# Strongest Video Game verse Cloud Strife and Sephiroth can beat



## Gundam Meister (Feb 27, 2013)

So which is it ? both of the are their strongest shown state


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## Linkofone (Feb 27, 2013)

I forgot what the greatest and most powerful things they did in their game and movie ... please refresh my memories.


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## CheesyFreak (Feb 27, 2013)

Tidus

Tidus

i think both profile's are correct unless they got a buff recently


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## Linkofone (Feb 27, 2013)

I'm gonna list some games that* I played within this month *and *people will have to figure out if they can beat them or not* and then we can round down from that:

Halo

Super Smash Brothers - Brawl

Metroid Series

Devil May Cry Series

Metal Gear Solid Series

Marvel Ultimate Alliance 1 and 2

SkullGirls

God of War 3

Gravity Rush

Fire Emblem Awakening

LOZ: Orcarina of Time

LOZ: Twilight Princess

*Metal Wolf Chaos*

Does Pokemon count?


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## Adamant soul (Feb 27, 2013)

I have no idea, I know shit like SMT, Shadow Hearts, Asura's wrath, Pokemon etc. would crush them but I don't know the strongest they could beat. They can beat a few FF verses, Kingdom Hearts and most of the Tales of games unless I'm missing something.


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## Adamant soul (Feb 27, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> I'm gonna list some games that* I played within this month *and *people will have to figure out if they can beat them or not* and then we can round down from that:
> 
> Halo
> 
> ...



Halo has tech that could crush them like ants and I'm not sure but I think Metroid does too. DMC and MGS get annihilated from what I know, not sure about GOW, legend of zelda definitely loses from what I know. Of course Pokemon counts, it's a game series and the creation trio crush Cloud and Seph.


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## CheesyFreak (Feb 27, 2013)

Adamant soul said:


> I have no idea, I know shit like SMT, Shadow Hearts, Asura's wrath, Pokemon etc. would crush them but I don't know the strongest they could beat. They can beat a few FF verses, Kingdom Hearts and most of the Tales of games unless I'm missing something.



wouldnt kindom hearts all at once be too much for sephiroth and cloud?


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## Azrael Finalstar (Feb 27, 2013)

Samus' composite energy beam should wreak havok upon him.


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## Adamant soul (Feb 27, 2013)

CheesyFreak said:


> wouldnt kindom hearts all at once be too much for sephiroth and cloud?



Both Cloud and Seph have country level durability as it stands, nothing in Kingdom Hearts comes anywhere near that, add in triple digit Mach speed and insane firepower especially on Seph's part and Kingdom Hearts in screwed.


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## CheesyFreak (Feb 27, 2013)

Adamant soul said:


> Both Cloud and Seph have country level durability as it stands, nothing in Kingdom Hearts comes anywhere near that, add in triple digit Mach speed and insane firepower especially on Seph's part and Kingdom Hearts in screwed.



how much precise? kh high tiers are mach 132, mountain busters, maybe working together they could fix something?

but thats just speculation from my part


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## Linkofone (Feb 27, 2013)

Do we have a starting point?


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## CheesyFreak (Feb 27, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> Do we have a starting point?



lets start with the cooking mama verse


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## Linkofone (Feb 27, 2013)

CheesyFreak said:


> lets start with the cooking mama verse



Doesn't she have like Toon-Force or something? 

I was thinking of Starting with Maplestory Verse. The Big Bad (Black Mage) has continental reality warping as well as a variety of sealing magics.


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## Expelsword (Feb 27, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> I'm gonna list some games that* I played within this month *and *people will have to figure out if they can beat them or not* and then we can round down from that:
> 
> Halo
> *Spacefairing tech rapes*
> ...



That's my two cents.


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## CheesyFreak (Feb 27, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> Doesn't she have like Toon-Force or something?
> 
> I was thinking of Starting with Maplestory Verse. The Big Bad (Black Mage) has continental reality warping as well as a variety of sealing magics.



she has the power to learn cloud and sephiroth about cooking


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## Linkofone (Feb 27, 2013)

CheesyFreak said:


> she has the power to learn cloud and sephiroth about cooking



But she is too powerful.


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## CheesyFreak (Feb 27, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> But she is too powerful.



i really wouldnt know if she could do anything against them, but what she can do is force shepiroth to cook together with her, leading him to gain the motherly love he never got from Jenova


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## Linkofone (Feb 27, 2013)

She could make them really fat.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Feb 27, 2013)

Adamant soul said:


> Halo has tech that could crush them like ants and I'm not sure but I think Metroid does too.



Definitely.

These two aren't planet busters, so there's nothing they can do about Phaaze.


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## CheesyFreak (Feb 27, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> She could make them really fat.



chubby sephiroth and cloud


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## CheesyFreak (Feb 27, 2013)

Keollyn said:


> What?**



its scaled from cloud who seems to have country lvl durability


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## Linkofone (Feb 27, 2013)

CheesyFreak said:


> its scaled from cloud who seems to have country lvl durability



So he can tank a hit that can destroy a country?


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## Louis Cyphre (Feb 27, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> Devil May Cry Series



Dante fight against Hitoshura.
Hitoshura finger > These two together.


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## CheesyFreak (Feb 27, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> So he can tank a hit that can destroy a country?



basicly yes


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## Adamant soul (Feb 27, 2013)

Keollyn said:


> What?**



Comes from the maximum energy generated by the average materia, Cloud was hit by two ga level spells by Loz and Yazoo and survived, Sephiroth is at least as durable, still doesn't beat easy continent level on the part of Omega Weiss and Chaos Vincent.


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## Keollyn (Feb 27, 2013)

I'll proceed to log out now.


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## Linkofone (Feb 27, 2013)

I'm gonna go kick myself ...


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## CheesyFreak (Feb 27, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> I'm gonna go kick myself ...



dont you are the heart of the universe, we will all implode if you do that


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## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 27, 2013)

Keollyn said:


> I'll proceed to log out now.



Just feel free to blame me 

Funny thing being, FFVII is still only a mid tier FFverse


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## Byrd (Feb 27, 2013)

They are not beating Skullgirls, many of the tales games, the chrono series, 

They are basically low-tier when it comes to RPGs


Skullgirls have people at planet level

Tales has the same 

I really can't think of any RPG's they can beat


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## Qinglong (Feb 27, 2013)

I have probably overlooked something, but I think they can take much of the Dept Heaven series.

The only other games near me are Summon Night and Valkyria Chronicles (and a broken copy of Mimana Iyar Chronicles)

EDIT: Advance Wars as well, although Days of Ruin didn't have as much tech as the other ones


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## Byrd (Feb 27, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> I have probably overlooked something, but I think they can take much of the *Dept Heaven series*.
> 
> The only other games near me are Summon Night and Valkyria Chronicles (and a broken copy of Mimana Iyar Chronicles)
> 
> EDIT: Advance Wars as well, although Days of Ruin didn't have as much tech as the other ones



All except for Riviera I think due to Hector

Questionable about Gungnir tho considering those summons


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 27, 2013)

I'm not sure they even beat MG.


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## Qinglong (Feb 27, 2013)

Haven't finished Gungnir but opening scene alone was pretty good...

Hector is allofmyrage

EDIT: forgot about Ursula and Set, although I don't recall which realm got destroyed and how...


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## Byrd (Feb 27, 2013)

I'm on the second to final stage of Gungnir.. the mechanics are nice and it has a ton of replayable.. 

Hector took me several tries to beat....

They can probably beat RoF... but most verses they win against are low-tier


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## Qinglong (Feb 27, 2013)

Holy crap there's a ton of games I haven't gone through, but I can't say any of them are particularly strong


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## Linkofone (Feb 27, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> I'm not sure they even beat MG.



I don't know, they might be strong enough.


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## Rene (Feb 27, 2013)

Definitely not gonna beat Star Ocean (either 3 or 4, don't know enough about 1 and 2 though I've heard the wisemen are pretty damn powerful)

Maybe some of the Nasuverse games if you limit it to the things like fate/extra and such.

They'd stomp DMC from what I remember.


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## Qinglong (Feb 27, 2013)

Arcueid shows up in F/E, so nope

Well, when she's not under a master's control, since she got weakened twice in Extra


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## Linkofone (Feb 27, 2013)

Command and Conquer games? Maybe?

I guess everyone should just keep listing games.

They can't beat any space age games ...

I wish League of legends have feats.


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## Byrd (Feb 27, 2013)

Rene said:


> Definitely not gonna beat Star Ocean (either 3 or 4, don't know enough about 1 and 2 though I've heard the wisemen are pretty damn powerful)
> 
> Maybe some of the Nasuverse games if you limit it to the things like fate/extra and such.
> 
> They'd stomp DMC from what I remember.



They ain't beating Star Ocean at all... they have planet destroying ships and stuff...

They probably can beat the Legend of Mana and the Mana series


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## TehChron (Feb 27, 2013)

Can they take Skies of Arcadia?

Probably not, especially if we scale the monster population to the original versions random encounter rate.

Xenogear/saga and maybe Xenoblades craps all over them as well.

Maybe they can take Dynasty Warriors?


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## Rene (Feb 27, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> Arcueid shows up in F/E, so nope
> 
> Well, when she's not under a master's control, since she got weakened twice in Extra


Moon drop it is.



Linkofone said:


> I wish League of legends have feats.


I think Kassadin has like a town level feat in his lore? Might've been Xerath as well, not sure.



Byrdman said:


> They ain't beating Star Ocean at all... they have planet destroying ships and stuff...


Really? All I remember is Jormungand in 4. I just know that with the whole 4D and stuff they're insanely broken.


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## Byrd (Feb 27, 2013)

Rene said:


> Moon drop it is.
> 
> 
> I think Kassadin has like a town level feat in his lore? Might've been Xerath as well, not sure.
> ...



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIiPiXjsZSk[/YOUTUBE]

This is from Star Ocean 1.. If I remember it was a ship that done this


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## Rene (Feb 27, 2013)

Well damn.


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## Linkofone (Feb 27, 2013)

Anyone played Odin Sphere? What about that?


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 27, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> I don't know, they might be strong enough.


Nanomachines son.
could use something like foxdie on them.


Linkofone said:


> Anyone played Odin Sphere? What about that?



No way in hell are they beating that.


Byrdman said:


> They ain't beating Star Ocean at all... they have planet destroying ships and stuff...
> 
> They probably can beat the Legend of Mana and the Mana series


They probably can't beat mana.


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## shade0180 (Feb 27, 2013)

What about BoF, the Mana series, And Legend of Legaia, Legend of Dragoon games? how would they fair against them?


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## NeoKurama (Feb 27, 2013)

So many to choose from.


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## Byrd (Feb 27, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> What about BoF, the Mana series, And Legend of Legaia, Legend of Dragoon games? how would they fair against them?



I doubt BoF...


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 27, 2013)

Breath of Fire?
Not a chance at all.

We are talking about video game verses after all they are only 2 people so unless they majorly out match said verse to the point numbers don't matter they don't win.


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## Expelsword (Feb 27, 2013)

Rene said:


> Definitely not gonna beat Star Ocean (either 3 or 4, don't know enough about 1 and 2 though I've heard the wisemen are pretty damn powerful)


Star Ocean 2 is the strongest from what I know (as long as you disregard all the 4D Space stuff...) The Ten Wise Men can take planet level attacks, and are each capable of defeating massive magical/technological armies, Decus, (3rd strongest Wise Man) was capable of _*melting* mountains_.



Byrdman said:


> They ain't beating Star Ocean at all... they have planet destroying ships and stuff...


Star Ocean eats them for breakfast. They have planet busting _*swords*_ and the capability to destroy the entire Universe.


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## Linkofone (Feb 27, 2013)

Wait, beating as in beating the gods and creators and stuff?


They can probably beat SCP Containment Breach right?


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## Rene (Feb 27, 2013)

Just rewatched some scenes from Star Ocean 3 and they wouldn't even survive against a single Executioner. Those things were damn impressive, causing what I assume to be country level blasts and moving plus intercepting things at FTL speeds.

Don't know how my brain downplayed them so much. : < I mostly just remember all the stuff with Aquaria and Airglyph.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 27, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Nanomachines son.
> could use something like foxdie on them.



