# Base Sasuke vs. Tsunade



## trance (Jul 25, 2013)

Location: Kage Summit 

Intel: Full

Mindset: IC

Distance: 30m

Rules: No summons.


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## ShenLong Kazama (Jul 25, 2013)

Trance said:


> Location: Kage Summit
> 
> Intel: Full
> 
> ...



Do you mean *Base Sasuke = Hebi Sasuke* or *Base Sasuke = Can't do shit*.


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## trance (Jul 25, 2013)

Hebi Sasuke basically.


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## Totsuka Blitz (Jul 25, 2013)

Since Tsunade has Byakuyo, she is kind of immortal. Base Sasuke does not have Susanoo protection. I would have initially given this to Sasuke but Tsunade's recent showing against Madara makes me believe she has better chances of winning this one.


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## Krippy (Jul 25, 2013)

Sasuke is a terrible match up for Tsunade. Not only is he virtually untouchable due to far superior speed and lolSharingan, his Raiton techs can arguable bypass her regen and allow him to get the elusive headshot he needs for victory. Byakugo can make this difficult though.


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## Mithos (Jul 25, 2013)

Tsunade wins.

Hebi Sasuke likes to fight in close quarters with his sword and chidori techniques, and that's where he's the most effective. But that's also where Tsunade excels. Tsunade is more skilled in taijutsu than Sasuke, and she has the speed and reactions keep up with the other Kages against Madara and hold her own against 5 Susano'o clones. 

Not only that, but thanks to Byakugou, Sasuke doesn't have an effective way to kill her. He's not going to be blitzing her, so she can defend herself against his attacks and regenerate from the ones she can't evade completely. This gives her a huge advantage: while Sasuke has to worry about Tsunade's counter-attacks every time he misses or hits her, Tsunade doesn't. Sasuke also can't block her hits, and he must be careful about the giant shockwaves her hits produce, which could knock him off balance or force him to jump into the air where he cannot evade. Sooner or later, one of her attacks are going to connect - most likely after Sasuke slices or stabs her with either his sword or a chidori. 

People need to realize how much of an advantage not having to worry about being hit, having unblockable attacks, and having attacks that can still mess up the enemy even if they miss, is in close combat. Sasuke is faster than her, but since she can react to his attacks and his most powerful attacks will bring him to approach and engage her in CQC, it's not a big factor here.


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## Veracity (Jul 25, 2013)

Yep there it is. I was waiting for the pitiful analysis of : Chidori head shot GG.
And his speed isn't that much superior. 

He can't kill her.


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## Jad (Jul 25, 2013)

Couldn't Chidori blade Katana cut her in half like a hot knife through butter?


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## bleakwinter (Jul 25, 2013)

Jad said:


> Couldn't Chidori blade Katana cut her in half like a hot knife through butter?



Multiple Susanoo blades could've done that as well, but obviously Tsunade was evasive enough to prevent that from happening, as she merely sustained impalements. Deidara who isn't even a close-ranged Taijutsu fighter was able to avoid Sasuke's horizontal slash that presumably would've done what you suggested. He escaped just fine. Unless Tsunade is standing perfectly still, he cannot cleanly bisect her in one swipe.


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## Jad (Jul 25, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> Multiple Susanoo blades could've done that as well, but obviously Tsunade was evasive enough to prevent that from happening, as she merely sustained impalements. Deidara who isn't even a close-ranged Taijutsu fighter was able to avoid Sasuke's horizontal slash that presumably would've done what you suggested. He escaped just fine. Unless Tsunade is standing perfectly still, he cannot cleanly bisect her in one swipe.



Not going to lie, those Sasunoo giants did not look impressive at all. They were slow, they weren't running, and in all honesty they seem to be toying with them if Madara had the consciousnesses decision to not make them use any other techniques besides Sasunoo sword strikes.

My problem with Tsunade is she is a straight forward puncher, that's how she fights. She lunges in and then forces a wide punch that by all intense and purposes can be easily countered if side-stepped. Now look at Sasuke's reptoire, he can with his _3-tomoe Sharingan_, avoid a faster Ei directional attack and land a counter. If Sasuke took the same initiative with Tsunade that he did against Ei, and instead of running _Chidori _through his hand, but a _Raiton induced Katana_, then she gets cut in half. If you want another example of Sasuke completely dodging a faster Tsunade, you only need to look at Killer Bee Hachibi State, in which he jumped over him. You also use Deidara as an example of someone dodging his initial Shunshin assault. Let me remind you that Deidara is in the same speed tier as Sasuke, and two, he even said that he was fast, so he barely made it from that reaction.

You also use the Sasunoo giants as an example of Tsunade beating the odds of being cut in an angle. You have to know, Tsunade has two swords stuck in her body, she even says "This is the only way I can fight" (paraphrasing). Her only way to fight, and frankly what has been listed in many Tsunade threads before, is her way of fighting - taking the attack and then counter-attacking. Had those Sasunoo clones instead of impaling her twice, swung at her with some form of tenacity, well that would get her wouldn't they? Considering they got her twice  by impaling her. So you listing Sasunoo clones as a way to defend Tsunade from being sliced by Sasuke isn't a good one.

tl'tr: Swap Ei for Tsunade, and Chidori for a Raiton Blade.


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## joshhookway (Jul 25, 2013)

Chidori blade gg


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## Rocky (Jul 25, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> Multiple Susanoo blades could've done that as well, but obviously Tsunade was evasive enough to prevent that from happening, as she merely sustained impalements.



Those 4% Susano'o clones are not Sasuke. They are larger and slower than him, and they're more sluggish. Plus, they're clones, and clones are nothing compared to the 100% original. Take feats against them with a grain of salt. 

It's also worth mentioning that a Ration Blade would probably cut easier than those un-amplified Susano'o swords.



> Deidara who isn't even a close-ranged Taijutsu fighter was able to avoid Sasuke's horizontal slash that presumably would've done what you suggested. He escaped just fine. Unless Tsunade is standing perfectly still, he cannot cleanly bisect her in one swipe.



