# Best villian in current Shonen Jump?



## Fang (Nov 7, 2007)

Who is it? For what reasons would you say that they are the best villian between all these mangas?


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## NU-KazeKage (Nov 7, 2007)

Well im goin to say pain cause hes ...well ...god cant really beat that


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## Sasaki Kojirō (Nov 7, 2007)

Best villain as in the one the heroes are currently facing or just any villain in the current shounen jump?

Ok, out of the current ones I'm reading I think Moria/Oz are the best villains right now.

Overall though I really like Tyki Mikk from D. Gray Man.  He's a pretty complex character that's not at all your average sadistic psycho and his awakened form just looked awesome.


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## Fang (Nov 7, 2007)

Either and or. Doesn't really matter to me.


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## Akatora (Nov 7, 2007)

I suppose either Aizen or Mikk would be my choice.


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## Zephos (Nov 7, 2007)

I like the Chimera Ants a whole lot.
But Moria actually kicks ass if you ask me.


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## Ennoea (Nov 7, 2007)

The Ant King from HxH.


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## KLoWn (Nov 7, 2007)

Pain i guess, don't like Moria at all and im not to fond of that arrancar Ichigo/kenpachi's fighting atm.
I would say Konan, but since she got fucked over by Kishi i'll wait until she actually do something.


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## deathgod (Nov 7, 2007)

I'd have to give it to Aizen, Orochimaru  and Tikki, on second thought, I'd give it to the Ryodan from Hunter x Hunter


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## The Drunken Monkey (Nov 7, 2007)

Gaoh because he's a complete beast.


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## Akatora (Nov 7, 2007)

Shiro Amada said:


> Gaoh because he's a complete beast.



Win

he looks a bit like Blanka from Street Fighter
He ain't an epic villain, but for a sports manga he's great.


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## G-Man (Nov 7, 2007)

Current Shonen Jump?

Aizen (from Bleach) is the best villain so far with the Millenium Earl (from D.Gray-Man) being my pick for second (Tykki isn't alive anymore so he can't be second).

Past villains... I'm probably going to be the only one who thinks so, but I absolutely loved Papillion Mask (from Buso Renkin).  There was a man who made being a super villain look like fun!  

He didn't give a shit if people thought he looked like a freak, his transformation into a homuculus made him cut and he wanted to show it off, and he did things purely for his own entertainment or for the sake of giving himself a challenge!

Plus, he had hilarious lines despite not being a purely comedic villain.

Edit: I don't really think of Gaoh as a villain, though for a sports manga he is indeed a worthy bad guy.  Personally, I think the real villain in Hakuushuu is Marco, and even then, he isn't really villainous, just ruthless.  He doesn't cheat, commit illegal acts, or anything like that, so it's hard to call him a villain.


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## The Drunken Monkey (Nov 7, 2007)

Agon used to be my favorite sports villain. Until I saw the genius Marco and the beast Gaoh.


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## Kira U. Masaki (Nov 7, 2007)

Lucifer Kuro from HXH - hes very charismatic , and he held his own against killua's dad and grandad, plus he the head of one of the coolest groups
pain - rinnegan just seems to be such a badass ability


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## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Nov 7, 2007)

I'd go with Hisoka and Kuroro Lucifer from Hunter X Hunter.
and coming to OP, i think that moria+Oz combination has turned into something awesome too.

I still hold my judgement on Pein. He hasnot done enough to be called the best villian IMO.


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## Ork (Nov 7, 2007)

Tykki Miki by far. 
Gaoh is going to become good friends with the Daemon crowd after the game, you can see it coming, The mangaka even went to lengths to show gaoh isnt such a bad guy, He beat up the people who dissed weaker players.
As far as crushing players bones goes, marco is manipulating him.

Moriah is a giant fat teardrop. And he has a freaking house inside a giant FAT rotting corpse. If he was even VAGULY creepy or scary, and one piece wasnt quite so.. cartoony, He could win, as it is, he looks stupid, has a stupid ability, and does stupid things.

And his laugh is stupid too.

Aizen... Hard to say he has about one episodes TOTAL screentime or something, in which, admittedly he pwns ichigo, who as everyone should know by now, is a freaking pansy emo when not in hollow mode.

Papillon mask is just cool, he has style etc, but Imo he isnt evil enough, he ends up a sort of semi-rival/helper.

Orochimaru is creepy, and evil and all that, but he just isnt a complex character like tyki.

as for pain... lol. He's summoned three creatures and has yet ANOTHER lame Doujustu. Thats pretty much all he's done in the series so far.


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## Castiel (Nov 7, 2007)

G-Man said:


> being my pick for second (Tykki isn't alive anymore so he can't


wtf?

hm let me check current manga in wsj for current at the moment villains:

bleach: I want Noitra and the 8th espada to DIE, now.  I hate them.  I know nothing of the guy Byakuya's fighting.  Ulquiorra and Aizen would get my vote here but neither is doing antyhing atm.

d. gray man: no fighting right now, though both the earl and tykki would get my vote were this thread made weeks ago.

eyeshield 21: Gaoh and Marco are cool and ruthless but neither are really villains.  I mean what Rikku said to Monta when he called Hakashuu a bunch of cheaters still holds.

naruto: pein is good but right now he's only summoning.

one piece: moria/oz fight is probably the best current fight i've read recently

Hunter X Hunter: shit i'm still at the tower tournament where gon fights that spinning top guy for he 2nd time


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## Parallax (Nov 8, 2007)

Moria or the Chimera Ants.

The rest are all boring or unimaginative.


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## Jinnai (Nov 8, 2007)

Gecko Moria is my favorite current villain, 'cause of his interesting design and abilities.  I don't care much about Aizen, and Pein hasn't done much but has potential.  I don't really read any other SJ manga...


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## Chi (Nov 8, 2007)

Well, Kuroro isn't "current" villain, but he is really awesome.

Pain is actually pretty cool, so he takes the second place.

Don't like those arrancar guys.
Moria's design is ugly and his "robotic" OZ, kinda, sux..


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## Halcyon Dreamz (Nov 8, 2007)

From the ones that Ive read, Tyki Mikk is my personal favourite. Other than that, Orochimaru was a great villain before his demise and so was Agon from ES21. 

Pein would be there but hes still a bit too new of a villain for me and I need to see more of what he is capable of. The premise of capabilities is astounding and the amount of hype he generates make him a formidable villain but Id like to see him more first.


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## Byakuya (Nov 8, 2007)

Hitsugaya           .


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## SigbinPuti™ (Nov 8, 2007)

hisoka  well u really can't call him a villain
crocodile the evil pimp


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## Timur Lane (Nov 8, 2007)

Diego "Dio" Brando in Steel Ball Run.

Good villain with beliveable motives and funky abilites(he can turn into a fucking raptor, how awesomely weird isen't that?)


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## Danchou (Nov 8, 2007)

From the current villains, I'd have to say Meruem (The Ant King) from hunter x hunter. I like the fact that he is unfathomably strong, yet also very intelligent and deep. His motives and way of reasoning are much more interesting than those of other short term villains in SJ at the moment.


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## Sasuke_fanboy (Nov 8, 2007)

Gekko Moria is awsome. I'd put the King from HxH in second.


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## Aldric (Nov 8, 2007)

Gecko fucking Moria. By a landside. Great design (go read some shojos if you want your dose of sparkly eyed prettyboys you fruits), broken ability and hilarious personality. 

Worst villain is a tie between Pein and whoever the bland Bleach nerd is.


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## Timur Lane (Nov 8, 2007)

Who does not like Moria, he pulls of being both funny(read: very funny) and a threat to the Strawhats.

What is there to dislike?


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## El Torero (Nov 8, 2007)

Akatsuki FTW!


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## Blue (Nov 8, 2007)

deathgod said:


> I'd have to give it to Aizen, Orochimaru  and Tikki, on second thought, I'd give it to the Ryodan from Hunter x Hunter



My post to the last period.



> (go read some shojos if you want your dose of sparkly eyed prettyboys you fruits)


If I wanted something that ugly, I'd go watch Nightmare on Elm Street.


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## Aldric (Nov 8, 2007)

Timur Lane said:


> Who does not like Moria, he pulls of being both funny(read: very funny) and a threat to the Strawhats.
> 
> What is there to dislike?



But he's fat and ugly 

Where are my smooth looking fire controlling characters that seem to be out of some shitty visual rock band 



> If I wanted something that ugly, I'd go watch Nightmare on Elm Street.



I didn't know looking like Justin Timberlake was a prerequisite for being a good villain. Thanks for the heads up.

Incidentally I guess that means Freddy Krueger is a terrible villain.   BLUE IN IMPRESSIVE LOGICAL DISPLAY SHOCK


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## Yak (Nov 8, 2007)

Going for currently active villains I have to give it to Moria/Oz. Although I don't really frequently read One Piece, I did take a look at the last 10 or so chapters and fuck, Moria rocks. Very cool ability, very whacky but awesome design Oda chose for him.

As for possible main villains I have to give it to the Millenium Earl in DGM, going by his design, personality and performance so far I put him above Oro or Pein, above Aizen, above Meruem and above... well, whoever is going to be the big villain in One Piece from the current outlook.


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## Jicksy (Nov 8, 2007)

byakuran from hitman reborn he just awesome


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## Timur Lane (Nov 8, 2007)

Aldric said:


> But he's fat and ugly
> 
> Where are my smooth looking fire controlling characters that seem to be out of some shitty visual rock band



I miss mah bishonen's, craawllinng in myyyy skiiiiiin!!!!!!  

Seriously, hating Moria because he's fat and ugly is a really silly opinion. He is still in my opinion, one of the most memorable villains in a shonen manga for a long time.


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## SigbinPuti™ (Nov 8, 2007)

no one leaves quite an impression like the villains in one piece.


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## MdB (Nov 8, 2007)

Best: Crocodile without a fucking doubt. The shit he did to overthrow a nation, orchestrated a rebellion, deceived the general population of Alabasta when he was potrayed as a national hero was goddamn awesome.

In my eyes, The Earl from D. Gray-man hasn't shown enough to make him one of the best villians in current Shonen Jump.

Aizen is just shit after he turned from his nerdy look into another generic bishounen ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) with no personality.

As for Naruto, It's the same deal as Aizen. I'm not interested in robots who are there only to look pretty and cool. Especially when one of them is a giant douchebag called Pein.




Oh and Moria is fucking awesome.


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## Ork (Nov 8, 2007)

Timur Lane said:


> I miss mah bishonen's, craawllinng in myyyy skiiiiiin!!!!!!
> 
> Seriously, hating Moria because he's fat and ugly is a really silly opinion. He is still in my opinion, one of the most memorable villains in a shonen manga for a long time.



I'll admit he's memorable. That doesnt make him a good villian though. 
If you like your villians wacky, somewhat strange in the head, and very laughable, then Moria is for you. I just happen to prefer a more Villanou villian, One that you CAN'T laugh at. One thats a VILLIAN. Not a Comic relief during action scenes.

That said, I havent really liked any one piece villians, they're too... exaggerated.


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## Aldric (Nov 8, 2007)

I don't see how Moria can be considered as "comic relief during action scenes" as he spend the last half a dozen chapters absolutely ruining the Strawhats shit, either by greatly helping Odz with Kage Kakumei or by doing it himself (GG Robin), but ok.

And the way he uses deceit and trickery is pure classical villainy.


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## Blue (Nov 8, 2007)

I don't see why you're riding Moria's manhood so hard. 

Great, he's creative. We know. However, certain aspects of character design are necessary for most people to take a villian seriously. For instance, looking like a fucking retarded cross between Satan and a Brachiosaur is not conductive to taking him seriously as a villain. 
Ever wonder why the Phantom of the Opera wears a mask?
Because a mask is perferable to looking like shit.

If you can take him seriously, that's great. I can't. 

I would also point out that the Genei Ryoudan > Gecko in creativity, and still manages to be mostly attractive. Orochimaru stretches like a snake, rips his face off for fun, and pops swords out of his mouth, and he's still attractive. 

Aizen I admit I like mostly because he's awesome and pretty. But there's nothing wrong with that at all. Just like there's nothing wrong with you liking your... manbearpig thing.


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## MdB (Nov 8, 2007)

Aldric said:


> I don't see how Moria can be considered as "comic relief during action scenes" as he spend the last half a dozen chapters absolutely ruining the Strawhats shit, either by greatly helping Odz with Kage Kakumei or by doing it himself (GG Robin), but ok.
> 
> And the way he uses deceit and trickery is pure classical villainy.



Because having a goofy design with a unique personality equals joke villain. Who cares if he owned base Luffy with his fucking eyes closed in sleeping position not giving a shit nor lifting a finger. Who cares if he's a Shichibukai, a part one of the three great powers who hold the worlds balance stable. Who cares that he has a bounty higher than Luffy frozen for god knows how long.

He's still a joke villain because pretty boys are the way to go.


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## Aldric (Nov 8, 2007)

Blue said:


> I don't see why you're riding Moria's manhood so hard.
> 
> Great, he's creative. We know. However, certain aspects of character design are necessary for most people to take a villian seriously. For instance, looking like a fucking retarded cross between Satan and a Brachiosaur is not conductive to taking him seriously as a villain.
> Ever wonder why the Phantom of the Opera wears a mask?
> ...



el oh el at Togashi's designs being "creative".

So you weren't kidding when you said you were a shallow whore. Keep up the good work Paris Hilton.



> Because having a goofy design with a unique personality equals joke villain. Who cares if he owned base Luffy with his fucking eyes closed in sleeping position not giving a shit nor lifting a finger. Who cares if he's a Shichibukai, a part one of the three great powers who hold the worlds balance stable. Who cares that he has a bounty higher than Luffy frozen for god knows how long.
> 
> He's still a joke villain because pretty boys are the way to go.



Pretty much exactly what I think yeah.


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## Yak (Nov 8, 2007)

Absence said:


> I'll admit he's memorable. That doesnt make him a good villian though.
> If you like your villians wacky, somewhat strange in the head, and very laughable, then Moria is for you. I just happen to prefer a more Villanou villian, *One that you CAN'T laugh at. One thats a VILLIAN. Not a Comic relief during action scenes.*
> 
> That said, I havent really liked any one piece villians, they're too... exaggerated.



The only really nasty, mean, fucking hateable villain I currently can think of who's still doing his stuff right and doesn't fuck around is Noitra in Bleach. Seriously, that guy is just plain evil. He looks down on women, he beats down on children, he molests the Damsel in distress while kicking the main character in the face with his Alladin-boots, proceeds to break his ankles and then has his boar-friend beat the living shit out of him. He cheap-shots his comrades from the distance and mocks the main character while going out on him after Ichigo just exhausted himself completely against Grimmjaw. If that guy isn't mean, then I don't know who is. Additionally to that, he thinks he's the strongest.


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## Blue (Nov 8, 2007)

Aldric said:


> el oh el at Togashi's designs being "creative".
> 
> So you weren't kidding when you said you were a shallow whore. Keep up the good work Paris Hilton.


Paris Hilton?


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## Aldric (Nov 8, 2007)

Yeah, Paris Hilton. 

As in, you know, EWWW UR NOT PRETTY AND ATTRACTIVE I CANT TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY NOT LIKE TINKERBELL HES SO CUTE AWWW


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## Blue (Nov 8, 2007)

Yeah, I know you were going for the shallow whore angle.
It was just a little lame.

Oh well, like I said, to each their own.


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## KLoWn (Nov 8, 2007)

I lol everytime the OP fanwankers pull the "Bishie"-card when someone say he doesn't like Moria.


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## MdB (Nov 8, 2007)

I lol everytime when the Naruto fanwankers hate Moria because he doesn't look like there heroes Itachi, Pein and Sasuke.


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## Blue (Nov 8, 2007)

> I lol everytime when the Naruto fanwankers hate Moria because he doesn't look like there heroes Itachi, Pein and Sasuke.


Moria doesn't look like _anyone_.


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## Fang (Nov 8, 2007)

I lol at how Kishimoto completely dismantled Pein from being a bad ass to a joke and let down.


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## KLoWn (Nov 8, 2007)

Lord Kamina said:


> I lol everytime when the Naruto fanwankers hate Moria because he doesn't look like there heroes Itachi, Pein and Sasuke.


Maybe they just hate him cuz they think his design is fuckin horrible?
But wait, that's impossible right? Cuz it's Oda that's drawn it, so it MUST be epic! :amazed


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## Fang (Nov 8, 2007)

At least Oda doesn't draw the exact same character with tits like Karin being Sasuke with tits and a flat ass. Or that his manga isn't populated by bunson burning queer bishies in every crock and nanny.


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## Yak (Nov 8, 2007)

Blue said:


> Moria doesn't look like _anyone_.



I think there is a term for that. It's called 'originality'.


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## Aldric (Nov 8, 2007)

> Maybe they just hate him cuz they think his design is fuckin horrible?
> But wait, that's impossible right? Cuz it's Oda that's drawn it, so it MUST be epic!



So why are you whining about us mocking bishonen lovers? Not our fault the guys who hate Moria happen to be fans of run of the mill "cool" characters like Mihawk or Lucci or Kishimoto's garbage J-pop singers looking protagonists.

God forbid a cartoon character actually looks like a cartoon character and not the bland crap any weeaboo with down syndrome and a deviantart account (one generally goes with the other) could churn out. WOOOO YEAH JUUGO AWESOME


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## Senzairu (Nov 8, 2007)

Aizen is the best.


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## KLoWn (Nov 8, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> At least Oda doesn't draw the exact same character with tits like Karin being Sasuke with tits and a flat ass. Or that his manga isn't populated by bunson burning queer bishies in every crock and nanny.


Why do you even keep bringing up Naruto? No one thinks it has perfect characters?
And who gives a shit if Oda doesn't draw the same characters over and over, if it's shit it's shit, and Moria is shit.

