# How did Obito survive amaterasu?



## Ninja Genius (Dec 6, 2012)

Ok we all know the scene. Itachi of course thinks ahead and some how plants amaterasu in Sasuke eyes. it triggers and engulfs obito. obito survives and calls itachi a failure. but why is itachi a failure..how did he fail. now that we know how obito jutsu works and its no longer a mystery, i want to know why. amaterasu hit him and covered hus whole body. it stays on the person no matter what and doesnt burn out for awhile. obito jutsu only moves his body to another realm. so his amaterasu burning body shouldve be teleportes away but in no way should it removed the flames. so hiw did he survive?

btw plz forgive spelling punctuation etc. this was done on my phone.  k thnx bye


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Dec 6, 2012)

He probably just phased through the flames.

That doesn't make any sense. 

The flames were already on him, so how could he phase through them. Do his clothes phase through him when he goes intangible?

It was obviously Izanagi.

I really don't think it was Izanagi. There's really no proof that it was used. 

Maybe he warped the flames into his dimension.

It doesn't have to be explicitly shown to be Izanagi. I  believe the consensus here (besides JuubiSage and you) is that Izanagi was the most likely option. Sorry if you can't accept that...


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## Vice (Dec 6, 2012)

Because Amaterasu has shit feats.


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 6, 2012)

Izanagi?

I thought that was sort of settled.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 6, 2012)

The most popular theory is _Izanagi_. It also explains why Kishi kept Obito's face covered with the mask.


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## Rain (Dec 6, 2012)

RikudouHiraishin813 said:


> I really don't think it was Izanagi. There's really no proof that it was used.
> 
> Maybe he warped the flames into his dimension.



What The Fuck


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## Coldhands (Dec 6, 2012)

I think he just warped the flames into boxland, makes the most sense to me. To use Izanagi he would have needed to activate it earlier, which he didn't have time to do since Amaterasu was a total surprise.


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## Senju Leader (Dec 6, 2012)

He probably just made his body intangible letting the flames slide off him. 

There is no indication that he used Izangi, sasuke would have noticed something if Obito was missing an eye due to the technique. Kishi would have let us know if he used Izangi. He did every other time it was used


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## SubtleObscurantist (Dec 6, 2012)

Wtf? Why are you arguing with yourself, Rikudo?

Anyway, it was Izanagi. If he had used Kamui, it wouldn't explain how he separated himself from the flames. They were clearly attached to him and it wouldn't explain the screaming, groaning, and then silence. Furthermore, he said that whatever he did was a secret from Itachi, and I do not believe that Kamui, which he uses freely and openly in front of everyone he crosses paths with, is a secret. 

On the other hand, that he possessed Hasharima's DNA very much was a secret. Kishi kept the the method a secret even from the readers, so Izanagi makes infinitely more sense than Kamui. Kishi also made Obito's mask fall off, which parallels Obito taking half of his own mask off to reveal Izanagi against Konan. 

And the notion that Sasuke could have noticed is silly since he couldn't see through Izanagi later and he can't tell if the right eye is missing because of the mask. Obito clearly used Izanagi the moment after Amaterasu hit him, before it started burning him, and then replaced the eye later with one of his many stored Sharingans.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Dec 6, 2012)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Wtf? Why are you arguing with yourself?


Rikudou: *Sorry, we're indecisive. *

Hiraishin: _Minato-sama soloes this shit._ 

813: See what I have to deal with.


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## AvengeRpro (Dec 6, 2012)

obito has like 400 uchiha eyes so just use one


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## Aeiou (Dec 6, 2012)

JuubiSage said:


> I think he just warped the flames into boxland, makes the most sense to me. To use Izanagi he would have needed to activate it earlier, which he didn't have time to do since Amaterasu was a total surprise.



Agree. 

When was the claim ever made that once he is touched, he can no longer phase? I'm pretty sure he was taken by surprise by that Amaterasu, and later became intangible to avoid it while absorbing it to his dimension. Using Izanagi is a bit absurd, you use that technique when you're about to die. Amaterasu doesn't kill you within seconds. As as JuubiSage said, the technique wasn't prepared.


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## Addy (Dec 6, 2012)

he kamuid it to the other dimension.


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## Hiko Seijurou (Dec 6, 2012)

It was likely Kamui. Itachi probably knew Obito had Izanagi (especially if he thought he was Madara, which is BS imo) and there would be no time to set it off.

Or Kishi screwed up.


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## Ascend (Dec 6, 2012)

I don't know, it wasn't Izanagi cause we never saw him do the hand seals to activate it.


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## egressmadara (Dec 6, 2012)

-Extingusihed it with his own MS... somehow
-Warped it away and regenerated some of the damage


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## ShinAkuma (Dec 6, 2012)

He warped away the flames. While his ability to travel and phase was not a secret the fact that he is connected to another dimension is/was.


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## iJutsu (Dec 6, 2012)

If it had hit him in the eye, it would've been over. It didn't, so all he had to do was phase it away.


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## Olivia (Dec 6, 2012)

There was no reason for the mask to fall to the ground if it were not izanagi. As we know the eye needs to be exposed to light for izanagi to work, as shown when Danzo unveils his Sharingarm and when Obito breaks the top portion of his mask against Konan. 

If something is touching him (a weapen he's using, his clothes, etc) it turns 'intangible' with him, so most likely using Kamui would only make the amateratsu burn him in the other dimension. With his mask already off he'd be able to easily cast izanagi with his other eye, then pick up his mask and cover his face to be safe once again.


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## Naruto Fighto (Dec 6, 2012)

He could have survived number of ways - warp the flames to another dimension, detach a body part that was hit if that part is made of zetsu, use izanagi. I'd say he was probably hit in the part of the body made out of zetsu so he just replaced/regrew that part. 
Because even if he used kamui on the flames, it would be after he is hit and his body would be full of burns. He seemed fine the moment he reappeared. Or it was izanagi. 

Either way that was not Itachi's real trap, Itachi's real trap was Sasuke since Sasuke would join Naruto to fight Tobi. Itachi might have other contingency plans as well.


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## Closet Pervert (Dec 6, 2012)

JuubiSage said:


> I think he just warped the flames into boxland, makes the most sense to me. To use Izanagi he would have needed to activate it earlier, which he didn't have time to do since Amaterasu was a total surprise.


THis man speaks the truth.


Olivia said:


> There was no reason for the mask to fall to the ground if it were not izanagi.


Urrr Tobi had already taken the mask off. I think being burned alive is a pretty good reason to drop stuff you don't really need. Or maybe Tobi was like, hey maybe i should hold this mask in front of my Izanagi eye forever even though i was just about to remove it, oh shit wait i need more light for Izanagi so i guess i'll just drop this mask.


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## Emo_Princess (Dec 6, 2012)

He sacrificed his balls then somehow survived.


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## MYJC (Dec 6, 2012)

Seems pretty obvious that he used Izanagi. It's why he had to take his mask off.

That huge collection of Sharingans isn't just for show.


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## PDQ (Dec 6, 2012)

Actually he didn't get engulfed completely, just his right side.  So he likely disconnected the Zetsu-like part that Madara attached and regrew it like he always does.


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## ch1p (Dec 6, 2012)

Izanagi.

As if Itachi wouldn't know Tobi could warp Amaterasu away easily, it was not as if his powers were a secret from the Akatsuki.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Dec 6, 2012)

PDQ said:


> Actually he didn't get engulfed completely, just his right side.  So he likely disconnected the Zetsu-like part that Madara attached and regrew it like he always does.



He wasn't completely engulfed at first but the fire was spreading and based on the screams and groans it continued to do so. And he never regrew anything that fast and it wouldn't restore his clothes.


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## Kaiser (Dec 6, 2012)

He simply warped the flames. I don't see why it's impossible especially after we've already seen him able to warp himself even when Shino's bugs were sucking his chakra. If he was able to do that at that moment, he can do the same with amaterasu


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## Oga Tatsumi (Dec 6, 2012)

It can't be Kamui because Itachi already knew Obito's Ability; Kamui back then prior to Uchiha Massacre.

Furthermore, Obito was Itachi's master.

it can't be Izanagi too; it doesn't need Senju DNA. I assume Itachi thought "Uchiha Madara"(The Ultimate Uchiha) knew of Izanagi and Izanami, Unless he thought Madara was so weak(pathetic shell of his former self) that he couldn't use Izanagi or Izanami.

What secret Obito keep from Itachi? that he wasn't Madara(pathetic shell of his former self) or is still a mystery.

Unless that's a mistranslation.


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## PureWIN (Dec 7, 2012)

Either Kamui or Izanagi.

Itachi was a failure, because it failed to kill him.


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## Azula (Dec 7, 2012)

kamui

he warped the flames


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## SubtleObscurantist (Dec 7, 2012)

Mickie said:


> it can't be Izanagi too; it doesn't need Senju DNA. I assume Itachi thought "Uchiha Madara"(The Ultimate Uchiha) knew of Izanagi and Izanami, Unless he thought Madara was so weak(pathetic shell of his former self) that he couldn't use Izanagi or Izanami.
> 
> What secret Obito keep from Itachi? that he wasn't Madara(pathetic shell of his former self) or is still a mystery.
> 
> Unless that's a mistranslation.



Izanagi is a derivative of Banbutsu Sozo that brings manipulates form and life, and absolutely requires Senju DNA. That has never been contradicted. That other Uchihas used it simply means that they stole Senju DNA as Madara or Danzo did or they interbred with Senju (and the increasing bond between the Senju and Uchiha is what sent Madara over the edge to begin with). 

And the secret Obito referred to was a secret relevant to how he survived. The fact he wasn't Madara was completely irrelevant in context.


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## Oga Tatsumi (Dec 7, 2012)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Izanagi is a derivative of Banbutsu Sozo that brings manipulates form and life, and absolutely requires Senju DNA. That has never been contradicted. That other Uchihas used it simply means that they stole Senju DNA as Madara or Danzo did or they interbred with Senju (and the increasing bond between the Senju and Uchiha is what sent Madara over the edge to begin with).
> 
> And the secret Obito referred to was a secret relevant to how he survived. The fact he wasn't Madara was completely irrelevant in context.



I will just here *BlinkST* explanation of why Izanagi doesn't need Senju DNA.


*Spoiler*: __ 





BlinkST said:


> I've been waiting for you since Dragonus closed that thread on me.
> 
> What he's saying is that Obito is speaking from _his perspective_. Obito considers _himself_ to basically be a "true" user of Izanagi, because _he mastered _Senju powers, while other users [Danzo; nameless Uchiha] don't have the same luxury, so their Izanagi isn't comparable. Yes, they can use Izanagi. What separates the two, is duration.
> 
> ...







Obito's secret: If it's not Kamui and Izanagi then what it is?


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Dec 7, 2012)

Mickie said:


> Obito's secret: If it's not Kamui and Izanagi then what it is?


Hiraishin:_Obito's most secretive technique...Ob*t*ito Mode: Killer of Mansali no Jutsu!!!_


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## SubtleObscurantist (Dec 7, 2012)

blinkST's reasoning is wrong, even if we accept the translation that says a few seconds rather than the more common one I have found which says a brief instant (which could be defined any number of ways). For starters, it neglects the fact that Obito clearly states that Izanagi is a derivative of Banbutsu Sozo. And that makes sense. Izanagi has nothing in common with mere genjutsu. It literally allows the caster to erase their form and recreate it while transferring their life from one to another. That is Omyouton. 

However, Obito doesn't use just any Senju DNA and nor does Danzo. They used Hasharima's DNA, which is the uber powerful superior Senju DNA that no other Senju even approaches as much. His more powerful chakra could easily extend the length as much as it could shorten Kotoamatsukami's cooldown from ten years to a couple hours.

And blinkST's reasoning goes even more askew when he suggests that Danzo lost Hasharima's DNA. Yes, he lost most of it, but we still see Mokuton extending from the arm he lost, which means he still has a small portion of that power. And then just boggles the mind when he suggests that Sasuke wondering how he and Itachi might use Izanagi implies that it could be done. Sasuke hasn't the faintest clue how Izanagi is performed or what it's prerequisites. He merely knows what he learned about fighting the jutsu by working out the patterns against Danzo. 

And then he works in the convolution about Obito meaning that only his Izanagi was the true Izanagi because he used Senju DNA. Well he and Danzo, the person whose Izanagi he said was incomplete, both wield Hasharima's DNA. 

No, blinkST's interpretation doesn't hold water.


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## Vergil642 (Dec 7, 2012)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Wtf? Why are you arguing with yourself, Rikudo?
> 
> Anyway, it was Izanagi. If he had used Kamui, it wouldn't explain how he separated himself from the flames. They were clearly attached to him and it wouldn't explain the screaming, groaning, and then silence. Furthermore, he said that whatever he did was a secret from Itachi, and I do not believe that Kamui, which he uses freely and openly in front of everyone he crosses paths with, is a secret.
> 
> ...



What that guy said.

He couldn't Kamui that shit off him because he was already on fire. He phases through stuff by temporarily putting pieces of himself into the other dimension and is therefore simply not there when an attack hits him.

Amaterasu was on him. Putting the part of his body that was on fire would just put Amaterasu in said other dimension too.

And the idea Itachi didn't know about Kamui, even if he didn't know it's name, when that is *all Obito ever uses* is ridiculous.


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## Bontakun (Dec 7, 2012)

I am going with the simplest explanation, Kamui.
We don't know that he is able to use Izanagi, and that he had an extra sharingan behind that mask.

Izanagi is a strong argument though because he has tanks full of sharingans stored up. He could also use a scroll of fire sealing like Jiraiya.

But it's impossible to be sure, so the simplest explanation is the most likely. Kamui.


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## Darth (Dec 7, 2012)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Wtf? Why are you arguing with yourself, Rikudo?
> 
> Anyway, it was Izanagi. If he had used Kamui, it wouldn't explain how he separated himself from the flames. They were clearly attached to him and it wouldn't explain the screaming, groaning, and then silence. Furthermore, he said that whatever he did was a secret from Itachi, and I do not believe that Kamui, which he uses freely and openly in front of everyone he crosses paths with, is a secret.
> 
> ...



This would have been plausible had it not already been confirmed that Itachi already had knowledge of Izanagi. Taking that into consideration, he may have been aiming to at least cost Obito an eye which would have weakened him substantially. 

It also seems plausible that Itachi knew that Obito wasn't the real Uchiha Madara. However, if he did believe that Obito really was Madara, there would have been no reason to doubt that Itachi believed that Madara knew both Izanagi and Izanami. 

Honestly, he should have just solo'd Obito with a suprise Totsuga and became the real final villain. Would have made this manga a lot less irritating.


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## Lord Valgaav (Dec 7, 2012)

Most sensible answer is that he Kamui'd it.


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## Hokage (Dec 7, 2012)

Kamui would have only taken the amaterasu flames to Obito's dimension which would have solved nothing. Izanagi is the only technique we know that Obito could have used against Amaterasu.


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## Lord Valgaav (Dec 7, 2012)

Hokage said:


> Kamui would have only taken the amaterasu flames to Obito's dimension which would have solved nothing. Izanagi is the only technique we know that Obito could have used against Amaterasu.



If he used it then, he couldnt have used it again against Konan. 

