# Nagato vs Itachi.



## LostSelf (Feb 21, 2013)

Still seeing "Itachi oneshotted Nagato twice" arguments as a proof to say that Itachi can beat him alone when he did all this to a distracted Nagato.

Either way:

*Location: Edo Nagato vs Naruto and co.
Distance: Same as Nagato and Naruto at first encounter.
Knowledge: Manga.
Restrictions: None. Nagato can summon Gedo Mazo.*

Mobile Nagato but just like he was after absorbing Bee's chakra. He uses his chameleon to move. His chameleon has *THIS* speed (Since a lot of people assumed that it was the chameleon that moved Nagato).

Itachi is alive and his sight will deteriorate normally. 

Probably won't change people's minds, but let see.


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## Shinryu (Feb 21, 2013)

Bansho Tenin then human path


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 21, 2013)

No incarnation of Nagato thats fought has ever fought alongside his paths.

Nagato's had paths, but been emaciated, or has had no paths but is mobile from absorbing Gyuuki.

To be fair I'd say it was in his potential to achieve fighting alongside his paths with himself but he never reached that pinnacle in the manga(I actually wrote a lengthy piece concerning him never reaching his full potential). 

Nagato's been gimped in everyone of his battles, but so has Itachi. He doesn't have feats of fighting together with his paths.

Gedo Mazo isn't really a move Nagato'd use IC against Itachi either.

Unless Tsukiyomi works, Itachi has to feint Nagato to beat him imo since Nagato has so much more fire power and endurance. I don't think Itachi feinting Nagato is at all unlikely though as Itachi was able to feint Kabuto multiple times and Kabuto has better sensor feats than Nagato.


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## Joakim3 (Feb 21, 2013)

How many times does this have to be buried into the ground?

Nagato summons his _Pein Rikudo_, retreats and they and his summons proceed to wipe Itachi of the map.... if by some miracle he beats them (he wouldn't), Nagato himself destroys Itachi with or without Gedo Mazo



NothingMeansAnything said:


> *No incarnation of Nagato thats fought has ever fought alongside his paths.
> 
> Nagato's had paths, but been emaciated, or has had no paths but is mobile from absorbing Gyuuki.*
> 
> ...



Fighting _with_ paths is essentially the same as being present on the same field with them. Even Obito didn't "fight" with his _Pein Rikudo_, he used them and only jumped in when Naruto & Killer B where subdued, when Naruto entered BM he went back to being protected by Gedo Mazo

I see no reason why if Nagato himself was placed in the same position, i.e. exposed with no where to hide (in his emaciated state) he'd camp behind Gedo Mazo, while his Paths did all the fighting


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 21, 2013)

> Nagato was not mobile in either scenario (assuming the chameleon blitzed Killer B, not Nagato) so he can/has fought crippled before


That's true. Nagato is still deadly crippled I agree.



> Its canon that he (himself) doesn't need chakra receivers to control his summons (and by virtue his Pein Rikudo) as his Edo form lacked them, Obito being a prime example


I agree I think he can use any of his summons. But during the period of time he was revived as an Edo, he did not have any paths to summon, because they had all been destroyed in the(fairly rigged) battle of Konoha.

When he did have paths, he was emaciated. Hence, he should be in one form or another of his 2 appearances.
Himself and no paths.

Or Paths but he's far away.


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## Joakim3 (Feb 21, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> That's true. Nagato is still deadly crippled I agree.
> 
> I agree I think he can use any of his summons. But during the period of time he was revived as an Edo, he did not have any paths to summon, because they had all been destroyed in the(fairly rigged) battle of Konoha.
> 
> ...



Agree with everything stated


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## LostSelf (Feb 21, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> feinting Nagato is at all unlikely though as Itachi was able to feint Kabuto multiple times and Kabuto has better sensor feats than Nagato.



I disagree with this. Basically because Kabuto falling for Itachi's tricks puts him below Nagato in terms of sensing. While Nagato did better than Mu, who displayed very good sensing feats.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 21, 2013)

If Nagato summons his panda to take the hit from whatever projectiles Itachi may throw (if he can that is; seeing as Naruto - twice in enhanced states - was unable to do so) he can win. That's because he can use the Panda as a shield and literally finish with a BT + Human Realm, with the Preta Path absorbing whatever Ninjutsu comes in.

Alternatively he can summon Pain and they can do the same. 

_Or_ he can sue CT.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 21, 2013)

@TheIronMan
Can you jog my memory I don't remember all of Nagato's sensor feats. The most prominent one I remember was him sensing Amaterasu before it was used.

We also know he can pinpoint or determine location because he allowed Itachi to find Kabuto.

_Even with that_ though I still don't think he was on the level of sensing Kabuto demonstrated in his battle with the Uchiha bros.

Kabuto was running and jumping around on the ceiling etc without his eyes and relying on pure sensing. He also dodged a susanoo arrow without even looking at it, while disadvantageously hanging out of a snake's mouth.

What exactly did Muu sense that your comparing Nagato's sensing too?


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## KawaiiKyuubi (Feb 21, 2013)

Itachi can't beat Pein Rikudo. 

Itachi can't beat mobile Nagato.

Infact, I'm convinced that even the time he did "beat" Nagato, it was only because Kabuto was an idiot. There's absolutely no reason why Nagato couldn't have just used Preta Realm on Totsuka no Tsuguri and drained both the sealing jutsu and Susano'o itself. 

Itachi and Nagato are tiers apart. Aside from Tsukuyomi, there is nothing Itachi can do that could even damage Nagato. 

BT + Human Realm = GG


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## LordSnow (Feb 22, 2013)

Nagato stomps his face.
Itachi's doujutsu is inferior to Nagato's so genjutsu won't work.


If he manages to pierce with totsuka then he wins, but all paths are connected so....
gg
BT + human path


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## ueharakk (Feb 22, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> How many times does this have to be buried into the ground?
> 
> Nagato summons his _Pein Rikudo_, retreats and they and his summons proceed to wipe Itachi of the map.... if by some miracle he beats them (he wouldn't), Nagato himself destroys Itachi with or without Gedo Mazo



^^^ this in a nutshell.


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## Bonly (Feb 22, 2013)

Ahh the good ol Itachi vs Nagato/6 paths of pain match-up. Oh how I wish for the old days wear I could wank my King Itachi and believe he could win . Oh well here we go.

Itachi vs Preta path

*Spoiler*: __ 



Preta path has absorb all ninjutsu that comes his way so far. Itachi's ninjutsu will fall into the same fate as other Ninjutsu so all of Itachi's Katons and Sutions will be useless here. Susanoo is made up of chakra via  so theoretically Preta path can absorb it if he touches it. This leaves Itachi with nothing genjutsu and hitting Nagato or a pain path with his Sword of Totsuka which depending on what its made out of (which we don't know) it might get absorbed.




Itachi vs Animal path.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Itachi has no large summoning of his own so this means he'll have to go on a chakra spending frenzy. Itachi would have to waste Katons to try and hit a summoning to take it out, Suitons will be useless as it won't take any summoning out either. Itachi has Ama which could one shot a summoning but using Ama takes quite a bit of chakra which won't be good to waste. Nagato has a crab,a lizard that can turn invisible,a dog that can keep splitting,a huge bull,a panda,a huge ass bug,a rhino,the Gedo Maze,one huge bird, and any/all of the six paths of pain+Konan. To take on all of that would just have Itachi waste so much chakra taking them out as well as using Susanoo to try and keep safe, its not even funny and they might just overwhelm Itachi with the sheer amount of numbers alone. Itachi does have genjutsu which has been shown to take over creatures but I doubt he could take control of more then 2 and use them properly so he's still pretty screwed.  




Itachi vs Deva path

*Spoiler*: __ 



Itachi has no counter to a normal size ST nor a ST that was used on Gamatrio nor a ST that destroyed the leaf. Itachi could use Ama if being pulled in by BT although if Deva path or Nagato got hit with Ama, they could just use ST and use hell realm to repair themselves.




Itachi vs Human path.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Quite simple, if Itachi gets touch by said path or Nagato, he loses his soul.




Itachi vs Asura path

*Spoiler*: __ 



Asura path missiles,head canons,a rocket punch,rocket boots,sword/saw looking thingy,more arms that stretch, and an arm canon. Itachi can't deal with that fire power except by using Susanoo upon which is just wasting chakra.




Itachi vs Hell path.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Well he's done nothing notable really but if he caught Itachi(which is highly unlikely) then he'd get Ama to the fast. If Nagato used this path himself, I would fail to see the point unless he asked something like "Do my butt look big in these jeans" and then Itachi says "No it looks fine" and then die for telling a fib but I have a better chance of having a foursome with Megan Fox(who is gonna be in a new TMNT movie by the way),Jessica Alba,and Megan Iglesias before that happens lol.




Itachi is pretty much out gunned here. He can't take on and win against the 6 paths of pain or Nagato himself. But on the bright side we have this below


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## blk (Feb 22, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Itachi vs Deva path
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



In which sense Itachi doesn't have a counter to Shinra Tensei? Because i'm pretty sure that with Susano'o, he would be able to survive even to the one used against the Gamatrio.

Also, another possible counter to BT can be a sudden Susano'o activation [1], to which Nagato may fail to react in close quarters.

Other than this, i agree with pretty much everything else; good post.


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## Bonly (Feb 22, 2013)

blk said:


> In which sense Itachi doesn't have a counter to Shinra Tensei? Because i'm pretty sure that with Susano'o, he would be able to survive even to the one used against the Gamatrio.



Itachi's Susanoo hasn't been shown tanking any hit and still being around as far as I remember. The ribcage nor the skeleton form of any Susanoo has tanking a hit thats as strong(as far as I remember that is) as the ST used on the Gamatrio so I don't believe that said forms of Susanoo would tank an attack that sent three huge, ton weighting toads flying several meters from where they were. The only Susanoo that could deal with that would be his fully armor one with the Yata Mirror but with ST just being a force that push everything back, I doubt Itachi could put that level up before he gets hit by that level of ST at such a close range. 



> Also, another possible counter to BT can be a sudden Susano'o activation [1], to which Nagato may fail to react in close quarters.



I would disagree. Nagato was able to quickly react and handle B at the last second with the help of an extra pair of eyes. If Itachi used Susanoo in such a fashion then I have no doubt that Nagato could use preta path up to absorb that part of Susanoo while continuing BT.



> Other than this, i agree with pretty much everything else; good post.



Why thank you my good sir


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## Nikushimi (Feb 22, 2013)

Dealing with a replenished Nagato AND the Pain Rikudou is too much for Itachi. He'd have a shot at beating one or the other, but both is just...beyond what he is equipped to handle, stamina-wise.

About the only way he can win is if he can exploit the one-Jutsu-per-body limitation of the Rikudou and set up Izanami on Nagato. That would allow him to win, but it would also carry a lot of risk against an enemy of this level, which is a modest of way of saying it would be damn near impossible.

While Itachi is busy getting tag-teamed by the Pain Rikudou, Nagato casts Chibaku Tensei. Good game.


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## LostSelf (Feb 22, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> @TheIronMan
> Can you jog my memory I don't remember all of Nagato's sensor feats. The most prominent one I remember was him sensing Amaterasu before it was used.
> 
> We also know he can pinpoint or determine location because he allowed Itachi to find Kabuto.
> ...



Nagato sensed Itachi's shunshin and Kabuto's presence from a long distance, something not other sensors have done. Sensing in a close area in close combat is not as hard as sensing from kilometers away and finding the exact location with all those chakra of other shinobis in the middle. Muu was dodging surprise attacks with his sensing abilities as well. He dodged Naruto's rasengan when he didn't even know that Naruto was in the fight.

Now there's a misunderstanding. Itachi _never_ surprised Kabuto with tricks. At least, not with bunshins and such. The only time Itachi was so close doing this was when he turned into a crow, and Kabuto especifically said he failed to effectively dodge this because he forgot he had horns. Aside from that, Kabuto was all the way on the offensive, dodging the Uchiha bros hits like nothing.

Of course, some of the hits the Uchiha bros connected was not because he couldn't sense them, it was because of teamwork and Kabuto had to keep two in mind. But after reading the entire fight, none of Itachi's bunshin or tricks worked. And the ones that worked were teamwork maneuvers that Kabuto failed just a bit to dodge.

Now, if Nagato had enough reflexes to sense and react to Itachi's bunshin or shunshin when Bee was surprised by it, then i don't see Itachi tricking him with a bunshin. Let alone when Nagato could pin point the location of an enemy kilometers away. Doing this in this distance would be a piece of cake.


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## LostSelf (Feb 22, 2013)

*Edit: Nagato doesn't have Pain Rikudo to make this more balanced. About Koto, i seriously don't believe that it can be used without eye contact just for the fact that it's a visual genjutsu and can be avoided. I'll leave it unrestricted even when my intention of this fight is to see how people think would go a fight of Itachi vs Nagato with their own firepower.*


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## Nikushimi (Feb 22, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> *Edit: Nagato doesn't have Pain Rikudo to make this more balanced. About Koto, i seriously don't believe that it can be used without eye contact just for the fact that it's a visual genjutsu and can be avoided. I'll leave it unrestricted even when my intention of this fight is to see how people think would go a fight of Itachi vs Nagato with their own firepower.*



Eh...giving Nagato the Pain Rikudou is basically like giving Itachi Dat Crow with Kotoamatsukami available. Yes, it's technically his power, but it's not something he was ever able to make use of in conjunction with his own abilities. There never was a "prime" Nagato WITH the Pain Rikudou- especially not a Nagato who had this level of mobility in his legs.

As for Itachi vs Nagato...Itachi has a shot at destroying Chibaku Tensei if he can break apart the core with the Magatama or hit it with Amaterasu before it collects any debris. However, Nagato's remedy to that would simply be to create a diversion either through missiles, summons, or Shinra Tensei and cast it while Itachi is preoccupied. Itachi can better focus on a single opponent with his abilities, so keeping him pressured won't be as easy without the Rikudou; his seal speed is ideal for clones and replacement Jutsu that could allow him to flank Nagato, although the latter's shared vision presents an obvious problem. Itachi's shown he is mindful of and has ways to deal with that, but of course Nagato has answers as well. And then immobility was emphasized as a major weakpoint for Nagato, but it's been absolved here.

This would be one of those fights that depends heavily on how both sides play their cards. The option for Izanami is still there, too.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Feb 22, 2013)

Is there a reason Genjutsu or Tsukuyomi won't work or "BT+path combo" on Nagato?


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## BoomerAang (Feb 22, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Still seeing "Itachi oneshotted Nagato twice" arguments as a proof to say that Itachi can beat him alone when he did all this to a distracted Nagato.
> 
> Either way:
> 
> ...



This thread has been done heaps of times since that battle debuted in the manga. The general consensus was that Nagato's stronger than Itachi; see those threads for paragraph after paragraph after paragraph of reasons as to why Nagato wins.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 22, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Eh...giving Nagato the Pain Rikudou is basically like giving Itachi Dat Crow with Kotoamatsukami available. Yes, it's technically his power, but it's not something he was ever able to make use of in conjunction with his own abilities. There never was a "prime" Nagato WITH the Pain Rikudou- especially not a Nagato who had this level of mobility in his legs.



Granting Nagato the use of Pain Rikudou is not like giving Itachi the crow with Shisui's eye. 
It is Itachi's power, but we don't use it for one reason:

We don't know how he sets it up; is a large amount of prep-time needed to set up Koto with that eye?

There is defo a reason he didn't use it on Sasuke. Actually he did suggest why not, it was a time issue. Whereas with Pain Rikudou, we know it is Nagato's jutsu. The man created it, so he is able to use it. Obito showed us that it is possible to fight alongside your Paths if you have to.



> As for Itachi vs Nagato...Itachi has a shot at destroying Chibaku Tensei if he can break apart the core with the Magatama or hit it with Amaterasu before it collects any debris.



If this is so, why didn't he do it right away? It is unlikely he used Amaterasu before it collected any debris or opted for the core with the Magatama alone for a reason: he couldn't. 
It was debatable, somewhat, before we saw Magatama actually hit targets: it lacks the destructive power remotely comparable to the Bijuu-Dama and FRS. 

In short, it is probably CT will be a game ender. Perhaps Totsuka, but then again you've got a divided opinion on what Totsuka can or cannot seal - "living beings only, or whatever it touches". However when it sealed Nagato, it did touch the ground and that didn't do anything to it.... .

For practical reasons, Amaterasu is a horrible move to try against CT. Itachi has to shift his focus from the Rinnegan user/s in front of him to the orb... You can see why this isn't a wise move.



> His seal speed is ideal for clones and replacement Jutsu that could allow him to flank Nagato, although the latter's shared vision presents an obvious problem. Itachi's shown he is mindful of and has ways to deal with that, but of course Nagato has answers as well. And then immobility was emphasized as a major weakpoint for Nagato, but it's been absolved here.



I must ask, why wouldn't the clones and replacements be nullified by Nagato's sensory skills* which would supplement the shared vision?
Bear in mind Kabuto had no awareness of this ability.

*It is so accurate that Itachi just followed Nagato's coordinates to find Kabuto. 

Ah, but about the ways Itachi can deal with shared vision, here's something I must ask: will he be able to use his shown ways to deal with it when Nagato focuses on him?
It was pretty clear that Itachi blinded the additional eyes because of the fact Nagato's, or rather Kabuto's, attention was occupied with the Jinchuriki. Furthermore, lets remind ourselves about the latter's unawareness of Nagato's sensing powers.

*Fun fact:* *immobility with Nagato doesn't mean total immobility*. 
You can see he moved towards Bee, dodged Bee and moved towards Naruto. Then he was slowly walking back when he grabbed Naruto's soul, then he physically got up after being knocked down by Susanoo.

Severely limited mobility is a more accurate way to describe it. Especially since Itachi wasn't lifting Nagato to get him to move.



> The option for Izanami is still there, too.



May I ask how? Setting it up was hard enough for Itachi, even with unlimited stamina/chakra and backup from an EMS user. 

Second there is a debate issue with Izanami: what does it take for the loop to truly be infinite? Does Nagato have anything he's denying? Does Itachi set the conditions? 

Itachi suggested the condition is "running away from the truth", like Kabuto trying to be someone else. Is there a case like that with Nagato?

Aside from the practical point, the debatable point is "will it even work"?


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 22, 2013)

> Nagato sensed Itachi's shunshin and Kabuto's presence from a long distance, something not other sensors have done. Sensing in a close area in close combat is not as hard as sensing from kilometers away and finding the exact location with all those chakra of other shinobis in the middle. Muu was dodging surprise attacks with his sensing abilities as well. He dodged Naruto's rasengan when he didn't even know that Naruto was in the fight.


We don't really know if Nagato sensed Itachi's shunshin or was just staring at him, since Nagato was laying on Itachi's shoulder the whole time Itachi acted. They were within close enough proximity that Nagato could of just saw what Itachi was doing and warned them. It's not a definitive feat.

Nagato's ability to locate people through sensing does not guarantee he can discern when Itachi makes a clone and feints with it. As we saw in the recent fight, Kabuto was able to sense both the Uchiha bros. presence, yet still couldn't predict Itachi's feints ahead of time. 



> Now there's a misunderstanding. Itachi never surprised Kabuto with tricks. At least, not with bunshins and such. The only time Itachi was so close doing this was when he turned into a crow, and Kabuto specifically said he failed to effectively dodge this because he forgot he had horns. Aside from that, Kabuto was all the way on the offensive, dodging the Uchiha bros hits like nothing.


Itachi did surprise Kabuto with tricks though, twice. 
The first time was when his Karasu Kage Bushin deactivated Susanoo[1] and then got impaled by Kabuto's sword[2]. The question mark representing confusion and perplexity as well as the exclamation point representing exclamation  and surprise gives us a clear understanding of how Kabuto felt during the situation[3].

And then Itachi feints Kabuto a second time to complete Izanami[4].

We know the second feint _is real_, and not part of the Izanami genjutsu loop, because Itachi explains in detail to Sasuke how he got Kabuto in the technique afterward.

Izanami is activated 





> Using yours and your opponents senses


 Bottom Middle panel[5]


> You memorize the bodily sensation....Then you replicate the same bodily sensation intentionally


Itachi calls the first bodily sensation  A, and the second bodily sensation A'.
5

Take a close look at the top part of the scan and you can see A and A' are both the times Itachi feinted Kabuto in the real world to initiate the genjutsu.



> Of course, some of the hits the Uchiha bros connected was not because he couldn't sense them, it was because of teamwork and Kabuto had to keep two in mind. But after reading the entire fight, none of Itachi's bunshin or tricks worked. And the ones that worked were teamwork maneuvers that Kabuto failed just a bit to dodge.


This doesn't change the fact that Kabuto didn't sense Itachi's clones. Stuff going on during the battle wouldn't _turn off_ Kabuto's sensing which was on and stayed on throughout the match. His first inclination of the clones even existing always came after they attacked him, and never immediately after they had manifested.



> Now, if Nagato had enough reflexes to sense and react to Itachi's bunshin or shunshin when Bee was surprised by it, then i don't see Itachi tricking him with a bunshin. Let alone when Nagato could pin point the location of an enemy kilometers away. Doing this in this distance would be a piece of cake.


We don't know if Nagato used sensing to track Itachi's bushin, though I doubt it since he _was_ leaning on Itachi.

Nagato hasn't shown he'd immediately pick up on a clone's manifestation as soon as Itachi uses kage bushin. The clone only needs to be around for a small period of time to cause a brief opening in Nagato's formidable defense. Itachi was able to feint Kabuto repeatedly despite having susanoo up, so that may also serve to confuse Nagato. Nagato may think if he sees Itachi with Susanoo then a feint isn't coming.

And I'm not definitively saying who would win either, I'm just throwing reasonable doubt into a Nagato victory.


We don't know whether or not Nagato can break Tsukiyomi or fight after it.
We don't know whether or not Nagato can be caught off guard and killed by a feint.

Between Nagato's shinra tensei _and_ preta path he can only be defeated/wounded in very few ways.

Genjutsu
and
Feinting

Itachi _is_ at thee very top of both those categories.

edit: And there maybe a misconception going on, but no one in their right mind would actually believe Itachi to be _stronger_ than Nagato. _You don't have to be stronger_ to beat someone though.


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## NarutoWinsByDefault (Feb 22, 2013)

Actually Kakashi is at the top of the feinting category. He's pulled a fast one on Pain, and Itachi.


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## LostSelf (Feb 22, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Eh...giving Nagato the Pain Rikudou is basically like giving Itachi Dat Crow with Kotoamatsukami available. Yes, it's technically his power, but it's not something he was ever able to make use of in conjunction with his own abilities. There never was a "prime" Nagato WITH the Pain Rikudou- especially not a Nagato who had this level of mobility in his legs.



Yes, still, KA can be avoided. And that's why i gave Nagato the chameleon to use it to move. Considering it's speed, Nagato's sensing abilities and his ability to predict Amaterasu, i don't see Itachi taking it down. Not that easily however...



> As for Itachi vs Nagato...Itachi has a shot at destroying Chibaku Tensei if he can break apart the core with the Magatama or hit it with Amaterasu before it collects any debris.



I guess the core is what makes it difficult and not the debris (though it helps). CT survived KN6's bijudama, something that by feats and hype should have more destructive power than Magatama. While Amaterasu seems to be short or mid ranged at much, by the time Itachi be close to it, it'll be covered in debris. 




Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Is there a reason Genjutsu or Tsukuyomi won't work or "BT+path combo" on Nagato?



Nagato doesn't need to look at Itachi's eyes in order to do that. He can or have another summon look at Itachi while he's using it, or avoid eye contact completely. He's a sensor after all.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 22, 2013)

Itachi's feinted Kakashi also. 5

I'm leaning towards Itachi being better than Kakashi at feinting, because Itachi was able to feint an active, sensing SM user twice.


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## LostSelf (Feb 22, 2013)

Nagato kept with Itachi's bunshin and shunshin movements. And like i said, he never feinted Kabuto. Or at least, didn't surprise him with feints.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 22, 2013)

Nagato was very close to Itachi when he did that though, and Itachi was not trying to feint Nagato.[1]

I don't understand why you don't believe he surprised Kabuto. A surprise is an unexpected event. When he stabbed Itachi with a sword, he thought he was stabbing the real Itachi, and was not "expecting" that Itachi to be a fake one.

Likewise, when he bisected the real Itachi he wasn't "expecting" another Itachi clone to attack him.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 22, 2013)

Speaking of clone feints, is it wrong for the person who mastered chakra and became well versed in all the mainstream Ninjutsu to be able to use clone feints of his own?


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 22, 2013)

I don't doubt Nagato can use clones, but he has no feats of doing so, and we have no idea of when he uses them IC in battle either. We don't know how proficient or skilled he is with feinting with them either.

On the other hand we have a detailed account of the amount of times Itachi feints people. Either with real clones or genjutsu made clones.

Itachi vs kakashi ,Kurenai :  Genjutsu > *Exploding Clone*
Itachi vs Jiraiya : -
Itachi vs Kakashi,Naruto,Sakura,Chiyo:  *Genjutsu clone*
Itachi vs Orochimaru : -
Itachi vs Deidara:   *Genjutsu Clone*
Itachi vs Post-Wind training Naruto:  *He himself was a clone*
Itachi vs Sasuke: *He himself was a clone*
Itachi vs Sasuke[Main Battle]:  *Genjutsu Clone > Crow Clone*
Itachi vs Killer Bee:  *Genjutsu Clone*
Itachi vs Nagato:  -
Itachi vs Sage Kabuto:  *Crow Clone > Crow Clone*


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## IchLiebe (Feb 22, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> Itachi's feinted Kakashi also. Link removed
> 
> I'm leaning towards Itachi being better than Kakashi at feinting, because Itachi was able to feint an active, sensing SM user twice.



Look at the next page. Itachi's the one who got bunshin feinted LOL.

Nagato is just too much. Wins 10/10 no dif.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 22, 2013)

A feint is a false or fake move that's meant to be deceptive/tricking/ or distracting. In that regard they both feinted each other.

Itachi attacked a clone of Kakashi's that he thought was the real Kakashi as far as we know.

Kakashi's kage bushin likewise was holding a fake Itachi at Kunai point after rescuing Kurenai Link removed .


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## IchLiebe (Feb 22, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> A feint is a false or fake move that's meant to be deceptive/tricking/ or distracting. In that regard they both feinted each other.
> 
> Itachi attacked a clone of Kakashi's that he thought was the real Kakashi as far as we know.
> 
> Kakashi's kage bushin likewise was holding a fake Itachi at Kunai point after rescuing Kurenai Link removed .



Kakashi countered the Itachi's feint while Itachi didn't counter Kakashi's. 

That was the real Itachi. Itachi doesn't use bunshins like Kakashi does. He uses them to apply pressure.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 22, 2013)

I don't see how that changes the fact that what Itachi did to Kakashi constitutes the definition of a feint.

And Itachi doesn't use bushins to apply pressure and double team people lol.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 22, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> I don't see how that changes the fact that what Itachi did to Kakashi constitutes the definition of a feint.
> 
> And Itachi doesn't use bushins to apply pressure and double team people lol.



If you throw a kunai and it gets blocked then you can't say you hit your target. Kakashi effectively feinted Itachi while Itachi did feint Kakashi, it was a failure because Kakashi had already put a counter up against it. 

Show me one scan of Itachi utilizes a bunshin in the same way as Kakashi, and not the Kabuto fight.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 22, 2013)

> If you throw a kunai and it gets blocked then you can't say you hit your target. Kakashi effectively feinted Itachi while Itachi did feint Kakashi, it was a failure because Kakashi had already put a counter up against it.


He still feinted Kakashi. Kakashi is just one of the only ninja that frequently substitutes himself. But it succeeding wasn't my point. My point is he feinted kakashi.



> Show me one scan of Itachi utilizes a bunshin in the same way as Kakashi, and not the Kabuto fight.


lol, why not the Kabuto fight?

Itachi feinted Kakashi then tried to stab him in the back.
Itachi feinted Sasuke and tried to throw a kunai into his face.
Itachi feinted Killer Bee and tried to throw a kunai into his face.
Itachi feinted Kabuto and repeatedly tried to attack him while he was vulnerable.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 22, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> He still feinted Kakashi. Kakashi is just one of the only ninja that frequently substitutes himself. But it succeeding wasn't my point. My point is he feinted kakashi.



It's not a bunshin feint that can be used to show anything. It's like people showing how fast Sasuke is by saying he almost blitzed Deidara. And Kakashi feinted Itachi successfully there and in part 2 while Itachi failed.



> lol, why not the Kabuto fight?
> 
> Itachi feinted Kakashi then tried to stab him in the back.
> Itachi feinted Sasuke and tried to throw a kunai into his face.
> ...



Because he didn't in the Kabuto fight yet you would claim he did and I don't feel like talking about it.

Not Kakashi style though. He used it to get pressure, attack from the front and back.
Need the scan to know what your talking about, but I'm sure your talking about when him and the bunshin attacked together.
He never feinted Bee, he genjutsu'd him.
. He did it to get Izanami in place. 

Again he has never used a bunshin to trick people like Kakashi, which is fighting with the bunshin while the real body hides.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 22, 2013)

I don't see dust cloud in the restrictions. 

Itachi knows weakness of Nagato and rinnegan. He knows Nagato is dependant on the shared vision, also Nagato can't seem to be able to absorb spiritual weapons.

Yeah, Itachi creates a dust cloud + a diversion with a karasubunshin here and there and voila. Totsuka GG.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 22, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> I don't doubt Nagato can use clones, but he has no feats of doing so, and we have no idea of when he uses them IC in battle either. We don't know how proficient or skilled he is with feinting with them either.



Feats only is outdated and generally inaccurate. We're told he can use the mainstream Ninjutsu, clones tend to be a mainstream Ninjutsu. One _could_ make a case for Nagato using clones _if_ they wanted. They could even use the anime feat as a citation, though its up to them if they want to.

