# Orochimaru vs Minato Namikaze



## Troyse22 (Jan 20, 2017)

vs



Location: Open field
Knowledge: Manga
Distance: 50m
Restrictions: No prep @Bonly 
No ET
Stipulations/Notes: This is living Minato with non suicide, non Kurama living and edo feats
This is P1 Orochimaru with all of his feats shown in the manga


My opinion: I simply don't have one regarding this, I can go either way.

Reactions: Like 2


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 20, 2017)

Minato  wins this mid-difficulty IMO.

Minato can easily tag orochimaru while orochimaru can't hit minato so minato can tag,  cut and rasengan oro. Oros oral rebirth takes more chakra than minato using kunai slashes and all so minato has a good chance of outlasting.

Minato can also use sage mode, call forward the sage toad and use frog song that would be another option. Yamata no orichi gets taken down by FCD

Minato also can use sealing jutsu such as Shishou fuin


> Four Images Seal (Shishou Fuuin)
> 
> Fuuinjutsu, Supplementary, Close range
> 
> ...



Portrayal also supports minato being able to defeat oro.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 20, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Portrayal also supports minato being able to defeat oro.



I've always viewed that statement as stating they're equals, do you view it as them saying that Minato is above Oro?


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 20, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I've always viewed that statement as stating they're equals, do you view it as them saying that Minato is above Oro?


Yes, Anko regrets not having the fourth around.
The statement comes right after Hiruzen (*not prime ) *believes there existed no shinobi in leaf who were capable of taking out oro.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 20, 2017)

@IzayaOrihara would have schooled all y'all fools

Orochimaru mid diffs


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 20, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> My opinion: I simply don't have one regarding this, I can go either way.


Same

Oro cant tag minato due to FTG and speed

Minato can tag oro stupid easily, but cant kill oro due to rebirth

It comes down to who can spam their attack/defense more to see who would win.

Id lean slightly more towards minato tho, as rasengan or FTG are noted to not be particularly taxing, whereas rebirth is.

Like 51/49 in minatos favor for me.


Troyse22 said:


> Restrictions: No prep @Bonly
> No ET


This helps oro way more than minato tho lol

Oro would get negged if he brought ET to a party the yellow flash was invited to, hed simply lolblitz oro and contract seal gg, then oro gets a train ran on him by the hokages.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## hbcaptain (Jan 20, 2017)

Minato wins mid diff, he can easily speedlitz Oro untile he runs out of chakra. If he activates Yamata, then FTG+Yatai Kuzushi + Shishou Fuin end the fight.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 20, 2017)

Minato is overall superior, but he can't kill Orochimaru. Orochimaru-Ryu no Kawarimi no Jutsu can counteract Minato's whole arsenal, as can his Yamata no Jutsu. I'm not buying that Orochimaru will run out of chakra using it, when he's never been depicted as such and has spammed it's usage throughout the whole Manga without showcasing any drawbacks at any point. Minato's Shisho Fuin could potentially seal Orochimaru away if he uses Yamata no Jutsu, but if Orochimaru resorts to using his true form then Minato will lose. Once he starts slicing him up with his Hiraishin Kunai, he'll get paralyzed by the neurotoxins and left defenseless. He could warp away with Hiraishin, as that only requires a thought, but then he can't fight anymore. So honestly, I think this can go anyway and depends on what Orochimaru and Minato both decide to do, but it'll be high difficulty for either as one can't touch the other and one can't kill the other.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Crow (Jan 20, 2017)

If Oro summoned Manda he'd summon Gamabunta. Minato can respond and react to anything that Orochimaru can do. He'd eventually land a Flying Raijin lvl 2 and incapitate Orochimaru. If Obito couldn't respond fast enough then Oro would have no chance.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 21, 2017)

Orochimaru is one of the best trickster and this is gonna be tough for Minato..

Cuz his doton and snake attacks from ground kinda bad for FTG kunai replacements.. And His Oral Rebirth can erase the Marks effect.

And due to Jiraiya and reputation..  Orochimaru well know who is Minato. . But on the other hand as a member of the root and working in underground labs.. Orochimaru kinda has more mysterious and unpredictable profile than Minato.

Orochimaru's 5 Element Seal, Cursed Seal and Poisons can uses as stunt material for cuttin his movement speed. .

Rashomon, 10.000 snakes and Giant Kusanagi pierce are good options for sucker punches..

He is also can deflect kunai throws with Futon: Daitoppa..

He is durable, has regen and ı think he is stronger than Minato too..

But sadly, Minato have 3 main advantages;

1- Better Summons and their Sage Mode
2- Speed  (even w/o FTG)
3 - Better execution jutsu with Rasengan..

So Orochimaru cant win this.. At most he can carry this battle to a draw.. Force Minato to using SF... So ı dont think Orochimaru could be the victor.. Stalemate for at most..

But like ı said before, portrayal and 3 main advantage makes him simply better than Oro..

But ı dont think this is a mid-diff.. this kinda mid-high diff. (more close to mid maybe).

54/46 goes to Minato.


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## Divell (Jan 21, 2017)

Hard to argue. Minato is faster, but Orochimaru is really versatile. And without Kyuubi, Minato lack the power to cause heavy damage to Orochimaru. Specially if Orochimaru is at his best.


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## Kyu (Jan 21, 2017)

Jesus, people. Killing isn't the only viable option to win.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Rai (Jan 21, 2017)

Minato wins as stated in the manga 

but then Itachi appears and kill him 

so Itachi solos

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Divell (Jan 22, 2017)

Then again Orochimaru said Minato was better than him.


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## Gohara (Jan 22, 2017)

Minato wins with no to low difficulty IMO.  Orochimaru is powerful, but I don't consider him to be one of the most powerful characters in the series.  Itachi is portrayed as being significantly more powerful than Orochimaru, and Minato is arguably more powerful than Itachi.


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## Divell (Jan 22, 2017)

Gohara said:


> Minato wins with no to low difficulty IMO.  Orochimaru is powerful, but I don't consider him to be one of the most powerful characters in the series.  Itachi is portrayed as being significantly more powerful than Orochimaru, and Minato is arguably more powerful than Itachi.


That logic is stupid. Minato has no argument for him being stronger than Itachi, considering his only fight without Kyuubi Mode was against Obito, whom a more experienced version says that he would have died if Itachi knew about his powers.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Matty (Jan 22, 2017)

I don't really see how Oro can compete. Minato was on another level and you took away Oro's most powerful technique. Tbh he would need to be his war arc self with ET to win


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## Divell (Jan 22, 2017)

Minato's only above with Kyuubi's power. Other than that he has no way to put Orochimaru out for the count. While for Orochimaru all it takes is one bite.


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## Jackalinthebox (Jan 22, 2017)

I wonder if Oro would even be able to track Minato's movements if he were to use SM


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## Veracity (Jan 22, 2017)

Minato has no way to put down Oro?
> Elder Sages?
> Outlasting Oral rebirth?

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Mithos (Jan 22, 2017)

Orochimaru cannot directly land a hit on Minato, but in the Mitsuki gaiden, he was able to secretly slip a tiny snake onto his opponent and paralyze him with poison without him noticing. His opponent was no Minato, but that type of attack could potentially get Minato if he lets his guard down. 

Orochimaru's greatest assests in this fight are his longevity through regeneration and his underhanded tactics such as small venomous snakes and the White Snake's neurotoxins. 

The fight could go either way, I think.

Reactions: Like 2


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 22, 2017)

This is dependent on what you believe Minato is capable of.

 Orochimaru can't land a hit on Minato and prevent him from taking control over the entire location due to his incredible performance during the War Arc of scattering kunai multiple kilometers throughout the battlefield well before Tobirama arrived at the scene which would mitigate the efficacy of Orochimaru's jutsu, including Hydra, Summons, and his Vast Snake Swarm.

 On the other hand, Minato can't subdue Orochimaru and defeat him through conventional means due to Orochimaru's tenacity and peculiar physique. I wouldn't doubt Minato's ability to blitz Orochimaru before Orochimaru can initiate that, but his preternatural longevity would even put a stop to that.