Warping something is different from when he phases. When he phases through something hes just replacing part of or his entire body with an astral projection while his real body is in the pocket dimension. While with warping his real body can still be in the physical world, but he can just suck things in there. Like a vacuum.


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## Hokage (Dec 7, 2012)

Valgaav said:


> If he used it then, he couldnt have used it again against Konan.
> 
> Warping something is different from when he phases. When he phases through something hes just replacing part of or his entire body with an astral projection while his real body is in the pocket dimension. While with warping his real body can still be in the physical world, but he can just suck things in there. Like a vacuum.




Why not? Obito had a huge stock of Uchiha eyes?

Itachi had all the time in the world to study how Obito's T/S jutsu work. The guy couldn't stop using it. Its plausable to think that Itachi had planned his attack basing on that knowledge. What he may not have known is that Obito could use Izanagi. Its a prohibited jutsu whom very few people knew how to use as the price of it is very high. 

I think that Itachi planned to kill or (worst case scenario) at least cripple Obito by eliminating his best eye. He didn't knew that Obito had a storage of Uchiha eyes.


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## Tengu (Dec 7, 2012)

Izanagi, it was established a while ago.


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## Mephissto (Dec 7, 2012)

Maybe he just dressed. As seen when Sasuke amaterasu'd the Samurai, all it took to get rid of Amaterasu was removing their armor.


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## Blaze Release (Dec 7, 2012)

It CANNOT have been izanagi. In order for Tobi to use izanagi he would have to be aware of what was about to happen for him to activate this jutsu. However going by his reaction he didn't see amaterasu coming.

Izanagi only allows the user to evade any damage during the duration of the technique and NOT before/after the technique.

What people saying izanagi are basically saying that if an injury was sustained BEFORE izanagi and the user uses izanagi, after the technique the user of izanagi would be free of the injury they received before izanagi and that is wrong.

The only way to evade damage with izanagi is to use it before and not after you've sustained injury.

Anyway the DB entry hints to it being kamui or that is the logical answer. Either that or another masterful MS user can put it out.


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## Darth (Dec 7, 2012)

Blaze Release said:


> It CANNOT have been izanagi. In order for Tobi to use izanagi he would have to be aware of what was about to happen for him to activate this jutsu. However going by his reaction he didn't see amaterasu coming.
> 
> Izanagi only allows the user to evade any damage during the duration of the technique and NOT before/after the technique.
> 
> ...



Welp, that second image pretty much proves it wasn't Izanagi, and that he did indeed Kamui the flames off of his body. 

Kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk


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## sleepwizard (Dec 7, 2012)

Well I throw a new possible answer to the question how tobi survive amaterasu. Sasuke have the ability to use 'Blaze release'. An advanced chakra nature where the user can control the flames (amaterasu). Maybe tobi has that ability too... it can explain how he survived amaterasu by controlling it using the Blaze release.

Source 'Blaze Release': 

1) Izanagi
Technic must be prepared before the user can use it (demonstrated in the fight, Danzo vs Sasuke). It is a high class genjutsu used in near-death situations.

2) Teleportation
The technic can be used too get rid of the cloth's (part) that are caught by amaterasu but because it stated that amaterasu are the most powerfull flames (flames from hell), clothes are burned away in less then one second. I don't think that tobi is that fast.


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## Escargon (Dec 7, 2012)

Didnt he burn for real? He fell back burned up and screamed. Then he came back to put his mask on. 

Izanagi i guess. Tho it wouldnt make any sense i dont think he were ready to get hit by those flames. Izanagi cant warp time now can it.


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## JPongo (Dec 7, 2012)

I think it was the zetsu mask that burned.

The zetsu mask then reformed again before Obito went back to Sasuke.

If not, then Izanagi although that was a pretty quick eye replacement.


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## DonutKid (Dec 7, 2012)

phase his arm off. and then a new zetsu suit.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Dec 7, 2012)

Izanagi.

This was answered ages ago.


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## vinnycool sannin (Dec 7, 2012)

KAMUI.....
Amaterasu isnt doing shit and everyone is dodging it


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 7, 2012)

You guys have it all wrong...He used Jiraiyas fire sealing scroll


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Dec 7, 2012)

Complete_Ownage said:


> You guys have it all wrong...He used Jiraiyas fire sealing scroll


Hiraishin: _No bro, you got it wrong! It was the Replacement Technique!_ 

813: ^The stupidity...it burns!


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## Enclave (Dec 7, 2012)

The answer seems obvious to me.  He Kamui'd the flames away.



sleepwizard said:


> 2) Teleportation
> The technic can be used too get rid of the cloth's (part) that are caught by amaterasu but because it stated that amaterasu are the most powerfull flames (flames from hell), clothes are burned away in less then one second. I don't think that tobi is that fast.



Amaterasu does NOT burn that fast.  There's plenty of proof to that fact if you just look at Karin, A and that Samurai.


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## Velocity (Dec 7, 2012)

Why couldn't he have simply used Kamui to suck the flames away? 

I mean, using Izanagi seems like a bit of a drastic measure just to deal with Amaterasu...


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## Coldhands (Dec 7, 2012)

Velocity said:


> Why couldn't he have simply used Kamui to suck the flames away?
> 
> I mean, using Izanagi seems like a bit of a drastic measure just to deal with Amaterasu...



Indeed. The easiest and most logical answer is that he just warped the Amaterasu into boxland with Kamui. 

Plus he couldn't have even used Izanagi because he didn't have time to activate it beforehand.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Dec 7, 2012)

Velocity said:


> Why couldn't he have simply used Kamui to suck the flames away?
> 
> I mean, using Izanagi seems like a bit of a drastic measure just to deal with Amaterasu...


Getting rid of the flames isn't the hangup. It's the returning with no damage done to arm and clothing. _Kamui_ wouldn't restore either. Pairing it with Zetsu's ability would cover restoring his arm but not his clothing.

If he is using _Izanagi_, he would have needed to activate it before he knew what was coming from Sasuke's eye. Basically, he sees Itachi's Mangekyo Sharingan design and prepares for the worst.


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## Enclave (Dec 7, 2012)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> Getting rid of the flames isn't the hangup. It's the returning with no damage done to arm and clothing. _Kamui_ wouldn't restore either. Pairing it with Zetsu's ability would cover restoring his arm but not his clothing.
> 
> If he is using _Izanagi_, he would have needed to activate it before he knew what was coming from Sasuke's eye. Basically, he sees Itachi's Mangekyo Sharingan design and prepares for the worst.



Or he just warped it away before it burned through his clothing.

Again I state, Amaterasu doesn't seem to burn very fast.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Dec 7, 2012)

Obito could easily have activated Izanagi the moment the flames hit him and before they did damage because they hadn't burned through the clothes yet. But the "there would still be damage" pretty much disproves Kamui.

If he used phasing while the flames were firmly attached to him (and they were, because he was screaming and groaning), they would just go with him and wouldn't disappear. If he somehow phased out and left the flames behind, then they would be left in the real world and would still be burning when he phased back in. But if he warped them, then the damage on his arm and shoulder would still be there because we saw them start consuming him and heard his screams and groans for quite some time. The flames obviously killed him because then he went silent.

And the databook explicitly raises the question of how Obito escaped the flames because it asks "Is this another one of Madara's abilities?". If he used the same method as always, that question is completely redundant.





Darth said:


> This would have been plausible had it not already been confirmed that Itachi already had knowledge of Izanagi. Taking that into consideration, he may have been aiming to at least cost Obito an eye which would have weakened him substantially.
> 
> It also seems plausible that Itachi knew that Obito wasn't the real Uchiha Madara. However, if he did believe that Obito really was Madara, there would have been no reason to doubt that Itachi believed that Madara knew both Izanagi and Izanami.



For starters, Itachi knows Izanagi exists and what it does. He had know idea Obito had it because it requires Senju DNA, which no one knew Madara had. Furthermore, we know for a fact that he believed Obito to be Madara because he called Tobi Madara to Naruto as an Edo and referred to him as Madara in his own private thoughts.


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 7, 2012)

RikudouHiraishin813 said:


> Hiraishin: _No bro, you got it wrong! It was the Replacement Technique!_
> 
> 813: ^The stupidity...it burns!



ah Yes the most haxed jutsu in Replacement substitution


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## T-Bag (Dec 7, 2012)

there's a certain jutsu he uses called izanagi... which happened to be one of his biggest _secrets_ he kept from akatsuki


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## TimeMask (Dec 7, 2012)

Velocity said:


> Why couldn't he have simply used Kamui to suck the flames away?
> 
> I mean, using Izanagi seems like a bit of a drastic measure just to deal with Amaterasu...



Even though there are times when Amaterasu burns slow it seems Obito was burning for a little while yet he had no damage on him when he walked back to Sasuke from the shadows.

And Obito doesn't seem to need seals to use izanagi so its possible he used izanagi just before he was hit with Amaterasu as he saw Sasuke's eye bleed.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Dec 7, 2012)

The problem with the intangibility argument out the gate, is not only it doesn't make sense, but it gives a property to Kamui in which it doesn't possess....

Had intangibility been the solution....Amaterasu wouldn't have had time to spread.

There was quite a significant gap between the implementation of Amaterasu...and Obito's recovery.

Sasuke was able to express his displeasure over using Amaterasu...

In addition too contemplate Obito's whereabouts prior to reemerging in the following panel.

Had Kamui been the solution, it wouldn't have needed to occur off panel.

But apart from common sense....

The biggest CANONICAL thing going against the intangibility argument is this....

Obito wasn't able to remove the "Nano-sized" poisonous bugs from his body with Kamui....


He had to amputate it.


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## Jeαnne (Dec 7, 2012)

I think it was Izanagi. People say Kamui but the flames hit him...and spread. He also made a comment about keeping a secret from Itachi, this secret is most likely the many spare sharingan eyes that he got during the massacre.


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## Blaze Release (Dec 7, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> there's a certain jutsu he uses called izanagi... which happened to be one of his biggest _secrets_ he kept from akatsuki



Actually the DB states that his secret was his MS; kamui.

To the people saying izanagi either you do not understand how it works, or you are saying Tobi activated it in time before amaterasu got to him and i have a hard time believing that


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## Jeαnne (Dec 7, 2012)

Blaze Release said:


> Actually the DB states that his secret was his MS; kamui.
> 
> To the people saying izanagi either you do not understand how it works, or you are saying Tobi activated it in time before amaterasu got to him and i have a hard time believing that


Well, you think Itachi didnt know about Obito's ability of passing throught stuff, and teleporting?

If this is the case, why make an amaterasu trap so? If he didnt think that Obito needed an instant hit before he could use his Kamui?

Other thing. If Itachi knew about his ability, why wouldnt he guess that Obito would just use Kamui to get hid of it, even after it hit him?


Considering how Itachi was, its easier to believe that Obito used Izanagi than Kamui. Maybe Itachi wasnt aware about some kind of deal that happened between Danzou and Obito, related to the sharingans. Maybe, he wasnt even aware of the true objective behind the Uchiha massacre.

I think it makes more sense if Itachi believed that Obito didnt have an spare eye behind the mask, and maybe that he couldnt even use Izanagi, for the lack of senju DNA, for example.


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## Shidoshi (Dec 7, 2012)

Obito recognized the changing shape of Sasuke's Sharingan pupils and had enough time to register surprise "!" before being hit by the Amaterasu flames.

Why would he not have enough time to activate Izanagi?  Did Danzou call out "Izanagi" prior to using it?  Did Obito call out "Izanagi" while having issues phasing through Konan's 600 billion exploding tags and getting caught by some of them?

No.

Obito had enough time to use Izanagi *and* Kamui at the same time, while focusing on either phasing through, absorbing or brunting the explosive tags.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Dec 7, 2012)

Velocity said:


> Why couldn't he have simply used Kamui to suck the flames away?
> 
> I mean, using Izanagi seems like a bit of a drastic measure just to deal with Amaterasu...



The whole statement from Tobi about keeping some things from Itachi leads towards him using _Izanagi_. It's not likely that Itachi didn't know something about the dynamics of _Tobi's Kamui_.

Tobi was unmasked as well, so his second spare eye would be exposed to allow him to use _Izanagi _and return with zero damage.


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## Mephissto (Dec 8, 2012)

Blaze Release said:


> It CANNOT have been izanagi. In order for Tobi to use izanagi he would have to be aware of what was about to happen for him to activate this jutsu. However going by his reaction he didn't see amaterasu coming.
> 
> Izanagi only allows the user to evade any damage during the duration of the technique and NOT before/after the technique.
> 
> ...



Here is the proof from the Databook. He used Kamui, fact. 
/thread


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## sasutachi (Dec 8, 2012)

it's probably izanagi. 
lol @databook , tobi used kamui against sasuke in front of deidara.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Dec 8, 2012)

From a story perspective, I lean towards it being Izanagi to survive and Kamui to warp the flames away but both Izanagi and Kamui have some problems making sense based off everything known currently. For Izanagi, from what we know of its mechanics, it wouldn't work on a preexisting injury/attack, so Obito would have needed to activate it prior to Amaterasu hitting him, which doesn't seem likely given the surprise nature of the attack and handseals it takes(though I guess one could argue Obito doesn't need them due to being superior to Danzo). There is also the matter of Obito crying out in agony a few times, if he activated Izanagi prior to it being used that wouldn't have happened. There is also the matter of Itachi knowing about Izanagi and knowing that power hungry Uchiha's, especially one as powerful as Madara, would know how to use it. 

People keep assuming in this thread that Itachi knew the mechanics of Kamui, as if its something widely known or if Obito(who had great respect for Itachi's genius) would use it around him a lot, when he knows Itachi would betray him if he could. Konan may have known about it but Obito wouldn't have considered her as much of a threat. Considering we now know he knows all about Izanagi, its more likely that with our current information that its Kamui. That does leave us to question why his clothes seem unfazed but that problem exists with both Izanagi and Kamui and we can possibly chalk it up to Naruto's clothes not being fazed by changing into the Kyuubi or Kishi not wanting to give too many hints towards Obito's body modifications at the time. Someone mentioned the nano-bugs as being proof that Obito couldn't use Kamui to get rid of Amaterasu but the difference is that nano-bugs are internal and not external like Amaterasu. After all, he was covered in Shino's bugs and still Kamui'd out of there.

Izanagi makes the most sense from a story standpoint as the reader had already seen Kamui and if it was that then why hide it? The inconsistencies with later information/feats is most likely due to Izanagi not being fully worked out in Kishi's head yet and when it comes to the Izanagi wars and Izanami, well that was just pulled out of Kishi's ass. That being said, Kamui from what we know should also work as a counter to Amaterasu, so I wouldn't count it out as being what he used.


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## Stratogabo (Dec 8, 2012)

He is the Gym Leader of Cerulean City.


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## General Mael Radec (Dec 8, 2012)

he just warped the flames with kamui. It couldnt be izanagi. Aparantly the eye must be opened and have visability. Let me explain, when he was vs konan he had to break the mask apart so his eye could be visible to use izanagi. If we go  by this then it couldnt be izanagi.


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## ovanz (Dec 8, 2012)

Pretty lame if Obito had to use izanagi against such a shitty jutsu. Even Karin tanked that shit. Too me it looked he just used kamui and then the stupid fire just fell to the ground.


