# Yamcha vs Yhwach



## Huxbolex (Sep 6, 2019)

In the interest of creating fair and balanced fights. 

They fight on the same spot that Yamcha was Saibamanned.

Round 1: Manga Yamcha

Round 2: Toeiland Yamcha

Round 3: DBS (both manga and anime) Yamcha


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## Volt manta (Sep 6, 2019)

The better character wins.


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## God (Sep 6, 2019)

SPIRIT BALL ATTACK


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## OtherGalaxy (Sep 6, 2019)

we are transcending into the Yeehaw BattleDome


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## Sablés (Sep 6, 2019)

Pretty sure Yamcha loses in manga conditions, Not sure about Toei.


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 6, 2019)

Sablés said:


> Pretty sure Yamcha loses in manga conditions, Not sure about Toei.


yamcha is stronger than saibamen by the end of dbz so he still blows mr mustaches face way


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## Sablés (Sep 6, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> yamcha is stronger than saibamen by the end of dbz so he still blows mr mustaches face way


Sure. Saibamen lose too. They're planet-level right?


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## Lord Valgaav (Sep 6, 2019)

Volt manta said:


> The better character wins.



But that's impossible!


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## Commander Shunsui (Sep 6, 2019)

Well I do know Super Yamcha survived Beerus and Champa fighting and was knocked out but wasn't dead by two universal characters. Yhwach can't put that version down


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## shade0180 (Sep 6, 2019)

Sablés said:


> Pretty sure Yamcha loses in manga conditions, Not sure about Toei.


Isn't, Yamcha still faster than Piccolo's beam that destroyed the moon.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sablés (Sep 6, 2019)

shade0180 said:


> Isn't, Yamcha still faster than Piccolo's beam that destroyed the moon.


How fast was that? Shit got argued to death, so idr


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## shade0180 (Sep 6, 2019)

Sablés said:


> How fast was that? Shit got argued to death, so idr


Relativistic or someshit.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Crimson Dragoon (Sep 6, 2019)

Sablés said:


> Pretty sure Yamcha loses in manga conditions, Not sure about Toei.


Toeiverse Yamcha > Olibu who gave Weighted Pikkon a decent fight

Reactions: MAXIMUM 1


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## Sablés (Sep 6, 2019)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Toeiverse Yamcha > Olibu who gave Weighted Pikkon a decent fight


Bruh

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Vampire Queen108 (Sep 6, 2019)

So Toei Yamcha > Perfect Cell


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## Sablés (Sep 6, 2019)

shade0180 said:


> Relativistic or someshit.


How far in?


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 6, 2019)

there’s also a spinoff manga called yamcha reincarnated written by toriyama where he has a power level over 10,000

safe to say we know what happens against that version to



tanks multiple saibamen suicides to the face


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## shade0180 (Sep 6, 2019)

Sablés said:


> How far in?


this isn't accepted right?


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## Sablés (Sep 6, 2019)

shade0180 said:


> this isn't accepted right?


It is. It's the same method, using a more accurate freefall speed, iirc.


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## shade0180 (Sep 6, 2019)

Sablés said:


> It is. It's the same method, using a more accurate freefall speed, iirc.


only one who was discussing it are the bleach wankers.

 how was it accepted?


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## Blade (Sep 6, 2019)



Reactions: Like 3 | MAXIMUM 1


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## Sablés (Sep 6, 2019)

shade0180 said:


> only one who was discussing it are the bleach wankers.
> 
> how was it accepted?


Waka and some other dudes were there. No argument against the thread were made (because it's already been accepted). This is the same as Regi's calc that passed years ago, just a different freefall speed.
I think Dr. White brought up KE shenanigans, but was for DC not speed.


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## Sablés (Sep 6, 2019)

Blade said:


>


Why has a Toei Yamcha vs P.Cell thread never been made?

Reactions: MAXIMUM 1


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## Blade (Sep 6, 2019)

Sablés said:


> Waka and some other dudes were there. No argument against the thread were made (because it's already been accepted). This is the same as Regi's calc that passed years ago, just a different freefall speed.
> I think Dr. White brought up KE shenanigans, but was for DC not speed.




if you want it to officially be accepted

make a new thread for it on the meta section

as of now

it's just vague and nobody officially agreed


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## shade0180 (Sep 6, 2019)

Sablés said:


> Waka and some other dudes were there. No argument against the thread were made (because it's already been accepted). This is the same as Regi's calc that passed years ago, just a different freefall speed.
> I think Dr. White brought up KE shenanigans, but was for DC not speed.


Well going to point out that the shit head who changed the number inflated it.

56 m/s is what has been changed.

400 km/h is just 111 m/s

56*(474600-5.714) = *26577280.01 m t
*
Base on this shit.

changing 56 to 111 would only result to ‭52,679,965.746‬



Bobybobster said:


> *The resulting changes would be (following regi's steps)*
> New distance: *176,914,297.9 m*




 this idiot inflated it by more than two times.

As I said no one even you have bothered to check this calc so why is this shit accepted?




> 56*(474600-5.714) = *26577280.01 m*
> 
> 26577280.01+159.98 = *26577439.99 m*





regi's calc.

to add to this the 400 km/h is only applicable for position when the diver is perfectly perpendicular to the ground and has no wind turbulence changing his course. Head first feet last in a perfectly straight stance.

 Ichigo wasn't perpendicular to the ground. so you can't use that high end.

Reactions: Like 1


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## LazyWaka (Sep 6, 2019)

Whats with the spike in ywatch threads?


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## Sablés (Sep 6, 2019)

Blade said:


> if you want it to officially be accepted
> 
> make a new thread for it on the meta section
> 
> ...


Fair enough. But like, what's the point of the calc section again if the meta's the go to place anyway? 




LazyWaka said:


> Whats with the spike in ywatch threads?


Yawhee battledome week. So he's become the method of test. No clue how it started tho.


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## shade0180 (Sep 6, 2019)

Sablés said:


> Fair enough. But like, what's the point of the calc section again if the meta's the go to place anyway



calc section is for accepted shit. So it isn't littered with nonsense.

Meta is for discussion shit not involving fights.


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## LazyWaka (Sep 6, 2019)

shade0180 said:


> calc section is for accepted shit. So it isn't littered with nonsense.
> 
> Meta is for discussion shit not involving fights.



If that's how it works pretty much everyone has been doing it wrong then.


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## Sablés (Sep 6, 2019)

shade0180 said:


> calc section is for accepted shit. So it isn't littered with nonsense.
> 
> Meta is for discussion shit not involving fights.


Um...no it's not. Unless there's a ton of nonsense there. People post calcs and calcs discussions there all the time, even before it gets accepted


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## shade0180 (Sep 6, 2019)

Sablés said:


> Um...no it's not. Unless there's a ton of nonsense there. People post calcs and calcs discussions there all the time, even before it gets accepted


 pretty sure the calc section was just to link accepted calc which came from the blogs because we need a singular place where we can easily gather the calc because the blog has remained dumb..

that's literally what was discussed when that was set up.



LazyWaka said:


> If that's how it works pretty much everyone has been doing it wrong then.


 oh...



Xiammes said:


> Due to the blogs being a hassle now, it has been decided that a calculations section is more or less needed.
> 
> All the basic OBD rules apply, so if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask them in this thread.
> 
> Also, its not exactly a rule yet, but if you are going to repost your calcs from the blogs into this section, try to keep them in a single thread. A exampe "Xiammes previous blog calculation thread".



C'mon there's literally a sticky thread from Xiammes about it. (RiP Xiam)


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## OtherGalaxy (Sep 6, 2019)

Sablés said:


> Yawhee battledome week. So he's become the method of test. No clue how it started tho.



You can blame thank me and Blade for that


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## Juan (Sep 7, 2019)

Manga Yamcha is at least Saiyan Saga Goku level btw. He was confused by Android 19 to be Goku based on power levels, and Gero's last readings were taken in the Saiyan Saga.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Alita (Sep 7, 2019)

shade0180 said:


> Well going to point out that the shit head who changed the number inflated it.
> 
> 56 m/s is what has been changed.
> 
> ...



So does this debunk the entire calc or just the high end?


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## shade0180 (Sep 7, 2019)

Alita54 said:


> So does this debunk the entire calc or just the high end?


We go with what regi had, like before.


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## Alita (Sep 7, 2019)

Damn, if that's the case it makes bleach the weakest in the HST. If their god tiers are only country+ and massively hypersonic+ they can't even beat one piece top tiers anymore who are small continent and relativistic.


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## Keishin (Sep 7, 2019)

shade0180 said:


> Well going to point out that the shit head who changed the number inflated it.
> 
> 56 m/s is what has been changed.
> 
> ...


its more than "400km/h"
What speed did Felix Baumgartner reach?
He is best known for jumping to Earth from a helium balloon from the stratosphere on 14 October 2012 and landing in New Mexico, USA. Doing so, he set world records for skydiving an estimated 39 km (24 mi), *reaching* an estimated top *speed* of 1,357.64 km/h (843.6 mph), or Mach 1.25.


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## shade0180 (Sep 7, 2019)

Keishin said:


> its more than "400km/h"
> What speed did Felix Baumgartner reach?
> He is best known for jumping to Earth from a helium balloon from the stratosphere on 14 October 2012 and landing in New Mexico, USA. Doing so, he set world records for skydiving an estimated 39 km (24 mi), *reaching* an estimated top *speed* of 1,357.64 km/h (843.6 mph), or Mach 1.25.


still doesn't apply to ichigo.



> it is only applicable for position when the diver is perfectly perpendicular to the ground and has no wind turbulence changing his course and a perfectly straight stance.



Did you miss this part.


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## Keishin (Sep 7, 2019)

shade0180 said:


> still doesn't apply to ichigo.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you miss this part.


i dont have to take my stance on that because its some kind of weird lie you made up.


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## Daio (Sep 7, 2019)

Alita54 said:


> Damn, if that's the case it makes bleach the weakest in the HST. If their god tiers are only country+ and massively hypersonic+ they can't even beat one piece top tiers anymore who are small continent and relativistic.


God tiers in Bleach are at least Planet level and should be much faster but not going to get into that. 

Along with that, the myriad of potent hax in Bleach would put them above the other two verses.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Sep 7, 2019)

Manga Yamcha by the end of DBZ is at the very least as strong as Saiyan Saga Goku. 

Back in the Android arc Gero mistook Yamcha’s power for Goku’s, while taking into consideration that while he didn’t think Saiyan Saga Goku would grow that much stronger (since he assumed Goku peaked as an adult) he still left some room for anticipation.

That means Android Saga Yamcha is at the very least around KKx4 Goku, who had a PL of 32,000.

Reactions: MAXIMUM 1


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## Alita (Sep 7, 2019)

Daio said:


> God tiers in Bleach are at least Planet level and should be much faster but not going to get into that.
> 
> Along with that, the myriad of potent hax in Bleach would put them above the other two verses.



Again they are not planet level. And they are too slow and would get taken out before being able to use most if not all their hax. 

Much of their hax I don't even think would work all that well at least in the case of edos and juubi jins.


