# Artist-Duo vs. Zombie-Combo



## Rob (Apr 20, 2014)

Location: Immortals vs. Team 10 
Distance: Start at 25m 
S.O.M.: IC, Intent to Kill

*Scenario 1:* No knowledge for both teams. Will gain through fight. 
*Scenario 2: *Full knowledge for both teams. 

My friend asked me this, and I was unsure. 

My thoughts basically consisted of this, 
-Deidara has height advantage
-Sasori shouldn't be able to hurt Kakuzu at all 
-Sasori has no blood for Hidan to take
-Deidara's bombs could hurt Sasori as well

Seems somewhat even to me. But what the hell do I know? 

Discuss 

Also adding a poll. Vote only after you've read a good amount of posts, so you can form a better opinion.


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## katanalauncher (Apr 20, 2014)

Scenario 1: I don't think neither of zombie bros could get poisoned so knowledge is not that important here.
Only thing would be stuff like c4 and iron sand which could render HIdan useless, not that he is that much of a threat to begin with.
Zombie bro's only weapon against an airborn Deidara is Kakuzu's elemental blast, it's possible they could pick off Deidara early and win the fight, otherwise HIdan gets taken out from a blast or two and Kakuzu eats C4.
Deidara and Sasori wins with high/extreme difficulty most likely, but zombies bros could pull maybe 4 out of 10.
Scenario 2:
Sasori's iron sand could get through Kakuzu's skin and damage his hearts.
Knowledge won't do jack to help Kakuzu and Hidan against C0, which deidara likely won't need to use.
Deidara and Sasori mid/low difficulty.


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## Bonly (Apr 20, 2014)

The artist would likely would and that's mainly due to Hidan being the weak link here. While Kakuzu is a bad match-up for Sasori overall wise, Deidara can make up for that with his arsenal. Deidara has what it takes to get past Kakuzu's Domu and take out Hidan as well so while Sasori may not do to well here, he can at least help Deidara defensive wise for a decent amount of time.


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## iJutsu (Apr 20, 2014)

Hidan and Kakuzu aren't really known for speed. Kazekage puppet alone would turn them into paste.


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## ARGUS (Apr 20, 2014)

Deidara and sasori win both scenarios


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## Dominus (Apr 20, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> -Deidara's bombs could hurt Sasori as well



The bombs won't hurt him if he's on the bird with Deidara.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 20, 2014)

Deidara drops a c3 and calls it a day.


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## richard lewis (Apr 20, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Deidara drops a c3 and calls it a day.



With full knowledge I don't see why kakuzu can't simply deactivate it with his raiton? Deidara's bombs will be for the most part useless. If I recall correctly deidara's dragon isn't all that fast, kakuzu could probably shoot it down with raiton gian. If Hidan is quick enough he may be able to take some of deidara's blood.  I'm 50/50 here, the fight is much closer than you think.


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## Rob (Apr 20, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> The bombs won't hurt him if he's on the bird with Deidara.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Deidara drops a c3 and calls it a day.


So harsh


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## Cognitios (Apr 20, 2014)

IMO deidara's nano bombs end this quite easily, Sasori doesn't breathe them in so he isn't really effected in Hiruko.


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## Rob (Apr 20, 2014)

Couldn't they still go through the cracks of Hiruko? 

Or into his skin, through pores?

Edit: lelSkinSasori

You know what I meant.


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## Cognitios (Apr 20, 2014)

> Couldn't they still go through the cracks of Hiruko?
> 
> Or into his skin, through pores?
> 
> ...


You right, yeah, that is how human puppets work.
But I think the manga said that you breath them in. Also I think Sasori would take any cracks big enough to let something go in out of any puppets.


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## Rob (Apr 20, 2014)

But they are nono-sized. 

There is no way he could get them that tight


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## Cognitios (Apr 20, 2014)

> But they are nono-sized.
> 
> There is no way he could get them that tight


Good point, still he could get Third Kazekage to shield him with Iron Sand, Gaara style.
Or get him up in the air with Deidara.
But worst case scenario they all die but Deidara, so the Artists win by default.


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## Rob (Apr 20, 2014)

What about Kakuzu's Raiton? 

Couldn't he launch it at Karura and disable it?


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## Turrin (Apr 20, 2014)

We need only look at DB Stat Totals to tell who the likely winner here is. 

Sasori: 34.5 > Kakuzu: 32.5
Deidara: 32 > Hidan: 31.5

The gap between Sasori and Kakuzu is decisive enough where it's highly unlikely Sasori would loose to Kakuzu. 
The gape between Deidara and Hidan is less decisive, and maybe Hidan might be able to pull out 1 or 2 wins out of 10, but most of the time Deidara is the odds on favorite to win still

So most likely Sasori and Deidara take this with mid to high difficulty. At worst extremely high difficulty if Kakuzu and Hidan's team-work proves much more effective then theirs.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> We need only look at DB Stat Totals to tell who the likely winner here is.
> 
> Sasori: 34.5 > Kakuzu: 32.5
> Deidara: 32 > Hidan: 31.5



Asuma 32.5 = Kakuzu 32.5
Asuma 32.5 > Hidan 31.5


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> We need only look at DB Stat Totals to tell who the likely winner here is.
> 
> Sasori: 34.5 > Kakuzu: 32.5
> Deidara: 32 > Hidan: 31.5
> ...



There is no such thing as stat totals.


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## Rob (Apr 20, 2014)

I'm not sure the Stats are that reliable, when looking at actual match-ups. 

I can't think of a way for Sasori to beat Kakuzu, or for Hidan to beat either of the Duo, individually.

Edit: Well, I guess Hidan's score is lower than that of both Artists, but you get my point.


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## Bloodblossom (Apr 20, 2014)

Flight+C4=gg.


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## Scarlet Ammo (Apr 20, 2014)

Ever since Deidara and Sasori lost to Sai, I've been having my doubts about their skill.

Nevertheless, they could take down Hidan. The main factor is Kakuzu who is one of the strongest Akatasuki members IMO.

I personally think Kakuzu could solo the two given their behavior in the war arc, but hey I may be wrong.


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## Turrin (Apr 20, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Asuma 32.5 = Kakuzu 32.5
> Asuma 32.5 > Hidan 31.5


And your point is? Asuma, Hidan, and Kakuzu are all around the same general "level", its not surprising that Hidan can pull out a win on Asuma. However I have no issue believing that Asuma is a holistically better Ninja than Hidan.

The picture you posted of Asuma is pointless; of course Kakuzu + Hidan  combined are way stronger than just Asuma. That doesn't say anything about how Asuma stacks up with them individually.



RobLucciRapes said:


> I'm not sure the Stats are that reliable, when looking at actual match-ups.
> 
> I can't think of a way for Sasori to beat Kakuzu, or for Hidan to beat either of the Duo, individually.
> 
> Edit: Well, I guess Hidan's score is lower than that of both Artists, but you get my point.



Stats are more reliable because we don't have to only go off what we can think off. We can go off how the author views these characters. Kishimoto clearly views Sasori as a holistically better ninja than Kakuzu, so Sasori is likely to beat Kakuzu; it's that simple. Deidara and Hidan is a bit more debatable, but Deidara still has a slight edge over him.


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## Bloodblossom (Apr 20, 2014)

Scarlet Ammo said:


> Ever since Deidara and Sasori lost to Sai, I've been having my doubts about their skill.
> 
> Nevertheless, they could take down Hidan. The main factor is Kakuzu who is one of the strongest Akatasuki members IMO.



Sasori had no puppets, and Deidara was essentially fucking around with C1 level bomb until someone with raiton came along.

Heck, Kakuzu was taken down by Tenten . She had the banana fan but she still has shit level chakra. Pretty much every Akatsuki edo was nerfed or embarrassed, except Itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> And your point is? Asuma, Hidan, and Kakuzu are all around the same general "level", its not surprising that Hidan can pull out a win on Asuma. However I have no issue believing that Asuma is a holistically better Ninja than Hidan.
> 
> The picture you posted of Asuma is pointless; of course Kakuzu + Hidan  combined are way stronger than just Asuma. That doesn't say anything about how Asuma stacks up with them individually.



Yes, they are all around the same level. Just make sure Kakuzu doesn't get his hands on a briefcase. 

Do you really believe that ? Seriously. Do you think Asuma could give Kakashi + Chouji + Shikamaru + Ino a tought fight and come close to killing them more than once ? 
Kakashi's stats are visibly superior to Kakuzu's, and he got prison raped by Kakuzu.

Those stats don't represent jutsu arsenal. Ninjutsu refers to "Ninjutsu knowledge and proficiency." It doesn't give you anything about that persons arsenal, or how it stacks up compared to others. Most high level shinobi naturally have tier 5 in ninjutsu as well as in other stats. But their arsenals aren't the same. They differ in quantity, variety and most importantly quality. 

In that sense, your whole stat total comparison thing is meaningless.

Hidan's immortality jutsu is much more advanced than anything Asuma has in his arsenal. Same goes with Kakuzu's arsenal.

Asuma's speed, Taijutsu and genjutsu are superior to Kakuzu on paper. In that specific match up, how does genjutsu superiority come into play ? How does taijutsu superiority come into play when Kakuzu has Domu, and jingou ?


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## Alex Payne (Apr 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> And your point is? Asuma, Hidan, and Kakuzu are all around the same general "level", its not surprising that Hidan can pull out a win on Asuma. However I have no issue believing that Asuma is a holistically better Ninja than Hidan.


 Asuma loses to both of them one on one 10/10. He is not on Kakuzu level and while he is close to Hidan he is still slightly inferior while having superior stats. And Hidan is not on Kakuzu's level either. 



Turrin said:


> The picture you posted of Asuma is pointless; of course Kakuzu + Hidan  combined are way stronger than just Asuma. That doesn't say anything about how Asuma stacks up with them individually.


 He was talking about how Asuma stacks up with them individually. It was made painfully obvious that Asuma was outclassed by either of Akatsuki in that fight. 

How about Naruto's totals compared to Kakashi's? You know, after "you are as strong or maybe stronger than me" statement. 8.5 difference. 

We have stuff that isn't included in stats, we have people with different ratings who by statements/feats are equals, we have 5s being unequal between people. Stop using totals, you are smarter than that.


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## J★J♥ (Apr 20, 2014)

Scarlet Ammo said:


> Ever since Deidara and Sasori lost to Sai, I've been having my doubts about their skill.
> 
> Nevertheless, they could take down Hidan. The main factor is Kakuzu who is one of the strongest Akatasuki members IMO.
> 
> I personally think Kakuzu could solo the two given their behavior in the war arc, but hey I may be wrong.



In same arc Kakuzu got owned by two chuunins and then tenten.


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## Turrin (Apr 20, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Asuma loses to both of them one on one 10/10. He is not on Kakuzu level and while he is close to Hidan he is still slightly inferior while having superior stats. And Hidan is not on Kakuzu's level either.


This author says differently, so i'm going to have to say this is wrong. Your opinion on how these characters stack up is most likely based on their shown arsenals, which is why your coming to the wrong conclusion. This is not to say Kakuzu isn't better than Asuma, because I think he is, but the gap is very small.



alex payne said:


> He was talking about how Asuma stacks up with them individually. It was made painfully obvious that Asuma was outclassed by either of Akatsuki in that fight.


Your interpretation denies the context of what's stated in the chapter. 

Before Kakuzu shows up Asuma is completely calm and states point blank that he was planning to defeat one of the Akatsuki members:

Asuma, "We already know you usually operate in pairs. I was planning to take down one of you first, than capture the other"

Asuma only starts freaking out, like in the panel you posted, after Kakuzu shows up and it's 2 Akatsuki members that he (& his squad) have to deal with at once. 

So no Asuma felt he had a chance to defeat one of the Akatsuki members, he just didn't think he stood a chance against 2 Akatsuki members.



> How about Naruto's totals compared to Kakashi's? You know, after "you are as strong or maybe stronger than me" statement. 8.5 difference.


Okay and your point is what? When Kakashi says Naruto is stronger, he is obviously including everything in his assessment; Summons & Kyuubi-Chakra as well. Naruto's DB stats do not include KN or the individual abilities of Summons. 



> We have stuff that isn't included in stats,


Course we do. But have Kakuzu, Sasori, Deidara, or Hidan been indicated to have something, that is not covered by the stats? None of them are summoners and none of them have some power up that greatly increases their base-abilities. For most shinobi the stats are a good indicator.



> we have people with different ratings who by statements/feats are equals


If your argument is that people who are by "feats" equal. That is no argument at all, as all your saying at that point is the author hasn't yet shown why one character is superior.

As for statements. What statements are you referring to.



> , we have 5s being unequal between people


I'm not looking at individual stats, but the total, which the author quite clearly designed to give readers a general sense of the characters "power-levels".


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## Rob (Apr 20, 2014)

@Turrin

How did the author say differently? Asuma was shown to be inferior to both of them... 

Why would stats matter here? Isn't it all about match-ups? 

For example, say Deidara was noticeably above Ay, in terms of the verse... 
Would that mean that he can beat his natural counter?


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## Turrin (Apr 20, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Do you really believe that ? Seriously. Do you think Asuma could give Kakashi + Chouji + Shikamaru + Ino a tought fight and come close to killing them more than once ?
> Kakashi's stats are visibly superior to Kakuzu's, and he got prison raped by Kakuzu.


First off I think Kakuzu is stronger than Asuma, it just that Asuma should be around his level. 

If Asuma had Hidan's help, yes I think he'd give them a tough fight. Ino/Choji were more of a hinderance to Kakashi than a help. Shikkamaru had to deal with Hidan. So basically were talking a battle where Kakashi has to fight Asuma while at the same time protecting Ino/Choji. Yes he'd have difficulty.



> Those stats don't represent jutsu arsenal. Ninjutsu refers to "Ninjutsu knowledge and proficiency." It doesn't give you anything about that persons arsenal, or how it stacks up compared to others. Most high level shinobi naturally have tier 5 in ninjutsu as well as in other stats. But their arsenals aren't the same. They differ in quantity, variety and most importantly quality.
> 
> In that sense, your whole stat total comparison thing is meaningless.
> 
> ...


Like I told alex any time that you start saying shit like oh, but shown aresenals don't reflect such and such; your not making a good case for the stats being wrong, your making a good case, for your feat-centrict argument being flawed reasoning. 



RobLucciRapes said:


> @Turrin
> 
> How did the author say differently? Asuma was shown to be inferior to both of them...
> 
> ...


By giving Asuma a stat total that would place him around Hidan/Kakuzu's "level".


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## Rocky (Apr 20, 2014)

Guys guys, it's cool. Part 1 Kakashi (34.5) is totally stronger than fresh Kakuzu (32.5). Preskip Kabuto (32) is completely on par with Deidara (32) too. Oh, and both are stronger than Gai.

#stattotalsdontlie


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> First off I think Kakuzu is stronger than Asuma, it just that Asuma should be around his level.


No he isn't. 

Kakuzu is fuckloads stronger than Asuma. 



> If Asuma had Hidan's help, yes I think he'd give them a tough fight. Ino/Choji were more of a hinderance to Kakashi than a help. Shikkamaru had to deal with Hidan. So basically were talking a battle where Kakashi has to fight Asuma while at the same time protecting Ino/Choji. Yes he'd have difficulty.


Dude what are you saying ? Kakashi alone wouldn't have trouble against Asuma... 
Kakashi is clearly stronger than Asuma in every regard. 
The same Kakashi got prison raped by Kakuzu and would be dead probably twice if not for other people saving his ass.
How do you expect anyone to believe Kakuzu & Asuma being on the same level ? 

Asuma has higher stat total than Deidara as well. I guess Asuma is a little stronger huh ? 



> Like I told alex any time that you start saying shit like oh, but shown aresenals don't reflect such and such; your not making a good case for the stats being wrong, your making a good case, for your feat-centrict argument being flawed reasoning.


I didn't say stats are wrong.
The way you are trying to interpret them is wrong.

Ninjutsu refers to knowledge and proficiency. Even if you assume two people have equal knowledge and proficiency, their arsenals differ in quality. 
Madara and Hashirama will get 5's in Ninjutsu. Are you going to put them around Hidan's level in terms of ninjutsu strength ? I bet you will.



> By giving Asuma a stat total that would place him around Hidan/Kakuzu's "level".



No it wouldn't because all 3 of them are ninjutsu centric fighters, and immortal duo are light years beyond Asuma in regards to the quality of their jutsu. Their core jutsu are much more advanced  than his.
Asuma doesn't have a single technique that puts him around Hidan or Kakuzu's level.


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## Rob (Apr 20, 2014)

**


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## Kai (Apr 20, 2014)

Believing that Stat Totals translate to who would beat who is like still believing 1,000 ninjutsu is required to being a Hokage. Except, in this case databook stats were never meant to be totaled and compared to others for power comparisons. The flaws (should) hit you like a truck once you do that.

*Part 1* Kakashi will still have one of the highest "stat totals" in the history of the manga, yet he pales in comparison to the Kages and numerous characters alike of Part 2 era.


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## Turrin (Apr 20, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No he isn't.
> 
> Kakuzu is fuckloads stronger than Asuma.


