# The Thing vs. Nappa



## Heavenly King (Dec 19, 2010)

this fight takes place in nyc the both start toe to toe. nappa has no scouter and theirs no blood lust at all. who wins and why.. yes ben grim aka the thing mr knuckle sandwich him self



Ben Grim aka The thing


vs


Nappa


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## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 19, 2010)

Have to give it to nappa.
The thing may have the physical advantage, but thats all.


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## Nevermind (Dec 19, 2010)

Comes down to range. Thing is stronger but Nappa has more firepower. This is my initial thought anyway.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 19, 2010)

I don't see Thing coming back from a moon buster


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## Heavenly King (Dec 19, 2010)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> I don't see Thing coming back from a moon buster




he has to get blast by it first.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 19, 2010)

Shouldn't be a problem.
Thing isn't very fast on his feet.


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## Nevermind (Dec 19, 2010)

Hmmmm well if both start toe to toe it's gonna come down to how fast Thing can punch vs Nappa's reaction time (which we know is at least in the double digits hypersonic). If Nappa can dodge it and get into the air, he'd have no qualms about nuking the city over and over again.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 19, 2010)

I'm not so sure Thing could oneshot Nappa anyway.


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## Heavenly King (Dec 19, 2010)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> Shouldn't be a problem.
> Thing isn't very fast on his feet.



he's fast enough to get out of the way of the blast. the thing is a pretty smart fighter he always finds ways around alot of some of the stuff he has to deal with.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 19, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> he's fast enough to get out of the way of the blast. the thing is a pretty smart fighter he always finds ways around alot of some of the stuff he has to deal with.



He might be able to dodge the epicenter by a few feet, but he can't escape the aoe.
He also couldn't dodge his two finger attack.


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## Level7N00b (Dec 19, 2010)

Isn't the Thing Class 80, in Marvel? That's probably enough to one shot Nappa, if he hits.


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 19, 2010)

How fast or good is the Thing's reaction? Nappa is not one shotting Thing, Ben is one resiliant badass and he's used to taking hits from bricks that should be able to replicate moon-low planetary strength atleast. Nappa could win with repeated attacks but it comes down to Thing's reaction/movement speed and physical durability.

Nappa is an idiot.


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## Heavenly King (Dec 19, 2010)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> I'm not so sure Thing could oneshot Nappa anyway.



if he can bloody wwh's mouth he can one shot nappa


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## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 19, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> Isn't the Thing Class 80, in Marvel? That's probably enough to one shot Nappa, if he hits.



Class 90
go figure.
Well, he may be able to kill him in one hit.
I still doubt he can hit him, and Nappa could just keep pelting him with Ki blasts.


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 19, 2010)

Not bad, got any other awesome strength feats? Thing is one of my fav Marvel characters.


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## Nevermind (Dec 19, 2010)

As stated, toe to toe this comes down to Thing's punch speed vs Nappa's reaction time (which we know is at least in the double digits hypersonic).

HK, why the face to face conditions? lol


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## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 19, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> if he can bloody wwh's mouth he can one shot nappa



looked up his official level,
class 90 yeah, he could likely do it.
How consistent is that feat btw.
regular hulk regularly trounces him.


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 19, 2010)

That has nothing to do with whose physical stronger, being able to make someone bleed=/= to being as strong as them or being able to tank their hits. He probably wants it to be hand to hand.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 19, 2010)

You mean for this fight?
Thing would kick Nappa's ass hand to hand.
easily.


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## Heavenly King (Dec 19, 2010)

Nevermind said:


> As stated, toe to toe this comes down to Thing's punch speed vs Nappa's reaction time (which we know is at least in the double digits hypersonic).
> 
> HK, why the face to face conditions? lol



slug fest time the both brawls


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 19, 2010)

Thing would win, Nappa basically has anger issues and is not very smart without Vegeta around to control him and Thing is physically stronger and better skilled.


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## Heavenly King (Dec 19, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Thing would win, Nappa basically has anger issues and is not very smart without Vegeta around to control him and Thing is physically stronger and better skilled.



after all the blasting and thing being strong enough to take some damage. nappa would want to come up and finish the jump.. he's where ben get's mid evil in that ass.

as for ben tanking his moon buster ben has gotta blasted by the best in the game. here's one of them right here blastarr

Defeating a meteor buster, Blaastar
Here it is


thanks ben grimm for the quick scans


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## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 19, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> after all the blasting and thing being strong enough to take some damage. nappa would want to come up and finish the jump.. he's where ben get's mid evil in that ass.
> 
> as for ben tanking his moon buster ben has gotta blasted by the best in the game. here's one of them right here blastarr
> 
> ...



could you elaborate more on that feat?


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## Soledad Eterna (Dec 19, 2010)

Nappa should win with ki blasts and being faster.


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## Heavenly King (Dec 19, 2010)

i am calling it a night people i am sure others can post up more feats. i am not saying it's going to be a easy fight for ben.


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## Glued (Dec 19, 2010)

I can think of two meteor busters that The Thing has been able to tank.

Shangra the Star-Dancer and Blastaar.

Shangra however knocked Ben out when she decided to crank up the juice after Ben hesitated to kill her. Shangra also threatened to destroy Earth itself.

Shangra casually dodges and dances like a ballerina over meteors and asteroids.

The Thing was able to hit her with a church. I'm not joking, he hit her with a church. Overall though, she avoided Ben's punches. Even called him lumbering.

Nappa just flies up and shoots at The Thing from long distance.


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## Glued (Dec 19, 2010)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> could you elaborate more on that feat?



That would be Blastaar, he destroys meteors/asteroids, kicked Genis-Vell's butt, blasts through solid walls of Adamantium.

Him and the Thing have had a few scuffles in the past.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 19, 2010)

Wait, adamantium, isn't that like above star level?


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Dec 19, 2010)

meh. I'd say Nappa flies up and raises two fingers and keeps on doing that until he doesn't haveto anymore. That said, if one goes by those rarer highest end feats...

I recall the Thing has:
1) taken hits from a planet-buster (Champion) who doesn't know the meanign of holding back.
2) Survived pissed off Hulk hits edit: and 2 other notable people around dat
3) Taken hits from Namor in the water and fought him fairly evenly, though I recall these from the oldest ff4 issues. Edit; They were fighting on a beach so Namor wasn't totally i nthe water. 
4) casually tanked a nuke with no damage. This last one is probably most relevant to energy blast, but I don't know how a nuke compares to Nappa's power.

With those, I don't think Nappa could really down Mr Grimm. However, the problem still remains of how in the hell is The Thing suppose to catch Nappa?????


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## Glued (Dec 19, 2010)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> Wait, adamantium, isn't that like above star level?



Let me tell you something, Anything that has to deal with Wolverine, is bullcrap. Marvel wanks the hell out of him just for the sake of it.

hell, here Blastaar is blasting through adamantium.



Hulk bends Adamantium around Blastaar before chucking him away.

*Spoiler*: __


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## Glued (Dec 19, 2010)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> meh. I'd say Nappa flies up and raises two fingers and keeps on doing that until he doesn't haveto anymore. That said, if one goes by those rarer highest end feats...
> 
> I recall the Thing has:
> 1) taken hits from a planet-buster (Champion) who doesn't know the meanign of holding back.
> ...



The Champion busted planets while fighting Thanos. I doubt he was going all out against Ben.

When the Champ came to earth to challenge Earth's bricks, he hit Sasquatch with a punch that would've "Shattered a medium-sized mountain."

Ben did say though that Champ punched him harder than either the Silver Surfer or the Hulk, which is saying something.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Dec 19, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> The Champion busted planets while fighting Thanos. I doubt he was going all out against Ben.
> 
> When the Champ came to earth to challenge Earth's bricks, he hit Sasquatch with a punch that would've "Shattered a medium-sized mountain."
> 
> Ben did say though that Champ punched *him harder than either the Silver Surfer or the Hulk*, which is saying something.