So... metal gears going to get to use shit that can theoretically kill them... before or after they glass the surrounding general area?

I mean, the fuck does metal gear verse have on generic earth barring bullet timing superhumans and what's likely slightly superior tech?



Unlosing Ranger said:


> We are talking about video game verses after all they are only 2 people so unless they majorly out match said verse to the point numbers don't matter they don't win.



I'm speaking purely in general... but thats easily achieveable so long as a character is only a few times faster than the verse in general and have maybe only a tier on the verses top tiers in terms of durability... not even that much.

It doesn't take much to overwhelm a verse that only has pure numbers on its side.

I've showcased this in numerous such and such an asshole somewhat above HST top tiers on the whole vs the entire HST.  Same sort of match, just a different suit.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 27, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> So... metal gears going to get to use shit that can theoretically kill them... before or after they glass the surrounding general area?
> 
> I mean, the fuck does metal gear verse have on generic earth barring bullet timing superhumans and what's likely slightly superior tech?




I'd like to see proof of said glassing.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 27, 2013)

Wow... a maybe city block level feat.

No, seriously, better than I was expecting, but... how's that helping them?


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## Linkofone (Feb 27, 2013)

Actually Metal Gear Rising gave Metal Gear series a huge boost in power.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 27, 2013)

That's great.

Big doesn't mean they're handling assholes with triple digits mach, country level stats and special powers like summons or magic/limit breaks with continental power.

If someone can show me any such evidence?  I'd be thrilled to concede.

But I haven't been shown anything even close to town level yet from the characters.  Let alone what's required to be of use here.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 27, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Wow... a maybe city block level feat.
> 
> No, seriously, better than I was expecting, but... how's that helping them?



It's probably better than what cloud showed in advent children.
I haven't seen a single spell besides meteor do any of the damage you are suggesting is possible.
And Meteor takes forever.


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## Byrd (Feb 27, 2013)

They can beat Dragon Dogma


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## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 27, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> It's probably better than what cloud showed in advent children.
> I haven't seen a single spell besides meteor do any of the damage you are suggesting is possible.
> And Meteor takes forever.



And yet, you're wrong chuckles.

Especially when powerscaling from the game comes into play.

I'm sorry, but you're just coming off as incredibly asshurt here 

Let's put it like this, its no different that stupid shit like Thanos being arrested by the police.  You have your lower looking showings, then you have the more accurate shit (climhazzard cutting through and negating then energy of bahamuts big ass flare, sephy-chan's manipulation of the lifestream, etc)

Seriously, you're talking about a game where the goal of the big bad was to absorb energy equivalent to the planet's GBE and become a fucking "god".

Guess what?  Your heroes are going to get all sorts of raped if they're only lower end meta human


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## TehChron (Feb 27, 2013)

They still win a battle of quality, though


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## Crimson Dragoon (Feb 27, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I mean, the fuck does metal gear verse have on generic earth barring bullet timing superhumans and what's likely slightly superior tech?



they already built something like  back in the 60s, nevermind crap like , , , and other fun stuff 

slightly superior is a huge understatement, MGSverse would make our modern earth its bitch


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## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 27, 2013)

I see, gotcha CD.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Feb 27, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> EDIT: Advance Wars as well, although Days of Ruin didn't have as much tech as the other ones



Black Hole has continent busting superweapons, so Advance Wars is up in the air. They win if they can land a hit with their big guns, lose if they don't.



Linkofone said:


> Command and Conquer games? Maybe?



Generals, sure, but probably not the others.

Red Alert and Tiberium have a lot of hax that they'd have trouble dealing with, and the latter also has an interstellar empire in the form of the Scrin.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 27, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> And yet, you're wrong chuckles.
> 
> Especially when powerscaling from the game comes into play.
> 
> ...



Except that the heroes in actuality should have stood no chance going by their overblown stats anyway against said "god"
This has nothing to do with lower showings at all since you are using powerscaling.
I simply want proof.
Show me a spell in cutscene besides meteor busting a continent.
Then show why cloud has country level durability and explain why.


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## armorknight (Feb 27, 2013)

They can beat most of the Tales games except for Phantasia due to Dhaos.


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## Byrd (Feb 27, 2013)

armorknight said:


> They can beat most of the Tales games except for Phantasia due to Dhaos.



No.. they can't beat Vesperia, Destiny, Graces for a fact

Edit: nor Eternia due to Seyfert


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 27, 2013)

Byrdman said:


> No.. they can't beat Vesperia, Destiny, Graces for a fact



[YOUTUBE]3N2tbS9ctbQ[/YOUTUBE]
Not beating symphonia either.
That eternal sword is pretty uber.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 27, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Except that the heroes in actuality should have stood no chance going by their overblown stats anyway against said "god"



Not at all, they were just fast enough to avoid much more than glancing blows and overwhelmed him with numbers.

Not to mention, omnislash without fail is powerful enough to kill sephiroth in every showing its had.



> This has nothing to do with lower showings at all since you are using powerscaling.



Not just powerscaling, the game has more than enough feats to support shit dipshit.



> I simply want proof.



So, you've been in no thread in which I've posted both arguments and the fucking calcs?

If not?  Fair enough, I can explain again.

If you have been?  Get the fuck out of the goddamn thread dipshit.



> Show me a spell in cutscene besides meteor busting a continent.



The ultimate weapon has  feats.  One by ramming into the fucking ground after leaving crater (thus granting both continent level physical might and durability), which forms the junon area sea/lake/whatever the fuck.

Then, at its death, it forms another petaton level crater.

Then you have the , which fuels the junon canon, which has an energy output of 15 petatons from the huge materia at least.

The junon canon is powerful enough to plow through the weapons like a hot knife through butter.  Sephy-chan's magic barrier on the other hand was able to resist being broken for 3 seconds before the blast overcame it, thus granting him continent level magic given how not only is the midgar sister ray superior in yield to the ones powered by huge materia, it also has plowing through and killing continent level weapons as back up.



> Then show why cloud has country level durability and explain why.



Survived a combination of comet/flare on the shinra building roof in ACC.

the average materia has an energy output of 48 teratons.

This is based off what we know of huge materia being 330 times more potent than regular materia.

This being said by someone from the shinra electric company, means its stated to be taken in terms of watts/second.  Given they'e a fucking power company and that's how shit would be measured.

Not to mention?  If I really want to be a cunt?  Ultimate weapon fires off a shadow flare in a scripted event at death.

At most, it can only knock the person it hit out.  Low end would suggest cloud was the one to endure it, thus giving him continent level durability and sephy-chan benefits by proxy.

It doesn't take much for me to argue in favor of them having offed the weapons overall either, so... pick your poison, because I feel like being enough of an ass to legitimize continent level slashes atm


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## Linkofone (Feb 27, 2013)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Black Hole has continent busting superweapons, so Advance Wars is up in the air. They win if they can land a hit with their big guns, lose if they don't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah Generals is fairly weak....compared to a lot of things ... I think the highest feat was destroying a large city plus +.

Now i'm sad ...


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## armorknight (Feb 27, 2013)

Byrdman said:


> No.. they can't beat Vesperia, Destiny, Graces for a fact
> 
> Edit: nor Eternia due to Seyfert



Can't recall anyone in Vesperia or Graces with anywhere close to the required speed and DC/durability to compete.

Edit: Unless you're counting the adephagos from Vesperia.


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## Byrd (Feb 27, 2013)

armorknight said:


> Can't recall anyone in Vesperia or Graces with anywhere close to the required speed and DC/durability to compete.



You have Adephagos first of all to deal with and Duke also in his final form... 

although Lambda may give them trouble.. thinking of it.. they might take Graces then


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## armorknight (Feb 27, 2013)

Byrdman said:


> You have Adephagos first of all to deal with and Duke also in his final form...
> 
> although Lambda may give them trouble.. thinking of it.. they might take Graces then



Duke and Lambda should only be around multi-city-block - town level and maybe supersonic speed by themselves. Lambda does have that possession hax though IIRC.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Feb 27, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> Yeah Generals is fairly weak....compared to a lot of things ... I think the highest feat was destroying a large city plus +.
> 
> Now i'm sad ...



It's because Generals is a lot more realistic in terms of technology level. Red Alert and Tiberium are much more powerful overall since they have loads of crazy sci-fi stuff.


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## Byrd (Feb 28, 2013)

armorknight said:


> Duke and Lambda should only be around multi-city-block - town level and maybe supersonic speed by themselves. Lambda does have that possession hax though IIRC.



Even without duke you have Adephagos which is a lifewiper


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## armorknight (Feb 28, 2013)

Byrdman said:


> Even without duke you have Adephagos which is a lifewiper



Yeah adephagos would win. Slipped my mind at first since it isn't a named character.


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## Keollyn (Feb 28, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Seriously, you're talking about a game where the goal of the big bad was to absorb energy equivalent to the planet's GBE and become a fucking "god".



To which was never accomplished, so this shouldn't be a valid reason.

FF isn't new to stopping villains excruciatingly ahead of the protagonist weight class. FF8 is a wonderful example of this. In fact, I cannot think of any FF past FF6 (that I've played) that wasn't a blatant "we beat what we shouldn't be able to". Hell, not even a new concept to fiction.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Survived a combination of comet/flare on the shinra building roof in ACC.
> 
> the average materia has an energy output of 48 teratons.
> 
> This is based off what we know of huge materia being 330 times more potent than regular materia.



Chaos my good man, why are you saying energy output? My FF7 knowledge is fuzzy (for good reasons), but was there anywhere that said how much the materia can output? I'm honestly asking, because I don't know.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2013)

Keollyn said:


> To which was never accomplished, so this shouldn't be a valid reason.



I'm illustrating the scale.

He already achieved continental in his safer form either way.



> FF isn't new to stopping villains excruciatingly ahead of the protagonist weight class. FF8 is a wonderful example of this. In fact, I cannot think of any FF past FF6 (that I've played) that wasn't a blatant "we beat what we shouldn't be able to". Hell, not even a new concept to fiction.



No, not really, most FF villains just happen to be glass cannons compared to their destructive might.

FFVIII, once more, being a perfect example.

The heroes will always have the means to put the villains down, even if we can only blame summons at the low end.

PIS is a cop out that doesn't really fly.



> Chaos my good man, why are you saying energy output? My FF7 knowledge is fuzzy (for good reasons), but was there anywhere that said how much the materia can output? I'm honestly asking, because I don't know.



Scarlet outright states that huge materia is 330 times more powerful than regular materia.

They're a fucking electric/power company.

They have nothing like power level bullshit.

She's clearly talking in terms of watts/second.

Which converts to joules per second.


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## Keollyn (Feb 28, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> No, not really, most FF villains just happen to be glass cannons compared to their destructive might.



I don't think being glass cannons is the main issue for these villains, but that's besides the point.

All I'm saying is that the power of a villain isn't evident of how strong the heroes should be. Plot devices and DEM are a hot market in the video game world.


> FFVIII, once more, being a perfect example.
> 
> The heroes will always have the means to put the villains down, even if we can only blame summons at the low end.



I'd believe this moreso than random, almost final boss-like, power spikes from the heroes.




> PIS is a cop out that doesn't really fly.



Glad that isn't on the table here.



> Scarlet outright states that huge materia is 330 times more powerful than regular materia.



Yeah, I got that from your post and blog on this.



> They're a fucking electric/power company.
> 
> They have nothing like power level bullshit.
> 
> ...



I'm asking about its output, not capacity. Although given this response, I can gather there is no such statement on that.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2013)

First?

I'd like to apologize for the lord raizen like wall of text 



Keollyn said:


> I don't think being glass cannons is the main issue for these villains, but that's besides the point.



Well, have to have the power to kill them some how to start with.



> All I'm saying is that the power of a villain isn't evident of how strong the heroes should be. Plot devices and DEM are a hot market in the video game world.



Plot devices?  They can and do occur, but they're not really present in the "let's make the heroes invulnerable and utterly weaken the villain to being weaker than a cripple" sort of nonsense.

IV?  Zeromus just lost intangibility (prior to that?  party survived scripted magic attacks from the fucker), V?  That was pretty Deus Ex Machina Apparently.  VI?  The party was just that damn strong featwise and in terms of espers.  Not to mention VI is pretty damn fast in general.