 The question however is if you're willing to broaden your horizons and consider the potential Minato has through Fuinjutsu. I adhere to the notion that Minato's Fuinjutsu are quite devastating given that his library of fuinjutsu was derived from Kushina; someone who is a part of the Uzumaki clan who are the most profound specialists in Fuinjutsu and Kushina specifically exceed beyond what has been precedent for an Uzumaki, so it's no surprise to me that Minato would be capable of utilizing a sealing jutsu that can defeat Orochimaru.

 It's a great match and Orochimaru has other counters such as poison and White Snake neurotoxins, but the former seems somewhat unlikely while the latter is impractical because he'd have to sacrifice his vessel in order to have access to it, so Minato wins - mid-difficulty.


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## Dr. White (Jan 22, 2017)

Oro balances him pretty well. He directly counters some of Minato's strongest selling points.
- Orochimaru is no slouch physically. He was keeping pace with KN4 and literally jawwed it in the face (we saw what happened when Sakura made slight contact). His speed ranks at 4.5 as well. One cannot forget even Hebi sauce needed Oro sick in order to "kill" him.
- Oro counters marking with oral rebirth and general body manipulation with the upmost ease.
- Oro counters Minato's lack of versatile damaging moves by being able to survive things like bisection, Tsunade punches, chidori lance, various of other things like a direct katon to the face, etc. As a side note on this main topic Orochimaru's true body is a huge catch 22 to Minato. Striking and Tagging is gonna be a direct link to being poisoned (took out Sauce who had resistance), but letting him get away allows him to regroup and counter.
- Minato's field control is countered by Orochimaru's ridiculous amount of buffer jutsu ala Fuuton Gale and 10,000 Snakes jutsu in combo with his own variety of large snake summons. Oro can also use doton mole jutsu or leech bringer in order to phase through the battlefield.
- Orochimaru is more varied having access to all nature affinities, a 5 in genjutsu, Kusanagi plus swords in snakes, senjutsu, etc. 

So basically it's just a matter Orochimaru not being a dick and screwing around like he did vs Hiruzen. Orochimaru is competent enough to hold his own vs Minato and threaten him. While Minato is more skilled overall this is mitigated by Orochimaru's numerous match advantages. 50m is alot of room for Oro to operate and set shit up to boot ensuring there is no crazy bamflash theories here. Minato's only real options here are: BFR, sealing Oro's chakra and killing him in the interim, or Frog Song.
1.) Minato's only use of BFR has been vs Kyuubi and he went with him to boot. Even vs Ei and B + their squad he didn't resort to it. Not to mention Oro can slough off tags decreasing the overall chances.
2.) Sealing is possibly an option but Minato needs alot of time and concentration to pull off a seal on Oro. This requires Oro to be still which is not gonna happen and also assumes Oro won't know what's up and slough away via phasing, doton, or oral rebirth. It doesn't help that Oro himself has fuinjutsu knowledge enough to mess with Minato's seal.
3.) Really not IC for Minato to use. Minato's bread and butter is Hirashin. He is not J-man AKA the Toad Sorceror. Toads are more subsidiary to Minato (using Gamabunta to weigh down the Kyuubi for instance). Not only do Ma and Pa have to eb summoned, but they have to prep the jutsu themselves, and given it's outside in an open field, they would have to get extremely close to Orochimaru and shout it at him like they did vs Cerberus.

It will take Oro a good high diff fight to win, but his survivablity, overall balanced skillset, and snakes/poison will win the day for him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gohara (Jan 22, 2017)

@ Divell.

Minato's portrayal, at least to me, seems better than Obito's and I consider Obito to be at least around as powerful as or more powerful than Itachi.  As for the statement that you're referring to, wasn't that when Itachi implanted Amaterasu into Sasuke so it would be used against Obito?  In a fair one on one match up it wouldn't be that simple.

Keep in mind that I said arguable.  I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the idea that Itachi might be around as powerful as Minato.  I would argue that Itachi is unlikely to be more powerful than Minato, though, given that Kakashi stated that Naruto might be the first character to be more powerful than Minato.


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## savior2005 (Jan 23, 2017)

Divell said:


> Then again Orochimaru said Minato was better than him.


When was this? can you post the link?


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## Complete_Ownage (Jan 23, 2017)

Well I'm just going to replace Minato with Tobirama from the other thread.....

Orochimaru poisons him via some fodder level poison stuff and GG


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## t0xeus (Jan 23, 2017)

Minato Hiraishin lv2's Orochimaru till Orochimaru runs out of chakra to repair damage. Minato wins mid diff.


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## LostSelf (Jan 23, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> So basically it's just a matter Orochimaru not being a dick



Then you mean OOC Orochimaru? Because he's cocky even sleeping.

Minato has ways of killing Oro. Either by outlasting his Oral rebirth, or by forcing Oro to eat Shima and Fukusaku's cutting tongue. 

Might be a long battle, yeah, but with Hiraishin, Minato has all the time to hit him and avoid being hit.

And that's not mentioning the suppossed sealing techniques Minato might have.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Divell (Jan 23, 2017)

savior2005 said:


> When was this? can you post the link?


When he summoned the Kage, he was saying that the 3rd choose Minato over him.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 23, 2017)

Divell said:


> When he summoned the Kage, he was saying that the 3rd choose Minato over him.


that is only because Orochimaru was evil -- not because Minato was stronger than him

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Sapherosth (Jan 23, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Then you mean OOC Orochimaru? Because he's cocky even sleeping.
> 
> Minato has ways of killing Oro. Either by outlasting his Oral rebirth, or by forcing Oro to eat Shima and Fukusaku's cutting tongue.
> 
> ...





Might as well bring out Orochimaru's collection of forbidden jutsu's that he's supposedly studied over decades.


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## Divell (Jan 23, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> that is only because Orochimaru was evil -- not because Minato was stronger than him


That may also be the reason.


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## LostSelf (Jan 23, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Might as well bring out Orochimaru's collection of forbidden jutsu's that he's supposedly studied over decades.



Not very relevant unless there's a specification of a jutsu that can allow Oro to hit Minato.

On the other hand, we know what sealing jutsus are. And we know what they can do to Oro.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dr. White (Jan 23, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Then you mean OOC Orochimaru? Because he's cocky even sleeping.
> 
> Minato has ways of killing Oro. Either by outlasting his Oral rebirth, or by forcing Oro to eat Shima and Fukusaku's cutting tongue.
> 
> ...


- Actually end of manga Oro was much more calm, collected, and cool. 

- Minato has ways of killing Oro but they take extreme measures. Oro can slough tags off which is a disadvantage to the whole "minato tags him and blitzes all fight until Oro's out of chakra". Minato cannot be bitten once by the literal thousands of snakes Oro has. Minato has no knowledge on Oro's poisonus blood in true form either.

- Oro is a threat to Minato given the way he can shrug off damage to counter attack, his immense battlefield buffer, and options from ranged and close with good utility game (such as leech bringer, doton, and shadow clones).

- Minato cannot seal people. His only options with sealing would be 8 Trigram to seal Oro's chakra. Which again assumes Oro will be still enough for that lengthy process to occur.


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## savior2005 (Jan 23, 2017)

Divell said:


> When he summoned the Kage, he was saying that the 3rd choose Minato over him.





HandfullofNaruto said:


> that is only because Orochimaru was evil -- not because Minato was stronger than him


ya i figured that hiruzen chose minato cuz orochimaru was evil. orochimaru woulda been a amazing fourth hokage.


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## Divell (Jan 23, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Not seeing how Oro's dealing with a blitz or ftg+ constant decapitation, which he has to use oral rebirth to survive from. We already know that oral rebirth takes a lot of chakra, so why can't minato force Oro to use Oral rebirth and outlast him.


Manda comes to mind as a reason.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 23, 2017)

Divell said:


> Manda comes to mind as a reason.


 And..your acting as if Minato doesn't have summonings of his own.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Veracity (Jan 23, 2017)

MINATO HAS ACCESS TO FROG SONG. Why is everyone claiming he can't work his way around Oro's resilience?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Baroxio (Jan 24, 2017)

White Snake Mode Regeneration + Airborne Neurotoxins troll the shit out of Minato. Now, if Minato was an Edo and had Kurama, he could raze Orochimaru to the ground from half a mile away and not have to worry about shit. But living Minato without Kurama is primarily a CQC fighter, so...yeah. He gets trolled.


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## Divell (Jan 24, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> And..your acting as if Minato doesn't have summonings of his own.


