# Tobirama vs Raikage Ay



## Kickflip Uzumaki (Feb 2, 2014)

I see some vastly differing opinions on who is stronger between these two. Who do you think would win between them in a straight up fight?

*Location* - Where Ay fought Sasuke
*Mindset* - IC
*Knowledge* - None
*Restrictions* - No Edo Tensei for Tobirama if it wasn't obvious enough


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 2, 2014)

Depending on distance, Tobirama could arguably be blitzed by Ei (0-15m range).

Apparently Tobirama was defeated by trailing, unranked ninja in the manga. Kinkaku and Ginkaku also nearly trashed him. 

Overall, this is a terrible match up for him. 

Minato would have trouble against Ei, and he would definitely lose against Ei's father.

Why? Because he has a limited offensive arsenal, and the Raikages are extremely durable entities. 

Tobirama has an even shittier offensive arsenal, and he's slower than Minato.


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## fior fior (Feb 2, 2014)

> a straight up fight





> Restrictions - No Edo Tensei



Something doesn't quite match up..
Edo Tensei is one of Tobirama's stronger jutsu.


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## Bonly (Feb 2, 2014)

I personally find Tobi to be the stronger of the two overall but in this fight Tobi I'd favor Tobi more times then not. Suiton: Suidanha and his sword should have a shot at hurting A(the sword is debatable though). With no knowledge Tobi has a good shot at winning since he can use clones and Goshun Mawashi to try and set up different angles to attack along with his speed,reflexes, and sensing to help him deal with A. A's only shot at winning is if he goes for a Max speed blitz and hopes Tobi isn't fast enough to react and use Hiraishin.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 2, 2014)

Bonly said:


> I personally find Tobi to be the stronger of the two overall but in this fight Tobi I'd favor Tobi more times then not. Suiton: Suidanha and his sword should have a shot at hurting A(the sword is debatable though). With no knowledge Tobi has a good shot at winning since he can use clones and Goshun Mawashi to try and set up different angles to attack along with his speed,reflexes, and sensing to help him deal with A. A's only shot at winning is if he goes for a Max speed blitz and hopes Tobi isn't fast enough to react and use Hiraishin.



What sword?

Why would a suiton affect a man who tanks light travel in base, who's then covered in a lightning bolt which helped him tank Amaterasu and a direct lariat?


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## Kickflip Uzumaki (Feb 2, 2014)

fior fior said:


> Something doesn't quite match up..
> Edo Tensei is one of Tobirama's stronger jutsu.



Tobirama is the one who restricted Edo Tensei IIRC. Not to mention he won't have dead bodies on tap wherever he goes. He couldn't do Edo Tensei here even if it wasn't restricted.


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## Complete_Ownage (Feb 2, 2014)

I think the manga has made it clear enough that 4 hokages are on a completely different level then the rest of the kages. Yes even sarutobi once he gets more feats.


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## Veracity (Feb 2, 2014)

If Tobirama FTG tags a Kage Bunshin, then he cannot be hit in this match.  Because Edo is restricted the only way he can hurt Ay is through his Suiton beam which was chopping up the god tree like butter.

Considering Chidori could penetrate like 4 inches into his body, I have absolutely no problem with Tobirama FTG slashing apart of Ay's chest, then Suiton beaming that same part and shredding him apart.

Also is to note that Kishi made it very clear that Minato was going to end Ay wih a simple Kunai.


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## The World (Feb 2, 2014)

Tobirama mid diff

Bunshins and Hiraishins destroy Ai


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## Senjuclan (Feb 2, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Depending on distance, Tobirama could arguably be blitzed by Ei (0-15m range).
> 
> Apparently Tobirama was defeated by trailing, unranked ninja in the manga. Kinkaku and Ginkaku also nearly trashed him.
> 
> ...



