# Admiral Kizaru gauntlet



## Captain Altintop (Feb 8, 2015)

Location: Corrida Colosseum
Mindset: Bloodlusted
Knowledge: Manga 
Distance: 50 m each fight.
Healing: Off

Can Kizaru manage to get past through ??

1) Yami Teach (pre skip)

2) DD

3) Marco


----------



## Luke (Feb 8, 2015)

Kizaru destroys Yami Teach with no difficulty. His long ranged offensive output will tear Blackbeard apart. He doesn't even need to get near him, and Teach definitely doesn't have the speed to even try to catch up to Kizaru. Whitebeard, within an inch of his life, humiliated Teach. He just has nothing going for him against legit Top Tiers. 

Kizaru beats Doflamingo with mid difficulty. Doflamingo's a seriously notable NW pirate, and will definitely force Kizaru to at least become serious to defeat him. He may not deal Borsalino much, if any, damage, but he's not going down easily either. 

A somewhat tired Kizaru beats Marco with high difficulty.


----------



## Ruse (Feb 8, 2015)

1) Kizaru low diffs Teach

2) Kizaru mid (low) diffs Doffy

3) Kizaru/Marco could go either way


----------



## Captain Altintop (Feb 8, 2015)

1) Kizaru (100%) beats Yami-Teach with mid-low diff. 

2) Kizaru (90%) beats DD with mid diff. 

3) Kizaru (70%) beats Marco with extreme diff. 

=> Kizaru with 10% survives and barely clears imo.


----------



## Coruscation (Feb 8, 2015)

Kizaru should make it. Yami Teach and DD won't be able to do anything to significantly weaken him. At most he's weary enough to push the fight vs. Marco to a genuine extreme diff.


----------



## Bernkastel (Feb 8, 2015)

He stops at Marco.
Low diffs Teach and then mid diffs DD.
Marco would give a fresh Kizaru a very high diff imo so he beats this Kizaru with very high diff.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 8, 2015)

Kizaru low diffs Teach. Teach has taken blows from Buddha Sengoku and WB all in the same hour. It's gonna take a bit to put him down, and Teach can shroud himself in darkness making a zone where Kizaru can't approach. Teach has town level Darkness scope, and Kizaru's gonna have to bring out the mangrove kicks, or just go in with haki and stats to win. Teach w/out a DF was able to injure shanks and Yami Teach nullified Sengoku and WB so Yami Teach could at best push Mid diff. But I see Kizaru trolling his way through with low (high low).

Doflamingo gets beat somewhere between low and Mid diff. I think Kizaru's ability is really well set against Doflamingo's, and he doesn't have the feats of parasiting a Mid Top Tier. Black Knight, his mobility, and range can prob buy him sometime before death, but he'll be forced to go all out at some point which won't be enough vs Kizaru. Given Dofla's ability to break out of Aokiji's Ice, and his clash with Fujitora, I could see it going to Mid diff, especiallysince he fought Yami Teach beforehand.

Kizaru vs Marco
Hmmm, it all comes down to how strong you think Marco is. After 2 High Tiers Kizaru will atleast have broken a sweat, and be down a bit of stamina. Some people think Marco is just under Admirals so it may even the playing field. But personally I think he is top of low top tier, and while his Haki and physical stats are impressive, he doesn't really have the DC IMO to keep up with Kizaru. Kizaru gonna be dropping casual town level kicks, along with Haki attacks of his own. Marco's regen will allow him to survive it for a while, like a real long while, but Kizaru being a Logia with great Haki will be good as well. I can see this battle going on for days, but in the end Kizaru will come out on top. Marco will push him extreme diff and take the smile off of is face.


----------



## Raiden34 (Feb 8, 2015)

Lol. Kizaru is not going to low diff. Yami Teach, Teach resisted destructive fire attacks from Ace, lazers are not going to beat him easily, especially while Kizaru is going to caught by his Yami, Kizaru can't win this without difficulty.

Mid diff. DD

High diff. Marco


----------



## Gohara (Feb 8, 2015)

Kizaru stops at Doflamingo.  He defeats Blackbeard with mid to high difficulty.  He's faster, more agile, and has significantly better Haki.  Doflamingo defeats Kizaru at around 35% with low to mid difficulty.  Both are physically strong, fast, agile, have great combat ability, have powerful Devil Fruits, and have great Haki.  However, Kizaru is significantly battle worn in that fight.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 8, 2015)

Stops at Marco or clears.


Marco1907 said:


> Lol. Kizaru is not going to low diff. Yami Teach, Teach resisted destructive fire attacks from Ace, lazers are not going to beat him easily, especially while Kizaru is going to caught by his Yami


Yasakani no Magatama, laser through the brain, or lightspeed kicks. Pick the way Blackbeard leaves this world.


Marco1907 said:


> Kizaru can't win this without difficulty.


Did you miss the part where a half faced Whitebeard stomped Blackbeard?


----------



## Freechoice (Feb 8, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Hmmm, it all comes down to how strong you think Marco is.



Every fight comes down to how strong you think X is, lol


----------



## Amol (Feb 8, 2015)

He is not passing through Marco.
To beat Yami Teach he has to enter CQC.
He can't just lollaser Darknessman.
He can't use his sword either .
Of course he will win though.
Yami Teach is the same guy who tanked attacks from WB and Sengoku.
Kizaru would win with Mid(low) diff.
DD by his own right can give Kizaru mid diff fight.
Kizaru defeats him with total diff Mid(high) to High(low).
Marco then Mid diffs Kizaru.
Yami Teach and Doflamingo are one of the strongest high tiers.
No one is gonna breeze through them .


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 8, 2015)

Amol said:


> He is not passing through Marco.
> To beat Yami Teach he has to enter CQC.
> He can't just lollaser Darknessman.
> He can't use his sword either .
> ...


Kizaru can just jump out of range and rain down Yasakani no Magatama until there's nothing left of Blackbeard.
But lets say Kizaru does somehow get caught in Black Vortex. Remember Blackbeard vs Ace? Ace was able to land hits even when getting drawn in. And Kizaru's durability should be in the same ballpark as Akainu and Aokiji's, Blackbeard couldn't even break Ace's neck in one hit, so his punches aren't going to do much to Kizaru.


----------



## Rob (Feb 8, 2015)

Lol said:


> Every fight comes down to how strong you think X is, lol



No, no, no... 

Every fight comes down to how strong you think X is,_ Dr. White_


----------



## Amol (Feb 8, 2015)

Issho said:


> Kizaru can just jump out of range and rain down Yasakani no Magatama until there's nothing left of Blackbeard.
> But lets say Kizaru does somehow get caught in Black Vortex. Remember Blackbeard vs Ace? Ace was able to land hits even when getting drawn in. And Kizaru's durability should be in the same ballpark as Akainu and Aokiji's, Blackbeard couldn't even break Ace's neck in one hit, so his punches aren't going to do much to Kizaru.


