# Is Kishimoto A Bad Writer?



## Bruce Wayne (Jan 1, 2013)

This is probably my first thread in this section..This is just a short post about what I think about Kishi as a writer 

Let's beginning:

     Ever since the time skip, the trend as been that Part 2 Naruto is shit. I do agree that it is shit compared to Part 1, but think about is it really shit? Does the over all theme and general story of Part 2 Naruto shit? Nope. Kishimoto is a good writer when it comes to overall themes and making us emotionally connected with the story. For example, look at Jiraiya's death and the meeting of Minato and Naruto. Don't tell me you did not shed a tear or at least feel some kind of sorrow during those moments. I cried buckets during Jiraiya's death.  The theme of Student surpassing master was done well, especially when it made Jiraiya realize what his relationship with Naruto really was. 

The only thing that is making Kishi look bad as a writer is his characterization. He introduces the characters and he does nothing with them. Look at the Konoha 11. They were introduced during the Chunin Exams. Their main purpose was to be the focus in the Chunin Exams with the main character's development, after that Kishi would not use them anymore. And since Kishi can not kill them off, they are just sitting there in the story. 


To put it simple, Kishimoto to the same Akira Toriyama did with Part 2 Dragonball. Overall Kishimoto is a good writer, he just sucks at characterization.


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## Rios (Jan 1, 2013)

Go big or go home. Thats what part 2 essentially is. The scope got bigger and the expectations grew with it. Unfortunately he doesnt seem to feel comfortable doing a grand scale war, thats why it was reduced to battles with several overpowered edos. Not going to delve deep into this but IMO he tried to swallow something way too big. 

Thankfully Naruto is popular enough to keep him afloat.


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## Ghost (Jan 1, 2013)

kishi is the best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

*No!

I like this manga, so I like Kishimoto writing it. It has it flaws, but I still enjoy reading it a lot and I am still looking forward to each next chapter.

What I am trying to say is, Kishimoto have written a manga that amused me and still does. So I am thankful. 

I know I am now 'swimming in the wrong direction' here on KT were trolling and raging sadly has become more important then actually discussing. But oh well...*


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## NW (Jan 1, 2013)

Kishi is a great writer imo, he definitely has his bad moments though, that's for sure.


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

No Worries said:


> Kishi is a great writer imo, he definitely has his bad moments though, that's for sure.



*This, fair enough. He is writing this manga for years now and still millions of people arround the whole world are following and enjoying it. This manga is big, and contains a lot of chapters. I guess it is normal not everything can be as good as we want. But overall, Kishi is a very good writer for sure.*


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## MYJC (Jan 1, 2013)

I don't think he's a bad writer at all. 

That said, at times he's a ham and has the characters react way too melodramatically to things (fainting over Sasuke) and occasionally writes bad villain motives (Obito).


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## Escargon (Jan 1, 2013)

I like most of Kishis early work and thats in part 2 too but i dont like when he drags fights and then clusterfucks a chapter and offpanels everything. And his reveals and villains motives sucks. He should just make villains evil instead of making them missunderstood.


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## Prince Vegeta (Jan 1, 2013)

No he is a good writer hence i keep reading his Manga.


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## Arisu (Jan 1, 2013)

Shirosaki said:


> kishi is the best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I agree!


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## Miiami (Jan 1, 2013)

He doesn't even know how to make a Heroine,where's good writing in here? Look at fairy tail,bleach,one piece all females get their time in there. Good writer would obviously know what to do with his heroine.


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## Csdabest (Jan 1, 2013)

He handles characters badly. Which if you do that it can turn a good story into shit. What has happened is that the story is shit. But it has moments we love and developmenets that we care about because of the time invested. Its the reason why i keep watching resident evil movie series. Kishi could have redeemed himself with the war. But having naruto do mass kagebushin and solo the war pretty much and not spend times on the  fights for the side characters to flesh out and showcase new abilities. Messed it up for me.


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

Csdabest said:


> But having naruto do mass kagebushin and solo the war pretty much and not spend times on the  fights for the side characters to flesh out and showcase new abilities. Messed it up for me.


*
I do not agree with you, but I recommand you to watch the anime then since the side characters over there gets a lot of attention during this war till so far! Just a tip.*


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## Shimomeikato (Jan 1, 2013)

lol just try to make a story as long as naruto without mistakes and to keep the story interesting. Its hard, every chapter it gets harder. I think Kishi is a great writer, how many manga's got so many chapters and are still releasing?

Not all that much so dont blame him


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 1, 2013)

Expecting pierrot to pick up the slack for kishimoto's failure is not an excuse for him 

Also, of course he is. What other answer can be given?


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## White (Jan 1, 2013)

He invented Sakura so that automatically puts him leagues above most.


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 1, 2013)

Miiami said:


> He doesn't even know how to make a Heroine,where's good writing in here? Look at fairy tail,bleach,one piece all females get their time in there. Good writer would obviously know what to do with his heroine.


All the series you just named have shit heroines except for One Piece which does not have a main heroine.


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## Arisu (Jan 1, 2013)

^ Maybe because it's shonen and the focus on women is really low xD


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## GrandLordAtos (Jan 1, 2013)

My take is that his writing is average at worst, and interesting at best. He's not the worst offender of shonen decay, and a lot of people are still enjoying his work quite a bit. He touches up on themes not really tackled anymore in stories, and tries to make likable characters with large fan followings. He has several weaknesses as a writer, and this is pretty obvious, but there's a reason even the people who bitch about his writing come back to read it.

Whether they just like a single character, or love the overarching plot, Kishimoto has SOME talent as a writer, else these forums would be emptier than they are. Not all people will enjoy this story, and while I agree that part 1 was a little more enjoyable, I don't think that makes part 2 'shit' - just not everyone's cup of tea.


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## Kumanri (Jan 1, 2013)

I wouldn't be reading Naruto for the past 10+ years if Kishi is a bad writer. There must be some elements in his story that keeps people from reading on even though there are down moments. It is not easy to write a running series for 10 years and there is a high chance he forgets some bits of the plot or characters here and there. Especially if character popularity, editorial concerns, deadlines etc are involved, it is almost impossible to have a flawless storyline. 

So no, Kishi is not a bad writer. Not at all.


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

*It is funny that some people say "Kishi is a bad writer" and then give as reason because he forgot there favorite character for a while. I mean, this manga contains so much popular characters, Kishi can not favor everyone. My favorite character, Jiraiya (believe me, I really liked this character a lot because he was as epic as funny), died years ago. I got over it, kept reading the manga and it is still amusing me!*


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## Imagine (Jan 1, 2013)

Average    .


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 1, 2013)

Arisu_NaruHinaFan said:


> ^ Maybe because it's shonen and the focus on women is really low xD



Although true, but there are other shonen series that have good heroines.


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## Miiami (Jan 1, 2013)

-Dragon- said:


> All the series you just named have shit heroines except for One Piece which does not have a main heroine.



Bleach Rukia -In a 2007 character poll from the Japanese magazine Newtype magazine character polls, Rukia has been featured as one of the most popular female characters from any anime. She has also appeared twice in the Anime Grand Prix polls, ranking as one of the most popular female anime characters.

Fairy tail Lucy - Lucy is currently the second most popular girl in the series. She gets fights,she gets ALOT of manga time, she is likeable.

One piece Nami and Robin, well they're totally liked. =D


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## Ruby (Jan 1, 2013)

I think he's a good writer. Not the best but definitely above average


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 1, 2013)

Imagine said:


> Average    .



Care to explain?


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## Arisu (Jan 1, 2013)

My favorite characters are Hinata and Sasuke. At first it was only Hinata but I noticed she's not getting enough spotlight (maybe because she's a girl and a side character). So I picked one favorite male main character to get more interested in the whole story and not skipping chapters out of boredom. At the end I'm satisfied in Hinata's character, she rocked in 615. Now I'm just waiting for Sasuke to appear and rock like he usually does


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 1, 2013)

Miiami said:


> Bleach Rukia -In a 2007 character poll from the Japanese magazine Newtype magazine character polls, Rukia has been featured as one of the most popular female characters from any anime. She has also appeared twice in the Anime Grand Prix polls, ranking as one of the most popular female anime characters.
> 
> Fairy tail Lucy - Lucy is currently the second most popular girl in the series. She gets fights,she gets ALOT of manga time, she is likeable.
> 
> One piece Nami and Robin, well they're totally liked. =D



What does popularity have to do with a good writen heroine?

Lucy likable?


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

-Dragon- said:


> Although true, but there are other shonen series that have good heroines.



*I am sure both Hinata and Sakura will get a lot of panel time this year. Hinata with Naruto and Sakura with Sasuke. Sasuke will show up and then Kishi will go to Sakura's feelings again. *


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## Arisu (Jan 1, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> *I am sure both Hinata and Sakura will get a lot of panel time this year. Hinata with Naruto and Sakura with Sasuke. Sasuke will show up and then Kishi will go to Sakura's feelings again. *



If Kishi would give Sakura at least one good fight, her popularity would boost like crazy. I notice fans would like to see her in action a lot but are dissapointed it doesn't happen. I believe Kishi will give her spotlight that she deserves, if he did it for Hinata, why not for his main heroine? There's still a lot of time until the end of this manga, so the time for Sakura will definitely come. If you think Kishi is a good writer, just have faith in him.


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

*I have faith in him. He already gave Ino and Hinata this year some big importance. Sakura will follow and I hope Tenten too.

As long the fights remain cool... But that has never been a problem.*


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## Miiami (Jan 1, 2013)

-Dragon- said:


> What does popularity have to do with a good writen heroine?
> 
> Lucy likable?



LOL I just provided you a fact that she is second post popular female, maybe you don't like her, but don't talk about others. And most important is that she is always here, she doesn't dissapear for 100 chapter, she gets her fights. 

And in Naruto Heroine is one of most hated characters that rarely even appears, she's being made fun of just because she was hit by a rock.


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## Revolution (Jan 1, 2013)

I am reserving my judgement for the end of the manga.  Kishi has disapointed me with his justification of genocide, so I wait to see if he keeps the message "killing the Uchiha off is  a good thing" or not.  

With various characters, Kishi has admitted himself he wanted to do more with the characters then he had time for.  Even Hidan had so many powers and abilities that were cut from the manga for pacing.


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 1, 2013)

Miiami said:


> LOL I just provided you a fact that she is second post popular female, maybe you don't like her, but don't talk about others. And most important is that she is always here, she doesn't dissapear for 100 chapter, she gets her fights.



Popularity does not equal quality. Lucy is a terrible character that has not development ever since chapter 1. All she does is get beaten and cry. 



> And in Naruto Heroine is one of most hated characters that rarely even appears, she's being made fun of just because she was hit by a rock.



Sakura may be terrible but she is better written than Lucy, Orohime, and Rukia.


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## Miiami (Jan 1, 2013)

-Dragon- said:


> Popularity does not equal quality. Lucy is a terrible character that has not development ever since chapter 1. All she does is get beaten and cry.
> 
> 
> 
> Sakura may be terrible but she is better written than Lucy, Orohime, and Rukia.



You will give me cancer  Maybe you should first go and re-read those mangas, Lucy's development was clearly stated by herself I wont even bother to explain, i'll just stop responding you here since I have no idea what you're talking about, some made up things


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## Kaim (Jan 1, 2013)

LOL @ all these people saying he isn't a good writer.  Where's your manga? Where's your book you wrote? Why are you still here on the forums reading about his manga, better yet, why are you still reading the manga?

Oh, because you can't get enough of dat Kishi ass, that's why.


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## Stannis (Jan 1, 2013)

Kaim said:


> LOL @ all these people saying he isn't a good writer.  Where's your manga? Where's your book you wrote? Why are you still here on the forums reading about his manga, better yet, why are you still reading the manga?



Oh yeah, I need to be a writer to judge other writers  

Ot: yes he is


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 1, 2013)

Boshi said:


> Oh yeah, I need to be a writer to judge other writers
> 
> Ot: yes he is


Explain                     .


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 1, 2013)

You don't need to be a writer in order to critically critique 

I can say a game is shit, i don't have to develop video games in order to say that with some semblance of knowing what i'm talking about.


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## Dark Red Z (Jan 1, 2013)




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## Hoshigaki Kisame (Jan 1, 2013)

If he wasn't a good writer, then I wouldn't be reading this manga right now. Kishi _is_ a good writer. It's just that he has been a letdown at times by making bad decisions.


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

*It is always funny that most of the people who like Kishi give good reasons why, and people who don't like Kishi don't give any arguments except for stupid reasons as 'it lacks my favorite character'...*

*I respect every opinion, but please also say why. Thank you. *


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## Escargon (Jan 1, 2013)

The quality is of a 4 year old with downs decided to mess up with a change-the-story-of-a-manga-for-kids-program.


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

*Escargon, not you too, bro. Not you to having the KT-troll syndrome.*


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## Escargon (Jan 1, 2013)

Im not saying that Kishis a bad writer at that point, im starting to think he actually is a pure genius.

Actually me and my friends agrees, if we are using a quote, it must be from a human above humans.

We are using that quote alot IRL. It starts to get a bit over the top.

My boss at the office said for himself "Why the fuck is this machine never working" (he wanted to copy some papers) and i replied "Because you let Rin die." and hes like "who the fucks Rin? Did i miss something?" and im like "no im just joking around, its from a manga" and he said "dont fuck with me what did i do?"

And working downstairs is also damn fun. We are using random Naruto quotes alot. Thanks Kishi.


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## Kaim (Jan 1, 2013)

Nah you don't have to be a writer to critique...but why are you still here?  Hoping things will get better?  By Einstein's definition, you'd be considered insane.

If you keep reading the manga and these forums about the manga, he's a good writer.


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## Escargon (Jan 1, 2013)

Kaim said:


> Nah you don't have to be a writer to critique...but why are you still here?  Hoping things will get better?  By Einstein's definition, you'd be considered insane.
> 
> If you keep reading the manga and these forums about the manga, he's a good writer.



I agree. The ones making the SAW sequels are good in some ways.


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

Escargon said:


> I agree. The ones making the SAW sequels are good in some ways.



*I really hope you know this is a bad comparison*.


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## Kaim (Jan 1, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> *I really hope you know this is a bad comparison*.



I didn't even get it lol.


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## Raiden (Jan 1, 2013)

With a manga second only to One Piece, of course .

You can't really dispute that "Naruto" is genius. But the course of plot two was obviously not planned well. It's not only the big jutsu that were problematic. The story tries to hard to connect everything to Naruto saving Sasuke. It would have been far better had Sasuke done something else by this point. That was the beauty of part one. It flowed well.


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 1, 2013)

Kunoichi no Kiri said:


> He's a pretty decent writer.
> 
> Spoiler: Your favorite character dying doesn't make him bad.
> 
> You want to see bad writing? Go on over to Mangafox or whatever and click on a random manga you've never heard of. 96% chance it's total rubbish.



I pretty much agree with you.


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## Escargon (Jan 1, 2013)

The SAW sequels are bad but they make us have to go and watch them.

Guess thats the same for many people hating this manga.


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

Escargon said:


> The SAW sequels are bad but they make us have to go and watch them.
> 
> Guess thats the same for many people hating this manga.


*
No, I stopped after Saw 2 because it became shit, but are you seriously comparise Hollywood produtions from each 80 minutes with a manga older then 10 years?! C'monn, bro...* 
*
And I don't believe many people hate this manga. In contrary, the very most (more then 80-90 procent) just love it, else it would be not that popular still after all those years.*


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 1, 2013)

Raiden said:


> With a manga second only to Bleach, of course .
> 
> You can't really dispute that "Naruto" is genius. But the course of plot two was obviously not planned well. It's not only the big jutsu that were problematic. The story tries to hard to connect everything to Naruto saving Sasuke. It would have been far better had Sasuke done something else by this point. That was the beauty of part one. It flowed well.



Second to Bleach? 
Ranking:
One Piece>Naruto>Toriko>Hunter X Hunter and alot of other manga.


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

*Please don't start with rankings because else this thread changes in a tard war.*


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## LadyTenTen (Jan 1, 2013)

Kishimoto would be an even greater writer if his second editor never existed.
I started to notice the quality of the story went down after they changed the first one.


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## Raiden (Jan 1, 2013)

-Dragon- said:


> Second to Bleach?
> Ranking:
> One Piece>Naruto>Toriko>Hunter X Hunter and alot of other manga.



I meant One Piece.

>writing early in the morning


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## Escargon (Jan 1, 2013)

Some people read this manga because they expect it to turn good again.
Pretty much like the SAW-movies.

Or you can say "i want to see how it ends."

Thats what i mean.


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## Rosi (Jan 1, 2013)

This scene was _supposed_ to cause shitstorm and reaction similar to this though:



and I guess Kishi succeeded, so he is not that bad after all 

To OP, Kishi is obviously not as bad as people like to claim(he perfectly uses symbolism, parallels, etc), but he is not very good shounen writer too. Average, I would say, but it's enough for me, because I like a lot of his characters(not precisely things he does with them though).


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## king81992 (Jan 1, 2013)

Kishi is a good writer and Naruto is a great series.However some things were handled poorly.


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

*Nevermind, just saying the Saw comparison with a manga like Naruto can not be taken serious, bro. With all respect. *


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## Escargon (Jan 1, 2013)

I just gave an example of why people read or watch things they dont like. They have hopes even if its like 10 years since they last liked it.

I am not comparing SAW to Naruto but some things are pretty similar. Like Dr Gordon and Obito with their logical flashbacks.


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## Eternity (Jan 1, 2013)

He is a great writer IMO. I find it hilarious that so many people speak as if they are expert writers, or that they have the absolute say in what shounen or good writing is "supposed" to look like. Such arrogance.


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 1, 2013)

Raiden said:


> I meant One Piece.
> 
> >writing early in the morning



All is forgiven. 



LadyTenTen said:


> Kishimoto would be an even greater writer if his second editor never existed.
> I started to notice the quality of the story went down after they changed the first one.



Yes, editors can really affect a story. Kishi never planned on making using Karin, Suigetsu, and Jugo. Kishi wanted Tsuande to fight pein. 

He switched Editors this year in the beginning of November/October.


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## Escargon (Jan 1, 2013)

Is it the editors fault that Obitos flashback is like what it is? And makes every villain a missunderstood teddybear that kills babies? Actually i have nothing against the killing part, more like the teddybear part.


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## Dark Red Z (Jan 1, 2013)




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## Seraphiel (Jan 1, 2013)

He is pretty average, I wouldn't call him bad but compare the Zabuza arc to any other and there is quite a big difference, yes I think forest of death and onward was nowhere near as good as the Zabuza arc not just part 2.


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## Dark Red Z (Jan 1, 2013)




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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 1, 2013)

Seraphiel said:


> He is pretty average, I wouldn't call him bad but compare the Zabuza arc to any other and there is quite a big difference, yes I think forest of death and onward was nowhere near as good as the Zabuza arc not just part 2.



This is the first.


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

*Someone give Dark Red Z a rep or something, so that he is happy and stop with this ridicolous bad trolling shit.*


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## Dark Red Z (Jan 1, 2013)

I am providing examples of questionable, at best, writing. OP asks if he is a bad writer, let the posters decide from these........polarizing panels.


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## Seraphiel (Jan 1, 2013)

-Dragon- said:


> This is the first.



Huh? Sorry I don't quite get your reply.


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 1, 2013)

Seraphiel said:


> Huh? Sorry I don't quite get your reply.



I mean, this is the first time I saw someone say the Zabuza Arc was the best.


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## Escargon (Jan 1, 2013)

Dark Red Z said:


> I am providing examples of questionable, at best, writing. OP asks if he is a bad writer, let the posters decide from these........polarizing panels.



Heres one for you then:


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

Dark Red Z said:


> I am providing examples of questionable, at best, writing. OP asks if he is a bad writer, let the posters decide from these........polarizing panels.



*You post a few panels while this manga has millions of it. And while the very most are very good. The few panels you post have pro-and contro, this has been raged enough in KT. Not again in this thread, please!

I read some good stuff in this thread wich is a long time ago in KT that is full with bad trollers (like you are doing now) so please stop it.*


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## Mako (Jan 1, 2013)

Sarahmint said:


> *I am reserving my judgement for the end of the manga.*  Kishi has disapointed me with his justification of genocide, so I wait to see if he keeps the message "killing the Uchiha off is  a good thing" or not.



This.

I can't judge anything unless the story is completely finished.


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## Seraphiel (Jan 1, 2013)

-Dragon- said:


> I mean, this is the first time I saw someone say the Zabuza Arc was the best.



Oh I see. It was the only arc for me in which Naruto was a good char and not a badly designed badly characterized person.

The scenes with him realizing what a shinobi is and his talk with Zabuza was what made him epic for me, now I can't stand him as a character.


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## Goud (Jan 1, 2013)

He's not THE best, but if he wasn't, no one would be reading this manga.


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## Lelouch71 (Jan 1, 2013)

Kishi has good ideas but bad execution. Naruto had some charm and better writing in part 1. Part 2 been a complete mess. Naruto was basically being written out of his own manga in favor of Sasuke. Kishi had to create a ridiculous family feud, Rikudo, and child of prophecy storyline to give Naruto some relevancy again. Almost all the characters that aren't Uchiha, Naruto, Killerbee, Minato, and Nagato were worthless. The side character became nothing more than fillers. Sakura showed some progress and potential in being a good heroine, but she was trashed once again. Almost all the villains were handle poorly. If anything they feel like the underdog. 

I'll give the devil his due. Kishi does know how to make interesting villains and environment. He's not horrible, but he's not great either. Kishi is a mediocre at best writer. The manga hasn't gotten so bad where I would just quit (like I did with Bleach) but quite frankly I don't really care about this manga anymore. I use to be a huge Naruto fan some years ago. But now I'm just indifferent. I still like the games though.


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## ~Howling~ (Jan 1, 2013)

I basically don't care for anything anymore except for Kakashi,can't be a good sign,but maybe it's just me .With a long-running story like Naruto inconsistencies are to be expected,but i feel as if Kishi dug himself too deep with the whole Tobito thing .


-Dragon- said:


> Sakura may be terrible but she is better written than Lucy, Orohime, and Rukia.


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## BatoKusanagi (Jan 1, 2013)

Decent enough to keep me reading this manga


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## u think u know me (Jan 1, 2013)

all i can to say 

kishi is the good writer


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## Eternity (Jan 1, 2013)

Howling01 said:


> I basically don't care for anything anymore except for Kakashi,can't be a good sign,but maybe it's just me .With a long-running story like Naruto inconsistencies are to be expected,but i feel as if *Kishi dug himself too deep with the whole Tobito thing .*






Really now? That was foreshadowed from the very beginning of part 2, if not even further back. It was the banter and trolling from the Tobito theory haters that made people believe it was a stupid theory. It was not inconsitent, it was not too obvious, but it made enough people belive it to make it exciting. 

Tobito being inconistent is bullshit. Deal with it.


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## Inferno (Jan 1, 2013)

Damn, One Piece has been mentioned 3+ times and still no shitstorm. 

OT: Eh, I'm on the line. He's good enough for me to still enjoy and anticipate Naruto chapters, but he's definitely not as good as he was in Part 1. When I think about the story as a whole (Rikudo shit, prophecy shit, etc.), I get all depressed.


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## Renyou (Jan 1, 2013)

He's not a bad writer, Part 1 proves that much. I just get the feeling he's tired of putting any effort in the plot, because the last 3 arcs or so were horrible.


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

*Kishimoto is the writer of one of the most popular manga of whole time. If he was a bad writer, the manga would not be such known. This is just a fact. People would not read some bullshit. Some may say part 1 is better and I respect that opinion (for me both parts are on the same level, part 1 was a little bit more ninja but in part 2 the fights are better thanks to the Akatsuki) but it's popularity remained the same. Kishi is still writing a manga that millions of people from all ages read. The very most of those like it a lot. This is just the truth.

Is Naruto a perfect manga? No, of course not. It for sure has it flaws, just like every long-running manga has. But still, if I look it overall, this still is (after all those years) still a manga that is very amusing to read. *
_
Just my two cents about Kishimoto's manga Naruto..._
_1. The manga has some very awesome characters. Going from Naruto to Sasuke, going from Jiraiya to Kisame, going from Ino to Hinata and so on and on. Every single one from us have there favorite character(s). And I read this forum for a long time now (I was reading here for years before I became an active member) and the most from here are also really liking that character. Well, if a writer, Kishimoto in this case, can make you like a character so much, how the hell can you say then he is a bad writer? I give an example. The second half from past year, 2012, was all about Naruto and co vs Obito and co. I sometimes read then on Konoha Telegrams some ridicolous 'hate' on Kishi from Sasuke-fans, probably because the chapters lacked Sasuke. I mean, act normal? There are many more popular characters then Sasuke alone, you know. Don't be a hypocrite then... You're favorite character is written by that same Kishimoto.
2. It is very well at the emotional drama-stuff. The chapter were Jiraiya died for example. Hell, I am not at all an emotional type, but the day I read that (and the days after) I felt like a depressed wanker.  Also some other parts in the manga made me feel sad. Haku's and Zabuza's death, I think I don't need to say why. Asuma's death, perfectly handled with team 10 and his last words. Kisame's death, like a true ninja. Neji's death, I just recommand you all to read the chapters with him after his fight with Naruto during the Chuunin exams, look at was he is saying and then look at what he is saying when he dies. That was f*cking genius! (I still don't understand why some people find this death not well handled)
3. The manga has a lot of lolz. It can mix emotional stuff perfectly with hilarious stuff. You had Jiraiya for example, or you have Madara's and Obito's one-liners now. And more!
4. The fights are amazing, someone who don't agree with me on that... I just ignore you further! 
5. The manga is very well drawn. The faces expressions are most of the time excelent. _
*
What I am trying to say is, that for me, Kishi is a very good writer. Yes, he sometimes makes wrong choices, but that goes for all writers from long-running mangas. Naruto still is, however I follow a lot (!) other mangas (the most Seinen), my most favorite manga while I admit it is not the very best. I am still looking forward to each next chapter and I am still reading them with pleasure. So actually Kishimoto did me a big favour writing this. And I don't care people call me a fanboy now. Why? Because I am. I am a fan and I am male so yes I am a fanboy then.  But I am not a tard, I know this manga has it's flaws. But as long I like reading it, wich I do a lot, I don't care.

And people who tell Kishi never has genius moments... *
->


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## Deleted member 206107 (Jan 1, 2013)

I can't say he's a good writer tho, well maybe he is since I'm still reading the manga...
He sure don't know how to write female characters properly.


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

Unbroken said:


> I can't say he's a good writer tho, well maybe he is since I'm still reading the manga...
> He sure don't know how to write female characters properly.



*He knows how to draw them (Hinata, Ino, Mei, Tsunade, ... are just hot, simple as that), that's the most important. 

And he has handled Hinata and Ino very well past year! *


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## Cjones (Jan 1, 2013)

His execution is usually just bad, and he's a tell, but don't show kind of writer; however, I think he's decent enough to where he has me still reading it.


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## BeBreezy (Jan 1, 2013)

I don't think he is. I like the story style of both parts and his characterization. He could do better for women, but overall he's fine. If people conplain that they don't like the way he writes and think the story is shit, then drop the manga and keep it moving. No one gives a fuck if you like it or not


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## Dark (Jan 1, 2013)

Inferno said:


> Damn, One Piece has been mentioned 3+ times and still no shitstorm.



I was thinking about the same thing lol


OT: I won't go and say Kishi is a bad writer, the man deserves his credit even though there are some chapters/arcs/things that really made the manga look shit to me at least.

Naruto wasn't the first anime I watched, however it was the one which made me really into the anime/manga. I really enjoyed Part 1. Part 2 wasn't that bad at first, I enjoyed the pein arc, akatuski themes/fights, kage summit/danzo fight however I really don't like the route in which the fourth shinobi war is going, the edo tensai shitted on some of the well build characters, reviving Itachi wasn't a good thing along with the Izanami/Izanagi thing. I don't really like how Tobi turned out to be Obito no matter how Kishi tries to make it look legit. 

Oh and Orochimaru being revived as simple as fuck? After Itachi killed himself to make his brother's energy run out and get rid of Oro's chakra for good and then be revived and by who? 

In addition, how he ignored developing the side characters and focused on Sasuke (even more than Naruto in part 2) and Naruto. 

I am not dropping the manga, because I want to see how it ends and maybe Kishi makes up for how BS the fourth shinobi war is going. Oh and Madara is badass, lets hope Kishi doesn't kill him and Obito with TNJ or some bullshit.


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 1, 2013)

Darkien said:


> I was thinking about the same thing lol
> 
> 
> OT: I won't go and say Kishi is a bad writer, the man deserves his credit even though there are some chapters/arcs/things that really made the manga look shit to me at least.
> ...


Itachi is very reason why this war arc is horrible. 

Him and his asspulls.


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## Shivers (Jan 1, 2013)

Naruto in part 1 was a skilled execution of shonen tropes. It was comfortable with being constrained by its genre and content to rehash typical storylines, character types, etc. in a passably original setting. It was nothing I hadn't seen before, but it was coherent, focused, and when it aspired to exploring friendship, resolve, honour, etc. it generally succeeded.

Part II has tried to explore higher themes far more than Part I. And it has, for my money, failed miserably, because Kishimoto isn't intellectually equipped to say anything new - or even present things already said in older, better manga in original ways. It tries, sure, but only succeeds in boring me, or making me cringe. And as far as the world-building which I appreciated in Part I goes - the constant unveiling of new and more bombastic jutsus, more earth-shakingly powerful tailed beasts, secrets within secrets, and so on, has become incredibly stale.

I think Kishi is an average writer who wanted to be a good one, and as a consequence, has turned himself into a hack.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 1, 2013)

Let me put it this way:

Kishimoto is great at conceptualizing elements of a story individually, but when trying to contextualize them with the rest of the story, he tends to fuck it up. Bad.

Kishimoto- like most writers, I think -shines when he keeps his plots brief. Where he suffers is in the long-term, with stories that drag on and develop for years while the ideas he originally conceived have time to rot into something different inside his head.

He has a lot of great ideas, but he's pretty bad when it comes to putting them on paper in any kind of complex progression.


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

Still this storyline is one of the best ever made. Kishi is doing well, for sure, no doubt about that! But a writer a little bit more genius would have made from this an even better manga then it already is, probably a legendary one.


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## SasukeITA (Jan 1, 2013)

He's definitely a good writer, but like everybody he may have made some mistakes.
Some parts like
- the meeting between Kushina and Naruto and what she says she told to baby Naruto
- chapter 590, that is when Sasuke and Itachi part ways
- Asuma's final words

and other moments really got me involved emptionally. Furthermore there are really some epic fights which I enjoy watching sometimes.


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## Shinryu (Jan 1, 2013)

Kishi used up all his imagination on the Uchiha ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)


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## Lezu (Jan 1, 2013)

No, he's most of the times drunk (when he writes mangas).


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## Summers (Jan 1, 2013)

Good enough that I continue to come back week after week without fail.


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

So you find him a good writer when he is drunk, Lezu?


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## Narcissus (Jan 1, 2013)

Yes, ever since part 2 at least. Kishimoto does a poor job handling the majority of his characters, and has a tendency for cringe-worthy dialogue. A lot of the fights in part 2 were also pretty lackluster.

He's not the worst, but he doesn't have to be the worst to be bad.





Miiami said:


> He doesn't even know how to make a Heroine,where's good writing in here? Look at fairy tail,bleach


I stopped there. Bleach is even worse than Naruto.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 1, 2013)

Eternity said:


> He is a great writer IMO. I find it hilarious that so many people speak as if they are expert writers, or that they have the absolute say in what shounen or good writing is "supposed" to look like. Such arrogance.



The words of someone trying to reassure himself. Just as you don't have to be a five-star chef to know when a dish is crap, you don't have to be a writer to note a story's flaws. Not to mention it's a stupid strawman of an argument.



Foster said:


> This.
> 
> I can't judge anything unless the story is completely finished.



That's ridiculous, the story has gone far enough to make some kind of judgment on the writing and character development.



Cjones said:


> His execution is usually just bad, and he's a tell, but don't show kind of writer; however, I think he's decent enough to where he has me still reading it.



Pretty much, and that's among the most glaring faults of his writing. What he puts in the story is something that has to be shown rather than told, and he just is not good at doing that. He can set up a good scenario, and characters with a lot of potential but he falls really short on the execution. I think another glaring fault of his is that he seems to have certain social hangups that make his execution of themes and values in particular fall flat.


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## Lezu (Jan 1, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> So you find him a good writer when he is drunk, Lezu?



Not really.. But you can't blame him ! He's drunk as fuck.


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

> *Following a manga for years + being a huge fan from a character from the same manga + saying that manga writer is not good =*


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## Shivers (Jan 1, 2013)

Forgive me, EliteRamenNinja, but you no longer seem interested in actually offering rebuttals to the well-thought-out critiques of Kishimoto that you claim you want. 

It looks to me like you're mostly interested in following them up by restating how much you like Naruto (in a way I'd tactfully call...simple) and having a go at people who don't like it, but still read it. It's becoming redundant.


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## T-Bag (Jan 1, 2013)

Cjones said:


> His execution is usually just bad, and he's a tell, but don't show kind of writer; however, I think he's decent enough to where he has me still reading it.


exactly my thoughts


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

Shivers, I already said enough arguments in the previous pages, actually. 

And saying the reason why I like this manga is simple is just ridiculous. Most people who complain about some things from this manga are just butthurted because there favorite character lacks in panel time sometimes. *That = rindiculous*!!!!


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## Shivers (Jan 1, 2013)

Yes, I read that post. It boiled down to: 

If you like a single character in the manga, it logically follows that the author is good; Kishimoto's very good at the "emotional drama-stuff"; it's funny; the fights are great, and if you don't think so, you're wrong; and its facial expressions are very well-drawn.

Each to his own, I suppose, but I found them unconvincing.


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## Lezu (Jan 1, 2013)

Haters, u guys hate Naruto so much so why do u even read the manga ?


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

@Shivers: It's on the same level as saying 'I don't like this manga because I hate the character Obito'... 

*Face it, those few haters here who posts 10 bash threads and 100 bash-posts a day on Konoha Telegrams are the first ones who will read the next chapter! *


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## Shivers (Jan 1, 2013)

> It's on the same level as saying 'I don't like this manga because I hate the character Obito'...



I haven't seen anyone in this thread say that. Have I missed something?


