# Jozu vs Jinbei & Vergo



## yurilandia (Apr 29, 2013)

*Location:* MF

*Distance:* 15m

*Jozu IC*, *Jinbei/Vergo/Luffy bloodlusted*

*SC1:* Jozu vs Jinbei & Vergo

*SC2:* Jozu vs Jinbei, Vergo & TS Luffy

Jozu has both arms.


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## Extravlad (Apr 29, 2013)

S1 Jozu high diff.

S2 Jozu extrem diff.


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## SsjAzn (Apr 29, 2013)

SC1: Jozu with low difficulty 

SC2: Jozu with at least mid difficulty


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## Mihawk (Apr 29, 2013)

Scenario1: Jozu low-mid difficulty at most.

I fail to see how Vergo would be a large factor against Jozu at all, and Jinbe would only amount to stalling.

The best these two can pull off against Jozu is dent his diamond a bit? His physical strength would allow him to dominate and wreck them very badly. 

Scenario 2: Jozu mid-high difficulty. 

This is basically Jozu fighting three Monster Trio level fighters.

Luffy is a bigger factor than those other two, but with the feats Jozu has shown, and with the fact that he has an impenetrable defence, which I doubt Luffy would be able to budge, due to the fact that Jozu's haki should be in every regard, greater than Luffy's, being a New World veteran and Yonko Commander for decades, Luffy ain't much trouble to him.

Jozu could probably one shot Vergo if he was serious, or at least take him down with a two hit K.O.

Jinbe wouldn't make it too far either. A few Brilliant Punks and he would be down for the count. If Jozu does something as outrageous as pulling a large chunk of the ground and throwing it at them, the only thing that can stop it, is a EGG from Luffy, which would tax Luffy in terms of stamina by a bit.

While this happens, Jozu can take advantage and tackle Luffy, before they fight each other in a fight that eventually ends up in Jozu's victory.


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## Shingy (Apr 30, 2013)

Jozu low difficulty the first scenario, and mid difficulty the second.


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## Coruscation (Apr 30, 2013)

This is kind of like two 15 year olds fighting a full grown adult who's wearing steel plate armor and is both stronger and more skilled at fighting than either of them. You can figure out the rest.

With Luffy there they survive longer. Still don't see them winning through anything but a very unlikely scenario where Elephant Gatling 1) hits and 2) is actually enough to defeat Jozu. Jozu is virtually impervious to their attacks. If his diamond didn't let him tank virtually everything much weaker people could throw at him it would be pointless against anyone around his level. And we know that's surely not the case.


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## RF (Apr 30, 2013)

Jozu wins mid diff the first scenario, and mid-high the second.

He has the physical strength to lift and throw an iceberg several times bigger than all members of the Giant Squad together. 

There's no way any are surviving more than 2 punches from him, especially if we take his haki into account, which was able to injure an admiral in his elemental form.

He was able to shrug of a slash from the World's Strongest Swordsman with his diamond coating, so the only technique that has any real chance of defeating him is EGG, and even that is highly unlikely.


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## KST (Apr 30, 2013)

are you people fucking serious? xD

sc1 is extreme diff for jinbei and vergo
sc2 low diff for luffys group


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## Shingy (Apr 30, 2013)

Dude's made of diamond, and has mastered CoA.

He low diffs.


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## Green Monkey (Apr 30, 2013)

I think Jozu mid-high diffs scenario 1, and loses scenario 2 by a fair margin. To do any sort of attack Jozu HAS to leave part of his body exposed, or not covered in diamond. With 2-3 opponents, they will definitely attempt to exploit this. I don't think they will be able to very effectively with just 2, but with the addition of Luffy, who is extremely fast, I think the two members of the team who arent getting attacked can expose Jozu.


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## Mihawk (Apr 30, 2013)

KST said:


> are you people fucking serious? xD
> 
> sc1 is extreme diff for jinbei and vergo
> sc2 low diff for luffys group



That's the question you should ask yourself.

Low diff for the second scenario? That's retarded lol

By feats, these friggin top Yonko Commanders are probably equivalent in strength and power to a dozen Vice Admirals, if not more.  

Come back when Luffy actually manages to lift a million ton ice burg WITHOUT his devil fruit and just his raw strength alone, or when one of these guys give Aokiji a bleeding lip, or tank a higher grade slash from Mihawk.

Luffy isn't so much stronger than Vergo or Jinbe by such a large margin that he would be able to tip the scales for his team's win over Jozu from losing extreme diff, to fucking winning low diff. That makes so little sense.


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## Canute87 (Apr 30, 2013)

Josu can virtually tank EVERYTHING these guys throw at him. They ain't winning.


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## Hakan Erkan (Apr 30, 2013)

Jozu bitchslaps them with his Diamond Dick.


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## Mihawk (Apr 30, 2013)

His diamond weiner solos

No homo


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## Urouge (Apr 30, 2013)

He beats them like a step child. I don't even know how they can hurt him.


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## Dunno (Apr 30, 2013)

Jozu wins the first one high-extreme diff. 

Luffy's group wins the second one high diff. Luffy alone would extreme-diff Jozu.


