# Where does Minato rank among these groups?



## Kyu (Oct 16, 2014)

In terms of overall strength. Living Minato in his prime. Pre-Edo Tensei/Jinchuriki.

_*Akatsuki*_

Pein
Itachi
Obito (MS)
Konan
Kisame
Sasori
Deidara
Kakuzu
Hidan

_*Sannin*_

Jiraiya
Tsunade
Orochimaru

_*Gokage*_

Onoki
Ay
Tsunade
Gaara
Mei


_*Konoha 11*_

Sakura
Ino
Shikamaru
Choji
Hinata
Kiba 
Shino
Lee
Neji
Tenten
Sai


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## Bonly (Oct 16, 2014)

I find him stronger then any Gokage+Sannin+K11 members while he's on the same general level of the six paths of pain


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## Harbour (Oct 16, 2014)

Pein-level obviously.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 16, 2014)

He is stronger than any sannin, gokage and K11. 6th paths of pain are either slightly above him or on his level while he is better than the rest of that akatsuki.


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## Jad (Oct 16, 2014)

Sought of weird you list the K11


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## Kadu (Oct 16, 2014)

Pein level.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 16, 2014)

*Akatsuki*:

Roughly on the same level as Obito, Pain and Itachi. Can beat each one of them depending on circumstances. Can't win or tie if facing a pair from that group. 

Can win/tie against some pairs of lesser members depending on circumstances. Unlikely to win against 3 lesser members but still possible.

*Sannin: *

Stronger than each individual member except possibly current Oro with prep. Some chances to beat a pair. Unlikely to beat all three even when pre-Zetsu Oro is used but can potentially tie. 

*Gokage:*

Stronger than each individual member. Can beat any pair high/extreme diff except for possibly Onoki+A. 3 is too much but some chances are still present depending on Kages used and circumstances. 

*Konoha 11*

Can arguably solo the whole group with high difficulty.


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## SSMG (Oct 16, 2014)

He'd be top three on this list along with obito and pain.


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## Trojan (Oct 16, 2014)

stronger than all of them. U_U
don't feel like going in details, and they are useless either way, so...


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## crisler (Oct 16, 2014)

He's already defeated obito, possibly the strongest bar itachi and pain.

so minato just needs to defeat these two....

unless oro somehow has a hidden card against minato...


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 16, 2014)

Hes stronger than everyone you listed


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## Godaime Tsunade (Oct 16, 2014)

_*Akatsuki*_

Pein
Itachi
*Minato*
Obito (MS)
Konan
Kisame
Sasori
Deidara
Kakuzu
Hidan

Minato is at the top of the High Kage tier, but Itachi slightly edges over him in terms of battle power.

_*Sannin*_

*Minato* 
Jiraiya
Tsunade
Orochimaru

The Sannin are either at the top of the Mid Kage Tier, or bottom of the High Kage Tier. Either way, Minato is stronger than them individually, even if they do have a chance at defeating him in battle. Two of them together would definitely be too much for him, though.

_*Gokage*_

*Minato*
Onoki
Ay
Tsunade
Gaara
Mei

These Kage are all Mid or High Kage tier, but still comfortably below Minato. Any two of them fighting Minato together would probably defeat him though.

_*Konoha 11*_

*Minato*
Sakura
Ino
Shikamaru
Choji
Hinata
Kiba 
Shino
Lee
Neji
Tenten
Sai

He's obviously stronger than these guys, though the notion of him soloing them all is laughable.  He could take on many of the weaker ones by himself (think Tenten, Shino, Ino, Shikamaru or Hinata) but the likes of Byakugou Sakura, Butterfly Chouji, Six Gated Lee and Three Headed Wolf-form Kiba working in unison would most definitely mess Minato up sooner or later, especially with all the other rookies supporting them.​​


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 16, 2014)

Equal to or below Pain, above everyone else


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## Rain (Oct 16, 2014)

1. itachi
2. minato
3. pain/obito
4. oro


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## Final Jutsu (Oct 16, 2014)

Minato > Pain > Obito> rest


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## Veo (Oct 16, 2014)

Pain/Obito level. 

Individually stronger than the rest.


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## Rocky (Oct 16, 2014)

_*Akatsuki*_


Pain
*Minato*
Itachi
Obito 
Kisame
Sasori
Deidara
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan

As always, it's debatable between Minato and Itachi. There are good arguments for both of them, but the Itachi in the Akatsuki had AIDS, so yeah...

_*Sannin*_


*Minato*
Jiraiya~Tsunade~Orochimaru


I'm not including Edo Tensei, so the Sannin are roughly equal in combat ability here. They are all pretty terrible match-ups for Minato, but he's definitely above them.

Minato can still feasibly lose to Orochimaru and Tsunade because regeneration shits on his known move pool, but those are just special cases. Konoha Attack Obito would have no-diffed either of those two tanks with that Kamui ambush, because Kamui essentially counters them.

_*Gokage*_


*Minato*
A
Tsunade
Onoki*
Gaara
Mei


Minato has already beaten the strongest member of the Gokage multiple times, and it's to the point that he doesn't think Minato can be surpassed. 

*If Onoki is in what I'm going to call Stone Will Mode, then he's the strongest of the five Kage. The normal Old Onoki with severe back problems is not stronger than A.

_*Konoha 11*_


*Minato*
Sakura

-gap-

Lee
Choji
The Rest


Take out Sakura, and Minato has a chance at soloing all of them at once. Sakura is closer to him in level, but she's really just Tsunade lite, and that puts her below the Sannin and Minato by extension.


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## Kazekage94 (Oct 16, 2014)

Depending on location Minato is below Gaara (Desert)

He isn't stronger than Pain, so he is below him

Minato is stronger than the Sannin and K11

Gokage
Gaara (Desert)
Minato
Gaara (Normal Terrain)/Ay
Ohnoki
Mei/Tsunade


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## Kyu (Oct 16, 2014)

Groups in the op are listed in no particular order btw.



Jad said:


> Sought of weird you list the K11



I was gonna put the Jins instead, but it's sorta hard to rank them based off of their feats as ET.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 16, 2014)

Not factoring individual match ups, I don't think he is necessarily stronger than Itachi, Obito and Pain. It is hard to rank them among themselves.

As for the rest of the groups, I'd comfortably place him on the number 1 spot.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 16, 2014)

He's equal to Pain, and above Obito and Itachi. 

Obito and Itachi are 1 on 1 fighters, they don't have any supporting abilities or techniques to dominate a battlefield for extended periods. 

Itachi wouldn't be capable of protecting or enhancing most of his allies on the battlefield, and he wouldn't last very long in most battle scenarios. Obito's efficiency begins and stops at his own hands, the threat of his technique is entirely taijutsu-based: he has to touch you do defeat you. Now, this is pre-war arc Obito. War-arc Obito had a massive Katon, warped weapons, was armed with Gunbai, had a Rinnegan, paths and Gedo Mazo. And he still needed Naruto to pursue him to even be capable of threatening to Naruto (come to me so I can touch you), if Naruto were avoiding him he'd be absolutely no threat. 

Minato + Pain have top-tier offensive and top-tier defense, along with abilities that are capable of supporting allies (BT/ST/CST/CT, Head Laser, Chakra Absorption, Battlefield dominating/stealth summons, shared vision, 6 bodies, Sensing) (battlefield dominating summons, flying thunder god warping, SM enhanced Rasengan, Death Reaper Seal, time/space barriers, advanced seals, chakra sharing, sensing/earth vibration sensing).

In short, they're more versatile than Obito and Itachi, so they'd be more useful in most scenarios. Itachi and Obito are not built to be supporting characters, they can't protect hundreds of men on a battlefield, and they cannot enhance the efficiency of those hundreds of men.


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## Hand Banana (Oct 16, 2014)

I don't see Minato taking on TenTen seeing what she can do with the fan.


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## Rocky (Oct 16, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Gokage
> Gaara (Desert)
> Minato
> Gaara (Normal Terrain)/Ay
> ...



Uh, no. Without the desert, Gaara can't do shit to Tsunade and Onoki is a nightmarish match up for primarily stationary fighters like Gaara. They also beat far more opponents than he does. 

Even in the desert, I still don't see Gaara beating a wider range of people than Minato would. Though he may be capable of beating Minato due to the match up.


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 16, 2014)

Minato is clearly above everyone stated on the list. The only ninjas that are even remotely close to him are Pain and Obito, with Itachi lagging behind.


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## Turrin (Oct 16, 2014)

*Akatsuki*

Minato is on the same general level as Sasori, Kakuzu, Itachi, Obito, and Kisame. Granted I think Minato is the strongest (or most complete) of them all, but I don't see Mianto being far enough above any of them to warrant placing him an entire "level" higher. I don't really see Itachi, Obito, Sasori, Kakuzu, and Kisame beating Minato, but they'd push him to high diff (or perhaps even to using Shiki Fuujin, forcing a draw). 

On the other hand he's above Deidara and Hidan enough to imo warrant him being a on a whole other "level". He'd low diff both of them with a few FTG usages and a Kunai.

Konan is a bit tougher as her power greatly depends on how much paper she has at her disposal, and therefore her level wavers.

Pain imo is a entire level above Minato, Kakuzu, Itachi, Obito, and Kisame. I just don't see any of them being able to defeat Pain w/o advantages and the right techniques; or being able to accomplish Pain's feats. Dude solo'd the entire leaf village w/o issue and than still went on to fight someone whose at the same level as the above Shinobi (who had prep + knowledge), won, and than proceeded to fight KN6-8 whose at the same "level; as the above Shinobi, implied he could win, and than finally "lost" after having to fight SM-Naruto again. I put "lost" in quotes though because in reality he weakened Naruto enough that Nagato would have beaten him if they fought.

*Sannin*
All of them are the same "level", but Minato is the strongest of the bunch (or most complete), unless were counting Orochimaru w/ Edo-Tensei, in which case Orochimaru is a level above Minato w/ Edos.

*Gokage*
Same deal, as the Sannin, all the same "level", but Minato is the strongest (or most complete)

*Konoha 11*
K11 are for the most part multiple "levels" inferior to Minato. The only one that isn't is Sakura, and if Kishi is to be believed she is actually a "level" above Minato. Though outside of support I don't think Kishi did enough to illustrate it and based on feats Minato would at least force a draw with Shiki Fuujin.

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Granted depending on DBIV Info I might re-evaluate Minato's placement. Like if he got all 5s or the DB reveals more info about RasenFlashDance/Hakke-Seal which turn out to be very hax, than he could move up to Pain's "level", but i'm not seeing it just yet.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 17, 2014)

Minato in the same class as Sasori and Kakuzu?

Turrin, Sasori was defeated by Chiyo and Early ship Sakura, Kakuzu was defeated by KN0 Wind-arc Naruto and Kamui restricted Kakashi. 

If we go as far as to break down them critically, they aren't nearly as useful as Minato in most situations. He is one of the most well-rounded ninja in the verse, he's near the top in almost any theoretical category save durability and personal genjutsu. 

Problem is people look at it as who would he beat, when the reality is the level of a ninja is not who he'd beat, but how versatile he is. The only ninja with more versatility in this thread is Nagato (Paths), the next one after Minato is probably Sage Mode Jiraiya, but his versatility isn't enough to put him over Obito and Itachi who excel too far beyond him in certain categories.

I refuse to power scale ninja based on what would happen in a 1v1 match up, a battlefield (war) is where a ninja is most valuable, and Minato would be infinitely more useful than most of the ninja in this thread in a war.


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## Kazekage94 (Oct 17, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Uh, no.Without the desert, Gaara can't do shit to Tsunade and Onoki is a nightmarish match up for primarily stationary fighters like Gaara. They also beat far more opponenis s than he does.


No proof. Gaara beats both in a normal terrain. Due to flight and distance Gaara makes all of T sunades attacks useless. Once he grinds up that extra sand which he can it's a done deal. Tsunades attacks cant hitGaara and she is too slow to evade his sand.

After the 2nd Mizukage fight In Gaara had to protect him, he isnt stationary anymore. He is also intelligent with clones. Ohnoki has back problems. Gaara also has the ability to create sand from nowhere to disrupt Jinton.



> Even in the desert, I still don't see Gaara beating a wider range of people than Minato would. Though he may be capable of beating Minato due to the match up.


I do actually. Maybe not more but he can beat just as many levels of opponents easier than Minato could.


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## ARGUS (Oct 17, 2014)

Kyu said:


> _*Akatsuki*_
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Minato in the same class as Sasori and Kakuzu?
> 
> Turrin, Sasori was defeated by Chiyo and Early ship Sakura, Kakuzu was defeated by KN0 Wind-arc Naruto and Kamui restricted Kakashi.


Sasori went up against the worst possible match ups for himself who had prep, and still he allowed himself to be defeated for emotional reasons. If anyone of these elements are removed Sakura and Chiyo loose, and if the antidotes are removed they would have been defeated easily the moment Sandaime-Kazekage came out. 

Kakuzu lost two hearts before Naruto showed up. The first of which being taken out by an ambush enacted by all of team 10 and Kakashi. The second of which by utilizing a strategy developed by one of the smartest characters in the verse w/ prep. Than KN0-Naruto barely managed to defeat Kakuzu w/ FRS, after having to be saved by Yamato/Kakashi. 

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Obviously putting Minato would dominate if we just switched him with Kakuzu or Sasori in ether scenario, but that doesn't translate to the same difficulty Sasori/Kakuzu faced because Minato has a different fighting style.



> f we go as far as to break down them critically, they aren't nearly as useful as Minato in most situations. He is one of the most well-rounded ninja in the verse, he's near the top in almost any theoretical category save durability and personal genjutsu.
> Problem is people look at it as who would he beat, when the reality is the level of a ninja is not who he'd beat, but how versatile he is. The only ninja with more versatility in this thread is Nagato (Paths), the next one after Minato is probably Sage Mode Jiraiya, but his versatility isn't enough to put him over Obito and Itachi who excel too far beyond him in certain categories


I said that he was more well rounded and is why I consider him stronger than Kakuzu or Sasori. The question is whether he's so much better/stronger than he deserves to be placed on an entirely different level than them, something I did not see from him. Though Kakuzu and Sasori are very well rounded in their own right.



> I refuse to power scale ninja based on what would happen in a 1v1 match up, a battlefield (war) is where a ninja is most valuable, and Minato would be infinitely more useful than most of the ninja in this thread in a war.


Rating them on who is the most valuable in a war, would change things drastically and ultimately depend on how effectively their commander utilized their skills and what shinobi they were fighting alongside. Hidan could be one of the most valuable assets in a war, if used effectively. Like having Ninja team go out and grab blood and than bring it back to Hidan for Vodoo ritual. Sasori could be extremely useful if every time a powerful deceased shinobi was defeated it was brought to Sasori to transform into a Sandaime-Kazekage type puppet. Same thing with Kakuzu and his hearts. Deidara teamed up with Mabui would be the most broken thing ever as they could just teleport C3 bombs where ever they want to nuke the enemy.

So I don't think how well they would fight in war is a good indicator of their abilities as it depends more on the abilities of others. 

I think considering how their strength is portrayed and how they would perform in various different matches against shinobi at certain levels is a much better indicator than that.

I see reasons why Minato is portrayed stronger than Kakuzu and Sasori, and I see reasons why he'd out-perform them in various situations, but I don't see reasons why he is an entire "level" beyond them, and match up/situational advantages aside I don't see Minato low diffing someone that would give Sasori or Kakuzu high-diff or defeat them.

