# Jinato vs Obigato



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 18, 2013)

Jinato is a fusion of Jiraiya and Minato. Obigato is a fusion of Obito and Nagato.



> *Knowledge:* Full for both sides.
> 
> *Area and distance:* Sannin battlefield; long range.
> 
> *Restrictions:* none.



Jinato can do everything Minato and Jiraiya can do whereas Obigato can do everything Obito and Nagato can do.


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## Trojan (May 18, 2013)

Frog Song GG.


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## Bonly (May 18, 2013)

Is Obigato allowed to use his Kamui and one or more of the Rinnegan abilities at the same time?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 18, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Is Obigato allowed to use his Kamui and one or more of the Rinnegan abilities at the same time?



Yeah, but if you can make an argument for it. For example he can't go ahead and say he can use ST while placing a lot of focus on Kamui he can use ST right away.


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## Kai (May 18, 2013)

Chibaku Tensei


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## joshhookway (May 18, 2013)

Frog gg.

Minato warps the black orb of CT


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## Bonly Jr. (May 18, 2013)

This is hardly fair.


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## RBL (May 18, 2013)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Obigato wins, obito himself solos


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## The Prodigy (May 18, 2013)

In other words, it's a sage mode user with Hiraishin vs someone who can use Rinnegan to it's fullest extent with Kamui.

Gotta go with the 5 second gap, that can abuse s/t jutsu... this is just too broken.


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## Joakim3 (May 19, 2013)

_Kamui_ + _Shinra Tensei_ is too broken..... Its quite literally uncounterable to anyone not named Rikudo or Datara


Jinato gets stomped into oblivion


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## Rocky (May 19, 2013)

lol at Sage Mode Minato.

Seriously, sound doesn't trigger Obito's intangibility. If he cannot find a way to circumvent the Kamui-Shinra Tensei combination, then he'll stall until the Frogs prep Gamarinsho. Nagobito or whatever isn't _ever_ catching Jinato with his reflexes and physical ability enhanced by natural energy. 

Full Knowledge on Chibaku Tensei makes it simple to counter. Minato alone possess the Chakra capacity to warp Mountain-Sized Bijuu Bombs. By tossing a Kunai up, which will eventually make its way to the core, he can send it away before it grows too large. Hell, in Sage Mode, I doubt it can get big enough to where it's out of his teleporting capacity.

Frog song is a pass on Kamui...and that makes me give this to Jinato. Sage Mode Minato is nearly as broken, if not more broken than Sage Mode Hashirama. He would be pretty much to fast to even fight, and he could pretty much warp anything at will without growing tired. Perfect Susano'o? Send it away. Shinsuusenju? Adios. Juubidama? Here have it back.  Seriously, how would you even stop him? As long as he keeps a Kunai on his possession, he could warp anything at anytime. If you're a durability freak, he frog songs you. If you're not, then you probably aren't fast enough to fight him.


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## Bonly (May 19, 2013)

Obigato should win more times then not then. He can deal with Jinato's speed,ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu. The fire power up the Rinnegan along with all of Nagato's+Obito reactions should win the match.


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## DaVizWiz (May 19, 2013)

Nature Energy will surely increase the scale capacity of his warping techniques, which makes hitting Minato with anything virtually impossible- it's all warped. The sensory ability also allows for no blindsides, aside from his vibration detection, Jiraiya's barrier detection, and Shima's tongue. 

He'll also now have faster shunshin capacity, to combine with his ridiculous reaction speed. He'll also be stronger, so the throwing speed of his kunai will increase. That, coupled with Jiraiya's Katons, Numa, and Ma/Pa's various techniques- Obito surely dies via Frog Song or Frog Call/FCD combination.

An initial BT/ST is avoided by throwing a kunai backwards before such is possible, as Minato has full knowledge. He can also tag the ground while he's being pulled, or simply drop a kunai. Obito has virtually no chance at landing a lethal blow on a full knowledge Minato with Jiraiya's enhancements- which include several different mid-range techniques and shadow clones. Minato keeps Obito warping a large margin of the time through the use of Yomi Numa, high-speed katons, and Food Cart Destroyers. If Jinato's clones can also warp, this battle isn't a battle. 

In the end, Frog Call/FCD or Frog Song will get him.


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## Okodi (May 19, 2013)

This fight comes down to 2 things; Frog song and Chibaku Tensei.

Frog Song can't absorbed and can't be phased. Phasing it would require five minutes of phasing in order to avoid the sound. If Obigato can do that then or disrupt the sound in some way (other than using ear-plugs) then he will have a fighting chance agains Jinato. Absorbing/STing the jutsu is impossible based on the manga. Though Temari has be able to blow away sound vs Tayuya. Also 5 mins is quite a long time and the Frog song is known to be really consuming.

Chibaku Tensei won't be a problem. Though Jinato would not possess Naruto/Kurama's raw power to break free from it, they would have the means of getting away from its range quickly through teleportation. Here the fact that Jinato doesn't have to worry about change state, he can just casually teleport away. Using CT is also noted to be very chakra draining so its use is limited and causes massive strain.



In the other categories they would be evenly matched, though Jinato will now be much more effective in taijutsu as he now not only has the high SM movement speed but also the high level reflexes and natural speed meaning he has increased a lot in this regard compared to Obigato.

I would give this fight due to CT being easier to counter than Frog song and the fact that the movement speed be get a multiplying effect as well. I see it as Jinato has the slight edge here and would win. But one slip and your toast.


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## copydog123 (May 19, 2013)

frog song can be dealt with shinra tensei.

The song itself is simply vibrations through the air. Shinra tensei can instantly blast that very medium (air) propagating the sound.


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## Kai (May 19, 2013)

The black orb can be protected from any interference by Kamui.


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## Grimm6Jack (May 19, 2013)

Chibaku Tensei + Kamui to warp away anything(including Kunais with S/T barriers) = GG

Full Knowledge = Frog Song useless because of Shinra Tensei.


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## Gin Ichimaru (May 19, 2013)

Frog Song? With full knowledge? How will the frogs prep it when everything Jinato can do to Obito gets absorbed, and Obito can simply warp to frogs?

Also, sound genjutsu can be countered by a fan, so ST blowing everything away will counter it.

And there's the possibility Obito can just break out of Frog Song.

Yes, I'm calling him Obito, not Obigato since Obito + Nagato is basically current Obito anyway


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## titantron91 (May 19, 2013)

Full knowledge gives this to Obigato

Frog Song takes too much prep time and Obito isn't the type to stall.


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## Rocky (May 19, 2013)

Kai said:


> The black orb can be protected from any interference by Kamui.




How is that?


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## Joakim3 (May 19, 2013)

CT is still a one shot, as unlike Juubi/Bijudama... it isn't a projectile weapon, it's not fired _at_ Minato but _away_ from him. And I' m pretty sure with a Obito Obigato hybrid chakra reserves Obito Obigato would make CT far beyond warping size even for an SM S/T user

Secondly..... there is simply *ZERO WAY* around the fabled _Kamui_ + _Shinra Tensei_ combo short of Jinato defensively teleporting every conceivable second.... (which doesn't help chakra wise or allow him to attack)

If Jinato he even attempts to use a generic ninjutsu he gets obliteraed via a boss sized _Shinra Tensei_ the moment he stops moving, and with full knowledge Obito Obigato is going aerial with the 3-legged Bird lesson the chance of a _Hirashin_ blindside even more

Obito Obigato stomps....


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## eyeknockout (May 19, 2013)

obito > minato
obito >>> jiraiya

nagato > minato
nagato >> jiraiya

obigato >>> >> jinato

not even close


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 19, 2013)

Full knowledge for both, people. If you're going to say CT won't work on Jinato because they know about it, then you're already establishing a hypocritical stance if you're going to go ahead and assert that the Frog Song would work.

"Full knowledge for both" means that if Jinato knows about CT, then Obigato also knows about the Frog Song. So if you're going to say Jinato will warp CT away. Then you'll also have to acknowledge that the Frog Song will be thwarted by Obigato who can just simply warp to Jinato's direction (seeing as he can be sensed as well as heard) and use something like the Demon Path or a well timed Shinra Tensei- in fact a CST would definitely work. 

Also there is a tremendous difference between a perfect Sage Mode and an imperfect one. I say this because ITT Jinato will not have a perfect Sage Mode seeing as: a] Minato has shown, not given us reason to, suggest he's got any SM skill and b] Jiraiya couldn't perfect it. Ergo Jinato will not have a perfect Sage Mode. So simply saying "natural energy will change a lot of things" won't fly.

Yes ITT, Jinato can warp a lot of things. However ITT Obigato can also spam ST seeing as he could simply stay intangible during the cool down period the God Path comes with.

