# Gai vs Ei ( why gai wins please read Op)



## Icegaze (Aug 25, 2013)

Location: Kage summit 
Distance : 25m
Restrictions : none 
Knowledge : reputation 

I understand most believe Ei wins and this has been done several times however let me bring up a few points please indulge me 

We know the first gate makes base guy 5 times stronger . His base strength is already quite impressive being able to break boulders with nunhacku , then it's implied he can break one by just punching it . He elbowed kisame into the wall and broke the wall . Granted kisame was weakened however I can't say Ei elbowed jugo more than 10 times the distance gai elbowed kisame 

We all agree raiga bomb would kill gai , so my question is why won't omote renge kill Ei
It's essentially the same technique just that omote ensures you land on ur neck 

We know jugo can react to Ei when Ei doesn't max out so no reason gai shouldn't 
Gai also has the advantage of nunchaku which means he will always have the better reach 

Yes Ei is faster as stated by kishi however I doubt even when maxed out Ei is so fast gai can't react . 

by the 3rd gate gai is more than 5 times stronger than in base  so I doubt Ei can brush off ura renge . The assumption that he can tank mp because chidori didn't pierce him is silly 
Blunt force and piercing force aren't the same thing 

Ei only advantage is speed gai makes up for that with better reach even in base as well as better CQC skills and best of all long range AoE taijutsu .  One of which can be presumed to have broken level 3 susanoo meanwhile Ei maxed out csnt even crack rib cage susanoo from madara 

gai taijutsu are alot more likely to kill Ei than Ei punch killing gai considering in the first gate alone he is 5 times Stronger and faster than in base . That's a manga fact . By 6th gate a take a 1000 flaming punches over a super speed power punch


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 25, 2013)

I'm calling it: either a major shitstorm or a dead-end thread.


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## Icegaze (Aug 25, 2013)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> I'm calling it: either a major shitstorm or a dead-end thread.



I think the latter
It's done several times though cuz it's really interesting 
What do you think about the points I made cuz I haven't seen those points bein made before 
Ei can still die from a broken neck which omote renge can make happen 
people always talk about Mp and hirudora


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## Jad (Aug 25, 2013)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> I'm calling it: either a major shitstorm or a dead-end thread.



Isn't it always


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## LostSelf (Aug 25, 2013)

Blunt force and piercing damage aren't the same, yeah. But if his skin was so durable as to take a Chidori Katana to the neck like nothing, then he should take blunt force attacks easier.

He also blocked Susano'o blades with his hands.

But i do believe AT would hurt Ei. Several At would beat him. However, Ei is Gai's bad matchup. He negates his speed advantage, and his durable body negates Gai's attacks coming from all angles (like Shoushuga), since they maybe won't damage him to the point of stopping Ei's attack. But Gai cannot take Ei's. Especially since the Raikage's hits are strong enough as to cut his own arm (And we know how durable the guy is). Gai is likely hit by Ei, and it won't be good.

Fighting in taijutsu would be bad for him for this. His best bet is not engage him like that, but try to kill him with AT.

INB4 theories deeper than the meaning of life of how Gai cannot be Kage level, cannot harm Ei and is blitzed and one shotted?


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## Icegaze (Aug 25, 2013)

Jad said:


> Isn't it always



Jad am sure u agree with my points Ei can't survive a broken neck nor should he be able to survive 
Flaming punches that evaporated an entire lake . like while gai gates is limited , gates gives gai much better taijutsu than Ei

I don't think Ei without maxing out can blitz gai in base . Then by 1st gate gai already gets 5 times faster and stronger am surprised more people don't think gai wins 

Ei best move is a punch which is <<<<<hirudora 

Granted Ei could slice gai in half as well but truth is it's 1 of the toughest BD match ups ever

@lostself Ei tanked the chidori sword because of the shroud and yes he is durable however that shouldn't stop gai from breaking his neck with omote renge 
And while Ei is faster gai is alot better in CQC


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 25, 2013)

*Goes to get popcorn* This'll be fun.  But you bring up some good points. Gai is not the idiot some make him out to be, and Ei's style is very linear.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 25, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> What do you think about the points I made cuz I haven't seen those points bein made before



Nothing Jad or I haven't already said months ago.



LostSelf said:


> *Several AT*



... Wait.



			
				Search Engine said:
			
		

> *sev•er•al*          (sĕvˈər-əl, sĕvˈrəl)
> _adj._
> Being of a number more than two or three but not many:  _several miles away. _



When did Gai become capable of _more than two or three_ Hirudora?


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## Ghost (Aug 25, 2013)

Raikage wins.


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## LostSelf (Aug 25, 2013)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Nothing Jad or I haven't already said months ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gai in full power shouldn't go as weak as to not be able to fight anymore (like its mostly implied). He fought for like two days straight using gates on and off, and in the end, almost passing out from injuries and his own gates, he was able to use another Hirudora fast enough to help a helpless Hachibi.

