# Prime Hiruzen Vs Tobirama



## Idiopodivny (Dec 7, 2015)

*Location*: Sannin Battlefield 
*Distance*: 20 Meters 
*Conditions*: Kill To Win 
*State of Mind*: In Character 
*Knowledge*: None
*Restrictions*: No Prep

Hiruzen Feats: 
-Knows and can use all of Leaf Village jutsu except for Kekkai Genkai and Secret Clan Technique
- Can use and Mastered the 5 basic nature transformations & Ying-Yang 
-Fought off Nine Tails 
- Could counterbalance any nature release 
- Large Chakra Reserves
-Strong Will
- He was regarded as the strongest Hokage in Konoha's history, and the most powerful of the Five Kage during his life.
- Is a sensor type ninja and can sense people by their chakra, (like how he found Tobirama & Hashirama in the darkness jutsu) 
- Shiruken Shadow Clone Technique
- Enma Summon and Unbreakable Adamantine Sword
- Can manipulate objects around him like Shirukens (Roof Tile Shiruken) 
- Unbreakable Adamantine Prison defense 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Tobirama Feats:
- Defeated Izuna 
- Survived a battle with the Gold & Silver Brothers
- Said to fastest shinobi during his lifetime
- Large Chakra Reserves
- Strong Will 
-  Could Perform Complex techniques with just one hand seal
- Wielded and Mastered The Sword Of The Thunder God
- Created and Masterd Shadow Clone Tecnique 
- Gifted Sensor Type 
- Tobirama was able to use all five basic nature transformations, along with Yin and Yang Release
- Mastered Water Release 
- Created & Mastered Flying Thunder God Technique 
- Bringer Of Darkness Technique 


In conclusion both have some pretty strong feats, but Kishimoto has only displayed Tobirama im his prime and not Hiruzen, so although the hype for Hiruzen may be crazy, we have to give the benefit of the doubt because those were Kishimoto's words in the manga that said he was "a god of shinobi" a title that he only shares with Hagoromo and Hashirama. Also, all of the jutsu that Tobirama had were probably taught to Hiruzen, he was his student after all. And Hiruzen knew all of the justu that were created in the leaf.


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## Trojan (Dec 7, 2015)

He has a huge power even compared to the other Hokage 



Can use more than 1000 Genjutsu




He is the professor who can use all of Konoha's jutsu
Konoha's jutsu

*Spoiler*: _تقنيات القرية_ 



Hiruzen knows all Hidden Leaf Jutsu which equals = 
Hiruzen (sarutobi clan)
Fire Release: Ash Pile Burning
Fire Release: Great Flame Technique
Dead Demon Consuming Seal
Earth Release Shadow Clone
Earth Release: Double Suicide Decapitation Technique
Earth Release: Earth Dragon Bullet
Earth Release: Earth Flow River
Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall
Fire Release: Fire Dragon Bullet
Fire Release: Fire Dragon Flame Bullet
Roof Tile Shuriken
Shadow Clone Technique
Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique
Summoning Technique (Monkey King: Enma)
Telescope Technique


Hiruzen w/ Enma
Beast Human Clone
Dynamic Marking
Fang Passing Fang
Fang Rotating Fang (Manga only) - Capable of crushing stone
Fang Wolf Fang - The power is great enough to dent a Rashōmon gate
Four Legs Technique
Human Beast Combination Transformation: Double-Headed Wolf
Passing Fang


Aburame Clan
Secret Technique: Insect Gathering
Insect Clone Technique
Human Cocoon Technique
Insect Jamming Technique
Insect Jar Technique
Parasitic Destruction Insect Technique
Secret Technique: Insect Cocoon
Secret Technique: Insect Sphere
Secret Technique: Insect Tornado
Spindle Formation

Akimichi clan
Butterfly Bullet Bombing
Calorie Control
Double Human Bullet Tank
Human Bullet Tank
Multi-Size Technique
Partial Multi-Size Technique
Spiked Human Bullet Tank
Super Multi-Size Technique
Super Open Hand Slap

Nara clan
Black Spider Lily
Shadow Gathering Technique
Shadow Imitation Shuriken Technique
Shadow Imitation Technique
Shadow Sewing Technique
Shadow–Neck Binding Technique

Yamanaka Clan
Mind Body Disturbance Technique
Mind Body Switch Technique
Mind Clone Switch Technique
Mind Disturbance Dance Performance Technique (Anime only)
Mind Puppet Switch Cursed Seal Technique
Yamanaka Clan Telepathy

Uchiha Clan
Fire Release: Dragon Flame Release Song Technique
Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique
Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Fire Technique
Fire Release: Phoenix Sage Flower Nail Crimson
Manipulating Windmill Triple Blades
Uchiha Flame Battle Encampment

Other Hidden Leaf Tech
Water Clone Technique
Water Release: Water Colliding Wave (Anime only)
Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique
Water Release: Water Encampment Wall
Water Release: Water Trumpet
Chidori
Demonic Illusion: Hell Viewing Technique
Earth Release: Double Suicide Decapitation Technique
Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall
Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole Technique
Earth Release: Multiple Earth-Style Wall (Anime only)
Eight Gates
Evil Sealing Method
Eye Mind Reading 
Front Lotus 
Lightning Beast Running Technique
Lightning Cutter
Lightning Release Shadow Clone
Lightning Transmission (Manga only)
Lion Combo
Multiple Shadow Clone Technique
One Thousand Years of Death
Rasengan
Shadow Clone Technique
Shadow Imitation Technique
Eight Trigrams Mountain Crusher
Eight Trigrams One Hundred Twenty-Eight Palms
Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven
Eight Trigrams Sixty-Four Palms
Eight Trigrams Thirty-Two Palms
Eight Trigrams Vacuum Palm
Eight Trigrams Vacuum Wall Palm
Hyūga Main Family's Juinjutsu
Palm Bottom
Protection of the Eight Trigrams Sixty-Four Palms
Water Needle
Shadow of the Dancing Leaf
Silent Killing
Summoning: Earth Release: Tracking Fang Technique
Wind Release: Great Breakthrough 
+ Neutalizer technique, Ghost Transformation, Bringer of Darkness and all 8 Gates at will. 







He could have killed Oro had he been younger 



full score in nin/tai/gen/handseals/inttel  





the strongest of the 5 Kages


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## Hyugadoobadoo (Dec 7, 2015)

Hiruzen in prime stomps this hard. Hiruzen in prime, unfortunately makes a bad battle person cause we have very few to no feats and just some hype. But the hype is INTENSE. And if even half of it's true in his prime he would have been a massive threat to madara in the war arc.


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## Mercurial (Dec 7, 2015)

Tobirama trolls and shitblitzes with Hiraishin.


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## Shanal (Dec 7, 2015)

Given Hiruzen's hype, he shitstomps Tobirama.

Given feats, it's other way around.


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## wooly Eullerex (Dec 7, 2015)

hiruzen wins by feats.

it'll be a difficult fight because sui'ton is such a good element & lacks tactical weakness vs do'ton, a defensive element.
clones will be a wash & ftg is nullified by superior tool usage.

tobirama will be forced into a loss in CQC w/ hiruzen & enma


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## Ghost (Dec 7, 2015)

Tobirama speed blitz one shots.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 7, 2015)

Prime Hiruzen is a creation of this board. Hiruzen prime is old Hiruzen with more chakra and speed. However, his speed won't help him against Tobirama and more chakra won't help either. 

Prime Hiruzen can't use all the jutsus in Konoha. He can use all five elements but so can Tobirama. He gets tagged and dies a miserable death


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 7, 2015)

Its really hard to make an argument with feats in favor of Hiruzen, even if we grant him better speed and stamina. 
I mean I don't see base Gai defeating Tobirama with Hiruzen's arsenal, and there is no need to assume Hiruzen was physicaly as powerful as Gai in the first place.


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## savior2005 (Dec 7, 2015)

hiruzen's pathetic feats cause him to get stomped. Factor in hype, and he stomps.


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## Idiopodivny (Dec 7, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> Prime Hiruzen is a creation of this board. Hiruzen prime is old Hiruzen with more chakra and speed. However, his speed won't help him against Tobirama and more chakra won't help either.
> 
> Prime Hiruzen can't use all the jutsus in Konoha. He can use all five elements but so can Tobirama. He gets tagged and dies a miserable death



Tobirama can use all five elements, but he hasn't MASTERED them all. He only mastered Water. Why do you think that's the only element we see him using. 

And Yes Prime Hiruzen can use all Konoha jusu, it was stated by Orochimaru and several others. He wasn't called the  professor for nothing chump.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its really hard to make an argument with feats in favor of Hiruzen, even if we grant him better speed and stamina.
> I mean I don't see base Gai defeating Tobirama with Hiruzen's arsenal, and there is no need to assume Hiruzen was physicaly as powerful as Gai in the first place.




I don't get your point.



Ghost said:


> Tobirama speed blitz one shots.



SPEED isn't everything. many slower characters have defeated blitz characters. and btw Kabuto said he was stronger than the other kage during his reign as hokage which means he could have beaten Third Raikage and Onoki .......so yeah.

you guys don't seem to understand there are many leaf village secret  jutsus we probably don't even know about. Hiruzen had many scrolls and hiden techniques in his arsenal that we have yet to see because we haven't seen hiruzen in his prime. There are certain jutsus that can probably stop a speed blitzer.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its really hard to make an argument with feats in favor of Hiruzen, even if we grant him better speed and stamina.
> I mean I don't see base Gai defeating Tobirama with Hiruzen's arsenal, and there is no need to assume Hiruzen was physicaly as powerful as Gai in the first place.



were not just giving him stamina and speed in prime, 

its Chakra Reserve, Speed, Stamina, Mobility, Access to chakra consuming jutsu.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 7, 2015)

Idiopodivny said:


> Tobirama can use all five elements, but he hasn't MASTERED them all. He only mastered Water. Why do you think that's the only element we see him using.
> 
> And Yes Prime Hiruzen can use all Konoha jusu, it was stated by Orochimaru and several others. He wasn't called the  professor for nothing chump.



1. I won't waste time arguing with you re: affinities. All those elemental attacks are useless against hiraishin anyways
2. Many things are stated in the manga and retconned later. Even you acknowledge that much. You state that he can't use blood limits. The manga never said that, you do because you know there is a limit to that statement. However, you forget to take into account hijutsu. Can Hiruzen open all 8 gates? We have seen his body and he does not have bugs covering him, therefore he can't use some bug based hijutsu. He is a skinny man without calories to burn, therefore he can't use Choji's hijutsus. He does not have a contract with toads, slugs and snakes, therefore he can't use any of the sannin kuchiyose based jutsus. He cannot use hiraishin, which both his master and Minato could use. The list is long



Idiopodivny said:


> SPEED isn't everything. many slower characters have defeated blitz characters. and btw Kabuto said he was stronger than the other kage during his reign as hokage which means he could have beaten Third Raikage and Onoki .......so yeah.



To be able to beat a faster character, you need a certain advantage. Hiruzen has none



Idiopodivny said:


> you guys don't seem to understand there are many leaf village secret  jutsus we probably don't even know about. Hiruzen had many scrolls and hiden techniques in his arsenal that we have yet to see because we haven't seen hiruzen in his prime. There are certain jutsus that can probably stop a speed blitzer.



We have seen him in his prime when the kyuubi attacked. He had the help of the entire village and could not defeat the kyuubi. He was waiting for Minato just like the rest of the village fodder shinobis. 



Idiopodivny said:


> were not just giving him stamina and speed in prime,
> 
> its Chakra Reserve, Speed, Stamina, Mobility, Access to chakra consuming jutsu.



If Hiruzen had been a chakra beast, he would have still been a chakra beast in his old age. He was approximately the same age as Jiraiya when the kyuubi attacked the leat. Go back and re-read that fight. Hiruzen was shown out of breath after a short while. Jiraiya at that age could still use sage mode. 

So, the only thing really we can give him so speed. However, his speed won't help him against hiraishin


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 7, 2015)

In this case, the pupil did not surpass the master. 

Tobirama mid-diff if we're talking about Edo Feats Hirzuen.

Tobirama low-diff if we're talking about Part 1 Feats Old Hiruzen.

Speed gap is too immense.


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## Idiopodivny (Dec 7, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. I won't waste time arguing with you re: affinities. All those elemental attacks are useless against hiraishin anyways
> 2. Many things are stated in the manga and retconned later. Even you acknowledge that much. You state that he can't use blood limits. The manga never said that, you do because you know there is a limit to that statement. However, you forget to take into account hijutsu. Can Hiruzen open all 8 gates? We have seen his body and he does not have bugs covering him, therefore he can't use some bug based hijutsu. He is a skinny man without calories to burn, therefore he can't use Choji's hijutsus. He does not have a contract with toads, slugs and snakes, therefore he can't use any of the sannin kuchiyose based jutsus. He cannot use hiraishin, which both his master and Minato could use. The list is long
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not arguing, just trying to come to a conclusion. Ok Orochimaru Vs Hiruzen. Oro had the help of Edo Tensei. Orochimaru would be dead if Hiruzen didnt have to sacrifice his own life and drain his chakra from using Reaper death seal to seal the edo 1st and 2nd. Even orochimaru said if he was 10 years younger he would have lost. Even with Both Edo Tensei Hashirama and Tobirama. I also specifically said he cant use Secret Clan Techniques & Kekkai Genkai. That doesent mean he cant use hiraishin. This was never proved.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 7, 2015)

Idiopodivny said:


> I'm not arguing, just trying to come to a conclusion. Ok Orochimaru Vs Hiruzen. Hiruzen had the help of Edo Tensei. Orochimaru would be dead if Hiruzen didnt have to sacrifice his own life and drain his chakra from using Reaper death seal. Even orochimaru said if he was 10 years younger he would have lost. Even with Both Edo Tensei Hashirama and Tobirama. I also specifically said he cant use Secret Clan Techniques & Kekkai Genkai. That doesent mean he cant use hiraishin. This was never proved.



1. Once you remove, kekkei genkai, hijutsus, edo tensei, hiraishin and 8 gates, all the other Konoha jutsus are useless against a kage level ninja. 
2. If he could use hiraishin (1) Minato would have included him on the list of people who could use space-time ninjutsu when he fought Tobi and (2) he would have used it during the jyuubi battle.


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 7, 2015)

Tobirama neg difs Hiruzen after what we have seen in the manga


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 7, 2015)

I think Tobirama is faster than Prime Hiruzen overall seeing as how Tobirama's reflexes were displayed to be superior to KCM Minato's.


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## Mithos (Dec 7, 2015)

Databook 4 implies that Hiruzen was stronger than Tobirama. 

Turrin's translation: 



> So Hiruzen may not be the strongest Hokage, but he's still godly as hell, from his entry.
> 
> 
> Hiruzen earned the title of professor for being a researcher. He was trained by both Hashirama and Tobirama, as the man that would succeed them. *At a young age he showed greater talent than Tobirama*. All five nature alterations, Hidden (I think it means Clan based techniques), Genjutsu, all ninjutsu existing in Konoha which explains his reputation as the professor. Hence the essence of Hiruzen is his talent with ninjutsu. Everyone in the village is his family member
> ...



When they were being chased by the Kinkaku force, Hiruzen volunteered as the decoy and said he was the "best of all of us." Whether or not he was telling the truth is uncertain, but no one contradicted him on that point, and given his other hype it makes sense [1]

And Tobirama, who always seems to put the village first, decided that it was better that he die and Hiruzen become Hokage. 

The manga seems pretty clear that Hiruzen > Tobirama - it just hasn't been shown on panel.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 7, 2015)

Idiopodivny said:


> Until you have another source of evidence that disputes Kabutos claim, my point still stands. Hiruzen was stronger than the other Kage while he was alive which means he would have defeated Onoki, Third Raikage, Third Kazekage, and Yagura 1 on 1. Onoki has dust release and Third Raikage has speed so if he was stronger than them at age 69, image how strong he was in his prime.