Mr2 was is a perfect example of unique, funny and fuckin badass, Moria has failed in being all that so far.


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## MdB (Nov 8, 2007)

KLoWn said:


> Maybe they just hate him cuz they think his design is fuckin horrible?
> But wait, that's impossible right? Cuz it's Oda that's drawn it, so it MUST be epic! :amazed



Too bad a lot of people hate Oda's art style, unlike Kishimoto who even draws intolerable shit like Sasuke's shadeless face covering an entire page of extreme faggotry, yet there fine with it.

Oh shi-.....



Shiroi Kiba said:


> At least Oda doesn't draw the exact same character with tits like Karin being Sasuke with tits and a flat ass. Or that his manga isn't populated by bunson burning queer bishies in every crock and nanny.



Now that you mention it, that brainless slut looks exactly like Sasuke.


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## Blue (Nov 8, 2007)

Yak said:


> I think there is a term for that. It's called 'originality'.


Nobody is denying Moria is original. 
I mean, monkeys spattering shit on a canvas will produce something original too, but that's beside the point.

No, the issue is that all the Moria supporters instantly turn to being insulting to fans of Naruto and Bleach antagonists, because they look pretty.

First of all, sorry guys, but being pretty is not a bad thing, no matter how hard you try to spin it. If an attractive character has no substance, that means they have no substance, not that being attractive is bad.

Second of all, I think more important than a villian's looks is their behavior and, well, villiany. 
Nnotora is... not pretty. But he's a fairly awesome villian. Aizen IS pretty, and he's an awesome villian too.

So instead of screaming "Moria is awesome because he's ugly" - which is bullshit any way you look at it - perhaps you should explain why he's a good villian? Wait, you can't. He's comic relief.


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## KLoWn (Nov 8, 2007)

Lord Kamina said:


> Too bad a lot of people hate Oda's art style, unlike Kishimoto who even draws intolerable shit like Sasuke's shadeless face covering an entire page of extreme faggotry, yet there fine with it.
> 
> Oh shi-.....


And then there's people who think's Oda's artstyle is teh shit and still hates Moria's design, why is that?



Aldric said:


> So why are you whining about us mocking bishonen lovers? Not our fault the guys who hate Moria happen to be fans of run of the mill "cool" characters like Mihawk or Lucci or Kishimoto's garbage J-pop singers looking protagonists.
> 
> God forbid a cartoon character actually looks like a cartoon character and not the bland crap any weeaboo with down syndrome and a deviantart account (one generally goes with the other) could churn out. WOOOO YEAH JUUGO AWESOME


The fuck are you blabbering about?
People think Moria is shit cuz he hasn't done anything remotely interesting so far, and to top that off his design is ass, dunno why you people feel the need to bring up this bishie-crap all the time, getting old.


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## Fang (Nov 8, 2007)

KLoWn said:


> Why do you even keep bringing up Naruto? No one thinks it has perfect characters?
> And who gives a shit if Oda doesn't draw the same characters over and over, if it's shit it's shit, and Moria is shit.
> 
> Mr2 was is a perfect example of unique, funny and fuckin badass, Moria has failed in being all that so far.



Just like Pein is a complete failure and its making me root for Madara...despite being a GB member? Just like how Pein went from being a hard ass mother fucker to a whinny little shit who was hurt so much that he has a masochistic butt plug in his ass dominating his personality?

Oh noes, Pein is the most bad ass.


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## MdB (Nov 8, 2007)

KLoWn said:


> And then there's people who think's Oda's artstyle is teh shit and still hates Moria's design, why is that?



And there are people who like Naruto and still think Sasuke is a shitty character, why is that?


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## KLoWn (Nov 8, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Just like Pein is a complete failure and its making me root for Madara...despite being a GB member? Just like how Pein went from being a hard ass mother fucker to a whinny little shit who was hurt so much that he has a masochistic butt plug in his ass dominating his personality?
> 
> Oh noes, Pein is the most bad ass.


Your point being?



Lord Kamina said:


> And there are people who like Naruto and still think Sasuke is a shitty character, why is that?


Cuz he's shit, why are you asking me obvious crap like this?


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## Blue (Nov 8, 2007)

Lord Kamina said:


> And there are people who like Naruto and still think Sasuke is a shitty character, why is that?


Nobody mentioned Sasuke, yet you brought him up. Why is that?


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## MdB (Nov 8, 2007)

KLoWn said:


> Cuz he's shit, why are you asking me obvious crap like this?



You where the one who started with this obvious bullshitting Red Herring crap genius.


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## Fang (Nov 8, 2007)

KLoWn said:


> Your point being?



If you fancy Pein is better then Moria, you better figure out points to actually prove it.


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## Blue (Nov 8, 2007)

Lord Kamina said:


> You where the one who started with this obvious bullshitting Red Herring crap genius.


You're shaming Kamina's name. Silence.


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## MdB (Nov 8, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> If you fancy Pein is better then Moria, you better figure out points to actually prove it.


He's another angsty character with a god complex. What's not to like? 



Blue said:


> You're shaming Kamina's name. Silence.



more shameful than someone who pretends to be a girl/women but isn't? Impossible......


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## Yak (Nov 8, 2007)

Blue said:


> Nobody is denying Moria is original.
> I mean, monkeys spattering shit on a canvas will produce something original too, but that's beside the point.
> 
> No, the issue is that all the Moria supporters instantly turn to being insulting to fans of Naruto and Bleach antagonists, because they look pretty.
> ...



I do get what you are saying, the problem here is that a lot of the generic bishi-characters and villains tend to have the same generic shonen personality which gets pretty damn boring after you've read like 3 to 4 series. 

I for my part like Moria. His design is unique and he is not pretty, true, but he's a change. Personality-wise he's probably the joking-type character, but so what, the Joker in the DC Comics is too, additionally to that, he's a complete nutcase and a genius which makes him interesting. Not saying that Moria is the same but he also isn't around for that long in One Piece yet, I say we wait. Some people like him and think he has a rather intimmidating side to him, others think he's just a fat ugly clown with some broken powers. As you said yourself, to each their own.

Again, in my opinion he is interesting and I like him, for some reason to me he gives of the same vibe like Dai Amon in Bastard!!, who isn't particularly pretty himself but rather looks like a huge hulking wrestler with corpse-paint of a thrid-class Black Metal Band and frankly, he's kind of a joking character too yet in his own way he is undeniable awesome.


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## Fang (Nov 8, 2007)

Moria reminds me of Akuman from DB. That's a good thing to me.


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## KLoWn (Nov 8, 2007)

Lord Kamina said:


> You where the one who started with this obvious bullshitting Red Herring crap genius.


I asked you why you think that people who love OP still hate Morias design, why did you even bring Sasuke up?



Shiroi Kiba said:


> If you fancy Pein is better then Moria, you better figure out points to actually prove it.


He's another angsty character with a god complex. What's not to like?


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## Fang (Nov 8, 2007)

So...unoriginal, uninteresting and generic makes him better then Moria how? I get nostalgia reading OP because it reminds me of DB. Moria most especially reminds me of Akuman manga that Toriyama did in the early 90's.


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## MdB (Nov 8, 2007)

KLoWn said:


> I asked you why you think that people who love OP still hate Morias design, why did you even bring Sasuke up?



Why did you think? Because everything that is drawn with the generic disgusting Shounen style consist of almost nothing but bishies? And why did you bring Oda's art to the topic and how everything he draws must be epic?


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## Aldric (Nov 8, 2007)

Blue said:


> First of all, sorry guys, but being pretty is not a bad thing, no matter how hard you try to spin it. If an attractive character has no substance, that means they have no substance, not that being attractive is bad.



Actually yes, being "pretty" is bad when you're supposed to be an antagonist, aka someone who's supposed to look powerful and threatening. Between some frail, supermodel looking douchebag and a 10 feet tall stitched up ugly demon I know which one looks the most menacing.



> Second of all, I think more important than a villian's looks is their behavior and, well, villiany.
> Nnotora is... not pretty. But he's a fairly awesome villian. Aizen IS pretty, and he's an awesome villian too.



You have yet to criticize Moria's personality. Probably because you know nothing about it. All you did was comment on how ugly he looks, which is pretty much the definition of shallow.

Moria is sardonic, contemptuous, manipulative, highly intelligent (he outwitted Robin), with a clear disdain for human life, and is obviously extremely powerful, being one of the Seven Armed Seas and with a frozen bounty superior to that of Luffy. All attributes of a great villain.



> So instead of screaming "Moria is awesome because he's ugly" - which is bullshit any way you look at it - perhaps you should explain why he's a good villian? Wait, you can't. He's comic relief.



This kind of comment shows your complete and utter unability to put up a semi convincing argument (no one ever said Moria was awesome because he was ugly, shitty strawman ahoy) as well as your ignorance of the One Piece manga. Which could bring some people to the conclusion that you're a fucking idiot. OF COURSE, I'm not one of these people.


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## KLoWn (Nov 8, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> So...unoriginal, uninteresting and generic makes him better then Moria how? I get nostalgia reading OP because it reminds me of DB. Moria most especially reminds me of Akuman manga that Toriyama did in the early 90's.


He fits my taste in characters better than Moria, it's just that simple.
I love most of Oda's desgins, but i ain't gonna start loving something i think looks like shit just because he's "unique". He hasn't done anything interesting yet either i might add, lready said that but have to say it again.



Lord Kamina said:


> Why did you think? Because everything that is drawn with the generic disgusting Shounen style consist of almost nothing but bishies? And why did you bring Oda's art to the topic and how everything he draws must be epic?


Too bad for you then, i like the style.
And i brought it up cuz that's how you make it sound like every fuckin time someone says he doesn't like OP's design or whatever.


----------



## Fang (Nov 8, 2007)

No one is. Your hammering on Moria because he doesn't confirm to a bishie design like most of the villians in Naruto. Your not even judging him on his personality or characteristics as an antagonist, just on the basis of his appereance.


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## MdB (Nov 8, 2007)

KLoWn said:


> Too bad for you then, i like the style.
> And i brought it up cuz that's how you make it sound like every fuckin time someone says he doesn't like OP's design or whatever.



Hello there Straw Man fallacy.


----------



## KLoWn (Nov 8, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> No one is. Your hammering on Moria because he doesn't confirm to a bishie design like most of the villians in Naruto. Your not even judging him on his personality or characteristics as an antagonist, just on the basis of his appereance.



No, i don't like him cuz he's boring.


Lord Kamina said:


> Hello there Straw Man fallacy.


Hi.


----------



## Taleran (Nov 8, 2007)

Blue said:


> So instead of screaming "Moria is awesome because he's ugly" - which is bullshit any way you look at it - perhaps you should explain why he's a good villian? Wait, you can't. He's comic relief.




Moria is an awesome villain because hes a disgusting Shadow full sewn up monster, who is savage and whose creations are also Savage, hes threatened and feared by the WG,and on top of that hes hilarious

and I can't even compare him to the Peter Pan wannabe and Zaien from Bleach because he blows em both out the water


----------



## MdB (Nov 8, 2007)

Concession accepted.


----------



## Blue (Nov 8, 2007)

If I could beat every me-too bonehead who thinks hating Naruto makes them cool with a rake, I would. 

Nobody is even talking about Naruto and this whole thread is "OMG PEIN SUCKS SO HARD SO DOES ITACHI AND SO DOES SASUKE ROFLROFLROFL"

Like it's not even worth debating.


----------



## KLoWn (Nov 8, 2007)

Lord Kamina said:


> Concession accepted.


Whatever you say


----------



## Taleran (Nov 8, 2007)

well technically right now all 3 of those characters are in their own failing ways villains and unless I'm mistaken this topic is about villains in Shounen Jump



and noone is looking for your approval of coolness Blue get over yourself


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## MdB (Nov 8, 2007)

KLoWn said:


> Whatever you say



Conceding sure is hard AMIRITE....


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## Blue (Nov 8, 2007)

Taleran said:


> well technically right now all 3 of those characters are in their own failing ways villains and unless I'm mistaken this topic is about villains in Shounen Jump


We're talking about Moria. Instead of debating his merits as a villain, we're talking about how Pein is emo and Karin is Sasuke with breasts. 

Come on now.


> and noone is looking for your approval of coolness Blue get over yourself


Nor I theirs. But you can't deny there's a big Anti-Naruto sentiment going on here for no good reason.


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## KLoWn (Nov 8, 2007)

Lord Kamina said:


> Conceding sure is hard AMIRITE....


If you say so


----------



## Aldric (Nov 8, 2007)

Blue said:


> We're talking about Moria. Instead of debating his merits as a villain, we're talking about how Pein is emo and Karin is Sasuke with breasts.



How about you reply to my post about Moria's "merits as a villain" instead of hopelessly clinging to the "BOO HOO HOO Y U BE HATIN NARUTO" stitch to try and hide the painfully obvious fact you have no idea what you're talking about?


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## Supa Swag (Nov 8, 2007)

This thread took an interesting turn.


----------



## Blue (Nov 8, 2007)

Aldric said:


> How about you reply to my post about Moria's "merits as a villain" instead of hopelessly clinging to the "BOO HOO HOO Y U BE HATIN NARUTO" stitch to try and hide the painfully obvious fact you have no idea what you're talking about?



Burden of proof's on you, kid.


----------



## Aldric (Nov 8, 2007)

What burden of proof? What the fuck?


----------



## Fang (Nov 8, 2007)

Aldric said:


> What burden of proof? What the fuck?



Who knows?


----------



## MdB (Nov 8, 2007)

What burden of proof? Last time I checked that shit, you can't prove a negative when you already proofed a positive.


----------



## Parallax (Nov 8, 2007)

Seriously blue, what are you talking about?


----------



## Yak (Nov 8, 2007)

This is not the Outskirts Battledome.


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## Fang (Nov 8, 2007)

This is Sparta!


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## gundampiece (Nov 8, 2007)

If we're talking about a battle of pretty characters Reborn! solos. So many bishies I'd fap to in that series.


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## Fang (Nov 8, 2007)

^ That's disgusting. 

Seriously though aside from Moria and Croc, the only villian I like is Noitora. Pein/Nagato was fine until Kishimoto turned him into a super version of Sasuke with a counter to the Sharingan/MS with the Rin'negan.


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## Mukuro (Nov 8, 2007)

Millennium Earl! Oyasuminasai! !!!!!!!!! Konbanwa!


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## Psychogenic (Nov 8, 2007)

Millenium Earl.

He's weirdly unique.


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## gundampiece (Nov 8, 2007)

Nnoitra is awesome. Easily the best villain to date in Bleach. I was liking Pein too untill he got that emo backstory, ruined him imo.


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## Supa Swag (Nov 8, 2007)

lol @ Pein.

"I call myself Pein because pain makes the world go round and I feel pain to get more pain to give more pain that creates more pain for everyone. See all my piercings? Thats how much pain I'm in. Now excuse me while I go slit my wrists to bring more pain."


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## kaz (Nov 8, 2007)

XANXUS.

Two reasons:


*Spoiler*: __ 





"I FUCKING SKATE ON MY ENEMIES!"




and...


*Spoiler*: __ 





"I GOT MORE FASHION TIPS THAN VOGUE!"


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## Mukuro (Nov 8, 2007)

Lolololol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Aldric (Nov 8, 2007)

Kitty Litter said:


> lol @ Pein.
> 
> "I call myself Pein because pain makes the world go round and I feel pain to get more pain to give more pain that creates more pain for everyone. See all my piercings? Thats how much pain I'm in. Now excuse me while I go slit my wrists to bring more pain."



And by gathering everyone's pain he'll become... A GOD.

You couldn't make up that shit. It's like something out of a fanfiction written by a 11 year old who just beat some garbage generic japanese rpg.


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## Fang (Nov 8, 2007)

Sounds like you just described Mashai Kishimoto, Aldric.


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## MdB (Nov 8, 2007)

Just wait until Pein's true form is that of a bishounen ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) with long grey hair, that reveals another backstory where he finds out that a extraterrestrial lifeform that he calls ''mother'' enhanced his combat strength.

Just wait it will happen.


----------



## Parallax (Nov 8, 2007)

Lord Kamina said:


> Just wait until Pein's true form is that of a bishounen ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) with long grey hair, that reveals another backstory where he finds out that a extraterrestrial lifeform that he calls ''mother'' enhanced his combat strength.
> 
> Just wait it will happen.



Why would you want something this evil to happen


----------



## Ork (Nov 8, 2007)

Blue said:


> I don't see why you're riding Moria's manhood so hard.
> 
> Great, he's creative. We know. However, certain aspects of character design are necessary for most people to take a villian seriously. For instance, looking like a fucking retarded cross between Satan and a Brachiosaur is not conductive to taking him seriously as a villain.




This is one of things I'm trying to say, the other is, to be honest, Gekko Moria is lazy. He's lounging around, and he isnt even an epic Villian yet, He's like... one Arc's main evil. Out of what... 7? Even if Pein is an emo, and has motivations as shallow as Sasuke, At least he's the MAIN villian of the Naruto series. 

Tykki miki has been one of the main Villians of D.Gray man for the entire series, Light was the main Villian for the Death Note series.

Moria has been around for less than 1/7th of the One piece Story in total. 
Not to mention he's lazy, and fat, and likes to laugh, and he has to tell everyone what he's going to do to them, what his abilities are, and pretty much explain to them how to counter. "Oh look, I can swap places with my shadow, Now, if you didn't know that, I've told you! GO ME!"
He even freaking explained how Oz was stretching, so the Straw hat crew could figure out a counter, he just ISNT THAT SMART.

These are personal points of mine, that I think would be condusive to making a good villian:

1) He has to be of character design, and of character, that you just can't freaking laugh at him every time you see him.

2) He has to have Motivations, And Not Peins Bull, I mean a real REASON.
The more complex the better. 

