# Deidara vs. Sasori



## Ryuzaki (Jun 4, 2015)

Distance: 20 meters
Location: Deidara vs Sasuke
Mindset: IC
Knowledge: Basic

Who wins?


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## Matty (Jun 4, 2015)

Sasori. Iron sand can block most of the explosions. C4 is inneffective. I count C0 as a loss for Deidara. Even an airborne Deidara can be hit with Satetsu


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## Kai (Jun 4, 2015)

While Deidara should be above Sasori due to C4, C4's mechanics are useless against Sasori as he  doesn't breathe, leaving nano bombs no entry point that is known.

C0 probably kills them both. How can Sasori stop him from using it?


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## Matty (Jun 4, 2015)

Deidara isn't above Sasori. And C0 would be a loss for him. He dies first right?


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 4, 2015)

Kai said:


> C0 probably kills them both. How can Sasori stop him from using it?



he can't

but IC Deidara will use it only as a last resort, Sasori needs to deal a killing blow before it comes to that


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 5, 2015)

What stop Deidara from making his miniature bombs that peel through the sand? That's essentially how he stopped Gaara. He could technically use himself as a diversion while cooking those up. He's done it before against Sasuke Uchiha.


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## Alucardemi (Jun 5, 2015)

Well, considering Deidara said Sasori is stronger...


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 5, 2015)

Sasori wins
C0/C4 are invalid
C1 can be dealt w/ by virtually every known sasori weapon skill
C3 doesn't follow the target & sasori can fly. sand can also shred it in the air

C2 is blockable, but more importantly, its interceptable w/ weapon stuffs, and so, it can be dealt w/ in multitasking fashion - sasori will still be chasing deidara down while simultaneously thwarting C2, as it is more sparse than the C1 ''swarms''.



Ryuzaki said:


> What stop Deidara from making his miniature bombs that peel through the sand? That's essentially how he stopped Gaara. He could technically use himself as a diversion while cooking those up. He's done it before against Sasuke Uchiha.



- sasori doesn't need to turtle inside a sand egg
- the ability to fly w/o the sand
- flamethrowers
- chakra strings(lots of them)
- Dei, using himself as a diversion gets him poisoned, gg


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2015)

Deidara outright admitted Sasori was stronger. Sasori's hype also dwarfs his. Sasori's stats are much better. And as far as their abilities go Satetsu alone is better than Deidara's Jutsu, as it's equally haxed and powerful, but it does not have the weakness to Raiton and is made more hax by Sasori adding poison to it.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 5, 2015)

Sasori has better art...


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2015)

Kai said:


> While Deidara should be above Sasori due to C4, C4's mechanics are useless against Sasori as he  doesn't breathe, leaving nano bombs no entry point that is known.


C4 is overrated Kai. Everyone and their mom is ether immune, has Raiton, and/or has a perception ability that can detect it. Just a short list of the higher end shinobi:

1- Itachi - Sharingan
2- Minato - 2 different types of Sensing + Raiton
3. Tobirama - Sensing + Raiton
4. Shisui - Sharingan + Raiton
5. Gaara - Motion detection + Raiton
6. Ei - Surround by Raiton Shroud Bombs can't get through
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Same as Ei
8. Danzo - Sharingan
9. Jiraiya - Sensing + Motion Detection Barrier [Probably a Toad has Raiton]
10. Mu - Sensing + Raiton
11. Onoki - Knowledge of Kibaku Nendo + Raiton
12. Kakashi - Sharingan + Raiton
13. Kisame - Sensing
14. Troll - Immune Suika no Jutsu + Raiton
15. Sasori - Immune doesn't breath
16. Kakuzu - Immune doesn't breath
17. Konan - Almost always immune due to Shikigami form
18. Hanzo - Immune as long as mask is on
19. Haishi - Byakugan
20. Zetsu - Weird Byakugan Like Dojutsu + Sensing + Raiton
21. Sasuke [MS and Hebi] - Raiton + Sharingan
22. Naruto [Pain Arc and above] - Sensing

C4 is woefully ineffective against all of them. Which leaves out of Shinobi worth discussing: Darui, Tsunade, Orochimaru, Rasa, Hiruzen, Gin&Kin, Wind-Arc Naruto, Mei, Killer-B, Gai, and Mifune.

All of these shinobi might get killed by C4, but for most of them there chances are still good that they won't. 

Darui, B, Orochimaru, Hiruzen, Mei, Gai, Gin+Kin, and Tsunade all have Raiton, so as long as they have knowledge on Kibaku Nendo or figure it out before C4 comes into play they have decent odds of surviving it. Like wise many of these fighters are quite tanky and likely wouldn't die immediately to C4 anyway such as Tsunade, Orochimaru, Gin/Kin, and B, so as long as the realize in time they can still use Raiton to diffuse the bombs they ingested. B also will be difficult to have ingest bombs if he's using shrouds. And there is some speculation over whether Hiruzen has sensing or not, if he does he belongs on the above list.