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## Ernie (Jan 1, 2013)

Shivers said:


> I haven't seen anyone in this thread say that. Have I missed something?



Read KT some more, read the threads.


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## Csdabest (Jan 1, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> *
> I do not agree with you, but I recommand you to watch the anime then since the side characters over there gets a lot of attention during this war till so far! Just a tip.*



Thats the anime. Its uncannon and does not make kishimoto a good writer. Just the people who are doing the story boards can get credit for that. Kishi just did character creation.


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 1, 2013)

If a shitstorm starts I'm reporting everyone in it. Just a little heads up.


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## Shivers (Jan 1, 2013)

Well, I did specifically say _in this thread_, but if you want to use it as a platform to harangue any and all who express dislike for Naruto, then, well...whatever.


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## Renyou (Jan 1, 2013)

Eternity said:


> Really now? That was foreshadowed from the very beginning of part 2, if not even further back.



He planned it for so long, yet the execution was still a disaster. Obito had no believable reasons to turn against the entire world, so Kishimoto made it be all because of a girl. He's done some of the most despicable things in this manga and went completely against his character because he's butthurt about his unrequited crush dying. Even Sasuke has a better villain background.


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## Deleted member 206107 (Jan 1, 2013)

Renyou said:


> He planned it for so long, yet the execution was still a disaster. Obito had no believable reasons to turn against the entire world, so Kishimoto made it be all because of a girl. He's done some of the most despicable things in this manga and went completely against his character because he's butthurt about his unrequited crush dying. Even Sasuke has a better villain background.



Real talk .


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## Eternity (Jan 1, 2013)

Renyou said:


> He planned it for so long, yet the execution was still a disaster. Obito had no believable reasons to turn against the entire world, so Kishimoto made it be all because of a girl. He's done some of the most despicable things in this manga and went completely against his character because he's butthurt about his unrequited crush dying. Even Sasuke has a better villain background.



Not true. He planned it to perfection. Not every single ninja in the world is going to be a tough, heartless and always strong at heart. Obito was a weakhearted kid, and that showed when he succumbed to Madara after the death of Rin. He was a kid in love, and his best friend, whom he died for, killed the one he loved. Double that with the ramblings of a old man that hated the world so much, even strong willed people would have a problem talking back to him. 

Obito is a great villian, with a great background. That is my view on it at least, and you are free to dissagree as much as you want. 

So no butthurt Obito. More like "I would rather builld my own world, free of war, than accept this hell.", which is exactly what he said, time and time again, more or less.


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## Kaix (Jan 1, 2013)

I agree, but I don't think it's just his characterization. What I find is that he lacks emphasis at certain key points. He leaves moments too subtle and doesn't wrap up these moments. Like the whole Nagato thing would have been received better if he had placed more emphasis on the part where he expresses doubt in his objective, before even meeting Naruto, and then maybe having some reference to that later.

What I think happens with the characterization issue is that he creates characters people like and want to see developed and they expect that to happen because that's how a lot of manga are written; small scale stories that only have as many characters as they need. In an average manga when a character is finished their character arc is wrapped up and they leave, whether by being killed off or leaving the scope of the story. That's fine and dandy, but Kishimoto thinks on a larger scale then that. The style of story telling is awkward to some people because it's world-driven. In world-driven, characters exist because the world, not the story, needs for them to exist. They are then used by the story for the purpose of the narrative, but ultimately their arcs are not important. There is no need to ever wrap up Tenten's life because she isn't primarily a character of the story, she is a character of the world. In other words Tenten is not important enough to Naruto(the focus of the story) to receive any development. Her main role is to fill out the world, because without her, team Gai, whose other three members are important to the story, doesn't make sense.

Personally I prefer this style of story telling as it creates a larger world than character driven stories and it seems all the more realistic. The reason it appears awkward to us is that we expect character driven stories from manga, because character driven stories are a staple of Japan. The oldest stories from Japan involve tons of characters whose only important is to the character, to the point that they aren't even given names. China has a more world driven background, but ultimately in modern times it is the west that emphasize story driven narrative. This can be seen in the games Final Fantasy and Elder Scrolls. Most final fantasy games, particularly everything before 12, are character driven, though not always one character. Elder scrolls games are world driven because no matter what you do or where you are the world is supposed to exist without you. So when we look to Japan we are subconsciously looking for a character driven narrative, even a Story driven one, but not a world driven one and that is a problem that some have, though they don't recognize it.

Also some people are all like "my favorite character never gets any screen time so this manga sucks!" which is totally wrong to expect.


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 1, 2013)

Kaix said:


> I agree, but I don't think it's just his characterization. What I find is that he lacks emphasis at certain key points. He leaves moments too subtle and doesn't wrap up these moments. Like the whole Nagato thing would have been received better if he had placed more emphasis on the part where he expresses doubt in his objective, before even meeting Naruto, and then maybe having some reference to that later.
> 
> What I think happens with the characterization issue is that he creates characters people like and want to see developed and they expect that to happen because that's how a lot of manga are written; small scale stories that only have as many characters as they need. In an average manga when a character is finished their character arc is wrapped up and they leave, whether by being killed off or leaving the scope of the story. That's fine and dandy, but Kishimoto thinks on a larger scale then that. The style of story telling is awkward to some people because it's world-driven. In world-driven, characters exist because the world, not the story, needs for them to exist. They are then used by the story for the purpose of the narrative, but ultimately their arcs are not important. There is no need to ever wrap up Tenten's life because she isn't primarily a character of the story, she is a character of the world. In other words Tenten is not important enough to Naruto(the focus of the story) to receive any development. Her main role is to fill out the world, because without her, team Gai, whose other three members are important to the story, doesn't make sense.
> 
> ...


This is the best post in the thread. You summed up my thoughts exactly.


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## Eternity (Jan 1, 2013)

Kaix said:


> I agree, but I don't think it's just his characterization. What I find is that he lacks emphasis at certain key points. He leaves moments too subtle and doesn't wrap up these moments. Like the whole Nagato thing would have been received better if he had placed more emphasis on the part where he expresses doubt in his objective, before even meeting Naruto, and then maybe having some reference to that later.
> 
> What I think happens with the characterization issue is that he creates characters people like and want to see developed and they expect that to happen because that's how a lot of manga are written; small scale stories that only have as many characters as they need. In an average manga when a character is finished their character arc is wrapped up and they leave, whether by being killed off or leaving the scope of the story. That's fine and dandy, but Kishimoto thinks on a larger scale then that. The style of story telling is awkward to some people because it's world-driven. In world-driven, characters exist because the world, not the story, needs for them to exist. They are then used by the story for the purpose of the narrative, but ultimately their arcs are not important. There is no need to ever wrap up Tenten's life because she isn't primarily a character of the story, she is a character of the world. In other words Tenten is not important enough to Naruto(the focus of the story) to receive any development. Her main role is to fill out the world, because without her, team Gai, whose other three members are important to the story, doesn't make sense.
> 
> ...



+rep

The world driven vs characther/story driven stuff is one of those things you know, but you don't really recognize until somone points it out. 

And that might be why I like Naruto so much, as I tend to love the world more then the story at times 

Like Elder Scrolls (in games) or LotR (in movies/books).


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## xShotDeadGorgeous (Jan 1, 2013)

I don't see how Part 2 is what we can trend as "sh*t" at all . Okay , let's think about it . What are some *BIG* points we can actually as a majority of the forum consider crap ?

1) Obito/Madara Reveal

1 very overall huge plot revelant point . Lol . Okay ? I liked the whole reveal thing . It was trolling without being (how do I put this) . . . overly . . . funny/annoying . It was a pleasing plot twist imo .

Some might say the edo's were crap . Think about it like this: What about Sasuke's dilema at that point in the story ? Yeah . He has pretty much decided on revenge . BUT Itachi was there not only for his own closure but to finish the whole brothberly-relationship-foundation and help Sasuke decide what he was gonna do . They were villains who we all knew were gonna die again , not some of the Rookie 9 we wanted to stay dead .

Kishi's an amazing writer . Some of yall just don't like the way the story went . Doesn't make him a "bad" writer .


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## Santeira (Jan 1, 2013)

I like Naruto the manga for what it_ could have been_.

I think it's clear what I think of Kishi's writing skills.


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## Butō Rengoob (Jan 1, 2013)

Considering part 1 was absolutely amazing Kishi must have it in him to be good but he's let the quality drop off over time. At his best he's fantastic, at his worst he's average.


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## DarkTorrent (Jan 1, 2013)

Wait what? Kishi recently switched editors? So dat editor who created Sauce and Sakura is gone?


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## puma21 (Jan 1, 2013)

He's definitely a good writed. But comparing him to other people on the same level he really isn't good enough.


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## gabzilla (Jan 1, 2013)

Santeira said:


> I like Naruto the manga for what it_ could have been_.
> 
> I think it's clear what I think of Kishi's writing skills.



Pretty much.

Oh and the Tobito thing was foreshadowed ages ago, but the execution was a disaster.


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## Louis-954 (Jan 1, 2013)

By Shounen standards? No, he is just fine. Oda and Togashi > Kishi though.


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## insane111 (Jan 1, 2013)

His main issue is that he's way too predictable, and often spoils things that are meant to be shocking before they even happen.


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## Epyon (Jan 1, 2013)

xShotDeadGorgeous said:


> I don't see how Part 2 is what we can trend as "sh*t" at all . Okay , let's think about it . What are some *BIG* points we can actually as a majority of the forum consider crap ?
> 
> 1) Obito/Madara Reveal
> 
> ...



I'll right. I'll bite. What do I consider crap. How about the arc of Part 2 with the new Sasuke who was obsessed with Naruto's penis? That was pretty damn bad. Not amazing writing at all if you ask me.

And yeah. The edos were crap. The fact that we all know they'd have zero relevance save for the Uchihas and not manage to kill a single named character doesn't change that even still, they sucked. Asuma's fight was crap. Really, he's gonna stand there and wait right in front of Chouji's fist throughout the chapter. That's all he's gonna do? BOTH times Chouji hesitates? Deidara and Sasori's getting easily punked by Sai and Kankuro sucked too. I don't care that Sasori's didn't have his arsenal. Yeah, he'd have been stronger if he had his Third Kazekage puppet. You know what other fight he didn't have his Third Kazekage puppet for? When he killed the Third (and strongest) Kazekage. He didn't have the hundreds humanpuppets he accumalated over the years in that fight either. And willing humans on strings made perfectly good puppet substitutes when fighting against _him_. There's no excuse. Chiyo, Kimimaro didn't even get a fight. Hanzo fight was good, but coming from the guy Jiraiya considered undefeatable, not nearly good enough. Zabuza and Haku's fight sucked worst of all. They BOTH went out almost exactly like when they died the first time and did little beyond that. And then there's Itachi.

Now for why this sucks I'll go back a sec. Sasuke vs Itachi is the fight that has been hyped up since chapter 4. After Naruto becoming Hokage and dealing with the Kyuubi, there is no milestone in this story more important. 

And Sasuke failed in more ways then anyone could have thought possible. After all that talk about Sasuke's eyes having greater potential then Itachi's, Sasuke faced an Itachi that was nearly entirely blind (and completely blind toward the end), dying of ninja AIDS, having implanted part of his chakra in Naruto and still lost. After Sasuke had given up, Itachi just waited a while for usage of Susano'o to drain him, touch Sasuke on the forehead implanting the rest of his chakra. And then die. After using Amaterasu one last time to kill Orochimaru again. He totally had that in him.

Also as it turns out Itachi was never even remotely trying to harm Sasuke at any point during the fight and was faking any kind of weakness he may have seemed to have. 
So Sasuke couldn't match Itachi when he was alive. After he was dead however, he gained Mangekyo Sharingan and went on face even greater foes like the most powerful, in control and skilled Jinchuuriki, the Kages and a Naruto that defeated the Akatsuki leader himself. 

And then this war came around. Edo Itachi first shows that unlike Sasuke, he can totally matter the most in a fight between Nagato, Naruto and Bee and then teamed up with Sasuke (who for some reason has completely forgotten he had gone insane with the dark side last arc) and shows in life and death, he is and always will be vastly superior to Sasuke, even if Sasuke has EMS and he merely has MS. So in terms of supposed closure of their brotherly relationship? No. Itachi himself has acknowledge he exists as an obstactle for Sasuke to overcome. It stopped being believable that Sasuke has the talent match, much less overcome his brother a long time ago. 

The fight itself, off course sucked most of all. Kabuto's backstory in no way matches what Sarutobi originally said about where he came from, or really seems to jive with how the whole Sasori connection was originally revealed. 

Izamini's explanation makes NO sense. I get what Kishimoto was trying to do but the thing is. You have TWO eyes. With Izagini you get TWO tries and then you are done with Sharingan forever and without using Hashirama's cells to extend their use like Danzo, it lasts you less then a minute each. 

But SOMEHOW, within the Uchiha clan an entire society of Izagini users had come to be that had grown arrogant from their first couple of seconds and had great discussions and arguments about how they were gonna use their second one and were threatening each other with using their second use to counteract the change someone else was gonna use Izagini to bring about. So the Uchiha Clan devised Izamini that would trap someone who uses Izagini to change their destiny in their tracks until such time that they have learned their lesson and accepted fate. 

But since in Kabuto's case the attck with the sword when Itachi said was when he started using Izamini actually happened, Sasuke can remember what he is talking about after all so the fight in the real world went on for while after that but he got trapped in the actual Genjutsu world of Izamini later. So what the Izagini user initially DOES in the real world still happens. So he still loses his Sharingan. And if he is one of "grown arrogant with Izagini use" Uchihas Itachi was talking about now used up both eyes and would've had to give up this BS even if some other Uchiha with Izamini wasn't charged with stalking him the entire time. 

So that's Izamini. Kishimoto doesn't always think things through but this made so little sense, it boggles the mind. Maybe Kishimoto envisioned the original Uchihas to naturally have Sharinarms like Danzo, but if that's the case he failed to mention that tiny detail.


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## ZeroWolf123 (Jan 1, 2013)

He has has bad moments cough obitoand yea obviously Part 1 was much better than part 2. But doing Naruto for so long it's expected to have some faults.

Kishi isn't a bad writer but at the same time he isn't an amazingly great one


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## 8 (Jan 1, 2013)

Eternity said:


> The world driven vs characther/story driven stuff is one of those things you know, but you don't really recognize until somone points it out.


about that. this story is too plot driven, to the point it ignore character. even the most important characters have to bend for the sake of the plot.

i get the impression kishi first designs a plot. then FORCE the characters into that plot, without even considering the story from the point of view of the characters. on top of that most of the plot is designed while the story is already going on. as resulty we get characters contradicting themselves, they come up with weird decisions, they get weird motivations.

to me its very hard to impossible to relate to these characters:
- naruto's sasuke obsession gets too weird. his "friendship" with sasuke isn't very believable. the child of destiny plot came out of nowhere and arguably contradicts his character. his messiah complex to save the world from hatred and bring world peace is hard to relate to.
- sasuke runs around with no direction. keeps changing his mind. makes forced and weird decisions. he wants to kill every single last innocent konoha citizen?
- sakura wants to get into sasuke's pants. the guy who ignored her, betrayed her and her village, tried to kill her.

our current main villains:
- obito. because you let rin die? 
- madara is very proud, and enjoys conflicts. moon eye plan doesn't seem to fit his character. he's is a buthurt looser and want a world with only winners? i guess?

===
that would be my main issue with kishi's writing. the characters are too alien. i can't relate to them, and therefore i can't cheer for them.

an other big issue is the tell but don't show. for example i am supposed to believe the k11 are naruto's best friends. but they don't hang out. they never get see each other. nice friends. i guess.

or the empty promises. sakura is a genjutsu type? why the hell tell us sakura is a genjutsu type if you never intend to let her do any genjutsu?


----------



## Let'sFightingLove (Jan 1, 2013)

good big picture at expense of details. answer would vary based on whether we're talking about the whole or it's individual parts. you might ask doesn't the whole equal all of it's components; that's true, but you get a multiplier like stepmania


----------



## Plague (Jan 1, 2013)

Despite the good things that happened here and there....I hate to say it, but to me, Kishi is like, one panel away from bad writing. 

One Panel. 

He could make things go so wrong, so fast if he wanted. As it stands right now, I'm okay with it and like the way things have been turning out. But I still think he's a bit of a wild card, and not as predictable anymore.


----------



## Eternity (Jan 1, 2013)

8 said:


> about that. this story is too plot driven, to the point it ignore character. even the most important characters have to bend for the sake of the plot.
> 
> i get the impression kishi first designs a plot. then FORCE the characters into that plot, without even considering the story from the point of view of the characters. on top of that most of the plot is designed while the story is already going on. as resulty we get characters contradicting themselves, they come up with weird decisions, they get weird motivations.
> 
> ...




I relate to them all the time. I am re-reading part 2 now, and I teard up again when Asuma died, and even more when Shikamaru told the mrs. (among many other things ofc).

And they hang out all the time.. rereading part 2, I see them hang out all the time. It's only now int he great ninja war they don't hang out. Before it al begun, there have been plenty of manga bonding moments. Both plot based and misc.

And having a world driven manga, there is bound to be details that doesn't get built on. Just because Sakura is a genjutsu type originally, doesn't mean she HAVE TO use genjutsu. Her amazing chakra control was used for healing jutsus and her amazing strength instead, nothing wrong with that.

What you percieved as a "promise" was nothing more then an observation from one of the characters. Most likely to show the audience that shehad great charkra control.

PS: To everyone else that comes with these "reasons" for calling Kishi a bad writer, this is mearly something you didn't like about his writing, and you label it bad writing. It's not bad, it's just something you didn't like. Deal with it... Or deny it. Your choice.


----------



## Raiden (Jan 1, 2013)

There definitely should have been a poll .


----------



## Hossaim (Jan 1, 2013)

I don't know if I would call him a bad writer.

Kishimoto undoubtedly created one of the best universes in fiction.

His main failure was the fact that he absolutely refused to ever let the good guys loose, even a little.

The worst he did was kill Jiraiya, but apart from that it's been nothing but roses and skipping with Naruto shouting OMFG IM GUNNA BE DA HOKAGE WITH LUUUV at all his problems and it's fucking annoying.

Another failure was Nagato, that TNJ was just plain fucking stupid.

Plus he made the main village evil with all that business with Uchiha (Konoha is essentially a land of racist murderers). 

Yeah he's fucked up big, but his villains were all really good. 

I think he set expectations way to high at the start of the war, it hasen't been a war, just a few skrimishes with Narujesus running around saving everyone, which has been cringe worthy.

Kishi should just kill Naruto and the whole series will be a billion times better. 

But he won't because he is a coward.


----------



## Eternity (Jan 1, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> I don't know if I would call him a bad writer.
> 
> Kishimoto undoubtedly created one of the* best universes in fiction*.
> 
> ...



Now that might be a bit much, don't you think. I can think of more then a few universes that is bigger, more versatile, more original, and overall much better. Don't get me wrong, I live the Narutoverse, but it is far from being best. 


Also, the bad guys have had the biggest advantage for more then 100 chapters now, and 99.99% of all fiction written by someone else then depressed people end with the good guys winning, so that would not be a good reason for calling him a bad writer.


----------



## Plague (Jan 1, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> I don't know if I would call him a bad writer.
> 
> Kishimoto undoubtedly created one of the best universes in fiction.
> 
> ...




I disagree. I think killing off Naruto would be one of the worst moves he ever did. It'd make the entire adventure pretty much for nothing.


----------



## Hossaim (Jan 1, 2013)

Eternity said:


> Now that might be a bit much, don't you think. I can think of more then a few universes that is bigger, more versatile, more original, and overall much better. Don't get me wrong, I live the Narutoverse, but it is far from being best.
> 
> 
> Also, the bad guys have had the biggest advantage for more then 100 chapters now, and 99.99% of all fiction written by someone else then depressed people end with the good guys winning, so that would not be a good reason for calling him a bad writer.



Yeah but in most of thoese the good guys aren't annoyign assholes I want to smash in the face with a rock every time they open their mouth.

Yeah Kakashi, Shikamaru, and Minato are all pretty good chacters, but they are in a minority on the good guys.

Meanwhile there is yet to be a bad villain (apart from Nagato at the very end. And Obito.).

I don't think the person who wrote Itachi and Sasuke and the akatski could be a bad writer, but the person who wrote Narujesus and the extermination of the aktaski is. 

You say the bad guys have the upper hand but for 100+ chapters in A FUCKING WAR nobody was dying, and we all know in the end Naruto will go jesus mode and save everyone and yadadadadadada and it takes the suspense away.


----------



## Hossaim (Jan 1, 2013)

Plague said:


> I disagree. I think killing off Naruto would be one of the worst moves he ever did. It'd make the entire adventure pretty much for nothing.



Then at least rip out his vocal chords becuase if he dismisses on more argument against his ideals with "I'm gonna be the hokage" I'm going to break the fourth wall and kill him myself.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Jan 1, 2013)

Kishimoto isn't a bad writer, its just that most of you are bad fans who criticize shit too much as if you all have master degrees in writing.


----------



## Eternity (Jan 1, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> Yeah but in most of thoese the good guys aren't annoyign assholes I want to smash in the face with a rock every time they open their mouth.
> 
> Yeah Kakashi, Shikamaru, and Minato are all pretty good chacters, but they are in a minority on the good guys.
> 
> ...



Sure people died. Just nobody important. Until now.


----------



## Hossaim (Jan 1, 2013)

Eternity said:


> Sure people died. Just nobody important. Until now.



Oh useless fodder that nobody gives a fuck about died.

Yeah the recent deaths have been pleasing but it seems a little too late.


----------



## Eternity (Jan 1, 2013)

Pathos Grim said:


> Kishimoto isn't a bad writer, its just that most of you are bad fans who criticize shit too much as if you all have master degrees in writing.


 

THANK YOU! 

Narrisicm and arrogance at it's best.


----------



## Hossaim (Jan 1, 2013)

Eternity said:


> THANK YOU!
> 
> Narrisicm and arrogance at it's best.



I don't need to have a degree in music to tell when someone is a bad singer.

I don't need to program games to tell a game im playing is shit.

Such idiocy.


----------



## Gino (Jan 1, 2013)

Yep

Part one is where it's at the best person in part two is deva pain a dead character lol so shit hit the fan in part 2.



Pathos Grim said:


> Kishimoto isn't a bad writer, its just that most of you are bad fans who criticize shit too much as if you all have master degrees in writing.


Shut yo ass up.


----------



## Burke (Jan 1, 2013)

heh, hossaim saying nobody died in the war heh.


----------



## Fourangers (Jan 1, 2013)

Is Kishi a bad writer? 

Search inside your heart and you will know. 

the answer is yes. dem plot holes


----------



## Hossaim (Jan 1, 2013)

St. Burke said:


> heh, hossaim saying nobody died in the war heh.



I said nobody died for 100+ chapters.

Yeah some k11 dads weve seen twice or three times before died and Neji recently, but as I said it seems a little too late.


----------



## Eternity (Jan 1, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> Oh useless fodder that nobody gives a fuck about died.
> 
> Yeah the recent deaths have been pleasing but it seems a little too late.


 
First you say nobody died, then nobody important. Which one is it?


----------



## Hossaim (Jan 1, 2013)

Eternity said:


> First you say nobody died, then nobody important. Which one is it?



Fodder deaths aren't real deaths imo.


----------



## Gino (Jan 1, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> Fodder deaths aren't real deaths imo.


Neji ain't fodder lil muthafuca.


----------



## Renyou (Jan 1, 2013)

Pathos Grim said:


> Kishimoto isn't a bad writer, its just that most of you are bad fans who criticize shit too much as if you all have master degrees in writing.



By that logic, none of us is qualified to call it good writing either.


----------



## ovanz (Jan 1, 2013)

Kishimoto isn't a good or bad writer. He is a good salesman, he sells big this thing.


----------



## Burke (Jan 1, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> I said nobody died for 100+ chapters.
> 
> Yeah some k11 dads weve seen twice or three times before died and Neji recently, but as I said it seems a little too late.



its funny because at this point well over half of the entire population of ninja in the world that are above genin level are dead, but because a very small number of these ninja (named characters) are not yet dead, you are dissapointed. oh ho ehe he. its funny. im laughing at you.


----------



## Renyou (Jan 1, 2013)

St. Burke said:


> its funny because at this point well over half of the entire population of ninja in the world that are above genin level are dead, but because a very small number of these ninja (named characters) are not yet dead, you are dissapointed. oh ho ehe he. its funny. im laughing at you.



1 named character is worth 10000 small fries. This is especially true in Shonen.


----------



## Hossaim (Jan 1, 2013)

St. Burke said:


> its funny because at this point well over half of the entire population of ninja in the world that are above genin level are dead, but because a very small number of these ninja (named characters) are not yet dead, you are dissapointed. oh ho ehe he. its funny. im laughing at you.



Half the ninja world dying in 3 battles.

We were never made to care about any of these deaths, but it seems unrealistic that 40,000/80,000 fodder are dead but 5/50-60 named ninja are dead.


----------



## Eternity (Jan 1, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> I don't need to have a degree in music to tell when someone is a bad singer.
> 
> I don't need to program games to tell a game im playing is shit.
> 
> Such idiocy.



You need to be able to hear tones (there exist people that are tone deaf). And music is a bad parallell, as we are built to like curtain tones over others. Even still, someone we might think of as a bas singer might be loved in the middle east/russia/etc. (Something I have seen personally with the European Song Contest). So no, you don't have to be a singer, but your idea of bad singer might be anothers perfect singer.

We learn through others what games are "good" or "bad", and our taste for games changes with the years as well. There are no "good games", only games you like, or those you don't. 

Same goes for writing. We learn what is right, then we follow that. English grammar, sentence building, etc, etc. All this is a learned skill that other people tell you about. It's all about perception.


tl;dr - You are wrong.


----------



## Burke (Jan 1, 2013)

Renyou said:


> 1 named character is worth 10000 small fries. This is especially true in Shonen.



i dont think you would agree with what you just said
100000 total forces, 60000~ deaths
holy shit man 6 named characters died
thats pretty fucking important


----------



## Renyou (Jan 1, 2013)

St. Burke said:


> i dont think you would agree with what you just said
> 100000 total forces, 60000~ deaths
> holy shit man 6 named characters died
> thats pretty fucking important



No, I agree. That's 6 named characters' worth on the good guys' side, against an army of edos (named characters) on the bad guys' side. Quite unbalanced, huh?


----------



## Burke (Jan 1, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> Half the ninja world dying in 3 battles.
> 
> We were never made to care about any of these deaths, but it seems unrealistic that 40,000/80,000 fodder are dead but 5/50-60 named ninja are dead.


----------



## Eternity (Jan 1, 2013)

Renyou said:


> No, I agree. That's 6 named characters' worth on the good guys' side, against an army of edos (named characters) on the bad guys' side. Quite unbalanced, huh?



Dead people controlled by one person and an army of plants. What did you think would happen? The good guys 99% or something. THe bad guys are pretty much Sasuke, Oro, Obito and Madara at this point. Not counting the plant.


----------



## Hossaim (Jan 1, 2013)

Eternity said:


> You need to be able to hear tones (there exist people that are tone deaf). And music is a bad parallell, as we are built to like curtain tones over others. Even still, someone we might think of as a bas singer might be loved in the middle east/russia/etc. (Something I have seen personally with the European Song Contest). So no, you don't have to be a singer, but your idea of bad singer might be anothers perfect singer.
> 
> We learn through others what games are "good" or "bad", and our taste for games changes with the years as well. There are no "good games", only games you like, or those you don't.
> 
> ...


But then without that you can't call writing good either, since you don't have a PHD in English. 

Someone giving up thier ideas that they have held cult like for 20 years and then killing themselves over a book is bad writing.


----------



## Renyou (Jan 1, 2013)

That's true for the protagonists, but secondary characters should still be able to be killed off with no problems.



Eternity said:


> Dead people controlled by one person and an  army of plants. What did you think would happen? The good guys 99% or  something. THe bad guys are pretty much Sasuke, Oro, Obito and Madara at  this point. Not counting the plant.



That's the thing, it shouldn't have been called a war. From the beginning, it was those four against the rest. Kishimoto could have just skipped straight to the main battles and it would have made no difference.


----------



## Burke (Jan 1, 2013)

Renyou said:


> No, I agree. That's 6 named characters' worth on the good guys' side, against an army of edos (named characters) on the bad guys' side. Quite unbalanced, huh?



actually thats 6 named characters for the 60000 dead ninja
4 more named characters for the ninja still alive
and then the actual allied named characters which numbers to, what, 50?
and since you seem to only care for things that you are able to see and that have names, the edo forces amount to about that same number?
this is counting quantity only



Renyou said:


> That's true for the protagonists, but secondary characters should still be able to be killed off with no problems.



well then you have to wonder what purpose that has to the story besides the fact that you just want to see named deaths


----------



## Eternity (Jan 1, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> But then without that you can't call writing good either, since you don't have a PHD in English.
> 
> Someone giving up thier ideas that they have held cult like for 20 years and then killing themselves over a book is bad writing.



Exactly true. That's what I am saying. There is no such thing as truly good or bad writing. It's all our perception. We like it or we don't.. I mean I already said this, did you even read it? 

And no, that's not bad writing, it's different. It may not be a realistic story for someone that lives a normal life, but it may be comepletely amazing for a crazy serial killer with metal disabillity. 


Bottom line, calling it  bad writing it only an opinion of yours. Mine is that is is great writing. Chavy?


----------



## Punished Pathos (Jan 1, 2013)

Try and move to japan and live in a cramped, narrow apartment.
Prove me wrong, create a manga and have it sell over millions of copies. 
Get Shounen Jump to back it, and have guys turn your manga into an anime series. Pick up royalty checks from the merchandise and have ur creation span a long series of Videogames that sell millions on every gaming system.
Yeah, and gain a bunch of fans who all think they can out write you and chew you out by calling u a bad writer. 

LOL Kishimoto is a bad writer?!

I didn't know a bad writer can earn the top 3 spot of best selling mangas in Japan 

I didn't realize that writing a bad series can lead to milking in millions of yen


----------



## Burke (Jan 1, 2013)

Pathos Grim said:


> Try and move to japan and live in a cramped, narrow apartment.
> Prove me wrong, create a manga and have it sell over millions of copies.
> Get Shounen Jump to back it, and have guys turn your manga into an anime series.
> Yeah, and gain a bunch of fans who all think they can out write you and chew you out by calling u a bad writer.



AND ONLY THEN WILL YOU KNOW PAIN


----------



## Hossaim (Jan 1, 2013)

Pathos Grim said:


> Try and move to japan and live in a cramped, narrow apartment.
> Prove me wrong, create a manga and have it sell over millions of copies.
> Get Shounen Jump to back it, and have guys turn your manga into an anime series.
> Yeah, and gain a bunch of fans who all think they can out write you and chew you out by calling u a bad writer.



Piss smells better than shit.

Does that make piss smell good?

Being able to write better than me does not make you a good writer.

Also, just because you are sucessfull does not make you good.

Hitler was pretty sucessfull.


----------



## Eternity (Jan 1, 2013)

Renyou said:


> That's true for the protagonists, but secondary characters should still be able to be killed off with no problems.
> 
> 
> 
> *That's the thing, it shouldn't have been called a war. From the beginning, it was those four against the rest. Kishimoto could have just skipped straight to the main battles and it would have made no difference.*




Dude, this is a story, not a fight between characters for your amusement.  Having the entir named good guys just go onto a battlefield and attack the four main antagonists...THAT would be bad writing.


----------



## Eternity (Jan 1, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> Piss smells better than shit.
> 
> Does that make piss smell good?
> 
> ...


----------



## Ubereem (Jan 1, 2013)

He is not a bad writer. He just plain fucked up in the Pain Arc.


----------



## Punished Pathos (Jan 1, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> Piss smells better than shit.
> 
> Does that make piss smell good?
> 
> ...



Kishimoto should lurk on Narutoforums and see all the shit people post. 
Really, he should take time out of his busy days working on dem chapters to wade through the sea of crappy lines of text to find some more inspiration.
He can't because he doesn't care.
Naruto was designed for kids, yet wannabe college professors read Naruto weekly. I just can't understand using logic and applying it to a manga thats filled with Magical Ninjas and people that can cheat death.
Makes no sense.
Hilter killed millions of innocent people. He was nothing but a racist.
Don't defend that, you wouldn't feel so hot if some middle aged man with an STD killed ur family and stacked their corpses up like a barrel of dead fish solely due to their racial, religious background. 
/Thread


----------



## Renyou (Jan 1, 2013)

St. Burke said:


> well then you have to wonder what purpose that has to the story besides the fact that you just want to see named deaths





Eternity said:


> Dude, this is a story, not a fight between characters for your amusement.   Having the entir named good guys just go onto a battlefield and attack  the four main antagonists...THAT would be bad writing.



Don't misunderstand me. Of course I care about the plot, I don't want to see named characters die for the heck of it, I want a sense of danger, of hopelessness. That's kind of what you expect in a war.

We're only getting this now, and it's kinda late into the war.


----------



## Hossaim (Jan 1, 2013)

Pathos Grim said:


> Kishimoto should lurk on Narutoforums and see all the shit people post.
> Really, he should take time out of his busy days working on dem chapters to wade through the sea of crappy lines of text to find some more inspiration.
> He can't because he doesn't care.
> Naruto was designed for kids, yet wannabe college professors read Naruto weekly. I just can't understand using logic and applying it to a manga thats filled with Magical Ninjas and people that can cheat death.
> ...



You seem to be under the impression I am pro hitler.

I'm saying that popularity doesn't equal good.

Naruto is a manga for 13-18, I am 14 right in that group.

I find it childish for Narujesus to run around saving everyone.

You say /thread because your argument is so feeble you are afraid you can't rebut me.

Kishi cares what people think of his manga, his job depends on what people think of it.

I have a right to critic it, and I shall exercise that right as I see fit.


----------



## Milliardo (Jan 2, 2013)

this question sure gets asked a lot... being popular doesn't make it good as twilight is proof to that.. kishi is milking it off little kids in japan that is true.. 

i think the number of complaints are proof the quality of the manga has dropped. especially since it is a naruto forum..


----------



## Empathy (Jan 2, 2013)

A bad writer wouldn't have the third highest selling manga in the world currently. Not to say that sales equals quality, but if it were objectively bad, it wouldn't have done as well as it has for as long as it has. I know there's some people who are only reading now to see how it concludes and many even liken reading it to watching a train wreck (it's bad, but so bad that you have to see how bad it is), but not everyone can be following it for those purposes. There have to be _some_ people who genuinely enjoy Naruto. A good writer doesn't just suddenly get bad and loose writing skills and it's evident from implications earlier in the story that this is where the author ultimately intended this manga to be. 