3) Ugly is fine, Ugly is even GOOD in some cases, it can tie into reason 2, it can just be there for effect to make him scarier, or harder to emphasise with... well, it goes on.

4) EVIL. Not, Misunderstood, Not Stupid and being manipulated, Not an Antihero. EVIL.

5) Originality, This can Tie into 2, 3, and 1.  By originality I don't mean make him look like a doofus, I don't mean give him a REALLY annyoing stupid laugh, I mean, Originality, he should have something not seen before. 

These are just my personal points.

And sasuke is a shallow, and a crappy bad guy, Naruto is a Blonde through and through, Pein is an emo, Ichigo sucks, Aizen has had about 2-3 eps screentime in total, in which he pwned someone who sucks, which doesnt say much for him.

I hate the "shounen Trinity" They annoy me, All of them have gone on longer than they needed to, and been dragged out till there's just nothing new I can really see coming, In naruto, we get yet ANOTHER DOUJUTSU! WOW! And Jiraya can do something ELSE WITH TOADS! WOOT!
Bleach... Screw that I'm not even commenting. And as for One piece, Remove the Entire skypeia arc, Trim all the worthless plotless episodes in between arcs, and Get to a conclusion soon and perhaps, it would be worth watching, as it is, the franchise in all three is still going strong, so they're gonna keep on continuing. 300+ Chapters of a manga is NOT NECESSARY to tell a story, no matter HOW complex.

./rant off

Go Tykki.


----------



## Fang (Nov 8, 2007)

Parallax said:


> Why would you want something this evil to happen



Kishimoto combines powers with something as massively over-rated and wanked as Sephiroth!? 

The world is over!


----------



## tictactoc (Nov 8, 2007)

Best villain in current shonen jump ? Too early to say if Pein will be a good villain. Aizen is meh :/ Moria is fucking filler.
Millenium Earl is cool I guess :/


----------



## Fang (Nov 8, 2007)

Moria is filler? He is one of the more powerful members of the Seven Warlords of the Three Great Powers.


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## Ork (Nov 8, 2007)

tictactoc said:


> Best villain in current shonen jump ? Too early to say if Pein will be a good villain. Aizen is meh :/ Moria is fucking filler.
> Millenium Earl is cool I guess :/



It took me like four pages to say the same thing, you pwn.


----------



## Parallax (Nov 8, 2007)

tictactoc said:


> Best villain in current shonen jump ? Too early to say if Pein will be a good villain. Aizen is meh :/ Moria is fucking filler.
> Millenium Earl is cool I guess :/



Moria is filler?  It's cool if you don't like him, but filler?  What makes you think that?


Also, why are people forgetting the Chimera Ants and the King?  Seriously, great villains.


----------



## Aldric (Nov 8, 2007)

Absence said:


> Not to mention he's lazy, and fat, and likes to laugh, and he has to tell everyone what he's going to do to them, what his abilities are, and pretty much explain to them how to counter. "Oh look, I can swap places with my shadow, Now, if you didn't know that, I've told you! GO ME!"
> He even freaking explained how Oz was stretching, so the Straw hat crew could figure out a counter, he just ISNT THAT SMART.



Yeah, how stupid of him to explain his powers, the Strawhats sure found a way to counter him after they heard about what the Kage Kage fruit could do... Oh wait no they couldn't they got fucking wasted.

I mean you're going to tell me Robin wouldn't have tried to clutch him if he didn't explain Kage Kakumei? You can't be serious. And Kagemusha would have been figured out by the Strawhats anyway, Oda just saved some panel space by having Moria explain it straight away without waiting for the Strawhats to understand how he switched positions with his shadow.

Moria proved he was intelligent enough by tricking Luffy or owning Robin. He just doesn't mind about unveiling his powers since he thinks the Strawhats are no threat to him, and for the moment the events in the manga back him up.


----------



## Ork (Nov 8, 2007)

Aldric said:


> Yeah, how stupid of him to explain his powers, the Strawhats sure found a way to counter him after they heard about what the Kage Kage fruit could do... Oh wait no they couldn't they got fucking wasted.
> 
> I mean you're going to tell me Robin wouldn't have tried to clutch him if he didn't explain Kage Kakumei? You can't be serious. And Kagemusha would have been figured out by the Strawhats anyway, Oda just saved some panel space by having Moria explain it straight away without waiting for the Strawhats to understand how he switched positions with his shadow.
> 
> Moria proved he was intelligent enough by tricking Luffy or owning Robin. He just doesn't mind about unveiling his powers since he thinks the Strawhats are no threat to him, and for the moment the events in the manga back him up.



So what your saying is, yes he DID reveal his abilities, an important tactical advantage, but it wasnt Stupidity, it was stupidity and Overconfidence? And dude, tricking Luffy does NOT make you intelligent .

And before you say "Why is it overconfidence, he pwnt them" We ALL know, that he's going to lose. He's an Arc villian in a Shonen magazine. He's going down dude.   A villian who explains everything he's doing to his enemies is, frankly, an idiot.

And remember when I was talking about reasons? I forget Moria's reasons again, but he's making a zombie army to take over the world. Wow. Cliche. Originality please?


----------



## Aldric (Nov 8, 2007)

But there's no tactical advantage. It's not like the Strawhats could do anything against Kage Kakumei even when they heard about the way it worked. So why not telling them? Same with Kagemusha, once he showed the technique even the biggest idiot could have figured out he switched position with his shadow. Tricking Luffy may not make you intelligent, but fucking with Robin's mind certainly does.

And I don't see what the fact he's going to lose has to do with anything. Your point was he was an idiot to reveal his power cause it could give his opponents an advantage over him. It obviously wasn't the case as his power isn't something that can be countered just because you have some knowledge about it. Hence your whole argument holds no water.


----------



## tictactoc (Nov 8, 2007)

Moria just doesn't do it for me. He was cool in the beginning, but Oda fucked his design up, and I'm growing tired of this arc. And I seriously don't care if Moria is the storongest, Baggy the jobber was more interesting than him :/


----------



## Ork (Nov 8, 2007)

Aldric said:


> But there's no tactical advantage. It's not like the Strawhats could do anything against Kage Kakumei even when they heard about the way it worked. So why not telling them? Same with Kagemusha, once he showed the technique even the biggest idiot could have figured out he switched position with his shadow. Tricking Luffy may not make you intelligent, but fucking with Robin's mind certainly does.
> 
> And I don't see what the fact he's going to lose has to do with anything. Your point was he was an idiot to reveal his power cause it could give his opponents an advantage over him. It obviously wasn't the case as his power isn't something that can be countered just because you have some knowledge about it. Hence your whole argument holds no water.



So there's NO tactical advantage for him to keep his abilities secret, to not tell Robin why her abiltiy doesnt work on him, to not Explain why the giant can stretch, to not Explain his motivations, to not revealing his hiding spot... none? And of COURSE, Gekko knows EVERYTHING about the strawhats, he automatically understands all their abilities, Their powers, What they can do, how they can do it... Wait, no he doesnt, because Robins power suprised him. 

Basically, He Gave away tons of  his advantages, whithout knowing what his enemies abilities and strength were.

Smart eh? He's freaking Brilliant, how did he Fuck with Robins mind? He Beat her up, that doesnt make you a brilliant tactician dude.

Moria is doing the same thing that all Cliched crap Evil villians in manga do, Underestinmating his opponents. And Then Luffy is going to come back and pwn him, and Gekko will be all "OMG NO HOW CAN THIS BE!"

And I'll just laugh. He could have just freaking stayed hidden till the sun came up. Thats all it would take for him to win.


----------



## Parallax (Nov 8, 2007)

Absence said:


> So what your saying is, yes he DID reveal his abilities, an important tactical advantage, but it wasnt Stupidity, it was stupidity and Overconfidence? And dude, tricking Luffy does NOT make you intelligent .
> 
> And before you say "Why is it overconfidence, he pwnt them" We ALL know, that he's going to lose. He's an Arc villian in a Shonen magazine. He's going down dude.   A villian who explains everything he's doing to his enemies is, frankly, an idiot.
> 
> And remember when I was talking about reasons? I forget Moria's reasons again, but he's making a zombie army to take over the world. Wow. Cliche. Originality please?



How often is Luffy tricked in a battle where he is serious?


----------



## Sasaki Kojirō (Nov 8, 2007)

I forgot about Genei Ryodan and Hisoka when I posted originally..I would go with them for overall best villains.  I haven't read the ant arc yet though.

Moria has grown on me a lot, but his power is almost too cheap now that he can apparently just clip your shadow whenever he wants.


----------



## Taleran (Nov 8, 2007)

I'm pretty sure Pein is already as close to as lame as Seph as he can get without a 7 foot Sword


I want to become God by causing others pain, I mean HELLO!



and yeah for me its a toss up between Moria and Merum


----------



## Vandal Savage (Nov 8, 2007)

Some of the posts in this thread made have given me the best laughs in a while. 

I have to say that Gecko Moria is owning right now and the Millenium Earl is high on my list.

Aizen isn't really doing anything right now so I would say that Noi is the most villain like though I don't particularly care for him.

I actually like Pein but he is not comparing right now. He needs more time.

I seriously need to catch up on my Hunter X Hunter though.


----------



## Megaharrison (Nov 8, 2007)

Lol, this thread is hilarious. People bash Pain to high Hell and praise Moria equally. As apparently, if you're "bishi" and have even a hint of motivation for your goals, you're a horrible emo ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".). If you are a talking banana who is evil because the author said so, then you're awesome! People are just saying it's great that Moria is fat, ugly, and stupid because they will bone anything Oda throws their way. If Pain was introduced in One Piece, he would easily be hailed as the greatest villain ever as he'd actually have some depth.

And yes yes, I know what's coming. "OMG Pain doesn't have any depth! HE'S EMO GRAGH!" but seriously, "emo" today is just a codeword for "villain who had a traumatic past and now justifies why he's doing what he's doing". Kishimoto does this for his villains while Oda has them be evil for the Hell of it. I guess you got a nature vs. nurture thing going and I guess much of the fanbase prefers villains who are evil just because.

Of course that's just speculation. Everyone loves King (from HxH) despite doing things that would condemn him as "Emo" if he were in Naruto. Such as questioning his own actions, or showing attachment to another living thing. I think this is part of a immense double standard, but that's an entirely different issue. And for the record, I think King is an amazing villain. Mainly due to him having a personality and some depth and not just being the old "HAR HAR! I'M GOING TO SHOOT YOU....BECAUSE!"

Did I just criticize One Piece? OMFG SOMEONE GET THE FEATHERS!

Anyway, I like Aizen the most. The "End of Hypnosis" segment of Bleach was one of the most amazing series of chapters in SJ. And though Tite has fucked up Bleach Aizen has for the most part remained undamaged. After that, Pain, King, then the Millennium Earl.


----------



## Fang (Nov 8, 2007)

Parallax said:


> Moria is filler?  It's cool if you don't like him, but filler?  What makes you think that?
> 
> 
> Also, why are people forgetting the Chimera Ants and the King?  Seriously, great villains.



Sir Crocodile all!


----------



## Aldric (Nov 8, 2007)

Absence said:


> So there's NO tactical advantage for him to keep his abilities secret



Please explain how him not talking about Shadow Revolution would have made any difference in the fight.



> to not tell Robin why her abiltiy doesnt work on him



Yeah, cause telling her why her ability doesn't work on him just before cutting her shadow and making her fall unconscious for three days is a huge tactical blunder. SARCASM HAS BEEN HIDDEN IN THIS POST, WILL YOU BE ABLE TO FIND IT? ITS A FUN GAME TO PLAY



> to not Explain why the giant can stretch



It changed nothing to the fight. As soon as Moria showed up in Odz's belly Moria was the Strawhats' target. Zoro knew Moria had something to do with Odz stretching before Moria explained Kage Kakumei. Robin would have tried to clutch him either way. You have no point.



> to not Explain his motivations, to not revealing his hiding spot... none?



What in the blue hell are you blabbering about. Motivations? As for his "hiding spot" if you're talking about him showing himself in Odz belly that's actually part of his overconfidence. He clearly despises the Strawhats, provoking them by telling them they have a chance to beat him. Personally I think it's a great part of his character, and it's not like he was wrong to feel that way since he wiped them off effortlessly.



> And of COURSE, Gekko knows EVERYTHING about the strawhats, he automatically understands all their abilities, Their powers, What they can do, how they can do it... Wait, no he doesnt, because Robins power suprised him.



He understands they can't counter his shadow controlling powers. And he's right.



> Basically, He Gave away tons of his advantages, whithout knowing what his enemies abilities and strength were.



He didn't give away shit. The Strawhats knew he was the one responsible for Odz stretching and would have targeted him either way. Once Kage Kakumei was revealed they couldn't do anything to stop it cause there's nothing to do except removing Doppelman from Odz's shadow (which is impossible for someone who can't grab shadows, and Moria knows there's no two devil fruits alike in the world so he was safe) or attack Moria himself, which would have been done even if they didn't know about this particular technique. Kagemusha was revealed as soon as he was forced to use it against Robin. You still have no point.



> Smart eh? He's freaking Brilliant, how did he Fuck with Robins mind? He Beat her up, that doesnt make you a brilliant tactician dude.



He stalled her long enough to materialize Doppelman behind her then made her think she killed him before taking her by surprise and cutting her shadow. So yeah he's pretty fucking smart.


----------



## Ork (Nov 8, 2007)

Aldric said:


> Please explain how him not talking about Shadow Revolution would have made any difference in the fight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fanboybaiting is great. To be succint, you are purposefully misreading what I say, Moria Is Understimating his opponents, who have killed another of the Shichibukai, He's giving away tactical advantages because he's underestimating his opponents, IRREGARDLESS of what actually happened, thats overconfidence. Overconfidence is a villians greatest weakness.

To summarise: He's fat, Ugly, has a stupid laugh, underestimates his opponents, can outsmart luffy, doesnt even take advantage of his own abilities (Killing the entire crew once the sun comes up, all he has to do is stay hidden) And he's lazy too, if you watch from the begginining when he's always lying around doing nothing. 

How did he outsmart robin? He overpowered her, She broke the neck of his shadow, he wasnt playing dead, he was moving to the place his shadow was at, Thats not smart, thats survival instinct. He then beat her up. He didn't fuck with her mind, he suprised her and suckerpunched her.


----------



## Fang (Nov 8, 2007)

Crocodile isn't dead.


----------



## Ork (Nov 8, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Crocodile isn't dead.



Crocodile was a pimp  , and as far as I can tell, he's the strongest pimp in anime/manga. Find me a stronger pimp!

Who's that guy in your sig btw? He looks like the devil. In satanic kendo Gear.


----------



## Aldric (Nov 8, 2007)

> Fanboybaiting is great. To be succint, you are purposefully misreading what I say, Moria Is Understimating his opponents, who have killed another of the Shichibukai, He's giving away tactical advantages because he's underestimating his opponents, IRREGARDLESS of what actually happened, thats overconfidence. Overconfidence is a villians greatest weakness.



You failed to adress my points about these "tactical advantages" not being tactical advantages at all. Garbage. Don't bother replying if you have nothing to say.



> To summarise: He's fat, Ugly, has a stupid laugh, underestimates his opponents, can outsmart luffy, doesnt even take advantage of his own abilities (Killing the entire crew once the sun comes up, all he has to do is stay hidden) And he's lazy too, if you watch from the begginining when he's always lying around doing nothing.



HES FATTY MCUGLY AND HAS DUMMY LAUGH what the fuck is that elementary school?

As for staying hidden to kill the crew it's pretty obvious him helping Odz is the best way to get rid of the Strawhats since their combo knocked 7 of them out cold, which means they couldn't run into a dark place and hid anymore. Not to mention they aren't all shadowless.

He's lazy? So when he does nothing he's worthless and when he actually takes part in fights it's still not good enough for your majesty. Makes sense.



> How did he outsmart robin? He overpowered her, She broke the neck of his shadow, he wasnt playing dead, he was moving to the place his shadow was at, Thats not smart, thats survival instinct. He then beat her up. He didn't fuck with her mind, he suprised her and suckerpunched her.



He screamed when Doppelman's neck got snapped to lure Robin into thinking he was out. He also talked to her to gain some time when Doppelman was regenerating behind her. That was good strategy from his part whether you like it or not.

Anyway, I'm done. Gave all my arguments and would simply repeat myself like a parrot now.


----------



## Ork (Nov 8, 2007)

Hey, I'm not going to argue with you anymore, Its not worth any more of my day to rag on a pathetic villian Like moria, and argue with his fanboys. Either way, he makes me want to laugh every time I see him, and he doesnt make it as a villian.

(seriously, fanboyism is worse than a roach infestation, at least you can kill the roaches  )


----------



## Aldric (Nov 8, 2007)

I'm a Moria fanboy alright but it doesn't change the fact your arguments suck prodigious amounts of ass.


----------



## Ork (Nov 8, 2007)

Aldric said:


> I'm a Moria fanboy alright but it doesn't change the fact your arguments suck prodigious amounts of ass.



What part? Do tell. And make sense this time.
Im not going to defend my arguments, because they're, frankly, Correct.
In war and battles you keep ALL your advantages. Overconfidence is a massive weakness. The end.


----------



## Taleran (Nov 8, 2007)

Absence said:


> What part? Do tell. And make sense this time.
> Im not going to defend my arguments, because they're, frankly, Correct.
> In war and battles you keep ALL your advantages. Overconfidence is a massive weakness. The end.





dot dot fucking dot


----------



## Ork (Nov 8, 2007)

Taleran said:


> dot dot fucking dot



This made me think of sex with a really fat woman with a HUGE mole for some reason


----------



## tictactoc (Nov 8, 2007)

I have to agree with MegaHarrison, people are using the word emo way too easily. I mean from your description, Guts is emo, every single villains in Xenogears are emo (lol),fucking Lucas Blight from Suikoden II is emo.
Seriously, stop this madness...