Deidara actually has great reaction feats, like evading Team Gai on foot. As of now, he also has a tier advantage on her in the Databook. His feats are not transferable to Tsunade in any way.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 25, 2013)

Sasuke wins.

Chidori Eisou and chakra-infused katana...

Full knowledge? 
Sasuke will try to evade CQC, utilizing Chidori variants to exhaust Tsunade's regeneration. As soon as she is immobilized, a swift decapitation from his katana would suffice.


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## Veracity (Jul 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Those 4% Susano'o clones are not Sasuke. They are larger and slower than him, and they're more sluggish. Plus, they're clones, and clones are nothing compared to the 100% original. Take feats against them with a grain of salt.
> 
> It's also worth mentioning that a Ration Blade would probably cut easier than those un-amplified Susano'o swords.
> 
> ...



If the databooks were before the war then why should they be brought up? How many battles was Tsunade in before that? Had she not gained a plethora of new speed feats?


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## bleakwinter (Jul 26, 2013)

Jad said:


> Not going to lie, those Sasunoo giants did not look impressive at all. They were slow, they weren't running, and in all honesty they seem to be toying with them if Madara had the consciousnesses decision to not make them use any other techniques besides Sasunoo sword strikes.



At least in the CQC department, they are far more impressive than base Sasuke by feats. Placing things into perspective, the Susanoo clones were even pressuring Ei and nearly even killed him. As I'm sure you would agree, Ei is someone who is capable of demolishing base Sasuke (He even nearly defeated MS Sasuke actually). Additionally, the Susanoo clones were able to land a hit on Gaara. Keeping that in mind, I don't see how you could possibly claim that base Sasuke is more impressive than the Susanoo clones. They had more numbers, paralytic Genjutsu, and a near-unbreakable shield around them. That's significantly better than base Sasuke's repertoire. 



> My problem with Tsunade is she is a straight forward puncher, that's how she fights. She lunges in and then forces a wide punch that by all intense and purposes can be easily countered if side-stepped. Now look at Sasuke's reptoire, he can with his _3-tomoe Sharingan_, avoid a faster Ei directional attack and land a counter.





> If Sasuke took the same initiative with Tsunade that he did against Ei, and instead of running _Chidori _through his hand, but a _Raiton induced Katana_, then she gets cut in half.



That scenario isn't comparable to the one in this thread, simply because Ei allowed Sasuke to hit him with Chidori under the premise that a piercing attack couldn't possibly penetrate his armor. Ei similarly allowed Sasuke to strike him with the Chidori blade (1). Speed was not the reason why Sasuke was able to strike Ei in that case, so of course it's a poor parallel to illustrate why Sasuke's speed will allow him to bisect Tsunade (When obviously, she'll attempt dodging it instead of tanking it since she has full knowledge). Even if Tsunade dodges slightly, she can avoid complete bisection. In that case, Byakugo would simply heal the long slash wound. 



> Let me remind you that Deidara is in the same speed tier as Sasuke, and two, he even said that he was fast, so he barely made it from that reaction.



My the point is that Deidara would crumble in a straight Taijutsu match with Sasuke while Tsunade wouldn't, and that's what matters. Deidara might''ve been able to escape Sasuke with his speed (Which granted, is somewhat impressive), but it should be explicitly obvious that being a long-ranged fighter, Deidara's close-ranged combat abilities are not on par with Tsunade's. Personally, I feel as if Tsunade leaping in the way of and deflecting Madara's fireballs that even Ei wasn't able to, is a justifiable means of claiming she has enough reaction feats to avoid a sword slash that she'll be expecting (Especially when even someone like Sai can run up to base Sasuke and intercept his sword strike (2). Additionally, Tsunade can also bust right through Sasuke's blade if she punches the broad side, similar to how to broke through Madara's much harder Susanoo blade (3)



> You also use the Sasunoo giants as an example of Tsunade beating the odds of being cut in an angle. You have to know, Tsunade has two swords stuck in her body, she even says "This is the only way I can fight" (paraphrasing). Her only way to fight, and frankly what has been listed in many Tsunade threads before, is her way of fighting - taking the attack and then counter-attacking. Had those Sasunoo clones instead of impaling her twice, swung at her with some form of tenacity, well that would get her wouldn't they? Considering they got her twice  by impaling her. So you listing Sasunoo clones as a way to defend Tsunade from being sliced by Sasuke isn't a good one.



During that same panel you mentioned, Ei noted over the course of the battle that Tsunade's fighting style had gotten sloppy (Because she was getting struck so many times), which is why she was pigeon-holed into simply tanking and counter attacking. Tsunade is starting the battle at full capacity here and has full knowledge on Sasuke, so she isn't going fight in the way you mentioned. Anywho, those Susanoo clones were using slicing attacks on all of the Kage (4). They just simply hadn't been successful at actually succeeding and bisecting anyone, understandably of course. If Tsunade is able to move even an inch away from Sasuke's slash, she can avoid complete bisection.


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## Bonly (Jul 26, 2013)

Full knowledge? Sasuke's Sharingan allows him to dodge her attacks and cut through her like butter while making sure not to get hit as well as alone him to put Tsunade in a genjutsu which can create an opening. Add in Kirin with his movement speed, reflexes, Sharingan, genjutsu, and Ration should have Sasuke winning more times then not.


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## LostSelf (Jul 26, 2013)

Full knowledge grants Sasuke a much bigger advantage. His sharingan allowed him to dodge V1 Ei's linear strike, who is faster than Tsunade, who as well only has shown linear punches and kicks. Not the best choice against Sharingan precog and a guy with an a raiton Katana, faster and with more taijutsu finesse. Tsunade cannot dodge while she attack. And Sasuke only needs to dodge her linear punch in order to cause severe damage.

I don't know how the Susano'o clones area good example of showing Tsunade's prowess. It's shown how they defeated her and could've assaulted her to death if they desired. And since clones doesn't regenerate, the damage she did to them was meaningless, not able to bypass their defenses.

