# Is Jiraiya > Itachi and Kisame?



## Bookworm (Apr 13, 2017)

Is Jiraiya stronger then both of them together? Is he on Itachi's or Kisame's level?

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Serene Grace (Apr 13, 2017)

A bait thread is a bait thread



Trolling said:


> Is he on Itachi's


Yes


Trolling said:


> Kisame's level?


hell no, he's way above him

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 13, 2017)

can't we all just agree that Minato speed blitzes all three?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 3 | Optimistic 1


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## Android (Apr 13, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> can't we all just agree that Minato speed blitzes all three?


No .

OT :
He can beat either one of the due .
There was no statement in the manga that says he can beat them together .
Anything else is in the realm of fanfiction .


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 13, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> No .


​

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Android (Apr 13, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> [LINKHL]146291[/LINKHL]​


Deal bruh !

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sapherosth (Apr 13, 2017)



Reactions: Funny 2


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

Both of them are far above SM Jiraiya, so much so that they casuay stomp him at will.

Let alone both of them 

Jiraiya is the bottom of mid Kage, Kisame is at the middle of high kage and Itachi is not far under that.

Jiraiya gets his shit pushed in by either.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Disagree 3


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## Android (Apr 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Both of them are far above SM Jiraiya, so much so that they casuay stomp him at will.
> 
> Let alone both of them
> 
> ...


Funny , cause i remember base Jiraiya casually shit stomping Kisame with one Jutsu


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## Bookworm (Apr 13, 2017)

@The Death & The Strawberry: What makes you think Jiraiya is on Itachi's level?


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

Trolling said:


> @The Death & The Strawberry: What makes you think Jiraiya is on Itachi's level?



inb4 nobody mentions any Sannin feats, only ridiculous hype


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## Anbu Knights (Apr 13, 2017)

J-man stomps on Kisame's head... that is made painfully obvious in the manga. He already made short work of him so we don't have to waste time arguing this lol.

As far as Itachi, SM Jiraiya and him are on a very similar tier. To say one clearly  trumps the other is laughable.

Could he beat both of them together? Given the right stipulations, absolutely. Even the duo admits this.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

Anbu Knights said:


> J-man stomps on Kisame's head... that is made painfully obvious in the manga.



Feats beg to differ, I don't give a shit what Kisame or Jiraiya said in P1, and nobody whos read past P1 should take it seriously either



Anbu Knights said:


> As far as Itachi, SM Jiraiya and him are on a very similar tier. To say one clearly trumps the other is laughable at best.



Tsukuyomi shit diffs Jiraiya, Jiraiya had no problem looking straight into Itachi's eyes in P1, he does the same in battle and it causes his loss.

Reminds me of his idiot student Minato


Anbu Knights said:


> Could he beat both of them together? Given the right stipulations, absolutely. Even the duo admits this.

Reactions: Dislike 4


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## Serene Grace (Apr 13, 2017)

Trolling said:


> @The Death & The Strawberry: What makes you think Jiraiya is on Itachi's level?


1. Same exact databook stats score
2. As implied that they would die against each other.
3. Frog Song one shots

Reactions: Like 2


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## Anbu Knights (Apr 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Feats beg to differ, I don't give a shit what Kisame or Jiraiya said in P1, and nobody whos read past P1 should take it seriously either



What Kisame said in part 1 isn't really credible considering he had no idea how strong Jiraiya actually was. I think anyone with a little common sense and logic can deduce this. Their encounter was mostly a battle of hype. I guess we can ignore Jiraiya cornering Kisame inside the toad and laying down pressure in base. 

But feats don't beg the differ, especially Jiraiya in Sage Mode w/ the elder toads. I'm not sure how this claim can even be made after what was shown against Pain.




Troyse22 said:


> Tsukuyomi shit diffs Jiraiya, Jiraiya had no problem looking straight into Itachi's eyes in P1, he does the same in battle and it causes his loss.



That's nice.

Nothing you quoted is altered in anyway.  Both Itachi and SM Jiraiya still exist well within the same tier.



Troyse22 said:


> Reminds me of his idiot student Minato



Oh no! Minato disrespect, I am extremely triggered.

I can already see what type of argument this will be so I'm going to go ahead and withdraw lmao.


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## Bookworm (Apr 13, 2017)

P


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> 1. Same exact databook stats score
> 2. As implied that they would die against each other.
> 3. Frog Song one shots



1. So if their DB scores are the same their the same level?
2. When did he indicate he was talking about Jiraiya when he said that?
3. He would have to get into SM, then buy time for the jutsu to work.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 13, 2017)

Trolling said:


> So if their DB scores are the same their same level?


Yes, in a way it does. If anything we can say it hints towards such. Then we add Kishi constant potrayal of the eyes=body and it pretty much ices the cake



Trolling said:


> . When did he indicate he was talking about Jiraiya when he said that?


I'm out, this is my last reply. You can't be serious who else was he talking about? Kid Naruto



Trolling said:


> 3. He would have to get into SM, then buy time for the jutsu to work


Which he wouldn't have much of a problem doing. Since Itachi isn't gonna start off with any MS techs, plus adding the fact that Jiraiya could use his Sensing barrier to sense any oncoming assaults, getting into SM wouldn't be too hard.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

Anbu Knights said:


> What Kisame said in part 1 isn't really credible considering he had no idea how strong Jiraiya actually was. I think anyone with a little common sense and logic can deduce this. Their encounter was mostly a battle of hype. I guess we can ignore Jiraiya cornering Kisame inside the toad and laying down pressure in base.



Well done, a Sannin wanker who actually has a bit of common sense, it's rare.



Anbu Knights said:


> But feats don't beg the differ, especially Jiraiya in Sage Mode w/ the elder toads. I'm not sure how this claim can even be made after what was shown against Pain.



Low diffing Killer Bee>Getting low diffed by Pain who didn't use Deva.



Anbu Knights said:


> That's nice.
> 
> Nothing you quoted is altered in anyway. Both Itachi and SM Jiraiya still exist well within the same tier



Nah, both Itachi and Kisame are in another league.


Apparently now Frog Song hits before Tsukuyomi.


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## sabre320 (Apr 13, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> can't we all just agree that Minato speed blitzes all three?


In bm sure;p or if they are marked

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bookworm (Apr 13, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Yes, in a way it does. If anything we can say it hints towards such. Then we add Kishi constant potrayal of the eyes=body and it pretty much ices the cake


No it doesn't. Neji had 21 stat total first DB and Naruto has 14.5.


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I'm out, this is my last reply. You can't be serious who else was he talking about? Kid Naruto


First off if he was talking about Jiraiya Kisame replying the way he did makes no sense, if you can't see that that's on you. Secondly Naruto is the jinchuriki of the strongest bijuu. Worst case scenario they would have to fight someone on the 9 tails level.


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Which he wouldn't have much of a problem doing. Since Itachi isn't gonna start off with any MS techs, plus adding the fact that Jiraiya could use his Sensing barrier to sensing any oncoming assaults, getting into SM wouldn't be too hard.


Jiraiya has to stay still to get into SM. He only used the sensing barrier to see an Invisible summon.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 13, 2017)

Jman is pretty well on par with itachi

Id put my money on the uchiha in a 1v1 fight between em under most circumstances tho tbh

Jman annihilates kisame in any 1v1 scenario where Jman doesnt start the fight already drowning

Jman has 0 chance against the duo in a 1v2

My 2 cents


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## Infernal Imp (Apr 13, 2017)

Jiraiya gets walked all over by both of them. Kisame isn't a light weight like everybody thinks based on that brief part I scuffle, Jiraiya is going to have mid difficulty at least. Throwing in Itachi who is >= Jman makes it a loss for him, SM or not.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## LostSelf (Apr 13, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Yes, in a way it does. If anything we can say it hints towards such. Then we add Kishi constant potrayal of the eyes=body and it pretty much ices the cake



Asuma has a 32.5 databook score and Hidan a 31.5 and he said Hidan is stronger than him. I don't think Databooks as a whole means something.
-------
Can Jiraiya beat Itachi and Kisame together?: Yes, if he attacks them in their sleep. Otherwise, not a chance.
Is he on Itachi's level?: If we mean tier, possibly. If we mean level, not sure. Don't think so.
Is he on Kisame's level? No. Jiraiya is above everybody in Akatsuki save the Doujutsu trio.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## J★J♥ (Apr 13, 2017)

Trolling said:


> Is Jiraiya stronger then both of them together? Is he on Itachi's or Kisame's level?


By far.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 13, 2017)

Nope

Never mind

Was gonna quote something else but i changed my mind


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## Serene Grace (Apr 13, 2017)

Trolling said:


> No it doesn't. Neji had 21 stat total first DB and Naruto has 14.5.
> 
> First off if he was talking about Jiraiya Kisame replying the way he did makes no sense, if you can't see that that's on you. Secondly Naruto is the jinchuriki of the strongest bijuu. Worst case scenario they would have to fight someone on the 9 tails level.
> 
> Jiraiya has to stay still to get into SM. He only used the sensing barrier to see an Invisible summon.


OK so you think Kisame was talking about kid Naruto?  Yah I'm definitely done with this convo, peace


LostSelf said:


> Asuma has a 32.5 databook score and Hidan a 31.5 and he said Hidan is stronger than him. I don't think Databooks as a whole means something.
> -------
> Can Jiraiya beat Itachi and Kisame together?: Yes, if he attacks them in their sleep. Otherwise, not a chance.
> Is he on Itachi's level?: If we mean tier, possibly. If we mean level, not sure. Don't think so.
> Is he on Kisame's level? No. Jiraiya is above everybody in Akatsuki save the Doujutsu trio.


Yah heres the thing data book is useless when canon completely disagrees, but when that really isn't the case, and then the author goes out his way to imply that both are on the same level, as well as a his consistent potrayal of eyes=body, then having equal databook stats have meaning, imo it's seems as if kishi is giving off hints in a way. From an overall view databook stats can be senn as something with little value, but when theres canon that perfectly supports it, it gains meaning as well as substance. Though that's just the way I see it, if you disagree I'm perfectly fine with that

Reactions: Like 2


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## LostSelf (Apr 13, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> OK so you think Kisame was talking about kid Naruto?  Yah I'm definitely done with this convos, peace
> 
> Yah heres the thing data book is useless when canon completely disagrees, but when that really isn't the case, and then the author goes out his way to imply that both are on the same level, as well as a his consistent potrayal of eyes=body, then having equal databook stats have meaning, imo it's seems as if kishi is giving off hints in a way. Though that's just the way I see it, if you disagree I'm perfectpy fine with that



But when the author said that? The only comparison we had to Itachi and Sannin is when Orochimaru said Itachi was stronger than him. Of course, that's if we do not take the Jiraiya = Itachi + Kisame + backup thing (Wich i don't, not much, to be honest).

Even though i am not generally putting the Sannin as equals and think Jiraiya is stronger than Orochimaru, i don't think he's that much stronger. 

I mean, Jiraiya didn't know what Amaterasu was. And was in base. Itachi saying that but being capable of one-shotting Jiraiya there is... weird.

But Kishi be Kishi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 13, 2017)

Trolling said:


> First off if he was talking about Jiraiya Kisame replying the way he did makes no sense, if you can't see that that's on you. Secondly Naruto is the jinchuriki of the strongest bijuu. Worst case scenario they would have to fight someone on the 9 tails level.



Boy the Akatsuki's mission is to catch jinchuurikis, so if your implying that Kisame was talking about Genin Naruto that doesn't know how to control Kurama's power then wtf lol.... Roshi < Genin Naruto? Killer B < Genin Naruto? No, he was obviously talking about Jiraiya, unless you think Jman < Genin Naruto


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## Bookworm (Apr 13, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Boy the Akatsuki's mission is to catch jinchuurikis, so if your implying that Kisame was talking about Genin Naruto that doesn't know how to control Kurama's power then wtf lol.... Roshi < Genin Naruto? Killer B < Genin Naruto? No, he was obviously talking about Jiraiya, unless you think Jman < Genin Naruto


Did Kisame know, that Naruto didn't know how to control the nine tails? What matters is if Naruto knows how to bring out and control the full power of the nine tails, not if he's a genin. Besides it like I said it kisame's reply wouldn't make sense if he was talking about Jiraiya initially.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 13, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Of course, that's if we do not take the Jiraiya = Itachi + Kisame + backup thing (Wich i don't, not much, to be honest).


I don't get this, where did Itachi state he would need Kisame? As for the akatsuki backup thing he could have easily been referring to the weakest of the akatsuki, there's also the fact that we weren't a hundred 100% how strong the akatsuki member's were at the time 



LostSelf said:


> Even though i am not generally putting the Sannin as equals and think Jiraiya is stronger than Orochimaru, i don't think he's that much stronger.


But Oro made that statement when he was in exteremly critical condtion. I don't see how that dictates a healthy Oro. I do believe Itachi is superior to Oro, just not to the extent people make it out to be.



LostSelf said:


> I mean, Jiraiya didn't know what Amaterasu was. And was in base. Itachi saying that but being capable of one-shotting Jiraiya there is... weird.


Yah but here's the thing. Itachi rarely uses MS techs, unless he really has to, as made evident when he emphasized that Jiraiya forced him to use Amaterasu as well as him having to use Tsukuyomi. Also going by this logic, I could say Jiraiya sinks Itachi in the Yomi Numa swamp since he has no knowledge on it, but we already know that isn't gonna happen same thing with Itachi with Amaterasu

Reactions: Like 1


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## LostSelf (Apr 13, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I don't get this, where did Itachi state he would need Kisame? As for the akatsuki backup thing he could have easily been referring to the weakest of the akatsuki, there's also the fact that we weren't a hundred 100% how strong the akatsuki member's were at the time



He said even if Kisame fought alongside Itachi, the outcome would be the same, even with more backup.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> But Oro made that statement when he was in exteremly critical condtion. I don't see how that dictates a healthy Oro. I do believe Itachi is superior to Oro, just not to the extent people make it out to be.



Healthy Orochimaru tried to take 13 year old Itachi's body and was put in his place. In that very moment Orochimaru knew he was no match for Itachi. His comment stayed after.

Not to mention, that Itachi defeated Orochimaru's strongest form blind and agonizing. THat's some serious handicap that shows the difference between both.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Yah but here's the thing. Itachi rarely uses MS techs, unless he really has to, as made evident when he emphasized that Jiraiya forced him to use Amaterasu as well as him having to use Tsukuyomi. Also going by this logic, I could say Jiraiya sinks Itachi in the Yomi Numa swamp since he has no knowledge on it, but we already know that isn't gonna happen same thing with Itachi with Amaterasu



Itachi rarely uses them, but it doesn't change the fact that he could. About Yomi Numa, i think Susano'o can help with that.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 13, 2017)

Jiraiya would need to start the match in Sage Mode - with Frog Song prepared before the match even starts - in order to defeat both Itachi and Kisame simultaneously. Otherwise, he gets curbstomped by them.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 13, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> He said even if Kisame fought alongside Itachi, the outcome would be the same, even with more backup.


He said "And even if I had more backup, it probably wouldn't change the outcome" I don't see a direct mention or indication that he was referring  was Kisame.



LostSelf said:


> Healthy Orochimaru tried to take 13 year old Itachi's body and was put in his place. In that very moment Orochimaru knew he was no match for Itachi.


But Oro wasn't trying to Kill Itachometer though. He was simply trying to steal his body, and I see his defeat being more about his arrogance than Itachi being exteremly superior as he stared directly into Itachis eyes whole being aware of the sharingan capabilities.


LostSelf said:


> Itachi rarely uses them, but it doesn't change the fact that he could.


Same can be said about a plethora of different techs, still doesn't change the fact that said scenario would be extremely unlikely.



LostSelf said:


> About Yomi Numa, i think Susano'o can help with that.


But wouldn't Susanoo make Itachi heavier, ultimately making him sink faster? Even if we ignore that, and say Susanoo just tries to out power it, Jiraiya could simply increase the depth as well as its suction strength by simply infusing more chakra into the swamp. Again I don't believe that Jiraiya would do this, I'm simply using the same "Amaterasu" logic.



LostSelf said:


> Not to mention, that Itachi defeated Orochimaru's strongest form blind and agonizing. THat's some serious handicap that shows the difference between both.


Outside of Totsuka blade, that match would have lasted forever since Itachi would have no real way of putting Oro down, and even I believe that Oro losing and getting hit by Totsuka blade was a product of his arrogance again since he literally just ignored the gigantic blade that was right in front of him and just continued to express his domiance instead of well..doing something. Anyways Itachi beating Oro doesn't really mean that there not in the same tier list or that Itachi is ridiculously superior to him, as Naruto lost to Sasuke yet he was clearly higher on a tier list, Muu and Gen gets stalemated, yet Muu was still shown to superior if we take account to how much trouble he gave the shinobi alliance+naruto and Co as well as his abilities that would likely put him over gengetsu in a tier list.

