
		

> Can Thanos teleport without the use of an item? Can he teleport that far? And I doubt Supes will just let someone grab him, especailly when Supes is far more faster than him. Even if he was to be teleported to the red sun, Supes will be back out in no time.



Yes he can, he does in a number of times in the series Thanos and Annilation. He also used his teleporter as a weapon against Champion, Champion was running towards Thanos who was standing still, Thanos teleported him from a distance.

So i guess thats an easy way out for me, Thanos Teleports Superman into the sun multiple times untill superman is drained of energy, teleports him out and makes him into a herald.
I guess teleporting a lump of Kyptonite into the battle field and shoving it down supermans throat would be too much?



> Eros doesn't have fighting reflexive speeds like Supes. Supes speeds will be to much for Thanos. If Thanos gets lucky and actually hit Supes, so what, Supes is durable enough to take hits, he'll just contiue on with the speedbiltz.



Yes Eros DOES have fast reaction speeds, he did speed around Thanos evading his punches. He tried to speed blitz Thanos and Failed. Just like superman would fail. 
Sorry Thanos would survive Supermans speed blitz and likely beat him in a straight brawl, specially with shields etc.

Hell i've changed my mind, Thanos wins this battle 9/10. Teleports Goku into space while his shield holds back superman, then deals with superman 1v1.


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## Vynjira (Dec 12, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> I posted a link with Thanos himself saying 'I told you, I grow Weary of this. I would be DONE with it. While smiling and holding a gun after shooting him. At no point did Thanos say during that battle 'if this continues i'll lose'. I've already posted the scans of the battle, no more proof is needed.


Also in no way shape or form does Thanos at that point look anything more than bored while Thor starts to prove how stupid he really is to Silver Surfer. The author virtually spelled it out saying Thanos got bored.





Rice Ball said:


> You fail to understand what i wrote there, i'll make it even simpler. If Thanos uses his teleporter/ship in 75% of his encounters should we call that his 'standard equipment' Just like the Surfers board is considered his standard equipment. Everyone assumed batman comes with his items and the GL comes with his ring right?


Exactly the reason Thanos should come with certain tech equip he has on/or with him almost all the time.


Bullet said:


> Or it wasn't just galaxy destroying or planet destroy. Based on Odin's previous fights against beings far more powerful than Thanos, he wasn't close to going all out. And I never said that fighting Odin wasn't a feat.


Well Odin was laying into him really hard and was upset he couldn't kill Thanos he also pulled out things on Thanos that he doesn't normally use.. and Thanos was still goin. 

Thanos has more showing against high tier character than showings of him being halted by low tier characters(Usually heroes mind you)

Plot normally drops him to lower tiers. If your gonna ignore 90% of his showings because Spiderman or Thing or whoever tagged him then yea I could see how you would think Superman would curb-stomp him.

Fact is tho he is alot higher than you appearently think he is. Odin even commented the only difference in their power was that Odin's was divine and Thanos was tech driven... While Thanos continued to prove he was really close to being Odin's equal.


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## Kinjishi (Dec 12, 2006)

Bullet said:


> I'm assuming it's current Supes and Thanos. If Thanos have the IG, there wouldn't be any need for this battle, since they wouldn't stand a chance.



If I'm not mistaken, current Thanos is dead. But that really doesnt matter. 



			
				Bullet said:
			
		

> Thanos doesn't fight with gods, I think you're mistaken. And he wouldn't stand a chance against Galactus, a being that's far above him in power. Thanos could probably hurt a not so fed Galactus, but he'll still lose.







Even though he eventually lost, I doubt Supes or Goku can even come close to the power of Thanos. Thanos' vast intellect will be the deciding factor, not to mention all his cosmic capabilities.


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## Orion (Dec 12, 2006)

thanos teleport goku into a star,thanos use power cosmic to use either krpyonite radiation on supes or just bring him to a red sun,or in a straight hand to hand thanos would still win.


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## Vynjira (Dec 12, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> thanos use power cosmic to use either krpyonite radiation on supes or just bring him to a red sun,or in a straight hand to hand


OR, he flat out Crushes Goku and proceeds to lay into Superman with everything he has and we get to watch Superman struggle as he gets torn apart by Thanos' power.


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## Gooba (Dec 12, 2006)

I think we aren't giving his intellect nearly enough credit right here.  He has won fights against Galactus, Galactus times 2 (Omega), a Universe destroying threat, which was able to fight Galactus evenly, and steal from cosmics because of his planning skills.  His mind is as powerful as any energy blast or muscle in his body.  He'll come up with a way to win this, even if he is weaker and slower than Supes and Goku (which I disagree with).


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## Bullet (Dec 12, 2006)

> I posted a link with Thanos himself saying 'I told you, I grow Weary of this.



Yeah, you posted him fleeing from battle. Thor himself said that.



> I would be DONE with it. While smiling and holding a gun after shooting him. At no point did Thanos say during that battle 'if this continues i'll lose'.



Read my post again. I know he did say "if this continues, I'll lose", I said that's what he really meant, he was fighting a losing battle.



> I've already posted the scans of the battle, no more proof is needed.



You didn't have to show the scans in the first place, I didn't need to see them. Thanos ran from battle, he was about to lose.



> You fail to understand what i wrote there, i'll make it even simpler. If Thanos uses his teleporter/ship in 75% of his encounters should we call that his 'standard equipment'



Again, if he uses items, than Supes should be allowed to use them also. Thanos doesn't have his equipment with him every where he goes.


> Just like the Surfers board is considered his standard equipment.



Surfer wouldn't be Surfer without his board, or be able to fly.




> Everyone assumed batman comes with his items and the GL comes with his ring right?



GL's wouldn't be GL without their rings. Thanos on the other hand has powers of his own, so no items is need. 



> Yes he can, he does in a number of times in the series Thanos and Annilation.



How far can he teleport?



> He also used his teleporter as a weapon against Champion, Champion was running towards Thanos who was standing still, Thanos teleported him from a distance.



that's because he had the teleporter already set up, can Thanos under his own power teleport without the use of an item?



> So i guess thats an easy way out for me, Thanos Teleports Superman into the sun multiple times untill superman is drained of energy,



Can Thanos teleport on his? How far can he teleport? Where are they fighting? They could be any where out in space, and Supes won't be getting teleported anywhere. Supes will Ko the guy if thanos even thinks of trying to grab him.



> teleports him out and makes him into a herald.



Or, Supes stops him, by putting a punch in his face. Can Thanos teleport without the use of items? How far can he teleport? 



> I guess teleporting a lump of Kyptonite into the battle field and shoving it down supermans throat would be too much?



Wow! You just keep adding abilities to Thanos don't you? Has Thanos ever did something like that? Would he even know about K-nite? Nope. And a lump of K-nite isn't enough to stop Supes now, he'll just walk right by it. He's gain a greater resistance to it now.



> Yes Eros DOES have fast reaction speeds, he did speed around Thanos evading his punches.



But ended up getting hit by someone that's way slower. he doesn't have fast reaction. 



> He tried to speed blitz Thanos and Failed. Just like superman would fail.



Superman isn't Ero's. He can fight and react at high speeds and take Thanos attacks. Supes will speedbiltz, and Thanos won't be able to counter. 



> Sorry Thanos would survive Supermans speed blitz and likely beat him in a straight brawl,



Sorry Thanos will get killed in a speedbiltz and would likely lose in a brawl against Supes.



> specially with shields etc.



Yeah, after the beating Supes give him, he'll most likely bring his shields for next time!




> Hell i've changed my mind, Thanos wins this battle 9/10.



You were thinking this from the beginning, even though it's completely wrong. Thanos loses the majority against Supes.



> Teleports Goku into space while his shield holds back superman,



Can Thanos teleport people under his own power? How far can he teleport them? He can't use shields or teleportation since he's not allowed to use items for this battle anyways.



> then deals with superman 1v1.



And lose.



> I think we aren't giving his intellect nearly enough credit right here. He has won fights against Galactus,




When was this? Did he beat Galactus under his own power? 



> Galactus times 2 (Omega), a Universe destroying threat, which was able to fight Galactus evenly, and steal from cosmics because of his planning skills.




Which was far out of Thanos power to defeat, it's why Thanos needed help to take him down.



> His mind is as powerful as any energy blast or muscle in his body.




Supes is very smart also, most of things he does he uses his intellect, don't underestimate him. 




> He'll come up with a way to win this,



And still lose. It's kind of hard to think of something when you're getting pounded on and is fighting against a being thats also very intelligent. Supes is also highly intelligent and has fought against beings that are very intelligent like Cyborg, Eradicator, Brainiac 13, and Darkseid. Supes has faced many that's very smart, not to mention he is highly intelligent if he was able to build the FOS on his own which has all types of tech in it. The guy even mimarized every language know to man. 

For those who don't understand how good Superman with prep can be or how smart he is. This is at his Fortress of Solitude. CRAZY weapons.







> even if he is weaker and slower than Supes and Goku (which I disagree with).



Well think he's way slower than Supes and Goku, but Supes durability and strength is up there with Thanos. 



> Even though he eventually lost, I doubt Supes or Goku can even come close to the power of Thanos.



thanos preped for that incounter against Galactus, again, he's not given that in this battle. And Supes is highly intelligent too, and has proven it plenty of times. 



> Thanos' vast intellect will be the deciding factor,




It won't be enough, since he's fighting against Superman who is a very intelligent and skill fighter. And Goku may be stupid, but when it comes to fighting, he uses his wits.



> not to mention all his cosmic capabilities.



Which Supes has faced mutiple times, and is also considered a cosmic being.


----------



## Orion (Dec 12, 2006)

regular supes is not a cosmic by any stretch he does not have the power to put thanos down,the whole comment on if thanos tried to get close supes would ko him shows you know nothing of thanos durability or you are being a complete fanboy,and thanos ALWAYS has his shields and teleporter its basic tech.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 12, 2006)

Pointless debating with you when you ignore logic and twist whatever words are said and throw it back in our faces.
For example i give you proof that Thanos has a fast reaction, you just disagree dispite me posting clear proof.
I wonder if you know your being just like the Dragonball Fanboys you hate so much at the moment.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 12, 2006)

> vlaaad12345 said:
> 
> 
> > regular supes is not a cosmic by any stretch
> ...


----------



## Bullet (Dec 12, 2006)

> Rice Ball said:
> 
> 
> > Pointless debating with you when you ignore logic and twist whatever words are said and throw it back in our faces.
> ...


----------



## Orion (Dec 12, 2006)

please let me know what attack supes has that is more powerful than odin,tyrant,galactus,or wm power gem thor because they didnt ko thanos.


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## Bullet (Dec 12, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> please let me know what attack supes has that is more powerful than odin,tyrant,galactus,or wm power gem thor because they didnt ko thanos.



Supes have strength great enough to destroy planets and shatter space/time, that's enough to put the hurting on Thanos. Odin wasn't going all out and tyrant pretty much played around with Thanos (Thanos went down and his strength wasn't good enough to even fase Tyrant anways, had to use an item to hurt Tyrant), and he never took a blasts from Galactus (he had his shields up remeber), Thor, Drax, surfer also is able to hurt Thanos, so Supes will be able to do the same. Please let me know how Thanos is going to be able to hit Supes, who is way to fast for him. For one punch Thanos throws, it will be dodged and Supes will counter with 100 hundreds more.


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## Orion (Dec 12, 2006)

thanos has hit people faster then him on several occasions supes isnt going to be able to speedblitz.


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## Bullet (Dec 12, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> thanos has hit people faster then him on several occasions supes isnt going to be able to speedblitz.



Thanos has never fought against someone with superspeed (able to fight at high speeds, bodily movement and reaction speeds) like Superman. When ever Thanos fought a speedster, he was easily biltz. Captain Marvel and Captain America was able to run circles around him, he couldn't do anything to stop them. Supes will speed will be to much.


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## Gooba (Dec 13, 2006)

Bullet said:


> Thanos has never fought against someone with superspeed (able to fight at high speeds, bodily movement and reaction speeds) like Superman. When ever Thanos fought a speedster, he was easily biltz. Captain Marvel and Captain America was able to run circles around him, he couldn't do anything to stop them. Supes will speed will be to much.


Look at Superman vs Thor, then look at Thor vs Thanos.  If Thor is able to fight Superman equally, that means he either is fast, or Superman is fighting slow against him like he would Thanos.


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## Vynjira (Dec 13, 2006)

Bullet said:


> Supes have strength great enough to destroy planets and shatter space/time, that's enough to put the hurting on Thanos.


Wrong, show me Current Supes shattering space/time. 





Bullet said:


> Odin wasn't going all out


Prove he wasn't, show us where Odin says "Gee Thanos don't you realise I'm not even trying? DESPITE the fact I want you dead but for some reason I can't kill you even when I could still go all out? Its Bullshit if your not gonna cop to that you need to stop debating because that proves you don't really know what Thanos is capable of.



Bullet said:


> and he never took a blasts from Galactus (he had his shields up remeber),


GO back a page where Galactus hit Thanos Twice see how Galactus notes "Very impressive I've never had to exert this much force to destroy a mere forcefield before" about 1 panel later what do we see Thanos with some interesting scratches that panels before he didn't have. So how did he get them if he wasn't hit?


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## Dr.Douchebag (Dec 13, 2006)

Hamaru said:


> Thanos fights with gods damn near on a daily basses. He also fights with Galactus (A guy who eats planets). Thanos IMO is too much for superman and goku. Here is some info on him. Also he has his rings.
> 
> Powers and Abilities
> 
> ...




You have to remember that despite those facts thanos has taken on people beyond his league (like tyrant and odin) and done fairly well or even stalemated them. 

Also does thanos have prep?.


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## Bullet (Dec 13, 2006)

> Gooba said:
> 
> 
> > Look at Superman vs Thor, then look at Thor vs Thanos.
> ...


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## Hamaru (Dec 13, 2006)

Cyborg Superman said:


> You have to remember that despite those facts thanos has taken on people beyond his league (like tyrant and odin) and done fairly well or even stalemated them.
> 
> Also does thanos have prep?.



yea, I mean he is fighting 2 people lol. Anyways about the whole speedster thing. Silver Surfer moves Fast as hell and also has super strength. He has fought with SS, and thor at the sametime! Supes would not be able to do that.


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## Bullet (Dec 13, 2006)

> Hamaru said:
> 
> 
> > yea, I mean he is fighting 2 people lol.
> ...


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## Orion (Dec 13, 2006)

superman and goku out of thanos league......lmfao wow either you really love supes or you really hate thanos.


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## Bullet (Dec 13, 2006)

> vlaaad12345 said:
> 
> 
> > superman and goku out of thanos league......
> ...


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## Orion (Dec 13, 2006)

its not that i cant stand it,i like supes more than thanos but thanos would dominate supes its that easy.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 13, 2006)

Me and Bullet have decided to to quit answering each other on this 
I think hes an extreme superman fanboy and he thinks i'm a extreme superman hater 

Good luck!


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## Bullet (Dec 13, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> its not that i cant stand it,i like supes more than thanos but thanos would dominate supes its that easy.



I like both characters, but Supes IMO, will win, I don't see Thanos beating an all out Superman the majority of the time. Thanos won't dominate anything he can't touch (he's really slow), someone who's just as durable as he is (Superman has plenty of durability feats), and someone who have strength (alot of strength feats)enough to hurt him (very bad).



> Me and Bullet have decided to to quit answering each other on this
> I think hes an extreme superman fanboy and he thinks i'm a extreme superman hater
> 
> Good luck!



The people that are fanboys are normally the ones that call other people fanboys because they're angry that their characters is fighting a losing battle and can't stand for people to go against their favorite character. Sort of like you. Supes wins IMO. Now you can finish being bitter Thanos fanboy (and Supes hater)! 

If you choose not to quote me anymore, should also not include my name in your posts also. It's rude and immature, especially when all it's showing is insults. Please stop it and grow up.


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## Orion (Dec 13, 2006)

thanos has much more impressive durability feats,has beatin the crap outta preety much every marvel ever including many of its heavy hitters on supes level,and has tagged speedsters several times.thanos went a few rounds with  wm power gem thor and got a bloody lip,for supes to ko thanos he would have to hit harder then thor and if you think regular post crisis supes is stronger than a wm power gem thor you are on drugs or something.


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## Bullet (Dec 13, 2006)

> thanos has much more impressive durability feats,




Supes have just as many impressive durability feats, plenty.



> has beatin the crap outta preety much every marvel ever including many of its heavy hitters on supes level,



Thanos has beaten most with prep time, not under his own power. He's Surfer, but he hasn't beaten Thor yet.



> and has tagged speedsters several times.



He has taged non-speedsters several times. Supes is a real speedster (he's way faster than Captian America), capable of fighting at high speeds, not just moving in flight speed. 





> thanos went a few rounds with wm power gem thor and got a bloody lip,



Yes, which means he lost. Supes fight beings that are on his level, and win. He's taken hits from very powerful beings on purpose plenty of times, because he's durable enough to take the attacks. Supes go a few rounds with people who uses his weakness against him almost a deaily bases. K-nite and Red sun blasts are the most devastating attacks towards Superman than almost anything else. He's very durable. Even reacenly, he took a blasts that could shatter planets, and he wasn't even fased by them.

Supes using his head along with his other powers. Here he measures the guy speed, sound frequncy and just pretty much own this guy. this guy was just beating on Supes, and Supes took the hits on purpose, just to figure out what was going on in the situation. This guy is way above class 100, and quit powerful. 














> for supes to ko thanos he would have to hit harder then thor



How strong is WM Thor? Normal Thor is capable of hurting Thanos, Supes, who can destroy planets and shatter time/space with his punches will put alot of hurtting on Thanos; no matter how durable you think he is, he's not brushing off any of Supes attacks. Especially when every punch Thanos throw will be dodged and counter back from Superman will a 100 more.



> and if you think regular post crisis supes is stronger than a wm power gem thor you are on drugs or something.



Do you have any feats of WM Thor with the power gem, besides him just beating people up? Post-crisis Supes hasn't shown a limit in strength yet, but base on what he has shown with his strength being able to shatter time/space and destroy planets with his strength, his strength feats are better than Thors right now.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 13, 2006)

> Yes, which means he lost. Supes go a few rounds with people who uses his weakness against him almost a deaily bases. K-nite and Red sun blasts are the most devastating attacks towards Superman than almost anything else. He's very durable. *Even reacenly, he took a blasts that could shatter planets, and he wasn't even fased by them.*



That I missed. When was that?


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 13, 2006)

Bullet said:


> The people that are fanboys are normally the ones that call other people fanboys because they're angry that their characters is fighting a losing battle and can't stand for people to go against their favorite character. Sort of like you. Supes wins IMO. Now you can finish being bitter Thanos fanboy (and Supes hater)!
> 
> If you choose not to quote me anymore, should also not include my name in your posts also. It's rude and immature, especially when all it's showing is insults. Please stop it and grow up.



I thought i'd explain why, no lies in my post at all is there.
I think you are an extreme superman fanboy, and you think i'm Anti superman with every post. Think what you like, but your (once again) the one that replies with the insults.
I explained the rest in PM's to you.

Moving on topic-

Thanos didn't lose to WM thor, he clearly won that battle, i posted the whole battle in a previous post. Thanos has tagged speedsters like Eros, Captain marvel, Thor, Surfer etc.


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## Bullet (Dec 13, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> That I missed. When was that?



Energy to destroy a planet? Not a problem for the man of steel who handles it with ease.






Lex was using Krptonian tech that was powerful enough to destroy planets.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 13, 2006)

> Rice Ball said:
> 
> 
> > I thought i'd explain why, no lies in my post at all is there.
> ...


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 13, 2006)

> Energy to destroy a planet? Not a problem for the man of steel who handles it with ease.



This one, I'm aware of.



> Lex was using Krptonian tech that was powerful enough to destroy planets.



Death Star esque?


----------



## Bullet (Dec 13, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> This one, I'm aware of.
> 
> 
> 
> Death Star esque?



What's wrong?


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 13, 2006)

Its nice to know its worth my time trying to reason with you. Troll more.


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## Bullet (Dec 13, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Its nice to know its worth my time trying to reason with you. Troll more.



I'm not the one trolling, you are. I've stated my reasons why Supes will win.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 13, 2006)

The ship's origins is detailed in Superman #653.

Dru-Zod's flagship devastated planets using self-replicating technology (from the planet's own matter). It's like waging continuous war on the planet and its inhabitants, due to the nature of Sunstone. Entire planets were devastated like this.

However, it didn't destroy the planet ala Death Star. Like destroying the entire planet in the movie. That's what I had in mind.


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## Bullet (Dec 13, 2006)

Superman #653. Maybe I have that issue already, I to see, if not I'll go get it some time later.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 13, 2006)

Bullet said:


> I'm not the one trolling, you are. I've stated my reasons why Supes will win.



Yeah your last post rocked.
And you failed to defend your statements, your ONLY defending remark was superman can speedblitz Thanos (which has been dismissed). You didn't bother responding to any of Thanos tech advantage (like Teleporting Superman to the red sun instantly).


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 13, 2006)

It's part 7 of the Superman OYL storyline "Up, Up, and Away". The entire Superman OYL storyline should be available in TPB format by now.

I recommend it. It's a refreshing read.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 13, 2006)

> Rice Ball said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah your last post rocked.
> ...


----------



## Bullet (Dec 13, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> It's part 7 of the Superman OYL storyline "Up, Up, and Away". The entire Superman OYL storyline should be available in TPB format by now.
> 
> I recommend it. It's a refreshing read.




That's the one where Supes is scanning the ships structure right? I have that one. The scan I've shown comes from that.


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## Orion (Dec 13, 2006)

the difference between thanos and supes having items is that thanos ALWAYS has his shield and teleporter,and you have still not proven supes could speedblitz thanos hes fought  a couple speedsters and caught them you can keep choosing to disregard this but that doesnt change the fact that it happened.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 13, 2006)

> vlaaad12345 said:
> 
> 
> > the difference between thanos and supes having items is that thanos ALWAYS has his shield and teleporter,
> ...


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 13, 2006)

> Superman can speedbiltz Thanos (which havn't been dismissed). Has Thanos ever shown to be able to use superspeed? Nope. You're trying to give him an ability he's never had. Get over it.



He has faught people with superspeed, like Gamora, Nova, Eros, Drax, Captain Marvel, Silver surfer and Thor.
If he can tag them he can tag Superman, he also dodged Surfer traveling at Hyperspeed (thousands of times the speed of light).

Been tried and failed.



> I did respond to that. I said if Thanos gets to use items, Supes should be able to use them also. I ask you have Thanos ever just teleported someone from any where? Where are they fighting? How would Thanos know where a red sun is? How far can he teleport with the items? None of this has been answered, and it's pretty much useless since Thanos isn't using items to help him fight. Again, Supes isn't stupid and he's not just going to let someone have their way with him, like just teleporting him away from the battlefield.



Thanos has his teleporter as a part of his costume (like the GL's ring). He would use it in a fight if he wasn't holding back.
Marvel have said the crossover comic is canon, Thanos isn't dumb, he has a great deal of knowledge about marvel heros hes never faced and knowing his character, gaining knowledge on superman wouldn't be a problem.

As for not using items, Green Lantern gets to use his ring in fights i don't see why Thanos should be restricted.


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## Bullet (Dec 13, 2006)

> Rice Ball said:
> 
> 
> > He has faught people with superspeed,
> ...


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## Rice Ball (Dec 13, 2006)

If Thor doesn't have Superspeed, then Superman doesn't.
The silver surfer has faught against the runner, you know the cosmic with the space gem. 
Eros flew through space at a speed faster than light speed and went straight into a attack on Thanos circling him at high speed (JUST LIKE SUPERMAN DOES!!!)before Thanos tagged him.
Captain Marvel has is a fast person who has faught heralds etc without problems.

At no point have i said Thanos has super speed, only he has the reaction/abilities to combat someone with super speed, take the Captain America battle, he is alot more agile than Thanos, so Thanos used his powers to equalise the battle.

I hope this dispels these 'Myths' about Thanos.



> AGain, those are items, if Thanos can use items, so can Supes. supes will get the mother box and and take a sundip.



I think we should get a mod on this forum to decide this, is Thanos allowed something he has access 100% of the time as its a part of his costume? or Shall we ban it and also ban the Green Lanterns ring, because it is the same as that. Is Dr Doom not allowed his armour? Or Iron man not allowed his suit?.

Thanos equipment is a part of the character just like his intellect.



> Gaining knowledge on Superman is using prep, Thanos isn't given prep for this battle. And crossovers aren't used (you're starting to get desperate).



Not if the character already has knowledge of the enemy, like Lex Luthor already has knowledge of superman. Its not unlikely that Thanos knew everything about the crossover events and also took the oppotunity to learn more.
Oh the crossover is Canon, for the last time, insult it if you want but Marvel/DC stroyline writers > you.

Edit- You've taken too long to reply. I'm going to bed.


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## Orion (Dec 13, 2006)

so since im a supes hater and rice ball is a supes hater does that make everyone who said thanos would win a supes hater?and he has fought super speed people,the teleporter and shields are part of his fucking costume.


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## Vynjira (Dec 13, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> so since im a supes hater and rice ball is a supes hater does that make everyone who said thanos would win a supes hater?and he has fought super speed people,the teleporter and shields are part of his fucking costume.



Yup I must be a supes hater >.>; I clearly act like one....


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## Orion (Dec 13, 2006)

obviously since you have supes droping supergirl your a supes hater.


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## Vynjira (Dec 13, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> obviously since you have supes droping supergirl your a supes hater.



I should fix that... I might look like a Supes fangirl.

EDIT: Is this better? lol


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## Bullet (Dec 13, 2006)

> Rice Ball said:
> 
> 
> > If Thor doesn't have Superspeed, then Superman doesn't.
> ...


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## Vynjira (Dec 13, 2006)

Bullet said:


> Those are items, so they're not apart of his powers.


Even tho as his character he is always using items? Thanos is a tech guy granted he has vast powers but taking away the fact he always uses tech to his advantage and Supes RARELY does Thanos gets his standard equip, you can't just un-equip shit because they make him more powerful than you want him to be.


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## Bullet (Dec 13, 2006)

Again, if Thanos is given tech for this battle, Supes should be also be able to use items too and sun dip. It's that simple. You can't just add something on a character and not the other. It should go both ways.

You just can't equip stuff on characters so he can have a better chance at winning, because they can't win under their own power.


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## Vynjira (Dec 13, 2006)

Bullet said:


> Again, if Thanos is given tech for this battle, Supes should be also be able to use items too and sun dip. It's that simple. You can't just add something on a character and not the other. It should go both ways.



Except for the fact you can count how many times Superman has used high level tech/items on 2 hands, Thanos you could borrow everyone who has posted's hands and still not have enough as Thanos is always using items. Fact and point, Thanos with items is equivelent to Batman with utility belt. Superman with items is equivelent to Batman with Power Ring. Batman NORMALLY has Utility belt, he doesn't ever really have a power ring now does he?

Its not adding because its part of his damn costume, not like Superman which is oh quick I need a plot twist to save the day!

Its Thanos VS Superman(Current Incarnation). Their not stripping nekkid for the fight, their simply fighting with their STANDARD abilities/skills/equipment.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 14, 2006)

Thanos normally has his suit, which has his interdimentional teleporter, shield and other tech built in.
As others have said, Thanos items are a part of his character and costume, and should be allowed for any battle. You aren't the person to decide this.

Surfer thought against the other eldars early in volumn 3 of SS, when there were 8 of them not 5. I don't like repeating myself because Thanos HAS fauight against people with super travel speed and combat speed.

Flight speed or not, Thanos countered someone moving beyond the speed of light. Check IG4 again, Surfer tried to grab it and Thanos evaded the attack, you can see him looking at Surfer after the surfer says he failed. As for needing both, Thanos stands before you as someone who doesn't need both, he obviously has the reaction to deal with superman.

You missed what i posted about the Thanos v Captain America battle, Thanos showed in that battle he didn't need to chase captain around, he could just use other powers to nullify an enemy with speed.

You seem to be mistaken (again) Crossovers are allowed if they are canon to the MU and DCU. Which this one is. Banning crossovers would be plain stupid, you trying to say the events of Infinate Crisis isn't canon?


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## Bullet (Dec 14, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> Except for the fact you can count how many times Superman has used high level tech/items on 2 hands, Thanos you could borrow everyone who has posted's hands and still not have enough as Thanos is always using items. Fact and point, Thanos with items is equivelent to Batman with utility belt. Superman with items is equivelent to Batman with Power Ring. Batman NORMALLY has Utility belt, he doesn't ever really have a power ring now does he?
> 
> Its not adding because its part of his damn costume, not like Superman which is oh quick I need a plot twist to save the day!
> 
> Its Thanos VS Superman(Current Incarnation). Their not stripping nekkid for the fight, their simply fighting with their STANDARD abilities/skills/equipment.



Again, if Thanos is given tech for this battle, Supes should be also be able to use items too and sun dip. It's that simple. You can't just add something on a character and not the other. It should go both ways.

You just can't equip stuff on characters so he can have a better chance at winning, because they can't win under their own power.


Did he have his equipmet on when he fought Thor twice? Nope. Did he have his equipement on when he fought Surfer? Nope. You can't assume that he has it on all the time.


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## Bullet (Dec 14, 2006)

> Rice Ball said:
> 
> 
> > Thanos normally has his suit, which has his interdimentional teleporter, shield and other tech built in.
> ...


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## Rice Ball (Dec 14, 2006)

You don't seem to understand, you said it yourself the GL isn't the GL without his ring. Thanos isn't Thanos without his costume.

Show me an item superman has on him 100% of the time and i'll allow it, like i allow the tech Thanos has in his costume.

Your just addin rules to a lost discussion.

I'll not repeat myself about the speed issue and you have failed to answer them to a satisfactory degree. You also planely ignore half the points i raise because you can't answer the, the surfer has faught against a super speedster (much much faster than Superman) and Thanos has beaten Surfer. Since Thanos (so you claim, which is a lie) hasn't throught against a speedster before, this is the closest thing to proof.

Thanos wins via mindrape, Trasmutation, teleportation, straight brawl, superman not being able to piece his shields.



> Thanos hasn't fought against people with superspeed.



So you admit you can't prove shit. That saves alot of time.


That crossover is canon, cry more, send letters to the writers, but its canon as far as Marvel and DC and this forum is concerned.


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## Bullet (Dec 14, 2006)

> You don't seem to understand, you said it yourself the GL isn't the GL without his ring. Thanos isn't Thanos without his costume.



GL's don't have powers without their rings, Thanos has powers without the use of items.



> Show me an item superman has on him 100% of the time and i'll allow it, like i allow the tech Thanos has in his costume.



Thanos doesn't have items on all the time, so it's not needed. And Supes doesn't need items unless Thanos is given items for this battle.



> Your just addin rules to a lost discussion.



You're adding rules. Like giving Thanos equipment.



> I'll not repeat myself about the speed issue and you have failed to answer them to a satisfactory degree.



I killed every one of your speed issues. Thanos don't have superspeed.



> You also planely ignore half the points i raise because you can't answer the,



I answered all your points.



> the surfer has faught against a super speedster (much much faster than Superman)



In flight speed, not fighting reflexive speeds like Supes.




> and Thanos has beaten Surfer.



I know this.




> Since Thanos (so you claim, which is a lie) hasn't throught against a speedster before, this is the closest thing to proof.



Surfer doesn't have bodily movement, he can only fly fast, just like Thor. Supes whole body can move at superspeeds. Thanos has no superspeed.




> Thanos wins via mindrape,



Supes have storng resistance to mind attacks, he has T-vo to counter it, and Thanos has never shown an offensive mind attack.



> Trasmutation,



Supes can't be transmuted.



> teleportation,



He can't teleport without the use of items. But if he could, Supes has fought plenty that could teleport.




> straight brawl,



Thanos will lose in a brawl. Supes will speedbiltz him.



> superman not being able to piece his shields.



Thanos doesn't have shields without items. Even if he did, Supes is not stupid enough to just pound on them, he'll wait for Thanos to put them. 



> So you admit you can't prove shit. That saves alot of time.



I don't admit anything, you havn't proven that Thanos have superspeed.




> That crossover is canon, cry more, send letters to the writers, but its canon as far as Marvel and DC and this forum is concerned.



Crossovers aren't cannon.



> If Thor doesn't have Superspeed, then Superman doesn't.



How did you come to this? Supes has shown superspeed and has superspeed, Thor hasn't and don't have superspeed, we know this since he was easily speedbiltz by Spiderman and Mongoose. So Supes has Superspeed, and Thor don't.

Has Thor or Surfer ever shown speeds like this in combat or having very high thinking speeds.

Superman catching bullets with little effort. Thor needs to use his hammer to block hand gun fire, and have trouble doing so. Supes does it with little effort against machine gun fire.

Woman after four years of meth

Here's Superman reading at high speeds. Which proves how fast his thinking speed is. This is before his recent upgrade, where his brain has gotten even faster. Can Thor do this? Has he ever shown to have this ability?

Woman after four years of meth

Has Thor or Surfer ever show to be able to fight at high speeds (using fast bodily movement). Using after images and vibrating intangible (or invisible) with their speed.

Woman after four years of meth

Link removed

Woman after four years of meth

Has Thor ever shown to be able to move that he's not seen by others. Here's Superman making a "Bat" symbol out of a few black wires and slapping it on a reporter's chest AFTER Lois openend up his shirt, and nobody could even perceive him.

superzooi.com

Everything on Supes operates at superspeed, he's not just able to fly very fast like Thor and Surfer, but is able to speed up every part of his body.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 14, 2006)

I'm glad you show your ignorance.
While most of the Marvel v DC ones aren't, this one is.
That crossover is canon, being a little guidl whining about it isn't doing you any good.

If no one in the Marvel U has superspeed (in your clueless oppinion) and Thanos has never faught one, or anyone who has faught one (HELLO RUNNER!) How can you prove Thanos will lose to a speedblitz? You can't. And i've shown he can stand up to the closest thing (in your clueless oppinion).

You haven't read Thanos have you? Thanos uses his psychic abilities 3 times as an attack, once against Galacus, then again against beyonder and Fallen one.

Prove to me superman would survive a Psychic attack from Thanos? Show me someone as strong as Thanos trying to use a Psychic attack on superman and it totally failing to effect him.

Prove to me superman would resist transmution from someone of Thano's level.


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## Orion (Dec 14, 2006)

thanos has fought people at super speeds,he has the strength to put supes down,he does have his shields and teleporter on him at all times its part of his costume,and thanos has about 10x the durability of supes hes not going to be put down,u can keep denying the facts all you want but you are just making yourself look like a idiot.


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## Bullet (Dec 14, 2006)

> Rice Ball said:
> 
> 
> > I'm glad you show your ignorance.
> ...


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## Orion (Dec 14, 2006)

so i guess every other person in this thread is wrong right?since everyone said thanos would win i guess we are all supes haters.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 14, 2006)

BTW, does anyone have the scan of Eros blitzing Thanos?


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## huey253 (Dec 14, 2006)

Thanos would get his socks rocked


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## Bullet (Dec 14, 2006)

> vlaaad12345 said:
> 
> 
> > so i guess every other person in this thread is wrong right?
> ...


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## Orion (Dec 14, 2006)

what evidence if people like power gem wm thor tyrant galactus and odin didnt knock thanos out how the fuck is supes going to manage.


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## Orion (Dec 14, 2006)

what evidence if people like power gem wm thor tyrant galactus and odin didnt knock thanos out how the fuck is supes going to manage.


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## Bullet (Dec 14, 2006)

> vlaaad12345 said:
> 
> 
> > what evidence if people like power gem wm thor tyrant galactus and odin didnt knock thanos out
> ...


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## Orion (Dec 14, 2006)

yeah he fled....with a bloody lip whoopde fuckin do,even odin not serious with gungir is more damage than supes is going to dish out,wow thanos has like half of morgs energy that musta really boosted him alot /endsarcasm,to be able to stand up to a beast like tyrant at all is a feat in itself,thanos shields are part of his stuff he has all the time,so what you think that supes woulda survived that blast from galactus or that fight with tyrant?


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## Bullet (Dec 14, 2006)

> vlaaad12345 said:
> 
> 
> > yeah he fled....with a bloody lip whoopde fuckin do,
> ...


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## Dr.Douchebag (Dec 14, 2006)

Bullet said:


> He got speedbiltz by Runner (in flight speed)






> Prove to me that Thanos have offensive psychic attacks first? Supes has survived Darkseid psychic attacks, Brainac's, Eradicator's, Manchester Black, Eclipso and plenty more. Supes fought off psychic attacks plenty of times. And now that he has T-VO, it's going to be even harder to use on him.


Against galan on a psychic plane



Against the beyonder or 'maker' 



Against the fallen one


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## Orion (Dec 14, 2006)

omfg how many people have to say this THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUPES HAVING ITEMS AND THANOS HAVING HIS SHIELD AND TELEPORTER IS THAT HE HAS IT ALL THE FUCKING TIME.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 14, 2006)

You claim your not ignorant with that dumbass post.
Read the series Thanos, he attacks both beyonder and Galactus with Psychic attacks.

Did you notice in both the fight against Runner, Captain America AND Captain Marvel. Thanos wins!
Dispite them attacking him with speed, he still beats them.

Funny stuff.
Don't spout ignorant crap and lies about a character you know nothing about.

@ Endless Mike

Happens in Avengers : Celestial Quest. Book 3 or 4 when the titans try to stop Thanos.


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## Bullet (Dec 14, 2006)

> Rice Ball said:
> 
> 
> > You claim your not ignorant with that dumbass post.
> ...


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## Bullet (Dec 14, 2006)

Cyborg Superman said:


> Against galan on a psychic plane
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Show the whole battles, not just the end parts, because the scans aren't really telling anything.


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## Orion (Dec 14, 2006)

so youve never read the thanos series?


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## Bullet (Dec 14, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> so youve never read the thanos series?




Yes I have, I have the Thanos Quest books. The people that's posting the scans aren't showing everything, still havn't proven that Thanos have offensive mind attacks. He's only shown to be able to mind control Fallen One after he was KOed. So I'm still waiting.

And again, like I said, Supes is very resistant to psychic attacks and with T-Vo (reality warpping powers and such), it's not going to happen.


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## Orion (Dec 14, 2006)

he used mind attacks on galactus and beyonder in the scans.....how does that not prove he has mind attacks.


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## Bullet (Dec 14, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> he used mind attacks on galactus and beyonder in the scans.....how does that not prove he has mind attacks.




He didn't sue mind attacks on Galactus (this is easily seen by the cords connecting them, not Thanos powers) or Beyounder, who he just beat in a energy blasts battle, he didn't use mind attacks. Read the books for your self before believing everything you see in scans with them explaning it in full detail (he's not showing everything that went on).


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## Vynjira (Dec 14, 2006)

Bullet said:


> Show the whole battles, not just the end parts, because the scans aren't really telling anything.



Right, not that you would understand whats happening anyway.. Fight with Thor case and point, Thanos said "I grow weary of this" NOT "OH SHIT I'M GONNA DIE!!!" Heres a thought he didn't run from Odin he stood up to Tyrant he stood up to Galactus. Yet him calmly walking away is described by you as him "Running Away". So any time Goku turned his back on Frieza he was "Running Away".. no he just realised the fight was gonna last too long if he didn't re-think a quicker solution. Last time I checked when someone has intent to kill their not holding back Odin was ready to do what he needed to Kill Thanos. 

Argue til your blue, unless you can prove Odin didn't want to kill Thanos then your arguement doesn't mean anything. Same with Thor, Prove that he was desperate in any way shape or form.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 14, 2006)

> And again, like I said, Supes is very resistant to psychic attacks and with T-Vo (reality warpping powers and such), it's not going to happen.



Ah, Torquasm-Vo. However, as learned as Superman is, he's still a student, last I read. However, Manchester Black is a freaking powerful telepath, as well are Fernus and Despero. Max Lord had time.

But yes, Torquasm-Vo can be employed here. It's one of Superman's lesser known and depicted powers.



> He didn't sue mind attacks on Galactus (this is easily seen by the cords connecting them, not Thanos powers)



Thanos met up with Galactus on a "pre-arranged mental plane" courtesy from Moondragon.

The cords isn't external from Thanos. The 'cords', if one can call them that, is a direct offense from Thanos on plane. It just manifested in the form of 'cords'. Thanos attempted to gain Galactus' knowledge by attempting to become one with him.

Thanos #3.

Agaisnt Maker, she's the Beyonder, or Kubik, donning mortal form. As for why, no one really knows.

Thanos 'made a whammy' against her head. Took her mind, according to Skreets. However, since Maker is in mortal form, who's to say how much was she aware of the nature of her powers. Not to mention, she's hysterical, being new to being mortal.

Thanos #10.

or Beyounder, who he just beat in a energy blasts battle, he didn't use mind attacks. Read the books for your self before believing everything you see in scans with them explaning it in full detail (he's not showing everything that went on).


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## Rice Ball (Dec 14, 2006)

Read the series 'Thanos' it shows him using offensive Psychic powers against Galactus, beyonder and Fallen one.
Cyborg Superman even posted scans of it

'Thanos' and 'Thanos Quest' are very different.

Is jplaya your alt account or something?


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 14, 2006)

> Read the series 'Thanos' it shows him using offensive Psychic powers against Galactus, beyonder and Fallen one.



Against Galactus, yes, on a mental plane.

Against Maker. . . well, due to her 'immature' character as a cosmic-now-mortal, it's hard to say whether she was able to defend herself as such.

Fallen One was unconscious when Thanos cosmic-lobotomized him.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 14, 2006)

Yeah, but Attacking Galactus on the mental plane is still a very impressive feat. Would have been interesting if Thanos succeded and got control fo Galactus.
Annihlation would have been alot more interesting.

Unknown is right, it could have been very difficult, but it wasn't shown, only the result.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 14, 2006)

> Yeah, but Attacking Galactus on the mental plane is still a very impressive feat. Would have been interesting if Thanos succeded and got control fo Galactus.



Understandable, but I don't think Thanos can directly succeed in such an offense against Galactus of all cosmics.

Hungry, well, that's most likely possible.



> Annihlation would have been alot more interesting.
> 
> Unknown is right, it could have been very difficult, but it wasn't shown, only the result.



Understandable.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 14, 2006)

Didn't he have Moondragon's help with that?


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Dec 14, 2006)

...
Assuming this is Thanos with absolutly no tech of any kind, well

*What is the limit of damage thanos can take without his forcefields?* because I know for his force field's Galactus uber Clone max blast was the max. I still don't know without though. That series with where he owned Tyrant didn't clarify it either. ( Though I've still yet to finish reading the Thanos series. I think i'm on the one where he goes to some planet offering help.) Anyway, Thanos would need to be able to take Goku max power blast + Superman firing max power heat vision.

*How fast are Thanos attacks and are they near or at lightspeed?* (I don't recall his attacking speed being at that level or shown to be at that level in the entire Infinity saga. ( although, I suppose that dodging surfer taking the glove off bit is reaction speed... but he had the glove, so it makes me wonder. )

*Does Thanos have psychic abilties to mind rape Superman and Goku? *Although in Goku's case even if Thanos does have psychic abilties it is not certain he can mind rape goku. This is because Babidi was able to do "Martial man hunter worldwide telepath talking" and also blow up the heads of those human listening if he so choose to. Yet, as you can see he obviously couldn't offensively psychically take out the Goku or the db cast for that matter. If he could have why not do so?

--
maybe all this was finally answer in annihaltion, but after the individual mini series, off which I only read SS and Skrull, and after issue 1 of  annihlation, I simply lost interest. ..


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 14, 2006)

> Didn't he have Moondragon's help with that?



Moondragon arranged the mental plane for Thanos and Galactus to converse on.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 14, 2006)

> How fast are Thanos attacks and are they near or at lightspeed? (I don't recall his attacking speed being at that level or shown to be at that level in the entire Infinity saga. ( although, I suppose that dodging surfer taking the glove off bit is reaction speed... but he had the glove, so it makes me wonder. )



However, his cosmic senses / sensory input was dimmed. He barely avoided the Surfer's attempt.



> Does Thanos have psychic abilties to mind rape Superman and Goku? Although in Goku's case even if Thanos does have psychic abilties it is not certain he can mind rape goku. This is because Babidi was able to do "Martial man hunter worldwide telepath talking" and also blow up the heads of those human listening if he so choose to. Yet, as you can see he obviously couldn't offensively psychically take out the Goku or the db cast for that matter. If he could have why not do so?



I haven't seen Thanos employ offensive TP abilities in the heat of battle though.

As for Babidi, I was aware that he could only 'blow up' those who were wicked.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 14, 2006)

I only stated Psychic abilities as one of his abilities.
I would call using his abilities in battle with Kosmos 'The heat of battle tho ) 

I think his original plan was to get an insight into Galactus's odd behavour (Galactus only eats when hes hungry, he had already ate one planet in the Rigal system, why was he still there)

Your right about Thanos tanking Omega's blast, he was said to have twice Galactus's raw power, and he hit Thanos dead on. Its between that and Odins spear attack that was more than likely the strongest.

Talking about Goku, do you guys consider him a factor in this battle? Is he strong enough to have a good shot at Thanos or is supes the one real enemy?


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 14, 2006)

He can make a really really big spiritbomb!


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## Orion (Dec 14, 2006)

i really hope your being sarcastic because that would litterally commiting suicide,stoping movement equals power cosmic blasts in the face.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 14, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> i really hope your being sarcastic because that would litterally commiting suicide,stoping movement equals power cosmic blasts in the face.



What do you think?


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## Vynjira (Dec 14, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Talking about Goku, do you guys consider him a factor in this battle? Is he strong enough to have a good shot at Thanos or is supes the one real enemy?



I would say to ignore Goku wouldn't be a good idea if Goku layed into him it would definatly hurt his chances of winning if he has to fight Supes too.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 14, 2006)

They dance fuse into Kakaro-el!


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## Rice Ball (Dec 14, 2006)

Hehe for a spirit bomb it would take at least 60 minutes of deep breathing. While Thanos looks on in assumement, then steals the power.

"King Kai what should i do?"
"Dunno Goku, you really messed this battle up tbh."


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 14, 2006)

> I only stated Psychic abilities as one of his abilities.
> I would call using his abilities in battle with Kosmos 'The heat of battle tho )



I would disagree. Mutually conversing with your opponent about her identity doesn't count as 'in the heat of battle'.



> I think his original plan was to get an insight into Galactus's odd behavour (Galactus only eats when hes hungry, he had already ate one planet in the Rigal system, why was he still there)



I understood he was there because he was in the midst of devising the alternate means for his sustenance.



> Your right about Thanos tanking Omega's blast, he was said to have twice Galactus's raw power, and he hit Thanos dead on. Its between that and Odins spear attack that was more than likely the strongest.



Infinity Abyss #6, yep. 3 personal force fields and his armour, and a sizeable crator.



> Talking about Goku, do you guys consider him a factor in this battle? Is he strong enough to have a good shot at Thanos or is supes the one real enemy?



I consider him a factor. He is of some power, and is an extra body. He and Superman could be more effective as a team.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 14, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Hehe for a spirit bomb it would take at least 60 minutes of deep breathing. While Thanos looks on in assumement, then steals the power.
> 
> "King Kai what should i do?"
> "Dunno Goku, you really messed this battle up tbh."



But Thanos isn't pure of heart! The energy will hurt him!


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## Rice Ball (Dec 14, 2006)

> I would disagree. Mutually conversing with your opponent about her identity doesn't count as 'in the heat of battle'.



I guess not  It could of turned into a pretty hot battle if he pissed her off again tho.



> I understood he was there because he was in the midst of devising the alternate means for his sustenance.



But before meeting him, Thanos didn't know that 



> Infinity Abyss #6, yep. 3 personal force fields and his armour, and a sizeable crator.



The line 'Spiderman Now!' still makes me cringe. I dunno if i should be please he managed to find a job for spiderman against a super cosmic or be embarrised for the writers to have spiderman 'Webbing' Omega


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 14, 2006)

> I guess not  It could of turned into a pretty hot battle if he pissed her off again tho.



Maybe she'll be active again in Annihilation. . .



> But before meeting him, Thanos didn't know that



True.



> The line 'Spiderman Now!' still makes me cringe. I dunno if i should be please he managed to find a job for spiderman against a super cosmic or be embarrised for the writers to have spiderman 'Webbing' Omega



Ditto.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Dec 14, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> I only stated Psychic abilities as one of his abilities.
> I would call using his abilities in battle with Kosmos 'The heat of battle tho )
> 
> I think his original plan was to get an insight into Galactus's odd behavour (Galactus only eats when hes hungry, he had already ate one planet in the Rigal system, why was he still there)
> ...



I still say Goku = Superman and throughout the entire Goku Vs Superman thread, though I didn't read it all obviously, I saw little that completly desuades this thinking. By equal I mean they would fight each other relatively euqally and not that they are equal in abilties and junk. So yeah, I consider Goku  as much a factor as superman in this fight. However, I really am quite bored of "debating db" at this point. I wanna talk about naruto now...

@Comic book guy- you were mistaken. He blows up the head of a guy who was muttering about him. This was done without a mark, and while he was broadcasting hsi thought to the entire world.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 14, 2006)

Yet it's been consistently demonstrated that Superman is stronger, faster, smarter, and more durable than Goku.

I still maintain that Superman could defeat hundreds of Gokus simultaneously.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 14, 2006)

Let's agree to disagree with regards to Superman vs. Goku.

Right now, the topic is at hand.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Dec 14, 2006)

and I still maintain that this "consitently demonstrated" is and only has benn done from your and some other perpestive; wherein feats, cumlative feats, and aspects of db, are taken in one way as oppossed to another.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 14, 2006)

Well leaving the Goku v Supes alone.
If Goku was in this battle, what would be his best strategy? Power up to Super Saiyan 3 and battle at this high power for a short ammount of time or just Super Saiyan 2 for the whole battle.

What do you think think the effect if a 10x Kamahamaha wave would be on Thanos, either at SSJ2 or SSJ3?
Those cost goku alot of energy, they would have to do serious damage and goku's power gets depleted too fast.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 14, 2006)

> But Thanos isn't pure of heart! The energy will hurt him!



True, but Thanos' mind and body accliminated to the HOTU.



> @Comic book guy- you were mistaken. He blows up the head of a guy who was muttering about him. This was done without a mark, and while he was broadcasting hsi thought to the entire world.



Ah. I stand corrected.


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## Orion (Dec 14, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Well leaving the Goku v Supes alone.
> If Goku was in this battle, what would be his best strategy? Power up to Super Saiyan 3 and battle at this high power for a short ammount of time or just Super Saiyan 2 for the whole battle.
> 
> What do you think think the effect if a 10x Kamahamaha wave would be on Thanos, either at SSJ2 or SSJ3?
> Those cost goku alot of energy, they would have to do serious damage and goku's power gets depleted too fast.



goku doesnt have 10x kamehameha thats was ssj4 which isnt canon.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 14, 2006)

The spirit bomb doesn't just draw 'good' energy.
It also draws evil energy, for example it drew it off normal humans.



vlaaad12345 said:


> goku doesnt have 10x kamehameha thats was ssj4 which isnt canon.



Oh my bad. Just the max one he can do at those levels then


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 14, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> True, but Thanos' mind and body accliminated to the HOTU.



What does that have to do with the spirit bomb hurting Thanos?


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## Rice Ball (Dec 14, 2006)

Technically the 616 marvel universe is a part of Thanos 
Thanos might be pure!


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## Orion (Dec 14, 2006)

Gai said:


> What does that have to do with the spirit bomb hurting Thanos?



he has a habit of  taking on energies that should kill him and lives,besides the spirit bomb isnt getting off anyways soon as goku tries to make one he gets a blast of pc or thanos-vision.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 14, 2006)

> What does that have to do with the spirit bomb hurting Thanos?



You said that due to Thanos' nature, the Spirit Bomb would be effective against him.

Although I agree that Thanos' will be hurt from it, that's probably due to the 'good hearted' nature of the attack.

Thanos dove right into the HOTU and forced himself to acclimate to it to its entirety, whereas the Celestial Order and Akenhaten only possessed portions of it.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 14, 2006)

The events in 'The End' really are under rated, it was one hell of an achivement.

Do you think Thanos can absorb other enemy types like he did to the HOTU, for example heat vision or cosmic energy blasts (surfer)?


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 14, 2006)

> The events in 'The End' really are under rated, it was one hell of an achivement.



Question: Are they canon? Although the Thanos series depict it so, the writer of Annihilation disagrees.



> Do you think Thanos can absorb other enemy types like he did to the HOTU, for example heat vision or cosmic energy blasts (surfer)?



I wouldn't say he can universally absorb all energies.

The HOTU was just sitting there, in its entirety.

Heat vision and cosmic energy are used offensively by Superman and the cosmics.

If Thanos really had the ability to absorb such a wide range of energies, he would have already done so by now, and most offenses of the like would have been rendered redundant long ago.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 14, 2006)

I'm not sure.
They are mentioned in 'Thanos' and 'Annihilation' directly follows that series with the events in that series as Canon.
I also read that interview and was a little shocked, nothing really was changed in the series so there's no reason to retcon it really.


If thanos saw a large buildup of energy of universal (like a spirit bomb that hasn't been sent yet) do you think he'd be able to absorb it?

Btw if anyone wants to read a few Thanos comics check this thread-
officially too good to be true

Links might be still alive


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 14, 2006)

> I'm not sure.
> They are mentioned in 'Thanos' and 'Annihilation' directly follows that series with the events in that series as Canon.
> I also read that interview and was a little shocked, nothing really was changed in the series so there's no reason to retcon it really.



Indeed. Recently though, I've heard it's back into continuity, but I have yet to find a concrete source.

If The End is indeed into continuity, then the universe is still going to end.

Because Jean Grey will come back.



> If thanos saw a large buildup of energy of universal (like a spirit bomb that hasn't been sent yet) do you think he'd be able to absorb it?



Depends on the nature of the energy. The HOTU is cosmic in nature, akin to the very 616 cosmos itself.

The Spirit Bomb is composed of the energy of life.

That's all I can conclude.

Again, for example, if Thanos was capable of such energy absorption, I figured he would have absorbed the energies of, say, a Cosmic Cube, since the energies are cosmic in nature.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 14, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> You said that due to Thanos' nature, the Spirit Bomb would be effective against him.
> 
> Although I agree that Thanos' will be hurt from it, that's probably due to the 'good hearted' nature of the attack.
> 
> Thanos dove right into the HOTU and forced himself to acclimate to it to its entirety, whereas the Celestial Order and Akenhaten only possessed portions of it.



I thought you of all people would know there's a big difference between the HOTU and a spirit bomb. I mean one is a attack and another is like the most powerful source of energy in a universe


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## Orion (Dec 14, 2006)

its still energy.....


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 14, 2006)

> I thought you of all people would know there's a big difference between the HOTU and a spirit bomb. I mean one is a attack and another is like the most powerful source of energy in a universe



Ah. My mistake then.



> its still energy.....



You don't see the HOTU beign used in a offense manner against Thanos. It was just sitting there.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 14, 2006)

At the first stage of the spirit bomb, all Goku is doing is gathering energy. The second stage he focus's the energy and sends it towards the enemy in an attack.



> Indeed. Recently though, I've heard it's back into continuity, but I have yet to find a concrete source.
> 
> If The End is indeed into continuity, then the universe is still going to end.
> 
> Because Jean Grey will come back.



Its possible, tho i thought the whole of 'The End' was basically TOAA's plot to repair the damaged 616 universe using Thanos. At the end of it wasn't the universe repaired when Thanos released it?


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 14, 2006)

> Its possible, tho i thought the whole of 'The End' was basically TOAA's plot to repair the damaged 616 universe using Thanos. At the end of it wasn't the universe repaired when Thanos released it?



Yes, a new clean slate.

It doesn't mean it's immune to ressurection.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 14, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> its still energy.....



If it's energy then why didn't Thanos just absorb Galactus' attack?


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## Orion (Dec 14, 2006)

Gai said:


> If it's energy then why didn't Thanos just absorb Galactus' attack?



yeah i guess your right however,when goku is gathering it, it is just energy so thanos might be able to jack it then,i still dont see why this is being brought up though goku will never get a chance to use spirit bomb if he tried to stop and gather energy he would get beat to death thanos-visioned or pc blasted.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 14, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> yeah i guess your right however,when goku is gathering it, it is just energy so thanos might be able to jack it then,i still dont see why this is being brought up though goku will never get a chance to use spirit bomb if he tried to stop and gather energy he would get beat to death thanos-visioned or pc blasted.



I don't see Thanos as the type of person just to absorb any type of energy willy nilly. Yes I agree he probably could absorb the energy when Goku is forming it but I doubt he's the type of person to get all the power whenever he can


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 14, 2006)

Well, if we go by the non-canon DBZ movies, SSJ Goku absorbed the Spirit Bomb into himself to kill Super Android 13.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 14, 2006)

And thankfully the movies are non canon

Brick wall?


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## Vynjira (Dec 14, 2006)

Gai said:


> I don't see Thanos as the type of person just to absorb any type of energy willy nilly. Yes I agree he probably could absorb the energy when Goku is forming it but I doubt he's the type of person to get all the power whenever he can



Are we positive the energy is anything but spiritual until he converts it into that ball?


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 14, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> Are we positive the energy is anything but spiritual until he converts it into that ball?



This is DBZ we're talking about, you think Akira every explained anything?


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 14, 2006)

> This is DBZ we're talking about, you think Akira every explained anything?



Indeed. Most of the learned DBZ fans I know agree with this.


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## Vynjira (Dec 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Indeed. Most of the learned DBZ fans I know agree with this.



As Ironic as it is for the most learned to realise the Author didn't explain anything well, and the least learned think the Author explained everything... well I think its Ironic!


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 15, 2006)

AT wanted to end at the Frieza saga, but the fans wanted more, and so, he produced more. . .


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## Phenomenol (Dec 15, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Yet it's been consistently demonstrated that Superman is stronger, faster, smarter, and more durable than Goku.
> 
> I still maintain that Superman could defeat hundreds of Gokus simultaneously.



Not only is this post by Endless Mike wrong, but he gives NO proof to back up his threats. There is ALOT of OVEREXAGGERATION on the Thanos side as well.

Goku is just better than Thanos and Superman, he has fought beings that would DEMOLISH these two characters. Goku wins....


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 15, 2006)

Ah.

And thus, we continue. . . but not in this thread, or perhaps another, with the rule now. . .


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## Phenomenol (Dec 15, 2006)

You sound pretty intrigued to see me CBG??!!

I must say I have not seen you in a while, how have you been?


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 15, 2006)

> You sound pretty intrigued to see me CBG??!!



Haven't seen you other than the SHH! Boards.



> I must say I have not seen you in a while, how have you been?



One more exam to go.


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## Orion (Dec 15, 2006)

goku demolish thanos here we go again......believe whatever you want to phenom but goku hasnt shown the power to be able to demolish thanos.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 15, 2006)

Goku's Punches can DAMAGE characters who can Shrugg of planet destroying blasts easily. But yeah...you say he doesn't have the power to kill a purple monkey who has been GASHED by Drax...LOL!


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 15, 2006)

> Good!!! as long as your breathing you will do fine on your exam!!^^^



Thanks for the support, Phenomenol.


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## Orion (Dec 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Goku's Punches can DAMAGE characters who can Shrugg of planet destroying blasts easily. But yeah...you say he doesn't have the power to kill a purple monkey who has been GASHED by Drax...LOL!



and thanos shrugged off punches from people who destroy galaxies whats your point.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 15, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> and thanos shrugged off punches from people who destroy galaxies whats your point.



Now this is the OVEREXAGGERATED crap I am talking about! who has Thanos ACTUALLY fought that can destroy galaxies?

Thanos has been KILLED by a punch going through his body..LOL!


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 15, 2006)

> Now this is the OVEREXAGGERATED crap I am talking about! who has Thanos ACTUALLY fought that can destroy galaxies?



Tyrant, although Thanos was augmented.

He survived against both Galactus with his shields and survived against his more powerful clone, Omega.



> Thanos has been KILLED by a punch going through his body..LOL!



Because Drax has been specifically created by Thanos' grandfather, the cosmic of time Kronos, to kill Thanos. In essence, Drax is the anti-Thanos.

As for the early, diminshed intelligence, something went wrong in the resurrectoin, so I read.


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## Orion (Dec 15, 2006)

like cbg said drax was specifically made to kill thanos.and galactus and omega are easily galaxy destroyers.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 15, 2006)

The Tyrant that Thanos faught was a WEAKER version....The Tyrant you speak of was when he fought Galactus and BOTH of their powers COMBINED destroyed a Galaxy. Tyrant did NOT have the power that he had against Galactus when he faced off against Thanos, besides Thanos was AUGMENTED so that does NOT count.

Galactus and Thanos was NOT really a fight. Galactus could have easily killed Thanos if he wanted, I would NOT call that a fight. Thanos had help against Omega, he had to use all "THREE of his personal Force fields" and he barely survived. Guess what that blast was nowhere near planet destroying...I doubt if it was close to a nuclear blast.

I understand the whole situation with Drax and Thanos....nothing changes the fact that Drax punched through him like water.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Not only is this post by Endless Mike wrong, but he gives NO proof to back up his threats. There is ALOT of OVEREXAGGERATION on the Thanos side as well.
> 
> Goku is just better than Thanos and Superman, he has fought beings that would DEMOLISH these two characters. Goku wins....



You say I have no proof, then you make an idiotic statement with no proof, evidence, or anything.

Amazing.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> The Tyrant that Thanos faught was a WEAKER version....The Tyrant you speak of was when he fought Galactus and BOTH of their powers COMBINED destroyed a Galaxy.



"Countless" galaxies.



> Tyrant did NOT have the power that he had against Galactus when he faced off against Thanos, besides Thanos was AUGMENTED so that does NOT count.



Only with Morg's power, which is insignificant compared to his own.



> Galactus and Thanos was NOT really a fight. Galactus could have easily killed Thanos if he wanted, I would NOT call that a fight. Thanos had help against Omega, he had to use all "THREE of his personal Force fields" and he barely survived. Guess what that blast was nowhere near planet destroying...I doubt if it was close to a nuclear blast.



And what's your evidence for that?

Cosmic energy functions differently from normal energy, it can be transmuted and phased through different dimensions, time, etc.



> I understand the whole situation with Drax and Thanos....nothing changes the fact that Drax punched through him like water.



And he would have done the same to anyone under Celestial level if he had been specifically created by Kronos to kill them.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 15, 2006)

> The Tyrant that Thanos faught was a WEAKER version....The Tyrant you speak of was when he fought Galactus and BOTH of their powers COMBINED destroyed a Galaxy. Tyrant did NOT have the power that he had against Galactus when he faced off against Thanos, besides Thanos was AUGMENTED so that does NOT count.



Understandable. Note, more than one galaxy suffered in the fight between Galactus and Tyrant.



> Galactus and Thanos was NOT really a fight. Galactus could have easily killed Thanos if he wanted, I would NOT call that a fight. Thanos had help against Omega, he had to use all "THREE of his personal Force fields" and he barely survived. Guess what that blast was nowhere near planet destroying...I doubt if it was close to a nuclear blast.



Thanos' personal force fields and armour are part of his standard equipment, as well as a teleporter on his person.



> I understand the whole situation with Drax and Thanos....nothing changes the fact that Drax punched through him like water.



Well, only the undead and super, super cosmics can deny Mistress Death.

Thanos was neither.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 15, 2006)

LOL! my evidence? the fact that the blast did NOT destroy the planet and the fact that Thanos BARELY survives with all of his equipment. It was NOT stated so it was NOT planet destroying.

I understand all of your points CBG!!!...It is good t osee you post in this battledome again. I didn't know that was you in the SH forum!!??


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 15, 2006)

CBG.

I'd register as Comic Book Guy, but it was already taken. So, I use the abbreviation.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> LOL! my evidence? the fact that the blast did NOT destroy the planet and the fact that Thanos BARELY survives with all of his equipment. It was NOT stated so it was NOT planet destroying.



Just like 99% of DBZ attacks, including Vegeta's suicide attack. Therefore, by your own standards, SSJ2 Vegeta is only strong enough to create a crater in the ground a few hundred meters across.


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## Dr.Douchebag (Dec 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Now this is the OVEREXAGGERATED crap I am talking about! who has Thanos ACTUALLY fought that can destroy galaxies?


Tyrant and odin to name a few although they had the upper hand he still managed to stalemate them


> Thanos has been KILLED by a punch going through his body..LOL!



Superman has been KILLED by being punched repeatedly!!..LOL!


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## Phenomenol (Dec 15, 2006)

Cyborg Superman, read post #227 concerning Tyrant and Odin. As for Superman getting beaten to death.....yeah it happened more than once.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Cyborg Superman, read post #227 concerning Tyrant and Odin. As for Superman getting beaten to death.....yeah it happened more than once.




