# hashirama vs juubi



## Shinobi no Kami (May 25, 2013)

discuss. who do you think wins? in the latest chapter we see hashirama pin down the V2 juubi within seconds of arriving on the battlefield. 

location: in an open field
restrictions: none
mindset: IC for both
distance: 100 meters

scenario 1: V1 juubi

scenario 2: V2 juubi


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 25, 2013)

Hashirama wins. 

- Mokuton suppression
- Sealing techniques
- Durability/healing abilities


Even though Madara has gained a plethora of Mokuton techniques - not to mention the Rinnegan and infinite chakra - he *still * felt inferior to Hashirama Senju.

The man is a solid counter to Tailed Beasts.


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## Trojan (May 25, 2013)

Juubi wins both. 
in his first stage it might take some time. 
in his second stage 1 TBB will send Hashi to the hell.


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## Dfk88 (May 25, 2013)

*shodaime wins one juubi wins one*

i can say the first hokage would win the first one but barley i just dont think his mokuton is strong enough to contain the ten tails more over i dont think he is on the same level of power with the beast now with v2 he would just flat out die


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2013)

The Ten-Tails wins with ease. Hashirama needed the help of three other Hokage to get that formation off. 

Seriously, you thought Hashirama would win? The Jyubi required the Rikudo Sennin to defeat it, and Hashirama is not anywhere near on that level.


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## Kai (May 26, 2013)

Hashirama wouldn't alarm shinobi on the battlefield to get their head out of their ass and shift their focus on the Juubi if he was able to solo.


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## Bonly (May 26, 2013)

I doubt Hashi could pull this off. The Juubi outlast Hashi or just outright kill Hashi during the fight.


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## crisler (May 26, 2013)

As weak as it powers may be compared to it's fullest form, the juubi is no ordinary beast.

I would say it destroys hashirama.


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## Jagger (May 26, 2013)

It completely humilliates Hashirama.


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## Doge (May 26, 2013)

1.) Hashirama has nothing to harm it with.

2.) He can't survive Biju dama spamming.


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## Rocky (May 26, 2013)

Hashirama can hold it down but he lacks the firepower to kill it. It on the other hand has plenty of firepower to kill him.


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Hashirama can hold it down but he lacks the firepower to kill it. It on the other hand has plenty of firepower to kill him.



Couldn't he catch a TBB via Mokuton: Mokujin, Rocky?
A Sage-enhanced version, that is...

Its own technique should be capable of inflicting damage.


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## Rocky (May 26, 2013)

Hashirama would still have to protect himself from the blast, and none of his defenses are going to do anything against an explosion that powerful.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> Couldn't he catch a TBB via Mokuton: Mokujin, Rocky?
> A Sage-enhanced version, that is...
> 
> Its own technique should be capable of inflicting damage.


The Jyubi's Bijudama is _magnitudes_ stronger than the standard Bijudama that Kurama used against Hashirama (it was no stronger than the likes of the Biju 1-8). 

And...in its _emaciated_ state it took its own Bijudama + Gyuki's without getting ANY damage. So no, even if Mokujin could catch the Jyubi's Bijudama it wouldn't be able to damage the Jyubi. All that would happen is Hashirama being killed in the ensuing collision which creates a blast that makes even a combined Bijudama from Naruto and Bee look like nothing.


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Hashirama would still have to protect himself from the blast, and none of his defenses are going to do anything against an explosion that powerful.



I got the intention that the OP was referring to Edo Hashirama, though, so he would merely rejuvenate from any damage. 

Do you think he can form the barrier via Mokuton Bunshin?

If that happens to be the case, Hashi can taunt it through clones within the given area; it would literally kill itself, in fact.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The Jyubi's Bijudama is _magnitudes_ stronger than the standard Bijudama that Kurama used against Hashirama (it was no stronger than the likes of the Biju 1-8).



*"A Sage-enhanced version of the technique, that is..."*



> And...in its _emaciated_ state it took its own Bijudama + Gyuki's without getting ANY damage. So no, even if Mokujin could catch the Jyubi's Bijudama it wouldn't be able to damage the Jyubi. All that would happen is Hashirama being killed in the ensuing collision which creates a blast that makes even a combined Bijudama from Naruto and Bee look like nothing.



Kurama is akin to a grape before Hashirama; it is a terrible comparison.

I am certain that a Sage-enhanced version of Mokuton: Mokujin can grasp the TBB like a baseball. Before this collision occurs, he has the option to protect himself with Mokuton: Hōbi (multiple layers).


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## ueharakk (May 26, 2013)

Hashirama has no attack that comes close to the power of Naruto and Bee's combined bijuudama and the Juubi  took that in his weakest form.   And while Hashirama can catch normal bijuudamas, nothing suggests he can catch a laserbeam.

The juubi was also able to let his own bijuudama which is on a whole nother level than the combined go off on his insides and he still was combat capable. 

Hashirama has no way of hurting it, the juubi nukes him and his SM wood constructs.


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## Bonly (May 26, 2013)

Hashirama has no attack that comes close to the power of Naruto and Bee's combined bijuudama and the Juubi took that in his weakest form. And while Hashirama can catch normal bijuudamas, nothing suggests he can catch a laserbeam.

He then let his own bijuudama which is on a whole nother level than the combined go off on his insides and he still was combat capable. 

Hashirama has no way of hurting it, the juubi nukes him and his SM wood constructs.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> *"A Sage-enhanced version of the technique, that is..."*


Doesn't matter. The Jyubi's Bijudama is far stronger than ANY Bijudama in the series.




> Kurama is akin to a grape before Hashirama; it is a terrible comparison.
> 
> I am certain that a Sage-enhanced version of Mokuton: Mokujin can grasp the TBB like a baseball. Before this collision occurs, he has the option to protect himself with Mokuton: Hōbi (multiple layers).


No, not really. Hashirama was severely weakened after fighting Kurama (to the point where he considered his power too great to be kept free any longer).

And Hashirama never took an Bijudama this fucking big and powerful, nor one that dwarfs that one, and is completely on another level.

You're overestimating Hashirama.


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## Jagger (May 26, 2013)

Are we seriously defending Hashirama?


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 26, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Doesn't matter. The Jyubi's Bijudama is far stronger than ANY Bijudama in the series.



Do you remember what Hashirama did to the TBB from Kurama?
100% Kurama, mind you...

That said, his Sage-enhanced techniques should be on a different level.



> No, not really. Hashirama was severely weakened after fighting Kurama (to the point where he considered his power too great to be kept free any longer).



Retcon, man.

Hashirama wasn't really bleeding after the VoTE fight; that panel made him appear fucking battered. Per their battle, Kurama was taken care of easily.

You must remember the way Madara spoke of him, too.

If anything, his injuries came from falling debris and such.



> And Hashirama never took an Bijudama this fucking big and powerful, nor one that dwarfs that one, and is completely on another level.



Nothing implies he can't take a TBB on that level... 

Have you considered the amount of enhancement that Sennin chakra brings to his techniques? It should be extremely notable, quite frankly.  



> You're overestimating Hashirama.



I'm not.

If all else fails, Hashirama can become its Jin and win the match-up.


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2013)

Hashi has a chance to win the first one with High-Extreme Diff. 50% Kurama and Hachibi were fighting enough to deal with the Bjuu, SM Hashi is not going down without a fight.

Hashi has Shinsenshenju and his newly released Sage Mokuton to deal with V1 Juubi. The Juubi was temporarily put down by the alliance combined so Hashirama with SM Mokuton should be able to contain it. Pollen world, wood dragon, and wood human as well as shinsensunju help him beat V1 Juubi.