I personally no longer enjoy Naruto as a story, but I would defend it's quality long after many had given up on it (everything preceding the war I liked). Most at least enjoyed Naruto at some point, be it only Part I or some point in Part II. Kishimoto still puts lots of work into details and I can appreciate that. Many who don't enjoy the story still have favorite characters or battles they like. Naruto has been a gateway to introduce many to reading manga. Kishimoto isn't the best writer and he certainly doesn't have the best manga, but he isn't bad.


----------



## Hitomi (Jan 2, 2013)

> Is Kishimoto A Bad Writer?



hmm.. lets see... he wrote and drew a manga that sold millions of volumes from 1999, and you're still reading it, what does this tell you? never mind don't answer it since you're not a qualified critic and didn't write a manga that sold nonstop for 13 years.


----------



## Yakkai (Jan 2, 2013)

Snow Princess said:


> hmm.. lets see... he wrote and drew a manga that sold millions of volumes from 1999, and you're still reading it, what does this tell you? never mind don't answer it since you're not a qualified critic and didn't write a manga that sold nonstop for 13 years.



50 Shades of Gray says hello.

So does Ke$ha.

High sales volume does not equal good.


----------



## Ernie (Jan 2, 2013)

Eternity said:


> Not true. He planned it to perfection. Not every single ninja in the world is going to be a tough, heartless and always strong at heart. Obito was a weakhearted kid, and that showed when he succumbed to Madara after the death of Rin. He was a kid in love, and his best friend, whom he died for, killed the one he loved. Double that with the ramblings of a old man that hated the world so much, even strong willed people would have a problem talking back to him.
> 
> Obito is a great villian, with a great background. That is my view on it at least, and you are free to dissagree as much as you want.
> 
> So no butthurt Obito. More like "I would rather builld my own world, free of war, than accept this hell.", which is exactly what he said, time and time again, more or less.



Pretty much this!


----------



## Ernie (Jan 2, 2013)

The most rindiculous thing is that whatever Kishi will do, some people here in KT will always complain. Always. 

For example: "Kishi does not have the balls to kill named characters" and after Shikaku and co and Neji died it was like "too fast, Kishi you drunk?" haha, KT is entertaining but for sure also rindiculous!

PS: I am happy to see in this thread there are still serious people in Konoha Telegrams, there is hope!


----------



## Owl (Jan 2, 2013)

I could write a better plot; that's how bad he is.


----------



## Hossaim (Jan 2, 2013)

Owl said:


> I could write a better plot; that's how bad he is.



The why haven't you?


----------



## Ernie (Jan 2, 2013)

Milliardo said:


> i think the number of complaints are proof the quality of the manga has dropped. especially since it is a naruto forum..



Serious? This is Konoha Telegrams, you know. Many people just ignore this section because it is full with ragers and trollers. When you make a positive thread, 'you are not cool' and stuff. This is a very entertaining place, but also a place you can not take serious 99% of the time. 

Go to whatever other famous Naruto forum, you will see the difference. But fact is also that in those forums are also the opposite = many tards.


----------



## Hossaim (Jan 2, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> Serious? This is Konoha Telegrams, you know. Many people just ignore this section because it is full with ragers and trollers. When you make a positive thread, 'you are not cool' and stuff'. This is a very entertaining place, but also a place you can not take serious 99% of the time.
> 
> Go to whatever other famous Naruto forum, you will see the difference. But fact is also that in those forums are also the opposite = many tards.



Making positive threads is fine.

As long as you make them about itachi


----------



## Ernie (Jan 2, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> Making positive threads is fine.
> 
> As long as you make them about itachi



*I like that Itachi is gone* something like that you mean?


----------



## Kaix (Jan 2, 2013)

Normally I don't come back to a thread that I post in so as to not get dragged into the negativity, but then I go into my User CP only to see that I've been negged. This wouldn't be an issue but I didn't even say anything offensive this time, I just stated my opinion, and I notice that this guy had negged me before, so I think maybe I'll see what he has to say, because he didn't leave a comment, but he didn't have the fortitude to offer a dissenting opinion. Nothing to "enlighten" me, nothing to show me that I have offended someone, nothing at all. So here is round two, all of you neg me if you want, I think I'd look good with a red bar in a forum full of haters.



Hossaim said:


> I don't know if I would call him a bad writer.
> 
> Kishimoto undoubtedly created one of the best universes in fiction.
> 
> ...



So, Hossaim, I usually disagree with you, and because I often confuse you with other people with similar uchiha pictures, I skip over most of your posts that I come across, or maybe I decided specifically to skip you, I don't remember. There was someone I skipped for being a troll, forgive me if it wasn't you. 

Now, I like the way you start out here, I get the sense that it's not all hate that you have, the hate of course being the polarizing factor that makes anyone who does like Naruto against you, regardless of whether they agree or not. Rhetoric is a harsh mistress like that. Of course, later you devolve back into your alienating hate which is why I can't agree with you here. What I can agree with is that the good guys do win an abnormal amount of time, but they never win the important battles, they only win enough to survive. I could go further, but I don't think you'd agree with me anyway, so I'll skip to my point.

Stories are not critiqued in the black and white manner that you suggest. There are stories out their where the good guys lose more than they win. There are stories with a middle ground. All of it depends on the themes and motifs. Bad writing is when your material does not fit the theme, when you completely miss the point of your own message, when your language is flat and dull, where your characters are dry and without worth, where you simply cannot capture an audience, no matter how small. That is bad writing. What you are telling us is that in your opinion the good guys should lose more than they have in Naruto and because they haven't it is bad. This is something you don't like about his writing, which is not the same thing as the writing actually being bad. There is a difference, a very fine line dividing the two, and you've crossed it.



Hossaim said:


> I don't need to have a degree in music to tell when someone is a bad singer.
> 
> I don't need to program games to tell a game im playing is shit.
> 
> Such idiocy.



Singing, and games, from a programming perspective, are not even close to the depth that narratives have. Lyrically a song can contain that kind of depth, but have a bad singer, and a technically crappy game can have a great story, but someone with ears or programming knowledge alone could not determine the quality of the song, or the intricacies of a story. It takes study and experience to understand all the references and what is going on in Macbeth, more so than it does to determine that someone can't stay on key, or completely screwed up the physics.

Granted, Kishimoto is no Shakespeare, and he is worlds away from Marlowe. His tale doesn't have the timeless quality of Dickens', or the universal appeal of Clemmons', but it is not bad by any definition. The depth that Naruto contains is not what would be expected in bad writing, not to say it is so grand and deep, but anyone who has spent a night researching Japanese mythology and the religions of Buddhism, Hinduism, and Shintoism would know this. Kishimoto didn't just pull things out of his butt, he thought long and hard, pooling together ideas from his cultural heritage, and others he is familiar with. The cultural barrier obscures this depth, because at first glance a tanuki fighting a fox is nothing to a westerner, nor is Itachi killing Orochimaru important to us, but then you learn about the little tales of tanukis and foxes, and then you read about how Susanoo killed Yamata no Orochi and things start to click. It has contains more than many other good stories have, but it seems that isn't good enough for you. The subtle weaving of culture, the interplay of the themes, the expression drawn into the artwork, none of it is good enough because Konoha didn't stay dead.

I fully respect your opinion that this manga has too many good guys winning. Some people like angsty stories where there is only gray, no good and evil, no black and white and the protagonists take blow after bone shattering blow. That's cool. The problem is that you are confusing your preferential story type, whatever it actually is, for good narrative when the two are not mutually exclusive. If you do not like the type of story Naruto is, then find something else, perhaps even read both if your that bullheaded, but with all due respect have some objectivity in your critique.


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## Stripes (Jan 2, 2013)

As someone who's been out of the manga and tried going back in way too many times, yes.

Kishi, there is just so much I can 'tsk' him on, and I really don't wanna rant so I'mma keep this relatively short. 

For one, he adds way too many characters that need to be kept track of he not only has the Rookie 9 + Gai's team. The hokages, the antagonists, fodder nins and important ones. It's a constant back and forth, and I can see that with the war that it's wishy washy but his focus on characters goes from one spectrum to another and it's annoying. Like Sakura is suppose to be a main character (example) and she hardly plays much role let alone gets a spec of development, if anything he downgrades on her.

I can go into the romance side and how Kishi gets all sexist but it's been heard and said and done with and it's annoying because I agree with that. 

A story that's good for one half and lets you down for the other half is kinda 'hmph'.

All the people who are all about Kishi say his work is great are not being realistic. I'm not saying he's put his story in the toilet but I've been in this manga for 7+ years now I can tell you that his story line is jagged for long period of time it seems like endless stretches of plot meshing with one another and it's hard to decide if it actually ruins the plot as a hole. The direction of the manga is just so unclear.


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## Ernie (Jan 2, 2013)

> Kaix



A long post but it was worth it to read. A rep for you, good sir!


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## Stripes (Jan 2, 2013)

Empathy said:


> A bad writer wouldn't have the third highest selling manga in the world currently. Not to say that sales equals quality, but if it were objectively bad, it wouldn't have done as well as it has for as long as it has. I know there's some people who are only reading now to see how it concludes and many even liken reading it to watching a train wreck (it's bad, but so bad that you have to see how bad it is), but not everyone can be following it for those purposes. There have to be _some_ people who genuinely enjoy Naruto. A good writer doesn't just suddenly get bad and loose writing skills and it's evident from implications earlier in the story that this is where the author ultimately intended this manga to be.
> 
> I personally no longer enjoy Naruto as a story, but I would defend it's quality long after many had given up on it (everything preceding the war I liked). Most at least enjoyed Naruto at some point, be it only Part I or some point in Part II. Kishimoto still puts lots of work into details and I can appreciate that. Many who don't enjoy the story still have favorite characters or battles they like. Naruto has been a gateway to introduce many to reading manga. Kishimoto isn't the best writer and he certainly doesn't have the best manga, but he isn't bad.



Well none of us would really be here if we didn't all like this series at one point or another but the big picture is that it is a good manga. The characters, the universe, and the over all picture is fuckin great but the problem is how he treats those things with his story. I'll just say what everyone else is saying and say that after TS it slowly but steadily became a cluster fuck of too many elements. You had way to many things that needed more explanation and much more back story then first thought. 

This also comes down to, it's very hook worthy. I don't think you can start a series and a few years down the road not wanna know how it ended. Especially if you devoted so much time following it. EVEN if you fell outta the band wagon. 

It was my first series as a manga reader and I'll never forget it or dislike it in that effect. Many won't and wouldn't.


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## Epyon (Jan 2, 2013)

St. Burke said:


> its funny because at this point well over half of the entire population of ninja in the world that are above genin level are dead, but because a very small number of these ninja (named characters) are not yet dead, you are dissapointed. oh ho ehe he. its funny. im laughing at you.



If they start acknowledging that the ninjaworld as they know it is dead and villages like Suna will have to give up being ninjavillages and such (which they were on the brink of doing in Part 1 already), I'll be glad but I'd have to see it to believe it.



Eternity said:


> Dead people controlled by one person and an army of plants. What did you think would happen? The good guys 99% or something. THe bad guys are pretty much Sasuke, Oro, Obito and Madara at this point. Not counting the plant.



Good guys 5% maybe. The fact that the Juubi can kill is nice but as far as the war is concerned; 

THESE guys were the enemy army
Link removed
Link removed

Not a SINGLE ONE OF THEM manages to win a single fight or take single character with a name with them (except Itachi who won two after he switched sides as you do). That's rather disappionting. Maybe that's just me.



Eternity said:


> Dude, this is a story, not a fight between characters for your amusement.  Having the entir named good guys just go onto a battlefield and attack the four main antagonists...THAT would be bad writing.



Oh, well I'm glad SOMEONE is allowed to think something is bad writing at least.


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## Escargon (Jan 2, 2013)

Whats the point in having hidden characters and mysteries when it holds no logic?

What i expects from a reveal: Something that makes sense and is mindfucking as in "holy shit is that him? It makes sense but what the fuck?"

What it turns out to be: "Oh fuck its the most obvious character ever and the story doesnt make sense. Why the fuck do we need a clusterfuck flashback that explains logic but holds no logic?"

What others might expect: "OMFG ITS  A COOL CHARACTER I DONT give a darn AS LONG AS I CAN WANK FOR HIM I WILL NEG EVERYONE TALKING SHIT!"

It was fun discussing theories in the Tobi threads. Too bad we got nothing out of it.
How funny that a Scooby Doo episode is more mindfucking than a manga who kept a character hidden for years.

Kishi is not the only writer who does that. I remember reading a masterpiece manga and the reveal FUCKED IT UP by 100%.

Witnessing such mass destruction makes me think that Kishi is like below him in a way and above him in another.
Even if the Obito reveal is indeed stupid its just a part of the manga. Im still enjoying it sometimes.


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## Yuna (Jan 2, 2013)

Short answer: Yes.
Longer answer: Hell yes.
Longer yet answer: Kishimoto is a hack.


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## Escargon (Jan 2, 2013)

Share your hatred i need to solo Itachi.


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## Ernie (Jan 2, 2013)




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## tupadre97 (Jan 2, 2013)

He's a terrible writer. He has great concepts but fails in their execution horribly.


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## Hossaim (Jan 2, 2013)

Why do I feel this is aimed at me.


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## Ernie (Jan 2, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> Why do I feel this is aimed at me.



Not at you bro, since you gave an opinion with arguments at least. But 95% of the people who say Kishi is not a good writer are full of bullshit/trolling. 



> He's a terrible writer. He has great concepts but fails in their execution horribly.


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## Yuna (Jan 2, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> Not at you bro, since you gave an opinion with arguments at least. But 95% of the people who say Kishi is not a good writer are full of bullshit/trolling.


Just because their *reasoning* is bullshit doesn't mean the statement can't be true or even partially true.

By most standards, Kishimoto is a pretty terrible writer. He can't even get pacing right anymore, most of the time. His attempts to solve plot holes or answer questions just makes new questions arise and punch open new plot holes. Some plot holes he just forgets about. His characters often appear to act OOC because he's so inconsistent. He has no clue how to write female characters and readily admit to it. He repeats himself again and again and again. He treats his readers like 5 yearolds, despite the fact that the majority of his readership is in their teens.

I could go on, but then we'd have to wade into controversial waters.


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## Ernie (Jan 2, 2013)

Narutoverse is one of the most beautiful verses there is. It has many epic characters. It is good at the emotional stuff. And so on and on. Kishimoto is not perfect, but for sure a very good writer still. Else I would not read his manga. I gave up on OP, I gave up on Bleach and on other long-running mangas but not Naruto so for me Kishimoto is a good writer. The end.


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## Mateush (Jan 2, 2013)

No, he's not. Naruto is one of the most popular manga.


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## Jad (Jan 2, 2013)

Good writer when he writes Gai and Lee doing something amazing. Bad writer when he avoids them. Naruto the story is just jack and shit. But he wrote a fantastic awesome character in Gai and Lee~ Give him props for that.


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## Escargon (Jan 2, 2013)

We still have eight gates but seeing how this manga is right now the eight gates will last one panel and will do even less damage than Chiaotzu did on Nappa.


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## Ernie (Jan 2, 2013)

I guess Kishi made too much epic characters since everyone wants and wants and wants more and more and more panel time for there favorite one.


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## Salmacis (Jan 2, 2013)

He has his up and down moments. Among the big three he is probably second place and I generally enjoy the manga. This arc, however, is probably one of my least favorite, but that's probably because of the crappy villains. Hopefully when this Obito and Madara bullshit is done with we can get to something better.


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## TimeMask (Jan 2, 2013)

I think Kishimoto is a good writer but he doesn't give enough spotlight to a lot of female characters.

Characters like Tsunade and Mei do a lot in the story for a side character but Sakura a main character doesn't do enough.

In part 2 its harder to tell if Sakura's the main female character especially in the war were Ino and now Hinata are getting more spotlight.


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## Escargon (Jan 2, 2013)

The funny thing is that i would call Kishi a very good writer if he showed Tsunades boobs.

Guess im the same human as you guys.


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## Ernie (Jan 2, 2013)

Escargon said:


> The funny thing is that i would call Kishi a very good writer if he showed Tsunades boobs.
> 
> Guess im the same human as you guys.



What about Mei, Hinata, Ino and more!


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## Escargon (Jan 2, 2013)

Even Sakura. She had a nice butt in the shippuuden.


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## Ernie (Jan 2, 2013)

Escargon said:


> Even Sakura. She had a nice butt in the shippuuden.



Shizune too. She has small tits but I'll bet they are nice!


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## Kusa (Jan 2, 2013)

Not bad,not really good either.
The whole 'peace theme contradicts with the the theme of part 1.Part 1 was about hard working.Naruto the underdog  becomes strong through hard training.In part 2 we find out that he has super awesome strong parents and that he is the choosen one who will bring peace to the world.It's the opposite of what part 1 used to be.We wouldn't have this problem now if he didn't put all that peace crap in this manga in the first place.

He just tries to put every Idea he has in his head in the manga to make this manga for 'interesting',whether it fits to context of the story or not.

Furthermore,the characters he doesn't find interesting enough don't get their moments at all.Sakura the main heroine is good example for that.

He is also bad at execution his ideas.Naruto doesn't even have an answer to the question,how he will bring peace.Tobis motive being 'Rin' was also ridiculous bad.

I like his drawing,I love how he draws the expression of the characters.He is also very good at keeping someone interested in the story and he is pretty good at portraying an emotional/tragic moment.


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## Lucrecia (Jan 2, 2013)

Many people who say "Kishi is bad writer" still read this manga. It's annoying to read this in almost every thread. Just because he doesn't write what some people expect _that should have happened in their opinion_ does not make him a bad writer imo.


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## Escargon (Jan 2, 2013)

Lucrecia said:


> Many people who say "Kishi is bad writer" still read this manga. It's annoying to read this in almost every thread. Just because he doesn't write what some people expect _that should have happened in their opinion_ does not make him a bad writer imo.



Sometimes opinions are not opinions but facts no mather what other people say. Obito flashback is one perfect case.

I had a similar case with LPs album 1k suns. Its a fact it sucked even if people said no.

I still read this manga and listen to LP, you want to know why? I ignore.

I ignore Obitos existance because otherwise i wouldnt read this manga. I ignore that half of LPs album is made of samples otherwise i would take a dump on it. 
Ignoring something bad can make shit good. Thats what i get from it.


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## Shivers (Jan 2, 2013)

Eternity said:


> PS: To everyone else that comes with these "reasons" for calling Kishi a bad writer, this is mearly something you didn't like about his writing, and you label it bad writing. It's not bad, it's just something you didn't like. Deal with it... Or deny it. Your choice.


Oh, yes?

Well, to everyone else that comes with these "reasons" for calling Kishi a good writer, that is merely something you like about his writing, and label good. It's not good, it's just something you like. Deal with it, or deny it. Your choice.


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## Ernie (Jan 2, 2013)

_I don't like Lord Of The Rings so the writer is bad? The logic from some in here -> facepalms everywhere!._


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## Eternity (Jan 2, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Oh, yes?
> 
> Well, to everyone else that comes with these "reasons" for calling Kishi a good writer, that is merely something you like about his writing, and label good. It's not good, it's just something you like. Deal with it, or deny it. Your choice.



If you had read more of my posts, you would have known that that is exactly what I am saying. Him being good is indeed just me liking his work. So I won't deal with it or deny it, I will agree with it.


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## Arthas (Jan 2, 2013)

Villain said:


> Not bad,not really good either.
> *The whole 'peace theme contradicts with the the theme of part 1.Part 1 was about hard working.Naruto the underdog  becomes strong through hard training.*In part 2 we find out that he has super awesome strong parents and that he is the choosen one who will bring peace to the world.It's the opposite of what part 1 used to be.We wouldn't have this problem now if he didn't put all that peace crap in this manga in the first place.
> 
> He just tries to put every Idea he has in his head in the manga to make this manga for 'interesting',whether it fits to context of the story or not.
> ...



Wait, what?

Where was it ever stated  that the main theme of the manga was about Hard Work? Seriously that was Lee's theme, a side character (as much as most readers wish otherwise) and not Naruto's theme.

Even in part one that theme was getting put down on, example: It got beaten to the ground and shot during the Naruto & Neji match when the only way that Naruto could beat the noble born and talented Neji was through using Kyuubi not through hard work...

Beyond that everyone was expecting that the Yondaime would be Naruto's father since they first saw a colored picture of the guy. 

I'm not saying Kishi necessarily a good writer, heck if I can find the time I'll note down the flaws of this manga, but it just annoys me that people bash Kishi without considering that they were mistaken in considering something was the main theme or not.


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## Shivers (Jan 2, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> _I don't like Lord Of The Rings so the writer is bad? The logic from some in here._



Your skills in parody are unparalleled.


Eternity said:


> If you had read more of my posts, you would have known that that is exactly what I am saying. Him being good is indeed just me liking his work. So I won't deal with it or deny it, I will agree with it.


And yet:


Eternity said:


> Dude, this is a story, not a fight between characters for your amusement.  Having the entir named good guys just go onto a battlefield and attack the four main antagonists...*THAT would be bad writing*.


Here you are making a judgment on some writing as 'bad'.


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## Eternity (Jan 2, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Your skills in parody are unparalleled.
> 
> And yet:
> 
> Here you are making a judgment on some writing as 'bad'.



I am sorry, did I forget to add (imo) at the end? My deepest apologies, Mr. Shivers, sir.


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## Kusa (Jan 2, 2013)

Arthas said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> Where was it ever stated  that the main theme of the manga was about Hard Work? Seriously that was Lee's theme, a side character (as much as most readers wish otherwise) and not Naruto's theme.


It was also Narutos theme.Naruto was the loser/underdog who trained most of the time just to become as strong as Sasuke e.t.c..



> Even in part one that theme was getting put down on, example: It got beaten to the ground and shot during the Naruto & Neji match when the only way that Naruto could beat the noble born and talented Neji was through using Kyuubi not through hard work...


Not only because of Kyuubi.Besides he made clear that he doesn't believe in 'destiny'  that time,now he is the choosen one who will bring peace to the world.I see a huge difference.


> Beyond that everyone was expecting that the Yondaime would be Naruto's father since they first saw a colored picture of the guy.


Not everyone.Moreover,not only his dad is super strong awesome ..,but also his mother.


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## Sora (Jan 2, 2013)

I think he's an okay writer


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## Baks (Jan 2, 2013)

Mateush said:


> No, he's not. Naruto is one of the most popular manga.



Since when does popularity equate to quality eh? XP

Imo Kishi is an overrated hack who's writing skills are average at best.


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## Black Sheep (Jan 2, 2013)

IMO, Kishi's writing has severely declined since Tobi took over as leader of the Akatsuki.


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## Arya Stark (Jan 2, 2013)

Bad _writer_? Do you have any certificate to critize Kishimoto in a serious way?This thread is full of opinion.

Nobody is perfect.But I can't say he's a good writer either.
You can blame females on his cultural upbringing (???)
You can like Anti-Villains more than "For The Evulz" type.

Also I think he created many amazing characters (though failed at developing).I'm glad to read Naruto even for these characters.I think any person who is into anime should meet with them.

However,
I think he did show his limits in Obito flashback.It was bad._Very bad._


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## Bontakun (Jan 2, 2013)

He's a decent writer. My two biggest complaints are bad psychological development in characters, and superficial romantic relationships.



GrandLordAtos said:


> My take is that his writing is average at worst, and interesting at best. He's not the worst offender of shonen decay, and a lot of people are still enjoying his work quite a bit. He touches up on themes not really tackled anymore in stories, and tries to make likable characters with large fan followings. He has several weaknesses as a writer, and this is pretty obvious, but there's a reason even the people who bitch about his writing come back to read it.
> 
> Whether they just like a single character, or love the overarching plot, Kishimoto has SOME talent as a writer, else these forums would be emptier than they are. Not all people will enjoy this story, and while I agree that part 1 was a little more enjoyable, I don't think that makes part 2 'shit' - just not everyone's cup of tea.



^ I agree with this.



Moon~ said:


> Bad _writer_? Do you have any certificate to critize Kishimoto in a serious way?This thread is full of opinion.



Any work of literature is FOR its readers, so we are all qualified to be critics.



> You can blame females on his cultural upbringing (???)



Can't when there are other manga with ass-kicking females, like the two in my sig.


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## Eternity (Jan 2, 2013)

Bontakun said:


> He's a decent writer. My two biggest complaints are bad psychological development in characters, and superficial romantic relationships.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sonotori! Exactomundo! Yatzy! Which means someone that call it amazing is just as correct as someone that call it shit. I like it, someone else doesn't. No good/bad, just like/dislike.


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## Shivers (Jan 2, 2013)

...it's Yahtzee.



EliteRamenNinja said:


> How to ignore people (who are not worthy to discuss with), please. Is there no button? Just asking.



Well, in between wiping away my tears at the approval you've cruelly denied me, I decided to oblige you:


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## Eternity (Jan 2, 2013)

Not in norwegian it's not.


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## Orochimariu (Jan 2, 2013)

To be honest, I'm not sure about my own opinion... Kishi either *is* a bad writer or he *became* a bad writer or he sucks just *in one or two aspects* of writing. 
Let me explain:

1. I see a huge downfall if I compare part 1 (and the beginning of part 2) with part 2. Part 1 was soo awesome, I literally devoured the chapters and anime episodes. But it gradually became worse and worse (humiliating destruction of Akatsuki, asspull haxx (sharingan) techniques, good guys win always, etc.)
From this vantage point I would say Kishi became a bad writer.

2. At the same time I also got the feeling Kishi's biggest fault (no balance in the fight between good and evil) actually was perceptible in part 1, although I couldn't see it back then. When Sakura and Chiyo fought against Sasori I was like "OMG, he's sooo strong, no way they win against this guy!" So their victory was really surprising to me in a positive way (although I liked Sasori), it seemed like a real heroic deed. Nowadays, I find fights like this pretty boring, because I know the good guys are going to win and no good character will die (or they will be revived). So maybe Kishi is a bad writer, but it wasn't clear from the beginning.

3. There are still great moments in part 2, e.g. the introduction of Mei and Onoki. Anyway, most characters were introduced in part 1, but they didn't develop in part 2 or their development sucked. This leads me to the assumption that Kishi is by all means great in character invention, but he sucks in character development, as others already mentioned.

However, I still read the manga for the following reasons:
1. The story still lives off its great part 1.
2. I try to ignore shit, just like Escargon.
3. I invested too much time to skip it before its (upcoming?) end.
4. There's a little hope it becomes better again (which I doubt).


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## Arya Stark (Jan 2, 2013)

Orochimariu said:


> 3. There are still great moments in part 2, e.g. the introduction of Mei and Onoki. Anyway, most characters were introduced in part 1, but they didn't develop in part 2 or their development sucked. This leads me to the assumption that Kishi is by all means great in character invention, but he sucks in character development, as others already mentioned.



I agree with this.He creates amazing characters.Introduction and the idea behind them are very well done.However as the story progress they become less important and completely forgotten.War arc. was a great opportunity for this problem but he blew it.
Same goes for existing characters too.He completely remade Obito's character for the sake of plot and ruined all the values he held as both Tobi and Obito.
The best example is Sakura for this.In the beginning of Part 2 she became a badass who could stand on her own but then...Kage Summit happened...


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## Arthas (Jan 2, 2013)

Villain said:


> It was also Narutos theme.Naruto was the loser/underdog who trained most of the time just to become as strong as Sasuke e.t.c..



Wait what? Where exactly in Part 1 did we see Naruto training for that much? The only thing I can really think of is when they learnt tree climbing and even it was fairly clear that it was due to a difference of Stamina/Chakra not inclination.




> Not only because of Kyuubi.Besides he made clear that he doesn't believe in 'destiny'  that time,now he is the choosen one who will bring peace to the world.I see a huge difference.



Seriously? I must have missed Naruto being able to overcome the 64-Tenketsu strike due to his hard work ethic...

As far as the Destiny thing goes I have my own reasons to hate it but what connection does that have with hard work?



> Not everyone.Moreover,not only his dad is super strong awesome ..,but also his mother.



Everyone suspected that the Yondaime was Naruto's dad for ages or at the very least considered it a fairly big possibility. As far as his mother goes, whether one or both of his parents were famous makes little difference.


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## Shivers (Jan 2, 2013)

> Wait what? Where exactly in Part 1 did we see Naruto training for that much?



Are you serious?

Did you miss the part where he tried so hard to learn the Rasengan that his hands were severely lacerated? (Or something like that) 

Not to mention when Naruto's use of tactics (rather than bombastic techniques) is complemented for being exemplary of a ninja i.e. his Chuunin Exam fight with Kiba, and getting Neji from underground, etc.


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## Turrin (Jan 2, 2013)

Not a bad writer, but not the best.


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## Rios (Jan 2, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Not to mention when Naruto's use of tactics (rather than bombastic techniques) is complemented for being exemplary of a ninja i.e. his Chuunin Exam fight with Kiba, and getting Neji from underground, etc.



You mean the fart and the casual Byakugan switch-off?


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## Kusa (Jan 2, 2013)

Arthas said:


> Wait what? Where exactly in Part 1 did we see Naruto training for that much? The only thing I can really think of is when they learnt tree climbing and even it was fairly clear that it was due to a difference of Stamina/Chakra not inclination.


Oh you didn't read the chapters where he trained like crazy to learn the Rasengan ?



> Seriously? I must have missed Naruto being able to overcome the 64-Tenketsu strike due to his hard work ethic...
> 
> As far as the Destiny thing goes I have my own reasons to hate it but what connection does that have with hard work?


The destiny thing says,just the 'chooen one' can achieve certain things,not the one who works hard for it.Some characters think Naruto will bring peace because he is the choosen one,not beacuse of his hard work to achieve peace.


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## Shivers (Jan 2, 2013)

*Spoiler*: _Nope_ 









*Spoiler*: _Not what I mean at all_ 















And for all that he had to draw on the Kyuubi chakra to _fight_, he stood up after getting every single chakra point sealed, all by himself. Like it or not, willpower, perservance and hard work were focuses of Part I.

And when he gets up a second time the overriding moral message there is clearly that there's nothing more powerful than the will - certainly not destiny.


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## Arthas (Jan 2, 2013)

Villain said:


> Oh you didn't read the chapters where he trained like crazy to learn the Rasengan ?



Your one of those if we didn't see it, it must not have happened guys right? Let me clarify, the main point of discussion is whether Naruto (Hard Worker Character in your view) trained enough to catch up to Sasuke (Genius Character in your view).

There have been a few times where we had the oppertunity to see both of them trainning, off hand I can only thing of two:

Tree Climbing & Chunnin Exam Prep.

The Rasengan example is a good one to show Naruto training hard  and to be honest I had almost forgotten about it, however if you really want to use that example, you would have to correspondingly show that Sasuke was choosing to laze about and rely on his *genius.*  Unfortunately at the time he was in a coma due to injuries. 

See your stating that Hard Work > Genius was a main theme, and that Naruto working hard is proof of this. Problem is in your Rasengan example Naruto got that extra oppertunity to catch up not just because he chose to work hard but because Sasuke did not have the same choice.  

Otherwise the point becomes that Hard Work > Genius if the Genius is forced to lie in bed for a month while the Hard Worker trains.

This is why I keep coming back to the Tree Climbing and Chuunin Exam training examples because in both cases, Naruto and Sasuke had the same oppertunity/time to train.

That being said I've always felt that if you really want an example of Hard Work being greater then Genius, then you should look at Rock Lee versus Shikamaru. 



> The destiny thing says,just the 'chooen one' can achieve certain things,not the one who works hard for it.Some characters think Naruto will bring peace because he is the choosen one,not beacuse of his hard work to achieve peace.



So the Chosen One can't work hard ? I must not have gotten that memo along with the one that Genius characters can't work hard too.



Shivers said:


> And for all that he had to draw on the Kyuubi chakra to _fight_, he stood up  after getting every single chakra point sealed, all by himself. Like it  or not, willpower, perservance and hard work were focuses of Part I.
> 
> And when he gets up a second time the overriding moral message there is clearly that there's nothing more powerful than the will - certainly not destiny.



Willpower: Yes.
Preserverence: Yes.
Hard Work: How the heck do you equate Hard Work with getting up there?

Not  to mention while giving him props for standing up is all well and good,  Naruto would still have LOST without the Kyuubi. (Why are you  interjecting Will and Preserverence into a Hard Work discussion any  way?)

Also Willpower & Preserverence have been focused on a fair bit in Part 2 as well.

And again, What the heck does Destiny have to do with Hard Work?


----------



## Mateush (Jan 2, 2013)

Baks said:


> Since when does popularity equate to quality eh? XP
> 
> Imo Kishi is an overrated hack who's writing skills are average at best.



So you are saying Naruto is average? Well, I agree lately it been a bit boring but overall it's a very good manga. I mean those twists about Itachi, Madara and more. Not to mention about Jiraiya's death, Naruto's training with Fukasaku, mystery about Tobi.

There are a lot great moments that I think Kishi deserves a little more than just "average".


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## Meoky59 (Jan 2, 2013)

Here's my take on it. 
Kishi certainly can improve on certain things such as portraying women and executing his ideas. However, with that said I think he is a pretty good writer for being able to have one of the most popular mangas and keeping it going for over 10 years (I would not be able to even attempt that). 
I don't think the 'don't call it bad unless you have written a manga too' thing isn't very accurate, because by that you wouldn't be able to call anything good either.
I will say that I think the manga would have turned out better if his editors weren't involved.


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## Ernie (Jan 2, 2013)

Just read the manga again -> Jiraiya vs Pain and the death of Jiraiya. Man, read it and come back again to tell me Kishi is a bad writer. Those chapters are amongst my favorite from all manga in the world. Freaking amazing, but also so sad.

Actually I should not have read it again (also watched that part in the anime again -> best part of the whole anime, so much emotion in it).  God, I still miss that Pervy Sage, after all that time. What an epic character. He and Naruto together on adventures, awesome.

And Kishi has written so much more good chapters. Some flaws in this long manga will not destroy the overall very enjoyable serie!


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## Talia00 (Jan 2, 2013)

Yes, he is a terrible one. He waste all of his potential by contradicting himself later down the line, and not giving other characters more development.