----------



## Ork (Nov 8, 2007)

tictactoc said:


> I have to agree with MegaHarrison, people are using the word emo way too easily. I mean from your description, Guts is emo, every single villains in Xenogears are emo (lol),fucking Lucas Blight from Suikoden II is emo.
> Seriously, stop this madness...



Luffy is the king of EMO!


----------



## Fang (Nov 8, 2007)

There is a massive difference in being fucked up and broken about an event and being fucked up and constantly referencing or making connections to it to dominate your world view.

That's the difference between between people like Naruto, Luffy, Kenshiro and Gutts to people like Pein, Sasuke or Gaara.


----------



## tictactoc (Nov 8, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> There is a massive difference in being fucked up and broken about an event and being fucked up and constantly referencing or making connections to it to dominate your world view.
> 
> That's the difference between between people like Naruto, Luffy, Kenshiro and Gutts to people like Pein, Sasuke or Gaara.



Gutts's whole life resolved around Griffith... The guy used to turn into a beast just by seeing him :/
Seriously Gutts was obsessed, tormented by Griffith. Revenge was everything for him, he was ready to sacrifice anything and anyone.
However I don't see people saying "GUTTS SMASH RAWWWWR" when he snaps. Same thing for Id, Grafh or Krelian. People keep saying that they're excellent villain. But they're worse than Pein or Sasuke. Hell Grafh wanted to destroy all life in the universe after losing the woman he loved, but he's still more interesting than every characters in One piece, or in any shonen mangas for that matter.


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## Taleran (Nov 8, 2007)

tictactoc said:


> Gutts's whole life resolved around Griffith... The guy used to turn into a beast just by seeing him :/
> Seriously Gutts was obsessed, tormented by Griffith. Revenge was everything for him, he was ready to sacrifice anything and anyone.
> However I don't see people saying "GUTTS SMASH RAWWWWR" when he snaps. Same thing for Id, Grafh or Krelian. People keep saying that they're excellent villain. But they're worse than Pein or Sasuke. Hell Grafh wanted to destroy all life in the universe after losing the woman he loved, but he's still more interesting than every characters in One piece, or in any shonen mangas for that matter.



I tried to think of some long winded wordy way to put this but I couldn't


LOL OPINIONS


but I do agree with you about Luca and the XS villains, but I believe the problem with the Naruto / Bleach villains is that they don't give off the same threatening vibe as others, they don't even feel like villains.


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## MdB (Nov 9, 2007)

tictactoc said:


> I have to agree with MegaHarrison, people are using the word emo way too easily. I mean from your description, Guts is emo, every single villains in Xenogears are emo (lol),fucking Lucas Blight from Suikoden II is emo.
> Seriously, stop this madness...



And just how is Gutt's emo. He has little bit of angst that is supported by good writing that Kishimoto couldn't achieve in his fucking life time. There's only one emotion Gutt's has in his battles, and that is rage.

First we have the characters in Naruto that only have one terrible experience, and than we have Gutts. Someone who lives ever since he was born miserable. And yet, the combined angst of everything in Berserk can't stand up to only one fucking character in Naruto. BIG DIFFERENCE, VERY BIG DIFFERENCE.


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## Castiel (Nov 9, 2007)

Timur Lane said:


> Diego "Dio" Brando in Steel Ball Run.
> 
> Good villain with beliveable motives and funky abilites(he can turn into a fucking raptor, how awesomely weird isen't that?)



not to be a nitpicking douche, but SBR is run Ultra Jump not Shonen Jump


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## tictactoc (Nov 9, 2007)

Lord Kamina said:


> And just how is Gutt's emo. He has little bit of angst that is supported by good writing that Kishimoto couldn't achieve in his fucking life time. There's only one emotion Gutt's has in his battles, and that is rage.
> 
> First we have the characters in Naruto that only have one terrible experience, and than we have Gutts. Someone who lives ever since he was born miserable. And yet, the combined angst of everything in Berserk can't stand up to only one fucking character in Naruto. BIG DIFFERENCE, VERY BIG DIFFERENCE.



lol @ "only one terrible experience". It doesn't matter if he had one, two or three terrible experience, he was still hurt by that like Gutts was, period. 
 Yeah Gutts only has rage on his mind when he's fighting, and that's why he's as emotional than Sasuke or even more, he's only driven by his emotions: hate, regrets, and anger. But it doesn't make of him a bad character. Seriously it really looks like that being affected by your emotions make you wack/weak/shit.

And let's not compare the writing in Naruto and  Berserk. One is a shonen manga, the other is a seinen. I'm not saying that Kishimoto would do better than Miura if he was writing a seinen too, since Miura is clearly better than Naruto's author, but Kishi can't develop his characters like Miura can, that's fact :/


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## HyperKnuckles22 (Nov 9, 2007)

although bleach was stale for awhile, a grand asshole like noitora makes villians seems fresh again.



> I would also point out that the Genei Ryoudan > Gecko in creativity, and still manages to be mostly attractive.



machi was the only character of the ryodan i liked, the others, save for hisoka and kuroro, werent very memoreable.

i like moria and pein almost the same, except i like pein better beacause moria almost seems like a comedy relief character.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2007)

Who would you guys say would be the best villian in Shonen Jump history, out of curiousity?


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## HyperKnuckles22 (Nov 9, 2007)

> Who would you guys say would be the best villian in Shonen Jump history, out of curiousity?



sir crocodile, no contest!


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2007)

Freeza, Piccolo Daimou and Cell have nothing on him?


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## HyperKnuckles22 (Nov 9, 2007)

well, cell maybe!


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## Cap-ricorn (Nov 9, 2007)

Aisen!!!!

cant tell me he's not cool. i dont read Bleach manga becuz it will be just about the last anime series i've spoiled for myself. but when it comes to current anime, i have to go with Aisen becuz he just crossed over to hueco mundo and startin bossin over there. his whole plot that he set up in Soul Society was flawless and everything and he made everybody look like a fool. His overall goal is still the same ole "lets take it all over" scheme but i just like the way that he's carried it out


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## MUSOLINI (Nov 9, 2007)

griffit. the guy looks like a female doll yet kills his own crew for power.


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## tictactoc (Nov 9, 2007)

Shinobu fucking Sensui.
Lol @ Crocodile being the villain ever from the shonen jump. That's like, fucking hilarious.


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## Six* (Nov 9, 2007)

Nishino Tsukasa.

I mean she won the main character, wth!? 
Aya lost...


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2007)

tictactoc said:


> Shinobu fucking Sensui.
> Lol @ Crocodile being the villain ever from the shonen jump. That's like, fucking hilarious.



Lol at Sensui since ihe's basically a Cell rip-off.


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## Castiel (Nov 9, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Who would you guys say would be the best villian in Shonen Jump history, out of curiousity?



in no particula order:

Dio Brando - dude he's fucking dio
Sir Crocodile - absolute best villain in all of One Piece
Perfect Cell - my favorite dbz villain
Shishio Makoto - dude this guy fucking owns, it took the might of Keshin, Sanosuke, Saito AND Aoshi and he was still standing.


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## Castiel (Nov 9, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Lol at Sensui since ihe's basically a Cell rip-off.



wait what the hell?  Sensui and Cell are realyl different, I think you might be refering to the younger Togoro.


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## TargaryenX (Nov 10, 2007)

Currently, probably Tykki. Of all time I'd have to say either Shishio or Kid Buu, he was really creepy in a pink, rubbery kind of way.


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## Fang (Nov 10, 2007)

Buu was a terrible villian in personality or depth compared to Freeza, Daimou or Cell. Just plain lolworthy is all he was.


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## Devil's Sonata (Nov 10, 2007)

The latest chapters have cemented Marco as my favorite villain in the current arcs. Overall out of the current series though I'd probably have to say the Genei Ryodan.


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## Gutsu (Nov 10, 2007)

Okay after having watched HXH hands down Hisoka is the best Villain EVER. Holy shit this guy rules. His likeable, completly fuck up (you should the fight he had with Gon in the tower tournament as if he was having an organsam while fighting him  ) dude makes you laugh at the weidest/akward moments, strong as hell and love his goal to look for "ripe fruits" for him to "pluck" he even joins a certain organazation for him to fight the boss.

Oh and yeah I've read Naruto, Bleach, Kenshin, Flame of Recca and several other Shonen manga none of those villains come close to Hisoka hell Oro seems to me a bit of a ripoff of Hisoka.

Anways watch this vid the fight between Hisoka and Gon at the tournament tower especially at 7:39. Love how he can be a trickster as well "oops meant my right". 

yum. kakagai.


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## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Nov 10, 2007)

I wouldnt call hisoka a villian. He is evil but doesnt like to subjugate or tyrannize people.  He just seeks strong opponents to fight thats all. But yeah his character is epic. 

I'd say complete Cell was the best villian in DBZ

I think Sir Crocodile from One piece was the epitome of evil.

I agree with Akainu on Shishio Makoto too.

@ Musolini
Just to be clear, Berserk is not shounen manga .... but Griffith is also a great villian.


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## Parallax (Nov 10, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Who would you guys say would be the best villian in Shonen Jump history, out of curiousity?



Dio Brando and Kira Yoshigake


----------



## ~Avant~ (Nov 10, 2007)

For now Tyki Mikk and Kuroro Lucifer are my top favorites. As well as Ulquiorra.

My Number 1 favorite villain however has to be either Toguro or Lucia from Rave master.


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## tictactoc (Nov 10, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Lol at Sensui since ihe's basically a Cell rip-off.



lmao can you a give me a copy of this Yuyu Hakusho you read plz ????


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## Gutsu (Nov 10, 2007)

tictactoc said:


> lmao can you a give me a copy of this Yuyu Hakusho you read plz ????



Must have hat that special edition where Sensui suddenly grows a tail that absorbs people's powers. 



> wait what the hell? Sensui and Cell are realyl different, I think you might be refering to the younger Togoro.



Even he doesn't resemble Cell.


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## Aldric (Nov 10, 2007)

tictactoc said:


> Shinobu fucking Sensui.
> Lol @ Crocodile being the villain ever from the shonen jump. That's like, fucking hilarious.



So you're mocking someone for choosing Crocodile as the best villain in Jump... Only to nominate Sensui? Now that is hilarious.

Sensui was good for YYH standards, which doesn't say much given how much of a borefest this manga was, but he's no way near being the best villain in Jump's history.

From what I've read about JJBA, I'd have to say Dio Brando. Made a huge impression on me with the little I've seen, plus can you cite many manga villains who had their own internet meme?

TOKI WO TOMARE, BITCH

WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY


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## MdB (Nov 10, 2007)

tictactoc said:


> lol @ "only one terrible experience". It doesn't matter if he had one, two or three terrible experience, he was still hurt by that like Gutts was, period.
> Yeah Gutts only has rage on his mind when he's fighting, and that's why he's as emotional than Sasuke or even more, he's only driven by his emotions: hate, regrets, and anger. But it doesn't make of him a bad character. Seriously it really looks like that being affected by your emotions make you wack/weak/shit.



Yes, it matters if one has only one terrible experience and other one has a fucked up live ever since he was born from a hanging corpse. And since when does someone in Naruto have a live that compares to Gutts? 

He was born from a corpse, adopted by a mother that loved him and a father who hated him, later his mom died and he was forced to fight in a mercenary band as a child. He got raped at a young age by his adoptive father who wanted to murder him later. Thrown out of the mercenary band and needed to survive on his own. Find a bunch of friends who later where all sacraficial lambs for his best friend who also raped Gutt's lover infront of his eyes. His lover lost her memory after Femto raped her, giving birth to her and Gutts child who was tainted by Femto. 

And currently he's pretty much doomed. Manifested a demonic entity in his subconscious who's out the destroy everything that he still holds dear (which is also the source of his sudden outbursts of rage turning him into a berserker), has an armor that slowly drains the life out of him leaving him in a state where he borders the line of death even closer. And he's cursed forever to get casted into the vortex when he dies thanks to his brand that his so called best friend gave him. 

Yeah Naruto, Gaara, Pein and Sasuke have the same miserable life as him fo sho. Not to mention Gutt's rarely whines and moans about it and still keeps his humanity unlike Sasuke and Pein who are currently fucking robots.



tictactoc said:


> And let's not compare the writing in Naruto and  Berserk. One is a shonen manga, the other is a seinen. I'm not saying that Kishimoto would do better than Miura if he was writing a seinen too, since Miura is clearly better than Naruto's author, but Kishi can't develop his characters like Miura can, that's fact :/



It pisses me off when someone is going to compare Gutts with an angsty shitty character from Naruto. Mainly, because the difference is huge.

And Kishimoto can't develop his characters anymore, Naruto's fetish of Sasuke proves that. There are other Shounen mangaka's who at least have the ability to grab someones emotion when someone has a sad or terrible experience.



Cap-ricorn said:


> Aisen!!!!
> 
> cant tell me he's not cool. i dont read Bleach manga becuz it will be just about the last anime series i've spoiled for myself. but when it comes to current anime, i have to go with Aisen becuz he just crossed over to hueco mundo and startin bossin over there. his whole plot that he set up in Soul Society was flawless and everything and he made everybody look like a fool. His overall goal is still the same ole "lets take it all over" scheme but i just like the way that he's carried it out



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA1111111111111111111111!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111!!!!!!!!1

And lol at Bleach being better because of some boring predictable shitfest going on.


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## tictactoc (Nov 10, 2007)

Lord Kamina said:


> Yes, it matters if one has only one terrible experience and other one has a fucked up live ever since he was born from a hanging corpse. And since when does someone in Naruto have a live that compares to Gutts?
> 
> He was born from a corpse, adopted by a mother that loved him and a father who hated him, later his mom died and he was forced to fight in a mercenary band as a child. He got raped at a young age by his adoptive father who wanted to murder him later. Thrown out of the mercenary band and needed to survive on his own. Find a bunch of friends who later where all sacraficial lambs for his best friend who also raped Gutt's lover infront of his eyes. His lover lost her memory after Femto raped her, giving birth to her and Gutts child who was tainted by Femto.
> 
> ...



Seriously I don't see how having a fucked up life is worse than losing everything after having a good life :/ especially when the one responsible for this loss is someone close to you, but hey that's your point of view.
Anyway I wasn't trying to compare any Naruto's characters with Gutts. Like I said Berserk is a manga aimed to a mature audience while Naruto is first for teenagers. So of course you won't see Naruto getting abused in his childhood by konoha ninjas hating him for being the Kyubi container -__-. But it seriously looks like you hate Naruto for some unknown reasons, so I won't insist on this matter.

And Aldric, yeah I'm mocking Crocodile because he's nothing when compared to Sensui. He was a nice and entertaining villain, but the whole "I'M A VILLAIN BECAUSE !!!!" is boring to me now. I already saw this type of villain 100 times while watching disney movies in my childhood.


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## MdB (Nov 10, 2007)

tictactoc said:


> Seriously I don't see how having a fucked up life is worse than losing everything after having a good life :/ especially when the one responsible for this loss is someone close to you, but hey that's your point of view.
> Anyway I wasn't trying to compare any Naruto's characters with Gutts. Like I said Berserk is a manga aimed to a mature audience while Naruto is first for teenagers. So of course you won't see Naruto getting abused in his childhood by konoha ninjas hating him for being the Kyubi container -__-. But it seriously looks like you hate Naruto for some unknown reasons, so I won't insist on this matter.



And who in Naruto lost everything? If you mean Sasuke, he had everything a child wants at that age, except a family. And I hate Naruto for being shitty ever since the time-skip occured, I actually liked Naruto back in part 1 where Kishimoto wasn't a lazy ass. Though I dont have the energy to bash it to the fullest, cause Bleach is even shittier.


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## Aldric (Nov 10, 2007)

Oda hinted at the reasons why Croc became what he is and I found it far more interesting than the usual contrived weepy backstory ala Naruto.

Crocodile basically dreamt of being the Pirate King but failed, likely in a devastating way as his scar and lost hand seem to indicate and became jaded.

Sensui became a villain because HUMANS ARE MEANIES I HATE THEM. Yeah some really deep, adult stuff there. Doesn't sound like run of the mill adolescent bullshit at all.


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## ez (Nov 10, 2007)

From what i'm reading Nnoitra(bleach) is pulling off the villain bit quite well as i've come to dislike his character more and more chapter after chapter. Tyki Mikk is also doing quite well as a villain. The ant king hasn't been a very remarkable villain to me but maybe that will change in the upcoming chapters. 

if it's all encompassing...Dio(i saw the OVAs and read a few volumes...simply awesome), Freiza, Crocodile, Orochimaru, Itachi and Aizen would be up there for me, i can't choose a single one  edit 2: forgot Enel and Arlong. Bastards did it well too.



edit: oh shi- pre-skip gaara was awesome  I don't really care what haters say, he did that villain shit quite well.


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## StrawberryBankai (Nov 10, 2007)

Grimmjaw is pretty ace


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## tictactoc (Nov 10, 2007)

Lord Kamina said:


> And who in Naruto lost everything? If you mean Sasuke, he had everything a child wants at that age, except a family. And I hate Naruto for being shitty ever since the time-skip occured, I actually liked Naruto back in part 1 where Kishimoto wasn't a lazy ass. Though I dont have the energy to bash it to the fullest, cause Bleach is even shittier.



Having a family is like the most important thing for a 8 years old boy lol. I have to agree with you on Kishimoto being lazy with Naruto (the character). He could have shown scenes really justifying Naruto's attachment to Sasuke. Instead of that we had to "admit" that :/



			
				Aldric said:
			
		

> Oda hinted at the reasons why Croc became what he is and I found it far more interesting than the usual contrived weepy backstory ala Naruto.
> 
> Crocodile basically dreamt of being the Pirate King but failed, likely in a devastating way as his scar and lost hand seem to indicate and became jaded.
> 
> Sensui became a villain because HUMANS ARE MEANIES I HATE THEM. Yeah some really deep, adult stuff there. Doesn't sound like run of the mill adolescent bullshit at all.