---

IMO, the fight will depend on whose got the better strategy. The abilities each character has makes them more or less decently matched.


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## ImSerious (May 19, 2013)

your kamui + ST combo is useless in front of a SM Minato. both of those techniques are useless when you cant react in time. SM Minato bamflashes them obigato up the ass before their mind can even register what just happened.


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## Trojan (May 19, 2013)

> IMO, the fight will depend on whose got the better strategy. The abilities each character has makes them more or less decently matched.



in term of strategy
Minato >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obito
Minato >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. Nagato
Jman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obito
jman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nagato. 

simple as that, lol


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## Joakim3 (May 19, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> your kamui + ST combo is useless in front of a SM Minato. both of those techniques are useless when you cant react in time.



SM will only increase his _Shunshin_ speed, physical strength & reactions..... he can't wrap any faster than normal so it's not helping your argument. And he's *never* blitzing someone who visually analyzed BM Naruto's _Shunshin_ (Obito) on top of buffing it with the 3rd best sensor in the manga (Nagato's) 

Secondly.... with full knowlege _Hirashin_ is fodder to a Rin'negan user. Obigato is going to simply phase/levitate out of range, and causally nuke Jinato off the planet with ST with 100% impunity. 

_Shinra Tensei_ like _Hirashin_ is *impossible* to react to even with Jinato's boosted SM pre-cog. You simply can't react to something invisible, that needs no hand signs and travels at BM/V2 level _Shunshin_ speeds to boot. (and please don't bring up KN6 incident because it didn't react to ST, but rather Tendo's hand movement)



ImSerious said:


> SM Minato bamflashes them obigato up the ass before their mind can even register what just happened.



Last time I checked Minato still has to *throw a kunai* in your area to bamflash you 

When you can explain to me how he gets a kunai within 2-3 feet of a character who can use all of Obito & Nagato's abilities... and KNOWS whats going to be attempted


.... then we shall debate


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## Trojan (May 19, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> SM will only increase his _Shunshin_ speed & physical strength..... he can't wrap any faster than normal so no... he's not bamflashing anyone this match. Second SM Minato will *never* be faster in raw _Shunshin_ the BM Naruto or V2 Ei, something Obito visually analyzed
> 
> Secondly.... with full knowlege _Hirashin_ is fodder to a rin'negan user. Obito[S/] Obigato is going to fly in the air out of range, and causally nuke Jinato off the planet with ST with 100% impunity. Something no character to date has ever reacted, anticipated or sensed, essentially making S/T useless if he can't use it in time
> 
> (and please don't bring up KN6 incident because it didn't react to ST, but rather Tendo's hand)




SM Increase the Nin, Tai, Gen and speed 
so yes his jutsus will be stronger including  the FTG. and he doesn't have to be faster then
Naruto and A by his Shunshin he's already a lot faster than them with FTG. 

- Because Obito did not have full knowledge before? 


> Something no character to date has ever reacted, anticipated or sensed, essentially making S/T useless if he can't use it in time



It's only used against Naruto, Kakashi and B. That does not mean all others won't be able
to do that!!


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## Kai (May 19, 2013)

Jiraiya hasn't shown any strategy plays that put him above Tobi's level, that's ridiculous.


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## Joakim3 (May 19, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> SM Increase the Nin, Tai, Gen and speed
> so yes his jutsus will be stronger including  the FTG. and he doesn't have to be faster then
> Naruto and A by his Shunshin he's already a lot faster than them with FTG.
> 
> - Because Obito did not have full knowledge before?



Yeah thats great, but _Hirashin_ mechanics mean _Hirashin_ it'self can't get faster (you can't get faster than instant... unless we assume Minato starts turning back time). The only thing that will change is Minato will be able to use _Hirashin_ much later than normal

And again if Minato still can't get a kunai near Obito whether it be throwing a kunai or _Shunshin_ what difference does it make?

Obito didn't have a full Rin'negan arsenal to boot, and he canonically forgot that Minato could teleport to moving Kunai i.e V2. FASTLY different circumstances



TorJaN said:


> It's only used against Naruto, Kakashi and B. That does not mean all others won't be able
> to do that!!



It's been used again Tsunade, ANBU, RM Naruto, Killer B, Kakashi, Chozu, Choji, Itachi, Hinata, Kurama (via KN6) Hanzo, Fodder etc.... non of them have reacted

It's simply jutsu mechanics, if you can explain to me how Minato reacts to something invisible, and has no warning signs of it's usage then I'll gladly concede


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 19, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> your kamui + ST combo is useless in front of a SM Minato. both of those techniques are useless when you cant react in time. SM Minato bamflashes them obigato up the ass before their mind can even register what just happened.



Obito managed to react to someone significantly faster than Minato is at all capable of. That's KCM Naruto and even a shrouded Ay. On top of that there's Shinra Tensei. 

Kamui+ST is a perfect counter to Jinato seeing as he'd go through and be hit with a jutsu that can be activated by Obigato simply willing it.



TorJaN said:


> in term of strategy
> Minato >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obito
> Minato >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. Nagato
> Jman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obito
> ...



Simple, yes. Accurate, no. You only gave a bunch of names with a lot of ">" with no explanations whatsoever.


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## Joakim3 (May 19, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> in term of strategy
> Minato >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obito
> Minato >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. Nagato
> Jman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obito
> ...



Lmao in terms of strategy... Obito is trashes both Minato & Jiraiya, the man has orchestrated virtually every single significant event in the manga.... includuing Minato's death

Hell even Nagato has shown better in-battle strategy than Minato & Jiraiya. Seeing he single handedly invaded the village and required people like Kakashi & Shikamaru to understand his tactics, and this is discounting him trolling Jiraiya' tactics in their fight for obvious reason


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 19, 2013)

Controlling a Mizukage, manipulating the events behind the Uchiha massacre, making people think you're Madara Uchiha, and planning a war tactic (only Naruto could counter) seem to make for a good strategy making record for Obito.

As for Nagato, forming an unbeatable jutsu (which was beaten due to special circumstances, both of which required the jutsu to not be used at full capacity) with a near unbeatable strategy and invading and destroying two villages... That's an impressive strategy making record too.

Put them together and you've got the capability of Obitgato. So I wouldn't say the Minato part of Jinato completely overwhelms his foe.


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## Kai (May 19, 2013)

Jiraiya seems a little out of place in this fight. SM/KCM Naruto's abilities would have been a more reasonable blend.


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## Rocky (May 19, 2013)

Was Frog Song restricted? Obito can't pass through sound waves, and Sage Minato isn't ever getting caught if he focuses only on stalling until the Frogs prep it.


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## Trojan (May 19, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Yeah thats great, but _Hirashin_ mechanics mean _Hirashin_ it'self can't get faster (you can't get faster than instant... unless we assume Minato starts turning back time). The only thing that will change is Minato will be able to use _Hirashin_ much later than normal
> 
> And again if Minato still can't get a kunai near Obito whether it be throwing a kunai or _Shunshin_ what difference does it make?
> 
> ...



- Yeah I know that's great and all, but did you mention his reflex will be much greater? 
- and what will stop him from that? Not as if Obito can use ST all the time nonstop!
- Madara said he taught him all of that If I remember. @@
- Oh, and Tsunade put some chakra in her feat to make it useless, so I don't see why you
put her there.   

- As I said above some chakra in the feats and that's it, also Jman has the barrier that help
him to sense anything. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Simple, yes. Accurate, no. You only gave a bunch of names with a lot of ">" with no explanations whatsoever.



Simple, we have already seen Minato out smart Obito. and it said several time that he's a rare
genius. Also it said by jman and Tsunade that he doesn't do anything without a reason, so he
wont waist his moves for nothing. Moreover, it's also stated that he doesn't make any mistake.
Thus, making it it's out of the character!

for Jman we already saw his plan against the paths when he figure its secrets out
and Nagato stated that with knowledge he would have won. 

on the other hands, it's never said Obito or Nagato are geniuses if I remember correctly
actually obito is one of the most stupid character with 1 for intelligent. 



Joakim3 said:


> Lmao in terms of strategy... Obito is trashes both Minato & Jiraiya, the man has orchestrated virtually every single significant event in the manga.... includuing Minato's death
> 
> Hell even Nagato has shown better in-battle strategy than Minato & Jiraiya. Seeing he single handedly invaded the village and required people like Kakashi & Shikamaru to understand his tactics, and this is discounting him trolling Jiraiya' tactics in their fight for obvious reason



- In which universe. lol 
Obito even with strategy and attacking Minato from his back did not do anything
Actually Minato wiped the floor with him in less than 1m. lol 

-
You mean he was there and told Minato to give his life for Naruto? LOLOL 
nice joke. Obito went there to take Kurama he got his ass kicked instead. lol 

Minato gave his life by his own choice Obito did not plan shit. and if you want to bring the Uchiha its also not
because of him he did not plan that Its Itachi's father (don't know how to write his name lol) Obito only helped Itachi
to kill them. Even the event with Nagato, it's happened because of Hanzo and Danzo's act. Obito did not plan anything again
I don't know what are you talking about!