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## Ceasar Drake (Dec 8, 2012)

Doesn't your sharingan disable after the use of Izanagi..


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## Punished Pathos (Dec 8, 2012)

ovanz said:


> Pretty lame if Obito had to use izanagi against such a shitty jutsu. Even Karin tanked that shit. Too me it looked he just used kamui and then the stupid fire just fell to the ground.



Just you wait...
Amaterasu will be the key to Madara's defeat/


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## AvengeRpro (Dec 8, 2012)

Elixir of Immortality said:


> Doesn't your sharingan disable after the use of Izanagi..



One eye, just like when fighting konan. Also remember he had a collection of spares.


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## Ezekial (Dec 8, 2012)

Izanagi, most plausible answer.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Dec 8, 2012)

People asume that Amaterasu is insta kill if it hits something which isnt true. As Nagato showed pure kinetic energy is enough to repel the black flames meaning there are tons of move which can remove the flames. Kamui can warp the flames to another dimension,i dont see a problem there.


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## shintebukuro (Dec 8, 2012)

It was Izanagi.


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## houston9788 (Dec 8, 2012)

i dont understand what the dilemma is here. theres a panel showing obito putting his mask back on, which means he probably used his other eye.. which means he most likely blew a spare sharingan on izanagi.


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## DremolitoX (Dec 8, 2012)

Amaterasu hit him.

Obito activates izanagi.

Obito dies.

Obito respawns, with the flames no longer on him (why would they be?)


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## Zoan Marco (Dec 8, 2012)

Or he just warps the flames away.


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## Raventhal (Dec 8, 2012)

His clothes make it Izanagi.  If he warped the fire away his clothes would have been burnt.   He didn't change his clothes that fast.


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## Edo Madara (Dec 9, 2012)

It was Izanagi. 
He kept it secret from Itachi and kishimoto need to kept it secret from readers

and it was suprised amaterasu attack, the flames hit him and burn him, even if he use kamui at that moment, it will leave him in pretty bad state (half of his body burned)


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## ?_Camorra_? (Dec 9, 2012)

Raventhal said:


> His clothes make it Izanagi.  If he warped the fire away his clothes would have been burnt.   He didn't change his clothes that fast.



Amaterasu couldnt even burn Karin's clothes and samurai armor, people forget that Amaterasu burns very slow. Also i doubt Kishimoto has even thought about Izanagi back then since he has like one week in advance to plan his plot.


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## Chausie (Dec 9, 2012)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Amaterasu couldnt even burn Karin's clothes and samurai armor, people forget that Amaterasu burns very slow. Also i doubt Kishimoto has even thought about Izanagi back then since he has like one week in advance to plan his plot.



I'm pretty sure most the major things in the manga are thought up way way in advance, including things like major jutsu.

May seem like he makes it up as he goes along, but most of the story is thought up of in a lot more time than just the week before the chapter is released. Maybe fine details are made then.

And I always presumed he warped it away, amaterasu seems to be slow burning/moving, even if it is deadly, like how lava is. Most issue is that the user can direct it and there isn't a conventional way to extinguish the flames.

Make a lot of sense if it was Izanagi too, though


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## Closet Pervert (Dec 9, 2012)

ch1p said:


> Izanagi.
> 
> As if Itachi wouldn't know Tobi could warp Amaterasu away easily, it was not as if his powers were a secret from the Akatsuki.


What makes you say that? Tobi seems pretty secretive. IIRC Deidara had no idea how Tobi beat Sanbi, for example. He also didn't make the connection when his hand was Kamui'd.

Itachi would've known about Izanagi since he knew Izanami, though, i can agree with that much.





sleepwizard said:


> The technic can be used too get rid of the cloth's (part) that are caught by amaterasu but because it stated that amaterasu are the most powerfull flames (flames from hell), clothes are burned away in less then one second. I don't think that tobi is that fast.


A second is a pretty long time for one who contends with A and Minato.


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## Blaze Release (Dec 9, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> Well, you think Itachi didnt know about Obito's ability of passing throught stuff, and teleporting?
> 
> If this is the case, why make an amaterasu trap so? If he didnt think that Obito needed an instant hit before he could use his Kamui?
> 
> ...



Dude Obito claimed that he kept secrets from him which in turn allowed him to troll amaterasu otherwise he would be dead.

Majority have believed that this means izanagi however they are wrong. First is to distinguish obito from his identity madara. Itachi thought obito was madara has did everybody else (apart from kabuto/oro). If itachi did really believe that obito = madara (and he did), he would know that somebody like madara, the uchiha leader can use either kinjutsu's and in fact its canon that madara taught obito izanagi and potentially izanami. 

The DB in turn has hinted to the reader what secret Obito was talking about and the DB says "However Tobi does not use the MS in the presence of other akatsuki members". That could eaily translate to the secret that obito was talking about and on the same page the DB hinted to this secret when it talked about how Obito trolled amaterasu and going by it, its heavily linked to kamui.

The whole point was the element of surprise, therefore obito would not have anticipated this so even with izanagi it fails. However his secret was kamui

The second reason i do not believe its izanagi is because of how it happened. Tobi hadnt anticipated amaterasu and was caught with his guard down. In order for him to have successfully used izanagi he wouldve had to have used it before amaterasu, during izanagi even if obito gets caught by it, its an illusionary him so it doesn't matter. If obito was caught by amaterasu and he had used izanagi after amaterasu had already latched on him, it wouldve been pointless. He wouldve wasted an eye for no reason because that didn't happen during izanagi but rather before.

A user of izanagi cannot repair damage already sustained before or after the technique and the (obito vs konan and danzo vs sasuke) had already this established this.

The times the manga has made it clear that a user was using izanagi was when it was first introduced against sasuke and later against konan. Before these incidents nothing in the manga was remotely linked to izanagi and its usage

Anyway each to their own but by how izanagi works the only way to overcome amaterasu is to use it before amaterasu and im not buying obito preparing for such a situation when the manga has made that clear.

Forgot to add, im a fan of your Amatsutatara theory though


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## T-Bag (Dec 9, 2012)

Blaze Release said:


> Actually the DB states that his secret was his MS; kamui.
> 
> To the people saying izanagi either you do not understand how it works, or you are saying Tobi activated it in time before amaterasu got to him and i have a hard time believing that



No.

S/t jutsu was not a secret to konan therefore it shouldnt be a secret to itachi who directly worked with him. Plain and simple.

not too mention kamui is not suited to get rid of amatarasu



Gaelek_13 said:


> The whole statement from Tobi about keeping some things from Itachi leads towards him using _Izanagi_. It's not likely that Itachi didn't know something about the dynamics of _Tobi's Kamui_.
> 
> Tobi was unmasked as well, so his second spare eye would be exposed to allow him to use _Izanagi _and return with zero damage.



bam

/thread


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## BlinkST (Dec 9, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> not too mention kamui is not suited to get rid of amatarasu


Don't see what could have stopped him from simply phasing through the flames after they hit. 

On the other hand, assuming he just happened to activate Izanagi before getting hit ventures a little too far into fuckouttahere territory to me.


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## CyberianGinseng (Dec 9, 2012)

People are claiming there's a problem with him activating Izanagi as soon as he knew he was in danger. At the same time they're claiming that Amaterasu was too slow to leave scorch marks on his clothes. How can you hold those two thoughts in your heads at the same time?

His clothes were on fire. The fire spread all over his body. If he was phasing the fire would have nothing to spread all over and should have merely floated at shoulder level or fell to the floor and burnt the floor. Or otherwise flared up in a shapeless manner before being extinguished. How did it spread along this body without damage to at least his clothes? *How *did it *follow *him into the darkness if he was busy phasing through it? If it was so slow to burn that he was able to stumble into the dark before taking any damage at all and only then phase, why would it be so fast that he couldn't use Izanagi?

Izanagi.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Dec 9, 2012)

BlinkST said:


> Don't see what could have stopped him from simply phasing through the flames after they hit.



Well what stops him from phasing through his clothes? After all, they aren't appendage to his body either.

Wouldn't Amaterasu function in a similar manner to clothes at that point?


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## T-Bag (Dec 9, 2012)

BlinkST said:


> Don't see what could have stopped him from simply phasing through the flames after they hit.
> 
> On the other hand, assuming he just happened to activate Izanagi before getting hit ventures a little too far into fuckouttahere territory to me.



how is phasing through amatarasu help exactly? his body parts transport to the other dimension with flames still intact. makes no sense to use kamui

izanagi does.

1. secret he kept from akatsuki (including itachi)
2. came back untouched
3. screaming to death, which implies his body was being burned
4. took a long time to come back (because his body was incinerated completely)

the point of kamui is to use it before it damage occurs, if it hits you kamui is pretty much obsolete


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## Closet Pervert (Dec 9, 2012)

CyberianGinseng said:


> People are claiming there's a problem with him activating Izanagi as soon as he knew he was in danger. At the same time they're claiming that Amaterasu was too slow to leave scorch marks on his clothes. How can you hold those two thoughts in your heads at the same time?


For the slowness of Amaterasu burning Tobi to be relevant, the fire would have to have already hit Tobi before he activated Izanagi. Wouldn't he return to the state of being on fire after using it, then? I don't know.

Regardless, if Tobi had enough time to use Izanagi he should've had about enough time to use S/T, his signature move.


T-Bag said:


> 1. secret he kept from akatsuki (including itachi)


Again, Itachi knew Izanagi. It was not a secret to him and he should've taken it into account.


> 3. screaming to death, which implies his body was being burned


Fire is hot.


> 4. took a long time to come back (because his body was incinerated completely)


 Maybe he changed his shirt.


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## T-Bag (Dec 9, 2012)

Closet Pervert said:


> For the slowness of Amaterasu burning Tobi to be relevant, the fire would have to have already hit Tobi before he activated Izanagi. Wouldn't he return to the state of being on fire after using it, then? I don't know.
> 
> Regardless, if Tobi had enough time to use Izanagi he should've had about enough time to use S/T, his signature move.
> Again, Itachi knew Izanagi. It was not a secret to him and he should've taken it into account.
> ...



itachi knowing about izanagi proves nothing. it shows he knows about the jutsu. doesnt mean he was aware obito/madara had it


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## ch1p (Dec 9, 2012)

Closet Pervert said:


> What makes you say that? Tobi seems pretty secretive. IIRC Deidara had no idea how Tobi beat Sanbi, for example. He also didn't make the connection when his hand was Kamui'd.



I mean the intangibility isn't a secret. How it works isn't important to be aware Amaterasu wouldn't work. Izanagi was not a secret to itachi, I agree as well, but how would Itachi know about the Sharingan stash Obito possessed? For Itachi, Tobi was going around with just one eye and while he could sacrifice it with Izanagi, that would mean he'd be blind and an easy prey for Sasuke to get rid of. The intent was to protect Sasuke after all.


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## BlinkST (Dec 9, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> how is phasing through amatarasu help exactly? his body parts transport to the other dimension with flames still intact. makes no sense to use kamui


 You mean like here?
charged a bijuudama right next to it.

Or how about here?
charged a bijuudama right next to it.


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## T-Bag (Dec 9, 2012)

BlinkST said:


> You mean like here?
> charged a bijuudama right next to it.
> 
> Or how about here?
> charged a bijuudama right next to it.



so you're saying the flames would just simply wear off from teleporting?
lol


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## BlinkST (Dec 9, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> so you're saying the flames would just simply wear off from teleporting?
> lol


Yeah. Like those bugs didn't follow him when he teleported. Or how Fu fell down when he phased even though Obito was holding his left hand.


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## T-Bag (Dec 9, 2012)

bugs couldn't track him, so they let go of him when he teleported. Amatarasu hangs on to you, it doesn't depend on sensing

itachi is also smart enough to consider s/t jutsu as a possible counter


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## Raiken (Dec 9, 2012)

He could have just used the Absorption Power of Kamui on it after it hit him.
Obito makes contact with an individual.
Absorbs them, yet he doesn't absorb any of himself, despite physically touching them.
So the same can be applied to Amaterasu.


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## BlinkST (Dec 9, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> bugs couldn't track him, so they let go of him when he teleported.


He would have teleported them with him if he didn't phase through them beforehand. He probably wouldn't have even been able to teleport, considering bugs were sapping his chakra  



T-Bag said:


> Amatarasu hangs on to you, it doesn't depend on sensing


And a Bijudama explodes. It doesn't matter. His jutsu makes it so that whatever is _*touching*_ him, causes* his* body parts to go to a new dimension, and *only his* body parts, not *what's* touching him. That's the whole point.




That's why when he phased to avoid the *kunai*, *Fu* fell down. Because Fu's arm _didn't_ go to the dimension with *Obito's* arm. He just slipped through him.


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## shintebukuro (Dec 9, 2012)

Obito can also phase with his Shuriken and Madara's Gunbai as well. We don't know the specifics of it all, but there is definitely room to assume that Amaterasu was something that he could not phase away from.

If he could have simply phased through the flames, the whole thing wouldn't have been portrayed as this big deal that almost killed him. It makes the entire scene almost pointless if he could counter it the same way he counters a kunai being thrown at him.

The mask being off, him falling into the darkness so we could not see how he countered it, his screams, lack of damage, and the whole ordeal being treated as a close call all point to Izanagi.


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## T-Bag (Dec 9, 2012)

BlinkST said:


> He would have teleported them with him if he didn't phase through them beforehand. He probably wouldn't have even been able to teleport, considering bugs were sapping his chakra
> 
> 
> And a Bijudama explodes. It doesn't matter. His jutsu makes it so that whatever is _*touching*_ him, causes* his* body parts to go to a new dimension, and *only his* body parts, not *what's* touching him. That's the whole point.
> ...



kamui works weird. trying to explain it is pointless cuz it makes no sense. but you can already guess he used izanagi because itachi would be smart enough to consider his s/t jutsu as a means to survive. that's just common sense.

next thing you have to look at, he came out the flames unscathed and only came back after some time passed. that's because he waited until his whole body was incinirated and revived. 

3rd thing to consider is tobi's "secrets"  he said he managed to hide a few secrets even from itachi. this secret was obviously izanagi, the same jutsu that saved him against another knowledgeable opponent, konan. if s/t was not a secret to konan then sure as hell it wasn't a secret to itachi either. I mean after all that's all obito uses, that's his signature move. someone like itachi would know and prepare for it 

kamui is to dodge attacks. izanagi is to erase attacks. so if tobi didn't dodge it, he had to erase it = izanagi



shintebukuro said:


> Obito can also phase with his Shuriken and Madara's Gunbai as well. We don't know the specifics of it all, but there is definitely room to assume that Amaterasu was something that he could not phase away from.
> 
> If he could have simply phased through the flames, the whole thing wouldn't have been portrayed as this big deal that almost killed him. It makes the entire scene almost pointless if he could counter it the same way he counters a kunai being thrown at him.
> 
> The mask being off, him falling into the darkness so we could not see how he countered it, his screams, lack of damage, and the whole ordeal being treated as a close call all point to Izanagi.



shintebukuro at his finest


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## ?_Camorra_? (Dec 10, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> bugs couldn't track him, so they let go of him when he teleported. Amatarasu hangs on to you, it doesn't depend on sensing
> 
> itachi is also smart enough to consider s/t jutsu as a possible counter



So please explain how did Nagato pushed away the flames with his Shinra Tensei if they canot be detached from the body ? 
Obviously Obito can choose what things he can send to his Kamui dimension and i dont see a problem as to why Obito canot send Amaterasu away.
Oh and Itachi knew of Izanagi and Izanami, Obito's secret was Kamui a MS jutsu unique to him.


