# Buffy vs. Kid Goku



## Amae (Jun 28, 2011)

Season 8 Buffy after her massive power up vs. Kid Goku at the end of the Piccolo Diamou arc.

How does she fare?


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## DarkSpring (Jun 28, 2011)

Kid goku > buffy.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jun 28, 2011)

Kid Goku rapes


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## Toriko (Jun 28, 2011)

Is this the buffy with mountain level durability?


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## Amae (Jun 28, 2011)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> Kid Goku rapes



You would actually be surprised. Demonstration of her speed: Here and here.

Strength: Size of the creatures she easily manhandles and Lifting a train.

She has shown the ability to exiting the atmosphere and surviving re-entry, thus at least possessing the speed of escape velocity to break free of the earth's gravitational field.  

Has collided into mountains at such speed (completely going through both of them) and came out without any kind of injury. Despite the ridiculousness of it, Buffy and Angel having sex causes tornadoes, caused sea-quakes, and destroyed a mountain. 



Brohan said:


> Is this the buffy with mountain level durability?


Yeah.


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## Bellez (Jun 28, 2011)

Kid Goku


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## KaiserWombat (Jun 28, 2011)

If Buffy can reach escape-velocity speeds, then Goku loses the only advantage he had in the first place.

His physical strength is only large building-level, his Kamehameha would be superior to Roshi's hill-buster but Buffy appears to have even higher destructive capacity, and his durability isn't equivalent to his strength.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 28, 2011)

Yes, from what I am seeing about this version of Buffy, she wins


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## Emperor Joker (Jun 28, 2011)

Little Miss "I Fucked the World into the Apocalypse" wins


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## Disaresta (Jun 28, 2011)

Buffy should win, her newest version is even stronger than season 8 yes?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 28, 2011)

why in the name of god..did whedon do this? sweet jesus


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## Amae (Jun 29, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> why in the name of god..did whedon do this? sweet jesus


The hell if I know, maybe the restrictions of live action television and things like budgets are actually good things. Going from a street level fighter to being able to beat peak Kid Goku is a crazy boost in power.


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## armorknight (Jun 29, 2011)

Amae said:


> The hell if I know, maybe the restrictions of live action television and things like budgets are actually good things. Going from a street level fighter to being able to beat peak Kid Goku is a crazy boost in power.



Pretty much what I think, although Buffy started sucking long before season 8.


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## Cromer (Jun 29, 2011)

I just looked...what the hell? So we can feasibly put Buffy in a match with people like Geo-Force? Or hell, Krypto?


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## Bioness (Jun 29, 2011)

Emperor Joker said:


> Little Miss "I Fucked the World into the Apocalypse" wins



Hey just because Angel and Buffy had super sex and caused massive hurricanes and storms around the world and then created an entire dimension, doesn't mean she...well err guess you're right



Disaresta said:


> Buffy should win, her newest version is even stronger than season 8 yes?



I'm not sure , after she destroyed the Seed of Wonder I know the slayers kept their powers but I'm not sure if Buffy's powers were reverted to what they were before or not, as she is working as a waitress now..so i don't know

Link removed

Anyway this version of buffy is far too powerful for Kid Goku, she'll rip his head off before he can blink.


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## Amae (Jun 29, 2011)

Bioness said:


> I'm not sure , after she destroyed the Seed of Wonder I know the slayers kept their powers but I'm not sure if Buffy's powers were reverted to what they were before or not, as she is working as a waitress now..so i don't know


She still maintains her power boost she gained at the end of Season Eight (it hasn't gotten any further than that, a series of Season Nine comic will be start coming out in a few months) and she doesn't get any stronger than that.