Mifune is utterly fucked if C4 goes off, but Mifune is fucked if he allows his enemy to fight him at Long-Range anyway, so ether he keeps it in short range and blocks Deidara's seals, or he looses regardless. And if he's blocking Deidara seals than no C4 anyway. And Rasa also is at the most risk.

But bottom line is if a Jutsu is hard countered by most upper level ninja, with only handful being possible ill suited yet can still counter it, the Jutsu is not that good.



> C0 probably kills them both. How can Sasori stop him from using it?


Poison his ass, before he can finish using it or before he uses it.


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## Rocky (Jun 5, 2015)

Sasuke needed to Chidori (a unique and high-end lighting technique btw) himself to get rid of the nano bombs. Just having Raiton didn't look like it was enough.

Also how does sensing tell a ninja they have bombs in them.

And what kind of sensing does Kisame have?


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## Kai (Jun 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> C4 is overrated Kai. Everyone and their mom is ether immune, has Raiton, and/or has a perception ability that can detect it. Just a short list of the higher end shinobi:
> 
> 1- Itachi - Sharingan
> 2- Minato - 2 different types of Sensing + Raiton
> ...



The line translated by njt has Deidara stating that "C3" is his highest level chakra during his fight with Gaara. It was during this time period that Deidara stated Sasori was even stronger than he was to Naruto and Kakashi.

 Deidara did not possess C4 when he fought Gaara. Deidara developed C4 after his fight with Gaara.


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## Bonly (Jun 5, 2015)

Sasori would win more times then not, once Satetsu comes out Deidara is gonna be done for unless he just turns tail and run 



Kai said:


> The line translated by njt has Deidara stating that "C3" is his highest level chakra during his fight with Gaara. It was during this time period that Deidara stated Sasori was even stronger than he was to Naruto and Kakashi.
> 
> Deidara did not possess C4 when he fought Gaara. Deidara developed C4 after his fight with Gaara.



The third Databook came out after the Itachi vs Sasuke fight which at that point in time Deidara had showed all classes of his clay and Kishi still said in the DB that C3 had the highest amount of chakra put in it. So Deidara might have had C4 in his arsenal at that point in time


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 5, 2015)

> [Probably a Toad has Raiton]



Really? **


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## Kai (Jun 5, 2015)

"When considering its explosive power." Then it boasts the highest level. Deidara stated C3's explosive strength was his greatest artistic achievement in the manga already.

Now, onto a separate statement: *"Out of all things I can make, my 'specialty(#18)' has my highest chakra level "C3" put into it.* Its exploding strength is my greatest artistic achievement."
VOTE 2 base clash

Deidara's 'specialty clay technique' has his highest chakra level "C3" put into it. He introduces C3 as his highest chakra level, and then he talks about its exploding strength.


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2015)

Sasori is stronger, manga fact.


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2015)

Deidara admitted he was weaker 

also its simply too likely he scratches deidara

deidara best jutsu is basically useless. sasori is just better suited to beat deidara than the other way round


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2015)

Kai said:


> While Deidara should be above Sasori due to C4, C4's mechanics are useless against Sasori as he  doesn't breathe, leaving nano bombs no entry point that is known.
> *
> C0 probably kills them both. How can Sasori stop him from using it?*



VOTE 2 base clash
VOTE 2 base clash


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2015)

i dont get the links hussain

how does sasori stop deidara from using C0?


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2015)

the wire-like thing prevents Deidara from being able to blow up with C0.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 5, 2015)

^That was Raiton-flow. And then Sasori's harpoon+Kankuro's puppet. Sasori alone lacks two out of three moves that were used to stop C0.


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2015)

That was only at the start of the war. Omei did not stay around as you can see there is no sword anymore
Raiton-flow

I don't think Kankuro's puppt is important really. He is just sitting there. 
It's not like there is some kind of special condition inside, is there?


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2015)

@hussain 
Was clearly stated omoi raiton flow rendered deidara useless

it was not the wire thing

 you just dont care


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## Alex Payne (Jun 5, 2015)

Deidara was trapped inside Kankuro's puppet. Then C0 was stopped by Raiton-flow. Then Deidara was additionally immobilized by Puppet Sasori's harpoon - applied on top of Kankuro's puppet. 



Physical restrains were Kankuro's Puppet+Sasori. 



If it was only Harpoon's doing - they would have simply sealed Deidara like the others. Open Puppet - drag Harpooned Deidara out and seal him. Yet they didn't. Think about it.

Actual C0 stopping was a mix of unique circumstances and moves. Sasori can't copy either of those just by himself.


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## ARGUS (Jun 5, 2015)

Deidara wins this, C3 GG 
there is absolutely nothing sasori could do against C3, he cant evade it nor does he have the means to tank such firepower, 
inb4 someone shows a scan of Gaaras sand, and tries to give his feats to sasoris IS when there is no indication that he could use it to such magnitude


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2015)

i agree argus

but why cant he send iron sand to it and have it blow up before it drops to an altitude thats dangerous enough to kill him?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2015)

C4 is a threat to anyone who doesn't have knowledge on it. 

And those who can survive it are people who can preempt/sense it or people who can do something about it after they'r hit, in other words people with potent raiton jutsu.