1. Tobirama has S/T, which is faster than regular speed. the only question is whether or not he has the reflexes to activate it in time and the answer is yes. He has reflexes to react to Jyuubito, who is faster than both Minato and Ei.
2. Tobirama was almost killed by 20 people, including Kinkaku and Ginkaku. Ei was almost killed by a kid with half a susano'o while Tobirama killed a full fleshed Susano'o wielder. What does that say?
3. Tobirama has better offense than Minato. He has exploding tags and suiton with feather feats than rasengan


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## Trojan (Feb 2, 2014)

The distance? 

if it's close enough, then A can cut Tobirama's head. 
I'll show a picture to you.
The different that Tobirama won't be able to dodge that since he's slower. 

Tobirama's offensive jutsus won't do anything to A either. Even though his water jutsu cut throw some of Tree's  branches, but that is not a good proof because we saw those Branches being cut by even a sword! 

Since Tobirama can't use his ET here, he can't use his explosion tags either. Thus, losing his strongest offensive jutsu! 

As for chakra, I believe A has more chakra than him! 

So, A wins more time than not. U_U


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## egressmadara (Feb 2, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Tobirama has S/T, which is faster than regular speed. the only question is whether or not he has the reflexes to activate it in time and the answer is yes. He has reflexes to react to Jyuubito, who is faster than both Minato and Ei.
> 2. Tobirama was almost killed by 20 people, including Kinkaku and Ginkaku. Ei was almost killed by a kid with half a susano'o while Tobirama killed a full fleshed Susano'o wielder. What does that say?
> 3. Tobirama has better offense than Minato. He has exploding tags and suiton with feather feats than rasengan


1. Agree with the first
2. Except Tobirama WAS killed, and I don't see how A was nearly killed by Sasuke (on the contrary, I believe that A would end up killing Sasuke and still end up living, just that he'd probably have trouble moving a leg).
3. Exploding tags either can be no-sold by A or end up taking Tobirama's life.
I don't know how a mere Shinju branch compares with A's Lightning Cloak in durability, but I doubt that Tobirama would be able to hit him with it if he's moving.

Overall, Tobirama can outplay A in a game of tag, but without anything substantial to actually cripple him with, I see Raikage eventually being able to one-shot Tobirama.


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## Senjuclan (Feb 2, 2014)

egressmadara said:


> 1. Agree with the first
> 2. Except Tobirama WAS killed, and I don't see how A was nearly killed by Sasuke (on the contrary, I believe that A would end up killing Sasuke and still end up living, just that he'd probably have trouble moving a leg).
> 3. Exploding tags either can be no-sold by A or end up taking Tobirama's life.
> I don't know how a mere Shinju branch compares with A's Lightning Cloak in durability, but I doubt that Tobirama would be able to hit him with it if he's moving.
> ...



1. Tobirama was not killed. He was nearly killed by 20 people. Ei was saved by Gaara. He would have lost arm and a leg (no pun intended)
2. Exploding tags won't kill him since he can use hiraishin to avoid the explosion
3. If Ei is tagged, it does not matter that he is moving

Ei can be crippled with multiple explosions. And how is he going to one-shot Tobirama when he can't land a hit and Tobirama can feint him with kb?


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## richard lewis (Feb 2, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Depending on distance, Tobirama could arguably be blitzed by Ei (0-15m range).
> 
> Apparently Tobirama was defeated by trailing, unranked ninja in the manga. Kinkaku and Ginkaku also nearly trashed him.
> 
> ...



couple problems with your post. First off we know virtually nothing about the hunting squad that killed tobirama, so IDK how you could possibly know that they where all unranked ninja? please post a scan of where this was stated. B/C last time I checked the manga never specified how many of them there where or how string they where, for all we know they could have had multiple kage lvl ninja among them. Secondly we don't know the specifics of minato fight with kinkaku and ginkaku except for the fact that he was ambushed and didn't see it coming. That means that kin and gin most likely had several days of prep to plan for their attack and tobirama had none for all we know they could have prepped a billion explosive tags like konan and wounded tobirama in the blast making him severely weakened. Finally minato beat Ei in like 2 pages if I recall correctly, he would have been a dead man if bee hadn't saved him so IDK how that equates to minato having "trouble".