It's up to interpretation if he can use more than three. But i do believe he can use four (And passing out inmediately) if he is in full power. I do not believe Hirudora takes everything of Gai.


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## Icegaze (Aug 25, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Gai in full power shouldn't go as weak as to not be able to fight anymore (like its mostly implied). He fought for like two days straight using gates on and off, and in the end, almost passing out from injuries and his own gates, he was able to use another Hirudora fast enough to help a helpless Hachibi.
> 
> It's up to interpretation if he can use more than three. But i do believe he can use four (And passing out inmediately) if he is in full power. I do not believe Hirudora takes everything of Gai.



He only needs 1 to kill Ei or incapacitate him. It's not like Ei durability can be even compared to level 3 susanoo. not definite proof hirudora destroyed it but it can be implied .

Also I still think such may not even be needed ura or omote renge would be tough to tank as well
Ei can't tank a broken neck


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## LostSelf (Aug 25, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> He only needs 1 to kill Ei or incapacitate him. It's not like Ei durability can be even compared to level 3 susanoo. not definite proof hirudora destroyed it but it can be implied .
> 
> Also I still think such may not even be needed ura or omote renge would be tough to tank as well
> Ei can't tank a broken neck



No, Ei can't. But Kishi is not very logically sometimes. For example, Gai's MP should deal a force much more lethal than Tsunade's (I don't know how she has super strenght when her striking speed is not that fast. But to avoid debate, is horribly slower than MP). With the speed behind it, Gai should leave holes in his opponent's body. Yet, a slow punch breaks Madara's torso.

Hirudora, being that strong, wouldn't break Ei's neck (It didn't break Kisame, despite Gai not wantig to kill him to get information). And yeah, i do believe it's veyr possible that AT destroyed Susano'o, because the Mokuton restraining them lost it's power when Hirudora exploded.

But well, outside the BD, it's possible. But Ei's shroud shield is too tough as to be destroyed and harm Ei to the point of killing him at the same time. In base he's hard as well. 

Either way, it has been shown that a hit in the right place can kill you (Haku, for example), now Gai knowing those pressure points (Since they are taught in martial arts is plausible. Buth im not showing them...


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## Icegaze (Aug 25, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> No, Ei can't. But Kishi is not very logically sometimes. For example, Gai's MP should deal a force much more lethal than Tsunade's (I don't know how she has super strenght when her striking speed is not that fast. But to avoid debate, is horribly slower than MP). With the speed behind it, Gai should leave holes in his opponent's body. Yet, a slow punch breaks Madara's torso.
> 
> Hirudora, being that strong, wouldn't break Ei's neck (It didn't break Kisame, despite Gai not wantig to kill him to get information). And yeah, i do believe it's veyr possible that AT destroyed Susano'o, because the Mokuton restraining them lost it's power when Hirudora exploded.
> 
> ...



Gai punches being weaker than tsunade actually makes sense cuz tsunade punjea are ninjutsu based . She is releasing chakra into your body she isn't just punching you 
her punches are ninjutsu that's why she can leave holes in people's bodies


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## RBL (Aug 25, 2013)

that fictional wrestler wannabe, doesn't have anything against the kung-fu master.


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## Icegaze (Aug 25, 2013)

I agree Brandon . gai stands a better chance of winning this


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## ueharakk (Aug 25, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> *Ei only advantage is speed* gai makes up for that with better reach even in base as well as better CQC skills and best of all long range AoE taijutsu .  One of which can be presumed to have broken level 3 susanoo meanwhile Ei maxed out csnt even crack rib cage susanoo from madara



Ei's doesn't only hold the speed advantage over gai, but he's much more durable, has way more stamina, is physically stronger, and has better reactions.

On the flipside, Gai needs to use a powerup that destroys his body in order to fight on the same physical level as RnY Ei while Ei can hold the cloak for battles without tiring thanks to his bijuu level chakra.

Gai only has 2 advantages over Ei: weapons skill and more powerful one-hit kills (MP and AT).


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## Icegaze (Aug 25, 2013)

​


ueharakk said:


> Ei's doesn't only hold the speed advantage over gai, but he's much more durable, has way more stamina, is physically stronger, and has better reactions.
> 
> On the flipside, Gai needs to use a powerup that destroys his body in order to fight on the same physical level as RnY Ei while Ei can hold the cloak for battles without tiring thanks to his bijuu level chakra.
> 
> Gai only has 2 advantages over Ei: weapons skill and more powerful one-hit kills (MP and AT).