Well you clearly don't understand the Thanos/Drax situation.
Drax was created purely to destroy Thanos, Kronos has always given him the power he needed to do that. Add mistress death into the pie and Thanos dies.

As for the Tyrant part, Tyrant was still very powerful during there fight, there wasn't a massive difference between Thanos and Tyrant. 
As others have said, his force fields are a part of his character.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 15, 2006)

I understand the Drax and Thanos situtation very well, and nothing changes the fact that Drax PUNCHED through Thanos like water.

There was a HUGE difference between Thanos and Tyrant. An AUGMENTED Thanos could not beat Tyrant....Thanos even said if the battle continued he would have "DIED.!!" Thanos Forcefileds are nothing special either.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 15, 2006)

As you seem to think the 'Like water' punch had nothing to do with Kronos and Mistress Death, you don't understand the situation.

The energy in the orb Thanos used was less than 50% of morgs energy, morg himself is nothing compaired to Thanos.



> Thanos even said if the battle continued he would have "DIED.!!"



Thats nothing but a pure lie. Watch your actions here.



> Thanos Forcefileds are nothing special either.



Yeah Tanking Galactus/Omega/Champion/Thor is nothing special?


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## Phenomenol (Dec 15, 2006)

Still, The fact that Thanos was killed so easily changes nothing....Morg's energy AUGMENTED Thanos own energy allowing him to even stand up to Tyrant and fight him. You do know Thanos had to search Tyrant's computers to even locate the Orb. Thanos is NOTHING more than a prep time Whore.

No, it is the truth. In Cosmic Powers #6 Thanos admits that Tyrant would have destroyed him, and then goes on to say he got what he came for and says anymore strugle is meaningless...something like that. 

"Tanking?" Thanos was at Galactus's MERCY, even with his forcefields he was going to die, the same with Omega and Champion he barely survived those attacks. Especially Champions LAST punch which was a planet buster his Force Fields could NOT handle it, that is why he teleported the hell out of their.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Still, The fact that Thanos was killed so easily changes nothing....



Oh but i think your find it does. If Kronos hadn't built Drax to be Thanos bane (you know what i'm talking about right? I haven't lost you yet?) Drax wouldn't have been able to hurt Thanos. And if Mistress Death wasn't there, Thanos wouldn't of accepted death and paused allowing drax to attack.



Phenomenol said:


> Morg's energy AUGMENTED Thanos own energy allowing him to even stand up to Tyrant and fight him. You do know Thanos had to search Tyrant's computers to even locate the Orb. Thanos is NOTHING more than a prep time Whore.



You ignored what i wrote in my last post, the energy he had from that orb was less than 50% of morgs.  It enabled him to fight equally with Tyrant.



Phenomenol said:


> No, it is the truth. In Cosmic Powers #6 Thanos admits that Tyrant would have destroyed him, and then goes on to say he got what he came for and says anymore strugle is meaningless...something like that.



Tyrant is amazed that Thanos survived his attack, and says he'll kill him. Thanos says sure if you had the chance, but you don't. He claims his prize, tyrants pissed and Thanos says he is victorious.



Phenomenol said:


> "Tanking?" Thanos was at Galactus's MERCY, even with his forcefields he was going to die, the same with Omega and Champion he barely survived those attacks. Especially Champions LAST punch which was a planet buster his Force Fields could NOT handle it, that is why he teleported the hell out of their.



You can't deny what happened.
Thanos force fields stopped-
A full power fed Galactus blast.
A full power Omega blast (twice as powerful as galactus).
Multiple planet killing punches from champion.
Thors hammer like it was a toy.

If you bothered reading Thanos quest you'd learn his whole battle with Champion was an attempt to get him mad enough to destroy the planet, he fell into Thanos trap.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 15, 2006)

> Oh but i think your find it does. If Kronos hadn't built Drax to be Thanos bane (you know what i'm talking about right? I haven't lost you yet?) Drax wouldn't have been able to hurt Thanos. And if Mistress Death wasn't there, Thanos wouldn't of accepted death and paused allowing drax to attack.



Yes, with all that said he was made to take down Thanos. It looks to me as if he was growing stronger as he got closer to Thanos. ripping through the Forcefield is ridiculous and I DON'T CARE  if Thanos had a plan or not, ripping through his back and pulling out his heart is sick by no means. His ressurection has put him up pretty high as shown by the green aura that stays around him at times. and his resilience in that attack on the annihilation wave single handedly and killing the queen. Thanos simply got Annihilated.



> You ignored what i wrote in my last post, the energy he had from that orb was less than 50% of morgs.  It enabled him to fight equally with Tyrant.



Still doesn't change the fact that it AUGMENTED Thanos to stand up to Tyrant. Tyrant was still handing Thanos his ass.



> Tyrant is amazed that Thanos survived his attack, and says he'll kill him. Thanos says sure if you had the chance, but you don't. He claims his prize, tyrants pissed and Thanos says he is victorious.



Yes, that was before he teleported away..... read on......




> You can't deny what happened.
> Thanos force fields stopped-
> A full power fed Galactus blast.
> A full power Omega blast (twice as powerful as galactus).
> ...



Thanos force fields did NOT stop Galactus blasts, otherwise he would not be on his Knees telling Galactus to stop. Thanos used THREE Force Fields and his armor and he "BARELY" survived a blast that was probably at nuke level from Omega. Champion's punches were not planet busting, only the LAST punch was planet busting and even before that punch Thanos shields were buckling.

I read All of Thanos quest I already knew he wanted Champion to destroy the planet, his shields were still collapsing he was lucky that Champion stopped his onslaught, otherwise he would have lost.


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## Orion (Dec 15, 2006)

so omega attacks are on nuke level right......so galactus and omega cant destroy galaxies?thats just stupid i can say the same thing about all the blasts that go astray in dbz since goku didnt destroy the planet with his blast on cell i guess its not planet destroying,guess since vegeta didnt destroy the planet with his suicide move he cant destroy planets either.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 15, 2006)

That is a terrible argument. If the blast that Omega let out AT THAT CURRENT TIME was not stated to be planet destroying then it is not. The reader will be NOTIFIED if the attack is planet busting or more, that goes for DBZ as well as any other comic. You can't just say it is planet busting because they can do it.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 15, 2006)

Regarding Omega. . .

Although he's at least _twice_ as powerful as Galactus. . .

His mind, intelligence, well. . .

Picture Boris Karloff as Frankenstein's Monster.


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## Orion (Dec 15, 2006)

its not a stupid argument your wrong just because something doesnt say zomg its going to destroy the planet like dbz doesnt mean it cant.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Regarding Omega. . .
> 
> Although he's at least _twice_ as powerful as Galactus. . .
> 
> ...



Yeah but when it comes to a pure energy attack that hits its target. It doesn't matter about his mind if hes using hes full power and it hits its target.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yes, with all that said he was made to take down Thanos. It looks to me as if he was growing stronger as he got closer to Thanos. ripping through the Forcefield is ridiculous and I DON'T CARE if Thanos had a plan or not, ripping through his back and pulling out his heart is sick by no means. His ressurection has put him up pretty high as shown by the green aura that stays around him at times. and his resilience in that attack on the annihilation wave single handedly and killing the queen. Thanos simply got Annihilated.



Wow you noticed, as i've mentioned meny meny times Drax was made to kill Thanos, and you obviously have noticed Drax's power grow as he got close to his target.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Thanos force fields did NOT stop Galactus blasts, otherwise he would not be on his Knees telling Galactus to stop. Thanos used THREE Force Fields and his armor and he "BARELY" survived a blast that was probably at nuke level from Omega. Champion's punches were not planet busting, only the LAST punch was planet busting and even before that punch Thanos shields were buckling.
> 
> I read All of Thanos quest I already knew he wanted Champion to destroy the planet, his shields were still collapsing he was lucky that Champion stopped his onslaught, otherwise he would have lost.



If Omega is twice Galactus raw power and Galactus has destroyed Galaxys... Yeah a nuke sounds right..... (idiot)
Yeah thanos shields suck! They kept him alive against a super cosmic! I don't see what your problem is, Thanos shields are likely the strongest shields in the MU at the moment, have have saved him against loads of foes more powerful than himself.

Wait a second...Are you claiming Goku has power gem champions punch power or Omega/Galactus power energy attacks?



Phenomenol said:


> That is a terrible argument. If the blast that Omega let out AT THAT CURRENT TIME was not stated to be planet destroying then it is not. The reader will be NOTIFIED if the attack is planet busting or more, that goes for DBZ as well as any other comic. You can't just say it is planet busting because they can do it.



Like with Dragonball Z, we assume a full power blast could destroy a planet but the fighter puts enough focus on it to direct it at its target, it works both ways (or no DBZ characters can destroy planets)


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 15, 2006)

The Power Cosmic itself supposedly defies the laws of physics.


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 15, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> The Power Cosmic itself supposedly defies the laws of physics.



Yeah but we can't assume it Broke the laws of physics when the author doesn't mention anything etc.
I always considered Omega to be a super powered dumb galactus, he didn't have the intellect to counter the strategy used against him, but did have lots and lots of raw power.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 15, 2006)

> Yeah but we can't assume it Broke the laws of physics when the author doesn't mention anything etc.



Understandable.



> I always considered Omega to be a super powered dumb galactus, he didn't have the intellect to counter the strategy used against him, but did have lots and lots of raw power.



Indeed.


----------



## Dr.Douchebag (Dec 15, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Cyborg Superman, read post #227 concerning Tyrant and Odin. As for Superman getting beaten to death.....yeah it happened more than once.



Understandable , although you must remember thanos even managing to stay alive for more than 2  min against people like tyrant and galan is an impressive feat in itself


----------



## ∅ (Dec 15, 2006)

With all due respect guys ...


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 15, 2006)

Thanos' pimp hand can only be matched by Hal Jordan's GL boxing glove.


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 15, 2006)

And batchristmas man
Superman gets so owned


----------



## Bullet (Dec 15, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> And batchristmas man
> Superman gets so owned




Thanos gets owned. 

I'm back! Sorry it took me so long, but I was having fun else where!


----------



## Sengoku (Dec 16, 2006)

gotta go with Thanos on this one.

I mean he tied against Tyrant and his feats were more impressive as well


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 16, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> If Omega is twice Galactus raw power and Galactus has destroyed Galaxys... Yeah a nuke sounds right..... (idiot)
> Yeah thanos shields suck! They kept him alive against a super cosmic! I don't see what your problem is, Thanos shields are likely the strongest shields in the MU at the moment, have have saved him against loads of foes more powerful than himself.
> 
> Wait a second...Are you claiming Goku has power gem champions punch power or Omega/Galactus power energy attacks?
> ...



Galactus AND Tyrant COMBINED has destroyed Galaxies! I do NOT recall Galactus ever destroying a Galaxy by himself??!! 

As for Omega's blast it only created a crater in the surface of the planet to say the blast was planet destroying is not a good argument. Not every writer depicts people's attacks in the same way that's why we have inconsistency. Unless the attack is stated to be planet destroying you can't assume it was because he has done it in the past. Not every punch from Namor creates earthquakes, not every attack from the Hulk has split the Earth etc etc...In Dragonball most of the attacks are STATED to be planet busting or more.

Goku's punches DAMAGES characters who can CASUALLY shrugg of planet destroying attacks.....Goku does indeed have the punching power!


----------



## Thanatos (Dec 16, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> I do NOT recall Galactus ever destroying a Galaxy by himself??!!



That's not a question.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 16, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Galactus AND Tyrant COMBINED has destroyed Galaxies! I do NOT recall Galactus ever destroying a Galaxy by himself??!!



Considering that Galactus when he fought Tyrant (and Mephisto) destroyed "countless" galaxies, that kind of implies he could easily destroy one if he wanted to. Not to mention he once teleported one across the universe when he was weak and dying, and in the Black Celestial saga, he was absorbing the entire universe.



> As for Omega's blast it only created a crater in the surface of the planet to say the blast was planet destroying is not a good argument.



In that case, SSJ2 Vegeta's total power was only enough to create a crater in the ground a few hundred feet across.



> Not every writer depicts people's attacks in the same way that's why we have inconsistency. Unless the attack is stated to be planet destroying you can't assume it was because he has done it in the past.



In that case, 99.9999999999999% of all DBZ attacks are not planet - destroying.

Or we could be logical and say that since Thanos and Drax destroyed a planet just by fighting on it and Thanos was unharmed, but he was harmed by Omega's attack, it was greater than that.



> Not every punch from Namor creates earthquakes, not every attack from the Hulk has split the Earth etc etc...In Dragonball most of the attacks are STATED to be planet busting or more.



Wrong, only rarely are they stated to be so....



> Goku's punches DAMAGES characters who can CASUALLY shrugg of planet destroying attacks.....Goku does indeed have the punching power!



Except DBZ characters' defense against ki is greater than their defense against physical attacks. This is the only logical explanation considering that no DBZ character has ever demonstrated physical power anywhere near enough to destroy a planet.

Goku is non - factor in this fight. He dies in the first few seconds.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 16, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> In that case, SSJ2 Vegeta's total power was only enough to create a crater in the ground a few hundred feet across. In that case, 99.9999999999999% of all DBZ attacks are not planet - destroying. Or we could be logical and say that since Thanos and Drax destroyed a planet just by fighting on it and Thanos was unharmed, but he was harmed by Omega's attack, it was greater than that.
> 
> Except DBZ characters' defense against ki is greater than their defense against physical attacks. This is the only logical explanation considering that no DBZ character has ever demonstrated physical power anywhere near enough to destroy a planet.
> 
> Goku is non - factor in this fight. He dies in the first few seconds.



Indeed, Vegeta's suicide attack was NOT planet destroying, and It is confirmed in Dragonball WHEN an attack is planet busting or more and it is known WHICH attacks bust the planet. 

As for your Crappy statement about DB characters "defense against Ki is greater" it is BULLOCKS! An attack is an attack!!! and Goku's punches damages characters who can SHRUGG of planet busters. Goku has the hitting power and he won't be going anywhere in seconds with your lame argument.


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## Orion (Dec 16, 2006)

power cosmic>ki thanos-vision and a teleportation of goku into the sun deals with that.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 16, 2006)

Since when are the effects of ki and physical blows are the same?


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## Orion (Dec 16, 2006)

since never but apparently phenom thinks that dbz chars have planet destroying punches even though they have never exibited near enough physical strength to do so.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 16, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Indeed, Vegeta's suicide attack was NOT planet destroying, and It is confirmed in Dragonball WHEN an attack is planet busting or more and it is known WHICH attacks bust the planet.



So then all of Vegeta's power released at once, in SSJ2, was only enough to create a small crater in the ground?

So how to explain Frieza, who was much weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta, destroying planets?



> As for your Crappy statement about DB characters "defense against Ki is greater" it is BULLOCKS! An attack is an attack!!! and Goku's punches damages characters who can SHRUGG of planet busters. Goku has the hitting power and he won't be going anywhere in seconds with your lame argument.



You haven't even attempted to refute my argument. It is obvious from observation that DBZ characters have never demonstrated physical strength anywhere near the power of their ki attacks. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that their durability is greater against ki attacks than it is against physical attacks.


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## Bullet (Dec 16, 2006)

> SengokuGensui said:
> 
> 
> > gotta go with Thanos on this one.
> ...


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## Rice Ball (Dec 16, 2006)

Well he really is a null factor if Thanos just teleports him into space when the battle starts.
Then all he really has to do is batter superman which should be easy enough 1v1 without Goku getting in the way.


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## Bullet (Dec 16, 2006)

> Rice Ball said:
> 
> 
> > Well he really is a null factor if Thanos just teleports him into space when the battle starts.
> ...


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## Rice Ball (Dec 16, 2006)

still quoting me?

He doesn't need to make contact with someone to teleport them. See Champion v Thanos mk2.

Also Annihlation where he teleported a legion of enforcers into battle.

Thanos beats supes with relative ease.


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## Orion (Dec 16, 2006)

thanos will beat supes and then steal his line about ''thats enough kid''and probably add shine my boots or some shit,superman doesnt have the power to put thanos down he is not stronger then tyrant power gem thor galactus or odin or omega stop being a deluded supes fanboy.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 16, 2006)

Theres only 2 tiers of people according to him .

People who think superman can Speed blitz/melee down Galactus/Tyrant/Odin and people who Hate superman.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 17, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> the logical conclusion is that their durability is greater against ki attacks than it is against physical attacks.



Bwahahaahahaha!...this argument is BULLOCKS. An attack is an ATTACK...whether it be from a punch or a projectile. Especially the fact that Ki is used for ALL abilities including PHYSICAL strength!



			
				Rice Ball said:
			
		

> Well he really is a null factor if Thanos just teleports him into space when the battle starts.



Yeah.....right......Goku will just Shunkan Idou right back to Thanos! and beat him to death.


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## Orion (Dec 17, 2006)

goku isnt beating anyone to death,thanos has takin blows from people 100's of times stronger and he got right back up for more.thanos can teleport him into a star and goku is dead.


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## Dr.Douchebag (Dec 17, 2006)

Guys, why are we even bothering to argue?


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## BRANCHEAD33 (Dec 17, 2006)

Hamaru said:


> Bullet said:
> 
> 
> > In this one he is taking on Hulk, Thing, Thor and then some at the same time.
> ...


----------



## Jay (Dec 17, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> So then all of Vegeta's power released at once, in SSJ2, was only enough to create a small crater in the ground?
> 
> So how to explain Frieza, who was much weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta, destroying planets?


Exactly, it doesn't make sense at all, and this is only one of many cock up's in dbz, if a normal saiyan Vegeta in early dbz can destroy planet's, but a ssj2 Vegeta in late dbz cant on that episode, just doesn't add up whatsoever.
That's why Dbz stats for strength and speed arnt clear at all, because there are so many fuck up's in it that dont add up, surely you've noticed some of these yourself?





> You haven't even attempted to refute my argument. It is obvious from observation that DBZ characters have never demonstrated physical strength anywhere near the power of their ki attacks. Therefore, the logical conclusion is that their durability is greater against ki attacks than it is against physical attacks.


If this logical conclusion is true, then why is there a hell of alot more physical attack's being given and taken, then there are ki attack's?


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## BRANCHEAD33 (Dec 17, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> goku isnt beating anyone to death,thanos has takin blows from people 100's of times stronger and he got right back up for more.thanos can teleport him into a star and goku is dead.



A star!  You do know superman thrives off stars? He absorbs there solar energy. Teleport him there then he absorbs it and anal rapes thanos.

And if you are talking about red sun then you are sadly mistakin. Read infinite crisis. He flew through a red sun and landed on oa filled with kryptonite and stil fought superboy prime who happens to have push two planets together without breaking a sweat.


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## BRANCHEAD33 (Dec 17, 2006)

*Originally Posted by Endless Mike  
So then all of Vegeta's power released at once, in SSJ2, was only enough to create a small crater in the ground?

So how to explain Frieza, who was much weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta, destroying planets?*

that only happened because he condenced his power into a orb on the ground and all of his energy circulated in that orb. 

Ask yourself a question, Did vegeta want to destroy the planet? *note: He still felt emotions in his majin form.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 17, 2006)

Did Omega/Galactus want to destroy the planet?

It works both ways guys!


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 17, 2006)

> Bwahahaahahaha!...this argument is BULLOCKS. An attack is an ATTACK...whether it be from a punch or a projectile. Especially the fact that Ki is used for ALL abilities including PHYSICAL strength!



They're both attacks, but that's like saying fire and punching produce the same effects.



> And if you are talking about red sun then you are sadly mistakin. Read infinite crisis. He flew through a red sun and landed on oa filled with kryptonite and stil fought superboy prime who happens to have push two planets together without breaking a sweat.



Superman's powers wanes and decreases under a red sun.

Red suns to Kryptonians are yellow suns to us humans.


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## Orion (Dec 17, 2006)

i was talking about teleporting goku into  star,and thanos can beat supes to death under  a yellow sun.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 17, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> goku isnt beating anyone to death,thanos has takin blows from people 100's of times stronger and he got right back up for more.thanos can teleport him into a star and goku is dead.



Goku has fought beings that are much GREATER than Thanos in his career. Thanos can do NOTHING to Goku. I told you teleporting Goku will NOT work because he will just use Shunkan Idou and return right back to smash Thanos.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 17, 2006)

This thread and the ignorant Thanos-bashers makes Baby Jesus cry.


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## Kai (Dec 17, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Bwahahaahahaha!...this argument is BULLOCKS. An attack is an ATTACK...whether it be from a punch or a projectile. Especially the fact that *Ki is used for ALL abilities including PHYSICAL strength!*



Maybe, but to utilize ki in the most destructive way is to form a ki blast and fire it. No physical punches/kicks ever demonstrated in DBZ have been shown to be planet destroying.

Haha, welcome back.




			
				phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yeah.....right......Goku will just Shunkan Idou right back to Thanos! and beat him to death.



Didn't we already go through this argument once before? oh wait I'm sorry, it's been more than 20 I believe. Thanos DOES NOT HAVE KI.

PS: Not taking a side, just seeing errors in people's arguments.


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## Orion (Dec 17, 2006)

goku has no ki signature to use he gets thrown into a star and hes done with and no goku hasnt fought people greater than thanos,he has become a god on 3 different occasions and fights people who make dbz look like little kids go read a fukin comic.


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## Jay (Dec 17, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> goku has no ki signature to use he gets thrown into a star and hes done with and no goku hasnt fought people greater than thanos,he has become a god on 3 different occasions and fights people who make dbz look like little kids go read a fukin comic.


If by this you mean Thanos, can I ask why will thanos not have a life signature? is he dead or something?


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## Orion (Dec 17, 2006)

thanos doesnt have ki,everyone doesnt have ki and even if he did do you know what would happen?goku would teleport back to thanos to get thrown into a star again.or beat him to death like thanos did silver surfer.or use the power cosmic or thanos-vision or anything else he wants.


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## Jay (Dec 17, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> thanos doesnt have ki,everyone doesnt have ki and even if he did do you know what would happen?goku would teleport back to thanos to get thrown into a star again.or beat him to death like thanos did silver surfer.or use the power cosmic or thanos-vision or anything else he wants.


Why doesn't everybody have life signature who isn't dead? and even if that did happen goku isn't known for falling for the same thing twice.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 17, 2006)

> Goku has fought beings that are much GREATER than Thanos in his career. Thanos can do NOTHING to Goku. I told you teleporting Goku will NOT work because he will just use Shunkan Idou and return right back to smash Thanos.



DBZ villains > Skyfather Odin?

How?


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## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 17, 2006)

Champion w/Power Gem beats them all.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 17, 2006)

Kira's gif tutorial

The Powers Directory

All the other Thanos links posted here, the images are long gone now. That\s the only post I've searched so far with some of them still intact.


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## Kai (Dec 17, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Why doesn't everybody have life signature who isn't dead? and even if that did happen goku isn't known for falling for the same thing twice.



Here we go again. It's really simple. Alright, Ki = spiritual life force IN THE DBZVERSE. Thanos = has life, but doesn't have ki.

Therefore, Goku =/= IT to Thanos.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 17, 2006)

Sorry but it would take Goku a few seconds to work out just what happened. Enough time for him to freeze.


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## Bullet (Dec 17, 2006)

> Rice Ball said:
> 
> 
> > still quoting me?
> ...


----------



## Birkin (Dec 17, 2006)

Ki = Life Force, WHCIH EVERY existing man or animal has.

Edit: Don't count Ki as Chakra, Chakra is a stand-alone force from Naruto only, Ki is everywhere


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 17, 2006)

> Ki = Life Force, WHCIH EVERY existing man or animal has.



In all fictional universes?


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## Rice Ball (Dec 17, 2006)

Bullet said:


> He had the teleporter already set up on the planet when he fought Champ.



I don't think you've read that comics. Champion hunts down Thanos looking to settle the score, he catches up with Thanos and starts Ranting, Thanos says 'Go Away' and teleports him across the Galaxy.



Bullet said:


> But how far can he teleport? Can he teleport under his own powers? Where are they fighting at?



He has teleported people from one Universe to another. 



Bullet said:


> Thanos loses with relative ease. He won't be touching Supes, and he's fighting someone with comparable strength and durability.



I'll give you the same stupid reply you give me with this. Thanos wins.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 17, 2006)

Space said:


> Maybe, but to utilize ki in the most destructive way is to form a ki blast and fire it. No physical punches/kicks ever demonstrated in DBZ have been shown to be planet destroying. Haha, welcome back. Didn't we already go through this argument once before? oh wait I'm sorry, it's been more than 20 I believe. Thanos DOES NOT HAVE KI.
> 
> PS: Not taking a side, just seeing errors in people's arguments.



Yeah.... Goku's physical strength DAMAGES characters who can SHRUGG off planet busters easily. Yes your taking a side, because you are the one with errors in his/her argument. 



			
				Comic Book guy said:
			
		

> In all fictional universes?



Yes! Every character has a spirit! and that is what Goku senses is the SPIRIT of an individual!!!


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 17, 2006)

> Yeah your back and STILL you don't know what you are talking about. Goku's physical strength DAMAGES characters who can SHRUGG off planet busters easily.



Since when are the effects of physical blows and ki are the same?



> Yes! Every character has a spirit! and that is what Goku senses is the SPIRIT of an individual!!!



Even for fictional universes where the concept of ki are not applied by the creator?


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 17, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Since when are the effects of physical blows and ki are the same?
> 
> Even for fictional universes where the concept of ki are not applied by the creator?



Ki is the MAIN power Source in Dragonball!!! Ki ENHANCES all of their abilities including physical strength! otherwise they would NOT be able to SLAP away planet busters.

The concept of Ki is SPIRIT in dragonball!!!! and every fictional verse with every LIVING BEING in it has a spirit. Thanos is no different.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 17, 2006)

> Ki is the MAIN power Source in Dragonball!!! Ki ENHANCES all of their abilities including physical strength! otherwise they would NOT be able to SLAP away planet busters.



Yet, nothing remotely suggests that they can destroy a planet through sheer physical blows.



> The concept of Ki is SPIRIT *in dragonball*!!!! and every fictional verse with every LIVING BEING in it has a spirit. Thanos is no different.



That's the point. In Dragonball, everyone who is alive, basically life itself judging by the Genki Dama, possess ki.

However, this does not mean it necessarily holds true to every other fictional universe.

Look at Naruto. Everyone there possesses chakra, but this doesn't stretch out to other fictional universes.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 17, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Yet, nothing remotely suggests that they can destroy a planet through sheer physical blows.



Oh really....Their PHYSICAL attacks PULVERIZE characters who are more durable than planets! That is more than enough....



> That's the point. In Dragonball, everyone who is alive, basically life itself judging by the Genki Dama, possess ki. However, this does not mean it necessarily holds true to every other fictional universe. Look at Naruto. Everyone there possesses chakra, but this doesn't stretch out to other fictional universes.



Did you know in Naruto that "CHAKRA" is "KI??!!" it is just used in another word.... it all means SPIRIT, Soul, or life force!!!!


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 17, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Did you know in Naruto that "CHAKRA" is "KI??!!" it is just used in another word.... it all means SPIRIT, Soul, or life force!!!!



So is the Force in SW, Does that mean Goku has the Force and Naruto has the Force?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 17, 2006)

> Oh really....Their PHYSICAL attacks PULVERIZE characters who are more durable than planets! that makes me a believer....



Yet Cell and Kid Buu killed Goku and Gohan, Trunks, Piccolo, and Goten respectively.



> Did you know in Naruto that "CHAKRA" is "KI??!!" it is just used in another word.... it all means SPIRIT, Soul, or life force!!!!



And thus, because of that definition, a Naruto character can potentially destroy large masses of land through ki blasts, which they should theoretically manifest?

And DBZ characters can suddenly, Henge and utilize all the possible Jutsus that Naruto characters possess? As well as elemental affinities?

So if spirit = ki across all fictional universes, Macbeth could have potentially manifest ki blasts and destroy large pieces of land during his time as king of Scotland?


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 17, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Yet Cell and Kid Buu killed Goku and Gohan, Trunks, Piccolo, and Goten respectively.



Those beings have a HIGHER LEVEL of Power!!! That is why they could kill them.



> And thus, because of that definition, a Naruto character can potentially destroy large masses of land through ki blasts, which they should theoretically manifest?
> 
> And DBZ characters can suddenly, Henge and utilize all the possible Jutsus that Naruto characters possess? As well as elemental affinities?
> 
> So if spirit = ki across all fictional universes, Macbeth could have potentially manifest ki blasts and destroy large pieces of land during his time as king of Scotland?



No, Ki is SPIRIT! every LIVING being has it! Goku senses the SPIRIT of an individual. Are you telling me that thanos and Superman do NOT have aspirit.?


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 17, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Those beings have a HIGHER LEVEL of Power!!! That is why they could kill them.
> 
> 
> 
> No, Ki is SPIRIT! every LIVING being has it! Goku senses the SPIRIT of an individual. Are you telling me that thanos and Superman do NOT have aspirit.?



Superman has an Energy Matrix, Thanos as far as I know has never been specified as having a Spirit.

Again I ask Does Goku have the Force? Does Naruto?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 17, 2006)

> Those beings have a HIGHER LEVEL of Power!!! That is why they could kill them.



If their physical strength is sufficient enough to destroy a planet, why bother using ki blasts?



> No, Ki is SPIRIT every LIVING being has it! Goku senses the SPIRIT of an individual. Are you telling me that thanos and Superman do NOT have spirit.



They are alive, if that's what you're asking.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 17, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> Superman has an Energy Matrix, Thanos as far as I know has never been specified as having a Spirit.



Then...Superman and Thanos are DEAD!!!...... They both have a spirit, otherwise they would not be breathing.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 17, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Then...Superman and Thanos are DEAD!!!...... They both have a spirit, otherwise they would not be breathing.



Not True, Goku has Ki while he is Dead thus your wrong.

EDIT: Oh and Breathing has nothing to do with Spirit, Lungs are responsible for respiration in most living beings and in addition NOT every living being breaths thru the use of lungs. Which adds to the fact not every living being needs a Spirit.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 17, 2006)

> Then...Superman and Thanos are DEAD!!!...... They both have a spirit, otherwise they would not be breathing.



Plants have spirits?


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## Vynjira (Dec 17, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Plants have spirits?



According to the laws of the DBU, Yes All Life has a Spirit or Ki. Kaio Explains this when he is explaining the Spirit Bomb Draws power from all life on the planet.

EDIT: Here is a Scan.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 17, 2006)

> Rice Ball said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think you've read that comics. Champion hunts down Thanos looking to settle the score, he catches up with Thanos and starts Ranting, Thanos says 'Go Away' and teleports him across the Galaxy.
> ...


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 17, 2006)

> According to the laws of the DBU, Yes All Life has a Spirit or Ki. Kaio Explains this when he is explaining the Spirit Bomb Draws power from all life on the planet.
> 
> EDIT: Here is a Scan.



Yes, I referred to that earlier.

But inanimate objects? Like blenders, lamps, rocks, and the like?

And the Androids?


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 17, 2006)

Bullet said:


> Again, he had the teleporter already setup. Where across the galaxy, he teleported him, but it didn't tell how far he was. This was all done with the use of items and prep, something that he's not given in this battle.
> 
> Like who?
> 
> Supes wins. Faster, strong enough to hurt (and put him down for good), and durable enough to take Thanos attacks.



Hey Bullet do you think we're being biased on Thanos? Or that we hate/underestimate Supes?


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 17, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Yes, I referred to that earlier.
> 
> But inanimate objects? Like blenders, lamps, rocks, and the like?
> 
> And the Androids?



Well there is the possibility their talking about free energy from things that were once living.. as in DBU we already know dead things have Ki too.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 17, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> Hey Bullet do you think we're being biased on Thanos? Or that we hate/underestimate Supes?



Both. Time someone pick Supes (like me), people start attacking them and insulting them by calling them Superman fanboys and telling them that they know nothing about Thanos.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 17, 2006)

Bullet said:


> Both. Time someone pick Supes (like me), people start attacking them and insulting them by calling them Superman fanboys and telling them that they know nothing about Thanos.


Ok, but can I show you a real quick link?


*Spoiler*: _Superman Forum_ 



TheKryptonian

These people rarely discuss anything outside of Marvel or DC, Comic fans to the extreme. You can read their views on a Similiar Topic.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 17, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> Ok, but can I show you a real quick link?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Superman Forum_
> ...



I rather not. I don't need to sign up in another web forum, I'm in plenty already. But, if the people want to discuss Superman vs. Thanos, or any other vs. topic, tell them come here!

I'm also a comic fan to the extreme, it's why I say Supes can beat Thanos, since i know both of them well enough (without fanboysim) to pick who would be the winner.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 17, 2006)

Bullet said:


> I rather not. I don't need to sign up in another web forum, I'm in plenty already. But, if the people want to discuss Superman vs. Thanos, or any other vs. topic, tell them come here!



That would defeat the purpose. The site is called TheKryptonian, Their Superman fans. Coming here they would loose that aspect. All I ment was for you to read what the Superman Fans think.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 17, 2006)

> Vynjira said:
> 
> 
> > That would defeat the purpose. The site is called TheKryptonian, Their Superman fans. Coming here they would loose that aspect. All I ment was for you to read what the Superman Fans think.
> ...


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 17, 2006)

Bullet said:


> It doesn't matter what they think, since I'm not apart of it. I'm not a Superman fan or Thanos fan, but I do know alot about both to make my decision without the help of another web forum. It's why again, I pick Supes over Thanos.


Ok, well again Thanos stomps Supes. Sun Dipping will only bring Superman up to par with Thanos.


----------



## Orion (Dec 17, 2006)

bullet for supes to put down thanos he would have to be stronger then  a thor with wm backed by practically unlimited power, a well fed galactus odin or tyrant supes is not stronger then either,and none of them knocked thanos out so i still dont see how supes has enough power to do it.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 17, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> bullet for supes to put down thanos he would have to be stronger then  a thor with wm backed by practically unlimited power, a well fed galactus odin or tyrant supes is not stronger then either,and none of them knocked thanos out so i still dont see how supes has enough power to do it.


Current Supes is nowhere near on par with Thanos


----------



## Bullet (Dec 17, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> Ok, well again Thanos stomps Supes. Sun Dipping will only bring Superman up to par with Thanos.



Ok well again, Supes beats Thanos. Supes is faster (way faster), strong enough to hurt him, and is durable enough to take his attacks. Sun dip Supes will murder Thanos, it won't even be a fight.


----------



## Orion (Dec 17, 2006)

thanos is more then h2h though he has the power cosmic...he could litterally bath supes in kryptonite radiation and then just keep blasting with thanos-vision or pc until supes dies.


----------



## Kai (Dec 17, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Even for fictional universes where the concept of ki are not applied by the creator?



Whatever point you're going to make here, stop. I've already made various points countless times to Phenomenol(You can read the Flash vs Goku thread). Unfortunately, Phenomenol's whacked off teachings have poisoned Jplaya, hence the spoiler in my profile.



Phenomenol said:


> Yeah.... Goku's physical strength DAMAGES characters who can SHRUGG off planet busters easily. Yes your taking a side, because you are the one with errors in his/her argument.


As soon as you came back, I knew you would start mouthing off again.
If you're suggesting that Goku's physical strength > Ki blasts, why doens't he just one hit punch planets? He could just IT to another planet and wish the old planet back with the Dragonballs right? You're reasoning is flawed like always.



			
				phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yes! Every character has a spirit! and that is what Goku senses is the SPIRIT of an individual!!!


We(yes we specifically) have been through this over 20 times. 
Ki = life force in the *DBZVERSE*
Thanos = has life force, but does NOT have ki
Understand?
Obviously you won't, so here's an example.
Guy#1 has allergies to peanuts.
Guy#2 also has allergies, but not to peanuts.
Therefore, peanuts have no effect to guy #2.

If you argue this point any further, you're lost forever.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 17, 2006)

> vlaaad12345 said:
> 
> 
> > bullet for supes to put down thanos he would have to be stronger then  a thor with wm backed by practically unlimited power,
> ...


----------



## Orion (Dec 17, 2006)

thanos beats the shit outta surfer thor and drax on a regular basis wtf are you smoking.......and i said practically unlimited....as much as you maybe dont wanna admit it wm thor is close to supes in physical strength with power gem he got a huge upgrade and only managed to stalemate thanos until he got bored,we can keep going back and forth but preety much everyone but you is smart enough to realize supes is going down.go to other forums and search every thanos vs supes fight and thanos always wins.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 17, 2006)

Bullet said:


> Ok well again, Supes beats Thanos. Supes is faster (way faster),


Given but Supes doesn't and hasn't always utilised his Superspeed in combat so its null.





Bullet said:


> strong enough to hurt him,


No he's not.





Bullet said:


> and is durable enough to take his attacks.


And, No again.





Bullet said:


> Sun dip Supes will murder Thanos, it won't even be a fight.


Nope, not happening. Thats the Thor with Power Gem Scenario, and what happened when Thor had his Power Gem, Thanos got bored and went to get his "I don't wanna play with you right now" Gun.

Thanos > Superman(Currently)

Until you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Odin wasn't trying to kill Thanos, Your claims that Odin was holding back are invalid. Meaning they aren't facts and they don't support your arguement. *Get the proof or don't bring it up again.*


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 17, 2006)

Space said:


> Whatever point you're going to make here, stop. I've already made various points countless times to Phenomenol(You can read the Flash vs Goku thread). Unfortunately, Phenomenol's whacked off teachings have poisoned Jplaya, hence the spoiler in my profile.



Actually, Jplaya2023 has been active earlier on _other_ boards. I checked. His attitude is consistant across the boards.

Regardless, I'll keep posting. I choose to, because some things need to be made straight and corrected (especially with Jplaya2023).


----------



## Kai (Dec 17, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Actually, Jplaya2023 has been active earlier on _other_ boards. I checked. His attitude is consistant across the boards.
> 
> Regardless, I'll keep posting. I choose to, because some things need to be made straight and corrected (especially with Jplaya2023).



You, me, and Mike ^_^ but only for a situation like this.
By other boards, do you mean other forums? If so, can you show me a few forums he's part of?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 17, 2006)

> You, me, and Mike ^_^ but only for a situation like this.



Heopfully, they'll be more.


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## Vynjira (Dec 17, 2006)

Space said:


> You, me, and Mike ^_^ but only for a situation like this.



Girls being excluded again... u.u


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 17, 2006)

> Girls being excluded again... u.u



Well, to be honest, you're fairly new. Phenomenol and Jplaya2023 have. . . 'special reputations' in these forums, to put it lightly.

I've been known in consistantly and continuously opposing Phenomenol on certain topics when I first registered, and the same against Jplaya2023 when he first registered.

There are other posters here that argue, but few has the energy, tolerance, or drive to continue at it. So far, the only other poster besides me that argues against them on certain topics is Endless Mike.

And notice, I wasn't being gender specific when I meant 'others'.


----------



## Kai (Dec 17, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> comic book guy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 17, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Well, to be honest, you're fairly new. Phenomenol and Jplaya2023 have. . . 'special reputations' in these forums, to put it lightly.
> 
> I've been known in consistantly and continuously opposing Phenomenol on certain topics when I first registered, and the same against Jplaya2023 when he first registered.
> 
> ...



You have to admit tho, that you are excluding me. You who have stated me as being one of the few female posters!! I see how it is, Boy's house Boy's rules..


----------



## Thanatos (Dec 18, 2006)

Jplaya usually starts ignoring me when I badger him too much... even if I throw solid irrefutable logic backed up by evidence in his face.

Vynjira, there's nothing stopping you from arguing against jplaya (and I don't mind joining you in a little character assassination).


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 18, 2006)

Mortalis said:


> Vynjira, there's nothing stopping you from arguing against jplaya... by yourself if need be (but we'll be glad for your assistance anyway).


Whee!~   I thought I had been argueing against him u.u;
*Spoiler*: __ 



I think he called me Rild before..


----------



## Thanatos (Dec 18, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> Whee!~   I thought I had been argueing against him u.u;
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



He thinks that anyone who's against him and has a post count less then 1,000 is rild. 

He probably still thinks *I'm* rild.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 18, 2006)

> You have to admit tho, that you are excluding me. You who have stated me as being one of the few female posters!! I see how it is, Boy's house Boy's rules..



Well, Endless Mike and I have opposed Phenomenol on certain points for months as early as March. With regards to Jplaya2023, we've opposed him since his debut.

Gender has nothing to do with this. What I'm trying to say is that on most posters, opposing these two posters and like on certain topics is intense and repititive. Hence, why most posters discontinue.

Excuse or not, it's the truth. I'm beginning to know you as an Battledomer, since I've returned to the OB a week ago. So I apologize if I seem to be exclusive or racist. That was, and is never my intention.



> Whee!~  I thought I had been argueing against him u.u;
> Spoiler:
> I think he called me Rild before..



It's an automatic 'defense' of his, if you will.

Whenver two or more posters oppose his opinions, he accuses those that oppose him of being the same person.

He's accused me, Endless Mike, and one other poster being the same.

He accused Illuminati Rild, Suzumebachi, and Rice Ball as the same.

He even accused 4 to 6 Hulk fans on another board being the same person.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 18, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> What I'm trying to say is that on most posters, opposing these two posters and like on certain topics is intense and repititive. Hence, why most posters discontinue.
> 
> Excuse or not, it's the truth. I'm beginning to know you as a Battledomer, since I've returned to the OB a week ago. So I apologize if I seem to be exclusive or racist. That was, and is never my intention.


^-^; your not exclusive or racist! You don't come off that way either! Just felt left out


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 18, 2006)

> ^-^; your not exclusive or racist! You don't come off that way either! Just felt left out



Time will certainly rectify that, miss.

And I made a mistakel I meant to say sexist, not racist.

That said, this proves I'm not perfect, despite what others may say (if they do).


----------



## Thanatos (Dec 18, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> And I made a mistakel I meant to say sexist, not racist.



I thought that seemed a little out of place...


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 18, 2006)

Mortalis said:


> I thought that seemed a little out of place...


Leave me out of this!!! Oh, you meant.. nvm ^^;

Speaking of racist, Superman is the last Kryptonian so are we racist for choosing Thanos?


----------



## Kai (Dec 18, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> And I made a mistakel I meant to say sexist, not racist.



No you didn't, don't try to cover it up. Pound your chest with your fists and let out that inner racist in you, Comic Book guy, you bad boy you.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 18, 2006)

> Leave me out of this!!! Oh, you meant.. nvm ^^;
> 
> Speaking of racist, Superman is the last Kryptonian so are we racist for choosing Thanos?



You forgot Kara Zor-El.

And as of the Superman issues after "Up, Up, and Away!", there are 3 Kryptonians.

Possibly 4, if you account for Ultraman in Kandor.

5, if you account Kara-Zor-L, Kryptonian of the former Earth-2.



> No you didn't, don't try to cover it up. Pound your chest with your fists and let out that inner racist in you, Comic Book guy, you bad boy you.



I can't, otherwise Cassandra Cain would beat me to a pulp. Again.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 18, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> You forgot Kara Zor-El.
> And as of the Superman issues after "Up, Up, and Away!", there are 3 Kryptonians.
> Possibly 4, if you account for Ultraman in Kandor.
> 5, if you account Kara-Zor-L, Kryptonian of the former Earth-2.


Wouldn't Kon-el technically count?

They made a comment like that in Smallville, Brainiac responded "Well, a superior civilization is hard to kill."


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 18, 2006)

> Wouldn't Kon-el technically count?



Well, Infinite Crisis changed that.


*Spoiler*: _Infinite Crisis_ 



Kon-El died when he and Superboy-Prime collided with Alexander Luthor's multiversal genrating tower.




Plus, Kon-El is only half Kryptonian.



> They made a comment like that in Smallville, Brainiac responded "Well, a superior civilization is hard to kill."



Well, Smallville differs from the comics quite a bit though.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 18, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Plus, Kon-El is only half Kryptonian.
> Well, Smallville differs from the comics quite a bit though.


Tiger Woods is a halfbreed but I still consider him black...

..and yes but Tom Welling is cute... and so is Lana!!(Even tho she's turned into a bish)


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## Kai (Dec 18, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> Tiger Woods is a halfbreed but I still consider him black...
> 
> ..and yes but Tom Welling is cute... and so is Lana!!(Even tho she's turned into a bish)



Yeah, Smallville is a really interesting series. I thought it was really different from the comics, but it's only a little bit?

The new episodes start on January 11th, and 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 It's the start of the Justice League, with Kid Flash, Clark, Aquaman, Green Arrow, and Cyborg.. is that supposed to be right?




Damn, all the girls at my school say Tom Welling is hot. I guess I can see it... he has perfect teeth and was born in New York.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 18, 2006)

Space said:


> Yeah, Smallville is a really interesting series. I thought it was really different from the comics, but it's only a little bit?
> 
> The new episodes start on January 11th, and
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I'd rep you for that... but I'm at my max..


----------



## Kai (Dec 18, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> I'd rep you for that... but I'm at my max..



Haha, I think you've already repped me twice before.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 18, 2006)

Well, rumour has it that before the Smallville series ends, they want to have Bruce Wayne featured in an episode.


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## Vynjira (Dec 18, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Well, rumour has it that before the Smallville series ends, they want to have Bruce Wayne featured in an episode.


You just made my night. 

*Spoiler*: __ 



Gonna respond to the most recent threads then wet myself then go to bed..


----------



## Kai (Dec 18, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Gonna respond to the most recent threads then wet myself then go to bed..


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 18, 2006)

Space said:


>


Ever seen Office Space?

EDIT: Going to bed but to finish what I was gonna say..

I just got to see your O Face!!


----------



## Dr.Douchebag (Dec 18, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> You forgot Kara Zor-El.
> 
> And as of the Superman issues after "Up, Up, and Away!", there are 3 Kryptonians.
> 
> ...



Ultraman as in the evil supes from earth 3 is in kandor? is he just there or is he imprisoned?

also, hank henshaw should technically count as well as he's '100%' kryptonian


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 18, 2006)

> Ultraman as in the evil supes from earth 3 is in kandor? is he just there or is he imprisoned?



It's unknown whether it's the Anti-Matter universe's Ultraman or the Ultraman of Earth-3.

And he's enslaved by Saturn Queen in Kandor, as seen in the Supergirl OYL storyline.



> also, hank henshaw should technically count as well as he's '100%' kryptonian



Though, he's human prior to becoming what he is most known for.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 18, 2006)

Bullet said:


> > Again, he had the teleporter already setup. Where across the galaxy, he teleported him, but it didn't tell how far he was. This was all done with the use of items and prep, something that he's not given in this battle.
> >
> > Like who?
> >
> ...


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 18, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Thanos wins, Stronger, more durable, more powers, more tech.


Smarter and More Dangerous as well.


----------



## Dr.Douchebag (Dec 18, 2006)

No point arguing guys, even if there were a scan of thanos killing supes they'd just say its a jobber aura or say its non-canon.


----------



## Thanatos (Dec 18, 2006)

Or a written confession by Supes...

"I, Superman, hereby proclaim that I am, have always been and always will be, weaker then the being _(from an alternate universe that I have never met and never will)_ known as Thanos."

It was just a statement, it needs an event for it to be considered canon.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 18, 2006)

> You haven't read that comic, Thanos didn't have any prep done, Champion suprised him! Seriously posting bullshit isn't helping you at all.
> 
> Centurions in Annihlation, he teleported them from the Negative zone to the 616 universe.



Again, he had the teleporter already setup. Where across the galaxy, he teleported him, but it didn't tell how far he was. This was all done with the use of items and prep, something that he's not given in this battle.



> Thanos wins, Stronger, more durable, more powers, more tech.



superman wins, he's stronger, way faster, more durable, and doesn't need tech.



> Smarter and More Dangerous as well.



He's not smarter either, probably more dangerous since he is the badguy that's always preping behind the hero's back.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 18, 2006)

> Given but Supes doesn't and hasn't always utilised his Superspeed in combat so its null.



Supes uses his speed when he wants to, he doesn't use it until he really needs it against (someone with superspeed) or he just grow tired of playing around with them, so ends it quickly. Thanos doesn't have superspeed, so he'll be speedbiltzed like crazy.



> No he's not.



Yeah, he is!



> And, No again



And yes, again!



> Nope, not happening.



Yeah it's happeing.



> Thats the Thor with Power Gem Scenario,



So what, how strong is Thor with the PG?




> and what happened when Thor had his Power Gem,



He beat the crap out Thanos, like Supes is going to do to him!





> Thanos got bored and went to get his "I don't wanna play with you right now" Gun.



Thanos fled from battle, because he was about to lose.


> Thanos > Superman(Currently)



Current Superman > Thanos



> Until you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Odin wasn't trying to kill Thanos,



Don't need to, if Odin was serious, the galaxy would be destroyed. Heck Thor even kicked Thanos but with just a small upgrade of Odins power (Odin gave him power), when Thanos and Thor fought, both were using items that boosted their powers.



> Your claims that Odin was holding back are invalid.



He was holding back, Odin at full power (is on the level of Surtur or even greater, Surtur destroys galaxies) could possibly be able to beat Galactus at full power. Odin wasn't using his full godly powers.





> Meaning they aren't facts and they don't support your arguement. Get the proof or don't bring it up again.



You mean like Thor being able to hurt him, Drax being able to hurt him, Surfer, and countless more, I see no need to prove anything, since you havn't proven that Thanos is invincible to harm from either of them. Again, Supes will cause severe damage to Thanos. Oh and Supes has also fought Gods too, thanos isn't the only one.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 18, 2006)

> He was holding back, Odin at full power could possibly be able to beat Galactus at full power. Odin wasn't using his full godly powers.



This, I must seriously question.

How is Odin of the Skyfathers comparable to Galactus, of all cosmics? Granted, Odin is a powerful Asgardian and cosmic with the Odinforce and all, but to argue that he is on par with Galactus?

Even Odin with the Destroyer armour, powered by the lifeforces of every other Asgardian save Thor, still lost to the Celestials.

The only scenario plausible for a win for a Skyfather is an extremely weak and hungry Galactus.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Dec 18, 2006)

Odin w/Destroyer has a shot of defeat usual hunger Galactus at best. Well-fed or full-power Galactus could destroy Odin and all of Asgard with ease.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

I never got answered how fast Thanos is? Is he faster than Superman (speed of light)?


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 18, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> I never got answered how fast Thanos is? Is he faster than Superman (speed of light)?



He is very likely slower than Superman, but has reaction speeds enabling him to fight people faster than him (Like Surfer/Thor/Marvel/Eros etc)

Heres a scan for bullet


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## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> He is very likely slower than Superman, but has reaction speeds enabling him to fight people faster than him (Like Surfer/Thor/Marvel/Eros etc)



But reaction speed won't be of any help if you can't move that fast. He wouldn't be able to block any of Superman's punches. Thor isn't even close to  Supes speed. What about the others, did they actually fight him at super speeds?


----------



## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> But reaction speed won't be of any help if you can't move that fast. He wouldn't be able to block any of Superman's punches.



reflexes and reaction time do count......thanos has tagged and killed speedsters on several different occasions,supes or goku have to go in for a hit eventually and when they do they are going to be teleporting into  a blackhole or power cosmic blasted or simply thanos will do what he did to silver surfer(beat him to death).


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> reflexes and reaction time do count......thanos has tagged and killed speedsters on several different occasions,supes or goku have to go in for a hit eventually and when they do they are going to be teleporting into  a blackhole or power cosmic blasted or simply thanos will do what he did to silver surfer(beat him to death).



How is he ever going to lay a punch at Superman, if his slower than him?


----------



## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

hes slower in movement speed not reaction and reflexes.here we go lets say your faster then me...but i have reaction and reflex speed same as yours guess what?as soon as you run at me and try to attack i can block or attack back.


----------



## Timur Lane (Dec 18, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> How is he ever going to lay a punch at Superman, if his slower than him?



Well Thanos took down Silver Surfer who is a lot faster than Superman with just his hands.
He never stood a chance.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> hes slower in movement speed not reaction and reflexes.here we go lets say your faster then me...but i have reaction and reflex speed same as yours guess what?as soon as you run at me and try to attack i can block or attack back.



That would require that his speed is close to his opponents. Even if you noticed that some punch was coming towards you at the speed of light, if your muscles isn't close to that speed, you would never reach to block the punch.
Besides did Silver Surfer and other opponents actually fought Thanos at super speed?


----------



## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

noxname said:


> Well Thanos took down Silver Surfer who is a lot faster than Superman with just his hands.
> He never stood a chance.



it was worse then the beatdown nox has in his sig o0.


----------



## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> That would require that his speed is close to his opponents. Even if you noticed that some punch was coming towards you at the speed of light, if your muscles isn't close to that speed, you would never reach to block the punch.
> Besides did Silver Surfer and other opponents actually fought Thanos at super speed?



except thanos can react to ss and yes thanos has fought people at much faster then light speed caught them and then humiliated them like usual(runner and ss come to mind)silver surfer can travel wayyyyy beyond lightspeed and thanos has tagged him when surfer is doing that.there is a difference between body speed and pure reflexes reaction time,just because lets say naruto could maybe dodge a bullet doesnt mean he can catch them out of the air.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> except thanos can react to ss and yes thanos has fought people at much faster then light speed caught them and then humiliated them like usual(runner and ss come to mind)silver surfer can travel wayyyyy beyond lightspeed and thanos has tagged him when surfer is doing that.



I would like to see that battle? To know wether SS actally was moving FTL in the battle. If SS could move at such high speeds against Thanos, he could easily have speedblitz him. If Thanos' punches comes towards you at a certain speed v and you actally ARE able to move faster than v, then you should easily be able to dogde that punch. Unless ofcourse you say that SS can't react FTL, then that would mean, that he CAN'T move FTL in an actual battle. Because you would have to react at a speed at least as great as you movement speed.



> there is a difference between body speed and pure reflexes reaction time,just because lets say naruto could maybe dodge a bullet doesnt mean he can catch them out of the air.



That's correct, there is a difference between reaction speed and actual movement speed. But in your example, if someone if fast enough to move his body fast enough to dogde a bullet, then surly he would also be able to catch the bullet, granted that he has tough skin ofcourse so the bullet doesn't just pierce through his hands


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 18, 2006)

Surfer has thought against the Runner. Who has combat/travel speed > Speed of light.
Another example of a Thanos movement is during Infinity Gauntlet. Surfer is traveling at hyperspeed (214000xLS? i can't remember exactly how meny lightyears he traveled in a second and attacked) and Thought moves his arm out of the way, even if it wasn't a dodge, it shows he was able to move his body at that speed.


----------



## Timur Lane (Dec 18, 2006)

As Rice Ball said some posts before, Thanos dosent have the speed Superman or Silver Surfer have.
But his reflexes and reaction speed enable him to catch them since they seem to be lightspeed to(look at the scan Rice Ball posted)
And don,t forget that Thanos has a lot of durability(extreme durability actually) he have taken punishment from stronger persons than Superman like Tyrant and Power gem Thor, he is also god of prep.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

Then I would need some scans from those events. Because I can't imagine how that is possible...
Because imagine if you can react at the speed of light. And a person is standing 5 m away from you with a gun. And as he fires the bullet, let's assume for practical reasons that you react to it instantly, and that you start moving your hand to catch the bullet (assuming you know where it is headed) at the same time. If the bullet is traveling towards you with a speed of 1000 m/s, and assuming that you need to move you hand 0.5 m to catch the bullet, then your hand must move at 100 m/s in order to reach the bullet. So it wouldn't matter if you reacted to the firing of the bullet instantly, if you can't move you hand at 100 m/s.


----------



## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

thanos has ftl reflexes....he just cant fly faster then light or run faster then light......if thanos has fought and beat people who use super speed and fighting all the time then the logical answer is thanos has the reflexes to deal with them not that they werent using there speed.


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 18, 2006)

No offence, but read the thread 
We've been through this with Bullet before.


----------



## Jay (Dec 18, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> thanos has ftl reflexes....he just cant fly faster then light or run faster then light......if thanos has fought and beat people who use super speed and fighting all the time then the logical answer is thanos has the reflexes to deal with them not that they werent using there speed.


He's not asking for your opinion... he's asking for some proof.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> thanos has ftl reflexes....he just cant fly faster then light or run faster then light......if thanos has fought and beat people who use super speed and fighting all the time then the logical answer is thanos has the reflexes to deal with them not that they werent using there speed.



I just showed you, that it wouldn't matter even if he had instantious reaction speed, if his muscles can't move anywhere close to those speeds, he is not going to block/catch/dogde punches at those speeds. So it's more likely that his opponents didn't move at super speeds. Otherwise you'll need to show some scans, so I can see what is actaully happening.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> No offence, but read the thread
> We've been through this with Bullet before.



Can you pinpoint some of your answers to those questions? Because there is 19 pages, and I don't have much time 

EDIT: Sorry for double posting.


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## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

my scanner is broken and i dont have comics on my comp atm(just got a new one)but im sure riceball or some other person can point you towards a thanos respect thread with pics or  post some pics.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 18, 2006)

I'll post a few scans.
This is Eros of Titan Thanos brother leading an attack against him, the titans Flew from Titan (Saturns moon) to Thanos ship displaying lightspeed+ movement.








As you can see, dispite being out matched in the speed dept, Thanos was able to react, Grab Eros and slam him.


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## Thanatos (Dec 18, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> As you can see, dispite being out matched in the speed dept, Thanos was able to react, Grab Eros and slam him.



... eventually.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 18, 2006)

Sorry for double post, only 6 images per page you see.

Second is infinity gauntlet 4
Dispite surfer traveling at hyper speed (thousands x lightspeed) thanos see's and moves, and TURNS and faces him as he is close. Slowing Thanos is able to react at such speeds.





Now for a real treat
Silver Surfer v Runner.




This is the same silver surfer that....


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## Jay (Dec 18, 2006)

How fast is eros speed suposed to be? and just by looking at those scan's how are we suposed to know if eros is fighting at lightspeed?


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## Rice Ball (Dec 18, 2006)

Mortalis said:


> ... eventually.



better late than never eh 


Thanos speed blitzing the silver surfer?   only joking before you flame me



> How fast is eros speed suposed to be? and just by looking at those scan's how are we suposed to know if eros is fighting at lightspeed?



As i said, he flew from Titan to another Galaxy in a few minutes, smashed through Thanos ships hull and continued attacking Thanos at the same speed.


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## Vynjira (Dec 18, 2006)

Bullet lost the arguement when he claimed Thanos isn't smarter than Superman. Clearly showing he doesn't know jack about Thanos.


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## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> Bullet lost the arguement when he claimed Thanos isn't smarter than Superman. Clearly showing he doesn't know jack about Thanos.



bullet said supes was smarter then thanos....i didnt even see that lol.


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## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

About Thanos' fight against his brother, then the speed difference them didn't seem to be that great. Again, if Eros could move FTL he could just've speed blitzed him, and Thanos wouldn't even be able to see him. He would see delayed images of Eros, and hence never be able to actaully locate him, IF Eros was FTL. Besides that, it seemed that he caught him off guard.

Does it actaully say in the comic that SS is headed towards Thanos at speed far greater than the speed of light? Because by the events it didn't seem to be the case. If SS was flying FTL, then the LIGHT from SS should reach to Thanos' "delayed". Thanos' shouldn't have been able to SEE him if SS was FTL. Even if we assume Thanos' somehow received the light before SS reaches there (which would require light speed > SS' speed), then the only ting he did was dogde a "projectile". SS was just like a bullet flying in only 1 direction and didn't seem to have control of that speed, otherwise he would've returned in an instant.
Actaully if I could (somehow) "see" a beam of light traveling towards me from a great distance, I wouldn't even need FTL reaction speed or anything to just step aside and easily avoid the beam, without any super speed or super reaction speed.


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## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

surfer travels ftl its been said on several different occasions,i dont remember how far away ss was but they were i think atleast half a galaxy or so away,and eros went ftl,thanos has fought the runner as well someone who moves and fights at ftl and he beat him too,thanos has lightspeed or ftl reaction time its that simple.


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## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> surfer travels ftl its been said on several different occasions,i dont remember how far away ss was but they were i think atleast half a galaxy or so away,and eros went ftl,thanos has fought the runner as well someone who moves and fights at ftl and he beat him too,thanos has lightspeed or ftl reaction time its that simple.



You should read my reply again. Because the events on those scans contradicts all those facts. Unless Speed of light > SS' speed.

Besides, I don't disagree on the fact that Thanos' has super reaction speed.


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## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

except the problem is comics dont always use 100% real life logic,surfer was farrrrrrrr away he would have had to travel ftl to get there before thanos took his hand down to punch captain america into oblivion.


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 18, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Actaully if I could (somehow) "see" a beam of light traveling towards me from a great distance, I wouldn't even need FTL reaction speed or anything to just step aside and easily avoid the beam, without any super speed or super reaction speed.



This is all that is needed to show that you know nothing of what you are talking about.

If you were able to see a beam of light coming at you, that would mean _it's already there_. You can't dodge something at light speed by 'seeing it'. You _sense_ it. Thanos can 'sense' things much like Spider-man's 'Spider Sense', which is why he can dodge things that are going at light speed.


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## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

does thanos have cosmic awareness? i forgot.


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 18, 2006)

Yes, he does.


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## Vynjira (Dec 18, 2006)

Bullet said:


> superman wins, he's stronger, way faster, more durable, and doesn't need tech.
> He's not smarter either, probably more dangerous since he is the badguy that's always preping behind the hero's back.


A claim like that screams you don't know anything about Thanos. Thats like saying Superman's powers aren't effected by Yellow Stars or Kryptonite.


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## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> except the problem is comics dont always use 100% real life logic,surfer was farrrrrrrr away he would have had to travel ftl to get there before thanos took his hand down to punch captain america into oblivion.



Is it stated in the comic how far away he was?
Besides I also explained that he could've dodged it without the need of having super speed or super reaction, as SS only had a 1-directional movement.

Either way, no matter how you put it, there is just no way that reaction speed alone can give you the ability to be able to block/dogde/catch something FAR greater than your own speed. This should be logical.


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## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Is it stated in the comic how far away he was?
> Besides I also explained that he could've dodged it without the need of having super speed or super reaction, as SS only had a 1-directional movement.
> 
> Either way, no matter how you put it, there is just no way that reaction speed alone can give you the ability to be able to block/dogde/catch something FAR greater than your own speed. This should be logical.



its not illogical at all.....this is comics alot of shit dont make sense....slade doesnt have  flash esque speed yet he shot flash in the mother fucking leg lol,shit happens thanos can react at ftl.and aside from the speed issue....wtf is supes going to do that would do more damage then hes takin from tyrant,odin,galactus,or wm power gem thor?offtopic-wow someone neg repped me for saying akuma would beat itachi....i think it should be the other way around on that one lol.


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## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> This is all that is needed to show that you know nothing of what you are talking about.
> 
> If you were able to see a beam of light coming at you, that would mean _it's already there_. You can't dodge something at light speed by 'seeing it'. You _sense_ it. Thanos can 'sense' things much like Spider-man's 'Spider Sense', which is why he can dodge things that are going at light speed.



You should read replies with more attention, because I clearly mentioned this. And I said that if I SOMEHOW could "see" the beam. I explained why Thanos' SEEING SS would mean that SS isn't FTL.
It's quite clear from the scan that Thanos' can actaully SEE Silver Surfer before SS was there. So this should mean that SS wasn't FTL. Because if the light from SS reached Thanos' before SS, it means SS moved slower than the speed of light.

Then I assumed that even if SS was FTL and the light from SS still reached to Thanos' before SS, Thanos' should be able to dogde, since SS only a uncontrolable 1-directional motion.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 18, 2006)

Shortly before Thanos tussles with the Earth heroes, Adam Warlock and Silver Surfer comments on the distance between him and Thanos.

I'd find the issue, but I'm at the university right now, at a terminal.


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## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

that would be true if this was the only fight thanos has won against a speed user but,he has fought the runner a confirmed ftl'er,and eros who also went faster then light,so in short its looking like thanos has ftl reaction speed.


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## Gooba (Dec 18, 2006)

> Is it stated in the comic how far away he was?


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## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> its not illogical at all.....this is comics alot of shit dont make sense....slade doesnt have  flash esque speed yet he shot flash in the mother fucking leg lol,shit happens thanos can react at ftl.and aside from the speed issue....wtf is supes going to do that would do more damage then hes takin from tyrant,odin,galactus,or wm power gem thor?offtopic-wow someone neg repped me for saying akuma would beat itachi....i think it should be the other way around on that one lol.