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## Keishin (Sep 7, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Manga Yamcha by the end of DBZ is at the very least as strong as Saiyan Saga Goku.
> 
> Back in the Android arc Gero mistook Yamcha’s power for Goku’s, while taking into consideration that while he didn’t think Saiyan Saga Goku would grow that much stronger (since he assumed Goku peaked as an adult) he still left some room for anticipation.
> 
> That means Android Saga Yamcha is at the very least around KKx4 Goku, who had a PL of 32,000.


where did Gero do that


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## Keishin (Sep 7, 2019)

Alita54 said:


> Again they are not planet level. And they are too slow and would get taken out before being able to use most if not all their hax.
> 
> Much of their hax I don't even think would work all that well at least in the case of edos and juubi jins.


everyone know you downplay bleach 

edos arent that useful (get tired, take time to regen, cant regen from erasure, let alone soul hax..)

Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Sep 7, 2019)

Keishin said:


> where did Gero do that

Reactions: Like 1


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## Keishin (Sep 7, 2019)

MShadows said:


>


did he even train before that


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## Alita (Sep 7, 2019)

Keishin said:


> everyone know you downplay bleach
> 
> edos arent that useful (get tired, take time to regen, cant regen from erasure, let alone soul hax..)



This is hilarious coming from the guy that regularly wanks the fuck out of NNT and bleach while simultaneously downplaying Naruto. 





Here's keishin implying your whack is multi galaxy to universe level.



I'm like 99% sure at this point your related to that yhwach user from space battles in some way, shape or form. Prove me wrong.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Keishin (Sep 7, 2019)

Alita54 said:


> This is hilarious coming from the guy that regularly wanks the fuck out of NNT and bleach while simultaneously downplaying Naruto.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i dont even think yhwach is the strongst bleach character... aizen is... when you use logic and see the jump ichigo goes then aizen unrevealed bankai must be the strongest
obviously SK is anither thing.


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## Daio (Sep 7, 2019)

Alita54 said:


> Again they are not planet level.


Yes, they are and the fact this isn't unanimously accepted by now really demonstrates some ignorance. The only feat that matters is the fact the God tiers can stabilise the worlds with their own energy. The only "counter argument" towards that ("Hurr durr flow of souls") wasn't even an argument because it was a translation error. 



Alita54 said:


> And they are too slow and would get taken out before being able to use most if not all their hax.


Not true and some of their hax works even with opposition having a speed advantage. 



Alita54 said:


> Much of their hax I don't even think would work all that well at least in the case of edos and juubi jins.


There's no point getting into this on this thread. The point I'm making is God tiers in Bleach are at least Planet level - that's it. Let's forget about their standing relative to the HST.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Alita (Sep 7, 2019)

Keishin said:


> i dont even think yhwach is the strongst bleach character... aizen is... when you use logic and see the jump ichigo goes then aizen unrevealed bankai must be the strongest
> obviously SK is anither thing.



You made it clear in that thread you thought yhwach is a damn universe buster which is the same kind of nonsense the yhwach guy on spacebattles was engaged in and pushed.


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## Sablés (Sep 7, 2019)

Alita54 said:


> Again they are not planet level.


Yes, they are.


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## Claudio Swiss (Sep 7, 2019)

Here we go again
Why not Make a thread in the Meta deciding Clorox standing for fuck sakes


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## accountmaker (Sep 7, 2019)

Yabitch just goes to a universe where Yamcha is till dead. Shouldn't be too hard to find one, honestly


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## TrueG 37 (Sep 7, 2019)

Alita54 said:


> This is hilarious coming from the guy that regularly wanks the fuck out of NNT and bleach while simultaneously downplaying Naruto.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


>Soul Society has its own universes
.


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## TrueG 37 (Sep 7, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Here we go again
> Why not Make a thread in the Meta deciding Clorox standing for fuck sakes


I'm honestly wondering about that too. Also just noticing on his page Yhwach already has planetary range. Seemingly due to hax. Am I missing something here cause this shit really is looking like what happened with Susanoo in BlazBlue. Nibbas hax allowed him to suck in all the souls in the world and "destroy it" over a period of time. But we don't translate it to DC since it's hax shit. Same seems to apply here with that black goo stuff Yhwach was using to destroy the world.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 7, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Here we go again
> Why not Make a thread in the Meta deciding Clorox standing for fuck sakes


Cause that hasnt been done 50 times before, with people making jokes and outright refusing to believe they are even when its shoved in their faces


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## Vampire Queen108 (Sep 7, 2019)

Keishin said:


> did he even train before that



I mean all the Z fighters we’re training for 3 years to prepare for the androids iirc

Plus there is the training with King Kai he had during the Frieza saga.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Claudio Swiss (Sep 7, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Cause that hasnt been done 50 times before, with people making jokes and outright refusing to believe they are even when its shoved in their faces


Idc at this point get @Masterblack06 to make sure there’s no jokes or anything and have neggas actually decide there standing cause I’m not interested in this going in every thread revolving Clorox


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## El Hermano (Sep 7, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Cause that hasnt been done 50 times before, with people making jokes and outright refusing to believe they are even when its shoved in their faces


Weren't there issues due to translations that were supposedly solved recently or some shit like that?
I'm referring to the planet level shenanigans.

I remember people were arguing in a related thread until someone brought up what they claimed to be an accurate translation. I don't recall what thread that was in, though. But it obviously didn't go anywhere. Maybe give it another shot and as Claudio said, talk to Black and make sure no one derails the thread. Try and settle this shit once and for all.


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## Masterblack06 (Sep 7, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Idc at this point get @Masterblack06 to make sure there’s no jokes or anything and have neggas actually decide there standing cause I’m not interested in this going in every thread revolving Clorox


Thats what im here for. You need me to police a thread so you can do your stuff, then I'll police the thread, ive done it with the Azure Lane stuff and I'll do it whenever you need me to

Reactions: Like 1


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## accountmaker (Sep 7, 2019)

Still waiting on why YoYoma can't warp to a verse where Yamcha is dead


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## Masterblack06 (Sep 7, 2019)

I mean even if he does, he hasnt killed the version hes fighting, he just ran to another place where a yamcha is dead. But that yamcha isnt the yamcha hes fighting


Kappa


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## Commander Shunsui (Sep 7, 2019)

Masterblack06 said:


> I mean even if he does, he hasnt killed the version hes fighting, he just ran to another place where a yamcha is dead. But that yamcha isnt the yamcha hes fighting
> 
> 
> Kappa



This ...... if he runs to that timeline then all he did was run away because he couldn't win. Also that seems like a stretch of abilities because even though he can "jump" to different futures he doesn't leave the one


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## D (Sep 16, 2019)

accountmaker said:


> Still waiting on why YoYoma can't warp to a verse where Yamcha is dead



because there's absolutely no future where Yhwach has enough power to kill Yamcha

Reactions: Agree 1


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## accountmaker (Sep 16, 2019)

D said:


> because there's absolutely no future where Yhwach has enough power to kill Yamcha


Not one where HE kills Yamcha, one where Yamcha is ALREADY dead


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 16, 2019)

accountmaker said:


> Not one where HE kills Yamcha, one where Yamcha is ALREADY dead


there is no such thing. if ywhach had a power level I promise you that things not touching a number higher than 3000 and yamcha is in the 30’s.


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## OtherGalaxy (Sep 16, 2019)

"The possibilities are endless ..." - Keishin, on Yeehaw vs Sidious, 2019 Oil on Canvas


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## Juan (Sep 16, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> higher than 3000




he's not getting into the thousands in the first place

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lurko (Sep 16, 2019)

Yamcha wins.Kappa

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bobybobster (Sep 16, 2019)

yhwach doesn't choose futures bruh, he still gets blitzed (right?)  and one shot.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Commander Shunsui (Sep 16, 2019)

Yhwach doesn't leave the timeline he's in...


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## SSBMonado (Sep 16, 2019)

Yeehaw uses the almighty to change the future, only to find an infinite number of futures where he gets brutally murdered in slightly varying ways. He picks the one he dislikes the least, but fucks up and ends up in a future where Yamcha charges at him, trips on a rock and subsequently headbutts him to death.


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## accountmaker (Sep 16, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> there is no such thing. if ywhach had a power level I promise you that things not touching a number higher than 3000 and yamcha is in the 30’s.


What? 2nd, why wouldn't, in all of the possibilities in existence (dbz was confirmed to be multiversal) wouldn't there be at least one universe where Yamcha was/stayed dead?


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## accountmaker (Sep 16, 2019)

Yusuke Uramesh1 said:


> Yhwach doesn't leave the timeline he's in...


He replaces things with those in alternate timelines. He switches live Yamcha for a dead Yamcha


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## shade0180 (Sep 16, 2019)

accountmaker said:


> What? 2nd, why wouldn't, in all of the possibilities in existence (dbz was confirmed to be multiversal) wouldn't there be at least one universe where Yamcha was/stayed dead?



Which means this fight never happened. Yhwach then wouldn't win.

He needs Yamcha to be alive at the start of this Battle, and figure out how to kill him in that duration.

He doesn't have the ability to put someone dead years in the past if he did he could have chose a future were Ichigo was already dead before he awoken any of his ability.


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## accountmaker (Sep 16, 2019)

shade0180 said:


> Which means this fight never happened. Yhwach then wouldn't win.
> 
> He needs Yamcha to be alive at the start of this Battle, and figure out how to kill him in that duration.
> 
> He doesn't have the ability to put someone dead years in the past if he did he could have chose a future were Ichigo was already dead before he awoken any of his ability.


Yhwach replacing Yamcha is the equivalent of BFR for the purposes of this debate. No, I don't mean a past Yamcha, but simply a Yamcha who, for example, wasn't wished back by the Dragon Balls. Also, I call PIS on Yhwach not soloing SS


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## shade0180 (Sep 16, 2019)

accountmaker said:


> , I call PIS on Yhwach not soloing SS


Or he just doesn't have that ability.


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## Sablés (Sep 16, 2019)

shade0180 said:


> He doesn't have the ability to put someone dead years in the past if he did he could have chose a future were Ichigo was already dead before he awoken any of his ability.


Huh? He absolutely can do this. That was he was doing to the Zanpakuto all along. He didn't do it to Ichigo himself because of PIS.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Sablés (Sep 16, 2019)

Like, how he breaks Zangetsu and Zabimaru is by opting to a future where they are already destroyed. He didn't personally break them.

*Link Removed*


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 16, 2019)

Sablés said:


> Like, how he breaks Zangetsu and Zabimaru is by opting to a future where they are already destroyed. He didn't personally break them.
> 
> *Link Removed*


so basically he’s relegated to doing this to the strongest person he’s done it to or else we run the risk of a nlf

applying that to frieza for example would be absolutely nonsensical

which means yamcha still plays volleyball with his head

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 16, 2019)

accountmaker said:


> Yhwach replacing Yamcha is the equivalent of BFR for the purposes of this debate. No, I don't mean a past Yamcha, but simply a Yamcha who, for example, wasn't wished back by the Dragon Balls. Also, I call PIS on Yhwach not soloing SS


no it’s not, everything in bleach is dwarfed in power by yamcha

not sure you’re putting two and two together but yamchas pl indicates he could casually glass jupiter if he wanted to

that’s higher than ywhachs paygrade


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## Commander Shunsui (Sep 16, 2019)

accountmaker said:


> He replaces things with those in alternate timelines. He switches live Yamcha for a dead Yamcha



Even if he could replace/destroy actual people and not items/placing traps he can only do it to people at the level he's shown it. He hasn't shown to be able to do that there's less proof of that than anything else


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## Lurko (Sep 16, 2019)

God these Bleach fans.......