I give it to Sasuke more times than not. No summon and full knowledge gives him more advantage. Tsunade also will have to fight being careful of getting caught in genjutsu, wich will hinder her much more, still.


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## Mithos (Jul 26, 2013)

Jad said:


> My problem with Tsunade is she is a straight forward puncher, that's how she fights. She lunges in and then forces a wide punch that by all intense and purposes can be easily countered if side-stepped. Now look at Sasuke's reptoire, he can with his _3-tomoe Sharingan_, avoid a faster Ei directional attack and land a counter. If Sasuke took the same initiative with Tsunade that he did against Ei, and instead of running _Chidori _through his hand, but a _Raiton induced Katana_, then she gets cut in half. If you want another example of Sasuke completely dodging a faster Tsunade, you only need to look at Killer Bee Hachibi State, in which he jumped over him. You also use Deidara as an example of someone dodging his initial Shunshin assault. Let me remind you that Deidara is in the same speed tier as Sasuke, and two, he even said that he was fast, so he barely made it from that reaction.



Tsunade is not a "straight forward puncher" though. She is a taijutsu expert, which is demonstrated through her 5 in the DB and her feats. 

Her style is based on counter-attacking. She is capable of evading an enemy's attack and immediately counter-attacking [1]. She also has known great skill in attacking when in weird positions - for example pushing off the ground and lauching a kick at Kabuto's head when he was behind her [2]. She has shown to also counter an opponent's attack as it lands, to trade blows [3]. This is perhaps the most important one; she can afford to throw herself into Sasuke's attack or allow him to hit her so she can grab or punch him before he can dodge - despite what people on this forum think, momentum does exist and ninja who are faster can't always move or dodge in time because of it. 

Though her feats in CQC are few because lack of on-panel battle time, they show a more advanced and skilled style than most other CQC fighters.   

I think this misconception comes from Sakura; many seem to contribute Sakura's lack of fighting finesse to Tsunade since they share powerful chakra-enhanced punches. Not only is this unfair, it's inaccurate. Not only does Tsunade fight with more finesse and purpose behind her attacks, she is proficient fighting with her feet as well: [4] [5] [6]

I also don't know why people continue to think that Sasuke's speed and Sharingan precognition enable him to avoid being hit in CQC against high level fighters. He came at Danzou, but Danzou was able to react and grab his throat [7]. If Danzou can react to Sasuke and counter-attack his charge without Izanagi, I have a very hard time believing Tsunade cannot land a hit on him. 

Have people also forgotten this? Sure Sasuke used his Sharingan to dodge the Raikage's attack, like he could do against Tsunade. But when he actually hits her, why can't she grab or punch him like the Raikage did? Byakugou allows her to take pretty much any damage he can deal and fight as if she were uninjured. 

Sure I suppose Sasuke could aim to cut her in half. But that's still incredibly risky because she grab and punch him as she's being sliced in half and then regenerate or piece herself back together. She'll be fine, but Sasuke will be dead. 

Raikage managed to hit him without using his speed; Danzou managed to hit him without using Izanagi - yet Tsunade can't touch him? I'm not buying it. Speed is vastly overrated in CQC; the manga has shown us many times that having superior speed and reactions does not guarantee one will not be hit in CQC.


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## Stermor (Jul 26, 2013)

lol orochimaru couldn't cut her in half.. madara had mutliple susanoo clones trying didn't work.. in the end he used a large mokuton to break her in half.. 

madara beeing again massivly faster, more powerful, more skilled then sasuke.. 

i'm really failing to see why sasuke would somehow have more luck when people superior already failed.. 

and well we have already seen tsunade reacting to somebody faster then sasuke and hitting.. 

so i don't really see why sasuke would now somehow dogde.. 

end result is pretty good tsunade has the required feats against superior opponents to sasuke.. 

so tsunade should win this..


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## ThePoetessandThePunk (Jul 26, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> Sasuke will try to evade CQC, utilizing Chidori variants to exhaust Tsunade's regeneration. As soon as she is immobilized, a swift decapitation from his katana would suffice.



haha you think Sasuke could exhaust her regeneration? She managed to keep an entire village healed and her recent battle showed just how much chakra she has to throw around. In a battle of attrition, it's clear she's definitely coming out very far on top. 

Also, full knowledge is kind of a hindrance for Sasuke as well. Good luck landing a genjutsu or using the sharingan to it's fullest potential. She's not going to be surprised by any chidori variants and when has Sasuke ever proved to be a particularly intelligent fighter?


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## Shinryu (Jul 26, 2013)

Amaterasu is the only way Sasuke could kill Tsunade due to Byakogo.Since he has no MS then Tsunade low difficulty.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 26, 2013)

Base Sasuke wins

 hes the better combatant by feats & his eyes give him the undisputed advantage. Tsunades  frank mortality is easily quashed by his particular skillset/jutsu. 
Sasukes offense & defense r just superior in general to the medics' too.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 26, 2013)

Sasuke drops Kirin on her. He has full knowledge so he knows about her regen and launches Katons at the start of the battle. After that he can keep her at range with Raiton-variants and superior speed. Waiting for storm clouds to form. Tsunade can't counter Kirin, even with full knowledge.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 26, 2013)

ThePoetessandThePunk said:


> haha you think Sasuke could exhaust her regeneration? She managed to keep an entire village healed and her recent battle showed just how much chakra she has to throw around. In a battle of attrition, it's clear she's definitely coming out very far on top.
> 
> Also, full knowledge is kind of a hindrance for Sasuke as well. Good luck landing a genjutsu or using the sharingan to it's fullest potential. She's not going to be surprised by any chidori variants and when has Sasuke ever proved to be a particularly intelligent fighter?



If he were to sever limbs and hit vital spots, Tsunade would be forced to dump vast amounts of energy into continuous regeneration.

Even then, Sasuke can bisect her via Chidori Eisou - a technique that is capable of slicing through the Hachibi's tentacle, mind you - and an immobile target is defenseless against his revered Shunshin.