V2 juubi soloes


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> Do you remember what Hashirama did to the TBB from Kurama?
> 100% Kurama, mind you...
> 
> That said, his Sage-enhanced techniques should be on a different level.


That Bijudama wasn't any stronger than the other Bijudama that the other eight Biju are capable of. Madara has no way of controlling the size, nor the power of said Bijudama's.




> Retcon, man.
> 
> Hashirama wasn't really bleeding after the VoTE fight; that panel made him appear fucking battered. Per their battle, Kurama was taken care of easily.
> 
> ...


No retcon. Hashirama acknowledged and said Kurama's power was far to great to be set free.




> Nothing implies he can't take a TBB on that level...
> 
> Have you considered the amount of enhancement that Sennin chakra brings to his techniques? It should be extremely notable, quite frankly.


Um, his strongest technique was rendered unusable after a Renkozu Bijudama barrage by Kurama, due to their rapid fire nature they're far weaker than even a standard Bijudama, but there are far more than that.

That my friend is the strongest Bijudama next to the Ten-Tails. NOTHING that Hashirama has shown can survive the Ten-Tails and its just downplaying the Ten-Tails to claim it.


> I'm not.
> 
> If all else fails, Hashirama can become its Jin and win the match-up.


Hashirama is no where near as powerful as the Sage for that.

Hashirama can't do anything to the Ten-Tails.


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2013)

@SSM12 Kyuubi was said to have near endless chakra uncomparable to the other bjuu's combined. The juubi Madara/Tobi has now only have 7 full bjuu and about 10% of the Kyuubi and Hachibi respectively. It is no where near it's prime.

V1 Juubi can be dealt with via SM Hashirama.


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## Sans (May 26, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Doesn't matter. The Jyubi's Bijudama is far stronger than ANY Bijudama in the series.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hashirama can continue to grow in power over time.

In his final fight with Madara, he threw its "standard" Bijuudama around like a toy. Kyuubi needed to be merged with Susano'o to even force Sennin Modou. When Sennin Modo was used, one jutsu reduced the Kyuubi to a pet that had its head patted.

Further reinforcing the idea that Hashirama continued to grow past the scene you referenced, he's apparently at the end of a fight with the Kyuubi, and not in Sennin Modou. Even when he didn't have the transformation, he could vanquish the Kyuubi.

Yeah, Hashirama is a fair bit above the Kyuubi, it's fairly obvious.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> @SSM12 Kyuubi was said to have near endless chakra uncomparable to the other bjuu's combined. The juubi Madara/Tobi has now only have 7 full bjuu and about 10% of the Kyuubi and Hachibi respectively. It is no where near it's prime.
> 
> V1 Juubi can be dealt with via SM Hashirama.


How? V1 Juubi could tank an attack far stronger than anything SM Hashirama has in his arsenal. Not only that, a single tail swipe devastated dozens of kilometers of area. 

Kurama and Gyuki both said that despite being incomplete, even in that state, its power was no less potent. Hell did you forget its power cannot be measured?



Komnenos said:


> Hashirama can continue to grow in power over time.
> 
> In his final fight with Madara, he threw its "standard" Bijuudama around like a toy. Kyuubi needed to be merged with Susano'o to even force Sennin Modou. When Sennin Modo was used, one jutsu reduced the Kyuubi to a pet that had its head patted.
> 
> ...


Kurama can tank every hit and blow Hashirama has, laugh them off, and obliterate them. A Renkozu Bijudama destroyed his strongest attack, which didn't even damage Kurama. And finally Kurama couldn't even use his more powerful attacks and Bijudama's since Madara didn't know about it.

Hashirama respected Kurama's power. Hashirama was desperate to suppress Kurama since if the fight continued...


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> > How? V1 Juubi could tank an attack far stronger than anything SM Hashirama has in his arsenal. Not only that, a single tail swipe devastated dozens of kilometers of area.
> >
> > Kurama and Gyuki both said that despite being incomplete, even in that state, its power was no less potent.
> 
> ...


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> This isn't a battle of DC and durability that is where your assessment falls short.
> Hashirama has the ability to suck chakra and could control all 9 bjuu(which have natural chakra) at one time: if you recall the Original juubi was the sum of all 9 bjuu. This Bjuu isn't all 9 complete so it's weaker. Hashirama with his SM enhanced Wood Models and Shinsensenjuu can take V1 Juubi.


The Jyubi is the only Biju that has Natural Energy. All the other beasts have chakra. This was explicitly pointed out to you by Ueherakk when you tried claiming Bijudama is Yin and Yang.

Hashirama can't consume a fucking planet's worth of power. Even he has limits.


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## Rocky (May 26, 2013)

Dr.White said:
			
		

> This isn't a battle of DC and durability that is where your assessment falls short.
> Hashirama has the ability to suck chakra and could control all 9 bjuu(which have natural chakra) at one time: if you recall the Original juubi was the sum of all 9 bjuu. This Bjuu isn't all 9 complete so it's weaker. Hashirama with his SM enhanced Wood Models and Shinsensenjuu can take V1 Juubi.




No he can't. 

What he gonna do, suck it's essentially limitless Chakra? 

Punch it while it lazerbeams down his wood creations?


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> No he can't.
> 
> What he gonna do, suck it's essentially limitless Chakra?
> 
> Punch it while it lazerbeams down his wood creations?



Uhm Wha?

Shinsensenju is still taller than V2 Juubi...and sucks chakra while Juubi doesn't. Shinsensenju itslef overpowered a dozen bjuudama's enhanced by Susano you are underestimating ts power. Hashirama in SM gains the same "unlimited  chakra". You like to pronounce so admirally how KCM makes Minato unstoppable speed wise, then why doesn't Hashirama gain the same leisures enhanced by SM, when his Base self was enough to deal with Kyuubi, and tank a bjuudama. Seems like a double standard.

The alliance was pretty far from Juubi, base Hashirama was outpacing Bjuudama's, SM Hashirama gain's more speed so from the starting distance it isn't impossible for Hashirama to restrain Juubi.

I wanna hear manga backed logic as to why Hashi can't deal with V1 juubi. Don't worry I'll wait.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Uhm Wha?
> 
> Shinsensenju is still taller than V2 Juubi...and sucks chakra while Juubi doesn't. Shinsensenju itslef overpowered a dozen bjuudama's enhanced by Susano you are underestimating ts power. Hashirama in SM gains the same "unlimited  chakra". You like to pronounce so admirally how KCM makes Minato unstoppable speed wise, then why doesn't Hashirama gain the same leisures enhanced by SM, when his Base self was enough to deal with Kyuubi, and tank a bjuudama. Seems like a double standard.
> 
> ...


...since when does Shinsensenju consume chakra? And its not that much taller given the Jyubi is a kilometer high, and V2 Jyubi even bigger.

And Hashirama doesn't gain 'unlimited chakra'. Hell his Sage Mode duration is even less than Naruto's!


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 26, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That Bijudama wasn't any stronger than the other Bijudama that the other eight Biju are capable of. Madara has no way of controlling the size, nor the power of said Bijudama's.



Base Hashirama caught it effortlessly; he wasn't being serious, either. 
Until he entered Sage Mode, his demeanor had been nonchalant.

Imagine what a Sage-enhanced variant can do...



> No retcon. Hashirama acknowledged and said Kurama's power was far to great to be set free.



Almost 60 chapters before their battle...

You also disregarded how Hashirama dealt with Kurama - rather easily, in fact - though it was Madara and his Susano'o transformations that were causing havoc. 

Hashirama was built to counter Tailed Beasts, and he had multiple within his possession (at one time).