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sablés (Sep 16, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> so basically he’s relegated to doing this to the strongest person he’s done it to or else we run the risk of a nlf


Is that an NLF? Because it's got nothing to do with his own strength. He does it through manipulating parallel futures. To put it another way, is Freeza's power level relevant to him no longer existing in a parallel world and can that interfere with Yhwach making that a reality? 

I'm not making an argument here by the way. I'm saying that's what you need to discuss to put a cap on the ability.



> which means yamcha still plays volleyball with his head


What the hell do we run with for Yamcha's DC and speed?


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## MShadows (Sep 16, 2019)

By the time of the Android Saga Yamcha is at the very least as strong as Saiyan Saga Goku, as Dr Gero mistakes him for the latter based on his power level and how he had anticipated Goku's growth. 

So whatever numbers you have for Saiyan Saga Goku (up to KKx4), Yamcha scales to that and some more.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hardcore (Sep 16, 2019)

Sablés said:


> Is that an NLF? Because it's got nothing to do with his own strength. He does it through manipulating parallel futures. To put it another way, is Freeza's power level relevant to him no longer existing in a parallel world and can that interfere with Yhwach making that a reality?
> 
> I'm not making an argument here by the way. I'm saying that's what you need to discuss to put a cap on the ability.
> 
> ...



the way I understand it, he needs to create a future in which he can possibly destroy them, in any possible way that he can manage

give him 1 million parallel future timelines and possible things he can do, and he won't do anything to Frieza


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## Sablés (Sep 16, 2019)

MShadows said:


> By the time of the Android Saga Yamcha is at the very least as strong as Saiyan Saga Goku, as Dr Gero mistakes him for the latter based on his power level and how he had anticipated Goku's growth.
> 
> So whatever numbers you have for *Saiyan Saga Goku* (up to KKx4), Yamcha scales to that and some more.


Yeah I know. What's that though? I know the accepted calc is double digit zettatons from Chaos. That's standard planet-level.

Speed-wise I don't have a clue.



Hardcore said:


> the way I understand it, he needs to create a future in *which he can possibly destroy them*, in any possible way that he can manage
> 
> give him 1 million parallel future timelines and possible things he can do, and he won't do anything to Frieza



Look at the page I linked in the previous page. It's not just about what he can do. It's about what's possible period.


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## MShadows (Sep 16, 2019)

Sablés said:


> Yeah I know. What's that though? I know the accepted calc is double digit zettatons from Chaos. That's standard planet-level.
> 
> Speed-wise I don't have a clue.
> 
> ...


Apparently...

"In the manga, there is no official time it took Goku to get back to Earth after being wished back during the battle with the Saiyans, but King Kai estimated it would take two days.

Considering this two day estimate, if Snake Way was a million kilometers, Goku traveled at about 20,830 kilometers per hour (13,018 miles per hour) in order to travel in 48 hours. However, Snake Way is winding, whereas on the return trip Goku is seen traveling in a straight line over the top of Snake Way."
That would put Saiyan Saga Goku at Mach 17. And going Kaioken can multiply that by up to 4x.


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## Hardcore (Sep 16, 2019)

Sablés said:


> Look at the page I linked in the previous page. It's not just about what he can do. It's about what's possible period.



didn't find it, just saw a one-liner

but really doesn't make sense, everything in possible in fiction

either in his current situation, he can go through everything 'possible' to him that can happen in the future in any way, and make it happen, or he can make whatever he wants happen in the future which is NLF

going with the first option sounds fair

or what it really is, Kubo trying to be original and creating bullshit even he doesn't understand


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## accountmaker (Sep 16, 2019)

Yusuke Uramesh1 said:


> Even if he could replace/destroy actual people and not items/placing traps he can only do it to people at the level he's shown it. He hasn't shown to be able to do that there's less proof of that than anything else


What "proof" is needed? Yhwach's ability is very straightforward. That's like saying GER wouldn't work on Yusuke because it hasn't shown to work on someone that can blow up mountains, even though what someone can or can't destroy has nothing to do with the former's power. GER can negate attacks coming at him, and reduce them to "nothing" is a description of that power. As for  YeahWatch this, what does "strength" have to do with replacing a human with a dead version of himself? Yhwach isn't killing the version of Yamcha he's fighting, he's replacing him with a version of Yamcha from another timeline. Future Trunks could literally do the same thing with his time machine!

If anything, Yamcha hasn't shown any resistance to space/time fuckery/reality warping, which Yabitches powers unfortunately fall under.

Reactions: Like 1 | Neutral 1


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## Sablés (Sep 16, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Apparently...
> 
> "In the manga, there is no official time it took Goku to get back to Earth after being wished back during the battle with the Saiyans, but King Kai estimated it would take two days.
> 
> ...


Nah it's way higher. Goku scales to Piccolo's moon bust, which is why I brought it up. I was asking for the accepted speed for that.



Hardcore said:


> didn't find it, just saw a one-liner
> 
> but really doesn't make sense, everything in possible in fiction
> 
> ...


Hey, I agree 

All this means an ability like this isn't suitable for versus debates that takes place in a vacuum. It would never make sense. What I was calling out was the idea that "X has a high power level and some conventionally higher strength", so nothing will work. When power level isn't actually important.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## accountmaker (Sep 16, 2019)

Sablés said:


> Nah it's way higher. Goku scales to Piccolo's moon bust, which is why I brought it up. I was asking for the accepted speed for that.
> 
> 
> Hey, I agree
> ...


From what is understood of Yhwach's power: he can replace sections of reality with another alternate version of that reality. Think Rick's portal gun, except Instead of transporting Rick, something from another universe gets transported to the original universe and/or replaces what's already there.

My argument is: what exactly is stopping Yhwach from replacing Yamcha with a version of him that's already dead? Literally he could just use Future Trunks' timeline, a timeline we know where all the Z fighters are dead in canon.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kaaant (Sep 16, 2019)

accountmaker said:


> My argument is: what exactly is stopping Yhwach from replacing Yamcha with a version of him that's already dead? Literally he could just use Future Trunks' timeline, a timeline we know where all the Z fighters are dead in canon.





Masterblack06 said:


> I mean even if he does, he hasnt killed the version hes fighting, he just ran to another place where a yamcha is dead. But that yamcha isnt the yamcha hes fighting
> 
> 
> Kappa



Tbh it would just function as bfr as opposed to ywach running away.


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## Claudio Swiss (Sep 16, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Apparently...
> 
> "In the manga, there is no official time it took Goku to get back to Earth after being wished back during the battle with the Saiyans, but King Kai estimated it would take two days.
> 
> ...


Saiyan saga characters are relativistic due to BOZ piccolo moon beam

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 16, 2019)

Sablés said:


> Sauce?


the time frame is


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## Claudio Swiss (Sep 16, 2019)

Sablés said:


> Sauce?


It was debated awhile back and most agreed to it in some thread regarding it.


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 16, 2019)

accountmaker said:


> What "proof" is needed? Yhwach's ability is very straightforward. That's like saying GER wouldn't work on Yusuke because it hasn't shown to work on someone that can blow up mountains, even though what someone can or can't destroy has nothing to do with the former's power. GER can negate attacks coming at him, and reduce them to "nothing" is a description of that power. As for  YeahWatch this, what does "strength" have to do with replacing a human with a dead version of himself? Yhwach isn't killing the version of Yamcha he's fighting, he's replacing him with a version of Yamcha from another timeline. Future Trunks could literally do the same thing with his time machine!
> 
> If anything, Yamcha hasn't shown any resistance to space/time fuckery/reality warping, which Yabitches powers unfortunately fall under.


It’s not like GER

GER’s ability wasn’t contradicted shortly after in the story in the way yeehaws was 

GER canned the shit out of Diavolo casually and the audience literally felt how OP it was 

what happened to yourmustache would be the equivalent of GER getting stabbed by diavolo with a special knife despite the way the power functioning literally making that an impossibility 

and it also wasn’t just one instance, it was multiple where the almighty fails to live up to its potential and the way it is described


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## Sablés (Sep 16, 2019)

Claudio Swiss said:


> It was debated awhile back and most agreed to it in some thread regarding it.


If it's this. I don't see an agreement.



Though I haven't properly read the thing. Imagine knows me too well


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## Bobybobster (Sep 17, 2019)

Sablés said:


> Like, how he breaks Zangetsu and Zabimaru is by opting to a future where they are already destroyed. He didn't personally break them.
> 
> *Link Removed*


He literally says he broke them in the future, what he did was "break" both of them in the future and once time caught up to that point in the future they were broken. So at that point he already rewrote the future to break every bankai, it just hasn't happened yet in real time (well it has for renji but we've yet to see the others.)

Rukia says the same thing:

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




Y'all need to stop with this "pick" an alternate future stuff.

Reactions: Like 1 | Neutral 1


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## accountmaker (Sep 17, 2019)

Does anyone actually know what the fuck Yhwach's power actually does? If it's attacking at different points in time, that's one thing. If it's overwriting the current universe with an alternate version, that's something else entirely. Where do we stand on this?


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## shade0180 (Sep 17, 2019)

accountmaker said:


> Does anyone actually know what the fuck Yhwach's power actually does? If it's attacking at different points in time, that's one thing. If it's overwriting the current universe with an alternate version, that's something else entirely. Where do we stand on this?


nowhere because even the fappers can't explain it properly due to Kubo messing it up so much that it literally has more than 3 different version in just a single arc.

 it's like trying to figure out heads or tails using a six-sided dice. You aren't going to get anywhere with it.


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## accountmaker (Sep 17, 2019)

shade0180 said:


> nowhere because even the fappers can't explain it properly due to Kubo messing it up so much that it literally has more than 3 different version in just a single arc.
> 
> it's like trying to figure out heads or tails using a six-sided dice. You aren't going to get anywhere with it.


Ugh. Let's just say Goku wins.


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## Commander Shunsui (Sep 17, 2019)

accountmaker said:


> As for YeahWatch this, what does "*strength*" have to do with replacing a human with a dead version of himself? Yhwach isn't killing the version of Yamcha he's fighting, he's replacing him with a version of Yamcha from another timeline. *Future Trunks could literally do the same thing with his time machine!*



He's never shown to replace people for one for two unless stated otherwise like in some series you usually need to be around or above someone to do damage or whatever you need to. Usually... unless stated otherwise. 
And yes with a time machine he did that.....a time machine. Not his own ability.


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## accountmaker (Sep 17, 2019)

Yusuke Uramesh1 said:


> He's never shown to replace people for one for two unless stated otherwise like in some series you usually need to be around or above someone to do damage or whatever you need to. Usually... unless stated otherwise.
> And yes with a time machine he did that.....a time machine. Not his own ability.