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## Shinryu (Jul 26, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Sasuke drops Kirin on her. He has full knowledge so he knows about her regen and launches Katons at the start of the battle. After that he can keep her at range with Raiton-variants and superior speed. Waiting for storm clouds to form. Tsunade can't counter Kirin, even with full knowledge.



Sauce wont have the time to even prep for Kirin since Tsunade would kill him before he could even use it.If she punches him once he cant move anymore.She could easily dodge those chidori variants.Did I mention Tsunade could mess up his nervous system as well.


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## Stermor (Jul 26, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> If he were to sever limbs and hit vital spots, Tsunade would be forced to dump vast amounts of energy into continuous regeneration.
> 
> Even then, Sasuke can bisect her via Chidori Eisou - a technique that is capable of slicing through the Hachibi's tentacle, mind you - and an immobile target is defenseless against his revered Shunshin.



if madara couldn't do it with susanoo thinking sasuke can is just idiocy... 

madara is faster, better equiped (susanoo versus chidori sword), have the advantage of numbers, and more skill.. 

i really don't understand why people think sasuke could do it when madara failed.. 

if anything the question is how long sasuke can outrun tsunade before she touches him..


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## tanman (Jul 26, 2013)

It's pretty absurd to say that Base Sasuke couldn't kill Tsunade at all. Of people on their level, he's one of the most equipped to kill her. We've already seen that Chidori Eiso cuts like a laser, and I'm seriously doubting that Tsunade's going to grow a new pair of legs. 

With that said, she's well enough equipped to avoid these attacks with full knowledge. But it's important to note that he'll be avoiding her as much as she'll be avoiding him due to his chidori enhanced blades. This isn't usually the case in Tsunade's fights, and it's severely to her disadvantage. Of course, it possible that she'll go for a suicide attack. If that were to occur, Sasuke would likely die, while she would die _long_ after him. Which is as good a win as any, I guess. If that doesn't happen, it's likely Sasuke's win since he's better at a distance.

If you're giving him CS2, then he certainly takes it. He now gains the capacity to get back up after she goes for a suicide shot. Personally, I think Base Sasuke and Nartuo are horribly underestimated on this forum. They really are comparable to the sennin in base at this point.


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## trance (Jul 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Those 4% Susano'o clones are not Sasuke. They are larger and slower than him, and they're more sluggish. Plus, they're clones, and clones are nothing compared to the 100% original. Take feats against them with a grain of salt.



Don't you remember that Edo Tensei zombies has infinite chakra? so infinity divided by 25 is still infinity.


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## Rocky (Jul 26, 2013)

Trance said:


> Don't you remember that Edo Tensei zombies has infinite chakra? so infinity divided by 25 is still infinity.



He has limitless. Not infinite.

Edo Muu couldn't use Jinton while split in half, Madara was destroying Hashirama's clones while sitting down, etc.


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## trance (Jul 26, 2013)

Limitless and infinite are synonyms of each other but I forgot about those examples, so nevermind then...


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## Shinryu (Jul 26, 2013)

Sharingan precognition nullifies any chance of Tsunade hitting him.


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## LostSelf (Jul 26, 2013)

Stermor said:


> if madara couldn't do it with susanoo thinking sasuke can is just idiocy...
> 
> madara is faster, better equiped (susanoo versus chidori sword), have the advantage of numbers, and more skill..
> 
> ...



Are you claiming that Madara can't cut Tsunade in half even if he desired?


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## God of Kingz (Jul 27, 2013)

Sasuke with full knowledge can easily stall Tsunade and set Kirin as a finisher.


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## ThePoetessandThePunk (Jul 27, 2013)

Tsunade with full knowledge isn't going to let that happen.


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## ueharakk (Jul 27, 2013)

Punches the ground, sends sasuke flying, punches sasuke. 

Rinse and repeat.

Also, what indicated that the susanoos the kages were up against were any different than the originals of the same size?


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## Ninja Art (Jul 27, 2013)

Sasuke's Shunshin No Jutsu(Body Flicker Technique) is just too fast for Tsunade to even do anything against Sasuke....there is nothing stop Sasuke from speedbizlting her and cutting her.


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## Rocky (Jul 27, 2013)

Trance said:


> Limitless and infinite are synonyms of each other but I forgot about those examples, so nevermind then...



Limitless as in there's no limit to the Chakra he can spend, but the amount he can spend at once is not infinite...yeah I should've worded it better.


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## Bonly (Jul 27, 2013)

Trance said:


> Limitless and infinite are synonyms of each other but I forgot about those examples, so nevermind then...



Limitless as in there's no limit to the Chakra he can spend, but the amount he can spend at once is not infinite...yeah I should've worded it better.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 28, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Limitless as in there's no limit to the Chakra he can spend, but the amount he can spend at once is not infinite...yeah I should've worded it better.





Bonly said:


> Limitless as in there's no limit to the Chakra he can spend, but the amount he can spend at once is not infinite...yeah I should've worded it better.


That's odd. And one minute of each other with the same sig/avatar.


Anyway, not so sure. Only a tier difference in speed so that's nothing. Tsunade has a huge advantage in taijutsu skill but Sasuke helps cover that with sharingan and raiton variants. One hit ends it for him so he has to keep it mid-long range and only go in for CQC if he can for sure end it. Chidori eisou can be avoided as can katons which can also be knocked away. Shurikens and things like that can be smashed away. Byakugou can allow her to get hit by anything he throws at her. She can break his sword. She can even take a chidori or something then grab his arm and punch his head off. Because of Sasuke's lack of bunshins and his desire to be very hands on with his opponents will cause him to definitely get hit eventually. Especially before byakugou runs out. Tsunade with extreme difficulty.


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## Kai (Jul 28, 2013)

Ninja Art said:


> Sasuke's Shunshin No Jutsu(Body Flicker Technique) is just too fast for Tsunade to even do anything against Sasuke....there is nothing stop Sasuke from speedbizlting her and cutting her.


I agree. Then nothing stops Tsunade immediately afterward from grabbing a hold of Sasuke like A did, and pulverizing him with far more physical force than Raikage.

