# Goddess Madoka and Devil Homura vs Black Goku and Future Zamasu



## saint rider 890 (Nov 11, 2016)

VS


Speed Unqual.
Both of them Bloodlusted.
PIS/CIS not allowed. 
Location: Soul Society.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Montanz (Nov 11, 2016)

Madoka is a multiversal concept, she can't really be hurt by them.
Homura is at least an universal RW so there's that.


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## Solar (Nov 11, 2016)

Madoka and Nomura exist outside of space-time iirc. At least Madoka does. Don't believe the DB side can even affect them. It's a stalemate at worst for the goddess and demon.


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## Agent9149 (Nov 11, 2016)

Madoka became a universal concept. What are they going to do here?


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## saint rider 890 (Nov 11, 2016)

Just how fast Madoka and Homura ?


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## trance (Nov 11, 2016)

Montanz said:


> *Madoka is a multiversal concept*, she can't really be hurt by them.
> Homura is at least an universal RW so there's that.



wait, wut

Last I checked, Madoka was universal same as Akuma Homura, just a higher level of universal


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## Montanz (Nov 11, 2016)

Kyouko said:


> wait, wut
> 
> Last I checked, Madoka was universal same as Akuma Homura, just a higher level of universal



depends on how you interpret multiverse-level
madoka exists across all timelines and according to secondary materials and WoG (but I'm not too sure about that) they're separate from eachother.


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## Solar (Nov 11, 2016)

saint rider 890 said:


> Just how fast Madoka and Homura ?



Not too fast. Current attack speed in the thousands of c, but re-calcs can upgrade that to mftl.


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## Solar (Nov 11, 2016)

Homura warping the universe is definitely in the quadrillions of c, though.


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## Montanz (Nov 11, 2016)

They were MHS last I checked based on some bullet blitzing feats that seem legit but that's before they got universal level powerups

Madoka is allegedly omnipresent and her arrows cross time-space so it's unmeasurable

Homura is unknown as she doesn't really fight, but her influence spread across the universe in seconds.


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## dubledolix09 (Feb 19, 2017)

And don't forget that Homura erased Madoka of her memories at the of the Rebellion movie, as well as took away her godly abilities. Neither Zamasu nor Goku Black has ever shown any resistance or immunity to either of these abilities. All Homura had to is erase their memories to the point where they are brainless vegetables and kill them while they are vulnerable.


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## Blade (Feb 19, 2017)

SSJR Black swings his scythe and summons his non ending Black clones


then he swing his scythe again


good game


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## Blade (Feb 19, 2017)

Future Zamasu pukes at the idea of even losing to them


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 19, 2017)

Black impales them with his bubblegum hair

Reactions: Like 2


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## Fang (Feb 19, 2017)

>Megami Madoka
>multiversal

Hell to the no

Reactions: Like 5 | Disagree 1


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## Hit The Badass (Sep 12, 2017)

Multiversal entities vs universal guys with almost  zero hax?

Any one of them solos Db verse including Zeno


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 13, 2017)

Madoka isn't multiversal and has no resistance to Black's ki scythes. Combine that with her low speed and it's obvious Black and Zamasu stomp.


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## Imagine (Sep 13, 2017)

@Nighty the Mighty


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## trance (Sep 13, 2017)

>low speed

Goddess Madoka and Akuma Homura are trillions/quadrillions of times _c _


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## Imagine (Sep 13, 2017)

Don't bother. He loves him some DBS and is willing to say anything to favor them regardless of how dumb it may sound.


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## Irradiance (Sep 13, 2017)

Not sure about the fight in total, but isn't Madoka a non-factor here?
From what I remember she couldn't really wield her powers freely. Reason being that she wished to destroy all witches before they are created, not to become a goddess.
It didn't seem like she could freely make herself exist again to interact with people, for example. I don't think she could actually use her powers for something, that doesn't somehow related to fulfilling the wish for which she got them.
So, with neither of her opponents being witches, isn't she bound to just be an observer?


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## Solar (Sep 13, 2017)

Irradiance said:


> Not sure about the fight in total, but isn't Madoka a non-factor here?
> From what I remember she couldn't really wield her powers freely. Reason being that she wished to destroy all witches before they are created, not to become a goddess.
> It didn't seem like she could freely make herself exist again to interact with people, for example. I don't think she could actually use her powers for something, that doesn't somehow related to fulfilling the wish for which she got them.
> So, with neither of her opponents being witches, isn't she bound to just be an observer?


We ignore it for the purpose of the match.


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 13, 2017)

kyouko said:


> >low speed
> 
> Goddess Madoka and Akuma Homura are trillions/quadrillions of times _c _



Any proof? And Black is also in the quadrillions


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## trance (Sep 13, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> Any proof?



that's about how fast Homura warped the universe?


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## Gordo solos (Sep 13, 2017)

Hit The Badass said:


> Multiversal entities vs universal guys with almost  zero hax?
> 
> Any one of them solos Db verse including Zeno


You know better than to necro this


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## Kurou (Sep 13, 2017)

kyouko said:


> that's about how fast Homura warped the universe?



Great evidence


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## trance (Sep 13, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Great evidence


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## Solar (Sep 13, 2017)

kyouko said:


> that's about how fast Homura warped the universe?