Lol seriously, if what you just did say is true, I don't see how it's more "adult" and "less weepy" than Naruto's backstory.
And you're dumbing down Sensui there. he didn't become a villain because humans were "meanies", that's a little more complex (for a shonen manga anyway).
Just read that:



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Shinobu Sensui (仙水忍, Sensui Shinobu?), Voiced by: Rokuro Naya , was Earth's Spirit Detective before Yusuke Urameshi. According to Koenma, he was the natural choice; he was gifted with amazing spirit awareness, strength, and a strong moral sense of right and wrong with humans being right and demons being wrong, and thus the latter must be killed. In time he met Itsuki, and, after letting him live, Sensui learned from him that not all demons were evil. His attitude would only change once he witnesses the Feast of Human Vices when being sent on a mission to close a portal to the demon plane operated by the Black Book Club. Sensui?s black-and-white beliefs about humans and demons suddenly became very grey, and, unable to handle this discovery and the knowledge of his own acts, he was driven insane, killing everyone there and questioned the sanctity of the human race. He became obsessed with the Chapter Black video tape, which documented the worst cruelties of the human race against demons and each other, and he eventually disappeared, deciding to punish humanity by opening a stable tunnel to the demon plane. He waited ten years for Koenma to recruit a new Spirit Detective so that humanity could have an ?attorney? to defend itself in the upcoming ?trial?, forming an army of seven alongside Itsuki.
> 
> These humans, seven in number, were thought by Yusuke and his companions to be Sensui's Seven. However it was revealed that Sensui's seven did not refer to the seven humans, but his seven personalities. Of these, we only see Kazuya, Minoru, and Shinobu in the series. There's a shot in the anime that shows a crying, trembling Sensui with somewhat more feminine features, which could or could not be Naru, but the truth isn't revealed. One of Sensui's personalities proclaimed that the seven of them would be the ones to wipe out the human race, though Sensui's real plan was that he didn't care about the doorway to the Demon Realm. Instead he wanted to travel to the Demon Realm so he could look for a demon that could kill him to atone for what he had done to demonkind regardless of the consequences of what he would do to the Human Realm as a result. He tells Sniper to start digging seven graves at one of their early encounters with Yusuke. It is later revealed that the seven graves aren't for Yusuke and his friends, nor for Sensui's psychics, but for his seven personalities, i.e., his own grave.



Sensui is far more interesting and complex than Crocodile. And becoming a villain because you couldn't achieve your dream is farrrrrr from "deep adult stuff"...


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## Aldric (Nov 10, 2007)

I never said it was "deep adult stuff", what's with the constant straw man crap? Or do you just have piss poor reading comprehension?

I said he had a backstory that Oda hinted at, and that he probably wasn't always the cynical douchebag portrayed in the Alabasta arc. Which wouldn't make him the "Disney villain" you implied he was.

And no sorry there's nothing complex about Sensui. Pure hearted boy discovers the horrors of the world and snaps. GROUNDBREAKING. Whole point is Croc and Sensui aren't that different, and laughing at someone for thinking Croc is the best villain ever while giving this title to Sensui is retarded.

That's about it.


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## MdB (Nov 10, 2007)

Sasuke wasn't 8 when Naruto started. Him betraying everything he had for Orochimaru was pathetic and gave him the titel of biggest idiot in recent Shounen history.


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## tictactoc (Nov 10, 2007)

Lord Kamina said:


> Sasuke wasn't 8 when Naruto started. Him betraying everything he had for Orochimaru was pathetic and gave him the titel of biggest idiot in recent Shounen history.



Biggest idiot ? I don't know. If he was weaker than Ino I would have agreed with you, but he became quite strong during the timeskip, and he was able to "kill" Orochimaru.
Now, biggest bastard, probably 



			
				Aldric said:
			
		

> I never said it was "deep adult stuff", what's with the constant straw man crap? Or do you just have piss poor reading comprehension?
> 
> I said he had a backstory that Oda hinted at, and that he probably wasn't always the cynical douchebag portrayed in the Alabasta arc. Which wouldn't make him the "Disney villain" you implied he was.
> 
> ...


Not my fault if you're unable to write a proper post .
Anyway, no Sensui has nothing in common with Crocodile. Sensui wanted to punish humanity and attone his past behavior. Crocodile decided to become a criminal, because he was unable to realize his dream.
And lol I never said that Sensui was more complex than Jesus for god's sake. Just said that he was complex *FOR A SHONEN MANGA* (and I'm the one with piss poor reading comprehension)


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## Fang (Nov 10, 2007)

Sasuke was being pampered like a spoil brat even after the Uchiha Massacre, he turned out into a piece of shit with almost no personality save like LK said...a fucking robot. Naruto was treated like shit his entire childhood and up till he was 12 barring two people, Iruka and Sandaime.

Wow, same amount if not worse shit in his life and he turned out fine.


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## MdB (Nov 10, 2007)

tictactoc said:


> Biggest idiot ? I don't know. If he was weaker than Ino I would have agreed with you, but he became quite strong during the timeskip, and he was able to "kill" Orochimaru.
> Now, biggest bastard, probably



I'm sorry but Kishi riding his dick by retconning the Sharingan to win in every possible outcome isn't being strong, it's bad writing. And he killed Orochimaru lying in his sick bed, that isn't even feat to judge his strength from.


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## Fang (Nov 10, 2007)

Remember the Deidara vs Sasuke fight, LK?


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## MdB (Nov 10, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Remember the Deidara vs Sasuke fight, LK?



I do, it was terrible thanks to the retcon of Sasuke's Sharingan. And he killed one of the few interesting characters from this series (save from the bishie bullshit) . But isn't it obvious? Kishi doesn't like psychopaths with suicidal bombing tendencies, no, he likes them with groundbreaking personalities and backgrounds....


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## Fang (Nov 10, 2007)

And cool in his flash back we get even more Sharingan hype with fucking statues with the Sharingan.

Everything has to deal with the Sharingan in Naruto.


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## MdB (Nov 10, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> And cool in his flash back we get even more Sharingan hype with fucking statues with the Sharingan.
> 
> Everything has to deal with the Sharingan in Naruto.



Isn't that kinda obvious when the big mastermind behind Akatsuki is a fucking Uchiha who also summoned Kyuubi.

Wouldn't it be better if Kishimoto renamed this manga to ''Uchiha's''?


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## Fang (Nov 10, 2007)

Hey, at least Naruto wasn't a fuck up and zero personality shithead bishie like Sasuke is. At least he wasn't an angsting little bastard with the shit in his life. And yeah, Naruto's past was ten times worse then Sasuke.


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## MdB (Nov 10, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Hey, at least Naruto wasn't a fuck up and zero personality shithead bishie like Sasuke is. At least he wasn't an angsting little bastard with the shit in his life. And yeah, Naruto's past was ten times worse then Sasuke.



He is right now, his whole life depends on Sasuke from now on.

I want the trashtalking kid with balls of steel back.


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## Fang (Nov 10, 2007)

But that's Sasuke's fault too. 

I want Kakuzu back but we don't get good things in Naruto for this reason.


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## tictactoc (Nov 10, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Sasuke was being pampered like a spoil brat even after the Uchiha Massacre, he turned out into a piece of shit with almost no personality save like LK said...a fucking robot. Naruto was treated like shit his entire childhood and up till he was 12 barring two people, Iruka and Sandaime.
> 
> Wow, same amount if not worse shit in his life and he turned out fine.



I already said what I thought about this. Sasuke is not Naruto, Naruto's just mentally stronger than his friend. Sasuke is still stuck in the past.

About Deidara, that's funny but I always interpreted his character as Kishi representing himself in his manga, and expressing all his fustrations about the Sharingan


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## Fang (Nov 10, 2007)

You mean the complete opposite since the Sharingan gained new magic powers against Deidara. And Sasuke isn't stuck in the past, his head is stuck in his ass.


----------



## tictactoc (Nov 10, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> You mean the complete opposite since the Sharingan gained new magic powers against Deidara. And Sasuke isn't stuck in the past, his head is stuck in his ass.



Nope the whole "failure mistaking his ancestor's gift as his own power". That was _way_ too detailled


----------



## Castiel (Nov 10, 2007)

Gutsu said:


> Must have hat that special edition where Sensui suddenly grows a tail that absorbs people's powers.
> 
> 
> 
> Even he doesn't resemble Cell.



it's a colasal gigantic stretch but thinking togoro as a cell rip off is less insane than thinking that of sensui.  what with the whole obsession with 100% and all.  but yeahtye're different


----------



## Fang (Nov 10, 2007)

Gutsu said:


> Must have hat that special edition where Sensui suddenly grows a tail that absorbs people's powers.
> 
> 
> 
> Even he doesn't resemble Cell.



Blalalahahahaha. I'm Sensui, I hate humans, they are weak and inferior. Must cleanse them of this world. And I am also a bishie! Yay.

I'm talking about his personality, obviously. He thinks demons are superior, humans aren't worth shit and blah blah blah.


----------



## tictactoc (Nov 10, 2007)

lolz Cell didn't care about humans, he just wanted to be...perfect. And Sensui didn't think that humans were inferiors... Seriously PM me your h4x version of Yuyu Hakusho lmao.


----------



## Taleran (Nov 10, 2007)

wait why the fuck are people comparing Cell and Sensui......


----------



## Castiel (Nov 10, 2007)

I have no fucking idea, also this thread has been weird to read


----------



## Gutsu (Nov 11, 2007)

Taleran said:


> wait why the fuck are people comparing Cell and Sensui......



I know it's just....


----------



## shiki-fuujin (Nov 11, 2007)

cell and orochimaru the only villains with badass theme songs.also


----------



## Sylar (Nov 11, 2007)

No idea why but I like this guy. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jmOu6yDVsY[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Morpheus (Nov 11, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Who would you guys say would be the best villian in Shonen Jump history, out of curiousity?



Dio Brando, Yoshikage Kira, and basically all JJBA villains.


----------



## Parallax (Nov 11, 2007)

Sieglein said:


> Dio Brando, Yoshikage Kira, and basically all JJBA villains.



Agreed, this post is truth.


----------



## Taleran (Nov 11, 2007)

hmmmm out of em all


Raoh
Dio
Mori
Saga


----------



## Fang (Nov 11, 2007)

Giovanni?


----------



## Ork (Nov 11, 2007)

Berserk>Bleagh>Emoruto>One Piece of crap>YuYuHaChoo

To summarise,
 Naruto: is FULL of emotionless robots with Doujutus of some kind,  Itachi, Sasuke, Pein, Hyuuga's in general, Uchiha's in general from what I've seen of them from flashback episodes... Am I wrong? EVERYONE AND THEIR GODDAMN MOTHERS PET DOG has a traumatic past in this show, Itachi, Sasuke, Pein, gaara, Naruto, Hinata, Neji, Lee, Kakashi, Tsunade,  ... do I need to freaking go on? I've covered EVERY main Character and most of the Secondary leads bar Sakura, Who was a whiny fangirl bitch (well, she was.) and had HER emo Episode when sasuke left.

I mean, am I wrong? No freaking show needs that much goddamn EMO.
Don't even get me started on the fact that they made almost exactly ONE THIRD OF THE FREAKING SHOW FILLER.


Bleach: Its Predictable, thats all I can say, its TOO FREAKING PREDICTABLE. The SECOND Nel appeared in the manga, The SECOND She was identified as a Hollow/Arrancar, I KNEW she was An Espada. It was just SO PREDICTABLE, (insert Moral Dilemma a: Nice cute friend of main character turns out to be an Ex Evil character of no mean strength) I knew Kurosaki's Father was in Some way related to soul society From about episode 50. And wow, get this, it revolves around swords with special Abilities, how FREAKING ORIGINAL IS THAT?! Not to mention The characters seem to suddenly LOSE  and GAIN random abilities ALL THE TIME.

When the HELL did they start being able to stand on Air? It would have been freaking USEFUL IN SOME OF THE EARLIER EPISODES. Can someone give me the exact episode, is it ever explained? Suddenly, ichigo Can't shunpo when the ground was falling away right after they got to Hueco Mundo, ALSO suprisingly, Ichigo STRAINED to lift chad and Quincypansy Out of that hole, when We see him perform EPIC FEATS OF STRENGTH, Smashing holes in the ground, Knocking people through concrete... hello?

Not to mention all three of them suddenly LOST THE ABILITY TO STAND ON AIR, What the hell is with that Ability? Does it just COME and Freaking GO? Not only that, but at some point they develop the ability to FLY, not just stand on air, FLY. LOL. 
Its described Breifly, well after it starts happing as standing On reiatsu, Well Quincypansy says there's MORE in Hueco mundo, and They can suddenly do it again in the fights a bit later on. 

I'm not even going to TOUCH the whole thing with Ichigo Never being in school being ignored practically except for a one panel strip thing where the teacher basically says "Bad Kurosaki"

And lol at Inoue, "Sure I'll go with you" "oh save me /emo"


These are just SOME examples of the massive plot and well... INTELLIGENCE holes in the damn series.

One piece: Its a freaking Cartoon, its not an anime, the villians come from a 5 year olds Daydream, it has the plot depth of a sheet of A4 and Character Motivations range from "I want to be the pirate king!" to "MONEYMONEYMONEY" To "I want to be a great doctor"

Lol at one pice. And Lol at Robin, "Omg, I was 4 and I waz teh traumatised by ppl in ships blowing up my home, so I go with these guys to kep j00 safe k?" (It never crossed her mind that thye'd come after her, that she could just freaking run away, that she wasnt QUITE as weak as she was when she was 4.)

And also lol at recycling the entire plot again and again. 
Meet shichibukai/big bad guy, spend 20 episodes (50ish manga chapters) Beating through around 6 Minions in each arc, get to boss, spend 20 episodes fighting boss, luffy gets pwnt, Luffies friends inspire luffy to fight harder and win, luffy wins, onto next Shichibukai/ big bad guy.

YuYuHakusho: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA


----------



## Fang (Nov 11, 2007)

One Piece is crap?


Lol.


----------



## Ork (Nov 11, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> One Piece is crap?
> 
> 
> Lol.



Yup. . It is.


----------



## Fang (Nov 11, 2007)

And why is it a piece of crap?


----------



## Ork (Nov 11, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> And why is it a piece of crap?



Read... umm... about Three posts up, I explain as much as Im willing to really, any more and I'll REALLY start ranting


----------



## Sylar (Nov 11, 2007)

> One piece: Its a freaking Cartoon, its not an anime, the villians come from a 5 year olds Daydream, it has the plot depth of a sheet of A4 and Character Motivations range from "I want to be the pirate king!" to "MONEYMONEYMONEY" To "I want to be a great doctor"
> 
> Lol at one pice. And Lol at Robin, "Omg, I was 4 and I waz teh traumatised by ppl in ships blowing up my home, so I go with these guys to kep j00 safe k?" (It never crossed her mind that thye'd come after her, that she could just freaking run away, that she wasnt QUITE as weak as she was when she was 4.)
> 
> ...



I wasn't sure whether to facepalm or call you wrong, soooooooooooo:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY[/YOUTUBE]

and


----------



## Taleran (Nov 11, 2007)

you know its funny because Berserk isn't Shounen....


neway

coming from someone with Light as their Avatar (I'm guessing) I believe you've lost all right to call some other story childish


----------



## Fang (Nov 11, 2007)

I think Absence has only watched the dubbed version of One Piece.


----------



## Ork (Nov 11, 2007)

Sylar said:


> I wasn't sure whether to facepalm or call you wrong, soooooooooooo:


----------



## Ork (Nov 11, 2007)

Taleran said:


> you know its funny because Berserk isn't Shounen....
> 
> 
> neway
> ...



Light is my avatar because he's bishie and He fits my custom User title.
I vaguely like death note, but thats just because Light is funny, and murderous, and above all, HE DOESNT HAVE A TRAUMATIC PAST! WOOT!

And I know Berserk is Seinen, But how many times has it been mentioned already anyway? It pwns either way,


----------



## Fang (Nov 11, 2007)

Berserk use to be Ultra Jump, didn't it?


----------



## Sylar (Nov 11, 2007)

Absence said:


> So where am I wrong? And Don't do either if you don't want to, admitting i'm right is the better course.



Let's see:

First of all you say its simple and any 5 year old could make it up.  The sheer scale, orginality, and depth of the series disagrees with you.

Next up, you mock the character who had one of the worst pasts in any manga.  Seriously bad.

Finally you claim the plot is recycled.  Uh-huh....  I won't won't attempt to list the numerous reasons this is BS.

I can't admit you're right, becuase you're dead wrong.  Not slightly wrong.  Not mostly wrong. Not even almost completely wrong.  But 100% dead wrong.


----------



## Ork (Nov 11, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Berserk use to be Ultra Jump, didn't it?



Don't ask me, I read them off teh intornetz. And I've sadly gotten to the point where there IS NO NEW manga for me to read, so I have to wait for weekly releases, this means I go to various forums and Insult people and try to prove them wrong while I wait for next release.


----------



## Fang (Nov 11, 2007)

Sylar said:


> Let's see:
> 
> First of all you say its simple and any 5 year old could make it up.  The sheer scale, orginality, and depth of the series disagrees with you.
> 
> ...



Alabasta Arc soloes current Shonen Jump.


----------



## Taleran (Nov 11, 2007)

Sylar said:


> Let's see:
> 
> First of all you say its simple and any 5 year old could make it up.  The sheer scale, orginality, and depth of the series disagrees with you.
> 
> ...




you fail to see theres no point in arguing here because of this persona hes created for himself he'll disagree out of habit


----------



## Sylar (Nov 11, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Alabasta Arc soloes current Shonen Jump.



Damn straight. 