Don't forget omote renge which could result in Ei landing on his neck or urs renge which could harm Ei. 
Ei is physically stronger and gai is less durable than Ei. However gai jutsu are alot stronger than Ei's

Hirudora breaks level 3 susanoo Ei attack doesn't even crack rib cage version of madara's. 

also note lariat from bee knocked Ei back and Ei lost his shroud . Call it plot all u want but everything is plot so that's a weak excuse . 

I mean u believe raiga bomb can kill gai right. Well let me tell u omote renge is essentially the same thing but it's a pile drive starting from higher up . Ei can't just tank that 

Remember 1st gate makes gai 5 times stronger than in base . That's a manga fact. 

Let me ask do you believe gai can tank a punch from Ei? I think he can 

I actually think Ei would have a hard time landing a clean hit , gai is so much better at CQC.


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## narut0ninjafan (Aug 25, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> No, Ei can't. But Kishi is not very logically sometimes. *For example, Gai's MP should deal a force much more lethal than Tsunade's (I don't know how she has super strenght when her striking speed is not that fast. But to avoid debate, is horribly slower than MP). With the speed behind it, Gai should leave holes in his opponent's body. Yet, a slow punch breaks Madara's torso.*
> 
> Hirudora, being that strong, wouldn't break Ei's neck (It didn't break Kisame, despite Gai not wantig to kill him to get information). And yeah, i do believe it's veyr possible that AT destroyed Susano'o, because the Mokuton restraining them lost it's power when Hirudora exploded.
> 
> ...



Dude, what the fuck? Tsunade's super strength comes from super strength. Just because Gai has better striking speed it doesn't mean his hits should cause more damage than Tsunade's. You're trying to make it sound as if Tsunade hits in slow motion. I hope you realize how desperate and stupid that point sounds.


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## SSMG (Aug 25, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Ei's doesn't only hold the speed advantage over gai, but he's much more durable, has way more stamina, is physically stronger, and has better reactions.
> 
> On the flipside, Gai needs to use a powerup that destroys his body in order to fight on the same physical level as RnY Ei while Ei can hold the cloak for battles without tiring thanks to his bijuu level chakra.
> 
> Gai only has 2 advantages over Ei: weapons skill and more powerful one-hit kills (MP and AT).



Guy is better in everything you listed.

Durability- guy took his AT expolison that put down kisame without a stratch.

Stamina-guy fought against the seven swordsmen of the mist for an entire day. faced off against obito with kakashi and naruto. faced off against madara with bee and then used an AT in base. ..raikage fought for like twenty chapters before he was kod by madara.

strength-guy is the pyhsically strongest character.in the manga. he punches the air and it creates small nuke sized expolsions he also pushed back the pcean by just being in it.... raikage can't even destroy verison 1 susanno... guy destroyed a much better verison.

Reaction- guy has reacted to two teleprters haku and obito.... with obito he didn't let him get a chance to materialize... no one else in the manga has done this..


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## ueharakk (Aug 25, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> ​
> Don't forget omote renge which could result in Ei landing on his neck or urs renge which could harm Ei.


neither of those are more powerful than what Ei can dish out.  Ei doesn't have to hit his opponent high into the air, constrict them and then slam them into the ground, he does all that in V1 it's called liger bomb.



Icegaze said:


> Ei is physically stronger and gai is less durable than Ei. However gai jutsu are alot stronger than Ei's
> 
> Hirudora breaks level 3 susanoo Ei attack doesn't even crack rib cage version of madara's.


which is why I said AT and MP are advantages Gai has over Ei as far as offensive power.



Icegaze said:


> also note lariat from bee knocked Ei back and Ei lost his shroud . Call it plot all u want but everything is plot so that's a weak excuse .
> 
> I mean u believe raiga bomb can kill gai right. Well let me tell u omote renge is essentially the same thing but it's a pile drive starting from higher up . Ei can't just tank that


sure Ei can tank that.  Ei wasn't damaged by Bee's lariat and Bee overpowering Ei isn't a downplay of Ei's strength, but a plus for Bee.  



Icegaze said:


> Remember 1st gate makes gai 5 times stronger than in base . That's a manga fact.


manga fact or databook fact?  Either way, doesn't really matter as we know what Gai can do in the 6th and 7th gates, and none of his strength, speed, reaction feats are above Ei's.



Icegaze said:


> Let me ask do you believe gai can tank a punch from Ei? I think he can


A direct hit?  No way, gai coughs up blood from getting punched by shouten kisame and he gets hurt by V2 paths slapping him back with their tails.  Gates doesn't increase his durability, if anything it makes him less durable as it's constantly damaging his body while he's in that mode.



Icegaze said:


> I actually think Ei would have a hard time landing a clean hit , gai is so much better at CQC.


What in the world is this based off of?