 Okay.

 Tobirama would personally defeat either of them 1 on 1 as well.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 8, 2015)

Well, according to hype, prime Hiruzen most likely wins, but if we count only their feats, then, well, Hiruzen doesnt stand a chance, period. 

Tobirama's Shunshin, although slower than Minato's Shunshin, was faster than KCM Minato's movement speed, seeing how Tobirama's clone touched Gudoudama before KCM Minato could do that.

Tobirama's physical movement speed was so immense that he managed to mark Juubito when he attacked him. He reacted to Juubito's physical speed and Shunshin, marking him with the hand which was erased later. Even KCM Minato was unable of something like that.

Yeah, by the way, talking about hype - Tobirama was hyped to be the fastest shinobi of his time - Hashirama's and Madara's time. 

His physical speed and Shunshin speed, judging from feats, is on a copletely different level. As far as feats goes, Tobirama speedblitz prime Hiruzen ultra-low diff.


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## Idiopodivny (Dec 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> The idiocy.
> 
> slower than base Minato, but better than Minato with KCM. lol
> 
> ...



Lets not forget Hiruzen can use Monkey King Enma and his staff which can moves on it own.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 10, 2015)

Idiopodivny said:


> Lets not forget Hiruzen can use Monkey King Enma and his staff which can moves on it own.



And yet you are forgetting that Tobirama was the fastest man of his era, faster than Madara and Hashirama. Enma speed is not all that


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 10, 2015)

Databook states Hiruzen is stronger , NF says he isn't whats new 

Hashirama>Minato>Hiruzen>Tobirama is pretty much a done deal at this point


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## Senjuclan (Dec 10, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> Databook states Hiruzen is stronger , NF says he isn't whats new
> 
> Hashirama>Minato>Hiruzen>Tobirama is pretty much a done deal at this point



Show me where the databook says Hiruzen is STRONGER.


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## Idiopodivny (Dec 10, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> Show me where the databook says Hiruzen is STRONGER.





Eliyua23 said:


> Databook states Hiruzen is stronger , NF says he isn't whats new
> 
> Hashirama>Minato>Hiruzen>Tobirama is pretty much a done deal at this point



The fourth databook says Hiruzen surpassed Tobirama. I keep telling people speed isnt everything. Hiruzen knew genjutsu so he could trap Tobirama. There are ways to counter speed. (Traps, Illusions, Defense, etc)


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## ~M~ (Dec 10, 2015)

Hiruzen was a real ninja. He'd use clones illusions and substitutions. Ain't no blitzing him.


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## Jack The Drought (Dec 10, 2015)

Tobirama is possibly the weakest Hokage. I'll be honest I don't see him beating a Sannin. Tobirama is like Hanzo. He never lived up to his hype. Also, Hiruzen probably has everything Tobirama has bar Hiraishin.



> Monkey King Enma's transformation technique, which is characterised by the hardness of diamond and its at-will ability to extend and/or expand the Adamantine Staff, is the Hiruzen Sarutobi's weapon of choice. This staff, when in use, was able to effortlessly destroy the wooden structures created by Hashirama, a Wood Release user, *and also to overwhelm Kurama, sending him to the borders of Konoha*, and destroying the branches of the Ten-Tails' tree form.



Adamantine Staff will finish Tobirama. Unless Tobirama is a better tank than 100% Kyuubi. Because at the end of the day even Tobirama can only dodge for so long.


Idiopodivny said:


> The fourth databook says Hiruzen surpassed Tobirama. I keep telling people *speed isnt everything*. Hiruzen knew genjutsu so he could trap Tobirama. There are ways to counter speed. (Traps, Illusions, Defense, etc)


Thank you. If people realised that then Raikage wouldn't be so overrated.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 10, 2015)

Idiopodivny said:


> The fourth databook says Hiruzen surpassed Tobirama. I keep telling people speed isnt everything. Hiruzen knew genjutsu so he could trap Tobirama. There are ways to counter speed. (Traps, Illusions, Defense, etc)



The databook says no such thing. It says that he had more TALENT than Tobirama. That, however, means nothing. Sakura had more talent than young Naruto but she was never stronger than him

Knowing genjutsu means nothing. Izuna had the sharingan. Heck, he had the mangekyou sharingan. Tobirama still killed him



Jack The Drought said:


> Tobirama is possibly the weakest Hokage. I'll be honest I don't see him beating a Sannin. Tobirama is like Hanzo. He never lived up to his hype. Also, Hiruzen probably has everything Tobirama has bar Hiraishin.



1. Stupid to say that Tobirama can't beat a sannin. Which sannin can kill someone with the MS? MAYBE Jiraiya? Yet, one one one, Tobirama would destroy Jiraiya
2. Hiruzen does not have all of Tobirama's jutsus. Can he use edo tensei? Is a sensor? Does he know medical ninjutsu? 




Jack The Drought said:


> Adamantine Staff will finish Tobirama. Unless Tobirama is a better tank than 100% Kyuubi. Because at the end of the day even Tobirama can only dodge for so long.
> 
> Thank you. If people realised that then Raikage wouldn't be so overrated.



To finish Tobirama you have to actually hit him. Hiruzen can't do that. Tobirama is faster than him. If he engages in CQC, he will be tagged with hiraishin and Hiruzen will kill him with hiraishin giri.

Oh and show me where in the manga, monkey king Enma sent kyuubi to the border of Konoha. Which page showed that



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Hiruzen was also able to decipher the composition of Juubito's attack right away, something that no one else did. So it's likely that Hiruzen's intellect/strategy > Tobirama's.



False. Hiruzen actually speculated that the attack was like Oonoki and that Tobi could not hold it indefinitely. He was wrong on both counts. Tobirama actually was the only one who deciphered that the attacks were yin-yang. He was the only one who also found out how to defeat the yin-yang defense (besides Naruto). So, Tobirama's intelect / strategy > Hiruzen. Manga fact



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Hiruzen's is superbly talented in every ninja skillset, which is why he's more talented than Tobirama.
> 
> The only thing we know that Tobirama > Hiruzen in is speed. Everything else Hiruzen has better hype/portrayal.



Let's see. Let's take ninjutsu for example. What is more impressive. Tobirama created edo tensei, the greatest non KKGK ninjutsu. Created kage bunshin, the most useful ninjutsu. Created hiraishin, top 3 non KKGK ninjutsu. That is superior than anything Hiruzen has shown. So, judging on what they have shown, Tobirama is superior



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Possibly. We don't know if Hiruzen was comparing himself to Tobirama or not. I'll conceed, though, that Hiruzen's statement is not sufficient evidence. But luckily, Hiruzen has other hype in the manga and DBs.



We do know he did not include Tobirama. This was made clear to us by the people who can read Japanese. He spoke derogatorily to the rest of the team but changed his way of speaking when he talked to Tobirama. Check the old translation pages, this was discussed



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Every DB statement and character statement in the manga seems to portray Hiruzen as the superior of the two.
> 
> If I have to choose between multiple DB entries and character statements, including a DB entry from the latest DB about "talent," and on panel feats that are difficult to use to compare them (they both lack feats, especially Hiruzen), I'm going to go with what the author seems to be drilling us with.
> 
> ...



The manga shows that Tobirama is superior. They both fought against the same opponent, Obito and Hiruzen was embarrassed. He never contributed a single thing in that fight. Tobirama on the other hand, figured out Obito's attacks, figured how to defeat his defense. Used Naruto to inflict damage. Saved Minato, Naruto and Sasuke and came up with the strategy for Sasuke and Naruto to hit Obito. Hiruzen was a spectator during that fight



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> You say that Tobirama was faster than Madara and Hashirama -- fine, but we know that they are both stronger than him and would defeat him, so clearly speed is not everything. Enma, and Hiruzen, being slower doesn't mean they would lose, just as it doesn't mean Madara or Hashirama would.



Enma being slower means that he ain't touching Tobirama. That was my point. Learn to follow


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## Mithos (Dec 10, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> The manga shows that Tobirama is superior. They both fought against the same opponent, Obito and Hiruzen was embarrassed. He never contributed a single thing in that fight. Tobirama on the other hand, figured out Obito's attacks, figured how to defeat his defense. Used Naruto to inflict damage. Saved Minato, Naruto and Sasuke and came up with the strategy for Sasuke and Naruto to hit Obito. Hiruzen was a spectator during that fight



The manga does not. You're arriving at that conclusion based on a skewed interpretation of situational on-panel feats. 

Tobirama also got "embarrassed." He got blitzed and sliced in half right from the get-go. He fared no better on his own. 

And Hiruzen actually had better analysis than Tobirama did, by figuring out Obito's attack just from seeing it once. Hiruzen wasn't a spectator; he was still regenerating from the damage and couldn't join the fight. 

You're comparing Tobirama + Minato + Naruto + Sasuke vs Obito to just Hiruzen vs Obito. That's not fair. We have no idea how much Hiruzen could have contributed to that fight, either strategy-wise or offensively. Based on how he deduced Obito's attack, he would have likely been able to contribute a lot, but we'll never know because he never got the chance. 




> Enma being slower means that he ain't touching Tobirama. That was my point. Learn to follow



How about you lose the attitude and stop being rude. 

Tobirama was beat down by Madara, who's slower than him. Faster characters often get hurt, or even defeated by, slower ones. That's a fact. 

This isn't Enma vs Tobirama. It's Hiruzen + Enma vs Tobirama, and together I don't see why they can't force Tobirama into a position where he gets hit.

I don't know where this idea that Tobirama will almost never be hit comes from. He got killed in battle, and in the only fights we've seen him in, he's been hit as well, so...


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## Itachі (Dec 10, 2015)

By hype, Hiruzen destroys. If we're talking about feats it's the other way around.



> Hiruzen Feats:





> -Strong Will


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## Idiopodivny (Dec 11, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> The databook says no such thing. It says that he had more TALENT than Tobirama. That, however, means nothing. Sakura had more talent than young Naruto but she was never stronger than him
> 
> Knowing genjutsu means nothing. Izuna had the sharingan. Heck, he had the mangekyou sharingan. Tobirama still killed him
> 
> ...



1. We're talking about young naruto come on now -,- Sakura had more chalra control than him and was smarter, no one ever said she was stronger. Besides, Naruto was lazy and didnt want to take the time to concetrate and learn how to use jutsu like all the other academy students and genin, tays why it took him so long to be promoted. My argument is it says that Hiruzen showed he was more talented than Tobirama at a young age while Tobirama was atill a Hokage himself. The definition of Talent is having a natural skill at something. So Hiruzen was naturally more skilled than Tobirama in a wide variety of things. 

2. I agree with you on the Izuna thing, you have a point. But there are still ways to dodge Hirashin. And it says he was the fastet shinobi of his era. Hiruzens prime and reign as Hokage is way past his Era. 

3. Tobirama can beat a sannin I agree

4. Hiruzen Can Use Edo tensei, he just hasnt used it because hes had no reason to. Just like he had no reason to use Dead demon consuming seal until he fought with Orochimaru. Hiruzen IS A SENSOR TYPE!  Look at the wikia. HE ALSO CAN USE MEDICAL NINJUTSU! he was the one that taught Tsunade hello!! And I bet he can use Hiarishin too! Orochimaru said he knew all the justu that oroginated in the leaf. I dont think he would lie. Even if he didnt master the flying god technique. That does not mean ge didnt know it. He was Tobiramas student after all. 

5. He was also trained by both Hokages. He was bound to at least surpass one of them. And he surpassed the weaker of the two Tobirama, 

6. Hiruzen wasnt giving it his all against Obito, he was just scoping out the enemies moves.


----------



## Senjuclan (Dec 11, 2015)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> The manga does not. You're arriving at that conclusion based on a skewed interpretation of situational on-panel feats.



Two fighters against the same opponent at the same time is the best way of interpreting the author's assessment of their strength. It's that simple



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Tobirama also got "embarrassed." He got blitzed and sliced in half right from the get-go. He fared no better on his own.



 You fail to take into account a major difference. Tobirama actually did something when he was blitzed. He put multiple marks on Obito that even he did not catch. Because of that, the alliance had an opening. Hiruzen did nothing. Tobirama succeeded to counter the attack somewhat



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> And Hiruzen actually had better analysis than Tobirama did, by figuring out Obito's attack just from seeing it once. Hiruzen wasn't a spectator; he was still regenerating from the damage and couldn't join the fight.



His "analysis" was speculation. He compared Obito's attack to kekkei tota. He concluded that Obito had a limit, which he did not. Tobirama actually came to the right conclusion that it was yin-yang release. Don't just repeat stuff like a kid. You should address my actual counterarguments.

Also, Hiruzen was a spectator the rest of that fight. Care to remind me what he did to help the alliance fight Obito after he got blitzed?



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> You're comparing Tobirama + Minato + Naruto + Sasuke vs Obito to just Hiruzen vs Obito. That's not fair. We have no idea how much Hiruzen could have contributed to that fight, either strategy-wise or offensively. Based on how he deduced Obito's attack, he would have likely been able to contribute a lot, but we'll never know because he never got the chance.



I am comparing Hiruzen's contribution, or lack thereof, to Tobirama's. Tobirama accomplished the following (1) he marked the jyuubi jin with hiraishin and bomb tags, something even Minato could not do (2) he attacked him with his explosive jutsus (3) he deduced the nature of his offense, that it was yin yang release and was the only person to do so (4) he deduced the weakness of yin yang release defense (5) he used a combo jutsu with Naruto to effectively hit Obito (6) He saved Minato, Naruto and Sasuke (7) he came up with the strategy of effectively hitting Obito. Those are his personal contributions. Hiruzen had a chance. He was there. He did nothing. That simply makes him inferior



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> How about you lose the attitude and stop being rude.



It's not rude to tell the truth



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Tobirama was beat down by Madara, who's slower than him. Faster characters often get hurt, or even defeated by, slower ones. That's a fact.



You keep repeating the same tired argument. I have already addressed this. Unless you have something new to add, refer to my comment that clearly stated that for slower characters to defeat faster characters, they need an advantage. Hiruzen has no such advantage. If he does, go ahead and name it



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> This isn't Enma vs Tobirama. It's Hiruzen + Enma vs Tobirama, and together I don't see why they can't force Tobirama into a position where he gets hit.



Because Tobirama has hiraishin! Plus, it will be Tobirama + edo tensei zombies vs. Enma and Hiruzen. They are not getting a chance to hit him



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> I don't know where this idea that Tobirama will almost never be hit comes from. He got killed in battle, and in the only fights we've seen him in, he's been hit as well, so...



No one has ever said that Tobirama can't be hit. I am only saying that he can't be hit by slow ass Enma and slow Hiruzen



Idiopodivny said:


> 1. We're talking about young naruto come on now -,- Sakura had more chalra control than him and was smarter, no one ever said she was stronger. Besides, Naruto was lazy and didnt want to take the time to concetrate and learn how to use jutsu like all the other academy students and genin, tays why it took him so long to be promoted. My argument is it says that Hiruzen showed he was more talented than Tobirama at a young age while Tobirama was atill a Hokage himself. The definition of Talent is having a natural skill at something. So Hiruzen was naturally more skilled than Tobirama in a wide variety of things.



In other words, you can be more talented but weaker. Thank you. 



Idiopodivny said:


> 2. I agree with you on the Izuna thing, you have a point. But there are still ways to dodge Hirashin. And it says he was the fastet shinobi of his era. Hiruzens prime and reign as Hokage is way past his Era.



1. Hiruzen has no way to dodge hiraishin
2. Hiruzen is not faster than the characters of Tobirama's prime



Idiopodivny said:


> 4. Hiruzen Can Use Edo tensei, he just hasnt used it because hes had no reason to. Just like he had no reason to use Dead demon consuming seal until he fought with Orochimaru.



Show me where the manga says that Hiruzen can use edo tensei? I will show you the panel where it (1) the people who can use edo tensei and (2) where Rasa says there was ONE other person who could use edo tensei during his age and that was Orochimaru



Idiopodivny said:


> Hiruzen IS A SENSOR TYPE!  Look at the wikia.



