# Can a normal complete susanoo tank A tbb?



## Foxsikes (Jan 6, 2014)

in my opinion, a tbb is basically the most destructive jutsu in the anime and manga (arguably).  It completely disintegrates and destroys whatever it hits which includes mountains and villages.  Now there are different levels of TBBS though (obviously) since Naruto's tbbs have been shown to be far superior to the tbb of other tailed beasts and Naruto and Bee have also been shown to be able to greatly charge up or fire multiple versions.  Now the juubi on the other hand can fire a tbb that destroys the tbb of Naruto and Bee's which puts it on a compeltely different level.  Okay so now that I said all that I want to say that I want to use a normal tailed beast bomb in this thread.  Not a super tbb from Naruto but a normal one from weakers tailed beasts that can destroy mountains and small villages.  

Now I also there are many forms of susanoos but for this thread I want to use the complete susanoo without legs.  I believe we have seen this particular susanoo from Sasuke when he fought Danzo so lets use that level of susanoo here.  

Can a susanoo of that level survive the impact and explosion of at least one tbb?

1) If yes, then do you think it can survive multiple tbbs?  
2) If no, then what is the most powerful attack a susanoo of that level can survive?

Last question 

3) Are all complete susanoos on the same level?  Like is Sasuke's complete susanoo on the same level as Madara's version?  What about Itachi's?  Can the complete susanoo of one person's beat the complete susanoo of another person's?  Does it work the same as other jutsus where even when two people fire the same jutsu at eachother, the person with the better chakra and stronger chakra wins the jutsu class as seen when sasuke won the fireball contest against Itachi.

THank you to anyone who answers.


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## The Faceless Man (Jan 6, 2014)

Bhaaaa it took Madara PS to tank that.

Itachi complete susanoo > Madara complete susanoo > Sasuke complete susanoo 

Itachi can tank that because yata mirror, but others can stand lets say to rasenshuriken power


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## Kyu (Jan 6, 2014)

Perfect/Final Susano'o and perhaps Yata Mirror can withstand a standard Bijudama.

All other versions of Susano'o are royally fucked. Especially when in opposition to Naruto's Senpou: Super Bijudama.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 6, 2014)

Foxsikes said:


> Can a susanoo of that level survive the impact and explosion of at least one tbb?



Yes; the most basic form of Susano'o is more durable than the Hachibi, who withstood a direct hit from Bijuudama. We know this because the Raikage chopped all the way through the Hachibi's horn, yet chopped only half-way through Sasuke's ribcage Susano'o. Assuming all the other layers of the Jutsu are just as durable, Susano'o should be able to endure a direct hit from Bijuudama rather comfortably.



> 1) If yes, then do you think it can survive multiple tbbs?



Naturally, but this doesn't apply to combined Bijuudama because we have no way of knowing just how much that increases the power (based on results, it isn't simply like adding them up).

I'd say a complete regular Susano'o, with or without the Yata Mirror, could withstand three Bijuudama--one for every chakra layer. A fourth would probably bust it open; whether or not the user survives depends on their own personal durability and the amount of the attack that gets damage-soaked before Susano'o breaches.



> 3) Are all complete susanoos on the same level? Like is Sasuke's complete susanoo on the same level as Madara's version?  What about Itachi's?



They are close enough that there would be no apparent difference if they fought each other, but some are more effective than others in certain ways (Madara can use more Magatama simultaneously, Itachi has the Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror, Sasuke has Enton weapons).



> Can the complete susanoo of one person's beat the complete susanoo of another person's?



Probably not, because it takes more power to break open Susano'o that Susano'o itself has shown.



> Does it work the same as other jutsus where even when two people fire the same jutsu at eachother, the person with the better chakra and stronger chakra wins the jutsu class as seen when sasuke won the fireball contest against Itachi.



Nah, because they are not constantly pushing against each other. If they were, then yes, it would happen like that eventually.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 6, 2014)

IMO Sasuke's and Itachi's complete MS Susano'o can tank a normal charged Bijudama from any Bijuu 1-8. And by complete Susano'o, I mean this and this. Kurama's Bijudama destroyed Mokujin, however, we do not know how durable Mokujin is compared to Susano'o. Unformed Perfect Susano'o tanked it no problem. Perfect Susano'o limit is somewhere between a Bijudama from Kurama and 4 Juubidamas compressed into a barrier.

I'd say complete Susano'o can take an uncharged Bijudama but not a charged one from Kurama.


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## Ersa (Jan 6, 2014)

We've never actually seen the upper limits of what complete Susanoo can do, most people make the mistake of thinking the muscled variant is complete Susanoo and forget the final form actually has armour. Considering the massive boost a Susanoo gets simply but generating muscles, a layer of armour should be even more. That being Bijuudama is arguably the most destructive attack in the manga bar Jinton/Obito's Omuyten.

Itachi's V4 with Yata's Mirror should be able to tank uncharged Bijuudama from Bijuu 1-9, factoring in it's hype and comment from someone who knows quite a bit about Bijuudama. He stands absolutely no chance against stronger ones however (BM Super Bijuudama, Juubidama).

Madara's Perfect Susanoo took the equivalent of 9 PS-sword infused Bijuudama to bust it so we sort have a level of durability for it. Although I think the 2km variant of PS > Kyuubi armour PS.

Sasuke's remains an unknown at this point, his PS should be comparable to Madara's once we get feats, possibly superior.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 6, 2014)

Didn't Kirin bust Itachi's Susanoo, and we should all be able to agree that Itachi needed his full Susanoo to weaken the damage dealt to him, as he said Susanoo. And note that when Itachi said that Susanoo was how he was able to survive he showed it in its final form instead of skeletal. Also Itachi was prepping Susanoo the entire time when Sasuke was talking and Itachi wasn't moving and had MS on so he should've been able to flash cast final Susanoo that way he would be able to block the attack without Sasuke being able to redirect the hit to somewhere weak on Susanoo.

Also note that against Nagato, Itachi didn't just flash his final Susanoo and impale Nagato, he had to transition his Susanoo through the stages before he used Final Susanoo. So thus Itachi had to flash activate Susanoo(not really since he was building it up while Sasuke was talking) to survive because as we all know there is no way ribcage or skeletal Susanoo would be able to block Kirin to an extent where Itachi can survive rather uninjured.

I think that bijuu dama can get through a normal complete Susanoo or atleast blow a hole in it to where the user is open to a follow up attack, or be in the same shape Itachi was after Kirin struck. Also how is YM supposed to block bijuudama, if it infuses yang to counter yin and yin to counter yang, all it would do is make it more powerful or just collapse a blow up. Also as someone noted when Naruto was trying to make a bijuu bomb- It is extremely extremely dense, so given its velocity and weight its impact alone is very destructive much less the explosive force.

I think Yata Mirror will deflect it enough to mitigate some damage but not all. PS blocks it by spitting(spit).

I think a better way for a Susanoo user to mitigate Bijuu bombs is to intercept the attack with an attack(Totsuka, arrow, Magatama, sword) before it makes contact with the Susanoo preemptively then that would be a solid counter, but highly improbable in a combat scenario, it can happen though.


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## Raiken (Jan 6, 2014)

In regards to this level of Susano'o, they're all oblitereated by a Standard Bijuu Bomb.
No contest, at most Itachi's Complete Susano'o could probably tank Rasen Shuriken and Mini Bijuu Dama because of Yata.
The mountain busters rape, /thread.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 6, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I think a better way for a Susanoo user to mitigate Bijuu bombs is to intercept the attack with an attack(*Totsuka*, arrow, Magatama, *sword*) before it makes contact with the Susanoo preemptively then that would be a solid counter, but highly improbable in a combat scenario, it can happen though.



So...Bijuu baseball?

It's just Kishi enough to work (TM).


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## IchLiebe (Jan 6, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> So...Bijuu baseball?
> 
> It's just Kishi enough to work (TM).



Its the only way i can see Susanoo consistently defend against bijuu dama, but even then I said its might be improbable, I just don't know how the mechanics will work. Then you have Bee's Light hack(thats what it was called on the game, the one where it blasted Suigetsu) that kinda gives the possibility that Bee or the 8tails had fought someone that possibly was intercepting the bijuu damas thrown at him.

We may never really know for sure how Susanoo will compare to a bijuu dama, we may in the next few chapters but right now no one really knows but given what we have seen and comparing them to various things I believe that Bijuu dama can consistently bust complete Susanoo with Susanoo just trying to tank it(not block or intercept it)


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## RedChidori (Jan 6, 2014)

Sure. Susano'o was stated by Sasuke that Susano'o's defense was > Gaara's absolute defense. Itachi's Final Susano'o can tank everything because of Yata Mirror, Sasuke's Susano'o can tank a Bijuudama with a few scratches, and Madara's final Susano'o can tank it without question .


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## IchLiebe (Jan 6, 2014)

RedChidori said:


> Itachi's Final Susano'o can tank everything because of Yata Mirror, .



Feats of Yata Mirror blocking "everything"...thats impossible in this verse as we have techniques that destroy anything and have feats to prove it and even then they have limitations.

Cubed Jinton>Yata Mirror
Omyouton>Yata Mirror.
Senjutsu=Omyuoton

So Senjutsu>Yatamirror.


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## Bonly (Jan 6, 2014)

I highly doubt it, I think only PS could withstood a Bijuudama and stay around to tell the tale.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 6, 2014)

Only Perfect Susano'o is strong enough to tank a standard Bijudama. Complete and Final Stage both get wiped off the map. Even Madara had to reform his Final Stage Susano'o around Kurama to have it survive the standard Bijudama.

Complete Stage Susano'o has been breached by Danzo's Futons, Tsunade's physical strength, A's and Onoki's combo, Onoki's Jinton,  and the tail strikes of the Biju. Bijudama wipes it off the fricking map.


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## Krippy (Jan 7, 2014)

Bijuudama is the most overrated jutsu in the BD. Complete Susano'o can tank a standard BB to where the user is still alive. Any final Susano'o can tank a standard BB from any of the Bijuu. Perfect Susano'o can tank an super BB to the point where the user is still in good enough condition to fight. 

Obito body slammed and destroyed a Kurama avatar amped by senjutsu and a Completed Susano'o boosted by senninka, which implies they are equally durable. Even if you take away the durability boost from the senjutsu they should be roughly the same. 

And this is the same Kurama avatar that tanked a juubi laser.

So yeah, it should be just fine.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 7, 2014)

Krippy said:


> Bijuudama is the most overrated jutsu in the BD. Complete Susano'o can tank a standard BB to where the user is still alive. Any final Susano'o can tank a standard BB from any of the Bijuu. Perfect Susano'o can tank an super BB to the point where the user is still in good enough condition to fight.
> 
> Obito body slammed and destroyed a Kurama avatar amped by senjutsu and a Completed Susano'o boosted by senninka, which implies they are equally durable. Even if you take away the durability boost from the senjutsu they should be roughly the same.
> 
> ...


Completely forgetting the power boost Naruto gave Sasuke there too in your little analysis, Krippy? The giant complete Susano'o enhanced by Senninka was also enhanced by Naruto's Version 1 shroud around him? 

Complete Susano'o has been pierced and destroyed by attacks far weaker than the Bijudama. Even Madara's Final Susano'o had to immediately shift to Perfect stage to tank the standard Bijudama from Kurama.


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## Csdabest (Jan 7, 2014)

Madara Susano-o tanked a bijuu Dama with out a scratch. I would venture off to say that maybe a level or two below.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 7, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Madara Susano-o tanked a bijuu Dama with out a scratch. I would venture off to say that maybe a level or two below.


He had to immediately go _Perfect Susano'o_ to tank that Bijudama. And even then it was a _standard, uncharged_ one. 

Lower level Susano'o are wiped off the map.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jan 7, 2014)

Ultimate Bijuu said:


> Bhaaaa it took Madara PS to tank that.
> 
> *Itachi complete susanoo > Madara complete susanoo > Sasuke complete susanoo *
> 
> Itachi can tank that because yata mirror, but others can stand lets say to rasenshuriken power



Baseless assumption > Baseless assumption > Baseless assumption.(Note: Gaara's statement pretty much generalizes the Susano'o defensively)

Anyways let's list the number of suspects capable of tanking a TBB and surviving.

Orochimaru, Suigetsu, deva path, Hachibii 1 and 2, Hashirama Senju

So we see a number of individuals that have either tanked the jutsu out right, or mitigated the jutsu enough to withstand the attack. So we see disintegrating mountains and villages is it's only claim the fame.

In regards to Susano'o being actually able to tank it. Let's throw a number of DEFENSIVE FEATS OUT THERE.

The first major defensive feat for Susano'o was shielding Itachi from Kirin. Now it's important to note that KIRIN DID manage to destroy Susano'o. However, it failed to kill Itachi.

That failing to kill feat opens the flood gates for everything else.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5
6, 7, 8, 7, 8(There's much, much, more. But believe you get the point)

What's interesting to note however, is that the smaller MORE PRECISE attacks have far more effective against Susano'o. In fact the Juubi's nuke did no damage to Susano'o. Neither did TBB against PS. However Raikage's punches did notable damage to that variation of Susano'o. As did Hashi's punch out brigade. 

Where is this perception that AOE attacks are the solution to strong defenses? Didn't the third Raikage dispel that myth.

Anyways TBB varies with user, and can still be charged to net better results. I think there's two questions that need to be raised.

A. Is TBB capable of damaging the lesser forms of Susano'o. And the answer to that question is maybe. Depending on the user. Depending on the power of the TBB. Depending on the lesser form of Susano'o hit. 

B. Even if it manages to destroy Susano'o, will it kill the user. The answer to that question is a big fat HELL NO. Susano'o despite it's failures has never failed to keep it's user alive. Even in the mist of TOTAL failure.

The problem with this discussion is TBB destruction feats don't translate well outside of landscape. The only that's manage to kill is the Juubi's, the rest have failed miserably for the most part. Considering Hachibi was able to tank the attack TWICE. Considering Nagato and Oro was able to tank the attack. Why couldn't Susano'o? All and all, there's little case one can make for TBB. As Susano'o has been more successful on the defensive end, than TBB on the offensive end. 

I think people really need to stop using A, B, C logic. TBB covering more AOE than say a punch, doesn't mean more success against Susano'o. That punch is concentrating it's damage on a single point. TBB isn't.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Completely forgetting the power boost Naruto gave Sasuke there too in your little analysis, Krippy? The giant complete Susano'o enhanced by Senninka was also enhanced by Naruto's Version 1 shroud around him?


You have no case, as usual SS12. Show me a panel that supports Naruto's chakara helping Sasuke's Susano'o in the defensive aspect. I think you need to start arbitrating on things you can validate, and stop making assumptions.



> Complete Susano'o has been pierced and destroyed by attacks far weaker than the Bijudama. Even Madara's Final Susano'o had to immediately shift to Perfect stage to tank the standard Bijudama from Kurama.


Yet those weaker attacks have had a better history of success against PS than TBB.
That's because those quote on quote attacks, aren't necessarily weaker. There effects is just concentrated. Giving them advantage when it comes to breaching defenses. Just compare FRS to hell stab. Isn't the later more powerful in the AOE department? But I believe the other manage to succeed where FRS failed.

And no Madara didn't have to anything. Hashirama WITH NO SUSANO'O manage to tank TBB.
Let's not forget he was on ground 0, as well.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 7, 2014)

Ehhh... Too many inconsistencies for me to decide. If I absolutely had to, I'd say the stronger versions get destroyed, but the user remains intact. Final form could potentially do it, and PS laughs in its face.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 7, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Only Perfect Susano'o is strong enough to tank a standard Bijudama. Complete and Final Stage both get wiped off the map. Even Madara had to reform his Final Stage Susano'o around Kurama to have it survive the standard Bijudama.



I don't remember that happening.



> Complete Stage Susano'o has been breached by Danzo's Futons,



That was only one layer, and that is the only feat that Fuuton attack has; there's nothing else to compare it to.



> Tsunade's physical strength,



She broke open the lowest form of Susano'o.



> A's and Onoki's combo,



Like Danzou's Fuuton, attacking Susano'o is the only feat; there's no way to tell how powerful it is unless you scale _based on_ Susano'o.



> Onoki's Jinton,



The only time Jinton ever breached Susano'o was with Tsunade's chakra. And they were weaker Susano'o clones, too.



> and the tail strikes of the Biju.



The Bijuu are the creatures that make Bijuudama in the first place, so I have no clue why you're pretending this is unimpressive.