In other words Turrin's list is ridiculous.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Really? **



I laughed out loud.


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2015)

Kai said:


> The line translated by njt has Deidara stating that "C3" is his highest level chakra during his fight with Gaara. It was during this time period that Deidara stated Sasori was even stronger than he was to Naruto and Kakashi.
> 
> Deidara did not possess C4 when he fought Gaara. Deidara developed C4 after his fight with Gaara.


Yeah and C3 does have the highest amount of chakra considering it's AOE and explosive force. That doesn't mean it's better than C4. Just like C4 isn't better in every regard to C3. In-fact DBIII repeats the same thing about C3, despite Deidara having now revealed C4:

_"↑Deidara himself calls this his "pride". The explosive power is especially great, capable of even destroying a village!

It's a simple type, dropped down from the sky, but when only considering explosive power, it boasts the highest level. The explosion's scale and beauty, and the humanoid design of the "Explosive Clay," doing away with any and all excess lines, are something to be proud of."_

But ultimately this is irrelevant to the point I was making about C4



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Really? **


Would you be that surprised POW when everyone and their mom has Raiton in the DB. If Fusaku, Shima, or one of the other Toads had it?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> C4 is a threat to anyone who doesn't have knowledge on it.
> 
> And those who can survive it are people who can preempt/sense it or people who can do something about it after they'r hit, in other words people with potent raiton jutsu.
> .


Lol all the characters on my list have that. Except for a few that are immune due to not breathing. So what are you talking about grimjow.

Maybe you haven't realize it yet but everyone and their mom has ether Raiiton or Preemptive senses at this point.


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2015)

The 4th Databook fucked the element thing all over the place. 
it was supposedly special, and almost impossible for anyone to be able to have all 5 elements, when 
Jiraiya said that Nagato did the impossible, or when Kakashi was surprised from Kakuzu...etc

and then all of a sudden everyone and their mothers have 5 or 4 ...etc.  

Some of which could have used those elements at specific moments to save their lives, or to have a better counter but never did. I guess, the only assumption we can make is, although they do have those elements but their level in it is rather low.

Poor Hiruzen, I almost believed that he had indeed something special when he used all 5 elements, but nope.


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> The 4th Databook fucked the element thing all over the place.
> g


Not really



> it was supposedly special, and almost impossible for anyone to be able to have all 5 elements, when


Kakashi and Yamato basically said every fodder Jonin usually has mastery of 2 Elements. Based on that It's not surprising that top Jonin and Kages have 3-4 Elements under their belt. 

And the only people that have all 5 are ether Jutsu freaks, like Orochimaru and Hiruzen, or people with strong Kaguya connections. 



> it was supposedly special, and almost impossible for anyone to be able to have all 5 elements, when
> Jiraiya said that Nagato did the impossible, or when Kakashi was surprised from Kakuzu...etc


That was having all 5 Elemental Affinities. It's 2015 people, please learn the difference between being able to use an element and having an affinity for that element.



> Some of which could have used those elements at specific moments to save their lives, or to have a better counter but never did. I guess, the only assumption we can make is, although they do have those elements but their level in it is rather low.


When could they have used it to save their lives?



> Poor Hiruzen, I almost believed that he had indeed something special when he used all 5 elements, but nope.


Who else has 5 Elements in the DB lol.


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2015)

I don't think they have the term "fodder", or "Top" Turrin. 



> When could they have used it to save their lives?



For example. It would have been smart if Gaara used his lightning against Deidara, no? 
Why would Kankoro ask for Omei to use it against Deidara, when he already has it?
Maybe Tsunade could have used hers against Madara's fire dragon jutsu? 

and so on. 



> Who else has 5 Elements in the DB lol.



Kaguya, Hagoromo, Hamaru, Madara, Obito, Naruto, Sasuke, Kakashi, Oro, Zetsu, Tobi, Hashirama, and Tobirama.
Kin/Gin and Ten-Ten can actually use them with the fan as well.

And although Mu were given 4 elements, but in the jutsu section his invisible jutsu is supposedly a water style jutsu. Therefore, he really has all 5 elements.  

There were some other characters who do actually have some elements that was not given to them as well. 

even tho, it's still not impressive imo because having 1 more element than those with 4 elements is not all that important either honestly. Granted they are useless
to us without feats tho.


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## Icegaze (Jun 5, 2015)

lol hussain is right DB4 fucked up the elemental jutsu stuff 
which is why i am blind to that aspect of it


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> C4 is overrated Kai. Everyone and their mom is ether immune, has Raiton, and/or has a perception ability that can detect it. Just a short list of the higher end shinobi:
> 
> 1- Itachi - Sharingan
> *2- Minato - 2 different types of Sensing + Raiton*
> ...


The ones bold should not have a raiton element, as they haven't shown it, even if you go by the affinities in the databook, it just shows what their affinities are, not that they have mastered these affinities. For instance, outside of Sasuke and Kakashi, the affinities really don't mean anything. Because they are the only ones that can copy it automatically without having to spend as much time training. 