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## Law (Apr 30, 2013)

Dinner for Jozu both scenarios.


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## Yamucha (Apr 30, 2013)

Jozu takes the first one, but the second one will not be easy by any stretch of imagination, but I reckon he'd still come up on top.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 30, 2013)

Jozu wins the 1st one but he might lose the second one at least extreme difficulty...


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## Bitty (Apr 30, 2013)

Dunno said:


> Jozu wins the first one high-extreme diff.
> 
> Luffy's group wins the second one high diff. Luffy alone would extreme-diff Jozu.



that doesn't make any sense.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 30, 2013)

None of the people can even hurt Jozu, and they don't have the physical strength, and or attack power to get him into the water.

In other words they lose. Badly i might add


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## Dunno (Apr 30, 2013)

When has Jozu ever shown any tanking-feats to speak of? The only time he's been hit, he got one-shot and lost his arm. His durability and endurance isn't higher than Luffy's. He's also never done any significant damage to anyone with his punches, even though he's caught a couple of people off-guard. His only significant accomplishment is being able to fight an admiral for a couple of minutes before being frozen, which puts him above pre-skip Luffy, but not post-skip Luffy. But I'm not surprised with the responses in this thread, Jozu is the most overestimated character in the OL and Luffy is the most underrated.


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## MrTouchyFeely (Apr 30, 2013)

Jozu has no trouble with Sc 1.
However, if Luffy is bloodlusted, he may harm Jozu with his stronger third gear attacks hardened with haki, like grizzly magnum. But Jozu is experienced, and has fuckin full control over his diamond body. Jozu I would say would win, but would be pretty beat up in Sc 2


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## Bitty (Apr 30, 2013)

oh...I guess tanking a slash (from the _Worlds Strongest Swordsmen_), that was meant for _Whitebeard_ without taking any damage whatsoever isn't an accomplishment.

Demonstrating one of the greatest strength feats seen in the series.
Holding off an admiral for 2-3 chapters.
Left Hand Man of World's Strongest Man.

butt nahhh getting caught off guard & took down by the sheer hax nature of an _ Admiral's_ ability shows he's below Luffy.


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## Extravlad (May 1, 2013)

The gap between Jozu and these guys is overestimated

If 3 mid top tier can't give an extrem diff to one of the weakest top tier One Piece is clearly not at 60%.

Just remember Doflamingo is the boss of the current arc and in strenght he is comparable to Jozu.

So how Doflamingo will lose when you guys are all saying a low top tier can beat Luffy + Vergo + Jinbe with something like mid difficulty?


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## Green Monkey (May 1, 2013)

The idea that none of these people can even hurt Jozu is UTTER NONSENSE. Unless Jozu is literally going to stand still the entire fight in his diamond form, than he will be unprotected at times.

Jozu is not this fucking powerful...


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## Imagine (May 1, 2013)

Dunno said:


> *When has Jozu ever shown any tanking-feats to speak of?* The only time he's been hit, he got one-shot and lost his arm. His durability and endurance isn't higher than Luffy's. He's also never done any significant damage to anyone with his punches, even though he's caught a couple of people off-guard. His only significant accomplishment is being able to fight an admiral for a couple of minutes before being frozen, which puts him above pre-skip Luffy, but not post-skip Luffy. But I'm not surprised with the responses in this thread, Jozu is the most overestimated character in the OL and Luffy is the most underrated.


 

And Aokiji's abilities ignore conventional durability.


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## Dunno (May 1, 2013)

8Bit said:


> oh...I guess tanking a slash (from the _Worlds Strongest Swordsmen_), that was meant for _Whitebeard_ without taking any damage whatsoever isn't an accomplishment.
> 
> Demonstrating one of the greatest strength feats seen in the series.
> Holding off an admiral for 2-3 chapters.
> ...



Tanking and blocking is two entirely different things. Shanks could block WB's slash without taking any damage. That certainly doesn't mean that he wouldn't take any damage if he was hit by it while not blocking. It's also easier to intercept an attack made against someone else that to block an attack targeting you. 

Strength feats doesn't translate to prowess in combat, as shown by his failure to deal damage to Aokiji and Crocodile, even though he caught them both off-guard. 
Holding off an admiral for a couple of chapters is a decent feat. It shows that he is somewhat capable of holding off an admiral for a very short amount of time, which is something pre-timeskip Luffy wouldn't be able to do. But Luffy hasn't fought an admiral post-TS, so we don't know how long he would last.
It was stated by Oda that the division-number didn't dictate the strength of the commander. Unlike Marco, who was treated as a first-mate and right hand by WB, Jozu was treated the same way as the rest of the commanders. Nothing indicates that he would be the left hand man of WB.

Being caught off-guard and being taken down by Aokiji in just a couple of seconds just shows that he's far from admiral level. It doesn't show that he's weaker than Luffy, just that his defense isn't even close to top tier defense, and since his main focus seems to be defense, he can't be that strong. 

Before we see Luffy fighting a real opponent, it's really just a guess, but I think he will be able to take down Doflamingo in some way. He might not be stronger than him but he'll need to be quite close, which puts him around Jozu's level, and due to his extremely strong will, I think he would be able to take it.