Never shown any.



Veracity said:


> MINATO HAS ACCESS TO FROG SONG. Why is everyone claiming he can't work his way around Oro's resilience?


He said himself he had poor control and experience with Sage Mode. And has never stated nor argued to be able to do anything alike.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 24, 2017)

Divell said:


> Never shown any.


He use Yatai Kuzushi with Gamabunta when he faced with %100 Kyuubi.

And Gamabunta also noted no one ride him for too long (except Jiraiya) since yondaime died.

So he has access to toad summons.



Divell said:


> He said himself he had poor control and experience with Sage Mode


He doesnt need to, cuz jutsu is performed by Elder Toads only. w/o amphibian technique they're kinda open to offensive attempts but theoretically Minato still has access but ı think its out of character for that match-up.


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## Divell (Jan 24, 2017)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> He use Yatai Kuzushi with Gamabunta when he faced with %100 Kyuubi.
> 
> And Gamabunta also noted no one ride him for too long (except Jiraiya) since yondaime died.
> 
> ...


Ok, remind me how did the fight between Manda and Gamabunta would go down. And is remember is not the only snake he can summon, remember Aoda. And is doubtful Orochimaru will leave any of the frogs to live long enough to even charge chakra.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 24, 2017)

Divell said:


> Ok, remind me how did the fight between Manda and Gamabunta would go down


First of all you claim was "He hasnt summon".. And ı showed you. So your answer is kinda out of concept and irrelevant.




Divell said:


> he can summon, remember Aoda


Nope, Aoda is looks like at same age with Gamakichi and teamed up with Sasuke.. So ı dont think Orochimaru has access to Aoda and Manda II cuz due to OP of this topic.

But even if so; Ma & Pa + Gama Trio are still looks better (thanks to ma & pa).


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## Serene Grace (Jan 24, 2017)

Divell said:


> Never shown any.


 What? Do you actually read this manga that you're arguing about, lmfao.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 24, 2017)

why cant minato use multi shadow clone rasengan barrage or get a shadow clone to use reaper death seal

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 24, 2017)

Lord Aizen said:


> why cant minato use multi shadow clone rasengan barrage or get a shadow clone to use reaper death seal


Because the NBD thinks its "OOC" for Minato to be smart.


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 24, 2017)

Divell said:


> Never shown any.
> 
> 
> He said himself he had poor control and experience with Sage Mode. And has never stated nor argued to be able to do anything alike.



Frog song has nothing to do with minato though. Its ma and pa doing it.

Minato was a perfect sage he was better at using it than jiraiya was who couldn't even do it at all. He didnt say he had poor control he said he couldn't use it for long and it's not his style but because he's fighting orochimaru he'd probably have to use it to kill him

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Divell (Jan 24, 2017)

> people tag me after reading one of the comments.
> bunch of dumbass don't read the rest.


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## Baroxio (Jan 24, 2017)

Lord Aizen said:


> why cant minato use multi shadow clone rasengan barrage or get a shadow clone to use reaper death seal



A shadow clone using Reaper Death Seal still means death for the user. So, sure, he can always secure a tie with that move, but I wouldn't consider it much of a victory.

As for multi-shadow clones, do note that Living Minato has never used clones in the manga before. Only Edo Tensei Minato with access to 50% of the Kyuubi's chakra used shadow clones, and even then, it was a single clone. 

I'm not saying it's impossible for him, it's just highly out of character.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Because the NBD thinks its "OOC" for Minato to be smart.



If Mianto *could* use Reaper Death Seal via clones without sacrificing his soul, then both he and Hiruzen are literally the dumbest ever characters for not using it to solve literally all of their problems. Minato especially, given his version is ranged and requires almost no prep. So even in that scenario, "it's OOC for Minato to be smart."


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## Troyse22 (Jan 24, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Because the NBD thinks its "OOC" for Minato to be smart.



I wonder why?

Oh wait, because he looked right into the eyes of a Shinobi who he thought was Madara, a Shinobi who he knows wields insane power, as well as Sharingan/MS/EMS Genjutsu.

Not exactly the actions of a smart man.


In short: Minato's a dumbass.

Reactions: Disagree 5


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## Kyu (Jan 24, 2017)

Multi-Shadow Clone jutsu isn't really practical for Minato to use. Out of all shadow clone users in the manga, only Naruto has the staying power needed to abuse Tajū Kage Bunshin without immediate drawback.  

That said, Minato has four options to win: 1) Send Oro to the middle of nowhere, winning via BFR/Ringout. 2) Summoning Ma & Pa to cast Magen: Gama Rinshō. 3) Sealing via Shishō Fūin. 4) Butcher Oro until the snake runs outta chakra.

Meanwhile, all Oro has going for him is dubious toxins with no real guarantee of success against an opponent who's more than capable of landing numerous fatal strikes without getting touched by the aftermath of his assault.


Yondaime Hokage slays him. 


Pretty much all I have to say on the matter.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Jan 24, 2017)

Divell said:


> Never shown any.
> 
> 
> He said himself he had poor control and experience with Sage Mode. And has never stated nor argued to be able to do anything alike.


Are you sure you even know who Minato is?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Divell (Jan 24, 2017)

> people tag me after reading one of the comments.
> bunch of dumbass don't read the rest.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 24, 2017)

Divell said:


> > people tag me after reading one of the comments.
> > bunch of dumbass don't read the rest.


The comment you made before me posting didn't prove anything wrong about my stance. You clearly lacked knowledge on the manga, to say Minato hasn't shown any summoning lmfao, this was even confirmed in part 1, you'd have to not be paying attention at all, to say he doesn't have summonings when it was confirmed a plethora of times, throughout the manga

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I wonder why?
> 
> Oh wait, because he looked right into the eyes of a Shinobi who he thought was Madara, a Shinobi who he knows wields insane power, as well as Sharingan/MS/EMS Genjutsu.
> 
> ...


You're inclined to your own opinion bro, just dont think of it as a fact lmfao. Minato has consistently been portrayed as a genius, your flawed interpretation doesn't make much of a difference.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 24, 2017)

Minato has ways to defeat Oro, Kyu put them out pretty well.

Summons won't work because he'll just use the contract seal on Orochimaru, so stop the talk about Manda or his other boss summons please.

It comes down to Hydra vs. Minato if everything goes right for Orochimaru, and he still loses as Minato merely avoids the transformation until Orochimaru runs out of stamina manipulating the beast. It's speed feats aren't impressive.

That's presuming he doesn't decide to bring Ma/Pa out for some help, where Frog Song is likely brought up as an option. Bringing out Gamabunta and him failing to tame the beast could very well also lead to him suggesting Ma/Pa's help.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Divell (Jan 24, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> The comment you made before me posting didn't prove anything wrong about my stance. You clearly lacked knowledge on the manga, to say Minato hasn't shown any summoning lmfao, this was even confirmed in part 1, you'd have to not be paying attention at all, to say he doesn't have summonings when it was confirmed a plethora of times, throughout the manga


yes, I forgot he could summon Bamabunta, and that's as much we have seen done with the summonings. Manda has shown to be able to destroy him in a fight even with Jiraiya's help.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 24, 2017)

Divell said:


> yes, I forgot he could summon Bamabunta, and that's as much we have seen done with the summonings. Manda has shown to be able to destroy him in a fight even with Jiraiya's help.


its alright it happens to the best of us, sorry for being mean.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Divell (Jan 24, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> its alright it happens to the best of us, sorry for being mean.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 24, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> You're inclined to your own opinion bro, just dont think of it as a fact lmfao. Minato has consistently been portrayed as a genius, your flawed interpretation doesn't make much of a difference.



When has Minato been portrayed as a genius? Skilled with Hiraishin/speed sure, but intellect? Hell fucking naw fam.

Minato making a mistake in canon is not flawed interpretation, it's manga fact, he started directly into Obito's eyes who presumably had his sharingan active (why wouldn't he vs Konoha's yellow flash)

This has almost always shown to be a fatal error vs any high rated Uchiha (Sasuke, Itachi, Mads)

You know what won Minato that fight? Plot armor. There was no other reason for Obito to not put him under genjutsu right then and there.

Mads vs Ei-Mads puts Ei down until Onoki aids him.

