# Itachi VS Pain



## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 29, 2018)

Rules:

Distance: 70 m

Location: Naruto VS Pain

Intent: KI

Intel: All

Versions: Itachi Edo with no regeneration

Thoughts?


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## ARGUS (Jun 29, 2018)

CT one shots 
Pein wins this

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 29, 2018)

ARGUS said:


> CT one shots
> Pein wins this


Cant he seal Pain before the rocks buildup on the core?

That's an extreme possibility


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## Buuhan (Jun 29, 2018)

Itachi dies in an open field. 
Fighting the paths of Pain 1v1 in an open location is a death sentence for a lot of shinobi. Getting rid of a majority of the paths doesn't always work either since allowing Deva to channel too much power can be detrimental. 
Since Itachi is an edo he would have an easier time stamina wise, but i see Pain eventually taking the win.


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## Bonly (Jun 29, 2018)

Pain outlast or overwhelms Itachi

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 29, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Itachi dies in an open field.
> Fighting the paths of Pain 1v1 in an open location is a death sentence for a lot of shinobi. Getting rid of a majority of the paths doesn't always work either since allowing Deva to channel too much power can be detrimental.
> Since Itachi is an edo he would have an easier time stamina wise, but i see Pain eventually taking the win.


What about the Yata? 

He can reflect the force back



Maverick04 said:


> Full intel?? Naraka and Animal path are first to go..Just to get rid of the nuisance of revival and summons..Amaterasu should do the trick..They wont be able to dodge it..As a matter of fact none of the paths, besides maybe Preta Path can survive Amaterasu..Maybe even Tendo coz ST..But since ST has the 5 seconds time limit, thats more than enough time to cover him up completely..Rinnegan linked eyesight can be dealt with by shuriken jutsu..Itachi has top tier shuriken jutsu and can use it with pinpoint accuracy..The more eyes he destroys the better chance of victory he has..Also since Itachi has full knowledge, he would prevent Tendo from getting near Nagato for CT..If visual genjutsu works on the paths then its gonna be even easier..Nothing short of CT (or maybe even CST if Nagato is ready to shorten his life even more) is getting rid of Itachi..With full knowledge Itachi can most definitely pull off a win..He's smarter than Nagato and would be able to predict the next move with the knowledge he has..He has been shown to be able to plan entire battles step by step on his own..CT or bust for Pain


Will he keep up with Itachi's speed?

He was blitzing bee left and right


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 29, 2018)

Bonly said:


> Pain outlast or overwhelms Itachi


Cant yasaka break the core,

Before it builds? He could spam them if one is not enough


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## Blu-ray (Jun 29, 2018)

The unlimited stamina does wonders for Itachi, but he's still shit outta luck when Chibaku Tensei comes out.



Bonly said:


> Pain outlast


He's still an Edo though, just without the regeneration. Should still have the unlimited stamina.


Sage light said:


> Cant yasaka break the core,
> 
> Before it builds?


No.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 29, 2018)

Pain stomps as every unrestricted Itachi vs Pain match goes.

BT + all the paths destroys Itachi. Though, I'm expecting to hear how Itachi can do something in a scenario that SM Naruto couldn't.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Buuhan (Jun 29, 2018)

Sage light said:


> What about the Yata?
> 
> He can reflect the force back


Won't save him from CT


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 29, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Won't save him from CT


 TIL Yata>Gravity which is why Itachi decided to use it to save Naruto and Bee from CT.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 1


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 29, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> The unlimited stamina does wonders for Itachi, but he's still shit outta luck when Chibaku Tensei comes out.
> 
> 
> He's still an Edo though, just without the regeneration. Should still have the unlimited stamina.
> ...


I mean cant he bust it before the stones build up around the orb?

Like the Orb do not have any notable durability feats


Buuhan said:


> Won't save him from CT


Im sure Itachi said the Orb had a strong gravitational-pull


So cant he reflect force back so it'll self destruct?

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 29, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> TIL Yata>Gravity which is why Itachi decided to use it to save Naruto and Bee from CT.


Just like he did not attempt it against Kabuto

Dude doesnt like showing off his abilities


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## ThomasTheCat (Jun 29, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Im sure Itachi said the Orb had a strong gravitational-pull
> 
> 
> So cant he reflect force back so it'll self destruct?



Are you literally saying that Itachi can reflect GRAVITY? Is that how far your wank goes?

Reactions: Like 5


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 29, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Just like he did not attempt it against Kabuto
> 
> Dude doesnt like showing off his abilities



Kabuto had Senjutsu which isn't among in the list of things that Yata automatically defends against along with sound.

Oh and I also learnt that Totsuka can seal CT which is why Itachi saved the trio from CT by sealing the core.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Trojan (Jun 29, 2018)

From feats/abilities standpoint Pain wins low to mid difficulty at worst. 
If the battle were to happen in the manga tho, I don't see Kishi allowing Pain to win against itachi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 29, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Are you literally saying that Itachi can reflect GRAVITY? Is that how far your wank goes?


Why not?

Gravity is a physical force which come under the type of substance Yata reflect


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kabuto had Senjutsu which isn't among in the list of things that Yata automatically defends against along with sound.
> 
> Oh and I also learnt that Totsuka can seal CT which is why Itachi saved the trio from CT by sealing the core.


Senjutsu is Physical

Unless you wanna say it phases through walls? Doesn't matter as Intangible substances also come under the record of substances blocked by Yata. Sound comes under record


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 29, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Senjutsu is Physical
> 
> Unless you wanna say it phases through walls? Doesn't matter as Intangible substances also come under the record of substances blocked by Yata. Sound comes under record



It is its own class of jutsu as per the databooks and manga.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 29, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It is its own class of jutsu as per the databooks and manga.


Well

That is not ample proof when you're making such a huge claim


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## JuicyG (Jun 29, 2018)

Pain wins

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 29, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Pain wins


Explain

Ct reflected by Yata
ST reflected by Yata
BT reflected by Yata
Ashura laser reflected by Yata
Outlasting is not an option he currently an Edo


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 29, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Well
> 
> That is not ample proof when you're making such a huge claim



That's more than enough... just not enough for the dude fabricating his own continuities.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## JuicyG (Jun 29, 2018)

@Maverick04 score board


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## Maverick04 (Jun 29, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> @Maverick04 score board


What about it?? Your explanation was funny and insightful

Reactions: Like 1


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## JuicyG (Jun 29, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Explain
> 
> Ct reflected by Yata
> ST reflected by Yata
> ...



Wanking YT to the max


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## JuicyG (Jun 29, 2018)

Maverick04 said:


> What about it?? Your explanation was funny and insightful



Score board is insightful enough. 

Not giving the obvious explanation to this fight while on the phone right now.


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## Maverick04 (Jun 29, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Score board is insightful enough.
> 
> Not giving the obvious explanation to this fight while on the phone right now.


So a bunch of people agreeing on the same thing makes it right?? Good to know..Please do give your explanation..Im sure we are gonna learn a lot from it

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 29, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Wanking YT to the max


Yata reflected Kusanagi Sword

That cannonically penetrated Naruto BM. So Im not wanking it. Going strictly by feat. Even then Itachi can win

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ThomasTheCat (Jun 29, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Why not?
> 
> Gravity is a physical force which come under the type of substance Yata reflect





Thank you for blessing my sig quotes. I believe more than half of them are by you alone


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 29, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Thank you for blessing my sig quotes. I believe more than half of them are by you alone



Have you tried clicking the spoiler tag in your sig containing your "Collection Of Interesting Quotes" ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## ThomasTheCat (Jun 29, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Have you tried clicking the spoiler tag in your sig containing your "Collection Of Interesting Quotes" ?



I fixed it lol


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 29, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Thank you for blessing my sig quotes. I believe more than half of them are by you alone


ST is force 

Yata cannonically explained to be a reflecter reflecting all type of attack, plus all attack-type lose significance VS it like DB imply. Please point out where I said something not fact


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## ThomasTheCat (Jun 29, 2018)

Sage light said:


> ST is force
> 
> Yata cannonically explained to be a reflecter reflecting all type of attack, plus all attack-type lose significance VS it like DB imply. Please point out where I said something not fact



You said YM could reflect gravity. Nowhere is this even remotely pointed out. If it was true Itachi would have negged CT during the fight with Nagato. He didn't though, insinuating that YM is helpess against gravity.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 29, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> You said YM could reflect gravity. Nowhere is this even remotely pointed out. If it was true Itachi would have negged CT during the fight with Nagato. He didn't though, insinuating that YM is helpess against gravity.


Well

Itachi character is based on holding back. You cant expect him to reflect ct when his main motto being "you'll absolutely fail if you do everything on your own"

Not to mention ct have nowhere near as much hype as Yata. Naruto is one verse where hype is everything ct not having comparable hype essentially mean its not equivalent in power.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## JuicyG (Jun 29, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Well
> 
> Itachi character is based on holding back. You cant expect him to reflect ct when his main motto being "you'll absolutely fail if you do everything on your own"
> 
> Not to mention ct have nowhere near as much hype as Yata. Naruto is one verse where hype is everything ct not having comparable hype essentially mean its not equivalent in power.



This explains nothing.


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## Gohara (Jun 29, 2018)

Itachi's character wins that match up in my opinion.  Even assuming that visual genjutsu wouldn't work which is unknown and excluding kotoamatsukami Itachi's character can use Izanami which is arguably basically an automatic victory against almost any character and/or have the paths version of Nagato expend most of his Chakra with Izanagi.  Itachi's character also has superior portrayal I would argue because of significantly superior portrayal to Orochimaru.  Whereas Jiraiya is a legendary sannin and is capable of matching up on par with the paths version of Nagato.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Ghost Of The Uchiha (Jun 29, 2018)

CT and CST one shot once they're out.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jun 29, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Versions: Itachi Edo with no regeneration


Doesnt matter really...Even giving Itachi regen hed still lose

Pain can counter edos regen with his black rods or with Ningendo or Narakas souls magic or with Devas CT which is a fuinjutsu

Meaning 3 paths actually have unique and effective means of fighting edos with their actual individual Jutsu, and all 6 paths have something that works on an edo because of the black rods that they can all employ

Pain also operates on a higher level than Itachi does anyway, so these strategies are more than likely to occur 


Sage light said:


> Ct reflected by Yata


Sweet Jesus...

Google what a "No limits Fallacy" is and why you SHOULDNT use them


Sage light said:


> ST reflected by Yata


A weaker one can be BLOCKED by Yata yes, i agree

Weaker STs can be withstood by base Shinobi...Refer to Kakashi

But a CST level one or a Gama trio level one is doing work to Itachis susanoo

Yata or no


Sage light said:


> BT reflected by Yata


Uhhh

Not how it works

BT can be used as a targeted attack that affects ONLY the target...Not its surroundings... 

Yeah exactly

Yata isnt reflecting Gravity


Sage light said:


> Ashura laser reflected by Yata


I can give you this one as well as the lasers are hardly that impressive 


Sage light said:


> Outlasting is not an option he currently an Edo


It doesnt need to be

Pain simply overpowers him and has ways around Edo regen

Itachi still loses


Sage light said:


> Yata reflected Kusanagi Sword
> 
> That cannonically penetrated Naruto BM


This never happened...

Assuming you are referencing Sasukes Katana piercing Naruto as an Adult...


...Not outside of it...So the sword didnt penetrate shit
Sasukes sword that he uses as an Adult is NOT KUSANAGI......So its feats arent transferable to Kusanagi anyway
Sasukes sword that he uses as a teen is ALSO not Kusanagi...As it ALSO doesnt extend or levitate
...Let alone BMs...Meaning even IF Sasukes katana got through a BM avatar...Thats an outlier
Yata reflecting Sasukes Katana doesnt mean shit to its reflective ability 

...It blocks them but they arent reflected whatsoever

Thats tangible limit we have to work with in terms of its reflective powers

And Hydra is IMMENSELY weaker than CT or CST


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## ThomasTheCat (Jun 29, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Itachi character is based on holding back.


You can't use that for literally every time you're wrong about a limit Itachi has, which you've been doing.


Sage light said:


> You cant expect him to reflect ct when his main motto being "you'll absolutely fail if you do everything on your own"


I really can expect him to do that because he would be giving Bee and Naruto a bit of time to relax/go for Nagato, not to mention is nigh endless energy in Edo which makes bringing out Susano'o easy as hell, and the fact that he had no reason to hold back against Nagato.


Sage light said:


> Not to mention ct have nowhere near as much hype as Yata. Naruto is one verse where hype is everything ct not having comparable hype essentially mean its not equivalent in power.


That's hilarious. That's actually amazing. I can accept people saying feats < hype, but blatantly ignoring how strong a technique is because it "helps" your argument is just pathetic. When facts, otherwise known as feats, are thrown in your face and you ignore them because "lol hype", you look ridiculous. Of course, you won't think so because you can't accept that you've made a mistake. I call myself a dumabass all the time because I make mistakes all the time. 

Please, just take a moment to think about how YM reflects gravity. Try to picture that. The entire planet would get fucked over if that was possible, which you have yet to prove anyway.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 29, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> I fixed it lol


 Sig limit doesn't let it show.


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## ThomasTheCat (Jun 29, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sig limit doesn't let it show.



I thought you were referencing my double button...

I can see it fine, as well as the other sigs with walls of text. I think it depends on the style you have on for the site.


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## narut0ninjafan (Jun 29, 2018)

Pain wins, he's too powerful for Itachi to handle when unrestricted


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 29, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> I thought you were referencing my double button...
> 
> I can see it fine, as well as the other sigs with walls of text. I think it depends on the style you have on for the site.



Only the Allure skin lets you see it.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## ARGUS (Jun 29, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Cant he seal Pain before the rocks buildup on the core?
> 
> That's an extreme possibility


Nope because that would only happen once the core is busted which he canonically can’t do on his own 

Deva would repel totsuka anyway


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## Mr Dicklesworth (Jun 29, 2018)

Ok, Yata reflects CT. Then Preta absorbs the Susanoo and Itachi gets gangraped. GG

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 30, 2018)

Itachi gets the team rocket treatment here. Ym is doing shit here if Pain uses Bt and Repels him.


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## savior2005 (Jun 30, 2018)

Pain wins low-mid diff. He can easily incapacitate Itachi with Chakra Rods, CT, or simply take Itachi's soul. Dealing with the 6 paths is too much for Itachi, edo or not.


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## Buuhan (Jun 30, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> I thought you were referencing my double button...
> 
> I can see it fine, as well as the other sigs with walls of text. I think it depends on the style you have on for the site.


Tom long time no see bro

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 30, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> This explains nothing.


He'd contradict philosophy basically


ThomasTheCat said:


> You can't use that for literally every time you're wrong about a limit Itachi has, which you've been doing.


Because that is misconceptually attributed limit. Inspite canon portrayal stating otherwise


> I really can expect him to do that because he would be giving Bee and Naruto a bit of time to relax/go for Nagato, not to mention is nigh endless energy in Edo which makes bringing out Susano'o easy as hell, and the fact that he had no reason to hold back against Nagato.


You'd be right if character is ignored

Character is an essential part dictating certain character feat. His philosophy revolve around not accomplishing everything alone. Had he broken ct he'd be hypocritically contradicting the "dont do alone" part. Blatant narrative conveyed through panel


> That's hilarious. That's actually amazing. I can accept people saying feats < hype, but blatantly ignoring how strong a technique is because it "helps" your argument is just pathetic. When facts, otherwise known as feats, are thrown in your face and you ignore them because "lol hype", you look ridiculous. Of course, you won't think so because you can't accept that you've made a mistake. I call myself a dumabass all the time because I make mistakes all the time.


Im not ignoring ct power

Im extrapolating on why certain attributed limit dont input logic or compare feat with portrayal which is termed "biased feat interpretation". portrayal dictate Mirror being far above inferiorly hyped force


> Please, just take a moment to think about how YM reflects gravity. Try to picture that. The entire planet would get fucked over if that was possible, which you have yet to prove anyway.


That'd have been a problem if Mirror had been in containment of villain character but Itachi let his arch-enemy escape with one hand

He do not have intention of wrecking planet factually. Do not mean it do not have deflection power to do such


ARGUS said:


> Nope because that would only happen once the core is busted which he canonically can’t do on his own
> 
> Deva would repel totsuka anyway


Yasaka had been thrown when ct had build up already

Had they thrown before build up possibility of prying core'd have increased 98%


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## ThomasTheCat (Jun 30, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Tom long time no see bro


Been busy with summer schoolwork and meeting friends. Summer is a lot less chill than I'd like it to be... Hopefully I can be a bit more active now


Sage light said:


> Because that is misconceptually attributed limit. Inspite canon portrayal stating otherwise


The only misconceptions are your own because you take everything Itachi says and twist it around into some mangled extra meaning. You said that a fucking finger Genjutsu would neg Madara of all people. The same Genjutsu that was only shown to neg a very inexperienced Naruto. I can't even remember what BS you brought up to try and defend that one.


Sage light said:


> Character is an essential part dictating certain character feat. His philosophy revolve around not accomplishing everything alone. Had he broken ct he'd be hypocritically contradicting the "dont do alone" part. Blatant narrative conveyed through panel


Oh yes, because keeping one's philosophy when one's village is at stake is ever so important. By taking on CT alone, he would leave his _team_ an opening to get Nagato. Instead, he essentially negged Nagato and sealed him himself. The only thing Bee and Naruto did was get themselves in danger and help break CT, which Itachi was clearly incapable of doing.


Sage light said:


> Im not ignoring ct power


Yes, you really are.


Sage light said:


> Im extrapolating on why certain attributed limit dont input logic or compare feat with portrayal which is termed "biased feat interpretation". portrayal dictate Mirror being far above inferiorly hyped force


You're taking this massive hype shield that had all of one effective showing, and turning it into this shield that can do anything because hype. There's something called a no limit's fallacy, which has already been pointed out to you, which you are still ignoring. It's ridiculous to claim that a shield with no high tier showing can reflect goddamn gravity. Your argument is based on hope and speculation, while the opposition has much sturdier claims.


