# Wano Sanji VS Doflamingo



## CrownedEagle (Feb 4, 2019)

*Location -* DressRossa 
*Knowledge -* Doflamingo don't know the Raid Suit
*Distance -* 35m
*Mindset - *Bloodlusted for Sanji, In Character for Doflamingo


----------



## Corax (Feb 4, 2019)

Doflamingo failed to detect Absalom,so it is canon that he can't spot invisible characters. This rules out parasite and most of his string attacks. On the other hand we don't know how strong are RS Sanji top kicks. His base can really hurt ancient zoan user P1 but we can't compare him to Doflamingo,we don't know how really durable he is. Toss up until Sanji really hurts someone like Jack or Queen.


----------



## Gianfi (Feb 4, 2019)

I would still give the benefit of the doubt to Dofla. However, I am confident that by the end of Wano Sanji will be stronger than Dofla


----------



## Conxc (Feb 4, 2019)

Mingo.


----------



## GilDLax (Feb 4, 2019)

DD obviously. There are more than CoO to deal with invisibility. Awakening and spider web can help, unless Sanji also has phasing LOL


----------



## Rock lee rumble (Feb 4, 2019)

It's a bit too soon to be putting Sanji in all these various fights yet, still hasn't displayed much but will do soon! Also besides RS still hasn't gone full power, there's a lot yet to be seen


----------



## barreltheif (Feb 4, 2019)

Current Sanji? Doffy destroys him. End of Wano Sanji will presumably have defeated Queen, so maybe he could win. We'll see.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 4, 2019)

Sanji gets wrecked again.


----------



## Nox (Feb 4, 2019)

Dolfamingo, Mid Diff. Mingo's 4th Commander status. Rate him above the likes of Neko, Inu, Ashura and Jinbe. All of whom (as of right now) I'm taking above Sanji. However, I'm giving Sanji (Low) Mid Diff for two reasons. His speed and Mingo's suspect KH. Twice Doflamingo has failed to ascertain his opponent's status. The first was against invisibility -- which Sanji has. The second against Law who switched out bodies -- a speed feat which Sanji's good at. Better pray Sanji's speed isn't superior to G2 (which he praised) or comparable to G4 (which he got stunted on with). You can't stay in the net forever, cause you're not stopping Sanji's fire this way.


----------



## charles101 (Feb 4, 2019)

If this version of Sanji will solo Queen, then he has to be stronger than Doflamingo.


----------



## Flame (Feb 4, 2019)

What feats do we have of Wano Sanji? Until we see something impressive, Doffy wins.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## barreltheif (Feb 4, 2019)

Astro said:


> Dolfamingo, Mid Diff. Mingo's 4th Commander status. Rate him above the likes of Neko, Inu, Ashura and Jinbe. All of whom (as of right now) I'm taking above Sanji. However, I'm giving Sanji (Low) Mid Diff for two reasons. His speed and Mingo's suspect KH. Twice Doflamingo has failed to ascertain his opponent's status. The first was against invisibility -- which Sanji has. The second against Law who switched out bodies -- a speed feat which Sanji's good at. Better pray Sanji's speed isn't superior to G2 (which he praised) or comparable to G4 (which he got stunted on with). You can't stay in the net forever, cause you're not stopping Sanji's fire this way.



How could Doffy possibly be 4th commander level? Snack < Urouge < Law << Doflamingo.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Nox (Feb 4, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> How could Doffy possibly be 4th commander level? Snack < Urouge < Law << Doflamingo.



If DonQuixote Doflamingo was a free agent and approached the MUM, Beast and WB Pirates (excluding Shanks. Whose crew arrangements are still a mystery). There isn't a single commander from 1-3 that he's usurping. Let me put it in clear view;

Whitebeard

Marco
Jozu
Vista
Doflamingo
MUM Pirates

Katakuri
Smoothie
Cracker
Doflamingo
Beast Pirates

King
Queen
Jack
Doflamingo
What credible manga feats do you as proof that (i) Law is superior to Urouge? (ii) Law hasn't grown/ranked since Dressrosa, Zou, Reverie and Wano? We have a Supernova whose DF power can make him YC or EB Fodder. How sure are you Urouge isn't the same? Not that it matters since; As it stands Urouge's feats put him second only to Luffy. Doflamingo is a 3rd Commander in as much as Marco would be an Admiral if he joined Marines. *Just because your relative strength is closer to the group ahead than below doesn't mean you AUTO qualify.* Sure, Mingo has comparable feats in some aspects but he doesn't have it like that.


----------



## barreltheif (Feb 4, 2019)

I have no clue what you're talking about. First you say Doflamingo "is a 4th commander", and now you say he "is a 3rd commander inasmuch as Marco would be an admiral"? I'm not talking about Doflamingo joining a yonkou crew or whatever. You're going through a lot of unnecessary, convoluted reasoning.

I'm saying that Doflamingo is not on Snack's level. Snack lost to Urouge. Doflamingo is stronger than Urouge, and the gap is not small enough that Doflamingo could be considered on the level of people weaker than Urouge.

Your speculation about Law's possible recent growth is irrelevant, because we're talking about Law and Urouge from back when Urouge beat Snack. Not Wano Law.


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (Feb 5, 2019)

Doflamingo stomps the shit out of him. People really underestimate the crap out of Doflamingo I see......the gap between Doflamingo and Monster Trio level fighters is not at all small.


----------



## Rock lee rumble (Feb 5, 2019)

> How could Doffy possibly be 4th commander level? Snack < Urouge < Law << Doflamingo.



One thing that was clearly shown was that Cracker was on another level to Donflamingo, Luffy was fighting DD for a while before he needed to use G4, and once he did is was gg, DD didn't really have much of answer to G4! Luffy tried to fight Cracker without G4 and got absolutely wrecked, didn't stand a chance until he whipped it out! That's when the fight actually begun, then on top of that needed Nami's help otherwise Cracker would've still won! Clear as day Oda displayed that top 3 YC are on another's level to DD, even Kaido sent Jack cause he knew Jack would keep him in check


----------



## Mr. Good vibes (Feb 5, 2019)

DD might have to use one more attack this time.


----------



## Corax (Feb 5, 2019)

Rock lee rumble said:


> One thing that was clearly shown was that Cracker was on another level to Donflamingo, Luffy was fighting DD for a while before he needed to use G4, and once he did is was gg, DD didn't really have much of answer to G4! Luffy tried to fight Cracker without G4 and got absolutely wrecked, didn't stand a chance until he whipped it out! That's when the fight actually begun, then on top of that needed Nami's help otherwise Cracker would've still won! Clear as day Oda displayed that top 3 YC are on another's level to DD, even Kaido sent Jack cause he knew Jack would keep him in check


Most of his fight vs Cracker was in G1/G2/G3 as he can't keep up G4 for more than 10 min. So yeah he had an 11 hours long fight in G1/G2/G3 vs Cracker he wasn't wrecked at all. Same for Katakuri actually. He even landed 2 or 3 very solid G2 hits on Katakuri that made him bleed and grappled him in G3.


----------



## Ruse (Feb 5, 2019)

Doffy still wins I don’t think it’ll be as easy tho. 

End of Wano Sanji will probably be stronger assuming he beats Queen.


----------



## barreltheif (Feb 5, 2019)

Rock lee rumble said:


> One thing that was clearly shown was that Cracker was on another level to Donflamingo, Luffy was fighting DD for a while before he needed to use G4, and once he did is was gg, DD didn't really have much of answer to G4! Luffy tried to fight Cracker without G4 and got absolutely wrecked, didn't stand a chance until he whipped it out! That's when the fight actually begun, then on top of that needed Nami's help otherwise Cracker would've still won! Clear as day Oda displayed that top 3 YC are on another's level to DD, even Kaido sent Jack cause he knew Jack would keep him in check



You're responding to the wrong person. I was talking about Doffy vs Snack, not Doffy vs Cracker.

That said, it's pretty hard to argue that Cracker is as strong as Doffy, when Luffy only needed Nami's help to beat Cracker, whereas taking down Doflamingo took Law, Luffy, and a bunch of other people from Dressrosa. And even then, Luffy was out cold for 3 days afterward, and Law had to shorten his own lifespan.


----------



## Conxc (Feb 5, 2019)

Everyone always forgets the stadium announcer cheese.


----------



## DA hawk (Feb 5, 2019)

Doffy.


----------



## convict (Feb 5, 2019)

Everyone assuming he will solo Queen and citing that as the reason he is almost as strong or stronger than Doflamingo is crazy to me. What leaps in judgement. This fight goes from a stomp which it was, to low difficulty. Post Wano Sanji will be close to his level.

The arc after this, perhaps Elbaf, do I see Sanji on the Yonkou number 1-2 range. I don't see his end of story potential too much higher than Yonkou first mate. It is possible that he does end up soloing an admiral, that will be cool but I am not holding my breath. Currently I see Doflamingo as a Yonkou number 3 level fighter. Probably not as strong as Jack or Yasopp but on that level.


----------



## savior2005 (Feb 5, 2019)

Doffy low diff


----------



## trance (Feb 5, 2019)

doffy mid diffs

end of wano sanji might surpass him but we'll see


----------



## charles101 (Feb 6, 2019)

Astro said:


> MUM Pirates
> 
> Katakuri
> Smoothie
> ...


----------



## Dunno (Feb 6, 2019)

Could go either way. Sanji has received his long-awaited power-up this arc, all that's left for him to do is beat a top YC. Doflamingo is around that level as well, which makes this a good fight.


----------



## Law (Feb 7, 2019)

Post Wano Luffy will probably be a yonko. I expect Luffy's left hand man to be around YC3 by then, so giving the win to Sanji.


----------



## barreltheif (Feb 7, 2019)

People are confusing current Wano Sanji with end of Wano Sanji. The former is far, far below Doffy. The latter might be strong enough to beat Doffy, since he will probably beat Queen (unless Queen ends up being Kid's opponent).


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 7, 2019)

Doffy wins High diff. 



Corax said:


> Most of his fight vs Cracker was in G1/G2/G3 as he can't keep up G4 for more than 10 min. So yeah he had an 11 hours long fight in G1/G2/G3 vs Cracker he wasn't wrecked at all. Same for Katakuri actually. He even landed 2 or 3 very solid G2 hits on Katakuri that made him bleed and grappled him in G3.


How do you know that Luffy didn't used G4 for that 11 hours? but more importantly Cracker and Katakuri hurt G4 Luffy while Doffy couldn't. now what makes you think Doffy will do better if the two who's attack is more powerful couldn't defeat base Luffy?


----------



## Corax (Feb 8, 2019)

Don King said:


> Doffy wins High diff.
> 
> 
> How do you know that Luffy didn't used G4 for that 11 hours? but more importantly Cracker and Katakuri hurt G4 Luffy while Doffy couldn't. now what makes you think Doffy will do better if the two who's attack is more powerful couldn't defeat base Luffy?


I can't remember Doflamingo bleeding from G2 attacks like Katakuri or letting G3 grapple him. So either Luffy's base and G1/G2/G3 became so much stronger in a 5 days travel to WCI or it is a PIS. Or he is just a durability freak (makes sense as he took gamma knife organ melting and many G4 hits). This doesn't make him Katakuri lvl. as his attacks are really weak in comparison but he might be Cracker lvl or above as he clearly has much better durability and stamina. And his DF is better than Cracker's also he has awakening.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 8, 2019)

Corax said:


> I can't remember Doflamingo bleeding from G2 attacks like Katakuri or letting G3 grapple him. So either Luffy's base and G1/G2/G3 became so much stronger in a 5 days travel to WCI or it is a PIS. Or he is just a durability freak (makes sense as he took gamma knife organ melting and many G4 hits). This doesn't make him Katakuri lvl. as his attacks are really weak in comparison but he might be Cracker lvl or above as he clearly has much better durability and stamina. And his DF is better than Cracker's also he has awakening.


I'm not talking of what level Doffy is, He's on par with Cracker or below imo. I'm saying is If Cracker/Katakuri attack couldn't pin down base Luffy what makes you think Doffy can?


----------



## Corax (Feb 8, 2019)

Don King said:


> I'm not talking of what level Doffy is, He's on par with Cracker or below imo. I'm saying is If Cracker/Katakuri attack couldn't pin down base Luffy what makes you think Doffy can?


