# Odama Rasengan vs. Yata's Mirror



## Ersa (Oct 19, 2014)

I have very reliable sources from the NBD who tell me that Yata's Mirror can be busted by Odama Rasengan so I wanted to hear the general consensus.

How does the mirror fare against?

- Odama Rasengan
- Chou Odama Rasengan

Remember to not use the DB crap or abuse the NLF. We discuss feats only here.


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## Kyu (Oct 19, 2014)

What's the strongest move _Yata Mirror_ deflected? I'mma take a stab in the dark and say _Odama Rasengan_ bounces right off.


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## Itachі (Oct 19, 2014)

DB says that Chou Odama Rasengan can cut away an entire mountain. 

[sp][/sp]

Anyway, Yata Mirror deflects with complete ease going off what we know about the item itself, it lacks feats.


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## Hachibi (Oct 19, 2014)

Yata Mirror blocked Explosive Tag. Same Explosive Tag that that forced Juubito to use Gudodama to protect form.

Therefore, Itachi solo


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## Ersa (Oct 19, 2014)

Yata's Mirror was on-panel busted by Kirin so Kirin cannot in fact be used as a valid tanking feat for the Mirror. The strongest attack it actually tanked was explosive tags so Odama Rasengan stands a fair chance of smashing the mirror.


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## Hachibi (Oct 19, 2014)

We don't know exactly which Susano Version got busted by Kirin.


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## Itachі (Oct 19, 2014)

How do we know that Itachi used Yata Mirror against Kirin though?

I don't recall it ever showing his Susan'oo at the time he was hit.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 19, 2014)

This is retarded. The Yata Mirror has few feats to go by, but it's wielded by Susano'o--a Jutsu that absorbed enough of the damage from Kirin to preserve Itachi's life while the mountain fortress beneath his feat was obliterated all the way to its foundation. Oodama Rasengan does nothing if a monster bigger than Manda failed to dent the shield by ramming into it; the larger Senjutsu variant of the same Jutsu lacks destructive feats entirely, and we've only an exaggerated description of its capabilities from a source with a proclivity to making hyperbolic claims. Even taking the databook entry at its word, the size of the mountain in question and the extent to which it purports the Chou Oodama Rasengan is capable of "carving it away" are unspecified.

I don't see any evidence to suggest that the COR would do more than rattle the mirror and bounce off it harmlessly. But it's not exactly verifiable.


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## JuicyG (Oct 19, 2014)

Itachі said:


> DB says that Chou Odama Rasengan can cut away an entire mountain.




Kishi says so > Everyone else's opinion 




Ersatz said:


> I have very reliable sources from the NBD who tell me that Yata's Mirror can be busted by Odama Rasengan so I wanted to hear the general consensus.
> 
> How does the mirror fare against?
> 
> ...




Not sure what YM's best feats are really...

But I'd say all other forms higher than ORasengan would destroy it


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## Nikushimi (Oct 19, 2014)

Blocking the Yamata no Jutsu is the Yata Mirror's best _verifiable_ feat (some people conjecture that it blocked Kirin, but we never actually see that). Sasuke also fucking stabbed it with his Kusanagi and the sword went flying out of his hands, so imagine that level of hardness, but spread over an area roughly the size of a garage door.


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## Cognitios (Oct 19, 2014)

> Kishi says so > Everyone else's opinion



So Glad you agree


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## Nikushimi (Oct 19, 2014)

Yeah, Kishimoto's hyperbole isn't just a one-way street.

The Yata Mirror has plenty of that going for it. If blind hype is what we're going by, then COR won't even leave a mark.


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## Trojan (Oct 19, 2014)

Anything from Kiri's level or above would destroy the itachi's Susanoo and his Yata. So, since Odoma Rassengan is weaker, it shouldn't be able to destroy the Susanoo and its mirror. I think that would require FRS and up to destroy it.


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## JuicyG (Oct 19, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> So Glad you agree




_Taking peoples word out of context_, sounds like you've become a pro of that...

Data book is specifically made by kishi to help clarify the underlying facts of the series...Its absurd to disagree with the author after all..


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## Cognitios (Oct 19, 2014)

> Taking peoples word out of context, sounds like you've become a pro of that...
> 
> Data book is specifically made by kishi to help clarify the underlying facts of the series...Its absurd to disagree with the author after all..







I can go all day.


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## JuicyG (Oct 19, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> I can go all day.




It'd be great if you could provide sources of these images your posting...


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## Ersa (Oct 19, 2014)

The source is the author, Kishimoto himself.


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## JuicyG (Oct 19, 2014)

We just have to go on jutsu's that strike at the same frequency levels as Kirin. I doubt ORasengan does...


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## Turrin (Oct 19, 2014)

I actually think the mirror does have feats that would suggest it can block Oddoma Rasengan, as I think Yamata no Orochi's strikes are probably more powerful than Oddoma Rasengan.

As for Chou Oddoma Rasengan, that's harder to say. It might actually have a fair shot of doing something as Yata's hype comes from it's ability to Nature change to the opposing affinity, but Chou Oddoma Rasengan does not have an affinity so it bypasses this resistance. So I could see it doing something, but I could just as easily see it doing nothing. Ether way it isn't as strong as Kirin so we can expect that Susano'o construct and Mirror to repel enough off it that Itachi isn't damage what so ever. 

I think a more interesting question would be how would it do against multiple Chou Oddoma Rasengan or Chou Oddoma Rasengan Barrage


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## ueharakk (Oct 19, 2014)

My take on yaata is that it was given limitless hype at the time when things like KN4 bijuudama, C0, 50% FRS, C3, and Kirin were the highest level of attacks, therefore itʻs at least at the level where it blocks the weakest of those attacks without problems.

oodama rasengan is several tiers below those attacks.  SM COR might be close, but it still gets blocked.


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## Cognitios (Oct 20, 2014)

> It'd be great if you could provide sources of these images your posting...


Do you want me to mail you the book?





> There's a reason why Susanoo can boast perfect flawlessness in its offense and defense: the spiritual weapons it holds in both hands. The Sword of Totsuka* in its right hand, which will mow down any kind of enemy, and the Mirror of Yata*, *upon which all attacks will bounce back. Substantial or spiritual, and then ninjutsu or physical attacks lose all kinds of significance before the god's efficacy.*





But in case I photoshopped it you can check on your personal copy


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## Cognitios (Oct 20, 2014)

And if you needed the book it's the third databook of naruto.
Sha no Sho 
Written by Masashi Kishimoto
Published on Sept 9th 2008
It's on pages 274-275

If you want it in MLA Format I can do that too

And no i'm no spoilering that image, you all need Itachi's greatness


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2014)

Do I really need to post the DB entry of CE-Gaara's generic sand shield being given the same hype to stop this terrible hyperbola wanking.


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## Trojan (Oct 20, 2014)

Have you even learned something called goddamn spoiler tag?


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## Cognitios (Oct 20, 2014)

> Do I really need to post the DB entry of CE-Gaara's generic sand shield being given the same hype to stop this terrible hyperbola wanking.



It's not going to stop it. JuicyGG's argument was that everything in the DB is indisputably true and everything in it takes a 100% literal meaning. I contrasted that with this page, which he asked for a source for. I'm taking his argument and using it against him.



> Have you even learned something called goddamn spoiler tag?


Read my second post.


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## Trojan (Oct 20, 2014)

how childish.


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## JuicyG (Oct 20, 2014)

I would say a Sage Mode powered FRS could take it down


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## Alex Payne (Oct 20, 2014)

Madara's non-armored Susano no-sold SM Cho Odama Rasengan. I am not sure about you but I think that a shield with special properties should be a stronger defense than a set of armor it was added to. Because what is the point of adding Yata to Susano if said Susano is already as good? Additional layer of the same defense? But we still got hype and defensive hax.

Either way - even if you assume(for some reason...) that Madara is so much better than Itachi that his lower forms of Susano are as good as Itachi's armored one. And that Yata is simply as strong as Itachi's Armored Susano - simply giving another layer of defense. It still places Yata on the same general level as Madara's incomplete normal Susano which wasn't even fazed by Naruto's attack. And that the lowest possible placing.


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## Cognitios (Oct 20, 2014)

> I would say a Sage Mode powered FRS could take it down



Your entire argument is based on the fact everything Kishimoto says in the DB is pure fact and cannot be refuted.
Yet here i place a page from the DB that clearly states that  Yata Mirror  can repel any attack.



> how childish.