I do think that Thanos' can react FTL. But I'm just opposing the fact that it would enable him to fight someone a super speed. His muscles would just be too slow to even reach to Superman. The moment Thanos' starts to throw his punch, Superman would easily dogde that punch, if the speed of the punch is inferior to Superman's speed. And if Superman can move at the speed of light, his reaction would HAVE to be atleast as great as his speed, otherwise Superman would only be able to fly at super speed when flying in a 1-direntional motion.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Dec 18, 2006)

Woah, imagine if Surfer ever needed glasses


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 18, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> You should read replies with more attention, because I clearly mentioned this. And I said that if I SOMEHOW could "see" the beam. I explained why Thanos' SEEING SS would mean that SS isn't FTL.
> It's quite clear from the scan that Thanos' can actaully SEE Silver Surfer before SS was there. So this should mean that SS wasn't FTL. Because if the light from SS reached Thanos' before SS, it means SS moved slower than the speed of light.



No, you're using very, very foolish comparisons.

By saying he could "see" light is basically turning it into a brick, not light. Even if you could 'see' a beam of light, you couldn't dodge it without faster than light reflexes: You need to process the threat, identify it as a threat, create a reaction to the threat, and then initiate said reaction. By your definition, a regular human being should be able to dodge a bullet even if he could somehow 'see' the bullet. Even if you can see it doesn't mean you can dodge it. You need the reflexes to be able to do it.



> Then I assumed that even if SS was FTL and the light from SS still reached to Thanos' before SS, Thanos' should be able to dogde, since SS only a uncontrolable 1-directional motion.



Whatever his motion, he would still be able to react before Thanos because he's travelling a speed far faster than someone without 'FTL reflexes' could possibly hope to react. If he's travelling thousands of times faster than the speed of light, then he'd have to be at _least_ some degree of FTL reflexes, otherwise he couldn't react before Surfer had taken it and gone. It's not about direction or anything, it's purely about speed and Thanos actually reacting to it.


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## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> I do think that Thanos' can react FTL. But I'm just opposing the fact that it would enable him to fight someone a super speed. His muscles would just be too slow to even reach to Superman. The moment Thanos' starts to throw his punch, Superman would easily dogde that punch, if the speed of the punch is inferior to Superman's speed. And if Superman can move at the speed of light, his reaction would HAVE to be atleast as great as his speed, otherwise Superman would only be able to fly at super speed when flying in a 1-direntional motion.



regardless of what you think he has fought ftl'ers so your whole argument goes out the window,even if thanos couldnt hit supes which he can,thanos is muchhhhhhhh more than h2h my friend the power cosmic teleportation  smarts ect ect.supes can slug on thanos all he wants but supes doesnt have the raw power to put thanos down or keep him down.


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 18, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> I do think that Thanos' can react FTL. But I'm just opposing the fact that it would enable him to fight someone a super speed. His muscles would just be too slow to even reach to Superman. The moment Thanos' starts to throw his punch, Superman would easily dogde that punch, if the speed of the punch is inferior to Superman's speed. And if Superman can move at the speed of light, his reaction would HAVE to be atleast as great as his speed, otherwise Superman would only be able to fly at super speed when flying in a 1-direntional motion.



So he has FTL reactions, but he can't react to Superman fighting with Super-Speed?

By the pictures posted, yes, he could react and fight Supes. He ducked SS travelling at thousands of times the speed of light. If he can do that, it stands to reason that he can do that with the rest of his limbs if need be. He might not be as _mobile_ as Superman, but Thanos is obviously not slow by any stretch. He could easily go toe-to-toe with Superman, no matter the speed.


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## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> No, you're using very, very foolish comparisons.
> 
> By saying he could "see" light is basically turning it into a brick, not light. Even if you could 'see' a beam of light, you couldn't dodge it without faster than light reflexes: You need to process the threat, identify it as a threat, create a reaction to the threat, and then initiate said reaction. By your definition, a regular human being should be able to dodge a bullet even if he could somehow 'see' the bullet. Even if you can see it doesn't mean you can dodge it. You need the reflexes to be able to do it.



So when you can't discus properly you simply start calling arguments "foolish"? Drop this...

I clearly explained all of that. I remember stating "from a *great* distance"... If I see a rocket traveling towards me from a long enough distance I would be able to dogde the rocket. But that certainly won't mean that I'm faster than the rocket. It depends on from what distance I saw the rocket. I wouldn't even need super human reflexes to do this, if the distance if great enough.

But I'm not trying to argue that Thanos' can't react that fast!



> Whatever his motion, he would still be able to react before Thanos because he's travelling a speed far faster than someone without 'FTL reflexes' could possibly hope to react. If he's travelling thousands of times faster than the speed of light, then he'd have to be at _least_ some degree of FTL reflexes, otherwise he couldn't react before Surfer had taken it and gone. It's not about direction or anything, it's purely about speed and Thanos actually reacting to it.



Again, I'm not trying to say that Thanos' doesn't have super reaction speed. I'm trying to argue that those reaction speeds alone won't allow him block/dogde punches from a close distance, that is in a combat for example. And if his muscles can't move that fast, there is no way he is laying a punch on Superman, since he won't be able to move his muscles at super speed, even though he can react to it.


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## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> regardless of what you think he has fought ftl'ers so your whole argument goes out the window,even if thanos couldnt hit supes which he can,thanos is muchhhhhhhh more than h2h my friend the power cosmic teleportation  smarts ect ect.supes can slug on thanos all he wants but supes doesnt have the raw power to put thanos down or keep him down.



I'm only trying to argue about the speed. May I ask you HOW Thanos' is going to lay a punch on Superman, if his no where near Superman's light speed?


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## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

except he has already done what you keep saying,lets say for the sake of argument that thanos cant react and hit supes which he can,he releases a wide beam of the power cosmic and supes goes down end of story.or he teleports supes into  a red sun,or thanos-visions him,or countless other ways im sure thanos evil mind can come up with to humiliate supes.like i said earlier thanos will beat supes and steal his line about ''its over kid''except at the end he will add shine by boots or wash my costume or make me a sandwich or something this is not even remotely close of a match dont listen to bullet anyone with half a brain can see thanos wins.


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## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> except he has already done what you keep saying,lets say for the sake of argument that thanos cant react and hit supes which he can,he releases a wide beam of the power cosmic and supes goes down end of story.or he teleports supes into  a red sun,or thanos-visions him,or countless other ways im sure thanos evil mind can come up with to humiliate supes.like i said earlier thanos will beat supes and steal his line about ''its over kid''except at the end he will add shine by boots or wash my costume or make me a sandwich or something this is not even remotely close of a match dont listen to bullet anyone with half a brain can see thanos wins.



For the last time, I'm _not_ saying Thanos' doesn't have super reaction speed. Only apointing that he isn't touching Superman if he doesn't have a speed that is close to Superman's. _This_ should be logical.

As for wether he wins by teleporting Superman into a red sun that's a whole different story. Doesn't he btw have to hold on Superman to teleport him? If he doesn't need to, then I don't know how Superman would "beat" this one 

And I'm not taking what other people have stated about Superman. Only suggesting that Thanos' isn't beating Superman in h2h combat, due to speed difference.


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## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

i know what your trying to say....but HE HAS touched people at superman+speed so the argument fails,thanos can catch supes in h2h,thanos doesnt have mobility speed but he has reaction speed,and again thanos has many more ways then h2h to treat supes like a little school girl.


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## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> i know what your trying to say....but HE HAS touched people at superman+speed so the argument fails,thanos can catch supes in h2h,thanos doesnt have mobility speed but he has reaction speed,and again thanos has many more ways then h2h to treat supes like a little school girl.



About how he touched those people, the explanation is simple; They didn't move at the speeds they travel with (FTL) in the combat against Thanos'. So you have to prove that they indeed _did_ move FTL in the combat against Thanos'.
Unless you want to state Thanos moves FTL?
Reaction speed alone isn't going to help you catch something at the speed of light, if your muscles can't move at those speeds. Surly you understand this?
So the simple explanation is that Thanos' opponents didn't fight FTL. You need to prove that they did.


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## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

go re read rice balls scans.....they moved at ftl they have fought at ftl before,until you bring evidence they arent fighters at ftl your opinion means nothing,and yet again for about the 100000 time,thanos has many more ways then simply h2h to kill supes.and last time i checked supes has been tagged by people slower then lightspeed.furthermore ss going many times faster then light still wasnt able to blitz thanos so how is supes who doesnt go ridiculously faster then light supposed too.


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## Jay (Dec 18, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> About how he touched those people, the explanation is simple; They didn't move at the speeds they travel with (FTL) in the combat against Thanos'. So you have to prove that they indeed _did_ move FTL in the combat against Thanos'.
> Unless you want to state Thanos moves FTL?
> Reaction speed alone isn't going to help you catch something at the speed of light, if your muscles can't move at those speeds. Surly you understand this?
> So the simple explanation is that Thanos' opponents didn't fight FTL. You need to prove that they did.


So basically what your saying is surfer was traveling at ftl speed's, but the logical explaination is that he obviously slowed down once there to attack thanos, because Thanos wouldn't even get the chance to see surfer at ftl speed's nevermind be able to dodge it, it just wouldn't add up.
That sound's perfectly reasonable to me, and I cant understand why some of you are talking to this guy like he's an idiot and calling him foolish, when clearly he's not, and he isn't talking to any of you like shit so *LESS* of the hate and flaming there's no need for it.


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 18, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> So when you can't discus properly you simply start calling arguments "foolish"? Drop this...
> 
> I clearly explained all of that. I remember stating "from a *great* distance"... If I see a rocket traveling towards me from a long enough distance I would be able to dogde the rocket. But that certainly won't mean that I'm faster than the rocket. It depends on from what distance I saw the rocket. I wouldn't even need super human reflexes to do this, if the distance if great enough.
> 
> But I'm not trying to argue that Thanos' can't react that fast!



You want to know why I'm calling it foolish? Because you basically tried to turn 'Thanos dodges a move by Silver Surfer going thousands of times the speed of light' into 'Thanos dodges a brick'. You've neutered light to the point that you can see it as a projectile (Thanos didn't see Surfer, he sensed him) and gave it enough distance that you could dodge it beforehand. It's not the same, it's a very, very different situation and I called it a foolish comparison because _that's what it is_.

Read back what you wrote and try and compare it to what Thanos did. Thanos couldn't see the Surfer coming, and he dodged him while Surfer was going thousands (a conservative estimate, that is; if he got there in one second, he was easily going into the tens of millions of times faster than light, if he got there in a minute, it'd be around 500,000 times faster) of times the speed of light.

And you're saying "Okay, he can do that... but he can't dodge Superman's attacks!"

How much sense does that _really_ make given the evidence?



> Again, I'm not trying to say that Thanos' doesn't have super reaction speed. I'm trying to argue that those reaction speeds alone won't allow him block/dogde punches from a close distance, that is in a combat for example. And if his muscles can't move that fast, there is no way he is laying a punch on Superman, since he won't be able to move his muscles at super speed, even though he can react to it.



He's fought with people like Odin and others who are cosmic beings far above Superman. He's trashed Silver Surfer, who is leagues above Superman in power and speed. He already accomplished a reaction feat that proves he can react FTL with his body movements, even if he can't run or fly at that speed.

By the by, he _can_ move his muscles at that speed: To dodge, you need to move your body, which means muscles were in action. Unless he somehow shifted his body through some hithero unknown fashion, his muscles can move that fast because he actually DODGED Surfer's move.


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 18, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> So basically what your saying is surfer was traveling at ftl speed's, but the logical explaination is that he obviously slowed down once there to attack thanos, because Thanos wouldn't even get the chance to see surfer at ftl speed's nevermind be able to dodge it, it just wouldn't add up.



No, he's disputing the other stuff, not the Surfer stuff. The Eros stuff, that is.



> That sound's perfectly reasonable to me,



Except it wasn't mentioned anywhere that he slowed down. Why travel that far away when you are going to go at subluminal speeds anyways?

Warlock was taking a gamble and trying to catch Thanos off-guard by having him travel hundreds of thousands of times the speed of light from a distance that Thanos couldn't see him at. Thanos was able to react to Surfer and dodge Surfer. There's nothing in those scans that indicates to the otherwise. Believing that he slowed down to a millionth of his previous speed makes absolutely no sense in the context the scans are put in.



> and I cant understand why some of you are talking to this guy like he's an idiot and calling him foolish, when clearly he's not, and he isn't talking to any of you like shit so *LESS* of the hate and flaming there's no need for it.



"Foolish" is flaming now? Heck, even he didn't make a big deal out of it, and I was simply stating the absurdity of his comparison (which it is; he changed the entire context around so much that it didn't even add up anymore). Go ahead and report me if you like: I'm sure someone will give you a lollipop later.


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## Jay (Dec 18, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> You want to know why I'm calling it foolish? Because you basically tried to turn 'Thanos dodges a move by Silver Surfer going thousands of times the speed of light' into 'Thanos dodges a brick'. You've neutered light to the point that you can see it as a projectile (Thanos didn't see Surfer, he sensed him) and gave it enough distance that you could dodge it beforehand. It's not the same, it's a very, very different situation and I called it a foolish comparison because _that's what it is_.
> 
> Read back what you wrote and try and compare it to what Thanos did. Thanos couldn't see the Surfer coming, and he dodged him while Surfer was going thousands (a conservative estimate, that is; if he got there in one second, he was easily going into the tens of millions of times faster than light, if he got there in a minute, it'd be around 500,000 times faster) of times the speed of light..


And all he is saying is that it doesn't make sense that surfer in your opinion who isn't just going lightspeed, he is going 1000s of time's lightspeed, but Thanos who cant even move normal ftl can clearly see him coming and dodge him it just doesn't make sense which it doesn't.
So sorry if you think that it foolish but that's just your opinion.


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## Bullet (Dec 18, 2006)

> Justice And Rule said:
> 
> 
> > So he has FTL reactions, but he can't react to Superman fighting with Super-Speed?
> ...


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## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

still waiting on what attack supes has in his arsenal that dwarfs odin,galactus,tyrant or power gem wm thor.


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 18, 2006)

Bullet said:


> Yeah, because Thanos doesn't have superspeed.



Not ground speed. He has enough speed in his extremities to block and punch. He's taken on people with super speed before, his reaction time only proves it. Has Superman travelled millions of times the speed of light before? Do all his punches?



> No he couldn't react to Supes, him moving his hand out of Surfer's way because Surfer missed, doesn't give Thanos superspeed. Especially since he was having such a difficult time catching Captain America and captain Marvel.



Uh, pics? Besides, Thanos during that fight wasn't even trying. The whole Surfer thing woke him up to the fact that he's been playing too lightly when everything is on the line.



> That doesn't mean he has superspeed though, Thanos was just lucky that Surfer was the one that missed.



So wait... you're saying that Surfer missed and Thanos didn't dodge? Is that what you are saying?

You can't be serious.



> How? When has Thanos, thor, or Surfer ever been shown to have highspeed movement?



When they've caught Eternals, Mercury (For Thor) and others like that. They've fought people who have used Super Speed before, just like Superman has lost to people who don't have it.



> Probably never will.



Why would he even need to?



> He's very slow compared to Supes.



He dodged a move from Surfer, who was travelling _millions of times the speed of light_. I doubt that he'd be THAT slow.



> He could easily go toe-to-toe if Supes decided not to use his Superspeed.



Or if he did. Otherwise, why doesn't Superman just speed-blitz Darkseid, who has absolutely _no_ speed showings, reaction or otherwise?



> If Supes uses his speed, Thanos won't be able to keep up. He's no faster than Thor, Hulk, or Surfer, none of them have superpseed; their whole body doesn't operate at superspeed like Supes does. Thor is only able to fly fast in flight speed with the use of his hammer without it he can't fly very fast, Surfer can't fly without his board and can't fly at high speeds without it either.



Thor has shown the ability to keep up with Mercury (The Greek God), tagged Dupe with Mjonir (Who was going at the Speed of Light) among other things. He's stood toe-to-toe with Odin and cosmic forces that can destroy galaxies. Simple speed will not be enough to take him down. He's pretty much a low-end cosmic if you really want to get down to it.


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 18, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> And all he is saying is that it doesn't make sense that surfer in your opinion who isn't just going lightspeed, he is going 1000s of time's lightspeed, but Thanos who cant even move normal ftl can clearly see him coming and dodge him it just doesn't make sense which it doesn't.
> So sorry if you think that it foolish but that's just your opinion.



Actually, my opinion makes perfect sense, since it's the one supported by the actual comic. Surfer was moving at Millions of times the speed of light. Thanos was able to dodge the move.

Your mistake is thinking that one has to always move at FTL to be able to react at FTL speeds. It's completely possible to not have the pure footspeed, but faster reaction times: Boxers have excellent reactions, but they aren't necessarily as fast as an olympic sprinter. FTL Movement isn't necessary for FTL Reactions.

If you can find some, you know, actual _*proof*_ to support your opinion, then show it. But the scans show that Thanos dodged an attack that was going millions of times the speed of light. Not Surfer slowing down. Not Surfer _missing_. It showed Thanos _dodging_.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 18, 2006)

Infinity Gauntlet #3. Silver Surfer and Adam Warlock states that they are "a little more than a lightyear from Thanos' current position."


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## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Infinity Gauntlet #3. Silver Surfer and Adam Warlock states that they are "a little more than a lightyear from Thanos' current position."



gooba already posted the scan so im not sure how this is even being debated on after that.


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 18, 2006)

Well, apparently some people think that he just slowed down, and others believe that Surfer missed rather than him dodging. Not sure how you get any of those from the scans, but ah well.


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## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> You want to know why I'm calling it foolish? Because you basically tried to turn 'Thanos dodges a move by Silver Surfer going thousands of times the speed of light' into 'Thanos dodges a brick'. You've neutered light to the point that you can see it as a projectile (Thanos didn't see Surfer, he sensed him) and gave it enough distance that you could dodge it beforehand. It's not the same, it's a very, very different situation and I called it a foolish comparison because _that's what it is_.
> 
> By the by, he _can_ move his muscles at that speed: To dodge, you need to move your body, which means muscles were in action. Unless he somehow shifted his body through some hithero unknown fashion, his muscles can move that fast because he actually DODGED Surfer's move.



It's seems that you misunderstood my argument, but I won't bother trying to explain it again.

Btw, are you now trying to say that Thanos' can move FTL? I already explained he doesn't need superspeed to dogde SS, even though SS was moving that fast. Because consider the example I gave earlier; If you see a rocket (or a bullet if you have superhuman eyes of some sort) traveling towards you from a GREAT distance (that is, that the object if far away from you when you notice/see it), then regarding the distance you would be able to dogde the bullet/rocket without much effort. But that doesn't mean that I can move faster that the bullet or rocket.
The same goes for Thanos. Btw SS stated that Thanos was looking in their direction, so he was probably aware of them, and as you stated, he could sense SS (I'll just ignore the the part where the flash of light from SS was in Thanos' eye, as this would imply SS' speed to be lower than SoL), so it wouldn't require speeds close to SS to dogde as he did.


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## Orion (Dec 18, 2006)

ss went millions of times the speed of light,thanos dodged ss attack,thanos has ftl reaction speed,i dont see what is so diffucult about this.


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 18, 2006)

I understood the argument. The way you changed it didn't make it a correct comparison because Thanos couldn't see it from far away.

He can at least keep up his body movements with Superman. He might not be running around at super speed, but he probably has some degree of incredible speed (As shown by the scan) that would make speed-blitzing ineffective.

I don't see how he would suddenly get beaten by Superman when he goes toe-to-toe with cosmic Gods and beings on a regular basis.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 18, 2006)

Thanos sensed Surfer and Adam Warlock before drastically reducing his awareness and sensory input from the Infinity Gauntlet. He knew they were there.


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 18, 2006)

True, but he drastically reduced it before he came. Thusly he would have less time to react.


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## Bullet (Dec 18, 2006)

> Not ground speed.



He doesn't have it at all.


> He has enough speed in his extremities to block and punch.



Against slow moving people.


> He's taken on people with super speed before,



And they always speedbiltzed him, but he's fighting someone that doesn't only fly very fast but can move his whole body at very high speeds. For every punch Thanos throw, Supes will come back with hundreds more.



> his reaction time only proves it.



His reaction time is very slow.



> Has Superman travelled millions of times the speed of light before? Do all his punches?



Supes isn't going to be flying at Thanos but hitting mutiples times with very fast movement. And Supes hasn't shown his fastest speed yet, but he fights someone that was able to travel all the way from the edge of another galaxy and got to earth in a sec (eradicator).




> So wait... you're saying that Surfer missed and Thanos didn't dodge? Is that what you are saying?



Thanos dodged by luck, it was Surfer that missed.



> You can't be serious.



I'm serious, you can't be serious for actaully thinking Thanos has superspeed.



> When they've caught Eternals, Mercury (For Thor) and others like that.




Who doesn't have bodily movement speeds like Supes. Why does Thor always have a difficult time against Spiderman, Moongoose and Cap?



> Why would he even need to?



you right, since he hasn't fought with people with superspeed like Supes anyways.



> He dodged a move from Surfer, who was travelling millions of times the speed of light. I doubt that he'd be THAT slow.



Was Thor hammer to his face or Spiderman kicking him in the face that fast before Surfer missed? That doesn't mean he has superspeed though, Thanos was just lucky that Surfer was the one that missed.


> Or if he did.



He will, because he has it.




> Otherwise, why doesn't Superman just speed-blitz Darkseid, who has absolutely no speed showings, reaction or otherwise?



Dakseid has superspeed and his son Orion. When Supes met Darsied for the first time, it was hard to keep up with his movements. When Orion and Darseid fought, they were fighting at high speeds. Orion is Darkseid son btw, he has shown speed feats aswell. Darkseid and Thanos are completely different.



> Thor has shown the ability to keep up with Mercury (The Greek God), tagged Dupe with Mjonir (Who was going at the Speed of Light) among other things.



Who was flying at the speed of light, he doesn't have fast reaction speeds like Spiderman or Cap does.



> He's stood toe-to-toe with Odin and cosmic forces that can destroy galaxies.



Except Odin wasn't using his full power in his fight against Thanos. If he was, that planet that was still there that they were fighting on would have been gone the first attack he made.



> Simple speed will not be enough to take him down.



It'll be enough, and add strength great enough to destroy planets and mess with time/space, he'll go down.




> He's pretty much a low-end cosmic if you really want to get down to it.



Supes is a high end cosmic, he's beaten beings to prove it.



> Uh, pics? Besides, Thanos during that fight wasn't even trying. The whole Surfer thing woke him up to the fact that he's been playing too lightly when everything is on the line.



Yeah he wasn't trying because he has items to help him (the IG), but once he was KOed by M. Thor, then he came to his senses.


Has Thor or Surfer ever shown speeds like this in combat or having very high thinking speeds.

Superman catching bullets with little effort. Thor needs to use his hammer to block hand gun fire, and have trouble doing so. Supes does it with little effort against machine gun fire.

Really

Here's Superman reading at high speeds. Which proves how fast his thinking speed is. This is before his recent upgrade, where his brain has gotten even faster. Can Thor do this? Has he ever shown to have this ability?

Really

Has Thor or Surfer ever show to be able to fight at high speeds (using fast bodily movement). Using after images and vibrating intangible (or invisible) with their speed.

Really

Link removed

Really

Has Thor ever shown to be able to move that he's not seen by others. Here's Superman making a "Bat" symbol out of a few black wires and slapping it on a reporter's chest AFTER Lois openend up his shirt, and nobody could even perceive him.


review

Everything on Supes operates at superspeed, he's not just able to fly very fast like Thor and Surfer, but is able to speed up every part of his body.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 18, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Thanos sensed Surfer and Adam Warlock before drastically reducing his awareness and sensory input from the Infinity Gauntlet. He knew they were there.



But they forgot to mention that part! It's pathetic.


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## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> ss went millions of times the speed of light,thanos dodged ss attack,thanos has ftl reaction speed,i dont see what is so diffucult about this.



Oh.. Did I mention that I do believe that Thanos' have FTL reaction speed 



Justice And Rule said:


> I understood the argument. The way you changed it didn't make it a correct comparison because Thanos couldn't see it from far away.



You said yourself that you can't see light before it has reached you. That was my basis in my argument (maybe I should've mentioned it anyways, since I assumed people would just know). At the bottom of , Thanos' has a flash of light from SS in his eye. This suggest that SS didn't move FTL, otherwise Thanos' wouldn't have seen the light. Anyway I'm reasonable to ignore this plot hole. So the explaination for how Thanos' dogded it, was because he (according to you and possibly to the scan Gobba provided) could sense SS even far away. And if you read my example earlier I explained that Thanos' wouldn't have to move FTL to dogde SS. But I'm still _not_ saying Thanos' can't react FTL.



> He can at least keep up his body movements with Superman. He might not be running around at super speed, but he probably has some degree of incredible speed (As shown by the scan) that would make speed-blitzing ineffective.



As you also stated yourself that Thanos' doesn't move at super speeds. Then how would his punches ever reach Superman before Superman dogdes at the speed of light, if Thanos' punch isn't at the SoL of faster?

Even if you had _instantanious_ reactions speed, then how would you catch something that moves at the speed of light if you can't move anywhere close to that speed?


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 18, 2006)

I'm not even going to respond to Bullet because he didn't even provide scans for what I was talking about, and he's pulling just another "Cyborg Superman".

Anyways, to MS Gohan:



> You said yourself that you can't see light before it has reached you. That was my basis in my argument (maybe I should've mentioned it anyways, since I assumed people would just know). At the bottom of this scan, Thanos' has a flash of light from SS in his eye. This suggest that SS didn't move FTL, otherwise Thanos' wouldn't have seen the light. Anyway I'm reasonable to ignore this plot hole. So the explaination for how Thanos' dogded it, was because he (according to you and possibly to the scan Gobba provided) could sense SS even far away. And if you read my example earlier I explained that Thanos' wouldn't have to move FTL to dogde SS. But I'm still not saying Thanos' can't react FTL.



He didn't sense him from far away. Like you said, the first realization we see from Thanos is when we see the light (Yes, it is a plot hole. Comic book writers were never fantastic on physics... ). The panel before that, we see that Surfer is definitely not that far away. At least, not far away enough for your comparison to mean anything, which is why I said it was foolish.

If you look at SS's position in comparison to the battleground, along with Thanos' moment of realization, you can clearly see that Thanos would have to move far faster than light. Put all of the picture together, not just the distance.



> As you also stated yourself that Thanos' doesn't move at super speeds. Then how would his punches ever reach Superman before Superman dogdes at the speed of light, if Thanos' punch isn't at the SoL of faster?
> 
> Even if you had instantanious reactions speed, then how would you catch something that moves at the speed of light if you can't move anywhere close to that speed?



I stated that I don't believe he has super-speed in terms of movement. When I say movement, I mean running speed and such. He obviously has the reaction and body speed for it, as shown in the scan.

Reaction time doesn't go without body speed. You can't dodge something going faster than light and not be able to keep up with someone who is going millions of times slower. If Thanos has FTL reactions, that means he has reactions that can allow his body to move at FTL speeds, like it was shown in the scan. If he can't move his body at faster than light speeds, then he couldn't dodge SS.

Do you get what the rest of us are saying now?


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 18, 2006)

I do understand what you are trying to say, which is that Thanos' can move his hands (or his body) FTL. But this claim can't alone be justified by that event, since it's not exactly a battle, and Thanos' could feel them far away, because of what SS says in this scan. "He's looking our way".
And since Thanos' can react FTL he should notice that SS' started moving, which should give him enough time to his movements.

Why doesn't reaction speed doesn't go withour bodyspeed? It's actally the other way around, if you can move at the speed of light but can't react at SoL, then you would only be able to fly in 1 direction at the speed of light. For example you wouldn't be able to fight at SoL if you didn't have at least the same reaction speed. Just tell me if I have to explain this in more details, if it doesn't make sense.


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## Vynjira (Dec 19, 2006)

Bullet said:


> And Supes hasn't shown his fastest speed yet, but he fights someone that was able to travel all the way from the edge of another galaxy and got to earth in a sec (eradicator).


Current Supes has only been seen at light speed no faster.


Bullet said:


> Thanos dodged by luck, it was Surfer that missed.


How someone that can see over a light year away moving at such speeds with cosmic percision MISSES someone like Thanos... How bout no?


Bullet said:


> Was Thor hammer to his face or Spiderman kicking him in the face that fast before Surfer missed? That doesn't mean he has superspeed though, Thanos was just lucky that Surfer was the one that missed.


Or, more accuratly they tagged him like Thanos is gonna tag Supes over and over again.


Bullet said:


> Who was flying at the speed of light, he doesn't have fast reaction speeds like Spiderman or Cap does.


Proof??? 


Bullet said:


> Except Odin wasn't using his full power in his fight against Thanos. If he was, that planet that was still there that they were fighting on would have been gone the first attack he made.


Actually he was going out since you have yet to prove he wasn't. Where we have scans showing Odin struggling with Thanos and comparing him to a near equal.


Bullet said:


> Supes is a high end cosmic, he's beaten beings to prove it.


So has Thanos, as far as I know Current Supes hasn't beaten many beings to keep his status at high end cosmic.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 19, 2006)

> I do understand what you are trying to say, which is that Thanos' can move his hands (or his body) FTL. But this claim can't alone be justified by that event, since it's not exactly a battle, and Thanos' could feel them far away, because of what SS says in this scan. "He's looking our way".
> And since Thanos' can react FTL he should notice that SS' started moving, which should give him enough time to his movements.



That's with aid from the Infinity Gauntlet. Thanos later drastically diminished his awareness and sensory input from the Gems before taking on the Earth heroes.

Eros even comments that Thanos' cosmic senses has been dimmed, after he was struck by both dumb Drax and Hulk in his Professor incarnation.



> Current Supes has only been seen at light speed no faster.



Actually, Superman can go FTL in space.


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 19, 2006)

It doesn't matter if he's looking their way. It's when the realization sets in that matters. That's when he actually starts dodging.

I'm sorry, I mistyped on my last post. I'm playing a video game right now (the new Rayman game for the PS2. It's really awesome and I recommend it to everyone...) and I guess I missed that last part.

Anyways, what I meant was that not having ultra-fast movement speed doesn't mean you have slow reaction speeds. I think you got the just of what I'm saying (Thanos can dodge and react at FTL speeds, which is what I say would really matter in this fight if Superman tried to Speed Blitz him). Of course, you could have faster body speed than reaction time, but that'd get you a lot of injuries.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 19, 2006)

Rayman?

God damn, I was so frustrated with the first game when I was a lot younger.


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## Guy Gardner (Dec 19, 2006)

The new one is one of the most hilarious games I've ever played, and the mini-games are seriously challenging and fun. I really, really love it.


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## Orion (Dec 19, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Rayman?
> 
> God damn, I was so frustrated with the first game when I was a lot younger.



frustrated wouldnt even be the name for what i was when playing that game....i lost a couple controllers .


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## Vynjira (Dec 19, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Actually, Superman can go FTL in space.


Meanwhile Goku's on Earth waiting for his turn in the fight...


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## Orion (Dec 19, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> Meanwhile Goku's on Earth waiting for his turn in the fight...



no goku is in the after life because in the first 5 seconds of this fight he got teleported into a black hole or a star going supernova.


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## Thanatos (Dec 19, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> Meanwhile Goku's on Earth waiting for his turn in the fight...



You'd think Thanos and Supes would be more considerate.


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## Vynjira (Dec 19, 2006)

Mortalis said:


> You'd think Thanos and Supes would be more considerate.


If I were Thanos I'd be asking Goku for hair tips...


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## Dr.Douchebag (Dec 19, 2006)

Again guys why bother, whatever feats we show of regarding durability,speed,reaction time,psychic control, matter manipulation they won't accept it.

I'm not saying by any means that 100 out 100 times thanos will win, just a majority of the time because his powerlevels are at least those of supes( im being extremely conservative when i say that) and has a greater variety of powers.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 19, 2006)

Space said:
			
		

> As soon as you came back, I knew you would start mouthing off again.If you're suggesting that Goku's physical strength > Ki blasts, why doens't he just one hit punch planets? He could just IT to another planet and wish the old planet back with the Dragonballs right? You're reasoning is flawed like always.



Are you that dense? You have posted without thinking AGAIN! Goku SLAPS away Planet Busters and his PHYSICAL strength DAMAGES characters who can CASUALLY dismiss planet destroying blasts! Goku would NEVER intentionally destroy a damn planet you twit, your the only one mouthing off here! By the way, asking for a feat from a show based ENTIRELY around Martial arts is the dumbest thing ever. The only reasoning flawed around here is yours!



> We(yes we specifically) have been through this over 20 times.
> Ki = life force in the *DBZVERSE*
> Thanos = has life force, but does NOT have ki
> Understand?
> ...



Bwhahwhwhahaaha! what a terrible argument! first you say their is Life Force (ki) in DBZ and then go on too say Thanos HAS Life Force but NO Ki??!! bwhahahaha you just contradicted yourself. Ki=SPIRIT,Life Force, Soul!!!! every LIVING BEING has these! including Thanos.


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## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> It doesn't matter if he's looking their way. It's when the realization sets in that matters. That's when he actually starts dodging.



Well if he knew that they were there, he was aware of them, and you're right it's wen he realizes it that matters. But since he can't react at insane FTL speed, he should notice that SS' was on his way SOON after SS' takeoff. That's why I was explaining that you don't need to be FTL in you moves (that is moving your hands or similar) to dogde Silver Surfer when he a LIGHT YEAR away, and you had the ability to sense him at that great distance. With FTL reaction speed Thanos' should quickly be aware of the fact that SS started his travel, and he should have enough time to dogde SS without FTL speed.



> Anyways, what I meant was that not having ultra-fast movement speed doesn't mean you have slow reaction speeds. I think you got the just of what I'm saying (Thanos can dodge and react at FTL speeds, which is what I say would really matter in this fight if Superman tried to Speed Blitz him). Of course, you could have faster body speed than reaction time, but that'd get you a lot of injuries.



It was the FTL reaction speed for Thanos', his ability to sense light years away, AND the fact that SS was a GREAT distance away from him that allowed Thanos' to dogde, because he would have enough time from the moment he reacts to SS' takeoff to when SS actually reached hi, to make a move that makes him abel to dogde SS without moving his hand at superspeed.

What I'm saying is that those scans doesn't prove that Thanos' can move his muscles FTL, you would need to another event to actally prove that Thanos' CAN move his fists and whatsoever FTL.
BTW, you changed the argument. At the begining you were arguing about Thanos' being able to block/catch superspeed punches only because of his FTL reaction speed, and that Thanos' wasn't a superspeed fighter. I know that you're saying that even though Thanos' can't fly/run at superspeed, he still can move his HANDS and whatsoever FTL. You need to prove that. Because basing that argument upon the fact that he dogded SS, doesn't prove it, since as I already explained SS was over a light year away from him, and with Thanos' FTL reaction speed he could easily react to SS' start of travel, which would give him enough time to dogde without moving is hands FTL.
Because it's like the examples I gave earlier. If a rocket is traveling towards (let's now say) with a speed of 100 km/s, and you react/notice it when it's 500 km away, then you would have 5 seconds to dogde it. And your speed doesn't even need to be CLOSE to those 100 km/s to dogde that rocket.

EDIT: Because my point is that you need a different event/scan to show what you're trying to prove. Especially when by going with what we actally see from the scans, it suggest that SS slowed down to below the speed of light, since Thanos SAW him. Arguing that comic writers doesn't know basic logic/physic isn't a satisfying argument. Especially when they from time to time try to explain events in the comics by science.



Cyborg Superman said:


> Again guys why bother, whatever feats we show of regarding durability,speed,reaction time,psychic control, matter manipulation they won't accept it.



The only thing I'm arguing about is speed. I haven't said a word about the other factors.



> I'm not saying by any means that 100 out 100 times thanos will win, just a majority of the time because his powerlevels are at least those of supes( im being extremely conservative when i say that) and has a greater variety of powers.



I'm only arguing that if Thanos' can't move his muscles close to Superman's speed, then his not laying a finger on him nor catching him. Surly this should be obvious... Mayeb it only is from a neutral point of view?
Thanos' just have to beat Superman in a different way.


Thanos loses because Superman and Goku do a fusion and eat Thanos alive


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## Rice Ball (Dec 19, 2006)

I posted scans of Thanos meleeing with someone who moves FLS, i then posted scans of Thanos dodging someone moving 1000's of times faster than the speed of light, moving his Arms and Head.

Do you call moving your arms and head not using your muscles? 

No be honest your argument has nothing to stand on after that. You requested it and i provided it.


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## Dr.Douchebag (Dec 19, 2006)

lets just make a lucifer morningstar vs superman thread, imo supes will speedblitz him


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## Jay (Dec 19, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> Actually, my opinion makes perfect sense, since it's the one supported by the actual comic. Surfer was moving at Millions of times the speed of light. Thanos was able to dodge the move.


So now he has gone from thousands to millions the speed of light now?



> Your mistake is thinking that one has to always move at FTL to be able to react at FTL speeds. It's completely possible to not have the pure footspeed, but faster reaction times: Boxers have excellent reactions, but they aren't necessarily as fast as an olympic sprinter. FTL Movement isn't necessary for FTL Reactions.


 So your comparing a boxer's reaction to a sprinters speed for this, there is a massive difference between somebody who can move millions of time FTL to somebody that can react maybe FTL, using a boxer compared with a sprinter is nothing in comparison to this.
And Im not taking sides here in this debate Im just pointing out that it doesn't make sense that Thanos is able to see and react to somebody moving million's of times FTL. 



> *If you can find some, you know, actual proof to support your opinion*, then show it. But the scans show that Thanos dodged an attack that was going millions of times the speed of light. Not Surfer slowing down. Not Surfer _missing_. It showed Thanos _dodging_.


Proof to support my opinion? I have you admiting it in the quote box below  



> He didn't sense him from far away. Like you said, the first realization we see from Thanos is when we see the light (*Yes, it is a plot hole*. Comic book writers were never fantastic on physics... )


Now please shut up


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## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

I'm back, someone update me on Phenomen - lol's latest bullshit so I can shoot it down.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 19, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> I'm back, someone update me on Phenomen - lol's latest bullshit so I can shoot it down.



not much tbh
at the moment hes only talking about Goku's IT ability, nothing like Goku's punch destroys Galaxys etc


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## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

Try reminding him that Thanos has teleportation too as part of his standard equipment.


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## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> I posted scans of Thanos meleeing with someone who moves FLS, i then posted scans of Thanos dodging someone moving 1000's of times faster than the speed of light, moving his Arms and Head.



I highly suggest you read my replies through. I argued about all of that, but you haven't countered the arguments yet.



> Do you call moving your arms and head not using your muscles?



Where did I state that? You must've misunderstood that.



> No be honest your argument has nothing to stand on after that. You requested it and i provided it.



I argued about the scans. You haven't answered them.


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## Jay (Dec 19, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> I'm back, someone update me on Phenomen - lol's latest bullshit so I can shoot it down.


Why do you see Phenom as your eternal rival or something  .


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## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Why do see Phenom as your eternal rival or something  .



He's bored.


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## Kai (Dec 19, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Are you that dense? You have posted without thinking AGAIN! Goku SLAPS away Planet Busters and his PHYSICAL strength DAMAGES characters who can CASUALLY dismiss planet destroying blasts!


Slaps away planet busters? Wth? Is there a DBZ the abridged series?
Did Goku slap away Frieza's death ball? Did he slap away Cell's attack on Gohan? Did he slap way Kid Buu's ki bomb to the Earth? Casually? He had to teleport to the Kai's world( a last resort) to escape. 

If Goku's physical strength was all that, there would be no need for him learn new ki techniques. He wouldn't need to waste his ki, when by your logic, he could just IT in front of them and punch them to death. If Goku's punch was planet-threatening, he would have destroyed it while in SSJ3 form. 



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> ! By the way, asking for a feat from a show based ENTIRELY around Martial arts is the dumbest thing ever. The only reasoning flawed around here is yours!



Stop the flaming. You just got back, and that's all you're doing? DBZ has faded from the martial arts like Dragonball, which is why I dislike it more. If DBZ was so centered around Martial arts, they wouldn't be teleporting everywhere, dealing explosions everywhere, piercing death beams through people's chests, turning people into candy, destroying planets, and fusing with earrings. That's far from  martial arts.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku would NEVER intentionally destroy a damn planet you twit, your the only one mouthing off here


I'm responding to your arguments and barely hanging with your constant flaming. Goku hesitates to do the Spirit Bomb in fear of destroying the planet, but he CASUALLY punches away. He does thousands of punches, none of them NEAR planet busters. What makes you think that you(although obviously NO evidence shown) have the power to decide that Goku can destroy Earth in a punch?



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Bwhahwhwhahaaha! what a terrible argument! first you say their is Life Force (ki) in DBZ and then go on too say Thanos HAS Life Force but NO Ki??!! bwhahahaha you just contradicted yourself. Ki=SPIRIT,Life Force, Soul!!!! every LIVING BEING has these! including Thanos.


Only my 10 year old cousin would say that.
Ki is a type of Life force. It's not a scientific law to everyone outside the DBZverse. Why can't you see that?

Why don't you see people saying ki instead of life? OMG My grandma's Ki is going to end! 
OMG I HATE MY KI
MY KI  IS RUINED BECAUSE OF YOU

No, Phenomenol. You've been refuted. The more you reply back, the farther backwards you're going.


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## Hamaru (Dec 19, 2006)

> Only my 10 year old cousin would say that.
> Ki is a type of Life force. It's not a scientific law to everyone outside the DBZverse. Why can't you see that?
> 
> Why don't you see people saying ki instead of life? OMG My grandma's Ki is going to end!
> ...



LMAO , I do agree with you though. DBZ stopped the martail arts and just moved to Ki, moving fast, and a whole lot of yelling.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Why do you see Phenom as your eternal rival or something.



No, "rival" would actually imply that he's competent.

"Punching bag" would be more appropriate.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

> ! By the way, asking for a feat from a show based ENTIRELY around Martial arts is the dumbest thing ever. The only reasoning flawed around here is yours!



LOL.

Using this logic, I might as well claim that the guys from Hikaru no Go can destroy planets, and when asked for proof say "Asking for a feat of planet - destroying from a show based around a board game is stupid!"


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## Rice Ball (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> I highly suggest you read my replies through. I argued about all of that, but you haven't countered the arguments yet.
> 
> Where did I state that? You must've misunderstood that.
> 
> I argued about the scans. You haven't answered them.



None of your replies warrented answering.
Each of them like 'Thanos Muscles can't react in time' were answered in the scans i posted and information others posted.

Its crystal clear, i don't see what people issue with movement speed v Thanos is.


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## Kai (Dec 19, 2006)

Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Why do you see Phenom as your eternal rival or something



He's not just caused me and Mike, but has attracted lots of hate towards him.

As long as he presents how Goku would win in a non-malicious way, nothing can really be done.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

I always find it funny that people claim that characters will be too slow to hit DBZ characters when we don't even know how fast DBZ characters are.


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## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> None of your replies warrented answering.
> Each of them like 'Thanos Muscles can't react in time' were answered in the scans i posted and information others posted.
> 
> Its crystal clear, i don't see what people issue with movement speed v Thanos is.



Obviously you just ignored my my examples of how Thanos would be able to dogde with even being close to SS' speed in his movements.
Besides that, Thanos could SEE Silver Surfer, which proves that SS must've reduced his speed.

Again, I suggest you read my replies and try understanding them, if some lines aren't clear enough, I can maybe try to make it more simple to understand.
You're doing nothing but ignoring my arguments, and hence starting from scratch by refering to the scans...


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> I always find it funny that people claim that characters will be too slow to hit DBZ characters when we don't even know how fast DBZ characters are.



Then why not just label their arguments as personal oppinions and speculations?


----------



## Jay (Dec 19, 2006)

Space said:


> He's not just caused me and Mike, but has attracted lots of hate towards him.
> 
> As long as he presents how Goku would win in a non-malicious way, nothing can really be done.


I was joking   I know yourself and mike and phenom dont like each other, but come on hate is abit of a strong word, it's a cartoon forum  



Endless Mike said:


> I always find it funny that people claim that characters will be too slow to hit DBZ characters when we don't even know how fast DBZ characters are.


Who exactly are you talking about in here? because non of us are even talking about that, we are mainly on about how Thanos was able to dodge surfer, and you of all people should no there comic book characters.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Obviously you just ignored my my examples of how Thanos would be able to dogde with even being close to SS' speed in his movements.
> Besides that, Thanos could SEE Silver Surfer, which proves that SS must've reduced his speed.



Or, you know, we chalk it up to Thanos' cosmic awareness, which is a power he is known to have.

Why would Surfer decrease his speed? That makes no sense.



> Then why not just label their arguments as personal oppinions and speculations?



That's pretty much what most of them are.



> Who exactly are you talking about in here? because non of us are even talking about that, we are mainly on about how Thanos was able to dodge surfer, and you of all people should no there comic book characters.



It was just a comment on a general trend I had noticed.


----------



## Dr.Douchebag (Dec 19, 2006)

mike,rice ball,vlad :

lucifer morningstar vs superman?


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

Cyborg Superman said:


> mike,rice ball,vlad :
> 
> lucifer morningstar vs superman?



I bet if I really tried I could come up with a plausible sounding but still completely wrong argument for why Superman would win....


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Or, you know, we chalk it up to Thanos' cosmic awareness, which is a power he is known to have.
> 
> Why would Surfer decrease his speed? That makes no sense.



Yes, Thanos was also aware of them.
In the bottom of , Thanos sees SS, as the flash of light from SS has reached his eye, suggesting that SS wasn't flying FTL from some close distance.
But I'm sure that you understand, that to dogde an object traveling towards you with a certain speed, you don't need to be anywhere near the speed of the object, if you can react to it from a great distance. As Thanos could do, since he, as you also apoint, had cosmic awareness which allowed him to be able to know that SS even being a light year away started moving.


----------



## Dr.Douchebag (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Yes, Thanos was also aware of them.
> In the bottom of ,
> But I'm sure that you understand, that to dogde an object traveling towards you with a certain speed, you don't need to be anywhere near the speed of the object, if you can react to it from a great distance. As Thanos could do, since he, as you also apoint, had cosmic awareness which allowed him to be able to know that SS even being a light year away started moving.



But by that logic thanos can dodge supes as he does'nt need to be as fast as supes.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Yes, Thanos was also aware of them.
> In the bottom of , Thanos sees SS, as the flash of light from SS has reached his eye, suggesting that SS wasn't flying FTL from some close distance.
> But I'm sure that you understand, that to dogde an object traveling towards you with a certain speed, you don't need to be anywhere near the speed of the object, if you can react to it from a great distance. As Thanos could do, since he, as you also apoint, had cosmic awareness which allowed him to be able to know that SS even being a light year away started moving.



Cosmic awareness essentially allows you to hear things before the sound has reached you, and see things before the light has reached you. That glint doesn't mean that light is travelling ahead of the Surfer and reaching his eye, it means Thanos is percieving him with his cosmic senses.

The whole plan was for Surfer to move as fast as possible to grab the gauntlet before Thanos could react. Why the hell would he slow to sublight speed just as he was approaching?


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 19, 2006)

Space said:


> Slaps away planet busters? Wth? Is there a DBZ the abridged series? Did Goku slap away Frieza's death ball? Did he slap away Cell's attack on Gohan? Did he slap way Kid Buu's ki bomb to the Earth? Casually? He had to teleport to the Kai's world( a last resort) to escape. If Goku's physical strength was all that, there would be no need for him learn new ki techniques. He wouldn't need to waste his ki, when by your logic, he could just IT in front of them and punch them to death. If Goku's punch was planet-threatening, he would have destroyed it while in SSJ3 form. Stop the flaming. You just got back, and that's all you're doing? I'm responding to your arguments and barely hanging with your constant flaming. Goku hesitates to do the Spirit Bomb in fear of destroying the planet, but he CASUALLY punches away. He does thousands of punches, none of them NEAR planet busters. What makes you think that you(although obviously NO evidence shown) have the power to decide that Goku can destroy Earth in a punch?
> 
> Only my 10 year old cousin would say that.
> Ki is a type of Life force. It's not a scientific law to everyone outside the DBZverse. Why can't you see that?
> ...



You have NO idea what you are talking about, yet you think you actually think your responding to an argument. I never said that Goku can punch planets with his fists quit putting words in my mouth, my argument was never concerning that. Goku's PUNCHES PULVERIZE characters who are more DURABLE than planets!! I don't need a damn diagram (like you) to see that. My argument was that Goku has the hitting power to damage Superman and Thanos! Goku would NEVER punch a damn planet intentionally! you don't even know anything about the character you are debating against nor the series for that matter. 

Ki is ANOTHER word for spirit!!! the word spirit has been used in dragonball as well to define Ki! Chakra in Naruto is ANOTHER way of saying spirit, soul!!! Do you think the Authors would just outright have their characters say Spirit all of the time? It is called CREATIVITY for crying out loud.....Spirit is Ki and every living being has it. 



> DBZ has faded from the martial arts like Dragonball, which is why I dislike it more. If DBZ was so centered around Martial arts, they wouldn't be teleporting everywhere, dealing explosions everywhere, piercing death beams through people's chests, turning people into candy, destroying planets, and fusing with earrings. That's far from  martial arts



Bwhahahaha Are You are seriously saying that Dragonball is NOT about martial arts? Are you the biggest IDIOT in the history of world? Were you busy drooling over pictures of Cars or too busy looking at the clouds instead of watching the TV when Dragon ball was on? LOL! All of those ADDED techniques that you mentioned are based on ki and the Z fighters Martial art skills and techniques have always been based around it.



and please stop saying "Your arguments are going backwards" at least until you actually post something that is not from your own bias.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I always find it funny that people claim that characters will be too slow to hit DBZ characters when we don't even know how fast DBZ characters are



Oh....Iam sorry are you the guy who ALWAYS OVEREXAGERATES Thanos feats! saying he has faster than light reflexes..LOL! and lying about his "INCREDIBLE" battles he has had.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Cyborg Superman said:


> But by that logic thanos can dodge supes as he does'nt need to be as fast as supes.



Am I representing my example so unclear that noone understands my point? Didn't anyone notice that I said "_from a great distance_"?
I'll try one last time to explain it.
Assume that some object is a light year away from you. Then assume that you somehow get the information that the object started moving towards your head (to be specific) and will reach you in 5 seconds. Now you would have 5 second to react and then start move. Then if the reaction time for your brain to proces and analyse that information is, let's say, 2 seconds, you would have 3 seconds to move. If you had to move your head 1 meter to avoid being hit, then you would only require a speed of 1/3 m/s to dogde that projectile. The speed of projectile would be about 6 millions times the speed of light. But the speed you would need to dogde the projectile in that scenario is NO WHERE near the speed of the projectile. So by dogding the projectile it doesn't mean that you're even close to the speed of the projectile.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Oh....Iam sorry are you the guy who ALWAYS OVEREXAGERATES Thanos feats! saying he has faster than light reflexes..LOL!



How else do you explain the fact that he consistently tags FTL people?



> and lying about his "INCREDIBLE" battles he has had.



Yes, because taking on Odin, a guy who destroys galaxies as a side - effect of his fights, and knocking back Galactus, taking hits from Omega, going toe - to - toe with Tyrant, are not incredible?

Of course, you wouldn't think so, because you think Flash battling Zoom all around the world wasn't even fighting.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Am I representing my example so unclear that noone understands my point? Didn't anyone notice that I said "_from a great distance_"?
> I'll try one last time to explain it.
> Assume that some object is a light year away from you. Then assume that you somehow get the information that the object started moving towards your head (to be specific) and will reach you in 5 seconds. Now you would have 5 second to react and then start move. Then if the reaction time for your brain to proces and analyse that information is, let's say, 2 seconds, you would have 3 seconds to move. If you had to move your head 1 meter to avoid being hit, then you would only require a speed of 1/3 m/s to dogde that projectile. The speed of projectile would be about 6 millions times the speed of light. But the speed you would need to dogde the projectile in that scenario is NO WHERE near the speed of the projectile. So by dogding the projectile it doesn't mean that you're even close to the speed of the projectile.



Surfer only took one second, and Thanos didn't notice him until he was practically on top of him anyway.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 19, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> So now he has gone from thousands to millions the speed of light now?



Calculate someone crossing a light year in the process of a few seconds. I already did the calculations in an above post, but you probably missed it.




> So your comparing a boxer's reaction to a sprinters speed for this, there is a massive difference between somebody who can move millions of time FTL to somebody that can react maybe FTL, using a boxer compared with a sprinter is nothing in comparison to this.



*Sigh*

Nice try, but you fail. I wasn't making a speed comparison, I was explaining that slow ground speed does not necessitate slow reactions. A boxer has faster reactions than a sprinter, but the sprinter has faster ground speed. Fast reactions =/= Fast ground speed.

Do you need help in making an actual comparison? Or do you have your mommy nearby?



> And Im not taking sides here in this debate Im just pointing out that it doesn't make sense that Thanos is able to see and react to somebody moving million's of times FTL.



He didn't see. He sensed.



> Proof to support my opinion? I have you admiting it in the quote box below



Explain why he'd slow down past millions of times, why he'd even start that far out to begin with only to slow down that much, and then I'll concede it. Plus the gleam could easily be Thanos realizing what was going on, along with a variety of things. The fact of the matter remains: Thanos dodged him with FTL reaction speed.



> Now please shut up



OMG FLAME! HE TOLD ME TO SHUT UP!

Anyways, people: If he can react to Surfer going that fast, he has FTL reactions. Even if he knew he was there, he didn't know he was coming until he was almost to the place itself.


----------



## Kai (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Yes, Thanos was also aware of them.
> In the bottom of , Thanos sees SS, as the flash of light from SS has reached his eye, suggesting that SS wasn't flying FTL from some close distance.
> But I'm sure that you understand, that to dogde an object traveling towards you with a certain speed, you don't need to be anywhere near the speed of the object, if you can react to it from a great distance. As Thanos could do, since he, as you also apoint, had cosmic awareness which allowed him to be able to know that SS even being a light year away started moving.



SS stated that he was 1 lightyear away from Thanos... you know how much is a lightyear don't you? He was well traveling FTL.


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Obviously you just ignored my my examples of how Thanos would be able to dogde with even being close to SS' speed in his movements.
> Besides that, Thanos could SEE Silver Surfer, which proves that SS must've reduced his speed.
> 
> Again, I suggest you read my replies and try understanding them, if some lines aren't clear enough, I can maybe try to make it more simple to understand.
> You're doing nothing but ignoring my arguments, and hence starting from scratch by refering to the scans...



Others have answered them to a statisfactory standard (completely rubbishing them).
All this shows is you haven't read infinity gauntlet and don't know what the hell is going on.

All this comes down to is Superman will not be able to speedblitz Thanos, yes he'd have a speed advantage but Thanos can deal with him like other speedsters hes faught.


----------



## Jay (Dec 19, 2006)

> Justice And Rule said:
> 
> 
> > Calculate someone crossing a light year in the process of a few seconds. I already did the calculations in an above post, but you probably missed it.
> ...


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 19, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> How else do you explain the fact that he consistently tags FTL people? Yes, because taking on Odin, a guy who destroys galaxies as a side - effect of his fights, and knocking back Galactus, taking hits from Omega, going toe - to - toe with Tyrant, are not incredible?



Here we go again! Overexageration.... After you search the net..LOL!Give me the Issue and series please of where Odin has destroyed a Galaxy! Thanos CHEAP shotted Galactus it was nothing more than a SURPRISE attack, and he took nothing from Omega you mean his Three shields and his armor too the blast and "BARELY" survived. An AUGMENTED Thanos was getting his ass kicked by Tyrant and even commented that he was going to die if the battled continued.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> How else do you explain the fact that he consistently tags FTL people?



There is no proof of, that they actually fight at FTL speeds.



Endless Mike said:


> Surfer only took one second, and Thanos didn't notice him until he was practically on top of him anyway.



No time was stated on those scans.
The second statement can't be supported by the informations given in those scans. There is no way to tell that.


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> There is no proof of, that they actually fight at FTL speeds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Traveling a lightyear in less than 1 seconds (The time it look Thanos to raise his hand to strike Captain America)
Thats alot faster than the speed of light.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 19, 2006)

Riceball, Stop using an AUGMENTED Thanos for speed feats! He was using ALL of the Gems powers!


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Here we go again! Overexageration.... After you search the net..LOL!Give me the Issue and series please of where Odin has destroyed a Galaxy!



Journey into Mystery #512 - 13.












In case you're having trouble reading, I present some highlights:

"A massive shockwave which ripples across every plane of reality!"
"So great, so awesome is the cosmic conflagration that is is even visible to the inhabitants of earth!" (keep in mind Asgard is in another dimension).
"I sense a great upheavel which is tearing at the very fabric of the multiverse! A cosmic calamity which could imperil untold galaxies!"
"Forces powerful enough to rock our entire continuum are in conflict!"
"Suddenly I had this image of the universe in my mind, and it was screaming in mortal agony! It was like watching the death throes of reality as we know it!"
"Though the battle appears to be a simple slugfest, it is simultaneously waged on every plane of existence! Long - dead *galaxies are shattered*! Distant dying suns are reignited!"

And to top it all of, Odin was weakened througout most of this fight.



> Thanos CHEAP shotted Galactus it was nothing more than a SURPRISE attack



The fact that he was able to knock a (well - fed) Galactus off his feet, send him careening across a moon, and blast his helmet off is testament enough to his power.

You know who else once "Cheap - shotted" Galactus? Beta Ray Bill. You know, the guy who destroys planets as a side - effect of his fights, puts up a fight against Astaroth, who was a potential multiversal threat and destroyed planets just by flying past them, and battles in black holes?

You know what happened when he "cheap - shotted" Galactus?

He made a tiny chink in Galactus' armor, then Galactus squashed him like a bug. And this was only a moderately - fed Galactus, as opposed to the much stronger state Big G was in when Thanos attacked him.



> and he took nothing from Omega you mean his Three shields and his armor too the blast and "BARELY" survived.



Those are part of his standard equipment. Goku or Superman would have been atomized instantly.



> An AUGMENTED Thanos was getting his ass kicked by Tyrant and even commented that he was going to die if the battled continued.



You keep claiming this, but no matter how many times I ask you for a scan, you never provide. SHOW A SCAN WHERE THANOS SAYS HE WAS GOING TO DIE AGAINST TYRANT.

Thanos was augmented only by Morg's power, which is much less than his own, and he was fighting evenly with Tyrant. The same Tyrant who had earlier taken out Surfer, Gladiator, Morg, Terrax, that Spinster girl who could attack at lightspeed, and probably some other people I don't remember.


----------



## Kai (Dec 19, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> It is what EXACTLY it is..... a SUGGESTION! I didn't say that Goku CAN shatter a planet with his fists, I am suggesting that he has GREAT hitting power.You have yet to show me where I SPECIFICALLY said DBZ characters can shatter planets with their fisits.


Wth? Can, even YOU not see you were totally implying it when you responded back to CBG? Oh, wait what am I thinking, this is PHENOMENOL I'm talking to.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Oh I don't know could it be that they were ANDROIDS, Could it have been the part where Gohan says they are Androids and they can NOT sense their SPIRIT!!!!


Give me a reason, now. I'm asking for a specific answer why the Z warriors could not sense the Androids. 



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> As for your ridiculous "Dragonball Z is NOT about Martial arts anymore" argument! All that planet exploding and turning people into candy is just an *ADDED ability *that goes ALONG with their Martial Arts. Anybody with half a brain cell knows Dragonball Z uses Martial arts in their battles. It is an established fact since Dragonball and DBZ is a CONTINUATION of Dragonball.....yeah I am sure Goku stopped using methods that he has been training with his whole ENTIRE career....LOL!


Added ability then no longer has made it a series revolving around the martial arts.
You see in Dragonball they even have moves based on the martial arts, like Wolfing Fist and DoDonpa. There were many explanations for the techniques shown. Off topic, but what are you squawking about, Goku's career? He doesn't have a damn career.
And yeah, I'm pretty sure there are some methods Goku would stop using since Dragonball DUH. Like how he stops using Kaio-Ken after he gains SSJ, it's not like he's going to continue the same tactics that he used in Dragonball or else he would get raped and the Earth would be destroyed.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku slaps away Freeza's death beam and even took one in the face! Do you need me to name other characters that are WEAKER than Goku who have CASUALLY SLAPPED away planet busters?


Dude, you think EVERY move in DBZ is a planet buster. Freeza's death ball was a planet buster, not his DEATH BEAM. The death beam pierced vegeta's armor and chest, that's all. It's far from destroying Namek. If so, he would've done so instead of using the Death ball.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> You claim you seen DBZ... but you have yet to show it in your posts. You don't know what you are talking about....and yet you say Goku can't do something without ANY proof at all. Dragonball is judged always by what they do in COMBAT (that is what Dragonball is) not by going around pushing planets and saving people from trees in a split second. Every damn feat is done in combat for them.



Don't even go there. What Goku(or any other character for that matter) demonstrates in DBZ is completely different than what you analyze in your mysterious brain. Frieza's death beam is a planet buster, Goku's physical attacks are planet busters, everyone outside of the DBZverse has ki, which is a compilation of Phenomenol's total nonsense.
Make sense, or just surrender these points because they are all lost. You are blindly just speaking what's on top of your head.


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 19, 2006)

Bullet said the same thing so i posted the Battle earlyer in this thread.
He doesn't at any point say he is going to die


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> It is what EXACTLY it is..... a SUGGESTION! I didn't say that Goku CAN shatter a planet with his fists, I am suggesting that he has GREAT hitting power.You have yet to show me where I SPECIFICALLY said DBZ characters can shatter planets with their fisits.



Should I point out in the Cell Saga, where Cell punched the ground, and _nothing happened_?

Or when Picollo fought 17, and they were constantly slamming each other into the ground with their full physical force, and the most they did was create 30 - meter diameter craters? 



> Oh I don't know could it be that they were ANDROIDS, Could it have been the part where Gohan says they are Androids and they can NOT sense their SPIRIT!!!!



Yet Doctor Gero (android 20) had a human brain, androids 17 and 18 were really just humans with cybernetic components....

If installing cybernetic components to your body makes you undetectable to DBZ ki senses, then Thanos would be undetectable as well, since he uses technology built into parts of his body.



> As for your ridiculous "Dragonball Z is NOT about Martial arts anymore" argument! All that planet exploding and turning people into candy is just an ADDED ability that goes ALONG with their Martial Arts. Anybody with half a brain cell knows Dragonball Z uses Martial arts in their battles. It is an established fact since Dragonball and DBZ is a CONTINUATION of Dragonball.....yeah I am sure Goku stopped using methods that he has been training with his whole ENTIRE career....LOL!



Care to then show me some actual scans of him, post - Frieza - saga, doing real martial arts in combat?



> Goku slaps away Freeza's death beam and even took one in the face! Do you need me to name other characters that are WEAKER than Goku who have CASUALLY SLAPPED away planet busters?



Freiza's death beam is a planet buster? Is that why it kept hitting the rocks and creating small explosions, or why Cell used it on Gohan, who dodged it, and it just burned a small hole through the rock behind him? 



> You claim you seen DBZ... but you have yet to show it in your posts. You don't know what you are talking about....and yet you say Goku can't do something without ANY proof at all.



Burden of proof is on you to prove he *can* do it. Or else I can ask you to prove that Thanos doesn't have "Anti - Saiyajin vision".



> Dragonball is judged always by what they do in COMBAT (that is what Dragonball is) not by going around pushing planets and saving people from trees in a split second. Every damn feat is done in combat for them.



Then explain how these feats in COMBAT(tm) will let him win the battle.

You want feats in combat? Thanos defeats entire planets of warriors for his morning workout.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> There is no proof of, that they actually fight at FTL speeds.



Right, because travelling a light - year in one second isn't FTL, and many confirmed FTL showings before of people like Mar-Vell, Surfer, and Eros mean nothing. 

lt





> No time was stated on those scans.
> The second statement can't be supported by the informations given in those scans. There is no way to tell that.



So you really think it took the Surfer an entire year to reach Thanos?

I suppose Thanos and Captain America just stood there for a year doing nothing while Surfer was en route.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Others have answered them to a statisfactory standard (completely rubbishing them).
> All this shows is you haven't read infinity gauntlet and don't know what the hell is going on.[/quoted]
> 
> No they didn't... I clearly argued that you can't conclude Thanos moves FTL from those scans. I explained several times why Thanos dogding SS doesn't imply Thanos can move FTL. Read it again (if you even read it before). However, I do believe he has super reaction speed. In addition Thanos had cosmic awareness as some of you already mentioned, which would allow to know when SS started moving even though SS was over a light year away.
> ...


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 19, 2006)

And it was complete bullshit, other people had already trashed it so i didn't bother.

Thanos clearly didn't see him incoming as he DULLED his cosmic awareness, he might have known where surfer was to start with, but theres no way his cosmic awareness him coming. Thanos himself stated he dulled it to make the battle more fair, Eros then said Thanos was speaking the truth when Hulk and Drax hit him from behind.