Kirin would be catastrophic but I do not believe it would get that far in a more close quarters fight.


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## αce (Jul 28, 2013)

Err...Sasuke has full knowledge. I really doubt he's going to run into Tsunade like that knowing how hard and durable her body is. His best bet here is to go for a Kirin or use genjutsu so he has enough time to actually get close.


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## Lawrence777 (Jul 28, 2013)

I think Tsunade's shown she is faster now than previously.

Tsunade doesn't have to hit sasuke directly to win the fight. She can just scramble him with a glance using that technique she used against Kabuto.

She'll dodge or swat mid ranged attacks and cqc is suicide with byakugo. Her punches are atleast Byakugo Sakura level+.  Not to mention if she really needed she could summon katsuya, have her split, and have 24/7 surveillance of where sasuke is and will be. 

Sasuke'll either become exhausted or get his movements scrambled by a glancing blow if Tsuande figures a direct attack is too difficult or impractical.

Sasuke's only option is Kirin and aside from that its not even close honestly.


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## Stermor (Jul 29, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Are you claiming that Madara can't cut Tsunade in half even if he desired?



nope.. i'm claiming it took madara a shit load of trouble.. 

with the idee if a madara somebody who is well beyond sasuke in everything has to apply any effort.. 

that sasuke is not capable of the same feat.. 

anyway tsunade has the required feats to hit sasuke.. and the durability/regen/skill to survive it so tsunade wins..


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## LostSelf (Jul 29, 2013)

Stermor said:


> nope.. i'm claiming it took madara a shit load of trouble..
> 
> with the idee if a madara somebody who is well beyond sasuke in everything has to apply any effort..
> 
> ...



How do you know Madara actually tried to cut her in half? Madara was playing around with them the entire time. And the only thing he tried with her was stabbing her, and he susceeded easily. The Susano'o clones had Tsunade at their mercy to kill her without much troubles and they didn't.

Comparing her performance of the 5 Susano'os is not good. She was defeated by them and didn't even damaged the clones just like she broke Madara's Susano'o. She's not equal to the 5 Susano'os either, just like Sasuke isn't. But Sasuke has the means to cut her down in half if he moves right.


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## Raiken (Jul 29, 2013)

Is this basically Current Sasuke with EMS and Summonings Restricted?


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## Stermor (Jul 29, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> How do you know Madara actually tried to cut her in half? Madara was playing around with them the entire time. And the only thing he tried with her was stabbing her, and he susceeded easily. The Susano'o clones had Tsunade at their mercy to kill her without much troubles and they didn't.
> 
> Comparing her performance of the 5 Susano'os is not good. She was defeated by them and didn't even damaged the clones just like she broke Madara's Susano'o. She's not equal to the 5 Susano'os either, just like Sasuke isn't. But Sasuke has the means to cut her down in half if he moves right.



oke so you agree sasuke is not equal to 5 susanoo.. and you know 5 susanoo's failed to cut tsunade.. this is the reason why i don't see sasuke getting it either.. 

and while madara could follow it up and become serious and beat tsunade.. sasuke is not capable of that.. couple that with madara beeing able to survive hits from tsunade(with susanoo) sasuke cannot.. 

tsunade btw still managed to grab the susanoo's...


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## LostSelf (Jul 29, 2013)

Stermor said:


> oke so you agree sasuke is not equal to 5 susanoo.. and you know 5 susanoo's failed to cut tsunade.. this is the reason why i don't see sasuke getting it either..
> 
> and while madara could follow it up and become serious and beat tsunade.. sasuke is not capable of that.. couple that with madara beeing able to survive hits from tsunade(with susanoo) sasuke cannot..
> 
> tsunade btw still managed to grab the susanoo's...



We don't know if the Susano'os actually tried to cut her in half to say they failed. But they were hitting her with no problem.

Tsunade managed to grab the Susano'os, but bear in mind that Sasuke avoided faster oponents with linear attacks, just like she attacks. And Sasuke's raiton enhanced blade would be more than enough to cut her in half if she misses a linear punch like Ei missed his.


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## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 29, 2013)

Hebi Sasuke > Deidara > Gaara > Tsunade


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## Veracity (Jul 29, 2013)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> Hebi Sasuke > Deidara > Gaara > Tsunade



No. Hebi Sasuke< Current Gaara.


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## Hiko Seijurou (Jul 29, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> No. Hebi Sasuke< Current Gaara.


Current Gaara < Ichibi Gaara


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## Mithos (Jul 30, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> We don't know if the Susano'os actually tried to cut her in half to say they failed. But they were hitting her with no problem.
> 
> Tsunade managed to grab the Susano'os, but bear in mind that Sasuke avoided faster oponents with linear attacks, just like she attacks. And Sasuke's raiton enhanced blade would be more than enough to cut her in half if she misses a linear punch like Ei missed his.



You're not giving Tsunade enough credit. She's one of the manga's most skilled taijutsu fighters (5 in the DB) who can survive pratically anything and counter-attack.

And regarding the Susano'o clones, I'd argue she was doing the second best, only worse than Oonoki. She may have been taking hits but she was smacking them around, while Mei and Gaara were getting overwhelemed and Ei didn't seem to be doing much damage.  

Sasuke cannot hope to enter CQC and never get hit, without Susano'o to protect him.


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## Veracity (Jul 30, 2013)

Hiko Seijurou said:


> Current Gaara < Ichibi Gaara



How so? Seems like current Gaara managed to Tango with MS Sasuke, defeat his father instantly, and is squaring of against the 3rd strongest character in the manga. 

What did Ichibi Gaara do?


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## LostSelf (Jul 30, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> You're not giving Tsunade enough credit. She's one of the manga's most skilled taijutsu fighters (5 in the DB) who can survive pratically anything and counter-attack.



She cannot survive practically anything. Yes, she's skilled, but she just has shown the same linear punches Ei has shown. Only with less speed.



> And regarding the Susano'o clones, I'd argue she was doing the second best, only worse than Oonoki. She may have been taking hits but she was smacking them around, while Mei and Gaara were getting overwhelemed and Ei didn't seem to be doing much damage.