> Um, his strongest technique was rendered unusable after a Renkozu Bijudama barrage by Kurama, due to their rapid fire nature they're far weaker than even a standard Bijudama, but there are far more than that. That my friend is the strongest Bijudama next to the Ten-Tails. NOTHING that Hashirama has shown can survive the Ten-Tails and its just downplaying the Ten-Tails to claim it.



"Nine-Tails, you are merely a momentary life, a temporary existence of coalesced energy… energy that once was a single, ultimate form! An unstable force, lacking in intelligence or sapience, you require a guide to show you purpose. That guide is the Uchiha! The tailed beasts are but slaves to those with blessed eyes. Obey!" 

Jūbi doesn't even have a conscience, so it makes the situation somewhat easier. 

Plain and simple... *Madara and Hashirama* treated Kurama like a house pet.

When you fail to consider Hashirama's remaining arsenal and its Sage-enhanced capability, that is simply downplaying his character.



> Hashirama is no where near as powerful as the Sage for that.



Obito stated that he would become its Jin. Lol

Hashirama isn't capable of such a feat? 



> Hashirama can't do anything to the Ten-Tails.



He can kill the Ten-Tailed Beast with a TBB (Mokujin), while protecting himself within multiple layers of Mokuton.

I wouldn't be surprised to witness the suppression making it lose strength.


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## Rocky (May 26, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Shinsensenju is still taller than V2 Juubi...and sucks chakra while Juubi doesn't. Shinsensenju itslef overpowered a dozen bjuudama's enhanced by Susano you are underestimating ts power.




The V1 Juubi's hand is about as big as the Nine/Eight tails, so there isn't any massive size difference. Sucking Chakra accomplishes nothing against the Juubi.

No, Shinsuusenju took massive damage, as it disappeared as soon as the Kyuubi was suppressed.



> Hashirama in SM gains the same "unlimited  chakra". You like to pronounce so admirally how KCM makes Minato unstoppable speed wise, then why doesn't Hashirama gain the same leisures enhanced by SM, when his Base self was enough to deal with Kyuubi, and tank a bjuudama. Seems like a double standard.



Hashirama ran out of Sage Mode after using Shinsuusenju. Doesn't seem limitless to me.

KCM does make Minato unstoppable speed wize, but I'm not gonna sit here and say Minato defeats the 10 tails.

Hashirama can't hurt it, at all.



> The alliance was pretty far from Juubi, base Hashirama was outpacing Bjuudama's, SM Hashirama gain's more speed so from the starting distance it isn't impossible for Hashirama to restrain Juubi.




Okay so he's faster.



> I wanna hear manga backed logic as to why Hashi can't deal with V1 juubi. Don't worry I'll wait.




Common sense. By feats nothing Hashirama has can scratch it.


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 26, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Hashirama doesn't gain 'unlimited chakra'. Hell his Sage Mode duration is even less than Naruto's!



Can Naruto summon a Buddha Statue that makes 100% Kurama seem tiny?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> Base Hashirama caught it effortlessly; he wasn't being serious, either.
> Until he entered Sage Mode, his demeanor had been nonchalant.
> 
> Imagine what a Sage-enhanced variant can do...


Nothing compared to a Super Bijudama. King Itachi, Sage Mode doesn't change one fucking thing, the Jyubi even in its first form is too strong for Hashirama.




> Almost 60 chapters before their battle...
> 
> You also disregarded how Hashirama dealt with Kurama - rather easily, in fact - though it was Madara and his Susano'o transformations that were causing havoc.
> 
> Hashirama was built to counter Tailed Beasts, and he had multiple within his possession (at one time).


And we didn't see a large portion of the fucking battle. Kurama wasn't even injured by Hashirama's best fucking attack! Hashirama had to put him to sleep before he could do more damage and rampage.

Dear lord, thats what the manga presented! Without the ability to put Kurama to sleep, he was too strong. Hashirama's own words acknowledge that Kurama was TOO FUCKING STRONG. 

Stop wanking dear lord!


> "Nine-Tails, you are merely a momentary life, a temporary existence of coalesced energy… energy that once was a single, ultimate form! An unstable force, lacking in intelligence or sapience, you require a guide to show you purpose. That guide is the Uchiha! The tailed beasts are but slaves to those with blessed eyes. Obey!"
> 
> Jūbi doesn't even have a conscience, so it makes the situation somewhat easier.
> 
> ...


Madara is an arrogant asshole who considers ANYONE who isn't Hashirama below his notice. Kurama has shown again and again and again he was the strongest thing, bar none, compared to the Jyubi.

Hashirama and Madara have ADVANTAGES over Kurama due to their control, but they aren't stronger than him. Consider this: Maxwell Lord could control Superman with his psychic powers: does this make Superman weaker than Maxwell Lord? NO. 




> Obito stated that he would become its Jin. Lol
> 
> Hashirama isn't capable of such a feat?


Obito has the Rinnegan, and both Senju and Uchiha DNA in him. He's a Rikudo. Hashirama isn't/




> He can kill the Ten-Tailed Beast with a TBB (Mokujin), while protecting himself within multiple layers of Mokuton.


...

The Ten-Tails can shrug off its own Bijudama exploding in its body in a emaciated form. There is no Mokuton strong enough to block an attack that can wipe out a fucking country.


> I wouldn't be surprised to witness the suppression making it lose strength.


...

He can't suppress a planet's worth of unlimited energy.



King Itachi said:


> Can Naruto summon a Buddha Statue that makes 100% Kurama seem like an insect?


I remember Kurama's barrage

And no, that's not the size difference.


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> > The V1 Juubi's hand is about as big as the Nine/Eight tails, so there isn't any massive size difference. Sucking Chakra accomplishes nothing against the Juubi.
> 
> 
> It's fingers were very long even comared to is massive head. Height wise still only reaches about the Shinsensenju's waist. 50% Kurama was able to sit there and tak a Laser from the Bjuudama yet Full powered Kurama was sonned by Hashirama...This Juubi doesn't even have Kyuubi which canonically dwarfs all other bjuu combined chakra wise, and the Hachibi which is the only Bjuu comprable to Kyuubi.
> ...


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## Rocky (May 26, 2013)

Bro, Hashirama is not sucking the Juubi dry of Chakra. That's delirious.  Literally, are you completely serious. 

The only way the Juubi can be defeated is brute force. Otherwise it rips Hashirama's Mokuton to pieces and laughs at Shinsuusenju like it laughed at every other attack it's faced.


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Bro, Hashirama is not sucking the Juubi dry of Chakra. That's delirious.  Literally, are you completely serious.
> 
> The only way the Juubi can be defeated is brute force. Otherwise it rips Hashirama's Mokuton to pieces and laughs at Shinsuusenju like it laughed at every other attack it's faced.



Lol who said anything about sucking dry?

Lol what I said is basically:
-Base Hashirama = able to match Kyuubi + Madara via Mokuton.
-SM hashirama creates Mokuton much larger than base Hashi and Has Shinsensenju.
-Hashirama can use the juubi as a source of endless chakra bigger than that of Full power Kyuubi.


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## Rocky (May 26, 2013)

You fail to mention how he actually kills it.

And Hashirama isn't Kisame. He can't replenish his Chakra with Mokuton. It's suppression only.


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 26, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Nothing compared to a Super Bijudama. King Itachi, Sage Mode doesn't change one fucking thing, the Jyubi even in its first form is too strong for Hashirama.



It doesn't change anything?
Sage Mode made weak-ass Naruto into a respectable character.

It made Hashirama stronger than a heir of EMS/Mokuton/Rinnegan.



> And we didn't see a large portion of the fucking battle. Kurama wasn't even injured by Hashirama's best fucking attack! Hashirama had to put him to sleep before he could do more damage and rampage.



Patting on his head worked rather well... 