Nagato being well versed with Ninjutsu insofar that Jiraiya chose to go to Sage Mode due to that quality in Nagato suggests he is pretty skilled with his use of Ninjutsu. 
If you class clones as part of the mainstream Ninjutsu, then that would mean Nagato is pretty skilled.

Although it is an option, personally, I doubt he will need to use clones for clones. His sensory skills and his Rinnegan jutsu (particularly the Preta Path) are sufficient enough to deal with clones.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 22, 2013)

@Ichliebe
Itachi tries to render people open to surprise attacks by using clones. 

He can make clones with ninjutsu or genjutsu. The result is the same. He tries to make you distracted and attacks during the vulnerability period.
Link removed

@ Munboy
To be frank it'd just be really hard to factor in Nagato using clones with no feats to work off of or even how he'd use them.

And Itachi's feinting is the point behind preta path. As I said earlier, you have to beat Nagato by surprise attacking him while preta is not up, or using genjutsu.

edit: I'll post back later


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## IchLiebe (Feb 22, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> @Ichliebe
> Itachi tries to render people open to surprise attacks by using clones.
> 
> He can make clones with ninjutsu or genjutsu. The result is the same. He tries to make you distracted and attacks during the vulnerability period.



Which is pressure. He does a clone and attacks at the same time making it where they are thrown off.

You can't bunshin feint in a genjutsu. THe whole thing is you said Itachi was most likely a bunshin when Kakashi was holding a kunai to his throat. I said no it wasn't because Itachi doesn't utilizes bunshins that way. Your now switching it up to something else. And making someone distracted and attacking them during their vulnerability period is pressure. Pressure is when there's so much going on it makes the other person vulnerable. Something to throw them off.


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## Ricky Sen (Feb 22, 2013)

Itachi doesn't have the firepower to defeat Nagato without Naruto and Killer Bee.

Nagato's gravitational moon move, I have trouble remembering japanese names, would end the match immediately.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 23, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Still seeing "Itachi oneshotted Nagato twice" arguments as a proof to say that Itachi can beat him alone when he did all this to a distracted Nagato.
> 
> Either way:
> 
> ...



An interesting fight, but there are too many questions that need to be answered in order to determine the victor of this fight. For example, can Nagato defend against Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu or not? Are Amaterasu flames composed of chakra, and therefore can Preta Realm absorb them? These questions _need_ answers.

At any rate, I don't see Nagato getting around Itachi's Susano'o until or unless he uses Chibaku Tensei. And even then, there are some tricky questions to answer. Can Itachi's Yasaka Magatama take the core out on its own (if spammed), or does it really require a Bijudama and a FRS in order for it to be destroyed too?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 23, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> @ Munboy
> To be frank it'd just be really hard to factor in Nagato using clones with no feats to work off of or even how he'd use them.
> 
> And Itachi's feinting is the point behind preta path. As I said earlier, you have to beat Nagato by surprise attacking him while preta is not up, or using genjutsu.



Feats only is a flawed stance. By "feats only" we can't assume that Itachi can put multiple foes under Genjutsu (Kakashi feat), nor can we assume he can predict foes in slow motion (Sasuke feat). 

Logically he can, but "feats only" would suggest otherwise because he has no feats.

Genjutsu will be hard against a guy who mastered chakra, and the mainstream Ninjutsu. That includes the standard counter to Genjutsu, the 'release' seal.
Furthermore a sensor type is capable of spotting Genjutsu, Karin showed us this.

So catching him by surprise is the only hope. However with someone who has three forms of detection {sensing; the rain; 360 Demon Realm vision} the chances of that are slim.


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## Jizznificent (Feb 23, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Are Amaterasu flames composed of chakra, and therefore can Preta Realm absorb them?


hinata pretty much confirmed that it is chakra...

THIS


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## TrickForce1 (Feb 23, 2013)

Itachi fucks his face with fuck-the-face no jutsu...xD


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## joshhookway (Feb 23, 2013)

Itachi would easily Toksuka Nagato again.


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## KnightGhost (Feb 23, 2013)

This hardly debate ablely any more Toksuka biltz Would end it.

Nagato can use CT but Itachi could just Biltz from where ever his location to end the justu we have already seen Toksuka biltz nagtao at long range.

And we no he doesn't have the mobility to dodge something like that.

If itachi could feint SM kabuto WITH SENSEING at close range TWICE then Nagato is in trouble.


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## Empathy (Feb 23, 2013)

Couldn't Nagato just fly to stay out of the _Totsuka's_ reach and use _Chibaku Tensei_ from there?


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## IchLiebe (Feb 23, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> This hardly debate ablely any more Toksuka biltz Would end it.
> 
> Nagato can use CT but Itachi could just Biltz from where ever his location to end the justu we have already seen Toksuka biltz nagtao at long range.
> 
> ...



Nagato was being controlled by Kabuto fully. Kabuto took over his body so you can't say that. ST worked on ama and will on totsuka.


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## KnightGhost (Feb 23, 2013)

Empathy said:


> Couldn't Nagato just fly to stay out of the _Totsuka's_ reach and use _Chibaku Tensei_ from there?



Yea But itachi could just take out his summon.

And even if nagato found some way to get really high in the air Itachi logically would just use susnaoo like a spring board by having it throw him in that location to nagato and then reform it when he is near for a 
Toksuka biltz.

The only way for nagato to win is to use ALL HIS SUMMONS to distract Itachi but even this is a long shot because as we have seen amaterasu spam would take out them all even Cerberus.


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## Empathy (Feb 23, 2013)

You make it sound easy for Itachi to take out the summon with Nagato running defense. The notion of Itachi throwing himself at Nagato with _Susanoo_ and then reforming the _Totsuka_ mid-flight seems rather comical and ill-conceived — it's much more likely to result in Itachi being sent back down to earth with _Shinra Tensei_ rather than Itachi burying the blade in Nagato's chest.


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## KnightGhost (Feb 23, 2013)

Empathy said:


> You make it sound easy for Itachi to take out the summon with Nagato running defense. *The notion of Itachi throwing himself at Nagato with Susanoo and then reforming the Totsuka mid-flight seems rather comical and ill-conceived* — it's much more likely to result in Itachi being sent back down to earth with _Shinra Tensei_ rather than Itachi burying the blade in Nagato's chest.



I think thats because you don't want it to be true but we have already seen itachi use susnaoo while moving at really high speed.

So its just a matter of you accepting reality.

Nagato is not fast enough to catch Itachi off gaurd with Shinra Tensei or any other justu.

like i said Itachi feinted SM kabuto twice who we knew is much faster with sensing WHILE IN MID AIR.

Whats funny is "Itachi buryed the blade in nagtaos chest" in far more counterable circumstances for nagato.

All that stood between them was literally a cloud of dust and nagato could not even stop that AT LONG RANGE!


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## IchLiebe (Feb 23, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> I think thats because you don't want it to be true but we have already seen itachi use susnaoo while moving at really high speed.
> 
> So its just a matter of you accepting reality.
> 
> ...



He stabbed a cripple who wasn't even in control of his body, or trying to win. ST counters totsuka, or it gets absorbed. That's if Itachi can even get close enough to hit him. All the summons he has to go through. And if he amaterasu's all of them, he dies from exhaustion.


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## LostSelf (Feb 23, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> An interesting fight, but there are too many questions that need to be answered in order to determine the victor of this fight. For example, can Nagato defend against Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu or not? Are Amaterasu flames composed of chakra, and therefore can Preta Realm absorb them? These questions _need_ answers.



I believe he can. Being a sensor makes him fight with no troubles without eye contact. Rain jutsu + his own sensing and his linked vision makes Itachi's tricks almost useless here, at least, by surprising him.

Amaterasu is made of chakra as stated by Hinata.



> At any rate, I don't see Nagato getting around Itachi's Susano'o until or unless he uses Chibaku Tensei. And even then, there are some tricky questions to answer. Can Itachi's Yasaka Magatama take the core out on its own (if spammed), or does it really require a Bijudama and a FRS in order for it to be destroyed too?



I believe he can. Given his chameleon speed feats, moving fast enough to send Nagato up to Bee's place before Bee could touch the floor after a powerful ST... I'm certain that Nagato can dodge every Totsuka blows inside or above his chameleon. While, at the same time, avoid his summon to be killed with Amaterasu with his sensing abilities.

Itachi has not shown to use Magatama Madara's style. And this jutsu alone won't destroy CT. Deva's CT tanked a KN6 Bijudama,  a jutsu with much more destructive power and much more feats than Itachi's jutsu (A jutsu with no feat aside from destroying CT with the help of two heavily overpowered techniques).

*@Nothingmeansanything*: I didn't see your reply. There are some things i don't agree, though. Like in the scan of Itachi surprising Kabuto dispersing Susano'o while Kabuto was in a bad position, something that made Itachi's attack easier to make. And Kabuto falling for the same trick twice speaks bad for him as a sensor in a heated fight. 

Of course, Kabuto had to be concentrated with two oponents and was arrogant. 

Nagato has more ways to detect (Linked vision, Rain jutsu + his own sensing) and is a better emotionally stable fighter than Kabuto. And he's fighting only one oponent. Very diferent scenarios, though.


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## Dr. White (Feb 23, 2013)

> TheIronMan said:
> 
> 
> > I believe he can. Being a sensor makes him fight with no troubles without eye contact. Rain jutsu + his own sensing and his linked vision makes Itachi's tricks almost useless here, at least, by surprising him.
> ...


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## Seon (Feb 24, 2013)

Honestly I don't see why to tsuki won't work this time around..


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## Remsengan (Feb 24, 2013)

Seon said:


> Honestly I don't see why to tsuki won't work this time around..



Because Nagato is mobile and doesn't have an reckless puppet-master pulling his strings.

An in-control Nagato would sense Itachi(w/Susano'o) and be ready to defend.


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## Tengu (Feb 24, 2013)

Either of them had 50% of winning this, it just depends if Itachi uses Totsuka first, or if Nagato uses CT first.
Simple as that.


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## Rage of Hate (Feb 24, 2013)

Itachi wins this match due to koto. 

Simple really.


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## LostSelf (Feb 24, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> > -He'l either have to literally fight the whole fight with his eyes closed, or he is going to get hit with a Tsukuyomi or Ephimeral. Itachi stated outright before Kabuto told him that he had Genjutsu resistant scalera: that he was going to force Tsukyomi on Kabuto and revealed his plan. Itachi was easily able to outpace SM Kabuto(who has better sensing due to SM) via his speed, dexterity(being able to disarm Kabuto), and a crow clone, ultimately landing Izanami on him in the process. Pain has to watch for such trickery/skill, and he is no where near Itachi's level physically.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 24, 2013)

Itachi loses rather badly here, he has to resort to his most broken technique from the start and he'll run out of chakra faster and Nagato can just absorb more than half the attacks that are sent at him.


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## Dr. White (Feb 24, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Dr. White said:
> 
> 
> > Itachi had to force Kabuto with Tsukuyomi with the help of Sasuke. He was literally cut in half trying to set this up. Not to mention that Itachi had an untouchable shield called Sasuke to back him up when he was risking his head in the middle of the fight.
> ...


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## KnightGhost (Feb 24, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> Because Nagato is mobile and doesn't have an reckless puppet-master pulling his strings.
> 
> An in-control Nagato would sense Itachi(w/Susano'o) and be ready to defend.



Your assuming Nagtao is fast enough to dodge which he is not since he could not even react the first time.


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## Seon (Feb 24, 2013)

I really don't see how Nagato could deal with Totsuka. As he couldn't do anything the first time.


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 24, 2013)

Having RM Naruto and Killer Bee as back up might have something to do with that though.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 24, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Having RM Naruto and Killer Bee as back up might have something to do with that though.



In addition to other factors like someone whose unaware of Nagato's full abilities controlling him - sensing.
Then there's the mobility factor and Preta Path to consider.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 24, 2013)

Seon said:


> I really don't see how Nagato could deal with Totsuka. As he couldn't do anything the first time.



I really don't see how Itachi could deal with Chibaku Tensei, Shinra Tensei. As he couldn't do anything the first time.


Seriously, Itachi landed 2 ohko before Itachi even got out his totsuka. The first ST was enough to knock Itachi out of the game until Naruto and Bee were close to death.


Susanoo=chakra
Totusuka is part of Susanoo.
so
Totsuka=Chakra

Preta Path= Chakra absorption


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## IchLiebe (Feb 24, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> Your assuming Nagtao is fast enough to dodge which he is not since he could not even react the first time.



Nagato was able to outrun a ST blast. Even though he is crippled, he has shown one of the best on panel speed feats of the manga and a better one than any of Itachis.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 24, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Nagato was able to outrun a ST blast. Even though he is crippled, he has shown one of the best on panel speed feats of the manga and a better one than any of Itachis.



On top of that, he managed to dodge Bee's V2 smash, and then even managed to swiftly make his way to Naruto.
While he was limited. Though the Bee feats are more impressive as he did that while he was emaciated.


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## raizen28 (Feb 24, 2013)

Pein Rikudo would take out Itachi. Nagato Obviously Stomps. Itachi is not over any Rinnegan Users


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 24, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> Your assuming Nagtao is fast enough to dodge which he is not since he could not even react the first time.


He could dodge a mach 20 Rasenshuriken point blank with less then a second to spare, a feat only the Third Raikage has equaled. So yes, he can comfortably react to the Totsuka Sword.


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## Jizznificent (Feb 24, 2013)

- in terms of nagato's defence, ninjutsu in most cases would be useless, as long as nagato has shinra tensei or preta path available.

-  bunshin feints and other surprise attacks will be hard pressed to work on nagato, since nagato can use demon path's multiple face jutsu, shared vision, rain sensing jutsu, chakra sensing etc. 

- taijutsu/CQC would be almost suicidal against nagato, as he can counter with deva path, demon path, human path, preta path.

- in terms of nagato's offence, all that needs to be said is one word... rinnegan. other than that, nagato displayed basic wind and water jutsu when he was younger (reppushu and mizurappa from the looks of it), so he can use those - if even needed. oh. there is also gedo mazo. 

- nagato can also outlast itachi.


the main things itachi on nagato are mobility and genjutsu (but nagato has ways to somewhat compensate for the former). we have no feat of how well nagato himself can defend against genjutsu, let alone tsukiyomi (this is not to say that nagato can't defend against genjutsu). it's not just nagato though; many characters - including other top tier characters - have no genjutsu defence feat. this makes matches like these hard to judge.

i could give nagato the benefit of the doubt and say that a top tier character like him, with the rinnegan (a higher form of the sharingan) would fend off most genjutsu. or i could even hypothesis some non-canon ideas on how he could defend himself against itachi's genjutsu. however, that would unjust. 

nonetheless i've always felt that nagato was the stronger of the two.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 26, 2013)

He wasn't using Chameleon when he blitzed Bee, Bee bounced back and went straight for Nagato, Chameleon was no where around.


Mobility not an issue he is uses shunshin


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 26, 2013)

Jizznificent said:


> - in terms of nagato's defence, ninjutsu in most cases would be useless, as long as nagato has shinra tensei or preta path available.
> 
> -  bunshin feints and other surprise attacks will be hard pressed to work on nagato, since nagato can use demon path's multiple face jutsu, shared vision, rain sensing jutsu, chakra sensing etc.
> 
> ...



Well said I agree with your post, I feel nagato is more powerful, but Itachi is smarter and slightly more skilled then nagato, in a fight odds favor nagato but Itachi can possibly pull a rabbit out his hat due to his intellect and skill.


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## Larcher (Feb 26, 2013)

He relied on Bee and naruto to support him with there strongest long range attacks there is just no way itachi can do this his susano won't protect him for his strongest almighty push and he hasn't got the stamina to use so many of his strongest attaks to defend himself against nagato so Nagato takes this Mid-high diff 50/50 times.


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 26, 2013)

Lemony Sage said:


> He relied on Bee and anruto to support him with there strongest long range attacks there is just no way itachi can do this his susano won't protect him for his strongest almighty push and he hasn't got the stamina to use so many of his strongest attaks to defend himself against nagato so Nagato takes this Mid-high diff 50/50 times.



Well one could say he just wanted to be 100% safe also he took the time to explain the weakness and teach naruto a few things, had he acted faster its possible he could of destroyed the core himself, susano should protect him the same way it did against kirin if anything he can reform it.





The way I see it against nagato himself its a 6/4 with the odds going to nagato


Against the paths Itachi odds become even lower 6.5/3.5 Imo the paths Are harder for Itachi to defeat.


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## Larcher (Feb 26, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Well one could say he just wanted to be 100% safe also he took the time to explain the weakness and teach naruto a few things, had he acted faster its possible he could of destroyed the core himself, susano should protect him the same way it did against kirin if anything he can reform it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well it doesn't work like that if masashi wanted people to know he could destroy planetry devastion on his own he would have showen itachi do it on his own which he didn't and the whole idea of the rush he was in just proves my point that he doesn't have the time to think about countering it though i'm glad you agree nagato is stronger. and i've got to go edit my post cause of a spelling mistake.


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## Seon (Feb 26, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> I really don't see how Itachi could deal with Chibaku Tensei, Shinra Tensei. As he couldn't do anything the first time.
> 
> 
> Seriously, Itachi landed 2 ohko before Itachi even got out his totsuka. The first ST was enough to knock Itachi out of the game until Naruto and Bee were close to death.
> ...




Umm what the hell? Are we reading the same manga? 

When did Nagato land anything on Itachi? Speaking of which if chibaku Tensei and Shinra Tensei are one hit kills how come none of them did? 

In fact, in that whole instance, Nagato got hit with Amaterasu and Totsuka. So he lost twice. 

Also Totsuka is a sealing blade. If what your saying is the case, then Nagato would be unsealable. 

The way I see it is Nagato just isn't fast enough. 

Sure he can absorb chakra, things he can see coming. If he can't see it coming he's dead.


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## Rage of Hate (Feb 26, 2013)

would totsuka sword be able to seal CT. I remember zetsu saying it can seal anyone and thing. 

Either way, so long as the paths and koto are restricted, it's a 50/50 toss up between the two  but i will give itachi a degree above nagato.

High diff for either side (itachi wins)


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## Trojan (Feb 26, 2013)

Nagato wins. He's at least 2 tiers above Itachi. 

First of all, all Itachi's ninjutsu is worthless against Nagato, thanks to preta path and ST. Also, Nagato is a sensor, so he'll know about anything coming from Itachi and he'll counter it. Also, his sensing ability will protect him against the genjutsu because he doesn't need to look at Itachi, so that wont help Itachi much (even though I don't believe that a genjutsu from MS can take the Rinnegan down). and in term of Taijutsu we saw what Nagato did against Naruto & B. 

Nagato is better in everything IMO. On the other hand I don't see what Itachi can do. Of course if you're talking about mindless Nagato, and Itachi with the help of Naruto & B this is another story.


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## LostSelf (Feb 26, 2013)

Seon said:


> Umm what the hell? Are we reading the same manga?
> 
> When did Nagato land anything on Itachi? Speaking of which if chibaku Tensei and Shinra Tensei are one hit kills how come none of them did?



They are sure death that Itachi wouldn't be able to outperform if used correctly.

Shinra Tensei from a chakra divided Deva one-shotted Kakashi and co. when Nagato decided it. And one-shotted three boss summons way bigger than Susano'o. Itachi has shown less tanking feats than Kakashi, so a basic Shinra Tensei of the level of the last one he used on Kakashi should leave Itachi done for good if it doesn't hit Susano'o. Not dead, but unable to battle.



> In fact, in that whole instance, Nagato got hit with Amaterasu and Totsuka. So he lost twice.



Anyone would've killed Nagato if he's thinking that his ally won't attack him and he won't attack an Edo ally. This proves nothing.



> The way I see it is Nagato just isn't fast enough.



Well, he was fast enough to get behind Bee outrunning a blast, though. I don't see Susano'o easily hitting this kind of speed.



> Sure he can absorb chakra, things he can see coming. If he can't see it coming he's dead.



Well, he's a sensor and has shared vision .


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## Ghost (Feb 26, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Nagaro wins. He's at least 2 tiers above Itachi.



Just a tier.



> First of all, all Itachi's ninjutsu is worthless against Nagato, thanks to preta path and CT.



Because Nagato can keep Preta Path up all the time. And since when was Chibaku Tensei used to counter ninjutsu?



> Also, Nagato is a sensor, so he'll know about anything coming from Itachi and he'll counter it.



Like he sensed the Totsuka no Tsurugi.


> Also, his sensing ability will protect him against the genjutsu because he doesn't need to look at Itachi, so that wont help Itachi much (even though I don't believe that a genjutsu from MS can take the Rinnegan down)



Even if Nagato's supermegahyperawesome sensing would make it possible to fight Itachi like this, he wouldn't do it because it's not his style. He never did this canon.

Your opinion counts jack shit when it has nothing from manga to support it. Nagato won't be able to cancel Tsukuyomi from what he has shown.



> . and in term of Taijutsu
> we saw what Nagato did against Naruto & B.



Itachi knows about Soul Rip and Asura path. I doubt he'd engage in Taijutsu with his real body. 



> Nagato is better in everything IMO. On the other hand I don't see what Itachi can do.



First of all:

Itachi is better in genjutsu, taijutsu, speed, intelligence, handseals...

So no, Nagato is not better in everything.


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## Kai (Feb 26, 2013)

Asura, Preta Path, and Deva Path force Itachi into Susano'o pretty quickly.

Itachi disposes of those path powers pretty quickly and forces Nagato into his trump cards, Chou Shinra Tensei or Chibaku Tensei while having to be mindful of both his chakra reserves and the strain of the Mangekyo. 

At this point Itachi has nothing to up the ante to match Nagato's power and the sheer gravitational force of the Deva Path. Some case can be made of destroying the core immediately with full knowledge but the chances are less than likely and village busting CST will obliterate Itachi.

High difficulty for Nagato.


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## Joakim3 (Feb 26, 2013)

Saikyou said:


> Just a tier.



And in the world of Naruto a tier is a MASSIVE gap..... comparing Itachi to Nagato is like comparing Nagato to Edo Madara



Saikyou said:


> Because Nagato can keep Preta Path up all the time. And since when was Chibaku Tensei used to counter ninjutsu?



Chakra & stamina wise yeah he conceivably could, and with someone of his reactions + sensing + shared vision he can afford not to. CT is designed to kill whatever/who ever Nagato decides to use it on



Saikyou said:


> Like he sensed the Totsuka no Tsurugi.



Kabuto was in control of him and he could not sense. His sensing is active (like Karin) not passive like SM Naruto or Mu's



Saikyou said:


> Even if Nagato's supermegahyperawesome sensing would make it possible to fight Itachi like this, he wouldn't do it because it's not his style. He never did this canon.



He sensed _Amaterasu_ buildup in canon, sensed Naruto & Killer B's arrival and helped Itachi locate Kabuto..... he used it in canon



Saikyou said:


> Your opinion counts jack shit when it has nothing from manga to support it. Nagato won't be able to cancel Tsukuyomi from what he has shown.



He has Madara's literal eyes.... i.e 2 levels above Itachi, he himself is a genjutsu expert and put his entire village under one, and seeing Kakashi & Sasuke tanked it.... every indicator point to _Tsukuyomai_ not working Rin'negan users



Saikyou said:


> Itachi knows about Soul Rip and Asura path. I doubt he'd engage in Taijutsu with his real body.



Which means he's going to be wasting a plathora of chakra having to camp in _Sasuno'o_



Saikyou said:


> First of all:
> 
> Itachi is better in genjutsu, taijutsu, speed, intelligence, handseals...
> 
> So no, Nagato is not better in everything.



Other than Genjustu, Intelligence & handseals (which Nagato hardly even uses) no.... Itachi does not remain supreme 

Taijustu is debatable as both were able to trump Kakashi in CqC, and fight on par with SM/RM Naruto respectively. If you can't Nagato outpacing of ST as a _shunshin_ feat..... only Ei & RM/BM Naruto are faster than him


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## LostSelf (Feb 26, 2013)

Why are people still bringing the "Nagato couldn't sense totsuka" argument when we all know that it was Kabuto controlling him and didn't know Nagato's sensing skills?.

It's because they don't read the manga or doesn't have a good argument, so they resort to this?


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Feb 26, 2013)

I know Nagato has a doujutsu and whole level or two above itachi's.. However, itachi is not some idiot who relies on his overwhelming power and has limited mobility...

*NAGATO* 
Strengths: Can use all the paths powers (soul snatching, jutsu sealing, attractive force control, mechanical puppet abilities, ect), huge chakra/stamina, good speed and shared vision with his summons...
Weaknesses: Almost no mobility, limited intelligence, No genjutsu offense or defense skills/feats against itachi of all people and reliance on his shared vision. Also, fights head on, not using any indirect attacks/tactics... Relying on his overwhelming power.

*ITACHI*
Strengths: Has the ultimate tsukuyomi that is instant defeat with eye contact, amaterasu that has already been shown to beat nagato (ignites onto w/e itahci looks at) as well as susanoo that did as well with lightning speed.
Overwhelming jutsu speed, genjutsu with SG and fingers, can read the enemy like a book discovering weaknesses (beyond kage level insight) and is the most intelligent shinobi known so far. And fights using bushin's almost all the time that make it almost impossible to hit itachi while his clones are high enough level to use almost any of his jutsu, including MS as well... So itachi can attack you while you cannot hit him with his fighting style...
And SHisui's Kotoamatsukami eye to mind control anyone as a powerful ace in the hole.
Weaknesses: Holds back most of the time due to his gentle nature, is very ill and thus lacking stamina and Health limiting how he uses susanoo.. And can even die if he uses complete susanoo for more then a minute...

CONCLUSION:
Pretty much, Nagato comes out swinging, summoning his summons (cerberus and double bird) to set up his shared vision advantage and to move around on his summon to take away his lack of mobility weakness.
However, Itachi can use amaterasu to defeat the summons very quickly or even use SG genjutsu to take control of them, pitting them against Nagato...

SO itachi takes away some of itachi's eye's and mobility.

but, Nagato summons his salamander summon, hides in it then goes invisible.. Itachi doe snot know where he is... Nagato appears, uses shinrei tensai to send itachi flying, then blitzes behind him to grab him, trapping him between his summon like he did naruto... TSrats drawing out itachi's soul.
Nagato then summon's King Emma Head to share more vision, but a another itachi comes from behind to attack, but nagato grows demon realms arms and stops itachi, wrapping him up...

And as Nagato snatches out itachi's soul, it explodes because it was a water exploding bushin and the one he caught from behind was a Karasu bushin that breaks up and flies around nagato covering his vision. ANd while he is off balance, itachi moves in grabs nagato from behind using his susanoo arm (nagato did not see him coming because itachi put out the eyes of the summon and king emma head as well with Kuani before he counter attacked like before)

And with Nagato under his control and unable to move. Itachi Looks directly into nagato's eyes with his tsukuyomi eye.. Hitting nagato with tsukuyomi, torturing him for three days in an instant... Leaving nagato paralyzed... Able to speak and ask how he did it then pass out and go into a Coma as kakashi did... And since itachi's tsukuyomi's effects cannot be stopped by injecting chakra, only by using a medical ninja of tsunade's level... 
Konan cannot break the effects of tsukuyomi on nagato...

Itachi wins!

Itachi's use of Bushin's is how he easily avoids nagato's powerful jutsu while figuring out his jutsu to immediately form a strategy to beat him..
And Any one of the three MS jutsu can beat Nagato in one go, almost instantly...
Tsukuyomi: By taking away the shared vision of his summons and mobility then making eye contact with nagato. Itachi uses tsukuyomi to put nagato in a coma in an instant with his super hax genjutsu.
Amaterasu: Simply by looking at nagato, itachi can ignite him on fire and not even HG realms power cannot stop it... Only shinrei tensai worked and it still took too long leaving nagato so badly injured, he would have died without being an edo.
Susanoo: Already showed it can block anything nagato throws at him and is so fast with the sword of totsuka. Nagato cannot even react in time to avoid it's piercing attacks...

In fact, Nagato's only way to beat itachi is to use CHibaku tensai and actually catch itachi, not a clone or a genjutsu clone. Thus, forcing itachi to use complete susanoo to protect himself then break out of CT, making itachi over use susanoo and die soon after... So at best, nagato can draw with itachi... Having itahci die from over using susanoo, but still beating nagato...


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## Jυstin (Feb 26, 2013)

Not sure if Kotoamatsukami is part of Itachi's arsenal in this or not. It depends on few things. The possibility of Itachi's Susano'o doing what 8TK Naruto did when trapped in CT. Or the possibility of, with knowledge, being able to destroy CT as soon as it is released. Totsuka, and Susano'o's attacks in general, have been established to be fast, so it was a combination of lack of mobility and reaction. This is a threat to Nagato that he'll have to be careful of.

Despite realizing that Itachi was no longer bound by ET, Nagato's auto-reaction (via ET) wasn't fast enough to prevent the flames (since they are instantaneous), but I would give Nagato the benefit of the doubt and say he could _with precise timing_. If he uses Shinra Tensei too early and has to delay, Itachi can strike and cause debilitating damage. I'm wondering if he can use Preta Path on it or not, since it would have made more sense to absorb the flames when he could rather than repel them. Either way, his timing with that would also need to be perfect, or it will be dangerous. Either way, this will pressure Nagato outside of Susano'o, as well as Itachi's skillful bunshen feints (and even his exploding clone). It's been established that clones can use Susano'o (and can carry unique weapons like Samahada), so this is also a viable diversion or quick-execution attack for Itachi to make use of, even if he can only use it briefly (a few seconds) for a Totsuka barrage, or possibly even multiple Magatama via clones against the core of CT if one is not enough. I don't think Itachi's stamina is that low that he can't manage it for a few seconds. That'd be ridiculously low.