Obito, with full knowledge, better S/T jutsu, attacking from behind and he still lost. 

Obito & Nagato knew about their teachers ability, yet Obito lost, and Nagato lost his 3 paths at firest
while Minato and Jman knew nothing at that time. So I don't see how is that make their students smarter than them. LOOOOOL 
- Oh really? Such as? 


> Seeing he single handedly invaded the village


Say that to the armies in the 3rd war. lol


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## ImSerious (May 19, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> SM will only increase his _Shunshin_ speed, physical strength & reactions..... he can't wrap any faster than normal so it's not helping your argument. And he's *never* blitzing someone who visually analyzed BM Naruto's _Shunshin_ (Obito) on top of buffing it with the 3rd best sensor in the manga (Nagato's)



SM is something that turns slow characters into speedsters. how bout you stop and think for a sec what it would do to the yellow flash. 

hes gonna blitz the fuck out of them with his sunshin alone, hiraishin isnt even necessary.



> _Shinra Tensei_ like _Hirashin_ is *impossible* to react to even with Jinato's boosted SM pre-cog. You simply can't react to something invisible, that needs no hand signs and travels at BM/V2 level _Shunshin_ speeds to boot. (and please don't bring up KN6 incident because it didn't react to ST, but rather Tendo's hand movement)



V1 Juubi scale to 50% Kyuubi and Hachibi.

Panel 2: ST is used
Panel 3: KN6 physically reacts
Panel 4: ST connects

Deal with it.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Obito managed to react to someone significantly faster than Minato is at all capable of. That's KCM Naruto and even a shrouded Ay. On top of that there's Shinra Tensei.
> 
> Kamui+ST is a perfect counter to Jinato seeing as he'd go through and be hit with a jutsu that can be activated by Obigato simply willing it.



Obito hasnt reacted to anything on the level of SM Minato.


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## Thunder (May 19, 2013)

Obito and Nagato should be individually stronger than Jiraiya and Minato. Merging their powers doesn't really change anything. I agree with Kai: perhaps replace Jiraiya with Naruto to make this more debatable.


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## Trojan (May 19, 2013)

Joakim3

I'll try to make it even easier for you, I hope it can help. 

Look.
1- Obito and Nagato know about Minato and Jman's abilities. 
2- Minato and Jman don't know about theirs. 

I hope that's clear so far. 

3- Minato and Jman had to figure their abilities out during the battle. Which they did. 
4- Obito and Nagato already knew, so they don't have to do so. 

Good so far? 

5- Minato and Jman succeeded by doing that and they turn the table WITHOUT knowledge. 
6- When Obito and Nagato faced something they did not know about they FAILED.

Why they weren't able to deal with that and to figure it out if they were even close as smart? 

**************
Obito's plans. 

I'm sorry, but you failed in that as well horribly.   

1- You can't say Minato's death is Obito's plan because he DID NOT plan to do that.
as if you're saying Rin death was also Obito's plan because he want a reason to be evil? 
and Yahiko's death is his plan because he want Nagato to be with him? 

But guess what? They did that by their own will. 

2- Even Nagato being with the Akatuke is Madara's plan NOT Obito, he just followed it
or are you trying to say those fodders are also geniuses because they followed what Shika said
and thus its their plan? lol 

3- What happened to the Uchiha. 

as I stated before it's not his plan, and he did not make Danzo think that the Uchiha are guilty.

Obito did nothing other than following Madara's order. 

I have nothing to add to this. and honestly it's the first time that I see some one has
a doubt about who are the smarter between those 4. LOL

Edit:- I forget to add what's Obito's fans have great passion to say it. "Experiences" 
So why not Jman is smarter or can win by that? He has a lot more Experiences than obito has. lol


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## BD Itachi (May 19, 2013)

jinato stomps. 

only itachi can defeat him...


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## The Prodigy (May 19, 2013)

Basically Nagato with legs and speed feats of Obito's level, not to mention the damn fast reaction timing of Obito, not to mention allowing him the ability to use Kamui and shinra tensei. Not to mention the ability to see using path summons....

Can you imagine Minato attempting a blitz, going though Kamui to attack from behind just to get shinra tensei'd? Fuckin broken


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## titantron91 (May 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Was Frog Song restricted? Obito can't pass through sound waves, and Sage Minato isn't ever getting caught if he focuses only on stalling until the Frogs prep it.



Panels where Frog Song bypasses intangibility pls.

That or your post is null and void.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2013)

You act like Obito can't hear when he's using the intangibility.

Sound waves don't trigger it, physical contact does. It's how his Jutsu works,


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## Kai (May 20, 2013)

He'll just use one of Nagato's Fuutons to blast away the sound waves, or use Shinra Tensei if he really must.

Frog Song, which was already a prep extensive jutsu, is no longer worthy of concern against Kamui+Rin'negan.


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## ImSerious (May 20, 2013)

how do you push away sound


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## Kai (May 20, 2013)




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## Thunder (May 20, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> how do you push away sound


Temari  Tayuya's genjutsu with a Fūton.

*Edit:* Kai beat me to it.


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## Bonly (May 20, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> how do you push away sound



Why don't you go ask Temari 


Edit: Darn you Kai and Thunder


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## Okodi (May 20, 2013)

Okodi said:


> Frog Song can't absorbed and can't be phased. Phasing it would require five minutes of phasing in order to avoid the sound. If Obigato can do that then or disrupt the sound in some way (other than using ear-plugs) then he will have a fighting chance agains Jinato. Absorbing/STing the jutsu is impossible based on the manga. Though Temari has be able to blow away sound vs Tayuya. Also 5 mins is quite a long time and the Frog song is known to be really consuming.





copydog123 said:


> frog song can be dealt with shinra tensei.
> 
> The song itself is simply vibrations through the air. Shinra tensei can instantly blast that very medium (air) propagating the sound.





Gin Ichimaru said:


> Frog Song? With full knowledge? How will the frogs prep it when everything Jinato can do to Obito gets absorbed, and Obito can simply warp to frogs?
> 
> Also, sound genjutsu can be countered by a fan, so ST blowing everything away will counter it.



Frog song will not be as easy to deal with as it was for Temari with Tayuya. Jinato will be acting as the moving base and evade attacks. Lets say any ST (minor or major) propagates at the speed of sound based on ch 429, p11-13. In that case, with 2 sages on Jinato's shoulders who happens to have the ability to *teleport* _*(and might be clever enough to teleport past the wave front, thus "nullifying" a large ST)*_ then ST is not going to fare well.

Lets make use of some simple math...( oh no ...)
ST's mininum CD: 5 s
Speed of sound: 340 ms-1 at 20 ?C (330 ms-1 at 0 ?C).
If Obigato is 340 m away from Jinato it would take 1 second Frog song to hit him. If Obigato uses ST at the exact time it reaches him it will take 3 s for a wave front to hit him as it travels from Jinato to Obigato (1s), gets repelled by ST back towards Jinato (2s) and then back to Obigato again (3s).

5-3 = 2

This means that ST can't effectively blow away the Frog song. And I don't see a minor ST affecting the the surrounding air as large scale ST does. Both can act spherically but the latter is the one with the huge air pushing quality needed. Frog song, being a continuous, is not going to be stopped ST alone, which has a 5 s required interval. It will have to be a combination of things.

Below you can see an image of how it would look with the radius around Obigato and Jinato respectively. Done to scale 

​
*EDIT:* This is applies that the Jutsu has already been preped of course. And remember that *a major ST may cause strain to Obigato* (remember, Obito didn't use full SoSP powers to retain chakra) and is easily negated by teleportations. Though it is unknown how it would affect Obigato since he wields all powers at the same time. As for blowing it away. That would have to be done *continuously* in order to negate a teleporting Jinato as long as the Frog song Jutsu is active.


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## ImSerious (May 20, 2013)

oh


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2013)

The bad effect from CST was there due to the fact Nagato used it through a conduit (Tendo). Though with Obigato (having an abnormal body and all) that shouldn't be an issue and given that it would be coming from the original user, CST would be even more powerful. Let us not forget that in all the panels it has been shown in, mid-battle it has never been detected till it hit. Look how much prep Naruto had to do to catch a weaker ST, something he couldn't replicate when it was used as a surprise attack via Edo Nagato.