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## The_Conqueror (Apr 13, 2017)

The thing is taken out of proportion. Kisame was a fodder there . Neither is he in same class as jiraiya /Itachi nor has shown any combo attacks or partnership like hidan kakazu for that matter. So he would only be a trouble to itachi who would need to be saved again and again as seen with toad mouth stomach itachi was forced a taxing technique to save himself and kisame. So it would be itachi vs jiraiya where Kisame would have been told to gtfo. Jiraiya could also fall back and go to SM after realizing how dangerous itachi was. 
With itachi already having use mangekyou gai backing up and anbu yet to come there would have been just one result had the fight been there.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (Apr 13, 2017)

Jiraiya's not stronger then both of them together but he is on Itachi's general lvl and above Kisame's lvl

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 13, 2017)

Trolling said:


> Did Kisame know, that Naruto didn't know how to control the nine tails? What matters is if Naruto knows how to bring out and control the full power of the nine tails, not if he's a genin. Besides it like I said it kisame's reply wouldn't make sense if he was talking about Jiraiya initially.



Did Kisame know about Roshi or Killer B's power? No, all he knew was that they where the Jinchuurikis of x tailed beasts and did he ever state that hes in a different league then them? No, he didn't thats why he won, so for you to think that Kisame was talking about Naruto who doesn't know how to control Kurama's power or could barely beat Genin Neji...


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## Anbu Knights (Apr 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Well done, a Sannin wanker who actually has a bit of common sense, it's rare.



I don't really favor the sannin (Tsunade especially) but I think you may be a little bias towards Kisame. Just an observation.




Troyse22 said:


> Low diffing Killer Bee>Getting low diffed by Pain who didn't use Deva.



In what manga did you read, did Killer B (who purposely gimped himself) get defeated with low difficulty? This is a either a crude joke or horrible interpretation of manga events, but Kisame literally struggled; as shown by attempting to use a hostage to his advantage.

In addition to this, his sword turned on him, and he pulled out a pinch technique never before seen. How could he have been stated to low diff ANYTHING???? Lmao.

Jiraiya being low diffed is honestly not worth addressing. You do understand three of them died right? Three of the six paths of pain were fodderized in one maneuver. Three out of six. HALF. 

I'm not sure if is the saninn defenders or the saninn themselves that trigger you so hard but if you honestly believe that, a reread of the battle is long overdue.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

Anbu Knights said:


> I don't really favor the sannin (Tsunade especially) but I think you may be a little bias towards Kisame. Just an observation.







Anbu Knights said:


> In what manga did you read, did Killer B (who purposely gimped himself) get defeated with low difficulty? This is a either a crude joke or horrible interpretation of manga events, but Kisame literally struggled; as shown by attempting to use a hostage to his advantage.



Kisame was restricted as well, something people forget. Not being "allowed" to kill your target is a huge restriction as it forces you to hold back.



Anbu Knights said:


> In addition to this, his sword turned on him, and he pulled out a pinch technique never before seen. How could he have been stated to low diff ANYTHING???? Lmao.



Not sure what a pinch technique is?



Anbu Knights said:


> Jiraiya being low diffed is honestly not worth addressing.



Why not? As soon as the six paths assembled, Jiraiya got his shit pushed in and Deva didn't even do anything.



Anbu Knights said:


> I'm not sure if is the saninn defenders or the saninn themselves that trigger you so hard but if you honestly believe that, a reread of the battle is long overdue.



I just rate the Sannin fairly is all. They're not above the Top 4 of the Akatsuki, they're not even in the same league, not even close. So much so that Itachi, Nagato, Obito and Kisame can curbstomp them on a whim and not even have to give it much thought.


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## Bookworm (Apr 13, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Did Kisame know about Roshi or Killer B's power? No, all he knew was that they where the Jinchuurikis of x tailed beasts and did he ever state that hes in a different league then them? No, he didn't thats why he won, so for you to think that Kisame was talking about Naruto who doesn't know how to control Kurama's power or could barely beat Genin Neji...



The nine tails with just half his chakra is the strongest bijuu, it's not the same. Kurama was able to defeat 5 other bijuu at the same time, with half chakra of the full nine tails.


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## Anbu Knights (Apr 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame was restricted as well, something people forget. Not being "allowed" to kill your target is a huge restriction as it forces you to hold back.



Kisame literally pulled out everything except Daikodan. He was playing as rough as possible, even threating to delimb him at one point. Kisame wasn't exactly fighting a sheet of glass...he pretty much could use his entire arsenal.

Bee on the other hand did not assume his most powerful form, that Kisame unarguably had no counters against.

Kisame's restrictions weren't even remotely as bad as Bee's in this match-up.



Troyse22 said:


> Not sure what a pinch technique is?



His fusing with Samahada etc..

That alone should be enough evidence that he was having trouble. We saw him struggle, so I'm not sure why this is in question. I'll just assume your definition of low difficulty is extremely different from my own.



Troyse22 said:


> I just rate the Sannin fairly is all. They're not above the Top 4 of the Akatsuki, they're not even in the same league, not even close. So much so that Itachi, Nagato, Obito and Kisame can curbstomp them on a whim and not even have to give it much thought.



The problem here is Kisame, and why you lump him in with characters like Obito or Nagato is well beyond me. He don't sit with the big dawgs at all. 

And since now I think you're trolling me. Touché


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

Anbu Knights said:


> Kisame literally pulled out everything except Daikodan. He was playing as rough as possible, even threating to delimb him at one point. Kisame wasn't exactly fighting a sheet of glass...he pretty much could use his entire arsenal.
> 
> Bee on the other hand did not assume his most powerful form, that Kisame unarguably had no counters against.
> 
> Kisame's restrictions weren't even remotely as bad as Bee's in this match-up.



V2 is by definition Bijuu power trapped in humanoid form. Realistically, V2 Perfect Jins>BM Jins in physical strength as it's more power per square meter. V2 is a seriously powerful mode that rivals BM, you're underestimating it.

1000 feeding sharks is Kisame's counter to BM, so yes he does have a counter to BM, and Daikodan is his Bijuudama counter.



Anbu Knights said:


> His fusing with Samahada etc..
> 
> That alone should be enough evidence that he was having trouble. We saw him struggle, so I'm not sure why this is in question. I'll just assume your definition of low difficulty is extremely different from my own.



But I don't know what you mean by a pinch technique...

Kisame never struggled until Bee went V2, and even then Kisame one-upped him by merging with Samehada. You could say Kisame was pressured into the merge, fair enough assessment, but once he merged it was easy from that point on.



Anbu Knights said:


> The problem here is Kisame, and why you lump him in with characters like Obito or Nagato is well beyond me. He don't sit with the big dawgs at all.



Based on feats he does.



Anbu Knights said:


> And since now I think you're trolling me. Touché



That accusation gets thrown my way by Guidingthunder quite a bit, and i'm not sure why, I don't think the things I say are "trolly".


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 13, 2017)

Trolling said:


> The nine tails with just half his chakra is the strongest bijuu, it's not the same. Kurama was able to defeat 5 other bijuu at the same time, with half chakra.



Really? I didint even bring up Itachi who haves amaterasu that can one shot a perfect Jinchuurki... so no, two Akatsuki members where obviously not talking about GENIN Naruto.... Jesus why is this even up for debate


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## Bookworm (Apr 13, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Really? I didint even bring up Itachi who haves amaterasu that can one shot a perfect Jinchuurki... so no, two Akatsuki members where obviously not talking about GENIN Naruto.... Jesus why is this even up for debate



Chakra  shroud can counter Amaterasu. Besides even if Amaterasu could one shot perfect jinchuriki, it definitely could one shot Jiraiya.


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## Charmed (Apr 13, 2017)

For me it would be like this:

>>>  > 

Together, they destroy Jiraiya!


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 13, 2017)

Trolling said:


> Chakra  shroud can counter Amaterasu. Besides even if Amaterasu could one shot perfect jinchuriki, it definitely could one shot Jiraiya.



Honestly your not worth my time with this claim of yours, like seriously .... Itachi and Kisame where clearly talking about Jman, its even more obvious when Kisame clings to Itachi when base Jiraiya summoned toad stomach.... and I never said Jman can survive Amaterasu....


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## Bookworm (Apr 13, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Honestly your not worth my time with this claim of yours, like seriously .... Itachi and Kisame where clearly talking about Jman, its even more obvious when Kisame clings to Itachi when base Jiraiya summoned toad stomach.... and I never said Jman can survive Amaterasu....



If Amaterasu would one shot Jiraiya, then your point about him not talking about Naruto because he could get one shot is a mute point, as they (Jiraiya and Naruto) would both be capable of being one shot, thus being in the same boat. But since chakra shroud can counter Amaterasu, that means Jiraiya would have been much more likely to get one shot then a jinchuriki that could fully control the nine tails.

Kisame looking to Itachi doesn't mean he was talking about Jiraiya when he said that "he" implied he might come up short. I mean if it was just Jiraiya and Kisame, Kisame could have flooded the place then fuse with samehada. Jiraiya would drown.

:metacat


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## Turrin (Apr 13, 2017)

Jiraiya >= Itachi. Kisame is a non factor, something he admitted twice, Itachi agreed with, and was directly shown in the hallway confrontation when he was absolutely useless and had to be saved by Itachi.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 13, 2017)

Turrin said:


> Jiraiya >= Itachi. Kisame is a non factor, something he admitted twice, Itachi agreed with, and was directly shown in the hallway confrontation when he was absolutely useless and had to be saved by Itachi.



Itachi saved Jiraiya, not Kisame.

We saw Samehada shred toad stomach when Kisame pulled it out of toad stomach, he could have flooded toad stomach forcing Jiraiya to rele...what's the point against someone like you 

His P1 statement is meaningless due to P2 feats.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Apr 13, 2017)

Trolling said:


> If Amaterasu would one shot Jiraiya, then your point about him not talking about Naruto because he could get one shot is a mute point, as they (Jiraiya and Naruto) would both be capable of being one shot, thus being in the same boat. But since chakra shroud can counter Amaterasu, that means Jiraiya would have been much more likely to get one shot then a jinchuriki that could fully control the nine tails.
> 
> Kisame looking to Itachi doesn't mean he was talking about Jiraiya when he said that "he" implied he might come up short. I mean if it was just Jiraiya and Kisame, Kisame could have flooded the place then fuse with samehada. Jiraiya would drown.
> 
> :metacat



Your name fits perfectly with you because seriously... are you trolling rn? First off how would either of them know about the chakra shrouds from a perfect Jinchuurki when they've never encountered one... further more Itachi using Amaterasu on one...

And about the toad stomach... really? Itachi had to use Amaterasu to go though it so you really think flooding a fucking stomach that Jiraiya haves control over with water will do anything... no, and the funny thing is it was a simple summon imagine Kisame dealing with a Jiraiya thats actually trying and not baby sitting a GENIN Naruto who cant control Kurama's power. Kishimoto clearly portrayed base Jiraiya over Kisame with a statement and with him doing nothing to help get through the stomach



Trolling said:


> Jiraiya would drown.


No Kisame would be eaten before he even thinks about that, if not he wouldve shown some type of Suiton... but nope


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## theRonin (Apr 14, 2017)

Hype and portrayal is on jiraiya's side. Feats are on the duo.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 14, 2017)

Turrin said:


> Jiraiya >= Itachi. Kisame is a non factor, something he admitted twice, Itachi agreed with, and was directly shown in the hallway confrontation when he was absolutely useless and had to be saved by Itachi.



No.

= yes, but assuming there's a > is a mistake.

I agree though, Kisame is someone that's not going to be insanely difficult for Jiraiya to handle.


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> No.
> 
> = yes, but assuming there's a > is a mistake.
> 
> I agree though, Kisame is someone that's not going to be insanely difficult for Jiraiya to handle.


I don't think it's a mistake, Itachi's ability as a Ninja fluctuated throughout the story, given his illness and eyesight problems, as well as his misguide at least in life ideology. So Itachi at his best was probably roughly equal to Jiriaya, but at his worst Jiriaya was certainly superior, this is supported by Itachi's own statement, that if he fought Jiriaya the best case scenario would be a draw, implying that there is the potential for a worse case scenario where he looses outright or Jiriaya kills him.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 2


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## LostSelf (Apr 14, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> He said "And even if I had more backup, it probably wouldn't change the outcome" I don't see a direct mention or indication that he was referring was Kisame.



Wich included Kisame. They were both together talking on taking on Jiraiya.Of course his comment had to include Kisame.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> But Oro wasn't trying to Kill Itachometer though. He was simply trying to steal his body, and I see his defeat being more about his arrogance than Itachi being exteremly superior as he stared directly into Itachis eyes whole being aware of the sharingan capabilities.



The mindset here doesn't matter. That clash set in stone who is superior to who, it was a show of dominance Itachi won over. Itachi himself said it to him. IMO if Kishimoto made something clear, then it is Itachi's superiority over Orochimaru. Not only two times he defeated him, but Oro also basically had to pursue Sasuke because Itachi was too much. And even had to wait until Itachi were not capable for combat to use his strongest form and take him out.

And even like that was destroyed.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Same can be said about a plethora of different techs, still doesn't change the fact that said scenario would be extremely unlikely.



I never said it were likely or unlikely. But Itachi could. I also guess Jiraiya even looked at Itachi's eyes (Don't remember, to be honest).



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> But wouldn't Susanoo make Itachi heavier, ultimately making him sink faster? Even if we ignore that, and say Susanoo just tries to out power it, Jiraiya could simply increase the depth as well as its suction strength by simply infusing more chakra into the swamp. Again I don't believe that Jiraiya would do this, I'm simply using the same "Amaterasu" logic.



He can use a Susano'o hand to yank off something and pull himself out. His Susano'o was holding itself a bit against CT's overwhelming pull. I think it should do the same here.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Outside of Totsuka blade, that match would have lasted forever since Itachi would have no real way of putting Oro down, and even I believe that Oro losing and getting hit by Totsuka blade was a product of his arrogance again since he literally just ignored the gigantic blade that was right in front of him and just continued to express his domiance instead of well..doing something. Anyways Itachi beating Oro doesn't really mean that there not in the same tier list or that Itachi is ridiculously superior to him, as Naruto lost to Sasuke yet he was clearly higher on a tier list, Muu and Gen gets stalemated, yet Muu was still shown to superior if we take account to how much trouble he gave the shinobi alliance+naruto and Co as well as his abilities that would likely put him over gengetsu in a tier list.



But lost. For the second time after admitting inferiority not only by him, by Sasuke too. Totsuka is part of Itachi's arsenal and it's not like Hydra is that evasive or has a direct counter to Totsuka. Itachi defeated him with his own techniques and skills. In his deathbed and without even seeing him, because he was blind.

Itachi, even without Totsuka, would've cut the Hydra's heads off either way. Since his Susano'o would possibly have the generic SUsano'o blade. Sure, Oro would've been hard to take down that way.

But if you need Itachi to be in his deathbed + blind + Totsuka restricted for Oro to stand a chance in his strongest form, then that just says how big is the difference between them.

And the difference between Mu and Gengetsu and Oro and Itachi is that: Mu and Gengetsu were said to be in the same level, they died stalemating themselves, and Gengetsu actually gave the alliance forces the same amount of troubles with the addition that he was even explaining them how his jutsu worked.

Oro sees Itachi's skills with 13 years old and backs off, he gives up pursuing Itachi for the same reason: Itachi is too much for him. He is said to be below Itachi by himself and Sasuke, wich, imo, just adds more fire to his defeat, healthy, against an Itachi that couldn't possibly even impregnate a girl yet. And then is shown losing with Itachi in his worst condition possible.

I think Kishi went too far out of his way to draw a line between Itachi and Orochimaru. Imo, of course. Only Sannin that can stand up to Itachi is Sage Jiraiya. The other two are not on his level.


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## Kai (Apr 14, 2017)

Well Itachi and Kisame together would waste Jiraiya. But first we need to correct the single worst myth that persists today. Itachi only refers to himself and Jiraiya when talking about facing off, his words don't imply including Kisame at all.

"If we faced off, we might end up killing each other...
..Even if *I* had more backup, it probably wouldn't change the outcome."


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## Troyse22 (Apr 14, 2017)

Turrin said:


> I don't think it's a mistake, Itachi's ability as a Ninja fluctuated throughout the story, given his illness and eyesight problems, as well as his misguide at least in life ideology. So Itachi at his best was probably roughly equal to Jiriaya, but at his worst Jiriaya was certainly superior, this is supported by Itachi's own statement, that if he fought Jiriaya the best case scenario would be a draw, implying that there is the potential for a worse case scenario where he looses outright or Jiriaya kills him.




Jiraiyaflash agreed with your post, now we just gotta get Izaya and Mithos to come in here and agree and you have the whole Sannin circle jerk.

Not even on Itachis worst day could Jiraiya stand against him, Itachi made that statement in order to further convince Kisame to pull back and stay away because Itachi was protecting Jiraiya.

Jiraiya is Sasori level, probably a little above Deidara too, Kakuzu forces Jiraiya to extreme difficulty and the top 4 of the Akatsuki (Kisame, Itachi, Obito and Nagato) wipe the floor with Jiraiya.