Also, Sasori doesn't have a raiton element, he can try to cage Deidara but he also doesn't have the necessary support for that. Just because you can detect/see something, doesn't necessarily mean you are going to avoid it.

This list is laughable.


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2015)

Minato supposedly has a purple lightning tho or something. 
Cheeky (little) Bastard


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Minato supposedly has a purple lightning tho or something.



I believe that was Kakashi who created the technique prior to his Hokage ship. Don't ask me when or how, but apparently he did. It was in that novel that was about him.


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## Bonly (Jun 5, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> The ones bold should not have a raiton element, as they haven't shown it, even if you go by the affinities in the databook, it just shows what their affinities are, not that they have mastered these affinities.



"I've heard Deidara's explosive clay is deactivated by Raitons.

*I know a little*." 

Does that sound like Omoi mastered Raitons to you because it doesn't sound like it to me? And yet he still managed to use Raiton flow on Deidara. As I've told you before, one doesn't need to master a element to be able to use jutsu of said element.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 5, 2015)

Bonly said:


> "I've heard Deidara's explosive clay is deactivated by Raitons.
> 
> *I know a little*."
> 
> Does that sound like Omoi mastered Raitons to you because it doesn't sound like it to me? And yet he still managed to use Raiton flow on Deidara. As I've told you before, one doesn't need to master a element to be able to use jutsu of said element.


The fact that he's from the cloud may have something to do with it, I am referring to shinobi that aren't from there that haven't used it at all. Just because they have the affinity doesn't mean they can call it out without any training whatsoever. I believe Naruto had to work really hard to get the manifestation of his wind element and that was his affinity.


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2015)

Ryuzaki stop quoting me before I edit my DB pages every time! Why do you have to be so fast?  


-Jk- 

but yeah, the DB page was edited.


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## Bonly (Jun 5, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> The fact that he's from the cloud may have something to do with it, I am referring to shinobi that aren't from there that haven't used it at all. Just because they have the affinity doesn't mean they can *call it out without any training whatsoever*. I believe Naruto had to work really hard to get the manifestation of his wind element and that was his affinity.



Nobody is saying anyone can do the bold unless you can show me a quote of someone saying that, upon which I missed. People are saying that because [insert a character] can use an element they might be able to use a low level jutsu of said element.


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I don't think they have the term "fodder", or "Top" Turrin.


If someone says the average Jonin, that is Manga speak for Fodder Jonin imo.



> For example. It would have been smart if Gaara used his lightning against Deidara, no?


At what point?



> Why would Kankoro ask for Omei to use it against Deidara, when he already has it?


Probably because he couldn't maintain a constant flow of Raiton like Omoi



> Maybe Tsunade could have used hers against Madara's fire dragon jutsu?


There's a difference between having Suiton and having it on the same level as Madara's Katons.



> Kaguya, Hagoromo, Hamaru, Madara, Obito, Naruto, Sasuke, Kakashi, Oro, Zetsu, Tobi, Hashirama, and Tobirama.
> Kin/Gin and Ten-Ten can actually use them with the fan as well.



So all of them are Gods or connected to Gods. Sans Tobirama, Orochimaru, and Kakashi who are all Ninjutsu masters.



> And although Mu were given 4 elements, but in the jutsu section his invisible jutsu is supposedly a water style jutsu. Therefore, he really has all 5 elements


probably uses Fuuton to manipulat the water particles.



> even tho, it's still not impressive imo because having 1 more element than those with 4 elements is not all that important either honestly


I think it is impressive. He is again in the same league as Tobirama, Orochimaru, and Kakashi as the only ones who were able to accomplish that w/o Kaguya related power or special tools.



Ryuzaki said:


> The ones bold should not have a raiton element, as they haven't shown it, even if you go by the affinities in the databook, it just shows what their affinities are, not that they have mastered these affinities. For instance, outside of Sasuke and Kakashi, the affinities really don't mean anything. Because they are the only ones that can copy it automatically without having to spend as much time training.


No it doesn't show their affinities. Again please I beg you Naruto-fan learn the difference between affinities and being able to use a specific element. An Affinity is something your born with. Everyone is only born with 1 Affinity, unless they have a Bloodline Limit, Expansion, or Mora, in which case they can have multiple. So the chart does not show affinities, but elements that each ninja can use. Now granted we don't know the extent to which they can use these elements. But for the purpose of diffusing Kibaku Nendo it doesn't matter because Kibaku Nendo is so weak to Raiton that any level of Raiton can diffuse even the greatest bomb of all CO, as Omoi with his self expressed shitty raiton showed.



> Also, Sasori doesn't have a raiton element, he can try to cage Deidara but he also doesn't have the necessary support for that.


Sasori probably does have access to Raiton as if he can't use it probably one of his Human Puppets can. However this has nothing to do with my point about C4. Sasori is on the list because he doesn't breath and therefore C4 is useless against him.



> Just because you can detect/see something, doesn't necessarily mean you are going to avoid it.