I can't remember full Dofla fight but didn't he land a few good hits on base gear Luffy?Though the main reason Luffy went G4 was that G3 was too slow to tag Dofla and G2 wasn't strong enough to damage him. So may be Luffy can fight Dofla for 11 hours in G2/G3 we just haven't seen this.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 8, 2019)

Corax said:


> I can't remember full Dofla fight but didn't he land a few good hits on base gear Luffy?Though the main reason Luffy went G4 was that G3 was too slow to tag Dofla and G2 wasn't strong enough to damage him. So may be Luffy can fight Dofla for 11 hours in G2/G3 we just haven't seen this.


Cracker on the other hand make G2/G3 Luffy looks like a scrub version of Luffy not until Nami make it rain and weakening the Soldier defense that Luffy last long and add a bunch of homies who we know can do really great with the surroundings.

Cracker portrayal against Luffy is also better than Doffy when Luffy is not using G4.


----------



## barreltheif (Feb 8, 2019)

Don King said:


> How do you know that Luffy didn't used G4 for that 11 hours? but more importantly Cracker and Katakuri hurt G4 Luffy while Doffy couldn't. now what makes you think Doffy will do better if the two who's attack is more powerful couldn't defeat base Luffy?



Luffy can only use G4 for about 20 minutes. That seems to have increased since the Doffy fight, but it's nowhere near 11 hours, and it certainly wasn't at the beginning of the WCI arc.

Cracker only hurt Luffy when Luffy was taken completely by surprise, because he thought the fight was over. Cracker even got a free, two-handed, over the head sword swing on Luffy's exposed outstretched arm, and yet still didn't manage to hurt Luffy that much. (Give Zoro a free hit on Luffy's outstretch arm - he'll lose the arm.)

Doflamingo actually managed to hurt Luffy in G4, drawing blood, while Luffy was paying attention, despite the fact that Doflamingo was already grievously injured.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 8, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> Luffy can only use G4 for about 20 minutes. That seems to have increased since the Doffy fight, but it's nowhere near 11 hours, and it certainly wasn't at the beginning of the WCI arc.


I never said he used it for 11 hours straight you misunderstand me, Luffy can use it then run then eat then repeat.


barreltheif said:


> Cracker only hurt Luffy when Luffy was taken completely by surprise, because he thought the fight was over. Cracker even got a free, two-handed, over the head sword swing on Luffy's exposed outstretched arm, and yet still didn't manage to hurt Luffy that much. (Give Zoro a free hit on Luffy's outstretch arm - he'll lose the arm.)


What Cracker did is part of his fighting style there is no reason to downplay what he did, it's 1V1 he hit Luffy clean and fair.

I am a Zoro fan but don't you think it's baseless? and May I ask you a question? who do you think will win in DR arc, Zoro or Doffy?



barreltheif said:


> Doflamingo actually managed to hurt Luffy in G4, drawing blood, while Luffy was paying attention, despite the fact that Doflamingo was already grievously injured.


panel??


----------



## Furinji Saiga (Feb 8, 2019)

It wont be a stomp anymore, and Sanji now has  a way to challenge him while in the skies. 

But Doffy still wins convincingly. Medium-high difficulty now. 

End of Wano Sanji high diffs Doffy.


----------



## barreltheif (Feb 8, 2019)

Don King said:


> I never said he used it for 11 hours, Luffy can use it then run then repeat. What Cracker did is part of his fighting style there is no reason to downplay what he did, it's 1V1 he hit Luffy clean and fair. I am a Zoro fan but don't you think it's baseless? and May I ask you a question? who do you think will win in DR arc, Zoro or Doffy? panel??



I mean I guess Luffy could've used G4 for like 3% of the time during those 11 hours. Much more than that and he would have ended up unconscious for days.

Cracker had a free hit because Luffy didn't know anything about his abilities. Luffy and Law went into the fight with Doflamingo knowing a lot about his powers. For instance, he wouldn't have been able to fool them using Black Knight.

If Zoro got a free hit against Luffy's outstretched arm, and couldn't cut through it, he should give up his dream of being the strongest swordsman. It's not easy to say anything too definitive about Zoro because he hasn't really struggled much at all since the timeskip. But I always assumed that Doflamingo was stronger than him.

Doflamingo hurt Luffy with offwhite. We see Luffy's blood on the string after it hits him on 785/13.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 8, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> Cracker had a free hit because Luffy didn't know anything about his abilities. Luffy and Law went into the fight with Doflamingo knowing a lot about his powers. For instance, he wouldn't have been able to fool them using Black Knight.


Cracker tricked Luffy and it paid off very well, resulting to Luffy screaming in pain and drew blood. put Doffy in that scenario Luffy will just shrug the attack like what he did to Athlete thread attack.

you may think that both scenario is different because one use trick and got a free hit and the other doesn't but it is the same, the context of that scenario Doffy or Cracker is they been able to hit Luffy the other manage to inflict injury while the other failed. The main reason is Cracker Haki is stronger than Luffy while in Doffy's case it's Luffy's Haki that stronger than Doffy's.



barreltheif said:


> If Zoro got a free hit against Luffy's outstretched arm, and couldn't cut through it, he should give up his dream of being the strongest swordsman. It's not easy to say anything too definitive about Zoro because he hasn't really struggled much at all since the timeskip. But I always assumed that Doflamingo was stronger than him.


I know Zoro main use of Haki is Coa but there is no indication if Zoro's Haki is stronger than Luffy. You said Doffy is stronger than Zoro but Used Zoro as an example to inflict damage to Luffy that you are certain that it will work while the much stronger Doffy couldn't. It doesn't make sense to me.


barreltheif said:


> Doflamingo hurt Luffy with offwhite. We see Luffy's blood on the string after it hits him on 785/13.


 

this is it? I don't see blood. I only see Luffy bouncing around because Doffy couldn't penetrate Luffy's Haki.


----------



## barreltheif (Feb 8, 2019)

Don King said:


> Cracker tricked Luffy and it paid off very well, resulting to Luffy screaming in pain and drew blood. put Doffy in that scenario Luffy will just shrug the attack like what he did to Athlete thread attack. you may think that both scenario is different because one use trick and got a free hit and the other doesn't but it is the same, the context of that scenario Doffy or Cracker is they been able to hit Luffy the other manage to inflict injury while the other failed. The main reason is Cracker Haki is stronger than Luffy while in Doffy's case it's Luffy's Haki that stronger than Doffy's. I know Zoro main use of Haki is Coa but there is no indication if Zoro's Haki is stronger than Luffy. You said Doffy is stronger than Zoro but Used Zoro as an example to inflict damage to Luffy that you are certain that it will work while the much stronger Doffy couldn't. It doesn't make sense to me.



You're not making sense. Obviously, if someone like Zoro or Shutenmaru or Doflamingo got a free hit against Luffy's outstretched arm, that arm would be fucked. You think Luffy is just going to bounce back if he takes a clean shi shishi sonson to the elbow? It's true that Doflamingo only seemed to do fairly minor damage with offwhite - there wasn't that much blood - but that was because only a single strand hit Luffy.


----------



## DarkRasengan (Feb 8, 2019)

If sanji extreme diffs queen, then he mid diffs doffy. I can't see a whole lot of doffys attacks hurting sanji with the raid suit, and with sanjis experience with parasite and having stealth i cant see him getting caught in it.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 8, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> You're not making sense. Obviously, if someone like Zoro or Sentomaru or Doflamingo got a free hit against Luffy's outstretched arm, that arm would be fucked. You think Luffy is just going to bounce back if he takes a clean shi shishi sonson to the elbow? It's true that Doflamingo only seemed to do fairly minor damage with offwhite - there wasn't that much blood - but that was because only a single strand hit Luffy.


I know I am making sense but If you didn't see it maybe it's time to stop this.

Cracker didn't used any name attack on Luffy when he cut his arm(it's just a normal swing of his sword coated with Haki) and secondly that Arm that Luffy stretch is coated with G4 haki the same Haki Doffy couldn't penetrate.




You've just didn't downplay Cracker at this points but also Luffy's G4 show me some panel that Luffy got hurt in G4 form. Yes, Only Cracker, Katakuri and Kaido these Character prove that their Haki is greater than Luffy. You're saying Zoro but what you're doing is baseless opinion of what if. Sentomaru or Shutenmaru? as for him we don't know too (again baseless) and as for Doffy look at this panel. 






He just can't do it, what so hard to understand?


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 9, 2019)

What has Sanji done that puts him above Doflamingo? Fighting Pageone is not enough to put him above a fighter who survived a round of G4 while holding his insides together with emergency first aid. Doflamingo still wins for now.


----------



## Sherlōck (Feb 9, 2019)

Doffy mid diffs current Sanji.

Post Wano it's high diff.


----------



## Phantom Thief (Feb 10, 2019)

Currently, would say Doflamingo mid-diffs RS Sanji, but on the higher end. Upper low-diffs Base Sanji


----------



## barreltheif (Feb 10, 2019)

Don King said:


> I know I am making sense but If you didn't see it maybe it's time to stop this.
> Cracker didn't used any name attack on Luffy when he cut his arm(it's just a normal swing of his sword coated with Haki) and secondly that Arm that Luffy stretch is coated with G4 haki the same Haki Doffy couldn't penetrate.
> You've just didn't downplay Cracker at this points but also Luffy's G4 show me some panel that Luffy got hurt in G4 form. *Yes, Only Cracker, Katakuri and Kaido these Character prove that their Haki is greater than Luffy. You're saying Zoro but what you're doing is baseless opinion of what if*. He just can't do it, what so hard to understand?



I'm trying to decipher your thought process. I think it's something like...Luffy has better CoA than Zoro and Doflamingo, therefore they can't damage him at all. Needless to say, that's not how CoA works.


----------



## Rock lee rumble (Feb 10, 2019)

People seem to think that Queen and Doffy are somewhat close in power scale, no chance for me! Doffy isn't as strong as a YC top 3, clearly shown by how Luffy was powerless against Cracker until he used G4, then the fight only began, still needed Nami's help! Queen is 2nd strongest bar Kaido there's a huge gap in power for me, I think Jack is mid diff Doffy so if Sanji beats Queen this arch he mid diff Doffy calmly! As of right now he hasn't displayed anything that shows he'll beat Doffy


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Feb 10, 2019)

Page one is stronger than doffy


----------



## Conxc (Feb 10, 2019)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Page one is stronger than doffy


Based off what?


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 10, 2019)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Page one is stronger than doffy




Da fuck


----------



## Conxc (Feb 10, 2019)

A character that we have reason to believe will be stomped by *Sanji *is stronger than Doffy?


----------



## Quipchaque (Feb 10, 2019)

Astro said:


> Dolfamingo, Mid Diff. Mingo's 4th Commander status. Rate him above the likes of Neko, Inu, Ashura and Jinbe. All of whom (as of right now) I'm taking above Sanji. However, I'm giving Sanji (Low) Mid Diff for two reasons. His speed and Mingo's suspect KH. Twice Doflamingo has failed to ascertain his opponent's status. The first was against invisibility -- which Sanji has. The second against Law who switched out bodies -- a speed feat which Sanji's good at. Better pray Sanji's speed isn't superior to G2 (which he praised) or comparable to G4 (which he got stunted on with). You can't stay in the net forever, cause you're not stopping Sanji's fire this way.



Putting Jimbei above Sanji is silly considering that it was Sanji whom Oda highlighted in their shared Fishman island portrayal. You gotta understand author's intent. He tried to establish a power ranking there the same way he does in arc battles with the most powerful fighting last.


----------



## GilDLax (Feb 10, 2019)

Don King said:


> the same Haki Doffy couldn't penetrate.


...I like how it's outright said a fusion of CoA and rubber's elasticity but people keep acting it's just the Haki....

And precisely because of this that Luffy's arm being stretched matters


----------



## GilDLax (Feb 10, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Putting Jimbei above Sanji is silly considering that it was Sanji whom Oda highlighted in their shared Fishman island portrayal. You gotta understand author's intent. He tried to establish a power ranking there the same way he does in arc battles with the most powerful fighting last.


You know what other kind fighting last? The steal kill type of gamer in MOBA game LOL

Jinbe was absolutely superior in portrayal.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 11, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> I'm trying to decipher your thought process. I think it's something like...Luffy has better CoA than Zoro and Doflamingo, therefore they can't damage him at all. Needless to say, *that's not how CoA works.*


I like you to enlighten me, because I don't know what you're talking about how Coa works.

This panel give us how Coa works:




GilDLax said:


> ...*I like how it's outright said a fusion of CoA and rubber's elasticity but people keep acting it's just the Haki....*
> 
> And precisely because of this that Luffy's arm being stretched matters


True, but it doesn't matter, so what if it's a combination? Cracker did negate the rubber effect because his Haki bypass the elasticity while Doffy couldn't? You disagree with me? because that's the point I'm trying to make here.