Sage light said:


> That'd have been a problem if Mirror had been in containment of villain character but Itachi let his arch-enemy escape with one hand


What does it matter if the YM was used by a villain? It still can't do jack to gravity


Sage light said:


> He do not have intention of wrecking planet factually. Do not mean it do not have deflection power to do such


Oh, of course, let's just make an excuse so we don't have to defend our absurd claim. Genius.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 30, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> The only misconceptions are your own because you take everything Itachi says and twist it around into some mangled extra meaning. You said that a fucking finger Genjutsu would neg Madara of all people. The same Genjutsu that was only shown to neg a very inexperienced Naruto. I can't even remember what BS you brought up to try and defend that one.


Finger gen is underrated


> Oh yes, because keeping one's philosophy when one's village is at stake is ever so important. By taking on CT alone, he would leave his _team_ an opening to get Nagato. Instead, he essentially negged Nagato and sealed him himself. The only thing Bee and Naruto did was get themselves in danger and help break CT, which Itachi was clearly incapable of doing.


Naruto bee were negged by Nagato

He saw them incapable of attacking effectively. Hence acted like he needed help from them, carrying on master plan to protect (them) at same time


> You're taking this massive hype shield that had all of one effective showing, and turning it into this shield that can do anything because hype. There's something called a no limit's fallacy, which has already been pointed out to you, which you are still ignoring. It's ridiculous to claim that a shield with no high tier showing can reflect goddamn gravity. Your argument is based on hope and speculation, while the opposition has much sturdier claims.


Im not basing argument off hope speculation

Im conjuring relateable narrative advocating fact in misconception-clearing manner. It had feat plus feat was admirably excellent revelation. Reflected kussanagi same blade cut through Rikudo madara, toughest dude on earth


> What does it matter if the YM was used by a villain? It still can't do jack to gravity


Oro, excellent earthly villain on earth seeked Mirror Yata

He weighed it above all other power in world (Rinnegan, Mokuton, Edo Ressurection)


> Oh, of course, let's just make an excuse so we don't have to defend our absurd claim. Genius.


I've proven substantial claim I've stated prior exploiting Manga loop-hole


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## Mawt (Jun 30, 2018)

No regeneration equals Pain's win.


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## ARGUS (Jul 1, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Yasaka had been thrown when ct had build up already
> 
> Had they thrown before build up possibility of prying core'd have increased 98%


Correction, 
Yasaka, TBB and FRS were thrown together to bust the CT core 
TBB >> FRS >>>>>>>> Yasaka  

so the idea that itachi could even dent the core before it develops and traps him in is completely unlikely


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## Sapherosth (Jul 1, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Are you literally saying that Itachi can reflect GRAVITY? Is that how far your wank goes?




Yata Mirror reflects the rocks that flies towards it. Yata Mirror has already showed us what it does. 

A simple scenario would be Susano reaches the CT but the incoming rocks that were supposed to hold Susano onto the core would not be able to hold it because Yata Mirror would just continue reflecting it. No matter how strong the gravitational pull is, the rocks would just get bounced back even harder.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Sapherosth (Jul 1, 2018)

ARGUS said:


> Correction,
> Yasaka, TBB and FRS were thrown together to bust the CT core
> *TBB >> FRS >>>>>>>> Yasaka*
> 
> so the idea that itachi could even dent the core before it develops and traps him in is completely unlikely



Yasaka has far more penetrative blunt force than both of those. The durability of the core itself is essentially unknown. 

The other option could be Itachi jumping towards the core itself and cut it using his Tosuka sword that can freely extend its reach.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## hbcaptain (Jul 1, 2018)

Itachi wins under these stipulations.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 1, 2018)

LMAO.... The itachi Fanboys are crawling out again... With even more ridiculous claims and Rip logic.


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## ThomasTheCat (Jul 1, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Yata Mirror reflects the rocks that flies towards it. Yata Mirror has already showed us what it does.
> 
> A simple scenario would be Susano reaches the CT but the incoming rocks that were supposed to hold Susano onto the core would not be able to hold it because Yata Mirror would just continue reflecting it. No matter how strong the gravitational pull is, the rocks would just get bounced back even harder.



Okay. So then Itachi is stuck in a ball of graity with rocks pelting him from behind because YM is not omnidirectional. Cool. What does Itachi do then? Sit and hope nothing bad happens while rocks are smashing into his Susano'o, leaving his back very vulnerable? Gotcha


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 1, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Okay. So then Itachi is stuck in a ball of graity with rocks pelting him from behind because YM is not omnidirectional. Cool. What does Itachi do then? Sit and hope nothing bad happens while rocks are smashing into his Susano'o, leaving his back very vulnerable? Gotcha



When it comes to Itachi, several details will be missed.


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## Mawt (Jul 1, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Yata reflected Kusanagi Sword
> 
> That cannonically penetrated Naruto BM. So Im not wanking it. Going strictly by feat. Even then Itachi can win


Wow. The Yata blocked a Kusanagi Blade by an out of Chakra fodder Hebi Sasuke. Nice feat. Wasn't Naruto's BM penetrated by a Rikudou Sasuke? Also, by the logic of ignoring the form of the character, I guess that the Executioner Blade has higher durability than Juubi Jins considering Kusanagi was unable to cut through it, yet it sliced through Juubidara like butter. 

The Yata being stated to be able to negate any attack doesn't prove it can. You know what was also stated? Pain was the strongest member of the Akatsuki.


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## ThomasTheCat (Jul 2, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> Wow. The Yata blocked a Kusanagi Blade by an out of Chakra fodder Hebi Sasuke. Nice feat. Wasn't Naruto's BM penetrated by a Rikudou Sasuke? Also, by the logic of ignoring the form of the character, I guess that the Executioner Blade has higher durability than Juubi Jins considering Kusanagi was unable to cut through it, yet it sliced through Juubidara like butter.
> 
> The Yata being stated to be able to negate any attack doesn't prove it can. You know what was also stated? Pain was the strongest member of the Akatsuki.



I can't tell if your username is supposed to be memery, or if you're an Itachi fan that doesn't wank him to high hell


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## Mawt (Jul 2, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> I can't tell if your username is supposed to be memery, or if you're an Itachi fan that doesn't wank him to high hell


It's both. I do like Itachi. I don't like downplaying him or wanking him. Name is partially memery.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mr Dicklesworth (Jul 2, 2018)

I don’t get why people are literally only mentioning Deva Path for stuff Itachi can counter. You do realize Pain has 5 other extremely lethal abilities right?

Even if Itachi managed to block CT (which makes no sense in its own right since it’s a fucking gravitational pull) how is he gonna avoid getting flanked by Animal Paths 5 boss level summons from behind, as well as Asura paths missiles.

Hell, preta’s ability is to absorb all chakra based attacks. Guess what that means? The precious Susanoo and Amaterasu Itachi fans love to wank are getting absorbed. Literally all of his large scale moves get countered by Preta.

Genjutsu is useless also, since the Pains could just break each other out of it, and Rinnegan already is a natural MS counter.

Itachi is not winning this. The wank needs to stop

Reactions: Like 2


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## Troyse22 (Jul 3, 2018)

Mr Dicklesworth said:


> gonna avoid getting flanked by Animal Paths 5 boss level summons from behind,



Because animals summons are good at flanking right?



Mr Dicklesworth said:


> as well as Asura paths missiles.



Susanoo



Mr Dicklesworth said:


> The precious Susanoo



Preta would have to get close, which I don't see as feasible



Mr Dicklesworth said:


> Literally all of his large scale moves get countered by Preta.



He can also casually defeat Preta



Mr Dicklesworth said:


> Genjutsu is useless also, since the Pains could just break each other out of it, and Rinnegan already is a natural MS counter.



Peins Rinnegan are projections, not actual Rinnegan, they are not a natural MS counter
The Rinnegan itself is (for example if this was Nagato himself) but the paths are not.

And they couldn't break out of Jiraiya's genjutsu.


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## Sapherosth (Jul 3, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Okay. So then Itachi is stuck in a ball of graity with rocks pelting him from behind because YM is not omnidirectional. Cool. What does Itachi do then? Sit and hope nothing bad happens while rocks are smashing into his Susano'o, leaving his back very vulnerable? Gotcha



Obviously the core loses its gravitational pull afterwards, which was how 8 tails Naruto was able to escape afterwards. Considering the fact that CT from Sasuke couldn't even "kill" or even remotely damage any bijuu's, it's hard to imagine it breaking V4 Susano with the spiritual weapons.  





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> When it comes to Itachi, several details will be missed.



Common sense to connect the dots should suffice. But then again, the IQ level of most people in this forum are questionable.


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## Troyse22 (Jul 3, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Obviously the core loses its gravitational pull afterwards



If that were true then the rocks wouldn't hold around it

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Jul 3, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> If that were true then the rocks wouldn't hold around it



If what i said wasn't true, then it would never stop collecting more.


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## Troyse22 (Jul 3, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> If what i said wasn't true, then it would never stop collecting more.



So you're saying that the rocks just become naturally light and stay floating in the sky despite no outside (or rather inside) force influencing them?

Seems stupid to me tbh

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 3, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Common sense to connect the dots should suffice. But then again, the IQ level of most people in this forum are questionable.



Sadly, this isn't prevalent and with Itachi threads it tends to be heightened with the view of making Itachi seem more capable or stronger than he actually was.

Reactions: Like 3


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## ThomasTheCat (Jul 3, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Obviously the core loses its gravitational pull afterwards, which was how 8 tails Naruto was able to escape afterwards. Considering the fact that CT from Sasuke couldn't even "kill" or even remotely damage any bijuu's, it's hard to imagine it breaking V4 Susano with the spiritual weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Clearly, as Troyse stated, CT does not lose it's gravity because the rocks that were collected stay in place. When Sasuke held up all the Biju, they stayed up. If the gravity was gone, they would all come tumbling down. 

So we would have Itachi stuck in his Susano'o, only able to defend his front, while being held up in the air. Asura should be able to deal just a tad bit of damage.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 3, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Obviously* the core loses its gravitational pull afterwards*, *which was how 8 tails Naruto was able to escape afterwards. Considering the fact that CT from Sasuke couldn't even "kill" or even remotely damage any bijuu's, it's hard to imagine it breaking V4 Susano* with the spiritual weapons.



You're comparing V4 Susanoo's durability to a Bijuu's durability, namely Kurama. 



			
				Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:
			
		

> Sapherosth said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MShadows (Jul 4, 2018)

OP is the reason why a lot of Itachi fans get a bad rap... YM reflects *gravity? *I almost lost a few IQ points reading these retarded claims. 

OT: Pain mid diff at most.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 4, 2018)

ARGUS said:


> Correction,
> Yasaka, TBB and FRS were thrown together to bust the CT core
> TBB >> FRS >>>>>>>> Yasaka
> 
> so the idea that itachi could even dent the core before it develops and traps him in is completely unlikely


Utterly underestimating YM

Chance are, it is Ethereal Spirit tool like latter.
Kishi took inspiration directly in Mythology, I find it hard to believe Three Imperial Regalia entitty like weapon cannot grind into CT vital point. YT TB is Ethereal entity why shouldnt YM gain exact hype penetrative ability? This is likely perfectly correlative, considering DB claim it cross thousand kilometer inmidst gravity-attractivity, inspite likely losing momentum. Imagine pressuric firepower imbued in YM


Itachiisinvincible said:


> Wow. The Yata blocked a Kusanagi Blade by an out of Chakra fodder Hebi Sasuke. Nice feat. Wasn't Naruto's BM penetrated by a Rikudou Sasuke? Also, by the logic of ignoring the form of the character, I guess that the Executioner Blade has higher durability than Juubi Jins considering Kusanagi was unable to cut through it, yet it sliced through Juubidara like butter.
> 
> The Yata being stated to be able to negate any attack doesn't prove it can. You know what was also stated? Pain was the strongest member of the Akatsuki.


Pain never imply strongest Akatsuki

Show me panel proving claim

Ineffective point. Kusanagi-B didnt piercify blade, it pierce every thing, hype suggest, proving in Manga


Troyse22 said:


> The fuck?


What piece of my post didnt imply mangaic information


Mr Dicklesworth said:


> I don’t get why people are literally only mentioning Deva Path for stuff Itachi can counter. You do realize Pain has 5 other extremely lethal abilities right?
> 
> Even if Itachi managed to block CT (which makes no sense in its own right since it’s a fucking gravitational pull) how is he gonna avoid getting flanked by Animal Paths 5 boss level summons from behind, as well as Asura paths missiles.
> 
> ...


Hypothetically, Amaterasu hasnt been proven to be absorptionific

Nagato tried it, failed, instead tried ST.

Summon barely afflicted inexperienced imperfect sage utilizer like Naruto. Nothing suggesting it will afflict him. Ashura spring-like reflected, YT-lically


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## Troyse22 (Jul 4, 2018)

Sage light said:


> What piece of my post didnt imply mangaic information



He can't reflect Gravity, otherwise his shield would literally explode from the gravity keeping him on earth.

It literally makes no fkn sense.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 4, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> He can't reflect Gravity, otherwise his shield would literally explode from the gravity keeping him on earth.
> 
> It literally makes no fkn sense.


Never claimed it'll reflect earthly gravity(entirely, reflecting possible certain degree upto likely)

Claimed initially, it reflecting Pain gravity material entity reflecting force, externally


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## Mawt (Jul 4, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Pain never imply strongest Akatsuki
> 
> Show me panel proving claim
> 
> Ineffective point. Kusanagi-B didnt piercify blade, it pierce every thing, hype suggest, proving in Manga


Yes, he's stated to be the strongest in the Akatsuki, in the last page of chapter 364 where Konan states, "The sky cries again... Pain.. are you?" In most online Manga websites, it cuts that part out, so it's hard for me to find a scan. However, this video has it at 0:40 
Feats > statements > hype. If hype rules, then Pain wins. He's called invincible 2 or 3 times, is stated to be a god multiple times, was stated to be unbeatable, had never been defeated before his fight with Naruto, was the leader of the Akatsuki which Itachi and Kisame took orders from, etc. Nope, Kusanagi can't cut through anything. It's clear it gets stronger with the user as the series progresses. Orochimaru was unable to cut through 4T Naruto's skin with Kusanagi, yet we have a Rinnegan Sasuke slicing through Juubidara like butter. Are you telling me 4T Naruto's skin is stronger than Juubidara? This is made even more apparent by how infusing Chakra into weapons to make them stronger is shown multiple times through the series (prime example: Wind Arc). Rikudou Sasuke enhances Kusanagi with Rikudou Chakra, and it therefore becomes a lot stronger.


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## Mr Dicklesworth (Jul 4, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Hypothetically, Amaterasu hasnt been proven to be absorptionific
> 
> Nagato tried it, failed, instead tried ST.
> 
> Summon barely afflicted inexperienced imperfect sage utilizer like Naruto. Nothing suggesting it will afflict him. Ashura spring-like reflected, YT-lically



Why can’t he absorb Ama? It’s a chakra based attack, so no valid evidence it can’t be absorbed. Explain why SM Madara was unaffected by it when Sasuke hit him with it.

Naruto tanked the summons attack because he was in SM, which is specifically a massive power amplifier that increases taijutsu and durability. Itachi isn’t fucking barehanding it the same way Naruto did.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mawt (Jul 4, 2018)

Mr Dicklesworth said:


> Why can’t he absorb Ama? It’s a chakra based attack, so no valid evidence it can’t be absorbed. Explain why SM Madara was unaffected by it when Sasuke hit him with it.


And Kabuto was still awestruck that Itachi managed to break the ET binding, so he wasn't focusing on the battle properly. If he was, then Nagato wouldn't have been laying on the ground for a chapter while Itachi gave a history lesson of Kotoamatsukami.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 4, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> Yes, he's stated to be the strongest in the Akatsuki, in the last page of chapter 364 where Konan states, "The sky cries again... Pain.. are you?" In most online Manga websites, it cuts that part out, so it's hard for me to find a scan. However, this video has it at 0:40
> Feats > statements > hype. If hype rules, then Pain wins. He's called invincible 2 or 3 times, is stated to be a god multiple times, was stated to be unbeatable, had never been defeated before his fight with Naruto, was the leader of the Akatsuki which Itachi and Kisame took orders from, etc. Nope, Kusanagi can't cut through anything. It's clear it gets stronger with the user as the series progresses. Orochimaru was unable to cut through 4T Naruto's skin with Kusanagi, yet we have a Rinnegan Sasuke slicing through Juubidara like butter. Are you telling me 4T Naruto's skin is stronger than Juubidara? This is made even more apparent by how infusing Chakra into weapons to make them stronger is shown multiple times through the series (prime example: Wind Arc). Rikudou Sasuke enhances Kusanagi with Rikudou Chakra, and it therefore becomes a lot stronger.


Pain is strongest because Itachi is a person veiled in secrecy

Nagato himself blatantly admitted he was a "shinobi of darkness". Had they known Itachis raw power, they will have renamed him as strongest.

Feats are never greater than hype. Kishi will not hype Nagato to make him weaker than Deidara in the end(who has better destructive feats).

Kusanagi have many variations, Oro's being the weakest, Sasuke's being better, Itachis totsuka blade being even better than prior. Same situational logic cannot be applied. It cut Madara by molding chakra and without molding chakra, one cutting through, the other being piercing through.


Mr Dicklesworth said:


> Why can’t he absorb Ama? It’s a chakra based attack, so no valid evidence it can’t be absorbed. Explain why SM Madara was unaffected by it when Sasuke hit him with it.
> 
> Naruto tanked the summons attack because he was in SM, which is specifically a massive power amplifier that increases taijutsu and durability. Itachi isn’t fucking barehanding it the same way Naruto did.


Villains always use effortless techniques first, if that doesnt suffice, they use much difficult than prior technique

Absorption is chosen method always if that suffices.

SM Madara had Hashis Senjutsu, the most powerful in existence bar Rikudo

Itachi's physical strength shouldnt be overlooked, overpowered casually KCM mode, filled with Kyuubi's powerful chakra, destroying upon contact (as it broke bricks)


Itachiisinvincible said:


> And Kabuto was still awestruck that Itachi managed to break the ET binding, so he wasn't focusing on the battle properly. If he was, then Nagato wouldn't have been laying on the ground for a chapter while Itachi gave a history lesson of Kotoamatsukami.