That was quintillions, actually.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Hit The Badass (Sep 13, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> You know better than to necro this


These guys were lowballing Homaru and Madoka to universe level when they are multiverse level


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## Imagine (Sep 13, 2017)

The consensus for the thread has long since been reached. Try not to post in threads that are months old.


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## Hit The Badass (Sep 13, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> No.


Explain bruh


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## trance (Sep 13, 2017)

Hit The Badass said:


> These guys were lowballing Homaru and Madoka to universe level when they are multiverse level



i think the argument for multiversal pmmm came from madoka affecting multiple timelines of the same universe or some shit like that but i'm not sure how well that holds up


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 13, 2017)

Hit The Badass said:


> Explain bruh



I don't think there's enough evidence of this.

Only saw posts of Madoka being able to control every witch in the space-time continuum and here we do indeed equalize verses but still.

Goku Black breaks her with his ki scythes.


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## Hit The Badass (Sep 13, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> I don't think there's enough evidence of this.
> 
> Only saw posts of Madoka being able to control every witch in* the universe* and here we do indeed equalize verses but still.
> 
> Goku Black breaks her with his ki scythes.


Nope. She wished in every universe aka multiple universe.

Here she asked her wish in every universe and every timeline aka multiverse level:



Here it is confirmed that there are infinite no of universe and timelines in Madoka verse so that makes her high multiversal level:

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Nep Heart (Sep 13, 2017)

Well, damn... I guess that is proof that timeline = universe in Madoka.


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## Agent9149 (Sep 13, 2017)

Another multiversal magical girl I see.


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## Solar (Sep 13, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Well, damn... I guess that is proof that timeline = universe in Madoka.


But that one was always the case.


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## Nep Heart (Sep 13, 2017)

Haruhi Suzumiya said:


> But that one was always the case.



 Presuming timeline = universe by default? Not at all. Timelines aren't always consistently universes and there are quite a lot of cases in fiction where they aren't. A *really* good example is in Doctor Who, the word "timeline" is interchangeable with either an entire universe or the personal timestream of a person, object or location... and this is a 'verse with some occasional megaverse level shit, but context of what the word "timeline" is being used would still be important to determine a feat. Another example I keep bringing up is that we have at least four examples of characters in Touhou manipulating entire timelines, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're universe level because there is no evidence that these timelines are universes. It's just cases like Madoka where it seems they do equate to universes because they're outright stated as such as the evidence that @Hit The Badass just posted.

 I think I've ranted about this multiple times at other threads.


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## Solar (Sep 13, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Presuming timeline = universe by default? Not at all. Timelines aren't always consistently universes and there are quite a lot of cases in fiction where they aren't. A *really* good example is in Doctor Who, the word "timeline" is interchangeable with either an entire universe or the personal timestream of a person, object or location... and this is a 'verse with some occasional megaverse level shit, but context of what the word "timeline" is being used would still be important to determine a feat. Another example I keep bringing up is that we have at least four examples of characters in Touhou manipulating entire timelines, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're universe level because there is no evidence that these timelines are universes. It's just cases like Madoka where it seems they do equate to universes because they're outright stated as such as the evidence that @Hit The Badass just posted.
> 
> I think I've ranted about this multiple times at other threads.



In my experience, I've found that timelines equated to universes far more often than them being arbritrarily smaller. 

But anyway, whenever Homura reset the timeline, it was pretty clear that she reset more than just the time of planet is more what I meant.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Nep Heart (Sep 13, 2017)

Haruhi Suzumiya said:


> In my experience, I've found that timelines equated to universes far more often than them being arbritrarily smaller.
> 
> But anyway, whenever Homura reset the timeline, it was pretty clear that she reset more than just the time of planet is more what I meant.



 I guess it's time to update those Madoka god tier profiles either way.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 13, 2017)

Not to mention the fact that Homura is creating alternate worlds all centered around Madoka due to her fucking with the timestream. timeline might not = universe, but Homura rewinding time to change the past and creating a fuck ton of parallel worlds supports that they do in this case.


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## Solar (Sep 13, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> I guess it's time to update those Madoka god tier profiles either way.


But this just seems like multiversal range.  

Or is the argument that her imposing the new concept she embodies on every timeline enough to make her multiverse level. I suppose that is why she is already universe level.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 13, 2017)

Haruhi Suzumiya said:


> But this just seems like multiversal range.
> 
> Or is the argument that her imposing the new concept she embodies on every timeline enough to make her multiverse level. I suppose that is why she is already universe level.


Well she reset an entire universe on screen, and considering that was probably only from the witches in that world? She couldve reset a lot more


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## Nep Heart (Sep 13, 2017)

Haruhi Suzumiya said:


> But this just seems like multiversal range.
> 
> Or is the argument that her imposing the new concept she embodies on every timeline enough to make her multiverse level. I suppose that is why she is already universe level.



 Dunno, if she's flat out rewriting each individual universe simultaneously, that's very likely multiverse level to whatever degree the feat in question reaches. We've applied that to reality warpers, spatial manipulators, temporal manipulators and whatnot applying their powers on a multiversal scale before, this is likely no different since you still need to mess around with the fabric of all those realities to begin with. How many parallel timelines are there in Madoka anyway?