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## T-Bag (Dec 10, 2012)

shinra tensei pushes things, kamui does not. that's the difference between the 2.

kamui is not his secret lmaoo, konan knew about it.. that's the only jutsu he uses, it's his signature move. so of course itachi knew about it too. they worked together, he's even seen caught him sneak into konoha when no one else did.

itachi knowing about izanagi means nothing. konan knew about izanagi as well but guess what? 

[sp=Tag yo' shit][/sp]


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## Liverbird (Dec 10, 2012)

plot no jutsu


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## Hokage (Dec 10, 2012)

I strongly believe that it was Izanagi since Itachi had all the time in the world to study tobi's T/S jutsu and come out with a counter. Whether Itachi knew the specifics of Izanagi and how it worked is irrelevant. Amaterasu would have either killed Tobi or crippled him in such a way (ie losing his precious T/S jutsu eye through Izanagi) that he'll end up useless. What Itachi didn't knew was that Obito had a well supplied stock of sharingan eyes.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Dec 10, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> shinra tensei pushes things, kamui does not. that's the difference between the 2.
> 
> kamui is not his secret lmaoo, konan knew about it.. that's the only jutsu he uses, it's his signature move. so of course itachi knew about it too. they worked together, he's even seen caught him sneak into konoha when no one else did.
> 
> ...



Konan didnt knew about Izanagi, she knew that when you combine Senju and Uchiha powers you will get the powers of the 6 paths, thats it she did not mention Izanagi.
Fact is Itachi knew about Izanagi so you are wrong, its Kamui that was unknown to him. There is nothing stoping Obito to just warp the flames into Kamui's dimension,its way easier then sacrificing an eye for Izanagi.
Everything points towards Kamui.


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## Not another narutard (Dec 10, 2012)

I always thought he ued izanagi, since we learned that tobi can use it and we saw the sharingans he has in his lab.


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## Frosch (Dec 10, 2012)

So in conclusion he had options, sucking away the flames with Kamui, Izanagi (he has a huge sharingan stock to refill it, likely) or (the least likely from my point of view) he phased through them after they were already on him.

But we have no way of confirming any cause Kishi didn't show it. I'm pretty inclined that his Mangekyo Sharingan was what saved him because what Kishi did show us is Tobi's declaration that he survived the flames because he kept some secrets from Itachi. One of them being that he's not Uchiha Madara. I believe the other secret was his MS' ability. Itachi did not know Tobi would be capable of countering the Amaterasu trap because of the "secrets" he kept from him. So his failsafe only went as far as the fail part (you guys remember that part now?)



T-Bag said:


> shinra tensei pushes things, kamui does not. that's the difference between the 2.
> 
> kamui is not his secret lmaoo, konan knew about it.. that's the only jutsu he uses, it's his signature move. so of course itachi knew about it too. they worked together, he's even seen caught him sneak into konoha when no one else did.
> 
> ...



What? she didn't know about Izanagi itself, Tobi had to explain it for her, the only thing she knew was that a combination of Uchiha and Senju equals Rikudou Sennin's power, which she expressed after Tobi told her Izanagi uses the power of both.


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## insane111 (Dec 10, 2012)

There are at least 3 ways he could have escaped, who cares which one it was? All signs point to Izanagi, though.

1. He was screaming in pain and fell to the ground, then emererged with no damage - *very *similar to Danzou when he got hit. 
2. We know he has to have his eye uncovered to do it, conveniently his mask was off there. 
3. Izanagi couldn't be revealed at that point, which is why it was left vague. 
4. We already knew about intangibility at that point, so if he did that there was no reason to make his escape so vague.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Dec 10, 2012)

†_Camorra_† said:


> So please explain how did Nagato pushed away the flames with his Shinra Tensei if they canot be detached from the body ?


"So please explain how did Nagato pushed away the flames with his Shinra Tensei if they cannot be detatched from the body, A?

Gladly, let's recant the details surrounding Shenrai Tensei....

It repels PHYSICAL AND NINJUTSU attacks.....

In fact it "Deflects" all attacks.

Repel-to  back

Deflect-to change direction after hitting something.

I don't think Kamui carries such a property....

But perhaps you're still not able to put two and two together....

Perhaps you still need to be explicitly shown why your assessment is accurate.

Shenrai Tensei vs. Kunais? The former REPELS the later. 

Shenrai Tensei vs. Raijū Hashiri no Jutsu? The former repels the later.

Shenrai Tensei vs. FRS? The former repel the later.

Shenrai Tensei repels CHAKARA BASED ATTACKS.

So what that employs is that it's able to disperse CHAKARA PROJECTILES.

What is Amaterasu?

Again, I don't think Kamui carries such a property.

In fact if I recall specifically....Kamui merely allows attacks to SLIP THROUGH. It doesn't repel it doesn't deflect, it isn't represented by shenrai tensei in the slightest. 




> Obviously Obito can choose what things he can send to his Kamui dimension and i dont see a problem as to why Obito canot send Amaterasu away.


You don't see a problem? But you've yet to give anything beyond IT CAN.

Perhaps you need a reminder as to HOW OBITO'S KAMUI works as well.

In order for Obito to Kamui a third party entity...He is required to make HAND CONTACT.

Hand contact.


Hand contact...again.


Thrice 

Fourth times the charm

Or perhaps the fifth.

So how do you supposed he's going to Kamui Amaterasu into the next dimension, without setting additional portions of his body on fire?


----------



## BlinkST (Dec 10, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> kamui works weird. trying to explain it is pointless cuz it makes no sense. but you can already guess he used izanagi because itachi would be smart enough to consider his s/t jutsu as a means to survive. that's just common sense.


 That's nothing but a lame cop-out. Instead of providing any actual evidence, you're simply saying "Lol Itachi would have known". That's not evidence. The actual evidence, which is the page that clearly shows Fu restrained by Obito, then falling to the ground a second later, cements the fact that Kamui does not work the way you think it does. One more time:


He can *choose* to send away his own body parts, or his body parts *and* whatever he's making contact with. Obito does not have a *reason* to bring Amaterasu into the dimension *with* his body when he's trying to escape it. Amaterasu is not *Sasuke*.  



T-Bag said:


> next thing you have to look at, he came out the flames unscathed and only came back after some time passed. that's because he waited until his whole body was incinirated and revived.


Or he sucked up the flames or phased through them. 



T-Bag said:


> 3rd thing to consider is tobi's "secrets"  he said he managed to hide a few secrets even from itachi. this secret was obviously izanagi, the same jutsu that saved him against another knowledgeable opponent, konan.


The secret was his unique Space-time jutsu and the fact that he's *not* *Madara*. Even the databook alludes to that.


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## KingBoo (Dec 10, 2012)

izanagi.

warping the flames away doesn't make sense. he would still have burn marks on his cloths and body.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Dec 10, 2012)

Anyone trying to use character knowledge or feats to prove their point in this thread is doing it wrong. The only thing that matters is what makes sense from a story perspective, as if we use feats and character knowledge there are problems with it being either Kamui or Izanagi.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Dec 10, 2012)

BlinkST said:


> .....



I don't think the phasing aspect of his intangibility is as controllable as you are insinuating.

He can phase portions of his own body...But anything attached to that respective body part, is also going along for the ride.

As Amaterasu was able to spend a prolonged period upon Obito and even spread...

If what you are insinuating is plausible...Why oh why couldn't it have been accomplished on panel?

The phasing aspect of Kamui, was revealed here...

Expanded on here.

Details behind it revealed here.

If merely slipping through Amaterasu was the option, then why oh why couldn't it have been accomplished on panel?

If merely slipping through Amaterasu was the option, then why oh why wasn't it utilized immediately?

The "Screams" didn't just cease post departure from the readers point of view...

They continued in the dark as well....

There was a TWO PAGE PAUSE, in between the stoppage of the screams and Obito's return. 

In which Sasuke was able to recover from utilizing Amaterasu (Proxy) and gaze upon the area in which Obito deferred too......

Common sense is against the phasing argument....



> Or he sucked up the flames or phased through them.


In which the manga nor common sense supports.

You yourself posted a panel of Obito's Kamui outpacing that of Raikage's shushin, correct?

Then why oh why would it have taken several seconds for Obito to phase through Amaterasu?

More importantly, why would it be needed to be done off panel?

The sucking up argument is even more implausible because as I've shown previously it requires HAND CONTACT to perform....

More importantly how would it be able to distinguish between the flames.....And the material in which the flames are attached too?

If what you are citing is plausible then why stop at FLAMES? Obito would be able to just Kamui the flesh off a shinobi's bones on some Mortal Kombat type of shit....



> The secret was his unique Space-time jutsu and the fact that he's *not* *Madara*. Even the databook alludes to that.


The problem with your databook evidence, is that it refers to Obito as Madara.....

Seeing as Obito isn't Madara.....It essentially discredits the panel all together.

Izanagi wasn't revealed until 479.....Obito wasn't revealed to have possessed it until 509.

The Databook only covers up until Chasing Itachi arc......Which concluded chapter 404......


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Dec 10, 2012)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Common sense is against the phasing argument....


Izanagi's mechanics is against the Izanagi argument. Both sides have major flaws going by logic and feats, which is why one shouldn't use it to try and prove their point here.


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## shintebukuro (Dec 10, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Anyone trying to use character knowledge or feats to prove their point in this thread is doing it wrong. The only thing that matters is what makes sense from a story perspective, as if we use feats and character knowledge there are problems with it being either Kamui or Izanagi.



Exactly.

Kamui was something we had already seen. There would be no reason to hide it from us, and no reason to paint it as some "secret" if the character uses it _all_ the time.


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## Dr. White (Dec 10, 2012)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> I don't think the phasing aspect of his intangibility is as controllable as you are insinuating.
> 
> He can phase portions of his own body...But anything attached to that respective body part, is also going along for the ride.
> 
> ...



Tobi used Izanagi: this is the most evident choice.

-Tobi got tagged meaning if he warped his body the fire would simply travel with him. Itachi isn't a simpleton he knew about Obito, and this was his kill shot. Tobi then mentions he kept secrets from Itachi which was the only reason he could survive Itachi. Then BAM, his net fight vs Konan he pulls out Izanagi(right after the Sasuke battle: which delved into the Uchiha past, and even featured Itachi) , connecting the dots we reason that Izanagi(not adding rinnengan and Rikudo mode because he didn't have it at this point.) was the secret he had, since both we as the audience, and Konan had already knew about obito's phasing. 

That being said had Itachi planned to go after MS Obito instead of fufilling his plan with Sasuke he would have been in for a rude awakening, as Itachi had secrets of his own. Once Obito used Izanagi, thinking he had Itachi figured out, Itachi would have used Izanami to counter, and GG Obito. 

See how stuff is connected?


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## IpHr0z3nI (Dec 10, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Izanagi's mechanics is against the Izanagi argument. Both sides have major flaws going by logic and feats, which is why one shouldn't use it to try and prove their point here.



How so?

Izanagi only mechanic is that it turns reality into an illusion....

There isn't any heavy correlation associated with the jutsu beyond that.

But it isn't just general logic against Kamui....Common sense is as well.

KAMUI was showcased in great details SEVERAL TIMES TO THE READER PRIOR TO chapter 397.

Why would it need to be done off panel, if it was the solution?


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Dec 10, 2012)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> How so?
> 
> Izanagi only mechanic is that it turns reality into an illusion....


Izanagi cannot work on a preexisting injury or attack from what we've seen. So unless one thinks that Obito activated it prior to Amaterasu hitting(which wouldn't make sense with him screaming in agony), then Izanagi shouldn't have worked in that situation. Even if it would, we know for sure it can't heal injuries prior to Izanagi being used(Tobi vs Konan), so Obito's injuries prior to using it should still have been there. There is also the problem with Itachi knowing about Izanagi.


----------



## Kronin (Dec 10, 2012)

Well, saying the truth Tobi's mysterious survival in the databook was hinted being connected to his space-manipulations by the words of the narrator (but we know that in cases vague like this, often the databook is contradicted by the future development of the manga like could be just the introduction of Izanagi...)

Anyway I really can't say the way used by Obito to save himself, but surely seems me strange that an Izanagi used after a succesfull hit is able to eliminate the effects of it...


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Dec 10, 2012)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> Izanagi cannot work on a preexisting injury or attack from what we've seen. So unless one thinks that Obito activated it prior to Amaterasu hitting(which wouldn't make sense with him screaming in agony), then Izanagi shouldn't have worked in that situation. Even if it would, we know for sure it can't heal injuries prior to Izanagi being used(Tobi vs Konan), so Obito's injuries prior to using it should still have been there. There is also the problem with Itachi knowing about Izanagi.



Izanagi cannot work on a preexisting injury, maybe.

But there's nothing to indicate it couldn't be utilized after a preexisting attack.(That's a barrier in which you've implanted, in which you have no concrete argument or evidence to solidify)

Amaterasu isn't blunt force trauma. It's means of damaging is corrosive, it's effects upon a shinobi is "DOT"

Amaterasu used against Danzo........

And Izanagi allowed Danzo to reemerge without the presence of the flames.

Seeing as Kamui has showcased the ability to get ride of the flames and  Kamui hasn't.....Commons sense and evidence is in favor of Izanagi opposed to Kamui.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Dec 10, 2012)

Obito can use Izanagi to remove the flames, that is what Danzo did.

Maybe Obito can use Izanagi to repair his face


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (Dec 10, 2012)

Databook argument is void as that panel explicitly raises the question of. It runs all of "Madara"'s powers together, but the databook explicitly raises the question of mystery about how he managed to survive Izanagi. It says "is this another one of Madara's abilities?" Which suggests that it is not the same ability we had already seen.


----------



## KyuubiYondaime (Dec 10, 2012)

Wouldn't surprise me if he used Izanagi and didn't go blind due to Hashi's genes.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Dec 10, 2012)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Databook argument is void as that panel explicitly raises the question of. It runs all of "Madara"'s powers together, but the databook explicitly raises the question of mystery about how he managed to survive Izanagi. It says "is this another one of Madara's abilities?" Which suggests that it is not the same ability we had already seen.



Also the only thing cited by that panel in I quote is, "He has the power to deflect all attacks, his body unscathed due to Itachi's Amaterasu, and vanish through the air a though transcending time and space.

Doesn't the quote also describe Izanagi as well?

After all it does deflect all attacks....

It's actually showcased ON PANEL the ability to allow one to escaped Amaterasu UNSCATHED by vanishing through the air as though transencing time and space.


----------



## BlinkST (Dec 10, 2012)

Pathos Grim said:


> Obito can use Izanagi to remove the flames, that is what Danzo did.


 He would have to use Izanagi *before* the flames hit. 


And it's implied that the Izanagi eye needs to be _*exposed*_ in order for it to work.