Thanos would have seen him at the last moment

Go buy infinity gauntlet, if you had bothered reading about the character your claim 'can't do something' then you would have already known this. I've had enough of posting scans requested from people who don't know sod all about the characters.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

He reacted to an FTL attack. Your point about him noticing Surfer before he got there is moot, since as shown in the panel, Surfer was already only a few hundred meters from Thanos' space - palace - fort - place - thing when Thanos noticed him. He reacted in that time.


----------



## Jay (Dec 19, 2006)

> Endless Mike said:
> 
> 
> > Right, because travelling a light - year in one second isn't FTL, and many confirmed FTL showings before of people like Mar-Vell, Surfer, and Eros mean nothing.
> ...


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> > Where does it say 1 second?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 19, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> > Where does it say 1 second?
> >
> > No he isn't saying that  , he is saying where doe's it say this on the scan's
> 
> ...


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> He reacted to an FTL attack. Your point about him noticing Surfer before he got there is moot, since as shown in the panel, Surfer was already only a few hundred meters from Thanos' space - palace - fort - place - thing when Thanos noticed him. He reacted in that time.



You're telling that Thanos first noticed SS that late, when he to begin with could sense him while he was a light year away??



Endless Mike said:


> Right, because travelling a light - year in one second isn't FTL, and many confirmed FTL showings before of people like Mar-Vell, Surfer, and Eros mean nothing.
> 
> So you really think it took the Surfer an entire year to reach Thanos?
> 
> ...



I'm not trying to argue that SS didn't travel FTL, only that Thanos didn't move FTL.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Thats exactly what he is saying.
> Lift your soding arm in the air and time the ammount of time it took for it to drop. There you go!



Yes, and having about 1 second to move isn't even close to a FTL movement.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 19, 2006)

> Give me a reason, now. I'm asking for a specific answer why the Z warriors could not sense the Androids.



They are machines!! they have no spirit...so they could NOT be sensed.




> Added ability then no longer has made it a series revolving around the martial arts.
> You see in Dragonball they even have moves based on the martial arts, like Wolfing Fist and DoDonpa. There were many explanations for the techniques shown. Off topic, but what are you squawking about, Goku's career? He doesn't have a damn career.
> And yeah, I'm pretty sure there are some methods Goku would stop using since Dragonball DUH. Like how he stops using Kaio-Ken after he gains SSJ, it's not like he's going to continue the same tactics that he used in Dragonball or else he would get raped and the Earth would be destroyed.



Still doesn't change the fact that they are Martial artists and that is a proven fact......



> Don't even go there. What Goku(or any other character for that matter) demonstrates in DBZ is completely different than what you analyze in your mysterious brain. Frieza's death beam is a planet buster, Goku's physical attacks are planet busters, everyone outside of the DBZverse has ki, which is a compilation of Phenomenol's total nonsense.
> Make sense, or just surrender these points because they are all lost. You are blindly just speaking what's on top of your head.



Wrong! Freeza a guy that Goku could SMASH with his toe was SLAPPING off planet busters like NOTHING!! a much more POWERFUL Goku can do the same.....period. My argument is that Goku has the physical strength to hurt Supes and Thanos.


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Yes, and having about 1 second to move isn't even close to a FTL movement.



You asked how long Surfer took to travel 1 lightyear and i have provided you with the answer. I also notice you haven't bother replying to that other post, point conceeded i guess?


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 19, 2006)

> Journey into Mystery #512 - 13.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I knew you would post the Odin vs. Seth scan! Guess what Odin AND Seth COMBINED were destroying Galaxies not Odin by himself. Also Thanos NEVER fought a FULLY grown Odin at FULL power...like I told you Odin was holding back against the purple Monkey.

As for the rest of your post is filled with nothing but excuses, Thanos was AUGMENTED or using TECHNOLOGY..Thanos can NOT just straight out brawl with any powerful foe to the END, he is a prep time whore......nothing more.


----------



## SoulTaker (Dec 19, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> They are machines!! they have no spirit...so they could NOT be sensed.



They're only half machine,they still have human parts unlike Android 16.




Phenomenol said:


> Still doesn't change the fact that they are Martial artists and that is a proven fact......




They are but they seem to move away from that aspect of their fighting and more into the energy aspect.One can look at it as if they conquered the physical means of combat and moved onto the more spiritual/energy base form of it.




Phenomenol said:


> Wrong! Freeza a guy that Goku could SMASH with his toe was shruggig off planet busters like NOTHING!! a much more POWERFUL Goku can do the same.....period. My argument is that Goku has the physical strength to hurt Supes and Thanos.



When did Freeza shrug off planet busters like nothing?And a much more powerful Goku got killed by a planet buster.He probably could hurt them a bit,but just because I can punch Jermain Taylor and hurt doesn't mean I'm going to win in a fight.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> You asked how long Surfer took to travel 1 lightyear and i have provided you with the answer. I also notice you haven't bother replying to that other post, point conceeded i guess?



That shows that SS is FTL, which I don't disagree with, but it doesn't prove that Thanos moved FTL, which I already explained why, but you have answered that. It was simple logic.
Let me try explain it another way. If a you want to cross the highway, and you spot a car from a certain distance. And you managed to cross the road before the car hits you. Does that imply you can move faster than the car?


----------



## SoulTaker (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Yes, and having about 1 second to move isn't even close to a FTL movement.



When you travel a light year in a second thats FTL.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:


> And a much more powerful Goku got killed by a planet buster.He probably could hurt them a bit,but just because I can punch Jermain Taylor and hurt doesn't mean I'm going to win in a fight.



That attack wasn't just a planet buster, it was stronger, since otherwise it would've implied that imperfect Cell who was WAY more powerful than Freeza at best could destroy the planet


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 19, 2006)

Androids as machines with no spirits?

Then how were they even resurrected?


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:


> When you travel a light year in a second thats FTL.



Is my english really that bad ???
If you had followed the discussion then you would know that I was talking about Thanos. SS without doubt moved FTL (I wonder how many times I repeated this now?).


----------



## SoulTaker (Dec 19, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> I knew you would post the Odin vs. Seth scan! Guess what Odin AND Seth COMBINED were destroying Galaxies not Odin by himself. Also Thanos NEVER fought a FULLY grown Odin at FULL power...like I told you Odin was holding back against the purple Monkey.
> 
> As for the rest of your post is filled with nothing but excuses, Thanos was AUGMENTED or using TECHNOLOGY..Thanos can NOT just straight out brawl with any powerful foe to the END, he is a prep time whore......nothing more.



The galaxies were collateral damage in their fight,a lot like how that "mountain" was collateral damage in Goku vs Vegeta.

Except Thanos' technology is standard for him.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> You're telling that Thanos first noticed SS that late, when he to begin with could sense him while he was a light year away??



Yes, because that's what the comic shows.



> I'm not trying to argue that SS didn't travel FTL, only that Thanos didn't move FTL.



Then you would be wrong.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Are you guys using this so argue that galaxies were being shattered as a sideeffect of their power?
The only thing stated about that is more like a metaphor,

_Long-Dead galaxies are shattered! Distant dying sins are reignited!_

"Long-dead galaxies"??? That sounds more like a metaphor.
And why was the planet they were fighting on not destroyed?


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> I knew you would post the Odin vs. Seth scan! Guess what Odin AND Seth COMBINED were destroying Galaxies not Odin by himself.



Yes, *Galaxies*. Plural. Which means more than one. As in, he can destroy at least one by himself.



> Also Thanos NEVER fought a FULLY grown Odin at FULL power...like I told you Odin was holding back against the purple Monkey.



Is that why he brought out one of his most powerful weapons? 



> As for the rest of your post is filled with nothing but excuses, Thanos was AUGMENTED or using TECHNOLOGY..



His technology is standard equipment. He has it for this match.



> Thanos can NOT just straight out brawl with any powerful foe to the END, he is a prep time whore......nothing more.



Bullshit. I've repeatedly shown him slugging it out with the heavyweights, and you just ignore it.


----------



## SoulTaker (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> That attack wasn't just a planet buster, it was stronger, since otherwise it would've implied that imperfect Cell who was WAY more powerful than Freeza at best could destroy the planet



It was a planet buster,a stated planet buster,nothing more,nothing less.Show some proof it would have taken out more than a planet.And just because Imperfect Cell was way stronger doesn't mean he can destroy more than a planet,because the next order would be Solar System,Star,or Galaxy and he wasnt packing enough for more than maybe a star.

Sorry I missed the part where you said Surfer was FTL,but I see it now.I kind of just decided to jump into this,so I apologize if I miss anything.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Are you guys using this so argue that galaxies were being shattered as a sideeffect of their power?
> The only thing stated about that is more like a metaphor,
> 
> _Long-Dead galaxies are shattered! Distant dying sins are reignited!_
> ...



Yeah, that "sounds like a metaphor". Despite the fact we have tons of characters like Silver Surfer, Doctor Strange, Phoenix (who are all experienced with cosmic threats) yelling out that it's doomsday.

And they were fighting in Asgard. Not a planet, a magical dimension.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 19, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Yes, *Galaxies*. Plural. Which means more than one. As in, he can destroy at least one by himself. Bullshit. I've repeatedly shown him slugging it out with the heavyweights, and you just ignore it.



Pure speculation! Until shown or proven otherwise Odin did NOT destroy a Galaxy by himself. That was more like a metaphor.... Not to mention it was ONLY their own Magical pocket DIMENSION which you fail to mention....You have ONLY shown a PARTIAL truth to Thanos fights...which I had to completely bring to light.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Pure speculation! Until shown or proven otherwise Odin did NOT destroy a Galaxy by himself. That was more like a metaphor.... Not to mention it was ONLY their own Magical pocket DIMENSION which you fail to mention....You have ONLY shown a PARTIAL truth to Thanos fights...which I had to completely bring to light.



This is getting annoying.

Let's go over this again:

1. Both of the combined destroyed multiple galaxies.
2. That means Each one can destroy at least one galaxy.
3. This was collateral damage, so either one could destroy much more directly.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 19, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> This is getting annoying.
> 
> Let's go over this again:
> 
> ...



In their own MAGICAL pocket DIMENSION!!!!! which you have failed to admit..... Odin has never shown that he can destroy even a galaxy by himself....not too mention it is just a METAPHOR. Thanos NEVER faced that Odin and he can NOT fight at FTL speeds...give it up and move on already.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Yeah, that "sounds like a metaphor". Despite the fact we have tons of characters like Silver Surfer, Doctor Strange, Phoenix (who are all experienced with cosmic threats) yelling out that it's doomsday.
> 
> And they were fighting in Asgard. Not a planet, a magical dimension.



Not once is there ever mentioned that galaxy a actally WAS destroyed, besides those lines,  that seems more like a metaphor. So don't base your argument solely uppon that.

"A cosmic calamity which _could_ imperil untold galaxies!"

Doesn't mean it _has_.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> In their own MAGICAL pocket DIMENSION!!!!! which you have failed to admit..... Odin has never shown that he can destroy even a galaxy by himself....not too mention it is just a METAPHOR. Thanos NEVER faced that Odin and he can NOT fight at FTL speeds...give it up and move on already.



If it was a metaphor, why was everyone across the universe screaming out like the whole place was going to go? It was affecting things not only in Asgard, but on earth, in space, across the multiverse according to Doctor Strange.

Face it, you're just a pathetic troll who will make up any bullshit excuse to see your favorite character win.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Not once is there ever mentioned that a actally WAS destroyed, besides those lines,  that seems more like a metaphor. So don't base your argument solely uppon that.
> 
> "A cosmic calamity which _could_ imperil untold galaxies!"
> 
> Doesn't mean it _has_.



Yet a few pages later, it clearly states "galaxies are shattered."

So you just arbitrarily say it's a metaphor without evidence?

The fight is felt across the whole universe, it even creates lights in the sky on earth, which is an entire dimension away!


----------



## SoulTaker (Dec 19, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> In their own MAGICAL pocket DIMENSION!!!!! which you have failed to admit..... Odin has never shown that he can destroy even a galaxy by himself....not too mention it is just a METAPHOR. Thanos NEVER faced that Odin and he can NOT fight at FTL speeds...give it up and move on already.



He did mention it in a prior post when he said they were fighting in Asgard.You said Odin never went full out on Thanos,yet he busted out one of his most powerful weapons.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Not once is there ever mentioned that a actally WAS destroyed, besides those lines, that seems more like a metaphor. So don't base your argument solely uppon that.
> 
> "A cosmic calamity which could imperil untold galaxies!"
> 
> Doesn't mean it has.



So Doctor Strange,Phoenix,and Silver Surfer were worried about nothing.

Edit:I hate this god damn lag.I was too slow again.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 19, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> If it was a metaphor, why was everyone across the universe screaming out like the whole place was going to go? It was affecting things not only in Asgard, but on earth, in space, across the multiverse according to Doctor Strange.
> 
> Face it, you're just a pathetic troll who will make up any bullshit excuse to see your favorite character win.



No...it was the AFTEREFFECTS they were SEEING!!! their was no earthquakes or things of that Nature.... A metaphor.....Not too mention it was in Asgard a POCKET DIMENSION.....what is it that you are not getting.

You are the troll..a guy who LIES about Thanos and his battles and overrexagerates EVERY feat he possibly can...you just take advantage of the ignorant posters who know nothing about the character...you are the troll.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 19, 2006)

How were 17 and 18 resurrected, if they supposedly have no souls/spirits?

And clearly contribute to the Genki Dama?


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Yet a few pages later, it clearly states "galaxies are shattered."
> 
> So you just arbitrarily say it's a metaphor without evidence?
> 
> The fight is felt across the whole universe, it even creates lights in the sky on earth, which is an entire dimension away!



Dr. Strange said that it _could_ destroy galaxies, but yet it didn't. And there isn't anything showing that galaxies were indeed being shattered to support those lines. Which would make them more like a metaphor.

Since you say that the fight was going on in a different dimension, then that must've meant that they also wear tearing wholes through the dimension, as how it was observed on earth. But that isn't a galaxy destroying power.
Even though the fight was being felt in the whole universe doesn't mean that is has to be able to destroy galaxies.


----------



## Orion (Dec 19, 2006)

this is getting kinda of sad goku and supes are not surviving this thanos can take either in h2h or energy combat or teleport them into stars or anything else he wants,he takes on cosmics on a daily basis stop all this senseless bullshit,going by your logic phenom since cell never blew up more then a planet he cant.


----------



## Kai (Dec 19, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> They are machines!! they have no spirit...so they could NOT be sensed.


They aren't pure machines, or else they would be robots. There's a factor in them that blocked out the sense in them. Haha, Thanos can't be sensed by Goku, too bad. You're "Goku can sense them because they are simply alive!" statement is refuted yet again.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Still doesn't change the fact that they are Martial artists and that is a proven fact......


This is totally irrelevant to the topic. Is buu a martial artist? Is Frieza a martial artist?



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Wrong! Freeza a guy that *Goku could SMASH with his toe* was SLAPPING off planet busters like NOTHING!! a much more POWERFUL Goku can do the same.....period. My argument is that Goku has the physical strength to hurt Supes and Thanos.


Stop overexaggerating.
Your argument is useless if Goku can't even get to Thanos. And Supes is on Goku's team...why would he want to hurt him...
And when in hell was Frieza slapping off planet busters? He took on 2 planet busters: 1. Goku's Spirit Bomb, which he was injured to hell
2. His own planet buster, yet he survived in space because he could breathe in space and at a power level in which any normal human could have kille dhim.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> How were 17 and 18 resurrected, if they supposedly have no souls/spirits?
> 
> And clearly contribute to the Genki Dama?



Well the androids did have energy. How would they otherwise be able to fire energy blasts? There they could contribute to the Genki Dama with energy.
Although I must admit, this whole thing about the androids sounds a little wired. Because the androids certainly had energy like the characters (energy blasts and ect). But yet they couldn't be felt... This could be due to the fact they aren't normal living beings.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 19, 2006)

> Well the androids did have energy. How would they otherwise be able to fire energy blasts? There they could contribute to the Genki Dama with energy.



I understood that the Genki Dama drew upon the energy of life itself.



> Although I must admit, this whole thing about the androids sounds a little wired. Because the androids certainly had energy like the characters (energy blasts and ect). But yet they couldn't be felt... This could be due to the fact they aren't normal living beings.



Well, they are mostly mechanical.

If Pheonomenol claims that the Androids have no spirit, then how were they resurrected? They should have perished like Android 16.

Not to mention, how androids can conceive children.

Didn't Krillin explain to Goku that 18 was originally human when Goku asked how 18 could conceive Marron?


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 19, 2006)

> They aren't pure machines, or else they would be robots. There's a factor in them that blocked out the sense in them. Haha, Thanos can't be sensed by Goku, too bad. You're "Goku can sense them because they are simply alive!" statement is refuted yet again.



Androids#19 and 20, are pure robots. They SIMPLY don't have SPIRITS!!!!...but Thanos does. Goku senses the SPIRIT of an individual....



> This is totally irrelevant to the topic. Is buu a martial artist? Is Frieza a martial artist?



This is totally irrelevant too....How do you feel when you take out the trash?



> Stop overexaggerating.
> Your argument is useless if Goku can't even get to Thanos. And Supes is on Goku's team...why would he want to hurt him...
> And when in hell was Frieza slapping off planet busters? He took on 2 planet busters: 1. Goku's Spirit Bomb, which he was injured to hell
> 2. His own planet buster, yet he survived in space because he could breathe in space and at a power level in which any normal human could have kille dhim.



Goku can EASILY get to Thanos slow ass...Freeza has CASUALLY slapped away Vegeta's planet buster, Goku's Kamehameha TIMES 20...and the various others you have mentioned.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Well, they are mostly mechanical.
> 
> If Pheonomenol claims that the Androids have no spirit, then how were they resurrected? They should have perished like Android 16.



Yeah, #17 and #18 were cyborgs, not robots like #16.
I don't remember quit well, but was it stated that they couldn't sense 17 and 18? I only remember they couldn't sense 19 and 20, who both seemed to be robots.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan:

Stop being ignorant. Seriously, Thanos didn't have an entire second to react. He didn't even have a pico second. The distance Surfer is at is maybe a mile or two away when we see him coming in. Even if Thanos knew where they were, he didn't know they were coming or what they were planning on doing due to him drastically reducing his senses. His first realization was when Surfer was practically on top of him and he dodged.

Accept it. He has FTL reactions, he can block and parry Superman's attacks if he tries to Speed Blitz.

Edit: Holy shit, talk about dial-up lag...


----------



## Jay (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Yeah, #17 and #18 were cyborgs, not robots like #16.
> I don't remember quit well, but was it stated that they couldn't sense 17 and 18? I only remember they couldn't sense 19 and 20, who both seemed to be robots.


Thats weird though isn't it, I wonder why they could sense 19(the fat one I think) but couldn't sense the other's, I suposed they could sense gero because he was still alive in a sense well his brain was anyway, but that also doesn't make sense how they can sense an andriod with only a human brain but not andriod's which were half human?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 19, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Androids#19 and 20, are pure robots. They SIMPLY don't have SPIRITS!!!!...but Thanos does. Goku senses the SPIRIT of an individual....



However, Android #20, Dr. Gero, clearly had a brain.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 19, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Thats weird though isn't it, I wonder why they could sense 19(the fat one I think) but couldn't sense the other's, I suposed they could sense gero because he was still alive in a sense well his brain was anyway, but that also doesn't make sense how they can sense an andriod with only a human brain but not andriod's which were half human?



Did they sense him? I don't remember them sensing ANY of them.

And I remember somewhere it being said that 17 and 18 were originally human. Seriously, this just goes to show that regular people's kis can't be readily sensed by Z Fighters.


----------



## Jay (Dec 19, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> Did they sense him? I don't remember them sensing ANY of them.
> 
> And I remember somewhere it being said that 17 and 18 were originally human. Seriously, this just goes to show that regular people's kis can't be readily sensed by Z Fighters.


Actuall from what I remember, yeah they were on a cliff and could see the andriods fly out from a city, so yeah they didn't sense them they just saw them.
So it looks like they couldn't sense any of the andriods then I thought it didn't make sense how they could sense gero and the fat one who were basically pure robot, but not 17 and 18 who are only half robot.


----------



## Kai (Dec 19, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Androids#19 and 20, are pure robots. They SIMPLY don't have SPIRITS!!!!...but Thanos does. Goku senses the SPIRIT of an individual....


Stop shifting number to #19 and 20. We're talking 17 and 18 here. Yet you say the person simply has to be ALIVE for Goku to sense, did you not?
Whatever reason you say Goku can't sense 17 and 18 for is most likely the reason he won't be able to sense Thanos.





			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> This is totally irrelevant too....How do you feel when you take out the trash?


Trolling comment #8094385



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku can EASILY get to Thanos slow ass...Freeza has CASUALLY slapped away Vegeta's planet buster,


1. Travelling a lightyear in a second? I don't remember Goku doing that without the aid of IT- but of course it's completely useless in this fight.
Plus, Vegeta's attack on Frieza WAS NOT planet destroying, you must be joking. Frieza countered with his foot, so are you saying Frieza's foot> planet namek?
 Couple things you need to consider after it's been stated to you 1,000 godamn times:

1. Goku has lost track of sense with people MUCH MUCH slower than Thanos before. A guy going a lightyear a second will not be on Goku's ki radar.

2. LOL, Goku is going to be on Earth or a planet the entire time Supes and Thanos are in space whacking away- he can't breathe in space.

3. Thanos can mind-control Goku, and don't say illogical answer like he has a Saiyan brain immune pwn system or something, he has a brain of a 10 year old...

4. Thanos has the technology to go to alternate dimensions and for time travel, I don't see how Goku has a remote chance of winning. He has about the same chances as me, honestly. If Thanos and Supes are in space, Goku is completely useless.




			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku's *Kamehameha TIMES 20*...and the various others you have mentioned.


Undeniable proof that you're dellusional. When in hell did Goku do a Kamehameha X 20? I remember in GT(noncanon) he did a Kamehameha X 10 while in SSJ4 form, but a Kamehameha X 20 in base form? Pure imagination thought up by Phenomenol.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> MSGohan:
> 
> Stop being ignorant. Seriously, Thanos didn't have an entire second to react. He didn't even have a pico second. The distance Surfer is at is maybe a mile or two away when we see him coming in. Even if Thanos knew where they were, he didn't know they were coming or what they were planning on doing due to him drastically reducing his senses. His first realization was when Surfer was practically on top of him and he dodged.
> 
> ...



Thanos seeing Silver Surfer suggest that he would notice him as soon as SS started flying, because of Thanos' cosmic awareness, like how SS "saw" Thanos and stated that Thanos was looking in their direction. He was aware of SS, so he should also be able to notice when SS started traveling. You can't determine by the panels that Thanos first started to move when SS was that close to his palace. Since Thanos has FTL reactions (which I agree on for last time, I'm NOT opposing this!), and the cosmic awareness, as how SS could "see" Thanos a light year away, he would notice SS when SS started traveling. (damn I repeated myself too much now).
If Thanos really dogded SS by only noticing him a few miles away, then Thanos would be able to move about several thousands times the speed of light...  

But his fights against non-super-speed opponent, doesn't suggest that he moves _anywhere near_ that such high speeds.

However I do agree Thanos has super reaction speed, otherwise he wouldn't have noticed SS before it was too late.



Justice And Rule said:


> Seriously, this just goes to show that regular people's kis can't be readily sensed by Z Fighters.



Then how could Goku sense people like Bulma or similar "regular" humans  
The only once they couldn't sense where robots. Don't know about cyborgs though.


----------



## Kai (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:
			
		

> The only once they couldn't sense where robots. Don't know about cyborgs though.



They can't sense cyborgs either, or else Piccolo would have sensed them before they came to Roshi's house.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Space said:


> 1. Travelling a lightyear in a second? I don't remember Goku doing that without the aid of IT- but of course it's completely useless in this fight.
> Plus, Vegeta's attack on Frieza WAS NOT planet destroying, you must be joking. Frieza countered with his foot, so are you saying Frieza's foot> planet namek?
> Couple things you need to consider after it's been stated to you 1,000 godamn times:
> 
> ...



Thanos isn't remotely close to SS', do to reasons I explained several times now.



> Undeniable proof that you're dellusional. When in hell did Goku do a Kamehameha X 20? I remember in GT(noncanon) he did a Kamehameha X 10 while in SSJ4 form, but a Kamehameha X 20 in base form? Pure imagination thought up by Phenomenol.



I think he meant Kaio-ken x20 + Kamehameha.


----------



## Kai (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Thanos isn't remotely close to SS', do to reasons I explained several times now.


I wasn't comparing Thanos to SS, I was comparing him to Goku.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> I think he meant Kaio-ken x20 + Kamehameha.


Ok, but it doesn't change the situation. Kaio Ken X20 + Kamehameha was not a planet destroying attack, neither was Vegeta's attack on Frieza, and neither was Frieza's death beam.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Space said:


> They can't sense cyborgs either, or else Piccolo would have sensed them before they came to Roshi's house.



The characters has shown on many occasion to be able to lower their energy to be undetectable. Anyways, is it actally stated that they couldn't sense 17 and 18, because I don't quite remember that.

Thanos isn't a cyborg btw.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Space said:


> I wasn't comparing Thanos to SS, I was comparing him to Goku.



Thanos isn't CLOSE to such high speed. Read my posts, I repeated this way too many times now.



> Ok, but it doesn't change the situation. Kaio Ken X20 + Kamehameha was not a planet destroying attack, neither was Vegeta's attack on Frieza, and neither was Frieza's death beam.



Vegeta's Final Flash was stated more than once to be able to destroy the planet. He could do it on earth and he used that attack against Freeza's final form, but her Vegeta was WAY stronger. Actaully Vegeta when he used that blast against Freeza he was stronger than Freeza's 1. form, who could destory a planet, since he destroyed planet Vegeta. Besides that in the VIZ manga translation Piccolo stated something in lines, "Are you going to take the planet with him? Vegeta!!!".

The fact that Freeza could destroy planets but couldn't destroy Goku, speaks for it self.


----------



## Kai (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> The characters has shown on many occasion to be able to lower their energy to be undetectable. Anyways, is it actally stated that they couldn't sense 17 and 18, because I don't quite remember that.


You can't be serious. Androids 17 and 18 can't raise or lower their power level, since they have unlimited energy. Piccolo would have sensed them instantly.
Krillin would have sensed Android 18 to activate the bomb.

lol moar Zazen traps
Also, there Cell didn't know who Piccolo was fighting. He had to guess who he was fighting which proves the Z warriors can't sense 17 and 18 as well.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Thanos isn't a cyborg btw.


I never said he was, using my limited knowledge on Thanos, doesn't he have built in technology or something in his body?


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Space said:


> lol moar Zazen traps



Ahh, it is mentioned then, I forgot that one.


----------



## Kai (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Thanos isn't CLOSE to such high speed. Read my posts, I repeated this way too many times now.


I'm actually not going to get into it, because I don't know enough about Thanos.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Vegeta's Final Flash was stated more than once to be able to destroy the planet. He could do it on earth and he used that attack against Freeza's final form, but her Vegeta was WAY stronger.


Ok, first of all, Vegeta used his Final Flash against Cell in the Cell saga. If you're talking about back on Earth, he used Galick Gun.
Plus, there is no proof that he used Galick gun on Final Form Freeza.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Actaully Vegeta when he used that blast against Freeza he was stronger than Freeza's 1. form, who could destory a planet, since he destroyed planet Vegeta. Besides that in the VIZ manga translation Piccolo stated something in lines, "Are you going to take the planet with him? Vegeta!!!".


I noticed you said Viz...
Was it stated he destroyed Planet Vegeta without transforming? I don't remember.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> The fact that Freeza could destroy planets but couldn't destroy Goku, speaks for it self.


No it doesn't, the only canon attack we've seen Freeza destroy planets with was Death Ball, and Freeza used Death BEAM to Goku which scratched his chin. Death beam is nowhere near planet destroying. It:
1. Destroyed the rocks behind Vegeta after piercing him.
2. Went straight behind Goku when he fired like a dozen of them towards him.
3. Destroyed the rocks behind Gohan when Cell did it to him.
4. Went straight behind Vegeta and Gohan when Vegeta pushed him out of the way of the beam.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Thanos seeing Silver Surfer suggest that he would notice him as soon as SS started flying,



Wrong. How many times do we have to tell you: AFTER THAT HE DIMINISHED HIS SENSES GREATLY.



> because of Thanos' cosmic awareness, like how SS "saw" Thanos and stated that Thanos was looking in their direction.



Yes, when his senses were fine. Then he diminished them to fight everyone. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THIS OR DO I NEED TO TYPE IT IN BIGGER LETTERS?



> He was aware of SS, so he should also be able to notice when SS started traveling.



Wrong. He wasn't aware of SS when he started travelling, since he becomes aware of him when SS is almost to the battleground, AS SHOWN IN THE SCAN.



> You can't determine by the panels that Thanos first started to move when SS was that close to his palace.



Yes I can. The light occurs after we get a shot of Surfer nearly at the palace, with the palace not far off in the background. He notices this AFTERWARDS.

Is this reaching you, or are you just being this dense on purpose?



> Since Thanos has FTL reactions (which I agree on for last time, I'm NOT opposing this!),



Except you are denying the feat completely as "He had a second to dodge!" and not coming up with any other reason why he _would_ have FTL reactions, and have continually questioned any other evidence that he could react to Superman's speed...

See, you can _claim_ you believe  it, but everything you've actually _said_ goes against this.



> and the cosmic awareness, as how SS could "see" Thanos a light year away, he would notice SS when SS started traveling. (damn I repeated myself too much now).



He drastically reduces his senses, so he didn't know Surfer was coming. His cosmic senses picked him up when he was almost there (As signalled by the silver in his eye). He didn't know he was coming _at all_ until he was on his final approach in.



> If Thanos really dogded SS by only noticing him a few miles away, then *[Thanos would be able to move about several thousands times the speed of light...*



EXACTLY. THANK YOU. YOU FINALLY FRIGGIN' GOT IT SPOT ON. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE ENTIRE SCAN AND THE REASON HE HAS FTL REACTIONS.

Sweet Zombie Jesus. You finally got it, you just don't want to admit to it.



> But his fights against non-super-speed opponent, doesn't suggest that he moves _anywhere near_ that such high speeds.



Uh, he doesn't always need to. Superman doesn't always speedblitz people, but that doesn't mean he can't. He's been able to fight speedy people before, and people capable of speed like that (Thor, who has gone and held his own against Superman).



> However I do agree Thanos has super reaction speed, otherwise he wouldn't have noticed SS before it was too late.



*Sigh* Do you like being a walking contradiction?



> Then how could Goku sense people like Bulma or similar "regular" humans
> The only once they couldn't sense where robots. Don't know about cyborgs though.



When could he sense Bulma and all of them? I don't ever really remember him sensing normal people with any sort of degree of accuracy.


----------



## Kai (Dec 19, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> When could he sense Bulma and all of them? I don't ever really remember him sensing normal people with any sort of degree of accuracy.



Actually, Goku could sense Bulma when he focused on finding her for the Dragonballs in one scan(I'm too lazy to search it up now).


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Space said:


> Ok, first of all, Vegeta used his Final Flash against Cell in the Cell saga. If you're talking about back on Earth, he used Galick Gun.
> Plus, there is no proof that he used Galick gun on Final Form Freeza.



True Final Flash was not that one. It's messy with all these names.
Te Galick Gun was stated to be able to destroy the planet by Vegeta. It should be obvious that he would HAVE to use an attack stronger than the one he tried to use against Goku in the saiyan saga. His attack in Freeza was stronger, that's non-negociable. Vegeta's power when fighting Freeza's final form was at least above a million (since Freeza second form was above 1 million). And because he was more impressive than Piccolo who put up a fair fight against Freeza's second form.




> I noticed you said Viz...
> Was it stated he destroyed Planet Vegeta without transforming? I don't remember.



It is shown in the manga that Freeza was in his normal form when destroying the saiya-jins and their planet. Can't really pinpoint it.
But it's really ridiculous to think that Freeza had to be on final form just to blow a planet, when Vegeta at a PL of 18.000 (or 35.000 with Galick gun) was stated to be able to destroy the earth.



> No it doesn't, the only canon attack we've seen Freeza destroy planets with was Death Ball, and Freeza used Death BEAM to Goku which scratched his chin. Death beam is nowhere near planet destroying. It:
> 1. Destroyed the rocks behind Vegeta after piercing him.
> 2. Went straight behind Goku when he fired like a dozen of them towards him.
> 3. Destroyed the rocks behind Gohan when Cell did it to him.
> 4. Went straight behind Vegeta and Gohan when Vegeta pushed him out of the way of the beam.



He was being pwned by Goku, you think he wouldn't have used his best to try and defeat Goku? Anyway, I'm not going to debate this, since it has been debated before.



Justice And Rule said:


> See, you can _claim_ you believe  it, but everything you've actually _said_ goes against this.



You're too dense to understand that reaction speed isn't the same as movement speed.



> EXACTLY. THANK YOU. YOU FINALLY FRIGGIN' GOT IT SPOT ON. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE ENTIRE SCAN AND THE REASON HE HAS FTL REACTIONS.



I'm opposing the idea that Thanos is FTL because he fights slowass characters like Thing, Hulk or Thor... The scans can't be used to fully prove that Thanos is FTL, as the argument contradicts other events.




> Uh, he doesn't always need to. Superman doesn't always speedblitz people, but that doesn't mean he can't. He's been able to fight speedy people before, and people capable of speed like that (Thor, who has gone and held his own against Superman).



Is that crossover canon? Thor is slow, I showed scans earlier in this thread where he gets speedblitzed by Spiderman...  



> *Sigh* Do you like being a walking contradiction?



I repeated myself so many times now, and you still don't understand? This is indeed sad...
Super reaction speed alone won't allow you dogde superspeed moves, unless you're close to those speeds. I used several examples to illustrate this, and you still ignored them. Or was the fact that you just didn''t understood them? I don't think I will reply again since you overseeing my replies.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 19, 2006)

> Stop shifting number to #19 and 20. We're talking 17 and 18 here. Yet you say the person simply has to be ALIVE for Goku to sense, did you not?Whatever reason you say Goku can't sense 17 and 18 for is most likely the reason he won't be able to sense Thanos.



Here's your answer

Sorry for using the terrible tranlsations but it did have the point I needed to get across to you...Listen to what I am telling you! Goku senses the SPIRIT of an individual and NONE of the androids have a SPIRIT!..do you understand the concepts of Android, Robot? 



> 1. Travelling a lightyear in a second? I don't remember Goku doing that without the aid of IT- but of course it's completely useless in this fight.
> Plus, Vegeta's attack on Frieza WAS NOT planet destroying, you must be joking. Frieza countered with his foot, so are you saying Frieza's foot> planet namek?
> Couple things you need to consider after it's been stated to you 1,000 godamn times:
> 
> ...



First of ALL Thanos NEVER traveled a lightyear in a second where are you getting this crap from? You don't KNOW ANYTHING of Thanos...you only state what you have read from other posters...PS know about the character before you actully debate with me. 

Volume 26 孫悟空…復活！！ 
Son Gokuu...Fukkatsu!! 
Son Gokuu...Revived!!

Chapter: 306: 孫悟空…復活！！ 
Son Gokuu...Fukkatsu!! 
Son Gokuu...Revived!!

Piccolo:"Vegeta means to destroy the planet!".......Dranet has TERRIBLE translations. I suggest you check out the anime as well for clarification.

Volume 26
孫悟空…復活！！ 
Son Gokuu...Fukkatsu!! 
Son Gokuu...Revived!!

Chapter:313: ２０倍界王拳の賭け 
Nijuubai Kaiouken no Kake 
"The Risks of Twenty Times Kaiouken"

Gokuu  used 20x Kaiouken. Goku shoots a Kamehameha at him, Freeza just puts his hand out to stop it.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 19, 2006)

> Sorry for using the terrible tranlsations but it did have the point I needed to get across to you...Listen to what I am telling you! Goku senses the SPIRIT of an individual and NONE of the androids have a SPIRIT!..do you understand the concepts of Android, Robot?



Dr. Gero was human, prior to becoming Android 20. His brain is clearly retained in his robotic body.

If Androids 17 and 18 indeed did not possess a spirit or soul, how were they resurrected then?

And how did they both contribute to the Genki Dama, which drew upon the energy of life?

And how does an android or robot conceive children?

When Goku asked about the circumstances of Marron's birth due to 18's supposed robotic nature, didn't Krillin answer that 18 originally human?


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 19, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Dr. Gero was human, prior to becoming Android 20. His brain is clearly retained in his robotic body.
> 
> If Androids 17 and 18 indeed did not possess a spirit or soul, how were they resurrected then?
> 
> ...



Correct, 17 and 18 were originally humans. That's what Krillin said. But they were changed into cyborgs, so they werent normal humans anymore, hence their insane power.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 19, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Dr. Gero was human, prior to becoming Android 20. His brain is clearly retained in his robotic body.



He still had no SPIRIT!!!



> If Androids 17 and 18 indeed did not possess a spirit or soul, how were they resurrected then?



Volume 35
さようなら戦士たち 
Sayounara Senshitachi 
Goodbye, Warriors

Chapter: 418: さようなら戦士たち 
Sayounara Senshitachi 
Goodbye, Warriors

Piccolo: "they revived everyone killed by Cell with the first wish!" meaning the Androids as well.... 

I don't remember Kuurin giving a reason for 18's procreation ability.....I know one thing It is STATED in Dragonball Numerous of times that the Androids do NOT have "Ki" (spirit).


----------



## Bullet (Dec 19, 2006)

> Current Supes has only been seen at light speed no faster.



Current Supes is way faster than light. guess this proves that you know nothing about Supes.



> How someone that can see over a light year away moving at such speeds with cosmic percision MISSES someone like Thanos... How bout no?



Because Thanos knew it was coming, he did have the IG after all. And Surfer did miss, it was his fault, cosmic or not, even he's not perfect.



> Or, more accuratly they tagged him like Thanos is gonna tag Supes over and over again.



He tag Supes, who's whole body works at superspeed, he doesn't just fly very fast, like Surfer, Thor, and Eros do. And if Thanos actually get lucky and hit Supes, so what, Supes will take the hit (he's not just very fast but really durable also) and continue to speedbiltz him, only the second time he won't get hit anymore.


> Proof???



the proof is when Spiderman speedbiltzed Firelord  and Thor. Did they he was going at the speed of light when he was fighting Thor?



> Actually he was going out since you have yet to prove he wasn't. Where we have scans showing Odin struggling with Thanos and comparing him to a near equal.



Yeah when have scans of Thanos getting beaten by Thor, Drax, and other people way below Odin in power. When Odin goes all out, the whole galaxy will be destroyed, when he goes all out it will look like his fight against Surtur. If he was going all out, the planet would be gone instead of still being there in one piece. And I would hardly call it equal, Odin was control of the fight to the beginning to the end.



> So has Thanos, as far as I know Current Supes hasn't beaten many beings to keep his status at high end cosmic.




I never said Thanos doesn't.

Current Supes is constantly fighting high level beings.


----------



## Kai (Dec 19, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> new essay
> 
> Sorry for using the terrible tranlsations but it did have the point I needed to get across to you...Listen to what I am telling you! Goku senses the SPIRIT of an individual and NONE of the androids have a SPIRIT!..do you understand the concepts of Android, Robot?


Omg, I've been through that scan you're argument is WAY FROM THE PAST.
Do you kknow the definition of an android and a robot? An android is partially human and 19+20 were technically robots. 17 and 18 were also unable to be sensed for an explanation unknown. THAT reason may also be why Goku can't sense Thanos,(that is if we're even using your "everybody has ki" whacko theory).

PS: Er... Is that the back of Yamcha's head on that scan..? How come his hair is down?



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> First of ALL Thanos NEVER traveled a lightyear in a second where are you getting this crap from? You don't KNOW ANYTHING of Thanos...you only state what you have read from other posters...PS know about the character before you actully debate with me.


I'll admit(unlike you) that it was my error for writing that. A paragraph full of flame just for me is totally unecessary.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Volume 26 孫悟空…復活！！
> Son Gokuu...Fukkatsu!!
> Son Gokuu...Revived!!
> 
> ...


Don't know what you're trying to prove to me here, but in one of the titles it states "Vegeta means to blow up to planet", it's his intention..? not an actuality. I sincerely doubt Vegeta's blast on Final Form Freeza could have blown up Planet Namek.
Goku would have sensed it and panicked immediately in that case.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Gokuu  used 20x Kaiouken. Goku shoots a Kamehameha at him, Freeza just puts his hand out to stop it.


When in hell was it even IMPLIED to be planet destroying? Freeza attempted to put his hand to block it, and was pretty burnt up from the blast in the aftermath.

[Phenomenol]I don't remember Kuurin giving a reason for 18's procreation ability.....I know one thing It is STATED in Dragonball Numerous of times that the Androids do NOT have "Ki" (spirit).[/quote]
Then what the hell do they use for ki blasts?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 19, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> He still had no SPIRIT!!!



So basically, he isn't alive.

And yet, he clearly had his brain intact.



> Volume 35
> さようなら戦士たち
> Sayounara Senshitachi
> Goodbye, Warriors
> ...



And Android 16?

And how can robots be killed? Robots aren't alive in the first place.

Yet, 17 and 18 were revived.



> I don't remember Kuurin giving a reason for 18's procreation ability.....I know one thing It is STATED in Dragonball Numerous of times that the Androids do NOT have "Ki" (spirit).



And yet, they are not completely robots or machines. At least for 17 and 18.

Marron is proof of that.


----------



## Kai (Dec 19, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> True Final Flash was not that one. It's messy with all these names.
> Te Galick Gun was stated to be able to destroy the planet by Vegeta. It should be obvious that he would HAVE to use an attack stronger than the one he tried to use against Goku in the saiyan saga. His attack in Freeza was stronger, that's non-negociable. Vegeta's power when fighting Freeza's final form was at least above a million (since Freeza second form was above 1 million). And because he was more impressive than Piccolo who put up a fair fight against Freeza's second form.


Yes, I'll believe that Vegeta > Frieza in 1st form simply because he was about equal to Freeza's 1st form before Krillin weakened him.
However, we don't know how strong Vegeta was compared to Freeza's 2nd form, and it hasn't been implied at all. Seeing how arrogant and cocky he was to Final Freeza, it's like he totally ignored the enormous ki sense coming from Final Freeza.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> *It is shown in the manga that Freeza was in his normal form when destroying the saiya-jins and their planet*. Can't really pinpoint it.


Yeah, you can't pinpoint it because it was NOT shown, it was only shown in the Bardock: Father of Goku special, but whether it's canon is actually debatable. Although it wasn't in the manga, I'm not sure if Toriyama accepted it as canon or not, but I remember in an interview that he's accepted the Future of Trunks movie as canon.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> But it's really ridiculous to think that Freeza had to be on final form just to blow a planet, when Vegeta at a PL of 18.000 (or 35.000 with Galick gun) was stated to be able to destroy the earth.


Until he actually does the action of destroying Earth or it was confirmed by Toriyama himself, I will remain skeptical. If you try to argue with me on other characters, then I will say:
1. Freeza was stated that he blew up Planet Vegeta. He also blew up Planet Namek, so I obviously believe he can blow up a planet.
2. Cell inflated himself to blow up a planet, therefore I believe he can blow up a planet.
3. King Kai stated to Goku that if he wasn't careful with the Genki-Dama that he could destroy the planet in the Saiyan Saga, so I can believe that he can blow up the planet.
4. Kid Buu destroyed planet Earth so I can obviously believe he can destroy the planet.

However, Vegeta from the Saiyan Saga, who went crazy angry after getting wtfpwned by KaioKen 3 Goku, bluntly saying he would destroy Earth and all its inhabitants(although he hasn't performed a single action at this time hinting anything planet destroying) is hard to believe in any case. You get where I'm going with this?




			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> He was being pwned by Goku, you think he wouldn't have used his best to try and defeat Goku? Anyway, I'm not going to debate this, since it has been debated before.


Well you're agreeing with Phenomenol who states Freeza's death beam is planet destroying.
And yeah, Freeza DIDN'T use his best when he was getting pwned by Goku, it was actually much later he powered up to 100% Freeza.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 19, 2006)

I really think a Mod should come in around the 25th page and end the back and forth by giving 1 post to each user in the thread to prove with feats that the fight would go whatever way and then after that declare the victor and close the thread.

Holla @ mah boi'z, vlaaad12345, CBG, Space, Rice Ball and Mortalis.


----------



## Orion (Dec 19, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> I really think a Mod should come in around the 25th page and end the back and forth by giving 1 post to each user in the thread to prove with feats that the fight would go whatever way and then after that declare the victor and close the thread.
> 
> Holla @ mah boi'z, CBG, Space and Mortalis.



considering weve been arguing about the same scans for about 12 hours something needs to get done ,so far msgohan has said thanos has ftl reactions....but at the same time he doesnt and cant react to superman lol.


----------



## Kai (Dec 19, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> I really think a Mod should come in around the 25th page and end the back and forth by giving 1 post to each user in the thread to prove with feats that the fight would go whatever way and then after that declare the victor and close the thread.
> 
> Holla @ mah boi'z, vlaaad12345, CBG, Space, Rice Ball and Mortalis.



Eh Sorry there, my knowledge of Thanos is actually pretty limmited.. I'm  providing by giving off my knowledge of Supes and Goku while debating with Phenomenol as always.


----------



## Dr.Douchebag (Dec 20, 2006)

If supes can just speedblitz everything and everyone to win why does'nt he do it to darksied or mr .myx?


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

Space said:


> Yes, I'll believe that Vegeta > Frieza in 1st form simply because he was about equal to Freeza's 1st form before Krillin weakened him.
> However, we don't know how strong Vegeta was compared to Freeza's 2nd form, and it hasn't been implied at all. Seeing how arrogant and cocky he was to Final Freeza, it's like he totally ignored the enormous ki sense coming from Final Freeza.



Vegeta > Freeza 1st form => Vegeta able to blow away a planet
I can also ague that Vegeta > Freeza 2nd form. Since he was stronger than Piccolo who fought Freeza's 2nd form, and were in an advantage. And Piccolo couldn't even see Freeza's blasts in final form. Yet Vegeta could and reacted to them, even Piccolo mentions this. Anyways this is off topic, I was only trying to say Vegeta > Freeza 1st form.



> Yeah, you can't pinpoint it because it was NOT shown, it was only shown in the Bardock: Father of Goku special, but whether it's canon is actually debatable. Although it wasn't in the manga, I'm not sure if Toriyama accepted it as canon or not, but I remember in an interview that he's accepted the Future of Trunks movie as canon.



Zamiel
Zamiel

On the 1st scan it shows a flash back were Freeza is actually thinking about Bardock, since we still have Freeza's final form in te picture. However on the nextpage there is a flash of him in 1st form. He was commenting about the saiyans' end and their planet's demise on the previous page, then on the next one it shows him DOING it in 1st form. However just thinking that Freeza needed to transform into his final to just destroy a planet is ridiculous.

Freeza also mentioned it himself here.



> Until he actually does the action of destroying Earth or it was confirmed by Toriyama himself, I will remain skeptical. If you try to argue with me on other characters, then I will say:
> 1. Freeza was stated that he blew up Planet Vegeta. He also blew up Planet Namek, so I obviously believe he can blow up a planet.
> 2. Cell inflated himself to blow up a planet, therefore I believe he can blow up a planet.
> 3. King Kai stated to Goku that if he wasn't careful with the Genki-Dama that he could destroy the planet in the Saiyan Saga, so I can believe that he can blow up the planet.
> ...



This is your words against what is stated in the manga. Saying that Vegeta can't destroy a planet in in saiyan saga is opposing what is _stated_ in the manga, and labelling it as false. I'm not even going to debate this with you anymore.



> Well you're agreeing with Phenomenol who states Freeza's death beam is planet destroying.
> And yeah, Freeza DIDN'T use his best when he was getting pwned by Goku, it was actually much later he powered up to 100% Freeza.



Even when 100% he didn't defeat Goku...
Besides that Freeza survived the Genki Dama which could destroy a planet, and still wasn't defeated, he had the power to fight SSJ Goku.



vlaaad12345 said:


> considering weve been arguing about the same scans for about 12 hours something needs to get done ,so far msgohan has said thanos has ftl reactions....but at the same time he doesnt and cant react to superman lol.



Seriously did you just ignore my replies and arguments, because you labelled them retarded, ridiculous and stupid from the begining?
God, I don't know how many times I repeated this, but what the heck I say it again,

Super reaction speed =! Super speed

Do you understand that "equation", or do you need further explaination? Do you have another definition of reaction speed? Reaction speed isn't the speed at which you move with. Reaction speed is the speed at which you proces the information you receive in your brain. For example if your playing a FPS game, then when you engage an enemy you won't shoot him in an instant, there will be some delay. That delay depends on your reaction speed. If your reaction speed is greater then your opponent then you will certainly kill him before he kills you (assuming both have equal aim). 



Cyborg Superman said:


> If supes can just speedblitz everything and everyone to win why does'nt he do it to darksied or mr .myx?



Well, at least Superman has shown the ability to speedblitz people.


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 20, 2006)

MSGohan before you post again. Please can you post scans of at least 3 times when Superman has moved lightspeed in combat.

Its funny when one person crushes your argument, you stop replying to them and reply to someone else.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 20, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Seriously did you just ignore my replies and arguments, because you labelled them retarded, ridiculous and stupid from the begining?
> God, I don't know how many times I repeated this, but what the heck I say it again,


Calm down slugger he wasn't ignoring you he was only making a comment towards me, saying this is is virtually a game of walking in circles.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> MSGohan before you post again. Please can you post scans of at least 3 times when Superman has moved lightspeed in combat.
> 
> Its funny when one person crushes your argument, you stop replying to them and reply to someone else.



Your talking about the argument that Thanos first noticed SS when SS was miles away? That argument doesn't have proof. Thanos could sense SS even a light year away, and yet you say that he first became aware of SS when he was some miles away?
Thanos has never displayed such a speed as millions times the speed of light, when fights slow characters like Hulk, Thor, Thing and ect... Therefor he was aware of SS when SS started moving a light year away, which would give him enough time to dogde.

Superman can't speedblitz now?



Vynjira said:


> Calm down slugger he wasn't ignoring you he was only making a comment towards me, saying this is is virtually a game of walking in circles.



lol so you consider me being pissed off because of my replies? Have you read some of the others (Justice...)?


----------



## Jay (Dec 20, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Its funny when one person crushes your argument, you stop replying to them and reply to someone else.


Obviously thats just your opinion, because I would say he has been replying to everybodys arguments with out fail, and the reason why he doesn't want to reply to some other's is because he has answered the same shit over and over again, and what he has said when he has replied to them has been solid.
And if anything some of you arn't answering his question's properly.



Vynjira said:


> Calm down slugger he wasn't ignoring you he was only making a comment towards me, saying this is is virtually a game of walking in circles.


To be honest out of everybody Msgohan has been the most calm on here, most of the heat is comming off the others, (example, justice and rule).
And yes Vlaad was talking to you but then he dicided to make a coment about Msgohan while doing so, so by rights Msgohan is only defending himself, which is fair enought.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 20, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> And yes Vlaad was making a comment towards you but then he dicided to bring Msgohans name into the comment, so by rights Msgohan was defending himself, which is fair enought.


There was nothing to defend he didn't say anything except the conversation isn't going anywhere.


----------



## Jay (Dec 20, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> There was nothing to defend he didn't say anything except the conversation isn't going anywhere.


No.. he said the conversation isn't going anywhere to you, and then he decided to try and take the piss out of Msgohan to you.
Go back and read what was said its classed as trying to take the piss, and then he put lol at the end of the sentence, what do you think that is if he isn't trying to take the piss then?


----------



## Hamaru (Dec 20, 2006)

> Your talking about the argument that Thanos first noticed SS when SS was miles away? That argument doesn't have proof. Thanos could sense SS even a light year away, and yet you say that he first became aware of SS when he was some miles away?
> Thanos has never displayed such a speed as millions times the speed of light, when fights slow characters like Hulk, Thor, Thing and ect... Therefor he was aware of SS when SS started moving a light year away, which would give him enough time to dogde.



Thanos has super speed, and he is able  to teleport. He also does not just take on slow people hell he took on the Advengers, Captain Marvel, and the Titanian Eternals at the same time. On top of that he still has mind control and can teleport you away if need be.


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 20, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Superman can't speedblitz now?



I'm asking you to provide the same proof you and others asked me to provide.
Show me scans of Superman moving Lightspeed is combat.


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Vegeta > Freeza 1st form => Vegeta able to blow away a planet
> I can also ague that Vegeta > Freeza 2nd form. Since he was stronger than Piccolo who fought Freeza's 2nd form, and were in an advantage. And Piccolo couldn't even see Freeza's blasts in final form. Yet Vegeta could and reacted to them, even Piccolo mentions this. Anyways this is off topic, I was only trying to say Vegeta > Freeza 1st form.


No, the main point before we got waded off topic was that Vegeta's attack on Final Freeza WAS NOT a planet buster. Freeza kicked it up with his foot without a scratch, so does that mean Freeza's foot > planet Namek?



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> SUPER ADMINNNNNN - everyones alreadii posted in this why didn't u link this sooner =/
> SUPER ADMINNNNNN - everyones alreadii posted in this why didn't u link this sooner =/
> 
> On the 1st scan it shows a flash back were Freeza is actually thinking about Bardock, since we still have Freeza's final form in te picture. However on the nextpage there is a flash of him in 1st form. He was commenting about the saiyans' end and their planet's demise on the previous page, then on the next one it shows him DOING it in 1st form. However just thinking that Freeza needed to transform into his final to just destroy a planet is ridiculous.


I'll agree to this because I believe the Bardock special was canon, although it didn't specifically show him blowing up the planet in 1st form. Eh, I'll agree to this anyways.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Freeza also mentioned it himself here.


Yeah I thought about that before you posted this, but notice how he says defeated King Vegeta without having to transform, not planet Vegeta.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> This is your words against what is stated in the manga. Saying that Vegeta can't destroy a planet in in saiyan saga is opposing what is _stated_ in the manga, and labelling it as false. I'm not even going to debate this with you anymore.


VEGETA stated that he was going to blow up the planet, after he became crazily angry. But did he blow up the planet? No, he didn't because it was countered by Goku's kamehameha. Oh, I guess is a big liar then. GO INTO TIMEOUT VEGETA.
What makes you believe he had the ability to destroy the planet? I don't see what convinces you.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Even when 100% he didn't defeat Goku...
> Besides that Freeza survived the Genki Dama which could destroy a planet, and still wasn't defeated, he had the power to fight SSJ Goku.


You must be kidding me. Did Goku take the DeathBall head on? And no, Freeza didn't go off and super kill him at 100% because he knew Namek was gone in 5 minutes anyways. There was no need to waste more energy like that.
We don't even know if the Genki Dama created on Planet Namek was planet destroyng, due to how little resources Namek had, and little with the surrounding planets.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

Space said:


> VEGETA stated that he was going to blow up the planet, after he became crazily angry. But did he blow up the planet? No, he didn't because it was countered by Goku's kamehameha. Oh, I guess is a big liar then. GO INTO TIMEOUT VEGETA.
> What makes you believe he had the ability to destroy the planet? I don't see what convinces you.



It wouldn't have been stated if hes power were nowhere that level. I disccusion is just stupid, as Muten Roshi from DB could destroy the moon... I'm therefore not going to discus this. 



> You must be kidding me. Did Goku take the DeathBall head on? And no, Freeza didn't go off and super kill him at 100% because he knew Namek was gone in 5 minutes anyways. There was no need to waste more energy like that.



You're implying that it would've taken all his energy just make such an attack? He couldn't beat Goku, saying that he didn't need to use his true power is *.



> We don't even know if the Genki Dama created on Planet Namek was planet destroyng, due to how little resources Namek had, and little with the surrounding planets.



The Genki Dama he could create on earth, was stated to be planet busting. The on namek was alot more powerful than that, due to it's size. Since it was the same type of an attack.


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

I noticed you didn't answer my other points....



MSGohan said:


> It wouldn't have been stated if hes power were nowhere that level. I disccusion is just stupid, as Muten Roshi from DB could destroy the moon... I'm therefore not going to discus this.


This actually relates to the other argument because you said that Vegeta's attack on Final Freeza = planet busting because Vegeta's attack on Earth was planet busting.
There was no evidence whatsoever that said his attack on Earth was planet busting. Vegeta said it when he was horribly angry, that doesn't justify evidence. 



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> You're implying that it would've taken all his energy just make such an attack? He couldn't beat Goku, saying that he didn't need to use his true power is *.


I never said it would take all his energy, but it definitely would have taken a good number of it. The point I'm trying to make(which you keep avoiding) is that the Death BEAM is NOT planet destroying. DEATH BALL is.



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> The Genki Dama he could create on earth, was stated to be planet busting. The on namek was alot more powerful than that, due to it's size. Since it was the same type of an attack.



Not true. He blinded Ape Vegeta for a few SECONDS so he could do the Genki-Dama. If he had a couple minutes it would have been planet busting. Couple seconds is NOT enough.


----------



## Sengoku (Dec 20, 2006)

Thanos still wins.


----------



## Hamaru (Dec 20, 2006)

Debating DBZ is pointless, The power that they dissplay and the timeline that they do it in does not add up anyway.


----------



## Jay (Dec 20, 2006)

> Space said:
> 
> 
> > This actually relates to the other argument because you said that Vegeta's attack on Final Freeza = planet busting because Vegeta's attack on Earth was planet busting.
> ...


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> > Space, I just want to know do you personally believe that Vegeta's attack on earth wasn't planet destroying? or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing.
> 
> 
> I'm saying there is no concrete evidence that Vegeta's attack on Earth was planet destroying. No evidence whatsoever. He was pissed off, he SAID he was going to destroy Earth, but did he? No he didn't. So why would you believe he could have destroyed Earth either?
> ...


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

Space said:


> I noticed you didn't answer my other points....



I thought you said you agreed. Never mind anyway, it's off topic.



> This actually relates to the other argument because you said that Vegeta's attack on Final Freeza = planet busting because Vegeta's attack on Earth was planet busting.
> There was no evidence whatsoever that said his attack on Earth was planet busting. Vegeta said it when he was horribly angry, that doesn't justify evidence.



This has been answered.
We're not getting you don't want to accept that Vegeta can destroy planets in the saiyan saga. However I'm going with what is stated, since IMO it wouldn't have been mentioned if it were just some bullshit. So let's just agree to disagree.



> I never said it would take all his energy, but it definitely would have taken a good number of it. The point I'm trying to make(which you keep avoiding) is that the Death BEAM is NOT planet destroying. DEATH BALL is.



If we agree to the aforementioned, this is not even to discussion.
And the death beam isn't destructive but is more powerful. Attacks can be non destructive but still be powerful as the destructive ones. Like Nappa's attack on earth that levelled a city, when he used that move on Goku, it was useless, yet there were other attack much less destructive but proved more efficient against Goku.



> Not true. He blinded Ape Vegeta for a few SECONDS so he could do the Genki-Dama. If he had a couple minutes it would have been planet busting. Couple seconds is NOT enough.



There is nothing that suggest how long he needs to make a Genki Dama. However that was not what I was apointing to, I meant that when Kaio stated that the Genki Dama could destroy a planet he wasn't expecting Goku to gather energy from other planets too like on namek, therefore more powerful.



Hamaru said:


> Debating DBZ is pointless, The power that they dissplay and the timeline that they do it in does not add up anyway.



Some people just can't accept that others have different views than them, and therefore will keep arguing, even though there are contradictions that'll support both sides' arguments. So yes it is pointless.


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> This has been answered.
> We're not getting you don't want to accept that Vegeta can destroy planets in the saiyan saga. However I'm going with what is stated, since IMO it wouldn't have been mentioned if it were just some bullshit. So let's just agree to disagree.


I don't see how you can believe it when he didn't do it or no action was even implied that he could destroy Earth.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> If we agree to the aforementioned, this is not even to discussion.
> And the death beam isn't destructive but is more powerful. Attacks can be non destructive but still be powerful as the destructive ones. Like Nappa's attack on earth that levelled a city, when he used that move on Goku, it was useless, yet there were other attack much less destructive but proved more efficient against Goku.


After your first sentence, the rest was irrelevant. What we were debating on is if Death Beam = Planet destroying and the answer is obviously no. Time to move on.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> There is nothing that suggest how long he needs to make a Genki Dama. However that was not what I was apointing to, I meant that when Kaio stated that the Genki Dama could destroy a planet he wasn't expecting Goku to gather energy from other planets too like on namek, therefore more powerful.


What you're saying here is different than what you said before..
^^


			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> The Genki Dama he could create on earth, was stated to be planet busting. The on namek was alot more powerful than that, due to it's size. Since it was the same type of an attack


 
The main point here is that the "mini" genki dama Goku created on Earth with the few spare seconds he had on ape Vegeta WAS NOT planet busting. Time to move on.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Some people just can't accept that others have different views than them, and therefore will keep arguing, even though there are contradictions that'll support both sides' arguments. So yes it is pointless.


The reasons behind this is because DBZ(like any other show or comic) has inconsistencies in it. You should know that everything wasn't aligned perfectly with no mistakes.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

Space said:


> I'm saying there is no concrete evidence that Vegeta's attack on Earth was planet destroying. No evidence whatsoever. He was pissed off, he SAID he was going to destroy Earth, but did he? No he didn't. So why would you believe he could have destroyed Earth either?



Actally Goku could've dogded the blast instead of using the kaio-ken x4 and trashed his own body. But Goku can sense powerlevel, if he knew that Vegeta was bluffing he would've dogded the blast. They were in the middle of the desert, noone would've been harmed if the blast just hit the ground, so Goku wouldn't have anything to worry about if he just dogded the blast. However he didn't but rather risiked his own life, by using kaio-ken x4 which could destroy his own body, just counter the attack.



> This is what also doesn't make sense. Do you understand that not every single comic/manga is consistent? Even you should know that DBZ has some inconsistencies like how the Z warriors can't sense 19 and 20, and still can't sense 17 or 18 either even though they are half human.
> 
> Also with the fact AT stated there is only 1 legendary SSJ every thousand years, but wait Trunks can go SSJ, so can Vegeta, Gohan, and Goten.
> 
> Also, there's SSJ2 and SSJ3 which was not explained either. There are many inconsistencies in DBZ that you should consider, so I remain skeptical of the statement Vegeta made. I'm probably leaning to the fact that it wasn't planet destroying.



Good to see that you realize there are inconsistencies.
Now, if there are two plots, A & B, and they contradict each other, then you can't just say, well  B must be ridiculous because A is the right one. Therefore you can't just say that Master Roshi destroying the moon is ridiculous, if it contradicts some of your theories.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

Space said:


> After your first sentence, the rest was irrelevant. What we were debating on is if Death Beam = Planet destroying and the answer is obviously no. Time to move on.



I see you didn't get the point. There are attack more powerful than the destructive attacks, which are no where near as destructive. The destructive is actaully also alot wast of energy, since most of it just destroys the enviroment.



> What you're saying here is different than what you said before..
> ^^



Really? Maybe because I put it in another way.



> The main point here is that the "mini" genki dama Goku created on Earth with the few spare seconds he had on ape Vegeta WAS NOT planet busting. Time to move on.



Actally he doesn't need much time to gather the one earth, look.
However, he needed much more time to gather the one on namek, he gathered way more energy on namek, since he also collected energy from other planets too.

[quoteThe reasons behind this is because DBZ(like any other show or comic) has inconsistencies in it. You should know that everything wasn't aligned perfectly with no mistakes.[/QUOTE]

I know. But you can't just label to plots that contradicts your arguments as ridiculous, it go also be the other way around.


----------



## Jay (Dec 20, 2006)

> > =Space;
> > I'm saying there is no concrete evidence that Vegeta's attack on Earth was planet destroying. No evidence whatsoever. He was pissed off, he SAID he was going to destroy Earth, but did he? No he didn't. So why would you believe he could have destroyed Earth either?


1. Because he said it.
2. Because Ak controlls him and written this himself so if you dont know he should.
3. Goku had to do a kiaoken x 4 kamehameha to reflect the blast away,
4. Roshi's normal Kamehameha was enought to destroy the moon.




> Ok, this is just wrong. If I make a comic about a guy and then he says he's going to destroy the Earth, you would believe him?
> AT didn't confirm that Vegeta's attack on Earth was planet destroying. If you find him confirming it, I will concede the argument. Things are easier said than done, *even you know that*.


Space let me get one thing straight, dont talk down down to me like Im some sort of idoit, I dont talk down to you like that so that's enough.
And no I wouldn't beleive they guy if I didn't think he was capable of it which is only an opinion not a fact, and Vegeta clearly is capable, besides there are alot more positives saying he could then negatives saying he couldn't.