----------



## GilDLax (Feb 11, 2019)

Don King said:


> Cracker did negate the rubber effect because his Haki bypass the elasticity


...
O__O
Luffy is immune to blunt attack, not sharp one. So when Cracker slashed with a sword (presumably sharp, unless he's into blunt sword...) we know the elasticity was never a problem, just the CoA, especially when Luffy's arm is fully stretched like that (easier to rupture).

DD's Athleito is a blunt attack (the threads are sharp but he was stopped at moment of impact and could not slash the threads along the way he did to Sanji with 5-color Threads) and Luffy's Hardening body is not stretched at all.

In fact, Cracker could not do shit to Tankman Stuffed version with his sharp piercing attack and Tankman is even inferior to Boundman given how it's not as muscular and merely a Hardening balloon version due to Luffy's excessive eating...

On the other hand, Doffy did hurt G4 when we came back from the off-screened 20 minutes so not sure how Cracker's better than him...

Btw, Viz's official translation also corrects that Luffy never said Cracker's CoA is better than DD. He simply said it was too hard and nothing else.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 11, 2019)

GilDLax said:


> DD's Athleito is a blunt attack *(the threads are sharp but he was stopped at moment of impact and could not slash the threads along the way he did to Sanji with 5-color Threads)* and Luffy's Hardening body is not stretched at all.


I was about to disagree with you but this is make sense.



GilDLax said:


> In fact, Cracker could not do shit to Tankman Stuffed version with his sharp piercing attack and Tankman is even inferior to Boundman given how it's not as muscular and merely a Hardening balloon version due to Luffy's excessive eating...


This is were you're wrong, there is a reason Luffy called it "TankMan" because it's better in tanking, tankman is big because it's fat it means Luffy's bounciness became X much more stronger. He just ate the attack and return it tenfold.


GilDLax said:


> On the other hand, Doffy did hurt G4 when we came back from the off-screened 20 minutes so not sure how Cracker's better than him...


He is, in terms of Haki that's for sure. fyi the topic here is not who's stronger between Doffy and Cracker. I know you love Doffy but let's not go into that route.


GilDLax said:


> Btw, Viz's official translation also corrects that Luffy never said Cracker's CoA is better than DD. He simply said it was too hard and nothing else.


I'm aware of it, but still a comment is a comment... He did it to Cracker and didn't to Doffy and both of them fought with Luffy.


----------



## Kobe (Feb 11, 2019)

I don't get why people throw out these arbitrary YC3 comparisons. How many of them we have again? Let's compare Doflamingo against the ones we have seen.

DD < Marco
DD >= Jozu
DD >= Vista
DD >= Ace
DD < Katakuri
DD >= Cracker
DD > Smoothie
DD > Snack
DD >= Jack


Doflamingo is comfortably stronger than a bunch, and would fare well against a few of them. I only see losing him against Marco and Katakuri.


----------



## barreltheif (Feb 11, 2019)

Don King said:


> I like you to enlighten me, because I don't know what you're talking about how Coa works.



CoA protects the user from other attacks, to some extent. Obviously, it doesn't make you invulnerable to all attacks from people using weaker CoA. I think that's actually what you think, and it's why none of your arguments make any sense.

Take away Shanks' CoA. Do you think he would be able to damage Pica?


----------



## NooksBrigade (Feb 11, 2019)

Kobe said:


> I don't get why people throw out these arbitrary YC3 comparisons. How many of them we have again? Let's compare Doflamingo against the ones we have seen.
> 
> DD < Marco
> DD >= Jozu
> ...



I want to see DD fight Mihawk,  fight two Admirals + Sengoku (managing to sink two battleships), or even put up a decent fight against Aokiji like Ace did.


Real list goes like this:
DD <<<<< Kaido
DD <<< Aokiji
DD << Marco
DD << Katakuri
DD << King
DD < Vista
DD < Smoothie
DD < Queen
DD < Jozu
DD < Ace
DD < Cracker
DD < Jack
DD > Snack
DD >> Wano RS Sanji
DD >>> Dessrosa Sanji


* DD's strings on Jozu was a blindside attack. Even Katakuri & Luffy failed to see flampe's attack; and they have high level CoO.


----------



## barreltheif (Feb 11, 2019)

NooksBrigade said:


> DD's strings on Jozu was a blindside attack. Even Katakuri & Luffy failed to see flampe's attack; and they have high level CoO.



It wasn't a blindside attack. Doflamingo was directly in front of Jozu. Jozu was running towards Doffy and Croc.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 11, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> CoA protects the user from other attacks, to some extent. Obviously, it doesn't make you invulnerable to all attacks from people using weaker CoA. I think that's actually what you think, and it's why none of your arguments make any sense.
> 
> Take away Shanks' CoA. Do you think he would be able to damage Pica?


Let me explain it to you one more time, let's say your Coa haki is level 70 then you attack someone whose Coa haki level is 90 then your attack will do no damage. Imagine this scenario as Doffy attack Luffy with athlete thread that Boundman easily deflect.

Cracker on the other hand, Let's say he has Coa Haki level 100 then he attack Luffy who have 90, the outcome is he cut Luffy and make him bleed.

Did it make sense now? Let me give you another Manga evidence about this topic. When Doffy think Law cutting ability will be no match to Vergo but they didn't know that Law's Haki > Vergo Haki that's why he's been able to cut Vergo in half in PH arc. Even Smoker said something about this to Tashigi.


and


I give you manga panel as a basis and evidence, you keep giving me fan fiction and you never explain things to me and you keep giving me question like this, "Take away Shanks' CoA. Do you think he would be able to damage Pica?" Which I feel irrelevant? but to answer this Yes, because their gap is so wide it's not even close. Iirc we have a panel where attacker didn't used Coa and the one whose on defense used it and the winner is the attacker because their gap is too wide but I don't remember what scene.


----------



## Tenma (Feb 11, 2019)

The idea that someone with weaker CoA is incapable of damaging someone with stronger CoA is pretty...stupid, by that logic Zoro could stand there all day and not take a scratch from Sanji.

not to mention Katakuri had better CoA than Luffy but still lost, Bellamy punched through Luffy's CoA, Doflamingo had better haki than Law but was still cut grabbing his sword etc

both Pica and Vergo who believed 'my haki will protect me I don't need to block/dodge' proved suicidally overconfident, whereas veterans like Katakuri and Doflamingo know the importance of evading and blocking even with stronger haki.


----------



## Tenma (Feb 11, 2019)

Additionally, Cracker's real pretzel blade is his most potent form of offense, in DD's case that's his awakening threads, not athelete string. Cracker's other attacks (ie his biscuit soldiers) using counterfeit Pretzels made of biscuit couldn't pierce base Luffy's haki, it really isn't that simple a comparison.


----------



## Quipchaque (Feb 11, 2019)

Kobe said:


> I don't get why people throw out these arbitrary YC3 comparisons. How many of them we have again? Let's compare Doflamingo against the ones we have seen.
> 
> DD < Marco
> *DD >= Jozu
> ...




The bold ones I would argue are not true but  no need to defend your stance. Just pointing out that it's completely up for debate.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 11, 2019)

Tenma said:


> The idea that someone with weaker CoA is incapable of damaging someone with stronger CoA is pretty...stupid, by that logic Zoro could stand there all day and not take a scratch from Sanji.


If Zoro's Haki is much stronger why not? there is no way to know for sure (Your example is base on your opinion and it's kinda baseless and irrelevant)You're posting like Barrelthief. It's like Vergo used Full Body Haki but Sanji don't have any kind of attack that can hurt him.


Tenma said:


> not to mention Katakuri had better CoA than Luffy but still lost


We can see whenever they clash Luffy's got hurt by it, plus Luffy's getting stronger as the fight goes on. that's the MC privilage for you.


Tenma said:


> Bellamy punched through Luffy's CoA



This you talking about? It's because even though Bellamy's Haki is weaker the attack itself help to make more damage and also nothing indicate that Luffy's Haki is stronger than Bellamy in base form.



Tenma said:


> Doflamingo had better haki than Law but was still cut grabbing his sword etc


Where is stated or shown that Doffy's Haki is stronger? their Haki probably equal or by that's scene alone maybe Law's haki is stronger than Doffy plus iiirc Doffy grab the swords and hold it tighter that's why he bleed.


Tenma said:


> both Pica and Vergo who believed 'my haki will protect me I don't need to block/dodge' proved suicidally overconfident, whereas veterans like Katakuri and Doflamingo know the importance of evading and blocking even with stronger haki.


It's true but they're not going to think of it or said it, if it's not even the case, I provide a panel above, which means it works like that.


Tenma said:


> Additionally, Cracker's real pretzel blade is his most potent form of offense, in DD's case that's his awakening threads, not athelete string. Cracker's other attacks (ie his biscuit soldiers) couldn't pierce base Luffy's haki, it really isn't that simple a comparison.


I agree, maybe it much more complex than what I'm trying to say but can you blame me? if I'm talking to someone who can't explain things why he think different to what I think? at least you, you give a good point and try to disprove what I'm saying but I think you're wrong by calling it "stupid" because what I did is post Manga evidence, some of what you're saying raise a question but it didn't debunk the panel I post.


----------



## GilDLax (Feb 11, 2019)

Don King said:


> This is were you're wrong, there is a reason Luffy called it "TankMan" because it's better in tanking, tankman is big because it's fat it means Luffy's bounciness became X much more stronger. He just ate the attack and return it tenfold.


...I'm talking about elasticity...




Don King said:


> He is, in terms of Haki that's for sure. fyi the topic here is not who's stronger between Doffy and Cracker. I know you love Doffy but let's not go into that route.


Nice reading comprehension! I like how I brought up an argument (DD hurt G4, too) and you addressed nothing of it and instead went on doing appeal to agenda/motive fallacy.






Don King said:


> I'm aware of it, but still a comment is a comment... He did it to Cracker and didn't to Doffy and both of them fought with Luffy.


He didn't comment about it to Admirals and feat-wise there's nothing different. Show me where G2 can hurt DD besides sucker punch and when DD was already severely weakened?


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 11, 2019)

GilDLax said:


> ...I'm talking about elasticity...


It's better in tanking because the name itself is Tankman how can you call this version inferior, Cracker Hurt Boundman but Cracker Didn't hurt Tankman yet you think Boundman is much better tank? WTF!?


GilDLax said:


> Nice reading comprehension! I like how I brought up an argument (DD hurt G4, too) and you addressed nothing of it and instead went on doing appeal to agenda/motive fallacy.


Then I will, Luffy's reaction to Cracker cutting him > Doffy's attack that you're claiming hurt Luffy.

Edit: post a panel where Doffy hurt G4. I can't remember those things because I believe there are none.


GilDLax said:


> He didn't comment about it to Admirals and feat-wise there's nothing different.


It's because Cracker Haki > Fujitora Haki? even their portrayal Cracker is even better than Fuji. I don't want to do this but there you are manga facts.


GilDLax said:


> Show me where G2 can hurt DD besides sucker punch and when DD was already severely weakened?


and show me where G2 hurt Cracker none too, so the only things the pointing to whose stronger in Haki is in G4 form that Cracker is the no doubt winner.


----------



## Tenma (Feb 11, 2019)

Don King said:


> If Zoro's Haki is much stronger why not? (Your example is base on your opinion and it's kinda baseless and irrelevant). It's like Vergo used Full Body Haki but Sanji don't have any kind of attack that can hurt him.



We know Zoro's haki is stronger than Sanji, but you can't seriously think Zoro could just sit there eat his strongest kicks to the face 'cause 'muh haki'.



> We can see whenever they clash Luffy's got hurt by it, plus Luffy's getting stronger as the fight goes on. that's the MC privilage for you.



Sure in a clash of basic attacks the person with the stronger haki will win out....but that's entirely different from someone with stronger haki being completely impervious to those with weaker haki. But whenever Luffy hit Katakuri in the face or chest, Katakuri still took damage despite applying haki to the area of impact and having explicitly stronger haki.





> This you talking about? It's because even though Bellamy's Haki is weaker the attack itself help to make a damage.