That is not proof of anything

Talking is time irrecognized for viewers and readers

Sasuke sliced Madara while he said a full sentence, appriopriating this to that, it'll seem he took that amount of time to cut him or latter can talk at speed of light, as former is in that level of speed prior to thier confrontation


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## Mr Dicklesworth (Jul 5, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Villains always use effortless techniques first, if that doesnt suffice, they use much difficult than prior technique
> 
> Absorption is chosen method always if that suffices.
> 
> ...



So Itachi lightly sparring with Naruto while both of them were talking about Sasuke automatically means Itachi is on par physically with the likes of Gamabunta, SM Jiraiya etc.

Let me get this straight: You're claiming Itachi can block CT with Yata mirror. While that's happening, he can also simultaneously hold off 5 boss summons and Asura Path coming at him from behind with Taijutsu alone; all while also one shotting each pain with Amaterasu.

Please give me the crack you're smoking


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 5, 2018)

Mr Dicklesworth said:


> So Itachi lightly sparring with Naruto while both of them were talking about Sasuke automatically means Itachi is on par physically with the likes of Gamabunta, SM Jiraiya etc.
> 
> Let me get this straight: You're claiming Itachi can block CT with Yata mirror. While that's happening, he can also simultaneously hold off 5 boss summons and Asura Path coming at him from behind with Taijutsu alone; all while also one shotting each pain with Amaterasu.
> 
> Please give me the crack you're smoking


Im not smoking crack

Im not saying he will oneshot summons. Instead he can stall time enough for them to be killed by his Shield's sword converted form

Talking is not part of fight nor does it affect fight in any shape or form. He also was serious, like he cant friendly spar against a powerful edo tensei like Itachi whom he thinks has killing intent


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## ThomasTheCat (Jul 5, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Feats are never greater than hype.



Say that out loud, think really hard, and try again.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 5, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Say that out loud, think really hard, and try again.


See the posts

All of them efficiently countered critically by me. All of them. There's no "unfact" from my part, I deliver clear fact with each of my post


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## ThomasTheCat (Jul 5, 2018)

Sage light said:


> See the posts
> 
> All of them efficiently countered critically by me. All of them. There's no "unfact" from my part, I deliver clear fact with each of my post



Whatever helps you sleep at night...


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 6, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Whatever helps you sleep at night...


You dont think I post fact


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## KaguyaFodder (Jul 6, 2018)

Fireball GG


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## ThomasTheCat (Jul 6, 2018)

Sage light said:


> You dont think I post fact



As if that wasn't obvious...

I gave up on properly replying to anything you've said in this thread because you clearly don't care to even try and look from the other side's point of view. You walk into the debate thinking that no matter what, you're right, despite people proving you wrong. Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 6, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> As if that wasn't obvious...
> 
> I gave up on properly replying to anything you've said in this thread because you clearly don't care to even try and look from the other side's point of view. You walk into the debate thinking that no matter what, you're right, despite people proving you wrong. Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?


Bro Im always with fact, if you say fact I'll agree but if you dont? Nah


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## JuicyG (Jul 6, 2018)

KaguyaFodder said:


> Fireball GG



This post is legendary.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 6, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> This post is legendary.


Man the votes arent increasing

Like..the hardcore debating through pure fact from my side isnt moving the boat to other side, I mean we're stuck at 5


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## JuicyG (Jul 6, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Man the votes arent increasing
> 
> Like..the hardcore debating through pure fact from my side isnt moving the boat to other side, I mean we're stuck at 5



I never voted for Itachi. Simply because he doesnt have the chakra pool to win this fight. He'd have to sustain susanoo the whole time.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 6, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> I never voted for Itachi. Simply because he doesnt have the chakra pool to win this fight. He'd have to sustain susanoo the whole time.




What if I made infinite chakra itachi? You'd still say he'll lose?


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## JuicyG (Jul 6, 2018)

Sage light said:


> What if I made infinite chakra itachi? You'd still say he'll lose?



A good argument can be made.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 6, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> A good argument can be made.


Can you make that argument now? 

This should be the last thread anyone says "Pain>Itachi" ignoring fact. Let's end it


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 6, 2018)

Sage light said:


> This should be the last thread anyone says "Pain>Itachi" ignoring fact. Let's end it



Except all facts say Pain>Itachi.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 6, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except all facts say Pain>Itachi.


What facts are they, could you extrapolate?

I think my fact rule, though, still


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## ThomasTheCat (Jul 6, 2018)

Sage light said:


> What facts are they, could you extrapolate?
> 
> I think my fact rule, though, still



Fact is not subjective... Fact is objectively true. Your "fact" is actually your misunderstanding and wank that you've rebranded because you think Itachi can't fucking lose


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 6, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Fact is not subjective... Fact is objectively true. Your "fact" is actually your misunderstanding and wank that you've rebranded because you think Itachi can't fucking lose


I don't think that, bro

Obito JJ can beat Itachi, he is God Tier

I just can't swallow the pill pain beating Itachi, realistically, since cannonically narrative say otherwise, i.e, Pain inferior to itachi

Worse, not single argument prove pain beating him, some how, if any


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 6, 2018)

Sage light said:


> What facts are they, could you extrapolate?
> 
> I think my fact rule, though, still



Your facts are fabricated, as to what points to Pain>Itachi, you just need to read the posts ITT and the manga to find out.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 6, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Your facts are fabricated, as to what points to Pain>Itachi, you just need to read the posts ITT and the manga to find out.


I read post, read Manga

My fact is unfabricated fact


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 6, 2018)

Sage light said:


> I read post, read Manga
> 
> My fact is unfabricated fact



Your facts are all fabricated, which is why you're constantly told to read the posts and especially the manga.


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## ThomasTheCat (Jul 6, 2018)

Sage light said:


> I don't think that, bro
> 
> Obito JJ can beat Itachi, he is God Tier
> 
> ...



1. That was what's called a "hyperbole", otherwise known as a strategically placed exaggeration that everyone should understand to be an exaggeration.

2. Canonically, every bit of hype points to Pain being above Itachi, bar the _hyperbole _of Itachi being invincible. You've hilariously failed to counter anything @Mr Dicklesworth has said effectively, or me, or any other decent post here.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 6, 2018)

@Sage light's points as as real as Roxas' Twilight Town.


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## ARGUS (Jul 6, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Utterly underestimating YM


no, Yasaka Magatamas best feat is just putting a small dent on onokis rock golem, and that was 6 of them tossed by madaras superior susanoo, 
Itachis strongest offense invoolved only tossing 3 of them 

FRS on the other hand momentarily immobilised the god damn kyuubi 
and TBB turns entire mountains to dust 

so yeah 
TBB >> FRS >>>>>>> YM 



> Chance are, it is Ethereal Spirit tool like latter.
> Kishi took inspiration directly in Mythology, I find it hard to believe Three Imperial Regalia entitty like weapon cannot grind into CT vital point. YT TB is Ethereal entity why shouldnt YM gain exact hype penetrative ability? This is likely perfectly correlative, considering DB claim it cross thousand kilometer inmidst gravity-attractivity, inspite likely losing momentum. Imagine pressuric firepower imbued in YM


Yata Mirror is not capable of defying gravity becuase it is equipped with susanoo which still stays on ground, 
if  these spirit weapons were truly truly ethereal, you would have the susanoo flying in space and travelling in relativistic speeds, 
thhat wont be the case, 

the durability of Yata  mirror because it is equipped with V4 susanoo,  would be the same as  V4 susanoo, so any attack that can bust that construct would be the limit of Yata mirror 

CT one shots him 

 -- Yaska Magatama offers no resistance to the core, until itachi eventually starts getting sucked in by core 
 -- his bottom is exposed cus his sussanoo has no legs so the rocks would not only start to cramp him there but if he cant even breath inside the core, hes not breaking free
 -- V4 susanoo does not have the physical strength of KN8 given the latter is pretty much close to the full thing, so nagato continues to build it up,until itachi cant maintain the susanoo becuase of stamina or breathing difficulties, and despite the susanoo there, he cant break free because it lacks the physical strength or output to do so



> Pain never imply strongest Akatsuki


Zetsu, Obito, Konan and Kishi have canonically claimed that Pein is the strongest member of the akatsuki


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## Bonly (Jul 6, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> @Sage light's points as as real as Roxas' Twilight Town.



You leave my Kingdom Hearts out of this you uncultured swine!


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 6, 2018)

Bonly said:


> You leave my Kingdom Hearts out of this you uncultured swine!



You need 12 extra versions of you to make me consider that.


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## KaguyaIsWeak (Jul 7, 2018)

Ends in sex


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## KaguyaIsWeak (Jul 7, 2018)

Pain is top, Itachi bottoms as the little spoon


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 7, 2018)

ARGUS said:


> no, Yasaka Magatamas best feat is just putting a small dent on onokis rock golem, and that was 6 of them tossed by madaras superior susanoo,
> Itachis strongest offense invoolved only tossing 3 of them


I think the Databooks differentiate between Itachis and Madaras Magatamas, both arent the same, Madara doesnt even call it Magatama as far as I know, meaning, its as irrelevant as the extra susanoo blades his and every other susanoo wields. Whereas Itachis is different, it has a special sharingan like pattern and is implied to be a Ethereal Weapon from the info that it can travel miles of distance without losing velocity, meaning, it has some sort of supernatural power, and not a common bead like Madaras. 


> FRS on the other hand momentarily immobilised the god damn kyuubi
> and TBB turns entire mountains to dust
> 
> so yeah
> TBB >> FRS >>>>>>> YM


Do you really believe crater is the accurate measurement for potency of attack? I don't think so, even. Certain attacks like Night Guy do not emit tangible force enough to create large craters like say, what Bijudama create, though, its the stronger attack. Im sure Itachis one is superior by the fact Kishi gave him exact weapons in Japanese Mythology for symbolism, so Yasaka is in thier league(other two tools), obviously


> Yata Mirror is not capable of defying gravity becuase it is equipped with susanoo which still stays on ground,
> if  these spirit weapons were truly truly ethereal, you would have the susanoo flying in space and travelling in relativistic speeds,
> thhat wont be the case,
> 
> the durability of Yata  mirror because it is equipped with V4 susanoo,  would be the same as  V4 susanoo, so any attack that can bust that construct would be the limit of Yata mirror


I dont think Physics can be applied literally in Naruto, not to mention it could Itachis reluctance to do such, considering his inability to make himself go all out and reveal his true power. What's clear is they're weapons created by some ethereal god and Susanoo being special type of Chakra Construct


> CT one shots him
> 
> -- Yaska Magatama offers no resistance to the core, until itachi eventually starts getting sucked in by core
> -- his bottom is exposed cus his sussanoo has no legs so the rocks would not only start to cramp him there but if he cant even breath inside the core, hes not breaking free
> -- V4 susanoo does not have the physical strength of KN8 given the latter is pretty much close to the full thing, so nagato continues to build it up,until itachi cant maintain the susanoo becuase of stamina or breathing difficulties, and despite the susanoo there, he cant break free because it lacks the physical strength or output to do so


Sasuke's V1 is crushing through hard bridges which did not allow Susanoo arrow, a really hyped attack, to phase through. CT in the end is mere rock, V4 is the strongest non-legged version, YT can deflect the gravity pull, also, if it prove detrimental


> Zetsu, Obito, Konan and Kishi have canonically claimed that Pein is the strongest member of the akatsuki


After Itachi died. This isnt taking account that Minato cannonically implied Tobi is mind manipulating Pain, into doing his fray, Zetsu being in partnership with Tobi. Itachi is the reason they didnt attack leaf for 8 years, no way he is stronger than him


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## Gohara (Jul 7, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Canonically, every bit of hype



Like what?  There are some points that I don't agree with him on.  However outside of discussing how their abilities would interact I don't see any points made on hype and portrayal specifically for those characters.  I don't necessarily agree with some of the points on abilities however I can see why our views differ on abilities because of different interpretations of Izanami.


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## Mawt (Jul 7, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Pain is strongest because Itachi is a person veiled in secrecy



Your own interpretation of Pain being called the strongest because Itachi was veiled in secrecy has nothing to support it. And by the way, Tobi and Pain were two of the most mysterious antagonists at the time, so your own logic can work backwards.



Sage light said:


> Nagato himself blatantly admitted he was a "shinobi of darkness". Had they known Itachis raw power, they will have renamed him as strongest.



Meaningless, as it wasn't the Akatsuki or Nagato who crowned Pain as the strongest. It was a note left by the author of the story.



Sage light said:


> Feats are never greater than hype. Kishi will not hype Nagato to make him weaker than Deidara in the end(who has better destructive feats).



And, there exists a thing in story called "exaggeration." The spirit weapons which belong to Itachi's Susano'o most likely fall under said category. What proves even more that the powers of these weapons is merely fabled is the fact that Black Zetsu stated only stated that according to legend, these weapons could do what they can. He never stated it himself, contrary to popular belief. All he stated was that Itachi was invincible. Considering you made your own excuse for the Pain being the strongest Akatsuki quote, I can do the same and say that in context, Zetsu was only referring to the battle between Sasuke and Itachi and saying that in that battle specifically Itachi was invincible due to the fact that an out of Chakra Hebi Sasuke truly has nothing against Itachi that can harm his spirit weapons, let alone the Susano'o. So yes, while certain hype remains to be true, other hype is exaggeration/hyperbole. Pain being invincible is one such example.



Sage light said:


> Kusanagi have many variations, Oro's being the weakest, Sasuke's being better, Itachis totsuka blade being even better than prior. Same situational logic cannot be applied. It cut Madara by molding chakra and without molding chakra, one cutting through, the other being piercing through.



Anything to back up said claim? Regardless, irrelevant considering I have another example of Sasuke's Kusanagi being unable of cutting something (   ). If Kusanagi was able to cut through as casually as it did Juubidara, then I don't think Sasuke would clash with Bee rather than just cutting through the Executioner Blade and slicing Bee. Even if we were to stick to your claim of Sasuke not molding Chakra/molding Chakra, regardless, this scan would prove that somehow, the Executioner Blade would have greater endurance than a Juubi Jin even stronger than another Juubi Jin who tanked an Enton FRS yet was unphased. Are you now going to tell me the Executioner Blade >>>> Enton FRS? Nope, because that's not the case. As mentioned above, it's made blatant that the weapon increases in power as does the user. It's made clear in Naruto that what matters more than a weapon is the skill and experience of the person using the weapon. As Black Zetsu stated, a master with a rock can beat a novice with a shuriken.



Sage light said:


> That is not proof of anything
> 
> Talking is time irrecognized for viewers and readers
> 
> Sasuke sliced Madara while he said a full sentence, appriopriating this to that, it'll seem he took that amount of time to cut him or latter can talk at speed of light, as former is in that level of speed prior to thier confrontation



You have a point, but this is still irrelevant. Even if we remove the talking, please tell me why it's logical that Nagato would remove the Amaterasu while its burning him (and it's already burned most of his body) instead of doing it right when it landed on him. That makes no sense.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 8, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> Your own interpretation of Pain being called the strongest because Itachi was veiled in secrecy has nothing to support it. And by the way, Tobi and Pain were two of the most mysterious antagonists at the time, so your own logic can work backwards.


Director keep's in mind, conditions when he says statements, which fans take as "hyperbole". Pain being strongest is said under the condition Itachi's power is not revealed, plus, there is a concept of "greater hype" which exist in our universe which let us infer who really is the strongest among extremely hyped individuals. Pain did not attack Konoha during 8 years along with his Tobi, because he is scared of Itachi, so we get the context. One thing you shouldnt misinterpret is that context is not created by the fans but by the manga, and analyzing of it's pages. Itachi having far better hype so much that the Akatsuki shivered in his presence prove Pain's hype is stated in context. Also, Itachi being Invincible likely do not have context as rumours are fact in NV as far as Im concerned. Kyuubi was stated to be a creature of malice in part 1, it is reiterated in part 2 that its a creature of hate. So rumour are true, Spirit Weapons hype is true.


> Meaningless, as it wasn't the Akatsuki or Nagato who crowned Pain as the strongest. It was a note left by the author of the story.


Director keeps certain conditions. Just like Kamui was stated as having no counter, but is confirmed to have weakness against other Kamui. This shouldnt be misunderstood for hyperbole as the author's intent is white clear


> And, there exists a thing in story called "exaggeration." The spirit weapons which belong to Itachi's Susano'o most likely fall under said category. What proves even more that the powers of these weapons is merely fabled is the fact that Black Zetsu stated only stated that according to legend, these weapons could do what they can. He never stated it himself, contrary to popular belief. All he stated was that Itachi was invincible. Considering you made your own excuse for the Pain being the strongest Akatsuki quote, I can do the same and say that in context, Zetsu was only referring to the battle between Sasuke and Itachi and saying that in that battle specifically Itachi was invincible due to the fact that an out of Chakra Hebi Sasuke truly has nothing against Itachi that can harm his spirit weapons, let alone the Susano'o. So yes, while certain hype remains to be true, other hype is exaggeration/hyperbole. Pain being invincible is one such example.


Pain being invincible isn't hyperbole when X character corrected said statement. Minato re-translated the statement when he said Tobi is manipulating Pain through words, like he did to Sasuke, due to his enemity to Konoha. Him saying Pain is invincible is due to him being Immortal, plus his secret which killed someone like Jiraiya, on the road to figuring it out, databook confirms it, you can read the 3rd Pain databooks on the internet


> Anything to back up said claim? Regardless, irrelevant considering I have another example of Sasuke's Kusanagi being unable of cutting something (   ). If Kusanagi was able to cut through as casually as it did Juubidara, then I don't think Sasuke would clash with Bee rather than just cutting through the Executioner Blade and slicing Bee. Even if we were to stick to your claim of Sasuke not molding Chakra/molding Chakra, regardless, this scan would prove that somehow, the Executioner Blade would have greater endurance than a Juubi Jin even stronger than another Juubi Jin who tanked an Enton FRS yet was unphased. Are you now going to tell me the Executioner Blade >>>> Enton FRS? Nope, because that's not the case. As mentioned above, it's made blatant that the weapon increases in power as does the user. It's made clear in Naruto that what matters more than a weapon is the skill and experience of the person using the weapon. As Black Zetsu stated, a master with a rock can beat a novice with a shuriken.