You need to provide some kind of substance for your assertions or there is nothing to discuss



> Dude what are you saying ? Kakashi alone wouldn't have trouble against Asuma...
> Kakashi is clearly stronger than Asuma in every regard.


You need to provide some kind of substance for your assertions or there is nothing to discuss



> he same Kakashi got prison raped by Kakuzu and would be dead probably twice if not for other people saving his ass.


When the hell did Kakuzu rape Kakashi? Kakashi was fighting both Kakuzu & Hidan at times and at other times fighting Kakuzu while also protecting Ino/Choji. The best Kakuzu ever did against Kakashi was catch him with his tendrils.



> How do you expect anyone to believe Kakuzu & Asuma being on the same level ?


Idk, because the author states they are.



> Asuma has higher stat total than Deidara as well. I guess Asuma is a little stronger huh ?


Yup. Deidara is the most overrated character on these forums. Asuma straight up out performed Deidara in the war, with it taking much more from Team 10 to defeat Edo Asuma, than the Ambush Squad required to rape the ever loving shit out of Edo Deidara.



> I didn't say stats are wrong.
> The way you are trying to interpret them is wrong.
> 
> Ninjutsu refers to knowledge and proficiency. Even if you assume two people have equal knowledge and proficiency, their arsenals differ in quality.
> Madara and Hashirama will get 5's in Ninjutsu. Are you going to put them around Hidan's level in terms of ninjutsu strength ? I bet you will.


This has to do with individual stats, not what the author is telling us with totals. Madara and Hashirama's Ninjutsu Stat may be the same 5 as Hidan's (assuming Kishi doesn't expand the stats chart in DBIV), but you can bet that there stat chart is going to be close to perfect (if not perfect) and therefore reflect the fact that the author places them above Hidan's general "level". 



> No it wouldn't because all 3 of them are ninjutsu centric fighters, and immortal duo are light years beyond Asuma in regards to the quality of their jutsu. Their core jutsu are much more advanced than his


The DB reflects that Kakuzu and Hidan are better at Ninjutsu than Asuma.



Rocky said:


> Guys guys, it's cool. Part 1 Kakashi (34.5) is totally stronger than fresh Kakuzu (32.5).Preskip Kabuto (32) is completely on par with Deidara (32) too. Oh, and both are stronger than Gai.
> 
> #stattotalsdontlie



- Part I Kakashi has such a high DB Stat total because DB counts Sharingan. However Kakashi can't use Sharigan much pre-skip, so his DB stats reflect a quality that Kakashi can not consistently produce in Part I

- Have no problem with Kabuto being on the same "level" as Deidara 

- Stats don't include Gates. Gai without Gates would probably loose to both of them.

#Statsdon'tsupportmyfanwankingsoIdiscountthem


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## Rob (Apr 20, 2014)

Turrin...  What the hell?


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## Kanki (Apr 20, 2014)

Kakuzu is clearly on another level to Asuma 

Asuma himself admitted inferiority to both Kakuzu/Hidan. Deidara is overrated but he's also much stronger. As for the war, Kishi himself stated in an interview that Deidara was one of the strongest edo's due to his abilities. He had to be taken out quickly for plot reasons. Unless you expect to see unlimited C4.


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## Bonly (Apr 20, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> Turrin...  What the hell?



We've been asking that for a while. Flee, flee like the wind now instead of losing your sanity trying to understand


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## Turrin (Apr 20, 2014)

@Kanki Is God & RobLucciRapes

I'm sorry, but if you guys are going to complain because i'm going with what the author indicates, and than give no substance to your assertions of why this is wrong, that's a really shitty position to hold.

Asuma is simply underrate. He is one of Konoha's top Jonin, one of the 12 Ninja Guardians, Third-Hokage's son, Master 2 Nature Changes, DB Stats Place him on their general "level", Called Konoha's Gold/Silver by Kakuzu,etc...


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## Kubish (Apr 20, 2014)

Deidara solos.


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## Rob (Apr 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Kanki Is God & RobLucciRapes
> 
> I'm sorry, but if you guys are going to complain because i'm going with what the author indicates, and than give no substance to your assertions of why this is wrong, that's a really shitty position to hold.
> 
> Asuma is simply underrate. *He is one of Konoha's top Jonin, one of the 12 Ninja Guardians, Third-Hokage's son, Master 2 Nature Changes, DB Stats Place him on their general "level", Called Konoha's Gold/Silver by Kakuzu,*etc...



That shit doesn't matter when he was shown to be inferior 

Or so it seemed anyway


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## Kanki (Apr 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Kanki Is God & RobLucciRapes
> 
> I'm sorry, but if you guys are going to complain because i'm going with what the author indicates, and than give no substance to your assertions of why this is wrong, that's a really shitty position to hold.
> 
> Asuma is simply underrate. He is one of Konoha's top Jonin, one of the 12 Ninja Guardians, Third-Hokage's son, Master 2 Nature Changes, DB Stats Place him on their general "level", Called Konoha's Gold/Silver by Kakuzu,etc...



I'm not complaining - I was stating my view. You're basing your entire argument it seems by insignificant titles and the databook which may or may not have been written by Kishi.

The DB has a lot of flaws and inconsistencies - when you limit a score to 5 it's already flawed. Being a Ninja Guardian doesn't mean much when a Hokage guardian (whatever the title us) is a fodder Jounin.

Asuma flat out admitted inferiority to Hidan and Kakuzu. In fact I think the term he used was "...by far". Kishi put those words in Asuma's mouth, so by suggesting that isn't true, it's you who's going against what the author indicated.

Furthermore just look at what Kakuzu could do. His portrayal throughout the Immortals arc was one of being superior to everyone, with the only question being "If Kakashi used Kamui what would have happened?".

Kakuzu was a monster and only got defeated due to a mistake on his part (plot and time constraints thaks to the editors). Kakuzu is one of those guys who's very strong in every area. He's essentially the best of the 'none haxx' characters in the sense that you need to have a some major offence to defeat him. That's what puts him significantly ahead of Asuma. Kakuzu can fight against Kage level opponents. 

Most of his time in the war was off panel, and he was also separate from his body, this reducing his power significantly.

I actually agree he's underrated, but he isn't on Kakuzu's level.

:edit:

Damn it's been a while since I've been in here. I feel so rusty


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## Rocky (Apr 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> - Part I Kakashi has such a high DB Stat total because DB counts Sharingan. However Kakashi can't use Sharigan much pre-skip, so his DB stats reflect a quality that Kakashi can not consistently produce in Part I



Sharingan Part 1 Kakashi < Kakuzu 

I also find it funny that Part 1 Kakashi = Part 2 Kakashi, according to your "stat totals." How about Asuma = Kisame, that's another good one.



> - Have no problem with Kabuto being on the same "level" as Deidara



That's a problem.



> - Stats don't include Gates. Gai without Gates would probably loose to both of them.



So how do you know that Deidara & Kabuto don't posses techniques not counted in the Databook, considering that, ya know, we don't know their full arsenals.


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## Turrin (Apr 20, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I'm not complaining - I was stating my view. You're basing your entire argument it seems by insignificant titles and the databook which may or may not have been written by Kishi.
> l


1) I have the DB, Kishi is listed as the author
2) Titles and DB are hardly insignificant they let us know how strong Kishimoto wants a character to be viewed. 



> The DB has a lot of flaws and inconsistencies - when you limit a score to 5 it's already flawed


Your talking individual stats, not what the stats as a collective tells us about where the author places each Shinobi.



> Being a Ninja Guardian doesn't mean  much


That's not how it's portrayed in the story. When Kakuzu and Hidan go to kill Chiruku; Kakuzu tells Hidan that Chiruku is extremely dangerous as he was one of the 12 guardians:

_Kakuzu, "And that guy with the 30 million coin head is particularly dangerous, having once been selected as one of "The Twelve Shinobi Guardsmen", the escorts of the Fire Country daimyo"

Hidan, "The Twelve Shinobi Guardsmen? Is he really all that powerful?"

Kakuzu, "the insignia of the Fire Country on his waistband is proof of it..." "If you let your guard down... you're dead "_

These are the same people by the way, that your trying to say are an entire "level" above Asuma; yet they considered the title of 12 guardian  indicative that the person possessing said title was a major threat to them. 



> when a Hokage guardian (whatever the title us) is a fodder Jounin.


Are you talking about the 3 Shinobi who can use Hiraishin together, because that is anything but fodder.



> Asuma flat out admitted inferiority to Hidan and Kakuzu. In fact I think the term he used was "...by far". Kishi put those words in Asuma's mouth, so by suggesting that isn't true, it's you who's going against what the author indicated.


Asuma was saying the two of them combined were much stronger than him.

As I said to Ale, your interpretation denies the context of what's stated in the chapter. 

Before Kakuzu shows up Asuma is completely calm and states point blank that he was planning to defeat one of the Akatsuki members:

Asuma, "We already know you usually operate in pairs. I was planning to take down one of you first, than capture the other"

Asuma only starts freaking out, like in the panel you posted, after Kakuzu shows up and it's 2 Akatsuki members that he (& his squad) have to deal with at once. 

So no Asuma felt he had a chance to defeat one of the Akatsuki members, he just didn't think he stood a chance against 2 Akatsuki members.



> Furthermore just look at what Kakuzu could do. His portrayal throughout the Immortals arc was one of being superior to everyone, with the only question being "If Kakashi used Kamui what would have happened?"


I think this is a bit of an exaggeration of Kakuzu's portrayal. 

At times Kakashi was fighting Kakuzu and Hidan at the same time and still keeping up and at others was fighting Kakuzu while also protecting members of team 10. So yeah I think it was extremely clear that Kakashi was better than Kakuzu.



> Kakuzu was a monster and only got defeated due to a mistake on his part (plot and time constraints thaks to the editors). Kakuzu is one of those guys who's very strong in every area. He's essentially the best of the 'none haxx' characters in the sense that you need to have a some major offence to defeat him. That's what puts him significantly ahead of Asuma.


Your overrating Kakuzu. In the war he was defeated by Kotetsu, Izumo, Tenten, and Choji without much issue. In comparison Asuma was defeated by Ino, Shika, and Choji. Both of their portrayals were very similar. 



> Kakuzu can fight against Kage level opponents.


Asuma and Kakuzu can fight against Kage level opponents, it's just that they probably won't win



> Most of his time in the war was off panel, and he was also separate from his body, this reducing his power significantly.


Separate from his body?



> I actually agree he's underrated, but he isn't on Kakuzu's level.


1) DB Stats Tell us that he is
2) Kakuzu himself indicates a 12 Guardian is a major threat to him
3) Asuma himself believes he at least has a chance to take Hidan or Kakuzu 1v1
4) Kakuzu himself holds Asuma in high regard calling him Konoha's Gold/Silver
5) Similar performance and portrayal in the war-arc

Sorry, but I think the manga & DB both place Asuma around Kakuzu's "level". Kakuzu is stronger than Asuma, but it's not enough to put him in an entirely different "level" (or "tier")



RobLucciRapes said:


> That shit doesn't matter when he was shown to be inferior


When was Asume shown to be an entire "level" inferior. Hidan defeated Asuma, as Asuma had no knowledge on Hidan's ability and had never encountered it before. That doesn't mean Asuma wouldn't be better in many other situations than Hidan or that Hidan would consistently defeat Asuma under alternative conditions. Asuma and Kakuzu never even fought.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 20, 2014)

In the no knowledge scenario the artist duo takes it they have moves you can't make a mistake around like C4. Kakuzu raiton advantage would do no good if he don't figure it out in time and team zombie are not taking out team artist quick enough for it not to matter. Also iron sand trolls hidan hard because metal weapons = no good against third kazekage magnetism. Kakuzu's immortality hardly matters to deidara AoE which means multiple hearts are getting obliterate(like rasenshuriken level damage only pretty casual). Iron sand vs domu is a win for domu for me but it won't come down to this with deidara's explosions going unhinged.

Knowledge scenario kakuzu can know to shut down deidara's clay with raiton whenever he sees a threat. Hidan is still a non factor and sasori's worst nightmare is AoE moves since his puppets are frail. Domu can handle the third kazekage should it come down to that. Basically team immortal wins because of raiton from kakuzu. If omoi who has fodder raiton can shut down C4, more potent raiton from kakuzu shutting down C3 is no problem.


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## Turrin (Apr 20, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Sharingan Part 1 Kakashi < Kakuzu


Of course he is because Sharingan drains Kakashi heavily. If Kakashi had Uchiha blood he'd be stronger. 



> I also find it funny that Part 1 Kakashi = Part 2 Kakashi, according to your "stat totals." .


The only increases Part 2 Kakashi has had are Sharingan based, I.E. how much he can utilize Sharingan without it over taxing him. Part 1 Kakashi's stats reflect his ability with Sharingan taken into consideration. So there wouldn't be much increase in Part 1 Kakashi's statistical ability and Part II Kakashi's statistical ability. I'm sure Kakashi got better, but it probably wasn't enough to up his statistical score.



> How about Asuma = Kisame, that's another good one.


Kisame got stronger over time in Part II, mostly from absorbing B's Chakra. I also doubt the stats include Samehada. Finally the stats aren't going to say that characters are exactly equal, they are going to indicate that certain characters on a similar "level". So yeah I have no problem with this score ether.



> That's a problem.


Yeah it's a problem for someone trying to wank Deidara.



> So how do you know that Deidara & Kabuto don't posses techniques not counted in the Databook, considering that, ya know, we don't know their full arsenals


Anything is possible, but it's highly unlikely that Deidara and Kabuto possess some sort of ascended mode that drastically increases their overall "level", like gates. After all the author has made their portrayal within the manga cannon fit the "level" they are indicated to be at in the DB, while giving no indication that they have such an ascended mode.

Edit: Their is a difference between saying that we don't know a character's entire arsenal and they might have Jutsu more applicable to certain situations we didn't see, as they were not placed in said situations. And wishing to believe that someone has an ascended form that would raise them an entire "level" or multiple "levels"; that was never even remotely hinted at.


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## Rocky (Apr 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Of course he is because Sharingan drains Kakashi heavily. If Kakashi had Uchiha blood he'd be stronger.



But Kakashi doesn't have Uchiha blood, so do you have a point? Kakashi "at his best" in Part 1 was not superior to Kakuzu.  

It's like you don't even understand your own argument.



> The only increases Part 2 Kakashi has had are Sharingan based, I.E. how much he can utilize Sharingan without it over taxing him.



And the Mangekyou, which is included in the Databook.



> Part 1 Kakashi's stats reflect his ability with Sharingan taken into consideration.



So do Part 2 Kakashi's.


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## wooly Eullerex (Apr 20, 2014)

C4 doesn't affect non-respirating or dead material. It is absolutely docile & benign against Sasori.


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## Turrin (Apr 20, 2014)

Rocky said:


> But Kakashi doesn't have Uchiha blood, so do you have a point? Kakashi "at his best" in Part 1 was not superior to Kakuzu.
> .


Kakashi could never achieve his best in Part I, because his Sharingan tax'd him too much. 



> And the Mangekyou, which is included in the Databook.


Kakashi has had Mangekyo Sharingan for years. His issue always was that Sharingan tax'd him too heavily to pull it out.



> So do Part 2 Kakashi's.


Yeah and that's my point.


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## Rocky (Apr 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi could never achieve his best in Part I, because his Sharingan tax'd him too much.



:heston

So what you're saying is, Part 1 Kakashi's statistical representation of power in the Databook isn't accurate. 

The Databook isn't a measure of potential either. If the Sharingan taxed Kakashi too much, than he wasn't as powerful as he was in Part 2.



> Kakashi has had Mangekyo Sharingan for years. His issue always was that Sharingan tax'd him too heavily to pull it out.



He re-awoke it in Part 2, much like Sasuke re-awoke his Sharingan.


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## Rocky (Apr 20, 2014)

The scores capping at 5 is also a major issue. Hidan sharing the same Ninjutsu score with Hashirama is obviously inaccurate, which would in turn lead to an inaccurate stat total.


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## iJutsu (Apr 21, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Asuma himself admitted inferiority to both Kakuzu/Hidan.



To both maybe. Asuma had no problems taking out Hidan one on one. Kakuzu interrupted, so it became two against one.


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## Dr. White (Apr 21, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> To both maybe. Asuma had no problems taking out Hidan one on one. Kakuzu interrupted, so it became two against one.



he had shikamaru's help. although I'd say he is elite jounin level consistent with what kisame showed in pt. 1.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 21, 2014)

I think everyone here is contend that Turrin has lost his mind or gone senile. 

Take a break Turrin.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> This author says differently, so i'm going to have to say this is wrong. Your opinion on how these characters stack up is most likely based on their shown arsenals, which is why your coming to the wrong conclusion. This is not to say Kakuzu isn't better than Asuma, because I think he is, but the gap is very small.