Or third best. Ei was blocking the Susano'o attacks and only was tagged because Tsunade collapsed and he looked at her.

Tsunade didn't do any damage to the Susano'os either. But they defeated her.



> Sasuke cannot hope to enter CQC and never get hit, without Susano'o to protect him.



Just like he can't hope that with Ei. The Issue is that if they both rushes to attack, and Tsunade launches a punch, Sharingan precog and superior speed will allow Sasuke to easily dodge, and since Tsunade cannot dodge at the same time she's attacking, a missing punch like that can get her cut in half.

Raiton enhancements can easily cut her down.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 30, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> She cannot survive practically anything. Yes, she's skilled, but she just has shown the same linear punches Ei has shown. Only with less speed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At least give her credit. And more strength. And surviving practically anything seems extremely adequate. She has been cut in half, had magatamas to the face, survived Chou Shinra Tensei while healing the whole village, survived being ripped apart at light speed, had a diamond cutting stab her and slash her up, and multiple Susano blades piercing her. That's practically anything. Maybe not a jinton or an amaterasu but those are two of the strongest attacks in the manga. I'd say she has shown enough. But at this point, it's semantics.

More or less tied for second best. A got distracted and got caught. Tsunade never got distracted but also seemingly didn't get caught. But idk why this is part of the discussion anyway ha.

She was defeated by the Susanos? Didn't she just fall to the ground a cough up a little blood? Do I have to show scans of people coughing blood and still having A LOOOOTT of gas left in the tank? I could be missing something but that's all. But again this seems to be off topic.

Tsunade is not getting effortlessly cut in half by Sasuke. The tier gap in speed is 1 tier. And since she has been timing attacks with the Yondaime Raikage with incredible feats of speed being able to jump up to Madara and smash him down of course she can react to avoid/block Sasuke's attacks. Sounds ridiculous that Ms. Hokage is just so pathetic that she runs in and gets ripped in half.


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## LostSelf (Jul 30, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> At least give her credit. And more strength. And surviving practically anything seems extremely adequate. She has been cut in half, had magatamas to the face, survived Chou Shinra Tensei while healing the whole village, survived being ripped apart at light speed, had a diamond cutting stab her and slash her up, and multiple Susano blades piercing her. That's practically anything. Maybe not a jinton or an amaterasu but those are two of the strongest attacks in the manga. I'd say she has shown enough. But at this point, it's semantics.



Of course she has credit. Also, CST didn't hti her directly. Unless we assume that some ANBU fodder has the same durability as her. [Fodder coming like nothing]



> More or less tied for second best. A got distracted and got caught. Tsunade never got distracted but also seemingly didn't get caught. But idk why this is part of the discussion anyway ha.



She got pierced through her body, twice. That's worse than being caught because of a distraction, though. However, Ei managed this because of his speed and RnY.



> She was defeated by the Susanos? Didn't she just fall to the ground a cough up a little blood? Do I have to show scans of people coughing blood and still having A LOOOOTT of gas left in the tank? I could be missing something but that's all. But again this seems to be off topic.



No, she didn't just fall to the ground coughing little blood. She collapsed because of the damage the Susano'os did to her [1]. And was having troubles just to stand up [2].

Why they defeated her? They could've killed right where she was. The five of them were looking at her doing nothing, instead of stabbing her again just like they were about to do to Ei [3]

So yeah, she was defeated.



> Tsunade is not getting effortlessly cut in half by Sasuke. The tier gap in speed is 1 tier. And since she has been timing attacks with the Yondaime Raikage with incredible feats of speed being able to jump up to Madara and smash him down of course she can react to avoid/block Sasuke's attacks. Sounds ridiculous that Ms. Hokage is just so pathetic that she runs in and gets ripped in half.



Timing attacks  is nothing, Kakashi did that with Gated Gai, and it's more than clear that Gated Gai is very well above Kakashi in speed and in striking speed. Just because she is hokage doesn't mean she won't get defeated by that. Mister () Raikage, the leader of the aliance, suffered for the same thing i am claiming that Sasuke *could* do to her if they clash.

If both do this [1][2] then you can be more than sure that Tsunade will be cut in half (If he uses his sword). it needs much more skill, reflexes and speed to do that to Ei than doing it to Tsunade, who has not shown nothing diferent from linear punches rushing mindlessly against her opponent.

And Raiton has more than enough cutting power to cut her in half without much troubles.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 30, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Of course she has credit. Also, CST didn't hti her directly. Unless we assume that some ANBU fodder has the same durability as her. [Fodder coming like nothing]
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She was in the village, was hit, was healing the whole village, and was out of chakra. Yet survived and ran all the way to Pain. Apparently personal ANBU guards to the Hokage are a big deal according to Minato. The ANBU was seemingly the only one other than Tsunade that took the attack head on. Except he didn't have to heal the whole village while he was hit. That was literally like 1 of ten thing though so it's kind of pointless. You get the point. Practically anything is adequate for Tsunade.

Tsunade and A have different fighting styles. A has his speed to avoid attacks while Tsunade does not have to because she can heal. Tsunade got pierced with swords yet was still alive and kicking. A got hit with a genjutsu was about to get murked but Oonoki saved him. A's position is WAAAY worse because he was going to be killed but Tsunade wasn't. Which position is worse? Swords through you when you can heal from the damage, or on the ground in a genjutsu about to be killed with swords you CAN'T heal from?

She is on her knees. Again do you want scans of people coughing up blood and on their knees for a moment?

Dude that is so much bullshit and you know it. You are completely guessing what would have happened to suit your argument. It is a STILL picture. You think because people stand still in a fight for one second during a fight that all of a sudden they could have just raped the opponent in that one second? What if they were tired from Susano usage and took a second to regroup? Or they are thinking of their next strategy? Or what if they did attack and Tsuande would have dodged it? Or what if she would have tanked it and healed like she has from the rest of the attacks? To say she was defeated cause she crouched down for a second is ridiculous.