> Dear lord, thats what the manga presented! Without the ability to put Kurama to sleep, he was too strong. Hashirama's own words acknowledge that Kurama was TOO FUCKING STRONG.
> 
> Stop wanking dear lord!



Are you kidding me?

Hashirama can literally choke Kurama to death via Mokuton: Mokuryū, while he inflicts severe discomfort with its own TBB.



> Madara is an arrogant asshole who considers ANYONE who isn't Hashirama below his notice. Kurama has shown again and again and again he was the strongest thing, bar none, compared to the Jyubi.
> 
> Hashirama and Madara have ADVANTAGES over Kurama due to their control, but they aren't stronger than him. Consider this: Maxwell Lord could control Superman with his psychic powers: does this make Superman weaker than Maxwell Lord? NO.



Well, I don't know... DC is gay. 

Perfect Susano'o would slice through Kurama like butter.



> Obito has the Rinnegan, and both Senju and Uchiha DNA in him. He's a Rikudo. Hashirama isn't/



Going by that logic, Danzō can become its Jin. :amazed



> ...
> 
> The Ten-Tails can shrug off its own Bijudama exploding in its body in a emaciated form. There is no Mokuton strong enough to block an attack that can wipe out a fucking country.



Most Sage-enhanced variants can protect Hashirama from a TBB.

Mokuton: Hōbi (multiple layers)? With the Buddha Statue ahead of him?
After it fires thousands of hands... 



> ...
> 
> He can't suppress a planet's worth of unlimited energy.



He can suppress a portion to make it lose strength and become weaker.



> I remember Kurama's barrage
> 
> And no, that's not the size difference.



In relation to the Buddha Statue, Kurama is comparable to an insect. Lol


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Lol who said anything about sucking dry?
> 
> Lol what I said is basically:
> -Base Hashirama = able to match Kyuubi + Madara via Mokuton.


Base Hashirama was overwhelmed to the point he needed Sage Mode. He was running with his tail between his legs. Even when he had a Mokuton Ryu around Kurama, Kurama effortlessly neutralized it.


> -SM hashirama creates Mokuton much larger than base Hashi and Has Shinsensenju.


his Sage Mode ran out right after Kurama's barrage neutralized his Shinsensenju. Size isn't everything.


> -Hashirama can use the juubi as a source of endless chakra bigger than that of Full power Kyuubi.


...what the fuck?


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You fail to mention how he actually kills it.



How did he actually kill Kyuubi? Oh yeah that's right he didn't he just consoled it.

If Hashirama was able to use his Yang abilities to console 9 Bjuu at once why can't he do the same to not full powered Juubi, along with his Mokuton?

I mean if he has to he can try and restrain it with multiple Wood dragon's/Humans and Shinsensju which eventually kill it. He has options here, are you forgetting that each of the 1, 000 hands Shinsensenju has can palm the mountain dwarfing Kyuubi? Juubi isn't eating 1, 000 Mountain busters


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> It doesn't change anything?
> Sage Mode made weak-ass Naruto into a respectable character.
> 
> It made Hashirama stronger than a heir of EMS/Mokuton/Rinnegan.


Naruto was as strong as Kakashi in base so you're wrong.

And Hashirama isnt' stronger than current Madara.


> Patting on his head worked rather well...


Putting it to sleep doesn't mean he's stronger than it. Again, look at my comparison.




> Are you kidding me?
> 
> Hashirama can literally choke Kurama to death via Mokuton: Mokuryū, while he inflicts severe discomfort with its own TBB.


Mokuton: Mokuryu was pwned rather decisively by a mindless Kurama.

Any Biju worth their salt can tank their own Bijudama.


> Well, I don't know... DC is gay.
> 
> Perfect Susano'o would slice through Kurama like butter.


No, it wouldn't. Perfect Susano'o's slashes are far weaker than what Kurama's shown to be able to tank. 




> Going by that logic, Danzō can become its Jin. :amazed


Danzo is an imperfect Rikudo. The manga made it clear Obito is a perfect one, with both Senju and Uchiha DNA in perfect control, and having the Rinnegan.




> Most Sage-enhanced variants can protect Hashirama from a TBB.
> 
> Mokuton: Hōbi (multiple layers)? With the Buddha Statue ahead of him?
> After it fires thousands of hands...


Not saving him from a Bijudama that's 300 kilometers wide. Dear god, why can't you fucking accept what the manga said about the Ten-Tails?




> He can suppress a portion to make it lose strength and become weaker.


No, he can't. The Jyubi is literally beyond anything he can do to it. Hell its being composed of Natural energy, any attempt to siphon off chakra would make things turn to inert stone.

Its power is compared to a FUCKING PLANET.


> In relation to the Buddha Statue, Kurama is comparable to an insect. Lol


No, its not. Your hatred and disrespect for the Biju is palpable though.


----------



## Dr. White (May 26, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> > Base Hashirama was overwhelmed to the point he needed Sage Mode. He was running with his tail between his legs. Even when he had a Mokuton Ryu around Kurama, Kurama effortlessly neutralized it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Rocky (May 26, 2013)

lol at Hashirama suppressing the Juubi what are you on. This is becoming tiresome. Juubi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 9 Bijuu. 


The Kyuubi-Susano'o fusion ate that statue's barrage, and still required suppression. The Juubi ate Naruto & Bee's island vaporizer mega big huge Bijuu Bomb without damage. It shrugs off Shinsuusenju's attacks.

Seriously, Hashirama needed the other 4 Kage to hold down the Juubi.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> No not at all...Madara was forced to pull ot PS+ Kyuubi in order to make Hashi go SM, to which he warned Madara in doing so before bringing out Shinsensenju. Kurama needed the leniance from PS to stop from getting raped by his Bjuudama via Mokuton: Human. Even if Mokuton: Human didn't have Bjuudama replace that with a punch and Kyuubi is still hurting.


Kurama can tank its own Bijudama without trouble, a simple punch would hurt it?

And Hashirama was running, no arguments against that.


> -Yeah after the the Buudhitsva matched a dozen Ps empowered Bjuudama's and nullified the Kyuubi...


Even before that. Kurama had tanked everything that the Sensenju had to offer after PS was stripped from it. And 'PS Empowered'? Dear god, the blades were for the Bijudamas defense.


> -Hashirama's Mokuton = chakra sucking. Juubi = abundant source of Natural chakra. Juubi = giant chakra source to Hashi.
> 
> Shinsensenju controlling is a feat in of itself for SM Hashi..it towers the juubi once again....Lol at you thinking any other sage could accomplish such a feat besides So6P


Hashirama isn't controlling a planets worth of energy and has fucking limits.


----------



## Dr. White (May 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> > lol at Hashirama suppressing the Juubi what are you on. This is becoming tiresome. Juubi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 9 Bijuu.
> 
> 
> Juubi = the sum of all Fullpower Bjuu.
> ...


----------



## Trojan (May 26, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Rocky said:
> 
> 
> > Juubi = the sum of all Fullpower Bjuu.
> ...


----------



## Dr. White (May 26, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Dr. White said:
> 
> 
> > So, shouldn't naruto be able to defeat it in 5m as he did to the others?
> ...


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> No it can't... Madara knew Kurama would have been fucked by the impact which is why he was forced to cover the impact via Prefect susano.


The manga made it clear that Madara had to use Perfect Susano'o on Kurama to save it from being obliterated ON TOP of preventing Hashirama from suppressing it. Any Biju worth their salt has to tank their own Bijudama. Gyuki could do it, and he's weaker than Kurama.


> Full power Shinsensenju > 12 Ps sword enhanced Bjuudama's you do the math.


More like Shinsensenju = a dozen Bijudama's. The PS Sword doesn't enhance any of the Bijudama's destructive power, its just to keep attempts at redirection away.