SSMG said:


> Guy is better in everything you listed.
> 
> Durability- guy took his AT expolison that put down kisame without a stratch.


show me him taking his own AT explosion?  Cuz i can sure show you Gai getting slapped by V2 jinks just as easily as kakashi and coughing up blood by getting punched in the gut.



SSMG said:


> Stamina-guy fought against the seven swordsmen of the mist for an entire day. faced off against obito with kakashi and naruto. faced off against madara with bee and then used an AT in base. ..raikage fought for like twenty chapters before he was kod by madara.


And throughout the entire duration of that, how long was Gai in gates? Hardly any time, and during the times he uses the upper gates, he instantly shuts them off as soon as they are not needed.  
Ei on the otherhand holds the RnY while conversing and had to personally go up against 5 V3 susanoos for hours which means he had to have held his cloak during that time, and throughout the whole madara fight, ei never once showed any physical exhaustion.  There's no way that Gai would last even an hour against 5 V3 susanoos considering he'd have to spam his 6-7th gate in order to hope to get Ei level physical attributes.



SSMG said:


> strength-guy is the pyhsically strongest character.in the manga. he punches the air and it creates small nuke sized expolsions he also pushed back the pcean by just being in it.... raikage can't even destroy verison 1 susanno... guy destroyed a much better verison.


That's not raw strength, that's an actual technique created by the air pressure of an extremely fast punch, 7th gated Gai does not casually throw out punches that are equivalent of that.



SSMG said:


> Reaction- guy has reacted to two teleprters haku and obito.... with obito he didn't let him get a chance to materialize... no one else in the manga has done this..


wave arc sasuke and naruto reacted to haku as well, it's not impressive in the least.  When did Gai not allow obito a chance to materialize?  You mean when obito caught his nunchuck?


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## LostSelf (Aug 25, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Dude, what the fuck? Tsunade's super strength comes from super strength. Just because Gai has better striking speed it doesn't mean his hits should cause more damage than Tsunade's. You're trying to make it sound as if Tsunade hits in slow motion. I hope you realize how desperate and stupid that point sounds.



I should be careful when i talk about Tsunade. I am being watched.

What would be more devastating? A truck hitting you at 20 mph, or a formula 1 car going at 120 mph?

I'm pretty sure that if we use physics (Someone correct me if i'm wrong, not my strong signature), Gai's striking speed would allow his punches to connect harder than Tsunade's punches because of the sheer speed and force behind (not counting the chakra he uses to punch way harder).

And of course, Tsunade doesn't hit in slow motion normally. But if you compare her striking speed with Gated Gai's striking speed....

And hell, i said "To avoid debate" and compared her punches with MP, believing that there's nothing to debate about the huge diference in speed between both. But no, i get quoted even for this. Oh well .

But putting it more simple. Force = mass x velocity (My english).

I suppose mass is Gai's weight. Wich is 76 kg while Tsunade's is 48.9 kg.

I don't think i have to give an example about the huge ass diference between Gai's striking speed (in gates) with Tsunade's. Gai holds a freaking huge advantage here.

So if Gai holds both advantage in mass AND velocity. If we apply physics, who would punch harder? Not harder, who would punch horribly harder?


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 26, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> What would be more devastating? A truck hitting you at 20 mph, or a formula 1 car going at 120 mph?



In Naruto? Usually the vehicle with the better chakra control.


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## raizen28 (Aug 26, 2013)

Hirudora cant disperse Ei's Raiton Cloak. Its not Fuuton. Its Impossible.
I heard it at a uh uh bar.


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## Chad (Aug 26, 2013)

Gai wins high difficulty.


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## Icegaze (Aug 26, 2013)

raizen28 said:


> Hirudora cant disperse Ei's Raiton Cloak. Its not Fuuton. Its Impossible.
> I heard it at a uh uh bar.



Bee lariat isn't futon either. rny got dispersed  casually . Hirudora is sure to disperse Ei shroud and kill him

@urk gai being better in CQC is obvious he is far less predictable and has the longer reach thanks to nunchaku 

I think it's off for you to think Ei can survive a broken neck . Gai strength being boosted 5 times by the first gate was stated in the manga . 
I agree we have seen what he can do in 6 and 7 gate so that point wasn't relevant .  However gai can punch Ei from 25m while Ei has to move those 25m to get to gai . I doubt Ei is so much faster that he can travel 25m before gai throws 1 punch . 

Also kisame punched him and he coughed out blood however he seemed just fine and kept on fighting . Ei being stronger than gai is a given but I don't think he can kill gai with a punch. Both madara and KCM naruto blocked Ei punch without loosing their hands I see no reason why gai can't do that 

1 thing is sure though Ei durability is well inferior to level 3 susanoo so hirudora ends him


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## narut0ninjafan (Aug 26, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> I should be careful when i talk about Tsunade. I am being watched.
> 
> What would be more devastating? A truck hitting you at 20 mph, or a formula 1 car going at 120 mph?
> 
> ...