I pretty much don't see Nagato winning without Chou Shinra Tensei/ Cibaku Tensei or Itachi winning without losing an eye (Izanami) and using Susano'o. It's arguable that Itachi's Susano'o could withstand CST's pressure as well. Not sure, but Nagato will need these techniques as Itachi will need Susano'o. I don't see an escape from Izanami, though. Whoever wins, this will be a highly difficult battle requiring nothing short of their strongest techniques. I'm inclined to side with Itachi and his bag of tricks, but I'm gonna say it could go in either direction.


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## Ghost (Feb 26, 2013)

Way to not get my post, Joakim. It was towarded at Torjan's ridiculous Itachi downplaying.

I never said Nagato can't sense. I said that Nagato won't fight Itachi using that OOC style.

Itachi stated that an Uchiha skilled with Sharingan can only break his Tsukuyomi. Sasuke managed to do this not Kakashi. Kakashi was in hospital for days. He never broke or tanked it.

Nagato isn't an Uchiha nor have the Sharingan.

fyi never said Itachi was gonna win either.


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## LostSelf (Feb 26, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> Not sure if Kotoamatsukami is part of Itachi's arsenal in this or not. It depends on few things. The possibility of Itachi's Susano'o doing what 8TK Naruto did when trapped in CT. Or the possibility of, with knowledge, being able to destroy CT as soon as it is released. Totsuka, and Susano'o's attacks in general, have been established to be fast, so it was a combination of lack of mobility and reaction. This is a threat to Nagato that he'll have to be careful of.
> 
> Despite realizing that Itachi was no longer bound by ET, Nagato's auto-reaction (via ET) wasn't fast enough to prevent the flames (since they are instantaneous), but I would give Nagato the benefit of the doubt and say he could _with precise timing_. If he uses Shinra Tensei too early and has to delay, Itachi can strike and cause debilitating damage. I'm wondering if he can use Preta Path on it or not, since it would have made more sense to absorb the flames when he could rather than repel them. Either way, his timing with that would also need to be perfect, or it will be dangerous. Either way, this will pressure Nagato outside of Susano'o, as well as Itachi's skillful bunshen feints (and even his exploding clone). It's been established that clones can use Susano'o (and can carry unique weapons like Samahada), so this is also a viable diversion or quick-execution attack for Itachi to make use of, even if he can only use it briefly (a few seconds) for a Totsuka barrage, or possibly even multiple Magatama via clones against the core of CT if one is not enough. I don't think Itachi's stamina is that low that he can't manage it for a few seconds. That'd be ridiculously low.
> 
> I pretty much don't see Nagato winning without Chou Shinra Tensei/ Cibaku Tensei or Itachi winning without losing an eye (Izanami) and using Susano'o. It's arguable that Itachi's Susano'o could withstand CST's pressure as well. Not sure, but Nagato will need these techniques as Itachi will need Susano'o. I don't see an escape from Izanami, though. Whoever wins, this will be a highly difficult battle requiring nothing short of their strongest techniques. I'm inclined to side with Itachi and his bag of tricks, but I'm gonna say it could go in either direction.



I like this post, but there are some things i just have to add:

Nagato sensing Amaterasu before it's used is dangerous for Itachi, as he can send him flying with Shinra Tensei before Itachi uses it. And Shinra Tensei has been shown to be activated as instantaneous as Amaterasu's speed or less. The only diference with this is that Itachi doesn't know when Nagato is gonna use it, so basically Nagato has the upper hand here.

The next one is Magatama. If one doesn't destroy the core (I seriously doubt it will, since it has no feats and a bijudama failed to do so), more debris will surround it and Itachi will be clashing against a wall. Nagato can, as well, counter attack Itachi while the core is pulling rocks, making his missiles clash with Magatama. Nagato showed he could use more than one path ability at the same time.

The other one is Susano'o clones. Something only Madara, who has not shown any drawbacks from Susano'o and has not shown a bad stamina has done, that is because EMS eliminates the drawbacks, he had Hashirama's cells and was an edo. I don't believe Itachi can manage that since he never resorted to this even as an Edo Tensei.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 26, 2013)

It is hard to argue IC Nagato as IC Nagato was never allowed to show his IC-ness.

Generally it is more ideal to assume they'll use their jutsu as they need, based on their knowledge.


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## Joakim3 (Feb 26, 2013)

Saikyou said:


> Way to not get my post, Joakim. It was towarded at Torjan's ridiculous Itachi downplaying.
> 
> I never said Nagato can't sense. I said that Nagato won't fight Itachi using that OOC style.



It wasn't downplaying.... thats why I commented. 

The gap between Itachi & Nagato *is that* severe which is the reason Kishi made 3 vs. 1 when they fought, he can counter virtually every tactic, ninjutsu or genjustu Itachi could through at him and then some (when he can control his own body and mind)

Unless your name is Naruto, Hashirama, Obito, Madara you really aren't beating the man (under truly equal circumstances)

OoC? Nagato canonically uses shared vision in every fight whether using his _Pein Rikudo_ or himself (at which point sensing is also included). He can literally close his eyes, use sensing and shared vision and fight Itachi with zero hinderance to his person and make _Tsukuyomai_, _Kotoamatsukami_ & _Izanami_ all but useless



Saikyou said:


> Itachi stated that an Uchiha skilled with Sharingan can only break his Tsukuyomi. Sasuke managed to do this not Kakashi. Kakashi was in hospital for days. He never broke or tanked it.



And how many times has manga statements been retconned. Itachi stated he'd die if he fought Jiraiya, feat wise the former would handedly beat the latter

The fact that Kakashi tanked it and still was standing hurts your argument. How you come to a conclusion Nagato does *worse* then part I Kakashi, when he has one of the most hyped bodie's (Uzumaki) and has eyes 3 tiers above him idk.... 



Saikyou said:


> Nagato isn't an Uchiha nor have the Sharingan.
> 
> fyi never said Itachi was gonna win either.



He has an Uzumaki which is hyped and canonically more resilient than Uchiha's bodies, so he already has one up on Sasuke. Oh and the hype of having Madara's literal eyes at his disposal (which he mastered). Every single aspect of the character leans to him being able to break it, or at worst tank it

I never said you said Itachi loses, I was just pointing errors in your response


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## Grimm6Jack (Feb 26, 2013)

Nagato is stronger than Itachi. He's in fact a tier above him. And this is like what? The 10th thread about these two?

The fact that I always see people restricting Nagato in some way or another and not Itachi should already prove how who's the stronger of the two.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 26, 2013)

Nagato's stronger than Itachi and I'd definitely pick him over Itachi if I wanted to fight an entire village like Konoha. Nagato being stronger doesn't necessitate him beating Itachi in a 1 on 1 though.


@Munboy


> Feats only is a flawed stance. By "feats only" we can't assume that Itachi can put multiple foes under Genjutsu (Kakashi feat), nor can we assume he can predict foes in slow motion (Sasuke feat).
> 
> Logically he can, but "feats only" would suggest otherwise because he has no feats.


I agree feats only is something that can be inaccurate. My main issue is not the fact that someone may have a feat, but that we don't even know how or when he uses clones, or if he uses them to feint or to double team. Estimating someone has a technique is one thing, but assuming it in battle without the other factors around it is too open ended for a constructive debate IMO.



> Genjutsu will be hard against a guy who mastered chakra, and the mainstream Ninjutsu. That includes the standard counter to Genjutsu, the 'release' seal.
> Furthermore a sensor type is capable of spotting Genjutsu, Karin showed us this.


No one's immune to genjutsu no matter how skilled. The only questions are if they can detect and break genjutsu, and if they can do so in time before getting killed in the real world. Nagato doesn't know of Itachi's various ways in which to catch opponents in genjutsu, so I doubt he'd succeed in avoiding it altogether throughout an entire fight against an committed Itachi. Nagato's going into this battle thinking to avoid eye contact and just that. We don't know how he'd deal with genjutsu once caught is all. 

Mind you, different sets of eyes will pick up on and largely void false imagery, but Nagato'd still have to break Tsukiyomi if it was used on him.

@Ironman
I understand he was distracted which made it easier for Itachi, that being said it still isn't easy to feint a sensor IMO.



> Nagato has more ways to detect (Linked vision, Rain jutsu + his own sensing) and is a better emotionally stable fighter than Kabuto. And he's fighting only one oponent. Very diferent scenarios, though.


Nagato wasn't able to pinpoint the location of a target within his rain, and had to utilize Konan to do so. Linked vision is good but we don't really know if it'd be around long or Itachi would throw Kunai at them(in the eyes) as he has done in the past. His sensing will persist despite anything Itachi does though.

I wanted to mention that the Deva path was not able to pick up on various feints during the battle of konoha.

Kakashi managed to swap himself out against Deva
Kakashi almost doton-killed(deva couldn't detect he was under his feet)
SM Naruto had left clones to the side of him that almost got him during that last series of FRS in the chibaku tensei debris pile.

Nagato's sensing, assuming Deva has it, hasn't shown to be infallible.


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## LostSelf (Feb 26, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> @Ironman
> I understand he was distracted which made it easier for Itachi, that being said it still isn't easy to feint a sensor IMO.



It's not only being distracted. At the same time Kabuto was put in a hard position for him to maneuver and concentrate accordingly because their combined attack was working on him, allowing Itachi to use trickery more efficiently. 



> Nagato wasn't able to pinpoint the location of a target within his rain, and had to utilize Konan to do so. Linked vision is good but we don't really know if it'd be around long or Itachi would throw Kunai at them(in the eyes) as he has done in the past. His sensing will persist despite anything Itachi does though.
> 
> I wanted to mention that the Deva path was not able to pick up on various feints during the battle of konoha.
> 
> ...



Deva path has not shown to sense. Nor the other paths since they are just puppets used for Nagato and this is not a jutsu, it's an ability. Nagato is the only one that showed to do this.

The Rain jutsu would just help Nagato's sensing to know how many Itachi's are on the field and where. Making it easier than doing it with his sensing abilities alone.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 27, 2013)

> It's not only being distracted. At the same time Kabuto was put in a hard position for him to maneuver and concentrate accordingly because their combined attack was working on him, allowing Itachi to use trickery more efficiently.


Itachi can use combination attacks all the same to distract Nagato for a feint. He could use a weak genjutsu while launching a katon like he did against Killer Bee, or use kage bushin, or use susanoo and have nagato focused on the wrong target. Or use magatama to unbalance the target and leave it open. Sasuke's presence isn't a necessity to feint Nagato imo, and we are being lenient by assuming Nagato would need the same amount of distraction Kabuto needed to be fainted.



> Deva path has not shown to sense. Nor the other paths since they are just puppets used for Nagato and this is not a jutsu, it's an ability. Nagato is the only one that showed to do this.


Fair enough.



> The Rain jutsu would just help Nagato's sensing to know how many Itachi's are on the field and where. Making it easier than doing it with his sensing abilities alone.


Why would Nagato immediately use the rain storm IC against Itachi though?

Nagato doesn't exactly know Itachi is a frequent clone user. Deva didn't use it against SM Naruto either who was always using clones throughout the battle of konoha.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 28, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> @Munboy
> I agree feats only is something that can be inaccurate. My main issue is not the fact that someone may have a feat, but that we don't even know how or when he uses clones, or if he uses them to feint or to double team. Estimating someone has a technique is one thing, but assuming it in battle without the other factors around it is too open ended for a constructive debate IMO.



We've seen for what purpose clones are used for, and thus we can come to a conclusion on how an average shinobi can use them. We've seen all sorts of shinobi do it, so we can extrapolate with reason. It is easier as we got the 'mastery' part.



> No one's immune to genjutsu no matter how skilled. The only questions are if they can detect and break genjutsu, and if they can do so in time before getting killed in the real world. Nagato doesn't know of Itachi's various ways in which to catch opponents in genjutsu, so I doubt he'd succeed in avoiding it altogether throughout an entire fight against an committed Itachi. Nagato's going into this battle thinking to avoid eye contact and just that. We don't know how he'd deal with genjutsu once caught is all.



I didn't assert immunity. Nagato _knows_ Itachi has Genjutsu skill, remember their Edo discussions?

We know how _every_ shinobi deals with Genjutsu when caught. They join their hands and use a 'release' seal. Just as Jiraiya did, which has been present ever since e.g. with Oonoki and well before e.g. those who got out of Kabuto's Genjutsu.
We also know Nagato is skilled, very skilled, with all the conventional Ninjutsu. That looks pretty conventional. As such as can reasonably assert that Nagato can do something every shinobi can.

Furthermore sensors _can_ tell if they're under Genjutsu.



> Mind you, different sets of eyes will pick up on and largely void false imagery, but Nagato'd still have to break Tsukiyomi if it was used on him.



I didn't say he didn't have to. However he's got Madara's eyes, meaning he's got Rinnegan and beneath that all Madara's other eyes. I'm not saying he'll be busting out Susanoo, I'm saying the ocular 'fortress' gives him a very powerful resistance. Seeing as an Uchiha like Sasuke could break it without any higher eyes. 
Furthermore Nagato's Senju part is so strong that that combined with Madara's eyes make him a fully fledged Rikudou; one with Uchiha and Senju genes.

Long story short: Nagato's more than qualified to overcome Tsukuyomi.


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## LostSelf (Feb 28, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> Itachi can use combination attacks all the same to distract Nagato for a feint. He could use a weak genjutsu while launching a katon like he did against Killer Bee, or use kage bushin, or use susanoo and have nagato focused on the wrong target. Or use magatama to unbalance the target and leave it open. Sasuke's presence isn't a necessity to feint Nagato imo, and we are being lenient by assuming Nagato would need the same amount of distraction Kabuto needed to be fainted.



Itachi and Sasuke failed to surprise Kabuto by themselves. Throwing a Katon would just make Nagato absorb it without being put in a hard position or losing his concentration. The thing with Kabuto was, that 2 Susano'o against him was making things way too hard for him, dodging and concentrating. And even like that he was able to dodge Itachi's feints.

Nagato has shown the reflexes to react to a FRS coming from a Smokescreen while stabbing two surprise clones at the same time. And that was without sensing. Itachi, to do the above or what he did to KB, would have to make Nagato lose his concentration, putting him in a hard position, or pressuring him. Just like happened to Kabuto. But with Nagato's defense and superior firepower i see this being the opposite.



> Why would Nagato immediately use the rain storm IC against Itachi though?
> 
> Nagato doesn't exactly know Itachi is a frequent clone user. Deva didn't use it against SM Naruto either who was always using clones throughout the battle of konoha.


He doesn't need to use it inmediately. I don't think he would need it to sense him adequately when he has all the path's power at his disposal and has a powerful defense and ofense.


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## Jυstin (Feb 28, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> I like this post, but there are some things i just have to add:
> 
> Nagato sensing Amaterasu before it's used is dangerous for Itachi, as he can send him flying with Shinra Tensei before Itachi uses it. And Shinra Tensei has been shown to be activated as instantaneous as Amaterasu's speed or less. The only diference with this is that Itachi doesn't know when Nagato is gonna use it, so basically Nagato has the upper hand here.
> 
> ...



Yes. I figured as much. Nagato would be able to use it. He only has to time it precisely. As for hitting Itachi with it, I believe (or at least it was suggested in the manga) that concentrating chakra to one's feet can fight the push of Shinra Tensei (in the same manner that it fights gravity when walking on walls). It also depends on its range vs Amaterasu's. I also believe Susano'o could keep Itachi grounded. CT is also one I'm not 100% sure of. I think it depends on how soon the core is attacked. Imo, Madara was able to maintian so many Susano'o just because he had an unlimited supply of chakra. If (and only if) this is the case, I could see him being able to use multiple Susano'o briefly, if he needs to launch multiple strings of Magatama. This is only if though.

I personally believe Nagato has this (though I still think Susano'o with the mirror has a shot of tanking CT, if only just a shot, and would definitely be a threat, on top of Izanami and [if allowed] Kotoamatsukami). Itachi's on a level and possesses the tools to make victory possible, but Nagato's is more probable. I'm kinda torn. I originally thought Nagato without a doubt due to his hype and the reputation and mystery around him, but now not nearly as much. I think that Nagato has the advantage though due to his plethora of powerful techniques and the sheer amount of stamina Nagato has to spam them. Itachi just possesses the hax abilities and skills with them to make winning a possibility, but more often Nagato would win.

Though it's not too hard for me to admit this of Nagato's superiority. Look at what he did to Naruto and Bee D:


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## Totsuka Blitz (Mar 1, 2013)

Without Naruto and Bee to divert Nagato, Itachi gets his full attention. CT, CST BT and soul rip - there are many ways Nagato can beat Itachi. Plus Nagato can summon Gedo Mazo? I mean does the OP not want the fight to be fair? Nagato wins the match comfortably. I like Itachi but I personally feel Nagato is a Tier above him. No Totsuka Blitz happening here


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## Jizznificent (Mar 1, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Well said I agree with your post, I feel nagato is more powerful, but Itachi is smarter and slightly more skilled then nagato, in a fight odds favor nagato but Itachi can possibly pull a rabbit out his hat due to his intellect and skill.


indeed. although, we have seen a number of cases where intelligent fighter were outsmarted, or tricked if you will, by less intelligent opponents (even if temporarily). i just wanted to point that out, not necessarily to you.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 1, 2013)

Nagato's one Path, the Preta Path, completely makes Amaterasu, Susanoo and other Ninjutsu useless.
God Realm and Animal Realm, when used right make weaponry useless.

Due to the Preta Path, Itachi is _forced_ in CQC. However the Preta, Hell, Human, Demon and God Paths make that a horrible move too.

Add certain things on top like Nagato's impressive speed as a 'cripple' (implications for his prime are great), his sensory skill and his jutsu mastery (the breadth of the jutsu he has)... Then it becomes hard to say that Nagato doesn't stomp Itachi.

This is one of those cases where Itachi's opponent really has too many counters.


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## Dr. White (Mar 1, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Nagato's one Path, the Preta Path, completely makes Amaterasu, Susanoo and other Ninjutsu useless.
> God Realm and Animal Realm, when used right make weaponry useless.
> 
> Due to the Preta Path, Itachi is _forced_ in CQC. However the Preta, Hell, Human, Demon and God Paths make that a horrible move too.
> ...



Not really, I don't get where you believe that Nagato has this upmost physical skill in where he can outmanuever Itachi. His best Mobility is with the chameleon which showed one good straight line feet with flight, other than that it is nothing to much for Itachi to handle.

Nagato by himself cannot get in position to become a threat to Itachi without summons. Naruto and Bee stupidly blitzed in getting caught like fish in a net, but ITachi already has shown he is smart enough to avoid the double vision. Susano makes all of his jutsu barring CT useless as none of them strike faster thank kirin and none of them can bust susano stage 4/yata.

Preta can't absorb Amaterasu, and is useless vs Tsukuyomi and Susano. 

I'm not saying that Itachi wins here, but saying that it is hard to say he doenst get stomped is pushing it bud


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 2, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Not really, I don't get where you believe that Nagato has this upmost physical skill in where he can outmanuever Itachi. His best Mobility is with the chameleon which showed one good straight line feet with flight, other than that it is nothing to much for Itachi to handle.



Clearly the chameleon didn't move seeing as it caught Naruto _who landed in a location *considerably* further from where Nagato intercepted Bee._

That's as a cripple that Kabuto said isn't mobile enough. There's ground to say that the Senju bodied healthy Nagato can be more than Itachi can handle. Especially since the bursts of speed the cripple showed outstrip anything Itachi has shown.



> Nagato by himself cannot get in position to become a threat to Itachi without summons. Naruto and Bee stupidly blitzed in getting caught like fish in a net, but ITachi already has shown he is smart enough to avoid the double vision. Susano makes all of his jutsu barring CT useless as none of them strike faster thank kirin and none of them can bust susano stage 4/yata.



Without summons? Why is that? You need to prove to me Nagato didn't move at all for you to persuade me.

Naruto and Bee got caught because they were the targets. Kabuto essentially forgot about Itachi has he wasn't a priority; not the case here. And Kabuto isn't controlling Nagato; Nagato knows all his skills like sensing. Lets for forget he's fully mobile, Kabuto believed that's the only factor that stopped his controlled Nagato from beating all three.

Itachi is shown he is smart enough to avoid a rookie using shared vision; Nagato showed he is smart enough to never lose a battle. Nagato only ever lost battles where he wasn't in control or where he forfeited.
In terms of battle smarts Nagato clearly has Itachi outstripped as his record is more impressive.

That's incorrect because you assume Susanoo cannot be absorbed- Susanoo is a chakra construct. Clearly the Preta Path nullifies it.
With the massive difference, I doubt Chibaku Tensei will come in.



> Preta can't absorb Amaterasu, and is useless vs Tsukuyomi and Susano.



Preta can't absorb Amaterasu since when? Two of the jutsu you mentioned are composed of chakra thus can be absorbed by chakra absorber. Since Nagato absorbed Sage Chakra and Bijuu Chakra with no issies; we know there is no form of chakra immune to the Preta Path's fury.

Tsukuyomi couldn't work on an Uchiha with the base Sharingan; it won't be effective on a Rikudou with the Rinnegan.


Based on all that I can say Itachi does get stomped. Especially when your counter arguments were that Itachi's jutsu cannot be absorbed, that Tsukuyomi could work on someone with Madara's eyes+a Senju Body, and that Nagato didn't move without explaining why.


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## Dr. White (Mar 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> > Clearly the chameleon didn't move seeing as it caught Naruto _who landed in a location *considerably* further from where Nagato intercepted Bee._
> 
> 
> What on Earth are you talking about? Nagato's only real feat of speed was catching Bee after he got plummeted by CST, which he used a summon to due. It was clear that Nagato could not move hence needing Itachi/summons to do the moving for him. Even when he replinished on chakra, he was not moving wildly or even much, and the feat you speak of is prior to him receiving bee's chakra. If Nagato could replicate that feet the consequences would be A.) him not being debilatated physically anymore, and B.) him having immense speed on the field faster than even sage mode. We know this flat out isn't true as Itachi was helping him walk while not in combat and Nagato plain out admitted he was motionless until he summoned.
> ...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 2, 2013)

@Dr White

We've seen CST and that wasn't CST. On top of that, for a cripple whose mobility is considered inadequate, _that's_ impressive. We can only imagine how it is like when he's healthy; in this thread we're forced to.

Of course he couldn't move then, but the bursts of movements were some of the fastest base-speed we've seen. That is a good citation because in this thread, he's mobile.

Chakra would've restored Nagato given he was emaciated due to chakra deprivation; so I don't see what you're going with here. Furthermore when he got behind Bee and dodged Bee; he was emaciated and cripped. That only leads us to believe his healthy state is pretty speedy.

The other points are irrelevant because it addresses a Nagato _not_ in this thread.


Nagato's prime body wasn't given a full fight; even when restored and crippled someone else's mind had to do the fighting. 
Itachi level is a generic speedster, aside from hand seals it is nothing really special. After all no-one remarked on any speed being out of the ordinary aside from his seal speed.

You said "IMO" meaning you've not got the grounds to suggest that Nagato _wouldn't_ be able to outstrip Itachi. Especially as you're comparing one instance to Itachi's many. Whilst not regarding the fact his crippled state moved noticeably fast.

Elite Jonin is something you've got to prove as fellows like Hanzo, Zetsu and Jiraiya thought otherwise upon seeing his eyes. Just recalling a child Nagato's skills, Jiraiya forced himself to use Sennin Mode from the get go. That doesn't sound like an elite Jonin.

Lets rephrase the question, do we believe that physically Itachi is superior to a Senju? The way he got to Killer Bee and avoided him, emaciated and the way he lunged towards Naruto... pretty fast. I've never seen Itachi do this without some distraction (while he's enhanced or healthy) whereas Nagato literally ran to Naruto with the guy looking at him. 
Bear in mind we're talking about a handicapped guy; yes Itachi would be faster than Nagato simply because Nagato's mobility is severely limited. However we cannot look past the fact Nagato's bursts of speed were more impressive.

Now in this thread Nagato is healthy and mobile. Yes I believe a healthy and mobile Nagato is faster than Itachi. Especially as he's an Uzumaki with particularly strong Senju traits. Last I remember, the Senju did have superior body qualities compared to the Uchiha.


If you're so sure of this stance, show me this flying summon (it was burned) and also show me that the chameleon showed me. Looking at the pages I cannot see signs of either of those. So, no matter how illogical the fiction is, we've got to accept the only thing the panels suggest: Nagato moved on his own. Then there's the fact he avoid Bee's fist. 

Why Kishi did that, I don't know. However he did, and unless anybody can show otherwise then it is what it looked like: Nagato did all that.
So no, the evidence isn't in your favour.

Above the rest as in different, nothing more and it wasn't a statement to look much into. Something to look into would be that Kabuto explicitly said that he only lost with Nagato for mobility reasons, in addition to his upset expression when he lost Nagato. We got nothing like that for Itachi. The general vibe is, even in the puppet master's view is that Nagato is above Itachi. 

The fact is once he used the Shinra Tensei he was more fascinated with Nagato's power and how it could capture the Jinchuriki than he was with Itachi's escape. Itachi took advantage of him being the smallest priority; Kabuto wanted the Jinchuriki more than he did Itachi. 
We can insult Naruto and Bee to make Itachi look better, but that isn't appropriate. Naruto had his dumb moment _once_, however he couldn't have foreseen a summon that not even the Sharingan could see. Furthermore Killer Bee never fought anyone like Nagato, so why should we call him a fool for falling for things _we knew_ he would?
We knew Nagato's abilities prior the fight unlike Bee.

But I must ask, what relevance does this section have to the point you're making?

He didn't even know Nagato could sense, obviously he'd be a rookie. He didn't know Nagato's full abilities. One thing that would've changed the battle. Furthermore as Nagato fought Naruto, he'd know there are foes capable of getting out of CT; Kabuto clearly didn't. For instance, God Realm (Nagato's mind) actually moved when he used CT whereas Nagato (Kabuto's mind) kept him idle. 

Also when and how did Itachi figure out Nagato's arsenal apart from shared vision?
I don't see what point you're trying to make with Naruto. Considering the guy who Nagato focused on was near helpless compared to the guy who was more or less forgotten about. 


What? Chakra is chakra, that Path has absorbed all Ninjutsu regardless of force e.g. FRS and Jinton.
Totsuka doesn't seal anything it pierces instantly, unlike the Preta Path.

I've seen this "spiritual weapon" argument before and it is very unsupported. Spiritual, the last time something in the manga was called spiritual... it turned out to be made of chakra (Tayuya's creatures).
Now, what ever alludes that it isn't chakra?

Preta Path absorbs _any_ chakra, Rasengan (base) has no nature.


Where are you getting this? Amaterasu is Ninjutsu, and we've seen all sorts of chakra (even Bijuu and Sage chakra) become useless in front of the Preta Path. So why should I believe Amaterasu (Enton chakra) should be excluded?
Natural energy (when absorbing Sage Mode while the user enters it) isn't comparable to Amaterasu which is a Ninjutsu.

Edo Tensei couldn't react to other Edo Tensei's attacks; Muu and Nidaime Mizukage's exchange made that clear.

Why absorb when it'd be faster to simply repel them? However you're seemingly asserting that Amaterasu has properties of one of the things that aren't absorbent, such as pure natural energy. Everything points to Amaterasu being a Ninjutsu; do you have something suggesting otherwise?
The instance with Muki Tensei just hyped the heat of the flames, nothing more special than that.


Are you really in the position to call bullshit if you're going to assert Sasuke *didn't* break Tsukuyomi for real? 
I'm sorry but you need stronger evidence for that because the "Itachi held back" doesn't fly well here. Yes he held back; he didn't use Susanoo to harm Sasuke.

Ah, but a Rikudou is one with Uchiha and Senju DNA; despite not having the blood and not having the Rinnegan since birth... he's an acknowledged Rikudou. In other words, he somehow meets the criteria of having adequate control over Uchiha and Senju DNA.

Nagato's not as good in Genjutsu? Who said he was? I said he has all the tools to make Itachi's Genjutsu obsolete which you've not touched on.

Furthermore these factors you pointed out involved exaggerating a statement (Itachi not wanting Sasuke dead) and disregarding facts (Nagato having Uchiha-Senju DNA; he's classed as someone who does regardless of how he got them). So it doesn't cause my initial point to diminish in any way.



In Nagato's case it does; hence Zetsu felt compelled to tell Obito that Nagato was given the Rinnegan due to his Senju heritage. 
His prime feats, for a moment were possibly elite Jonin. However we learnt he was more with being a Senju and the fact his crippled state showed impressive speed for a state considered to be relatively immobile. 

Who said Nagato has Sharingan powers? Did you read what I posted? Even though he's got the Rinnegan's powers, he still has the other eyes layered beneath despite not being conscious of it. All of which give his eyes a sure defense for Tsukuyomi, coupled with his Senju body.


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## Jizznificent (Mar 2, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> *Preta wasn't even able to absorb Natural chakra due to it's properties*,


i believe this is a misconception. preta is perfectly able to absorb natural chakra/sage chakra, even in large quantities, so long as the sage chakra is already balanced. we have seen preta pain absorb SM jiraiya's cho oodama rasengan; we have even seen it absorb , which is the combined sage chakra of three sages, creating a large lake full of sage chakra in the form of extremely hot oil. it also absorbed SM naruto's henge and absorbed his SM FRS no problem. it even undid naruto's sage mode once without turning into a stone, by absorbing all the sage chakra naruto had left at the time. so absorbing sage chakra - sage chakra that is already balanced - is no problem for preta. 

the reason why preta pain turned to stone when naruto tried to re-enter sage mode is because preta pain was absorbing too much *unbalanced* sage chakra, while naruto was *in the process* of balancing it (balancing his physical and spiritual energy with natural energy to make sage chakra). sage chakra has to be balanced in order for wielder to enter sage mode. if the sage chakra is unbalanced, the wielder potentially could turn to stone.  however, it took preta a little while before he started turning to stone, so we can deduce from that that preta pain (nagato) can handle some amount of unbalanced sage chakra.  

to put it simply:

- preta pain is perfectly able to absorb sage chakra.
- preta pain can absorb *some amount* *of unbalanced* sage chakra.
- preta pain cannot absorb an *excess amount of unbalanced* sage chakra without turning to stone.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 2, 2013)

> to put it simply:
> 
> - preta pain is perfectly able to absorb sage chakra.
> - preta pain can absorb some amount of unbalanced sage chakra.
> - preta pain cannot absorb an excess amount of unbalanced sage chakra without turning to stone.