I don't look at the Wiki because it includes game and anime information. I go by the manga only. Hiruzen is not a sensor type. If you disagree, show me the panel where he sensed chakra



Idiopodivny said:


> HE ALSO CAN USE MEDICAL NINJUTSU! he was the one that taught Tsunade hello!!



Show me the panel that says that Hiruzen taught Tsunade medical ninjutsu



Idiopodivny said:


> And I bet he can use Hiarishin too! Orochimaru said he knew all the justu that oroginated in the leaf. I dont think he would lie. Even if he didnt master the flying god technique. That does not mean ge didnt know it. He was Tobiramas student after all.



So, are you saying that Hiruzen could also use all of Jiraiya's jutsus because they originated in the Leaf? or that he could use all sharingan jutsus originated in the Leaf? after all Orochimaru did not qualify that statement to exclude kekkei genkai. Also, characters say all kind of stuff that the author later retcons. Jiraiya said that Nagato was the only one to have all affinities and yet it turned out that to be wrong. His own sensei, Hiruzen could use all affinities and so could Tobirama and Hashirama. 

Hiruzen does NOT have hiraishin! He was not counted among those with space time ninjutsu by Minato. Plus, when he was resurrected and Minato and Tobirama used hiraishin, he did not. He relied on Minato to get him out of the Uchiha lair while Tobirama used it on his own



Idiopodivny said:


> 5. He was also trained by both Hokages. He was bound to at least surpass one of them. And he surpassed the weaker of the two Tobirama



Being trained by someone does not mean you surpass that person. That's nonsense 



Idiopodivny said:


> 6. Hiruzen wasnt giving it his all against Obito, he was just scoping out the enemies moves.



Manga panel where it says he was not giving it his all please


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 11, 2015)

> How about you lose the attitude and stop being rude.
> 
> Tobirama was beat down by Madara, who's slower than him. Faster characters often get hurt, or even defeated by, slower ones. That's a fact.
> 
> ...



SM Rinnegan Madara was not slower than Edo Tobirama, judging from his performance against him. 

It comes from his feats. Yes, he got killed, but we dont know how. Yes, he got hit, by the fastest characters in the entire Narutoverse. Tobirama is, in fact, one of the fastest shinobi ever. 

And judging from feats without taking hype into account (which was partly destroyed by manga), Tobirama effortlessly destroys Hiruzen.


----------



## Mithos (Dec 11, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> Two fighters against the same opponent at the same time is the best way of interpreting the author's assessment of their strength. It's that simple



But they didn't fight them in the same situation, so your comparison isn't useful. 

If Hiruzen had been there to fight alongside Naruto, Sasuke, Minato and Tobirama, then a comparison would make more sense. 



> You fail to take into account a major difference. Tobirama actually did something when he was blitzed. He put multiple marks on Obito that even he did not catch. Because of that, the alliance had an opening. Hiruzen did nothing. Tobirama succeeded to counter the attack somewhat



Both Hiruzen and Tobirama  "died" near instantly in the battle. Hiruzen doesn't have a technique to "mark" Obito, so it doesn't matter. Not only that, Tobirama was still conscious after he was attacked, while Hiruzen was not in such a position because his upper half was obliterated.



> His "analysis" was speculation. He compared Obito's attack to kekkei tota. He concluded that Obito had a limit, which he did not. Tobirama actually came to the right conclusion that it was yin-yang release. Don't just repeat stuff like a kid. You should address my actual counterarguments.



Hiruzen had pretty good speculation for seeing the technique for such a little time. Right away, Hiruzen made observations about the technique, how it seems to work, and what it's weaknesses might be. [1] [2] [3]

Tobirama, however, was saying things like "we hit him before he could shield himself with *those black things*," [4] and "we can't touch those *shape-shifting black balls*" [5]. Hiruzen had a much more in-depth analysis/speculation upon seeing the technique. 

Tobirama came to his conclusion only after he heard Obito say "I now have the power of the ancestor of all shinobi" [6], something that Hiruzen didn't hear since he was still regenerating and not present.  Hiruzen clearly anaylyzed/speculated more and faster by seeing the technique than Tobirama was able to do. 



> Also, Hiruzen was a spectator the rest of that fight. Care to remind me what he did to help the alliance fight Obito after he got blitzed?



Hiruzen was not a spectator, and he was unable to help the alliance because he was still regenerating. Damage from Obito's technique takes much longer to regenerate than other wounds, shown from how slow Minato's arm was to heal [7]. 



> I am comparing Hiruzen's contribution, or lack thereof, to Tobirama's. Tobirama accomplished the following (1) he marked the jyuubi jin with hiraishin and bomb tags, something even Minato could not do (2) he attacked him with his explosive jutsus (3) he deduced the nature of his offense, that it was yin yang release and was the only person to do so (4) he deduced the weakness of yin yang release defense (5) he used a combo jutsu with Naruto to effectively hit Obito (6) He saved Minato, Naruto and Sasuke (7) he came up with the strategy of effectively hitting Obito. Those are his personal contributions. Hiruzen had a chance. He was there. He did nothing. That simply makes him inferior



Tobirama had the chance to do this because when he was "killed" it wasn't with onmyouton, so he was able to regenerate fairly quickly and rejoin the battle. Hiruzen, however, didn't have that chance since he was "killed" with a technique that severely inhibits Edo Tensei regeneration. 

If Obito had chosen to do so, he could have blitzed Tobirama with onmyouton instead of just slicing him in half, and then Tobirama wouldn't have been able to make those contributions. 



> It's not rude to tell the truth



Get off your high horse. If you can't be civil, then I'm not going to continue. 



> You keep repeating the same tired argument. I have already addressed this. Unless you have something new to add, refer to my comment that clearly stated that for slower characters to defeat faster characters, they need an advantage. Hiruzen has no such advantage. If he does, go ahead and name it



Hiruzen has plenty of advantages: superiority in elemental and ranged ninjutsu, ability in genjutsu, skill in taijutsu/CQC, and intelligence. 

Hiruzen has more advantages than Tobirama does. In fact, Tobirama's only advantage seems to be mobility. 



> Because Tobirama has hiraishin! Plus, it will be Tobirama + edo tensei zombies vs. Enma and Hiruzen. They are not getting a chance to hit him



I was taking Hiraishin into account. He's had that in all of his battles and when he fought the Kinkaku Force, but he still got hit. And it didn't stop him from getting impaled by black rods by Madara. Hiraishin doesn't make the user impossible to hit. 

Why are you including Edo Tensei? Unless Tobirama always has dead jounin level or higher ninja prepped to resurrect, that doesn't really matter here. But yes - Tobirama could win a fight in the right conditions with Edo Tensei. 



> No one has ever said that Tobirama can't be hit. I am only saying that he can't be hit by slow ass Enma and slow Hiruzen



Maybe not if Tobirama is on the defensive and is at a distance ready to dodge. But when he attacks he will be left open to counter-attack, and it's possible that they hit him then. 



> In other words, you can be more talented but weaker. Thank you



That's true. But all other manga hype and portrayal also point to Hiruzen being "stronger." People have said that it's outdated, but then Hiruzen's superiority is _suggested_ again in the latest DB. 



> 1. Hiruzen has no way to dodge hiraishin
> 2. Hiruzen is not faster than the characters of Tobirama's prime



1. Hiruzen has thousands of jutsu, proficiency in genjutsu, clones, and is a master of taijutsu. Madara out-did Tobirama's Hiraishin using CQC, so Hiruzen's skill could allow him to defend himself and counter. 

2. He doesn't have to be.



StarWanderer said:


> SM Rinnegan Madara was not slower than Edo Tobirama, judging from his performance against him.
> 
> It comes from his feats. Yes, he got killed, but we dont know how. Yes, he got hit, by the fastest characters in the entire Narutoverse. Tobirama is, in fact, one of the fastest shinobi ever.
> 
> And judging from feats without taking hype into account (which was partly destroyed by manga), Tobirama effortlessly destroys Hiruzen.



There is nothing to indicate that Madara was faster than Tobirama. In fact, Hiraishin gives Tobirama the ability to cover much more distance more quickly than Madara ever could. 

It looked like Madara defeated Tobirama with superior CQC skill [1] [2]. 

Feats don't suggest that. Hiruzen's lack of feats doesn't mean we should assume he gets "effortlessly destroyed." 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be taking the stance that since Hiruzen was never shown on panel countering Hiraishin, he loses by feats. There aren't any feats to suggest that he would be destroyed, either. Which is why we have to consider what we know about them and what's been said about them, because on panel feats give us no indication either way.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 11, 2015)

> There is nothing to indicate that Madara was faster than Tobirama.



Um... The very scan you've provided? 

Yes, he was physically faster. He dodged Tobirama's attack and would have counter-attacked him if not for Tobirama's Shunshin.



> In fact, Hiraishin gives Tobirama the ability to cover much more distance more quickly than Madara ever could.



In fact, Hiraishin has nothing to do with speed - it's a teleportation.



> It looked like Madara defeated Tobirama with superior CQC skill [1] [2].



And through speed advantage.



> Feats don't suggest that. Hiruzen's lack of feats doesn't mean we should assume he gets "effortlessly destroyed."



If we dont take hype into account and judge them with feats only? Yes, Tobirama effortlessly destroys him. His Shunshin was faster than KCM Minato's movement speed. He reacted to Juubito's movement speed and Shunshin, touching him (marking him) in the process seemingly by the hand which was erased by Juubito's Gudoudama. According to feats, he is on another speed level to the point when he can effortlessly speedblitz Hiruzen.



> Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be taking the stance that since Hiruzen was never shown on panel countering Hiraishin, he loses by feats. There aren't any feats to suggest that he would be destroyed, either. Which is why we have to consider what we know about them and what's been said about them, because on panel feats give us no indication either way.



Tobirama's clone got to Gudoudama using Shunshin before KCM Minato could touch that gudoudama with his hand. Yeah, and the marking feat as well.



If we judge from feats only, Hiruzen gets speedblitzed.


----------



## Mithos (Dec 11, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Um... The very scan you've provided?
> 
> Yes, he was physically faster. He dodged Tobirama's attack and would have counter-attacked him if not for Tobirama's Shunshin.



How does that suggest he's faster? So any time a ninja evades another ninja and counters them in CQC they're faster? No, that's not how that works. Tobirama's attack was dodged, and that left him open, which Madara then exploited. That's more CQC skill than speed. 




> In fact, Hiraishin has nothing to do with speed - it's a teleportation



Semantics. It counts as part of Tobirama's "mobility."



> And through speed advantage.



No not really. Madara barely moved from his position, so I don't see how that suggests he's faster. 




> If we dont take hype into account and judge them with feats only? Yes, Tobirama effortlessly destroys him. His Shunshin was faster than KCM Minato's movement speed. He reacted to Juubito's movement speed and Shunshin, touching him (marking him) in the process seemingly by the hand which was erased by Juubito's Gudoudama. According to feats, he is on another speed level to the point when he can effortlessly speedblitz Hiruzen.



You're not understanding my feats argument. 

What feats suggest that Hiruzen cannot deal with Tobirama's speed? Hiruzen doesn't have feats that show he can, but he also hasn't been shown to have poor reactions or be susceptible to faster opponents (aside from Obito, who also blitzed Tobirama so that's moot), either. You're assuming that because Hiruzen doesn't have feats that show his speed in a positive light, that means he's going to get speedblitzed. I don't think speed feats should be used like that. 





> Tobirama's clone got to Gudoudama using Shunshin before KCM Minato could touch that gudoudama with his hand. Yeah, and the marking feat as well.
> 
> 
> 
> If we judge from feats only, Hiruzen gets speedblitzed.



And Hiruzen used Shunshin and reached Naruto before Tobirama could intervene and save Naruto himself [1] [2].


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 11, 2015)

> How does that suggest he's faster? So any time a ninja evades another ninja and counters them in CQC they're faster? No, that's not how that works. Tobirama's attack was dodged, and that left him open, which Madara then exploited. That's more CQC skill than speed.



Madara was at least coparable to Tobirama in terms of speed, since he dodged Tobirama's strike.



> You're not understanding my feats argument.
> 
> What feats suggest that Hiruzen cannot deal with Tobirama's speed? Hiruzen doesn't have feats that show he can, but he also hasn't been shown to have poor reactions or be susceptible to faster opponents (aside from Obito, who also blitzed Tobirama so that's moot), either. You're assuming that because Hiruzen doesn't have feats that show his speed in a positive light, that means he's going to get speedblitzed. I don't think speed feats should be used like that.



Orochimaru dealt with him just fine. Hiruzen has never shown any kind of speed feat to suggest that he will be able to do anything against Tobirama's blitz.





> And Hiruzen used Shunshin and reached Naruto before Tobirama could intervene and save Naruto himself [1] [2].



He could be near Naruto when Tobirama and Minato talked, for example. So how that proves anything is beyond me.


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## Trojan (Dec 13, 2015)

Pff, I guess I have to waste time writing more stuff. Oh well. 

@DP



> Hiruzen was not a spectator, and he was unable to help the alliance because he was still regenerating. Damage from Obito's technique takes much longer to regenerate than other wounds, shown from how slow Minato's arm was to heal



Minato's arm was not going to heal because of the GD asspull that for God knows reason did not have the
same effect on Hiruzen/Tobirama



> If Obito had chosen to do so, he could have blitzed Tobirama with onmyouton instead of just slicing him in half, and then Tobirama wouldn't have been able to make those contributions.


Actually Obito did destroy Tobirama with the Gedu-Dama, but the power of asspull allowed him to regenerate
and for some reason much faster than Hiruzen. 

@Star


> He could be near Naruto when Tobirama and Minato talked, for example. So how that proves anything is beyond me.



You come off quite the hypocrite. What makes your "argument" of Tobirama's clones speed
any better than his argument of Hiruzen being faster than Tobirama? He could be near Naruto you said?
Well, Tobirama could have been near Minato as well.  Also, when Tobirama sensed Narudo's chakra
why did he not sense Hiruzen's chakra and knew that he will save him? 



> According to feats, he is on another speed level to the point when he can effortlessly speedblitz Hiruzen.


Neither Kin/Gin or Darui have that much of speed feats. Yet, the first 2 fodderstompped Tobirama, and the other one defeated them.
Even tho all 3 of them are slower than Tobirama.  Of course, the same with madara who admitted that Tobirama is faster than
him as well.

@SenjuClan


> Because Tobirama has hiraishin! Plus, it will be Tobirama + edo tensei zombies vs. Enma and Hiruzen. They are not getting a chance to hit him



ET needs sacrifices to be used. Tobirama can't use it otherwise. Unless you are willing to take Hiruzen being able to use SF without sacrificing himself
as well.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 13, 2015)

> You come off quite the hypocrite. What makes your "argument" of Tobirama's clones speed
> any better than his argument of Hiruzen being faster than Tobirama? He could be near Naruto you said?



Yes, he could.



> Well, Tobirama could have been near Minato as well. Also, when Tobirama sensed Narudo's chakra



Oh realy?



Can you see Tobirama's clone anywhere near Minato?



> why did he not sense Hiruzen's chakra and knew that he will save him?





Knew he will save him? What are you referring to?

According to Tobirama, sensing Naruto would have been useless due to lots of Shinju's branshes full of chakra covering Naruto. Tobirama could turn off his sensing ability and couldnt sense Hiruzen because of that.



> Neither Kin/Gin or Darui have that much of speed feats. Yet, the first 2 fodderstompped Tobirama, and the other one defeated them.
> Even tho all 3 of them are slower than Tobirama. Of course, the same with madara who admitted that Tobirama is faster than
> him as well.



We dont know if they fodderstomped him or not (according to feats, they couldnt do that). We dont know anything about Tobirama's fight with Kin and Gin. 