In short: Shinra Tensei is still a viable option to use against Jinato.

As for the Toad Song, remember Jinato does have sensory abilities and can teleport. 



Rocky said:


> Was Frog Song restricted? Obito can't pass through sound waves, and Sage Minato isn't ever getting caught if he focuses only on stalling until the Frogs prep it.



As Kai said, he could use Nagato's Fuutons or a massive omnidirectional ST which would deal with the Genjutsu and Jintao's stalling tactic.



Kai said:


> He'll just use one of Nagato's Fuutons to blast away the sound waves, or use Shinra Tensei if he really must.
> 
> Frog Song, which was already a prep extensive jutsu, is no longer worthy of concern against Kamui+Rin'negan.



It is also worth noting Kamui can generate some wind.


----------



## Rocky (May 20, 2013)

There are quite a bit of large assumptions being made.


What are the level and strength of Nagato's Fuuton Ninjutsu?
How profficient is he with them? Are we sure they're of any value in actual combat?
Would Shinra Tensei suffice to counter sound waves like a gust of wind? They are different Jutsu with diffferent mechanics. Sure Shinra Tensei pushes out like a Fuuton, but it isn't wind.
What if Jintao comes up with a plan to ensure it lands? He has access to two ancient Sages, and he himself is Top-Tier in inteeligence and creative genius.

Along with all of that, there's the question of whether or not Obigato can hit Jinato. A Sage Mode Yellow Flash is going to compete on a level off speed far beyond anything we've been exposed to. Minato alone was already too fast for the Raikage, who is much faster than either Obito or Nagato. Considering Jinato can clone feint, the chance of them landing a Kamui on someone so evasive is zero, and Shinra Tensei is debatable.  Speaking of clones, Kage Bunshin and Hiraishin make for a combo nearly as deadly as Kamui & Shinra Tensei.


_____________


Worst comes to worst, Jinato wins the battle of attrition. With The Sage Toads constantly gathering Natural Energy, Jintao's stamina becomes effectively limitless. I'm aware of how large Obigato's Chakra pool would be, but it isn't limitless. 

Chibaku Tensei can be warped. If the Juubi's Buddha sized Bijuudama can be warped without the Barrier, then he doesn't need to use the Barrier. With his nigh-indefinite stamina & full knowledge, he can take advantage of the CT's gravitational pull and get a Kunai close. From there he sends it away before it grows too large (for those that think Stamina is a problem). A sensor could most likely predict the usage of CST. An attack of that scale _must_ require a large build-up. From there he either uses his tags in Konoha, or avoids the Aoe some other way (using his Sage strength to launch a Kunai very very very far). Hell, Minato alone is capable of jumping villages and porting to mountains seemingly without the use of tags. That's yet another option. 

The underestimation of Sage Mode is evident here. It took an average physical character in Naruto and turned him into a _stud_. The reflex boost is flat out broken. Giving something like that to a character who bears the moniker "The Yellow-Flash" is just unfair.  It's going to take more than what is basically current Obito will the full use of his Rinnegan to stop a Sage Mode S/T wielder.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> There are quite a bit of large assumptions being made.
> 
> 
> What are the level and strength of Nagato's Fuuton Ninjutsu?
> ...




*Spoiler*: _The Fuuton_ 



Wind Release: Gale Palm (風遁・烈風掌, Fuuton: Reppuushou)
Ninjutsu, C-rank, Offensive, Supplementary, Short to mid-range (0-10m)
User: Nagato

When he presses his hands together, a violent wind sets out faster then the speed of sound!!

This technique transforms chakra and creates wind. When one's hands are clapped together, this wind is compressed and evolved into a fierce gale. The "Gale Palm" as just a isolated attack has the power to easily knock over a human.
However, it's true value comes from using it in an attack together with projectile weapons like shuriken or kunai. The speed with which they fly through the air, the power with which they hit, and their ability to wound or even kill are all increased several times!!

[picture of Konan's Paper Shuriken being accelerated]
↑The sudden acceleration of the Paper Shuriken gives them the power to go straight through the enemy with one hit!!​


 Obviously we know a jutsu can be bigger if you apply more chakra. Which Obigato will have no problems doing.

Also I'm pretty sure there's generally no question over how proficient someone who mastered Ninjutsu to the extent Jiraiya wanted to go into SM from the start, is with a Fuuton. A trait automatically generalisable to Obigato.

We know Shinra Tensei pushes, whether or not it would disrupt the sound waves isn't as important as the chances of it hitting the trio performing the illusion. This is a challenging jutsu to say 'no' too considering no form of sensing in the manga has been able to anticipate it coming. Certainly Jinato won't if he will fixate on trying to stall for the Genjutsu. In fact CT could be a decoy to get Jinato to try and warp, giving Obigato enough time to warp to him. 

You can say "what if he comes up with a plan it lands", but then you must accept the "what if Obigato comes up with a plan that it won't land" argument. Both have full knowledge of the other, so obviously Obigato will know Jinato will rely on the illusion if that's Jintao's only real option.


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## Kai (May 20, 2013)

Rocky, the combination of Minato and Jiraiya must rely on Jiraiya's imperfect entry into Sage Mode - that is, Minato will be forced to buy time with Hiraishin as he is not confirmed to have anything to do with the Sage Arts.

There is literally nothing Jinato can do if Obigato casts Chibaku Tensei while he prepares to fuse with the Ni Dai Sennin.

Minato shares _all_ of Jiraiya's imperfections for Sage Mode. Clones aren't going to make a difference unless Naruto is an ingredient of the fusion.


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## ImSerious (May 20, 2013)

CT gets warped.


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## Bonly (May 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> There are quite a bit of large assumptions being made.
> 
> 
> What are the level and strength of Nagato's Fuuton Ninjutsu?
> ...



You keep bringing up Sage mode but how would he get into it? Since Jinato has all of the feats of Jiraiya and Minato that means he would have to buy some time and as we had saw Jiraiya kept his hands together the whole which means he couldn't do any jutsu. The only thing Jinato could do would be Hiraishin but Obigato has jutsu and speed to take them down while they prep for it. Do you really think Jinato could get into Sage Mode?


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## Kai (May 20, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> CT gets warped.


Jinato can't really do anything offensively while prepping for Sage Mode.


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## ImSerious (May 20, 2013)

Bonly said:


> You keep bringing up Sage mode but how would he get into it? Since Jinato has all of the feats of Jiraiya and Minato that means he would have to buy some time and as we had saw Jiraiya kept his hands together the whole which means he couldn't do any jutsu. The only thing Jinato could do would be Hiraishin but Obigato has jutsu and speed to take them down while they prep for it. Do you really think Jinato could get into Sage Mode?



They will never catch the yellow flash. The only way you can hope to land a hit on Minato is when he is on the offensive, if hes avoiding you its pretty much hopeless.



Kai said:


> Jinato can't really do anything offensively while prepping for Sage Mode.



He warps CT and goes back to prepping it.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2013)

Kai said:


> Rocky, the combination of Minato and Jiraiya must rely on Jiraiya's imperfect entry into Sage Mode - that is, Minato will be forced to buy time with Hiraishin as he is not confirmed to have anything to do with the Sage Arts.




So he..buys time. He's faster than Obito and _alot _faster than Nagato. He's supposed to be faster than the Raikage, who can avoid instantaneous Jutsu like Amaterasu.



> There is literally nothing Jinato can do if Obigato casts Chibaku Tensei while he prepares to fuse with the Ni Dai Sennin.




Except warp it then start prepping again.



> Minato shares _all_ of Jiraiya's imperfections for Sage Mode. Clones aren't going to make a difference unless Naruto is an ingredient of the fusion.




Why would Kage Bunshin no Jutsu make no difference?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 20, 2013)

Kai said:


> Minato shares _all_ of Jiraiya's imperfections for Sage Mode. Clones aren't going to make a difference unless Naruto is an ingredient of the fusion.



Important to note this. He won't spam clones readily, unless one of his components (Jiraiya/Minato) do that naturally.

Though if he were to spam clones then Obigato whose components have mastered the mainstream Ninjutsu (Nagato) and seen a lot of clones (Obito via Sharingan) will simply counter with his own clones. 

Also keep in mind both sides have full knowledge: why would they take needless risks they know would likely trigger the other side to use threatening guns? Esp Jinato who would face the wrath of ST or Kamui if he tried to jump into the Toad Song asap?


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## Kai (May 20, 2013)

ImSerious said:
			
		

> He warps CT and goes back to prepping it.





			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Except warp it then start prepping again.


Either Kamui or Shinra Tensei >> speed of kunai to protect the orb.

If the orb was already tagged you both would be right, but both of your neglect to detail fails to see the difference in that matter. 