You lack hatred


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## JuicyG (Oct 20, 2014)

Well like stated earlier...since Kirin took YM out, we just need to scale the Rasengan and figure out which verison at least meets Kirin's attack levels....

Though Kirin did a little more than break YM....


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## Kyu (Oct 20, 2014)

> Madara's non-armored Susano no-sold SM Cho Odama Rasengan.



Naruto's clone was clearly in base.


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## Trojan (Oct 20, 2014)

Alex Payne said:


> Madara's non-armored Susano no-sold SM Cho Odama Rasengan. I am not sure about you but I think that a shield with special properties should be a stronger defense than a set of armor it was added to. Because what is the point of adding Yata to Susano if said Susano is already as good? Additional layer of the same defense? But we still got hype and defensive hax.
> 
> Either way - even if you assume(for some reason...) that Madara is so much better than Itachi that his lower forms of Susano are as good as Itachi's armored one. And that Yata is simply as strong as Itachi's Armored Susano - simply giving another layer of defense. It still places Yata on the same general level as Madara's incomplete normal Susano which wasn't even fazed by Naruto's attack. And that the lowest possible placing.



Madara had the Hago's chakra, in addition to his being stronger than Itachi's anyway. U_U


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## Cognitios (Oct 20, 2014)

> Well like stated earlier...since Kirin took YM out, we just need to scale the Rasengan and figure out which verison at least meets Kirin's attack levels....
> 
> Though Kirin did a little more than break YM....


No.
Kirin didn't take Yata Mirror out.
If Yata Mirror was taken out then it wouldn't be 100% intact the next time it was seen.
Kirin didn't even take susanoo out.

Before Kirin hits there is no sign that susanoo is even activated, i just reread the chapter
no-sold
You can too right here.

We only see ribcage susanoo, it's more than likely that ribcage susanoo tanked kirin with no damage.
There is no sign that anything higher than ribcage susano'o was used to tank kirin. And certainly no sign that yata mirror was destroyed.


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## JuicyG (Oct 20, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> No.
> Kirin didn't take Yata Mirror out.
> If Yata Mirror was taken out then it wouldn't be 100% intact the next time it was seen.
> Kirin didn't even take susanoo out.
> ...




It is very odd that someone as intelligent as Itachi would not use YM while fully knowing what was to come in teh next few moments. Why not Susanoo up and use and block with YM agasint Kirin ?


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## Alex Payne (Oct 20, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Naruto's clone was clearly in base.


Oh, my bad. What was the latest SM Cho Odama Rasengan usage?


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## Kyu (Oct 20, 2014)

During Nardo's battle against Kurama.


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## Cognitios (Oct 20, 2014)

> It is very odd that someone as intelligent as Itachi would not use YM while fully knowing what was to come in teh next few moments. Why not Susanoo up and use and block with YM agasint Kirin ?


Susano'o has an activation time, it takes time to form upper layers. The fact he realized he needed it in time to actually activate it is an impressive feat on it's own.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2014)

The mirror itself would be busted, however, when it's inflated by Itachi's top-tier defensive Susano, it won't be.

Susano canonically can be fused with any power, Itachi fused his Susano with his artifact in the same way Sasuke fused his Susano with Naruto's BSM, or infused his Susano with 9 bijuu last chapter.

The mirror itself is likely small and fragile.


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## crisler (Oct 20, 2014)

Didn't madaras' normal susanoo easily destroy narutos' oodama rasengan? 

plus, oodama rasengan is just a larger version of rasengan, whose offensive nature is not that special considering we've had powers like onmyouton etc.

i don't think kishi would have used that term 'invincible' if it can be destroyed by an attack that was already introduced...


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## Trojan (Oct 20, 2014)

crisler said:


> Didn't madaras' normal susanoo easily destroy narutos' oodama rasengan?
> 
> plus, oodama rasengan is just a larger version of rasengan, whose offensive nature is not that special considering we've had powers like onmyouton etc.
> 
> i don't think kishi would have used that term* 'invincible' *if it can be destroyed by an attack that was already introduced...



does not he use that with almost everyone/everything. 
or the like of it I.E strongest...etc


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2014)

> i don't think kishi would have used that term 'invincible' if it can be destroyed by an attack that was already introduced...


Kishi didn't call it invincible, Black Zetsu called Itachi, as a ninja, invincible with the combination of Susano, Yata Mirror and Totsuka. 

While not fused with Susano, Yata Mirror is probably capable of being destroyed. Problem is we've never seen it, so we don't know.


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## JuicyG (Oct 20, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Kishi didn't call it invincible, Black Zetsu called Itachi, as a ninja, invincible with the combination of Susano, Yata Mirror and Totsuka.
> 
> While not fused with Susano, Yata Mirror is probably capable of being destroyed. Problem is we've never seen it, so we don't know.




I agree with DaVizWiz's answer.

Many questions are left about YM since it didnt have many feats. By hype, it can tank anything, but then again by hype Hiruzen _was _Top tier..


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## Phonas (Oct 20, 2014)

The Yata Mirror will synonymously operate in this manner; even the databook, along with the ricocheting of Sasuke and the deflection of the 8-Hydra snake heads, substantiates the following. 





In essence, the Yata will "Mirror" the Odama Rasengan.


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## JuicyG (Oct 20, 2014)

Phonas said:


> The Yata Mirror will synonymously operate in this manner; even the databook, along with the ricocheting of Sasuke and the deflection of the 8-Hydra snake heads, substantiates the following.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Reps for best post in thread...



So YM in essence produces the same exact power that its being attacked by to 'mirror' the damage out put thus blocking the attack


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## Trojan (Oct 20, 2014)

Phonas said:


> The Yata Mirror will synonymously operate in this manner; even the databook, along with the ricocheting of Sasuke and the deflection of the 8-Hydra snake heads, substantiates the following.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



nah, not really. Otherwise we would have seen another Sasuke come out and counterattack Sasuke with their sword, or explosion tags...etc


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## Phonas (Oct 20, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Reps for best post in thread...
> 
> 
> 
> So YM in essence produces the same exact power that its being attacked by to 'mirror' the damage out put thus blocking the attack



Thank you! I'm new here and I'm already receiving reputation points for my first post.

Edit: 

Yes, precisely what you're claiming.


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## Phonas (Oct 20, 2014)

Hussain said:


> nah, not really. Otherwise we would have seen another Sasuke come out and counterattack Sasuke with their sword, or explosion tags...etc



The databook depiction of how it functions, disagrees. The mirroring is not physically seen, but it is supernaturally insinuated considering that the property of the weapon is that of magic.


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## Veracity (Oct 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Do I really need to post the DB entry of CE-Gaara's generic sand shield being given the same hype to stop this terrible hyperbola wanking.



I Actually want to See this.


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I Actually want to See this.


I'll do you one better, here is all the ridiculous hyperbola shit

DB1

Suna-Tate - "protects him from every enemy attack without exception"
Shishienjin - "An absolute barrier Ninjutsu" "there is no way to destroy the formation from the inside the barrier"
Rarikri - "Kakashi's arm becomes a famous blade that can cut
through anything"
Kaiten - "It stands in the same league as Gaara's Sand as an ultimate protection, and was even called "the other Absolute Defense""

DB2

Gamaguchi Shibari - "An inescapable otherworldly space"
Gokusa Maisou - "There is no such thing as a jutsu that allows escape from the flow drawing towards the bottom of the earth..."
Yatai Kuzushi - "All strategies are meaningless! Such is the incomparably hard pressure of the Toad's abdomen!!"
 Kuchiyose: Kirikiri Mai - "An unstoppable wildly dancing blade" "The Kamaitachi cuts through everything with an agility matching the wind!!"
Saikou Zettai Bougyo: Shukaku no Tate, "The minute congregation of sand becomes a shield of solidity unmatched!!" "The sand tanuki stands in the way, stopping the blow from all attacks!!"
Shikotsumyaku - "A flawless offense and defense!", "Truly an omnipotent offense and defense" "For it was the holder of this most powerful of abilities, the clan liked to do battle"
Souzou Saisei - "It's impossible to die by any means"
Tessenka no Mai - Hana - "A weapon that can boast of its absolute solidity whose destructive power is given by the god of battle." "Enhanced to the highest degree-maximum solidity due to the dense compression" "The ultimate destructive power"
Zesshi Nensan - "Thawing, dissolving and melting* into nothingness, the rain of strong acid causes everything to fade away." "All things it touches will melt away, losing their shapes once and for al"

DB3
Doton: Domu - "By invoking this technique the instant an attack hits, one gains an immortal body."
Fuuton: RasenShuriken - "afterwards, nothing remains but the ruins of the enemy and the silence after the storm."
Kekkai: Gama Hyourou - "in the gourd is a tranquil and terrifying barrier space where no escape is possible"
Katon: Zukkoku - "All one sees is turned to dust!!"
Kuchiyose: Sanjuu Rashoumon - "Being able to use this ultimate absolute defence just shows why" "The unique absolute gates, called out from the depths of the Earth" "The "unopenable demons," invited with a double handseal"
Kirin - "This lightspeed attack is impossible to evade. The enemy will be obliterated before they can even blink!!"