In addition, the last point can only ever occur when the Preta Path is being used on a victim who is _entering_ Sage Mode. Especially as that Path was able to absorb a balanced Sage Mode before as well as large quantities of Senjutsu.


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## Baroxio (Mar 2, 2013)

Can we just table debate on this already?

I, Baroxio, an Ascendant who willingly bears the crest of the King in his signature, speaking on behalf of Itachi fans everywhere, do admit that Nagato is more powerful than Itachi, and would likely defeat him under fair conditions.

That does not mean that Itachi can never win under any condition, nor does it mean that Itachi is completely out of his league against the third Rikudo. But for now, Nagato is the stronger of the two. Itachi is roughly around Minato's tier, both are under Nagato.

I could choose to start a shitstorm here by mentioning that Itachi is likely stronger than Minato, but I won't. 

At least, not loudly.


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## Rocky (Mar 2, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> I could choose to start a shitstorm here by mentioning that Itachi is likely stronger than Minato, but I won't.
> 
> At least, not loudly.



Many people know I'm fan of the 4th Hokage, but I actually think that Itachi has the perfect style to fight Minato. He's reliant on subtle tricks and illusions, rather than flashy power moves. He also boasts a great mind, like Minato.

Itachi isn't "stronger" than Minato. I actually believe Minato is the more powerful one, but Itachi is a great match-up, and would thus win a fight between the two (with great difficulty). For now, that is, until Minato is power-inflated just as Itachi was, courtesy of Edo Tensei.


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## ImSerious (Mar 2, 2013)

lol itachi beating minato.


thats hilarious.


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## Dr. White (Mar 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> -Snip-


Contention 1.) Nagato did not move from his summon to get behind bee, this is ludicrous to believe and all evidence points towards this not happening, edo Itachi could not have pulled off the feat you're suggesting *crippled Nagato did.
*, he used his summons to get there please accept this, as i find it extremely redundant and time wasting to sit here and try to prove to you how a crippled Nagato did not pull off a feat on Minato level. Also Mnato was chakra replienished when he got behind bee as you say.

-The second feat you speak of was Naruto trying to blitz Nagato and him being grabbed. There was no blitz on Nagato's part, Naruto essentially came right to Nagato, who then trapped Naruto with his path powers.

Contention 2: Prime Nagato, and his paths are no where on the level of Itachi physically. Speed wise he can fight SM users in CqC(without double vision) and shadow people like bee while avoiding his Sameheda strikes, and blocked his 7 sword strike with a kunai. There really is no argument here, not to say that the paths themselves are slouches, but prime Nagato has no feats....Also you realize Prime Nagato is the version that fought with Hanzo correct? Prior to attaching Gedo, he wasn't really a threat to hanzo, and certaintly didn't show anything special physically, not even being able to react to Yahiko who killed himself on Nagato's kunai.

Contention 3: Nagato does not gain Sharingan abilities or counters. yes I understand that Rinnengan is the mutation of sharingan, but that does not give us leeway to claim it can tank Tsukuyomi. Manga and databooks clearly state 2 things needed: Uchiha blood and sharingan. Seeing as Nagato did not train with sharingan and wasn't able to devolve back to it(as Edo Madara was) it is safe to assume he does not gain the counters/ablities of sharingan.(also note Madara was able to use Susano with Rinnengan active), Tsukuyomi will end him.

Contention 4: Sasuke only broke Tsukuyomi and survived that match because Itachi let him, I don't know what else to say bro. Tobi straight up confirmed Sasuke would have been dead from the start had Itachi been serious, and once again Itachi obviously planned for Sasuke to break the Tsukuyomi. Either one of two things would have happened: Sasuke breaks the Tsukuyomi to fight on, Sasuke doesn't and gets soloed. Considering what we know about Itchi's plans and intentions for that fight, which option do you think Itachi was going for? It is manga canon that he used MS to draw out Orochimaru(and most likely to keep Sasuke thinking he was evil), meaning *bringing up Sasuke' countering Itachi in that fight, is pointless* relatively speaking, one could certainly make the case that Sasuke was able to atleast spar with not serious itachi but anything more is intellectually dishonest.


Contention 5: You committing an equivocation fallacy in that you keep equating Uzumaki and senju together as the same family. Uzumaki are a sort of cousin clan to the senju, and they have especially great durability/longetivity. This is most likely since Senju inherited toe Sage's body traits, but all of this is irrelevant to this match up. Just because Senju have better bodies than Uchiha, does not mean all Senju > Uchiha in physical stats lol  . W have to use feats here brah, and so far Nagato has nothing to suggest that even healthy he would be as faster or faster than Itachi. You'r using a weak argument that isn't really evidenced. 

Contention 6: Amaterasu has been shown time and time again to be an extremely special jutsu, unless sealed it will burn for 7 days. Preta abosring it will onyl destroy the path, just as absorbing the foreign Nature chakra did. Nature chakra had strange qualities, as Ama does to. I don't see how they absorb it. Once again Nagato would have absorbed the flames if he could to save himself less injury. On this point, while edo tensei may not be able to hit eachother they surely can dodge. Nothing evidences that solely because it was Itachi attacking: that Nagato couldn't dodge, in fact Itachi tells Nagato he has broken free before hitting him and his bird with amaterasu(not to mention he just soloed cerberus in front of him) meaning Nagato could not dodge.


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## Jizznificent (Mar 3, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In addition, the last point can only ever occur when the Preta Path is being used on a victim who is _entering_ Sage Mode. Especially as that Path was able to absorb a balanced Sage Mode before as well as large quantities of Senjutsu.


ah yes that is correct.


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## LordSnow (Mar 10, 2013)

Still. How does Itachi beat Gedo Mazo? How does he beat Chibaku Tensei?
If you seriously think Itachi can win you have a problem. 

@Itachi stronger than Minato
lol...


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## Rain (Mar 10, 2013)

LordSnow said:


> Still. How does Itachi beat Gedo Mazo? How does he beat Chibaku Tensei?



He doesn't. He ends the fight before it gets to that stage. Just like against Orochimaru and Deidara (Of course not that easily).




> If you seriously think Itachi can win you have a problem.



Really? What kind of problem, do tell us?




> @Itachi stronger than Minato
> lol...



Itachi soloes.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 10, 2013)

Rain said:


> He doesn't. He ends the fight before it gets to that stage. Just like against Orochimaru and Deidara (Of course not that easily).


There are no scenarios whatsoever where Itachi can win, Rain. Nagato has the far stronger dojutsu and has mastery over Yin Release, Itachi's genjutsu is unlikely to work. Nagato has the stronger ninjutsu. Nagato has the stronger taijutsu. Nagato was able to blitz Bee, something Itachi couldn't do. Nagato his stronger physically by leaps and bounds over Itachi. And contrary to the opinion, Nagato isn't a strategic idiot. 




> Really? What kind of problem, do tell us?


Since in canon, even against a mind-controlled Nagato, Itachi required loads and loads of help to win against him?





> Itachi soloes.


No, he really doesn't.


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## Phenom II (Mar 10, 2013)

Since I am tired of typing paragraph after paragraph for this fight. In a nutshell, Nagato beats Itachi in almost everything I can think of. He takes this with mid difficulty.


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## Dr. White (Mar 10, 2013)

Nagato wins High Diff 8/10 times


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 10, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Nagato wins High Diff 8/10 times


Mid difficulty at most. Nagato was just put on a higher tier than Itachi in the manga, Itachi needing backup just to get into striking distance and backup again for a technique Nagato seems to be able to use regularly (Chibaku Tensei). Tell me, if Nagato just ops for Chibaku Tensei, how does Itachi break out of it? Or how does Itachi survive the Village Crushing Shinra Tensei? Or how does he find the chameleon (he couldn't see it in the first place)?


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## Dr. White (Mar 10, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Mid difficulty at most. Nagato was just put on a higher tier than Itachi in the manga, Itachi needing backup just to get into striking distance and backup again for a technique Nagato seems to be able to use regularly (Chibaku Tensei). Tell me, if Nagato just ops for Chibaku Tensei, how does Itachi break out of it? Or how does Itachi survive the Village Crushing Shinra Tensei? Or how does he find the chameleon (he couldn't see it in the first place)?



No they both pretty much have full knowledge here, and that is gonna result in them bring out the big guns here. Itachi will press him with Ama from the beginning and use Susano to defend since he knows how Hax Nagato is. He would devise a one shot plan like Minato did, and that's what this fight comes down to, Itachi's planning and analyzation vs Nagato's overwhelming raw power and utility. I for one believe that Itachi would be able to press Nagato because 
-Ama kills all of his summons, and there is no conceivable way that Nagato dodges Amaterasu(assuming Itachi does mid combat, not while standing right in front of him, even though he already accomplished that cannon)
-If Itachi gets close enough or Nagato slips up Tsukuyomi ends this match.
-I believe a Yagasaki, and or totsuka hit to the center core from the very beginning of its launch could destroy the core, but of course this requires Itachi to be close to nagato, and aware he is casting said jutsu.

I see Nagato winning more often than not because of his large Aoe abilities, but Susano offers ample protection and Nagato's only real sure kill shot is CT, and soul rip(which will be hard to accomplish against a genjutsu/clone feint master, who can also use Susano to form around him and injure nagato: assuming the latter wrapped him up.) while Itachi's 3 MS jutsu can amply kill Nagato and his summons. 

All in all I would agree with you that this fight could be anywhere from Mid-High Diff for Nagato, but 8/10 times as Itachi has the tools to beat Nagato and is one of the very few characters in the verse with the brains, physical skill, and combat efficiency to pull it off. Also I'm talking about Healthy Nagato vs Healthy Itachi here.


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## Rain (Mar 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Nagato has the far stronger dojutsu and has mastery over Yin Release, Itachi's genjutsu is unlikely to work.



Never in the manga was it stated that Rinnegan gives it's user any sort of defense against genjutsu. Sharigan is a completely different dojutsu.

Rinnegan doesn't give its bearer any MS jutsu, why should it give him genjutsu protection?




> Nagato has the stronger ninjutsu.



Yet the only jutsu in his arsenal that stands a chance against Susano'o is CT, and now that Itachi has knowledge, he will destroy the core as soon as it's made. 

Where is your god now?




> Nagato has the stronger taijutsu.



Not really if Itachi activates his Susano'o. Nagato was already blitzed by its activation in CQC once.





> Nagato was able to blitz Bee, something Itachi couldn't do.



When the hell did that happen? Itachi blitzed Bee from a far greater distance.



> Nagato his stronger physically by leaps and bounds over Itachi.



Until Itachi enters Susano'o-mode.



> And contrary to the opinion, Nagato isn't a strategic idiot.



He really shouldn't be compared to Itachi in that department. 



> Since in canon, even against a mind-controlled Nagato, Itachi required loads and loads of help to win against him?



If Itachi didn't have to save Naruto and B he would've ended the fight with Totsuka before CT came into play.





> No, he really doesn't.


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## Monkey D Dragon (Mar 13, 2013)

Rain said:


> Never in the manga was it stated that Rinnegan gives it's user any sort of defense against genjutsu. Sharigan is a completely different dojutsu.
> 
> Rinnegan doesn't give its bearer any MS jutsu, why should it give him genjutsu protection?
> 
> ...



Damn you just solo'd this thread. Nagato doesn't have the mobility to keep up with Itachi. Now that it's settled Itachi wins with mid-high diff. close this before it gets out of hand.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 13, 2013)

Rain said:


> Never in the manga was it stated that Rinnegan gives it's user any sort of defense against genjutsu. Sharigan is a completely different dojutsu.
> 
> Rinnegan doesn't give its bearer any MS jutsu, why should it give him genjutsu protection?


The Rinnegan is the Sharingan's ultimate evolution in the manga, and its progenitor. We even see in the manga the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan evolving to the Rinnegan after Madara had Senju DNA for a long while. It gives the user mastery over all Nature Transformations, Yin Release, Yang Release, and Yin-Yang release (all of which Nagato mastered, something still completely unprecedented). Yin Release is where Genjutsu comes from.

Oh, one more thing. Chapter 12 of the manga explicitly said ALL Dojutsu provide defenses against ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu. Why would the Rinnegan, the strongest dojutsu of the series, be vulnerable to a lesser dojutsu's genjutsu?

Do the math. 



> Yet the only jutsu in his arsenal that stands a chance against Susano'o is CT, and now that Itachi has knowledge, he will destroy the core as soon as it's made.
> 
> Where is your god now?


...CT is the only thing? Dear god, Deva Path can either blow Susano'o apart due to its anti-ninjutsu properties, or Preta Path can consume Susano'o since it's a chakra construct. 

And guess what-_it took all three of their attacks to destroy CT's core._ Bijudama alone wouldn't work. Futon: Rasenshuriken alone wouldn't work. And those attacks, from feats, are loads higher than Itachi's Yasaka Magatama which can't do it alone.

Where's your's? You're ignoring things blatantly in the manga.



> Not really if Itachi activates his Susano'o. Nagato was already blitzed by its activation in CQC once.


You mean a _mind-controlled Nagato_ which has lower reflexes than he does normally, and who STUPIDLY DIDN'T HAVE PRETA PATH UP. Nagato _blitzed Bee_ completely despite being crippled, Itachi couldn't do the same.






> When the hell did that happen? Itachi blitzed Bee from a far greater distance.


Shinra Tensei blows Nagato away and Nagato appears behind him. 

That's a blitz.


> Until Itachi enters Susano'o-mode.


Which Itachi can't maintain for long. Which Nagato can consume with Preta Path, repel with Deva Path, yank him out with Bansho Ten'in, etc. 




> He really shouldn't be compared to Itachi in that department.


Nagato defeated all of Konoha via strategy. He defeated Naruto, who needed to be rescued via strategy. 

Itachi's 'strategies' usually rely on his weekly Deus Ex Machina.


> If Itachi didn't have to save Naruto and B he would've ended the fight with Totsuka before CT came into play.


...and what's stopping Nagato from *sensing* Itachi, activating Preta Path, and consuming Totsuka? 

The manga _flat out said and shown_ that it took all three of them to win. Itachi couldn't even get close to the mind-controlled Nagato (Kabuto had no idea Nagato was a sensor in the first place) without Naruto and Bee distracting him.




>


And you just prove you shouldn't be taken seriously and that you're probably trying to get a rise.



DBZTard said:


> Damn you just solo'd this thread. Nagato doesn't have the mobility to keep up with Itachi. Now that it's settled Itachi wins with mid-high diff. close this before it gets out of hand.


No, he ignored Nagato's advantages, his sensing, and all of his other abilities. 

Itachi can't win. He was put explicitly on a lower tier. It took _Itachi, Naruto, AND Bee_ just to defeat the fucking Mind Controlled Nagato. With one who usually fights like he did against Naruto or Jiraiya, on top of his prime abilities? Itachi has no fucking chance and its a lie, and a gross overestimation of his abilities.


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## Monkey D Dragon (Mar 13, 2013)

Congratulations SuperSaiyaMan 12 you have officially been put on my Ignore list. Have a nice life.


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## Rocky (Mar 13, 2013)

Rain said:


> Yet the only jutsu in his arsenal that stands a chance against Susano'o is CT, and now that Itachi has knowledge, he will destroy the core as soon as it's made.
> 
> Where is your god now?
> i



Where exactly was it said that Magatama alone is enough to destroy the black core?


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## Rain (Mar 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The Rinnegan is the Sharingan's ultimate evolution in the manga, and its progenitor. We even see in the manga the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan evolving to the Rinnegan after Madara had Senju DNA for a long while. It gives the user mastery over all Nature Transformations, Yin Release, Yang Release, and Yin-Yang release (all of which Nagato mastered, something still completely unprecedented). Yin Release is where Genjutsu comes from.



Do tell me then, why the almighty Rinnegan doesn't posses the Mangekyo Sharingan and base sharingan abilities (lesser dojutsu)?

Rinnegan is a completely independant dojutsu, as can be seen through its abilities.



> Oh, one more thing. Chapter 12 of the manga explicitly said ALL Dojutsu provide defenses against ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu. Why would the Rinnegan, the strongest dojutsu of the series, be vulnerable to a lesser dojutsu's genjutsu?



Ugh, what defense does Rinnegan provide against taijutsu?




> ...CT is the only thing? Dear god, Deva Path can either blow Susano'o apart due to its anti-ninjutsu properties, or Preta Path can consume Susano'o since it's a chakra construct.



Nagato doesn't have Preta activated at all times. 



> And guess what-_it took all three of their attacks to destroy CT's core._ Bijudama alone wouldn't work. Futon: Rasenshuriken alone wouldn't work. And those attacks, from feats, are loads higher than Itachi's Yasaka Magatama which can't do it alone.



Itachi took time explaining Naruto how to counter it. Now that Itachi is alone and has knowledge he will crush it as soon as it launches in the air.




> You mean a _mind-controlled Nagato_ which has lower reflexes than he does normally, and who STUPIDLY DIDN'T HAVE PRETA PATH UP. Nagato _blitzed Bee_ completely despite being crippled, Itachi couldn't do the same.



Or maybe Nagato just doesn't have Preta Path on all the time, only when he actually sees/senses the threat.







> Shinra Tensei blows Nagato away and Nagato appears behind him.



He can't blitz Bee without using Ninjutsu.That "blitz" is nothing compared to the one Itachi made.



> Which Itachi can't maintain for long. Which Nagato can consume with Preta Path, repel with Deva Path, yank him out with Bansho Ten'in, etc.



Deva Path can't repel Yata Mirror Susano'o.
How is Bansho Ten'in going to yank Itachi through Susano'o? Its a solid construct. If he tries to pull Susano'o itself he will meet his end at the Blade of Totsuka.

If Nagato tries to absorb Susano'o in melee combat with Preta, the same old Totsuka will seal him because it's not made from chakra.



> Nagato defeated all of Konoha via strategy. He defeated Naruto, who needed to be rescued via strategy.



More like with ST spam. I know he is not an idiot, but he is far from Itachi's level in the intelligence department.



> ...and what's stopping Nagato from *sensing* Itachi, activating Preta Path, and consuming Totsuka?



Totsuka is not made from chakra. It's a spiritual blade. 



> The manga _flat out said and shown_ that it took all three of them to win. Itachi couldn't even get close to the mind-controlled Nagato (Kabuto had no idea Nagato was a sensor in the first place) without Naruto and Bee distracting him.



Distracting? The duo got curbstomped in 5 seconds. Itachi was the one who was distracted the most in that fight.



> And you just prove you shouldn't be taken seriously and that you're probably trying to get a rise.



What?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 13, 2013)

Rain said:


> Do tell me then, why the almighty Rinnegan doesn't posses the Mangekyo Sharingan and base sharingan abilities (lesser dojutsu)?
> 
> Rinnegan is a completely independant dojutsu, as can be seen through its abilities.


When used by Madara, he can use the Susano'o. You do know that right? And hell, _Nagato has Madara's eyes_.

The Rinnegan is even said to be the Sharingan's ultimate Evolution.


> Ugh, what defense does Rinnegan provide against taijutsu?


Asura Path Technique.





> Nagato doesn't have Preta activated at all times.


Against Itachi, he would have it.




> Itachi took time explaining Naruto how to counter it. Now that Itachi is alone and has knowledge he will crush it as soon as it launches in the air.


...even though the manga shows _it took fucking all three attacks to cancel out the Chibaku Tensei core._ Itachi's strongest ranged attack, from feats, doesn't even come close to Bijudama and Rasenshuriken anyway. So how can he 'crush' the core alone when Bijudama failed to?





> Or maybe Nagato just doesn't have Preta Path on all the time, only when he actually sees/senses the threat.


Nagato has it on when he needs it. He'll sense Itachi, keep his best defense up, and keep attacking and hammering him since that's his canon fighting style.








> He can't blitz Bee without using Ninjutsu.That "blitz" is nothing compared to the one Itachi made.


You mean the one Bee said he knew about already? Nagato blitzed Bee flat out and he could barely react. Itachi was already known by Bee even before the warning.




> Deva Path can't repel Yata Mirror Susano'o.
> How is Bansho Ten'in going to yank Itachi through Susano'o? Its a solid construct. If he tries to pull Susano'o itself he will meet his end at the Blade of Totsuka.


Tell me, what 'nature' does Yata Mirror change to to repel a gravitational force? Its not a Chakra Nature, so what does the Yata Mirror even do?

If Gaara's sand can yank Madara out of Susano'o. Nagato should be able to yank Itachi out of it with Bansho Ten'in. 


> If Nagato tries to absorb Susano'o in melee combat with Preta, the same old Totsuka will seal him because it's not made from chakra.


Actually, Totsuka is made from chakra. Its how its maintained. And guess what: even if it wasn't, Nagato's shown he can absorb Natural energy. Spiritual Energy, a component of chakra, is no different. It wouldn't make any sense at all for Nagato to be unable to absorb Totsuka




> More like with ST spam. I know he is not an idiot, but he is far from Itachi's level in the intelligence department.


...wrong. Dear god did you even READ the arc? He divided his paths into two teams, found out where Naruto was, and crushed Konoha to keep the secrets secret. Then against Naruto, he completed Deva Path's recharge and defeated him.




> Totsuka is not made from chakra. It's a spiritual blade.


If its not made from chakra, how does Susano'o, a _chakra construct_ form it anyway? How is it maintained? 




> Distracting? The duo got curbstomped in 5 seconds. Itachi was the one who was distracted the most in that fight.


If not for Naruto and Bee? Itachi wouldn't have gotten the openings to attack Nagato's two immobile summons since they weren't actively searching for him like they would be when Nagato was in control. All the Shared Vision was focused on ONE POINT, leaving blindspots.

Itachi wasn't distracted at all. He was waiting for his move since the manga showed he couldn't attack directly.


> What?


Using the smiley, it shows that your arguments shouldn't be taken seriously since Itachi is your favorite character.


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## Negrito (Mar 13, 2013)

Rain said:


> Do tell me then, why the almighty Rinnegan doesn't posses the Mangekyo Sharingan and base sharingan abilities (lesser dojutsu)?
> 
> Rinnegan is a completely independant dojutsu, as can be seen through its abilities.



You mean the Rinnegan that Nagato posses? Madara has been shown to use MS jutsu while still using the Rennegan.

On the genjutsu part the only genjutsu the Rinnegan has been put up against is Mugen: Gamarinshou and that is a sound based genjutsu. Guess what? The Sharingan is ineffective against the same kind of genjutsu.



> Ugh, what defense does Rinnegan provide against taijutsu?



Human Path being able to block an attack from SM Jiraiya. Superior strength as well body modifications due to Demon Path.




> Nagato doesn't have Preta activated at all times.



No, he doesn't. But he has shown to be able to activate it fast.



> Itachi took time explaining Naruto how to counter it. Now that Itachi is alone and has knowledge he will crush it as soon as it launches in the air.



Because Nagato will just stand there and let it be destroyed?




> He can't blitz Bee without using Ninjutsu.That "blitz" is nothing compared to the one Itachi made.



No, it was better as Nagato got to a better position, made Bee resort to V2 and wasn't really pressured by Bee in any way.




> Deva Path can't repel Yata Mirror Susano'o.
> How is Bansho Ten'in going to yank Itachi through Susano'o? Its a solid construct. If he tries to pull Susano'o itself he will meet his end at the Blade of Totsuka.



No basis or proof to the first point. Yata Mirror also doesn't protect all of Susano'o and the rest would be dispelled taking the Mirror with it.

The same way Gaara's sand did? Susano'o being a physical construct sure didn't help at that time.



> If Nagato tries to absorb Susano'o in melee combat with Preta, the same old Totsuka will seal him because it's not made from chakra.



 While Susano'o is being absorbed? The same Preta Path that absorbed all of Bee's V2 chakra in an instant? Even Samehada couldn't do that.




> Distracting? The duo got curbstomped in 5 seconds. Itachi was the one who was distracted the most in that fight.



Itachi did? The same Itachi that disappeared right after getting Shinra Tensei'd and came back to sneak attack Nagato and save Bee and Naruto?

Really? The Manga sure showed different things happening.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 13, 2013)

Nagato is faster than Itachi given the distance he can cover in a short time; Hanzo agrees it is impressive. 
Additionally given he can move swiftly after hitting a foe with Shinra Tensei, react against a relatively fast opponent using Bijuu power and get to the nine tails without him *noticing*, something Itachi couldn't do. The latter feats are impressive as this was done with hampered mobility.

In other words Itachi cannot and will not be able to blitz Nagato as Nagato will be able to adapt to his speed. 

Now Nagato is not restricted. This is enough to say that Nagato wins *easily*.

Amaterasu can be sensed, it is possible Susanoo can be too (though with Susanoo it doesn't matter as when it is out, then it attacks), and there is a common answer to shut them (and all Itachi's Ninjutsu) down. 

Oh let us not forget that if Nagato truly desires it: Itachi will not surprise him. *In other words* Itachi will not be able to land a sneak attack.

This becomes more of a fact when/if you add Pain Rikudou into the picture.

So that leaves Taijutsu. Well Pain *is* evidence of Nagato's Taijutsu skill. Pain's mind was Nagato, so whatever skill Pain displayed was Nagato's; Taijutsu skill from Pain is Taijutsu skill from Nagato. 
Nagato had Taijutsu good enough to not be overwhelmed by Kakashi, Sage Naruto, Sage Jiraiya and most of Konoha. Taijutsu skill, not physical power (Naruto's case).
So like he did with those shinobi, he can adapt to Itachi's Taijutsu. If you add the Asura Path and other Paths like the Human/God/Hell Realms, then close combat isn't Itachi's best option.

Projectiles on a Rinnegan user that is actually focusing on Itachi will not be successful. 

However it doesn't help Itachi because without being able to use projectiles he has to resort to jutsu. However because of the Preta Path he is forced into close combat. That means certain death though. Due to the Human and Preta Paths he literally can _not_ afford to be touched; because of the Hell Realm he cannot afford to be strangled. 
Aside from Demon Realm complicating things, in close combat there is the risk of him being smacked with a Shinra Tensei at any time.

Then there is Gedo Mazo and Chibaku Tensei to consider.
*On top of all that* _- aimed at the Pain pages -_ this is _Nagato_ in the thread. His jutsu output will be *superior* than Pain's and he'll be able to execute the jutsu faster than Pain can.

IC Nagato *always* takes the most efficient route with the knowledge and abilities he has. When he is in control. Note how even at disadvantaged points, or points where he wasn't at full power (which was generally all the time) he still performed efficiently. 
The only exception was Jiraiya, but there was no need for God Realm there because Jiraiya was in no condition to fight without his arm.

So really, I do genuinely find it hard to believe that Nagato _doesn't_ stomp.

Chibaku Tensei will always land. Itachi couldn't destroy it with Amaterasu, it launched too fast. If Itachi tries to focus on Chibaku Tensei he has to not focus on Nagato. That's just asking for a Human Realm soul extraction. 
Totsuka has a shot, but then it becomes a debate of "can Totsuka seal inanimate objects". Though when you find yourself debating that, the debate for Itachi is lost because that hinges on one detail when Nagato still has a huge bag of goodies to use. Bear in mind this guy has basic elemental jutsu and the mainstream jutsu which can be potent with someone who mastered them who has his chakra levels.


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## Rain (Mar 14, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> When used by Madara, he can use the Susano'o. You do know that right? And hell, _Nagato has Madara's eyes_.



Madara is an Uchiha with Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. That's why he can use Susano'o and Rinnegan simultaneously, not because of Rinnegan. 



> The Rinnegan is even said to be the Sharingan's ultimate Evolution.



Irrelevant as it doesn't grant its user the sharingan abilities.



> Asura Path Technique.



So, Susano'o or Perfect Susanoo slashes won't work on Asura Path because it's a Rinnegan jutsu? Because that's what you are saying for Tsukuyomi.



> Against Itachi, he would have it.



He would have it on when he actually sees or senses Itachi, imo. 

Besides, Preta path takes quite some time to absorb high-chakra subjects as seen against Naruto, and that leaves Nagato open for the Totsuka blitz.

Oh and Nagato apparently needs to be close to his target to absorb it and given the Totsuka's range that seems extremly unlikely.



> ...even though the manga shows _it took fucking all three attacks to cancel out the Chibaku Tensei core._ Itachi's strongest ranged attack, from feats, doesn't even come close to Bijudama and Rasenshuriken anyway. So how can he 'crush' the core alone when Bijudama failed to?



Itachi took time observing how CT works and then explaining it to Naruto and Bee. 

With full knowledge he will just destroy the core with Yasaka Magatama or Amaterasu as soon as Nagato lauches it in the air.

Besides, Itachi will probably end the fight before CT or any other massive jutsu comes into play.




> Nagato has it on when he needs it. He'll sense Itachi, keep his best defense up, and keep attacking and hammering him since that's his canon fighting style.



I already addresed this above.



> You mean the one Bee said he knew about already? Nagato blitzed Bee flat out and he could barely react. Itachi was already known by Bee even before the warning.



I don't even understand what are you talking about here.

Nagato using Shinra Tensei and then attacking Bee is not blitzing. Blitz is when a character dispatches his target with his sheer speed.

Accoring to the official translation, Bee was unaware of Itachi.

Why are we even disscussing this? Everyone knows Itachi is faster than Nagato.



> Tell me, what 'nature' does Yata Mirror change to to repel a gravitational force? Its not a Chakra Nature, so what does the Yata Mirror even do?