Kusanagi, Sasuke's version is hyped to pierce anything, not cut as it failed against Bee even with chakra transfution, reason being Raiton counters Raiton, Bee being an equally capable lightning user. Also, chakra strength of Sasuke increased throughout the series, during time progress, but the strength of the blade didnt. Hence it cut Madara only through chakra enhancement, but pierced him without chakra enhancement


> You have a point, but this is still irrelevant. Even if we remove the talking, please tell me why it's logical that Nagato would remove the Amaterasu while its burning him (and it's already burned most of his body) instead of doing it right when it landed on him. That makes no sense.


On panel, it was shown Nagato's eyes brightening into the Rinnegan, from its deadened state, due to Kabuto taking time to control him fully, hence the delay


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## ThomasTheCat (Jul 8, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Like what?  There are some points that I don't agree with him on.  However outside of discussing how their abilities would interact I don't see any points made on hype and portrayal specifically for those characters.  I don't necessarily agree with some of the points on abilities however I can see why our views differ on abilities because of different interpretations of Izanami.



Pain was called a "god". Though hyperbolic, it symbolizes his superiority to the other Akatsuki members, bar maybe Obito.


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## Mawt (Jul 9, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Director keep's in mind, conditions when he says statements, which fans take as "hyperbole". Pain being strongest is said under the condition Itachi's power is not revealed, plus, there is a concept of "greater hype" which exist in our universe which let us infer who really is the strongest among extremely hyped individuals. Pain did not attack Konoha during 8 years along with his Tobi, because he is scared of Itachi, so we get the context. One thing you shouldnt misinterpret is that context is not created by the fans but by the manga, and analyzing of it's pages. Itachi having far better hype so much that the Akatsuki shivered in his presence prove Pain's hype is stated in context. Also, Itachi being Invincible likely do not have context as rumours are fact in NV as far as Im concerned. Kyuubi was stated to be a creature of malice in part 1, it is reiterated in part 2 that its a creature of hate. So rumour are true, Spirit Weapons hype is true.


And...you contradicted yourself. If the context is present in the Manga, please tell me why everybody in the fanbase has different opinions on the matter? Some do believe that Pain is the strongest and refer to this exact quote. Others don't. Your entire argument is based on the possibility that this quote is not taking into account Itachi's powers because of the mystery shrouded in them. Your argument is not credible as you have nothing to support it. And even so, even IF I give you the win in this argument, what is there to prove that these "mysterious powers" of Itachi are stronger than Pain's? Him being stated to be invincible? His Yata Mirror blocking anything? His Totsuka Blade sealing anything or anyone? These quotes have the same credibility as Pain being unbeatable or him being a god. Pain being scared of Itachi? Show me a single time he's scared of Itachi. If he was scared of him, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't give orders to him. The Akatsuki shivered in the presence of Itachi? Lol never happened. I wonder why the almighty Itachi who scared even the Akatsuki wasn't the one giving orders to them. Why didn't Pain attack Konoha? And I could ask you why that if Itachi was as strong as you claim, why didn't he just defeat the Akatsuki himself? Anyway, Pain didn't attack Konoha for plot reasons. The same reason why Naruto didn't use SPSM in The Last. Are you going to tell me Naruto from EoS lost his powers in The Last and later regained them? It was stated somewhere that the reason the Akatsuki didn't go after Naruto pre-timeskip was because Jiraiya was protecting him. Later, we find out Obito and Pain could take care of Jiraiya. So yes, plot. There's literally nothing stopping Pain from attacking Konoha except for a half blind half ill dead Itachi. Since you use NLFs, I'm gonna do the same thing and go ahead and say that because it's stated the Preta Path can absorb ANY Jutsu in the databooks, which are no.1 hype material, then Pain can absorb the Fuinjutsu of the Totsuka Blade. Kyuubi's malice hype being real somehow now means all hype is real? It was also stated Guy's Eighth Gate in Part 1 would be slightly stronger than the Hokage. Later retconned in Shippuden to being way stronger.



Sage light said:


> Director keeps certain conditions. Just like Kamui was stated as having no counter, but is confirmed to have weakness against other Kamui. This shouldnt be misunderstood for hyperbole as the author's intent is white clear


Yet the spirit weapons of Itachi, who has no place in the story to be such a Godly character like is claimed, are not hyperbole? Despite the fact Zetsu literally described their powers as legends? And even if they aren't hyperboles, you just confirmed with your analogy that the author can go from hyping an ability up to unstoppable to later retconning it. Who's to say the same doesn't happen to Itachi? One thing that remains consistent throughout the series is that all Jutsu have weaknesses. Even SPSM, the God power of the verse, has a weakness. So, why wouldn't the Yata Mirror? Again, Itachi has no place in the story to be such a Godly character with these powers.



Sage light said:


> Pain being invincible isn't hyperbole when X character corrected said statement. Minato re-translated the statement when he said Tobi is manipulating Pain through words, like he did to Sasuke, due to his enemity to Konoha. Him saying Pain is invincible is due to him being Immortal, plus his secret which killed someone like Jiraiya, on the road to figuring it out, databook confirms it, you can read the 3rd Pain databooks on the internet


Yes, I've seen every time Pain's been stated invincible. But anyway, Pain isn't invincible. The fact he lost to Naruto is proof he isn't.



Sage light said:


> Kusanagi, Sasuke's version is hyped to pierce anything, not cut as it failed against Bee even with chakra transfution, reason being Raiton counters Raiton, Bee being an equally capable lightning user. Also, chakra strength of Sasuke increased throughout the series, during time progress, but the strength of the blade didnt. Hence it cut Madara only through chakra enhancement, but pierced him without chakra enhancement


So, you half agree with me and half don't. You agree that with Sasuke's Chakra enhancements, he is able to aid the blade in being able to cut through things better. However, you are sticking to hype and claiming that Kusanagi can still pierce through anything. You referenced the part where Sasuke pierced Juubidara, but is there any evidence he didn't use Chakra enhancements there but did use it when cutting Juubidara?



Sage light said:


> On panel, it was shown Nagato's eyes brightening into the Rinnegan, from its deadened state, due to Kabuto taking time to control him fully, hence the delay


Irrelevant fact as he could still use Shinra Tensei without being fully controlled like that.


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## ThomasTheCat (Jul 9, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> And...you contradicted yourself. If the context is present in the Manga, please tell me why everybody in the fanbase has different opinions on the matter? Some do believe that Pain is the strongest and refer to this exact quote. Others don't. Your entire argument is based on the possibility that this quote is not taking into account Itachi's powers because of the mystery shrouded in them. Your argument is not credible as you have nothing to support it. And even so, even IF I give you the win in this argument, what is there to prove that these "mysterious powers" of Itachi are stronger than Pain's? Him being stated to be invincible? His Yata Mirror blocking anything? His Totsuka Blade sealing anything or anyone? These quotes have the same credibility as Pain being unbeatable or him being a god. Pain being scared of Itachi? Show me a single time he's scared of Itachi. If he was scared of him, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't give orders to him. The Akatsuki shivered in the presence of Itachi? Lol never happened. I wonder why the almighty Itachi who scared even the Akatsuki wasn't the one giving orders to them. Why didn't Pain attack Konoha? And I could ask you why that if Itachi was as strong as you claim, why didn't he just defeat the Akatsuki himself? Anyway, Pain didn't attack Konoha for plot reasons. The same reason why Naruto didn't use SPSM in The Last. Are you going to tell me Naruto from EoS lost his powers in The Last and later regained them? It was stated somewhere that the reason the Akatsuki didn't go after Naruto pre-timeskip was because Jiraiya was protecting him. Later, we find out Obito and Pain could take care of Jiraiya. So yes, plot. There's literally nothing stopping Pain from attacking Konoha except for a half blind half ill dead Itachi. Since you use NLFs, I'm gonna do the same thing and go ahead and say that because it's stated the Preta Path can absorb ANY Jutsu in the databooks, which are no.1 hype material, then Pain can absorb the Fuinjutsu of the Totsuka Blade. Kyuubi's malice hype being real somehow now means all hype is real? It was also stated Guy's Eighth Gate in Part 1 would be slightly stronger than the Hokage. Later retconned in Shippuden to being way stronger.
> 
> 
> Yet the spirit weapons of Itachi, who has no place in the story to be such a Godly character like is claimed, are not hyperbole? Despite the fact Zetsu literally described their powers as legends? And even if they aren't hyperboles, you just confirmed with your analogy that the author can go from hyping an ability up to unstoppable to later retconning it. Who's to say the same doesn't happen to Itachi? One thing that remains consistent throughout the series is that all Jutsu have weaknesses. Even SPSM, the God power of the verse, has a weakness. So, why wouldn't the Yata Mirror? Again, Itachi has no place in the story to be such a Godly character with these powers.
> ...



I was going to read that, but I realized it was an essay


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 9, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> And...you contradicted yourself. If the context is present in the Manga, please tell me why everybody in the fanbase has different opinions on the matter? Some do believe that Pain is the strongest and refer to this exact quote. Others don't. Your entire argument is based on the possibility that this quote is not taking into account Itachi's powers because of the mystery shrouded in them. Your argument is not credible as you have nothing to support it. And even so, even IF I give you the win in this argument, what is there to prove that these "mysterious powers" of Itachi are stronger than Pain's? Him being stated to be invincible? His Yata Mirror blocking anything? His Totsuka Blade sealing anything or anyone? These quotes have the same credibility as Pain being unbeatable or him being a god. Pain being scared of Itachi? Show me a single time he's scared of Itachi. If he was scared of him, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't give orders to him. The Akatsuki shivered in the presence of Itachi? Lol never happened. I wonder why the almighty Itachi who scared even the Akatsuki wasn't the one giving orders to them. Why didn't Pain attack Konoha? And I could ask you why that if Itachi was as strong as you claim, why didn't he just defeat the Akatsuki himself? Anyway, Pain didn't attack Konoha for plot reasons. The same reason why Naruto didn't use SPSM in The Last. Are you going to tell me Naruto from EoS lost his powers in The Last and later regained them? It was stated somewhere that the reason the Akatsuki didn't go after Naruto pre-timeskip was because Jiraiya was protecting him. Later, we find out Obito and Pain could take care of Jiraiya. So yes, plot. There's literally nothing stopping Pain from attacking Konoha except for a half blind half ill dead Itachi. Since you use NLFs, I'm gonna do the same thing and go ahead and say that because it's stated the Preta Path can absorb ANY Jutsu in the databooks, which are no.1 hype material, then Pain can absorb the Fuinjutsu of the Totsuka Blade. Kyuubi's malice hype being real somehow now means all hype is real? It was also stated Guy's Eighth Gate in Part 1 would be slightly stronger than the Hokage. Later retconned in Shippuden to being way stronger.


Pain could be the strongest member in the Akatsuki, but not Invincible. Invincibility is a state of being immune to defeat, Pain have limited chakra reserves, limited stamina, limited hax powers. Hell, his greatest ST which reduced his lifeforce destroyed a whole village but, couldnt kill a single shinobi. Hanzo escaped Prime Nagato's Killing Intent Soul Dragon, Pain himself implied Prime Hanzo beat's him, plus the Invincible Quote is due to him having a secret of using puppets to attack enemy and, when they're unaware, strike from behind. 3rd Databooks clears it, so there is context as proven, not to mention "unbeatable" is stated in terms of what's known currently, as in, not being beaten until now, and Im sure he isn't been stated to be Unbeatable but Invincible, which's context I've stated already, another Konan statement imply he's never lost a battle, but that cannot translate to Invincibility but just overwhelming power which kept him from being defeated, plus "God" is a title 5 shinobi have in real world and, a Clan of Shinobi have in the ethereal world, i.e, Otsutsuki, being a God doesnt guarantee Invincibility nor should it be taken as being Invincible but rather really really powerful like Hagoromo, Kaguya, both of them cannonically defeated, and only called "Immortal", Hell, Juubidara who was growing closer to Kaguya in strength bragged he was just Immortal, not Invincible, proving the validity of Itachi's Hype and, Spirit Tools, hype not to mention a being who cannonically witnessed the whole Indra Incarnate and, Ashura Incarnate, and Madara Hashirama Senju Uchiha, Uzumaki Otsutsuki Kaguya Power, thought and completely believed Itachi is Invincible, absolutely. There's an "!" Mark when Zetsu says he's Unbeatable proving, the gregariousity of said hype, Pain's statement was said with period ending in sentence, proving the underwhelming inferiority of hype, Pain never attacked leaf because of Itachi, the akatsuki, his team, feared former tremendously, considering how Tobi halted his plans for 8 years since 4th Hokage's death not to mention he had possession of 7 Biju Beasts + Rinnegan and Hidan's Unique Immortality Technique to ensure his win VS anyone, let alone the leaf, yet he didnt, plus Eighth Gate was stated to increase power 100 times of Hokage, it's hype is substantiated in Shippuden, Itachi having lack of screentime doesn't affect on what he's capable of, him not being the main character, does not affect his performance plus ability plus power plus legacy in the series. SPSM having a weakness doesn't Itachi should have one, not when he's the one who crafted that Quote so he could rewrite it, just like Tsunade rewriting laws of Medical Ninjutsu, this is not including Godly weapons in the first place granted, it isn't Jutsu but rather Spiritual Tools made by an ethereal god containing spiritual sealing technique which cannot be absorbed by preta because its not chakra plus, preta confirmed to absorb Ninjutsu only, DB meant Ninjutsu when saying all Jutsu, things shouldnt be assumed regarding spirit weapon's content due to them bypassing all knowledge knowable in Narutoverse as they differentiate blatantly from likes of chakra, and shouldnt be associated with it, the mere fact Pain acknowledged Itachi's power and took orders from him on not attacking leaf during leaf from his representative obito who is originally the one who is scared white of Itachi, he took latter's word of mouth ultimatum as law of not touching the village and he kept that law till latter deceased, proving latter's fearsomeness. Proving his feared power in the face of pain or obito who factually trembled by the looks of it, Hagoromo Hashirama's powers were legends were they not proven to be true? Yes they were. Why? Because hype is feat directly ie., legends and, fables are created through past visualisation of raw power from such entities hence they become fable, not because they're made up lie, thats nowhere near the truth


> Yet the spirit weapons of Itachi, who has no place in the story to be such a Godly character like is claimed, are not hyperbole? Despite the fact Zetsu literally described their powers as legends? And even if they aren't hyperboles, you just confirmed with your analogy that the author can go from hyping an ability up to unstoppable to later retconning it. Who's to say the same doesn't happen to Itachi? One thing that remains consistent throughout the series is that all Jutsu have weaknesses. Even SPSM, the God power of the verse, has a weakness. So, why wouldn't the Yata Mirror? Again, Itachi has no place in the story to be such a Godly character with these powers.


No I meant a diamond can be broken by another diamond. Essentially, Kamui can be countered by another Kamui. Hyperbole is when a certain statement cannot be reiterated in any form of context as them being truly outlandish in essence per say, "Hashirama can destroy the whole planet with Shinsuusenju"---> such is hyperbolic sentence, not Itachi is Invincible, as it goes perfectly with canon portrayal and, powers Itachi wield, other than Spirit tool. The irony is something becomes fabled when it doe s something really miraculous to the human eye, like So6p creating the whole universe with Nunoboku no Ken, not because of made up falsity, as many miscontrue. Same case with Yata, fabled becuase of past showcase of immense power, hence leading people who never seen it eye to eye to consider them a fable, the DB clarify that Totsuka's existence is unknown to 98% of the planet, only a few know about it's identity let alone thier raw power. Itachi gave orders hence not even Pain knew his real power but knew enough to be fearful in his presence, he didnt kill Akatsuki as he doesn't have killing intent almost all the time, he let Orochimaru, a cannonically trulu evil villain get away


> Yes, I've seen every time Pain's been stated invincible. But anyway, Pain isn't invincible. The fact he lost to Naruto is proof he isn't.


He is stated in contextual manner becuase identity of Paths is real reason of immortality of his, Naruto figured it out and, exploited it hence the hype resolved and lay at rest without any contradiction to said hype


> So, you half agree with me and half don't. You agree that with Sasuke's Chakra enhancements, he is able to aid the blade in being able to cut through things better. However, you are sticking to hype and claiming that Kusanagi can still pierce through anything. You referenced the part where Sasuke pierced Juubidara, but is there any evidence he didn't use Chakra enhancements there but did use it when cutting Juubidara?


When enhancing with chakra he stream's it with Chidori as can be visually configured, whereas when he does not use it, visual confirmation suggest the blade being in-amped with lightning chakra, chidori stream to be precise


> Irrelevant fact as he could still use Shinra Tensei without being fully controlled like that.


That's weird

He fell off his bird and suddenly lost conciousness for some reason. Wait..