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## Mihawk (May 1, 2013)

Dunno said:


> When has Jozu ever shown any tanking-feats to speak of? The only time he's been hit, he got one-shot and lost his arm. His durability and endurance isn't higher than Luffy's. He's also never done any significant damage to anyone with his punches, even though he's caught a couple of people off-guard. His only significant accomplishment is being able to fight an admiral for a couple of minutes before being frozen, which puts him above pre-skip Luffy, but not post-skip Luffy. But I'm not surprised with the responses in this thread, Jozu is the most overestimated character in the OL and *Luffy is the most underrated*.



@bolded

LOL no


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## Bitty (May 1, 2013)

Dunno said:


> Tanking and blocking is two entirely different things. Shanks could block WB's slash without taking any damage. That certainly doesn't mean that he wouldn't take any damage if he was hit by it while not blocking. It's also easier to intercept an attack made against someone else that to block an attack targeting you.
> 
> Strength feats doesn't translate to prowess in combat, as shown by his failure to deal damage to Aokiji and Crocodile, even though he caught them both off-guard.
> Holding off an admiral for a couple of chapters is a decent feat. It shows that he is somewhat capable of holding off an admiral for a very short amount of time, which is something pre-timeskip Luffy wouldn't be able to do. But Luffy hasn't fought an admiral post-TS, so we don't know how long he would last.
> ...



Jozu blocked the attack...................with his body.
he took zero damage from it..................he tanked it, almost effortlessly. An attack meant for someone stronger than him.

Being caught off-guard and being taken down by Aokiji in just a couple of seconds doesn't show he's far below an admiral.  That just shows how hax & deadly Aokiji's abilities are, which ignore conventional durability.

Like how Caesar took down Luffy.
or how Magellan 1-shotted the entire BB Crew.


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## Mihawk (May 1, 2013)

While I disagree with the notion that Jozu tanked Mihawk's slash effortlessly, I agree with everything else ^

And Jozu being distracted and one shotted by Aokiji is nothing to be ashamed of.

The Admirals have the potential to oneshot nearly every single opponent they fight if they are distracted or caught off guard, due to the nature of their abilities.

The only people I can picture who won't get such a treatment, are the Yonko + Mihawk, as well as Marco, due to his regen.


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## Dunno (May 1, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> The Admirals have the potential to oneshot nearly every single opponent they fight if they are distracted or caught off guard, due to the nature of their abilities.
> 
> The only people I can picture who won't get such a treatment, are the Yonko + Mihawk, as well as Marco, due to his regen.



And Doflamingo, and other Admirals, and probably other people who are good at using Haki, like Yonkou first mates. I can't for example imagine it happening to Dragon, Rayleigh, Garp or Sengoku either. Basically anyone who's close to Admiral level or stronger. 

Here's what happens if the defender has a good enough defense:


*Spoiler*: __ 













Doflαmingo said:


> @bolded
> 
> LOL no



Well, maybe apart from Crocodile. A lot of people still think he's weaker than among others: a regular Vice Admiral like Vergo, and Law, Kid and Drake and Jinbei, Magellan and whatever new character pops up out of nowhere with a little bit of hype. And that's just stupid.


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## RF (May 1, 2013)

Dunno said:


> Tanking and blocking is two entirely different things. Shanks could block WB's slash without taking any damage. That certainly doesn't mean that he wouldn't take any damage if he was hit by it while not blocking. It's also easier to intercept an attack made against someone else that to block an attack targeting you.



Irrelevant, since Jozu will be on-guard the entire fight and there certainly won't be any surprise attacks involved.



Dunno said:


> Strength feats doesn't translate to prowess in combat, as shown by his failure to deal damage to Aokiji and Crocodile, even though he caught them both off-guard.



Might I add, that Aokiji was in his elemental form and actually saw Jozu coming, and he STILL gave him a bloody lip, something Marco couldn't accomplish in the entire war.

Also, going by any consistent powerscaling, Jozu should be able to one shoot Croc.



Dunno said:


> Holding off an admiral for a couple of chapters is a decent feat. It shows that he is somewhat capable of holding off an admiral for a very short amount of time, which is something pre-timeskip Luffy wouldn't be able to do. But Luffy hasn't fought an admiral post-TS, so we don't know how long he would last.



The fact that Jozu could fight an admiral _equally_ for a few chapters is the impressive part.
I think it's safe to say that Luffy would get wooped.



Dunno said:


> Nothing indicates that he would be the left hand man of WB.



You mean besides the fact that he was the one to fight an admiral alongside Marco and Whitebeard?



Dunno said:


> Being caught off-guard and being taken down by Aokiji in just a couple of seconds just shows that he's far from admiral level. It doesn't show that he's weaker than Luffy, just that his defense isn't even close to top tier defense, and since his main focus seems to be defense, he can't be that strong.



This might be the stupidest thing I've read today. You do realize that Aokiji's fruit ignores durability, right? 

That's like saying Blackbeard doesn't have monstrous durability and endurance because he got one shot by Magellan.