> This is what also doesn't make sense. Do you understand that not every single comic/manga is consistent? *Even you should know* that DBZ has some inconsistencies like how the Z warriors can't sense 19 and 20, and still can't sense 17 or 18 either even though they are half human.
> 
> Also with the fact AT stated there is only 1 legendary SSJ every thousand years, but wait Trunks can go SSJ, so can Vegeta, Gohan, and Goten.
> 
> Also, there's SSJ2 and SSJ3 which was not explained either. There are many inconsistencies in DBZ that you should consider, so I remain skeptical of the statement Vegeta made. I'm probably leaning to the fact that it wasn't planet destroying.


Once again less of the trying talking down to me, espacially when your losing the argument anyway, and yes I know, Ive said many times that there are so many plot holes in Dbz, So you say roshi can destroy the moon but Vegeta cant because the manga is inconsistant that's a poor excuse and just your opinion not evidence that Ak and Vegeta are wrong, so Ill take that as your consession because your to stubourn enougth to admit it.
And what annoys me here if were to say what you are saying about a comic all of you would jump at the chance to have a go and say this isn't evidence.




> Look, I'm not biased and if there's actual proof you can lay out for me, then I can gladly change my mind. If you argue that Vegeta can destroy the planet because he said so, that really isn't convincing. Do you understand that(unlike phenomenol or jplaya?!?!)


To be honest Im starting to think you are biased now just by your constant down grading of dbz when clearly you have no proof whatsoever and my evidence at the top of this clearly is.
And the Roshi being able to destroy the moon should be more then enough proof for you even though *you* disagree and have your poor excuse that it is just a plot hole. But your bound to argue back as allways because you have to try and get the last word in even when you have been clearly proven wrong.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 20, 2006)

Space said:


> Omg, I've been through that scan you're argument is WAY FROM THE PAST. Do you kknow the definition of an android and a robot? An android is partially human and 19+20 were technically robots. 17 and 18 were also unable to be sensed for an explanation unknown. THAT reason may also be why Goku can't sense Thanos,(that is if we're even using your "everybody has ki" whacko theory).
> 
> PS: Er... Is that the back of Yamcha's head on that scan..? How come his hair is down?
> 
> ...



Wrong, jinzô=artificial; ningen=human being. In the manga, after #17 is absorbed by Cell, #18 states:"We HATED Gero for turning us into (jinzôningen)!"

Here is what Bulma says about these Artificial Humans..... 

"They're BASED on human bodies... enhanced almost ENTIRELY with bio-organic components... I guess that's why this Cell figures it can fuse with them... I'll have to check, but these few cybernetic parts might be the key to their weakness..."

Gohan and everyone said they have NO ki (spirit)! do you know why?....because they are MACHINES.....machines have NO spirit to sense  they are NOT like actual living beings. Goku even states when everyone is trying to wish him back..... "ORDINARY people and Cell just becomes souls." The Android never had a soul Android 17 was brought back because Kuurin asked for Shenron to bring back everyone who was "KILLED by Cell."

The Z warriors could NOT sense the "jinzôningen" because they have NO spirit....Guess what Thanos and Superman has a spirit and Goku will be able to sense them. Also Androids did NOT have Ki blasts...they called their source of power simply "ENERGY!"

Vegeta was going to blow up Namek and Piccolo is asked by Kuurin what is vegeta doing and Piccolo tells him that he means to destroy the planet. That is why Freeza hesitates and CASUALLY kicks the blast away....

So Goku's Kaioken times 20 kamehameha is NOT planet destroying?  are you seriously that dense...If Goku's Kaioken times 4 was planet destroying back in the Saiya-jin saga...but yeah a MUCH more powerful Goku at FULL power  using Kaioken to the max is not planet destroying... 

Now I would like to actually get back to the Thanos vs. Goku debate....


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 20, 2006)

> Wrong, jinzô=artificial; ningen=human being. In the manga, after #17 is absorbed by Cell, #18 states:"We HATED Gero for turning us into (jinzôningen)!"



Turning into what they were? As opposed to being built?



> Here is what Bulma says about these Artificial Humans.....
> 
> "They're BASED on human bodies... enhanced almost ENTIRELY with bio-organic components... I guess that's why this Cell figures it can fuse with them... I'll have to check, but these few cybernetic parts might be the key to their weakness..."



So, they are not completely robotic, due to the bio-organic parts. Robots are usually made of non-organic parts (unless there have been advances in robotics that I am unaware of).



> Gohan and everyone said they have NO ki (spirit)! do you know why?....because they are MACHINES.....machines have NO spirit to sense they are NOT like actual living beings. Goku even states when everyone is trying to wish him back..... "ORDINARY people and Cell just becomes souls." The Android never had a soul Android 17 was brought back because Kuurin asked for Shenron to bring back everyone who was "KILLED by Cell."



You're arguing that because the Androids can not be sensed, they are technically not alive.

Yet, they were resurrected with the Dragonballs.

*How can you kill something that was not alive in the first place?*

Android 16, for example.



> The Z warriors could NOT sense the "jinzôningen" because they have NO spirit....Guess what Thanos and Superman has a spirit and Goku will be able to sense them. Also Androids did NOT have Ki blasts...they called their source of power simply "ENERGY!"



Refer to my argument and question above.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> So Goku's Kaioken times 20 kamehameha is NOT planet destroying?  are you seriously that dense...*If Goku's Kaioken times 4 was planet destroying* back in the Saiya-jin saga...but yeah a MUCH more powerful Goku at FULL power  using Kaioken to the max is not planet destroying...
> 
> Now I would like to actually get back to the Thanos vs. Goku debate....



Because it was countering Vegeta's Galick Gun and overcome it, hence Goku's attack was more powerful. In case you ask why Goku's Kaio-ken x4 Kamehameha attack could be considered as planet busting.

BTW, isn't Thanos a normal living being, or is he a cyborg of some sort?


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Actally Goku could've dogded the blast instead of using the kaio-ken x4 and trashed his own body. But Goku can sense powerlevel, if he knew that Vegeta was bluffing he would've dogded the blast. They were in the middle of the desert, noone would've been harmed if the blast just hit the ground, so Goku wouldn't have anything to worry about if he just dogded the blast. However he didn't but rather risiked his own life, by using kaio-ken x4 which could destroy his own body, just counter the attack.


Goku believed Vegeta when he said he was going to destroy Earth with Galick Gun, it's not hard to understand. In a last minute desperation, he countered his Galick gun with Kaio Ken X4 Kamehameha.



			
				MsGohan said:
			
		

> Good to see that you realize there are inconsistencies.
> Now, if there are two plots, A & B, and they contradict each other, then you can't just say, well  B must be ridiculous because A is the right one. Therefore you can't just say that Master Roshi destroying the moon is ridiculous, if it contradicts some of your theories.


Not true, because Roshi destroying is FACT, while Vegeta destroying Earth was NOT, so obviously we'll have to analyze the Vegeta situation instead.


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> 1. Because he said it.
> 2. *Because Ak controlls him and written this himself *so if you dont know he should.
> 3. Goku had to do a kiaoken x 4 kamehameha to reflect the blast away,
> 4. Roshi's normal Kamehameha was enought to destroy the moon.


Yes AT wrote the story and he explained that every 1,000 years a SSJ will rise again. So why can Vegeta, Trunks, and Gohan go SSJ as well? There is no explanation for that, and there's no explanation for this incident as well.
You 100% believe AT even when he made a mistake?



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Space let me get one thing straight, dont talk down down to me like Im some sort of idoit, I dont talk down to you like that so that's enough.
> And no I wouldn't beleive they guy if I didn't think he was capable of it which is only an opinion not a fact, and Vegeta clearly is capable, besides there are alot more positives saying he could then negatives saying he couldn't.


Well then Vegeta's ability to destroy the planet is open for pure speculation then, it is NOT a fact(during Saiyan Saga).
I'm saying even  you because it's obvious that you're a fanboy of DBZ(not stating it as a negative comment).



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Once again less of the trying talking down to me, espacially when your losing the argument anyway, and yes I know, Ive said many times that there are so many plot holes in Dbz, So you say roshi can destroy the moon but Vegeta cant because the manga is inconsistant that's a poor excuse and just your opinion not evidence that Ak and Vegeta are wrong, so Ill take that as your consession because your to stubourn enougth to admit it.
> And what annoys me here if were to say what you are saying about a comic all of you would jump at the chance to have a go and say this isn't evidence.


Losing the argument? I'm gladly replying back to you guys time after time again. I'm always having something to say because Phenomenol usually says something so illogical that someone has to spea out.
Want to know another inconstistency? If you want to go by power levels, when Goku was in SSJ3 fighting Buu, why didn't he use Kaio Ken X 20 again? It would've made his POWER AND SPEED JUMP BY 20X!!! Yes, a plot hole in power. 



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> To be honest Im starting to think you are biased now just by your constant down grading of dbz when clearly you have no proof whatsoever and my evidence at the top of this clearly is.


As long as there's Phenomenol, he will always say something totally illogical like Goku's physical punches able to destroy a planet.
And I actually thought you were biased of DBZ and wasn't sure of it, but you confirmed it for me in the Hulk Hogan vs Mr Satan thread.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> And the Roshi being able to destroy the moon should be more then enough proof for you even though *you* disagree and have your poor excuse that it is just a plot hole. But your bound to argue back as allways because you have to try and get the last word in even when you have been clearly proven wrong.


What I'm saying is that it doesn't make sense, along with the other things in DBZ. Trunks in SSJ form did a burning attack to Freeza, and he dodged it and it didn't destroy Earth. Why not?
How about these blasts? Don't say these aren't stronger than Roshi's Kamehameha on the moon:
Reply to my thread
Reply to my thread
Reply to my thread
Reply to my thread
Don't give me that, alright?


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Wrong, jinzô=artificial; ningen=human being. In the manga, after #17 is absorbed by Cell, #18 states:"We HATED Gero for turning us into (jinzôningen)!"
> 
> Here is what Bulma says about these Artificial Humans.....
> 
> "They're BASED on human bodies... enhanced almost ENTIRELY with bio-organic components... I guess that's why this Cell figures it can fuse with them... I'll have to check, but these few cybernetic parts might be the key to their weakness..."


Thanks for the clear up. I was curious about this myself, but you still don't have evidence how Goku will sense Thanos. Because you say so is not an answer.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Gohan and everyone said they have NO ki (spirit)! do you know why?....because they are MACHINES.....machines have NO spirit to sense  they are NOT like actual living beings. *Goku even states when everyone is trying to wish him back..... "ORDINARY people and Cell just becomes souls.*"


That has 0 relevance to the Androids. He says"You normal people and bad people like Cell arrive here with just their spirits."



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> The Android never had a soul Android 17 was brought back because Kuurin asked for Shenron to bring back everyone who was "KILLED by Cell."


Yeah, I never said otherwise. I think you're getting me confused with CBG.
Plus, didn't you say the Androids weren't alive in the 1st place? Face it Phenomenol, they use Ki just like everyone else in the DBZverse.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> The Z warriors could NOT sense the "jinzôningen" because they have NO spirit....Guess what Thanos and Superman has a spirit and Goku will be able to sense them. *Also Androids did NOT have Ki blasts...they called their source of power simply "ENERGY*!"


Anyone can sense the hesitation in your post a mile away. " It was not stated that it's just "energy" you're making it up as you go like always Phenomenol.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Vegeta was going to blow up Namek and Piccolo is asked by Kuurin what is vegeta doing and Piccolo tells him that he means to destroy the planet. That is why Freeza hesitates and CASUALLY kicks the blast away....


Nope, he never said anything of the sort.
Is this a mirage or did gokuden553 just...?
Is this a mirage or did gokuden553 just...?
Is this a mirage or did gokuden553 just...?
Is this a mirage or did gokuden553 just...?
It was not a planet buster, and Freeza just kicked it like a soccer ball without a scratch. Yet you people say Goku's spirit bomb was a planet buster and it hit Freeza dead on with lots of burns and injuries.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> So Goku's Kaioken times 20 kamehameha is NOT planet destroying?  are you seriously that dense...If Goku's Kaioken times 4 was planet destroying back in the Saiya-jin saga...but yeah a MUCH more powerful Goku at FULL power  using Kaioken to the max is not planet destroying...


I'm tired of arguing this point with you. Goku's Kaio Ken 4 was not a planet buster, and neither was his Kaio X 20 kamehameha. If it was, Freeza could just deflect it and wipe out the entire Saiyan race right there.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Now I would like to actually get back to the Thanos vs. Goku debate....


LoL, sorry but there is no fight for Goku in this debate. If Thanos goes into space, how will Goku fight? Haha.


----------



## Jay (Dec 20, 2006)

> Space said:
> 
> 
> > Yes AT wrote the story and he explained that every 1,000 years a SSJ will rise again. So why can Vegeta, Trunks, and Gohan go SSJ as well? There is no explanation for that, and there's no explanation for this incident as well.
> ...


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> > So you could only TRY and answer 1 of the 4.
> > Either answer the rest or please shut up.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

Space said:


> Goku believed Vegeta when he said he was going to destroy Earth with Galick Gun, it's not hard to understand. In a last minute desperation, he countered his Galick gun with Kaio Ken X4 Kamehameha.



Goku can sense, he would've sensed himself wether the attack was powerful enough to destroy the planet or not, like they easily sensed it when Kid Buu did it. If that blast wasn't planet shattering he would've dogded it instead of trashing his own body.



> Not true, because Roshi destroying is FACT, while Vegeta destroying Earth was NOT, so obviously we'll have to analyze the Vegeta situation instead.



I was refering to your statement where you said, that Roshi destroying the moon is ridiculous, why is it ridiculous?



Space said:


> Yes AT wrote the story and he explained that every 1,000 years a SSJ will rise again. So why can Vegeta, Trunks, and Gohan go SSJ as well? There is no explanation for that, and there's no explanation for this incident as well.
> You 100% believe AT even when he made a mistake?



Now you're discussing plot holes to support you arguments, which has no relevanse.. I'll just lease this.



> What I'm saying is that it doesn't make sense, along with the other things in DBZ. Trunks in SSJ form did a burning attack to Freeza, and he dodged it and it didn't destroy Earth. Why not?
> How about these blasts? Don't say these aren't stronger than Roshi's Kamehameha on the moon:
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



This just proves that they can make their attacks more dense without the huge enviromental destruction, hence you saying that since Freeza's death-deam only made small explosion can't be used to conclude anything, less that it isn't as powerful the more destructive once.
Just like when Vegeta used all his power to destroy Buu, the earth wasn't destroyed, does this mean that all of SSJ2 Majin Vegeta's power couldn't destroy the planet.



Space said:


> Thanks for the clear up. I was curious about this myself, but you still don't have evidence how Goku will sense Thanos. Because you say so is not an answer.



Is Thanos a cyborg?



> Nope, he never said anything of the sort.
> Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



You should know, that Dranet's manga translation isn't accurate, Phenomenol was stating that from the official manga translation.



> LoL, sorry but there is no fight for Goku in this debate. If Thanos goes into space, how will Goku fight? Haha.



So? Why would Thanos go into space?


----------



## Orion (Dec 20, 2006)

we can debate this till the end of time but the fact is goku and supes arent going to win they are wayyyyy out of there league.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> we can debate this till the end of time but the fact is goku and supes arent going to win they are wayyyyy out of there league.



If you still haven't noticed yet, then I was trying mainly to argue about Thanos' speed.
Here is where we are now: Your claims are, that Thanos can move severals _thousands_ of times the speed of light.
Is that correct?


----------



## Orion (Dec 20, 2006)

move as in fly or run no....does he have ftl reflexes and reactions yes.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> move as in fly or run no....does he have ftl reflexes and reactions yes.



Not flying or running, but movements. Like when you move your head, body, arms, legs and ect.
So, does Thanos move in that way, several thousand times the speed of light?


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Goku can sense, he would've sensed himself wether the attack was powerful enough to destroy the planet or not, like they easily sensed it when Kid Buu did it. If that blast wasn't planet shattering he would've dogded it instead of trashing his own body.


I don't understand why you kept my responding to my one point earlier. I'll make it clear to everyone right now:
*Freeza's Death Beam is not planet destroying and nowhere near planet destroying.*
No more arguments on that point.
Second of all, if Goku cna sense whether an attack is powerful enough to destroy the planet, why didn't he sense Vegeta's "so called planet buster" to Freeza in Final Form? He would have been in a state of panick immediately. 



			
				MsGohan said:
			
		

> I was refering to your statement where you said, that Roshi destroying the moon is ridiculous, why is it ridiculous?


I never said anything of the sort. I wonder how you got that idea...



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Now you're discussing plot holes to support you arguments, which has no relevanse.. I'll just lease this.


I'm showing various other plot holes to relate to Roshi destroying the moon --> Vegeta's Galick Gun incident. So yeah, I'm using plot holes to support my argument.




			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> This just proves that they can make their attacks more dense without the huge enviromental destruction, hence you saying that since Freeza's death-deam only made small explosion can't be used to conclude anything, less that it isn't as powerful the more destructive once.
> Just like when Vegeta used all his power to destroy Buu, the earth wasn't destroyed, does this mean that all of SSJ2 Majin Vegeta's power couldn't destroy the planet.


That's just petty, whatever attacks DON'T destroy the Earth, you just say they condense it, so basically every ki blast that is fired in the DBZ series is planet destroying? Far from what AT has written.





			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Is Thanos a cyborg?


God, YOU think everyone outside the DBZverse has ki too? You're just as loonie as Phenomenol and Jplaya.



			
				MsGohan said:
			
		

> You should know, that Dranet's manga translation isn't accurate, Phenomenol was stating that from the official manga translation.


Ah, since you agree with him, Freeza's foot's durability > Planet Namek.
Say a direct answer, instead of dragging it out further.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> So? Why would Thanos go into space?


LoL, because he feels like it. That a good enough answer for you? Goku can do zilch while in space, he's done for. If this was on Earth, I could consider him a factor but as Supes and Thanos get on with it in space, Goku has much of a chance as me to win.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

Space said:


> I don't understand why you kept my responding to my one point earlier. I'll make it clear to everyone right now:
> *Freeza's Death Beam is not planet destroying and nowhere near planet destroying.*
> No more arguments on that point.



I just mentioned to you that their attacks doesn't need to have a destructive power to be just as powerful as the destructive once. I illustrated this by Majin Vegeta's attack. So SSJ2 Majin Vegeta used litteraly _all_ of his power to take out Buu, but only left a small crater, means that this attack was inferior to Muten Roshi's moon shattering blast?

So my point is: Just because Freeza's death beam didn't have the enviromental destruction power doesn't mean that his beam was weaker than say for example (if we have take it to the extreme) Muten Roshi's moon shattering blast.



> Second of all, if Goku cna sense whether an attack is powerful enough to destroy the planet, why didn't he sense Vegeta's "so called planet buster" to Freeza in Final Form? He would have been in a state of panick immediately.



We never see how Goku reacts to that attack, we only get to see Piccolo's reaction, as he states something in the lines "Are you going to take the planet with him?! Vegeta!!". Dranet hasn't translated it correct. And Piccolo was freaked out.



> I never said anything of the sort. I wonder how you got that idea...


I remember you saying that Roshi destroying the moon didn't make any sense. Never mind, if you haven't said such a thing.




> I'm showing various other plot holes to relate to Roshi destroying the moon --> Vegeta's Galick Gun incident. So yeah, I'm using plot holes to support my argument.



Then I must've misunderstood. What was your point by bringing up inconsistencies then?



> That's just petty, whatever attacks DON'T destroy the Earth, you just say they condense it, so basically every ki blast that is fired in the DBZ series is planet destroying? Far from what AT has written.



This is answered above.



> God, YOU think everyone outside the DBZverse has ki too? You're just as loonie as Phenomenol and Jplaya.



We only saw that cyborgs, and robots could be undetected. So I'm asking again, is Thanos a cyborg?



> Ah, since you agree with him, Freeza's foot's durability > Planet Namek.
> Say a direct answer, instead of dragging it out further.



I leave this be, so you can think a little about it.



> LoL, because he feels like it. That a good enough answer for you? Goku can do zilch while in space, he's done for. If this was on Earth, I could consider him a factor but as Supes and Thanos get on with it in space, Goku has much of a chance as me to win.



Why would Thanos just leave the atmosphere? That's like saying: Well Goku would just IT to another dimension and Thanos wouldn't be able to do a thing about it.

This shows a little bias from your side against Goku...


----------



## Orion (Dec 20, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> If you still haven't noticed yet, then I was trying mainly to argue about Thanos' speed.
> Here is where we are now: Your claims are, that Thanos can move severals _thousands_ of times the speed of light.
> Is that correct?



since he reacted to ss,then yes he has to have atleast ftl movements which is easily able to prevent speedblitzing from goku or supes.


----------



## Sengoku (Dec 20, 2006)

uh.... if msgohan is questioning about thanos being a cyborg or not.
why is he even arguing in the first place?


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> since he reacted to ss,then yes he has to have atleast ftl movements which is easily able to prevent speedblitzing from goku or supes.



Then why is characters like Hulk, Thor or Thing even a match for him? Those characters are light years away from such speeds...


----------



## Orion (Dec 20, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Then why is characters like Hulk, Thor or Thing even a match for him? Those characters are light years away from such speeds...



the same way flash gets tagged by people without super speed.....its a comic jobbing occurs.plot induced stupidity,plot no jutsu whatever you want to call it,in the battledome these dont exist which means people can use there full abilities which means......supes and goku get stomped into the fucking ground,stop dragging this thread on thanos faces solar system and up destroyers on a regular basis.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> the same way flash gets tagged by people without super speed.....its a comic jobbing occurs.plot induced stupidity,plot no jutsu whatever you want to call it,in the battledome these dont exist which means people can use there full abilities which means......supes and goku get stomped into the fucking ground,stop dragging this thread on thanos faces solar system and up destroyers on a regular basis.



Well I explained how he could dogde SS without being FTL, but only with super reaction speed as you claim.
If there is any other events where Thanos has shown the ability to move several _*thousands*_ of times the speed light, then I would accept it. But if he has never shown anything close to that speed, then I'm not buying your statement that he dogded SS that fast, as I already explained how he could've dogded without being FTL.


----------



## Orion (Dec 20, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Well I explained how he could dogde SS without being FTL, but only with super reaction speed as you claim.
> If there is any other events where Thanos has shown the ability to move several _*thousands*_ of times the speed light, then I would accept it. But if he has never shown anything close to that speed, then I'm not buying your statement that he dogded SS that fast, as I already explained how he could've dogded without being FTL.



you can believe whatever you want that doesnt change the fact that it happened,scan>your opinion.


----------



## Orion (Dec 20, 2006)

lol to the person who neg repped me saying i dont get the point....i get the point exactly but the point is completely retarded and that -about 2 rep is really hurting me.


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> I just mentioned to you that their attacks doesn't need to have a destructive power to be just as powerful as the destructive once. I illustrated this by Majin Vegeta's attack. So SSJ2 Majin Vegeta used litteraly _all_ of his power to take out Buu, but only left a small crater, means that this attack was inferior to Muten Roshi's moon shattering blast?


It hasn't been confirmed(I don't think),  but I'm pretty convinced there that Vegeta condensed the blast. 



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> So my point is: Just because Freeza's death beam didn't have the enviromental destruction power doesn't mean that his beam was weaker than say for example (if we have take it to the extreme) Muten Roshi's moon shattering blast.


Yes, Yes I understood you the first time. Just the way the Death Beam was set up to impale people, it's not planet destroying, that's all I'm saying. Let's just move on from this point. We both know it's not, so it's pointless to keep debating this.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> We never see how Goku reacts to that attack, we only get to see Piccolo's reaction, as he states something in the lines "Are you going to take the planet with him?! Vegeta!!". Dranet hasn't translated it correct. And Piccolo was freaked out.


Every single important thing we see happen during the 4 Z warriors fight Freeza, we see Goku in the tank thinking about something. This was just a super blast by Vegeta, not important at all and not planet destroying in the leasst.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> I remember you saying that Roshi destroying the moon didn't make any sense. Never mind, if you haven't said such a thing.


I didn't say it was ridiculous though...
Since that feat of  Roshi, another thought came to mind.
When Gohan turned Ape, Piccolo destroyed the moon with an unnamed blast. Judging by this act, you would suggest that basically every blast dealt to in DBZ is planet destroying, are you not?



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Then I must've misunderstood. What was your point by bringing up inconsistencies then?


I was showing you the inconsisstencies in power(there's many), and even Toriyama said that he abandoned the power level system since it wasn't accurate.
Toriyama is a great author, Dragonball is actually one of my fav mangas, but you have to admit he's made mistakes.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> We only saw that cyborgs, and robots could be undetected. So I'm asking again, is Thanos a cyborg?


I told you to answer my question directly, not DRAG IT OUT. IT's YES or NO.
Alright let me explain this to you, yes you're a DBZ fanboy.

1. Toriyama has created the manga Dragonball, in which all the characters in this universe use the concept of ki, and utilize it to perform extraordinary attacks.

2. This concept (OBVIOUSLY) does not apply to every other show and in real life, as they do not follow this concept. Ki is in DBZ, maybe a few other shows that also follow the concept. But inputting it into Marvel an DC? That's preposterous. Stop putting Ki into the Marvelverse.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> I leave this be, so you can think a little about it.


Correction: You leave this be, so YOU can think about it.
You're saying Vegeta's attack on Final Freeza couldn't even SCRATCH his foot, but it's capable of destroying Planet Namek? I think you're underestimating a planet's size.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Why would Thanos just leave the atmosphere? That's like saying: Well Goku would just IT to another dimension and Thanos wouldn't be able to do a thing about it.
> 
> This shows a little bias from your side against Goku...


Bias..? I wouldn't count on it(hint: your alias, custom title, and avatar).
Can't Thanos travel to different dimensions or something? Besides, Goku can only travel to other "dimensions" if they have ki. If not, too bad.
Thanos just goes in space, Goku can't do anything. He'll just have to wait.


----------



## Superrazien (Dec 20, 2006)

It would be pretty bad ass if Goku and Supes did a fusion. I think even god would be alittle afraid of that power lol.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 20, 2006)

Denial: The only friend of the DBZ-Tard.

I still can't believe you are trying to argue that he somehow had time when it is shown that he only notices Surfer when he is right on top of him and THEN he moves. You're just too much.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Dec 20, 2006)

damn this thread blew up.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 20, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> You're arguing that because the Androids can not be sensed, they are technically not alive.Yet, they were resurrected with the Dragonballs.How can you kill something that was not alive in the first place?
> Android 16, for example.



Because The Z warriors wished everyone back that was DESTROYED by Cell...hence why the android came back...



			
				Space said:
			
		

> you still don't have evidence how Goku will sense Thanos. Because you say so is not an answer.



Goku will sense Thanos SPIRIT!!! He is not an android....



> Face it Phenomenol, they use Ki just like everyone else in the DBZverse.Anyone can sense the hesitation in your post a mile away. " It was not stated that it's just "energy" you're making it up as you go like always Phenomenol



No..Android 17 says they have "ENERGY" not Ki...notice why they could NOT be sensed.... Volume 31 "Shinobiyoru Seru Cell, Stealthily Approaching!"
Chapter;368:"Shinobiyoru Seru Cell, Stealthily Approaching!" 

Jinzouningen Seventeen: My "ENERGY" will never drop...they run (live) on energy son.



> Nope, he never said anything of the sort.
> What team would you all choose?
> What team would you all choose?
> What team would you all choose?
> ...



Wrong...I told you too STOP using Dranet's HORRIBLE translations because it is incorrect.... Piccolo (yells) Vegeta... he means to destroy the planet!. Freeza freaks out at first, but then kicks the blast away, straight up into the air.(cause he did not want the planet to explode) Piccolo can't believe this, and Kuririn states Vegeta had put his "FULL POWER" into that attack. It was planet destroying, and Freeza dismissed it.



> I'm tired of arguing this point with you. Goku's Kaio Ken 4 was not a planet buster, and neither was his Kaio X 20 kamehameha. If it was, Freeza could just deflect it and wipe out the entire Saiyan race right there.



Vegeta's Galic gun was a planet buster Goku's kamehameha times 4 was GREATER than Vegeta's planet Buster!!! are you in denial again? Goku's Kaioken times 20 blast is greater than both of those last attacks....it was planet busting and Freeza blocked it with one hand.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 20, 2006)

> Rice Ball said:
> 
> 
> > I'm asking you to provide the same proof you and others asked me to provide.
> ...


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

Space said:


> It hasn't been confirmed(I don't think),  *but I'm pretty convinced there that Vegeta condensed the blast.*



Good, that was my point.



> Yes, Yes I understood you the first time. Just the way the Death Beam was set up to impale people, it's not planet destroying, that's all I'm saying. Let's just move on from this point. We both know it's not, so it's pointless to keep debating this.



The death-beam wouldn't even be able to level a mountain, but that doesn't it's weaker than those blasts that level mountains (or a city for that matter). Nappa's attack levelled a city in saiyan saga, but certainly the death beam was way more powerful than that. So the point in the first place was that the death-beam is more powerful than Roshi's moon shattering blast. And if we go by that Vegeta from saiyan could destroy the planet, then surly the death-beam of Freeza's final form which had a powerlevel above a million, was more powerful than Vegeta's attack when he had a powerlevel of max 35000... But it's doesn't mean it has to be just as destructive.




> Every single important thing we see happen during the 4 Z warriors fight Freeza, we see Goku in the tank thinking about something. This was just a super blast by Vegeta, not important at all and not planet destroying in the leasst.



That's not a good enough argument. We do get to see Piccolo's reaction, and this is what he says more correctly,

"Are you stupid/insane Bejiita! That chi blast is going to destroy the entire planet!"

I'm sorry I can't provide you a scan, because I don't have the manga my self. 



> I didn't say it was ridiculous though...
> Since that feat of  Roshi, another thought came to mind.
> When Gohan turned Ape, Piccolo destroyed the moon with an unnamed blast. Judging by this act, you would suggest that basically every blast dealt to in DBZ is planet destroying, are you not?



There you see, they don't need to be destructive to be more powerful, as I mentioned several times. They can make their blasts more efficient (powerful) than the destructive ones, without having the destructive effects. I thought that you had understood this by mentioning that Vegeta condensed his blast. Because that was what I was apointing.



> I was showing you the inconsisstencies in power(there's many), and even Toriyama said that he abandoned the power level system since it wasn't accurate.
> Toriyama is a great author, Dragonball is actually one of my fav mangas, but you have to admit he's made mistakes.



Indeed he has.



> I told you to answer my question directly, not DRAG IT OUT. IT's YES or NO.
> Alright let me explain this to you, yes you're a DBZ fanboy.
> 
> 1. Toriyama has created the manga Dragonball, in which all the characters in this universe use the concept of ki, and utilize it to perform extraordinary attacks.
> ...



Getting pissed off huh?
We only see that cyborgs and robots can go undetected. No creature demonstrated the ability to go undetected by the DBZ characters. Thanos is neither, so he wouldn't be able to go undetected.
They simply sense the life force. So Thanos doesn't have a life force?



> Correction: You leave this be, so YOU can think about it.
> You're saying Vegeta's attack on Final Freeza couldn't even SCRATCH his foot, but it's capable of destroying Planet Namek? I think you're underestimating a planet's size.



I'm expecting more from you. You should be able to explain this for youself. If I didn't know what to answer I would've ignored it.



> Bias..? I wouldn't count on it(hint: your alias, custom title, and avatar).
> Can't Thanos travel to different dimensions or something? Besides, Goku can only travel to other "dimensions" if they have ki. If not, too bad.
> Thanos just goes in space, Goku can't do anything. He'll just have to wait.



I didn't say bias because of your arguing above, but simply because you consider the situation that Thanos just goes into space, and Goku becomes _useless_.

You also missed the point... I ask again, why would Thanos just go out into the space, aren't they supposed to fight?


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 20, 2006)

You've shown him doing nothing on the level of what Thanos dodged with Surfer nearly on top of him. You have yet to show Thanos getting 'speedblitzed' and so far have made generalized accounts that he's "slow" and other Marvel characters are "slow", despite people like Thor taking on the Greek God Mercury and others.


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Because The Z warriors wished everyone back that was DESTROYED by Cell...hence why the android came back...


destroyed...? I thought it was everyone who was killed... you would still have to explain how the Dragonballs brought back the Androids, Phenomenol. Since you're saying 17 and 18 weren't "alive", wth is Krillin and #18's daughter then?



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku will sense Thanos SPIRIT!!! He is not an android....


You're like an unstoppable tape recorder. Childish repetance, THANOS DOES NOT HAVE KI. STOP INPUTTING KI INTO THE MARVELVERSE. They don't listen to AT's ways, and they don't listen to the ways of you, jplaya, or MSgohan over there.
Do you understand they don't revolve around that principle? They are alive, but they don't revolve around ki AT ALL.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> No..Android 17 says they have "ENERGY" not Ki...notice why they could NOT be sensed.... Volume 31 "Shinobiyoru Seru Cell, Stealthily Approaching!"
> Chapter;368:"Shinobiyoru Seru Cell, Stealthily Approaching!"
> 
> Jinzouningen Seventeen: My "ENERGY" will never drop...they run (live) on energy son.


What the...? Everybody says energy... they don't always 100% of the timem say ki. Goku can say"I'm low on energy", I need more energy, what you posted doesn't mean anything.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Wrong...I told you too STOP using Dranet's HORRIBLE translations because it is incorrect.... Piccolo (yells) Vegeta... he means to destroy the planet!. Freeza freaks out at first, but then kicks the blast away, straight up into the air.(cause he did not want the planet to explode) Piccolo can't believe this, and Kuririn states Vegeta had put his "FULL POWER" into that attack. It was planet destroying, and Freeza dismissed it.


If it was a planet buster, Freeza shouldn't have cared. He would have liked to dismmiss the Saiyan race sooner anyways. It was not a planet buster, and he just kicked it away with one foot with ease just to mock Vegeta.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Vegeta's Galic gun was a planet buster


Ok we're stopping right here first. PROVE IT. 



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku's kamehameha times 4 was GREATER than Vegeta's planet Buster!!! are you in denial again? Goku's Kaioken times 20 blast is greater than both of those last attacks....it was planet busting and Freeza blocked it with one hand.


If that was planet busting as well, Freeza can just block it and send it down to Namek, killing all of its inhabitants without an ounce of care in his brain.
Also, using your guys logic, Piccolo and others would have yelled"Goku, are you trying to destroy the planet?"
Bottom line, you're simply stating that every single ki blast shot by a Z character in the series is planet destroying. It is not true, as I've posted some scans and you conveniently ignored...  

Since we got strayed so off topic, I'm going back to the beginning of the original fight when you included Goku in this fight when you said Goku's physical attacks could hurt people that shrugg off planet busters."
PROVE IT. Show one scan where he hurts someone who "shrugs off planet busters".
Goku's physical attacks can't destroy planets, and his IT is useless if there's no ki and there's 0 inside of Supes and Thanos.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:


> Denial: The only friend of the DBZ-Tard.
> 
> I still can't believe you are trying to argue that he somehow had time when it is shown that he only notices Surfer when he is right on top of him and THEN he moves. You're just too much.



That is due to the fact that Thanos has never shown the ability to move thousands (if not millions) of times the speed of light. So the logical explaination would be he was aware of SS from the begining. This is supported by the fact that SS himself states that Thanos is looking towards them. Therefore he would have enough time to dogde by the time SS startet his flight till he arrived.


----------



## Orion (Dec 20, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> That is due to the fact that Thanos has never shown the ability to move thousands (if not millions) of times the speed of light. So the logical explaination would be he was aware of SS from the begining. This is supported by the fact that SS himself states that Thanos is looking towards them. Therefore he would have enough time to dogde by the time SS startet his flight till he arrived.



except if read the comic,it clearly says he dampned his senses so he wouldnt know ss started moving and didnt even notice him until he was right on top of him and he still dodged your arguement goes right out the window again.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> except if read the comic,it clearly says he dampned his senses so he wouldnt know ss started moving and didnt even notice him until he was right on top of him and he still dodged your arguement goes right out the window again.



Then let me make it simple.
Has Thanos _ever_ move several thousands (if not millions) of times the speed of light?


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 20, 2006)

space said:
			
		

> destroyed...? I thought it was everyone who was killed... you would still have to explain how the Dragonballs brought back the Androids, Phenomenol. Since you're saying 17 and 18 weren't "alive", wth is Krillin and #18's daughter then?



The Dragonballs brought back everyone that was destroyed by Cell..including machines.....



> You're like an unstoppable tape recorder. Childish repetance, THANOS DOES NOT HAVE KI. STOP INPUTTING KI INTO THE MARVELVERSE. They don't listen to AT's ways, and they don't listen to the ways of you, jplaya, or MSgohan over there.Do you understand they don't revolve around that principle? They are alive, but they don't revolve around ki AT ALL.



You don't know what ki is do you? ki is SPIRIT, Life Force, Soul and Thanos has these.....A robot or an android does not it functions on energy.



> What the...? Everybody says energy... they don't always 100% of the timem say ki. Goku can say"I'm low on energy", I need more energy, what you posted doesn't mean anything.



Wrong, The Android STATES that his ENERGY will never drop means that he has an infinite supply of energy that is needed for an Android to FUNCTION...use your brain, go outside and gets some air or something.



> If it was a planet buster, Freeza shouldn't have cared. He would have liked to dismmiss the Saiyan race sooner anyways. It was not a planet buster, and he just kicked it away with one foot with ease just to mock Vegeta.



Wrong Freeza wanted the entire Z team to see something "greater than hell itself." If you knew anything about DBZ you should know how Evil Freeza is and that he wanted the damn dragonballs.



> Ok we're stopping right here first. PROVE IT.



Because it is %@#* STATED in the CANON manga!!!!



> If that was planet busting as well, Freeza can just block it and send it down to Namek, killing all of its inhabitants without an ounce of care in his brain. Also, using your guys logic, Piccolo and others would have yelled"Goku, are you trying to destroy the planet?" Bottom line, you're simply stating that every single ki blast shot by a Z character in the series is planet destroying. It is not true, as I've posted some scans and you conveniently ignored...
> 
> Since we got strayed so off topic, I'm going back to the beginning of the original fight when you included Goku in this fight when you said Goku's physical attacks could hurt people that shrugg off planet busters." PROVE IT. Show one scan where he hurts someone who "shrugs off planet busters". Goku's physical attacks can't destroy planets, and his IT is useless if there's no ki and there's 0 inside of Supes and Thanos.



It's common sense that a FULL powered kamehameha at kaioken times 20 is planet busting..and Freeza blocked it with one hand. Goku damaged Saiya-jin saga Vegeta who shrugged off a planet buster..Goku's physical attacks damaged and hurt Freeza who CASUALLY shrugged off planet busters, Kid Buu..cell. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that..


----------



## Orion (Dec 20, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Then let me make it simple.
> Has Thanos _ever_ move several thousands (if not millions) of times the speed of light?



he would have had to in the scan theres your answer take  it how you want,and who says he needs to move thousands or millions of times to fight goku or supes ,i cant remember the last time goku or supes busted out ftl combat speed.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 20, 2006)

Goku and Superman are sure as hell faster than Thanos!^^^


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Because it is %@#* STATED in the CANON manga!!!!



Well, he is considering Vegeta's statement as a bluff... But I've just argued with him about that, and yet he just started from scratch again


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> The death-beam wouldn't even be able to level a mountain, but that doesn't it's weaker than those blasts that level mountains (or a city for that matter). Nappa's attack levelled a city in saiyan saga, but certainly the death beam was way more powerful than that. So the point in the first place was that the death-beam is more powerful than Roshi's moon shattering blast. And if we go by that Vegeta from saiyan could destroy the planet, then surly the death-beam of Freeza's final form which had a powerlevel above a million, was more powerful than Vegeta's attack when he had a powerlevel of max 35000... But it's doesn't mean it has to be just as destructive.


Alright this is the 4th or 5th time you stated this to me. Care to tell me what is your point?
All I stated to you was that the Death Beam was not Planet Destroying, and you go into this dillemma of showing me that the Death Beam is more destructive than Roshi's Kamehameha which does not prove anything.



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> That's not a good enough argument. We do get to see Piccolo's reaction, and this is what he says more correctly,
> 
> "Are you stupid/insane Bejiita! That chi blast is going to destroy the entire planet!"
> 
> I'm sorry I can't provide you a scan, because I don't have the manga my self.


And you consider this to be undeniable, undisputable, proof? You didn't respond to my other point either: Freeza would have just dodged it and let Vegeta's blast destroy Namek in that case without caring, since he can survive in space.




There you see, they don't need to be destructive to be more powerful, as I mentioned several times. They can make their blasts more efficient (powerful) than the destructive ones, without having the destructive effects. I thought that you had understood this by mentioning that Vegeta condensed his blast. Because that was what I was apointing.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Getting pissed off huh?
> We only see that cyborgs and robots can go undetected. No creature demonstrated the ability to go undetected by the DBZ characters. Thanos is neither, so he wouldn't be able to go undetected.
> They simply sense the life force. So Thanos doesn't have a life force?


Do you realize you don't give direct answers?
Care to explain to me, DIRECTLY, why you're inputting Ki into the MarvelVerse? They don't revolve around that principle.
What would AT say if you asked him if Goku was governed by the speedforce?



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> I'm expecting more from you. You should be able to explain this for youself. If I didn't know what to answer I would've ignored it.







			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> I didn't say bias because of your arguing above, but simply because you consider the situation that Thanos just goes into space, and Goku becomes _useless_.


Then provide an argument, which you haven't done. What can Goku do if Thanos just hangs out and has a banana smoothie drifting in space?



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> You also missed the point... I ask again, why would Thanos just go out into the space, aren't they supposed to fight?


Well, let's say Thanos and Supes decide the planet is too crampy and decide to take the fight at superspeed in the stars.
Goku wants to fight too, but too bad he can't because his poor IT is useless with no ki around. Hey, but in the meantime, he can probably IT to himself(since he has ki) and try to catch himself!


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> he would have had to in the scan theres your answer take  it how you want,and who says he needs to move thousands or millions of times to fight goku or supes ,i cant remember the last time goku or supes busted out ftl combat speed.



Thanos has never shown the ability move that fast, those the most logical explaination is that he was aware of SS as he started moving, hence had much more time to move.
And my question was that has he ever shown, or did show after that event, that he can move several thousand times the speed of light?


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> The Dragonballs brought back everyone that was destroyed by Cell..including machines.....


Killed.
And you seem to be evading a good number of my points, including in the past I'm way too lazy to search up for.
If you're sayingn 17 and 18 aren't alive, what the hell is Krillin's daughter?




			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> You don't know what ki is do you? ki is SPIRIT, Life Force, Soul and Thanos has these.....A robot or an android does not it functions on energy.


Teach me how to fly like Videl then. I want to fly so badly. I should be able to utilize my ki and fly right? I need to fly to Taiwan to see my cousins at superspeed.





			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Wrong, The Android STATES that his ENERGY will never drop means that he has an infinite supply of energy that is needed for an Android to FUNCTION...use your brain, go outside and gets some air or something.


The basis for your argument is that the Android says he has energy. That can mean a wide  variety of things. Since he has unlimited energy, what IS THAT energy? What is it? Can you explain it? You're making it up as you go, with no proof whatsoever.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Wrong Freeza wanted the entire Z team to see something "greater than hell itself." If you knew anything about DBZ you should know how Evil Freeza is and that he wanted the damn dragonballs.


No, you're wrong again because he witnessed the Dragonballs being useless after the old Guru died.
He didn't care about the damn Planet Namek at the moment and he did  not care about anyone on the planet but himself. He would have let everyone die if it were a planet buster.





			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Because it is %@#* STATED in the CANON manga!!!!


Correction, an angry Saiyan monkey who didn't have his banana that day stated it. I don't see how you interpret that as proof of the universe.



			
				It's common sense that a FULL powered kamehameha at kaioken times 20 is planet busting..and Freeza blocked it with one hand. [/quote said:
			
		

> Why would he need to and take damage?(and no he didn't shrugg off a "planet buster".) He could've deflected it back to Namek, destroying everyone. Explain to me that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Goku and Superman are sure as hell faster than Thanos!^^^



  

Not without IT, and we all know IT is useless because Thanos does not have ki, as I've proved to you in more ways you count.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 20, 2006)

Space said:
			
		

> Teach me how to fly like Videl then. I want to fly so badly. I should be able to utilize my ki and fly right? I need to fly to Taiwan to see my cousins at superspeed.



 Yeah I will teach you..just like every other ORDINARY human in the DB universe. Videl could fly because she was more powerful than ordinary humans. You are nothing but Ordianary.



> The basis for your argument is that the Android says he has energy. That can mean a wide  variety of things. Since he has unlimited energy, what IS THAT energy? What is it? Can you explain it? You're making it up as you go, with no proof whatsoever.



Energy for him to LIVE off of...to function....... go gets some air...



> No, you're wrong again because he witnessed the Dragonballs being useless after the old Guru died. He didn't care about the damn Planet Namek at the moment and he did  not care about anyone on the planet but himself. He would have let everyone die if it were a planet buster.



Wrong.....Freeza could have BLOWN the damn planet up himself if he desired..he wanted everyone to see his power and that is just the way that evil bastard is.



> Why would he need to and take damage?(and no he didn't shrugg off a "planet buster".) He could've deflected it back to Namek, destroying everyone. Explain to me that.



Freeza deflected the planet buster showing that he is much more powerful than Goku...Freeza proved to Goku that a Saiya-jin can not beat him...also he was using only half his strength.Freeza could have EASILY killed Goku if he wanted but he toyed with him like he always does. 




> Shrugged off a planet buster?(and no this wasn't EVEN a planet buster)*Thread*
> Vegeta was blasted into oblivion with that funny looking face, yeah shrugging off a planet buster.



It is @#%* STATED in the canon manga that it was a planet buster and Vegeta did Shrugg off the blast! Read on and see how he is able to EASILY function and fight...hell he even laughed about it right after. Yeah he Shrugged it off.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 20, 2006)

Space said:


> Not without IT, and we all know IT is useless because Thanos does not have ki, as I've proved to you in more ways you count.



You don't know anything about Thanos...hell you even deny that he has a spirit.....


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Yeah I will teach you..just like every other ORDINARY human in the DB universe. Videl could fly because she was more powerful than ordinary humans. You are nothing but Ordianary.


The most laughable statement in US history!
Videl WAS an ordinary human, any person in the DBZverse had the ability to fly if they were taught to. Since you're stating everyone else has ki, we should all be able to fly to Egypt.

This is about the 3rd time I asked you Phenomenol. What is Krillin's daughter? Is she alive? What is she?



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Energy for him to LIVE off of...to function....... go gets some air...


What makes his blasts so destructive then?



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Wrong.....Freeza could have BLOWN the damn planet up himself if he desired..he wanted everyone to see his power and that is just the way that evil bastard is.


I'm tired of arguing this over and over with you. You're 100% biased in seeing Vegeta's blast to Final Freeza a total planet buster when Freeza kicked it up without a scratch on his foot.




			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Freeza deflected the planet buster showing that he is much more powerful than Goku...Freeza proved to Goku that a Saiya-jin can not beat him...also he was using only half his strength.Freeza could have EASILY killed Goku if he wanted but he toyed with him like he always does.


He didn't deflect it, he put his hand out to block it.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> It is @#%* STATED in the canon manga that it was a planet buster and Vegeta did Shrugg off the blast! Read on and see how he is able to EASILY function and fight...hell he even laughed about it right after. Yeah he Shrugged it off.


Where in the manga did it state Vegeta "SHRUGG OFF" the blast? I already showed you the scan- unless you're stating Vegeta was happier then a kid on Christmas getting blasted by Goku's Kamehameha.
Vegeta stated it in the manga that he was going to destroy the planet. You know what else he said? That Goku wouldn't be able to block his Gallick Gun. And guess what? Goku did. He was crazy and started spouting things off.
Funny how you choose what Vegeta says to be true and ignore the rest..


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 20, 2006)

> Because The Z warriors wished everyone back that was DESTROYED by Cell...hence why the android came back...



Then where is Android 16?



> No..Android 17 says they have "ENERGY" not Ki...notice why they could NOT be sensed.... Volume 31 "Shinobiyoru Seru Cell, Stealthily Approaching!"
> Chapter;368:"Shinobiyoru Seru Cell, Stealthily Approaching!"
> 
> Jinzouningen Seventeen: My "ENERGY" will never drop...they run (live) on energy son.



Then how could they have contributed to the Spirit Bomb, which feeds of the energy of life?


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> You don't know anything about Thanos...hell you even deny that he has a spirit.....



Stop flaming me. 

I don't get how you don't understand this:
Thanos and Goku both have life, YAY!
Goku has a special kind of life force called Ki!
Too bad though Thanos doesn't have tha special kind of life force!

I even broke it down in baby steps! Easy for you?


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

Space said:


> Alright this is the 4th or 5th time you stated this to me. Care to tell me what is your point?
> All I stated to you was that the Death Beam was not Planet Destroying, and you go into this dillemma of showing me that the Death Beam is more destructive than Roshi's Kamehameha which does not prove anything.



I thought I included my point 
Death beam not being a planet destroying blast I agree, that's one of my points, incase you didn't get it.
Let me explain my point in more details (if such thing is even possible without repeating what I already said):
The destruction that the death-beam causes isn't a display of it's power. The DB wouldn't even level a city, right? But that doesn't mean that the DB was weaker than Nappa's attack that levelled a city. Since that attack by Nappa was useless against Goku in the saiyan saga. The point is that the DB was easily more powerful than the such destructive blasts like Roshi's moon shattering blast. But the DB beeing more powerful than the moon shattering blast doesn't imply that it's more destructive. Therefore DB had more _power_ than a moon shattering blast. Therefore saying that DB didn't have the power of a planet shattering blast is _not_ a fact.



> And you consider this to be undeniable, undisputable, proof? You didn't respond to my other point either: Freeza would have just dodged it and let Vegeta's blast destroy Namek in that case without caring, since he can survive in space.



Piccolo stated that is was a planet shattering blast, because he could sense it. Just like Goku and Vegeta sensed that the blast Kid Buu fired was going to destroy the earth.
First of all Freeza wanted to display his power. Since you are using such a lame argument, here is another lame counter argument. If the planet got destroyed, his ship would also get destroyed. Freeza would be stranded.



> Do you realize you don't give direct answers?
> Care to explain to me, DIRECTLY, why you're inputting Ki into the MarvelVerse? They don't revolve around that principle.
> What would AT say if you asked him if Goku was governed by the speedforce?



Because they can sense the lifeforce. So only DBZ characters have life force now? Ofcourse a lifeforce is used in a religious term where there is a god as the creator of everything, and so on. And Marvel doesn't have this concept?



> Then provide an argument, which you haven't done. What can Goku do if Thanos just hangs out and has a banana smoothie drifting in space?
> 
> Well, let's say Thanos and Supes decide the planet is too crampy and decide to take the fight at superspeed in the stars.
> Goku wants to fight too, but too bad he can't because his poor IT is useless with no ki around. Hey, but in the meantime, he can probably IT to himself(since he has ki) and try to catch himself!



Goku can't survive in space, so that's lame, and not a fight. Clearly the topic is about Goku & Superman vs. Thanos.
I'm going to stupid answering your lame arguments like these, as it's wasting my time.

And funny how you earlier stated that you didn't know much about Thanos, yet you now are arguing on his side. I wonder who's side you would've on if it was Superman vs Goku & Thanos...


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 20, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Then where is Android 16? Then how could they have contributed to the Spirit Bomb, which feeds of the energy of life?



These are Obviously Mess ups by Akira Toriyama! In the anime Android 17 did NOT contribute to the spirit bomb he stuck a gun out and FORCED other humans to stick their hands up (a stick up)! And it is STATED that none of the Z warriors could sense the androids because they have no ki (spirit)!

Obviously one of the many mess ups by Toriyama!


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> These are Obviously Mess ups by Akira Toriyama! In the anime Android 17 did NOT contribute to the spirit bomb he stuck a gun out and FORCED other humans to stick their hands up (a stick up)! And it is STATED that none of the Z warriors could sense the androids because they have no ki (spirit)!
> 
> Obviously one of the many mess ups by Toriyama!



I'm keeping this in mind, you can cover up things so easily it's not even funny. You're not convincing anyone Phenomenol.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 20, 2006)

> These are Obviously Mess ups by Akira Toriyama!



That's the excuse?



> In the anime Android 17 did NOT contribute to the spirit bomb he stuck a gun out and FORCED other humans to stick their hands up (a stick up)!



Then made a comment, then raised his hand as well, if I remember correctly.



> And it is STATED that none of the Z warriors could sense the androids because they have no ki (spirit)!



Yet, both 17 and 18 contributed to the Spirit Bomb.



> Obviously one of the many mess ups by Toriyama!



Elaborate.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 20, 2006)

> This is about the 3rd time I asked you Phenomenol. What is Krillin's daughter? Is she alive? What is she?



Don't know it really does not matter about kurrin's daughter.



> What makes his blasts so destructive then?



ENERGY!!!!!!!!!!!! He does state that Dr. Gero created them to be very powerful......



> Where in the manga did it state Vegeta "SHRUGG OFF" the blast? I already showed you the scan- unless you're stating Vegeta was happier then a kid on Christmas getting blasted by Goku's Kamehameha. Vegeta stated it in the manga that he was going to destroy the planet. You know what else he said? That Goku wouldn't be able to block his Gallick Gun. And guess what? Goku did. He was crazy and started spouting things off.
> Funny how you choose what Vegeta says to be true and ignore the rest..



Are you that dense...It does NOT need to be stated how Vegeta Shrugged off the blast he easily SURVIVED it and then continued to fight he even laughs at the fact.... and if it is STATED in the manga it is CANON fact that it was planet busting. You arguing over CANON is the most ridiculous thing ever!


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

Space said:


> Stop flaming me.
> 
> I don't get how you don't understand this:
> Thanos and Goku both have life, YAY!
> ...



Actaully you should see how hard it is to make a point to you.


----------



## Superrazien (Dec 20, 2006)

Space said:


> Not without IT, and we all know IT is useless because Thanos does not have ki, as I've proved to you in more ways you count.



Um for the record you do know Goku doesnt have to lock on to Ki signals all the time. He said before he either needs to sense Ki or just know where he is going.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 20, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> That's the excuse?Elaborate.



The androids should NOT have been able to give any SPIRIT to the SPIRIT bomb..because it was STATED that the Androids have NO Spirit to begin with. like I said, It is just one of the many scew ups on Toriyama's part.....


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> I thought I included my point
> Death beam not being a planet destroying blast I agree, that's one of my points, incase you didn't get it.
> Let me explain my point in more details (if such thing is even possible without repeating what I already said):
> The destruction that the death-beam causes isn't a display of it's power. The DB wouldn't even level a city, right? But that doesn't mean that the DB was weaker than Nappa's attack that levelled a city. Since that attack by Nappa was useless against Goku in the saiyan saga. The point is that the DB was easily more powerful than the such destructive blasts like Roshi's moon shattering blast. But the DB beeing more powerful than the moon shattering blast doesn't imply that it's more destructive. Therefore DB had more _power_ than a moon shattering blast. Therefore saying that DB didn't have the power of a planet shattering blast is _not_ a fact.


I just wanted you to specify that you agreed that the Death Beam could not destroy a planet. We're good to go, time to move on.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Piccolo stated that is was a planet shattering blast, because he could sense it. Just like Goku and Vegeta sensed that the blast Kid Buu fired was going to destroy the earth.
> First of all Freeza wanted to display his power. Since you are using such a lame argument, here is another lame counter argument. If the planet got destroyed, his ship would also get destroyed. Freeza would be stranded.


That brings me to another point: If Vegeta's so called planet buster would have destroyed the planet, it would have at least put a little damage to Freeza's foot, but nothing happened whatsoever. Not even a scratch. The blast wasn't even close to planet destroying.



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> Because they can sense the lifeforce. So only DBZ characters have life force now? Ofcourse a lifeforce is used in a religious term where there is a god as the creator of everything, and so on. And Marvel doesn't have this concept?


Ok, the argument I'm most irritated on is this one. 
And again, mind you, you still have not answered my question as opposed to why you're inputting ki into the marvel verse.
And correction, DBZ characters can not sense pure life force, they sense ki, a type of life force, in the DBZverse exclusively(save the other shows that use the ki concept as well).



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> *Goku can't survive in space, so that's lame, and not a fight.* Clearly the topic is about Goku & Superman vs. Thanos.
> I'm going to stupid answering your lame arguments like these, as it's wasting my time.


Well don't blame me, blame the OP. Anything goes in a fight, and if it's to stop you guys posting endlessly on Goku's IT, we can end it this way.
Yes it's Goku & Superman vs Thanos but it will soon be only Superman vs Thanos.



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> And funny how you earlier stated that you didn't know much about Thanos, yet you now are arguing on his side. I wonder who's side you would've on if it was Superman vs Goku & Thanos...


I didn't include Supes in my argument at all. I was throwing a hypothetical scenario of what Goku vs Thanos would be like. Unfortunately, Goku isn't really a factor in this fight because the OP didn't really put any restrictions, so this is basically Supes vs Thanos.
I first replied in this thread because I saw Phenomenol, and I knew that meant lies were going to get spread.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 20, 2006)

> The androids should NOT have been able to give any SPIRIT to the SPIRIT bomb..



Yet they contributed, as seen by outstretching their arm to the sky. If they couldn't have contributed at all, they wouldn't have done the action.



> because it was STATED that the Androids have NO Spirit to begin with.



They were stated that they can't be sensed.



> like I said, It is just one of the many scew ups on Toriyama's part.....



Many screw ups?


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 20, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Yet they contributed, as seen by outstretching their arm to the sky. If they couldn't have contributed at all, they wouldn't have done the action.They were stated that they can't be sensed.Many screw ups?



They should NOT have been able to contribute SPIRIT to the SPIRIT bomb! they don't even have Spirit and it was STATED....It is exactly like I said the many inconsistencies of the DBZ Universe.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 20, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> The androids should NOT have been able to give any SPIRIT to the SPIRIT bomb..because it was STATED that the Androids have NO Spirit to begin with. like I said, It is just one of the many scew ups on Toriyama's part.....



Actually according to Toriyama that was "OUR" mistake as he wrote King Kai saying...


Then there is the whole thing they were Human at the time due to Krillin's wish and they were part human to begin with... Oh and another thing. Ki does NOT equal Life Force.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

Space said:


> That brings me to another point: If Vegeta's so called planet buster would have destroyed the planet, it would have at least put a little damage to Freeza's foot, but nothing happened whatsoever. Not even a scratch. The blast wasn't even close to planet destroying.



Freeza deflected the blast, that's different.



> Ok, the argument I'm most irritated on is this one.
> And again, mind you, you still have not answered my question as opposed to why you're inputting ki into the marvel verse.
> _And correction, DBZ characters can not sense pure life force, they sense ki, a type of life force_, in the DBZverse exclusively(save the other shows that use the ki concept as well).



Where is it stated that KI is different/special?



> Well don't blame me, blame the OP. Anything goes in a fight, and if it's to stop you guys posting endlessly on Goku's IT, we can end it this way.
> Yes it's Goku & Superman vs Thanos but it will soon be only Superman vs Thanos.
> 
> I didn't include Supes in my argument at all. I was throwing a hypothetical scenario of what Goku vs Thanos would be like. Unfortunately, Goku isn't really a factor in this fight because the OP didn't really put any restrictions, so this is basically Supes vs Thanos.



Ohh well if you think this is a fair way of avoiding Goku, then that's up to.



> I first replied in this thread because I saw Phenomenol, and I knew that meant lies were going to get spread.



Why did you start the discussion we had about Vegeta blasts from scratch again with Phenomenol?

Damn this is getting late, it's 04.50 AM here


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 20, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> Actually according to Toriyama that was "OUR" mistake as he wrote King Kai saying...
> 
> 
> Then there is the whole thing they were Human at the time due to Krillin's wish and they were part human to begin with... Oh and another thing. Ki does NOT equal Life Force.



Oh yes, Thankyou very much! you have been a great help...It is indeed my mistake.

Ki= Spirit as stated back in Dragonball.....


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 20, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Ki= Spirit as stated back in Dragonball.....


Did I say Spirit? I said Life Force.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 20, 2006)

> They should NOT have been able to contribute SPIRIT to the SPIRIT bomb! they don't even have Spirit and it was STATED....



A scan would help.



> It is exactly like I said the many inconsistencies of the DBZ Universe.



Man inconsistencies? Such as?


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 20, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> Did I say Spirit? I said Life Force.



My bad.... I love it when people get smart with me...especially you Vjniira.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 20, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> My bad.... I love it when people get smart with me...especially you Vjniira.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Man inconsistencies? Such as?



lol, surly you've realized there are inconsistencies in Dragon Ball


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 20, 2006)

Bwhahhwhahaahahah...don't worry Vjniira it was a joke.^^


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 20, 2006)

Btw Phenomenol, could you provide those stuff I asked you in the PM. You haven't replied, haven't seen the PM yet?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 20, 2006)

> lol, surly you've realized there are inconsistencies in Dragon Ball



Inconsistencies such as?


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 20, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> He used it when he went to pick up Piccolo after picking up Tien, in Cell saga. When he could see the place, he could teleport there.



Uh... that's never stated or even implied.



> It's just that if the person is out of sight that he needs to find that persons energy to teleport there. Otherwise he teleportation places would be completly random, which wasn't the case when he teleported in front of Perfect Cell to fire the kamehameha. How else would he control _where_ exactly to teleport like when he was so close to Cell.



... Because if couldn't have a vague control of where he was going to land in the first place due to the ki sense, the entire skill would be completely and utterly useless?

He has a degree of control on where exactly he ends up near a target, as shown with Cell. But he _does_ need a ki to lock onto, which Cell conveniently provided.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 20, 2006)

And Thanos and Superman will provide him with it as well!^^^ Goku does NOT need IT for this fight Goku has more than enough skill to clock Thanos slow ass.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 20, 2006)

Let's get this straight. . .

Ki blasts are literally blasts from one's soul?


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> My bad.... I love it when people get smart with me...especially you Vjniira.



You surprise me to no end....

Anyways, you've yet to say why Android 16 wasn't revived back. And if you say another one of "many" inconsistencies, I can say the same to the differences in powers shown throughout the manga.

Also, remembering a few points, Videl WAS a normal human being just like anyone else(you've yet to prove me otherwise), so why can't I utilize my ki to fly?



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> And Thanos and Superman will provide him with it as well!^^^ Goku does NOT need IT for this fight Goku has more than enough skill to clock Thanos slow ass.


Why are you treating Superman as your enemy? He's your team in this fight. And yes, Goku will at least need IT because(yes I searched) he is nowhere on the speed of Thanos without it.
Plus, if Thanos and Supes go off the planet, Goku has no place anyways.



MSGohan said:


> He used it when he went to pick up Piccolo after picking up Tien, in Cell saga. When he could see the place, he could teleport there.
> It's just that if the person is out of sight that he needs to find that persons energy to teleport there. Otherwise he teleportation places would be completly random, which wasn't the case when he teleported in front of Perfect Cell to fire the kamehameha. How else would he control _where_ exactly to teleport like when he was so close to Cell.



Ah yes true, I see what you're saying here. Still, there's no way to counteract the Thanos being in space and leaving Goku behind argument.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 20, 2006)

I'd rather not..I answered all of your whack questions..... I dealt with you like I did Endless Mike.. Why don't you ACTUALLy put something towards the debate...why you think Thanos beats Goku.


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> I'd rather not..I answered all of your whack questions..... I dealt with you like I did Endless Mike.. Why don't you ACTUALLy put something towards the debate...why you think Thanos beats Goku.



I already put why Thanos won't even need to fight Goku. He goes off into space. What's your argument against it(obviously you haven't read just like always).


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 20, 2006)

I answered all of your whack questions concerning Ki...I have dealt with you like I did Endless Mike.... now if you simply want to deny it so be it.... Thanos can NOT fly he would Never leave the damn planet...why don't you actually contribute something to the debate.^^^


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> I answered all of your whack questions concerning Ki...I have dealt with you like I did Endless Mike.... now if you simply want to deny it so be it.... Thanos can NOT fly he would Never leave the damn planet...why don't you actually contribute something to the debate.^^^



When you're cornered, you avoid and change the subject. 

*sigh* Just answer why I can't fly like Videl. You're so ridiculous, it should be a cinch for you right? Unless you want to say it's one of many "screwups" by Toriyama again. 


And what do you know, I found ki just on an online dictionary, and judging by its description, it's far from a trait that everyone(even in fictional universes) have. It's stricly based on a culture, not speaking for everyone.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 20, 2006)

Space said:


> When you're cornered, you avoid and change the subject.
> 
> *sigh* Just answer why I can't fly like Videl. You're so ridiculous, it should be a cinch for you right? Unless you want to say it's one of many "screwups" by Toriyama again.
> 
> ...