Sasuke was able to avoid Deidara' largest C4 explosive to date simply because he could see it. So CE-Neji going to avoid it if he see's it with Byakugan, probably not, but most of these ninja are highly experienced ninja with abilities that would allow them to escape it's AOE same as Sasuke. Again we are talking powerful S-Rank Ninja and Kages here.



> This list is laughable.


So the list is laughable because you take fault with the fact that I listed a few have Raiton which they do indeed have according to the author, but even w/o it they still are ether immune or have the perception skills to avoid it? That makes no sense to me.

Edit: Oh and Adding Killer-B to the list now because his Data-book entry says Version 1 Chakra Cloak also wraps raiton around him.

1- Itachi - Sharingan
2- Minato - 2 different types of Sensing + Raiton
3. Tobirama - Sensing + Raiton
4. Shisui - Sharingan + Raiton
5. Gaara - Motion detection + Raiton
6. Ei - Surround by Raiton Shroud Bombs can't get through
7. Sandaime-Raikage - Same as Ei
8. Danzo - Sharingan
9. Jiraiya - Sensing + Motion Detection Barrier [Probably a Toad has Raiton]
10. Mu - Sensing + Raiton
11. Onoki - Knowledge of Kibaku Nendo + Raiton
12. Kakashi - Sharingan + Raiton
13. Kisame - Sensing
14. Troll - Immune Suika no Jutsu + Raiton
15. Sasori - Immune doesn't breath
16. Kakuzu - Immune doesn't breath
17. Konan - Almost always immune due to Shikigami form
18. Hanzo - Immune as long as mask is on
19. Haishi - Byakugan
20. Zetsu - Weird Byakugan Like Dojutsu + Sensing + Raiton
21. Sasuke [MS and Hebi] - Raiton + Sharingan
22. Naruto [Pain Arc and above] - Sensing
23. Killer B - Raiton wrapped around him in V1


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 5, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Nobody is saying anyone can do the bold unless you can show me a quote of someone saying that, upon which I missed. People are saying that because [insert a character] can use an element they might be able to use a low level jutsu of said element.


I was addressing Turrin's post, for instance, he has Gaara using the lightning element, I'm not even sure Gaara can use anything other than wind or doton, whichever category the sand control falls into.


Hussain said:


> Ryuzaki stop quoting me before I edit my DB pages every time! Why do you have to be so fast?
> 
> 
> -Jk-
> ...



Top tier quoting speed


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I was addressing Turrin's post, for instance, he has Gaara using the lightning element, I'm not even sure Gaara can use anything other than wind or doton, whichever category the sand control falls into.i


The author tells you he can use some Raiton Jutsu in the DB. Otherwise he wouldn't be listed as Raiton elemental user. And i'm not arguing these characters have anything high level in Raiton, I'm simply saying they have the ability to use it and therefore can potentially diffuse bombs with it since Omoi's Fodder Raiton easily diffused CO, which is > C4.

There's also a reason I listed Raiton and another attribute that would allow them to counter, because I wouldn't put them on the list if it was some unknown Raiton ability alone, which is why Gai, Orochimaru, Tsunade, etc.. are not on the list. I simply listed Raiton because it's another feather in the listed characters caps against C4, not the whole deal


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## Alex Payne (Jun 5, 2015)

Turrin is right about DB chart showing usable elements(wrong about Deidara though ). Affinities are different. J-Man was shocked that Nagato had all _affinities_. Something that allowed him to use any jutsu at full potential. Back when Rinnegan/Rikudo was about ninjutsu mastery...


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The author tells you he can use some Raiton Jutsu in the DB. Otherwise he wouldn't be listed as Raiton elemental user. And i'm not arguing these characters have anything high level in Raiton, I'm simply saying they have the ability to use it and therefore can potentially diffuse bombs with it since Omoi's Fodder Raiton easily diffused CO, which is > C4.
> 
> There's also a reason I listed Raiton and another attribute that would allow them to counter, because I wouldn't put them on the list if it was some unknown Raiton ability alone, which is why Gai, Orochimaru, Tsunade, etc.. are not on the list. I simply listed Raiton because it's another feather in the listed characters caps against C4, not the whole deal


Is there a translated (into english) version of the DB? Because your earlier posts made it seem like you were just rubbing of the affinities.

*Edit: *didn't see you replied to me earlier, so I'll go ahead and respond to that later at my convenience. 


Alex Payne said:


> Turrin is right about DB chart showing usable elements(wrong about Deidara though ). Affinities are different. J-Man was shocked that Nagato had all _affinities_. Something that allowed him to use any jutsu at full potential. Back when Rinnegan/Rikudo was about ninjutsu mastery...


Yeah, anyone that has had an contact with Rikuodu chakra in general (e.g. Kakashi, Obito, Madara, Kaguya, Naruto and Sasuke) are automatically in tune with all natures. Otherwise, Kakashi wouldn't have the affinities he had listed.


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## Bonly (Jun 5, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I was addressing Turrin's post, for instance, he has Gaara using the lightning element, I'm not even sure Gaara can use anything other than wind or doton, whichever category the sand control falls into.



DB says Gaara can use Raitons so that should make you go from unsure to being sure.


