# [Chapter 661] Put Minato in Tobirama's place



## Rios (Jan 15, 2014)

Do you think he would have succeeded?


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## Gunners (Jan 15, 2014)

He would have probably cut Madara, but would have most definitely fallen short of dealing a final blow.


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## babaGAReeb (Jan 15, 2014)

if plot shield is active, no cause we cant have Madara getting his ass kicked at this moment cant we?


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## Magicbullet (Jan 15, 2014)

Against Madara, at that point in time? No.


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## Edo Madara (Jan 15, 2014)

Madara will get his throat slashed.


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2014)

Minato is faster than Tobirama, so, yes he would have done it. However, madara has the strongest plot shield
and Minato is there for support not for the main act, so he won't be allowed to kill or something like that. Just how
Tobirama as well was not allowed to attack madara while he was dealing with the Bijuus.


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## Rios (Jan 15, 2014)

This is a hypothetical situation so drop the plot shields. If you think Minato could have one shotted Madara right then and there, say so.


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## Overhaul (Jan 15, 2014)

The real question is,would Minato even attempt to attack Madara?

But to answer your question no, especially when he only has one arm. However there is a possibility that his justu with the long ass name might do some damage. We have yet to see it,and it seems right up Kishi's alley to make it effective(for the sake of fanservice) . But in the end the result will remain the same. Blondie gets skewered as well .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 15, 2014)

Madara gets bamflashed 

No, not really. Best case scenario Minato'd lose another limb.


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## Rikudou No Sennin (Jan 15, 2014)

Maddy plays with Barbie flash


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## babaGAReeb (Jan 15, 2014)

a better question would be if both minato and tobirama jumped at him at the same time! maybe even Genma can get in the action


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## rac585 (Jan 15, 2014)

Rios said:


> drop the plot shields.



madara is as strong as the plot needs him to be. dropping the plot would probably leave him open to a myriad of OHKO jutsus. kamui, particle dust, minato.

so we can't drop the plot. but we can say that madara can't be beaten by minato. only sasuke/naruto can become as strong as him now.


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## Mariko (Jan 15, 2014)

Something like this I guess:


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## Overhaul (Jan 15, 2014)

^
But Madara is a grown man.


babaGAReeb said:


> a better question would be if both minato and tobirama jumped at him at the same time! maybe even Genma can get in the action



Add in Ramen guy,1010, Neji's corpse,and madz is done for.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jan 15, 2014)

Minato would last longer due to better reflexes FTG skills that's for sure.

But as for killing madara i do not know. Madara would most likely protect his vitals the best he can and resort to rinnehax(like the gravity hold he did in this chapter) to down minato if he can't hit him with just black rods.


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## babaGAReeb (Jan 15, 2014)

Revy said:


> Add in Ramen guy,1010, Neji's corpse,and madz is done for.


that would be total overkill! why ramen guy alone can oneshot mads with a flick of his chop sticks

he is away for plot reasons.

ten ten evolves to one hundred and kills madara too

zombie jesus neji with awakened golden byakugan does the same


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## KyuubiFan (Jan 15, 2014)

Not really. It'd be like the Monty Python's Black Knight scene.


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## Jizznificent (Jan 15, 2014)

^ lol

nah he would probably end up just like tobirama. 

at most the best he could have done is scratch madara or something, but he would ultimately end up like tobirama lol.


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## lathia (Jan 15, 2014)

Dropping plot shields? Madara wouldn't be standing already. Alliance my ass.

Do you want us to drop the plot shield of Kurama's chakra no enhancing Minato's reflexes at all, as well? In a 1 vs 1 It is theoretically illogical to think current Minato would not be putting up a better fight than Tobirama. Tobirama is a mere Senju with no battery.


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## Star★Platinum (Jan 15, 2014)

Nope.  Madara's written to come out on top regardless.
Minus plot?  Same thing happens.


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## ice77 (Jan 15, 2014)

*Minato is dealing with Black Zetsu atm. No time to go after Mads. But soon enough he will be coming. 

Although he's one arm short which makes him weaker atm. *


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## Addy (Jan 15, 2014)

He will lose his other arm


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## PikaCheeka (Jan 15, 2014)

Considering how Madara was able to move his body, I'd say even Minato-level speed would't be any good against him. 

Minato would get owned.


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## SLB (Jan 15, 2014)

A papercut maybe. Same result in my honest opinion


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## BroKage (Jan 15, 2014)

If it's KCM/BM Minato, he'd have a better shot than Tobirama of at least tagging Madara.