Anyway tobirama takes this, once he lays a few seals Ei will never be able to touch him, hirahsingiri most likely ends this.


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## Dominus (Feb 2, 2014)

It depends on whether Tobirama's attacks can kill the Raikage.


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## Trojan (Feb 2, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> Anyway tobirama takes this, once he lays a few seals Ei will never be able to touch him, hirahsingiri most likely ends this.



Sasuke's sword with chidori did not effect A, why would Tobirama's sword? @.@


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## Fiiction (Feb 2, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Depending on distance, Tobirama could arguably be blitzed by Ei (0-15m range).
> 
> Apparently Tobirama was defeated by trailing, unranked ninja in the manga. Kinkaku and Ginkaku also nearly trashed him.
> 
> ...



Didn't look like minato had trouble against ay or b  in the flashbacks. and I think minato can defeat the 3rd raikage mid-difficulty because he has the 3red's only weakness in his arsenal;fuuton


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## Dominus (Feb 2, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Didn't look like minato had trouble against ay or b  in the flashbacks. and I think minato can defeat the 3rd raikage mid-difficulty because he has the 3red's only weakness in his arsenal;fuuton



How do you know what element Minato had? And don't say because of the Rasengan, that's not a wind element jutsu.


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## Fiiction (Feb 2, 2014)

QUOTE=Authoritah;49705559]How do you know what element Minato had? And don't say because of the Rasengan, that's not a wind element jutsu.[/QUOTE]

And even if he doesn't have wind release, he can still beat 3rd raikage with ease. Especially with a clone that's tagged.

According to Karuma, 8 Tails is the 2nd most powerful Bijuu (on a power scale)

2. Killer Bee is a PERFECT Jinchurriki--that was an actual tentacle of the 8 Tails (not a chakra cloak)

3. His son (Naruto) was born with Wind Release, and Nature Types have been known to be passed down genetically. 

4. Minato has never been seen using a Nature Type, but all shinobi are born with an affinity for one. Additionally, it was said that Minato created the Rasengan to eventually combine with his Nature Type, but never completed the Jutsu.

5. The only other time in history it was been stated in the manga that tentacles were cut off... it was using a Nature Transformation. 3rd Raikaige and Sasuke both used a form of Lightning Release to accomplish this feat. Kakashi used it too, just on other Bijuu (not the 8 Tails). 

AND THESE WERE CONSIDERED IMPRESSIVE FEATS, even using a Nature Transformation.


6. Last but not least. Before Minato cut the 8 Tails Tentacle, he was on top of "A" about to stab him. 
"A" was wrapped in lighning release, at FULL POWER (he stated he was at Full Speed when Minato Dodged him).


And even if he doesn't have wind release, he can still beat 3rd raikage with ease. Especially with a clone that's tagged.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Feb 2, 2014)

It really depends on if Tobirama has anything that can actually hurt Ē. With Edo Tensei and thus Gojō Kibaku Fuda restricted, this could end up being a pretty hard fight for the Nidaime Hokage.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 2, 2014)

Tobirama seems like he should be fast enough to set up Hiraishin tags before A can just blitz him.

We've also seen that he can do it with kunai, sort of like Minato (but not as many). That's an important difference, as it used to be a huge weakness in his version.

I don't think he could one-shot A or anything like that, but repeated hits--especially with the multiplying explosive tag Jutsu--ought to wear the Raikage down eventually.

It'll be a difficult fight, of that much I'm certain.


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## richard lewis (Feb 2, 2014)

Elia said:


> Sasuke's sword with chidori did not effect A, why would Tobirama's sword? @.@



and yet minato likely would have killed/severely wounded him with a kunai if bee hadn't stepped in.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 2, 2014)

To be completely fair, A was much younger back then, not yet a Kage, and not nearly as muscular.

It's possible his defense was not as good at the time.