> Bijudama wipes it off the fricking map.



Bijuudama won't even blow through the ribcage. The Raikage's hand failed to do it, and it damaged the Hachibi deeper than Bijuudama did.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He had to immediately go _Perfect Susano'o_ to tank that Bijudama. And even then it was a _standard, uncharged_ one.
> 
> Lower level Susano'o are wiped off the map.



Read my post and enlighten yourself:



Nikushimi said:


> Yes; the most basic form of Susano'o is more durable than the Hachibi, who withstood a direct hit from Bijuudama. We know this because the Raikage chopped all the way through the Hachibi's horn, yet chopped only half-way through Sasuke's ribcage Susano'o. Assuming all the other layers of the Jutsu are just as durable, Susano'o should be able to endure a direct hit from Bijuudama rather comfortably.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 7, 2014)

Susano doesn't seem to have a set durability between users, and neither do bijuudamas between bijuu.  

So I really don't know.



> Yes; the most basic form of Susano'o is more durable than the Hachibi, who withstood a direct hit from Bijuudama.



The Hachibi regularly gets ripped apart by shuriken.  How did his tails survive a spirit bomb?


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## Blu-ray (Jan 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Didn't Kirin bust Itachi's Susanoo, and we should all be able to agree that Itachi needed his full Susanoo to weaken the damage dealt to him, as he said Susanoo. And note that when Itachi said that Susanoo was how he was able to survive he showed it in its final form instead of skeletal. Also Itachi was prepping Susanoo the entire time when Sasuke was talking and Itachi wasn't moving and had MS on so he should've been able to flash cast final Susanoo that way he would be able to block the attack without Sasuke being able to redirect the hit to somewhere weak on Susanoo.
> 
> Also note that against Nagato, Itachi didn't just flash his final Susanoo and impale Nagato, he had to transition his Susanoo through the stages before he used Final Susanoo. So thus Itachi had to flash activate Susanoo(not really since he was building it up while Sasuke was talking) to survive because as we all know there is no way ribcage or skeletal Susanoo would be able to block Kirin to an extent where Itachi can survive rather uninjured.
> 
> ...



We were never shown what form of Susano'o he used to block it, but if was even the complete form, Yata would have repelled it.  When he said he used this to survive, it was the skeletal Susann'o that was on panel.



Cryorex said:


> In regards to this level of Susano'o, they're all oblitereated by a Standard Bijuu Bomb.
> No contest, at most Itachi's Complete Susano'o could probably tank Rasen Shuriken and Mini Bijuu Dama because of Yata.
> The mountain busters rape, /thread.



Naturally. Whoever Final Susano'o can and has tanked a Bijuudama. Yata Mirror will allow Itachi to take one without any damage. He wouldn't even need Yata to take a Rasenshuriken or Mini Bijuudama.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Only Perfect Susano'o is strong enough to tank a standard Bijudama. Complete and Final Stage both get wiped off the map. Even Madara had to reform his Final Stage Susano'o around Kurama to have it survive the standard Bijudama.
> 
> Complete Stage Susano'o has been breached by Danzo's Futons, Tsunade's physical strength, A's and Onoki's combo, Onoki's Jinton,  and the tail strikes of the Biju. Bijudama wipes it off the fricking map.



Madara used his FInal Susano'o to tank it, so that is obviously not the case. He didn't reform anything. It was never destroyed. He simply wrapped it around Kurama so it wouldn't get K.O'd. 

Don't know how powerful Danzo's Fuuton's are in comparison with anything else. Same with A's combo. Jinton is an even more impressive attack than a Bijuudama, so there's no shame in getting obliterated by it.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Completely forgetting the power boost Naruto gave Sasuke there too in your little analysis, Krippy? The giant complete Susano'o enhanced by Senninka was also enhanced by Naruto's Version 1 shroud around him?
> 
> *Complete Susano'o has been pierced and destroyed by attacks far weaker than the Bijudama. Even Madara's Final Susano'o had to immediately shift to Perfect stage to tank the standard Bijudama from Kurama.*



The bold was never shown much less implied. It shifted to protect Kurama, not because it was incapable of withstanding the attack. Hashirama said as much.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 7, 2014)

Not a chance. A Complete Susanoo (As in the one that Sasuke used on Danzo) obviously isn't going to tank or survive a Bijuu Dama.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 7, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> We were never shown what form of Susano'o he used to block it, but if was even the complete form, Yata would have repelled it.  When he said he used this to survive, it was the skeletal Susann'o that was on panel.


You do realize when Susano'o reforms, it starts off with the first stage VolatileSoul? Yata Mirror was used to block but wasn't enough. Susano'o got breached.




> Naturally. Whoever Final Susano'o can and has tanked a Bijuudama. Yata Mirror will allow Itachi to take one without any damage. He wouldn't even need Yata to take a Rasenshuriken or Mini Bijuudama.


This is the dumbest most fanboyish statement ever. Itachi is NOT surviving attacks that are many times stronger than Kirin with Yata Mirror. Yata Mirror isn't strong enough to tank a Bijudama much less a Rasenshuriken. Only Perfect Susano'o is strong enough to tank a standard Bijudama.




> Madara used his FInal Susano'o to tank it, so that is obviously not the case. He didn't reform anything. It was never destroyed. He simply wrapped it around Kurama so it wouldn't get K.O'd.


No, he had to immediately level up his Susano'o to tank the explosion. He blocked it when Hashirama pushed it forward.

And you honestly believe Kurama would be KOed by his own attack?


> Don't know how powerful Danzo's Fuuton's are in comparison with anything else. Same with A's combo. Jinton is an even more impressive attack than a Bijuudama, so there's no shame in getting obliterated by it.


Jinton is far less powerful than a Bijudama, same with A's combo and Danzo's futon's. I don't know how you can claim differently considering Bijudama wipe out gigantic mountains without even being charged up. 




> The bold was never shown much less implied. It shifted to protect Kurama, not because it was incapable of withstanding the attack. Hashirama said as much.


It shifted to protect Madara, NOT Kurama. Hashirama said that Perfect Susano'o was used to protect Kurama _from Hashirama's own chakra absorption techniques_, NOT from his own Bijudama.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 7, 2014)

Of course not.

Onoki's Jinton: Genkai Hakuri completely obliterated Madara's Susano'o not once, not twice, but thrice. Don't listen to Nikushimi's lies. While it's not so clear in the first instance, we do see Susano'o surrounding Madara over here and after Onoki unleashes his Jinton beam on the forest (and its creator),  but its user also seems to have taken damage from something. What else could that 'something' be, other than the Jinton that the Tsuchikage fired?

From this information, we can deduce that Onoki's Jinton is at least capable of obliterating a v2 EMS Susano'o, while also dealing noticeable damage to the user of Susano'o in the process, even if said user is Uchiha Madara, a man who was durable enough to block hits from Ei and Base Tsunade as if they were nothing. We've also seen Onoki's Jinton obliterate Madara's Susano'o ribcage on-panel, and destroy all of Madara's Susano'o clones after being boosted by Tsunade. All of them in Susano'o v3 form, by the way.

According to Madara, only the tailed beasts are comparable to the Perfect Susano'o in terms of power, the same Perfect Susano'o that Madara labeled as being 'destruction incarnate'. If the absolute biggest and strongest form of Susano'o is still 'comparable' to the power of the tailed beasts, then how in blue blazes would a 'normal complete Susano'o', one which is like a hundred times smaller and weaker, possibly survive the Bijudama - _a tailed beast's strongest attack?_ I'm sorry, but there's no logic in what Nikushimi said.

But there's more. And this part is meant for you specifically, *Nikushimi:*

The fact that Madara said 'only the tailed beasts possess a power comparable' to his Perfect Susano'o's own, indicates that practically nothing else, to his knowledge, is anywhere as powerful as either Perfect Susano'o - or the tailed beasts - by proxy - be it Tsunade's strength, Mei's lava/acid, Ei's power after being enhanced by Onoki's Doton, or even Onoki's Jinton - _all of which Madara had witnessed long before he even made that statement. All of which, I may add, managed to damage or even destroy Susano'o on at least one occasion during the fight.
_
We've seen Gai's Hirudora bust Madara's regular-sized v3 Susano'o open and leave Madara out of an entire chapter, presumably still regenerating from his injuries. We've seen an Onoki-augmented Ei and Tsunade bust Susano'o open with brute force, and although this wasn't a complete v3 Susano'o, it's pretty obvious that NEITHER of those is anywhere as powerful as even the weakest Bijudama, which is most probably the one that KN4 Naruto used against Orochimaru, if you'd ask me.

KN4 Naruto's Bijudama completely VAPORIZED all three of Orochimaru's Kuchiyose: Sanjuu Rashomon barriers, with each one of them being around the same size as a boss summon or tailed beast. Do you see Tsunade possibly being strong enough to destroy all three of those gates with a single blow? Because last time I checked, Orochimaru used Sanjuu Rashomon specifically BECAUSE the Bijudama would've killed him otherwise, and _we've seen that even direct hits from Tsunade couldn't kill him at all._

Let's not even get into the power of the other tailed beasts' Bijudama. Even the weaker biju like Matatabi and Isobu were capable of blowing up mountains and potentially islands with their Bijudama, and only Onoki arguably has that much power, due to the hype of him being a potential island-buster with Jinton - and even that's debatable as many agree that it was just a bad translation than anything else. Tsunade and Ei don't even come close to destroying mountains, Ei couldn't even kill CS2 Juugo with his strength.

Kirin also managed to obliterate Itachi's Susano'o and destroy Itachi's Akatsuki robes in the process, and I'm pretty sure Itachi would've needed no less than a v3 Susano'o to survive a technique of that magnitude - Kirin, just like all the Bijudama variants, completely shits on anything that Ei or Tsunade has ever, EVER done in terms of destructive power. 

Also, Nikushimi? I thought it was obvious by now that Gyuki is just extremely vulnerable to cutting attacks in general? Even Minato's Hiraishin kunai and Obito's Kamui-warped fuma shuriken were capable of tearing through his tails like a hot knife through butter, does that somehow mean kunai and shuriken are deadlier than the Bijudama - a technique that is essentially 'destruction incarnate', an attack that can obliterate islands and mountains - in some way or other? I'm beginning to think you have issues, bro.

No, seriously. For you to believe something so stupid, you would have to be absolutely delusional if anything at all. Gyuki survived Son Goku's Flower Fruit Mountain and Saiken's Leech Gap, which are _basically biju-level versions of Mei's Yoton and Futton respectively_ - the same Yoton and Futton that canonically managed to damage Susano'o in its different forms. You should pay attention to the feat where Mei nearly turned that Susano'o clone's fist to a liquid goo, quite honestly. Stop underestimating Gyuki's durability, man.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 7, 2014)

And quantifiably, Kirin which destroyed Itachi's final Susano'o (given he had more than enough time to form it) is substantially weaker than:


Kirin (9 Megatons)
Futon: Rasenshuriken (53 Megatons)
KN6 Bijudama (87 Megatons)
Standard Bijudama (6 Gigatons)
Naruto's Bijudama (7.6 Teratons)


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## Enki (Jan 7, 2014)

A V3/Complete Susanoo would be obliterated by a standard Bijuudama. 

Final/V4 and PS/Stabilised are different stories though.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 7, 2014)

GreenDBM90 said:


> A V3/Complete Susanoo would be obliterated by a standard Bijuudama.
> 
> Final/V4 and PS/Stabilised are different stories though.


Unless the Final Stage is as large and powerful as Madara's, the other versions (Sasuke and Itachi) get destroyed outright. And still, Madara's V4 Susano'o had to immediately level up to Perfect Susano'o to block the explosion of a standard Bijudama.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 7, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do realize when Susano'o reforms, it starts off with the first stage VolatileSoul? Yata Mirror was used to block but wasn't enough. Susano'o got breached.



Contradiction much? Either Itachi blocked with the Yata Mirror or he couldn't because he could only start with the base form of Susano'o. Which is it?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 7, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Contradiction much? Either Itachi blocked with the Yata Mirror or he couldn't because he could only start with the base form of Susano'o. Which is it?


There's no contradiction. Itachi blocked it with Yata Mirror at the highest state of his Susano'o, but it was destroyed. Itachi reformed it afterwards to repair the damage.

And again, Kirin? Only 9 Megatons. Substantially weaker than the Futon: Rasenshuriken (53 Megatons) and standard Bijudama (6 gigatons).


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 7, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> There's no contradiction. Itachi blocked it with Yata Mirror at the highest state of his Susano'o, but it was destroyed. Itachi reformed it afterwards to repair the damage.
> 
> And again, Kirin? Only 9 Megatons. Substantially weaker than the Futon: Rasenshuriken (53 Megatons) and standard Bijudama (6 gigatons).



I could care less about calcs because they're ridiculously faulty based on so many uncertain variables. OBD may value that, but I'm pretty sure most people here do not. He didn't reform it to repair damage. The damage was already done. What do you consider reforming? Susano'o was destroyed entirely. What is the difference between forming and reforming? He's obviously used Susano'o before at some point in his life, so by that logic wouldn't the first time also count as reforming?

There's nothing that suggests that Susano'o has to go through the stages again when forming after being destroyed. When Sasuke attacked Danzo after being hit by his seal, he went to Stage 2 from the start and then evolved into Stage 3.

Furthermore, there's no proof that Itachi used the Yata Mirror or that he can even bring out the Yata Mirror that quickly from having no Susano'o. Because we see no Susano'o when he's looking straight at the bolt prior to it coming down. He activated it instantly. 

And even beyond that, there's absolutely no proof that Madara's unstabilized PS was destroyed. That is fanfiction. The Goubi (The thing that Hashi blocked with) survived it no problem, so unless the Goubi is stronger than unstabilized PS, Bijudama did nothing to it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 7, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> I could care less about calcs because they're ridiculously faulty based on so many uncertain variables. OBD may value that, but I'm pretty sure most people here do not. He didn't reform it to repair damage. The damage was already done. What do you consider reforming? Susano'o was destroyed entirely. What is the difference between forming and reforming? He's obviously used Susano'o before at some point in his life, so by that logic wouldn't the first time also count as reforming?


The calcs aren't faulty, its far better to use them than to just eyeball things. Kirin is weaker, that is canon.

And the damage meant that Kirin destroyed Susano'o. That means, Itachi had to reform his Susano'o from the ground up. 


> There's nothing that suggests that Susano'o has to go through the stages again when forming after being destroyed. When Sasuke attacked Danzo after being hit by his seal, he went to Stage 2 from the start and then evolved into Stage 3.


There is a lot to suggest Susano'o needs to be reformed after being destroyed and go through each stage. Sasuke's Susano'o wasn't destroyed then and he had to reform it to repair the damage Danzo had caused it, remember?


> Furthermore, there's no proof that Itachi used the Yata Mirror or that he can even bring out the Yata Mirror that quickly from having no Susano'o. Because we see no Susano'o when he's looking straight at the bolt prior to it coming down. He activated it instantly.


Yata Mirror is his best defense and Sasuke gave him more than enough time to form it. Why wouldn't Itachi use his best defense at that moment, Master Sephiroth?


> And even beyond that, there's absolutely no proof that Madara's unstabilized PS was destroyed. That is fanfiction. The Goubi (The thing that Hashi blocked with) survived it no problem, so unless the Goubi is stronger than unstabilized PS, Bijudama did nothing to it.


How is that fanfiction? To survive the Bijudama, Madara had to use Perfect Susano'o, not Final Stage Susano'o. And Gobi is a technique specifically made to shield Hashirama, and his Mokujin was destroyed by the Bijudama which is Final Stage Susano'o's equal.


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## Enki (Jan 7, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Unless the Final Stage is as large and powerful as Madara's, the other versions (Sasuke and Itachi) get destroyed outright.*And still, Madara's V4 Susano'o had to immediately level up to Perfect Susano'o to block the explosion of a standard Bijudama.*



Of course i'm referring to the Final Susanoo of Madara that dwarfs Kyuubi since Sasuke and Itachi hadn't showed a Susanoo of that size. 

The bolded isn't exactly true. It wasn't implied that V4 couldn't tank Bijuudama, Madara coated Susanoo around Kurama to protect him since the explosion could wound him (Gyuuki was wound by his Bijuudama and Kurama's is way stronger than that) and leveled up for tanking without risks (If i recall Sasuke coated V4 around Naruto's Avatar, so i assume Madara could do the same but opted for PS).