So Kizaru uses YnK and Yami Teach just stands there?
He neutralizes it with his darkness.
And you just proved my point.
Kizaru has to enter CQC to beat Yami Teach.
I don't see how you contradicted my post in anyway if anything you just supported it.
I am fully aware how durable Kizaru is.
I did say he wins with Mid(low) diff, didn't I?
Kizaru will feel those punches though even if they are not good enough to defeat him.
Yami Teach is just not the fodder you are trying to portray him.


----------



## Language of Life (Feb 9, 2015)

Kizaru smokes em like a joint.


----------



## SacredX (Feb 9, 2015)

Yami Teach shouldn't be much of an issue at all.  Kizaru is a powerful fighter with both close and long ranged attacks to fear.  It'd be a bad idea if he decides to use his close ranged attacks, but otherwise he takes this without much trouble.  
On a side note, it would be interesting to see if he can rely on Black Hole to absorb long ranged attacks, then Liberate the attack back at his opponent.  I don't believe he's ever used it against projectiles though.

Doflamingo is weird.  Parasite can gg anyone but there's obviously more to it than that so I'll ignore it.  Doflamingo can likely land a few good hits.  I really wish he clashed with Kuzan a bit longer, but I'm giving it to Kizaru again.

Marco's fight can go either way depending on how damaged Kizaru is.  But I don't like Marco so Kizaru wins.


----------



## Sherlōck (Feb 9, 2015)

None of them has enough DC to bring down an Admiral.

He wins it high difficulty.


----------



## Raiden34 (Feb 9, 2015)

Issho said:


> Did you miss the part where a half faced Whitebeard stomped Blackbeard?



I think you miss the part where Blackbeard resisted Haki imbued slash and quake buble into his head, and then he draw his pistol and shoot him.

Kizaru doesn't have haki imbued weapon like Whitebeard has, every DF user would get beat from Yami Teach if they are not using Haki imbued weapons like Whitebeard or Shanks using


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 9, 2015)

Amol said:


> So Kizaru uses YnK and Yami Teach just stands there?
> He neutralizes it with his darkness.


 And Kizaru's bolts are capable of massive explosions, it's too much for Blackbeard to handle.


Amol said:


> And you just proved my point.
> Kizaru has to enter CQC to beat Yami Teach.


Not really. Besides, trying to pull in Kizaru with Black Vortex or going up in CQC against him is a bad idea for Blackbeard. Ace was able to hit him with fire lances, YnM would perforate Blackbeard, and Kizaru's stats are miles above his.


Amol said:


> I am fully aware how durable Kizaru is.
> I did say he wins with Mid(low) diff, didn't I?
> Kizaru will feel those punches though even if they are not good enough to defeat him.


Stronger fighters than Blackbeard did little to the Admirals, Marco's kicks didn't do any damage, heck even Jozu was only able to give Aokiji a little bloody lip, and he has one of the best strength feats in the manga.


Amol said:


> Yami Teach is just not the fodder you are trying to portray him.


Whitebeard even with half his head gone and his DF nullified still managed to overpower Yami Blackbeard. Yami Blackbeard was indeed absolute fodder to top tiers.


Marco1907 said:


> I think you miss the part where Blackbeard resisted Haki imbued slash and quake buble into his head, and then he draw his pistol and shoot him.


That's a nice feat and all (certainly puts him above the M3 at the moment), but taking attacks from a dying Whitebeard does not mean Blackbeard would last long against fresh top tiers, his encounter with a Whitebeard on death's door proved that. If he hadn't called for his crew to come save him, things probably would have gotten uglier for Blackbeard.


Marco1907 said:


> Kizaru doesn't have haki imbued weapon like Whitebeard has, every DF user would get beat from Yami Teach if they are not using Haki imbued weapons like Whitebeard or Shanks using


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 9, 2015)

Kizaru loses.


----------



## Amol (Feb 9, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> None of them has enough DC to bring down an Admiral.
> 
> He wins it high difficulty.



He fights two strongest high tiers and fucking Yonkou FM and total diff is just high diff?
Some nice wanking going on there.


----------



## mykel23 (Feb 9, 2015)

Borsalino clears DD and Yami Teach, then loses to Marco


----------



## Sherlōck (Feb 10, 2015)

Amol said:


> He fights two strongest high tiers and fucking Yonkou FM and total diff is just high diff?
> Some nice wanking going on there.



And two high tiers has feat that will possibly make Admiral exhausted? Lets see.........none.

Sorry its not wanking just plain hard truth. Those supposed strongest high tiers you speak of are not strong enough to do anything. Kizaru has feat that will destroy them. 

And Yonko FM? Marco? Except being a human shield what the hell is he good at?

Sorry but if anyone is wanking here its you. No one else.


----------



## trance (Feb 10, 2015)

Teach was being pressured by Ace. Sure, he's decisively above Ace but the fact that he still suffered damage goes to show he needed to exert effort to defeat Ace. Kizaru is _far_ stronger than Ace, so he should defeat Teach with no trouble at all. 

Doffy gives him a slight struggle before going down. He's among the stronger New Pirates but in areas where he excels - speed and versatility - Kizaru easily outstrips him. Also, as a Logia perfectly capable of further enhancing his defense with Haki, he can probably outright ignore many of Doffy's weaker moves.

Considering his two colleagues have enough stamina to fight for ten straight days, I'd reckon Kizaru also has that level of stamina, so he shouldn't be anymore than slightly winded from fighting Doffy. So, for all intents and purposes, he's still fresh. So, he should still be capable of defeating Marco after a moderately difficult fight.


----------



## Amol (Feb 10, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> And two high tiers has feat that will possibly make Admiral exhausted? Lets see.........none.
> 
> Sorry its not wanking just plain hard truth. Those supposed strongest high tiers you speak of are not strong enough to do anything. Kizaru has feat that will destroy them.
> 
> ...



Atleast you made your bias clear.
Considering yours is the only single post according to which Kizaru beats all three of them just with high diff and most here agrees with me more and less it is quite clear who is wanking .
Or maybe except you everyone is wanking .
And I liked how you declared your fanfiction as facts without actually proving them.
It is kind of pointless to argue then.
Shame .


----------



## Amol (Feb 10, 2015)

Trance said:


> Teach was being pressured by Ace. Sure, he's decisively above Ace but the fact that he still suffered damage goes to show he needed to exert effort to defeat Ace. Kizaru is _far_ stronger than Ace, so he should defeat Teach with no trouble at all.
> 
> Doffy gives him a slight struggle before going down. He's among the stronger New Pirates but in areas where he excels - speed and versatility - Kizaru easily outstrips him. Also, as a Logia perfectly capable of further enhancing his defense with Haki, he can probably outright ignore many of Doffy's weaker moves.
> 
> Considering his two colleagues have enough stamina to fight for ten straight days, I'd reckon Kizaru also has that level of stamina, so he shouldn't be anymore than slightly winded from fighting Doffy. So, for all intents and purposes, he's still fresh. So, he should still be capable of defeating Marco after a *moderately* difficult fight.