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 9, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Pain could be the strongest member in the Akatsuki, but not Invincible. Invincibility is a state of being immune to defeat, Pain have limited chakra reserves, limited stamina, limited hax powers. Hell, his greatest ST which reduced his lifeforce destroyed a whole village but, couldnt kill a single shinobi. Hanzo escaped Prime Nagato's Killing Intent Soul Dragon, Pain himself implied Prime Hanzo beat's him, plus the Invincible Quote is due to him having a secret of using puppets to attack enemy and, when they're unaware, strike from behind. 3rd Databooks clears it, so there is context as proven, not to mention "unbeatable" is stated in terms of what's known currently, as in, not being beaten until now, and Im sure he isn't been stated to be Unbeatable but Invincible, which's context I've stated already, another Konan statement imply he's never lost a battle, but that cannot translate to Invincibility but just overwhelming power which kept him from being defeated, plus "God" is a title 5 shinobi have in real world and, a Clan of Shinobi have in the ethereal world, i.e, Otsutsuki, being a God doesnt guarantee Invincibility nor should it be taken as being Invincible but rather really really powerful like Hagoromo, Kaguya, both of them cannonically defeated, and only called "Immortal", Hell, Juubidara who was growing closer to Kaguya in strength bragged he was just Immortal, not Invincible, proving the validity of Itachi's Hype and, Spirit Tools, hype not to mention a being who cannonically witnessed the whole Indra Incarnate and, Ashura Incarnate, and Madara Hashirama Senju Uchiha, Uzumaki Otsutsuki Kaguya Power, thought and completely believed Itachi is Invincible, absolutely. There's an "!" Mark when Zetsu says he's Unbeatable proving, the gregariousity of said hype, Pain's statement was said with period ending in sentence, proving the underwhelming inferiority of hype, Pain never attacked leaf because of Itachi, the akatsuki, his team, feared former tremendously, considering how Tobi halted his plans for 8 years since 4th Hokage's death not to mention he had possession of 7 Biju Beasts + Rinnegan and Hidan's Unique Immortality Technique to ensure his win VS anyone, let alone the leaf, yet he didnt, plus Eighth Gate was stated to increase power 100 times of Hokage, it's hype is substantiated in Shippuden, Itachi having lack of screentime doesn't affect on what he's capable of, him not being the main character, does not affect his performance plus ability plus power plus legacy in the series. SPSM having a weakness doesn't Itachi should have one, not when he's the one who crafted that Quote so he could rewrite it, just like Tsunade rewriting laws of Medical Ninjutsu, this is not including Godly weapons in the first place granted, it isn't Jutsu but rather Spiritual Tools made by an ethereal god containing spiritual sealing technique which cannot be absorbed by preta because its not chakra plus, preta confirmed to absorb Ninjutsu only, DB meant Ninjutsu when saying all Jutsu, things shouldnt be assumed regarding spirit weapon's content due to them bypassing all knowledge knowable in Narutoverse as they differentiate blatantly from likes of chakra, and shouldnt be associated with it, the mere fact Pain acknowledged Itachi's power and took orders from him on not attacking leaf during leaf from his representative obito who is originally the one who is scared white of Itachi, he took latter's word of mouth ultimatum as law of not touching the village and he kept that law till latter deceased, proving latter's fearsomeness. Proving his feared power in the face of pain or obito who factually trembled by the looks of it, Hagoromo Hashirama's powers were legends were they not proven to be true? Yes they were. Why? Because hype is feat directly ie., legends and, fables are created through past visualisation of raw power from such entities hence they become fable, not because they're made up lie, thats nowhere near the truth
> 
> No I meant a diamond can be broken by another diamond. Essentially, Kamui can be countered by another Kamui. Hyperbole is when a certain statement cannot be reiterated in any form of context as them being truly outlandish in essence per say, "Hashirama can destroy the whole planet with Shinsuusenju"---> such is hyperbolic sentence, not Itachi is Invincible, as it goes perfectly with canon portrayal and, powers Itachi wield, other than Spirit tool. The irony is something becomes fabled when it doe s something really miraculous to the human eye, like So6p creating the whole universe with Nunoboku no Ken, not because of made up falsity, as many miscontrue. Same case with Yata, fabled becuase of past showcase of immense power, hence leading people who never seen it eye to eye to consider them a fable, the DB clarify that Totsuka's existence is unknown to 98% of the planet, only a few know about it's identity let alone thier raw power. Itachi gave orders hence not even Pain knew his real power but knew enough to be fearful in his presence, he didnt kill Akatsuki as he doesn't have killing intent almost all the time, he let Orochimaru, a cannonically trulu evil villain get away
> 
> ...



Did you just do a Turrin?


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## Gohara (Jul 9, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> Pain was called a "god". Though hyperbolic, it symbolizes his superiority to the other Akatsuki members, bar maybe Obito.



I wonder that.  Itachi's character is acting in that organization and as such I don't think that rank matters.  The paths version of Nagato's character is also not the actual leader of that organization.  I agree that the hype being used for Itachi's character is hyperbole however the same is arguable for both characters.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lawrence777 (Jul 9, 2018)

It'd be a titanic battle and Pain wouldn't low diff him but I can't see Itachi winning much.
I think he can get farther than Naruto/Jiraiya though.

Arsenal wise we're looking at:
5+ large summons, including 1 airborne flyer and Cereberus
Asura missiles, head cannon, physical strength (assists movements)
Human
Reviver
Preta
Deva
And 10 or so pairs of eyes on Itachi altogether.

Itachi got V4 yata totsuka tsukiyomi and amaterasu.

Pain firepower and shared vision accuracy will sooner or later force Itachi camp in V4. It can block everything from Animal/Asura/Hell/human but is vulnerable to BT and Preta absorption and combos involving the 2.

I don't think BT can pull Itachi out of Susano, it'd pull the whole construct unless Susano were anchored or held down imo. This is still dangerous and ground smashing maybe necessary to protect from Preta without risking absorption.

 On the bright side Itachi can still use offensive attacks while he turtles simultaneously at the expense of more chakra expenditure. So what can he do?

He has shurikenjutsu and clone feints- less effective with rinnegan shared vision  + full knowledge, but he's bypassed (less) eyes before and I'd give him benefit of doubt of getting off 1 physical feint under these circumstances but Pain won't fall for it again.

Tsukiyomi, but pain is useless against Pain I think. Maybe if it were used directly on Nagato himself but offtopic. Still, I think he can immobolize bodies with paralysis through direct eye contact at least temporarily or alternatively make them see false things.

Amaterasu, can take down multiple summons including Cereberus. I think he can store it in a crow for long range usage as well, may come in handy vs the flyer. He can oneshot Animal/human/hell/asura with it but they can be protected via Gakido Deva(every 5 sec) or revived via Hell or if he knows it's coming Asura can sacrifice himself also by getting in between or being summoned. Gakido is not physically fast enough to intercept it imo.
Pain has counters to Amaterasu but Itachi can do some serious damage depending how he plays it.

Totsuka, ohko against same targets as Amaterasu, costs less, but slower and easier to evade. The fuinjutsu not doing anything here Amaterasu isn't already. 

So Itachi victory lies through V4 tanking everything and not getting absorbed, while Totsuka/Amaterasu/paralysis genjutsu and trickery genjutsu(feints,redirection see Deidara) do work before he dies from exhaustion. If he can remove Gakido permanently his chance of mowing them down in time rises sharply.

Itachi tanks everything as long as V4 is up protecting Itachi, aside from BT( but does he really want a Yata Mirror Totsuka armed V4 chakra mech right adjacent to him?) I believe ST and even CST can be blocked as long as Itachi makes sure Yata mirror is facing it and not the construct itself.

The way this goes though is Pain won't tire. Pain will keep spamming missiles,summons,Preta absorption, and BT/ST. Forever. All Pain has to do to win is keep 10 eyes on Itachi and continually use just enough stuff to bog him down in Susano until he dies. He doesn't even have to stay in range of Itachi the whole time.

If Itachi can kill Preta he will mow down the others pretty fast imo. Even if it's a temporary kill he can do alot of damage to the others. I think Pain wins most of the time 7/10 mid diff but if Itachi plays it perfectly he could win the 3/10 of the time he takes out Gakido high or extreme difficulty. Maybe a dust cloud blocks los temporarily and he genjutsu feints Asura into launching a missile or Animal into crashing a bird into Preta. Or he gets Preta himself somehow.

Or Pain just uses CT and kills Itachi 100% of the time. He can't stop or escape it imo.  Pain can still fall back and use it even if everything goes perfectly for Itachi as long as Deva alive. Or he can just use it at start. But that's a high diff victory for Pain if he resorts to that imo(not extreme or max difficulty by any means).

There not same tier and Pains stronger clearly, considering all the shinobi and jonin he killed then village he destroyed then chakra deprivation coma he forced Tsunade into then soloing SM Naruto and everyone else worth a damn on toad mountain then battling and soloing KN6-8 then running SM Naruto out of chakra a second time then reviving all the thousands of people he killed prior.. Because he has the chakra to do that all straight without rest.. because he's Pain. 

So it's not even a question really of whose rawly stronger as I don't think author intent can be made much clearer, it's just 1vs1 and in that context Itachi can do some serious damage if he plays his cards right.


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## ARGUS (Jul 9, 2018)

Sage light said:


> I think the Databooks differentiate between Itachis and Madaras Magatamas, both arent the same, Madara doesnt even call it Magatama as far as I know, meaning, its as irrelevant as the extra susanoo blades his and every other susanoo wields. *Whereas Itachis is different, it has a special sharingan like pattern and is implied to be a Ethereal Weapon from the info that it can travel miles of distance without losing velocity, meaning, it has some sort of supernatural power, and not a common bead like Madaras*.


at this point youre making up facts now, and its making your argument look really weak  
both madaras and itachis magatamas look exactly the same, and are utilised the exact same way 
madaras V3 > itachis V3 based on feats
6 magatama >> 3 magatama 
so if 6 magatama failed to budge an entity far weaker than kyuubi who was momentarily immobilised by FRS, then no matter how you see it, its clear as day that FRS >>>>> YM when those 3 magatama are the strongest long range offense that itachi wields 

using databoook differentiation is a terrible argument here when the databook doesnt say that rikud sasuke has PS either yet its clear as day he does 



> Do you really believe crater is the accurate measurement for potency of attack? I don't think so, even. Certain attacks like Night Guy do not emit tangible force enough to create large craters like say, what Bijudama create, *though, its the stronger attack. Im sure Itachis one is superior by the fact Kishi gave him exact weapons in Japanese Mythology for symbolism, so Yasaka is in thier league(other two tools), *obviously


What are you talking about,?? why do you keep bringing up mythology when youre not basing it off any manga facts whatsoever? 

i have seen that sabre has already countered the crater notion of argument but to put it to perspective 
a more potent bomb would yield a larger explosion for the same reason that V2 juubis TBB which was far smaller in bomb size than naruto and bees combined TBB, still yielded an explosion which was exponentially larger 

comparing attacks like Night Guy is a terrible argument because it is taijutsu 


> I dont think Physics can be applied literally in Naruto, not to mention it could Itachis reluctance to do such, considering his inability to make himself go all out and reveal his true power. What's clear is they're weapons created by some ethereal god and Susanoo being special type of Chakra Construct


Itachi told everyone to use their strongest long range offense when dealing with CT.
he used his, naruto used his and bee used his 

manga has shown that itachis offense wasnt enough which was why it took all 3 of them to beat nagato 
so stop the notion of etherreal god or mythology when kishi has already implied itachi cant deal with CT alone 



> Sasuke's V1 is crushing through hard bridges which did not allow Susanoo arrow, a really hyped attack, to phase through. CT in the end is mere rock, V4 is the strongest non-legged version, *YT can deflect the gravity pull, also, if it prove detrimenta*l


CT is mere rock yet a KN6 TBB which is  a stronger offense than any of itachis attacks, was still tanked 
CT is mere rock yet it took rikudo naruto and sasukes to use attacks like BDRS or full PS slashes to take it down when the same V1 susanoo can crush through hard bridges 

@bold - at this pooint i cant take any of arguments seriously because if that was the case, susanoo would hvae been able to fly at the very least but its not so stop it 



> After Itachi died. This isnt taking account that Minato cannonically implied Tobi is mind manipulating Pain, into doing his fray, Zetsu being in partnership with Tobi. Itachi is the reason they didnt attack leaf for 8 years, no way he is stronger than him


mind manipulating because Tobi was using Peins hatred against him.
doesnt change the fact that Tobi himself called Pein almost invincible 
doesnt change the fact that Tobi knew he cant take down the leaf alone which was why he needed Pein 
doesnt change the fact that Zetsu who knew the ins and outs of Both Tobi and Pein claimed that its impossible for Pein to lose whilst knowing fullly well that TObi already got schooled by Minato 

Itachi is the reason Tobi didnt attack but were not comparing Itachi to Tobi
we are comparing Itachi to Pein, and the latters CT was canonically shown to be something Itachi cant deal with alone and needed 2 more of shinobi on the same level as him to take it down


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 10, 2018)

ARGUS said:


> at this point youre making up facts now, and its making your argument look really weak
> both madaras and itachis magatamas look exactly the same, and are utilised the exact same way
> madaras V3 > itachis V3 based on feats
> 6 magatama >> 3 magatama
> ...


But its clear as day they arent the same. Judging by thier design and background. It has a background of being the strongest weapon in Japan along with kusanagi and yata. Kishi wouldnt take such portrayal and not make them not connected in power in the series in the least. Its likely a spirit projectile like former two hence it can travel miles with such force. The only thing we've seen travelling such distances without losing velocity is Juubi's TBB. Itachi's words about his techniques cannot be taken serious considering he lied about being perfect to Sasuke when actually was. DB not mentioning Sasuke as PS user is due to it being confirmed in series and shown, that PS can be wield by anyone with Rikudo powers. Eg: Frog Kata is stated be wield by Minato and, Jiriaya inspite them not showing it in the series becuase they havent shown it yet. Madara's dont look like Itachi's and he doesnt have the mystical weapons for us to parallel


> What are you talking about,?? why do you keep bringing up mythology when youre not basing it off any manga facts whatsoever?


Im basing it off manga facts, the triplet utmost superior weapons,  itachi possesw are from mythology and, strongest weapons in said mythology. Kishi followed the same pattern and gave them to itachi, how come his magatama is not ethereal spirit, following the pattern we've been given? No that's not possible and, logically incorrect


> i have seen that sabre has already countered the crater notion of argument but to put it to perspective
> a more potent bomb would yield a larger explosion for the same reason that V2 juubis TBB which was far smaller in bomb size than naruto and bees combined TBB, still yielded an explosion which was exponentially larger
> 
> comparing attacks like Night Guy is a terrible argument because it is taijutsu
> ...


Thats because he'll contradict his partnership belief if he does everything himself and doesnt take help from many. He will have flawlessly wrecked CT otherwise, was he not holding back for his philosphical viewpoint


> CT is mere rock yet a KN6 TBB which is  a stronger offense than any of itachis attacks, was still tanked
> CT is mere rock yet it took rikudo naruto and sasukes to use attacks like BDRS or full PS slashes to take it down when the same V1 susanoo can crush through hard bridges
> 
> @bold - at this pooint i cant take any of arguments seriously because if that was the case, susanoo would hvae been able to fly at the very least but its not so stop it


CT is extremely powerful maybe top 3 strongest techniques but that does not mean itachi cant break it, it just means he isnt willing to break it alone due to Naruto Bee being beside him, plus ethereality sure make things fly and, itachi can do that, he just hasnt shown it yet due to his vast history of holding back his power, extremely.


> mind manipulating because Tobi was using Peins hatred against him.
> doesnt change the fact that Tobi himself called Pein almost invincible
> doesnt change the fact that Tobi knew he cant take down the leaf alone which was why he needed Pein
> doesnt change the fact that Zetsu who knew the ins and outs of Both Tobi and Pein claimed that its impossible for Pein to lose whilst knowing fullly well that TObi already got schooled by Minato
> ...


He asked Pain to go destroy leaf but why not go there himself and kidnap the youngsters using Kamui and use them as hostage to give them Naruto? And, if an easier method doesnt suffice, just use Bijuu to wreck the leaf? He didnt go attack it himself becuase he acquired trauma from all the days he was living fearing itachi's power, just after itachi death he asked his lackey to attaack leaf thats clear by scan portrayal, plus Tobi saying that is due to him being invincible through immortality, databook fact, you can confirm it in the 3rd databook of Akatsuki, and Pain's. Also, Itachi's power is masked in mystery, just becuase he didnt break CT doesnt mean he cant, he just doesnt like contradicting his philosophy, which pertain he require the cooperation of fellow mates. I always wondered why people felt the need to accuse him of lack of firepower when, the blatant narrative in the panel is clear, and it isn't about how his firepower isn't stronger than CT but rather he depends on friends becuase he thinks doing everything oneself'll lead to pride


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## Mawt (Jul 10, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Pain could be the strongest member in the Akatsuki, but not Invincible. Invincibility is a state of being immune to defeat, Pain have limited chakra reserves, limited stamina, limited hax powers. Hell, his greatest ST which reduced his lifeforce destroyed a whole village but, couldnt kill a single shinobi. Hanzo escaped Prime Nagato's Killing Intent Soul Dragon, Pain himself implied Prime Hanzo beat's him, plus the Invincible Quote is due to him having a secret of using puppets to attack enemy and, when they're unaware, strike from behind. 3rd Databooks clears it, so there is context as proven, not to mention "unbeatable" is stated in terms of what's known currently, as in, not being beaten until now, and Im sure he isn't been stated to be Unbeatable but Invincible, which's context I've stated already, another Konan statement imply he's never lost a battle, but that cannot translate to Invincibility but just overwhelming power which kept him from being defeated, plus "God" is a title 5 shinobi have in real world and, a Clan of Shinobi have in the ethereal world, i.e, Otsutsuki, being a God doesnt guarantee Invincibility nor should it be taken as being Invincible but rather really really powerful like Hagoromo, Kaguya, both of them cannonically defeated, and only called "Immortal", Hell, Juubidara who was growing closer to Kaguya in strength bragged he was just Immortal, not Invincible, proving the validity of Itachi's Hype and, Spirit Tools, hype not to mention a being who cannonically witnessed the whole Indra Incarnate and, Ashura Incarnate, and Madara Hashirama Senju Uchiha, Uzumaki Otsutsuki Kaguya Power, thought and completely believed Itachi is Invincible, absolutely. There's an "!" Mark when Zetsu says he's Unbeatable proving, the gregariousity of said hype, Pain's statement was said with period ending in sentence, proving the underwhelming inferiority of hype, Pain never attacked leaf because of Itachi, the akatsuki, his team, feared former tremendously, considering how Tobi halted his plans for 8 years since 4th Hokage's death not to mention he had possession of 7 Biju Beasts + Rinnegan and Hidan's Unique Immortality Technique to ensure his win VS anyone, let alone the leaf, yet he didnt, plus Eighth Gate was stated to increase power 100 times of Hokage, it's hype is substantiated in Shippuden, Itachi having lack of screentime doesn't affect on what he's capable of, him not being the main character, does not affect his performance plus ability plus power plus legacy in the series. SPSM having a weakness doesn't Itachi should have one, not when he's the one who crafted that Quote so he could rewrite it, just like Tsunade rewriting laws of Medical Ninjutsu, this is not including Godly weapons in the first place granted, it isn't Jutsu but rather Spiritual Tools made by an ethereal god containing spiritual sealing technique which cannot be absorbed by preta because its not chakra plus, preta confirmed to absorb Ninjutsu only, DB meant Ninjutsu when saying all Jutsu, things shouldnt be assumed regarding spirit weapon's content due to them bypassing all knowledge knowable in Narutoverse as they differentiate blatantly from likes of chakra, and shouldnt be associated with it, the mere fact Pain acknowledged Itachi's power and took orders from him on not attacking leaf during leaf from his representative obito who is originally the one who is scared white of Itachi, he took latter's word of mouth ultimatum as law of not touching the village and he kept that law till latter deceased, proving latter's fearsomeness. Proving his feared power in the face of pain or obito who factually trembled by the looks of it, Hagoromo Hashirama's powers were legends were they not proven to be true? Yes they were. Why? Because hype is feat directly ie., legends and, fables are created through past visualisation of raw power from such entities hence they become fable, not because they're made up lie, thats nowhere near the truth


I never said Pain is invincible. I agree he isn't. When did Pain imply Hanzo is stronger than him? Konan did call him unbeatable and claimed he hadn't been beaten in two separate scenarios. I also never said God means invincible, but it is still hype that is added to Pain. Zetsu wasn't Kaguya's will during the fight. The fight took place before he was retconned. Proof is Zetsu's shock when he realizes Itachi has activated Susano'o. He even goes as far as to ask what it is. A being who has seen Indra vs Ashura, Madara vs Hashirama, and a lot of other fights throughout history should have known what Susano'o was. Eighth Gate in Part 1 was only stated to be slightly stronger than the Hokage. In Shippuden, it's retconned to being way stronger. I already answered the Akatsuki not attacking the Leaf in my last post. As stated by Zetsu, the Totsuka Blade contains a Sealing Jutsu which seals away anything or anyone it pierces. So yeah, it contains Chakra because it is a Jutsu. Obito was scared white of Itachi? Itachi literally called Obito his mentor and stated he needed the EMS to surpass him. In the novels, it's stated they acknowledged each other as equals. Itachi never ordered Pain. Obito gave Pain the order to attack Konoha before Itachi ever died. Itachi's death was in chapter 398 IIRC. Obito gave the order in chapter 363 or 364. So no, Pain wasn't ever scared. The Akatsuki didn't start collecting Bijuu for 8 years was explained as financial problems (stated in Wind Arc) by Pain, although it doesn't make much sense as Obito had a Mizukage under his control and Pain was the leader of another village. The Akatsuki didn't start capturing ANY Bijuu (except for I think 1 in the novels) before Shippuden. Itachi's ultimatum only restricted the Leaf, so this proves that there was other reasoning than just Itachi being in the way. Unlike Hagoromo and Hashirama who actually have a place in the story to be such Godly figures, Itachi has no place in the story. He's just a prodigy of the Uchiha Clan... Another legend which was stated was that the Uchiha originated from the Hyuga. This was proven false as they originated from Indra Ootsutsuki.