Susano'o tanks ST with ease. The attack is not that strong, unless used on a massive scale. 
And it's extremly unlikely that Nagato will use CST on just one opponent. He will be sealed before he decides to use it.



> If Gaara's sand can yank Madara out of Susano'o. Nagato should be able to yank Itachi out of it with Bansho Ten'in.



Ugh, Gaara explicitely said that he targeted Susano'o's feet. Bansho Ten'in can't pull Itachi unless used from below (pretty much impossible) 



> Actually, Totsuka is made from chakra. Its how its maintained. And guess what: even if it wasn't, Nagato's shown he can absorb Natural energy. Spiritual Energy, a component of chakra, is no different. It wouldn't make any sense at all for Nagato to be unable to absorb Totsuka



Totsuka is an ethereal (spiritual) sword made from liquid. It has nothing to do with chakra. 



> ...wrong. Dear god did you even READ the arc? He divided his paths into two teams, found out where Naruto was, and crushed Konoha to keep the secrets secret. Then against Naruto, he completed Deva Path's recharge and defeated him.



And that is relevant to this fight how exactly? I know Nagato is not an idiot but Itachi is simply a smarter fighter.





> If its not made from chakra, how does Susano'o, a _chakra construct_ form it anyway? How is it maintained?



Totsuka doesn't have the same shape or colour as the other Susano'o blades, which leads me to believe that it's not connected to Susano'o. Susano'o is just a wielder. The sword is made from magical liquid.



> Using the smiley, it shows that your arguments shouldn't be taken seriously since Itachi is your favorite character.



How is the use of smiley an indication of the posts quality.

Should i not take you seriously in the Naruto threads because he is your favorite character?

Pathetic.


Anyways: 

1. Totsuka works, 
2. Tsukuyomi works,
3. Itachi can counter all of Nagato's jutsu,
4. Itachi is smarter fighter than Nagato.

Itachi wins. 

/thread


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 14, 2013)

Rain said:


> Madara is an Uchiha with Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. That's why he can use Susano'o and Rinnegan simultaneously, not because of Rinnegan.


Here's the thing-_Nagato possesses Madara's eyes._ He should have the same Mangekyo Sharingan abilities stacked on his Rinnegan. And guess what, the Rinnegan is ALWAYS ACTIVE when he's used Susano'o. 

And Preta Path and Shinra Tensei are the counters for Ninjutsu.


> Irrelevant as it doesn't grant its user the sharingan abilities.


Yeah, its not like the Rinnegan helps a user decipher and perform all sorts of Ninjutsu. Yep, not like that at all!




> So, Susano'o or Perfect Susanoo slashes won't work on Asura Path because it's a Rinnegan jutsu? Because that's what you are saying for Tsukuyomi.


...what do two NINJUTSU techniques have to do for the _taijutsu counter?_




> He would have it on when he actually sees or senses Itachi, imo.
> 
> Besides, Preta path takes quite some time to absorb high-chakra subjects as seen against Naruto, and that leaves Nagato open for the Totsuka blitz.
> 
> Oh and Nagato apparently needs to be close to his target to absorb it and given the Totsuka's range that seems extremly unlikely.


1. Nagato should sense Itachi regardless. Kabuto didn't know about it. Sensing is a passive ability, hell Nagato could sense Amaterasu's activation passively too.  
2. The manga proves this point wrong several times.
3. Nagato can absorb both long range and close range techniques. Totsuka doesn't have a 'long range' at all.



> Itachi took time observing how CT works and then explaining it to Naruto and Bee.
> 
> With full knowledge he will just destroy the core with Yasaka Magatama or Amaterasu as soon as Nagato lauches it in the air.
> 
> Besides, Itachi will probably end the fight before CT or any other massive jutsu comes into play.


Itachi only could analyze that due to Naruto's own knowledge. Not only that, the core goes so far into the sky Amaterasu can't reach it due to its short range. And Yasaka Magatama _is not fucking strong enough to do it alone!_

And no, Itachi can't do that. It took ALL THREE OF THEM TO DEFEAT NAGATO in canon. So stop wanking off to him!



> I already addresed this above.


So you ignore Nagato's canon fighting style?




> I don't even understand what are you talking about here.
> 
> Nagato using Shinra Tensei and then attacking Bee is not blitzing. Blitz is when a character dispatches his target with his sheer speed.
> 
> ...


 Nagato uses a Shinra Tensei to launch Bee away. Then he magically appears behind Bee. That's a blitz. And 'official translation', you mean the translations that get things wrong time and time and time again? The manga shows Bee already knew Itachi was behind him.

And no, Itachi isn't faster than a Rikudo. Not even close, especially with his feats.


> Susano'o tanks ST with ease. The attack is not that strong, unless used on a massive scale.
> And it's extremly unlikely that Nagato will use CST on just one opponent. He will be sealed before he decides to use it.


...Shinra Tensei isn't that strong? Are you fucking serious? It sent three hundred meter toads which weighed thousands of tons into next week! It dispelled Amaterasu! Susano'o is a ninjutsu, Shinra Tensei has anti-ninjutsu properties! 

And if Nagato sees its necessary, he'll do it.


> Ugh, Gaara explicitely said that he targeted Susano'o's feet. Bansho Ten'in can't pull Itachi unless used from below (pretty much impossible)


...did you even LOOK at the scan? Madara was yanked out from ABOVE, going through Susano'o itself. Bansho Ten'in can independently target Itachi and yank him out of his Susano'o and he can't do a thing about it.




> Totsuka is an ethereal (spiritual) sword made from liquid. It has nothing to do with chakra.


 Other than the fact it has a Fuinjutsu in it, which requires chakra. And it'd require chakra to even form on a fucking Chakra Construct. 

Oh, know what else was designated as 'spiritual'? Tayuya's Ogres with their chakra eating tongues. Yet they still are classified as ninjutsu which requires chakra. Totsuka isn't ANY different.


> And that is relevant to this fight how exactly? I know Nagato is not an idiot but Itachi is simply a smarter fighter.


You mean Itachi getting Deus Ex Machina every week means he's smarter? Oh, and Kakashi outsmarted Itachi but couldn't outsmart Nagato. 

Nagato's shown that in battle, he uses his abilities and intelligence far better since the author doesn't have to fall back on creating a technique out of no where for Itachi to use.




> Totsuka doesn't have the same shape or colour as the other Susano'o blades, which leads me to believe that it's not connected to Susano'o. Susano'o is just a wielder. The sword is made from magical liquid.


It has to form with Susano'o. And how do you know it doesn't have the same color? 


Shaded the exact same way as Susano'o itself. And it has a Fuinjutsu, which requires chakra.


> How is the use of smiley an indication of the posts quality.
> 
> Should i not take you seriously in the Naruto threads because he is your favorite character?
> 
> ...


And you realize you're in the minority here, you're ignoring how the manga portrayed both Itachi and Nagato, etc.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 14, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> in any case i stopped reading right at the bolded.



Aaaaaand we're done. I did read your post and saw nothing that devalued my original stance. What you claimed had very little evidence (or none at all) to support it. So it still stands. As I told Nikushimi: there has been no Itachi speed feat to top the cited speed feats.


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## Dr. White (Mar 14, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Aaaaaand we're done. I did read your post and saw nothing that devalued my original stance. What you claimed had very little evidence (or none at all) to support it. So it still stands. As I told Nikushimi: there has been no Itachi speed feat to top the cited speed feats.



You mean the two feats Nagato has in which one time he was airlifted by a chameleon behind Bee(after using ST to disorient), and the other time when he shunshined forward and jumped up a mountain, not blitzing anyone?

You should stop this now, it's making you look really ill informed.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 14, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> You mean the two feats Nagato has in which one time he was airlifted by a chameleon behind Bee(after using ST to disorient), and the other time when he shunshined forward and jumped up a mountain, not blitzing anyone?
> 
> You should stop this now, it's making you look really ill informed.



What?

You've yet to prove that this chameleon lifted Nagato there. Furthermore why it was no-where when Nagato got a Lariat. 

Shunshun is one argument, though you're making it sound like he could do Raikage-like Shunshun given Hanzo the icon said that it wasn't a small feat. 
You can say not blitzing anyone, but Konan was his first priority.


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## blk (Mar 14, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Preta Path and Shinra Tensei are the counters for Ninjutsu.



I hope you are not suggesting that Shinra Tensei can make Susano'o disappear.

Also, Preta Path can't absorb the Totsuka, because it is a "spiritual weapon" (or whatever Zetsu called it), which is not part of Susano'o and is not a Ninjutsu.



> And no, Itachi isn't faster than a Rikudo. Not even close, especially with his feats.



Being a "Rikudo" has absolutely no relations to the speed of the individual.

Moreover, why are you arguing that Nagato (healthy) is faster than Itachi? Because either way, the difference in speed is going to be insignificant.

Nagato wins this fight with mid-high difficulty at most, but let's not spread falsities.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 14, 2013)

blk said:


> speed is going to be insignificant.



Hence I am gobsmacked that one _minute_ aspect has been highlighted over all things. 

----

Remember I explicitly said Nagato's superior speed means he'll *adapt *to Itachi's speed. Not blitz Itachi.


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## Dr. White (Mar 14, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What?
> 
> You've yet to prove that this chameleon lifted Nagato there. Furthermore why it was no-where when Nagato got a Lariat.
> 
> ...



We see Nagato in the mouth of the flying Chameleon on top of the canopy of the forest. He uses Shinra Tensei to push things forward, then we see him fall from the sky next to Bee.

So we can deduce either.
A.) the Chameleon Nagato sitting in, flew him to Bee's position and dropped him off there(as why the fuck would Nagato fight on the floor from inside the Chameleon) 
or
B.) Nagato somehow leaped from the Chameleon''s mouth fast enough to get behind Bee and cover the distance faster than the force created by ST, then as he descended from the sky he fell right behind Bee, all this happening in a few seconds...

It takes 5th grade reading comprehension to understand the scene dude. Since I don't believe that you have a fifth grade reading level, I'll chalk it up to Fan bias.

-Nagato's feat wasn't even impressive speed wise. He blocked some Kunai at Hanzo's surprise, then we clearly see Nagato shunshin towards the mountain and jump up to where Konan was, in which Hanzo already had time to spot him and use an attack. How exactly is that speed feat overly impressive? Any Elite jounin could have pulled off that feat(minus the St of course)

Itachi has twice, canoncially been fast enough to shunshin behind people he *was just in front of.* first he did it to Kurenai, right after kicking her, and the second time occured with someone on the level of Killer Bee.
Do you realize how fast you have to be to move behind someone without them picking up on you visually? Most people can atleast tail 100mph baseball's with their eyes, Itachi was able traverse distance gaps twice without Bee reconginzing(the first time only KCM Naruto reacted).

Nagato is absolutely nothing special in the physical department his combat prowess stems directly from his hax eyes, and decent intelligence.


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## LostSelf (Mar 14, 2013)

Rain said:


> He would have it on when he actually sees or senses Itachi, imo.



This is something he will be doing always.



> Besides, Preta path takes quite some time to absorb high-chakra subjects as seen against Naruto, and that leaves Nagato open for the Totsuka blitz.



This is healthy Itachi, not edo as to spam jutsus like if there's no tomorrow. Something Nagato can capitalize and make Itachi waste his chakra. Also, Itachi's jutsus are not high chakra subjects aside of Susano'o. Considering how KB easily absorbed his katon and Amaterasu is something that would not be very wise to use here.

Also, no. Preta path absorbs fast.



> Oh and Nagato apparently needs to be close to his target to absorb it and given the Totsuka's range that seems extremly unlikely.



You mean Susano'o? He doesn't need to absorb it when he can outlast it. Or he can absorb it before it fully materializes.



> Itachi took time observing how CT works and then explaining it to Naruto and Bee.



That doesn't mean he can destroy it alone. Fact is that Itachi needed Naruto and Bee to survive Nagato.



> With full knowledge he will just destroy the core with Yasaka Magatama or Amaterasu as soon as Nagato lauches it in the air.



CT's core tanked a KN6 bijudama. Something with much more destructive power than Itachi's featless Magatama. Itachi's magatama is doing nothing to CT. Amaterasu either, unless Itachi wants to be scorched by his own fire, or wants to be attacked by Nagato while he is aiming to the core.



> Besides, Itachi will probably end the fight before CT or any other massive jutsu comes into play.




How?



> Nagato using Shinra Tensei and then attacking Bee is not blitzing. Blitz is when a character dispatches his target with his sheer speed.



Blitzing or not, this doesn't deny the speed he displayed while cripple. And if using a jutsu to blitz is not a blitz, what Itachi had with Nagato was a bunshin that dispelled while the real Itachi was already in the air and near Killer Bee.

We have to note that Nagato followed Itachi's shunshin better than anyone there as well.



> Accoring to the official translation, Bee was unaware of Itachi.
> 
> Why are we even disscussing this? Everyone knows Itachi is faster than Nagato.


If we follow his movement speed against Bee, plus being cripple. Is hard to say if Itachi would be faster than a full mobile Nagato. A





> Susano'o tanks ST with ease. The attack is not that strong, unless used on a massive scale.
> And it's extremly unlikely that Nagato will use CST on just one opponent. He will be sealed before he decides to use it.


Not that massive and it depends what version of Susano'o. Sadly here, Itachi can get one shotted before he could know about it since ST can't be predicted.



> Ugh, Gaara explicitely said that he targeted Susano'o's feet. Bansho Ten'in can't pull Itachi unless used from below (pretty much impossible)



Below was the only way he could grab Madara, since Susano'o was covering all his body. Gaara can't pull Madara unless using his sand from below, that doesn't mean Nagato can't do it with another way, since he needs nothing to get a hold on Itachi and yank him off Susano'o.




> And that is relevant to this fight how exactly? I know Nagato is not an idiot but Itachi is simply a smarter fighter.




That helps, but Nagato is far from an idiot as to make this a big difference.




> 1. Totsuka works,



If it lands.



> 2. Tsukuyomi works,



If it lands.



> 3. Itachi can counter all of Nagato's jutsu,



Please elaborate.



> 4. Itachi is smarter fighter than Nagato.



Not enough to make a difference.



> Itachi wins.



Even Itachi fans are saying Nagato wins here. It seems there's not much to say anymore.



> /thread



God > King .


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 14, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> We see Nagato in the mouth of the flying Chameleon on top of the canopy of the forest. He uses Shinra Tensei to push things forward, then we see him fall from the sky next to Bee.
> 
> So we can deduce either.
> A.) the Chameleon Nagato sitting in, flew him to Bee's position and dropped him off there(as why the fuck would Nagato fight on the floor from inside the Chameleon)
> ...



I'm still waiting to see where that chameleon was when he got to Bee seeing as it was apparently what transported Nagato there. 

You're slotting stuff that isn't there. Nagato managed to get behind Bee _and_ react to him whilst getting to Naruto swiftly. I'm not sure what you class as impressive if that isn't. 

If you read my post, you'll notice I said Nagato has blitzed actual high tier opponents. Something Itachi hasn't done; every high tier has been able to anticipate him. Furthermore Kakashi level speed/perception is sufficient enough to keep up with Itachi from what your evidence showed. 

Itachi did manage to dodge Bee, sure. However Nagato was beneath Bee and dodged him *while emaciated and crippled*. That is more impressive. 

However this is the second time you've avoided actually providing evidence that the chameleon took Nagato to Bee's location. At the same time ignoring what happened with Bee.

Hanzo complimented the speed. That distance was also something I've never seen someone like Itachi ever cover in a short time. We can say a lot of Itach's speed feats can be accomplished by generic elites too, especially when his movement speed feats was never complimented. 
Nagato's feat on the other hand was complimented by a shinobi icon, so it isn't something a generic elite could replicate.

But yet us not forget what led us to this point: you're not proving *any* evidence - not even tiny bit - to show that the chameleon doubtlessly transported Nagato to Bee's location.
I don't want an essay, just simple evidence to show that your point has some basis.


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## joshhookway (Mar 14, 2013)

Nagato can dodge that.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Mar 14, 2013)

Kotoamatsukami, gg


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## Dr. White (Mar 14, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm still waiting to see where that chameleon was when he got to Bee seeing as it was apparently what transported Nagato there.
> 
> You're slotting stuff that isn't there. Nagato managed to get behind Bee _and_ react to him whilst getting to Naruto swiftly. I'm not sure what you class as impressive if that isn't.
> 
> ...



Idk not with him? Why would Nagato blitz someone who is on the floor from the inside of a chameleon's mouth? He used it to get to Bee's position after the ST, in which it dropped him off so Nagato could subdue him. 

I'm not gonna sit here and teach you how to read dude, if you can't comprehend simple panel action than that is your fault. From what we know:
-Nagato was so crippled that he could not even walk, hence Itachi carrying him. Itachi was the one who blitzed Naruto and Bee from the onset, and Nagato straight up admitted he couldn't move *without summons*

After Itachi soloed Nagato, he came back inside of his chameoleon and used ST to disorient. Then he appears literally hundreds of yards away seemingly appearing from the sky. Anyone with reading comprehension can deduce that Nagato flew in the chameleon(from the top of the canopy which we saw him last inside it's mouth) and was dropped from the air to Bee's position which he found due to sensing. 

Literally no one in this manga barring KCM Naruto, Minato via hirashin, and Ei(V2) would be able to accomplish that feat, and I highly doubt they could even. Nagato would have had to left his position in the chameleon via shunshined and not only propelled him self far enough to reach Bee(look how far the blast sends him)  and land behind him before Bee reached him. All this is fucking impossible considering his condition(this was prior to gaining chakra), what Kishi blatently displayed about his mobility, and considering only a choice few ninja would be able to pull of such a speed feat. You are the one who is making shit up.

His hanzo feat was not impressive speed wise. It was impressive since he managed to avoid being slaughtered by hundreds of ninja and Hanzo himself. Itachi's feats of moving so fast Bee could not visually keep up twice is much better. 

Conclusion: Stop the wanking on irrelevant things  ,  Also it seems like you are not new to Itachi de-hyping so, pending on your response we may just have to agree to disgaree.


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## Jagger (Mar 14, 2013)

These kind of fights should never be done...it's like Starrk vs Ulquiorra or Goku vs Superman...


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## Shichibukai (Mar 14, 2013)

Jagger said:


> These kind of fights should never be done...it's like Starrk vs Ulquiorra or *Goku vs Superman*...



tf? In what kind of aspect?


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## Fear (Mar 15, 2013)

Shichibukai said:


> tf? In what kind of aspect?



In the aspects that they're never ending cause they're likely to be never shown.


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## Seon (Mar 15, 2013)

Why can't we just acknowledge the power of those characters? Why do people feel like their fave character is in danger when coming up giant Itachi threads?


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## eyeknockout (Mar 15, 2013)

tie, itachi seals nagato in totsuka while nagato uses CT to crush itachi


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## LostSelf (Mar 15, 2013)

Seon said:


> Why can't we just acknowledge the power of those characters? Why do people feel like their fave character is in danger when coming up giant Itachi threads?



Ahm... no. It's the opposite really. Itachi is the one compared when a character appears to be stronger. Wich Nagato is.

And the arguments mostly were that Itachi killed him twice hitting a distracted Nagato or a Nagato that never thought Itachi would've turned against him. Basically, even Konohamaru would've done that, especially if he brokes free from ET and Nagato (Kabuto) doesn't know about it.

But well, keep debating .


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 15, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Idk not with him?



The rest of your post just used selective canon and looked at things in a different context to how it was originally. For example if Kishi had a high tier ninja compliment Nagato's feat and did no such thing for Itachi then accept it. In the author's eyes Nagato's speed was better.

Its canon. Furthermore it is hard to take anything you say seriously when you believe contesting unsupported Itachi hype with supported Nagato statements and feats is "Itachi dehype". 

I'm going to ask one last time, show me evidence that the chameleon took Nagato to Bee. 
You've already been disproved with the other points while failing to provide evidence that Itachi's movement speed is superior to Nagato's. Repeating the points over and over won't make you right unless I see you've supported your points with actual evidence that is correctly interpreted eg the Nagato summon comment is very weak when you fail to acknowledge the feats thereafter. Admitting you don't know where the chameleon disappeared will not suffice when you fail to acknowledge avoiding V2 Bee.

Notice I said "correctly interpreted"; Nagato was right as a cripple he couldn't move on his own. He never said he was totally stationary. He lacked efficient mobility eg why he walked so slowly while using Human Realm. Itachi didn't lift him up, he helped Nagato move.

Back to what I want, for the *final* time: show me that without a doubt that Nagato used the chameleon to get to Killer Bee.


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## Dr. White (Mar 15, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> > snip
> 
> 
> We're done here
> ...


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## Complete_Ownage (Mar 15, 2013)

Nagato will always be stronger/superior to Itachi

I mean cmon kishi can't beat you anymore with sense then whats in the manga
Introduction: Nagato > Itachi
Hype: Nagato > Itachi
Evolution Rinnegan > MS
Two Jins + Itachi just to beat immobile kabuto controlled Nagato
Display of power: Nagato > Itachi


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## Shichibukai (Mar 15, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Nagato will always be stronger/superior to Itachi
> 
> I mean cmon kishi can't beat you anymore with sense then whats in the manga
> Introduction: Nagato > Itachi
> ...



Nagato may seem like he has more hype because he bears the Rinnegan, but the sheer amount of Itachi's hype definitely outclasses Nagato's.

Not that it really matters, though.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 15, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Manga canon: Itachi is faster than Nagato.
> Conclusion: Deal with it



You really just repeated everything you said *without* providing evidence that Nagato used the chameleon whilst misinterpreting what you posted once more.
All I've seen you is your attempt to slot in things not there (the chameleon moving Nagato to Bee) and then ignoring evidence (Nagato reacting to Bee and moving to Naruto). This isn't a promising case if you're hoping to say Nagato was completely stationary.

Furthermore you've not even provided the evidence to say Itachi is faster. All you've done is tried to say Nagato's canonically impressive feat (noted by an icon like Hanzo) wasn't impressive compared to Itachi's movement speed which has *never* been acknowledged in the manga.
Even Sasuke's movement speed is faster than Itachi given he actually blitzed him in a cave. 

Sure it means Itachi has to keep his guard up, but he won't be able to blitz Nagato.

So it still stands, I'll still stay (with evidence) Nagato's speed bursts as a cripple were greater than any speed feat Itachi's shown. This has implications for his prime.

Now this can only change when I see the same evidence I've asked for in two threads now.


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## Shichibukai (Mar 15, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You really just repeated everything you said *without* providing evidence that Nagato used the chameleon whilst misinterpreting what you posted once more.
> All I've seen you is your attempt to slot in things not there (the chameleon moving Nagato to Bee) and then ignoring evidence (Nagato reacting to Bee and moving to Naruto). This isn't a promising case if you're hoping to say Nagato was completely stationary.
> 
> So it still stands, I'll still stay (with evidence) Nagato's speed bursts as a cripple were greater than any speed feat Itachi's shown. This has implications for his prime.
> ...



He just posted scans that you blatantly ignored. B even himself says he's too slow.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 15, 2013)

Shichibukai said:


> He just posted scans that you blatantly ignored. B even himself says he's too slow.



He posted scans while ignoring all the scans (notable examples being how Nagato reacted to a V2 Bee and went towards Naruto) I posted in the initial post. 
Bee said it said it was good he kept his cool. This doesn't change that he still has failed to prove that the chameleon transported Nagato to Bee.

Nagato said he needs help moving (he never said he's totally stationary), but the manga has shown he is capable of bursts of speed. The latter is blatantly being ignored.


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## Shichibukai (Mar 15, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He posted scans while ignoring all the scans (notable examples being how Nagato reacted to a V2 Bee and went towards Naruto) I posted in the initial post.
> Bee said it said it was good he kept his cool. This doesn't change that he still has failed to prove that the chameleon transported Nagato to Bee.



Yeah, good he kept his cool because he would have died, not because he was overwhelmed by speed. I think you're stretching that a little too much.

It's pretty evident in the scan he posted that the chameleon was his main form of transportation at that time. I'm not sure how you don't see that. Even if you don't, nothing indicates that he moved on his own either, so the best you're going to get out of that is that neither points are provable.

The simple fact is in the first panel you see Nagato he's in the chameleon's mouth and the next he's up in B's face. Almost everything points to him have traveled via the chameleon, but I'm willing agree to disagree because it's not a solid feat.

Besides, in terms of the amount of speed feats and the quality of those feats, Itachi>Nagato.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 15, 2013)

Shichibukai said:


> Yeah, good he kept his cool because he would have died, not because he was overwhelmed by speed. I think you're stretching that a little too much.
> 
> It's pretty evident in the scan he posted that the chameleon was his main form of transportation at that time. I'm not sure how you don't see that. Even if you don't, nothing indicates that he moved on his own either, so the best you're going to get out of that is that neither points are provable.
> 
> ...



I would be overstretching it if I said he speed blitzed Bee. But did I ever say he did?  
I said he had the speed to get there, not blitz, but to get there in the time he did.

If it was pretty evident then there's no need to dodge the request every time I ask to show evidence that the chameleon transported him there. Why was it noticeably so far away if he depended on it to move? Then there is reacting to Bee and moving towards Naruto while his (what is being argued as) his only means of movement was holding Naruto.

Everything doesn't point to the chameleon transporting Nagato to that location because of the feats I cited a number of times now which have not been noted by the other side*. 

*Reacting to Bee and going towards Naruto.

In terms of speed feats and quality, as I said in the post that started this debate Nagato wins. Simply because his cripple feats were impressive (against high tiers like Bee and Naruto), his prime feats were so impressive that an icon like Hanzo complimented them. Now nothing like this was provided for Itachi; I don't count Kurenai and Asuma as comparable to the Jinchuriki. Kakashi was able to match Itachi's speed too (aside from seals).

I'm not saying Nagato will blitz Itachi like Sasuke did in the cave. I said he would be able to adapt to Itachi's speed. In turn complimenting my initial point about being able to keep tabs on Itachi.


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## Shichibukai (Mar 15, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I would be overstretching it if I said he speed blitzed Bee. But did I ever say he did?
> I said he had the speed to get there, not blitz, but to get there in the time he did.


That's how it was worded before you edited your post...

And if he can't blitz B then you're kind of contradicting yourself, because Itachi caught B off-guard and ended up behind him with B having to take some time to realize it. And B stating he knows that Itachi is behind him isn't a good enough an excuse because regardless of that fact he let Itachi get that close to him.



> If it was pretty evident then there's no need to dodge the request every time I ask to show evidence that the chameleon transported him there. Why was it noticeably so far away if he depended on it to move? Then there is reacting to Bee and moving towards Naruto while his (what is being argued as) his only means of movement was holding Naruto.



I'm not dodging anything, I'm just not going to pointlessly reiterate a point that White has already made and proven with scans. There is no reason to believe or even calculate that speed feat even if he did do it with his own movement speed because it never shows the distance that he travels nor if it's even him that moved him that distance.

Regardless, I think you're arguing the wrong point because speed isn't going to win Nagato this fight.



> Everything doesn't point to the chameleon transporting Nagato to that location because of the feats I cited a number of times now which have not been noted by the other side*.



Now you're just being stubborn. It shows him in the chameleon and in the next panel he's somewhere else. It's pretty evident of how he got there.

You like to repeat yourself, don't you?



> In terms of speed feats and quality, as I said in the post that started this debate Nagato wins. Simply because his cripple feats were impressive (against high tiers like Bee and Naruto), his prime feats were so impressive that an icon like Hanzo complimented them. Now nothing like this was provided for Itachi; I don't count Kurenai and Asuma as comparable to the Jinchuriki. Kakashi was able to match Itachi's speed too (aside from seals).



You mean the feat where Nagato was severely burned on his legs? Real impressive feat.

And I'm not sure how you're going to use a part 1 fight where Itachi hardly ever moved and relied heavily on genjutsu. Besides, his goal wasn't to take on the entire leaf village, like he states. It was to capture Naruto.



> I'm not saying Nagato will blitz Itachi like Sasuke did in the cave. I said he would be able to adapt to Itachi's speed. In turn complimenting my initial point about being able to keep tabs on Itachi.



Please don't tell me you're using that feat where Sasuke blitzed a clone seriously.

If he's not going to be able to blitz Itachi, then what's your point in arguing Nagato's so called impressive speed feats? It's been shown that Rinnegan users hardly ever move because of their overwhelming visual prowess. Nagato is definitely not known for his speed.


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## Dr. White (Mar 15, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I would be overstretching it if I said he speed blitzed Bee. But did I ever say he did?
> I said he had the speed to get there, not blitz, but to get there in the time he did.
> 
> If it was pretty evident then there's no need to dodge the request every time I ask to show evidence that the chameleon transported him there. Why was it noticeably so far away if he depended on it to move? Then there is reacting to Bee and moving towards Naruto while his (what is being argued as) his only means of movement was holding Naruto.
> ...



Oh my god this is the biggest example of a circular argument it is unbearable.

First off I am not claiming Nagato is completely immobile, in his crippled form he can just barely hold himself up and cannot take to many steps consecutively, or make overly large movements, this was evidenced(besides in the fact he couldn't walk) in the act that only Itachi was able to engage Bee and KCM naruto(bee didn't even notice btw) in CqC, while Nagato had to fight by using Bansho to bring Naruto to him, and stayed put the whole time further stating he was immobile.  

No Nagato did not have the speed to get their, your whole first premise rest on the idea that nagato travelled via shunshin to behind Bee, which he did not. He was airlifted via chameleon I am not arguing the blatent manga portrayal. 

Your second premise relies on us not seeing the chameleon dropping Nagato off. But you don't get off easy: like I said we are both making claims right now, and each has a burden of proof. For my evidence to be correct, we must assume for some reason Nagato needed the chameleon to airlift him behind Bee(we can clearly see him dropping down from the sky) and that he had access to the chameleon. Evidence for this is that Nagato was in the mouth of his flying Chameleon, before the large move Nagato made. We assume this because Nagato was not mobile, and actively resting in the *mouths of his summons the whole fight.* before gaining chakra.