Probably missing some, but Kishi gives similar outlandish hype to whatever he feels are some of the strongest jutsu at that time period. If a jutsu is one of the strongest offensive jutsu there is a decewnt chance it will stated capable of destroying/cutting/whathave you anything. If it's one of the strongest defensive techniques it will also be given hype of being able to block anything. Strongest Kekkai, it's said to be capable of keeping anything in. And so on.

It's just how Kishi rolls. Susano'o was one of the strongest techniques and strongest defenses when Itachi revealed it, so Kishi just says it can block anything and make the user invincible. It's not meant literally, it's meant to reflect this being one of the strongest defenses we've seen up to that point.


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## Itachі (Oct 20, 2014)

I wish Kishi actually cared about consistency.


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2014)

Itachі said:


> I wish Kishi actually cared about consistency.



Kishi is consistent within reason. When he gives these hyperbolic statements, they are mostly true in the sense that this is one of the most powerful techniques of it's type at the time.

Kakashi's Rarikiri could pretty much cut through anything at the time of the DBI (I.E. prior to the end of the CE arc). With Shishienjin being one of the few things that may be able to stop it. Gaara's and Neji's ultimate defenses could block nearly everything with only a select few Jutsu like a Rarikiri that could potentially pierce it.

When DBII was released there were very few attacks that stood any chance of getting past Shukaku no Tate. Very few things that stood any chance of killing Tsunade when she had Souzou Saisei  activated. 

Basically this type of hype is consistent in the sense that techniques that receive it are always near or at the top of the food-chain when these statements are made. Itachi's Susano'o follows suit with that as it can withstand nearly any technique we had seen with something like a RasenShuriken or Kirin being some of the few techniques that might be able to destroy it (or not). 

However the power-scale will inevitably increase with each arc, and so will how common techniques that are as strong as the previous top techniques as well as techniques that surpass them. 

So like at the time of DB1 Rarikiri was one of the top offensive techniques, but by DBII we have more techniques that are as strong as Rarikiri and some that are stronger. Hence Rarikiri is no longer hyped as being unblockable and things like CE Gaara and Neji's ultimate defenses are not longer hyped as being able to block everything, because now there are much more techniques that could beat it than the select few before. So now Gaara needs an upgrade to his absolute defense to keep it "absolute", in comes Shukaku Zettai-whatever that is a new technique that can block nearly everything. Same thing with Susano'o, getting many states that are much higher than Itachi's.

There's nothing really wrong with Kishi's system, it's just not as descriptive or precise as the NBD would want it to be for their purposes. In a perfect world Kishi would say these defense can block nearly every technique we've seen, instead of just saying they are unblockable, invincibile, etc.. But Kishi isn't writing with the NBD in mind, but rather writing idea of making these abilities sound cool in mind, so instead of being specific he just strings together some cool sound statement to hype the ability. Like nothing can withstand FRS or everything turns to ash from Zukko. And so on.

Edit: You can always hope that DBIV will hype Yata Mirror in the same way though lol, because then it would pretty much go back to very few techniques in existence being able to beat it. Well that's assuming Kishi keeps to form with only hyping the strongest techniques with these types of hyperbola and he doesn't just start hypng everything to absurd degrees because it's the end of the series.


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## Cognitios (Oct 20, 2014)

So if databook IV states that Yata Mirror belonged to the Sage of Six paths family and is truly invincible then there won't be any arguments about it's durability, right?


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> So if databook IV states that Yata Mirror belonged to the Sage of Six paths family and is truly invincible then there won't be any arguments about it's durability, right?


Here's the criteria for me

1. DB IV Stats Yata Mirror is Invincible (and i'm talking about the one Itachi uses not Hagoromo's, Kaguya's, or what have you)
2. DB IV maintains the trend of giving such hype to strongest jutsu at that time, because if Kishi starts calling shit like Mei's Yoton able to burn through anything than that's off the table

Than I will considering Yata Mirror capable of blocking nearly everything in the verse, sans a select few other top techniques, which may be able to pierce.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 20, 2014)

My Belief is that Itachi didn't block Kirin with Yata. Because I don't think Zetsu(Kishi) would be gobbling on Itachi's balls like that If Yata was busted by Kirin a second earlier. Its common sense really. 
And I do think that Yata is probably at least as durable as V4 Susano'o, and taking its hype and mechanics into account, it should be able to block stuff that Susano'o can't.

With that said, Chou Odamaa rasengan won't even put a dent on Shield of Yata, it harmlessly bounces off.


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## Trojan (Oct 20, 2014)

I hope the s/t barrier get some insane hype as well. Not as if that matters, but oh well...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 20, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I hope the s/t barrier get some insane hype as well. Not as if that matters, but oh well...



DBIV on Minato's STJ barrier : "It can warp anything." Showing Images of Juubi's Bijuudama "Even attacks of this scale are sent away without any problems!"


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## Trojan (Oct 20, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> DBIV on Minato's STJ barrier : "It can warp anything." Showing Images of Juubi's Bijuudama "Even attacks of this scale are sent away without any problems!"



I would take that, but I meant the excuses people put for every damn thing has to do with Minato.

I wish he put some comments on Minato's speed > 8th Gate Gai.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 20, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I would take that, put I meant the excuses people put for every damn thing has to do with Minato.
> 
> I wish he put some comments on Minato's speed > 8th Gate Gai.



I think Minato's speed will recieve pretty decent wank, but it will be nothing like Gai's.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2014)

The OP clearly stated no databook entries are valid in this debate.

I'm in agreement, as even the technique discussions are exaggerated beyond logic. The point scaling itself is comically ridiculous.

So we're left with really nothing to debate about other than Black Zetsu's dialogue description of it, which is questionable. 

People continue to use Itachi's Susano as feats for Yata Mirror, Susano fused with Yata Mirror is likely an infinitely more powerful defense than Yata Mirror itself. Susano is top-tier in defensive feats, it is nearly indestructible by itself, you need *top-tier offense* to even threaten any version above V3. You cannot use that as feats for Yata Mirror.


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## Ghost (Oct 20, 2014)

Yata tanks Odama Rasengan easily. Shit bounces off like a rubber ball.

Obama Rasengan however


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## Nikushimi (Oct 20, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> The mirror itself would be busted, however, when it's inflated by Itachi's top-tier defensive Susano, it won't be.
> 
> Susano canonically can be fused with any power, Itachi fused his Susano with his artifact in the same way Sasuke fused his Susano with Naruto's BSM, or infused his Susano with 9 bijuu last chapter.
> 
> The mirror itself is likely small and fragile.



"Likely" is a strong word when we have absolutely no evidence to go by whatsoever (in regards to the mirror without Susano'o).

The Yata Mirror blocked the Yamata no Jutsu, multiple explosive tags, and Sasuke's Kusanagi without taking any damage; it has feats, even if we haven't seen the actual limit of its capabilities. Fragile is one thing it definitely does not appear to be.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> "Likely" is a strong word when we have absolutely no evidence to go by whatsoever (in regards to the mirror without Susano'o).
> 
> The Yata Mirror blocked the Yamata no Jutsu, multiple explosive tags, and Sasuke's Kusanagi without taking any damage; it has feats, even if we haven't seen the actual limit of its capabilities. Fragile is one thing it definitely does not appear to be.


Considering Itachi was fighting Sasuke without the mirror visible on his body suggests it was clearly small, the same can be said for the Totsuka Blade (which is likely a knife). 

No it did not, the yata mirror fused with Itachi's MS V3 Warrior Susano blocked the above techniques. In truth, he really didn't need the mirror at all.

Are you incapable of understanding that Susano, a legendary top-tier defensive technique (straight from Indra), was fused with this spiritual weapon to create a super-defense?


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## Csdabest (Oct 20, 2014)

Yata Has never failed. Kishi has made his statements clear on it. Therefor As long as you can block with it. Your Good. Like Danzo You have to not aim for the sheild.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 20, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> The OP clearly stated no databook entries are valid in this debate.
> 
> I'm in agreement, as even the technique discussions are exaggerated beyond logic. The point scaling itself is comically ridiculous.
> 
> ...