Which makes it all the more silly that he's fighting a character who's basically the walking dead at this point and a failed plant experiment instead of the big boss himself.


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## narutoispoppin (Jan 15, 2014)

Revy said:


> The real question is,would Minato even attempt to attack Madara?
> 
> But to answer your question no, especially when he only has one arm. However there is a possibility that his justu with the long ass name might do some damage. We have yet to see it,and it seems right up Kishi's alley to make it effective(for the sake of fanservice) . But in the end the result will remain the same. Blondie gets skewered as well .




thats prob been forgotten about lol


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## Kyu (Jan 15, 2014)

Considering Minato is faster and Madara isn't familiar with his fighting style as he was with Tobirama's(something alot of people here are ignoring). A bloodlusted Minato would force Madara to regenerate by slicing the kunt's throat. 

This assuming Bamflash has both arms. One-Armed Minato would be forced to retreat.


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## ThunderCunt (Jan 15, 2014)

Nopes, outcome would not change. Plus lack of one arm doesn't help either.


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## Sarry (Jan 15, 2014)

If Tobirama was defeated so easily, there's no reason why someone with similar power would get different results. 

I recall Minato was better when tagging multiple people, but the speed of their reflexes were pretty much equal.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 15, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Considering Minato is faster and Madara isn't familiar with his fighting style as he was with Tobirama's(something alot of people here are ignoring). A bloodlusted Minato would force Madara to regenerate by slicing the kunt's throat.
> 
> This assuming Bamflash has both arms. One-Armed Minato would be forced to retreat.



Minato & Tobirama's fighting styles are pretty similar. Only that Tobirama seems to be more calculated while Minato is faster.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 15, 2014)

Tobirama wasn't even able to scratch Madara despite having the surprise advantage and initiative. Furthermore Madara only used taijutsu, sensor skills, and black rods.

Tobirama said that Minato's Hirashin is faster but we do not know how much exactly. For all we know their reflexes might be pretty much equal. Tobirama also seems more clever and isn't missing an arm right now.

Minato might be bit harder to damage due to BM and his hits may inflict greater damage due to super strength. However, Madara has plenty of haxx...in fact he is the most haxxed guy right now and is pulling new stuff with each chapter. And though Madara may not have much info on him the fighting styles of Tobirama and Minato are similar enough while Minato knows nothing about Madara aside from Susanoo and well known base sharingan abilities.

At best he would inflict one or two scratches due to being faster than Tobirama but Madara would still have handled him easily enough. Perhaps he would force him to use a rinnegan jutsu but that's the best he could do.


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## Krippy (Jan 15, 2014)

Minato gets wrecked.


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## Venom (Jan 15, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 







Insert Minato for Tobirama




Minato's S/T Jutsu may normally be faster than Tobirama's but as we can see the teleportation was instantly like Minato's one when encountering Obito.
Just look at how Madara is standing there when he was going for the stab and compare it
to the panel where Tobirama teleported to his kunai. 
Madara in both cases has the same posture. 
So no Minato wouldn't do any better than Tobirama. (Presumed Minato's movement speed is not thousand times faster than Tobi's).


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## Lord Valgaav (Jan 15, 2014)

Not while he's this shorthanded.


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## PsionStorm (Jan 15, 2014)

Rios said:


> Do you think he would have succeeded?



  Probably not considering deva path could rebel him and ransengan would be useless against preta path.  However, I don't think the rods would take him down.


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## Ganta (Jan 15, 2014)

Dragon Fawkes said:


> Something like this I guess:



Variant maneuver of Minato's 

*which was directly stated by kakuzu later in the fight.*

He parried Tobirama's arm upward, cutting his right grip on the kunai

Tobirama then jumped to the kunai again, now clenched in his left.


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## Azula (Jan 15, 2014)

Tobirama was fighting with a single kunai

Minato on the other hand



or this



gg?


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## Turrin (Jan 15, 2014)

In terms of Hiraishin Tobirama this chapter at least match any display Minato has shown so far, and basically used the same moves Minato demonstrated when he defeated Obito. So based on what we've seen I do not see Base Minato doing any better w/ FTG than Tobirama; though we still haven't seen RasenFlashDanceHowl, so perhaps that could have pushed Madara a bit further, but we'd have to see the Jutsu first, and even if that were the case Tobirama himself is handicapped here & Madara had the advantage of witnessing Hiraishingiri many times before, while he probably has not seen RasenFlashDanceHowl; so it will probably still be debatable. Tobirama's performance after all was excellent in the fact that he specifically wait till the exact moment when Madara had thought he won to use his attack and catch him off guard, even having yet another attack planned for when he was pinned down in the form of the hidden needles.