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## Bioness (Jun 29, 2011)

Why the hell is she a waitress at a shop then , she should be flying around fighting crimes and blowing up shit!

wait just remembered that she once stated that she and others shouldn't get involved in natural world problems


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 29, 2011)

this is why that man should never have been allowed near comic books this and what he did in his x run


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## Bioness (Jun 29, 2011)

I don't think the comics appear bad, what is the problem with Buffy gaining a huge power-up? And then with like 5000 people jsut as strong as season 1-7 buffy running around


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 29, 2011)

Bioness said:


> I don't think the comics appear bad, what is the problem with Buffy gaining a huge power-up? And then with like 5000 people jsut as strong as season 1-7 buffy running around



allot, actually its like he felt the need to over power his verse and what ever buffy's appeal as a character was never ZOMG POWUR!!


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 29, 2011)

Bioness said:


> I don't think the comics appear bad, what is the problem with Buffy gaining a huge power-up? And then with like 5000 people jsut as strong as season 1-7 buffy running around


seemed like an asspull power up out of nowhere, I guess

I mean people complain about EU Luke but at least his power ups were more gradual and spanned several novels


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## DemongGodOfChaos (Jun 29, 2011)

The whole appeal of Buffy was to avert the sterotype that never existed, the blonde who is always killed first in a horror movie.


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## Bioness (Jun 29, 2011)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> seemed like an asspull power up out of nowhere, I guess
> 
> I mean people complain about EU Luke but at least his power ups were more gradual and spanned several novels



Technically her power up was gradual, it came from all the slayers that had been killed while w=under her command, people complain about the power-up because they don't actually read the comics which have been active longer than the TV series.


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## Disaresta (Jun 29, 2011)

DemongGodOfChaos said:


> The whole appeal of Buffy was to avert the sterotype that never existed, the blonde who is always killed first in a horror movie.



You know I can believe this, especially when re-watching  the first movie.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 29, 2011)

Bioness said:


> Technically her power up was gradual, it came from all the slayers that had been killed while w=under her command, people complain about the power-up because they don't actually read the comics which have been active longer than the TV series.



it just smacks of typical whedon writing when the guys in one of his leob like periods of talent



Crimson Dragoon said:


> seemed like an asspull power up out of nowhere, I guess
> 
> I mean people complain about EU Luke but at least his power ups were more gradual and spanned several novels



to be fair it took EU luke like what? Two decades of stories to get that mighty?


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## Amae (Jun 29, 2011)

Going back to Buffy's actual power, exactly how strong is she? I'm guessing the strongest people she can beat in DB verse are King Piccolo and Goku, unless she can simply throw anyone slower than her into space and that making it at least 23rd Budokai Piccolo and Goku (or Nappa, is it?). She's at least able to go at the required speed to achieve escape velocity. I'm not sure if she has any other comparable showings of speed, I'll have to check. 

Here's some other feats:


*Spoiler*: __


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## Disaresta (Jun 29, 2011)

God damn I didn't know her power up was that ridicules


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## Endless Mike (Jun 29, 2011)

Cromer said:


> I just looked...what the hell? So we can feasibly put Buffy in a match with people like Geo-Force? Or hell, Krypto?



I doubt it.

Hell, I bet Power Girl would stomp this new Buffy rather easily.


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## Toriko (Jun 29, 2011)

Amae said:


> Going back to Buffy's actual power, exactly how strong is she? I'm guessing the strongest people she can beat in DB verse are King Piccolo and Goku, unless she can simply throw anyone slower than her into space and that making it at least 23rd Budokai Piccolo and Goku (or Nappa, is it?). She's at least able to go at the required speed to achieve escape velocity. I'm not sure if she has any other comparable showings of speed, I'll have to check.
> 
> Here's some other feats:
> 
> ...



Ehh, she might beat Raditz, but Nappa is too much from what I can see about her from this topic


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## Amae (Jun 29, 2011)

Brohan said:


> Ehh, she might beat Raditz, but Nappa is too much from what I can see about her from this topic


She should be faster than them (if that speed is low end), but is the difference large enough to get Nappa before he can attack? Nappa casually destroys cities. Also, on her durability, she was able to survive atmospheric re-entry without injury, how impressive is that?

Some other things:


*Spoiler*: __ 











It's pretty useless without even knowing an approximation of the distance between the two places, has anyone else read this? I need to reread it.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 29, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> I doubt it.
> 
> Hell, I bet Power Girl would stomp this new Buffy rather easily.



isn't current PG a bit above Clark strength wise?