The thing is - a speed gap between Madara and Tobirama is not large, plus Madara has EMS precognition. But Hiruzen? Judging from feats, he is not even remotely close to Tobirama, *not even remotely close*.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 13, 2015)

Can you see Hiruzen anywhere near Narudo? 
Gedou Mazou
Gedou Mazou



> According to Tobirama, sensing Naruto would have been useless due to lots of Shinju's branshes full of chakra covering Naruto. Tobirama could turn off his sensing ability and couldnt sense Hiruzen because of that.


So, Hiruzen was next to Narudo, but Tobirama did not sense him? 
where did he say that he turned off his sensing? 



> We dont know if they fodderstomped him or not (according to feats, they couldnt do that). We dont know anything about Tobirama's fight with Kin and Gin.



"The second Hokage we fucking wiped the floor with" seems a fodderstomps to me. 

We know he got his ass kicked. 



> The thing is - a speed gap between Madara and Tobirama is not large, plus Madara has EMS precognition. But Hiruzen? Judging from feats, he is not even remotely close to Tobirama, not even remotely close.



Must be why they arrived at the same time.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 13, 2015)

> Can you see Hiruzen anywhere near Narudo?
> Gedou Mazou
> Gedou Mazou



Um... He could be behind those branches, as i said before. In my scan, the territory around Minato, Naruto and Sasuke is perfectly visible, it's different in the scans which you've provided.

Hiruzen could be near Naruto, Tobirama's clone wasnt near Minato, which is visible in the manga.



> So, Hiruzen was next to Narudo, but Tobirama did not sense him?
> where did he say that he turned off his sensing?



But Tobirama could turn off his sensing in order to preserve chakra (sensing is not a passive ability), because it was useless anyway. Edo tensei regenerate chakra, but it's better to preserve chakra for later battles, because it takes some time to regenerate, according to manga.

Yeah, by the way, "Being able to sense Naruto is useless", because of lots of chakra branches and inability to see the differense between him and the branches, which absorbed Kurama's chakra up to that moment?



> "The second Hokage we fucking wiped the floor with" seems a fodderstomps to me.
> 
> We know he got his ass kicked.



Scan please.



> Must be why they arrived at the same time.



When there was no sense to spend lots of chakra on Shunshin, since they would need it later.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 13, 2015)

> Um... He could be behind those branches, as i said before. In my scan, the territory around Minato, Naruto and Sasuke is perfectly visible, it's different in the scans which you've provided.
> 
> Hiruzen could be near Naruto, Tobirama's clone wasnt near Minato, which is visible in the manga.



You're reaching. 
by your logic, how do you know that Tobirama was not 1cm behind the unseen area? 



> But Tobirama could turn off his sensing in order to preserve chakra (sensing is not a passive ability), because it was useless anyway. Edo tensei regenerate chakra, but it's better to preserve chakra for later battles, because it takes some time to regenerate, according to manga.
> 
> Yeah, by the way, "Being able to sense Naruto is useless", because of lots of chakra branches and inability to see the differense between him and the branches, which absorbed Kurama's chakra up to that moment?



Except he did not. 
Why would he turn his sensing off in the battle when it was active since they return as an ET, and when he
sensed Kaguya's chakra...etc?  

No, it's because of his unability to do anything to the branches in the way. So, even if he knows where he is, he won't be able to save him with his weak water-style jutsu. 


> Scan please.


Ginkaku: its sucks...that we, who fucking floored the 2nd hokage are under his justu...dont u think, Kinkaku? 



It's obvious that he got his ass kicked and that even with all of his students together, they were no match. 
They knew that much. 



> When there was no sense to spend lots of chakra on Shunshin, since they would need it later.


BS. 
Especially for Tobirama who was the one who wanted to go ASAP out of all the Hokages. 
That was *PRECISELY* to show off their speed. Rather the reaching you do about off-panel "feats" that everyone and their mothers know that they are used for dramatic effects and NOT to show who is faster than who. 

You keep focusing on the trivial things that are NOT meant to be taken in that way and ignore those feats/events
that meant to be seen in that specific way. Pfff


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 13, 2015)

> You're reaching.
> by your logic, how do you know that Tobirama was not 1cm behind the unseen area?



He could hide behind Naruto and Sasuke to the point when we couldnt see him there, oe what?

In the scan, the area in 3-5 meters radius is visible. Tobirama wasnt anywhere near Minato.

The situation is different when we talk about your scans, where we can see tree branches covering the battlefield and Naruto.



> Except he did not.
> Why would he turn his sensing off in the battle when it was active since they return as an ET, and when he
> sensed Kaguya's chakra...etc?
> 
> No, it's because of his unability to do anything to the branches in the way. So, even if he knows where he is, he won't be able to save him with his weak water-style jutsu.



How do you know that it was active all that time? Do you have any proof?

Or, it's because of chakra of those tree branches. Maybe he couldnt sense Hiruzen.



> Ginkaku: its sucks...that we, who fucking floored the 2nd hokage are under his justu...dont u think, Kinkaku?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Judging from their feats, that doesnt make sense. Again - we've never seen their battle. They could floor Tobirama with some artifacts, or they could be with lots of shinobi to back them up.

Also, are you sure that we can trust to that dude who translated that scan?



> BS.
> Especially for Tobirama who was the one who wanted to go ASAP out of all the Hokages.
> That was PRECISELY to show off their speed. Rather the reaching you do about off-panel "feats" that everyone and their mothers know that they are used for dramatic effects and NOT to show who is faster than who.
> 
> ...



The same can be said about your arguement - BS. 

I never ignore feats, i've never done that during the debate. Your words about the meaning of certain feats is just your opinion, nothing more.


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 13, 2015)

If Sarutobi possessed greater talent than Tobirama in his youth he should've become stronger than he was because he lived more than long enough to realize that talent.

Actually, the databook stating that makes it even more likely that he wasn't just bluffing when he told Danzō he was the best in that group that included Tobirama.


I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Third was never retconned, _Hashirama_ was the one who got retconned. How the Third compares to the other Hokage, and Kage, is still the same.


----------



## Itachі (Dec 13, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> If Sarutobi possessed greater talent than Tobirama in his youth he should've become stronger than he was because he lived more than long enough to realize that talent.
> 
> Actually, the databook stating that makes it even more likely that he wasn't just bluffing when he told Danzō he was the best in that group that included Tobirama.
> 
> ...



What about Minato? Wasn't it said that Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage?


----------



## Trojan (Dec 13, 2015)

> [=StarWanderer;54877777]He could hide behind Naruto and Sasuke to the point when we couldnt see him there, oe what?
> 
> In the scan, the area in 3-5 meters radius is visible. Tobirama wasnt anywhere near Minato.
> 
> The situation is different when we talk about your scans, where we can see tree branches covering the battlefield and Naruto.



We saw that he was not around Narudo, and we know for a fact that Obito destroyed him far away
from his as well.  As when Obito released the Tree everyone was OUTSIDE of the barrier
beside Narudo, Minato, Tobirama, Asspulldara, and Hashirama


> How do you know that it was active all that time? Do you have any proof?
> 
> Or, it's because of chakra of those tree branches. Maybe he couldnt sense Hiruzen.



Because it was active before, during, and after the event. You're the one who needs to prove otherwise. Pff

What the hell does the branches have to do with sensing Hiruzen? He was able to sense Narudo.  



> Judging from their feats, that doesnt make sense. Again - we've never seen their battle. They could floor Tobirama with some artifacts, or they could be with lots of shinobi to back them up.
> 
> Also, are you sure that we can trust to that dude who translated that scan?



Tell that to Tobirama who got defeated. 
They defeated him twice.  

He is a native JP speaker, and well-known here to be a trustworthy. 


> The same can be said about your arguement - BS.
> 
> I never ignore feats, i've never done that during the debate. Your words about the meaning of certain feats is just your opinion, nothing more.



You lack the basic understanding of the manga sweetheart. If we follow you logic
Tsunade and Suigetsu will also be faster and has better reaction that the Raikage. 

and this example with Hiruzen being faster than Tobirama and so on. 

Those things are unavoidable for the sake of the plot. However, there are times where the author's intention is to show someone is faster/stronger/smarter...etc, and others where it is not meant to be seen like that. But you clearly can't distinguish between them and that's why you can't be in 1 ground/side. 

This whole Minato/Tobirama/Hiruzen is a perfect example. 



FlamingRain said:


> If Sarutobi possessed greater talent than Tobirama in his youth he should've become stronger than he was because he lived more than long enough to realize that talent.
> 
> Actually, the databook stating that makes it even more likely that he wasn't just bluffing when he told Danzō he was the best in that group that included Tobirama.
> 
> ...



I disagree. If something is retconned, then the whole thing with it get retconned as well. 
Hiruzen's hype is about his prime, which we have never seen, so he might be the strongest if we get the chance to see him.
However, if we assume that his "strongest Hokage" was changed to whoever you think became the strongest, then his hype is no longer apply to the
rest because it is simply changed as if it never existed. 

For example: Tobirama in part 1 was hyped to be a great Water-Style user because he can use Water without source. However, it was retconned in part 2
and no EVERYONE can use it without source, can we say the water-element is what got retconned, but not Tobirama? No. He is no longer special in that
department and that hype is simply wasted.


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 13, 2015)

Say Hiruzen originally had a power worth about 100 points, the other Hokage were in the 90s and other Kage in the 80s.

If Kishi decides that Hashirama should be the strongest and elevates him to 250, that still leaves Hiruzen beyond the remaining Hokage and Kage.


Suiton users were already able to Suitons without a source in the first databook. What made Tobirama's feat incredible was that he was able to use Suitons _so large_ without a pre-existing source, not just that he could use them without a pre-existing source for them.

If you put Tobirama with the alliance who combined their Suiton to cancel out Madara's Katon in Part 2, the Hokage would still be anticipated to whip out a far bigger Suiton than any of them did.



Itachі said:


> What about Minato?



I'd say the same. Minato is one of the remaining Hokage I was referring to.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 13, 2015)

But things might not be that way to begin with. So, for example, instead of making Hashirama "250" he could have simply switched between them, so Hashirama be the "100" and Hiruzen the "80" for example. 



> Suiton users were already able to Suitons without a source in the first databook. What made Tobirama's feat incredible was that he was able to use Suitons so large without a pre-existing source, not just that he could use them without a pre-existing source for them.


No, they really did not. All Water-Style moves used by Zabuza, Kakashi, Kisame and itachi were used near
a water source. It's just in part 2 where they were able to use it without that.

Zabuza threw Kakashi to the water and then used his move
Gedou Mazou
Gedou Mazou

Zabuza and Kakashi's dragons are formed from the river 
Gedou Mazou
Gedou Mazou

and so is this jutsu
Gedou Mazou

Kisame's jutsu water is clearly coming from the river
Gedou Mazou

and so is Kakashi's
Gedou Mazou
Gedou Mazou

Same here with Kakashi and itachi's jutsu
Link removed

both attacks came from the river 

That's why Tobirama was hyped for his water-style jutsu in part 1. However, part 2 changed all of that.

and no about the second part either. The ANBU was talking about being able to use it on a dry land. Otherwise, the others were able to show ever greater moves.



> If you put Tobirama with the alliance who combined their Suiton to cancel out Madara's Katon in Part 2, the Hokage would still be anticipated to whip out a far bigger Suiton than any of them did.


Not really, we have never seen him doing anything great in term of elements compared to part 2 characters.


----------



## FlamingRain (Dec 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> But things might not be that way to begin with.



The thing is that we're given no indication that they weren't. Things like Hiruzen canceling out the five elemental blasts by using the same ones and being stated to display greater talent than Tobirama in his youth suggest that what happened was that Hashirama was enhanced, not that Hiruzen was also de-powered.



> No, they really did not.




*Spoiler*: _Databook 1 - Suiton: Suiryuudan no Jutsu_ 






> NINJUTSU; Suiton: Suiryuudan no jutsu (Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet technique)
> User: Momochi Zabuza
> Offensive; Close, Medium, Long ranges; Rank: B
> 
> ...








> The ANBU was talking about being able to use it on a dry land.



The Anbu was shocked that Tobirama could use Suiton _of such scale_ on dry land.



> Not really, we have never seen him doing anything great in term of elements compared to part 2 characters.



That doesn't mean he wouldn't have been able to.


But I've got more stuff to do irl so I probably won't be spending much more time on this.


----------



## Senjuclan (Dec 14, 2015)

Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> But they didn't fight them in the same situation, so your comparison isn't useful.



They did. The faced the same guy. One person got pulverized so much he did not reappear until the end. 



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> If Hiruzen had been there to fight alongside Naruto, Sasuke, Minato and Tobirama, then a comparison would make more sense.



Hiruzen was not there because he got pulverized by the SAME guy. He could not avoid movement slower than teleportation. This is exactly why Tobirama will always defeat him. Once marked by hiraishin, he has no counter



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Both Hiruzen and Tobirama  "died" near instantly in the battle. Hiruzen doesn't have a technique to "mark" Obito, so it doesn't matter. Not only that, Tobirama was still conscious after he was attacked, while Hiruzen was not in such a position because his upper half was obliterated.



Thanks for making my point. They faced the same opponent and Hiruzen fared worse



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Hiruzen had pretty good speculation for seeing the technique for such a little time. Right away, Hiruzen made observations about the technique, how it seems to work, and what it's weaknesses might be. [1] [2] [3]



Neither of which turned out to be true. Useless speculation is useless



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Tobirama, however, was saying things like "we hit him before he could shield himself with *those black things*," [4] and "we can't touch those *shape-shifting black balls*" [5]. Hiruzen had a much more in-depth analysis/speculation upon seeing the technique.



Speculation is NOT analysis



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Tobirama came to his conclusion only after he heard Obito say "I now have the power of the ancestor of all shinobi" [6], something that Hiruzen didn't hear since he was still regenerating and not present.  Hiruzen clearly anaylyzed/speculated more and faster by seeing the technique than Tobirama was able to do.



Speculation is NOT analysis. 



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Hiruzen was not a spectator, and he was unable to help the alliance because he was still regenerating. Damage from Obito's technique takes much longer to regenerate than other wounds, shown from how slow Minato's arm was to heal [7].



They were both hit by the same guy using the same jutsu. One reacted and marked the guy attacking him and counterattacked. The other one was taken out of commission for chapters. Case closed



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Tobirama had the chance to do this because when he was "killed" it wasn't with onmyouton, so he was able to regenerate fairly quickly and rejoin the battle. Hiruzen, however, didn't have that chance since he was "killed" with a technique that severely inhibits Edo Tensei regeneration.



Link removed

Tobirama was hit with onmyouton too. However, he reacted. Hiruzen was annihilated as fodder and could not regenerate for hours



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> If Obito had chosen to do so, he could have blitzed Tobirama with onmyouton instead of just slicing him in half, and then Tobirama wouldn't have been able to make those contributions.



I will leave this here again

Link removed



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Get off your high horse. If you can't be civil, then I'm not going to continue.



I don't care if you continue or not. Free country bro



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Hiruzen has plenty of advantages: superiority in elemental and ranged ninjutsu, ability in genjutsu, skill in taijutsu/CQC, and intelligence.



1. Tobirama can use all 5 elements, so Hiruzen has no advantage there
2. Tobirama's suiton are all long ranged. Plus, long range jutsus are not advantage here since Tobirama has hiraishin and sensing
3. Genjutsu is not an advantage because it does not work on kage bunshin and a sensor can know when his chakra is disturbed
4. Hiruzen has no advantage is CQC. QCC is guaranteed death against a hiraishin user
5. Tobirama has shown superior intelligence to Hiruzen. He created more jutsus. He has shown superior analytical and tactital battle prowess. Show me a single instance of Hiruzen using intelligence in battle or creating a jutsu that shows superior intelligence

None of the things you mentioned are advantages. They are assets that Hiruzen has. However, Tobirama can counter all of them. Hiruzen, on the other hand, does not have a counter for hiraishin and his only counter for edo tensei is a suicide move. So, one has to conclude that Tobirama is the superior fighter here because he has assets that Hiruzen has no counters for



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Hiruzen has more advantages than Tobirama does. In fact, Tobirama's only advantage seems to be mobility.







Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> I was taking Hiraishin into account. He's had that in all of his battles and when he fought the Kinkaku Force, but he still got hit. And it didn't stop him from getting impaled by black rods by Madara. Hiraishin doesn't make the user impossible to hit.



Apples and oranges. We are comparing Hiruzen to Tobirama not Madara to Tobirama. Tell me how Hiruzen deals with hiraishin not some other fighter

In case you did not realize, Madara has rimbo. We never saw how he impaled Tobirama but the only logical conclusion we can come to is that he used rimbo, the same jutsu he used on Sasuke once Kishi cut back to that fight



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Why are you including Edo Tensei? Unless Tobirama always has dead jounin level or higher ninja prepped to resurrect, that doesn't really matter here. But yes - Tobirama could win a fight in the right conditions with Edo Tensei.



Edo tensei requires prep ONCE. Once sacrificed, a ninja can be summoned and unsummoned at will



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Maybe not if Tobirama is on the defensive and is at a distance ready to dodge. But when he attacks he will be left open to counter-attack, and it's possible that they hit him then.



Tobirama has better reaction feats than Hiruzen and better speed feats. So, Hiruzen is not hitting him.



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> That's true. But all other manga hype and portrayal also point to Hiruzen being "stronger." People have said that it's outdated, but then Hiruzen's superiority is _suggested_ again in the latest DB.



SHOW ME where the latest DB says this. I have asked you this before. We have already discussed that talent is not strength. So, show me where it suggests that Hiruzen was stronger 



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> 1. Hiruzen has thousands of jutsu, proficiency in genjutsu, clones, and is a master of taijutsu. Madara out-did Tobirama's Hiraishin using CQC, so Hiruzen's skill could allow him to defend himself and counter.



1. The manga actually never shows how Madara outdid Tobirama. The only logical conclusion I can come to is that he used rimbo
2. Tell me HOW Hiruzen counters hiraishin. Don't just tell me that he does because you feel so



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> There is nothing to indicate that Madara was faster than Tobirama. In fact, Hiraishin gives Tobirama the ability to cover much more distance more quickly than Madara ever could.
> 
> It looked like Madara defeated Tobirama with superior CQC skill [1] [2].



Actually the manga never shows how Tobirama was defeated. The ensuing events lead me to conclude that Madara must have used rimbo just like he did on Sasuke in the same chapter

2



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Feats don't suggest that. Hiruzen's lack of feats doesn't mean we should assume he gets "effortlessly destroyed."



Hiruzen has more on panel manga feats than Tobirama. Yet, he has inferior showing. So, we have to conclude that he is inferior



Dresseur Pok?mon said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be taking the stance that since Hiruzen was never shown on panel countering Hiraishin, he loses by feats. There aren't any feats to suggest that he would be destroyed, either. Which is why we have to consider what we know about them and what's been said about them, because on panel feats give us no indication either way.



I am taking the stance that Tobirama was destroyed by Obito's movement, which is slower than hiraishin and therefore, he would be destroyed by hiraishin


----------



## Senjuclan (Dec 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> ET needs sacrifices to be used. Tobirama can't use it otherwise. Unless you are willing to take Hiruzen being able to use SF without sacrificing himself
> as well.



Don't be dense. Once summoned, unless the edo tensei is sealed, the summoner can use it multiple times.


----------



## Dr. White (Dec 14, 2015)

If Hiruzen is allowed full arsenal here via hype/DB and is in prime condition somewhat similar to his edo version he has a decent chance here. Tobirama isn't fast enough to shushin blitz Hiruzen at this distance, and his FTG isn't as efficient as Minato's. Hiruzen can easily do some doton trickery to eliminate LOS and begin his fuckery. 
A.) I don't know why people are acting like his reaction/close range movement speed will be eclipsed. He dodged Obito's intial headshot at him and took just a shoulder wound which was impressive, he kept up with the other Kage Shushining across miles to get to the battlefield (only Minato was hyped as significantly ahead), and even back in his old age he could keep up with the taijutsu of both Tobirama and Hiruzen and even tagged them faster than Orochimaru could see in a way similar to how Tobirama tagged Juubito.
B.) Extreme elemental mastery across the board, access to dozens of supplementary jutsu like sensing, clones, Summon, and Genjutsu make this a tough match for Tobirama. Hiruzen should be able to affect the environment in a major way using 	Magen: Kokoni Arazu no Jutsu for instance. That can come in handy when you have someone who can make 4 clones and blast you with each element.
C.) If Hiruzen realizes he's gonna lose and feels salty enough Tobirama really has no counter to Shiki Fujin except killing Hiruzen faster than he can summon it.


That being said Tobirama still holds an inherent speed advantage and FTG which can get him out of some murky situations. His main problem will be overcoming Hiruzen's versatility and sheer elemental range. My problem with seeing him winning, is that not only is Hiruzen smart and reactive enough to counter the direct application of Tobi's FTG, but Tobirama will be hardpressed to set it up via just suitons. Even if he gets a clone or two to help, I don't see how that can overcome the elemental versatility Hiruzen possesses leaving him really one dimensional. The major factor here is Hiruzen's physical robustness.

I'd say Hiruzen 7/10 times High to extreme diff. Unless he's limited only to feats.


----------



## Senjuclan (Dec 14, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> If Hiruzen is allowed full arsenal here via hype/DB and is in prime condition somewhat similar to his edo version he has a decent chance here.



Let's grant him ALL of the jutsus in Konoha excluding KKGK and he still loses. He can't handle edo tensei + hiraishin



Dr. White said:


> Tobirama isn't fast enough to shushin blitz Hiruzen at this distance, and his FTG isn't as efficient as Minato's. Hiruzen can easily do some doton trickery to eliminate LOS and begin his fuckery.



1. Hiruzen in his prime was blitzed by Orochimaru (refer to the scans of the flashback on Hiruzen finding out that Oro was conducting research on Konoha ninjas). Tobirama was faster than alive Hashirama with sage mode, that makes him significantly faster than Orochimaru and therefore able to blitz Hiruzen. Furthermore, his hiraishin works the same way as Minato's. He does not use as many seals but engages in CQC so combine hiraishin with sword attacks. Hiruzen will fall to this 



Dr. White said:


> A.) I don't know why people are acting like his reaction/close range movement speed will be eclipsed. He dodged Obito's intial headshot at him and took just a shoulder wound which was impressive



Tobirama was MORE impressive and we are comparing the two here



Dr. White said:


> he kept up with the other Kage Shushining across miles to get to the battlefield (only Minato was hyped as significantly ahead), and even back in his old age he could keep up with the taijutsu of both Tobirama and Hiruzen and even tagged them faster than Orochimaru could see in a way similar to how Tobirama tagged Juubito.



Hashirama also kept up with Tobirama and yet Tobirama was hyped as being faster than him. Suigetsu also kept up with Sasuke, does that mean they have similar speed? Kirabi also kept up with Naruto when they left the island, does that mean he is as fast as Naruto?



Dr. White said:


> B.) Extreme elemental mastery across the board, access to dozens of supplementary jutsu like sensing, clones, Summon, and Genjutsu make this a tough match for Tobirama. Hiruzen should be able to affect the environment in a major way using 	Magen: Kokoni Arazu no Jutsu for instance. That can come in handy when you have someone who can make 4 clones and blast you with each element.



1. Show me a scan of Hiruzen sensing chakra. I must have missed it
2. Clones? LOL ... Tobirama created them. He can use tajuu kage bunshin too. Genjutsu? LOL ... Does not work on clones and sensors know when they are under genjutsu

3. That Z level genjutsu won't help him against a sensor with his clones



Dr. White said:


> C.) If Hiruzen realizes he's gonna lose and feels salty enough Tobirama really has no counter to Shiki Fujin except killing Hiruzen faster than he can summon it.



Activating Shiki fujin takes more time than using hiraishingiri



Dr. White said:


> That being said Tobirama still holds an inherent speed advantage and FTG which can get him out of some murky situations. His main problem will be overcoming Hiruzen's versatility and sheer elemental range. My problem with seeing him winning, is that not only is Hiruzen smart and reactive enough to counter the direct application of Tobi's FTG, but Tobirama will be hardpressed to set it up via just suitons. Even if he gets a clone or two to help, I don't see how that can overcome the elemental versatility Hiruzen possesses leaving him really one dimensional. The major factor here is Hiruzen's physical robustness.



1. Tobirama can use all elemental jutsus as well
2. They both can use tajuu kage bunshin. However, one of them has more chakra than the other. Who do you think has the advantage here?
3. Tobirama can use edo tensei, which takes no effort on his part
4. He can use hiraishin goshun mawashi to attack a clone and then switch the attack on Hiruzen. That worked on the jyuubi jin, it will work on Hiruzen



Dr. White said:


> I'd say Hiruzen 7/10 times High to extreme diff. Unless he's limited only to feats.





Even with all the known jutsus in Konoha, there is nothing he can do to stop edo tensei zombies tagged with hiraishin and hiraishin giri. Heck hiraishin goshun mawashi will kill him. Tobirama only needs to tag Hiruzen, which he can do easily since Hiruzen engages in CQC often, and then Tobirama can attack his own clone and finish Hiruzen quickly


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 14, 2015)

> We saw that he was not around Narudo, and we know for a fact that Obito destroyed him far away
> from his as well. As when Obito released the Tree everyone was OUTSIDE of the barrier
> beside Narudo, Minato, Tobirama, Asspulldara, and Hashirama



We dont know if he was, or wasnt near him. That's the point.  Hiruzen had enough time to regenerate and come to the battlefield. 



> Because it was active before, during, and after the event. You're the one who needs to prove otherwise. Pff
> 
> What the hell does the branches have to do with sensing Hiruzen? He was able to sense Narudo.



You dont know if it was active all that time. He used his sensing abilities, yes, but that doesnt mean his sensing abilities were on all the time.

They are full of chakra. A shinobi sensor = a shinobi who can sense chakra. And yes - he was able to sense Naruto. However, it was useless. Why? Maybe because there were lots of branches to decieve his sensing?



> Tell that to Tobirama who got defeated.
> They defeated him twice.
> 
> He is a native JP speaker, and well-known here to be a trustworthy.



And we dont know how they did that.

Alright, i believe that. That doesnt change much anyway.



> You lack the basic understanding of the manga sweetheart. If we follow you logic
> Tsunade and Suigetsu will also be faster and has better reaction that the Raikage.
> 
> and this example with Hiruzen being faster than Tobirama and so on.
> ...



Not realy? It seems you lack the basic understanding of the feats mechanics, my friend. 

That is not example of Hiruzen being faster than Tobirama because we dont know if Hiruzen was, or wasnt near Naruto at that moment.

Lots of those could be easily written in a smart way, you know. A good author can avoid stupidity in his masterpiece. So... that is just your opinion. Your opinion is not canon. Tobirama's Shunshin being faster than KCM Minato's movement speed is canon. It is in the manga. I think we are done here.


----------



## StarWanderer (Dec 14, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> If Hiruzen is allowed full arsenal here via hype/DB and is in prime condition somewhat similar to his edo version he has a decent chance here. Tobirama isn't fast enough to shushin blitz Hiruzen at this distance, and his FTG isn't as efficient as Minato's. Hiruzen can easily do some doton trickery to eliminate LOS and begin his fuckery.
> A.) I don't know why people are acting like his reaction/close range movement speed will be eclipsed. He dodged Obito's intial headshot at him and took just a shoulder wound which was impressive, he kept up with the other Kage Shushining across miles to get to the battlefield (only Minato was hyped as significantly ahead), and even back in his old age he could keep up with the taijutsu of both Tobirama and Hiruzen and even tagged them faster than Orochimaru could see in a way similar to how Tobirama tagged Juubito.
> B.) Extreme elemental mastery across the board, access to dozens of supplementary jutsu like sensing, clones, Summon, and Genjutsu make this a tough match for Tobirama. Hiruzen should be able to affect the environment in a major way using 	Magen: Kokoni Arazu no Jutsu for instance. That can come in handy when you have someone who can make 4 clones and blast you with each element.
> C.) If Hiruzen realizes he's gonna lose and feels salty enough Tobirama really has no counter to Shiki Fujin except killing Hiruzen faster than he can summon it.
> ...



Dude, Tobirama's Shunshin was faster than KCM Minato's movement speed and he managed to mark Juubito.

Hiruzen is hyped by canon sources, but his feats, his speed showings? They are not even remotively close to those of Tobirama. Judging from feats, Tobirama can speedblitz him without any problem.


----------



## Bonly (Dec 14, 2015)

Prime Hiruzen likely waxes Tobi's ass due to his hype


----------



## Senjuclan (Dec 14, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Prime Hiruzen likely waxes Tobi's ass due to his hype



That hype was invalidated. Hiruzen is undoubtedly weaker than Hashirama. As such, the hype that he was the strongest hokage is no longer valid ... Plus even with all the jutsus in Konoha, excluding kekkei genkai, he still loses to Tobirama because he can't deal with edo tensei + hiraishin


----------



## Bonly (Dec 14, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> That hype was invalidated. Hiruzen is undoubtedly weaker than Hashirama. As such, the hype that he was the strongest hokage is no longer valid ... Plus even with all the jutsus in Konoha, excluding kekkei genkai, he still loses to Tobirama because he can't deal with edo tensei + hiraishin



You can think it's invalidated if you want but I don't have much of a reason to think Tobi is stronger then Prime Hiruzen so yeah


----------



## Senjuclan (Dec 14, 2015)

Bonly said:


> You can think it's invalidated if you want but I don't have much of a reason to think Tobi is stronger then Prime Hiruzen so yeah



 Tobirama with edo tensei and hiraishin simply outclasses Hiruzen even if we gave him all the non kkgk and non summon based jutsus in Konoha


----------



## Bonly (Dec 14, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> Tobirama with edo tensei and hiraishin simply outclasses Hiruzen even if we gave him all the non kkgk and non summon based jutsus in Konoha



Apparently not since the Databook says that Hiruzen had more potential and if Tobi was almost killed by Kin+Ginkaku along with the Raikage one time then killed off by the bros and 18 others I don't those two jutsu alone being able to outclass Hiruzen. Besides even if we did grant Hiruzen all jutsu used by Konoha people bar the summon related jutsu and KG jutsu then Hiruzen really outclasses Tobi so yeah those two alone don't do it


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 14, 2015)

Hiruzen wins, a younger, stronger, with more stamina easily takes this in a stride. That's not to say that Tobirama is a slouch or anything but I just hold Hiruzen at a higher level, since he learned from both of them. His prime version is this manga's Prime Whitebeard, no way anyone is taking that down.

Odds are he's probably the strongest Hokage figure in his prime, short of perhaps just Naruto.


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 14, 2015)

Correct me if im wrong but the databook does not mention anything about Hiruzen being the strongest. I believe it mentions he " had more talent". 
Which means nothing when manga feats indicate that Tobirama is easily stronger then him. Tobirama should have no problems destroying Hiruzen


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## Senjuclan (Dec 15, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Apparently not since the Databook says that Hiruzen had more potential and if Tobi was almost killed by Kin+Ginkaku along with the Raikage one time then killed off by the bros and 18 others I don't those two jutsu alone being able to outclass Hiruzen. Besides even if we did grant Hiruzen all jutsu used by Konoha people bar the summon related jutsu and KG jutsu then Hiruzen really outclasses Tobi so yeah those two alone don't do it



1. Potential unrealized remains just that. Kakashi has more potential than Naruto but Naruto is stronger
2. Actually Tobirama only fought the kin-gin brothers one time. It was 20 vs 1
3. Kin-gin have kyunbi chakra, the same kyuubi that Hiruzen with the help of the entire village was unable to defeat or contain
4. Name a few Justus from Konoha that a hokage class ninja will not just laugh at 
I


Ryuzaki said:


> Hiruzen wins, a younger, stronger, with more stamina easily takes this in a stride. That's not to say that Tobirama is a slouch or anything but I just hold Hiruzen at a higher level, since he learned from both of them. His prime version is this manga's Prime Whitebeard, no way anyone is taking that down.
> 
> Odds are he's probably the strongest Hokage figure in his prime, short of perhaps just Naruto.