That, and there's also the possibility that Raiton armor has variable durability. A was concentrating all of his chakra into Shunshin and trying to punch Minato, so maybe he didn't have a lot protecting his back. Hard to say, but a normal kunai should definitely not be a threat to the current 4th Raikage.


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## ARGUS (Feb 2, 2014)

Tobirama should win this more times than not 

He can mark kunai just like Minato and with FTG he will make it extremely difficult for A to effectively attack him 
The starting distance matters alot in this fight,, as an extremely short starting distance is A's only shot in winning if he can manage to blitz tobirama before he uses FTG,, 
Once he manages to use FTG,,, he would be avoiding everything that A throws at him
Although u could say that CQC is quite dangerous for Tobirama.,, it would also be fatal for A since he would get marked,, thereby allowing Tobirama to attack A in multiple ways 
FTG slash  to the neck jus about kills anyone,,, Unlike the Third Raikage,, A has a weaker defense on his armor since he focuses more on his speed,, 
I believe FTG slash gives tobirama the win if he manages to not get blitzed at the start  
Tobirama wins this high diff


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## richard lewis (Feb 2, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> To be completely fair, A was much younger back then, not yet a Kage, and not nearly as muscular.
> 
> It's possible his defense was not as good at the time.
> 
> That, and there's also the possibility that *Raiton armor has variable durability*. A was concentrating all of his chakra into Shunshin and trying to punch Minato, so maybe he didn't have a lot protecting his back. Hard to say, but a normal kunai should definitely not be a threat to the current 4th Raikage.



That may be true but if that's the case then it mean in order to hit tobirama Ei will need to use max speed thus weakening his defense leaving him open to a counter attack. and if he keeps up his defense then he will be to slow to land a hit. Also muscles won't make you more durable, a kunai to the gut would harm a body builder just as much as it would harm anyone else.

Regardless tobirama is much more versatile and simply has way more options. He can use smoke clouds to break up LoS and take Ei out in the smoke. He can trick him with a KB fient and then take him out. It's also possible that his suiton could slice him in half even with his raiton shroud. I don't see any way for Ei to win this.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 2, 2014)

Tobirama wins. Hiraishin no Jutsu is a perfect counter for A's speed, and Tobirama can directly weaponize it via Hirashingiri. If Minato's tri-kunai can be a serious threat to A, Tobirama's katana will be a threat as well. On top of his Suitons which can provide a flexible defense and offense, he is just on a higher level than A.


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## Kickflip Uzumaki (Feb 3, 2014)

I concur with the majority, Tobirama is superior


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## Deleted member 211714 (Feb 3, 2014)

Tobirama wins.

I've come to accept that he is superior to Minato, and the latter had an advantage over Ei previously.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 3, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> That may be true but if that's the case then it mean in order to hit tobirama Ei will need to use max speed thus weakening his defense leaving him open to a counter attack. and if he keeps up his defense then he will be to slow to land a hit. Also muscles won't make you more durable, a kunai to the gut would harm a body builder just as much as it would harm anyone else.



Actually, more muscle mass and greater muscle density WOULD make him more durable and increase his damage soak; it's a lot easier to stab through a skinny beanpole or a squishy dough boy than someone built like a brick shithouse.



> Regardless tobirama is much more versatile and simply has way more options. He can use smoke clouds to break up LoS and take Ei out in the smoke. He can trick him with a KB fient and then take him out. It's also possible that his suiton could slice him in half even with his raiton shroud. I don't see any way for Ei to win this.



True enough.

I don't think most people are contesting that Tobirama wins this.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 3, 2014)

Well, since my last post I noticed there's no knowledge so this actually benefits Tobirama, as placing a seal on Base Ei and finishing him with a slash is likely to occur.

However, the fanboyism being expressed throughout this thread as to a FTG Slash damaging V2 Ei at all is fucking comical. Explosion tags, sword slashes and suiton beams won't affect him at all. Amaterasu did not, lariat did not, light travel did not, and the most powerful Chidori I've ever seen barely wounded him. 