Minato doesn't benefit from any of Jiraiya's abilities while he is prepping for Sage Mode. It'll cost Jinato the match.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Why would Kage Bunshin no Jutsu make no difference?


One or two clones get casually dispersed by the force of Shinra Tensei. Jiraiya brings out like one clone at any given time and Minato doesn't even use clones.

Let's not pretend like Naruto is here.


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## ImSerious (May 20, 2013)

Kai said:


> Either Kamui or Shinra Tensei >> speed of kunai.
> 
> If the orb was already tagged you both would be right.
> 
> Minato doesn't benefit from any of Jiraiya's abilities while he is prepping for Sage Mode. It'll decisively cost Jinato the match.



The orb doesnt need to be tagged. He warped Kyuubi while standing on top of gama, meaning his range is atleast as big as gama. Also im pretty sure he wasnt point blank next to the Juubidama, so it could be even bigger.

Minato has speed. He can run away while prepping it and they will never catch him.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2013)

Kai said:


> Either Kamui or Shinra Tensei >> speed of kunai to protect the orb.




CT overrides earth's gravitational pull. Even if Shinra Tensei is used to deflect a Kunai....it's going to fall towards the core. 

Oh, and it's never been shown that Nagato can use Shinra Tensei while casting Chibaku Tensei. Just as he can't use ST & BT at the same time to rip someone in half.

Not sure why Kamui is being mentioned, it requires touch. Obigato isn't going to locate a small Kunai amongst the construction of a mini-planetoid. Even if he saw it somehow, it's not like he's going to go grab it while he's concentrating on building Chibaku Tenseu.




> One or two clones get casually dispersed by the force of Shinra Tensei. Jiraiya brings out like one clone at any given time and Minato doesn't even use clones.




Notice I said clone feint, which only really requires one clone at any given time.

Edit: If he wanted to clone spam though, he certainly has the reserves. It doesn't matter if neither Jiraiya nor Minato spam Bunshins IC....Nagato doesn't use Fuuton IC, which you admitted was a possible counter to Genjutsu.


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## Kai (May 20, 2013)

ImSerious said:
			
		

> The orb doesnt need to be tagged. He warped Kyuubi while standing on top of gama, meaning his range is atleast as big as gama.


Minato told Bunta to hold Kurama down for a moment to expand to such ranges. 



			
				ImSerious said:
			
		

> Also im pretty sure he wasnt point blank next to the Juubidama, so it could be even bigger.


Every time Minato has set up a S/T barrier, it's been within vicinity to himself. There is no merit to the idea that Minato just sets a S/T barrier high up in the sky wherever he wants.



			
				ImSerious said:
			
		

> Minato has speed. He can run away while prepping it and they will never catch him.


Minato's forced to play defensively because of Jiraiya's imperfect Sage Mode. "Jinato" is not surviving the full power of the Rin'negan (CST/CT) before an incomplete SM finishes, and most importantly as fast as Minato is his speed doesn't actually speed up the process of entry into Sage Mode whatsoever.


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## Kai (May 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> CT overrides earth's gravitational pull. Even if Shinra Tensei is used to deflect a Kunai....it's going to fall towards the core.
> 
> Oh, and it's never been shown that Nagato can use Shinra Tensei while casting Chibaku Tensei. Just as he can't use ST & BT at the same time to rip someone in half.
> 
> Not sure why Kamui is being mentioned, it requires touch. Obigato isn't going to locate a small Kunai amongst the construction of a mini-planetoid. Even if he saw it somehow, it's not like he's going to go grab it while he's concentrating on building Chibaku Tenseu.


Obigato can just Kamui to the orb itself and protect it- with full knowledge of S/T techs you don't think he won't know what's going on when a kunai is thrown at his jutsu?

You make a legitimate point on Shinra Tensei/Chibaku Tensei. But seriously Rocky, are you being purposely ignorant on the full power of Kamui+Rin'negan against an approaching kunai? You don't think the combined power of Tobi and Nagato can do anything against the speed of a thrown kunai, _seriously_?



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Notice I said clone feint, which only really requires one clone at any given time.


Clone feints are there to exploit possible openings.

There are no such openings to be made with 'instantly' executable attacks like Shinra Tensei and Kamui when active, especially in combination.


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## ImSerious (May 20, 2013)

Kai said:


> Minato told Bunta to hold Kurama down for a moment to expand to such ranges.



And it took forever for Itachi and co. to get pulled up. I'd say he has plenty of time.

And in the recent chapter he warped the juubidama instantly so its safe to say the charge time has been retconned.



> Every time Minato has set up a S/T barrier, it's been within vicinity to himself. There is no merit to the idea that Minato just sets a S/T barrier high up in the sky wherever he wants.



Not necessarily high in the sky, im just saying his range is huge.



> Minato's forced to play defensively because of Jiraiya's imperfect Sage Mode. "Jinato" is not surviving the full power of the Rin'negan (CST/CT) before an incomplete SM finishes, and most importantly as fast as Minato is his speed doesn't actually speed up the process of entry into Sage Mode whatsoever.



CST is dodged with Hiraishin/blocked by S/T barrier and i like i said, CT gets warped.

His speed i what allows him to buy enough time to prep SM, as they will never catch him if hes playing defensive.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2013)

Kai said:


> Obigato can just Kamui to the orb itself and protect it- with full knowledge of S/T techs you don't think he won't know what's going on when a kunai is thrown at his jutsu?




I don't understand. In order for Obito to "Kamui" something, he must touch it. How is he supposed to touch the core in the sky and turn it intangible when he'll be on the ground casting Chibaku Tensei?



> are you being purposely ignorant on the full power of Kamui+Rin'negan against an approaching kunai? You don't think the combined power of Tobi and Nagato can do anything against the speed of a thrown kunai, _seriously_?




Again, we must not be on the same page. If Obigato throws the orb up in the sky, how is he supposed to counter Minato letting go of/throwing a Kunai and having it fall towards the core? No CT user has ever even attempted to stop someone from throwing something at CT.

Obigato will have all of his focus dedicated towards the construction of Planetary Devastation, so he probably won't even see something as small as a Kunai. Once it's close to CT, Minato warps it, just as he did the Juubidama.



> Clone feints are there to exploit possible openings.
> 
> There are no such openings to be made with 'instantly' executable attacks like Shinra Tensei and Kamui when active, especially in combination.




Against someone like Minato, the focus dedicated towards destroying a clone could mean the game. If Obigato hits a clone with ST (the only attack fast enough to maybe hit Minato), then it's possible Jinato could take advantage of the surprise and strike before Obigato reactivates Kamui. Minato already proved faster than Kamui without clones.


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## Bonly (May 20, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> They will never catch the yellow flash. The only way you can hope to land a hit on Minato is when he is on the offensive, if hes avoiding you its pretty much hopeless.



I respectfully disagree.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2013)

Bonly said:


> I respectfully disagree.




No they really don't have any hope.

They have no attacks faster than a Ration no Yori Body Flicker from a few meters out...and that was without knowledge.


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## Bonly (May 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> No they really don't have any hope.
> 
> They have no attacks faster than a Ration no Yori Body Flicker from a few meters out...and that was without knowledge.



Do they that not have CT to start sending any Kunai flying up? Do not not have Kamui that was able to quickly get close to Minato wherever he Hiraishin'd to? Is Obigato not allowed to use Kamui and and the Rinnegan at the same time? Can Obigato not use Kamui followed by BT to catch Jinato while kunai are flying up? It seems like they have a method they can use which can catch Jinato in a short amount of time, likely before Jinato can send CT somewhere else if he did.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Do they that not have CT to start sending any Kunai flying up?




Which is a good thing. Once they get close, he can warp it.



> Do not not have Kamui that was able to quickly get close to Minato wherever he Hiraishin'd to?




Which accomplishes what?



> Is Obigato not allowed to use Kamui and and the Rinnegan at the same time?




Since when could Obito use intangibility and _anything _at the same time.



> Can Obigato not use Kamui followed by BT to catch Jinato while kunai are flying up?




Jinato then proceeds to warp out of BT.



> it seems like they have a method they can use which can catch Jinato in a short amount of time, likely before Jinato can send CT somewhere else if he did.




CT users don't do anything else when casting CT. They sit there and focus on it's construction, unless you would like to provide evidence to the contrary.


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## Bonly (May 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Which is a good thing. Once they get close, he can warp it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Was going to answer the others until I saw the bold. Is that what you're going with? In that case Jinato is easily caught since we have only seen people with Jiraiya's skill set barely move after he starts going into SM, no Hiraishin use here.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2013)

Bonly said:


> we have only seen people with Jiraiya's skill set barely move after he starts going into SM, no Hiraishin use here.