Learning from someone does not mean you become stronger. According to you Hiruzen is the strongest hokage and yet Tsunade learned from him but you somehow think he was stronger than her

Hiruzen is not stronger than Hashirama that was made really clear in the manga


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 15, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> Learning from someone does not mean you become stronger. According to you Hiruzen is the strongest hokage and yet Tsunade learned from him but you somehow think he was stronger than her
> 
> Hiruzen is not stronger than Hashirama that was made really clear in the manga



Yeah but he knew every single technique in the village, that literally puts him on another level. Sure, he didn't portray anything remotely close to that, but as it stands, he's easily stronger than the hokage versions of Tobirama, Minato, Hokage Kakashi, Tsunade. He could potentially tie with Hashirama but based on his hype, he's above all except Hokage Naruto.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 15, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah but he knew every single technique in the village, that literally puts him on another level. Sure, he didn't portray anything remotely close to that, but as it stands, he's easily stronger than the hokage versions of Tobirama, Minato, Hokage Kakashi, Tsunade. He could potentially tie with Hashirama but based on his hype, he's above all except Hokage Naruto.



1. Except he did not know every jutsu in the leaf. He did not know kekkei genkai, jutsu combos with summons he does not have a contract with, he did not know hiraishin, he did not know edo tensei, he did not know sage mode; etc.
2. Can you name some jutsus from Konoha that would make him stronger than Tobirama
3. Dude if ythe u were paying attention when they were raised, Kishi made it clear that Hashirama was the strongest hokage. He retconned the shinobi god title to give it to shodai. Orochimaru said Hashirama was different from the others, he could stop edo tensei bind whenever he wanted. Hiruzen tried to resist edo tense I and failed miserably. Then when Kishi needed to establish Juubito strength, he compared him to Hashirama.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 15, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Except he did not know every jutsu in the leaf. He did not know kekkei genkai, jutsu combos with summons he does not have a contract with, he did not know hiraishin, he did not know edo tensei, he did not know sage mode; etc.


Hiruzen was a product of both Hashirama/Tobirama, he's easily the strongest based on hype, you can't argue that. Obviously, Hiruzen can't learn kekkai genkai don't be ridiculous, every jutsu that can be taught in Konoha, Hiruzen either knew about entirely or could master.



Senjuclan said:


> 2. Can you name some jutsus from Konoha that would make him stronger than Tobirama


Hiruzen makes 3 clones uses, Shikamaru's shadow jutsu to entrap him and then uses Yamanaka's mind jutsu to swap places and then uses Chouji's size jutsu to step on him and kill him. Hiruzen's clone disappears when that happens 


Senjuclan said:


> 3. Dude if ythe u were paying attention when they were raised, Kishi made it clear that Hashirama was the strongest hokage. He retconned the shinobi god title to give it to shodai. Orochimaru said Hashirama was different from the others, he could stop edo tensei bind whenever he wanted. Hiruzen tried to resist edo tense I and failed miserably. Then when Kishi needed to establish Juubito strength, he compared him to Hashirama.


Hashirama was the strongest of his time, but that was about it. He's not stronger than Hokage Naruto, nor Sasuke, nor DMS Kakashi. Plus, based on the hype for Prime Hiruzen, I'd say he's either stronger than or equal in strength to Hashirama. Tobirama gets skull-fucked by Prime Hiruzen.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 15, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Hiruzen was a product of both Hashirama/Tobirama, he's easily the strongest based on hype, you can't argue that. Obviously, Hiruzen can't learn kekkai genkai don't be ridiculous, every jutsu that can be taught in Konoha, Hiruzen either knew about entirely or could master.
> 
> Hiruzen makes 3 clones uses, Shikamaru's shadow jutsu to entrap him and then uses Yamanaka's mind jutsu to swap places and then uses Chouji's size jutsu to step on him and kill him. Hiruzen's clone disappears when that happens
> 
> Hashirama was the strongest of his time, but that was about it. He's not stronger than Hokage Naruto, nor Sasuke, nor DMS Kakashi. Plus, based on the hype for Prime Hiruzen, I'd say he's either stronger than or equal in strength to Hashirama. Tobirama gets skull-fucked by Prime Hiruzen.



1. Don't just repeat the same argument ... Being someone's student does not mean you become stronger 
2. You are the one being ridiculous. I gave you a long list of Justus he could not use 
3. Your example makes zero sense. If he uses the Yamanaka jutsu, his body will fall to the ground and he won't be able to move. Furthermore, Tobirama can simply evade the shadow binding with hiraishin making the whole combo pointless. 
4. Hiruzen said it was rude to say Obito was stronger than Hashirama. 
5. The hype about prime Hiruzen has been retconned. He lost the shinobi God title. He can't use all jutus in Konoha and Hashirama was said to be the only person strong enough to match Madara


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## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 15, 2015)

Hiruzen was retconned. I don't even see his prime self defeating Tobirama, though it's fair to say that he might be able to give high-diff.


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## Bonly (Dec 15, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Potential unrealized remains just that. Kakashi has more potential than Naruto but Naruto is stronger



Nothing hints that Hiruzen didn't realize that potential unless you can show me where it's stated that he failed to in his prime and no Kakashi doesn't have more potential then Naruto lol.



> 2. Actually Tobirama only fought the kin-gin brothers one time. It was 20 vs 1



Well no shit sherlock, that's why I mentioned him almost dying to the duo once along with another Kage then mentioned him dying against them and 18 others.



> 3. Kin-gin have kyunbi chakra, the same kyuubi that Hiruzen with the help of the entire village was unable to defeat or contain



That's neat but having some of it's chakra doesn't equal the whole entire thing which Hiruzen who was still an old man had dealt with so not sure where you're going with that but hey didn't Kinkaku use some of Kurama's chakra as an Edo and end up getting beat shortly after Ino-Shika-Cho popped up on the battle field along with help from fodder?  



> 4. Name a few Justus from Konoha that a hokage class ninja will not just laugh at



Whether a Hokage class ninja would laugh at the individual jutsu themselves or not is irrelevant, it's the entire package which makes Hiruzen better then Tobi with those two jutsu and if you look at Hiruzen's entire package then yeah he outclasses Tobi with those two jutsu


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## Senjuclan (Dec 15, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Nothing hints that Hiruzen didn't realize that potential unless you can show me where it's stated that he failed to in his prime and no Kakashi doesn't have more potential then Naruto lol.



1. Potential is latent abilities that can be developed in the future. Kakashi had more latent abilities than Naruto. He was smarter, better tactician, more creative when it came to generating jutsus. Give Kakashi an Uzumaki body and the kyuubi and he would be stronger than Naruto
2. The reason I don't think Hiruzen's potential translated to strength is his showing. His showing was always poor. He got blitzed by Orochimaru and had his ANBU killed during his prime. He could not stop the kyuubi during his prime. He contributed the least of all the hokage during the final battle. Put Tobirama in the same positions and he does better than Hiruzen. There is no way, slow ass Orochimaru blitzes him and wounds his guards. He would have easily taken the kyuubi out of the village and saved many lives and he performed better than Hiruzen during the  war



Bonly said:


> Well no shit sherlock, that's why I mentioned him almost dying to the duo once along with another Kage then mentioned him dying against them and 18 others.



Nope you are making it up. He never fought them twice!! He fought them ONCE and still they did not kill him. That's the one and only time



Bonly said:


> That's neat but having some of it's chakra doesn't equal the whole entire thing which Hiruzen who was still an old man had dealt with so not sure where you're going with that but hey didn't Kinkaku use some of Kurama's chakra as an Edo and end up getting beat shortly after Ino-Shika-Cho popped up on the battle field along with help from fodder?



1. Show me the scan of Hiruzen dealing with the kyuubi please. The kyuubi killed hundreds of shinobis. They kept encouraging shinobis to die until Minato could return. Hiruzen himself was waiting for Minato to come back so he could handle the kyuubi
2. Hiruzen was 56 when the kyuubi attacked. The same age as Jiraiya and Tsunade so not exactly an old man. That is his prime. The manga said that 10 years before Orochimaru's attack Hiruzen did not suffer from chakra issues. The kyuubi attack was 13 years before
3. Kinkau caused the most damage to the alliance besides Madara himself. He was not defeated by in-shika-cho either. He was defeated by a combination involving the two smartest men in the narutoverse, Darui, ino-shika-cho and the rikudou sennin's treasure




Bonly said:


> Whether a Hokage class ninja would laugh at the individual jutsu themselves or not is irrelevant, it's the entire package which makes Hiruzen better then Tobi with those two jutsu and if you look at Hiruzen's entire package then yeah he outclasses Tobi with those two jutsu



Again, give me a few of these jutsus that make a ninja as a package strong enough to be high kage tier. Outside of gates, hiraishin, edo tensei, kkgk and summon based jutsus, all the other jutsus from Konoha are simply fodder


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## Trojan (Dec 15, 2015)

Tobirama fought Kin/Gin twice obviously.

1- Kin/Gin Vs Tobirama and A.

Both Kage got their asses kicked, but Tobirama was not killed.

2- Kin/Gin + 18 fodders Vs Tobirama (+his 6 students)

they knew that they were outclassed either way, so Tobirama stayed and he died in this battle.


"and died a noble death" 
which is fairly obvious as well from the set-up of making Hiruzen the Hokage as well. His students knew
that the one who's going will not servive as well. And Tobirama obviously did not return to the village and died
their from old age. lol


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## Senjuclan (Dec 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Tobirama fought Kin/Gin twice obviously.
> 
> 1- Kin/Gin Vs Tobirama and A.
> 
> ...



1. The page you provided says no such thing. It only says he fought them once and died a noble death
2. From what Tsunade said we know they did not kill him so he must have died in the village hence Orochimaru could have access to his DNA


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## Trojan (Dec 15, 2015)

We know for a fact that Kin/Gin attacked Tobirama and 2nd A according to what the 4th A said. Did you see
the 2nd A with Tobirama in the flashback? I think now.

Tsunade said he got almost killed

but we know for a fact that he was killed when he was surrounded by his students, so it was not "almost"

All those statements can only make sense if there is more than one fight. Especially with the fact that Tobirama
was already aware of their power, and knew that they have no chance.

Having multiple fights is not anything out of the ordinary. Many characters had those, and Tobirama is no exception.


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## Bonly (Dec 15, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> 2. The reason I don't think Hiruzen's potential translated to strength is his showing.



I didn't ask why you don't think Hiruzen's potential translated to his strength. He barely had a showing and most of them were as an old man, using Tobi in the same situation doesn't mean that Hiruzen in his prime was didn't reach said potential. So again if you can show where it's stated in the manga or the Db that Hiruzen didn't reach said potential then I'll concede but if not then I have no reason to think otherwise.



> 1. Show me the scan of Hiruzen dealing with the kyuubi please. The kyuubi killed hundreds of shinobis. They kept encouraging shinobis to die until Minato could return. Hiruzen himself was waiting for Minato to come back so he could handle the kyuubi



You are not five years old and I'm not about to hold your hand. You've read the manga so you know Hiruzen and some fodder managed to deal with Kurama and get him outside the village, look up the scan yourself.



> 2. Hiruzen was 56 when the kyuubi attacked. The same age as Jiraiya and Tsunade so not exactly an old man. That is his prime. The manga said that 10 years before Orochimaru's attack Hiruzen did not suffer from chakra issues. The kyuubi attack was 13 years before



Not exactly old my ass, dude is 50 something years old, that's old just like the Sannin. Tsunade who was in her 50's was thinking how Kabuto skills might surpass here skills in her prime and I'm pretty sure she wasn't thinking of her current self so being at that age might not mean they are in their prime. 



> 3. Kinkau caused the most damage to the alliance besides Madara himself. He was not defeated by in-shika-cho either. He was defeated by a combination involving the two smartest men in the narutoverse, Darui, ino-shika-cho and the rikudou sennin's treasure



"end up getting *beat shortly after* Ino-Shika-Cho popped up on the battle field along with help from fodder"

So in otherwords you're saying that he did get beat shortly after like I said?




> Again, give me a few of these jutsus that make a ninja as a package strong enough to be high kage tier. Outside of gates, hiraishin, edo tensei, kkgk and summon based jutsus, *all the other jutsus from Konoha are simply fodder*



Look up the jutsu yourself you should know which jutsu have been used by Konoha ninja from Asuma to Ino-Shika-Cho's clans to Kakashi to Kurenai to Danzo to Shino's clan to quite a bit mote


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## Ghoztly (Dec 15, 2015)

Gotta love how people argue against official statements.

Hiruzen was stated to be the strongest Kage in his prime. Unless it was retconned somewhere that statement is still true on logic alone. There is no use in arguing this or trying to work your way around it.

So, based on that statement Hiruzen would wreck him.


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## Trojan (Dec 15, 2015)

They ignore Hiruzen's hype because they have never seen prime Hiruzen, but God knows how, they somehow managed to know how powerful/weak he was. 

and retconned to Hashirama whom has 0 statement about him being the strongest Hokage or whatnot.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> They ignore Hiruzen's hype because they have never seen prime Hiruzen, but God knows how, they somehow managed to know how powerful/weak he was.
> 
> and retconned to Hashirama whom has 0 statement about him being the strongest Hokage or whatnot.



One statement of Hashirama being the only one who can defeat Madara from Dan, and one statement from Kabuto that Hashirama was compared to SoSP by those who heared about his power. Hashirama >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hiruzen, prime or not. Canon.

The first Databook, the main source of Hiruzen's hype, has been outdated. The same can be said about another 2 Databooks. Is there any statement about Hiruzens superiority to all other Hokage in the 4th Databook?


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## Trojan (Dec 15, 2015)

That's pretty idiotic. 

Also, Hiruzen hype directly state that he is stronger than Hashirama.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> That's pretty idiotic.
> 
> Also, Hiruzen hype directly state that he is stronger than Hashirama.



If Hiruzen, according to manga, cant defeat Madara, than he has nothing on Hashirama, who is basicly the same Madara, but better in everything, except EMS precognition, which he doesnt have in his arsenal. Also, Hashirama had a lot better hype. Hiruzen was praised as the strongest hokage? Hashirama has been compared with Rikudou Sennin. 

The First 3 Databooks have lots of inconsistencies with manga and Fourth Databook. They have been outdated.

Show me a statement from the Fourth Databook that prime Hiruzen was the strongest hokage in history prior to Naruto. I'll wait.


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## Trojan (Dec 15, 2015)

you are still continuing with your idiotic reasoning? 
I guess Gai also can't defeat madara, or heck, neither Kabuto nor Dan said Hagoromo, Kaguya, Hamura...etc
can defeat Madara. Oh, did they mention that Zetsu can kill madara unlike Hashirama? 



> The First 3 Databooks have lots of inconsistencies with manga and Fourth Databook. They have been outdated.


The manga even in its latest Arc has a lot of inconsistencies with itself. I guess we should throw the manga aside as well.


> Show me a statement from the Fourth Databook that prime Hiruzen was the strongest hokage in history prior to Naruto. I'll wait.



When you show me where was Hashirama ever been called the strongest Hokage.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 15, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Don't just repeat the same argument ... Being someone's student does not mean you become stronger
> 2. You are the one being ridiculous. I gave you a long list of Justus he could not use
> 3. Your example makes zero sense. If he uses the Yamanaka jutsu, his body will fall to the ground and he won't be able to move. Furthermore, Tobirama can simply evade the shadow binding with hiraishin making the whole combo pointless.
> 4. Hiruzen said it was rude to say Obito was stronger than Hashirama.
> 5. The hype about prime Hiruzen has been retconned. He lost the shinobi God title. He can't use all jutus in Konoha and Hashirama was said to be the only person strong enough to match Madara


You mean his clone will fall down and his clone would be useless.