 My opinion is based on the story and character statements. We have a biju-hunting cell that made Asuma shit his pants after a brief encounter against just one of them. We have Asuma with Shikamaru support against just Hidan being a high-diff fight for the Duo(with injuries and chakra exhaustion). Asuma(with superior totals) with Shikamaru(skilled chunin) barely beat Hidan together. Asuma isn't equal to Hidan. Yet alone Kakuzu(who by Kakashi's statement is the stronger one between them). Asuma is on a different tier from Hidan, Kakuzu and Kakashi. You don't even need feats to prove that. Even though his Totals say otherwise. Unless you make your Tiers _very_ broad of course. Wouldn't surprise me if you do, considering your current views.



Turrin said:


> Your interpretation denies the context of what's stated in the chapter.
> 
> Before Kakuzu shows up Asuma is completely calm and states point blank that he was planning to defeat one of the Akatsuki members:
> 
> ...


Asuma stated that they have planned to take one member with teamwork+sneak attack... before Hidan showed Immortality. Making Asuma say that Hidan possessed "great skill". Which shows that Asuma realized that his whole team vs Hidan isn't going to be easy(and Shikamaru freaking out from Hidan's chakra... which is yet another nod to Hidan being superior to Asuma). Asuma wasn't certain about his whole team vs Hidan just after seeing glimpse of Hidan's powers. And it took Asuma+Shilamaru to bring Hidan down with high-diff. 



Turrin said:


> Okay and your point is what? When Kakashi says Naruto is stronger, he is obviously including everything in his assessment; Summons & Kyuubi-Chakra as well. Naruto's DB stats do not include KN or the individual abilities of Summons.
> 
> Course we do. But have Kakuzu, Sasori, Deidara, or Hidan been indicated to have something, that is not covered by the stats? None of them are summoners and none of them have some power up that greatly increases their base-abilities. For most shinobi the stats are a good indicator.


Classic double standards. "Totals are accurate because we don't know the whole arsenal and they show the general level. We can't rely on feats." "Totals contradict manga statements? Well obviously there are things that are not included in stats - because of feats." 
Don't you realize how hypocritical(or simply stupid) this is? You argue that feats aren't reliable and then rationalize stat totals being wrong with not-included abilities/powerups. Which you got from feats. If you argue that people can't show everything they are capable of then don't argue that those Akatsuki doesn't have anything that isn't covered in stats. Because you don't know. Kakuzu's Suiton Heart is featless. Who knows what kind of ability it grants? Sasori had several unused scrolls on his back that might have had _anything _sealed inside.


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## Rob (Apr 21, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2014)

alex payne said:


> My opinion is based on the story and character statements. We have a biju-hunting cell that made Asuma shit his pants after a brief encounter against just one of them. .


Okay let's go off of the story. Yes Asuma was shitting his pants when going up against 2 Akatsuki. But he felt he could handle 1. Kakuzu deemed someone worthy of the title of 12 Guardian a threat to him and later showed Asuma a great deal of respect calling him the gold/silver of Konoha. Both received very similar portrayal and required a similar fighting force to defeat in the war.  This does not jive with the idea that Kakuzu is an entire "tier"/"level" above Asuma and falls closer in line with the DB- Stat totals. 




> We have Asuma with Shikamaru support against just Hidan being a high-diff fight for the Duo(with injuries and chakra exhaustion). Asuma(with superior totals) with Shikamaru(skilled chunin) barely beat Hidan together. Asuma isn't equal to Hidan


Asuma and Shikkamaru would have low diff'd Hidan if not for Kakuzu saving him from the initial shadow bind. After Kakuzu appeared, Asuma was also forced to change his strategy to charging Hidan to try and end the battle quickly, before Kakuzu became involved. Something Shikkamaru specifically said was not like Asuma. Simply put Asuma was taking risks he normally wouldn't to end Hidan quickly, due to Kakuzu. From there Hidan managed to get Asuma's blood since Asuma had no knowledge on him and Asuma charging at him in CQC. Hidan than did some damage to Asuma, but was decesively defeated yet again by Asuma + Shikkamaru, at which point Kakuzu had to save him again.

So it was Kakuzu's that caused that match to be much more difficult and dangerous than it needed to be. As did the fact that Hidan is much more dangerous in a no knowledge scenario.



> Yet alone Kakuzu(who by Kakashi's statement is the stronger one between them).


Which the DB stats also reflects. 



> Asuma is on a different tier from Hidan, Kakuzu and Kakashi. You don't even need feats to prove that. Even though his Totals say otherwise. Unless you make your Tiers very broad of course. Wouldn't surprise me if you do, considering your current views.


My Tiers are broad, but not insanely so.




> Asuma stated that they have planned to take one member with teamwork+sneak attack... before Hidan showed Immortality. Making Asuma say that Hidan possessed "great skill". Which shows that Asuma realized that his whole team vs Hidan isn't going to be easy(and Shikamaru freaking out from Hidan's chakra... which is yet another nod to Hidan being superior to Asuma). Asuma wasn't certain about his whole team vs Hidan just after seeing glimpse of Hidan's powers. And it took Asuma+Shilamaru to bring Hidan down with high-diff.


Not once did Asuma indicate that he wasn't certain about his entire team vs Hidan. Again the problems and freaks out Asuma had were always within the context of two Akatsuki members. Asuma said Hidan is going to be problematic, because he wanted to quickly kill Hidan before Kakuzu showed up, but Hidan's ability made killing him before Kakuzu appeared difficult. 

Again look at the manga. Asuma is completely confident and calm against just Hidan. Than the freakout begins when Kakuzu shows up. It couldn't get any clearer than that, that Asuma consider himself capable of handling one Akatsuki, but couldn't handle both of them.



> Classic double standards. "Totals are accurate because we don't know the whole arsenal and they show the general level. We can't rely on feats." "Totals contradict manga statements? Well obviously there are things that are not included in stats - because of feats."
> Don't you realize how hypocritical(or simply stupid) this is? You argue that feats aren't reliable and then rationalize stat totals being wrong with not-included abilities/powerups. Which you got from feats. If you argue that people can't show everything they are capable of then don't argue that those Akatsuki doesn't have anything that isn't covered in stats. Because you don't know. Kakuzu's Suiton Heart is featless. Who knows what kind of ability it grants? Sasori had several unused scrolls on his back that might have had anything sealed inside


It's not a double standard it's you attacking a straw-man. I didn't say "feats" are not accurate, I said "Feats" based comparisons are inaccurate, because we don't know a shinobi's entire arsenal. I also never said you can look at stat-totals in a mindless zombie like fashion where you don't have to use your brain whatsoever when looking at the stat totals. If someone has an ascended form that greatly alters their capabilities, than obviously we should look at the stat totals as a base estimate and consider the fact that they are better in said ascended form. Simply put people want to just look at the totals mindlessly without considering anything else, and the moment that doesn't work they come to the conclusion that the stats are worthless, instead of putting them into context with the manga cannon.

And sure it's possible that those Akatsuki could have something not covered in the stats, which is why I used the word "likely" in my analysis, not fact. Basically, it's unlikely that these Akatsuki members have something not accounted by the stats, like an ascended form, that is going to raise them tiers beyond where the DB stat total indicates they should be placed. Not everyone is going to have a the nine-tails fox sealed inside them and have a summoning contract with Myoubokuzan. 

I think someone smart such as yourself can realize the difference between this and the potential of unseen situational jutsu or tactics. 



Rocky said:


> :heston
> 
> So what you're saying is, Part 1 Kakashi's statistical representation of power in the Databook isn't accurate.
> 
> The Databook isn't a measure of potential either. If the Sharingan taxed Kakashi too much, than he wasn't as powerful as he was in Part 2.


It's not a matter of inaccurate, it's a matter of you having to use your head and put the Stats into context with what we've been told in the manga cannon. 



> He re-awoke it in Part 2, much like Sasuke re-awoke his Sharingan.


Rewoke lol, what is that.


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## Dominus (Apr 21, 2014)

Turrin, by your logic Hidan is much stronger than Gaara. Don't you find that a bit weird?


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## Dr. White (Apr 21, 2014)

Hidan is not > Asuma..... Hidan is elite jonin level with his zombie bro. Kakashi fended him off with a kunai whilst dodging AOE blast. Whilst Kakashi is > Asuma, I don't rate him that low that Asuma couldn't overcome Hidan with his Ninkenjutsu, and ninjutsu altogether with mid- High diff or so


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## Sumon (Apr 21, 2014)

Hidan's scythe was broken when he fought Kakashi, thus limiting his fighting style very much.


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## Dr. White (Apr 21, 2014)

Sumon said:


> Hidan's scythe was broken when he fought Kakashi, thus limiting his fighting style very much.



Broken how so? He had 3 blades on the thing and Kakashi had a 6 inch knife. I don't care if he had a one bladed scyth he got out moved and badly considering what else Kakashi was dealing with


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## Sumon (Apr 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Broken how so? He had 3 blades on the thing and Kakashi had a 6 inch knife. I don't care if he had a one bladed scyth he got out moved and badly considering what else Kakashi was dealing with



Broken as in there was no metallic cable attached to it. That alone limited Hidan's fighting style.


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## Dr. White (Apr 21, 2014)

True but that still adds nothing because Kakuzu more than makes up for that being gone even without his mask. Asuma being the one who broke it further proves my point above Hidans level


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## Sumon (Apr 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> True but that still adds nothing because Kakuzu more than makes up for that being gone even without his mask. Asuma being the one who broke it further proves my point above Hidans level


Get your facts straight.

*Spoiler*: __


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## Dr. White (Apr 21, 2014)

Sumon said:


> Get your facts straight.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



My bad even worse, he used it to ward off an explosive kunai (the dude is immortal) instead. This changes nothing. The zombies duo's combo was to have Hidan at short, so Kakuzu could blast both targets forcing you to focus on Hidan upfront or Kakuzu from range (while Hidan didn't have to worry). Kakashi straight up made Hidan look like a fool. Hidan is not > Asuma featwise.


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## Sumon (Apr 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> My bad even worse, he used it to ward off an explosive kunai (the dude is immortal) instead. This changes nothing. The zombies duo's combo was to have Hidan at short, so Kakuzu could blast both targets forcing you to focus on Hidan upfront or Kakuzu from range (while Hidan didn't have to worry). Kakashi straight up made Hidan look like a fool. *Hidan is not > Asuma featwise.*


I'm not gonna argue over Kakuzu and Hidan vs Team Kakashi as I presume it would be pointless and too exhausting, but how the hell can you write the bold part when Hidan vs Asuma was canon and Asuma got his ass kicked even with the help of Shikamaru? Saying otherwise is just pure ignorance.


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## Dr. White (Apr 21, 2014)

Sumon said:


> I'm not gonna argue over Kakuzu and Hidan vs Team Kakashi as I presume it would be pointless and too exhausting, but how the hell can you write the bold part when Hidan vs Asuma was canon and Asuma got his ass kicked even with the help of Shikamaru? Saying otherwise is just pure ignorance.



Hidan has not shown the speed to blitz Asuma, nor the strength to overpower him. Asuma has his knives to counter his scythe, and ninjutsu to keep him at bay. Hidan is way to one dimensional to beat Asuma, his best chance is a no knowledge fight but I don't see him slicing Asuma before Asuma lops his head off with his knive blades (similar to how he cut Kisame). I am arguing from a feats/portrayal standpoint. Using the fight logic isn't accurate here as Asuma had help from Shikamaru in intially low diffing Hidan, and Hidan needed Kakuzu to restitch his head so that he could draw Asuma's blood. In a manga knowledge fight there is no way Asuma loses to Hidan.


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## Sumon (Apr 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Hidan has not shown the speed to blitz Asuma, nor the strength to overpower him. Asuma has his knives to counter his scythe, and ninjutsu to keep him at bay. Hidan is way to one dimensional to beat Asuma, his best chance is a no knowledge fight but I don't see him slicing Asuma before Asuma lops his head off with his knive blades (similar to how he cut Kisame). I am arguing from a feats/portrayal standpoint. Using the fight logic isn't accurate here as Asuma had help from Shikamaru in intially low diffing Hidan, and Hidan needed Kakuzu to restitch his head so that he could draw Asuma's blood. In a manga knowledge fight there is no way Asuma loses to Hidan.



Just reread the fight. Your memory is so fucked up that you can't recall how the fight actually went. Here's a timeline for you:

Hidan and Asuma fight briefly while Shikamaru tries to catch Hidan with Kage Nui *>* Hidan draws Asuma's blood while the latter executes Katon: Haisekishō  *>* Asuma gets burnt and proceeds to be tortured *>* Hidan goes for the kill with stab to his own heart, but fools around too much gets caught in Shikamaru's Kagemane no Jutsu . Shikamaru figures out Hidan's technique and moves him out of the circle using Kagemane no Jutsu  *>* Barely alive Asuma beheads restrained with Kage Nui Hidan *>* only then Kakuzu reattaches Hidan's head. 

Seriously, man. I'm outta here. Get your freaking facts straight.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> My bad even worse, he used it to ward off an explosive kunai (the dude is immortal) instead. This changes nothing. The zombies duo's combo was to have Hidan at short, so Kakuzu could blast both targets forcing you to focus on Hidan upfront or Kakuzu from range (while Hidan didn't have to worry). Kakashi straight up made Hidan look like a fool. Hidan is not > Asuma featwise.



Hidan is decisively >> Asuma, both feat and portrayal wise.

He solo killed Asuma after his secret was exploited(which btw happened thanks to Shikamaru). 

And before that, he almost low diffed Asuma who was being backed up by Shikamaru : *this with just a claw swipe? *

Had Hidan wasn't fucking around, he'd have killed Asuma, instead of playing with him. 

So yes, re-read that fight. Hidan defeated Asuma with low difficulty. Twice.


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Turrin, by your logic Hidan is much stronger than Gaara. Don't you find that a bit weird?


DBIII Gaara had just lost his demon, I would expect him to not be nearly as strong as before.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> DBIII Gaara had just lost his demon, I would expect him to not be nearly as strong as before.


What a load of crap.



His "demon" wasn't accounted in the stats anyway why does it matter ?


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## Dr. White (Apr 21, 2014)

Sumon said:


> Just reread the fight. Your memory is so fucked up that you can't recall how the fight actually went. Here's a timeline for you:
> 
> Hidan and Asuma fight briefly while Shikamaru tries to catch Hidan with Kage Nui *>* Hidan draws Asuma's blood while the latter executes Katon: Haisekishō  *>* Asuma gets burnt and proceeds to be tortured *>* Hidan goes for the kill with stab to his own heart, but fools around too much gets caught in Shikamaru's Kagemane no Jutsu . Shikamaru figures out Hidan's technique and moves him out of the circle using Kagemane no Jutsu  *>* Barely alive Asuma beheads restrained with Kage Nui Hidan *>* only then Kakuzu reattaches Hidan's head.
> 
> Seriously, man. I'm outta here. Get your freaking facts straight.



Hidan blocks Asuma's distraction, and counteracts to which asuma dodges and gets caught out of the gate by 3 chunin. Not showing much more than Jonin level talent there, also displays he is extremely rash (albeit his ability allows it.); had he been alone that was game right there

Meanwhile Kakuzu the far more superior ninja present (who hyped Asuma) stopped in his assualt of Shikamaru to Asuma, before being told not to interfere. 

Then Asuma admits to being rash right now in order to protect what's important to him. After equally clashing, Asuma charges in and gets nicked. Asuma gets moderately burnt. Shikamaru grabs Hidan and then figures him out. Asuma lops his head off.

What about that interpretation makes you think Hidan by himself is > Asuma in any signifigant way. Asuma was threatened by the constant threat of Kakuzu being there and was openly rash. In a regular fight against Hidan alone he would be way more cautious (as he showed after Shika saved him), and could have felt him out with katon/fuuton and then his enhanced knives.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> He solo killed Asuma after his secret was exploited(which btw happened thanks to Shikamaru).
> 
> And before that, he almost low diffed Asuma who was being backed up by Shikamaru : Asuma lops


Asuma admitted to being rash, instead of being calm as Shikamaru suggested. He knew the two akatsuki were strong, and Kakuzu's willingness to jump in and constant threats to do so wayed on Asuma who's main concern was protecting his team. This would not be the case in a fair 1v1 fight.



> Had Hidan wasn't fucking around, he'd have killed Asuma, instead of playing with him.


Hidan wasn't fucking around, that it his IC attitude on the regular. It is a staple of his character.



> So yes, re-read that fight. Hidan defeated Asuma with low difficulty. Twice.


If you are judging it from a 1v1 perspective which I am not sure why you would be. Asuma did what any non cocky as hell good jonin leader would do and utilize his team. I'm gonna fight someone different if I have back up (cover fire in a military example) than if I am alone. Asuma and co no diffed Hidan the first time, and low diffed him the second. Yeah asuma suffered burns but that was it up unto that point his whole plan was "I'm gonna burst ahead rashly, while you try to bind him" Asuma did just that, and they lopped his head off. There was little they could do once Kakuzu repaired him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Asuma admitted to being rash, instead of being calm as Shikamaru suggested. He knew the two akatsuki were strong, and Kakuzu's willingness to jump in and constant threats to do so wayed on Asuma who's main concern was protecting his team. This would not be the case in a fair 1v1 fight.
> 
> 
> Hidan wasn't fucking around, that it his IC attitude on the regular. It is a staple of his character.
> ...