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## Ernie (Jan 2, 2013)

Talia said:


> Yes, he is a terrible one. He waste all of his potential by contradicting himself later down the line, and not giving other characters more development.



You can say this also to One Piece, to Bleach, to Fairy Tail, ... were also some characters does not have the main attention from the writer. Such reasons are laughable, with all my respect. Like Kishi can take ALL popular characters as the same in panel time or development.


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## Shivers (Jan 2, 2013)

> Just read the manga again -> Jiraiya vs Pain and the death of Jiraiya. Man, read it and come back again to tell me Kishi is a bad writer. Those chapters are amongst my favorite from all manga. Freaking amazing, but also so sad.



Anything in Part I is better than those chapters.


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## Talia00 (Jan 2, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> You can say this also to One Piece, to Bleach, to Fairy Tail, ... were also some characters does not have the main attention from the writer. Such reasons are laughable, with all my respect. Like Kishi can take ALL popular characters as the same in panel time or development.



I have read mangas like Gantz, that focus HEAVILY on side characters. They are given time to develop, they are given distinct personalities, they aren't "wall-paper". They don't arrive and literally have the same personalities they had 100 chapters ago.

Saying my reasons are "laughable" because 

1. I don't like the way women are portrayed in this manga

2. The side characters are horribly handled

3. Kishi has contradicted himself with "The child of destiny"

4. Kishi literally destroyed his main character in part 2 to the point it took him awhile to somewhat redeem himself by his obsession over a guy that doesn't care for him.

I can literally go on and show why Kishi is terrible at writing, but I really don't need to.


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## Shivers (Jan 2, 2013)

And in response to your neg, Eternity, nope, I'm not trolling.


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## Eternity (Jan 2, 2013)

Shivers said:


> And in response to your neg, Eternity, nope, I'm not trolling.


Oh my. . 

To each their own I guess.


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## Ernie (Jan 2, 2013)

Talia said:


> 1. I don't like the way women are portrayed in this manga
> 
> 2. The side characters are horribly handled
> 
> ...



1. Opinion, me, as a male, like how they are drawned.  Past year Ino and Hinata really had some important roles!

2. Some are, some not. It is normal in a long-running manga. Even in Berserk, wich is brilliant for the rest.

3. I like that "Child of Destiny" stuff, because I saw that coming while reading part 1 and from the moment I knew Minato is Naruto's father. I totally do not see Naruto as a Messiah but as someone who felt hatred for so many years, trained hardcore like a boss and eventually everyone started to accept him findally. He now needs to save all those asses. (It is not like someone clapped in his hands and suddenly he was a hero, no, he worked hard for it and he had to convince so many people)

4. Long time ago that I saw something of that 'obsession' actually. And also before that I had no problem about it, only that hyperventilation was bullshit.

Part 1 was also for a big role about rescuing Sasuke and between the bonds between Naruto and Sasuke... but here everyone ADMIRES part 1 and then some say part 2 is not as good because of the Naruto-Sasuke brothership/friendship/rescuing stuff... Eum what? That is just not logical. It is one of the main points of this serie.


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## Eternity (Jan 2, 2013)

Talia said:


> I have read mangas like Gantz, that focus HEAVILY on side characters. They are given time to develop, they are given distinct personalities, they aren't "wall-paper". They don't arrive and literally have the same personalities they had 100 chapters ago.
> 
> Saying my reasons are "laughable" because
> 
> ...




Gantz? You mean that sorry excuse for manga where people are killed in the most freaky ways imaginable? Where these side characters are killled off after a few chapters and the main character get "the love of his life" time and time again, who then get killed? And that has no relateble plot, changing focus like a kitten on katnip? That Gantz?

And what is this about Naruto not focusing on side characters? Why, because tenten doesn't get a thousand panels in the war? Or because some fodder didn't have more meaning? 

And the very fact that you compare Naruto, a shounen manga, meant for young japanese male teenagers to Gantz, a manga I am pretty sure is meant for mentally deranged scohciopaths that want to see entrails and blood on every panel, makes me wonder.

I mean, that's like saying any contemporary fantasy/crime/drama book is aweful writing because it doesn't have the same fame and stature like high litterature, such as Shakespears works and the like.

It's silly.


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## Shivers (Jan 2, 2013)

> Naruto, a shounen manga, meant for young japanese male teenagers to Gantz, a manga I am pretty sure is meant for mentally deranged scohciopaths that want to see entrails and blood on every panel





> hat's like saying any contemporary fantasy/crime/drama book is aweful writing because it doesn't have the same fame and stature like high litterature, such as Shakespears works and the like.



Which is it?

Is Gantz a manga for 'mentally deranged scohciopaths' or does it have the fame and status of high literature?

I suppose it's _possible_ for it to be both, but I don't think that's what you were getting at.


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## WhiteWolf (Jan 2, 2013)

When it comes to Sasuke i'd say he's blown out of proportion. To the extent that i don't take Sasuke's revenge seriously at all.


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## Eternity (Jan 2, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Which is it?
> 
> Is Gantz a manga for 'mentally deranged scohciopaths' or does it the fame and status of high literature?
> 
> I suppose it's _possible_ for it to be both, but I don't think that's what you were getting at.



You missed my point entirely..and maybe my thought got a bit ahead of me..I do that sometimes. My train of though goes too fast for me to be able to express it well enough in text..

Anyway, what I mean it that Naruto and Gantz is two totally different genres. And that Gantz is not even a good manga in itself..


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## Epyon (Jan 2, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> 1. Opinion, me, as a male, like how they are drawned.  Past year Ino and Hinata really had some important roles!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Forces (Jan 2, 2013)

He's good at creating a plot and plot twists, and some other stuff
Not the best but not as bad as some people make him out to be either


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## slickcat (Jan 2, 2013)

nope, you cant please everone


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## Inferno (Jan 2, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> You can say this also to *One Piece,* to Bleach, to Fairy Tail, ... were also some characters does not have the main attention from the writer. Such reasons are laughable, with all my respect. Like Kishi can take ALL popular characters as the same in panel time or development.



One Piece characters get a lot more development than Naruto characters.


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## Shivers (Jan 2, 2013)

Eternity said:


> You missed my point entirely..and maybe my thought got a bit ahead of me..I do that sometimes. My train of though goes too fast for me to be able to express it well enough in text..
> Anyway, what I mean it that Naruto and Gantz is two totally different genres. And that Gantz is not even a good manga in itself..


The basic point is true enough. I didn't miss it, I just wanted to draw your attention to how poorly you expressed it.


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 2, 2013)

Kishi is a good writer but his story sucks now. I think that's what people are confusing. You guys are confusing story and writing. For example, One Piece is a better story but the writing compared to Kishi is not that good.


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 2, 2013)

Inferno said:


> One Piece characters get a lot more development than Naruto characters.



You don't get it. They may have good character development, but they have bad characterization. Take Akainu for example, it is never explained why he believes in that type of justice.

Kishimoto is overall the better writer than Oda, but Oda has the better story.

The Zabuza Arc alone is better than the first East Blue Arcs.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 2, 2013)

Right now ? Yes. With the assumption that he is still writing the manga.


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## Shivers (Jan 2, 2013)

> You don't get it. They may have good character development, but they have bad characterization. Take Akainu for example, it is never explained why he believes in that type of justice.
> 
> Kishimoto is overall the better writer than Oda, but Oda has the better story.
> 
> The Zabuza Arc alone is better than the first East Blue Arcs.



I don't want to kick off any shitstorms, but that's a really specious reason.

Many of the major characters do get the background to explain how they are when introduced. 

It's possible that Akainu eventually will, too.


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## Inferno (Jan 2, 2013)

-Dragon- said:


> You don't get it. They may have good character development, but they have bad characterization. Take Akainu for example, it is never explained why he believes in that type of justice.
> 
> Kishimoto is overall the better writer than Oda, but Oda has the better story.
> 
> The Zabuza Arc alone is better than the first East Blue Arcs.



We've had one arc with Akainu in it. We're obviously going to get his backstory once he becomes more relevant. Have we found out why Orochimaru's how he is? Or Madara? 

Oda's a better writer with a better story. But let's stick to Kishi in order to avoid a shitstorm.


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## Renyou (Jan 2, 2013)

-Dragon- said:


> You don't get it. They may have good character development, but they have bad characterization. Take Akainu for example, it is never explained why he believes in that type of justice.



Akainu will get a proper background eventually, especially now that he's one of major antagonists. One Piece still has about 10 more years of story remaining to be told, so you have to be patient with it.

Sorry for the off-topicness, carry on.


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## Shivers (Jan 2, 2013)

Dragon, your concept of 'good writing' rests entirely on the notion that it's more important than anything for characters' ideals to be challenged. And that is completely and utterly arbitrary.

On a separate note, I just re-read one of the few bits of Part II I found emotionally affecting and up there with the best bits of Part I, and it was Naruto meeting Kushina in his mind.

I think it says something that Kishi is at his best, not when feeding his audience cod philosophy or arrogant villainous blather about ideals and revenge and so forth: but when describing simple, everyday, yet strong bonds like that between parent and child. He should get back to his roots.


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 2, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Dragon, your concept of 'good writing' rests entirely on the notion that it's more important than anything for characters' ideals to be challenged. And that is completely and utterly arbitrary.
> 
> On a separate note, I just re-read one of the few bits of Part II I found emotionally affecting and up there with the best bits of Part I, and it was Naruto meeting Kushina in his mind.
> 
> I think it says something that Kishi is at his best, not when feeding his audience cod philosophy or arrogant villainous blather about ideals and revenge and so forth: but when describing simple, everyday, yet strong bonds like that between parent and child. He should get back to his roots.



No, that's just one of the examples. 

Kishimoto's pacing is way better than Oda's.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 2, 2013)

"Not getting it"? You're just terrible at explaining things.

One Piece isn't even halfway done, and it took until the end of the first half to know the main character's backstory, and the older characters' stories are being unraveled as it goes on. You attempt to use an example of a clearly incomplete character in one story, with a "complete" character in another and use that as the basis on why Kishi is the better writer. Absolute horseshit.


----------



## Bruce Wayne (Jan 2, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> "Not getting it"? You're just terrible at explaining things.
> 
> One Piece isn't even halfway done, and it took until the end of the first half to know the main character's backstory, and the older characters' stories are being unraveled as it goes on. You attempt to use an example of a clearly incomplete character in one story, with a "complete" character in another and use that as the basis on why Kishi is the better writer. Absolute horseshit.



Then would you care to explain?


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## Suigetsu (Jan 2, 2013)

Rios said:


> Go big or go home. Thats what part 2 essentially is. The scope got bigger and the expectations grew with it. Unfortunately he doesnt seem to feel comfortable doing a grand scale war, thats why it was reduced to battles with several overpowered edos. Not going to delve deep into this but IMO he tried to swallow something way too big.
> 
> Thankfully Naruto is popular enough to keep him afloat.



What this guy said, I think that if he could go back in time, he would had done the war in a different and more simple way.

Leave the big events to guys like Oda.


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## Inferno (Jan 2, 2013)

Oda's pacing isn't bad. His story is just a much longer story than Kishi's


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 2, 2013)

Inferno said:


> Oda's pacing isn't bad. His story is just a much longer story than Kishi's



The story is great but the pacing in One Piece is really bad. Just look at Skypeia.


----------



## Enclave (Jan 2, 2013)

Escargon said:


> I like most of Kishis early work and thats in part 2 too but i dont like when he drags fights and then clusterfucks a chapter and offpanels everything. And his reveals and villains motives sucks. He should just make villains evil instead of making them missunderstood.



I still don't think Obitos motive is bad, you just have to think how he's thinking.  Nothing matters because anything "wrong" with the world he'll fix with infinte tsukiyomi.  He's snapped.


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## Viper (Jan 2, 2013)

Too bad the OP didn't come up with any of this himself, he just listened to this livestream and repeated everything uberhikari said. Literally said everything you said and you even linked this in our FC earlier. And btw, I listened to the whole livestream while playing FIFA so I remember everything that was said.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnPTVulW5ys[/YOUTUBE]


Skip to the middle for the OP vs Naruto debate.


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## Escargon (Jan 3, 2013)

Putting a bombtags on a baby some months after getting betrayed like it happens with every other ninja.

Obito should have stayed home if he couldnt accept the fate of the ninja.

Plus Kakashi cared about Obito and Rin and IGNORED his mission and came back to rescue Obito losing his eye.
Why didnt Obito slap his face and ask him what happened?

Its like Tobi and Obito are two complete different characters. And yeah the reason he does this is because of Rin, he said so to Kakashi, thats the main reason.
He killed his family, he killed innocent childs, because of Rin.


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## Six* (Jan 3, 2013)

Is Kishimoto a good writer? Given the circumstances of writing for a weekly manga? Yeah, sure.

And keep in mind that he's not only a writer but also an artist. Not only does he have to write the story, he also has to do a storyboard and then eventually turn it into a comic. To do all that every week? It's not something anybody can just do. It's a lot of hardwork, and to be able to keep it up for years... It's truly amazing. 

How would Naruto be like if Kishimoto didn't have a weekly schedule to follow... Well, it could probably be way better. We can't really compare his work to say, a novelist who has months or years to polish the story.


----------



## RatchetNinja (Jan 3, 2013)

"ITZ NAHT ABOUT RIN" its about her hoe azz dammit ! If it aint about her its about what then ?


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## Escargon (Jan 3, 2013)

Kishi had years of planning Tobi and it turned out to be shit. 



RatchetNinja said:


> "ITZ NAHT ABOUT RIN" its about her hoe azz dammit ! If it aint about her its about what then ?



He got many reasons but Rin is the main one. I think Rin is the only thing that keeps him motivated.


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## Ernie (Jan 3, 2013)

Epyon said:


> But that is one of the big main points from this manga. The Will of Fire vs the Will of Hatred. Hashirama vs Madara, Minato vs Obito, Naruto vs Sasuke... Many felt the same pain, hatred. But some went good, some went bad. Naruto knows the pain Sasuke is feeling and wants to save him from that. Except for the hyperventilation bullshit, I do not agree with you and I think it is normal that Naruto wants to save his 'brother' (he thinks about it like that). I never had the feeling while reading that Naruto only thinks about Sasuke, never. He cares about everyone but saving Sasuke is just one of the plots from this manga. _But since the war started Naruto has not mentioned Sasuke yet... _. I think Kishi is waiting for the moment Sasuke arrives at the battlefield. I mean, say what you want, but since part 1 the bonds between Naruto and Sasuke is important. I like it how Naruto wants to save a friend who had (Sasuke still haves) the same living hell he had.
> 
> But I agree with you on the fact Jiraiya is missed. And a lot!


----------



## Kusa (Jan 3, 2013)

Arthas said:


> Your one of those if we didn't see it, it must not have happened guys right? Let me clarify, the main point of discussion is whether Naruto (Hard Worker Character in your view) trained enough to catch up to Sasuke (Genius Character in your view).
> 
> There have been a few times where we had the oppertunity to see both of them trainning, off hand I can only thing of two:
> 
> ...


Thats not my point.The Genius will train hard too but the one who is *only* a hard worker won't be successful in the end like the Genius.In other words,he will lose no matter how hard he trained for it and only because he is not choosen one.
In part 2 Naruto is the choosen one to bring peace,other characters may want is as much as Naruto,but only Naruto will able to bring it,since he is the one who is choosen for it.
This contradicts with the message from part 1,that *everyone *who wants something very bad and trains for it will be successful.


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## Ernie (Jan 3, 2013)

Villain said:


> This contradicts with the message from part 1,that *everyone *who wants something very bad and trains for it will be successful.



Oh my...  That's what you are making from it...

You can also say that it is nice to see that someone who never got acknowlegded now need so save everyone's asses... 

You are like part 2 was not about hard work anymore, while Naruto still trained hardcore like a boss. He still needed to convince everyone!


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## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Shivers said:


> The basic point is true enough. I didn't miss it, I just wanted to draw your attention to how poorly you expressed it.



                                .


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## Gino (Jan 3, 2013)

There is no argument to be had here Kishi is a shit writer right now and I still read the manga because I fucking can.


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 3, 2013)

Viper said:


> Too bad the OP didn't come up with any of this himself, he just listened to this livestream and repeated everything uberhikari said. Literally said everything you said and you even linked this in our FC earlier. And btw, I listened to the whole livestream while playing FIFA so I remember everything that was said.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnPTVulW5ys[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> ...



If you look at the date of the OP and then the date of the livestream.


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## Seraphiel (Jan 3, 2013)

-Dragon- said:


> If you look at the date of the OP and then the date of the livestream.



Both is January first


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 3, 2013)

Seraphiel said:


> Both is January first


Really? I only saw it yesterday. 

Seriously, I only saw it yesterday.


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## Ninjainheart (Jan 3, 2013)

He's not a bad writer but he has his flaws.


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## iSmile (Jan 3, 2013)

I still like Naruto and Kishi, anyway.
imo he is very good at what he does otherwise I wouldn't read it.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 3, 2013)

Six said:


> Is Kishimoto a good writer? Given the circumstances of writing for a weekly manga? Yeah, sure.
> 
> And keep in mind that he's not only a writer but also an artist. Not only does he have to write the story, he also has to do a storyboard and then eventually turn it into a comic. To do all that every week? It's not something anybody can just do. It's a lot of hardwork, and to be able to keep it up for years... It's truly amazing.
> 
> How would Naruto be like if Kishimoto didn't have a weekly schedule to follow... Well, it could probably be way better. We can't really compare his work to say, a novelist who has months or years to polish the story.



QFT

Asking whether Kishimoto is a "bad writer" is far too broad a question. It's clear that Kishimoto is a talented writer and a talented artist. But it's also clear that he has his strengths and weaknesses. It's also clear that for the international readers, quite a lot is lost in translation.

Warning, you might want to skip this bit of text.
*Spoiler*: __ 



That said, I find it fascinating to compare and contrast different parts of the manga:

 Chapter Zero / Manga Pilot
 Introduction Arc + Land of Waves Arc
 Chūnin Exam Arc + Invasion of Konoha Arc + Search for Tsunade Arc + Sasuke Retrieval Arc
 Kakashi Gaiden + Kazekage Rescue Arc + Sasuke and Sai Arc + Hidan and Kakuzu Arc
 Itachi Pursuit Arc + Invasion of Pain Arc + Five Kage Summit Arc
 Confining the Jinchūriki Arc + Shinobi World War Arc
One of the things to keep in mind, is that Kishimoto never created the World of Naruto as a whole. It evolved over the course of Part 1 into the world we now recognize. The Land of Waves arc is clearly a hybrid: it contains elements of Chapter Zero, but it also introduces elements we now take for granted.

The plot of Part 1 is however the same as the plot of the Pilot: Naruto making friends. The Sasuke Retrieval arc does away with the "making friends plot", and introduces two new goals for Naruto: save Sasuke from Orochimaru, and fight Akatsuki.

If you look at the first arcs from Part 2 (Kakashi Gaiden + Kazekage Rescue Arc + Sasuke and Sai Arc + Hidan and Kakuzu Arc), you can clearly see the effort that Kishimoto put in. Konoha gets a dark element with the introduction of Danzo. Kakashi Gaiden connects Konoha with Iwagakure. Kakashi's father is connected with Chiyo and Sasori. Kakuzu is connected to Senju Hashirama. There's quite a lot of world building going on. The sad part is, it's only about 100 chapters and that's two years with much Sasuke. And neither Orochimaru, Danzo or Akatsuki were helpful in giving Sasuke some relevance to the plot. And the changes that Kishimoto will introduce in the next 3 arcs will make sure that 3 of these arcs will completely lose their relevance to the story.

The Itachi Pursuit Arc removes Orochimaru fom the story. The Invasion of Pain Arc removes Akatsuki from the story and turns it into a puppet organisation. The Five Kage Summit Arc removes Danzo from the story. The main plot turns out to be about the rivalry between the Senju clan and the Uchiha clan.

But the Shinobi World War Arc clearly shows some of Kishimoto's weaknesses as a writer. He had all these little fights set up (like the Hyuga twins), but it would create a horribly paced story. Both the Edo's and the Zetsu clones had to be written out of the story.

It's actually quite interesting to look at these parts of the manga and see what Kishimoto planned and didn't plan.




In the end, Kishimoto is not a bad writer nor is he a bad artist. *Kishimoto is a bad juggler.* At times he drops the ball, and something important like: characterisation, pacing, plot relevance, show don't tell, or logic doesn't get the attention it deserves. It's all due to the time constraints he has to operate under.

*But this is also a problem Kishimoto created for himself.* Oda created a world that makes it easy to plan and subsequently execute. After each island, Oda only has to keep the plot relevant parts (like a new crew member) and he can forget about the rest (basically). As for planning ahead, Oda only has to plan the plot relevance for a particular island, and can choose the details of an island (like its climate) when the story gets closer to that island.

Kishimoto wants everything to be connected, but he doesn't have the time to make it truly believable. With the unfortunate result that the story at present only makes sense on a thematic level.


----------



## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 3, 2013)

Kaix said:


> I agree, but I don't think it's just his characterization. What I find is that he lacks emphasis at certain key points. He leaves moments too subtle and doesn't wrap up these moments. Like the whole Nagato thing would have been received better if he had placed more emphasis on the part where he expresses doubt in his objective, before even meeting Naruto, and then maybe having some reference to that later.
> 
> What I think happens with the characterization issue is that he creates characters people like and want to see developed and they expect that to happen because that's how a lot of manga are written; small scale stories that only have as many characters as they need. In an average manga when a character is finished their character arc is wrapped up and they leave, whether by being killed off or leaving the scope of the story. That's fine and dandy, but Kishimoto thinks on a larger scale then that. The style of story telling is awkward to some people because it's world-driven. In world-driven, characters exist because the world, not the story, needs for them to exist. They are then used by the story for the purpose of the narrative, but ultimately their arcs are not important. There is no need to ever wrap up Tenten's life because she isn't primarily a character of the story, she is a character of the world. In other words Tenten is not important enough to Naruto(the focus of the story) to receive any development. Her main role is to fill out the world, because without her, team Gai, whose other three members are important to the story, doesn't make sense.
> 
> ...



I've never heard of a world driven story before, to be honest. I do know about the concepts of "character driven" and "plot driven". But those are not mutually exclusive concepts. IMHO, it seems that you're describing a different balance between character driven and plot driven for each culture based on their cultural preferences.

Personally, I think that the manga changed from being a mostly character driven story, to a mostly plot driven story starting with the Itachi Persuit arc.


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## Kusa (Jan 3, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> Oh my...  That's what you are making from it...
> 
> You can also say that it is nice to see that someone who never got acknowlegded now need so save everyone's asses...
> 
> You are like part 2 was not about hard work anymore, while Naruto still trained hardcore like a boss. He still needed to convince everyone!



I know Naruto trained hard(when did I say he didn't ?),but others trained hard too,yet Naruto is going to be the one who will bring peace,because he in some peoples eyes he is'choosen'for this.


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## Ernie (Jan 3, 2013)

Villain said:


> I know Naruto trained hard(when did I say he didn't ?),but others trained hard too,yet Naruto is going to be the one who will bring peace,because he in some peoples eyes he is'choosen'for this.



Ok, what is wrong with that?


----------



## Kusa (Jan 3, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> Ok, what is wrong with that?



Did you read my post ?It's not wrong,but it contradicts with the message of part 1,which was that *everyone * and not a special person can achieve certain goals with a strong will and hard work.


----------



## Ernie (Jan 3, 2013)

I don't understand you. Not everyone can be the best?


----------



## Epyon (Jan 3, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> But that is one of the big main points from this manga. The Will of Fire vs the Will of Hatred. Hashirama vs Madara, Minato vs Obito, Naruto vs Sasuke... Many felt the same pain, hatred. But some went good, some went bad.



Well, you have to remember most of the stuff here was monologue delivered by Obito putting on his Madara Uchiha persona. He doesn't didn't mean any of this stuff. He doesn't hate Minato either. 



> Naruto knows the pain Sasuke is feeling and wants to save him from that. Except for the hyperventilation bullshit, I do not agree with you and I think it is normal that Naruto wants to save his 'brother' (he thinks about it like that). I never had the feeling while reading that Naruto only thinks about Sasuke, never. He cares about everyone but saving Sasuke is just one of the plots from this manga. _But since the war started Naruto has not mentioned Sasuke yet... _.



I know Naruto cares about everyone but I think for instance making Kakuzu out to be milestone on his way to Sasuke and therefore has to be faced by Naruto alone is quite out of nowhere. Kakuzu doesn't have anything to do with that. Having him pick a fight with someone for willing in a spot on the team three years after Sasuke left isn't all that reasonable either. 


> I think Kishi is waiting for the moment Sasuke arrives at the battlefield. I mean, say what you want, but since part 1 the bonds between Naruto and Sasuke is important.



I do not think Sasuke is headed for the battlefield. If he did, we wouldn't need this "I want to meet ones who know everything" arc. That's one of the big problem. Yeah Naruto and Sasuke is important. But it's set up as the LAST thing Naruto is gonna fix. Until then, fate simply has to think up ways to delay Sasuke destroying Konoha. He's been en route since the early 400's. 



> I like it how Naruto wants to save a friend who had (Sasuke still haves) the same living hell he had.



Again Naruto has admitted he didn't really have a clue was Sasuke was going through after all until quite recently.



> But I agree with you on the fact Jiraiya is missed. And a lot!



Yeah he is. But I'm not talking about Jiraiya specifically with this. You say you are perplexed that people enjoy Part 1 when Naruto wanting Sasuke back was a thing back then too.

But in Part 1 the moment Naruto still expressed a desire to bring him back after he killed him we see Sakura wanting to call the thing off and Jiraiya calling out on it. With Jiraiya, the desire to make him wanna give up all this came from a place of wisdom and wanting what's best for Naruto. There are still people whose Christmas list Sasuke isn't on in Part 2 but it's like early Sai, Sasuke himself, Danzo or early Raikage. They were just being jerks to Naruto and had to pay for it soon afterwards.



> Her main role is to fill out the world, because without her, team Gai, whose other three members are important to the story, doesn't make sense.



Tenten, I can agree with. We have not been made to care about her all that much. LEE is a different story. He _was _very important. In Part 1, Neji and Lee were Shikamaru/Jiraiya levels of important. Now a lot of Neji's screentime came from when he was an antagonist to Naruto and his storyline was kinda concluded but with Lee, he dropped to Tenten status after the end of Part 1. And they aren't the only ones.


----------



## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Villain said:


> I know Naruto trained hard(when did I say he didn't ?),but others trained hard too,yet Naruto is going to be the one who will bring peace,because he in some peoples eyes he is'choosen'for this.



He isn't chosen. A prophecy is as good as the ones believing it. He isn't chosen by some higher power to become the savior, he put it upon himself to do what others couldn't. He chose for himself to be the one to stop this in the way he believes is right, because nobody else seem to be able to.

He is working his ass off to follow his way of the ninja. His choice, his hard work. 

And then we have his friends. The ones that always stood by his side. The reason he made it so far. Bonds.

Yes, bonds, the single most important thing in part 1. What part 1 was all about. And what part 2 has been about as well. Not "the chosen one". That was, imo, only to strengthen our belief that he would succeed in the end. Not the main theme of part 2. The chosen one stuff only came up over 100 chapters into part 2. And has never been a driving force behind what Naruto has been doing. 

Even when he stood face to face with Pain, and Pain said that they where the same. That they both saw themselves as the saviour of the ninja world, but Naruto said that was not true. He only wanted peace, and he wanted it to happen through understanding, not through the endless cycle of war and conflict that breeds hatred and pain.

So no, part 2 has never been about the chosen one. It is about what part 1 was about (bonds) and the wish for peace, that came from Naruto's growth into a man. He saw the world for what it truly was, and he pormised himself to change the world as a result of that.


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## Kusa (Jan 3, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> I don't understand you. Not everyone can be the best?



Part 1 Naruto disagress with you.He thought _everyone _who works hard could achieve anything.Thats why he was always so sure,that would become Hokage one day.


----------



## Ernie (Jan 3, 2013)

Epyon said:


> Again Naruto has admitted he didn't really have a clue was Sasuke was going through after all until quite recently.



No, even at part 1 he was thinking sometimes "whats with this guy" and he also knew quite soon that Sasuke was in pain. When he and Sasuke crossed each other at that bridge after the Danzo fight, he also said he knew Sasuke was full with anger/hatred before they even were in the same team. He literally said that. In the way like this "I knew I was not alone in my youth with that pain, that hatred, I knew you felt the same."


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## Ernie (Jan 3, 2013)

Villain said:


> Part 1 Naruto disagress with you.He thought _everyone _who works hard could achieve anything.Thats why he was always so sure,that would become Hokage one day.



You are looking waaaaay to far. Tjeech, I still can't understand you. 

Edit: Eternity, bravo! Nicely said.


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## Kirito (Jan 3, 2013)

ovanz said:


> Kishimoto isn't a good or bad writer. He is a good salesman, he sells big this thing.



This one.

It's the reason why there's titles as best-selling authors and not best writing authors.


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## Hossaim (Jan 3, 2013)

There are people who think Naruto being the prophecy child isn't the dumbest shit ever?

Faith in humanity - 10


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## Ernie (Jan 3, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> There are people who think Naruto being the prophecy child isn't the dumbest shit ever?
> 
> Faith in humanity - 10



Strong argument. Again!


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Jan 3, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> There are people who think Naruto being the prophecy child isn't the dumbest shit ever?
> 
> Faith in humanity - 10



Yeah that was terrible. I could just feel it was some forced attempt to breathe relevance into Naruto's character again, which is unfortunate because it should've never come to that.


----------



## Hossaim (Jan 3, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> Strong argument. Again!



You want me to go into detail?

Part 1- Those who work hard can acheive anything, the circumstances of your birth don't matter.

Part 2- NARUTO U WERE BORN TO BE DA SAVIOUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Hatifnatten (Jan 3, 2013)

Is PSY Korean?


----------



## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> You want me to go into detail?
> 
> Part 1- Those who work hard can acheive anything, the circumstances of your birth don't matter.
> 
> Part 2- NARUTO U WERE BORN TO BE DA SAVIOUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Stop trolling.

I just posted with an argument that rips the idea that part 2 is about naruto being born a savior to shreds. And then you and tell exactly that. Trolling doesn't get any worse then that..


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 3, 2013)

Eternity said:


> Stop trolling.
> 
> I just posted with an argument that rips the idea that part 2 is about naruto being born a savior to shreds. And then you and tell exactly that. Trolling doesn't get any worse then that..



That's you attempting to get around a clear plot point, one of which is the big draw in his speeches as of late as him being the chosen savior. A prophecy of any sort related to Naruto's achievements only makes him a tool of destiny, that acts in accordance to a path already laid out for him. Even his pedigree paves the way of his path to greatness, I mean Minato? OK, we all knew that but now his mom was apart of some prestigious clan related to the Senju but more awesome, and his coming predicted by Ninja God? Come on.


----------



## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Eternity said:


> He isn't chosen. A prophecy is as good as the ones believing it. He isn't chosen by some higher power to become the savior, he put it upon himself to do what others couldn't. He chose for himself to be the one to stop this in the way he believes is right, because nobody else seem to be able to.
> 
> He is working his ass off to follow his way of the ninja. His choice, his hard work.
> 
> ...






Just leaving this here to strengthen my post even more.


----------



## Epyon (Jan 3, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> No, even at part 1 he was thinking sometimes "whats with this guy" and he also knew quite soon that Sasuke was in pain. When he and Sasuke crossed each other at that bridge after the Danzo fight, he also said he knew Sasuke was full with anger/hatred before they even were in the same team. He literally said that. In the way like this "I knew I was not alone in my youth with that pain, that hatred, I knew you felt the same."



He also, literally said "I understand *now*, how Sasuke felt. I know what revenge is. I thought I understood him... But I really didn't. No wonder nothing I said to him got through." 

Anyway, yes. the Naruto and Sasuke relationship is an important plot in the manga. But in Part 1, this was a thing because they had scenes together. In Part 2 they are always seperated and Sasuke no longer cares at all so what we mostly get is.


So people prefer Part 1.

About the chosen one thing. The thing is. Naruto was chosen.... By Jiraiya. At 16 years old. I don't really have a problem with that. The plot line was mostly about Jiraiya and Nagato anyway.


----------



## Ernie (Jan 3, 2013)

Eternity said:


> Just leaving this here to strengthen my post even more.



*Thank you, was looking for this one! *


----------



## Hossaim (Jan 3, 2013)

Eternity said:


> He isn't chosen. A prophecy is as good as the ones believing it. He isn't chosen by some higher power to become the savior, he put it upon himself to do what others couldn't. He chose for himself to be the one to stop this in the way he believes is right, because nobody else seem to be able to.


He was chosen by the frog sennin before his birth, that is cannon fact. 



> He is working his ass off to follow his way of the ninja. His choice, his hard work.


Worked his ass off? You mean LOL KYUUBIHAX.




> And then we have his friends. The ones that always stood by his side. The reason he made it so far. Bonds.


Friends? You mean people he has never had real conversation with?



> Yes, bonds, the single most important thing in part 1. What part 1 was all about. And what part 2 has been about as well. Not "the chosen one". That was, imo, only to strengthen our belief that he would succeed in the end. Not the main theme of part 2. The chosen one stuff only came up over 100 chapters into part 2. And has never been a driving force behind what Naruto has been doing.


Your right, that's been Sasuke. But you can't ignore that it made his ego 100x bigger, and made him more ignoratn. 



> Even when he stood face to face with Pain, and Pain said that they where the same. That they both saw themselves as the saviour of the ninja world, but Naruto said that was not true. He only wanted peace, and he wanted it to happen through understanding, not through the endless cycle of war and conflict that breeds hatred and pain.


Except that kind of peace only exists in wild fantasy worlds and Naruto is a fool for believing in it, it's only due to the fact that Kishi is a total pussy that Naruto will get his way. 



> So no, part 2 has never been about the chosen one. It is about what part 1 was about (bonds) and the wish for peace, that came from Naruto's growth into a man. He saw the world for what it truly was, and he pormised himself to change the world as a result of that.


He saw the world for what it truly was? Naruto saw ramen and Sasuke in part 1 and that's about it, he wanted to get stronger for Sasuke, then Jiraiya showed up and made him reconsider a little but it was only when he herd the prophecy that he decided to save the world .

Your terrible childish arguments are a waste of my time.