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## Hit The Badass (Sep 13, 2017)

Haruhi Suzumiya said:


> But this just seems like multiversal range.
> 
> Or is the argument that her imposing the new concept she embodies on every timeline enough to make her multiverse level. I suppose that is why she is already universe level.


Well she did said she breaks any rule in her way in every universe and timeline.

So that's multiversal imo


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## Solar (Sep 13, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Well she reset an entire universe on screen, and considering that was probably only from the witches in that world? She couldve reset a lot more



Perhaps. It would certainly be more likely that way since there's no reason to assume otherwise.



Ampchu said:


> Dunno, if she's flat out rewriting each individual universe simultaneously, that's very likely multiverse level to whatever degree the feat in question reaches. We've applied that to reality warpers, spatial manipulators, temporal manipulators and whatnot applying their powers on a multiversal scale before, this is likely no different since you still need to mess around with the fabric of all those realities to begin with. How many parallel timelines are there in Madoka anyway?



Well, the above picture is from the _Homura Tomura_ manga, I believe. It's a comedy manga whose canonicity might be suspect from what I know of it. I never read it myself, though. Urobuchi confirmed in an interview that Homura has gone through at least/about 100 timelines, but it could be more.


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## Nep Heart (Sep 13, 2017)

Haruhi Suzumiya said:


> Urobuchi confirmed in an interview that Homura has gone through *at least/about 100 timelines*, but it could be more.





Hit The Badass said:


> Infinite



Welp, there you have it. That's already well-above the entirety of DBS. This match is a pretty damn thorough stomp in the Magical Girls' favor for sure.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Hit The Badass (Sep 13, 2017)

So who is going to update their profiles?


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## Solar (Sep 13, 2017)

If after a few days it still stands unchallenged, I will change it.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 13, 2017)

Well you can take it up with @Fang and @God Movement as they probably know a lot more about Madoka but to me those scans are enough proof for at least universe level+, not sure if multiversal though since the scans make me understand she is able to control the fate of every witch in every universe, but not sure whether she has FULL control of every universe so yeah.

From what I've seen of Madoka it's like Sailor Moon in the sense that it's all bark and no bite. I've seen ZERO feats of multiversal Madoka.

And even if Madoka was multiversal, Black would still have options to take her out.

But I haven't read/watched Madoka, so...


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## Hit The Badass (Sep 13, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> Well you can take it up with @Fang and @God Movement as they probably know a lot more about Madoka but to me those scans are enough proof for at least universe level+, not sure if multiversal though since the scans make me understand she is able to control the fate of every witch in every universe, but not sure whether she has FULL control of every universe so yeah.
> 
> From what I've seen of Madoka it's like Sailor Moon in the sense that it's all bark and no bite. I've seen ZERO feats of multiversal Madoka.
> 
> ...


Bruh she can rewrite the concepts of multiverse itself and travel to any timeline in any period. She will simply rewrite that concept of immortality and ki doesn't accept for Zamasu or Black OR simply erase the concept of saiyans and kais.

None of them have any answer to conceptual and time manipulation.


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## Bad Wolf (Sep 13, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> From what I've seen of Madoka





Ferrothorn said:


> But I haven't read/watched Madoka, so...


What.

Anyway Madoka is a weird case for her becoming a rule only for the witches (but she still have other powers), but she's clearly in the multiversal range


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## Alita (Sep 14, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> Any proof? And Black is also in the quadrillions


 I thought DBS characters were in the billions of times light speed. What calc made them in the quadrillions?


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## Bad Wolf (Sep 14, 2017)

A scaling from beerus


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## Nep Heart (Sep 14, 2017)

Quite sure the 200 quadrillion c calc was from Vados, which scales to all Angels, whom Gods of Destruction such as Beerus were explicitly stated to scale a fraction of in-setting... but I doubt that anything below G.o.D. tier would benefit from that kind of scaling.


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## Bad Wolf (Sep 14, 2017)

There's even a low quadrilion feat for Beerus and Whis, at the beginning of Super, from which people scale ssjg and above. Without that I don't think there's even a feat remotely near for that tier.

Nope, I'm wrong, that's where the billions, don't know the quadrilion


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

Black is in the mid-quadrillions (maybe over 100) range last time I checked... Beerus is 3/4 the speed of Whis and Vados I think, so 150 quadrillions (?), and Goku could keep up with him.


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## Bad Wolf (Sep 14, 2017)

You can't really do that.


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## Kurou (Sep 14, 2017)

3/4 the speed of Whis?

Thats oddly specific. This was mentioned where?


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

Kurou said:


> 3/4 the speed of Whis?
> 
> Thats oddly specific. This was mentioned where?



he flew to a planet at 3/4th the speed of Whis in episode 2


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## Imagine (Sep 14, 2017)

Translation: 

It wasn't mentioned.


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## Imagine (Sep 14, 2017)

@ChaosTheory123

One wall level/faster than the eye can see DBS please


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## SirTorch (Sep 14, 2017)

I think team 1 takes it due to Madoka. She's like Multiverse+ level.


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

Imagine said:


> Translation:
> 
> It wasn't mentioned.



yes it was


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## The Runner (Sep 14, 2017)

Wasn't the distance of the planet unspecified or some shit?