Sasuke vs Bee- Sasuke momentarily incaps a perfect jin

Itachi vs Kakashi-Kakashi clowns him

Itachi vs Sasuke- Sasuke has to experience getting his eye ripped out before he breaks Tsukuyomi

Obito vs Kurama- Immediately places Kurama under genjutsu. Really, you think Obito putting Kurama under genjutsu, but him putting Minato who stares directly into his eyes is crazyness? 

Madara vs Kurama

Sasuke vs Danzo

and on and on and on. Plenty of higher tiers getting placed under genjutsu after making the momentary mistake of looking into their eyes. 

The only reason Minato was not KO'd 

right there

Is plot armor and nothing more. Don't call it false interpretation when you know ex-fucking-actly what it was. Plot armor.

Reactions: Disagree 3


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 25, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> When has Minato been portrayed as a genius? Skilled with Hiraishin/speed sure, *but intellect? Hell fucking naw fam.*


This is a joke right?

Its a joke or just freaking blatant downplay...

Jman outright calls him a genius, when in he company of another sannin

In shinden something or other, pretty sure its itachi shinden, its stated he had the highest academy scores ever, alongside itachi.

He deduced chidoris weakness after seeing it once, before kakashi himself, the techniques creator had even realized this, minato pointed it out to him.

Figured out the workings of Mads TSBs

Deduced Kamui from merely 2 encounters with the technique and countered it solo

Minato has been addressed by many as a genius and has proven time and time again to be worthy of such praise.



Troyse22 said:


> Minato making a mistake in canon is not flawed interpretation, it's manga fact, he started directly into Obito's eyes who presumably had his sharingan active (why wouldn't he vs Konoha's yellow flash)





Troyse22 said:


> This has almost always shown to be a fatal error vs any high rated Uchiha (Sasuke, Itachi, Mads)


Yep, guess minato is just so fast he can dance around eye contact with uchihas and still not be placed under genjutsu, making him the exception to the rule

Reactions: Like 2


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 25, 2017)

@Troyse22

Minato has constantly been portrayed as a genius; through refining Hiraishin, receiving the "Yellow Flash" alias as a result to inventing the Rasengan which maximized shape manipulation via rotation, a feat that was unprecedented. Even those who came before him were impressed by his ingenuity and intelligence as a whole, acknowledged by Tsunade (despite her detachment from Konoha and its Kages) and Jiraiya seemingly agrees.

This is excluding how Minato deciphered the downfalls of Madara's TSB and subsequently devised an elaborate that was instrumental in circumventing TSB.

It's implicit that there is tremendous perspicacity in learning and creating high-level techniques; refining Hiraishin, learning Rasengan, and mastering preternatural Fuinjutsu from the Uzumaki clan all illustrate his sheer intelligence perfectly. Not many ninja can accomplish this at all.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 25, 2017)

Nobody addressed the genjutsu plot armor issue...Interesting


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 25, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Nobody addressed the genjutsu plot armor issue...Interesting





WorldsStrongest said:


> Yep, guess minato is just so fast he can dance around eye contact with uchihas and still not be placed under genjutsu, making him the exception to the rule



Its not lolplot if minato is simply too fast for a sharingan user to genjutsu


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## Troyse22 (Jan 25, 2017)

He looked right into his eyes

Your point is bullshit.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 25, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> He looked right into his eyes
> 
> Your point is bullshit.





WorldsStrongest said:


> Its not lolplot if minato is simply too fast for a sharingan user to genjutsu


It happened too fast for obito to cast genjutsu *despite* the eye contact 

Thats how good the yellow flash is


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## Dr. White (Jan 25, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Its not lolplot if minato is simply too fast for a sharingan user to genjutsu


Which makes no sense given it takes a good millisecond (which means Minato would have to be faster than they could perceive like V2 Ei, which he is not) to cast when making eye contact, and Obito and Minato were clearly moving at similar speeds (see the classic if a train is leaving from Chicago at 6pm example). 

That instance is clearly PIS and Kishi focusing on Kamui vs FTG instead a hollistic battle like we do.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 25, 2017)

Minato was looking in general direction. No where was it shown it  he was looking in his eyes . He could have been looking at forehead neck, general direction doubt a guy who lived in Konoha would not know of uchihas eyes. 
Also Itachi do not cast genjutsu on kcm naruto despite him being in autopilot mode . I wonder why?


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## Dr. White (Jan 25, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Minato was looking in general direction. No where was it shown it  he was looking in his eyes . He could have been looking at forehead neck, general direction doubt a guy who lived in Konoha would not know of uchihas eyes.
> Also Itachi do not cast genjutsu on kcm naruto despite him being in autopilot mode . I wonder why?


He was looking directly at his eyes, and you don't need exact 100% gaze meeting. Itachi caught Killer Bee after dodging/casting a genjutsu and as Bee was about to wave his hand to block the shuriken/LOS, this being over sunglassess. 

The whole KCM Naruto is simealtaneously an equivocation fallacy (Minato is not KCM who casually was dusting Killer Bee in movement speed not even pure shushin speed which is V2 ei level), and an argument from ignorance ala "Itachi not casting it on Naruto is proof that he couldn't because of X". You're using a source of ignorance (Itachi not using genjutsu) as a syllogism to try and prove a separate positive claim.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 25, 2017)

It wasn't PIS, genjutsu takes focus, something Obito wouldn't likely have due to speed at which Minato moves. The Bee example is completely different as Bee and Itachi were stationary while staring at each others eyes. The scene makes it look like Minato and Obito slowed down, but they were actually moving 10 times faster than the picture depicts.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 25, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> He was looking directly at his eyes


Makes no sense why Tobi did not cast genjutsu . That was a easy win.
Obviously there was a speed factor and most likely  skill of genjutsu use. Tobi hardly uses it.


Dr. White said:


> The whole KCM Naruto is simealtaneously an equivocation fallacy (Minato is not KCM who casually was dusting Killer Bee in movement speed not even pure shushin speed which is V2 ei level), and an argument from ignorance ala "Itachi not casting it on Naruto is proof that he couldn't because of X". You're using a source of ignorance (Itachi not using genjutsu) as a syllogism to try and prove a separate positive claim.


See the bee case. Itachi had to evade all of bees attacks and only could genjutsu him when once he  was a  Stationery target.
Madara needed  to catch Ay to put him under genjutsu


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## Dr. White (Jan 25, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Its wasn't PIS, genjutsu takes focus, something Obito wouldn't likely have due to speed at which Minato moves. The Bee example is completely different as Bee and Itachi were stationary while staring at each others eyes. The scene makes it look like Minato and Obito slowed down, but their actually moving 10 times faster than the picture depicts.


This is plain false by feats and hype. There is a reason Might Gai (who is extremely fast being able to stop Kamui warp with physical speed/dexterity in base and scoring a 5) trained to look all the way down at the feet, and not the torso, neck, waist, etc. There is a reason Suna banned 1v1 fighting. Also once again Minato and Obito were clearly moving at similar speeds as was the same in the exact same scenario prior when Obito tried to chain Minato like a dumbass.There are multiple examples of your conclusion being flawed.
- Itachi catches Bee immediately after dodging Killer Bee from inches 
- Sasuke catches  (which is faster than base Minato hopping at Obito at the same speed.)
- Sasuke catches danzo in genjutsu without the latter noticing mid combat.
- Orochimaru gets caught on an incline no more than 3m away.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dr. White (Jan 25, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Makes no sense why Tobi did not cast genjutsu . That was a easy win.
> Obviously there was a speed factor and most likely  skill of genjutsu use. Tobi hardly uses it.


Because of PIS? Because Obito was being stupid as hell that whole fight form the get go?

You still aren't offering any argument other than from false equivalence/argument from ignorance. Genjutsu was literally never emphasized and Minato looked directly in Obito's eyes to figure he was Madara in the first place which is the same shit that cucked Diedara vs an experienced genjutsu user. Obito was trying to warp Minato that was emphasized the whole encounter by both Obito mentally noting that he needs to warp faster and chain Minato down, and Minato's own conclusion that it would come down to a speed battle.

See the bee case. Itachi had to evade all of bees attacks and only could genjutsu him when once he  was a  Stationery target.
Madara needed  to catch Ay to put him under genjutsu[/QUOTE]
Bee was not stationary, he actively leaned into to Itachi to swing who was aerial himself and mid casting. Sasuke caught v1 Bee meters away from him...