Yata mirrior is an extension of Itachi's Susano'o. The weapons Susano'o wields would be on Susanoo's level, logically. 
I see no reason to assume that the shield is somewhat inferior to Susano'o in defensive properties, or to be below its level. That makes no sense.

Those weapons are a part of Imperial Regalia and hyped beyond belief.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yata mirrior is an extension of Itachi's Susano'o. The weapons Susano'o wields would be on Susanoo's level, logically.
> I see no reason to assume that the shield is somewhat inferior to Susano'o in defensive properties, or to be below its level. That makes no sense.
> 
> Those weapons are a part of Imperial Regalia and hyped beyond belief.


No, it is not an extension of Susano. It was not Itachi's power, it was an artifact of legend that actually existed. Itachi combined it with his Susano, they are two different sources of power. 

It is definitely inferior as 
1. It has no feats by itself
2. Susano, currently, has transformed to the point of blocking multiple Rikudo BSM Naruto strikes without any damage (Sasuke's version) 

If you think Yata Mirror is anywhere near Susano's level of defense, you are definitely on the losing end, pal.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 20, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, it is not an extension of Susano. It was not Itachi's power, it was an artifact of legend that actually existed. Itachi combined it with his Susano, they are two different sources of power.


Do you have any proof for this ? Or are you talking out of your ass as usual ? 



> It is definitely inferior as
> 1. It has no feats by itself


It has feats of blocking Yamata no jutsu, explosive  tags and Sasuke's katana.



> 2. Susano, currently, has transformed to the point of blocking multiple Rikudo BSM Naruto strikes without any damage (Sasuke's version)


Completely irrelevant.



> If you think Yata Mirror is anywhere near Susano's level of defense, you are definitely on the losing end, pal.


I think you can't back up anything you've said so far. So far, you've proved that you are incapable of using common sense.


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## Bonly (Oct 20, 2014)

Yata should be able to block a Odama Rasengan and a Chou Odama Rasengan


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## Gibbs (Oct 20, 2014)

Yata has been overhyped by the fans & Zetsu's comments. It truly has not been tested to it's limits. Throw a bijuu Dama at it and we shall see what happens.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2014)

> Do you have any proof for this ? Or are you talking out of your ass as usual ?


The proof is in the manga. The device is not part of the technique known as Susano, it was fused with it. 



> It has feats of blocking Yamata no jutsu, explosive  tags and Sasuke's katana.


No it does not. Itachi's Susano enhanced with Yata Mirror blocked it. Susano was activated for a reason, read the manga. 

If he didn't need Susano, he would have held the mirror itself out. 



> I think you can't back up anything you've said so far. So far, you've proved that you are incapable of using common sense.


Dude, stop baiting me.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 20, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> The proof is in the manga. The device is not part of the technique known as Susano, it was fused with it.


Again, can you post scans ? 



> No it does not. Itachi's Susano enhanced with Yata Mirror blocked it. Susano was activated for a reason, read the manga.


What the fuck is Susano'O enhanced Yata ? 

Eitherway whats the fucking difference ? We are discussing "Susano'o enhanced Yata" here 



> If he didn't need Susano, he would have held the mirror itself out.


Ok, don't panic, but I think you just beat your own argument.


> Dude, stop baiting me.


I wasn't. I really think you have trouble relating to common sense. Just basing this off your posts here.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2014)

> Again, can you post scans ?


[1]



> What the fuck is Susano'O enhanced Yata ?


[1]



> Eitherway whats the fucking difference ? We are discussing "Susano'o enhanced Yata" here


No, we're not. The title didn't suggest anything about "Yata enhanced Susano"



> I wasn't. I really think you have trouble relating to common sense. Just basing this off your posts here.


I asked you to stop baiting. You need to calm down, dude. Stop insulting me.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 20, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> [1]
> 
> 
> [1]



Ok where does it say Yata is fused with Susano'o ? We just see Susano'o wielding Yata.

Are you suggesting that Sasuke found that bow & arrow and fused it with his Susano'o ? 



> No, we're not. The title didn't suggest anything about "Yata enhanced Susano"


But thats the only Yata we know isn't it ? 
I mean, did we see Yata outside Susano'o ? 

If not, why are you even bringing that up ? Whats the point ?



> I asked you to stop baiting. You need to calm down, dude. Stop insulting me.


I am clam. Are you calm ? You don't seem calm.


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## JuicyG (Oct 20, 2014)

There must be a limit of the amount of damage YM can tank if it doesnt actually act like a mirror like some of us are thinking. I was recently under the impression that YM just reproduces the same attack strength to match the incoming attack which in turn acts like a mirror and simply repels it.


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## Phonas (Oct 20, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> There must be a limit of the amount of damage YM can tank if it doesnt actually act like a mirror like some of us are thinking. I was recently under the impression that YM just reproduces the same attack strength to match the incoming attack which in turn acts like a mirror and simply repels it.



But your recent impression is actually correct. That's precisely how it works. The Yata isn't even physical, so therefore it's physically, astrally, and materially impervious? In other words, it's a thaumaturgical, incorporeal spirit. How do you break a spirit? Or even anything that has no physical form? Bringing the point home, because the Yata is associated with divinity and magic (and is the only item in the NV that is), it's basically portrayed as having no limits. Every other hypberolic statement on other jutsus and such can't be taken literally when they are in the bounds of Naruto world limitations, which the Yata has been implied to not be. There's a huge difference.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2014)

> Ok where does it say Yata is fused with Susano'o ? We just see Susano'o wielding Yata.


Susano wielding Yata is a fusion of Susano and Yata as a defense.

The actual mirror is part of Itachi's Susano construct, you can tell by looking at it, it's carrying it as a shield with the same colored chakra as his Susano, and roughly the same size. He is channeling the weapon's abilities through his Susano. 



> Are you suggesting that Sasuke found that bow & arrow and fused it with his Susano'o ?


No, just as I'm not suggesting that Madara and Itachi found shurikens (Magatamas) or swords (Susano Blade).

The arrow, the sword/blade, the shurikens are part of Susanos. Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade are not- they are individual weapons that are fused with Itachi's Susano. 



> But thats the only Yata we know isn't it ?
> I mean, did we see Yata outside Susano'o ?


No, which is why it has no feats. 



> I am clam. Are you calm ? You don't seem calm.


Good. Now stay calm, and don't insult people.


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## Invictus-Kun (Oct 21, 2014)

Yata mirror will disintegrate, but will be reformed, it can't just hold so much Power


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 21, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Susano wielding Yata is a fusion of Susano and Yata as a defense.
> 
> The actual mirror is part of Itachi's Susano construct, you can tell by looking at it, it's carrying it as a shield with the same colored chakra as his Susano, and roughly the same size. He is channeling the weapon's abilities through his Susano.



Ok assume I agree with you a second there. What difference does it make ? No one is comparing shield of Yata to the "Susano'o Enhanced Yata" here. We all are talking about the latter.



> No, just as I'm not suggesting that Madara and Itachi found shurikens (Magatamas) or swords (Susano Blade).
> 
> The arrow, the sword/blade, the shurikens are part of Susanos. Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade are not- they are individual weapons that are fused with Itachi's Susano.


But Yasaka no Magatama is also a part of the imperial regalia.



> No, which is why it has no feats.


Then why do you even bring that up ? Or make that distinction 



> Good. Now stay calm, and don't insult people.



Thats too much to ask. Let me at least insult like once a day or once a debate


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## Turrin (Oct 21, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> My Belief is that Itachi didn't block Kirin with Yata. Because I don't think Zetsu(Kishi) would be gobbling on Itachi's balls like that If Yata was busted by Kirin a second earlier. Its common sense really.


Kishi still firmly had Kimimaro's balls in his mouth, when it comes to Tessenka no Mai - Hana, even many chapters after we saw Hana shattered by Saikou Zettai Bougyo: Shukaku no Tate. 

DBII:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Tessenka no Mai - Hana - "A weapon that can boast of its absolute solidity whose destructive power is given by the god of battle." "Enhanced to the highest degree-maximum solidity due to the dense compression" "The ultimate destructive power"




In-fact even if you think about it, the very fact that Kirin destroyed Susano'o whether it hit the mirror or not, makes the statements about Itachi's Susnao'o nonsensical, if taken literally.

