# Weakest character who can beat GER



## SunRise (Nov 28, 2016)

You know what GER is, right?

Fabulous


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## Crimson King (Nov 28, 2016)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> Yhwach


gets shanked by hobos like you

Reactions: Like 8 | Agree 1 | Funny 3 | Winner 3


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## BreakFlame (Nov 28, 2016)

Crimson King said:


> gets shanked by hobos like you



Wait.


Is crazy also getting shanked or is he one of the hobos doing the shanking?


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## Deleted member 244537 (Nov 28, 2016)

He can't be both?

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Freddy Mercury (Nov 28, 2016)

Ajimu

Oh wait, you said weakest

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Steven (Nov 28, 2016)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> Yhwach


yhwach change the future,where he(yhwach) has never been born.
or in other words: yhwach kills himself

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## lokoxDZz (Nov 28, 2016)

Yhwach quality is set to 0, that said if he had something worth to set to 0

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 3


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## Nep Heart (Nov 28, 2016)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Ajimu
> 
> Oh wait, you said weakest

Reactions: Funny 11 | Winner 2


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## Hachibi (Nov 28, 2016)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Ajimu
> 
> Oh wait, you said weakest



Ajimu is probably one of the weakest on the waifu tier-list you could find.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 2 | Creative 1


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## Keollyn (Nov 28, 2016)

RahXephon or The One King are good starts.


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## Fang (Nov 28, 2016)

Hachibi said:


> Ajimu is probably one of the weakest on the waifu tier-list you could find.
> 
> So she's still valid



Aijmuu can't do anything to GER.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Hachibi (Nov 28, 2016)

I know, I just worded it badly


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## Montanz (Nov 28, 2016)

Does GER have any defined limits?


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## Qinglong (Nov 28, 2016)

Anything well above universal is out of its known league

Reactions: Agree 2


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## egressmadara (Nov 28, 2016)

nobody below multiversal.


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## Sablés (Nov 28, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> Anything well above universal is out of its known league



I thought the same but "evidently", GER's ability to fuck with will necessitates precise resistance.


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## Atem (Nov 28, 2016)

The Stranger from Stranger of Sword City.

Should be low-multiversal.

The same with Piede who created two distinct realities at once. A replica of Escario, and an alternate earth.


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## BreakFlame (Nov 28, 2016)

Would acausality counter GER?


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## Atem (Nov 28, 2016)

Also, Death Knights from Divinity.

The guardians can't even make it past their enchantments without dispelling them first. At a point where they're more powerful than the creator of their universe several times over.


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## Darth Nihilus (Nov 28, 2016)




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## Expelsword (Nov 28, 2016)

Well, Sakura Kinomoto has multiversal Erase and Shield magic, and she'd die if you hit her with a bag of bricks, so from a certain perspective, her.


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## Montanz (Nov 28, 2016)

Dialga maybe?


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## Fang (Nov 28, 2016)

GER is arguably a low level multiversal itself.


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## BreakFlame (Nov 28, 2016)

Fang said:


> GER is arguably a low level multiversal itself.



How so? I only saw the King Crimson fight, did GER get anything else?


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## Montanz (Nov 28, 2016)

Why is that?
How do you reach that conclusion?
 his showings don't go beyond universal+


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## Fang (Nov 29, 2016)

BreakFlame said:


> How so? I only saw the King Crimson fight, did GER get anything else?



Present universe gets erased
KC takes Diavolo into a future universe during the time skip (hence why he's outside of normal cause and effect/causality) 
GER nullifies both while not existing during said time-erasure


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## Montanz (Nov 29, 2016)

That mainly relies on interpretations of KC's power doesn't it? or did Araki himself said something similar regarding the function of KC power?


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## Fang (Nov 29, 2016)

It has nothing to do with "interpretations". The present universe is erased temporarily as King Crimson skips ahead into a future one, its black and white. KC/Diavolo is immune to being erased like everyone else temporarily because KC generates its own dimension when using its time powers, just like The World does. 

That's what makes GER broken. It was able to retroactively nullify a power like that while technically not existing and restore time and space back to before KC did anything.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Nov 29, 2016)

Fang said:


> It has nothing to do with "interpretations". *The present universe is erased temporarily* as King Crimson skips ahead into a future one, its black and white. KC/Diavolo is immune to being erased like everyone else temporarily because *KC generates its own dimension when using its time powers, just like The World does.*
> 
> That's what makes GER broken. It was able to retroactively nullify a power like that while technically not existing and restore time and space back to before KC did anything.


I'm really not so sure about the bolded parts. Neither stand generates dimensions, one stops time, but the the world during the frozen time isn't a new dimension, the effect is just placed over the Universe during that time period. The same goes for King Crimson. It creates an effect that covers the already existing universe, that effect is that the points between point A and B in time (the times when the effect starts and ends) are erased as if the time is erased during the period, time functions normally but things that take place during the time period don't ever happen. While that time period is indeed erased, it doesn't create a new dimension to move around in during that period. It moves around in that same universe during that time that is erased/going to be erased (which one it is depends on interpretation but the latter makes much more sense if it happens when the period ends).

I'm of the opinion that GER can work on Multiversals, but I don't think its range extends past universal which can be a weakness in the OBD consider the scale of certain beings. GER is acausal because it can move regardless of the time erase period as well.


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## Montanz (Nov 29, 2016)

So essentially
KC removes himself from space time by going in his dimension->  KC erases time-> this action creates a new/ different future-> Diavolo goes here

GER nullifies that future while time is erased meaning he doesn't need time to function, but this bit is actually confusing.

All GER needs to do to stop the future universe from being 'created' is to restore the time that was erased, it doesn't require GER to be manipulating more than one space-time.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Nov 29, 2016)

There is no new dimension. That just adds a whole layer to the whole thing that really doesn't make as much sense as it just moving around in the current universe with the time being erased during/at the end of the time period is a much better explanation.


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## Fang (Nov 29, 2016)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> I'm really not so sure about the bolded parts. Neither stand generates dimensions,



Yes they do. The dimension is the immediate area or range of The World, same reason for how Crimson King does its thing and Diavolo is aware of what is going on. Time is its own dimension, space is its own dimension, and so on.

GER is acasual because it operated when it didn't exist, both time and space being erased on a universal level which is the side-effect of King Crimson on the present universe as it time skips ahead to a future one for 10-11 seconds. Thus its arguable GER is multiversal because both its range and influence extended beyond a single universe and multiple dimensions of time-space on said universal level.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Nov 29, 2016)

Why are you jumping on The World creating a dimension? It's more like a bubble of influence that spreads out all the way into space (I'm using Araki's wording for the range), creating a new dimension on top of the existing dimension which somehow allows you to affect the original one is far more complicated than it taking place in the original one and just stopping time. This isn't something like the Territories from YYH that are new dimensions that have to do with their abilities overlapping current ones because it hasn't stated to be. King Crimson is the same, but more complex because its operating during a period in time that while leading into the time afterward no longer exists. 

You can make an argument for it being multiversal in operating in both the cut off and erased time period as well as the existing time period, but claiming that the time period is a wholly new dimension or that The World does the same is a bit far fetched. 

What happened was that same retroactive negation that you mentioned above, but it made it so that it was as if the KC ability was never used in the first place which snapped them back into the normal timeline of events. It's as if King Crimson stuck that time period in the trash bin from your desktop, pressed delete and despite being deleted, GER made it appear back in the desktop.


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## Fang (Nov 29, 2016)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Why are you jumping on The World creating a dimension? It's more like a bubble of influence that spreads out all the way into space (I'm using Araki's wording for the range), creating a new dimension on top of the existing dimension which somehow allows you to affect the original one is far more complicated than it taking place in the original one and just stopping time. This isn't something like the Territories from YYH that are new dimensions that have to do with their abilities overlapping current ones because it hasn't stated to be. King Crimson is the same, but more complex because its operating during a period in time that while leading into the time afterward no longer exists.
> 
> You can make an argument for it being multiversal in operating in both the cut off and erased time period as well as the existing time period, but claiming that the time period is a wholly new dimension or that The World does the same is a bit far fetched.
> 
> What happened was that same retroactive negation that you mentioned above, but it made it so that it was as if the KC ability was never used in the first place which snapped them back into the normal timeline of events. It's as if King Crimson stuck that time period in the trash bin from your desktop, pressed delete and despite being deleted, GER made it appear back in the desktop.