VII?  Nada, party was either fast enough in general to weave around sephy's shit well enough to live through glancing blows while taking advantage of numbers to ensure that happened on a consistent basis, or they were hit by shit, and survived.  Luckily, the whirlwind maze speed feats fairly supportive of the party in general being fast enough to keep pace, so the former is the most likely option.

IX?  Not like the summons and zidane weren't fucking powerful to begin with anyway.

I can go on and on, but the point remains, in FF games?  The plot devices and DEM evident in other games isn't generally present in the end game FFs as far as I remember outside V and III.



> I'd believe this moreso than random, almost final boss-like, power spikes from the heroes.



VIII has the benefit of limit breaks and para magic also being fairly powerful going off inference in the adel fight.

Can't use GFs without killing rinoa apparently, thus only leaving us with the next alternative low end option.

So, they're pretty powerful even in terms of physical attacks and magic (though the physical can only be claimed off limits I guess)

Though squall and seifer being roughly equal are about as physically strong as Odin.



> Glad that isn't on the table here.



Glad to hear it too.



> I'm asking about its output, not capacity. Although given this response, I can gather there is no such statement on that.



If the energy is contained inside of it... why the fuck wouldn't it be capable of powering a ga level spell with that level of power?

Not like I'm saying the level 1 shit or ra level spells are wielding this level of energy, only the maxed out strongest spells can dole out everything at the materia's disposal.

The energy is there to be used, why wouldn't they be able to use it?


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 28, 2013)

Rene said:


> Moon drop it is.
> 
> 
> I think Kassadin has like a town level feat in his lore? Might've been Xerath as well, not sure.



Unbound Xerath wrecked his whole country simply by being born.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2013)

Nightbringer said:


> Unbound Xerath wrecked his whole country simply by being born.



Not bad for seconds old


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 28, 2013)

Well maybe born is the wrong word to use here. 

I will rephrase that to:

Unbound Xerath wrecked his whole country simply by ascending.


----------



## Saint Saga (Feb 28, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Not bad for seconds old



Yeah, although it's more like wrecking it just by gaining his current power as a side effect.

Current Xerath though has a power limiter that makes him unable to use most of his power.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2013)

Ah.

That's certainly a better way of putting it.

@Saga - Gotcha


----------



## Saint Saga (Feb 28, 2013)

Not to mention the summoners who are pretty much above everyone else in the verse.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 28, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> If not?  Fair enough, I can explain again.
> 
> Then you have the , which fuels the junon canon, which has an energy output of 15 petatons from the huge materia at least.
> 
> ...



Was the roof still intact? 
Can I see "scarlet's exposition on the matter."
Because I'm not to sure about that.
Like you said if that was the case why didn't they gather a large amount of materia? I'm thinking Materia don't have the same output despite being 330 times less potent. Fire 1,fire 2,fire3 aren't the same you know.

Or maybe that they only get that same kind of output when used the way the power company uses it.


Also about that barrier, was it using a materia?
If it was why would it be able to stop continental blasts with that amount of power? If the answer it's not a normal materia since it can stop such blasts why would it transfer at all with powerscaling?

If the barrier isn't a materia have does it transfer to other materia in use with powerscaling and if it is how does it transfer to other materia when it's unnatural and strictly defensive? 

As for the amount of energy claimed for normal materia's *output*.
48 teratons.
48 times that of a 10 on the Richter scale if the output is believed
I don't believe that. Lets ignore the output for now and assume it's just overall energy that can be drawn over time.

Isn't it enough to power everything on our planet several times over?
48,000,000,000 kilotons of TNT = 4184000000 Terajoules 
1 J= 1W
1TJ= 1,000,000,000,000 joules
So 1 normal materia is enough to power our planet for 3 years?
I'm sorry but does that even fit into the setting at all let alone any kind of sense?
What the hell do they have 1 million watt bulbs.

I mean it explains why cloud and sephy-chan are strong since it's injected into them , but it brings us alot of other problems.
Exactly how much would there have to be injected to get that insane result along with jenova cells?

Crisis Core's ending in particular bothers me where he falls to an army and even ignoring that ending there is zack's original death in ff7 where he's done in by 3 soldiers. And he could somewhat match sephy-chan.
I take a lot of issues with the story if it's to be considered true.


----------



## scerpers (Feb 28, 2013)

This is actually kind of difficult. I'll just list off some shit I read in the thread, plus my personal opinions.



> Legend of Dragoon


Probably not. Definitely not if Dart has his Divine Dragoon form.


> Elder Scrolls Series


Absolutely would not win against CoC or Nerevarine. Would be able to take down Dragon Porn without much difficulty.


> Deus Ex


Maybe pre-fusion with Helios JC, but not post-fusion. Would win against Adam, though.


> Devil May Cry


No way in Hell. Dante would assblast them into the Abyss. Also Vergil.


> Tales


Not Symphonia.


> SMT Universe


Hue


> Metal Gear


This is a hard one. Really hard. It could be 50/50. 

They might be able to take down the Legend of Legaia universe, but I'm not even sure about that. Cloud and Sephiroth are pretty low on the power-scale.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Was the roof still intact?



Nope, demolished the floor.

And he fact is was contained to the roof is irrelevant, given j/cc can get fairly intense.



> Can I see "scarlet's exposition on the matter."



I don't remember where it happened specifically, nor do I have time to hunt for it for you.

I just know it happened some time between the introduction of huge materia and the rocket to the meteor.  It's been a while since I played the game and all, but the fact I've played it about 10 times does let me at least remember what was said, coupled with the wiki reminding me of shit to check up on.



> Because I'm not to sure about that.



You don't need to be.

You're opinion on the matter isn't actually relevant.



> Like you said if that was the case why didn't they gather a large amount of materia? I'm thinking Materia don't have the same output despite being 330 times less potent. Fire 1,fire 2,fire3 aren't the same you know.



Or, it is, yet clearly materia isn't as expendable a resource as gameplay leads us to believe.

I mean, outside the party collecting it and shit?  Who's to say anyone outside shinra has the shit at their disposal in abundance?



> Or maybe that they only get that same kind of output when used the way the power company uses it.



Occam's razor suggests otherwise.



> Also about that barrier, was it using a materia?



It was his magic dipshit.

Materia or not?  He generated it.



> If it was why would it be able to stop continental blasts with that amount of power?



I'm pretty sure it just came from sephiroth's spell knowledge... he's kind of been floating in what's esentially the memories of the dead for 5 years.



> If the answer it's not a normal materia since it can stop such blasts why would it transfer at all with powerscaling?



What the fuck are you going on about?



> If the barrier isn't a materia have does it transfer to other materia in use with powerscaling and if it is how does it transfer to other materia when it's unnatural and strictly defensive?



Its his magical power out put, if he can generate it for defense, he can generate it in the same quantity for offense.

Not to mention, if we want to get really anal?  Its proof his magical power output is superior to weapon's, which would thus get powerscaled right on over to him in the first place.



> 48 times that of a 10 on the Richter scale if the output is believed
> I don't believe that. Lets ignore the output for and assume it's just overall energy that can be drawn over time.



Let's not ignore it, because that's not how its presented 



> Isn't it enough to power everything on our planet several times over?
> 48,000,000,000 kilotons of TNT = 4184000000 Terajoules
> 1 J= 1W
> 1TJ= 1,000,000,000,000 joules
> ...



Ryoma tried the same bullshit.

Didn't fly.

So what if the energy generation is really that high?  That's their world, not ours.

Not to mention?  They've been chucking around enough firepower to kill jenova since back on the ship.  You know, prior to being capable of even owning fucking irfit.

Prior to even really having access to any substantial materia at all.

Bitch at a minimum is city level durability without considering the fact the planet thought it would need 6 continent level monsters to deal with her.

Fact of the matter is?  Materia has a fuckton of energy behind it, the lifestream acts as the fucking GBE for the planet, and monsters that can dole out petatons of damage by colliding with the earth are running around and killable by harnessing mako to fire from a fucking cannon.

Mako's just that fucking potent.



> I mean it explains why cloud and sephy-chan are strong since it's injected into them , but it brings us alot of other problems.



Only problems exist are the ones in your head.



> Exactly how much would there have to be injected to get that insane result?



A fuckton, given the shit done to both him and sephiroth.

Hojo's experiment drenched cloud in the shit on top of jenova's cells.

Sephiroth had been getting it straight from before birth.



> Crisis Core's ending in particular bothers me where he falls to an army and even ignoring that ending there is zack's original death in ff7 where he's done in by 3 soldiers.



Just means they have faster guns and better piercing power.

That's the beauty of surface area and having a fucking grasp of physics 

Not to mention inconsistencies in stories occur all the time.

Like thanos and the police once more.

Feel free to nitpick the low ends, but do so for every series chuckles, because you're just being a cherry picking hypocrite here 



> And he could somewhat match sephy-chan.



What can I say, their weaponry just happens to be that advanced and its not like inconsistencies don't ever pop up in fiction.



> I take a lot of issues with the story if it's to be considered true.



Take issues all you want.

Doesn't change jackshit.

You can nitpick away, fact of the matter is, FFVII's just getting the same consideration with inconsistencies and feats any other series gets around here.

The feats exist, they are to be used.



Scorp A Derp said:


> This is actually kind of difficult. I'll just list off some shit I read in the thread, plus my personal opinions.
> 
> 
> Probably not. Definitely not if Dart has his Divine Dragoon form.
> ...



May want to lurk old timer 

Times change and pass you by when you're not around.

Because devil may cry is shit on by final fantasy in general.


----------



## Keollyn (Feb 28, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> \
> Plot devices?  They can and do occur, but they're not really present in the "let's make the heroes invulnerable and utterly weaken the villain to being weaker than a cripple" sort of nonsense.



Well I don't specifically mean like that, but I suppose.




> IX?  Not like the summons and zidane weren't fucking powerful to begin with anyway.



FFIX was one of the games I was originally going to quote that did it right. 



> I can go on and on, but the point remains, in FF games?  The plot devices and DEM evident in other games isn't generally present in the end game FFs as far as I remember outside V and III.



I disagree, but this really is besides the point.



> VIII has the benefit of limit breaks and para magic also being fairly powerful going off inference in the adel fight.
> 
> Can't use GFs without killing rinoa apparently, thus only leaving us with the next alternative low end option.
> 
> ...



That was more of a general statement. I wasn't speaking of any specific FF. But since we are speaking of FF8, none of that should have helped against the type of power Ultimecia had. But they had plot on their side, so it didn't matter.


> If the energy is contained inside of it... why the fuck wouldn't it be capable of powering a ga level spell with that level of power?



I don't even know what ga is. 



> Not like I'm saying the level 1 shit or ra level spells are wielding this level of energy, only the maxed out strongest spells can dole out everything at the materia's disposal.



Not really evidence. 




> The energy is there to be used, why wouldn't they be able to use it?



They can, of course. Just that nothing from evidence leads to them using half, most or maximum of that energy in a single spell. 

Simply, you found the energy they have available in them. From that point, the feats are what demonstrates how much they can use at once.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2013)

Keollyn said:


> FFIX was one of the games I was originally going to quote that did it right.



Indeed they did. 



> I disagree, but this really is besides the point.



Did say "that I remember"

My memory is far from infalliable.



> That was more of a general statement. I wasn't speaking of any specific FF. But since we are speaking of FF8, none of that should have helped against the type of power Ultimecia had. But they had plot on their side, so it didn't matter.



Something something self fulfilling prophecy and the power of love or some shit IIRC.



> I don't even know what ga is.



thunda*ga*, fira*ga*, etc



> Not really evidence.



No, but it posits the limit in which would obviously be placed upon it.



> They can, of course. Just that nothing from evidence leads to them using half, most or maximum of that energy in a single spell.



What evidence is required when you have the energy output?

This just old timey shit?  Because not seeing how this is a cogent stance nowadays.



> Simply, you found the energy they have available to them. From that point, the feats are what demonstrates how much they can use at once.



No, if I have the energy available to them, I have the energy they can channel into their best shit.

Really doesn't require any more thought than that.

Feats?  They have feats, they have an energy to powerscale the feats to, you can't even appeal to AOE, because j/cc covers that bullshit handily.


----------



## Keollyn (Feb 28, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Something something self fulfilling prophecy and the power of love or some shit IIRC.