So in a manga where ninjas can walk on water, draw lightning, summon huge animals and all sorts of other stuff, you have a problem with someone who has SUPER STRENGTH being stronger than someone else? Whatever floats your boat.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 26, 2013)

> But putting it more simple. Force = mass x velocity (My english).
> 
> I suppose mass is Gai's weight. Wich is 76 kg while Tsunade's is 48.9 kg.
> 
> ...



F=ma is what they would teach you in school today 

It amazes me how some people can't wrap their head around the fact that strength is far from being the only factor in striking strength. I know as I'm a physics fan (no expert at all just what I've self taught myself) and I actually am in a Karate class. It's a pretty simple concept, the motion you already have that harder the strike is. That's why roundhouses and spinning kicks will have a lot more force than a regular front kick. 

  Unfortunately many seem convinced that Tsunade has class 100 strength and can't be outdone in anything physical 

  I'm not going  to calculate the forces though, unless somebody also has some calcs made on how many meters per second they can go as well.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 26, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> So in a manga where ninjas can walk on water, draw lightning, summon huge animals and all sorts of other stuff, you have a problem with someone who has SUPER STRENGTH being stronger than someone else? Whatever floats your boat.



The point is  you assume real world logic when otherwise hasn't been specified. It's especially important when you compare characters that aren't from the same series, i.e if I wanted to do Hulk vs Tsunade then calcs would be made (not that you should have to as I think the result is obvious).

  Kishi hasn't done anything I can think of that confirms or dismisses this logic. In a filler anime episode I think Ei and Tsunade arm-wrestled and Tsunade was going to win but Ei actually used his speed to win, not canon but if you watch it you'll get what we're trying to say.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 26, 2013)

> We all agree raiga bomb would kill gai , so my question is why won't omote renge kill Ei



It doesn't have enough lightening.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 26, 2013)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> Kishi hasn't done anything I can think of that confirms or dismisses this logic. In a filler anime episode I think Ei and Tsunade arm-wrestled and Tsunade was going to win but Ei actually used his speed to win, not canon but if you watch it you'll get what we're trying to say.



Ay didn't actually overpower her, though. He let go and grabbed her when her hand slipped. His speed never afforded him superior strength.

This was rusty Tsunade, too.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 26, 2013)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> I'm not going  to calculate the forces though, unless somebody also has some calcs made on how many meters per second they can go as well.



Would this be of any use?



			
				Very Old Post from Myself said:
			
		

> Average human reach is 86cm. Assuming each punch involves him cocking  his arm back to his shoulder and extending full reach, that gives us  1.72m.
> 
> 340m/s / 1.72m = 197 punches per second per arm.
> 
> ...


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## LostSelf (Aug 26, 2013)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> The point is  you assume real world logic when otherwise hasn't been specified. It's especially important when you compare characters that aren't from the same series, i.e if I wanted to do Hulk vs Tsunade then calcs would be made (not that you should have to as I think the result is obvious).
> 
> Kishi hasn't done anything I can think of that confirms or dismisses this logic. In a filler anime episode I think Ei and Tsunade arm-wrestled and Tsunade was going to win but Ei actually used his speed to win, not canon but if you watch it you'll get what we're trying to say.



Don't bother. I clearly said "IF WE APPLY PHYSICS TO THE MANGA".But, i hate her sooo much that she should be protected. I have an Anti Tsunade group made in Facebook, and i use a picture of her in my room to practice my shooting skills. That's why i use her in an example and something like "If we apply physics, Tsunade's strikes, that are slower than Gai and with less mass should be weaker" is seen like "Tsunade is slower than Gai and weaker." in his eyes. Sadly. . 

@Kenpachi: So you are saying that gated Gai punches harder than Tsunade without using her chakra to enhance her punches? .


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## FlamingRain (Aug 26, 2013)

You are being watched, LostSelf.


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## LostSelf (Aug 26, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> You are being watched, LostSelf.



But.. but... Yesterday i said to a friend that Tsunade is cute and interesting... My streak of not liking Tsunade will go down if the ones watching me heard that .

Nooooooooo" D;.

OT: I still think Ei is too much of a bad matchup for Gai. Worse than what Gai is to Kisame. However, i do not think Ei can shrug off MP (or react to it. After all, it's punches too freaking fast). How much Gai can damage him with that, or AT is up to interpretation. Since thinking that AT destroyed Susano'o because of Mokuton losing it's power when Hirudora exploded should say something.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 26, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Ay didn't actually overpower her, though. He let go and grabbed her when her hand slipped. His speed never afforded him superior strength.
> 
> This was rusty Tsunade, too.