No you don't. That's why it's called "hax". The same thing could be said for GER, which only managed to stop Diavolo who was what... building level? Alabasta Sanji>GER according to your own argument. You need to prove that *Yamcha* can resist hax similar to Yhwach's, which is something he has actually never shown to do. I'm not replying to any more arguments like this. At MINIMUM it's a case by case basis. Yhwach's powers can work on Yamcha, end of story.


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## Commander Shunsui (Sep 17, 2019)

accountmaker said:


> No you don't. That's why it's called "hax". The same thing could be said for GER, which only managed to stop Diavolo who was what... building level? Alabasta Sanji>GER according to your own argument. You need to prove that *Yamcha* can resist hax similar to Yhwach's, which is something he has actually never shown to do. I'm not replying to any more arguments like this. At MINIMUM it's a case by case basis. *Yhwach's powers can work on Yamcha, end of story.*



Keyword was "usually" reading is fun... and actually.... you need to prove they can do what you're claiming because you claimed it first. And the evidence points to it not being the case(read the fight). To the bold you stated it so prove it or else you have no actual case here.


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## Commander Shunsui (Sep 17, 2019)

The "unless stated otherwise" statement figures into hax...


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## God (Sep 17, 2019)

Did I say lolbleach yet?

Reactions: Useful 1


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## shade0180 (Sep 17, 2019)

Wild said:


> Did I say lolbleach yet?


Yourwack erased it, you can say it again.


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 17, 2019)

accountmaker said:


> No you don't. That's why it's called "hax". The same thing could be said for GER


please stop saying it’s like GER.

It’s not


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 17, 2019)

Bobybobster said:


> He literally says he broke them in the future, what he did was "break" both of them in the future and once time caught up to that point in the future they were broken. So at that point he already rewrote the future to break every bankai, it just hasn't happened yet in real time (well it has for renji but we've yet to see the others.)
> 
> Rukia says the same thing:
> 
> ...


exactly

you can’t insert yamchas name in that same panel and have it make any sense.

in this battle that takes place in the ops universe, which is separate from both stories, there is literally no future where this is possible.


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## OtherGalaxy (Sep 17, 2019)

accountmaker said:


> Does anyone actually know what the fuck Yhwach's power actually does? If it's attacking at different points in time, that's one thing. If it's overwriting the current universe with an alternate version, that's something else entirely. Where do we stand on this?



there has never been any consensus reached

Almighty is apparently incredibly inconsistent in how its first shown vs its eos showings

So every thread involving it is doomed to fall into this hole until we come to some kind of conclusion


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## Sablés (Sep 17, 2019)

Bobybobster said:


> He literally says he broke them in the future


Which doesn't contradict my point?


> what he did was "break" both of them in the future and once time caught up to that point in the future they were broken. So at that point he already rewrote the future to break every bankai, it just hasn't happened yet in real time (well it has for renji but we've yet to see the others.)


Yeah except this is never stated. He never broke Tensa Zangetsu himself either. It's actually stronger than him in raw power and he never tries to interact with it directly prior to already breaking it.


> Rukia says the same thing:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Rukia is not saying anything to the contrary to what's already known. He "rewrites" the future whether he swaps timelines or whatever.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 17, 2019)

We do know it at least stops regen to some extent, since those wounds persist in the “future” he makes


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 17, 2019)

Sablés said:


> Which doesn't contradict my point?
> Yeah except this is never stated. He never broke Tensa Zangetsu himself either. It's actually stronger than him in raw power and he never tries to interact with it directly prior to already breaking it.
> 
> Rukia is not saying anything to the contrary to what's already known. He "rewrites" the future whether he swaps timelines or whatever.


Going off this, he literally needs Almighty to even destroy a broken Tensa Zangestu, when Almighty gets negated with the plot arrow he cant do shit to stop it, only break off the rest of the already near destroyed outer shell


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## SSBMonado (Sep 17, 2019)

Yeah, Orihime couldn't fix the sword... until the Fullbringer guy, who should be utter shit tier by this point, was able to change Ichigo's past so the future where Yeehaw broke the sword didn't happen.... or won't happen... or won't have happened.
Because that makes sense.

Honestly, the entire final run of Bleach was just a gigantic clusterfuck. We should probably ban Yeehaw threads, because his powers are just too damn vague and poorly defined

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Source of Hate (Sep 17, 2019)

All these years and poor reading comprehension and an imploding logic make a mess out of Bleach threads. The novels hasn't revealed any new information for Yhwach, it just gives more exposure to an idea that was obvious in the first place. The Material World was never a planet, that has been a headcanon concept. You'll find that the novel "making Bleach stronger" with each chapter is merely dismantling an age old fallacy.

The website that still doesn't know how the Almighty works, or won't settle on a consensus on account of not breaching what is incorrectly and hypocritically regarded as "NLF." Or then just pass it up as shit writing. Oh damn

The website that still thinks Ulquiorra is the strongest Espada.


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## Bobybobster (Sep 17, 2019)

Sablés said:


> Which doesn't contradict my point?
> Yeah except this is never stated. He never broke Tensa Zangetsu himself either. It's actually stronger than him in raw power and he never tries to interact with it directly prior to already breaking it.
> 
> Rukia is not saying anything to the contrary to what's already known. He "rewrites" the future whether he swaps timelines or whatever.


It does, you are saying he picked a future where they were already broken in the past or w.e. Not the case. 

Can you find me a single scan of yhwach saying he swaps timeline? Because all he says is he rewrites the future, plain and simple like I explained.

He did break ichigo's bankai himself, he literally states "I broke it in the future". 
Meaning he rewrote the future before ichigo went bankai to have it broken, so that when he did go bankai it broke.
He also didn't break it by directly interacting with it or using his own power, but it was done through future manipulation, hence bypassing durability. 

What rukia states just supports what I'm saying. Yhwach broke it in the future, not the past.


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## Hazard (Sep 17, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Apparently...
> 
> "In the manga, there is no official time it took Goku to get back to Earth after being wished back during the battle with the Saiyans, but King Kai estimated it would take two days.
> 
> ...


also he was not going at full speed since its basicly impossible to be at full speed non stop and pretty sure he doesnt want to make the same mistake he made on his way to king kai.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 17, 2019)

SSBMonado said:


> Yeah, Orihime couldn't fix the sword... until the Fullbringer guy, who should be utter shit tier by this point, was able to change Ichigo's past so the future where Yeehaw broke the sword didn't happen.... or won't happen... or won't have happened.
> Because that makes sense.
> 
> Honestly, the entire final run of Bleach was just a gigantic clusterfuck. We should probably ban Yeehaw threads, because his powers are just too damn vague and poorly defined


Tsukishima’s ability works by inserting memories into people by cutting them which changes the past retroactively. If he makes a past where the future never happened, it cant come into effect

Its just one of those Bleach “my power perfectly counters your power” things

Reactions: Like 1


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## Source of Hate (Sep 17, 2019)

People forget that Yhwach literally died on panel and rewrote himself alive. And then argue "possible" futures. Yeah, fuck common sense

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 17, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> People forget that Yhwach literally died on panel and rewrote himself alive. And then argue "possible" futures. Yeah, fuck common sense


whose dupe is this


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## Kaaant (Sep 17, 2019)

How hard can it be to simply outline how his powers work lmao


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## Claudio Swiss (Sep 17, 2019)

Kaaant said:


> How hard can it be to simply outline how his powers work lmao


Cause Kubo


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## Source of Hate (Sep 17, 2019)

Kaaant said:


> How hard can it be to simply outline how his powers work lmao


I'll summarize it in simple enough terms:

It is the Visionary but with a head start.

The question: does the Visionary also need to be explained? I'll bet that, in here, it does.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kaaant (Sep 17, 2019)

Go for it

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lurko (Sep 17, 2019)

Wild said:


> Lolbleach


It's just too much. Seven pages!!


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Kaaant said:


> Go for it


Shockingly, it does just what Gremmy says: it makes everything he imagines real.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## shade0180 (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> Shockingly, it does just what Gremmy says: it makes everything he imagines real.


lolbleach.


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> Shockingly, it does just what Gremmy says: it makes everything he imagines real.


except he fucking exploded when imagining to be as strong as kenpachi so try again

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Lurko (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> except he fucking exploded when imagining to be as strong as Yamcha so try again

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> except he fucking exploded when imagining to be as strong as kenpachi so try again


You mean *his avatar* exploded. Is this your counterexample to Gremmy's stated ability to turn his imagination into reality?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Lurko (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> You mean *his avatar* exploded. Is this your counterexample to Gremmy's stated ability to turn his imagination into reality?


Whose's dupe are you?


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Lurker said:


> Whose's dupe are you?


If you're not going to resort to ad hominems, then it doesn't matter. That is all I will say on the matter so as not to violate the rules of derailing the thread


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Sep 18, 2019)

your face already derailed the thread


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## Juan (Sep 18, 2019)

> listening to source of hate

you guys really don't have anything more productive to do?

like watch paint dry?


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## OtherGalaxy (Sep 18, 2019)

here we go again


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## Bobybobster (Sep 18, 2019)

This hate guy does does seem to have the right idea of how almighty works, but he is just being unnecessarily condescending and an asshole, which seems to be counterproductive if you are trying to get people to understand something 



Kaaant said:


> How hard can it be to simply outline how his powers work lmao


1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4

You are at 1, the present. From there you go to 2 -> 3 -> 4. Yhwach decides he doesn't like 4, so whilst we are still at 1 (the present) he edits the 4 and rewrites it as a 5. So now it becomes:

1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 5.

Which is why he keeps saying "I broke your shit in the future".

That's about it, but he can do this to all possible futures.


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

Bobybobster said:


> This hate guy does does seem to have the right idea of how almighty works, but he is just being unnecessarily condescending and an asshole, which seems to be counterproductive if you are trying to get people to understand something
> 
> 
> 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4
> ...


so we’re back to relegating what he can edit to the strongest object/person he has edited

because if I’m understanding you correctly, he could’ve edited everyone out of the way casually and yet that didn’t happen. aizen gave him difficulty, ichibei momentarily, ichigo amongst others. every single battle was a case by case basis for him. yes he had the advantage every time but he still had to go through the battles ebbs and flows before giving himself a w. that is not the way of an reality warper. reality warpers don’t have difficulty. they just warp shit and be done with it.

no matter how we try and slice this, yamcha is still sending yeehaw through the golden experience


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## Bobybobster (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> so we’re back to relegating what he can edit to the strongest object/person he has edited
> 
> because if I’m understanding you correctly, he could’ve edited everyone out of the way casually and yet that didn’t happen. aizen gave him difficulty, ichibei momentarily, ichigo amongst others. the difficulty presented allows us to define his limit. every single battle was a case by case basis for him. yes he had the advantage every time but he still had to go through the battles ebbs and flows before giving himself a w. that is not the way of an reality warper and is much closer to a probability magician. reality warpers don’t have difficulty. they just warp shit and be done with it.
> 
> no matter how we slice try and slice this yamcha is still sending him through the golden experience


He could've easily edited everyones heads off, but he specifically didn't as stated here:

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*





The classic bad guy throwing away his gun and wanting to punch you instead.

Also Ichibei literally got neg diffed once yhwach got almighty.