And even then Full PS wasn't used to block, rather an intermediary form like this. (notice the same mask/nose pattern?). Don't get me wrong, V4 would get damaged by a Bijuudama without a doubt and destroyed by a Super Bijuudama.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 7, 2014)

GreenDBM90 said:


> Of course i'm referring to the Final Susanoo of Madara that dwarfs Kyuubi since Sasuke and Itachi hadn't showed a Susanoo of that size.
> 
> The bolded isn't exactly true. It wasn't implied that V4 couldn't tank Bijuudama, Madara coated Susanoo around Kurama to protect him since the explosion could wound him (Gyuuki was wound by his Bijuudama and Kurama's is way stronger than that) and leveled up for tanking without risks (If i recall Sasuke coated V4 around Naruto's Avatar, so i assume Madara could do the same but opted for PS).
> 
> And even then Full PS wasn't used to block, rather an intermediary form like this. (notice the same mask/nose pattern?). Don't get me wrong, V4 would get damaged by a Bijuudama without a doubt and destroyed by a Super Bijuudama.


Sasuke coated Perfect Susano'o around Naruto's BSM, not Version 4. Madara's Version 4 doesn't 'dwarf' Kurama either, Kurama's tails are easily larger than it. 

All Madara managed to do is prevent a direct hit by blocking the caught standard Bijudama with his swords.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 7, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The calcs aren't faulty, its far better to use them than to just eyeball things. Kirin is weaker, that is canon.



No, it's not far better to use them. Comparing by feats>>>calculations. It's not just eyeballing. Calculations almost always based on uncertain values. 



> And the damage meant that Kirin destroyed Susano'o. That means, Itachi had to reform his Susano'o from the ground up.
> 
> There is a lot to suggest Susano'o needs to be reformed after being destroyed and go through each stage. Sasuke's Susano'o wasn't destroyed then and he had to reform it to repair the damage Danzo had caused it, remember?



There's a huge difference between repairing/reforming and making a new Susano'o entirely. What exactly suggests that Susano'o needs to be reformed after being destroyed? Susano'o is Chakra in its entirety. Once you expend that Chakra, it's gone. It's not like a Shadow Clone that if you release the Jutsu of your own volition, you get some of that Chakra back. If Susano'o gets damaged, it can be repaired with more Chakra. But if it's destroyed in its entirety, a whole new Susano'o construct is made. That's not a difficult concept to grasp, is it?



> Yata Mirror is his best defense and Sasuke gave him more than enough time to form it. Why wouldn't Itachi use his best defense at that moment, Master Sephiroth?



These are baseless assumptions. One, you're assuming that he can use the Yata Mirror instantly. We saw no Susano'o throughout the entire attack. that means that Susano'o did not come out until the bolt came down. And see Zetsu's explanation on how fast a lightning bolt strikes. We cannot assume Itachi can use the Yata Mirror out of the gate. 

And then, we cannot assume Itachi actually _did_ use the Yata Mirror. Danzo's Fuuton enhanced by Baku's suction (which dwarfed Susano'o mind you) only was able to open up layer of Stage 3 Susano'o. To date, this is the most powerful Fuuton we've seen except for Rasen-Shuriken and its variants. Kirin got through Susano'o and burned off Itachi's cloak. So the stage of Susano'o that he used has a limit of just below Kirin. So far, we don't have a durability limit for Stage 3 Susano'o. So it's possible he only had to go that far. 



> How is that fanfiction? To survive the Bijudama, Madara had to use Perfect Susano'o, not Final Stage Susano'o. And Gobi is a technique specifically made to shield Hashirama, and his Mokujin was destroyed by the Bijudama which is Final Stage Susano'o's equal.



Too many assumptions once again. You're assuming that Madara needed to use PS to survive it, which is not necessarily true. There are multiple variables involving him using Perfect Susano'o.

1: Hashirama pulled out Mokujin, so it's a natural response.
2: Madara keeping Kurama in tact so he could keep fighting against Hashirama.
3: Being safe with his defense. 

At maximum, Madara needed that level of Susano'o to survive. That doesn't necessarily mean he absolutely needed that level. 

And the final assumption is that Mokujin is Final Stage Susano'o's equal in durability. That isn't necessarily true either. How exactly are they equals btw?

Edit: So, let me ask you these simple questions:

1: Do you agree that CS Legged Susano'o = BSM Cloak in durability, considering they both suffered basically the same amount of damage from Juubito's slam?
2: If the above is yes, then realize that the BM cloak without Senjutsu took a low powered Juubidama laser with only damage to its tails. So do you believe that Kurama's Bijudama that destroyed Mokujin was stronger than the Juubidama laser?
3: If no, then do you believe that Sasuke's CS Legged Susano'o is more durable than Madara's unformed Perfect Susano'o?

Basically, if you believe that the Juubidama laser>Kurama's Bijudama and you believe Madara's unformed PS was destroyed, then you would also then have to believe that Legged Susano'o>Unformed PS in durability, despite being a full stage below it and being much smaller. 

By this logic, if Madara's unformed PS is more durable than Sasuke's legged Susano'o, then by transitive it should be able to take a low powered Juubidama laser, if it's more powerful than Kurama's Bijudama.


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## Enki (Jan 7, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sasuke coated Perfect Susano'o around Naruto's BSM, not Version 4. Madara's Version 4 doesn't 'dwarf' Kurama either, Kurama's tails are easily larger than it.
> 
> All Madara managed to do is prevent a direct hit by blocking the caught standard Bijudama with his swords.



Sasuke initially coated BSM with V4 and next he stabilised it (bottom left panel).

Madara's V4 actually is larger than Kurama. Only with his upper body (arms-head) it was taller than Kurama (no tails).

Going by this scan, Kurama's tails are around 2 times the height of Kurama's body.

V4's upper body is around 1/3 (or 1/4, we haven't got a full image of Legged V4 :/) the size of his full body.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 7, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> No, it's not far better to use them. Comparing by feats>>>calculations. It's not just eyeballing. Calculations almost always based on uncertain values.


You do realize the calcs are ON feats, right? The feats and calcs show that Kirin is weaker than Bijudama and Futon: Rasenshuriken. Yet you want to deny that so you can claim Yata Mirror's strong enough to block either, right?




> There's a huge difference between repairing/reforming and making a new Susano'o entirely. What exactly suggests that Susano'o needs to be reformed after being destroyed? Susano'o is Chakra in its entirety. Once you expend that Chakra, it's gone. It's not like a Shadow Clone that if you release the Jutsu of your own volition, you get some of that Chakra back. If Susano'o gets damaged, it can be repaired with more Chakra. But if it's destroyed in its entirety, a whole new Susano'o construct is made. That's not a difficult concept to grasp, is it?


Then why do Susano'o keep the damage even after leveling up? And why does said damage vanish after reforming it? 





> These are baseless assumptions. One, you're assuming that he can use the Yata Mirror instantly. We saw no Susano'o throughout the entire attack. that means that Susano'o did not come out until the bolt came down. And see Zetsu's explanation on how fast a lightning bolt strikes. We cannot assume Itachi can use the Yata Mirror out of the gate.


Though why wouldn't Itachi use his absolute best defense in that instant? And Zetsu's explanation failed to take account the significant amount of time that Sasuke gave Itachi to defend himself. 


> And then, we cannot assume Itachi actually _did_ use the Yata Mirror. Danzo's Fuuton enhanced by Baku's suction (which dwarfed Susano'o mind you) only was able to open up layer of Stage 3 Susano'o. To date, this is the most powerful Fuuton we've seen except for Rasen-Shuriken and its variants. Kirin got through Susano'o and burned off Itachi's cloak. So the stage of Susano'o that he used has a limit of just below Kirin. So far, we don't have a durability limit for Stage 3 Susano'o. So it's possible he only had to go that far.


Kirin absolutely makes Baku's Suction + Danzo's Futon look weak in comparison since it destroyed a small mountain. And again, why wouldn't Itachi bring out his best defense when his objective-sealing Orochimaru and removing the cursed seal hadn't been achieved?




> Too many assumptions once again. You're assuming that Madara needed to use PS to survive it, which is not necessarily true. There are multiple variables involving him using Perfect Susano'o.


Madara did need PS to survive it. You're assuming he didn't.


> 1: Hashirama pulled out Mokujin, so it's a natural response.


Mokujin was destroyed, not 'pulled out'. Hashirama blocked with Gobi no Jutsu which is a more sturdy defense.


> 2: Madara keeping Kurama in tact so he could keep fighting against Hashirama.


Kurama was in no danger of his Bijudama. Madara would know that, he's the only one who would be in danger of the explosion.


> 3: Being safe with his defense.


This is the most likely.


> At maximum, Madara needed that level of Susano'o to survive. That doesn't necessarily mean he absolutely needed that level.


Madara did need that level to survive. Otherwise Kishimoto would have shown Final Susano'o undamaged.


> And the final assumption is that Mokujin is Final Stage Susano'o's equal in durability. That isn't necessarily true either. How exactly are they equals btw?


Since they've been presented as equal techniques while Hashirama's in base, and when he's in Sage Mode its equal to Perfect Susano'o?



GreenDBM90 said:


> Sasuke initially coated BSM with V4 and next he stabilised it (bottom left panel).


He brought out stabilized Perfect Susano'o here. He wasn't using V4 at all, which is far too small to coat Kurama's body.


> Madara's V4 actually is larger than Kurama. Only with his upper body (arms-head) it was taller than Kurama (no tails).


Kurama's kind of _bending over there._


> Going by this scan, Kurama's tails are around 2 times the height of Kurama's body.


Again, Kurama's kind of bending over and not at his full height.


> V4's upper body is around 1/3 (or 1/4, we haven't got a full image of Legged V4 :/) the size of his full body.


Its kind of hard to tell. Some people have argued the size didn't grow, just the perspective changed.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 7, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do realize the calcs are ON feats, right? The feats and calcs show that Kirin is weaker than Bijudama and Futon: Rasenshuriken. Yet you want to deny that so you can claim Yata Mirror's strong enough to block either, right?



Yes, I realize how calculations are made. But that doesn't make them accurate by any stretch.



> Then why do Susano'o keep the damage even after leveling up? And why does said damage vanish after reforming it?



Explain and show scans please. 



> Though why wouldn't Itachi use his absolute best defense in that instant? And Zetsu's explanation failed to take account the significant amount of time that Sasuke gave Itachi to defend himself.



Once again, there's no proof he can use it immediately. You ignored what I said about there being no Susano'o until the bolt dropped.



> Kirin absolutely makes Baku's Suction + Danzo's Futon look weak in comparison since it destroyed a small mountain. And again, why wouldn't Itachi bring out his best defense when his objective-sealing Orochimaru and removing the cursed seal hadn't been achieved?



See above.



> Madara did need PS to survive it. You're assuming he didn't.



Nope, it's the other way around. I'm leaving things up to interpretation because there is a range of variables involved. You're the only one assuming here.



> Mokujin was destroyed, not 'pulled out'. Hashirama blocked with Gobi no Jutsu which is a more sturdy defense.



What I meant was that he made Mokujin to fight. So PS wasn't going to follow far behind anyway.



> Kurama was in no danger of his Bijudama. Madara would know that, he's the only one who would be in danger of the explosion.



That's not true in the least bit. 



> Madara did need that level to survive. Otherwise Kishimoto would have shown Final Susano'o undamaged.



Don't think for Kishimoto. The fight escalated ridiculously quickly to PS and Bijuu-Shurikens. There are other reasons why Madara would pull it out quickly from Kishi's standpoint.



> Since they've been presented as equal techniques while Hashirama's in base, and when he's in Sage Mode its equal to Perfect Susano'o?



But how does that speak for their durability? It's not like they're exactly the same. 

Anyway, once you've answered my questions that I edited into my post, then I can get to the meat of the argument here. I'll re-state.



> Edit: So, let me ask you these simple questions:
> 
> 1: Do you agree that CS Legged Susano'o = BSM Cloak in durability, considering they both suffered basically the same amount of damage from Juubito's slam?
> 2: If the above is yes, then realize that the BM cloak without Senjutsu took a low powered Juubidama laser with only damage to its tails. So do you believe that Kurama's Bijudama that destroyed Mokujin was stronger than the Juubidama laser?
> ...


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## Enki (Jan 7, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12;49440281 He brought out stabilized Perfect Susano'o here. He wasn't using V4 at all said:
			
		

> That wasn't PS, there wasn't a diamond in the forehead and those teeth were the ones of V3.
> And then in the next chap it shows Sasuke's V4 stabilising (notice the jagged teeth or what the hell these things are that are the same as here)
> 
> Uhm, V4 cannot be too small because PS is basically stabilizing the chakra of an already existing Susanoo. In fact, Madara's PS's height didn't seem to change from his Legged V4.
> ...


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## ueharakk (Jan 7, 2014)

*Can a susanoo of that level survive the impact and explosion of at least one tbb?

1) If yes, then do you think it can survive multiple tbbs? 
2) If no, then what is the most powerful attack a susanoo of that level can survive?*

The answer is simple:

1) HELL NO 
and
2) maybe FRS

First off, that susanoo that sasuke used against danzou was blown open *by a fuuton that's not even on the same level as a FRS.*  A standard TBB is on a totally different level of power than a standard FRS which is on another level than danzou's attack.  There's no way that any susanoo below Sasuke's bijuu-sized ones are surviving a direct hit from a TBB.

I gotta ask, what is the strongest attack that non-bijuu sized susanoo has even survived?  Sasuke's V3 was blown open by danzous fuuton, his skeletals were melted by mei's acid, Madara's was busted open by oonoki and ei's punch, and *sasuke was forced to level up his ribcage to survive this attack?* 

Also, slicing through the hachibi's limbs or horns means jack squat about damaging the main body  as seen by the *hachibi's face surviving the juubi's TBB without even losing blood despite its horns getting blown off.*  So no, Ei is not slicing through the hachibi justl like Sandaime raikage only managed to slice through the beast's tails and not the beast itself.  Not only that but when bee was hit by the dama, we don't even see how much damage it actually did to the part of him that it hit so the very assertion that the bijuudama didn't penetrate bee can't even be claimed, let alone cutting through the hachibi's horn = cutting through the main body.

With the whole bijuudama vs bee argument, you'd have to necessarily conclude that a single FRS is not only way more powerful than a bijuudama, but will kill any bijuu that's weaker than bee since the juubi's tails take a direct hit from bee's dama plus many other powerful slicing attacks yet don't get penetrated, yet a single FRS from naruto cuts right through them.

Finally, *this TBB* is most likely what it would take to break through *susanoo boosted by the uchiha fan.*

So in conclusion, no, MS Susanoos have no chance of tanking a TBB. getting vaporized and allowing the MS user to survive is a _generous _ claim that can only be made for the weakest of bombs we've seen.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 7, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Yes, I realize how calculations are made. But that doesn't make them accurate by any stretch.


Why wouldn't they be accurate at all? You seem just to want to deny them since it makes Susano'o's best defensive feat weak compared to other techniques out there.




> Explain and show scans please.


Damage Susano'o takes here is retained here.

When reformed, said damage is gone.


> Once again, there's no proof he can use it immediately. You ignored what I said about there being no Susano'o until the bolt dropped.


Itachi can partially form his Susano'o, can't he? All he'd have to do is partially form the arm and the Yata Mirror on it. And you ignore that Itachi would need his best defense.




> Nope, it's the other way around. I'm leaving things up to interpretation because there is a range of variables involved. You're the only one assuming here.


You do know that interpretations can be wrong, right? If Kishimoto wanted to show that level of Susano'o was strong enough to defend against the standard Bijudama, he would have shown it. Instead, Susano'o is leveled up and equipped to Kurama.




> What I meant was that he made Mokujin to fight. So PS wasn't going to follow far behind anyway.


Ah, I see.




> That's not true in the least bit.


You honestly believe Kurama would be damaged by his own attack when even Gyuki could survive his own Bijudama?




> Don't think for Kishimoto. The fight escalated ridiculously quickly to PS and Bijuu-Shurikens. There are other reasons why Madara would pull it out quickly from Kishi's standpoint.


Kishimoto shows that a technique is strong enough to block another by keeping it up. Instead, he has Madara's level up to survive. Hell he did it before at the Kage Summit with Sasuke leveling up his Susano'o from the ribcage to V2 to survive the barrage.



> 1: Do you agree that CS Legged Susano'o = BSM Cloak in durability, considering they both suffered basically the same amount of damage from Juubito's slam?