Assuming bolded mean  Mid diff fight.
So Kizaru beats Yami Teach , Doflamingo and then mid diffs Marco .
Yami Teach and DD are fodders , right?
I mean who cares if said guy tanked attacks from bloodlusted WB and Sengoku.
Fodders can do that even if they were WSM and Fleet Admiral , right ?
Ace himself was capable of fighting for 5 days in case you have forgotten.
In any case DD is better than that .
DD even has good feats against Jozu.
But then again every single high tier is fodder for Admiral.
Mid diff sure why not .


----------



## trance (Feb 10, 2015)

Amol said:


> Assuming bolded mean  Mid diff fight.



Mid-high. I don't think Marco is far away from Kizaru but I don't think he's quite on his level



> Yami Teach and DD are fodders , right?



This incarnation of Teach isn't too much trouble for Kizaru. Even he got serious, Teach couldn't prevent Ace from damaging him. Like I said, Kizaru is far stronger than Ace, so his attacks will similarly do far more damage to Teach.



> I mean who cares if said guy tanked attacks from bloodlusted WB and Sengoku.



Akainu tanked nastier stuff than Teach but I don't think for a second that he can cleanly tank "Yasakani no Magatama" which is essentially _thousands upon thousands_ of lasers. He would literally be skewered.



> Ace himself was capable of fighting for 5 days in case you have forgotten.



Which means nothing since Borsalino is levels stronger than Ace, so he can overwhelm him long before stamina becomes an issue. Kuzan has ten days worth of stamina but I don't see that mattering if he was placed against, say Roger or prime Garp.



> But then again every single high tier is fodder for Admiral.



Not fodder per se but clearly outmatched.



> Mid diff sure why not .



You sound mad. Are you mad?


----------



## Sherlōck (Feb 10, 2015)

Amol said:


> ~snip~



So basically you couldn't come up with a counter argument & posted this retarded response. Keep it up. Unless you can give a proper response don't bother quoting.


----------



## Amol (Feb 10, 2015)

Trance said:


> Mid-high. I don't think Marco is far away from Kizaru but I don't think he's quite on his level


I could have swore that you were saying very high before this.
And you should probably read MF arc. It seems you forgot how Kizaru vs Marco went.


> This incarnation of Teach isn't too much trouble for Kizaru. Even he got serious, Teach couldn't prevent Ace from damaging him. Like I said, Kizaru is far stronger than Ace, so his attacks will similarly do far more damage to Teach.


He never got serious with Ace . He was showing off his powers .
Same thing with WB. He thought WB was dying. It wasn't lack of strength because of which got humiliated by WB.
It was due to attitude.




> Akainu tanked nastier stuff than Teach but I don't think for a second that he can cleanly tank "Yasakani no Magatama" which is essentially _thousands upon thousands_ of lasers. He would literally be skewered.


It is not like Teach has power to nullify those lasers, right?
Think is the key word.
Prove that YnK is stronger than Bloodlusted WB's quake and Sengoku's Buddha Palm .
Why Akainu being more tank matters here.Straw man much.
Point is for supposed fodder he tanked quite strong attacks .
Maybe because he is actually not a fodder?
Proof by contradiction.




> Which means nothing since Borsalino is levels stronger than Ace, so he can overwhelm him long before stamina becomes an issue. Kuzan has ten days worth of stamina but I don't see that mattering if he was placed against, say Roger or prime Garp.



No my point was 10 days stamina is nothing too extraordinary.
If Ace and Jimbei can fight for 5 days then Yami Teach and DD should go around 7/8 days .
And this is not considering Marco in equation who is a Zoan.


> Not fodder per se but clearly outmatched.


If they are not even getting mid diff together(low from individual battle) then you are clearly portraying them as fodder.
Imagine Doflamingo not being  able to give atleast low diff and the guy was talking about taking Issho down. He must be as delusional as Hody .
Shame,I thought DD is a clever character.



> You sound mad. Are you mad?


Disappointed actually.
If I was mad I would have ignored the post.


----------



## Amol (Feb 10, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> So basically you couldn't come up with a counter argument & posted this retarded response. Keep it up. Unless you can give a proper response don't bother quoting.



One would think you actually used some great arguments in first place.
Considering there was just bias in post one can't possibly provide counter arguments.
Doflamingo is fodder.
Yonkou is FM useless (just a human shield after all).
Sure there were some marvelous points you made .


----------



## trance (Feb 10, 2015)

Amol said:


> I could have swore that you were saying very high before this.



Idk. My opinions tend to change from time to time. Not drastically but yea.



> And you should probably read MF arc. It seems you forgot how Kizaru vs Marco went.



Briefly clashing on similar terms =/= being similar in strength. I stand by what I say. He's not far away from Kizaru but I wouldn't say he's on his level.



> He never got serious with Ace . He was showing off his powers .



After the first "Kurouzu", he seemed to get serious and was 



> It is not like Teach has power to nullify those lasers, right?



And Teach is just going to magically nullify _all_ of those lasers with his two hands?



> Prove that YnK is stronger than Bloodlusted WB's quake and Sengoku's Buddha Palm .



I wouldn't say that *one* quake yields greater force than _thousands upon thousands_ of destructive lasers.

Regarding Sengoku. Freaking Doc Q could survive that.



> Why Akainu being more tank matters here.Straw man much.



It's to show that despite being a better tank than Teach (based on feats), I don't think could tank a full-on assault from "Yasakani no Magatama".



> No my point was 10 days stamina is nothing too extraordinary.
> If Ace and Jimbei can fight for 5 days then Yami Teach and DD should go around 7/8 days .
> And this is not considering Marco in equation who is a Zoan.



As I said, the battle ends before stamina becomes a glaring issue. 



> If they are not even getting mid diff together(low from individual battle) then you are clearly portraying them as fodder.
> Imagine Doflamingo not being  able to give atleast low diff and the guy was talking about taking Issho down. He must be as delusional as Hody .
> Shame,I thought DD is a clever character.



Doffy clearly has instances of heavily underestimating his opponents.




> Disappointed actually.
> If I was mad I would have ignored the post.



I'm more surprised that you've been here for over a year and are _still_ surprised that someone has a radically different opinion than you.


----------



## Amol (Feb 10, 2015)

Trance said:


> Idk. My opinions tend to change from time to time. Not drastically but yea.
> 
> 
> 
> Briefly clashing on *similar* terms =/= being similar in strength. I stand by what I say. He's not far away from Kizaru but I wouldn't say he's on his level.



You just decided to ignore clear portrayal of Marco then .
Oda drew those panels for purpose.
Marco never was once in negative light against Kizaru .
Idk how you even judged their strength when you ignored their direct clash portrayal 



> I wouldn't say that *one* quake yields greater force than _thousands upon thousands_ of destructive lasers.


WB's knocked Akainu out with two punches. Concentrated Power .
Kizaru's attack looked more pretty.
We can't be sure who's attack was stronger .
I would go with WB considering his state of mind .



> Doffy clearly has instances of heavily underestimating his opponents.


There is difference in between underestimating someone and being downright delusional.
If DD by himself is not worth low diff let alone mid diff then he is delusional.



> I'm more surprised that you've been here for over a year and are _still_ surprised that someone has a radically different opinion than you.