I rest my case.  

Seriously though, how hard would you say da champ punched him then? I never forgot that secret wars issue were hulk held up 100 billion tons or something when he was barely mad, and seemingly weaker then he is now (WWH power-up?).


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## Lord Raizen (Dec 19, 2010)

Ive never agreed with the usage of the Moon Busting feats, but Nappa should at least be around Country level, even without going all out.

Im sure he could damage the Thing significantly with any blast that makes contact.

As for speed, Nappa surely outclasses the thing. 23rd Budokai fighters are easily in the mid-high double digits of Mach speeds, considering Tao is Mach 28.

Radditz was dominating them with some difficulty, showing a significant speed advantage over the both of them in a 2 on 1 fight. Nappa is comfortably take down each and every one of Earth's defender's with low difficulty. And they were all Radditz level +

Nappa is very arguably Massively Hypersonic +


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## Glued (Dec 19, 2010)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> I rest my case.
> 
> Seriously though, how hard would you say da champ punched him then? I never forgot that secret wars issue were hulk held up 100 billion tons or something when he was barely mad, and seemingly weaker then he is now (WWH power-up?).



Mountain busters, multi mountains. Ben has also survived a punch from gladiator. Got wrecked though.

Because of his beatings at the hands of both the Champ and Gladiator he was hospitalized.

There was even an issue where Ben was trapped in the hospital and all the heroes had to protect him because of his weakened condition.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 19, 2010)

Ben's a badass, but i rest my case that he loses here, unless it is purely h2h.
He might even beat freeza there.


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## Nevermind (Dec 19, 2010)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> Ben's a badass, but i rest my case that he loses here, unless it is purely h2h.
> He might even beat freeza there.



Well they start off toe to toe so hand to hand is pretty possible. Nappa just needs to take off and start firing away before Thing can punch him. He should be able to do it.


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## Bender (Dec 20, 2010)

Nappa turns "The Thing" into a prison bitch just like Vegeta was made into


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## Vynjira (Dec 20, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> Isn't the Thing Class 80, in Marvel? That's probably enough to one shot Nappa, if he hits.


Class 80 means nothing...

There are many class 100s that could 1 shot Nappa.. but that is only because Class 100 includes people tens, hundreds, thousands, millions, billions, trillions, quadrillions, quintillions, sextillions, etc.. etc.. times stronger than other Class 100s.

I do believe Nappa was hit thru a mountain at one point... Without losing consciousness or even so much as a sign of physical pain... So there are prolly some low end Class 100s that couldn't 1 shot Nappa.





> considering Tao is Mach 28.


Since when? Goku(after training with King Kai) took nearly 2 Days  to travel less than a million kilometers... which is around mach 17..





Azrael Finalstar said:


> Wait, adamantium, isn't that like above star level?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True Adamantium could survive several nuclear explosions with almost no damage.

As for Hulk's feat, that was only secondary Adamantium which is to say not impressive. Wolverine's skeleton is laced with True Adamantium.


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## Thor (Dec 20, 2010)

Ben Grimm isn't touching Nappa. He is definately stronger but he isn't fast enough to hit Xenu.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 20, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> Let me tell you something, Anything that has to deal with Wolverine, is bullcrap. Marvel wanks the hell out of him just for the sake of it.
> 
> hell, here Blastaar is blasting through adamantium.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure those were retconned to being secondary adamantium.

Anyway if Nappa gets in the air and doesn't try to go HtH then Ben's only chance is a thunderclap.


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## Heavenly King (Dec 20, 2010)

Vynjira said:


> Class 80 means nothing...
> 
> There are many class 100s that could 1 shot Nappa.. but that is only because Class 100 includes people tens, hundreds, thousands, millions, billions, trillions, quadrillions, quintillions, sextillions, etc.. etc.. times stronger than other Class 100s.
> 
> ...



some one is getting a rep... i am not the only that laughs at that failed tao bs



Endless Mike said:


> I'm pretty sure those were retconned to being secondary adamantium.
> 
> Anyway if Nappa gets in the air and doesn't try to go HtH then Ben's only chance is a thunderclap.




yea it was secondary adamantium i agree is nappa stays away he'll win. the big fool would just get so stupid and he would try to punch or kick and get him self beat on


things durability feat 




punching the crap out of terrax


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## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 20, 2010)

How strong is Thing's thunderclap?


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## ShiggyDiggyDoo (Dec 20, 2010)

Nappa blasts a casual moon busting attack at The Thing. GG. How this even reached 3 pages is beyond me.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 20, 2010)

Spartan1337 said:


> Nappa blasts a casual moon busting attack at The Thing. GG. How this even reached 3 pages is beyond me.



Because he hasn't tanked hits from people way beyond that power before


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## Lord Raizen (Dec 20, 2010)

Vynjira said:


> Since when? Goku(after training with King Kai) took nearly 2 Days  to travel less than a million kilometers... which is around mach 17..



Tao's Pillar feat has him at Mach 14 - 28. This was established a long time ago, and has been a standing early DB calc for a long while.

Goku's Mach 17 calc may hold as well, but Tao's feat simply means that those superior to him can move faster over short distances. Goku being one such example. The Snack way feat isn't nearly the same as Tao's, and thus it's still likely that 22nd and 23rd Budokai fighters are well into the Mid double digits of Mach speeds.

Radditz being significantly faster than Post 23rd Budokai Piccolo and Goku, and Nappa massively faster than Radditz.

Point is the Thing has no advantage in speed, and if anything is a significant disadvantage.



Spartan1337 said:


> Nappa blasts a casual moon busting attack at The Thing. GG. How this even reached 3 pages is beyond me.



The two moon busting feats are very inconsistent with there surrouding destructive feats, and really aren't good to use.

Though I agree that Nappa should have enough destructive power to down the Thing, with some difficulty perhaps.


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## ShiggyDiggyDoo (Dec 20, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Because he hasn't tanked hits from people way beyond that power before



Who cares? He's still got the clear speed advantage. I didn't see this fight being specified as an clear HTH fight, so I'm guessing it's an normal fight, which would consist of The Thing's rocky ass being nuked by Nappa.



Lord Raizen said:


> The two moon busting feats are very inconsistent with there surrouding destructive feats, and really aren't good to use.
> 
> Though I agree that Nappa should have enough destructive power to down the Thing, with some difficulty perhaps.



Well, even if we were to disclude those feats, Nappa can still casually destroy cities with his own two fingers. The Thing couldn't handle a rapid succession of those attacks.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 20, 2010)

You have evidence Nappa can spam them in rapid succession?


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## ShiggyDiggyDoo (Dec 20, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> You have evidence Nappa can spam them in rapid succession?



Based on the fact that he did it casually without even really charging up. He was laughing his ass off when he did it. There's also the fact that an character even weaker than Nappa, such as King Piccolo was able to casually city bust as well. And then there's also Raditz who can also casually bust mountains.

Oh, Raditz. Now that'd be at least a somewhat better match up for The Thing. I think that the Thing would at least last a couple of more seconds with Raditz than he would with Nappa.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 20, 2010)

King Piccolo's blast was nowhere near Nappa's attack.


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## Emperor Joker (Dec 20, 2010)

Spartan1337 said:


> Based on the fact that he did it casually without even really charging up. He was laughing his ass off when he did it. There's also the fact that an character even weaker than Nappa, such as King Piccolo was able to casually city bust as well. And then there's also Raditz who can also casually bust mountains.
> 
> Oh, Raditz. Now that'd be at least a somewhat better match up for The Thing. I think that the Thing would at least last a couple of more seconds with Raditz than he would with Nappa.



Piccolo Daimou exhausted himself trying to city bust...it was anything but casual.