No since that version of Susano'o was also amped up by Naruto himself. Sasuke had the Version 1 Cloak Naruto gave him on him the entire fight, said Complete Susano'o was far larger than any other, and finally it wasn't via Sasuke's own power.


> 2: If the above is yes, then realize that the BM cloak without Senjutsu took a low powered Juubidama laser with only damage to its tails. So do you believe that Kurama's Bijudama that destroyed Mokujin was stronger than the Juubidama laser?
> 3: If no, then do you believe that Sasuke's CS Legged Susano'o is more durable than Madara's unformed Perfect Susano'o?


No to both since you fail to even acknowledge Naruto powered Sasuke up greatly.


> Basically, if you believe that the Juubidama laser>Kurama's Bijudama and you believe Madara's unformed PS was destroyed, then you would also then have to believe that Legged Susano'o>Unformed PS in durability, despite being a full stage below it and being much smaller.
> 
> By this logic, if Madara's unformed PS is more durable than Sasuke's legged Susano'o, then by transitive it should be able to take a low powered Juubidama laser, if it's more powerful than Kurama's Bijudama.


Your logic is faulty, not just because it uses A>B>C logic, but because you ignore that *SASUKE GOT POWERED UP BY NARUTO BEFORE HE EVEN GOT THE SENJUTSU CHAKRA FROM JUGO.* Sasuke's Legged Susano'o there was far stronger than anything he could have made on his own. Naruto powered him up. Jugo powered him up. It wasn't his own power. And even then, Naruto was still in Sage Mode after the smash while Sasuke was out of his techniques and barely conscious.



GreenDBM90 said:


> That wasn't PS, there wasn't a diamond in the forehead and those teeth were the ones of V3.


That is a tengu mask that formed. Tengu masks are a trait of the Perfect Susano'o, not Version 3 which Sasuke has.


> And then in the next chap it shows Sasuke's V4 stabilising (notice the jagged teeth or what the hell these things are that are the same as here)


You do realize you just posted why that couldn't be Sasuke's Version 4 since Sasuke's Version 4 was too small?


> Uhm, V4 cannot be too small because PS is basically stabilizing the chakra of an already existing Susanoo. In fact, Madara's PS's height didn't seem to change from his Legged V4.


Sasuke's Version 4 is the size of Kurama's head. Its way too small to coat his entire body. Madara's Version 4 is gigantic in comparison.


> And plus Sasuke already showed bigger Susanoos, aka Bijuu sized V3 (the biggest V3 ever seen on panel).


Which is only made due to Naruto powering him up. Why is this fact constantly ignored?



> Kurama on two legs is around the size of his tails. IIRC this panel was used to scale Kurama to 300 meters on two legs. I did that too and the result was around the same.


Kurama is bent over and not at his full height here.


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## Krippy (Jan 7, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Completely forgetting the power boost Naruto gave Sasuke there too in your little analysis, Krippy? The giant complete Susano'o enhanced by Senninka was also enhanced by Naruto's Version 1 shroud around him?



Nope. Sasuke didn't have the plot cloak in the chapter where they got bodyslammed. It clearly made no difference towards the outcome.



> Complete Susano'o has been pierced and destroyed by attacks far weaker than the Bijudama.



The only attack that breeched a completed Susano'o was a combo attack from danzo used on a MS Sasuke who was still developing his powers.



> Even Madara's Final Susano'o had to immediately shift to Perfect stage to tank the standard Bijudama from Kurama.



The only reason Kurama was armored was to protect it from Mokuton surpression.


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## Enki (Jan 7, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That is a tengu mask that formed. Tengu masks are a trait of the Perfect Susano'o, not Version 3 which Sasuke has.
> 
> You do realize you just posted why that couldn't be Sasuke's Version 4 since Sasuke's Version 4 was too small?
> 
> ...



There's no Tengu Mask and no forehead diamond there, Sauce's PS's tengu mask is this. And plus those teeth were the one of V3.

You do realize someone can expand his Susanoo? Sasuke made a V2 (one rib is nearly as tall as him, if not taller) even bigger than Madara's.

Underlined is an assumption. Sasuke already showed the ability to expand his Susanoo and he used Susanoo multiple times, fighted againts Kabuto and the Juubi/Juubito, not looking remotely exhausted until he used PS. Why are you asserting he can't do that despite feats saying otherwise?

And your point is...? I already showed that Madara's V4 is taller than Kurama, even on two legs.

I'm going to answer again tomorrow.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 7, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why wouldn't they be accurate at all? You seem just to want to deny them since it makes Susano'o's best defensive feat weak compared to other techniques out there.



Nope. It's because there are uncertain variables in the calculations. There are very few instances in the manga where we are actually given certain information that can be used in a calculation. And even then, it's almost always missing another variable. Like Senpo FRS crossing x distance in a full second when he threw it at Deva Path. We don't have an accurate reading on the distance, so the speed cannot be measured accurately. You can try to measure the aspect ratio but that doesn't cover perspective difference.



> Damage Susano'o takes here is retained here.
> 
> When reformed, said damage is gone.



Do you understand why that is? It's not because it's reformed. It's because it's a completely new Susano'o made off completely new Chakra output from Sasuke.



> Itachi can partially form his Susano'o, can't he? All he'd have to do is partially form the arm and the Yata Mirror on it. And you ignore that Itachi would need his best defense.



Can he do that with the Yata Mirror? I don't know. Itachi did say if he hadn't used Susano'o he would have died, so he used some form of Susano'o, not just the Yata Mirror with the arm.

I'm not ignoring anything. It didn't necessarily take his best defense to survive. Once again, that's up to interpretation. If Itachi's or Sasuke's MS Stage 3 Susano'o were destroyed by something weaker than Kirin, we'd have a definitive limit for Stage 3. But since we don't, it's possible that he only needed Stage 3. That can not be proven or disproven, just like the Yata Mirror instance.



> You do know that interpretations can be wrong, right? If Kishimoto wanted to show that level of Susano'o was strong enough to defend against the standard Bijudama, he would have shown it. Instead, Susano'o is leveled up and equipped to Kurama.



Madara did actually need unformed Perfect Susano'o likely, but that's not the reason why. 



> You honestly believe Kurama would be damaged by his own attack when even Gyuki could survive his own Bijudama?



Kurama's Bijudama>Gyuki's Bijudama. He was damaged by his own Bijudama, so I don't get why Kurama also wouldn't be. 



> Kishimoto shows that a technique is strong enough to block another by keeping it up. Instead, he has Madara's level up to survive. Hell he did it before at the Kage Summit with Sasuke leveling up his Susano'o from the ribcage to V2 to survive the barrage.



Madara didn't level up to survive. He took the Bijudama as unformed Perfect Susano'o, and after the blast formed to fully formed and surrounded Kurama as armor. 



> No since that version of Susano'o was also amped up by Naruto himself. Sasuke had the Version 1 Cloak Naruto gave him on him the entire fight, said Complete Susano'o was far larger than any other, and finally it wasn't via Sasuke's own power.



Nope. The cloak was gone after CS came in. The important part is when he got grabbed, and I don't see a cloak, do you? That level of Legged Susano'o Sasuke can do on his own. He didn't even use up his cloak making that Susano'o in the first place, so it's obviously his own power. He just used up the cloak while attacking with the Susano'o. What this means is that it was never used to amp up Susano'o, but only used to increase his stamina. 



> No to both since you fail to even acknowledge Naruto powered Sasuke up greatly.



Oh please. Are you that biased that you can't acknowledge the facts about Sasuke? Sasuke's cloak was gone, and he used it up while using Susano'o, not making it. 



> Your logic is faulty, not just because it uses A>B>C logic, but because you ignore that *SASUKE GOT POWERED UP BY NARUTO BEFORE HE EVEN GOT THE SENJUTSU CHAKRA FROM JUGO.* Sasuke's Legged Susano'o there was far stronger than anything he could have made on his own. Naruto powered him up. Jugo powered him up. It wasn't his own power. And even then, Naruto was still in Sage Mode after the smash while Sasuke was out of his techniques and barely conscious.



Oh, come on. Stop the fanfiction. Sasuke was just as conscious as Naruto was. The fact that Naruto was still in Sage Mode means that is even less durable since Sage Mode makes his body more durable. And yet he and Sasuke suffered basically the same amount of damage on their body. If Sasuke was barely conscious, he wouldn't have gotten up just after Naruto and used Perfect Susano'o in tandem with BSM.

So let me ask you a different line of questioning, going by your thinking.

So BSM Cloak = Sasuke's CS Legged Susano'o amped by V1 Cloak according to you. 

If that's the case, then BM Cloak = Sasuke's Legged Susano'o amped by V1 Cloak if we take out the Senjutsu upgrades. And that's being generous because CS is weaker Senjutsu than a full Sage Mode.

If BM Cloak can take a Juubidama laser (albeit a low powered one), (ABC logic does work here, because this is straight impact and concussive durability here) then Sasuke's Legged Susano'o amped by V1 Cloak should be able to take the Juubidama laser with damage to the outer layer similar to BM Cloak's tails being damaged.

If that's true, then do you believe that the V1 Cloak Naruto gave Sasuke makes Sasuke's Stage 4 Susano'o more durable than Madara Stage 5 (Unformed Perfect Susano'o)? 

If your answer is yes, then by how much do you believe it's more durable? And then once you answer that, how much stronger do you believe the Juubidama laser is than Kurama's Bijudama that destroyed Mokujin?

If your answer is no, then you concede to the fact that Madara's Stage 5 Susano'o can tank BOTH Kurama's and the Juubidama laser that BM Naruto tanked.

I'll make it slightly easier for you and just tell you that I don't believe for a second that Madara's Stage 5 is inferior in any way to Sasuke's Stage 4, even if it was amplified by Kurama's Chakra. Stage 5 is at least twice the size BM Cloak/Sasuke's Legged Susano'o, as its close to Kurama's 100% size.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 7, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Nope. It's because there are uncertain variables in the calculations. There are very few instances in the manga where we are actually given certain information that can be used in a calculation. And even then, it's almost always missing another variable. Like Senpo FRS crossing x distance in a full second when he threw it at Deva Path. We don't have an accurate reading on the distance, so the speed cannot be measured accurately. You can try to measure the aspect ratio but that doesn't cover perspective difference.


You do realize we get accurate sizes of distances, right? You're just throwing it out since you don't like them at all.




> Do you understand why that is? It's not because it's reformed. It's because it's a completely new Susano'o made off completely new Chakra output from Sasuke.


Reforming =/= new Susano'o in this instance. Damage is still retained and needs an entirely new Susano'o formed.




> Can he do that with the Yata Mirror? I don't know. Itachi did say if he hadn't used Susano'o he would have died, so he used some form of Susano'o, not just the Yata Mirror with the arm.


Why couldn't he do it? Why are you putting limitations that way?


> I'm not ignoring anything. It didn't necessarily take his best defense to survive. Once again, that's up to interpretation. If Itachi's or Sasuke's MS Stage 3 Susano'o were destroyed by something weaker than Kirin, we'd have a definitive limit for Stage 3. But since we don't, it's possible that he only needed Stage 3. That can not be proven or disproven, just like the Yata Mirror instance.


Stage 3 isn't strong enough and you know it. He would have to have the highest level to survive.




> Madara did actually need unformed Perfect Susano'o likely, but that's not the reason why.


Madara had to level up his Susano'o to survive.




> Kurama's Bijudama>Gyuki's Bijudama. He was damaged by his own Bijudama, so I don't get why Kurama also wouldn't be.


Since Kurama is far more durable and far stronger than Gyuki? Kurama's Bijudama wouldn't have even dented him. And guess what, Gyuki only receded back into Bee due to exhaustion.




> Madara didn't level up to survive. He took the Bijudama as unformed Perfect Susano'o, and after the blast formed to fully formed and surrounded Kurama as armor.


If he didn't need to level up, he wouldn't have done so. Its not the first time Kishimoto has done it.




> Nope. The cloak was gone after CS came in. The important part is when he got grabbed, and I don't see a cloak, do you? That level of Legged Susano'o Sasuke can do on his own. He didn't even use up his cloak making that Susano'o in the first place, so it's obviously his own power. He just used up the cloak while attacking with the Susano'o. What this means is that it was never used to amp up Susano'o, but only used to increase his stamina.


That's an art error. In every other panel, Sasuke had the cloak. Why would it disappear anyway? Sasuke needed the cloak to create the 118 meter Susano'o. Cloak is here, here, here, here, here, in almost every scene he has the cloak. And if it vanished, his Susano'o would have shrank. We see a non-Naruto powered up Senjutsu V3 Susano'o anyway with Madara and its no where near Sasuke's powered up size.




> Oh please. Are you that biased that you can't acknowledge the facts about Sasuke? Sasuke's cloak was gone, and he used it up while using Susano'o, not making it.


WHY WOULD THE CLOAK DISAPPEAR? Are you so bias you can't acknowledge Naruto powered him up? Everyone still has the cloak. Why would Sasuke lack his? You cite one art error to prove he doesn't when that doesn't make any lick of sense. Naruto had already fucking giving him chakra. Where did it go if it disappear? Why didn't his Susano'o shrink like everyone else? 




> Oh, come on. Stop the fanfiction. Sasuke was just as conscious as Naruto was. The fact that Naruto was still in Sage Mode means that is even less durable since Sage Mode makes his body more durable. And yet he and Sasuke suffered basically the same amount of damage on their body. If Sasuke was barely conscious, he wouldn't have gotten up just after Naruto and used Perfect Susano'o in tandem with BSM.


Sasuke was barely conscious and was struggling to get back to his feet. His Susano'o cushioned the blow but he was still less able to recover than Naruto.



> So BSM Cloak = Sasuke's CS Legged Susano'o amped by V1 Cloak according to you.


More like BSM Cloak >>> Sasuke CS Legged Susano'o amped up by V1 cloak. Obito's attack was just so strong both constructs were destroyed.


> If that's the case, then BM Cloak = Sasuke's Legged Susano'o amped by V1 Cloak if we take out the Senjutsu upgrades. And that's being generous because CS is weaker Senjutsu than a full Sage Mode.


No, not at all. You're claiming they're equal when their feats aren't.


> If BM Cloak can take a Juubidama laser (albeit a low powered one), (ABC logic does work here, because this is straight impact and concussive durability here) then Sasuke's Legged Susano'o amped by V1 Cloak should be able to take the Juubidama laser with damage to the outer layer similar to BM Cloak's tails being damaged.


1. Why would the Jyubi's laser be 'low powered' when Madara and Obito changed their strategy to kill Naruto and Bee?
2. Sasuke's Legged Susano'o doesn't have the defensive feats, so no.



> If that's true, then do you believe that the V1 Cloak Naruto gave Sasuke makes Sasuke's Stage 4 Susano'o more durable than Madara Stage 5 (Unformed Perfect Susano'o)?
> 
> If your answer is yes, then by how much do you believe it's more durable? And then once you answer that, how much stronger do you believe the Juubidama laser is than Kurama's Bijudama that destroyed Mokujin?
> 
> ...


You're making assumptions that Sasuke's amped up Susano'o is even the same durability and power tier as Biju Mode.



GreenDBM90 said:


> There's no Tengu Mask and no forehead diamond there, Sauce's PS's tengu mask is this. And plus those teeth were the one of V3.


PS has the Tengu Mask as you can see here.


> You do realize someone can expand his Susanoo? Sasuke made a V2 (one rib is nearly as tall as him, if not taller) even bigger than Madara's.


Those are some baldfaced lies. Sasuke's Susano'o is the same size as Madara's there. He's never shown the ability-NO Susano'o user has, to create constructs the size of Biju on their own.


> Underlined is an assumption. Sasuke already showed the ability to expand his Susanoo and he used Susanoo multiple times, fighted againts Kabuto and the Juubi/Juubito, not looking remotely exhausted until he used PS. Why are you asserting he can't do that despite feats saying otherwise?
> How is it an assumption? Everyone who gets the cloak is powered up. And Sasuke's never 'expanded' his Susano'o. And even if he did, its no where to the degree we saw with Naruto's cloak.
> 
> Without Naruto's chakra, like everyone else, Sasuke's Susano'o (like Hinata's Hakke Kusho or Kakashi's Kamui) would have been much smaller and less powerful.
> ...


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 7, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do realize we get accurate sizes of distances, right? You're just throwing it out since you don't like them at all.



When understanding the fact that perspective can change everything, you can't always get accurate readings on size and distance. 



> Reforming =/= new Susano'o in this instance. Damage is still retained and needs an entirely new Susano'o formed.