...So basically, you acknowledge that someone with weaker haki can damage someone with stronger haki, and that the kind of attack and level of attack is still important. That's basically what barreltheif is saying, that someone with better haki will have a significant starting advantage in defensive and offensive potential but there's still a whole host of other factors that can decide whether an attack can be tanked or blocked. Luffy's haki can withstand Cracker's haki when he's using counterfeit biscuit pretzels, but when he pulls out a legendary sword he can cut even G4. Luffy Boundman can be cut by Cracker, but Tankman toughened by Cracker's biscuits can withstand a direct hit from Pretzel.



> Where is stated or shown that Doffy's Haki is stronger? their Haki probably equal or by that's scene alone maybe Law's haki is stronger than Doffy plus iiirc Doffy grab the swords and hold it tighter that's why he bleed.



So in every fight where both fighters take damage they have completely equal haki? Or if Law's haki is stronger, how is Doffy managing to hurt him? You know that's hard to believe.



> It's true but they're not going to think of it or said it, if it's not even the case, I provide a panel above, which means it works like that.



Not really, Doffy overestimating Vergo aside we haven't seen anyone with stronger haki withstand Law's attacks. All we have in Doffy making several assumptions and immediately being proven wrong, whether it was because Law had better haki than Vergo, he misunderstood Law's attacks, or haki simply being ineffective on that kind of attack.



> I agree, maybe it much more complex than what I'm trying to say but can you blame me? if I'm talking to someone who can't explain things why he think different to what I think? at least you, you give a good point and try to disprove what I'm saying but I think you're wrong by calling it "stupid" because what I did is post Manga evidence, some of what you're saying raise a question but it didn't debunk the panel I post.



I'm not calling you stupid, I'm saying it would be stupid if combat in One Piece was as ridiculously simplified as haki a>haki b, means that person b cannot hurt person a at all regardless of what kind of attack he uses. Obviously the level of the attack (KKG vs gomu gomu pistol), DFs, raid suits, weapons, resistances, stamina etc have an equal say in whether an attack works as haki does. That's why you can have back and forths to start with.

Take Doffy and Cracker. Doffy's regular strings can pierce base Luffy's haki but cannot pierce G4. Doffy's awakening threads can pierce G4. Cracker's counterfeit biscuit swords cannot pierce base Luffy's haki. Cracker's real Pretzel slash can damage G4. Already its obvious that haki levels alone are useless in deciding the outcome of a fight or a clash.


----------



## Sherlōck (Feb 11, 2019)

Someone with weaker haki can damage someone with stronger haki if the force behind the attack is so strong that it makes up for the weaker haki.


----------



## Bernkastel (Feb 11, 2019)

Sanji lacks any feats to put him above DD currently..end of Wano will be different prob but who knows


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 11, 2019)

Tenma said:


> We know Zoro's haki is stronger than Sanji, but you can't seriously think Zoro could just sit there eat his strongest kicks to the face 'cause 'muh haki'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To the zoro part. I never said about thats the tactic you will use in a fight. Of course you are free to defend or evade.

To the second part: Katakuri didn't used the superior haki to defend luffy's attack.

To the third: our og topic is if cracker have better haki than doffy it just drag down but tell me to the scene where cracker cut luffy and the attack that doffy did is can be explain by my point and reasoning. That cracker did it because he has much better haki. Maybe i misunderstand barrel but i am right with doffy and cracker thing. He just want to talk other specific of it but im already right because cracker just attack a normal swing swords pretty basic move and doffy did is some name attack the only thing that differentiate the attack is the  result and thats because of haki which i am explaining above that you callled stupid.

As for the cracker swords. How do we know that the swing attack of cracker swords is superior to the athelte theard though not a swords, produce a much cutting feats base on dc? No haki involve the athlete produced better damage only the haki application give cracker a better result.

And for the tankman. How do we know that the application of haki to achieve the feats effect of tankman is not the reason why it can suddenly tank cracker attack? And the mass of luffy's body also help just like with katakuri's block mochi.

The rest is I think misunderstanding now. Because i believe too thats its not all about haki. We need to consider how strong the initial attack, Lets say jet pistol with haki will produce less dmg to that g3 version with haki. I get that. 

 Only the scene of doffy and cracker is what im talking which you think im talking about general power. I stick to the og topic while barrel didnt debunk my argument instead produce other argument which is me being stupid and misunderstand lol sorry barrelthief.

Now tell me if im wrong with cracker and doffy. The evidence is all there, cracker with swords doesnt mean much stronger attack than athlete thread where we have a panel of athlete thread procude more damage to the surroundings and can cut the same as a swords. Only the haki that made a difference. And it support by the panel i post that haki level is a thing and it explain very well in doffy and cracker scenario.


----------



## HaxHax (Feb 11, 2019)

Don King said:


> I like you to enlighten me, because I don't know what you're talking about how Coa works.
> 
> This panel give us how Coa works:
> 
> ...



The first thing we learn about CoA haki in this series (Amazon Lily) shows that it can be overpowered even without any haki at all.


----------



## Kobe (Feb 11, 2019)

Isn't Luffy weak to slashing attacks? (compared to being resistant against blunt attacks)


----------



## Tenma (Feb 11, 2019)

Don King said:


> To the zoro part. I never said about thats the tactic you will use in a fight. Of course you are free to defend or evade.
> 
> To the second part: Katakuri didn't used the superior haki to defend luffy's attack.
> 
> ...



Well, as long as you agree Zoro can't beat Sanji by literally just standing there and no-selling his attacks...

I don't see how this changes Katakuri having clearly better haki than Luffy. But since you acknowledged that it isn't all about haki this is kind of a moot point at this juncture...

Except when using a sword made of biscuit and a named attack (Pretzel Roll) Cracker was unable to pierce base Luffy's haki. It was only when he used his legendary sword Pretzel that he could damage G4. Given Pretzel is Cracker's strongest offensive option I don't see how its quite fair to compare it to a string kick, named or not, when it is explicitly shown and mentioned that Awakening is Doflamingo's strongest offensive option.



Legendary sword>counterfeit biscuits. Awakening threads are concentrated and apply much more force than Doffy's standard string attacks, just like how the real Pretzel is much sharper than the fake biscuit ones, which is why there is a distinct difference in performance between fake and real pretzels. Quality of materials apply as well, you can't possibly think every individual thread Doffy produces has the same cutting power as a meito. Luffy tanking Athlete thread doesn't mean he can tank Awakening strikes (one we do see hit and damage him iirc). Obviously, the quality of the haki vector matters.


----------



## Kobe (Feb 11, 2019)

CoA = Pain tolerance.

Defensive CoA = Ability to withstand pain against an incoming hit.
Offensive CoA = Ability to withstand pain against an outgoing hit.

If you withstand pain either way, then likely won't be faltered in a matchup. But there may come a point that either the incoming hit is too strong to override your pain tolerance, or your hit is just matched against a more rigid obstacle.

This type of analogy should make it easier to tackle whatever problems you guys are having.


----------



## Steven (Feb 11, 2019)

If he get new good feats.Maybe

For now,no


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Feb 11, 2019)

Most of the time Sanji will be above Luffy’s opponent from 2 arcs ago.


----------



## Louis-954 (Feb 11, 2019)

Corax said:


> Doflamingo failed to detect Absalom,so* it is canon that he can't spot invisible characters. This rules out parasite and most of his string attacks.* On the other hand we don't know how strong are RS Sanji top kicks. His base can really hurt ancient zoan user P1 but we can't compare him to Doflamingo,we don't know how really durable he is. Toss up until Sanji really hurts someone like Jack or Queen.


The *fuck*? 

He can spot an invisible character if he uses Observation Haki, which he can use.


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (Feb 11, 2019)

Tenma said:


> Luffy tanking Athlete thread doesn't mean he can tank Awakening strikes (one we do see hit and damage him iirc). Obviously, the quality of the haki vector matters.


I recall Doflas haki hardened awakened strings pushing base Luffy back but not piercing his haki coated skin and Doflas strongest attack didn't damage Boundman Luffys fist at all


----------



## barreltheif (Feb 11, 2019)

Don King said:


> Let me explain it to you one more time, let's say your Coa haki is level 70 then you attack someone whose Coa haki level is 90 then your attack will do no damage. Imagine this scenario as Doffy attack Luffy with athlete thread that Boundman easily deflect.
> Cracker on the other hand, Let's say he has Coa Haki level 100 then he attack Luffy who have 90, the outcome is he cut Luffy and make him bleed.



That's not how CoA works. If you fight someone who is using much stronger CoA, but your attack is powerful enough, you will damage them. If your CoA is 70 and your opponent's is 90, and you use a weak attack, it may do no damage, but if you then use a much stronger attack, it probably will do damage.

I don't understand why you keep bringing up athlete's thread, given that the problem for Doffy was not that Luffy's CoA was too hard, but that Doffy didn't expect boundman to be rubbery. That's also perhaps the worst example you could possibly use, since the next attack Doffy lands on Luffy pierces his CoA and draws blood.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 11, 2019)

Tenma said:


> Well, as long as you agree Zoro can't beat Sanji by literally just standing there and no-selling his attacks...
> 
> I don't see how this changes Katakuri having clearly better haki than Luffy. But since you acknowledged that it isn't all about haki this is kind of a moot point at this juncture...
> 
> ...


I will concede now for this topic cause I agree with you.

Awakening attack of Doffy didn't hurt Luffy though, show me a panel?


HaxHax said:


> The first thing we learn about CoA haki in this series (Amazon Lily) shows that it can be overpowered even without any haki at all.





Don King said:


> I give you manga panel as a basis and evidence, you keep giving me fan fiction and you never explain things to me and you keep giving me question like this, "Take away Shanks' CoA. Do you think he would be able to damage Pica?" Which I feel irrelevant? but to answer this Yes, because their gap is so wide it's not even close. *Iirc we have a panel where attacker didn't used Coa and the one whose on defense used it and the winner is the attacker because their gap is too wide but I don't remember what scene.*


Base on the post above means I'm aware of this but my point is, stronger Haki > Weaker Haki which he said that's not how Haki works which is wrong and I am right about Haki.


barreltheif said:


> *That's not how CoA works. If you fight someone who is using much stronger CoA, but your attack is powerful enough, you will damage them. If your CoA is 70 and your opponent's is 90, and you use a weak attack, it may do no damage, but if you then use a much stronger attack, it probably will do damage.*
> 
> I don't understand why you keep bringing up athlete's thread, given that the problem for Doffy was not that Luffy's CoA was too hard, but that Doffy didn't expect boundman to be rubbery. That's also perhaps the worst example you could possibly use, since the next attack Doffy lands on Luffy pierces his CoA and draws blood.


Okay, we got so much confusion about each other but let's just focus on Haki. you are wrong here, if we focus on Haki alone and how we understand it I am right all you did is add someone power be it on strength or overall power while me focus on the topic and you keep saying "that's not haki works" but you add other aspect of overall fight like strength etc... because what you're trying to say to me is, the overall power of a character and haki is just one aspect of it. You cannot say the other character have 70 Haki but his attack got 100 it means(if we do this mathematically) 170 attack power while the other have 50 haki but his attack got 100 and only got 150 with this we're not only talking about Haki instead the overall power of a character.


----------



## barreltheif (Feb 11, 2019)

Don King said:


> I will concede now for this topic cause I agree with you.
> Awakening attack of Doffy didn't hurt Luffy though, show me a panel?
> Base on the post above means I'm aware of this but my point is, stronger Haki > Weaker Haki which he said that's not how Haki works which is wrong and I am right about Haki.
> Okay, we got so much confusion about each other but let's just focus on Haki. you are wrong here, if we focus on Haki alone and how we understand it I am right all you did is add someone power be it on strength or overall power while me focus on the topic and you keep saying "that's not haki works" but you add other aspect of overall fight like strength etc... because what you're trying to say to me is, the overall power of a character and haki is just one aspect of it. You cannot say the other character have 70 Haki but his attack got 100 it means(if we do this mathematically) 170 attack power while the other have 50 haki but his attack got 100 and only got 150 with this we're not only talking about Haki instead the overall power of a character.



I can't follow your run-on sentences. It seems like you're finally conceding that it's possible for Doflamingo and Zoro to damage Luffy even though their CoA is (perhaps) inferior to his. That's a step in the right direction.


----------



## Conxc (Feb 11, 2019)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Most of the time Sanji will be above Luffy’s opponent from 2 arcs ago.


How many of Luffy’s opponents flat out no-diffed Sanji before? That ass whooping gives Doffy bragging rights until Sanji beats someone stronger or proves in some way that he’s stronger.


----------



## Dunno (Feb 12, 2019)

Conxc said:


> How many of Luffy’s opponents flat out no-diffed Sanji before? That ass whooping gives Doffy bragging rights until Sanji beats someone stronger or proves in some way that he’s stronger.