Wow you looked it up...so what it still has nothing to do with the fact that Goku and the Z senshi senses the SPIRIT of another being period.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 20, 2006)

Again, let me get this straight.

Ki blasts and beams are blasts and beams that partly originates and contains one's very soul?


----------



## Kai (Dec 20, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Wow you looked it up...so what it still has nothing to do with the fact that Goku and the Z senshi senses the SPIRIT of another being period.



Because I wasn't replying to that. I was replying to the fact that you guys are under the impression that Ki exists all over, everywhere, and underneath my bed. 

You still didn't answer my questions, you're hopeless. Plus, we were in the middle of a debate and you go and hit on one of the NF members? Desperate much?

You'll have to be more specific with "spirit" like I don't know....Ki perhaps?


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 21, 2006)

Just like each reality has its own Gods, Ki is not a fundemental force outside of the DBU. Living beings in other universe can function without it. Thus they don't nessicarily have it. To look at an arguement objectively you must acknowledge the possibility it doesn't exist in characters outside the DBU. You must also be prepared to argue your point in an objective manor to make valid points.


----------



## Orion (Dec 21, 2006)

when goku and supes get galaxy destroying strength come back and we will have a debate until then they dont have the power to put the mad titan down.


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## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> And what do you know, I found ki just on an online dictionary, and judging by its description, it's far from a trait that everyone(even in fictional universes) have. It's stricly based on a culture, not speaking for everyone.





Vynjira said:


> Just like each reality has its own Gods, Ki is not a fundemental force outside of the DBU. Living beings in other universe can function without it. Thus they don't nessicarily have it. To look at an arguement objectively you must acknowledge the possibility it doesn't exist in characters outside the DBU. You must also be prepared to argue your point in an objective manor to make valid points.



Indeed ki, the spiritual energy, is in DB concerned as something _every_ creature has. Thanos isn't an expection. However, you argue that it only is something in DBU and can't be taken out. Well then, since there is no such thing as Power Cosmic in DBU, Goku isn't governed by it, and hence Thanos can't do anything to Goku by cosmic power control.



vlaaad12345 said:


> when goku and supes get galaxy destroying strength come back and we will have a debate until then they dont have the power to put the mad titan down.



So now Thanos has taken galaxy shattering attack?
Btw, Thanos is way to slow for Superman and Goku. As for your claim that Thanos moves thousands of time the speed of light, that is incorrect. He is no near that fast. I also explained how he could've dogded SS without being any where close to SS' speed. This is how you see it: I get the information that US has launched a rocket from the US towards my house (in DK), and I manage to escape my house before the rocket hits my house. According to you I'm faster than the rocket, or just close to it's speed.

Therefor Thanos is no where close to such high speeds. Just look at these scans, and note that he has the IG 


*Spoiler*: __ 











So where is his thousands of time SoL speed?
Btw you were also claiming that he has super reaction speed (FTL). I didn't have anything against that idea, I were believing that he could react FTL, but it seems those scans prove otherwise. Or maybe Thanos is just so slow that his super reaction speed won't even help him there? Because certainly if your speed were close to someones, if not equal, then you should be able to dogde him, if your reaction speed was greater than his. We can again consider the FPS game example. You're maybe able to move your mouse just as fast as your opponent, but if his reaction speed is greater than your's he'll shoot you first.


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 21, 2006)

At any time during those items did he need to react that fast. Does superman move at the speed of light when hes fighting people like Livewire etc? Did Goku move at the speed of light when he faught against people like Kid Buu.

Another fail.


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## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> At any time during those items did he need to react that fast. Does superman move at the speed of light when hes fighting people like Livewire etc? Did Goku move at the speed of light when he faught against people like Kid Buu.
> 
> Another fail.



There is no need for so fast movements, they just need to be faster than people like Spiderman, Wolverine and ect...

As for why Superman doesn't move that fast during battles, I don't know. It seems to be some kind of plot hole. To make the fight fair?
Because even the JLU Superman could speed blitz people. And DC doesn't seem to be taking much advantage of their speed. Because when Amazo copied Flash's power, he was just as fast as him, if not more. He proved that, when Flash tried to speed blitz him, but Amazo was just appearing behind him. But yet when Amazo later fought characters like Hawk Girl or Wonder Woman, he didn't use that speed, even though they were knocking him around. That was after he showed that could speedblitz like the Flash...


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## Rice Ball (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> There is no need for so fast movements, they just need to be faster than people like Spiderman, Wolverine and ect...



Yup just like how Goku and Superman also get hit by people much slower than themselves. What you want pictures of Goku being punched by ChiChi for putting Gohan in danger? Yeah she moves at the speed of light too now?


If Thanos had Ki, he would be smart enough to use it like Goku, infact he likely would have a hell of alot more than Goku and would use it to move much faster than Goku.

Edit- PIS? Yeah the same PIS in the scans your showing. It works both ways, trying to show 'How slow' someone is, isn't a good way to debate, it damages your own character just as much if not more.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Yup just like how Goku and Superman also get hit by people much slower than themselves. What you want pictures of Goku being punched by ChiChi for putting Gohan in danger? Yeah she moves at the speed of light too now?



Goku getting slapped by Chichi wasn't during a serious situation like Thanos getting pwned by Spiderman, Thor, Wolverine and ect... That plot was just a comic relief. And cheers for you using such a good argument. Besides that, Goku & Superman _has_ shown the ability to speedblitz. Thanos hasn't.



> If Thanos had Ki, he would be smart enough to use it like Goku, infact he likely would have a hell of alot more than Goku and would use it to move much faster than Goku.



Alright then Thanos wouldn't be using his Power Cosmic to sense Superman & Goku, because they are not governed by it. So Thanos wouldn't be teleporting those 2 into suns without touching (if he even _can_ such a thing).

EDIT: 
Thanos' situation dogding SS without superspeed can be explained.
Superman not speedblitzing could've, _if_ he'd never shown the ability to speedblitz, which he has.


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 21, 2006)

> Goku getting slapped by Chichi wasn't during a serious situation like Thanos getting pwned by Spiderman, Thor, Wolverine and ect... That plot was just a comic relief. And cheers for you using such a good argument. Besides that, Goku & Superman has shown the ability to speedblitz. Thanos hasn't.



Thanos has shown the ability to counter speedsters, see Eros/Captain Marvel etc etc. He also Melees with speedsters like surfer and wins.
I'm repeating myself.
Please post scans of Superman and Goku moving at lightspeed. You've ignored this request 3 times now, claiming a situation happened without backing it up is considered trolling this forum. Last warning.



> Alright then Thanos wouldn't be using his Power Cosmic to sense Superman & Goku, because they are not governed by it. So Thanos wouldn't be teleporting those 2 into suns without touching (if he even can such a thing).



No he'd use Ki. He'd also speedblitz them. Good job Thanos doesn't have Ki eh?

His teleportation is technology and he would be, you must have missed the scan AGAIN!


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Thanos has shown the ability to counter speedsters, see Eros/Captain Marvel etc etc. He also Melees with speedsters like surfer and wins.
> I'm repeating myself.



Has those "speedsters" ever shown the ability to move as fast as they fly in battles, or speedblitz anyone? Thanos hasn't shown the ability to move fast, therefor I ask that question.

EDIT:
LIke Thor can travel FTL light, but can't fight anywhere close to those speeds, as I earlier showed scans where he was getting speedblitz by Spiderman.

(Damn Spiderman seems to the GOAT )



> Please post scans of Superman and Goku moving at lightspeed. You've ignored this request 3 times now, claiming a situation happened without backing it up is considered trolling this forum. Last warning.



Speed in DBZ is indetermined. The only thing we can deduce is that they in DB could move faster than the human eye could see, and be fast enough to create after images of them self. And that Goku in the saiyan saga could move 35 km/s.
And there is no need for Superman to move at light speed in the battle. He can just move "fast". No I don't know wether Superman can battle at the speed of light. His fast enough to catch bullets though, and some other stuff like Bullet provided. Spiderman isn't faster than Superman, even in battle.

I provided you scans were Thanos get's hit by Spiderman, Wolverine, Thor and ect.  Which shows how slow Thanos is. If Eros moved FTL in battle, and managed to punch, then he should be dogding or blocking all of those attack from the scans I provided without effort. He should've been able to do that, with his hands tied behind his back, and eyes closed. But that wasn't the case, he was getting tagged by them. Besides that if he just had let them tag him, why then did Spiderman's kick even effect him? If he was like "the man of steel", for Spiderman it should've been like kicking at a solid unbreakable wall. That wasn't the case...


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 21, 2006)

Yes, Captain Marvel basically has the superman powerset but is a Marvel character.
I also posted the scans of Eros earlier. Please pay attension, i don't enjoy repeating myself.
Thanos offical marvel bio states him to have superhuman reflexs and speed.


And i've posted scans of Thanos meleeing with Speedsters like Surfer etc.
Naruto moves faster than the human eye, i dare you to post he moves at lightspeed in the ramen house.
In summery you can't, you are debating about a subject you have no knowledge about.


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## Vynjira (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Indeed ki, the spiritual energy, is in DB concerned as something _every_ creature has. Thanos isn't an expection. However, you argue that it only is something in DBU and can't be taken out. Well then, since there is no such thing as Power Cosmic in DBU, Goku isn't governed by it, and hence Thanos can't do anything to Goku by cosmic power control.


VERY bad analogy, because by that logic now Ki has no effect on Thanos at all. Power of cosmic works because his opponent doesn't need to have it in order for it to work. Sensing Ki requires the opponent to have Ki. Thanos can use the power of cosmic on beings that don't have the power of cosmic as Goku can use Ki attacks on people that don't have or can't use. However just like Thanos can't sense the power of Cosmic in Goku, Goku likewise cannot sense the Ki in Thanos. Because respectively neither have what they would be sensing for.

EDIT: Thanos doesn't just evade everything he likes taking hits. That fight with Thor he was smiling as he was getting beat on. He was enjoying the taste of competition. Then once he's had his fill he ends it.


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## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Yes, Captain Marvel basically has the superman powerset but is a Marvel character.
> I also posted the scans of Eros earlier. Please pay attension, i don't enjoy repeating myself.
> Thanos offical marvel bio states him to have superhuman reflexs and speed.



I see you just ignored my points... That's another way of going around arguments.
Did you notice how many times I had to repeat my self before people started to realize what I was talking about?
This is what you started out claiming



			
				Rice Ball said:
			
		

> He is very likely slower than Superman, but has reaction speeds enabling him to fight people faster than him (Like Surfer/Thor/Marvel/Eros etc)



And I had to repeat my self several times, that reaction speed doesn't matter if you can't move close to your opponents battle speed. Then you slowly went other to the idea that Thanos moves thousands of times the speed of light. Despite the fact that he was being tagged by Spiderman speedy characters.
Besides I did replied about your scans with Eros (several times even), incase you didn't notice.

Maybe Superman also can't move fast in battles.

Superhuman reflexs and speed? The same goes for Spiderman... There is no way to determine how fast that is.



> *And i've posted scans of Thanos meleeing with Speedsters like Surfer etc.*
> Naruto moves faster than the human eye, i dare you to post he moves at lightspeed in the ramen house.
> In summery you can't, you are debating about a subject you have no knowledge about.



Because of that line, I'm not going to waste more of my time to reply to you after this. You have the intelligence to know why (hint: My replies through out the last many pages).

Your second statement is also a complete misunderstanding of my point. I just said that they in DB (not DBZ) could move that fast (and you ignored the afterimage feat, but that's ok). I was just hinting that this is the lower limit for their speed, and you took it that I was implying that they could move lightspeed, while I in the same reply said that their speed is indeterminable.


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## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> VERY bad analogy, because by that logic now Ki has no effect on Thanos at all. Power of cosmic works because his opponent doesn't need to have it in order for it to work. Sensing Ki requires the opponent to have Ki. Thanos can use the power of cosmic on beings that don't have the power of cosmic as Goku can use Ki attacks on people that don't have or can't use. However just like Thanos can't sense the power of Cosmic in Goku, Goku likewise cannot sense the Ki in Thanos. Because respectively neither have what they would be sensing for.



Ok, I thought that it was something people in the MU was governed by like a fundamental law?



> EDIT: Thanos doesn't just evade everything he likes taking hits. That fight with Thor he was smiling as he was getting beat on. He was enjoying the taste of competition. Then once he's had his fill he ends it.



He only smiled when he opened the portal and Mjolner went into it. He never smiled when he was getting hit


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## Vynjira (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> He only smiled when he opened the portal and Mjolner went into it. He never smiled when he was getting hit



*Spoiler*: _This fight with Thor_


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## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> *Spoiler*: _This fight with Thor_



That is something many characters has done to look badass. It doesn't imply they can move faster and avoid their hits, only that Thor's hits didn't effect him very much. However if he also had shown the ability to speedblitz Thor and make a fool of him like Spiderman did to Thor, then you could conclude that he took all the hits on purpose. But that isn't the case.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> That is something many characters has done to look badass. It doesn't imply they can move faster and avoid their hits, only that Thor's hits didn't effect him very much.


That's Thor with Power Gem..

*Spoiler*: _Power Gem_ 



Contains access to all power and energy that ever has or will exist, and backs the other gems and boosts their effects. Allows the user to duplicate almost any physical superhuman ability and become invincible and therefore unbeatable when using raw power alone.





MSGohan said:


> However if he also had shown the ability to speedblitz Thor and make a fool of him like Spiderman did to Thor, then you could conclude that he took all the hits on purpose. But that isn't the case.


Spiderman would not have made a fool of Thor with the power gem, in addition at that point anyone trying to speedblitz Thor woulda been fucked. As that Thor was unbeatable by raw power alone. The fact Thanos stood there and took those hits proves the guy likes to get hit. Evidence is later how he disabled Thor with ease using a special gun he had. Instead of getting it when Thor first showed up he wanted to test his mettle against Thor with Power Gem.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> That's Thor with Power Gem..
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Power Gem_
> 
> ...



Still doesn't prove anything about Thanos' speed, which is what I'm arguing about. There is no evidence of how fast Thor was moving. Thanos didn't dogde any attacks like it was nothing, he just took the punishment. Yes his strong. But that's not what I'm trying to argue about.


----------



## Vynjira (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Still doesn't prove anything about Thanos' speed, which is what I'm arguing about. There is no evidence of how fast Thor was moving. Thanos didn't dogde any attacks like it was nothing, he just took the punishment. Yes his strong. But that's not what I'm trying to argue about.


Actually it quite actively negates the statement "How come he can't dodge these people if he is so fast?" because it proves he is more willing to take a hit than avoid it.

EDIT: Out to work.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Vynjira said:


> Actually it quite actively negates the statement "How come he can't dodge these people if he is so fast?" because it proves he is more willing to take a hit than avoid it.
> 
> EDIT: Out to work.



Well since he didn't dogde those people, then you can't conclude that he just wanted to their hits on purpose, just because he did it in that situation you provided. And you can't conclude that he could be faster then them.
If Thanos has speedblitzed anyone, or just dogded/blocked their attacks by showing some insane speed to impress his opponents or something, then that's a different story. But if he hasn't done such a thing, the idea that he can move _thousands of times the speed of light_ is too far fecthed.
It's just that I'm not buying the statement that he dogded SS with some thousand times c, when there is an explaination, that he could've dogded SS without being anywhere close to those speeds. For me the last seems much more probable.


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:
			
		

> Indeed ki, the spiritual energy, is in DB concerned as something every creature has. Thanos isn't an expection. However, you argue that it only is something in DBU and can't be taken out. Well then, since there is no such thing as Power Cosmic in DBU, Goku isn't governed by it, and hence Thanos can't do anything to Goku by cosmic power control


Alright you're getting desperate here. I've never seen peanut butter in the DBZverse, does that mean it doesn't exist?
You've never been to Antarctica(I'm assuming you haven't),does that mean it doesn't exist?

And answer my question because I'm expecting more out of you than Phenomenol- Why can't I utilize my ki to fly like Videl?


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> Alright you're getting desperate here. I've never seen peanut butter in the DBZverse, does that mean it doesn't exist?
> You've never been to Antarctica(I'm assuming you haven't),does that mean it doesn't exist?



I'm confused now, are you refering to the Power Cosmic thing?



> And answer my question because I'm expecting more out of you than Phenomenol- Why can't I utilize my ki to fly like Videl?



It's a believe, made to a fact in the fiction world.

PS: Don't talk down to other members.


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 21, 2006)

So you ignore what i write. Then complain because you run into the same walls where you are unable to answer.

The fact is Thanos has faught speedsters. They have always had the speed advantage over him but he manages to combat them. He has also shown the ability to move at high speed as well as react to it.


I'm also still waiting for you to show me how Superman and Goku are going to speed blitz Thanos.


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## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> I'm confused now, are you refering to the Power Cosmic thing?


It's the same analogy, yes.





			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> It's a believe, made to a fact in the fiction world.



The EXACT same thing you're saying here is to ki.

Plus, I want to see your answers on:
1. When the Z warriors(because I don't remember who specifically) wished everyone killed by Cell brought back to life, where was Android 16?
2. How could Android 17 contribute to the Genki Dama?


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> So you ignore what i write. Then complain because you run into the same walls where you are unable to answer.



I'm tired of repeating myself, so when you don't get the point, I'm not going to repeat anymore. As it took me so many pages just to make people realize that super reaction speed doesn't imply super speed.



> The fact is Thanos has faught speedsters. They have always had the speed advantage over him but he manages to combat them. He has also shown the ability to move at high speed as well as react to it.



Do you know how many times this is repeated now? I've replied to them, I suggest that you read my replies, and then come with something fresh, instead of repeating.



> I'm also still waiting for you to show me how Superman and Goku are going to speed blitz Thanos.



Did you know that the answer to this, is an implication to what we're already discussing?

You keep avoiding arguments by just asking other question...


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## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> It's the same analogy, yes.



Same analogy? So were you pointing that indeed Goku wouldn't be governed by the Power Cosmic? Or were you saying that Goku and DBU _is_ governed by the Power Cosmic?



> The EXACT same thing you're saying here is to ki.
> 
> Plus, I want to see your answers on:
> 1. When the Z warriors(because I don't remember who specifically) wished everyone killed by Cell brought back to life, where was Android 16?
> 2. How could Android 17 contribute to the Genki Dama?



It is simply the _lifeforce_ that they sense. So creatures only has lifeforce in DBU?
1. No 16 weren't there.
2. By energy, the Genki Dama can get energy from inanimate (lifeless) objects like Vynjira posted earlier. It is stated here.

The DBZ characters could sense creatures, but _only_ cyborgs and robots proved that they could go undetected. Thanos is neither of them, how would he go undetected?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:
			
		

> 2. By energy, the Genki Dama can get energy from inanimate (lifeless) objects like Vynjira posted earlier. It is stated here.



However, this is argued by



Vynjira said:


> Actually according to Toriyama that was "OUR" mistake as he wrote King Kai saying...
> 
> 
> Then there is the whole thing they were Human at the time due to Krillin's wish and they were part human to begin with... Oh and another thing. Ki does NOT equal Life Force.


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Same analogy? So were you pointing that indeed Goku wouldn't be governed by the Power Cosmic? Or were you saying that Goku and DBU _is_ governed by the Power Cosmic?


I don't see why you're using the word governed here. And no, I was posting those examples from using "your logic".
Cosmic Awareness let's you perceive things before they get to you. It's ability that Thanos has, not Goku. But you're including DBU's philosophy INTO Thanos.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> It is simply the _lifeforce_ that they sense. So creatures only has lifeforce in DBU?
> 1. No 16 weren't there.
> 2. By energy, the Genki Dama can get energy from inanimate (lifeless) objects like Vynjira posted earlier. It is stated here.
> 
> The DBZ characters could sense creatures, but _only_ cyborgs and robots proved that they could go undetected. Thanos is neither of them, how would he go undetected?


1. Then where was he? He was destroyed by Cell, why wasn't he brought back to life? State the answer, don't drag it out.
2. I thought Vynjira posted that it was a screw up by Toriyama..?

Wrong here. Z warriors can't sense inanimate objects like the Dragonballs or else they wouldn't need the Dragon Radar to find them.
If you're saying Thanos has ki, are you saying that's what he's using to fly?

Why can't I fly like Videl? You still haven't directly answered the question, and your answer was the same thing as what ki is.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> However, this is argued by



We're discussing why 17 and 18 couldn't be sensed, right? And that's because they're cyborgs, not normal creatures.


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> We're discussing why 17 and 18 couldn't be sensed, right? And that's because they're cyborgs, not normal creatures.



....and the fact that they're in the DBU.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> I don't see why you're using the word governed here. And no, I was posting those examples from using "your logic".
> Cosmic Awareness let's you perceive things before they get to you. It's ability that Thanos has, not Goku. But you're including DBU's philosophy INTO Thanos.



Power Cosmic is only something in MU. Isn't it like a fundamental phenomena in MU? Like gravity is a fundamental force. 
Now consider a fictional universe where there is no gravity, and you want to compare a character A from that fictional universe to some other character B from another universe where there is gravity. Say for example that B can control gravity, to for example crush people by gravitational force and so. But since there is no such thing as gravity in A's universe, B wouldn't be able to crush A by gravitational force, because A isn't governed by the gravitational force.
That's why you need to explain, what is the Power Cosmic. Isn't it something that people in the MU is governed by, and there are people who can control it? However if it is just some power like Superman's heat vision and so on, then ofcourse it can be used against any other characters.



> 1. Then where was he? He was destroyed by Cell, why wasn't he brought back to life? State the answer, don't drag it out.
> 2. I thought Vynjira posted that it was a screw up by Toriyama..?
> 
> Wrong here. Z warriors can't sense inanimate objects like the Dragonballs or else they wouldn't need the Dragon Radar to find them.
> ...



1. This doesn't have much relevans to our discussion. But 16 wasn't revived. I thought that was clear to you...

2. Screw up by Akira Toriyama? That 17 and 18 could contribute to the Genki Dama? While Kaio-sama stated that even inanimate objects can lend energy?
Otherwise specify what you mean by screw up.
The reason they couldn't detect 17 and 18 were because they were cyborgs.

And I never stated that they can sense inanimate object, only that inanimate object can give energy to the Genki Dama as it is stated in the scan.

That is a belief made to a fact in the DB fiction. What is so unclear about this?


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Power Cosmic is only something in MU. Isn't it like a fundamental phenomena in MU? Like gravity is a fundamental force.
> Now consider a fictional universe where there is no gravity, and you want to compare a character A from that fictional universe to some other character B from another universe where there is gravity. Say for example that B can control gravity, to for example crush people by gravitational force and so. But since there is no such thing as gravity in A's universe, B wouldn't be able to crush A by gravitational force, because A isn't governed by the gravitational force.


Good example if you're implying it to Goku. False if you're implying it to Thanos because:
Thanos has cosmic awareness(does he have power cosmic? that would up his chances even more), and that's HIS ability.
In the DBU, Goku has ki just like everyone else, but you're putting Ki INTO Thanos. Thanos isn't imputting his cosmic awareness ability INTO Goku.




			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> That's why you need to explain, what is the Power Cosmic. Isn't it something that people in the MU is governed by, and there are people who can control it? However if it is just some power like Superman's heat vision and so on, then ofcourse it can be used against any other characters.



"Power Cosmic is the ability to manipulate and control the ambiant energies of the fabric of the universe to perform various effects. From energy blasts to being able to time travel and so on. Its a power like sorcery in a way but that draws energy from alien realities or alien beings while the PC isf rom the normal universe. Few beings can use it, it seems to be only granted by Galactus who is the most powerful use of the PC. 

It can be seen as a plot device power, but since it is drawing upon such vast amounts of power a person using it is limited by skill, there ability to channel enough energy for an effect and their willingness to do something with the power. ITs more or less limited by the imagination itself."

I don't remember Thanos having it...



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> 1. This doesn't have much relevans to our discussion. But 16 wasn't revived. I thought that was clear to you...
> 
> 2. Screw up by Akira Toriyama? That 17 and 18 could contribute to the Genki Dama? While Kaio-sama stated that even inanimate objects can lend energy?
> Otherwise specify what you mean by screw up.
> The reason they couldn't detect 17 and 18 were because they were cyborgs.


1. Actually it does, because it relates to Toriyama's screwups. No it wasn't made clear to me because you have not given me a direct answer. I don't get why it's so hard for you to answer it, it should be a cinch for you right?
Why wasn't Android 16 revived from the Dragonballs? State a direct answer.



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> And I never stated that they can sense inanimate object, only that inanimate object can give energy to the Genki Dama as it is stated in the scan.


You stated that only cyborgs couldn't be sensed...so I countered your argument.



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> That is a *belief made to a fact in the DB fiction*. What is so unclear about this?



Yes, what ki is.


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> I'm tired of repeating myself, so when you don't get the point, I'm not going to repeat anymore. As it took me so many pages just to make people realize that super reaction speed doesn't imply super speed.



And it doesn't have to be, all we have been saying is Thanos has thought people with super speed on meny occasions, he also doesn't show any speed blitz feats himself (maybe Thanos v Surfer could be considered a speed blitz if you consider how the battle went).
So 90% of the people here have concluded that Thanos has the ability to combat superspeed people, for example tagging them when they attempt the blitz like he did to Eros and Mar-Vell. 
I was seriously enjoying debating with you untill you started failing to answer and then repeating useless statements.



MSGohan said:


> Do you know how many times this is repeated now? I've replied to them, I suggest that you read my replies, and then come with something fresh, instead of repeating.



Your answers didn't follow logic, you then failed to combat my rebuttal. Hell if thought the debate was over untill you started repeating yourself to other people.



MSGohan said:


> Did you know that the answer to this, is an implication to what we're already discussing?
> 
> You keep avoiding arguments by just asking other question...



And you've avoided this question for 10 pages now.
Every thing you say is pretty much void as it doesn't matter about Thanos speed if his enemys aren't speedsters.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> Good example if you're implying it to Goku. False if you're implying it to Thanos because:
> Thanos has cosmic awareness(does he have power cosmic? that would up his chances even more), and that's HIS ability.
> In the DBU, Goku has ki just like everyone else, but you're putting Ki INTO Thanos. Thanos isn't imputting his cosmic awareness ability INTO Goku.
> 
> ...



So it's not like a fundamental force governing the MU.



> 1. Actually it does, because it relates to Toriyama's screwups. No it wasn't made clear to me because you have not given me a direct answer. I don't get why it's so hard for you to answer it, it should be a cinch for you right?
> Why wasn't Android 16 revived from the Dragonballs? State a direct answer.
> 
> *You stated that only cyborgs couldn't be sensed...so I countered your argument.*



Among creatures. So that point you are trying to make with 16 isn't useful. Why don't you just make you argument about the 16, instead arguing by making me answer question and then use it as an argument. Just say your argument and include the facts.
What you want to say is that 16 wasn't brought bad to life, because he was just a robot and not a living being. But 17 & 18 were brought back. You are trying to say that some "living creatures" can't be sensed, like 17 & 18. Since they were brought back to live they are alive.
The reason they were brought back is because they're not robots but cyborgs (I'm sure you know the difference). They couldn't be sensed because they are cyborgs, hence not normal living creatures.
KI is just the energy inside your body. But the androids weren't creatures, and therefor it wasn't the same as for the creatures, and hence they couldn't be sensed.
But only androids proved to go undetected by the DBZ characters, no other creatures did. Thanos isn't an android, his a creature, he has energy, and it is that energy that can be sensed. Now you can't deny that people don't have energy, how else do you move. You need energy to move, breath, live and ect.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> And it doesn't have to be, all we have been saying is Thanos has thought people with super speed on meny occasions, he also doesn't show any speed blitz feats himself (maybe Thanos v Surfer could be considered a speed blitz if you consider how the battle went).
> So 90% of the people here have concluded that Thanos has the ability to combat superspeed people, for example tagging them when they attempt the blitz like he did to Eros and Mar-Vell.
> I was seriously enjoying debating with you untill you started failing to answer and then repeating useless statements.
> 
> Your answers didn't follow logic, you then failed to combat my rebuttal. Hell if thought the debate was over untill you started repeating yourself to other people.



Your argument is that Thanos can move thousands of times the speed of light, based on the SS dogding feat. I explained how he could've dogded that without being close to SS' speed. I wouldn't have needed to explain it, if Thanos weren't being tagged by characters like Spiderman, Thor, Thing, Hulk, Wolverine and ect. Because all that oppose the idea that Thanos can move that much faster than light.
There is no proof of how fast Eros was moving against Thanos. You say that Eros moves FTL, but there is no proof of that either in the battle. Thus can't be concluded.



> And you've avoided this question for 10 pages now.
> Every thing you say is pretty much void as it doesn't matter about Thanos speed if his enemys aren't speedsters.



I was only trying to debate Thanos' speed. DBZ speed has been discussed without the reach of any conclusion, thus can't be determined after the saiyan saga.
And now you're saying Superman and Goku aren't speedsters. In DBZ they seem to be moving faster in battles than their flight. It seems to be the quite opposite for Superman, I don't know. Like in DB they could dogde/catch bullet, but their running/flying speed wasn't anywhere close to that.


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> So it's not like a fundamental force governing the MU.


Wait I'm not sure, but Thanos has Power Cosmic? Cosmic Awareness is Thanos' ability, I don't see why it would change in any other universe. In conclusion, yes it would prove effective against Goku.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Among creatures. So that point you are trying to make with 16 isn't useful. Why don't you just make you argument about the 16, instead arguing by making me answer question and then use it as an argument. Just say your argument and include the facts.
> What you want to say is that 16 wasn't brought bad to life, because he was just a robot and not a living being.


Then you're stating that 17 and 18 are alive. You and Phenomenol's definition of ki was just simply "being alive!" was it not?
You can't explain how 17 could have contributed to the Genki Dama.




			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> But 17 & 18 were brought back. You are trying to say that some "living creatures" can't be sensed, like 17 & 18. Since they were brought back to live they are alive.
> The reason they were brought back is because they're not robots but cyborgs (I'm sure you know the difference). They couldn't be sensed because they are cyborgs, hence not normal living creatures.


Now you're saying they're alive. My point of Android 16 is to exploit many of "Toriyama's screwups" like Phenomenol said. You know what Vynjira posted- the thing about inanimate objects contributing to the spirit bomb, was one of "Toriyama's screwups" right?



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> KI is just the energy inside your body. But the androids weren't creatures, and therefor it wasn't the same as for the creatures, and hence they couldn't be sensed.


There is no way you're convincing anyone that Goku can sense Thanos. You still pass by questions that you have the inability to answer. You're saying that everyone in every fictional universe and in real life has ki.
It's not a scientific law, it's a belief. It's not even proven, it's YOURS and phenomenol and jplaya's belief. Stop imputting Ki into Thanos because he has 0.
How can Videl fly? She utilized her ki to fly. Why can't I fly? Because I don't have ki. It's simple. Face it, Ki is strictly in the DBU(save other shows that use ki as a concept as well).



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> But only androids proved to go undetected by the DBZ characters, no other creatures did. Thanos isn't an android, his a creature, he has energy, and it is that energy that can be sensed. Now you can't deny that people don't have energy, how else do you move. You need energy to move, breath, live and ect.


Thanos has energy, but he does not have ki. You're saying if noone has ki, we all die? Ki is a belief, and not a basis explanation for all life forces in other universe, only in the DBU. Keep it there. 

PS: Answer my questions, please. If you have the inability to do so, just say I don't know or something.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

> We're discussing why 17 and 18 couldn't be sensed, right? And that's because they're cyborgs, not normal creatures.



Understandable.

Though, the Genki Dama shouldn't be able to draw upon the energy of non-living objects and things.

17 and 18 definitely contributed to the Genki Dama. That indicates that they are not non-living.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Though, the Genki Dama shouldn't be able to draw upon the energy of *non-living objects* and things.
> 
> 17 and 18 definitely contributed to the Genki Dama. That indicates that they are not non-living.



Why shouldn't it be able to do so? Kaio-sama did state that it can get energy from inanimate objects.. 
Inanimate = Not animate; destitute of life or spirit; lifeless; dead;
   inactive; dull;


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Why shouldn't it be able to do so? Kaio-sama did state that it can get energy from inanimate objects..
> Inanimate = Not animate; destitute of life or spirit; lifeless; dead;
> inactive; dull;



I told you, that was a screw up by Toriyama where Vynjira posted.


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Your argument is that Thanos can move thousands of times the speed of light, based on the SS dogding feat. I explained how he could've dogded that without being close to SS' speed. I wouldn't have needed to explain it, if Thanos weren't being tagged by characters like Spiderman, Thor, Thing, Hulk, Wolverine and ect. Because all that oppose the idea that Thanos can move that much faster than light.
> There is no proof of how fast Eros was moving against Thanos. You say that Eros moves FTL, but there is no proof of that either in the battle. Thus can't be concluded..



Please read my last post again. I have also said superman has been tagged by people ALOT slower than he is meant to be, what you are trying to say here is meaning less, i've shown you Thanos fighting speedsters and winning. I don't see the further need for discussion but you bring it up for me to give you the same answer again and again. 

As for Eros, what speed do you think someone flying from one solar system to another would need to go? Yup faster than lightspeed.
Eros flew from Titan to Thanos ship which was along way away, flew through the hull and assaulted Thanos.
Captain Marvel attacked Thanos and was caught mid flight while circling him (you know, like Superman does) Captain Marvel is a speedster, hes pretty much Marvels early superman.




MSGohan said:


> I was only trying to debate Thanos' speed. DBZ speed has been discussed without the reach of any conclusion, thus can't be determined after the saiyan saga.
> And now you're saying Superman and Goku aren't speedsters. In DBZ they seem to be moving faster in battles than their flight. It seems to be the quite opposite for Superman, I don't know. Like in DB they could dogde/catch bullet, but their running/flying speed wasn't anywhere close to that.



Theres no point debaiting Thanos speed if you can't prove his enemys speed, Thanos tech, durability and strength is likely much greater than both his enemys.

So tell me, do you believe Superman and Goku will speedblitz thanos and kill him without him doing a thing about it?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

> Why shouldn't it be able to do so? Kaio-sama did state that it can get energy from inanimate objects..
> Inanimate = Not animate; destitute of life or spirit; lifeless; dead;
> inactive; dull;



According to the translation.

From my experiences with other DBZ fans, the NA translation of the original Japanese DBZ manga had numerous translated errors.

In addition, drawing upon energy originating from the non-living defeats the meaning of the name "Spirit Bomb". Why not call it energy bomb then?


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> According to the translation.
> 
> From my experiences with other DBZ fans, the NA translation of the original Japanese DBZ manga had numerous translated errors.
> 
> In addition, drawing upon energy originating from the non-living defeats the meaning of the name "Spirit Bomb". Why not call it energy bomb then?



Really, does Kaio-sama says something else in correct translation?

Btw the "Spirit Bomb" is just the english word for it, Genki = Energy, Dama = Ball.


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Really, does Kaio-sama says something else in correct translation?
> 
> Btw the "Spirit Bomb" is just the english word for it, Genki = Energy, Dama = Ball.



It's not a matter of translation it was a mistake made by Toriyama, as agreed by Phenomenol and posted by Vynjira a few pages back.

The Genki Dama is the combination of every life form's ki into one gigantic bomb.


1,000 posts w00t!


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

> Really, does Kaio-sama says something else in correct translation?
> 
> Btw the "Spirit Bomb" is just the english word for it, Genki = Energy, Dama = Ball.



A scan of the original Japanese panel and a Japanese translator here (one of the scanslators from Shannaro! perhaps) will help.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> Then you're stating that 17 and 18 are alive. You and Phenomenol's definition of ki was just simply "being alive!" was it not?
> You can't explain how 17 could have contributed to the Genki Dama.



I can't? Didn't you read what kaio-sama said? Inanimate object can contribute to the GD.



> Now you're saying they're alive. My point of Android 16 is to exploit many of "Toriyama's screwups" like Phenomenol said. You know what Vynjira posted- the thing about inanimate objects contributing to the spirit bomb, was one of "Toriyama's screwups" right?



Why is it a screwup if AT stated that inanimate can contribute? That means that androids can contribute too. Which they also did.



> There is no way you're convincing anyone that Goku can sense Thanos. You still pass by questions that you have the inability to answer. You're saying that everyone in every fictional universe and in real life has ki.
> It's not a scientific law, it's a belief. It's not even proven, it's YOURS and phenomenol and jplaya's belief. Stop imputting Ki into Thanos because he has 0.
> How can Videl fly? She utilized her ki to fly. Why can't I fly? Because I don't have ki. It's simple. Face it, Ki is strictly in the DBU(save other shows that use ki as a concept as well).
> 
> ...



The energy that creatures have inside their body is _called_ ki in DB. Every creature has energy. Thanos has energy, and since his a creature, that energy that he posses can be sensed. Because only cyborgs and robots showed that their energy could go undetected. Thanos is no cyborg nor is he a robot, he is a creature. A creature has energy, everything has energy. What is so unclear about this? Drop the explainations you'd given before, with that you have be "alive", whatever that means, to be able to be sensed.
The energy that creatures posses can be sensed.

What question now? I answered you. You need to learn to read answers in debates. This is not math, where you get the answer in one word/line.
If my answer is unclear, please point out _what_ exactly is unclear.



Space said:


> I told you, that was a screw up by Toriyama where Vynjira posted.



I explained this too. There is no screw up. Kaio stated inanimate objects can contribute, and 17 & 18 contributing to Genki Dama doesn't contradicts this.



Rice Ball said:


> Please read my last post again. I have also said superman has been tagged by people ALOT slower than he is meant to be, what you are trying to say here is meaning less, i've shown you Thanos fighting speedsters and winning. I don't see the further need for discussion but you bring it up for me to give you the same answer again and again.



Expect that Thanos hasn't shown the ability to move as fast as you claim (FTL). Superman has shown the ability to speedblitz people. I don't have the scan, but I've seen him do it in JLU, and in comics where he speedblitzes opponents leaving afterimages.



> As for Eros, what speed do you think someone flying from one solar system to another would need to go? Yup faster than lightspeed.
> Eros flew from Titan to Thanos ship which was along way away, flew through the hull and assaulted Thanos.
> Captain Marvel attacked Thanos and was caught mid flight while circling him (you know, like Superman does) Captain Marvel is a speedster, hes pretty much Marvels early superman.



Thor can also fly FTL, but he can't fight FTL, as he was being speedblitz by Spiderman, where even _he_ himself admitted that he couldn't keep up to Spidey's speed.



> Theres no point debaiting Thanos speed if you can't prove his enemys speed, Thanos tech, durability and strength is likely much greater than both his enemys.
> 
> So tell me, do you believe Superman and Goku will speedblitz thanos and kill him without him doing a thing about it?



The lower limit for Goku's speed is 35 km/s in saiyan saga. Their flying speed is much lower then their battle in DBZ, as I said earlier. Gotenks flew around the world the world "a few dozen times" as he states in correct translation (not the Dranet's translation). Now even if we assume he took those laps in 30 min (despite the fact that saiyans would die in the vacuum of space), Gotenks' speed would be about 500 km/s. This is a lower limit for Gotenks' flight speed, and battle speed is even greater than flight speed, as I mentioned.
So Goku wouldn't be slower than Spiderman...

I showed scans where he was getting tagged by those character, who we know arent close to light speed. You showed me the fight against Eros, and said that since Eros made his travel FTL his combat speed is also FTL. But there is no evidence that Eros moved FTL in the battle.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:
			
		

> You and Phenomenol's definition of ki was just simply "being alive!" was it not?



No, Ki was DEFINED in Dragonball as SPIRIT!!!!! Goku senses the Spirit of an individual!!!!!! I have answered all of your questions now move on....



			
				Riceball said:
			
		

> As for Eros, what speed do you think someone flying from one solar system to another would need to go? Yup faster than lightspeed.
> Eros flew from Titan to Thanos ship which was along way away, flew through the hull and assaulted Thanos.
> Captain Marvel attacked Thanos and was caught mid flight while circling him (you know, like Superman does) Captain Marvel is a speedster, hes pretty much Marvels early superman.



Thanos doesn't have FTL reflexes. If an attack was really coming for him at those speeds, in all honesty I wouldn't see him dodging it. There's no proof that Marvel and Eros was moving at light speed when Thanos tagged him. I've never seen Thanos move that fast before anywhere to be honest. Just because Eros traveled LINEAR to get to Thanos at lightspeed does NOT mean he had  FTL reflexes against Thanos.

Superman and Goku are way FASTER than Thanos....I do NOT see Thanos touching anyone who fights at Super speed!


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

> No, Ki was DEFINED in Dragonball as SPIRIT!!!!! Goku senses the Spirit of an individual!!!!!! I have answered all of your questions now move on....



And thus, ki blasts and ki beams are blasts and beams of one's very _soul_?


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> And thus, ki blasts and ki beams are blasts and beams of one's very _soul_?



hmm... I think we are misunderstanding this concept.
Ki would is just a word for the energy that living creatures has. Like you have energy to move, and so on. In DB they can just control and harness that energy. They could also sense that energy. But only the cyborgs and robots seemed to be "resistant" to this detetection.


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 21, 2006)

I can't be asked to repeat myself again.
You ignore parts of my post that you can't answer.

I post- Thanos had reacted and faught against speedsters, you post 'So thanos moves FTLS' its getting very boring, i can't be bothered to explain something again that you don't understand after 3 or 4 times.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> And thus, ki blasts and ki beams are blasts and beams of one's very _soul_?



Yep probably...they somehow Harnish it into energy. That is why when they usually run OUT of Ki (spirit) they are usually on the brink of death!!!!


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 21, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> I can't be asked to repeat myself again.
> You ignore parts of my post that you can't answer.
> 
> I post- Thanos had reacted and faught against speedsters, you post 'So thanos moves FTLS' its getting very boring, i can't be bothered to explain something again that you don't understand after 3 or 4 times.



Okay...Thanos has fought against speedsters and....Were you arguing that he fights at FTL speeds and that he could tagg Goku?. Hell, Goku ALWAYS fights at super speed.


----------



## Hamaru (Dec 21, 2006)

I guess I've been gone for a while, but why the huge talk about ki?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

> Yep probably...they somehow Harnish it into energy. That is why when they usually run OUT of Ki (spirit) they are usually on the brink of death!!!!



Is there a scan that confirms this? You sure that you're not differentiating from the soul of a person from the energy that all inherent living things possess in DBZ?


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> I can't? Didn't you read what kaio-sama said? Inanimate object can contribute to the GD.


Are you saying there are no mistakes made in the DB manga?
Are you saying the Dragonballs also contribute to the Genki Dama? Not true.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Why is it a screwup if AT stated that inanimate can contribute? That means that androids can contribute too. Which they also did.


Why can't it be a screwup? It's a combination of all ki energies. We've never seen any inanimate object contribute to the Genki Dama, and if inanimate objects like the Dragonballs could contribute to the Genki dama, they would have no power whatsoever.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> The energy that creatures have inside their body is _called_ ki in DB. Every creature has energy. Thanos has energy, and since his a creature, that energy that he posses can be sensed.


What you're basically saying here is that Goku can sense _all_ energies? Non-sense. He can only sense someone's ki, which only exists in the DBU.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Because only cyborgs and robots showed that their energy could go undetected. Thanos is no cyborg nor is he a robot, he is a creature. A creature has energy, everything has energy. What is so unclear about this?


Thanos doesn't have ki. Wanna ask Jim Starlin if he has ki or not?
If the creator doesn't include it as an energy source or life force, the character does not have it.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Drop the explainations you'd given before, with that you have be "alive", whatever that means, to be able to be sensed.
> The energy that creatures posses can be sensed.


Alright you know he can't be sensed and you're just arguing with me just for the sake of arguing. Accepting your illogical concept that Thanos has ki(an impossible hypothetical situation), there would still be some things you need to consider:
Goku has lost track of people with much larger ki readings than Thanos(Cell). His sensing capabilities aren't perfect, but they're on the spot.
How will Goku sense Thanos when he's teleporting all over space with just a human ki reading?



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> What question now? I answered you. You need to learn to read answers in debates. This is not math, where you get the answer in one word/line.
> *If my answer is unclear, please point out what exactly is unclear*.


That's impossible because you're not even giving me an answer. You said that flying was a _belief made into a fact in the DBU_. The same thing with Ki, is it not?



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> I explained this too. There is no screw up. Kaio stated inanimate objects can contribute, and 17 & 18 contributing to Genki Dama doesn't contradicts this.


Read above. Toriyama isn't perfect, you know.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Is there a scan that confirms this? You sure that you're not differentiating from the soul of a person from the energy that all inherent living things possess in DBZ?



Yep when the DBZ characters run OUT of Ki they are usually on the brink of death...for example Tienshinhan's attacks on Imperfect Cell Goku was very worried because he was using all of his Ki (spirit) on cell and when he used too much he just collapsed to the ground. He was dying from just using too much Ki....


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> No, Ki was DEFINED in Dragonball as SPIRIT!!!!! Goku senses the Spirit of an individual!!!!!! I have answered all of your questions now move on....


What makes you think repeating things 2093430 times would make you progress any further in a debate?

You have not answered all my questions... if Videl is able to fly, why can't I or Garfield do the same? And yes, Videl WAS a normal human, don't say otherwise because I have it in my sig. 

Goku can't sense all energies, he can sense ki.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> What makes you think repeating things 2093430 times would make you progress any further in a debate?
> 
> You have not answered all my questions... if Videl is able to fly, why can't I or Garfield do the same? And yes, Videl WAS a normal human, don't say otherwise because I have it in my sig.
> 
> Goku can't sense all energies, he can sense ki.



They All have a SPIRIT!!!! Goku can sense them.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> I can't be asked to repeat myself again.
> You ignore parts of my post that you can't answer.
> 
> I post- *Thanos had reacted and faught against speedsters, you post 'So thanos moves FTLS' its getting very boring*, i can't be bothered to explain something again that you don't understand after 3 or 4 times.



You think you're the only one who repeated your self? I didn't ignore parts of your post. I replied to all of your points.

I did answer to the argument about speedsters. And that was, there is _no evidence_ they were fighting FTL. So you can't base your claims upon that.

Actaully I'm also tired in replying. We're locked in an evil loop, and we're not getting out of it, because we probably are missing each others points


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> They All have a SPIRIT!!!! Goku can sense them.



You're being a complete troll and not contributing to the debate whatsoever.

Do you think Goku can sense ALL energies?


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 21, 2006)

Goku does NOT sense Energy if he could he would of sensed the ANDROIDS, he senses the SPIRIT!!!..have you read Naruto on Chakra (spirit) or Saint Seiya about their Cosmos (spirit)!!!! Goku senses the Spirit of an individual....


----------



## Jay (Dec 21, 2006)

Sorry about the late reply Ive had all sorts to do today.


> Space;6389057]
> Alright I'll play by your way.
> 1. Vegeta says so, and whatever Vegeta says I'll believe because I praise him like my next Buddha.
> 2. I already answered this, and you could provide no argument against it. Common symptoms of DBZ fanboy
> ...


No thats sarcasm, so basically you cant make proper answers to my proof, so why are you still arguing over this?.




> Biased: Omg dude Vegeta CAN'T destroy planet earth because I hate him he's a fucking retard look at that he's short his hair is spiky he's dumb he has no balls.


Okay just to make you happy Ill class you as a dbz hater then, because you said you dont really no anything about Thanos and that you are just on here to try and gun down Phenom, because you hate him, how sad...



> Me: Vegeta can't destroy the planet because no evidence was given that he could.


Ive allready stated my evidence to you three times now and you have no answers to any of them, what are you talking about!




> It's called comedic relief, they needed to have some of it displayed through DBZ instead of just killing, teleporting, and explosions.


This one was my favorite  . Right... so when you said to me a while back that Goku got really hurt by Chi chi with a frying pan, and I said to you yes its called comic relief, do you agree with me now, or are you just being biased again,  sorry being a dbz hater.




> That's a nice cover up for anyone to state, I'm realy not going to get into this argument. Seriously, let's just drop it.


  Oh you want to drop it now even though you started it, so Im a biased because I think Hercule can beat Hogan, even though Hogan was my idle as a child and Hecule is the shitest character in Dbz which I dont like whatsoever might I add.
But Im biased because I know a cartoon characters can take and give so much pain compared to people in the real world.
Now you tell me, who do honestly think would win Space and forget your grudge towards Phenom and Dbz, and probrably me aswell, and for once answer truthfully.




> Oh, whatever do you mean? I'm  just posting scans of Kid Buu fighting Goku and Vegeta. You're full of hostility.


To be honest If you think I am being hostile you must be having a laugh, Im talking to you exactly the way your talking to me, if anything your being slightly worse, and yes were they plot holes to you by any chance :amazed  you have clearly won this argument  




> Ok, show me one post where I denied Roshi destroyed the moon. It's in plain site that he destroyed the moon, but is it in plain site that Vegeta destroyed Earth? No. I've posted scans and have reasoned with you DBZ fans(yes I'm including you) for long enough and all you can do is flame me like the others.


Sorry I missed a word out, why Roshi could destroy the moon but in your *opinion* (because thats all it is) that Vegeta cant destroy the earth, but the only thing you say is yes but he didn't, *Sigh* THATS BECAUSE GOKU BLOCKED IT WITH A 4X KIAOKEN KAMEHAMEHA!. Jesus... what is so hard for you to work this out, Roshi could destroy the moon with a normal Kamehameha blast do the god damn math!


> Want to know what's really pathetic? Goku's role in this fight because all he's doing is being a cheerleader and giving away chocolate cupcakes while STUCK ON EARTH.


.
The funny thing is Im not taking sides in this debate I honestly dont know who would win and never said I did, but by this statement clearly you are, even though you said you dont really no anything about Thanos, now whos being biased, oh sorry just Dbz hating because like you said your only on here to argue with Phenom.
Get a life!


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

> Yep when the DBZ characters run OUT of Ki they are usually on the brink of death...for example Tienshinhan's attacks on Imperfect Cell Goku was very worried because he was using all of his Ki (spirit) on cell and when he used too much he just collapsed to the ground. He was dying from just using too much Ki....



. . . That's it?


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 21, 2006)

There are more examples..it was just to show you that when they use all of their spirit up in the form of blasts they can die.......


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> Are you saying there are no mistakes made in the DB manga?
> Are you saying the Dragonballs also contribute to the Genki Dama? Not true.
> 
> Why can't it be a screwup? It's a combination of all ki energies. We've never seen any inanimate object contribute to the Genki Dama, and if inanimate objects like the Dragonballs could contribute to the Genki dama, they would have no power whatsoever.



A planet is a non-inanimate object now? Atmosphere is a non-inanimate object now? The GD _can_ get energy from inanimate objects, it is stated too. That's why it can get energy from the androids, so therefor it's _not_ a screwup, since it doesn't lead to an inconsistency?
You say it's a screwup, then pointout the inconsistency.



> What you're basically saying here is that Goku can sense _all_ energies? Non-sense. He can only sense someone's ki, which only exists in the DBU.
> 
> Thanos doesn't have ki. Wanna ask Jim Starlin if he has ki or not?
> If the creator doesn't include it as an energy source or life force, the character does not have it.



I said he can sense the energy that a living creature has. Only cyborgs & robots could go undetetected. Thanos is a living creature. Thanos is not a cyborg. Thanos is not a robot. Thanos is a living creature. 
I didn't use the term ki. I explained that the energy living creatures has, is _called_ ki in DB. It is the energy that your body posses. It is the energy you need to move.



> That's impossible because you're not even giving me an answer. You said that flying was a _belief made into a fact in the DBU_. The same thing with Ki, is it not?



Flying by the use of you own energy is a belief. The energy that exists inside you isn't a belief. Everyone has energy. Energy is needed to move. You move your muscles by using energy.



> Read above. Toriyama isn't perfect, you know.



I'm not saying that there are no inconsistencies in DB, only that the situation you're picking up, is not a plothole. 
It _is_ stated that inanimate objects can contribute to the Genki Dama. So the androids who contributed to the Genki Dama isn't a plothole. It _is_ explained.



........ ......
............


.... ...


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

You do kno that no one can 'regenerate a soul', right?

If ki can be exhausted and be built up again, it would indicate energy generated. Not a soul. Souls can't be regenerated.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> (...)



hehe dude, all of that you replied to, has been replied to and debated. You should just leave it, as it would just start from scratch again.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> You do kno that no one can 'regenerate a soul', right?
> 
> If ki can be exhausted and be built up again, it would indicate energy generated. Not a soul. Souls can't be regenerated.



Well, what do think about my explaination of it?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

> Well, what do think about my explaination of it?



You mean lifeforce, or energy attributed to life?


----------



## Jay (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> hehe dude, all of that you replied to, has been replied to and debated. You should just leave it, as it would just start from scratch again.


 Sorry mate Im abit late I know, it just pissed me off the way he replied to me with basically just pure flame and no proof, so I was getting my own back.
By the way has he admited to it then? because I really cant be assed reading 6 pages back   or is he still just arguing for the sake of arguing as usual  .


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> You do kno that no one can 'regenerate a soul', right?
> 
> If ki can be exhausted and be built up again, it would indicate energy generated. Not a soul. Souls can't be regenerated.



Goku does NOT sense Energy if he could he would of sensed the ANDROIDS, he senses the SPIRIT!!!..have you read Naruto on Chakra (spirit) or Saint Seiya about their Cosmos (spirit)!!!! Goku senses the Spirit of an individual....The DBZ characters transform their spirit into energy! That is why if they use it ALL up they DIE.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> You mean lifeforce, or *energy attributed to life*?



That one.



Jaydaime said:


> Sorry mate Im abit late I know, it just pissed me off the way he replied to me with basically just pure flame and no proof, so I was getting my own back.
> By the way has he admited to it then? because I really cant be assed reading 6 pages back   or is he still just arguing for the sake of arguing as usual  .



Don't know if he ever agreed with me


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

> Goku does NOT sense Energy if he could he would of sensed the ANDROIDS, he senses the SPIRIT!!!



Does it ever occur to you that the energies of that of the average Z-Warrior and that of the Androids differ?



> ..have you read Naruto on Chakra (spirit) or Saint Seiya about their Cosmos (spirit)!!!!



Yes, I read Naruto.



> Goku senses the Spirit of an individual....The DBZ characters transform their spirit into energy! That is why if they use it ALL up they DIE.



Ki being energy attributed to life is far more plausible and believable, as oppose to using _portions_ of one's soul as offensive attacks, exhausting it, and then _regenerating_ it.



> That one.



It's far more believeable.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> It's far more believeable.



And this theory doesn't lead to contradictions like the other one.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Does it ever occur to you that the energies of that of the average Z-Warrior and that of the Androids differ?Yes, I read Naruto.Ki being energy attributed to life is far more plausible and believable, as oppose to using _portions_ of one's soul as offensive attacks, exhausting it, and then _regenerating_ it.It's far more believeable.



It does NOT matter what you think is more believable or NOT. I go off the manga and ki was stated to be Spirit, Soul!!!! why do you think Goku can tell if someone is evil or good or has the intent to kill??!! and the Androids were stated to have NO ki! that is why they could NOT be sensed.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

> And this theory doesn't lead to contradictions like the other one.



Other one?



> It does NOT matter what you think is more believable or NOT. I go off the manga and ki was stated to be Spirit, Soul!!!!



Yes, but a scan of a page or panel that directly states that ki is one's soul is far more concrete.



> and the Androids were stated to have NO ki!



Yet 17 and 18 contributed to the Genki Dama, and were resurrected, whereas Android 16 remains 'deceased' (for an android).


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Other one?



Never mind, I must've misunderstood you. I thought you were talking about two different possible explainations.



> Yet 17 and 18 contributed to the Genki Dama, and were resurrected, whereas Android 16 remains 'deceased' (for an android).



You didn't have the translation of what Kaio-sama exactly says, did you?

Phenomenol, you had the manga in the japanese verion. What does Kaio-sama say here in the top right corner, about the Genki Dama?


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Sorry about the late reply Ive had all sorts to do today.
> 
> No thats sarcasm, so basically you cant make proper answers to my proof, so why are you still arguing over this?.


You were giving me a lecture that Roshi destroyed the moon and Goku's Kaio Ken 4 Kamehameha deflected Vegeta's Galick Gun. I said yeah I already knew that, its' not sarcasm.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Okay just to make you happy Ill class you as a dbz hater then, because you said you dont really no anything about Thanos and that you are just on here to try and gun down Phenom, because you hate him, how sad...


Memory problems, I said my knowledge of Thanos is limited. I knew a little about him before I even entered this debate. When I saw Phenomenol and the way he would be praising Goku unrealistically, I came in. Notice how I didn't start debating until like 10 pages after.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Ive allready stated my evidence to you three times now and you have no answers to any of them, what are you talking about!


You classify Vegeta stating he could destroy Earth evidence? Obviously you were wrong, and we already stated all the inconsistencies happening the DB manga for the past couple pages.
It was not evidence, and since you agree it's opinionated, we can just drop the point and say it's inconclusive. Therefore being inconclusive, the other attacks aren't planet destroying and certainly Goku's physical attacks aren't planet destroying either.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> This one was my favorite  . Right... so when you said to me a while back that Goku got really hurt by Chi chi with a frying pan, and I said to you yes its called comic relief, do you agree with me now, or are you just being biased again,  sorry being a dbz hater.


No, I don't hate DBZ again with your opinions. ChiChi hitting Goku with a pan can be open for interpretation- being comedic relief and actually hurting him. Kid Buu blasting Hercule and him still being alive is not physically possible in the DBU, therefore it is comedic relief.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Oh you want to drop it now even though you started it, so Im a biased because I think Hercule can beat Hogan, even though Hogan was my idle as a child and Hecule is the shitest character in Dbz which I dont like whatsoever might I add.


You know what, you're like the Avatar who was out cold for 100 years, and then just finally came back. I didn't just start it, I've been debating against it with Phenomenol and MSGohan for the past several pages. Go read, and then post back here.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> But Im biased because I know a cartoon characters can take and give so much pain compared to people in the real world.
> Now you tell me, who do honestly think would win Space and forget your grudge towards Phenom and Dbz, and probrably me aswell, and for once answer truthfully.


I have no grudge towards DBZ, I guess that's your interpretation of me because I'm bashing your best friend Phenomenol.
Yes, cartoon characters can take more than real world people, but in the case of Hulk Hogan vs Hercule, comedic relief is not a factor.
Hulk would destroy him, it's obvious. I'm not going to get into that debate, it's totally irrelevant to this topic right now. I know I started that, but I'm just dropping it here.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> To be honest If you think I am being hostile you must be having a laugh, *Im talking to you exactly the way your talking to me*, if anything your being slightly worse, and yes were they plot holes to you by any chance :amazed  you have clearly won this argument


LoL, how long have you been copying the way people speak online? Must be such an interesting life hobby.
Toriyama has made plenty of plot holes for us to notice, and he's even admitted it.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Sorry I missed a word out, why Roshi could destroy the moon but in your *opinion* (because thats all it is) that Vegeta cant destroy the earth, but the only thing you say is yes but he didn't, *Sigh* THATS BECAUSE GOKU BLOCKED IT WITH A 4X KIAOKEN KAMEHAMEHA!. Jesus... what is so hard for you to work this out, Roshi could destroy the moon with a normal Kamehameha blast do the god damn math!


Omg, we've been through this already, there was no actual proof that Vegeta's attack on Earth was planet destroying. And if you use Roshi's feat on the moon as evidence(which is basically  your only one), I'll argue the many inconsistent power levels distributed throughout the entire manga and I've already posted scans.
Plus, Toriyama himself said the power level system was inaccurate which was why he abandoned it..



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> .
> The funny thing is Im not taking sides in this debate I honestly dont know who would win and never said I did, but by this statement clearly you are, even though you said you dont really no anything about Thanos, now whos being biased, oh sorry just Dbz hating because like you said your only on here to argue with Phenom.
> Get a life!


I'm arguing with Phenomenol because I disagree with him, his most overused phrase is "He has SPIRIT!!!! Goku SENSES THE SPIRIT OF AN INDIVIDUAL!!
despite the evidence we've presented to him.
Since you're obviously on his side makes you a DBZfan(not making a negative comment).
Unless you can provide arguments to what's been going on the last few pages, you should put a halt in creating new arguments because they're most likely stated a while back.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Yes, but a scan of a page or panel that directly states that ki is one's soul is far more concrete.Quote: and the Androids were stated to have NO ki!  Yet 17 and 18 contributed to the Genki Dama, and were resurrected, whereas Android 16 remains 'deceased' (for an android).



I can NOT put up a scan now but in the training with Mr. popo and Goku Mr. Popo EMPTIES his "Spirit" and then Goku goes on too say that I can "NOT sense you at all!!!" Meaning he can NOT sense his soul because he has lowered it.... I will give other examples later.



> Phenomenol, you had the manga in the japanese verion. What does Kaio-sama say here in the top right corner, about the Genki Dama?



It says... "how it gathers energy from everything", and it is basically saying what was stated in that panel of translations.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> You classify Vegeta stating he could destroy Earth evidence? Obviously you were wrong, and we already stated all the inconsistencies happening the DB manga for the past couple pages.
> It was not evidence, and since you agree it's opinionated, we can just drop the point and say it's inconclusive. Therefore being inconclusive, the other attacks aren't planet destroying and certainly Goku's physical attacks aren't planet destroying either.
> 
> Omg, we've been through this already, there was no actual proof that Vegeta's attack on Earth was planet destroying. And if you use Roshi's feat on the moon as evidence(which is basically  your only one), I'll argue the many inconsistent power levels distributed throughout the entire manga and I've already posted scans.
> Plus, Toriyama himself said the power level system was inaccurate which was why he abandoned it..



I thought we reached an agreement on this.  
Evidence points to that Vegeta's attack could shatter the planet. Since Goku is able to sense it. He wouldn't have tried to counter it, if it wasn't planet shattering. He even risked his life by using Kaio-ken x4. For what, to save the mountains in the desert?
Just like Goku sensed that the attack Buu fired at earth would destroy it, it's not just a bluff.
So less information point to the statement, that Vegeta was bluffing.


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> A planet is a non-inanimate object now? Atmosphere is a non-inanimate object now? The GD _can_ get energy from inanimate objects, it is stated too. That's why it can get energy from the androids, so therefor it's _not_ a screwup, since it doesn't lead to an inconsistency?
> You say it's a screwup, then pointout the inconsistency.


When did I ever say a planet was an inanimate object(btw, by saying it's a non-inanimate object you're making it an animate object[2 negatives??])
Didn't you read Vynjira's post??? That was Toriyama's mistake for putting that in Genki Dama's description! The Genki Dama is composed of ki, what else is it composed of(that would be an inconsistency).

Btw, since 17 had unlimited energy he would've given an indescribable amount to the Genki Dama.
No, inanimate objects can't contribute to the Genki Dama or else the Dragonballs would have no power and the Genki Dama wouldn't be a ki based attack. It was Toriyama's mistake, face it.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> I said he can sense the energy that a living creature has. Only cyborgs & robots could go undetetected. Thanos is a living creature. Thanos is not a cyborg. Thanos is not a robot. Thanos is a living creature.
> I didn't use the term ki. I explained that the energy living creatures has, is _called_ ki in DB. It is the energy that your body posses. It is the energy you need to move.


Just to tell you(for the 10,000th time) we're not all using the same energy. You're saying Thanos and Goku have the same kind of energy but the one in DBU is called ki? That's nonsense and there's no proof whatsoever.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Flying by the use of you own energy is a belief. The energy that exists inside you isn't a belief. Everyone has energy. Energy is needed to move. You move your muscles by using energy.


So basically, you're picking and choosing and ignoring the rest.
You and Phenomenol state that we have all ki. If Videl can fly, we should be able to as well. There's an inconsistency RIGHT THERE and you're blindly passing it.
We use energy, but we don't use ki. Ki is life force/energy in the DBU. *IN THE DBU.*




			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> I'm not saying that there are no inconsistencies in DB, only that the situation you're picking up, is not a plothole.
> It _is_ stated that inanimate objects can contribute to the Genki Dama. So the androids who contributed to the Genki Dama isn't a plothole. It _is_ explained.


*sigh* read above...
MSGohan, you're a DBZfan right?


----------



## Jay (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> You were giving me a lecture that Roshi destroyed the moon and Goku's Kaio Ken 4 Kamehameha deflected Vegeta's Galick Gun. I said yeah I already knew that, its' not sarcasm.
> 
> 
> Memory problems, I said my knowledge of Thanos is limited. I knew a little about him before I even entered this debate. When I saw Phenomenol and the way he would be praising Goku unrealistically, I came in. Notice how I didn't start debating until like 10 pages after.
> ...