I am surprised at you having radically different opinion than your pastself.


----------



## Coruscation (Feb 10, 2015)

You can't directly compare a vibration to the head, to literally dozens of lasers blasting holes in a person's body. Two different types of damage. Tanking Kizaru's lasers is basically impossible unless your name is Marco or perhaps Jozu. WB got pierced and it was reinforced even with the weaker Radical Beam blasting down the PH door how Kizaru's beams (reproduced by Vegapunk) can get through just about anything. Undoubtedly Blackbeard could endure a handful but getting turned into swiss cheese? He's not going to survive that.

And don't forget the quake used on Akainu was more powerful than the one used on Blackbeard. It split an island in two and Whitebeard was less injured at the time as well. So it's not as if BB took 50% of what would take out an Admiral or something.



Amol said:


> He fights two strongest high tiers and fucking Yonkou FM and total diff is just high diff?
> Some nice wanking going on there.



If Luffy had to fight Franky and Robin before fighting Sanji do you think this would result in Luffy being pushed to extreme diff by the latter? The situation is similar. Franky and Robin may be two of the strongest individuals in their own range of power but Luffy is just too much above that. Likewise Kizaru plays in a different league than Doflamingo and pre-Gura Teach.


----------



## jNdee~ (Feb 10, 2015)

Handily wins.

Yami-BB is a walking target for top tiers


----------



## Amol (Feb 10, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> You can't directly compare a vibration to the head, to literally dozens of lasers blasting holes in a person's body. Two different types of damage. Tanking Kizaru's lasers is basically impossible unless your name is Marco or perhaps Jozu. WB got pierced and it was reinforced even with the weaker Radical Beam blasting down the PH door how Kizaru's beams (reproduced by Vegapunk) can get through just about anything. Undoubtedly Blackbeard could endure a handful but getting turned into swiss cheese? He's not going to survive that.
> 
> And don't forget the quake used on Akainu was more powerful than the one used on Blackbeard. It split an island in two and Whitebeard was less injured at the time as well. So it's not as if BB took 50% of what would take out an Admiral or something.


I was going on with WB state of mind considering I still not sure who's attack was stronger.
You may right regardless.
My point was just that with combination of Darkness and his own durability he doesn't get 'fodderized'.
His defeat was always inevitable.



Coruscation said:


> If Luffy had to fight Franky and Robin before fighting Sanji do you think this would result in Luffy being pushed to extreme diff by the latter? The situation is similar. Franky and Robin may be two of the strongest individuals in their own range of power but Luffy is just too much above that. Likewise Kizaru plays in a different league than Doflamingo and pre-Gura Teach.



Luffy pretty much fodderizes those two.
I view Yami Teach and Doflamingo better than that .
It is like Luffy fighting Don Chinjao and CC before fighting with Zoro for me.
I view Marco more or less on Kizaru's level.


----------



## jNdee~ (Feb 10, 2015)

Breakdown:

BB- Yeah yeah I get it, Yami Teach almost broke Ace's neck with one karate chop, but Ace was a glass cannon and has a shitty durability compared to an Admiral. Another point, BB isn't the evading type, he relies on heavy durability but Kizaru is one of the most lethal guys around. Teach being an arrogant bitch will lead to a bad result. Bad, very bad match-up. Kizaru Low diffs.

DD- He's BB's counterpart, He works cautious and strikes as swifty fighter, but he hasn't shown enough firepower to take down an Admiral. He'd give an Admiral a strategic problem, but nothing that won't be solved by force. Kizaru mid diffs at most.

Marco- Okay, so here's the hard one. Or rather, just the long one. Marco has a defense that can withstand 95% of the attacks shown in the manga. Only top tiers are proven to have the capability to harm him. But guess what, Kiz is a top tier, capable of harming Marco, capable of beating Marco, and will beat Marco. Marco is one bad son of gun on the other side of the floor, his defense makes him competitive, but let's face it, he doesn't have an offensive firepower to dance with guys sitting atop the food chain. Monkey won't be a prey for the bird this time.


----------



## Bernkastel (Feb 10, 2015)

jNdee~ said:


> Breakdown:
> Marco- Okay, so here's the hard one. Or rather, just the long one. Marco has a defense that can withstand 95% of the attacks shown in the manga. Only top tiers are proven to have the capability to harm him. But guess what, Kiz is a top tier, capable of harming Marco, capable of beating Marco, and will beat Marco. Marco is one bad son of gun on the other side of the floor, his defense makes him competitive, but let's face it, he doesn't have an offensive firepower to dance with guys sitting atop the food chain. Monkey won't be a prey for the bird this time.



Marco brazed through one of Kizaru's strongest attack like nothing and kicked him back like a soccerball.

Sure Kizaru will beat him in a 1v1 but not straight after being pushed to low diff by Teach and mid diff by DD.


----------



## jNdee~ (Feb 10, 2015)

Oh healing is off, then this could be either way at most, but leaning with Kiz.

Best Scenarios:
BB-Cakewalk
DD-Cake-walkish
Marco-High Diff

Worst
BB-Cakewalk
DD-Mid-diff
Marco-Loses vie extreme diff, or wins vice versa.

I think the former is more legible. So, I still pick Kiz, Extreme diff.


----------



## Coruscation (Feb 10, 2015)

Amol said:


> I was going on with WB state of mind considering I still not sure who's attack was stronger.
> You may right regardless.
> My point was just that with combination of Darkness and his own durability he doesn't get 'fodderized'.
> His defeat was always inevitable.



If he decides to just tank carelessly, he would get fodderized.

If not, lower end of low-diff is still what he's likely to muster at best. He's just a horrible match-up for Kizaru anyway. A laser shower can't be endured like those flame lances of Ace's and if Ace was able to attack mid-pull, Kizaru sure as hell will. If it comes to a close range fight Kizaru is extremely strong and skilled and he'll get opportunities to use his DF power just like Ace did. The idea of Blackbeard landing a single hit on Kizaru is almost unthinkable as Kizaru is much much faster in terms of physical agility and speed and he is strong enough to block any of Teach's blows. And even if he miraculously landed a hit it's highly unlikely to do any meaningful damage at all considering the Admirals have the stats to fight for 10 days. One hit inflicting nearly no damage does not a mid diff fight make and that's the optimistic estimate.



Amol said:


> Luffy pretty much fodderizes those two.
> I view Yami Teach and Doflamingo better than that .
> It is like Luffy fighting Don Chinjao and CC before fighting with Zoro for me.
> I view Marco more or less on Kizaru's level.



Yami giving Kizaru mid diff? (assuming that is what you mean by Luffy vs. DCJ) =/ How does that fight play out in your head exactly? Seems like inventing stats for Teach he doesn't have. Ace was able to respond to Teach's attacks mid-pull, counter and deal a pretty good amount of damage before going down. Kizaru is undoubtedly far superior in all aspects of combat than the late Ace and should perform far better in all respects, including damage dealing.