Doffy gave Luffy a similar kind of ass whooping earlier that arc as well. Crocodile, Enel, Moria and Lucci all no- to low-diffed different M3 members before the final fight. Even Caesar beat Luffy early on in the arc. The SHs usually perform badly in mid-arc fights. Doflamingo was definitely stronger than Sanji at that time, but now that he has a raid suit, it's not certain any more.


----------



## Muah (Feb 12, 2019)

Louis-954 said:


> The *fuck*?
> 
> He can spot an invisible character if he uses Observation Haki, which he can use.



what mmjjakes you think coo can see invisible ppl. you might be able to tell where they are but you cant see them.


----------



## Muah (Feb 12, 2019)

Sanji kinda has to be stronger. Doffy is waaaaay weaker than cracker who is probably equal to or weaker than queen and king. Sanji got owned by Doflamingo but to be fair he had alot of disadvantages going in. If Law is immune to parasite im guessing Sanji can break out/ avoid it if he knew to look out for it. plus he was in the sky which is s big advantage for Doflamingo because he can stand on strings.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 12, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> I can't follow your run-on sentences. It seems like you're finally conceding that it's possible for Doflamingo and Zoro to damage Luffy even though their CoA is (perhaps) inferior to his. That's a step in the right direction.


I'm agreeing to other things but in Doffy and Zoro case I am not because it's not proven. They're not stronger than Luffy in any other way Haki is one of those things.

I'm agreeing to the reason like this, in Amazon Lily Luffy manage to damage the sister even though he didn't used Haki because his over all strength is stronger but in Doffy and Zoro case they're not stronger than Luffy in any other way except to Zoro swordmanship, to Doffy what his DF can do.


----------



## Conxc (Feb 12, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Doffy gave Luffy a similar kind of ass whooping earlier that arc as well. Crocodile, Enel, Moria and Lucci all no- to low-diffed different M3 members before the final fight. Even Caesar beat Luffy early on in the arc. The SHs usually perform badly in mid-arc fights. Doflamingo was definitely stronger than Sanji at that time, but now that he has a raid suit, it's not certain any more.


Despite that, we know better because Luffy defeated everybody you named. If he didn’t, there would be doubt. I’m giving Doffy the nod until Sanji proves he’s stronger. Unlike everyone else, I don’t see Sanji fighting Queen, which is the only reason so many people even think Sanji vs Doffy is even a question.


----------



## barreltheif (Feb 12, 2019)

I think Sanji will probably beat Queen, which would probably put end-of-Wano Sanji above Doffy. But end-of-Wano Sanji is very, very different than current Sanji. There's no reason at all to think that current Sanji has any chance against Doflamingo.




Don King said:


> I'm agreeing to other things but in Doffy and Zoro case I am not because it's not proven. They're not stronger than Luffy in any other way Haki is one of those things.
> 
> I'm agreeing to the reason like this, in Amazon Lily Luffy manage to damage the sister even though he didn't used Haki because his over all strength is stronger but in Doffy and Zoro case they're not stronger than Luffy in any other way except to Zoro swordmanship, to Doffy what his DF can do.



You're still not making sense. Why would you need to be *stronger* than someone to be able to hurt them at all? First you were saying that Zoro and Doflamingo can't damage Luffy at all, because their CoA is weaker. Now you're saying it's not just that their CoA is weaker, but also that they're not stronger than Luffy in other ways. But why would either of these mean that they can't even damage him? Your reasoning is just bizarre.


----------



## Louis-954 (Feb 12, 2019)

Muah said:


> what mmjjakes you think coo can see invisible ppl. you might be able to tell where they are but you cant see them.


Do you not know how CoO works? Look at when Usopp defeated Sugar, or when Fujitora wished he hadn’t blinded himself or when Luffy had his eyes closed vs. Katakuri.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 12, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> You're still not making sense. Why would you need to be *stronger* than someone to be able to hurt them at all? First you were saying that Zoro and Doflamingo can't damage Luffy at all, because their CoA is weaker. Now you're saying it's not just that their CoA is weaker, but also that they're not stronger than Luffy in other ways. But why would either of these mean that they can't even damage him? Your reasoning is just bizarre.


How do you know that Zoro can cut G4 Luffy's arm? and Doffy already failed to do it. What is the reason why doffy couldn't cut G4 Luffy? but Cracker able to do it.


----------



## Dunno (Feb 12, 2019)

Conxc said:


> Despite that, we know better because Luffy defeated everybody you named. If he didn’t, there would be doubt. I’m giving Doffy the nod until Sanji proves he’s stronger. Unlike everyone else, I don’t see Sanji fighting Queen, which is the only reason so many people even think Sanji vs Doffy is even a question.



Sure, nothing is confirmed. Doflamingo could still be stronger than Sanji. F you don't think Sanji is beating Queen,  then I see why you wouldn't rank him higher than Doflamingo, although I think Queen fits Sanji quite well given his aversion to okamas. 



Don King said:


> I'm agreeing to other things but in Doffy and Zoro case I am not because it's not proven. They're not stronger than Luffy in any other way Haki is one of those things.
> 
> I'm agreeing to the reason like this, in Amazon Lily Luffy manage to damage the sister even though he didn't used Haki because his over all strength is stronger but in Doffy and Zoro case they're not stronger than Luffy in any other way except to Zoro swordmanship, to Doffy what his DF can do.


Hody managed to hurt Luffy badly even though he didn't use haki at all and was significantly weaker than Luffy. To completely negate an attack, you need to be way stronger than your opponent.


----------



## GilDLax (Feb 12, 2019)

Don King said:


> It's better in tanking because the name itself is Tankman how can you call this version inferior, Cracker Hurt Boundman but Cracker Didn't hurt Tankman yet you think Boundman is much better tank? WTF!?


...
This is the umpteenth time you addressed nothing of the point actually said and just went on repeating your argument ...

I just said ''I'm talking about *elasticity*'' and clearly specifically about Stuffed version of Tankman. Where the hell did I say Tankman is inferior to Boundman in tanking in general?...




Don King said:


> Then I will


*Then* you will? O__o

''I don't bother to debate intellectually and resort to appeal to motive. Only when called out on my fallacy THEN I will do it.''

...Nice high and mighty attitude...




Don King said:


> Luffy's reaction to Cracker cutting him > Doffy's attack that you're claiming hurt Luffy.


DD's reaction to Red Hawk is worse than to Rhino Schneider...what's your point?

When attacked by surprise it's normal. It's a matter of being mentally prepared. Think of a real life scenario. If you go have a vaccine and know beforehand a needle will pierce your skin, you will not scream (well, depends on individual. Some has phobia but I'm not talking about special cases like that anw). But if someone out of nowhere stick a needle into your body suddenly your reaction wouldn't be so calm, even though the needle is the same and the piercing force is so, too. 


Cracker's only hurt Luffy with surprise attack. The first time he tried a frontal attack, well, he got one-shot




Don King said:


> Edit: post a panel where Doffy hurt G4. I can't remember those things because I believe there are none.


Chapter 785 page 13, last panel.




Don King said:


> It's because Cracker Haki > Fujitora Haki?


Fujitora is the only Admiral? Luffy has hit or being hit by other Admirals before. Nowhere did he comment anything. Pre-TS he didn't know CoA so it makes sense he didn't know what to call it but at least a ''too hard'' would suffice but nope. Nothing!

And what? First of all, there's no evidence Cracker's CoA > Fuji's.

Second of all, let say it's true, it still does not explain why Fuji didn't get a comment. Unless you're saying Cracker's CoA is exactly precisely above the threshold to be given a ''too hard'' comment whereas Fujitora is precisely right at that threshold or below to not receive a comment? Okay, very convenient! Then maybe I can apply the same convenience to other situations in this manga and see how it makes no sense:

- Luffy did not comment about Katakuri and BM's CoA, too. I can give you Katakuri but BM? BM clearly casually blocked Kong Gun, something Cracker's CoA biscuit shield cannot hold up in anw and was smashed every time it happened on-screen.

- He also did not comment about Kaidou's body, even though, CoA or not, his body no-sold Elephant Gun and Kong Organ which means it's way harder than the same biscuit shield Kong Gun and the same Kong Organ smashed

So your ''too hard'' comment argument does not hold up.



Don King said:


> even their portrayal Cracker is even better than Fuji. I don't want to do this but there you are manga facts.


Facts? What? Cracker did nothing compared to Fuji. 

Fuji has island-wide range and very destructive technique (Mouko+rubble lifting>>>anything Cracker ever showed, even his ten-man biscuit army). Can lift you in the air by lifting your ground and throw you about. Can lift himself on ground so high air travel and mobility. Has CoO, or whatever that thing is, so good he can perceive shape. Not a glass canon like Cracker. 

...




Don King said:


> and show me where G2 hurt Cracker none too,


You're desperate and holding onto semantics. DD actually did tank G2 casually without harm. Cracker never did and he openly admitted he could not handle pain hence why he hid inside the clone. Even after he came out and despite the fact he looked down on Luffy, he never ventured forward to fight Luffy by himself and still used the clones, only when Luffy got so fat and used Tankman Stuffed version which looks ridiculously like a joke did Cracker dare to do frontal attack LOL


So don't shift burden of proof!





Don King said:


> so the only things the pointing to whose stronger in Haki is in G4 form that Cracker is the no doubt winner.


Too bad he isn't.

Like I said, Cracker's only feat of hurting G4 is a *
-surprise and sharp* attack (which DD's wasn't and you admitted yourself it made sense) 
+ 
-on Luffy's arm that is fully stretched (again, Luffy cannot stretch *infinitely*, which is proven time and time again, most recently IIRC when he was tied in Mont D'Or's book and tried his best to get out and Nami was so scared his arm would tear apart. So yeah, like reaql life rubber, when stretched fully the rubber is easier to rupture due to reaching the maximum point)

And finally, DD did hurt G4, too. He also has feat of blocking G4 Double Culverin. Cracker's CoA biscuit broke every time vs G4. What Cracker did is produce so many of them to compensate quality with quantity but his CoA and biscuit never hold.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 12, 2019)

Dunno said:


> *Hody managed to hurt Luffy badly even though he didn't use haki at all and was significantly weaker than Luffy*. To completely negate an attack, you need to be way stronger than your opponent.


Good catch, This is much more complicated than I thought. Hody is much weaker than Luffy but he did hurt Luffy without Haki. 

Luffy is not way stronger than Doffy but Luffy negate his attack. it means G4 Luffy version put him way above Doffy's level but not to Cracker cause Cracker able to cut Luffy and make his G4 bounciness nullified.


----------



## GilDLax (Feb 12, 2019)

Don King said:


> cause Cracker able to cut Luffy and make his G4 bounciness nullified.



You're still not reading One Piece. Luffy was never immune to sharp attack LOL


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 12, 2019)

GilDLax said:


> ...
> This is the umpteenth time you addressed nothing of the point actually said and just went on repeating your argument ...
> 
> I just said ''I'm talking about *elasticity*'' and clearly specifically about Stuffed version of Tankman. Where the hell did I say Tankman is inferior to Boundman in tanking in general?...


You just said it, Tankman is inferior because you think the Boundman is much muscular.


GilDLax said:


> DD's reaction to Red Hawk is worse than to Rhino Schneider...what's your point?
> 
> When attacked by surprise it's normal. It's a matter of being mentally prepared. Think of a real life scenario. If you go have a vaccine and know beforehand a needle will pierce your skin, you will not scream (well, depends on individual. Some has phobia but I'm not talking about special cases like that anw). But if someone out of nowhere stick a needle into your body suddenly your reaction wouldn't be so calm, even though the needle is the same and the piercing force is so, too.


and that surprise attack is useless if Doffy do it because we saw he couldn't hurt G4's Haki, Show me a panel he hurt G4 Luffy and don't give me a scenario in which nothing to do to our topic. If Doffy make the surprise attack to that hand of Luffy will it make him bleed? when we have a panel that show Luffy's Haki is superior. What is the reason why Doffy couldn't hurt Luffy? with those Athlete thread? if it is a normal hand that Cracker cut I will not use this but he cut a G4 hakified hand.


GilDLax said:


> Chapter 785 page 13, last panel.


I already post it, Where is the clear indication of Doffy making Luffy bleed? All I see is no damage and Luffy just bounce off.