Its not jumping onto "anything". The way King Crimson works is very simple. Think of the universe as being series of frames in sequential consecutive order. When Diavolo utilizes it, he jumps from the current frame into one beyond the next. The side effect of the time-skipping done by this is that the current "frame" is erased temporarily. Technically speaking, the universe in the present time does not exist, hence why cause is erased but effect remains in causality. That's why bullets shot at King Crimson/Diavolo while not affect him during the time-skip but they will still hit whoever or whatever is in front of them in the present time.

The dimension generation is its own little time-bubble. That's why Diavolo is outside of the effects of his own power, just like Dio when using the The World to freeze/stop time.

So the event literally breaks down:

Present universe = erased temporarily
Everything not Diavolo/KC = ceases to exist
Diavolo KC = skipped ahead to a future universe of the universe in a different period of time from the present one
GER = stopping this despite not existing between multiple periods of time/space from the void/non-existence.


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## IdioticGamer (Nov 29, 2016)

Anything above Universal? How about VSB's Universal Dante that's not SMT? :^ )

In all seriousness in that case I'll go with a guy who's Universal * 8 for destroying a universe, recreating it, and melding it all together. Aka Orsted/Odin



Too bad no one knows Live-a-Live


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## creyzi4zb12 (Nov 29, 2016)

Misconceptions about GER:
- People like to use the wiki for his abilities, that he can nullify cause and effect, when in actuality nowhere in the manga does it say he can nullify cause and effect
- What he can do is turn "action" and "will" and "death" to zero. Action and will and death is NOT cause and effect

What are GER's limits.
- He hasn't been shown to be able to defeat a multiversal characters (Heaven Dio)
- His statsheet says he needs to "hit" his opponent for his abilities to work.
(here's the best interpretation of his statsheet)

*Spoiler*: __ 




[\SPOILER]

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## creyzi4zb12 (Nov 29, 2016)

This is further evidenced by Diavolo being able to move and react to GER's attacks before they hit him.

- BeFore the beam hit KC, Diavolo could move freely. He was even able to react to GER's beam by bringing his hand up.

- GER needed to punch Diavolo for the deathloop to occur

- GER touched Diavolo when it went Requiem (possible explanation that it's not impossible to dodge getting "hit" by GER

- If you played the game, you'll notice that GER* needed to touch* The World Over Heaven to activate the negation in Eyes of Heaven.
- It's not impossible to avoid getting "hit" by GER's ability, as shown by Diavolo saying this on the panel.


*Spoiler*: __ 







[\SPOILER]

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## bitethedust (Nov 29, 2016)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> Misconceptions about GER:
> - People like to use the wiki for his abilities, that he can nullify cause and effect, when in actuality nowhere in the manga does it say he can nullify cause and effect
> - What he can do is turn "action" and "will" and "death" to zero. Action and will and death is NOT cause and effect
> 
> ...



>using shitty wording from an already known shitty translation as evidence

Lol. GER does not need to hit anything in order to work. That's as ridiculous as the "Crazy Diamond has to destroy things to affect them with his powers" argument. Like it was mentioned earlier in the thread GER worked before it even existed when it negated regular Gold Experience (and thus Giorno) dying from KC busting GE's head open with a punch. GER did that without touching Diavolo or KC. The text probably refers to whoever is affected by the ability rather than hit, as in struck by GER.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## creyzi4zb12 (Nov 29, 2016)

bitethedust said:


> >using shitty wording from an already known shitty translation as evidence
> 
> Lol. GER does not need to hit anything in order to work. That's as ridiculous as the "Crazy Diamond has to destroy things to affect them with his powers" argument. Like it was mentioned earlier in the thread GER worked before it even existed when it negated regular Gold Experience (and thus Giorno) dying from KC busting GE's head open with a punch. GER did that without touching Diavolo or KC. The text probably refers to whoever is affected by the ability rather than hit, as in struck by GER.


That was the old translation. The new translations adds a lot of unnecessary stuff, so it's even shittier.
At least it's better than clinging to the wiki interpretation, which is brews for NLF with it's_ "cause and effect"_ statement.








bitethedust said:


> d GER worked before it even existed when it negated regular Gold Experience (and thus Giorno) dying from KC busting GE's head open with a punch. GER did that without touching Diavolo or KC. The text probably refers to whoever is affected by the ability rather than hit, as in struck by GER.


The arrow was already on Gold Experience when KC busted his head open.
There were two attacks, one was a punch. Which probably did not kill Gold Experience
Second was the head busting, which GER shows up by some sort of molting process. During that time the arrow is already inside Gold Expereince
If GER did something that time, it certainly wasn't reversing action/will to zero since KC/Diavolo could still move after that
GER did not reverse the death of GOld Experience (regular), we can even see bits of pieces of Gold Experiences after the head bust


We see GER use a beam before any kind of reversal happens.
Before the beam hits KC/Diavolo, KC/Diavolo could still move  (raise up his hands)

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Darth Nihilus (Nov 29, 2016)

*Spoiler*: __ 
















>In a world where time is erased
>World


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## Darth Nihilus (Nov 29, 2016)

Even Dio says it during his battle with Jotaro


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## Sablés (Nov 29, 2016)

That wasn't meant to be interpreted literally nor have I ever seen that logic till today.

DIO doesn't necessarily mean creating a world where there's stopped time.

The stopped time where nobody but him can move is his world.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## bitethedust (Nov 29, 2016)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> That was the old translation. The new translations adds a lot of unnecessary stuff, so it's even shittier.
> At least it's better than clinging to the wiki interpretation, which is brews for NLF with it's_ "cause and effect"_ statement.
> 
> 
> ...



People have even said that the old (aka the bad) part 5 translation butchers characterization and yet the cleaner, better one is supposed to be worse? Lol. It's because you're basing your entire argument on a mistranslation, isn't it? Come on man.

Also someone seems to be forgetting that KC either oneshots or maims horribly anything it hits due to how much of a beast it is, strength-wise. Your explanation makes no sense with what's clearly implied in the manga aka GER already working. Without having to "hit" Diavolo/KC.


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## creyzi4zb12 (Nov 29, 2016)

Can post up the new translation for reference?


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## Darth Nihilus (Nov 29, 2016)

Sablés said:


> That wasn't have to be interpreted literally nor have I ever seen that logic till today.
> 
> DIO doesn't necessarily mean creating a world where there's stopped time.
> 
> The stopped time where nobody but him can move is his world.



Not creating a world, but a space where he can move and interact with everything outside of it that can't move when time has been stopped. Its range just happens to be universal 

Same with Diavolo in the sense that he can skip/erase actions/time when King Crimson is activated


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## Sablés (Nov 29, 2016)

Darth Nihilus said:


> Not creating a world, but a space where he can move and interact with everything outside of it that can't move when time has been stopped. Its range just happens to be universal
> 
> Same with Diavolo in the sense that he can skip/erase actions/time when King Crimson is activated


True but that would apply to everyone who can stop time and move in it (which is pretty much everyone who has timestopped before lol), besides the universal part


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## Darth Nihilus (Nov 29, 2016)

Sablés said:


> True but that would apply to everyone who can stop time and move in it (which is pretty much everyone who has timestopped before lol), besides the universal part



I don't know about all cases. Jotaro was only able to move because his stand was the same type as Dio's. Which in this case you may have a point. In the case of Diavolo, however, GER canceled out his ability and was able to move outside of time when it was being erased by King Crimson because of its ability to reset actions to point zero, which trumps KC's ability.