Ei can instantly charge V2 and dash at > amaterasu materializing speeds, so not sure why Minato is being brought up in comparison when he canonically rushes sharingan users (he did so twice to Obito).


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## Serene Grace (Jan 25, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> This is plain false by feats and hype. There is a reason Might Gai (who is extremely fast being able to stop Kamui warp with physical speed/dexterity in base and scoring a 5) trained to look all the way down at the feet, and not the torso, neck, waist, etc. There is a reason Suna banned 1v1 fighting.


This makes no sense. Genjustu has always required focus from the user,  you cant say its false when its icommon knowledge. I'm not sure how suna banning sharingan genjustu helps your point, they banned it from 1 on 1 occurrences due to needing another person to break you out, it has nothing to do with my original point.



Dr. White said:


> Also once again Minato and Obito were clearly moving at similar speeds as was the same in the exact same scenario prior when Obito tried to chain Minato like a dumbass.


Not sure what you're talking about. Kishimoto made it clear that Minato was faster, when he made Minato say "it's a battle of speed", and made Minato win that same said battle, so Minato was clearly faster. Lol Obito didn't physically react to Minato, he reacted with his kamui phasing, two completely different things, by that basis Obito is similar to V2 Ay in speed because he reacted with his phasing. Show me Obito physically reacting to Minato, then well talk.



Dr. White said:


> Itachi catches Bee immediately after dodging Killer Bee from inches


How does it make my conclusion wrong Bee and Itachi were completely stationary, while in Minato's and obito were both moving, and this was all against a guy who was physically faster than him. Again that scene was a lot faster than you actually think, it just slowed down to show the momentum of the fight, they were likely moving 10x faster than you it was made out to be.




Dr. White said:


> Orochimaru gets caught on a


Again Oro was standing stationary looking directly into Itachi's eyes, how does this correlate to Obito trying to put someone faster than him in a genjutsu, while he's moving fast as well? In fact trying to put Minato in genjutsu sounds stupider than not putting him in one given the situation he was in.



Dr. White said:


> Sasuke catches  (which is faster than base Minato hopping at Obito at the same speed.)


Sasuke only caught Killer Bee in a genjutsu after he reached a certain distance, it also doesn't hurt that Kishi made it *blatantly* obvious that Killer Bee was looking directly into Sasuke's eyes, whereas he didn't do such thing with minato and obito, indicating that Minato wasn't actually looking directly into his eyes.

Its like saying someone in a car moving at an extereme speed, would be able to catch eye contact with another driver going slightly faster than him.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 25, 2017)

There is still doubts on is he really looked at his eye.. And also why we never thinkin' like..

His shunshin +  throwin knife moment happened so fast he wasnt even able to think Genjutsu as a option. 

Cuz we have many Sharingan cqc fight in this series and many times genjutsu aint considered as fight ender.

Kakashi Vs Kakuzu
Kakashi Vs Zabuza
Kakashi Vs Deidara
Sasuke Vs Oroc
Itachi Vs Jiraiya
Sasuke Vs Bee
Sasuke Vs Raikage
etc
etc
etc

We have so many "looking to eye" moment and genjutsu didnt happened.. So if you find that moment PIS for Minato's favor.. Than all series is PIS.


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## Dr. White (Jan 25, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> This makes no sense. Genjustu has always required focus from the user,  you cant say its false when its icommon knowledge. I'm not sure how suna banning sharingan genjustu helps your point, they banned it from 1 on 1 occurrences due to needing another person to break you out.


No it doesn't. You have this notion that all genjutsu needs some lengthy prep when that is patently false. It takes the same amount of prep as all other jutsu pending it's mechanics. Sharingan genjutsu is nigh instant per canon and other genjutsu such as Tayuya's and Shi's can be used on a dime but just require playing the f;lute/seals respectively. No different than making seals for a suiton and the travel time of the suiton projectile.

Suna banning 1v1 battle vs sharingan is because a whole country literally said "well fuck it" due to how casually any generic 3 tomoe user can capture someone in genjutsu.




> Not sure what you're talking about. Kishimoto made it clear that Minato was faster, when he made Minato say "it's a battle of speed", and made Minato win that same said battle, so Minato was clearly faster. Lol Obito didn't physically react to Minato, he reacted with his kamui phasing, two completely different things, by that basis Obito is similar to V2 Ay in speed because he reacted with his phasing. Show me Obito physically reacting to Minato, then well talk.


- Minato never outdid Obito physically. Minato won the battle of S/T with cunning because Kamui was a better overall jutsu as admitted by Minato himself.
- Obito physically caught Minato's hand when he tried to counter strike at Obito appearing behind him. Obito then Kamui'd through Minato and was fast enough to physically chain Minato for seconds before he FTG'd out. Obito was dashing at Minato and meeting him halfway, if Minato was much faster than it would be like Bee vs Sasuke where Bee had covered a shit ton of distance.
- Minato is not comparable to V2 in physical movmeent speed so not sure why you are bringing V2 up or acting like I need to prove top tier feats for someone to physically react to Minato when Bee could intercept him from meters away after he instantly jumped to inches from Ei's back.




> How does it make my conclusion wrong Bee and Itachi were completely stationary, while in Minato's and obito were both moving, and this was all against a guy who was physically faster than him. Again that scene was a lot faster than you actually think, it just slowed down to show the momentum of the fight, they were likely moving 10x faster than you it was made out to be.


Because it shows that you need a fraction of a second to accomplish such. Minato and Obito were running at eachother and Obito was obviously keeping track of him if he was going to pinpoint warp him faster than Minato could hit him with Rasengan without the V2 trick. At no point was it emphasized that Minato was physically outspeeding Obito, the onl;y speed comparison between the two is when Minato intercepts Nardo from Obito, which of course is not a battle feat and of course is an Obito not looking at Minato. It was to show Minato is fast, not >> Obito specifically.





> Again Oro was standing stationary looking directly into Itachi's eyes, how does this correlate to Obito trying to put someone faster than him in a genjutsu, while he's moving fast as well? In fact trying to put Minato in genjutsu sounds stupider than not putting him in one given the situation he was in.


Oro was stationary after being caught because it was a binding genjutsu. Highly doubt Oro and Itachi were conversating from 2-3m before that happened. Oro was ambushing Itachi afterall.

It also shuts to bed this angle argument of "oh maybe Minato was looking at his forehead". Minato is literally lined up perfectly with Obito;'s LOS and saw his sharingan canonically. Combined with the fraction of a second feat in Bee vs Itachi it clearly outlines Minato can easily be genjutsu'd if he chose to keep bumrushing Uchiha's while looking at their faces.

There is literally no direct evidence to support to positive claim that Minato is too fast to physically capture in genjutsu.



> Sasuke only caught Killer Bee in a genjutsu after he reached a certain distance, it also doesn't hurt that Kishi made it *blatantly* obvious that Killer Bee was looking directly into Sasuke's eyes, whereas he didn't do such thing with minato and obito, indicating that Minato wasn't actually looking directly into his eyes.


the first patt of your response does nothing to help your argument..Bee covered all that distance for a number of reasons the first being Sasuke can't genjutsu Bee from the distance he began at, second V1 Bee is physically faster than Sasuke. So that shits on the notion of Minato being "so fast that people can't gnejutsu him as he bumrushes them looking at their face" given that Bee was faster than Sauce and got genjutsu'd at a range similar to the FTG vs Kamui conclusion, and V1 Bee is physically faster than Minato.



> Its like saying someone in a car moving at an extereme speed, would be able to catch eye contact with another driver going slightly faster than him.


You can...? If I drive by you at 75 mph and you going 60 I can def make brief eye contact. You act like Minato is 200mp compared to Obito's 50mph. Also Minato is not that fast that he is moving in slow mo in comparsion to others...Which essentially what you're implying if you believe his movement speed is always so casually fast that a genjutsu user cannot make a split second of eye contact with him. Once again in the Bee vs Sasuke scenario, Bee was obviously much faster. Sasuke could only mentally react (like Minato vs Ei) / make last second physicla movements, yet Bee got genjutsu'd right at the end.