Sage light said:


> No I meant a diamond can be broken by another diamond. Essentially, Kamui can be countered by another Kamui. Hyperbole is when a certain statement cannot be reiterated in any form of context as them being truly outlandish in essence per say, "Hashirama can destroy the whole planet with Shinsuusenju"---> such is hyperbolic sentence, not Itachi is Invincible, as it goes perfectly with canon portrayal and, powers Itachi wield, other than Spirit tool. The irony is something becomes fabled when it doe s something really miraculous to the human eye, like So6p creating the whole universe with Nunoboku no Ken, not because of made up falsity, as many miscontrue. Same case with Yata, fabled becuase of past showcase of immense power, hence leading people who never seen it eye to eye to consider them a fable, the DB clarify that Totsuka's existence is unknown to 98% of the planet, only a few know about it's identity let alone thier raw power. Itachi gave orders hence not even Pain knew his real power but knew enough to be fearful in his presence, he didnt kill Akatsuki as he doesn't have killing intent almost all the time, he let Orochimaru, a cannonically trulu evil villain get away


And again, Itachi has no place in the story to truly be as powerful as is stated. So Itachi just lets an organization that is hoping for the end of the world let around free? He doesn't have to kill them. He can seal them. If the Yata Mirror can repel anything, why couldn't Itachi use it to repel the Edo Tensei binding? Why didn't he own Kabuto with it? Why didn't Itachi one-shot Madara across the planet with the Totsuka Blade? 



Sage light said:


> He is stated in contextual manner becuase identity of Paths is real reason of immortality of his, Naruto figured it out and, exploited it hence the hype resolved and lay at rest without any contradiction to said hype


Okay, so are you telling me Hagoromo can't beat Pain without knowing his identity? 



Sage light said:


> When enhancing with chakra he stream's it with Chidori as can be visually configured, whereas when he does not use it, visual confirmation suggest the blade being in-amped with lightning chakra, chidori stream to be precise


Both times he cut and pierced Madara, there was no Chakra shown whatsoever. And I know for a fact that Chakra doesn't have to be shown for it to be there. If that were the case, then every time Madara looked at somebody, we would see their Chakra network as we did with Eighth Gate Guy, but that didn't happen. 



Sage light said:


> That's weird
> 
> He fell off his bird and suddenly lost conciousness for some reason. Wait..


I reread the scene in the Manga, and it's shown Nagato uses ST before he's fully controlled by Kabuto. So yes, Nagato didn't absorb Amaterasu because Kabuto was awestruck. Otherwise, Kabuto would have had Nagato dispel Nagato way earlier. Besides, we've canonically seen Madara and Kabuto absorb Amaterasu. Why couldn't Nagato do the same?


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## Mawt (Jul 10, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> I was going to read that, but I realized it was an essay


I normally don't write essays, but I had to.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 10, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> I never said Pain is invincible. I agree he isn't. When did Pain imply Hanzo is stronger than him? Konan did call him unbeatable and claimed he hadn't been beaten in two separate scenarios. I also never said God means invincible, but it is still hype that is added to Pain. Zetsu wasn't Kaguya's will during the fight. The fight took place before he was retconned. Proof is Zetsu's shock when he realizes Itachi has activated Susano'o. He even goes as far as to ask what it is. A being who has seen Indra vs Ashura, Madara vs Hashirama, and a lot of other fights throughout history should have known what Susano'o was. Eighth Gate in Part 1 was only stated to be slightly stronger than the Hokage. In Shippuden, it's retconned to being way stronger. I already answered the Akatsuki not attacking the Leaf in my last post. As stated by Zetsu, the Totsuka Blade contains a Sealing Jutsu which seals away anything or anyone it pierces. So yeah, it contains Chakra because it is a Jutsu. Obito was scared white of Itachi? Itachi literally called Obito his mentor and stated he needed the EMS to surpass him. In the novels, it's stated they acknowledged each other as equals. Itachi never ordered Pain. Obito gave Pain the order to attack Konoha before Itachi ever died. Itachi's death was in chapter 398 IIRC. Obito gave the order in chapter 363 or 364. So no, Pain wasn't ever scared. The Akatsuki didn't start collecting Bijuu for 8 years was explained as financial problems (stated in Wind Arc) by Pain, although it doesn't make much sense as Obito had a Mizukage under his control and Pain was the leader of another village. The Akatsuki didn't start capturing ANY Bijuu (except for I think 1 in the novels) before Shippuden. Itachi's ultimatum only restricted the Leaf, so this proves that there was other reasoning than just Itachi being in the way. Unlike Hagoromo and Hashirama who actually have a place in the story to be such Godly figures, Itachi has no place in the story. He's just a prodigy of the Uchiha Clan... Another legend which was stated was that the Uchiha originated from the Hyuga. This was proven false as they originated from Indra Ootsutsuki.


Sure they didnt capture the Biju until late but that doesnt prove why Tobi decided to put a full stop after Itachi's warning. Heck the very fact he send the weakest members of Akatsuki to fight the Hidden Leaf all alone with no sense-evading tactic to bypass Konoha's Sensing Barrier, prove he was forced to send the weakest duo to capture Naruto Uzumaki, Jinchuuriki of Kyuubi/Nine Tails. Tobi knew about Itachi's plan to die at Sasuke's hands hence him giving the order beforehand. Come to think of it, why didnt the Akatsuki capture any Bijuu for so many years? And regrouped only after 8 years since Orochimaru left? Because of Itachi, his pacifistic nature kept them from attacking any Jinchuuriki, only when he was in his last moments of death were they starting collecting the Biju, cause Itachi knew had he not allowed it, the very moment after his death, the Akatsuki'd destroy the whole villages in search of Jinchuuriki, so rather it was an easy choice for him to allow capture the Jinchuuriki alone and not let them destroy the villages, not to mention he doesnt like dirtying his hands killing the Akatsuki himself, hes someone who chooses words over force, look at how many times he reiterated Sasuke to not hurt a Perfect powerful Sage Mode user like Kabuto, they werent fighting a kid, yet he took utmost precaution against an evil entity, that stands to proof on why Akatsuki Pain Tobi lived due to his mercy. Financial Problems? What financial problems when Pain alone can kill the Daimyo secretly and take money, them being the richest people on planet. Manga blatantly stated no one opposed Akatsuki, containing a God, a Space Time Ninjutsu user who surpassed the Fourth in ST technique, other than Itachi, who actively opposed but still didnt have the heart to kill them. Eighth Gate was stated to give power hundred times that of Hokage, there are five kage in the world, each kage represent 20% of 100% power, multiplically, as was reiterated in war, that the, Gates give more power than Gokage. Uchiha originated from Kaguya who is the mother of Hyuuga, her primary power is Byakugan. Jutsu not equate to Chakra, jutsu mean's technique in Japanese. Using a sword with a differentiated pattern of motion is a technique hence a jutsu but do not use chakra.


> And again, Itachi has no place in the story to truly be as powerful as is stated. So Itachi just lets an organization that is hoping for the end of the world let around free? He doesn't have to kill them. He can seal them. If the Yata Mirror can repel anything, why couldn't Itachi use it to repel the Edo Tensei binding? Why didn't he own Kabuto with it? Why didn't Itachi one-shot Madara across the planet with the Totsuka Blade?


"Has no place"--> What's your point stating this?

He doesnt let them roam free, he gave them an ultimatum, if they dont follow it, they're done for. Itachi's is the type to wait things out. Instead of killing a seemingly fearful Danzo then and there, knowing he's an evil entity, in desire of Jinchuuriki and Sharingan, he just gives him an ultimatum. To not touch Sasuke. After his dissapearance 13 years ago from leaf, former doesnt touch a hair on Sasuke's head, inspite of possessing a whole section of ANBU including allied shinobi forces like Hanzo's soldiers including foreign affair armies, he was a man with quite the connections, yet, look what he did. 

Itachi never uses his power outlandishly like Tobi does, spamming Kamui, you could ask the same for why he never cast a military force manipulating Genjutsu on the entire world, while he's at it, to stop warfare plus initiate a Pseudo Tsukiyomi to manipulate people into cooperation and, rescue the Jinchuuriki and victims to the Akatsuki, that way. He just doesn't like utilizing his perfect powers, his crow clone feinted a Perfect Sage Mode User Entity, let alone power of his Totsuka. Sealing/reflecting Edo Control is not question when he had his free will, fully, unlike Nagato who was manipulated by Kabuto, he says it twice he was manipulated, Itachi doesnt proving he isnt controlled/manipulated by controller of the Edos, ie., Kabuto. He can do all this, theoretically, doesn't rigidly mean he'll materialize it, given his character 


> Okay, so are you telling me Hagoromo can't beat Pain without knowing his identity?


Hagoromo is a God, like Pain. 

Gods can battle Gods and come, out victorious, as is the narrative portrayed in the Manga. Another example please. Godly entities are known for accomplishing miraculous things, Pain's unbeatable status miraculously become beatable, as they're similar beings with similar powers, with similar hype (immortality) battling it out, diamond cut's diamond, Hagoromo has Hell King, he's the original one who created and, appointed it in Hell, for Nagato to summon, he know's loopholes to said technique, not just that, he have regeneration, superior sensing, everything, added with tiers better Rinnegan, like Lambo is better than Bugatti, in quality. Such a person refute's the hide-and-seek, immortality advantage of the sneaky Pain in a small hideout with two legs broken, it's owner controlling those puppets, with exhaustions of chakra plus exhausting of stamina plus, exhausting his secret's viability, Hago being intellectually superior than Naruto SM, figure's it out quickly, given the defeat of the paths give's out his highly regarded secrecy confined core-secret


> Both times he cut and pierced Madara, there was no Chakra shown whatsoever. And I know for a fact that Chakra doesn't have to be shown for it to be there. If that were the case, then every time Madara looked at somebody, we would see their Chakra network as we did with Eighth Gate Guy, but that didn't happen.


There was Chakra shown though, when slicing there, was an aura, a sleek aura, of chakra embodiying the blade, later he stab's Madara straightforward, there is no sign of chakra induction seen, Yes chakra enhancements are visually forecasted, Asuma's Chakra Blades, Sasuke's Kusanagi, Kakashi's Raikiri Kunai, as is the rest, though, the above is what come's to mind 


> I reread the scene in the Manga, and it's shown Nagato uses ST before he's fully controlled by Kabuto. So yes, Nagato didn't absorb Amaterasu because Kabuto was awestruck. Otherwise, Kabuto would have had Nagato dispel Nagato way earlier. Besides, we've canonically seen Madara and Kabuto absorb Amaterasu. Why couldn't Nagato do the same?


The simple answer'd be Nagato was controlled from the moment he repelled Amaterasu, though, I think there's a deeper reason for it. Madara used a different absorption, as does Kabuto, plus latter never absorbed but complimented it, There's implications that, Ama, is a fire from hell, summoned by the user, as does third databook reiterate, it couldnt possibly be absorbed


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 11, 2018)

Massive respect to @Itachiisinvincible for even trying to make this wank filled and wank fuelled debate moderately grounded. I take a break a break, dome back and the wank is still strong and it has transformed to calling fan fantasy and head cannon as proof.
I also read "hype is always greater than fact" somewhere.... 
Jesus Christ.


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## Mr Dicklesworth (Jul 11, 2018)

Jeez, I come back to this thread and there’s literal half page long essays written that contain nothing but bullshit.

Why can’t Nagato absorb Amaterasu? Stop using the nerfed version of him that Kabuto initially sent as an example. Considering he literally lay on the ground for a full chapter, and had a bunch of panels then dedicated to showing him waking up and gaining his power back; it’s pretty fucking obvious the initial version of him was jobbed to hell.

And are we really stooping to literally analyzing every centimeter of a panel to see if Sasuke’s sword has chakra drawn in it? What the fuck does that even have to do with the topic at hand?

Itachi still loses mid diff. Case closed


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 11, 2018)

Mr Dicklesworth said:


> Jeez, I come back to this thread and there’s literal half page long essays written that contain nothing but bullshit.
> 
> Why can’t Nagato absorb Amaterasu? Stop using the nerfed version of him that Kabuto initially sent as an example. Considering he literally lay on the ground for a full chapter, and had a bunch of panels then dedicated to showing him waking up and gaining his power back; it’s pretty fucking obvious the initial version of him was jobbed to hell.
> 
> ...


If that interfered with his capability to absorb, it'd have been blatantly stated. 

He can't use village ST, he'll get killed by his attack, because of reflecting properties of Yata


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Jul 11, 2018)

Quick question

What would happen of Itachi uses Tsukuyomi on one of the six path of pain like Deva or Asura? Because you need to make eye contact for the attack to work but the six path are manually controlled corpses. Would looking them in the eyes have the same effect as if staring into Nagato's real eyes?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 11, 2018)

Sage light said:


> If that interfered with his capability to absorb, it'd have been blatantly stated.
> 
> He can't use village ST, he'll get killed by his attack, because of reflecting properties of Yata



It didn't, Viz got that wrong.

madara: the clones that were using susano-o won’t be able to absorb the jinton in time...\\
until they're not

That's more correct seeing as Madara himself didn't actually use Susanoo. In fact, the last time he had Susanoo out, he was able to absorb it and Jinton at the same time. 

Ninja will avoid all facts which don't help Itachi.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 11, 2018)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Quick question
> 
> What would happen of Itachi uses Tsukuyomi on one of the six path of pain like Deva or Asura? Because you need to make eye contact for the attack to work but the six path are manually controlled corpses. Would looking them in the eyes have the same effect as if staring into Nagato's real eyes?


He'd be caught in it.

They share the same field of vision, visual illusions initiate through eye contact, a Pain looking in a Sharingan's eye is same as Nagato staring at one


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## Mawt (Jul 11, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Sure they didnt capture the Biju until late but that doesnt prove why Tobi decided to put a full stop after Itachi's warning. Heck the very fact he send the weakest members of Akatsuki to fight the Hidden Leaf all alone with no sense-evading tactic to bypass Konoha's Sensing Barrier, prove he was forced to send the weakest duo to capture Naruto Uzumaki, Jinchuuriki of Kyuubi/Nine Tails. Tobi knew about Itachi's plan to die at Sasuke's hands hence him giving the order beforehand. Come to think of it, why didnt the Akatsuki capture any Bijuu for so many years? And regrouped only after 8 years since Orochimaru left? Because of Itachi, his pacifistic nature kept them from attacking any Jinchuuriki, only when he was in his last moments of death were they starting collecting the Biju, cause Itachi knew had he not allowed it, the very moment after his death, the Akatsuki'd destroy the whole villages in search of Jinchuuriki, so rather it was an easy choice for him to allow capture the Jinchuuriki alone and not let them destroy the villages, not to mention he doesnt like dirtying his hands killing the Akatsuki himself, hes someone who chooses words over force, look at how many times he reiterated Sasuke to not hurt a Perfect powerful Sage Mode user like Kabuto, they werent fighting a kid, yet he took utmost precaution against an evil entity, that stands to proof on why Akatsuki Pain Tobi lived due to his mercy. Financial Problems? What financial problems when Pain alone can kill the Daimyo secretly and take money, them being the richest people on planet. Manga blatantly stated no one opposed Akatsuki, containing a God, a Space Time Ninjutsu user who surpassed the Fourth in ST technique, other than Itachi, who actively opposed but still didnt have the heart to kill them. Eighth Gate was stated to give power hundred times that of Hokage, there are five kage in the world, each kage represent 20% of 100% power, multiplically, as was reiterated in war, that the, Gates give more power than Gokage. Uchiha originated from Kaguya who is the mother of Hyuuga, her primary power is Byakugan. Jutsu not equate to Chakra, jutsu mean's technique in Japanese. Using a sword with a differentiated pattern of motion is a technique hence a jutsu but do not use chakra.