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## Fang (Nov 29, 2016)

Like I said before, just like The World with King Crimson its activating its own little bubble of range to allow Diavolo to interact with skipped time while not erased as a result of the time-skipping. Just as Dio isn't frozen in time despite The World's power doing it to everyone else. Either way, there's two different universes, the present and the future, being retoractively effected by GER nullifying King Crimson's powers.


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## Montanz (Nov 29, 2016)

But wouldn't the future be automatically affeced if he changed something in the present?
The action that leads to the future universe being created is Diavolo's erasure of time, GER only would need to negate this action and the future wouldn't come to exist in the first place, and given the fact he doesn't even need a time axis to work he could have done so even if the action was completed.


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## Fang (Nov 29, 2016)

He's not changing anything in the "present", he's jumping ahead to the universe 10 seconds in the future. You don't even seem to understand how King Crimson's power works. When Nero tried to grab Doppio, what happened during the time skip was the bullets going through him and striking Nero instead even though in the present he was there. That's why cause and effect aka causality is fucked over by King Crimon's time skip.

This is why I used an analogy of reality being like frames in a film. The present is frame 1, the erasure is frame 2, the future is frame 3. Diavolo moves from frame 1 to frame 3 with how KC's power works. GER was able to stop all this while in frame 2, as in, not existing. The events of the future happened, but GER retroactively restored everything before KC activated so that's why Diavolo was freaking out about his prediction being shown by the future not working when Giorno was supposed to be killed.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Nov 29, 2016)

so does made in heaven have multiversal now since he sped up jotaro's time stop


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## Montanz (Nov 29, 2016)

I was talking about GER there, when I said change the present I meant the timeskip itself.

Say frame 1 is the present, frame 2 is the timeskip,  and frame 3 is the resulting future from the erasure of frame 2.

GER only needs to negate frame 2 to stop frame 3 from happening in the first place, it doesn't require him to negate frame 3 as well.

And even so he was only effectively retconning a sequence of events that are contained within the same space-time so not seeing where multi-universal comes from.

Also, you said that GER's negation retconned the present as well?
But how does that work if the present is the starting point before diavolo takes action to begin with?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 29, 2016)

So what is GER's attack range?

How would he fair against characters who can insta-kill with hax from a universe or dimension away? 
*cough*Jedah Dohma*cough*


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## Fang (Nov 30, 2016)

Because its two different god damn universes. One in the present and one in the future.


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## almanar (Nov 30, 2016)

Hmm fayt leingod from Star Ocean maybe? His ability can erase GER to nothingness.


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## creyzi4zb12 (Nov 30, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> So what is GER's attack range?
> 
> How would he fair against characters who can insta-kill with hax from a universe or dimension away?
> *cough*Jedah Dohma*cough*


GER ability is not an auto-hit, cannot be dodged attack. GER needs to hit his opponents either by
*1.) A beam *(to affect Diavolo with the action reversal to zero he hits him with a beam)

*2.) A punch* (for the death loops to occur, he had to punch Diavolo/KC first)
rr
*3.) Touch* (in the game, GER needs to touch Dio to negate World Over Heaven ability)
or
*4.) Touching each other *(just a theory, [this is when GER was able to negate the death of regular Gold Experience]. It's also possible that it was a mottling process since GER just woke up at that time, and that GER really didn't need to do anything)
===
Dodging GER can also be done if you're fast enough as shown when Diavolo raised his hands up to block the beam.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Mr. Good vibes (Nov 30, 2016)

I always thought that this image best explained King Crimson ability.
​

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Montanz (Nov 30, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> So what is GER's attack range?
> 
> How would he fair against characters who can insta-kill with hax from a universe or dimension away?
> *cough*Jedah Dohma*cough*


At best you'd get a stalemate, the ability would "break down" and simply not work on GER the moment it reaches him.


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## Keishin (Nov 30, 2016)

I have no idea where the GER wank comes from.. DBZ characters are obviously overkill when they bust the entire planet.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 3 | Dislike 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 30, 2016)

Montanz said:


> At best you'd get a stalemate, the ability would "break down" and simply not work on GER the moment it reaches him.


What if said character's hax is stated *and *shown to override other hax that would protect against said hax? Said attacker's hax overrides, absolutely, in canon. It works no matter what, without reason, even when it shouldn't.


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## Qinglong (Nov 30, 2016)

Keishin said:


> I have no idea where the GER wank comes from.. DBZ characters are obviously overkill when they bust the entire planet.



GER negated its owner's death after it had already happened and set his opponent's actions to zero

Z characters get fucked


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## Keishin (Nov 30, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> GER negated its owner's death after it had already happened and set his opponent's actions to zero
> 
> Z characters get fucked


We have no idea what happens if someone manages to kill GER itself... And I recall the Almighty reviving yhwach after death because he can transform the future so Yhwach wins? Nothing is stopping him from changing the future to one where his actions arent turned to zero right? (that actually sounds like Ichibeis ink, too).

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 2


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## ho11ow (Nov 30, 2016)

The Flash may be could beat GER


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## creyzi4zb12 (Nov 30, 2016)

Keishin said:


> I have no idea where the GER wank comes from.. DBZ characters are obviously overkill when they bust the entire planet.


Probably from the wiki.

Also, GER's stats has a lot of NLF interpretations. For example, his stats are ranked as -NONE-, and people seem to think "none" means infinite.
*"World Over Heaven"* has a speed of A, and it was able to keep up pretty easily against *"GER"
*


Qinglong said:


> GER negated its owner's death after it had already happened and set his opponent's actions to zero
> 
> Z characters get fucked


That seemed more like a mottling proces instead of GER getting killed, similar to Echoes Act 2 transforming to Echoes act 3, and 1 to 2.


GER didn't reverse anything as evidenced by us seeing bits and pieces of Regular Gold Experience's skin after the event.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Fang (Nov 30, 2016)

Keishin said:


> We have no idea what happens if someone manages to kill GER itself... And I recall the Almighty reviving yhwach after death because he can transform the future so Yhwach wins? Nothing is stopping him from changing the future to one where his actions arent turned to zero right? (that actually sounds like Ichibeis ink, too).



No one in Bleach is doing anything against GER.  GER negated not existing while reality warping Diavolo into an infinite/never ending death loop. Yhwach isn't doing anything against that.



ho11ow said:


> The Flash may be could beat GER



Not likely.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1


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## Keishin (Nov 30, 2016)

Fang said:


> No one in Bleach is doing anything against GER.  GER negated not existing while reality warping Diavolo into an infinite/never ending death loop. Yhwach isn't doing anything against that.
> 
> 
> 
> Not likely.


It's already been pointed out that GER has to be in contact with the enemy, meaning its fucked against true intangibles already...
"Not existing" as in...? Diavolo doesn't have the power to wipe a person out of existence (this includes Memories)

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## Fang (Nov 30, 2016)

Keishin said:


> It's already been pointed out that GER has to be in contact with the enemy, meaning its fucked against true intangibles already...
> "Not existing" as in...? Diavolo doesn't have the power to wipe a person out of existence (this includes Memories)



Its been proven you have no idea what you are talking about. GER didn't make physical contact with anything when nullifying the time erasure created by King Crimson. It did not need to make physical contact to use its powers any more then Dio "has" to shout "Za Warudo" to utilize time stopping.

Yhwach isn't doing shit. He can't out-react GER because it exists beyond both time and space, he can't harm or effect it  because it negated being erased and not existing, it can reality warp and reduce his will and actions to zero. Game over. If you legitimately think anyone thinks what a certain dupe kun's posts are claiming are "proof" you are out of your mind.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Qinglong (Nov 30, 2016)

>believing crezyj's shit
>a troll so bad even Spergbattles doesn't want him

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## creyzi4zb12 (Nov 30, 2016)

Keishin said:


> It's already been pointed out that GER has to be in contact with the enemy, meaning its fucked against true intangibles already...
> "Not existing" as in...? Diavolo doesn't have the power to wipe a person out of existence (this includes Memories)


Don't listen to all the negative comments against you like _"you don't know anything"_;
You know a lot. You just have a different interpretation than them.