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## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> That's you attempting to get around a clear plot point, one of which is the big draw in his speeches as of late as him being the chosen savior*. *A prophecy of any sort related to Naruto's achievements only makes him a tool of destiny, that acts in accordance to a path already laid out for him.



Not at all. Not even close. This is exactly what I just said in my big post. He never relied upon the prophecy, he never viewed himself as a savior at all. 

And think about the bonds man! THE BONDS! Naruto tried to be the one to do it all alone (which he did long before he heared about the prphecy), but on multiple occations, the bonds (his friends) saved him, helped him and took him further. Not only has he not seen himself as a savior, but as someone that wanted to help his friends (keep his bonds safe), BUT he ALSO isn't the savior at all! He has all his friends. His friends have been with him from the start!


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## Ernie (Jan 3, 2013)

Hossaim -> ignore list. Rarely saw such a fanboy writing such nonsense.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 3, 2013)

Naruto's coming was predicted before his birth, and even his conception. The matter of him being the destined child was not his choice to make. He was born into, and destined for, greatness.



> Not at all. Not even close. This is exactly what I just said in my big post. He never relied upon the prophecy, he never viewed himself as a savior at all.



He told Raikage he was the savior.


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## Nitharad (Jan 3, 2013)

-Dragon- said:


> This is probably my first thread in this section..This is just a short post about what I think about Kishi as a writer
> 
> Let's beginning:
> 
> ...



No, Kishimoto is a bad writer. He may be a good world builder, but a terrible writer.

First these "over all themes" you've mentioned.

What are the themes of Naruto ?
Forge your own Destiny ? (As demonstrated during the Neji vs. Naruto fight)
Hard work can surpass a genius ? (Lees entire motivation)
The younger generation will surpass the old ? 

How about more personal themes ?
Let's look at the Sasuke vs. Naruto rivaly:

Sasuke had it all, he is a member of one of the strongest clans that gives him a "natural edge" in the form of the Sharingan, he has pretty good parents, he's incredibly popular with everyone, especially the girls. All the teachers describe him as a genius. He's propably pretty rich because he can afford to live in this nice apartment. 
Now Naruto on the other hand had nothing, no parents, no friends, no talent, he was an outcast, feared and hated, he failed exams left and right, he was cursed with a demon sealed inside of him. He was the underdog.

How did it all hold up ?

As we now know, Neji was always right about destiny and Naruto is the absolute poster child for that, being the "chosen one" that has been talked about in propecies. 
Hard work doesn't really matter, what matters are haxxed abilities, without some link to the Senju and/or Uchiha the top-tier will be unreachable for you.
All the enemies and top-threats are from the old generation, and they all demonstrate abilities far greater than most things the younger generation has acccomplished so far.

Naruto stands now head and shoulders above Sasuke, he is a member of the Uzumaki clan, he can control his Jinchuuriki powers, apperantly to no ill effect, his father was a super-genius and Hokage, his Mother was "chosen" as a Jinchuuriki, Naruto is he hero of Konoha, if not the entire alliance.


Even when looking at battles itself this trend becomes apperant thanks to this ridiculous power inflation.
At the beginning (Zabusa, Haku) a lot of fighting was Taijutsu, Weapons like Kunais and Shuriken were a serious threat, Jutsus were few and rare to give you a tactical advantage or have one big brute force attack. The Hokage fight during the Sand/Sound Invasion should've been the pinnacle of power.
Now even unnamed fodder can pull village-destroying Jutsus out of their sleeves.

The whole Ninja theme is just a gimmick when all they do is throwing around magic. They're wizards with a Ninja theme.


One of the biggest problems for Kishimoto is that he is unable to use what he already has, instead of building on what he has, he just adds adds adds and adds.
The Sharingan is the most obvious example ... it started out as an ability to just copy Jutsus. This alone could be an amazing and interesting ability, especially when we have Characters like Kakashi who have titles like "The Copy-Ninja who has learned 1000 Jutsus".
Wouldn't it have been super interesting to see Sasuke grow in battle strength by copying and combining the Jutsus of enemies he has fought in the past ? 
But no, now it can: be a microscope, look through skin, see chakra, see through genjutsu, cast genjutsu, summon demon-mechas, rewrite reality, shoot flames, etc.
It holds no less than: 1 ultimate Ninjutsu, 1 ultimate "defense" and 3 (!) ultimate Genjutsus.


Then of course we have all these bad fanfiction moments like Kin/Gingaku ... terrible OC-sues in my opinion.
We've never heard of these two, but they're superstrong, have a super-unique look, resemble Naruto, are strong enough to be eaten by the Kyuubi and survive, define a completly new class of Ninjas as "pseudo-Jinchuuriki" and have basicly Narutos powers. And they have not one, not two, but ALL of the legendary haxxed artifacts that once belonged to THE god of the Ninja world himself.
Seriously, I could've dreamed up better Mary Sues when I was in fourth grade (and I did !).

Or the whole Juubi thing ... it has been introduced SO late into the story, it's not even funny anymore. If this really was planned from the beginning then foreshadow it ... this is bad fanfiction niveau. Same is true for the whole Senju/Uchiha and Rikudo backstory.
It would've been fine and interesting enough to give them a politival background, that these two were the strongest rival clans of an old era in the Ninja history. But no, now it is "destiny" because they had the same ancestor and the two sons didn't like each other.

Hey, remember Kabutos "old Blood" ? That could've been interesting.



I could go on about characters and how many are an incredible waste of talent and interesting potential, but this is already long enough.

Btw. I've never cared about Jiraya, his death left me cold and I'm even suprised so many people cared about him. 
But Jiraya had at least some presence unlike Asuma ...


----------



## Hossaim (Jan 3, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> Hossaim -> ignore list. Rarely saw such a fanboy writing such nonsense.



Are you 8 years old?

You think Naruto is funny and that there can be perfect peace and all this bullshit.

Someone needs to grow the fuck up.

Also

>Refuses to hear a word against Naruto, Jiraiya and Teuchi
>Calls me a fanboy


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## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> He was chosen by the frog sennin before his birth, that is cannon fact.
> 
> 
> Worked his ass off? You mean LOL KYUUBIHAX.
> ...



Not even one line of your rebuttals are worth any further discussion. 

You are not even trying man.


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## OGkush (Jan 3, 2013)

he's not perfect, but he's a good writer. How else would Naruto be so popular if it was shit?



But no, no...you dislike how certain parts of the story unfolded, therefore he is shit - because fuck logic.


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## Klue (Jan 3, 2013)

OGkush said:


> he's not perfect, but he's a good writer. How else would Naruto be so popular if it was shit?



For the same reason that so many terrible music artist sell so many records.

People like shit.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 3, 2013)

OGkush said:


> he's not perfect, but he's a good writer. How else would Naruto be so popular if it was shit?
> 
> 
> 
> But no, no...you dislike how certain parts of the story unfolded, therefore he is shit - because fuck logic.



This argument isn't logical you know. Popularity is not synonymous with quality.


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## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Naruto's coming was predicted before his birth, and even his conception. The matter of him being the destined child was not his choice to make. He was born into, and destined for, greatness.
> 
> 
> 
> *He told Raikage he was the savior.*




In what context? If I remember correctly, it was more of a "I will not go back on my word, for that is my ninja way." where his promise to find a way to create a "perfect peace" was his word, and by saying that he is the savior  is a way to show that to the stubborn Raikage.


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## Ernie (Jan 3, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Popularity is not synonymous with quality.



And making a example between music and manga is also ridiculous. "People also like Justin Bieber"... Naruto became so great because it was and for me still is a very good manga. Except it. Justin Bieber became great because it's music was f*cking everywhere to hear... Naruto manga was not everywhere to be seen. 

And please... he did not say "I am the savior", Raikage asked if Minato was and Naruto answered "I dunno".


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## Epyon (Jan 3, 2013)

Eternity said:


> Not at all. Not even close. This is exactly what I just said in my big post. He never relied upon the prophecy, he never viewed himself as a savior at all.



I don't think he relies on the prophecy but I think he does view himself as the one who will save everyone (i.e. a savior). Itachi had to teach him about teamwork and believing in others. ITACHI. And then he still made that promise to Obito, saving he WILL not let Obito hurt a single one of his friends. He said that while his friends were scattered throughout a warzone was then surprised when it turned that maybe he wasn't ready to make that promise. I dunno what you would describe what he saw himself as that he would think he could win the war without a single causality singlehandedly but savior is as good a title as any in my book.



> His friends have been with him from the start!



Iruka was with him from the start. And I guess the Third Hokage. That's about it.


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## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> This argument isn't logical you know. Popularity is not synonymous with quality.


And quality is not synonymous with your opinon. Quality if in most cases in the eyes of the beholder.


----------



## Bruce Wayne (Jan 3, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> That's you attempting to get around a clear plot point, one of which is the big draw in his speeches as of late as him being the chosen savior. A prophecy of any sort related to Naruto's achievements only makes him a tool of destiny, that acts in accordance to a path already laid out for him. Even his pedigree paves the way of his path to greatness, I mean Minato? OK, we all knew that but now his mom was apart of some prestigious clan related to the Senju but more awesome, and his coming predicted by Ninja God? Come on.



The Raikage stated that their savior Minato was dead. Then Naruto stated even though Minato is dead, Naruto was entrusted to continue Minato's mission. The chosen child was really Minato who gave birth to Naruto.

Now, on chapter 572, the sage predicted that someone would guy the tailed beast. He predicted, he never said it would happen.


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## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Epyon said:


> I don't think he relies on the prophecy but I think he does view himself as the one who will save everyone (i.e. a savior). Itachi had to teach him about teamwork and believing in others. ITACHI. And then he still made that promise to Obito, saving he WILL not let Obito hurt a single one of his friends. He said that while his friends were scattered throughout a warzone was then surprised when it turned that maybe he wasn't ready to make that promise. I dunno what you would describe what he saw himself as that he would think he could win the war without a single causality singlehandedly but savior is as good a title as any in my book.



True, but not because of the prophecy. He want to be a savior. When Neji died, he almost gave into Obito's taunts, when Hinata slapped him and TnJ'd him, he realized that he can still save people, but he has to remember that people are bound to die in a conflict like this, but that it shouldn't stop him from doing what he belives is right.



> Iruka was with him from the start. And I guess the Third Hokage. That's about it.



And Hinata. And then later, Sakura, Kakashi, Tsunade, etc, etc. He grew more bonds as time went on.  And those are the ones that have helped him throughout.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 3, 2013)

Eternity said:


> In what context? If I remember correctly, it was more of a "I will not go back on my word, for that is my ninja way." where his promise to find a way to create a "perfect peace" was his word, and by saying that he is the savior  is a way to show that to the stubborn Raikage.



His predecessors, and his father specifically, entrusted him to be the savior.



Eternity said:


> And quality is not synonymous with your opinon. Quality if in most cases in the eyes of the beholder.



That just sounds defensive. If it was just my opinion it'd mean nothing at all, it's the growing number of people that begin to see it as I do that means something. This doesn't mean Kishi is a BAD writer, but it does mean his flaws are becoming more noticeable. However, I never made the argument that my opinion is the objective truth to begin with. In contrast to the person you're trying to stick up for.


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## Hossaim (Jan 3, 2013)

Eternity said:


> Not even one line of your rebuttals are worth any further discussion.
> 
> You are not even trying man.



>Critizes me for not rebutting
> Doesn't rebutt. 

Fanboy logic. When someone presents logical arguments against yours, laugh at them or put them on the ignore list.

No wonder you people like Naruto.


----------



## Bruce Wayne (Jan 3, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> >Critizes me for not rebutting
> > Doesn't rebutt.
> 
> Fanboy logic. When someone presents logical arguments against yours, laugh at them or put them on the ignore list.
> ...



This is very ironic.


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## Hossaim (Jan 3, 2013)

-Dragon- said:


> This is very ironic.



My ignore list is empty except for Supersaiyanman because at last sight his sig was so large vertically it took out half the page.


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## Klue (Jan 3, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> And making a example between music and manga is also ridiculous. "People also like Justin Bieber"... Naruto became so great because it was and for me still is a very good manga. Except it. Justin Bieber became great because it's music was f*cking everywhere to hear... Naruto manga was not everywhere to be seen.
> 
> And please... he did not say "I am the savior", Raikage asked if Minato was and Naruto answered "I dunno".



The poster I responded to attempted to discredit negative opinions by pointing out how popular Naruto is - comparing music with manga was far from the focal point of my post.

"Popularity is not synonymous with quality."


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## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> His predecessors, and his father specifically, entrusted him to be the savior.
> 
> 
> 
> That just sounds defensive. If it was just my opinion it'd mean nothing at all, it's the growing number of people that begin to see it as I do that means something. This doesn't mean Kishi is a BAD writer, but it does mean his flaws are becoming more noticeable. However, I never made the argument that my opinion is the objective truth to begin with. In contrast to the person you're trying to stick up for.



The fact that a growing number doesn't like Naruto doesn't mean it's getting worse, it could very well mean that those people simply doesn't like the way the manga is going. Calling it bad writing for that reason is...well, unreasonable.



Hossaim said:


> >Critizes me for not rebutting
> > Doesn't rebutt.
> 
> *Fanboy* logic. When someone presents *logical arguments* against yours, laugh at them or put them on the ignore list.
> ...



Logical? Not really? For example, one of your so called "logical" arguments, that Naruto is strong because of the kyuubi is like saying an athlete is good because he takes drugs to enhance his performance. Yeah, it helps, but he still have to work his damn ass off to get up among the top athletes.

All your rebuttals are equally silly, and therefore I chose not to discuss with you anymore. It leads nowhere and it takes up time I could be used for more productive things.


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## Epyon (Jan 3, 2013)

Eternity said:


> And Hinata.



Hinata was not there with him from the start. They didn't hang out. They didn't talk. Sasuke and his reluctant exchanging of looks were a bigger thing back then.


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## Shivers (Jan 3, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> And making a example between music and manga is also ridiculous. "People also like Justin Bieber"... Naruto became so great because it was and for me still is a very good manga. Except it. Justin Bieber became great because it's music was f*cking everywhere to hear... Naruto manga was not everywhere to be seen.".



Are you explaining his level of popularity by the amount of exposure he gets?

If you are, I can assure you, Naruto gets more than enough exposure too. It's a flagship title of Jump and gets plenty of advertising. It has several movies based off it and an ongoing anime. By the standards of a manga, it's pretty nearly 'everywhere to be seen'. 

It didn't get to the level of popularity it has by word-of-mouth.


----------



## Ernie (Jan 3, 2013)

Naruto started as a little manga while Kishi was writing it at an outside appartement in Tokyo. If he was a bad writer, he would still be sitting there. Naruto became so popular because Kishi is a good writer. He has its flaws, wich is normal when you are writing a manga for more then 10 years already.


----------



## Forces (Jan 3, 2013)

Louis-954 said:


> By Shounen standards? No, he is just fine. Oda and Togashi > Kishi though.



There is no such thing as Shounen standards. A mangaka can do whatever he wants in any demographic (as long as it's not law breaking). If Kishi is fine as a shounen writer, he is a fine writer in general.


----------



## Escargon (Jan 3, 2013)

I didnt like the first chapters at all but when Kakashi got introduced the manga turned out to be interesting and i loved it.

Dont want to diss Naruto but a manga just focusing on Kakashi would be interesting.


----------



## Ernie (Jan 3, 2013)

Everyone has it's favorite character, so why would people like me (Naruto-fans) have a problem with that. 

Me no Hossaim.


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## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Epyon said:


> Hinata was not there with him from the start. They didn't hang out. They didn't talk. Sasuke and his reluctant exchanging of looks were a bigger thing back then.



Maybe not from chapter 1, but remember the exam.


----------



## Epyon (Jan 3, 2013)

Eternity said:


> Maybe not from chapter 1, but remember the exam.



Behind their fear of him Temari and Kankuro probably loved Gaara all along too. Sasuke had plenty of girls that loved him. Nagato never lost Konan. Obito knew exactly where Minato was if he wanted to talk. Hinata admiring Naruto from a distance is not what saved Naruto from going the way of the villians. The length Iruka went to for him did.


----------



## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Epyon said:


> Behind their fear of him Temari and Kankuro probably loved Gaara all along too. Sasuke had plenty of girls that loved him. Nagato never lost Konan. Obito knew exactly where Minato was if he wanted to talk. Hinata admiring Naruto from a distance is not what saved Naruto from going the way of the villians. The length Iruka went to for him did.



When he was young, yes (and the third was equally supporting), but Naruto had plenty of oportunities to turn evil through all the hardships he went through later in life. He was saved by the intervention of his friends. Through his bonds.


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## Shivers (Jan 3, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> Naruto started as a little manga while Kishi was writing it at an outside appartement in Tokyo. If he was a bad writer, he would still be sitting there. Naruto became so popular because Kishi is a good writer. He has its flaws, wich is normal when you are writing a manga for more then 10 years already.



Naruto became so popular because it relocated all the familiar shounen tropes and stereotypes in a new and interesting setting. People like more of the same, with a twist.


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## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Naruto became so popular because it relocated all the familiar shounen tropes and stereotypes in a new and interesting setting. People like more of the same, with a twist.


And why did the shounen tropes and stereotypes get famous in the first place?


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## Shivers (Jan 3, 2013)

That's a rather broad question. I wouldn't be able to answer it without a _lot_ of research, consideration, and general digging.


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## Epyon (Jan 3, 2013)

Eternity said:


> When he was young, yes (and the third was equally supporting), but Naruto had plenty of oportunities to turn evil through all the hardships he went through later in life. He was saved by the intervention of his friends. Through his bonds.



Naruto won't just go evil at the drop of a hat. In fact, Sasuke wouldn't even go evil at the mere drop of a hat. Minato (Pain Invasion) and Hinata (Just now), were the only ones dealing with legit moment such as that and people are still having trouble to accept the latter. Sasuke needed to be out and out tortured by Itachi (someone who by birth was in a unique position to twist his feelings) since he was 7 to get to a place where he'd leave Konoha. Naruto wouln't get to such a place for less. He's not Obito.


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## Ernie (Jan 3, 2013)

****When he was young, yes (and the third was equally supporting), but Naruto had plenty of oportunities to turn evil through all the hardships he went through later in life. He was saved by the intervention of his friends. Through his bonds.****

Again totally agree with this, Eternity.


----------



## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Epyon said:


> *Naruto won't just go evil at the drop of a hat*. In fact, Sasuke wouldn't even go evil at the mere drop of a hat. Minato (Pain Invasion) and Hinata (Just now), were the only ones dealing with legit moment such as that and people are still having trouble to accept the latter. Sasuke needed to be out and out tortured by Itachi (someone who by birth was in a unique position to twist his feelings) since he was 7 to get to a place where he'd leave Konoha. Naruto wouln't get to such a place for less. He's not Obito.



Didn't say/mean that either. I mean that the fact that he has grown up with these bonds, helped him stay positive and on the right path. It is the bonds that helped him in part 1, and it is the bonds that helped him in part 2. 

Minato and Hinata helped him with the extreme cases, but all of his friends have helped him in one way or the other.


----------



## Yagami1211 (Jan 3, 2013)

Miiami said:


> He doesn't even know how to make a Heroine,where's good writing in here? Look at fairy tail,bleach,one piece all females get their time in there. Good writer would obviously know what to do with his heroine.



That's hardly a proof.

Like I say, most of the time Mangakas just write females as males and add boobs later.


----------



## Talia00 (Jan 3, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> 1. Opinion, me, as a male, like how they are drawned.  Past year Ino and Hinata really had some important roles!



As another user here stated, one of the few females to have an important role in this manga is Hinata, but let's not kid ourselves. It was short-lived, especially compared to what other males have done in this manga.



> 2. Some are, some not. It is normal in a long-running manga. Even in Berserk, wich is brilliant for the rest.



Correction,

MOST are, some are given some time to shine but are soon thrown back to being wall-paper. 


There is no "some are some not". You can't have some for both, it's MOST.


> 3. I like that "Child of Destiny" stuff, because I saw that coming while reading part 1 and from the moment I knew Minato is Naruto's father. I totally do not see Naruto as a Messiah but as someone who felt hatred for so many years, trained hardcore like a boss and eventually everyone started to accept him findally. He now needs to save all those asses. (It is not like someone clapped in his hands and suddenly he was a hero, no, he worked hard for it and he had to convince so many people)



...

Except it's not about Naruto's lineage. Kishimoto could of saved himself from contradicting himself by having Naruto "No matter who my father is, what I have in my body, etc I would of found a way to end the cycle of hatred" or whatever.



> 4. Long time ago that I saw something of that 'obsession' actually. And also before that I had no problem about it, only that hyperventilation was bullshit.




So you're basically saying at this point that you had no problem with Naruto obsessing over a guy that wanted to kill him at one time and was close to doing it? 




Eternity said:


> Gantz? You mean that sorry excuse for manga where people are killed in the most freaky ways imaginable?




Wow, way to have the point fly completely over your head Eternity. 

But *yeah*, I mean Gantz. 



> Where these side characters are killled off after a few chapters and the main character get "the love of his life" time and time again, who then get killed? And that has no relateble plot, changing focus like a kitten on katnip? That Gantz?



Where the side characters are given believable human personalities, time to develop, you find out ABOUT their history, and they either fade away or yes, die off. 

I like how you have to completely bash Gantz, because you can't accept the fact that Gantz in a way develops their characters more.

No, let's go through any MOVIE or book made/written in history, and say that any story in which a lot of side characters die, then the development was done "Terribly".  Yeah, lets 



> And what is this about Naruto not focusing on side characters? Why, because tenten doesn't get a thousand panels in the war? Or because some fodder didn't have more meaning?







> And the very fact that you compare Naruto, a shounen manga, meant for young japanese male teenagers to Gantz, a manga I am pretty sure is meant for mentally deranged scohciopaths that want to see entrails and blood on every panel, makes me wonder.



Flaming now? 

I won't even respond to this. 



> I mean, that's like saying any contemporary fantasy/crime/drama book is aweful writing because it doesn't have the same fame and stature like high litterature, such as Shakespears works and the like.
> 
> It's silly.




Again, you're missing the point.


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## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

No I fully understood the point, I just disagree with you. I just thought it was funny how you used Gantz as an example, when it is overall such a bad manga in my opinion (I seem to be forced to add IMO because people have on more then one time only seen that I use "bad" in my posts, and ignored the rest)

The characters might be more _realistic_ at times, but as I said, I dissagree that they are done any better.


EDIT: Oh, and if it seemed like I was flaming you with the "mentally deranged scohciopaths", I wasn't. I was showing my dislike for the manga itself. Try to take what I say with a pinch of salt, I was more or less being ovrdramatic to show a point.


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## Talia00 (Jan 3, 2013)

Eternity said:


> No I fully understood the point, I just disagree with you. I just thought it was funny how you used Gantz as an example, when it is overall such a bad manga in my opinion (I seem to be forced to add IMO because people have on more then one time only seen that I use "bad" in my posts, and ignored the rest)



Right, you see this would work as in, an attempt to make me see that you were just "getting on me because I used Gantz as an example"

But A LOT of your post in this thread has been defending the Naruto manga, and the development. Even if you didn't agree with me regarding Gantz, you would STILL admit "Yeah, the side characters are handled pretty terribly."



> The characters might be more _realistic_ at times, but as I said, I dissagree that they are done any better.



Not "at times", the author of the manga stated he kept realism in the manga for a reason. He doesn't have them say "I need to survive this to show everyone that the cycle of hatred can be broken!" or anything cliche/corny like that. 



> EDIT: Oh, and if it seemed like I was flaming you with the "mentally deranged scohciopaths", I wasn't. I was showing my dislike for the manga itself. Try to take what I say with a pinch of salt, I was more or less being ovrdramatic to show a point.



No, you were flaming me and anyone who liked Gantz by making huge generalizations. This is like someone calling someone  in an argument an"asshole" while telling them "Come on, I wasn't really insulting you. Take what I say with a grain of salt."


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## Ernie (Jan 3, 2013)

With al the respect Talia, but this discussion has really been hold like 12 times only this last 6 months. Excuse me if I am a little bit lazy now and don't react now.  Else people see me writing the same stuff over and over again...

Btw, I totally agree with Eternity, so.


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## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Talia said:


> Right, you see this would work as in, an attempt to make me see that you were just "getting on me because I used Gantz as an example"
> 
> But A LOT of your post in this thread has been defending the Naruto manga, and the development. Even if you didn't agree with me regarding Gantz, you would STILL admit "Yeah, the side characters are handled pretty terribly."
> 
> ...




No I wasn't flaming you. And if it seem like I did, I apologize.  


You are right that some side characters could be handled better in Naruto, but I don't agree that the fact that they where makes Kishi a bad wirter. Besides, many of the side characters in Gantz are just as poorly made and poorly used. The feel of it might be more realistic, but it is your opinion that they are better. Realistic =/= better. You personally might like them more for whatever reason, but thats all it is. Your personal opinion.

I actually liked Gantz at first, but all blood and no direction made me abandon it after a while.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 3, 2013)

Eternity said:


> He isn't chosen. A prophecy is as good as the ones believing it. He isn't chosen by some higher power to become the savior, he put it upon himself to do what others couldn't. He chose for himself to be the one to stop this in the way he believes is right, because nobody else seem to be able to.
> 
> He is working his ass off to follow his way of the ninja. His choice, his hard work.
> 
> ...



Exactly. The prophesy in Naruto isn't like the prophesy in Harry Potter, just to pick an example. It's not a prophesy that gives a list of requirements and at the end only two babies fit the description.

I wrote something in . I forgot to mention Minato in it, because he was already dead.


> I don't think that Naruto is destined to be the saviour. It's more that Naruto's words and actions have set him on a path that will allow him to become the saviour. The sloppy narrative doesn't make that really clear. I just notice that Nagato, Obito, Sasuke and Naruto all fit that prophesy to a certain extent; that Nagato and Naruto are the only ones that were trained by Jiraiya; and that Naruto is the only one that will lead to a better future. This all parallels the idea about how the Rikudo Sage and the Rinnegan appeared: that in a troubled time *someone* will rise up to make things right.


Jiraiya's choice of a student, and that student's choice would determine the future of the world. It's a prophesy that includes choice. Nagato, Minato and Naruto were all students of Jiraiya and each one made choices.

I still think that the prophesy was primarily used to put Naruto into the position of a Senju, without actually making Naruto a Senju (at that time). But my thought on the prophesy itself have evolved too. The prophesy basically predicts that *someone* will take up the responsibility to save the world.

It's essentially a self-fulfilling prophesy. A prophesy that probably influenced Jiraiya, Nagato, and Minato a lot more than Naruto. Naruto is just doing stuff because it's his ninja way, and because it's something his teacher and his father entrusted him with.


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## Ernie (Jan 3, 2013)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> It's essentially a self-fulfilling prophesy. A prophesy that probably influenced Jiraiya, Nagato, and Minato a lot more than Naruto. Naruto is just doing stuff because it's his ninja way, and because it's something his teacher and his father entrusted him with.


*THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Since my English is not that well to express myself easily all the time, I thank you and Eternity to say exactly what I want to say. Also about the Naruto-Sasuke bond (will of fire vs will of hatred), very well explained. It is not an obsession, I never felt it like that while reading. (only the hyper... thing was stupid)

(from part 1)


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## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Shivers said:


> That's a rather broad question. I wouldn't be able to answer it without a _lot_ of research, consideration, and general digging.



And yet, you said:

_"Naruto became so popular because it relocated all the familiar shounen  tropes and stereotypes in a new and interesting setting. People like  more of the same, with a twist."_

With, I would imagine, not a lot of research, consideration, or general digging.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 3, 2013)

Epyon said:


> I don't think he relies on the prophecy but I think he does view himself as the one who will save everyone (i.e. a savior). Itachi had to teach him about teamwork and believing in others. ITACHI. And then he still made that promise to Obito, saving he WILL not let Obito hurt a single one of his friends. He said that while his friends were scattered throughout a warzone was then surprised when it turned that maybe he wasn't ready to make that promise. I dunno what you would describe what he saw himself as that he would think he could win the war without a single causality singlehandedly but savior is as good a title as any in my book.
> 
> Iruka was with him from the start. And I guess the Third Hokage. That's about it.



Iruka was with Naruto from the start of the manga and shortly before (basically Naruto's last year at the Academy). The Third Hokage is important to Naruto because he was the only authority figure before Iruka to acknowledge Naruto. Teuchi and his daughter Ayami probably acknowledged Naruto before Iruka, but that's a bit speculative.

About those two scenes you mention: please keep in mind that those scenes are more about Itachi and Obito respectively than they are about Naruto. In fact, they're OOC for Naruto...or they should be if Naruto had a consistent characterisation. Itachi had a change of heart after he died and now knows he can't do everything by himself. And Obito has to witness someone in a similar situation as his own, yet make a different choice than Obito did.

About the prophesy, see my post above.


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## Kusa (Jan 3, 2013)

Yagami1211 said:


> That's hardly a proof.
> 
> Like I say, most of the time Mangakas just write females as males and add boobs later.



No,they give them also feminine traits.Women are not from a different world,it's not really hard to write a female character.Kishi has proved this by himself.In the beginning of Shippuden many people started to like Sakura.

Moreover,even if other mangakas don't know how to write a female character,atleast they try.Kishi doesn't even try just take look at Sakura.


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## Shivers (Jan 3, 2013)

Eternity said:


> And yet, you said:
> _"Naruto became so popular because it relocated all the familiar shounen tropes and stereotypes in a new and interesting setting. People like more of the same, with a twist."_
> With, I would imagine, not a lot of research, consideration, or general digging.



Yes...yes, I did.

And?


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## Rinoa (Jan 3, 2013)

I think for the first work as a mangaka, he's going quite good.
Of course there are always some things that we disagree on the work of an author, but he's working about 11, 12 years already with Naruto? And continues to have success ...
If he was so bad, we'd be not even to be asking or answering this question, he would remain an unknown or Naruto would have already lost all the popularity, and this forum wouldn't have the name it has.


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## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Yes...yes, I did.
> 
> And?



And that means you can't really know if  Naruto became poplar because of it. You made your own argument invalid with your second argument.


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## Talia00 (Jan 3, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> With al the respect Talia, but this discussion has really been hold like 12 times only this last 6 months. Excuse me if I am a little bit lazy now and don't react now.  Else people see me writing the same stuff over and over again...
> 
> Btw, I totally agree with Eternity, so.



Concession accepted. 



Eternity said:


> No I wasn't flaming you. And if it seem like I did, I apologize.




You were. 




> You are right that some side characters could be handled better in Naruto, but




A LOT of the side characters can be handled A LOT more better.


> I don't agree that the fact that they where makes Kishi a bad wirter.



It's one of his many failures, that contributes to him being a terrible writer.


> Besides, many of the side characters in Gantz are just as poorly made and poorly used.



Your opinion, I'm not going to debate it.


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## Forces (Jan 3, 2013)

"Hurr Kishi does not handle unimportant characters better, such a terrible writer!"


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## Yagami1211 (Jan 3, 2013)

Villain said:


> No,they give them also feminine traits.Women are not from a different world,it's not really hard to write a female character.Kishi has proved this by himself.In the beginning of Shippuden many people started to like Sakura.
> 
> Moreover,even if other mangakas don't know how to write a female character,atleast they try.Kishi doesn't even try just take look at Sakura.



Feminine Traits ? Physical you mean ? ( Body shape, clothes and stuff )
Cause that's what I mean too. Remove that from the female character, and there's nothing left differencing it from a male chracter.

Mental Feminine Traits ? Sorry I don't see.

Exemple of good female character for me is Yuria from HNK, remove her physical traits, and you can still guess it's a woman. If you can't, it means the character is not actually written as female.

People doesn't like Sakura because of what she is, but because of her role in the story.

It's true for males, to some extent.
Naruto want to peep on Sakura, eats a lot etc .. thoses are ( in manga ) most of the time male traits.


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## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Then I apologize.



Talia said:


> Concession accepted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And about the bolded parts. How can you say that it is one of many faliures and call him a terrible writer as if it is a fact, and then go on to say that what I said is just an opinion. I know fully well it's just my opinion, that much has been crystal clear through almost all my posts so far.

Your opinion = bad writing

My opinion = good writing

Both being simply opinions.

My opinion is that SOME of his characters could be used more and used better, and the same goes for my opinion of Gantz. I don't think Gantz is any better, or any worse in the use of side characters, just different. But I dislike Gantz for its excessive use of mindbogglingly sick violence among other things that already mentioned.


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## Shivers (Jan 3, 2013)

Eternity said:


> And that means you can't really know if Naruto became poplar because of it. You made your own argument invalid with your second argument.


Well, no, I thought you'd understand that my first statement was an educated guess, and the point of my second statement was that any guess I made _wouldn't_ be educated, but...okay...?

I mean, 'can't really know' - can anyone? How would that even work? I'd have to survey at least two-thirds of everyone who watches or follows Naruto for a definitive answer. 

But my answer as to the reason for its popularity is the best one there is, because it takes into account both what the manga does and what people want, and have always wanted.


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## Talia00 (Jan 3, 2013)

Eternity said:


> And about the bolded parts. How can you say that it is one of many faliures and call him a terrible writer as if it is a fact, and then go on to say that what I said is just an opinion. I know fully well it's just my opinion, that much has been crystal clear through almost all my posts so far.
> 
> Your opinion = bad writing
> 
> ...



Because the argument isn't about Gantz. It's about me explaining why I believe Kishi is a terrible writer, which you began bashing Gantz, flaming people who read/liked Gantz, while defending Kishimoto.

Kishi is a TERRIBLE writer not only because of this, and the fact that you are willing to make this your top priority and not go after anything else I've said such as how he portrays women, how he contradicts himself, how he RUINED his main character goes to show that you really do not want to engage on that field.


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## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Well, no, I thought you'd understand that my first statement was an educated guess, and the point of my second statement was that any guess I made _wouldn't_ be educated, but...okay...?
> 
> I mean, 'can't really know' - can anyone? How would that even work? I'd have to survey at least two-thirds of everyone who watches or follows Naruto for a definitive answer.
> 
> But my answer as to the reason for its popularity is the best one there is, because it takes into account both what the manga does and what people want, and have always wanted.



Think about this then. I became interested in manga because of Naruto. Not because it did something new with the shounen genre (as I didn't even know what shounen was before started reading it, and I have not really read any manga prior to that.), but because I connected with Naruto, I liked the characters, and  I enjoyed the story. And if you think about it, that is exactly what makes any entertainment good in most peoples eyes. That they enjoy it.