So this goes against your "too fast to be genjutsu'd" notion along with the notion that sharingan genjutsu's require preperation which makes it inefffective vs opponents faster than you.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## theRonin (Jan 25, 2017)

Minato summons future Kakashi, who then proceeds to solo Orochimaru.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Kuzehiko (Jan 25, 2017)

Minato stomps, do I really need to explain myself?
This is saying everything though, don't forget this.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Blaze Release (Jan 25, 2017)

Not sure how this turned into a genjutsu vs Minato thread, but this is all ill say.
It appears a lot of people have claimed Minato's speed is the reason why Obito didn't manage to cast Genjutsu on him.
While that may be true, there could be other reasons.

1. Obito's main fighting style is kamui and he intended on teleporting Minato with kamui the second time. He got away the first time. Not to forget this was a battle of speed. Kamui vs Hiraishin.

2. We know that Controlling kurama or any bijuu for that matter requires a high degree of concentration. Obito to use the same sharingan to control kurama and use kamui at the same time is an impressive feat. However for him to also try to cast genjutsu on Minato, whilst having Kurama is an illusion and using kamui may be too much for him.

3. His mask is too hollow. Tobi has partnered Diedara a sharingan hater for some time and he never knew that his partner is an uchiha with the sharingan. Likewise nobody but kakashi due to the sharingan managed to see that Tobi had the sharingan. This was during the rescue arc.

4. Minato was not looking at his eyes.

5. Plot

The list goes on, why Obito didn't try this. But like i said the idea that his speed is what makes it difficult i am not buying and this is why. For example, Sasuke's sharingan was able to track EI in v1 and with his body speed managed to evade EI and land a hit on him. At V2 it couldn't. But Ei only pumps more chakra to achieve his V2 when he needs to evade something or is enraged. Otherwise his usual battle speed is V1.

From what i have gathered Minato's base speed would be roughly that V1 EI and that is being generous as its been established his reaction time is comparable to base EI. Secondly he chose hiraishin and not his footspeed to evade him.

To put it simply if the sharingan can keep up with V1 EI it is keeping up with Base Minato therefore genjutsu is possible.
Now to hiraishin... Alot of people seem to think Minato constantly teleports non stop, like a bee, buzzing all over the place. We know this isn't true. He teleports to attack and defend (he also uses his body speed, weapons, summons etc). forgetting him tekleporting to attack as that is irrelevant to my point; teleporting to defend is. For Minato to teleport to evade an attack he would have to see the attack, then react to it by teleporting to a safe location.

However when he doesn't see or perceive the attack this is what happens
cucked Diedara vs an experienced genjutsu user.
cucked Diedara vs an experienced genjutsu user.

The above was ninjutsu, but my point is that genjutsu isn't an attack that minato can see. Sure if he fights an uchiha who has the sharingan activated or the ms, he would be very cautious i'd imagine. But he still cannot use hiraishin to teleport/evade an attack like genjutsu, an attack that attacks the mind. This kinda of attacks is different from somebody charging at him or ninjutsu where he can teleport to a safe location, the threat is there for all to see. Genjutsu isn't, therefore he would have no reason to teleport to evade what he cannot see/anticipate. Not forgetting Sharingan genjutsu is instant. Minato's reaction isn't.

Minato's best bet would be to keep is sensing ability activated throughout a fight with a genjutsu user as that is where he would gain his awareness from these type of attacks, then break free (assuming he could) in time enough to then teleport to a safe place, because his eyes will not help him.


OT - by feats Minato takes it high diff. Orochimaru is difficult to kill, but not impossible. His abilities is fuelled by chakra. When he runs out of chakra, that should be it.
By hype Minato takes it Mid diff. We know that apart from nuking orochimaru to death, the other way of getting the better of him is through fuinjutsu. We know that Minato was an expert.


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## Bookworm (Jan 25, 2017)

What defense does Minato have against Fushi Tensei or Formation of ten thousand snakes? The formation can counter FTG with snakes at every kunai.


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## Kyu (Jan 26, 2017)

Ablaze said:


> From what i have gathered Minato's base speed would be roughly that V1 EI and that is being generous as *its been established his reaction time is comparable to base EI.*



Seeing as FTG is unavoidably contingent on the user's reactions, and Ay basically admitted his _top speed_ fails to measure up to FTG(and by extension Minato's insane reaction time), I'm gonna say the bold is false.

Had Minato's reactions truly been no higher than base raikage's, he wouldn't be reacting to "v2" Raikage on a consistent basis. Nor would he have, as a nerfed Edo, intercepted Madara's Truth-Seekers & teleported outta range before the disintegration process could even commence.

Cee was talking out of his ass; don't take unsupported statements from biased characters at face value.

_________


Ok, now I'm done.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 26, 2017)

Kyu said:


> Seeing as FTG is unavoidably contingent on the user's reactions, and Ay basically admitted his _top speed_ fails to measure up to FTG(and by extension Minato's insane reaction time), I'm gonna say the bold is false.
> 
> Had Minato's reactions truly been no higher than base raikage's, he wouldn't be reacting to "v2" Raikage on a consistent basis. Nor would he have, as a nerfed Edo, intercepted Madara's Truth-Seekers & teleported outta range before the disintegration process could even commence.
> 
> ...



 Except Deidara reacted to Hebi Sasuke on a consistent basis. Obito would also phase through V2 Raikage's Shunshin incessantly in spite of the difference in reaction speed between them.


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 26, 2017)

Baroxio said:


> A shadow clone using Reaper Death Seal still means death for the user. So, sure, he can always secure a tie with that move, but I wouldn't consider it much of a victory.
> 
> As for multi-shadow clones, do note that Living Minato has never used clones in the manga before. Only Edo Tensei Minato with access to 50% of the Kyuubi's chakra used shadow clones, and even then, it was a single clone.
> 
> ...



we barely got any panel time of minato. we only saw 2 fights. And it is in character for minato to use clones he has named combination attacks which incorporate clones which just never saw them. Minato can make one clone at a time and go up from there, use shadow clone jutsu multiple times.

Im going to have to reread the hiruzen vs orochimaru fight to see if hiruzen was dying after his clones used the move, from what I recall he seemed fine


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 26, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Because the NBD thinks its "OOC" for Minato to be smart.



when it comes to people that are hard to kill Minato will do what he needs to do secure that win.


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## Kyu (Jan 26, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Except Deidara reacted to Hebi Sasuke on a consistent basis.



Because his reactions were up to snuff.  He's a man that avoided getting touched by the entirety of team Gai while armless.



UchihaX28 said:


> Obito would also phase through V2 Raikage's Shunshin incessantly in spite of the difference in reaction speed between them.



Again, another case of one's reaction time being sufficient, which isn't really a surprise given MS Sasuke could also react. Both Mangekyo wielders are comfortably above base Ay in reactions, as is any other shinobi that successfully responds to "v2" Ay.

At the end of the day: words from a more credible individual backed up by on panel evidence >>> 1 statement from a biased party that overtly conflicts with an established narrative. 



________




> Ok, now I'm done.



lyin' hoe.

no srsly, last post ITT


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## Sapherosth (Jan 26, 2017)

I thought the reason why Obito didn't wtfpwn Minato with genjutsu was because he was occupied with Kurama. Minato even stated that Obito couldn't possibly control Kurama with genjutsu for long, that's why Obito was rushing to end the battle.

Reactions: Like 2 | Useful 1


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## Blaze Release (Feb 1, 2017)

Kyu said:


> Seeing as FTG is unavoidably contingent on the user's reactions, and Ay basically admitted his _top speed_ fails to measure up to FTG(and by extension Minato's insane reaction time), I'm gonna say the bold is false.
> 
> Had Minato's reactions truly been no higher than base raikage's, he wouldn't be reacting to "v2" Raikage on a consistent basis. Nor would he have, as a nerfed Edo, intercepted Madara's Truth-Seekers & teleported outta range before the disintegration process could even commence.
> 
> ...



Not really the type to take character statements seriously as we have seen words such as 'invincible', ' unsurpassable',, etc.. Thrown around alot. However i believe we can distinguish between character statements an in fact there is a difference between biased character statement and a character giving us unbiased information.