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## ~M~ (Dec 15, 2015)

A > B > C fallacy here with the Madara vs Hashirama debate. 

Madara is within Hiruzen's range.


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> That's pretty idiotic.
> 
> Also, Hiruzen hype directly state that he is stronger than Hashirama.


You know it make a great deal of sense here too, especially if you replace Tsunade with Hiruzen in their Gokage fight against Madara, I could see the Gokage winning. If Hashirama wasn't revived by ET, I could easily see Kishimoto writing Hiruzen in as his competitor.

Could you imagine a combination of Prime Oonoki and Prime Hiruzen?


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## Trojan (Dec 15, 2015)

Kishi will find a way, he is madara's d sucker.
He even made that garbage of a character return in his prime unlike all the other characters.
He somehow did the Izanagi even tho he lacks Senji's DNA, and even worst he was able to restore his eye
even tho it should have been stayed blind forever... and so on. 

I still wonder why did not Onoki fire that jinton and then directed it upward to erase what left of the Susanoo.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> We know for a fact that Kin/Gin attacked Tobirama and 2nd A according to what the 4th A said. Did you see
> the 2nd A with Tobirama in the flashback? I think now.
> 
> Tsunade said he got almost killed
> ...



We saw that the hokage was surrounded with many of his disciples and they seemed to have been traveling. Since Orochimaru had his DNA, it only makes sense that he died in the village. If he died in the village, then Tsunade's statement makes sense. They almost killed him but he escaped and died in the village where Orochimaru could get his DNA. That makes it one fight



Bonly said:


> I didn't ask why you don't think Hiruzen's potential translated to his strength. He barely had a showing and most of them were as an old man, using Tobi in the same situation doesn't mean that Hiruzen in his prime was didn't reach said potential. So again if you can show where it's stated in the manga or the Db that Hiruzen didn't reach said potential then I'll concede but if not then I have no reason to think otherwise.



1. You are the one saying that he became stronger because he had more potential. The burden of proof is on you not me. I can only gauge strength not potentia
2. When he fought the kyuubi he was in his prime



Bonly said:


> You are not five years old and I'm not about to hold your hand. You've read the manga so you know Hiruzen and some fodder managed to deal with Kurama and get him outside the village, look up the scan yourself.



Actually you know you are wrong that is why you don't want to bring up the scan. Hiruzen with the ENTIRE village did not contain the kyuubi and it killed hundreds of shinobis and they were all waiting for Minato to come back and deal with kyuubi. You stated that Hiruzen dealt with kyuubi, that never happened in the manga



Bonly said:


> Not exactly old my ass, dude is 50 something years old, that's old just like the Sannin. Tsunade who was in her 50's was thinking how Kabuto skills might surpass here skills in her prime and I'm pretty sure she wasn't thinking of her current self so being at that age might not mean they are in their prime.



1. Prime is when someone is strongest. Tsunade, Jiraiya, Orochimaru were all SIGNIFICANTLY stronger in their 50's than their 20 -30's
2. The manga says that Hiruzen 10 years prior to the attack had enough chakra so therefore he was in his prime



Bonly said:


> "end up getting *beat shortly after* Ino-Shika-Cho popped up on the battle field along with help from fodder"
> 
> So in otherwords you're saying that he did get beat shortly after like I said?



In other words, you are trying to ignore what I said because it invalidates your statement



Bonly said:


> Look up the jutsu yourself you should know which jutsu have been used by Konoha ninja from Asuma to Ino-Shika-Cho's clans to Kakashi to Kurenai to Danzo to Shino's clan to quite a bit mote



I know all of them. They are all fodder jutsus as I said. The only ones that are not, Hiruzen can't use



Hussain said:


> They ignore Hiruzen's hype because they have never seen prime Hiruzen, but God knows how, they somehow managed to know how powerful/weak he was.
> 
> and retconned to Hashirama whom has 0 statement about him being the strongest Hokage or whatnot.



We have seen prime Hiruzen. We saw get his ass kicked by Orochimaru when he left the village



Ryuzaki said:


> You mean his clone will fall down and his clone would be useless.





Clones do not have a separate consciousness. Once you leave your body, your clones will fall too because the caster has one consciousness


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 15, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> Clones do not have a separate consciousness. Once you leave your body, your clones will fall too because the caster has one consciousness



prove it.


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## Trojan (Dec 15, 2015)

> We saw that the hokage was surrounded with many of his disciples and they seemed to have been traveling. Since Orochimaru had his DNA, it only makes sense that he died in the village. If he died in the village, then Tsunade's statement makes sense. They almost killed him but he escaped and died in the village where Orochimaru could get his DNA. That makes it one fight


What does having his DNA have to do with him being in the village especially that Oro was outside?
Kabuto also had a lot of DNA for a lot of the characters from different villages, that does not mean they are all
Konoha's Shinobi. In addition, having his dead body in the village does not even that he died there. They could have simply taken his body back. Just like the place where Tobirama buried Madara's "body" is not the VOTE where he was defeated.

- No, Tsunade statement does make sense if it's 2 battles. On the other hand, it does not make sense to say that
he "sacrificed himself and died a noble death" if he did not die to begin with. 



> We have seen prime Hiruzen. We saw get his ass kicked by Orochimaru when he left the village



Not attacking Oro and letting him escape is now getting his ass kicked? Please.  

Prime Hiruzen is the one who was teaching the Sannin, we have never seen him in a battle.


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## Big Mom (Dec 15, 2015)

Hiruzen should pull this out with high difficulties. A Hokage is still a Hokage, so he will still have his difficulties. Tobirama is a master ninja, with mastery over water release and the thunder god technique. However, at his disposal, Hiruzen brings to the table a mastery over all 5 elements as well as a large range of other techniques. 

Both ninjas have the ability to summon clones, though I think the advantage there goes to Hiruzen whos clones are able to each manipulate all 5 elements, as opposed to Tobirama's who can only use the water release. 

This match comes down to Hiruzen's versatlity and if Tobirama can counter that, which I don't believe he can. Hiruzen can use Enma for superior taijutsu and to increase his numbers, as well as his clones and mastery of all 5 elements. Hiruzen is too versatile for Tobirama to counter. Tobirama certainly loses if this match continues in long range, however, he may have a slight advantage in close range due to his tags and thunder god technique. But, once again, Hiruzen has access to Enma (staff or regular form) which increases his overall strength in close range. Keep in mind how Old Hiruzen was able to wield Enma staff quite well, imagine Prime Hiruzen. 

Unfortunately, I believe only one Hokage can potential match and stand up to Hiruzen's versatlity and that is Hashirama. And even that is debatable.

Hiruzen Mid-High Difficulty.


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## Arles Celes (Dec 15, 2015)

Part 1 Hiruzen would stomp Tobirama based on hype.

Though his performance in this war even as a zombie with an unending chakra supply was lacking and Hirashin is tricky to deal with.

Had Hiruzen been hyped as a taijutsu/speed demon in his prime with that being his main strength then it would be easy to justify Hiruzen's lack of impressive stuff in this war.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> you are still continuing with your idiotic reasoning?
> I guess Gai also can't defeat madara, or heck, neither Kabuto nor Dan said Hagoromo, Kaguya, Hamura...etc
> can defeat Madara. Oh, did they mention that Zetsu can kill madara unlike Hashirama?
> 
> ...



Gai cant defeat Madara, because he gets killed before 8th Gate's activation. The others were not in the story, you know. *Among shinobi*, only Hashirama could defeat Madara. And Dan was right about that.

Such as? Anyway, it is the manga - the main canon source of Narutoverse. Databook is not a part of the manga. 

Hashirama was the only shinobi capable of defeating Madara. And, according to feats, he beats any Hokage bar Rikudou Naruto.


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## Kushina san (Dec 15, 2015)

By Hype, Hiruzen...by feats, Tobirama stomps.


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## Trojan (Dec 15, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Gai cant defeat Madara, because he gets killed before 8th Gate's activation. The others were not in the story, you know. *Among shinobi*, only Hashirama could defeat Madara. And Dan was right about that.
> 
> Such as? Anyway, it is the manga - the main canon source of Narutoverse. Databook is not a part of the manga.
> 
> Hashirama was the only shinobi capable of defeating Madara. And, according to feats, he beats any Hokage bar Rikudou Naruto.




- May God help your soul. 
> Gai did not get killed against JJ SM Rinnegan Madara, he will be against EMS Madara. 

- Yes, they were since before Pain Arc when Jiraiya talked about the sage to nagato.



> Such as? Anyway, it is the manga - the main canon source of Narutoverse. Databook is not a part of the manga.


Zetsu was made of Hashirama's cells and then it was retconned to be people from Kaguya's time.
Black Zetsu was Madara's will, and then was changed to be Kaguya's
Kushina said even resealing Kurama inside of her will still kill her, and yet it worked with Naruto.

and so on.
The Databook is a canon source, so stop being desperate. Not to mention, even in the manga
Hiruzen was stated to be the strongest anyway. 


Well, good thing it's not about madara. Only fools will apply A>B>C flawed logic.


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## Itachi san88 (Dec 15, 2015)

> When you show me where was Hashirama ever been called the strongest Hokage


Is called "the strongest ninja". Better.

However, from what we saw in the manga, Hiruzen can not beat Tobirama...There is only the hype, but for me it is not enough


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## Bonly (Dec 15, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Prime is when someone is strongest. Tsunade, Jiraiya, Orochimaru were all SIGNIFICANTLY stronger in their 50's than their 20 -30's



Manga outright has Tsunade thinking about her prime which isn't her current self. I'll take the manga suggest she's not at her prime compared to your opinion.



> 2. The manga says that Hiruzen 10 years prior to the attack had enough chakra so therefore he was in his prime



That doesn't mean he was at his prime, that just means he had more chakra.



> In other words, you are trying to ignore what I said because it invalidates your statement



So in others you ignored that what I said was a fact because you don't like it?



> I know all of them. They are all fodder jutsus as I said. The only ones that are not, Hiruzen can't use



If you know of them then you're just being narrow minded if you think all of those jutsu combined along with being used through clones and the endless possibilities are fodder compared to Tobi's two jutsu but I expected it hence why I didn't waste my time listing them as you obviously have no interest in changing your mind.


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 15, 2015)

This is fucking ridiculous that people can not understand how to interpret the databook & manga. You know how many hundreds of things have been retconnned to hell from both the manga and databook over the years. This is nothing different

Let's see:
1) Mentioned as the "God of Shinobi"....So was Hashirama
2) Was mentioned as the strongest Hokage in Konohas history...Would be fine and dandy if Tobirama, Minato and especially Hashirama didn't shit all of his feats
3) Knew every jutsu in konoha.....not even close
4) Databook does not even mention him being superior to Tobirama. I believe the true translation is "had more potential". Had more potential does not equal being superior
5) During the JJ Obitio battle tobirama had superior analytic skills, and overall the better showing by a shit ton

Feats> Hashirama & Tobirama & Minato > Sarutobi by a landslide
Hype > Hahsirama shares the same title

Just the tip of the iceberg...


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## Senjuclan (Dec 15, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> prove it.



If clones had a consciousness they would fall to genjutsu



Hussain said:


> What does having his DNA have to do with him being in the village especially that Oro was outside?
> Kabuto also had a lot of DNA for a lot of the characters from different villages, that does not mean they are all
> Konoha's Shinobi. In addition, having his dead body in the village does not even that he died there. They could have simply taken his body back. Just like the place where Tobirama buried Madara's "body" is not the VOTE where he was defeated.
> 
> ...



1. If the Kin-Gin brothers had simply killed Tobirama why would his own grand niece refer to a separate incident when she was alive at the time of his death. She would have simply said they killed him. The fact that she responded to A by saying they left him on the verge of death means that is the only incident she knows
2. Dying a noble death after the battle is the only conclusion that is logical otherwise Tsunade's statement makes no sense when she knew he was killed
3. Hiruzen got blitzed by Orochimaru. Then Orochimaru wounded his ANBU. The databook says that Hiruzen cared about the members of the village as his own family. He could not just let them be injured for fun
4. How do you come to the conclusion that prime Hiruzen is late 20's Hiruzen? EVERY ninja we have seen is stronger in their 40's and 50's than in their 20's


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## Senjuclan (Dec 15, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Manga outright has Tsunade thinking about her prime which isn't her current self. I'll take the manga suggest she's not at her prime compared to your opinion.



Tsunade was a professional gambler no longer a professional ninja. She was out of her prime = time of best possible fighting strength. The minute she became a ninja again, she became even stronger. 50 year wold Tsunade would destroy 20 year old Tsunade. Prime has nothing to do with age for ninjas but accumulated experienced and jutsus before they start physically declining



Bonly said:


> That doesn't mean he was at his prime, that just means he had more chakra.



One's prime is when one is strongest. One is strongest when one has the most jutsu and experience and one has not started physically declining. 50 year old Jiraiya is prime Jiraiya. Younger Jiraiya without sage mode and experience is weaker than 50 year old Jiraiya. Same for Tsunade. Same for Orochimaru. 



Bonly said:


> So in others you ignored that what I said was a fact because you don't like it?



I responded to you. Go back and check it. Here was the sequence:

1. You stated that he was defeated by Ino-shika-chou
2. I countered that he was not and gave a list of other participants
3. You never responded and went back to pretending that you did not see my post



Bonly said:


> If you know of them then you're just being narrow minded if you think all of those jutsu combined along with being used through clones and the endless possibilities are fodder compared to Tobi's two jutsu but I expected it hence why I didn't waste my time listing them as you obviously have no interest in changing your mind.



In other words you can't present a valid argument to counter mine. All those jutsus are fodder level justsus. Clones can be countered with other clones and he who has more chakra wins out in the game of tajuu kage bunshin. Hiruzen can't even use Chouji's clan jutsus because he does not have extra calories to burn. Yamanaka jutsus are useless because he is fighting alone. Kiba's clan jutsus are fodder. Really that leaves only bugs and shadow binding. However, even assuming he could use those, they are not much help against a kage class ninja. All the genjutsu in Konoha is useless against clones and sensing.


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## Bonly (Dec 15, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> One's prime is when one is strongest. One is strongest when one has the most jutsu and experience and one has not started physically declining. 50 year old Jiraiya is prime Jiraiya. Younger Jiraiya without sage mode and experience is weaker than 50 year old Jiraiya. Same for Tsunade. Same for Orochimaru.



Physical stats are also include and if one is physically not as good then they aren't in their prime also you don't know how old Jiraiya was when he got SM so yeah can't say his younger version didn't have it, ect.



> I responded to you. Go back and check it. Here was the sequence:
> 
> 1. You stated that he was defeated by Ino-shika-chou



You need to work on your reading comprehension. I said "end up getting beat shortly after Ino-Shika-Cho popped up on the battle field *along with help from fodder*"

How you got that I'm implying it was only them who beat him is beyond me when I clearly mention their was others. So no you go back and check it and try again.



> In other words you can't present a valid argument to counter mine.



I can it's just that you're to narrow minded for me to waste my time because you don't understand the point. I mean look at your post, I mention clones and the only thing you mention is how other clones matches up as if that's the only value behind clones. You say that Yamanaka's jutsu is useless because it's a solo fight. Like how stupid is that lol. Clones can use the same jutsu Hiruzen so that means that Hiruzen and himself can use the Yamanaka's jutsu. We've seen Ino snipe Kinkaku when he was distracted, we've seen Ino snipe Obito not once but twice when distracted and not focused only on her. If an enemy is distracted then the Yamanaka's jutsu is very dangerous and if Hiruzen has a handful or two of clones and they're attacking and keeping up the pressure then that leaves Hiruzen or a clone to sit back ready to do some sniping while the enemy is distracted thus making it not unless.