Yeah, that be it.



> thunda*ga*, fira*ga*, etc



Damn, it's been that long since I've played a FF game?



> What evidence is required when you have the energy output?
> 
> 
> This just old timey shit?  Because not seeing how this is a cogent stance nowadays.
> ...



I'd seesaw with you on this, but this is why I mostly lurk the OBD these days. Debating is tediously tiring.

I'm just happy I got galactic level Goku out of this. I can definitely live with that


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2013)

Keollyn said:


> Yeah, that be it.



Still need to finish the last run through I had going now that I think about it...



> Damn, it's been that long since I've played a FF game?



No big deal really.

Like I said, my memory is hardly infalliable, can't expect yours or anyone elses to be either 



> I'd seesaw with you on this, but this is why I mostly lurk the OBD these days. Debating is tediously tiring.



Not a problem.  It really is tedious, and I'd prefer doing something else... but its 4:30 am and I can't fall asleep at a real time any longer 

Not really much you can do at this time of day and all.

Eh, probably could find SOMETHING better to do... 



> I'm just happy I got galactic level Goku out of this. And I can definitely live with that



Happy to be of assistance in that regard anyway


----------



## Keollyn (Feb 28, 2013)

I should go on CBR and fuck with their minds using this newfound knowledge. They eat this shit up.





> Not a problem. It really is tedious, and I'd prefer doing something else... but its 4:30 am and I can't fall asleep at a real time any longer
> 
> Not really much you can do at this time of day and all.



Wait you don't have class?


----------



## Keollyn (Feb 28, 2013)

Wait it's 4:30?!!


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2013)

Keollyn said:


> I should go on CBR and fuck with their minds using this newfound knowledge. They eat this shit up.



Sounds good.  Enjoy.



> Wait you don't have class?



Its 4:30 in the morning, not afternoon dude 

And, yeah, for me, its 4:30.  Don't know about where you live though.


----------



## Keollyn (Feb 28, 2013)

No I know that, we have the same time. I was asking because you said you can't sleep and sleep is usually a good thing before class.

Oh how wonderful it is.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2013)

I see.  Wasn't sure if you were in the same time zone or not, kind of forgot if we mentioned that at all.

Yeah, I have class around 1:45 today.  I luck out tuesday and thursday.

Monday and wednesday I'm typically screwed though. 

>goes to bed at 6 am
>has class at 9:25 am

Ah well, insomnia isn't that big a deal


----------



## scerpers (Feb 28, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> May want to lurk old timer
> 
> Times change and pass you by when you're not around.
> 
> Because devil may cry is shit on by final fantasy in general.



Just noticed by accident that you replied. And you're wrong. No one in the FF series is strong enough to take on DMC4 Dante. Except maybe Jecht.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2013)

Scorp A Derp said:


> Just noticed by accident that you replied. And you're wrong. No one in the FF series is strong enough to take on DMC4 Dante. Except maybe Jecht.



Wat.

I'm just going to assume you're kidding/trolling.

Because I'm too tired for this shit, and not tired enough to fall asleep.


----------



## Keollyn (Feb 28, 2013)

3 hours, wow. Sounds like my first job. Sleep was a commodity.

You know what they say, "You can sleep when you're dead"


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2013)

Yep, and I only sleep 2 of those hours before class 

Indeed, sleep is for the dead and rotting


----------



## Keollyn (Feb 28, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Wat.
> 
> I'm just going to assume you're kidding/trolling.
> 
> Because I'm too tired for this shit, and not tired enough to fall asleep.



I take his Jecht statement at legit. Jecht is manly tier+. Even if Dante was omnipotent, he isn't winning against that.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2013)

Keollyn said:


> I take his Jecht statement at legit. Jecht is manly tier+. Even if Dante was omnipotent, he isn't winning against that.



That goes without saying, but the rest of the post can't be anything but a joke


----------



## scerpers (Feb 28, 2013)

Sorry, but it's completely serious. And true.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2013)

Of course it is


----------



## shade0180 (Feb 28, 2013)

Wait Off-topic I just saw keollyn saying Goku was/is now galactic level how did he achieve that?


----------



## scerpers (Feb 28, 2013)

New DBZ movie has Goku achieving God status apparently.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> Wait Off-topic I just saw keollyn saying Goku was/is now galactic level how did he achieve that?



He meant in saiyuki.

Keollyn is a saiyuki fan.

If he refers to goku, its that son goku.


----------



## Keollyn (Feb 28, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> He meant in saiyuki.
> 
> Keollyn is a saiyuki fan.
> 
> If he refers to goku, its that son goku.



This. This. This.

Anyone who knows me, knows I never talk about "that" Goku.


----------



## shade0180 (Feb 28, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> He meant in saiyuki.
> 
> Keollyn is a saiyuki fan.
> 
> If he refers to goku, its that son goku.



Oh okay the one from the journey to west.. I thought he was talking about Dragon Ball with the movie and hype. thanks for clearing that up..



Keollyn said:


> This. This. This.
> 
> Anyone who knows me, knows I never talk about "that" Goku.



I've been lurking for quite some time but haven't really memorize anyones favorite fiction.. The ones I would know would Be OG and RH and blademaster(was that his name) he is definitely a Kira fan(GS)


----------



## Saint Saga (Feb 28, 2013)

Keollyn said:


> This. This. This.
> 
> Anyone who knows me, knows I never talk about "that" Goku.



Universal demon Gojyo incoming .


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 28, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Just means they have faster guns and better piercing power.
> 
> That's the beauty of surface area and having a fucking grasp of physics
> 
> ...


The word you are looking for is  then.
Really faster guns with more piercing power?


*Spoiler*: __ 




So is Cloud 410% mako certified yet?


----------



## Punchsplosion (Feb 28, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> The word you are looking for is  then.
> Really faster guns with more piercing power?
> 
> 
> ...



Really?  That is your big move?  Showing a clip of Aerith getting impaled by a character with superhuman attributes that was strong enough to skewer the Midgar Zolomn on a tree...


Slice the Junon cannon to ribbons...
So is Cloud 410% mako certified yet? 

And cleave skyscrapers in twain....
Link removed

And that is what you want to come back into this argument with?  What exactly does that prove?  That main cast members can die to the massively superhuman villain?  Good job.  That what Chaos has calc'd is completely invalid?  Not a chance.  Seeing as how that situation doesn't contradict the numbers put forth by any means.  We got another ChillyFreezer on our hands.  Go troll somewhere else.


----------



## Keollyn (Feb 28, 2013)

Saint Saga said:


> Universal demon Gojyo incoming .



The blade on Gojyo's chain is actually a universe. Canon fact.


----------



## Linkofone (Feb 28, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> Oh okay the one from the journey to west.. I thought he was talking about Dragon Ball with the movie and hype. thanks for clearing that up..
> 
> 
> 
> I've been lurking for quite some time but haven't really memorize anyones favorite fiction.. The ones I would know would Be OG and RH and blademaster(was that his name) he is definitely a Kira fan(GS)



You know what pisses me off? People calling Sun Wukong Son Goku ... 

Rant over.


----------



## Saint Saga (Feb 28, 2013)

Keollyn said:


> The blade on Gojyo's chain is actually a universe. Canon fact.



It's the one true canon.


----------



## CheesyFreak (Feb 28, 2013)

Linkofone said:


> Wait, beating as in beating the gods and creators and stuff?
> 
> 
> They can probably beat SCP Containment Breach right?



i may be mistaken, but didnt SCP have one SCP that was "god"?


----------



## Ulti (Feb 28, 2013)

343 isn't in Containment Breach unless there's been a recent update involving him.

If we have it so that it's Containment Breach only, Cloud and Sephiroth destroy them, if it's the actual primary canon foundation then the SCP's would stomp hard.

Also, the notation that Raiden has a snowballs chance against either Cloud or Sephiroth is fucking hilarious.


----------



## CheesyFreak (Feb 28, 2013)

i wanted to put fire emblem, but then i remembered they have gods and demigods


----------



## Calamity (Feb 28, 2013)

Hmm...some other *game verses* they can beat from my knowledge:
-Romance of the Three Kingdoms
-Dynasty and Samurai Warriors, perhaps even Warriors Orochi
-Sengoku Basara (gameverse)
-DmC
-Atelier Irisverse
-MGS
-Ar Tonelico 
-SilentHill verse (from what I know anyway)

Does anyone here know about Lunar, Legend of Heroes, Ys, Ragnarok, Growlanser?


----------



## Byrd (Feb 28, 2013)

MohsinMan99 said:


> Hmm...some other *game verses* they can beat from my knowledge:
> -Romance of the Three Kingdoms
> -Dynasty and Samurai Warriors, perhaps even Warriors Orochi
> -Sengoku Basara (gameverse)
> ...



They are not beating Growlanser or Lunar, that I know...


----------



## Linkofone (Feb 28, 2013)

I don't even think they can beat Maplestory let alone Ragnarok.


----------



## Calamity (Feb 28, 2013)

Oh yeah, they can take the Last Remnantverse as well. They had city busting remnants last I checked though the Conquerer should be vastly more powerful.


----------



## Linkofone (Feb 28, 2013)

Hunteri Heroci said:


> 343 isn't in Containment Breach unless there's been a recent update involving him.
> 
> If we have it so that it's Containment Breach only, Cloud and Sephiroth destroy them, if it's the actual primary canon foundation then the SCP's would stomp hard.
> 
> Also, the notation that Raiden has a snowballs chance against either Cloud or Sephiroth is fucking hilarious.



Haha if we go by canon, then most of the SCPs should be held in the same facility as 343. 

Can't wait until 682.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> The word you are looking for is  then.
> Really faster guns with more piercing power?
> 
> 
> ...



Yep.

Its a consistent explanation for shit we see in story chuckles.

More KE behind the bullets means they have more energy to work with, and the surface area in which they use to pierce a fucker is obviously much smaller given bullets from a fucker like yazoo could still rip right on through cloud, despite durability feats from before and after indicating in the movie alone he has much higher durability than what's required to be bullet proof.

And given energy is energy and durability isn't some split stat?

A consistent explanation can and will be thought up to reconcile the fact bullets can pierce a fucker despite having higher than the roughly building level durability required to be fucking bullet proof.

Don't like it?  Tough shit chuckles 



Hunteri Heroci said:


> Also, the notation that Raiden has a snowballs chance against either Cloud or Sephiroth is fucking hilarious.



The notion that feat chuckle fuck posted was superior to the casual slash sephiroth used to carve up the top of the shinra building in AC alone is even more so hilarious (which was basically a kiloton level shockwave ).

Fucker really has the audacity to claim that pithy strength feat was that energetic? 

I'd assume the machine raiden threw maybe a few thousand tons at most, and he didn't throw it all that fast, it'll be lucky to see city block level.

Its realistically closer to building level.


----------



## Ulti (Feb 28, 2013)

> More KE behind the bullets means they have more energy to work with, and the surface area in which they use to pierce a fucker is obviously much smaller given bullets from a fucker like yazoo could still rip right on through cloud, despite durability feats from before and after indicating in the movie alone he has much higher durability than what's required to be bullet proof.
> 
> And given energy is energy and durability isn't some split stat?
> 
> A consistent explanation can and will be thought up to reconcile the fact bullets can pierce a fucker despite having higher than the roughly building level durability required to be fucking bullet proof.



y'know, this isn't that farfetched. It's further supported by most if not all Final Fantasy games having some nifty tech, VII included.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 28, 2013)

Hunteri Heroci said:


> y'know, this isn't that farfetched. It's further supported by most if not all Final Fantasy games having some nifty tech, VII included.



Yep.  It works out rather brilliantly for FF games.

Some series?  Sure, its impossible to reconcile (fucking One Piece is a big offender of this bullshit, with 18th century guns no less), but for the series we can?  We can and do.

For those we can't, we call it inconsistent and go on with our day.


----------



## SHM (Feb 28, 2013)

MohsinMan99 said:


> Hmm...some other *game verses* they can beat from my knowledge:
> -SilentHill verse (from what I know anyway)



Do you think Cloud's mind is strong enough to survive Silent-Hill's mindfucks without external help?


----------



## Redterror (Feb 28, 2013)

Maybe they're just high powered, magic infused guns. Makes sense considering the stuff you see in FF VII.