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## RandomLurker (Dec 20, 2010)

Piccolo Moon busted with a casual blast at the beginning of the Saiyan saga.


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## Soledad Eterna (Dec 20, 2010)

He charged it up fast but I remember he exhausted himself after that.


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## Vynjira (Dec 20, 2010)

Lord Raizen said:


> Tao's Pillar feat has him at Mach 14 - 28. This was established a long time ago, and has been a standing early DB calc for a long while.


Established how?  because noone bothered to dispute it?





> The Snack way feat isn't nearly the same as Tao's, and thus it's still likely that 22nd and 23rd Budokai fighters are well into the Mid double digits of Mach speeds.


Its conceivable he could throw something far faster than anyone could run at the time.. otherwise why bother? Then again that says nothing of his combat speed.. or budoaki fighters being in the double digit mach speeds.. especially seeing as Goku after King Kai's training.


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## In Brightest Day! (Dec 20, 2010)

Didn't Akira Toriyama himself state that Tao's Pillar feat was at Mach 14?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Dec 20, 2010)

InBrightestDay said:


> Didn't Akira Toriyama himself state that Tao's Pillar feat was at Mach 14?


not really, though the distance traveled by the pillar is stated, along with the time to get there, IIRC


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## Endless Mike (Dec 20, 2010)

Time to get there was never stated, he gave the time he thought it would take to get there, beat Goku, and get back.


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## ShiggyDiggyDoo (Dec 20, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> King Piccolo's blast was nowhere near Nappa's attack.



I don't know what manga you read but he destroyed a city with a wave of his hand.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 20, 2010)

He destroyed a city after seriously exhausting himself, and it was later referred to as a "town" by Oolong. Nappa destroyed or at least damaged multiple cities easily.


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## Glued (Dec 20, 2010)

Not another one of these DBZ inconsistency threads. 

Look whether we are looking at high end or low end spectrums. Nappa wins.

Ben can't fly and he doesn't have the speed. He loses.


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## Nevermind (Dec 20, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> Not another one of these DBZ inconsistency threads.
> 
> Look whether we are looking at high end or low end spectrums. Nappa wins.
> 
> Ben can't fly and he doesn't have the speed. He loses.



Unless it's hand to hand, and the OP said they were right in front of each other. Do you think Nappa would be able to dodge? Also bloodlust is off so he may try and stupidly or arrogantly go for CQC.


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## Emperor Joker (Dec 20, 2010)

Spartan1337 said:


> I don't know what manga you read but he destroyed a city with a wave of his hand.



It sure as hell wan't casual though. Piccolo Daimou's citybust exhausted him...that is not casual. Nappa's citybust was casual, as he did it without any noticable strain.


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 20, 2010)

While suppressed and two fingers creating an explosion seen in space.


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## Glued (Dec 20, 2010)

Nevermind said:


> Unless it's hand to hand, and the OP said they were right in front of each other. Do you think Nappa would be able to dodge? Also bloodlust is off so he may try and stupidly or arrogantly go for CQC.



At close quarters, Nappa is likely to damage his own hands.

Also Ben's thunder clap damages ear drums and knocks people off balance. He knocked Magneto unconscious with a thunderclap once. Ben doesn't use the thunderclap often, and his thunder clap lacks range. But get close enough and it will either knock you unconscious or off balance. 

Speed, Ben has been able to spin fast enough to create a water vortex to draw in Namor the Sub Mariner.


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 20, 2010)

That should be calc'd if possible it's a  nice speed feat for him.


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## Level7N00b (Dec 20, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> While suppressed and two fingers creating an explosion seen in space.



And the shockwaves could be felt from where Gohan and Piccolo's wasteland, IIRC.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 20, 2010)

No, they were felt by Tien and Chaotzu, and we didn't know how far away they were.


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## Banhammer (Dec 20, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> It sure as hell wan't casual though. Piccolo Daimou's citybust exhausted him...that is not casual. Nappa's citybust was casual, as he did it without any noticable strain.



Nappa's citybust was more of a hax then a powerbust. The same way (sorry for knowing this) very weak magic users in eragon can kill someone by cutting their hearstrings, something that requires next to no physical effort, instead of blowing a million callories with a fire blast.
What nappa did was use his ki to tfuck with the earth's magnetics or something. 
Someone else will explain it properly.
Unless I'm horribly mistaken about this
This doesn't speak of the outcome either way, I just thought it should have been said


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## In Brightest Day! (Dec 20, 2010)

It was felt by everyone. Piccolo and Gohan, Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Chaozu, Yamcha and Yajirobe.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Dec 20, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> What nappa did was use his key to tfuck with the earth's magnetics or something.



what the hell

where did you even get this, do you have some fucked up copy of the manga or something


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## Banhammer (Dec 20, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> what the hell
> 
> where did you even get this, do you have some fucked up copy of the manga or something



Hahaha, I wrote "key"



Banhammer said:


> Unless I'm horribly mistaken about this


Somehow this is something I'm very sure of, although it's been long since I've read that arc
Maybe it was a databook and I confused this?
Anyway, someone who remembers the story better will either refute or correct it. 
I by no mean stand by it.


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## Tranquil Fury (Dec 20, 2010)

Ki blasts don't have any specific temperature and trying to explain away such explosions not generating the level of heat you'd expect  will only end up worse like we just saw.


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## Banhammer (Dec 20, 2010)

My notion of the exact nature of ki has been challenged a lot to say the least so I'll leave the thread on that note


Why announce it you ask?
Well, +1 postcount


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## Havoc (Dec 20, 2010)

Nappa fucks Thing up.


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## Zack Fair (Dec 20, 2010)

Oh, Heavenly King, you little Dragon Ball spiter, you.

Nappa takes this handily.


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## Uncle Phantom (Dec 21, 2010)

Why is this 4 pages again?


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## Heavenly King (Dec 21, 2010)

Zack Fair said:


> Oh, Heavenly King, you little Dragon Ball spiter, you.
> 
> Nappa takes this handily.




that's why i said toe to toe try reading the thread  i already said if nappa flies away and blasted many times he can win, but seeing that nappa is a hot head fool he would try to go toe to toe and get himself hit with a punch from the thing for the lost.


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## Heavenly King (Dec 21, 2010)

Spartan1337 said:


> I don't know what manga you read but he destroyed a city with a wave of his hand.





Uploaded with 


he didn't do no such thing and it was a town


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## LostHanyou (Dec 21, 2010)

If they're in character I don't see how Nappa can win.  He's not the smartest guy out there.


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## king kakarott (Dec 21, 2010)

nappa with 0 any effort at all would win


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## Nevermind (Dec 21, 2010)

king kakarott said:


> nappa with 0 any effort at all would win



Lovin' that one dimensional attitude you've got there.


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## Thor (Dec 21, 2010)

king kakarott said:


> nappa with 0 any effort at all would win





Nevermind said:


> Lovin' that one dimensional attitude you've got there.


He has a valid point.


Eternal Sleep said:


> Why is this 4 pages again?


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## Nevermind (Dec 21, 2010)

Thor Odinson said:


> He has a valid point.



I know he does as Nappa's got a very good shot. But I really dislike it when someone completely ignores the opposition's skill set, and I do not like Nappa's chances in CQC.


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## Thor (Dec 21, 2010)

Nevermind said:


> I know he does as Nappa's got a very good shot. But I really dislike it when someone completely ignores the opposition's skill set, and* I do not like Nappa's chances in CQC.*



Why not? The Thing isn't hitting Nappa unless Nappa want's him to.


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## Nevermind (Dec 21, 2010)

Thor Odinson said:


> Why not? The Thing isn't hitting Nappa unless Nappa want's him to.



Well because HK put e'm toe to toe. I guess my question of Nappa's reaction time has been answered then.