Even the great Whitebeard got half of his face blown off by one of the weakest attacks from an admiral.

They aren't the most lethal combat force in this entire manga for nothing. 



Dunno said:


> Before we see Luffy fighting a real opponent, it's really just a guess, but I think he will be able to take down Doflamingo in some way. He might not be stronger than him but he'll need to be quite close, which puts him around Jozu's level, and due to his extremely strong will, I think he would be able to take it.



You need to bring out facts in an argument, not speculate.



Dunno said:


> And Doflamingo, and other Admirals, and probably other people who are good at using Haki, like Yonkou first mates. I can't for example imagine it happening to Dragon, Rayleigh, Garp or Sengoku either. Basically anyone who's close to Admiral level or stronger.
> 
> Here's what happens if the defender has a good enough defense:
> 
> ...



Doflamingo,despite ignoring Aokiji, knew he was there --- Jozu was caught off-guard.

Only the surface of Doflamingo's body was frozen, from a long range--- Jozu was touched by Aokiji and was frozen completely.

Aokiji froze Doflamingo as a warning --- On the other hand, he froze Jozu to kill him

And Doflamingo STILL almost died.

The scenarios aren't in any way, shape or form comparable.


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## Canute87 (May 1, 2013)

Dunno said:


> And Doflamingo, and other Admirals, and probably other people who are good at using Haki, like Yonkou first mates. I can't for example imagine it happening to Dragon, Rayleigh, Garp or Sengoku either. Basically anyone who's close to Admiral level or stronger.
> 
> Here's what happens if the defender has a good enough defense:
> 
> ...



Kiji held back against flamingo.

Josu got frozen to the core.


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## Dunno (May 1, 2013)

I don't understand why almost everyone seems to believe that being caught off-guard would negate your defense completely. Aokiji was caught off-guard by Jozu and he wasn't one-shot, Akainu was caught off-guard by WB and he wasn't one-shot either, Doflamingo was caught off-guard by Aokiji and wasn't one-shot, Marco was caught off-guard by Kizaru and wasn't one-shot. People get caught off-guard all the time without being one-shot, because if they are around the same level of strength as the opponent, they can survive the attack either way.


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## RF (May 1, 2013)

Dunno said:


> I don't understand why almost everyone seems to believe that being caught off-guard would negate your defense completely. Aokiji was caught off-guard by Jozu and he wasn't one-shot, Akainu was caught off-guard by WB and he wasn't one-shot either, Doflamingo was caught off-guard by Aokiji and wasn't one-shot, Marco was caught off-guard by Kizaru and wasn't one-shot. People get caught off-guard all the time without being one-shot, because if they are around the same level of strength as the opponent, they can survive the attack either way.



All of the above mentioned fighters were hit just like Jozu. Do you know the difference? They weren't hit by an attack that ignores durability.

In all of those cases, durability is what saved those fighters, except for the Doflamingo case (which I debated in my previous posts)

Aokiji's ice IGNORES durability. Meaning, if it hit goddamn Gold Roger, it would kill him. If it hit Whitebeard, it would kill him. While you can tank an earthquake, or a laser, you CAN'T tank being frozen solid, since the attack ignores any conventional durability.

And no, Doflamingo wasn't frozen solid. It was only the mere surface of his skin that was frozen, by a relaxed Aokiji who didn't even pull his hands out his pants, and he STILL almost died.


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## Coruscation (May 1, 2013)

> People get caught off-guard all the time without being one-shot, because if they are around the same level of strength as the opponent, they can survive the attack either way.



Based on this splendid attempt at reasoning Luffy is weaker than Caesar Clown. Luffy took an unexpected attack from Caesar and was defeated. Caesar took one from Luffy and was pretty much fine.

700 chapters in and people still don't get that Devil Fruits are hax.


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## Dunno (May 1, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> All of the above mentioned fighters were hit just like Jozu. Do you know the difference? They weren't hit by an attack that ignores durability.
> 
> In all of those cases, durability is what saved those fighters, except for the Doflamingo case (which I debated in my previous posts)
> 
> ...



It hit both WB and Doflamingo, and none of them died. Doflamingo wasn't frozen solid because he could defend against it, just like WB. The same reason WB wasn't pierced by Akainu's magma the same way Ace was, because he could tank it. You might need another kind of defense against Aokiji, but it's still possible to defend against if you know how to.



Coruscation said:


> Based on this splendid attempt at reasoning Luffy is weaker than Caesar Clown. Luffy took an unexpected attack from Caesar and was defeated. Caesar took one from Luffy and was pretty much fine.
> 
> 700 chapters in and people still don't get that Devil Fruits are hax.



The difference is that Luffy beat Caesar easily afterwards, while Jozu didn't. I can promise you that if Luffy had been carried away off the island while Caesar continued with his stuff, then Caesar would be considered stronger than Luffy. And if Jozu had came back and beaten Aokiji's ass, he would have lost due to hax, and not to Aokiji's strength. Also Jozu knew very well what kind of power Aokiji possessed, while Luffy had no idea about Caesar's. If Luffy would have lost again to the oxygen ability, he would probably have been weaker than Caesar.