----------



## Rikudou No Sennin (Dec 10, 2012)

Because his Tobi?


----------



## shintebukuro (Dec 10, 2012)

BlinkST said:
			
		

> He would have to use Izanagi before the flames hit.



Is it ever implied anywhere that Izanagi _cannot_ be used retroactively to reset one's condition?


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## SubtleObscurantist (Dec 10, 2012)

Izanagi doesn't need to be used before Amaterasu hits. They are flames, so the damage they do is through burning. And unless the caster is focusing the flames, and Sasuke couldn't because he didn't know what was happening, they are somewhat slow burning.

Izanagi merely has to be used before it does damage for it to restore Obito unscathed.


----------



## Mephissto (Dec 10, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Is it ever implied anywhere that Izanagi _cannot_ be used retroactively to reset one's condition?



Lol of course. 
The whole danzou fight is basically about this.
Also in Obito vs Konan, Obito was still heavily damaged after Izanagi.

It is damn obvious it is kamui, guys really.

Obito can phase his body/bodyparts into the other dimension.
Amatersu hits his arm, Obito phases arm away. There is no reason to believe Amaterasu would go with him. Obito chooses what to teleport.



SubtleObscurantist said:


> Izanagi doesn't need to be used before Amaterasu hits. They are flames, so the damage they do is through burning. And unless the caster is focusing the flames, and Sasuke couldn't because he didn't know what was happening, they are somewhat slow burning.
> 
> Izanagi merely has to be used before it does damage for it to restore Obito unscathed.




ITT: 
People saying it can't be Kamui since there would have to be burn marks on Obito.
Same people saying it has to be Izanagi since he could have just activated it before there were visible burn marks.


----------



## T-Bag (Dec 10, 2012)

†_Camorra_† said:


> Konan didnt knew about Izanagi, she knew that when you combine Senju and Uchiha powers you will get the powers of the 6 paths, thats it she did not mention Izanagi.
> Fact is Itachi knew about Izanagi so you are wrong, its Kamui that was unknown to him. There is nothing stoping Obito to just warp the flames into Kamui's dimension,its way easier then sacrificing an eye for Izanagi.
> Everything points towards Kamui.



everybody CLOSE to tobi knows about kamui jutsu, so itachi not knowing about kamui is out of the question.

he spams it all the time. sorry, that aint no secret that would slip through itachi.

itachi knows what izanagi is, but he didn't know tobi could use it. you didn't either until chapter 500+ 



Geijutsu said:


> What? she didn't know about Izanagi itself, Tobi had to explain it for her, the only thing she knew was that a combination of Uchiha and Senju equals Rikudou Sennin's power, which she expressed after Tobi told her Izanagi uses the power of both.



again, itachi was not aware he was a rikudou, and neither were you. That was tobi's secret that he kept even from his closest associates. that includes itachi. 



Closet Pervert said:


> Unaware of _Uchiha Madara_ having it? The master of Uchiha Kinjutsu?



nobody knew madara had become rikudou , period. that was one of his biggest reveals of the manga.

he didn't even know he was obito. 

what are the chances he knew obito has a huge stock of sharingan.. the friend even runs around with 1 eye instead of 2. cmon



> Regardless, i highly doubt the secret Tobi was thinking that saved him from the Amaterasu was Izanagi, since Itachi knows everything about Izanagi and was  mentored by Tobi.Konan and Itachi are different, because Itachi knew the Uchiha kept abusing Izanagi so much they actually had to create a counter Izanami against it. Itachi knew many Uchiha had it.
> I suppose it's plausible. But i still think if Tobi had time to use Izanagi he had time to use S/T.



nope. amat. hit him, that's a fact. and he burned for a good while. unless it takes him that long to absorb flames, no way. s/t jutsu is fast isn't? shouldn't have taken no where near that long. it's almost instant. not too mention he came out the flames unscathed. 

UNSCATHED. why do ppl ignore this? s/t jutsu doesnt renew you.

whatever it was he used to escape amatarasu, it sure as hell wasn't kamui. izanagi is much more likely given the description and from plot perspective


----------



## BlinkST (Dec 10, 2012)

shintebukuro said:


> Is it ever implied anywhere that Izanagi _cannot_ be used retroactively to reset one's condition?


Yeah, back when Danzo's cut didn't heal. 
Link removed
Link removed

And of course as mentioned, the whole Obito vs Konan thing.


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## Mephissto (Dec 10, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> UNSCATHED. why do ppl ignore this? s/t jutsu doesnt renew you.
> 
> whatever it was he used to escape amatarasu, it sure as hell wasn't kamui. izanagi is much more likely given the description and from plot perspective



Izanagi doesn't either. At least not if you don't activate it before.




T-Bag said:


> everybody CLOSE to tobi knows about kamui jutsu,




Proof?


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## T-Bag (Dec 10, 2012)

Mephissto said:


> Izanagi doesn't either. At least not if you don't activate it before.



tobi had time to use* pre*-damage

1. mask was off
2. noticed the sharingan go offensive






> Proof?


common sense. 

who exactly does he hide that jutsu from? oh right nobody. its the 1 jutsu he has


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## Mephissto (Dec 10, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> tobi had time to use* pre*-damage
> 
> 1. mask was off
> 2. noticed the sharingan go offensive
> ...



Saying common sense is not proof. We have never seen Obito showcasing his jutsu to really anyone except when he was in danger.

Also if there was plenty of time for Obito to react and use Izanagi in time, as you say... Why wouldn't he have kamui'd instead then?

If you say he had time to react the logical jutsu to use would be Kamui, *this* is common sense.

You guys contradict yourself all the time.


*You guys say he had no time to use Kamui so he needed Izanagi.*

You say it can't be Kamui since there are no burn marks, it has to be Izanagi.

I say there should have been burn mark with Izanagi either, since he would have to use it beforehand.

*You say no, he reacted fast enough to use Izanagi before being hit.*


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## SubtleObscurantist (Dec 10, 2012)

Mephissto said:


> ITT:
> People saying it can't be Kamui since there would have to be burn marks on Obito.
> Same people saying it has to be Izanagi since he could have just activated it before there were visible burn marks.



That isn't actually why I am saying it isn't Kamui. I am saying it was Izanagi for other reasons and then working backwards to settle the issue of whether or not Kamui was feasible.


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## T-Bag (Dec 10, 2012)

Mephissto said:


> Saying common sense is not proof. We have never seen Obito showcasing his jutsu to really anyone except when he was in danger.



every fight. lol...



> Also if there was plenty of time for Obito to react and use Izanagi in time, as you say... Why wouldn't he have kamui'd instead then?


ask him that. why didn't he phase through? because he didn't



> If you say he had time to react the logical jutsu to use would be Kamui, *this* is common sense.


except the manga disagrees. he didn't phase through like he logically should have



> You guys contradict yourself all the time.


me or you?




> *You guys say he had no time to use Kamui so he needed Izanagi.*
> 
> You say it can't be Kamui since there are no burn marks, it has to be Izanagi.
> 
> *I say there should have been burn mark with Izanagi either, since he would have to use it beforehand.*



no way. izanagi erases all disadvantages starting when it's used



> *You say no, he reacted fast enough to use Izanagi before being hit.*



that's what i just said. he didn't use kamui because he didn't. and kamui is no *secret* to itachi

^ that alone should tell you something


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## Mephissto (Dec 11, 2012)

See, this clearly shows you are biased. You rather say he didn't do the logical thing just because your opinion on the matter is different. You prefer to say he just didn't use Kamui for some reason(???) and used Izanagi instead. You assume the illogical thing just to fit your argument.                                                                                                  Fact is: If there was time to activate Izanagi, he could have activated Kamui also. He didn't right away, so he neither used Kamui nor Izanagi beforehand. If you dissagree, Troll elsewhere, this is not an opinion but a fact.                                                                 So knowing this he had to use either Kamui or Izanagi after being hit, so the burn marks argument is moot at this point, since He should have them after either of them.           Good, follow me? The databook alone prooves it is Kamui but it seems you rather argue against what canon says. Tobi can phase his Body/bodyparts into another dimension at will. It doesn't matter if he burns, the flames are not part of his body. There is just no logical reason for the flames to go with him, Obito decides what phases/teleports.   Sorry for Wall of text I am writing on my smartphone.


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## ?_Camorra_? (Dec 11, 2012)

T-Bag said:


> everybody CLOSE to tobi knows about kamui jutsu, so itachi not knowing about kamui is out of the question.
> 
> he spams it all the time. sorry, that aint no secret that would slip through itachi.
> 
> ...



Itachi knows that Tobi has a space-time jutsu but he doesent know the mechanics of the jutsu or has ever heard of it since Kamui is unique to Obito while Izanagi was spamed by countless Uchihas in the past.
It makes far more sense that Kamui was Obito's secret from Itachi.
Besides you forget that Amaterasu burns slowly, it couldnt even burn Samurai armor, what makes you think its gonna burn Obito's clothes that fast ?


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## Kronin (Dec 11, 2012)

I agree with Camorra, also if Obito spammed his jutsu in every fights, actually who has learned the mechanism of the jutsu was just Kakashi with a good amount of lucky (not being alone to fight Obito, having the same jutsu of the adversary, and actually create fortunately a circumstance where Tobi was wounded exposing his jutsu - I talk about the kunai "raikirized" -).

Also Konan that studied the masked man through the years and learned his 5 minutes time limit, talk about intangibility describing his power, so showing to not learn neither her exactly what is Obito' space-time manipulation-

More than exposing the eye (rule that seems implicitely confirmed but in any cases Obito during Sasuke's attack had the left eye uncovered tied to the fall of the mask), Izanagi need to make the hand seals to activate the jutsu, and this off course before any attack that the user wish avoid. Is this that in my opinion don't make the use of Izanagi believable in that occasion.


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## arokh (Dec 11, 2012)

He had no time to activate Izanagi. I'd say he used kamui's intangibility on his body. There would be nothing left for amaterasu to burn and it would go out by itself. As others have pointed out, amaterasu is not part of his body so it would not follow to kamui dimension. I know clothes aren't either, but hey this is a manga after all not everything have to make perfect sense.


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## T-Bag (Dec 11, 2012)

alright ima take sometime off this thread, cant bear the ignorance anymore


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## SubtleObscurantist (Dec 11, 2012)

Yeah, the same arguments keep being repeated and addressed.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 2, 2013)

*Obito used Izanagi to survive Itachi's Amaterasu.*

I know this isn't really the right time for this or anything.

I just wanted to do a check-up and make sure we're all in agreement on this now. 


----------


*Surviving Amaterasu Off-Panel?*


Obito is ignited by Itachi's trap Amaterasu and reacts in pain. We see his mask drop to the floor:

super speed against Sandaime Raikage

He stumbles back into the darkness *where we can't see him* and continues screaming until he is silenced:

super speed against Sandaime Raikage

Note: This was after we had already seen Obito's Kamui and BEFORE we knew about Izanagi, let alone that he was a user of it. Obito then claims it was some "secret" that allowed him to survive:

super speed against Sandaime Raikage

I think we can all agree that Kamui is by no means a secret; its exact mechanics and weaknesses may be, but it is the Jutsu Obito uses more than any other. Also, because we knew about it by this point, there would have been no reason for him to refer to Kamui as a secret rather than just come right out and say that he fazed through Amaterasu or warped the flames away. There would certainly be no reason for Kishimoto to have Obito stumble out of our sight and survive the Jutsu in a place *where we can't see how he did it* after we've seen him faze and teleport things before.

Plus, if it really was just Kamui, wouldn't Obito's reaction seem a bit...unusual? He fazes through shit all the time like it's no big deal. How did this knock him on his ass, and why was he screaming? For that matter, why was he so impressed with Itachi if all it took to rectify the situation was something Obito can do casually all the time? Kamui just doesn't make sense.

So what's the only other technique Obito has that fits here?


*"A Shocking Forbidden Technique!"*


Itachi evidently knew Obito's abilities well, as Obito stated that he kept secrets "even from Itachi," as if that were some kind of special accomplishment. But Izanagi is a Jutsu even Konan didn't know about, despite apparently being familiar enough with Obito to deduce the limits of his Kamui:

A Shocking Forbidden Technique!

It is also the Jutsu Obito used to escape what appeared to be certain death for him in Konan's paper bomb ocean.


*Unmasking the Truth*


Now look at this:

A Shocking Forbidden Technique!

A Shocking Forbidden Technique!

^Right after being prevented from using Kamui to save himself, and after Konan declares her impending attack, Obito REACHES TO REMOVE HIS MASK. This was right before he used Izanagi to survive the paper bombs.

You can see that his Izanagi eye was uncovered afterwards; the piece of his mask blocking it had been removed:

A Shocking Forbidden Technique!

We saw that Danzou had to uncover his Sharingan-filled arm to use Izanagi as well:

A Shocking Forbidden Technique!

A Shocking Forbidden Technique!


----------


A "secret" technique that requires Obito to uncover his eye, possessing the power to save him from apparent certain death, which even someone very familiar with Obito's abilities did not know about...

It has not been confirmed yet, but the evidence makes it pretty clear:

Obito used Izanagi to survive Amaterasu.


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## Scarlet Ammo (Jul 2, 2013)

Wait...he did what? When? 

Edit: ah, nvm. Thought that was a sig.


A REALLY long sig


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## Rosi (Jul 2, 2013)

I don't understand why that even matters  Obito still lol'ed at Itachi's sneak attack and called him a failure afterwards.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 2, 2013)

Rainbow Cake said:


> Wait...he did what? When?



Read my post. 

Or just the manga.

Why even ask that when I just went through the trouble of posting links?



Rosi said:


> I don't understand why that even matters  Obito still lol'ed at Itachi's sneak attack and called him a failure afterwards.



That isn't the issue here.

For a long time, it's been disputed HOW Obito survived. Lots of people believed he just used Kamui.

It's pretty obvious at this point that he used Izanagi instead.


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## mrsaphen (Jul 2, 2013)

I still ask myself why didn't he just use kamui?


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## machiavelli2009 (Jul 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> [sp]I know this isn't really the right time for this or anything.
> 
> I just wanted to do a check-up and make sure we're all in agreement on this now.
> 
> ...



correct. What people dont realise is that if kamui was used and he phased through wont the  cave be on fire
if he used kamui to wrap it to his dimension, wont kamui dimension be on fire. How did he put out the fire, dont enton flames spread. The only way obito can put out the fire is by dying from them 
since he has no other  *SHOWN* way of putting out the flames


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## The Faceless Man (Jul 2, 2013)

He just used kamui to get rid of amaterasu... Its not that hard , why the hell would use izanagi when he has an easy way to get out


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## CyberianGinseng (Jul 2, 2013)

Kamui wouldn't explain why his clothing wasn't even lightly toasted.


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## Rosi (Jul 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> That isn't the issue here.
> 
> For a long time, it's been disputed HOW Obito survived. Lots of people believed he just used Kamui.
> 
> It's pretty obvious at this point that he used Izanagi instead.



Why at this point though? How did anything change? He could've still well used Kamui somehow. Kishi probably didn't even come up with Izanagi at that point.