Also, can you not see the contridiction in your first paragraph? If any guess you make won't be educated, how can your first statement be educated? 

That leads me to believe that you are not that great at explaining, or your logic is flawed.


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## Shivers (Jan 3, 2013)

Eternity said:


> Also, can you not see the contridiction in your first paragraph? If any guess you make won't be educated, how can your first statement be educated?
> That leads me to believe that you are not that great at explaining, or your logic is flawed.


That's possible because I'm guessing about different things. I'm neither bad at explaining, nor flawed in logic. You just seem to be missing fairly obvious differences.

It's possible for me to guess with accuracy what makes Naruto popular because it has strong similarities to other mangas before it which have become popular with comparable quality of writing. These similarities are the tropes and stereotypes of shonen manga.

I can't guess why these tropes and stereotypes are themselves popular, but to guess why something that has them is popular, is one magnitude removed. And that's perfectly possible.


----------



## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Talia said:


> Because the argument isn't about Gantz.



Never said it was, never implied it was. You started it by comparing the two, I rebutted by saying that I disagree with the comparison.



> It's about me explaining why I believe Kishi is a terrible writer, which you began bashing Gantz, flaming people who read/liked Gantz, while defending Kishimoto.



I already apologized for flaming. And telling you that is was not my intention. If you want to keep calling me back on it, I am not going to respond to it.



> Kishi is a TERRIBLE writer not only because of this



In your opinion.



> , and the fact that you are willing to make this your top priority and not go after anything else I've said such as how he portrays women



Some strong, some weak, some useless, some angry, some shy, some outgoing, etc, etc... 

I think he is going a good job to be honest. 



> , how he contradicts himself,


Any examples? And even if he does, that doesn't make him a bad writer, it makes him a human able to make mistakes. Remember that he has to both draw and write one chapter each week, and that his story has been going for over 10 years.  



> how he RUINED his main character goes to show that you really do not want to engage on that field.



Your. O.P.I.N.I.O.N.

I don't believe he ruined his main character. (my opinion)



Shivers said:


> That's possible because I'm guessing about different things. I'm neither bad at explaining, nor flawed in logic. You just seem to be missing fairly obvious differences.
> 
> It's possible for me to guess with accuracy what makes Naruto popular because it has strong similarities to other mangas before it which have become popular with *comparable quality of writing*. These similarities are the tropes and stereotypes of shonen manga.
> 
> I can't guess why these tropes and stereotypes are themselves popular, but to guess why something that has them is popular, is one magnitude removed. And that's perfectly possible.



From this explanation, I agree that your logic is not flawed, but the way you formulated it makes me still believe you explained it badly.

Now then, to the bolded part. What makes you qualified to call it comparable quality of writing to these other mangas? And even if the writing style is comparable, what makes you qualified to call it bad?


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## Shivers (Jan 3, 2013)

What would make anyone qualified? Who, in your view, is qualified?


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 3, 2013)

He can write a great story but he sucks with romance, if he had the touch with romance that Takashi does, he'd be easily one of the best manga writers around.


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## Eternity (Jan 3, 2013)

Shivers said:


> What would make anyone qualified? Who, in your view, is qualified?



Nobody. That is exactly why I go on about opinions. A manga that to some people is amazing, can be called shit by someone else. It's all about perception and opinion. I love the Naruto manga, I think its great. I might agree wtih opinions that some parts are not of my liking, but thats it. 

If you want to measure naruto to the technical side of writing, then it might be lacking in SOME areas, as any book/manga/any form of written entertainment does, but even then, it's not that bad.


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## Shivers (Jan 3, 2013)

Eternity said:


> Nobody. That is exactly why I go on about opinions. A manga that to some people is amazing, can be called shit by someone else. It's all about perception and opinion. I love the Naruto manga, I think its great. I might agree wtih opinions that some parts are not of my liking, but thats it.
> If you want to measure naruto to the technical side of writing, then it might be lacking in SOME areas, as any book/manga/any form of written entertainment does, but even then, it's not that bad.



Well, I find that reductionist and liable to (a) lead nowhere and (b) stifle discussion.


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## Talia00 (Jan 3, 2013)

Eternity said:


> Never said it was, never implied it was. You started it by comparing the two, I rebutted by saying that I disagree with the comparison.



And you called me out on it, and began to go on a huge rant while ignoring the rest of my post. So you won't able to defend against my other claims, right? Not a surprise, there is a reason why you still haven't attacked them. 




> I already apologized for flaming. And telling you that is was not my intention. If you want to keep calling me back on it, I am not going to respond to it.



I'm bringing up what you did in order to remind you what's happened so far in our "debate". 




> In your opinion.



So are we going to start stating the obvious now?



> Some strong, some weak, some useless, some angry, some shy, some outgoing, etc, etc...



Shows on Nick JR have a wide variety of characters as well. You missed my point, yet again.



> I think he is going a good job to be honest.







> Any examples?



Child of destiny. And what did Naruto tell Neji and "prove" to him in part 1?

He's also out right lied in interviews.

"This year, I will focus on Kakashi and Sakura more"

That didn't happen. In fact, I believe two years went by and then he actually took more credibility FROM Sakura.

He's screwed over characters deaths by bringing them back from the dead, and having them die again/continiously because he knew for a fact he had no basis for the war besides white zetsu. He brought all of them back, and COMPLETELY destroyed their deaths and what meaning they had to them and how they were executed.



> And even if he does, that doesn't make him a bad writer, it makes him a human able to make mistakes. Remember that he has to both draw and write one chapter each week, and that his story has been going for over 10 years.



Not when a lot of it has to do with key elements of the story. It's the creator of Batman suddenly turning Batman into a drug addict, rapist that kills male prostitutes. 




> Your. O.P.I.N.I.O.N.
> 
> I don't believe he ruined his main character. (my opinion)




Still stating the obvious.

and lol

So Naruto wasn't ruined when he ran/obsessed over Sasuke, and still wanted to chase after him after he tried to kill him? 

Or spend 2 1/2 years training to bring him back? Or when he continuously thought of Sasuke day in and day out to the point it was obvious mentally disturbing obsession? Or when he wanted to involve himself with Sasuke's revenge? Or when he selfishly wanted to keep Sasuke from doing something Naruto had no business in?


----------



## hisoga (Jan 3, 2013)

.





> Literature is not completely subjective.
> If literature were totally subjective,
> then nobody would be able to tell the difference
> between amateur fanfiction and Shakespeare or
> ...


                           .


----------



## QianQian (Jan 3, 2013)

Hard to believe that this is a ninja war. For me, this is the last straw. I cannot connect with the characters anymore.


----------



## Foxve (Jan 3, 2013)

Same generic cringe worthy answers posted by some as their way of saying why the manga is "amazing". While calling everyone else a hater and that their opinions are petty and baseless. 

This Manga is far from the best. As to the topic, if he was a bad writer, part 1 wouldn't have been so good (though it did have a few flaws) . However, when the majority (if not literally everyone who reads Naruto) agree that part 1 is great, then some say part 2 sucks, that should be looked at. Not just dissmised as "lol hater opinion".


----------



## SageEnergyMode (Jan 3, 2013)

Kishi is a fantastic writer, and anyone who suggests that he's somehow an average or not very good writer, doesn't know what they're talking about. Kishi has, on more than one occasion, taken some pretty tough subject matter that in most cases would be problematic to explain, but he always manages to handle it with a very and often underappreciated, degree of skill.


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## Foxve (Jan 4, 2013)

SageEnergyMode said:


> *Kishi is a fantastic writer, and anyone who suggests that he's somehow an average or not very good writer, doesn't know what they're talking about.* Kishi has, on more than one occasion, taken some pretty tough subject matter that in most cases would be problematic to explain, but he always manages to handle it with a very and often underappreciated, degree of skill.



Thanks for proving my point.


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## ch1p (Jan 4, 2013)

Kishimoto isn't bad, but he isn't great either. I tend to think he was great in part I (I could even like the Tsunade "filler" arc) and the beginning of part II. The zombie arc sucked (granted, editors rushed), pain arc sucked (granted, editors meddled), iron country was interesting but awkwardly handled, war arc was peculiar, so many wasted opportunities. Chosen One is shit though.


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## Kage (Jan 4, 2013)

Lelouch71 said:


> Kishi has good ideas but bad execution.



all that needs to be said.


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## Mangekkio (Jan 4, 2013)

I think he is good, but he has definitely had bad moments. One of the worst, in my opinion, being the incomplete backstory of Obito/Tobi. 

It's as if Kishi was talking through Obito


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## Ernie (Jan 4, 2013)

In his last interview Kishi said he at this moment has a lot of fun writing Naruto because there are so many possibilities.


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## Escargon (Jan 4, 2013)

Mangekkio said:


> I think he is good, but he has definitely had bad moments. One of the worst, in my opinion, being the incomplete backstory of Obito/Tobi.
> 
> It's as if Kishi was talking through Obito



I dont want to hate, sound negative or argue, but this flashback just makes me think that this manga is a joke. He had years of planning it, thats what makes this a big joke.

A successfull reveal would be like this: "AHHH its him i didnt think about it, but it makes sense. Holy shit."

Obito reveal is: "What the fuck, oh my.. oh no not him. How is this even possible?"

As i explained before, i can continue reading this manga because im ignoring this awful story. I am ignoring Obito and his shity flashback and thats how i can enjoy this manga again.


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## Ernie (Jan 4, 2013)

*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 



Hater! 
















No, I have no problems with that. I trust le Kishi.


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## sparrowjake (Jan 4, 2013)

no, he is awesome!!


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## Escargon (Jan 4, 2013)

I mean seriously Kishi had YEARS of planning, he should have revealed Tobi to be Shishui or something "new" so he could have a better time explaining the flashback.

If you read the Tobi identity threads, the big majority said no to Obito because they didnt think that Kishi would be that bad.


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## Ernie (Jan 4, 2013)

Escargon said:


> I mean seriously Kishi had YEARS of planning, he should have revealed Tobi to be Shishui or something "new" so he could have a better time explaining the flashback.
> 
> If you read the Tobi identity threads, the big majority said no to Obito because they didnt think that Kishi would be that *surprising*.


Fixed it for you. 

I totally had no problem with Tobi = Obito because I saw that one coming miles ago.


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## Escargon (Jan 4, 2013)

Wouldnt Tobi be like four during that time he took over the mist? 

I must be wrong here but didnt Obito himself create the bloody mist village? And that was before Zabuza went on a rampage as a small child and Zabuza is around the same age as Obito.


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## vagnard (Jan 4, 2013)

Part 1 was brilliant and one of the best shounen series I have read. It was cliche but very well executed... specially Land of the Waves arc and Chunnin exams. Part 2 has been terrible. Kishimoto created a very good concept and setting but fucked up the character development in Part 2 neglecting his main character for entire arcs just to try to fix the whole mess with a terrible deus ex machina plot with Rikudo Sennin and the feud between Uchiha and Senju. 

Like Lelouch said... the execution of the manga currently is terrible. I can't speak for others but the reason I can keep reading this is because I'm nostalgic of Part 1 and I want to see the ending of that manga. But I couldn't care less about the current storyline, the war, Naruto's TNJ, Sasuke's haxx and idiocy, Obito's terrible character development and Madara's lack of one. 

So in my opinion Kishimoto is a mediocre writer that survives thanks to the popularity of Part 1 when the concept of the manga was still fresh. 

Also the OP doesn't seem to care about the opinions of others and just keep spouting how the manga is good and people are just pissed off because his favourite character lacks spotlight.... guess what... That's NOT THE REASON. Just because you can't conceive the manga turning into a mess it doesn't mean others are forced to like the manga or can't state their opinions in a forum (that's the purpose of a forum in first place)


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## Escargon (Jan 4, 2013)

vagnard said:


> So in my opinion Kishimoto is a mediocre writer that survives thanks to the popularity of Part 1 when the concept of the manga was still fresh.



This is not unique. SAW for example survived because of the first movies.


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## Ernie (Jan 4, 2013)

Part 2 is already more then 5 years and still millions of people read it. He is not a bad writer else we would not read this. 

I know I don't read something that I find bullshit. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



And again, the Saw example is terrible




I really can't understand how people dare to type bullshit as 'he is a bad writer' and still read it fanaticly each week and coming each day here to discuss about the manga. 

This manga is great, Kishi is a great writer who sometimes made the wrong descisions (like the most writers, except the one from Berserk hehe). Simple.


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## Eternity (Jan 4, 2013)

Talia said:


> And you called me out on it, and began to go on a huge rant while ignoring the rest of my post. So you won't able to defend against my other claims, right? Not a surprise, there is a reason why you still haven't attacked them.



If I didn't "attack" your other claims, it must have been because I didn't think they where good enough to be "attacked". Feel free to come with your other claims again, and I will be happy to "attack" them.






> I'm bringing up what you did in order to remind you what's happened so far in our "debate".


And the point of that would be what? Create a stalemate? Make me feel bad, despite having apologized? It does nothing to add to this discussion.




> So are we going to start stating the obvious now?


Seems like we have to.



> Shows on Nick JR have a wide variety of characters as well. You missed my point, yet again.


Maybe you should rethink the way you express your point then. And not just point out that I missed your point.



>


 Really mature.



> Child of destiny. And what did Naruto tell Neji and "prove" to him in part 1?


Naruto didn't come up with the child of destiny prophecy, did he? He was right about what he told Neji. Besides, the two are not mutually exclusive. Anything else?



> He's also out right lied in interviews.
> 
> "This year, I will focus on Kakashi and Sakura more"
> 
> That didn't happen. In fact, I believe two years went by and then he actually took more credibility FROM Sakura.


What does that have to do with contraditions in the manga? He can change his mind all he want. Besides, he might have said "I will try to focus" or "I might focus" or something like that, and things got lost in translation, like it often does. Not a manga contradiction.



> He's screwed over characters deaths by bringing them back from the dead, and having them die again/continiously because he knew for a fact he had no basis for the war besides white zetsu. He brought all of them back, and COMPLETELY destroyed their deaths and what meaning they had to them and how they were executed.


For you, yes. For me, he brougth back people and gave them another meaning. Brigning them back didin't destroy their death or meaning for me. For example, I loved how Asuma's return made Chouji grow some balls.

That is my view on it. Your view on it is different. Not more right. Not more wrong. Different.



> Not when a lot of it has to do with key elements of the story. It's the creator of Batman suddenly turning Batman into a drug addict, rapist that kills male prostitutes.


Key elements? Would you like to elaborate, or should I just take your word for it? (I won't just take your word for it)





> Still stating the obvious.


And still I apparantly have to.



> and lol
> 
> So Naruto wasn't ruined when he ran/obsessed over Sasuke, and still wanted to chase after him after he tried to kill him?
> 
> Or spend 2 1/2 years training to bring him back? Or when he continuously thought of Sasuke day in and day out to the point it was obvious mentally disturbing obsession? Or when he wanted to involve himself with Sasuke's revenge? Or when he selfishly wanted to keep Sasuke from doing something Naruto had no business in?


No.

It made him more believable as a human being. He wanted to stop Sasuke from getting lost in darkness. I am quite sure that most people would try to help a friend if they began changing into something bad.

That it "ruined" him as as a character is your opinion. Your own views of how he should be didn't happen, so you think he is ruined because of that.


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## Ernie (Jan 4, 2013)

> No.
> 
> It made him more believable as a human being. He wanted to stop Sasuke from getting lost in darkness. I am quite sure that most people would try to help a friend if they began changing into something bad.
> 
> That it "ruined" him as as a character is your opinion. Your own views of how he should be didn't happen, so you think he is ruined because of that.



Amen to that. 

Like Jiraiya the Great was thinking: "I guess you are right Naruto, you may never abandon a brother". It is one of the big main points of this manga since THE START OF IT. I have read part 2 right after part 1 and did not see ANY difference.

The same with people who say "part 1 was about hard work, part 2 about prophecy bullshit" c'monn I get sick of such stupid posts. Part 1 the stuff between Jiraiya and Naruto was all about Jiraiya teaching Naruto the correct way of the ninja. He believed that Naruto would be the one that now for real could finish his work. It was already in part 1! If Naruto did not what Jiraiya wanted, I would be mad and with me the very most readers...


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## Epyon (Jan 4, 2013)

> For example, I loved how Asuma's return made Chouji grow some balls.



Since when did Chouji lack balls? He gave his life to help his frienda and kill his enemy in Part 1. He had the guts to fight Pain and Kakuzu head on. He continued carrying out his tasks during the Pain Invasion even when he thought his father was dead.



> It made him more believable as a human being. He wanted to stop Sasuke from getting lost in darkness. I am quite sure that most people would try to help a friend if they began changing into something bad.
> 
> That it "ruined" him as as a character is your opinion. Your own views of how he should be didn't happen, so you think he is ruined because of that.



That was then. Now Sasuke has already killed a Hokage, attacked every other Kage, tried to kill Sakura and Kakashi and made his life's purposes destroying Konoha and that's not even bringing his overall attidute during the Team 7 Reunion into this. Trying to bring that guy back to village is hardly more believable as a human being.


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## Ernie (Jan 4, 2013)

Epyon said:


> Since when did Chouji lack balls? He gave his life to help his frienda and kill his enemy in Part 1. He had the guts to fight Pain and Kakuzu head on. He continued carrying out his tasks during the Pain Invasion even when he thought his father was dead.



Chouji still was a little cry baby sometimes... Now he is a f*cking boss.


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## Epyon (Jan 4, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> Chouji still was a little cry baby sometimes... Now he is a f*cking boss.



I'm sure he'll still be a cry baby sometimes.


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## Eternity (Jan 4, 2013)

Epyon said:


> Since when did Chouji lack balls? He gave his life to help his frienda and kill his enemy in Part 1. He had the guts to fight Pain and Kakuzu head on. He continued carrying out his tasks during the Pain Invasion even when he thought his father was dead.



Wrong choice of words on my side. 

In all those instances, he had a curtain fear about him. He was lacking. Yeah, he fought them, but there was something about him that just didn't feel right.

When he then met Asuma as an Edo, he faltered. He was afraid to hurt his old sensei. But through that encounter, and Asuma's words, he stripped off his fear, and much of his fat along with it. 

Showing just how strong he really was. How much stronger he could have been before, if his fear didn't stop him. Remember hos he and his father attacked the two paths of pain. Choiji missed, while his father didn't. He was lacking. Something, I think, slowed him.


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## Eternity (Jan 4, 2013)

Epyon said:


> That was then. Now Sasuke has already killed a Hokage, attacked every other Kage, tried to kill Sakura and Kakashi and made his life's purposes destroying Konoha and that's not even bringing his overall attidute during the Team 7 Reunion into this. Trying to bring that guy back to village is hardly more believable as a human being.



Depends on what kind of human you are. If you are a human being with excess of love for his friends, and a conviction of not boing back on his word, what he is doing is more then believable.



Epyon said:


> I'm sure he'll still be a cry baby sometimes.



I am not.


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## Epyon (Jan 4, 2013)

Eternity said:


> He was lacking. Something, I think, slowed him.



The fact that he was weaker physically maybe? Shikamaru still isn't remotely as smart as his dad, Ino doesn't have the ninjutsu her dad those. Kakashi has only just recently started looking like he'll surpass the Sannin like his dad does and he's 31. Chouji being less impressive then Chouza and Kakashi in those fights hardly means something is _wrong _with him. He's a Chuunin. That he matters and survived should be impressive enough. He's the only one that walked away from God Realm at all.


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## Eternity (Jan 4, 2013)

Epyon said:


> The fact that he was weaker physically maybe? Shikamaru still isn't remotely as smart as his dad, Ino doesn't have the ninjutsu her dad those. Kakashi has only just recently started looking like he'll surpass the Sannin like his dad does and he's 31. Chouji being less impressive then Chouza and Kakashi in those fights hardly means something is _wrong _with him. He's a Chuunin. That he matters and survived should be impressive enough. He's the only one that walked away from God Realm at all.




That was one of the examples. Like I (and EliteRamen) said, he was fearful (a crybaby). Now his entire demeanor has changed. And that is what I loved with Asuama's return.

And he didnt walk away from God Realm. God Realm though everyone there was dead, and left. Then he stood up, the mechanic pain attacked him Kakashi saved him, and he ran.


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## Epyon (Jan 4, 2013)

Eternity said:


> That was one of the examples. Like I (and EliteRamen) said, he was fearful (a crybaby). Now his entire demeanor has changed. And that is what I loved with Asuama's return.
> 
> And he didnt walk away from God Realm. God Realm though everyone there was dead, and left. Then he stood up, the mechanic pain attacked him Kakashi saved him, and he ran.



Sorry I meant Asura Realm. But nevertheless, everyone beside Kakashi and Chouza had already gotten a fodder death. Saying that there's something wrong and lacking with Chouji that has to be fixed and changed about him because he didn't equal the Jounins is a little much.


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## Rill (Jan 4, 2013)

Eternity said:


> No I wasn't flaming you. And if it seem like I did, I apologize.
> 
> 
> You are right that some side characters could be handled better in Naruto, but I don't agree that the fact that they where makes Kishi a bad wirter. Besides, many of the side characters in Gantz are just as poorly made and poorly used. The feel of it might be more realistic, but it is your opinion that they are better. Realistic =/= better. You personally might like them more for whatever reason, but thats all it is. Your personal opinion.
> ...


 What? I didnot read all thread about Gantz, but I totally disagree with you. You know the good writer is the writer that fully showes development of at least the *main* character, but the best writer is the writer that shows even development of the side characters. What did show Gantzs mangaka.At first, Kei was the guy who donnot give a shit about somebody(accept boobs). But we see his development after he found love,friends. He became different person.
And what we see in Naruto. At first he was just a boy who believed in his dream and the peace in whole world. And what now?? We have the same picture. He just screams all the time-"I will be Hokage and noone dies and etc."I donnot see his development, i hope Kishi will fix it.
And by the way yes realistic=better, because Kei is an average guy in our society(lets face the truth -part of us donnot care about the others except may be their family and friends) and we can learn how to be better(it sounds too sugar))).Yes may be the side character in Gantz  is not so developmened, but Kishi forgot about the characters who supposed to be the main(Sakura), and about  side character too.
And I donnot think that Kishi is bad writer because if he was so, this manga wouldnot be so popular.But i think  sometimes he forgets about mental factors of some character. And he really donot know anything about women


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## Eternity (Jan 4, 2013)

Rill said:


> What? I didnot read all thread about Gantz, but I totally disagree with you. You know the good writer is the writer that fully showes development of at least the *main* character, but the best writer is the writer that shows even development of the side characters. What did show Gantzs mangaka.At first, Kei was the guy who donnot give a shit about somebody(accept boobs). But we see his development after he found love,friends. He became different person.
> And what we see in Naruto. At first he was just a boy who believed in his dream and the peace in whole world. And what now?? We have the same picture. He just screams all the time-"I will be Hokage and noone dies and etc."I donnot see his development, i hope Kishi will fix it.
> And by the way yes realistic=better, because Kei is an average guy in our society(lets face the truth -part of us donnot care about the others except may be their family and friends) and we can learn how to be better(it sounds too sugar))).Yes may be the side character in Gantz  is not so developmened, but Kishi forgot about the characters who supposed to be the main(Sakura), and about  side character too.
> And I donnot think that Kishi is bad writer because if he was so, this manga wouldnot be so popular.But i think  sometimes he forgets about mental factors of some character. And he really donot know anything about women



Yes, you are free to disagree. Isn't that great? To have different opinions is what makes us different. Nothing wrong with that. 

It's when people, in effect, say "I am right, you are wrong." when it's a matter of opinion that I get a bit worked up.


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## Yakkai (Jan 4, 2013)

Eternity said:


> Yes, you are free to disagree. Isn't that great? To have different opinions is what makes us different. Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> It's when people, in effect, say "I am right, you are wrong." when it's a matter of opinion that I get a bit worked up.



Really? You might want to have a word with the OP then.


----------



## Rill (Jan 4, 2013)

Eternity said:


> Yes, you are free to disagree. Isn't that great? To have different opinions is what makes us different. Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> It's when people, in effect, say "I am right, you are wrong." when it's a matter of opinion that I get a bit worked up.



Oh,welll...Thanks for your explanation...I donnot Know about it...


----------



## Pirao (Jan 4, 2013)

Epyon said:


> Since when did Chouji lack balls? He gave his life to help his frienda and kill his enemy in Part 1. He had the guts to fight Pain and Kakuzu head on. He continued carrying out his tasks during the Pain Invasion even when he thought his father was dead.
> 
> 
> 
> That was then. Now Sasuke has already killed a Hokage, attacked every other Kage, tried to kill Sakura and Kakashi and made his life's purposes destroying Konoha and that's not even bringing his overall attidute during the Team 7 Reunion into this. Trying to bring that guy back to village is hardly more believable as a human being.



Danzo wasn't Hokage, he was merely the Hokage candidate, but was never confirmed as Hokage, actually. Just wanted to point that out.


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## Eternity (Jan 4, 2013)

Yakkai said:


> Really? You might want to have a word with the OP then.



Why? He has his own thoughts on this, I have mine.


----------



## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 4, 2013)

Eternity said:


> Nobody. That is exactly why I go on about opinions. A manga that to some people is amazing, can be called shit by someone else. It's all about perception and opinion. I love the Naruto manga, I think its great. I might agree wtih opinions that some parts are not of my liking, but thats it.
> 
> If you want to measure naruto to the technical side of writing, then it might be lacking in SOME areas, as any book/manga/any form of written entertainment does, but even then, it's not that bad.



I'm sorry, but not all opinions are created equal. Opinions are still grounded by reality; they are based on facts, observations, experience and so on. Opinions range from "completely subjective" to "completely objective".



Shivers said:


> Well, I find that reductionist and liable to (a) lead nowhere and (b) stifle discussion.



It's the same problem with current news media: they give both sides equal opportunity to state their opinion with no regard to the *quality* of each opinion.



hisoga said:


> Literature is not completely subjective.
> If literature were totally subjective,
> then nobody would be able to tell the difference
> between amateur fanfiction and Shakespeare or
> ...



A good reply. But did you loose a source reference or something? Just curious.



ch1p said:


> Kishimoto isn't bad, but he isn't great either. I tend to think he was great in part I (I could even like the Tsunade "filler" arc) and the beginning of part II. The zombie arc sucked (granted, editors rushed), pain arc sucked (granted, editors meddled), iron country was interesting but awkwardly handled, war arc was peculiar, so many wasted opportunities. Chosen One is shit though.



When I'm feeling generous I'll argue that Kishimoto is a talented writer and artist. And he did show that he is talented up to the end of the Hidan and Kakuzu arc. What gets Kishimoto into trouble is the fact that he's not good at juggling the various required elements of a story within the time constraints of having to publish on a weekly schedule.

When I'm not feeling generous I'll argue that Kishimoto created these problems for himself. He should know that he only has a certain amount of time each week, but instead of limiting the complexity of his story to fit the time constraints, he simply sacrifices elements of his story like: characterisation, pacing, logic and so on.

Kishimoto seems to be good at the creative, right-side-of-the-brain stuff, but he seems to have problems with the logical, left-side-of-the-brain stuff. Unfortunately for Kishimoto, a mangaka needs to be good at both.



vagnard said:


> Part 1 was brilliant and one of the best shounen series I have read. It was cliche but very well executed... specially Land of the Waves arc and Chunnin exams. Part 2 has been terrible. Kishimoto created a very good concept and setting but fucked up the character development in Part 2 neglecting his main character for entire arcs just to try to fix the whole mess with a terrible deus ex machina plot with Rikudo Sennin and the feud between Uchiha and Senju.
> 
> Like Lelouch said... the execution of the manga currently is terrible. I can't speak for others but the reason I can keep reading this is because I'm nostalgic of Part 1 and I want to see the ending of that manga. But I couldn't care less about the current storyline, the war, Naruto's TNJ, Sasuke's haxx and idiocy, Obito's terrible character development and Madara's lack of one.
> 
> ...



Up until the end of the Immortal Zombies arc, Part 2 was more than decent. That's not to say it didn't have problems (almost ignoring Sasuke, but putting a look-a-like into the story is worthy of at least one facepalm moment). Danzo was an element that could have explored the grittier parts of the ninja world.

It all went to hell when he decided to give Sasuke equal relevance to the plot again. The other side of that coin is of course that Kishimoto should have thought about the initial plot of Part 2 a bit better. Naruto saving Sasuke from Orochimaru clearly wasn't going to give Sasuke the same relevance to the plot as Naruto had.

Starting with the Mary Sue Sasuke arc, Kishimoto began sacrificing everything for the plot: the rivalry between Naruto and Sasuke with as background the rivalry between the Senju and the Uchiha. One arc after another, important villains like Orochimaru, Pain and Danzo were removed from the story. Characters like Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura changed personalities when the plot demanded it. In the end, the Uchiha took over the manga. You can now divide Part 2 of the manga into Naruto Shippuuden and Uchiha Shippuuden.


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## Suzy (Jan 4, 2013)

He's a good at what he do if he keeps you watching/reading manga every week.


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## Rill (Jan 4, 2013)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> I'm sorry, but not all opinions are created equal. Opinions are still grounded by reality; they are based on facts, observations, experience and so on. Opinions range from "completely subjective" to "completely objective".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


+1
You know if the whole manga will be Uchiha Shippuden, it will be better and more interesting.  Because the main character (Naruto) is too predictable and primitive.


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## Daxter (Jan 4, 2013)

Eh I'm supremely late to this thread, but I know I'll be writing more than a sentence or two so I apologise in advance for any typos I miss correcting, if any - I've a faulty keyboard with missing letters. Ghettoz stylez it is.

To loosely address the OP, as I haven't read through most posts yet, Kishimoto in my very humble opinion is a brilliant... conceptualist (if that is a word I can use for this, unsure) - not so much a brilliant writer. 

I hate having to compare anything to J.K Rowling, but I can't think of a better example at the moment.
I think the Harry Potter books are total rubbish. I thought they were so at age nine (that's the part when Tolkien comes in), and my opinion hasn't changed since. That said, I have given Rowling credit where due - her ideas are very good, and the popularity of the franchise speaks to that. I was able to enjoy Harry Potter finally when it became a film for that reason - the world she's dreamed up is enchanting and well designed for the most part, and was actually enjoyable when words were subtracted (his honourable Chris Columbus, my thanks). 

Too bad someone else didn't write her books in actuality.

I think of Kishimoto similarly, noting the difference between author an mangaka. For the most part they're comparable for their concepts and their sense of direction; both have a brilliant imagination, and a penchant for atmosphere and worlds and even premises, but I would say neither have strengths in execution (though Kishimoto still moreso than Rowling, personally). Sometimes, largely during mid-late part II, I've wished someone else would take all that is good about Naruto off Kishimoto's hands and write it in a way that would better honour the concept, too.

Kishimoto has created a great many characters with potential, and an universe that captures people so very easily. It is not accurate to say he's a shitty writer, as we're here because of our love of his work, past or present, for one reason or another. _Something_ along the way has enamoured people so, thus he must have done something right. I think he has a great many good ideas, and a wonderful imagination that _should_ be put to work, but I think either he or his editors are cracked, or have become so along the way, because many turns and choices in his work do not reflect a well versed writer. I sometimes think he's running what he created into the ground, and I wonder if it's consciously or not.

One would think a writer gets more seasoned with age, but to witness some of them backtracking is both surprising an a bit sad.


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## durtycheese (Jan 4, 2013)

well since he keeps wrting about naruto and his stupid ass ninja way and changing peoples heart... yea he kinda sucks.


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## Talia00 (Jan 4, 2013)

Eternity said:


> If I didn't "attack" your other claims, it must have been because I didn't think they where good enough to be "attacked". Feel free to come with your other claims again, and I will be happy to "attack" them.



Either read my other claims and attack them, or you are basically conceding. You're literally nit-picking because you knew for a fact I was correct.

But if you won't quote me, concession accepted. 





> And the point of that would be what? Create a stalemate? Make me feel bad, despite having apologized? It does nothing to add to this discussion.



No, I'm bringing it up to remind you what has happened so far since you seem to not remember how we got to where we were at.



> Seems like we have to.



Oh, ok then. It doesn't add anything to the debate nor disclaim anything I have said but:

This is a sentence. 



> Maybe you should rethink the way you express your point then. And not just point out that I missed your point.



Or maybe you should stop being intentionally difficult, and realize that having "Shy, happy, mad, excited" characters really isn't that hard to do in terms of making a story. 

Not having them as wall paper, saying cliche things, having literally no character development for  a lot of them shows how he screws over his characters. But of course, I WOULD have to point this out to you. 



> Really mature.



Says the person who was just telling other people that if they read Gantz they had something mentally wrong with them. 


> Naruto didn't come up with the child of destiny prophecy, did he? He was right about what he told Neji. Besides, the two are not mutually exclusive. Anything else?




Naruto also didn't create the manga now did he?



Let me point this out for you, so you don't try to deter away from the point that is directly in front of you.

*Author supports/implies that no one has their destiny written in front of them*

part 2

*Author implies main character is the child of destiny*



> What does that have to do with contraditions in the manga? He can change his mind all he want. Besides, he might have said "I will try to focus" or "I might focus" or something like that, and things got lost in translation, like it often does. Not a manga contradiction.




No, he specifically stated "This year I will focus more on Sakura and Kakashi"

Which was a lie. Quit trying to put words in his mouth by hoping that he wouldn't out right lie to the public then later say

"Oh, Sakura? I completely forgot about her."

But let me guess "Come on, he's human!"

So are we going to keep saying "He's human" towards every screw up he has had in his manga? Or are we going to see this manga for what it is and realize he probably just doesn't give a damn anymore, and wants it to end already?



> For you, yes. For me, he brougth back people and gave them another meaning. Brigning them back didin't destroy their death or meaning for me. For example, I loved how Asuma's return made Chouji grow some balls.



Zabuza's and Haku's death, completely crapped on.

Deidara, did he even get sealed/captured?

Itachi's death, crapped on.

Nagato's death, crapped on within like 1-2 chapters.

Need I go on?




> That is my view on it. Your view on it is different. Not more right. Not more wrong. Different.



Stating the obvious again, right?


> Key elements? Would you like to elaborate, or should I just take your word for it? (I won't just take your word for it)



I'm not going to elaborate on how Naruto suddenly becoming the "child of destiny" goes against his character in part 1. I _shouldn't _have to. 



> And still I apparantly have to.



Waste your time then, I couldn't care less.



> No.