> you fail to see theres no point in arguing here because of this persona hes created for himself he'll disagree out of habit



One lives in eternal hope...


----------



## Ork (Nov 11, 2007)

Sylar said:


> Let's see:
> 
> First of all you say its simple and any 5 year old could make it up.  The sheer scale, orginality, and depth of the series disagrees with you.
> 
> ...



You can't prove I'm wrong, because I'm not, not because you don't want to. The series is long, that doesnt make it good, power rangers is longer. It still sucks. Who had the worst past, Robin? Yeah its pretty nasty, But last I checked, Having a traumatic past doesnt lower your iq, well, unless you read naruto that is.

And yes you're right, I'll disagree with you all the time, unless you can provide me overwehlming evidence that I'm wrong.

And I'm not denying that one piece is a fun read, But its not deep reading, nor is it intelligent, its like a marvel comic, but more badly drawn, and with less depth.


----------



## Fang (Nov 11, 2007)

But Hatake Sakumo > One Piece.


----------



## Sylar (Nov 11, 2007)

Boy Taleran when you call it, you call it.


----------



## Kuroro (Nov 11, 2007)

Funny thread.  Back on topic, I don't mind the "evil just for the hell of it" villains as long as they have a cool design.  I personally rather prefer some character depth for what I guess people call "emo" or something.  

Personal faves:

1: Kororo Lucifer.
2: Pein.
3: Yamagi Light.
4: Millennium Earl.


----------



## Ork (Nov 11, 2007)

So far I've read "you're wrong, I won't explain why" From about three different sources, strikes me that no one can really defend one piece with logical arguments.

And I notice no one is even bothering to defend naruto and Bleach, =D.


----------



## Sylar (Nov 11, 2007)

Absence said:


> So far I've read "you're wrong, I won't explain why" From about three different sources, strikes me that no one can really defend one piece with logical arguments.
> 
> And I notice no one is even bothering to defend naruto and Bleach, =D.



Uh yeah I DID explain why you were wrong.


----------



## Taleran (Nov 11, 2007)

> I am arrogant. I discount your opinion based on the fact that it is not mine.




why debate with someone who assumes this?


----------



## Ork (Nov 11, 2007)

Sylar said:


> Let's see:
> 
> 
> Finally you claim the plot is recycled.  Uh-huh....  I won't won't attempt to list the numerous reasons this is BS.



Nice defending! I can see the logic of this argument! I'm clearly wrong!

Need sleep now, NN.


----------



## Sylar (Nov 11, 2007)

Unfortunately I will no longer be able to debate you as I seem to have given myself a concussion after so veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryVERYVEEERY many facepalms that I've gotten from reading the convoluted garbage that is your posts.


----------



## Ork (Nov 11, 2007)

Sylar said:


> Unfortunately I will no longer be able to debate you as I seem to have given myself a concussion after so veryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryveryVERYVEEERY many facepalms that I've gotten from reading the convoluted garbage that is your posts.



Eh, you didn't actually argue your point at any stage anyway, you facepalmed from the start till the end, and kept spouting that I was wrong without any evidence, or any real facts at all. I don't think I'll be missing much if you stop 'debating' =D.


----------



## Fang (Nov 11, 2007)

You basically are saying you don't like One Piece, you don't like its art work or style of Oda so its trash and crap.

And it seems you've never watch anything other then five episodes of the dub OP series.

Amiright?


----------



## WHITEBEARD inactive (Nov 11, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> You basically are saying you don't like One Piece, you don't like its art work or style of Oda so its trash and crap.



If you think about it, thats whats most of you guys are doing with Naruto & Bleach also.


----------



## Ork (Nov 11, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> You basically are saying you don't like One Piece, you don't like its art work or style of Oda so its trash and crap.
> 
> And it seems you've never watch anything other then five episodes of the dub OP series.
> 
> Amiright?



I've watched the entire series subbed and read Up to date with the manga ( i may be a chapter behind)

The artwork is only a very minor peeve, The only reason I'm so passionate about it is because it started out so good, and then... it just... recycled. Crocodile, he has miss sunday, Mr Three, MR one, Mr Two, MrwhateverthehellIdon'tcare etc as his minions, took around 50 manga chapters to get past them all, Enies lobby there were the assasination squad, Threre was about 6 if I remember, Stupid Giraffe dude, Wolf guy, Giant fat ball dude, Hairman, The woman Who liked bubbles... hmm am I missing any? Took around 50 manga chapter to beat them all, then the boss, Now its gekko, He has Stupid Ghost woman, Invisiblelionman, Supersamuraizombie, That damn annoying doctor dude, and now Oz... Its just recycling, the plot is EXACTLY the same, Replace special abilities and Locations with a new one, and Viola, Next arc inc.

The plot forumula is : Start arc, meet minion(s) of bad guy, Bad guy wrongs member of crew or friend in some way, Crew goes on epic journey to badguys home, Fights minions one on one for stupid amounts of time, matching up characters, so its always 1v1 with minions and crew, beat minions, Luffy fights boss, luffy almost loses then nakama inspire him to victory. rinse repeat.


----------



## Fang (Nov 11, 2007)

I don't hate Bleach or Naruto, I hate what Kishimoto has done to Part II of Naruto and I hate how Kubo can't think of anything other then believing that a rehashing of Soul Society will possibly make a signifigant impact on the story of Bleach.


----------



## Ork (Nov 11, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> I don't hate Bleach or Naruto, I hate what Kishimoto has done to Part II of Naruto and I hate how Kubo can't think of anything other then believing that a rehashing of Soul Society will possibly make a signifigant impact on the story of Bleach.



Bleach is also guilty of the rehashing thing, in fact, of the three, only naruto isnt :X, it still sucks though.


----------



## Fang (Nov 11, 2007)

I'm still trying to filter what you just said about One Piece.


----------



## Ork (Nov 11, 2007)

Replace usopp with a mad serial Killer, and have Luffy And the crew Build up a country in the grand line of all their allies, then take on the world government... That would make one piece utterly pwn. Less of the forumula =D


----------



## raibbhani (Nov 12, 2007)

Absence said:


> Replace usopp with a mad serial Killer, and have Luffy And the crew Build up a country in the grand line of all their allies, then take on the world government... That would make one piece utterly pwn. Less of the forumula =D



Lol. 

Usopp is liek teh heart of the crew. There is already a serial killer in Strawhats. AKA Robin.


----------



## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Nov 12, 2007)

Absence said:


> I've watched the entire series subbed and read Up to date with the manga ( i may be a chapter behind)
> 
> The artwork is only a very minor peeve, The only reason I'm so passionate about it is because it started out so good, and then... it just... recycled. Crocodile, he has miss sunday, Mr Three, MR one, Mr Two, MrwhateverthehellIdon'tcare etc as his minions, took around 50 manga chapters to get past them all, Enies lobby there were the assasination squad, Threre was about 6 if I remember, Stupid Giraffe dude, Wolf guy, Giant fat ball dude, Hairman, The woman Who liked bubbles... hmm am I missing any? Took around 50 manga chapter to beat them all, then the boss, Now its gekko, He has Stupid Ghost woman, Invisiblelionman, Supersamuraizombie, That damn annoying doctor dude, and now Oz... Its just recycling, the plot is EXACTLY the same, Replace special abilities and Locations with a new one, and Viola, Next arc inc.
> 
> The plot forumula is : Start arc, meet minion(s) of bad guy, Bad guy wrongs member of crew or friend in some way, Crew goes on epic journey to badguys home, Fights minions one on one for stupid amounts of time, matching up characters, so its always 1v1 with minions and crew, beat minions, Luffy fights boss, luffy almost loses then nakama inspire him to victory. rinse repeat.




Yeah, that is the thing about each adventure in OP. It is a fight between crews or something like that hence the whole plotline would be comparably similar
.
You mentioned that Luffy should suddenly start building a country. I think it will be the same as what croc did to Alabasta. He is a pirate, not an oppressor or a ruler. Seems like you dont even know the spirit of what OP is ...... "What is a pirate who forsakes the sea and drops anchor on land" these were the wrods of Ace if i remember correctly

This is the first time that i am saying this to some one : YOU FAIL. 

Edit: On second thought, you must have recently seen Deathnote and are probably influenced by it dont take the comments too hard


----------



## Aldric (Nov 12, 2007)

Absence is one of the worst debaters here, he reminds me of the fabled Phenom Brigade. 

You'll churn out a long post dismantling his piss poor arguments, then he'll flat out ignore your counter points, repeat his arguments that make no fucking sense and have already been debunked and despite this will claim himself the winner at the end.

He's a waste of time and a troll, so I'd suggest you all to stop bothering with him.


----------



## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Nov 12, 2007)

Aldric said:


> Absence is one of the worst debaters here, he reminds me of the fabled Phenom Brigade.
> 
> You'll churn out a long post dismantling his piss poor arguments, then he'll flat out ignore your counter points, repeat his arguments that make no fucking sense and have already been debunked and despite this will claim himself the winner at the end.
> 
> He's a waste of time and a troll, so I'd suggest you all to stop bothering with him.



Oh! point taken 

Lol @ WB's deleted post XD


----------



## Ork (Nov 12, 2007)

pfft, you're just angry I dismantled Gekko on you, What coutner arguments? THere havent been any so far since I posted that one piece is a rehash. Just people saying "I'm right, you're wrong". And tbh if im guilty of ignoring counterarguments then you are too, the thing is, you can't really defend OP with Logic so you're going after ME instead of the argument. /fail.

And whats this about "not understanding the spirit of one piece"?
Frankly, the writer can do whatever the hell he wants, and the only thing that would make one piece better for ME is what I said.

Oh, and Robins a mass murderer not a serial killer. I've read plenty of posts that dismantled my arguments, and If they're correct I agree with them, but I havent read any in this thread so far.

Just fanboys defending their series. (so far three of the five people disagreeing have One piece avatars/sigs)

Attacking me because you can't defend OP is kinda just proving I'm right anyway.


----------



## tictactoc (Nov 12, 2007)

Lol @ people getting butt hurt because someone doesn't like their favorite manga. One piece is a great shonen, but yeah Oda re hashes the same plot over and over again. He could have done something real good with the Enies Lobby arc, by killing the mayor, making Usopp leaves the crew and by making the CP9 the straw hat's arch nemesis.
Instead of that it just ended up as a typical one piece arc. I won't even talk about the whole "I'm pulling a power up out of my ass" and the Going merry fiasco.
Oda took a lot of risk in the beginning with his unorthodox art style. But now that he found the good formula, he's just chilling :/
Right now I'm just interested by White beard, Shanks, Mihawk etc...


----------



## Sylar (Nov 12, 2007)

Could someone tell me how the Skypeia and the Water 7 arcs are even remotely similar?


----------



## Ork (Nov 12, 2007)

tictactoc said:


> Lol @ people getting butt hurt because someone doesn't like their favorite manga. One piece is a great shonen, but yeah Oda re hashes the same plot over and over again. He could have done something real good with the Enies Lobby arc, by killing the mayor, making Usopp leaves the crew and by making the CP9 the straw hat's arch nemesis.
> Instead of that it just ended up as a typical one piece arc. I won't even talk about the whole "I'm pulling a power up out of my ass" and the Going merry fiasco.
> Oda took a lot of risk in the beginning with his unorthodox art style. But now that he found the good formula, he's just chilling :/
> Right now I'm just interested by White beard, Shanks, Mihawk etc...



True that, I want Luffy to meet up with shanks finally.


----------



## Fang (Nov 12, 2007)

Enies Lobby was lame compared to Skypedia or Alabasta.


----------



## Taleran (Nov 12, 2007)

tictactoc said:


> Lol @ people getting butt hurt because someone doesn't like their favorite manga. One piece is a great shonen, but yeah Oda re hashes the same plot over and over again. He could have done something real good with the Enies Lobby arc, by killing the mayor, making Usopp leaves the crew and by making the CP9 the straw hat's arch nemesis.
> Instead of that it just ended up as a typical one piece arc. I won't even talk about the whole "I'm pulling a power up out of my ass" and the Going merry fiasco.
> Oda took a lot of risk in the beginning with his unorthodox art style. But now that he found the good formula, he's just chilling :/
> Right now I'm just interested by White beard, Shanks, Mihawk etc...




Wut, why would you want their villains to stay as that lame ass assassin troupe, god that would have made the manga horrible


----------



## Ork (Nov 12, 2007)

Taleran said:


> Wut, why would you want their villains to stay as that lame ass assassin troupe, god that would have made the manga horrible



We'll never know, because He followed the formula, AGAIN.


----------



## Fang (Nov 12, 2007)

Absence said:


> We'll never know, because He followed the formula, AGAIN.



Prove that Kuro, Arlong, Crocodile, Enel, Lucci and Moria are remotely similar in personality and character to each other.


----------



## Taleran (Nov 12, 2007)

What formula? That he introduces new characters that he uses to their fullest before putting them aside for more, rather than creating Giant Back casts and forgetting about half of the characters?

and if you don't like it why continue to read it?


but Seriously, the goal of the main character in One Piece is to get to One Piece, so he can't stay in one place for a while since that'd go against his goal.


----------



## Ork (Nov 12, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Prove that Kuro, Arlong, Crocodile, Enel, Lucci and Moria are remotely similar in personality and character to each other.


(Read up for the formula, I posted it in a previous post)
As I said, characters doesnt equals Plot, they arent similar, so what? Its the PLOT thats rehashed, not characters. I'll never say he isnt at least original characters wise, but all the original characters in the world won't save a manga in my eyes if the plot is just a rehash.

OP isnt as bad as Dragonball Z at least, but its heading that way.

Having great characters and DOING something ORIGINAL with them are two different things.


----------



## Aldric (Nov 12, 2007)

CP9 being recurring villains is probably the worst idea ever.

I also love how the criticism basically amounts to OP HAS ANTAGONISTS AND FIGHTS. Yeah ok. Very convincing.


----------



## Ork (Nov 12, 2007)

Aldric said:


> CP9 being recurring villains is probably the worst idea ever.
> 
> I also love how the criticism basically amounts to OP HAS ANTAGONISTS AND FIGHTS. Yeah ok. Very convincing.



You clearly havent read or Understood what I'm saying, despite how clear I've made it, stop posting, you're really not doing anything but arguing that you can argue.


----------



## Fang (Nov 12, 2007)

Absence said:


> (Read up for the formula, I posted it in a previous post)
> As I said, characters doesnt equals Plot, they arent similar, so what? Its the PLOT thats rehashed, not characters. I'll never say he isnt at least original characters wise, but all the original characters in the world won't save a manga in my eyes if the plot is just a rehash.
> 
> OP isnt as bad as Dragonball Z at least, but its heading that way.
> ...



I'm still waiting for evidence or a detailed argument explaining how otherwise I'll take this as a concession.

And its obvious you don't have any idea of what plot consists of in the Dragonball manga.

Arlong was motivated by racism and superman mindset for the Merman, Crocodile started out like Luffy and lost his drive and ideals, Moria is a fucking demon spawn from hell. Lucci loves to kill and perform his duty to the WG, and Enel thought he was a fucking god.

How the hell are any of them similar?


----------



## Taleran (Nov 12, 2007)

Absence said:


> (Read up for the formula, I posted it in a previous post)
> As I said, characters doesnt equals Plot, they arent similar, so what? Its the PLOT thats rehashed, not characters. I'll never say he isnt at least original characters wise, but all the original characters in the world won't save a manga in my eyes if the plot is just a rehash.
> 
> OP isnt as bad as Dragonball Z at least, but its heading that way.
> ...





so you still have failed to show us how Alabasta, Skypeia and Water 7 and Thriller Bark were even close to same plot


Burden of Proof lies on the claim


----------



## Ork (Nov 12, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> I'm still waiting for evidence or a detailed argument explaining how otherwise I'll take this as a concession.
> 
> And its obvious you don't have any idea of what plot consists of in the Dragonball manga.
> 
> ...



Are you still not reading what I said? I posted about 5 times, His CHARACTERS may be ORIGINAL, but the PLOT. IS. A . REHASH. Take what I say however you want, I really could care less, your opinion, as Is stated in my sig, doesnt matter to me, but at least do me the courtesy of actually reading my posts before you start posting drivel,


----------



## Aldric (Nov 12, 2007)

> You clearly havent read or Understood what I'm saying, despite how clear I've made it, stop posting, you're really not doing anything but arguing that you can argue.



You said the plot for the Alabasta, Skypiea and W7 sagas was the same, and to illustrate your point you mentioned how the Strawhats had to fight against the main villain's subordinates while Luffy was tackling the big bad guy. 

I've read and understood your argument, it's just that once again it's an unbelievably shitty one, since you're only focusing on one part of the plot (the fights) while ignoring all the differences in the tree arcs.


----------



## Taleran (Nov 12, 2007)

Absence said:


> Are you still not reading what I said? I posted about 5 times, His CHARACTERS may be ORIGINAL, but the PLOT. IS. A . REHASH. Take what I say however you want, I really could care less, your opinion, as Is stated in my sig, doesnt matter to me, but at least do me the courtesy of actually reading my posts before you start posting drivel,



Civil Rebellion / War
God Fueled Survival Game
Government Intrigue
Haunted Island


yeah I see 4 different plots, try again.


----------



## Ork (Nov 12, 2007)

Absence said:


> And also lol at recycling the entire plot again and again.
> Meet shichibukai/big bad guy, spend 20 episodes (50ish manga chapters) Beating through around 6 Minions in each arc, get to boss, spend 20 episodes fighting boss, luffy gets pwnt, Luffies friends inspire luffy to fight harder and win, luffy wins, onto next Shichibukai/ big bad guy.



I said how the plot was a rehash several times, its hardly my fault you guys can't/wont read.