However if were talking BM Minato, than of course he'd push Madara further as he'd be wielding massive attacks like the giant Rasengan he used against Juubiobito. Though he still likely would not win as Rinbo Hengoku + GM would counter his Bijuu powers and than once his Bijuu was torn out of him, it would become the same battle as the Tobirama one, which whether Minato performed better or not he'd loose.


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## Ch1pp (Jan 15, 2014)

Ganta said:


> *Variant maneuver of Minato's*
> 
> *which was directly stated by kakuzu later in the fight.*
> 
> ...



Problem solved  /thread


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 15, 2014)

Madara has too many abilities to fall for the trick that Tobirama tried.


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## Jizznificent (Jan 15, 2014)

so chakra rods can also stop someone from using S/T ninjutsu?


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## KyuubiFan (Jan 15, 2014)

Since it requires chakra yeah, it probably can.


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## StickaStick (Jan 15, 2014)

BM Minato gives current Mads a decent fight for a while but gets overwhelmed in the end.


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 15, 2014)

There would be no difference the two do the exact same technique only difference is minato is in kyuubi chakra mode so he would do better but the end result would be the same


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 15, 2014)

I don't think its so much that Madara is a top-tier speedster, but rather that he has a combination of high-speed _and_ excellent taijutsu skill. Tobirama relies on his evasive manoeuvres and high-speed slashes rather than outright skill in hand-to-hand combat, thats why Madara was able to out-do him IMO.

Minato is faster than Tobirama, but he still wouldn't have been capable of blitzing Madara. At best he could force him to block his strikes, but that's about the height of it.​​


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## Nikushimi (Jan 15, 2014)

Minato gets Force Choked and ragdolled.

Madara has Senjutsu, now; he was able to react to Tobirama coming out of Hiraishin not only once, but twice, in a fashion similar to Minato's own performance against Obito with the final Rasengan.

It's not really a speed issue, because Minato isn't much if at all faster than Sage Madara, and Hiraishin only places him inside Madara's Horrible Rape Radius to be detected by Sage sensing, avoided, and then counterattacked with something Madara can do at will

I'll give Minato the benefit of the doubt and say it's _possible_ he can use Hiraishin to get away before Madara ganks him, but that's all he can do and it's not guaranteed he can pull it off.


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## tkpirate (Jan 15, 2014)

Jizznificent said:


> so chakra rods can also stop someone from using S/T ninjutsu?



those rods messes up your chakra network and you can't mould chakra anymore.


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## Bonly (Jan 15, 2014)

Rios said:


> Do you think he would have succeeded?



Nope, he would've gotten Madara's rod shoved deep inside of him like Hashi and Tobi did.


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## tkpirate (Jan 15, 2014)

what if minato teleported there with a bijuu bomb instead of a kunai ?


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## Lurko (Jan 15, 2014)

Preta Path if that happens anyway worse comes to worse,  he does the same thing he did to Naruto to Minato.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 15, 2014)

Minato gets wrecked, same as Tobirama. Madara reacted to something not even Juubito could when he wasn't expecting it. Tobirama was able to do a few things with Hiraishin before Juubito finally was able to counter it. Madara countered it the first time when he wasn't even expecting it. And he isn't even a Jinchuriki yet.


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## Lurko (Jan 15, 2014)

If Madara was a jin then this wouldn't even be a thread lol.


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## FueledByOJ (Jan 15, 2014)

I feel like minato would of had a backup plan or something, We haven't seen Tobirama do yet... Then again, We haven't seen what tobirama's reaction or what he is doing yet...


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## ZE (Jan 15, 2014)

Chakra rods, the ultimate weapon. 
Let's make a list of the people who have fallen victim to these mighty rods. 

Jiraiya
Pa
Naruto
Hashirama
Tobirama
Amateratsu

There's a reason Sasuke was stabbed by his own sword. 
The rod would've fucked up his chakra control and end the fight right there. 
Kishi knows what he's doing.


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## Jagger (Jan 15, 2014)

Jizznificent said:


> so chakra rods can also stop someone from using S/T ninjutsu?


Yes. Such black rods basically stop the flow of your chakra, thus, preventing you from molding it to use any kind of jutsu.

In other words, Tobirama and Minato would be defendless if they were stabbed multiple times by one of those rods.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 15, 2014)

minato ends up with block rods in his back.