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## Disaresta (Jun 29, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> isn't current PG a bit above Clark strength wise?



I'm pretty sure it was agreed upon that 1 of the PG were capable of massively soloing DBZ


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## Toriko (Jun 29, 2011)

Amae said:


> She should be faster than them (if that speed is low end), but is the difference large enough to get Nappa before he can attack? Nappa casually destroys cities. Also, on her durability, she was able to survive atmospheric re-entry without injury, how impressive is that?
> 
> Some other things:
> 
> ...



I doubt she's faster than Nappa, he should be escape velocity+ himself based on Goku's snake way feat. She could possibly put up a good HtH fight, but Nappa has attacks ,that from what I can see, can one shot her


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## Endless Mike (Jun 29, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> isn't current PG a bit above Clark strength wise?



Um, no. She's tough but way weaker than the likes of Superman and Supergirl.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 29, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Um, no. She's tough but way weaker than the likes of Superman and Supergirl.



right I keep confusing the two there was one version of SG that seemed to at least physically be a bit more than clark


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## Endless Mike (Jun 29, 2011)

You mean before it was revealed that he just holds back more than her


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## Amae (Jun 29, 2011)

Brohan said:


> I doubt she's faster than Nappa, he should be escape velocity+ himself based on Goku's snake way feat.


Given how that speed is at least her minimum and Nappa's is through Goku's showings (and isn't Mach 30+ the high end for that Snake Way feat?), I think her speed is more than likely higher. Her durability seems to be mountain level+, but I don't know how that was arrived at.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 29, 2011)

Snake Way feat is commonly accepted to be Mach 28


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## Disaresta (Jun 29, 2011)

Can someone tell me HOW buffy got such a huge power up, I read something about collective slayer energy or something like that but...really, this seems ridicules


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## Banhammer (Jun 29, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> I doubt it.
> 
> Hell, I bet Power Girl would stomp this new Buffy rather easily.



Kripto-Buffy during Twilight booty call? She's at the very least Smallville Clark Kent level. Before he was a planet moover that is, but with flight.


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## Amae (Jun 29, 2011)

Ugh, I have to repost this.



Crimson Dragoon said:


> Snake Way feat is commonly accepted to be Mach 28


Thanks.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Buffy was in Tibet and flew somewhere in the arctic region in those pages. The lapse of time seems to be a matter of seconds.



Disaresta said:


> Can someone tell me HOW buffy got such a huge power up, I read something about collective slayer energy or something like that but...really, this seems ridicules



Exactly that. Buffy's the receptor of all the dying slayers' power.


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## Shikamaru (howtroublesome) (Jun 29, 2011)

DemongGodOfChaos said:


> The whole appeal of Buffy was to avert the sterotype that never existed, the blonde who is always killed first in a horror movie.



Sounds like Buffy should have been a black guy.


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## Bioness (Jun 29, 2011)

DemongGodOfChaos said:


> The whole appeal of Buffy was to avert the sterotype that never existed, the blonde who is always killed first in a horror movie.



I think the stereotype they were trying to put down was the useless female who always cowered in front of danger.


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## Disaresta (Jun 29, 2011)

Amae said:


> Exactly that. Buffy's the receptor of all the dying slayers' power.



Man that really does sound like an ass pull on the writers part...


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 29, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> You mean before it was revealed that he just holds back more than her



are you talking about the leob comic were he had every one job to SG then to have clark suddenly reveal he was stronger than her?

I was thinking a little more recent and less crazy but if that was it alright then


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## Narcissus (Jun 30, 2011)

Bioness said:


> I think the stereotype they were trying to put down was the useless female who always cowered in front of danger.



_Interviewer: "Why do you write all of these strong women?"

Joss Whedon: "Because you're still asking that question."_​
--

The kinds of power Buffy is displaying in the comics has been hinted at among other gods and Old Ones in the TV series, but something always prevented them from displaying the a great deal of their powers (with the exception of the Senior Partners). Not to mention the Slayer line has been messed with before as well. People will often complain about something they have not even read themselves.