I will admit that characters like Obito and Minato are difficult to rank


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 17, 2014)

I don't see how you could put someone like Kazkuz even remotely close to Minato , lets not even talk about the feats defeating the guy that bossed Kakuzu around , was able to seal Kurama , was able to deflect 9-10 tailed beast bombs like they were nothing , was able to hold his own against both Bee and Raikage who both are maybe a little stronger than Kakuzu or Sasori at worst maybe close in level, Minato's feats even in base are just flat out remarkable , he was for about 90% of this manga a major benchmark for Naruto and it really wasn't until the shinobi war was he truly considered stronger than Minato, even the hype , after he just squashed Kazkuzu albeit with just 2 hearts , Kakashi goes on to say that only Naruto can surpass the 4th , why even say surpassing the 4th is a big deal if he were only as strong as the guy he just defeated , if he were only as strong as the Sasori or equal to the Sannin , even Jiraiya's own words states he thought Minato was one of the most talented shinobi he had ever seen , and with his breath of knowledge of the shinobi world, and the fact he was there student of Sarutobi who was considered the strongest in his Prime suggest , those words coming from Jiraiya hold wait , then the arrogant prideful Raikage states he thought Minato was unsurpassable and even after Naruto had mastered the Kurama chakra , he still had to prove he had Minato's potential.


Really the only evidence of Minato remotely struggling in battle was against Juubito who even Hashirama admitted was stronger than him, Minato is on another level of any atakuski member sans Pain, and I think if SM Naruto can destroy the Pain bodies , Minato could also with FTG, Minato watched the battle with Pain and he wasn't even concerned as he had already stomped out his leader.

I can almost without a doubt guarantee that when the datebook comes out he'll be amongst the top 5-7 shinobi in Narutoverse


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## Ghost (Oct 17, 2014)

Minato is up there with Pain, Obito and Itachi.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 17, 2014)

> Sasori went up against the worst possible match ups for himself who had prep, and still he allowed himself to be defeated for emotional reasons. If anyone of these elements are removed Sakura and Chiyo loose, and if the antidotes are removed they would have been defeated easily the moment Sandaime-Kazekage came out.


The reasons are irrelevant, you could give Chiyo and Sakura advanced knowledge on Minato and they wouldn't last 5 seconds. 

He's not in Minato's class. 



> Kakuzu lost two hearts before Naruto showed up. The first of which being taken out by an ambush enacted by all of team 10 and Kakashi. The second of which by utilizing a strategy developed by one of the smartest characters in the verse w/ prep. Than KN0-Naruto barely managed to defeat Kakuzu w/ FRS, after having to be saved by Yamato/Kakashi.


Barely managed? He successfully feinted him two times with 3 bunshins, fresh out of training. 

You've got to be kidding me man.

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> Obviously putting Minato would dominate if we just switched him with Kakuzu or Sasori in ether scenario, but that doesn't translate to the same difficulty Sasori/Kakuzu faced because Minato has a different fighting style.


Minato's fighting style is more versatile than Sasori and Kakuzu's, that's the bottom line. 




> I said that he was more well rounded and is why I consider him stronger than Kakuzu or Sasori. The question is whether he's so much better/stronger than he deserves to be placed on an entirely different level than them, something I did not see from him. Though Kakuzu and Sasori are very well rounded in their own right.


He does, because he'd not only shit stomp both of them, he'd be infinitely more useful in almost every possible scenario imaginable. 

Minato's value skyrockets when placed on a battlefield, because he not only can teleport himself- but other ninja with different abilities. You HIGHLY underrate the effectiveness of FTG when instituted into an army. He can warp anyone and any attack anywhere he wants- instantly. Something as basic as instant travel between battlefields would have been taken care of by Minato. 



> Rating them on who is the most valuable in a war, would change things drastically and ultimately depend on how effectively their commander utilized their skills and what shinobi they were fighting alongside. Hidan could be one of the most valuable assets in a war, if used effectively. Like having Ninja team go out and grab blood and than bring it back to Hidan for Vodoo ritual. Sasori could be extremely useful if every time a powerful deceased shinobi was defeated it was brought to Sasori to transform into a Sandaime-Kazekage type puppet. Same thing with Kakuzu and his hearts. Deidara teamed up with Mabui would be the most broken thing ever as they could just teleport C3 bombs where ever they want to nuke the enemy.


Hidan wouldn't be more useful than Minato. Minato would have wiped out thousands of Zetsu if he started early in the war, and Zetsu don't bleed, nor would stabbing them in areas where organs don't exist (Hidan's punctures) kill them.

We're not talking about prep for a fight- we're talking about actually fighting on a battlefield. Sasori's zombie puppets are irrelevant the moment he's thrown on the battlefield with his base arsenal. 

Mabui's technique is lightning-based, it would instantly make the bomb a dud. 

What you're suggesting is exactly what Minato is capable of- teleporting attacks to an opponent. He can do that casually. Attacks can enter his barrier and appear kilometers away, he instantly makes every ninja's arsenal extremely long range. Throw C3 in, Throw COFRS in, Throw Jinton laser in, Throw a fireball in, doesn't matter- he'll warp it all directly to the enemies' position without them knowing. 

Not only offensively, but defensively, like when he warped the Juubidama, which dwarfed Gyuki and was about to wipe out nearly the entire ninja universe. That is how effective his techniques are, *everyone in this thread would have been wiped out by that Juubidama*. When granted enough chakra, Minato's techniques can save him, and thousands of comrades, from anything. If he were teamed with Sakura or Tsunade, he could warp almost anything. 



> So I don't think how well they would fight in war is a good indicator of their abilities as it depends more on the abilities of others.


Nothing you've suggested even remotely comes close to the value Minato would harbor on a battlefield. 



> I see reasons why Minato is portrayed stronger than Kakuzu and Sasori, and I see reasons why he'd out-perform them in various situations, but I don't see reasons why he is an entire "level" beyond them, and match up/situational advantages aside I don't see Minato low diffing someone that would give Sasori or Kakuzu high-diff or defeat them.


Because he'd perform better, because he'd trash them both, and because he's infinitely more useful as a supporting character on a battlefield- he is superior to them both, thus on another "level"

But it's not just his techniques- it's his genius. This is a man that could seal half of Kurama into Naruto with his bare palm instantly, and a man that could master Kurama's chakra an hour into Edo Tensei. That level of genius puts him well above Akatsuki pawns like Kakuzu and Sasori. 



> I will admit that characters like Obito and Minato are difficult to rank


They're very easy to rank, most of the people in this thread got it right.

Minato = Pain

Everyone else


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## Nikushimi (Oct 17, 2014)

Pain/Itachi/*Minato*
Obito (MS)

>Tier Gap>

A
Sasori
Deidara
Orochimaru/Jiraiya
Oonoki
Sakura
Tsunade
Kisame
Choji
Kakuzu
Gaara

>Tier Gap>

Mei
Konan
Lee
Kiba
Neji
Shino
Shikamaru
Sai
Hidan
Hinata
Ino
Tenten


Minato's in the top 3, out of all the shinobi listed here.


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## ueharakk (Oct 17, 2014)

above all of them with pain being equal or slightly below.


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> The reasons are irrelevant, you could give Chiyo and Sakura advanced knowledge on Minato and they wouldn't last 5 seconds.


Chiyo and Sakura have a fighting style well suited to facing Sasori, not Minato; that's why. Literally the match had nothing to do with level. Chiyo had a wealth of knowledge on how to deal with puppet users; Sakura prepped three get out of jail free cards. And Sasori ultimately allowed himself to be defeated. 



> Barely managed? He successfully feinted him two times with 3 bunshins, fresh out of training.


And the first time resulted in him needing to be saved by Yamato/Kakashi. The second time pushed him to his absolute limit and resulted in him dealing permanent damage to himself, to defeat an already weakened Kakuzu.



> Minato's fighting style is more versatile than Sasori and Kakuzu's, that's the bottom line.


Your beating a dead horse, because no one is contesting that.



> He does, because he'd not only shit stomp both of them, he'd be infinitely more useful in almost every possible scenario imaginable.


And I disagree on both accounts.



> Minato's value skyrockets when placed on a battlefield, because he not only can teleport himself- but other ninja with different abilities. You HIGHLY underrate the effectiveness of FTG when instituted into an army. He can warp anyone and any attack anywhere he wants- instantly. Something as basic as instant travel between battlefields would have been taken care of by Minato.


So does Kakuzu and Sasori's if used effectively.

Kakuzu can grab Kekkai Genkai hearts and just keep upgrading. He could eventually get a Jinton heart or Futton Heart by defeat Mei or Onoki once he became powerful enough. Sasori could grab power ninja and turn them into human puppets that still retain their abilities. 



> Hidan wouldn't be more useful than Minato. Minato would have wiped out thousands of Zetsu if he started early in the war, and Zetsu don't bleed, nor would stabbing them in areas where organs don't exist (Hidan's punctures) kill them.


Wow, so were deciding how useful Hidan would be based on him being put on one specific side of one specific war. That seems silly as hell to me. 



> We're not talking about prep for a fight- we're talking about actually fighting on a battlefield. Sasori's zombie puppets are irrelevant the moment he's thrown on the battlefield with his base arsenal.


Than your not talking about most wars, as most wars span many years and have tons of down time for Sasori to transmute humans into puppets. Once again your evaluating Sasori based on a single war, which really devolved into a fight with Juubi/Madara/Obito/Kaguya more than being a real representation of the typical war.



> Mabui's technique is lightning-based, it would instantly make the bomb a dud.


Maybe or maybe Mabui could control the lightning not to do that. Beyond that there are tons of usages for Deidara's bombs outside Mabui's lighting anyway.



> What you're suggesting is exactly what Minato is capable of- teleporting attacks to an opponent. He can do that casually. Attacks can enter his barrier and appear kilometers away, he instantly makes every ninja's arsenal extremely long range. Throw C3 in, Throw COFRS in, Throw Jinton laser in, Throw a fireball in, doesn't matter- he'll warp it all directly to the enemies' position without them knowing.


You act as if being able to warp away some attacks is vastly better than increasing ones war potential exponentially over time or being able to create tons of bombs that can be used on multiple different fronts at once and solo Shinobi at mass, or being able to kill anyone who ones forces bleed. I simply disagree with that.



> But it's not just his techniques- it's his genius. This is a man that could seal half of Kurama into Naruto with his bare palm instantly, and a man that could master Kurama's chakra an hour into Edo Tensei. That level of genius puts him well above Akatsuki pawns like Kakuzu and Sasori.


Minato's genius is reflected by the fact that he reached the level of Sasori and Kakuzu two immortals by an early age. It's also reflected by the fact that he was stronger than them, even if he was the same level. And finally reflected by the fact that when given a great power like Kurama he completely surpassed them.

Genius has nothing to do with strength however and in no way necessitates him being an entire level beyond those 2.



> They're very easy to rank, most of the people in this thread got it right.
> 
> Minato = Pain
> 
> Everyone else


Minato equal Pain doesn't make sense to me. Fusaku knew of Minato's strength and he considered Pain unbeatable without knowledge. That should tell you Pain > Minato. Additionally what Pain accomplished Minato could not. Pain would also defeat Minato. 

Now maybe there is more we don't know about Minato; Hakke Seal, Rasen-Flash-Dance, etc... that could put him there and I have no problem with that being the case, but I have not seen Minato demonstrate skills that puts him on par with the power of Pain's Rinnegan


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## Kazekage94 (Oct 18, 2014)

Pain > Minato >> Itachi


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## Turrin (Oct 18, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> I don't see how you could put someone like Kazkuz even remotely close to Minato , lets not even talk about the feats defeating the guy that bossed Kakuzu around


Pain/Nagato bossed Kakuzu around. Obito acted as the fool, as Tobi back when Kakuzu was in the organization. 



> was able to seal Kurama


Come on dude, he was uniquely well suited for the task and had the back up of Uzamaki Kushina. If he outright defeated the Fox by himself he would be stronger than everyone bar Hashirama-class and above. But that's not the case. 



> was able to deflect 9-10 tailed beast bombs like they were nothing


Due to the type of fighter he is he can accomplish things Sasori and Kakuzu can not, but the reverse is also true. Just like Minato would die if he was hit by a well placed Kunai, while Kakuzu and Sasori can tank upper-level jutsu like nothing. Etc.... And he teleport Juubi TBB like it was nothing when he had the chakra of the Kurama to refill his tank and passive edo regen. When in base teleporting things that large took a-lot out of him. 



> was able to hold his own against both Bee


Base-B managed to still defend his attack, while being pre-marked due to having to save Ei. I don't think that necessarily helps your case.



> and Raikage who both are maybe a little stronger than Kakuzu or Sasori at worst maybe close in level


Ei is like the weakest (or one of the weakest) on the "level" of Kakuzu/Sasori/Minato, while Minato is one of the strongest and happens to excels Ei in the main area that makes Ei dangerous. So it's not surprising to me that Minato would be depicted in the way he was against Ei.

However even with that in mind, Minato would not really have an easy time against Ei, since Raiton no Yoroi and Ei's durability would make it difficult for Minato to take him down. Which again does not really support the case that he's an entire "level" above Ei/Kakuzu/Sasori. 

----------

So really the battle was just Minato demonstrating why he's faster than Ei. Than having his attack defend by Base-B. If Minato fought both Ei and B, to the death, Minato would certainly have lost; unless one or both of them were much weaker than they are now, in which case it would also be an irrelevant point to make.



> Minato's feats even in base


You know i'm only talking about Base-Minato right? KCM/BM-Minato is indeed an entire "level" above these guys. 



> he was for about 90% of this manga a major benchmark for Naruto and it really wasn't until the shinobi war was he truly considered stronger than Minato, even the hype


And incidentally it's only in the war that Naruto reaches an entirely different "level" than Sasori and Kakuzu.



> after he just squashed Kazkuzu albeit with just 2 hearts


So Kakuzu > Wind-Arc Naruto, as Kishi had to give him handicaps for Wind-Arc Naruto to barely win. That should place Kakuzu around the same "level" as Post-SM Naruto, but beneath Naruto after he gained successive power ups in the War-Arc. Which fits exactly where Base-Minato's at. With the only variation being that, Base-Minato is stronger than Post-SM Naruto, while Kakuzu is weaker than Post-SM Naruto, but in both cases not enough to justify an entirely different "tier".



> Kakashi goes on to say that only Naruto can surpass the 4th


He's talking about Rasengan, not overall strength. You know that as well as I do, so let's not play this game. As otherwise we can also pretend that Fusaku's comment referred to overall strength, rather than Sennin Modo, and in which case that means Pain-Arc Naruto > Minato, and that still would definitively place him around Kakuzu "level".



> why even say surpassing the 4th is a big deal if he were only as strong as the guy he just defeated


Because he needed extreme advantages to defeat Kakuzu. And Minato is still stronger than Kakuzu, just not enough to warrant being placed in a whole other "level". And Minato also represents a benchmark for Naruto in many others ways besides strength. Such as the traits that made him such a good Hokage, Rasengan, and so on. 



> if he were only as strong as the Sasori or equal to the Sannin


Naruto only had to deal with one antagonist pre-war arc that was above Sannin "level"; Pain. But Pain was handicapped to the point where he wasn't really a threat above the Sannin anyway, sans CT, but that was against Kyuubi more than Naruto. So Naruto pretty much wasn't fighting antagonists that were stronger than the Sannin until the War-Arc, and that's the same time he became stronger than Base-Minato. 

Moral of the story being that the Sannin represent the highest "level" we saw for 90% of this manga, so Minato being on it (albeit stronger than them), does not in anyway make him a less difficult goal to achieve.



> even Jiraiya's own words states he thought Minato was one of the most talented shinobi he had ever seen


Yes and his talent is represented in the fact that by his mid 20s to at most early 30s he was able to achieve the same "level" of strength as characters that have had decades to hone their craft, like the Sannin, Sasori, or Kakuzu. 



> then the arrogant prideful Raikage states he thought Minato was unsurpassable


The shinobi that Ei could be comparing Minato to were all Sannin/Kakuzu/Sasori "level" old men. So obviously if he saw a 20s-30s dude come along that is already on that "level" and in-fact the strongest of the bunch, not to mention triumphing him in his main area of expertise, he'd consider the dude to be unsurpassable, as no one could catch Minato's growth-rate and indeed he was already the strongest. 



> and even after Naruto had mastered the Kurama chakra , he still had to prove he had Minato's potential.


And potential has what to do with strength? Obviously Minato had some of the greatest potential in the series considering how strong he had become at such a young age. If Minato had not died he would have probably mastered Sennin Modo and eventually developed his own elemental Rasengan. Along side many other Jutsu. But he did die, and never achieved that potential in life.