Jesus <censor> <religious censor>

Did I not say he used speed? Did I not already say it was related to F=ma? Honestly how much selective reading can one person pull off?!


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 26, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> @Kenpachi: So you are saying that gated Gai punches harder than Tsunade without using her chakra to enhance her punches? .



Has Tsunade given us any reason to believe her _*non*_-chakra enhanced strength is above *any* of the more physical characters?


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## FlamingRain (Aug 26, 2013)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> Jesus <censor> <religious censor>
> 
> Did I not say he used speed? Did I not already say it was related to F=ma? Honestly how much selective reading can one person pull off?!



I'm saying that isn't what he used his speed for. He let go, grabbed her and flipped her. That doesn't mean full speed Ay can hit harder than Tsunade. And LostSelf's entire point was that Gai should hit harder because he strikes faster. So what you're getting at isn't related at all.



Kenpachi TZ said:


> Has Tsunade given us any reason to believe her _*non*_-chakra enhanced strength is above *any* of the more physical characters?



Who are these "more physical" characters?


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## SSMG (Aug 26, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> show me him taking his own AT explosion?  Cuz i can sure show you Gai getting slapped by V2 jinks just as easily as kakashi and coughing up blood by getting punched in the gut.
> 
> And throughout the entire duration of that, how long was Gai in gates? Hardly any time, and during the times he uses the upper gates, he instantly shuts them off as soon as they are not needed.
> Ei on the otherhand holds the RnY while conversing and had to personally go up against 5 V3 susanoos for hours which means he had to have held his cloak during that time, and throughout the whole madara fight, ei never once showed any physical exhaustion.  There's no way that Gai would last even an hour against 5 V3 susanoos considering he'd have to spam his 6-7th gate in order to hope to get Ei level physical attributes.
> ...



I can't show you a direct scan but the if someone calcd it guy should be in the explosion. guy and kisame were about 30 meters apart. guys ats whole point is to cause as much area as possible. it expoldes outwards meaning kisame was at the center. and the one side of it reached the clouds. guy had to be in it. also those example you posted do not refute this.

How many times was he in gates? against the swordsmen. when he showed up to save naruto against the jins he had entire off screen battle against madara so we don't know what happened there ...noto to mention guy came into the war right after fighting kisame.... i admit they are both chakra beasts tho hence both their.nicknames titles. this fight isn't going until who tires first though. both these guys are looking to put the other down.but yeah guy would have just taken all the v3 susannos out at once like he did to the real.madaras one.

Actually that is raw strength. he doesn't use anything else but his punch to create that attavk. no molding of chakra into a certian shape or nothing of the sort...he just punches the air and creates destructive force comparable to a small nuke. he also punches fo fast it ripss the air so much it causes it to catch fire. if you wanna do the calcs for thede and find out just how much stronger guy is than anyone else.in this manga be my guest.

also haku was noted to have slowed his speed down for when sasuke.and naruto both reacted to him. also guy wanted obito to catch his.numbchuku at that time...I'm talking about the previous chapter when guy and obito were in CQC and guy didn't need to be saved from anyone else. compare that to when EI tried to take on obito at the summit ajd he didn't know if he hit obito or not untill he was getting out of the wall...there not even close in reactions.


----------



## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 26, 2013)

> Has Tsunade given us any reason to believe her non-chakra enhanced strength is above any of the more physical characters?



She does have a 5 in strength. I do believe without chakra she can be at least close-to-matched though. I.e I don't know about you but Kisame came off as pretty damn strong several times.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 26, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I'm saying that isn't what he used his speed for. He let go, grabbed her and flipped her. That doesn't mean full speed Ay can hit harder than Tsunade. And LostSelf's entire point was that Gai should hit harder because he strikes faster. So what you're getting at isn't related at all.





When did I say even once in that post that Ay can hit harder than Tsunade. I was simply trying to make the point that physique isn't the only factor, and referenced that filler scene to make the point to people who might not get how F=ma works in a situation.

You know, for you people who never cared for math or physics.


----------



## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 26, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Who are these "more physical" characters?



Choji. Jirobo. Kisame. Ei. B. SM Naruto. Gai.

These sort of people.


----------



## SSMG (Aug 26, 2013)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Would this be of any use?



Hmm good stuff. is there any clacs that show the amount of force the human body needs to.produce to cause the air to catch fire? that would pin point those number ranges a bit.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 26, 2013)

@ AH,

You had just commented on the factors of striking force, and afterwards brought that arm-wrestling match up to the person saying that logic would dictate Gai's hits are superior to Tsunade's if this wasn't Kishiland.

So, if that's not what you're getting at, then nevermind but I'm confused as to why it was even brought up. Because flipping somebody has nothing to do with who hits harder.