Their statements don't matter when feats put these 4 Akatsuki on a whole different power level.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Skaddix (Apr 14, 2017)

Itachi lied. And Kisame defers because he has no reason to think Itachi is lying and Itachi should be the expert on a Konoha Nin. 
Reputation wise is all Kisame has to go by.


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 14, 2017)

Against Jiraiya Kisame is literally useless , his base shitted all over Kisame there is nothing he can do if Jiraiya whips out SM as he can't aborsob that chakra 

So really it comes down to Itachi and Jiraiya and as Itachi explained so it comes down to the wire 

You're twisting his words and not painting the whole picture Itachi is basically more than likely dying and not built for a long confrontation and Kisame doesn't matchup well with Jiraiya 

Now if you switched it to Kisame + Itachi vs Bee a fight where Kisame has more of an advantage then you have some merit


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 14, 2017)

Turrin said:


> I don't think it's a mistake, Itachi's ability as a Ninja fluctuated throughout the story, given his illness and eyesight problems, as well as his misguide at least in life ideology. So Itachi at his best was probably roughly equal to Jiriaya, but at his worst Jiriaya was certainly superior, this is supported by Itachi's own statement, that if he fought Jiriaya the best case scenario would be a draw, implying that there is the potential for a worse case scenario where he looses outright or Jiriaya kills him.



What does his life and ideology have to do with his ability relative to Jiraiya?

That assumes Jiraiya would have a much easier time against a sick Itachi, he'd likely do so but he'd still struggle with Susanoo all the same. 

He said best case they'd draw, true. However, we saw Jiraiya's arsenal and Itachi's so we have the knowledge to assess that comment better. A draw at best is valid, however, if you're going to give the > to anyone, it'd be Itachi given the nature of V4 Susanoo.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Jiraiyaflash agreed with your post, now we just gotta get Izaya and Mithos to come in here and agree and *you have the whole Sannin circle jerk*.


I guess I'll just go do something else
​

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What does his life and ideology have to do with his ability relative to Jiraiya?


It has to do with his sucess and overall ability as a Ninja. Itachi took everything on himself and didn't trust others. This resulted in all of his efforts ending in failure; trying to put Sasuke on the right path, trying to keep Obito away, etc... While Jiriaya always understood the importance of collaboration and gave his life entrusting the future to his pupil, this resulted in unquestionable success and not just against Nagato, but even Obito in part credits Naruto's victory over him due to Jiraiya's efforts. It's not a tangible strength thing, but a how both would approach a situation and who would drive better results thing.



> That assumes Jiraiya would have a much easier time against a sick Itachi, he'd likely do so but he'd still struggle with Susanoo all the same.


So doesn't that mean that Jiraiya > Itachi



> He said best case they'd draw, true. However, we saw Jiraiya's arsenal and Itachi's so we have the knowledge to assess that comment better. A draw at best is valid, however, if you're going to give the > to anyone, it'd be Itachi given the nature of V4 Susanoo.


And I honestly think Jiraiya arsenal is better, as to me SM is > Susano'o, as it doesn't have an adverse effect on the user physically, versus MS which is a double edged sword, this is especially the case for Itachi due to his physical/eyesight issues, even more so if Itachi's having a bad day, like against Hebi-Sasuke where his eyes and health are really bad.

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 15, 2017)

Turrin said:


> It has to do with his sucess and overall ability as a Ninja. Itachi took everything on himself and didn't trust others. This resulted in all of his efforts ending in failure; trying to put Sasuke on the right path, trying to keep Obito away, etc... While Jiriaya always understood the importance of collaboration and gave his life entrusting the future to his pupil, this resulted in unquestionable success and not just against Nagato, but even Obito in part credits Naruto's victory over him due to Jiraiya's efforts. It's not a tangible strength thing, but a how both would approach a situation and who would drive better results thing.



This doesn't have any bearing on battle prowess. 



> So doesn't that mean that Jiraiya > Itachi



Excluding Susanoo, yes. However, Susanoo is still likely to be a game changer. Though, your approach will hold if Itachi uses the Sasuke approach, but Itachi not holding back will use Susanoo to attack. 



> And I honestly think Jiraiya arsenal is better, as to me SM is > Susano'o, as it doesn't have an adverse effect on the user physically, versus MS which is a double edged sword, this is especially the case for Itachi due to his physical/eyesight issues, even more so if Itachi's having a bad day, like against Hebi-Sasuke where his eyes and health are really bad.



Advantages of SM aside, Jiraiya still needs a way, an easy way, around Susanoo V4 which doesn't involve him needing to use a lot of effort to accomplish for us to concretely say he's above Itachi.

Note that a lot of the higher top tiers have easy ways around Susanoo.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 15, 2017)

I believe Itachi vs. Kabuto really forced people to reevaluate Jiraiya with his imperfect sage mode; as I see it prior to that I had Itachi comfortably above Jiraiya but now I do feel like it's more of an even battlefield, leaning towards Jiraiya because of the outrageous toad support he gets.

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## Yoko (Apr 15, 2017)

IMO, Kabuto's feats can only force people to reevaluate if we generalize Jiraiya and Kabuto them under the blanket term "Sage Mode", which unintentionally "equalizes" them by putting them in the same category almost the same way people throw around the term "Sannin" as if it is a defined level when it is clear there is a disparity in power. 

There were other rather significant factors that contributed towards Kabuto's performance.  He flat out had a better, perfected version of Sage Mode, had unique body modifications from over half a dozen people and benefited from Sasuke and Itachi not actually trying to kill him (which hinders the Mangekyo moveset that is primarily comprised of one-hit KO moves). 

Jiraiya wouldn't have any of that in a hypothetical BD thread.

Reactions: Like 1


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## drew8324 (Apr 15, 2017)

Charmed said:


> For me it would be like this:
> 
> >>>  >
> 
> Together, they destroy Jiraiya!



You do not watch the series. How do you come with these estimate when Kishimoto portrays things in the EXACT opposite. Like can I get any Hypersonic feats from sauceman? Fuck that, can I get any supersonic feats? Can we even get evidence that he can block Amateratsu?


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> This doesn't have any bearing on battle prowess.


Sure it does, Team battles, Missions, Wars. Not everything is about 1v1.



> Excluding Susanoo, yes. However, Susanoo is still likely to be a game changer. Though, your approach will hold if Itachi uses the Sasuke approach, but Itachi not holding back will use Susanoo to attack.


I don't see Susano'o as something Jiraiya can't deal with. Itachi will likely use Susano'o late-game, which means Jiriaya will be in SM. We've seen SM senses allow the user to evade Susano'o attacks; and DBIV tells us Jiriaya's has SM sensing to the point where he can use Kawazu Kumite, a Taijutsu style based around using SM Sensing to anticipate the enemy's attack and counter it. We've also seen that Sound based Techniques bypass Susano'o's defenses, and Jiraiya has Fusaku and Shima who can use Senjutsu empowered Sound Ninjutsu and Genjutsu. .



> Advantages of SM aside, Jiraiya still needs a way, an easy way, around Susanoo V4 which doesn't involve him needing to use a lot of effort to accomplish for us to concretely say he's above Itachi.


Using V4 Susano'o takes alot out of Itachi. Itachi can't spam Susano'o do to his illness and eyesight issues, and this can be even worse depending on how bad of a day Itachi is having. So I don't see why it's fair to say Jiraiya needs an easy way around it Jiriaya just needs a way around it, which he has. 



> Note that a lot of the higher top tiers have easy ways around Susanoo.


I think you'd need to define High-Tiers, because I don't think anyone short of God Tiers have an "easy" way around V4 Susano'o.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 15, 2017)

Using the words of one of the most well-known liar of the series and taking it as a fact is a fucking joke. Itachi's entire character is about deceiving people close to him. 

But hey, guess what? That one single statement is the only truth he's ever told in the manga. Let's ignore several chapters earlier where Kabuto stated Orochimaru defeated Hiruzen, the "strongest of the kage of the five principles" and Orochimaru stated Itachi was even stronger than himself which automatically makes him > the kage's too by portrayal alone. 

But hey, later on we see Jiraiya and Orochimaru facing each other and that same Orochimaru was talking shit on Jiraiya as if he's trash. Let's all ignore Orochimaru's words and take Itachi's words as the truth instead! 


Bunch of hypocrites.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## drew8324 (Apr 15, 2017)

We can all agree Jiraya is over Sasori
We can all agree Kisame is over Sasori
We can all agree Itachi is over Sasori

All these ninjas are Kage level or have numerous kage level stats unlike Sasori.

Now Kisame has shown great physical strength, amazing chakra, amazing AoE, and decent speed feats. He is a battle warping chakra sucking shark and if you don't see him above damn near everyone in the Akatsuki beside Pain, Obito, Itachi, than you are lost.

Besides the Itachi wank, most of his hyped is lived up too. Itachi is a immensely formidable shinobi and prodigy genius in combat with amazing speed, great tactical skills, hax, genjustu, and OP shuriken justu. He is undoubtedly the strongest Akatsuki member outside of Pain & Obito. (KISAME could do better if he learned ro avoid the genjustu but the shark man will always be the shark man)

Jiraya is a legend. I take into context the Part 1 statement as Itachi trying to avoid unnecessary conflict with Jiraya and also save Jiraya. I do believe Itachi got a bit stronger after the timeskip as his health  deteriorated. Jiraya is an extremely balanced ninja with the highest stat total in the databook and versatility that beats anyone on series, with toad summons, seals, ninjustu elementals along with ninja arts, taijustu, senjustu, reconnaissance skills, and a good tactician overall. While i could say the feats of Itachi and Kisame put them on par and could be above, Jiraya versatility is what comes into play. To think anyone of the duo would lose to Jiraya with anything under a High-low diff is insane. And all those Boss Sumons are really good in a pinch.

Levels
Neg-Diff

Low-low
Low-med
Low-High

Med-low
Med-mid
Med-high

High-low
High-med
High-high

Extreme Diff


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## Sapherosth (Apr 15, 2017)

drew8324 said:


> Jiraya is a legend. I take into context the Part 1 statement as Itachi trying to avoid unnecessary conflict with Jiraya and also save Jiraya. I do believe Itachi got a bit stronger after the timeskip as his health  deteriorated. Jiraya is an extremely balanced ninja with the highest stat total in the databook and versatility that beats anyone on series, with toad summons, seals, ninjustu elementals along with ninja arts, taijustu, senjustu, reconnaissance skills, and a good tactician overall. *While i could say the feats of Itachi and Kisame put them on par *and could be above, Jiraya versatility is what comes into play. To think anyone of the duo would lose to Jiraya with anything under a High-low diff is insane. And all those Boss Sumons are really good in a pinch.





What the hell is this?  

Itachi & Kisame puts them "*on par* with" and "*could* be above" Jiraiya? Now tell me again, Narutoforums, who is the most wanked character?


Let me get this straight, versatility doesn't mean shit. Stop overhyping that. Kakashi has 1,000 jutsu in part 1, he's still trash. Naruto has literally 2 technique, shadow clone and rasengan and he can shit on 99% of the verse. 

Jiraiya being a "good tactician" is absolute trash in comparison to Itachi's feats. They both encountered the same problem with shared vison -> Itachi figured it out in panels while Jiraiya took multiple attempts, an entire chapter and 2 other elder toads to help him figure it out. The disparity between them is just embarrassing. 


Let's just all forget the fact that Itachi dealt with the same shit Jiraiya dealt with, but within 1 chapter? 

Ceberus, bird and Nagato himself within 1 chapter. 

Chameleon, HR, Nagato's arm and save comrade, figured out shared vison within 1 chapter. 

Instantly figured out counter strategies to Nagato's strongest technique and proceeded to stab him and seal him within the same chapter, after which Nagato "apologized" to Itachi right after coming back to his senses

What did Jiraiya do?  He struggled against 3 paths and would have lost without the genjutsu that he didn't even know about prior to that fight. 


Now tell me again how they're comparable?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Charmed (Apr 15, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> What the hell is this?
> 
> Itachi & Kisame puts them "*on par* with" and "*could* be above" Jiraiya? Now tell me again, Narutoforums, who is the most wanked character?
> 
> ...


@drew8324  Actually Jiraiya spent 80% of his time fighting Animal Path, and he was already in SM  :'v

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Charmed (Apr 15, 2017)

drew8324 said:


> You do not watch the series. How do you come with these estimate when Kishimoto portrays things in the EXACT opposite. Like can I get any Hypersonic feats from sauceman? Fuck that, can I get any supersonic feats? Can we even get evidence that he can block Amateratsu?



I'm sorry hun, speed isn't everything and yeah, Jiraiya is still faster than Kisame and far more experienced in battle, so in a fight I'll give Jiraiya the upperhand, though it won't be an easy battle. And yeah, Kisame is not that fast specially when he's not in water, although water maps benefit Jiriaya too.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Tri (Apr 15, 2017)

drew8324 said:


> All these ninjas are Kage level or have numerous kage level stats unlike Sasori.


It's funny how you say this


drew8324 said:


> highest stat total in the databook


And then say this as if Sasori doesn't have one of the highest totals in the databook, not that score totals or individual scores take precedent over feats anyway though. What's up with this hate for the dude anyway, he's literally irrelevant to this conversation.


drew8324 said:


> Now Kisame has shown great physical strength, amazing chakra, amazing AoE, and decent speed feats. He is a battle warping chakra sucking shark and if you don't see him above damn near everyone in the Akatsuki beside Pain, Obito, Itachi, than you are lost.


No, perceiving someone who's best feats came when he had massive advantages below other members isn't exactly ludicrous. Especially when a couple members have superior hype to him.


drew8324 said:


> Besides the Itachi wank, most of his hyped is lived up too. Itachi is a immensely formidable shinobi and prodigy genius in combat with amazing speed, great tactical skills, hax, genjustu, and OP shuriken justu. He is undoubtedly the strongest Akatsuki member outside of Pain & Obito. (*KISAME could do better if he learned ro avoid the genjustu but the shark man will always be the shark man*)


Itachi does not require Genjutsu to defeat Kisame. 


drew8324 said:


> Jiraya is a legend. I take into context the Part 1 statement as Itachi trying to avoid unnecessary conflict with Jiraya and also save Jiraya. I do believe Itachi got a bit stronger after the timeskip as his health deteriorated. Jiraya is an extremely balanced ninja with the highest stat total in the databook and versatility that beats anyone on series, with toad summons, seals, ninjustu elementals along with ninja arts, taijustu, senjustu, reconnaissance skills, and a good tactician overall. While i could say the feats of Itachi and Kisame put them on par and could be above, *Jiraya versatility is what comes into play.* To think anyone of the duo would lose to Jiraya with anything under a High-low diff is insane. And all those Boss Sumons are really good in a pinch.


I can't tell what you're trying to convey here but if it's Jiraiya is superior to Itachi and Kisame due to "versatility" that doesn't really make sense. Itachi himself is quite versatile and if your point here is that Jiraiya can beat the duo due to versatility I don't really know what to say

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 15, 2017)

Charmed said:


> far more experienced in battle,




Please do tell me what this is based on. Kisame is only a little younger than Jiraiya, presumably about 15 years and he spent his entire life fighting, while Jiraiya spent his life wandering, banging hoes and training students. Kisame is more battle experienced than Jiraiya.



Trizalgia said:


> Itachi does not require Genjutsu to defeat Kisame.




Heh.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Serene Grace (Apr 15, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Instantly figured out counter strategies to Nagato's strongest technique and proceeded to stab him and seal him within the same chapter, after which Nagato "apologized" to Itachi right after coming back to his senses


Itachi had one perfect Jin and a nigh perfect jin helping himhe didn't beat Nagato himself if that's what you're inplying. Yes he figured out CT's mechanics but that woulnt have meant jack if Naruto and Bee weren't there

You also didn't argue about Kisame, as you know there isn't a legit thing that puts him above Jiraiya you're smart for that


Sapherosth said:


> What did Jiraiya do? He struggled against 3 paths and would have lost without the genjutsu that he didn't even know about prior to that fight.


"Struggled" lol yet didn't come out with some much as a scratch.  At least try not to fail.

#failedwankanddownplayattmept


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## Charmed (Apr 15, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Please do tell me what this is based on. Kisame is only a little younger than Jiraiya, presumably about 15 years and he spent his entire life fighting, while Jiraiya spent his life wandering, banging hoes and training students. Kisame is more battle experienced than Jiraiya.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Unless I'm wrong, Kisame is 33, when Jiraiya is 55 y/o. So Jiriaya is 22 years older.
Well Jiraiya was already a great Jonin and was acknowledged  by Hanzo as a great Shinobi, Jiraiya was 30 y/o at the time, while Kisame was
30-22 = 8 years old.

Jiriaya has been in 2 Great Ninja wars, and has been in hundreds of Missions, while Kisame has not, so Jiraiya's Hype is way better anyway.