Zetsu says, "HE IS TRULY INVINCIBLE--" 

However we literally just saw Kirin waste Itachi's Susano'o (whether it hit the mirror or not, it did), defense and if it was just a bit stronger it would have killed Itachi. So the only way that statement would even make sense is if Kirin's offensive potential could not be surpassed. But successive arcs show it vastly surpassed. So it makes no sense from a character stand point, that the sentient will of Kaguya would be gobbling Itachi balls to the extent of calling him invincible anyway, after already whitnessing a Kirin level technique which is absolutely insignicant compared to Kaguya's abilities being just a tad shy in the strength necessary to kill him.

The same thing with Kishi's ball gobbling in the DB, saying it boast a flawless defense, when again we literally saw a Jutsu that was just a tad shy in the power necessary to beat that defense despite it being woefully weak when compared to many things seen in successive arcs.

So whether the mirror was used or not the ball gobbling doesn't make sense, from the stand-point your arguing it from anyway.

Thee only way it makes sense is from a temporal aspect. I.E. at that point in the manga Kirin was one of the strongest Jutsu Kishi had shown, and Susano'o protected Itachi from it. Therefore at that moment in the manga Susano'o/Yata deserved that level of ball gobbling because it was one of the greatest defenses Kishi had shown so far and as such could defend against nearly every technique/ability that had been used up to that point, which was reflected by it defending Itachi from Kirin even if it was wasted in the process.



JuicyG said:


> There must be a limit of the amount of damage YM can tank if it doesnt actually act like a mirror like some of us are thinking. I was recently under the impression that YM just reproduces the same attack strength to match the incoming attack which in turn acts like a mirror and simply repels it.


The mirror aspect is clearly detailed in the DB. When an attack is incoming it mirrors the opposing affinity to cancel it out. The problem with that is it still needs to be able to produce that opposing affinity (or nature alteration) on the level of the incoming attack, in-order to cancel it out. If it produces the opposing nature alteration on a lower level than it will still be overcome by the incoming attacks. This is ultimately where the problem lies with it being literally invincible, because we'd have to believe the level of it's opposing nature affinity can increase limitlessly, so even against Sasuke's God-Susano'o Raiton arrows, it could still produce a Fuuton nature alteration at the same level to counter it. Not only is this problematic because of lack of feats that are anywhere close to that, or even hype (as i've spoken about how the hype should be taken in a temporal sense, rather than a literal tsense), but also because it necessitates the belief in a no limits fallacy. Additionally we are given no indication of how it handles itself against shape alteration techniques, raw chakra techniques, multi-elements, elemental fusions, or elemental expansions, all of which can not be countered by it simply taking on an opposing nature alteration, so we'd have to grant it additional powers like being able to take on the same level of Raw-Chakra, Shape Alteration, Multi Natures, Elemental Fusions, and Expansion for it to work seem-lessly on all techniques, which requires even further no limits fallacies, that nether it's statements or feats support.

As for how Yagura's mirror's limitations we do not know that, but we do know that it has shown to work in a different way than Yata has ever been shown to, in that it doesn't just mirror the opposing nature alteration, but creates a mirror image of the attack, so it covers a greater range of different attacks than Yata which is primarily concerned with Affinities. However much like I doubt that Yata can alter it's self to the opposing nature w/o limits, I doubt Yaguya's mirror can create a copy of the opposing attack w/o limits, it's probably dependent on Yagura's chakra. So if someone creates a attack that has more chakra than Yagura can produce he probably can't create a reflection in his mirror of the attack; likewise it might also have to do with the complexity of the attack, like him being unable to mirror something like a FRS. Etc... basically we don't really know and hopefully we'll get more insight in the DB


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## SSMG (Oct 21, 2014)

I agree with turrin.. theres no reason to believe all the hype about itachi and his susanno.

BZ claimed otachi is invicible while using his sheild and sword.combo... yet itachi died while having that vombo out so tjat statememt can be thrown out.

and if the DB is correct then itachi cant activate his mirror in time to block lightning.. so naruto could hit him before its up... if he did get it up in time it got bustd by lightning and thus gets rekt by maybe not Odama rasenn but by stuff liken rasenshurikens and up.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Kishi still firmly had Kimimaro's balls in his mouth, when it comes to Tessenka no Mai - Hana, even many chapters after we saw Hana shattered by Saikou Zettai Bougyo: Shukaku no Tate.
> 
> DBII:
> 
> ...



Wait, did Kishimoto hype Tessenka no Mai after it was shattered by Saikou Zettai in the manga? 

Because Databook description expands on its initial description and is full of hyperboles.

In Amaterasu's entry it says "there is no jutsu to escape its fury" despite both Sasuke and Obito escaping it. 

I am talking about the Manga. Zetsu wouldn't hype the mirror if Kirin shattered it a second ago.
"Databook hype" is completely irrelevant to my argument.




> In-fact even if you think about it, the very fact that Kirin destroyed Susano'o whether it hit the mirror or not, makes the statements about Itachi's Susnao'o nonsensical, if taken literally.
> 
> Zetsu says, "HE IS TRULY INVINCIBLE--"


He says "*with the items*, he is truly invincible."

Context my friend. This actually solidifies my argument even further. Zetsu calls Susano'o invincible after he describes the items.




> However we literally just saw Kirin waste Itachi's Susano'o (whether it hit the mirror or not, it did), defense and if it was just a bit stronger it would have killed Itachi. So the only way that statement would even make sense is if Kirin's offensive potential could not be surpassed. But successive arcs show it vastly surpassed. So it makes no sense from a character stand point, that the sentient will of Kaguya would be gobbling Itachi balls to the extent of calling him invincible anyway, after already whitnessing a Kirin level technique which is absolutely insignicant compared to Kaguya's abilities being just a tad shy in the strength necessary to kill him.


Read above.



> The same thing with Kishi's ball gobbling in the DB, saying it boast a flawless defense, when again we literally saw a Jutsu that was just a tad shy in the power necessary to beat that defense despite it being woefully weak when compared to many things seen in successive arcs.
> 
> So whether the mirror was used or not the ball gobbling doesn't make sense, from the stand-point your arguing it from anyway.
> 
> Thee only way it makes sense is from a temporal aspect. I.E. at that point in the manga Kirin was one of the strongest Jutsu Kishi had shown, and Susano'o protected Itachi from it. Therefore at that moment in the manga Susano'o/Yata deserved that level of ball gobbling because it was one of the greatest defenses Kishi had shown so far and as such could defend against nearly every technique/ability that had been used up to that point, which was reflected by it defending Itachi from Kirin even if it was wasted in the process.



I have no idea why you even bring up databook into this.

I am not trying to justify Yata's hype.

All I am saying is, Zetsu wouldn't hype Yata's defensive capabilities if he witnessed it get shattered literally a second ago. Taking that into account, it is safe to conclude that Itachi didn't use Yata to protect himself from Kirin.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 21, 2014)

> Ok assume I agree with you a second there. What difference does it make ? No one is comparing shield of Yata to the "Susano'o Enhanced Yata" here. We all are talking about the latter.


The OP didn't make the distinction, Grimmjow.

If the Title said "Itachi's Susano Yata Mirror" there would be no debate here.

Yata Mirror is an individual spiritual tool. 



> But Yasaka no Magatama is also a part of the imperial regalia.


So your logic is because Itachi has it with Susano, that it belongs to Itachi's Susano?

It doesn't man, the same way the 9 bijuu do not belong to Sasuke's Current Susano. They are separate powers with separate origins, fused with it. 



> hats too much to ask. Let me at least insult like once a day or once a debate


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## Turrin (Oct 21, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Wait, did Kishimoto hype Tessenka no Mai after it was shattered by Saikou Zettai in the manga?


It shouldn't matter if it's in the DB or the manga, Kishi is the author of both. So if see's fit to hype something astronomically even if it falls short in the DB, it's not at all shocking that he would do so in the manga-cannon Further enforced by the fact that Kishi has Zetsu call Itachi invincible right after showing that if Kirin was just a bit stronger he'd be dead.



> I am talking about the Manga. Zetsu wouldn't hype the mirror if Kirin shattered it a second ago.
> He says "with the items, he is truly invincible."
> 
> Context my friend. This actually solidifies my argument even further. Zetsu calls Susano'o invincible after he describes the items.


Yes and Itachi's Susano'o has always had the weapons, yet despite having these weapons we literally saw that if Kirin was just a bit stronger Itachi would be dead. Yet Zetsu still states Itachi is invincible after that event.