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## Coruscation (May 1, 2013)

> You might need another kind of defense against Aokiji, but it's still possible to defend against if you know how to.



Maybe you haven't realized this: Jozu and Aokiji were fighting each other. Jozu barged in and took over Whitebeard's fight. Aokiji defeated Jozu when he was taken off-guard and looked away, giving him an _opening_. Please tell me: what do you think Jozu was doing before that happened? Could it be that he was... wait for it... defending against Aokiji? And being distracted led to, shockingly, an opening in his otherwise functional defense?

No, that can't be. Aokiji must just have been dicking around before that. Or maybe they sat down and had a nice chat instead of fighting after Jozu slammed his elbow in Aokiji's face. Everything to avoid the simple conclusion that Jozu was actually defending just fine before he was unfortunately distracted.



> The difference is that Luffy beat Caesar easily afterwards, while Jozu didn't. I can promise you that if Luffy had been carried away off the island while caesar continued with his stuff, then Caesar would be considered stronger than Luffy. And if Jozu had came back and beaten Aokiji's ass, he would have lost due to hax, and not to Aokiji's strength.



No, actually, that argument doesn't even constitute a response. I'm going to look past it being crappy in general but you do realize that your original statement was that if someone is actually close to someone in power, strong enough to take an attack, they will be able to. The actual truth is that even if you're far _stronger_ than someone, you can _still_ lose to deadly Devil Fruits... if you're taken off-guard. Which Luffy vs. Caesar illustrates. If your original statement or anything even close to it was true, Luffy would out of necessity have to be much weaker than Caesar, because he lost instantly when he was unexpectedly subjected to an attack from his lethal Devil Fruit.

The senseless downplaying of Jozu based on _ridiculously_ selective reading needs to come to an urgent halt.


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## Typhon (May 1, 2013)

What do you guys mean by "they have no way of hurting Jozu"? Jinbei alone has a freaking technique that ignores durability by attacking the insides.

I personally think Luffy can give Jozu a run for his money now, add Jinbei and Vergo and they are taking that scenario, high diff at best.


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## RF (May 1, 2013)

Dunno said:


> It hit both WB



It wasn't Whitebeard's body that was frozen, he was just trapped in an ice cube.



Dunno said:


> Doflamingo wasn't frozen solid because he could defend against it, just like WB.



What are you talking about ? 

Doflamingo wasn't frozen solid because the ice only covered the surface of his skin, since it was performed as a warning, rather than a killing technique, and Aokiji did it from a distance.




Dunno said:


> The same reason WB wasn't pierced by Akainu's magma the same way Ace was, because he could tank it.



Akainu's magma went through Whitebeard's body like a hot knife through butter, the only reason Whitebeard wasn't pierced in the same way Ace was because of the massive size of his body.



Dunno said:


> You might need another kind of defense against Aokiji, but it's still possible to defend against if you know how to.



There's no special defense. If you're frozen- then you're frozen. Nobody has ever avoided getting frozen by Aokiji, and unless you can prove that it's possible, it's nothing but pure speculation on your part.


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## Dunno (May 1, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Maybe you haven't realized this: Jozu and Aokiji were fighting each other. Jozu barged in and took over Whitebeard's fight. Aokiji defeated Jozu when he was taken off-guard and looked away, giving him an _opening_. Please tell me: what do you think Jozu was doing before that happened? Could it be that he was... wait for it... defending against Aokiji? And being distracted led to, shockingly, an opening in his otherwise functional defense?
> 
> No, that can't be. Aokiji must just have been dicking around before that. Or maybe they sat down and had a nice chat instead of fighting after Jozu slammed his elbow in Aokiji's face. Everything to avoid the simple conclusion that Jozu was actually defending just fine before he was unfortunately distracted.



This it what I'm saying. There are ways to defend against Aokiji's ice, and Jozu was able to do it while he wasn't distracted, but the second he let his guard down he got taken out instantly. The thing I'm saying is not that Jozu is weak, but that if he was as close to admiral level as some people seem to believe, he would have been able to do what Doflamingo did, and escape the freeze. There's nothing that indicates that Luffy wouldn't be able to fight Aokiji for a while without being frozen as long as he concentrated on the fight. 



Coruscation said:


> No, actually, that argument doesn't even constitute a response. I'm going to look past it being crappy in general but you do realize that your original statement was that if someone is actually close to someone in power, strong enough to take an attack, they will be able to. The actual truth is that even if you're far _stronger_ than someone, you can _still_ lose to deadly Devil Fruits... if you're taken off-guard. Which Luffy vs. Caesar illustrates. If your original statement or anything even close to it was true, Luffy would out of necessity have to be much weaker than Caesar, because he lost instantly when he was unexpectedly subjected to an attack from his lethal Devil Fruit.
> 
> The senseless downplaying of Jozu based on _ridiculously_ selective reading needs to come to an urgent halt.