@ KenpachiTZ,

Chakra-enhanced strength is labeled as an application of Ninjutsu, but Tsunade's opening axe kick against Kabuto and Orochimaru is labeled as Taijutsu. There's also an issue with Kabuto being able to negate that strength by severing her muscles, because she was still able channel chakra with her muscles severed, so had she actually been enhancing her blows with chakra she should have knocked Kabuto's head right off regardless of his scalpels when she punched him.

So, I think Part 1 Tsunade's striking feats were natural ones unassisted by chakra. The methodology of chakra-enhanced strength also can't be applied to lifting, and Tsunade picked up Gamabunta's tanto. And all of this done while twenty years out of shape and coming off of substance abuse.

So I think someone would rather take a punch from Gai (excluding AT), Kisame, base Choji, or Jirobo than Tsunade.

Bee, Ay, maybe not so much.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 26, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> You had just commented on the factors of striking force, and afterwards brought that arm-wrestling match up to the person saying that logic would dictate Gai's hits are superior to Tsunade's if this wasn't Kishiland.
> 
> So, if that's not what you're getting at, then nevermind but I'm confused as to why it was even brought up. Because flipping somebody has nothing to do with who hits harder.



Gaia so help me....

Let me make it as simple as possible for you. 

F=ma
F - force
m - mass
a - acceleration

The more you weigh and the faster you move, the more force. This is why a bullet can go through an Elk. You're shooting it off at incredible speed out of your firearm. Or why a meteor can make an impact much much larger than itself. 

My point is that strength is not the only factor. That arm-wrestle perfectly explains that. Tsunade had more physique, but Ei used his speed to generate enough force to overwhelm her quickly.
I brought it up so people like you could get the idea that speed does effect force, rather than just spitting in LostSelf's face and saying "How does speed effect power?".

I did say people are convinced Tsunade can't be outdone in anything physical. I didn't say that to claim Ei can strike harder, I just meant some people are convinced Tsunade is the most physically strong character in Naruto and can lift anything. (The class 100 thing was an exaggerated joke, I haven't seen anyone say Tsunade can lift 100+ tons)

We all know that Tsunade doesn't have comparable strength to someone like Kurama. (No Tsunade can't level a mountain).


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 26, 2013)

SSMG said:


> Hmm good stuff. is there any clacs that show the amount of force the human body needs to.produce to cause the air to catch fire? that would pin point those number ranges a bit.



You're going to need someone who knows physics a lot more than I do to tell you that.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 26, 2013)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> Gaia so help me....
> 
> Let me make it as simple as possible for you.
> 
> ...



_I_ know all of this already.



> My point is that strength is not the only factor. That arm-wrestle perfectly explains that. Tsunade had more physique, but Ei used his speed to generate enough force to overwhelm her quickly.



He used his speed to _grab and lift her_. I don't think anyone questioned Ay's ability to pick up a woman of normal weight. I mean, that's great, Tsunade picked up a skyscraper sized sword.

LostSelf's point was concerning the force of Gai's _strikes_ in comparison to Tsunade's. Ay managing to _pick Tsunade up faster than the judge would notice_ has nothing to do with his speed affording him the ability to _strike with more force_ than her.



> I didn't say that to claim Ei can strike harder



But this is what LostSelf is saying _should_ be the case if not in Kishiland, that's why I was wondering why you brought it up. I think I just misunderstood you.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 26, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> _I_ know all of this already.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When are you going to get that I wasn't saying Ei can strike harder than Tsunade? What I'm trying to get through your thick head is that speed can increase striking power. All you keep harping on about is that speed won't change anything. I'm not using the filler-scene to say Ei or Gai has better striking power, get that through your head. I was using that merely as an example of how speed can effect the amount of kinetic energy, since it's Naruto related and more fun to watch than some clip from a show on Sci Channel. If that video doesn't clear it up for you then google it or get a elementary level physics book.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 26, 2013)

@FlamingRain

Ok there was some latency issues with our edits being made.

Misunderstanding between us, apologies for any angry remarks.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 26, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> But.. but... Yesterday i said to a friend that Tsunade is cute and interesting... My streak of not liking Tsunade will go down if the ones watching me heard that .
> 
> Nooooooooo" D;.
> 
> OT: I still think Ei is too much of a bad matchup for Gai. Worse than what Gai is to Kisame. However, i do not think Ei can shrug off MP (or react to it. After all, it's punches too freaking fast). How much Gai can damage him with that, or AT is up to interpretation. Since thinking that AT destroyed Susano'o because of Mokuton losing it's power when Hirudora exploded should say something.



Tsunade is neither cute nor interesting.