Nah Jiraiya activated that barrier Ninjutsu with his feet. Hiraishin doesn't require any limbs at all to utilize.


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## Bonly (May 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Nah Jiraiya activated that barrier Ninjutsu with his feet. Hiraishin doesn't require any limbs at all to utilize.



Nah doesn't change the fact that he barely moved from his spot thus he gets easily caught.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2013)

Hiraishin isn't physical movement, it's a Ninjutsu just like the barrier.


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## Bonly (May 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Hiraishin isn't physical movement, it's a Ninjutsu just like the barrier.



Nah he still wouldn't do it and gets caught as he wouldn't be in the same spot due to kunai flying up. Per your logic that is.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2013)

What Kunai are you talking about? Minato can dodge all of Obigato's attacks by warping to spread tags on the ground.


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## Bonly (May 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> What Kunai are you talking about? Minato can dodge all of Obigato's attacks by warping to spread tags on the ground.



That would be good but can you show me when Minato ever warped to a tag that wasn't on a kunai or a person during a battle? If not then he won't, per your logic that is.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2013)

He would warp to spread Kuani.

If Obigato's game-ender is used, he would obviously stop preparation for SM and deal with it.


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## Okodi (May 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Since when could Obito use intangibility and _anything _at the same time.


In chapter 567, page 7


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## Rocky (May 20, 2013)

Great catch. I concede that point.


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## Okodi (May 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Great catch. I concede that point.


Thanks  This can also be seen as the reason why light effects and sound still affect him when intangible.


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## Bonly (May 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He would warp to spread Kuani.
> 
> If Obigato's game-ender is used, he would obviously stop preparation for SM and deal with it.



Said kunai would be flying towards the core of CT.

Can you show me when Jiraiya was trying to get into SM, he just stop to do something else? If not then he won't per your logic.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Said kunai would be flying towards the core of CT.




So then Jinato would stop prep and deal with CT. Or just wait until a Kunai's close and warp the shit away, like I've been saying for a while now.



> Can you show me when Jiraiya was trying to get into SM, he just stop to do something else? If not then he won't per your logic.




Jiraiya had no reason to stop preparation.


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## Bonly (May 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> So then Jinato would stop prep and deal with CT. Or just wait until a Kunai's close and warp the shit away, like I've been saying for a while now.



Can you show me where Jiraiya ever stopped prepping to go into SM? If not then he won't, per your logic that is.




> Jiraiya had no reason to stop preparation.



Oh you mean like how there was no reason why a CT user needed to move around and attack his opponent after he used CT?


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## Rocky (May 20, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Can you show me where Jiraiya ever stopped prepping to go into SM? If not then he won't, per your logic that is.




You failed to understand my logic hard. It's not a matter of tendency, it's a mater of ability.





> Oh you mean like how there was no reason why a CT user needed to move around and attack his opponent after he used CT?




I'd say when a Rasenshuriken, Magatama, and Bijuu Bomb were being charged for launch, some "moving around and attacking" would've been nice.

I'm not sure why you're under the impression that someone can cast CT and use other Ninjutsu at the same exact time. Building the sphere requires concentration and causes ridiculous _strain_.


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## Bonly (May 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You failed to understand my logic hard.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I forgot that Nagato was in control of his body when that happen.

And controlling six Bijuu at once while takes concentration as well and Obito managed to use other ninjutsu. Nowhere was it stated that one can't use ninjutsu after CT has been thrown up unless I missed that part.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2013)

Bonly said:


> I forgot that Nagato was in control of his body when that happen.




So what. I said "CT users", not Nagato. Kabuto is very intelligent, and most likely wouldn't allow nukes to be fired at CT if he could prevent it. It's not even like Nagato himself has shown tendency to attack while forming Chibaku Tensei. He pretty much let KN6 do whatever it wanted.




> And controlling six Bijuu at once while takes concentration as well




Not enough concentration & strain to give Obito an aneurism.


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## Bonly (May 20, 2013)

Rocky said:


> So what. I said "CT users", not Nagato. Kabuto is very intelligent, and most likley wouldn't allow nukes to be fired at CT if he could prevent it. It's not like Nagato himself has shown tendency to attack while forming Chibaku Tensei. He pretty much let KN6 do whatever it wanted.



 Kabuto may be intelligent but that doesn't mean he knows whats best for every situation, for all we know he could thought CT could tank it. Naruto had no way of getting out of CT so no need for Nagato to do anything.




> Not enough concentration & strain to give Obito an aneurism.



Yeah.


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## Joakim3 (May 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> So what. I said "CT users", not Nagato. Kabuto is very intelligent, and most likely wouldn't allow nukes to be fired at CT if he could prevent it. *It's not even like Nagato himself has shown tendency to attack while forming Chibaku Tensei. He pretty much let KN6 do whatever it wanted.*



Kabuto is canonically prone to making HUGE mistakes (despite his intelligence)... we are talking about a man who was so intinced by catching Jins he _forgot_ Itachi was on the field...... *Itachi, the king of oneshot for god sakes * 

Nagato (while Edo) had _Shurado_ active while forming and launching CT against Naruto & company so yes canonically he can use multiple path powers even when forming CT (how efficient he can use them is up to debate though)

Against KN6 Tendo could quite literally do nothing when forming CT save run, as it using _Shinra Tensei_ & _Bansho Tenin_ would directly interfere with the formers core form



Rocky said:


> Not enough concentration & strain to give Obito an aneurism.



Concentration wasn't the issue, Nagato was so strained due to the fact he was quite _literally_ in the worst physical condidtion of any named non-dead character in the manga...  

.....we saw just how casual a rejuvenated Nagato threw up CT


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## copydog123 (May 21, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> how do you push away sound



push away the medium propagating sound. 

physics 101.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 21, 2013)

For all those harping on "he'll warp CT"... Where exactly is he going to warp it? To another part of the battlefield? Bearing in mind Jinato would just extend the range of the jutsu, or just bring out another one. 



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Nagato doesn't use Fuuton IC, which you admitted was a possible counter to Genjutsu.



IC is an okay argument. But when it is used like this it fails hard. I mean "IC" doesn't work on characters who barely have a showing. Nagato hasn't been able to showcase his non-Rinnegan Ninjutsu feats in battle. He's always been converted or controlled to prevent that from happening.

Generally a rule of thumb is that characters use jutsu depending on whether or not they need them. If Obigato believes he needs a Fuuton, then he'll use it. If Obigato believes he needs a Katon, he'll certainly use it. 

IC would be perfect for you to use if we had Nagato actually fight a battle where he didn't need to rely purely on the Rinnegan; if Nagato was controlled by a foe who knew about his abilities other than the Rinnegan.

That isn't the case, however. Therefore you _could_ make a "IC" point here, but you wouldn't have a solid point given the lack of IC Nagato battles. Keep in mind I differentiated between Nagato, Pain and a controlled Nagato's fighting styles for very obvious reasons. 

Though this is interesting you could pull a random "it isn't IC for him" but someone else could also pull a random "it is IC for him" given that a] Nagato did use a Fuuton in his youth and b] Jiraiya seemed to think he'd be competent enough with Fuuton (among other things) to warrant his (Jiraiya's) SM use. 

Why use things like Fuuton with Rinnegan and Kamui? Well Obigato has full knowledge, and if Obigato concludes, like others, that the Fuuton would work effectively against the Genjutsu. Then he'll deduce just that. 


----

Clones feints would fail against a sensor given they'd sense both chakra signatures. Thus it would be obvious to Obigato that Jinato is obviously trying to use a clone feint for some reason. The best guess would be for the toad song given that's the only stall worthy jutsu Jinato has. Especially since the Jiraiya component of Jinato has tried that against the Nagato component of Obigato. 

The Minato component would acknowledge that and realise that trying to do things Obigato has already seen is generally a bad idea given that it will give away the plan, if the preparation for the Genjutsu doesn't.


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## ImSerious (May 21, 2013)

copydog123 said:


> push away the medium propagating sound.
> 
> physics 101.



that doesnt answer my question


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## Joakim3 (May 21, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> that doesnt answer my question



Sound requires a medium to pass through to work (air for example)

If Shinra Tensei is dispersing the air around the user then by default the sound waves traveling through said medium (air)  are going to be HIGHLY distorted/disrupted, thus said genjutsu will not work as intended

He answered the question completey fine


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## Rocky (May 21, 2013)

ITT: Nagato uses ST on the surrounding air 



			
				Munboy said:
			
		

> For all those harping on "he'll warp CT"... Where exactly is he going to warp it? To another part of the battlefield? Bearing in mind Jinato would just extend the range of the jutsu, or just bring out another one




Wherever he sent that Juubi Bomb.