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## Hamaru (Sep 14, 2017)

This is a stomp for the magical girls. 

And Future Trunks, and then we'd have a fight.


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

I've still seen no feats of this so-called multiversal Madoka. Black beats her with his space and time-breaking ki scythes


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## TYPE-Rey (Sep 14, 2017)

How the fuck do you beat a conceptual being with space and time breaking anything ?


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## Orochibuto (Sep 14, 2017)

Zamasu is only that strong thanks to Super Shenron.

Madoks reverts Shenron's wishes, problem solved.


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## SnowFlame (Sep 14, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> I've still seen no feats of this so-called multiversal Madoka. Black beats her with his space and time-breaking ki scythes



Madoka's wish was to get rid of witches in every universe, she does this by changing the laws of the universe and resetting it. In order to get rid of witches in every universe she would have to reset the entire multiverse and that makes her multiversal.


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## Nep Heart (Sep 14, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> I've still seen no feats of this so-called multiversal Madoka. Black beats her with his space and time-breaking ki scythes



Get better glasses, there was literal evidence in your face several posts ago flat out mentioning entire universes with a plural being rewritten.


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## Orochibuto (Sep 14, 2017)

Lets put it this way: Zamasu wish to Super Shenron, Super Shenron wish to Zarama, Zarama wish to Madoka.


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## Agent9149 (Sep 14, 2017)

Orochibuto said:


> Lets put it this way: Zamasu wish to Super Shenron, Super Shenron wish to Zarama, Zarama wish to Madoka.



maybe zamasu should have wished to make all the ningen go away like how Madoka wished to make the witches go away.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Nep Heart (Sep 14, 2017)

It's getting really tiring at this point. Almost every goddamn thread with a high post count involving DBS almost always involves the wankers of said series downplaying the side that DBS is up against by always denying that their feats exist when, let's be real here... nobody in DBS has universe level feats besides Zeno, all that universal scaling has only been implied thus far. We've seen it in that Dracula vs Beerus thread, we've seen in in Hit vs PC Superman, we've seen in numerous DBS vs Saint Seiya match-ups, we've seen it in that Goku Black and Zamasu vs STTGL thread and we're seeing it here too. From now on, anytime someone downplays the other side and denies feats, I'll be pointing out that nobody but Zeno has universe level feats to begin with.

 Wankers should consider themselves lucky that those implications without feats were accepted at all.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Sep 14, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> It's getting really tiring at this point. Almost every goddamn thread with a high post count involving DBS almost always involves the wankers of said series downplaying the side that DBS is up against by always denying that their feats exist when, let's be real here... nobody in DBS has universe level feats besides Zeno, all that universal scaling has only been implied thus far. We've seen it in that Dracula vs Beerus thread, we've seen in in Hit vs PC Superman, we've seen in numerous DBS vs Saint Seiya match-ups, we've seen it in that Goku Black and Zamasu vs STTGL thread and we're seeing it here too. From now on, anytime someone downplays the other side and denies feats, I'll be pointing out that nobody but Zeno has universe level feats to begin with.
> 
> Wankers should consider themselves lucky that those implications without feats were accepted at all.


Happened in PC Plas vs DBS as well though @xenos5 was a champ and didn't downplay, he just wanted some solid standing which is reasonable. Worldbreaker on the other hand did downplay and obfuscate needlessly.

It's funnier because reading the Golden Age stuff, Plas actually has even more hax and heat resistance so

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 14, 2017)

Imagine said:


> @ChaosTheory123
> 
> One wall level/faster than the eye can see DBS please



Seriously

I don't seem to get half these notifications 

The rise of conservation of energy and subsonic DB is nigh

As we change our variant of the international prototype kilogram, so too do all verses that follow it die

The real world's time is now, all hail the murican military~

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Orochibuto (Sep 14, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> It's getting really tiring at this point. Almost every goddamn thread with a high post count involving DBS almost always involves the wankers of said series downplaying the side that DBS is up against by always denying that their feats exist when, let's be real here... nobody in DBS has universe level feats besides Zeno, all that universal scaling has only been implied thus far. We've seen it in that Dracula vs Beerus thread, we've seen in in Hit vs PC Superman, we've seen in numerous DBS vs Saint Seiya match-ups, we've seen it in that Goku Black and Zamasu vs STTGL thread and we're seeing it here too. From now on, anytime someone downplays the other side and denies feats, I'll be pointing out that nobody but Zeno has universe level feats to begin with.
> 
> Wankers should consider themselves lucky that those implications without feats were accepted at all.



You dont have to be unreasonable to point the other side is unreasonable.

Feats dont need to exist on screen, they only need to exist.

Saying Zeno is the only universal in DBS is simply as bullshit as the side you are talking about.

You are basically saying "Because DB downplay other series! Im gonna downplay DB too!"

Which is not only petty and ridiculous, but will only cause neutral people to radicalize.

It is exactly this type of shit that caused the current DB wank you are seeing.

Basically in the early 2000s, DB wankers came, they were replied to in kind to the point that up until 2012 or so, the OBD was plagued with undeniable HEAVY anti-DB bias.