In the second example, Sasuke had long since stopped using Susano'o against Gaara and collapsing the area. Then he used it against Mei, which was an entirely new Susano'o. That's not difficult to grasp. 



> Why couldn't he do it? Why are you putting limitations that way?



I don't know if he could or couldn't, and neither do you.



> Stage 3 isn't strong enough and you know it. He would have to have the highest level to survive.
> 
> Madara had to level up his Susano'o to survive.



Since you added nothing to the discussion and have failed to prove anything, this is moot.



> Since Kurama is far more durable and far stronger than Gyuki? Kurama's Bijudama wouldn't have even dented him. And guess what, Gyuki only receded back into Bee due to exhaustion.



Kurama is more durable than Gyuki, but his Bijudama is also stronger than Gyuki's.



> If he didn't need to level up, he wouldn't have done so. Its not the first time Kishimoto has done it.



So Madara needed to level up when he first showcased Perfect Susano'o to the five kages? That's horseshit.



> That's an art error. In every other panel, Sasuke had the cloak. Why would it disappear anyway? Sasuke needed the cloak to create the 118 meter Susano'o. Cloak is here, here, here, here, here, in almost every scene he has the cloak. And if it vanished, his Susano'o would have shrank. We see a non-Naruto powered up Senjutsu V3 Susano'o anyway with Madara and its no where near Sasuke's powered up size.



It's not an art error. It was gone from the last page you posted. Where do you see the cloak on this page? How about here? Even here (the black is the CS mind you, the lighter color is Susano'o). Here?

YUP DEF ART MISTAKE 



> WHY WOULD THE CLOAK DISAPPEAR? Are you so bias you can't acknowledge Naruto powered him up? Everyone still has the cloak. Why would Sasuke lack his? You cite one art error to prove he doesn't when that doesn't make any lick of sense. Naruto had already fucking giving him chakra. Where did it go if it disappear? Why didn't his Susano'o shrink like everyone else?



Bro, I'm not even a Sasuke fanboy. I'm a Kakashi fan first and foremost, and Sasuke isn't anywhere near my top 10. 

Kakashi also lost his cloak after he used Kamui in tandem with Obito's Kamui to suck them both into the Kamui dimension. His Susano'o didn't shrink because he did not use Kurama's Chakra to amp it, obviously.  He used it as extra stamina obviously.



> Sasuke was barely conscious and was struggling to get back to his feet. His Susano'o cushioned the blow but he was still less able to recover than Naruto.



Both of them struggled to get on their feet. Just because Sasuke got up after Naruto means fuck all. 



> More like BSM Cloak >>> Sasuke CS Legged Susano'o amped up by V1 cloak. Obito's attack was just so strong both constructs were destroyed.



Alright, I honestly don't like doing this, but I'm pulling the fanboy card here. It's clear as day that you're being incredibly biased saying that. Both attacks were destroyed, and both of them suffered pretty much the exact same damage. Juubito's slam was not going to arbitrarily get rid of Naruto's Senjutsu. Chakra doesn't work like that and Senjutsu most certainly doesn't either. Neither just randomly disappear just because the person took a big hit.



> No, not at all. You're claiming they're equal when their feats aren't.



Their Senjutsu enhanced feats are equal, so reasonably without Senjutsu it should be the same thing.



> 1. Why would the Jyubi's laser be 'low powered' when Madara and Obito changed their strategy to kill Naruto and Bee?



Because the feats for that laser pale in comparison to the ones that it later used. This was when the Juubi first came out and hadn't had time to power up.



> 2. Sasuke's Legged Susano'o doesn't have the defensive feats, so no.



It does, due to Juubito's attack.



> You're making assumptions that Sasuke's amped up Susano'o is even the same durability and power tier as Biju Mode.



Why would it not be, if their Senjutsu enhanced versions were the same durability? You can choose to keep refusing that fact, but the panels don't lie. It shows the same damage on both of them.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 7, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> When understanding the fact that perspective can change everything, you can't always get accurate readings on size and distance.


Except we have only one perspective on most. Again, you just want Kirin to be stronger or as strong as Bijudama, right?




> In the second example, Sasuke had long since stopped using Susano'o against Gaara and collapsing the area. Then he used it against Mei, which was an entirely new Susano'o. That's not difficult to grasp.


Its still the same thing. If a Susano'o has damage, the only way to repair said damage is basically a new Susano'o.




> I don't know if he could or couldn't, and neither do you.


Given Danzo's Futons, Mei's Yoton and Futton, Tsunade's physical strength, etc. have pierced and damaged V3 Susano'o, Kirin is more powerful than all of that...?




> Since you added nothing to the discussion and have failed to prove anything, this is moot.


Other than the fact its something Kishimoto normally does?




> Kurama is more durable than Gyuki, but his Bijudama is also stronger than Gyuki's.


 Actually, Kurama's Bijudama there was just as powerful as the other Biju. Thus it wouldn't have damaged him.




> So Madara needed to level up when he first showcased Perfect Susano'o to the five kages? That's horseshit.


Two different instances. Madara needed to level up to survive the Bijudama, Madara was showing off to the Kages to show them how screwed they were.




> It's not an art error. It was gone from the last page you posted. Where do you see the cloak on this page? How about here? Even here (the black is the CS mind you, the lighter color is Susano'o). Here?
> 
> YUP DEF ART MISTAKE


You do realize the last link has Sasuke _with the cloak_ on, right? And again, why would he lose the cloak? Everyone else still has it active, and why wouldn't Sasuke get a power up from wearing it?




> Bro, I'm not even a Sasuke fanboy. I'm a Kakashi fan first and foremost, and Sasuke isn't anywhere near my top 10.
> 
> Kakashi also lost his cloak after he used Kamui in tandem with Obito's Kamui to suck them both into the Kamui dimension. His Susano'o didn't shrink because he did not use Kurama's Chakra to amp it, obviously.  He used it as extra stamina obviously.


So I assume Hinata can do Jyubi Tail Tossing Hakke Kusho's without Naruto's cloak right? Sasuke got a powerup like everyone else. Said powerup was used to make his Susano'o larger and stronger. We've seen that before the cloak, Sasuke's Susano'o could fit on Aoba's head. Afterwards, its as strong as the Biju Mode construct Naruto makes. Its so damn obvious there's no point to denying it.




> Both of them struggled to get on their feet. Just because Sasuke got up after Naruto means fuck all.


Naruto got up first, still powered up by his Sage Mode. Sasuke was nearly out of it. It just shows Naruto can recover faster.




> Alright, I honestly don't like doing this, but I'm pulling the fanboy card here. It's clear as day that you're being incredibly biased saying that. Both attacks were destroyed, and both of them suffered pretty much the exact same damage. Juubito's slam was not going to arbitrarily get rid of Naruto's Senjutsu. Chakra doesn't work like that and Senjutsu most certainly doesn't either. Neither just randomly disappear just because the person took a big hit.


Except we see a superior Senjutsu Susano'o, Madara's, be _pinned and destroyed_ by Naruto's and the other Biju's tails. Sasuke's had an inferior form of Senjutsu, was powered up by Naruto then, and guess what? Given those two factors it means Sasuke's defense wasn't on the same level of what Naruto could do or take.




> Their Senjutsu enhanced feats are equal, so reasonably without Senjutsu it should be the same thing.


No, they aren't. Sasuke's Senjutsu enhancement is _canonically inferior to actual Sage Mode._ They fire the same attack (Bijudama for Naruto and Arrow for Sasuke) at Obito's defense, Naruto's Senjutsu-enhanced Bijudama was the technique that broke through (given Obito had acknowledged him and not Sasuke). 




> Because the feats for that laser pale in comparison to the ones that it later used. This was when the Juubi first came out and hadn't had time to power up.


The Jyubidama Laser plowed through several mountains without trouble. It also defeated *nine* Renkozu Bijudama (all mountain busters) without even slowing down. There's nothing to suggest it was weak.




> It does, due to Juubito's attack.


Not at all. Obito's attack is strong enough to crush both chakra constructs. But it doesn't mean they are equal in defense or offense. Take a Dragon Ball Z example: Goku is in Super Saiyan 3 and Vegeta in Super Saiyan 2. Both are knocked out at the same time by Bills/Janemba/Hildegarn. Does that mean Super Saiyan 3 = Super Saiyan 2? 



> Why would it not be, if their Senjutsu enhanced versions were the same durability? You can choose to keep refusing that fact, but the panels don't lie. It shows the same damage on both of them.


Since Cursed Seal is inferior to Sage Mode canonically?


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 7, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Nope. It's because there are uncertain variables in the calculations. There are very few instances in the manga where we are actually given certain information that can be used in a calculation. And even then, it's almost always missing another variable. Like Senpo FRS crossing x distance in a full second when he threw it at Deva Path. We don't have an accurate reading on the distance, so the speed cannot be measured accurately. You can try to measure the aspect ratio but that doesn't cover perspective difference.


Your grasping for straws. Even if you deny the fact, you think Itachi's skeletal Susanoo block Kirin...my bad he didn't use Susanoo because we never seen Susanoo until "AFTER" Kirin hit.





> Do you understand why that is? It's not because it's reformed. It's because it's a completely new Susano'o made off completely new Chakra output from Sasuke.


 Sasuke had already activated Susanoo before that scenario.





> > Can he do that with the Yata Mirror? I don't know. Itachi did say if he hadn't used Susano'o he would have died, so he used some form of Susano'o, not just the Yata Mirror with the arm.
> 
> 
> Yea he prepped and was forming Susanoo preemptive to Kirin falling, his MS was active in both eyes at the same time, he had plenty of time while Sasuke was forming Kirin.
> ...


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 7, 2014)

I think this level of susanoo[1] should be capable of tanking a standard TBB. That level has shield/armor/flesh/bones for defense and I am almost certain it's durability is superior to the Hachibi's stomach area.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 7, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> I think this level of susanoo[1] should be capable of tanking a standard TBB. That level has shield/armor/flesh/bones for defense and I am almost certain it's durability is superior to the Hachibi's stomach area.


Not from feats. You're just making assumptions. Level 4 Susano'o isn't strong enough. The only character with a Susano'o strong enough is Madara's and his has to be in the Perfect state.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 7, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except we have only one perspective on most. Again, you just want Kirin to be stronger or as strong as Bijudama, right?



Don't straw man my arguments. Nowhere did I say anything about Kirin being stronger or as strong as Bijudama. And also, it depends on the Bijudama. Any Bijudama from Kurama>Kirin. That much I believe. The others are quite debatable.



> Its still the same thing. If a Susano'o has damage, the only way to repair said damage is basically a new Susano'o.



So what makes a new Susano'o different from a new Susano'o when one first starts using it? For instance, what makes a new Susano'o from Itachi after Kirin any different from the new Susano'o he used to block Kirin in the first place? 



> Given Danzo's Futons, Mei's Yoton and Futton, Tsunade's physical strength, etc. have pierced and damaged V3 Susano'o, Kirin is more powerful than all of that...?



Tsunade's punches did nothing to Stage 3 Susano'o. Where did Futton do damage to Stage 3 and when did Yoton ever do said damage?



> Other than the fact its something Kishimoto normally does?



No, you're only arguing your opinion at this point.



> Actually, Kurama's Bijudama there was just as powerful as the other Biju. Thus it wouldn't have damaged him.



Based on what?



> Two different instances. Madara needed to level up to survive the Bijudama, Madara was showing off to the Kages to show them how screwed they were.



You said that if he didn't need to level up he wouldn't have done so. Why not, if he leveled up when he absolutely didn't need to against the Kages? I understand his reasoning for doing so against them, but that invalidates the fact that he always levels up because he needs to. So therefore, there's no indication that he needed to level up to survive the Bijudama.



> You do realize the last link has Sasuke _with the cloak_ on, right? And again, why would he lose the cloak? Everyone else still has it active, and why wouldn't Sasuke get a power up from wearing it?



He doesn't have it, and I'm not saying he couldn't get a power up, but it's not as if he used it to amplify his power. Or maybe he did. I don't think it matters too much.



> So I assume Hinata can do Jyubi Tail Tossing Hakke Kusho's without Naruto's cloak right? Sasuke got a powerup like everyone else. Said powerup was used to make his Susano'o larger and stronger. We've seen that before the cloak, Sasuke's Susano'o could fit on Aoba's head. Afterwards, its as strong as the Biju Mode construct Naruto makes. Its so damn obvious there's no point to denying it.



If it was used to make Susano'o larger and stronger, then the cloak would have disappeared right away. He gradually used the cloak's Chakra until around when the CS came in. 

And Sasuke was never going all out against Kabuto. Are you saying his Perfect Susano'o is the result of Kurama's Chakra as well? Because you'd be wrong about that too.



> Naruto got up first, still powered up by his Sage Mode. Sasuke was nearly out of it. It just shows Naruto can recover faster.



With Senjutsu, of course he can recover faster. And of course, with Kurama's healing factor. 



> Except we see a superior Senjutsu Susano'o, Madara's, be _pinned and destroyed_ by Naruto's and the other Biju's tails. Sasuke's had an inferior form of Senjutsu, was powered up by Naruto then, and guess what? Given those two factors it means Sasuke's defense wasn't on the same level of what Naruto could do or take.



Except Madara's Susano'o was not bigger than Sasuke's, and is canonically less durable. But the major point of the matter is that even if Sasuke's Susano'o was amplified by Kurama's Chakra, it posed the same durability that the BSM cloak did. 



> No, they aren't. Sasuke's Senjutsu enhancement is _canonically inferior to actual Sage Mode._ They fire the same attack (Bijudama for Naruto and Arrow for Sasuke) at Obito's defense, Naruto's Senjutsu-enhanced Bijudama was the technique that broke through (given Obito had acknowledged him and not Sasuke).



Uh...the Bijudama is a more powerful attack than a Susano'o Arrow. And the context of the debate is durability. I'm not trying to say EMS Sasuke = BM Naruto here. 



> The Jyubidama Laser plowed through several mountains without trouble. It also defeated *nine* Renkozu Bijudama (all mountain busters) without even slowing down. There's nothing to suggest it was weak.



Noone said it was weak. But it was low power for the Juubi's standards. 



> Not at all. Obito's attack is strong enough to crush both chakra constructs. But it doesn't mean they are equal in defense or offense. Take a Dragon Ball Z example: Goku is in Super Saiyan 3 and Vegeta in Super Saiyan 2. Both are knocked out at the same time by Bills/Janemba/Hildegarn. Does that mean Super Saiyan 3 = Super Saiyan 2?



I'm not going to bring DBZ into this, but yes this absolutely tells us that they were both equal in durability here. Think of it this way. If a Bijudama hit Itachi and Sasuke at the same time, Itachi might survive it with his complete Susano'o, but then Sasuke will definitively survive it with Perfect Susano'o. For arguments sake, let's say both Susano'o are destroyed. Itachi will be much more damaged than Sasuke, because more of the force was absorbed by Perfect Susano'o before it was destroyed whereas it would have taken much less to get through Itachi's Susano'o and so the rest would harm him more. Make sense?

So in this case, Juubito's attack was able to not only break the durability of their cloak/susano'o, but it also damaged them as well. And the damage they both came out with were roughly the same, hence the durability there was basically equal.



> Since Cursed Seal is inferior to Sage Mode canonically?



That just means that Susano'o needed less of a boost to be equal to the cloak. 



IchLiebe said:


> Your grasping for straws. Even if you deny the fact, you think Itachi's skeletal Susanoo block Kirin...my bad he didn't use Susanoo because we never seen Susanoo until "AFTER" Kirin hit. Sasuke had already activated Susanoo before that scenario.



Strawman. I didn't assert that Itachi used any form of Susano'o. I believe it would have been Stage 3 (the same level as Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow) or Stage 4. Which one of the two is up for interpretation, because we haven't seen a durability limit on Stage 3 or 4.



> Yea he prepped and was forming Susanoo preemptive to Kirin falling, his MS was active in both eyes at the same time, he had plenty of time while Sasuke was forming Kirin.



Yeah, he prepped Susano'o, but nothing was visibly shown until after the bolt came down.



> Are you fucking serious?
> 
> Itachi's Stage three is able to throw Magatamas
> 
> ...



You should be reading the conversation more carefully or don't get involved. I haven't used a single bit of hype in my arguments.

Didn't say Stage 3 couldn't use the Yata Mirror. Didn't say he didn't need the Yata Mirror either.



> And Madara knew the capabilities of bijuu dama, Itachi had no idea how powerful Kirin really was this was his first time of knowing about it and seeing it.