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2014)

madara end up being a  guinea pig for Minato's jutsu that has yet to be reveled. U_U


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 15, 2014)

Madara dealt with all 9 Bijus, Minato would not have been able to do anything.


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## ARGUS (Jan 15, 2014)

The result wouldnt change since Madara did react to FTG 
I dont see Minato surviving against him if hes not in BM,,,, 
If he attacks in KCM,,, then the result would be roughly the same as what happened to Tobirama,,,, it will just take some more time to do it,, thats all


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## Veracity (Jan 15, 2014)

Nothing weaker then BM Minato would work here. FTG is instantaneous so saying Minato's is faster makes no sorta sense. The difference is that Minato has a slower arm swing then Tobirama. If he isn't in BM mode then Madara has an even easier time dodging. Simple as that.


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## Kaiser (Jan 15, 2014)

Minato would have followed the same fate for plot sake, but in terms of feat, Minato would have probably pulled it of. Madara only narrowly evaded Tobirama's first hiraishingiri and after a surprised attack coming from above, Tobirama got off-paneled

So Minato who is confirmed faster than Tobirama normally should have manage

Obito has better reflexes than Madara [1], but he couldn't react to Minato on different occasions [1] [2]. If he bested Obito's phasing, he should have been capable to best Madara whose reactions are slower by feats


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 15, 2014)




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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 15, 2014)

Blake said:


> Minato would have followed the same fate for plot sake, but in terms of feat, Minato would have probably pulled it of. Madara only narrowly evaded Tobirama's first hiraishingiri and after a surprised attack coming from above, Tobirama got off-paneled
> 
> So Minato who is confirmed faster than Tobirama normally should have manage
> 
> Obito has better reflexes than Madara [1], but he couldn't react to Minato on different occasions [1] [2]. If he bested Obito's phasing, he should have been capable to best Madara whose reactions are slower by feats



Obito does not have better reflexes then Madara, you should know just as well as I do that that feat was PIS and plot armour, Madara has shown better reflexes even without SM then Obito has. Now that Madara has SM his reaction speed is even better. Obito has yet to perform something like THIS  not to mention Obito was not able to react to KM Naruto while Madara was able to react to A while concentrating on Mei's attack not to mention his eyes are better then Sasuke's, who was abelt o keep up with Juubito (the fastest character in the manga). Also, in the second link Minato was able to do that only because he already tagged Obito. 

Madara would have dodged Minato's attack the same way he dodged Tobiramas, as Shunshin speed=/=attack speed and FTG slash is *faster* then any of Minato's attacks.


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## Ƶero (Jan 16, 2014)

BM Minato with both arms would beat current Madara. Minato would put a dent in him but Madaras plot shield is too stronk.



Likes boss said:


> Nothing weaker then BM Minato would work here. FTG is instantaneous so saying Minato's is faster makes no sorta sense. The difference is that *Minato has a slower arm swing then Tobirama*. If he isn't in BM mode then Madara has an even easier time dodging. Simple as that.




Minato swings fast enough to casually slice Bijuu limbs and cleave the ground.



By feats Minato >>>>> Tobirama


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 16, 2014)

Ƶero said:


> BM Minato with both arms would beat current Madara. Minato would put a dent in him but Madaras plot shield is too stronk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your joking right? Minatos "swings" don't mean anything when they are not faster then FTG slash.


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## Ƶero (Jan 16, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Your joking right? Minatos "swings" don't mean anything when they are not faster then FTG slash.


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## Veracity (Jan 16, 2014)

Ƶero said:


> BM Minato with both arms would beat current Madara. Minato would put a dent in him but Madaras plot shield is too stronk.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



His arm moves slower then Tobiramas by feats ; far beyond the scale of what humans can even achieve with nature or shape manipulation alone


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## Rios (Jan 16, 2014)

Its like saying Kakashi is faster than Minato because he reacted to the Gedo while Minato didnt even try to do a thing


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 16, 2014)

Minato would still be defeated because he couldn't hit Madara, like others have said speed wasn't the issue because Tobirama is faster, its about being able to land a blow on someone with Sage Sensing , and Rinnegan, Minato couldn't do it


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## Coppur (Jan 16, 2014)

Minato is going to do as good as Tobirama in base, but Yondaime may outperform the latter in terms of the length of the fight and the difficulty Madara has.

Best Case Scenario: Minato avoids the black rods and retreats, while sustaining heavy injuries.

Worst Case Scenario: He gets destroyed just like Tobirama. (This one is way more likely.)