It doesn't matter if Itachi had the chance to use Yata as a shield or not, because for according to Zetsu's statement just having the items + Susano'o should make him invincible. I wasn't that the Yata Mirror is invincible it was that Itachi is invincble so long as he posssed those powers. Yet Zetsu just saw him a hairs breath away from dying to Kirin, a Jutsu Zetsu should know is weak sauce compared to many more powerful Jutsu. 



> All I am saying is, Zetsu wouldn't hype Yata's defensive capabilities if he witnessed it get shattered literally a second ago. Taking that into account, it is safe to conclude that Itachi didn't use Yata to protect himself from Kirin.


The thing is he would, because Zetsu was just acting as the author's mouth piece to hype the Jutsu. So for the same reason he just witnessed that any jutsu stronger than Kirin could kill Itachi, and still stated he was invincible, he would also hype the shield even if Kirin could have shattered it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> It shouldn't matter if it's in the DB or the manga, Kishi is the author of both. So if see's fit to hype something astronomically even if it falls short in the DB, it's not at all shocking that he would do so in the manga-cannon Further enforced by the fact that Kishi has Zetsu call Itachi invincible right after showing that if Kirin was just a bit stronger he'd be dead.
> 
> 
> Yes and Itachi's Susano'o has always had the weapons, yet despite having these weapons we literally saw that if Kirin was just a bit stronger Itachi would be dead. Yet Zetsu still states Itachi is invincible after that event.
> ...



Nothing you said refutes my argument. Databook has nothing to do with it, I already told you Databook explains jutsu as if they are introduced from scratch, it doesn't take in manga circumstances into account, otherwise it wouldn't say "there is no jutsu to escape its fury" in regards to Amaterasu.

I'll repeat once more, If Itachi used Yata to protect himself from Kirin and it got destroyed in the process, then Zetsu wouldn't say "shield is reflecting all of Sasuke's attacks" and later on say "with the sword and shield he is completely invincible." 

It is common sense really.


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## SSMG (Oct 21, 2014)

But that statement is moot.. he was stated to be completely invicible with those items.. and then died with those items active which makes the statement of been being invicible moot. since its moot theres no reason to use that statement in any debate.


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## Turrin (Oct 21, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nothing you said refutes my argument. Databook has nothing to do with it, I already told you Databook explains jutsu as if they are introduced from scratch, , otherwise it wouldn't say "there is no jutsu to escape its fury" in regards to Amaterasu.
> 
> I'll repeat once more, If Itachi used Yata to protect himself from Kirin and it got destroyed in the process, then Zetsu wouldn't say "shield is reflecting all of Sasuke's attacks" and later on say "with the sword and shield he is completely invincible."
> 
> It is common sense really.


I think your missing my point. Your looking at this from a character perspective, I.E. it's common-sense that Zetsu wouldn't call a shield is able to block anything, if he had already witnessed it being destroy previously by Kirin, as otherwise it wouldn't make sense. However Zetsu also said with Yata/Totsuka/Susano'o Itachi is invincible, however Zetsu just witnessed the fact that if Kirin was only a tad bit stronger Itachi would have been defeated. Given this it doesn't make sense that Zetsu would call Itachi invincible because from a common sense perspective he just witnessed a very clear indication that Itachi is not invincible with Kirin nearly killing him.

So what we end up with is that looking at things from a character perspective is no reliable in this instance. Kishi probably wasn't thinking about what made sense for Zetsu to say, but rather just thinking about how to get across to fans, in a cool (or hyped fashion), that Itachi's Susano'o w/ Yata/Totuska is one of the strongest Jutsu he's shown. Therefore we can't trust Zetsu to have employed common-sense from a character perspective when it comes to what your arguing ether. Even if he just saw the shield busted, Kishi could have easily still had him make such a statement, for the sake of hype and said fuck common sense, the same way he did with the "invincible" statement.

The reason I bring up the DB is that it examplifies that Kishi had no problem hyping Jutsu as unstoppable, can block anything, etc... even despite the fact that they have been blocked or defenses broken. That's just the way Kishi operates with giving out hype.



> it doesn't take in manga circumstances into account


Yes it does, as it very blatantly states manga circumstances in various Jutsu entries. For example, shit like this, "Before such hardness, even Kimimaro's impeccable offensive is shattered." Right in that entry it references when Shukaku no Tate shattered Kimi's Hana, but than in the Hana entry Kishi still states it's solidity is absolute and nothing can stop it's godly power. 

Your example of Amaterasu, is just another example that illustrates my point that Kishi is perfectly willing to throw out generic hype, such as unavoidable, unblockable, invincible, etc... even after directly showing and acknowledging that these Jutsu/abilities/weapons can indeed be avoided, blocked, and are not invincible.

Therefore while your logic would be sound in most situations, it does not make sense given the way Kishi chooses to write his story, which is all the matters.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I think your missing my point. Your looking at this from a character perspective, I.E. it's common-sense that Zetsu wouldn't call a shield is able to block anything, if he had already witnessed it being destroy previously by Kirin, as otherwise it wouldn't make sense. However Zetsu also said with Yata/Totsuka/Susano'o Itachi is invincible, however Zetsu just witnessed the fact that if Kirin was only a tad bit stronger Itachi would have been defeated. Given this it doesn't make sense that Zetsu would call Itachi invincible because from a common sense perspective he just witnessed a very clear indication that Itachi is not invincible with Kirin nearly killing him.


Again, you are omitting details to suit your argument.
Zetsu said "Shield is reflecting all of Sasuke's attacks." Then described the shield as a shield that can turn back any attack and then he said "with the items Itachi is iinvincible." 
The only common sense here is that Itachi wasn't using the items against Kirin.
Your subjective conclusion based on databook hyperbole which isn't totally reliable doesn't make sense.



> So what we end up with is that looking at things from a character perspective is no reliable in this instance. Kishi probably wasn't thinking about what made sense for Zetsu to say, but rather just thinking about how to get across to fans, in a cool (or hyped fashion), that Itachi's Susano'o w/ Yata/Totuska is one of the strongest Jutsu he's shown. Therefore we can't trust Zetsu to have employed common-sense from a character perspective when it comes to what your arguing ether. Even if he just saw the shield busted, Kishi could have easily still had him make such a statement, for the sake of hype and said fuck common sense, the same way he did with the "invincible" statement.


I think Kishimoto didn't overthink this as much as you did. Itachi activated Susano'o and blocked Kirin with a lower stage version, and after he got up, he activated its last stage with the items and Kishimoto called him invincible.
Thats the chronological order. 
So the only logical conclusion  we can derive from these events is that Itachi didn't use the complete Susano'O to defend himself from Kirin and he didn't use the items. It is pretty simple.



> The reason I bring up the DB is that it examplifies that Kishi had no problem hyping Jutsu as unstoppable, can block anything, etc... even despite the fact that they have been blocked or defenses broken. That's just the way Kishi operates with giving out hype.


For the last time, Databook is irrelevant here. My argument is solely based on in manga interraction of characters and I already proved that databook explain jutsu from scratch.




> Yes it does, as it very blatantly states manga circumstances in various Jutsu entries. For example, shit like this, "Before such hardness, even Kimimaro's impeccable offensive is shattered." Right in that entry it references when Shukaku no Tate shattered Kimi's Hana, but than in the Hana entry Kishi still states it's solidity is absolute and nothing can stop it's godly power.
> 
> Your example of Amaterasu, is just another example that illustrates my point that Kishi is perfectly willing to throw out generic hype, such as unavoidable, unblockable, invincible, etc... even after directly showing and acknowledging that these Jutsu/abilities/weapons can indeed be avoided, blocked, and are not invincible.
> 
> Therefore while your logic would be sound in most situations, it does not make sense given the way Kishi chooses to write his story, which is all the matters.



Ok lets say it sometimes does, it sometimes doesn't. But it doesn't change the fact that it is irrelevenat. I am specifically talking about an "In manga" interraction here, which has nothing to do with databook hyperbole. You are just bringing in something completely irrelevant to refute my point. Which doesn't make sense, considering Databook descriptions and hyperboles barely take in manga circumstances into account.
.



SSMG said:


> But that statement is moot.. he was stated to be completely invicible with those items.. and then died with those items active which makes the statement of been being invicible moot. since its moot theres no reason to use that statement in any debate.



Unless you are mentally retarded, you are trolling which is bad and you should feel bad.


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## Turrin (Oct 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Again, you are omitting details to suit your argument.
> Zetsu said "Shield is reflecting all of Sasuke's attacks." Then described the shield as a shield that can turn back any attack and then he said "with the items Itachi is iinvincible."
> The only common sense here is that Itachi wasn't using the items against Kirin.
> Your subjective conclusion based on databook hyperbole which isn't totally reliable doesn't make sense.
> .