As for Doflamingo, a more fair point as his true strength isn't confirmed yet, but even so what he's shown so far doesn't make his prospects good. He's displayed the ability to at least defend himself against an attack or two from an Admiral. But defending, which we don't know how well he'd be able to do against an Admiral attacking him with full power anyway, is not enough to accomplish a mid-diff fight. At least somewhat of an offensive threat has to be mustered. In terms of physical strength and Haki his punches and kicks have dealt negligible damage to Luffy. I can't imagine someone with Admiral class physical stats hitting Luffy the same way without inflicting heavy damage. As for DFs, the Admirals' are no less powerful than Doflamingo's.

Mid diff to me is Luffy vs. Croc round II or Luffy vs. DCJ. I have a really hard time envisioning DD doing that to an Admiral with the current state of his feats relative to theirs. On the very low end of it at most.


----------



## Amol (Feb 10, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> If he decides to just tank carelessly, he would get fodderized.
> 
> If not, lower end of low-diff is still what he's likely to muster at best. He's just a horrible match-up for Kizaru anyway. A laser shower can't be endured like those flame lances of Ace's and if Ace was able to attack mid-pull, Kizaru sure as hell will. If it comes to a close range fight Kizaru is extremely strong and skilled and he'll get opportunities to use his DF power just like Ace did. The idea of Blackbeard landing a single hit on Kizaru is almost unthinkable as Kizaru is much much faster in terms of physical agility and speed and he is strong enough to block any of Teach's blows. And even if he miraculously landed a hit it's highly unlikely to do any meaningful damage at all considering the Admirals have the stats to fight for 10 days. One hit inflicting nearly no damage does not a mid diff fight make and that's the optimistic estimate.
> 
> ...



I was arguing more or less same thing.
Teach atleast gets low diff (still different than fodderized ) .
He was CC from my example.
And Don Chinjao was Doflamingo .
I posted in wrong order .
Chinjao actually didn't hurt Luffy. He just made him tired.
I visualize Admiral vs DD going that way.
True we haven't seen him going all out but he gave vibe of being that strong .
He effectively beat Luffy/Law while maintaining City Wide Birdcage and multiple parasites simultaneously.
Mid Diff seems right for his hype, portrayal and feats IMO.


----------



## jNdee~ (Feb 10, 2015)

I don't think that mid diff comparison is accurate.

Kizaru has at least comparable stamina to Akainu and Kuzan. DD ain't tiring him out.


----------



## Sherlōck (Feb 10, 2015)

Amol said:


> One would think you actually used some great arguments in first place.
> Considering there was just bias in post one can't possibly provide counter arguments.
> Doflamingo is fodder.
> Yonkou is FM useless (just a human shield after all).
> Sure there were some marvelous points you made .



Oh please . You can't form a good argument even if you want to. That's why you are looking for a cop out by saying I am biased. Unfortunately I am not. I form my argument based on the feat shown on panel. You on the other hand don't.

Doflamingo is fodder? Yes he is to Admirals. Please show me stats that says otherwise.Show me his DC,durability feat that's on par with the Admirals in the lowest way possible. 

I am saying same about Yami Teach. Gura Teach had his entire crew where 4 of them are legendary pirates & he ran away putting his tail between his leg after he saw Akainu coming his way.Show me his stats equivalent to Admirals who went toe to toe with Whitebeard. 

A single laser is enough to destroy both Mingo & Teach. Neither of them showed durability enough to take half the energy of a single laser. 

Good old Marco. He turned into swiss cake after he got hit by YnK.He had a huge fucking hole in his head. Only reason he was still alive cause he has regeneration. Otherwise he would have died right there. He kicked Kizaru & Aokiji (basically a free shot) & still didn't manage to harm them even a bit. He managed to irritate Akainu. That's his single accomplishment in the entire war.


----------



## Raiden34 (Feb 10, 2015)

jNdee~ said:


> Breakdown:
> 
> BB- Yeah yeah I get it, Yami Teach almost broke Ace's neck with one karate chop, but Ace was a glass cannon and has a shitty durability compared to an Admiral.
> 
> .



What ? Ace fought against Jinbe 5 freakin days... 

Did Teach lose his consciousness ever ? Shanks considered him as a lethal threat even before Yam Yami no Mi...


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 10, 2015)

Amol said:


> He fights two strongest high tiers and fucking Yonkou FM and total diff is just high diff?
> Some nice wanking going on there.


You can reply to my last post whenever you like.


----------



## jNdee~ (Feb 10, 2015)

Marco1907 said:


> What ? Ace fought against Jinbe 5 freakin days...
> 
> Did Teach lose his consciousness ever ? Shanks considered him as a lethal threat even before Yam Yami no Mi...




Am I wrong then? Shanks considered him a threat because of his potential, same way Akainu viewed Luffy.

I don't even know what're you trying to prove


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 10, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Marco brazed through one of Kizaru's strongest attack like nothing


Yeah, because of his DF, which he was using to regenerate the damage Kizaru dealt him.


Bernkastel said:


> and kicked him back like a soccerball.


When Marco had the aerial advantage and he didn't even scratch Kizaru's suit.


----------



## Bernkastel (Feb 10, 2015)

Issho said:


> Yeah, because of his DF, which he was using to regenerate the damage Kizaru dealt him..



Doesn't change the fact that he was completely unharmed and he didn't seem the least exhausted.
Imagine how many YnK he would need to put him down.

Marco will eventually outlast him in this scenario since Kizaru isn't fresh as i believe he would need his full strength to take on Marco.



> When Marco had the aerial advantage and he didn't even scratch Kizaru's suit



Kizaru's suit is god tier anyways..not even WB cann scratch it


----------



## jNdee~ (Feb 10, 2015)

I think fresh is 85-100% good, I doubt if DD can do that much against him, not with his current feats, I mean yes, he's an offensively good high tier, but his durability is questionable at least for now.


----------



## Bernkastel (Feb 10, 2015)

jNdee~ said:


> I think fresh is 85-100% good, I doubt if DD can do that much against him, not with his current feats, I mean yes, he's an offensively good high tier, but his durability is questionable at least for now.



Imo DD should give an admiral a solid mid diff.Yami Teach would give him low diff. So i expect him to be at around at ~70% which isn't enough imo to beat Marco.Slowly but steeadily Marco will outlast him given the nature of his DF.


----------



## Sherlōck (Feb 10, 2015)

> Doesn't change the fact that he was completely unharmed



Which is completely false. He was harmed but he regenerated. There is a difference.


----------



## Ekkologix (Feb 11, 2015)

I think:

Kizaru low diffs teach

A tiny bit tired Kizaru mid diffs Doffy or high diff at max.

Marco high to extreme diffs the kinda tired Kizaru.


----------



## Bernkastel (Feb 11, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> Which is completely false. He was harmed but he regenerated. There is a difference.



He was completely unharmed after he regenerated so what's ur point?And he didn't even break a sweat doing so.

Also Kizaru used one of his strongest attacks so imagine how many of those he would need to finally bypass Marco's regenerative powers.


----------



## Sherlōck (Feb 11, 2015)

> so what's ur point



That here is a difference between what you said & what actually happened.