----------



## TehChron (Feb 28, 2013)

SHM said:


> Do you think Cloud's mind is strong enough to survive Silent-Hill's mindfucks without external help?



Theyre not really that impressive. His angst would be adequate protection, imo.


----------



## Linkofone (Feb 28, 2013)

Still can't think of much.


----------



## shade0180 (Feb 28, 2013)

MohsinMan99 said:


> Hmm...some other *game verses* they can beat from my knowledge:
> -Romance of the Three Kingdoms
> -Dynasty and Samurai Warriors, perhaps even Warriors Orochi
> -Sengoku Basara (gameverse)
> ...


They won't beat Lunar because Lucia w/ Althena's power is still there at EoS.. Althena has enough power to raze the earth just by lifting her hand..... I'm pretty sure Lucia can do it too... that's what she was planning to do during the events of Eternal Blue...


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 28, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Yep.
> 
> Its a consistent explanation for shit we see in story chuckles.
> 
> ...


I've only watched the first level and shown it as to not spoiler myself.
unfortunately  my service gave me BlazBlue: Calamity Trigger instead of Rising. ;(

*Spoiler*: __ 



Basically the guns are a load of wank because you don't have any actually showings that show otherwise and the times they work it's not on characters at their best. 



Guns that can hit and pierce people with continent level durability and mach 300 speed huh?
So how come barret is so damn useless in advent children?
I mean his bullets should clearly not just be bouncing off that bahamut SIN  or doing next to nothing besides tickling it.
Same for vincent's. 
You're telling me the main characters use the weakest bullets and guns?
They are clearly continent level why aren't they working what so ever?
It's showed that they need cloud to do anything to it at all: distracted

How am I supposed to believe that the guns in ff7 are capable of what you say they are when it isn't even shown to be consistently able to do so.
Not to mention there are guns that are directly based on real life in ff7 and while piss weak still do some kind of damage. 

Believe it or not but I got a proper explanation for both times that guns worked and it was that Zack and Cloud were greatly weakened when they actually did work.

Death Penalty is the exception as it actually enables vincent to use attacks to damage those kinds of enemies with beams of energy.
*Dirge of cerberus *doesn't help here with it mainly using gunplay when finally the main character requires a weapon that actually meets what you describe and it's the highest end weapon he can use amped by his strongest form to boot and it doesn't even use bullets and it comes a year after advent children.
Perhaps a few rematchs are in order for these characters since they are that strong now.





Punchsplosion said:


> Really?  That is your big move?  Showing a clip of Aerith getting impaled by a character with superhuman attributes that was strong enough to skewer the Midgar Zolomn on a tree...
> 
> 
> Slice the Junon cannon to ribbons...
> ...


The main party cast aside from Cloud and Vincent are all useless.
That junon cannon is a simulation not actually applicable.
Midgar Zolomn  is laughably weak being able to even be impaled on a tree in the first place
cleaving skyscraper=/ country busting
All you did was show stuff Raiden by himself should be able to replicate easily.


----------



## Qinglong (Feb 28, 2013)

MohsinMan99 said:


> Hmm...some other *game verses* they can beat from my knowledge:
> -Romance of the Three Kingdoms
> -Dynasty and Samurai Warriors, perhaps even Warriors Orochi
> -Sengoku Basara (gameverse)
> ...



Ar Tonelico was really that weak? Haven't played it but I heard it mentioned they destroyed half a continent at one point, or something, or was that from having parts of a tower fall or whatever?


----------



## scerpers (Feb 28, 2013)

Alright, let's start with the easy game verse you can thing of.

Digimon. Can they beat that? They should, right?


----------



## shade0180 (Feb 28, 2013)

Scorp A Derp said:


> Alright, let's start with the easy game verse you can thing of.
> 
> Digimon. Can they beat that? They should, right?



Digimon world 3 has that digimon that can combine with earth....


----------



## scerpers (Feb 28, 2013)

What's its name?


----------



## shade0180 (Feb 28, 2013)

Scorp A Derp said:


> What's its name?



I forgot it was a long time since I played it... It was the final boss in the game..

There's also that digimon that combine with a destroyer or was that an aircraft carrier


----------



## Byrd (Feb 28, 2013)

You should have atleast included Chaos Vincent.. then they would be able to complete with many more verses


----------



## scerpers (Feb 28, 2013)

Oh, Gaiamon. I can't remember if he actually did anything or not. All I remember is that he fused with the Earth.


----------



## shade0180 (Feb 28, 2013)

Scorp A Derp said:


> Oh, Gaiamon. I can't remember if he actually did anything or not. All I remember is that he fused with the Earth.



He was about to combine but your character stop him before he did.. let's just say he has enough energy to absorb earth


----------



## Adamant soul (Mar 1, 2013)

Scorp A Derp said:


> Alright, let's start with the easy game verse you can thing of.
> 
> Digimon. Can they beat that? They should, right?



Milleniumon from the Brave Tamers games is universal and then multiversal as Zeedmilleniumon.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 1, 2013)

I know, Harvest moon


----------



## shade0180 (Mar 1, 2013)

What about the Zoid game? and Megaman series..


----------



## Qinglong (Mar 1, 2013)

Starforce stomps them horribly

The regular series/X isn't as strong however


----------



## shade0180 (Mar 1, 2013)

Brave Fencer Musashi?


----------



## Qinglong (Mar 1, 2013)

The only Musashi I know is destined to die no matter what game he's in 

Zoids has Ultimate Deathsaurer, it's durability is kinda questionable though unless you assume it can tank its own attack

EDIT: that was the show though... I don't know about the games


----------



## scerpers (Mar 1, 2013)

There was a Zoids video game? How do I miss out on this stuff?


----------



## shade0180 (Mar 1, 2013)

There was 3-4 in GBA and some other in other console/handheld I think


----------



## Calamity (Mar 1, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> Ar Tonelico was really that weak? Haven't played it but I heard it mentioned they destroyed half a continent at one point, or something, or was that from having parts of a tower fall or whatever?



 I should correct myself a bit there. Ar Tonelico 1 cause I haven't finished any others. I don't remember continents being destroyed but it is possible since I wasn't exactly looking for feats and it might be one of those offscreen ones.   





Scorp A Derp said:


> Alright, let's start with the easy game verse you can thing of.
> 
> Digimon. Can they beat that? They should, right?



 You must be joking. The games are where some of the most powerful Digimon come from, the most notable being the Millenniummon line.


----------



## scerpers (Mar 1, 2013)

I stopped watching after Tamers.


----------



## Saint Saga (Mar 1, 2013)

The wonderswan games have Zeed milleniummon, who is multiversal .


----------



## Qinglong (Mar 1, 2013)

MohsinMan99 said:


> I should correct myself a bit there. Ar Tonelico 1 cause I haven't finished any others. I don't remember continents being destroyed but it is possible since I wasn't exactly looking for feats and it might be one of those offscreen ones.
> 
> You must be joking. The games are where some of the most powerful Digimon come from, the most notable being the Millenniummon line.



Yeah, I think it was mentioned involving Mir, but I don't think they stated how it was done, and I do know in a bad ending of sort lots of land was destryoed by essentially mini colony drop, that's why I was asking

Not sure if it's accurate, but based on what I saw in the OVA from Lyner, they'd have no trouble with the main party


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 1, 2013)

Hmm can they beat contra?


----------



## Linkofone (Mar 1, 2013)

They can defeat many realistic games...

COD

C&C Generals

Can they beat Muramasa the Demon Blade? I haven't played that game in a while. 



How about Mabinogi?


----------



## Expelsword (Mar 1, 2013)

Oboro Muramasa has reality warping, I don't know any other feats, but Muramasa would be a cool game if anyone could calc anything...


----------



## Linkofone (Mar 1, 2013)

Oh ... well out of like 100 + games  we all named ... they could probably beat like less than half.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 1, 2013)

Its easier to name mangaverse they'd wreck.

Given it seems most popular video games series appear to have life wiping shit.


----------



## Linkofone (Mar 1, 2013)

And Gods ...

Even freaken Assassin's Creed has Goddesses.


----------



## Punchsplosion (Mar 3, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> The main party cast aside from Cloud and Vincent are all useless.
> That junon cannon is a simulation not actually applicable.
> Midgar Zolomn  is laughably weak being able to even be impaled on a tree in the first place
> cleaving skyscraper=/ country busting
> All you did was show stuff Raiden by himself should be able to replicate easily.



Okay, I was going to just leave this thread alone since Chaos was doing a fairly good job of repping FFVII.  However, after seeing that you are actively talking about how my tiny post was so easy for you to disprove to that troll Pecola, I will respond to your bs.

1.)  The uselessness of the main party has no baring in a thread devoted to Cloud and Sephiroth, nor does it support any argument about how ANY Metal Gear Army force wouldn't fail to get wrecked by the Mach 100+ casual speed of Cloud and Sephiroth and their Limit Breaks/Magic that wrecks supernatural creatures infused with the power of said Magic.

2.)  Simulations don't matter?  So, the X-Men aren't really using there own power in the Danger Room training sessions right?  Every single action they take is make believe.  This is the most pathetic attempt to refute the established abilities of the characters participating in this thread.  Your point would ONLY be valid if the events in the simulation contradicted any feats that the characters already possess.  I.E. They would be outliers.  However, Sephiroth and company have already displayed abilities far above this situation in Advent Children AND Dirge of Cerberus.

3.)  The Midgar Zolomn "feat" was thrown in there to show the power of a Sephiroth CLONE that was being directed to go places by Sephiroth himself with no where near the full power of his manipulator.  That was a casual act by a lower being.

4.)  The ease by which Sephiroth cleaved said skyscraper supports the little idea that Sephiroth has the ability to destroy much bigger targets if he put forth ANY effort whatsoever.

You can bitch and complain about your little in-game icons and the "looks" of the tech that Vincent uses to support your claims....

All the while failing to include the fact that Barret is using laser weaponry and particle cannons in his equipment list.  OR that the characters are seen fighting giant mechs like Proud Clod or Air Buster or Guard Scorpion that have lasers.  Or any of the regular machines that you do battle with when encountering Shinra that have the capability for flight and advanced tech.

Vincent's in-game guns from the original FFVII are incorporated into the character design of said person.  Ergo, Vincent is supposed to resemble a dark gunslinger type from the past.  Hell, he's older than every character in the main party by decades because of his backstory and condition.

Notice how Vincent's, and for that matter Yazoo's, guns from Advent Children look more futuristic?  Or Vincent's, Azul's, and the armies' firearms during the major cutscenes in Dirge of Cerberus?  Or the Shinra forces in Crisis Core?  I could go on and on.

However, your choice to focus on the aesthetics of a game made back in 1997 rather than the actual feats present throughout the entire compilation is laughable.  Every calc that Chaos has posted supports the feats given.  So, don't be butthurt that Cloud and Sephiroth could solo MG.  They could.  And tell Pecola/ChillyFreezer that I said hi.  Since that is all he can talk about.


----------



## Punchsplosion (Mar 3, 2013)

However, I do agree that Cloud and Zach were severely weakened when they were shot.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 3, 2013)

Huh, didn't realize you responded chuckles, my bad.

Didn't think you'd sneak in there with such weak excuses for rebuttals 



Unlosing Ranger said:


> I've only watched the first level and shown it as to not spoiler myself.



Let me put it like this?  Blade says the buck stops at MAYBE multi block if you push it for the absolute end game shit in MG.



> Basically the guns are a load of wank because you don't have any actually showings that show otherwise and the times they work it's not on characters at their best.



Is this just a summary of what you said in the post?

Because characters at their best or not, Cloud tanked that comet/flare combo from Yazoo/Loz (wish I could get my hands on the script that came with the collectors edition to further confirm those were the spells, but I sort of feel I can at least trust the FF wiki's admission of this)

Something has to account for the bullets harming them, and the higher KE and overall smaller piercing surface area for the bullets explain it.



> Guns that can hit and pierce people with continent level durability and mach 300 speed huh?



Cloud was taken by surprise and Zack was more or less surrounded on all sides.  Sure, they're fast, but if you have your back turned you can't see it (and you certainly won't hear it long until after being shot) or are surrounded on all sides?  Yeah, you're going to get hit.