I'm not going to go through what a biased statement is as there are loads. However an unbiased statement is for example Danzo stating that Itachi is better at genjutsu than Sasuke. Or Shee stating that Sasuke is better at amaterasu than Itachi. This same Shee told us that once's Ei clouds himself in his raiton his reaction time surpasses that of the 4th. From what i have gathered when a character usually neutral makes such a statement they compare the two ninja's in questions ability and state who is superior in which department.

Its not too hard to understand why Ei (who's base reaction is underrated) should have a greater reaction time when he activates his raiton. That form seems to combine his shunshin with his raiton and if i remember correctly was said to stimulate their nervous system. He has now gone beyond sennin modo users who i also believe should have greater reaction time than Minato.

Anyway to end this. Reaction time is basically processing the situation and how quickly you can react to it.
Whilst Minato's ability to process a situation is very impressive that is one part of the equation. The second part which is how quickly he can react to it, he has a 'cheat' which is hiraishin, which doesn't require any body movement. And its body movement that usually forms the second part of reaction time; how quickly a person can react to something. 

Sure any hiraishin user would have to have good reaction time to use hiraishin to its fullest. However they only truly make use of the first stage of reaction; which s the mental process. But there is no body movement involved in their part to consider this a fair judgement of reaction time; and that is most likely why he resorted to Hiraishin as he lacks the body movement of EI in raiton to compete with his speed and reaction time. Simply put him in the same situation as EI here. With Hiraishin he should escape. Without it his body movement (and i believe mental process considerable what the raiton does to his nervous system) which pales in comparison to EI will not allow him to react to this situation (Like in their first reunion) like EI did; thus making his reaction time slower than EI.

Anyway that's my thoughts on this anyway....


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## nmwn93 (Feb 2, 2017)

i'm too tired to do a long post and explanation. I'm taking orochimaru. I always felt like he was always overated while orochimaru is in my opinion underrated. he cant kill orochimaru and I think orochimaru is smarter than him. he need only slip up to be killed speed is one thing but not everything I think oro can out last him also. but whatever. minato is so over hyped on this forum its enough to give a person a heart attack

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## StarWanderer (Feb 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> vs
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dont have one regarding this?

Oh, that sweet Minato hate all over Battledome.

Itachi effortlessly cut off Orochimaru's arm with his simple kunai. Guess what happens when he fights Minato. Orochimaru wont be able to react and use Oral Rebirth in time. He will get killed.


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## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2017)

Any proof obito could have used genjutsu considering he was actively controlling kurama already 
Would love some feats of any uchiha controlling one person and then trying to cast genjutsu on another 

Seems there is plot everywhere then 
Sasuke was looking directly at Ay and Ay didn't suddenly get caught in génjutsu

Whats hilarious is if someone who is far faster with better reactions than kisame can get caught in genjutsu 

Then erm well kisame should get played 

Bias much


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## StarWanderer (Feb 4, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Any proof obito could have used genjutsu considering he was actively controlling kurama already
> Would love some feats of any uchiha controlling one person and then trying to cast genjutsu on another
> 
> Seems there is plot everywhere then
> ...



How do you know that in any of these cases, Uchiha's opponents were looking *directly* into their eyes?

Anyway, Minato curbstomps. Even if ET is prepped, that wont change the outcome.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2017)

*THIS SHOULD BE INTERESTING (IN MY OROCHIMARU VOICE)*


*Spoiler*: _My Two Cents And Then I'm Out_

Reactions: Funny 1


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2017)

@IzayaOrihara I think Minato would beat Orochimaru even with FTG restricted.

If you can't counter with scans I'll accept your formal concession.


*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Funny 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> @IzayaOrihara I think Minato would beat Orochimaru even with FTG restricted.
> 
> If you can't counter with scans I'll accept your formal concession.


I said I wasn't going to get involved in this debate so what's the deal with you. And yeah I can prove Prime Orochimaru can defeat Minato Namikaze with High-Extreme Difficulty. With scans. But I am not going to sit here till 6AM in the morning organising posts. Just read my posts from . No need for me to regurgitate posts I've already constructed in the past. If you can't be bothered to read the total of two pages in this thread, then fine, it wouldn't be the first time ive experienced ignorance on this site. But I won that Orochimaru vs Minato debate. Everything you want to know is there. Enjoy the read.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2017)

@IzayaOrihara that was then, this is now.

Step up to the plate or I'll be forced to call your bluff and unavoidably accept your informal concession.

Don't make me repeat myself again.
. . . . . . . . .

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> @IzayaOrihara that was then, this is now.



It's the same Orochimaru and the same Minato from the same Naruto manga. The same information is still valid in the same debate. Is this debate meant to be between me and you or is this one you're just doing for show so you can get a popularity vote and rep in this forum when I use manga facts and then you constrict lies to make me look stupid and claim you won the debate, as per usual. If that is the case then let's just draw a line under this here because I don't have time to waste now. It's 2017 goddamn. You think there aren't better things I could be doing right now? Go and read the posts. It's like 5 posts across 2 pages of a small thread. It's not that hard.



> Step up to the plate or I'll be forced to call your bluff and unavoidably accept your informal concession.



Don't use imperatives against me. This just seems like a classic cop out from an Itachi/Minato/Tobirama etc fanboy (you fall into the Tobirama category). I've seen this, been there, done that.

(0:50 - 0:51 Mark Sums You [And Many Other Users On This Forum] Up)

If you're that concerned about putting up a show for the rest of the forum so you can receive the applause for it, then copy and paste my posts from there and put them here so that way you can be shown as the loser of the debate. If you are actually serious, then either read my posts from there (which you probably didn't do the first time round if you were in that debate so now is the time to go and do it) or invite me to a private conversation and I will copy and paste the posts for you and you can read it there. I'm not interested in being a part of your pantomime, which like every other one on this forum is just one where an Orochimaru hater fabricates lies and uses popularity fallacy to counter IzayaOrihara's manga scans and logical inferences/regurgitate facts from the author himself, so that Izaya can be mad easily to look like a fool who everyone laughs at, and then Izaya-kun gets pissed off, insults the whole forum and then gets banned/asks to be banned out of frustration. Don't you get tired of that same old routine?



> Don't make me repeat myself again.



Don't speak to me in a condescending tone. You never even had to repeat yourself once so who are you actually talking to like that? Loosen that tongue of yours quickly.



> . . . . . . . . .


. . . . . . . . . 


Honestly, like I said and predicted you would do so, if you can't be bothered to read and just want to ignore the facts that have already been laid out for you, then that's fine. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it because I don't care about this forum anymore. I'm only here on a day visit after four months. And if it helps you sleep, you can pretend to have won debate that never even started because you chickened out (but as per usual, you used your fancy English and literacy [" Step up to the plate or I'll be forced to call your bluff and unavoidably accept your informal concession. "] to make me look like I am the cop out. Same old routine. Make Izaya look dumb because his logic is too intelligent for the likes of you).

And if you feel like I am copping out? Fine, because what you are doing to me right now by refusing to read my already made posts is what every Minato/Itachi/Tobirama fan/Sannin hater has done to me in the history of my time here on Naruto Forums.

Time to go listen to my N.W.A/Snoop albums now. I don't got time for the bullsh*t. Because like every thread that involves "Minato/Itachi/sometimes Tobirama" vs "insert Legendary Sannin member" it's just gonna turn into a back and forth mudslinging match. Or you can just make this easy and  for once in your life. (I see nothing has changed on his forum where the willingness to read Izaya's logic is concerned. But I understand though. I feel the same way when someone asks me to read a PHD Level Mathematics Textbook. Too much intellect your head begins to hurt).


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## Troyse22 (Feb 9, 2017)

Says he doesn't give a darn, posts an essay showing he gives a fuck.

Oh your return is going to give me quite a few chuckles


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Says he doesn't give a darn, posts an essay showing he gives a fuck.
> 
> Oh your return is going to give me quite a few chuckles



I am not returning. I am here on a day visit. And that post was made to tell him (and anyone else who wants to ruffle my feathers) that if see are having any debate we do it the easy way or we don't do it at all. He can choose not to read ready made posts from where this debate was last left off if he chooses, but either way I don't really care. Yo should have gathered that from my post, but then again, picking up information in a text of English words isn't one of your specialities is it?