I've read those chapters over and over again and I can't see it in a different light. Hidan and Asuma engaged, Hidan drew blood and performed his ritual. It was a brief exchange and Hidan didn't seem to have any trouble up intil Shikamaru interfered, who conveniently has the perfect arsenal which allows him to disable hidan without doing any harm to him. Hidan could have stabbed himself immediately in the gut, instead of the leg but he wasn't taking it seriously.

In their second engagement, pretty much the same thing happened but this time Hidan killed Asuma, another brief exchange resulting in his favor.

But whatever bro, I am not willing to go into a circular argument. If you don't see any truth to what I am saying, don't trouble yourself with a reply.


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## Dr. White (Apr 21, 2014)

Itachi Sama is disappointed with your insight.


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## The Undying (Apr 21, 2014)

Rocky said:


> He re-awoke it in Part 2, much like Sasuke re-awoke his Sharingan.




I don't recall there being any sort of indication that Kakashi reawakened his Mangekyou in Part 2, especially given that his first demonstrated use of MS in the series was actually deliberated beforehand. Turrin is right about the first timeline usage of it being in his childhood, and I also remember Kakashi making a specific callback to the Part-1-hyped "Copy Ninja Kakashi" at the beginning of the present war. In all fairness, I don't think we've ever _seen_ Part 1 Kakashi at his best before the timeskip as far as Kishimoto's current view of the character is concerned.

I realize that stat totals aren't generally viewed in a favorable light in the NBD, but I feel like people are giving them too little credit. Rin no Sho does unequivocally state that they're important in some manner, so they obviously have to count for something.


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What a load of crap.
> 
> 
> 
> His "demon" wasn't accounted in the stats anyway why does it matter ?



Yeah and your point is what lol. Authorian was asking does it make sense for Gaara to be that low. To which I answered it can make sense because he lost his demon, which could have had a major impact on his strength. The demon isn't counted in stats, but it probably was raising him beyond the level of strength he possessed via his stats. 

Gaara in the suna arc may have had the same stat total or perhaps even a bit lower, but he had Demon + Topographic advantage which is why he came off much stronger than that.

@Dr. White
I'm very glad that someone-else is bothering to take the time to understand what the manga is actually indicating +reps


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## Nikushimi (Apr 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> We need only look at DB Stat Totals to tell who the likely winner here is.
> 
> Sasori: 34.5 > Kakuzu: 32.5
> Deidara: 32 > Hidan: 31.5



Stat totals don't even remotely begin to tell us who would win.

In case you forgot, Hidan lost to Shikamaru, whose stat total isn't even comparable.

Stat totals don't mean anything; even the _proper_ individual stats only tell us very specific, limited information about the strength of shinobi.



> The gap between Sasori and Kakuzu is decisive enough where it's highly unlikely Sasori would loose to Kakuzu.



Kakuzu is well-suited to fight Sasori.

The only thing he has to watch out for is poison gas, but he should have no trouble avoiding that or holding his breath if he has intel on it.

He's got good odds of beating Sasori, although Sasori can certainly pull off a win as well and I would generally rate him as the stronger shinobi.



> The gape between Deidara and Hidan is less decisive, and maybe Hidan might be able to pull out 1 or 2 wins out of 10,



No.

Restrict flight and any chakra grade above C1, and the answer is still no.

Unrestricted Deidara would reduce thousands of Hidans to charred grease at a whim.


EDIT: Oh yeah. As for this match, Sasori and Deidara stomp brutally in both scenarios; they both go up on Deidara's bird and proceed to rain death from above. Kakuzu and Hidan basically last however long it takes for the artists to get serious about wiping them out.


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## Dominus (Apr 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> DBIII Gaara had just lost his demon, I would expect him to not be nearly as strong as before.



He lost Shukaku at the beginning of Part II and the Third Databook covers until after Sasuke's and Itachi battle so it's not like he had just lost him but anyway where exactly is it implied that Gaara couldn't use any of the powers he used against Deidara because we saw later in the war that he could? Of course he couldn't transform into Shukaku, but he didn't do that against Deidara so I'm pretty sure he didn't lose any powers he had in the fight against him.



Turrin said:


> The demon isn't counted in stats, but it probably was raising him beyond the level of strength he possessed via his stats.



Wait, you said Shukaku isn't counted in Gaara's stats? Then how is Hidan stronger than Gaara?


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## titantron91 (Apr 22, 2014)

It should've been Kakuzu + Kisame/Orochimaru

Hidan sux balls.


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## Turrin (Apr 22, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> He lost Shukaku at the beginning of Part II and the Third Databook covers until after Sasuke's and Itachi battle so it's not like he had just lost him but anyway where exactly is it implied that Gaara couldn't use any of the powers he used against Deidara because we saw later in the war that he could? Of course he couldn't transform into Shukaku, but he didn't do that against Deidara so I'm pretty sure he didn't lose any powers he had in the fight against him.


First let me preface this by saying i'm only suggesting this as a possible explanation for why Gaara's stat-total does not reflect the level of strength we witnessed in the Deidara battle. Yes Gaara demonstrates a similar degree of power in the war, perhaps even, better, but it's possible he trained during the time since he lost Shukaku to reclaim power he lost from the extraction of his demon. 

As for how his demon helped him, I would think any Jinchuuriki would receive some passive boosts from having their demon inside them, such as some of that demon's chakra leaking into theirs. Additionally in the Deidara battle Gaara's sand had a very distinct Shukaku quality, which it does not have after Gaara loose Shukaku; so that may indeed suggest Gaara was drawing on Shukaku's power during his duel with Deidara. Than there is the loss of Gaara's automatic defense. And finally the fact that Gaara had an extreme topographic advantage when fighting Deidara. 

It's quite plausible to me that if we remove Gaara's demon and topographic advantage that his overall "level" could be drastically lowered. 

Yes DBIII goes up to 3 arcs after Shukaku's extraction, but Gaara may not have made most of his major improvements in those arcs, and his major improvements were later during the manga.


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## Dominus (Apr 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> First let me preface this by saying i'm only suggesting this as a possible explanation for why Gaara's stat-total does not reflect the level of strength we witnessed in the Deidara battle. Yes Gaara demonstrates a similar degree of power in the war, perhaps even, better, but it's possible he trained during the time since he lost Shukaku to reclaim power he lost from the extraction of his demon.
> 
> As for how his demon helped him, I would think any Jinchuuriki would receive some passive boosts from having their demon inside them, such as some of that demon's chakra leaking into theirs. Additionally in the Deidara battle Gaara's sand had a very distinct Shukaku quality, which it does not have after Gaara loose Shukaku; so that may indeed suggest Gaara was drawing on Shukaku's power during his duel with Deidara. Than there is the loss of Gaara's automatic defense. And finally the fact that Gaara had an extreme topographic advantage when fighting Deidara.
> 
> ...



Minato knew a special seal, he used it to protect Naruto and where is it implied that the same thing happened with Shukaku and Gaara?

Gaara could still use his  and as for the topographic advantage, Gaara doesn't have to be in the desert .

I don't know where you're getting the idea that Gaara was so much weaker than when he had Shukaku, I don't see Hidan beating any version of Part II Gaara let alone being on a different level from him.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 22, 2014)

Turrin, this is just painful.

Deidara, Gaara, and pretty much any other Kage-level ninja would rip Hidan a new ritual hole with the greatest of ease.

He isn't competitive at that level.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> First let me preface this by saying i'm only suggesting this as a possible explanation for why Gaara's stat-total does not reflect the level of strength we witnessed in the Deidara battle. Yes Gaara demonstrates a similar degree of power in the war, perhaps even, better, but it's possible he trained during the time since he lost Shukaku to reclaim power he lost from the extraction of his demon.
> 
> As for how his demon helped him, I would think any Jinchuuriki would receive some passive boosts from having their demon inside them, such as some of that demon's chakra leaking into theirs. Additionally in the Deidara battle Gaara's sand had a very distinct Shukaku quality, which it does not have after Gaara loose Shukaku; so that may indeed suggest Gaara was drawing on Shukaku's power during his duel with Deidara. Than there is the loss of Gaara's automatic defense. And finally the fact that Gaara had an extreme topographic advantage when fighting Deidara.
> 
> ...



Unless you are tapping into the power of a bijuu your abilities aren't boosted as far as I know.
In naruto's case I it was stated that Kyuubi's chakra somehow leaked into Naruto's and his stamina became greater ? Well, Gaara has tier 5 stamina in the databook, without his Bijuu. So thats an irrelevant detail in his case, stat was he is already roof tier in stamina.

Also @ best that passive boost would reflect on strength and speed, considering Gaara's stats are terrible in those areas, it should be a negligible boost.

Power ups don't make a shinobi more 'skilled' or ingelligent or more  talented. There is no way they could reflect on the stats other than maybe the physical ones.


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## Turrin (Apr 22, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Minato knew a special seal, he used it to protect Naruto and where is it implied that the same thing happened with Shukaku and Gaara?


Personally I don't think any Jinchuuriki's chakra is not effected in some ways by having Bijuu sealed inside them. 

- Roshi due to having Yonbi sealed into him became a Yoton user. 
- Yugito displayed cat like ability
- Fu had that shiny bug like substance
- Gaara has sand

However if you want examples from Gaara exactly. 

- We've seen him draw on Shukaku's power before. 
- We've seen Shukaku can leak power out of the seal for automatic defense
- We've seen that the seal is weak enough where if Gaara sleeps Shukaku can release itself
- We've seen that the seal is weak enough where in moments of Gaara's emotional out burst Shukaku can take over

There is plenty of evidence to suggest Shukaku's chakra was effecting Gaara.



> Gaara could still use his "absolute defense"


Absolute defense is not automatic defense. Those are two different things.



> and as for the topographic advantage, Gaara doesn't have to be in the desert to use large amounts of sand.


What you just showed is nowhere even remotely comparable to what Gaara demonstrated against Deidara.



> I don't know where you're getting the idea that Gaara was so much weaker than when he had Shukaku, I don't see Hidan beating any version of Part II Gaara let alone being on a different level from him.


I don't see how your judging a early Part II Gaara without Shukaku and Topographic advantage, period. Literally the only time we saw Gaara fight in early part II was with these two things. So how can we possibly judge his overall "level" without these things.

As for being able to see Hidan beat Gaara. Based on feats I can't see Hidan beating CE-Gaara considering all of Hidan's ritual requires blood and Hidan's scythe has no feats suggesting it could get through even CE Gaara's ultimate defense. Beyond that Hidan hasn't shown anything. However there is no way in hell Kishimoto wants us to believe CE Gaara is on a higher "level" than Hidan. Which should exemplify why feats are such a poor argument to base ones logic off of. This is doubly true in this case, as Kishimoto outright states that he didn't have enough time to show off all the things he had planned for Hidan and the immortals arc was very clearly one of the most rushed arcs in the entire series; which is why Kishimoto had to put Hidan/Kakuzu's entire back-stories in the DB, when typically we would get some degree of flashbacks or closure to their stories; as we do with pretty much every other arc villain in the series.


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## Dominus (Apr 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Personally I don't think any Jinchuuriki's chakra is not effected in some ways by having Bijuu sealed inside them.
> 
> - Roshi due to having Yonbi sealed into him became a Yoton user.
> - Yugito displayed cat like ability
> ...



I still see no proof of Gaara getting weaker after Shukaku was extracted, he still regained his abilities except for the ability to transform into Shukaku.



> Absolute defense is not automatic defense. Those are two different things.



The name of Gaara's defense is "absolute defense".




> What you just showed is nowhere even remotely comparable to what Gaara demonstrated against Deidara.



Gaara got stronger over the time skip. Sure, in the desert he can create more sand, how much more I don't know, but I do know that he can create a lot even when he's not in the desert.



> I don't see how your judging a early Part II Gaara without Shukaku and Topographic advantage, period. Literally the only time we saw Gaara fight in early part II was with these two things. So how can we possibly judge his overall "level" without these things.
> 
> As for being able to see Hidan beat Gaara. Based on feats I can't see Hidan beating CE-Gaara considering all of Hidan's ritual requires blood and Hidan's scythe has no feats suggesting it could get through even CE Gaara's ultimate defense. Beyond that Hidan hasn't shown anything. However there is no way in hell Kishimoto wants us to believe CE Gaara is on a higher "level" than Hidan. Which should exemplify why feats are such a poor argument to base ones logic off of. This is doubly true in this case, as Kishimoto outright states that he didn't have enough time to show off all the things he had planned for Hidan and the immortals arc was very clearly one of the most rushed arcs in the entire series; which is why Kishimoto had to put Hidan/Kakuzu's entire back-stories in the DB, when typically we would get some degree of flashbacks or closure to their stories; as we do with pretty much every other arc villain in the series.




All I see is "I have no proof that Hidan can beat Gaara except for numbers". 

Hidan beat Asuma and Asuma has a better databook stats.


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## Turrin (Apr 22, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I still see no proof of Gaara getting weaker after Shukaku was extracted, he still regained his abilities except for the ability to transform into Shukaku.


I see no proof that he didn't. All we saw from Gaara after Shukaku was extract was using a bit of sand to lift Naruto's hand. How can you possibly gleam from that, that Gaara didn't become weaker at all. 



> The name of Gaara's defense is "absolute defense".


Okay and your point is what? Gaara still lost his automatic defense, that was produced by Shukaku. No one is disputing that he still had an "absolute defense".



> Gaara got stronger over the time skip. Sure, in the desert he can create more sand, how much more I don't know, but I do know that he can create a lot even when he's not in the desert.


I'm sure he can create more post-time-skip. But how much more and if it would be even remotely comparable to the things he was doing with the topographic advantage of the desert is something I strongly doubt, as otherwise Kishimoto wouldn't have made a point to specifically indicate the topography advantage Gaara tremendously. 



> All I see is "I have no proof that Hidan can beat Gaara except for numbers".
> 
> Hidan beat Asuma and Asuma has a better databook stats.


So you believe that CE-Gaara is suppose to be seen as a higher "level" than Hidan? And Kishi would have CE-Gaara defeat Hidan?


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## The Undying (Apr 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> First let me preface this by saying i'm only suggesting this as a possible explanation for why Gaara's stat-total does not reflect the level of strength we witnessed in the Deidara battle.




There are alternative explanations though.

Gaara was never particularly versatile in regards to the "eight ninja skills"; his main (and really his only) focus was always his Ninjutsu. What Gaara's stat total means to reflect is his relative lack of overall skills, not so much his lack of combat effectiveness. Every action he takes in battle is entirely through his sand.

That would mean that Hidan is holistically the better ninja and on a higher "level", but Gaara is more likely to succeed in combat because of his arsenal specifically.


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## Dominus (Apr 22, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I see no proof that he didn't. All we saw from Gaara after Shukaku was extract was using a bit of sand to lift Naruto's hand. How can you possibly gleam from that, that Gaara didn't become weaker at all.



Because the first time when we saw him use his abilities after the extraction we saw that he didn't get weaker and we saw that he still has the same abilities he had against Deidara. Are you suggesting that he lost his abilities but then learned them again just after Kishi made the databook? 



> Okay and your point is what? Gaara still lost his automatic defense, that was produced by Shukaku. No one is disputing that he still had an "absolute defense".



[sp=Kankurō explained what Gaara's absolute defense is and then Sasuke said that Gaara still has it][/sp]



> I'm sure he can create more post-time-skip. But how much more and if it would be even remotely comparable to the things he was doing with the topographic advantage of the desert is something I strongly doubt, as otherwise Kishimoto wouldn't have made a point to specifically indicate the topography advantage Gaara tremendously.



[sp=These are the attacks Gaara used against Deidara]
[/sp] 

[sp=How are those attacks so much stronger and bigger than this][/sp]



> So you believe that CE-Gaara is suppose to be seen as a higher "level" than Hidan? And Kishi would have CE-Gaara defeat Hidan?



I don't see why he can't blitz Gaara like Lee without weights and without gates did except Hidan wouldn't kick him, he would cut his head off.

I like how you ignored the "Hidan>Asuma by the manga and Asuma>Hidan by databook stats".


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## Turrin (Apr 23, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Because the first time when we saw him use his abilities after the extraction we saw that he didn't get weaker and we saw that he still has the same abilities he had against Deidara. Are you suggesting that he lost his abilities but then learned them again just after Kishi made the databook?


All we saw from Gaara was using his sand to lift Naruto's hand. So unless you are talking about simply the ability to manipulate sand, I don't know where you getting the idea from that his abilities were the same.



> Kankurō explained what Gaara's absolute defense is and then Sasuke said that Gaara still has it


That's what it was before. Later it became Gaara manually forming sand shields to block once Shukaku was removed.



> These are the attacks Gaara used against Deidara:
> 
> 
> How are those attacks so much stronger and bigger than this


Your comparing apples and oranges. They are different jutsu.



> I don't see why he can't blitz Gaara like Lee without weights and without gates did except Hidan wouldn't kick him, he would cut his head off.


Hidan is not a fast as Lee. 



> I like how you ignored the "Hidan>Asuma by the manga and Asuma>Hidan by databook stats".


I've already addressed this at length. Go back and re-read my prior posts.