I don't see how strength gives you resistance to future manipulation, we've seen him break something above him in strength. He is not directly breaking things with his own strength  nor is he limited to writing things he can normally do (neg'ing ichibei, rewriting his death) but he does these things through a secondary mechanism. You can however put limits to stuff like the scale of things he can edit.

So if yamcha can't blitz and he doesn't kill everyone with his presence or smthing then he probably looses.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

Bobybobster said:


> He could've easily edited everyones heads off, but he specifically didn't as stated here:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


so basically because of his own induced CIS we arbitrarily remove the established limit shown in his ability

nah, not buying it. he can edit the strongest thing he’s edited and that’s all there is to it.

again, him after all those hundreds of years didn’t see anything about the special knife or whatever which is insanely incompetent if we take his word about his ability, even for him

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bobybobster (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> so basically because of his own induced CIS we arbitrarily remove the established limit shown in his ability
> 
> nah, not buying it. he can edit the strongest thing he’s edited and that’s all there is to it.
> 
> again, him after all those hundreds of years didn’t see anything about the special knife or whatever which is insanely incompetent if we take his word about his ability, even for him


I literally said he has limits on the scale of what he can alter, the time into the future that he can affect, the event that he can rewrite etc.
These are established limits, literally every character with hax can be downgraded if you go by "oh they didn't use their hax to instantly kill everyone".

He has literally edited something stronger than him in canon, we know it wasn't by his own strength and ichigo noted he didn't feel anything when his bankai broke so it's not like he made an attack that he fired land, he also used the almighty to do things he can't normally do as well.

Since he is not directly attacking something, how does durability come into play?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

Bobybobster said:


> I literally said he has limits on the scale of what he can alter, the time into the future that he can affect, the event that he can rewrite etc.
> These are established limits, literally every character with hax can be downgraded if you go by "oh they didn't use their hax to instantly kill everyone".
> 
> He has literally edited something stronger than him in canon, we know it wasn't by his own strength and ichigo noted he didn't feel anything when his bankai broke so it's not like he made an attack that he fired land, he also used the almighty to do things he can't normally do as well.
> ...


it’s not hard to understand. he can edit the strongest thing he’s edited in canon

that’s really all there is to it

fictions end all the time and the premise your trying to push would allow a host of characters who have hax, no limits on their abilities just because it worked on someone stronger than them in their respective stories

yamcha is a few tiers above anything demonstrated in bleach so by default he can’t be physically edited by yhwach for the simple fact the guy has not demonstrated an ability to edit someone who is completely out of his league. he can edit someone as strong as ichigo and that’s it

had he actually warped something instead of doing simple nuances such as breaking shit we’d have something to discuss but no his creativity limited him to what was shown so it is what it is

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Bobybobster (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> it’s not hard to understand. he can edit the strongest thing he’s edited in canon
> 
> that’s really all there is to it
> 
> ...


Once again how does durability come into play. He is not going through someone natural durability to edit them in them future, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to break ichigo's bankai. You would be right about stuff like his traps, which are attacks that he placed in the future.

I'm not trying to push any premise here, just saying that this is a form of reality warping, but based in the future.
When the present moves on and reaches the point in the future that he rewrote the present essentially swaps to that version of events.
You keep saying no limit, when I already posted the limits, getting tired of this stonewalling.

He has used it to teleport, rewrite death, make himself unaffected by ichibei's hax and the soul king has used his to separate the realm into 3/ keep them in their place.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Kaaant (Sep 18, 2019)

Can he bfr with it?


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## Bobybobster (Sep 18, 2019)

Kaaant said:


> Can he bfr with it?


he has not demonstrated anything like that, only teleporting short distances by rewriting his position in the future. He can counter bfr with it, though he already has other means of doing that.

Soul king is a maybe as his almighty seems to have a much bigger range (covering the 3 realms), but that's just speculation.


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## SSBMonado (Sep 18, 2019)

There's also the fact that the 2nd time he broke Ichigo's bankai, he had intended to destroy it completely, but only managed to crack it. 

If his power was straight reality warping, then this shouldn't have been possible. Instead, this could mean that when he says "I broke your shit in the future" he means it literally. As in the sword broke because Yeehaw created a future where he smacked it really hard, but fucked up and didn't smack it hard enough. 
If that is the case, then the changes to the future Yeehaw can make are limited to his stats - he can't destroy something in the future he doesn't have the strength to destroy in the present.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Adamant soul (Sep 18, 2019)

SSBMonado said:


> There's also the fact that the 2nd time he broke Ichigo's bankai, he had intended to destroy it completely, but only managed to crack it.



Yhwach attributed that to "luck" or "good fortune".

It was actually because Ichigo wasn't even there at the time, it was just an illusion created by Aizen using Kyouka Suigetsu.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 18, 2019)

Kaaant said:


> Can he bfr with it?


Any mook in Bleach can open inter dimensional portals, so yea he should easily be able to


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> Yhwach attributed that to "luck" or "good fortune".
> 
> It was actually because Ichigo wasn't even there at the time, it was just an illusion created by Aizen using Kyouka Suigetsu.


how does someone who can see all futures get caught in an illusion

if you tell me it’s because he didn’t have it turned on at the time than the shit is even weaker than I thought it was



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Any mook in Bleach can open inter dimensional portals, so yea he should easily be able to



right. how many battles has he had and how many times has he demonstrated something any mook In bleach can do?


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## Adamant soul (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> how does someone who can see all futures get caught in an illusion
> 
> if you tell me it’s because he didn’t have it turned on at the time than the shit is even weaker than I thought it was



As far as I understand it, it's because when Aizen first put him under KS (during the 1st invasion) he didn't have access to the Almighty. He had to absorb the power from multiple Sternritters before he was able to use it later.

Now this doesn't change the fact that we know (from Ichigo) that Aizen activated KS while he was on his way to the final battle (he senses its release) meaning it was not active before that point. Meanwhile Yhwach had been actively using the Almighty since the first fight with Ichigo and had not turned it off between fights.

So how did he get caught in an illusion, especially when Aizen had already screwed him with KS once and he should have been wary of it? I have no fucking clue.

The Almighty certainly should have shown him when Aizen was going to release KS (even if Aizen could interfere with what it showed him after that point, which it did) so it just comes across as Yhwach being an arrogant dumbass and forgetting about it.

Reactions: MAXIMUM 1


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## Commander Shunsui (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> right. how many battles has he had and how many times has he demonstrated something any mook In bleach can do?



It's been shown that Shinigami oopen senkaimon, hollows open gargantas and the Quincy have that shadow thing. Fullbringers are the only ones who hasn't shown that except for Yukio

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MShadows (Sep 18, 2019)

Or maybe Aizen-sama is just so OP that not even Lord Almighty Mustache can see through his illusions

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Many things come into play for Yhwach's defeat.
1. Haschwalth betrayed Yhwach while he was in possession of Almighty and introduced a future in which Yhwach dies to Ichigo as a dream while Yhwach slept. This made Yhwach disregard it entirely while he edited all the futures. This is the Doctor Strange's 14 million to 1 type of scenario.
2. Aizen's KS was cast when Yhwach visited him in Muken. Not only that, but its effects last forever. He doesn't have to cast it each time he wants to use it. So Aizen was basically prepped. And since Almighty relies on Yhwach's sight, which Aizen had seamless manipulation over, then Yhwach's "edits" were, so to say, "buggy."
3. The Antithesis was specifically stated to be a counter to the Almighty. And considering that Uryuu at one point circumvented Haschwalth's precognition whilst the latter had the Almighty, it is safe to assume that Uryuu was not even on the Almighty's radar when he shot the arrow made from Yhwach's own power. Yhwach could not see Uryuu or his actions.

This all follows in the one timeline, or I should say "specific set of grains of sand" set up by Haschwalth.

And at the end of the day, depending on the novels, it may even have been part of the Soul King's orchestra.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> right. how many battles has he had and how many times has he demonstrated something any mook In bleach can do?


See here this the type of argument that does not apply in Yhwach threads, because Yhwach by default has knowledge of all the opponent's abilities and every possible outcome, and even access to impossible outcomes. That is what the Almighty is for.

There are no odds when it comes to Yhwach. He either wins or doesn't. If BFR is a possibility, then he wins, period.


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> it’s not hard to understand. he can edit the strongest thing he’s edited in canon
> 
> that’s really all there is to it
> 
> ...


I know you're arguing from a decade old standard but it just doesn't make sense. If X has the ability to teleport water inside Yamcha's lungs, and did it, then Yamcha would drown. Yamcha's physical defense against high impact or heat has nothing to do with his ability to breathe. The sickening argument known as no limits fallacy is being referenced correctly to say that Yamcha cannot defend against water being teleported into his lungs just because some other random attribute, like his DC or DC he can take, is higher than X's, even if a Yamcha level character does not exist in X's fictional universe for X to try it on.
NLF goes both ways when referenced _correctly_

Reactions: Like 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 18, 2019)

MShadows said:


> Or maybe Aizen-sama is just so OP that not even Lord Almighty Mustache can see through his illusions


KS is stupid broken since it could fuck with Almighty, but Aizen implies he wasnt exactly in control of the illusion since he was fascinated that Yhwach saw him as Ichigo.


Dreams of Tommorow said:


> how does someone who can see all futures get caught in an illusion
> 
> if you tell me it’s because he didn’t have it turned on at the time than the shit is even weaker than I thought it was
> 
> ...


He opened a gate from the SK Palace to SS casually which is thousands of kilometers and we know the Quincy can get to Hueco Mundo which requires a Garganta. Fucker also held 3 planets seperated by dimensional space together passively. Please, inform me how he cant bfr people

Reactions: Like 1


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> He opened a gate from the SK Palace to SS casually which is thousands of kilometers


More like millions, at the very least


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## Adamant soul (Sep 18, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> KS is stupid broken since it could fuck with Almighty, but Aizen implies he wasnt exactly in control of the illusion since he was fascinated that Yhwach saw him as Ichigo.



It was "fascinating" because it confirmed that KS could affect the Almighty. Aizen is in full control of what his targets experience through Kyouka Suigetsu, he explains as much as far back as the SS arc.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Huxbolex (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> See here this the type of argument that does not apply in Yhwach threads, because Yhwach by default has knowledge of all the opponent's abilities and every possible outcome, and even access to impossible outcomes. That is what the Almighty is for.
> 
> There are no odds when it comes to Yhwach. He either wins or doesn't. If BFR is a possibility, then he wins, period.


Yet he couldn't do anything about Aizen's illusions or "the Antithesis", as you yourself admitted:



Source of Hate said:


> 2. Aizen's KS was cast when Yhwach visited him in Muken. Not only that, but its effects last forever. He doesn't have to cast it each time he wants to use it. So Aizen was basically prepped. And since Almighty relies on Yhwach's sight, which Aizen had seamless manipulation over, then Yhwach's "edits" were, so to say, "buggy."
> 3. The Antithesis was specifically stated to be a counter to the Almighty. And considering that Uryuu at one point circumvented Haschwalth's precognition whilst the latter had the Almighty, it is safe to assume that Uryuu was not even on the Almighty's radar when he shot the arrow made from Yhwach's own power. Yhwach could not see Uryuu or his actions.