I'm not going to even debate with you about Naruto then. If you honestly found nothing wrong/mentally wrong with Naruto through out part 2, then I'm not even going to try to climb that mountain.


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 4, 2013)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> I'm sorry, but not all opinions are created equal. Opinions are still grounded by reality; they are based on facts, observations, experience and so on. Opinions range from "completely subjective" to "completely objective".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To put it simple, Sasuke's too much relevance is what brought down the manga's quality. I would like to point out the Kishi was actually developing the Konoha 11 before Sasuke appeared.


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## vagnard (Jan 4, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> Part 2 is already more then 5 years and still millions of people read it. He is not a bad writer else we would not read this.
> 
> I know I don't read something that I find bullshit.
> 
> ...



It doesn't matter how many times you insist the manga is good. People have different opinions. Deal with it. 

The fact people just came here every week to complain is proof the manga quality has dropped. There is a large fanbase that increased its disgust with the manga due the bad developments. There are many reasons people keep reading this manga: it takes no time at all, just for lulz due Kishimoto's incompetence (just see the Bleach effect if you don't believe it where people keep reading because it turned so bad that it was funny) and most important... most people just want to see the ending of something that started well even if turned into shit in the middle of the way. 

Also you are wrong about Kentaro Miura from Berserk being perfect. People have been complaining during ages after the Falcon Millenium arc. I know a large Berserk fanbase that is disgusted with the fairies, wizards and all the magical stuff leaving character development like Golden Age behind. The difference is even if Berserk isn't the same as before is still a good manga... unlike Naruto that started as a good manga and turned into a running joke .



NarutoShion4ever said:


> Up until the end of the Immortal Zombies arc, Part 2 was more than decent. That's not to say it didn't have problems (almost ignoring Sasuke, but putting a look-a-like into the story is worthy of at least one facepalm moment). Danzo was an element that could have explored the grittier parts of the ninja world.
> 
> It all went to hell when he decided to give Sasuke equal relevance to the plot again. The other side of that coin is of course that Kishimoto should have thought about the initial plot of Part 2 a bit better. Naruto saving Sasuke from Orochimaru clearly wasn't going to give Sasuke the same relevance to the plot as Naruto had.
> 
> Starting with the Mary Sue Sasuke arc, Kishimoto began sacrificing everything for the plot: the rivalry between Naruto and Sasuke with as background the rivalry between the Senju and the Uchiha. One arc after another, important villains like Orochimaru, Pain and Danzo were removed from the story. Characters like Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura changed personalities when the plot demanded it. In the end, the Uchiha took over the manga. You can now divide Part 2 of the manga into Naruto Shippuuden and Uchiha Shippuuden.



Sorry but I disagree. While Part 2 wasn't THAT bad at the beginning the decline was there from the first arc. Just look how people complained about Gaara's lame ressurrection, Naruto's poor performance during his introduction, the lame Sai arc, Team Gai off panel battles, etc...

In fact now the manga is equally Senju, Uchiha, Naruto wank (everyone else is crap under Kishimoto's eye) and it's still terrible and even worse than before. Naruto has become a Mary Sue even greater than Sasuke ever was, transforming everyone into his bitches with the power of TNJ and he is gaining new powers up every chapter. 

The real problem is the fact this manga lost it's essense... the ninja aspect was replaced for a shitty prophecy that went against all the themes of Naruto (like fighting against fate). The fights aren't exciting anymore... it's just a bunch of kame hame ha without strategy or skill, the villians motivations are shit and no character except a small group receive development at all to the point the main heroine haven't done something revelant since the beginning of part 2. Akatsuki's original plan about controlling the ninja system through war and conflict was way better than this lame Matrix rip off "Eye of the Moon Plan". The dialogue is repetitive and lame, the characters makes no sense anymore (Obito who was Naruto's clone wants to destroy the world because he was cockblocked?.... seriously?). 

In general the manga lost its direction. Neither Sasuke, Naruto, Madara, or Teuchi could save it anymore.


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## hcheng02 (Jan 4, 2013)

vagnard said:


> It doesn't matter how many times you insist the manga is good. People have different opinions. Deal with it.
> 
> The fact people just came here every week to complain is proof the manga quality has dropped. There is a large fanbase that increased its disgust with the manga due the bad developments. There are many reasons people keep reading this manga: it takes no time at all, just for lulz due Kishimoto's incompetence (just see the Bleach effect if you don't believe it where people keep reading because it turned so bad that it was funny) and most important... most people just want to see the ending of something that started well even if turned into shit in the middle of the way.
> 
> Also you are wrong about Kentaro Miura from Berserk being perfect. People have been complaining during ages after the Falcon Millenium arc. I know a large Berserk fanbase that is disgusted with the fairies, wizards and all the magical stuff leaving character development like Golden Age behind. The difference is even if Berserk isn't the same as before is still a good manga... unlike Naruto that started as a good manga and turned into a running joke .



Berserk is frankly overrated, as its typical dark fantasy shit you can get from plenty of other series. People are just awed by the art and gore and somehow translates that to super hype. Plus the plot hasn't been going anywhere for years. Guts is still wandering around killing random shit while Griffith leaves him in the dust with whatever Evil Messiah crap he's doing. Its been that way for years now, and it doesn't help that Miura is one of the most unprofessional writers I have ever seen. Seriously, that guy makes like 5-6 chapters a year and that's considered to be super-productive from him. His fans make excuses that his art requires all that time, but its nonsense. Claymore has about the same quality of art and that author pumps out a chapter a month.

Its more like some fans are butt hurt that their favorite character isn't a gary stu who breaks all the story themes and kicks everyone's ass anymore (cough* Sasuke tards* cough)


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## vagnard (Jan 4, 2013)

hcheng02 said:


> Berserk is frankly overrated, and the plot hasn't been going anywhere for years. Guts is still wandering around killing random shit while Griffith leaves him in the dust with whatever Evil Messiah crap he's doing. Its been that way for years now, and it doesn't help that Miura is one of the most unprofessional writers I have ever seen. Seriously, that guy makes like 5-6 chapters a year and that's considered to be super-productive from him. His fans make excuses that his art requires all that time, but its nonsense. Claymore has about the same quality of art and that author pumps out a chapter a month.



Berserk is still a good manga but I agree it's very overrated. Currently I prefer Vinland Saga, Vagabond, Monster or Pluto above Berserk. I disagree with Claymore having the same drawing quality. All Claymore characters look the same and the backgrounds are non-existant. The only detailed creatures are the awakened ones but still it lacks the huge detail of Miura. (I still prefer the art of Miura during Lost Children arc... current characters looks too stiff)



hcheng02 said:


> Its more like some fans are butt hurt that their favorite character isn't a gary stu who breaks all the story themes and kicks everyone's ass anymore (cough* Sasuke tards* cough)



I think Current Naruto also fits the Mary Sue category perfectly. For me the main problem is the current premise of the manga is too outrageous compared with what we where presented in first place. This prophecy, spamming bijuudamas, everyone having dojutsus, Rikudo Sennin as answer for everything... has become lazy writing. Instead strategy and skill we have energy attacks, instead character development for villians we have Obito, instead creating interesting dynamics between villians and main characters with sense of danger we just get Naruto TNJ everyone and their moms saying repetitive crap. 

Kishimoto creates a war without any real impact and then when he finally decides to kill someone he just picks Neji... a guy who haven't received development in 300 chapters and nobody cares. At last Kishimoto could have balls to kill Kakashi, Killer Bee or Gai who have been active players during the war.


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 4, 2013)

vagnard said:


> I think Current Naruto also fits the Mary Sue category perfectly. For me the main problem is the current premise of the manga is too outrageous compared with what we where presented in first place. This prophecy, spamming bijuudamas, everyone having dojutsus, Rikudo Sennin as answer for everything... has become lazy writing. Instead strategy and skill we have energy attacks, instead character development for villians we have Obito, instead creating interesting dynamics between villians and main characters with sense of danger we just get Naruto TNJ everyone and their moms saying repetitive crap.
> 
> Kishimoto creates a war without any real impact and then when he finally decides to kill someone he just picks Neji... a guy who haven't received development in 300 chapters and nobody cares. At last Kishimoto could have balls to kill Kakashi, Killer Bee or Gai who have been active players during the war.



I like how you guys think Naruto goes around preaching his ideals and beliefs. The only person he TNJ was Nagato, the rest of the people he tried to failed or he never did it.

I'm pretty sure BM Naruto was using tactics with those energy waves.

Like NarutoShion said, Kishi messed up when he gave Sasuke too much plot relevance which pushed Naruto out of ht spotlight for Arcs. Kishi was doing fine at the beginning of Part 2(excluding the naruto training).

Though I do agree that the war has been underwhelming. That's probably because they are only fight two people.


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## Eternity (Jan 4, 2013)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> I'm sorry, but not all opinions are created equal. Opinions are still grounded by reality; they are based on facts, observations, experience and so on. Opinions range from "completely subjective" to "completely objective".



I am well aware it that, but so far, most of the arguments I have seen have been opinions lacking any basis in facts. Also, most observations and experiences differ from person to person, because their perception is different. Most rules about writing (not all, ill give you that) are created through people with similar perception of what is good and bad writing. That much is quite clear. Just look at how much of these kind of rules are different from one time/place to another. (again, some stay persitient, some don't). Not to mention how languages and grammer changes just as much.



Talia said:


> Either read my other claims and attack them, or you are basically conceding. You're literally nit-picking because you knew for a fact I was correct.
> 
> But if you won't quote me, concession accepted.



Honestly.. you are basicly saying that if I don't find and respond to your claims, you are right about them. Doesn't work like that.

I might be lazy, in that I don't care to dig up your claims by myself, but that doesn't mean you are correct.




> No, I'm bringing it up to remind you what has happened so far since you seem to not remember how we got to where we were at.



I remember that I apogized for flaming you. Then you brought it up to remind me of something that has nothing to do with the actual discussion. So no, I do remember how we got where we are.



> Oh, ok then. It doesn't add anything to the debate nor disclaim anything I have said but:
> 
> This is a sentence.



The difference is that you seem oblivious to the fact that it is infact just your opinion, while I am fully aware that what you just said is a sentence. 





> Or maybe you should stop being intentionally difficult, and realize that having "Shy, happy, mad, excited" characters really isn't that hard to do in terms of making a story.
> 
> Not having them as wall paper, saying cliche things, having literally no character development for  a lot of them shows how he screws over his characters. But of course, I WOULD have to point this out to you.



I am not being intentinally difficult. The fact that you don't understand me doesn't automatically mean I am to blame. I might be a bit bad at explaining, but in this case, your inability to understand me is as much four mistake as it is mine. 

I already agreed with the fact that he could do better, but having room for improvement does, again, not mean he is a bad writer.



> Says the person who was just telling other people that if they read Gantz they had something mentally wrong with them.



I apologized, you rationalize your behavior by saying I did it too.



> Naruto also didn't create the manga now did he?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Part 1:
Author implies anyone can choose their own destiny.

Part 2:
Author implies that someone will save the world, Naruto's choices made him that someone. 

See how perception plays a big part here?






> No, he specifically stated "This year I will focus more on Sakura and Kakashi"
> 
> Which was a lie. Quit trying to put words in his mouth by hoping that he wouldn't out right lie to the public then later say
> 
> ...



If he said he would focus more on Sakura and Kakashi, andhe didn't, that means he changed his mind, simple as that. How is that a contradiction in the manga? Or better yet, how does changing ones mind about something mean he is a bad writer? It doesn't





> Zabuza's and Haku's death, completely crapped on.
> 
> Deidara, did he even get sealed/captured?
> 
> ...



You can go on if you like, it's not going to change the fact that I don't agree with you on it. I like what he did.




> Stating the obvious again, right?
> 
> 
> I'm not going to elaborate on how Naruto suddenly becoming the "child of destiny" goes against his character in part 1. I _shouldn't _have to.
> ...




Gotta go. Social life and all that. Seeya.


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## Ernie (Jan 4, 2013)

I also don't think there is anything wrong with Naruto at part 2, actually the very most share my opinion or you really take KL as an example?  

He is just doing the same as in part 1, he is loyal to his code, words and past master! I really can't understand how some people can't see that.

Anyway, Naruto was in part 1 my favorite character and still is in part 2. Love his attitude and his bond with Jiraiya was f*cking amazing! That Jiraiya... be alive will ya! (do it, Kishi ^^)


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## Foxve (Jan 4, 2013)

I like how it keeps being brought up that some "haters" are "just mad their fav character didn't get the spotlight". And then they say Kishi can't "focus on all the side/main characters" like it's an excuse. 

OP you don't care about others opinions and see them as haters. So I ask, why did you make this thread?


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## Jeαnne (Jan 4, 2013)

Kishi has his good and bad moments


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## 8 (Jan 4, 2013)

vagnard said:


> Sorry but I disagree. While Part 2 wasn't THAT bad at the beginning the decline was there from the first arc. Just look how people complained about Gaara's lame ressurrection, Naruto's poor performance during his introduction, the lame Sai arc, Team Gai off panel battles, etc...


what bothered me most about sand arc, is how incompetent the sand shonobi were portrayed to be.

we're supposed to believe they are a huge professional shinobi village. top five in their universe, on par with konoha. but then it turns out this 16 year old girl who just started studying medics > their medical department.

so, their kazekage just got abducted. they send a letter to konoha. in return konoha send a small team. this team takes 3 days to travel there. yet its this small konoha team whith a huge delay to get there, that track down and meet akatsuki. really? what the hell were the sand shinobi doing? isn't saving their kazekage top priority #1. out of their huge army of jounin they had no competent tracking shinobi at their disposal?

horible world building there. but that's kishi's tunnel vision for you. the focus was sakura, kakashi, naruto, granny. the rest of the world was ignored and humiliated.


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## Epyon (Jan 4, 2013)

> Part 1:
> Author implies anyone can choose their own destiny.
> 
> Part 2:
> ...



That's not perception. That's breaking it down too much.

The argument that Naruto won concerning destiny was presented by Neji. His basis was that he was destined to win because of his lineage as Hyuuga. When he failed Neji lamented that he should have seen it coming, Shadow Clones being Naruto's signature jutsu. Naruto then tells him Shadow Clones, now indeed the whole center of his fighting style, was his worst jutsu in the Academy. This impressed a lot upon Neji.

In Part 2 we learn that Naruto is himself the son of a very old and especially gifted clan as well as the Fourth Hokage. He was given the Kyuubi because his Uzumaki body made him powerful enough to have the best chance of surviving getting the Kyuubi infused in him and because Minato knew he would turn into a hero that would save Konoha. Jiraya also remarks that Naruto's fighting style is _just_ like his mothers (and in this he wasn't talking about Rasengan).

I feel there is irony here that Kishimoto might have wanted to avoid.



> Or better yet, how does changing ones mind about something mean he is a bad writer? It doesn't



Sakura is one of the four main characters of this manga, It has been a _very _long time since she has gotten the attention that would usually imply.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 4, 2013)

8 said:


> what bothered me most about sand arc, is how incompetent the sand shonobi were portrayed to be.
> 
> we're supposed to believe they are a huge professional shinobi village. top five in their universe, on par with konoha. but then it turns out this 16 year old girl who just started studying medics > their medical department.
> 
> ...



The 3 day travel was bad, I agree.

But quite a few of their ninja were killed weren't they? And they didn't know who they could trust, because of Sasori's spies, did they? And Konoha had experience with combating Suna-like poisons. In fact, Tsunade was better than Chiyo and Sakura was Tsunade's apprentice for 3 years. (It's the same thing with fighting Uchiha. Konoha's enemies have more experience in fighting Uchiha than Konoha ninja themselves. Which makes sense, because why would you spend effort on trying to fight your enemies?) I'm not trying to make it better than it is; just adding some context.



vagnard said:


> Berserk is still a good manga but I agree it's very overrated. Currently I prefer Vinland Saga, Vagabond, Monster or Pluto above Berserk. I disagree with Claymore having the same drawing quality. All Claymore characters look the same and the backgrounds are non-existant. The only detailed creatures are the awakened ones but still it lacks the huge detail of Miura. (I still prefer the art of Miura during Lost Children arc... current characters looks too stiff)



I liked Claymore right up to the point where the world was revealed to be bigger than their island...and that their island was nothing more than a huge experiment. I felt as if I had just swallowed the red pill without my consent.


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## Shivers (Jan 4, 2013)

> I liked Claymore right up to the point where the world was revealed to be bigger than their island...and that their island was nothing more than a huge experiment. I felt as if I had just swallowed the red pill without my consent.



I quite liked that twist, myself. It was world-shaking, but made total sense in the context of what had come before, and enabled the storyline to go in a new direction.

Of course, after that, it got bogged down in that fight with the Destroyer and those resurrected old single digits and I dropped it, but oh well.



> Sakura is one of the four main characters of this manga



Well, that's highly debatable. I've always thought Naruto and Sasuke alone were the mains.


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## Ernie (Jan 4, 2013)

Berserk > Claymore and I read both too.


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 4, 2013)

Foxve said:


> I like how it keeps being brought up that some "haters" are "just mad their fav character didn't get the spotlight". And then they say Kishi can't "focus on all the side/main characters" like it's an excuse.
> 
> OP you don't care about others opinions and see them as haters. So I ask, why did you make this thread?



What? 

When did I say/imply this?


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## Ernie (Jan 4, 2013)

-Dragon- said:


> What?
> 
> When did I say/imply this?



Relax, this is Konoha Library, remember...


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## Foxve (Jan 4, 2013)

-Dragon- said:


> What?
> 
> When did I say/imply this?



It wasn't you and i was talking about the hardcore supporters of the manga in general......


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## Takagou (Jan 4, 2013)

Euh...I think his writing is debateable, but it goes person to person.  This manga has spanned for well over a decade, and the oldies like me who have been following it since the chuunin exams have, well...AGED, for lack of a better word.  What I would find brilliant, mind blowing writing when I was 13 isn't the same as now at nearly 24. My interests have also swayed to literature that isn't appropriate for children to read, if you catch my drift   So in my mind, I can say that I loved EVERY aspect of part 1, but only certain archs of part 2, and this means the writer failed to do well.  But really, more than likely, *I'm* the one who changed, not Kishi.

Does that make sense? 

ANYWAYS.  Overall, I think kishi has done a fine job with the manga.  Some moments will stick with me forever (The ones involving my favorite characters, for instance ) and to me, that makes Kishi a great writer.  I certainly don't care about the most epic sailor moon battle to this day, but I still get shivers over the Hinata vs Neji battle, or when Shikamaru avenged Asuma.  Shikamaru vs Hidan will stick with me for life, because Shikamaru is my favorite male shinobi.

So....long post short; Kishi is only as good as he treats a persons favorite character


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## Addy (Jan 4, 2013)

you read 600+ chapters and you call him a bad writer?


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## Shivers (Jan 4, 2013)

There is no contradiction in that.

There are reasons for reading something even if you don't think it's particularly good. They could also have liked Part I and still be reading it for nothing but closure, as many are.


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## Ceasar Drake (Jan 4, 2013)

Forsaking and abandoning characters, idiotically convoluted storyline, anticlimactic battles, overpowering naruto. But I'll give him this, he has executed some deaths pretty nicely. Also the concepts introduced in the series are by far some of the most creative and well though out. Overall mediocre to good writer


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## Olivia (Jan 4, 2013)

Epyon said:


> That was then. Now Sasuke has already killed a Hokage, attacked every other Kage, tried to kill Sakura and Kakashi and made his life's purposes destroying Konoha and that's not even bringing his overall attidute during the Team 7 Reunion into this. Trying to bring that guy back to village is hardly more believable as a human being.



This was a horrid example because Naruto has since said he's not going to continue trying to bring Sasuke to the village. He even said that they would both die in their next meeting. In fact, Naruto hasn't even mentioned Sasuke since chapter 514, one hundred and one chapters ago. I can clearly see how Sasuke is _so_ deeply involved into Naruto's psychological being as of this point in the manga.


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## Ceasar Drake (Jan 4, 2013)

Addy said:


> you read 600+ chapters and you call him a bad writer?



Well that all depends on your definition of a good writer. Kishi captivates readers with the need of disclosure. Say you read 400 chapters and then started to despise the series and the way it was going. You'd think it was a waste to spen all that time on something you haven't finished, plus there are still some intriguing factors. Others may even continue reading because they like to rebuke the manga on forums such as these.


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## The Fool (Jan 4, 2013)

He's a great story teller and probably not a great writer. A trumps B.


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## Olivia (Jan 4, 2013)

Ceasar Drake said:


> Well that all depends on your definition of a good writer. Kishi captivates readers with the need of disclosure. Say you read 400 chapters and then started to despise the series and the way it was going. You'd think it was a waste to spen all that time on something you haven't finished, plus there are still some intriguing factors. Others may even continue reading because they like to rebuke the manga on forums such as these.



I've heard the argument about wanting to finish it, and I can agree with that. But what I don't agree with is reading it every week even though you hate it. Just read or find out all the loose ends once the manga ends, don't put yourself through 'horrible writing' every week. I mean, that's what I'm doing with One Piece since I can't stand to read it anymore after the Fishman Island Arc. (Yes I started the new arc, and it didn't grab my attention quickly)


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## Ceasar Drake (Jan 4, 2013)

Olivia said:


> I've heard the argument about wanting to finish it, and I can agree with that. But what I don't agree with is reading it every week even though you hate it. Just read or find out all the loose ends once the manga ends, don't put yourself through 'horrible writing' every week. I mean, that's what I'm doing with One Piece since I can't stand to read it anymore after the Fishman Island Arc. (Yes I started the new arc, and it didn't grab my attention quickly)



I don't even want to get into a One Piece naruto debate here but Fishman Island is much better than the opening arc of Part 2.
But i digress, people who continue to read it every week might be hoping for a change or something big enough to re-attract their...attraction, for lack of a better word. Also most people who use this excuse are just delusional and think he is a good writer but not without his flaws. I for one stopped reading after the obito reveal and just watched chapter reviews on youtube. But i still don't think he is a bad writer.


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## Epyon (Jan 4, 2013)

> But quite a few of their ninja were killed weren't they? And they didn't know who they could trust, because of Sasori's spies, did they? And Konoha had experience with combating Suna-like poisons. In fact, Tsunade was better than Chiyo and Sakura was Tsunade's apprentice for 3 years. (It's the same thing with fighting Uchiha. Konoha's enemies have more experience in fighting Uchiha than Konoha ninja themselves. Which makes sense, because why would you spend effort on trying to fight your enemies?) I'm not trying to make it better than it is; just adding some context.



We're talking about their inability to gather a 4-man team. Course when they fighting was _done_, it was revealed hundreds of Suna Shinobi had long since decided to depart Suna enmasse.



Olivia said:


> This was a horrid example because Naruto has since said he's not going to continue trying to bring Sasuke to the village. He even said that they would both die in their next meeting. In fact, Naruto hasn't even mentioned Sasuke since chapter 514, one hundred and one chapters ago. I can clearly see how Sasuke is _so_ deeply involved into Naruto's psychological being as of this point in the manga.



I suggest you reread 538 again. Maybe take a second look at the Naruto-Itachi meeting too.


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## Kusa (Jan 4, 2013)

Eternity said:


> He isn't chosen. A prophecy is as good as the ones believing it. He isn't chosen by some higher power to become the savior, he put it upon himself to do what others couldn't. He chose for himself to be the one to stop this in the way he believes is right, because nobody else seem to be able to.


The fact that there is a talk about a prophecy is bad enough.Some shinobis believe in it,but the worst thing is Naruto himself believes in it.The Naruto from part 1 would have never believed in a prophecy.Naruto works hard for it,which is great but he still didn't try to make it clear that if he brings peace,it won't be because of a prophecy but *only *because of his hard work.In fact he did the opposite,he showed Nagato that he believes in a book where the main character who is supposed to be him will bring peace to the world.





> And then we have his friends. The ones that always stood by his side. The reason he made it so far. Bonds.
> *
> Yes, bonds, the single most important thing in part 1. What part 1 was all about.* And what part 2 has been about as well. Not "the chosen one". That was, imo, only to strengthen our belief that he would succeed in the end. Not the main theme of part 2. The chosen one stuff only came up over 100 chapters into part 2. And has never been a driving force behind what Naruto has been doing.
> 
> ...



Sure the bond and friendship thing is the most important thing about the manga,but the 'there is no destiny thing'was also present in part 1,especially in the Naruto vs Neji fight.


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## Ceasar Drake (Jan 4, 2013)

Bonds are a bit cheesy and dare i say, gay. Like revolving your plot around it is fucking homo


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## Shivers (Jan 4, 2013)

Kishi isn't all that great with bonds, for someone who makes so much of them. 

I mean some of them he portrays wonderfully - like Naruto and Kushina.

But the pivotal friendship of this manga (Naruto and Sasuke) is ten different kinds of fucked-up, as well as stalkerish and delusional, on Naruto's part, and as far as Sasuke's concerned, doesn't even exist.


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## Eternity (Jan 4, 2013)

Now that the focus is pushed towards bonds, people bash that too. Funny how that works.


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## Shivers (Jan 4, 2013)

Your statement presumes that there was something I was 'bashing' previous to bonds, and I don't recall bashing all that much, at least on this forum, so I'm confused.

Although, this latest strategy from people of complaining that it's impossible to satisfy people with this passive-aggressive nonsense of 'Oh, Kishi does x and you bash that, and now he's doing y and you bash that, too? You're never satisfied.' is really poor. 

All it means is that both x and y are disliked. Kishi has total creative control over his manga and he can go anywhere he likes with it. He's not limited to just two or three options. And so any argument that concludes that people will never be happy with Kishi's work assumes that what he's been doing so far covers _everything_ he can do. And it doesn't.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jan 4, 2013)

In a way, yes. My respect for Kishimoto lies in his ability to make characters and make me love them somehow in this fantastic world he created. Beyond that though...


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## Eternity (Jan 4, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Your statement presumes that there was something I was 'bashing' previous to bonds, and I don't recall bashing all that much, at least on this forum, so I'm confused.
> 
> Although, this latest strategy from people of complaining that it's impossible to satisfy people with this passive-aggressive nonsense of 'Oh, Kishi does x and you bash that, and now he's doing y and you bash that, too? You're never satisfied.' is really poor.
> 
> All it means is that both x and y are disliked. Kishi has total creative control over his manga and he can go anywhere he likes with it. He's not limited to just two or three options. And so any argument that concludes that people will never be happy with Kishi's work assumes that what he's been doing so far covers _everything_ he can do. And it doesn't.



You did see the guy above your post right? I was aiming that mostly at him. Only a fraction of my post was aimed at you, in that you seem to hold so much against Kishi. But like I said, it was mostly aimed at the guy who called bonds "fucking homo".


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## Shivers (Jan 4, 2013)

Regardless, my point still stands. Your whole criticism is flawed.


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## Ernie (Jan 4, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Regardless, my point still stands. Your whole criticism is flawed.



You actually serious... 
*Spoiler*: __ 



My God...


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## Damaris (Jan 4, 2013)

kishi is very good at writing a shonen 
he doesn't try to subvert or surpass the genre he is writing in, and he shouldn't.


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## Damaris (Jan 4, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Kishi isn't all that great with bonds, for someone who makes so much of them.
> 
> I mean some of them he portrays wonderfully - like Naruto and Kushina.
> 
> But the pivotal friendship of this manga (Naruto and Sasuke) is ten different kinds of fucked-up, as well as stalkerish and delusional, on Naruto's part, and as far as Sasuke's concerned, doesn't even exist.



i will agree with this
their friendship has been developed more in chapter covers than it has in the manga
part one was so short in comparison to part two, that most of their brief friendship had to be overshadowed even then by sasuke feeling threatened/inferior to naruto, that even in part one it barely existed
sasuke has become more of an ideal to naruto than a person at this point. which is understandable but it does make me hope if kishi goes the sasuke redemption arc (which i think he will) that naruto's role in it will actually be minimal


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## Arles Celes (Jan 4, 2013)

Most people now are reading this manga either because they want to see what happens to their favourite character or for the lulz. Certainly few seem to care for the plot...and many characters that had plenty of potential were trolled/had their potential wasted.

Kishi is great at hyping something/someone but not so much when it comes to finishing with said character/plot aspect.

That said I still enjoy the manga due to cool jutsus and some curiosity at how will Kishi wrap all this shit up with the peace angle and what will happen to Sasuke.


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## Eternity (Jan 4, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Regardless, my point still stands. Your whole criticism is flawed.



It was an observation, not a criticism.

And it's funny because people are always going to dislike something, and if they are creative enough, they will find a way to justify it and make it believable.


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## Shivers (Jan 4, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> You actually serious...
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Do you actually see any problems with my reasoning?



Eternity said:


> It was an observation, not a criticism.
> And it's funny because people are always going to dislike something, and if they are creative enough, they will find a way to justify it and make it believable.



Aren't you just trying to poison the well by presenting honest criticism as irreparably biased?


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## Ernie (Jan 4, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Do you actually see any problems with my reasoning?




*Spoiler*: __ 



Are you a troll? Be honest!


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## Eternity (Jan 4, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Do you actually see any problems with my reasoning?
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't you just trying to poison the well by presenting honest criticism as irreparably biased?



Good point. 

Haven't thought about that, really. Guess, I jas had an annoyed reaction to what Drake said.


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## Shivers (Jan 4, 2013)

EliteRamenNinja said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Are you a troll? Be honest!



Are _you_ a troll? Because it seems to me that any unbiased account of our posts in this thread, contrasting my responses to yours, would conclude that it's you who is trolling.


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## MasterSitsu (Jan 4, 2013)

He is not as bad as Hideaki Anno, you couldn't write a manga with worse characters and obnoxious plot.

Naruto has its ups and downs but for me its decent entertainment.


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## Dream Brother (Jan 4, 2013)

I don't think he's terrible or anything, but I wouldn't call him particularly good either. He's probably at his best when he focuses on exploring characters and going for emotional impact, often looking at the way the characters try to fit into a hard, violent society (Sasuke and Itachi flashbacks in part one, Rock Lee vs Gaara, Naruto vs Neji, Hinata vs Neji, Kakashi Gaiden, etc) although he can trip up in this area too -- Naruto and Sakura's silly obsession with Sasuke being a big culprit. Obito's dramatic shift didn't really work either, although the general concept was fairly interesting. 

As the series went on it just came apart at the seams. The more Kishimoto tried to make the story epic and sweeping the less it worked. The worst element was probably the child of prophecy stuff and Naruto's character shift. He went from a dumb but amusingly blunt and fairly sympathetic protagonist to a dull, more traditionally heroic saviour figure, and his bizarre fixation on Sasuke only increased with time. 

Neglecting the side characters was also a massive mistake, as their contrasting backgrounds and stories provided a lot of the life and interest in part one. It's actually quite sad, because they did have potential, particularly when it came to Lee, Neji and Gaara. Kishimoto failed to develop most of the side characters, and the ones he did choose to develop went in the complete wrong direction, in my opinion. Neji is probably the biggest example -- getting him to change his mind about life after fighting Naruto isn't a bad thing in itself, but the execution of this sucked the humanity out of him and he became vacuous and boring. He vanished for a long period of time and then turned up only to be used as a plot device for Naruto and Hinata before dying. 

There are a lot of other issues, but it would take a much longer post to list them all. Ultimately, I do think Kishimoto isn't actually that bad when compared to most popular shonen. I definitely think he's better than Kubo. Like many mangaka, he also has a tough schedule, usually having to submit a chapter every week -- it must be very draining to do that for a while, let alone over a decade.


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 4, 2013)

I find him to be a bad writer I only read naruto because of the overall story which is good but from chapter to chapter naruto is boring, with a lot of plot bs.


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## AvengeRpro (Jan 4, 2013)

Ceasar Drake said:


> Bonds are a bit cheesy and dare i say, gay. Like revolving your plot around it is fucking homo



What kishi does best is appealing to as most audiences as possible, not just having goku and that's it.

Have you noticed the huge amount of homos here (check signatures and posts) and girls on an internet forum about nerd stuff? That says the job was well done.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 5, 2013)

Shivers said:


> Aren't you just trying to poison the well by presenting honest criticism as irreparably biased?





Eternity said:


> Good point.
> 
> Haven't thought about that, really. Guess, I jas had an annoyed reaction to what Drake said.



Thank god. There was a reason I posted that not all opinions were created equal. Shivers was just a bit more blunt than I was. And probably a bit more annoyed at you.



Dream Brother said:


> I don't think he's terrible or anything, but I wouldn't call him particularly good either. He's probably at his best when he focuses on exploring characters and going for emotional impact, often looking at the way the characters try to fit into a hard, violent society (Sasuke and Itachi flashbacks in part one, Rock Lee vs Gaara, Naruto vs Neji, Hinata vs Neji, Kakashi Gaiden, etc) although he can trip up in this area too -- Naruto and Sakura's silly obsession with Sasuke being a big culprit. Obito's dramatic shift didn't really work either, although the general concept was fairly interesting.
> 
> *As the series went on it just came apart at the seams. The more Kishimoto tried to make the story epic and sweeping the less it worked. The worst element was probably the child of prophecy stuff and Naruto's character shift. He went from a dumb but amusingly blunt and fairly sympathetic protagonist to a dull, more traditionally heroic saviour figure, and his bizarre fixation on Sasuke only increased with time.*
> 
> ...



Not to mention that Naruto went from dumb but amusingly blunt, to plain dumb with moments of a genius. Kishimoto never could let go of his trick to create a funny moment at the expense of Naruto's intellect. Even long after Naruto had passed such levels of stupidity. That was the start of the decline in Naruto's characterisation.

I'll just quote myself at this point:


NarutoShion4ever said:


> When I'm feeling generous I'll argue that Kishimoto is a talented writer and artist. And he did show that he is talented up to the end of the Hidan and Kakuzu arc. What gets Kishimoto into trouble is the fact that he's not good at juggling the various required elements of a story within the time constraints of having to publish on a weekly schedule.
> 
> When I'm not feeling generous I'll argue that Kishimoto created these problems for himself. He should know that he only has a certain amount of time each week, but instead of limiting the complexity of his story to fit the time constraints, he simply sacrifices elements of his story like: characterisation, pacing, logic and so on.
> 
> *Kishimoto seems to be good at the creative, right-side-of-the-brain stuff, but he seems to have problems with the logical, left-side-of-the-brain stuff.* Unfortunately for Kishimoto, a mangaka needs to be good at both.



It seems we have similar ideas; they're just explained a bit different.