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Is there a translated (into english) version of the DB? Because your earlier posts made it seem like you were just rubbing of the affinities.


Huh? No Clue what your trying to say bro. And you don't need the DB translated to english as you can read those charts. Also I can read Japanese so there's that as well lol.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 5, 2015)

Yeah, I've been in medical school for the last two years and my Japanese is extremely rusty, I forgot pretty much all the important kanji. I can still understand it as it is spoken but reading it is impossible. I need to see if there is an accurate english translation of the DB.

*Edit:* Translate the damn book for us then.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 5, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, anyone that has had an contact with Rikuodu chakra in general (e.g. Kakashi, Obito, Madara, Kaguya, Naruto and Sasuke) are automatically in tune with all natures. Otherwise, Kakashi wouldn't have the affinities he had listed.


It's not affinities... It's mastered chakra alterations. Kakashi can use Water and Earth. But his affinity is Lightning. 

Tobirama and Orochimaru have all. Why shouldn't Kakashi?

DB4 is mostly translated. .


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 5, 2015)

I'll find the link, but it was a blog post a couple of months ago that I read describing it as their affinities? Perhaps, you guys can straighten this out then.


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, I've been in medical school for the last two years and my Japanese is extremely rusty, I forgot pretty much all the important kanji. I can still understand it as it is spoken but reading it is impossible. I need to see if there is an accurate english translation of the DB.
> 
> *Edit:* Translate the damn book for us then.


I did translate a-lot of it 

But here I'll translate the part about the Elemental Chart:

*Natural Alterations Possessed*

'It shows the nature alterations that shinobi can operate. Including Fire, Wind, Water, Earth, and Lightning, Yin, Yang, the seven natures that exist. "

"Note - This shows the nature alterations possessed, but each shinobi's combat experience with them is mere conjecture, however they always have the ability to use that alteration"


-----

Simply put the chart states what alterations a person can use, not affinities. It does not states how skilled they are with each natural alteration in battle though, however they each can at the very least use that nature alteration to some extent. Basically having a Raiton affinity doesn't necessarily mean your as good as Kakashi at Raiton in battle, but you can perform some raiton abilities at the very least.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 5, 2015)

Well, Naruto after finishing waterfall cutting and right before starting with FRS would likely get the Wind icon(alongside Yang). Even without having Futon Ninjutsu.


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Well, Naruto after finishing waterfall cutting and right before starting with FRS would likely get the Wind icon(alongside Yang). Even without having Futon Ninjutsu.


Pretty sure water-fall cutting was considered a technique he could use in battle and it's not really at all different than Zaku's technique. He just never did, because Kishi realized wind blast fueled by Naruto's chakra would essentially be ST.


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2015)

> But here I'll translate the part about the Elemental Chart:
> 
> Natural Alterations Possessed
> 
> ...



which page is that, Turrin?


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## Alex Payne (Jun 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Pretty sure water-fall cutting was considered a technique he could use in battle and it's not really at all different than Zaku's technique. He just never did, because Kishi realized wind blast fueled by Naruto's chakra would essentially be ST.



I don't think it is that good - he was using multiple KBs at the time. But I see your point. It was unrefined Daitoppa basically. Something like that with either KN0 or SM would have been very strong.


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2015)

Hussain said:


> which page is that, Turrin?






Alex Payne said:


> I don't think it is that good - he was using multiple KBs at the time. But I see your point. It was unrefined Daitoppa basically. Something like that with either KN0 or SM would have been very strong.


But by the same tolkein he had clones out meaning his chakra was split and he was still parting different areas of the water fall. So when Naruto doesn't have his chakra split i expect it would be similar to Daitoppa and with KN0/SM as you said it would get ridiculous. And would basically be CST scale by the time of BM.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Lol all the characters on my list have that. Except for a few that are immune due to not breathing. So what are you talking about grimjow.
> 
> Maybe you haven't realize it yet but everyone and their mom has ether Raiiton or Preemptive senses at this point.



No I haven't realized it. 

Sasuke is a proficient raiton user, that is why he was able to deal with Deidara's bombs. He saw them in his veins and he ran a chidori through himself.

He also figured it out in Deidara's mind with the genjutsu prior to that. So he had a test run before the technique actually got him. Having sensory capabilities won't accomplish anything in most cases.

Your list is full of reaching and stretching. Granting Jiraiya a raiton toad ? Really ?


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## Alex Payne (Jun 5, 2015)

Raiton Toad meme go go

Raiton Toad too strong. J-Man in Base can kill both Kakuzu and Deidara with it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2015)

That should actually become a meme.

Whenever Jiraiya is in trouble, raiton toad saves his ass.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 5, 2015)

I tried


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## Trojan (Jun 5, 2015)

so mean. 
but funny tho (sorry Turrin, but that was funny. )


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 5, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> It's not affinities... It's mastered chakra alterations. Kakashi can use Water and Earth. But his affinity is Lightning.
> 
> Tobirama and Orochimaru have all. Why shouldn't Kakashi?
> 
> DB4 is mostly translated. .