She caught up to Yondaime Raikage mid karate chop and kicked. He was already attacking him when she ran in and kicked at the same time. That isn't A slowing down. That's Tsunade being fast. And it is kind of common sense. So A in a battle for the world is going to slow down his karate chop to a fraction of its speed because MAYBE Tsunade will come in and kick? Lawl that makes sense. Don't recall Kakashi and Gai ever doing that though. Raikage was never cut in half by Sasuke. Idk what you are talking about. 

Interesting that Tsunade can take Susano swords from Madara Uchiha and Diamond cutting Kusangi from Orochimaru and not get cut in half but all of a sudden Sasuke can do it effortlessly. That doesn't make any sense. And actually Tsunade would get a chidori in her chest not be ridiculously cut in half. But then she just grabs his arm so he can't move and then punches his head off. Rushing Tsunade

Yet Susano swords and Diamond cutting Kusangi couldn't cut her in half effortlessly. The evidence is against you.


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 30, 2013)

Oh and apparently since people always think I'm mad (lawl) when I post, let me just tell you Iron Man. I ain't mad. Only part that even bothered me was the shit about Tsunade lost because she was crouching shit. Other than that I'm good.


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## LostSelf (Jul 30, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> She was in the village, was hit, was healing the whole village, and was out of chakra. Yet survived and ran all the way to Pain. Apparently personal ANBU guards to the Hokage are a big deal according to Minato. The ANBU was seemingly the only one other than Tsunade that took the attack head on. Except he didn't have to heal the whole village while he was hit. That was literally like 1 of ten thing though so it's kind of pointless. You get the point. Practically anything is adequate for Tsunade.



The attack hit the center of the village, not Tsunade directly. She was hit by the destruction it created. I know Kishi is dumb sometimes, but he won't make a fodder, regardless of Minato's words, survive one of the mighty Rinnegan's strongest jutsu. Especially when 3 gigantic frogs were one shotted by a much weaker version.




> Tsunade and A have different fighting styles. A has his speed to avoid attacks while Tsunade does not have to because she can heal. Tsunade got pierced with swords yet was still alive and kicking. A got hit with a genjutsu was about to get murked but Oonoki saved him. A's position is WAAAY worse because he was going to be killed but Tsunade wasn't. Which position is worse? Swords through you when you can heal from the damage, or on the ground in a genjutsu about to be killed with swords you CAN'T heal from?



Ei was only hit because he was distracted, nothing less. HAd he not been distracted and that would've never happened.



> She is on her knees. Again do you want scans of people coughing up blood and on their knees for a moment?
> 
> Dude that is so much bullshit and you know it. You are completely guessing what would have happened to suit your argument. It is a STILL picture. You think because people stand still in a fight for one second during a fight that all of a sudden they could have just raped the opponent in that one second? What if they were tired from Susano usage and took a second to regroup? Or they are thinking of their next strategy? Or what if they did attack and Tsuande would have dodged it? Or what if she would have tanked it and healed like she has from the rest of the attacks? To say she was defeated cause she crouched down for a second is ridiculous.



... She was not on her knees one second. She was on her knees the moment Ei was caught, Onoki saved him, Ei thanked him, Madara spoke how experienced Onoki is, AAAAND when Onoki made a speech is when she began to stand up with troubles.

One second? Please...



> She caught up to Yondaime Raikage mid karate chop and kicked. He was already attacking him when she ran in and kicked at the same time. That isn't A slowing down. That's Tsunade being fast. And it is kind of common sense. So A in a battle for the world is going to slow down his karate chop to a fraction of its speed because MAYBE Tsunade will come in and kick? Lawl that makes sense. Don't recall Kakashi and Gai ever doing that though. Raikage was never cut in half by Sasuke. Idk what you are talking about.



What instance are you refering to? The instance when they both appeared at the same time because of the teleportation? Or the instance where ONOKI was carrying Ei and not Ei moving? Because both says nothing about her speed compared to Ei, let alone V2.

I cannot look for the scan of Kakashi and Gai now, and it seems you're taking the example to your convenience, only parts of it. Let's debate seriously, i clearly said that if Sasuke USES his sword in a similar scenario, she's cut in half.



> Interesting that Tsunade can take Susano swords from Madara Uchiha and Diamond cutting Kusangi from Orochimaru and not get cut in half but all of a sudden Sasuke can do it effortlessly. That doesn't make any sense. And actually Tsunade would get a chidori in her chest not be ridiculously cut in half. But then she just grabs his arm so he can't move and then punches his head off. Rushing Tsunade
> 
> Yet Susano swords and Diamond cutting Kusangi couldn't cut her in half effortlessly. The evidence is against you.



Of course, you only need to ask for evidence:

Ei was able to cut his own arm because of the Raiton enhancing his hand [1], and Ei is muuuuuch more durable than her. Even without the shroud.

And i don't think Sasuke would be so dumb as to use a Chidori in her heart with full knowledge just to give her a victory.

Edit: I know you well, and i know you're not mad .


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## Rosencrantz (Jul 30, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> The attack hit the center of the village, not Tsunade directly. She was hit by the destruction it created. I know Kishi is dumb sometimes, but he won't make a fodder, regardless of Minato's words, survive one of the mighty Rinnegan's strongest jutsu. Especially when 3 gigantic frogs were one shotted by a much weaker version.
> 
> Ei was only hit because he was distracted, nothing less. HAd he not been distracted and that would've never happened.
> 
> ...


Honestly, it doesn't matter in the context of this thread. Just gonna leave it alone. You get the point however which is all that matters.

Indeed he was distracted. I agree. And he almost got killed because of it. Tsunade did not get distracted did not get almost killed because of it. Which is why I said if you are ranking their performances then A/Tsunade would be tied for second with Oonoki in first. I'm not going to ignore the distraction.