It's also interesting that Obito came out unscratched, which wouldn't be the case with Izanagi as he already had flames on his clothes when he supposedly activated it. With Konan he had a little time to prepare it. With sneak Amaterasu though, he obviously didn't. But if that's the case, well, Obito has one hell of a reaction speed


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## Scarlet Ammo (Jul 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Read my post.
> 
> Or just the manga.
> 
> Why even ask that when I just went through the trouble of posting links?



Ah, sorry. I saw the "__________" and thought it was your sig.

Then again a sig is never that long so I guess I derped up. sorry


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## Nikushimi (Jul 2, 2013)

alexu9696 said:


> He just used kamui to get rid of amaterasu... Its not that hard , why the hell would use izanagi when he has an easy way to get out



*Because he doesn't.*

That's the point.

Kamui can't warp the flames away when they are burning on his body.

Did you even read my post?



Rosi said:


> Why at this point though? How did anything change?



Just a combination of my random curiosity and the fact that we've pretty much seen the limits of Kamui by now.



> He could've still well used Kamui somehow.



Really? 'Cause if you've got an explanation to address all of the reasons I just pointed out why that wouldn't make sense, I'm happy to listen. I sure don't have such an explanation.



> Kishi probably didn't even come up with Izanagi at that point.



What is the basis for this claim?



> It's also interesting that Obito came out unscratched, which wouldn't be the case with Izanagi as he already had flames on his clothes when he supposedly activated it.



We didn't see when Obito activated it, exactly. But he fell back into the shadows the second Amaterasu hit him, so it's not like it had much time to do anything.

And it's not like Amaterasu isn't notorious for its inconsistent burning feats, anyway.


----------



## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jul 2, 2013)

Yeah, I already figured it was Izanagi. That doesn't mean that Itachi is stronger than Obito, however. Just saying.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 2, 2013)

KisameHoshigaki said:


> Yeah, I already figured it was Izanagi. That doesn't mean that Itachi is stronger than Obito, however. Just saying.



Which has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 2, 2013)

He didn't use Izanagi. It would've been highlighted if he did. Plus he got hit then used whatever he used; in that condition Izanagi wouldn't work. 

He could've done what the Juubi did with his Mokuton body.


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## MysteriousD (Jul 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Just a combination of my random curiosity and the fact that *we've pretty much seen the limits of Kamui by now.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wait till Obito gets TnJ'd and redeemed and give Kakashi his other eye.... then we will see just how *un*limited Kamui's hax is

BTW if u think chakra for both eyes would be a problem call doctor Naruto


----------



## machiavelli2009 (Jul 2, 2013)

KisameHoshigaki said:


> Yeah, I already figured it was Izanagi. That doesn't mean that Itachi is stronger than Obito, however. Just saying.



No it doesn't OP isn't suggesting that 

However to those saying he used kamui??
*where on earth did the flames go??
kamui version 1) he phases, the flames land on the floor, burning the cave
Kamui version 2) he wraps it to his dimesion, the flames remain there since obito has no way of putting them out. No proof that the flames can't exist in that dimension. *

kakashi did after all wrap a rasengan in that dimension, a jutsu just like amaterasu is 

therefore kamui version 2 will simply put the flames in kamui dimension 
This is obviously not the case since the flames were never seen in that dimension 

therefore conclusion he used izanagi

people this thread isn't suggesting itachi> obito so dont panic


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## The Faceless Man (Jul 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> *Because he doesn't.*
> 
> That's the point.
> 
> ...



yes i read it and i think tobi could kamui his body without the flames and amaterasu would have just fall off... I belive the scene of burning and sceaming is because tobi had to concentrate on what to kamui so he gets rid of the flames , also being a suprise attack izanagi would not work... Not being activated at the point of amaterasu hit so izanagi is out of the question


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## Nikushimi (Jul 2, 2013)

Rosi said:


> With Konan he had a little time to prepare it. With sneak Amaterasu though, he obviously didn't. But if that's the case, well, Obito has one hell of a reaction speed



Yes, Obito's reaction time is impressive.

He did notice the Mangekyou Sharingan bleeding from Sasuke's eye before Amaterasu ignited.

And it's not like he couldn't activate Izanagi while he's on fire, so yeah. There was time.

Like I implied, that was pretty much the whole point of having him fall back into the darkness where we couldn't see what he was doing.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 2, 2013)

If Obito can absorb explosions, then it isn't a stretch to assume he could simply absorb Amaterasu. That's another alternative to the Juubi-style split using Mokuton. 

Izanagi was used when someone with knowledge on Kamui exploited its weak points. Itachi was still under the impression that Obito was the Perfect Susnaoo, EMS user Madara Uchiha. He hoped to catch him off-guard.
However if you read his talk with Naruto, then you'll know that not even Itachi expected his plan to work. 

You can call "Izanagi". But then you need to prove Itachi knew the mechanisms of Kamui and came up with Tensa Fuuin: Amaterasu in response to that.


If your point relies on Obito activating Izanagi while he was on fire, then you've automatically shot your point down. Seeing as Izanagi wouldn't work in that instance.


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## machiavelli2009 (Jul 2, 2013)

alexu9696 said:


> yes i read it and i think tobi could kamui his body without the flames and amaterasu would have just fall off... I belive the scene of burning and sceaming is because tobi had to concentrate on what to kamui so he gets rid of the flames , also being a suprise attack izanagi would not work... Not being activated at the point of amaterasu hit so izanagi is out of the question



if he used kamui where did the flames go
they would have to be either in the cave or in kamui dimension thats how kamui works depending on how he used it 

so before saying kamui where did the flames go ?? if obito left the cave to go to kamui land, the flames would have fallen on the cave. 

if he absorbed them where are the flames in kamui land?? they wont just vanish, rasengan didnt suddenly vanish when it got to kamui land

just saying


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## Nikushimi (Jul 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He didn't use Izanagi. It would've been highlighted if he did.



It was highlighted...via the mask coming off, like we saw when he fought Konan.

And Konan just happened to be someone who knew his capabilities and she also just happened to be completely in the dark about Izanagi, and that Jutsu just happened to be Obito's answer to a prepared trap Jutsu that was about to kill him.

Kishimoto did everything short of coming out and explicitly saying "Obito used Izanagi to survive Itachi's Amaterasu back then."



> Plus he got hit then used whatever he used; in that condition Izanagi wouldn't work.



Obito disappeared from view before Amaterasu had done any damage, so there would've still been time for him to save himself with Izanagi; the only damage he would sustain would be whatever he got before Izanagi activated, which wouldn't be much if he activated it quickly.



> He could've done what the Juubi did with his Mokuton body.



Possible, but Obito has not shown such an ability. Morever...wouldn't that rip off his clothes?



MysteriousD said:


> Wait till Obito gets TnJ'd and redeemed and give Kakashi his other eye.... then we will see just how *un*limited Kamui's hax is
> 
> BTW if u think chakra for both eyes would be a problem call doctor Naruto



What does any of this have to do with what I said?



alexu9696 said:


> yes i read it and i think tobi could kamui his body without the flames and amaterasu would have just fall off... I belive the scene of burning and sceaming is because tobi had to concentrate on what to kamui so he gets rid of the flames ,



Obito warps himself all the time without having to "concentrate." Why would he waste time using Kamui on the flames if he could seperate himself from it with that Jutsu?



> also being a suprise attack izanagi would not work... Not being activated at the point of amaterasu hit so izanagi is out of the question



Izanagi can negate anything that happens after its activation. Obito wasn't a goner yet; Amaterasu hadn't killed him yet. There was time for him to activate Izanagi and prevent the flames from spreading and destroying his body for real.


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## First Tsurugi (Jul 2, 2013)

This should have been obvious the moment we learned what Izanagi is. vOv


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## MysteriousD (Jul 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> It was highlighted...via the mask coming off, like we saw when he fought Konan.
> 
> And Konan just happened to be someone who knew his capabilities and she also just happened to be completely in the dark about Izanagi, and that Jutsu just happened to be Obito's answer to a prepared trap Jutsu that was about to kill him.
> 
> ...



Well you said "*we've pretty much seen the limits of Kamui by now.*" and I respectfully disagreed I still think there is more to come.

As to address the thread, I agree with you Izanagi makes sense thats why I didnt really say anything about that


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## Nikushimi (Jul 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If Obito can absorb explosions, then it isn't a stretch to assume he could simply absorb Amaterasu. That's another alternative to the Juubi-style split using Mokuton.



Obito was injured when he tried to absorb Konan's suicide attack.

Remember, he has to materialize to warp things, including himself.



> Izanagi was used when someone with knowledge on Kamui exploited its weak points. Itachi was still under the impression that Obito was the Perfect Susnaoo, EMS user Madara Uchiha. He hoped to catch him off-guard.



While this may be true, Itachi was also the one who pointed out that Obito was a shell compared to the original Madara. He was the only one to ever independently track Obito down...he evidently TRAINED under Obito at some point...and even committed the Uchiha massacre with his assistance.

It's extremely unlikely Itachi never once noticed Obito use Kamui after all of that, particularly given how frequently and openly Obito uses it, as well as the fact that a nobody like Konan had apparently seen it enough times to figure out its limits. Itachi even mentioned that he had witnessed Obito's ability to pass through Konoha's barrier undetected, which may or may not have been Obito using Kamui.



> However if you read his talk with Naruto, then you'll know that not even Itachi expected his plan to work.



Maybe so. Or he was just being extra-cautious because...Madara.

Either way, Obito attributed his survival to *something Itachi did not know about*.



> You can call "Izanagi". But then you need to prove Itachi knew the mechanisms of Kamui and came up with Tensa Fuuin: Amaterasu in response to that.



That can't be proven or disproven at this point, but you have to admit it's at least a plausible explanation considering that Konan knew those mechanisms and developed her own special technique to deal with the Jutsu. And Konan is not someone special who Obito confided all his secrets in or demonstrated his techniques for. She just happened to pick this stuff up from her time in Akatsuki. Someone as insightful and well-informed as Itachi surely would've noticed _something_.



> If your point relies on Obito activating Izanagi while he was on fire, then you've automatically shot your point down. Seeing as Izanagi wouldn't work in that instance.



Why not? Amaterasu didn't kill Obito instantly, so why would activating the Jutsu not save him?



MysteriousD said:


> Well you said "*we've pretty much seen the limits of Kamui by now.*" and I respectfully disagreed I still think there is more to come.



Oh, okay then.


----------



## mrsaphen (Jul 2, 2013)

machiavelli2009 said:


> No it doesn't OP isn't suggesting that
> 
> However to those saying he used kamui??
> *where on earth did the flames go??
> ...



Amaterasu burns for 7 days and nights.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 2, 2013)

mrsaphen said:


> Amaterasu burns for 7 days and nights.



Or until the target is destroyed.

And if the target dies and suddenly ceases to exist and then respawns somewhere else nearby...the flames disappear.


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## T-Bag (Jul 2, 2013)

This was obvious from the get-go. even in the naruto movie it is implied itachi can bypass tobi's kamui ability with amatarasu.


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## The Prodigy (Jul 2, 2013)

This should be obvious Niku. Anyone who says otherwise are clearly wrong and/or ignorant to how Kamui works.


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## mrsaphen (Jul 2, 2013)

T-Bag said:


> even in the naruto movie it is implied itachi can bypass tobi's kamui ability with amatarasu.



Was it? Proof please


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## Nikushimi (Jul 2, 2013)

T-Bag said:


> This was obvious from the get-go. even in the naruto movie it is implied itachi can bypass tobi's kamui ability with amatarasu.



And didn't Kishimoto write that movie?

Yeah... He has done everything except tell is Obito needed Izanagi to survive. I look forward to the next databook when he does.



The Prodigy said:


> This should be obvious Niku. Anyone who says otherwise are clearly wrong and/or ignorant to how Kamui works.



I think so, too.

I made this thread to show people the evidence and try to explain why it suggests Izanagi, but it seems like most of them didn't even read it.

Oh well.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> It was highlighted...via the mask coming off, like we saw when he fought Konan.
> 
> And Konan just happened to be someone who knew his capabilities and she also just happened to be completely in the dark about Izanagi, and that Jutsu just happened to be Obito's answer to a prepared trap Jutsu that was about to kill him.
> 
> Kishimoto did everything short of coming out and explicitly saying "Obito used Izanagi to survive Itachi's Amaterasu back then."



It was only highlighted that Obito attempted to do some mind control via the mask coming off back then. With Konan, he deemed Kamui useless and resorted to his last resort: Izanagi. That same atmosphere was not created with the surprise Amaterasu.

Kishimoto is very explicit when he hints such things. He would've even provided a little flashback to the last time Obito used it. Further the atmosphere created when Obito said he would've been killed if not for his secret, was the same one created when Nagato said it.

In Nagato's case, if Jiraiya went to Nagato with the Genjutsu whilst he was unaware. In Obito's case, if Itachi knew all his abilities, he could've tailored his Fuuinjutsu to target Obito's particular abilities. Seeing as a Fuuinjutsu can be programmed to react to certain things. 

However there is heavy emphasis that Obito's abilities were unknown to Itachi, so Kamui or even Mokuton would've been adequate 'solutions'. Izanagi, as I mention below, would've been impossible. 



> Obito disappeared from view before Amaterasu had done any damage, so there would've still been time for him to save himself with Izanagi; the only damage he would sustain would be whatever he got before Izanagi activated, which wouldn't be much if he activated it quickly.



Amaterasu was _on_ him. If he used Izanagi then, it would just restore him to the state he was in when he used Izanagi... when he was on fire. It would've failed.

Before Obito understood everything, he was on fire. I.E. no time for Izanagi.



> Possible, but Obito has not shown such an ability. Morever...wouldn't that rip off his clothes?



Possibly. However if it was his cave, he arguably had some Zetsu thing in the darkness.


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## T-Bag (Jul 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> And didn't Kishimoto write that movie?
> 
> Yeah... He has done everything except tell is Obito needed Izanagi to survive. I look forward to the next databook when he does.
> 
> ...



yessirr.

they want this kamui technique to be an answer for everything (lol) just because it looks awesome. anyway you pretty much nailed it in the thread why it's izanagi. 

THE FACT that it was obito's TRUMP CARD "SECRET" should pretty much spell it out for them. kamui is no secret, especially to someone like itachi who he worked directly with. 1 + 1 = 2


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 2, 2013)

T-Bag said:


> This was obvious from the get-go. even in the naruto movie it is implied itachi can bypass tobi's kamui ability with amatarasu.



No such implication was given. This is only one interpretation you choose to subscribe to. Someone else could easily play the same game and say Obito (who already knows of Itachi's inferiority) chose not to waste his energy fighting Itachi. 

That interpretation is more consistent with canon. In canon, Obito played Itachi by leaving him alone, as Itachi allowed Obito's plan to unfold nicely. 
Likewise in the movie, leaving Itachi alone helped Obito's plan unfold nicely.


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## T-Bag (Jul 2, 2013)

itachi is not inferior lmao. it was only assumed he was because he was disguised as "uchiha madara" 

obito is inferior, thats why he hid behind shadows while itachi hunted motherfuckers, like the 9 tails (strongest of all the bijuus)


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## Nikushimi (Jul 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It was only highlighted that Obito attempted to do some mind control via the mask coming off back then.