Nothing like these would have even happened if Yhwach was *half* as potent as you claim.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 18, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> It was "fascinating" because it confirmed that KS could affect the Almighty. Aizen is in full control of what his targets experience through Kyouka Suigetsu, he explains as much as far back as the SS arc.


Wouldnt he already know it was working though?


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## Adamant soul (Sep 18, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Wouldnt he already know it was working though?



Of course he did, but it's Aizen and as we all know he's a troll. The only reason he said anything was so that Yhwach would know that Kyouka Suigetsu DID work on Almighty. There's no other reason for him to speak there.

He just wasn't counting on Lord Moustache bringing himself back to life and one-shotting him.


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## Bobybobster (Sep 18, 2019)

How did aizen even know what ichigo's bankai looks like?  (2 marks)


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> I know you're arguing from a decade old standard but it just doesn't make sense. If X has the ability to teleport water inside Yamcha's lungs, and did it, then Yamcha would drown. Yamcha's physical defense against high impact or heat has nothing to do with his ability to breathe. The sickening argument known as no limits fallacy is being referenced correctly to say that Yamcha cannot defend against water being teleported into his lungs just because some other random attribute, like his DC, is higher than X's, even if a Yamcha level character does not exist in X's fictional universe for X to try it on.
> NLF goes both ways when referenced _correctly_



and that’s why we do this on a case by case basis

the argument I referenced was attempting to introduce something that goes directly against that standard


OneSimpleAnime said:


> KS is stupid broken since it could fuck with Almighty, but Aizen implies he wasnt exactly in control of the illusion since he was fascinated that Yhwach saw him as Ichigo.
> 
> He opened a gate from the SK Palace to SS casually which is thousands of kilometers and we know the Quincy can get to Hueco Mundo which requires a Garganta. Fucker also held 3 planets seperated by dimensional space together passively. Please, inform me how he cant bfr people


its not about it informing you of anything

It’s that this power is wacky and inconsistent as all hell

and even still, that was not applied towards a combatant in battle who happens to be a fuckload faster than he is. even you have to admit this


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## Bobybobster (Sep 18, 2019)

bruh if yamcha blitzs, what's there to argue 

His power ain't wacky or even hard to understand, you just refuse to listen and try to downplay it lol


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> and that’s why we do this on a case by case basis
> 
> the argument I referenced was attempting to introduce something that goes directly against that standard
> 
> ...


Aint it speed equal?


Bobybobster said:


> How did aizen even know what ichigo's bankai looks like?  (2 marks)


he had already seen it when Ichigo showed up


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Aint it speed equal?





Huxbolex said:


> In the interest of creating fair and balanced fights.
> 
> They fight on the same spot that Yamcha was Saibamanned.
> 
> ...


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## BossKitten (Sep 18, 2019)

You only have to see Aizen's KS once to be under its power. Bach was under Aizen's illusion ability before he gained Almightly and gaining it doesn't change pre-Almighty events. That is why Aizen's abilities still had an effect. Also, Aizen is also a transcendent being to boot.


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## Adamant soul (Sep 18, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> You only have to see Aizen's KS once to be under its power. Bach was under Aizen's illusion ability before he gained Almightly and gaining it doesn't change pre-Almighty events. That is why Aizen's abilities still had an effect.



Except KS isn't active 24/7. Aizen still needs to release the sword to use its effect, Ichigo senses this happening on the way to the final fight and compares it to when Aizen did the same thing in the FKT arc. Even Aizen admits he'd only activated it just before Yhwach arrived.

Meaning there was a good chunk of time where the Almighty is active and Kyouka Suigetsu wasn't. Nothing was interfering with the Almighty at that time. At the very least, the Almighty should have shown Yhwach that Aizen was going to activate KS.


> Also, Aizen is also a transcendent being to boot.



He's still FAR weaker than Soul King Yhwach so that means very little, 
Moustache literally one-shots Aizen right after he comes back to life.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Huxbolex said:


> Yet he couldn't do anything about Aizen's illusions or "the Antithesis", as you yourself admitted:
> 
> Nothing like these would happen if Yhwach was half as potent as you claimed.


Those abilities and the circumstances in which they were executed were capable of circumventing the Almighty. They are not a counter-example to the claim that Yhwach can rewrite the futures however he wants.

When the Almighty was introduced, this is what was stated: it sees the future, and every power that he sees, he immediately understands, and it becomes unable to harm him.

Antithesis and KS under the right circumstances work against Yhwach because the Almighty either can't see it, or can't see it accurately. Just like it also can't see another Almighty user like the Soul King or Mimihagi


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Bobybobster said:


> How did aizen even know what ichigo's bankai looks like?  (2 marks)


Aizen planned to bring down the SK palace from the Seireitei with his Reiatsu. If his Reiatsu reaches that high, then probably so does his sensing

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> and that’s why we do this on a case by case basis
> 
> the argument I referenced was attempting to introduce something that goes directly against that standard


Not so because you're arguing that the character has arbitrary resistance to reality warping just because he has a higher physical defense compared to Yhwach


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## BossKitten (Sep 18, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> Except KS isn't active 24/7. Aizen still needs to release the sword to use its effect, Ichigo senses this happening on the way to the final fight and compares it to when Aizen did the same thing in the FKT arc. Even Aizen admits he'd only activated it just before Yhwach arrived.
> 
> Meaning there was a good chunk of time where the Almighty is active and Kyouka Suigetsu wasn't. Nothing was interfering with the Almighty at that time. At the very least, the Almighty should have shown Yhwach that Aizen was going to activate KS.
> 
> ...



False. 

Aizen put Bach under an illusion while sitting in the chair. This is due to him fusing with his Zan, so he doesn't have to "pull it out" anymore. Aizen even stated that Ichigo never seeing KS ended up being a good thing in their battle with Bach because he wasn't effected during the final battle. 

The idea of the Almighty showing Bach that KS was going to be activated is already flawed because the vision he would have seen would have been an illusion with no key-points of activation. 

I recall Bach causing major damage, but I don't recall Aizen being out cold or unable to fight.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> Except KS isn't active 24/7. Aizen still needs to release the sword to use its effect, Ichigo senses this happening on the way to the final fight and compares it to when Aizen did the same thing in the FKT arc. Even Aizen admits he'd only activated it just before Yhwach arrived.
> 
> Meaning there was a good chunk of time where the Almighty is active and Kyouka Suigetsu wasn't. Nothing was interfering with the Almighty at that time. At the very least, the Almighty should have shown Yhwach that Aizen was going to activate KS.


Aizen only needs to utter Kyoka Suigetsu to trap someone in the hypnosis for the first time. But that was only when he was a Shinigami. It seems that now even that isn't necessary as a transcendent, as he trapped Yhwach in the hypnosis in Muken, where Aizen was bound and unable to speak

Edit: ninja'd

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Aint it speed equal?


What is speed to someone that has seen and manipulated all of fate the very instant the fight begins?


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> Not so because you're arguing that the character has arbitrary resistance to reality warping just because he has a higher physical defense compared to Yhwach


because reality warpers don’t have bullshit weaknesses like metals and being vulnerable to illusions 

again they just warp shit out the way and be done with it. this conditional reality warping shit comes off as a weak excuse for the real thing and as such is susceptible to interpretation 

the way i understand it, there was not nearly enough creativity or competency displayed for me to believe someone who is out of yhwach league physically, has control over his own ki( see vegito and candy to see how that works) and is magnitudes faster than him does anything but get a w here


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## Bobybobster (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> What is speed to someone that has seen and manipulated all of fate the very instant the fight begins?




because he hasn't seen nor manipulated anything if he is getting blitzed.


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## Bobybobster (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> because reality warpers don’t have bullshit weaknesses like metals and being vulnerable to illusions
> 
> again they just warp shit out the way and be done with it. this conditional reality warping shit comes off as a weak excuse for the real thing and as such is susceptible to interpretation
> 
> the way i understand it, there was not nearly enough creativity or competency displayed for me to believe someone who is out of yhwach league physically, has control over his own ki( see vegito and candy to see how that works) and is magnitudes faster than him does anything but get a w here



yup durability totally gives you the all clear to having your future rewritten


has a weakness, must be nlf


author didn't make the dude kill everyone with hax, must be random arbitrary physical limits


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

Bobybobster said:


> yup durability totally gives you the all clear to having your future rewritten
> 
> 
> has a weakness, must be nlf
> ...


what reality warper you know can’t edit himself to be immune to all illusions?

or maybe edit a future where no illusions can effect him? 

it’s that incompetency that makes me believe he can’t. It’s way to many what ifs 

admit it already and stop hiding behind the story to remove the limits off of dudes powerset


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> because reality warpers don’t have bullshit weaknesses like metals and being vulnerable to illusions
> 
> again they just warp shit out the way and be done with it.


They can't warp shit they don't see coming unless it was pre-warped



> this conditional reality warping shit comes off as a weak excuse for the real thing and as such is susceptible to interpretation


Dude it's written that way for the sake of story-telling. Turn your VS mindest off when reading fiction and you might actually enjoy a chapter or two. It's solid enough that certain interpretations can be refuted through discussion, which is what we're doing here.



> the way i understand it, there was not nearly enough creativity or competency displayed for me to believe someone who is out of yhwach league physically, has control over his own ki( see vegito and candy to see how that works) and is magnitudes faster than him does anything but get a w here


The fact that Majin Buu was even capable of turning Vegito into candy is proof that menial transmutation magic works on someone with arbitrarily higher physical stats, even if Buu's magic does not remove Ki. The thing is that this proof is not necessary to argue that it would affect Vegeto; the defense has to prove that Vegeto can resist it to begin with.


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## Bobybobster (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> what reality warper you know can’t edit himself to be immune to all illusions?
> 
> or maybe edit a future where no illusions can effect him?
> 
> ...



any reality warper that hasn't shown the ability to edit himself to be immune to all illusions


You missed the limitations I told you about before? All from the story.
I shouldn't even need to bring up the story to explain why something as plain as durability doesn't give you special resistance to having your future rewritten.


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Bobybobster said:


> because he hasn't seen nor manipulated anything if he is getting blitzed.


That would suggest that the processing of an infinite amount of futures requires a time span, which sounds illogical as it is. At least to me


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

Bobybobster said:


> any reality warper that hasn't shown the ability to edit himself to be immune to all illusions
> 
> 
> You missed the limitations I told you about before? All from the story.
> I shouldn't even need to bring up the story to explain why something as plain as durability doesn't give you special resistance to having your future rewritten.


It’s not special resistance I’m arguing for

I’m arguing for him dying every single time before the warp can actually fully take place since by your own admission it is conditional and has limitations on range and scale


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## Bobybobster (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> That would suggest that the processing of an infinite amount of futures requires a time span, which sounds illogical as it is. At least to me


He has to take action to identify threats and rewrite the future, can't take action if he is getting blitzed.


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## Bobybobster (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> It’s not special resistance I’m arguing for
> 
> I’m arguing for him dying every single time before he can warp can actually fully take place


I already said yamcha wins if he can blitz.