> Also Kizaru used one of his strongest attacks so imagine how many of those he would need to finally bypass Marco's regenerative powers.



You don't bypass regenerative power. You exhaust your opponent until he has no stamina or strength to regen.

Unless of course Haki can bypass regen power & deals damage you can't regen from..


----------



## Bernkastel (Feb 11, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> That here is a difference between what you said & what actually happened.



What i said is that he was unharmed by Kizaru's attack and that's what happened.Just cause he mananged that with regeneration doesn't matter and it's silly to keep discussing.

It's like saying Aokiji wasn't unharmed by WB's attack and he just used his logia powers.Both Aokiji and Marco used their powers and were unharmed in each scenario.




> You don't bypass regenerative power. You exhaust your opponent until he has no stamina to regen.
> 
> Unless of course Haki can bypass regen power & deals damage you can't regen from..



Yeah that's what i meant by outlast.Drain Marco's stamina in order to bypass his regen.
Haki can indeed bypass regen power but  i dont think it stops Marco from regenerating aterwards.You can always punch him consecutively and not leave him room to regenerate.


----------



## Ghost (Feb 11, 2015)

I honestly don't see Teach and Mingo tiring Kizaru enough for Marco to win. Kizaru high/extreme diffs.


----------



## TheWiggian (Feb 11, 2015)

Kizaru stomps Teach just as dying WB did.
Low mid diffs Mingo and beats Marco with an extreme Lucci vs Luffy diff.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 11, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> What i said is that he was unharmed by Kizaru's attack and that's what happened.Just cause he mananged that with regeneration doesn't matter and it's silly to keep discussing.


If Marco had to regenerate from an attack, that means he was hurt.


Bernkastel said:


> It's like saying Aokiji wasn't unharmed by WB's attack and he just used his logia powers.Both Aokiji and Marco used their powers and were unharmed in each scenario.


Not really a valid comparison. Aokiji's DF allows him to become his element and avoid damage from attacks, you could keep attacking him all day long, but if you can't bypass his Logia defense, he won't take any damage. That's not the case with Marco, he can't phase through attacks without taking damage like a Logia can, he can only heal damage dealt from attacks. And Oda has stated that his regen has a limit, so once it's up, he's screwed.


----------



## Raiden34 (Feb 11, 2015)

Do you guys know that Yami Yami's effect > Haki effect ? Kizaru can't win without getting punches from Teach, which means mid difficulty at best.


----------



## Bernkastel (Feb 11, 2015)

Issho said:


> If Marco had to regenerate from an attack, that means he was hurt.
> 
> Not really a valid comparison. Aokiji's DF allows him to become his element and avoid damage from attacks, you could keep attacking him all day long, but if you can't bypass his Logia defense, he won't take any damage. That's not the case with Marco, he can't phase through attacks without taking damage like a Logia can, he can only heal damage dealt from attacks. And Oda has stated that his regen has a limit, so once it's up, he's screwed.



So Marco can regenerate from lethal attacks?Cause i'm sure some lasers hit his head and that would have killed Marco unless he can even regenerate from fatal attacks. 

Also the only reason Marco tanked the attack was to protect WB.In a 1v1 fight he wont fly through the attack like he did back then but instead he'll try to avoid it in order to save stamina so it'll be even harder for Kizaru to outlast him.


----------



## Coruscation (Feb 11, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> Which is completely false. He was harmed but he regenerated. There is a difference.



You're on the wrong side of the semantic line buddy. He was _ultimately_ completely unharmed. That is more significant than the technicality that his being completely unharmed came about through his ability to instantly regenerate any wound he takes.


----------



## Sherlōck (Feb 11, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> You're on the wrong side of the semantic line buddy. He was _ultimately_ completely unharmed.That is more significant than the technicality that his being completely unharmed came about through his ability to instantly regenerate any wound he takes.



You can say ultimately & what not but at the end of the day he was harmed.Him regenerating after the fact & having no injury is beside the point.

Also its not a technicality rather a fact.No one is denying he *completely *regenerated from the attack.Yes I bolded completely.Doesn't mean he can't be harmed just that its going to take a lot of effort than what it would take in a traditional fight.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 11, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> So Marco can regenerate from lethal attacks?Cause i'm sure some lasers hit his head and that would have killed Marco unless he can even regenerate from fatal attacks.


From what we know, yes, he can regenerate even normally fatal wounds, 


Bernkastel said:


> Also the only reason Marco tanked the attack was to protect WB.In a 1v1 fight he wont fly through the attack like he did back then but instead he'll try to avoid it in order to save stamina so it'll be even harder for Kizaru to outlast him.


Kizaru has stats in the same league as Akainu and Aokiji, and a DF with a huge AoE and DC, while Marco just has insane regen. The battle between them is mainly one of attrition, a battle that Marco is never going to win, especially since we've seen that Admirals are capable of fighting other Admirals in ten day battles. He is at best a high diff fight for Kizaru (though lately I can see it being on the lower end of high or upper end of mid).


----------



## Coruscation (Feb 11, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> You can say ultimately & what not but at the end of the day he was harmed.Him regenerating after the fact & having no injury is beside the point.
> 
> Also its not a technicality rather a fact.No one is denying he *completely *regenerated from the attack.Yes I bolded completely.Doesn't mean he can't be harmed just that its going to take a lot of effort than what it would take in a traditional fight.



No, at the _end_ of the figurative day he wasn't. At the beginning he was. But it's more sensible to value the end more. It's a question of where you put the emphasis and make your judgment. Semantics.

He was unharmed in the first stage (taking the damage) = false.
He was unharmed in the second, last stage (coping with the damage) = true.

So it's true to say that he was unharmed, and it's also true to say that he wasn't. It depends on which part of the process you refer to. But again, it's more valuable to refer to the latter stage because that's what actually matters and what people mean when they say harm.

The word harm is used to refer to _lasting_ damage in these contexts. Not temporary damage that is shrugged off like nothing happened seconds later.


----------



## Bernkastel (Feb 11, 2015)

Issho said:


> From what we know, yes, he can regenerate even normally fatal wounds,
> 
> Kizaru has stats in the same league as Akainu and Aokiji, and a DF with a huge AoE and DC, while Marco just has insane regen. The battle between them is mainly one of attrition, a battle that Marco is never going to win, especially since we've seen that Admirals are capable of fighting other Admirals in ten day battles. He is at best a high diff fight for Kizaru (though lately I can see it being on the lower end of high or upper end of mid).



I agree that Kizaru would  win in 1v1 though with at least high diff.In this scenario though i don't see him winning but anyway let's agree to disagree


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Feb 11, 2015)

There are two ways for Kizaru to lose this:

1) He sustains too much raw damage and injury which prevents him from continuing. 

2) He becomes too physically exhausted and fatigued to continue. 

Both seem highly unlikely situations here. 

First of all, the trio don't appear to have the requisite firepower between them to make scenario 1 a viable prospect. Even the supposed strongest of the group, Marco is well known on here for his piss poor offence. 