Anyhow, in a fight, I can see Jiraiya having a tough fight against Kisame considering the sharks abilities. I don't now what's the drama it's not like I'm saying Jiraiya is stomping Kisame

And sorry hun, banging girls will only take away a few hours from his training.
Keep trying though..



By the way, I think you missed a dislike, here I give it back to you I dont need it n.n.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 15, 2017)

Yoko said:


> IMO, Kabuto's feats can only force people to reevaluate if we generalize Jiraiya and Kabuto them under the blanket term "Sage Mode", which unintentionally "equalizes" them by putting them in the same category almost the same way people throw around the term "Sannin" as if it is a defined level when it is clear there is a disparity in power.
> 
> There were other rather significant factors that contributed towards Kabuto's performance.  He flat out had a better, perfected version of Sage Mode, had unique body modifications from over half a dozen people and benefited from Sasuke and Itachi not actually trying to kill him (which hinders the Mangekyo moveset that is primarily comprised of one-hit KO moves).
> 
> Jiraiya wouldn't have any of that in a hypothetical BD thread.


Yeah, I used Kabuto as an example but you could throw Hashirama in there too, it wasn't until we saw more of senjutsu that I felt like people were able to say "Oh ok, so Jiraiya was just in a really poor match-up and he was actually much stronger than what he'd shown" - what I think got people underrating him was that he himself stated he couldn't maintain by himself he needed assistance. I don't want to sound like I'm taking anything away from Hashi/Kabuto because I'm not, I just felt like Naruto was a poor choice for the appearance of a second sage as despite his performance against Pain, I still didn't view him stronger than Jiraiya and I really couldn't so it sort of downplayed the its importance for the large part of the remainder of Part 2 I feel until Kabuto and Hashirama took to the field.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Troyse22 (Apr 15, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Unless I'm wrong, Kisame is 33, when Jiraiya is 55 y/o. So Jiriaya is 22 years older.



Fair enough, Kisame is about 32 but I don't know why I assumed Jiraiya was in his mid-late fourties 



Charmed said:


> Jiriaya has been in 2 Great Ninja wars, and has been in hundreds of Missions, while Kisame has not, so Jiraiya's Hype is way better anyway.



Not true, in these wars he has never canonically fought any Kage level opponents besides Hanzo, whereas Kisame made a living off of hunting and battling Kage level Shinobi on the regular. Defeating fodders does not mean you can defeat powerful opponents, no matter how many fodders you kill.



Charmed said:


> Anyhow, in a fight, I can see Jiraiya having a tough fight against Kisame considering the sharks abilities. I don't now what's the drama it's not like I'm saying Jiraiya is stomping Kisame



Jiraiya doesn't beat Kisame regardless, and it's not even a close battle.



Charmed said:


> And sorry hun, banging girls will only take away a few hours from his training.
> Keep trying though..



It was more or less of a joke "banging hoes"


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## Charmed (Apr 15, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Fair enough, Kisame is about 32 but I don't know why I assumed Jiraiya was in his mid-late fourties
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nop the Sannin are 55 y/o though Tsunade looked younger :'v

"Not true, in these wars he has never canonically fought any Kage level opponents besides Hanzo, whereas Kisame made a living off of hunting and battling Kage level Shinobi on the regular. Defeating fodders does not mean you can defeat powerful opponents, no matter how many fodders you kill."

You mean defeating 1 Jinchuuriki? I'm sorry I don't remember him defeating anybody other than Roshi...
Who else did he defeat? I'm sorry I really don't remember, did they even mention he battled somone strong in the past?


I really believe killing an army of foddors is still a nice feat though, like for example Minato, Tobirama, Sandaime Raikage, Sasori of the red Sand, (the Sannin too I think?) they all killing thousands of Shinobi, I mean, even if it's just an army of Chunin level or combined Jounin + Chunin is still great, so many jutsu and K.G to face at the same time that's a lot of battle experience.

Well I think Jiraiya beats Kisame in a high diff  battle being fair to both characters, you saying that Kisame low diffs Jiraiya is just ...


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## Troyse22 (Apr 15, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Who else did he defeat? I'm sorry I really don't remember, did they even mention he battled somone strong in the past?



Fuguki suikazan, the previous wielder of Samehada.

He also defeated Killer Bee, a man who's a solid high kage level Shinobi



Charmed said:


> I really believe killing an army of foddors is still a nice feat though, like for example Minato, Tobirama, Sandaime Raikage, Sasori of the red Sand, (the Sannin too I think?) they all killing thousands of Shinobi, I mean, even if it's just an army of Chunin level or combined Jounin + Chunin is still great, so many jutsu and K.G to face at the same time that's a lot of battle experience.



It doesn't matter, defeating fodders is nothing impressive. BoS Sasuke was doing that as well  and we saw what happened when he took on a high kage level Shinobi (Itachi), Itachi could've bitch slapped the kid at any time.



Charmed said:


> Well I think Jiraiya beats Kisame in a high diff battle being fir to both characters, you saying that Kisame low diffs Jiraiya is just ...



And you're wrong.

Defeating V2 Killer Bee>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Killing fodders.

Kisame trashes Jiraiya, The Sannin are nothing but a bunch of wannabe's, a trio of kids who are sitting at the grown ups table.


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## Charmed (Apr 15, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Fuguki suikazan, the previous wielder of Samehada.
> 
> He also defeated Killer Bee, a man who's a solid high kage level Shinobi
> 
> ...



Meh, that Fubuki is nothing compared to other Shinobi.
He didn't really defeated Bee at his best iirc Bee couldn't go FULL POWER couse he was trying to protect the Racoon and the guy (can't remember his name), he didn't transform completly in Gyuki and he never used BD couse it could damage his friends.

Defeating Foddors that Orochimaru bring is not that great, defeating thousands of foddors in a war is completly different because the villages send all of their best Shinobi, for example, Konoha sending the Sannin, Suna sending Chiyo and Pakura, and Sasori, Kumogakure sending Bee etc... 

Yeah Itachi could've killed that Sasuke.

The Sannin are still Kage level either you like or not, I mean, I hate Oro but that doesn't mean he ain't Kage level.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 16, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Meh, that Fubuki is nothing compared to other Shinobi.



He's way stronger than fodder the fuck you mean.

Or did you forget about him battling with Might Dai in the 8th gate?



Charmed said:


> He didn't really defeated Bee at his best iirc Bee couldn't go FULL POWER couse he was trying to protect the Racoon and the guy (can't remember his name), he didn't transform completly in Gyuki and he never used BD couse it could damage his friends.



Kisame was restricted as well, getting sick of you and HandfullofIzaya forgetting that.

Regardless, if Bee went BM, Kisame would have responded with 1000 feeding sharks, if he used Bijuudama, he would have responded with Daikodan. Unrestricted Bee vs Unrestricted Kisame goes the same, Bee loses.



Charmed said:


> Defeating Foddors that Orochimaru bring is not that great, defeating thousands of foddors in a war is completly different because the villages send all of their best Shinobi, for example, Konoha sending the Sannin, Suna sending Chiyo and Pakura, and Sasori, Kumogakure sending Bee etc...



And Chiyo was never defeated by the Sannin regardless 

Any time they've fought a kage level Shinobi, they've gotten dick punched/cunt punted or stalemated. Old Hiruzen is the only exception.



Charmed said:


> The Sannin are still Kage level either you like or not,



I've never denied this, go ahead, look through my post history and try to find something of me claiming otherwise.

Orochimaru-Mid Kage
Jiraiya-Bottom of mid Kage
Tsunade-Bottom of mid kage, just under Jiraiya, possibly the top of low kage

Tsunade-Cockrides Katsuyu, she's trash outside of her OP summon
Jiraiya-Only relevant in his SM, even then he's still bottom of mid kage, low kage in base
Orochimaru-The only Sannin that doesn't get vigorously wanked in the NBD besides Izaya and HoN. Arguably one of the most fairly rated Sannin in the NBD, unlike Jiraiya who gets wanked to levels way beyond his capability.

Sorry, but realistically when we start comparing the Sannin to people like Minato, Tobirama, Kisame, Itachi, Hanzo, Pein, Nagato, Obito etc, the difference is astonishingly huge, the Sannin are nothing when we throw them in with top tier Shinobi. The Sannin are washed up has-beens who weren't anything above mid kage to start with.


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## Charmed (Apr 16, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> He's way stronger than fodder the fuck you mean.
> 
> Or did you forget about him battling with Might Dai in the 8th gate?
> 
> ...



Yeah, couse I remember the Sannin back then still didn't have their best jutsu, like, Byakugou, SM, or Edo Tensei, and as I said, decades have passed since those events, I belive they're pretty strong actually, but not that strong as S-Rank Shinobi.

Well yeah 100% Orochimaru almost got killed by Old Hiruzen. Then he was getting stomped by Naruto 4 tails, couse he was sick and couldn't use ninjutsu with his hands.
Tsunade only had this fight against sick Orochimaru, and against Madara, but I can understand her loosing, not even the 5 Kage could defeat him.
Jiriaya was fighting Pain, which is a character way too powerful for him to take down alone.

So they were all just facing enemies in a whole different level, it's unfair.

Kisame has been fighting opponents on his same level, Roshi and Bee, all of them are Jinchuuriki, and Kishimoto made it pretty clear that the Akatsuki are guys suited to capture jinchuuriki and Biju with little to no effort at all.
But I still think that the Sannin are just around that level, but not that far away to say Kisame low diffs any of them..


Oh and that Fubuki guy, didn't fight Dai in 8 tails, Fubuki is kinda featless, so most I can say is he getting blitzed so hard by 8 gates.
And how is featelss Daikodan absorbing a BD :'v


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## Troyse22 (Apr 16, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Yeah, couse I remember the Sannin back then still didn't have their best jutsu, like, Byakugou, SM, or Edo Tensei, and as I said, decades have passed since those events, I belive they're pretty strong actually, but not that strong as S-Rank Shinobi.



SM wasn't a concept at those times, but Jiraiya's perceived power level never changed with the introduction of SM (the inferiority to Orochimaru remained a constant)

Tsunade has Katsuyu which means she had Byakugo.

Oro not having ET is the only accurate statement you made in that rant.



Charmed said:


> Well yeah 100% Orochimaru almost got killed by Old Hiruzen.



Okay?



Charmed said:


> Then he was getting stomped by Naruto 4 tails, couse he was sick and couldn't use ninjutsu with his hands.



"Stomped"

I think most would agree KN4 Naruto is the bottom of low Kage level, and Oro had his hands full dealing with him...



Charmed said:


> Tsunade only had this fight against sick Orochimaru, and against Madara, but I can understand her loosing, not even the 5 Kage could defeat him.



Okay?



Charmed said:


> Jiriaya was fighting Pain, which is a character way too powerful for him to take down alone.



I agree.



Charmed said:


> So they were all just facing enemies in a whole different level, it's unfair.



I agree, but the thing is, Kisame is at and above those levels.



Charmed said:


> isame has been fighting opponents on his same level, Roshi and Bee, all of them are Jinchuuriki, and Kishimoto made it pretty clear that the Akatsuki are guys suited to capture jinchuuriki and Biju with little to no effort at all.



Bee is closer to Kisame than Roshi is, the only reason Roshi gave Kisame a presumably harder time was due to Yoton, which Samehada hates to absorb/"eat"



Charmed said:


> But I still think that the Sannin are just around that level, but not that far away to say Kisame low diffs any of them..



Are you conceding that Kisame can beat the Sannin, at least individually?



Charmed said:


> Oh and that Fubuki guy, didn't fight Dai in 8 tails, Fubuki is kinda featless, so most I can say is he getting blitzed so hard by 8 gates.



It's Fuguki, idk why you keep saying Fubuki.

It was Fuguki's generation that battled Gate of Death Might Dai, Fuguki battled an 8 Gates user and lived, in fact, in Canon he was the ONLY one of the Swordsman to live. I'm guilty of underrating Fuguki in the past myself, but after realizing how impressive that is, my opinion changed.


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## Charmed (Apr 16, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> SM wasn't a concept at those times, but Jiraiya's perceived power level never changed with the introduction of SM (the inferiority to Orochimaru remained a constant)
> 
> Tsunade has Katsuyu which means she had Byakugo.
> 
> ...



Oh but Fuguki survived with other 2 sworsmen, but we never knew anything about that fight, I mean, it's possible that Dai actually just blitzed 4 of them and the other 3 just retreated, Dai died anyway because of the 8 door gate.
It doesn't state Fubuki actually had a fight of epic proportions with Dai. 

Nop, I'm saying that Kisame is not killing Jiraiya, because they are for me around the same level, and yeah it's not an easy fight.
I can see Kisame defeating Tsunade and sick Orochimaru though, and still, these aren't easy fights for him either.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 16, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Oh but Fuguki survived with other 2 sworsmen, but we never knew anything about that fight, I mean, it's possible that Dai actually just blitzed 4 of them and the other 3 just retreated, Dai died anyway because of the 8 door gate.
> It doesn't state Fubuki actually had a fight of epic proportions with Dai.




Escape is not an option vs an 8 gates user. They're way too fast to run from.


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## Yoko (Apr 16, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, I used Kabuto as an example but you could throw Hashirama in there too



But Hashirama is an even more distant example than Kabuto if we're trying to compare him to Jiraiya - he is a transmigrant and even before Sage Mode, he already had DBZ-tier powers.  All Sage Mode did was boost an already demi-god tier character to even higher.  It wasn't what put him on that level in the first place, though.



> It wasn't until we saw more of senjutsu that I felt like people were able to say "Oh ok, so Jiraiya was just in a really poor match-up and he was actually much stronger than what he'd shown" - what I think got people underrating him was that he himself stated he couldn't maintain by himself he needed assistance.



It's more than just that, though - it takes him a longer time to reach Sage Mode than any other Sage Mode user, and he does not have the luxury to cripple himself offensively and defensively in most match-ups.  He only managed to enter it thanks to an Animal Realm that for some reason decided to unsummon Cerberus (his best summon).  Against most competent people out to kill him, entering it will be difficult.

Additionally, his breed of Sage Mode simply isn't as good as theirs and even his "base" isn't as good as theirs.  The guy has an imperfect Sage Mode and doesn't have Kabuto's body enhancements & Hashirama's transmigrant power-level pre Sage Mode.

I feel like we're comparing apples and oranges here.  Yes, they both share the fact that they're fruit (aka Sage Mode), but they're not the same thing.  Would you compare Pain or pre Juubi Obito to EoS Sasuke, Kaguya, 3-eye Madara, or Sage of Six Paths just because they have the Rinnegan in common?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 16, 2017)

Turrin said:


> Sure it does, Team battles, Missions, Wars. Not everything is about 1v1.



If we're discussing Itachi vs Jiraiya, specifically then I am right in saying the other information is just noise which detracts from the meat of the notion.



> I don't see Susano'o as something Jiraiya can't deal with. Itachi will likely use Susano'o late-game, which means Jiriaya will be in SM. We've seen SM senses allow the user to evade Susano'o attacks; and DBIV tells us Jiriaya's has SM sensing to the point where he can use Kawazu Kumite, a Taijutsu style based around using SM Sensing to anticipate the enemy's attack and counter it. We've also seen that Sound based Techniques bypass Susano'o's defenses, and Jiraiya has Fusaku and Shima who can use Senjutsu empowered Sound Ninjutsu and Genjutsu. .



I didn't say Jiraiya cannot deal with it, I said he doesn't have an easy means to deal with it. 

Susanoo doesn't need to be used late game, a partial variant can be used at any point, literally any point. Why do you think he wouldn't against Jiraiya who'll can pressure Itachi to use even the lower variants?

I'm going to assert that you've taken the databook 4's entry completely wrong. What's Kawazu Kamite? It isn't the Taijutsu at all, not at all. Read the databook you cited, it pretty much says that Kawazu Kamite is the whole shebang: sensing, Taijutsu and so on... basically anything Naruto/Jiraiya use in SM. 
However, a few things to note: Jiraiya is not a perfect Sage. He can't even use the Taijutsu style the way Naruto can, if he could, then he would not have hidden in the pipes and then made an elaborate strategy to blind each Pain... he would've done what Naruto did. The fact he didn't do what Naruto did to counter shared vision is proof enough he lacks that level of ghost punching.

Second, if his natural energy control isn't good enough to start ghost punching, I'm going to assume that even though Jiraiya's perceptions will improve, I'm going to say that his senses will be duller than Kabuto and Naruto's who have perfected Sage Mode. Fukasaku wouldn't have said Naruto surpassed Jiraiya as a Sage when Naruto first entered SM in Myoubokuzan.

I believe he'll be able to react to Itachi's Susanoo... but not as easily as Naruto/Kabuto would be your teeth. 

I agree with the Toad Song, but you still need to remember the practicality of it. It isn't easy to set up.



> Using V4 Susano'o takes alot out of Itachi. Itachi can't spam Susano'o do to his illness and eyesight issues, and this can be even worse depending on how bad of a day Itachi is having. So I don't see why it's fair to say Jiraiya needs an easy way around it Jiriaya just needs a way around it, which he has.