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

Bobybobster said:


> I already said yamcha wins if he can blitz.


so we agree than, to simplify all this, he loses since one dude is relativistic and the other dude isn’t


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> what reality warper you know can’t edit himself to be immune to all illusions?
> 
> or maybe edit a future where no illusions can effect him?


One that can't see it coming, or one whose target exists outside of precognition.



> it’s that incompetency that makes me believe he can’t. It’s way to many what if
> 
> admit it already and stop hiding behind the story to remove the limits off of dudes powerset


Considering the fact that Yamcha has no eternal hypnosis without a visible trigger, I don't see how it helps


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## Volt manta (Sep 18, 2019)

Was it ever confirmed or not if Yhwach has access to the Sternritter's powers (or at least the ones he absorbed when he stole their powers back from them)?


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Bobybobster said:


> He has to take action to identify threats and rewrite the future, can't take action if he is getting blitzed.


Define "action." The only way Yamcha may blitz is if Yhwach doesn't start with Almighty


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Bobybobster said:


> I already said yamcha wins if he can blitz.


Yhwach has revived himself. He rewrote the future while dead


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## BossKitten (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> *what reality warper you know can’t edit himself to be immune to all illusions?*
> 
> or maybe edit a future where no illusions can effect him?
> 
> ...



Since when did that become a basic skill for all reality warpers? 

There are levels to everything.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Volt manta said:


> Was it ever confirmed or not if Yhwach has access to the Sternritter's powers (or at least the ones he absorbed when he stole their powers back from them)?


He should, but they are obsolete compared to the Almighty.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> Yhwach has revived himself. He rewrote the future while dead


curious as to where this stops for you 

could yhwach rewrite frieza for example?


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

BossKitten said:


> Since when did that become a basic skill for all reality warpers?
> 
> There are levels to everything.


since reality itself receives priority over something as simple as perception


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> curious as to where this stops for you
> 
> could yhwach rewrite frieza for example?


Likewise, can Freeza breathe with water in his lungs?

Edit: nvm that. Are you actually going to try to refute Yhwach's ability to rewrite himself alive?


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> Likewise, can Freeza breathe with water in his lungs?


a question with a question is lazy debating

answer mine and I’ll answer yours


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> a question with a question is lazy debating
> 
> answer mine and I’ll answer yours


I edited


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## Adamant soul (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> since reality itself receives priority over something as simple as perception



The fuck are you talking about? Reality warpers aren't, by default, omniscient beings with resistance to illusions (or inherent resistance to hax of any kind for that matter). They still need to process what is happening around them and react accordingly. 

They only have resistance to illusions and other hax if they actually show that/have feats to prove it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> The fuck are you talking about? Reality warpers aren't, by default, omniscient beings with resistance to illusions (or inherent resistance to hax of any kind for that matter). They still need to process what is happening around them and react accordingly.
> 
> They only have resistance to illusions and other hax if they actually show that/have feats to prove it.


sure

don’t have to be omniscient to say I don’t want illusions to effect me

don’t know where resistance came from

Im arguing the point of ywach knowing kyoka suigetsu is out there and not just warping to be immune to it seeing as the almighty supposedly is the top of the food chain in that verse

hilarious that you thought that’s what I meant though


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> Likewise, can Freeza breathe with water in his lungs?
> 
> Edit: nvm that. Are you actually going to try to refute Yhwach's ability to rewrite himself alive?


nope 

he’s just going to keep dying hence my mentioning of a requiem


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## Bobybobster (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> curious as to where this stops for you
> 
> could yhwach rewrite frieza for example?




 More power make me immune to hax


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> sure
> 
> don’t have to be omniscient to say I don’t want illusions to effect me
> 
> ...


He doesn't explicitly know that KS is out there, that's why he decided to ge rid of it afterwards. Anyway Yhwach warps based on what he can see. Since he can't see accurately what KS is presenting, then it proves an inconvenience. It's a weakness. It doesn't disprove his capabilities


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## Adamant soul (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> sure
> 
> don’t have to be omniscient to say I don’t want illusions to effect me



That requires:

For them to notice they're in an illusion (again they're not omniscient, they can still be tricked)
That they have the feats to break the illusion
It's not as simple as "not wanting illusions to effect them" (ignoring the fact that a powerful enough illusion would still effect them anyway).


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> nope
> 
> he’s just going to keep dying hence my mentioning of a requiem


At that point the match would in theory end in a stalemate, since neither could permanently finish off the other. Unless Yamcha runs out of stamina


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## Bobybobster (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> Define "action." The only way Yamcha may blitz is if Yhwach doesn't start with Almighty



"I rewrite the future". Do you see the action?

As for his death, he had time to rewrite that after being stabbed and before turning to goo.


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> That requires:
> 
> For them to notice they're in an illusion (again they're not omniscient, they can still be tricked)
> That they have the feats to break the illusion
> It's not as simple as "not wanting illusions to effect them" (ignoring the fact that a powerful enough illusion would still effect them anyway).


I’m not arguing about this in a vacuum

I’m talking strictly in verse 

almighty should by all accounts been able to have seen aizens capabilities coming a mile away and should in theory have prevented that scenario from ever happening if it is as potent as described in this thread


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> He doesn't explicitly know that KS is out there, that's why he decided to ge rid of it afterwards. Anyway Yhwach warps based on what he can see. Since he can't see accurately what KS is presenting, then it proves an inconvenience. It's a weakness. It doesn't disprove his capabilities


how? dudes been alive for how many years? none of his sternritter knew nothing?

almighty couldn’t have used uryuu to see its capabilities?

aizen made a mess of everything prior to yhwachs arrival. hard for me to believe he didn’t know about KS

again, way to many holes in it but at this point we all agree yamcha plays frisbee with yhwach till he gets bored so the threads pretty much over with


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## Adamant soul (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> Im arguing the point of ywach knowing kyoka suigetsu is out there and not just warping to be immune to it seeing as the almighty supposedly is the top of the food chain in that verse
> 
> hilarious that you thought that’s what I meant though



Okay, in the first place Yhwach's ability is "future manipulation" not reality warping.

Yhwach would (if he saw the illusion in advance) be able to do things like break Kyouka Suigetsu before Aizen could release it or see where Aizen was going to be and attack him while ignoring the illusion.

He can't just "make himself immune to illusions" because that's not how his power works. 

And a legit reality warper wouldn't be able to do that either unless they had the feats for it. Straight up making yourself immune to shit is not a standard ability for reality warpers.


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Bobybobster said:


> "I rewrite the future". Do you see the action?


It's not a physical action. Yhwach doesn't need speed or time. It's illogical because he experiences infinite lives and rewrites them in an instant. Are you going to try to quantify the years per second experienced or...?



> As for his death, he had time to rewrite that after being stabbed and before turning to goo.


If he did, he wouldn't have died and turned to goo. "I can rewrite the futures in which I have died," not "I can rewrite the futures in which I am going to die."


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

Adamant soul said:


> Okay, in the first place *Yhwach's ability is* "future manipulation" *not reality warping.*
> 
> .





Source of Hate said:


> Not so because you're arguing that the character has arbitrary resistance *to* *reality warping* just because he has a higher physical defense compared to Yhwach


7 pages of this shit and we still don’t know what almighty actually does


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> 7 pages of this shit and we still don’t know what almighty actually does


Dude, labels. Does "future warping" sound better?


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> how? dudes been alive for how many years? none of his sternritter knew nothing?
> 
> almighty couldn’t have used uryuu to see its capabilities?
> 
> ...


I'm going to go with Yhwach rewrites Yamcha gone. If the OBD is so insistent on shown tendencies in the manga then Yhwach may drain him of his energy or decide any other convenient outcome he can find in an infinite pool of possibilities.


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 18, 2019)

>sourceofhate unironically arguing yeehaw can't be blitzed

Bleachtards, not even once.

@Masterblack06 

It's clear nearly everyone besides the bleachtards agree Yamcha stomps and this thread is getting derailed by the nonsensical ramblings of how almighty even works so can we put an end to this farce?

Reactions: Winner 1 | Neutral 1


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

NostalgiaFan said:


> >sourceofhate unironically arguing yeehaw can't be blitzed.


And nobody refuting it. Not posting constructively is against the rules

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OtherGalaxy (Sep 18, 2019)

may as well just let it get hashed out in this thread or somebody just Meta it


We have over 100 pages in a few months of Almighty debates, we need to just sort it out so threads don't keep devolving into these wormholes


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## wowfel (Sep 18, 2019)

He could theoretically kill Yamcha by rewriting his future and killing him through a sickness or age.

Reactions: MAXIMUM 1


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## Bobybobster (Sep 18, 2019)

Bobybobster said:


> 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4
> 
> You are at 1, the present. From there you go to 2 -> 3 -> 4. Yhwach decides he doesn't like 4, so whilst we are still at 1 (the present) he edits the 4 and rewrites it as a 5. So now it becomes:
> 
> ...



@OtherGalaxy 

Also it seems this hate guy is too far gone, so adios.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

wowfel said:


> He could theoretically kill Yamcha by rewriting his future and killing him through a sickness or age.


It doesn't have to be a technical use of the Almighty because Yamcha has no resistance feats against reality warping or causality manipulation.

Reactions: Like 1


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## OtherGalaxy (Sep 18, 2019)

The jist of it makes enough sense, but every single Yeehaw thread falls apart because of where people stand on how he finally died pretty much. Plot Arrow vs Hashbrowns betraying him vs Kyouka Suigetsu even working at all etc etc

So you end up with arguments about its limits and how much cis played into it that go on for days

I don't even read Bleach so I can't say whether any one interpretation is right, I'm just interested in Yeehaw's limits being defined for the sake of it

Reactions: Like 2


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## wowfel (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> It doesn't have to be a technical use of the Almighty because Yamcha has no resistance feats against reality warping or causality manipulation.


Thats true, his ability is to take an action that has a chance of occurring in the future and applying it in the present. Ywach falling for Kyoka Suigetsu doesn't really change the fact, that he could still take a future in which yamcha dies and use the almighty to kill him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Huxbolex (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> Those abilities and the circumstances in which they were executed were capable of circumventing the Almighty. They are not a counter-example to the claim that Yhwach can rewrite the futures however he wants.
> 
> When the Almighty was introduced, this is what was stated: it sees the future, and every power that he sees, he immediately understands, and it becomes unable to harm him.
> 
> Antithesis and KS under the right circumstances work against Yhwach because the Almighty either can't see it, or can't see it accurately. Just like it also can't see another Almighty user like the Soul King or Mimihagi


>Yhwach can see the future and nullify every power he sees
>Yhwach can't see or nullify Antithesis and KS "under the right circumstances"

Pick one.


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## Masterblack06 (Sep 18, 2019)

Alright so here's what I'm gonna do. I'm going to make the meta thread for yall to actually talk about how the almighty works. I will police that thing like it's a donut shop. Anyone brings it up in another thread to talk about how it works, you direct them to the meta thread. 

This is getting ridiculous at this point to be honest

Reactions: Like 5


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

wowfel said:


> Thats true, his ability is to take an action that has a chance of occurring in the future and applying it in the present. Ywach falling for Kyoka Suigetsu doesn't really change the fact, that he could still take a future in which yamcha dies and use the almighty to kill him.