*Your a Dbz fan!* man... is that your new catch phrase or something because you seem to say it on every post, anybody who has watched the entire series of Dbz is a dbz fan or they wouldn't have been sad enough to watch all of it, give it a rest will you.
Anyway Im not gonna constantly reply to all this because I can see this is going to be a constant cycle of you not admiting when your wrong.
And what really annoyed me before was when MsGohan said to you earlier we just have to agree to disagree because you clearly wasn't going to stop arguing about it even though its the authors canon vs your opinion, and you still denied MsGohan of a truce which was extreamly generous of him considering you were competely wrong, so whatever bit of respect I had for you is now gone and I just see you as a mega argumentative biased Dbz hater, just like in your opinion Im a Dbz tard, sorry your new phrase dbz fan.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> When did I ever say a planet was an inanimate object(btw, by saying it's a non-inanimate object you're making it an animate object[2 negatives??])
> Didn't you read Vynjira's post??? _That was Toriyama's mistake_ for putting that in Genki Dama's description! The Genki Dama is composed of ki, what else is it composed of(that would be an inconsistency).
> 
> Btw, since 17 had unlimited energy he would've given an indescribable amount to the Genki Dama.
> No, inanimate objects can't contribute to the Genki Dama or else the Dragonballs would have no power and the Genki Dama wouldn't be a ki based attack. It was Toriyama's mistake, face it.



Why was it a mistake? You seriously didn't understand what I meant by non-inanimate? The way I said it, was asking that is a planet an animate object? Is the atmosphere an animate "object"? No.

Now what has the DB's anything to do with this? Is that was you consider as an inconsistency?
The androids could contribute to the GB because their energy is similar. When they shoot blast it's like the other characters. However their energy can't be sensed.
And because their energy doesn't run out, it obviously doesn't imply they can just make a more powerful blast. Hence contributing more power. Even though this looks like a plothole.



> Just to tell you(for the 10,000th time) we're not all using the same energy. You're saying Thanos and Goku have the same kind of energy but the one in DBU is called ki? That's nonsense and there's no proof whatsoever.



Don't you read my replies, or do you just rush them through? I repeated myself too many times now... Ok I will make it as simple as I can to you;
I'm saying that Goku can sense the energy that living creatures do posses. 
You're claiming that different creatures have different form of energy. Proof?

That is Thanos has a different form of energy than living creatures, and hence would be able to go undetected by Goku.



> So basically, you're picking and choosing and ignoring the rest.
> You and Phenomenol state that we have all ki. If Videl can fly, we should be able to as well. There's an inconsistency RIGHT THERE and you're blindly passing it.
> We use energy, but we don't use ki. Ki is life force/energy in the DBU. *IN THE DBU.*
> 
> ...



Yes, I'm a fan.


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

Before I read this post, I prophesize that it will contain bashing, lies, and denial all combined in one big paragraph.



Jaydaime said:


> *Your a Dbz fan!* *man... is that your new catch phrase or something because you seem to say it on every post*, anybody who has watched the entire series of Dbz is a dbz fan or they wouldn't have been sad enough to watch all of it, give it a rest will you.


I said it to you the second time I believe...
This is completely irrelevant to the subject, but out of kindness I'll reply to you. Yeah, I watched the series of DBZ but that means I'm a fan of it forever? Just because you're a fan of the series doesn't mean you should say that I still am.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Anyway Im not gonna constantly reply to all this because I can see this is going to be a constant cycle of you not admiting when your wrong.


Why would I admit that I'm wrong right after I post facts right in front of your nose? I can't admit I'm wrong if I'm not countered with more evidence and facts. MSGohan proved to me that Goku sensing a ki signal wasn't the only way for him to use IT, and I gladly agreed with him.

You, on the other hand, just agree with your best friends Phenomenol and Jplaya all the time while mysteriously leaving the thread(leaving questions given to you unanswered), and then come back a day or two later presenting arguments that have already been done without even reading.




			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> And what really annoyed me before was when MsGohan said to you earlier we just have to agree to disagree because you clearly wasn't going to stop arguing about it even though its the authors canon vs your opinion,


I will never argue against an author's canon. However, if there is an inconsistency that ties in with a canon statement, it must be questioned. You're not even considering inconsistencies and listen to whatever Kaio sama and Vegeta to be true.
"I will kill you- along with the rest of the Earth!" and you automatically believe Vegeta will do so, despite being NO evidence(other than his claim)  



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> and you still denied MsGohan of a truce which was extreamly generous of him considering you were competely wrong,


Alright, I would treat this sentence with more respect if it was Phenomenol, but considering you weren't even in this thread for 10 pages without reading says alot. It's like some randomn guy on the street today screaming "OMG THE TERRORISTS ATTACKED THE WORLD TRADE CENTER!" when it happended 5 years ago.




			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> so whatever bit of respect I had for you is now gone and I just see you as a mega argumentative biased Dbz hater, just like in your opinion Im a Dbz tard, sorry your new phrase dbz fan.


You don't have to respect me, I'm in here because I want to debate. There can always be some hate going around, but hey, it's the internet. We're never going to meet anyways so it doesn't matter.
Just because I refute Phenomenol's, MSGohan's, and your arguments doesn't make me a DBZhater. What I hate is how you present your arguments.


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Why was it a mistake? You seriously didn't understand what I meant by non-inanimate? The way I said it, was asking that is a planet an animate object? Is the atmosphere an animate "object"? No.


*sigh* ok here it is. Anywhere to where Goku reaches out to, if any life form has ki, they can contribute to the Gennki Dama. If not, too bad you don't get to join in the Genki Dama party.
What would you say Genki Dama is made up of then?



			
				Msgohan said:
			
		

> Now what has the DB's anything to do with this? Is that was you consider as an inconsistency?


Didn't I just state this in my last post? You said inanimate objects could contribute to the Genki Dama. How about the Dragonballs?



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> The androids could contribute to the GB because *their energy is similar*. When they shoot blast it's like the other characters. However their energy can't be sensed.


The Androids have nearly the exact same attacks, and look surprisingly ki based, and all you have to say is "their energy is similar" without ANY evidence?
THAT'S what I'm talking about when you don't give evidence. I'm so happy for you if it's your opinion.... but there's no evidence to support it.  



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> And because their energy doesn't run out, it obviously doesn't imply they can just make a more powerful blast. Hence contributing more power. Even though this looks like a plothole.


I'm glad you agree that this is a plothole.



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> Don't you read my replies, or do you just rush them through? I repeated myself too many times now... Ok I will make it as simple as I can to you;
> I'm saying that Goku can sense the energy that living creatures do posses.
> You're claiming that different creatures have different form of energy. Proof?


Dude... it's like you're talking to a brick wall but I can hear everything you're saying.
*What energies can Goku sense? Ki. Can  he sense anything else? No. What shows are the concept of ki used in? Let's see DBZ, maybe Avatar, and a few others.*
See? It's not hard to understand AT ALL. Marvel does not use the ki concept, they base their knowledge on actual physics. Ki is a belief, not a law.



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> Yes, I'm a fan.


And you say I rush through your questions? I asked you a whole paragraph of questions and that's ALL you have to say?


----------



## Jay (Dec 21, 2006)

OMG I dont believe Im replying to *you *again


> Space said:
> 
> 
> > Before I read this post, I prophesize that it will contain bashing, *lies*, and denial all combined in one big paragraph.
> ...


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> *sigh* ok here it is. Anywhere to where Goku reaches out to, if any life form has ki, they can contribute to the Gennki Dama. If not, too bad you don't get to join in the Genki Dama party.
> What would you say Genki Dama is made up of then?
> 
> Didn't I just state this in my last post? You said inanimate objects could contribute to the Genki Dama. How about the Dragonballs?



Actaully you are now opposing what Kaio-sama said in the manga. It clearly stated that inanimate object can contribute. What is your argument against this? Dragon Ball's doesn't contribute to the Genki Dama? They are inanimate objects why wouldn't they contribute to the GB. Just like the atmosphere, the oceans and ect contributes to the GB.



> The Androids have nearly the exact same attacks, and look surprisingly ki based, and all you have to say is "their energy is similar" without ANY evidence?
> THAT'S what I'm talking about when you don't give evidence. I'm so happy for you if it's your opinion.... but there's no evidence to support it.



So what are the androids energy blasts? Electromagnetic gamma radiation?
I'm not saying it's the same as ki, only similar since they could contribute to the Genki Dama.



> Dude... it's like you're talking to a brick wall but I can hear everything you're saying.
> *What energies can Goku sense? Ki. Can  he sense anything else? No. What shows are the concept of ki used in? Let's see DBZ, maybe Avatar, and a few others.*
> See? It's not hard to understand AT ALL. Marvel does not use the ki concept, they base their knowledge on actual physics. Ki is a belief, not a law.



What part of

"I'm saying that Goku can sense the energy that living creatures do posses.
You're claiming that different creatures have different form of energy. Proof?"

is unclear? Please pinpoint so I can try to explain in further details. I'm not using the term KI.



> And you say I rush through your questions? I asked you a whole paragraph of questions and that's ALL you have to say?





> If Videl can fly, we should be able to as well. There's an inconsistency RIGHT THERE and you're blindly passing it.
> We use energy, but we don't use ki. Ki is life force/energy in the DBU. IN THE DBU.



I'm not using the term KI, I use the term "energy that living creatures posseses". Videl can fly by propulsing energy (I'm still not using the term KI). Ofcourse humans have energy, but it's not possible for us to propulse the energy the way they do it in DBZ. That's why we can't fly.
How does characters fly in Marvel/DC? By magic? They use energy.


----------



## Hamaru (Dec 21, 2006)

What does this DBZ talk have to do with Thanos?


----------



## Jay (Dec 21, 2006)

Hamaru said:


> What does this DBZ talk have to do with Thanos?


As usual just like most dbz threads with dbz involved, next we will be talking about how goku can or cant go the speed of light


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Hamaru said:


> What does this DBZ talk have to do with Thanos?



Ask Space.
It all started when someone said that Thanos would just teleport Goku away, and someone else said, "well Goku would just teleport back by tracking Thanos' energy". Then this whole meaningless discussion started.


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Actaully you are now opposing what Kaio-sama said in the manga. It clearly stated that inanimate object can contribute. What is your argument against this? Dragon Ball's doesn't contribute to the Genki Dama? They are inanimate objects why wouldn't they contribute to the GB. Just like the atmosphere, the oceans and ect contributes to the GB.


You still didn't respond when I said to you that Toriyama made a MISTAKE!! The logic doesn't fit in how the explanation is presented.
If all inanimate objects could contribute, why didn't the Dragonballs become useless then?



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> *So what are the androids energy blasts? Electromagnetic gamma radiation?*I'm not saying it's the same as ki, only similar since they could contribute to the Genki Dama.p


I asked you that question, why are you trying to shift the burden of proof?
What are the Androids blasts? Why could they contribute to the Genki Dama? These questions relate to each other, and if the Androids blasts are not ki, then it is a plot hole.




			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> What part of
> 
> "I'm saying that Goku can sense the energy that living creatures do posses.
> You're claiming that different creatures have different form of energy. Proof?"
> ...


You're not, but the DBU and Toriyama are. Ki is the life force/energy based on(in our world) Chinese philosophy where every life form has it, and have special energies within them.
It's life force/energy in the DBU EXCLUSIVELY.




			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> I'm not using the term KI, I use the term "energy that living creatures posseses". Videl can fly by propulsing energy (I'm still not using the term KI). Ofcourse humans have energy, but it's not possible for us to propulse the energy the way they do it in DBZ. That's why we can't fly.
> How does characters fly in Marvel/DC? By magic? They use energy.



What the? There was no evidence whatsoever that stated what you're saying, you are making it up as you go....
Videl doesn't use ki to fly, so what does she use? She just flies magically like Peter Pan?


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

I'm not going to respond to the small irrelevant issues because it's going to get personal.

Btw, if you watch an entire series it doesn't mean you're a fan for that series forever, in case you didn't know,



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Ive allready given you facts and enough evidence, this is why your annoying me because you constantly keep saying that to me, and you havent posted any facts or evidence whatsoever, when I have and you haven't


You're talking to a brick wall. Go back and read a few pages.




			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> Sorry but I have to go to work plus I have a 14 month old son to look after Im quite a busy man, even though I like it here, sorry that I cant be on here all the time.
> And for the reconing I never leave questions unanswered, yes maybe late, like today I allready apoligised for that, plus Ive had a very busy day, but at least I answered.
> And as for you comparing me with Phenom and Jplaya as my best mates even though they both seem to be sound guys Ive never even spoke to Phenom and rarely have I spoke with Jplaya I haven't even seen him around in ages.


Maybe you don't leave questions unanswered *that much* , but it's clear to me that you haven't read the past pages before just posting on the last page when you came back.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> But you are arguing with the authors canon, the author writes, tells, and controll's all of Vegetas actions, so if *you* dont no about what Vegeta can do surely the author does, why are we still debating this?


Ok, fine we'll go your way. The author writes what Vegeta says. Vegeta said that Goku wouldn't be able to block his Galick Gun. But what do you know?? Goku blocked it!

I guess Toriyama is a big fat liar and we should raid his house.
It's FICTION. Authors can make characters say whatever they want, it doesn't mean whatever they say is true.

Oh, and actually this whole DBZ nonsense started when Phenomenol implied that Goku's physical attacks could destroy a planet. I argued against him that he couldn't, then MSGohan and Jaydaime came to join in the party and defend their best friend Phenomenol.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> You still didn't respond when I said to you that Toriyama made a MISTAKE!! The logic doesn't fit in how the explanation is presented.
> If all inanimate objects could contribute, *why didn't the Dragonballs become useless then*?



Because they don't give up all their energy to the Genki Dama.

What is a mistake, please represent the mistake and explain why, and where it creates an inconsistency.



> I asked you that question, why are you trying to shift the burden of proof?
> What are the Androids blasts? Why could they contribute to the Genki Dama? These questions relate to each other, and if the Androids blasts are not ki, then it is a plot hole.



Actaully you started out claiming that their energy is different, why do you think it is a whole different from what the other characters uses? Proof? It's different in that sense that their energy can't be detected. And that's due to the fact that they are androids.
And KI is just the energy that living creatures posses in DB as explained by Gohan in the scan I provided earlier.



> You're not, but the DBU and Toriyama are. Ki is the life force/energy based on(in our world) Chinese philosophy where every life form has it, and have special energies within them.
> It's life force/energy in the DBU EXCLUSIVELY.



KI is just the energy that living creatures posses in DB as explained by Gohan in the scan I provided earlier.



> What the? There was no evidence whatsoever that stated what you're saying, you are making it up as you go....
> Videl doesn't use ki to fly, so what does she use? She just flies magically like Peter Pan?



Ki is just energy. They use energy to fly, and will something float by the use of energy? This is simple physics. You use propulsion to take of. In DBZ they use their energy as the propulsion. Videl doesn't just fly magically like Peter Pan.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> Ok, fine we'll go your way. The author writes what Vegeta says. Vegeta said that Goku wouldn't be able to block his Galick Gun. But what do you know?? Goku blocked it!
> 
> I guess Toriyama is a big fat liar and we should raid his house.
> It's FICTION. Authors can make characters say whatever they want, it doesn't mean whatever they say is true.



Didn't we discus this already? I repeat;

Evidence points to that Vegeta's attack could shatter the planet. Since Goku is able to sense it. He wouldn't have tried to counter it, if it wasn't planet shattering. He even risked his life by using Kaio-ken x4. For what, to save the mountains in the desert?
Just like Goku sensed that the attack Buu fired at earth would destroy it, it's not just a bluff.
So less information point to the statement, that Vegeta was bluffing.

And that analogy isn't quit correct. Vegeta know his own power, and he knew that his blast would be powerful enough to destroy the planet, just like Muten Roshi knew his blast would destroy the moon. Otherwise how would Roshi be sure that he needed that power to destroy the moon.  However, Vegeta didn't know how powerful Goku really were, and he could never have imagined Goku going Kaio-ken x4.



> Oh, and actually this whole DBZ nonsense started when Phenomenol implied that Goku's physical attacks could destroy a planet. I argued against him that he couldn't, *then MSGohan and Jaydaime came to join in the party and defend their best friend Phenomenol.*



I didn't expect you to sink that low...
This a debate, the way you phrase that, is like your arguments are the absolut truth, while we are the wrong once and need to be corrected.


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Because they don't give up all their energy to the Genki Dama.


So the Dragonballs give energy to Goku, and the dragon gives energy to Goku to? Do you know how illogical that sounds?



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> What is a mistake, please represent the mistake and explain why, and where it creates an inconsistency.





			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> You say it's a screwup, then pointout the inconsistency





			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Why shouldn't it be able to do so?





			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> Why was it a mistake


That's all about the patience I had to dig up from you. Did Phenomenol brainwash you with his tape recording powers?



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> Actaully you started out claiming that their energy is different, why do you think it is a whole different from what the other characters uses? Proof? It's different in that sense that their energy can't be detected. And that's due to the fact that they are androids.


Yet they are half human, and could contribute to the Genki Dama. The Genki Dama is a giant mass that is a combination collection of every life form's KI. 



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> And KI is just the energy that living creatures posses *in DB *as explained by Gohan in the scan I provided earlier.



THANK YOU, IN DB. It does not apply to Marvel, which is OUTSIDE of DB, in case you haven't noticed by now, and the only way Goku can sense an individual is by their KI SIGNAL, which Thanos DOES NOT have. Get it?



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> Ki is just energy. They use energy to fly, and will something float by the use of energy? This is simple physics. You use propulsion to take of. In DBZ they use their energy as the propulsion. Videl doesn't just fly magically like Peter Pan.


So you're saying Videl doesn't use her ki to fly? Answer yes or no please.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> I can NOT put up a scan now but in the training with Mr. popo and Goku Mr. Popo EMPTIES his "Spirit" and then Goku goes on too say that I can "NOT sense you at all!!!" Meaning he can NOT sense his soul because he has lowered it.... I will give other examples later.



I'll hold you to a scan later. . . as before.



> It says... "how it gathers energy from everything", and it is basically saying what was stated in that panel of translations.



Everything?

Then why the concern of the Genki Dama utilizing Namek's energy since there was barely any life left?


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Is it only me, or is this just getting way off topic?


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Didn't we discus this already? I repeat;
> 
> Evidence points to that Vegeta's attack could shatter the planet. Since Goku is able to sense it. He wouldn't have tried to counter it, if it wasn't planet shattering. He even risked his life by using Kaio-ken x4. For what, to save the mountains in the desert?
> Just like Goku sensed that the attack Buu fired at earth would destroy it, it's not just a bluff.
> So less information point to the statement, that Vegeta was bluffing.


Ok, first of all, how does Goku know how much energy it takes to destroy planet Earth? He doesn't. He believed Vegeta's death threat, and did NOT want to take any chances, so he had no choice but to counter his Galick Gun.

You still think that what Vegeta SAID was true when he said he could blow up Earth? Yes or no? Because if you do, Vegeta SAID that Goku wouldn't be able to block his Galick Gun and Goku did. Characters in fictional stories don't say things 100% correctly.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> And that analogy isn't quit correct. Vegeta know his own power, and he knew that his blast would be powerful enough to destroy the planet, just like Muten Roshi knew his blast would destroy the moon. Otherwise how would Roshi be sure that he needed that power to destroy the moon.  However, Vegeta didn't know how powerful Goku really were, and he could never have imagined Goku going Kaio-ken x4.


Actually, no Vegeta did not know his own power could shatter the planet at the time because he was still relying on the scouters and could not sense power levels.
When Freeza said that one attack of his would immediately destroy the planet Namek, did it? No, he still let Namek alive.

How do you know that Roshi *knew* that Kamehameha would blow up the moon? There was no evidence that he knew. He probably went full power and did a super kamehameha at the moon hoping for the best.





			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> I didn't expect you to sink that low...
> This a debate, the way you phrase that, is like your arguments are the absolut truth, while we are the wrong once and need to be corrected.


Your evidence for your arguments are because the characters say so. That isn't enough. If you prove me wrong, I'll agree with you(aka the Goku's IT method argument)...


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

Indeed.

There's only one thing left to do.

We must call upon the power of Goober.


----------



## Orion (Dec 21, 2006)

this thread needs to be closed.....no one has yet to come up with exactly how goku and supes even stand a chance of winning 1/10 encounters let alone a majority.you cant speedblitz him,they arent stronger then him,hes has insane h2h skills,power cosmic,shields that can tank hits from galactus ect,teleporter,he is just way to versatile and durable.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> So the Dragonballs give energy to Goku, and the dragon gives energy to Goku to? Do you know how illogical that sounds?



The Dragon Ball's are inanimate objects, therefor they can also give energy. Inanimate objects can give energy. So no that doesn't sound ridiculous. Basically is seems that all matter can give energy. Because "inanimate-objects" is anything.
Again it is stated by Kaio-sama that inanimate objects can give energy. So saying that it's illogical that DB's can give energy, it's just like saying that the oceans (inanimate) can give energy.



> Yet they are half human, and could contribute to the Genki Dama. The Genki Dama is a giant mass that is a combination collection of every life form's KI.



Yes, because they are cyborgs. And no, the Genki Dama contains energy from inanimate objects too.



> THANK YOU, IN DB. It does not apply to Marvel, which is OUTSIDE of DB, in case you haven't noticed by now, and the only way Goku can sense an individual is by their KI SIGNAL, which Thanos DOES NOT have. Get it?



This just proves that you haven't payed attention to all the explaination I gave earlier about this "ki"... You use my line in a way which is obviously not my intention of the explaination, because I've been arguing that it's just the energy living creatures posseses. I didn't meant to say ONLY in DB.
KI is the energy that every living creatures posses. <- That's what I meant to say, I accidently put "in DB" in the line, and you used it against me, even though I've been trying to make it general in the last many replies...
KI is kist the energy that every living creatures posses. They use the word "KI" for it in DB. It's just the energy that creatures have inorder to _live_. Living organisms need energy.
And that energy that creatures have is what they _call_ "KI". It's just the energy that that living creatures need to live. Like energy to move your muscles and ect.



> So you're saying Videl doesn't use her ki to fly? Answer yes or no please.



No. KI is just the energy that living creatures posses. Videl uses _that energy_ (which they in DBZ call "KI") to fly.


I repeated it so many times, in hope of that maybe you get my point.


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> The Dragon Ball's are inanimate objects, therefor they can also give energy. Inanimate objects can give energy. So no that doesn't sound ridiculous. Basically is seems that all matter can give energy. Because "inanimate-objects" is anything.
> Again it is stated by Kaio-sama that inanimate objects can give energy. So saying that it's illogical that DB's can give energy, it's just like saying that the oceans (inanimate) can give energy.


Why do you have to keep on repeating the same things over and over again? Did you read a few pages back when Vynjira posted that scan- it was Toriyama's mistake for putting that in.
The Genki Dama only gets Ki from life forms, therefore the Dragonballs and the Dragon cannot contribute the Genki Dama. It's power from life forms, and Toriyama made a mistake(I've already explained this to you many times, please don't ask again).



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> Yes, because they are cyborgs. And no, the Genki Dama contains energy from inanimate objects too.



Read above.




			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> This just proves that you haven't payed attention to all the explaination I gave earlier about this "ki"... You use my line in a way which is obviously not my intention of the explaination, because I've been arguing that it's just the energy living creatures posseses. I didn't meant to say ONLY in DB.





			
				KI is the energy that every living creatures posses. <- That's what I meant to say said:
			
		

> live[/I]. Living organisms need energy.
> And that energy that creatures have is what they _call_ "KI". It's just the energy that that living creatures need to live. Like energy to move your muscles and ect.No. KI is just the energy that living creatures posses. Videl uses _that energy_ (which they in DBZ call "KI") to fly.I repeated it so many times, in hope of that maybe you get my point.



Wrong. Read here:


Ki is just the energy source used in the DBU, it is not the exact same life force as chakra, reiatsu, nin, etc.
Ki is in the DBU exclusively, stop saying Thanos has it, because if he did, you would be suggesting he could learn how to do ki blasts and do kamehamehas which we all know is not possible.
_This was the birth of Dragon Ball energy attacks_
You can't apply to concept to everyone else.
Videl was able to fly because she utilized her Ki. It is not "another energy" it is strictly ki because that's what the DBU uses as their explanation for energy/life force.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> Ok, first of all, how does Goku know how much energy it takes to destroy planet Earth? He doesn't. He believed Vegeta's death threat, and did NOT want to take any chances, so he had no choice but to counter his Galick Gun.
> 
> You still think that what Vegeta SAID was true when he said he could blow up Earth? Yes or no? Because if you do, Vegeta SAID that Goku wouldn't be able to block his Galick Gun and Goku did. Characters in fictional stories don't say things 100% correctly.



Yes because of the reason I posted and you ignored them;

"Evidence points to that Vegeta's attack could shatter the planet. Since Goku is able to sense it. He wouldn't have tried to counter it, if it wasn't planet shattering. He even risked his life by using Kaio-ken x4. For what, to save the mountains in the desert?
Just like Goku sensed that the attack Buu fired at earth would destroy it, it wasn't a bluff. Now Goku had never destroyed a planet before, yet he knew it would take out the planet.
So less information point to the statement, that Vegeta was bluffing."



> Actually, no Vegeta did not know his own power could shatter the planet at the time because *he was still relying on the scouters* and could not sense power levels.
> When Freeza said that one attack of his would immediately destroy the planet Namek, did it? No, he still let Namek alive.



Vegeta didn't know his own power because he was relying on scouters?? That's a new one 
So did he read his own powerlevel too high by the scouter?

Freeza didn't destroy namek on purpose he held too much back, Goku stated this, and Freeza didn't deny it.



> How do you know that Roshi *knew* that Kamehameha would blow up the moon? There was no evidence that he knew. He probably went full power and did a super kamehameha at the moon hoping for the best.



Because they know their own power, and they know what it would take to get the job done. Just like we'd never seen Vegeta destroy a planet, yet he knew that Buu's attack would destroy the planet as he deflected it immidiatly.



> Your evidence for your arguments are because the characters say so. That isn't enough. If you prove me wrong, I'll agree with you(aka the Goku's IT method argument)...



Actaully I don't even understand how you so easily agreed on that, when all the other stuff are much more clear.



BTW, you arguments are getting way too lame, and this is getting off topic. So this is my last reply to you.


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Yes because of the reason I posted and you ignored them;
> 
> "Evidence points to that Vegeta's attack could shatter the planet. Since Goku is able to sense it. He wouldn't have tried to counter it, if it wasn't planet shattering. He even risked his life by using Kaio-ken x4. For what, to save the mountains in the desert?
> Just like Goku sensed that the attack Buu fired at earth would destroy it, it wasn't a bluff. Now Goku had never destroyed a planet before, yet he knew it would take out the planet.
> ...



This entire argument is going nowhere, because whenever I prove something to you, you intentionally argue the same thing and bring us back to square 1. Now, the 1 argument we had that would relate to Thanos vs Goku...


and here, too under "energy"

The bottom line that's so easy to understand is that in the DBZ universe, Ki isexplained as the primary energy source within all lifeforms, there is no "other energy."
The Z warriors utilize their ki to make destructive blasts, and develop techniques with their ki. This concept is within the DBZ boundaries, so since Thanos is in Marvel, he does not have Ki. Therefore, in conclusion, Goku cannot sense Thanos, which means his IT is useless here.
And even if we play by your way and say Thanos has ki, his ki reading would be that of a normal human, and since Goku has lost track of Cell for instance, who's had a much higher ki reading, there's no way Goku would be able to sense Thanos teleporting over long distances.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

The only thing left is for some _neutral_ person to jugde. We won't reach an agreement.

The sad thing is that you post your argument as the "truth" while deem others' as "false". Maybe it's not your intention, but that's how it looks. This is a debate I'm not more right than you, and the same goes for the other way around. We're not discussing absolute factors here.

Btw wikipedia isn't more canon than the manga


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 21, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> this thread needs to be closed.....no one has yet to come up with exactly how goku and supes even stand a chance of winning 1/10 encounters let alone a majority.you cant speedblitz him,they arent stronger then him,hes has insane h2h skills,power cosmic,shields that can tank hits from galactus ect,teleporter,he is just way to versatile and durable.



This is complete and absolute BULLOCKS!

Thanos CAN be Speedblitzed by beings faster than him and he has been speedblitzed by characters before. Thanos shields did NOT "tank hits" from Galactus, unless you believe Thanos on his knees begging galactus too stop is LOL! "tanking."

The fact of the matter is Thanos can not keep up with Goku. Goku is just way FASTER than Thanos and STRONGER.....



			
				Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> I'll hold you to a scan later. . . as before.



x
Mr. Popo EMPTIES his "Spirit" and then Goku goes on too say that I can "NOT sense you at all!!!" Meaning he can NOT sense his soul (KI) because he has lowered it.... Ki is spirit that is why when Goku senses a individual he can tell if they are evil or good..Goku could even sense the intent of a person just by sensing his/her spirit.


----------



## Orion (Dec 21, 2006)

to the person who repped me lol,im not giving useful contrabutions to this debate because this debate doesnt exist,goku and supes cannot win this fight give it up.


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> The only thing left is for some _neutral_ person to jugde. We won't reach an agreement.
> 
> The sad thing is that you post your argument as the "truth" while deem others' as "false". Maybe it's not your intention, but that's how it looks. This is a debate I'm not more right than you, and the same goes for the other way around. We're not discussing absolute factors here.
> 
> Btw wikipedia isn't more canon than the manga



The manga hasn't stated anything about ki supporting your end of the argument. Ki is the energy/life source in the DBU exclusively. It is not in Marvel, concede already.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

> Link removed
> Mr. Popo EMPTIES his "Spirit" and then Goku goes on too say that I can "NOT sense you at all!!!" Meaning he can NOT sense his soul (KI) because he has lowered it.... Ki is spirit that is why when Goku senses a individual he can tell if they are evil or good..Goku could even sense the intent of a person just by sensing his/her spirit.



From Kid Goku's comment, it seems to be a matter of calmness.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> *The manga hasn't stated anything about ki supporting your end of the argument.* Ki is the energy/life source in the DBU exclusively. It is not in Marvel, concede already.



Don't worry you're not the only who didn't get my points, in this thread. It seems that I'm just not phrasing myself quit clear. I know that because of the questions you kept asking, and arguments you used. Everytime I answered, you needed absolut answers.

LoL... I also just saw the spoiler in your signatur. It seems that you've had this discussion about energy before.

But,

*Spoiler*: __ 



Your arguments =! Absolut truth


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Don't worry you're not the only who didn't get my points, in this thread. *It seems that I'm just not phrasing myself quit clear*. I know that because of the questions you kept asking, and arguments you used. Everytime I answered, you needed absolut answers.


Your rep bar makes sure of that...
I would think mainly because of your fanboyism of Goku( A  hard to miss trait that you and Phenomenol both share) it's hard to let go to see Goku lose. 

Since you couldn't debate against my point about Ki, you then concede that part of the debate, which means Goku can't sense Thanos.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> LoL... I also just saw the spoiler in your signatur. It seems that you've had this discussion about energy before.


And look who it's with, you're best friends Jplaya and Phenomenol!



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> But,
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Unlike you, I'm not just making my arguments as I go. I go to sources and I even go to the manga to check of what a person says or demonstrates is correct. Your means of interpreting Vegeta's attacks, Freeza's attacks, and what ki means in Dragonball are illogical. Plus, you refuse to believe that the plotholes in DB ARE actually plotholes.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> From Kid Goku's comment, it seems to be a matter of calmness.



He specifically said that he can NOT sense popo at all..and Goku senses the ki (SPIRIT) of an individual...



			
				vlaaad12345 said:
			
		

> this debate doesnt exist,goku and supes cannot win this fight give it up



Prove it? Prove to me that Thanos could beat a Saiya-jin who specializes in super speed combat?


----------



## Guy Gardner (Dec 21, 2006)

Absolut Truth... I wonder what proof that is...


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> Your rep bar makes sure of that...
> I would think mainly because of your fanboyism of Goku( A  hard to miss trait that you and Phenomenol both share) it's hard to let go to see Goku lose.
> 
> Since you couldn't debate against my point about Ki, you then concede that part of the debate, which means Goku can't sense Thanos.
> ...



Actaully about the KI, I don't even care about that. Goku doesn't need to track Thanos' energy or anything. So I'm not being biased, only arguing. And people here seem to deem other that agree with those 2 members, without even considering the arguments.
You just started using ridiculous arguments like "Does the DB's contribute to the Genki Dama? Well prove it"...
You state that what kaio-sama says is flawed, and fail to prove it.
The same goes for all of your other arguments. "Vegeta didn't know his power because he was relying on scouters". I've seen many ridiculous arguments but those....
Actaully you could've used just as similar ridiculous argument about the argument that you said you agreed on, about Goku's IT. I was suprised that you didn't counter that with such arguments. And even I considered the explaination as vague on that one, but it seemed that it got to you ?
That moment I realised that you didn't care about that, that's why you were easily willing to accept it, and not because I made a "clear point".
You had just deemed the other arguments as false, and used every lame argument you could think of.
That is weak...
Btw you should see my rep, it's filled with "bullshit", "you are such a tard" and ect... There are only few reasonable ones (not talking only about the positive ones). Instead of replying to my argument people just deem them "retarded".
That's a very unprofessional way of debate.
Rice Ball was the only one that understood my points and argued well against.



Actaully there is still one thing I'm curious about. 
Why is that you say, kaio-sama stating that inanimate objects can contribute to the GB, is a plothole? What does it contradict?


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Actaully about the KI, I don't even care about that. *Goku doesn't need to track Thanos' energy or anything*. So I'm not being biased, only arguing. And people here seem to deem other that agree with those 2 members, without even considering the arguments.


How would he fight then...?



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> You just started using ridiculous arguments like "Does the DB's contribute to the Genki Dama? Well prove it"...
> You state that what kaio-sama says is flawed, and fail to prove it.
> The same goes for all of your other arguments. "*Vegeta didn't know his power because he was relying on scouters*". I've seen many ridiculous arguments but those....


If you actually read my entire post, I said Vegeta couldn't sense power levels since he was relying on the scouters, therefore he wouldn't know what power would destroy Earth.
Whatever you see as ridiculous, it's still a question. You agree with Kaio sama that inanimate objects can contribute to the Genki Dama, so I asked you if the dragonballs contribute to it as well(since they are inanimate).



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Actaully you could've used just as similar ridiculous argument about the argument that you said you agreed on, about Goku's IT. I was suprised counter that with such arguments. And even I considered the explaination as vague on that one, but it seemed that it got to ?
> That moment I realised that you didn't care about that, that's why you were easily willing to accept it, and not because I made a "clear point".
> You had just deemed the other arguments as false, and used every lame argument you could think of.
> That is weak...


I'm really not quite understanding what you're talking about in this paragraph... but I agreed with your point about the IT because I saw that Goku didn't need to lock onto ki signals if the person or place was in sight. I also went to a DBZ site(myfavoritegames if you want to be specific) which stated the same thing. This convinced me to believe it, therefore I agreed with you.
You don't need to go into theories that I intentionally did that and ignored all the rest of your points. That's absurd.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Btw you should see my rep, it's filled with "bullshit", "you are such a tard" and ect... There are only few reasonable ones (not talking only about the positive ones). Instead of replying to my argument people just deem them "retarded".
> That's a very unprofessional way of debate.
> Rice Ball was the only one that understood my points and argued well against.


This is how our neverending snowball gets bigger. This isn't even an issue, and you go deeper into in an irrelevant situation. 



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> Actaully there is still one thing I'm curious about.
> Why is that you say, kaio-sama stating that inanimate objects can contribute to the GB, is a plothole? What does it contradict?



...and you said 4-5 posts ago that would be the last time you would reply to me  

I answered this already, but I'll answer this once again because you're like a taperecorder that keeps resetting itself.
The Genki Dama is a combination of every LIFEFORM'S Ki created into one gigantic mass.
If all inanimate objects could contribute to the Genki Dama, what energy are they giving to it? And the Dragonballs would be on the brink of "death", and so would the Dragon coming out of it.
This should lead one to believe that it was a screwup by Toriyama in his wording, just like how he never explained why there are SSJ2 and SSJ3 levels.
Vynjira posted the scan several pages back and I think she said something about Toriyama saying it was his mistake or something.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

> He specifically said that he can NOT sense popo at all..and Goku senses the ki (SPIRIT) of an individual...



Commenting on Popo's calm.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

I know I said I wouldn't reply, but this is a specific subject (I hope it can stay that way).



Space said:


> I answered this already, but I'll answer this once again because you're like a taperecorder that keeps resetting itself.
> The Genki Dama is a combination of every *LIFEFORM'S* Ki created into one gigantic mass.



Proof? Where does it say that is only LIFEFORM energy?



> If all inanimate objects could contribute to the Genki Dama, what energy are they giving to it? And the Dragonballs would be on the brink of "death", and so would the Dragon coming out of it.
> This should lead one to believe that it was a screwup by Toriyama in his wording, just like how he never explained why there are SSJ2 and SSJ3 levels.
> Vynjira posted the scan several pages back and I think she said something about Toriyama saying it was his mistake or something.



When Goku made the GB on earth for the 1st time he didn't leave the people of earth "on the brink of "death"". He doesn't take that much energy, only a little. The question you asked about the DB's is just like;
"Does a garbage can contribute to the GB? It's an inanimate object. Prove that a garbage can does contribute to the GB".
Every object on earth could contribute to the GB, because they go under the term "inanimate". So yes even the toilet in the bathroom did contribute to the GB. The dor mop also gave a little energy to the GB. Goku should be thankful to them. Because all of these things goes under the term inanimate.
Btw why do you keep bringing up what Vynjira said before. It didn't prove anything.


Incase you didn't understand what my point was by repeating myself (like you did through out this whole discussion, even thought I mentioned my points), then, as I _also then_ stated my point, that was so you could get my point.

*Spoiler*: __ 



And it still failed... *sigh*....


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

> When Goku made the GB on earth for the 1st time he didn't leave the people of earth "on the brink of "death"". He doesn't take that much energy, only a little. The question you asked about the DB's is just like;
> "Does a garbage can contribute to the GB? It's an inanimate object. Prove that a garbage can does contribute to the GB".
> Every object on earth could contribute to the GB, because they go under the term "inanimate". So yes even the toilet in the bathroom did contribute to the GB. The dor mop also gave a little energy to the GB. Goku should be thankful to them. Because all of these things goes under the term inanimate.



Curious. . . did they?


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Commenting on Popo's calm.



Commenting on Popo's spirit! (ki)......


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Curious. . . did they?



We never see wether people were drained. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Because in the Buu saga they state that people has to raise their hands' so they could drain more energy out of them. Even then, it only left them "tired".


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

> Commenting on Popo's spirit! (ki)......



Which seems to be a matter of calmness though.



> We never see wether people were drained. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Because in the Buu saga they state that people has to raise their hands' so they could drain more energy out of them. Even then, it only left them "tired".



Indeed. But I don't remember the Genki Dama ever drawing upon non-living things though.

It did drew upon forms of life other than sentient life -- plants for example.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Which seems to be a matter of calmness though.



Well they could lower their energy by becoming calm. like on namek. They needed to stay calm. But when Gohan got pissed his energy raised, as detected by the scouters.



Comic Book Guy said:


> Indeed. But I don't remember the Genki Dama ever drawing upon non-living things though.
> 
> It did drew upon forms of life other than sentient life -- plants for example.



Also from the oceans for example. Kaio also mentioned that he could tap into the power of the sun. The sun is a inanimate object.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

> Well they could lower their energy by becoming calm. like on namek. They needed to stay calm. But when Gohan got pissed his energy raised, as detected by the scouters.



Understandable.



> Also from the oceans for example. Kaio also mentioned that he could tap into the power of the sun. The sun is a inanimate object.



But it produces energy.

Inanimate objects to a certain extent I suppose.

It would be highly unlikely if the Genki Dama drew upon, say for example, a trashcan.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Inanimate objects to a certain extent I suppose.
> 
> It would be highly unlikely if the Genki Dama drew upon, say for example, a trashcan.



Well basically everything has energy. I think it would've been more correct if it just said that GB can get energy from _matter_. That would've been a better generalization.

Because it does sound ridiculous when you consider inanimate-object in a way, like saying, "well a trashcan is an inanimate object so it contributes?".


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> I know I said I wouldn't reply, but this is a specific subject (I hope it can stay that way).
> 
> 
> 
> Proof? Where does it say that is only LIFEFORM energy?



Link removed



Ken Kutaragi Promises New AV-centric PS3

Too lazy to find more.
Why can't you accept that what Toriyama wrote was a MISTAKE, because it doesn't make logical sense?



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> When Goku made the GB on earth for the 1st time he didn't leave the people of earth "on the brink of "death"". He doesn't take that much energy, only a little.


When he was made it on Earth the first time, he didn't take energies from people at all(unless there were some idiots throwing their hands up for no reason).
The reason he only took a little was because Vegeta was only blinded for a few seconds which is very little time for a Genki Dama(and it wasn't anywhere near planet destroying btw).





			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> The question you asked about the DB's is just like;
> "Does a garbage can contribute to the GB? It's an inanimate object. Prove that a garbage can does contribute to the GB".
> Every object on earth could contribute to the GB, because they go under the term "inanimate". So yes even the toilet in the bathroom did contribute to the GB. The dor mop also gave a little energy to the GB. Goku should be thankful to them. Because all of these things goes under the term inanimate.
> Btw why do you keep bringing up what Vynjira said before. It didn't prove anything.


Then I ask you, WHAT energy are the inanimate objects giving off? I don't get why can't understand Toriyama made an error. Look at this list:
Link removed
I don't find it hard to believe that Toriyama made another mistake after reading that list.
Btw, if you say Goku can "sense" how powerful a blast is , why was he surprised to see Freeza alive after the Genki Dama hit him? He should have sensed that the Genki Dama was powerful enough to kill him.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Incase you didn't understand what my point was by repeating myself (like you did through out this whole discussion, even thought I mentioned my points), then, as I _also then_ stated my point, that was so you could get my point.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



You asked me inconsistencies in Kaio's explanation of the Genki Dama, I stated it to you, then you asked it again 4 more times. I posted the quotes a while back. If we're even debating about this actual fight of Thanos vs Goku(which we're not), I'm pretty sure even a DBZfan can agree Goku has no chance in winning this fight.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

> Well basically everything has energy.



Potential energy, I suppose.



> I think it would've been more correct if it just said that GB can get energy from matter. That would've been a better generalization.



Understandable.



> Because it does sound ridiculous when you consider inanimate-object in that way, like talking about a trashcan



Indeed.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> his qualities here
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wikipedia > Manga canon???? I'm not even discussing this.



> When he was made it on Earth the first time, he didn't take energies from people at all(unless there were some idiots throwing their hands up for no reason).
> The reason he only took a little was because Vegeta was only blinded for a few seconds which is very little time for a Genki Dama(and it wasn't anywhere near planet destroying btw).



He did _complete_ the one he made on earth. Look.
The Genki Dama was as powerful as a planet shattering blast. You oppose this fact because Vegeta survived, and you can't accept anyone surviving a planet shattering blast. Here is good news for though, Goku lost most of the energy he gathered, so when he fired it at Vegeta it wasn't as powerful as an optimal one.



> Then I ask you, WHAT energy are the inanimate objects giving off? I don't get why can't understand Toriyama made an error. Look at this list:
> Look
> I don't find it hard to believe that Toriyama made another mistake after reading that list.
> Btw, if you say Goku can "sense" how powerful a blast is , why was he surprised to see Freeza alive after the Genki Dama hit him? He should have sensed that the Genki Dama was powerful enough to kill him.



I'm not saying that he didn't make mistakes, only that the plot you bring up isn't a mistake. I regret I ever asked you why you think it is flawed, since your evidence was wikipedia or other people definition of the attack. I'm therefore not even going to waste on this. Don't even bother replying about the GB and the inanimate-object thing anymore...

Goku not knowing is simple. Because he didn't know Freeza's true power, Freeza was only using about 50% of his power.



> You asked me inconsistencies in Kaio's explanation of the Genki Dama, I stated it to you, then you asked it again 4 more times. I posted the quotes a while back. *If we're even debating about this actual fight of Thanos vs Goku*(which we're not), I'm pretty sure even a DBZfan can agree Goku has no chance in winning this fight.



 that you consider wikipedia or other internet sources as more valid than Akira's canon... Inconsistency? I think not.
PS: Don't even bother to reply, I'm not even going to discus this.

Proof, evidence, analysis? I'm not starting from scratch about Thanos' speed, go read earlier replies.


----------



## Orion (Dec 21, 2006)

there is no point in arguing with you phenom,you think that goku can beat just about anyone and no matter what i say you will say something like,ZOMG HE USES IT AND THEN KAMAMEHA'S THEM OUTTA EXISTANCE,or some random other bullshit comment stick to your fanboyism all you want but there are many people who would wipe the floor with goku and he happens to be fighting one of them in this match.


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Wikipedia > Manga canon???? I'm not even discussing this.


Wth? Because I posted wikipedia in reply to your response, you automatically assume I'm using it as a basis above manga canon? You asked me where it says Genki dama uses LIFE energy, and I gave you 3 websites. 



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> He did _complete_ the one he made on earth. Look.
> The Genki Dama was as powerful as a planet shattering blast. You oppose this fact because Vegeta survived, and you can't accept anyone surviving a planet shattering blast. Here is good news for though, Goku lost most of the energy he gathered, so when he fired it at Vegeta it wasn't as powerful as an optimal one.


You must be joking. If you're trying to be funny, you're even worse than a clown. Goku's tiny genki dama on Earth wasn't even close to planet destroying, don't give me that.  If it was full where he gathered all lifeforms(yes LIFE forms) then yes it would be planet destroying.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> I'm not saying that he didn't make mistakes, only that the plot you bring up isn't a mistake. I regret I ever asked you why you think it is flawed, since your evidence was wikipedia or other people definition of the attack. I'm therefore not even going to waste on this. Don't even bother replying about the GB and the inanimate-object thing anymore...


You still didn't answer my question... AGAIN.
If something like a toilet seat or Roshi's crap gives energy to the Genki Dama, what energy is it giving off? The Genki Dama is consists of energy of all lifeforms.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Goku not knowing is simple. Because he didn't know Freeza's true power, Freeza was only using about 50% of his power.


Yet he remained that way after taking the hit of the Genki Dama. You're explanation is flawed. Time to move on.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> that you consider wikipedia or other internet sources as more valid than Akira's canon... Inconsistency? I think not.
> PS: Don't even bother to reply, I'm not even going to discus this.


I never said or implied anything of the sort in the least. Funny how you take things and perceive them in a whole different way. 
For example, this is me:
I went to the store because I love to buy carrots and I like to buy guns that shoot with a bang! At the end of the day, I gave the carrots to your mom.

Your interpretation:
I went to the store because *I love to* buy carrots and I like to buy guns that shoot with a *bang*! At the end of the day, I gave the carrots to *your mom*.

Actually read what I say instead of playing "guess who!" and getting it jumbled up in your brain.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Proof, evidence, analysis? I'm not starting from scratch about Thanos' speed, go read earlier replies.


I'm not going to get into this long debate either, but you should know that Goku can't fight at all. Thanos goes into space. Simple as that, no further arguing.


----------



## Superrazien (Dec 21, 2006)

> Actually, Goku needs a ki signal. He even states that you sense a person, not a place.



Fair enough, but that was when he first mastered it, Ill try to find the page because I remember him saying he needs to know where he is going. I mean do you really think Goku can sense ki from other dimensions? If thats so then that makes Supermans senses look like shit.


----------



## Kai (Dec 21, 2006)

Superrazien said:


> Fair enough, but that was when he first mastered it, Ill try to find the page because I remember him saying he needs to know where he is going. I mean do you really think Goku can sense ki from other dimensions? If thats so then that makes Supermans senses look like shit.



....If you read a few pages back.... I agreed with MSGohan that Goku doesn't need to lock onto the ki signal if the person is in sight.

Besides, Goku won't be able to sense Supes or Thanos because the ki concept doesn't  apply in the MarvelVerse. Btw, Superman is on your team in this fight.


----------



## Superrazien (Dec 21, 2006)

Space said:


> ....If you read a few pages back.... I agreed with MSGohan that Goku doesn't need to lock onto the ki signal if the person is in sight.
> 
> Besides, Goku won't be able to sense Supes or Thanos because the ki concept doesn't  apply in the MarvelVerse. Btw, Superman is on your team in this fight.



Oh ok. Well I really have not to much say in this fight because I don't know shit about Thanos.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 21, 2006)

> Originally Posted by Rice Ball
> I'm asking you to provide the same proof you and others asked me to provide.
> Show me scans of Superman moving Lightspeed is combat.



Show me scans of Thor, Surfer, Eros, and anyone esle fighting at high speeds like Supes does. I've shown plenty of scans of Supes fighting at high speeds but you chose to ignore it. None of them have ever shown to be able to have very fast bodily movement like Supes or Flash. Some of the people that Supes has fought who also have Superspeed are Captain Marvel, WW, Black Adam, Eradicator, Darkseid, Orion, Subject, Doomsday, Supergirl, G. Zod, and plenty more; none of them just don't have flight speed, but also very fast movement and thinking speeds. Thanos has never fought anyone with superpseed.


Has Thor or Surfer ever shown speeds like this in combat or having very high thinking speeds.

Superman catching bullets with little effort. Thor needs to use his hammer to block hand gun fire, and have trouble doing so. Supes does it with little effort against machine gun fire.



Here's Superman reading at high speeds. Which proves how fast his thinking speed is. This is before his recent upgrade, where his brain has gotten even faster. Can Thor do this? Has he ever shown to have this ability?



Has Thor or Surfer ever show to be able to fight at high speeds (using fast bodily movement). Using after images and vibrating intangible (or invisible) with their speed.



Link removed



Has Thor ever shown to be able to move that he's not seen by others. Here's Superman making a "Bat" symbol out of a few black wires and slapping it on a reporter's chest AFTER Lois openend up his shirt, and nobody could even perceive him.

Ken Kutaragi Promises New AV-centric PS3

Everything on Supes operates at superspeed, he's not just able to fly very fast like Thor, Eros and Surfer, but is able to speed up every part of his body.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Dec 21, 2006)

Only one of the links works for me, Bullet. You might want to recheck and repost them.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 21, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:


> Only one of the links works for me, Bullet. You might want to recheck and repost them.



Okay, everything should be working now!


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 22, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> there is no point in arguing with you phenom,you think that goku can beat just about anyone and no matter what i say you will say something like,ZOMG HE USES IT AND THEN KAMAMEHA'S THEM OUTTA EXISTANCE,or some random other bullshit comment stick to your fanboyism all you want but there are many people who would wipe the floor with goku and he happens to be fighting one of them in this match.



You have yet to prove anything, all you said is that Thanos wins because he is Thanos which is @#$%*!

Thanks for using every cliche line of a Dragonball hater! I have stated tons of characters who would destroy Goku, but guess what Thanos is NOT one of them. So you are going to have to do better than that. So you can leave now.


----------



## Orion (Dec 22, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> You have yet to prove anything, all you said is that Thanos wins because he is Thanos which is @#$%*!
> 
> Thanks for using every cliche line of a Dragonball hater! I have stated tons of characters who would destroy Goku, but guess what Thanos is NOT one of them. So you are going to have to do better than that. So you can leave now.



pick up just about any comic with thanos it and you have your proof troll more dbzboy.till goku can atleast destroy solar systems he doesnt have a chance at putting thanos down.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 22, 2006)

DBZBOY? LOL bwhahahahaha TROLL, I've FORGOTTEN more about comics then you've ever known in your life time. Take a trip to the Comic boards sometime and get schooled! Thanos does NOT destroy Solar Systems I don't know where you got that rubbish from...Goku went toe to toe with a Solar System buster.....

You have yet to prove why Thanos beats Goku.


----------



## Orion (Dec 22, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> DBZBOY? LOL bwhahahahaha TROLL, I've FORGOTTEN more about comics then you've ever known in your life time. Take a trip to the Comic boards sometime and get schooled! Thanos does NOT destroy Solar Systems I don't know where you got that rubbish from...Goku went toe to toe with a Solar System buster.....
> 
> You have yet to prove why Thanos beats Goku.



never said thanos destroys solar systems he takes on people who can though,and goku has never fought a solar system destroyer.and cell isnt a solar system destroyer he never produced power anywhere near being able to.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> never said thanos destroys solar systems he *takes on people who can though*,and goku has never fought a solar system destroyer.and cell isnt a solar system destroyer he never produced power anywhere near being able to.



Proof? And proof of that he was taking solar system attacks?
I've noticed that everytime someone posts something about DBZ you use arguments like "Proof, he never did it, we never saw it" and so on. Well guess what Odin fight never destroyed a galaxy, it was only stated, and even like a metaphor "Long-Dead galaxies...", you call that a galaxy? The only side effect we saw was a light on earth, which proves something about that they tired whole in the dimension to earth and hence people could see a light.
So again, proof of that Thanos has taken on Solar System, and that those used Solar System busting attacks on Thanos?




Space:
I said you consider them > manga because of the following reason (no pay attention):
You say AT made a screwup. Why? Because he made Kaio state inanimate objects can give energy.
But you have found _websites_ describing the GB as _only_ containing lifeenergy.
However, this goes against what is stated by Kaio-sama. The websites you showed arent some official DBZ pages. You clearly go against the manga and saw Akira screwup because other people say that GB only contains lifeenergy?
Because you find it ridiculous that inanimate objects can give energy? Did you know that the sun is also an inanimate object? _Kaio-sama stated that Goku could even tap into the great power of the sun_.
Basically as I discussed with CBG, he canget energy from all matter. But only some little portion of energy, because he can't take all, it would destroy objects.

So don't post wikipedia or other websites as your source, they're not canon material.


----------



## Orion (Dec 22, 2006)

galactus is atleast a galaxy destroyer and omega who was said to be 2x his power thanos has takin shots from both.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> galactus is atleast a galaxy destroyer and omega who was said to be 2x his power thanos has takin shots from both.



Proof that they hit Thanos with solar system busting power?


----------



## Orion (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Proof that they hit Thanos with solar system busting power?



why wouldnt they,they were trying to kill him,do you have proof they werent?galactus comments that he rarely has to exert himself so much to pierce a mere forcefield.he was well fed if i remember correctly.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> why wouldnt they,they were trying to kill him,do you have proof they werent?galactus comments that he rarely has to exert himself so much to pierce a mere forcefield.he was well fed if i remember correctly.



Ok, then the DBZ characters after the saiyan saga could also take planet shattering blasts


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 22, 2006)

Except they never took one head - on completely and survived.

Furthermore, Odin did destroy galaxies in his fight with Seth, it was directly stated, and not in dialogue by a character, but by the narration itself, which is from an omniscient perspective.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

I used that to show how "ridiculous" the argument "Well Thanos fought a galaxy buster, therefore he can survive at least solar system busting attacks" sounds in "your term". And saying that Galactus was going all out isn't a good enough argument. 100 % Freeza was also going all out on Goku, and he was a planet buster. And yet you use exact same argument "Well they never took a planet shattering blast". So why wouldn't Freeza use his best attack, while he was being defeated? So when you say such a thing, the exact same thing can be said about Thanos' so-called surviving solar system busting attack. Can you prove that Galactus used a solar system busting attack?



Endless Mike said:


> Furthermore, Odin did destroy galaxies in his fight with Seth, it was directly stated, and not in dialogue by a character, but by the narration itself, which is from an omniscient perspective.



Expect that it was writting like a metaphor. 
"Long-Dead galaxies are shattered!
Distant dying suns are reignited"

I'm not considering that as something litteral. Galaxies are being shattered but suns are not being destroyed, but reignited? Long-Dead galaxy? What is a "long-dead galaxy"? Why where there no mention of that some galaxies where indeed shattered? How come the fight destroyed some _distant_ galaxies but not the earth, when people even could light show on earth?
Just like you ignore peoples statements in DBZ and say that it's bullshit, you can't use those peoples comments on the fight to anything. Just because Dr. Strange says that it _could_ imperil galaxies doesn't make it to a fact. Even less when there is no proof that galaxies were shattered.
Btw, there was also the statement, that Asgard was magical and hence wouldn't be destroyed, proof of that?


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> I used that to show how "ridiculous" the argument "Well Thanos fought a galaxy buster, therefore he can survive at least solar system busting attacks" sounds in "your term". And saying that Galactus was going all out isn't a good enough argument. 100 % Freeza was also going all out on Goku, and he was a planet buster. And yet you use exact same argument "Well they never took a planet shattering blast". So why wouldn't Freeza use his best attack, while he was being defeated?



Because we didn't see him use that specific attack....



> So when you say such a thing, the exact same thing can be said about Thanos' so-called surviving solar system busting attack. Can you prove that Galactus used a solar system busting attack?



The fact that he actually stated he had to 'exert himself', when he can do things like teleport galaxies when he was weak and hungry.



> Expect that it was writting like a metaphor.
> "Long-Dead galaxies are shattered!
> Distant dying suns are reignited"



And what's not literal about that?



> I'm not considering that as something litteral. Galaxies are being shattered but suns are not being destroyed, but reignited?



Because it's a collision of cosmic power. That stuff has rather funky effects.



> Long-Dead galaxy? What is a "long-dead galaxy"?



A galaxy where all life in it has died somehow.



> Why where there no mention of that some galaxies where indeed shattered?



Because they were destroyed, and not heard from again?

There are tons of galaxies in the universe, and there are tons of beings in the MU can can and do destroy them, it doesn't have to be made a major plot point every time.



> How come the fight destroyed some _distant_ galaxies but not the earth, when people even could light show on earth?



Because the galaxies were closer to Asgard than the earth? Or because cosmic power tends to not be distributed evenly when it is flying off as a side - effect of a fight?



> Just like you ignore peoples statements in DBZ and say that it's bullshit, you can't use those peoples comments on the fight to anything. Just because Dr. Strange says that it _could_ imperil galaxies doesn't make it to a fact. Even less when there is no proof that galaxies were shattered.



Except for the omniscient narration directly stating they were.... 



> Btw, there was also the statement, that Asgard was magical and hence wouldn't be destroyed, proof of that?



The fact that it wasn't destroyed?

Asgard has taken much worse punishment, it was rocked by a dimensional shockwave caused by Thanos with the IG but still wasn't destroyed.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> Because we didn't see him use that specific attack....



He was being beating by a monkey but he thought that using a planet shattering blast against Goku and beating him would be a shame... Just leave this.



> The fact that he actually stated he had to 'exert himself', when he can do things like teleport galaxies when he was weak and hungry.



Still doesn't prove (like with the Freeza vs Goku) that he used a galaxy shattering attack.

And the Freeza vs. Goku is a contrast to this. Freeza could destroy planets but he didn't use any planet shattering blast against Goku. We can say the same about galactus. There is no proof that he used attacks that could shatter a galaxy, even though he could (like Freeza could destroy a planet (he destroyed planet Vegeta), but didn't use against Goku).
I hope you can see the irony in this.



> And what's not literal about that?
> 
> Because it's a collision of cosmic power. That stuff has rather funky effects.
> 
> A galaxy where all life in it has died somehow.



Proof?



> Because they were destroyed, and not heard from again?



There are tons of galaxies in the universe, and there are tons of beings in the MU can can and do destroy them, it doesn't have to be made a major plot point every time.

Because the galaxies were closer to Asgard than the earth? Or because cosmic power tends to not be distributed evenly when it is flying off as a side - effect of a fight?[/quote]

Proof?



> Except for the omniscient narration directly stating they were....



I was refering to the people comment about the fight.



> The fact that it wasn't destroyed?
> 
> Asgard has taken much worse punishment, *it was rocked by a dimensional shockwave caused by Thanos with the IG* but still wasn't destroyed.



So how powerful was that blast? Galaxy shattering?


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> He was being beating by a monkey but he thought that using a planet shattering blast against Goku and beating him would be a shame... Just leave this.



That was the entire point.... he wanted to win fair and square instead of just destroying the planet, or else he wouldn't be sure he was stronger.



> Still doesn't prove (like with the Freeza vs Goku) that he used a galaxy shattering attack.
> 
> And the Freeza vs. Goku is a contrast to this. Freeza could destroy planets but he didn't use any planet shattering blast against Goku. We can say the same about galactus. There is no proof that he used attacks that could shatter a galaxy, even though he could (like Freeza could destroy a planet (he destroyed planet Vegeta), but didn't use against Goku).
> I hope you can see the irony in this.



You're the one who is making a false comparison.

Thanos has taken direct planet shattering energies and been much less hurt than he was when Galactus blasted him.



> Proof?



Proof of what? That cosmic power in Marvel acts against the laws of physics? Read practically any comic with cosmic beings in it to see that.



> Proof?



I just gave you proof.

Look at Galactus vs. Mephisto, Molecule Man vs. Beyonder, Thanos with the IG, practically any cosmic battle works this same way.

As for the galaxies being closer, if we assume that the cosmic conflict will be more likely to destroy closer things, this is simple logic.



> I was refering to the people comment about the fight.



Well Doctor Strange and Silver Surfer are hardly unfamiliar with cosmic dangers and battles, so they know what they're talking about. The host of the Phoenix Force would know too, I would think.



> So how powerful was that blast? Galaxy shattering?



Much more than that, it reverberated across countless dimensions, wiped out tons of galaxies and stars across the universe, and cut off Asgard from the normal universe so the gods were trapped there.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Endless Mike said:


> That was the entire point.... he wanted to win fair and square instead of just destroying the planet, or else he wouldn't be sure he was stronger.



LMAO @ Freeza being fair...  



> You're the one who is making a false comparison.
> 
> Thanos has taken direct planet shattering energies and been much less hurt than he was when Galactus blasted him.



I wasn't comparing powers, only the way of the arguments. Never mind that then.
But you still haven't proved that Galactus was using galaxy shattering attacks.



> Proof of what? That cosmic power in Marvel acts against the laws of physics? Read practically any comic with cosmic beings in it to see that.
> 
> I just gave you proof.
> 
> ...



I was talking about the "Long-Dead Galaxies are shattered". That stuff aren't what I'm talking about. There is no proof that galaxies _were_ shattered, no one ever mentioned that some galaxies were wipped out. It's just how those 2 lines are phrased, that it is more of a metaphor than a fact.
You stated "A galaxy where all life in it has died somehow.". There is no proof of that. Why did only "Dead galaxies" get shattered?



> Well Doctor Strange and Silver Surfer are hardly unfamiliar with cosmic dangers and battles, so they know what they're talking about. The host of the Phoenix Force would know too, I would think.



Still doesn't mean make it fully reliable.



> Much more than that, it reverberated across countless dimensions, *wiped out tons of galaxies* and stars across the universe, and cut off Asgard from the normal universe so the gods were trapped there.



Yeah probably the same way Odin's fight were "shattering galaxies".


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Space:
> I said you consider them > manga because of the following reason (no pay attention):
> You say AT made a screwup. Why? Because he made Kaio state inanimate objects can give energy.
> But you have found _websites_ describing the GB as _only_ containing lifeenergy.
> ...


I have actually many things to say, but you're obviously going to choose what to answer and ignore like you always do, so I'm just going to ask you this question(actually it's been asked to you countless times).

What is the Genki Dama composed of?


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> What is the Genki Dama composed of?



It is composed of energy.


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> It is composed of energy.



Be specific, Is it composed of chi of all things in the world?


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> Be specific, Is it composed of chi of all things in the world?



Not only energy from creatures and life forms (which you call KI, as it is called in DB), but from inanimate object too, as stated by Kaio-sama.

And now you'll form a lame question like "What kind of energy will a trashcan give to the GB?".
When stated that inanimate objects can give energy, then they will probably give some portion of their energy to GB. Inanimate objects are just made up by molecules which contain energy, and some (it is probably very little) portion of that energy can be contributed.


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Not only energy from creatures and life forms (which you call KI, as it is called in DB), but from inanimate object too, as stated by Kaio-sama.



Then you're wrong then. 

Link removed
Link removed
Stated twice that Goku gathered "chi"(aka ki) from all over the planet. Inanimate objects like a toilet seat don't have anything to contribute.

And yes, it is the correct translation before Dranet did it himself.

The Genki Dama is composed of Ki, there is no other energies, I don't get why you can't accept there was an error in Toriyama's wording.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> Then you're wrong then.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



They simply just call it "ki" because it contains energy from life forms too. Why the hell would Kaio say that Goku would make a more powerful GB on earth for example because of the power of the sun.



> The Genki Dama is composed of Ki, there is no other energies, I don't get why you can't accept there was an error in Toriyama's wording.



Because it doesn't contradict anything. Just because they called it "ki" isn't enough to label Kaio's statement as fake, and say AT screwedup. That is a weak argument.


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> They simply just call it "ki" because it contains energy from life forms too. Why the hell would Kaio say that Goku would make a more powerful GB on earth for example because of the power of the sun.


No, actually he did say ki because that's what it's composed of. Why wouldn't he say the combined energies + ki? No, the Genki Dama is 100% ki based.