Ahh okay, so Kakashi has mastered everything? Can he basically use anything he's seen up to the point where he lost his sharingan? And this means Itachi can use the wind element?


Oh wow the hiragana to read the kanji is still there, okay this isn't so bad to read then. I thought it was going to straight kanji with very few hiragana, basically the passage I had to translate for my final test.


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## Dr. Leonard Church (Jun 5, 2015)

Yeah, this matchup is too stacked against Sasori. Being IC with only Basic knowledge means Sasori doesn't have much incentive to go all-out with 3KK and 100 puppets. He's stuck in Hiruko firing shit that Deidara can easily dodge and/or block with his C1. But Deidara's IC tendency is to fly above the enemy and bomb them with C1, C2, etc., which isn't something Sasori can realistically prevent. C1  by itself might not be sufficient to kill Sasori but you can bet C2 or C3 will.

On the note of Raiton, I once again point out the issues of the OP matchup. Having only basic knowledge does not extend to anti-Raiton measures against Deidara and his IC tendencies means he won't pressure Deidara to reveal his Doton nature before he's in a bird, far out of Sasori's reach.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 5, 2015)

Sasori honestly wins this.

 Deidara already admitted inferiority to Sasori. That alone should be enough.

 In terms of feats, Sasori is by far the superior fighter in this match-up. He has superior stamina, Satetsu which is by far more threatening than Deidara's C1 and C2 due to it's unpredictability and the fact that Sasori manipulate it into any shape he wants. Satetsu also managed to tank Sakura's Chakra Enhanced Punch which implies it can tank the explosions of C1 and C2 relatively well. Even then, C2 would be relatively useless as it leaves Deidara completely immobile which leaves him susceptible to a blindside via Satetsu considering Sasuke managed it with 2 Shadow Shuriken and Sasori is by far a stronger aerial fighter in comparison to Sasuke.

 So, I don't see Deidara winning here. Sasori effectively counters C1 and overwhelms him with a mass production of Satetsu. I can see Deidara evading for a while before the scale of Sasori's Satetsu becomes far too great. If Deidara can seriously evade his strikes, he still loses due to over-consumption of clay sooner or later.

 Sasori takes this after a good few minutes.


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No I haven't realized it.
> 
> Sasuke is a proficient raiton user, that is why he was able to deal with Deidara's bombs. He saw them in his veins and he ran a chidori through himself.
> 
> He also figured it out in Deidara's mind with the genjutsu prior to that. So he had a test run before the technique actually got him. Having sensory capabilities won't accomplish anything in most cases.


Actually Sasuke simply avoided Deidara first C4 usage. Deidara only caught Sasuke with C4, with an elaborate Clone-Feint the worked due to Sasuke attempting to interrogate Deidara and being unaware Deidara's eye could see through Genjutsu. 

And Deidara's bombs do not require Chidori to difuse. The greatest bomb of all was countered by Omoi's Fodder Raiton.



> Your list is full of reaching and stretching.


You have yet to come close to even beginning to show why one of the characters on that list isn't well suited to dealing with C4. Instead you have simply complained about side notes, like a Toad probably having Raiton, which is irrelevant to the fact that C4 would be hard pressed to be effectual against Jiraiya regardless



> Granting Jiraiya a raiton toad ? Really ?


And when characters like Kankuro can use 4 Nature Alterations, most Jonin can use 2-3 natura alteration, etc.. are you really going to sit here and tell me it's unlikely that Fusaku, Shima, or any of the other dozen toads can use Raiton nature alteration. I mean come on Grimjow.

Not to mention it's a straw-man that I granted it to him, rather I simply said there probably is a Toad w/ Raiton, which after DBIV is simply the reality of the situation.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Actually Sasuke simply avoided Deidara first C4 usage. Deidara only caught Sasuke with C4, with an elaborate Clone-Feint the worked due to Sasuke attempting to interrogate Deidara and being unaware Deidara's eye could see through Genjutsu.
> 
> And Deidara's bombs do not require Chidori to difuse. The greatest bomb of all was countered by Omoi's Fodder Raiton.
> 
> ...


Granting a character something that he/she originally doesn't have just because you think is convenient is reaching. 
You've given Jiraiya Raiton toad just because you wanted to write his name on that list.

There are other examples like Hiashi. Like, what can he do about C4 even if he sees the micro bombs ? 

Omoi's fodder raiton ? Omoi is cloud shinobi who can use raiton proficiently.
And Deidara was  trying to make himself explode, so a raiton induced sword through his chest was able to stop him. Same strategy obviously won't stop millions of micro bombs running through your veins. They need to run a technique like chidori through their body to difuse the bombs.


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## Kai (Jun 5, 2015)

Darui is the one who inherited the black lightning, and while Omoi is a proficient Raiton and kenjutsu user in his own right, he probably doesn't have the shape manipulation necessary to withstand a full fight against Deidara's more elastic creations.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 5, 2015)

Kai said:


> Darui is the one who inherited the black lightning, and while Omoi is a proficient Raiton and kenjutsu user in his own right, he probably doesn't have the shape manipulation necessary to withstand a full fight against Deidara's more elastic creations.