What are you talking about? Mind control? Where? 



> With Konan, he deemed Kamui useless and resorted to his last resort: Izanagi. That same atmosphere was not created with the surprise Amaterasu.



It sure looks the same to me. Trap Jutsu.-->Obito removes his mask and goes off-panel.-->It seems like he died.-->Oops, not really.



> Kishimoto is very explicit when he hints such things. He would've even provided a little flashback to the last time Obito used it.



Possible but not necessary; if we do get confirmation later that Obito survived with Izanagi then I would still maintain that Kishi did quite a lot to make it obvious beforehand.



> Further the atmosphere created when Obito said he would've been killed if not for his secret, was the same one created when Nagato said it.



But Obito and Nagato have different secrets that could've been exploited in different ways by different opponents.



> In Nagato's case, if Jiraiya went to Nagato with the Genjutsu whilst he was unaware. In Obito's case, if Itachi knew all his abilities, he could've tailored his Fuuinjutsu to target Obito's particular abilities. Seeing as a Fuuinjutsu can be programmed to react to certain things.



So if these secrets could've been exploited differently (and I don't even agree with you about either of them), what is the point of this analogy in the first place?



> However there is heavy emphasis that Obito's abilities were unknown to Itachi, so Kamui or even Mokuton would've been adequate 'solutions'. Izanagi, as I mention below, would've been impossible.



I don't see any emphasis that Obito's abilities were unknown to Itachi; Obito seems to have implied the opposite by saying he managed to keep secrets "even from Itachi."

The only secret Obito even has besides his identity is Izanagi and having Senju DNA. So I guess Mokuton would be a secret, but that still doesn't explain why Obito took so long to save himself or why his clothes weren't ripped open the way Danzou's were.



> Amaterasu was _on_ him. If he used Izanagi then, it would just restore him to the state he was in when he used Izanagi... when he was on fire. It would've failed.
> 
> Before Obito understood everything, he was on fire. I.E. no time for Izanagi.



I understand what you mean now, but Izanagi does not restore the body to its condition before Izanagi- it negates things that are harmful to the caster while it keeps the things that are useful. It makes the enemy's attacks only an illusion while keeping the caster's as part of reality. It is _selective reality_, not simply rewinding.



> Possibly. However if it was his cave, he arguably had some Zetsu thing in the darkness.



...And a new black jumpsuit? 

If it has gotten to the point where the only explanation is "He had a completely seperate plot device in the darkness that saved him and repaired his damage to make it look like Amaterasu did nothing," it's probably just better to accept that Izanagi is the most likely answer.

Nothing indicates that Zetsu was in that cave, let alone some magical "Zetsu thing." I don't even know what that would be or how it would help him.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 2, 2013)

T-Bag said:


> itachi is not inferior lmao. it was only assumed he was because he was disguised as "uchiha madara"
> 
> obito is inferior, thats why he hid behind shadows while itachi hunted motherfuckers, like the 9 tails (strongest of all the bijuus)



He gauged Obito's power from his eyes. From that he deduced "Madara". So the inferiority point stands. 

Your second point lacks relevance and meaning. 

One large indicator is that Obito didn't give the impression that it took a lot to shrug off Amaterasu. Whereas when Izanagi was used, it suggested that it took a lot out of Obito. 

Itachi's ultimate offence jutsu aren't a threat to Obito it seems. Reviewing the arguments, it is doubtful Izanagi was even used. Your main point is your personal interpretation of a movie; with no supplementary evidence. Such evidence isn't strong at all.


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## Mephissto (Jul 2, 2013)

I disagree. It was just Kamui.
Izanagi needs to be activated before getting damaged.

Also it would make no sense also for Itachi (who knows about Izanagi and Izanami) to think that Uchiha Madara out of all Uchiha's would not have access to it.

Kamui is* more *"secret" to Itachi than Izanagi.


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## Krippy (Jul 2, 2013)

Yeah, it's pretty obvious that it wasn't Kamui


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## mrsaphen (Jul 2, 2013)

T-Bag said:


> obito is inferior, thats why he hid behind shadows while itachi hunted motherfuckers, like the 9 tails (strongest of all the bijuus)



The kyuubi? Don't you mean Madara and Obito's bitch?


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He gauged Obito's power from his   eyes. From that he deduced "Madara". So the inferiority point stands.



Obito said Itachi knew almost everything about him, Itachi thus  would  have known almost everything about Obito's capabilities. Even  then,  even after "Madara's" lie about being weakened by "his" battle with   Hashirama, Itachi admitted inferiority to him   and resorted to using a trap that Itachi didn't really think was going   to work anyway.

But the interesting part is that Itachi knew  "almost" everything, that  there were secrets that Obito kept from him,  which means that Obito was  actually more powerful than Itachi suspected.



Krippy said:


> Yeah, it's pretty obvious that it wasn't Kamui



Hmm, you should had looked at what Mephissto posted before you:


*Spoiler*: __ 





Mephissto said:


> I disagree. It was just Kamui.
> Izanagi needs to be activated before getting damaged.
> 
> Also it would make no sense also for Itachi (who knows about Izanagi and Izanami) to think that Uchiha Madara out of all Uchiha's would not have access to it.
> ...








mrsaphen said:


> The kyuubi? Don't you mean Madara and Obito's bitch?



Yes.


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## Fear (Jul 2, 2013)

It's pretty ambiguous as to what Obito did to survive the Amaterasu, it could've been Izanagi _or _Kamui.

Let me break it down; 

Once the flames hit Obito, it was in it's nature for it to stay or stick if you like, on him until he was burnt out of existence. Now, even if he used Kamui and warped into a whole different dimension, he would enter with the _still_ activated Amaterasu, there's no denying that. _However,_ Kamui is a very unique Jutsu, that can allow a user such as Obito with his mastery of it to apply it to only certain parts of his body, as seen many times before. So it is _possible_ that he just warped away the flames into the dimension parallel to Kamui. And before anyone says ''Well wouldn't the flames just burn the dimensio out of existence?'' Nobody knows, because we don't know how that dimension is made, and if Obito could easily rebuild it even if that was the case.

Now lets talk about Izanagi, which I probably lean more towards of what was used to survive Amaterasu. Let's look at the_ indications, _like another said, his mask came off, likewise to that of when he used it against Konan. It's_ highly possible _that he just used Izanagi, and the black flames incinerated his previous body and disappeared. Someone also mentioned how Obito came back _unscathed, _not having a single ounce of damage on his body.

So looking back at the facts I just mentioned, Izanagi is more likely the Justu he used to survive Amaterasu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 2, 2013)

I thought this was obvious for a long time. 

Even when I didn't know about Izanagi, I knew he used a different kind of a trick to save himself, mostly because there was no damage on him when he came back.
At that point I thought it was something like a time reverse thing(linked to his space/time abilities) but when I saw Izanagi, I was sure that it was what he used.


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## mrsaphen (Jul 2, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Any MS user can subjugate Kurama. Sasuke could influence him without even having MS



I know that. But he said it like the Kyuubi is a strong enemy for the Uchihas.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> What are you talking about? Mind control? Where?



Why would Itachi set the Amaterasu to ignite upon seeing Obito's Sharingan?  (Bearing in mind, what happens to others Obito happens to talk to with his exposed Sharingan.)



> It sure looks the same to me. Trap Jutsu.-->Obito removes his mask and goes off-panel.-->It seems like he died.-->Oops, not really.



You're linking two coincidences. The first one was a trap, and Obito suggested he just shrugged it off. The second was another trap, Obito suggested he had to pull out a hidden card. 



> Possible but not necessary; if we do get confirmation later that Obito survived with Izanagi then I would still maintain that Kishi did quite a lot to make it obvious beforehand.



If it is confirmed that Obito survived with Izanagi, then by all means maintain the stance. However right now the case that he used Izanagi is on very thin ice.



> I don't see any emphasis that Obito's abilities were unknown to Itachi; Obito seems to have implied the opposite by saying he managed to keep secrets "even from Itachi."
> 
> The only secret Obito even has besides his identity is Izanagi and having Senju DNA. So I guess Mokuton would be a secret, but that still doesn't explain why Obito took so long to save himself or why his clothes weren't ripped open the way Danzou's were.



He kept a few secrets, as you said, that is clear emphasis in-itself that there was a lot Obito hid from Itachi. Considering that the secretive ROOT had no idea of his capabilities, we've reason to believe that the same applies to everyone who didn't have the luxury to monitor him for years (Konan). 

We've seen Obito's abilities: Izanagi, Kamui, some Katon and Mokuton. Itachi may've had a vague idea of some but not total knowledge. Like Kakashi, he probably thought Kamui's two functions were two jutsu. 

As for his clothes, who knows. Possibly the same reason why Itachi's eye weren't bleeding in part 1 after he used Amaterasu. Or the same reason Itachi's Susanoo had one less finger when he was alive.



> I understand what you mean now, but Izanagi does not restore the body to its condition before Izanagi- it negates things that are harmful to the caster while it keeps the things that are useful. It makes the enemy's attacks only an illusion while keeping the caster's as part of reality. It is _selective reality_, not simply rewinding.



According to Itachi, _it is_ simple rewinding, in a sense.
An Obito example: Obito used it after his arm was blown away -> Izanagi 'deleted' all the negative outcomes for Obito during the explosions -> it 'restored'* Obito to his state before he got bombarded with explosions.

Danzo's case: Danzo used Izanagi before he lost any body parts -> Izanagi 'deleted' all negative outcomes for Danzo -> it 'restored'* him to his optimum condition at the start of the battle.

*Maybe with less chakra.

It negates negative outcomes, "Path 'X' " as Itachi says, from the point the jutsu was cast. That is why Obito didn't have his arm after he used Izanagi, despite the fact it would've been beneficial for him. 



> ...And a new black jumpsuit?
> 
> If it has gotten to the point where the only explanation is "He had a completely seperate plot device in the darkness that saved him and repaired his damage to make it look like Amaterasu did nothing," it's probably just better to accept that Izanagi is the most likely answer.
> 
> Nothing indicates that Zetsu was in that cave, let alone some magical "Zetsu thing." I don't even know what that would be or how it would help him.



Stranger things have happened, like the Kyuubi shroud which burns Naruto doing nothing to his clothing. 

At that time we had no idea what Obito's full set of abilities were. The only problem with accepting Izanagi as an answer is that all the explanations, and demonstrations, of Izanagi make it impossible for it to be the answer. 

That Zetsu thing Obito used to recover lost limbs. Though personally I reckon Obito either did something like this with Mokuton*, or this (absorbing the flames similar to how he absorbed the explosion)... possibly a combination of the two.

*Notice how the part that was ignited was the Mokuton casting side of his body. In the pages he was able to form a body of Mokuton and detach from it. Something like Danzo used.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why would Itachi set the Amaterasu to ignite upon seeing Obito's Sharingan?  (Bearing in mind, what happens to others Obito happens to talk to with his exposed Sharingan.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



None of that explain why he was completely unharmed.

Those who say he "absorbed the flames".. Even if that is possible(which doesn't seem to be imo), that wouldn't heal his wounds or recreate his jump suit. 
We've seen him get completely engulfed. It was a direct hit. He cried in pain for a while.


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## Turrin (Jul 2, 2013)

Did my joke thread scare you that much Niku?

My problem with the Izanagi hypothesis is that from my understanding Izanagi can't undo things that happen before Izanagi is activated and here Amaterasu is cast before Izanagi. 

To me it's equally likely that Obito detached his arm and simply created a new one out of Zetsu goo or simply warped the flames with Kamui.


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## Rawri (Jul 2, 2013)

It wasn't Kamui since his body would simply keep burning on his own dimension, but couldn't he have simply detached his arm? Zetsu body might be one of the secret Obito was hiding from Itachi. Had it hit his head or chest, I'd agree with you. But since it hit his arm it's not really clear.


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## iJutsu (Jul 2, 2013)

How about a third option: He used a MS eye that had amaterasu to cancel it. He did have Itachi's corpse after all.


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## machiavelli2009 (Jul 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It was only highlighted that Obito attempted to do some mind control via the mask coming off back then. With Konan, he deemed Kamui useless and resorted to his last resort: Izanagi. That same atmosphere was not created with the surprise Amaterasu.
> 
> Kishimoto is very explicit when he hints such things. He would've even provided a little flashback to the last time Obito used it. Further the atmosphere created when Obito said he would've been killed if not for his secret, was the same one created when Nagato said it.
> 
> ...



*
"Amaterasu was _on_ him. If he used Izanagi then, it would just restore him to the state he was in when he used Izanagi... when he was on fire. It would've failed."

that part of your post is full of wrong
danzo fight with sasuke proves it very wrong
when amaterasu killed danzo while izanagi was in use, izanagi didnt restore danzo to a state when he was being burnt wont that be a pointless jutsu 

izanagi turns reality to a dream. thats all, so its perfectly reasonable to think izanagi was used to survive amaterasu seeing that no other explanation would explain where the flames went


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## KnightGhost (Jul 2, 2013)

common knowledge at least i thought so.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 2, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Did my joke thread scare you that much Niku?
> 
> My problem with the Izanagi hypothesis is that from my understanding Izanagi can't undo things that happen before Izanagi is activated and here Amaterasu is cast before Izanagi.
> 
> To me it's equally likely that Obito detached his arm and simply created a new one out of Zetsu goo or simply warped the flames with Kamui.



Izanagi undoes things after it is activated.
What if Obito used Izanagi the second blood dripped from Sasuke's eye, or the second amaterasu touched on his shoulder ? 

How can he detach flames off his body ? and even if does, how would it be possible to be completely unharmed after being exposed to direct flames for a good 4 5 seconds.
It would be able to eradicate cerebrus, Sasuke's cs2 wing and toad wall during that time.

Hell, we've seen Danzo get directly hit by Sasuke's amaterasu.
He got burned down quite fast.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 2, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> None of that explain why he was completely unharmed.



If he used Mokuton, the part that was burning got removed, obviously. Kamui, the flames were warped away.



> Those who say he "absorbed the flames".. Even if that is possible(which doesn't seem to be imo), that wouldn't heal his wounds or recreate his jump suit.
> We've seen him get completely engulfed. It was a direct hit. He cried in pain for a while.



We also know it isn't Izanagi, he was on fire before knowing what to do. 

If he absorbed the flames, it could mean that he just absorbed them. It is that simple. Obito heals himself it seems. 

Though you're right, it doesn't explain the clothing. However it is worth noting Karin lost some clothing when she got burnt, yet the samurai armour wasn't gone when they were burning for longer. 

In that case, a better explanation is that he used Mokuton, then considering Yamato and Hashirama still have their clothing in tact when they use it. It isn't hard to believe that it applies to Obito, who now can control his Mokuton powers.




machiavelli2009 said:


> *
> "Amaterasu was _on_ him. If he used Izanagi then, it would just restore him to the state he was in when he used Izanagi... when he was on fire. It would've failed."
> 
> that part of your post is full of wrong
> ...



Danzo used Izanagi at the start of the battle, when he wasn't burnt. So how does Danzo support your point? Care to explain why is it that Obito used Izanagi, with one arm, and got restored in the state he was before he cast Izanagi? As opposed to being being restored with both his arms.