For your burden of proof to be satisfied you must make an a priori argument that can convince one that *Nagato traveled diagnolly from his summons mouth over hundreds of yards in time to beat the force of his ST(he also must have went around the path seeing as since he beat the blast there is no way he could have gone linear.) and appear behind Bee using his body which was completely useless in terms of physical skill.*

That is why I don't need scans to show you, because the simple fact is Kishi is expecting his readers(which I mind you range from 12 up) to be able to comprehend context. 

You seem to be majorly confused and continue to make the same *equivocation fallacy*.Reactions do not equal physical speed buddy, for example *Minato was able to react to V2 Ei, but just because of that he doesn't gain the feats of moving that fast speed wise(base).* He needed Hirashin to overcome the other half of the battle(first is reacting, then is dodging) You sight *proof* of Nagato's outstanding crippled physique in that he *"reacted to Bee"*(also falling back on the false premise that he shunshine'd behind him as previously explained), he did not react to Bee. He simply jumped back most likely due to him sensing Bee's build up of chakra(when Bee went V2) and *still got hit with the lariat*. If he was fast enough to cover the distance from the chameleon ontop of the canopy to *behind Bee faster than Shinra Tensei could push* then why the fuck couldn't he move out of the way from his lariat? When you add up all the actual evidence my argument heavily outweighs yours.

Your third premise relies on the idea that somehow crippled Nagato's phyiscal feats were impressive. While white haired his literal only feat of moving is hopping back slighlty only to be hit with lariat. Once he gained Chakra he was able to make slight motion(still nothing compared even the average jounin speed/mobility), the things that allowed him to overcome Naruto and Bee were his paths. His reactions, and surprise path hands overcame Naruto and grabbed him, then with double vision he scoped Bee out, and used more mystical hands to set up his defeat. Hence why when Itachi took away the double vision he was able to blitz with Susano. Edo's Nagato's best speed feats are hopping a couple feat. His reaction feats however are very impressive.

Finally Itachi's feats are simply greater. No one is saying that because Nagato is canonically <<<< Itachi in speed that he will get blitzed, however there is a distinct mobility factor that Nagato faces in this match. Still you refuse to recongnize that Nagato can react to fast movements, but he cannot move his body fast like regular shinobi.(due to summoning Gedo, an using Paths for years.) 

Nagato's feat of grabbing Konan was not that impressive. Once again he shunshined toward the mountain and jumped up in time to grab Konan, Hanzo already planned for this and thought he had him dead(for hanzo to get the tags on him meant he reacted to Nagato's position), IIRC Hanzo complimented Nagato's ability to stand up to his whole squadron, and survive a blast of his own. He wasn't saying "OMGZ Nagato that was like to fast man, I( a ninja with absolutely no speed feats minus beating young mifune)couldn't even keep up!" look at the overall context.

None of this matters because Prime Nagato only canonically had mobility on panel for like 20 seconds before strapping up to Gedo and using paths which wasted away at his body. Edo Nagato is in the same boat, as at best once he gains Chakra he can hobble around 

Seriously though after this I'm done man


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 15, 2013)

Dr White, our argument cannot go any further until you can actually prove Nagato used the chameleon to get to Bee. 



Shichibukai said:


> That's how it was worded before you edited your post...
> 
> And if he can't blitz B then you're kind of contradicting yourself, because Itachi caught B off-guard and ended up behind him with B having to take some time to realize it. And B stating he knows that Itachi is behind him isn't a good enough an excuse because regardless of that fact he let Itachi get that close to him.



What did I say, I can check the edit to see if it matches. We can't conclude if Bee was caught off guard as Bee had no surprise. I don't doubt Itachi is fast, but I'm saying he's shown nothing compared to covering the distance a cripple Nagato did which caused Bee to actually feel the need to suggest that he'd be gone if he didn't keep his cool.

Lets consider the reactions: he didn't feel the need to tap into his Bijuu's power to get to Itachi, yet for Nagato who would seem slower by what you're saying?

In Bee's eyes Nagato's was a bit more threatening. It really isn't contradicting the point for a number of reasons:
- Itachi didn't travel a huge distance like Nagato
- You realise we're comparing him to a cripple; this still has drastic implications for him not being a cripple. A stipulation allowed in this thread.



> I'm not dodging anything, I'm just not going to pointlessly reiterate a point that White has already made and proven with scans. There is no reason to believe or even calculate that speed feat even if he did do it with his own movement speed because it never shows the distance that he travels nor if it's even him that moved him that distance.
> 
> Regardless, I think you're arguing the wrong point because speed isn't going to win Nagato this fight.



White did what I said was flawed in his arguments, selective canon which doesn't consider other aspects. Like where did the chameleon disappear and what about reacting to Bee and getting to Naruto if he's totally stationary? 

I challenge you to find in this thread where I said speed would win Nagato the battle. Speed was a small part of my argument, however for some reason some posters felt the need to pick on that point. Hence we're arguing that one point and none of the other points.



> Now you're just being stubborn. It shows him in the chameleon and in the next panel he's somewhere else. It's pretty evident of how he got there.
> 
> You like to repeat yourself, don't you?



I wouldn't have to repeat myself if my opposition claims Nagato had help to move every step of the way *without even so much as touching the parts where that wasn't the case*. So it isn't really right to say my argument ignores scans when I've actually commented on the evidence posted against me whereas the opposition has not.

If it was pretty evident, then it would be very easy to prove. However I'm not being shown evidence, I'm being told it is evident. Then the evidence of the chameleon not being Nagato's walker gets ignored... You can kind of see why it is a little hard to believe that the chameleon argument is strong.



> You mean the feat where Nagato was severely burned on his legs? Real impressive feat.
> 
> And I'm not sure how you're going to use a part 1 fight where Itachi hardly ever moved and relied heavily on genjutsu. Besides, his goal wasn't to take on the entire leaf village, like he states. It was to capture Naruto.



Going by Hanzo, most other shinobi would've been burned outright. However looking at the distance he could cover _and_ just escape with burned legs (with Konan perfectly safe). That is impressive and Kishimoto, through Hanzo stated it. 

His goal is irrelevant. The fact is he has never had his speed complimented by high tiers and he has never actually displayed impressive speed against high tiers. In a state where he is physically disadvantaged to top it all off.



> Please don't tell me you're using that feat where Sasuke blitzed a clone seriously.
> 
> If he's not going to be able to blitz Itachi, then what's your point in arguing Nagato's so called impressive speed feats? It's been shown that Rinnegan users hardly ever move because of their overwhelming visual prowess. Nagato is definitely not known for his speed.



We both seem to have different ideas of what I was going for with that Sasuke feat. What do you think I used it to say? I used it to say it means that Itachi just can't let his guard down carelessly, like he did with Sasuke. 
Unless you think Itachi would let his guard down against Nagato (unlikely), then it isn't worth dwelling on that point.

Furthermore I'm still trying to fathom where on earth I said he would blitz Itachi. 

Nagato wasn't known for his speed. However it was complimented by a high tier and the feats (the distance he could cover) was impressive. Especially as an Edo Tensei where he moved pretty fast over a large distance (to get to Bee) and decently fast (to get to Naruto) while in a disadvantaged state.


We're only arguing about speed because that is the only thing highlighted in the argument. I don't think speed will play a huge role. However apparently my opposition do, at least that is why I assume that small part of  is the only point being debated.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 15, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Dr White, our argument cannot go any further until you can actually prove Nagato used the chameleon to get to Bee.



Nagato had mobility ?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 15, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nagato had mobility ?



Limited mobility according to Kabuto who said Nagato's not mobile enough.

Turns out when you claimed it a while back, you were right. When I contested your point about Nagato moving on his own (moving/reacting to Bee and moving to Naruto), I was wrong.


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## Rain (Mar 16, 2013)

@TheIronMan;You seem like a brighter person. I will continue from you.



TheIronMan said:


> This is something he will be doing always.



Okay, i don't think it will matter.



> This is healthy Itachi, not edo as to spam jutsus like if there's no tomorrow. Something Nagato can capitalize and make Itachi waste his chakra. Also, Itachi's jutsus are not high chakra subjects aside of Susano'o. Considering how KB easily absorbed his katon and Amaterasu is something that would not be very wise to use here.



I don't think Itachi will use much jutsu in this fight. Susano'o, Kage Bunshin and Tsukuyomi are enough for a decisive victory. Itachi knows about Preta Path and Shinra Tensei, so he won't even try with Amaterasu.



> You mean Susano'o? He doesn't need to absorb it when he can outlast it. Or he can absorb it before it fully materializes.



Seeing how Nagato is much slower than Itachi, and Totsuka has exceptional range and slash radius, i find it extremly unlikely that Nagato will outlast it.

Itachi can materialize Final Susano'o really fast.





> That doesn't mean he can destroy it alone. Fact is that Itachi needed Naruto and Bee to survive Nagato.



It seems extremly unlikely that Itachi's jutsu (Totsuka, Yasaka Magatama) can't destroy that small black sphere as soon as Nagato launches it.





> CT's core tanked a KN6 bijudama. Something with much more destructive power than Itachi's featless Magatama. Itachi's magatama is doing nothing to CT. Amaterasu either, unless Itachi wants to be scorched by his own fire, or wants to be attacked by Nagato while he is aiming to the core.



CT was already quite big when KN6 attacked.






> How?



Totsuka and Tsukuyomi.





> Blitzing or not, this doesn't deny the speed he displayed while cripple. And if using a jutsu to blitz is not a blitz, what Itachi had with Nagato was a bunshin that dispelled while the real Itachi was already in the air and near Killer Bee.



The difference is; in Nagato's situation, Shinra Tensei controlled Bee's movements while in Itachi's Bee was caught offguard while in control of his body.



> If we follow his movement speed against Bee, plus being cripple. Is hard to say if Itachi would be faster than a full mobile Nagato.



Itachi would still be faster.



> Not that massive and it depends what version of Susano'o. Sadly here, Itachi can get one shotted before he could know about it since ST can't be predicted.



Yes, but Itachi knows ST is Nagato's main jutsu, so he will enter Susano'o immediately.



> Below was the only way he could grab Madara, since Susano'o was covering all his body. Gaara can't pull Madara unless using his sand from below, that doesn't mean Nagato can't do it with another way, since he needs nothing to get a hold on Itachi and yank him off Susano'o.



Susano'o is solid, Bansho Ten'in can't pull Itachi from it. Itachi will just hit Susano'o's armor.



> That helps, but Nagato is far from an idiot as to make this a big difference.



Danzo is far from an idiot too, yet he lost his fight against Sasuke mostly because of intelligence.



> If it lands.



Superior speed combined with exceptional range of the attack almost guarantee it will land.



> If it lands.



Seeing how Nagato's eyes are always open and he has no knowledge on Tsukuyomi, it is guaranteed it will land eventually.



> Please elaborate.



1. CT - Itachi destroys black sphere as soon as it launches.
2. CST - Seeing how Susano'o in its 3rd stage protected Itachi from Kirin, arguably more _penetrative_ attack than CST, i think its reasonable to assume that Final Susano'o with Yata Mirror can at least protect Itachi from it, if not outright tank it.
3. BT - Can't pull Itachi from Susano'o, he will just hit its armor.



> Not enough to make a difference.



Sasuke wasn't much smarter than Danzo, and it sure made a difference.



> Even Itachi fans are saying Nagato wins here. It seems there's not much to say anymore.



The King shall forgive them their sins for they know not what they do. 



> God > King .



Blasphemy!

False gods shouldn't even be compared to the Holy King.


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## IchLiebe (Mar 16, 2013)

I love how a crippled skeleton man has a better speed feat, reaction feat, strength feat, than that of someone that is supposedly in good health.


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## IchLiebe (Mar 16, 2013)

Rain said:


> @TheIronMan;You seem like a brighter person. I will continue from you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Nagato has preta path which absorbs all kinds of chakra including that of Susanoo. He also has ST that also repels all attacks.





> Itachi can materialize Final Susano'o really fast.


 Not full Susanoo. And not unless he is preemptively prepping chakra for it.





> It seems extremly unlikely that Itachi's jutsu (Totsuka, Yasaka Magatama) can't destroy that small black sphere as soon as Nagato launches it.


 It seems extremly likely that Bee's bijuu bomb could stopped CT but the thing is all 3 attacks where needed. And I see Itachi's attack as the weakest of all of them. Itachi is going to be able to hit a little black sphere that can fit into the palm of my hand while it is rocketing upwards at a very fast pace? No





> CT was already quite big when KN6 attacked.


It gets big quick. By the time Kyuubi fired a bb when CST was just starting, did nothing.





> Totsuka and Tsukuyomi.


 Going by that Rinnegan is an advanced version of Eternal Mangeykou *SHARINGAN* Then Tsukuyomi is useless. Preta makes Susanoo and all of its abilities useless.





> The difference is; in Nagato's situation, Shinra Tensei controlled Bee's movements while in Itachi's Bee was caught offguard while in control of his body.


 Shinra Tensei didn't control Bee's movements, it just pushed him back with a high amount of force, which gives more credence to Nagato has he had to cross more distance than if he had not used ST, and that distance didn't make a difference. What instance are u talking about.

When Itachi said "Behind u" Bee replied with " I know, ok" which in my opinion means that Bee was ready for it and knew. When someone say 2 plus 2=4, Im not going to say "oh wow thanks" Im going to give them a smartass look and say "I would've never known that.''





> Itachi would still be faster.


 Except Nagatos speed feats puts Itachi's to shame.



> Yes, but Itachi knows ST is Nagato's main jutsu, so he will enter Susano'o immediately.


 Thats where u make mistakes, Itachi can win this more times than not, but its not due to his MS. To beat Nagato u must use multiple attacks from multiple directions. MS doesn't meet that requirement. And Susanoo is useless. PRETA PATH EATS ALL CHAKRA.





> Susano'o is solid, Bansho Ten'in can't pull Itachi from it. Itachi will just hit Susano'o's armor.


 Then I guess Madara's isn't solid as Gaara threw Madara out of his and his Susanoo, although some think this will happen it will not, didn't follow him. BT can pull someone out of Susanoo. Unless u got proof like Madara faceplanting his Susanoo when Gaara pulled him out.





> Danzo is far from an idiot too, yet he lost his fight against Sasuke mostly because of intelligence.


 Sasuke won by spamming Susanoo to protect himself from Danzo. Sasuke is an idiot and has caught people with a minuscule effect genjutsu unlike Itachi who flashes his genjutsus effects. Nagato is far from an idiot. He is one of the older shinobis to live, around 38 prob.





> Superior speed combined with exceptional range of the attack almost guarantee it will land.


 Please don't tell me ur still talking about Totsuka like its a game ender. 1 word PRETA. preta path preta path preta path


> Seeing how Nagato's eyes are always open and he has no knowledge on Tsukuyomi, it is guaranteed it will land eventually.


 Seeing as Nagato has the most advanced form of SHARINGAN that called the RINNEGAN, Tsukuyomi ain't doing shit.





> 1. CT - Itachi destroys black sphere as soon as it launches.
> 2. CST - Seeing how Susano'o in its 3rd stage protected Itachi from Kirin, arguably more _penetrative_ attack than CST, i think its reasonable to assume that Final Susano'o with Yata Mirror can at least protect Itachi from it, if not outright tank it.
> 3. BT - Can't pull Itachi from Susano'o, he will just hit its armor.
> 
> ...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 16, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Limited mobility according to Kabuto who said Nagato's not mobile enough.
> 
> Turns out when you claimed it a while back, you were right. When I contested your point about Nagato moving on his own (moving/reacting to Bee and moving to Naruto), I was wrong.



Just as planned 

No more "Nagato couldn't move, otherwise he could dodge totsuka" bullshit


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## Pirao (Mar 16, 2013)

CT or CST GG. Seriously, this thread again?


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## LostSelf (Mar 16, 2013)

Rain said:


> I don't think Itachi will use much jutsu in this fight. Susano'o, Kage Bunshin and Tsukuyomi are enough for a decisive victory. Itachi knows about Preta Path and Shinra Tensei, so he won't even try with Amaterasu.



Kage bunshin and Tsukuyomi can be avoided in this fight. Nagato will be hardly tricked with his sensory skills and linked vision. The same with Tsukuyomi. Susano'o is taxing and Nagato can capitalize that. The only way for Itachi to kill Nagato's summons is Amaterasu or Susano'o.

Nagato can force him to use the mangekyo Sharingan with it, force Itachi to kill the summons and to be aware of Nagato as well at the same time. Nagato can decide to deplete Itachi's chakra overwhelming Itachi with his superior firepower.



> Seeing how Nagato is much slower than Itachi, and Totsuka has exceptional range and slash radius, i find it extremly unlikely that Nagato will outlast it.



Nagato is not much slower than Itachi, and has shown to keep up with Itachi's bunshin feints plus all his reaction feats has been pretty good. If Nagato sees Totsuka as a problem, he can get out of range of it. Or launch CT, push it back with Shinra Tensei, anyway, he can afford much more chakra usage than Itachi can in this fight.



> Itachi can materialize Final Susano'o really fast.



He hasn't shown to do so if i recall.




> It seems extremly unlikely that Itachi's jutsu (Totsuka, Yasaka Magatama) can't destroy that small black sphere as soon as Nagato launches it.



A Bijudama failed to do it. Magatama hasn't shown the feats compared to do that. The same with Totsuka.




> CT was already quite big when KN6 attacked.



The core doesn't grow, only the debris around. And the Bijudama pierced the rocks and exploded from the inside, there the core is. If you see the scan, you can see it.

Aside from that, i find it very hard to believe that one of the Rinnegan's strongest jutsu can be defeated by a simple magatama.





> Totsuka and Tsukuyomi.



If they land. But it's more likely to be hit by an unpredictable and strong enough Shinra Tensei. Considering that Itachi can't see that coming, and to avoid this he needs to have Susano'o up all times. Or to keep his distance without it. Either way is bad for him.




> The difference is; in Nagato's situation, Shinra Tensei controlled Bee's movements while in Itachi's Bee was caught offguard while in control of his body.



Bee said "I know", assuming he was not taken by surprise and could counter attack accordingly.  

With Nagato none of this things could be done as they happened to fast. Bee having to transform in V2 to counter Nagato's blitz even when he knew he had two partners implies that he saw Nagato's attack as more dangerous.



> Itachi would still be faster.


 
Seeing Munboy's scans, it's hard to say. However, since speed won't decide things here, it doesn't matter at all.



> Yes, but Itachi knows ST is Nagato's main jutsu, so he will enter Susano'o immediately.



And that is a bad idea for him, because Nagato's stamina is way bigger. Susano'o's only threat to him is Totsuka, and Nagato can push it back with Shinra Tensei, force Itachi to fight the summons and Nagato at the same time, and launch a Chibaku Tensei if all of this fails. Itachi can't hope to overpower Nagato by using Susano'o this way, otherwise he's killing himself.



> Susano'o is solid, Bansho Ten'in can't pull Itachi from it. Itachi will just hit Susano'o's armor.



Madara's was pulled from it as well. That means the user can be pulled out of Susano'o.



> Danzo is far from an idiot too, yet he lost his fight against Sasuke mostly because of intelligence.



But Danzo had to keep an eye on Tobi, it doesn't matter if he didn't fight or helped Sasuke, his only presence was enough to keep Danzo on guard and not focused 100% on Sasuke. And Sasuke's Susano'o was being too much for Hanzo's firepower. Nagato is different.

I guess i remember Sasuke having help. I will read that fight later again.



> Superior speed combined with exceptional range of the attack almost guarantee it will land.



I explained this above. Superior speed is debatable, but Nagato's reflexes are far from slow and has all the means to dodge and have Susano'o busy. Totsuka's range is large, but not that much.



> Seeing how Nagato's eyes are always open and he has no knowledge on Tsukuyomi, it is guaranteed it will land eventually.



I bet he has knowledge on Tsukuyomi. In their fight, Naruto mentioned it and clearly stated that Tsukuyomi would be a one-hit kill. And even if he doesn't have knowledge (he has), knowing Itachi is an Uchiha is enough to avoid eye contact.



> 1. CT - Itachi destroys black sphere as soon as it launches.



I explained that above.



> 2. CST - Seeing how Susano'o in its 3rd stage protected Itachi from Kirin, arguably more _penetrative_ attack than CST, i think its reasonable to assume that Final Susano'o with Yata Mirror can at least protect Itachi from it, if not outright tank it.



Kirin hasn't shown the destructive force of CST (It's ST, CST is just a fan made name. I say this to bring the oportunity of Nagato using lesser versions of it but deadlier for a single combatant) also, CST's repulsive effect would desintegrate the part not protected of Susano'o. And if somehow Susano'o survives, It will be sent far away.

Now that's assuming Nagato does it the way he did in Konoha, and doesn't hit Itachi in a different way.



> 3. BT - Can't pull Itachi from Susano'o, he will just hit its armor.



I explained this above.



> Sasuke wasn't much smarter than Danzo, and it sure made a difference.



In firepower it did. They are two different fighters as well.



> The King shall forgive them their sins for they know not what they do.



The king has done nothing to me for my sins. Probably because i acknowledge that he's cool and strong. But not on Nagato's level .



> Blasphemy!
> 
> False gods shouldn't even be compared to the Holy King.



Only a true God would revive people forgiving them from their sins. After all Konoha did to Nagato, they were forgiven and granted a new life.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 16, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Just as planned
> 
> No more "Nagato couldn't move, otherwise he could dodge totsuka" bullshit



Actually that still stands. I did note that those speed bursts were that, speed bursts. He still moved like a tortoise when he was pulling Naruto's soul out. Then there's Kabuto saying his mobility was hampered (severely) coupled with Itachi helping the man to walk.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 16, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Actually that still stands. I did note that those speed bursts were that, speed bursts. He still moved like a tortoise when he was pulling Naruto's soul out. Then there's Kabuto saying his mobility was hampered (severely) coupled with Itachi helping the man to walk.



Well it is still fine.

You are suggesting that you need a speed beyond what he used to get behind B, to dodge Totsuka. 
Such speed doesn'T exist


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 16, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Well it is still fine.
> 
> You are suggesting that you need a speed beyond what he used to get behind B, to dodge Totsuka.
> Such speed doesn'T exist



Where are you getting that? The panels suggest he is capable of a some bursts of speed; going by his slow pace after getting to Naruto not too many. But I was using that for the implications his prime speed should be, as prime Nagato was permitted in this thread IIRC. 

Furthermore with Totsuka, there are some stances you can take. First Nagato couldn't dodge what he couldn't see. Rinnegan hasn't shown that it can see through dust/smoke, in fact it has shown the opposite. So that's what happened with Totsuka.

Or second note he is capable of _some_ bursts of speed (which seemed to stop after he got to Naruto), combine what with Kabuto not once referencing Totsuka's speed but rather Nagato's hindered mobility. In other words with all he'd seen in the battle Kabuto was confident he'd be able to take whatever the trio dished out if Nagato had full mobility. 

Both have one thing in common, whether you see it as greater speed or not: Nagato's mobility means he has the speed to evade Totsuka. His bursts of mobility too as a cripple. Such speed exists (assuming it is as you said, greater mobility was required) as Kabuto was more than sure mobility would've changed things for his controlled Nagato.

In short: the speed of Itachi's jutsu and body will not be able to overwhelm Nagato. 

Though ITT Nagato will be able to overwhelm Itachi with those things if he spams summons _alongside_ Gedo Mazo _and_ Pain Rikudou.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 16, 2013)

If Itachi does let his guard down, he will be blitzed.
Sasuke covered a bit of a distance pretty quickly; Yamato (an ANBU) acknowledged that.

Nagato covered a significantly larger distance pretty quickly; a shinobi icon like Hanzo acknowledged that.

Sasuke, the one with the less impressive feat in comparison was able to blitz Itachi easily when the latter let his guard down. Despite the fact Itachi saw it and tried to get out asap.

If Itachi did this, the consequences with Nagato will be more severe. Now Itachi tried to do similar with Sasuke. Only due to his superior speed, Sasuke was able to _adapt to Itachi's speed _and Itachi couldn't land the hit with the kunai as Sasuke did with Chidori. Again with the sword. 
Itachi was smart and kept Sasuke's arms busy so he could land a hit. 

*However* none of us are readily going to say Itachi would have the same luck against a guy who can grow additional arms and weapons... or bring out a Shinra Tensei whenever he wants. A lot faster than Pain can, on top of that.

Nevertheless it actually means that Itachi *cannot* afford to keep his guard down as he learnt again.

This is the only possible way speed _could_ influence this fight. 

This is considering prime Nagato mostly... well cripple too as the OP says the chameleon moves at those insane speeds too. Even more so with the latter if you combine Nagato's burst of speed with the chameleon's granted super speed.

I think Itachi is most at risk of being blitzed if you let Nagato use Pain Rikudou alongside himself. In that case it is almost unavoidable given that Pain will be close to Nagato i.e. Pain's jutsu output will be insane/closer to Nagato's.



> Knowledge: Manga.



This automatically suggests Itachi will at least use a basic Susanoo constantly.

This Susanoo protects him even if he lets his guard down as shown when Sasuke faced a faster foe. Two more examples.


*In short:* a blitz can be avoided by being calm and not acting rash, on Itachi's end. 
Though it may be unavoidable if you make it Nagato *and* Pain Rikudou.

I already touched on how Nagato can  on Itachi.


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## Dr. White (Mar 17, 2013)

Lol neg me because you can't comprehend simple panel action, and sit there calling me out for "not providing" evidence, and "blatantly ignoring" your "evidence", when in all actuality you are the one doing those things...as you got called out on.

Do you understand how the burden of proof works? You don't just get to make claims, and expect people to have to disprove them without making a case that your premise is justified, most of the times beyond reasonable doubt. The claims you made about Nagato were very poorly interpreted on your part, and you stretched the hell out of Kishi's panels to try and fit it around your bias(Nagato shunshing from Chameleon to behind Bee?) until you justify why Kishi would suspend the condition of NAgato he made obvious to prove your point you are not logically justified in your belief.

-snip-


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 17, 2013)

I already proved Nagato moved to Bee, then that he moved twice again. You're claiming the chameleon moved him to those locations *with no proof*. Furthermore you also ignore how he reacted to Bee and moved to Naruto _without_ the chameleon.

With all this considered, your case wasn't a strong one when you say the chameleon moved Nagato to Bee (with no evidence despite being asked more than three times). The panels themselves suggest Nagato didn't use it. However you've provided long winded explanations without a shred of evidence.

You claim it is "obvious", so if it was then you could've swapped long winded explanations for a simple page or panel which illustrates your point. Then again the hole in that case is, what about reacting to Bee and moving to Naruto? Also how did he managed to take steps away from Naruto if he was totally stationary?

The burden on proof was on me when I asserted Nagato moved that quick. I provided a two pages which show three bursts of speed. On top of that a comment on his prime speed. I tackled the onus with the relevant pages.

Then you made the claim that was _not_ the case and that it was "obvious" that the chameleon moved Nagato. There was no presence of the chameleon after the Shinra Tensei; no presence of it moving Nagato. So then the burden shifted to you. If it was so obvious then tackling that burden would've been easy for you. 

However in the end we're left with a situation where I've got pages to support my point, where I've also commented on all the other pages you provided on top of that. In comparison to you: you _still_ haven't provided evidence for this "obvious" thing. 
Instead you provided one page with a comment without so much as touching the other pieces of evidence (reacting to Bee and moving to Naruto). With no sign of the chameleon's presence. 

In short: Munboy's case (commented on all evidence and provided adequate evidence for his assertions) vs Dr White's case (dismissed clear feats and comments, only hinged on one comment and nothing more and provides no evidence of his initial claim which the poster called "obvious"). 

As far the debate goes, I've proved all my points whereas you have not. Trying to pass over *your* burden of proof, or sweep it under the rug does not make up for the fact that you've yet to prove this "obvious" thing you mentioned. Furthermore it doesn't help you didn't even comment on the other feats too. 

You mentioned interpretation, so I ask: where was the notion that Nagato was totally stationary _ever_ suggested? Can you readily state anything belief was suspended when we saw Nagato walking away from Naruto when he pulled his soul? The same when he reacted to Killer Bee's punch _and_ when he moved to Naruto while his chameleon held him?


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## Rain (Mar 20, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Kage bunshin and Tsukuyomi can be avoided in this fight. Nagato will be hardly tricked with his sensory skills and linked vision. The same with Tsukuyomi. Susano'o is taxing and Nagato can capitalize that. The only way for Itachi to kill Nagato's summons is Amaterasu or Susano'o.



You make it sound as if Itachi can't hold Susano'o long enough to end this match.

Half-dead, sick and blind Itachi who spammed Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu before, held his Final Susano'o for 10-15 minutes. 
Healthy Itachi who doesn't spam Amaterasu should be able to maintain it for much longer.

Nagato can't distinguish Kage Bunshin from original Itachi.

I don't think it will be a problem for Itachi with Kage Bunshin to counter Shared vision just like in the canon.



> Nagato can force him to use the mangekyo Sharingan with it, force Itachi to kill the summons and to be aware of Nagato as well at the same time. Nagato can decide to deplete Itachi's chakra overwhelming Itachi with his superior firepower.



Susano'o or Kage Bunshin can deal with summons. Or Itachi just puts them under his control via genjutsu.

Nothing in Nagato's arsenal except _maybe_ Massive ST stands a chance of breaking Itachi's Final Susano'o.



> Nagato is not much slower than Itachi, and has shown to keep up with Itachi's bunshin feints plus all his reaction feats has been pretty good. If Nagato sees Totsuka as a problem, he can get out of range of it. Or launch CT, push it back with Shinra Tensei, anyway, he can afford much more chakra usage than Itachi can in this fight.



Itachi is much faster than Nagato. Nagato was never praised for his speed. It's just a matter of time he gets sealed.

Agreed with the last part, though it won't make any difference in this battle.