Two different arguments, two different people as well.



> It takes chakra to form Susanoo. Don't you find it odd Sasuke needed more chakra then he had to access a new lower level form of Susanoo?



Not sure what you mean. 



> Sage Mode has never been shown to enhance durability, only regenerative properties or atleast that is what Madara commented on. Jiraiya also had his his arm ripped off and impaled while Naruto was also impaled, I see no feats that suggest that SM enhances durability, the only hint we have of it is when Naruto fell into a bunch of spikes. Ill agree that it does but very little and negligible when compared to Susanoo.



Well, you answered your own argument. It was shown and stated that SM enhances durability and increases regenerative properties.

By the way, the point of that argument was that because Sasuke and Naruto ended up in the same position damage wise, the BSM Cloak and CS Susano'o (possibly enhanced by Kurama's Chakra) had the same durability, or if anything helped Sasuke more because of the above about Sage Mode. Sasuke himself was not donning the Curse Seal so his own body's durability was not increased. 



> Different mechanics involved doesn't compare sorry but A>B>C isn't sound logic.



A>B>C logic isn't sound only when there are matchup problems and different properties. For instance, it would be fallacious to say Hebi Sasuke>Kakashi and Naruto just because Sasuke forced Deidara to suicide and the other two didn't. Obviously that was totally matchup based because of Raiton and Genjutsu and blah blah blah. However, it would not be fallacious to say that KM Naruto>MS Sasuke in speed because Naruto outsped A who outsped Sasuke. Because the conditions were the same, the A>B>C logic works. We're comparing Bijudama feats here, which are the same conditions. If Madara's Unformed Perfect Susano'o is more durable than Sasuke's Stage 4 with a possible Kurama power up, then I maintain that Unformed Perfect Susano'o can also tank the Juubidama laser that BM Naruto did. 



> Sasuke is rather fresh, and Naruto has been fighting for DAYS against top-tier - God tier opponents and it isn't that far fetched to think that his chakra output from Kurama enchances his durability.



It's not out of the question that Sasuke's CS Susano'o was being amplified by Kurama's Chakra. But IMO it's not relevant to my point.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Don't straw man my arguments. Nowhere did I say anything about Kirin being stronger or as strong as Bijudama. And also, it depends on the Bijudama. Any Bijudama from Kurama>Kirin. That much I believe. The others are quite debatable.


The other's aren't quite debatable. Even the Bijudama from lesser Biju, uncharged, _completely vaporize mountains_ and leave eight to ten kilometer wide craters. That's far stronger than what Kirin, which only destroyed a hollowed out small mountain, can do.




> So what makes a new Susano'o different from a new Susano'o when one first starts using it? For instance, what makes a new Susano'o from Itachi after Kirin any different from the new Susano'o he used to block Kirin in the first place?


There is no difference. Its just the damage that Susano'o took before is gone.




> Tsunade's punches did nothing to Stage 3 Susano'o. Where did Futton do damage to Stage 3 and when did Yoton ever do said damage?


Tsunade's punches flat out decimated a Stage 3 Susano'o and it was unable to recover from the hit. Futton could damage Stage 2 and there's no reason why Stage 3 is invulnerable to it, and right here Mei's Yoton damages a Stage 3 Susano'o.




> No, you're only arguing your opinion at this point.


No. Remember during the Kage Summit, Sasuke had to level up to Stage 2 to survive the barrage? Its the same thing when Madara's Stage 4 leveled up to Perfect Form to survive the Bijudama off panel.




> Based on what?


Same damage area and blast radius. Hell none of the Bijudama Kurama lobbed at the Valley of the End were at his full potential due to Madara's inability to make him use the more powerful types.




> You said that if he didn't need to level up he wouldn't have done so. Why not, if he leveled up when he absolutely didn't need to against the Kages? I understand his reasoning for doing so against them, but that invalidates the fact that he always levels up because he needs to. So therefore, there's no indication that he needed to level up to survive the Bijudama.


Since those are two entirely different scenarios! I mean dear god, one had a FUCKING BIJUDAMA EXPLODING IN HIS FACE, the other had the Gokage's will breaking just at the sight of Madara's Stage 4. Then he levels up his Perfect Susano'o _to show the Gokage its futile to fight him_. Are you HONESTLY this dishonest that you can't see the fucking difference?




> He doesn't have it, and I'm not saying he couldn't get a power up, but it's not as if he used it to amplify his power. Or maybe he did. I don't think it matters too much.


He had it until Obito smashed him and Naruto down. And it matters since Naruto explicitly powered him up like every fricking one.




> If it was used to make Susano'o larger and stronger, then the cloak would have disappeared right away. He gradually used the cloak's Chakra until around when the CS came in.


That doesn't make any fucking sense. Naruto's cloak powered him up as well as Jugo. He had the cloak on him in every single page of that fight. You even linked the cloak claiming he didn't have it then. 

He got powered up. Deal with it. Its a side effect of the Version 1 cloak. Everyone who has it (as was established in 616-618) gets a power up.


> And Sasuke was never going all out against Kabuto.


Not just against Kabuto. Reread 631-637, Sasuke's Susano'o when going all out was tiny.


> Are you saying his Perfect Susano'o is the result of Kurama's Chakra as well? Because you'd be wrong about that too.


No, that's legitimately under his own power since by then, due to Obito smashing him and Naruto to the ground, he had lost the cloak.

Without the cloak though, his legged Stage 3 Susano'o would be much smaller and weaker. THAT is what I was saying.



> With Senjutsu, of course he can recover faster. And of course, with Kurama's healing factor.


And Naruto's durability in Sage Mode is also increased, remember? Since Sasuke didn't even have an actual Cursed Seal, his durability wasn't increased.




> Except Madara's Susano'o was not bigger than Sasuke's, and is canonically less durable. But the major point of the matter is that even if Sasuke's Susano'o was amplified by Kurama's Chakra, it posed the same durability that the BSM cloak did.


The only thing Madara lacked there was the chakra cloak Naruto gave Sasuke. Otherwise, he had a superior Senjutsu (actual Sage Mode) making his Stage 3 Susano'o stronger. 

And no, it didn't. Just having them fall at the same time doesn't mean they are the same durability or power. 


> Uh...the Bijudama is a more powerful attack than a Susano'o Arrow. And the context of the debate is durability. I'm not trying to say EMS Sasuke = BM Naruto here.


Except that Sasuke's amped up CS Version 1 Cloak Susano'o isn't as durable. It hasn't gone through the same tests that Naruto's Biju Mode has. 

If Obito slammed Shinsusenju and Perfect Susano'o at the same time and obliterated both, they wouldn't have the same durability since we've seen what both taken.


> Noone said it was weak. But it was low power for the Juubi's standards.


Fair enough. But its still an attack from the Jyubi and only Naruto has a feat of tanking one of its bloodlusted attacks.




> I'm not going to bring DBZ into this, but yes this absolutely tells us that they were both equal in durability here. Think of it this way. If a Bijudama hit Itachi and Sasuke at the same time, Itachi might survive it with his complete Susano'o, but then Sasuke will definitively survive it with Perfect Susano'o. For arguments sake, let's say both Susano'o are destroyed. Itachi will be much more damaged than Sasuke, because more of the force was absorbed by Perfect Susano'o before it was destroyed whereas it would have taken much less to get through Itachi's Susano'o and so the rest would harm him more. Make sense?
> 
> So in this case, Juubito's attack was able to not only break the durability of their cloak/susano'o, but it also damaged them as well. And the damage they both came out with were roughly the same, hence the durability there was basically equal.


Fair enough. But even then, Sasuke still needed Naruto's and Jugo's help to survive that so he wasn't doing it on his own. That's the argument here now. 

I doubt that version of Susano'o would survive the Jyubi's Bijudama too considering things. 




> That just means that Susano'o needed less of a boost to be equal to the cloak.


No, it needed more of a boost. It needed a Version 1 cloak from Naruto to increase its size and power (like every other shinobi) and needed Jugo's poor man's Sage Mode to give it another boost.

Far weaker and smaller without.


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Jan 8, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The other's aren't quite debatable. Even the Bijudama from lesser Biju, uncharged, _completely vaporize mountains_ and leave eight to ten kilometer wide craters. That's far stronger than what Kirin, which only destroyed a hollowed out small mountain, can do.



Don't mistake AoE for power. AoE is an indicator of power when comparing two things of comparable mechanics, like a Bijudama against Deidara's C3 which both do explosive damage. However, it is not the case when comparing two different types of attacks. Bijudama and Kirin are large scale attacks comparable to Rasengan and Chidori. And no, I'm not saying Kirin = Bijudama or even that Kirin>Bijudama. What I am saying is that the AoE is not indicative of a superior power when comparing the two. 



> There is no difference. Its just the damage that Susano'o took before is gone.



Great. Back to the original point then. If there's no difference, why does Susano'o have to start from the first stage if initially it can start from a higher stage when there's no difference?



> Tsunade's punches flat out decimated a Stage 3 Susano'o and it was unable to recover from the hit. Futton could damage Stage 2 and there's no reason why Stage 3 is invulnerable to it, and right here Mei's Yoton damages a Stage 3 Susano'o.



That is Madara's Stage 2 Susano'o. Tsunade's only punch against Stage 3 Susano'o did no visible damage, only grounded it (When it was 5 vs 1 Mokuton Susano'o clones). Stage 3 has legs. Tsunade's original punch only cracked Ribcage Susano'o when fresh. Jinton is literally the only thing we've seen that has destroyed that level of Susano'o except for obviously Juubito getting rid of a more powerful version.



> No. Remember during the Kage Summit, Sasuke had to level up to Stage 2 to survive the barrage? Its the same thing when Madara's Stage 4 leveled up to Perfect Form to survive the Bijudama off panel.



I don't understand how one proves the other. Madara's Susano'o survived the Bijudama as it was, and then coated Kurama with the armor so that Hashirama couldn't take Kurama, which is exactly what Hashirama did after he broke Susano'o with Shinsuusenju.



> Same damage area and blast radius. Hell none of the Bijudama Kurama lobbed at the Valley of the End were at his full potential due to Madara's inability to make him use the more powerful types.



His uncharged Bijudama poses a better blast radius as a regular Bijuu's charged one. This one was bigger than a mountain and the mountains there were huge compared to normal mountains.



> Since those are two entirely different scenarios! I mean dear god, one had a FUCKING BIJUDAMA EXPLODING IN HIS FACE, the other had the Gokage's will breaking just at the sight of Madara's Stage 4. Then he levels up his Perfect Susano'o _to show the Gokage its futile to fight him_. Are you HONESTLY this dishonest that you can't see the fucking difference?



I already acknowledged the differences in the scenarios. But what you've failed to acknowledge is that Madara didn't necessarily level up his Perfect Susano'o during the explosion. It's only your own assumption that he needed to level up to survive it. 



> He had it until Obito smashed him and Naruto down. And it matters since Naruto explicitly powered him up like every fricking one.



If you understand the crux of the argument, it really doesn't matter. See below.



> That doesn't make any fucking sense. Naruto's cloak powered him up as well as Jugo. He had the cloak on him in every single page of that fight. You even linked the cloak claiming he didn't have it then.



No, he didn't have the cloak in every single page. That's bullshit and you know it. There are blatant pages with him completely missing it.



> He got powered up. Deal with it. Its a side effect of the Version 1 cloak. Everyone who has it (as was established in 616-618) gets a power up.



At this point it doesn't matter if he did or didn't, because the real crux of the argument is about Madara.



> Not just against Kabuto. Reread 631-637, Sasuke's Susano'o when going all out was tiny.



Oh, so he was going all out by not using legged Susano'o and Perfect Susano'o. Gotcha. 



> Without the cloak though, his legged Stage 3 Susano'o would be much smaller and weaker. THAT is what I was saying.



Gotcha.



> And Naruto's durability in Sage Mode is also increased, remember? Since Sasuke didn't even have an actual Cursed Seal, his durability wasn't increased.



Yep.



> And no, it didn't. Just having them fall at the same time doesn't mean they are the same durability or power.



That's not why they had the same durability.



> Except that Sasuke's amped up CS Version 1 Cloak Susano'o isn't as durable. It hasn't gone through the same tests that Naruto's Biju Mode has.



Except that it had the exact same durability feat as BSM Naruto, so it was.



> If Obito slammed Shinsusenju and Perfect Susano'o at the same time and obliterated both, they wouldn't have the same durability since we've seen what both taken.



Not a good example, because Hashirama would not be protected by Shinsuusenju. If he slammed PS and the Goubi down at the same time, and Madara and Hashirama sustained the same amount of damage on their bodies, then we would be able to call the PS and Goubi durability roughly equal.



> Fair enough. But its still an attack from the Jyubi and only Naruto has a feat of tanking one of its bloodlusted attacks.



Yep.



> Fair enough. But even then, Sasuke still needed Naruto's and Jugo's help to survive that so he wasn't doing it on his own. That's the argument here now.



That's not my argument. I have no vendetta against Naruto nor a means to hype up Sasuke lol. My concern here was Madara and then the Itachi thing got covered basically.



> I doubt that version of Susano'o would survive the Jyubi's Bijudama too considering things.



Considering what things, exactly? If both the amped CS Susano'o and BSM Cloak had the same durability limit and we take away the Senjutsu, why wouldn't amped Susano'o be able to tank the laser with some damage to some layers?



> No, it needed more of a boost. It needed a Version 1 cloak from Naruto to increase its size and power (like every other shinobi) and needed Jugo's poor man's Sage Mode to give it another boost.
> 
> Far weaker and smaller without.



You're missing my point though. If you have two people, one person bruises easily and the other doesn't, and they both sustain the same amount of bruises on their body, who actually took a harder hit? Obviously the guy that doesn't bruise easily, because it takes a harder hit in order to bruise him the same as the guy who is easily bruised. Get it? Since Naruto and Sasuke sustained about the same damage, the guy with Sage Mode would have taken the harder hit, wouldn't you agree?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Don't mistake AoE for power. AoE is an indicator of power when comparing two things of comparable mechanics, like a Bijudama against Deidara's C3 which both do explosive damage. However, it is not the case when comparing two different types of attacks. Bijudama and Kirin are large scale attacks comparable to Rasengan and Chidori. And no, I'm not saying Kirin = Bijudama or even that Kirin>Bijudama. What I am saying is that the AoE is not indicative of a superior power when comparing the two.


Its not just greater AOE. We have a technique that literally destroys a giant mountain and leaves nothing behind. Another destroys a hollowed out small mountain. 

The only Bijudama that is inferior to Kirin is KN4's anyway.


> Great. Back to the original point then. If there's no difference, why does Susano'o have to start from the first stage if initially it can start from a higher stage when there's no difference?


Due to Kishimoto's way of showing off Susano'o I suppose. He gave Itachi more than enough time to form at least Version 3 Susano'o (which he can do pretty much instantly) and given that it can form and maintain Yata Mirror at that stage, pretty clear at least to me that Itachi used that to defend himself.




> That is Madara's Stage 2 Susano'o. Tsunade's only punch against Stage 3 Susano'o did no visible damage, only grounded it (When it was 5 vs 1 Mokuton Susano'o clones). Stage 3 has legs. Tsunade's original punch only cracked Ribcage Susano'o when fresh. Jinton is literally the only thing we've seen that has destroyed that level of Susano'o except for obviously Juubito getting rid of a more powerful version.


Um I think you're confusing the stages. Complete Stage or Stage 3 can have legs or not. Madara's Complete Stage has the skin covering it with the ribcage not fully visible. How do you know that Susano'o wasn't damaged? It didn't recover from the punch and Tsunade was breaking through the same chakra Susano'o uses through the swords with ease.  




> I don't understand how one proves the other. Madara's Susano'o survived the Bijudama as it was, and then coated Kurama with the armor so that Hashirama couldn't take Kurama, which is exactly what Hashirama did after he broke Susano'o with Shinsuusenju.


Kishimoto has a habit of showing that if a defense isn't strong enough, it either breaks or levels up. Madara had to level up his Susano'o to survive the Bijudama, and he gets to coat Kurama as a plus for added firepower. 




> His uncharged Bijudama poses a better blast radius as a regular Bijuu's charged one. This one was bigger than a mountain and the mountains there were huge compared to normal mountains.


Not really. We've seen what the other Biju's Bijudama's have done from that perspective and were the same thing. Seen and felt kilometers away.



> I already acknowledged the differences in the scenarios. But what you've failed to acknowledge is that Madara didn't necessarily level up his Perfect Susano'o during the explosion. It's only your own assumption that he needed to level up to survive it.