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## HoriMaori (Jul 2, 2013)

So Obito has a hidden SharingArm just like Danzo?


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## KnightGhost (Jul 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If he used Mokuton, the part that was burning got removed, obviously. Kamui, the flames were warped away.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What your saying is basically a theory supported by nothing.

kamui warps

If warping is your arument then that is also illogical how can he just warp flames off his body without taking his body with him in the process? its just not possible he would just end up in another place with his body still on fire

Obito has never been able to absorb any justu before so i don't know where people are getting that from he does not have that ablity

The only reasonable and simple conculsion is Izanagi 

Its the only way Obito could of quickly disappeared and reappeared like nothing happended the way he did.

Its the only thing consistant with what happend.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 2, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> What your saying is basically a theory supported by nothing.
> 
> kamui warps
> 
> ...



How can Obito warp an explosion? 

Izanagi is an illogical conclusion as you need to prove he cast it before he was aware of the  Amaterasu.

Furthermore it would help you to actually read the post, rather than read a part and jump to conclusions: you'll see there are two proposals to how Obito countered it.


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## MminatoO (Jul 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How can Obito warp an explosion?
> 
> Izanagi is an illogical conclusion as you need to prove he cast it before he was aware of the  Amaterasu.
> 
> Furthermore it would help you to actually read the post, rather than read a part and jump to conclusions: you'll see there are two proposals to how Obito countered it.



This. Considering that Amaterasu is instant, unless Tobi can see the future it wasn't Izanagi.


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## HoriMaori (Jul 2, 2013)

It wasn't Izanagi because we never saw a Sharingan close and there is no proof he activated it 'before' he caught on fire.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jul 2, 2013)

MminatoO said:


> This. Considering that Amaterasu is instant, unless Tobi can see the future it wasn't Izanagi.


So is _Kirin_ but the set up can be reacted to and give ample time for a counter.


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## machiavelli2009 (Jul 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If he used Mokuton, the part that was burning got removed, obviously. Kamui, the flames were warped away.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ok i cant explain that. 
however you definitely cant explain where the flames went 
kamui would either cause the flames to land of the floor of the cave or in kamui dimension 
now considering there is a whole lot of shit to burn up in kamui land it makes sense that the flames would still be there. So where did they go?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 2, 2013)

machiavelli2009 said:


> ok i cant explain that.
> however you definitely cant explain where the flames went
> kamui would either cause the flames to land of the floor of the cave or in kamui dimension
> now considering there is a whole lot of shit to burn up in kamui land it makes sense that the flames would still be there. So where did they go?



Amaterasu won't burn everything in "Kamui land". Obito can leave it in some fodder part and let 7 days pass. 

If it landed on the floor (unsure how), then either Obito left it (remember as the OP mentioned, Obito landed in a dark place), or warped it. 

If you take the Mokuton+Kamui approach, then the burning part was detached and absorbed.


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## machiavelli2009 (Jul 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Amaterasu won't burn everything in "Kamui land". Obito can leave it in some fodder part and let 7 days pass.
> 
> If it landed on the floor (unsure how), then either Obito left it (remember as the OP mentioned, Obito landed in a dark place), or warped it.
> 
> If you take the Mokuton+Kamui approach, then the burning part was detached and absorbed.



then you dont understand how amaterasu works 
it burns a specific target for 7 days if the target is that durable however in kamui land it would spread from surface to surface consuming everything 
therefore it wont end as far as there are things to burn 
thats how amatersu works

kamui+mokuton approach would have taken longer 
also if he used mokuton to detach part of himself, more than half if you look at the panel again 
how does he still have his clothes on and everything?

doesnt it make more sense that he prepped izanagi before he walked in the room with sasuke in case itachi had a trick up his sleeve since he knew itachi didnt want sasuke talking to him


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## Trebla Sless enitsraw (Jul 2, 2013)

LOL sorry bro, and everyone discussing this, your about 5 years too late........this was deduced years ago. /thread izanagi


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If he used Mokuton, the part that was burning got removed, obviously. Kamui, the flames were warped away.



What about the damage ?
And why would he wait so long to use Mokuton ? 



> We also know it isn't Izanagi, he was on fire before knowing what to do.


A baseless assumption.

He could have activated Izanagi when he saw the blood drop, or the second Amaterasu appeared on himself.



> If he absorbed the flames, it could mean that he just absorbed them. It is that simple. Obito heals himself it seems.


Superficial wounds maybe. He never healed anything major.




> Though you're right, it doesn't explain the clothing. However it is worth noting Karin lost some clothing when she got burnt, yet the samurai armour wasn't gone when they were burning for longer.


Obito's clothes aren't made of thick iron or steel.




> In that case, a better explanation is that he used Mokuton, then considering Yamato and Hashirama still have their clothing in tact when they use it. It isn't hard to believe that it applies to Obito, who now can control his Mokuton powers.



What does this have anything to do with our subject ? 
I am not claiming that Mokuyon rips clothes apart. 
Amaterasu would have. For Obito to feel pain for a couple of seconds, Amaterasu would have to burn through clothing first.
So this scan doesn't explain clothing.





> Danzo used Izanagi at the start of the battle, when he wasn't burnt. So how does Danzo support your point? Care to explain why is it that Obito used Izanagi, with one arm, and got restored in the state he was before he cast Izanagi? As opposed to being being restored with both his arms.



I presume you are referring to conan incident...
Obito didn't use Izanagi up untill he fell into the paper bomb pit. The damage on his arm was infilicted prior to that.

The only explanation outside Izanagi is that, he dislodged the zetsu parts, then renewed them like he did after his battle against Konan, and then changed his clothes.

However the time frame certainly wouldn't fit that, given there was no flashforward in that instance. Sasuke used Amaterasu, and Obito came back while Sasuke was still trying to realize what just happened. 
Must have been quite quick.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 2, 2013)

machiavelli2009 said:


> then you dont understand how amaterasu works
> it burns a specific target for 7 days if the target is that durable however in kamui land it would spread from surface to surface consuming everything
> therefore it wont end as far as there are things to burn
> thats how amatersu works
> ...



The databook says it burns for 7 days. Amaterasu just burns, it is doubtful it'll burn beyond Obito's control *in his own dimension*.

How would it have taken longer? The Juubi was able to quickly dispatch it while it was pinned down. A feat anyone who can detach parts of themselves can replicate; i.e. Obito with Mokuton

Read the initial post you quoted and you'll see Yamato and Mokuton retaining their clothing when they used Mokuton. Obito mastered Hashirama's power, thus his use of Mokuton.

No, it doesn't make more sense that he prepped Izanagi before he walked in a room with Sasuke in case Itachi had a trick up his sleeve.
He was *surprised* to see the Amaterasu. As such the "he activated Izanagi prior entering the cave" is already null and void. The speed at which Amaterasu was cast doesn't allow Izanagi to be a valid argument. You can use it by all means, but you'd be wrong.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> What about the damage ?
> And why would he wait so long to use Mokuton ?



Its probably hard to stay cool when you're hit with an Enton jutsu.



> A baseless assumption.
> 
> He could have activated Izanagi when he saw the blood drop, or the second Amaterasu appeared on himself.



_That_ is a baseless assumption. He was too busy being surprised to do much of anything. As the panels show.



> Superficial wounds maybe. He never healed anything major.



An Amaterasu that's not got the user's focus (or hasn't been improved to become Kagutsuchi) hardly does damage. For instance Ei was able to power through with Amaterasu hanging around and Karin didn't get a burn mark on her.



> What does this have anything to do with our subject ?
> I am not claiming that Mokuyon rips clothes apart.
> Amaterasu would have. For Obito to feel pain for a couple of seconds, Amaterasu would have to burn through clothing first.
> So this scan doesn't explain clothing.



If Obito used Mokuton, then you've got your answer about the clothing. Though the pain thing is still a mistery.




> I presume you are referring to conan incident...
> Obito didn't use Izanagi up untill he fell into the paper bomb pit. The damage on his arm was infilicted prior to that.
> 
> The only explanation outside Izanagi is that, he dislodged the zetsu parts, then renewed them like he did after his battle against Konan, and then changed his clothes.
> ...



Exactly, as you suggested damage inflicted prior being hit with Izanagi isn't healed. Also the time frame (particularly Obito being too surprised to cast Izanagi in time) doesn't support Izanagi either. 

Mokuton, and or Kamui, makes the most sense out of all the options here.


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## shintebukuro (Jul 2, 2013)

Obito alluding to a secret of his having saved his life was obviously not referring to Kamui. 

It was the author hyping him...telling us Obito has another trick up his sleeve. Now, is that trick his ability to warp things, which was never presented in a manner that would suggest he even hides it, or is it his Senju DNA/Izanagi, which was his trump card at the time?

I also find it hard to believe that Itachi did not know Obito could warp things. They worked as partners in the Uchiha massacre. 

The answer is really obvious here. I'm amazed we even have to have this discussion. Let it go people.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Its probably hard to stay cool when you're hit with an Enton jutsu.


And this explains what ?





> _That_ is a baseless assumption. He was too busy being surprised to do much of anything. As the panels show.


Being surprised =/= being busy.

I am pretty sure he was pretty surprised when the ocean split open and he fell inside.

My suggestions are completely fine. If he activated Izanagi when he saw the blood drop or Amaterasu's first materialization, it would save him without a scratch.





> An Amaterasu that's not got the user's focus (or hasn't been improved to become Kagutsuchi) hardly does damage. For instance Ei was able to power through with Amaterasu hanging around and Karin didn't get a burn mark on her.


Except that this was directly used on Obito. 
He didn't hit the leftovers by accident.
So this argument hardly makes any sense.

And Karin's instance works against your argument. Despite not being focused and being exposed for a very short amount oftime, Karin's cloak was burned down.

Contradicts the condition of Obito's clothes.






> If Obito used Mokuton, then you've got your answer about the clothing. Though the pain thing is still a mistery.


How ? 

Are you suggesting that mokuton would replace the missing clothe parts ?






> Exactly, as you suggested damage inflicted prior being hit with Izanagi isn't healed. Also the time frame (particularly Obito being too surprised to cast Izanagi in time) doesn't support Izanagi either.


For the 3rd time, If Tobi activated Izanagi when he saw the blood drop or the exact moment Amaterasu appeared on him(before Amaterasu could do any damage), then he would be completely fine.



> Mokuton, and or Kamui, makes the most sense out of all the options here.


They make the least sense mostly because the method you are referring is doubtful and overly complex, and Kamui is not one of Tobi's secrets.


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## Antos (Jul 2, 2013)

I think he somehow survived because it was meant to kill Madara It seems like he just turned it off.  So It could mean that Uchiha Dōjutsu might be connected but than that leaves why wasn't it useable on Kakashi. or he produced something that was just allowed to burn away.


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## T-Bag (Jul 2, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He gauged Obito's power from his eyes. From that he deduced "Madara". So the inferiority point stands.
> 
> Your second point lacks relevance and meaning.
> 
> ...



the inferiority point doesn't stand at all. itachi said "today madara is pathetic, and doesn't deserve the title of the greatest uchiha" anyway that's why tobi used the madara alias, so people can fear him, overestimate him. 

izanagi was clearly used. that much is evident. kamui is quick, and would have absorbed the flames almost instantly. whereas izanagi, he would have to wait until his entire body is burned from the flames and reform...and that's exactly what happened considering the time and no-injuries. not too mention he wouldn't have called it a "secret"

it's a movie but it strongly supports the reason why tobi didn't cross itachi in the manga


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## CyberianGinseng (Jul 2, 2013)

Yeah. Amaterasu wouldn't destroy the Kamui dimension any more than it destroyed the Earth (or whatever planet they're on) when Yamato used a simple earth jutsu to bury it or whatever he did here:If it were in danger of spreading indefinitely, Itachi would've extinguished it rather than let it burn because it would've consumed Sasuke before he even woke up and eventually it would endanger Konoha.

If it's Kamui how would he remain completely unbarbecued when Kamui has already engulfed his upper body, *including his face*?He would've been uglier than he already is when he pulled off his mask.

Karin's clothing was burnt and she was singed:Kirabi's clone was burnt with half of its clothes destroyed:Yet Obito didn't have any marks or burns on himself or his clothes:When Obito absorbed Konan's explosion it left damage behind:Obito also remained alarmed when he used Izanagi against Konan. Not sure how that would stop him from using a jutsu.

There's nothing it could be, but Izanagi cast while the eye is bleeding, but before his shoulder is set ablaze..


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## Turrin (Jul 3, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Izanagi undoes things after it is activated.
> What if Obito used Izanagi the second blood dripped from Sasuke's eye, or the second amaterasu touched on his shoulder ?
> 
> How can he detach flames off his body ? and even if does, how would it be possible to be completely unharmed after being exposed to direct flames for a good 4 5 seconds.
> ...



Maybe but the point Niku makes is that Obito needs the mask off for Izanagi and I also tend to believe that since he reaches to pull his mask off when he uses Izanagi against Konan. 

He just removes the part of his body that the flames are on (he's shown the ability to do so against Fu and Torune), that entire half of his body was made of Zetsu goop.

He would be unharmed because he would be replacing that entire part of his body, it's like when he replaces his entire arm with Zetsu goop.

Toad wall was caused by it hitting glass window and the wing wasn't actually CS2 it was just the skin left behind for Oral Rebirth.

We've seen Karin tank Amaterasu for an extended period of time w/o being harmed and yeah she probably has some regen as an Uzamaki, but we've seen Obito's Zetsu goop side regen him as well. 

So I still think Kamui warp and detaching that part of the body are probably the more rational explanations than Izanagi in that instance. Though I think the most rational explanation is that Kishi didn't even think it through, he just knew Obito wouldn't be killed off by that level of attack and wanted an epic scene.


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## Okodi (Jul 3, 2013)

Obito probably did something similar to the Juubi since he is part Zetsu which was created through the use of the Gedo Mazo, the Juubi's body/empty shell, meaning Obito's goo-like nature probably comes from it and he possesses Mokuton and can do things like Yamato has shown.
[sp][/sp]
[sp][/sp]

If there was something that Itachi might not have known it would that Tobito had Senju cells, possessed the Mokuto and was part Zetsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 3, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Maybe but the point Niku makes is that Obito needs the mask off for Izanagi and I also tend to believe that since he reaches to pull his mask off when he uses Izanagi against Konan.
> 
> He just removes the part of his body that the flames are on (he's shown the ability to do so against Fu and Torune), that entire half of his body was made of Zetsu goop.
> 
> ...


It could be that the mask should be off in order to cast the technique, but then he was already lowering the mask when Sasuke's eye bled out so it was technically off.

Plus it was the first time Izanagi was executed, Kishimoto may not have thought through all the details of the jutsu.
Its weaknesses and exact details might have been added later on.




> Though I think the most rational explanation is that Kishi didn't even think it through, he just knew Obito wouldn't be killed off by that level of attack and wanted an epic scene.


Yeah this is basically what I think as well.

Kishimoto probably thought about granting some secret Dojutsu to Obito, which would allow him to negate lethal situations, and it was a good opportunity to show that off. Add more mystery to Obito as a chracter.

It wasn't an exact combat sequence, so its natural that some details were omitted.


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