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## MisterShin (Dec 21, 2010)

It is clear Nappa wins.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 21, 2010)

Thing has tagged people way faster than Nappa could ever hope to be


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## Lord Raizen (Dec 21, 2010)

Vynjira said:


> Established how?  because noone bothered to dispute it?Its conceivable he could throw something far faster than anyone could run at the time.. otherwise why bother? Then again that says nothing of his combat speed.. or budoaki fighters being in the double digit mach speeds.. especially seeing as Goku after King Kai's training.



The calc has been standing and in use for over a year, with no complaints that Im aware of. It was debunked at the time of it's creation, it hasn't been debunked since. So, You can either try to debunk it or accept it.

As far as Im concerned, Goku's speed feat isn't the fastest speed shown in DB up until that point.

Goku ran for 2 km. We know how fast he'd have to be moving to cover that distance in the time that he did, so we were able to do attain an average speed for him.

However, Goku could have just as easily slow'ed down at some points, or moved faster at other points. It's long distance movement speed, which isn't necessarily his combat or short ranged speed.

Tao catching up with his Pillar which was moving at Mach 14 is far shorter of a distance than what Goku ran, thus it makes sense that Tao could plausibly move at twice that speed, which would be necessary to catch up with it as he did.

Goku likely could move at such speeds before Saiyan saga as well. Just not over 2km distances. 

Goku's snack way feat does not by any means debunk Tao's Pillar feat.

So, as it stands, Nappa is easily well into the mid-high double digits of Mach speeds, considering Tao is almost Mach 30, and he's fodder compared to 23rd Budokai fighters.


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## Uncle Phantom (Dec 21, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Thing has tagged people way faster than Nappa could ever hope to be



Your point?

He's also failed to hit people who are nowhere close to being as fast as Nappa. This is why you go by his normal showings which suggest Nappa will have an easy time dodging Ben's haymakers.


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## Glued (Dec 21, 2010)

At close range, Ben's only hope is thunder clap, stun and punch.

However T-clap is not something Ben uses very often.

*Spoiler*: __ 








Edge is still Nappa.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 22, 2010)

Eternal Sleep said:


> Your point?
> 
> He's also failed to hit people who are nowhere close to being as fast as Nappa. This is why you go by his normal showings which suggest Nappa will have an easy time dodging Ben's haymakers.



Hypocrite, you're judging Nappa by his one best feat but ignoring Ben's feats.

 is all that one of Nappa's best attacks did and even Piccolo thought it was impressive


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Dec 22, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Hypocrite, you're judging Nappa by his one best feat but ignoring Ben's feats.
> 
> is all that one of Nappa's best attacks did and even Piccolo thought it was impressive



It's not being a hypocrite it's being logical. The only time Ben hit's speedsters is if they aren't going there full speed or if the plot calls for it.

You said Ben hit speedsters that are way faster than Nappa, and I countered by saying that he also fails to hit fighters that are slow as shit. If we don't go by his normal showings then we can do this all day.The Thing is not faster than Nappa. Deal with it.


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 22, 2010)

LOL@ appeal to plot bullshit. If you want to average showings then Nappa's average attack is only enough to destroy a small rock formation.


----------



## Takuza (Dec 22, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> LOL@ appeal to plot bullshit. If you want to average showings then Nappa's average attack is only enough to destroy a small rock formation.



Well it created a hole of unknown depth in process


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## Endless Mike (Dec 22, 2010)

Takuza said:


> Well it created a hole of unknown depth in process



That wasn't his average attack. That was actually the second most powerful attack he was shown to use. And it couldn't have been too deep or else it would collapse in on itself, or lava would appear.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 22, 2010)

Most marvel characters have tagged speedsters.
it doesn't matter what you say mike, its PIS.
Thing may be faster than your average person, but super speed is not one of his prescribed abilities.


----------



## Heavenly King (Dec 22, 2010)

ben has been blasted by way stronger people and still fought on. nappa's strongest attack is his mouth blast that's to long to power up.




Azrael Finalstar said:


> Most marvel characters have tagged speedsters.
> it doesn't matter what you say mike, its PIS.
> Thing may be faster than your average person, but super speed is not one of his prescribed abilities.




reacting time is pretty damn good for his size, so i wouldn't call it pis at all


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 22, 2010)

At least Ben actually has speed feats. Nappa has none other than comparing his speed to other characters, so if you allow that to determine his speed, you have to allow it on both sides.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 22, 2010)

if you go by that logic, Batman can blitz nappa's ass.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 22, 2010)

Es said:


> My god that is completely retarded, Ben is shown to be superhuman , if he has speed feats you can't just outright deny them.



my god, you have no bloody brain.
Batman has plenty of superhuman feats and has tagged fast characters too.


----------



## Soledad Eterna (Dec 22, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> At least Ben actually has speed feats. Nappa has none other than comparing his speed to other characters, so if you allow that to determine his speed, you have to allow it on both sides.



Though not a speed feat of him directly, his two finger attack covered an entire city in an instant.


----------



## Banhammer (Dec 22, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Hypocrite, you're judging Nappa by his one best feat but ignoring Ben's feats.
> 
> is all that one of Nappa's best attacks did and even Piccolo thought it was impressive



Why does the crater go dark less than one foot in?


----------



## Endless Mike (Dec 22, 2010)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> my god, you have no bloody brain.
> Batman has plenty of superhuman feats and has tagged fast characters too.



Except he's human with no superhuman powers. Come on.



Banhammer said:


> Why does the crater go dark less than one foot in?



I'm guessing the ground was scorched by the heat and thus became black


----------



## Soledad Eterna (Dec 22, 2010)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> my god, you have no bloody brain.
> Batman has plenty of superhuman feats and has tagged fast characters too.



If we go by your logic, then every speed feat in DB is debunked by the fact that even in the Buu arc they can be seen by normal humans.


----------



## Banhammer (Dec 22, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> I'm guessing the ground was scorched by the heat and thus became black






I find such guess unlikely. Unless the fight is taking place on top of the world's richest surface schist mine.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 22, 2010)

veget0010 said:


> If we go by your logic, then every speed feat in DB is debunked by the fact that even in the Buu arc they can be seen by normal humans.



thats the point, thats not the logic i go by.


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## Heavenly King (Dec 22, 2010)

veget0010 said:


> If we go by your logic, then every speed feat in DB is debunked by the fact that even in the Buu arc they can be seen by normal humans.



very true lol


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## Uncle Phantom (Dec 22, 2010)

What speed is Nappa, Endless Mike?

Just want an honest opinion is all.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 22, 2010)

Eternal Sleep said:


> What speed is Nappa, Endless Mike?
> 
> Just want an honest opinion is all.



Going by powerscaling? At least mach 10, at most mach 30.


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## Uncle Phantom (Dec 22, 2010)

So the Thing punches at 7,700 mph on a regular basis, bare minimuim?


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## Endless Mike (Dec 22, 2010)

He can certainly react to attacks that fast and faster, as he has canonically done so


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## Uncle Phantom (Dec 22, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> He can certainly react to attacks that fast and faster, as he has canonically done so



and Nappa is canonically faster than a guy who can dodge an attack that reached the moon at lightspeeds.

Let's not use inconsistent shit, kay Mike.

Now, I ask again, does The Thing, regualry punch at 7,700 mph?


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## Endless Mike (Dec 22, 2010)

How is it inconsistent? It happens on a regular basis.


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## Uncle Phantom (Dec 22, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> How is it inconsistent? It happens on a regular basis.



The Thing does not routinely smack down opponent's who are casually hypersonic.

The only time he ever does, is when he is fighting them with the aid of his team.

Burden of proof is on you to show that The Thing normally exhibit's that type of speed when he is fighting a character by himself. Getting the jump on a character, while he is fighting two or three other people doesn't count, because they are distracted, and are not completely focused to dodge Ben's haymaker's at thier optimum speed.