> He hasn't shown to do so if i recall.



He can activate level 3 or 4 Susnan'o instantly. It doesn't take much time from that to the Final version.



> A Bijudama failed to do it. Magatama hasn't shown the feats compared to do that. The same with Totsuka.



Kyuubi used Bijuudama too late. CT was already very strong.



> The core doesn't grow, only the debris around. And the Bijudama pierced the rocks and exploded from the inside, there the core is. If you see the scan, you can see it.



I stand corrected for the first part.  But judging from that scan, it definitely didn't explode near the core . 

Also rocks mitigated Bijuudama's impact. 



> Aside from that, i find it very hard to believe that one of the Rinnegan's strongest jutsu can be defeated by a simple magatama.



It's an extremly powerful jutsu if the opponen't doesn't have knowledge on it or strong long-ranged attacks.

Every jutsu has a weakness. 



> If they land. But it's more likely to be hit by an unpredictable and strong enough Shinra Tensei. Considering that Itachi can't see that coming, and to avoid this he needs to have Susano'o up all times. Or to keep his distance without it. Either way is bad for him.



I addresed this above. Regular Shinra Tensei can't push or destroy Susano'o.



> Bee said "I know", assuming he was not taken by surprise and could counter attack accordingly.



Well he didn't start moving until Itachi warned him. And the correct translation is "okay". 



> With Nagato none of this things could be done as they happened to fast. Bee having to transform in V2 to counter Nagato's blitz even when he knew he had two partners implies that he saw Nagato's attack as more dangerous.



Bee entered V2 because he saw the DC of Shinra Tensei.
Well, also to make sure Nagato sucks his chakra and gets his prime powers. 



> Seeing Munboy's scans, it's hard to say. However, since speed won't decide things here, it doesn't matter at all.



Speed won't decide things directly ( i.e. No blitzing), but its always a good advatange to be faster than your opponent. It will make sealing with Totsuka much easier.



> And that is a bad idea for him, because Nagato's stamina is way bigger. Susano'o's only threat to him is Totsuka, and Nagato can push it back with Shinra Tensei, force Itachi to fight the summons and Nagato at the same time, and launch a Chibaku Tensei if all of this fails. Itachi can't hope to overpower Nagato by using Susano'o this way, otherwise he's killing himself.



Well, i think we are just going in circles here. I already addresed all this stuff before.



> Madara's was pulled from it as well. That means the user can be pulled out of Susano'o.



Not by Bansho Ten'in. 

The only reason Gaara pulled Madara out of Susanoo was because he pulled the two apart, not just pulled one without influencing the other. If he used the sand on Madara only  there's no reason Susano'o wouldn't get dragged along too.

Also level 4 and higher versions of Susano'o keep the user anchored to the ground, as seen in the Sasuke vs Danzo fight.



> But Danzo had to keep an eye on Tobi, it doesn't matter if he didn't fight or helped Sasuke, his only presence was enough to keep Danzo on guard and not focused 100% on Sasuke. And Sasuke's Susano'o was being too much for Hanzo's firepower. Nagato is different.



He had Izanagi activated, so i don't see why would he be worried about Tobi.



> I bet he has knowledge on Tsukuyomi. In their fight, Naruto mentioned it and clearly stated that Tsukuyomi would be a one-hit kill. And even if he doesn't have knowledge (he has), knowing Itachi is an Uchiha is enough to avoid eye contact.



Avoiding eye contact is not an easy task unless you are a master at it. And Itachi can force it with a Kage Bunshin.



> Kirin hasn't shown the destructive force of CST (It's ST, CST is just a fan made name. I say this to bring the oportunity of Nagato using lesser versions of it but deadlier for a single combatant) also, CST's repulsive effect would desintegrate the part not protected of Susano'o. And if somehow Susano'o survives, It will be sent far away.



Maybe, but Kirin has definitely shown greater piercing power than ST. And piercing power is definitely more useful against something as solid as Susano'o.



> In firepower it did. They are two different fighters as well.



Danzo ultimately lost the fight because Sasuke outsmarted him.


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## Rob (Mar 22, 2013)

Jesus... this is quite the fight in this section huh? 

I'd say Nagato. 

Amaterasu won't work. 
Nagato can repel any Nnijutsu. 

I'm not sure how he fares against Genjutsu 

Chibaku Tenseis a bitch too, +All those summons. 

I'd assume that that would just overwhelm Itachi.


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## Rain (Mar 24, 2013)

TheIronMan, seeing how we are going in circles i will just address the main points of our disagreement

*CT* - I really find it hard to believe that Itachi's Yasaka Magatama is not strong enough to destroy that small black core as soon as it's launched.

*CST* - This attack is definitely got very strong pushing power, but can it really destroy full powered Yata Mirror-equipped Susano'o? I don't think so. It might push him away, though.

*Speed* - Itachi is amongst the fastest characters in the manga, surpassed only by Minato, Ei, Naruto and Gai. I can accept that Nagato's reactions/senses are extremly good, but he is definitely not on Itachi's level in terms of movement/shunshin speed.

*Bansho Ten'in* - Madara was pulled out of his Susano'o because Gaara held it in place with his sand. Bansho Ten'in would have the same requirement; something to hold Susano'o in place.
Oh and there is always that possibility that Itachi's Susano'o can just catch him with his arms if Nagato pulls him out miraculously.

*Summons* - Itachi's Bunshin can take care of them via shurikenjutsu. He doesn't need to kill them.


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## Krippy (Mar 24, 2013)

alive Itachi lacks the stamina to take on an opponent with this much firepower


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## Mercurial (Mar 24, 2013)

Rain said:


> TheIronMan, seeing how we are going in circles i will just address the main points of our disagreement
> 
> *CT* - I really find it hard to believe that Itachi's Yasaka Magatama is not strong enough to destroy that small black core as soon as it's launched.
> 
> ...


sure but the sphere goes high very fast and Magatama doesn't seems so fast,and needs a short prep

Kakashi and Obito are on his same level of speed,if not even faster,and Sennin Mode Kabuto too

not because it works diifferently,Nagato can chose what to pull

I agree with the rest


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 24, 2013)

Itachi is fast for his level. However when a character is particularly fast for their level it is always noted. For instance, Sasuke and Nagato. Even guys like Minato and Ei are mentioned and repeated multiple times to solidify their supremacy in speed.

Sasuke and Nagato covered a fairly large distance (Nagato's was greater) and it was complimented. Ergo they are fast for their level. To add perspective Sasuke was capable of blitzing Itachi twice when the latter let his guard down twice. If you say Itachi is on Nagato's level, then Nagato is faster as his speed had to be highlighted despite his level.
If you believe Nagato's on a level above, then there's no point in debating speed as the difference is clear.

Speed will only ever influence a fight if Itachi stays off guard.

Now I say this because it seems the first two lines of my large initial post caused the speed point to be taken farther than it should've been.



Rain said:


> *CT* - I really find it hard to believe that Itachi's Yasaka Magatama is not strong enough to destroy that small black core as soon as it's launched.



If this was the case, then someone as smart as Itachi would've jumped into action the moment it was launched. Instead he took time out (which meant letting CT getting stronger) to ask for help. Furthermore we have seen through Madara and Itachi (against Kabuto) that the Magatama are comparable to explosive tags.

The question then becomes: do you think explosive takes can take CT?



> *CST* - This attack is definitely got very strong pushing power, but can it really destroy full powered Yata Mirror-equipped Susano'o? I don't think so. It might push him away, though.



You're right in saying the mirror can defend. But in a practice how likely is it that Itachi will get it up in time? I ask this bearing in mind that ocular powers and sensory powers have not helped their uses predict Shinra Tensei. Sensing powers from Sages (higher than that of humans) and ocular powers of the Byakugan (more insight than the Sharingan), on that matter.



> *Speed* - Itachi is amongst the fastest characters in the manga, surpassed only by Minato, Ei, Naruto and Gai. I can accept that Nagato's reactions/senses are extremly good, but he is definitely not on Itachi's level in terms of movement/shunshin speed.



I can't agree that he is among the fastest. The fasted have comments on their speed. Ei and Minato are example of that. Those who are fast for their level are also noted, Sasuke and Nagato are examples of that. 

Itachi is fast for his level, so citing "Itachi level" is meaningless when you refer to movement/shunshin speed because Itachi level in that department isn't special. If it was it would've been brought up. Y'know just like his seal speed and reaction time.



> *Bansho Ten'in* - Madara was pulled out of his Susano'o because Gaara held it in place with his sand. Bansho Ten'in would have the same requirement; something to hold Susano'o in place.
> Oh and there is always that possibility that Itachi's Susano'o can just catch him with his arms if Nagato pulls him out miraculously.



Interesting point. However we can also say Susanoo was held down because it was hacking and slashing. Further your point holds true if Susanoo is the overall target e.g. with Danzo and the Baku. In this case Itachi would be the particular target, not Susanoo. Nagato wouldn't have been able pull the rock because it was underwater.



> *Summons* - Itachi's Bunshin can take care of them via shurikenjutsu. He doesn't need to kill them.



That's underestimating them a bit much. Shuriken jutsu worked effectively when Itachi wasn't the target not the case here. 
A lot of us would agree that hitting summons that are going for you and summons which remain stationary are two very distinctive scenarios.


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## Baroxio (Mar 24, 2013)

Wait, is somebody actually arguing that Nagato, the guy whose complete lack of mobility was repeatedly highlighted, is faster than Itachi? 

Really? 

I mean, in the first scan I posted Nagato himself says that he can't move very much on his own, and has to mitigate that with his summons (he says "or maybe I can" right after summoning a giant bird). That right there invalidates any claim of Nagato moving ridiculous distances on his own. 

As for the "feat" in question, considering we *know *he started from inside his chameleon's mouth, and we *know *he uses his summons to mitigate his complete lack of mobility, it's far more likely that he simply crossed the distance *with *his summon. Not only is there _*no *_evidence to say that Nagato shunshin'd all the way behind Killer Bee, there is mountains of *counter *evidence both before AND after the supposed "feat" that suggest that Nagato *lacks *the mobility to do such things.

Nagato is many things, but a fast ninja is not one of them.

Moreover, distance feats in this manga are not the same thing as speed feats, since we lack a verifiable time frame between panels. Even then, Killer Bee, who has one of the best distance feats in the manga against Team Taka (while being attacked from behind after being electrocuted, no less), was on the verge of getting blitzed by Itachi, who has no distance feats to speak of.

So saying that Nagato has a distance feat, even if it were legitimate, can't be used as proof to say that Nagato is faster than Itachi.


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## LostSelf (Mar 24, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Wait, is somebody actually arguing that Nagato, the guy whose complete lack of mobility was repeatedly highlighted, is faster than Itachi?
> 
> Really?
> 
> ...



Well, if you see, there are lines around Nagato implying that he fell at high speed, as if he jumped and was showing moving fast enough before Naruto could capitalize. The first one is arguably. But i don't think the chameleon could or would toss hard someone with problems in his legs, since if he's not strong enough to move on his own, then he won't be able to land properly considering the scan shows Nagato landing at high speed. Also, some things that proves he can move are his legs, they were strong enough to handle his weight, Naruto's and Bee's. If his legs were strong enough to do so, and if we imply that he, crippled, moved fast to catch Naruto, then a mobile Nagato should move fast enough.

Faster than now, though. Also, i can't move much doesn't mean i can't move. It means he can move, probably without consecutive movement, but he can. 

And so, if the chameleon was the one that moved... Are we saying that the chameleon's speed puts Itachi's to shame? . Either way, and since the Chameleon can't shunshin, we assume it used it's own movement speed to do so, how is Itachi touching something that fast combined with Nagato's sensing to counter the only jutsu he has to kill it (Amaterasu)?



Rain said:


> TheIronMan, seeing how we are going in circles i will just address the main points of our disagreement
> 
> *CT* - I really find it hard to believe that Itachi's Yasaka Magatama is not strong enough to destroy that small black core as soon as it's launched.



For me is the opposite. Itachi's magatama is featless as to assume it can destroy the core when Itachi himself said "Let's attack it at the same time with our most powerful long range ninjutsu!". That said, everything, feats, Itachi's behaviour in fight to end things quick, the same comment of CT growing stronger with the debris and Itachi's words points that Itachi alone couldn't destroy the core. And needed Naruto and Bee. A featless attack vs CT when the same user asked for help heavily implies that Itachi can't take down CT.

Because if he could, he would have done the job himself, hell, Kishimoto loves making Itachi look good. If CT, in his mind, was easily destroyed or Magatama was so powerful to do it alone, he would've done that with Itachi, making him look way better.



> *CST* - This attack is definitely got very strong pushing power, but can it really destroy full powered Yata Mirror-equipped Susano'o? I don't think so. It might push him away, though.



Probably Yata Mirror can take CST, though Susano'o would definitely be sent flying. Now, If Itachi has Susano'o up with Yata Mirror at that time, then he would survive it if Susano'o doesn't hurt him while clashing. However, Nagato doesn't need to do the same steps to use it like in Konoha. And Itachi can't predict that Jutsu or put Yata Mirror up in time. Him surviving CST in this fight is not very likely in my opinion.



> *Speed* - Itachi is amongst the fastest characters in the manga, surpassed only by Minato, Ei, Naruto and Gai. I can accept that Nagato's reactions/senses are extremly good, but he is definitely not on Itachi's level in terms of movement/shunshin speed.



I explained this above to Baroxio, though.



> *Bansho Ten'in* - Madara was pulled out of his Susano'o because Gaara held it in place with his sand. Bansho Ten'in would have the same requirement; something to hold Susano'o in place.
> Oh and there is always that possibility that Itachi's Susano'o can just catch him with his arms if Nagato pulls him out miraculously.



Munboy did it, (Yeah, i know i'm lazy).



> *Summons* - Itachi's Bunshin can take care of them via shurikenjutsu. He doesn't need to kill them.



Munboy said all i would've said here. It's not the same taking out summons that are focused on another target, all of them and when Itachi has been forgotten by the same user (Kabuto, considerigng that Summons have linked vision, none of them saw the Kunais. Especially if Kabuto suffered Amnesia in this fight). than taking them out when you are the target.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 24, 2013)

> As for the "feat" in question, considering we know he started from inside his chameleon's mouth, and we know he uses his summons to mitigate his complete lack of mobility, it's far more likely that he simply crossed the distance with his summon. Not only is there no evidence to say that Nagato shunshin'd all the way behind Killer Bee, there is mountains of counter evidence both before AND after the supposed "feat" that suggest that Nagato lacks the mobility to do such things.



If we know this then it is a piece of cake to prove that he used his chameleon to get to Killer Bee, Naruto and to move towards the Hell Realm summon, right?

The fact that we saw Nagato move to Bee, react to Bee and move to Naruto all without any summons aiding him is evidence enough. The trick is to prove that there was a summon, 'cause you see the work is already done for those who say there wasn't. 

We know Nagato can't move on his own, however Itachi wasn't lifting the man off the ground, he helped Nagato walk. So Nagato was capable of limited mobility. Looking at the two times he moved with Bee and the one time he moved to Naruto (the bursts of speed), he was capable of limited mobility. The fact he took little steps towards the Hell Realm summon show his mobility was limited, but not gone. 
He even got up after Susanoo knocked him down, shouldn't be possible for someone not mobile at all.

The problem here is a lot are mistaking "can't move well on my own" with "I am totally stationary". 



> Moreover, distance feats in this manga are not the same thing as speed feats, since we lack a verifiable time frame between panels. Even then, Killer Bee, who has one of the best distance feats in the manga against Team Taka (while being attacked from behind after being electrocuted, no less), was on the verge of getting blitzed by Itachi, who has no distance feats to speak of.



We lack verifiable time hence we rely on characters to tell us if the feat was splendid or not. If the feat was splendid according to manga characters, then it was a good feat. If it wasn't noted then it is expected for a ninja of that level. Nagato's distance feat in his prime was noted, much like Sasuke. 

Furthermore we're not measuring precise distance, we have the common sense to know that Nagato wasn't close to Bee/Hanzo/Naruto. So he had to travel quite a distance to get to them. Hanzo because well, Hanzo felt compelled to note the feat. Naruto and Bee, well the man was said to be crippled. So a crippled man doing that is just, well damn.


In short: you can say Nagato isn't fast. However you'd be wrong because that argument relies on long winded explanations from my experience as opposed to actually proving anything. For instance, not once have I seen an argument using Nagato's comment factor in Nagato reacting to Bee and moving to Naruto. 

Once again it leads to my assertion: Nagato is fast (with evidence) and the other side that posits that he is stationary (ignores pieces of evidence).

Why speed? Well the bursts have implications, not big ones. Why mention it at all? Prime Nagato is permitted in this thread, hence why I mention it. Why was it debated for so long? Interesting topic I guess, I mean in my initial long posts I made far more assertions than speed.....


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## Rain (Mar 24, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If this was the case, then someone as smart as Itachi would've jumped into action the moment it was launched. Instead he took time out (which meant letting CT getting stronger) to ask for help. Furthermore we have seen through Madara and Itachi (against Kabuto) that the Magatama are comparable to explosive tags.



Itachi didn't know what CT actually does until it started pulling rocks, and then it was too late for him to destroy it by himself. 
Itachi's Magatama against Kabuto was different because he used it for different purpose (I.E. to surround Kabuto and not to destroy him). He split the power into four smaller Magatama's.



> The question then becomes: do you think explosive takes can take CT?



Possibly, but i don't see how is that relevant given that full powered Yasaka Magatama is much stronger.



> You're right in saying the mirror can defend. But in a practice how likely is it that Itachi will get it up in time? I ask this bearing in mind that ocular powers and sensory powers have not helped their uses predict Shinra Tensei. Sensing powers from Sages (higher than that of humans) and ocular powers of the Byakugan (more insight than the Sharingan), on that matter.



My question is, why *wouldn't* he have it up all the time, knowing the destructive capabilities of Rinnegan?

Also while Itachi isn't a sensor, he can see what's in the mind of his opponents and predict their next move, as noted by Kabuto. I am sure he would know when Nagato gets pissed and decides to use CST.



> I can't agree that he is among the fastest. The fasted have comments on their speed. Ei and Minato are example of that. Those who are fast for their level are also noted, Sasuke and Nagato are examples of that.



Well he is obviously not faster than Ei, Minato, Naruto and Gai (gates). I'd say he is definitely in the top 10 though.



> Itachi is fast for his level, so citing "Itachi level" is meaningless when you refer to movement/shunshin speed because Itachi level in that department isn't special. If it was it would've been brought up. Y'know just like his seal speed and reaction time.



Honestly, i think that Itachi's feats make up for the lack of hype in this particular category.
I mean going toe to toe with Rikudou Mode Naruto and Kirabi(both are extremly fast fighters), and practically blitzing Killer Bee from afar trump anything Nagato has ever shown in terms of movement speed.



> Interesting point. However we can also say Susanoo was held down because it was hacking and slashing. Further your point holds true if Susanoo is the overall target e.g. with Danzo and the Baku. In this case Itachi would be the particular target, not Susanoo. Nagato wouldn't have been able pull the rock because it was underwater.



If Nagato targets Itachi alone, the Susano'o will come with its user, unless it's held by something. He needs to separate the two in order to pull the user without influencing Susano'o and vice-versa.

If he can use double Bansho Ten'in simultaneously in two different directions or BT and ST simultaneously, then yes he can pull the user. But, as far as i know, he is not capable of such feats.



> That's underestimating them a bit much. Shuriken jutsu worked effectively when Itachi wasn't the target not the case here.
> A lot of us would agree that hitting summons that are going for you and summons which remain stationary are two very distinctive scenarios.



Can't Itachi replicate the situation via making himself the target, while Kage Bunshin does the job?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 24, 2013)

Rain said:


> Itachi didn't know what CT actually does until it started pulling rocks, and then it was too late for him to destroy it by himself.
> Itachi's Magatama against Kabuto was different because he used it for different purpose (I.E. to surround Kabuto and not to destroy him). He split the power into four smaller Magatama's.



He has a Sharingan that decodes jutsu. Even when he found out, if he could he would've. However he couldn't as he asked for help. Furthermore Magatama is still Magatama, unless you're Sasuke. We saw what one Magatama can do, triple that and you get Itachi's. 

Bijuu-Dama we can actually give the benefit of the doubt because it has an impressive destructive record, same with FRS. Magatama, there's nothing to even remotely suggest it has the destructive power comparable to the jutsu I mentioned. Much less the power to take on Magatama.

Itachi's smart and doesn't do things without reason, he wouldn't have asked his team mates to help if he knew he could do it alone. I would accept the "he split the Magatama's power" explanation if we had any indication that the Magatama had supreme power that could diminish once it is split.



> Possibly, but i don't see how is that relevant given that full powered Yasaka Magatama is much stronger.



If explosive tags could've done the job, I don't see why three characters (well two) would waste chakra under the supervision of the smartest character using nuke jutsu. 
We've nothing to say a full power Magatama is more powerful than what we've seen from other Magatama. At most, Madara using it on Tsunade suggested that its literally just three Magatama in one. Seeing them individually, it wasn't something overly impressive.

Impressive to suggest it can decimate CT.



> My question is, why *wouldn't* he have it up all the time, knowing the destructive capabilities of Rinnegan?
> 
> Also while Itachi isn't a sensor, he can see what's in the mind of his opponents and predict their next move, as noted by Kabuto. I am sure he would know when Nagato gets pissed and decides to use CST.



So he would constantly shield himself? He would only rely on Amaterasu and other Ninjutsu for offence while sacrificing Susanoo's offensive power to defend? That's the only way he'll defend against a ST, which no sensor or ocular power user couldn't anticipate.

It will be hard to believe that without the mirror, he can do well against an extremely powerful ST. The strongest ST was used through Pain, whose canonically not got power up to Nagato's standard. That was a chakra deprived Nagato pumping chakra into God Realm. ITT, Nagato isn't chakra deprived, so his CST would logically be much more destructive.

Itachi can't see what's in the mind of his opponent. He only defended Sasuke as it was obvious to everyone, even readers, who Kabuto would target. The fact Kabuto could stab Itachi with spikes in a cave shows that. 
Nagato has more than the God Realm, Itachi needs to worry about the Preta, Demon and Human and Hell if he gets close. 

Fixating on one Path will lead to his destruction. The most dangerous thing about the God Path is Nagato can randomly use it. As Kakashi witnessed twice. Nagato can use it faster than Pain and with more power. So predicting any ST won't be easy, if it isn't impossible.


> Honestly, i think that Itachi's feats make up for the lack of hype in this particular category.
> I mean going toe to toe with Rikudou Mode Naruto and Kirabi(both are extremly fast fighters), and practically blitzing Killer Bee from afar trump anything Nagato has ever shown in terms of movement speed.



His feats indicate that he is fast for someone on his level. Hence no hype. 
Toe to toe with Rikudou Naruto? If Naruto wanting to talk means anything counts. Unless you're going to say Naruto can move on the level of A, which is what you're doing when you say he can move on RM Naruto's level, then this point isn't a strong one.

Furthermore that point diminished exponentially when we see Naruto blitzing the Sandaime Raikage with FRS, with movements far beyond Itachi's capacity.

Itachi was relatively close to Bee and got behind him, Bee reacts in base mode. Nagato, whose a cripple, gets behind Bee from a larger distance... Bee goes to V2 to react. Doesn't sound like Itachi topped Nagato.



> If Nagato targets Itachi alone, the Susano'o will come with its user, unless it's held by something. He needs to separate the two in order to pull the user without influencing Susano'o and vice-versa.
> 
> If he can use double Bansho Ten'in simultaneously in two different directions or BT and ST simultaneously, then yes he can pull the user. But, as far as i know, he is not capable of such feats.



How do we know Susano will come with its user? Baku almost took Susanoo because it was taking everything. However if Susanoo really comes with the user, Gaara shouldn't have been able to split Madara from Susanoo. 
By your line of logic, we have to say Nagato was incapable of pulling the rock he pulled against Naruto. It was underwater, it was covered in water (just like the user of Susanoo is covered with Susanoo), so logically he couldn't separate them.... But he did. 



> Can't Itachi replicate the situation via making himself the target, while Kage Bunshin does the job?



If Nagato is preoccupied with other things whilst summons are stationary, I guess. 
My point is that situation can never occur under normal conditions i.e. where Nagato is in control and Itachi is his only foe.

Not only would Nagato be able to sense Itachi, but he wouldn't be preoccupied (e.g. taking souls out) with trying to capture a target in a condition that allows him to revive them. Nagato in a battle would be trying to seek and destroy Itachi, meaning that "preserve the Jinchuriki" condition won't apply; a vital situation for Itachi's condition. In addition he would have control of himself (he would retain his sensing abilities). 

In short: in an actual battle, it would be more or less impossible to replicate those conditions, even with clones.


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## Baroxio (Mar 24, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Well, if you see, there are lines around Nagato implying that he fell at high speed, as if he jumped and was showing moving fast enough before Naruto could capitalize. The first one is arguably. But i don't think the chameleon could or would toss hard someone with problems in his legs, since if he's not strong enough to move on his own, then he won't be able to land properly considering the scan shows Nagato landing at high speed. Also, some things that proves he can move are his legs, they were strong enough to handle his weight, Naruto's and Bee's. If his legs were strong enough to do so, and if we imply that he, crippled, moved fast to catch Naruto, then a mobile Nagato should move fast enough.



What are you talking about? 

Nagato jumped from his invisible summon's mouth to where Killer Bee was. The fact that not only is there seemingly nothing behind Killer Bee as he moves backwards in the first scan you posted before Nagato arrives, ompounded with the fact that said Chameleon is actually right there behind Bee as well suggests that his actual distance was miniscule. 

If the chameleon was in the same position as it was in the top panel you might have a point, but as we can see it's behind Bee too. Logic dictates that the chameleon moved behind Bee and the "immobile" Nagato simply hopped out of it's mouth (seeming to appear out of nowhere as he did in the scan).

As for the second scan you posted, Naruto was caught by the invisible chameleon before Nagato moved towards him. I seriously don't know what you must be smoking to think that Nagato was "blitzing" Naruto or whatever you meant by saying "moving fast enough before Naruto could capitalize."



> Faster than now, though. Also, i can't move much doesn't mean i can't move. It means he can move, probably without consecutive movement, but he can.
> 
> And so, if the chameleon was the one that moved... Are we saying that the chameleon's speed puts Itachi's to shame? . Either way, and since the Chameleon can't shunshin, we assume it used it's own movement speed to do so, how is Itachi touching something that fast combined with Nagato's sensing to counter the only jutsu he has to kill it (Amaterasu)?



I've already given my opinions on this match as being one where a fully realized and non-idiotic Nagato could win.

I don't care if you wish to say that Nagato's chameleon is super duper fast, or "Animal Realm solos," or whatever, but when you start bringing blatant falsehoods like "Nagato is faster than Itachi," when we all know that the problem with Nagato was his complete lack of mobility, I'm afraid I must object.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If we know this then it is a piece of cake to prove that he used his chameleon to get to Killer Bee, Naruto and to move towards the Hell Realm summon, right?



What does this have to do with anything? I said Nagato had a lack of mobility, I never said he couldn't move at all. 

My one and only point of objection in this thread is saying that Nagato is physically faster than Itachi. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The fact that we saw Nagato move to Bee,



Except we didn't see this at all. We saw Nagato in the mouth of his chameleon summon, then we saw him literally appear out of nowhere behind Bee when there was nothing there before (which is exactly what we would see if the Chameleon was there, which, as we know from the next page, it is).

I see no reason to summon anything if he is capable of making huge jumps like that in the first place.



> react to Bee



Has absolutely nothing to do with movement speed.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> and move to Naruto all without any summons aiding him



Naruto moved towards him and was caught by his chameleon. Rejuvenated Nagato moved approximately 2 feet in order to lay a hand on a stationary Naruto. 

None of this says that he can shunshin jump large distances without the aid of his summons. In fact, it says that he needs to hold his opponents still in order to effectively use his techniques, something that wouldn't be necessary if indeed he was fast enough to casually blitz and get behind them. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> is evidence enough.



The very fact that we are even having this conversation is evidence enough that what you just said was not "evidence enough."



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The trick is to prove that there was a summon, 'cause you see the work is already done for those who say there wasn't.



We see that his summons has moved to the same location that he was, and that he literally appeared out of thin air, just like he previously did.

Combined with his canonically poor mobility, Occam's Razor tells me that Nagato suddenly shunshin jumping behind Bee on his own without the aid of his summon is not as believeable an assertion as an Immobile Nagato traveling there with his summon (that we see is there on the next page, to say nothing of Nagato supposedly appearing out of nowhere where we can see that there is nothing behind Bee) and that as such, I must go with the more believable assertion. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We know Nagato can't move on his own, however Itachi wasn't lifting the man off the ground, he helped Nagato walk. So Nagato was capable of limited mobility.



I don't dispute that he can move small distances.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Looking at the two times he moved with Bee and the one time he moved to Naruto (the bursts of speed), he was capable of limited mobility.



I believe I've covered both of these as cases which are most likely aided with his invisible summon, or cases of small distances, either of which are more logical than assuming that a supposedly immobile Nagato can shunshin huge distances unassisted, despite already being in the mouth of a summon that was allowing him to move in the previous page. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The fact he took little steps towards the Hell Realm summon show his mobility was limited, but not gone.
> He even got up after Susanoo knocked him down, shouldn't be possible for someone not mobile at all.
> 
> The problem here is a lot are mistaking "can't move well on my own" with "I am totally stationary".



Again, I do not dispute that Nagato can move small distances. I only dispute claims suggesting that "Nagato is faster than Itachi."