Now with the early OBD regulars leaving and Super arriving with new feats, those bias are being removed. And yes, of course this has led to the return of DBtards, which in part is thanks to backlash from the previous anti-DB bias. But it would be a mistake to repeat the response of the early 2000s, because this is the same shit repeating itself.

In short, you dont need to downplay the downplayers, just keep showing the feats.

Its a given Madoka wins here and there is nothing to be gained by placing yourself on the level of DBtards, this will only cause shitstorms and a pushback by the DB base, who unlike in the early 2000s, are not unarmed now.

I like DB, I dont like DBtards and neither a chunk of the DB base.


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## Nep Heart (Sep 14, 2017)

Orochibuto said:


> In short, you dont need to downplay the downplayers, just keep showing the feats.



 This wouldn't have been a problem if it weren't for the fact DBS wankers consistently downplayed in almost every goddamn thread because they know full-well that the other side is gonna win over their favorite series. You can literally spoon feed them all these feats and they're plug their ears and claim "I don't like it, never happened." As per example, these...



Ampchu said:


> We've seen it in that Dracula vs Beerus thread, we've seen in in Hit vs PC Superman, we've seen in numerous DBS vs Saint Seiya match-ups, we've seen it in that Goku Black and Zamasu vs STTGL thread and we're seeing it here too.



 Ironically, the DBS wankers downplaying an opposing series has actually seen them getting upgrades because people look for evidence and find overlooked feats that let's them surpass the DBS side at times. @MatthewSchroeder did say there may be low multiverse level feats for non-god tiers in Saint Seiya, perhaps it's that time to look into that too. Just saying, when it's happened way too much than it should, it's possible that those people just can't be reasoned with. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



... And really, you're not any better with this towards Saint Seiya as exhibited in the past, so... not really one to lecture me about that kind of thing there.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

>calling us dbs wankers
>when you guys use logic by which cell would be solar system level

OK.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Nep Heart (Sep 14, 2017)

Quite sure it had less to do with statements, but rather because Frieza's Supernova was not that far from solar system level to begin with until some faultiness was found in the calc, meaning everyone disregarded everything involved including solar system level Cell... but nice strawman there.


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## Blade (Sep 14, 2017)

@Ampchu


Cell is legit solar system levels

















in Toeiland

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Quite sure it had less to do with statements, but rather because Frieza's Supernova was not that far from solar system level to begin with until some faultiness was found in the calc, meaning everyone disregarded everything involved including solar system level Cell... but nice strawman there.



Strawman? Lolno.

So basically if it doesn't have to do with statements then you basically disproved multiversal Madoka I guess...? I only saw statements of this so far. No feats.


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## Nep Heart (Sep 14, 2017)

Blade said:


> @Ampchu
> 
> Cell is legit solar system levels
> 
> ...



 Of course, Toei loves to give all those upgrades to DB like free candy. Instant Transmission is also pure speed in Toeiland, never forget.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

I thought downplaying Dragon Ball and accepting similar cases of other less-known universes was a 2013 thing. Looks like it's starting to surface once again.


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## Blade (Sep 14, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Of course, Toei loves to give all those upgrades to DB like free candy. Instant Transmission is also pure speed in Toeiland, never forget.



GT/Z anime/Z movies = Toeiland >>>> pre-DBS canon version


never forget : ssj4gokuskully


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## Crimson Dragoon (Sep 14, 2017)

Blade said:


> GT/Z anime/Z movies = Toeiland >>>> pre-DBS canon version
> 
> 
> never forget : ssj4gokuskully

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Nep Heart (Sep 14, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> So basically if it doesn't have to do with statements then you basically disproved multiversal Madoka I guess...? I only saw statements of this so far. No feats.



 Yeah, Goddess Madoka literally rewriting every universe in the multiverse is definitely not a feat as opposed to the consistent insinuation that the universe was about to be that destroyed, but nobody ever actually does it. Not any better than those people who were downplaying in other threads whenever DBS was endangered of losing. Still going to have to call strawman on you simply for that Cell thing there by taking shit out of context. Heck, you're taking shit out of context here too.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Yeah, Goddess Madoka literally rewriting every universe in the multiverse is definitely not a feat as opposed to the consistent insinuation that the universe was about to be that destroyed, but nobody ever actually does it. Not any better than those people who were downplaying in other threads whenever DBS was endangered of losing. Still going to have to call strawman on you simply for that Cell thing there by taking shit out of context. Heck, you're taking shit out of context here too.



That's not a feat bro, that was just statements from what I saw, I want to see ACTUAL PROOF of Madoka being able to rewrite everything in the multiverse. 

Else Beerus is multiversal too because Whis stated he and Champa could destroy Universes 6 and 7 if they would fight. You are doing the exact opposite, downplaying DBS and wanking Madoka. If I am a DBS wanker, this is how you debate? By downplaying DBS and wanking the other verse? That will lead to a shitstorm inevitably


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## Blade (Sep 14, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Yeah, Goddess Madoka literally rewriting every universe in the multiverse is definitely not a feat as opposed to the consistent insinuation that the universe was about to be that destroyed, but nobody ever actually does it. Not any better than those people who were downplaying in other threads whenever DBS was endangered of losing. Still going to have to call strawman on you simply for that Cell thing there by taking shit out of context. Heck, you're taking shit out of context here too.



so, to summarize, how strong are those 2? (Madoka and Homura) :vegitobatman


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

Blade said:


> so, to summarize, how strong are those 2? (Madoka and Homura) :vegitobatman



By statements she would be multiverse level.