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## Dominus (Apr 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> All we saw from Gaara was using his sand to lift Naruto's hand. So unless you are talking about simply the ability to manipulate sand, I don't know where you getting the idea from that his abilities were the same.



I'm talking about the Gaara later in the manga, it just doesn't make sense for him to lose his powers and then learn them suddenly again. His main ability is sand control, he didn't lose that.



> That's what it was before. Later it became Gaara manually forming sand shields to block once Shukaku was removed.



All I care is that he can still use his abilities.



> Your comparing apples and oranges. They are different jutsu.



We are talking about the amount of sand, not techniques, I just showed you that he can use that amount of sand even when he's not in the desert.



> Hidan is not a fast as Lee.



I don't think there is much speed difference between gateless Lee and Hidan.



> I've already addressed this at length. Go back and re-read my prior posts.



You said that they are on the same level and if the fight didn't happen in the manga you would have said that Asuma has more chance of winning the fight, but you are wrong.


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## Turrin (Apr 23, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I'm talking about the Gaara later in the manga, it just doesn't make sense for him to lose his powers and then learn them suddenly again. His main ability is sand control, he didn't lose that.


It makes perfect sense to me that Gaara w/ some of Shukaku's chakra/power empowering him was able to create stronger/larger attacks than he typically could. Than he lost Shukaku so the scale/strength of his attacks were downgraded, until he eventually trained himself to become just as strong (or stronger) without Shukaku's power/chakra. 



> All I care is that he can still use his abilities.


He lost an ability automatic defense.



> We are talking about the amount of sand, not techniques, I just showed you that he can use that amount of sand even when he's not in the desert.


Yes maybe he can use the amount of sand necessary for one or a couple of these techniques, but not all of them. Gaara here had enough sand to create the massive Ryuusa Bakuryuu that dwarfed the one in the picture you posted, Sabaku Rou, the village wide sand shield, and still use his gourd sand freely for attack & defense. The amount of Sand Gaara was able to use is incomparable to what he could utilize outside the desert.



> I don't think there is much speed difference between gateless Lee and Hidan.


CE-Lee Spd = 4 & Hidan Spd = 3.5. So there is a difference. And even if we took say took Rescue Sasuke arc Gaara, he was reacting to Kimi's CS speed, which is higher than a 4.5. 

So I ask again do you really think that Kishi wants use to believe CE (or rescue sasuke arc) Gaara is a higher "level" than Hidan or would stomp Hidan.



> You said that they are on the same level and if the fight didn't happen in the manga you would have said that Asuma has more chance of winning the fight, but you are wrong.


But your wrong. See how that works


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## Dominus (Apr 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> It makes perfect sense to me that Gaara w/ some of Shukaku's chakra/power empowering him was able to create stronger/larger attacks than he typically could. Than he lost Shukaku so the scale/strength of his attacks were downgraded, until he eventually trained himself to become just as strong (or stronger) without Shukaku's power/chakra.



Oh, I see and you have proof. 

Oh, wait no you don't.



> He lost an ability automatic defense.



Whether that is true or not is irrelevant, my point is that he still has the absolute defense which has already been stated in the manga that he has.



> Yes maybe he can use the amount of sand necessary for one or a couple of these techniques, but not all of them. Gaara here had enough sand to create the massive Ryuusa Bakuryuu that dwarfed the one in the picture you posted, Sabaku Rou, the village wide sand shield, and still use his gourd sand freely for attack & defense. The amount of Sand Gaara was able to use is incomparable to what he could utilize outside the desert.



We don't know the amount of sand he can create in Part II when he's not in the desert.



> CE-Lee Spd = 4 & Hidan Spd = 3.5. So there is a difference. And even if we took say took Rescue Sasuke arc Gaara, he was reacting to Kimi's CS speed, which is higher than a 4.5.
> 
> So I ask again do you really think that Kishi wants use to believe CE (or rescue sasuke arc) Gaara is a higher "level" than Hidan or would stomp Hidan.



I thought that we were talking about CE Gaara? 

Again, why are you just using those stupid numbers?
Hidan has a 5 in ninjutsu and he has only shown one technique, Kisame has a 4.5. 



> But your wrong. See how that works



Asuma lost in the manga, but he has the better databook stats, how does that make me wrong when my point is that manga>databook stats?


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## Turrin (Apr 23, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Oh, I see and you have proof.
> 
> Oh, wait no you don't.


Oh I see and you have proof this didn't occur

Oh, wait no you don't 

See how that works 

We are both speculating, except my speculation conforms to what the author presented us in the DB and makes sense with what has been shown as far as Jinchuuriki are concerned. Your speculation is simply based on an attempt to deny the DB, with nothing supporting.



> Whether that is true or not is irrelevant, my point is that he still has the absolute defense which has already been stated in the manga that he has.


And once again this point was never in contention. I was simply illustrating that he lost a "power" when he lost Shukaku.



> We don't know the amount of sand he can create in Part II when he's not in the desert.


True, but the author isn't going to indicate a topographic advantage if it was not a significant thing he wished for us to consider. So I highly doubt that Gaara could ether A)generate that amount of sand on his own or B) do so in a timely fashion where it's going to be viable in most battles.



> I thought that we were talking about CE Gaara?


I'm talking about both Gaara vs Hidan in general. And i'll ask you to stop dodging the question, do you believe the author wants us to think CE-Gaara or Rescue-Sasuke Gaara is on a higher "level" than Hidan and would stomp Hidan in battle.



> Again, why are you just using those stupid numbers?
> Hidan has a 5 in ninjutsu and he has only shown one technique, Kisame has a 4.5.


And your point is what. The Ninjutsu stat measures ones proficiency and knowledge of Ninjutsu. Perhaps:

A) mastering Hidan's Vodoo Jutsu requires greater proficiency in Ninjutsu than mastering the Ninjutsu Kisame utilized
B) Hidan possessed greater knowledge of Ninjutsu than Kisame
C) Hidan has techniques we did not get to see in the manga cannon
D) Kisame increased his skill in Ninjutsu after DBIII was released
E) Some combination of the above 4 possibilities.

Simply put I take the author's beliefs much more seriously, than you asserting something is incorrect  simply based on character's shown arsenals.

With that said even excluding the DB. Lee even back in the CE was highlighted for incredible speed & CQC ability and Kimimaro was also highlighted in this regard. Hidan has never received nearly as much spotlight as these two; in-fact he even called himself the slowest in Akatsuki. So DB not included what are you basing Hidan being as fast or faster than CE-Lee or Kimimaro on?



> Asuma lost in the manga, but he has the better databook stats, how does that make me wrong when my point is that manga>databook stats?


For all reasons I previously cited in this thread, which you've decided to not take into consideration. If you want to address those reasons than I'm more than willing to hear you out. But i'm not going to repeat the same things, when you can just go back and look at my prior posts.


----------



## Dominus (Apr 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Oh I see and you have proof this didn't occur
> 
> Oh, wait no you don't
> 
> ...



You're the one who is saying that something changed, I'm saying that everything stayed the same so how am I the one who is supposed to provide proof? I don't get your logic. 



> And once again this point was never in contention. I was simply illustrating that he lost a "power" when he lost Shukaku.



Absolute defense is consisted of two things, and you are saying that at least one of the two things are missing, excuse me for believing the manga where it says that he still has his absolute defense which means that he didn't lose any power.



> True, but the author isn't going to indicate a topographic advantage if it was not a significant thing he wished for us to consider. So I highly doubt that Gaara could ether A)generate that amount of sand on his own or B) do so in a timely fashion where it's going to be viable in most battles.



There is absolutely no way to know how much sand he can create in Part II when he's not in the desert so I honestly see no point in discussing this.



> I'm talking about both Gaara vs Hidan in general. And i'll ask you to stop dodging the question, do you believe the author wants us to think CE-Gaara or Rescue-Sasuke Gaara is on a higher "level" than Hidan and would stomp Hidan in battle.



I'm only certain that Part II Gaara would defeat Hidan. I already told you that I think Hidan would win against CE Gaara. I'm not sure about Gaara that fought Kimimaro.



> And your point is what.



That databook stats isn't reliable because Kisame is obviously better at ninjutsu than Hidan.



> A) mastering Hidan's Vodoo Jutsu requires greater proficiency in Ninjutsu than mastering the Ninjutsu Kisame utilized



Aside from the fact that it doesn't sound logical at all, if that is true why are you judging who would win in a fight that way. The databook then only shows how hard it is to master some techniques not how strong they are, that has nothing to do with who would win in a battle.



> B) Hidan possessed greater knowledge of Ninjutsu than Kisame



This has nothing to do with abilities so why would you then use this to say who would win in a fight.



> C) Hidan has techniques we did not get to see in the manga cannon



We saw him fight in 2~3 battles and he showed just one technique. That either indicates that he can't use any other jutsu or they are simply so weak that he didn't think it would be useful to use them.



> D) Kisame increased his skill in Ninjutsu after DBIII was released



Even with the abilities he had then I don't see him being worse than Hidan at ninjutsu.



> E) Some combination of the above 4 possibilities.



This is also one of the reasons the databook stats is unreliable, even you don't know what it measures. 



> With that said even excluding the DB. Lee even back in the CE was highlighted for incredible speed & CQC ability and Kimimaro was also highlighted in this regard. Hidan has never received nearly as much spotlight as these two; in-fact he even called himself the slowest in Akatsuki. So DB not included what are you basing Hidan being as fast or faster than CE-Lee or Kimimaro on?



The fact that he's the slowest member in the Akatsuki doesn't mean that he's slow just like how for example if Tsunade or old Hiruzen is the weakest Hokage doesn't mean that they are weak.

He could keep up with Asuma and Kakashi. Taking into account his portrayal I don't think that Hidan would have much trouble beating Gaara when chūnin-level shinobi (Sasuke,Lee) could hurt him and he's using attacks that could physically hurt him just like they did.



> For all reasons I previously cited in this thread, which you've decided to not take into consideration. If you want to address those reasons than I'm more than willing to hear you out. But i'm not going to repeat the same things, when you can just go back and look at my prior posts.



From your previous post all I saw was that you think that they are on the same level.

Lets look at your judging of Deidara vs. Hidan. You said Deidara wins 8/10 or 9/10. You would have said the same about Asuma and Hidan if the fight didn't happen in the manga, but that is clearly wrong because Hidan>Asuma.

Our opinions differ and the way this is going it's obviously not going to change.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 23, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> You're the one who is saying that something changed, I'm saying that everything stayed the same so how am I the one who is supposed to provide proof? I don't get your logic.
> .


Just because your position is that nothing changed, does not make your position any less speculative than mine.



> Absolute defense is consisted of two things, and you are saying that at least one of the two things are missing, excuse me for believing the manga where it says that he still has his absolute defense which means that he didn't lose any power.


Than your practicing selective reading as the manga also tells us that Gaara's automatic defense comes from Shukaku. 



> There is absolutely no way to know how much sand he can create in Part II when he's not in the desert so I honestly see no point in discussing this.


Use common sense. Why would the author indicate a topographic advantage if it in actuality was meaningless. 



> I'm only certain that Part II Gaara would defeat Hidan. I already told you that I think Hidan would win against CE Gaara. I'm not sure about Gaara that fought Kimimaro.


This is once again dodging the question. Please answer do you think Kishimoto wants us to percieve any incarnation of Part I Gaara being on a higher "level" than Hidan? And why your at it please tell me why you think PII Gaara would beat Hidan.



> That databook stats isn't reliable because Kisame is obviously better at ninjutsu than Hidan.


No offense, but I take the author's opinion over yours; 10/10 times.



> Aside from the fact that it doesn't sound logical at all, if that is true why are you judging who would win in a fight that way. The databook then only shows how hard it is to master some techniques not how strong they are, that has nothing to do with who would win in a battle.


No it shows how proficient and knowledgeable someone is at Ninjutsu, which has everything to do with who would win in a fight. 



> This has nothing to do with abilities so why would you then use this to say who would win in a fight.


Greater knowledge of different Ninjutsu techniques has nothing to do with who would win in a fight 



> We saw him fight in 2~3 battles and he showed just one technique. That either indicates that he can't use any other jutsu or they are simply so weak that he didn't think it would be useful to use them.


We've seen plenty of people fight in 2 battles and than pull out other useful techniques. In Hidan's case the author even says he had more abilities planned for Hidan he never had time to show.



> Even with the abilities he had then I don't see him being worse than Hidan at ninjutsu.


What Ninjutsu did Kisame show before DBIII's release that you think is better than Hidan's Voodoo Jutsu?



> This is also one of the reasons the databook stats is unreliable, even you don't know what it measures.


Depends how you use it. If your trying to determine thee specific reasons Hidan is better at Ninjutsu than DBIII-Kisame, than yeah DB isn't going to tell you that. However if you just trying to find out who is better DBIII is perfectly reliable in that regard.



> The fact that he's the slowest member in the Akatsuki doesn't mean that he's slow just like how for example if Tsunade or old Hiruzen is the weakest Hokage doesn't mean that they are weak.


Okay and your point is what? I didn't say Hidan was slow, I said his speed has never been highlighted to a similar extent as Lee's or Kimi's; therefore I do not know where you getting the idea from that Hidan can blitz past Part I Gaara's Sand defenses.



> He could keep up with Asuma and Kakashi. Taking into account his portrayal I don't think that Hidan would have much trouble beating Gaara when chūnin-level shinobi (Sasuke,Lee) could hurt him and he's using attacks that could physically hurt him just like they did.


Just because Sasuke and Lee are "Chuunin-level" doesn't mean they are automatically inferior to someone of higher rank or pedigree in every single area. Sakura was "Chuunin-level" at the start of Part II, but her medical Ninjutsu was already better than a highly skilled Jonin like Chiyo. 

In CE's Lee's case, even Kakashi states that Lee is "fast" and even with Lee's weights removed Lee couldn't land a scratch on CE Gaara. Heck even when Lee opens some of the initial Gates he still couldn't scratch Gaara. Same-thing when Sasuke was using similar speed to Lee. Thee only time Lee was able to get past Gaara's defenses was with the speed of 5th-Gate .

So your going to have to demonstrate that Hidan has speed > 5th Gate Lee.



> From your previous post all I saw was that you think that they are on the same level.
> 
> Lets look at your judging of Deidara vs. Hidan. You said Deidara wins 8/10 or 9/10. You would have said the same about Asuma and Hidan if the fight didn't happen in the manga, but that is clearly wrong because Hidan>Asuma.


I said Deidara would beat Hidan 8/10 to 9/10 times because I was assuming Deidara had knowledge on Hidan's Voodoo Technique from his time in Akatsuki. If he doesn't have knowledge on that I'd only give Deidara 6/10 to 7/10 times. 

As for Asuma and Hidan. I'd given Asuma the similar odds, depending on whether he has knowledge or not of Hidan's Voodoo Technique.

As for why Asuma lost to Hidan in the manga, I'll quote Dr.White because he said it the best (also don't feel like digging through the thread to find my old post which says basically the same thing):



Dr. White said:


> Hidan blocks Asuma's distraction, and counteracts to which asuma dodges and gets caught out of the gate by 3 chunin. Not showing much more than Jonin level talent there, also displays he is extremely rash (albeit his ability allows it.); had he been alone that was game right there
> 
> Meanwhile Kakuzu the far more superior ninja present (who hyped Asuma) stopped in his assualt of Shikamaru to Asuma, before being told not to interfere.
> 
> ...



As for Hidan > Asuma in the manga, I don't see where your getting that from ether. Kakuzu openly says a member of the 12 Guardians is a threat to him, let alone a threat to weaker Hidan. That's the only comparison we get between Asuma and Hidan, outside of the data-book and their duel, which as Dr. White explained is not very indicative of a normal 1v1 fight between Asuma and Hidan, due to the situation demanding Asuma act rashly.


----------



## Dominus (Apr 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Just because your position is that nothing changed, does not make your position any less speculative than mine.
> 
> 
> Than your practicing selective reading as the manga also tells us that Gaara's automatic defense comes from Shukaku.
> ...



We're just running around in circles with these points, I think it's best to agree to disagree.



> This is once again dodging the question. Please answer do you think Kishimoto wants us to percieve any incarnation of Part I Gaara being on a higher "level" than Hidan? And why your at it please tell me why you think PII Gaara would beat Hidan.



How am I dodging your question, I've already answered it a couple of times. I told you that both I and (most likely) Kishimoto think that Hidan is stronger than CE Gaara.

I think that Part II Gaara could beat him because he has shown to be able to react to Kimimaro, he also showed the ability to use more sand and he also showed the ability to fly. I don't see what Hidan could do if Gaara just went into the air and started using sand tsunamis.



> No offense, but I take the author's opinion over yours; 10/10 times
> 
> You clearly don't even know what the databook measures so how do you know the author's opinion?
> 
> ...



How exactly is knowing what some techniques do that important? If someone has seen more techniques and knows more about ninjutsu that doesn't automatically mean that they are better at ninjutsu. Naruto doesn't understand a lot of stuff and doesn't really have much knowledge on some techniques yet he is one of the strongest ninjas. Kisame showed more techniques, both water and earth element techniques and even before the 3rd databook I see his techniques as more useful and better than Hidan's who has only shown one technique. And we haven't seen much of Kisame either and when he fought Team Gai, he had only 30% of his chakra. If the databook is all about how knowledgeable you are about techniques then how is it good to determine who would win in a fight, more knowledgeable=/=stronger and better. 