It does, but sick Itachi got the brunt of it because he used the MS 4 times prior to using V4 Susanoo. If he did it from the get go, it wouldn't be as hard on him. Especially if he's healthy. 



> I think you'd need to define High-Tiers, because I don't think anyone short of God Tiers have an "easy" way around V4 Susano'o.



Anyone whose like Pain Rikudou or Obito who are either very, very high tier or have crazy abilities.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If we're discussing Itachi vs Jiraiya, specifically then I am right in saying the other information is just noise which detracts from the meat of the notion.


I said Jiraiya >= Itachi. I don't think whose superior is completely determined by which character would win a 1v1 match against one another. 



> Susanoo doesn't need to be used late game, a partial variant can be used at any point, literally any point. Why do you think he wouldn't against Jiraiya who'll can pressure Itachi to use even the lower variants?


Susano'o is Itachi's triumph card, what's more it has an extremely steep cost to use, effecting his eyesight, health, lifespan, and chakra negatively. So Itachi isn't likely to use it until late game. Supported by the fact that living Itachi only used Susano'o late-game. Edo Itachi is a different story as he had the advantages of Edo perks, making the draw backs of using Susano'o a-lot less steep or non existent. 



> I'm going to assert that you've taken the databook 4's entry completely wrong. What's Kawazu Kamite? It isn't the Taijutsu at all, not at all. Read the databook you cited, it pretty much says that Kawazu Kamite is the whole shebang: sensing, Taijutsu and so on... basically anything Naruto/Jiraiya use in SM.


Munboy, I'm literally the one who translated DBIV's Kawazu Kumite entry for the forum, so telling me to read it is lolz worthy. And no that's no Kawazu Kumite's entry doesn't say it's anything Jiriaya or Naruto use in SM. Kawazu Kumite is a clearly defined style based around the practitioner using SM Sensing to anticipate the enemy's attack and timing a counter offensive around that; as well as being able to release natural energy to do Ghost Punches. This means anyone listed as a Kawazu Kumite user has to have SM Sensing to the point of being able to anticipate the enemy's attacks like we saw with Naruto vs Sandaime-Raikage.



> However, a few things to note: Jiraiya is not a perfect Sage. He can't even use the Taijutsu style the way Naruto can
> Second, if his natural energy control isn't good enough to start ghost punching, I'm going to assume that even though Jiraiya's perceptions will improve, I'm going to say that his senses will be duller than Kabuto and Naruto's who have perfected Sage Mode. Fukasaku wouldn't have said Naruto surpassed Jiraiya as a Sage when Naruto first entered SM in Myoubokuzan.


There is absolutely no evidence present in the manga that being a perfect Sage is relevant to this at all. I challenge you to find anything that states otherwise. This was an assumption of the Naruto fandom, and assumption clearly proved wrong.



> , if he could, then he would not have hidden in the pipes and then made an elaborate strategy to blind each Pain... he would've done what Naruto did. The fact he didn't do what Naruto did to counter shared vision is proof enough he lacks that level of ghost punchin


I would argue Jiraiya did attempt Kawazu Kumite, but was simply shafted by plot. 

After Ninjutsu Fails, Jiraiya drops a smoke bomb and attempts to hit Human Path from behind with Taijutsu. At this point Jiraiya was likely using SM Sensing to accurately navigate the Smoke Screen and deliver a precise attack. However this fails because Human-Realm blocked the Punch. And that's also where I'd say plot was preventing Kawazu Kumite from working. Why? Several reasons:

1. The Pain Realms are magically able to see through the Smoke Screen, despite it very clearly being shown in the Naruto battle that they can't see through Smoke Screens

2. Nagato chooses to block the attack rather then evade, thus preventing Ghost Punches from even coming into play.

3. Human Realm is somehow magically able to one hand open palm casually block SM-Jiraiya's Punch, despite the titanic physical strength of SM users where even Fusaku can deadlift a ridiculously heavy sold stone statue with a single arm.

Realistically speaking Pain shouldn't have been able to see accurately enough in the smoke screen to block SM-Jiriaya's punch in time, and Human Realm should have gotten wrecked. If Human Realm was somehow magically able to react, then he should have evaded knowing he couldn't block a SM users strike after watching Jiraiya wreck his bull summon, and should have gotten Ghost Punched. If he did choose to block like he did instead, he should have had his arm blown of his body and then proceed to get wrecked by successive strikes from SM-Jiraiya.

My point being that Kawazu Kumite was never going to work there, because the plot willed it to not work, not because Jiraiya couldn't use it.



> I agree with the Toad Song, but you still need to remember the practicality of it. It isn't easy to set up.


And Susano'o V4 isn't that easy for Itachi to use ether, both Jiriaya's and Itachi's Triumph are difficult for them to use in different ways. The question is could Jiriaya last long enough against Susano'o to use Frog-Song, and I think he can, but I also don't think he always will, it would largely depend on the flow of the battle, plot, and battlefield. 



> It does, but sick Itachi got the brunt of it because he used the MS 4 times prior to using V4 Susanoo. If he did it from the get go, it wouldn't be as hard on him. Especially if he's healthy.


Itachi's not likely going to do it from the get go for reasons I already addressed. 



> Anyone whose like Pain Rikudou or Obito who are either very, very high tier or have crazy abilities.


I don't see how Pain would easily counter V4 Susano'o. 

Pain could do it with Chibaku Tensei, CT, or GM, but I don't consider any of those options easy.  His other options would be to use HG Realm to absorb it, but to position HG Realm correctly, while Itachi can also use other Jutsu or Taijutsu to combat that would also prove difficult.

Obito can phase through it easily to defend against it, but I don't think he can overcome it's defenses easily to get at Itachi.

Pretty much anyone short of God-Tier has a tough time with V4 Susano'o imo

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 16, 2017)

Yoko said:


> But Hashirama is an even more distant example than Kabuto if we're trying to compare him to Jiraiya - he is a transmigrant and even before Sage Mode, he already had DBZ-tier powers.  All Sage Mode did was boost an already demi-god tier character to even higher.  It wasn't what put him on that level in the first place, though.
> 
> It's more than just that, though - it takes him a longer time to reach Sage Mode than any other Sage Mode user, and he does not have the luxury to cripple himself offensively and defensively in most match-ups.  He only managed to enter it thanks to an Animal Realm that for some reason decided to unsummon Cerberus (his best summon).  Against most competent people out to kill him, entering it will be difficult.
> 
> ...


Honestly, all I was trying to establish is that our peers here truly looked down upon senjutsu prior to those (Hashirama/Kabuto) guys showing they had senjutsu; I don't think it was til that then that members here started reevaluating Jiraiya's strength. Because as imperfect as it was, I felt he did get snubbed a little in his fight against Pain, especially seeing as a Pain Arc Naruto (who I don't consider to be on the same level as Jiraiya) was able to defeat him. I'm speaking more about perception not so much who is stronger or what not.

I agree with you on all points that Kabuto + Hashirama are leaps and bounds above Jiraiya whether he's in Base or SM as far as I'm concerned that shouldn't even be a discussion.


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## Charmed (Apr 16, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Escape is not an option vs an 8 gates user. They're way too fast to run from.



Not run, while Dai kills 4 of them, the other just go with a "PUFF" it's like a smoke ball or something, remember when Hidan and Kakuzu said they need to go seal the 3 Tails and then they disappeard instantly.

(Sorry it's in spanish, but you can see it's canon)

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sapherosth (Apr 16, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Itachi had one perfect Jin and a nigh perfect jin helping himhe didn't beat Nagato himself if that's what you're inplying. Yes he figured out CT's mechanics but that woulnt have meant jack if Naruto and Bee weren't there





Awww, that's nice. 

What about the first time Itachi soloed Nagato, Ceberus and the bird within 2 panels?  Naruto and Bee certainly wasn't helping him.

What about when Itachi cut off Nagato's vision and took his arm off whilst saving Naruto and Bee?  Naruto and Bee weren't helping him then either. 


Kishi wouldn't make Itachi destroy Nagato TWICE within 2 chapters and seal him in the next if he doesn't think Itachi can compare to Nagato. 



> You also didn't argue about Kisame, as you know there isn't a legit thing that puts him above Jiraiya you're smart for that
> 
> "Struggled" lol yet didn't come out with some much as a scratch.  At least try not to fail.




Kisame is irrelevant in the conversation because Jiraiya isn't even going to defeat Itachi in the first place.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 16, 2017)

Troyse22 said:
			
		

> V2 is by definition Bijuu power trapped in humanoid form. Realistically, *V2 Perfect Jins>BM Jins in physical strength as it's more power per square meter. V2 is a seriously powerful mode that rivals BM*, you're underestimating it.


This is the worst thing I've read here yet, and most of this thread has been conjecture.

Surely Jiraiya is on the level of Itachi, in fact I think he beats him more times than not if he starts in SM or with Ma/Pa summoned initially, but both are a little stronger than Kisame.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 16, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> This is the worst thing I've read here yet,



Go ahead DVW, argue against the manga, make my day


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 16, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Go ahead DVW, argue against the manga, make my day


Oh god, he quoted the fodder.

What's stronger and faster Troyse, KN6 (V2) Naruto, or BM Naruto? Now remember to reference features to substantiate.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 16, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> Oh god, he quoted the fodder.
> 
> What's stronger and faster Troyse, KN6 (V2) Naruto, or BM Naruto?



Toon deva


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 16, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Toon deva


I rest my case.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 16, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> I rest my case.



Shut the fuck up and take a joke.



DaVizWiz said:


> What's stronger and faster Troyse, KN6 (V2) Naruto, or BM Naruto?



KN6 is not= V2 so the point is irrelevant.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 16, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Shut the fuck up and take a joke.
> 
> 
> 
> KN6 is not= V2 so the point is irrelevant.


Yes it is.

KN6 is the same exact V2 as the one Killer Bee displayed above, only considerably stronger, it's a mini version of his bijuu with a  structure on the body. You could argue KN4 is the Kyuubi's V2 version, and anything above is merely partial variations of bijuu mode, as KN4 Naruto looks identical to all of the V2 Jinchuiriki in the war.

Also if you disrespect me like another time I'll be forced to put you on IL and you won't get a reply from me again.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 16, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> KN6 is the same exact V2 as the one Killer Bee displayed above, only considerably stronger, it's a mini version of his bijuu with a bone structure on the body. You could argue KN4 is the Kyuubi's V2 version, and anything above is merely partial variations of bijuu mode, as KN4 Naruto looks identical to all of the V2 Jinchuiriki in the war.



Doesn't matter, based on feats KN4 and KN6 are considerably weaker and slower than full blown V2.



DaVizWiz said:


> If you disrespect me like another time I will put you on IL and you'll never get a reply from me again





Are you under the impression I give a single, solitary shit

Put me on IL or get the stick out of your ass, take your pick


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 16, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Doesn't matter, based on feats KN4 and KN6 are considerably weaker and slower than full blown V2.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I wish I could say it was nice knowing you, good luck Troy. 

Listed.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 16, 2017)

Turrin said:


> I said Jiraiya >= Itachi. I don't think whose superior is completely determined by which character would win a 1v1 match against one another.



In this context, in this section, that's what's relevant. Out of curiosity, would you say in battle the 1v1 scenario, does your Jiraiya>=Itachi constant hold?



> Susano'o is Itachi's triumph card, what's more it has an extremely steep cost to use, effecting his eyesight, health, lifespan, and chakra negatively. So Itachi isn't likely to use it until late game. Supported by the fact that living Itachi only used Susano'o late-game. Edo Itachi is a different story as he had the advantages of Edo perks, making the draw backs of using Susano'o a-lot less steep or non existent.




V4 Susanoo is, but Susanoo is a flexible jutsu- lower variants can be used if needed. I honestly doubt using a simple rib cage has the same "steep cost" as using the fully armoured thing. I doubt it will affect eyesight that badly in one battle... do you recall the health of Itachi and how much Sasuke abused it in a single day for that to happen?
Honest question: if, in your model, Itachi can use lower variants of Susanoo like Sasuke/Madara do... what does that mean for Jiraiya?



> Munboy, I'm literally the one who translated DBIV's Kawazu Kumite entry for the forum, so telling me to read it is lolz worthy. And no that's no Kawazu Kumite's entry doesn't say it's anything Jiriaya or Naruto use in SM. Kawazu Kumite is a clearly defined style based around the practitioner using SM Sensing to anticipate the enemy's attack and timing a counter offensive around that; as well as being able to release natural energy to do Ghost Punches. This means anyone listed as a Kawazu Kumite user has to have SM Sensing to the point of being able to anticipate the enemy's attacks like we saw with Naruto vs Sandaime-Raikage.



I know you did and therefore I expected you to recall that it basically says that Kawazu Kamite is the whole shebang, not just the ghost punches. You can have a clearly defined style, but we still need to consider the users' abilities and how much it helps/limits them. 
It doesn't mean Jiraiya can use ghost punches, if he could he would've not run away due to shared vision; ghost punches literally countered shared vision. 
Rasengan has a clear entry and doesn't make reference to other user's abilities but we know that say Minato's clearly was better than Naruto (pre-war), Jiraiya, Kakashi and Konohamaru. Likewise Sage Mode has a clear entry too and doesn't make note of users, yet we know Kabuto/Naruto/Hashirama have a better SM than Jiraiya/Minato.



> There is absolutely no evidence present in the manga that being a perfect Sage is relevant to this at all. I challenge you to find anything that states otherwise. This was an assumption of the Naruto fandom, and assumption clearly proved wrong.



Actually the fact the perfect Sage used ghost punches to literally overcome the situation that overwhelmed the non-perfect Sage is more than enough evidence. The cherries on top were talking about how the non-perfect Sage couldn't balance natural energy perfectly and the fact that a 800 year old sage said that the perfect sage was a better sage because he could control natural energy better. 
The "Naruto fandom" aren't wrong, that's like saying Konohamaru Rasengan = Minato Rasengan because the databook doesn't distinguish between the users' abilities and that's just an assumption of the "Minato fandom" who've been proved wrong.



> I would argue Jiraiya did attempt Kawazu Kumite, but was simply shafted by plot.



I would argue that he simply could not do what Naruto could. Mine has more weight as you've got the heavy emphasis on what a big deal it was that Naruto got a better SM than Jiraiya.



> After Ninjutsu Fails, Jiraiya drops a smoke bomb and attempts to hit Human Path from behind with Taijutsu. At this point Jiraiya was likely using SM Sensing to accurately navigate the Smoke Screen and deliver a precise attack. However this fails because Human-Realm blocked the Punch. And that's also where I'd say plot was preventing Kawazu Kumite from working. Why? Several reasons:
> 
> 1. The Pain Realms are magically able to see through the Smoke Screen, despite it very clearly being shown in the Naruto battle that they can't see through Smoke Screens
> 
> ...



I think you're calling plot to make up for the holes in your model. For instance: 

1. There were bodies outside the smoke looking at Jiraiya whereas against Naruto, they were all caught and they could not pinpoint where Animal Realm was because it was dark where the body was. 

2. If that was the case, Jiraiya would have deliberately aimed to miss like Naruto did, especially after discovering shared vision... he didn't. 

3. Maybe this should be a point where you're forced to admit imperfect Sages don't get the same standard of boosts compared to perfect Sages. That and the moment you cite is a Pain Rikudou feat. Also Fukasaku would count as a perfect Sage.

It really does look like you're using "plot" to plug in the holes in your model. The easier option would be to admit that Jiraiya just didn't get an equal power up to perfect Sages as his Senjutsu balance was imperfect..




> And Susano'o V4 isn't that easy for Itachi to use ether, both Jiriaya's and Itachi's Triumph are difficult for them to use in different ways. The question is could Jiriaya last long enough against Susano'o to use Frog-Song, and I think he can, but I also don't think he always will, it would largely depend on the flow of the battle, plot, and battlefield.



Itachi literally has to will it and V4 Susanoo will manifest, the toad song will need to be prepped. There is no difficulty for Itachi to use it. Especially if it is early on.



> I don't see how Pain would easily counter V4 Susano'o.
> 
> Pain could do it with Chibaku Tensei, CT, or GM, but I don't consider any of those options easy.  His other options would be to use HG Realm to absorb it, but to position HG Realm correctly, while Itachi can also use other Jutsu or Taijutsu to combat that would also prove difficult.
> 
> ...



Absorbing the jutsu is the the easiest thing to pull of. Especially if Tendo uses BT, and we saw via Baku that a less powerful suction can stump Susanoo. That doesn't include what the other Paths could do. 
GM would be an easy option, actually. Just one summoning and the chakra sucking dragon would do the rest. Hardly any effort with both options. 

Obito can literally slip through everything, then grab Itachi and teleport, or just teleport within Susanoo and grab Itachi. Mokuton can help with this phasing if Obito feels like it.

Very top tiers till God tiers have low effort times with it. Jiraiya? He needs to make the effort to get far and prep an illusion while ensuring he stays safe. There's nothing easy there. If the Genjutsu could be prepped very quickly, then Jiraiya would have an easy counter.