For me that's not enough, though.


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## Agent9149 (Sep 14, 2017)

Ferrothorn denying feats of magical girls again. What's new?

She literally wished to destroy all witches in every universe and became multiversal concept it's there in the scans and screen shots. You can't get anymore basic than that.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

Agent9149 said:


> Ferrothorn denying feats of magical girls again. What's new?



"I just find it quite strange that we can claim that Goku and company can affect spacetime on a universal level when they were useless against Moneyshot Zamasu and had to call Zeno."

no, totally not downplaying

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## SnowFlame (Sep 14, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> By statements she would be multiverse level.
> 
> For me that's not enough, though.



Black and Zamasu are only universal based on a statement so take that hypocritical shit elsewhere

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

SnowFlame said:


> Black and Zamasu are only universal based on a statement so take that hypocritical shit elsewhere



No, they're based on a statement and a feat. Where am I being hypocritical lol


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## SnowFlame (Sep 14, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> No, they're based on a statement and a feat. Where am I being hypocritical lol



I didn't know that they destroyed a universe on screen. Do you mind showing me this so called feat?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

SnowFlame said:


> I didn't know that they destroyed a universe on screen. Do you mind showing me this so called feat?



episode 12 bruh


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## SnowFlame (Sep 14, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> episode 12 bruh



Yeah the episode with no universe being destroyed only a statement that it would be.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

SnowFlame said:


> Yeah the episode with no universe being destroyed only a statement that it would be.



that's why their energy was felt through the whole universe? If Beerus didn't have power negation the universe would have ceased to exist.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Nep Heart (Sep 14, 2017)

Blade said:


> so, to summarize, how strong are those 2? (Madoka and Homura) :vegitobatman



Apparently no less than 100 universes as an absolute bare minimum if we want to reach extra hard with downplay on Goddess Medoka and Devil Homura, but very likely could be infinitely multiversal.

These were posted a page ago in the thread.


*Spoiler*: __ 









Also, there this for proof on them transcending linear time and becoming abstract cosmics.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Also, there this for proof on them transcending linear time and becoming abstract cosmics.



I saw those scans before as well. Weren't those instances just before the sequence where Madoka wants to erase all the witches?


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## SnowFlame (Sep 14, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> that's why their energy was felt through the whole universe? If Beerus didn't have power negation the universe would have ceased to exist.



There is only a statement that the universe would have been destroyed if Beerus didn't negate the energy, so again all you have is a statement, which according to you doesn't count. Show me proof the the universe would have been destroyed without using any statements.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Orochibuto (Sep 14, 2017)

I dont get the dismissal of Solar System Cell. Nobody contradicted him and he said it in the heat of the moment after gaining a massive power up.

If Toriyama included that line, it wasnt just for giggles.

And do note "I can destroy the Solar System" doesnt have to mean Cell can ki beam oneshot everything from Pluto to the Sun.

It can very well mean that at his absolute strongest attack he can destroy the Sun (and possibly not even by erasing it, but as a reaction making it go supernova) which would destroy the solar system.

It sounds way more reasonable to me than just saying "Cell was lying."


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## Agent9149 (Sep 14, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> I saw those scans before as well. Weren't those instances just before the sequence where Madoka wants to erase all the witches?



That came after her wish.



Ferrothorn said:


> "I just find it quite strange that we can claim that Goku and company can affect spacetime on a universal level when they were useless against Moneyshot Zamasu and had to call Zeno."
> 
> no, totally not downplaying



Yeah. I said that. And my question still stands.


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

SnowFlame said:


> There is only a statement that the universe would have been destroyed if Beerus didn't negate the energy, so again all you have is a statement, which according to you doesn't count. Show me proof the the universe would have been destroyed without using any statements.




0:57

The Kaioshin Realm is outside the universe btw


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## Orochibuto (Sep 14, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> By statements she would be multiverse level.
> 
> For me that's not enough, though.



Thats stupid as shit. Also it will come biting you and the overall DB base when they hit multiversal or above.

Statements are valid if they hold credibility and are not contradicted.

That "on screen or didnt happened" bullshit is stupid as fuck.

Because guess what? There is absolutely zero onscreen universal destruction outside of Zeno.

And also guess what, when they destroy an universe BOTH Zenos squish.

So by that stupid "on screen or it dusent countz!" standard, only 2 Zenos working together have show on screen destruction. It requires then 2 Zenos to destroy an universe.

All other universal stuff has not been shown, it has SUPPORTING feats which is not the same as the feat.

If we end up with biased anti-DB OBD again it will be, partly at least, the fault of DBtards like you. And I say this as someone who wants to see Goku breaking Hades's jaw in a thread.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

Orochibuto said:


> Thats stupid as shit. Also it will come biting you and the overall DB base when they hit multiversal or above.
> 
> Statements are valid if they hold credibility and are not contradicted.
> 
> ...



You guys are already doing it with solar system level Cell so...