That's literally what I just said. My issue with it is that Zetsu in the Manga also says Itachi is invincible, which also makes no sense given what he had just seen.



> I think Kishimoto didn't overthink this as much as you did. Itachi activated Susano'o and blocked Kirin with a lower stage version, and after he got up, he activated its last stage with the items and Kishimoto called him invincible.
> Thats the chronological order.
> So the only logical conclusion we can derive from these events is that Itachi didn't use the complete Susano'O to defend himself from Kirin and he didn't use the items. It is pretty simple.


It doesn't matter the order or whether he had the items out or not, he still should have been invincible according to Zetsu, just from having the items & susano'o as a technique he could use, however as we saw he was very much vincible. So Zetsu conclusion doesn't make sense.



> Ok lets say it sometimes does, it sometimes doesn't. But it doesn't change the fact that it is irrelevenat. I am specifically talking about an "In manga" interraction here, which has nothing to do with databook hyperbole. You are just bringing in something completely irrelevant to refute my point. Which doesn't make sense, considering Databook descriptions and hyperboles barely take in manga circumstances into account.


alright here's an example from the manga then. Kishi has Sasuke hype Susano'o as an absolute defense, even though his own Kirin Obliterated Susano'o before:

Sasuke: Gaara... This Absolute Defence surpasses even your own.

Something which also wouldn't make sense from a character perspective. In-fact he's also basically calling Gaara's defense absolute as well, despite acknowledging it's an inferior defense.


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## Bloo (Oct 22, 2014)

I don't see how people try to make the contention that Kirin broke through Yata Mirror... The last panel we see of Itachi while Kirin is about to hit Itachi (at speeds of 1/1000th of a second), we don't see Susano'o. He must have activated it insanely fast to the point where it was a very low stage of Susano'o and Yata Mirror has been seen with at least V2 Susano'o. So, to prove that contention you would need to prove that Susano'o V2 was summoned that quickly and then go on to prove that Yata Mirror was as well summoned. I'm in a class about proofs, and there's no way to prove that. There's simply not enough evidence. We can infer that he used a very weak version of Susano'o given the time constraint and that's it. If we build on that inference, then we can say that Yata Mirror can handle attacks with the strength of Kirin or more given that a weak version of Susano'o made Itachi survive the assault and if we assume that Yata Mirror is a stronger defense than Susano'o (given the hype and the fact that if it were weaker there would be no point for Itachi's Susano'o to wield it).

Unless someone wants to draw up a legitimate proof out of thin air that Itachi irrefutably used Yata Mirror for Kirin, then the entire opposing argument for this thread loses.



SSMG said:


> But that statement is moot.. he was stated to be completely invicible with those items.. and then died with those items active which makes the statement of been being invicible moot. since its moot theres no reason to use that statement in any debate.


I don't understand what this post is trying to accomplish..?


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## Kai (Oct 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> It doesn't matter the order or whether he had the items out or not, he still should have been invincible according to Zetsu, just from having the items & susano'o as a technique he could use, however as we saw he was very much vincible. So Zetsu conclusion doesn't make sense.


You have the chronology backwards.

Zetsu didn't consider Itachi "invincible" at any juncture before seeing those items. Only when he saw Itachi wield those legendary items along with his Susano'o did he deem Itachi invincible.


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## SSMG (Oct 22, 2014)

"Unless you are mentally retarded, you are trolling which is bad and you should feel bad."

lol someone doesnt know what invincible means.  

But if you wanna use statements that get disproven right after they are stated than Guys hirudora is a one punch kill regardless of its feats. XD


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> That's literally what I just said. My issue with it is that Zetsu in the Manga also says Itachi is invincible, which also makes no sense given what he had just seen.


Zetsu said "With those items covering both ends(defense & offense) he is completely invincible." 
Tell me exactly what refutes that statement ? 

I





> t doesn't matter the order or whether he had the items out or not, he still should have been invincible according to Zetsu, just from having the items & susano'o as a technique he could use, however as we saw he was very much vincible. So Zetsu conclusion doesn't make sense.



The order matters. Zetsu hyped the shield when it came out and claimed Itachi was invincible. What happened before that is completely irrelevant.




> alright here's an example from the manga then. Kishi has Sasuke hype Susano'o as an absolute defense, even though his own Kirin Obliterated Susano'o before:


Absolute defense doesn't mean invincible. He was just saying that his defense was greater than Gaara's. 



> Something which also wouldn't make sense from a character perspective. In-fact he's also basically calling Gaara's defense absolute as well, despite acknowledging it's an inferior defense.



I don't follow man... Really. 



SSMG said:


> lol someone doesnt know what invincible means.



You don't know what context means. When Zetsu said "he is completely invincible" he didn't mean that Itachi is immortal. He just meant that with the sword and the shield, he is unbeatable in combat.
And no one here is trying to debate the genuinity of that statement. Debate is about something else entirely.


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## SSMG (Oct 22, 2014)

Main Entry: in?vin?ci?ble Pronunciation: \(ˌ)in-ˈvin(t)-sə-bəl\Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Late Latin; Middle French, from Late Latin invincibilis, from Latin in- + vincere to conquer — more at VICTOR Date: 15th century : incapable of being conquered, overcome, or subdued

Itachi was conquered, overcome and subdued by his illness with both artifacts up and running which makes the statement moot. You can keep using a moot statement for the basis of your whole stance.. and ill continue to point this out to you.

And yes i did bring up the statements genuintity to which ypu responded to me.. so we are infact discussing the statements merits or lack of.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 22, 2014)

You can't even troll properly. I don't have anything else to say to you.


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## SSMG (Oct 22, 2014)

The only one out of us two who is trolling is you. 

Im just showing you how zetsus statement cannot be used to hype the mirror.


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## Turrin (Oct 22, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Zetsu said "With those items covering both ends(defense & offense) he is completely invincible."
> Tell me exactly what refutes that statement ?


Where did you get that random trans

C-net has it as, "-NO DOUBT ABOUT IT... IT'S ANOTHER ARTIFACT-- / --THE YATA-NO-KAGAMI, ABLE TO REPEL ANYTHING... AND FOR ATTACK, HE HAS THE TOTSUKA-NO-TSURUGI-- // --_WITH BOTH, HE IS TRULY INVINCIBLE--_"

Again Zetsu is saying that just the act of having them makes him invincible. 



> The order matters. Zetsu hyped the shield when it came out and claimed Itachi was invincible. What happened before that is completely irrelevant.


I am also talking about the order. 



> Absolute defense doesn't mean invincible. He was just saying that his defense was greater than Gaara's.


Absolute in this context means "perfect". A "perfect" defense should never be overcome by anything, because it's "perfect". Sasuke states his defense is "perfect" even knowing Kirin can overcome it, he also states Gaara's defense is "perfect" despite claiming his defense is more "perfect", which is an oxymoron, in the same way that Zetsu could be claiming that Yata's defense is "perfect", despite just witnessing Kirin overcome it.

Basically Kishi has no problem having characters commit oxymorons, if it gets his overarching point across.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Where did you get that random trans
> 
> C-net has it as, "-NO DOUBT ABOUT IT... IT'S ANOTHER ARTIFACT-- / --THE YATA-NO-KAGAMI, ABLE TO REPEL ANYTHING... AND FOR ATTACK, HE HAS THE TOTSUKA-NO-TSURUGI-- // --_WITH BOTH, HE IS TRULY INVINCIBLE--_"



changed
Essentially they are the same thing. "repel anything" = defense "for attack" = offense.

Stop nitpicking lmao.



> Again Zetsu is saying that just the act of having them makes him invincible.




Lets say you have rabies vaccine in your fridge. I know about this and say "you don't need to worry about rabies, with that vaccine, you are immune." 

Now do I mean that having it in  your fridge makes you immune to rabies or having the capability of using the vaccine when you are in need makes you immune ? Obviously its the latter. If you don't use it, you aren't immune to it.

If Itachi doesn't use those items in combat, he isn't invincible. "Just having them" doesn't make him invincible. Zetsu's wording "yata for defense and totsuka for offense" makes it perfeclty clear.



> I am also talking about the order.


Then why do you even bring databook hype in to the debate ? 



> Absolute in this context means "perfect". A "perfect" defense should never be overcome by anything, because it's "perfect". Sasuke states his defense is "perfect" even knowing Kirin can overcome it, he also states Gaara's defense is "perfect" despite claiming his defense is more "perfect", which is an oxymoron, in the same way that Zetsu could be claiming that Yata's defense is "perfect", despite just witnessing Kirin overcome it.