Buffy wins this match.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 30, 2011)

Narcissus said:


> _Interviewer: "Why do you write all of these strong women?"
> 
> Joss Whedon: "Because you're still asking that question."_​
> --.



he says that but then he goes and makes allot of his female protagonists either nearly manic going from strong and awesome and to weak and bawwing their eyes out in a mans arms to morally bankrupt..to psychotic back to altruistic 

I think that cracked article on Whedon summed it up real nice.

mind you i think he does female heroes alright I mean I think their usually supposed to anti heroes or tormented but him saying that seems so hollow and pretentious


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## Narcissus (Jun 30, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> he says that but then he goes and makes allot of his female protagonists either nearly manic going from strong and awesome and to weak and bawwing their eyes out in a mans arms to morally bankrupt..to psychotic back to altruistic
> 
> I think that cracked article on Whedon summed it up real nice.
> 
> mind you i think he does female heroes alright I mean I think their usually supposed to anti heroes or tormented but him saying that seems so hollow and pretentious



Don't know about his comics, but in terms of the Buffyverse, the female characters tend to have reasons for going insane the way they do. Willow went insane because Tara was killed in front of her, both Glory and Illyria were reduced to being trapped in a human form. Dru was driven to madness by Angelus. Faith was taken in by the Mayor and she saw him as a father figure (one of the best relationships in the show). Anya had her powers taken away and was forced to feel human emotions again after hundreds of years, and after she fell in love with Xander he broke her heart.

All of these are powerful female characters from the verse, and they all had good reason for doing the things they did. The only weak and crying character that instantly comes to mind is Dawn. Fred fit this too, but she also had a good reason and she developed well.

I'm not sure where you're getting the part about going into a man's arms. Buffy killed Angel to save the world, and Cordelia (a shallow bitch who developed over time into a loving person) accepted her fate to die despite loving Angel.

Whedon may make some blunders along the way in his writing, as many writers do, but I doubt he wasn't being sincere when he said that.


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## Devil Kings (Jun 30, 2011)

Why do people think Buffy, and Angel's power up or just random.

Movies Buffy had Lothos with the ability to fly. The comic even went into details why both Buffy, and Angel were given there powers.

Also a misconception, Buffy didn't get her powers because of the slayers dying, but because the Universe itself wanted to evolve both Angel, and Buffy into the new supreme beings of said universe.

So far, Twilight is by far the most powerful being in the Buffy/Angel verse. Because if Twilight had happen, all the most powerful demons, including the old ones would have destroyed.


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## Whimsy (Jun 30, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> this is why that man should never have been allowed near comic books this and what he did in his x run



Now hang on


The start and end of his x-men run was fantastic

It's the stuff in the middle that's slightly problematic


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## Amae (Jun 30, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> he says that but then he goes and makes allot of his female protagonists either nearly manic going from strong and awesome and to weak and bawwing their eyes out in a mans arms to morally bankrupt..to psychotic back to altruistic
> 
> I think that cracked article on Whedon summed it up real nice.
> 
> mind you i think he does female heroes alright I mean I think their usually supposed to anti heroes or tormented but him saying that seems so hollow and pretentious


Huh? That sounds completely off base, what characters are you exactly talking about? And this thread really isn't about how big of a hack Whedon is.



Narcissus said:


> People will often complain about something they have not even read themselves.



This is true, though, Season 8 has many people that have read it screaming "noncanon!" 

Buffy traveled at least 1941 kilometers. Twilight's HQ location is shown to be further than Mongolia, it's more than likely somewhere in Europe and it's in the arctic region. She arrived there in seconds - a definite time of three seconds had more things happen in between that time and took longer than Buffy's flying. If she only went to Mongolia (unlikely) and it took her 10 seconds (unlikely) to get there, it would be a ridiculous showing of speed (194 km/s).

Narcissus, do you know if they ever confirm the location?