Scenario 2 may be a tad less unrealistic but considering that a fellow Admiral has been shown to be capable of lasting ten days against a much superior opponent than any of these clowns here are, yet again this becomes a very difficult scenario to envisage. 

Kizaru takes this high difficulty. 

In order:

vs Yami Teach - low difficulty. Can't see this last more than a few minutes if Kizaru actually becomes serious. 

vs Doflamingo - medium difficulty. Has a reasonable amount of hax for Kizaru to deal with and shown a capability to at least defend himself from a basic Admiral attack. 

vs Marco - high difficulty. Would be mid were it not for not Kizaru's past two battles. As Tea rightly says this becomes a battle of attrition with Kizaru simply waiting for Marco's regen to run out.


----------



## Captain Altintop (Feb 11, 2015)

Admiral Kizaru Sir, I feel your awesome presence here. But you will never beat Marco with just mid diff if you are totally fresh.


----------



## Quipchaque (Feb 11, 2015)

Captain Altintop said:


> Admiral Kizaru Sir, I feel your awesome presence here. But you will never beat Marco with just mid diff if you are totally fresh.



My thought exactly. Marco is a kicker and far superior to Sanji - even in this aspect- which gets clear when comparing their power behind the kicks and we all know how freakin insane dat Sanji kicks are.. so everyone please stop underrating his offensive power. I?ve never seen anyone worth a damn take serious damage from one kick and that?s literally all what Kizaru and Aokiji took from Marco. Yet for some reason that?s representive for his offensive power. Wtf is all I can say. Arlong took multiple punches, kicks and headbutts right at the beginning of his fight with Luffy... you gonna tell me Luffy got no offensive power now? 

 Besides as seen vs Akainu Marco can attack with claws which btw he didn?t even utilize against the other admirals so it?s not surprising they wouldn?t take damage... . Then there is his initial portrayal at the beginning of Marineford. There is something seriously wrong with you guys if you take from a portrayal of 2 guys basically mirroring each other by saying "that hurt!" and giving a response of "don?t lie!" (after taking insane attacks head on) yet neither of them being harmed as "one of them must be superior by far!" This is meant to be viewed as equality and nothing else. I?ve never seen any forum downplay the first mate of Whitebeard with such passion while ignoring every ounce of common sense.

And don?t forget that Marco is going to face off against Yonko Blackbeard near eos and I can guarantee that this isn?t going to be one sided. Oda never handled plot-relevant battles like this, this is going all the way to extreme diff so certainly we can hold high expectations for Marco and his supposedly weak stats otherwise there is no way Oda could deliver.


----------



## Bernkastel (Feb 11, 2015)

Mid diff...


----------



## Canute87 (Feb 11, 2015)

Captain Altintop said:


> Admiral Kizaru Sir, I feel your awesome presence here. But you will never beat Marco with just mid diff if you are totally fresh.



If Marco had Josu's raw power I'd be more concerned but Kizaru can take him.

The difficulty lies more within the time than the effort.

There's no way Kizaru can beat Marco in a timely manner. But seeing two admirals were capable of a true top class battle for ten days  Kizaru is quite fine.


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (Feb 11, 2015)

What Oda didn't tell you was that the 10 days included time for breaks/eating/shitting/fapping/etc

Actual combat time was probably closer to 10 hours


----------



## barreltheif (Feb 11, 2015)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> What Oda didn't tell you was that the 10 days included time for breaks/eating/shitting/fapping/etc
> 
> Actual combat time was probably closer to 10 hours




Wow, that's really interesting, I didn't realize that, thanks Oda.





Admiral Kizaru said:


> There are two ways for Kizaru to lose this:
> 1) He sustains too much raw damage and injury which prevents him from continuing.
> 2) He becomes too physically exhausted and fatigued to continue.
> Both seem highly unlikely situations here.
> ...




I almost completely agree with this.


----------



## Tenma (Feb 11, 2015)

If Kizaru can mid diff Marco then the likes of WB/Shanks/Akainu should be able to low diff him. Which is kinda ridiculous.

Sure, he hasn't proven as offensively lethal as the C3 but neither has Fujitora and I don't see people here saying Kizaru can mid diff him.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 11, 2015)

Tenma said:


> If Kizaru can mid diff Marco then the likes of WB/Shanks/Akainu should be able to low diff him. Which is kinda ridiculous.
> 
> *Sure, he hasn't proven as offensively lethal as the C3 but neither has Fujitora* and I don't see people here saying Kizaru can mid diff him.





> *but neither has Fujitora*





> *but neither has Fujitora*



   .


----------



## Tenma (Feb 11, 2015)

Zoro shrugged off his gravity attack.

Law blocked the meteor.

Sabo shrugged off Ferocious Tiger.

Akainu and Aokiji basically mortally wounded everything they touched.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 11, 2015)

Tenma said:


> Zoro shrugged off his gravity attack.
> 
> Law blocked the meteor.
> 
> ...



1. Zoro didn't shrug it off at all. He immediately grimaced and wondered "How this guy could be generating so much force!?". He then got put into a pit, and impressively escaped that pit; bleeding and panting, and compltely docile.

2. Law's cuts ignore Durability, so he has the perfect fruit to face it. It doesn't matter how strong or overwhelming something is, as long as it fits in Law's room and he can react to it, he can take care of it. Law would do the same to a giant Ice or Magma projectile he could react to. 

3. No Sabo clearly relied on his logia ability there.

4.  Luffy, Sanji, and Zoro all got* frozen by Aokiji* and were fine. Jinbei *ate a direct Magma fist from Akainu*, all of the Supernovas *survived direct light attacks from Kizaru*. One horizontal swipe from Fujitora had someone like Sabo relying on Logia intangibility. Casual Fujitora had the SH's creaming their pants, earned the description of merciless via Doflamingo (for casually throwing meteors at Law), and even made Sabo wtf with his near Pica sized meteors.


----------



## Tenma (Feb 11, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> 1. Zoro didn't shrug it off at all. He immediately grimaced and wondered "How this guy could be generating so much force!?". He then got put into a pit, and impressively escaped that pit; bleeding and panting, and compltely docile.
> 
> 2. Law's cuts ignore Durability, so he has the perfect fruit to face it. It doesn't matter how strong or overwhelming something is, as long as it fits in Law's room and he can react to it, he can take care of it. Law would do the same to a giant Ice or Magma projectile he could react to.
> 
> ...



1. Shrugged off may have been a poor choice of words, but it remains that Zoro took minor injuries and was at 100% soon after. Against a much stronger opponent like Doflamingo or Jozu the gravity attack wouldn't do much.
2. Granted. It doesn't seem like that powerful a technique though given Doflamingo's strings seemed to be their superior.
3. Which means it failed to make Sabo tangible.
4. You will be fine if Aokjji freezes you unless he exerts/breaks the frozen portion. He obviously didn't bother with the SHs. If not for Law's medical attention, Jinbe would probably have died from having a fucking hole in his chest. Kizaru's kicks aren't that lethal, but his 'pierce everything' lasers are.