Itachi's deal was that Tobi should not attack Konoha or harm Sasuke, at the exchange that he'd help him exact revenge on the Uchiha (he thought he was Madara, who he read about and learned the Uchiha betrayed him, and Obito was acting as Madara so he agreed). Had nothing to do with other villages, so no. There's nothing to prove Obito told Pain to send Kakuzu and Hidan to Konoha. And besides, even if he did do that, then the deal was broken because no matter how weak somebody is, he still sent somebody against Konoha. And by the way, I'm about to debunk this whole "they are scared of Itachi" thing. Okay, so as we know, Itachi made a deal with Danzo which stated that Danzo could not touch Sasuke, or else Itachi would reveal the secrets of Konoha to every single enemy nation. And what does Danzo do? He sends Sai to assassinate Sasuke in the beginning of Shippuden. What does Itachi do after this? Nothing. His threat did nothing. Danzo tries to kill Sasuke again during the Five Kage Summit. So, if DANZO isn't scared of Itachi, why would the Akatsuki be? And btw, it doesn't matter if Danzo did this secretly. It still proves that the Akatsuki could have done the same exact thing without Itachi knowing. In the novels, Kisame even stated he'd kill Itachi if he betrayed the organization. And obviously Obito waited until Itachi's death. Tell me how logical it is if Obito, who knows Itachi is near death and knows how he intends to die in a short while by his younger brother, attacks Konoha instead of waiting it out and using Itachi's truth in order to manipulate Sasuke to help the Akatsuki. Said help results in a portion of Gyuki being captured which results in the revival of the Juubi. Two more proofs: 1) Why would Obito even recruit Itachi if he was scared of him? 2) Obito recruited Itachi when Obito was 24. Obito attacked Konoha when he was 14. That gave him 10 years in between to capture the Bijuu AND we know for a fact that Obito already had a run-in with child Itach. If he viewed him as soembody he'd be scared of, he'd kill him. What stops Obito from killing Itachi while he's asleep? What? Will Itachi have his Susano'o activated while he's asleep? So do you see how ludicrous it is to claim Itachi prevented the Akatsuki from their wills? The answer is written very clearly. The answer is the Akatsuki moved slowly due to plot. Pain literally stated the Akatsuki were trying to gain money before their world-scale plans. Stated in the Wind Arc. And exactly, Pain could easily assassinate the daimyo. Why not? For plot. Nope. Hyuga originated from Hamura's descendants which went back to the Earth. Kaguya came from the Ootsutsuki. From Kaguya came Hagoromo. From Hagoromo came Indra. From Indra came the Uchiha. Eighth Gate was only stated to be sllightly stronger than the Hokage in Part 1. In Shippuden, it's tens of times stronger than the Gokage. Yes, Jutsu means technique in Japanese. In Naruto, Jutsu have Chakra. 



Sage light said:


> "Has no place"--> What's your point stating this?
> 
> He doesnt let them roam free, he gave them an ultimatum, if they dont follow it, they're done for. Itachi's is the type to wait things out. Instead of killing a seemingly fearful Danzo then and there, knowing he's an evil entity, in desire of Jinchuuriki and Sharingan, he just gives him an ultimatum. To not touch Sasuke. After his dissapearance 13 years ago from leaf, former doesnt touch a hair on Sasuke's head, inspite of possessing a whole section of ANBU including allied shinobi forces like Hanzo's soldiers including foreign affair armies, he was a man with quite the connections, yet, look what he did.
> 
> Itachi never uses his power outlandishly like Tobi does, spamming Kamui, you could ask the same for why he never cast a military force manipulating Genjutsu on the entire world, while he's at it, to stop warfare plus initiate a Pseudo Tsukiyomi to manipulate people into cooperation and, rescue the Jinchuuriki and victims to the Akatsuki, that way. He just doesn't like utilizing his perfect powers, his crow clone feinted a Perfect Sage Mode User Entity, let alone power of his Totsuka. Sealing/reflecting Edo Control is not question when he had his free will, fully, unlike Nagato who was manipulated by Kabuto, he says it twice he was manipulated, Itachi doesnt proving he isnt controlled/manipulated by controller of the Edos, ie., Kabuto. He can do all this, theoretically, doesn't rigidly mean he'll materialize it, given his character


My argument is that Itachi doesn't have a place in the story to be such a godly figure, unlike Hagoromo or Hashirama. Therefore, his hype doesn't need to be true like Hashi's or Hag's. 

Ironic since I just gave an example of Danzo sending Sai to assassinate Sasuke. And what did Itachi do? Nothing. 

Or...Itachi could just not have the power to do all this. You'd think somebody with the wisdom of a Hokage at the age of 7 would know what's best for the world, yet he let the world in even more turmoil by letting the Akatsuki roam around free and letting Sasuke turn out that way. So, either accept Itachi doesn't have such great power or say that Itachi is a villain for not doing anything despite having all this power. 



Sage light said:


> Hagoromo is a God, like Pain.
> 
> Gods can battle Gods and come, out victorious, as is the narrative portrayed in the Manga. Another example please. Godly entities are known for accomplishing miraculous things, Pain's unbeatable status miraculously become beatable, as they're similar beings with similar powers, with similar hype (immortality) battling it out, diamond cut's diamond, Hagoromo has Hell King, he's the original one who created and, appointed it in Hell, for Nagato to summon, he know's loopholes to said technique, not just that, he have regeneration, superior sensing, everything, added with tiers better Rinnegan, like Lambo is better than Bugatti, in quality. Such a person refute's the hide-and-seek, immortality advantage of the sneaky Pain in a small hideout with two legs broken, it's owner controlling those puppets, with exhaustions of chakra plus exhausting of stamina plus, exhausting his secret's viability, Hago being intellectually superior than Naruto SM, figure's it out quickly, given the defeat of the paths give's out his highly regarded secrecy confined core-secret


Okay, no need for such a big answer. Just answer this. If Hagoromo is physically incapable of learning Pain's Jutsu, do you think he can win? 



Sage light said:


> There was Chakra shown though, when slicing there, was an aura, a sleek aura, of chakra embodiying the blade, later he stab's Madara straightforward, there is no sign of chakra induction seen, Yes chakra enhancements are visually forecasted, Asuma's Chakra Blades, Sasuke's Kusanagi, Kakashi's Raikiri Kunai, as is the rest, though, the above is what come's to mind


Okay, and as I just gave an example, not every time Chakra is shown does it have to be shown. Limbo sometimes isn't shown. Other times, it's shown. Can you highlight where the aura is shown? I don't see it. 



Sage light said:


> The simple answer'd be Nagato was controlled from the moment he repelled Amaterasu, though, I think there's a deeper reason for it. Madara used a different absorption, as does Kabuto, plus latter never absorbed but complimented it, There's implications that, Ama, is a fire from hell, summoned by the user, as does third databook reiterate, it couldnt possibly be absorbed


But... Amaterasu is a Ninjutsu. Preta is stated to absorb all Ninjutsu. Madara used different absorption, sure. Doesn't matter. It's absorbing Chakra.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 11, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> Itachi's deal was that Tobi should not attack Konoha or harm Sasuke, at the exchange that he'd help him exact revenge on the Uchiha (he thought he was Madara, who he read about and learned the Uchiha betrayed him, and Obito was acting as Madara so he agreed). Had nothing to do with other villages, so no. There's nothing to prove Obito told Pain to send Kakuzu and Hidan to Konoha. And besides, even if he did do that, then the deal was broken because no matter how weak somebody is, he still sent somebody against Konoha. And by the way, I'm about to debunk this whole "they are scared of Itachi" thing. Okay, so as we know, Itachi made a deal with Danzo which stated that Danzo could not touch Sasuke, or else Itachi would reveal the secrets of Konoha to every single enemy nation. And what does Danzo do? He sends Sai to assassinate Sasuke in the beginning of Shippuden. What does Itachi do after this? Nothing. His threat did nothing. Danzo tries to kill Sasuke again during the Five Kage Summit. So, if DANZO isn't scared of Itachi, why would the Akatsuki be? And btw, it doesn't matter if Danzo did this secretly. It still proves that the Akatsuki could have done the same exact thing without Itachi knowing. In the novels, Kisame even stated he'd kill Itachi if he betrayed the organization. And obviously Obito waited until Itachi's death. Tell me how logical it is if Obito, who knows Itachi is near death and knows how he intends to die in a short while by his younger brother, attacks Konoha instead of waiting it out and using Itachi's truth in order to manipulate Sasuke to help the Akatsuki. Said help results in a portion of Gyuki being captured which results in the revival of the Juubi. Two more proofs: 1) Why would Obito even recruit Itachi if he was scared of him? 2) Obito recruited Itachi when Obito was 24. Obito attacked Konoha when he was 14. That gave him 10 years in between to capture the Bijuu AND we know for a fact that Obito already had a run-in with child Itach. If he viewed him as soembody he'd be scared of, he'd kill him. What stops Obito from killing Itachi while he's asleep? What? Will Itachi have his Susano'o activated while he's asleep? So do you see how ludicrous it is to claim Itachi prevented the Akatsuki from their wills? The answer is written very clearly. The answer is the Akatsuki moved slowly due to plot. Pain literally stated the Akatsuki were trying to gain money before their world-scale plans. Stated in the Wind Arc. And exactly, Pain could easily assassinate the daimyo. Why not? For plot. Nope. Hyuga originated from Hamura's descendants which went back to the Earth. Kaguya came from the Ootsutsuki. From Kaguya came Hagoromo. From Hagoromo came Indra. From Indra came the Uchiha. Eighth Gate was only stated to be sllightly stronger than the Hokage in Part 1. In Shippuden, it's tens of times stronger than the Gokage. Yes, Jutsu means technique in Japanese. In Naruto, Jutsu have Chakra.
> 
> 
> My argument is that Itachi doesn't have a place in the story to be such a godly figure, unlike Hagoromo or Hashirama. Therefore, his hype doesn't need to be true like Hashi's or Hag's.
> ...


Im not gonna touch on any of this, as I've already said what need's to be said. I don't care if you like it or not. You're repeating fallacies again, instead of referencing the Manga instead and simply coming to false conclusions. Please read the Manga.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 12, 2018)

Sage light said:


> He'd be caught in it.
> 
> They share the same field of vision, visual illusions initiate through eye contact, a Pain looking in a Sharingan's eye is same as Nagato staring at one


What the fuck did I just read. This has to be the result of some really good stuff.
It's like being in a room with  cc cams, so you look at one of them means you are looking at all of them.
If one of them gets caught in a visual genjutsu means all get caught then why the hell would jiraiya use a sound based one which put him in danger....
Jesus christ talk about head canon and nonsense.

Your statement itself contradicts your conclusion.
Field of vision =/= point of view.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 12, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> What the fuck did I just read. This has to be the result of some really good stuff.
> It's like being in a room with  cc cams, so you look at one of them means you are looking at all of them.
> If one of them gets caught in a visual genjutsu means all get caught then why the hell would jiraiya use a sound based one which put him in danger....
> Jesus christ talk about head canon and nonsense.
> ...


Did you forget Fukasaku just put forth an analogy? It doesn't literally meaning looking from above or below, it just means Nagato looks through the Paths. The Pains vision *are connected. If any one of them look in the eye* it's the same as every six of them looking at it


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 12, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Did you forget Fukasaku just put forth an analogy? It doesn't literally meaning looking from above or below, it just means Nagato looks through the Paths. The Pains vision *are connected. If any one of them look in the eye* it's the same as every six of them looking at it


For gods sake man.... They don't share the same POV always, it is an optional thing. They work like 6 different cc cams. By your logic, when pain is talking to conan, and another path is fighting someone else, pain should be seeing images of the other paths sight and not something in front of him. How do you even think anyone can fight having the same POV for 6 people.
That is exactly why jiraiya went against a visual genjutsu, becaues they don't share POV's.
You just keep ignoring facts, and twist statements to suit your argument and straight up make bs and label it as fact. 
Nothing you have said in this post has proof for it. It explicitly said they can share a vision but they don't share it always. It is a ridiculous notion.


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## Skimandla (Jul 12, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Did you forget Fukasaku just put forth an analogy? It doesn't literally meaning looking from above or below, it just means Nagato looks through the Paths. The Pains vision *are connected. If any one of them look in the eye* it's the same as every six of them looking at it


Nagato = security guard
Pain = Security cam
If one cam(pain)  gets its lens (eyes) painted , the security guard can still see using the 5 cams left. Anything that happens to the cams does not affect him at All
J man puts 3 pains in sound genjutsu , Nagato & the other paths are not affected . Anything the Paths see is sent to Nagato
Deva sends visual information to Nagato not to Asura or any path.
Nagato either resist genjutsu or restart any path

*Pain mid - diff at best*


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 12, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> For gods sake man.... They don't share the same POV always, it is an optional thing. They work like 6 different cc cams. By your logic, when pain is talking to conan, and another path is fighting someone else, pain should be seeing images of the other paths sight and not something in front of him. How do you even think anyone can fight having the same POV for 6 people.
> That is exactly why jiraiya went against a visual genjutsu, becaues they don't share POV's.
> You just keep ignoring facts, and twist statements to suit your argument and straight up make bs and label it as fact.
> Nothing you have said in this post has proof for it. It explicitly said they can share a vision but they don't share it always. It is a ridiculous notion.


Jiraiya doesn't have an ocular genjutsu hence why he opted for sound. All the Paths see a certain thing at the same time. How complex is that to comprehend? And guess who Nagato is? He's the Seventh Path, ie., he share's the same ocular vision, not security camera like, but same field of vision which Ashura used to dodge Kakashi's Raikiri.


Skimandla said:


> Nagato = security guard
> Pain = Security cam
> If one cam(pain)  gets its lens (eyes) painted , the security guard can still see using the 5 cams left. Anything that happens to the cams does not affect him at All
> J man puts 3 pains in sound genjutsu , Nagato & the other paths are not affected . Anything the Paths see is sent to Nagato
> ...


Did you forget Pain do not share the same hearing but just eye sight due to the Rinnegan? I think you did.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 12, 2018)

You realise this isn't like Roxas' data world where you can alter the canon as you like. 



Skimandla said:


> Nagato = security guard
> Pain = Security cam
> If one cam(pain)  gets its lens (eyes) painted , the security guard can still see using the 5 cams left. Anything that happens to the cams does not affect him at All
> J man puts 3 pains in sound genjutsu , Nagato & the other paths are not affected . Anything the Paths see is sent to Nagato
> ...



He doesn't understand.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jul 12, 2018)

To be fair, with full knowledge I think there's a good chance of Itachi going for the Tendō body first. It's the strongest body, and he'll know that he won't be able to win if Chibaku Tensei comes out. If he takes Tendō, and then eliminates the Jigokudō body, the rest of the Six Paths would follow suit as none of them would be able to take on Itachi with Edo Tensei stamina. To be honest, if Itachi fights like he did in the War arc and goes on the offensive while covering himself with Susanoo, he has a decent chance at winning. 

In regards to Chibaku Tensei: I agree that Itachi would lose if it came out. The problem is that, as far as I recall, Nagato needs to deactivate five of the six Paths to use it first (correct me if I'm wrong - I'll concede if I'm mistaken), and I can't see him using a jutsu like that straight off the bat even against Itachi.


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## Shazam (Jul 12, 2018)

Atlantic Storm said:


> To be fair, with full knowledge I think there's a good chance of Itachi going for the Tendō body first. It's the strongest body, and he'll know that he won't be able to win if Chibaku Tensei comes out. If he takes Tendō, and then eliminates the Jigokudō body, the rest of the Six Paths would follow suit as none of them would be able to take on Itachi with Edo Tensei stamina. To be honest, if Itachi fights like he did in the War arc and goes on the offensive while covering himself with Susanoo, he has a decent chance at winning.
> 
> In regards to Chibaku Tensei: I agree that Itachi would lose if it came out. The problem is that, as far as I recall, Nagato needs to deactivate five of the six Paths to use it first (correct me if I'm wrong - I'll concede if I'm mistaken), and I can't see him using a jutsu like that straight off the bat even against Itachi.



A problem I notice often is that people seem to think Deva path is slow. Dude was keeping up pace with KN6.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jul 12, 2018)

Shazam said:


> A problem I notice often is that people seem to think Deva path is slow. Dude was keeping up pace with KN6.


I don't think he's slow, per se, but I would say he's only about as fast as Kakashi which puts him a notch below Itachi. Did he actually keep up with six-tailed Naruto's speed? I don't remember the fight too well; the most I remember is him almost getting rushed and having to Shinra Tensei him away. Or are you referring to the chase scene that took part later?


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## Shazam (Jul 12, 2018)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I don't think he's slow, per se, but I would say he's only about as fast as Kakashi which puts him a notch below Itachi. Did he actually keep up with six-tailed Naruto's speed? I don't remember the fight too well; the most I remember is him almost getting rushed and having to Shinra Tensei him away. Or are you referring to the chase scene that took part later?



Kn6 overall was shown to be faster, but Deva was able to maneuver and make it a challenge. Hence "keeping up pace" with Kn6. While Kn4 was able to tag both Oro and Jiraiya apparently, just scaling from that.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jul 12, 2018)

Shazam said:


> Kn6 overall was shown to be faster, but Deva was able to maneuver and make it a challenge. Hence "keeping up pace" with Kn6. While Kn4 was able to tag both Oro and Jiraiya apparently, just scaling from that.


Fair. I don't believe Itachi can 'speed-blitz' Tendō or anything, but he's certainly fast enough to take advantage of the five second interval weakness of his jutsu, and skilled enough with his attack timings to surprise him - even with shared vision.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 12, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Jiraiya doesn't have an ocular genjutsu hence why he opted for sound. All the Paths see a certain thing at the same time. How complex is that to comprehend? And guess who Nagato is? He's the Seventh Path, ie., he share's the same ocular vision, not security camera like, but same field of vision which Ashura used to dodge Kakashi's Raikiri.
> 
> Did you forget Pain do not share the same hearing but just eye sight due to the Rinnegan? I think you did.