Nappa is faster than The Thing, you know this. The downplay you are trying to pull is sickening.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 22, 2010)

Yes, actually he does. I can list examples if you want.

You're the only one downplaying here.


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## Uncle Phantom (Dec 22, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Yes, actually he does. I can list examples if you want.
> 
> You're the only one downplaying here.



I'm not downplaying by stating The Thing, a confirmed non speedster, normally does not display punching speeds of 7,700 mph.

List the examples and the circumstances involving each example.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 22, 2010)

"Non - speedster"? WTF is that even supposed to mean. If he had the speed feats, they count.

One was posted already in this thread, as he smacked WWH in the face. Another was in FF#48, first appearance of the Silver Surfer, and he clocked him (didn't hurt him, but he did hit him). He had an extended fight with Captain Mar-Vell who has flown at FTL speed through space and reacted to lasers from point - blank after they were fired. That's just off the top of my head.


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Dec 22, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> "Non - speedster"? WTF is that even supposed to mean. If he had the speed feats, they count.
> 
> One was posted already in this thread, as he smacked WWH in the face. Another was in FF#48, first appearance of the Silver Surfer, and he clocked him (didn't hurt him, but he did hit him). He had an extended fight with Captain Mar-Vell who has flown at FTL speed through space and reacted to lasers from point - blank after they were fired. That's just off the top of my head.



The Hulk is not a speedster, just has incredible reaction speed, to the point where he can tag FTL characters.

Doesn't count, because Hulk clearly was not making an effort to dodge it.

The Silver Surfer incident, he wasn't fighting him by himself, nor was Silver Surfer moving at his optimium speed when said occurrence happenend. Try again.

Captain Mar-Vel scan please. Either it's a severe outlier or the circumstance regarding the fight, allowed combat to ensue between the two. The Thing is nowhere near punching at FTL speeds.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 22, 2010)

Eternal Sleep said:


> The Hulk is not a speedster, just has incredible reaction speed, to the point where he can tag FTL characters.



And he didn't react to Ben's punch.



> Doesn't count, because Hulk clearly was not making an effort to dodge it.



Why not? It was enough to give him a bloody lip.



> The Silver Surfer incident, he wasn't fighting him by himself,



Yes he was. Read the comic. The rest of the team was elsewhere.



> nor was Silver Surfer moving at his optimium speed when said occurrence happenend. Try again.



Too bad Surfer can react and move from standing still to super speed incredibly fast.



> Captain Mar-Vel scan please. Either it's a severe outlier or the circumstance regarding the fight, allowed combat to ensue between the two. The Thing is nowhere punching at FTL speeds.



Never said he was, just fast enough to hit fast characters.

And if you're just going to nitpick every example, I could do the same thing to random DBZ feats and eventually come to the conclusion that no one in DBZ was more than a citybuster and they were all slower than sound. That's the same level of downplaying you're doing here.

(Keep in mind I think Nappa can win if he sticks to ranged attacks but if he goes HtH he's getting owned).


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## Captain America (Dec 23, 2010)

I'd give it to Nappa.

Nappa is stronger than 23rd Budokai Piccolo who can do this:


*Spoiler*: __ 



[img=500x700]http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/5679/161007fm1.gif[/img][img=500x700]http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9481/161008ox1.gif[/img]
[img=500x700]http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7843/161009ej9.gif[/img][img=500x700]http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/1605/161010of7.gif[/img]
[img=500x700]http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/2452/161011tf8.gif[/img][img=500x700]http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8021/161012jk8.gif[/img]


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## Nevermind (Dec 23, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> (Keep in mind I think Nappa can win if he sticks to ranged attacks but if he goes HtH he's getting owned).



That's pretty much been the theme all throughout this thread.

Say this fight were run 1000 times and I think Nappa would win the majority of them, though Thing would be decidedly superior at short range.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 23, 2010)

I can't recall if the power as weight trope is in effect for the thing.
If Nappa punches his, he'd most certainly break his hand, but it would likely sen thing flying if it is not.
Even Nappa is not stupid enough to try that again


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## Captain America (Dec 23, 2010)

I'm going with Nappa, since he's stronger than 23rd Budokai Piccolo who island busted.


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## Nevermind (Dec 23, 2010)

Captain America said:


> I'm going with Nappa, since he's stronger than 23rd Budokai Piccolo who island busted.



Yeah, there's no doubt Nappa's got more firepower, I just wonder about his durability in the case of Thing tagging him just once.


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## cnorwood (Dec 23, 2010)

can the thing survive a country buster?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 23, 2010)

cnorwood said:


> can the thing survive a country buster?



he'd be really fucked up..from such an attack..maybe too to actually muster an effective counter attack

but nappa being the massive moron that he is..may decide to play with Ben and that wont end well for nappa if CIS is in play



Azrael Finalstar said:


> Shouldn't be a problem.
> Thing isn't very fast on his feet.



yes he is..to the point where he';s thunder clapped out in coming ICBM's and kept pace with the hulk

besides if blood lust is off..and nappa has no scouter and no way of knowing how strong the guy is speed not relevant

Ben nails him and depending on how hard either caves in his skull or severely reduced his fighting capacity...and leaves him staggered then ben just bashes his face in

mind you if nappa actually gets airborn he can frag ben to death



Nevermind said:


> That's pretty much been the theme all throughout this thread.
> 
> Say this fight were run 1000 times and I think Nappa would win the majority of them, though Thing would be decidedly superior at short range.



the problem is your ascribing nappa a level of intelligence..that even underblood lust he simply completely lacks

this fuckwit was about to run head long into a god damn destructo disk..and is aside from recoom or what ever his name was..the dumbest moron in dbz...and habitually underestimates his opponents and charges into battle with out even paying basic heed to common sense

the idea of him some how developing the brain to fly away from ben and hit him with his best shot..as opposed to just in your face fuck with him...is not gonna happen..especially under OP conditions..ben absolutely has a chance here because unless CIS is off nappa is just too stupid to fight properly


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## Soledad Eterna (Dec 23, 2010)

^Actually he doesn't understimate his oponents that much when the battle starts. When he fought Tien he dodge all of his attacks despite probably not doing any damage is they landed.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 23, 2010)

veget0010 said:


> ^Actually he doesn't understimate his oponents that much when the battle starts. When he fought Tien he dodge all of his attacks despite probably not doing any damage is they landed.



he dodged all of tiens attacks because the guy sucked...and nappa was just dicking with him...chautsu hopped on his back and nuked himself to death because Nappa is well a moron...tien suicided and nappa didnt dodge because he wasn't paying attention..he almost got severed in half by krillen..and the retard decided to engage goku in combat despite knowing nothing about him

he's retarded the most retarded character in a series known for its characters being full of massive CIS


----------



## Level7N00b (Dec 23, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> he dodged all of tiens attacks because the guy sucked...and nappa was just dicking with him...chautsu hopped on his back and nuked himself to death because Nappa is well a moron...tien suicided and nappa didnt dodge because he wasn't paying attention..he almost got severed in half by krillen..and the retard decided to engage goku in combat despite knowing nothing about him
> 
> he's retarded the most retarded character in a series known for its characters being full of massive CIS



Actually, wasn't it said that last blast from Tien would have actually done some damage to Nappa if he hadn't blocked in time? I dunno, I might be imagining things.


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## Zack Fair (Dec 23, 2010)

cnorwood said:


> can the thing survive a country buster?



Nappa levelled a modern city, not a country.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 23, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> Actually, wasn't it said that last blast from Tien would have actually done some damage to Nappa if he hadn't blocked in time? I dunno, I might be imagining things.



i don't think so..its certainly possible but the big moron from what i recall didn't dodge it..at all though


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## Level7N00b (Dec 23, 2010)

Zack Fair said:


> Nappa levelled a modern city, not a country.