> Okay and your point is what? I didn't say Hidan was slow, I said his speed has never been highlighted to a similar extent as Lee's or Kimi's; therefore I do not know where you getting the idea from that Hidan can blitz past Part I Gaara's Sand defenses.
> 
> Just because Sasuke and Lee are "Chuunin-level" doesn't mean they are automatically inferior to someone of higher rank or pedigree in every single area. Sakura was "Chuunin-level" at the start of Part II, but her medical Ninjutsu was already better than a highly skilled Jonin like Chiyo.
> 
> In CE's Lee's case, even Kakashi states that Lee is "fast" and even with Lee's weights removed Lee couldn't land a scratch on CE Gaara. Heck even when Lee opens some of the initial Gates he still couldn't scratch Gaara. Same-thing when Sasuke was using similar speed to Lee. Thee only time Lee was able to get past Gaara's defenses was with the speed of 5th-Gate .



Lee was said to be fast because it's unusual for a genin to be that fast. Lee was able to kick Gaara without using gates, I don't see why Hidan couldn't do the same except he would do it with his blade.



> I said Deidara would beat Hidan 8/10 to 9/10 times because I was assuming Deidara had knowledge on Hidan's Voodoo Technique from his time in Akatsuki. If he doesn't have knowledge on that I'd only give Deidara 6/10 to 7/10 times.



You are either lying or didn't read the OP, there are two scenarios and in one of them they have no knowledge and in the second one they have full knowledge.



> As for Asuma and Hidan. I'd given Asuma the similar odds, depending on whether he has knowledge or not of Hidan's Voodoo Technique.
> 
> As for why Asuma lost to Hidan in the manga, I'll quote Dr.White because he said it the best (also don't feel like digging through the thread to find my old post which says basically the same thing):
> 
> As for Hidan > Asuma in the manga, I don't see where your getting that from ether. Kakuzu openly says a member of the 12 Guardians is a threat to him, let alone a threat to weaker Hidan. That's the only comparison we get between Asuma and Hidan, outside of the data-book and their duel, which as Dr. White explained is not very indicative of a normal 1v1 fight between Asuma and Hidan, due to the situation demanding Asuma act rashly.



[sp=Hidan would have beaten Asuma here if it wasn't for Shikamaru]


[/sp]


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## The Undying (Apr 24, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> If the databook is all about how knowledgeable you are about techniques then how is it good to determine who would win in a fight, more knowledgeable=/=stronger and better.




The Ninjutsu stat measures both knowledge and proficiency, and since neither of those pertain to jutsu quantity or power _per se_, it's not too far-fetched to believe that Hidan is superior to base Kisame in that category.

And while I don't necessarily advocate Kisame losing to Hidan in a Ninjutsu fight, the manga itself does note that an "expert with a pebble can still beat a novice with a shuriken". There is certainly a level of importance in regards to proficiency.


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## Dominus (Apr 24, 2014)

The Undying said:


> The Ninjutsu stat measures both knowledge and proficiency, and since neither of those pertain to jutsu quantity or power _per se_, it's not too far-fetched to believe that Hidan is superior to base Kisame in that category.
> 
> And while I don't necessarily advocate Kisame losing to Hidan in a Ninjutsu fight, the manga itself does note that an "expert with a pebble can still beat a novice with a shuriken". There is certainly a level of importance in regards to proficiency.



Where exactly is it stated what databook stats measure?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 24, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Where exactly is it stated what databook stats measure?



In the databok.

Ninjutsu : Ninjutsu knowledge and proficiency. Same for taijutsu, genjutsu and seals.
Intelligence : Knowledge and IQ
Speed : Swiftness of movements and reaction speed

Stamina and strength are self explanatory.


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## The Undying (Apr 24, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Where exactly is it stated what databook stats measure?






It even prefers to call them "skill levels" instead of "power levels".


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## Dominus (Apr 24, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> In the databok.
> 
> Ninjutsu : Ninjutsu knowledge and proficiency. Same for taijutsu, genjutsu and seals.
> Intelligence : Knowledge and IQ
> ...





The Undying said:


> It even prefers to call them "skill levels" instead of "power levels".



Thanks. **


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## Turrin (Apr 24, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> How am I dodging your question, I've already answered it a couple of times. I told you that both I and (most likely) Kishimoto think that Hidan is stronger than CE Gaara.


Okay, but you didn't answer about Rescue Sasuke-Arc Gaara.



> I think that Part II Gaara could beat him because he has shown to be able to react to Kimimaro, he also showed the ability to use more sand and he also showed the ability to fly. I don't see what Hidan could do if Gaara just went into the air and started using sand tsunamis.


The thing is Gaara had all of the abilities your referencing back in the rescue Sasuke arc; so based on your logic RS-Garaa > Hidan. I honestly struggle to imagine the author really wants that to be our take away as far as these characters are concerned.



> How exactly is knowing what some techniques do that important? If someone has seen more techniques and knows more about ninjutsu that doesn't automatically mean that they are better at ninjutsu.


Are you asking me why knowledge of different Ninjutsu techniques is important? I mean Hidan is the prime example, he is much more dangerous when the enemy does not have knowledge of his ritual than when they do.



> . Naruto doesn't understand a lot of stuff and doesn't really have much knowledge on some techniques yet he is one of the strongest ninjas


Naruto has tons of knowledge on different Ninjutsu techniques at this point. Just look at the amount of Ninjutsu technique him and clones witnessed in the war



> Kisame showed more techniques, both water and earth element techniques and even before the 3rd databook I see his techniques as more useful and better than Hidan's who has only shown one technique. And we haven't seen much of Kisame either and when he fought Team Gai, he had only 30% of his chakra.


All of this is just your personally preference. You prefer Kisame's Ninjutsu over Hidan's. However your preference or what you think should be better, is not a good case to disregard what the author states, at all.



> If the databook is all about how knowledgeable you are about techniques then how is it good to determine who would win in a fight, more knowledgeable=/=stronger and better.


It measures knowledge and proficiency 



> Lee was said to be fast because it's unusual for a genin to be that fast. Lee was able to kick Gaara without using gates, I don't see why Hidan couldn't do the same except he would do it with his blade.


His kick did nothing though as Gaara's Sand still defended the blow. Again thee only time Lee got past Gaara's defenses to do any type of damage was with 5th-Gate.



> You are either lying or didn't read the OP, there are two scenarios and in one of them they have no knowledge and in the second one they have full knowledge.


I didn't read the OP completely 



> Hidan would have beaten Asuma here if it wasn't for Shikamaru:


And your point is what? Asuma was specifically acting rashly there to draw Hidan into a shadow bind, and it worked, leading to Hidan being defeated. Suddenly Asuma is penalized for that?

Simply put your confusing how Asuma would fight Hidan 1v1 w/o Kakuzu there, and how Asuma fought Hidan 2v1 w/ Kakuzu there. The way Asuma would approach each would greatly differ.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 25, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Okay, but you didn't answer about Rescue Sasuke-Arc Gaara.
> 
> 
> The thing is Gaara had all of the abilities your referencing back in the rescue Sasuke arc; so based on your logic RS-Garaa > Hidan. I honestly struggle to imagine the author really wants that to be our take away as far as these characters are concerned.
> ...




Yes, if it was 1v1 Asuma would all of a sudden get more skilled in taijutsu


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## Dominus (Apr 25, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Okay, but you didn't answer about Rescue Sasuke-Arc Gaara.



I answered that too, but I said that I'm not completely sure.



> The thing is Gaara had all of the abilities your referencing back in the rescue Sasuke arc; so based on your logic RS-Garaa > Hidan. I honestly struggle to imagine the author really wants that to be our take away as far as these characters are concerned.



[sp=If Gaara managed to get Hidan like he got Kimimaro, Hidan would be crushed]



[/sp]



> Are you asking me why knowledge of different Ninjutsu techniques is important? I mean Hidan is the prime example, he is much more dangerous when the enemy does not have knowledge of his ritual than when they do.



In such cases it is useful, but when we are talking about overall knowledge of techniques in a lot of cases when some ninjas are on a different level from the ones they are fighting, knowledge of ninjutsu won't help them. I'm not sure whether you understand what I'm trying to say, for example some shinobi know a lot about eye techniques and elemental techniques, but that isn't going to help them when they are fighting someone who has some crazy techniques that they have never seen before. Like with Kakashi, he's very knowledgeable but he still didn't know about Kakuzu's abilties, Pain's abilties...



> Naruto has tons of knowledge on different Ninjutsu techniques at this point. Just look at the amount of Ninjutsu technique him and clones witnessed in the war



Yet he still didn't know who invented his most used technique nor what it was created for. 



> All of this is just your personally preference. You prefer Kisame's Ninjutsu over Hidan's. However your preference or what you think should be better, is not a good case to disregard what the author states, at all.



I simply think that Kisame has more techniques and that his techniques are more useful and since that's the case he can create more counters to attacks which is one of the most important things in battles.



> His kick did nothing though as Gaara's Sand still defended the blow. Again thee only time Lee got past Gaara's defenses to do any type of damage was with 5th-Gate.



I don't think his sand can protect him if Hidan used his scythe especially since I believe Hidan is physically stronger than Lee.



> And your point is what? Asuma was specifically acting rashly there to draw Hidan into a shadow bind, and it worked, leading to Hidan being defeated. Suddenly Asuma is penalized for that?
> 
> Simply put your confusing how Asuma would fight Hidan 1v1 w/o Kakuzu there, and how Asuma fought Hidan 2v1 w/ Kakuzu there. The way Asuma would approach each would greatly differ.



I'm not sure what you're talking about, Kakuzu didn't interfere at all until Shikamaru caught Hidan with his jutsu and Asuma cut his head off. They knew that only Hidan was going to fight them, because when Kakuzu got there Hidan told him not to touch them and Kakuzu said "fine", then Asuma told Izumo and Kotetsu to keep an eye on Kakuzu just in case while guarding Shikamaru, their plan was for Asuma to fight Hidan while Shikamaru tries to catch him with his jutsu and then Asuma cuts his head off. Yes, their plan kinda succeeded (kinda because Hidan didn't die), but the point is that Asuma from the beginning thought he needed Shikamaru's help and he did need it because he would have died if it wasn't for Shikamaru, like I showed you earlier. When he fought Hidan he used ninjutsu and taijutsu, that is his fighting style.


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## RedChidori (Apr 25, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Good point, still he could get Third Kazekage to shield him with Iron Sand, Gaara style.
> Or get him up in the air with Deidara.
> But worst case scenario they all die but Deidara, so the Artists win by default.



This .


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## Turrin (Apr 25, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I answered that too, but I said that I'm not completely sure.
> .


Okay, I just don't see how someone can suggest that the author wants us to view any Part I incarnation of Gaara above Hidan. 



> If Gaara managed to get Hidan like he got Kimimaro, Hidan would be crushed


Not sure why your trying to prove this to me based on "feats", when I already said based on "feats" CE-Gaara would beat Hidan. My point however has always been the unreliability of "feats" in this instance, I.E. while by feats Part I Gaara would beat Hidan, I do not think Kishi wants us to believe any Part I Rookie is on par or stronger than an S-Rank Missing Ninja and Akatsuki member. So perhaps the "feats", especially in this instance where the author admits he had more planned for Hidan he didn't have time to show, are not truly indicative of who would win this fight and/or who is the better overall ninja.



> In such cases it is useful, but when we are talking about overall knowledge of techniques in a lot of cases when some ninjas are on a different level from the ones they are fighting, knowledge of ninjutsu won't help them.


Yet we've seen knowledge help Ninja defeat those who are otherwise above their "level". Example: Jiriaya whose inferior to Pain, can defeat Pain with knowledge. 



> I'm not sure whether you understand what I'm trying to say, for example some shinobi know a lot about eye techniques and elemental techniques, but that isn't going to help them when they are fighting someone who has some crazy techniques that they have never seen before. Like with Kakashi, he's very knowledgeable but he still didn't know about Kakuzu's abilties, Pain's abilties...


If you don't have knowledge of the enemies techniques, knowledge of how other techniques work can still be useful in deciphering them. We saw that with Hiruzen being able to decipher Obito's black element on the basis of his knowledge of Jinton. Jiraiya/Ma/Pa were able to decipher how Pain's shared vision works based on their knowledge of other techniques/abilities. And so on.

Of course this isn't as good as just having knowledge of that specific ability, but it still helps tremendously and characters with a 5 in Ninjutsu are probably going to have knowledge of that specific ability anyway, unless it's exceedingly rare. 



> Yet he still didn't know who invented his most used technique nor what it was created for


He did know why KB was invented, Kakashi explained it to him in the Wind-Arc. However ultimately this is a silly point to make as if Naruto went up against Kage-Bushin in a fight he'd recognize the Jutsu and know how to respond.



> simply think that Kisame has more techniques and that his techniques are more useful and since that's the case he can create more counters to attacks which is one of the most important things in battles.


I'm aware what you think, but that should not supersede what the author thinks. I think a-lot of abilities can be used better or should be better than they are in the manga, but if the author tells me that  certain character is better, I have to accept it, as otherwise i'm going to come to a faulty conclusion within the context of the manga.



> I don't think his sand can protect him if Hidan used his scythe especially since I believe Hidan is physically stronger than Lee


Why do you think Hidan is stronger than CE Lee, especially one whose opened a few Gates? I know why I don't, because CE Lee had only a .5 less than Hidan in strength and after opening a few Gates to that difference was probably mitigated. But you don't use DB numbers, so where are you getting your info from?

As for Hidan's scythe Gaara's sand has never had any issue blocking weapons, so don't see why that would change anything. Now we could speculate that Hidan's scythe is imbued with some special properties like Orochimaru's Ksunagi Sword, but there are no "feats" as far as that's concerned. So if your going strictly off "feats" than that is not an argument you can make. If we disregard "feats" than i'm perfect willing to believe the possibility that Hidan's scythe has special properties, but than your entire argument crumbles as you must admit that Hidan's unseen abilities could potentially be what's placing him above Part II Gaara post Shukaku extraction as well.



> I'm not sure what you're talking about, Kakuzu didn't interfere at all until Shikamaru caught Hidan with his jutsu and Asuma cut his head off. They knew that only Hidan was going to fight them, because when Kakuzu got there Hidan told him not to touch them and Kakuzu said "fine", then Asuma told Izumo and Kotetsu to keep an eye on Kakuzu just in case while guarding Shikamaru, their plan was for Asuma to fight Hidan while Shikamaru tries to catch him with his jutsu and then Asuma cuts his head off. Yes, their plan kinda succeeded (kinda because Hidan didn't die), but the point is that Asuma from the beginning thought he needed Shikamaru's help and he did need it because he would have died if it wasn't for Shikamaru, like I showed you earlier. When he fought Hidan he used ninjutsu and taijutsu, that is his fighting style.


I'm talking about the fact that Asuma is indicated to have fought Hidan differently than he normally would do to Kakuzu's presence.


----------



## Dominus (Apr 25, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Okay, I just don't see how someone can suggest that the author wants us to view any Part I incarnation of Gaara above Hidan.
> 
> Not sure why your trying to prove this to me based on "feats", when I already said based on "feats" CE-Gaara would beat Hidan. My point however has always been the unreliability of "feats" in this instance, I.E. while by feats Part I Gaara would beat Hidan, I do not think Kishi wants us to believe any Part I Rookie is on par or stronger than an S-Rank Missing Ninja and Akatsuki member. So perhaps the "feats", especially in this instance where the author admits he had more planned for Hidan he didn't have time to show, are not truly indicative of who would win this fight and/or who is the better overall ninja.



I don't view any version of Part I Gaara above Hidan mostly because of Hidan being an Akatsuki member however that doesn't mean Gaara can't win in a fight againts him since I think that he's a bad match up for him. In a thread where I would make a tier list, I would most likely place Hidan above Gaara. 



> Yet we've seen knowledge help Ninja defeat those who are otherwise above their "level". Example: Jiriaya whose inferior to Pain, can defeat Pain with knowledge.



Pain without all the paths around isn't on an entirely different level from Jiraiya.



> If you don't have knowledge of the enemies techniques, knowledge of how other techniques work can still be useful in deciphering them. We saw that with Hiruzen being able to decipher Obito's black element on the basis of his knowledge of Jinton. Jiraiya/Ma/Pa were able to decipher how Pain's shared vision works based on their knowledge of other techniques/abilities. And so on.



Yet Hiruzen got stomped against Obito and Pa died against Pain, not that knowledge can't be useful I simply value abilities and skill more.



> He did know why KB was invented, Kakashi explained it to him in the Wind-Arc. However ultimately this is a silly point to make as if Naruto went up against Kage-Bushin in a fight he'd recognize the Jutsu and know how to respond.



Yeah, he didn't know about it until Kakashi told him, that's why I said didn't know about it, anyway this was more of a joke.