This is irrelevant though. 
I don't see how you are able to make a connection. It'd only be similar, If Sasuke's susano'o got busted in that confrontation and Zetsu(or another knowledgeable observer) came out and said "Sasuke's Susano'o can't be busted."

edit : And contextually you are wrong. Absolute can't be perfect in that sense. Because Sasuke says "my defense is more absolute than yours", you can't be more perfect than perfect. 


> Basically Kishi has no problem having characters commit oxymorons, if it gets his overarching point across.


They aren't even remotely similar. And in this particular case we'r talking about, contextually, it makes no sense for Zetsu to hype the shield for its abilities if he saw the shield not being able to perform those abilities a second ago. Unless he is retarded, which we know he isn't. 

Like I said, your examples, and this example are nothing alike.


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## JPongo (Oct 22, 2014)

I'd like to say that OR would beat YM but if I know Kishi, his intention would be to show YM tanking at least.

Maybe Kirin broke YM defense due to Itachi being sick and almost out of charkra at that time so he wasn't strong enough to keep it up.

Itachi being invincible was definitely a hyperbole but it was due to having Susano'o along with a couple of legendary ethereal items.  Nonetheless, it was a very formidable defense.


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## Turrin (Oct 22, 2014)

@Grimmjowsensei

Okay I can see the way I was trying to explain this isn't getting through to you, and perhaps I'm having a hard time explaining it. So I'll try to go about this another way.

Zetsu knows about the powers of characters like Kaguya, Indra, Hashirama and Madara correct? So contextually, it makes no sense for Zetsu to hype Itachi as invincible, if he saw characters that could waste him before. Unless he is retarded, which we know he isn't. Given this we must assume even Kaguya, Indra, Hashirama, Madara, could not defeat Itachi while he used Susano'o w/ the weapons.

I think you can agree this is flat out not true. Therefore, we have to accept that Kishi threw away Zetsu's intelligence/knowledge for the sake of hype. Now that we've established Zetsu's intelligence was thrown away for the sake of this hype, I don't see how we can than fall back on Zetsu's intelligence as reliable guide as far as other parts of the hype are concerned.

For example if Zetsu is moron to the point of forgetting about Kaguya/Madara/Indra/Hashirama's strength for the sake of hype. I see no reason why he wouldn't be moronic enough to forget Kirin wasting Yata for the sake of hype.


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## Dr. White (Oct 22, 2014)

It got calced at 12kt. I don't think it can bust Yata though.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 22, 2014)

didn't regular v4 tank this attack already? if so i don't see it busting the mirror


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Grimmjowsensei
> 
> Okay I can see the way I was trying to explain this isn't getting through to you, and perhaps I'm having a hard time explaining it. So I'll try to go about this another way.
> 
> ...



None of those characters existed @ that point. Zetsu was also just corpse eating plant guy, not the mastermind behind every bad deed that happened through out the ninja history.

Evidence ? He didn't even know what Susano'o was. And he admitted he never saw Amaterasu before. 

But lets asume you are right for a second. Even then, contextually, @ that point all the characters you mentioned were gone. 
That is the same as Raikage saying "I am the fastest now that minato is dead." Zetsu wasn't accounting in the dead people.

Also you are looking way too much into a hype. From Zetsu's point of view Itachi had a sword that one shot people and a shield that can turn back any attack. On paper, that makes him invincible. But thats just hype Itachi obviously can't beat Kaguya. Seriously, learn to look @ the context and interpret accordingly. Zetsu also said Tsukiyomi is the strongest genjutsu and Amaterasu is the strongest attack.


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## SSMG (Oct 23, 2014)

So i see grimm youre still sticking to faulty logic....

Black zetsus hype for the mirror is worthless. It was shown to be baseless.


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## Blu-ray (Oct 23, 2014)

A shield is going to be more durable than the thing it defends by default. A Ribcage Susano'o tanked a stronger Rasengan variant. This isn't debatable.


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## Dr. White (Oct 23, 2014)

SSMG said:


> So i see grimm youre still sticking to faulty logic....
> 
> Black zetsus hype for the mirror is worthless. It was shown to be baseless.



How was it shown to be baseless? Just because something isn't 100% accurate doesn't mean it's baseless. 

I could say (relatively) that Jon Jones is invincible. Is he in all actuality invincible? No. But the point behind the hype is to demonstrate his general fighting capability in comparison to most.

The hype is even more substantial when someone who knows what they are talking about says it. for example there is a difference between me (average college student) staing JJ is invincible, as opposed to a UFC analyst/commentator. If someone who regularly see's the best of the best fighting, calls someone invincible than the hype is proportional.

Zetsu has seen everyone from Kaguya, the SSOP, and Akatsuki itself. He is a pretty good source for hype. So while Yata has few feats, and it's hype is a walking no limit's fallacy, you can't just argue from that and claim overall it's balls, and dismiss the hype all together.


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## SSMG (Oct 23, 2014)

But itachi died.. from using susanno.. the only thing itachi has been shown to use the SoT and also the mirror(which. is also the only way zetsu seen te items as well.) 

so the effects of susanno overcame itachi with the shield up that was stated to make him completely invincible. since he died with the items up he cant be completely invincble thus the statement zetsu made is rendered moot...aka baseless. 

Now i think itd block the attack in question itt.. but ive seen people (no one itt mind you) use this hype statement to say yatas mirror can block almost everything in the manga.  Thays why i try and discourage people from using this hype.

also for your example even if a ufc commenator states JJ is completely invincible.. that doesnt mean he is. i can hit JJ to the side of a head with a base ball bat and i gauarantee you hell feel the effects.(which is also what you meant) Now if the commenator says JJ is almost invincible in the ring thatd be different and id agree with yo on this more orless,but zetsus statement which was an absolute which was false.


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## SSMG (Oct 23, 2014)

No he stated completely invincible... not only invincible to outside sources...and yet he died.. so its moot. thats the problem with absolute statements , one hickup and you can throw it out.

Your point about zetsu being this great vessel of infomation of strong people was moot since this statement in question he made was incorrect so i didnt need to address that part of your post.


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## Dr. White (Oct 23, 2014)

SSMG said:


> No he stated completely invincible... not only invincible to outside sources...and yet he died.. so its moot. thats the problem with absolute statements , one hickup and you can throw it out.


His description of invincible was being applied to the Offensive potency of totsuka and the defensive potentcy of Yata were an invinsible combonation. Itachi's endurance using them is completely irrelevant has is health has nothing to do with with the offense/defense of Totsuka and Yata respectively.

Someone busting Yata, or totsuka failing to pierce/seal someone would be valid examples of "hiccups" which you have yet to even objectively show.

He was using obvious hyperbole to hype them up on a top tier level. Which only makes sense seeing as lower stage Susano tanked Kirin, and V4 Susano is already a high - top tier defense.



> Your point about zetsu being this great vessel of infomation of strong people was moot since this statement in question he made was incorrect so i didnt need to address that part of your post.


No you just can't interpret the actual meaning behind what he is trying to convey either because of bias, or illiteracy.


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## SSMG (Oct 23, 2014)

The defensive properties of the shield was said to turn back ANY attack.. itachi dies of his illness with yatas mirror up.. so it didnt repel that attack on his immune system/health.  So with have a moot statement being hyped by another moot statement so theres no basis for beleiving in either statement.

This is the problem with absolute statements and why alot of them fall short of thier hype and can be thrown out in debates.

And its funny im just going by the actual meaning of words.. yet im biased or illiterate...right


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## Dr. White (Oct 23, 2014)

SSMG said:


> The defensive properties of the shield was said to turn back ANY attack.. itachi dies of his illness with yatas mirror up.. so it didnt repel that attack on his immune system/health.


Aaaaaaannnd we're done here.





> And its funny im just going by the actual meaning of words.. yet im biased or illiterate...right


Because all literature should be read literally 

Are you like 12?


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## SSMG (Oct 23, 2014)

Concession accepted.

And so what do you purpose? Just make up your own definitions for words to hype up your favourite characters... cuz isnt that something a child would do?


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## Dr. White (Oct 23, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Concession accepted.
> 
> And so what do you purpose? Just make up your own definitions for words to hype up your favourite characters... cuz isnt that something a child would do?



I think you meant propose.

And I propose thinking logically, and taking some literature classes.


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## SSMG (Oct 23, 2014)

Sorry yea but you knew what i meant 

and good i agree once you take one maybe you know what invincible and completely mean.. as well as all attacks.


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