There's a difference between power and lethality. Fuji is as powerful as C3 but his attacks haven't proven as lethal as theirs. Marco was shown to be the physical superior to Kizaru and matched Akainu in strength. He's obviously in their league even if he can't beat them.


----------



## Gohara (Feb 11, 2015)

Aside from what Coruscation and some others have said, Marco intentionally takes some blows knowing that he can regenerate from them.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Feb 12, 2015)

Tenma said:


> If Kizaru can mid diff Marco then the likes of WB/Shanks/Akainu should be able to low diff him. Which is kinda ridiculous.



No!!

It doesn't work like that. 

First of all, there is little gap between WB/Shanks/Sakazuki and Borsalino as it and especially not enough to warrant such a reduction in difficulty when facing Marco.

Second, even if there was such a gap, it's not some nice linear graph where you look up a character's perceived strength and use that to determine the difficulty they'll have against a similar opponent.

What you need you need to look at is specific opponents and what qualities they bring to the table against a character. Marco brings a world class defence but not much else and is especially noted to have a weak offence. Kizaru and the certifiable top tiers you've all listed are all generally more well rounded and possess monstrous stats across the board with no real specific area of weakness noted among any of them. And in particular they all have impressive attacking power. 

Each one of them is going to have whatever attacks they throw at Marco be ineffective for a long time whilst Marco's regeneration is active; that's something that's not going to change regardless of the opponent Marco faces. 


tl;dr - Given the nature of Marco's abilities, in particular his impressive regeneration qualities he's not going to be low diff'd by anyone however he equally won't be capable of pushing any Admiral/Yonkou/Mihawk etc to high difficulty because of his poor offensive threat. 




Tenma said:


> Sure, he hasn't proven as offensively lethal as the C3 but neither has Fujitora and I don't see people here saying Kizaru can mid diff him.



That's just patently wrong. See Dr White's excellent rebuttal on the matter though; can't be bothered copying him.


----------



## Amol (Feb 12, 2015)

Issho said:


> You can reply to my last post whenever you like.



Just saw it.
Just tell me result of Kizaru vs DD and Kizaru vs Marco in two separate fights.
If you gonna tell me that DD is a 'fodder' and Kizaru can 'mid' diff Yonkou FM despite their encounter in MF saying otherwise then we really have nothing to discuss.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 12, 2015)

Amol said:


> Just saw it.
> Just tell me result of Kizaru vs DD and Kizaru vs Marco in two separate fights.


We weren't discussing Doflamingo or Marco. We were debating about whether or not Yami Blackbeard is complete trash before a top tier. Guess what? He was, as proven when Whitebeard on his deathbed still managed to destroy Blackbeard.


----------



## Amol (Feb 12, 2015)

Issho said:


> We weren't discussing Doflamingo or Marco. We were debating about whether or not Yami Blackbeard is complete trash before a top tier. Guess what? He was, as proven when Whitebeard on his deathbed still managed to destroy Blackbeard.



And I already explained that he got humiliated because of	his attitude.
He underestimated WB because he thought WB was dying .
He got 'Enel complex' on that moment.
Thinking that,he is invisible because of his DF.
You have to consider these things while evaluating his strength.
He has no reason to underestimate a Fresh Admiral.
All I am saying that Kizaru is not lolfodderizing him as you are implying.
Someone who can tank attack from Bloodlusted WB and Sengoku is not a fodder otherwise we need to change defination of fodder.
He is at the very least getting a low diff fight .
Unless low diff fight means trash to you.


----------



## DavyChan (Feb 12, 2015)

wow this is a boring thread. im so fcking tired of u aholes just answering the ones with the admirals are the crazy strong characters. No matter how god aweful they are.

OFC Kizaru wins. *#wtf #nobrainrequired #uhdoy*


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 12, 2015)

Amol said:


> And I already explained that he got humiliated because of	his attitude.
> He underestimated WB because he thought WB was dying .


He may have underestimated Whitebeard but that does not mean he wasn't outclassed. Even after getting his DF nullified, Whitebeard still managed to overpower Blackbeard, and Blackbeard chose to call for his crew to come save him. In other words, Yami Blackbeard very easily gets destroyed by any Admiral or Emperor.


Amol said:


> All I am saying that Kizaru is not lolfodderizing him as you are implying.
> Someone who can tank attack from Bloodlusted WB and Sengoku is not a fodder otherwise we need to change defination of fodder.
> He is at the very least getting a low diff fight .
> Unless low diff fight means trash to you.


Blackbeard took *one* bisento slash, *one* quake (which was not as powerful as the Island Splitter), and *one* shockwave. That does NOT mean he can survive a move like YnM, which consists of *hundreds* of lasers each capable of a massive explosion.


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Feb 12, 2015)

Issho said:


> He may have underestimated Whitebeard but that does not mean he wasn't outclassed. Even after getting his DF nullified, Whitebeard still managed to overpower Blackbeard, and Blackbeard chose to call for his crew to come save him. In other words, Yami Blackbeard very easily gets destroyed by any Admiral or Emperor.
> 
> Blackbeard took *one* bisento slash, *one* quake (which was not as powerful as the Island Splitter), and *one* shockwave. That does NOT mean he can survive a move like YnM, which consists of *hundreds* of lasers each capable of a massive explosion.



Uh, I think you're overreacting when you say that each individual lasers of Kizaru's Yasakana no Maganama are capable of massive explosions. Whilst I do agree that Blackbeard won't be unscathed from Kizaru's Yasakana no magatama if hit, unless of course he creates a gigantic and wide wall of darkness from his Yami Yami no mi ability in front of him to absorb the miniature beam of lights as they're coming towards Blackbeard, each single laser beams that Kizaru's Yasakana No Magatama consist of do not and cannot create 'massive' explosions. The level of power his lasers cause are dependent on whether he concentrates on the laser's power or not.


----------



## jNdee~ (Feb 12, 2015)

He ain't fodder, but he ain't hittin Kizaru either. So he's as good as fodder. He might pack one hell of a punch, but how is he going to connect? His opponent is swift, his opponent has an high end long range attack.


----------



## Raiden34 (Feb 12, 2015)

Whitebeard has Haki imbued Bisento, Admirals does not have, more importantly Teach wasn't expecting that attack and he was too confident to beat him, still he didn't lose his consciousness and draw his pistol even after quake bubble right into his head... That quick black hole + kurouzu combination could work on any admiral even Akainu...


----------



## trance (Feb 13, 2015)

Marco1907 said:


> Whitebeard has Haki imbued Bisento, Admirals does not have, more importantly Teach wasn't expecting that attack and he was too confident to beat him, still he didn't lose his consciousness and draw his pistol even after quake bubble right into his head... That quick black hole + kurouzu combination could work on any admiral even Akainu...



Teach draws Akainu in, who then promptly stamps his fist through Teach's stomach. Plus, Akainu was directly at the epicenter of an shockwave that split the entirety of MarineFord in half. Just before that, a quake + Haki-imbued ambush only inflicted superficial damage to him. Basic punches from this version of Teach aren't gonna do more than tickle Akainu.


----------