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## Mithos (Apr 16, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Jiraiyaflash agreed with your post, now we just gotta get Izaya and Mithos to come in here and agree and you have the whole Sannin circle jerk.



Sannin circle jerk? I'm all in.

I've liked @Turrin's post -- where's my circle at?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In this context, in this section, that's what's relevant.


Says who exactly? There are Tier Ranking Threads, Team Battles, etc... in this section all the time



> Out of curiosity, would you say in battle the 1v1 scenario, does your Jiraiya>=Itachi constant hold?


Depends on the scenario. 



> V4 Susanoo is, but Susanoo is a flexible jutsu- lower variants can be used if needed. I honestly doubt using a simple rib cage has the same "steep cost" as using the fully armoured thing. I doubt it will affect eyesight that badly in one battle... do you recall the health of Itachi and how much Sasuke abused it in a single day for that to happen?
> Honest question: if, in your model, Itachi can use lower variants of Susanoo like Sasuke/Madara do... what does that mean for Jiraiya?


Yet we never saw Itachi use lower variants in any of his battles prior to becoming an Edo other than Late-Game. So as I said I find it OOC to assume Itachi uses Susano'o early on in a match, unless absolutely forced to do so in-order to save his life or the life of another important person to him.



> I know you did and therefore I expected you to recall that it basically says that Kawazu Kamite is the whole shebang, not just the ghost punches. You can have a clearly defined style, but we still need to consider the users' abilities and how much it helps/limits them.


You do realize my translation was just a summary right, not verbatim? You also realize that I'm point blank telling you that entry states that all Kawazu Kumite users can use Ghost Punches and Danger Sensing?



> Rasengan has a clear entry and doesn't make reference to other user's abilities but we know that say Minato's clearly was better than Naruto (pre-war), Jiraiya, Kakashi and Konohamaru. Likewise Sage Mode has a clear entry too and doesn't make note of users, yet we know Kabuto/Naruto/Hashirama have a better SM than Jiraiya/Minato.


Dude your not claiming one is better, your claiming one can't use an entire part of Kawazu Kumite. What your arguing is more like if PI-Naruto was listed as a Rasengan user halfway through his training when all he could do is form swirly chakra in his hand, but couldn't condense it into the actual shape of Rasengan. 



> Actually the fact the perfect Sage used ghost punches to literally overcome the situation that overwhelmed the non-perfect Sage is more than enough evidence. The cherries on top were talking about how the non-perfect Sage couldn't balance natural energy perfectly and the fact that a 800 year old sage said that the perfect sage was a better sage because he could control natural energy better.


Naruto defeated a single realm via Ghost Punches, not 3 Realms. So no it did not allow Naruto to overcome the same situation as Jiraiya. Jiraiya was also able to single out individual paths in Taijutsu, shown when he kicked the shit out of Animal Realm.



> I would argue that he simply could not do what Naruto could. Mine has more weight as you've got the heavy emphasis on what a big deal it was that Naruto got a better SM than Jiraiya.


What it meant for Naruto's SM to be better was explained in the manga, it meant he could balance the energies better, which enabled him to use Clones to complete his SM and later balance out even greater energies when RSM and Bijuu Chaka were in the mix. At no point in the entire manga or any data-books was having a more Perfect-SM tied to any of the claims you are making.



> There were bodies outside the smoke looking at Jiraiya whereas against Naruto, they were all caught and they could not pinpoint where Animal Realm was because it was dark where the body was.


The Pain Bodies were outside the Smoke Screen right here, but they couldn't track Naruto's movements in it:
Minato's Gaiden



> If that was the case, Jiraiya would have deliberately aimed to miss like Naruto did, especially after discovering shared vision... he didn't.


Naruto didn't aim to miss HG-Realm simply evaded him. Why would Jiraiya ever aim to miss, I must imagine a direct hit is still more damaging then a Ghost Punch. And if not then I question why SM-Naruto like only ever used Ghost Punches once.



> 3. Maybe this should be a point where you're forced to admit imperfect Sages don't get the same standard of boosts compared to perfect Sages. That and the moment you cite is a Pain Rikudou feat. Also Fukasaku would count as a perfect Sage.


SM-Jiraiya sent a boss summon flying.



> The easier option would be to admit that Jiraiya just didn't get an equal power up to perfect Sages as his Senjutsu balance was imperfect..


Let me ask you something if Ghost Punches really were the answer to all of Jiraiya's problems against the 3 Paths, why didn't we see Naruto steam roll through at least 2 other Paths using Ghost Punches? Why did he stop after HG-Realm? Should I just randomly assume because he only used Ghost Punches once, that his Sage-Mode had a limit of 1 Ghost Punch per battle, because it's inferior Sage-Mode to Hashirama's or Hagoromo's? 



> Itachi literally has to will it and V4 Susanoo will manifest, the toad song will need to be prepped. There is no difficulty for Itachi to use it. Especially if it is early on.


Yes Susano'o can be pulled out easier, while Frog-Song takes time. However Susano'o has it's own steep drawbacks, that makes it OOC for Itachi to use it early on.



> Absorbing the jutsu is the the easiest thing to pull of. Especially if Tendo uses BT, and we saw via Baku that a less powerful suction can stump Susanoo. That doesn't include what the other Paths could do.
> GM would be an easy option, actually. Just one summoning and the chakra sucking dragon would do the rest. Hardly any effort with both options.


Susano'o held up against Baku's Suction and it was only a V3 Susano'o. Also Baku's Suction > BT's Suction. So I don't see what that proves. And absorbing Susano'o is not easy to pull off, as HG Realm goes to absorb it Itachi can throw Kunai at him or attack him with Taijutsu. It's not that easy when Itachi can perform other actions at the same time as using Susano'o.



> Obito can literally slip through everything, then grab Itachi and teleport, or just teleport within Susanoo and grab Itachi. Mokuton can help with this phasing if Obito feels like it.


And Itachi just stands there letting that happen? 



> Very top tiers till God tiers have low effort times with it. Jiraiya? He needs to make the effort to get far and prep an illusion while ensuring he stays safe. There's nothing easy there. If the Genjutsu could be prepped very quickly, then Jiraiya would have an easy counter.


I don't agree. It's also not like I'm saying Jiraiya is Tiers above Itachi or even a Tier above him. I just consider Jiriaya overall >= to Itachi in most scenarios, where the > represents a very small margin.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 17, 2017)

Turrin said:


> Says who exactly? There are Tier Ranking Threads, Team Battles, etc... in this section all the time



Tier ranking tends to be in the same league as one-on-one.



> Depends on the scenario.



One on one.



> Yet we never saw Itachi use lower variants in any of his battles prior to becoming an Edo other than Late-Game. So as I said I find it OOC to assume Itachi uses Susano'o early on in a match, unless absolutely forced to do so in-order to save his life or the life of another important person to him.



He never actually needed it for those battles, just like Madara didn't until Naruto and Oonoki entered. OOC is not the proper way to deflect this to make the model hold. IC is Itachi is logical, so is he really, really going to neglect using lower variations of Susanoo if it will help?



> You do realize my translation was just a summary right, not verbatim? You also realize that I'm point blank telling you that entry states that all Kawazu Kumite users can use Ghost Punches and Danger Sensing?
> 
> Dude your not claiming one is better, your claiming one can't use an entire part of Kawazu Kumite. What your arguing is more like if PI-Naruto was listed as a Rasengan user halfway through his training when all he could do is form swirly chakra in his hand, but couldn't condense it into the actual shape of Rasengan.



Your summary says Kawazu Kumite grants abilities which include ghost punching and danger sensing, just like Rasengan's implying it is the same for all users.

Kawazu Kamite is an application of natural energy, Jiraiya couldn't use natural energy very well. It isn't a stretch to state he cannot use ghost punches. He'd probably not have died if he could get through shared vision with its natural counter.



> Naruto defeated a single realm via Ghost Punches, not 3 Realms. So no it did not allow Naruto to overcome the same situation as Jiraiya. Jiraiya was also able to single out individual paths in Taijutsu, shown when he kicked the shit out of Animal Realm.



Shared vision was completely nullified as Pain knew there was an attack that he couldn't be hit with. Jiraiya was faced with an opponent with all eyes on him, Jiraiya ran and Naruto hammered through. It was the same scenario: one could overcome shared vision and the other could not. The one who could, could use Kawazu Kamite better.



> What it meant for Naruto's SM to be better was explained in the manga, it meant he could balance the energies better, which enabled him to use Clones to complete his SM and later balance out even greater energies when RSM and Bijuu Chaka were in the mix. At no point in the entire manga or any data-books was having a more Perfect-SM tied to any of the claims you are making.



Balancing the energies better doesn't mean being able to use clones and balance out greater energies. We saw the difference. Naruto completely outclassed Jiraiya in SM, something which Fukasaku confirmed when Naruto entered the mode. If there was no difference, then Fukasaku wouldn't have tried to get Naruto to perfect the mode. Also, the databooks don't say different Rasengan users can use it better... but we know better.



> The Pain Bodies were outside the Smoke Screen right here, but they couldn't track Naruto's movements in it:



Oh, that's the one you were referring to.

Naruto didn't aim to miss HG-Realm simply evaded him. Why would Jiraiya ever aim to miss, I must imagine a direct hit is still more damaging then a Ghost Punch. And if not then I question why SM-Naruto like only ever used Ghost Punches once.


SM-Jiraiya sent a boss summon flying.[/QUOTE]

The moment the smoke screen was up, Naruto did his thing all at once. Don't see how it helps your point... though maybe it says SM Naruto is... faster than SM Jiraiya. 

Naruto clearly said he'll hit Pain with an attack that he can't see... then we got ghost punches. With danger sensing, Naruto could miss with precision. Why would Jiraiya miss? To achieve what Naruto did by hitting them with an attack they cannot see when his direct hits obviously did nothing to Pain when the latter blocks. Looking at how the battle went, shared vision wasn't that much of a factor since with all the bodies, Naruto took out Preta and Asura. Then he shortly got rid of Human and Animal... and Hell went to prioritise bringing back Preta... so for a while it was just Deva. 

With the way the battle went, it didn't seem like there was time. The timely moment was on Preta and there weren't as many opportunities to use it during the rest of the battle. 

SM Naruto stopped a summon and threw it miles in the air whilst carrying on an assault that Pain couldn't guard against. Pain still wasn't broken into pieces when the superior SM Naruto gave him a kick (which he reacted to)... so in your zeal to call plot to plug in the gaps, perhaps you neglect feats of a guy meant to fight SM users.




> Yes Susano'o can be pulled out easier, while Frog-Song takes time. However Susano'o has it's own steep drawbacks, that makes it OOC for Itachi to use it early on.



IC Itachi is logical, and not using Susanoo early on because of a steep cost which only occurs after extreme use in extreme circumstances to ensure a Jiraiya-Itachi model holds isn't very logical. In essence, assuming it is OOC for Itachi to use lower Susanoo variants in-itself is: illogical. Thus OOC.



> Susano'o held up against Baku's Suction and it was only a V3 Susano'o. Also Baku's Suction > BT's Suction. So I don't see what that proves. And absorbing Susano'o is not easy to pull off, as HG Realm goes to absorb it Itachi can throw Kunai at him or attack him with Taijutsu. It's not that easy when Itachi can perform other actions at the same time as using Susano'o.



It wasn't using Magatama nor firing weapons now was it? The suction effectively stopped Susanoo hence Sasuke's other contingency plan. BT is a literal attactive force whereby Deva can alter the power (at full power, Kakashi, Naruto and Fukasaku couldn't do anything to react physically). Unless you'd like to take the approach that it is so powerful that it would quite literally pull Itachi out of PS (going by Gaara, this is possible) which is an even easier counter than initially thought. Itachi will throw kunai at a Path which will have other paths there to easily deflect projectiles? Hardly an effort for Pain. Attack Pain Rikudou with Taijutsu? Jiraiya ran away for a reason, it isn't viable.

Scenario 1: the Baku style suction: Itachi is trapped and has to endure other Paths while Preta absorbs Susanoo.

Scenario 2: pull Itachi out, Itachi will need to wait for Susanoo to dematerialise before it materialises again (as shown by Madara), but in a state wher ehe can't focus or even physicall move will be open to a Path (likely Human, Asura or Animal) ending him.

The proposed counters: projectiles, there are literally other bodies there with support and shared vision. It is the reason Jiraiya relied on Pain's underestimation of himself to try to win the battle. So that fails.

Taijutsu: Jiraiya and Fukasaku literally said this is a suicide move. 

I'd dare say that Pain Rikudou, at max power, would have a much easier time against Itachi than they would against Jiraiya.



> And Itachi just stands there letting that happen?



He literally cannot touch Obito. Even Minato physically couldn't do anything hence he relied on Hiraishin to fight Obito.



> I don't agree. It's also not like I'm saying Jiraiya is Tiers above Itachi or even a Tier above him. I just consider Jiriaya overall >= to Itachi in most scenarios, where the > represents a very small margin.



What I'd like to ask is, because I know this is based on a model where Itachi does not use Susanoo till the end... how does this change if you factor in Itachi using lower variants of Susanoo like Madara/Sasuke do? Does this change?


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 18, 2017)

Trolling said:


> Kurama was able to defeat 5 other bijuu at the same time, with half chakra of the full nine tails.


I read this as "Kisame soloed 5 biju at half chakra"

And we were about to have one hell of a talk...

Good lord my sides

Totally my bad...But still...Holy shit my sides

Reactions: Funny 2


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## drew8324 (Apr 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> What the hell is this?
> 
> Itachi & Kisame puts them "*on par* with" and "*could* be above" Jiraiya? Now tell me again, Narutoforums, who is the most wanked character?
> 
> ...



I was saying this to make the Sannin wankers happy. Itachi has shown feats to be above Jiraya at times i admit, however itachi fought a weaker nagato along with the fact he was edo as well, you cannot viable compare everything they did in their bouts. Nido Jizo and Boss Summons help A LOT and normal itachi chakra pool is subpar for ninja's his tier, however if the Susanoo is pulled out Jman takes an L most likely. I mean Danzo contended to the Susanoo albeit Izanagi but offensively still had a chance, Jman if he could avoid the Tosuke Blade has a chance at a win, however inwould say itachi over him ino, however if its just Bass, it can go either or if Jiraya knows how not to get Genjustu GG.


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## drew8324 (Apr 19, 2017)

Charmed said:


> I'm sorry hun, speed isn't everything and yeah, Jiraiya is still faster than Kisame and far more experienced in battle, so in a fight I'll give Jiraiya the upperhand, though it won't be an easy battle. And yeah, Kisame is not that fast specially when he's not in water, although water maps benefit Jiriaya too.



Speed isn't everything but it is most. While Kisame is definitely far from a speedster he is faster than sauceman and in conjunction has better reaction speeds. Now while kisame could move correspondence to a lowered 7th gate Gai and not at full strength Sauceman would be looking for  Pinocchio dad for a fucking puppet optometrist visit cause they would move to fast for him to register. Water maps help Jiraya in a sense and I do admit he might do fine in there however i believe i did state Jiraya has counters to water dome eg: Boss Summons, Earth Ninjutsu, Oil Ninjustu. I could see Jman winning yes.


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## drew8324 (Apr 19, 2017)

Trizalgia said:


> It's funny how you say this
> 
> And then say this as if Sasori doesn't have one of the highest totals in the databook, not that score totals or individual scores take precedent over feats anyway though. What's up with this hate for the dude anyway, he's literally irrelevant to this conversation.
> 
> ...



No i am sure itachi can gove jiraya one of the best fights of his life if not straight out kill him. I've made that clear in numerous post, however itachi isn't versatile in 'skillset' he is versatile in 'use'. I guess I have to define the difference. When i mean 'skillset' that means vareity of justu one has for various situations, when I elaborate about 'us' its about maneuvering the current situation with the justu you have, improvisation essentially. Now we can ALL agree Itachi has less justu than Jman, so I am saying Jman can approach a scenario in more ways than Itachi, however Itachi use of his skillset is phenomenal. In the filler based of the Itach Hiden I believe he said his fighting style was: Katon, Shurikenjustu, and Genjustu. Now however he uses clone feint subsequentially with katon, genjustu and shuriken justu which all turns this into a morbid fighter.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 19, 2017)

drew8324 said:


> I was saying this to make the Sannin wankers happy. Itachi has shown feats to be above Jiraya at times i admit, however itachi fought a weaker nagato along with the fact he was edo as well, you cannot viable compare everything they did in their bouts. Nido Jizo and Boss Summons help A LOT and normal itachi chakra pool is subpar for ninja's his tier, however if the Susanoo is pulled out Jman takes an L most likely. I mean Danzo contended to the Susanoo albeit Izanagi but offensively still had a chance, Jman if he could avoid the Tosuke Blade has a chance at a win, however inwould say itachi over him ino, however if its just Bass, it can go either or if Jiraya knows how not to get Genjustu GG.