I never said anything about jiraiya having an Occular genjutsu. That is besides the point. 
Let me break this down so that even you can try to understand. If all the pains see the same shit, they cannot be at different parts at the same time because they won't be seeing anything on their own. If they are all seeing the same thing,  going by your logic let us assume all the pains are in six different villages. What will each one of them be looking at??? The shit that is in front of them. If not please give me an answer.
It just breaks the reason behind having six paths if they always see the same thing.
Jiraiya trapped one of the pains and made him see illusions, yet the other pains kicked his shit. 
If they all see the same thing, why the fuck would they split up and search for Naruto if they are going to one thing anyway??? Makes zero sense man.
They are like cameras for nagato and each other, they can see what each other is looking at when they want it. Otherwise they are looking at different stuff.


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## EdoC4 (Jul 12, 2018)

Itachi wins. A person as smart as Itachi understands how to do something as basic as bait out Pain. All he'd have to do is force Pain to use one of the weaker pushes that he uses for typical attacks, activate his Susanoo at that very instant(he could for Kirin), let Susanoo take the damage, and proceed to chop Pain in half if the Susanoo withstood Pain's push.


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## Trojan (Jul 12, 2018)

38 votes! I did not realize we have that many people here...


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 12, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> I never said anything about jiraiya having an Occular genjutsu. That is besides the point.
> Let me break this down so that even you can try to understand. If all the pains see the same shit, they cannot be at different parts at the same time because they won't be seeing anything on their own. If they are all seeing the same thing,  going by your logic let us assume all the pains are in six different villages. What will each one of them be looking at??? The shit that is in front of them. If not please give me an answer.


They'll see all villages *at the same time.*


> It just breaks the reason behind having six paths if they always see the same thing.
> Jiraiya trapped one of the pains and made him see illusions, yet the other pains kicked his shit.


The reason they've 6 Pains is for representing each Path as one body performs only one jutsu. Second, Pain blitzed Jiraiya after the Genjutsu, *it's effect was negated after the sound chakra stopped flowing into thier bodies.*


> If they all see the same thing, why the fuck would they split up and search for Naruto if they are going to one thing anyway??? Makes zero sense man.
> They are like cameras for nagato and each other, they can see what each other is looking at when they want it. Otherwise they are looking at different stuff.


To confuse the enemy plus they all see the same thing at the same time. They dont just have one field of vision. Ashura dodged Raikiri because Deva saw Kakashi, are you saying Ashura couldnt see what's in front of him when he dodged the attack? Cause that'd be ridiculous.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 12, 2018)

Sage light said:


> They'll see all villages *at the same time.*
> 
> The reason they've 6 Pains is for representing each Path as one body performs only one jutsu. Second, Pain blitzed Jiraiya after the Genjutsu, *it's effect was negated after the sound chakra stopped flowing into thier bodies.*
> 
> To confuse the enemy plus they all see the same thing at the same time. They dont just have one field of vision. Ashura dodged Raikiri because Deva saw Kakashi, are you saying Ashura couldnt see what's in front of him when he dodged the attack? Cause that'd be ridiculous.


God damn it man. My exact argument is they don't have a shared pov or fov all the time..
They can switch onto seeing what some one else is seeing if they are blinded. Why is it so hard for you to get it in??? You have no idea what you are talking about.
Answer me this simple question... If they all see the same thing?? Why do they split up to go and search for Jiraiya and Naruto?? What good does splitting up and searching do if they all see the same thing?? And also tell me out of the six who dictates what the others see....
Answer me that.
You are just making stuff up to feed your insane fanboy head cannon.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 12, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> God damn it man. My exact argument is they don't have a shared pov or fov all the time..
> They can switch onto seeing what some one else is seeing if they are blinded. Why is it so hard for you to get it in??? You have no idea what you are talking about.
> Answer me this simple question... If they all see the same thing?? Why do they split up to go and search for Jiraiya and Naruto?? What good does splitting up and searching do if they all see the same thing?? And also tell me out of the six who dictates what the others see....
> Answer me that.
> You are just making stuff up to feed your insane fanboy head cannon.


They've thier own vision plus they've thier fellow Paths vision shared. Meaning they can see a field of view simultaneously together with the 5 other's field of view. You do know you gotta look into a CCTV Camera to know what's happening on screen right? Guess what'd happen then? Itachi's eyes staring at him through his "camera" that is, the Rinnegan'll imediately trap him in the Genjutsu. Is it that hard to understand such a simple elementary concept? I hope not. What do you mean by "Go look for Jiraiya and Naruto"?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 12, 2018)

Sage light said:


> They've thier own vision plus they've thier fellow Paths vision shared. Meaning they can see a field of view simultaneously together with the 5 other's field of view. You do know you gotta look into a CCTV Camera to know what's happening on screen right? Guess what'd happen then? Itachi's eyes staring at him through his "camera" that is, the Rinnegan'll imediately trap him in the Genjutsu. Is it that hard to understand such a simple elementary concept? I hope not. What do you mean by "Go look for Jiraiya and Naruto"?


Wtf . Rinnegan is immune to Occular genjutsu... It is a superior do jutsu. 
You saying they are seeing two things at a time??? Do you even proof read before you post to see how ridiculous it is. Shared vision is an option. Not their prime function. It really doesn't take too hard to grasp it.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 12, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Wtf . Rinnegan is immune to Occular genjutsu... It is a superior do jutsu.
> You saying they are seeing two things at a time??? Do you even proof read before you post to see how ridiculous it is. Shared vision is an option. Not their prime function. It really doesn't take too hard to grasp it.


It isn't an option.

Otherwise Kishi'd have portrayed it whenever they "switched on" shared vision on panel. That's just an excuse you made. I've proof they see all 6 lines of sights at the same time (Ashura dodging Raikiri through God Realm's FOV.)


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 12, 2018)

Sage light said:


> It isn't an option.
> 
> Otherwise Kishi'd have portrayed it whenever they "switched on" shared vision on panel. That's just an excuse you made. I've proof they see all 6 lines of sights at the same time (Ashura dodging Raikiri through God Realm's FOV.)


Says the master of headcanon. 
I also have proof .  I showed it. They wouldn't go hare hunting at different places if they see the same fucking thing wherever they are. Then sharing it always is something you pulled out of somewhere just to facilitate your genjutsu argument, which is moot anyway because rinnegan negs it anyways. 
You show no proof to say they are always sharing it other wise you'd explain how all the six paths can be at different times searching for different stuff if all of then are looking at the same thing. Go on... I am waiting for some answer.... Even bs.. Just humor me . When I have shown proof it is something they can do whenever they want to, because they use it to dodge when It is necessary. Remember when jiraiya tried to punch a path and he ducked.... By your logic that path wasn't looking at jiraiya so none of them should, yet someone else did and he dodged. You theory just failed there. Right there. If all of them share a vision. How did the other paths see jiraiya when one of them couldn't... Answer this...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 12, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Says the master of headcanon.
> I also have proof .  I showed it. They wouldn't go hare hunting at different places if they see the same fucking thing wherever they are. Then sharing it always is something you pulled out of somewhere just to facilitate your genjutsu argument, which is moot anyway because rinnegan negs it anyways.
> You show no proof to say they are always sharing it other wise you'd explain how all the six paths can be at different times searching for different stuff if all of then are looking at the same thing. Go on... I am waiting for some answer.... Even bs.. Just humor me . When I have shown proof it is something they can do whenever they want to, because they use it to dodge when It is necessary. Remember when jiraiya tried to punch a path and he ducked.... By your logic that path wasn't looking at jiraiya so none of them should, yet someone else did and he dodged. You theory just failed there. Right there. If all of them share a vision. How did the other paths see jiraiya when one of them couldn't... Answer this...


Which is what I've been telling you. They share 6 different fields of vision* simultaneously.* Unlike the normal human eye which processes a set part of ocular stimuli at any given moment, Pain sees 6 fields at the same time, no gap between thier ocular stimuli. Deva fighting Kakashi alone in a desert is percieved by Ashura battling Chouji in a forest.


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## Mawt (Jul 12, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Im not gonna touch on any of this, as I've already said what need's to be said. I don't care if you like it or not. You're repeating fallacies again, instead of referencing the Manga instead and simply coming to false conclusions. Please read the Manga.


Fallacies? So you think that claiming Itachi is invincible and that his Yata Mirror can repel any of Pain's attack isn't a fallacy? Funny considering I AM referencing the Manga. I'm trying to use statements in order to contradict or disprove the statements of Itachi. However, because you can't accept it, you're making up fake context for the statements because you don't want Itachi to lose. Your bias is clearly visible. The fact that you think Itachi could stop the entire Akatsuki + 7 Bijuu while he's near blind and ill proves enough your intentions to highball Itachi. I'm done with you.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 12, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> Fallacies? So you think that claiming Itachi is invincible and that his Yata Mirror can repel any of Pain's attack isn't a fallacy? Funny considering I AM referencing the Manga. *I'm trying to use statements in order to contradict or disprove the statements of Itachi*. However, because you can't accept it, you're making up fake context for the statements because you don't want Itachi to lose. Your bias is clearly visible. The fact that you think Itachi could stop the entire Akatsuki + 7 Bijuu while he's near blind and ill proves enough your intentions to highball Itachi. I'm done with you.


Says the guy who kept repeating the "Eighth Gate" is just slightly stronger than the Hokage for the third when I had already debunked that notion with pure facts. Not to mention I've repeated what the Manga has foretold whereas you keep nitpicking it's statements which were implied blatantly and, desperately tryna catch flaws in canon Manga which by itself proves your resort to fanfic. I'm done with you. I got no time to waste with someone who twists cannonical happenings into biased narratives to fit thier premise to stay relevant like you're doing when you got nothing to clutch upon. Bold@ you yourself admit you're desperately tryna disaprove the canon manga which has passed it's verdict on Itachi's portrayal. Why should I fake context for what's blatantly stated in the Manga? Obito blatantly states he ain't got shit on Itachi yet, Im faking context? Damn, how far you go tryna twist facts in your favour. "Im trying to find"---> Lmfao. You got to try harder then cause at this rate your argument is all over the place and, it isn't going anywhere.


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## Mawt (Jul 12, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Says the guy who kept repeating the "Eighth Gate" is just slightly stronger than the Hokage for the third when I had already debunked that notion with pure facts. Not to mention I've repeated what the Manga has foretold whereas you keep nitpicking it's statements which were implied blatantly and, desperately tryna catch flaws in canon Manga which by itself proves your resort to fanfic. I'm the one who should be saying your last line, I'm done with you. Seriously. I've got no time waste with someone who twists cannonical happenings into biased narratives to fit thier premise to stay relevant like you're doing when you got nothing to clutch upon. Bold@ you yourself admit you're desperately tryna disaprove the canon manga which has passed it's verdict on Itachi's portrayal. Why should I fake context for what's blatantly stated in the Manga? Obito blatantly states he ain't got shit on Itachi yet, Im faking context? Damn, how far you go tryna twist facts in your favour. "Im trying to find"---> Lmfao. You got to try harder then cause at this rate your argument is all over the place and, it isn't going anywhere.


"Fact". It's literally stated in Gaara vs Lee that Eighth Gate is slightly stronger than Hokage. This is FACTUALLY retconned in Shippuden to being tens of times stronger than the Gokage. Yet I'm the one using fanfics? Nitpicking statements? And that's not the same as using the Yata Mirror is invincible to state that Itachi can win against Pain? You're the one who's trying to desperately clear up the contradictions in the Manga. You make literally no sense whatsoever. When I come with one statement in order to debunk you, you make up fake context for that statement. "Biased narratives." How funny is that coming from you. Unlike you, I don't have a set motive here. I'm not the one who's trying to prove that one character wins. I'm looking at both characters objectively. I've come to the conclusion that just because Itachi is stated to be invincible doesn't mean he is, and just because the Yata Mirror is stated to be able to block anything doesn't mean it can. I think that in the end, Pain wins due to overwhelming Itachi. The statements I'm looking to contradict Itachi's are statements I've came across in the Manga which prove that statements aren't everything due to said contradictions. For you, it's impossible to actually acknowledge this, so you go ahead and stick to what's said about Itachi while trying ti disprove any competition with head canon. According to statements, Temari is now a casual universe buster and the Preta Path can absorb any Jutsu, regardless of its Chakra properties.

And what even is your logic? So, you're trying to prove that with the help of statements, Yata Mirror can deflect anything. As proof, you say Kusanagi couldn't pierce through it, and then you say Kusanagi can pierce through ANYTHING, but then you're saying the Yata Mirror could block it. So, you're going around in circles and showing yet again that you're trying to clear up clear contradictions by acting as if Kishimoto is a perfect writer. 

And lol, you literally just proved you're faking context by saying that Obito stated he got nothing on Itachi. By that logic, Obito < Itachi < base Jiraiya < Pain. Nice logic.


Sage light said:


> Kusanagi, Sasuke's version is hyped to pierce *anything*,


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## Mawt (Jul 12, 2018)

Anyway, I'm done for real now. Nothing beneficial has come from the argument. It went from us having a nice casual debate to you suddenly accusing me of making up fallacies and telling me I'm going against what's said in the Manga. At first, you actually seemed reasonable, but it turns out you weren't.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 12, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> accept





Itachiisinvincible said:


> "Fact". It's literally stated in Gaara vs Lee that Eighth Gate is slightly stronger than Hokage. This is FACTUALLY retconned in Shippuden to being tens of times stronger than the Gokage. Yet I'm the one using fanfics? Nitpicking statements? And that's not the same as using the Yata Mirror is invincible to state that Itachi can win against Pain? You're the one who's trying to desperately clear up the contradictions in the Manga. You make literally no sense whatsoever. When I come with one statement in order to debunk you, you make up fake context for that statement. "Biased narratives." How funny is that coming from you. Unlike you, I don't have a set motive here. I'm not the one who's trying to prove that one character wins. I'm looking at both characters objectively. I've come to the conclusion that just because Itachi is stated to be invincible doesn't mean he is, and just because the Yata Mirror is stated to be able to block anything doesn't mean it can. I think that in the end, Pain wins due to overwhelming Itachi. The statements I'm looking to contradict Itachi's are statements I've came across in the Manga which prove that statements aren't everything due to said contradictions. For you, it's impossible to actually acknowledge this, so you go ahead and stick to what's said about Itachi while trying ti disprove any competition with head canon. According to statements, Temari is now a casual universe buster and the Preta Path can absorb any Jutsu, regardless of its Chakra properties.
> 
> And what even is your logic? So, you're trying to prove that with the help of statements, Yata Mirror can deflect anything. As proof, you say Kusanagi couldn't pierce through it, and then you say Kusanagi can pierce through ANYTHING, but then you're saying the Yata Mirror could block it. So, you're going around in circles and showing yet again that you're trying to clear up clear contradictions by acting as if Kishimoto is a perfect writer.
> 
> And lol, you literally just proved you're faking context by saying that Obito stated he got nothing on Itachi. By that logic, Obito < Itachi < base Jiraiya < Pain. Nice logic.


The irony is thick. My "Obito" statement was in reference to his statement the leaf isn't off limits as Itachi isn't opposing Akatsuki at that moment. Nice way twisting it into something I never claimed just like you did thoroughouly repeating fallacy over fallacy since you got nothing to hang back on. The attempt is cute tho. Just that you didn't make a tiny shred of sense trying desperately to twist context and fake information to your biased premise to seem factual but sadly your attempt failed, doesn't look like it succeeded. Lmao you blatantly replied you're desperately nitpicking the Manga to twist context to disaprove a character's hype and now, you're utterly contradicting yourself with the above passage, acting like you're basing your suggestions off fact here. Im trying to make Kishi a perfect writer despite I myself just pointing out the context to you since you're clearly misinformed on many subjects regarding the Manga. Ironically you make zero sense whatsoever. The rest of your post sounds like childish tantrum of a child when it gets proven wrong, so Im not gonna even bother addressing that part, wasting my time.


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## rompy (Jul 12, 2018)

If we're not talking about Nagato himself Itachi should take this


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## Mawt (Jul 13, 2018)

rompy said:


> If we're not talking about Nagato himself Itachi should take this


How do you think he does against Nagato himself? I'd personally see him being able to do quite well, but losing at Chibaku Tensei.


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## Halcyonite (May 24, 2020)

Well this was a fun read. My procrastination has led to me reading a 2-year old thread lmao.

I don't know if its against the rules to necro old threads, but I just wanted to chime in on something about Yata.

It supposedly works similar to truth-seeking orbs; it deflects what is fired at it by changing its nature in order to match against the projectile-in-question, in order to negate it. It is also said to reflect those things physical (i.e. a snake head, or a Kusanagi sword) and spiritual (can't think of anything spiritual).

Shinra Tensei has no chakra nature, and it is neither a physical force or a spiritual force. Ergo, I'm not sure if Yata Mirror would be able to deflect a strong ST.


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## Turrin (May 24, 2020)

If Pain Rikudo doesn’t beat Itachi; Deva Full power will with CT.


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## Hardcore (May 24, 2020)

Hussain said:


> From feats/abilities standpoint Pain wins low to mid difficulty at worst.
> If the battle were to happen in the manga tho, I don't see Kishi allowing Pain to win against itachi.



this, gg from hussain this time


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## ATastyMuffin (May 24, 2020)

Pain doesn't need his big guns to win

Summons and Asura's bombardments mob v4 Susano'o while Preta comes from behind and whisks away Itachi's construct in a matter of seconds, or summons hold v4 down while Deva reels Itachi out with Bansho Ten'in

He's then dogpiled by 3-4 Paths

This is like a *low-mid diff* fight tops tbh, Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi are meaningless and Itachi's best tools - feints and genjutsu - are just as worthless

He might take out 2-3 Paths from purely flailing around with Susano'o, I guess


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## Halcyonite (May 24, 2020)

Hussain said:


> From feats/abilities standpoint Pain wins low to mid difficulty at worst.
> If the battle were to happen in the manga tho, I don't see Kishi allowing Pain to win against itachi.





Hardcore said:


> this, gg from hussain this time



LOL oh boy is this true. I don't think Kishi's love for Itachi stretches _too _far though. I can see Itachi dying a hero's death, just like the way Jiraiya died. Itachi in the eyes of Kishimoto would probably push Pain down to his last two before he dies, with Deva delivering the finishing blow.

Either that or Itachi whips out his new secret MS technique, Pain Body Detection Jutsu, in which Itachi can teleport to Nagato's location instantaneously and use the Totsuka Blade.


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