GilDLax said:


> Fujitora is the only Admiral? Luffy has hit or being hit by other Admirals before. Nowhere did he comment anything. Pre-TS he didn't know CoA so it makes sense he didn't know what to call it but at least a ''too hard'' would suffice but nope. Nothing!
> 
> And what? First of all, there's no evidence Cracker's CoA > Fuji's.


but we have an indication of who's Luffy think have a hard Coa between the two.


GilDLax said:


> - Luffy did not comment about Katakuri and BM's CoA, too. I can give you Katakuri but BM? BM clearly casually blocked Kong Gun, something Cracker's CoA biscuit shield cannot hold up in anw and was smashed every time it happened on-screen.


You give me Katakuri cause you know what im going to reply, about for BM he used a G4 attack much better Haki application than that of base form Luffy whose the version of Luffy made a comment about Cracker's Haki.


GilDLax said:


> - He also did not comment about Kaidou's body, even though, CoA or not, his body no-sold Elephant Gun and Kong Organ which means it's way harder than the same biscuit shield Kong Gun and the same Kong Organ smashed


He is in angry mode he even forgot he has Future sight, do you want him to stop attacking and talk while he know pretty well how strong is his opponent? his state of mind as of this moment is not very clear all he wants to do is to attack the enemy.


GilDLax said:


> So your ''too hard'' comment argument does not hold up.


it does hold up. We have a Luffy's base form who fought Fujitora and Cracker and he made a comment to Crackers Haki while the answer you give me is very different version/scenario.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 12, 2019)

GilDLax said:


> Fuji has island-wide range and very destructive technique (Mouko+rubble lifting>>>anything Cracker ever showed, even his ten-man biscuit army). Can lift you in the air by lifting your ground and throw you about. Can lift himself on ground so high air travel and mobility. Has CoO, or whatever that thing is, so good he can perceive shape. Not a glass canon like Cracker.


Okay, good feat but when he fought Luffy what happen? nothing. Cracker by manga panel made Luffy base form looks like scrub. it's a fact currently so it counts  fly all you want, levitate things but he failed at subduing Luffy while Cracker with only those Biscuit soldier did way better and that's a fact.


GilDLax said:


> You're desperate and holding onto semantics. DD actually did tank G2 casually without harm. Cracker never did and he openly admitted he could not handle pain hence why he hid inside the clone. Even after he came out and despite the fact he looked down on Luffy, he never ventured forward to fight Luffy by himself and still used the clones, only when Luffy got so fat and used Tankman Stuffed version which looks ridiculously like a joke did Cracker dare to do frontal attack LOL
> 
> 
> So don't shift burden of proof!


I'm not shifting anything, it is you who shift this into durability because now that's where we're going.


GilDLax said:


> Too bad he isn't.
> 
> Like I said, Cracker's only feat of hurting G4 is a
> *-surprise and sharp* attack (which DD's wasn't and you admitted yourself it made sense)
> ...


You know he is, in terms of Haki. That's all, the only quality that Cracker have against Doffy that is superior and you're trying to take it for granted to put Doffy above Cracker. I'm not saying Cracker is stronger (I have them as equal or Crack being a little stronger). I'm just saying in Haki only because that's clear as the sky by Oda and you try to debunk it by the lack evidence and uncertain things.

Luffy's arm didn't stretch that far to be able to make a big difference:


----------



## GilDLax (Feb 12, 2019)

Don King said:


> You just said it, Tankman is inferior because you think the Boundman is much muscular.


And I said I was talking about elasticity. In fact, that's been the whole point in my argument. Reading comprehension!




Don King said:


> don't give me a scenario in which nothing to do to our topic


It has everything to do with our topic. I'm using it to support my reasoning how surprise attack can induce reaction worse than what it would have been had it not been a surprise attack. Do you actually understand what you read?




Don King said:


> because we saw he couldn't hurt G4's Haki, Show me a panel he hurt G4 Luffy


Already gave you the precise panel ''location''




Don King said:


> If Doffy make the surprise attack to that hand of Luffy will it make him bleed?


If it's a sharp attack and of at least same or above the level of the attack DD used to bleed Luffy then sure.




Don King said:


> What is the reason why Doffy couldn't hurt Luffy? with those Athlete thread?


Already addressed and you even said it made sense...




Don King said:


> Where is the clear indication of Doffy making Luffy bleed?



You don't see the blood smearing? O__O




Don King said:


> but we have an indication of who's Luffy think have a hard Coa between the two.


Again, you quoted but don't seem to understand what you read. What does the first paragraph in that quote say?

And hence I'm telling you, with that 1st paragraph, that comment means nothing besides a fact that Cracker's CoA is hard to Luffy at that point. It cannot be used to compare characters because Luffy didn't even comment that to characters who have better CoA than Cracker. It's a in-the-moment thing




Don King said:


> You give me Katakuri cause you know what im going to reply


I have no idea what you're going to reply. I give you Katakuri simply because I think an argument can be made that his CoA is < Cracker's and it's the Block Mochi that matters. Once again, you like to extrapolate from your pretty narrow-minded head that I argue for the sake of agenda LOL If that was the case why would I even bring up Katakuri to begin with?




Don King said:


> about for BM he used a G4 attack much better Haki application than that of base form Luffy whose the version of Luffy made a comment about Cracker's Haki.


...
So? The toughness does not change, it's just because your attack is stronger and can break/handle thing more easily. 

If you mean _''hardness is relative to the attack is what I mean''_, then by your logic you can't compare Fuji and Cracker either cause Luffy used G3 vs Fujitora which is stronger than G2 and indeed Luffy didn't say Cracker's CoA was too hard when he first used Elephant Gun. I can also argue DD's Awakening did not receive ''too hard'' comment cause Luffy was in G4, not because his CoA is weaker than Cracker's
Be consistent, mate! Don't invent reasoning on-the-fly and tried to change it around every damn time you're refuted. This is not the first time

And okay, G4>>>G2, so? BM's CoA is also >>> Cracker's. What's your point? So once again, you're going for a convenient scenario where BM's CoA is just better than Cracker's enough for Luffy to not feel it's hard. Exactly and precisely that amount of superiority?





Don King said:


> He is in angry mode he even forgot he have Future sight, do you want him to stop attacking and talk while he know pretty well how strong is opponent.


Luffy was not in a hurry to retrieve Sanji when fighting Cracker? He did not know beforehand Cracker is strong when he said exactly that to Nami a chapter before?
Also he did not have to stop to give comment LOL. he was in a middle of Hawk Gattling when he commented on Cracker's CoA. Read the manga! You have been showing again and again you do not remember a lot of things in the manga




Don King said:


> We have a Luffy's base form who fought Fujitora



G3




Don King said:


> while the answer you give me is very different version/scenario.


Not different as reasoned above





Don King said:


> Okay, good feat but when he fought Luffy what happen? nothing. Cracker by manga panel made Luffy base form looks like scrub. it's a fact currently so it counts  fly all you want, levitate things but he failed at subduing Luffy while Cracker with only those Biscuit soldier did way better and that's a fact.



So you completely ignore his inner struggle and agenda through out the arc and by his own admission he was trying his best to uphold his position? He didn't get serious until Mouko and that was lucky to luffy cause he's immune to blunt attack

If you like to ignore context, sure, but too bad story-telling mediums have context





Don King said:


> I'm not shifting anything, it is you who shift this into durability because now that's where we're going.


Nice try to dodge but you can't change the fact you're doing it. Why would you demand an evidence of Cracker tanking G2 when it's not needed as I reasoned?

And you are the one insisting this ''too hard'' comment matters when I told you Viz official translation did not have Luffy said Cracker's CoA was harder than DD. So I only followed  and showed you Luffy also never did shit to DD with G2 either, except for special circumstances.


You're asked to prove a point and instead you throw back an irrelevant demand as if you have nothing to do with it LOL




Don King said:


> You know he is, in terms of Haki.


This is a meaningless statement and thinly veiled appeal to agenda again. I brought up actual argument and you're not addressing anything. 

If that's qualified for intellectual debate then I wonder why I can't just walk up to anyone I hate and say ''you know you're a filthy scum and please kill yourself'' and they will do it...?! 



Don King said:


> and you're trying to take it for granted to put Doffy above Cracker


Appeal to motive the nth time! I can also say you're trying to put Cracker above DD and we will go around for eternity. Be debate-educated, mate! Childish argument is not good anymore.





Don King said:


> because that's clear as the sky by Oda and you try to debunk it by the lack evidence and uncertain things.


Except that I have panel evidence and you can't see the blood LOL. Also, uncertain things? You mean how your ''too hard comment matters'' logic is double standard and on-the-fly as it goes?

But it's okay. Disagreement hence debate. I didn't ask for more. All I'm waiting for is you actually reasoning why these evidence and reasoning of mine are not good enough so we can continue but you can't help being an appeal-to-motive high and mighty poster who can only say ''you know you're wrong and you're just biasedly boosting your liked character'', can you?


----------



## Corax (Feb 12, 2019)

Fujitora didn't use haki to tank G3 EG. Also BM used her haki later,so if anything Luffy compared Cracker's haki to his previous DR,FI and PH opponents.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 12, 2019)

GilDLax said:


> And I said I was talking about elasticity. In fact, that's been the whole point in my argument. Reading comprehension!


How is the elasticity of boundman better than Tankman?


GilDLax said:


> It has everything to do with our topic. I'm using it to support my reasoning how surprise attack can induce reaction worse than what it would have been had it not been a surprise attack. Do you actually understand what you read?


Still didn't help you.


GilDLax said:


> If it's a sharp attack and of at least same or above the level of the attack DD used to bleed Luffy then sure.


we didn't see nothing from Doffy's arsenal that he can hurt Luffy's G4 While Cracker we have not just a cut but the reaction of the attack as well.


GilDLax said:


> You don't see the blood smearing? O__O


I don't


GilDLax said:


> Again, you quoted but don't seem to understand what you read. What does the first paragraph in that quote say?
> 
> And hence I'm telling you, with that 1st paragraph, that comment means nothing besides a fact that Cracker's CoA is hard to Luffy at that point. It cannot be used to compare characters because Luffy didn't even comment that to characters who have better CoA than Cracker. It's a in-the-moment thing


He fought Fujitora way ealier than Cracker yet Luffy thinks Cracker Coa is too hard for him.


GilDLax said:


> I have no idea what you're going to reply. I give you Katakuri simply because I think an argument can be made that his CoA is < Cracker's and it's the Block Mochi that matters. Once again, you like to extrapolate from your pretty narrow-minded head that I argue for the sake of agenda LOL If that was the case why would I even bring up Katakuri to begin with?


I don't know tell me.


GilDLax said:


> If you mean _''hardness is relative to the attack is what I mean''_, then by your logic you can't compare Fuji and Cracker either cause Luffy used G3 vs Fujitora which is stronger than G2 and indeed Luffy didn't say Cracker's CoA was too hard when he first used Elephant Gun. I can also argue DD's Awakening did not receive ''too hard'' comment cause Luffy was in G4, not because his CoA is weaker than Cracker's
> Be consistent, mate! Don't invent reasoning on-the-fly and tried to change it around every damn time you're refuted. This is not the first time


G3 only? are you sure? then read the chapter again. it's G3 and base form not even G2. so this whole post is a moot except the Doffy fought the G4.


GilDLax said:


> And okay, G4>>>G2, so? BM's CoA is also >>> Cracker's. What's your point? So once again, you're going for a convenient scenario where BM's CoA is just better than Cracker's enough for Luffy to not feel it's hard. Exactly and precisely that amount of superiority?


G4 attack Big mom with Coa haki he didn't comment about it because it's G4 the same G4 that overpower the Block Mochi but when he is in base form with Haki he's feeling the pain coming from the block Mochi. Which tell you already G4 Haki is better than base Luffy's Haki.


GilDLax said:


> Luffy was not in a hurry to retrieve Sanji when fighting Cracker? He did not know beforehand Cracker is strong when he said exactly that to Nami a chapter before?
> Also he did not have to stop to give comment LOL. he was in a middle of Hawk Gattling when he commented on Cracker's CoA. Read the manga! You have been showing again and again you do not remember a lot of things in the manga


Do we need Oda to comment to all of this? He didn't because we don't need too because we already know that Kaido is special in durability and BM is far superior than CRacker while in Cracker he did because he want us to know that this next opponent is superior in Haki just by the very next arc. You saying this to me "Don't invent reasoning on-the-fly and tried to change it around every damn time you're refuted" but so did you.