> So how come barret is so damn useless in advent children?
> I mean his bullets should clearly not just be bouncing off that bahamut SIN  or doing next to nothing besides tickling it.



Bahamut Sin can't be more durable than Cloud now?  Sure, his Climhazzard put the bastard down, but that's a further merit in favor of his Climhazzard being fucking powerful.



> You're telling me the main characters use the weakest bullets and guns?
> They are clearly continent level why aren't they working what so ever?
> It's showed that they need cloud to do anything to it at all: distracted



Sin's just more durable than Cloud is all.  Nothing inconsistent with my explanation.

They're so damn durable, thus the bullets both require a smaller piercing surface area and higher speed for KE.



> How am I supposed to believe that the guns in ff7 are capable of what you say they are when it isn't even shown to be consistently able to do so.
> Not to mention there are guns that are directly based on real life in ff7 and while piss weak still do some kind of damage.



The inconsistencies are imagined chuckles.

Based on real life?  Maybe.  Actually real life guns and bullets?  Nope.  Welcome to steam punk and fantasy.  Just  because they look like the shit we have, doesn't mean theirs aren't superior.

Which they just so happen to be.

Don't like it?  Deal with it 



> Believe it or not but I got a proper explanation for both times that guns worked and it was that Zack and Cloud were greatly weakened when they actually did work.



Even weakened, Cloud survived those Comet/Flare combo on the roof, so that doesn't quite work.



> Death Penalty is the exception as it actually enables vincent to use attacks to damage those kinds of enemies with beams of energy.



And nothing about that actually disproves my stance on the more mundane FFVII tech chuckles.



> *Dirge of cerberus *doesn't help here with it mainly using gunplay when finally the main character requires a weapon that actually meets what you describe and it's the highest end weapon he can use amped by his strongest form to boot and it doesn't even use bullets and it comes a year after advent children.



Wow, what a lovely non sequiter that doesn't actually disprove my stance at all 



> Perhaps a few rematchs are in order for these characters since they are that strong now.



Sol still stomps their asses.



> The main party cast aside from Cloud and Vincent are all useless.



Nah, Yuffie canoncially handed Godo his ass.

Guess who's superior to at least the Turks 

By proxy?  The rest of the party is on Yuffie's level at least, for she wasn't exactly a stand out member story wise.

Not to mention, the shit in whirlwind maze applies across the board, the whole party, enjoy 



> That junon cannon is a simulation not actually applicable.



Debatable, but I wouldn't bother referencing it when other more impressive feats exist.



> Midgar Zolomn  is laughably weak being able to even be impaled on a tree in the first place



Nah, more like Sephiroth was just that strong as to generate enough force to impale it with something like wood of all stupid things.



> cleaving skyscraper=/ country busting



Who the fuck would claim their physical shit outside limits are country level anyway?  Sans the fact their weapons have a small enough surface area to hamr fuckers of that level of durability.


----------



## Fenrir (Mar 3, 2013)

I come on here to see Punchplosion, kicking ass and taking names. More similar to your sig than you think...just not as batshit lol.


----------



## Punchsplosion (Mar 3, 2013)

Alpha~13 said:


> I come on here to see Punchplosion, kicking ass and taking names. More similar to your sig than you think...just not as batshit lol.



Lol thanks!


----------



## Rene (Mar 4, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Its easier to name mangaverse they'd wreck.
> 
> Given it seems most popular video games series appear to have life wiping shit.


Funnily enough I can think of Negima characters that can beat them.


----------



## Linkofone (Mar 4, 2013)

Ok, I listed most of the games I played ... anyone else got more?

I mean Slen-

I mean ... most games have some sort of deity or God of some kind...


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Mar 4, 2013)

Lets see:

Star Ocean - Fuuuuuuuck no
Ys - Not 100% sure, though thing is that they lack speed
Legend of Heroes - Maybe, still a better game series. One that needs severe localization.
SMT - BWAHAHAHA
Growlanser - Again, not sure.
Nippon Ichi - Pfft...
Legend of Dragoon - Unfortunately
Legend of Legaia - Unfortunately 
Saga series - Not sure
Lost Odyssey - I barely played as is and that feat in the beginning with that tanking was rediculous as is. So I can't say.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 4, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> > 2.)  Simulations don't matter?  So, the X-Men aren't really using there own power in the Danger Room training sessions right?  Every single action they take is make believe.  This is the most pathetic attempt to refute the established abilities of the characters participating in this thread.  Your point would ONLY be valid if the events in the simulation contradicted any feats that the characters already possess.  I.E. They would be outliers.  However, Sephiroth and company have already displayed abilities far above this situation in Advent Children AND Dirge of Cerberus.
> 
> 
> *You'd have to prove it. The x-men have a lot more backing them and so does the danger room because it's very very real and sentient.
> ...


They are guns with small engines attached to the front of them, and what looks like you would would have on the end of a super soaker.

You're relying on aesthetics more than me.

Look at zacks's death.
And the shinra forces don't have futuristic looking guns at all they even come at Zack with Normal swords. 
Normal everyday helicopters.
No signs of any kind of magic being involved here with those guns or has been shown to me.


So don't give me the "their weapons look futury" bit.

His weapon in dirge of cerberus shown here.


I shouldn't have to point out that is basically the peacemaker with 2 more of everything possibly slightly smaller bullets.

here
Here you can actually get a good look at everything.
There are things that are obviously advanced, but it doesn't change the fact the unadvanced things are still working just fine.


Punchsplosion said:


> However, your choice to focus on the aesthetics of a game made back in 1997 rather than the actual feats present throughout the entire compilation is laughable.


FF7 also still uses coal as a secondary energy source when a single everyday materia can power our world for 3 years.
It's not an aesthetic when  aesthetics can define a gun which can define bullets, which can define what is ignited going by the hammer.

There is a hammer to ignite gunpowder.
The loading chamber determines the size of the bullets.
It's aesthetics also determines it's efficiency 



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Huh, didn't realize you responded chuckles, my bad.
> 
> Didn't think you'd sneak in there with such weak excuses for rebuttals
> 
> ...


To be expected of Sol.

Pretty sure Bahamut Sin is one of the weaker things I've seen.
He fired off two blasts and they knocked down two structures.


To put it in question form how much more durable would Sin have to be than Cloud to shrug off bullets with no effect that can rip through Cloud like paper when cloud has continental durability with your surface area and KE argument?
Go ahead and find that out and powerscale it to Cloud's attack 

You can even use official artwork to find out how much surface area the bullets can possibly have judging from the guns they are put into.
Keep in mind that if surface area is made smaller more fuel space for KE is sacrificed.
Basically this is how you can find out how much KE is contained in each bullet as apposed to some guess.
But then that brings the problem of the gunpowder having that kind of KE.
Lets assume it's all KE for this. I'm just going to say continental because the energy required for it is rather insane.

The guns have to be continental to absorb the recoil 100% assuming that it indeed does so. If the guns take of 50% of the recoil does that mean normal human fodder have  small continental durability?
The world is still following the laws of how guns work those have to be taken into account.
Gun design is srs business.

Since the bullets are also Continental now does that mean that the fodder are continental now as well if they get a bullet stuck in them.
How about civilians?

So should I chalk that up to another tree feat I should add to the list?

*Spoiler*: __ 



 Have you ever had anything like that asked before, just wondering.
I wouldn't bother with most of the smilies all'em broken


----------



## Fenrir (Mar 4, 2013)

Oh, but if I haven't stated yet, SMT shitsmears them across Metatron's behind. Then he gets the package deal bitch slap


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 4, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> To be expected of Sol.



Yep.



> Pretty sure Bahamut Sin is one of the weaker things I've seen.
> He fired off two blasts and they knocked down two structures.



That's nice, those were casual, and Bahamut's in general are mid tier to high tier summons in VII.

His mega flare or whatever the fuck Cloud cut through was far in excess of the ones he was spitting out at the buildings.

Which, thanks to shit like j/cc and powerscaling don't end up unimpressive anyway 



> To put it in question form how much more durable would Sin have to be than Cloud to shrug off bullets with no effect that can rip through Cloud like paper when cloud has continental durability with your surface area and KE argument?



No clue, but it'd be a fairly bizarre form of calc stacking in all honesty.



> You can even use official artwork to find out how much surface area the bullets can possibly have judging from the guns they are put into.



Only thing that matter surface area wise is the very tip.  Sniper Rounds?  Insignificant surface area.  Actually screwed around with those recently, ended up needing roughly city block level durability to no sell shit like that, at those slow as fuck speeds.

Lesser caliber bullets are the ones that require only buildingish level durability.



> Keep in mind that if surface area is made smaller more fuel space for KE is sacrificed.



The largest component of a KE equation is speed chuckles.  And the mass lost is negligible, for the mass being lost is at the very tip of the bullet.



> Basically this is how you can find out how much KE is contained in each bullet as apposed to some guess.



Its an explanation for why they can pierce a fucker when they shouldn't be, because durability isn't a split stat.  I don't need to be specific about it.

Sure, ignoring it like an inconsistency works, but if I can explain it away with some form of rationalization, it works out for the better.



> But then that brings the problem of the gunpowder having that kind of KE.
> Lets assume it's all KE for this. I'm just going to say continental because the energy required for it is rather insane.



You'd only require a few hundred thousand to millions joules 

Tell me... are you purposefully strawmanning my stance?  Or are you legitimately this incapable of understanding the correlation between surface area and the energy one can tank?



> The guns have to be continental to absorb the recoil assuming that it indeed does so. If the guns take of 50% of the recoil does that mean normal human fodder have  small continental durability?



The gun only requires the ability to survive a few hundred thousand to millions of joules if the surface area is small enough.

And their ability to absorb recoil could very well be far superior to our current means to make that level of manageable for humans to handle anyway.



> The world is still following the laws of how guns work those have to be taken into account.
> Gun design is srs business.



You are aware shit issued to shinra grunts would essentially be issued to fuckers like beginning of the story cloud right?  Guys that had potential to enter the soldier program?



> Since the bullets are also Continental now does that mean that the fodder are continental now as well if they get a bullet stuck in them.
> How about civilians?



...

hundreds of thousands to millions of joules for shit issued by Shinra to their grunts would literally be all that's required for the most part.



> So should I chalk that up to another tree feat I should add to the list?



You can feel free to just chalk getting harmed by bullets an inconsistency (much like in any other series) if you so desire, I'm just altering an alternative explanation that fits consistently into why the fuckers can be pierced by bullets when they're proven to be well above the durability required to be bullet proof.



> FF7 also still uses coal as a secondary energy source when a single everyday materia can power our world for 3 years.



You're still bitching about this?  Get over it, it exists, it will continue to exist, however much energy it can supply to us in a year is irrelevant to the fact they're that energetic.


----------



## Fenrir (Mar 4, 2013)

> FF7 also still uses coal as a secondary energy source when a single everyday materia can power our world for 3 years.


>Implying FF7 is a video game that takes shit like that into account.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 4, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> > You can feel free to just chalk getting harmed by bullets an inconsistency (much like in any other series) if you so desire, I'm just altering an alternative explanation that fits consistently into why the fuckers can be pierced by bullets when they're proven to be well above the durability required to be bullet proof.
> 
> 
> *Aside from the materia slotted ones possibly that's what I'd say... what does a materia slot look like?*
> ...


But I wanna have them put them in the guns and power them so it's more consistent and cool : tomacry


Alpha~13 said:


> >Implying FF7 is a video game that takes shit like that into account.


I don't think anything does really.
We got this by calculating something and reverse scaling back by division.
Reminds me of DBZ actually, probably why I have a problem with it.


----------



## Keollyn (Mar 4, 2013)

Alpha~13 said:


> >Implying FF7 is a video game that takes shit like that into account.



And that makes it any less backwards?


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Mar 4, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> You'd only require a few hundred thousand to millions joules



How small a bullet tip are we talking here?

Tanking seven teratons across a square meter or two of surface area comes out to double digit gigajoules for each square micrometer, which is the surface area of a single bacterium.

Unless the bullet tip is significantly smaller than that you'd be looking at multiple tons of TNT per shot.


----------



## Punchsplosion (Mar 4, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> You'd have to prove it. The x-men have a lot more backing them and so does the danger room because it's very very real and sentient.
> What's most telling about it is the condition the room itself is in after when it's not that kind of room.
> 
> Then say his clone, not sephiroth and again not powerful.
> ...