----------



## Mori` (Nov 12, 2007)

your complaints seem strange to me, I mean oddly enough most shounen manga tend to follow the format that one group of bad guys gets introduced and the good guys fight their way through them, with individual challenges being presented for everyone before the main character shines.

DGM's recent arc involved fighting various members of the noah family before reaching their goal of stopping the earl.

Eyeshield 21's recent match involved Deimon playing Oujou with various individual match ups before reaching their goal of reaching the christmas bowl.

Reborn's vongola rings arc involved all the characters fighting their own individual match ups before they reached their goal of winning the match ups and claiming the rings.

Naruto had everyone getting their time to shine during the rescue Gaara arc before achieving their goal of saving Gaara.

HxH is less linear than most shounen but still occupies the good guys beat different bad guys each arc trend.

Belmonde le Visiteur started in this fashion with Bel beating a different bad guy every week (though this is getting dropped)

Bleach does the same, the good guys fight the bad guys on their way to achieving their goals for the arc.

I could go on...

One Piece might follow a similar fighting lay out but its strength lies in the complex and developed nature of its world, the over arching plot themes and events, mystery in characters, their relations and their goals as well as Oda's mind creating weird and wonderful environments and twists. 

And since when have shounen characters had incredibly deep motives behind their goals o-o

--

on topic I think Aizen is a great villain for the way he fucked over the entirity of soul society and his general attitude, its just a same he's not involved in events at the current point in the plot more.

Lucifer and Hisoka are both great as well, though for differing reasons.


----------



## Aldric (Nov 12, 2007)

Was the crew about to implode in Skypiea and Alabasta, with drama between members like it was the case in W7? Was the point of the W7 and Alabasta saga treasure hunting, with the main villain directly targeting them just for the fun of it? 

The same way, since when were the Strawhats actions motivated by the will to help a crewmember in Skypiea? Hell, even the fights weren't exactly the same in Skypiea since some of Enel's minions got defeated by non Strawhat characters like Wiper.


----------



## tictactoc (Nov 12, 2007)

Sylar said:


> Could someone tell me how the Skypeia and the Water 7 arcs are even remotely similar?



Like I said, the Water 7 arc had the potential to be the best one piece arc because Oda was going for something new. There was tension in the crew, we didn't know who was the main villain, and they had just lost their ship. It was a new beginning. When it was revealed than the carpenters were spies working for the government, it was one of the best plot twist in the current shonen jump !! NO ONE had expected that. After those events I was on the verge to become one of the biggest One piece fanboy. Even when Usopp became Sogeking, it was still clear that it wouldn't have joined the crew right away, to find his "path". Instead of that, Oda went for the easy path, and even if it was a good one piece arc, it wasn't *that* good.
Moreover the whole "my manga's gonna last another 10 years" just makes it clear that Oda doesn't intend to change his formula :/


----------



## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Nov 12, 2007)

Absence said:


> I said how the plot was a rehash several times, its hardly my fault you guys can't/wont read.



Your point of arguing that the plot is a rehash is like arguing having missions in naruto is a rehash of the plot. Naruto is a manga about Ninjas who complete missions.

OP is a manga about a fights between the crews. That is the basic framework of each arc i agree. Uptill now, the whole story has been focused on Luffy and co. So it is natural that Oda has used the same framework for each of his arcs. 

Things probably will change when the plot widens up and involves other big names ...... the arc after TB will probably be completely different to the current one, since it would potray events on a larger scale.

Edit: I agree that Water 7 could have been done in a better way. But I dont agree that Usopp should have left the crew. The whole point of leaving the crew was to actually give Usopp a potential powerup in SogeKing. And yeah the mayor should have been killed but then who would would have pulled the SH's out of trouble afterwards ?? And how would they have gotten a new ship ??

OP, my friends, doesnt have plotholes ....


----------



## ~Avant~ (Nov 12, 2007)

Byakuran is proving to be an intriguing villain indeed.


----------



## Ork (Nov 12, 2007)

Feanor - The spirit of fire said:


> Your point of arguing that the plot is a rehash is like arguing having missions in naruto is a rehash of the plot. Naruto is a manga about Ninjas who complete missions.
> 
> OP is a manga about a fights between the crews. That is the basic framework of each arc i agree. Uptill now, the whole story has been focused on Luffy and co. So it is natural that Oda has used the same framework for each of his arcs.
> 
> ...



Not quite the same, imo, tbh I hate naruto and OP, but for different reasons, and at least OP isnt 99 percent Childish Angst. OP has the same framework for every ark, and Naruto is heading that way too. For example, Chasing sasuke, Beat up minion villians. Chasing Gaara, Beat up minion villians, Chasing orochimaru, beat Up minion villians. And thats pretty much it. All the naruto arc's aside from the first one involve chasing someone running/being carried away and fighting their minions/captors one by one.

Bleach is actually the worst offender Imo, the two main arcs, that took up the most chapters were the Soul Society and the Kueco mundo Arcs which are still going on.
To summarise, Both are in different planes, both are giant white structures, both have EXACTLY 10 Big bad guys, and One KING BAD GUY. In BOTH there is a rank below Big bad guy, (arrancar/Officers)
Then there is the rank and file cannon fodder, (shinigami/Hollows)

Anyone see a similarity here? lets not forget BOTH arcs revolve around Ichigo and co heading to the new plane to rescue a friend. Both of these friends are the women of the group. Not to mention both of these friends went of their own Violition to save Ichigo etc.


----------



## Sylar (Nov 12, 2007)

tictactoc said:


> Like I said, the Water 7 arc had the potential to be the best one piece arc because Oda was going for something new. There was tension in the crew, we didn't know who was the main villain, and they had just lost their ship. It was a new beginning. When it was revealed than the carpenters were spies working for the government, it was one of the best plot twist in the current shonen jump !! NO ONE had expected that. After those events I was on the verge to become one of the biggest One piece fanboy. Even when Usopp became Sogeking, it was still clear that it wouldn't have joined the crew right away, to find his "path". Instead of that, Oda went for the easy path, and even if it was a good one piece arc, it wasn't *that* good.
> Moreover the whole "my manga's gonna last another 10 years" just makes it clear that Oda doesn't intend to change his formula :/



You didn't explain why they similar.

Tell you what, give me three good similarities betwen Jaya and Thriller Bark.  Can you do that?


----------



## tictactoc (Nov 12, 2007)

Sylar said:


> You didn't explain why they similar.
> 
> Tell you what, give me three good similarities betwen Jaya and Thriller Bark.  Can you do that?



My post explained why Enies Lobby wasn't similar to the other major arcs in the beginning. And c'mon there's some blatant similarities between some arcs. The whole "arrive to a new island, learn about big bad guy and his crew, encounter future nakama having a dream, fight big bad guy's crew with Luffy fighting the strongest one and Zorro the 2nd strongest one, in the end the future nakama agrees Luffy's proposition to join the crew, big party".


----------



## Taleran (Nov 12, 2007)

Absence said:


> I said how the plot was a rehash several times, its hardly my fault you guys can't/wont read.



oh well thank you for decribing 90% of fiction 




NO WAY THE GOOD GUYS FIGHT WITH THE BAD GUYS


HOLY FUCKING SHIT


----------



## Sasaki Kojirō (Nov 12, 2007)

I'd say my favorite villains in shounen are:
Dio Brando, Yoshikage Kira, Makoto Shishio, Hisoka, Kuroro Lucifer and Tyki Mikk.

My favorite villains recently have all been seinen though:
Desty Nova, Johan, Griffith...their depth is so amazing.


----------



## Timur Lane (Nov 12, 2007)

I have heard some disturbing shit about Desty Nova, something about having an obsession with brains or something.....

I really need to get into Battle Angel Alita, it looks way too awesome to just ignore.


----------



## Fang (Nov 12, 2007)

The Faint Smile said:


> I'd say my favorite villains in shounen are:
> Dio Brando, Yoshikage Kira, Makoto Shishio, Hisoka, Kuroro Lucifer and Tyki Mikk.
> 
> My favorite villains recently have all been seinen though:
> Desty Nova, Johan, Griffith...their depth is so amazing.



Thanks for not mentioning DSPV.


----------



## Sasaki Kojirō (Nov 12, 2007)

It's one of the best manga I've ever read easily and I've read some good ones.  Desty is delightfully psychotic but he has motivation and the scenes he has with Alita near the end of the manga go way beyond the usual hero/villain relationship.

Edit- DSPV?..


----------



## Ork (Nov 12, 2007)

Taleran said:


> oh well thank you for decribing 90% of fiction
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Still not one worthwhile argument so far this thread.


----------



## Taleran (Nov 12, 2007)

Demon Space Pirate Vegeta


----------



## Fang (Nov 12, 2007)

I confused TFS's with Dio's post. Whoops.


----------



## Detonator_Fan (Nov 12, 2007)

Orochimaru, Itachi and the Genei Ryodan (including that cute girl with glasses and a hot body).


----------



## Codde (Nov 12, 2007)

tictactoc said:


> Moreover the whole "my manga's gonna last another 10 years" just makes it clear that Oda doesn't intend to change his formula :/


I don't recall Oda ever saying that. Only thing close was that he planned to make it 5 years originally but now that it's 9 he doesn't know when it's going to end. Though a few months ago he said the manga is in it's later stages, so likely less than 450 chapters till the finish.




tictactoc said:


> My post explained why Enies Lobby wasn't similar to the other major arcs in the beginning. And c'mon there's some blatant similarities between some arcs. The whole "arrive to a new island, learn about big bad guy and his crew, encounter future nakama having a dream, fight big bad guy's crew with Luffy fighting the strongest one and Zorro the 2nd strongest one, in the end the future nakama agrees Luffy's proposition to join the crew, big party".



They clearly have to arrive at a new island seeing as how (unlike Naruto for example) it's an adventure manga, with their goal lying some place else. And I'm pretty sure that the join rate per arc isn't 100% (or even close.) A lot of the smaller locations they went to didn't have any "big bad guy" either. To make an arc a larger one, would of course probably need some conflict.


As for currently in the jump, I'm finding the King and the Royal Guards interesting. Though they don't have a lot of 'substance' so far, but I'm anticipating seeing more of them. Aside from that, would be Moria, who I'm hoping does more things himself for the rest of the arc. 

For the series as a whole, One Piece has a relatively large cast of potentially great villians including Shichibukai, Admirals, Emperors, etc... And while Naruto as a whole I don't find amazing, I'm anticipating what Kishimoto does with Danzou and Kabuto's role in the manga from this point.


----------



## tictactoc (Nov 12, 2007)

Code said:


> I don't recall Oda ever saying that. Only thing close was that he planned to make it 5 years originally but now that it's 9 he doesn't know when it's going to end. Though a few months ago he said the manga is in it's later stages, so likely less than 450 chapters till the finish.



Manga is in its later stages ? He said he was halfway in One piece. Meaning that except if he doesn't introduce characters way stronger than Shanks, Whitebeard etc... We still have to wait a long time before seeing the closure of the main storyline.


----------



## CocoPuffs (Nov 12, 2007)

tyki mikk for the win, even his name is made of win (it makes me think of coconuts) XD


----------



## Fang (Nov 12, 2007)

One Piece's Crocodile, Dragonball's Piccolo Daimou, Freeza or Cell are all top choices. Sensui....no if this was for all time.


----------



## Codde (Nov 12, 2007)

tictactoc said:


> Manga is in its later stages ? He said he was halfway in One piece. Meaning that except if he doesn't introduce characters way stronger than Shanks, Whitebeard etc... We still have to wait a long time before seeing the closure of the main storyline.


I recall this "Oda says its halfway" being stated ever since Skypiea (the date it was stated being repeatedly moved to the latest arc) without seeing anything aside from "supposedly hearing about it somewhere." I also don't remember coming across it in the SBS.

Regardless of where that originally came from, earlier in the year (or last year) Oda said that he has an ending in mind but doesn't know when it's going to end, but that his original plan of 5 years from the beginning was a bit off. So any comment about halfway seems to be irrelevant.


Though more recently, according to stephen (a well respected One Piece translator), the article mentions that Oda said it's already past its halfway point and it's in the later stages of the manga. This was about 4 months ago.

And I see no reason why the manga can't come to a closure in 200 chapters, nevermind 400. There's a tendency in fiction for things to go at a much faster pace as it reaches its climax and conclusion. Nor is there anything that "needs" to be done except Luffy and Nami reaching Raftel and finding One Piece while sailing the seas, Zoro beating Mihawk, and so on. Each doesn't require an exclusive Skypiea-sized arc to complete.


----------



## Ork (Nov 13, 2007)

Code said:


> And I see no reason why the manga can't come to a closure in 200 chapters, nevermind 400. There's a tendency in fiction for things to go at a much faster pace as it reaches its climax and conclusion. Nor is there anything that "needs" to be done except Luffy and Nami reaching Raftel and finding One Piece while sailing the seas, Zoro beating Mihawk, and so on. Each doesn't require an exclusive Skypiea-sized arc to complete.



Yeah, well, Oda will invent a crew for Mihawk, have Luffy fight shanks, And then Luffy has to pwn his way  through whitebeards crew, and then take on the WG. I can see each of those being a skypeia sized arc. Oh Joy.


----------



## Sasuke_fanboy (Nov 13, 2007)

Absence said:


> Yeah, well, Oda will invent a crew for Mihawk, have Luffy fight shanks, And then Luffy has to pwn his way  through whitebeards crew, and then take on the WG. I can see each of those being a skypeia sized arc. Oh Joy.



oh joy indead, but you forgot the rest of the schichbukai.


----------



## Codde (Nov 13, 2007)

Absence said:


> Yeah, well, Oda will invent a crew for Mihawk, have Luffy fight shanks, And then Luffy has to pwn his way  through whitebeards crew, and then take on the WG. I can see each of those being a skypeia sized arc. Oh Joy.


Well it seems you seem to know what Oda will do.

Though I don't expect any of those things to happen, but that's just my opinion based on what I have read so far. I don't see either being major arc opponents for Luffy, especially with a few other nemesis after him, both major an minor that Oda seems to be building up as oponents. Nor does the World Government have anything he wants, no reason for him to take over the job of another major power himself. Though there's a lot of things that can happen really (story isn't neccessarily as tied down as others.)


----------



## Ork (Nov 13, 2007)

Sasuke_fanboy said:


> oh joy indead, but you forgot the rest of the schichbukai.



Sorry, My bad, There's gay flamingo man too and stupid teleporting travel dude with a weird hat, and Moria's arc isnt even over yet, gah.
Joy.


----------



## Akatora (Nov 13, 2007)

CocoPuffs said:


> tyki mikk for the win, even his name is made of win (it makes me think of coconuts) XD



XD

Welll Mikk is pretty cool, Tyki just makes me laugh since thats the same as calling someone "Fatso" in my language

Though he really is an interesting Villian and clearly a favorit of mine


----------



## tictactoc (Nov 13, 2007)

Code said:


> I recall this "Oda says its halfway" being stated ever since Skypiea (the date it was stated being repeatedly moved to the latest arc) without seeing anything aside from "supposedly hearing about it somewhere." I also don't remember coming across it in the SBS.
> 
> Regardless of where that originally came from, earlier in the year (or last year) Oda said that he has an ending in mind but doesn't know when it's going to end, but that his original plan of 5 years from the beginning was a bit off. So any comment about halfway seems to be irrelevant.
> 
> ...



Well I hope you're right.
And I have no problem about One piece  lasting another 200 or even 400 chapter. But not with this plot formula, it would be seriously redundant in the end :/


----------



## Supa Swag (Nov 13, 2007)

Absence said:


> Yeah, well, Oda will invent a crew for Mihawk, have Luffy fight shanks, And then Luffy has to pwn his way  through whitebeards crew, and then take on the WG. I can see each of those being a skypeia sized arc. Oh Joy.



Why the hell does Mihawk need a crew?

Why does Luffy have to fight Shanks?

Why would Luffy/Whitebeard waste their time fighting each other when they have a common enemy in Blackbeard?


----------



## Ork (Nov 13, 2007)

Kitty Litter said:


> Why the hell does Mihawk need a crew?
> 
> 
> Why does Luffy have to fight Shanks?
> ...




Lol. thats like saying "Why does whitebeard need a crew?" So what if he's super strong, he can still have  a crew.

Whitebeard is a shichibukai pirate, Luffy wants to be Pirate king, unless luffy does something that makes Whitebeard his best friend suddenly, they're going to fight at some point, Hell, whitebeard even fought with the last Pirate king, Gold Roger.

Its a manga, Reasons are unnecesary because they can be Invented.
Why Does luffy NOT have to fight shanks? Because they're best friends? He's a shichibukai, but that aside, Luffy would fight through shanks crew and then take him  on, just to show how much he's grown. Then make up after.


----------



## Biolink (Nov 13, 2007)

Diego Brando


----------



## Fang (Nov 13, 2007)

Just because your one of the Seven Warlords, doens't mean you have to a have a crew.


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## WHITEBEARD inactive (Nov 13, 2007)

Absence said:


> Lol. thats like saying "Why does whitebeard need a crew?" *So what if he's super strong, he can still have  a crew*.



Not when Oda stated that he sails the whole One Piece world alone. 



> *Whitebeard is a shichibukai pirate*, Luffy wants to be Pirate king, *unless luffy does something that makes Whitebeard his best friend suddenly, they're going to fight at some point*, Hell, whitebeard even fought with the last Pirate king, Gold Roger.



Whitebeard is a Yonkou, Whitebeards crew could be taken down by Shanks crew, or Whitebeard could take down shanks crew then be taken down by Blackbeard. You act as if the SH crew is going to fight every one in the 3 Great Powers.


----------



## Fang (Nov 13, 2007)

But likely every one of the Shichibukai, amiright?


----------



## WHITEBEARD inactive (Nov 13, 2007)

Wats U talkin bout?