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 30, 2011)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Snake Way feat is commonly accepted to be Mach 28


On the way there or on the way back after he is revived?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 30, 2011)

Narcissus said:


> Don't know about his comics, but in terms of the Buffyverse, the female characters tend to have reasons for going insane the way they do. Willow went insane because Tara was killed in front of her, both Glory and Illyria were reduced to being trapped in a human form. Dru was driven to madness by Angelus. Faith was taken in by the Mayor and she saw him as a father figure (one of the best relationships in the show). Anya had her powers taken away and was forced to feel human emotions again after hundreds of years, and after she fell in love with Xander he broke her heart.



faith I thought was handled really well Willows heel turn seemed to be done in a really sudden and then mood swingy manner but considering the circumstances behind that

I was refering more to buffy's personality in the later seasons and some of the other characters he's thought up


Narcissus said:


> All of these are powerful female characters from the verse, and they all had good reason for doing the things they did. The only weak and crying character that instantly comes to mind is Dawn. Fred fit this too, but she also had a good reason and she developed well.



Fred was a wall flower wasn't she? Dawn I don't actually begrudge the guy for I mean her existence seemed forced some what and I thought the whole key thing was that way but there wasn't much most writers could do with her..he did more then normal



Narcissus said:


> Whedon may make some blunders along the way in his writing, as many writers do, but I doubt he wasn't being sincere when he said that.



when Whedon fucks up he fucks up about the same as any one else it's more his attitude regarding it that's off putting




Devil Kings said:


> Why do people think Buffy, and Angel's power up or just random.
> 
> Movies Buffy had Lothos with the ability to fly. The comic even went into details why both Buffy, and Angel were given there powers.
> 
> ...



LOL...eh good enough a reason as any I suppose

oh and she went from being some one Tim Drake could dismantle in a fight too some one that you might call a mid tier like Simon or Ben in to deal with..with very little justification which would be the reason why some people would be cheesed off



Whimsy said:


> Now hang on
> 
> 
> The start and end of his x-men run was fantastic
> ...



there's also what he did to kitty pryde and the gigantic dump he took on the Shi'ar empire too 



Amae said:


> Huh? That sounds completely off base, what characters are you exactly talking about? And this thread really isn't about how big of a hack Whedon is.



whoa whoa who said anything about hacks? we're not talking about Jeoph Leob or Masashi Kishimoto here man- i don't think Whedon can be called that considering his involvement in toy story Titan AE and well buffy


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## Amae (Jun 30, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> oh and she went from being some one Tim Drake could dismantle in a fight too some one that you might call a mid tier like Simon or Ben in to deal with..with very little justification which would be the reason why some people would be cheesed off



Yeah, and this was a tad over the top. Someone really needs to reel in the writers. But, ignoring the absurdity of it all, Buffy and Angel are capable of destroying a mountain.


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## Banhammer (Jun 30, 2011)

Whedon hate? Astonishing X-Men whedon hate? I'm getting a rage blackout and about to neg everyone in sight


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jun 30, 2011)

Amae said:


> Yeah, and this was a tad over the top. Someone really needs to reel in the writers. But, ignoring the absurdity of it all, Buffy and Angel are capable of destroying a mountain.



and it is with great pleasure that I can now objectively claim buffy smashes itachis face in


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## Devil Kings (Jun 30, 2011)

Amae said:


> Yeah, and this was a tad over the top. Someone really needs to reel in the writers. But, ignoring the absurdity of it all, Buffy and Angel are capable of destroying a mountain.



What you expect, they haven't seen each other in years, and sex was always taboo to them.

If anything the Angel/Buffy relationship was one of the most unique things in the Joss verse, that is until season 6 he just straight shit on it.

Edit: Angel/Buffy should be considers casual mountain busters. They busted that mountain without really trying too. It was just a collateral damage.