> -No it didn't, it barely made it against wood dragon and that's it.


Mokuton: Mokuryu wraps around Kurama...then he blasts its head off and makes it useless.


> Wood human sunned him, and without Mountain busting Perfect Susano to protect it/suppliment it, Kyuubi would have been mashed potatoes to Hashirama.


Mokujin never stunned him. 

And it was explicitly said that the Susano'o Armor was to prevent Hashirama from using his suppression.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (May 26, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto was as strong as Kakashi in base so you're wrong.



Kakashi was being sincere to his student, considering he had his ass handed to him by Kakuzu. If you think Base Naruto can fight as Kakashi's equal (prior to the war), there is something wrong with you. 

Without SM/KCM/BM transformation, FRS just injures him greatly.



> And Hashirama isnt' stronger than current Madara.



According to Edo Madara, Hashirama is *still* stronger than him.



> Putting it to sleep doesn't mean he's stronger than it. Again, look at my comparison.



Putting it to sleep allowed him to focus on Madara solely...



> Mokuton: Mokuryu was pwned rather decisively by a mindless Kurama.



There is the word you're looking for! Mindless!!!
What makes you think regular Kurama would come out unscathed?

When Madara used it against BM Naruto - who is supposedly stronger than Kurama by itself - he was experiencing a vast amount of difficulty. 



> Any Biju worth their salt can tank their own Bijudama.



Which is why I mentioned how it would *inflict severe discomfort*...



> No, it wouldn't. Perfect Susano'o's slashes are far weaker than what Kurama's shown to be able to tank.



One of its slashes shouldn't be compared to a TBB or Mokuton techniques; the sheer force and piercing power are phenomenal. 



> Danzo is an imperfect Rikudo. The manga made it clear Obito is a perfect one, with both Senju and Uchiha DNA in perfect control, and having the Rinnegan.



Senju DNA enables the 'perfect' control to transpire.

Even then, I don't remember where it said that "you must be a Rikudou" to become its Jin. Do you mind supplying the panel?



> Not saving him from a Bijudama that's 300 kilometers wide. Dear god, why can't you fucking accept what the manga said about the Ten-Tails?



I'll say it again... Sage-enhanced techniques will protect Hashirama.



> No, he can't. The Jyubi is literally beyond anything he can do to it. Hell its being composed of Natural energy, any attempt to siphon off chakra would make things turn to inert stone.
> 
> Its power is compared to a FUCKING PLANET.



Proof that Hashirama can't absorb its chakra?
At one time, he had the Tailed Beasts under his control.



> No, its not. Your hatred and disrespect for the Biju is palpable though.



Your failure to accept the power difference between Hashirama and a Tailed Beast is evident.


----------



## Trojan (May 26, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> > Wow a strawman fallacy and equivocation fallacy all in one post, *you must be drunker *than I am.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Dr. White (May 26, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> > The manga made it clear that Madara had to use Perfect Susano'o on Kurama to save it from being obliterated ON TOP of preventing Hashirama from suppressing it. Any Biju worth their salt has to tank their own Bijudama. Gyuki could do it, and he's weaker than Kurama.
> 
> 
> -Ok so you concede he had to protect him from the blast, and from Hashirama at the same time. You also realize Full power Kurama > 50% Kurama that Naruto has. 50% Kurama tanked a Juubi Laserdama and Fullpower Kurama is > all other Bjuu combined.
> ...


----------



## Dr. White (May 26, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Dr. White said:
> 
> 
> > > Never have, never will. But it good thing to know that you are at least
> ...


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> -Ok so you concede he had to protect him from the blast, and from Hashirama at the same time. You also realize Full power Kurama > 50% Kurama that Naruto has. 50% Kurama tanked a Juubi Laserdama and Fullpower Kurama is > all other Bjuu combined.


Biju Mode Naruto is a bit stronger than a mindless Kurama that Madara controlled due to the fact both Naruto and Kurama can use their combined intelligence to make their attacks even stronger.

A Yang Chakra Kurama is stronger than all other Biju combined as well, Dr. White.



> No it definitely adds DC and slashing ability. And No Shinsensenju still add hands after the dozen Bjudama's erupted, and it was able to stop Full power Kyuubi after so Shinsensenju > a adozen PS enhanced Bjuudama's.


The sword was just to keep Hashirama catching and redirecting the standard one. Not only that, its still no stronger standard Bijudama of the average Biju. Madara still doesn't know, unlike how Naruto and Kurama do, how to make the Bijudama's more powerful.




> Full power Kurama was able to beat Wood Dragon after being interrupted by it, and without PS base Hashirama's Wood: human would have fucked it up.


Didn't you concede earlier that Kurama wouldn't have been damaged by his own Bijudama? Thus how is Mokujin hurting him?


> Edo Madara's wood dragon isn't Hashirama's. Madara has a couple cells from Hashi, SM Hashi >>> Hashi with a full body of Hashi cells.


When did I bring up Edo Madara? To defeat Mokuryu, you need to destroy its head so then it won't consume chakra.




> *Sonned* him. Wood human atop of Shinsensenju put Kurama to Bed. GG


Suppressing and controlling something isn't the same thing as being more powerful. And even then, Hashirama considered him too powerful to be left free.

From the way the entire fight played out, Hashirama viewed Kurama the greater threat. Hence the constant and desperate suppression attempts.


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12;47335376[QUOTE said:
			
		

> ]Biju Mode Naruto is a bit stronger than a mindless Kurama that Madara controlled due to the fact both Naruto and Kurama can use their combined intelligence to make their attacks even stronger.


Yeah BM Naruto is a bit stronger than FP Kurama(and I mean a bit) but that isn't the same for EMS Madara controlling the Kyuubi with his intelligence which is what base Hashirama fought for most of the fight, combined with Perfect Susano + Kyuubi.



> A Yang Chakra Kurama is stronger than all other Biju combined as well, Dr. White.


Yeah and a yang + Yin chakra Kyuubi + EMs user is even stronger.



> The sword was just to keep Hashirama catching and redirecting the standard one.


Yep and also as you can clearly see it made short work of the Rashomon gates via the sword which means it did damage. You can't just simply discount PS Swords DC output in regards to the move 



> Not only that, its still no stronger standard Bijudama of the average Biju. Madara still doesn't know, unlike how Naruto and Kurama do, how to make the Bijudama's more powerful.


See Above.




> Didn't you concede earlier that Kurama wouldn't have been damaged by his own Bijudama? Thus how is Mokujin hurting him?


Point 1: No I didn't I specifically stated that you conceded that EMS Madara needed to prtoect Kurama from it's own Bjuudama and Hashirama.

Point 2: 1, 000 nigh Mountain Busting hands to Juubi's face.



> Suppressing and controlling something isn't the same thing as being more powerful. And even then, Hashirama considered him too powerful to be left free.


[/QUOTE]
Yes it is. Hashirama supressed Kyuubi during his fight with Madara, and it was longer viable in the fight. Without PS Base Hashirama could have soloed Kyuubi alone, with SM he rapes Kyuubi.

-This is further cemented by the fact that he controlled all 9 including Kurama, and auctioned them out to countries.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Yeah BM Naruto is a bit stronger than FP Kurama(and I mean a bit) but that isn't the same for EMS Madara controlling the Kyuubi with his intelligence which is what base Hashirama fought for most of the fight, combined with Perfect Susano + Kyuubi.


EMS controlled Kurama is actually quite a bit weaker since Kurama's own intelligence can't be used. EMS Madara can't control the size of the Bijudama Kurama can make, unlike Kurama and Naruto. Nor can he control the type, he can't force Kurama to compress the Bijudama and fire it as a beam, or as a wave explosion.