1.)  You want proof?  Okay.  How about the fact that the simulation creates a significant plot point for the rest of the game?

"Genesis and Angeal were close friends in Banora and despite Angeal's family being poor, the two grew up happily. During the Wutai War, Genesis became envious of Sephiroth's fame, and he and Angeal left for Midgar to join SOLDIER. The two eventually became 1st Class and were close friends with Sephiroth, the only two he socialized with in the company on a personal level. During a training exercise between the three, Genesis challenged Sephiroth to a one-on-one duel. The fight began to get out of hand and Angeal intervened. Genesis broke Angeal's SOLDIER sword with his own sword, and the top sliced into his shoulder as it shattered.
Genesis assured the two it was a minor wound, but the wound began to worsen rather than heal. The wound had triggered Genesis's flawed genetic structure to begin to degrade, and Hollander, knowing the secrets of Genesis's birth, told Genesis he could heal him. Secretly, Hollander desired vengeance on Hojo and Shinra, and wanted to prove Genesis was indeed the superior product of the Jenova Project."

For the rest of the game, Genesis is injured from that one "simulation".  Got anything else to say?

2.)  Sorry for not adding CLONE into my initial post.  These clones are referred to as "failures" from the man that attempted to remake Sephiroth with these subjects, Hojo.  Additionally, the "Clone" theory may be incorrect.  It seems to be the weakened form of Jenova that broke loose from Shinra Headquarters disguising herself as Sephiroth.

.

Either way.  The "clones" were physically inferior to Sephiroth and Jenova was no where near full strength.  And Chaos' post about impaling a creature with that size and durability through wood only supports the ridiculous strength that these characters have.  Beta is one of the most powerful fire spells in game.

Beta has has spell power equal to 3.375x the base magic damage.
Fire 3 has spell power equal to 4x the base magic damage.
Flare has spell power equal to 7.185x the base magic damage.

So, this early game creature can shoot off a spell that is almost equal to a GA-level.  It's fairly powerful and is renown in that area as a creature that makes the swamp nearly impassible.  It can also tail swipe a person far enough away to be considered "fled" from the fight.

3.)  It does support that he can damage more durable targets AND being able to destroy larger structures.  Durability comes in a couple of forms.  One being the straight up "threshold" a character's armor/physicality/magical resistance an opponent can withstand.  Also, it can be displayed in the amount of volume coupled with the density of a structure.  Sephiroth casually cleaving a skyscraper in twain means that with greater effort he could probably destroy something much larger.

4.)  I could just redirect you to the "steampunk" explanation that Chaos used earlier or point out that there are MULTIPLE instances of laser weaponry and directed energy weapons in this verse.  Or I could just say that, like in real life, the look of a weapon doesn't mean that it functions the same as another similar weapon.

So, you response to my statement about the guns being different in Dirge of Cerberus and Advent Children is to show me a picture of said weapons and say that the resemble a Super Soaker attachment?  And?  For all we know, that attachment hyper-accelerates the bullet as it exits the barrel to undefined speeds.  Point being?  The are using advanced tech.  Their guns are most likely more effective.

Once again?  The pictures of the revolver and ALL of Vincent's weaponry have been RETCONNED to reflect what the actually look like in the FFVII universe.

For fuck's sake Death Penalty went from this...



To this....



What you believe to be "standard" 20th century tech based on icons and pictures from a game made in 1997 are false.  They have since been retconned and redefined.  Therefore, you don't get to harp on the look they had in the original game because it doesn't exist anymore.  Considering that Vincent's "handgun" is over half the size of his arm....

...and couldn't feasibly exist in the modern era at all, I believe you should rethink your position in this debate.



Yeah totally normal weaponry.



Don't forget Azul's gun.



Or Yazoo's.

Round size also means jackshit.  The AA12 Shotgun can fire Frag-12 grenade rounds that look exactly like straight up shotgun shells.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQYp9fOJ9VI&playnext=1&list=PLF201E8C5C98092C7&feature=results_video[/YOUTUBE]

Those rounds can go through steel plate.  Looks don't matter.  It is what is inside the casing that does.  For all we know, given the tech they have access to, each regular bullet could be full of some new form of gunpowder that packs 10x the energy generation of anything we could produce of the same caliber.


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## DeathScream (Mar 4, 2013)

well they cant solo TES

VIVEC alone can finger rape both 2 without problem


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## Punchsplosion (Mar 4, 2013)

Or as Chaos says....the tip of the rounds could be smaller.

Or it could be a combination of better gunpowder/smaller round tips.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 4, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> > 1.)  You want proof?  Okay.  How about the fact that the simulation creates a significant plot point for the rest of the game?
> >
> > "Genesis and Angeal were close friends in Banora and despite Angeal's family being poor, the two grew up happily. During the Wutai War, Genesis became envious of Sephiroth's fame, and he and Angeal left for Midgar to join SOLDIER. The two eventually became 1st Class and were close friends with Sephiroth, the only two he socialized with in the company on a personal level. During a training exercise between the three, Genesis challenged Sephiroth to a one-on-one duel. The fight began to get out of hand and Angeal intervened. Genesis broke Angeal's SOLDIER sword with his own sword, and the top sliced into his shoulder as it shattered.
> > Genesis assured the two it was a minor wound, but the wound began to worsen rather than heal. The wound had triggered Genesis's flawed genetic structure to begin to degrade, and Hollander, knowing the secrets of Genesis's birth, told Genesis he could heal him. Secretly, Hollander desired vengeance on Hojo and Shinra, and wanted to prove Genesis was indeed the superior product of the Jenova Project."
> ...


And it still works like a gun in function.
 It doesn't exist because it's stupidly impractical that's the fantasy aspect of it.
Way more than 10x you see that post above you?
this is the death penalty btw not that and it shoots energy beams


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 4, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Or as Chaos says....the tip of the rounds could be smaller.
> 
> Or it could be a combination of better gunpowder/smaller round tips.


The problem is how far you'd have to take it for both.
How small is the tip, size an atom?
That's taking it awful far for an assumption not to mention laborious just to make one bullet.
Gun powder alone? Such a huge amount of energy you wonder why they just don't use normal explosives to take things out.


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## Punchsplosion (Mar 4, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> And it still works like a gun in function.
> It doesn't exist because it's stupidly impractical that's the fantasy aspect of it.
> Way more than 10x you see that post above you?
> this is the death penalty btw not that and it shoots energy beams



Considering that Vincent's regular handgun can pierce through targets that have the durability to withstand laser fire (as seen in the fights with Azul), I would say the weapons aren't normal.

Once again, the look of the weapon matters little from the outside.  The internal components of the gun matter.  The composition of the bullets matter.  Their access to advanced weaponry suggests that their regular firearms are more than likely more efficient and potent.

GRANTED....it is just speculation.  So, I will avoid the discussion about the firearms from now on.  

Really?  The simulation proves nothing?

We have Sephiroth's abilities in previous games.  We have showings for Genesis, Angeal, Cloud, and Zach that display these same abilities.  We have visible damage within the simulation from another combatant.  And then....

here

...Zach's sword is destroyed by the holographic "Sephiroth" but the sword is still broken in the real world.  So, I don't want to hear anymore complaints about it not being real.  Irrefutable.

Point being?  They still solo MG.  Speed, power, magic, and durability.

I say durability because Genesis tanked those blade beams which casually wrecked the Junon canon in the simulation.  Of which, I have proved you cannot deny the validity of the feats presented in the duel.


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## Punchsplosion (Mar 4, 2013)

Additionally, Death Penalty in the original FFVII game shoots regular bullets.  It's called a redesign.

here

Yet, in Dirge of Cerberus, it's now an energy weapon.  It's called a retcon.  Which means, that what you believe about the normalcy of the other weapons in his arsenal can be called into question.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 4, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> > Once again, the look of the weapon matters little from the outside.
> 
> 
> *Except it does matter*
> ...


Actually I'm not sure about Durability with HF blades in play, I mean they are more durable, but would that durability matter?
Wonder how far that could be taken.


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## Shin Kouji (Mar 4, 2013)

Who in the blue hell said that the MG verse can defeat Cloud or Sephiroth? let alone the likes of Chaos Vincent.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 4, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> Additionally, Death Penalty in the original FFVII game shoots regular bullets.  It's called a redesign.
> 
> here
> 
> Yet, in Dirge of Cerberus, it's now an energy weapon.  It's called a retcon.  Which means, that what you believe about the normalcy of the other weapons in his arsenal can be called into question.



Except there are clearly normal weapons still. 
His best weapon and likely one of the best guns it isn't Normal to begin with.
"Death Penalty's power is boosted after every enemy it kills. Due to a glitch, if enough enemies are killed, the Death Penalty can kill any enemy with a single hit, including superbosses. " For the best that it changed otherwise it would be dismissed as game mechanics and never be used.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 4, 2013)

Keollyn said:


> And that makes it any less backwards?



Nope, but it doesn't really matter, the point's irrelevant.  We see the results of the feats on screen, we know they can fight some alien bitch from space the planet decided to counter by creating 6 continent level monsters after having arrived onto the planet riding a fucking meteor and kill her as early as before crossing continents.  Shit like this alone tells us the energy generated by the materia is far above shit we'll ever have access to and a far more efficient source of generating energy.

Funny thing about fiction?  Think hard enough about any particular fiction, you can propose a bunch of shit that doesn't make sense and write it off due to the general physics being absurd.

Sort of like how technically, our heroes in any given fiction with metahuman feats should more or less be causing global starvation to produce attacks on the levels they do on a regular basis, hell, even once per combat.

Not even Toriko accurately depicts the level of energy they consume vs the level of energy they produce.  Nitpicking the level of energy an efficient power source generates is just like one of these asinine rebuttals.



Unlosing Ranger said:


> Aside from the materia slotted ones possibly that's what I'd say... what does a materia slot look like?



Cloud's buster sword had 2 slots, his sword has 2 visible holes in them.

Those are more or less materia slots.



> But I wanna have them put them in the guns and power them so it's more consistent and cool : tomacry



I suppose that can work in theory.  No less a stretch of the imagination than higher KE and smaller surface area and shit.

Side note?  I'm happy to see you were smart enough to drop the recoil rubbish.

Because, unless you wanted carving the shinra building up to be a continent level feat, we're probably best off assuming their technology is better capable of absorbing recoil 



> I don't think anything does really.
> We got this by calculating something and reverse scaling back by division.
> Reminds me of DBZ actually, probably why I have a problem with it.



You can have every problem you want with something, you're just going to have to grin in bear it, or else you just end up looking like a hypocrite when you let off other series for similar shit being used.



Unlosing Ranger said:


> The problem is how far you'd have to take it for both.
> How small is the tip, size an atom?
> That's taking it awful far for an assumption not to mention laborious just to make one bullet.
> Gun powder alone? Such a huge amount of energy you wonder why they just don't use normal explosives to take things out.



That shit's honestly inconsequential.

Whatever is required to explain an inconsistency can and will be used, barring times when it just can't be reconciled and written off (like in OP with 18th century tech even being remotely useful against a fucker like Whitebeard or similar top tiers)





			
				Eldritch Sukima said:
			
		

> How small a bullet tip are we talking here?
> 
> Tanking seven teratons across a square meter or two of surface area comes out to double digit gigajoules for each square micrometer, which is the surface area of a single bacterium.
> 
> Unless the bullet tip is significantly smaller than that you'd be looking at multiple tons of TNT per shot.



I'd assume something like nano or some shit probably.

I'm just trying to reconcile an inconsistency, I prefer not writing them off as impossible to fit into the feats of the universe unless its the only option available.


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## Punchsplosion (Mar 4, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Again the swords are real nothing else was the only injury that happened was from something real.



No buddy.  The clip with Zack and Holographic Sephiroth proves that what happens in the simulation is real.  HS's sword was not real (notice how it dissipates when the simulation ends?  Yet, it cut Zack's in twain.  That persisted through into the real world.  Additionally, Angeal had to save Zack from a fatal blow.  Egro, everything that occurs in the Shinra "Danger Room" actually has physical repercussions.   