GilDLax said:


> So you completely ignore his inner struggle and agenda through out the arc and by his own admission he was trying his best to uphold his position? He didn't get serious until Mouko and that was lucky to luffy cause he's immune to blunt attack
> 
> If you like to ignore context, sure, but too bad story-telling mediums have context


Still counted as a fight and Fujitora said he's trying to fulfill his role as an Admiral in which caught/kill a pirate that's the primary job of the Marine. the Only thing that changed his mind is when he feel what the citizen of DR are feeling towards Luffy. Yeah, you understand the context.


GilDLax said:


> And you are the one insisting this ''too hard'' comment matters when I told you Viz official translation did not have Luffy said Cracker's CoA was harder than DD. So I only followed and showed you Luffy also never did shit to DD with G2 either, except for special circumstances.


Too hard only for Doffy and we have a panel of it that prove that I'm right. You're the one that throwing Kaido and Big Mom to expand your argument.


GilDLax said:


> You're asked to prove a point and instead you throw back an irrelevant demand as if you have nothing to do with it LOL


You throw it at me, I just throw it back to you cause that's What you said in post #71 as for your reply to my post in # 60 which is irrelevant how what you said there will help you? or even refute my point that Cracker Haki is stronger than Doffy? Lmao Don't pretend that your not doing it.


GilDLax said:


> This is a meaningless statement and thinly veiled appeal to agenda again. I brought up actual argument and you're not addressing anything.
> 
> If that's qualified for intellectual debate then I wonder why I can't just walk up to anyone I hate and say ''you know you're a filthy scum and please kill yourself'' and they will do it...?!


How? WTF? I show you panel where Cracker cut Luffy and Doffy didn't literally and I'm the one not addressing anything. You show me a panel where is unclear and can be doubted, where is the blood? none, nice try twisting things bro.


GilDLax said:


> Appeal to motive the nth time! I can also say you're trying to put Cracker above DD and we will go around for eternity. Be debate-educated, mate! Childish argument is not good anymore.


and I am telling you this way before post # 60 and you reply to me this " instead went on doing appeal to agenda/motive fallacy" like literally this where we end up. You're accusing me of having an agenda while I'll try to prevent this from happening to go on with this where we are now and now that we are you're having enough? calling it childish. be on point prove me Doffy's Haki is above Cracker, All i need to do is post Cracker cut Luffy's hand and that the end of it I won manga panel the best source for debate but I try to debate it with what you're saying/reasoning in the first place then I ended up doing it too, Suddenly all you say is relevant.


GilDLax said:


> Except that I have panel evidence and you can't see the blood LOL. Also, uncertain things? You mean how your ''too hard comment matters'' logic is double standard and on-the-fly as it goes?


It's because it don't LOL and you know that. Is it matter because the next opponents of Luffy is Cracker and that's what Oda's trying to say when he put that Comment about Cracker's Haki. Talking about context as if you're the expert but can see this pretty basic word that Oda's trying to do.


GilDLax said:


> But it's okay. Disagreement hence debate. I didn't ask for more. All I'm waiting for is you actually reasoning why these evidence and reasoning of mine are not good enough so we can continue but you can't help being an appeal-to-motive high and mighty poster who can only say ''you know you're wrong and you're just biasedly boosting your liked character'', can you?


NO... you're the one that can't help but appeal to your motive, I know we're going to this by the time you can't prove me that Doffy's Haki is superior or at least equal to Cracker. It's not the first time we do this and before  you wait for my reasoning why your evidence is not good make my reason not good enough first because you failed in every way to prove that Doffy's Haki is superior to Cracker. When I do reason why your reason is not good enough your not even ready to accept it. Because let's be real here, In your mind you think even Doffy is stronger than Katakuri I don't remember exactly if you outright post it here but I know you do want it. Who between us have motive now?

I'm not trying to be great debater here, I just want to have fun and I don't consider myself as one but I do like to debate OP overall, it helps me to keep busy while the Chapter is not yet out.


----------



## Kylo Ren (Feb 12, 2019)

Corax said:


> Fujitora didn't use haki to tank G3 EG. *Also BM used her haki later,so if anything Luffy compared Cracker's haki to his previous DR,FI and PH opponents.*


That's what I'm saying, It's applicable to Luffy's previous opponents(Doffy) before Cracker but not to BM where he used as a reason and even goddamn Kaido  @GilDLax


----------



## Muah (Feb 12, 2019)

Louis-954 said:


> Do you not know how CoO works? Look at when Usopp defeated Sugar, or when Fujitora wished he hadn’t blinded himself or when Luffy had his eyes closed vs. Katakuri.


None of that has to do with invisible ppl. coo let you know your opponents next move. It doesnt allow you to see invisible ppl. Or at the very least not everyone can do it. Evidence of this is page one not being able to see Sanji. atleast thats the working theory. if Coo lets you see Invisible ppl than shiryuus ability is pretty useless. 

eg. Coo lets you know Sanji is in front of you but you cant see his limbs to know what type of kick hes throwing.


----------



## Tenma (Feb 12, 2019)

Corax said:


> Fujitora didn't use haki to tank G3 EG. Also BM used her haki later,so if anything Luffy compared Cracker's haki to his previous DR,FI and PH opponents.



Luffy didn't compare Cracker's haki to anyone, he just commented on how hard it was.


----------



## charles101 (Feb 12, 2019)

Kobe said:


> DD >= Cracker
> DD > Smoothie



Wat

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Louis-954 (Feb 12, 2019)

Muah said:


> *None of that has to do with invisible ppl.* coo let you know your opponents next move. It doesnt allow you to see invisible ppl. Or at the very least not everyone can do it. Evidence of this is page one not being able to see Sanji. atleast thats the working theory. *if Coo lets you see Invisible ppl than shiryuus ability is pretty useless. *
> 
> eg.* Coo lets you know Sanji is in front of you but you cant see his limbs to know what type of kick hes throwing.*


If you can't see something then it's invisible to you.  Usopp, Fujitora and Luffy... none of them could see their targets but they still were able to pinpoint their exact locations and movements and 'see' them as auras.

No it isn't... I've explained this a million times before. Haki is a finite resource, it's not something you can always keep turned on. It's a huge drain on stamina. Luffy even says "if Katakuri keeps spamming his ability it's going to get weaker".

The invisibility fruit or ability *forces* a haki user to *ALWAYS* keep their haki activated if they want to 'see' where their invisible opponent is at or what they are doing. Over a long, drawn out fight plays into the favor of the invisible fighter because there will come a point where their opponent can no longer keep their haki activated to track their movements. If you can become invisible you can conserve your own haki and chip away at the opponents faster than they can chip away at yours.

@Second bold What?? Dude no... have you not been paying attention to how CoO works?




What do you mean they can't see the persons limbs or know what kind of attack is going to be thrown?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Muah (Feb 12, 2019)

Louis-954 said:


> If you can't see something then it's invisible to you.  Usopp, Fujitora and Luffy... none of them could see their targets but they still were able to pinpoint their exact locations and movements and 'see' them as auras.
> 
> No it isn't... I've explained this a million times before. Haki is a finite resource, it's not something you can always keep turned on. It's a huge drain on stamina. Luffy even says "if Katakuri keeps spamming his ability it's going to get weaker".
> 
> ...



yes he can see thier limbs. because thier not invisible. read my post slowly.

many things especially because were complelty working off assumption. but im not going to argue semantics. because thats what it is. fuji cant see because hed blind byt he can see his opponents because Haki "shows" them. But he cant see Luffys face becase the daz bones his own eyes. Coo may or may nit allow ppl to see Sanji but for the most part even if they can see Sanji they cant see him as they cant use COO to tell what color hair he has. its Odas prerogative to take Sanjis abilty in whatever direction he wants but we dont know how COO percieves invisible people. we dont even kniw how coo percieves anything. we dont even have levels of haki we can compare.


----------



## barreltheif (Feb 12, 2019)

Muah said:


> yes he can see thier limbs. because thier not invisible. read my post slowly.
> many things especially because were complelty working off assumption. but im not going to argue semantics. because thats what it is. fuji cant see because hed blind byt he can see his opponents because Haki "shows" them. But he cant see Luffys face becase the daz bones his own eyes. Coo may or may nit allow ppl to see Sanji but for the most part even if they can see Sanji they cant see him as they cant use COO to tell what color hair he has. its Odas prerogative to take Sanjis abilty in whatever direction he wants but we dont know how COO percieves invisible people. we dont even kniw how coo percieves anything. we dont even have levels of haki we can compare.



Lord jesus what is this post


----------



## Louis-954 (Feb 12, 2019)

Muah said:


> yes he can see thier limbs. because thier not invisible. read my post slowly.
> 
> many things especially because were complelty working off assumption. but im not going to argue semantics. because thats what it is. fuji cant see because hed blind byt he can see his opponents because Haki "shows" them. But he cant see Luffys face becase the daz bones his own eyes. Coo may or may nit allow ppl to see Sanji but for the most part even if they can see Sanji they cant see him as they cant use COO to tell what color hair he has. its Odas prerogative to take Sanjis abilty in whatever direction he wants but we dont know how COO percieves invisible people. we dont even kniw how coo percieves anything. we dont even have levels of haki we can compare.


It would appear that you’re the only person in the OL who doesn’t understand how Observation Haki works.


----------



## Muah (Feb 12, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> Lord jesus what is this post



beyond your comprehension apparently.


----------



## Muah (Feb 12, 2019)

Louis-954 said:


> It would appear that you’re the only person in the OL who doesn’t understand how Observation Haki works.


And you think you do? i dont expect you to have an actual argument just post smileys n shit.


----------



## Louis-954 (Feb 12, 2019)

Muah said:


> And you think you do? i dont expect you to have an actual argument just post smileys n shit.


Well yeah. I actually pay attention when I read.


----------



## Muah (Feb 13, 2019)

Louis-954 said:


> Well yeah. I actually pay attention when I read.


It's impossible for somebody to keep posting and never say shit but yet here you are. I keep reading your post in a 5 year old voice because that's your identity on this forum. a kid who says I want I want i want. Even Sakura has matured over the years better, her and her shit husband.

You don't understand why the invisibility fruit is important  and you have no idea the effect COO has on it. Just admit it and stop stomping around this thread like a little girl. You don't know why Oda gave it to shiryuu and like 10 chapters later gave it to Sanji. You can assume but you don't fucking know. You can say it was for a purpose or you can say it was deliberate but I know the thruth. You don't fucking know. 

As far as COO you don't know how it fucking works because it's never been properly shown how it works. It lets you know where your opponent is and possibly there next move but that doesn't explain how Luffy can dodge thousands of water spikes from Hody. He doesn't just get a fucking still image of the rain and try to think about where the rain wont hit. By fucking fact thats never be discussed in the manga and is basically seeing the fucking future which is an ability that wasn't suppose to show until Katakuri. So if you can clearly explain that shit which you cant stop acting like a fucking..

Anyway Knowing your opponent is going to through a straight right jab is seeing the future which is basic coo so how is that different than what dogthooth does? Have you ever considered that Shiryuu's fruit makes his aura invisible too? Which is why none have ever caught him until wano? Did you ever think germa's technology can do the same. No I suppose you've never given serious thought into anything.
God I hate to qoute Naruto but your like the fucking Uchiha squad that Itachi slapped around because they thought they were hot shit through arrogance alone. Small little puddles that accidentally touched the ocean only to realize how little they actually knew. There's at least 20 questions I know you don't know about COO that this forum could be discussing but they're to busy riding Zoros dick into every new discussion and shit posting to have an actual debate. Thats why this forum is only a spiraling vertex of shit, trolling and fucking bandwidth crushing amounts of fucking smileys that drive me fucking mad. Every week a new fucking smiley. a fucking tomato a cat in bed some knew black guy smiling that people fucking spam for weeks on end until finally it cements it's self into a meaningless exclamation point at the end of every post that fucking losers post instead of having an actual emotion or valid point they just post a fucking smiley of al sharpton because society has lost touch with reality and we live in a post truth society where it doesnt' matter if what you say or how you feel is valid or important it matters how many cowards can get it to trend on youtube or twitter to eat away at the hearts of actual living people. Mindless drivel that would have been ignored 15 years ago forcing it's way down the throats of millions indiscriminately and without purpose. And that's what you use to fucking argue against me. The problem must be the Zero tolerance for bullying that would foster such slimy banter to blend into an actual conversation with out somebody jumping from behind your computer to pull your underwear over your head for being smarmy.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Beast (Feb 13, 2019)

We know the basics of Haki, but let’s not act as if we know how KH works against invisibility. Not to mention DDs KH is piss poor, I think it was very clear he was BH specialist. 