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## Banhammer (Jun 30, 2011)

Angel and Buffy dynamics were always great, and when he went off to his own spin off you had fucking Batman on LA.
Fuck all of the haters. all of them


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## Black Leg Sanji (Jun 30, 2011)

With Angel starting as Buffy entered S4 it wouldnt surprise me if Whedon and his team focused more on the latter

Which would explain the differences in quality and potential between the two shows as time went by


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 30, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> On the way there or on the way back after he is revived?



on the way back after his revival


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## Devil Kings (Jun 30, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> Angel and Buffy dynamics were always great, and when he went off to his own spin off you had fucking Batman on LA.
> Fuck all of the haters. all of them



That's the biggest reason Buffy went down in quality after season 3. Angel was the best character along with Buffy in there.

Season 2 of Buffy is still the best season, because of Angelus. I mean people taught Spike, Dru, Darla, and The Master were fucked up vampires. Angelus showed up, and you forgot about every other vampires, because the guy was just a straight bad-ass.

Nothing could top off what he did to Jenny, or when he told Buffy's mom how she lost her virginity to him. Shit had me rolling on the floor.


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## Amae (Jun 30, 2011)

Devil Kings said:


> Edit: Angel/Buffy should be considers casual mountain busters. They busted that mountain without really trying too. It was just a collateral damage.


This is just with their strength and speed, too. And that durability would be at that level. With that into account including her potential speed advantage, wouldn't she be able to beat Nappa down enough to launch him into space (or any other viable option)?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 30, 2011)

depends whether or not Nappa can get a widespread AOE ki blast in time

the speed gap, if any, between them isn't so wide that it isn't debatable


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 30, 2011)

For the record this talk of mountain busting even casual means nothing when you consider Nappa level is moon buster+. Regardless Buffy beats Kid Goku very very easily based of feats.


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## Amae (Jun 30, 2011)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> depends whether or not Nappa can get a widespread AOE ki blast in time
> 
> the speed gap, if any, between them isn't so wide that it isn't debatable


His casual two finger move is a city buster, Buffy can survive re-entry and rams through mountains.

The speed gap, well ... Buffy traveled to another country (she was in Tibet and traveled further than the distance between her position and Mongolia) in a couple of seconds. Nappa wouldn't be able to match that.

I'm really only continuing because I want to know how impressive she is.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 30, 2011)

Amae said:


> His casual two finger move is a city buster



probable multi-city buster actually, considering contact with several cities were lost after his attack

surviving re-entry and going through mountains is nice and all, but way weaker people than Nappa were island-razing level and can survive said island razers up close

I'll give you speed though


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 30, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> I doubt it.
> 
> Hell, I bet Power Girl would stomp this new Buffy rather easily.



I'm betting Invincible can take her


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## Amae (Jun 30, 2011)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> probable multi-city buster actually, considering contact with several cities were lost after his attack
> 
> I'll give you speed though


This is crucial then because that would give her a massive speed advantage (it's hard to determine exactly how far she traveled but even that minimum distance would be a lot more impressive than breaking free of the earth's gravitational field). The time frame is simpler to determine, but even if you believe it took her 30 seconds, she's at least 6 times as fast as he is. It's likely it was done in under 15 seconds. A ki blast and she's done, though.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 30, 2011)

His casual two fingers move while *suppressed* is a city+ move, he's around 8,000 or so when serious. Regardless he's lacking speed advantage here.


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## Artful Lurker (Jun 30, 2011)

Is this super buffy? and what is the strongest version of buffy?


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## Twinsen (Jun 30, 2011)

WTF, it's been a long time since I've watched Buffy but damn


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## Amae (Jun 30, 2011)

Dreadlock Luffy said:


> Is this super buffy? and what is the strongest version of buffy?


This is Buffy after she received a power boost - she can casually bust mountains and flew to another country (somewhere in Europe from China) in seconds, it's been concluded she takes this match easily. This is her at her strongest.


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## Artful Lurker (Jun 30, 2011)

Amae said:


> This is Buffy after she received a power boost - she can casually bust mountains and flew to another country (somewhere in Europe from China) in seconds, it's been concluded she takes this match easily. This is her at her strongest.



 Even stronger than Super Buffy?