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## Troyse22 (Feb 9, 2017)

IzayaOrihara said:


> I am not returning. I am here on a day visit. And that post was made to tell him (and anyone else who wants to ruffle my feathers) that if see are having any debate we do it the easy way or we don't do it at all. He can choose not to read ready made posts from where this debate was last left off if he chooses, but either way I don't really care. Yo should have gathered that from my post, but then again, picking up information in a text of English words isn't one of your specialities is it?




Nobody is trying to "ruffle your feathers"

Saying you addressed something 4+months ago is irrelevant. Nobody is going to accept that as an argument. 

But I suppose someone who thinks an unrestricted Itachi loses to Orochimaru isn't all that bright to begin with.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Nobody is trying to "ruffle your feathers"
> 
> Saying you addressed something 4+months ago is irrelevant. Nobody is going to accept that as an argument.
> 
> But I suppose someone who thinks an unrestricted Itachi loses to Orochimaru isn't all that bright to begin with.


Well that's fine then, but I personally feel no need to fight a battle I won 4 months ago, because I will waste more time of my very short life winning this argument again today, then in another 4 months time people will be calling me back here to fight this same debate again acting as if I have never done so before in the past, all whilst making me look like I am an illiterate fool. I just haven't the time to do this today, or ever. It's just Round and round and back and forth. What is actually the fucking point. Orochimaru's beats Minato with Extreme Diff, can people fucking get over themselves. It's not that big of a deal.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Sapherosth (Feb 9, 2017)

This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.

Reactions: Winner 5


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## Lili Daisuki (Feb 10, 2017)

Alive minato would mid diff normal Oro while sage Kurama minato would low dif normal oro.then,alive minato would high diff eos Oro while sage Kurama minato would mid diff eos oro


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## Dr. White (Feb 10, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.


Yooooo, I just popped in to catch this shit. I literally CAN'T!


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## Lili Daisuki (Feb 11, 2017)

Even hiruzen stopped the resurrection of minato cause he was very wary of him.hiruzen didn't fear oro at all.anyway,there's no way in hell itachi is stronger than or as strong as minato when shinobi were ordered to flee on sight of minato.but itachi's case was just 'dn't look into his eyes'.shinobi are meant to die for a cause but for iwa superiors to advice their shinobi to not even bother to die while fighting him speaks volumes of his strengh


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## JuicyG (Jun 18, 2018)

Hey guys. Minato wins low diff. Because Kishi. @Maverick04


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jun 18, 2018)

Minato high difficulty.

He’s portrayed on a different level, but Orochimaru still presents some stylistic problems based on what we know which prevents the easy win.

Minato probably wins through Frog Song, or attrition, or a seal, or something unknown.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1 | Lewd 1


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## savior2005 (Jun 18, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Minato high difficulty.
> 
> He’s portrayed on a different level, but Orochimaru still presents some stylistic problems based on what we know which prevents the easy win.
> 
> Minato probably wins through Frog Song, or attrition, or a seal, or something unknown.


Agree that Minato wins, but can't he just repeatedly hack and slash orochimaru till orochimaru's rebirth is over? I feel like rebirth is more chakra consuming compared to FTG. Minato could also put a FTG seal on Orochimaru the first moment he catches him. Minato can react to raikage and obito, so i have a hard time seeing orochimaru tagging him (not that he can't do so)


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## FlamingRain (Jun 18, 2018)

We have had a serious problem with necroing threads the past couple weeks...


Just make a new one.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 18, 2018)

oro wins either w/ poison or surprise oral kusanagi


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## Shazam (Jun 18, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Minato high difficulty.
> 
> _He’s portrayed on a different level, *but *_Orochimaru still presents some stylistic problems based on what we know which prevents the easy win.
> 
> Minato probably wins through Frog Song, or attrition, or a seal, or something unknown.





Shazam said:


> ..then *every single NBD debate would be simply answered by portrayal*. Im sure youre not in agreement with that, are you?





Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> More or less, *yes*.



There should be no '_but_'. Portrayal is everything and all things. And by portrayal, Minato stomps. (That didnt take long) lol


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## Shazam (Jun 18, 2018)

@Orochimaruwantsyourbody Your going to neg me because I caught you tripping up on your own logic? That's a bit of poor sportsmanship wouldn't you say lol Dont worry, I'm not mad at ya


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jun 18, 2018)

Shazam said:


> @Orochimaruwantsyourbody Your going to neg me because I caught you tripping up on your own logic? That's a bit of poor sportsmanship wouldn't you say lol Dont worry, I'm not mad at ya


That you posted one line from five or six posts? There is no contradiction in logic. Minato is more powerful and also more likely to win the matchup.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shazam (Jun 18, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> That you posted one line from five or six posts? There is no contradiction in logic. Minato is more powerful and also more likely to win the matchup.



That you literally said (please dont make me quote the whole thing / unless you edited it to change your wording already to avoid being wrong), portrayal is the only thing that matters in every single fight, when I asked, you said '_more or less, yes_'.

Either way, you felt it was necessary to neg more about your trip on logic, so I consider this my win, and now moving on


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## savior2005 (Jun 18, 2018)

Shazam said:


> That you literally said (please dont make me quote the whole thing / unless you edited it to change your wording already to avoid being wrong), portrayal is the only thing that matters in every single fight, when I asked, you said '_more or less, yes_'.
> 
> Either way, you felt it was necessary to neg more about your trip on logic, so I consider this my win, and now moving on


I don't mean to butt in, but I think I understand what @Orochimaruwantsyourbody meant. It's kinda like how Killer bee is a tier above Kisame, yet Kisame is a great Matchup against Killer Bee (not saying he'd always win, but he is a decent matchup). Same with Kakashi and MS Obito. Portrayals are a huge factor, but matchup's are relevant too.

Still, idk y he would neg you for that

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1


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## Shazam (Jun 18, 2018)

savior2005 said:


> I don't mean to butt in, but I think I understand what @Orochimaruwantsyourbody meant. It's kinda like how Killer bee is a tier above Kisame, yet Kisame is a great Matchup against Killer Bee (not saying he'd always win, but he is a decent matchup). Same with Kakashi and MS Obito. Portrayals are a huge factor, but *matchup's are relevant too*.
> 
> Still, idk y he would neg you for that



That is exactly what Ive been arguing for. Portrayal matters to a point, but its obvious that stylistic match ups matter almost just as much if not more in certain fights. That should be common sense

Reactions: Like 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jun 18, 2018)

Shazam said:


> That you literally said (please dont make me quote the whole thing / unless you edited it to change your wording already to avoid being wrong), portrayal is the only thing that matters in every single fight, when I asked, you said '_more or less, yes_'.
> 
> Either way, you felt it was necessary to neg more about your trip on logic, so I consider this my win, and now moving on


Quote the whole conversation, then quote the post from this thread.


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## savior2005 (Jun 18, 2018)

Shazam said:


> That is exactly what Ive been arguing for. Portrayal matters to a point, but its obvious that stylistic match ups matter almost just as much if not more in certain fights. That should be common sense


o my bad lol, I actually thought it was you who was suggesting that portrayals are all that matter.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jun 18, 2018)

savior2005 said:


> I don't mean to butt in, but I think I understand what @Orochimaruwantsyourbody meant. It's kinda like how Killer bee is a tier above Kisame, yet Kisame is a great Matchup against Killer Bee (not saying he'd always win, but he is a decent matchup). Same with Kakashi and MS Obito. Portrayals are a huge factor, but matchup's are relevant too.
> 
> Still, idk y he would neg you for that


The actual argument in question was about a different poster claiming Kakashi would lose to Itachi if they fought in the Manga but beat him in BD, and the argument that followed was about Kishimoto’s supremacy to random BD posters. 

The neg came because Shazam decides to start stalking me over a four word post in a two page thread.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Maverick04 (Jun 19, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Hey guys. Minato wins low diff. Because Kishi. @Maverick04


Oh boy, somebody got salty over my comment digging up a year old post..I dont think Minato would low diff Orochimaru coz there's a thing called matchup..Moreover they both are in the same tier..Minato is gonna have to work for his win here coz he doesnt really have anything in his arsenal to kill Orochimaru for good..But we do know that Minato has learnt several Uzumaki fuinjutsus and..He can also go for BFR by teleporting Orochimaru via his clone..If this is Orochimaru with edo tensei, then sure he neg diffs Minato


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 19, 2018)

Minato wins. He's a superior combatant in all areas except durability.


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