As you said: "As the series went on it just came apart at the seams." I agree.


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## Escargon (Jan 5, 2013)

Theres something strange about me. I hate how Kishi fucks logic but when you think about other stuffs coming out of Japan that holds zero logic you should atleast accept Kishi. Yeah most of the time i do, but the Obito logic is just.. i cant stop hating Obito.

Lets take escape rope in pokemon:

1. Theres no hole in the roof so how the fuck can you use it?

2. You spin around and fly up.

Maybe Obito used that item? And he used a pokemon to alter time to create the bloody mist village?

And yeah Kishis writing is flawless, no argue. Especially when he build up hype on characters and then create 20 chapters with good plot and onepanels everything we waited for.

Like "I am the nature itself" to "Oh shit the sword can get longer oh fuck im dead." in one panel a half year later.

A funny mindtrick: If you think im sarcastic, then you might be a hater.

I just hate parts of this manga. Even if i hate this war arc its just a small part of it. I loved many fights. I started hating Uchihas when Sasuke fought Danzo tho, ten Izanagis and he lost?


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## Ceasar Drake (Jan 5, 2013)

AvengeRpro said:


> What kishi does best is appealing to as most audiences as possible, not just having goku and that's it.
> 
> Have you noticed the huge amount of homos here (check signatures and posts) and girls on an internet forum about nerd stuff? That says the job was well done.



So bonds in Naruto are done better than lets say One Piece or Fairy Tail. Naruto's infatuation with Saskue isn't even a bond, it's illegal.


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## SoulFire (Jan 5, 2013)

Kishimoto isn't a perfect writer, but he has done an amazing job considering how long this story has turned out to be. Often single chapters can appear boring, true, but if you go back and read a series of them (or one of the tankubon) the story seems far more cohesive and interesting. As has been said, the writing schedule for a mangaka is really murder and has to be hard on the creativity at times.

Part of Kishi's problem is that he is so darned good at creating characters that the readers simply fall in love with and want to see more of (and he just keeps creating them as the story flows along). That just isn't possible without wondering too far from the primary focus of the major plot lines. 

Given the length of this story, I also think that Kishi has at times rethought plot lines and retconned some of his original intentions as time has passed. Some of these changes fit more smoothly into the story than others. Still, he continues to surprise us with his chapters and keeps his readers looking for that next one. So no, he is not that bad of a writer at all.


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## Eternity (Jan 5, 2013)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> Thank god. There was a reason I posted that not all opinions were created equal. Shivers was just a bit more blunt than I was. And probably a bit more annoyed at you.



I was reffering to my post about how people hate on Kishi no matter what part of his writing comes into focus. Not my opinion on opinions and such. 

And I am sure I am just as annoyed with him as he is with me. 

And you do understand that your post about "not all opinions are created equally" is just an opinion right. An opinion that has _some_ merit to it, but your own opinion nontheless.

I love this manga. I think he is amazing at many things he does. I disagree with many things people hate about the manga. For example, I feel he is quite good at bonds and to an extent, romance. I feel that he has done a good job at characterizations and the use of side characters. Now, others 
may disagree with me, and that is fine. You can say that I am a bad reader if you want, seeing as "not all opinions are created equal" and therefore my opinion must be bad. Right? Cause that's what I read from this. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

So once again:

My opinion = Kishi is a good writer.

Not saying he is the best, but he is not bad in my eyes.


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## Drums (Jan 5, 2013)

I think Kishi is a great writer. Of course, there are parts in which his writing was bad but since noone's perfect, imo, you shouldnt judge a writer's writing ability by their bad moments in writing but by their good ones. If Kishi has managed to do enough well written parts, then this means that he has the ability for good writing and therefore he's a good writer.
For someone who has been writing a manga as long as he has, it's only normal that he's got tired and thus he is more prone to bad writing every once in a while.

Another mistake that many people make is that they compare part 1 to part 2. It's not about the one part or the other being better or worse. Despite the second being a continuation of the first, they are two very different themes and plots and thus comparing them is like comparing potatoes to strawberries.

Imo, for the most part, their respective themes taken into consideration, Kishi wrote part 1 as he was supposed to write it and same goes for part2.

If someone prefers one over the other, then it's clearly a matter of taste.


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## Xin (Jan 5, 2013)

No
10char


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## Talia00 (Jan 5, 2013)

Eternity said:


> Honestly.. you are basicly saying that if I don't find and respond to your claims, you are right about them. Doesn't work like that.



You've spend 3 plus post responding to me, typing paragraphs to argue with me. If you are unwilling to take the time to read back and counter my other points I am incline to think that you just couldn't go against them for a reason. Not simply because "You're lazy", other wise you wouldn't had been arguing with me this entire time, repeating the same arguments over and over. 




> I remember that I apogized for flaming you. Then you brought it up to remind me of something that has nothing to do with the actual discussion. So no, I do remember how we got where we are.



Bringing up what you've done also in order to so how much credibility you've lost so far in this debate. 



> The difference is that you seem oblivious to the fact that it is infact just your opinion, while I am fully aware that what you just said is a sentence.



And I have every right to express my opinion. And when you counter what I say, and I respond you back up and say

"WOAH! HOLD ON! THat's YOUR opinion!" 



> I am not being intentinally difficult.




Yes, you are. 


> The fact that you don't understand me doesn't automatically mean I am to blame. I might be a bit bad at explaining, but in this case, your inability to understand me is as much four mistake as it is mine.



No, I understand you quite perfect. Right now, you're bringing fallacies within the argument, while not even arguing/defending Naruto. 

Are you going to keep bringing these pointless things up? Or are you going to actually stay on topic?



> I already agreed with the fact that he could do better, but having room for improvement does, again, not mean he is a bad writer.




He's a terrible writer. He can "improve" his manga all he wants, it would be like spraying perfume over a skunk. 




> I apologized, you rationalize your behavior by saying I did it too.



Way to dodge the point, yet again. You stated "how mature", and you're the one who was making fun of people who liked Gantz?

NB4 "I APOLOGIZED! Why do you keep bringing this up?"

While you continue to miss the point. You're the last one that should be saying "How mature" sarcastically. 


> Part 1:
> Author implies anyone can choose their own destiny.
> 
> Part 2:
> ...



No, don't try to "make it all about perception"

It's HEAVILY implied that "Naruto is the child of destiny", so in essence, Kishimoto is going against part 1 Naruto. 


> If he said he would focus more on Sakura and Kakashi, andhe didn't, that means he changed his mind, simple as that. How is that a contradiction in the manga? Or better yet, how does changing ones mind about something mean he is a bad writer? It doesn't



It makes him terrible because he also LIES to the public. This is like a Video Game desiginer promising for certain characters/levels to be in a game, then when you buy the game/waste your time playing it, there is not a single character/level you were promised. 

Would you honestly be in support of "Ok, so what? He CHANGED HIS MIND! You can't blame him for that. It doesn't mean he's a terrible video game designer"





> You can go on if you like, it's not going to change the fact that I don't agree with you on it. I like what he did.



LOL, I already know for a fact that I don't need to "go on if I like". You find nothing wrong with part 2 Naruto, and how he obsessed over Sasuke, and wanted to bring him back against his own free will. You find nothing wrong with how he thought about him day and night, and he put other plans on hold for a GOOD amount of part 2 to "rescue" Sasuke. A guy that didn't care for Naruto for the most part, a guy that tried to KILL Sasuke.

This same Naruto, which a lot of people LOST respect for. 

So no, I'm not going to try and argue my point towards you in order for you to change your mind. Like Naruto as much as you want. 





> Gotta go. Social life and all that. Seeya.



Concession accepted, it's good to know you have to bring up your "social life" when you can't find the fortitude to type a legit response to me.


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## XO (Jan 5, 2013)

I don't think so. If anyone thinks so, what is their business on this site and what is their business communicating with the _fans_?


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## Eternity (Jan 5, 2013)

Talia said:


> You've spend 3 plus post responding to me, typing paragraphs to argue with me. If you are unwilling to take the time to read back and counter my other points I am incline to think that you just couldn't go against them for a reason. Not simply because "You're lazy", other wise you wouldn't had been arguing with me this entire time, repeating the same arguments over and over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I had to take a bus to where i was going, and I didn't have time to respond to the rest. 

But sure, if you want to call it a concession, by all means. I have already shown my point, and further discussion only leads to meaningless repetition on both ends.

I still love Kishi's manga, and I see him as a good writer. The end. Good bye.


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## Escargon (Jan 5, 2013)

Savena said:


> I don't think so. If anyone thinks so, what is their business on this site and what is their business communicating with the _fans_?



Well im only here to kill time and argue. I dont know why im even here arguing wether Kishi is a good or a shit writer, it wont affect my life anyways. Or yes it will, because, im pretty damn sure i am the right one here and many are the wrong ones, so that boosts my pride which i can have a good use for IRL.

IDK wether i am the right or the wrong one here, but the ones proving me wrong are the ones that are like me.

The flashback is a much bigger part than i thought. Obito flashback shows what kind of writer Kishi really is. If you think Obito flashback is logical and good, then hes good. If not, then hes bad. 

Theres one question i have for the bloody mist village: Wouldnt Obito be like four years old when he created that village? Or did i miss something?


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## Tragic Nous (Jan 6, 2013)

Not bad, but he has lost the steam he had in Part I.


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## Lemons (Jan 6, 2013)

Agreed. My only complaint for Part 2 would be that everyone is talking too much in this war. In a real life situation, I doubt your dying comrade would have enough time to give you a meaningful speech.Obito too. He repeats his beliefs over and over again,it gets too repetitive. Although Kishi tries to explain why all this is possible, it feels extremely unrealistic.


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## Grendel (Jan 6, 2013)

The Fool said:


> He's a great story teller and probably not a great writer. A trumps B.



I agree with this...

I have never really gone into any manga expecting world class writing but rather for the author's ability to tell a good story and for I think kishi has been extremely successful for the most part.  I may have preferred things to go differently in some instances but then I realize that this isn't my story to tell....

And for criticisms they are perfectly fine to have but too many times "this is shit" is stated as a fact and the responses to those type statements aren't really different than people who defend their favorite characters being attack...in short people don't like being told something they like sucks...and just as with those character threads this will just continue in circles...


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## Garfield (Jan 6, 2013)

No but neither is he good. He's a freakishly generic writer who chanced onto fame imo.


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## shintebukuro (Jan 6, 2013)

Escargon said:
			
		

> Theres one question i have for the bloody mist village: Wouldnt Obito be like four years old when he created that village? Or did i miss something?



The only thing that links Obito to the Bloody Mist is the single instance where we see him controlling Yagura, which fits perfectly into the storyline.



			
				adee said:
			
		

> No but neither is he good. He's a freakishly generic writer who chanced onto fame imo.



It would be interesting to hear your opinion on the correlation between fame and talent considering the quality of all the other "good" shounen series there are.


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## Gibits (Jan 6, 2013)

I'll keep it short since most of my reasons have been pointed out already by others:  no, I don't think Kishi is a bad writer. I think he leans towards good, but not perfect. 

It really depends on what your think good writing is. For me is is creating people you can relate to, that you care about and feel for. In that regard, Kishi is very good and I feel a large part of appeal stems from that. 

If you think a good writer is someone who weaves a fantastic world that inspires awe and envy, then Kishi might apply too. 

On the other hand, if you feel good writing in having a tight story, few plot holes, consistent rules, few uses of cliched storytelling (ie retcon and info dumps) then you may find Kishi's writing to be lacking. 

When factored together, I stand by my opinion that Kishi is a decent enough writer.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 6, 2013)

Gibits said:


> I'll keep it short since most of my reasons have been pointed out already by others:  no, I don't think Kishi is a bad writer. I think he leans towards good, but not perfect.
> 
> It really depends on what your think good writing is. For me is is creating people you can relate to, that you care about and feel for. In that regard, Kishi is very good and I feel a large part of appeal stems from that.
> 
> ...



Keep in mind that the author has the benefit of the doubt through the suspension of disbelief. As long as an author is careful about not breaking that suspension of disbelief, he can make us want to ignore quite a few inconsistencies. So factors like a "tight story" and "consistent rules" are more about keeping up appearances.

Off course, when Orochimaru said "Soul Transfer!" and Sasuke responded with "Sharingan!" and Sasuke won...that completely broke through my suspension of disbelief. How is genjutsu supposed to work on a soul? Once you're in that state of mind, you quickly start to notice all the other problems and you'll never suspend your disbelief again for the story in question.

Clich?s are more about your own reading experience (and viewing experience). If you've read too many stories with the same clich?s, they'll start to annoy you. That's why I switch genres once in a while.


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## Gibits (Jan 6, 2013)

If we listed all the instances inconsistencies, plot holes and retcons we would be here all day. This is Kishimoto's main failing as a writer and it makes him appear as if he's making thing up as he goes. 

Not to say making things as you go is a bad thing, indeed some of the bests works take a life of their own.   However, it should be consistent with the rules and atmosphere you established and not out of thin air or require you back track and modify your lore.


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## vagnard (Jan 14, 2013)

Kishimoto's main talent is to create interesting character but he doesn't know how to develop them in long term. All characters with long standing in the manga usually end worse than our first impression. Most people complain about Naruto and Sasuke currently. Few people like Nagato over Pain or Obito over Tobi. He started doing good with Sakura at the beginning of Part 2 just to turn her into crap even worse than Part 1.


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## SoleAccord (Jan 14, 2013)

He's not complete garbage but he has made some moves in Part 2 that have not sat well with me. Feels like he's been stalling for time by reusing the same old tired 'don't give up!' segments we've seen a thousand times already. I'm not reading for his writing necessarily, but to know what will become of certain characters.


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## Yakkai (Jan 14, 2013)

vagnard said:


> Kishimoto's main talent is to create interesting character but he doesn't know how to develop them in long term.



This is all that needs to be said.


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## scum of doom (Jan 14, 2013)

Not bad as kubo.
I dropped bleach and i'm still reading naruto.
That explains it.


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## Whirlpool (Jan 14, 2013)

He's good, but development isn't his strong suit. Naruto hasn't grown much, he went from idiot to idiot talking about prophecies. Sasuke still wants revenge and Sakura is still Sakura.

Hinata has had more growth than Naruto in my opinion.

Kakashi is his most proud creation in my opinion, him or Jiraiya.


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## Turrin (Jan 14, 2013)

He's not bad, but he certainly isn't the best.


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## Ernie (Jan 14, 2013)

Whirlpool said:


> *Hinata has had more growth than Naruto in my opinion.
> *
> Kakashi is his most proud creation in my opinion, him or Jiraiya.



I see what you did there. 

And I agree, however Jiraiya's death was simply perfectly written, he is missed in the manga...


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## Ernie (Jan 14, 2013)

Turrin said:


> He's not bad, but he certainly isn't the best.



Who do you think is the best? Give some examples, please.


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## M G T (Jan 14, 2013)

Well you can tell by how many predictions and discussion threads there are on this forums that Kishimoto is a genius writer.


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## Wax Knight (Jan 14, 2013)

No, he's just not the best


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## SageMaster (Jan 15, 2013)

Kishimito can be really great sometimes and other times be complete shit.

He can pull off emotional moments really well, but as said, he sucks at fullfilling the true potential of his creation. He wastes many good oportunities for his characters to show off and develop.


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## Raiden (Jan 15, 2013)

I strongly agree with the last point, Dream Brother mentioned. We don't consider enough that this dude's schedule is brutal, and there's hardly any time to think and plan in the way that he needs to. That probably explains why the pace is so choppy at times. He doesn't have a chance to second guess or reflect on anything with a comfortable window of time.


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## Palpatine (Jan 15, 2013)

Yakkai said:


> This is all that needs to be said.



This. He's not exactly a bad writer, but he's far from great. 

Still better than Kubo though...


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## Escargon (Jan 15, 2013)

Gibits said:


> If we listed all the instances inconsistencies, plot holes and retcons we would be here all day. This is Kishimoto's main failing as a writer and it makes him appear as if he's making thing up as he goes.



I think it is the case that Kishi sadly didnt plan Obito reveal and scanned his manga to make it make sense. 

And thats not what you should do after having years of "planning".

Kishi is good enough to keep me interested. I can tell you two good parts about Kishi: one, the character he has made is quite interesting and two, the mysteries of this manga is really addicting. 

Yeah its addicting, i know the reveals will suck but man, i still need to see it.


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## Chibason (Jan 15, 2013)

He's damn good. Good enough that he has millions of followers, including all of the whiny bitches on this site for instance.

I have been steadily entertained over the years. Who honestly has not?


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## Escargon (Jan 15, 2013)

Kishis mysteries are addicting. I think a big part of the followers are just people who wants to see the reveals.  

They dont care about other things so they bitch about everything that doesnt have anything to do with the mystery.

Yeah that kinda makes him a good writer.

And oh btw:


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## Seraphiel (Jan 15, 2013)

Chibason said:


> He's damn good. Good enough that he has millions of followers, including all of the whiny bitches on this site for instance.
> 
> I have been steadily entertained over the years. Who honestly has not?



I have not been entertained or impressed ever since Land of Waves save for a few rare instances.

While OP keeps me entertained at all times.

So it's obviously not everyone.

And the manga has had a decline it has not gotten better over the years.


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## Chibason (Jan 15, 2013)

Why do you still read it if it isn't entertaining? Frankly that just sounds stupid.


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## Pirao (Jan 15, 2013)

Seraphiel said:


> *I have not been entertained or impressed ever since Land of Waves save for a few rare instances.*
> 
> While OP keeps me entertained at all times.
> 
> ...



And you're still following it and posting about it, right. You must be some kind of masochist then.


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## ?Sharingan Squid? (Jan 15, 2013)

Naruto has been in a steady decline for more than 200 chapters.
I can't say that for any other manga.

Kishi is just running on fumes right now.


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## 민찬영 (Jan 15, 2013)

Chibason said:


> Why do you still read it if it isn't entertaining? Frankly that just sounds stupid.



Agree. Just quit reading if you don't like it. That's it.


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## Octus (Jan 15, 2013)

It's hard to quit when I'm so many chapters into the the story.


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## Pain In The Ass (Jan 15, 2013)

Octus said:


> It's hard to quit when I'm so many chapters into the the story.



Well that's my reason for reading Bleach. But even if Naruto was far from over I'd still read it because I like the manga.

He ain't the greatest but with few facepalms along the way, I still enjoy his work.


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## Trivub (Jan 15, 2013)

Rios said:


> Go big or go home. Thats what part 2 essentially is. The scope got bigger and the expectations grew with it. Unfortunately he doesnt seem to feel comfortable doing a grand scale war, thats why it was reduced to battles with several overpowered edos. Not going to delve deep into this but IMO he tried to swallow something way too big.
> 
> Thankfully Naruto is popular enough to keep him afloat.



Hmmmmmmmmmhmmmmmmmmmmmmhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 

maybe. I never really saw it as a war because the enemies were only Tobi, Kabuto and Zetsu. And! maybe more importantly, it lasted 2 days.


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## wstickman (Jan 15, 2013)

He has had great moments, he's had awful moments. Sadly, the awful ones are becoming more and more frequent, and the great ones less.


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## Eternity (Jan 15, 2013)

He has had great moments, he's had good moments, Of course, the great ones are becoming more and more frequent, and the good ones less.


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## Karyu Endan (Jan 15, 2013)

•Sharingan Squid• said:


> Naruto has been in a steady decline for more than 200 chapters.
> *I can't say that for any other manga.*
> 
> Kishi is just running on fumes right now.



_Bleach_ says hello. And it's not even personal opinion (which I am against the statement BTW, since I think _Bleach_ has gotten better since 2012 started for whatever value my singular opinion is worth); for the past three years in a row Bleach sold over one million copies *less* than the previous year, to the point it's selling *half* as good as it used to, and its anime got cancelled in favor of _Rock Lee's Springtime of Youth_ getting animated. And it's been effectively replaced by _Toriko_ in Shonen Jump as the 3rd big name of the magazine.

So we have losing half the intended fanbase in three years, having the anime get cancelled, and being replaced by another series for magazine advertisements.

However good I think _Bleach_ is right now, it's an unarguable fact that _Bleach_ is on life support in its home country, and its illness was concocted three years ago, whatever it actually is. So your comment actually fits _Bleach_ as well as, if not better than, _Naruto_.

And as for Kishi being a bad writer or not; I don't necessarily think so.

Some recent developments may appear to be asspulls on first glance, but in retrospect, there is foreshadowing present for almost every alleged instance. I won't be getting into particulars at this time though, and I've already made my case for Neji's death and the Tobito reveal being planned a good amount of time in advance (for Neji's death, around 1 year ago, and with Tobito, around the start of Part 2) in other threads.


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## BrokenBonds (Jan 15, 2013)

Eh, Kishimoto, in the whole scheme of things, is a pretty horrid writer. Although it's fine because every writer within the supposed "big three" is shitty.


_Naruto_ is mediocre
_Bleach_ is shit
_One Piece_ is overrated


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## Revolution (Jan 15, 2013)

If he continues to excuse the Uchiha massacre, then yes.


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## Mastigos (Jan 15, 2013)

Kishi has his fair share of brilliant moments and shitty moments. The way he writes his characters has a lot of quality flux, in my opinion.

There are amazing characters like Kakashi, Itachi, Madara and Bee.

There are absolute shit characters like Minato, Kakuzu, Pain and Yamato.

Most characters fall in the middle though, so it's a pretty good manga overall, including Naruto and Sasuke. The well-written characters keep the story interesting, the mediocre characters provide decent support.


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## PikaCheeka (Jan 16, 2013)

Chibason said:


> Why do you still read it if it isn't entertaining? Frankly that just sounds stupid.



Because fandom is entertaining. If NF didn't exist, a lot of us wouldn't be reading the manga.

It's not a very complicated concept.


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## chan (Jan 16, 2013)

kishi isnt a bad writer he just mastered in trolldom


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## Escargon (Jan 16, 2013)

Eternity said:


> He has had great moments, he's had good moments, Of course, the great ones are becoming more and more frequent, and the good ones less.



Theres one bad thing, sadly its a pretty big one in this manga.

He had to scan the manga to make the Tobi story to make sense, and he missed something about Tobis torso. 

If you want to point out why this is a good thing, feel free to.

But yeah, im starting to enjoy Naruto again a bit. Hopefully 616 will be as good.


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## Jυstin (Jan 16, 2013)

No. Kishi's main downfall is that he is _terrible_ at writing and developing side/anything-but-main characters.

That and the plots feel more and more rushed as time goes on. This used to be my favorite manga, but now I only stick with it for that reason. Had it started out like this? I'd not have given it a second look.

Even the anime's quality in animation has been declining.


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## PikaCheeka (Jan 16, 2013)

Kishi's writing is flawed in many ways but I think the whole "doesn't develop side characters enough" is just a fallback excuse.

I'd kind of like to know and read some of the series these people think have awesome character development all around, just so I can pick them apart and point out how most of them aren't any better.

There's no reason whatsoever to give every character development, and it would just waste time/frustrate readers to give minor characters any real significant development. Kishi is definitely bad in some instances (Sakura), but all this endless bitching about how the other rookies aren't given enough panel time is kind of meaningless.

This is a manga where Kishi is allowed 17-18 pages a week. There's such a thing as keeping an audience interested, and you don't do that by writing long epic side-stories for minor characters who will never end up being important.


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## Jυstin (Jan 16, 2013)

This may be true. Side characters aren't as important to some people, but he's still done a poor job of developing anyone who's not a main character, though a precious few have gotten some development. It's not like in part one. The side characters I'm talking about were quasi-main characters in part 1, or that's how they were treated. They don't feel the same anymore. They've been swept to the *way* way side, giving off the feeling that those who had importance before will now amount to nothing because they are not Naruto, Sasuke, or the final villains. I cannot overlook that. He killed what drew me to Naruto in the first place. It's a legitimate reason to have lost interest in it for me.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 16, 2013)

Karyu Endan said:


> _Bleach_ says hello. And it's not even personal opinion (which I am against the statement BTW, since I think _Bleach_ has gotten better since 2012 started for whatever value my singular opinion is worth); for the past three years in a row Bleach sold over one million copies *less* than the previous year, to the point it's selling *half* as good as it used to, and its anime got cancelled in favor of _Rock Lee's Springtime of Youth_ getting animated. And it's been effectively replaced by _Toriko_ in Shonen Jump as the 3rd big name of the magazine.
> 
> So we have losing half the intended fanbase in three years, having the anime get cancelled, and being replaced by another series for magazine advertisements.
> 
> However good I think _Bleach_ is right now, it's an unarguable fact that _Bleach_ is on life support in its home country, and its illness was concocted three years ago, whatever it actually is. So your comment actually fits _Bleach_ as well as, if not better than, _Naruto_.



I figured something like that was going on with Bleach. I didn't know it was that bad. Three years ago...that has to have been the Arancar arc, doesn't it? Never really liked that arc. I honestly enjoyed the anime filler arc more, simply because the plot actually moved forward with those.

But I agree that Bleach has gotten better. I'm enjoying the Quincy Nazis.



Karyu Endan said:


> And as for Kishi being a bad writer or not; I don't necessarily think so.
> 
> Some recent developments may appear to be asspulls on first glance, but in retrospect, there is foreshadowing present for almost every alleged instance. I won't be getting into particulars at this time though, and I've already made my case for Neji's death and the Tobito reveal being planned a good amount of time in advance (for Neji's death, around 1 year ago, and with Tobito, around the start of Part 2) in other threads.



What has annoyed me, was the take it or leave it approach in his writing. If Kishimoto had explained a bit better about transplanting (sealing?) someone's eyes into someone else's, then the comment about Nagato's eyes not being his own might be more believable. The same goes for the eye of the moon plan which is called genjutsu but isn't genjutsu like we've known it for the majority of the story. And on it goes.


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## heyRon (Jan 16, 2013)

Could you or anyone you know do better?  Kishi wrote the manga for 12 to 14 year olds they are now in their twentys.  That makes him good, kinda like Justin Beiber changing his style for his fans to grow with him.  So in a sense Justin Beiber = Kishi ..manga = fans


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## Squeek (Jan 16, 2013)

all the haters here talking but the irony is that they still wait wait every week for the new release and read it


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 16, 2013)

PikaCheeka said:


> Kishi's writing is flawed in many ways but I think the whole "doesn't develop side characters enough" is just a fallback excuse.
> 
> I'd kind of like to know and read some of the series these people think have awesome character development all around, just so I can pick them apart and point out how most of them aren't any better.
> 
> ...



He doesn't even develop his heroes. Also no one expected long side stories bit some development here and there wouldn't hurt.

Also about those series I doubt you would.


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## heyRon (Jan 16, 2013)

Squeek said:


> all the haters here talking but the irony is that they still wait wait every week for the new release and read it



Keep neg reppin me I want full red everyone else is green ... And then agree with me in my posts in another thread like you just did. Thanks 

Anyways people are always gonna hate on people who are better then them like Kishi and his writing.  It's human nature.


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## Escargon (Jan 16, 2013)

heyRon said:


> Could you or anyone you know do better?



Someone with their half brain blown away high on crack could come up with a better story about whos behind that mask.

Listen, im not blaming you, but ive seen tons of arguments like this about the Obito reveal. The answer to that is, yes, everyone could do it better. EVERYONE.

Theres one thing, ONE thing i will NEVER beat Kishi on and thats the world he created. Including characters, system etc. Thats what i think hes doing good with.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 16, 2013)

Aside from that you don't have to be a five star chef to know a charred steak is inedible, you do not have to make movies to be a critic, and you don't have to devote your life to being a novelist to determine a good story. heyRon is arguing from desperation.


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## heyRon (Jan 16, 2013)

Escargon said:


> Someone with their half brain blown away high on crack could come up with a better story about whos behind that mask.
> 
> Theres one thing, ONE thing i will NEVER beat Kishi on and thats the world he created. Including characters, system etc. Thats what i think hes doing good with.



You're right about one thing anyone who could right a story with that many co main characters is something special, well atleast to keep them all active the way he does,

Did you make the crack statement because of my name? Heyron and crack are opposites though so I doubt it.  FYI, Lil Wayne made two of his best selling songs on full week binges of crack, "I'm me" and "Sky is the Limit"


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## heyRon (Jan 16, 2013)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Aside from that you don't have to be a five star chef to know a charred steak is inedible, ylu do not. have to make movies to be a critic, and you don't have to devote your life to being a novelist to determine a good story. heyRon is arguing from desperation.



I'm not arguing anything anyone from writers to olympians to mcdonald's workers all have flaws nobody is perfect what's your point?


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## Succubus (Jan 16, 2013)

its aiiright this manga is aimed at 6-12 years old


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## heyRon (Jan 16, 2013)

Bikko said:


> its aiiright this manga is aimed at 6-12 years old



As I said earlier its aimed for twelve to fourteen and its aimed to grow with its fans like the beib is doin with his fans if new fans come along great but the money is in the hardcores


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## Let'sFightingLove (Jan 16, 2013)

heyRon said:


> Keep neg reppin me I want full red everyone else is green ... And then agree with me in my posts in another thread like you just did. Thanks



nonconformity is conformity in itself


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## Escargon (Jan 16, 2013)

heyRon said:


> Did you make the crack statement because of my name? Heyron and crack are opposites though so I doubt it.  FYI, Lil Wayne made two of his best selling songs on full week binges of crack, "I'm me" and "Sky is the Limit"



I wrote that too fast. I am yet the only one reading this manga that noticed for example that Tobi ripped off the opposite arm VS the fourth while only half of his body is replaced.

Not even Kishi noticed it. I must be something special 

About the crack, i meant that this flashback is so bad, that someone thats even half dead would make it better. I didnt notice any names.

I always wanted to make my own manga, but i lack something Kishi got, the way to make characters you love. My characters are always bland.
Thats why im never going to be a full hater, im the one who looks up on him and gets the ideas.
Maybe thats why im getting pissed at him. Hes so good at one thing that i cant just belivie hes this bad when it comes to other things. Especially when he planned it for years.


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## syferite (Jan 16, 2013)

Kishi's writing isn't bad per se. After all, we're reading a translated version of his work so you can't really make a fair assessment. It is readable, it makes sense and most importantly it leaves you with a large enough impression to get you to visit a forum dedicated to it.

In my opinion, Kishi became lazy and uninspired with his work, and it's understandable. It's rare to see a mangaka remain inspired for such a duration. Perhaps it's just me, but the way he tries to blitz through storylines and leave gaping plotholes while trying to tie in together loose ends out of no where... it's all extremely rushed, messy, and an indication that he doesn't give a flying fuck.

Everything else is just a matter of expectation. His writing appeals to a wide audience that expect different things from reading his manga. Something which was only worsened due to the timeskip which made the difference between his level of skill/inspiration in Part 1 vs Part 2.

I find it unfortunate because I feel that Kishi could've done a much better job with Part 2 had he not tried to take on too much (world destruction, god mode powerups). He should've taken it step by step and the manga would've been just as enjoyable if not even more so. Then again, what I would enjoy isn't necessarily what other people enjoy.


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## Suzuku (Jan 16, 2013)

No, he just lost a hold on Naruto. If you look at some of his earlier work and earlier parts of Naruto he's obviously a good writer.


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## Byrd (Jan 16, 2013)

If he makes you doubt OP.. then yes he has some qualities of bad writing.. I personally think he lost hold of Naruto


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## Karyu Endan (Jan 16, 2013)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> I figured something like that was going on with Bleach. I didn't know it was that bad. Three years ago...that has to have been the Arancar arc, doesn't it? Never really liked that arc. I honestly enjoyed the anime filler arc more, simply because the plot actually moved forward with those.
> 
> But I agree that Bleach has gotten better. I'm enjoying the Quincy Nazis.



Yup. That bad. Also, 2010 isn't the arrancar arc _per-se_; the bulk of that year was dedicated to the final battle with Aizen. Or rather, *chapter after chapter of one character showing off an epic attack, then Aizen no-selling/trolling it.* Until the very end where Aizen's on the receiving end of the trolling instead. So bad over a million fans dropped the manga.



> What has annoyed me, was the take it or leave it approach in his writing. If Kishimoto had explained a bit better about transplanting (sealing?) someone's eyes into someone else's, then the comment about Nagato's eyes not being his own might be more believable. The same goes for the eye of the moon plan which is called genjutsu but isn't genjutsu like we've known it for the majority of the story. And on it goes.



I can kinda see how that'd be a turn-off, and it's especially jarring when compared to _just how much _explanation things get earlier on. But it isn't that big a deal for me in all honesty.


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## Hero (Jan 17, 2013)

Rios said:


> Go big or go home. Thats what part 2 essentially is. The scope got bigger and the expectations grew with it. Unfortunately he doesnt seem to feel comfortable doing a grand scale war, thats why it was reduced to battles with several overpowered edos. Not going to delve deep into this but IMO he tried to swallow something way too big.
> 
> Thankfully Naruto is popular enough to keep him afloat.



Rios' most honest post 

But I share this exact same opinion. Do I still love Naruto? Yes. Do I think Kishi is the best writer? No. Is he good? Yes


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## kyubix2 (Jan 18, 2013)

any one who think he is bad in something,should no  be here. to talk about that,you have general annyme forums.


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## Yakkai (Jan 18, 2013)

Kishi is both a very good and very bad writer. He's excellent at world building and character creation. He's godawful at followthrough, character development, pacing... he's really bad at the things he's bad at, and really good at the things he's good at, that's why he's so frustrating to some people. If he was overall mediocre, no one would care, but he has moments of absolute brilliance mixed in a soup of godawfulness that drive people crazy. You see the good parts and that makes the bad parts seem ten times worse, because you know clearly he has the potential to be great. Does that make any sense?


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## Genma Saotome (Jan 18, 2013)

kyubix2 said:


> any one who think he is bad in something,should no  be here. to talk about that,you have general annyme forums.



Everyone is bad at something..


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## C-Moon (Jan 18, 2013)

kyubix2 said:


> any one who think he is bad in something,should no  be here. to talk about that,you have general annyme forums.



Let me put on my shades so you can deal with it.


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## Quintessential (Jan 18, 2013)

Part one was sublime. I dont think anybody doubts that. Part two had its moments but at the end of the day like with all sequels there was a sharp decline in quality.


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## Bruce Wayne (Jan 18, 2013)

Suzuku said:


> No, he just lost a hold on Naruto. If you look at some of his earlier work and earlier parts of Naruto he's obviously a good writer.



I guess he wants to start something new. 

Just look at Road To Ninja, that is good writing from Kishi.


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