> Clones feints would fail against a sensor given they'd sense both chakra signatures. Thus it would be obvious to Obigato that Jinato is obviously trying to use a clone feint for some reason




One of the in battle best sensors to date got clone feinted twice and lost because of it.



> Nagato hasn't been able to showcase his non-Rinnegan Ninjutsu feats in battle. He's always been converted or controlled to prevent that from happening.




Good points. Still, Nagato hasn't exactly done anything with the elements...so we don't know what he would do. We don't know his proficiency, or even what is attacks are. What if Nagato's Fuuton was like FRS? He wouldn't be capable of blowing sound waves away with something like that.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Wherever he sent that Juubi Bomb.



Unless you can prove he sent it somewhere where it won't be a threat, I wouldn't harp on that. Though patience, for about a day, will probably help you out.



> One of the in battle best sensors to date got clone feinted twice and lost because of it.



However Obigato has access to compliments to his sensory ability. I'm talking about the rain jutsu and shared vision. All of which could help suss out if a clone is in the area. To add perspective, Minato using a overall sensing method akin to the rain was able to detect and distinguish between normal shinobi and clones.




> Good points. Still, Nagato hasn't exactly done anything with the elements...so we don't know what he would do. We don't know his proficiency, or even what is attacks are. What if Nagato's Fuuton was like FRS? He wouldn't be capable of blowing sound waves away with something like that.



That's why we can't really say "IC" with cases like Nagato. Though, personally I find it more logical to go by a "need it" basis i.e. Obigato won't use the Fuuton, or elements unless its needed. Given Nagato's preference to use the Rinnegan more, it seems Ninjutsu is more of a secondary fighting style. By Jiraiya's word, Nagato has access to mainstream Ninjutsu regardless of element: what counts as "mainstream Ninjutsu" will vary between posters. IMO it tends to be generic jutsu, which would probably be used to supplement the Rinnegan- but yet be something that's force base Jiraiya into SM. So not something generic yet fodder.

FRS-type jutsu are definitely not average/mainstream Ninjutsu. The Fuuton's capabilities, that it is a wind that becomes a "fierce gale", as per se the .
You could argue that whilst using this Obigato can further add to the wind whilst making use of its "true value" by using it with projectiles like kunai, by merely using an application of Kamui.

Or as per se Jiraiya on Nagato's mastery over all forms of chakra, you could make an argument that this Fuuton could be altered to generate a lot of wind by Obigato choosing not to compress the wind into a "fierce gale". 

But to answer your question, we know that Fuuton: Reppuushou goes generate winds more in a similar way to Temari's Fuuton. Yet it doesn't compress and isolate the chakra to the extend FRS is compressed. It is also worth noting that Reppuushou is a Fuuton jutsu itself whilst FRS is a jutsu which has a "wind flavour" so to speak.

As for proficiency, we only have Jiraiya's word: at the age of 10 Nagato could proficiently use all the essential/mainstream Ninjutsu. Whether or not you think he got better as he aged is entirely up to individual posters. 

As for how far he can manipulate the chakra - implying how effective Obigato's Fuuton would be - we have this. We can see to some extent Nagato had enough control to have the shuriken float around him. Arguably you can link that to how much Fuuton chakra Nagato chose to utilise. If that's the case you can say it'll be very effective by asserting Obigato will be able to use as much chakra as is needed, given that his components (Obito and Nagato) have no chakra issues in battle.


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## Kai (May 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I don't understand. In order for Obito to "Kamui" something, he must touch it. How is he supposed to touch the core in the sky and turn it intangible when he'll be on the ground casting Chibaku Tensei?


He can just protect it with Kamui like he protected Sasuke from Onoki/A and Gedo Mazo from Kakashi, and then resume with assembling the jutsu.

We also know that after Pain's Chibaku Tensei was destroyed, Nagato stated he would have to make a bigger one after.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Again, we must not be on the same page. If Obigato throws the orb up in the sky, how is he supposed to counter Minato letting go of/throwing a Kunai and having it fall towards the core? No CT user has ever even attempted to stop someone from throwing something at CT.


We have witnessed Nagato as the _only_ CT user on panel, so it's nowhere near as universal as you try to make it appear with your claim. There is a lack of concrete evidence on Nagato's ability to multitask, but it's less likely that someone who casts CT is completely helpless in other actions— especially when considering a fusion in abilities of this level.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Obigato will have all of his focus dedicated towards the construction of Planetary Devastation, so he probably won't even see something as small as a Kunai. Once it's close to CT, Minato warps it, just as he did the Juubidama.


Even if we go by your stance that a CT user is completely immobile when performing CT, Tobi has an immeasurable storage space of weapons in his eyes, including an arsenal of stakes and giant shurikens. 

Minato's kunai isn't getting near the black sphere with full knowledge and Kamui in play.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Against someone like Minato, the focus dedicated towards destroying a clone could mean the game. If Obigato hits a clone with ST (the only attack fast enough to maybe hit Minato), then it's possible Jinato could take advantage of the surprise and strike before Obigato reactivates Kamui. Minato already proved faster than Kamui without clones.


No, Hiraishin supplemented by a clone coming out on top of the combined flexibility of Kamui, Shinra Tensei, and Izanagi is severely unlikely.

It's rather boggling how your arguments seem to award Minato the benefit of more or less soloing this fight, despite inherting Jiraiya's weaknesses at the same time.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 21, 2013)

It it means anything, Kabuto damned mobility for Nagato's loss. Meaning if Nagato was mobile, he could've simply moved. Though it is unknown why Kabuto didn't have a summon move him out of the way.

On top of that, we got similar arguments in the past saying Nagato couldn't use multiple paths at the same time. Look how that turned out. Nagato using multiple paths in the first place suggests that using CT (a God Path jutsu) won't render Nagato immobile. Esp as Kabuto certainly didn't curse Nagato's CT. 

Moreover if CT really immobilised its users, then *God Realm* Pain wouldn't have been able to casually move whilst CT did its thing.


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## Kai (May 21, 2013)

Right, even if we follow the idea that CT immobilizes the user, Kabuto damned Nagato's _own_ lack of mobility and not CT which would have put a stop to his mobility anyways.


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## Rocky (May 21, 2013)

Kai said:


> He can just protect it with Kamui like he protected Sasuke from Onoki/A and Gedo Mazo from Kakashi, and then resume with assembling the jutsu.
> 
> We also know that after Pain's Chibaku Tensei was destroyed, Nagato stated he would have to make a bigger one after.




You're not making this point very clear. Obito must touch something to protect it with Kamu (make it intangible)i. That's the whole point to his Kamui, he isn't Kakashi. With orb in the sky and Obigato on the ground, how is that going to happen?

When Tendo made his comment, he said he's make it bigger. Not make a new one.



> We have witnessed Nagato as the _only_ CT user on panel, so it's nowhere near as universal as you try to make it appear with your claim. There is a lack of concrete evidence on Nagato's ability to multitask, but it's less likely that someone who casts CT is completely helpless in other actions— especially when considering a fusion in abilities of this level.




Building a mini-moon most likely requires full concentration..wouldn't you agree?  I find the notion of any Shinobi continuing to fight effectively while they're using such a strenuous technique ridiculous. It's not that they can't move, i never said that. My argument was always that they couldn't use other Ninjutsu. Even if they can, I highly doubt it would be anything effective.

If Jinato really feels helpless against it, worst comes to worst he can double K.O. with the Reaper Death Seal.



> Even if we go by your stance that a CT user is completely immobile when performing CT, Tobi has an immeasurable storage space of weapons in his eyes, including an arsenal of stakes and giant shurikens.
> 
> Minato's kunai isn't getting near the black sphere with full knowledge and Kamui in play.




Any weapon fired out of Obito's eye during CT wouldn't fly towards Minato's Kunai. It would fly..at CT. Remember Itachi's plan? Your attack will travel towards the core, regardless of where you aim?



> No, Hiraishin supplemented by a clone coming out on top of the combined flexibility of Kamui, Shinra Tensei, and Izanagi is severely unlikely.
> 
> It's rather boggling how your arguments seem to award Minato the benefit of more or less soloing this fight, despite inherting Jiraiya's weaknesses at the same time.




Clone..._feint_. It only adds to his elusiveness.

Jiraiya's weaknesses? Like what? Jiraiya doesn't really have much he can do against CT, which is why I don't include his abilities in my argument against CT. Does that not make sense, Kai? I've included Jiraiya in other areas of my argument, like Sage Mode, obviously.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 21, 2013)

Rocky said:
			
		

> Building a mini-moon most likely requires full concentration..wouldn't you agree?