> I'm aware what you think, but that should not supersede what the author thinks. I think a-lot of abilities can be used better or should be better than they are in the manga, but if the author tells me that  certain character is better, I have to accept it, as otherwise i'm going to come to a faulty conclusion within the context of the manga.



I simply think that what we see in the manga is more important than what databook stats show because then everything becomes even more speculative and we can't possibly know the way author thinks.



> Why do you think Hidan is stronger than CE Lee, especially one whose opened a few Gates? I know why I don't, because CE Lee had only a .5 less than Hidan in strength and after opening a few Gates to that difference was probably mitigated. But you don't use DB numbers, so where are you getting your info from?



I'm talking about Lee who wasn't using gates. Lee's kick was blocked by Temari.



> As for Hidan's scythe Gaara's sand has never had any issue blocking weapons, so don't see why that would change anything. Now we could speculate that Hidan's scythe is imbued with some special properties like Orochimaru's Ksunagi Sword, but there are no "feats" as far as that's concerned. So if your going strictly off "feats" than that is not an argument you can make. If we disregard "feats" than i'm perfect willing to believe the possibility that Hidan's scythe has special properties, but than your entire argument crumbles as you must admit that Hidan's unseen abilities could potentially be what's placing him above Part II Gaara post Shukaku extraction as well.



It doesn't have to have special properties, Hidan shouldn't have a problem wounding Gaara with his blade because it has more chances of getting past Gaara thin layer of sand since it involves piercing, his blade is made of metal and Hidan should be physically stronger than Lee. I don't get why this is so hard for you to understand, picture Hidan's scythe instead of Lee's leg, I don't see why Hidan would have a problem getting a little blood from Gaara with that kind of attack.
[sp][/sp]



> I'm talking about the fact that Asuma is indicated to have fought Hidan differently than he normally would do to Kakuzu's presence.



His plan didn't involve Kakuzu at all, he was focusing only on Hidan.


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## Turrin (Apr 25, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I don't view any version of Part I Gaara above Hidan mostly because of Hidan being an Akatsuki member however that doesn't mean Gaara can't win in a fight againts him since I think that he's a bad match up for him. In a thread where I would make a tier list, I would most likely place Hidan above Gaara.


If you want to call Part I Gaara a bad match up for Hidan, while still being inferior "level" wise, than why can't the same thing be said for Part II Gaara post Shukaku extraction?  Your essentially saying let's ignore "feats" when it comes to Hidan's "level" in relation to Part I Gaara, but than asserting DBIII is wrong about Hidan's overall "level" in relation to PII Gaara because of "feats". That doesn't seem very fair to me.



> Pain without all the paths around isn't on an entirely different level from Jiraiya.


Pain had all the paths, so i'm not sure what your referring to.



> Yet Hiruzen got stomped against Obito and Pa died against Pain,


Sure because there was an absolute monstrous gap in strength in both instance. Doesn't mean knowledge wasn't extremely useful.



> not that knowledge can't be useful I simply value abilities and skill more.


Both go hand in hand. Your not going to have someone who has Juubidara abilities/skill while possessing start of part I Naruto knowledge of Ninjutsu. As you become more proficient with Ninjutsu your going to learn more about it. That's why knowledge and proficiency are measured by the same stat. 



> I simply think that what we see in the manga is more important than what databook stats show because then everything becomes even more speculative and we can't possibly know the way author thinks.


The DB stats tell us what the author is thinking, in terms of who is better at Ninjutsu. 



> I'm talking about Lee who wasn't using gates. Lee's kick was blocked by Temari.


CE Lee also did this: 
Sasuke's desperate ploys.

Also Lee who wasn't using Gates, didn't do anything to Gaara. Even when he opened the first couple of Gates he still couldn't accomplish anything against Gaara's defenses. It took 5th-Gate.



> It doesn't have to have special properties, Hidan shouldn't have a problem wounding Gaara with his blade because it has more chances of getting past Gaara thin layer of sand since it involves piercing, his blade is made of metal and Hidan should be physically stronger than Lee. I don't get why this is so hard for you to understand, picture Hidan's scythe instead of Lee's leg, I don't see why Hidan would have a problem getting a little blood from Gaara with that kind of attack.


Because Gaara's Sand defenses have blocked metal weapons zero diff before.



> His plan didn't involve Kakuzu at all, he was focusing only on Hidan.


His plan did involve Kakuzu. He wanted to kill Hidan as quickly as possible, because he was afraid Kakuzu would get involved. You can't just ignore the fact that Shikkamaru notes that Asuma is fighting much more rashly against Hidan than he normally would.


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## Dominus (Apr 25, 2014)

Turrin said:


> If you want to call Part I Gaara a bad match up for Hidan, while still being inferior "level" wise, than why can't the same thing be said for Part II Gaara post Shukaku extraction?  Your essentially saying let's ignore "feats" when it comes to Hidan's "level" in relation to Part I Gaara, but than asserting DBIII is wrong about Hidan's overall "level" in relation to PII Gaara because of "feats". That doesn't seem very fair to me.



I view Part II Gaara as a Kage-level shinobi while I view Hidan as a jōnin-level shinobi so I think he would win by both portrayal and feats.



> Pain had all the paths, so i'm not sure what your referring to.



Jiraiya didn't fight them all at once. If he had knowledge, the ones he defeated first wouldn't have been revived so Jiraiya would have never gotten to fight all six of them together.



> Sure because there was an absolute monstrous gap in strength in both instance. Doesn't mean knowledge wasn't extremely useful.



Well, yeah that's kind of my point abilities>knowledge.



> Both go hand in hand. Your not going to have someone who has Juubidara abilities/skill while possessing start of part I Naruto knowledge of Ninjutsu. As you become more proficient with Ninjutsu your going to learn more about it. That's why knowledge and proficiency are measured by the same stat.



I'm going to use the Naruto example again , he was already around jōnin-level when it comes to abilities when he didn't even know the basic stuff about elemental ninjutsu and kekkei genkai.



> The DB stats tell us what the author is thinking, in terms of who is better at Ninjutsu.



You and I simply disagree, I say the manga shows how the author thinks and you say the databook stats. 



> CE Lee also did this:
> Sasuke's desperate ploys.
> 
> Also Lee who wasn't using Gates, didn't do anything to Gaara. Even when he opened the first couple of Gates he still couldn't accomplish anything against Gaara's defenses. It took 5th-Gate.
> ...



Hidan's scythe attacks and Lee's kicks aren't really the same kind of attacks because Hidan's attacks involve piercing. Also just to clarify if you didn't understand me, I'm not talking about Hidan breaching through , but . When has CE Gaara's sand blocked weapons made of metal?



> His plan did involve Kakuzu. He wanted to kill Hidan as quickly as possible, because he was afraid Kakuzu would get involved. You can't just ignore the fact that Shikkamaru notes that Asuma is fighting much more rashly against Hidan than he normally would.



He just told Izumo and Kotetsu to keep an eye on him and Shikamaru didn't say anything about Asuma using a different fighting style. Dude, you're just trying to make sense out of the databook stats when they don't make sense.


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## Turrin (Apr 25, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I view Part II Gaara as a Kage-level shinobi while I view Hidan as a jōnin-level shinobi so I think he would win by both portrayal and feats.


Kage just means one of (not necessarily even thee) strongest shinobi in the village. What shinobi stronger than Hidan did Gaara beat out for the title of Kazekage? Sungakure was pretty foddericific at the time, so I wouldn't be surprised if Hidan could also qualify for Kazekage. 



> Jiraiya didn't fight them all at once. If he had knowledge, the ones he defeated first wouldn't have been revived so Jiraiya would have never gotten to fight all six of them together.


Pain says he would have never been able to defeat Jiriaya, if Jiraiya had intel; that really does not sound like a statement that only applies to very specific circumstances.



> Well, yeah that's kind of my point abilities>knowledge.


Problem is if there was an equivalent gap in knowledge, that person's most likely going to loose as well. You can't have an absolutely monstrous gap in ether or your fucked.

But yes a shinobi's ability or proficiency is overall  important than knowledge, because it covers more areas. Knowledge is important when it comes to Nin, Tai, Gen, Hand-Seals, and Intelligence; but someone's proficiency or ability is important when it comes to every single area. So yes someone's proficiency will out weigh knowledge, when speaking holistically, but knowledge is still exceedingly important. Additionally I have no clue how this invalidates stats, as like I just showed the stats values proficiency/ability over knowledge as well. 



> I'm going to use the Naruto example again , he was already around jōnin-level when it comes to abilities when he didn't even know the basic stuff about elemental ninjutsu and kekkei genkai.


What abilities are you talking about and what Naruto are you talking about? 



> You and I simply disagree, I say the manga shows how the author thinks and you say the databook stats.


No I say the manga and DB says what the author thinks. The issue is that manga is many times subjective to the reader. You can view Kisame's Ninjutsu knowledge & proficiency as higher than Hidan, while someone else can view it as the reverse; as the manga does not state which one is better, it just gives us displays from both that we can base opinions of off. So where do we go to settle this, simple, the DB, which tells us the author's opinion; Hidan is better [at least up to DBIII].



> Hidan's scythe attacks and Lee's kicks aren't really the same kind of attacks because Hidan's attacks involve piercing.


Who said they were? You were the one comparing them, in the first place.



> Also just to clarify if you didn't understand me, I'm not talking about Hidan breaching through this, but this.


Well than we run into the issue of whether Hidan is fast enough to get past CE-Gaara's Gourd Sand, which he has not displayed the speed to do. Like wise there is also the issue of Gaara can use Suna Tama if Hidan does end up being faster than he can move his gourd sand in place to guard. Than there is also the Mini Shukaku transformation. There is a-lot to factor in besides just the Suna Armor; only reason Lee got to the point where only Suna Armor mattered is because of 5th-Gate's speed and strength.



> When has CE Gaara's sand blocked weapons made of metal?


"This left eye... I see!"
"This left eye... I see!"
"This left eye... I see!"
"This left eye... I see!"
"This left eye... I see!"
"This left eye... I see!"
"This left eye... I see!"

Also ask yourself why Lee would have to use 5th-Gate and Sasuke would have to use Chidori, if simply attacking with a Kunai and their speed would have been enough to take down CE-Gaara.



> He just told Izumo and Kotetsu to keep an eye on him and Shikamaru didn't say anything about Asuma using a different fighting style. Dude, you're just trying to make sense out of the databook stats when they don't make sense.


"This left eye... I see!"

Shikkamaru (to Asuma), "That's too risky, it's not like you"

I've already posted this before, so I'd appreciate you actually read what I posted before accusing me of making shit up to make sense of the DB stats.


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## Soul (Apr 25, 2014)

Sasori and Deidara win with moderate difficulty.
Kakuzu is the only threat, and both Sasori and Deidara can handle him.

Sandaime Kazekage can easily kill the hearts, and Kakuzu shouldn't be able to get near an airborne opponent.



Turrin said:


> And your point is? Asuma, Hidan, and Kakuzu are all around the same general "level", its not surprising that Hidan can pull out a win on Asuma. However I have no issue believing that Asuma is a holistically better Ninja than Hidan.



I can't believe you are even arguing that.


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## Dominus (Apr 25, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Kage just means one of (not necessarily even thee) strongest shinobi in the village. What shinobi stronger than Hidan did Gaara beat out for the title of Kazekage? Sungakure was pretty foddericific at the time, so I wouldn't be surprised if Hidan could also qualify for Kazekage.



I said I consider Gaara Kage-level, not just because he is a Kage, but because I think he's on that level.



> Pain says he would have never been able to defeat Jiriaya, if Jiraiya had intel; that really does not sound like a statement that only applies to very specific circumstances.



Yeah, it does because he said he would've been defeated if Jiraiya had knowledge, he was obviously talking about the battle they just had.



> Problem is if there was an equivalent gap in knowledge, that person's most likely going to loose as well. You can't have an absolutely monstrous gap in ether or your fucked.
> 
> But yes a shinobi's ability or proficiency is overall  important than knowledge, because it covers more areas. Knowledge is important when it comes to Nin, Tai, Gen, Hand-Seals, and Intelligence; but someone's proficiency or ability is important when it comes to every single area. So yes someone's proficiency will out weigh knowledge, when speaking holistically, but knowledge is still exceedingly important. Additionally I have no clue how this invalidates stats, as like I just showed the stats values proficiency/ability over knowledge as well.



Well then we pretty much agree.



> What abilities are you talking about and what Naruto are you talking about?



I'm talking about Naruto from the Hidan and Kakuzu Arc. When he was training with Kakashi  and  seemed new to him. He heard about kekkei genkai, but didn't know what exactly it means nor that he fought a kekkei genkai user.



> No I say the manga and DB says what the author thinks. The issue is that manga is many times subjective to the reader. You can view Kisame's Ninjutsu knowledge & proficiency as higher than Hidan, while someone else can view it as the reverse; as the manga does not state which one is better, it just gives us displays from both that we can base opinions of off. So where do we go to settle this, simple, the DB, which tells us the author's opinion; Hidan is better [at least up to DBIII].



I'm saying that manga and the databook stats show sometimes things differently, like with Asuma and Hidan, but you see that differently.



> Who said they were? You were the one comparing them, in the first place.



I just said picture Hidan hitting Gaara with his scythe instead of Lee kicking him so you would understand what I'm trying to say more easily.



> kill him
> kill him
> kill him
> kill him
> ...



You either ignored or missed what I wrote in the previous post, I said "just to clarify if you didn't understand me, I'm not talking about Hidan breaching through , but ". All of those attacks were blocked by Gaara's *shield* not *armor*. They are two different things. I think that Hidan has the speed to get past Gaara's shield and the strenght and weapon to get past his armor (both points because he clashed with Kakashi and Asuma and because I simply think that he was portrayed as someone who could do it).



> Well than we run into the issue of whether Hidan is fast enough to get past CE-Gaara's Gourd Sand, which he has not displayed the speed to do. Like wise there is also the issue of Gaara can use Suna Tama if Hidan does end up being faster than he can move his gourd sand in place to guard. Than there is also the Mini Shukaku transformation. There is a-lot to factor in besides just the Suna Armor; only reason Lee got to the point where only Suna Armor mattered is because of 5th-Gate's speed and strength.



Oh, for the thousandth time Lee managed to kick Gaara without using gates (I even showed you a panel) he just couldn't break through . In fact,  it but he just stood there and  again. 



> kill him
> 
> Shikkamaru (to Asuma), "That's too risky, it's not like you"
> 
> I've already posted this before, so I'd appreciate you actually read what I posted before accusing me of making shit up to make sense of the DB stats.



I said fighting style, Asuma hadn't even began to fight then. If you're in a hurry you're somehow in a disadvantage now and you're weaker? What kind of logic is that? I can't believe how differently we are thinking. Would Asuma suddenly be able to defeat Hidan somehow if he wasn't in a hurry? He clashed with him but he could touch him while Hidan got his blood. Then he used his ninjutsu and it was basically over then when Hidan got in his circle. What would he have done differently if he wasn't in a hurry? Why would he make a strategy about him fighting Hidan and Shikamaru catching him off guard while they are fighting if he was stronger than Hidan.


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## Turrin (Apr 25, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> I said I consider Gaara Kage-level, not just because he is a Kage, but because I think he's on that level.


He is on that "level" because he was elected Kazekage. Anyone elected Kazekage would technically be "Kage-level". The question is does that put him above Hidan; I think Hidan would also easily be in the running for Kazekage, based on how weak Sungakure had become. 

Now if you want to ignore the in cannon definition of "Kage-level" and create your own definition, than once again I'll ask what makes Gaara "Kage-level" and Hidan not; according to you?



> Yeah, it does because he said he would've been defeated if Jiraiya had knowledge, he was obviously talking about the battle they just had.


No he didn't say he would have been defeated had Jiriaya had knowledge. He said he could have never beaten Jiraiya, if Jiriaya had knowledge, period. 



> Well then we pretty much agree.


And so does the DB....



> I'm talking about Naruto from the Hidan and Kakuzu Arc. When he was training with Kakashi elemental ninjutsu and kekkei genkai seemed new to him. He heard about kekkei genkai, but didn't know what exactly it means nor that he fought a kekkei genkai user.


So he didn't know about one aspect of Ninjutsu. He still had whiteness tons of Ninjutsu techniques up until that point, considering the events of Part I. Additionally in terms of Ninjutsu skill Naruto was not >= Kakashi. In terms of overall skill sure, but we already covered that, you, I, and the DB rates overall skill more than knowledge.



> I'm saying that manga and the databook stats show sometimes things differently, like with Asuma and Hidan, but you see that differently.


And i'm saying they don't show things differently. It's just your opinion that things should be different. But your opinion simply does not matter in comparison to the author's; no offense.



> You either ignored or missed what I wrote in the previous post, I said "just to clarify if you didn't understand me, I'm not talking about Hidan breaching through this, but this". All of those attacks were blocked by Gaara's shield not armor. They are two different things. I think that Hidan has the speed to get past Gaara's shield and the strenght and weapon to get past his armor (both points because he clashed with Kakashi and Asuma and because I simply think that he was portrayed as someone who could do it).