----------



## Fang (Nov 13, 2007)

He's going to fight every member of the Shichibukai, Luffy and the Mugiwara Pirates that is.


----------



## WHITEBEARD inactive (Nov 13, 2007)

& what makes you say this?


----------



## Fang (Nov 13, 2007)

Because Luffy and the World Goverment are at odds?


----------



## WHITEBEARD inactive (Nov 13, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Because Luffy and the World Goverment are at odds?



& Since when do the Shichibukai jump when the WG tells em to?


----------



## Ork (Nov 14, 2007)

WHITEBEARD said:


> & Since when do the Shichibukai jump when the WG tells em to?



Well one does, aside from that luffy's crew has somehow or other come into a fight with: Mihawk, Croc, Moria, blackbeard is coming because he went evil on Luffy's bro, seeing the pattern here yet? I reckon the stupid guy who teleports people will be told by the WG to take luffy down when he beats moria. Or at some point, it was hinted at in the chat, the thing is, even if luffy doesnt want to fight the WG (which he probably does after they way they treated Robin), The WG doesnt want the Balance of power screwed up, Bartho actually SAID they were worried the strawhats would kill another shichibukai. 

So far it looks a lot to me like luffy and co are going to fight EVERYONE.
And whitebeard sails the World alone? Since freaking when? He has a huge crew, if you remember, Luffies BROTHER is a member of it.

As for mihawk, Arguments about Oda's Plotholes aside, if he DOESNT have a crew somewhere, then he's just a killer, not a pirate.


----------



## Parallax (Nov 14, 2007)

After reading most of Absence's posts I'm convinced that not only does he not read One Piece, he has no reading comprehension.


----------



## Fang (Nov 14, 2007)

Parallax said:


> After reading most of Absence's posts I'm convinced that not only does he not read One Piece, he has no reading comprehension.



What makes you say that?


----------



## Parallax (Nov 14, 2007)

oh iono, the fact that he claimed that Whitebeard is a Shichibukai, or how Mihawk HAS to have a crew, even though it was stated that he sails alone.

Or I can just be making things up


----------



## Fang (Nov 14, 2007)

You are very good at detail, Parallax.


----------



## Parallax (Nov 14, 2007)

I certainly hope so


----------



## Codde (Nov 14, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Because Luffy and the World Goverment are at odds?


Every pirates (Save for the Shichibukai) and the World Government are at odds. Nor is the Strawhats the only pirates actively aiming for One Piece. Moria himself was defeated by someone who is likely a pirate before he faced the Strawhats. I dont' see a reason why he has to encounter every one of the major powers and defeat them. Mihawk (for Zoro) is really the only guaranteed match.


----------



## Aldric (Nov 14, 2007)

And Blackbeard, since he's shaping up to be the final villain.

Akainu seems to be a given as well, with his history with Robin and the fact he seems to be the perfect representative of the "dark side" of the WG.

Other than these three I don't see the Strawhats defeating any other member of the 3 Great Powers.


----------



## Akatora (Nov 14, 2007)

Parallax said:


> After reading most of Absence's posts I'm convinced that not only does he not read One Piece, he has no reading comprehension.




Or rather either do not pay as much attention to it as some others do, The option he's trying to forget it, is also an option.



*Spoiler*: __ 



And actually your word choice is quite nice since it can be seen it 2 ways.
1) He never read OP
2) he's not reading OP atm


Personally i don't read OP (anymore) and i've forgotten alot of it(and i don't regret that)




Mihawk getting a crew well could happen since it's a shounen so there'd be more characters to beat.


----------



## Taleran (Nov 14, 2007)

yes but it wouldn't make any sense with his character (however lame that character happens to be)



oh thats a good one Deigo and the President of the USA (No joke) in Steel  Ball Run


----------



## Zephos (Nov 14, 2007)

> Well one does, aside from that luffy's crew has somehow or other come into a fight with: Mihawk, Croc, Moria, blackbeard is coming because he went evil on Luffy's bro,



Blackbeard was probably looking for Luffy to take down a big bounty, which was likely fulfilled by Ace. Ergo he isn't cominga nymore.



> seeing the pattern here yet?



They only have had an uber fight with two Shichibukai, both of which havn't happend in any sort of pattern to eachother.



> I reckon the stupid guy who teleports people will be told by the WG to take luffy down when he beats moria.



How is Kuma stupid?
He stated the WG is afraid of losing members to Luffy so why would they send one??



> the thing is, even if luffy doesnt want to fight the WG (which he probably does after they way they treated Robin), The WG doesnt want the Balance of power screwed up, Bartho actually SAID they were worried the strawhats would kill another shichibukai.



Exactly.....crushing your theory mostly.



> So far it looks a lot to me like luffy and co are going to fight EVERYONE.



Because they fought two big guys in two completely seperate incidents, right.


----------



## WHITEBEARD inactive (Nov 14, 2007)

Absence said:


> Well one does, aside from that luffy's crew has somehow or other come into a fight with: Mihawk, Croc, Moria, blackbeard is coming because he went evil on Luffy's bro, seeing the pattern here yet? *I reckon the stupid guy who teleports people will be told by the WG to take luffy down when he beats moria*. Or at some point, *it was hinted at in the chat*, the thing is, even if luffy doesnt want to fight the WG (which he probably does after they way they treated Robin), The WG doesnt want the Balance of power screwed up, Bartho actually SAID they were worried the strawhats would kill another shichibukai.





> - Page 15 -
> 
> Moria: *What are you sayin'... That the government is so scared of these runts,
> they need to throw TWO of us at them?!!*
> ...



& looking back at that convo does it look like Moria aksed for Kuma's help?



> So far it looks a lot to me like luffy and co are going to fight EVERYONE.
> And *whitebeard sails the World alone? Since freaking when? He has a huge crew, if you remember, Luffies BROTHER is a member of it*.



Mihawk, man Mihawk.



> As for mihawk, Arguments about Oda's Plotholes aside, if he DOESNT have a crew somewhere, then he's just a killer, not a pirate.



He is a Pirate, he just happens to sail the One Piece world alone.


----------



## Sylar (Nov 14, 2007)

Rockstar was a solo pirate before he joined Shanks crew.


----------



## Aokiji (Nov 14, 2007)

Being a pirate solo sounds strange though.


----------



## Taleran (Nov 14, 2007)

manyturk2 said:


> Being a pirate solo sounds strange though.



and One Piece isn't strange already?


----------



## Sasaki Kojirō (Nov 14, 2007)

Who needs a crew when you can wreck a whole fleet with a flick of your wrist?


----------



## Boromir (Nov 14, 2007)

Yagami Light, the main character from Death Note. He was SO insane and smart...


----------



## Aokiji (Nov 14, 2007)

Taleran said:


> and One Piece isn't strange already?



It gets stranger everyday.


----------



## Megadoomer (Nov 14, 2007)

In my opinion, it's either the Hakushuu Dinosaurs or Gecko Moria for current arc villains. Out of the other series that I read:

(DGM)*The Millennium Earl comes in third because I like his character, but he hasn't done much.

(Bleach)*Aizen has done almost nothing so far.

(Reborn)*Byakuran gets points for 
*Spoiler*: __ 



possibly killing the future Mukuro


, but he hasn't done much aside from that.

(Naruto)*Pain loses points for his generic, bland, copied-from-practically-every-major-character-in-the-series backstory.

(ES21)*The Hakushuu Dinosaurs, although they aren't as built up as the White Knights, have Gaoh and Marco on their side, and those two are interesting characters.  I could care less about the sickly bishonen (Kisaragi?), and Tengu is annoying.

(OP)*Moria looks ugly at first, but his appearance grew on me, and the fact that he, along with Oz, defeated 
*Spoiler*: __ 



every single Straw Hat Pirate except for Usopp, Nami, and Luffy


, shows what a powerhouse he is.


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## Fang (Nov 14, 2007)

Momochi Zabuza from Naruto, not the best in current Shonen, but the best from Naruto by far.


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## Parallax (Nov 14, 2007)

Really Shiroi, I actually thought Orochimaru to be a much more interesting villain, at least at first...


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## Codde (Nov 15, 2007)

I never payed attention to Orochimaru really, until the end of the Chuunin Exams where I found him sort of a sore point in Naruto. I actually didn't have a problem with any of the villians in Naruto in Part 1 save for Orochimaru and some of the Sound 4. In Part 2, they generally started out great but end up looking pathetic (Hidan, Kakuzu, Pein, etc...)


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## Agmaster (Nov 15, 2007)

Nnoitra.  I miss antagonists with savagery and intellect.  I really don't take Moira seriously, course I don't take anyone in OP seriously.  It's all a huge game/race.  I like that.

Best villain in current?  I'll bend the rules and say L.  After all, he was Light's roadblock.


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## Fang (Nov 15, 2007)

Parallax said:


> Really Shiroi, I actually thought Orochimaru to be a much more interesting villain, at least at first...



Not at all. Orochimaru stopped being an interesting antagonist after getting his ass kicked by a 70 year old man...when he had the element of surprise, over month's time in preperation and the advantage of two immortal Hokages + his own youth.



Zabuza is GAR, through and through.


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## MdB (Nov 16, 2007)

Some of the arguments in this thread are laughable at best (I wont call any names because there fucking obvious). HEY GUYS I LIKE RED HERRING AND I LOVE TO MAKE ARGUMENTS STRUCTURED THROUGH FLAWED LOGIC. Isn't it awesome?


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## WHITEBEARD inactive (Nov 16, 2007)

Naraku.


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## Castiel (Nov 16, 2007)

oh damn Marco from E21 is acting particularly ruthless recently i mean sacrificing his own men for victory.  i hope someone breaks him


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## Fang (Nov 17, 2007)

WHITEBEARD said:


> Naraku.



Yes, Naraku is the end all of creative villians...the utter epitome.


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## Parallax (Nov 17, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Yes, Naraku is the end all of creative villians...the utter epitome.



You mean I'm not the only one who thought that? :amazed


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## WHITEBEARD inactive (Nov 17, 2007)

I thought it 2.


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## MdB (Nov 17, 2007)

Parallax said:


> You mean I'm not the only one who thought that? :amazed



Who doesn't hate Inuyasha and everything related to it?


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## WHITEBEARD inactive (Nov 17, 2007)

Naraku is a badazz.


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## The Sentry (Nov 17, 2007)

Naraku sucks man


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## WHITEBEARD inactive (Nov 17, 2007)

Who lied to you?


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## Ryu19 (Nov 17, 2007)

My problem with Naraku as a villian is his freaking shield. A real villian fights his enemies head on like Shisio, Creed, or Victor. In current Shonen Jump I think Aizen is pretty intersting. I wish OP had a main villian but I'm sure one will show up. Itachi's okay also.


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## The Sentry (Nov 17, 2007)

My dad


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## MdB (Nov 17, 2007)

Ryu19 said:


> My problem with Naraku as a villian is his freaking shield. A real villian fights his enemies head on like Shisio, Creed, or Victor. In current Shonen Jump I think Aizen is pretty intersting. I wish OP had a main villian but I'm sure one will show up. Itachi's okay also.



Blackbeard is potrayed as the main antagonist or at least a major one. Same could be said about the 5 elder stars.


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## Ryu19 (Nov 17, 2007)

Oh yeah, forgot about them. I'm also getting a major villian vibe from Dragon. What do you think about that?


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## Fang (Nov 17, 2007)

Lord Kamina said:


> Who doesn't hate Inuyasha and everything related to it?



O rly? 

A great antagonist in general would be Eko but I'm pretty sure Karas has nothing to do with Shonen Jump.


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## Birkin (Nov 17, 2007)

Kuroro Lucifer.


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## Fang (Nov 17, 2007)

What about Piccolo Daimou?


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## Sylar (Nov 17, 2007)

You know what Shonen manga needs?

A Kefka.


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## Byakuya (Nov 17, 2007)

Kefka would be too much awesomeness for Shonen.


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## Morpheus (Nov 17, 2007)

Final Fantasy VI manga 

JJBA is still ongoing, so i'd have to say Dio Brando. Also Diavolo, The Pillar Men, Risotto Nero and Yoshikage Kira.

Kuroro Lucifer is pretty good too.


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## G-Man (Nov 17, 2007)

Ryu19 said:


> My problem with Naraku as a villian is his freaking shield. A real villian fights his enemies head on like Shisio, Creed, or Victor. In current Shonen Jump I think Aizen is pretty intersting. I wish OP had a main villian but I'm sure one will show up. Itachi's okay also.



Wait, wait, wait.  You're complaining about Naraku's shield, meanwhile you accept Itachi, the King of the Art of Run-Away?

And Aizen has quite possibly the cheapest ability of any villain in Shonen Jump history!  His illusions aren't much fairier or "fighting head-on" than Naraku's barriers.

Creed?  You mean Creed Diskenth from Black Cat?  That nutjob that was gay for Train despite having a hot former actress practically begging him to take her?  He was a deluded kook.  The moment he was defeated and he knew they were going to take away his immortality he was begging for the teleporter woman to save him.  Real manly there...

Victor (from Busou Renkin, right?) was awesome though, I'll grant you that.  But he certainly wasn't a villain.  He was an anti-hero who believed that since alchemy caused so much suffering it should be erased completely from the Earth.  If all the Alchemist Warriors got rid of their weapons, Victor would probably go after homunculi then after killing all homunculi, he'd kill himself or flee the planet to avoid harming innocents.

Shishio wasn't a real villain, he was battle-crazed anarchist!  He honestly thought his way was what was best for the country of Japan.  He wasn't doing for sheer greed or anything like that, but because in his sick warped mind, he was a true patriot who understood that life was harsh and unforgiving and you had to be mercilessly unyielding in order to run a nation as a world power.

If anything, Naraku was the sole redeeming aspect of Inuyasha for the sheer factr that he's one of the few villains in all of fiction that uses common damn sense.

Fighting head on?  No real villain does that!  A real villain hides himself in the shadows while manipulating others into doing his dirty work for him!  All the while laughing as the heroes and his minions dance about the chessboard of his own design for his amusemnet!

The hero gets  a super power-up?  Naraku retreats until he gets a power-up himself!  That's common sense!

The hero is vulnerable, kill them immediately, but send minions to do it just in case they stop being helpless while you are attacking.  That's common sense.

A real villain is a selfish coward who will never risk himself when he/she can sacrifice minions instead!

It's okay to hate Naraku, that's the point of his character!  You're not supposed to think, "Oh, wow!  That Naraku is so awesome!  I wish I was just like him!"  You're supposed to think, "Damn, that Naraku!  I'll be jumping for joy when the good guys finally beat him!"

It's not Naraku's fault that Rumiko-sensei drags out her series way too much.  A good character (villain in this case) shouldn't be reviled just because the author who created him/her has let their writing degrade into repetitive crap (not that repetitive crap doesn't sell, just look at Detective Conan and Pokemon).


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## $Naruto19$ (Nov 17, 2007)

Pein the akatsuki lider


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## WHITEBEARD inactive (Nov 17, 2007)

& Thats way Naraku is the best dame villian.


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## Muk (Nov 17, 2007)

Nothing Rivals Super Nova!!!!


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## Ork (Nov 17, 2007)

New fave villian, After Reading Angel Sanctuary, (which btw, I can't tell if its Shounen, Seinen or Shoujou) The Mad Hatter aka Belial. 

Girl: Don't tell me you were Naked when you met Lucifer for the first time!
Mad Hatter: Of Course not, One was wearing, very properly, A garter Belt and A Hat.

Mad Hatter is THE best Villian Ever ^^


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## Castiel (Nov 17, 2007)

WHITEBEARD said:


> Naraku.



InuYasha is printed in Shonen Sunday not SJ, although he is kinda cool despite the fact i haven't read all that much of inuyasha


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## Dimezanime88 (Nov 17, 2007)

Naraku. Apparently he can't die and that annoys the shit out of me! Usually I'm for the villain but god damn Naraku is annoying at being alive.


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## Spica (Nov 19, 2007)

Pein. Or Itachi. No, the entire Akatsuki! 

It's all about the hats.


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## Sylar (Jan 6, 2008)

Bartholomew Kuma.

WG: Kill them all.
Kuma: .... Easy.


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## Fang (Jan 6, 2008)

Carrs is cooler.


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## Graham Aker (Jan 6, 2008)

TWF said:


> Carrs is cooler.


because he's dead.


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## mystictrunks (Jan 6, 2008)

Kuma                                                            .


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## Chocochip (Jan 6, 2008)

Father from FMA


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## Castiel (Jan 6, 2008)

thegoodjae said:


> Father from FMA



FMA runs in Monthly Shonen Gangan


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## Sasaki Kojirō (Jan 6, 2008)

Superman Prime said:


> because he's dead.



Technically, he's still alive floating around in space...Might as well be dead though.

I probably already answered this thread...but I'm going with Hisoka, Kuroro Lucifer and Tyki Mikk.


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## Slips (Jan 6, 2008)

aye Kuma is more impressive than I though he would be.

I thought Oda was going to deliver another big dude that can slap the SH around


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## Mendoksue (Jan 7, 2008)

ichimaru beacuse hes blatently jus a bleach version of orochimaru


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## Fang (Jan 7, 2008)

What has Ichimaru done exactly since departing Soul Society with Aizen and Tousen to warrant this claim?


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## Sylar (Jan 7, 2008)

He's a bad guy and -maru is part of his name....


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## Fang (Jan 7, 2008)

Super Carrs is invincible and awesome.


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## Mendoksue (Jan 8, 2008)

blatently its all about the maru 
an he looks evil 
plus he knew all about aizen an helped turn hinamori against hitsugaya 
so i decided 
he deserved to be some credit


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## Spiral of Fate (Jan 21, 2008)

Madara Uchiha from Naruto...


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## Spike (Jan 21, 2008)

Stark from Bleach or Blackbeard from OP.


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