Still sanji needs more fire power to put down DD. 

Had sanji losing mid diff with just knowledge but RS defiantly takes it to high diff or whenever DD takes out awaking lol.


----------



## Louis-954 (Feb 13, 2019)

Muah said:


> It's impossible for somebody to keep posting and never say shit but yet here you are. I keep reading your post in a 5 year old voice because that's your identity on this forum. a kid who says I want I want i want. Even Sakura has matured over the years better, her and her shit husband.
> 
> You don't understand why the invisibility fruit is important  and you have no idea the effect COO has on it. Just admit it and *stop stomping around this thread like a little girl.* You don't know why Oda gave it to shiryuu and like 10 chapters later gave it to Sanji. You can assume but you don't fucking know. You can say it was for a purpose or you can say it was deliberate but I know the thruth. You don't fucking know.
> 
> ...


Do you know what punctuation is?  I'd be happy to have a proper discussion with you about CoO if I feel like I'm not talking to someone just rolling their face across the keyboard.

@ the bold. Oh the irony.


----------



## Fel1x (Feb 14, 2019)

Rock lee rumble said:


> It's a bit too soon to be putting Sanji in all these various fights yet, still hasn't displayed much but will do soon! Also besides RS still hasn't gone full power, there's a lot yet to be seen


this.

but I have a feeling he is for sure stronger now.


----------



## sanji's left eye (Apr 12, 2019)

Probably going to get shit for bumping this but fuck it, I saw way too much ignorance to let this slide.

Cracker is stronger than DD. A lot stronger. It really isn't debatable. BM knew that Luffy beat DD. She is not going to send someone weaker than DD to fight him. And it showed. Luffy showed for quite a while that he could fight DD w/o G4. Against Cracker, he got dusted in a matter of seconds w/o G4. 

Then Luffy used G4. What happened against DD? He was getting his shit kicked in all around the country. DD landed one attack on him the entire time and it did absolutely nothing. Luffy used G4 against Cracker. What happened? Luffy has an even fight with him and we see G4 Luffy get hurt for the first time. Then Luffy either has to run away from him before G4 runs out or he lets his time run out and Nami and the homies had to save him (off-panel so one of these things had to have happened).

So let's see the G4 pattern here people. G4's introduction: he dominates (DD). Next use: he draws with it (Cracker). And the next opponent: it loses (Katakuri). 

It's also a very common sense Shounen pattern. The villain the MC went all out against the previous arc is weaker than the villain the MC went all out against this arc. Note the pattern people. Buggy to Kuro to Don Krieg to Arlong to Crocodile to Enel to Lucci to Gecko Moria to DD to Cracker to Katakuri.

The only notable exception is Enel for obvious reasons - Luffy being his natural enemy. You'll note I did not include Hody because Luffy did not need to go all out to defeat him. Oda very clearly has a formula for Luffy. And it stretches for over 10 villains. And this is not something new for One Piece. Like I said it is common for Shounen. Dragonball for instance. At the first tournament, Roshi was stronger than Nam who was stronger than Giran. At the second tournament, Tien was stronger than Krillin who was stronger than Pamput. And at the final tournament, Piccolo was stronger than Tien who was stronger than Chi Chi. Or to limit it to the opponents Goku goes all out against, Roshi (first tournament) < Tien < King Piccolo < Piccolo. DBZ the progression is even more obvious.

As for the thread, obviously we have not seen enough to know this answer. DD showed that he is fringe YC4 level. Sanji has barely showed off the raid suit for us to know how strong he is. By the end of the arc, at worst this should be a really interesting fight, but more likely Sanji will just be flat out stronger.


----------



## Amol (Apr 15, 2019)

I can't it good conscience give this fight to Sanji based solely on assumption. 
I think he will be stronger than DD by the end of this arc but until he shows actual feats I have to give fight to DD. That is only right. 
Though I don't think this will be stomp anymore. Strawhats especially M3 gets stronger every arc. Dressrosa is like 3 arcs old. 
It should be bare minimum Mid diff fight IMO. Nothing lower than that. Sanji is obviously not going from getting stomped to beating DD within span of single arc. 
So DD mid diffs Sanji for time being. This will change when Sanji hopefully fights Queen.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 15, 2019)

Amol said:


> I can't it good conscience give this fight to Sanji based solely on assumption.
> I think he will be stronger than DD by the end of this arc but until he shows actual feats I have to give fight to DD. That is only right.
> Though I don't think this will be stomp anymore. Strawhats especially M3 gets stronger every arc. Dressrosa is like 3 arcs old.
> It should be bare minimum Mid diff fight IMO. Nothing lower than that. Sanji is obviously not going from getting stomped to beating DD within span of single arc.
> So DD mid diffs Sanji for time being. This will change when Sanji hopefully fights Queen.



If Sanji beats queen he beats the dog shit out of Doflamingo.


----------



## MYJC (Apr 15, 2019)

For now Sanji gets mid-diffed. Even with the RAID suit he's still <<Dressrosa Law or Luffy.

Doflamingo will have to take him somewhat more seriously but Sanji still gets overwhelmed.


----------



## Jin san (Apr 16, 2019)

We've already seen sanji fight doffy. It ended with sanji getting no diffed


----------



## ImpalerDragon (Apr 16, 2019)

Sanji wins easily. He fight pageone and defeat him offscreen who is arguably as powerful like gear 4 and Doflamingo.


----------



## X18999 (Apr 21, 2019)

Jin san said:


> We've already seen sanji fight doffy. It ended with sanji getting no diffed



Due to ignorance about doflamingo's ability... he would have done better (sure not too much but some) if he had known about the Ito Ito no Mi.


----------



## Gledania (Apr 21, 2019)

Muah said:


> It's impossible for somebody to keep posting and never say shit but yet here you are. *I keep reading your post in a 5 year old voice because that's your identity on this forum. a kid who says I want I want i want. Even Sakura has matured over the years better, her and her shit husband*.
> 
> You don't understand why the invisibility fruit is important  and you have no idea the effect COO has on it. *Just admit it and stop stomping around this thread like a little girl*. *You don't know why Oda gave it to shiryuu *and like 10 chapters later gave it to Sanji. You can assume but you don't *fucking* know. You can say it was for a purpose or you can say it was deliberate but I know the thruth. You don't *fucking* know.
> 
> ...







Jesus christ I loled so hard I woke my neighbours

Were you drunk when you posted that shit ???


----------



## Gledania (Apr 22, 2019)

@Louis-954 the fact that you managed to trigger someone that much with emojis should be putted in the NF historical records.


----------



## Vivo Diez (Apr 23, 2019)

Surpasses DD in both speed and strength, but I still don't see him being strong enough to break out of parasite. Even if Queen isn't his dedicated opponent for the arc, if he beats anyone of Jack's caliber at the very least, he'd clearly be strong enough to rip himself out of parasite and beat the shit out of DD.


----------



## Dunno (Apr 23, 2019)

Jin san said:


> We've already seen sanji fight doffy. It ended with sanji getting no diffed


We've also seen Luffy get mid diffed by Caesar and low diffed by Monet. Doesn't mean he can't beat the crap out of them. Feats are feats, and feats are unreliable.


----------



## Onyx Emperor (Apr 24, 2019)

Not funny, Dofla will crush him without awakening.


----------



## DarkRasengan (Apr 24, 2019)

People seem to forget that luffys first encounter with Doffy went almost exactly how sanjis did. And plot made doffy not use parasite and overheat on luffy.


----------



## Kroczilla (Apr 24, 2019)

TBH I've always thought sanji losing easily to doffy was due to lack of knowledge rather straight up inferiority (though he would probably still lose regardless). 
That said, until we see how wano turns out, I think doffy deserves the benefit of doubt.


----------



## Gledania (Apr 24, 2019)

Kroczilla said:


> TBH I've always thought sanji losing easily to doffy was due to lack of knowledge rather straight up inferiority (though he would probably still lose regardless).
> That said, until we see how wano turns out, I think doffy deserves the benefit of doubt.




I still believe Sanji not reacting against doffy strings is PIS.
Dude dodged katakuri..... or maybe you need to know his ability before ?


----------



## Kroczilla (Apr 24, 2019)

Gledania said:


> I still believe Sanji not reacting against doffy strings is PIS.
> Dude dodged katakuri..... or maybe you need to know his ability before ?


TBH, doffy's movement against sanji wasn't exactly conventional so that might have contributed to sanji getting tagged. Being able to freely manipulate body movement via strings certainly > blue walk.


----------



## Gledania (Apr 24, 2019)

Kroczilla said:


> TBH, doffy's movement against sanji wasn't exactly conventional so that might have contributed to sanji getting tagged. Being able to freely manipulate body movement via strings certainly > blue walk.



So  .. no one can dodge parasite ?


----------



## Kroczilla (Apr 24, 2019)

Gledania said:


> So  .. no one can dodge parasite ?


Seems like parasite is an attack you need foreknowledge of, else you're fucked (except for the emperors probably). And I don't think it's that parasite is hard to dodge (Iirc Fujitora casually grabbed it out of the air before it could tag him when doffy unleashed it on all of dressrosa). I think it's that parasite is nigh impossible to detect especially mid-combat hence even guys like jozu and some other WB commander I can't recall right now easily got caught by it.


----------



## Gledania (Apr 24, 2019)

Kroczilla said:


> Iirc Fujitora casually grabbed it out of the air before it could tag him when doffy unleashed it on all of dressrosa)



Wasn't this anime only? I don't remember seing it in the manga.



Kroczilla said:


> parasite is nigh impossible to detect especially mid-combat hence even guys like jozu and some other WB commander I can't recall right now easily got caught by it.



This kind of shit hax power make the manga incoherent as fuck.

It means DD could have deafeated luffy with ease.
Imagine shanks not knowing anything about DD fruit getting parasite and dying from it.
Parasyte was a mistake


----------



## Kroczilla (Apr 24, 2019)

Gledania said:


> Wasn't this anime only? I don't remember seing it in the manga.


I watched it in the anime. Honestly can't be bothered to check if the scene's in the manga right now. 


Gledania said:


> Imagine shanks not knowing anything about DD fruit getting parasite and dying from it.
> Parasyte was a mistake


----------



## Corax (Apr 24, 2019)

Parasyte can likely catch anyone below Dofla lvl.,or someone of his who has bad CoO. Though in WCI arc Sanji showed some good CoO feats (including dodging Katakuri's FS attack),not sure why he didn't use CoO in Dressrosa arc.


----------



## Visa (May 7, 2019)

Corax said:


> Parasyte can likely catch anyone below Dofla lvl.,or someone of his who has bad CoO. Though in WCI arc Sanji showed some good CoO feats (including dodging Katakuri's FS attack),not sure why he didn't use CoO in Dressrosa arc.


PIS


----------



## barreltheif (May 7, 2019)

So much confused reasoning in this thread. Sanji will probably beat Queen at the end of this arc, 100-150+ chapters and a couple of powerups from now. At that point, he will be stronger than Doflamingo. Right now he might be able to give him mid diff.


----------



## Beast (May 7, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> 100-150+ chapters


Hopefully wano doesn’t last that long.


----------



## barreltheif (May 7, 2019)

MasterBeast said:


> Hopefully wano doesn’t last that long.



It will. We're 30 chapters in, and we're still in the middle of the "setup" stage of Wano. For instance, we just met the first of probably 5 former daimyo, and there are 5 more yakuza bosses to meet too.
The question isn't whether the arc will be extremely long - it will - but what Oda decides to do with that length. Hopefully Wano isn't full of garbage like dwarves and giant children.


----------



## Beast (May 8, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> It will. We're 30 chapters in, and we're still in the middle of the "setup" stage of Wano. For instance, we just met the first of probably 5 former daimyo, and there are 5 more yakuza bosses to meet too.
> The question isn't whether the arc will be extremely long - it will - but what Oda decides to do with that length. Hopefully Wano isn't full of garbage like dwarves and giant children.


The samurai and Smile users aren’t any better if I’m honest. The shorter the arc the better Oda usually is at writing them.


----------



## Shuyaku99 (Jun 16, 2019)

RS or not, Doflamingo mid/high diffs at best. End of arc Sanji could potentially win in a very close fight.


----------



## Yasu (Jun 16, 2019)

MasterBeast said:


> Hopefully wano doesn’t last that long.



They said it will be the longest arc until now (sot at least longer than Dressrosa)


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Jun 16, 2019)

Yasu said:


> They said it will be the longest arc until now (sot at least longer than Dressrosa)


 where?


----------