There are massive differences between Devil Fruits. You can't just generalize and say that they're all hax. You yourself just said that it was possible to defend against Aokiji's ice. Which means that it's more of a straight up attack than Caesar's, which wasn't really an attack at all. Aokiji's DF is more like Luffy's than Caesar's, in that it is a straightforward attack that can be blocked. Also you should stop being a dick, and argue like a sensible person.


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## Urouge (May 1, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Akainu's magma went through Whitebeard's body like a hot knife through butter, the only reason Whitebeard wasn't pierced in the same way Ace was because of the massive size of his body.



as if the size of the body matters against akainu. his fist went trough jinbei's and luffy's chest. it didnt completely go through wb because he's durable simple as that.


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## Coruscation (May 1, 2013)

> There are ways to defend against Aokiji's ice, and Jozu was able to do it while he wasn't distracted, but the second he let his guard down he got taken out instantly. The thing I'm saying is not that Jozu is weak, but that if he was as close to admiral level as some people seem to believe, he would have been able to do what Doflamingo did, and escape the freeze.



- Doflamingo was *not* taken off guard. HUGE difference there. You're literally comparing apples and oranges. An aware Doflamingo broke out so that means an unaware Jozu who failed is weaker. There is no logic in that.

- Aokiji didn't even touch Doflamingo. He stood still with his hands in his pockets. When he attacked Jozu he actually physically touched him, which has been clearly shown to be the more powerful, deep freeze.

You are trying to make a comparison that can't be made.



> There are massive differences between Devil Fruits. You can't just generalize and say that they're all hax. You yourself just said that it was possible to defend against Aokiji's ice.



Indeed. The thing is that in this case, both fruits _are_ hax (as hell). You don't think it's possible to defend against Caesar's oxygen shenanigans? I'd love to see your evidence of that. All those top tiers that tried and failed.

You made a crappy argument saying more or less "if you're close to someone's strength you won't get taken out by one attack, off-guard or not". I've shown plain and clear how that's utterly wrong, most especially when Devil Fruits are involved -- but really we don't even need to go that far. The mighty Zoro was taken out by two shitty yetis because they caught him off-guard with a hax attack. Your argument does not work.


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## Dunno (May 1, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> - Doflamingo was *not* taken off guard. HUGE difference there. You're literally comparing apples and oranges. An aware Doflamingo broke out so that means an unaware Jozu who failed is weaker. There is no logic in that.
> 
> - Aokiji didn't even touch Doflamingo. He stood still with his hands in his pockets. When he attacked Jozu he actually physically touched him, which has been clearly shown to be the more powerful, deep freeze.
> 
> You are trying to make a comparison that can't be made.



Doflamingo wasn't facing Aokiji and he was focused on killing Smoker, not on defending against Aokiji. This means that his defense wasn't as good as it would have been had he been fighting Aokiji in a one vs one. It doesn't matter whether you want to call it being caught off-guard or not, the fact is that he defended against the attack while not being totally focused on it. 

You can argue that Jozu's defense was lowered more than Doflamingo's but not that Doflamingo's wasn't lowered at all. Also Aokiji wouldn't risk Smoker's life by using a weak attack. It might be that he used the fastest attack he could, and that it's a bit weaker because of that, but it's still just speculation, not fact.



Coruscation said:


> Indeed. The thing is that in this case, both fruits _are_ hax (as hell). You don't think it's possible to defend against Caesar's oxygen shenanigans? I'd love to see your evidence of that. All those top tiers that tried and failed.
> 
> You made a crappy argument saying more or less "if you're close to someone's strength you won't get taken out by one attack, off-guard or not". I've shown plain and clear how that's utterly wrong, most especially when Devil Fruits are involved -- but really we don't even need to go that far. The mighty Zoro was taken out by two shitty yetis because they caught him off-guard with a hax attack. Your argument does not work.



The difference between their attacks is that Aokiji's attacks have been shown to be countered straight up by WB and Doflamingo (and we can assume by Jozu off-panel), while Caesar's hasn't been. Aokiji's is a straight up attack that targets your body, that can be blocked by whatever these three characters used to block it with. 

Sleep gas and that stuff is just PIS, just like the spiders on Thriller Bark and every other stupid way the SHs get captured almost every arc. I can agree that my argument might hold true for the most haxed abilities, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't hold true in this case.


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## Coruscation (May 1, 2013)

> It doesn't matter whether you want to call it being caught off-guard or not, the fact is that he defended against the attack while not being totally focused on it.
> 
> You can argue that Jozu's defense was lowered more than Doflamingo's but not that Doflamingo's wasn't lowered at all.



He knew Aokiji was there. The effort of killing an already practically dead Smoker should be nil compared to the effort required to defend against Aokiji.

Sure I can. That depends entirely on how you defend. As you said yourself all we know about that is that it's _something_. And again, and this is important: Aokiji _didn't even move_ when he froze Doflamingo. He just sent out a wave of cold, like a warning. Jozu was hit by his most lethal direct-touch move. Aokiji always goes for direct touch with his finishers, this should be no exception. He gave Doflamingo a warning. Against Jozu he went directly for the kill.