Well the Sasuke example and others kind of lend me to believe Madara needed to level up to survive the Bijudama. 




> No, he didn't have the cloak in every single page. That's bullshit and you know it. There are blatant pages with him completely missing it.


Kishimoto is inconsistent with the artwork. He made it obvious Naruto powered Sasuke up with the giant Susano'o and didn't bother to draw it in other panels since it was unneeded. What happened to Sasuke is no different than anyone else with the cloak.




> At this point it doesn't matter if he did or didn't, because the real crux of the argument is about Madara.


And Madara with a Senjutsu Complete Stage (Stage 3) Susano'o is much smaller without Naruto's cloak and was pounded to oblivion by just the Biju's physical strength.




> Oh, so he was going all out by not using legged Susano'o and Perfect Susano'o. Gotcha.


He couldn't achieve Perfect Susano'o or legged Susano'o until later. He was attacking with the intent to kill throughout all those chapters. 

Look, if Sasuke makes a giant Susano'o _without_ Naruto's cloak in the next few chapters, you'll be right. But if he doesn't?



> That's not why they had the same durability.


They both took a powerful attack that would have obliterated any defense.




> Except that it had the exact same durability feat as BSM Naruto, so it was.


...any defensive technique in that scenario would have been crushed though. 




> Not a good example, because Hashirama would not be protected by Shinsuusenju. If he slammed PS and the Goubi down at the same time, and Madara and Hashirama sustained the same amount of damage on their bodies, then we would be able to call the PS and Goubi durability roughly equal.


Didn't Hashirama be protected by the Bijudama spam by Madara with his Shinsusenju?




> That's not my argument. I have no vendetta against Naruto nor a means to hype up Sasuke lol. My concern here was Madara and then the Itachi thing got covered basically.


Well Madara and Itachi don't have the feats to survive a standard Bijudama in Complete Stage.




> Considering what things, exactly? If both the amped CS Susano'o and BSM Cloak had the same durability limit and we take away the Senjutsu, why wouldn't amped Susano'o be able to tank the laser with some damage to some layers?


Since Obito's slam would have destroyed _any_ defense in the manga, due to the velocity and the depth of the crater he made. 




> You're missing my point though. If you have two people, one person bruises easily and the other doesn't, and they both sustain the same amount of bruises on their body, who actually took a harder hit? Obviously the guy that doesn't bruise easily, because it takes a harder hit in order to bruise him the same as the guy who is easily bruised. Get it? Since Naruto and Sasuke sustained about the same damage, the guy with Sage Mode would have taken the harder hit, wouldn't you agree?


Alright, that does make a bit of sense.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 8, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And quantifiably, Kirin which destroyed Itachi's final Susano'o (given he had more than enough time to form it)



You don't know that. I know you don't know that because when Itachi activated Susano'o isn't shown and neither is the actual Jutsu.

You're talking completely out of your ass.



> is substantially weaker than:
> 
> 
> Kirin (9 Megatons)
> ...



Okay, I'm going to list the problems with this and I want you to actually read them:

1. These are fan calculations; they are based on comparisons between panels in a manga with a history of demonstrably inconsistent artwork/scaling.

2. Fan calcs are always changing, and the OBD in particular can't decide which ones are accepted or outdated half the time.

*3. These numbers denote total explosive yield, not how much force actually hits the target.*

4. Kirin is not an explosive attack.

5. You didn't even cite where you got these numbers from; for all anyone knows, you made them up, or just saw them thrown around by some random OBDer.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The Hachibi regularly gets ripped apart by shuriken.



I've only seen standard shuriken damage the Hachibi once, and they only embedded an inch or two into its skin.



> How did his tails survive a spirit bomb?



The Hachibi is really durable, apparently.


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## Ersa (Jan 8, 2014)

Kamui shruiken can't be compared to normal shruiken, the size and speed of them actually make them lethal.

Also SSM12, Itachi could not have used final Susanoo to defend against Kirin.

Kirin approaches, we can see the dot that's Itachi. No V3 Susanoo in sight. Zetsu states Kirin is Mach 100+ *[1]*

It didn't look like Itachi had Susanoo even when Sasuke dropped his hand, thus he must of had to make it as Kirin dropped. *[2]*

Itachi forms his Susanoo through stages, he hasn't shown the capacity to instantly bring up V4 Susanoo, he can instantly bring up V3 Susanoo however. The best case you could argue for is that it was V3 Susanoo with the Yata's Mirror which makes no sense as you don't claim an object is invincible after it got busted. Juubito didn't claim Rikudo's sword was invinicible after Naruto smashed it did he?

For all we now it could have been ribcage, personally V3 alone seems the most likely to me. Sasuke's Susanoo takes time to conjure the bow even after V3 forms, Yata's Mirror has to be conjured as well. Given his limited time he went for the fastest Susanoo he had, thus V3 without Yata seems appropriate. Claiming it was full Susanoo with Yata's Mirror has little more factual basis then claiming it was ribcage for all intents and purposes. Especially since Itachi's ribcage has never been busted


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 8, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Its not just greater AOE. We have a technique that literally destroys a giant mountain and leaves nothing behind. Another destroys a hollowed out small mountain.



If Kirin were as big as a mountain it would also destroy the whole thing. Both techniques have done raw destruction on what the AoE could hit. Even the rest of what Kirin didn't hit got blown away too in the mountain. That doesn't mean Kirin was inferior, it means it affects less area, that's it. 



> Due to Kishimoto's way of showing off Susano'o I suppose. He gave Itachi more than enough time to form at least Version 3 Susano'o (which he can do pretty much instantly) and given that it can form and maintain Yata Mirror at that stage, pretty clear at least to me that Itachi used that to defend himself.



Okay, Stage 3 is not his final form of Susano'o, which is not his strongest defense. Stage 3 is likely, more likely than Stage 4.



> Um I think you're confusing the stages. Complete Stage or Stage 3 can have legs or not. Madara's Complete Stage has the skin covering it with the ribcage not fully visible. How do you know that Susano'o wasn't damaged? It didn't recover from the punch and Tsunade was breaking through the same chakra Susano'o uses through the swords with ease.



Stage 1 = Ribcage, Stage 2 = Ribcage showing with one layer of Susano'o covering it. Stage 3 = no ribcage showing. Stage 4 = Unformed Perfect Susano'o, and then Perfect Susano'o. That's how I see it, at least, for Madara. We haven't seen that extra bit of armor that we saw on Itachi and Sasuke's final stage of MS Susano'o. So that seems like the easiest way to name the stages. Tsunade's punch did no visible damage (we don't see any damage done) and it got up not long after that. 



> Kishimoto has a habit of showing that if a defense isn't strong enough, it either breaks or levels up. Madara had to level up his Susano'o to survive the Bijudama, and he gets to coat Kurama as a plus for added firepower.



That's only one way of thinking. What if the defense IS strong enough? It can still level up. Sasuke's defense was more than enough for Danzo's attacks at the time but still leveled up to Stage 3 with the Susano'o Arrows. He also leveled up into Stage 4 without any type of battle purpose. Itachi didn't need the Yata Mirror to block the explosive tags, but he used it so that Zetsu could explain what the Yata Mirror was (speaking strictly about plot). There are other reasons for leveling up plot wise that don't involve it being inadequate. Perfect Susano'o is not just a defense. It is also a powerful offense. You're only looking at one aspect of PS.



> Not really. We've seen what the other Biju's Bijudama's have done from that perspective and were the same thing. Seen and felt kilometers away.



Tsunade's original punch only cracked Ribcage Susano'o when fresh

The Bijudamas were hardly any bigger than the mountains next to them. As I already showed, Kurama's Bijudama was bigger than a mountain at VOTE which dwarfed even Kurama, who was about the size of a Konoha mountain.



> Well the Sasuke example and others kind of lend me to believe Madara needed to level up to survive the Bijudama.



The situations were much different though, just like the difference between Madara at VOTE and at the 5 Kages.



> Kishimoto is inconsistent with the artwork. He made it obvious Naruto powered Sasuke up with the giant Susano'o and didn't bother to draw it in other panels since it was unneeded. What happened to Sasuke is no different than anyone else with the cloak.



I'll agree just to drop this point, since it's irrelevant to my actual argument.



> And Madara with a Senjutsu Complete Stage (Stage 3) Susano'o is much smaller without Naruto's cloak and was pounded to oblivion by just the Biju's physical strength.



Don't act like that wasn't more of a strength feat than a durability failure. It obviously means that the Bijuus are physically powerful (hell, Chapter 1 hyped Kurama to be a mountain buster with its tail swipes alone).



> He couldn't achieve Perfect Susano'o or legged Susano'o until later. He was attacking with the intent to kill throughout all those chapters.



Intent to kill ≠ going all out. Sasuke doesn't fight that way. You don't know if he could or couldn't achieve it at that point.



> Look, if Sasuke makes a giant Susano'o _without_ Naruto's cloak in the next few chapters, you'll be right. But if he doesn't?



The next time he makes a legged Susano'o, we'll see for sure.



> They both took a powerful attack that would have obliterated any defense.
> 
> ...any defensive technique in that scenario would have been crushed though.



I've made the point very obvious, but I guess I'll have to re-state below.



> Didn't Hashirama be protected by the Bijudama spam by Madara with his Shinsusenju?



Well, he was standing on its head before and after the attack so your guess is as good as mine.



> Well Madara and Itachi don't have the feats to survive a standard Bijudama in Complete Stage.



The only reason that is, is because we have nothing to compare Final Form Susano'o's defense to. If we did, we would be able to get a more accurate read on Itachi's MS Susano'o's limits at the very least. 



> Since Obito's slam would have destroyed _any_ defense in the manga, due to the velocity and the depth of the crater he made.



What do you think would happen if Obito used that slam on ribcage Susano'o Sasuke? He would have died, right? Why? Because his defense wasn't strong enough to absorb most of the blow. The only reason both of them are alive from that attack is because of their defense. Get it? Just because it can destroy every defense in the manga thus far doesn't mean that it's going to leave everyone in the same shape. Sasuke and Naruto received the same amount of damage, which means that their defenses absorbed roughly the same amount of the force so that they would survive the attack.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 8, 2014)

Most definitely and pretty casually.

Probably gets one or 2 layers stripped in the process depending on the size and strength of it.



Kyokan said:


> Kamui shruiken can't be compared to normal shruiken, the size and speed of them actually make them lethal.
> 
> Also SSM12, Itachi could not have used final Susanoo to defend against Kirin.
> 
> ...



Yeah it has to be one of the stages which are manifested almost instantly.

Ribcage is instant, V2 is a bit slower I presume.

But the fact that Itachi had partial V2 activated after he got up, I'd definitely say that it was V2.


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## Ersa (Jan 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Most definitely and pretty casually.
> 
> Probably gets one or 2 layers stripped in the process depending on the size and strength of it.
> 
> ...


V3 is nigh-instant too if we look at the SM Kabuto fight. I think muscular is the more likely then skeletal Susanoo simply because Kirin is a mountain buster and we should use higher forms to avoid outliers.

One thing for certain was it was not V4 as Itachi can't make V4 in an instant and I'm going to say Kishimoto is not retarded (the man wrote good shit in Part I) and he wouldn't have made Madara's claim Yata is unbreakable after Kirin busted it nor put that into the DB so Yata is out of the question.

People claiming Yata was busted really don't give Kishimoto enough credit as a intelligent human being.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 8, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> V3 is nigh-instant too if we look at the SM Kabuto fight. I think muscular is the more likely then skeletal Susanoo simply because Kirin is a mountain buster and we should use higher forms to avoid outliers.
> 
> One thing for certain was it was not V4 as Itachi can't make V4 in an instant and I'm going to say Kishimoto is not retarded (the man wrote good shit in Part I) and he wouldn't have made Madara's claim Yata is unbreakable after Kirin busted it nor put that into the DB so Yata is out of the question.
> 
> People claiming Yata was busted really don't give Kishimoto enough credit as a intelligent human being.



I'd actually like it to be Yata. Because that would make Itachi the fastest character with Susano'o. 
To manifest it fully and even physically move its arm to be able to block lightning which was already in motion... 

But yeah, like you said, If Itachi blocked it with Yata then the whole Yata wank by Zetsu would be be meaningless. We can agree that it was an unknown stage between 1 - 3 most likely closer to 3 than it is to 1.

Also I love the plot hole that Zetsu didn't know about Susano'o 
Will of Madara doesn't know about Madara's signature jutsu


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## ZE (Jan 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But yeah, like you said, If Itachi blocked it with Yata then the whole Yata wank by Zetsu would be be meaningless. We can agree that it was an unknown stage between 1 - 3 most likely closer to 3 than it is to 1.



Say what? 




defenses


Zetzu also said amateratsu is the strongest ninjutsu. 
Shouldn't that make amateratsu, you know, the strongest ninjutsu? But it wasn't.


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## Enki (Jan 8, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12;49441141PS has the Tengu Mask as you can see here.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Seems we won't go anywhere. Let's just agree to disagree then.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ueharakk (Jan 8, 2014)

Enki said:


> Kurama standing up is the same height as his tails, Madara's V4/PS is as tall as him while Kurama is on 4 legs (Which means that Madara's V4/PS's upper body is 2 times smaller than Kurama on two legs). Let's use some pixel scaling with a skeleton.
> 
> Madara only used the upper body of his Susanoo (head-arms), i used a green line for the upper body and it is 83 pixels long. The entire body is 315 pixels long (blue line). So this means that V4/PS's Full Body is 3.79 (or 3,79) times his upper body.


*half susanoos go all the way down to the waist of the human skeleton.*

Not only that, but we know *PS is the same size as mokujin.*  The upperbody portion of hashirama's *mokujin is pretty much the same size as 100% Kurama's upper body.*  The only difference is that mokujin is bulkier. 

So the three: mokujin, 100% Kurama and PS are all pretty much the same size.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 8, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> *half susanoos go all the way down to the waist of the human skeleton.*
> 
> Not only that, but we know *PS is the same size as mokujin.*  The upperbody portion of hashirama's *mokujin is pretty much the same size as 100% Kurama's upper body.*  The only difference is that mokujin is bulkier.
> 
> So the three: mokujin, 100% Kurama and PS are all pretty much the same size.



On this page, it looks like PS is actually taller. Because when PS is standing straight, its head is higher than the armor by a more significant amount.


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## ueharakk (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> On this page, it looks like PS is actually taller. Because when PS is standing straight, the back part isn't much higher than its head.


*The wings are much higher than the head.*

Mokujin was simply crouching just like it was doing *here.*  In that same scan you brought up, mokujin's head is the same size as PS's head, and we know both mokujin and PS and their parts are in similar proportion to their main body as a human's.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 8, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> *The wings are much higher than the head.*
> 
> Mokujin was simply crouching just like it was doing *here.*  In that same scan you brought up, mokujin's head is the same size as PS's head, and we know both mokujin and PS and their parts are in similar proportion to their main body as a human's.



I edited my post after I said that. I realized that. But anyway, in the page I showed, PS' head was right next to its armor which indicates it was bent over as well. When it's standing straight up, it's much higher than the armor.


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## ueharakk (Jan 8, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> I edited my post after I said that. I realized that. But anyway, in the page I showed, PS' head was right next to its armor which indicates it was bent over as well. When it's standing straight up, it's much higher than the armor.



sure, but unless the body proportions of susanoo and mokujin are way off, then mokujin has to just be crouching/squatting like it did in that later scan.  I don't think they are exactly the same size, and the point being defended is that the bodies of the three are 'about' the same size, thus there is room for saying PS is the largest of the three (which I'd agree with as pretty much all the other scans show this).


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 8, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> sure, but unless the body proportions of susanoo and mokujin are way off, then mokujin has to just be crouching/squatting like it did in that later scan.  I don't think they are exactly the same size, and the point being defended is that the bodies of the three are 'about' the same size, thus there is room for saying PS is the largest of the three (which I'd agree with as pretty much all the other scans show this).



Alright, gotcha. The three are definitely all within the same range.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 8, 2014)

ZE said:


> Say what?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't get what this scan proves. Can you make your point clear ? 




> Zetzu also said amateratsu is the strongest ninjutsu.
> Shouldn't that make amateratsu, you know, the strongest ninjutsu? But it wasn't.



I think the translation was that it is the strongest ninjutsu as in strongest offensive attack.

Which is true btw, Amaterasu burns down everything.


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## ZE (Jan 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't get what this scan proves. Can you make your point clear ?