It was explicitly stated that the edo Nagato that Itachi demolished was superior to Pain in all aspects.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> It was explicitly stated that the edo *Nagato that Itachi demolished*


Lol

Yeah that was Itachi and Itachi alone


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## drew8324 (Apr 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> It was explicitly stated that the edo Nagato that Itachi demolished was superior to Pain in all aspects.


Forreal? Well if thats true than I'll recline my statement. It still brings to the fact jiraya fought with lower knowledge and itachi was an edo with limitless chakra. I still think Itachi > Jiraya 8/10 times


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## Sapherosth (Apr 19, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Lol
> 
> Yeah that was Itachi and Itachi alone




That's exactly what he did prior to stabbing Nagato with Tosuka.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> That's exactly what he did prior to stabbing Nagato with Tosuka.


I must have missed the part where the solo king soloed that CT

I thought he had 2 people helping him, both with DC that dwarfed his


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## Sapherosth (Apr 19, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I must have missed the part where the solo king soloed that CT
> 
> I thought he had 2 people helping him, both with DC that dwarfed his




You must've missed the part where Itachi burned Nagato and then chopped his arm off, all within 2 chapters. The Chibaku Tensei could have been countered solo. Itachi simply wasted time by explaining to the others how to stay calm and analyse the opponent.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> You must've missed the part where Itachi burned Nagato and then chopped his arm off


You must have missed the part where nagato was nerfed 3 fold...


He was crippled
He was being controlled by kabuto..Who has no idea how to properly fight with any of his edos abilities...Let alone the goddamn rinnegan
Kabuto also had no idea about nagatos sensory abilities
Itachi also landed that amaterasu because nagato let him...We were through this a few days ago i believe...

Kabuto clearly stopped forcing nagato to defend himself, thats why nagato sat there and cooked for half a chapter despite having 2 techs that could save him in an instant

Kabuto also stopped weaving signs he was shown weaving when he forced itachi and nagato to initially attack them due to his shock over koto

But the second kabuto got over the shock and began weaving signs again nagato defended himself




Sapherosth said:


> The Chibaku Tensei could have been countered solo



No...No it could not

No way in hell can itachi counter CT without a truck load of assistance



Sapherosth said:


> Itachi simply wasted time by explaining to the others how to stay calm and analyse the opponent.


Listen...

We could have given Itachi the entirety of the manga to get himself out of that CTs pull...Literally all 700 chapters and you know what?

He wouldn't get out...Once that pull has him he is screwed

He straight up doesnt have the muscle to break it alone


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## Sapherosth (Apr 19, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> You must have missed the part where nagato was nerfed 3 fold...
> 
> 
> He was crippled





Lmfao, that's like blaming Itachi dying was due to his illness. It's part of his character. 




> He was being controlled by kabuto..Who has no idea how to properly fight with any of his edos abilities...Let alone the goddamn rinnegan



For someone who supposedly doesn't know how to use Nagato, he was doing well OWNING 2 Perfect Jins. I don't see you complaining about that do you? 

Oh Kabuto is so bad.....So bad that he WRECKED TWO PERFECT JINS. I guess that feat isn't legitimate too. Funny how when it's a positive feat for Nagato it's completely fine but when it's negative you blame it on Kabuto. Hypocritical I'd say. 




> Kabuto also had no idea about nagatos sensory abilities



What makes you think Kabuto doesn't know Nagato was a sensor?  

Kabuto THOUGHT that Itachi was a sensor because of Itachi's words. Nothing about Kabuto not knowing Nagato was a sensor at all. 



> Itachi also landed that amaterasu because nagato let him...We were through this a few days ago i believe...



Let him?  Proof?   Where's the proof? You have none. Nagato was on auto-pilot mode at the time just like when he blocked Killer Bee's sword and his body moved on its own.


> Kabuto clearly stopped forcing nagato to defend himself, thats why nagato sat there and cooked for half a chapter despite having 2 techs that could save him in an instant



Stopped Nagato to defend himself?  That's a pathetic excuse. 



> Kabuto also stopped weaving signs he was shown weaving when he forced itachi and nagato to initially attack them due to his shock over koto



Does that mean all the Edo's in other battlefields stopped moving too just because Kabuto stopped "weaving his signs"?    I guess all the edo's must've gone imp when Kabuto was fighting the Uchiha Bro's. 

There's a thing called "auto-pilot" you know....



> But the second kabuto got over the shock and began weaving signs again nagato defended himself



Most likely because Kabuto turned off Nagato's senses thus making him endure Amateratsu's pain and then activated ST. 




> No...No it could not
> 
> No way in hell can itachi counter CT without a truck load of assistance



What's stopping the bare core from being destroyed?  You have NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that the core is durable enough to not be destroyed by a triple yasaka bead. 




> He wouldn't get out...Once that pull has him he is screwed
> 
> He straight up doesnt have the muscle to break it alone



Proof that the core is durable against PIERCING attacks?


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Lmfao, that's like blaming Itachi dying was due to his illness. It's part of his character.


Lmfao the double standard...

Every itachi fan and their mother makes a MASSIVE distinction between healthy and unhealthy itachi and you know it

But its different when it comes to nagato being unable to properly move half of his body...

Didnt think id need to explain why being crippled was a nerf in battle



Sapherosth said:


> For someone who supposedly doesn't know how to use Nagato, he was doing well OWNING 2 Perfect Jins. I don't see you complaining about that do you?


Yes kabuto owned two perfect jins...But the original nagato would have done better and wouldnt have been taken off guard at every turn

As he better knows his own weaknesses and strengths...Oh yeah and he ACTUALLY USES his sensory abilities that detect MS buildup with time to spare...

Nagato also wouldnt have tunnel visioned like kabuto did and totally forgot about itachis existence...He had exactly what tobi wanted in th epalm of his hands and kabuto HIMSELF STATED he could use them against tobi if he captured them...




Sapherosth said:


> What makes you think Kabuto doesn't know Nagato was a sensor?
> 
> Kabuto THOUGHT that Itachi was a sensor because of Itachi's words. Nothing about Kabuto not knowing Nagato was a sensor at all.



Cuz he never fucking once used nagatos sensory abilties after taking him over

And he didnt have a clue how itachi could have found him if itachi wasnt the sensor who detected him

He never even considered nagato as an option despite knowing he and itachi were traveling together for a long time...

Like honestly now...



Sapherosth said:


> Let him? Proof? Where's the proof? You have none.


The fact he got hit at all and gave no indication he was surprised is proof enough...

You dont find it strange how two seconds ago prior to being hit with Ama he could manage a verbal responce to warn others ahead of time but when its focused on nagato himself he is helpless?

Thjat doesnt seem a tad odd to you?

Weve been through this song and dance already




Sapherosth said:


> Stopped Nagato to defend himself? That's a pathetic excuse.


Its better than "amaterasu incapped nagato so he couldnt defend himself for over half a chapter"

Which is something ama has never done before

And why would it be a pathetic excuse when nagato doesnt even wanna fight them?

If kabuto stops forcing him to attack them...Of course he is gonna let them win against him...A shit load of edos actively tell their opponents how to counter their abilities for this very reason




Sapherosth said:


> Most likely because Kabuto turned off Nagato's senses thus making him endure Amateratsu's pain and then activated ST.


What are you getting at with this?



Sapherosth said:


> What's stopping the bare core from being destroyed? You have NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that the core is durable enough to not be destroyed by a triple yasaka bead.


A triple yasaka bead...

When 4 of them have the feat of making craters in a cave wall slightly bigger than a human being...

Is gonna solo CT? Arguably the most powerful rinnegan technique?

Far be it from me to argue...



Sapherosth said:


> Proof that the core is durable against PIERCING attacks?


And pray tell how itachi is gonna reach it with his beloved totsuka blade to pierce it when the core is several hundreds of meters in the sky?


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## Sapherosth (Apr 19, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Lmfao the double standard...
> 
> Every itachi fan and their mother makes a MASSIVE distinction between healthy and unhealthy itachi and you know it
> 
> But its different when it comes to nagato being unable to properly move half of his body...




Oh, do please show me Nagato's "healthy" version or where it was mentioned at all?

What are Nagato's normal footspeed feats? Or his movements ?


Oh that's right...You can't.




> Didnt think id need to explain why being crippled was a nerf in battle



But that's a part of his character. Saying Nagato lost because he's a cripple doesn't change anything because that's him.




> Yes kabuto owned two perfect jins...But the original nagato would have done better and wouldnt have been taken off guard at every turn



Proof that he would have done better?   Last time I checked, alive Nagato was in a wheelchair and couldn't even move by himself but his edo version was chasing down Bee and Naruto.



> As he better knows his own weaknesses and strengths...Oh yeah and he ACTUALLY USES his sensory abilities that detect MS buildup with time to spare...



Jeez, do you even know what sensing is?   Do you actually know how it works?

Show me Nagato using his sensing during combat when he was alive or even when he was an edo?   Nagato "sensing" Amateratsu is absolutely NOTHING SPECIAL when Zetsu felt the exact same thing. Additionally, UNLIKE JUUBITO, Nagato couldn't anticipate or react to Amateratsu hitting him at all.



> Nagato also wouldnt have tunnel visioned like kabuto did and totally forgot about itachis existence...He had exactly what tobi wanted in th epalm of his hands and kabuto HIMSELF STATED he could use them against tobi if he captured them...



Nagato didn't have "tunnel vision" out of choice. He got CUT OFF by Itachi.



> Cuz he never fucking once used nagatos sensory abilties after taking him over



Show me Nagato using sensory abilities during combat and fighting simultaneously?

Hell even KARIN can't do that. Minato also has to turn his chakra into "sensing mode" to do it as well. Nagato's sensing isn't combat orientated like SM or Muu's for that matter, but a support one much like Karin.



> And he didnt have a clue how itachi could have found him if itachi wasnt the sensor who detected him



He didn't know that he could be traced back. Itachi said that "when you were controlling me" which led Kabuto to believe that Itachi was the one who sensed him. It has fuck all to do with Nagato at all.




> He never even considered nagato as an option despite knowing he and itachi were traveling together for a long time...



Only because of Itachi's words. Kabuto even stated that Itachi was trying to fool him.




> The fact he got hit at all and gave no indication he was surprised is proof enough...
> 
> You dont find it strange how two seconds ago prior to being hit with Ama he could manage a verbal responce to warn others ahead of time but when its focused on nagato himself he is helpless?



Because it wasn't even fucking Amateratsu in the first place?




> Thjat doesnt seem a tad odd to you?
> 
> Weve been through this song and dance already



And you're STILL not getting it.




> Its better than "amaterasu incapped nagato so he couldnt defend himself for over half a chapter"
> 
> Which is something ama has never done before
> 
> And why would it be a pathetic excuse when nagato doesnt even wanna fight them?



Wtf does Nagato's will have anything to do with this?   It doesn't mean shit what Nagato wants to do. His body moves on its own ACCORDING TO HIS OWN WORDS.

If it didn't move or react when it is being attacked by Itachi that simply means he COULDN'T.



> If kabuto stops forcing him to attack them...Of course he is gonna let them win against him...A shit load of edos actively tell their opponents how to counter their abilities for this very reason



He's on auto-pilot. Are you reading the manga or what?





> A triple yasaka bead...
> 
> When 4 of them have the feat of making craters in a cave wall slightly bigger than a human being...
> 
> ...



A single bead that has the capability of piercing through Onoki+Gaara's strongest defenses. Madara's Yasaka bead didn't even make a big explosion when it hit it either yet it almost pierced through.

Itachi's triple bead COMBINED is at least stronger than that.

And also, the CT core has ZERO FEATS. It's not soloing shit. Not to mention the fact that Yasaka is SUSANO's strongest long-ranged offense as well.


What you're saying is basically something like this >   Chidori is weak because it's only a palm sized attack. You're failing to grasp its unique properties that makes it special in the first place, that is its PIERCING ABILITIES.



> And pray tell how itachi is gonna reach it with his beloved totsuka blade to pierce it when the core is several hundreds of meters in the sky?



Erm, hello ?   Itachi can just jump right to it using its own gravitational pull?  Do you even know how CT works or how Itachi even countered it the first time?


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## Serene Grace (Apr 20, 2017)

did Saph just ask when has Nagato used his Sensing in a battle/combat situation while fighting as well?  

Or is sensing the build up of an oncoming assault, then doing ST not considered sensing and fighting in a combat situation.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 21, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> did Saph just ask when has Nagato used his Sensing in a battle/combat situation while fighting as well?
> 
> Or is sensing the build up of an oncoming assault, then doing ST not considered sensing and fighting in a combat situation.





And once again you fail to realise that that isn't actually sensing. It's basically him feeling the change in atmosphere that literally ANYONE can feel.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 21, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> And once again you fail to realise that that isn't actually sensing. It's basically him feeling the change in atmosphere that literally ANYONE can feel.




...What the???


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## The_Conqueror (Apr 21, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> And once again you fail to realise that that isn't actually sensing. It's basically him feeling the change in atmosphere that literally *ANYONE* can feel.


So anyone can know when a user is going to use amaterasu then? Its enough time for most ninja to use smoke bombs and shit if they have knowledge


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## Sapherosth (Apr 21, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> ...What the???




It's the same as when Zetsu feel a change in atmosphere when he witnessed Itachi v Sasuke battle. Completely different than when Juubito sensed chakra gathering in Sasuke's eyes.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 21, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> And once again you fail to realise that that isn't actually sensing. It's basically him feeling the change in atmosphere that literally ANYONE can feel.


Wait if its something everyone can do, why was it that only Nagato felt it? SuspiciousKappa

Also were you joking when you tried to compare zetsu's scenario to Nagato's were you actually being serious, or were joking? I hope you were joking, , 

Nagato was clearly sensing it, stop with the baseless excuses and admit when you're wrong.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 21, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Wait if its something everyone can do, why was it that only Nagato felt it? SuspiciousKappa
> 
> Also were you joking when you tried to compare zetsu's scenario to Nagato's were you actually being serious, or were joking? I hope you were joking, ,
> 
> Nagato was clearly sensing it, stop with the baseless excuses and admit when you're wrong.





Hello?  Because Nagato was fucking right next to Itachi?


Naruto and Bee were at least 100 meters away.



Also, Zetsu CLEARLY stated that "The air around Itachi has shifted"...


Hardly any different than Nagato's comment "I feel...."     THE AIR that has shifted. 

Nothing about chakra was mentioned whatsoever unlike Juubito who DIRECTLY stated that about chakra.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 21, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> It's the same as when Zetsu feel a change in atmosphere when he witnessed Itachi v Sasuke battle.



No it isnt

And we've been through this already...What nagato does is in a different league...


WorldsStrongest said:


> Its incredibly different and you know it is...Stop being dishonest
> 
> Zetsu claims something incredibly vague...He just says the air around them has shifted and then assumes itachi is now serious. And then he makes another guess that Itachi MAY pull out amaterasu, Zetsu straight up says "we MIGHT see it".
> 
> ...



Zetsu basically feels "some chakra" do "something" and speculated itachi isnt dicking around

Itachi doesnt even release amaterasu in that chapter...He releases it AT THE END of the FOLLOWING CHAPTER...There is no way Zetsu felt amaterasus buildup specifically

If he did...he wouldnt have said " he MIGHT use amaterasu...but dont quote me in that"

He would have instead said "oh shit amaterasu GTFO this is hype"

Nagato on the other hand...Feels the MS buildup and called the tech out BY NAME seconds before itachi used it

Theres no comparison


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## Sapherosth (Apr 21, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No it isnt
> 
> And we've been through this already...What nagato does is in a different league...
> 
> ...





Never seen so much BS in my life. 

Tell me, when did Nagato say he sensed Itachi's chakra about to use Amateratsu?   Only Juubito has said that in this manga. 

It's also IRONIC how you mention the fact that Itachi didn't use Ama after Zetsu's statement because Itachi ALSO didn't use Amateratsu after Nagato's call-out and Nagato even stated "It's not Amateratsu?". Funnily enough, after that he got hit by something he can "supposedly" sense......Wow. 

What does that tell you then?


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## Serene Grace (Apr 21, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Also, Zetsu CLEARLY stated that "The air around Itachi has shifted"...
> 
> 
> Hardly any different than Nagato's comment "I feel...." THE AIR that has shifted.
> ...



There's a huge difference lmao, LOOK at both the contexts please,  . How the heck are those two scenarios even comparable in anyway?

Also I think Kishi is aware that most readers don't need him to blatantly write sense as most readers are smart enough to catch on that he means sense when a character is referring to an *oncoming* assault, lol.  Just concede man, this is getting ridiculous 

Nagato also didn't say anything about air shifting, so nice try buddy


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## Braiyan (Apr 21, 2017)

Itachi straight out states that Nagato can sense chakra ... why is it a question whether or not he sensed Itachi about to use Amaterasu?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Apr 22, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> There's a huge difference lmao, LOOK at both the contexts please,  . How the heck are those two scenarios even comparable in anyway?
> 
> Also I think Kishi is aware that most readers don't need him to blatantly write sense as most readers are smart enough to catch on that he means sense when a character is referring to an *oncoming* assault, lol.  Just concede man, this is getting ridiculous
> 
> Nagato also didn't say anything about air shifting, so nice try buddy




Are you ACTUALLY SERIOUS RIGHT NOW? 