Yeah, edited


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Granting a character something that he/she originally doesn't have just because you think is convenient is reaching.
> You've given Jiraiya Raiton toad just because you wanted to write his name on that list.


Straw-Man. Didn't give Jiraiya anything. Please learn the definition of "probably".

I put Jiraiya's name down due to his and his toads perception abilities.



> There are other examples like Hiashi. Like, what can he do about C4 even if he sees the micro bombs ?


Kaiten 
Hold breath until he physical escapes the radius like Sasuke did 



> Omoi's fodder raiton ? Omoi is cloud shinobi who can use raiton proficiently.


Omoi himself admits that he only knows a little Raiton:


Omoi than uses the most basic Raiton ability we've seen, generic Raiton-flow to counter Deidara's greatest Kibaku Nendo; CO:


That is literally on or bellow generic fodder-level, considering generic fodder in the war were using Basic Katon, Suiton, and Doton nature alterations.



> And Deidara was trying to make himself explode, so a raiton induced sword through his chest was able to stop him. Same strategy obviously won't stop millions of micro bombs running through your veins.


Raiton flow through your viens 

But I was more thinking using it to defuse the C4 bomb before it's detonated.



> They need to run a technique like chidori through their body to difuse the bombs.


There is no reason they need Chidori when basic raiton flow can defuse CO which is a much more powerful bomb than the individual C4 bombs.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 6, 2015)

^ I wouldn't necessarily consider it fodder Raiton. It's not comparable to more skilled users, but Omoi likely does have an affinity for Raiton which places it above the fodder level techniques that the other less skilled ninjaused.


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## Bonly (Jun 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ I wouldn't necessarily consider it fodder Raiton. It's not comparable to more skilled users, but Omoi likely does have an affinity for Raiton which places it above the fodder level techniques that the other less skilled ninjaused.



IIRC having an affinity for an element just means it's easier for the person to use it(as oppose for someone how doesn't) so even if Omoi has an affinity for Raitons, his Raiton flow could still be fodder level


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## StickaStick (Jun 6, 2015)

Deidara admitted Sasori was stronger and there's nothing here matchup-wise to give Deidara a game changing edge, so yeah.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 6, 2015)

Bonly said:


> IIRC having an affinity for an element just means it's easier for the person to use it(as oppose for someone how doesn't) so even if Omoi has an affinity for Raitons, his Raiton flow could still be fodder level



 Sure, but if it's easier to manipulate, then surely Omoi can apply greater chakra control to enhance the power of his Raiton.

 Those fodder ninja who managed to use Doton likely didn't have any experience. Omoi admitted he had some experience. That alone trumps no experience. His Raiton flow can be weak, but I don't think it's fair to compare it to the other fodder's capabilities in regards to nature manipulation.


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## Bonly (Jun 7, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sure, but if it's easier to manipulate, then surely Omoi can apply greater chakra control to enhance the power of his Raiton.



In theory? Sure.



> Those fodder ninja who managed to use Doton likely didn't have any experience. Omoi admitted he had some experience. That alone trumps no experience. His Raiton flow can be weak, but I don't think it's fair to compare it to the other fodder's capabilities in regards to nature manipulation.



Nothing suggest he shouldn't be compared to fodder's capabilities in regards to nature manipulation. Omoi himself is damn near fodder who barely got an extra screen time, hell what if a fodder has an affinity for Raiton just like Omoi who as he himself said "I know a little"? Would that fodder not have damn near the same ability to use Raiton flow on the same level as Omoi who knows a little? Omoi's Raiton flow can be fodder level, nothing wrong with that


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 8, 2015)

Dr. Leonard Church said:


> Yeah, this matchup is too stacked against Sasori. Being IC with only Basic knowledge means Sasori doesn't have much incentive to go all-out with 3KK and 100 puppets. He's stuck in Hiruko firing shit that Deidara can easily dodge and/or block with his C1. But Deidara's IC tendency is to fly above the enemy and bomb them with C1, C2, etc., which isn't something Sasori can realistically prevent. C1  by itself might not be sufficient to kill Sasori but you can bet C2 or C3 will.
> 
> On the note of Raiton, I once again point out the issues of the OP matchup. Having only basic knowledge does not extend to anti-Raiton measures against Deidara and his IC tendencies means he won't pressure Deidara to reveal his Doton nature before he's in a bird, far out of Sasori's reach.


Basically, how I feel about the whole battle, I don't see how Sasori can properly defend against the homing bombs, even Sasuke who is in the same tier of speed with a sharingan was caught off guard and had to transform in order to take the damage. Even if he jumps to the kazekage right away, the sand isn't a permanent defense like we saw against Gaara.


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## Bonly (Jun 8, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I don't see how Sasori can properly defend against the homing bombs,even Sasuke who is in the same tier of speed with a sharingan was caught off guard and had to transform in order to take the damage.



Deidara had Obito set up a bunch of mines underground, that's why he was forced to transform. Satetsu has shown it can float in the air which means Sasori can just avoid that situation.


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