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## Devil Kings (Jun 30, 2011)

Amae said:


> This is Buffy after she received a power boost - she can casually bust mountains and flew to another country (somewhere in Europe from China) in seconds, it's been concluded she takes this match easily. This is her at her strongest.



Actually full powered Angel/Buffy could be considers a Universal threat. If they had stayed in Twilight, they would have bleed the old Universe dry, and the Twilight universe would have became the new Universe.

It's also implied/showed that Buffy/Angel inside Twilight are Universal manipulators. Angel told Buffy that inside Twilight all there wishes can come true, and any desires they desires are but a thought away.


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## Narcissus (Jun 30, 2011)

Amae said:


> Narcissus, do you know if they ever confirm the location?



I don't remember off-hand. I'd need to look back at the comics, which aren't with me right now.


The Immortal WatchDog said:


> faith I thought was handled really well Willows heel turn seemed to be done in a really sudden and then mood swingy manner but considering the circumstances behind that
> 
> I was refering more to buffy's personality in the later seasons and some of the other characters he's thought up



Yeah, considering the circumstances (Tara being killed right in front of her eyes) and the fact that there was a slow build up with Willow's addiction to magic, it wasn't exactly sudden.

The only example I can think of in regards to Buffy is her relationship with Spike, in which case she was using him to feel because of the damage that she suffered after being ripped out of Heaven. What other characters are you referring to?


> Fred was a wall flower wasn't she? Dawn I don't actually begrudge the guy for I mean her existence seemed forced some what and I thought the whole key thing was that way but there wasn't much most writers could do with her..he did more then normal



The issue with Dawn being the Key was done pretty well. It was Dawn's whining in the following seasons that made her annoying. Though you are correct in saying that there wasn't much else they could do with her afterwards though.


> when Whedon fucks up he fucks up about the same as any one else it's more his attitude regarding it that's off putting



I suppose. However, in my experience with him, he has done more than enough good for me to ignore the bad. I never read his comics on the X-Men, but I watched Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Serenity, Dr. Horrible's Sing-a-long Blog, and and episode of Glee directed by him. And as you mentioned, his involvement with Titan A.E.


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## Skywalker (Jul 1, 2011)

Goku destroys her pretty easily.


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## Bioness (Jul 1, 2011)

^ do you ever even bother to think before posting


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## Skywalker (Jul 1, 2011)

Bioness said:


> ^ do you ever even bother to think before posting


I know Buffy wins, take it easy.


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## C-No (Jul 1, 2011)

I'm actually not sure. Everything I know about Kid Goku is before the stuff with Piccolo.


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## Devil Kings (Jul 1, 2011)

C-No said:


> I'm actually not sure. Everything I know about Kid Goku is before the stuff with Piccolo.



Kid Goku gets his neck snap.


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## CoolTaff12 (Jul 1, 2011)

I say Goku for now.


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## Amae (Jul 1, 2011)

CoolTaff12 said:


> I say Goku for now.


Too bad of strength and speed advantage, he would lose. Her speed advantage may allow her to beat characters slower than her, but it's still questionable how fast she exactly is.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 2, 2011)

Devil Kings said:


> That's the biggest reason Buffy went down in quality after season 3. Angel was the best character along with Buffy in there.
> 
> Season 2 of Buffy is still the best season, because of Angelus. I mean people taught Spike, Dru, Darla, and The Master were fucked up vampires. Angelus showed up, and you forgot about every other vampires, because the guy was just a straight bad-ass.
> 
> Nothing could top off what he did to Jenny, or when he told Buffy's mom how she lost her virginity to him. Shit had me rolling on the floor.



Angelus turned into a ranting overdramtic fool in s4 of Angel. It was like they forgot he's supppose to be somewhat subtle and not monolgue every four seconds. The scene with Cordelia when he was locked up was the worst. Hell, on Angel in general Angelus just talked too damn much. Mind you, it was fun to hear most of the time, but it didn't gel as well as it had in S2 of Buffy.


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## Guru (Jul 2, 2011)

Kamehameha is moon busting


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