The best way to beat GER without any problems is to go a few steps beyond Universal (just to be sure [also to avoid any arguments against the Jojofans]). Don't go anything below that (just to be sure).
==========================================================

OTOH:
Yhwach, I think would be the best example of a low-end character (probably non-Universal to low-end Universal) that has the potential to defeat GER as he can negate the negation before his negating ability gets negated (Eyes of Yhwach). Coz he can see in the future, and probably has better future sense than GER.

Reactions: Dislike 4


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## bitethedust (Nov 30, 2016)

Keishin said:


> It's already been pointed out that GER has to be in contact with the enemy, meaning its fucked against true intangibles already...
> "Not existing" as in...? Diavolo doesn't have the power to wipe a person out of existence (this includes Memories)



Pointed out by who? Oh that's right, someone who's entire argument relies on his own interpretation of how GER works based on a shit translation. LOL.



creyzi4zb12 said:


> Probably from the wiki.
> 
> Also, GER's stats has a lot of NLF interpretations. For example, his stats are ranked as -NONE-, and people seem to think "none" means infinite.
> *"World Over Heaven"* has a speed of A, and it was able to keep up pretty easily against *"GER"
> ...



Basically any character with universal reality warping would get fucked over by someone with multiversal reality warping given they both have the same or similar abilities. The World Over Heaven also happens to be the strongest Stand in JoJo with even stronger reality warping powers than GER so, your point is...?


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## creyzi4zb12 (Nov 30, 2016)

bitethedust said:


> Pointed out by who? Oh that's right, someone who's entire argument relies on his own interpretation of how GER works based on a shit translation. LOL.


If you read properly, you'll realize that I'm not just basing my argument on the translation alone.

But just to be sure, can post up the one which you think is a better translation?

Reactions: Dislike 4


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## Hachibi (Nov 30, 2016)

Relevant:


KC isn't that difficult to understand thank to the ever relevant TV Remote Jojo

Reactions: Like 5 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## bitethedust (Nov 30, 2016)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> If you read properly, you'll realize that I'm not just basing my argument on the translation alone.
> 
> But just to be sure, can post up the one which you think is a better translation?



>makes claim based entirely on a translation (since the basis to everything you say is that GER has to hit the enemy to work which is again founded on the shitty scans)
>gets told to actually use good evidence
>"you post the good translation instead!"

lol

Alongside the many scans showing how bad the part 5 translation is comparing it with Japanese scans, there is one floating around, IIRC done by the JoJo project (same guys who did the color scans/currently translating the black-and-white part 5 scans) that translated the GER Stand sheet page but I don't have it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Freddy Mercury (Nov 30, 2016)

I just don't understand where multiversal GER came from.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Montanz (Nov 30, 2016)

Keishin said:


> It's already been pointed out that GER has to be in contact with the enemy, meaning its fucked against true intangibles already...



Stands are intangible to begin with, and they interact with eachother, regardless GER can turn vague concepts such as will to zero, that is not something you can even argue to be tangible.


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 30, 2016)

Can GER negate actions caused as collateral damage to another action? IE, being able to undo the universe's destruction after said attacker destroys said verse by collapsing it as a collateral damage to a different attack? 

Also, how does GER negate causes that are non-attacks? How does GER know when to take action? Ala, characters whose sole power is the power of suggestion? 

Also, I was informed that *on this site*, a user's hax is vulnerable to attacks outside of its canon. Said power would not work on _"exotic"_ attack methods. I don't agree but those were stated to be the rules.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 30, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> Can GER negate actions caused as collateral damage to another action? IE, being able to undo the universe's destruction after said attacker destroys said verse by collapsing it as a collateral damage to a different attack?
> 
> Also, how does GER negate causes that are non-attacks? How does GER know when to take action? Ala, characters whose sole power is the power of suggestion?



GER is acausal, it doesn't have to pick the best time to tack action because for it, it's always the best time to take action.

Let's say you shoot a bullet into a room with Giorno in it, you're not shooting at Giorno but you have a special bullet that will keep bouncing around the room until eventually it hits him. It doesn't matter how long you have to wait, GER will already have negated this action _before _you even take it.



Perpetrator Rex said:


> Also, I was informed that *on this site*, a user's hax is vulnerable to attacks outside of its canon. Said power would not work on _"exotic"_ attack methods. I don't agree but those were stated to be the rules.



No you weren't, don't try and misrepresent things because you're annoyed that your arguments have been debunked in some other thread.


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## Perpetrator Rex (Dec 1, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> GER is acausal, it doesn't have to pick the best time to tack action because for it, it's always the best time to take action.
> 
> Let's say you shoot a bullet into a room with Giorno in it, you're not shooting at Giorno but you have a special bullet that will keep bouncing around the room until eventually it hits him. It doesn't matter how long you have to wait, GER will already have negated this action _before _you even take it.



Thank you for the explanation.



Nighty the Mighty said:


> No you weren't, don't try and misrepresent things because you're annoyed that your arguments have been debunked in some other thread.


You have me confused with someone else. In fact, I know you do, because that is literally what I was told. I can link you to the thread. In fact, I will.



Now please, I beg of you, is it possible that if I misunderstood something, that it can be explained to me without the fucking hostility? Anger is totally unnecessary. Put aside the bias and just explain to me how the quoted is not what I just said happened. 

For the record, *I AM NOT MAKING AN ARGUMENT FOR OR AGAINST PEOPLE'S FAVORITE CHARACTER. I AM JUST ASKING QUESTIONS. *

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## creyzi4zb12 (Dec 1, 2016)

bitethedust said:


> >makes claim based entirely on a translation (since the basis to everything you say is that GER has to hit the enemy to work which is again founded on the shitty scans)
> >gets told to actually use good evidence
> >"you post the good translation instead!"
> 
> ...


Okay, okay...that's cool I will also try to look for some. 

There are some I've found, but either they weer the same or they were very bad (Like renaming Sex Pistols as "_Jet Plane Landing_" WTF!)

Reactions: Funny 1


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## creyzi4zb12 (Dec 1, 2016)

On second thought, I don't think I have that much time right now
=========================================
I will chill over here and wait.  

After all, I am very open minded.


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## RandomLurker (Dec 1, 2016)

Would't Heaven Ascended DIO from Eyes of Heaven be the weakest known character that can beat GER since we actually saw him do it? For a high level reality warper HA Dio has a pretty exploitable weakness in that his reality warping only works through the hands of The World Over Heaven, which makes him the weakest I can think of.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MusubiKazesaru (Dec 1, 2016)

I mean it's a non-canon game but the fact that it happened means that it shouldn't be an infallible power. Acausal character might also resist GER in general.


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## xenos5 (Dec 1, 2016)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> I mean it's a non-canon game but the fact that it happened means that it shouldn't be an infallible power. *Acausal character might also resist GER in general.*



So would the time ring grant Black resistance since it grants him some level of acausality?


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## Huey Freeman (Dec 1, 2016)

I don't think the Flash can beat GER directly, but he sure can reset the entire Multiverse timeline and fuck it that way like how he created Flashpoint


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## Masterblack06 (Dec 1, 2016)

Would not valiant solar be able to do it?


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## almanar (Dec 1, 2016)

Strong time manipulation skill can't do anything to this GER?


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## xenos5 (Dec 1, 2016)

Fang said:


> Fuck no.



Well. I was just going off of what Musubi was saying about Acausal characters possibly resisting GER. Are you saying that, that's wrong or that the time ring doesn't give Black powerful enough acausality?


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## Fang (Dec 1, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Well. I was just going off of what Musubi was saying about Acausal characters possibly resisting GER. Are you saying that, that's wrong or that the time ring doesn't give Black powerful enough acausality?