That's right, we'll be bit so hard by Madoka being multiversal level. It doesn't matter for example that Attack on Titan and One Punch Man are generally seen better and have higher scores on IMBD, and that One Piece sells more than ever, destroying DBZ in this aspect... what matters is that Madoka is multiverse level. 

I'm noticing one more trend happening, on vswiki especially, and apparently it's starting to bleed here as well. If in DBS something happens, (e.g. Goku and Beerus being universe level), many other universes start getting wanked too, and most of these are accepted. If you oppose them, they'll suddenly ask you "But why in DBS...", "How come in DBS...", "How is Goku universal then", "why is Zeno considered multiversal" and so on.

No need to call me a DBtard. This is the second time it happens. Instead of you showing statements and feats that back them up, you only post statements and then throw shit at DBS saying "why does this apply to DBS and not my verse".

Listen. There are many things that stomp Goku and DBS. STTGL, Saint Seiya, Digimon, and even more broken verses like idk Umineko.


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## Orochibuto (Sep 14, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> You guys are already doing it with solar system level Cell so...



You guys?.....

You didnt saw my post literally in this page calling out on the bullshit of dismissing Cell's SS claim as "Lolz hyperbolze!"?



Ferrothorn said:


> No need to call me a DBtard. This is the second time it happens. Instead of you showing statements and feats that back them up, you only post statements and then throw shit at DBS saying "why does this apply to DBS and not my verse".



The feats have been shown: Madoka is conceptual and erased all witches from all universes.

Statements count, and are valid when credible and uncontradicted. Specially when statements about concrete feats.

This apply (or should) to ALL series and this includes Madoka and Dragon Ball.

If you want to push for a bullshit "screen or no feat" standard, Dragonball is going to come out losing, big time.

You are so thirsty to see Dragonball punching in the high tiers that you will not wait for the feats.

This is an ongoing series with good chances that Zeno is not even the ultimate level.

If you want to see DB defeating punching at this level, wait for the freaking feats. They might come. They might not, but at least its a better strategy than using a downplaying strategy that might very well take away those feats if they do come.

This is way better than downplaying and just dismissing it with "lolz it dusnt countz!"

Because guess what? If you push for this bullshit it will also be applied to DB.

And there is a very good shot that the top tier feats and levels are not going to be on screen visuals.


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## Nep Heart (Sep 14, 2017)

@Ferrothorn 

I don't think anyone was arguing for "omnipotent" Madoka to begin with. However, being outside of linear time kinda fucks over the DBS duo here since they have no counter against someone who negates any advantage of conventional speed even if it may not omnipresence anyway.


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

Orochibuto said:


> You guys?.....
> 
> You didnt saw my post literally in this page calling out on the bullshit of dismissing Cell's SS claim as "Lolz hyperbolze!"?
> 
> ...



read the above post.

The thing is what you're describing was already happening, except in a more unconventional way. Before DBS it was DB who was getting downplayed, while the other universes were analyzed neutrally. Now it's DBS who gets carefully and throughly analyzed and the other universes (many of which did not get any new installment) are getting wanked to high heaven.


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## SnowFlame (Sep 14, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> This is also entwined with another Fallacy, that Madoka reset the multiverse. This is wrong, her wish was actually that she would rid the multiverse of every witch.



Which resets the multiverse.



Ferrothorn said:


> While she affects the multiverse, she DOES NOT recreate the multiverse. She kills each witch and that changes the multiverse in a causal pattern. We know she can not recreate the multiverse at will because of the existence of the Demons that Puella Magi have to fight, and the continued suffering. This illustrates she can not recreate the multiverse in particullarly drastic ways.



He literally contradicts himself here. First saying that she can't recreate the multiverse, but then saying she can but not in a drastic way.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Orochibuto (Sep 14, 2017)

Ferrothorn said:


> read the above post.
> 
> The thing is what you're describing was already happening, except in a more unconventional way. Before DBS it was DB who was getting downplayed, while the other universes were analyzed neutrally. Now it's DBS who gets carefully and throughly analyzed and the other universes (many of which did not get any new installment) are getting wanked to high heaven.



Then bring it on when it happens.

This is not the case.

Just because DB got downplayed doesnt mean you downplay other series. The same goes for the guy with the Sonic avatar but in reverse.

Yes, downplayers will come. So what?

Anyone with a working brain knows Beerus is universal, anyone above or equal him is too and that Zeno is a casual multiversal.

Just like how multiversal status for Madoka is evident and its stupid to deny it just because there is no panel of every witch being erased.

Just because some people downplay, doesnt mean it has to become a downplaying tug-o-war. As long as it is kept rational the opinions of these people are not going to change the outcome of threads.

Otherwise have fun with multi galaxy Daishinkan and Zeno needing 2x power to destroy 1 universe if you will keep insisting on the "visuals or it didnt happened" shit.


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

Agent9149 said:


> This is from Imperator. I find it interesting you don't buy her standards on Sailor Moon verse strength but you're using her words here cause it justifies your outlook.
> 
> And this argument is sadly flawed, no offense to Imperator, Madoka may have not drastically changed the universe but her wish was strong enough to turn her to a concept strong enough to recreate the multiverse and alter it's course throughout histroy. Madoka may not be the strongest multiversal being but she's up there.