> Aokiji's is a straight up attack that targets your body, that can be blocked by whatever these three characters used to block it with.
> 
> Sleep gas and that stuff is just PIS, just like the spiders on Thriller Bark and every other stupid way the SHs get captured almost every arc. I can agree that my argument might hold true for the most haxed abilities, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't hold true in this case.



Aokiji is an Admiral with power, skill, deadliness and speed of the highest class. If he catches you _off-guard_ and hits you with his most lethal ability, you're going to be in a world of shit and that's all there is to say about that. It's completely unfair to use the examples of Whitebeard and Doflamingo defending against non-touch attacks while on-guard and aware to downplay Jozu failing when off-guard and suffering direct contact. Now sure, Jozu IS weaker than Aokiji and if you had someone like Garp instead I don't think it's a given that they would get taken down even caught off-guard. But no one is saying Jozu is as strong as Garp. We're just saying that you're downplaying Jozu too much and unfairly.

Sorry, but... an Admiral with a deadly oneshot Logia > sleeping gas. Your argument simply does not hold true, we've seen so many examples of the contrary. Magellan took down Blackbeard and his whole crew in a single attack. Blackbeard beat Ace. Does that mean we should say Ace has no chance against Magellan? Hell no. That'd be comparing apples and oranges. Totally different abilities and reasons behind the losses. Some people you just don't want to take a hit from, most especially if you're weaker than them. Magellan is one, Caesar another... and by all accounts, so is Aokiji.


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## Mihawk (May 2, 2013)

Jozu>luffy

Not debatable


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## Quuon (May 2, 2013)

Jozu cooks jinbei for dinner and proceeds to make Vergo his prison bitch afterwards.

What's with all of these Jozu rape threads?


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## Lawliet (May 2, 2013)

This is my own opinion, I believe that Oda threw Jozu out of the war after his fight with Aokiji cuz, if Jozu was there when all the commanders + Croco vs Akainu happened, Jozu would be change the tides of the fight, and that's why Oda had to get rid of Jozu. 

This being my opinion, I believe that Jozu can fuck Jinbei and rape Vergo.


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## Lycka (May 4, 2013)

Jozu little to no difficulty, they can't hurt him.


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## Baroxio (May 5, 2013)

What the fuck am I hearing/reading? Jimbei's Fishman Karate was specifically stated to go through shit like this. Whether you are made of rubber or made of diamond, Jimbei don't give a shit.

The fact that Jimbei has better speed feats than Jozu only puts this more in his favor. 

I will agree that Vergo is nothing more than a distraction/tank, but Jimbei can almost solo.


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## MYJC (May 5, 2013)

Methinks Jozu is being wanked quite a bit in this thread. He's tough but people are acting like he's a Yonkou or something. Brilliant Punk didn't even KO Croc and people think it's gonna one-shot Jinbei, Luffy, or Vergo? C'mon 


Scenario 1: Jozu wins mid-high diff

Scenario 2: Could go either way


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## Imagine (May 5, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> What the fuck am I hearing/reading? Jimbei's Fishman Karate was specifically stated to go through shit like this. Whether you are made of rubber or made of diamond, Jimbei don't give a shit.
> 
> The fact that Jimbei has better speed feats than Jozu only puts this more in his favor.
> 
> I will agree that Vergo is nothing more than a distraction/tank, but Jimbei can almost solo.


If Luffy can take one of those punches from Jinbei then Jozu damn sure can.


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## Baroxio (May 6, 2013)

No one is saying a single punch decides this. But Jimbei can certainly hurt him with Fishman Karate. With better speed feats, Jimbei can most definitely land more hits than he takes. Add to that his 5-day stamina feat against a logia and the battle isn't nearly as one-sided as most people here claim.


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## Imagine (May 6, 2013)

Speed isn't a problem here. Jinbei isn't disappearing out of Jozu's sight, nor is he blitzing him. And he can't lay enough hits on him without him noticing. Jinbei can have as much stamina as he wants but he doesn't mean a thing if he gets his arms torn off.


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## The World (May 6, 2013)

Jozu throws an iceberg shaped like a giant dildo at them


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## RF (May 6, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> No one is saying a single punch decides this. But Jimbei can certainly hurt him with Fishman Karate. With better speed feats, Jimbei can most definitely land more hits than he takes.



Oda specifically highlighted Jozu's speed by making him appear out of nowhere and smash his elbow in Croc's face without the latter not being able to react, and then literally moments later saying "he's so big, yet so fast".

He also, caught Aokiji off-guard.

Jinbei isn't faster than him.



Baroxio said:


> Add to that his 5-day stamina feat against a logia and the battle isn't nearly as one-sided as most people here claim.



Akainu has 10 days worth of stamina, yet Whitebeard knocked him out cold for a while with 2 hits.


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## Mihawk (May 6, 2013)

Now people think jinbe can solo Jozu as well?

God damn!


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 6, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> All of the above mentioned fighters were hit just like Jozu. Do you know the difference? They weren't hit by an attack that ignores durability.
> 
> In all of those cases, durability is what saved those fighters, except for the Doflamingo case (which I debated in my previous posts)
> 
> ...



No he did not.


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## RF (May 6, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> No he did not.