Nothing in DBS is surviving GER.

One could argue Hyper Kabuto might survive GER by being acasual given the nature of how his time powers work, but time ring is not giving any protection against its powers.


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## xenos5 (Dec 1, 2016)

Fang said:


> Nothing in DBS is surviving GER.



That doesn't really answer my question...


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## Fang (Dec 1, 2016)

Refresh son.


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## Nep Heart (Dec 1, 2016)

Golden Experience Requiem is closer to a conceptual attack and defense seeing as it not only affects actions, but will and death too. Don't think it would be bound to causality itself, but causality is one of the things it manipulates. It was pointed out that GER affected a world where time was voided, don't think Time Ring is enough to defend from a conceptual attack that doesn't give much damn about timeflow.

Ninja'd

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## creyzi4zb12 (Dec 1, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> So would the time ring grant Black resistance since it grants him some level of acausality?


It probably would, so would Whis' time shield as well since time powers in DBS are multiversal.

Since DBZ time manipulation is multiversal (that's 12 times  higher than time manipulation in Jojoverse) as shown when Whis and Beerus were spying on Present-Zamasu killing his master, Whis reversed time in more than one universe.

Since GER was not able to survive Universal Time Fast Forward by Made in Heaven, he should not be able to resist Whis and other time powers in DBS (who are 12x higher than time manipulation in Jojoverse)

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## bitethedust (Dec 1, 2016)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> It probably would, so would Whis' time shield as well since time powers in DBS are multiversal.
> 
> Since DBZ time manipulation is multiversal (that's 12 times  higher than time manipulation in Jojoverse) as shown when Whis and Beerus were spying on Present-Zamasu killing his master, Whis reversed time in more than one universe.
> 
> Since GER was not able to survive Universal Time Fast Forward by Made in Heaven, he should not be able to resist Whis and other time powers in DBS (who are 12x higher than time manipulation in Jojoverse)



I'm pretty sure Araki didn't involve Giorno in part 6 because it was meant to be Jolyne's story and he wanted to wrap up the original Jojoverse. It has nothing to do with powerlevels. In fact given Araki's track record of forgetting what Giorno can or can't do given he never used a lot of abilities from GE, he could've simply forgotten in the same way he forgot to bring every useful ally from earlier parts. It fits in with what I mentioned earlier, that it was supposed to be Jolyne's story and not something full of references and nods to earlier parts like SBR.


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## Freddy Mercury (Dec 1, 2016)

bitethedust said:


> I'm pretty sure Araki didn't involve Giorno in part 6 because it was meant to be Jolyne's story and he wanted to wrap up the original Jojoverse. It has nothing to do with powerlevels. In fact given Araki's track record of forgetting what Giorno can or can't do given he never used a lot of abilities from GE, he could've simply forgotten in the same way he forgot to bring every useful ally from earlier parts. It fits in with what I mentioned earlier, that it was supposed to be Jolyne's story and not something full of references and nods to earlier parts like SBR.



>Forgot Giorno
>In a story with 3 more of Dio's son appearing out of nowhere

Ok... Just stick with the theory that he lost GER the moment the arrow left Gold Experience, it makes more sense than Araki pulling a full Toriyama


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## Blakk Jakk (Dec 1, 2016)

bitethedust said:


> I'm pretty sure Araki didn't involve Giorno in part 6 because it was meant to be Jolyne's story and he wanted to wrap up the original Jojoverse. It has nothing to do with powerlevels. In fact given Araki's track record of forgetting what Giorno can or can't do given he never used a lot of abilities from GE, he could've simply forgotten in the same way he forgot to bring every useful ally from earlier parts. It fits in with what I mentioned earlier, that it was supposed to be Jolyne's story and not something full of references and nods to earlier parts like SBR.


Non-canon evidence I'll admit but the games have regularly portrayed GER as being immune or highly resistant at the least to MIH.

The truth of the matter is we have no idea what happened to Giorno. All we really know is that Giorno was in Florida during Part 6.

I've read somewhere that Araki wanted Giorno in Part 6 but given how broken GER is, would have defeated MIH and rendered the ending null and void. Can anyone confirm this?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## bitethedust (Dec 1, 2016)

Freddie Mercury said:


> >Forgot Giorno
> >In a story with 3 more of Dio's son appearing out of nowhere
> 
> Ok... Just stick with the theory that he lost GER the moment the arrow left Gold Experience, it makes more sense than Araki pulling a full Toriyama



GER was never stated to be lost, the only thing people base that on is the arrow falling off and GER not appearing in part 6. Non-Requiem Stands that got upgraded by the arrow like KQ didn't lose their powers afterwards either, that'd be silly. Giorno even retains GER with no mention of the arrow in the noncanon Purple Haze Feedback novel.


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## Freddy Mercury (Dec 1, 2016)

bitethedust said:


> GER was never stated to be lost, the only thing people base that on is the arrow falling off and GER not appearing in part 6. Non-Requiem Stands that got upgraded by the arrow like KQ didn't lose their powers afterwards either, that'd be silly. Giorno even retains GER with no mention of the arrow in the noncanon Purple Haze Feedback novel.



Then that doesn't help your case about GER being able to resist Stairway to Heaven. You can't just assume that the author forgot a key character from his series when it was only three years in between since Vento Aureo ended and Stone Ocean ended.


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## Sablés (Dec 1, 2016)

Think Araki  stated that GER can defeat MIH via its established skills though that should be obvious anyway.

If Giorno still  had it in SO then how did Pucci win? Either there's some range and limitation to what GER can perceive or Giorno lost  it. You can't even say Araki forgot since he mentioned Rohan in the same chapter the time forwarding occurred.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Qinglong (Dec 1, 2016)

if you go by the games then if Pucci tries to use MiH on Gio it fails

so either

araki ignored it because reasons

Pucci wasn't a thread to Gio

or GER somehow lost its powers when other stands affected by the arrow didn't

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Freddy Mercury (Dec 1, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> if you go by the games then if Pucci tries to use MiH on Gio it fails
> 
> so either
> 
> ...



That was actually my old theory about indirect attacks not activing GER.

But than again, using the game feats also means that Dio tier reality warping bypasses GER as well.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Montanz (Dec 1, 2016)

Fang said:


> Because its two different god damn universes. One in the present and one in the future.



But what's the basis for this?

Diavolo skips/erases time but nowhere it is stated that this action sends him to a different timeline, or that it splits the timeline in two between the future and the present, nor is it stated that changes in the timeline (ie GER negating diavolo's erasure) wouldn't affect the future.

From what I understand you're essentially saying that two points in the same space-time that didn't show to be independent from eachother are different universes.

Also GER can take effect outside of a time axis, so him negating actions before he was even born is only proof of that, not of his ability to affect different universes.


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## Fang (Dec 2, 2016)

Montanz said:


> But what's the basis for this?
> 
> Diavolo skips/erases time but nowhere it is stated that this action sends him to a different timeline, or that it splits the timeline in two between the future and the present, nor is it stated that changes in the timeline (ie GER negating diavolo's erasure) wouldn't affect the future.
> 
> ...



What are you babbling about timelines for? The present universe gets erased, as in it doesn't exist, but there's a future version of that exists with the dimension King Crimson generates as it skips forward. I already explained this with the frames in a film example earlier too.


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## Montanz (Dec 2, 2016)

ah fuck it, 
Maybe the terms you use are too advanced for me but I still don't get why KC erasing 10 seconds of time would make the future after that a complete whole separate universe when it could be interpreted as it just being the same universe except with 10 seconds of it not exising.


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## Fang (Dec 2, 2016)

>power works on a universe level
>present universe doesn't exist period
>future universe is where he goes
>that's TWO universes
"Are you sure its not the same universe even though the main one is erased temporarily?"
>"Why is he multiversal?"

I'm spinning my wheels here pointlessly.


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## Clutch (Dec 2, 2016)

Having not read JoJo, falling in love with the old 2D fighter and that's it, I find GER to be very confusing.