And yet you say that said jutsu is useless and that clones will only be counter by clones as if that's it upon which is false. That alone shows yet again that you're only looking at the jutsu on an individually level rather then the package as a whole and all of the possible combinations that can be used and that's not even including all the other jutsu and there usefulness and possible combos. So it's not a case that I can't present a valid argument to counter yours it's just that I don't care to since I know that you're to narrow minded to look at the bigger picture. Once you're able to see the forest and not just some tree, we can talk


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 15, 2015)

I don't understand people hyping up Hiruzen.

The moment his whole '_strongest Hokage in history_' shtick was retconned, so was his relative standing to every other Kage retconned as well, not just Hashirama. He doesn't suddenly become second-place, that *entire piece of hyperbole* is rid of validity. Null. Nada. Zero. You don't interpret that as, '_oh well, okay, he's second strongest then_!' The only hype he's left with is the '_knows all jutsu in Konoha_', but that's only somewhat better and around as quantifiable as Kakashi knowing 1000 jutsu.

And guess what. No one gives a _shit_ about Kakashi knowing 1000 jutsu.

Hiruzen taking on Orochimaru and a couple of drastically weakened Edo Tensei, then matching Guruguru's untested elemental techniques don't scream to me, high-Kage tier as Tobirama is. He is _absolutely_ gutter-tier Kage as far as feats go, and the moment Part 2 came his one relevant piece of hype vanished. I've no idea how o  why people fabricate this guy to be some top-tier Kage right under Hashirama's level, because it is completely unfounded. Baseless on the level of fucking Bigfoot sightings, you guys seriously just made that shit up.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 15, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Physical stats are also include and if one is physically not as good then they aren't in their prime



Should I quote myself?

One is strongest when one has the most jutsu and experience *and one has not started physically declining.
*



Bonly said:


> also you don't know how old Jiraiya was when he got SM so yeah can't say his younger version didn't have it, ect.



I do know it was after the war with Hanzou since we saw a flashback of him training at myobokuzan and he was significantly older



Bonly said:


> You need to work on your reading comprehension. I said "end up getting beat shortly after Ino-Shika-Cho popped up on the battle field *along with help from fodder*"



Except they were not helped by fodder so you need to work on your argumentation. I corrected your ass



Bonly said:


> How you got that I'm implying it was only them who beat him is beyond me when I clearly mention their was others. So no you go back and check it and try again.



You claimed it was them and fodder. I showed you it was not. Stop pretending otherwise



Bonly said:


> I can it's just that you're to narrow minded for me to waste my time because you don't understand the point. I mean look at your post, I mention clones and the only thing you mention is how other clones matches up as if that's the only value behind clones. You say that Yamanaka's jutsu is useless because it's a solo fight. Like how stupid is that lol. Clones can use the same jutsu Hiruzen so that means that Hiruzen and himself can use the Yamanaka's jutsu. We've seen Ino snipe Kinkaku when he was distracted, we've seen Ino snipe Obito not once but twice when distracted and not focused only on her.



1. Usually before I call people stupid, I make sure my argument is not stupid because otherwise I end up looking really stupid. So, let me go ahead and make you look super stupid
2. Yamanaka clan can't be used in conjunction with clones because it shoots the user's consciousness. The user has but one consciousness. Shadow clones do not create a second one. That is why clones can't be put under genjutsu. The Yamanaka clan jutsu would be utterly useless
3. To help you understand the obvious, I will restate it. Tajuu kage bunshin against another user of tajuu kage bunshin won't yield an advantage because the two techniques cancel one another out unless one user has significantly more chakra and can create more clones. 



Bonly said:


> If an enemy is distracted then the Yamanaka's jutsu is very dangerous and if Hiruzen has a handful or two of clones and they're attacking and keeping up the pressure then that leaves Hiruzen or a clone to sit back ready to do some sniping while the enemy is distracted thus making it not unless.



1. Once Hiruzen shoots his consciousness to Tobirama, the jutsu becomes useless
2. Tobirama is a sensor and that consciousness travels in a straight line. This is not a one on one jutsu



Bonly said:


> And yet you say that said jutsu is useless and that clones will only be counter by clones as if that's it upon which is false. That alone shows yet again that you're only looking at the jutsu on an individually level rather then the package as a whole and all of the possible combinations that can be used and that's not even including all the other jutsu and there usefulness and possible combos. So it's not a case that I can't present a valid argument to counter yours it's just that I don't care to since I know that you're to narrow minded to look at the bigger picture. Once you're able to see the forest and not just some tree, we can talk



Stop pretending to be something you are not. You are unable to construct a valid argument and present it. If you could, you would have. I followed your argument easily because it is a simple one. Clones + Yamanaka jutsu = useless because the mind of the user is now in the body of the target and the user cannot harm the target without harming himself.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Dec 15, 2015)

I wonder how hiruzen keeps up with the speed of FTG based on feats...


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 15, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I don't understand people hyping up Hiruzen.
> 
> The moment his whole '_strongest Hokage in history_' shtick was retconned, so was his relative standing to every other Kage retconned as well, not just Hashirama. He doesn't suddenly become second-place, that *entire piece of hyperbole* is rid of validity. Null. Nada. Zero. You don't interpret that as, '_oh well, okay, he's second strongest then_!' The only hype he's left with is the '_knows all jutsu in Konoha_', but that's only somewhat better and around as quantifiable as Kakashi knowing 1000 jutsu.
> 
> ...



How dare you use common sense and logic

Ban this guy!


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## Ryuzaki (Dec 15, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> If clones had a consciousness they would fall to genjutsu


Not proof, where did it in the manga say that clones couldn't use a mind-transfer jutsu? Just wondering. That's like saying Kakashi can't use the sharingan with his clone because his original body has it.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 15, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Not proof, where did it in the manga say that clones couldn't use a mind-transfer jutsu? Just wondering. That's like saying Kakashi can't use the sharingan with his clone because his original body has it.



Dude, stop being obtuse. Clones copy the body of the user not the consciousness or soul of the user. As such, Kakashi can use sharingan with clones but his mind / consciousness is a single entity and stays in the original body. When Itachi tried to genjutsu it, he could not because clones do not have a separate consciousness.


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## Dr. White (Dec 15, 2015)

Clones can't be genjutsu'd because they are not the original source brain and they are technically separate entities of consciousness as they have different experiences when alive, which doesn't go back to the root consciousness until they cease to exist.


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## FlamingRain (Dec 15, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> The moment his whole '_strongest Hokage in history_' shtick was retconned, so was his relative standing to every other Kage retconned as well, not just Hashirama.



It'd change his standing in comparison to the other Kage if and only if Hiruzen was the one retconned (de-powered) as opposed to Hashirama, _which there is no evidence of whatsoever_ because he was said to boast greater talent than Tobirama _in Part 2_.


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## Turrin (Dec 15, 2015)

I'm fairly certain Hiruzen is impossible to rate. His only major battle and stats come from a pre-powerinflation era where Mid-sized Elemental Jutsu w/o a source were considered 'Hokage Class', so I wouldn't take any of that very seriously. He got some feats in PII, but he was brought back w/ a double handicap of age and tensei weakness, and got the least amount of panel time out of the Hokage Tensei, with most of his contributions being in the off panel battle against Spiral. Beyond that he has the vague hype of knowing all Ninjutsu, Hiden Jutsu, and Genjutsu in the Leaf Village, but there is no clear indication of how far Kishimoto intends that to span; like does he know Hiraishin? Or what his proficiency with these techs are; like if he knows Hiraishin is he as good as the 3 Body Guards or can he use it individually like Minato/Tobirama. Than we have his mastery of the elemental wheel, but the vary differences in how elemental affinities work and how fusions fit into the wheel make it tough to really know how big a boon having mastery of all 5 elements is (also in part largely undermined by DBIV giving everyone and their mom many elements). 

Because of this Hiruzen could be anywhere from one of the weakest Kages to one of the strongest.


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## Senjuclan (Dec 16, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Clones can't be genjutsu'd because they are not the original source brain and they are technically separate entities of consciousness as they have different experiences when alive, which doesn't go back to the root consciousness until they cease to exist.



False! If they were separate instances of consciousness, then they should be susceptible to genjutsu themselves but the illusion would not transfer to the original source of consciousness. However, they are not susceptible to genjutsu at all. Making a clone does not create a separate mind for the user. If all it took to get around the weakness of shintenshin no jutsu was clones, the Yamanaka would have figured that out by now


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## FlamingRain (Dec 16, 2015)

Kakashi's clone was affected by the Genjutsu Shōten Itachi used.


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## Braiyan (Dec 16, 2015)

Tobirama wins, seeing that he can comfortably dodge all of Hiruzen's shown ranged attacks via Hiraishin, whilst setting up the battlefield for either a Hiraishingiri blitz, or a blindside decapitation via Suidanha.


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 16, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It'd change his standing in comparison to the other Kage if and only if Hiruzen was the one retconned (de-powered) as opposed to Hashirama, _which there is no evidence of whatsoever_ *because he was said to boast greater talent than Tobirama in Part 2*.



When?


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## Rocky (Dec 16, 2015)

During the Danzō flashback. Tobirama's portrayal was godawful prior to being revived by Edo Tensei. He got murked by Kinkaku & Ginkaku, then he fucking _died_ trying to stall twenty random ninja, despite having a skill set _tailored_ to stalling and escaping at the last moment....


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## Trojan (Dec 16, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> When?


4th Databook.


Rocky said:


> During the Danzō flashback. Tobirama's portrayal was godawful prior to being revived by Edo Tensei. He got murked by Kinkaku & Ginkaku, then he fucking _died_ trying to stall twenty random ninja, despite having a skill set _tailored_ to stalling and escaping at the last moment....



People think that because they see Minato's skills and feats and scale Tobirama's admittedly inferior/jutsu skill to him.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 16, 2015)

> - May God help your soul.
> > Gai did not get killed against JJ SM Rinnegan Madara, he will be against EMS Madara.
> 
> - Yes, they were since before Pain Arc when Jiraiya talked about the sage to nagato.



Gai got beaten by Edo Madara and admitted himself that Madara was too strong. 

Dan has never seen anyone with Rikudou's chakra. He was a shinobi from the village. Plus, i dont think Kishimoto put that in his manga just for lulz. The only *shinobi* (Rikudou, Hamura and Kaguya were not shinobi) up to that moment, capable of defeating Madara, was the first Hokage Hashirama. And it's true. Minato? Tobirama? Nagato? Obito? All of those, in 1 on 1 fight, wont be able to beat Madara. Hashirama was the strongest *shinobi* ever up to that moment.

If Hiruzen, according to canon, cannot defeat Madara, then he has no chance against Hashirama. Then, the hype about him was wrong. Then, we should pay our attention to feats. And then, well, Hiruzen dies, quickly.



> Zetsu was made of Hashirama's cells and then it was retconned to be people from Kaguya's time.
> Black Zetsu was Madara's will, and then was changed to be Kaguya's
> Kushina said even resealing Kurama inside of her will still kill her, and yet it worked with Naruto.



1. Later, it was revealed that Zetsu were not creations from Hashirama's cells. Also, Hiruzen's hype was retconned. How can he be stronger than any Hokage except Rikudou Naruto when he cant beat Madara, who couldnt beat The First Hokage Hashirama even with Kurama on his side? 
2. Yeah, cool. 
3. Naruto is not his mother.

The first 3 Databooks have been retconned. That's it. Just like some of the manga facts. I want you to show me a proof from 4th Databook that Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage in history prior to Rikudou Naruto's reign.



> and so on.
> The Databook is a canon source, so stop being desperate. Not to mention, even in the manga
> Hiruzen was stated to be the strongest anyway.



I admit that anga, along with Databooks, gets retconned. Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage ever has been retconned *in the manga*. 



> Well, good thing it's not about madara. Only fools will apply A>B>C flawed logic.



So, according to you, the A>B>C logic is foolish? Realy?


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## Senjuclan (Dec 16, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Kakashi's clone was affected by the Genjutsu Shōten Itachi used.



Re-read the manga. Itachi said the genjutsu did not work because it was a clone


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 16, 2015)

'Talent' doesn't dictate overall strength. Minato had much more 'talent' than Hashirama, guess who came out on top?  Talent only refers to how quickly one grows as a shinobi.


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## Trojan (Dec 16, 2015)

Except Minato died at the age of 24 which was stated several times in the manga to be "too early". However, Hiruzen had all the time he needed.


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## FlamingRain (Dec 16, 2015)

Senjuclan said:


> Re-read the manga. Itachi said the genjutsu did not work because it was a clone



In the manga the clone is seen noticing that it was sitting there turning into smoldering paper. It was affected.

_When Kakashi emerged_ Itachi said the Genjutsu did not work on "_'you'_," because "_'this'_ is a doppelg?nger".

That tactic did not work on Kakashi because what he hit was Kakashi's clone.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Minato had much more 'talent' than Hashirama, guess who came out on top?  Talent only refers to how quickly one grows as a shinobi.



No.

A thesaurus on talent:



> talent
> noun
> a natural talent for dancing: flair, aptitude, facility, gift, knack, technique, touch, bent, *ability*, expertise, *capacity*, faculty; *strength*, forte, genius, brilliance; dexterity, skill, artistry.



Minato having more talent than Hashirama is based on a bunch of nothing, and he also passed on much sooner at age 24. Hiruzen had more more talent than Tobirama _and_ outlived him.

Talent is definitely relevant to strength, so that claim the databook makes is still something that makes it more likely that Hiruzen was never de-powered and the one who was actually retconned was Hashirama.


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## ATastyMuffin (Dec 16, 2015)

I can go down an entire laundry list of examples. Neji was more talented than Lee ever was, but Lee was more powerful in the Chūnin Exams. The point is, if it was ever stated that Hiruzen was more 'talented' than Tobirama, it does not equate to saying he was more powerful than him overall as a shinobi. It means Hiruzen was quicker to pick up certain techniques, or had a wider arsenal.


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## FlamingRain (Dec 16, 2015)

Lee himself didn't appear to be so sure of that, and he was actually a late-bloomer type genius according to Kakashi.

I don't think Tobirama's sheer force of will was greater than Hiruzen's either.

So like I said, that claim the databook makes is still something that makes it more likely that Hiruzen was never de-powered and the one who was actually retconned was Hashirama.


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## Trojan (Dec 16, 2015)

I said that many times before, but even the hashirama wank comes from the fact that we have actually seen the strongest battle he had ON PANEL. That is the different between him and the other Hokage/Kage whom we haven't seen their battles on panel which makes it hard to appreciate their power. 

Had Kishi not shown Hashi Vs madara, we would have never known about most of his jutsu from different battles.
And too bad for the other Hokages, the only time they were given the chance was against someone who severely
outclass them, and not only that, but only few things can work against him as well.

Even tho Hiruzen's hype seem to be retconned especially after he lost relevance since the manga pretty much shifted completely, but at the same time
him being superior to Tobirama seems to be a part that remained true till the end since Kishi kept bringing it up.


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## StarWanderer (Dec 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I said that many times before, but even the hashirama wank comes from the fact that we have actually seen the strongest battle he had ON PANEL. That is the different between him and the other Hokage/Kage whom we haven't seen their battles on panel which makes it hard to appreciate their power.
> 
> Had Kishi not shown Hashi Vs madara, we would have never known about most of his jutsu from different battles.
> And too bad for the other Hokages, the only time they were given the chance was against someone who severely
> ...



Kept bringing it up? Realy?


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## TobiramaSS (Dec 17, 2015)

In terms of hype, Hiruzen.
In terms of feat, Tobirama.

In my personal opinion, Tobirama takes this easy. He beat Izuna, who was equal to Madara and at that time Madara had PS. Hiruzen Prime is as real as healthy Itachi, completely featless.


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## Language of Life (Dec 17, 2015)

What is a prime Hiruzen; and what did he do?


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