Tobirama still cannot defeat V2 Ei with knowledge.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 3, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Well, since my last post I noticed there's no knowledge so this actually benefits Tobirama, as placing a seal on Base Ei and finishing him with a slash is likely to occur.
> 
> However, the fanboyism being expressed throughout this thread as to a FTG Slash damaging V2 Ei at all is fucking comical. Explosion tags and sword slashes won't affect him at all. Amaterasu did not, lariat did not, light travel did not, and Suigetsu's beheading meat cleaver did not.
> 
> Tobirama stands absolutely no chance against V2 Ei.



1. A doesn't have V2 form because he is not a Jinchuuriki.

2. Amaterasu did affect the Raikage; he cut off his own arm to get away from it.


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## asstonine (Feb 3, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> I think the manga has made it clear enough that 4 hokages are on a completely different level then the rest of the kages. Yes even sarutobi once he gets more feats.



This.  Thank you!


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 3, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> 1. A doesn't have V2 form because he is not a Jinchuuriki.
> 
> 2. Amaterasu did affect the Raikage; he cut off his own arm to get away from it.


1. Ei has a V2 because he jumps in speed while cloaked from Suigetsu reacting, to blitzing the Mangekyou Sharingan.

2. Amaterasu did not affect the Raikage. He severed his arm, then deactivated his cloak, which was effectively protecting him from the flames completely. 

3. You have no counter to tanking lariat in V2, or light travel in base.

4. The term "V2" is not specifically constructed for Jinchurikis in this manga. V2 means version 2, like version 2 Susano. Though, we've gone over this argument before, you're just trolling as usual.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 3, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> 1. Ei has a V2 because he jumps in speed while cloaked from Suigetsu reacting, to blitzing the Mangekyou Sharingan.
> 
> 2. Amaterasu did not affect the Raikage. He severed his arm, then deactivated his cloak, which was effectively protecting him from the flames completely.
> 
> 3. You have no counter to tanking lariat in V2, or light travel in base.



1. That's called "Raiton: Shunshin no Jutsu."

2. Someone please gently explain to DaVizWiz why the Raikage severed his arm in the first place.

3. Well, I'm not very fast or durable compared to these superhuman ninja. I don't see how that's important to this discussion, though.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 3, 2014)

> 1. That's called "Raiton: Shunshin no Jutsu."


It's not called anything. He coats his body in lightning chakra then shunshins. 

Have you heard him say "Raiton: Shunshin no Jutsu" in combat? 



> 2. Someone please gently explain to DaVizWiz why the Raikage severed his arm in the first place.


You offer no counter to the fact that his arm remained completely undamaged until he severed it. 



> 3. Well, I'm not very fast or durable compared to these superhuman ninja. I don't see how that's important to this discussion, though.


You still have no counter to the Raikage tanking lariat in V2, or light travel in base when it pertains to him somehow taking damage from a simple sword slash or explosion.


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## asstonine (Feb 3, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> 1. That's called "Raiton: Shunshin no Jutsu."
> 
> 2. Someone please gently explain to DaVizWiz why the Raikage severed his arm in the first place.
> 
> 3. Well, I'm not very fast or durable compared to these superhuman ninja. I don't see how that's important to this discussion, though.



1) No rebuttal... 
2) No rebuttal...  Ohh, he is right btw!
3) No rebuttal....

The only thing I have to say is that just because a lightning based attacked failed doesn't make the cloak impenetrable.



Elia said:


> Sasuke's sword with chidori did not effect A, why would Tobirama's sword? @.@



It's not lightning based.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 3, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> It's not called anything. He coats his body in lightning chakra then shunshins.
> 
> Have you heard him say "Raiton: Shunshin no Jutsu" in combat?



he did it fast enough to blitz Sage Kabuto



> You offer no counter to the fact that his arm remained completely undamaged until he severed it.



The fact that he willfully severed it indicates that it was a threat. That, or the 4th Raikage is a massive idiot.