In base. By lifting two fingers. With no strain.

King Piccolo city busted with a power level of 260 or something like that. Piccolo razed an island after having the shit beaten out of him. And his power level was around 400, says that Daisenzu.

Nappa is over 4000. Do the math.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 23, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> In base. By lifting two fingers. With no strain.
> 
> King Piccolo city busted with a power level of 260 or something like that. Piccolo razed an island after having the shit beaten out of him. And his power level was around 400, says that Daisenzu.
> 
> Nappa is over 4000. Do the math.



while I have no problem buying Nappa being potent enough to level some countries...abc logic seems to be a pretty crummy way of going about it


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## Level7N00b (Dec 24, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> while I have no problem buying Nappa being potent enough to level some countries...abc logic seems to be a pretty crummy way of going about it



I don't love it either since it can massively screw things up for where powerscaling works nowhere near on the same principle. But, in DBZ, it's linear as hell.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 24, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> yes he is..to the point where he';s thunder clapped out in coming ICBM's and kept pace with the hulk


He's got good reactions, but like i said, he's not fast on his feet.


----------



## Zack Fair (Dec 24, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> In base. By lifting two fingers. With no strain.
> 
> King Piccolo city busted with a power level of 260 or something like that. Piccolo razed an island after having the shit beaten out of him. And his power level was around 400, says that Daisenzu.
> 
> Nappa is over 4000. Do the math.



Power levels aren't linear.

No matter, people weaker than Nappa have destroyed the moon before.


----------



## In Brightest Day! (Dec 24, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> Nappa is over 4000. Do the math.



Base Nappa is sitting around 4000. Full-Power Nappa is actually not too far behind Son Goku, who was around 10,000 during the Saiyan arc.


----------



## Level7N00b (Dec 24, 2010)

Zack Fair said:


> Power levels aren't linear.
> 
> No matter, people weaker than Nappa have destroyed the moon before.



Those are inconsistencies and aren't used, IIRC.


----------



## Purpledrank (Dec 24, 2010)

Thing kills Nappa then becomes ghost Nappa.
Thing commits suicide from Nappa annoying him and becomes ghost Thing and the eternal fight begins D:


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## Zack Fair (Dec 24, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> Those are inconsistencies and aren't used, IIRC.



Roshi I can understand _somewhat_, but he raised his Power Level massively when he performed the feat, and said Power Level wasn't recorded.

Piccolo's is inconsistent, too? I wasn't aware.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Dec 24, 2010)

Zack Fair said:


> Nappa levelled a modern city, not a country.



With an attack that could be seen from space...


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## Zack Fair (Dec 24, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> With an attack that could be seen from space...



Nuclear explosions can be see from space as well.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 24, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> I don't love it either since it can massively screw things up for where powerscaling works nowhere near on the same principle. But, in DBZ, it's linear as hell.



it's nt linear in dbz at all...other wise goku would be Gladiator/supes class in terms of strength and durability...




Azrael Finalstar said:


> He's got good reactions, but like i said, he's not fast on his feet.



if he can react to guys who have insane reaction time feats and has knocked away missiles of various velocity..yeah he is fast as all hell

the mans also an extremely skilled fighter and boxer he is going to be punching fast


----------



## Soledad Eterna (Dec 24, 2010)

Zack Fair said:


> Nuclear explosions can be see from space as well.



Only that this one appeared to have covered more than a city.


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## Zack Fair (Dec 24, 2010)

veget0010 said:


> Only that this one appeared to have covered more than a city.



That's speculatory.

The manga doesn't show anything further, but the anime just has the city destroyed.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Dec 24, 2010)

the manga mentions something about losing contact with multiple cities when Nappa did his little stunt, so it should have been way more than just one city

also, who cares about the anime


----------



## Level7N00b (Dec 24, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> it's nt linear in dbz at all...other wise goku would be Gladiator/supes class in terms of strength and durability...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmm, maybe linear was the wrong word. What I meant was, as power levels go up, logical scaling can be used to determine someone's power in DBZ.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 24, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> Hmm, maybe linear was the wrong word. What I meant was, as power levels go up, logical scaling can be used to determine someone's power in DBZ.



based on what though? there are allot of times where power levels or what they should be capable of tanking and enduring..arent what they actually do do.


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Dec 24, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> based on what though? there are allot of times where power levels or what they should be capable of tanking and enduring..arent what they actually do do.



A lot?

Enlighten me.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Dec 24, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> it's nt linear in dbz at all...other wise goku would be Gladiator/supes class in terms of strength and durability...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm just saying he has comparatively low movement speed


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 24, 2010)

Eternal Sleep said:


> A lot?
> 
> Enlighten me.



you have been by many posters across many threads

your too biased to actually understand it


----------



## Thor (Dec 24, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> Hmm, maybe linear was the wrong word. What I meant was, as power levels go up, logical scaling can be used to determine someone's power in DBZ.



I agree Logical scaling can be used in DBZ. If one were to read DB it make's it perfectly clear that if you have a higher power level you are automatically stronger in all areas than someone with a lower power level. The one and only exception to this was Ultra Super Trunks vs Perfect Cell, where Trunks was more powerful but he was slower than Cell.


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Dec 24, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> you have been by many posters across many threads
> 
> your too biased to actually understand it



Thanks for proving my point. Instead of answering the question, you insulted me and ignored it.

Concession accepted. There are not a lot of showings that contradict that DB is linear when it comes to power.


----------



## Havoc (Dec 24, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> That would be Blastaar,kicked Genis-Vell's butt


Should never happen, tbh.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 24, 2010)

Eternal Sleep said:


> Concession accepted.



I'm not conceding anything..I';m saying you should not be allowed to continue to contribute to this board



Eternal Sleep said:


> There are not a lot of showings that contradict that DB is linear when it comes to power.



right like.almost every other panel...I mean seriously now to the point where goku was horking up blood after being bounced through some small island by Freiza..and was taking similar damage when fighting buu..or how Vageta despite supposedly being more durable and powerful by several orders of magnitude..to people who could likely laugh off multiple mountain busters...nearly died from a hypersonic pile drive?

or how kid Buu despite supposedly being the weakest of the buu with the exception of the fat ass..just continuously plowed through gokus superior power level matched him..kept pace with him then just out right out lasted him?

or how goku who was supposed to be dozens of times stronger then freiza died from a planet buster...


----------



## Thor (Dec 24, 2010)

Havoc said:


> Should never happen, tbh.



Why not? Genis wasn't always at "Insane" levels. Blastarr beat him back when he was a regular nega band wielder.


----------



## Stilzkin (Dec 24, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> right like.almost every other panel...I mean seriously now to the point where goku was horking up blood after being bounced through some small island by Freiza..and was taking similar damage when fighting buu..or how Vageta despite supposedly being more durable and powerful by several orders of magnitude..to people who could likely laugh off multiple mountain busters...nearly died from a hypersonic pile drive?



Come on now Marvel has hundreds of inconsistencies too. I don't blame the writers at some point it just gets to complicated to draw fight scenes with ridiculously high power levels.


Even then its clear they have linear increases in power and durability.

All throughout DBZ the weaker opponents, when by a considerable margin, is unable to even dent the stronger one. This is to the point that it leads to Toriyama making inconsistencies.

There are just as many cases of a weak opponent doing his strongest blast/punch /whatever and the other guy completely ignoring it. This is clearly what is actually intended.



> or how goku who was supposed to be dozens of times stronger then freiza died from a planet buster...



Didn't Goku survive Namek exploding and go off in space?


----------



## Soledad Eterna (Dec 24, 2010)

Eternal Sleep said:


> Concession accepted. There are not a lot of showings that contradict that DB is linear when it comes to power.