When I said a second I literally just meant a small amount of time. Not necessarily literally one second. My fault for the confusion. But just know I mean a small amount of time. I.E. a small amount of time for the Susanos to regroup, a small amount of time for them to think of their next strategy, a small amount of time for Tsunade to crouch down, etc, etc. The point is that crouching for a brief amount of time is not the same as losing a battle. Especially when we don't know if she would just tank the next attack, dodge it, block it, etc. So saying we know she was defeated is extremely premature cause you have no idea what would have happened next.

Nah not teleporting. I was talking about when Oonoki was flying A up to Madara. Specifically that she caught up to Oonoki's flying speed and that she kicked as fast as A was punching. It compares her attack speed to A and her movement speed to Oonoki's flight. Not really ridiculous considering Suigetsu and Juugo blocked V1 A's attacks. Of course she has nothing on V2.

Sasuke stabbed with chidori. A similar scenario would be stabbing with his chidori sword. Which results in his arm getting grabbed and getting wrecked. After her dealings with multiple Susano swords and Kusangi I doubt he slashes her in half. Basically swords of similar power didn't so I doubt chidori sword does. It takes a lot more time try and slash somebody in half than it does to stab.

I don't see how this helps. A cut off his arm. This is Sasuke bisecting her entire body. Something Madara couldn't do with Susano swords. How does this help?

Full knowledge helps him realize other swords of similar power couldn't cut her in half. Also it is worth nothing she is significantly more skilled than him. She very well opts to disarm him, hits the flat side of the sword, catches the sword and wrenches it from his grasp, or something else. The gap in speed is only a tier so not big deal, but the taijutsu skill gap is even larger than that.


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## LostSelf (Jul 30, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> Honestly, it doesn't matter in the context of this thread. Just gonna leave it alone. You get the point however which is all that matters.



Fair enough.



> Indeed he was distracted. I agree. And he almost got killed because of it. Tsunade did not get distracted did not get almost killed because of it. Which is why I said if you are ranking their performances then A/Tsunade would be tied for second with Oonoki in first. I'm not going to ignore the distraction.



If we count Ei being worried by his ally, then yeah. But that doens't diminish his ability. And his ability was good enough as to not be hit by the Susano'os, though.



> When I said a second I literally just meant a small amount of time. Not necessarily literally one second. My fault for the confusion. But just know I mean a small amount of time. I.E. a small amount of time for the Susanos to regroup, a small amount of time for them to think of their next strategy, a small amount of time for Tsunade to crouch down, etc, etc. The point is that crouching for a brief amount of time is not the same as losing a battle. Especially when we don't know if she would just tank the next attack, dodge it, block it, etc. So saying we know she was defeated is extremely premature cause you have no idea what would have happened next.



Fair enough, but they were not just regrouping or thinking. In a scan above, they are in front of her, watching her, doing nothing, just like the groups of Susano'os of Gaara and Mei were looking at them. Madara did nothing. But he could have slain the three of them because they were helpless in front of the Susano'os. It's clear, though. She was on her knees, the 5 Susano'os were in front of her even before Onoki helped the Raikage (Wich was before MAdara spoke of his experience) and before Onoki made his speech, And even after that, she's having troubles to stand up.

The Susano'os had much more than enough time to kill her.



> Nah not teleporting. I was talking about when Oonoki was flying A up to Madara. Specifically that she caught up to Oonoki's flying speed and that she kicked as fast as A was punching. It compares her attack speed to A and her movement speed to Oonoki's flight. Not really ridiculous considering Suigetsu and Juugo blocked V1 A's attacks. Of course she has nothing on V2.



I had a long debate with FlaminRain about this. My argument was that Onoki was on the opposite direction and farther than Tsunade when we first saw him and that we don't know the time when he moved to assume their attack, especially when Onoki, being positioned looking at Madara and viceversa, appeared coming from behind a Madara that was being sent flying. Either way, Ei had nothing to do here only than striking, though. But it's a good feat.



> Sasuke stabbed with chidori. A similar scenario would be stabbing with his chidori sword. Which results in his arm getting grabbed and getting wrecked. After her dealings with multiple Susano swords and Kusangi I doubt he slashes her in half. Basically swords of similar power didn't so I doubt chidori sword does. It takes a lot more time try and slash somebody in half than it does to stab.



But the thing is that Sasuke has knowledge about it. And in this position, stabbing her with a Katana would not be good at all. He would have to attempt to stab her long before dodging, and that would give her the chance to grab his sword.

The best thing he could do is dodge her punch and inmediately  slash her.

Susano'o swords are not of similar power than a Raiton enhanced Katana. This drastically increases the sharpness. And we also don't know if the clones tried to cut her in half.



> I don't see how this helps. A cut off his arm. This is Sasuke bisecting her entire body. Something Madara couldn't do with Susano swords. How does this help?



It helps. Ei is more durable than her by much, and even with the shroud, he couldn't prevent Chidori from stabbing him. Tsunade does not only has less durability than Ei in base, she doesn't have a shroud and Sasuke has an element that increases the sharpness to the point of easily cutting Ei's arm. Sasuke also would be using his Katana and not his hand, wich would be still even sharper.



> Full knowledge helps him realize other swords of similar power couldn't cut her in half. Also it is worth nothing she is significantly more skilled than him. She very well opts to disarm him, hits the flat side of the sword, catches the sword and wrenches it from his grasp, or something else. The gap in speed is only a tier so not big deal, but the taijutsu skill gap is even larger than that.



Raiton flowed Katana would cut her, it cut Danzo without much effort without raiton, and he survived a Susano'o punch that sent him flying all over the bridge. Even if the damage he got was divided into his entire body instead of all of it in one place, that's a good feat.

Grabbing Sasuke would be hard as well since he can read her movements. Eithwe way, the point of my argument is that Sasuke can get a clean shot if they both attack at the same time, just like Ei and him did. Not if Sasuke attacks and Tsunade just defends.


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## Jad (Jul 31, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> because like the jackass that you are



Who you calling Jackass?


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## Ghost (Jul 31, 2013)

Tsunade can't even get close due to Chidori Nagashi. Sasuke keeps slicing her till she runs out of chakra.


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## DemonFoxSlayer (Aug 1, 2013)

Sasuke wins with moderate difficulty.


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