> You still have no counter to the Raikage tanking lariat in V2, or light travel in base when it pertains to him somehow tanking damage from a simple sword slash or explosion.



Well, the Raikage doesn't have a V2 cloak, since he's not a Jinchuuriki, as I already pointed out.

As for the discrepancy, I think most people are still trying to reconcile that with Minato nearly killing him with a kunai (apparently).

There isn't really a good/definitive answer atm.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 3, 2014)

> he did it fast enough to blitz Sage Kabuto


This is Madara saying it... 



> The fact that he willfully severed it indicates that it was a threat. That, or the 4th Raikage is a massive idiot.


Of course it was a threat, it would have burned for 7 days. He cannot keep his cloak on for 7 days.

While it was on he suffered absolutely no damage or ill effects from the flames and they failed to expand. 



> Well, the Raikage doesn't have a V2 cloak, since he's not a Jinchuuriki, as I already pointed out.


He has a cloak which displays two different levels of speed canonically.

V1-V2. 

Like how Susano displays four different levels of size and appearance. 



> As for the discrepancy, I think most people are still trying to reconcile that with Minato nearly killing him with a kunai (apparently).


Nothing suggests this was possible. Obito survived a direct Rasengan, Minato is killing Ei with a kunai now? 



> There isn't really a good/definitive answer atm.


The answer is actually blatantly obvious.

Ei is a clear terrible matchup for Tobirama.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 3, 2014)

asstonine said:


> The only thing I have to say is that just because a lightning based attacked failed doesn't make the cloak impenetrable.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not lightning based.



Raiton enhances cutting power.

If a Raiton-coated sword fails to penetrate the Raikage's Raiton armor, the logical inference is that a normal sword would fail as well.



DaVizWiz said:


> This is Madara saying it...



What's your point? He said the name of Mei's Jutsu, too, and that's what she calls it. He obviously knows what he's talking about and not just arbitrarily naming their moves for them.



> Of course it was a threat, it would have burned for 7 days. He cannot keep his cloak on for 7 days.





If all he needed to do was keep his Raiton armor activated, he could've at least let it go for a while longer and see if he could find a way to get the flames off without mutilating himself horribly.



> While it was on he suffered absolutely no damage or ill effects from the flames and they failed to expand.



Well not visibly, in the 10 seconds or so from the time he bitchsmacked Sasuke across the face to the time he lopped his hand off.



> He has a cloak which displays two different levels of speed canonically.
> 
> V1-V2.
> 
> Like how Susano displays four different levels of size and appearance.



The Raikage has spiky hair when he charges up to max power. That's about it.



> Nothing suggests this was possible. Obito survived a direct Rasengan, Minato is killing Ei with a kunai now?
> 
> The answer is actually blatantly obvious.



Then why did B bother interrupting Minato's attack? Why did A apologize to B?


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## asstonine (Feb 3, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Raiton enhances cutting power.
> 
> If a Raiton-coated sword fails to penetrate the Raikage's Raiton armor, the logical inference is that a normal sword would fail as well.



That's not a logical inference at all, because in this series lightning can block lightning.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 3, 2014)

asstonine said:


> That's not a logical inference at all, because in this series lightning can block lightning.



It can also block everything else that isn't able to penetrate it, like standard ninja weapons and even Mifune's and the other samurais' generic chakra blades, for example.

It sounds to me like you took a class in SuperSaiyaMan12 Physics if you believe the whole "Raiton neutralizes Raiton" myth...


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## Icegaze (Feb 4, 2014)

if sword or kunai dont work 
generic explosive tags can still kill Ay
a bunch of them destroyed nagato's leg and just as many broke hidan to pieces
no reason to believe 5-10 explosive tags cant harm or kill Ay
with FTG tobirama will have no trouble dropping explosive tags on Ay 
once the raiton shroud is disrupted , seeing as a simple lariat removes the shroud, tobirama proceeds to hirashigiri and Ei looses his head


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