> Really the only evidence of Minato remotely struggling in battle was against Juubito who even Hashirama admitted was stronger than him


No ones holding that against him. My issue with him is that he never demonstrated what I'd consider the next "level" of strength. He wasn't demonstrating insane powers like Nagato's Rinnegan abilities. Danzo's Uchiha/Senju/Shisui-Mangekyo powers, Perfect control over a Tailed-Beast, etc.... 

And from a NBD standpoint, I can't see Minato being an entire "level" beyond characters that would give him high to extremely high diff, with maybe the easiest match ups giving him mid diff. 



> Minato is on another level of any atakuski member sans Pain, and I think if SM Naruto can destroy the Pain bodies , Minato could also with FTG, Minato watched the battle with Pain and he wasn't even concerned as he had already stomped out his leader.


Minato would have a chance to beat Pain if he was in the same situation as Naruto. However in a fair fight Minato would loose to Pain. Fusaku/Shima knew of Minato's strength, and even they thought that Pain was unbeatable without someone possessing knowledge of his capabilities. Not saying Minato would get floored by Pain, but he'd loose to Pain before even reaching Nagato.



> I can almost without a doubt guarantee that when the datebook comes out he'll be amongst the top 5-7 shinobi in Narutoverse


And if the DB comes out with more information on Minato's capabilities or jutsu, that indicate he's stronger than he seems to be now, than I have no problem placing him higher, but until then I have not seen enough from him to place him an entire "level" higher than these characters.

But having the top 5-7 stats is really not going to change my opinion until we see where other characters are placed. I mean if Minato gets a 35.5 or 36, yet is one of the best stats in the DB, because most other higher level characters get between a 32.5 to 35.5, that's really not going to change my opinion. 

What will matter to me when it comes to stats, is if Minato scores well above certain characters. Like if Minato scores a 38-40, than that's going to be an undeniable indication to me that he is suppose to be seen as well beyond the "level" of people like the Sannin/Itachi/Kakuzu/Sasori.  If he scores lower than that than what will matter is looking at the stats themselves and what they imply. Like did he get a 5 in str or 5 in Genjutsu, etc.... and how that would augment his battle prowess above what we already know.

-------
Though I think if there are any major game changers with Minato it's more likely to be in his Jutsu entries. Like if Kishi explains in detail how Hakke-Seal or RasenFlashDance work, that could change his position.

Edit: I should also say that when it comes to placing characters on certain "levels" or "Tiers" it ultimately depends on how broad or narrow your making these tiers, and that is why it's so difficult for most people to come to a consensus. Given what we saw in the war, my concept of "Tiers"/"levels" has gotten broader and broader. However if someone were to make narrower "Tiers""levels", with Kakuzu/Sasori/Kisame/Ei, being one narrow "tier""level" bellow characters like Sannin, Itachi, Minato, and Tobirama, is it necessarily wrong, IDK, but I wouldn't really have an issue with that. My point is more that Minato's abilities are better than these characters, but his abilities are not WAY-better than these characters, and therefore I put him in the same "tier""level".


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 18, 2014)

*DaVizWiz:*

Was Mabui's tensō no jutsu confirmed to be a raiton?


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## Nikushimi (Oct 18, 2014)

Putting Kakuzu on the same level as Minato is indefensible.

Even if Kakuzu might be a bad match-up for Minato, they are very obviously not even close to being the same level of shinobi.


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## StickaStick (Oct 18, 2014)

*Akatsuki:
*
(I'm assuming this is their Akatsuki variants specifically, so variants such as Rinnegan or DMS Obito and Edo Itachi aren't being taken into consideration.)

Pain
Minato
Obito / Itachi

Everyone else

*Sannin:
*
Oro w/ ET
Minato 
Jiraiya/ Tsunade

*Gokage:
*
Minato 
Everyone else

*Konoha 11:
*
Minato
Sakura

Everyone else


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 18, 2014)

> Pain/Nagato bossed Kakuzu around. Obito acted as the fool, as Tobi back when Kakuzu was in the organization.



Pain is much stronger than Kakuzu , and Pain was acting as dragon to Obito 




> Come on dude,



Thats like saying Hashirama was uniquely suited to defeating EMS Madara , that is apart of his arsenal in which makes him dangerous 



> Due to the type of fighter he is he can accomplish things Sasori and Kakuzu can not, .



I think teleporting a bijuu bomb >>> being hurt by a kunai, besides its not like any shinobi in the history of the manga could even hit Minato with Kunai , Minato is a physical freak like those 2 but his sheer speed gives him a better defense than those 2 , so what it would come down to is Minato would d much better against a kunia than Kakuzu or Sasori would do against a Bijuu 




> Base-B managed to still defend his attack, while being pre-marked due to having to save Ei. I don't think that necessarily helps your case.



It does help my case because if Kazuzu or Sasori were in the same case they would be stomped into oblivion , the flashback served as hype to Minato



> Ei is like the weakest (or one of the weakest) on the "level" of Kakuzu/Sasori/Minato,
> 
> I see it as Sasori>Raikage>Kakuzu , Minato was seen as being able to easily handle Ei and if Bee wouldn't there he would've been stomped that doesn't impy being on the same tier
> 
> ...


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## Gamaholic (Oct 18, 2014)

In terms of overall strength. Living Minato in his prime. Pre-Edo Tensei/Jinchuriki.

Akatsuki

Pein
Itachi
Obito (MS)
Konan
Kisame
Sasori
Deidara
Kakuzu
Hidan

Sannin

Jiraiya
Tsunade
Orochimaru

Gokage

Onoki
Ay
Tsunade
Gaara
Mei


Konoha 11

Sakura
Ino
Shikamaru
Choji
Hinata
Kiba 
Shino
Lee
Neji
Tenten
Sai

I do think Minato is stronger ( Much Stronger ) than Konoha 11 And stronger than all the five Gokage's And after all i think he is stronger than the three Sannin's but hes is less stronger then Akatsuki he can only take on Sasori, Deidara, Kisame, Zetsu and Konan


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## JuicyG (Oct 18, 2014)

Final Jutsu said:


> Minato > Pain > Obito> rest



I'm leaning toward this..

Only with knowledge versus Pain though.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More particularly I have ...

Pain
Minato (_Slightly, slightly_ below) 
MS Obito ( Was beat by Minato ....Not sure why people are placing him above ?)
Aids Itachi (More or less equal , though I see Obito slightly above due to being the elder Uchiha)

--The Rest---


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## Turrin (Oct 18, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Pain is much stronger than Kakuzu ,


I agree that Pain is much stronger than Kakuzu. 



> and Pain was acting as dragon to Obito


And Zabuza was acting as Dragon to Gato, does that mean Gato was stronger than Zabuza? Obito himself act as Dragon to Madara, despite being more powerful than Madara at times; when Madara was a fragile man or when Obito became the Juubi-Jin. Madara was acting as Dragon to BZ, despite Madara being stronger than BZ the entire time. And so on.

The reason Pain/Nagato was acting as the dragon is because he was stronger than Obito at that time, because he had Rinnegan.



> Thats like saying Hashirama was uniquely suited to defeating EMS Madara , that is apart of his arsenal in which makes him dangerous


When did I say it was not part of his arsenal. I said it was well suited to the situation and he had extreme amounts of help. If Uzamaki Mito came in and bound Madara/Kurama, and than Hashirama simply suppressed Kurama. We wouldn't consider Hashirama stronger then Madara/Kurama ether.



> I think teleporting a bijuu bomb >>> being hurt by a kunai, besides its not like any shinobi in the history of the manga could even hit Minato with Kunai , Minato is a physical freak like those 2 but his sheer speed gives him a better defense than those 2 , so what it would come down to is Minato would d much better against a kunia than Kakuzu or Sasori would do against a Bijuu


What kind of comparison is that lol. Of course Minato would do better against a random Kunai, than Sasori or Kakuzu would do against a Bijuu. That was never the issue. I was saying that both of them excel in different areas. 



> It does help my case because if Kazuzu or Sasori were in the same case they would be stomped into oblivion , the flashback served as hype to Minato


Base-B from over 16 years ago would stomp Kakuzu or Sasori into oblivion. Really dude 

Kakuzu and Sasori would soundly beat Base-B.



> I see it as Sasori>Raikage>Kakuzu , Minato was seen as being able to easily handle Ei and if Bee wouldn't there he would've been stomped that doesn't impy being on the same tier


Except Minato would not have stomped Ei. Unless you really going to argue that a mere Kunai attack would have broken Raiton no Yoroi, gone through Ei's high durability, and killed Ei, which is absurd.

Kakuzu is also stronger than Ei FYI.



> Yes he would thats why Bee had to step in to save him , and thats not even accounting for Minato's other abilities he could've used


Base-B stepped in to prevent Ei from being injured, not defeated. 



> shit 3rd is stronger than Ei , Minato would've came to the same conclusion as KCM Naruto against Sandaime


It's quite the beneficial assumption to believe that Minato w/o Hachibi's Intel would have come to the same conclusion as Naruto, and that Sandaime who knows of his weakness unlike Kabuto, would make the same mistake of giving Minato the opening to use that strategy. And it is also a beneficial assumption that Minato wouldn't get stuck by the Amber-Sealing-Jar w/o knowledge.



> I'm not saying minato would've won but it would take much greater dif than beating Kakuzu or Sasori , and Minato was just not seen as faster he was seen as a far greater shinobi in which Raikage was gauging Naruto's progress .


Much greater difficulty I doubt. More difficulty, sure, but I already said Minato is stronger than Kakuzu and Sasori.



> No he reached that level with Sage Mode , in the war he was reaching Pain's level


And what is your reasoning for this?



> Sage Mode Naruto would annihilate Kakuzu , .


So Naruto gets the advantage of starting in Sennin Modo and I assume Naruto also has the knowledge advantage?

If make a fair match, I.E. ether giving them no knowledge or both full knowledge, and Naruto starting in Base he would not stomp Kakuzu by any means. 



> Naruto's FRS was better than 4th so he had already surpassed Minato with Rasengan , with FRS he was saying that if Naruto keeps progressing at this rate eventually he would become stronger than the 4th , thats the difference , where as Fusaku was saying Naruto had already surpassed Minato when it comes to Sage Mode , Kakashi was talking about potential , Fusaku was talking about Sage Mode.


Even if you want to see it as potential it has nothing to do with strength, as Minato never achieved his full potential in life.



> How would Kakuzu even scratch Minato ?


How would Minato even scratch Kakuzu? Reaper Death Seal that takes his life?



> Minato was primarily a benchmark based upon strength as was the other Hokage , matter of fact it wasn't until Kakashi saw what Naruto pulled off late into the war did he say your stronger than the Hokage , it wasn't until what Naruto pulled off against Juubito did Tobirama say you could become stronger than Hashirama , yes there are other factors , but Naruto is mostly compare to his benchmarks based upon strength.


Okay, and that's the same time that Naruto reached an entirely different "level" than Kakuzu and Sasori.



> True I agree Pain was stronger than Naruto and the Sannin , but it wasn't by as much as you are stating , Naruto reached Sannin tier in Pain fight , and he reached Pain level in the war arc ,.


That's exactly as much as i'm stating lol. I agree that Naruto reached the Sannin "level" by the Pain fight and that he surpassed that level in the war.



> and the Sannin are much stronger than Kazkuzu as well


And this is based on, what?



> 20's and 30's, shit Kakashi was in his 20's and getting close to their level , yet his talent in Jiraiyia's eyes paled in comparison to Minato , Jiraiya has seen everyone and heard of everyone in the world he was talking about the GOATS Hiruzen and Hashirama, Madara in which he was taking Minato's talent , to me the only shinobi Minato and the Itachi's fell short of were the VOTE and Prime Hiruzen.


What? Kakashi was in his 30s in Part I and he'd be wrecked by the Sannin and Sasori, and he had the advantage of being gifted Sharingan as well as being extremely talented.



> Why would Raikage gauge Naruto from Kakuzu level when he knew of Onoki and Sannin who would wipe the floor with him , shit Raikage knew about atakuski , shit he knew Naruto defeated Pain , fucking Pain yet he still only judged Naruto by Minato's standards


We were talking about Minato, weren't we? If were talking about Naruto, than Ei already knew that Minato had been surpassed. 



> 20's-early 30's aint that young in this manga , we see a lot of shinobi die at early 30's ,


Actually it is. Can you please tell me how many shinobi who were in their 20s-early 30s were at the level of Kakuzu, Sasori, Sannin? And back in the time Ei thought Minato was unsurpassable I bet you couldn't list any Shinobi that Ei would have known off that was that strong at that age.



> he became strong enough in life to defeat the atakuski leader and seal the 9 tails in his son a feat that many shinobi in history couldn't accomplish , shit Hiruzen though only Minato could defeat Orochimaru w edo tensei who is much stronger than Kakuzu , matter of fact even after Naruto defeated Kakuzu Jiraiya was still salivating over Minato when he was talking to Tsunade.


What? Hiruzen thought Minato could defeat Orochimaru, he didn't know Orochimaru's Edo-Tensei powers at the time or really anything about Orochimaru's powers, and he suggested it would require Minato's life to do so. 



> FTG in itself is one of the most hax abilities in all the manga , shit it only struggled when Juubito came into play which was stronger than even Hashirama , also Minato mastered Uzumaki Fuinjutsu , the same shit that ws able to seal 9 tails in the first place , so I would say Uzumaki Fuinjutsu is on the level of those techniques , also Nagato Rinngean abilities pale in comparison to Sasuke, Madara, and Rikudo.


FTG is not on the level of those powers. Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu may be, but Minato was far from a master. He could not seal the full Kurama like Kushina and Mito could for instance.



> None of those would give him high diff , look at my tier characters like Danzo, Pain , Kushina , Tobirama they would give him high diff


Tobirama's fair. Kushina we know too little about. Danzo and Pain would decisively defeat him.

And your "tier" list is hardly the authority.



> Unbeatable based upon the shinobi he knew was alive


Where did he say that?



> Pain is a bad matchup for Minato considering Nagato controls Pain with Rods, FTG would take care of that , shit Naruto would've stomped Pain with no time limit and Minato with FTG doesn't have that going against him


What? Naruto w/o a SM timelimit would be god mode as he'd have infinite chakra and would rape the living hell out of Minato. But this is also ridiculous considering that Pain was heavily nerfed when fighting Naruto, who was heavily advantaged.



> Pain admitted if Jiraiya knew his secret he would've lost , I got the impression that Jiriaya was close but no cigar , same as his strength compared to Nagato, shit they are probably what Danzo/Hiruzen, Madara/Hashirama are to each other.


I don't even follow this.



> So the night of the Kyuubi and the War wasn't enough , because Kakuzu and Sasori would be stomped in every Minato scenario , shit Juubito just fucking sneezes and Kakuzu and Sasori die same as Kurama.


Literally anyone bar S-T users would suck in the Kyuubi Night scenario because they couldn't be everywhere at once like an S-T user. In the war Minato had numerous buffs, so bringing that shit up is just straight up dishonest, not that Minato did well against Juubito anyway.



> 35.5 is a good deal stronger than 32.5 but anyways I expect Minato to get stronger than 35.5


Yeah it is, but then Kakuzu has Jingo powers that aren't reflected by his stats. Like masked beasts and Tentacle Transformations.



> I don't think he's well beyond the Sannin or Itachi , I do think he's well beyond Sasori and Kakuzu though I got Minato at 37.5 which is a good deal stronger than 32.5


And again for me it will come down to the stats themselves, if that's the case.


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## Rocky (Oct 18, 2014)

Not seeing how Danzo has a reasonable chance against Minato unless he can pull off a no knowledge Koto Amatsukami before he gets speedblitzed.


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## Turrin (Oct 18, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Not seeing how Danzo has a reasonable chance against Minato unless he can pull off a no knowledge Koto Amatsukami before he gets speedblitzed.