His subordinates were certain he was dead, and Buffalo implied had he been trapped for a little longer/ had Aokiji put more into the attack, his heart would have been frozen, and he would have died.


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## DoflaMihawk (May 6, 2013)

So Jozu stomps them individually, but putting them together gives them a chance?

Yeah no.


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## Captain Altintop (May 12, 2013)

1) Jozu wins with mid diff. 

2) Jozu wins with mid-high diff.


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## Baroxio (May 12, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Oda specifically highlighted Jozu's speed by making him appear out of nowhere and smash his elbow in Croc's face without the latter not being able to react, and then literally moments later saying "he's so big, yet so fast".





Gear 2 Luffy does the exact same thing to Crocodile, and Jimbei intercepted G2 Luffy mid blitz. How this doesn't prove my statement of Jimbei being faster I have no idea.



> He also, caught Aokiji off-guard.



He hit an Ao Kiji who was preoccupied with Whitebeard, the motherflipping strongest man on the planet.

In return, Jimbei intercepted an attack from the slightly stronger Akainu who was preoccupied with 2 nearly dead rookies.

Neither of these are good speed feats, but again, don't see how this proves Jozu is faster.



> Jinbei isn't faster than him.



Not saying Jozu is slow as molasses, but Jimbei's *feats *shit all over his.



> Akainu has 10 days worth of stamina, yet Whitebeard knocked him out cold for a while with 2 hits.



That's nice. Still doesn't prove how Jozu deals with Jimbei's Fishman Karate, which bypasses defenses, or how Jozu lands a hit on the moderately faster Jimbei. 

And while Jimbei has that as a stamina feat, what comparable stamina feats does Jozu have? 

Yeah, that's right. None.

Once more, Jimbei by feats is the faster fighter, and has a method to bypass Jozu's defenses, which are obviously the most HAX thing about him.

Then Jimbei has teammates in the form of the comparable Vergo with full body CoA Haku and TS Luffy, both of whom have the Haki prowess to bypass Devil fruits as well.

Jozu is a great guy and all, but he isn't taking this match no matter how badly the wank.


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## mido (May 13, 2013)

what do they have to break his defense?









nothing


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## Baroxio (May 13, 2013)

mido said:


> what do they have to break his defense?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Jimbei's Fishman Karate bypasses durability.


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## mido (May 13, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Jimbei's Fishman Karate bypasses durability.



but still jimbeis attacks won't be enough
don't you think so


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## Pacifista (May 13, 2013)

As if that measly attack will do anything to Jozu.


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## Baroxio (May 13, 2013)

He was able to make Luffy bleed, I see no reason why making Jozu bleed would be any difficult if your attack bypasses durability.

Add better speed/reactions plus 2 very capable Haki-master fighters, and Jimbei's team should most definitely clinch the win.


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## RF (May 13, 2013)

None of them have better battle speed than Jozu.


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## Pacifista (May 13, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> He was able to make Luffy bleed, I see no reason why making Jozu bleed would be any difficult if your attack bypasses durability.



I fail to see how that means Jozu is getting hurt on any level that actually matters.


> Add better speed/reactions plus 2 very capable Haki-master fighters, and Jimbei's team should most definitely clinch the win.



Better speed and reactions according to what? And Capable haki masters? Jozu is obviously a much superior haki user than Luffy is. There's nothing clinching any win here for anyone that isn't Jozu.


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## Baroxio (May 13, 2013)

I addressed earlier in the thread how Jozu's speed *feats *pale in comparison to Jimbei's speed *feats*; if you disagree with my logic at any point then by all means go and point out the problem. 

And if Jimbei can draw blood with a single hit then he's certainly causing some damage. Considering the fact that he (and frankly, the rest of his team) have better speed feats, it isn't as likely that they are getting hit when he can attack from range and has a team to back him up.

As for Haki mastery, we are still lacking in *feats *for us to say that Jozu is so much more superior to Luffy and Full body Haki Vergo in that regard.

As of right now, all I'm hearing is *wank* so there is no reason to continue posting. I'll respond back when I see *feats*.


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## Pacifista (May 13, 2013)

Some characters don't need *feats * because of who they are. We don't need *feats *to tell us that Big Mom is superior to Jinbei. We don't need *feats* to tell us Beckman is superior to Vergo. We don't need *feats *to tell us that Kaido's First Mate is superior to Luffy. Jozu is one of Whitebeard's top men and fought an Admiral for an extended amount of time. It's obvious as day that he's vastly superior to the likes of anyone he's up against here. Call that wank if you want but it's completely asinine to take the stance that characters with positions clearly needing extremely high stats ( ie Admirals, Yonkou, top Yonkou members) are below the likes of Luffy, Jinbei and Vergo until we are spoonfed information that we should be able to figure out for ourselves.


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## ShadowReaper (May 13, 2013)

Haki is the thing that essentially will help the 2-nd team to ignore his "impregnable Diamond Body". Jinbei is almost as strong as Jozu and Vergo is a proficient Haki user and a capable combatant.


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## SesshomaruX2 (May 14, 2013)

Jinbei team wins both fights.


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