How does it assess threats? If I'm on some far-off perch in another universe, psychically manipulating Giorno, how does it know I'm doing that? How does it know it's not Giorno's own will? What if I just make Giorno fall asleep? Does GER see Giorno sleeping as a threat? If I sold Giorno coke and he got stupidly high, does he see that as a threat and undo it? Getting high isn't necessarily threatening. 

Is GER omniscient or something? When does GER know to take action? If Giorno doesn't appear to be under attack, how does GER know to do something and will it act against his will to do it? If I write his name in the Death Note from another dimension, how the Hell does it know that's why he dropped dead? How do you erase the cause of an effect if you don't know the effect?


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## SunRise (Dec 3, 2016)

^

Just what are limits of the GER?


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## SSBMonado (Dec 3, 2016)

So... if what Fang is saying is true, then KC has to erase, split and create universes/timelines in order to get what amounts to a 10-second time stop and precog. That is the most inefficient shit I have ever seen. 

Not necessarily saying it's wrong, just hideously inefficient. Like, what, you couldn't do anything more with the ability to erase reality? Come on.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 3, 2016)

he can just reverse Giorno's death anyway so killing either of them without going beyond their powers is useless.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 3, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> So... if what Fang is saying is true, then KC has to erase, split and create universes/timelines in order to get what amounts to a 10-second time stop and precog. That is the most inefficient shit I have ever seen.


no. i think what he means is he erases the current universe because the current universe doesnt have him doing wwhatever shit he does during the 10 seconds, the future universe does. its also not a time stop

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Agent9149 (Dec 3, 2016)

What if you seal it within it's own attack? Would that work?


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## Fang (Dec 3, 2016)

No, it wouldn't.


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## Keishin (Dec 3, 2016)

Fang said:


> No, it wouldn't.


Ofcourse it would because there are no feats of it resisting something like that...

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Fang (Dec 3, 2016)

You can repeat yourself like a broken record as many times as you want. That doesn't change the fact you have no idea how GER works, the way its powers operate, and its showings to think that'll actually accomplish anything.


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## Keollyn (Dec 3, 2016)

What about Ukoku? Can he get a stalemate now that a single sutra is baseline universal?

Seems like both would cancel each other's powers from what I know.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Dec 3, 2016)

How would BB from CCC's power interact with GER? She has the passive ability to erase any event leading to her being harmed as long as whatever is against her is of human origin.


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## Fang (Dec 3, 2016)

Keollyn said:


> What about Ukoku? Can he get a stalemate now that a single sutra is baseline universal?
> 
> Seems like both would cancel each other's powers from what I know.



Of course. Sanzou has always been universal level. :bmay



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> How would BB from CCC's power interact with GER? She has the passive ability to erase any event leading to her being harmed as long as whatever is against her is of human origin.



Death by hobos.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Dec 3, 2016)

Fang said:


> Death by hobos.



Could you elaborate?


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## Fang (Dec 3, 2016)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Could you elaborate?



She's going to get raped by GER just like 99% of TMverse. None of what you described would be an issue for GER to handle which I explained several times earlier.


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## Keishin (Dec 3, 2016)

Fang said:


> You can repeat yourself like a broken record as many times as you want. That doesn't change the fact you have no idea how GER works, the way its powers operate, and its showings to think that'll actually accomplish anything.


That makes no sense you think GER can do shit against something like a sealing version of uminekos conceptual red/blue/gold weapons just because while having no feats?


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## Fang (Dec 3, 2016)

I think you have no new arguments since your claims on how GER powers got rebuked several times earlier this week.


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## Nep Heart (Dec 3, 2016)

I don't see what's so difficult about grasping the principle of a power that negates "actions" and "will" retroactively honestly. GER is basically using causality and mind manipulation simultaneously to negate an action before it can even occur just from reading the basic description of its power. Can't use a power if you're intercepted in the past in the first place.


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## Agent9149 (Dec 3, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> I don't see what's so difficult about grasping the principle of a power that negates "actions" and "will" retroactively honestly. GER is basically using causality and mind manipulation simultaneously to negate an action before it can even occur just from reading the basic description of its power. Can't use a power if you're intercepted in the past in the first place.



Then can a non-sentient thing with properties and no free will be able to affect?


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## Nep Heart (Dec 3, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> Then can a non-sentient thing with properties and no free will be able to affect?



 I'd imagine the non-sentient being would bypass the will negation entirely, but still has to deal with just the causality negation only now.


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## SSBMonado (Dec 3, 2016)

So how would Monado III Shulk fare?
He blocked the hax of a guy who was powered by 2 universal gizzmoes, got universal reality warping and precog that might actually be able to predict GER's actions


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## Fang (Dec 3, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> Then can a non-sentient thing with properties and no free will be able to affect?



Sentience has nothing to do with it. If you attempt to take ACTION against GER, it will stop it. Qing posted the translation on GER's abilities by TS just the page before this one.



SSBMonado said:


> So how would Monado III Shulk fare?
> He blocked the hax of a guy who was powered by 2 universal gizzmoes, got universal reality warping and precog that might actually be able to predict GER's actions



GER negated not existing and even KC's precognition was foiled because its beyond time or space and therefore outside of cause and effect entirely.


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## Agent9149 (Dec 3, 2016)

Fang said:


> Sentience has nothing to do with it. If you attempt to take ACTION against GER, it will stop it. Qing posted the translation on GER's abilities by TS just the page before this one.



The non-sentient thing wouldn't be taking an action. It would be doing what it always does regardless of who comes into contact with it. It would be a force of nature. Like gravity. Gravity doesn't really take action against anything.


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## Fang (Dec 3, 2016)

Agent9149 said:


> The non-sentient thing wouldn't be taking an action. It would be doing what it always does regardless of who comes into contact with it. It would be a force of nature. Like gravity. Gravity doesn't really take action against anything.



Why would gravity work? Time didn't. Erasure didn't. Non-existence didn't. Space didn't. Casuality didn't. If GER deems something hostile, it won't let it do anything. It doesn't matter if its by a sentient or non-sentient being. Its power has affected concepts, I don't understand the difficulty in understanding this.


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## SSBMonado (Dec 3, 2016)

Fang said:


> GER negated not existing and even KC's precognition was foiled because its beyond time or space and therefore outside of cause and effect entirely.


And Shulk could simply purge GER's ability to do any of that.


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## Fang (Dec 3, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> And Shulk could simply purge GER's ability to do any of that.



Not unless Shulk is a high level multiversal entity.


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## SSBMonado (Dec 3, 2016)

Fang said:


> Not unless Shulk is a high level multiversal entity.


GER is high level multiversal now? Since when?


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Dec 3, 2016)

Fang said:


> Sentience has nothing to do with it. If you attempt to take ACTION against GER, it will stop it. Qing posted the translation on GER's abilities by TS just the page before this one.



So how would it negate BB's Potnia Theron? It's a passive defensive ability that erases an event leading to her being harmed. She doesn't have to consciously use it.


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## Fang (Dec 3, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> GER is high level multiversal now? Since when?



GER is a multiversal stand, and that's not the statement I posed to you either way. Don't put words in my mouth.



Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> So how would it negate BB's Potnia Theron? It's a passive defensive ability that erases an event if someone attempts to harm her.



By turning her will to zero. By turning her powers to zero. By turning her life to zero. Nothing in TM is remotely on GER's level.


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## SSBMonado (Dec 3, 2016)

Fang said:


> GER is a multiversal stand, and that's not the statement I posed to you either way. Don't put words in my mouth.


If by "muti-" you mean "two", based on nope-ing KC, then Shulk has that covered. 

Without any conscious effort, Shulk managed to cock-block the hax of a (by the same logic that has GER be multiversal) multiversal reality warper. Pretty sure that trumps KC several times over. 