The issue with a feat based comparison with Danzo is that his abilities are not well defined. For example

1) How does Koto hit the target. You'd think it would be with eye contact, but Danzo was able to cast it on Mifune without removing his bandages. So does the cast only need to be looking at the target, and it's more point and click like Amaterasu? And if not what is the trick to it that allows Danzo to cast it through his bandages. Heck Kotoamatsukami is not very well defined in general

2) Would sacrificing a MS with Shisui's Doryoku, has the same result as sacrificing Fodder Sharingan, for Izanagi. Or would Izanagi's duration be much great when sacrificing Shisui's eye.

When we have the answer to those questions we can have a proper discussions based on feats, but not really before then.

--------

Going off portrayal Danzo fought someone on Minato's "level" in the form of MS-Sasuke to a draw w/o Shisui's Mangekyo, so chance are with it he's above Minato. And even with the above being unknown aside it's not hard to see why the guy is so deadly.


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## Rocky (Oct 18, 2014)

Okay, we can go off portrayal. 

First off, Danzo was granted time to remove his arm brace prior to engaging Sasuke. Without that time, he would have been dead unless Shisui's eye can be used for Izanagi while on cool down. That handicap also gets him killed immediately against Minato, you know, one of the fastest guys in the verse.

Furthermore, I don't think drawing against Sasuke without Koto Amatsukami puts Danzo on a different tier than Sauce. I also don't think Sauce is equal to Minato. Minato is as strong as Itachi or stronger, and Sasuke was certainly not before he completed his Susano'o.


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## Ersa (Oct 18, 2014)

Minato is above all of the Akatsuki bar Nagato, Obito (Rinnegan and up) and Edo Itachi. He's leagues above any of the Gokage, stronger then any of the Sannin and K11.


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## Turrin (Oct 18, 2014)

Rocky said:


> First off, Danzo was granted time to remove his arm brace prior to engaging Sasuke. Without that time, he would have been dead unless Shisui's eye can be used for Izanagi while on cool down.


Literally no where in the manga was Danzo gaining time to remove his arm brace, made into this huge plot point where he is vulnerable while doing so. If Kishi wanted us to think so, he would have mentioned it, like anywhere or like at any point. To me that idea is 100% fanfiction used to underrate Danzo. 

If Danzo needed to remove the brace in a hurry he could have done so quicker or he could have very simply cut it off with Fuuton in an instant. 



> That handicap also gets him killed immediately against Minato, you know, one of the fastest guys in the verse.


If it's no knowledge or manga knowledge Minato is defeated by Kotoamatsukami, before he has a chance to do much of anything. If it's full knowledge than Danzo isn't getting blitz'd; he can use Fuutons to deflect FTG-Kunai and Minato with just his base-speed isn't blitzing someone who kept up with MS-Sasuke, than he releases Izanagi and it doesn't matter what Minato does for 10min.



> Furthermore, I don't think drawing against Sasuke without Koto Amatsukami puts Danzo on a different tier than Sauce. I also don't think Sauce is equal to Minato. Minato is as strong as Itachi or stronger, and Sasuke was certainly not before he completed his Susano'o.


If Danzo draws Sasuke w/o his greatest power, that obviously puts him on a different tier. Heck Itachi thought a crow armed with Kotoamatsukami could defeat EMS-Sasuke, so that should also say something about Danzo's strength. And regardless of whether you think Itachi or Minato are stronger than MS-Sasuke, they are on the same tier.


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## Rain (Oct 19, 2014)

Danzo is fodder for Minato.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 19, 2014)

I agree with Turrin, we have to wait for Databook 4 to be able to make a fair debate of Koto related match ups. As of now, that technique isn't well defined.

Theoritically, anyone who has Koto should be able to defeat everyone with it.

But all in all, I'd put Minato above Danzo and Sasuke, just going off portrayal.


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## Bkprince33 (Oct 19, 2014)

Nagato> pain = minato = itachi (healthy) = obito > Sick itachi > everyone else


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## Rocky (Oct 19, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Literally no where in the manga was Danzo gaining time to remove his arm brace, made into this huge plot point where he is vulnerable while doing so. If Kishi wanted us to think so, he would have mentioned it, like anywhere or like at any point. To me that idea is 100% fanfiction used to underrate Danzo.
> 
> If Danzo needed to remove the brace in a hurry he could have done so quicker or he could have very simply cut it off with Fuuton in an instant.



IIRC, it took him the entire duration of Obito's fight to remove it, and blasting it off with Futon would cut off his own arm in the process. I don't really see anything indicating that he could remove it faster than he did, but I'm open to changing my opinion if you have something.




> If it's no knowledge or manga knowledge Minato is defeated by Kotoamatsukami, before he has a chance to do much of anything. If it's full knowledge than Danzo isn't getting blitz'd; he can use Fuutons to deflect FTG-Kunai and Minato with just his base-speed isn't blitzing someone who kept up with MS-Sasuke, than he releases Izanagi and it doesn't matter what Minato does for 10min.



No knowledge doesn't necessarily mean Minato loses; it depends on who acts first.

Even with full knowledge, Minato's Kunai would be at Danzo's feet before he completed his hand seals, going off how fast Minato threw it at Madara.

Even if Danzo could deflect them, Minato could swap with a clone and throw one at his blind spot.



> If Danzo draws Sasuke w/o his greatest power, that obviously puts him on a different tier. Heck Itachi thought a crow armed with Kotoamatsukami could defeat EMS-Sasuke, so that should also say something about Danzo's strength. And regardless of whether you think Itachi or Minato are stronger than MS-Sasuke, they are on the same tier.



I don't think Koto Amatsukami is his greatest power...

Imo, ten minutes of complete immortality > one-time genjutsu that can be trolled by a clone feint.


----------



## Freechoice (Oct 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't think Koto Amatsukami is his greatest power...



Care to elaborate, friend?


----------



## Rocky (Oct 19, 2014)

I already said that I believe Izanagi is the better genjutsu.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 19, 2014)

> I agree that Pain is much stronger than Kakuzu.



So you think Pain is that much stronger than Minato to warrant another tier ?




> And Zabuza was acting as Dragon to Gato, does that mean Gato was stronger than Zabuza? Obito himself act as Dragon to Madara, despite being more powerful than Madara at times; when Madara was a fragile man or when Obito became the Juubi-Jin. Madara was acting as Dragon to BZ, despite Madara being stronger than BZ the entire time. And so on.



No Zabuza was more of a gun for hire, Obito wasn't stronger than Madara until Juubi got involved , but Obito throughout most of there story was weaker than Madara , just like Nagato was weaker than Obito, just like Madara was weaker than Kaguya.



> The reason Pain/Nagato was acting as the dragon is because he was stronger than Obito at that time, because he had Rinnegan.



How was Nagato stronger than Obito, shit Naruto after defeating Pain , couldn't even touch Obito , Obito with just Kumai was taking on Gai, Bee, Kakashi, and BM Naruto , even with more preparation than SM Naruto had against Pain , Konan still lost to Obito , if anything they were portrayed on the same level at best.




> When did I say it was not part of his arsenal. I said it was well suited to the situation and he had extreme amounts of help. If Uzamaki Mito came in and bound Madara/Kurama, and than Hashirama simply suppressed Kurama. We wouldn't consider Hashirama stronger then Madara/Kurama ether.



If Hashirama is able to suppress Kurama , its a much better feat than what Kakuzu or Sasori had shown , matter of fact the manga has made it a note to hype up those that are capable of controlling or suppressing a tales beast.




> What kind of comparison is that lol. Of course Minato would do better against a random Kunai, than Sasori or Kakuzu would do against a Bijuu. That was never the issue. I was saying that both of them excel in different areas.



The areas Minato excel in are > than what Sasori/Kakuzu excel in thats what I'm saying , matter of fact I cant see a single thing their better at besides durability and Minato with his defense wouldn't need it against anyone not named Juubito.




> Base-B from over 16 years ago would stomp Kakuzu or Sasori into oblivion. Really dude
> 
> Kakuzu and Sasori would soundly beat Base-B.



Bee at 16 was in control of Hachibi 



> Except Minato would not have stomped Ei. Unless you really going to argue that a mere Kunai attack would have broken Raiton no Yoroi, gone through Ei's high durability, and killed Ei, which is absurd.



Yes he would've had , Raikage couldn't touch him 



> Kakuzu is also stronger than Ei FYI.



Thats debatable 



> Base-B stepped in to prevent Ei from being injured, not defeated.



Well if he felt he had to save him he worried that the injury would do loads of damage and considering Minato sliced thru the 8 tails like butter , I think it wouldve been more than just a scratch.




> It's quite the beneficial assumption to believe that Minato w/o Hachibi's Intel would have come to the same conclusion as Naruto



Minato has shown to be more wise and intelligent in battle , if the man cant be hurt then maybe he could hurt himself , and besides Raikage hasn't shown his pops durability.



> Much greater difficulty I doubt. More difficulty, sure, but I already said Minato is stronger than Kakuzu and Sasori.



Yeah a good deal stronger 




> And what is your reasoning for this?



Naruto is always weaker than the enemy then surpasses them in the next arc 

Wind Arc Naruto was weaker than Kakuzu , then surpassed Kakashi

Pain Arc Naruto was weaker than Pain , then surpassed Jiraiya 

War Arc Naruto was weaker than Obito , then surpassed Minato 

I think in each of those fights he went up a tier , as I think all of those benchmarks represented a different tier , 

Kakuzu, Pain, Obito represents a different tier that Naruto reached 






> If make a fair match, I.E. ether giving them no knowledge or both full knowledge, and Naruto starting in Base he would not stomp Kakuzu by any means.



Frog Song , Multiple FRS, boss summons , its safe to say Naruto would have a very easy fight on his hands 




> Even if you want to see it as potential it has nothing to do with strength, as Minato never achieved his full potential in life.



He was close to it 




> How would Minato even scratch Kakuzu? Reaper Death Seal that takes his life?



Shit once he tags him its pretty much a wrap he could slice his head , off or redirect Kakuzu' projectiles back at him , not to mention Minato can use shadow clones to attack at the same time , Bunta squashing him ect.



> Okay, and that's the same time that Naruto reached an entirely different "level" than Kakuzu and Sasori.



Naruto reached a different level with them with Sage Mode 







> And this is based on, what?



Datascore, Feats , Hype, Portryal , better abilities 




> What? Kakashi was in his 30s in Part I and he'd be wrecked by the Sannin and Sasori, and he had the advantage of being gifted Sharingan as well as being extremely talented.



Kakashi in pt 2 was around the same as as Minato when he died as stated when they elected him to be Hokage .




> We were talking about Minato, weren't we? If were talking about Naruto, than Ei already knew that Minato had been surpassed.



What I'm saying is even after Naruto had the hype of defeating Pain he was still judging Naruto by Minato's standards.



> Actually it is. Can you please tell me how many shinobi who were in their 20s-early 30s were at the level of Kakuzu, Sasori, Sannin? And back in the time Ei thought Minato was unsurpassable I bet you couldn't list any Shinobi that Ei would have known off that was that strong at that age.



See Obito, Bee, Kabuto, Itachi, Gaara, Deidara, Sasuke, Naruto , Hiruzen became Hokage at a young age , shit so did Raikage , most strong shinobi are in their peak at mid 20's-30's.



> What? Hiruzen thought Minato could defeat Orochimaru, he didn't know Orochimaru's Edo-Tensei powers at the time or really anything about Orochimaru's powers, and he suggested it would require Minato's life to do so.



Sure thats just how strong Orochimaru was , but thats not to diminish Minato , it just goes to show that when the village was in a jam Minato was still that guy 



> FTG is not on the level of those powers. Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu may be, but Minato was far from a master. He could not seal the full Kurama like Kushina and Mito could for instance.



He couldn't seal Kurama , you mean after he had just fought Obito and saved the village , teleported Kurama, and also he couldn't seal the whole fox because he's not an Uzumaki like Mito, Kushina he doesn't have their chakra to contain it in life thats why he chose Naruto and killed himself , besides it was stated he knew every technique Kushina did , FTG defensive and support capabilities is hax as shit look at what he did in the war , and thats the thing even behind combat Minato is much greater in support.




> Tobirama's fair. Kushina we know too little about. Danzo and Pain would decisively defeat him.



Danzo and Pain would not decisively defeat Minato no one on the forums would agree with that even if they won it would be a slight margin.






> Where did he say that?



So your telling me that he wouldn't think Prime Hiruzen, Hashirama, EMS Madara couldn't defeat him based upon what he knew , and remember he was comparing Nagato by Rikudo standards because he only knew of one person with the Rinngean in history and we saw in the fight he paled in Comparison , so in his eyes yes a shinobi with the powers of Rikudo Sennin is unbeatable , but if he knew nothing of Nagato his immobility and the restrictions in using his Rinnegan.




> What? Naruto w/o a SM timelimit would be god mode as he'd have infinite chakra and would rape the living hell out of Minato. But this is also ridiculous considering that Pain was heavily nerfed when fighting Naruto, who was heavily advantaged.



Sure but what I'm saying is Minato with FTG could accomplish most of what Sage Mode Naruto accomplished albeit easier , same in Jiraiya's situation considering FTG would be a perfect counter.




> I don't even follow this.



Nagato/Minato

Itachi/Jiraiya

Tsunade/Orochimaru

Sasuke/Naruto

Nagato and Minato are most likely each others counterparts.




> Literally anyone bar S-T users would suck in the Kyuubi Night scenario because they couldn't be everywhere at once like an S-T user. In the war Minato had numerous buffs, so bringing that shit up is just straight up dishonest, not that Minato did well against Juubito anyway.



There are many people that wouldve done well that night , Madara, Hashirama, Kushina , Kabuto, Orochimaru , Nagato, 






> Yeah it is, but then Kakuzu has Jingo powers that aren't reflected by his stats. Like masked beasts and Tentacle Transformations.



OK


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## Turrin (Oct 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> IIRC, it took him the entire duration of Obito's fight to remove it, and blasting it off with Futon would cut off his own arm in the process. I don't really see anything indicating that he could remove it faster than he did, but I'm open to changing my opinion if you have something.


Why would he blast his arm with Fuuton when he can remove the brace with a Fuuton Kunai or just break the brace off by having Mokuton erupt from his arm.



> No knowledge doesn't necessarily mean Minato loses; it depends on who acts first.


So Danzo then.



> Even with full knowledge, Minato's Kunai would be at Danzo's feet before he completed his hand seals, going off how fast Minato threw it at Madara.


It's really nice to use feats that we have no clue when they actually occurred isn't. 

But let's use a realistic feat here Danzo, was able to activate Izanagi faster than Sasuke could attack him with Susano'o:
684:12

He used Mokuton to defend faster than Susano'o could attack him:
684:12

And straight up evaded a Susano'o attack:
684:12

So unless Minato's pulling out a Kunai, throwing it to right next to Danzo, and than FTG blitzing is all much faster than Susano'o, than what your saying doesn't make sense.



> Even if Danzo could deflect them, Minato could swap with a clone and throw one at his blind spot.


And by the time Minato has thought up this strategy, created a clone, swapped with the clone, slipped behind Danzo, thrown a Kunai from behind Danzo, and teleport to the Kunai to blitz; Danzo has long since activated Izanagi.



> I don't think Koto Amatsukami is his greatest power...
> 
> Imo, ten minutes of complete immortality > one-time genjutsu that can be trolled by a clone feint.


To bad Danzo and the author disagree with you. I mean fuck Danzo was willing to sacrifice 10 Izanagi usages just to wait out until Koto recharged.


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## Rocky (Oct 19, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Why would he blast his arm with Fuuton when he can remove the brace with a Fruuton Kunai or just break the brace off by having Mokuton erupt from his arm.



Because he can't fucking damage the eyes,  so doing anything wind related to his arm is bad idea. 

Maybe you would have a point if Danzo actually did this in the Manga. 



> So Danzo then



My money is on the yellow flash to act first.  



> So unless Minato's pulling out a Kunai, throwing it to right next to Danzo, and than FTG blitzing is all much faster than Susano'o, than what your saying doesn't make sense.



lol

Minato had a Kunai at Jubidara's feet and was in his face with Rasengan before Kakashi could even complete Kamui. I don't see Danzo doing much in response to such speed. 