Remember Yhwach was reconceptualized as a black ant by Ichibei before the Almighty activated. From that point in time, it should have been impossible for him to "evade" this renaming because it had already happened. And Yhwach still rewrote himself free of the effects; of the black ink; of Ichigo's Bankai(something that was too powerful for him to overcome with his own power); of his death(after it happened).


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Huxbolex said:


> >Yhwach can see the future and nullify every power he sees
> >Yhwach can't see or nullify Antithesis and KS "under the right circumstances"
> 
> Pick one.


They're both the same. He can't see those two powers in the future


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## wowfel (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> Remember Yhwach was reconceptualized as a black ant by Ichibei before the Almighty activated. From that point in time, it should have been impossible for him to "evade" this renaming because it had already happened. And Yhwach still rewrote himself free of the effects; of the black ink; of Ichigo's Bankai(something that was too powerful for him to overcome with his own power); of his death(after it happened).


If anything either Ywach wins or it's a stalemate since he can revive himself over and over.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

wowfel said:


> If anything either Ywach wins or it's a stalemate since he can revive himself over and over.


Or Yamcha eventually loses in endurance


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## Huxbolex (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> They're both the same. He can't see those two powers in the future


And why is Yhwach spontaneously incapable of seeing those two things, when coming from your description, he should have been able to see *everything*?


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Huxbolex said:


> And why is Yhwach spontaneously incapable of seeing those two things, when coming from your description, he should have been able to see *everything*?


Did I say he sees everything? I shouldn't have because all this time I've been arguing that he couldn't see Uryu or KS accurately through his precognition


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

OtherGalaxy said:


> The jist of it makes enough sense, but every single Yeehaw thread falls apart because of where people stand on how he finally died pretty much. Plot Arrow vs Hashbrowns betraying him vs Kyouka Suigetsu even working at all etc etc
> 
> So you end up with arguments about its limits and how much cis played into it that go on for days
> 
> I don't even read Bleach so I can't say whether any one interpretation is right, I'm just interested in Yeehaw's limits being defined for the sake of it


I have a problem with this. Not you specifically but people debating about a series they haven't personally watched. It would be simpler if you read it and offered your input. Otherwise just how genuine have all these Yhwach threads been to begin with? What exactly is the basis of all the arguments against Yhwach?


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## NostalgiaFan (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> And nobody refuting it. Not posting constructively is against the rules


Bitch please you were arguing Yeehaw could overcome it and you are jerking off the Almighty to be able to win this, get your head out of your ass.

And "not posting constructively" is hypocritical coming from the ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) who started out in this thread talking shit and trying to pretentiously talk down to us with pompous self praise and outright lies like us somehow thinking emoquirre is the strongest Espade or some shit. Knock it off with that holler than thou spiel.

Reactions: MAXIMUM 1


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## OtherGalaxy (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> I have a problem with this. Not you specifically but people debating about a series they haven't personally watched. It would be simpler if you read it and offered your input. Otherwise just how genuine have all these Yhwach threads been to begin with? What exactly is the basis of all the arguments against Yhwach?



In my case, only Yhwach threads I made were pretty much to learn about the character, I did eventually read the ending but was informed by Bleachfans here there is basically other shit I wasn't getting based on earlier arcs etc.

The issue in these threads isn't so much how Almighty works but where it ends. No-one, Bleachfans included, has been able to come to a conclusion about the limitations. So we end up with the same dance every thread, which is also probably why they keep being made to begin with.


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## Kurou (Sep 18, 2019)

wowfel said:


> Thats true, his ability is to take an action that has a chance of occurring in the future and applying it in the present. Ywach falling for Kyoka Suigetsu doesn't really change the fact, that he could still take a future in which yamcha dies and use the almighty to kill him.




Unless Yhwach is definitevely planet level he isnt tickling Yamcha much less killing him. It doesnt matter what future it is if in none of them he cant actually harm yamcha

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kurou (Sep 18, 2019)

OtherGalaxy said:


> In my case, only Yhwach threads I made were pretty much to learn about the character, I did eventually read the ending but was informed by Bleachfans here there is basically other shit I wasn't getting based on earlier arcs etc.
> 
> The issue in these threads isn't so much how Almighty works but where it ends. No-one, Bleachfans included, has been able to come to a conclusion about the limitations. So we end up with the same dance every thread, which is also probably why they keep being made to begin with.




As was stated in this very thread earlier we only apply his powerset to the strongest thing its worked on. 

Thats how its always fucking been. But for some reason people keep humoring these drooling baboons and the bleach wank. It doesnt work on anything above Ichigo's paygrade. Full stop. This shouldnt be something that gets brought up this often but it does because people wont just ignore these dumbasses

Reactions: Like 1


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

OtherGalaxy said:


> In my case, only Yhwach threads I made were pretty much to learn about the character, I did eventually read the ending but was informed by Bleachfans here there is basically other shit I wasn't getting based on earlier arcs etc.
> 
> The issue in these threads isn't so much how Almighty works but where it ends. No-one, Bleachfans included, has been able to come to a conclusion about the limitations. So we end up with the same dance every thread, which is also probably why they keep being made to begin with.


If you don't really have an interest for the series, what motivates you to participate in topics regarding it?


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## Kurou (Sep 18, 2019)

Its amazing that the quality of debate has fallen so low that we have to reiterate shit thats been around since before I even joined. In the past the guys would have just been laughed at and the section would continue on. But now because pekple wont just ignore them you give a legitimacy to their argument that they dont actually have. 


I havent been to the meta thread but I bet its full of going around in circles just like this thread


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Kurou said:


> Unless Yhwach is definitevely planet level he isnt tickling Yamcha much less killing him. It doesnt matter what future it is if in none of them he cant actually harm yamcha


Yhwach is not limited to possibilities. Yamcha does not have resistance feats to causality manipulation. I will not agree to holding an arbitrary and irrelevant attribute over another for no reason


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## Kurou (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> If you don't really have an interest for the series, what motivates you to participate in topics regarding it?




You dont have to be interested in both series in a thread to participate


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## Juan (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> I will not agree to holding an arbitrary and irrelevant attribute over another for no reason


good thing your opinion means shit and isn't taken seriously by anyone with a triple digit iq.


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## Kurou (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> Yhwach is not limited to possibilities. Yamcha does not have resistance feats to causality manipulation. I will not agree to holding an arbitrary and irrelevant attribute over another for no reason




See like this guy?


This and the other post are the only posts he's getting out of me. Its that easy to ignore these cunts

Reactions: Like 1


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

Kurou said:


> You dont have to be interested in both series in a thread to participate


Then maybe its just me


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## OtherGalaxy (Sep 18, 2019)

Source of Hate said:


> If you don't really have an interest for the series, what motivates you to participate in topics regarding it?



more or less seeing how other powers/characters interact with his in this case

and also because Almighty's been a giant gray area in OBD so I'd just like to know what's up

As far as limits and causality go, there's still the discrepancy of him being able to revive himself vs any of the shit in that ending at all. If he/Almighty were truly acausal, the Silver Arrow shouldn't have even mattered to begin with


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## OtherGalaxy (Sep 18, 2019)

Kurou said:


> See like this guy?
> 
> 
> This and the other post are the only posts he's getting out of me. Its that easy to ignore these cunts



I mean

I pretty much only come to this place to fuck around so whatever chaos ensues is just added entertainment value to me


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## Kurou (Sep 18, 2019)

OtherGalaxy said:


> I mean
> 
> I pretty much only come to this place to fuck around so whatever chaos ensues is just added entertainment value to me




Thats pretty much me as well and I think a lot of the older peeps but its still fucking sad watching a place slowly deteriorate into madness as it slowly becomes that which we swore to slay *cough vsb cough*


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## Source of Hate (Sep 18, 2019)

OtherGalaxy said:


> more or less seeing how other powers/characters interact with his in this case
> 
> and also because Almighty's been a giant gray area in OBD so I'd just like to know what's up


Okay, I see the appeal



> As far as limits and causality go, there's still the discrepancy of him being able to revive himself vs any of the shit in that ending at all. If he/Almighty were truly acausal, the Silver Arrow shouldn't have even mattered to begin with


The person that shot the arrow has an ability that makes him invisible to the Almighty's precognition. The Almighty can't alter what it can't see.

The arrow is basically made from remnants of Yhwach's power, and it had the ability to remove Yhwach's abilities for a short moment. It's the Deus ex machina within a Deus ex machina


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## Masterblack06 (Sep 18, 2019)

Alright heres your thread. As of this point, if people continue to discuss how the almighty works outside of the meta thread im just gonna thread ban you from the thread.

Reactions: Like 3


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## MShadows (Sep 18, 2019)

What’s next?

Yhwach vs Jiren? Does he also write Jiren out of existence in the 1/100000 of a second he has before he’s turned into mashed potatoes?


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## accountmaker (Sep 18, 2019)

Why didn't Freeza just blow up the earth? Why didn't Goku instant transmission to Freeza's ship and wreck him?

This thread went from a friendly vs debate to a he said she said about a hax ability that, in either scenario, ignores conventional durability.

If The Almighty allows the user to see all possible futures and replace the "current" one with one of the near infinite possible alternatives a la Rick and Morty, Yamcha gets cucked. 

If the All Mighty allows the user to see all possible futures, but only lets them physically interact with them (i.e, Yhwach was able to break Ichigo's sword because he personally went to a future where Ichigo was weaker, and physically broke the sword himself) then Yhwach gets a front row seat of all the ways Yamcha mangles him before settling on his least painful death. 

We can't reach a conclusion unless we can get a clear grasp on what exactly All Mighty's power entails when it says "can change the future".

For anyone arguing durability, you're wrong unless this statement gets retconned by the author. Yhwach not Dark Soulsing the main cast on sight is a clear example of PIS and CIS, and poor planning on Kubo's part. No, durability has nothing to do with the All Mighty even if it's just a lame version of time travel.


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Sep 18, 2019)

accountmaker said:


> Why didn't Freeza just blow up the earth? Why didn't Goku instant transmission to Freeza's ship and wreck him?
> 
> This thread went from a friendly vs debate to a he said she said about a hax ability that, in either scenario, ignores conventional durability.
> 
> ...


Go into the meta thread we done here


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## accountmaker (Sep 18, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> Go into the meta thread we done here


Ahh thank you


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## BossKitten (Sep 19, 2019)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> since reality itself receives priority over something as simple as perception



It's funny because there is a phrase that says "perception is reality". Take 10 people with 10 different backgrounds/upbringings, have them all experience the same event, and they'll all have a different perception of what happened, even if the end result is the same. In other words, what you perceive to be reality is your reality.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Sep 19, 2019)

@Masterblack06 move that into the other thread


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## Nighty the Mighty (Sep 19, 2019)

that's what you get for locking it while i was halfway through


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 19, 2019)

Barking orders at current mods...

Any way, is there a legitimate, honest, critical reason for why this thread reached 13 pages? I was wonder the impression even Radditz could smoke the entire bleachverse like a blunt much less someone who should be decently stronger?


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## Claudio Swiss (Sep 19, 2019)

Just fucking lock this thread already


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