If what you say is true, then why did Goku took 6 months to cross the snake way when he should have taken far, far less? Or when he couldn't catch Bubbles when training with Kaio-sama? Or when he had problems with just a 10 x gravity environment? Or not destroying large portions of the environment with their ki blasts at the end of the manga?


----------



## LostHanyou (Dec 24, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> right like.almost every other panel...I mean seriously now to the point where goku was horking up blood after being bounced through some small island by Freiza..and was taking similar damage when fighting buu..or how Vageta despite supposedly being more durable and powerful by several orders of magnitude..to people who could likely laugh off multiple mountain busters...nearly died from a hypersonic pile drive?
> 
> or how kid Buu despite supposedly being the weakest of the buu with the exception of the fat ass..just continuously plowed through gokus superior power level matched him..kept pace with him then just out right out lasted him?
> 
> or how goku who was supposed to be dozens of times stronger then freiza died from a planet buster...


I'd like to say power in dbzverse isn't really measured solely by destructive power, however this could just be trying to explain plot holes...  It seems like a blast from Freiza at mountain level+ power probably couldn't hurt end-series Goku, but a mountain level+ blast from Kid Buu could.  Even if Freiza were able to use his planet-buster on end-series Goku, it's really hard to imagine someone that much weaker actually killing him.

Using that logic, power level very well _could _be linear, but it doesn't necessarily mean higher power level = more destructive power.

You can't really use this logic in the battledome though, since it'd then be nearly impossible to determine how strong a character really is.  Still, it's not contradictory to the series itself, it just doesn't work in character vs character battles from other verses which have more reliable feats.

on-topic: Ben still wins :/


----------



## Stilzkin (Dec 24, 2010)

veget0010 said:


> If what you say is true, then why did Goku took 6 months to cross the snake way when he should have taken far, far less? Or when he couldn't catch Bubbles when training with Kaio-sama? Or when he had problems with just a 10 x gravity environment? Or not destroying large portions of the environment with their ki blasts at the end of the manga?



It is clear that Toriyama has no idea how much strength the characters should have to be punching each other through mountains.

When it comes to weight everything becomes consistently inconsistent. Goku can't carry over 100 tons by the end of the series.


The power blasts start getting smaller but we usaully say they must be more concentrated in strength.

I don't see how this contradicts linear powerscaling. 

Just look at Cyborg Freeza and Trunks:

Trunks has no problem what so ever chopping Freeza in to slices.

Piccolo/Krillin/ Gohan could barely scratch Freeza as he started increasing in power

King Cold couldn't hurt Trunks with his sword.

It should be more than clear that each opponent gets radically more powerful than the next, just look at how useless most of the cast becomes.


----------



## Havoc (Dec 24, 2010)

Thor Odinson said:


> Why not? Genis wasn't always at "Insane" levels. Blastarr beat him back when he was a regular nega band wielder.


Blastaar beat him just prior to Genis going insane iirc.

In which case, it shouldn't have happened.  He has been above Blastaar for awhile.

You realize him going insane didn't change his level of power.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 24, 2010)

Stilzkin said:


> Come on now Marvel has hundreds of inconsistencies too. I don't blame the writers at some point it just gets to complicated to draw fight scenes with ridiculously high power levels.



and the really stupid stuff is tossed out and no one seems to complain..do it to dbz? shitstorm



Stilzkin said:


> Even then its clear they have linear increases in power and durability.



to what extent? I'm talking superboy prime level panel to panel inconsistency in many cases 



Stilzkin said:


> All throughout DBZ the weaker opponents, when by a considerable margin, is unable to even dent the stronger one. This is to the point that it leads to Toriyama making inconsistencies.



and yet despite being usually among the low rung of the ladder krillen disc can kill and maim above his weight class...and Goku has sustained far  worse injuries from being knocked through mountains..to make any attempt to claim he can walk off a planet buster as serious



Stilzkin said:


> There are just as many cases of a weak opponent doing his strongest blast/punch /whatever and the other guy completely ignoring it. This is clearly what is actually intended.



and there are many cases where thats not the case..and author intent really does not matter over much just consistent showings



Stilzkin said:


> Didn't Goku survive Namek exploding and go off in space?



he cralwed in a space ship and it flew away or something



LostHanyou said:


> I'd like to say power in dbzverse isn't really measured solely by destructive power, however this could just be trying to explain plot holes...  It seems like a blast from Freiza at mountain level+ power probably couldn't hurt end-series Goku,* but a mountain level+ blast from Kid Buu could.*  Even if Freiza were able to use his planet-buster on end-series Goku, it's really hard to imagine someone that much weaker actually killing him.



why? it'd be the same level of power put into the attack neither would honestly hurt him over much





LostHanyou said:


> Using that logic, power level very well _could _be linear, but it doesn't necessarily mean higher power level = more destructive power.



is there anything that verifies this? or even justify the board adopting such a weird policy 





LostHanyou said:


> You can't really use this logic in the battledome though, since it'd then be nearly impossible to determine how strong a character really is.  Still, it's not contradictory to the series itself, it just doesn't work in character vs character battles from other verses which have more reliable feats.



you can't use this logic because primarily  powerscaling fails to take into account many things and involves generous hand waving at times..as well


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## LostHanyou (Dec 24, 2010)

I'm not promoting that logic (especially on this forum... that'd be bad) as I find it stupid.  I'm responding to your claim that powerlevel isn't linear, and that only.  It has no place here, but I disagree that powerlevel isn't linear in the series itself, since powerlevel doesn't seem to necessarily mean more destructive capabilities.  One with low power level can't harm someone as well as someone with higher power level could, even if the guy with the higher power level hasn't shown plant-busting feats.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 24, 2010)

I get what your saying and at one point it was linear..then toryiama realized that trying to keep numbers consistent hampers telling a story and it went straight to hell

which was more my point..its hard to take it seriously after that


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## Cooler (Dec 24, 2010)

If Nappa decides to and can raise his fingers faster than Ben can punch he wins...With CIS on though who knows what will happen, a non CIS hampered Nappa would take this no problem IMO but I wouldn't be surprised if Nappa tried to go h2h first...

As for PL's all it really means is person A can beat person B.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 24, 2010)

the last fight of the series was definitive proof that person A could not beat person B and could only win after a series of desperate gambits and a purification ball of good chi...

and the only reason why was slightly weaker person B had no stamina issues and could heal well


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## Goshinki (Dec 24, 2010)

Even if the thing wins he will  have to deal with something MUCH worse than nappa.

Ghost nappa! 

Link removed


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## Thor (Dec 24, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> *the last fight of the series was definitive proof that person A could not beat person B *and could only win after a series of desperate gambits and a purification ball of good chi...
> 
> and the only reason why was slightly weaker person B had no stamina issues and could heal well



So 2 contradictions out of 500+ chapter some how invalidates linear power scaling in Dragonball?

I see some double standards going on in this thread.


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## Cooler (Dec 24, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> the last fight of the series was definitive proof that person A could not beat person B and could only win after a series of desperate gambits and a purification ball of good chi...
> 
> and the only reason why was slightly weaker person B had no stamina issues and could heal well



Kid Buu wasn't weaker than Goku though...

Regardless I'm not sure why you're nitpicking, I wasn't arguing against you.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 24, 2010)

Stilzkin said:


> Didn't Goku survive Namek exploding and go off in space?



He escaped a split second before the planet exploded.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> why? it'd be the same level of power put into the attack neither would honestly hurt him over much



I have a theory to explain this, actually.


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## Thor (Dec 24, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> I have a theory to explain this, actually.



I'd like to hear it. -crosses legs- 

It's nice to know someone attempts to make sense out of DB.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 24, 2010)

Thor Odinson said:


> I'd like to hear it. -crosses legs-
> 
> It's nice to know someone attempts to make sense out of DB.