> And by the time Minato has thought up this strategy, created a clone, swapped with the clone, slipped behind Danzo, thrown a Kunai from behind Danzo, and teleport to the Kunai to blitz; Danzo has long since activated Izanagi.



Haha good one. 

Danzo wouldn't even have the brace off,  especially if he's busy trying to deflect Kunai. 



> To bad Danzo and the author disagree with you. I mean fuck Danzo was willing to sacrifice 10 Izanagi usages just to wait out until Koto recharged.



He had an agenda. The target of Koto Amatsukami was _Obito_, not Sasuke.  Danzo didn't even contemplate using Koto on Sasuke. Actually, it was either use Koto on Tobi or sack it for Izanagi against  Sasuke.


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## Turrin (Oct 19, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> So you think Pain is that much stronger than Minato to warrant another tier ?


Yup



> No Zabuza was more of a gun for hire, .


Under that definition Kakuzu is also a gun for hire and so is Nagato Just instead of being bought with money they are bought with other promises (well in Kakuzu's case it probably was literally money).



> Obito wasn't stronger than Madara until Juubi got involved , but Obito throughout most of there story was weaker than Madara , just like Nagato was weaker than Obito,


Madara was a fragile old man for most of the time he interact with Obito. So yes Obito was stronger than Madara and remained that way until Madara was brought back as an Edo, but quickly surpassed him in strength again by taking in the Juubi. 



> just like Madara was weaker than Kaguya


Madara was manipulated by BZ not Kaguya.



> How was Nagato stronger than Obito


Vastly superior Dojutsu and Dojutsu techniques



> , shit Naruto after defeating Pain , couldn't even touch Obito , Obito with just Kumai was taking on Gai, Bee, Kakashi, and BM Naruto


Obito playing defense could survive for some time against EMS-Madara and Hashirama at the same time, it's just the nature of his ability. One has to realize how the ability works and think of ways to counter it to defeat Obito when he's playing defense. That doesn't mean he is beyond Madara or Hashirama in strength, it just means he's tough to put down when he's on the defensive.



> even with more preparation than SM Naruto had against Pain


Is Konan SM-Naruto "level"? Did Obito just defeat an entire village? Did Obito have his strongest ability on cool down? Did Obito go on to face KN6-8 after fighting Konan? Did he go on to fight another SM-Naruto level enemy after that? 

And all Naruto did was defeat a single one of Nagato's Jutsu. The real Nagato (or 7th-Path) never even bother to fight him, except for using a single black-rod which Naruto need KSM to overcome.



> If Hashirama is able to suppress Kurama , its a much better feat than what Kakuzu or Sasori had shown , matter of fact the manga has made it a note to hype up those that are capable of controlling or suppressing a tales beast.


By that logic Yamato > Kakuzu and Sasori.

Is it a feat, sure it is, and it shows that Minato is good at Fuuinjutsu. However just because Minato decided to specialize in Fuuinjutsu and had a super powerful Uzamaki Wife to aid him, and because of those things was able to seal Kurama, doesn't magically put him an entire tier above anyone who did not decided to specialize in Fuuinjutsu and did not have a super powerful Uzamaki Wife to aid them.



> The areas Minato excel in are > than what Sasori/Kakuzu excel in thats what I'm saying , matter of fact I cant see a single thing their better at besides durability


Sasori and Kakuzu both have greater raw-power than Minato. They also have more exp and knowledge than Minato given their ages. Sasori may very well be better at Genjutsu than Minato, while Kakuzu is physical stronger than Minato. They also have completely different specialities in Ninjutsu, which will perform better or worse depending on the situation. 



> and Minato with his defense wouldn't need it against anyone not named Juubito.


Wow what overrated nonsense this is. Minato can't be threatened by anyone whose not Juubi Jin level. Please spare me the BS.



> Bee at 16 was in control of Hachibi


B wasn't using anything except Base to fight Minato, so it's disengenious to say the least, to have Kakuzu and Sasori have to face B using V1/V2/Hachibi, while Minato faced Base-B.



> Yes he would've had , Raikage couldn't touch him


And how would he kill Raikage short of Shiki Fuujin?



> Thats debatable


Sure, they are the same "tier" afterall.



> Well if he felt he had to save him he worried that the injury would do loads of damage and


The scene doesn't really make sense, because from everything we've seen of Ei we know that the attack wouldn't have even gotten through the Raiton Shroud, however Kishi draws it as if Ei is in danger. So I don't really know how to read that scene other than ether assuming B wanted to avoid all injury to Ei, even not so significant ones or Ei's Raiton-Shroud/Durability was vastly inferior back then. 



> considering Minato sliced thru the 8 tails like butter , I think it wouldve been more than just a scratch.


Chidori Eisou is weaker than Chidori, and it cut through the Full Hachibi's tentacle like butter, yet Chidori did rather minor damage to Ei. So that really does not say much.



> Minato has shown to be more wise and intelligent in battle , if the man cant be hurt then maybe he could hurt himself , and besides Raikage hasn't shown his pops durability.


The problem is literally everything would need to go right for your scenario to come to pass. 

Minato would need to think of the strategy
Sandaime would have to make the same mistake as Kabuto
Minato would have to avoid Sandaime's attacks including the Jar, which means knowledge of it, before he thought of this

Chances are everything doesn't go right, every time they fight 



> Yeah a good deal stronger


Yet both of them would take him to at least Mid if not high diff if they fought. Kakuzu may even require him to draw with shiki fuujin



> Naruto is always weaker than the enemy then surpasses them in the next arc, etc...


I agree he went up a tier in each fight. He was bellow Kakuzu tier in that fight and won due to advantages, so he reached Kakuzu tier with the next power up, albeit was stronger overall.



> Frog Song , Multiple FRS, boss summons , its safe to say Naruto would have a very easy fight on his hands


Boss summons get raped. He doesn't even summon Shima and Fusaku IC.

Multiple FRS would work, but that's not an easy win. Naruto would have to by time to enter SM, which against Kakuzu and Sasori in a full knowledge scenario would be hard as hell. Than even after that it's not like they are totally helpless. He'd have to feint Kakuzu with multiple FRS again and probably the same for Sasori.



> He was close to it


The Sannin were still not over the hill at the age of 50-55. So are you seriously telling me that with 20-30 more years Minato would have made almost no progress.



> Shit once he tags him its pretty much a wrap he could slice his head , off or redirect Kakuzu' projectiles back at him , not to mention Minato can use shadow clones to attack at the same time , Bunta squashing him ect.


None of which would actually kill Kakuzu and if he's using Domu it wouldn't even do anything.



> Naruto reached a different level with them with Sage Mode


Great no substance, no support, no, nothing.



> Datascore


And I agree that the Sannin would wreck Kakuzu w/o Jingo. However with Jingo augmenting him the deficiency in stats should not prevent Kakuzu from reaching that "level".



> Feats/better abilities


Most of the Sannin don't have feats that are widely better than Jingo. Jiriaya's Sennin Modo and Orochimaru's recent Super Edo-Tensei, are the only things I can cite. But Jiraiya needs time to enter Sennin Modo, while Kakuzu does not need this time. Edo-Tensei is just tough to quantify in general; I don't think it was really a power written with "power-levels" in mind, but rather story elements, so it kind of breaks any system.



> Hype/Portryal


Considered an assassin capable of taking down a Hokage before he even had Jingo. Curb stomped other Akatuski members taking their hearts. Was defeating Kakashi + Team 10 despite them having prior prep. Most likely did the heavy lifting when it came to defeating Nibi. Can use more nature changes than anyone besides Rikudo people or Hiruzen. 

Sasori solo'd a country and defeated the strongest Kazekage. Enough said.


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## Turrin (Oct 19, 2014)

> Kakashi in pt 2 was around the same as as Minato when he died as stated when they elected him to be Hokage .


It was not stated, rather it was stated that they were both young. And while I believe Kakashi did eventually reached the same "level" as Minato in PII, he was also most likely older than Minato and it was primarily due to Sharingan a tool Minato never had. 



> What I'm saying is even after Naruto had the hype of defeating Pain he was still judging Naruto by Minato's standards.


He was judging Naruto by Minato standards because they were both the supposed destined children and Minato was Naruto's father.



> See Obito, Bee, Kabuto, Itachi, Gaara, Deidara, Sasuke, Naruto , Hiruzen became Hokage at a young age , shit so did Raikage , most strong shinobi are in their peak at mid 20's-30's.


Deidara was not on their level.  We have no clue about Ei or Hiruzen.

That leaves 
1. Obito
2. Kabuto
3. Itachi
4. Gaara
5. Sasuke
6. Naruto
7. B

All of which except B were not around or Ei didn't know about them back when he thought that Minato was unsurpassable. With B being the only one, but we literally learn that Ei was widely underestimating B their entire lives during that very same sequence.

So yeah you've provide 7 examples out of the hundreds of thousands of shinobi that existed, and none of them would apply to the time period that Ei made that statement. Gee I wonder why Ei would consider Minato special 



> Sure thats just how strong Orochimaru was , but thats not to diminish Minato , it just goes to show that when the village was in a jam Minato was still that guy


So Minato draws with a Sannin, but is an entire tier above the Sannin 



> He couldn't seal Kurama , you mean after he had just fought Obito and saved the village , teleported Kurama, and also he couldn't seal the whole fox because he's not an Uzumaki like Mito, Kushina he doesn't have their chakra to contain it in life thats why he chose Naruto and killed himself , besides it was stated he knew every technique Kushina did , FTG defensive and support capabilities is hax as shit look at what he did in the war , and thats the thing even behind combat Minato is much greater in support.


What he couldn't do it you say....Kushina/Mito were better you say... that's what I thought. Minato was not the best Fuuinjutsu users among the Uzamaki, end of story.



> Danzo and Pain would not decisively defeat Minato no one on the forums would agree with that even if they won it would be a slight margin


I really could careless what the forum thinks, even if that is the case



> So your telling me that he wouldn't think Prime Hiruzen, Hashirama, EMS Madara couldn't defeat him based upon what he knew ,


I think he didn't know how strong those characters were, unlike Minato who he knew personally.



> and remember he was comparing Nagato by Rikudo standards because he only knew of one person with the Rinngean in history and we saw in the fight he paled in Comparison , so in his eyes yes a shinobi with the powers of Rikudo Sennin is unbeatable , but if he knew nothing of Nagato his immobility and the restrictions in using his Rinnegan.


No he wasn't, he was comparing him off what he had just seen go down and the stuff he had just experienced.



> Sure but what I'm saying is Minato with FTG could accomplish most of what Sage Mode Naruto accomplished albeit easier , same in Jiraiya's situation considering FTG would be a perfect counter.


I don't see how doing as well as Jiriaya/Naruto means he's on another level than them.



> Nagato and Minato are most likely each others counterparts.


Nagato and Danzo are the counter parts. They are the ones that Naruto and Sasuke faced after achieving their MS/SM power ups respectively, and both Danzo and Nagato were even given the same type of disadvantage with their greatest powers being on cool down for most (or in Danzo's case all) of the match. They were also the ones that Sasuke and Naruto brought their vendetta's against for the deaths of Jiriaya/Itachi respectively, and it was in both those battles that Sasuke and Naruto made pivitol choices that ultimately resulted in them walking down different paths. 

As for benchmarks, Naruto and Sasuke never have a moment where Kishi focuses on them surpassing their benchmarks overall. He is always comparing them in specific areas. Like in certian Jutsu or abilities.



> There are many people that wouldve done well that night , Madara, Hashirama, Kushina , Kabuto, Orochimaru , Nagato,


Nope because they wouldn't have been able to teleport around to be at all the areas Minato was. They would have done differently, but not the same.


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## Turrin (Oct 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Because he can't fucking damage the eyes,  so doing anything wind related to his arm is bad idea.
> .


And he can't just cut off the bracers that were holding the thing together w/o even needing to touch his arm, why?



> Maybe you would have a point if Danzo actually did this in the Manga.


Maybe you would have a point if Kishi actually highlighted this as an issue in the manga, but he didn't and therefore i'm dealing with fanfiction issues, and will thus accordingly have to come up with speculative (though completely plausible) remedies. 



> My money is on the yellow flash to act first.


And my money is on the guy that has a Jutsu that Itachi thought would ensnare an EMS user, when used by an animal that is bellow an academy student in level, much less Danzo.



> Minato had a Kunai at Jubidara's feet and was in his face with Rasengan before Kakashi could even complete Kamui. I don't see Danzo doing much in response to such speed.


And once again let's use an off panel feat to try and justify Minato's throwing speed being significantly faster than Susano'o. I mean what is this nonsense.



> Danzo wouldn't even have the brace off, especially if he's busy trying to deflect Kunai.


You act as if Danzo can't deflect Kunai while undoing his brace or making seals at the same time, which is ridiculous.



> He had an agenda. The target of Koto Amatsukami was Obito, not Sasuke. Danzo didn't even contemplate using Koto on Sasuke. Actually, it was either use Koto on Tobi or sack it for Izanagi against Sasuke.


So him using Izanagi against the weaker Sasuke, while saving Koto for Uchiha Madara, is suppose to support your premise.


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## Rocky (Oct 19, 2014)

Turrin said:


> And he can't just cut off the bracers that were holding the thing together w/o even needing to touch his arm, why?



For the same reason that Danzo sent his comrades into a fight with "Madara" and stood there undoing it. If he could have removed it in an easier way, I don't see why he wouldn't do so. 



> Maybe you would have a point if Kishi actually highlighted this as an issue in the manga, but he didn't and therefore i'm dealing with fanfiction issues, and will thus accordingly have to come up with speculative (though completely plausible) remedies.



Except he did highlight it. We see Danzo standing there undoing the damn thing for entire chapter. 



> And my money is on the guy that has a Jutsu that Itachi thought would ensnare an EMS user, when used by an animal that is bellow an academy student in level, much less Danzo.



I don't recall saying that I doubted Koto's potency. It being a powerful genjutsu isn't going to help Danzo act quicker than Minato. 

Please stop with the Shisui wank. He wasn't portrayed to be capable of one paneling High/Top Tiers. 



> And once again let's use an off panel feat to try and justify Minato's throwing speed being significantly faster than Susano'o. I mean what is this nonsense.



Except it isn't off panel. We see the Kunai hit the ground,  and we see Minato's subsequent blitz,  all before the process of Kamui can be completed. 

Still not seeing why you think Susano'o is faster than the yellow flash, but hey,  to each his own. 



> You act as if Danzo can't deflect Kunai while undoing his brace or making seals at the same time, which is ridiculous.



How would Danzo deflect Kunai with Futon while making seals for that Futon simultaneously?  The seals must come first, and they aren't going to be fast enough. 

He can't undo his brace while making seals either. I don't even see how that's physically possible. 



> So him using Izanagi against the weaker Sasuke, while saving Koto for Uchiha Madara, is suppose to support your premise.



Shisui's eye wasn't available until he took Karlin hostage. At that point, it was either Koto on Madara or Izanagi against Sasuke, whom he was fighting at the time. 

I would think that if Koto was more effective in battle, Danzo would have considered using it against Sasuke, the person he was engaged in battle with...


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## Turrin (Oct 19, 2014)

Rocky said:


> For the same reason that Danzo sent his comrades into a fight with "Madara" and stood there undoing it. If he could have removed it in an easier way, I don't see why he wouldn't do so. Except he did highlight it. We see Danzo standing there undoing the damn thing for entire chapter.
> .


Danzo had allies and Tobi was playing around with them. If Tobi was attacking him and Danzo was still struggling to remove his seal, you'd have a point, but instead Danzo just leisurely stood there removing the seal, in-fact there was never a point in the entire thing where he was pressured to an extent where releasing the seal faster would have been necessary. Given this there was no reason to rush. His time was better spent carefully observing Tobi's abilities while hanging back. 



> I don't recall saying that I doubted Koto's potency. It being a powerful genjutsu isn't going to help Danzo act quicker than Minato.


If a Crow can act quicker than an EMS users, I think we can safely assume the Jutsu activates incredibly fast. Or heck it effected Itachi before he could cast Amaterasu and that was with him having a head start.