And I think you must have missed my point where I said it's not as simple as just being able to get by Gaara's automatic defense. He also has techniques like Suna Tama, Partial Shukaku Transformation, Suna Bushin, and Flying Sand. Hidan has to be able to get past all of those things to be able to damage CE Gaara; hence why I showed panels of Gaara blocking weapons with those techniques.

Once again if it was as simple as having Lee/Sasuke "level" speed (Which Hidan doesn't even have according to the author) and a bladed weapon, than Sasuke/Lee would have owned Gaara, instead of needing Chidori and 5th-Gate to deal any damage.



> Oh, for the thousandth time Lee managed to kick Gaara without using gates (I even showed you a panel) he just couldn't break through this. In fact, he did break through it but he just stood there and basically let Gaara create his armor again.


And if Lee would have pulled out a weapon, than Gaara probably would have upped his defenses utilizing one of the above methods I already alluded to. That is assuming an bladed weapon can break through Gaara's Sand Armor in the first place, which you really have not provided any support for, and armor would indeed suggest the ability to block edged weapons [as you know that's what armor is made for].

Also by the by, I could apply your same logic for why Hidan wins against CE-Gaara to why Hidan should win against PII Gaara. Hidan kept up with Kakashi, so he blitz's past PII Gaara's sand defense. PII Gaara hasn't shown to defend anyone as quick as Kakashi after all [don't say Kimi because the only way you would get the idea that he's that quick is from the DB]. Than Hidan's Scythe pieces through Gaara's Suna Armor, because even up to early part II Gaara's sand armor never was shown blocking a edged weapon of the scythe's size without a single scratch. Than I can just ignore all the other techniques that could stop Hidan, as you've done in the case of CE-Gaara's other techniques



> I said fighting style, Asuma hadn't even began to fight then. If you're in a hurry you're somehow in a disadvantage now and you're weaker? What kind of logic is that? I can't believe how differently we are thinking. Would Asuma suddenly be able to defeat Hidan somehow if he wasn't in a hurry? He clashed with him but he could touch him while Hidan got his blood. Then he used his ninjutsu and it was basically over then when Hidan got in his circle. What would he have done differently if he wasn't in a hurry? Why would he make a strategy about him fighting Hidan and Shikamaru catching him off guard while they are fighting if he was stronger than Hidan.


.
The implication was very clearly that Asuma would not have charged into CQC with Hidan, if not for Shikkamaru being there and the threat of Kakuzu. If Asuma instead hung back utilizing mid/long range jutsu to maintain distance while gathering intel on Hidan's fighting style, it's very possible that Asuma would not have been cut, and Hidan would not have been able to get the blood necessary for his ritual. Thus ending the duel in Asuma's victory. 

I mean which do you think is smarter; charge the enemy w/ unknown abilities head on or hang back and utilize your ranged Jutsu to feel the enemy out first?



Soul said:


> I can't believe you are even arguing that.


Why can't you believe that? Based on portrayal Kakuzu considered any member of the 12 Guardians a threat to him, let alone Hidan. The DB also reflects Asuma having a superior stat total to Hidan. By "feats" I can easily demonstrate why Asuma is a vastly more versatile fighter, who would prove more effective than Hidan in a number of different situations. Both feats and portrayal would place Asuma a bit ahead of Hidan, though not to such a degree that he couldn't loose depending on if Hidan had favorable circumstances; which is exactly what occurred, knowledge advantage went to Hidan and Asuma being forced to act recklessly OOC allowed Hidan to draw blood for his ritual.


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## Veracity (Apr 25, 2014)

Is someone seriously using DB stats when we have a ridiculous amount of feats to contradict them? Especially regarding speed. 

DB stats are unreliable.
? Kakuzu with a 4 distracted and blind side attacked  2.5 Shikamaru, and Shikamaru dodged.
? Kisame with a 4 reacting and getting the upper hand on V1 Bee.
? Tsunade with a "3.5" blitzing Shizune and Oro.
? Hidan with 3.5 reacting perfectly fine to 4.5+ Sharingan Kakashi 
? Hebi Sasuke with the same speed stat as Deidara not blitzing albeit the fact that Deidara was distracted and has a poor Taijustu stat.
? Yamato and Kisame holding the same speed stat.
? PTS Lee, Kakuzu, Kisame, and PTS Kakashi all sharing the same speed stat.
? Tenten> Hiruzen in speed.
? PTS Neji> Hidan in speed.


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## Dominus (Apr 25, 2014)

Turrin said:


> He is on that "level" because he was elected Kazekage. Anyone elected Kazekage would technically be "Kage-level". The question is does that put him above Hidan; I think Hidan would also easily be in the running for Kazekage, based on how weak Sungakure had become.
> 
> Now if you want to ignore the in cannon definition of "Kage-level" and create your own definition, than once again I'll ask what makes Gaara "Kage-level" and Hidan not; according to you?



His abilities, I think that he's on that level considering their size, his shields and his ability to fly. 



> No he didn't say he would have been defeated had Jiriaya had knowledge. He said he could have never beaten Jiraiya, if Jiriaya had knowledge, period.



[sp=In the Viz translation he says][/sp]



> So he didn't know about one aspect of Ninjutsu. He still had whiteness tons of Ninjutsu techniques up until that point, considering the events of Part I. Additionally in terms of Ninjutsu skill Naruto was not >= Kakashi. In terms of overall skill sure, but we already covered that, you, I, and the DB rates overall skill more than knowledge.



Him not knowing the basic stuff which I think academy students should know just seems ridiculous to me.



> And i'm saying they don't show things differently. It's just your opinion that things should be different. But your opinion simply does not matter in comparison to the author's; no offense.



This is not different opinions between me and the author but me and you.
Databook stats=author's opinion
Manga=author's opinion
I think that what the manga shows is more important and we just disagree about what it shows. 



> And I think you must have missed my point where I said it's not as simple as just being able to get by Gaara's automatic defense. He also has techniques like Suna Tama, Partial Shukaku Transformation, Suna Bushin, and Flying Sand. Hidan has to be able to get past all of those things to be able to damage CE Gaara; hence why I showed panels of Gaara blocking weapons with those techniques.



I just don't see why someone who basically only uses physical abilties and clashed with Kakashi and Asuma couldn't get past those attacks when Sasuke and Lee could. 



> Once again if it was as simple as having Lee/Sasuke "level" speed (Which Hidan doesn't even have according to the author) and a bladed weapon, than Sasuke/Lee would have owned Gaara, instead of needing Chidori and 5th-Gate to deal any damage.



They simply needed that weapon, they already broke through his armor of sand just couldn't beat him with their fists in base.



> And if Lee would have pulled out a weapon, than Gaara probably would have upped his defenses utilizing one of the above methods I already alluded to. That is assuming an bladed weapon can break through Gaara's Sand Armor in the first place, which you really have not provided any support for, and armor would indeed suggest the ability to block edged weapons [as you know that's what armor is made for].



Lee already broke through his defenses like I showed in my previous post, in my opinion he just needed that weapon and his mistake was waiting for Gaara to recover his armor.



> Also by the by, I could apply your same logic for why Hidan wins against CE-Gaara to why Hidan should win against PII Gaara. Hidan kept up with Kakashi, so he blitz's past PII Gaara's sand defense. PII Gaara hasn't shown to defend anyone as quick as Kakashi after all [don't say Kimi because the only way you would get the idea that he's that quick is from the DB]. Than Hidan's Scythe pieces through Gaara's Suna Armor, because even up to early part II Gaara's sand armor never was shown blocking a edged weapon of the scythe's size without a single scratch. Than I can just ignore all the other techniques that could stop Hidan, as you've done in the case of CE-Gaara's other techniques



Mostly because he can fly and because I think he became faster after the exams. It was stated there that he's a better shinobi when he fought Kimimaro than at the exams. In Part II he most likely became even more powerful.



> The implication was very clearly that Asuma would not have charged into CQC with Hidan, if not for Shikkamaru being there and the threat of Kakuzu. If Asuma instead hung back utilizing mid/long range jutsu to maintain distance while gathering intel on Hidan's fighting style, it's very possible that Asuma would not have been cut, and Hidan would not have been able to get the blood necessary for his ritual. Thus ending the duel in Asuma's victory.
> 
> I mean which do you think is smarter; charge the enemy w/ unknown abilities head on or hang back and utilize your ranged Jutsu to feel the enemy out first?



Then why did Asuma do as he did? He wanted to lose?
Asuma's elemental attacks didn't hurt Hidan much and Kakuzu's elemental attacks didn't injure him either. Besides elemental techniques, Asuma hasn't shown any long range attacks while Hidan can use his blade for long range attacks and get Asuma's blood as he did in the manga. So yeah Asuma using his ninjutsu first wouldn't change much.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> His abilities, I think that he's on that level considering their size, his shields and his ability to fly.


Gaara had all of those abilities in Part I. The only confirmable change is the size/scope, but as you previously stated we don't know the size/scope of his abilities after losing Shukaku & when he's fighting outside the desert. So unless you think Part I Gaara was also "Kage-level", you have to be basing this purely on belief that Shukaku/Topographic advantage didn't do much for Gaara. Which, okay, that's your opinion, but that is not nearly a solid enough case to challenge what the author indicated in the DB.



> In the Viz translation he says


That supports exactly what I said. We couldn't have beaten him. Not he could have beaten us under very specific circumstances.



> Him not knowing the basic stuff which I think academy students should know just seems ridiculous to me.


That's Naruto, he follows a different path from the norm; doesn't mean he didn't have a-lot of knowledge on techniques at that point.



> This is not different opinions between me and the author but me and you.
> Databook stats=author's opinion
> Manga=author's opinion
> I think that what the manga shows is more important and we just disagree about what it shows.


If you find me a quote from the manga where it states that Kisame Pre-DBIII has demonstrated more proficiency in Ninjutsu than Hidan; than i'll agree with you. The problem is there is nothing like that in the manga. You are simply seeing Kisame's Ninjutsu and saying to yourself, well that should be better than what Hidan has shown. That is your opinion. On the other hand i'm going off what the author says in the DB: Hidan > Kisame. That is the author's opinion on their standings as of DBIII. So it is your opinion vs the author's opinion.



> I just don't see why someone who basically only uses physical abilties and clashed with Kakashi and Asuma couldn't get past those attacks when Sasuke and Lee could.


Once again Sasuke and Lee needed 5th-Gate and Chidori respectively to damage CE-Gaara.



> They simply needed that weapon, they already broke through his armor of sand just couldn't beat him with their fists in base.
> Lee already broke through his defenses like I showed in my previous post, in my opinion he just needed that weapon and his mistake was waiting for Gaara to recover his armor.


Why didn't they just pull out a weapon then. I mean maybe you can make an argument for Lee not carrying a weapons, but Sasuke certainly does cary weapons.



> Mostly because he can fly and because I think he became faster after the exams. .


He could always, fly, he even says as much when he pulls out the ability against Kimimaro. 



> It was stated there that he's a better shinobi when he fought Kimimaro than at the exams. In Part II he most likely became even more powerful


This speaks to portrayal, which I agree is the right way to look at this. However if your going to go off the "unseen", than you can't turn around and say DB is ridiculous, because of "feats".



> Then why did Asuma do as he did? He wanted to lose?


Because for the fourth time; he fought differently due to Shikkamaru and Kakuzu's presence. He had to take risks to end Hidan quickly, out of fear that Kakuzu would at some point get involved in the fight, which he normally wouldn't take. He thought that risk was viable however because of his strategy to draw Hidan into Shikka's shadow bind. This strategy worked and Asuma/Shikka defeated Hidan. Than Kakuzu stepped in and saved his ass. Asuma made all the correct choices for that specific situation, but would not be the same if he fought Hidan w/o Shikkamaru/Kakuzu there. He would have been more cautious and potentially would not have been caught by Hidan's Jutsu.



> Asuma's elemental attacks didn't hurt Hidan much and Kakuzu's elemental attacks didn't injure him either. Besides elemental techniques, Asuma hasn't shown any long range attacks while Hidan can use his blade for long range attacks and get Asuma's blood as he did in the manga. So yeah Asuma using his ninjutsu first wouldn't change much.


Hidan's scythe has never shown long-range, at best it's shown mid-range. And hanging back using elemental attacks is not to defeat Hidan but get a handle on his fighting style, so when he does close in he has better odds of not being scratched. Or to create openings to close in while Hidan has been knocked down or had his LOS blocked by Asuma's elemental attacks. Beyond  that your basing this on shown arsenal, which is never wise, as we probably haven't even seen a 1/4th of Asuma's actual arsenal.


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## Dominus (Apr 26, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Gaara had all of those abilities in Part I. The only confirmable change is the size/scope, but as you previously stated we don't know the size/scope of his abilities after losing Shukaku & when he's fighting outside the desert. So unless you think Part I Gaara was also "Kage-level", you have to be basing this purely on belief that Shukaku/Topographic advantage didn't do much for Gaara. Which, okay, that's your opinion, but that is not nearly a solid enough case to challenge what the author indicated in the DB.



I view end of Part I Gaara as a jōnin, but Part II Gaara as a Kage-level.



> That supports exactly what I said. We couldn't have beaten him. Not he could have beaten us under very specific circumstances.



We're just interpreting what he said differently.



> That's Naruto, he follows a different path from the norm; doesn't mean he didn't have a-lot of knowledge on techniques at that point.



We don't really know how much he knew, but my point was that someone doesn't have to be knowledgeable to be good at ninjutsu or be a strong shinobi.



> If you find me a quote from the manga where it states that Kisame Pre-DBIII has demonstrated more proficiency in Ninjutsu than Hidan; than i'll agree with you. The problem is there is nothing like that in the manga. You are simply seeing Kisame's Ninjutsu and saying to yourself, well that should be better than what Hidan has shown. That is your opinion. On the other hand i'm going off what the author says in the DB: Hidan > Kisame. That is the author's opinion on their standings as of DBIII. So it is your opinion vs the author's opinion.



I view the manga as the author's opinion and I think that in the manga he shows Kisame as a better ninjutsu user (not everything needs to be stated, does the author need to spell everything out for you, you won't be certain that Minato is stronger than Hinata until the author says so?).



> Once again Sasuke and Lee needed 5th-Gate and Chidori respectively to damage CE-Gaara.



I already told you my opinion, you just ignore it completely and think that yours is right. So go ahead and keep thinking that way.



> Why didn't they just pull out a weapon then. I mean maybe you can make an argument for Lee not carrying a weapons, but Sasuke certainly does cary weapons.



How should I know that, am I the author?



> He could always, fly, he even says as much when he pulls out the ability against Kimimaro.
> 
> This speaks to portrayal, which I agree is the right way to look at this. However if your going to go off the "unseen", than you can't turn around and say DB is ridiculous, because of "feats".



Look, I already told you why I think that Hidan can beat CE Gaara and that I think that he can't beat Part II Gaara mostly because he became overall more powerful against Kimimaro and again against Deidara, that includes the size of his attacks and Gaara's speed.



> Because for the fourth time; he fought differently due to Shikkamaru and Kakuzu's presence. He had to take risks to end Hidan quickly, out of fear that Kakuzu would at some point get involved in the fight, which he normally wouldn't take. He thought that risk was viable however because of his strategy to draw Hidan into Shikka's shadow bind. This strategy worked and Asuma/Shikka defeated Hidan. Than Kakuzu stepped in and saved his ass. Asuma made all the correct choices for that specific situation, but would not be the same if he fought Hidan w/o Shikkamaru/Kakuzu there. He would have been more cautious and potentially would not have been caught by Hidan's Jutsu.
> 
> Hidan's scythe has never shown long-range, at best it's shown mid-range. And hanging back using elemental attacks is not to defeat Hidan but get a handle on his fighting style, so when he does close in he has better odds of not being scratched. Or to create openings to close in while Hidan has been knocked down or had his LOS blocked by Asuma's elemental attacks. Beyond  that your basing this on shown arsenal, which is never wise, as we probably haven't even seen a 1/4th of Asuma's actual arsenal.



And I again say why would Kakuzu be involved if Hidan told him not to interfere and Kakuzu agreed. Asuma wouldn't be any stronger, faster and wouldn't have any better elemental ninjutsu if he wasn't in a hurry. I already told you and gave you examples of Hidan being able to deal with everything Asuma has shown. Shikamaru stated in the manga that Hidan can use long range attacks with his weapon. I'm not sure what Asuma's abilities you are talking about when we haven't seen anything stronger even in the war, why would he use some weaker attacks if was able to use some stronger, it doesn't make any sense and since you like making assumptions so much I can say that HIdan has much stronger attacks as well and since he has a 5 in the databook stats (which is the most important thing ever when it comes to deciding who would win in a match) it's not far off to say that he can use ninjutsu on Hashirama's level since you know ninjutsu can't get any higher than a 5. You see how ridiculous assuming can get, that's why people use portrayal *and* feats, because assumptions can get crazy and we can't possibly know what the author is thinking. Again Hidan can deal with Asuma's speed and strength as we have seen in the manga, he won't get hurt by elemental ninjutsu as we have seen in the manga and he can get Asuma's blood as we have seen in the manga and he beat Asuma as we have seen in the manga, so I can't see how Hidan>Asuma can get clearer than that.


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