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## Veracity (Jan 16, 2014)

Rios said:


> Its like saying Kakashi is faster than Minato because he reacted to the Gedo while Minato didnt even try to do a thing



Besides Minato's goal was to grab the orb and warp with it. So he did "try to do a thing."


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2014)

What if Minato used SF and then teleported to madara? 

Madara can't see or sense the raper death, can he? 
and when its hand landed all jutsu won't work!

Any scenario to how madara can survive that?


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## DeK3iDE (Jan 16, 2014)

plot shield or not, one would be deluding themselves to think Minato would've fared any better other than maybe lasting a bit longer. The most he was going to do was probably getting a strand of Madara's hair or barely nicking his face.


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## ueharakk (Jan 16, 2014)

Madara gets a rasengan to the back just like juubito.

The only reason he dodged tobirama's two strikes is because they are actually wind-up strikes that rely on momentum.  They aren't like rasengan where Minato or Naruto can just warp the attack right into the guy's flesh like they did to obito.

Not only that but Minato even in base is faster than Tobirama and madara dodged the kunai strike by a hair, so even then there's a good chance he'd succeed.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 16, 2014)

This isn't directed at anyone, but seeing these translations bother me.  They spread a lot of miss-information and cause confusion.

Some translators translate shunshin (body flicker) as teleportation, which is incredibly annoying, because hiraishin is teleporting, and a complete separate jutsu.  

So we get Shino's famous miss-quote as teleportation being nothing but high speed movement, even though it should translate as shunshin being nothing but high speed movement, and then everyone thinks Minato isn't actually teleporting with hiraishin, but just running really fast between spots.  Even though he's hiraishined into and out of closed rooms without busting through walls, and we have shunshin being described in the databooks as high speed movement that makes it look like you teleported, and you can't shunshin through solid objects without smashing through them.  

It's just always bothered me so I said something.  Thank you for giving me an opportunity to rant.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 16, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Madara gets a rasengan to the back just like juubito.
> 
> The only reason he dodged tobirama's two strikes is because they are actually wind-up strikes that rely on momentum.  They aren't like rasengan where Minato or Naruto can just warp the attack right into the guy's flesh like they did to obito.
> 
> Not only that but Minato even in base is faster than Tobirama and madara dodged the kunai strike by a hair, so even then there's a good chance he'd succeed.



No he does not, Juubito already had a tag placed on him, that is why he got hit. Madara dodged FTG slash thanks to his reflexes, FTG slash is faster then any of Minato's moves as well as Narutos. Its one of the fastest attacks in the manga. Madara fodderized 9 Biju including Naruto, I don't see why a single Biju who is missing an arm would be any different. Heck what's stopping him from simply paralyzing Minato like he did to Sasuke?




Ƶero said:


>



Most translations say it was Shunshin, I will stick with Shunshin.


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## Azula (Jan 17, 2014)

meaning is pretty clear

>Minato is better
>better because he is faster

what is 2+2 again?

It becomes even more clear that they were using ftg when we see that Minato has ftg kunais spread even outside the barrier

and when tobirama talks about teleporting the juubi bomb outside the barrier, unless anyone thinks he was gonna teleport the bomb right into konoha


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## StickaStick (Jan 17, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Obito does not have better reflexes then Madara, you should know just as well as I do that that feat was PIS and plot armour, Madara has shown better reflexes even without SM then Obito has. Now that Madara has SM his reaction speed is even better. Obito has yet to perform something like THIS  not to mention Obito was not able to react to KM Naruto while Madara was able to react to A while concentrating on Mei's attack not to mention his eyes are better then Sasuke's, who was abelt o keep up with Juubito (the fastest character in the manga). Also, in the second link Minato was able to do that only because he already tagged Obito.
> 
> Madara would have dodged Minato's attack the same way he dodged Tobiramas, as Shunshin speed=/=attack speed and FTG slash is *faster* then any of Minato's attacks.


If you start dismissing blatant canon because of PIS and plot shield then you're opening Pandora's box. Fact is Obito reacted to it and Mads didn't.  

To the topic at hand, Minato is faster by feats and hype. If he had had his attack ready--say a resengan--teleported with FTG w/ the forward motion already in progress my guess is he would have hit Mads cleanly. Tobirama got close and apparently isn't even at full power because of his Edo form.


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2014)

-Azula- said:


> meaning is pretty clear
> 
> >Minato is better
> >better because he is faster
> ...



Thank you. I forgot that shino called is by "shunshin"


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## Lurko (Jan 17, 2014)

Golden Boy would still get his ass handed to him.


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