I've outlined it in some other threads, basically the idea is that ki attacks have two properties that determine how effective they are: The actual amount of damage they can deliver and another one, possibly similar to the frequency of electromagnetic radiation, that determines whether they can bypass/be more effective against the ki-based defenses of others. It's kind of complicated to explain, actually.


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## Zack Fair (Dec 24, 2010)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> the manga mentions something about losing contact with multiple cities when Nappa did his little stunt, so it should have been way more than just one city
> 
> also, who cares about the anime



Razing an entire city can be detrimental to neighbouring areas, which is likely why that was mentioned.

As for the anime, I brought it up to convey a point. The anime is portrayed to be superior in power when compared to the manga, and even there Nappa only destroyed a city.


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## Heavenly King (Dec 25, 2010)

another great thread by me


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## Level7N00b (Dec 25, 2010)

Zack Fair said:


> Razing an entire city can be detrimental to neighbouring areas, which is likely why that was mentioned.
> 
> As for the anime, I brought it up to convey a point. The anime is portrayed to be superior in power when compared to the manga, and even there Nappa only destroyed a city.



Just because the anime shows better feats, doesn't mean every single character is stronger. Sometimes feats are exaggerated in the anime, and sometimes they stay the same.


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## Heavenly King (Dec 25, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> Just because the anime shows better feats, doesn't mean every single character is stronger. Sometimes feats are exaggerated in the anime, and sometimes they stay the same.




dbz fans always fun to the anime for feats i don't see the differences from the manga and anime. oh wait, yea i do.. they most of the time use fillers


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## Endless Mike (Dec 25, 2010)

Level7N00b said:


> Just because the anime shows better feats, doesn't mean every single character is stronger. Sometimes feats are exaggerated in the anime, and sometimes they stay the same.



And sometimes they are less impressive, see for example Kid Buu's earthbusting


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## Nevermind (Dec 25, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> And sometimes they are less impressive, see for example Kid Buu's earthbusting



The funniest part to me of their using anime feats is that they claim Buuhan is a universe buster, but even if you accept it, the way he was doing it was rather shitty and wouldn't help at all in a high intensity fight.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 25, 2010)

Thor Odinson said:


> So 2 contradictions out of 500+ chapter some how invalidates linear power scaling in Dragonball?]



or like how piccolo and cells regeneration proved to be at several different points the game breaker in one instance allowing for a cheap shot that nearly killed goku..and in cells case..not only allowed him to neutralize a potent enemy..and come back even stronger?  or..how seventeens lack of fatigue issues allowed him to over come a stronger opponent?

or how about Freiza he has..the greatest durability feat in the entire manga..no character has ever come close to replicating on raw durability..while others certainly have via healing factors...and what have you...but "abc logic" vastly stronger characters where simply blown apart or outright killed by such destruction?



Thor Odinson said:


> I see some double standards going on in this thread.



oi vey



Endless Mike said:


> And sometimes they are less impressive, see for example Kid Buu's earthbusting



I thought it was more impressive..err rather his rampage across the cosmos was the clinching high end moment for anime dbz?



Nevermind said:


> The funniest part to me of their using anime feats is that they claim Buuhan is a universe buster, but even if you accept it, the way he was doing it was rather shitty and wouldn't help at all in a high intensity fight.



DBZ fanboys don't even get that right...and when you try and correct them they outright ignore you..

from what I remember Dende's explanation of it Buuhan was ripping holes in dimension..the resulting constant tears would of caused a bleed that would of destroyed everything..e..meaning the guy essentially caused a chain reaction..that might of done it..and was not directly out putting universe sundering power


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## Endless Mike (Dec 25, 2010)

In the manga he just blows up the earth pretty much instantly. In the anime we see a blast spread across the planet more slowly.


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## Heavenly King (Dec 25, 2010)

Nevermind said:


> The funniest part to me of their using anime feats is that they claim Buuhan is a universe buster, but even if you accept it, the way he was doing it was rather shitty and wouldn't help at all in a high intensity fight.




that's something kinasin would say


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## Soledad Eterna (Dec 25, 2010)

Nevermind said:


> The funniest part to me of their using anime feats is that they claim Buuhan is a universe buster, but even if you accept it, the way he was doing it was rather shitty and wouldn't help at all in a high intensity fight.



I don't remember that ever said in the anime, I remember they said he was a thread to the universe.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 25, 2010)

What's funny is that the DB Universe only has 4 galaxies


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 26, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> What's funny is that the DB Universe only has 4 galaxies



i thought it was sixteen with buu allegedly destroying like ten of them


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## Endless Mike (Dec 26, 2010)

I used to think it was 16 too but MichaelUN9 posted some stuff from the Daizenshuus that proved it was 4.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 26, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> I used to think it was 16 too but MichaelUN9 posted some stuff from the Daizenshuus that proved it was 4.



wow that makes claims like :buuhan could affect marvel the same way he affected his home universe or hell even ours" really..dubious at best 

so Buu canonically never galaxy busted in the back story the way he was supposedly said too do so in the anime?


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## Cooler (Dec 26, 2010)

In the Manga Buu was only stated to have destroyed hundreds of planets.


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## Nevermind (Dec 26, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> wow that makes claims like :buuhan could affect marvel the same way he affected his home universe or hell even ours" really..dubious at best
> 
> so Buu canonically never galaxy busted in the back story the way he was supposedly said too do so in the anime?



The manga says he destroyed several hundred planets.

They use the anime to say he's a galaxy buster but the shot of that galaxy disappearing was only part of a flashback as the Supreme Kai was telling Goku and the others about Buu's background, so it was not in real time. Furthermore the claim that he destroyed a galaxy only existed in the Funimation dub line of that scene. The original Japanese say that the galaxy was destroyed in a few years or something along that line...which makes sense when you look at Buu's MO: trapped inside that ball and teleporting with Bibidi from place to place.

Unfortunately, Japanese subs are hard to find online. But I'd gladly buy anyone who finds it a beer because I'd love to post that in the next MvC wank topic just to make them all look like fools (though that isn't particularly difficult) and shut them up once and for all regarding any claims of galaxy busting.


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## Heavenly King (Dec 26, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> What's funny is that the DB Universe only has 4 galaxies





i have said that so many time in my dbz debates. the dbz universe is a pocket universe some that zeus or odin can blink at and destroy it with no problem




Endless Mike said:


> I used to think it was 16 too but MichaelUN9 posted some stuff from the Daizenshuus that proved it was 4.



what i posted up
When most of the powerful villains on Earth had been defeated, Toriyama looked to the stars for new enemies and inspiration. Dragonball takes place in the East portion of the universe, which contains four major galaxies. While Buu destroyed the North, South, and West clusters of galaxies, killing their respective Kaioshins and Kaios (He absorbs the Dai Kaioshin), there is way too little information on those systems to put them in this section. Hence, only the East section of the Universe is displayed. A chart of the god hierarchy is displayed at the bottom of this page...




this is what mike posted up



			
				MikeUN said:
			
		

> Well I have many daizenshou' guides translated
> 
> But the  7 :/
> 
> ...


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## Nevermind (Dec 26, 2010)

You know, I was just thinking- since everyone seems to agree that this is a pretty cool fight, I can make a Deadliest Fictional Warrior special of it- not a full episode, but I can take the factors of these two fighters, run them through our little combat simulator, and get a plausible outcome (there will be some room for error of course, but remember this is just for fun), then put a 2-3 1/2 minute fight together and break down the results.

Would anyone want me to do that? Also if you do, getting some clips of combat of the two and suggesting a good background song for the fight (good music can mean the difference between a boring clip and an intense clip) would be helpful.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Dec 26, 2010)

I would if you need any pointers about Ben though ask me or the poster Ben Grim


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## Heavenly King (Dec 27, 2010)

nappa is to much of a fool


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