You're talking about a combined form of two Rinnegan users that were able to make six different bodies do six very different/powerful things. Concentration isn't necessarily going to be a problem, something I didn't necessarily know till you pointed out Obito being able to just use Kamui whilst suppressing a Bijuu- while keeping five others under control. 

In fact, whilst concentrating hard on CT, Nagato was still able to get God Realm out of the danger-zone. 

In short: concentration will not be a massive problem for Obigato. I can see him investing complete concentration though if he believes he can win with it. However full knowledge: if you think Jinato has a way past it, chances are so would Obigato. As Okodi pointed out, if he truly feels threatened, Obigato can just have Kamui up, whilst investing time into CT.



Kai said:


> Right, even if we follow the idea that CT immobilizes the user, Kabuto damned Nagato's _own_ lack of mobility and not CT which would have put a stop to his mobility anyways.



Personally I don't fathom how the CT-immobilisation-effect even became an argument when the first time we saw CT... the user (Nagato-Pain) actually moved whilst it did its thing.

Tendo when he threw CT -> compare that to where Tendo was after CT -> bearing in mind that Tendo obviously had to move from point A to B before CT did this.


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## Rocky (May 21, 2013)

So when CT is in the sky gathering debris, and Jinato throws a Kunai at it, what will happen?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> So when CT is in the sky gathering debris, and Jinato throws a Kunai at it, what will happen?



The kunai will stick. But I know you're arguing that Jinato will warp it, which is fine- but you've yet to state _where_ it'll warp. At the moment the only warp jutsu we know fully about (the same warping jutsu people speculate was used on the Juubi-dama) required Minato to transfer the jutsu elsewhere.

So if we're arguing under the notion that its the same jutsu: where do you think Jinato's going to warp the CT orb? Another part of the battlefield?


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## Kai (May 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You're not making this point very clear. Obito must touch something to protect it with Kamu (make it intangible)i. That's the whole point to his Kamui, he isn't Kakashi. With orb in the sky and Obigato on the ground, how is that going to happen?


I don't see a problem with interrupting Minato's kunai velocity and resuming Chibaku Tensei, even assuming he has to put the process on hold.

Again, this kind of issue can't be proven concretely either way so we'll just have to disagree in each other's interpretation.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Building a mini-moon most likely requires full concentration..wouldn't you agree?  I find the notion of any Shinobi continuing to fight effectively while they're using such a strenuous technique ridiculous. It's not that they can't move, i never said that. My argument was always that they couldn't use other Ninjutsu. Even if they can, I highly doubt it would be anything effective.


Controlling six bijuus requires full concentration and we not only witnessed Tobi use Kamui during his reign of control, but also witnessed Tobi use Kamui _simultaneously_ with the Outer Path.

Personally I believe "Obigato", who would essentially be Tobi using the Rin'negan to its full efficacy, would be able to freely exercise each eye without isolating one another's powers, such as _Chibaku Tensei_ and _Kamui_ that are being discussed.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> If Jinato really feels helpless against it, worst comes to worst he can double K.O. with the Reaper Death Seal.


Izanagi can cheat that fate if it happens.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Any weapon fired out of Obito's eye during CT wouldn't fly towards Minato's Kunai. It would fly..at CT. Remember Itachi's plan? Your attack will travel towards the core, regardless of where you aim?


If that were the case he would be waiting until the black orb was already high in the sky to start its gravitational attraction. Even if we assume Minato can warp the actual earth formation, he still has to get up there first- Obigato will know exactly where he's going and possibly lay a trap; As we're fully aware, "CT users" aren't affected by their own Chibaku Tensei.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Clone..._feint_. It only adds to his elusiveness.


Yet responding to what you stated prior about using clone feints as part of an actual offensive strategy, I fail to see how a clone feint makes progress against the combined benefits of Kamui, Shinra Tensei, and Izanagi ... which can all be used interchangeably with immunity.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Jiraiya's weaknesses? Like what? Jiraiya doesn't really have much he can do against CT, which is why I don't include his abilities in my argument against CT. Does that not make sense, Kai? I've included Jiraiya in other areas of my argument, like Sage Mode, obviously.


Jiraiya's most blatant weakness has always been his entry into Sage Mode — while Minato can run and make this possible, he forfeits entering that state whenever he attacks. With "Obigato's" AOE capabilities, Minato will be forced to use S/T offensively or be constantly disrupted and have gathering of natural energy be foiled.

Minato is the whole crutch supporting this "Jinato" fusion. A much more complementary partner like Naruto with abilities like entering Sage Mode in mere moments and creating mass clones without difficulty is what he needs to fight a mixture of powers at this scale.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 21, 2013)

Izanagi vs Shikifuujin is interesting. Though I reckon Izanagi could win if it was used _before_ the Shinigami touches Obigato.


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## Rocky (May 22, 2013)

*Spoiler*: _631_ 



 So I'm pretty sure the addition of the KCM/BM boost on to Minato's stats has effectively ended this thread as well as all current debate about Minato.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> *Spoiler*: _631_
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm pretty sure the addition of the KCM/BM boost on to Minato's stats has effectively ended this thread as well as all current debate about Minato.




*Spoiler*: _Latest Chapter Spoilers_ 



I thought about that. But I'll see how the next few posts go with the fact that Obito actually managed to fight this form. As cool as the form was, I wouldn't infer it ending all Minato threads. Though that depends on the coming weeks. 

Now it is still debatable, albeit the Jinato/Minato side now has a new tool to use in the debate.


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## Rocky (May 22, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> *Spoiler*: _Latest Chapter Spoilers_
> 
> 
> 
> ...





*Spoiler*: __ 



 Well, this form took the very average Base Naruto and made him the fastest character in the Manga. This is the Yellow-Flash....


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Well, this form took the very average Base Naruto and made him the fastest character in the Manga. This is the Yellow-Flash....




*Spoiler*: _Latest Chapter Spoilers_ 



As you saw yourself, with this speed Naruto himself didn't think blitzing people would be such a good idea. In fact the two times he tried against Obito - once in KCM (what Minato has) and in BM (above Minato's) - failed consistently.

You don't think there's a reason the speedy characters don't choose to flaunt their speed around carelessly as you're implying Jinato should?

Lets assume this happens: Jinato tries to speed blitz. He'll end up going through and probably would be BT'd after he went through and would be lolPreta-supressed then Human Realm'd. 

It gives Jinato more options, no doubt. It also saves him from having to hinge on the Genjutsu praying things like ST/Fuuton don't stop it. However just simply trying speed blitz is just setting him up for failure.

Madara Uchiha shouldn't have stood a chance against BM Naruto (in a form faster than KCM) or Ay by your logic seeing as the latter two could speed blitz.


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## Rocky (May 24, 2013)

The speed gap between Base Minato and Base Naruto is ridiculous. Give them both KCM, and Minato remains ridiculously faster.

There's a very uncertain gap between BM & KCM Naruto, but I highly doubt that it's anywhere near the gap between The Yellow-Flash and Naruto.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The speed gap between Base Minato and Base Naruto is ridiculous. Give them both KCM, and Minato remains ridiculously faster.
> 
> There's a very uncertain gap between BM & KCM Naruto, but I highly doubt that it's anywhere near the gap between The Yellow-Flash and Naruto.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Minato has fast movement true. However his movement - excluding Hiraishin - is still slower than V1 A. Granted this speed a lot faster than base Naruto.

When you bring in KCM, the gap is still there. But you're probably taking a leap of faith by assuming the difference remains ridiculously faster. This notion only makes sense if you include Hiraishin. 

Well the gap between KCM and BM is very large, especially as Kurama himself said he was unable to give Naruto his _full_ power. So basically whatever KCM can do, BM can do a lot better. I wouldn't say gap between KCM Minato and KCM Naruto is that big- after all it is the same mode. 

It also means nothing once you reach a certain tier of opponent. As BM Naruto showed when he tried to speedblitz Madara and Obito. 

Your core point is right, Minato is fast. Possibly faster than Naruto. However it'd be wrong to assume that alone will pull Jinato through the fight.

Jinato may be able to react quickly. But that mode will be meaningless against a composite who was able to see through this mode and an even after mode who can use the Preta Path and the Human Path to nullify any advantages should they get close enough.

---

So really it is a lose-lose if speed is the only saving grace Jinato has.

With SM, if he runs to stall for the Genjutsu then he runs the risk of falling prey to long range attacks like CST and risks just moving an active CT to another part of the battlefield. On top of that there's the whole potential counters for the illusion thing.

With KCM, if he tries to recklessly run into Obigato, then like Naruto he'd fail and probably be in a bind... with no Bee or Itachi there to help.


Granted I think this fight can go either way. However I honestly doubt relying purely on speed (whether to stall or to try and "lolblitz") help Jinato do anything but lose.


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