> Please stop with the Shisui wank. He wasn't portrayed to be capable of one paneling High/Top Tiers


So in your opinion Fodder-Crow > Shisui, k, gotcha



> Except it isn't off panel. We see the Kunai hit the ground, and we see Minato's subsequent blitz, all before the process of Kamui can be completed.


Do we see when Minato pulled out the Kunai, do we see when Minato threw the Kunai. If the answer is no, than yes it was off panel.



> Still not seeing why you think Susano'o is faster than the yellow flash, but hey, to each his own.


Were not talking S-T FTG Speed, were talking throwing speed and arm speed. Yes I think Susano'o is faster than that. I mean we saw Susano'o's speed was much greater than Kakashi's and was quicker than R1-Ei; that puts Susano'o's speed above that of any characters with a 4.5 in speed, even if they have Sharingan further augmenting them. If Minato's throwing speed is greater than this or even the same speed, it would mean he could throw a Kunai so fast that it would completely blitz Kakashi and anyone else relatively around that speed.

So basically Minato could throw a Kunai at Kakashi, and if Kakashi is lucky he'd be able to barely defend with Kamui. If Minato threw more than one Kunai Kakashi would be dead. Heck he could throw a Kunai into Itachi's brain before he could do anything. This to me is absolutely absurd.



> How would Danzo deflect Kunai with Futon while making seals for that Futon simultaneously? The seals must come first, and they aren't going to be fast enough. He can't undo his brace while making seals either. I don't even see how that's physically possible.


Danzo can use Fuutons w/o seals. He can also use Mokuton w/o seals. Summoning doesn't really require seals anymore ether

When I was talking about seals I was referring to Izanagi.



> Shisui's eye wasn't available until he took Karlin hostage. At that point, it was either Koto on Madara or Izanagi against Sasuke, whom he was fighting at the time.
> 
> I would think that if Koto was more effective in battle, Danzo would have considered using it against Sasuke, the person he was engaged in battle with...


Yes and the fact that he was comfortable using all of Izanagi up on Sasuke, while believing Koto would solo Madara, should tell you that Koto is obviously better than Izanagi. Unless of course you think Danzo considered Sasuke more dangerous than Uchiha Madara, which is fairly absurd.

The fact that Kishi had Itachi suggest Koto could own EMS-Sasuke, while Izanagi only forced a draw with MS-Sasuke, should also tell you that Koto is superior.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 19, 2014)

> Yup



I thought your criteria for tiers being separated was character x being able to low dif character Y, and even if Pain is stronger like you say with Minato and Kakuzu wouldn't the strength disparity between them not be enough to warrant a separate tier.




> Under that definition Kakuzu is also a gun for hire and so is Nagato Just instead of being bought with money they are bought with other promises (well in Kakuzu's case it probably was literally money).



Theres a difference because Nagato worked for Obito and did his bidding, same organization same ideals , that would be like comparing Bobba Fett to Dark Vader. 




> Madara was a fragile old man for most of the time he interact with Obito. So yes Obito was stronger than Madara and remained that way until Madara was brought back as an Edo, but quickly surpassed him in strength again by taking in the Juubi.



Difference is Madara died and left Obito in charge and gave him his identity , and really didn't serve as a true dragon until the war when Madara got his power back.



> Madara was manipulated by BZ not Kaguya.



BZ was an extension of Kaguya , so really Madara was just a puppet for Kaguya's will 




> Vastly superior Dojutsu and Dojutsu techniques



Nagato had superior dojutsu to EMS Madara yet Madara was still stronger 




> Obito playing defense could survive for some time against EMS-Madara and Hashirama at the same time, it's just the nature of his ability. One has to realize how the ability works and think of ways to counter it to defeat Obito when he's playing defense. That doesn't mean he is beyond Madara or Hashirama in strength, it just means he's tough to put down when he's on the defensive.



Well being difficult to deal with defensively allowed him to give a myriad of enemies nightmares , you're using what he's great at against him when it should really tell you just how strong he is .



> Is Konan SM-Naruto "level"? Did Obito just defeat an entire village? Did Obito have his strongest ability on cool down? Did Obito go on to face KN6-8 after fighting Konan? Did he go on to fight another SM-Naruto level enemy after that?
> 
> And all Naruto did was defeat a single one of Nagato's Jutsu. The real Nagato (or 7th-Path) never even bother to fight him, except for using a single black-rod which Naruto need KSM to overcome.



Konan with Paper Ocean prepped is most certainly stronger than Pain Arc Naruto with time limit ; I gave you an example of Obito facing off against multiple powerful enemies simultaneously and just like you say Obito is just a pain to deal with Defensively , I can say Pain is difficult to deal with because he has a shit load of chakra , besides , you're telling me Obito wouldn't destroy Kononah with just Kamui 



> By that logic Yamato > Kakuzu and Sasori.



If Yamato could suppress Kurama at 9 tails then yeah , but he cant 




> Is it a feat, sure it is, and it shows that Minato is good at Fuuinjutsu. However just because Minato decided to specialize in Fuuinjutsu and had a super powerful Uzamaki Wife to aid him, and because of those things was able to seal Kurama, doesn't magically put him an entire tier above anyone who did not decided to specialize in Fuuinjutsu and did not have a super powerful Uzamaki Wife to aid them.



I can say the same about Minato learning puppetry or stealing hearts like Kakuzu



> Sasori and Kakuzu both have greater raw-power than Minato. They also have more exp and knowledge than Minato given their ages. Sasori may very well be better at Genjutsu than Minato, while Kakuzu is physical stronger than Minato. They also have completely different specialities in Ninjutsu, which will perform better or worse depending on the situation.



Sasori better at Gen , I doubt it as he hasn't been shown to be a genjutsu expert , Kakuzu has a 4 in strength I would give Minato about the same , Ninjutsu FTG and shiki fuijin is better than any of their techniques.




> Wow what overrated nonsense this is. Minato can't be threatened by anyone whose not Juubi Jin level. Please spare me the BS.



Thats what has been shown in the manga so far 



> B wasn't using anything except Base to fight Minato, so it's disengenious to say the least, to have Kakuzu and Sasori have to face B using V1/V2/Hachibi, while Minato faced Base-B.



Minato knew B was in control of Hachibi and still didn't bat an eye 




> And how would he kill Raikage short of Shiki Fuujin?



Like I said he aint got the durability of his pops , he keeps hitting him with Rasengan until he dies 




> Sure, they are the same "tier" afterall.



OK




> The scene doesn't really make sense, because from everything we've seen of Ei we know that the attack wouldn't have even gotten through the Raiton Shroud, however Kishi draws it as if Ei is in danger. So I don't really know how to read that scene other than ether assuming B wanted to avoid all injury to Ei, even not so significant ones or Ei's Raiton-Shroud/Durability was vastly inferior back then.



Yours is speculation I'm going by what the manga showed us and thats it that scenario Bee feared for his brothers safety.




> Chidori Eisou is weaker than Chidori, and it cut through the Full Hachibi's tentacle like butter, yet Chidori did rather minor damage to Ei. So that really does not say much.



We're comparing Chidori to a Kunai 




> The problem is literally everything would need to go right for your scenario to come to pass.
> 
> Minato would need to think of the strategy
> Sandaime would have to make the same mistake as Kabuto
> ...



I mean Naruto got the intel after he saw the scar on his chest , I mean once he sees the scar on his chest It wouldn't be too hard to figure out.




> Yet both of them would take him to at least Mid if not high diff if they fought. Kakuzu may even require him to draw with shiki fuujin



I doubt it , he destroys the hearts like Naruto and crew did 


I agree he went up a tier in each fight. He was bellow Kakuzu tier in that fight and won due to advantages, so he reached Kakuzu tier with the next power up, albeit was stronger overall.




> Boss summons get raped. He doesn't even summon Shima and Fusaku IC.



Bunta would squash him like a bug , IC he hasn't been in a scenario that requires them , Shima and Fusaku require panel time so their role in the story has to be minimal 



> Multiple FRS would work, but that's not an easy win. Naruto would have to by time to enter SM, which against Kakuzu and Sasori in a full knowledge scenario would be hard as hell. Than even after that it's not like they are totally helpless. He'd have to feint Kakuzu with multiple FRS again and probably the same for Sasori.



Thats certainly possible 






> The Sannin were still not over the hill at the age of 50-55. So are you seriously telling me that with 20-30 more years Minato would have made almost no progress.



Only thing he was missing was mastering SM and FRS , I mean we're not talking about Naruto or Sasuke level potential as they are reincarnations of Asura and Indra , I mean Jiraiya and Tsunade had reached their peak in their 30's only reason Orochimaru got stronger was because he was using genetic experiments which is something I doubt Minato would engage in , besides Minato is an athlete and most of his skill revolve around using his athleticism I doubt he would get much stronger over time.



> None of which would actually kill Kakuzu and if he's using Domu it wouldn't even do anything.



But you haven't explained how Kakuzu harms him , to me its just a matter of time until Kakuzu is put down 



> Great no substance, no support, no, nothing.



Pain Fight , Fight against Kurama ect.




> And I agree that the Sannin would wreck Kakuzu w/o Jingo. However with Jingo augmenting him the deficiency in stats should not prevent Kakuzu from reaching that "level".



You do know that Databook doesn't count Sage Mode or Edo-Tensei either and yet their stats were still significantly better 




> Most of the Sannin don't have feats that are widely better than Jingo. Jiriaya's Sennin Modo and Orochimaru's recent Super Edo-Tensei, are the only things I can cite.



Yep and thats what separates them they have abilities that have been probably the most influential in the manga 




> Considered an assassin capable of taking down a Hokage before he even had Jingo. Curb stomped other Akatuski members taking their hearts. Was defeating Kakashi + Team 10 despite them having prior prep. Most likely did the heavy lifting when it came to defeating Nibi. Can use more nature changes than anyone besides Rikudo people or Hiruzen.



We have zero info of those atakuski members and how strong they were , and we don't know how he was supposed to assassinate him, its the same as the Uchiha Massacre , and that still pales in comparison to the hype of the legendary Sannin




> Sasori solo'd a country and defeated the strongest Kazekage. Enough said.



He solo'd the weakest of the 5 villages and probably defeated the weakest of the Kage at the time considering Hiruzen , Onoki, 3rd Raikage were probably much stronger than him , Sannin utterly stomp in the same position .


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 19, 2014)

> It was not stated, rather it was stated that they were both young. And while I believe Kakashi did eventually reached the same "level" as Minato in PII, he was also most likely older than Minato and it was primarily due to Sharingan a tool Minato never had.



What I'm saying is that Minato had more potential than Kakashi so his growth rate shouldve been much greater , especially Kakashi who deferred to Minato's potential throughout the manga.



> He was judging Naruto by Minato standards because they were both the supposed destined children and Minato was Naruto's father.



So beating Pain wasn't strong enough to consider him being a destined child , and wouldn't being a destined child mean you're capable of something beyond a mid tier atakuski member when his son just beat ITS LEADRER.




> Deidara was not on their level.  We have no clue about Ei or Hiruzen.



Flashback Hiruzen was still young as Hokage and boasting about being stronger than Tobirama , Ei was still young in his battles with Minato and it was implied they were both close to becoming Kage ,

I'm talking about potential with Deidara 





> All of which except B were not around or Ei didn't know about them back when he thought that Minato was unsurpassable. With B being the only one, but we literally learn that Ei was widely underestimating B their entire lives during that very same sequence.
> 
> So yeah you've provide 7 examples out of the hundreds of thousands of shinobi that existed, and none of them would apply to the time period that Ei made that statement. Gee I wonder why Ei would consider Minato special



Name a powerful shinobi that took until he was 30 to become strong , shit Sasori was 35 when he died 




> So Minato draws with a Sannin, but is an entire tier above the Sannin



Technically Shiki Fuijin is a win for Minato and to me Orochimaru is just a bad matchup for Minato 



> What he couldn't do it you say....Kushina/Mito were better you say... that's what I thought. Minato was not the best Fuuinjutsu users among the Uzamaki, end of story.



He couldn't do it because he could not contain Kurama's chakra because he's not an Uzumaki , has nothing to do with being unable to do the techniques 




> I really could careless what the forum thinks, even if that is the case



I would agree that there are only a handful of credible posters on the forums , but I'm talking anyone that reads Naruto.



> I think he didn't know how strong those characters were, unlike Minato who he knew personally.



He knew of the legends of Hashirama, Hiruzen, Madara , I mean who didn't know them 



> No he wasn't, he was comparing him off what he had just seen go down and the st
> 
> uff he had just experienced



I would say its a combination of both , what he saw , and what he heard about the Rinnegan , to most Rinnegan was just a myth as well as many of the tales of Rikudo Sennin , so to him and Jiraiya they see a Rinnegan their thinking Nagato is the second coming of Rikudo Sennin in which he really wasn't .



> I don't see how doing as well as Jiriaya/Naruto means he's on another level than them.



No what I mean is he could destroy the bodies with the same if not better effort than them in those same circumstances.




> Nagato and Danzo are the counter parts. They are the ones that Naruto and Sasuke faced after achieving their MS/SM power ups respectively, and both Danzo and Nagato were even given the same type of disadvantage with their greatest powers being on cool down for most (or in Danzo's case all) of the match. They were also the ones that Sasuke and Naruto brought their vendetta's against for the deaths of Jiriaya/Itachi respectively, and it was in both those battles that Sasuke and Naruto made pivitol choices that ultimately resulted in them walking down different paths.



They are counterparts as villains but you need a character that represents you on each end of the spectrum and the only person for Minato is Nagato , I mean they were basically introduced same time in the story , both students of Jiraiya , both same age , ect. I will pretty much bet you anything that Minato and Nagato get exactly the same data score in the databook like Itachi and Jiraiya 

Danzo will get the same as Hiruzen , old men with a couple of hax techniques , both stronger than the Gokage ect.





> Nope because they wouldn't have been able to teleport around to be at all the areas Minato was. They would have done differently, but not the same.



Kabuto has an Edo Army , Hashirama can use Clones , Madara P.S Susanoo rampage , Nagato with Pain ect


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## Turrin (Oct 19, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> I thought your criteria for tiers being separated was character x being able to low dif character Y, and even if Pain is stronger like you say with Minato and Kakuzu wouldn't the strength disparity between them not be enough to warrant a separate tier.


I said I consider Pain/Nagato to be way stronger. As for what diff Pain/Nagato would have, it would probably be Mid to Low Diff, unless the conditions widely favored Minato.



> Difference is Madara died and left Obito in charge and gave him his identity , and really didn't serve as a true dragon until the war when Madara got his power back.Theres a difference because Nagato worked for Obito and did his bidding, same organization same ideals , that would be like comparing Bobba Fett to Dark Vader. BZ was an extension of Kaguya , so really Madara was just a puppet for Kaguya's will


Okay just to end this i'm going to point out that being the Dragon doesn't necessitate being weaker than the puppet-master, in-fact many times the Dragon is stronger than the puppet-master during the time said character is acting as Dragon.



> Nagato had superior dojutsu to EMS Madara yet Madara was still stronger


No Nagato literally has Madara's eyes. Now if were comparing EMS-Madara to Nagato, both were using the same eyes, except Nagato could use certain Rinnegan abilities, while Madara could use all the Sharingan abilities. Madara also had the power of the strongest Tailed Beast at his disposal and was an Indra transmigrant.



> Well being difficult to deal with defensively allowed him to give a myriad of enemies nightmares , you're using what he's great at against him when it should really tell you just how strong he is .


No I'm just saying that the guy has the ability to stay alive against forces that are rightfully much stronger than him, due to the nature of his ability. Or are you going to argue Obito > Hashirama and Madara, because he could survive some time against them w/ Kamui?



> Konan with Paper Ocean prepped is most certainly stronger than Pain Arc Naruto with time limit ;


Konan may be stronger than SM-Naruto, but Pain/Nagato didn't just defeat SM-Naruto, he did so after fighting an entire village and with his most powerful ability on cool down for most of the battle. Than proceeded to fight KN6-KN8, and finally was brought down by yet another scuffle with Naruto; well sort off because actually the real Pain was just fine and proceeded to black rod Naruto, which he needed KSM to get out and than Nagato killed himself w/o the battle ever concluding (but most agree that Nagato would have defeated Naruto again).