All Madara can do is have Kurama lob standard power Bijudama since that's all he knows about.



> Yeah and a yang + Yin chakra Kyuubi + EMs user is even stronger.


No, the combination is weaker since EMS Madara just views Kurama as a mindless animal, can't control the size, power, or type of Bijudama and even can't control how Kurama fights or benefit from Kurama's vast intelligence and experience.



> Yep and also as you can clearly see it made short work of the Rashomon gates via the sword which means it did damage. You can't just simply discount PS Swords DC output in regards to the move


Rashomon Gates are destroyed with ease as you can see here.

Sorry, PS Swords themselves don't have Destructive Power. They need to be SWUNG to create destructive ability. 



> See Above.


...showed you a DIRECT COMPARISON between the two. Even eyeballing, you can see they are on the same level.



> Point 1: No I didn't I specifically stated that you conceded that EMS Madara needed to prtoect Kurama from it's own Bjuudama and Hashirama.


Kurama was in NO danger from his own Bijudama. The Perfect Susano'o was needed to prevent Hashirama's desperate and constant sealing attempts. 

Gyuki at the epicenter of his own Bijudama, and is undamaged by it.

A weakened, exhausted Gyuki has his own Bijudama explode in his face and survives.

So Kurama can't take his own Bijudama when he's at full power, even though Gyuki can?



> Yes it is. Hashirama supressed Kyuubi during his fight with Madara, and it was longer viable in the fight. Without PS Base Hashirama could have soloed Kyuubi alone, with SM he rapes Kyuubi.


No, he couldn't. All Hashirama could do was suppress the fox. He considered Kurama a far greater threat than Madara. Hence why he constantly attempted, even after his Shinsensenju was defeated, to _put the fox to sleep_. And then Hashirama goes out of his way to praise Kurama's strength and tell him he can't keep him free due to it.

Sorry, the manga has my scenario better than your Hashirama wank scenario.


> -This is further cemented by the fact that he controlled all 9 including Kurama, and auctioned them out to countries.


Hashirama had a handful, perhaps five Biju under his control. No more, no less. He never had all nine. 

Again, your Biju hate and disrespect is palpable.


----------



## Dr. White (May 26, 2013)

SSM12 really?

I will respond to you tomorrow after work around 6 PM eastern time.(US) 

Right now it's late as hell, be back tommorow hopefully, although essentially all my points are highlighted in previous points.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> Kakashi was being sincere to his student, considering he had his ass handed to him by Kakuzu. If you think Base Naruto can fight as Kakashi's equal (prior to the war), there is something wrong with you.
> 
> Without SM/KCM/BM transformation, FRS just injures him greatly.


Base Naruto was stronger than Kakashi. He could outlast him, he could outfight him, he could overwhelm him. Futon: Rasengan is just the icing on the cake.




> According to Edo Madara, Hashirama is *still* stronger than him.


According to Edo Madara, Hashirama is the only one capable of FIGHTING him, there's a difference. 




> Putting it to sleep allowed him to focus on Madara solely...


More like 'I GOT TO GET THIS THING OUT OF THE FIGHT BEFORE WE'RE BOTH KILLED'. Check the desperation on Hashirama's face here, as he is now weakened and tired just to get Kurama out of the fight. 




> There is the word you're looking for! Mindless!!!
> What makes you think regular Kurama would come out unscathed?


Since Kurama has shwon high level intelligence, can control his Bijudama strength, uses roars and shockwaves as shields?


> When Madara used it against BM Naruto - who is supposedly stronger than Kurama by itself - he was experiencing a vast amount of difficulty.


Since Naruto thought wrestling it was the best idea. We see destroying Mokuryu's head is enough to neutralize it.




> Which is why I mentioned how it would *inflict severe discomfort*...


More like tickle him.




> One of its slashes shouldn't be compared to a TBB or Mokuton techniques; the sheer force and piercing power are phenomenal.


Bijudama: Vaporizes entire mountains, leaves incredibly huge craters. Perfect Susano'o Slash: keeps mountains around, does far less damage.

Bijudama wins out on destructive power by leaps and bounds.


> Senju DNA enables the 'perfect' control to transpire.


Danzo had both Senju and Uchiha DNA in him. Yet he couldn't fully control them. Someone with both Senju and Uchiha DNA in perfect sync becomes a Rikudo, plain and simple.


> Even then, I don't remember where it said that "you must be a Rikudou" to become its Jin. Do you mind supplying the panel?


Since the Rikudo Sennin itself was the only thing strong enough to become the Jyubi's Jin?




> I'll say it again... Sage-enhanced techniques will protect Hashirama.


The best tanking feat Hashirama has is tanking a standard powered Bijudama. Nothing suggests he can tank the Ten-Tails, one that was explicitly said to be in another league.




> Proof that Hashirama can't absorb its chakra?
> At one time, he had the Tailed Beasts under his control.


Since _the Ten-Tails'_ power is so huge, it is _compared to a fucking planet._ Not only that, its mostly natural energy, its why it can create natural disasters like Tenpenchii. Thus, what happens when a chakra consuming technique is used on vast quantities of Natural Energy? It turns to stone.




> Your failure to accept the power difference between Hashirama and a Tailed Beast is evident.


No, your failure to except how the Biju are presented in comparison to Hashirama is evidence. Hashirama could CONTROL them, but he wasn't STRONGER than them. Without control (like if disabled in a BD match), he has nothing to hurt, injure, or even bind the Biju with.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (May 26, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Base Naruto was stronger than Kakashi.



Not to my knowledge.



> He could outlast him,



Does this compensate for the experience/intelligence difference? 



> he could outfight him, he could overwhelm him. Futon: Rasengan is just the icing on the cake.



Not really.

Other than the apparent lack of stamina, Kakashi is superior to Base Naruto by a respectable margin; his ninjutsu variety is greater, most importantly.



> According to Edo Madara, Hashirama is the only one capable of FIGHTING him, there's a difference.



According to Edo Madara, Hashirama is the only person that can defeat him.



> More like 'I GOT TO GET THIS THING OUT OF THE FIGHT BEFORE WE'RE BOTH KILLED'. Check the desperation on Hashirama's face here, as he is now weakened and tired just to get Kurama out of the fight.



Did you forget who was controlling Kurama?

If Hashirama were to separate Madara and a Tailed Beast, his fight would be far easier than one with their indefinite combination.

Without SM, he had his hands full and dealt with them accordingly. 
As soon as Kurama w/ Susano'o was unveiled, Hashi changed his demeanor and proceeded to nullify their efforts.



> Since Kurama has shwon high level intelligence, can control his Bijudama strength, uses roars and shockwaves as shields?



Kurama can use these techniques while the Sage-enhanced version of Mokuton: Mokujin is treating him like a toddler? 



> Since Naruto thought wrestling it was the best idea. We see destroying Mokuryu's head is enough to neutralize it.



Leaves room for Senpō: Myōjinmon, too!



> More like tickle him.



You're implying a TBB would tickle Kurama? 

If Roger Clemens were to throw a baseball at your face, would it fucking tickle and make you giggle?



> Bijudama: Vaporizes entire mountains, leaves incredibly huge craters. Perfect Susano'o Slash: keeps mountains around, does far less damage.
> 
> Bijudama wins out on destructive power by leaps and bounds.



Perhaps TBB wins through its massive AoE, but the destructive power isn't similar.



> Danzo had both Senju and Uchiha DNA in him. Yet he couldn't fully control them. Someone with both Senju and Uchiha DNA in perfect sync becomes a Rikudo, plain and simple.



This doesn't answer my question.

Where was it stated that "you must be a Rikudou" to become its Jin?