You said that if Itachi blocked kirin with Yata that would invalidate the hype Zetzu gave it. 
Your conclusion was that Zetzu believed the shield was invincible, thus Kirin couldn?t have broken it. 

So I showed you a sword said to have created this world, said by the strongest character in the manga to be enough to not only end the fight, but also to end the world. Yet, that same sword was broken. Doesn?t that fact also invalidate its hype? 

That was my point. The Yata shield may be invincible, but that doesn't mean things outside of the scope normal humans can use, such as Krilin, can't break it. 



> I think the translation was that it is the strongest ninjutsu as in strongest offensive attack.
> 
> Which is true btw, Amaterasu burns down everything.


Amateratsu burns down everything.
Kamui warps everything.
Shiki Fujin soul fucks everything.
RS? sealing pot seals everything. 
And so on? 

In fiction, the strongest offense is always stronger than the strongest defense. 
The third Raikage is proof of that. 

If amateratsu is the strongest offense, then the defensive ninjutsus in this manga will always prevail over attack-type ninjutsus because there are many defensive jutsus that trump over the amateratsu. Sealing jutsus, Shinra Tensei, Izanagi, Kamui, Haraishin, kawamari no jutsu etc. 

Also, after seeing Obito using Onmyouten, we?re still clinging to the idea that amateratsu is the strongest attack?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 8, 2014)

I don't believe that the complete Susanoo can tank a Bijuu Dama. Unless it uses Yata's mirror, the shield that Susanoo tends to have (except seemingly pure offense based Susanoo like Madara's). 

Final Susanoo (the one that comes with Totsuka and Yata's Mirror, universally), may tank it due to Yata's mirror. Without it, I don't know, it depends on how close that Susanoo is to Perfect Susanoo, which did tank a 100% Kurama Bijuu Dama.
I think with the final Susanoo, it can go either way, simply because it has been avoided purposely for some reason.


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## Jak N Blak (Jan 8, 2014)

Get Tail Swiped.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 8, 2014)

ZE said:


> You said that if Itachi blocked kirin with Yata that would invalidate the hype Zetzu gave it.
> Your conclusion was that Zetzu believed the shield was invincible, thus Kirin couldn’t have broken it.
> 
> So I showed you a sword said to have created this world, said by the strongest character in the manga to be enough to not only end the fight, but also to end the world. Yet, that same sword was broken. Doesn’t that fact also invalidate its hype?
> ...


Oh but thats not what we were trying to say.

Obito boasted about the sword *before* it was broken. 


Zetsu boasted about the shield* after *Kirin was struck. So If Kirin busted the shield in the process, then Zetsu claiming that a shield which was broken a second ago, was actually "invincible" wouldn't make any sense. He was talking as if it was the first time saw the shield and he said that it was reflecting *all *of Sasuke's attacks. If it failed to reflect Kirin, then it wouldn't make any sense either.




> Amateratsu burns down everything.
> Kamui warps everything.
> Shiki Fujin soul fucks everything.
> RS’ sealing pot seals everything.
> ...



Contextually, Zetsu might be referring to Itachi's arsenal or Dojutsu in general, or, @ that point he didn't actually design Juubito's moveset.


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## Blu-ray (Jan 9, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do realize when Susano'o reforms, it starts off with the first stage VolatileSoul? Yata Mirror was used to block but wasn't enough. Susano'o got breached.



The form used to block was never shown. I can only assume it the form didn't have Yata. It wouldn't make much sense to hype the thing as invincible right after an attack got through. It was also hyped by Madara's will, who had knowledge on Madara's and Kurama's power. I can only assume he used an incomplete form, and considering the final Susano'o takes time to form, it makes sense he couldn't do it before lightning hit.



> This is the dumbest most fanboyish statement ever. Itachi is NOT surviving attacks that are many times stronger than Kirin with Yata Mirror. Yata Mirror isn't strong enough to tank a Bijudama much less a Rasenshuriken. Only Perfect Susano'o is strong enough to tank a standard Bijudama.



Dumb and fanboyish? The manga called the fucking mirror invincible! Even if you don't by into the hyperbole, where the hell do you get off deciding what it can and cannot block? A normal V4 can block a bijuudama yet one equipped with Yata can't? Get that shit out of here. And can't block a Rasenshuriken? And you dare call me a fanboy?



> No, he had to immediately level up his Susano'o to tank the explosion. He blocked it when Hashirama pushed it forward.



Odd. That's not what I saw. He wrapped it around Kurama to protect it. Hashirama even called Madara smart for doing so. We didn't even see the Susano'o take damage, so what exactly is the basis for saying he had to level up?



> And you honestly believe Kurama would be KOed by his own attack?



That is what was implied. Even Bee got messed up by his own Bijuudama. If Kurama was going to tank it no problem, Madara wouldn't have bothered to protect it.



> Jinton is far less powerful than a Bijudama, same with A's combo and Danzo's futon's. I don't know how you can claim differently considering Bijudama wipe out gigantic mountains without even being charged up.



Having a larger area of effect does not make an attack more powerful. Jinton destroys objects by ripping molecules apart, ignoring durability. The Bijuudama is just a big explosion, one that couldn't even kill Suigestsu or knock out the Hachibi. It's the same with the single finger nukite and Rasenshuriken. One creates a huge explosion but the one that doesn't is stronger.



> It shifted to protect Madara, NOT Kurama. Hashirama said that Perfect Susano'o was used to protect Kurama _from Hashirama's own chakra absorption techniques_, NOT from his own Bijudama.



I don't recall seeing that. Could you post a link or was that in the VIZ? All I remember was him call Madara smart for using Susano'o like armor. If all Madara needed to was protect himself, why wrap Kurama? Better yet, why not be like Sasuke and use Kurama as a meat shield?

I can't expect much better though. This is like the time people said Madara used Susano'o on Kurama to protect Susano'o. You believe Naruto in BM is stronger than Hashi so I guess I shouldn't be surprised to see you overrating Kurama so fiercely.


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## ueharakk (Jan 9, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> The form used to block was never shown. I can only assume it the form didn't have Yata. It wouldn't make much sense to hype the thing as invincible right after an attack got through. It was also hyped by Madara's will, who had knowledge on Madara's and Kurama's power. I can only assume he used an incomplete form, and considering the final Susano'o takes time to form, it makes sense he couldn't do it before lightning hit.


That madara's 'will' you are referring to didn't even know what susanoo was...




VolatileSoul said:


> Dumb and fanboyish? The manga called the fucking mirror invincible! Even if you don't by into the hyperbole, where the hell do you get off deciding what it can and cannot block? A normal V4 can block a bijuudama yet one equipped with Yata can't? Get that shit out of here. And can't block a Rasenshuriken? And you dare call me a fanboy?


Yaata was never called invincible, itachi was called invincible when he had yaata, susanoo and totsuka out.  Yaata was stated to reflect all attacks "or so i've heard".  And that's coming from the same guy who said amaterasu was undodgeable.

And I'd hardly call a V4 susanoo that's as big as 100% Kurama "normal".



VolatileSoul said:


> Odd. That's not what I saw. He wrapped it around Kurama to protect it. Hashirama even called Madara smart for doing so. We didn't even see the Susano'o take damage, so what exactly is the basis for saying he had to level up?


PS was destroyed by the equivalent of 11 bijuu sword damas.  Unless V4 is more durable than PS, it's obviously going to get damaged by 1/11th of the power it takes to destroy PS.




VolatileSoul said:


> That is what was implied. Even Bee got messed up by his own Bijuudama. If Kurama was going to tank it no problem, Madara wouldn't have bothered to protect it.


The dama that PS blocked was a dama as powerful as one that any of the tailed beasts can produce.  Damage kurama, surely it would, but in order to messs Kurama up on the same level as bee, it's going to have to be a super bijuudama like what BM Naruto was dishing against the neo pain.




VolatileSoul said:


> Having a larger area of effect does not make an attack more powerful. Jinton destroys objects by ripping molecules apart, ignoring durability. The Bijuudama is just a big explosion, one that couldn't even kill Suigestsu or knock out the Hachibi. It's the same with the single finger nukite and Rasenshuriken. One creates a huge explosion but the one that doesn't is stronger.


If the attack is an explosion, then yes, the larger the AoE of the explosion the more powerful it is.  Jinton absolutely does not ignore durability, it's simply a very concentrated attack which is why susanoo can block black jinton while normal jinton can just go right through less durable objects.  

Suigetsu didn't even take the explosion, the dama passed through him and exploded kilometers behind his position.  The hachibi was heavily wounded by its own bijuudama.  

The bijuudama is a far more powerful attack than jinton as it destroyed mokuryu, mokujin and flower tree world while oonoki exerting the full force of his laser on flower tree world was incapable of clearing out a significant portion of it when viewed from above.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Contextually, Zetsu might be referring to Itachi's arsenal or Dojutsu in general, or, @ that point he didn't actually design Juubito's moveset.



Logically we're more prone to believe one of the greatest powers linking to the RS would be superior over something which is spawned by less than half of RS' power. 

For instance, Perfect Susanoo (a level far above Itachi's Susanoo) couldn't tank Juubi TBBs, yet was able to tank a Kyuubi version.


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## Blu-ray (Jan 9, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> That madara's 'will' you are referring to didn't even know what susanoo was...



White Zetsu said that. Black Zetsu is Madara's will and never said anything about Susano'o.



> Yaata was never called invincible, itachi was called invincible when he had yaata, susanoo and totsuka out.  Yaata was stated to reflect all attacks "or so i've heard".  And that's coming from the same guy who said amaterasu was undodgeable.



It was said to be able to block all attacks. That is good enough for me. Like I said. I don't care if anyone believes Zetsu's statement to be fact or hyperbole. I just take issue with people imposing limits on the thing and deciding it can't block certain attacks without some basis.



> And I'd hardly call a V4 susanoo that's as big as 100% Kurama "normal".



It wouldn't make sense for Yata to exist if a normal V4 could be stronger.



> PS was destroyed by the equivalent of 11 bijuu sword damas.  Unless V4 is more durable than PS, it's obviously going to get damaged by 1/11th of the power it takes to destroy PS.



I don't know about 1/11th. 11 Bijuudama's with power enhanced by mountain busting swords should be vastly more powerful than a single bijuudama. And I'm pretty sure Chojo Kebutsu> Madara's sword Bijuudama combo.



> The dama that PS blocked was a dama as powerful as one that any of the tailed beasts can produce.  Damage kurama, surely it would, but in order to messs Kurama up on the same level as bee, it's going to have to be a super bijuudama like what BM Naruto was dishing against the neo pain.



I'm really sorry, but I don't remember. Did Kurama ever take an attack on the level of it's own Bijuudama? And I'm not speaking about BM Naruto. If not, it's not really possible to know If it would mess Kurama up. I only assumed it would mess Kurama up because Madara saw the need to protect the Kyuubi.



> If the attack is an explosion, then yes, the larger the AoE of the explosion the more powerful it is.  Jinton absolutely does not ignore durability, it's simply a very concentrated attack which is why susanoo can block black jinton while normal jinton can just go right through less durable objects.



I know that the bigger an explosion the more powerful it is. But what about attacks that don't explode? Simply creating a massive explosion doesn't mean an attack is more powerful than one that doesn't. I don't recall anything ever tanking a Jinton, so I assumed it ignored durability. Even Sasuke's Susano'o was destroyed despite stopping it. The very mechanics of the technique seemed to imply as much. I don't see how anything can withstand having it's molecules dispersed.



> Suigetsu didn't even take the explosion, the dama passed through him and exploded kilometers behind his position.  The hachibi was heavily wounded by its own bijuudama.



Fair enough. Still, considering that neither of them are all that durable and were damaged by things weaker yet still withstood the bijuudama(poorly but still), it doesn't seem like something as durable as a V4 Susano'o would fail. Even if it got damaged.



> The bijuudama is a far more powerful attack than jinton as it destroyed mokuryu, mokujin and flower tree world while oonoki exerting the full force of his laser on flower tree world was incapable of clearing out a significant portion of it when viewed from above.



The Bijuudama destroyed those things because it had a large area of effect in addition to being powerful. Jinton could not take out more because Onoki simply could not make a Jinton that was large enough. Everything Onoki swept his laser by was destroyed.


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## ueharakk (Jan 9, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> White Zetsu said that. Black Zetsu is Madara's will and never said anything about Susano'o.


no it was clearly black zetsu since he's the one who *gets the abstract text font.*




VolatileSoul said:


> It was said to be able to block all attacks. That is good enough for me. Like I said. I don't care if anyone believes Zetsu's statement to be fact or hyperbole. I just take issue with people imposing limits on the thing and deciding it can't block certain attacks without some basis.


that's true, no limits hyperbole should allow anyone to specify their own limits whether it helps or hurts itachi.




VolatileSoul said:


> It wouldn't make sense for Yata to exist if a normal V4 could be stronger.


again, Yaata exists for Itachi's V4, the susanoo that's as big as a bijuu's head, not a V4 that's as big as 100% Kurama's body.  That's not a 'normal' V4 so that susanoo not getting busted by a bijuudama has nothing to do with yaata defending against one.




VolatileSoul said:


> I don't know about 1/11th. 11 Bijuudama's with power enhanced by mountain busting swords should be vastly more powerful than a single bijuudama. And I'm pretty sure Chojo Kebutsu> Madara's sword Bijuudama combo.


The swords only generate enormous power when swung.  If they are in the bijuudama, they don't generate mountain-busting slashes when they spin, they are only there so that they can't be caught.  
Chojou Kebutsu is = to Madara's sword + bijuudama combo as both yielded the same size explosion which is kishi's way of showing the attacks are equal.  




VolatileSoul said:


> I'm really sorry, but I don't remember. Did Kurama ever take an attack on the level of it's own Bijuudama? And I'm not speaking about BM Naruto. If not, it's not really possible to know If it would mess Kurama up. I only assumed it would mess Kurama up because Madara saw the need to protect the Kyuubi.


Nope, it never did but its durability feats such as taking attacks like Senpou Chou oodama rasengan barrage in its mere 50% state without even looking damaged and only getting momentarily incapacitated by FRS to the chest puts its durability far above the hachibi's own.  Kurama's bijuudama that madara defended against isn't much more powerful than the standard bijuudamas that the other bijuu were firing.  At worst, it would hurt Kurama, but nothing like what it did to the hachibi.  Naruto's version of the hachibi's bijuudama is that super one he used against the 5 bijuu, thus that's what most likely would 'mess kurama up'.




VolatileSoul said:


> I know that the bigger an explosion the more powerful it is. But what about attacks that don't explode? Simply creating a massive explosion doesn't mean an attack is more powerful than one that doesn't. I don't recall anything ever tanking a Jinton, so I assumed it ignored durability. Even Sasuke's Susano'o was destroyed despite stopping it. The very mechanics of the technique seemed to imply as much. I don't see how anything can withstand having it's molecules dispersed.


Nothing simply 'ignores durability' except maybe preta path or techniques that absorb chakra.  If jinton can be momentarily blocked by sasuke's susanoo, then it doesn't really ignore durability, rather its just an attack that's extremely concentrated.  
Oonoki had to make multiple rotations in order to destroy an insignificant portion of flower tree world, so jinton is simply a rate-based attack.




VolatileSoul said:


> Fair enough. Still, considering that neither of them are all that durable and were damaged by things weaker yet still withstood the bijuudama(poorly but still), it doesn't seem like something as durable as a V4 Susano'o would fail. Even if it got damaged.


The hachibi's body is very durable, it's only its limbs and replacable parts that aren't so much.  not only that but explosive and blunt attacks damage rigid constructs a lot more noticeably than living ones.  Example would be sakura punching a juubi spawn and tsunade punching ribcage susanoo.  V3 susanoo got blown open by danzou's fuuton, triple rashoumon were vaporized by a mere KN4 bijuudama, V3 legged and possibly senjutsu enhanced was destroyed by 9 tail swipes.  I don't see how any of susanoos durability feats would allow V4 to withstand a mountain vaporizer.  




VolatileSoul said:


> The Bijuudama destroyed those things because it had a large area of effect in addition to being powerful. Jinton could not take out more because Onoki simply could not make a Jinton that was large enough. Everything Onoki swept his laser by was destroyed.


Oonoki's jinton was swing around in circles and travels as a beam.  So if AoE was really the limiting factor, it would have completely leveled the entire FTW technique, but instead it only cleared a small portion of it.  Thus it had to have exerted its full force on the tech.


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