> ; I gave you an example of Obito facing off against multiple powerful enemies simultaneously and just like you say Obito is just a pain to deal with Defensively , I can say Pain is difficult to deal with because he has a shit load of chakra , besides , you're telling me Obito wouldn't destroy Kononah with just Kamui


No I think Obito would loose to Konoha and he also has a shit load of chakra.



> If Yamato could suppress Kurama at 9 tails then yeah , but he cant


He can suppress KN4 (perhaps higher) which is something well outside of his weight-class strength wise. Unless your argument is that Yamato > KN4 (perhaps higher).



> I can say the same about Minato learning puppetry or stealing hearts like Kakuzu


Course you can, but that's why the area someone specializes in matters.



> Sasori better at Gen , I doubt it as he hasn't been shown to be a genjutsu expert , Kakuzu has a 4 in strength I would give Minato about the same , Ninjutsu FTG and shiki fuijin is better than any of their techniques.


If Minato turns out to have over a 4 in Gen and over a 4 in Str, that would probably change my opinion of his capabilities, but until than those two are better in those areas from what we can tell.



> Thats what has been shown in the manga so far


No what's been shown in the manga is that the strongest Minato fought successfully was MS-Obito and there battle was decided by a slim margin (a split instance according to Minato himself). There is tons of room between MS-Obito "level" and Juubito, so the assumption that someone needs to be Juubito level to beat Minato is nonsense. It's especially nonsense considering Minato got a huge power up from Yin-Kurama and still couldn't step to Juubito.



> Minato knew B was in control of Hachibi and still didn't bat an eye


Minato knew B was the Hachibi Jinchuuriki and didn't know the extent of what B could do with that power. Considering even Base-B was able to counter Minato's FTG Blitz's twice, even when pre-marked the second time, I hardly think that reflects Minato being well above B.



> Like I said he aint got the durability of his pops , he keeps hitting him with Rasengan until he dies


And just how many Rasengan would that take exactly. Chidori which is equal to Rasengan did minor damage. So what would it take 10, 20, 30 Rasengan + FTG Blitz's? Give me a number.



> Yours is speculation I'm going by what the manga showed us and thats it that scenario Bee feared for his brothers safety.


I'm also going off what the manga showed us and the manga showed us that Ei as we know him would laugh at a Kunai attack. This forces us to speculate on why B felt the need to protect Ei there.



> We're comparing Chidori to a Kunai


No were saying that Eisou has a better feat than the Kunai slash, and Eisou is weaker than Chidori. So in reality based on your feat Ei's defense >> Chidori >> Eisou >> Kunai Slash



> I mean Naruto got the intel after he saw the scar on his chest , I mean once he sees the scar on his chest It wouldn't be too hard to figure out.


Apparently Dodai did not know despite being a senior Kumogakuru Ninja. Apparently Hachibi didn't know despite being there. Both smart, both with vastly more intel than Minato would have. Heck apparently not many in Kumogakuru if any knew about this or even assumed it might be a possibility.



> I doubt it , he destroys the hearts like Naruto and crew did


And how does he get past Domu? How does he get past Long-Range Modes durability?



> Bunta would squash him like a bug ,


Sigh....Elemental Jutsu would kill him and literally Kakuzu tanked a Bijuu's attack w/o a scratch so expecting Bunta to do anything like squashing him is facepalm worthy



> IC he hasn't been in a scenario that requires them , Shima and Fusaku require panel time so their role in the story has to be minimal


Yeah i'm sure that in all the crazy situations he's been in Shima and Fusaku were never required.



> Thats certainly possible


Which I'd consider High diff



> Only thing he was missing was mastering SM and FRS , I mean we're not talking about Naruto or Sasuke level potential as they are reincarnations of Asura and Indra , I


Really you think all Minato would master in 20-30 years is FRS/SM and really your playing that off as minor 

I mean your literally sitting here and telling me FRS/SM made Naruto go up an entire tier, but than when it comes to Minato gaining that alongside another 20-30 years of exp and potentially being able to fuse w/ Fusaku/Shima to have a better SM than Naurto, wouldn't do much for his overall standings. 



> mean Jiraiya and Tsunade had reached their peak in their 30's only reason Orochimaru got stronger was because he was using genetic experiments which is something I doubt Minato would engage in , besides Minato is an athlete and most of his skill revolve around using his athleticism I doubt he would get much stronger over time.


Literally nothing indicates any of them reached their peak in their 30s. We don't know when Jiriaya learned Sennin Modo, heck Fusaku/Shima implied he still had the potential to improve. Tsunade invented Gensis/Byakugo well after her 30s. Orochimaru continued to invent many Jutsu.



> But you haven't explained how Kakuzu harms him , to me its just a matter of time until Kakuzu is put down


Here's how it goes down. Minato tags Kakuzu, but can't do anything. So he's left spamming FTG to avoid Kakuzu's elemental Jutsu and tendrils and attempting FTG blitz's which ultimately fail. At which point it becomes a stamina contest, which we don't know who would win. Or Minato uses Shiki Fuujin which ends in a draw. Ether way it's going to be a high diff win for Minato.



> Pain Fight , Fight against Kurama ect.


You mean fights where he was significantly advantaged and his enemies were significantly handicapped, otherwise he would have been owned?



> You do know that Databook doesn't count Sage Mode or Edo-Tensei either and yet their stats were still significantly better


I know that, but like I said Edo-Tensei is hard to quantify. If we count it Orochimaru is potential one of the strongest in the series, if we don't then we don't.

Sennin Modo-Jiriaya would beat Kakuzu, I agree with that, but achieving Sennin Modo takes time and even with Sennin Modo it's not like Kakuzu gets raped, since he can still tank much of what Jiriaya can dish out and still has some serious fire power. 



> Yep and thats what separates them they have abilities that have been probably the most influential in the manga


And I agree they are stronger, just no an entire tier stronger (well Orochimaru w/ Edo-Tensei is, but he's also way Beyond Minato if we count Edo-Tensei).



> We have zero info of those atakuski members and how strong they were , and we don't know how he was supposed to assassinate him, its the same as the Uchiha Massacre , and that still pales in comparison to the hype of the legendary Sannin


Akatsuki members are all super stronger and have dangerous abilities. The fact that he defeated multiple and was implied to have done so with ease, is extremely impressive. As is the belief that he could defeat a Hokage, not matter what methods he was going to use.

Now care to tell me what the Sannin's hype is?



> He solo'd the weakest of the 5 villages and probably defeated the weakest of the Kage at the time considering Hiruzen , Onoki, 3rd Raikage were probably much stronger than him , Sannin utterly stomp in the same position


So because he's the weakest when compared to some of the strongest Kages in history, and Sasori beat him and than proceed to become much stronger afterwards taking his power as his own, that's somehow not impressive. And soloing a country is always impressive.

As oppose to this Orochimaru defeated a weaker Kazekage and defeated as well as being stated to be equal to Old Hiruzen. Defeating the strongest Kazekage is at least close to that, and the fact that he became stronger afterwards makes up any gap in hype and possibly surpasses it.


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## Kazekage94 (Oct 20, 2014)

Blahhhhhh hhh


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## JuicyG (Oct 20, 2014)

Alive Minato is only beat by top tiers & above, and only some at that. We can talk about it all we want, but Minato falls into the same leauge as Healthy Itachi and Pain


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## Rocky (Oct 20, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Danzo had allies and Tobi was playing around with them. If Tobi was attacking him and Danzo was still struggling to remove his seal, you'd have a point, but instead Danzo just leisurely stood there removing the seal, in-fact there was never a point in the entire thing where he was pressured to an extent where releasing the seal faster would have been necessary. Given this there was no reason to rush. His time was better spent carefully observing Tobi's abilities while hanging back.



He stood there "leisurely" because his teammates were keeping Tobi away from him. I really don't see the evidence for Danzo being able to remove it faster than he did in the canon.

You keep telling me that there wasn't a point where he was pressured to speed up the process, but you haven't yet proved that he is capable of speeding it up in the first place.



> If a Crow can act quicker than an EMS users, I think we can safely assume the Jutsu activates incredibly fast. Or heck it effected Itachi before he could cast Amaterasu and that was with him having a head start.



I love how Itachi's guess is a legitimate feat now. That crow very well may have failed to do shit if Sasuke put an arrow through it the moment it popped out of Naruto's mouth. It isn't like Itachi's plans have never failed. 

Koto Amatsukami activates at the rate of any other genjutsu. Claiming it one-shots Minato isn't even as strong as the infamous argument that he falls to Itachi's genjutsu at the start of the match with low difficulty. Why? Danzo doesn't use Koto Amatsukami IC on somebody he knows nothing about.



> So in your opinion Fodder-Crow > Shisui, k, gotcha



The only thing the crow ensnared has been Itachi, who was trying to get hit.



> Do we see when Minato pulled out the Kunai, do we see when Minato threw the Kunai. If the answer is no, than yes it was off panel.



We see it hit the ground, so we know that the pulling and throwing came immediately before that.

They were all responding to Obito beginning his walk towards Madara, and Minato was able to get a Kunai at Madara's feet in the same amount of time it took Kakashi to _activate_ Kamui, _both before Gaara could place his hands on the ground. _

I don't know why you're trying to play this off as ambiguous.



> Were not talking S-T FTG Speed, were talking throwing speed and arm speed. Yes I think Susano'o is faster than that. I mean we saw Susano'o's speed was much greater than Kakashi's and was quicker than R1-Ei; that puts Susano'o's speed above that of any characters with a 4.5 in speed, even if they have Sharingan further augmenting them. If Minato's throwing speed is greater than this or even the same speed, it would mean he could throw a Kunai so fast that it would completely blitz Kakashi and anyone else relatively around that speed.



I think the speed of Sasuke's arrows alone might be faster than Minato throwing speed, but that would be it. Those arrows were embarrassing Danzo though, so if Minato just chucks a shitload of Kunai at him, I don't see a way that Danzo manages to deflect all of them in time, let alone remove the brace while doing so.



> Danzo can use Fuutons w/o seals. He can also use Mokuton w/o seals. Summoning doesn't really require seals anymore ether
> 
> When I was talking about seals I was referring to Izanagi.



Oh, okay.



> Yes and the fact that he was comfortable using all of Izanagi up on Sasuke, while believing Koto would solo Madara, should tell you that Koto is obviously better than Izanagi. Unless of course you think Danzo considered Sasuke more dangerous than Uchiha Madara, which is fairly absurd.



He might have considered Sasuke more threatening at the time, as Madara didn't seem interested in attacking Danzo, and Sasuke wanted Danzo dead as soon as possible. 

Otherwise, I don't see why Danzo would have pondered permanently closing Shisui's eye by using Izanagi on Sasuke instead of just using Koto Amatsukami on him. 



> The fact that Kishi had Itachi suggest Koto could own EMS-Sasuke, while Izanagi only forced a draw with MS-Sasuke, should also tell you that Koto is superior.



Izanagi's effectiveness is dependent on the user, because it isn't really an offensive genjutsu. Koto Amatsukami is far less usable against anyone with Kage Bunshin no Jutsu imo. 

If Danzo was against SM Naruto, and he uses Koto, Naruto turning out to be a clone would be the ultimate troll. There is no defense against Izanagi like that. Naruto would just have to outlast by virtue of being stronger.


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2014)

Rocky said:


> He stood there "leisurely" because his teammates were keeping Tobi away from him.


Okay, so since Danzo had teammates he could remove the seal at his leisure, and did not have to rush. So in what way is this an accurate representation of how Danzo would have acted and gone about removing the seal in a situation where he does not have teammates and does indeed need to rush?



> You keep telling me that there wasn't a point where he was pressured to speed up the process, but you haven't yet proved that he is capable of speeding it up in the first place.


'
I already cited two ways he could remove the bracer quicker: Fuuton and Mokuton.



> I love how Itachi's guess is a legitimate feat now. That crow very well may have failed to do shit if Sasuke put an arrow through it the moment it popped out of Naruto's mouth. It isn't like Itachi's plans have never failed.


Itachi is one of the most intelligent and knowledgable characters in the manga. He's especially knowledgable when it comes to Sasuke's capabilities, Sharingan's capabilities, Shisui's Dojutsu's capabilities, and Genjutsu in general. Basically Itachi would be considered one of the highest authorities on the subject short of the author coming right out and saying it himself, And what's more the author gives us no other criteria to judge the technique on, that would make us doubt Itachi's analysis. Can Itachi be wrong, sure, but the very fact that he thinks it would work (when used by a fodder-crow no-less), speaks volumes as to how effective and dangerous the technique must be, and I haven't been (nor any reader for that matter) given any indication that Itachi was as vastly mistake about the Jutsu's capabilities as your argument necessitates him to be.



> Koto Amatsukami activates at the rate of any other genjutsu.


Please show me where this has been stated.



> Claiming it one-shots Minato isn't even as strong as the infamous argument that he falls to Itachi's genjutsu at the start of the match with low difficulty.


Itachi starts a match with Three-Tome or Finger Genjutsu, are you seriously implying the potency of Kotoamatsukami is only equivalent to these techniques?



> Why? Danzo doesn't use Koto Amatsukami IC on somebody he knows nothing about.


Danzo IC has never had Kotoamatsukami charged at the start of a match, so how your evaluating this I have absolutely no clue.



> The only thing the crow ensnared has been Itachi, who was trying to get hit.


Itachi could not be trying to get hit anymore than any Edo-Tensei could just stand down and let themselves be sealed in the war. 

Itachi was trying to use Amaterasu against Naruto, however despite his head start Koto-Crow still preempted him and mind-raped him. Itachi lost to the crow in the same way any other tensei lost to the Jutsu they could not defend against.



> We see it hit the ground, so we know that the pulling and throwing came immediately before that.


And that tells us literally nothing other than what is already common sense. It does not tell us when he pulled the Kunai out or when he threw it, which are the two most essential points in determining how fast Minato completed the process.



> They were all responding to Obito beginning his walk towards Madara, and Minato was able to get a Kunai at Madara's feet in the same amount of time it took Kakashi to activate Kamui,


They were reacting to Obito, but we don't know when Minato started to move, versus when the others did. Minato could have pulled his Kunai out back when Madara/Obito were talking, and than been the first to react (due to his reflexes) to Obito moving, throwing his Kunai before the others started to go through their motions. Rather than Minato's throwing speed being that fast.



> both before Gaara could place his hands on the ground.


Gaara placed his hands on the ground two panels before Minato's Kunai landed at Madara's feet. Which tells us the action was performed quicker than Minato's Kunai could travel the distance between himself at Madara; potentially much quicker if Minato was the first to react. Which actually goes a long way to discounting your assertions.



> I don't know why you're trying to play this off as ambiguous.


Because Minato has no other feats that would substantiate his throwing speed being that quick. In-fact when Mahiro was hurling Kunai at Kakashi, Minato was only able to counter them at the last second and Mahiro was able to even dodge Minato's:
*bottom middle panel here.*
*bottom middle panel here.*

If Minato's throwing speed was really the god-tier your making it out to be. I'd 1) expect Minato to be able to deflect Mahiro's Kunai a-lot sooner than that and 2) Mahiro being completely incapable of dodging them. 

Additionally I would not expect Base-B to be capable of intercepting Minato's slashes at the last second, if Minato's arm speed was truly that quick, ether. 



> I think the speed of Sasuke's arrows alone might be faster than Minato throwing speed, but that would be it. Those arrows were embarrassing Danzo though, so if Minato just chucks a shitload of Kunai at him, I don't see a way that Danzo manages to deflect all of them in time, let alone remove the brace while doing so.


Danzo's Mokuton was fast enough to intercept the arrows, therefore it should be fast enough to intercept the Kunai, even by your absurd standards. And most likely using Mokuton would also break the brace off of his arm at the same time, and because it does not require seals, he can be using the seals for Izanagi at the the same time. So he could literally accomplish all actions at once.