> Since the Rikudo Sennin itself was the only thing strong enough to become the Jyubi's Jin?



That still isn't an accurate statement, though, unless you think Obito is greater than or equal to Rikudou Sennin.

Senju DNA is doing the "heavy pulling" within control (so to say).



> The best tanking feat Hashirama has is tanking a standard powered Bijudama. Nothing suggests he can tank the Ten-Tails, one that was explicitly said to be in another league.



There isn't any indication that multiple layers of Mokuton: Mokujin and other wood golems - with Sage-enhanced chakra, that is - won't protect Hashirama from a TBB; the weaker variant was capable of accomplishing this feat, and I'm simply adding the amount of power Hashi would have at his disposal.



> Since _the Ten-Tails'_ power is so huge, it is _compared to a fucking planet._ Not only that, its mostly natural energy, its why it can create natural disasters like Tenpenchii. Thus, what happens when a chakra consuming technique is used on vast quantities of Natural Energy? It turns to stone.



Mokuton absorbs the lively energy of Tailed Beasts and creatures alike; it is similar to its counterparts, other than the fact that it is an ultimate form.

The Jūbi is still imperfect, either way.



> No, your failure to except how the Biju are presented in comparison to Hashirama is evidence. Hashirama could CONTROL them, but he wasn't STRONGER than them. Without control (like if disabled in a BD match), he has nothing to hurt, injure, or even bind the Biju with.



He chokes Kurama to death via Mokuton: Mokujin and flattens it into the ground with thousands of hands; that isn't particularly needed, either.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (May 26, 2013)

I seriously doubt Kishimoto created the Juubi with the idea that Hashirama would be able to defeat it, or vice versa (creating Hashirama with the idea that he could kill the Juubi on his own). The beast is clearly of another level to everything seen thus far in the manga, and if Hashirama could defeat it alone, then he wouldn't need Naruto, Sasuke or Sakura to attack it while he and the other Hokage trap it. 

Feats are important, but on a fight of this level, literary intent needs to be taken into account as well.


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## Jagger (May 26, 2013)

The Juubi creates the same Bijuudama he used to destroy the Alliance's HQ. He oblirates anything Hashirama has shown so far and I doubt he will show up something even stronger than Shinsuusenju.


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## ueharakk (May 26, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Feats are important, but on a fight of this level, literary intent needs to be taken into account as well.



The thing is, the juubi is on another level both by feats and by literary intent as Hashirama's half shinsuusenjuu was busted by a net total attack that doesn't come close to the power of the combined bijuudama that the juubi shrugged off.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 26, 2013)

Nah the only human actually defeating the juubi is the phenomenon know as the sage of the sage paths it does not matter if it is in V1, V2 or whatever. 

Even surviving against the juubi for 10-15 minutes would be a blessing.


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## Lurko (May 27, 2013)

Jubbi takes this easy.


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## Fiiction (Jan 18, 2014)

Shinsuusenju. Wouldn't help that much anyway.


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## Jagger (Jan 18, 2014)

Shinsuusenju gets completely oblirated by one of the Juubi's attacks. 

If the Juubi gets pinned down, he can multiply itself into little clones and start attacking Hashirama. Of course, he can defend himself, but for how long? The immense and monstrous power of the Juubi we've seen so part is thanks to the first seven Bijuu's chakra.

Now, add Kurama (the strongest one and the one with the biggest chakra reserves) along with Hachibi and you would need a lot more than just Shinsuusenju to put that thing down.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 18, 2014)

Ummmm Hashirama himself said he is inferior to a brainless Juubito.


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## R o r o n o a Z o r o (Jan 18, 2014)

Hashi won't stand a chance against Juubi though he can do much better than what whole SA did,He can only win if he can seal it inside of him.


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## Bonly (Jan 18, 2014)

>Former Obd Lurker post made on  05-27-2013

>Fiiction post made on 01-18-2014

Did you really need to bring back a dead thread when nothing has changed?


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 18, 2014)

I remember lurking this thread. Good times.

It makes one lose all faith in the Hashirama fandom.


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## ARGUS (Jan 18, 2014)

Juubi eats hashirama for breakfast 
everything hashirama throws at him would be meanningless


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## ueharakk (Jan 18, 2014)

He loses to the V1 Juubi.

He has no attack that comes close to the destructive power of Naruto and Bee's combined bijuudama, the same dama that didn't even inflict noticeable damage on the juubi.  The valley that the combined bijuudama created BEFORE IT EVEN EXPLODED is far larger than the scar that hashi and madara's fight left on the earth considering it's wide enough to house the V2 juubi.

Hashirama simply doesn't have anything that can put it down.  Sure he can pin it down with his gates, but what's next?  While he's sitting there holding the seal, the juubi eradicates him with a laserdama.  He hasn't shown the ability to simultaneously pin the juubi down and use mokutons even on the level of mokujin and FTW.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 18, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> Juubi eats hashirama for breakfast
> everything hashirama throws at him would be meanningless



Though I know Juubito wins, This is not true. He has SM.


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Jan 18, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Hashirama can hold it down but he lacks the firepower to kill it. It on the other hand has plenty of firepower to kill him.



So Hashi wins in a WWE match but not a real match.


----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 18, 2014)

How did the rikudou sage defeat jyuubi? He sealed it inside himself and became a jinchiruki. Hashirama can seal the jyuubi's tails and mouth and simply use his DNA to control it and seal it inside himself. I see Hashirama doing this 65% of the time


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## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

^

Hashirama does not even have sealing jutsu, how is he going to seal the Juubi inside himself
without sealing jutsu?


----------



## Kyu (Jan 18, 2014)

Hashirama can't even defeat an incomplete Initial stage Juubi. Let alone the beast's superior forms.

Wood Dragon is destroyed with absurd ease.

Wood Golem gets smashed to sawdust.

Shinsuusenju is fucked over by a full powered Lazerdama.

The _God of Shinobi_ dies miserably.


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## ARGUS (Jan 18, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Though I know Juubito wins, This is not true. He has SM.



So what if he has SM 
Juubidamas nuke him off the planet
It's as simple as that


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## Kyu (Jan 18, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> So Hashi wins in a WWE match but not a real match.



Hashirama is John Cena while Juubi is Brock Lesnar. 

We all know who murders who in a real fight.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 18, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Hashirama is John Cena while Juubi is Brock Lesnar.
> 
> We all know who murders who in a real fight.



Those forearms doe.


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## Kyu (Jan 18, 2014)

> Those Forearms doe.



...Are ripped off and smashed over Cenarama's head.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 18, 2014)

everyone conveniently ignored the god gates that already restrained the juubi. 

hashirama already used the mokujin while the gates were out. they have no effect on his chakra after they are used. 

hashirama pins the juubi down then puts it to sleep with a tap on the forehead.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 18, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> everyone conveniently ignored the god gates that already restrained the juubi.
> 
> hashirama already used the mokujin while the gates were out. they have no effect on his chakra after they are used.
> 
> hashirama pins the juubi down then puts it to sleep with a tap on the forehead.



Is this not a Juubito Vs Hashirama thread?

Edit: Lol facepalm I read too fast, Hashirama would win this.


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## Jagger (Jan 18, 2014)

The Gates are doing nothing to the Juubi. Restrain him? Put him down like it would do to the Kyuubi or any other Bijuu? Please. The Juubi was still capable of removing parts of his body and multiple itself even while being "down" by Hashirama's falling gates.

They get destroyed, oblirated, overpowered, etc. It doesn't matter what kind of word you use, it's the same at the end.


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## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> everyone conveniently ignored the god gates that already restrained the juubi.
> 
> hashirama already used the mokujin while the gates were out. they have no effect on his chakra after they are used.
> 
> hashirama pins the juubi down then puts it to sleep with a tap on the forehead.



are you for real? 