The difference is that I read Sailor Moon but knew almost nothing about Madoka (outside of her profile here) before entering the Goku vs Sailor Moon, Madoka and Sakura thread. There it was mostly Sakura multiversal stuff, and then I found this thread. So decided to look her up.

Found multiversal+ stuff on VSwiki, and then Imperator's post. I used her words because the arguments seemed to be pro-Madoka and I don't see multiversal Madoka for the same reason I don't see solar system level Cell and universe+ Sailor Moon.

And I love how you're doing the exact same thing in reverse.


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## Orochibuto (Sep 14, 2017)

Even if you downplay Madoka to the maximum possible, she still wins.

She is a concept, no one in DB is touching that.


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

Orochibuto said:


> Even if you downplay Madoka to the maximum possible, she still wins.
> 
> She is a concept, no one in DB is touching that.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Nep Heart (Sep 14, 2017)

Can Hakai really touch things that exist outside of cause and effect? Erasing a random ghost just means affecting intangibles, not incorporeal beings on a higher plane of existence. That sounds like something nobody in DBS even has an answer to beyond blowing up universes, which is a void option against someone farther into the multiverse level range than even Zeno.


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## Orochibuto (Sep 14, 2017)

Yeah, because a ghost is a concept, right?

You are not even trying anymore.


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## Nep Heart (Sep 14, 2017)

Agent9149 said:


> Ferrothorn denying feats of magical girls again. What's new?



 Also, contemplating back on this, I should consider doing a parody sketch of one of my OCs cosplaying as a magical girl one of these days just to troll that notion. I could use a chance to show off my art work even if it's not that good and not many people would be agreeing to the designs I go for.


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## Agent9149 (Sep 14, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Also, contemplating back on this, I should consider doing a parody sketch of one of my OCs cosplaying as a magical girl one of these days just to troll that notion. I could use a chance to show off my art work even if it's not that good and not many people would be agreeing to the designs I go for.



I say go for it!


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## Blakk Jakk (Sep 14, 2017)

Agent9149 said:


> I say go for it!


I second this.

Also Amps needs to show off his twin-tailed characters


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 14, 2017)

What the hell is this downplaying shitshow of a thread?

We see Madoka reset the universe on screen when she destroys Krimhilde. And thats only the universe that Madoka is from, not counting all the other ones Homura created through time travel. Considering she was gonna wipe out every witch in every universe she must have reset all of them since it fucked with everyone's memories when she wiped out the witches.


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## Nep Heart (Sep 14, 2017)



Reactions: Funny 6


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## Ferrothorn (Sep 14, 2017)

that's pretty funny actually

now it's my turn: He straight up says RT Mads is nearing his "past strength"
or this if you want: He straight up says RT Mads is nearing his "past strength"
(pretty close but still)


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## Hit The Badass (Sep 15, 2017)

@Ampchu are u going to update the profiles?

No one has updated them yet


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## Fang (Sep 15, 2017)

This thread has gotten very stupid

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Alita (Sep 16, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Quite sure the 200 quadrillion c calc was from Vados, which scales to all Angels, whom Gods of Destruction such as Beerus were explicitly stated to scale a fraction of in-setting... but I doubt that anything below G.o.D. tier would benefit from that kind of scaling.


Do you have a link to the vados calc?


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## Nep Heart (Sep 16, 2017)

Alita54 said:


> Do you have a link to the vados calc?



Kinda hard for me to find it since it's lost in that DBS feats thread, but maybe @God Movement remembers where to find it since he was the one who did it after all.



Hit The Badass said:


> @Ampchu are u going to update the profiles?
> 
> No one has updated them yet



Likely will do them myself when I get back from my morning routines since I was expecting @Haruhi Suzumiya to do so already.


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## Hit The Badass (Sep 16, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Kinda hard for me to find it since it's lost in that DBS feats thread, but maybe @God Movement remembers where to find it since he was the one who did it after all.
> 
> 
> 
> Likely will do them myself when I get back from my morning routines since I was expecting @Haruhi Suzumiya to do so already.


and I can't do it right?


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## Nep Heart (Sep 16, 2017)

Hit The Badass said:


> and I can't do it right?



Do you have an account at the wiki already? It's not really a public free-for-all wiki. Otherwise, you might want to ask @Nevermind about that.


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## Hit The Badass (Sep 16, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Do you have an account at the wiki already? It's not really a public free-for-all wiki. Otherwise, you might want to ask @Nevermind about that.


No i don't think so....


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## Solar (Sep 16, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Likely will do them myself when I get back from my morning routines since I was expecting @Haruhi Suzumiya to do so already.





Hit The Badass said:


> @Ampchu are u going to update the profiles?
> 
> No one has updated them yet



I said I would do it in a few days if it remained unchallenged, but it was challenged as recently as a day ago so I haven't done it.


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## Hit The Badass (Sep 16, 2017)

Haruhi Suzumiya said:


> I said I would do it in a few days if it remained unchallenged, but it was challenged as recently as a day ago so I haven't done it.


I don't think it was challenged now since the  outcome is already there. Most of them who challenged it was only DBS fans who never heard about Madoka Magica and were being biased.


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