And about this whole "beyond time" business and "coming back from not existing":
Given that GER himself states that his power is ability negation ("no matter who it is, they will be unable to use their abilities" or something along those lines), wouldn't it be a far more reasonable to assume that, rather than haxing himself back into existence, he simply never got erased in the first place?
I.e. KC erased time which failed to work on GER and while Diavolo was busy splashing blood in Gio's eyes (again, you can "erase time" and THAT'S the best you can come up with? ffs), he started to negate (or "return to zero" if you prefer) KC's ability.

Other than that one fight, is there ANY official material that confirms the "beyond time" stuff? 
If not, then him simply being able to "return stuff to zero" makes a lot more sense that him being able to "return stuff to zero" AND being beyond time, i.e. two completely random and unrelated powers.


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## Fang (Dec 3, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> If by "muti-" you mean "two", based on nope-ing KC, then Shulk has that covered.
> 
> Without any conscious effort, Shulk managed to cock-block the hax of a (by the same logic that has GER be multiversal) multiversal reality warper. Pretty sure that trumps KC several times over.



Pretty sure it doesn't since the rest of your posts already displays your basing this off a misguided belief on how GER's feats were accomplished.



> And about this whole "beyond time" business and "coming back from not existing":
> Given that GER himself states that his power is ability negation ("no matter who it is, they will be unable to use their abilities" or something along those lines), wouldn't it be a far more reasonable to assume that, rather than haxing himself back into existence, he simply never got erased in the first place?
> I.e. KC erased time which failed to work on GER and while Diavolo was busy splashing blood in Gio's eyes (again, you can "erase time" and THAT'S the best you can come up with? ffs), he started to negate (or "return to zero" if you prefer) KC's ability.
> 
> ...



Congradulations on not understanding remotely how GER works. Time didn't exist. Space didn't exist. The present universe didn't exist. Said dimensions and universe were all erased when King Crimson erases time as a side-effect of skipping time, GER was able to retroactively prevent that which is why it exists outside of causality.

So no.

GER was erased and everyone else save King Crimson and Diavolo were temporarily ceasing to exist with the present universe when KC activated.

That still didn't stop it from ending the erasure across two universes and through dimensions of time and space to affect the future universe that Diavolo was away, and retroactively nullified all of that as it happened so that it never happened in the first place. 

KC's power did go off, the present universe did get erased, everyone did go bye bye besides Mafia Godfather kun and his Stand, and GER stopped it as it happened.

You are wrong.


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## SSBMonado (Dec 3, 2016)

Fang said:


> Congradulations on not understanding remotely how GER works. Time didn't exist. Space didn't exist. The present universe didn't exist. Said dimensions and universe were all erased when King Crimson erases time as a side-effect of skipping time, GER was able to retroactively prevent that which is why it exists outside of causality.


Except Diavolo still existed, which proves that it is possible to exist in erased time without being "beyond time and space"
GER resisted being erased and therefore was placed in the same "dimension" or whatever as Diavolo. He then reset KC's ability to zero, which undid the erasure of the "past" universe.

I also asked whether there is any official material confirming that GER is beyond time. You didn't answer, so I'll assume that there is none. 

This is occam's razor. Everything in my interpretation can be summed up under ability negation, which is something the primary canon actually mentions. 
For your interpretation to work, GER would have to have the same negation powers AND be beyond time, the latter of which is never acknowledged

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## MusubiKazesaru (Dec 3, 2016)

Occam's Razor also goes against what you're stating the time erased period is by assuming the world isn't connected to the current one and is already separated from the rest of time despite how that time period functions for Diavolo.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fang (Dec 3, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> Except Diavolo still existed, which proves that it is possible to exist in erased time without being "beyond time and space"



Diavolo is immune to his Stand's own power. You are literally going against the simplest explaination for a convoluted claim that flies totally away from the face of events we're shown, which is him erasing time before GER actually does anything. This is almost as bad the arguments Freddie is making in the other thread.

Occham's Razor is on our side, not yours.

Also: erasing time across an entire universe which is the side effect of King Crimson skipping into the future would make it very clear-cut GER is not bound by time or space.


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## SSBMonado (Dec 3, 2016)

Fang said:


> Diavolo is immune to his Stand's own power. You are literally going against the simplest explaination for a convoluted claim that flies totally away from the face of events we're shown, which is him erasing time before GER actually does anything. This is almost as bad the arguments Freddie is making in the other thread.


- KC erases time
- Diavolo and GER both are immune to it and therefore end up on the same "plane" or "temporary dimension" 
- GER resets KC's actions to zero (i.e. the act of erasing time), which causes the previous universe to be restored

GER making abilities useless is actually mentioned to back up this interpretation, so exactly what is wrong with it? If you can explain to me exactly why the "beyond time" approach is more reasonable than mine, then I will accept it. 

"which is him erasing time before GER actually does anything"
GER became active the moment his transformation was complete. Did he have to do something in anticipation of KC's ability in order to be immune to it? Fucked if I know, but it doesn't matter either way because regardless of whether GER's immunity is passive or prepared, the outcome is still the same.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Dec 3, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> - KC erases time
> - Diavolo and GER both are immune to it and therefore end up on the same "plane" or "temporary dimension"
> - GER resets KC's actions to zero (i.e. the act of erasing time), which causes the previous universe to be restored



While Diavolo is in a separate future temporal version of the universe.



> GER making abilities useless is actually mentioned to back up this interpretation, so exactly what is wrong with it? If you can explain to me exactly why the "beyond time" approach is more reasonable than mine, then I will accept it.



GER operates on reducing actions and events to zero, not abilities specifically. So let me repeat the process to you one last time:

- King Crimson erases the present universe including time and space
- Everyone that is not Diavolo/King Crimson cease existing temporarily during the duration of King Crimson's timeskip to the future universe
- While "not existing", where the present universe is no longer in play due to KC's time-erasure, GER is able to nullify KC's timeskipping in the future universe and restore events and actions back to before Diavolo did anything
- This is why GER is beyond time and space. Because it does not need either to operate or to perform actions and its not bound by any flow of time, even a guy who is also outside the effect in cause and effect.



> "which is him erasing time before GER actually does anything"
> GER became active the moment his transformation was complete. Did he have to do something in anticipation of KC's ability in order to be immune to it? Fucked if I know, but it doesn't matter either way because regardless of whether GER's immunity is passive or prepared, the outcome is still the same.



GER let KC take action and still retroactively made it so he never did in the first place because that's how its power works. Its that simple. 

He wanted Diavolo to understand even with King Crimson's power, he could not change anything. Its simply a specialized reality warper whose power is to basically say nope to abstract things like human willpower, life, death, time, space, universes, causality, and so on.


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## Xhominid (Dec 3, 2016)

So Cosmic Armor Superman wouldn't even exist to GER...

At this rate, I see GER "weakest" enemies that beat it is basically Judeo-Christian God or the extremely high tier Gods in the Maharathaba(I know I'm spelling it so wrong). Because unless you can fuck with Abstracts and Concepts at a complete whole and is COMPLETELY unnaffected by it yourself, you are not beating GER. And you can still make the argument that it could defeat even them because they have sentience and thus things to turn to zero.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Dec 3, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> So Cosmic Armor Superman wouldn't even exist to GER...
> 
> At this rate, I see GER "weakest" enemies that beat it is basically *Judeo-Christian God* or the extremely high tier Gods in the Maharathaba(I know I'm spelling it so wrong). Because unless you can fuck with Abstracts and Concepts at a complete whole and is COMPLETELY unnaffected by it yourself, you are not beating GER. And you can still make the argument that it could defeat even them because they have sentience and thus things to turn to zero.




Please don't even open that bag of worms.


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## Fang (Dec 3, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> So Cosmic Armor Superman wouldn't even exist to GER...
> 
> At this rate, I see GER "weakest" enemies that beat it is basically Judeo-Christian God or the extremely high tier Gods in the Maharathaba(I know I'm spelling it so wrong). Because unless you can fuck with Abstracts and Concepts at a complete whole and is COMPLETELY unnaffected by it yourself, you are not beating GER. And you can still make the argument that it could defeat even them because they have sentience and thus things to turn to zero.