			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> Because it doesn't contradict anything. Just because they called it "ki" isn't enough to label Kaio's statement as fake, and say AT screwedup. That is a weak argument.


I'll give you another example. I remember Cell stating that he could perform the Genki Dama if he wanted to, however I don't believe that's possible because he's evil, not pure like Goku.
An error in Toriyama's writing.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> No, actually he did say ki because that's what it's composed of. Why wouldn't he say the combined energies + ki? No, the Genki Dama is 100% ki based.
> 
> I'll give you another example. I remember Cell stating that he could perform the Genki Dama if he wanted to, however I don't believe that's possible because he's evil, not pure like Goku.
> An error in Toriyama's writing.



lol this is a new one. I would've imagined that you would label Cell as a lier, like you earlier labelled Vegeta, but now pure Toriyama is a screwup guy  

(GB = 100 % life energy) =! fact

Damn I don't know why I'm discussing this... I don't even care about this.


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> lol this is a new one. I would've imagined that you, would label Cell, like with Vegeta as lier, but now pure Toriyama is a screwup guy
> 
> (GB = 100 % life energy) =! fact
> 
> Damn I don't know why I'm discussing this... I don't even care about this.



The point I'm making is that the Genki Dama is not composed of any "other energy" but ki. 

Just like how Cell stated he could do a Genki Dama, it's an error in Toriyama's writing.

Link removed
Lookie here, and yeah the translation is good enough for you to see "ki." Everyone lends their ki to the Genki Dama, there is no "other energy".


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> The point I'm making is that the Genki Dama is not composed of any "other energy" but ki.
> 
> Just like how Cell stated he could do a Genki Dama, it's an error in Toriyama's writing.
> 
> ...



There is no proof that it is 100 % "ki".


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> There is no proof that it is 100 % "ki".



It is composed of ki from all living things.

Link removed
Here. we form an energy ball of that of "every living thing on the planet," and with every "living thing" they have ki to contribute so the Genki Dama is composed of ki from all living things. 
There are no "other energies."

Kaio's description of inanimate objects was inaccurate and an error by Toriyama.
The Genki Dama is composed of ki, it's alright if you're wrong I just needed to point this out to you.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> It is composed of ki from all living things.
> 
> Link removed
> Here. we form an energy ball of that of "every living thing on the planet," and with every "living thing" they have ki to contribute so the Genki Dama is composed of ki from all living things.
> ...



Yes, I've actaully read that recently. But it still doesn't contradict what Kaio-sama stated. Because they don't say _only_ lifeform energy or something. They just omit the that it can gather energy from objects too.


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Yes, I've actaully read that recently. But it still doesn't contradict what Kaio-sama stated. Because they don't say _only_ lifeform energy or something. They just omit the that it can gather energy from objects too.



It's been said in every instance when he has performed the Genki Dama that he gathers chi or energy from all "living things." 

When Krillin said that the Genki Dama gathers chi from "even plants, animals, us..." why didn't he go onto say "even inanimate objects like the sun!"

It was a screwup by Toriyama just get over it! It's not that hard to understand.

The Genki Dama is composed of the ki of all living things, there is no OTHER ENERGY within the Genki Dama. Just accept the truth that Goku can lose against Thanos.

This isn't the first time that Toriyama has made an error in his writing..


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> It's been said in every instance when he has performed the Genki Dama that he gathers chi or energy from all "living things."
> 
> When Krillin said that the Genki Dama gathers chi from "even plants, animals, us..." why didn't he go onto say "even inanimate objects like the sun!"
> 
> ...



The most annoying thing is that you think that your statement are the absolut truth.
You think AT screwup, *because only Kaio mentioned a line that no other did*. That is not enough to deem Kaio's statement wrong and to say AT screwed up.
Hence if you think that the GB is 100 % pure "KI", that's your oppinion.

Do you find it so hard to accept the fact that someone has a different view than your's?

And yes Goku "loses" against Thanos, because Thanos just goes outside the atmosphere and only fights Superman. Does this make you happy?


----------



## Hamaru (Dec 22, 2006)

> It's been said in every instance when he has performed the Genki Dama that he gathers chi or energy from all "living things."
> 
> When Krillin said that the Genki Dama gathers chi from "even plants, animals, us..." why didn't he go onto say "even inanimate objects like the sun!"
> 
> ...



This is true, If Goku could of gotten the power from the sun he would of done so when fighting Buu. But he needed Mr Saten to covence the people of earth to give their energy.
Energy of the sun> energy of earths population.


----------



## Jay (Dec 22, 2006)

Space why are you arguing about what AT does anyway? its his fictional manga he can do what he want's with it.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Hamaru said:


> This is true, If Goku could of gotten the power from the sun he would of done so when fighting Buu. But he needed Mr Saten to covence the people of earth to give their energy.
> Energy of the sun> energy of earths population.



They wouldn't get sun's complete energy, only a little portion. And it seems that inanimate object contributes very little to the Genki Dama. Btw when Goku gathered energy on Namek from neighboring planets, there is no proof that the neighboring planets contained lifeforms...


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Space why are you arguing about what AT does anyway? its his fictional manga he can do what he want's with it.



Obviously he does what he wants, I'm pointing out the error in his writing. You should know that he has multiple errors in what he makes people say like Cell saying he could perform a Genki Dama.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> Obviously he does what he wants, I'm pointing out the error in his writing. You should know that *he has multiple errors in what he makes people say like Cell saying he could perform a Genki Dama*.



I still find it so funny that you deem this as an error from AT's part, and not deem Cell as lier, while deem everyone who say their attacks are planet shattering as liers...


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> I still find it so funny that you deem this as an error from AT's part, and not deem Cell as lier...



LoL, but weren't you the person says that AT controlls whatever the character says so therefore whatever the character says it's true?  

Cmon, don't play that game with me.

And yeah, it was an error on AT's part or else why would he write it? There's absolutely no reason for him to write that sentence in there.

You failed to prove to me that the inconsistency in Kaio's explanation isn't true, while I've showed you 3-4 different scans already.

And there's no point in getting back to the original debate on Thanos, because you and I are both well aware that he doesn't have a chance in this situation.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Read my previous reply again now it was edited.



Space said:


> You failed to prove to me that the inconsistency in Kaio's explanation isn't true, while I've showed you 3-4 different scans already.



The stuff you provided didn't prove the following:

"The Genki Dama is 100 % lifeform energy"

That was never stated. 



> And there's no point in getting back to the original debate on Thanos, because you and I are both well aware that he doesn't have a chance in this situation.



Because Thanos leaves the atmosphere?


----------



## Jay (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> LoL, but weren't you the person says that AT controlls whatever the character says so therefore whatever the character says it's true?
> 
> Cmon, don't play that game with me.QUOTE]
> 
> No I was, but I didn't say whatever the characer says is true, you just added that part yourself.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Space said:
> 
> 
> > LoL, but weren't you the person says that AT controlls whatever the character says so therefore whatever the character says it's true?
> ...



The funny thing is he deems one character as a lier, but not the other one, but rather says it's just an inconsistency.
The reason is because wether or not Cell having the GB doesn't make a huge difference. While Vegeta being able to destroy a planet is bullshit, because that makes Vegeta too powerful.


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

Jaydaime said:
			
		

> No I was, but I didn't say whatever the characer says is true, you just added that part yourself.


Then why do you believe Vegeta's attack on Earth was a planet buster?  



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> The stuff you provided didn't prove the following:
> 
> "The Genki Dama is 100 % lifeform energy"
> 
> That was never stated.


I've already shown you scans, and I've presented to you 3 websites already. The Genki Dama is composed of the _ki_(yes ONLY KI) of every living thing on the planet or neighboring planets. The Genki Dama is a gigantic ki bomb, why do you think they translate it to "*Spirit Bomb?*" There are no other energies inside the Genki Dama but ki.





			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> And there's no point in getting back to the original debate on Thanos, because you and I are both well aware that he doesn't have a chance in this situation.
> 
> Because Thanos leaves the atmosphere?


The most simplistic explanation without rupturing into a huge debate of both side's feats. Yeah, Thanos teleporting to the outskirts of Jupiter, Goku is stuck on Earth. It's so easy to understand and please don't let your fanboyism cloud your judgement this time.


----------



## Jay (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> Then why do you believe Vegeta's attack on Earth was a planet buster?  (


OMG I new you would say that, have I not allready explained this to you ten times now, why are you still asking me, to cut a long story short, because I provided facts that Vegeta wasn't lying.


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> OMG I new you would say that, have I not allready explained this to you ten times now, why are you still asking me, to cut a long story short, because I provided facts that Vegeta wasn't lying.



Your "facts":

1. Vegeta said so
2. Roshi destroyed the moon

Kinda like how I say I can destroy Earth because:
1. My pizza delivery man says so
2. I destroyed my glass cup


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> Then why do you believe Vegeta's attack on Earth was a planet buster?



Why do you think what Cell said wasn't a lie?



> I've already shown you scans, and *I've presented to you 3 websites* already. The Genki Dama is composed of the _ki_(yes ONLY KI) of every living thing on the planet or neighboring planets. The Genki Dama is a gigantic ki bomb, why do you think they translate it to "*Spirit Bomb?*" There are no other energies inside the Genki Dama but ki.



Websites?? They're not canon material.
Spirit Bomb is just an english name for it.
You didn't prove that the GB is 100 % pure life energy.
You showed some people stating that GB get's energy from living creatures, but that doesn't exclude the fact that it also get's energy from inanimate objects (matter).
Btw, there is no proof of that there was life on the neighboring planets of namek, but Goku still got energy from there.



> The most simplistic explanation without rupturing into a huge debate of both side's feats. Yeah, Thanos teleporting to the outskirts of Jupiter, Goku is stuck on Earth. It's so easy to understand and please don't let *your fanboyism* cloud your judgement this time.



The most annoying part of discussing with you was when you talked like that. As if you're pissed off or something... This is an unprofessional way of debating. Maybe your points would've been more clear if you weren't in "rage".

And I never denied that if Thanos just teleports away then there wouldn't be a fight. Only said that it was stupid. But if that's the way you see Thanos wining then that's fine with me.


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> The funny thing is he deems one character as a lier, but not the other one, but rather says it's just an inconsistency.
> The reason is because wether or not Cell having the GB doesn't make a huge difference. While Vegeta being able to destroy a planet is bullshit, because that makes Vegeta too powerful.



Do you believe Cell can perform the Genki Dama? Why would AT put that sentence in there if he knows it isn't true? It would be deemed an inconsistency(I actually got this error off the DBZsite I showed you  ).

Vegeta states that Goku wouldn't be able to block his Galick Gun, yet Goku does with Kamehameha. What does that make Vegeta then?

Since you didn't reply back to my last response, I assume you agree that Goku won't really have a place in this fight.


----------



## Jay (Dec 22, 2006)

I had this same argument with endless mike, so obviosly thats where you have got this Vegeta cant destroy a planet bs, and I asked him why he though this and his only answer was, Darksied isn't omnipotent so that your theory out the window, So I replied Marvelous... but Darksied was *proven* to not be omnipotent, whereas Vegeta hasn't been proven to not be able to destroy the earth, whatsover, the only thing you have is your opinion that he was lying nothing else, so lets eave it now shall we.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> Do you believe Cell can perform the Genki Dama? Why would AT put that sentence in there if he knows it isn't true? It would be deemed an inconsistency(I actually got this error off the DBZsite I showed you  ).
> 
> Vegeta states that Goku wouldn't be able to block his Galick Gun, yet Goku does with Kamehameha. What does that make Vegeta then?



And you wouldn't consider that as a lie from Cell's part? But you consider Vegeta's statement to be a lie?

Btw the comparision you make is quit invalid. Vegeta obviously knows his own power, and knows what it can do to objects. But with the opponents power it's different.
It's like if I'm a body builder and I've been lifting weights, then I would know wether or not I'm able to lift a given weight or not.

And the stuff you point out "Well Vegeta said goku wouldn't block his blast", that just a common speach. Just like in movies where the bad guy always says "You're not beating me, I will defeat you!". So you gotta find something better than that.


----------



## Jay (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> Your "facts":
> 
> 1. Vegeta said so
> 2. Roshi destroyed the moon
> ...


Funny how you leave my main fact out, and put it like that, at the end of the day I have more facts and proof then you do so stop arguing over it because your just making yourself look even more stupid by doing so.


----------



## Jay (Dec 22, 2006)

Your fact is Vegeta was lying! WOW... but with no proof whatsoever.


----------



## Jay (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> Do you believe Cell can perform the Genki Dama? Why would AT put that sentence in there if he knows it isn't true? It would be deemed an inconsistency(I actually got this error off the DBZsite I showed you  ).
> 
> Vegeta states that Goku wouldn't be able to block his Galick Gun, yet Goku does with Kamehameha. What does that make Vegeta then?
> 
> Since you didn't reply back to my last response, I assume you agree that Goku won't really have a place in this fight.


Are the dbz games classed as canon or non canon because cell can do the spirit bomb on them, and to be honest at least the games are more valid then your fan websites


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> I had this same argument with endless mike, so obviosly thats where you have got this Vegeta cant destroy a planet bs, and I asked him why he though this and his only answer was, Darksied isn't omnipotent so that your theory out the window, So I replied Marvelous... but Darksied was *proven* to not be omnipotent, whereas Vegeta hasn't been proven to not be able to destroy the earth, whatsover, the only thing you have is your opinion that he was lying nothing else, so lets eave it now shall we.



I don't get where you're going with this... Vegeta hasn't performed the planet busting action, and there's no proof implying that he can. Yes, it's very possible he was lying because he said Goku couldn't block his Galick Gun when  he did.




			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> And you wouldn't consider that as a lie from Cell's part? But you consider Vegeta's statement to be a lie?


Cell performing a Genki Dama is not possible because he is doesn't have a pure heart, therefore it's an error.
You and the other 3 in your gang state that Vegeta's Galick Gun in the Saiyan Saga was planet destroying, when there was no evidence that it was.



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> Btw the comparision you make is quit invalid. Vegeta obviously knows his own power, and knows what it can do to objects. But with the opponents power it's different.
> It's like if I'm a body builder and I've been lifting weights, then I would know wether or not I'm able to lift a given weight or not.


Not true, that was Vegeta's first time on Earth and his pride(the thing most important to him) was shattered by a "low ranking saiyan." He started spouting things off out of anger, and performed his most powerful attack in an attempt to kill Goku.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> And the stuff you point out "Well Vegeta said goku wouldn't block his blast", that just a common speach. Just like in movies where the bad guy always says "You're not beating me, I will defeat you!". So you gotta find something better than that


Wth? And the same doesn't go for planet destroying? Vegeta yells that he'll destroy the planet, it's the same analogy that you're giving to me.
Don't give me that, I'll state the conclusion about Vegeta is that it's open for interpretation. It's not a FACT that he could destroy planet Earth in the Saiyan saga.


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Are the dbz games classed as canon or non canon because cell can do the spirit bomb on them, and to be honest at least the games are more valid then your fan websites



Do you know how to edit your posts? Geez, and no Dragonball games are not canon... wth do you get that idea from? Yeah, we see Hercule damaging a SSJ4 Goku, that is totally canon.  

Since you seem to believe Cell can do the Genki Dama, explain. I guarantee you'd be wrong. 

Why don't you make a cool fanclub in the fanclubs section with your best friends MSGohan, Phenomenol, and Jplaya? You 4 make the perfect team.


----------



## Jay (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> I don't get where you're going with this... Vegeta hasn't performed the planet busting action, and there's no proof implying that he can. Yes, it's very possible he was lying because he said Goku couldn't block his Galick Gun when  he did.



As per usual.. its the same thing everytime from you.
I dont believe your being serious, and that you honestly think Vegeta was lying when it was obvious he was mega pissed off with goku and wanted to destroy the whole planet in a rage, why cant you see this? why would he lie? or what impression does he give you that he was lying?
Oh and he didn't expect Goku to be able to stop it because it was that powerfull because it was intended for destroying the planet.


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> As per usual.. its the same thing everytime from you.
> I dont believe your being serious, and that you honestly think Vegeta was lying when it was obvious he was mega pissed off with goku and wanted to destroy the whole planet in a rage, why cant you see this? why would he lie? or what impression does he give you that he was lying?
> Oh and he didn't expect Goku to be able to stop it because it was that powerfull because it was intended for destroying the planet.



Do you understand that when people get unbelievably angry, they tend to spout off things they don't mean?
Vegeta(in the same rage) said that Goku wouldn't be able to block his Galick Gun. I don't see why you can't connect the 2 statements together.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> Cell performing a Genki Dama is not possible because he is doesn't have a pure heart, therefore it's an error.
> You and the other 3 in your gang state that Vegeta's Galick Gun in the Saiyan Saga was planet destroying, when there was no evidence that it was.



Cell could just've lied about his power to scare the other. Just like you're saying that Vegeta was lying.
1. You're deeming Vegeta as lier. By saying such (yet again) lame argument like "Well He said Goku wouldn't block his blast even thought did".
 - He didn't know Goku could go Kaio-ken x4
 - He couldn't sense energy, so he didn't know how powerful Goku was.

2. Vegeta saying that his blast would blow the whole planet a bluff?
 - Goku wouldn't try and counter it if it was just a bluff. Goku trashed his body after that.
 - Goku knows what kind of blasts can destroy a planet, like when Buu fired the blast towards the planet, they immidiatly knew it would wipe out the planet.



Space said:


> Why don't you make a cool fanclub in the fanclubs section with your best friends MSGohan, Phenomenol, and Jplaya? You 4 make the perfect team.



And people get good reputation for this kind of CRAP on this board


----------



## Jay (Dec 22, 2006)

> Space said:
> 
> 
> > Do you know how to edit your posts? Geez, and no Dragonball games are not canon... wth do you get that idea from? Yeah, we see Hercule damaging a SSJ4 Goku, that is totally canon.
> ...


----------



## Jay (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> Do you understand that when people get unbelievably angry, they tend to spout off things they don't mean?
> Vegeta(in the same rage) said that Goku wouldn't be able to block his Galick Gun. I don't see why you can't connect the 2 statements together.


And I dont see why your asking the same thing ONCE AGAIN, sorry space but Im gonna be the bigger man here and walk away, I really cant be assed arguing with somebody who constantly repeats himself over and over again, this thread needs to be stopped!
Go on be your usual annoying argumentive self  and reply.


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Cell could just've lied about his power to scare the other. Just like you're saying that Vegeta was lying.
> 1. You're deeming Vegeta as lier. By saying such (yet again) lame argument like "Well He said Goku wouldn't block his blast even thought did".
> - He didn't know Goku could go Kaio-ken x4
> - He couldn't sense energy, so he didn't know ow powerful Goku was.


...Yet you believe he could have destroyed the planet. It was his first time on Earth, it's not like he was examining the entire planet for years, he was there for a day. He was spouting things off when he got extremely angry, and it easily could have been something he said out of desperation.



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> 2. Vegeta saying that his blast would blow the whole planet a bluff?
> - Goku wouldn't try and counter it if it was just a bluff. Goku trashed his body after that.
> - Goku knows what kind of blasts can destroy a planet, like when Buu fired the blast towards the planet, they immidiatly knew it would wipe out the planet.


I already posted the scans, but did Goku sense the blasts coming from Kid Buu to be planet destroying? Kid Buu wouldn't care if the planet blew up so he could fire randomn ki shots and blow up Kai's world. 
There's no way Goku wouldn't even risk his planet being destroyed. He knew Vegeta didn't care about Earth, and if there was even a 2% chance of the Earth getting destroyed, he wouldn't take it. He would defend it no matter what. Vegeta's attack being planet destroying has been deemed unconfirmed, so I don't understand why you're pursuing the argument.





			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> And people get good reputation for this kind of CRAP on this board


Why are you calling it crap? I was offering a harmless suggestion to you, and you go and flame it. That's why you got a bad rep- you shouldn't go off and insult people like that.


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> > The reason why I asked that was because I would of though the makers of the games would of asked for ATs permession to do some things on the games I wouldn't of thought they would of put cell being able to do the spirit bomb if it was bullshit, as usual in your opinion.
> 
> 
> Doesn't matter, Games aren't canon. Simple as that.
> ...


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> ...Yet you believe he could have destroyed the planet. It was his first time on Earth, it's not like he was examining the entire planet for years, he was there for a day. He was spouting things off when he got extremely angry, and it easily could have been something he said out of desperation.
> 
> I already posted the scans, but did Goku sense the blasts coming from Kid Buu to be planet destroying? Kid Buu wouldn't care if the planet blew up so he could fire randomn ki shots and blow up Kai's world.
> There's no way Goku wouldn't even risk his planet being destroyed. He knew Vegeta didn't care about Earth, and if there was even a 2% chance of the Earth getting destroyed, he wouldn't take it. He would defend it no matter what. Vegeta's attack being planet destroying has been deemed unconfirmed, so I don't understand why you're pursuing the argument.



:rofl you're begining with lame arguments again... You're giving you're garbage oppinions again.



> Why are you calling it crap? I was offering a harmless suggestion to you, and you go and flame it. That's why you got a bad rep- you shouldn't go off and insult people like that.



The way you stated that wasn't exactly something "harmless". It was a flame, now you're trying to divert the meaning.
And your tone in this debate was sometimes really a pain in the ***.


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> :rofl you're begining with lame arguments again... You're giving you're garbage oppinions again.


Alright you're going off topic and into personal issues .. contribute to the debate or don't post.




			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> The way you stated that wasn't exactly something "harmless". It was a flame, now you're trying to divert the meaning.
> And your tone in this debate was sometimes really a pain in the ***.


Really...  


			
				Space said:
			
		

> Why don't you make a cool fanclub in the fanclubs section with your best friends MSGohan, Phenomenol, and Jplaya? You 4 make the perfect team.


I offered you a perfect suggestion like this, it's your fault if you see it as insulting, not mine. I was being kind to you, I was serious when I said you 4 would make a perfect team. 



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> I allways answered your questions in that thread go back and have a look its not my fault Im not on here all the time like you, i mean look at your post count you started off with less them me and now your on over 1000 allready haha, and have you forgot which country Im from? your from america are you not? the time is different Im 5 hours in front of you or have you forgot that,


What does post count have anything to do with this..? That means nothing to me(except for the fact I probably want to become a senior member)... why are you acting so childish and laughing, I really expected more from you Jaydaime.



			
				Jaydaime said:
			
		

> and when are you gonna open your anti-dbz fan club with biased opinions only as your sig lol.
> And because you asked nicely like a good bitch... oh sorry good boy I wont reply to you or flame you, happy?


Calm down, Hulk you don't need to get so defensive. I was offering a totally harmless suggestion in you 4 making a DBZfan club together. You can refuse it, but you don't need to flame me.
Yeah I'd appreciate it if you didn't flame.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Ok Space, why did you accept that Goku doesn't need a ki to lock on in order to teleport to places he can see?
There is no proof that could teleport without ki-lock. He could've locked on Piccolo's ki when he teleported to him. He could've locked on ki when he teleported to Cell with the kamehameha.
Bring on you evidence, so I can use some lame argument to "trash" them. Maybe ten you'll get an idea what I mean by "lame arguments".


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Ok Space, why did you accept that *Goku doesn't need a ki to lock on in order to teleport to places he can see?*There is no proof that could teleport without ki-lock. He could've locked on Piccolo's ki when he teleported to him. He could've locked on ki when he teleported to Cell with the kamehameha.
> Bring on you evidence, *so I can use some lame argument to "trash" them. *Maybe ten you'll get an idea what I mean by "lame arguments".



Er,  weren't you the one that provided that argument like 10 pages ago, and I gladly agreed with you? 

I remember reading somewhere that Goku's IT didn't need the use of 2 fingers if he concentrated longer, and could teleport to another place if the person is in plain site.
I saw it on Wikipedia as well as in the manga when Goku teleported right in front of cell without using 2 fingers.
And...why would you want to use a lame argument to trash my responses?..


----------



## Jay (Dec 22, 2006)

> Space said:
> 
> 
> > LoL you say I have problems with my memory? I said I would perform that action on Phenomenol in the Flash vs Goku thread,.
> ...


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> > I and just before I go I forgot to answer you about your memory problems here you go, here was my question
> >
> > And this is what you said in the flash vs goku thread below as your answer to me or are you going to deny this aswell.
> >
> ...


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> Er,  weren't you the one that provided that argument like 10 pages ago, and I gladly agreed with you?



Yes, and I kept wondering why you just agreed to something that I didn't even argue well about. That is because you don't care wether Goku needs a Ki-lock to IT or not. But when it came to other stuff like Vegeta being able to destroy the planet or smilar stuff, you simply didn't want to accept them and tried with many lame arguments to trash them.



> I remember reading somewhere that Goku's IT didn't need the use of 2 fingers if he concentrated longer, and could teleport to another place if the person is in plain site.
> I saw it on Wikipedia as well as in the manga when Goku teleported right in front of cell without using 2 fingers.
> And...why would you want to use a lame argument to trash my responses?..



Goku also teleported from Kami's place to Cell without using 2 fingers infront of his eyes. The same was done when he returned to Kami's place.


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Yes, and I kept wondering why you just agreed to something that I didn't even argue well about. That is because you don't care wether Goku needs a Ki-lock to IT or not. But when it came to other stuff like Vegeta being able to destroy the planet or smilar stuff, you simply didn't want to accept them and tried with many lame arguments to trash them.


I guess in a way you could say that you proved me wrong for that issue, and I agreed with you because I was presented with proof.



			
				MSgohan said:
			
		

> Goku also teleported from Kami's place to Cell without using 2 fingers infront of his eyes. The same was done when he returned to Kami's place.



Ok, I'm really not getting it. I agreed with you, so what's the problem?


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> I guess in a way you could say that you proved me wrong for that issue, and I agreed with you because I was presented with proof.



If you're talking about the KI-lock thing, then no. The argument was vague, and could easily be trashed. (I think even without the use of lame arguments)



> Ok, I'm really not getting it. I agreed with you, so what's the problem?



The question is why did you just agreed on that, even though my argument about it was pretty vague? Because it doesn't matter to you.
Oh and Goku teleporting without the 2 finger thing doesn't mean he doesn't make a ki-lock.

But hey, there isn't anything worth discussing anymore, this has gotten *way* off topic.


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> If you're talking about the KI-lock thing, then no. The argument was vague, and could easily be trashed. (I think even without the use of lame arguments)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, I agreed with you because actual evidence was presented before me, which convinced me.

And the bottom line is,(as we both agreed) this is really Superman vs Thanos because Goku won't be able to fight.

Plus, the Genki Dama is composed of the ki of all living beings on the planet and/or of neighboring planets.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> No, I agreed with you because actual evidence was presented before me, which convinced me.



No I didn't put "actaul evidence" on that one. There is no proof that he can do it without ki-lock. Only thing that is shown is that he can do it without putting using 2 fingers.



> Plus, the Genki Dama is composed of the ki of all living beings on the planet and/or of neighboring planets.



You still won't give up the idea your arguments aren't fact? It's like this:
I go to school, and my teacher teaches me that,
A = B
C = D
E = F
I come home and say that "Hey you know what? A = B and C =D", and I don't mention E =F, but that doesn't mean that E = F is false. You get the idea?



> And the bottom line is,(as we both agreed) this is really Superman vs Thanos because Goku won't be able to fight.



So why don't we just leave Goku and DBZ out of this discussion?


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> No I didn't put "actaul evidence" on that one. There is no proof that he can do it without ki-lock. Only thing that is shown is that he can do it without putting using 2 fingers.


I didn't say you posted actual evidence. I said actual evidence was presented to me, aka the manga, partially you, and websites.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> You still won't give up the idea your arguments aren't fact? It's like this:
> I go to school, and my teacher teaches me that,
> A = B
> C = D
> ...


Convenient how you left the "inconsistencies" out of your analogy. Your teacher teaches you that E=F, but then everywhere you go you see magazines and everyone else saying"E=F+G", and an average person would begin to wonder whether the teacher was wrong, whereas you would stick by the teacher no matter what and won't accept she's wrong.





			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> So why don't we just leave Goku and DBZ out of this discussion?


Glad you agree, I just wanted to hear your confirmation.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> I didn't say you posted actual evidence. I said actual evidence was presented to me, aka the manga, partially you, and websites.



And I trashed them. Because there is no evidence that he didn't need ki-lock.



> Convenient how you left the "inconsistencies" out of your analogy. Your teacher teaches you that E=F, but then everywhere you go you see magazines and everyone else saying"E=F+G", and an average person would begin to wonder whether the teacher was wrong, whereas you would stick by the teacher no matter what and won't accept she's wrong.



 Some neutral person really should consider this and tell the points. Kaio-sama mentioned inanimate object, but it was never mentioned by others. They didn't add stuff to Kaio-sama statement, they only said what Kaio already had said, but *omitted* the inanimte object thingy.....
Can't believed you screwed my point like that.  



> Glad you agree, I just wanted to hear your confirmation.



I answered several times to this by saying "I do NOT deny that". I expected you would understand what that means...


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Some neutral person really should consider this and tell the points. Kaio-sama mentioned inanimate object, but it was never mentioned by others. They didn't add stuff to Kaio-sama statement, they only said what Kaio already had said, but *omitted* the inanimte object thingy.....
> Can't believed you screwed my point like that.



Every instance that Goku has done the Genki Dama(I've already showed you the scans), the people around him comment on how it gathers all the chi from the entire planet.

Inanimate objects don't have ki, and they don't have anything to contribute to the Genki Dama. It's a fact that the Genki Dama is comprised of the combination of the ki of every LIFEFORM, and is a ki based attack. What Kaiosama said was wrong, and an error in Toriyama's wording, for the 500th time.


----------



## MSGohan (Dec 22, 2006)

Space said:


> Every instance that Goku has done the Genki Dama(I've already showed you the scans), the people around him comment on how it gathers all the chi from the entire planet.
> 
> Inanimate objects don't have ki, and they don't have anything to contribute to the Genki Dama. It's a fact that the Genki Dama is comprised of the combination of the ki of every LIFEFORM, and is a ki based attack. What Kaiosama said was wrong, and an error in Toriyama's wording, for the 500th time.



True that they never said anything about those stuff later on. *But that doesn't invalidate Kaio's statement.*
Just because I learn something in school and *never mention anything about it*, doesn't mean it was wrong. What is it with this example that you don't understand.

I'm not going to use further explaination, this is as clear as it can get, if you don't get the point then I'm not replying to this subject anymore.


----------



## Rice Ball (Dec 22, 2006)

Heres how the fight would go if i wrote it 

Thanos sticks his full powered shields up and engaged both fighters analysing there abilities and talents.
Thanos knows the numbers advantage is against him and teleports Superman away. Leaving a 1v1 with Goku that Thanos eventually wins. Thanos then performs a 'Mind wammy' on Goku.

Superman returns to earth to see Goku and Thanos battleing, he joins in the battle and slugs it out with Thanos while Goku aparently rests. Goku then charges up a full power Kamahamaha wave, Superman moves away from Thanos to not get in the way of the blast, not realising the wave is aimed at him.  Superman is knocked down, then faces full power cosmic blasts and more wave blasts.

Battle ends with superman killed by Thanos and Goku.


----------



## Kai (Dec 22, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> True that they never said anything about those stuff later on. *But that doesn't invalidate Kaio's statement.*
> Just because I learn something in school and *never mention anything about it*, doesn't mean it was wrong. What is it with this example that you don't understand.
> 
> I'm not going to use further explaination, this is as clear as it can get, if you don't get the point then I'm not replying to this subject anymore.



It's wrong because it's illogical. The Genki Dama is made up of Ki from every lifeform on the planet. KI, there is no other energy. If there's any other energy in the DBZverse, state it now.

Genki Dama is pure ki, nothing else.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 23, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> never said thanos destroys solar systems he takes on people who can though,and goku has never fought a solar system destroyer.and cell isnt a solar system destroyer he never produced power anywhere near being able to.



Wrong again like always....It is STATED that cell had the power to destroy an "ENTIRE" Solar System. Thanos has NEVER took on people DIRECTLY who can destroy Solar Systems.



			
				Riceball said:
			
		

> Heres how the fight would go if i wrote it
> 
> Thanos sticks his full powered shields up and engaged both fighters analysing there abilities and talents.Thanos knows the numbers advantage is against him and teleports Superman away. Leaving a 1v1 with Goku that Thanos eventually wins. Thanos then performs a 'Mind wammy' on Goku.Superman returns to earth to see Goku and Thanos battleing, he joins in the battle and slugs it out with Thanos while Goku aparently rests. Goku then charges up a full power Kamahamaha wave, Superman moves away from Thanos to not get in the way of the blast, not realising the wave is aimed at him. Superman is knocked down, then faces full power cosmic blasts and more wave blasts.
> 
> Battle ends with superman killed by Thanos and Goku.


----------



## Orion (Dec 23, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Wrong again like always....It is STATED that cell had the power to destroy an "ENTIRE" Solar System. Thanos has NEVER took on people DIRECTLY who can destroy Solar Systems.



stated?please post the scan because im preety sure it was an opinion that he could destroy a solar system not a statement.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 23, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> stated?please post the scan because im preety sure it was an opinion that he could destroy a solar system not a statement.



a fanfic


----------



## Orion (Dec 23, 2006)

exactly,villians constantly overhype themselves,the strongest attack cell ever did  destroyed a small planet and little bit of the stuff outside,he has never shown anywhere close to solar system busting.its just like villians who say zomg im invincible and the guess what?they arent.


----------



## Kai (Dec 23, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> a fanfic



Yet his special attack(his inflation bomb) could only destroy a planet.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 23, 2006)

Thanks for IGNORING facts and evidence! Just like a Dragonball hater, you can leave now!^^^


----------



## Orion (Dec 23, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Thanks for IGNORING facts and evidence! Just like a Dragonball hater you can leace now!^^^



what facts? a villians opinion about himself is a fact now? ,his strongest attack barely busted a small planet so now im supposed to be believe he can wipe solar systems? i think not.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 23, 2006)

Man..... you are DAFT, if it is STATED in the @#%* CANON manga it is fact. Akira Toriyama would NOT put it in their if it was not true.^^^


----------



## Orion (Dec 23, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Man..... you are DAFT, if it is STATED in the @#%* CANON manga it is fact. Akira Toriyama would NOT put it in their if it was not true.^^^



its not stated its an opinion that a villian has about himself which in every manga ever are always proven wrong,just because i say i can kill an elephant with one punch does that make it true?no it doesnt,fact is cell barely busted a small planet and never showed enough power to wipe solar systems.


----------



## Kai (Dec 23, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Man..... you are DAFT, if it is STATED in the @#%* CANON manga it is fact. Akira Toriyama would NOT put it in their if it was not true.^^^



My main curiosity, Phenomenol, is why you're posting in this thread. Basically, it's to support Goku, I assume? How will Goku win?


----------



## Orion (Dec 23, 2006)

Space said:


> My main curiosity, Phenomenol, is why you're posting in this thread. Basically, it's to support Goku, I assume? How will Goku win?



obviously he will it(even though he cant without ki signature)and destroy the whole universe with a kamehameha .


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 23, 2006)

What a terrible argument.....It is stated in the canon manga written by Toriyama himslef and he put it in their that Cell has the power to destroy an ENTIRE Solar System. You are just a bias Dragonball hater ignoring facts...like always.


----------



## Orion (Dec 23, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> What a terrible argument.....It is stated in the canon manga written by Toriyama himslef and he put it in their that Cell has the power to destroy an ENTIRE Solar System. You are just a bias Dragonball hater ignoring facts...like always.



yep im a dbz hater i mean its not like i have every episode of dragonball/dbz/and dbgt on my computer and its not like goku is just about my fav anime char ever,and its not like i havnt watched dbz since childhood lol,im not a dbz hater and in every manga ever villians say the exact same shit about there powers and are proven wrong,fact cell barely destroyed a planet so until he shows enough power to bust multiple planets at the same time he isnt a solar system buster.im sure you will bring up my signature,it was takin from the shirke vs dbz thread which dbz had no chance whatsoever at winning so good day sir.


----------



## Kai (Dec 23, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> What a terrible argument.....It is stated in the canon manga written by Toriyama himslef and he put it in their that Cell has the power to destroy an ENTIRE Solar System. You are just a bias Dragonball hater ignoring facts...like always.



You're busy flaming... and completely ignoring my question.

Oh, but to answer your frustration, Toriyama also wrote, under Vegeta's wording that Goku wouldn't be able to block his Galick Gun, but Goku countered it with Kamehameha. Are you calling Toriyama a liar now?


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 23, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> yep im a dbz hater i mean its not like i have every episode of dragonball/dbz/and dbgt on my computer and its not like goku is just about my fav anime char ever,and its not like i havnt watched dbz since childhood lol,im not a dbz hater and in every manga ever villians say the exact same shit about there powers and are proven wrong,fact cell barely destroyed a planet so until he shows enough power to bust multiple planets at the same time he isnt a solar system buster.im sure you will bring up my signature,it was takin from the shirke vs dbz thread which dbz had no chance whatsoever at winning so good day sir.



This is fake!...just like you represent your signature so proudly and then you tell me to dismiss it?Bwhahahaha. You do NOT have every episode of DBZ because you don't even know what you are talking about when it comes to DBZ.



			
				Space said:
			
		

> My main curiosity, Phenomenol, is why you're posting in this thread. Basically, it's to support Goku, I assume? How will Goku win?



I have no desire to debate with somone who is not familiar with Thanos. Yes I am here to support Goku and DEMOLISH all of the OVEREXAGERATION that comes with the Thanos side.


----------



## Orion (Dec 23, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> This is fake!...just like you represent your signature so proudly and then you tell me to dismiss it?Bwhahahaha. You do NOT have every episode of DBZ because you don't even know what you are talking about when it comes to DBZ.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no desire to debate with somone who is not familiar with Thanos. Yes I am here to support Goku and DEMOLISH all of the OVEREXAGERATION that comes with the Thanos side.



i do know what im talking about iv watched every single episode of dbz.and what so far has been exagerated on thanos side.


----------



## Kai (Dec 23, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> I have no desire to debate with somone who is not familiar with Thanos. Yes I am here to support Goku and DEMOLISH all of the OVEREXAGERATION that comes with the Thanos side.



Ok, let's see. Let's say Thanos teleports to some randomn spot in space. What does Goku do?


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 23, 2006)

See what I mean^^^.....your arguments are irrelevant, and Goku WINS if Thanos does that.


----------



## Orion (Dec 23, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> See what I mean^^^.....your arguments are irrelevant.



how are his arguments irrelevant?thanos could teleport goku into space,or he could teleport himself there and goku cant do anything about it.


----------



## Kai (Dec 23, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> See what I mean^^^.....your arguments are irrelevant, and Goku WINS if Thanos does that.



Wth? Why are you making up the rules? The OP never stated if you leave the planet, you forfeit.


----------



## Phenomenol (Dec 23, 2006)

LOL! this is a FIGHT!! nowhere does it state that running away was an option.Teleporting will NOT work Thanos can NOT fly...... Thanos is going to have to TRY and fight Goku one on one-LOL!


----------



## Orion (Dec 23, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> LOL! this is a FIGHT!! nowhere does it state that running away was an option.Teleporting will NOT work Thanos can NOT fly...... Thanos is going to have to TRY and fight Goku one on one-LOL!



how would teleporting not work,he can just teleport goku into a black hole.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 23, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> Thanks for IGNORING facts and evidence! Just like a Dragonball hater, you can leave now!^^^



Facts like Galactus has destroyed Galaxys?


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## Rice Ball (Dec 23, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> LOL! this is a FIGHT!! nowhere does it state that running away was an option.Teleporting will NOT work Thanos can NOT fly...... Thanos is going to have to TRY and fight Goku one on one-LOL!



For starters Teleportation would work, it again would be a way to turn the battle from 2 v 1 to 1 v 1. Flying is immaterial. He faught drax is a vacum with no issues.
Yeah, When Thanos shields pretty much absorb anything goku can throw at him, while Goku doesn't clearly have the endurence Thanos has,


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## MSGohan (Dec 23, 2006)

Evidence that Thanos has taken solar system/galaxy busting attacks? And just because he has fought Galactus doesn't mean he has taken blasts that powerful. Just like when you argue that no DBZ characters can take planet busting attack, while clearly Freeza could destroy planets yet he lost to SSJ Goku, and you say "Well SSJ Goku still didn't take any planet busting attack".
So then show me where Thanos has taken an actaul attack as powerful as in your claim.


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## Orion (Dec 23, 2006)

when someone of galactus's level has to ''exert himself'' in order to bust a forcefield its atleast planet busting,and frieza never directly destroyed a planet,his beam caused the destruction but he didnt vaporize the planet instantly,and last time i checked frieza never used his planet busting attack on goku.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 23, 2006)

He's taken hits from Odin, Tyrant, Galactus and Omega. All of which are alot powerful than Goku, untill you wanna start that thread? Galactus v Goku?
All of which have been stated to have destroyed galaxys during there fighting.

Goku gets hurt from punches. Even Mr Satan survived those punches, would be funny to see Mr Satan survive a Warrior Madness Thor punch or Powergem Champion.

(Believe or not i'm a Dragonball Fan, i just don't have the same oppinion of him compaired to other dragonball fans, i place Goku around superman level)


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## MSGohan (Dec 23, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> when someone of galactus's level has to ''exert himself'' in order to bust a forcefield its *atleast planet busting*,and frieza never directly destroyed a planet,his beam caused the destruction but he didnt vaporize the planet instantly,and last time i checked frieza never used his planet busting attack on goku.



Proof?

And Freeza destroyed planet Vegeta without transforming, don't bring such stuff up.
Or let me just use this then:
Piccolo before the saiyan arrived could easily destroy the moon, so could Muten Roshi. But yet Nappa mopped the floor with them. Nappa (probably Raditz too, since he trashed Goku and Piccolo, whom both were stronger than Roshi from DB) can then take moon busting attacks. 
Btw I was trying to get a proof from you that Thanos can take such attacks, and countering that argument by pointing stuff out from DBZ is weak...

So I ask again, where is the proof that Galactus used such powerful attacks?



Rice Ball said:


> He's taken hits from Odin, Tyrant, Galactus and Omega. All of which are alot powerful than Goku, untill you wanna start that thread? Galactus v Goku?
> All of which have been stated to have destroyed galaxys during there fighting.
> 
> Goku gets hurt from punches. *Even Mr Satan survived those punches*, would be funny to see Mr Satan survive a Warrior Madness Thor punch or Powergem Champion.
> ...



Hehe that's like saying Mr. Satan is more durable than characters like Krillin from Namek saga and so on? Remember Krillin was knocked out by one kick from Recoom. Buu weaker than Recoom?
Even Piccolo fused with Kami (stronger than a normal SSJ or Freeza) went to the floor after only 1 punch from 1st form Cell (after absorbing some humans). Therefore
Mr. Satan > Freeza 

Btw my point by bringing such thing up, is because when people discus about DBZ characters power, they say that no characters could even survive planet busting attacks. Because there is no indication that they were attacked by blasts that powerful, even though their opponents could blasts planets.
Therefore the same can be used when talking about other fiction and other characters.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 23, 2006)

Name a character that has tanked a planet killing blast?

Freiza never used one.
Cell was destroyed by Goku's Kamahamaha wave.
Buu regenerated from pretty much nothing

Afaik every single planet killing blast used in dragonball either missed its target or killed its target.


Unlike the dragonball character, Thanos and Superman have been hit by these attacks.



> So I ask again, where is the proof that Galactus used such powerful attacks?



Are you saying Galactus blasts couldn't destroy a planet or are you saying prove they were planet destroying when he used them against Thanos.

I have answers for both, will wait your reply first tho.


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## Jay (Dec 23, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> *Name a character that has tanked a planet killing blast?*
> 
> Freiza never used one.
> Cell was destroyed by Goku's Kamahamaha wave.
> ...


Tien used the rest of his Ki to fire a fully powered tri beam at Nappa, and Nappa came out from that attack unharmed.


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## MSGohan (Dec 23, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Are you saying Galactus blasts couldn't destroy a planet or are you saying *prove they were planet destroying when he used them against Thanos.*
> 
> I have answers for both, will wait your reply first tho.



That one.

And Planet destroying isn't enough.
Freeza could destroy a planet. And did destroy (planet Vegeta, without transform)
You're saying they never got any stronger blasts than Freeza's throughout DBZ?
The Genki Dama was also stated to be as powerful as a planet busting by Kaio and Goku, and Freeza survived that.
Btw just leave this DBZ thingy,  I want proof that Thanos can take such attacks as you claim.



Jaydaime said:


> Tien used the rest of his Ki to fire a fully powered tri beam at Nappa, and Nappa came out from that attack unharmed.



That's at least moon busting power (not destruction), since Roshi had enough power (without going all out) to destroy the moon in DB. Tien was stronger than Roshi in DBZ.


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## Jay (Dec 23, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> That's at least moon busting power (not destruction), since Roshi had enough power (without going all out) to destroy the moon in DB. Tien was stronger than Roshi in DBZ.



Yes and he was at the very least ten times more powerfull then Roshi by early Dbz, nevermind late Dbz, not to mention the Tri beam is so powerfull that it actually shortens your life span everytime you use it.
I think it would be safe to say that Tiens blast on Nappa was at least planet destroying, when in comparison to Roshi's blast on the moon.


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## MSGohan (Dec 23, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Yes and he was at the very least ten times more powerfull then Roshi by early Dbz, nevermind late Dbz, not to mention the Tri beam is so powerfull that it actually shortens your life span everytime you use it.
> I think it would be safe to say that Tiens blast on Nappa was at least planet destroying, when in comparison to Roshi's blast on the moon.



Never mind such things, they just argue against it by saying that there is no proof that attacks was so powerful and so on.
However, I'm not here to discus DBZ characters' power. I want to discus Thanos not DBZ.

I only wanted specific proof that Thanos has taken attacks head on, as powerful as they claim. If it can be shown that an attack was as powerful as their claim, that is the attack is commented by the narrator to be that powerful, then that'll be enough for me.


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## Kai (Dec 23, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Evidence that Thanos has taken solar system/galaxy busting attacks? And just because he has fought Galactus doesn't mean he has taken blasts that powerful. Just like when you argue that no DBZ characters can take planet busting attack, while clearly Freeza could destroy planets yet he lost to SSJ Goku, and you say "Well SSJ Goku still didn't take any planet busting attack".



That's just like saying that I can destroy planets, but I lost to someone else because I was throwing rocks at them instead.

We don't know what the result would have been if Goku took the Death Ball head on, so at the moment Goku didn't take a planet destroying attack.


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## MSGohan (Dec 23, 2006)

Space said:


> That's just like saying that I can destroy planets, but I lost to someone else because I was throwing rocks at them instead.
> 
> We don't know what the result would have been if Goku took the Death Ball head on, so at the moment Goku didn't take a planet destroying attack.



As usual missing the point. I'm not even going to bother explaining it to you, since it seems impossible.

One thing, who said Freeza used "Death Ball" to destroy planet Vegeta, we only know he destroyed that planet. And we never actaully saw him use such a technique in the manga


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## Kai (Dec 23, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> As usual missing the point. I'm not even going to bother explaining it to you, since it seems impossible.
> 
> One thing, who said Freeza used "Death Ball" to destroy planet Vegeta, we only know he destroyed that planet. And we never actaully saw him use such a technique in the manga



Damn, Dranet's manga is down but I'll state it anyways.
It's either one of these 2:
1. Performed it before he got hit by the Genki Dama
2. Destroyed Planet Namek with it.

And Phenomenol is being completely biased as he knows Thanos and Supes can take the fight to the stars.


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## MSGohan (Dec 23, 2006)

Space said:


> Damn, Dranet's manga is down but I'll state it anyways.
> It's either one of these 2:
> 1. Performed it before he got hit by the Genki Dama
> 2. Destroyed Planet Namek with it.
> ...



1. That was never stated to be the so called "Death Ball", he just wanted to kill Goku and others.
2. That was even a different blast than the one he was going to use right before he got hit by the GB. It was just a random blast. He used for example both his hands to form that. Where as he was using 1 finger to form the one right before GB hit.

I have the manga on the computer I just checked. You can check it later when Dranet is up.

That's not a fight therefor he is not considering such stuff. Ok if you think the fight is over for Goku because Supe and Thanos goes outside the atmophere that's fine with me. Why do you mention it again? I didn't say Goku would magically go into outer space... Just leave that.

Btw this is a debate you can't just deem other people for being biased just because they have different views than you.


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## Kai (Dec 23, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> 1. That was never stated to be the so called "Death Ball", he just wanted to kill Goku and others.
> 2. That was even a different blast than the one he was going to use right before he got hit by the GB. It was just a random blast. He used for example both his hands to form that. Where as he was using 1 finger to form the one right before GB hit.
> 
> I have the manga on the computer I just checked. You can check it later when Dranet is up.


Ah, but we've never seen Freiza use the same blast to hit Goku, so the result is inconclusive.



			
				MSGohan said:
			
		

> That's not a fight therefor he is not considering such stuff. Ok if you think the fight is over for Goku because Supe and Thanos goes outside the atmophere that's fine with me. Why do you mention it again? I didn't say Goku would magically go into outer space... Just leave that.





			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> I was talking to Phenomenol because he's saying some crap about Thanos automatically losing if he goes into space or something.
> LOL! this is a FIGHT!! nowhere does it state that running away was an option.Teleporting will NOT work Thanos can NOT fly...... Thanos is going to have to TRY and fight Goku one on one-LOL!


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## MSGohan (Dec 23, 2006)

Space said:


> Ah, but we've never seen Freiza use the same blast to hit Goku, so the result is inconclusive.



So why wouldn't he just fire that at Goku, while Goku was right infront of him 
It wouldn't work... Besides that was just random ki blast, you don't know how he destroyed planet Vegeta.
So why wouldn't he just use some random ki blast to destroy Goku, with that much power??
Just leave it, you're getting too desperate now.


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## Kai (Dec 23, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> So why wouldn't he just fire that at Goku, while Goku was right infront of him
> It wouldn't work... Besides that was just random ki blast, you don't know how he destroyed planet Vegeta.
> So why wouldn't he just use some random ki blast to destroy Goku, with that much power??
> Just leave it, you're getting too desperate now.



What the..? What does Planet Vegeta have anything to do with this? I never mentioned it in the least.

Actually Freiza already screwed over Namek when he fired that blast in, it was going to blow up in 5 minutes anyway. He was tired of the planet and the rest of its inhabitants anyway.
Like you said, he was a sick bastard and just wanted to "show his power."


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## MSGohan (Dec 23, 2006)

Space said:


> What the..? What does Planet Vegeta have anything to do with this? I never mentioned it in the least.
> 
> Actually Freiza already screwed over Namek when he fired that blast in, it was going to blow up in 5 minutes anyway. He was tired of the planet and the rest of its inhabitants anyway.
> Like you said, he was a sick bastard and just wanted to "show his power."



This isn't a reply to my post....
Never mind it, if you read my earlier replies more clearly (which suggest that you never did with any of them) you would know, that I wasn't trying to debate this, but Thanos. Not DBZ, but Thanos.
I was trying to discus about Thanos' power, not DBZ.
I hope this is made clear enough now.

Know one thing though, and this is not only about this subject, that

_Your views on the matter_ =! _Absolute truth._

Just because someone views a situation different than you, doesn't give you the right to deem their arguments as biased, false, wrong, incorrect and ect. No one is perfect and not I, you or Phenomenol are excluded.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 23, 2006)

Jaydaime said:


> Tien used the rest of his Ki to fire a fully powered tri beam at Nappa, and Nappa came out from that attack unharmed.



Prove that attack was planet killing. 



> That one.
> 
> And Planet destroying isn't enough.
> Freeza could destroy a planet. And did destroy (planet Vegeta, without transform)
> ...



Check this-


This is a well Feed Galactus saying he had to Exert himself to breach one of Thanos shields. This should serve as proof of the shields power.
Want me to prove in words? afraid i can't do that because its never been typed exactly, just like you can prove Goku can do a planet killing blast, has he ever destroyed a planet?

Genki Dama is as powerful as you make it, Namak was a dead world with not much life. The Genki Dama Goku wanted to use against Vegeta on earth was likely much much more powerful.

No point discussing a Genki Dama, it doesn't matter as Thanos isn't likely to wait 60 minutes for Goku to charge up....

Your twisting of logic has to work both ways, you claim i'm wrong because Goku is more powerful than Freiza but you ignore the fact that Galactus/Omega are alot (lot lot lot...) more powerful than Goku.


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## MSGohan (Dec 23, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> Check this-
> 
> 
> This is a well Feed Galactus saying he had to Exert himself to breach one of Thanos shields. This should serve as proof of the shields power.
> ...



The GB on earth > the one made on namek which was alot bigger???
I just used the GB example to say that Freeza survived it's blast, which was as powerful (if not more) than a planet busting attack.

You were arguing that just because Freeza could up a planet and couldn't beat Goku doesn't imply Goku could take planet busting attacks, because of reasons like "Well Freeza never used such attacks and so on". 
The exact same logic can be applied to the scan with Galactus and Thanos. I'm not denying Galactus is that powerful, only saying that the attack he used against Thanos' _forcefield_ isn't as powerful as your claims, since there is no proof that the attack was that powerful.
Just like when you Goku can't take that powerful blasts, even though Freeza could destroy planets but couldn't destroy Goku and was loosing, and did lose.

I think we should just agree on that you say Thanos wins, and I say Superman and Goku wins and move on. Because I'm probably downpowering Thanos, and uppowering Goku relative to you, while you're downpowering Goku and uppowering Thanos relative to me.
I accept that you think Thanos beats down Superman and Goku with hands tied behind his back


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## Jay (Dec 23, 2006)

> Rice Ball said:
> 
> 
> > Prove that attack was planet killing. QUOTE]
> ...


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## Phenomenol (Dec 23, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> He's taken hits from Odin, Tyrant, Galactus and Omega. All of which are alot powerful than Goku, untill you wanna start that thread? Galactus v Goku?
> All of which have been stated to have destroyed galaxys during there fighting.
> 
> Goku gets hurt from punches. Even Mr Satan survived those punches, would be funny to see Mr Satan survive a Warrior Madness Thor punch or Powergem Champion.
> ...



Wrong! An AUGMENTED Thanos has taken hits from a WEAKER Tyrant and Thanos was getting his ass handed to him. Thanos needed prep time to even take on tyrant. Thanos did NOT fight the GIANT sized Odin which seth has fought in the POCKET DIMENSION... Odin never destroyed galaxies, Thanos fought Odin holding back and still was getting his ass handed to him. Thanos NEVER took an attack from Galactus and Omega he used ALL of his shields and defensive Armor and he BARELY survived. Thanos is nothing more than a prep time whore.

WTF? Goku can SHRUGG of planet destroying blasts with sheer durability....he does NOT need shields like weak ass Thanos to protect himself. Thanos has died from a punch going through his body and has been hurt by normal attacks-LOL!

Goku wins EASILY against thanos.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 23, 2006)

Again, Drax the Destroyer was created by Thanos' grandfather, Kronos, the time cosmic, to _specifically_ kill Thanos.

In addition, Mistress Death was there to ensure it.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 23, 2006)

The fact that Thanos DIED so EASILY is what I am talking about. There are alot of characters who have characters built to kill them but at least they would go down in an epic fight. Also Thanos getting his heart ripped out is NO excuse whatsoever....


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## Rice Ball (Dec 23, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> The GB on earth > the one made on namek which was alot bigger???
> I just used the GB example to say that Freeza survived it's blast, which was as powerful (if not more) than a planet busting attack.



The namek one wasn't planet killing.
Besides Goku did say it wasn't as powerful due to the state of Namak and the nature of the Spirit bomb drawing power from all life on the planet.



MSGohan said:


> You were arguing that just because Freeza could up a planet and couldn't beat Goku doesn't imply Goku could take planet busting attacks, because of reasons like "Well Freeza never used such attacks and so on".
> The exact same logic can be applied to the scan with Galactus and Thanos. I'm not denying Galactus is that powerful, only saying that the attack he used against Thanos' _forcefield_ isn't as powerful as your claims, since there is no proof that the attack was that powerful.
> Just like when you Goku can't take that powerful blasts, even though Freeza could destroy planets but couldn't destroy Goku and was loosing, and did lose.



Did Goku ever tank a direct energy attack from Frieza? He was never directly hit by a powerful attack, thats the only reason why i say this.
Thanos WAS hit directly by the blasts.
Hell i believe Goku can do planet killing attacks, i think everyone after the Namak saga could do it if they focus there attack. But i don't believe for 1 minute goku has 10% of Galactus's power.

Your the one saying Galactus isn't a planet killer. Which in my oppinion is very wrong.



MSGohan said:


> I think we should just agree on that you say Thanos wins, and I say Superman and Goku wins and move on. Because I'm probably downpowering Thanos, and uppowering Goku relative to you, while you're downpowering Goku and uppowering Thanos relative to me.
> I accept that you think Thanos beats down Superman and Goku with hands tied behind his back



Yeah i don't expect to change anyone who have there mind make up.
But i pretty much bet anyone else who types in 'Thanos wins' will get a reply from you right?


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 23, 2006)

> The fact that Thanos DIED so EASILY is what I am talking about. There are alot of characters who have characters built to kill them but at least they would go down in an epic fight.



Not every anti-character are the same; they vary from each other.

In addition, not everything has to be a cliche.



> Also Thanos getting his heart ripped out is NO excuse whatsoever....



Who was Thanos to deny Mistress Death from her job?


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## Phenomenol (Dec 23, 2006)

The fact of the matter is that Thanos got IMPALED and where is that Dynamic durabilty? Thanos does NOT take on planet or Galaxy busting attacks like everyone fabricates...


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## Rice Ball (Dec 23, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> The fact of the matter is that Thanos got IMPALED and where is that Dynamic durabilty? Thanos does NOT take on planet or Galaxy busting attacks like everyone fabricates...



You still don't see why it happened do you? Dispite 3 people explaining it.


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## Comic Book Guy (Dec 23, 2006)

> The fact of the matter is that Thanos got IMPALED and where is that Dynamic durabilty? Thanos does NOT take on planet or Galaxy busting attacks like everyone fabricates...



Well, the said dynamic durability could be negated or bypassed by Drax or Mistress Death or both.


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## MSGohan (Dec 23, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> The namek one wasn't planet killing.
> Besides Goku did say it wasn't as powerful due to the state of Namak and the nature of the Spirit bomb drawing power from all life on the planet.



Indeed namek didn't have enough energy like earth, but that's why he collected energy from neighboring planets too. The Genki Dama also needed to be full power as stated by Krillin in V27Ch02, that's why GOku needed to much extra time.



> Did Goku ever tank a direct energy attack from Frieza? He was never directly hit by a powerful attack, thats the only reason why i say this.
> Thanos WAS hit directly by the blasts.
> Hell i believe Goku can do planet killing attacks, i think everyone after the Namak saga could do it if they focus there attack. But i don't believe for 1 minute goku has 10% of Galactus's power.



Freeza did fire ki blasts at Goku before he was 100 %, but Goku took them all head on, and Freeza after that was pissed, and was thinking he wouldn't beat Goku so he tried to destroy namek so he by default would win the battle because Goku wouldn't survive in space, but he held too much back, as Goku stated. Freeza's ki blasts was useless against SSJ Goku. If he could make a ki blast capable of destroying Goku he would, instead of trying to blow up the planet like a coward, so Goku wouldn't survive in space.
Anyway never mind this. Because I believe you won't think Freeza's blasts was planet busting level before he was 100 %. So let's just leave this.



> Your the one saying Galactus isn't a planet killer. Which in my oppinion is very wrong.



Don't worry I don't think that. I only said that the attack Thanos took wasn't as powerful as for example a galaxy busting level, even though Galactus can (according to you) destroy a galaxy. Just like Freeza could destroy a planet but, (from your point of view) didn't make such powerful attacks against Goku.
So this is my point of view on the matter of Galactus against Thanos, just like you have a point of view on Goku vs. Freeza thing.



> Yeah i don't expect to change anyone who have there mind make up.
> But i pretty much bet anyone else who types in 'Thanos wins' will get a reply from you right?



I'm only replying because I have the feeling that everytime people say such a thing, they make it sound like what they are saying is absolute truth, fact and ect, like saying that any (normal) DBZ would agree with them. Hence like labeling us as extreme fanboys or fanatics...
But you're not doing that.
I think I'll just stop replying to such posts from now on.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 23, 2006)

Rice Ball said:


> You still don't see why it happened do you? Dispite 3 people explaining it.



Same with you Dragonball haters! How does it feel to have your own medicine thrown back at you/ 

The Fact is Thanos can do NOTHING to Goku! Thanos is too slow to touch a Saiya-jin who specializes in super speed combat...


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## Rice Ball (Dec 23, 2006)

MSGohan said:


> Freeza did fire ki blasts at Goku before he was 100 %, but Goku took them all head on, and Freeza after that was pissed, and was thinking he wouldn't beat Goku so he tried to destroy namek so he by default would win the battle because Goku wouldn't survive in space, but he held too much back, as Goku stated. Freeza's ki blasts was useless against SSJ Goku. If he could make a ki blast capable of destroying Goku he would, instead of trying to blow up the planet like a coward, so Goku wouldn't survive in space.
> Anyway never mind this. Because I believe you won't think Freeza's blasts was planet busting level before he was 100 %. So let's just leave this.



The funny thing is i do think DBZ characters after the Frieza saga are planet killers, but i don't belieev they are on the same level as Thanos, Tyrant, Odin, Galactus, Omega etc.




MSGohan said:


> Don't worry I don't think that. I only said that the attack Thanos took wasn't as powerful as for example a galaxy busting level, even though Galactus can (according to you) destroy a galaxy. Just like Freeza could destroy a planet but, (from your point of view) didn't make such powerful attacks against Goku.
> So this is my point of view on the matter of Galactuc against Thanos, just like you have a point of view on Goku vs. Freeza thing.



Frieza is a planet killer, Galactus is a Galaxy buster.
Note the difference. 

I used the frieza example to assist in convincing you that Galactus used his full power on Thanos.




MSGohan said:


> I'm only replying because I have the feeling that everytime people say such a thing, they make it sound like what they are saying is absolute truth, fact and ect, like saying that any (normal) DBZ would agree with them. Hence like labeling us as extreme fanboys or fanatics...
> But you're not doing that.
> I think I'll just stop replying to such posts from now on.



I've been pretty good not labeling you as a fanboy yet like phemon and jplaya(sorry did i say fanboy? I meant forum troll and general horriable person who should salsa blindfolded on motorways). Most normal dragonball fans (like me) don't think Galactus is weaker than Goku.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 23, 2006)

RiceBall said:
			
		

> I've been pretty good not labeling you as a fanboy yet like phemon and jplaya(sorry did i say fanboy? I meant forum troll and general horriable person who should salsa blindfolded on motorways). Most normal dragonball fans (like me) don't think Galactus is weaker than Goku.



I never said Goku can beat Galactus did I?

Now your chatting crap....I am not a fanboy nor a troll...you are just mad because I am exposing your terrible fanboyism of Thanos. Not too mention you are being a troll...OVEREXAGERATING Thanos so called feats can really piss people like me off! You are just taking advantage of the ignorant posters who don't know much about Thanos.


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## Rice Ball (Dec 23, 2006)

Phenomenol said:


> I never said Goku can beat Galactus did I?
> 
> Now your chatting crap....I am not a fanboy nor a troll...you are just mad because I am exposing your terrible fanboyism of Thanos. Not too mention you are being a troll...OVEREXAGERATING Thanos so called feats can really piss people like me off! You are just taking advantage of the ignorant posters who don't know much about Thanos.



I'm quite proud to say i'm a Thanos Fanboy 
But you are a forum troll, and general idiot to boot.

I've backed up everything i've posted in thread, you however don't and can't due to lack of knowledge, you just make crap up and hope people don't call you on it, if they do you ignore them.

This is likely the last time i'll reply to one of you posts.


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## Phenomenol (Dec 23, 2006)

Oh wow...great comeback!!! Internet tough guys you got to love them.....

Well, as a "PROUD" Thanos fanboy, next time try and post the ACTUAL truth....


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## Orion (Dec 23, 2006)

what exactly is goku going to do to thanos?he cant speedblitz him,hes not stronger in physical combat,and thanos is at the very least his equal in energy manipulation so tell me what exactly goku is going to do before he gets melee'd to death,bathed in the power cosmic,or teleported into a star or blackhole.


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## Hamaru (Dec 24, 2006)

Please No fighting and name calling. Gooba already made a thread about cracking down on that type of stuff. If you feel someone is not aknowledging facts then just don't talk to them.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 24, 2006)

vlaaad12345 said:


> thanos is at the very least his equal in energy manipulation
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Orion (Dec 24, 2006)

^^yeah projection was what i meant lol.


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## Hamaru (Dec 25, 2006)

Thanos would not give Goku the time to use a Spiet bomb in the first place, so what would it matter?


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