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We lack verifiable time hence we rely on characters to tell us if the feat was splendid or not. If the feat was splendid according to manga characters, then it was a good feat. If it wasn't noted then it is expected for a ninja of that level. Nagato's distance feat in his prime was noted, much like Sasuke.
> 
> Furthermore we're not measuring precise distance, we have the common sense to know that Nagato wasn't close to Bee/Hanzo/Naruto. So he had to travel quite a distance to get to them. Hanzo because well, Hanzo felt compelled to note the feat. Naruto and Bee, well the man was said to be crippled. So a crippled man doing that is just, well damn.
> 
> ...



Contrary to what you may believe, comments from characters are subjective, not objective. Case in point: Rin commenting that "[Minato's] Shunshin...so fast," when we know for certain that what Minato used in that specific incident was not Shunshin but Hirashin. Kishimoto goes as far as labeling that specific incident as Hirashin in his very databook.

So relying on a "speed" comment from characters to tell you wheter or not a character is fast is faulty from the get go. 

So I have to ask then, was there ever a time when Itachi was mentioned to be "fast," by another character? If not, is Itachi not fast? 

Rather than waiting for your answer, I will get to the point. Of course Itachi is fast. He's not fast because xyz character said so, he's fast because the autor showed us that he is fast. His ability to completely blindside top tier speedsters and other jounin, his ability to shunshin backwards 15 meters before Killer Bee can complete a sword strike and is hanging in the air, the ability to fire off 100+ shuriken to face off against a (noted to be fast) person summoning shuriken directly into his hands with vastly superior eyesight, etc.

These are things called feats. They are the clearest way of knowing somebody is fast, strong, intelligent, etc. Just because nobody stated that Sage Naruto is ridiculously strong doesn't mean shit if he can toss giant Rhinos into the stratosphere.

So whenever possible, I try to focus on feats, over more subjective things such as character statements.

I admit, I have a high standard for speed feats. I rarely count things as actual speed feats unless I can see the beginning and ending points of a speedy event. The best ones include some sort of timeframe (very few manga speed feats qualify under that last condition, with Itachi's and Minato's being the only ones that come to mind). 

Feats are objective evidence, and cannot be disputed. If the feat can be reasonably disputed, then in my boo at least, it's not a feat. 

This is how my mind works when it comes to Naruto.  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why speed? Well the bursts have implications, not big ones. Why mention it at all? Prime Nagato is permitted in this thread, hence why I mention it. Why was it debated for so long? Interesting topic I guess, I mean in my initial long posts I made far more assertions than speed.....



In my mind, Prime Nagato refers to Nagato after he'd been rejuvenated by Killer Bee (Kishimoto himself refers to him as this in the end of the chapter). Unfortunately, this version of Nagato still has mobility problems, as Kabuto himself mentions. 

If we are considering a Nagato with perfect legs, then I would still need to see a qualifying feat match the above conditions that puts him ahead of Itachi.

But if it's just a question of "can Nagato walk" then sure. "Will Nagato get blitzed by Itachi?" Heck no. 

But "Is Nagato faster than Itachi?" No way in hell, as far as I am concerned.


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## LostSelf (Mar 24, 2013)

Baroxio on the defensive and getting to worked up. How do you prove the chameleon was behind Bee at the same time you're implying that Nagato can't move when he clearly moved to catch Naruto?.

When did i said Nagato can blitz Naruto? The lines shows Nagato landing and not a normal landing, all the lines are heavily suggesting as if he jumped fast. The chameleon couldn?t have dropped him like that, though.

And i'm not saying the chameleon is super duper fast, nor implying that Nagato is faster than Itachi. I tried to make you say that the chameleon is faster than Itachi if you believe that he moved Nagato. You're putting words in my mouth and getting angry at a computer. If the chameleon moved that fast, then it's cleary faster than Itachi (Now i said it). Now, since the chameleon was not seen AND Naruto couldn't sense it near Bee, it probably was not there and went there afterwards.

So the only statement is Nagato saying he can't move much on his own. But he never implied he couldn't move and was an stationary fighter. Not that it matters, he's mobile here and has good speed feats (The chameleon one is still debatable.)


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 24, 2013)

I said it before and I will say it again, long winded explanations and rationalisations will not get us anywhere. 
Evidence shows Nagato moving to Bee and Naruto without a summon. We need evidence showing otherwise, not what I criticised an earlier argument for - the lack of evidence.

This Nagato speed argument, this is all I'm seeing:
Side 1: Nagato can move decently fast (bursts while crippled), and there is decent evidence.

Side 2: Nagato can't. He just can't. He said so look. Kabuto said so look.

Side two ignores the evidence side one provides. However side one actually acknowledged and commented (logically) on the evidence the other side provided. Hence side one is stronger. I know that as before I was on in side arguing against side two. I still see no ample reason to not believe side one. 

Next up we cannot say Itachi has supreme speed for his level when nobody in the manga comment on his movement speed. We had respectable hype for Sasuke and Nagato to indicate that they were fast for their level; for goodness sake the later moved to Bee and reacted to him and even moved to Naruto swiftly while he was crippled. 
Then we have insane speedsters whose speed are literally in our face like KCM Naruto, Raikages and Minato. 

To be honest I do not understand why speed got this far, and I started it _inadvertently_; look how much of my initial post hinges on speed (in bold and red):


*Spoiler*: __ 





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> *Nagato is faster than Itachi given the distance he can cover in a short time; Hanzo agrees it is impressive.
> Additionally given he can move swiftly after hitting a foe with Shinra Tensei, react against a relatively fast opponent using Bijuu power and get to the nine tails without him noticing, something Itachi couldn't do. The latter feats are impressive as this was done with hampered mobility.
> 
> In other words Itachi cannot and will not be able to blitz Nagato as Nagato will be able to adapt to his speed.*
> ...






The blue... is how much got overlooked for the most minute point I made. 

This caused me to . Given that... is speed really that important? I don't mind seeing Itachi speed evidence, however I can't accept Nagato is a slow guy based on the "evidence" I have seen. This is because it involves a pick and choose method, pick Kabuto and Nagato's remark and ignore that Nagato actually did. 

...

But I digress. IronMan is right, it boils down to one side, the side we stand, being stronger than the other. Why? Well Barox, what you're saying is more or less the same as Dr White. That ended up with me constantly asking for evidence.

To adequately kill the "Nagato is fast" argument you need to have an argument which effectively uses _all_ the pages. If you're going to call summons, you need to prove it.
Now remember, emphasis on *all* the evidence:

Nagato's comment
Nagato moving towards Bee with no summon *and* Nagato reacting to Bee
Nagato moving to Naruto
Nagato taking steps away from Naruto
Nagato getting up after he was knocked down
Kabuto's comment

I list those events because I notice a lot of "Nagato can't move/isn't fast" don't consider them all. So, if you want us to consider the notion that Nagato can't move fast, then use all the evidence to make a case. 

I ask the opposition to use all the evidence, because I believe my initial stance is stronger then theirs as all the listed pages fit nicely with my initial stance. So I expect the opposing stance to use all of them, not some of them.


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## Dr. White (Mar 24, 2013)

Munboy I swear you are the most blind debater ever dude. I deductively proved to you why Nagato could not have performed that feat and you keep brushing it aside. You aren't stupid, stp letting bias determine how you view panels man


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 24, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Munboy I swear you are the most blind debater ever dude. I deductively proved to you why Nagato could not have performed that feat and you keep brushing it aside. You aren't stupid, stp letting bias determine how you view panels man



If so then deductively prove it to me again, but do it _concisely_ with more emphasis on what the actual pictures show. 
I've specifically listed the events a case would need to have (see the bullet points in the post above yours) to have a chance at swaying me. In fact I explicitly stated that the criticism I had with a lot of stances were that they didn't consider all the evidence. 

This is all I ask, a concise case which is supported (verbally *and* visually) by the manga.


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## Baroxio (Mar 24, 2013)

Ugh, problem with the quotations in my last post.

But I have said all that I can say on the matter.

I will ask just one question: Do you believe that cripple Nagato is faster than Itachi or no?

Your answer will tell me whether I have wasted my time on a lost cause, or wasted it on a misunderstanding.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 24, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> I will ask just one question: Do you believe that cripple Nagato is faster than Itachi or no?
> 
> Your answer will tell me whether I have wasted my time on a lost cause, or wasted it on a misunderstanding.



You know that prime Nagato is permitted in this thread. 

Bear that in mind and read the controversial part of my initial post:



> Nagato is faster than Itachi given the distance he can cover in a short time; Hanzo agrees it is impressive.
> Additionally given he can move swiftly after hitting a foe with Shinra Tensei, react against a relatively fast opponent using Bijuu power and get to the nine tails without him noticing, something Itachi couldn't do. The latter feats are impressive as this was done with hampered mobility.
> 
> In other words Itachi cannot and will not be able to blitz Nagato as Nagato will be able to adapt to his speed.



If I was asserting a crippled Nagato was faster than Itachi, why would I need to talk about his speed then clearly highlight what feat is performed by his crippled incarnation? 

I'll break it down. Prime Nagato is the Nagato in this thread when I posted that. So I said if he can move like that as a cripple, then it has implications for his prime, the Nagato in this thread.
Show me where I said Nagato is so fast that he will blitz Itachi, much less a where I said a cripple Nagato can do so.

Remember this argument started from proving if Nagato moved to Bee with the chameleon or not.


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## Dr. White (Mar 25, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If so then deductively prove it to me again, but do it _concisely_ with more emphasis on what the actual pictures show.
> I've specifically listed the events a case would need to have (see the bullet points in the post above yours) to have a chance at swaying me. In fact I explicitly stated that the criticism I had with a lot of stances were that they didn't consider all the evidence.
> 
> This is all I ask, a concise case which is supported (verbally *and* visually) by the manga.



Ok I'm gonna try to make this short, concise, and sweet.


We now for fact that Nagato(grey hair) was so withered down from years of using Paths over a distance via Gedo, that he could not move his legs enough to support his body weight: this even as an edo. Hence why Itachi carried him  for most of the way of their journey.

When Kabuto first took over Itachi and used Katon to block LOS, and disorient the Jin duo, notice Itachi was the only one capable of engaging them in CqC. He moved faster than Bee could preceive, and was met mid air by KCM Naruto to exhange blows. The reason Nagato was not doing the same was obviously due to his inability to move fast, and over long distances(this distance no even being close to long).

This is then confirmed by Nagato by him explicitly saying "He could not move much on his own"  : on panel at best he can do is crouch down to summon, and move a couple feet. He is not as healthy as any chunin level ninja, whose shunshin should be > Nagato's moving speed.(NOTE: THIS IS NOT COUNTING SMALL BURST OF A COUPLE FT, OR REACTIONS)

In that same scene(here it is again) Nagato is comically proved wrong by his automatic movements in that he summons a flying summon which enables him "to move". 

Here he is seen standing atop of his flying summon a testament to them being his mode of transport.(also note Itachi blocks Bee's seven sword Assault with a kunai alone, something Nagato could not have accomplished in the same situation)

Here while regenerating we can clearly see Nagato is somewhere amid the forest floor, after taking a tumble down from his flying Bird which was positioned here before being hit with Amaterasu.(near the end of the trees towards the riverbank)

Nagato in seconds after having his intent sensed by Naruto ends up ontop of the canopy of the trees in his summoned chameleon. Noting Nagato's condition highlighted in former chapters it is ldicrous to believe he jumped or shunshined up to the trees. It is proper to deduce he summoned his chameleon and moved swiftly in position to ST.

After being blown at hundreds of miles per hour by ST Bee is sent flying for hundreds of yards. To scale one of those large trees measure in at one unit(one inch) to scale the blast ranges 8X longer(8 units) and is not completely captured on screen. Those trees should scale around 20 feet so the blast should measure around 150-200 ft. 

To boot Nagato could not have travelled through the blast, meaning if he indeed did shunshin he would have had to have curved around the side of the blast radius and got to behind Bee making the job even more difficult. With a flying source he could easily be airlifted over.
There is no way Nagato in crippled version travelled from the source of Bee being blown away to a position behind him in time to shadow him. It is impossible for 99% of the naruto verse, and especially for crippled nagato. We must deduce that Nagato(like he did to get in position to use ST) used the chameleon to "drop in" on Bee(as landing in the chameleon would take more time and be dangerous ).

To deduce that Nagato shunshined from his chameleon to the position behind Bee once again we would have to assume the following:
-Kishi suspended his Nagato's physical disabilities.
and
-Kishi decided to give him a hidden boost of super speed, in contrast to the multiple times he could have used it in the fight but could not.

The burden of proof on your claim(every claim has a burden of proof) must satisfy the conditions as to why Nagato could move at such speeds despite his condition, and why he was gimped physically throughtout the whole fight. I find you'll be hardpressed to do this.

Even after Gaining chakra Nagato is only able to move a couple feet at a time(note his reactions are still top tier, I am arguing speed), even so Naruto is clearly moving dow towards Nagato(he sorta falls right into him. this is no way indicative that he has the speed or movement capabilities anywhere  near Itachi, or the speed needed to shunshin from the chameleon to Bee.

Hopefully it's clear now if not then idk man...idk


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 25, 2013)

> To boot Nagato could not have travelled through the blast, meaning if he indeed did shunshin he would have had to have curved around the side of the blast radius and got to behind Bee making the job even more difficult. With a flying source he could easily be airlifted over.
> There is no way Nagato in crippled version travelled from the source of Bee being blown away to a position behind him in time to shadow him. It is impossible for 99% of the naruto verse, and especially for crippled nagato. We must deduce that Nagato(like he did to get in position to use ST) used the chameleon to "drop in" on Bee(as landing in the chameleon would take more time and be dangerous ).
> 
> To deduce that Nagato shunshined from his chameleon to the position behind Bee once again we would have to assume the following:
> ...



This right here is where the leap of faith occurs. You say Nagato could not have traveled based on the statement. And you say the chameleon must have dropped him in... yet there is no evidence of this. Then what about reacting to Bee and moving to Naruto _without_ the summon?

Kishimoto didn't suspend Nagato's disability, it is only that Nagato's disability was largely misunderstood. I made sure to say he moved in bursts, not he moves around so casually. Kishimoto showed us he can move in bursts, I don't need to prove it. Why? I proved it already when the Bee and Naruto panel.
Yes Nagato took slow steps, but note I said *bursts* in other words as a cripple, he can't move like that so often. 

Next you say Kishi suddenly gave him a super speed boost, well as hard as it is for all of us to fathom: that is exactly what happened. If the chameleon dropped him, we would have seen signs... instead the chameleon was noticeably far from Nagato. Also there's the Bee (reacting) and Naruto conditions to answer. 

Furthermore did you misunderstand my stance? 
I used the cripple Nagato's bursts of speed in my initial post to show how the prime version would move considerably better. Supported by Kabuto who believed mobility would've helped him take his three opponents*.

*Kabuto believes that with his limited knowledge on Nagato (knowing just Rinnegan and nothing like sensory skills) he could've won if he just had mobility.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

This thread permits prime Nagato hence I argue for prime Nagato's speed.
A lot of you who've been here longer know my arguments for cripple Nagato vs Itachi tend to be different from this.


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## LostSelf (Mar 25, 2013)

I wonder where was those levitation and rocket boost skills that Deva and Asura showcased a lot of chapters ago... I mean, even if he didn't use it, we, logically know that Nagato has them. Could he have used them there? Who knows.

And the Chameleon has not displayed such speed feats in the past. I mean, with a summon that moves faster than Itachi's shunshin to never show them and rather let be defeated by Jiraiya is kind of... weird, don't you think?

Another thing is... Nagato having limited movement, fighting two Jiins. Why using the bird summon when you have an invisible and indetectable summon with THAT speed? I bet that an stationary Nagato would've chosen to use the chameleon and not the bird.


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## Mercurial (Mar 25, 2013)

these are actually good points I have to say

as your sign says,"fucking Ironman you type good shit!"


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## Dr. White (Mar 25, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> This right here is where the leap of faith occurs. You say Nagato could not have traveled based on the statement. And you say the chameleon must have dropped him in... yet there is no evidence of this. Then what about reacting to Bee and moving to Naruto _without_ the summon?
> 
> Kishimoto didn't suspend Nagato's disability, it is only that Nagato's disability was largely misunderstood. I made sure to say he moved in bursts, not he moves around so casually. Kishimoto showed us he can move in bursts, I don't need to prove it. Why? I proved it already when the Bee and Naruto panel.
> Yes Nagato took slow steps, but note I said *bursts* in other words as a cripple, he can't move like that so often.
> ...



No, Not at all actually. Faith is believing something without evidence. I just gave you a whole post full of analysis of the scenes in question and deductively proved to you using a 4-6 premise scheme in order to try and connect the dots for you
Premise 1: Nagato could not actively walk or move except for in extremely short burst.
Premise 2: Nagato admitted to such and actively used summons for travelling and to stabilize himself in battle.
Premise 3: Nagato immediately before popping up behind Bee, is seen in his flying chameleon.

Conclusion: Nagato, after St'ing the group, used his chameleon to bypass his extreme physical disabilities to traverse the distance and pop up behind Bee.

*Now on the other hand your stance is completely faith driven*. Which is extremely ironic after calling my position a leap of faith. boot I find it funny how you assess that I am going off of faith with no evidence, yet blatenlty don't reply to most of my post, and then try to explain to me as to why you don't have to fufill your burden of proof. 

You claim Nagato could move as such besides blatant evidence opposing your claim(like for the fact that he could not even walk), and for some reason special plead that in this instance Nagato could traverse hundreds of feet in a second. It is not backed by anything in the manga panels, and is ultimately a result of misinterpretation on your part due to pathos regarding Nagato.

You claim multiple scene were Edo Nagato "uses extreme speed" and fail to realize that *speed =/ Reactions.* Nagato reacted faster than Naruto and Bee allowing him to out maneuver them and use his paths to subdue him. This has nothing to do with movement speed. If Nagato tried to shunshin such would not work(unless you believe some who can't walk, can shunshin in which case we can stop debating here) and would travel a couple feet at best. This was made blatently obvious by the author.

Prime Nagato's best feats scale him at about Jonin-Low Kage level. His best feat is literally dodging Hanzo's underground explosive attack(which once again has more to do with reactions in that situation) in which he still was heavily burnt, Hanzo basically complimented him for not having his lower body split into a billion pieces. It is good hype, but nothing to warrant speed on Itachi's level, hell let alone Kakashi level. 

Yes Crippled Nagato can move in short burst...(about 5 feet max) but traversing hundreds of yards, around the curvature of a massive projectile of force, and beating the thing being projected are two completely different things....The situation of Nagato grabbing Bee and NAruto is no where comparable to moving from the chameleon's mouth to behind Bee...Please tell me I'm misinterpreting this premise here.

Yes, Kishi would have had to suspend his disability and give him super speed, I don't see what your not understanding.* Essentially what you are saying is that a crippled Kid can hit a baseball really far, and be fast enough to immediatly traverse the distance the ball traveled, and end up in position to catch the ball...*Also this occurs in a forest with hundreds of trees do you understand via this analogy why I am completely dumbfounded as to why you believe crippled Nagato(hell let alone any version of Nagato) could accomplish this by means of his physical skill.

@*TheIronMan*


> I wonder where was those levitation and rocket boost skills that Deva and Asura showcased a lot of chapters ago... I mean, even if he didn't use it, we, logically know that Nagato has them. Could he have used them there? Who knows.
> 
> And the Chameleon has not displayed such speed feats in the past. I mean, with a summon that moves faster than Itachi's shunshin to never show them and rather let be defeated by Jiraiya is kind of... weird, don't you think?
> 
> Another thing is... Nagato having limited movement, fighting two Jiins. Why using the bird summon when you have an invisible and indetectable summon with THAT speed? I bet that an stationary Nagato would've chosen to use the chameleon and not the bird.



The rocket skills were never shown capable of propelling an individual body, only removal parts of mecha(ala hands, arms, etc), furthermore the speed is no where near capable via feats. They failed to reach a running chouji(probably the slowest chuunin of Konoha), and gave dying Kakashi enough time to Kamui it. Nagato traversed that distance very quickly, and I highly doubt Nagato would have downgraded his paths to approach Bee(as we seem him appoach Bee in base)

It doesn't matter....Only two things do really...
A.) We know the chameleon can fly, and that Nagato was using Summons to travel.
B.) We know Nagato couldn't move and needed assistance walking.

These factors alone lead one to conclude that Nagato(who was seen in the chameleon's mouth a panel before) travelled via summon, and not via shunshin.

Lol I love how you are willing to poke holes at the chameloen logic, because it "lacks speed feats" yet you would be willing to believe that Nagato possibly shunshined the distance(goes against canon), or possibly rocketed over(no canon backing or the slightest shred of hint for this conclusion). I feel like I am the only being objective here.

Chameleon's invisibility is only really effective for sneak attacks, and camping(for use of double vision). It would be extremely unpractical for Nagato be zipping by in his chameloen all fight, even in his bird he remained suspended in air remaining relatively still. It was obvious that Nagato had to get close so that he could soul rip the Jins, how else would one soul rip? From the sky?

Furthermore by your logic: if Nagato had the ability to move hundreds of feet in a secon via shunshin or rockets, why didn't he use this speed to fight both perfect Jins? Surely this would have came in handy earlier. I wonder why only Itachi bravely engaged both of them in CQC? Surely he could pefrom the same feats without the distraction of ST(unless you think that particular technique is what got him behind Bee in which case I'd question your logic), so why didn't he?

Observing this phenomenoa from almost any angle it is clear, and bright as day blatent that Nagato used his chameleon.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 25, 2013)

No, the leap of faith was assuming the chameleon took Naruto to Bee without then telling me why he was able to react to Bee and move to Naruto respectably fast for his state.

No matter how much we'll debate and debate it comes down to this:
I have evidence Nagato got there without the chameleon and you don't. 

The only way to get out of this lock is for you to support your entirely theoretical analysis with the pages. As stop with the what we must suspend and actually look at the page and point out the obvious thing here. Point out in the page that the chameleon (his source of mobility) transported Nagato to Bee.

This assertion also fails because Nagato reacted to V2 Bee, which should not have been possible by your logic as he relied on the chameleon to move.


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## Dr. White (Mar 25, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> No, the leap of faith was assuming the chameleon took Naruto to Bee without then telling me why he was able to react to Bee and move to Naruto respectably fast for his state.
> 
> No matter how much we'll debate and debate it comes down to this:
> I have evidence Nagato got there without the chameleon and you don't.
> ...



Once again fail to actually read my post as I have addressed your contention. Nagato was able to react to KCM Naruto because his reactions are not debilitated by his body's condition. Ngato was able to out maneuver Naruto by using his path hands, and then via his summons and shared visions saw Bee's sneak attack and countered him with another path. Nothing he did in those panels warrants him significant speed feats, especially since he is a sensor, being able to actively tell that Bee was going into V2, and that KCM Naruto was charging in. This does nothing to add to your case as you are committing the equivocation fallacy of comparing speed to reactions. I addressed this same point like 5 times. 

No we don't have to stop, my assertions are being supported with manga scans and in depth analysis of the context of what is happening(me linking causal relationships such as Nagato's inability to move as a reason why Nagato could not have performed the feat.) around said scans. Using deductive reasoning we can clearly see what is being depicted in panels.Your argument hinges on suspension of belief(special pleading) and extreme stretching of minute details to try and enhance an otherwise extremely weak case.

No, once again I am not arguing that Nagato *cannot move at all*, it was clear he was capable of moving a few feet at a time in isolated short burst. Against Bee all he did was literally back up from sensing the immense chakra build up, *he still got hit with the lariat* . If Nagato was capable of the extremely speedy feat of shunshin'ing from the chameleon to behind Bee in a second or two, then why couldn't he dodge the lariat? Moving 5 feet and reacting to someone, is completely different than physicaly traversing a disance of hundreds of yards in a second. *Also note Bee was not actively attacking, just transforming into Bjuu Mode and bracing for the Lariat.* 

 Nothing Nagato did as an Edo warrants him being able to pull off such a feat, and until you provide such evidence, deduction, common sense, and general literacy enable to figure that he travelled via his summon.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 25, 2013)

I read your post, but I told you what it comes down to. I can't be persuaded by theory unless I actually see any real signs of the chameleon moving Nagato. I say Nagato used Shunshin and the panels support it (no chameleon around).

It really is my word against yours. Mine has a page with clear indicators, yours doesn't.

You can rationalise your stance any way you like but this is what it will always boil down to. The only possible way to move forward is a page on your part, Dr White.


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## Dr. White (Mar 25, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I read your post, but I told you what it comes down to. I can't be persuaded by theory unless I actually see any real signs of the chameleon moving Nagato. I say Nagato used Shunshin and the panels support it (no chameleon around).
> 
> It really is my word against yours. Mine has a page with clear indicators, yours doesn't.
> 
> You can rationalise your stance any way you like but this is what it will always boil down to. The only possible way to move forward is a page on your part, Dr White.



No you are being intellectually dishonest here, there is no "your word" vs "my word" scenario going on here. There is what actually occured in the manga which Kishi drew, and there isn't what happened. Once again you are simply sitting here and denying my logical arguments and accusations of logical fallacies on your part and resorting to this trick of "well no one can be truly right, and only scans can tell us what happened" when in reality that isn't how we go about deciding things. I'm not rationalizing anything, I am being skeptical of your claim and refuting you with logic because your premises don't hold up(like how you still refuse to acknowledge Reactions =/ speed) You can't just make up your own claims and then try and pass them off as rationally justified until proven wrong, that isn't how logic works. You must provide actual evidence for your claims(the stuff I refuted time and time again) and when that falls short you must admit your position is inherently illogical or that is not rationally justifiable to believe in(e.g claiming Nagato shunshin'ed hundreds of feet diagonally around the curvature of a blast big enough to demolish a good portion of the woods, while cripple.)

My position on the other hand is rationally justified as it coincides with things, and context that happened in the manga(Nagato being crippled, using summons as transportation, being in the mouth of the flying chameleon before traversing the distance to behind Bee, etc) which act as evidence for my conclusion. When we scale both arguments, you have absolutely no case here except for this argument from ignorance and misinterpretation.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 25, 2013)

This is over the fifth time I told you: you're only going to convince me with a page actually supporting your point that the chameleon moved Nagato. 

Without that your stance isn't strong enough to just sway me.


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## LostSelf (Mar 25, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> @*TheIronMan*
> 
> The rocket skills were never shown capable of propelling an individual body, only removal parts of mecha(ala hands, arms, etc), furthermore the speed is no where near capable via feats.



Asura used them against Tsunade.



> They failed to reach a running chouji(probably the slowest chuunin of Konoha), and gave dying Kakashi enough time to Kamui it. Nagato traversed that distance very quickly, and I highly doubt Nagato would have downgraded his paths to approach Bee(as we seem him appoach Bee in base)



Chouji escaped because Kakashi used Kamui on the missil. And that doesn't make it slow since by the time, Kakashi's Kamui was quite fast. Even before the Pain arc.



> It doesn't matter....Only two things do really...
> 
> A.) We know the chameleon can fly, and that Nagato was using Summons to travel.



If the chameleon can fly, then it fly faster than Itachi's shunshin and still was hit by Jiraiya? And if it flies so fast, why use the bird when you have an invisible, flying and much faster summon?



> B.) We know Nagato couldn't move and needed assistance walking.



That's contradicted here.



> These factors alone lead one to conclude that Nagato(who was seen in the chameleon's mouth a panel before) travelled via summon, and not via shunshin.



Then his chameleon threw a man that couldn't hold on his feet at high speed and he landed perfectly?



> Lol I love how you are willing to poke holes at the chameloen logic, because it "lacks speed feats" yet you would be willing to believe that Nagato possibly shunshined the distance(goes against canon), or possibly rocketed over(no canon backing or the slightest shred of hint for this conclusion). I feel like I am the only being objective here.


I don't know, we never saw the chameleon moving at that speed, never, not even in this panel. In Jiraiya's fight it couldn't dodge Jiraiya's attack and was killed, but here it moves that freaking fast? I find this weird.



> Chameleon's invisibility is only really effective for sneak attacks, and camping(for use of double vision). It would be extremely unpractical for Nagato be zipping by in his chameloen all fight, even in his bird he remained suspended in air remaining relatively still. It was obvious that Nagato had to get close so that he could soul rip the Jins, how else would one soul rip? From the sky?



Nagato had to get close to take Naruto and Bee's souls in perfect condition to revive them later. He could've soul ripped Bee right there if he wanted to. Now, a creature that flies, again, faster than Itachi, is invisible and indetectable, is only used for sneak attacks and is not better than the bird? And i'm not being objetive... .



> Furthermore by your logic: if Nagato had the ability to move hundreds of feet in a secon via shunshin or rockets, why didn't he use this speed to fight both perfect Jins? Surely this would have came in handy earlier. I wonder why only Itachi bravely engaged both of them in CQC? Surely he could pefrom the same feats without the distraction of ST(unless you think that particular technique is what got him behind Bee in which case I'd question your logic), so why didn't he?



I guess he used them and had Naruto nad Bee at his mercy. And probably because Nagato was the one in control and couldn't move much? Not moving much has nothing to do with being stationary.



> Observing this phenomenoa from almost any angle it is clear, and bright as day blatent that Nagato used his chameleon.



I'm not so sure. And even if that's the case, we still have an invisible creature way faster than Itachi.


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## Dr. White (Mar 25, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Asura used them against Tsunade.
> 
> I admit I Hadn't seen that before Regardless that blitz happened fairly close to Tsunade with clear LOS, and nothing but air in between them. I will explain later in the post as to why they wouldn't even be able to accomplish such.
> 
> ...


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## LostSelf (Mar 25, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> TheIronMan said:
> 
> 
> > Asura used them against Tsunade.
> ...


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## Joakim3 (Mar 25, 2013)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Is there a reason Genjutsu or Tsukuyomi won't work or "BT+path combo" on Nagato?



Because logically he should be capable of breaking both as he has a _Rin'negan_ + high level genjustu feats + a uzumaki body

Oh and the fact he can close his eyes and fight through his Summons/_Pein Rikudo_ shared vision making visual genjustu a virtual impossibility


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