Therefore, the duel between the 3 S.O.L.D.I.E.R First-Class accurately displays what they are capable of.  To deny so is a serious affront to logic and perception. Did you even watch the linked video?


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## Punchsplosion (Mar 4, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> A creature doesn't have to be that strong to do that though nor durable to a point..
> I meant it has more to do with a hard object hitting a softer object.
> The Tree was the harder object that it was speared on it the snakes flesh yielded
> Tree's durability>Midgar Snake by that logic
> ...



Your concept of physics is flawed my friend.

Force and velocity can propel an less durable object with a cutting edge through a more durable target.  Is glass more durable than a human skull or neck?

"Kari and Tory obtained a pig spine with skin and muscle, trimmed it down to resemble an elongated neck, and attached a dummy head. The Build Team then obtained several 1⁄8 in (3.2 mm) thick glass panes that conformed to building codes for houses in tornado-prone areas, and began throwing them at "Neck Man" by hand. They had difficulty reaching a suitable combination of speed and accuracy; none of their throws inflicted more than a minor wound.
Tory then built a frame to attach to a pickup truck, with a heavy 14.3 lb (6.5 kg) glass sheet loosely mounted to hit Neck Man edge-on but break loose just before impact. The first attempt, at 80 mph (129 km/h) ? the equivalent kinetic energy of a light pane traveling 300 mph (483 km/h) in an F5 tornado ? sliced the head off. A second test at 40 mph (64 km/h) (150 mph (241 km/h) for a light pane in a less powerful F2 tornado) also cut completely through the neck. However, the glass did not break out of its holder, indicating that the momentum of the truck may have affected the result.
Back at the workshop, the team built a rig to throw 1⁄4 in (6.4 mm) thick panes (twice as heavy as the original ones) at 70 mph (113 km/h). After several tries, they were able to score a hit that completely and cleanly severed the head, leading them to declare the myth confirmed."

I can punch glass and break it with ease.  I cannot punch a neck or skull and break it.  High velocity and force can make that wooden tree spike go through a much more durable Midgar Zolom by virtue of real world physics.  And the fact that it would only have to be the Zolom being propelled due to the 3rd law of motion while the tree remained stationary to impale it debunks your claim.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 4, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> > Cloud's buster sword had 2 slots, his sword has 2 visible holes in them.
> >
> > Those are more or less materia slots.
> 
> ...


If we could get a close up shot on just one bullet we might be able to say it's possible.
Of course I'm not even sure they even animate the bullets in there now that I mention it.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 4, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Awful big holes...



Nah, nothing larger than what we saw throughout AC honestly.  Either way, only thing I can think of, and it is visually consistent.



> I'm not unreasonable.
> I'd prefer if it was that way would make more sense for the materia and the guns.
> But obviously every gun isn't going to have that unless it is all retconned.



I'm aware.

I'd prefer author's making our lives simple, but they honestly don't give a darn typically outside "this looks cool" as far as I can infer.  Shit like dying from free fall when you've survived even a blow that'd flatten a fucking brick wall, bullet wounds for fuckers that have feats enough where they're are more than bullet proof... just kind of annoying for this hobby in general.  So, you make due and come up with your own, hopefully consistent to some extent explanations without going insane.

Not like every gun needs a materia slot, some fuckers are obviously going to still be using antiques, that may or may not have slots.  Doesn't matter in particular, just needs reconciled somehow.



> I was drifting towards that naturally.
> Continent level concrete, planet level continent. Something like that,Jeez I'm not going into that at all.



I mean, not like super alloys and building materials don't exist throughout fiction, but in this case, that's probably an overanalysis of something that's generally overlooked.



> Have you just done straight calcs for Normal materia in attacks before to see how well it matches? Or is there really nothing you can use?



Straight calcs?  Nothing to really do with to my knowledge.  All I have to go off is the yield I found going off the huge materia and the fact the party has essentially been able to carve up Jenova since junon, and they only had shit upwards of shiva and possibly some ra spells if you assumed they grew through combat quickly.

And the bitch at a low end sports city level durability, with implications of much higher via both powerscaling and just the fact the planet though "shit, I need to create 6 of these monsters to deal with this".

Luckily for the planet, the ancient's weren't as fucking weak as it seemed to believe they were if it was really going that overkill.



> If we could get a close up shot on just one bullet we might be able to say it's possible.
> Of course I'm not even sure they even animate the bullets in there now that I mention it.



Something like that would be nice to see, but I haven't seen it onscreen yet in ffvii myself, so its a long shot that it'll happen.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 4, 2013)

Punchsplosion said:


> No buddy.  The clip with Zack and Holographic Sephiroth proves that what happens in the simulation is real.  HS's sword was not real (notice how it dissipates when the simulation ends?  Yet, it cut Zack's in twain.  That persisted through into the real world.  Additionally, Angeal had to save Zack from a fatal blow.  Egro, everything that occurs in the Shinra "Danger Room" actually has physical repercussions.
> 
> Therefore, the duel between the 3 S.O.L.D.I.E.R First-Class accurately displays what they are capable of.  To deny so is a serious affront to logic and perception. Did you even watch the linked video?



I forgot about that.
Okay yea I guess so.
Though it being  so isn't of much service to you.
It's been a long while since I played Crisis Core I'm playing all of this off of memory.


Punchsplosion said:


> Your concept of physics is flawed my friend.
> 
> Force and velocity can propel an less durable object with a cutting edge through a more durable target.  Is glass more durable than a human skull or neck?
> 
> ...


Actually you can punch a neck or skull and break it, Not easy but you can.
Still really don't know what it proves besides it can get impaled on a tree since that's pretty much it's only showing. While you are right a less durable object can pierce an object that is more durable you don't have much in the ways of proof. And on the other end at a certain point durability should factor in on something  as simple as a tree even if sharp.
That's more to do with what we were talking with the bullets earlier anyway.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 4, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Nah, nothing larger than what we saw throughout AC honestly.  Either way, only thing I can think of, and it is visually consistent.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's pretty much all I got.
Didn't know this was the current standing of FF7 here now.
If it was the old standing it would be pretty different.
Wouldn't mind if you gave Metal Gear Rising a look later though should have plenty of stuff to use and somekind of explanation for most of it.
Well, besides nanomachines.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 4, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> That's pretty much all I got.
> Didn't know this was the current standing of FF7 here now.



I figured as much when I had to explain where the feats and shit were coming from 

I've done a ton of FF shit, not just FFVII, so... if you don't know the feats, might want to acquaint yourself with more of the shit I have linked on the wiki profiles, because those are more or less up to date feat wise and argument wise (though a few of them I'm still kind of debating with fuckers over like FFIII or V).



> If it was the old standing it would be pretty different.



Of course, but FF overall was underrated as fuck (to the point where the the missed feats were kind of fucking hilarious honestly).  Kind of like how Zelda has been getting a steady boost as feats are actually evaluated.



> Wouldn't mind if you gave Metal Gear Rising a look later though should have plenty of stuff to use and somekind of explanation for most of it.
> Well, besides nanomachines.



I've already been linked a few feats for it anyway.

I'll get around to it, just kind of busy.  Advanced research isn't exactly a favorite class of mine, and I kind of want to finish that as painlessly as possible


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 4, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I figured as much when I had to explain where the feats and shit were coming from
> 
> I've done a ton of FF shit, not just FFVII, so... if you don't know the feats, might want to acquaint yourself with more of the shit I have linked on the wiki profiles, because those are more or less up to date feat wise and argument wise (though a few of them I'm still kind of debating with fuckers over like FFIII or V).
> 
> ...


FF 5? That's pretty clear cut as far as things go Exdeath is a big deal.
And it's not as nearly as complicated as FF7.
I tried playing 3 but got bored of it can you sum it up?

Codecs in MG tend to explains things well enough on a technical level so it shouldn't be that painful.
Well besides listening to hours of codecs that flesh things out.
They tend to be fun however, because  they know it's a pain.
MG is probably one of the more suited verses for the OBD and I hardly see it used. MGR itself is short though unlike most Metal Gear games.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 4, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> FF 5? That's pretty clear cut as far as things go Exdeath is a big deal.



Nah, Exdeath is solid as fuck.

His profile basically reflects the feats as I've discussed them with Dandy over MSN.

More like I'm trying to figure out how powerful the cast outside Galuf is without having played the fucking game and finding the endeavor a bitch.



> I tried playing 3 but got bored of it can you sum it up?



The debate?  Or the plot?

Because the plot is you're basically trying to restore balance to the world by restoring the crystals, ending the timestop enduced by a mage that's afraid of death, and then fighting and defeating some planet busting cloud of (insert "light/darkness") that more or less comes out of no where and orchastrated the entire plot to destroy shit.

The debate is over where the fuck everyone else not named Noah (basically the most powerful mage ever in the back story or some shit, been a while) or the Cloud of Darkness/Light stand.



> Codecs in MG tend to explains things well enough on a technical level so it shouldn't be that painful.
> Well besides listening to hours of codecs that flesh things out.
> They tend to be fun however, because  they know it's a pain.
> MG is probably one of the more suited verses for the OBD and I hardly see it used. MGR itself is short though unlike most Metal Gear games.



Like I said, I'll get around to it, but I'm also an incredibly lazy bastard 

I'll probably do the shit faster than most requests though.


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## Punchsplosion (Mar 4, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> I forgot about that.
> Okay yea I guess so.
> Though it being  so isn't of much service to you.
> It's been a long while since I played Crisis Core I'm playing all of this off of memory.
> ...



Well, it does prove that Sephiroth could just sit back and spam Skyscraper-busting energy beams from his sword at the MG crew at Mach 100+.

And that Cloud and Co (Genesis, Angeal, Zack) can take that kind of punishment without dying.  So, read into what you will.

Additionally, given what the feats are for the verse as a whole.  You don't get to assume low-end stats for creatures that are the result of Mako exposure or being created from Mako itself.  Cloud and the SOLDIERS have mad durability from their Mako injections.  The Summons, WEAPONS, and Giant Monsters have even more durability than the latter in a fair amount of instances.

Otherwise, there is a fair amount of speculation going from both sides.  It was fun debating with you, though.  If Chaos gets onto the Metal Gear Series, it will get a boost.  He's pretty good at fleshing out the consistent feats to ascertain the standings of a verse.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 4, 2013)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Nah, Exdeath is solid as fuck.
> 
> His profile basically reflects the feats as I've discussed them with Dandy over MSN.
> 
> ...


In my experience playing the DS version the main party stays pretty strong throughout but.
The cloud of darkness pretty much does come out of nowhere unlike exdeath and I can frankly say the party has no business fighting her unlike everything else in the game and actually had to be saved and gain outside power at the same time to stand a chance several times over.


> In front of the black vortex, the warriors confront Xande and defeat him. After he dies, they face the Cloud of Darkness, who was manipulating Xande without his knowledge to reduce the world to nothingness. They fail to defeat their enemy and are killed by her particle beam.
> Fortunately, with the light of the five allies who had helped them before, they are revived and continue into the World of Darkness. Within, they defeat four malevolent beings, who are guarding the crystals' dark counterparts known as the Guardians of the Dark Crystals. The crystals reveal the four Warriors of the Dark, who stopped the light from engulfing their world many years ago.
> 
> When they all face the Cloud of Darkness again, the four Warriors of the Dark sacrifice themselves so that the Warriors of Light are able to defeat their adversary. With one last battle, the Cloud of Darkness is defeated, and the heroes and their allies return to their homes.


Though even I don't get that frozen time bit when everyone isn't literally frozen in time. and still can move around and such.
They couldn't have found a way to say stop the world from aging?

These two are tough to rank, but if it's stuff you heard before I don't know what to tell ya.


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## scerpers (Mar 5, 2013)

Jesus Christ you guys.


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## Fenrir (Mar 5, 2013)

Why does everything that involves Sephy-chan evolve into a shitstorm no matter what site you go to?


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## Punchsplosion (Mar 5, 2013)

Alpha~13 said:


> Why does everything that involves Sephy-chan evolve into a shitstorm no matter what site you go to?



Because people hate the fanboys that are associated with the character.  Don't get me wrong.  I like Sephiroth as a villain.  However, he used to get WANKED far beyond his actual abilities.  It has only been recently through careful diligence on Chaos' part that Sephy (and by extension, all of FFVII) has received the appropriate power increase.


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