I think this thread has run its course.


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## Nep Heart (Dec 3, 2016)

I like how Fang actually mentioned GER's limitations earlier, but many people forgot that and assumed NLF instead.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Xhominid (Dec 3, 2016)

I'm sorry but damn, I can't think of any at all past them because of GER's ability working on a conceptual and abstract level.

EDIT: He did...because I don't remember seeing it from the 2nd page on.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 3, 2016)

With GER having multiversal effect it just knocks him up a tier, hes still not on the level of people like SMTs top tiers, Demonbane shit and Xenogears strongest people just to name a few.


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## Fang (Dec 3, 2016)

Exactly. It also doesn't hurt a lot of those characters in Xenogears, SMT, comics, etc...have more exotic abilities and feats like messing around with time and space on a multiversal level, altering and redefining rules of physics and shit like outright reality warping.


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## Keishin (Dec 3, 2016)

Nothing's been rebuked once. The author's version of GER has none of the wanked abilities you claim it to have. None.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 2


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## Fang (Dec 3, 2016)

Do you know what rebuked or refuted means? It means your nonsensical arguments that were about the same level of half-truth bullshit were swept aside at the same time Crezy was trying to ignore both the past and current restranslations. You offered nothing new, and repeated yourself ad naseum. 

Get over it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 3, 2016)

Xenogears has some of the craziest probability manipulation where they literally create endless universes till one has the desired effect and then they switch out the universe they are in with the one with the desired outcome.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Xhominid (Dec 3, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Xenogears has some of the craziest probability manipulation where they literally create endless universes till one has the desired effect and then they switch out the universe they are in with the one with the desired outcome.



And that's most likely why no one I've seen really use Xenogears in these types of battles...or atleast how I mainly seen it.


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## Agent9149 (Dec 3, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> With GER having multiversal effect it just knocks him up a tier, hes still not on the level of people like* SMTs top tiers, Demonbane shit and Xenogears *strongest people just to name a few.



Well that leaves 99.99% of fiction out of the question.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 3, 2016)

fiction has plenty of multiversal entities in it, some verses are chock full of them like SMT and Marvel or DC


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## creyzi4zb12 (Dec 3, 2016)

Fang said:


> Do you know what rebuked or refuted means? It means your nonsensical arguments that were about the same level of half-truth bullshit were swept aside at the same time Crezy was trying to ignore both the past and current restranslations. You offered nothing new, and repeated yourself ad naseum.
> 
> Get over it.


Oh, I'm the one ignoring stuff?
How do I ignore something that isn't there?

The current translations were never posted despite me asking for it *three times* in this same thread. (and you accuse me of ignoring stuff?)



Keishin said:


> Nothing's been rebuked once. The author's version of GER has none of the wanked abilities you claim it to have. None.


He accused me of ignoring the new translations despite me being open for a correction.
That just goes to show how biased that guy is on opinions against his own. You're not going anywhere with a conversation with him except insults and more insults.

*Spoiler*: __ 






creyzi4zb12 said:


> Okay, okay...that's cool I will also try to look for some.





creyzi4zb12 said:


> But just to be sure, can post up the one which you think is a better translation?


[\SPOILER]


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## creyzi4zb12 (Dec 3, 2016)

DOUBLE POSTED


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## Fang (Dec 3, 2016)

Whatever you want to tell yourself is fine if you like to invent more fictional accounts to feel better. You aren't worth the effort to bother responding any more to given your reputation is in the negative completely for a reason.


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## Keollyn (Dec 4, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Xenogears has some of the craziest probability manipulation where they literally create endless universes till one has the desired effect and then they switch out the universe they are in with the one with the desired outcome.



Admittedly, if it wasn't for the difference in power, GER's power would work on Xenogears characters. Save Fei and Elly, everyone's uses of PAS isn't passive, so GER would be able to nullify them before they could use it.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 4, 2016)

pretty sure it wouldnt work on Uroborus or Complete Deus either, one for being a higher dimensional enemy and being abstract most likely, the other for having fused with the Zohar. GER cant overcome the Zohar's influence


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## Keollyn (Dec 4, 2016)

Well yeah, that's why I noted the difference in power.Though Zohar doesn't actually do anything on its own, so stopping Deus before it can call upon its power would work.

But again, difference in power notwithstanding.

Edit: Oh, you're talking about merged Deus. Interestingly enough, I have no clue how it functions with Deus when they've become one.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 4, 2016)

even if they were in a similar power range i dont think GER could nullify the Zohar itself since its scale is > GERs and even Fei and Elly's use of it is operated based on thought.


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## Keollyn (Dec 4, 2016)

I'm thinking more the user before they take action. Being ineffective on Zohar is a given. Fei and Elly have the luxury of getting WE help at any given moment.

But someone like Grahf accessing Zohar would have his will nulified. Basicaly the window before using the power is what would allow GER victory over anyone save Fei, Elly and any higher dimensional being.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 4, 2016)

Can Grahf even use the Zohar at a level that would let counteract GER if he got the chance?


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## Keollyn (Dec 4, 2016)

He should. Outside direct power stats (when energy needs to be displaced), the scale of Zohar is independent of the user. Zohar finding and/or changing the universe that grants the wish does not need a specific level of power to do (this was mentioned in PW on how even normal humans can access these miracles). Only time it does seem to, is when it is going against multiple request at once.

It is the reason Kahn was able to tango with both Id and Grahf, which is something that should be literally impossible.

Only thing Grahf wouldn't be able to do is use Zohar to hit as hard as Fei. If he tried, him and his gear would blow up. Too much energy for him to handle.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 4, 2016)

Keollyn said:


> He should. Outside direct power stats (when energy needs to be displaced), the scale of Zohar is independent of the user. Zohar finding and/or changing the universe that grants the wish does not need a specific level of power to do (this was mentioned in PW on how even normal humans can access these miracles). Only time it does seem to, is when it is going against multiple request at once.
> 
> It is the reason Kahn was able to tango with both Id and Grahf, which is something that should be literally impossible.
> 
> Only thing Grahf wouldn't be able to do is use Zohar to hit as hard as Fei. If he tried, him and his gear would blow up. Too much energy for him to handle.


oh i didnt know that. i guess that makes sense


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## Keollyn (Dec 4, 2016)

Here's where that comes from 


*Spoiler*: __ 




"Ether" is a form of energy that certain people can use in conjunction with Zohar and works
much like the Slave Generator; since energy requests placed by humans are not subject to the
limits of a Slave Generator, a more precise amount of energy may be requested of Zohar.

Strictly speaking,* the phenomenon alteration that occurs while energy is being allotted to a
 Slave Generator functions similarly to the energy allotment process of humans*; those who
access Zohar can *change the outcome of events* through Ether.

However, the latter is more efficient at allotment because there are no boundaries or
limitations to the amount of energy *a human may request*, unlike the Slave Generator which
must stay within the bounds of its Energy Rating. This difference is stressed in the cases
of Grahf, Fei, and Id who can single- and bare-handedly destroy a Gear.

Humans (animus) who were created through Kadmoni from PERSONA can use Ether at birth; it is
rare to find naturally born people who can manipulate Ether

Even the raw human body can access and obtain power from Zohar..




While it is rare for natural borns, using Zohar is capable for any human.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## SunRise (Dec 5, 2016)

So who is the weakest after all? Some Multi-versal time/casuality/whatever haxxx guy from unfamiliar to me fiction (characters mentioned in earlier pages) or someone like World Over Heaven Dio? :>


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## Kaaant (Dec 5, 2016)

Surely HA Dio fucking over GER is a feat for him and not a bad example for GER as DIO already ignored GER's powers before even hitting him.


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## almanar (Dec 5, 2016)

I would like Trenia makai kingdom, will end this GER if she can. Dunno if her power enough to do that.


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