> He might have considered Sasuke more threatening at the time, as Madara didn't seem interested in attacking Danzo, and Sasuke wanted Danzo dead as soon as possible.


It seriously tests my suspension of disbelief that, your discussing things honestly, when your argument is that Sasuke was considered the bigger threat than Madara. Danzo was worried about Madara the entire fight and trying to conserve his strength for that reason, as well as wait till he had Shisui's eyes recharged. This heavily implies that Danzo was planning to use Shisui's eyes on Madara from the start, while he was willing to sacrifice Izanagi on a lesser enemy. With it only becoming an issue once Sasuke proved more powerful than Danzo suspected.



> Otherwise, I don't see why Danzo would have pondered permanently closing Shisui's eye by using Izanagi on Sasuke instead of just using Koto Amatsukami on him.


The choice had to do with his wounds. They were deep and Izanagi could be used to get rid of them, but in the end even despite Izanagi's value being heightened do to severity of his wounds he decide Koto was the more worthwhile technique to use. Whats more the Izanagi created by Shisui's Doryuko may have been much more potent than Izanagi used with the Doryuko of fodder Sharingan. Even still he chose Koto, so that only supports Koto > Izanagi.

The fact that Itachi called Koto the ultimate illusion despite knowledge of Izanagi also supports it, as does Koto being named after a pantheon of gods that are indeed higher than Izanagi.



> Izanagi's effectiveness is dependent on the user, because it isn't really an offensive genjutsu. Koto Amatsukami is far less usable against anyone .


All jutsu are dependent on the user and the enemy they are facing, and certain situations would favor certain Jutsu. However that doesn't mean certain Jutsu aren't better overall, which is the case with Koromatsukami



> with Kage Bunshin no Jutsu imo


This relies on the person having a KB out at all times, which would rely on them having knowledge of Koto before hand and having a great deal of chakra to constantly maintain bushin on the field. It would also take a great deal of effort to maintain fragile bushin on the field. Outside of Naruto who can spam them effortlessly, there are very few characters in the series that have knowledge of Koto (and those that hold it's power) and the capability to pull this off. 

Not to mention in the case of KB specifically, i'm not sure it would even work. As the KB would have it's mind altered by Koto and then when dispersed those same thoughts/feelings/etc... would be given  to the user, thus potentially having the same end result. As far as other Bushin go, some can be seen through by the Sharingan and some how Madara was able to see through even Mokubushin, whether that's a power of the EMS or simply something that can be done with strong enough Doryuko we don't know, but if it's the later than Shisui's doryuko is certainly one of the candidates for holding that potential as well, especially when further augmented by Hashirama's DNA power and in the hands of someone familiar with Hashirama's jutsu. So how effective any Bushin strategy would be against Danzo's Kotoamatsukami is certainly debatable to say the least.


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## JPongo (Oct 21, 2014)

Minato
Obito
Pain
Jiraiya
Oro/Itachi/Tsunade
The rest.

Cheat codes are necessary to beat Minato ala Juubi juice.


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 21, 2014)

Yeah, I'm going to pretend I just didnt see Turrin say Pain/Nagato would mid-low diff Minato.


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## Turrin (Oct 21, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Yeah, I'm going to pretend I just didnt see Turrin say Pain/Nagato would mid-low diff Minato.


Here i'll break it down for you. 

*Base on Feats*
Base-B was able to react to and defend Minato's FTG Blitz on Ei at the last second, because he was able to see where Minato appeared due to his superior vantage point [1][2]. The Paths of Pain and Nagato specifically set up formations to use shared vision to create the same superior vantage point [1][2][3] . Jiriaya in the Pain fight basically did what Minato would be doing, using SM-Shunshin to appear within a path's blind spot and attack, but this failed due to shared vision [1][2]. FTG is faster than SM-Jiriaya's shunshin, but if the enemy can't follow ether, they achieve the same result; and from there it comes down to how fast SM-Jiriaya's and Minato's successive attack after using FTG/SM-Shunshin would be. The speed of the successive attack being dependent on ones base-speed (again that's how Base-B countered Minato, both times). Minato's Base-speed is unlikely to be that much higher than SM-Jiriaya's base-speed or even more to the point SM-Jiriaya's fastest attack Kenbari Senbon [1]. Outside of SM-Jiriaya, Pain has also react to the even faster SM-Naruto's Base Speed [1][2]. Or perhaps even more directly to the point Nagato (who has the same reflexes as Pain, just lower maneuverability), reacted to the speed of Base-B strike w/o issue [1], the same Base-B (well not the same, B was actually 16+ years younger then) whose striking speed kept up with Minato's Base-Speed to the point of being able to put his sword Minato's gut in the same time Minato put his Kunai to his neck [1]. Given this the Pain Paths and Nagaot should be able to counter Minato's FTG attacks with shared vision. Minato could try and shut down shared vision, but he has no Jutsu that would be able blind 5 paths (more with summons on the field), to leave one exposed, and against Nagato Itachi needed B and Naruto to act as distractions in-order to take out shared vision of entities that are much easier to deal with than the paths; not to mention Nagato being controlled by an inferior practitioner (Kabuto), who wasn't even aware of the full scope of Nagato's capabilities, such as sensing which would have prevented him from being ambushed even in tha situation.

Outside of FTG usage, Minato's best offense are his Toad Summons and Shiki Fuujin. Toad Summons get overwhelmed and defeated by Animal Paths summons as they were in cannon [1][2][3]. Shiki Fuujin works on the other hand by extracting the person's soul, which the Pain Paths being corpses don't even have [1]. Perhaps it could be used to pull out just the Path's chakra, but Nagato could than simply transfer more chakra to the Path reanimating it again [1]. The end result being a trade off of Minato's life for just some of Nagato's chakra; not the best deal if you ask me. With that said Shiki Fuujin may prove more effective on Nagato himself, however not only would Minato need knowledge of the nature of Pain to target Nagato, but he'd have to fight through Pain,  get his hands on one of their black rods, and buy time to enter Sennin Modo as that is the only way to sense Nagato's location [1], since Pain/Nagato can use the black rods to jam the chakra frequency [1][2]. From there Minato would have to fight through the paths again to reach Nagat and once there survive long enough to use Shiki Fuujin. However even after Shiki Fuujin is used Nagato is very well suited to playing tug of war with ones soul via his Human and Hell Path powers [1] [2]. We've seen via Orochimaru that someone can struggle against the soul rip [1] and that damage caused to the caster can also stop the process. Since Nagato can use various paths at once, he can struggle against the rip with Human/Hell paths, while killing Minato (or forcing him to break the connection and teleport away) with Asura Path [1]; that is if he can't outright absorb the Shingami with Hungry Ghost Path [1]. Put this all together and the chance of Shiki Fuujin being effective against Pain/Nagato are extremely slim.

Granted Minato like all space-time users is tough to land a killing blow on, but with 6 entities attacking him (more with summons) with techniques/abilities he's never even seen before, he should go down eventually. And even if things become an endurance struggle Pain/Nagato could handle such a situation easily. Not only has Nagato shown a quantity of chakra which would allow him to outlast Minato w/o issue given his accomplishments in the Pain-Arc, but he also has the ability to completely restore any damage done to the paths through Hell-Path's power, not to mention corpse bodies are probably not going to feel fatigue, pain, etc.. as acutely as a living man anyway. Given this, even in the worst case scenario where it becomes an endurance struggle, competing in such a struggle really should not pose more than low to mid diff for Pain/Nagato anyway. And this is without even needing his upper end skills like CST, CT, and GM.

*Hype/Statements*
Minato has a-lot of hype, but it's mostly for his potential or talent, which he never achieved because he died young. Yes he has great hype for his speed, skillfulness, and overall strength as well, but it doesn't really compare to Nagato/Pain who was considered a god and wielded the same Dojutsu as Hagoromo w/ the eyes of Uchiha Madara. Even Fusaku who knew Minato well considered Pain unbeatable unless someone had knowledge of Pain/Nagato's capabilities. Minato's accomplishments the night of the Kyuubi-attack are also very commendable, but Pain defeated the entire Konoha-village, proceeded to defeat a Senjutsu users who had the knowledge advantage and prep w/ him being handicapped, than fought KN6-8, than fought said SM user again with intent to capture not kill, and finally Pain was barely defeated, though in reality that was just one of Nagato's jutsu, and Nagato proceed to confront SM-Naruto again defeating him with his black rod and forcing Naruto to up his game to KSM to over come that, with the final battle being forgone due to TNJ. This is simply better imo than what Minato accomplished considering the help Minato received from his wife in dealing with Kurama.

And while Minato does have a powerful Jutsu, they don't measure up to Pain/Nagato's. FTG is a great jutsu, but so are all the Path's individual jutsu like Fujutsu Kyuuin, Asura, Naraka, Human, etc.. and Nagato's higher end jutsu like CST/CT/GM are just on another level entirely. Shiki Fuujin is powerful, but Hell and Human paths can achieve the same effect w/o having to die to do so, and GM's soul dragon ripping dragon is just on another level entirely. Pain's summons are better than Minato's. And while Minato had a high degree of skill in shape alteration and at least on more element, Nagato can use all 5 nature alterations and In'ton and Yo'ton at outstanding levels. 

--------

That's all I really have to say about the subject, take it or leave it, but I just haven't seen anything from Base-Minato that puts him up there with Pain/Nagato, and find KCM or even BM Minato to be the more apt comparison, with Base-Minato being a "level" down from the godly powers Nagato/Pain possessed due to having Madara's Rinnegan.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 21, 2014)

Pain/Nagato>
_
Minato/Itachi/pre-war obito
Higher Kage/Sannin spectrum
Lower Kage/Sannin spectrum


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## Sorin (Oct 21, 2014)

Pain/Minato
Obito

Gap

The rest.


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Here i'll break it down for you.
> 
> *Base on Feats*
> Base-B was able to react to and defend Minato's FTG Blitz on Ei at the last second, because he was able to see where Minato appeared due to his superior vantage point [1][2]. The Paths of Pain and Nagato specifically set up formations to use shared vision to create the same superior vantage point [1][2][3] . Jiriaya in the Pain fight basically did what Minato would be doing, using SM-Shunshin to appear within a path's blind spot and attack, but this failed due to shared vision [1][2]. FTG is faster than SM-Jiriaya's shunshin, but if the enemy can't follow ether, they achieve the same result; and from there it comes down to how fast SM-Jiriaya's and Minato's successive attack after using FTG/SM-Shunshin would be. The speed of the successive attack being dependent on ones base-speed (again that's how Base-B countered Minato, both times). Minato's Base-speed is unlikely to be that much higher than SM-Jiriaya's base-speed or even more to the point SM-Jiriaya's fastest attack Kenbari Senbon [1]. Outside of SM-Jiriaya, Pain has also react to the even faster SM-Naruto's Base Speed [1][2]. Or perhaps even more directly to the point Nagato (who has the same reflexes as Pain, just lower maneuverability), reacted to the speed of Base-B strike w/o issue [1], the same Base-B (well not the same, B was actually 16+ years younger then) whose striking speed kept up with Minato's Base-Speed to the point of being able to put his sword Minato's gut in the same time Minato put his Kunai to his neck [1]. Given this the Pain Paths and Nagaot should be able to counter Minato's FTG attacks with shared vision. Minato could try and shut down shared vision, but he has no Jutsu that would be able blind 5 paths (more with summons on the field), to leave one exposed, and against Nagato Itachi needed B and Naruto to act as distractions in-order to take out shared vision of entities that are much easier to deal with than the paths; not to mention Nagato being controlled by an inferior practitioner (Kabuto), who wasn't even aware of the full scope of Nagato's capabilities, such as sensing which would have prevented him from being ambushed even in tha situation.
> ...





Lol if you actually expected me to read that wall of text. Where are the cliffs Turrin? This post might fly on someone who is new to NF, but to try this on someone who has been on this forum for a decade?


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2014)

Turrin, where would you place Pain on a tier list? With the high tiers (Itachi, Minato, Tobirama, SM Naruto) or Top Tiers (Hashirama, EMS Madara, BM Naruto)? Or do you have a tier in between?


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 21, 2014)

I don't know about Turrin but I have a tier in between them:

Kinda like:

Hashirama
Madara

Nagato/Pain
Kabuto

Tobirama
Minato
Itachi
Mu 
Onoki
etc etc

Minato & Tobirama in my opinion easily top out that list and could honestly be argued in the in between tier. I just think Nagato & Kabuto make good stepping stones to the big guns


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## Turrin (Oct 21, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Lol if you actually expected me to read that wall of text. Where are the cliffs Turrin? This post might fly on someone who is new to NF, but to try this on someone who has been on this forum for a decade?


Well I would kind of expect a vet of the forum to actually bother to read a post someone put effort into, but I guess I was giving you too much credit?



Rocky said:


> Turrin, where would you place Pain on a tier list? With the high tiers (Itachi, Minato, Tobirama, SM Naruto) or Top Tiers (Hashirama, EMS Madara, BM Naruto)? Or do you have a tier in between?


I would put a tier in between and I would not put BM-Naruto on the same tier as Hashirama or EMS-Madara. Something like:

EMS-Madara
Hashirama


BM-Naruto
Edo-Minato
Nagato/Pain
Danzo (Probably, though depending on how Koto works)
Kabuto & Orochimaru (depending on how we quantify Edo-Tensei)

Minato
Tobirama
Pre-War Naruto
Itachi
Sannin
Kages (except SPII-Gaara)
Kakuzu
Sasori
Kisame
Kakashi (at his best before Rikudo-Chakra)

Though within those tiers there are obviously those at the top and those towards the bottom (or barely qualify if you would). 

Edo-Minato and BM-Naruto would be the ones on the top of their tier, while Kabuto/Orochimaru would be the ones that barely qualify depending on how their abilities factor in.

In the lower tier it would be Minato and Tobirama at the top, while characters like Kisame, Kakuzu, Sasori, Ei, Mei, Yondaime-Kazekage, barely qualify.

Now you could conceivably split the tiers in half, so those at the top have their own tier, while those at the bottom have their own tier, but it would just be a more narrow system. I prefer the more broad system because so much has to do with circumstance and how Kishi chooses to write the fight, when it comes to how things play out. 

Obviously a rough list but gives a sense of where i'm coming from.


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## Kazekage94 (Oct 21, 2014)

Lol SP2 Gaara is above Sasori Mei Tsunade and Kakuzu duhhh


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 21, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Well I would kind of expect a vet of the forum to actually bother to read a post someone put effort into, but I guess *I was giving you too much credit?*





But seriously, you need to learn to be clear and concise. The amount of fluff you put in your posts is overwhelming (which might impress or intimidate some). Most people don't have time to read a thesis about Naruto, but I am in no way trying to belittle your work. 

Moreover, please don't compare Jiraiya's speed/reflexes with Minato's. The latter is leagues ahead of the former.


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## Turrin (Oct 22, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> But seriously, you need to learn to be clear and concise. The amount of fluff you put in your posts is overwhelming (which might impress or intimidate some). Most people don't have time to read a thesis about Naruto, but I am in no way trying to belittle your work. .


2 Paragraphs is not a-lot of reading. Most 3rd graders can do it. And someone who didn't even read it can't tell whether their is fluff or not, so that point is obviously moot.



> Moreover, please don't compare Jiraiya's speed/reflexes with Minato's. The latter is leagues ahead of the former


Minato's Base-Speed (no FTG or Shunshin) is greater than Sennin Modo - Jiriaya's, and even greater than Sennin Modo Jiriaya's fastest attack. Yeah gonna have to ask you to prove that.


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## Seon (Oct 22, 2014)

I'm one of the only people who still believes Itachi > Obito huh?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 23, 2014)

Itachi > 1 MS Obito yeah, due to Itachi being a bad match up.


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## JuicyG (Oct 23, 2014)

I'm thinking its more like this........

_With Full Knowledge_

*Pain >= Alive Minato > MS Obito >= Healthy Itachi*


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## WT (Oct 23, 2014)

Kyu said:


> In terms of overall strength. Living Minato in his prime. Pre-Edo Tensei/Jinchuriki.
> 
> _*Akatsuki*_
> 
> ...



See above ......


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