Even if he pins the Juubi down, it still can use its TBB. 
It can sends thousands of clones to attack Hashirama. .


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## Kyu (Jan 18, 2014)

To be fair, the Juublings wont necessarily be a problem for Hashirama so long as he can defend himself. 

Regardless, Lazerdama sends him back to the afterlife. Not even Hashirama's fanboys can change the end result.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jan 18, 2014)

Hashirama still cannot beat the juubi.

Only RS tier fighters can put the juubi down without getting turned into history


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 18, 2014)

Jagger said:


> The Gates are doing nothing to the Juubi. Restrain him? Put him down like it would do to the Kyuubi or any other Bijuu? Please. The Juubi was still capable of removing parts of his body and multiple itself even while being "down" by Hashirama's falling gates.


the juubi spawns that were being decimated by the mokujins mere footsteps pose any threat to hashirama? nonsense.


> They get destroyed, oblirated, overpowered, etc. It doesn't matter what kind of word you use, it's the same at the end.


the juubi destroys hashiramas gates? why didnt it do this in the manga?



Elia said:


> are you for real?
> 
> Even if he pins the Juubi down, it still can use its TBB.


the juubi never used tbb after hashirama applied the head seal.


> It can sends thousands of clones to attack Hashirama. .


 the ones that got obliterated from the mokujin taking a mere footstep in their direction?


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## Trojan (Jan 18, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> the juubi never used tbb after hashirama applied the head seal.
> 
> the ones that got obliterated from the mokujin taking a mere footstep in their direction?



- It can destroys Hashirama before that.
- And? is he going to fight forever?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 18, 2014)

Elia said:


> - It can destroys Hashirama before that.


the juubi obliterates hashirama before he can apply a head seal? lets ask the juubi how well that worked out.


> - And? is he going to fight forever?



he fights as long as he wants. the juubi clones wont affect hashiramas ability to get to the juubi in any way whatsoever.


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## Psp123789 (Jan 18, 2014)

Hashirama has no way of killing the juubi while the juubi has many ways to kill him. Hashirama gets stomped.


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## The World (Jan 19, 2014)

Hashi needed 3 other Hokages just to contain him

he's gonna get killed eventually

forever fighting a losing battle


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## tkpirate (Jan 19, 2014)

Hashirama may defeat V1 juubi.but V2 juubi will win with mid difficulty.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 19, 2014)

I guess I will be the devils advocat here:

The Jubi has shown to be able to be interrupted during the formation of a Bijudama, it was as easy as raising one of its feet with some basic Doton to comepletely miss its target, furthermore, Hashirama can use Senpō Miyojinmon   on all the Jubi's tails almost instantly, this can cause a slight unbalancing movment that could tip a charging Bijudama cowards the sky. Then, the head seal  can keep the Jubi in place without using a Bijudama, and it also comes down almost instantly. The problem is actually destroying/killing/sealing the Jubi, as far as feats go, Hashirama cannot do a single one of those to the Jubi, Aš for the Jubi clones, they have no sensing skills, if Hashiramas Kajukai Korin's pollen does not work on them, he could always hide inside his Mokouton like Madara did.. It has also been mentioned that with his cells, people can live without food or water by the Zetsus . This is the real definition of a stalemate here.


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## Ghost (Jan 19, 2014)

Juubi sneezes. If it wants to kill something, it kills. Only Rikudo can defeat it.


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## ueharakk (Jan 19, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> I guess I will be the devils advocat here:
> 
> The Jubi has shown to be able to be interrupted during the formation of a Bijudama, it was as easy as raising one of its feet with some basic Doton to comepletely miss its target, furthermore, Hashirama can use Senpō Miyojinmon   on all the Jubi's tails almost instantly, this can cause a slight unbalancing movment that could tip a charging Bijudama cowards the sky. Then, the head seal  can keep the Jubi in place without using a Bijudama, and it also comes down almost instantly. The problem is actually destroying/killing/sealing the Jubi, as far as feats go, Hashirama cannot do a single one of those to the Jubi, Aš for the Jubi clones, they have no sensing skills, if Hashiramas Kajukai Korin's pollen does not work on them, he could always hide inside his Mokouton like Madara did.. It has also been mentioned that with his cells, people can live without food or water by the Zetsus . This is the real definition of a stalemate here.



not a stalemate at all.  Lets say Hashi does throw one bijuudama off course.  Does that mean that happens to all of them?  Bind the juubi, then what?  The juubi can withstand a super juubidama blowing up in its face, Hashirama's most powerful jutsu gets busted by an attack way weaker than that of the juubidamas that V2 was spamming.  I don't see how the head seal prevents the juubi from using a BD at all.  Not only that but Hashirama was only allowed the opening to put it in the head seal after it was weakeend by taking it's own super bijuudama's blast while contained in the hokage's barrier.  The juubi didn't use a bijuudama while its head was pinned because it would have hurt itself just like before.  that's the whole reason the hokages kept the barrier up even after hashirama pinned the beast down with his gates.  Had the gates possessed the ability to prevent the monster from using TBB, then there's no reason to keep the barrier up since hashi has it pinned and it can't use TBB.

All you've shown is that hashirama can survive against the juubi for a while by deflecting a bijuudama and by pinning the juubi down.  Once the juubi detonates a bijuudama anywhere in the near vicinity, Hashirama is gone along with all his mokuton while the juubi sustains minor damage.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 19, 2014)

The bits of Hashirama's cells and chakra that Obito and Madara had were enough to control the Juubi.

Hashirama, having a Hashirama's worth of both, should probably be able to suppress it.  I mean he pinned in by casually dropping a few dozen sealing pillars around it, and we know he can drop a whole lot more.  He could very likely at least subdue the thing with his bijuu suppression technique, or, make it his slave like Madara and Tobi did.  "I said I'm gonna pilot that thing!"

On the other hand you'd think he would have done it already if he could, but then against he was bothered by Madara partway through his plans to deal with it, and a lot of what he was doing seemed to be to prevent it from exploding the alliance, and Madara and Tobi had already asserted their dominance over it, so who knows.  

As far as killing it, I'm not actually sure the Juubi is something that can be killed.  It kind of just Juubi's around, being the Juubi, and not caring what's done to it because it's the Juubi.  Maybe it rolls over or blasts stuff sometimes.  Kind of like how I imagine 100% Katsuya wins matches when people post the :blindkatsuya emote in threads.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 19, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> not a stalemate at all.  Lets say Hashi does throw one bijuudama off course.  Does that mean that happens to all of them?  Bind the juubi, then what?  The juubi can withstand a super juubidama blowing up in its face, Hashirama's most powerful jutsu gets busted by an attack way weaker than that of the juubidamas that V2 was spamming.  I don't see how the head seal prevents the juubi from using a BD at all.  Not only that but Hashirama was only allowed the opening to put it in the head seal after it was weakeend by taking it's own super bijuudama's blast while contained in the hokage's barrier.  The juubi didn't use a bijuudama while its head was pinned because it would have hurt itself just like before.  that's the whole reason the hokages kept the barrier up even after hashirama pinned the beast down with his gates.  Had the gates possessed the ability to prevent the monster from using TBB, then there's no reason to keep the barrier up since hashi has it pinned and it can't use TBB..



No, the Jubi did not use its Bijudama because it couldn't, the barrier was released later, yet it still did not use it. It was not possible for it to use a Bijudama with the head seal on it. Once he does its a stalemate, he can't finish it off and it will be helplessly binded until he dies of age.


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## Krippy (Jan 19, 2014)

Hashirama at best could pin it down for a while and surpress it. He has no way to kill it or seal it iirc.


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