There's actually zero difference whatsoever. In both panels Itachi closed his eyes and both Zetsu and Nagato felt the air around Itachi changing. 












Braiyan said:


> Itachi straight out states that Nagato can sense chakra ... why is it a question whether or not he sensed Itachi about to use Amaterasu?



Except the fact that Zetsu sensed the air around Itachi changing, not the actual chakra buildup in the eye itself, which is exactly the same scenario as Nagato who felt the air around Itachi changing, NOT the chakra build up. 


There is more to sensing than just sensing chakra. Just because Nagato can sense chakra doesn't mean he's on the same level as Juubito who as we all know could have used his EYES to see the chakra build-up, not other senses.


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## Braiyan (Apr 22, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Except the fact that Zetsu sensed the air around Itachi changing, not the actual chakra buildup in the eye itself, which is exactly the same scenario as Nagato who felt the air around Itachi changing, NOT the chakra build up.



Zetsu has exactly zero to do with the link I posted. Itachi himself established that Nagato is a sensor. There's no need to debate this.

Thus all we have to do is evaluate how good of a sensor he is, and whether Amaterasu has any properties that would prevent it from being sensed. Considering he was the only sensor in Kabuto's Edo army to correctly determine Kabuto's location, that makes him very skilled with the ability (even moreso than Mu, who could tell from kilometres away that Gaara and Rasa were related). He also shares traits with another skilled sensor like Karin, who assigns feelings like warmth, brightness, and coldness to chakra she senses (in his case it was a feeling of nostalgia).

As to whether Amaterasu can be sensed or not, Obito literally stated he sensed the chakra buildup in Sasuke's eye. Nothing about air changing, seeing it with his eyes, or anything like that. When Nagato sensed it he also never commented on air changing around Itachi. The only one asserting that was the case is you. 




Sapherosth said:


> There is more to sensing than just sensing chakra. Just because Nagato can sense chakra doesn't mean he's on the same level as Juubito who as we all know could have used his EYES to see the chakra build-up, not other senses.



There's nothing stating Nagato has to be on Juubito's level to sense Amaterasu coming. 
Mu didn't need to be a Juubi-Jin to rely on his sensing in order to dodge Naruto's Rasengan, and that was while he was charging Jinton.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Apr 22, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> Zetsu has exactly zero to do with the link I posted. Itachi himself established that Nagato is a sensor. There's no need to debate this.
> 
> Thus all we have to do is evaluate how good of a sensor he is, and whether Amaterasu has any properties that would prevent it from being sensed. Considering he was the only sensor in Kabuto's Edo army to correctly determine Kabuto's location, that makes him very skilled with the ability (even moreso than Mu, who could tell from kilometres away that Gaara and Rasa were related). He also shares traits with another skilled sensor like Karin, who assigns feelings like warmth, brightness, and coldness to chakra she senses (in his case it was a feeling of nostalgia).
> 
> ...





The term "sense" is a loose term that can apply to ANYTHING including sight, touch, smell etc. It's not just limited to chakra sensing. Until you understand this simple fact, you should just stay put before debating with me. When Obito stated that he sensed the chakra build-up in Sasuke's eyes, he could EASILY mean he saw it just like the panel below. 




Additionally, just because Nagato managed to locate Kabuto doesn't mean shit. Nagato has experience with linking chakra's over long distances and is capable of controlling bodies over long distances as well. It's not surprising that he knows where Kabuto is because of that. That's just his own unique ability.

Unlike Muu, Nagato or Karin for that matter has never displayed sensing for combat purposes but rather only support purposes instead. 

Nagato's statement didn't say "I sense", it's more of "I feel" which is much more similar to Zetsu who ALSO felt a change in atmosphere NEXT to Itachi, which is where Nagato was standing. 


Anyways, I've already this enough. Not going to repeat it again for another noob.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Braiyan (Apr 22, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> The term "sense" is a loose term that can apply to ANYTHING including sight, touch, smell etc.



I understand context, which is why all my links were in context to chakra sensing.



Sapherosth said:


> It's not just limited to chakra sensing. Until you understand this simple fact, you should just stay put before debating with me. When Obito stated that he sensed the chakra build-up in Sasuke's eyes, he could EASILY mean he saw it just like the panel below.



... this link does not mean he sensed anything by seeing it. Madara states "with this we can't sense them", "this" being the Aburame's bugs giving off the false chakra signals by spreading out. All Obito did during that scene was confirm the source of the interference with his Sharingan.



Sapherosth said:


> Additionally, just because Nagato managed to locate Kabuto doesn't mean shit. Nagato has experience with linking chakra's over long distances and is capable of controlling bodies over long distances as well.



Through chakra rods and his usage of the Six Paths jutsu. Tell me, where do you see chakra rods in the Edos that Kabuto uses? Where do you see chakra rods in Kabuto? Cuz if you can't then you'll realise how irrevelant this is to the discussion.



Sapherosth said:


> It's not surprising that he knows where Kabuto is because of that.



Except for the fact that Kabuto suggested, and Itachi himself confirmed, that it was due to Nagato being a sensor.




Sapherosth said:


> Unlike Muu, Nagato or Karin for that matter has never displayed sensing for combat purposes but rather only support purposes instead.



Yeah, because Karin has never sensed chakra in the middle of a combat situation...
You also have not proved that Nagato did not sense Amaterasu, so this is once again an unsupported assertion.



Sapherosth said:


> Nagato's statement didn't say "I sense", it's more of "I feel"



You mean like how Karin "felt" Sasuke's cold, dark chakra and Naruto's warm, bright chakra? Karin who's totally not a skilled sensor?



Sapherosth said:


> which is much more similar to Zetsu



How? Literally all you have to go on is Nagato saying "I feel ..."
Not once does he comment on a change of atmosphere, temperature rising or whatnot. "I feel ..." could just as easily be attributed to chakra sensing in much the same way Karin feels the temperature of other people's chakras.



Sapherosth said:


> who ALSO felt a change in atmosphere NEXT to Itachi, which is where Nagato was standing.



So because both of them were standing next to Itachi, one being a sensor, the other not, the mere fact that the non-sensor felt a change in atmosphere when Itachi didn't even use Amaterasu until one fight scene later implies that the sensor was feeling the same thing and thus can't sense Amaterasu? Because this is basically your argument.

When Nagato sensed Amaterasu coming Itachi's eye was already bleeding, which signifies the activation of a MS technique. Had Koto not been rigged to trigger if Naruto came into contact with Itachi's MS then clearly the next logical sequence of events would have been Kabuto forcing Itachi to use Amaterasu.

Tell me. If Zetsu could so clearly feel Amaterasu coming why doesn't it not actually happen until after they get on top of the dome nearly two chapters later? And when Itachi does use it on top of the dome, why does Zetsu not foresee that moment as well?



Sapherosth said:


> Anyways, I've already this enough. Not going to repeat it again for another noob.



>2014 Join date
>noob
Lel.

You're the one who chose to reply to me, dude. You don't see me trying to be condescending.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 22, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> >2014 Join date
> >noob
> Lel.



63 messages.

You're a noob.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 22, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> I understand context, which is why all my links were in context to chakra sensing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Itachi's a sensor, confirmed. He sensed Orohimaru while being completely blind.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 22, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Itachi's a sensor, confirmed. He sensed Orohimaru while being completely blind.




The difference between being almost blind and completely blind are world's apart


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## Braiyan (Apr 22, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Itachi's a sensor, confirmed. He sensed Orohimaru while being completely blind.



You would have a point if there were also supporting statements/feats of Itachi being able to sense chakra/being a sensor.
Even better, you would have a point if Itachi himself admitted he wasn't a sensor.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Apr 22, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> There's actually zero difference whatsoever. In both panels Itachi closed his eyes and both Zetsu and Nagato felt the air around Itachi changing.


my god this beyond anything I've ever seen here. Why Is this so hard for you to understand man, this is ridiculous.

Was Itachis bleeding meaning he was in in motion of using an MS tech the same moment Nagato said he felt something? Yes.

Did Nagato say anything about the air changing around him? No

Was Zetsu assuming that itachi was getting serious so he was expecting Amaterasu to come? Yes

Explain to me how this is so hard to understand? Because Nagato said I feel, and didn't blatantly say sense?  so you're only contradicting your OWN logic. Just concede you've been proved wrong, and you're simply making it worse for yourself

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Apr 23, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> The difference between being almost blind and completely blind are world's apart




Itachi's eyes were white at the end of that battle and he continued to wreck Orochimaru and also said "I know this feeling".

Even if he isn't legally a sensor, he has more feats of fighting while BLIND. If you don't know your shit you should STFU Troyse. Leave Itachi to me and go back to wanking Kisame. 




Braiyan said:


> You would have a point if there were also supporting statements/feats of Itachi being able to sense chakra/being a sensor.
> Even better, you would have a point if Itachi himself admitted he wasn't a sensor.



What the fuck does that matter? Lmao.

Itachi was COMPLETELY BLIND when he destroyed Yamata and he outright stated he felt Orochimaru's Hydra technique.

That is his feats that you can't deny no matter how hard you try.




The Death & The Strawberry said:


> my god this beyond anything I've ever seen here. Why Is this so hard for you to understand man, this is ridiculous.
> 
> Was Itachis bleeding meaning he was in in motion of using an MS tech the same moment Nagato said he felt something? Yes.
> 
> ...




Lmfao, you should be quiet Strawberry boy.

There are no difference between the two instances whatsoever. I can easily complete Nagato's sentence "I feel......the air around Itachi changing".  

Zetsu's statement > The air around Itachi is changing.

Juubito's statement > I can sense that you're gathering chakra in your eyes.

Which of these two statement is closer to Nagato?   It's the fucking first one. He felt the atmosphere changing because he was close to Itachi. That was it.


Stop crying about it, it's just sad.


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## Braiyan (Apr 23, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> What the fuck does that matter? Lmao.



Itachi saying he's not a sensor matters because it means he did not sense Oro's chakra.



Sapherosth said:


> Itachi was COMPLETELY BLIND



And the proof for this is?


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## Sapherosth (Apr 23, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> Itachi saying he's not a sensor matters because it means he did not sense Oro's chakra.
> 
> 
> 
> And the proof for this is?




Which means chakra isnt the only thing that can be "sensed" or felt, proving my point that what Nagato felt isn't necessarily chakra build up for Ama.


And you want proof that Itachi's blind?  I already posted the panel. Itachi's eyes was completely white. I mean, the fact that he says he "Knows this feeling" already suggests that he couldn't actually see. 






This is when his eyes went blind for Izanami.








Normal Uchiha eyes







Tell me again who doesn't know what they're talking about.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 23, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Itachi's eyes were white at the end of that battle and he continued to wreck Orochimaru and also said "I know this feeling".
> 
> Even if he isn't legally a sensor, he has more feats of fighting while BLIND. If you don't know your shit you should STFU Troyse. Leave Itachi to me and go back to wanking Kisame.



Now I see why HoN and Izaya hated Itachi wank so much, this is the epitome of it.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 23, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Now I see why HoN and Izaya hated Itachi wank so much, this is the epitome of it.




It's not wanking if it's the truth.


You can't find any evidence to prove me wrong, so I suggest you go back to the cave inside Kisame's ass where you belong Troyse before even thinking of challenging me.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 23, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> It's not wanking if it's the truth.
> 
> 
> You can't find any evidence to prove me wrong, so I suggest you go back to the cave inside Kisame's ass where you belong Troyse before even thinking of challenging me.



Taking you on isn't a challenge, you justthink Nagato sensing an incoming Amaterasu and visually seeing Yamata is the same 

You're making these wild leaps and claiming they're fact, it's absurd and highlights the fact that you are, at best, a horrible debater, taking you on isn't a challenge, I can provide all evidence necessary to convince a rational individual that Nagato is, in fact a sensor, and Itachi isn't, but you'll counter with Zetsu making a vague ass statement. Can provide you with the scan of Itachi himself saying he's not a sensor, but you'll just deny it.

Nothing wrong with being firm in your stance, Saph, but you gotta admit when you've lost, and you have.

Anyways, TDTS already tried, he provided you with everything to convince a rational individual, but you sadly, are not even close to being rational.

I'm not even gonna try.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 23, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Taking you on isn't a challenge, you justthink Nagato sensing an incoming Amaterasu and visually seeing Yamata is the same
> 
> You're making these wild leaps and claiming they're fact, it's absurd and highlights the fact that you are, at best, a horrible debater, taking you on isn't a challenge, I can provide all evidence necessary to convince a rational individual that Nagato is, in fact a sensor, and Itachi isn't, but you'll counter with Zetsu making a vague ass statement. Can provide you with the scan of Itachi himself saying he's not a sensor, but you'll just deny it.
> 
> ...





You know, from reading this I can confirm that you don't even know what the hell I was debating about in the first place.

For starters, at NO POINT did I say that Itachi was a sensor and Nagato was not. It's actually hilarious that you're trying to put words in my mouth like that. Furthermore, I've already provided evidence that Itachi was in fact blind and couldn't see Yamata while all you provided me with was absolutely nothing.

Itachi even said "I know this *feeling*" and you still insist that Itachi actually saw Yamata?   And you actually have the balls to say that I am wrong?   Haha what a joke. 

Before getting involved in ANY debate Troyse, get your facts straight. It makes you look stupid.


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## Braiyan (Apr 23, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Which means chakra isnt the only thing that can be "sensed" or felt, proving my point that what Nagato felt isn't necessarily chakra build up for Ama.



Except for the fact that Itachi's eye bled, which is the precursor for a MS technique. And considering it was his right eye, that MS technique would have to be Amaterasu. Also the fact that the only reason Amaterasu did not come right after that is because Koto activated first. 

So once again, Nagato's situation is not comparable to Zetsu's. Nor is it comparable to this situation with Oro.



Sapherosth said:


> And you want proof that Itachi's blind?  I already posted the panel. Itachi's eyes was completely white. I mean, the fact that he says he "Knows this feeling" already suggests that he couldn't actually see.



Yet he can see when Orochimaru himself comes out of the Hydra's head. Yet he knew where to slash the Hydra's heads, where to stab Oro himself, where Sasuke was, where his forehead was ...


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## Sapherosth (Apr 23, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> Except for the fact that Itachi's eye bled, which is the precursor for a MS technique. And considering it was his right eye, that MS technique would have to be Amaterasu. Also the fact that the only reason Amaterasu did not come right after that is because Koto activated first.
> 
> So once again, Nagato's situation is not comparable to Zetsu's. Nor is it comparable to this situation with Oro.
> 
> ...





Whatever, there's no point carrying on when you're so blind. Nagato sensed the air around Itachi changing like Zetsu, not the chakra charging in Itachi's eyes like Juubito did. 


As for the Itachi still being able to see - Don't you know what the eyes look like when they're blind?    It just goes to show that you don't even have to be a sensor to "feel" something.  You can LITERALLY see Itachi CLOSING his eyes. 

We've also seen Itachi reacting to blindsided attacks without even looking as well, so it's not surprising at all he can still fight to a certain extent without vision.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Android (Apr 23, 2017)

Just fucking close this thread already


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## Sapherosth (Apr 23, 2017)

All instances of blindness -












But for some reason, this one isn't considered as blind?








You've got to be shitting me. You all can "dislike" or "disagree" all you want, but you can't deny this simple fact presented in the manga.


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## Braiyan (Apr 23, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Whatever, there's no point carrying on when you're so blind. Nagato sensed the air around Itachi changing like Zetsu, not the chakra charging in Itachi's eyes like Juubito did.



So you ignored everything that's been said up to this point just to post this argument again. K then.



Sapherosth said:


> As for the Itachi still being able to see - Don't you know what the eyes look like when they're blind?    It just goes to show that you don't even have to be a sensor to "feel" something.  You can LITERALLY see Itachi CLOSING his eyes.



Right after he sees and comments on Orochimaru emerging from the Hydra's mouth. But sure, he was completely blind.

You're now at the point where you have to ignore and regurgitate the same stuff that's been debunked before. So have fun with that. Can't be bothered to keep up this discussion anymore.



To answer the thread, Jiraiya is > Kisame, and can be == Itachi depending on the conditions (location, does he have to prep Sage Mode during the battle, is he willing to sacrifice toad summons, etc).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Apr 23, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> So you ignored everything that's been said up to this point just to post this argument again. K then.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ironic, because you're doing the exact same thing.


You still haven't answered why Itachi said  "*I know this feeling*"  instead of "That's Orochimaru's Hydra Technique" if he can actually see?  

When you say "I know this feeling" it basically means you're not using your sight.

As for how Itachi "see" Orochimaru emerge, Itachi could have easily heard Orochimaru come out of the snake's mouth instead. He does have other senses apart from sight too you know. 


So far you haven't debunked shit.


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