You're on thin ice, and it's cracking.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 26, 2013)

Just something I want to get out there, I personally think to apply speed to striking force speed isn't the only necessary factor. It is a matter of having some of your own physique/durability. Otherwise Minato would have the most striking force in the Manga.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 26, 2013)

Outside of _Hiraishin no Jutsu_, Minato's speed is comparable to base Ay. _Hiraishin_ is teleportation so i don't think it affects the acceleration of his actual attacks.

I kind of doubt it.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 26, 2013)

Oh, I'll be on topic.

So, you can say that Guy can hit super hard, because he's striking super fast, and speed=power because real world physics.

But in the real world, strength also equals speed, since the harder you push off the ground, the faster you go.  That's why sprinters have muscle and leg strength.  Power makes you move faster.  

That doesn't hold true in fiction, or else Tsunade would be a top tier speedster, and she's not.  By the same token, Guy's speed doesn't give him more power, because it's fiction.  Hence why Lee could zoom around Gaara in hyper gates, but didn't have the strength to slam through his hits.  Fast but weak, slow and powerful; those are tropes in fiction.  Raikage is fast and powerful, and is also explicitly said to up his speed to up his power, so he's exempted in a way the other characters are not.  Which means his case isn't the rule, but the exception.  Oh, and even chidori needs to you stick all piercing lightening on your hand.  Just stabbing with a kunai or fist at hyper speeds does jack all.  

*Insert picture of Sakura shunshin punching Ino in the face and Ino being okay here*


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## LostSelf (Aug 26, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Tsunade is neither cute nor interesting.
> 
> You're on thin ice, and it's cracking.



She was called the most beautiful Kunoichi around the world . (I swear i saw this somewhere).

And her character development is interesting for me. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



I better say it before the ones watching me says it first.


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## SSMG (Aug 26, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Oh, I'll be on topic.
> 
> So, you can say that Guy can hit super hard, because he's striking super fast, and speed=power because real world physics.
> 
> ...



but guy and lee have super strength. Lee pulled a tree out of the ground from its rooy. that's impressive. lee also had weighted leg bracers so he has the power leg muscles...because they were atleast a thousand pounds if not.more to do that kind of.damage to.concrete. 

guy is also strong. he would have busted that rock in early part two if it wasn't for the.seal. he he did break a boulder in the war with his.numvhuku he creates nuclear sized attacks by a throw of a.punch(this is the greatest strength feat in the manga btw.) and he killed a fodder with a punch in part one. 


actually now that i think about it.guy os the only person to kill someone with pure pyhsical.attavks isn't he?


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## J★J♥ (Aug 26, 2013)

As i see it Guy is faster and Stronger even without gates.
But A is more Chakra and Durability.
I'll give guy 6/10 if he can't use Gates. He stomps with gates thought.


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## Icegaze (Aug 26, 2013)

Don't like how physics got brought into this . I would like to know why do people think Ei can survive MP but gai dies if be gets punched clean in the face? MP>>Ei punch 
Ei only shot at cleaning gai is to slice gai in half with his raiton blade he used to cut his hand off.

@poster above


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## ueharakk (Aug 26, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Oh, I'll be on topic.
> 
> So, you can say that Guy can hit super hard, because he's striking super fast, and speed=power because real world physics.
> 
> ...



I have a question.  Why can't more speed = more power, but at the same time Tsunade's hits >>>> Gai's hits?

I don't see how both are mutually exclusive.



Icegaze said:


> Don't like how physics got brought into this . I would like to know why do people think Ei can survive MP but gai dies if be gets punched clean in the face? MP>>Ei punch
> Ei only shot at cleaning gai is to slice gai in half with his raiton blade he used to cut his hand off.



The reason that Ei can survive MP while Gai dies to a punch in the face is because Ei is just way more durable than Gai is even without his RnY on and Gai coughs up blood from shouten kisame and gates don't increase one's durability if anything the person's durability would steadily decrease since the gates break their body down.  That and RnY Ei's hits are just stronger than Gated Gai's hits.


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## Icegaze (Aug 26, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I have a question.  Why can't more speed = more power, but at the same time Tsunade's hits >>>> Gai's hits?
> 
> I don't see how both are mutually exclusive.
> 
> ...



You should read the DB or naruto wiki entry on gates the first gate alone makes u 5 tomes stronger and faster and more durable since it allows access to 100% of the muscle by 6 gate is is sectoral times more durable and faster than in 1st gate . Also Ei got sent flight back from lariat and chidori pierced his shroud . MP>>>>any of those 2 attacks . The fire cause from friction va pirated an entire lake . Clearly that's not. That doesn't even include the force of the punches Ei has to suffer


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## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 26, 2013)

> You should read the DB or naruto wiki entry on gates the first gate alone makes u 5 tomes stronger and faster and more durable since it allows access to 100% of the muscle by 6 gate is is sectoral times more durable and faster than in 1st gate . Also Ei got sent flight back from lariat and chidori pierced his shroud . MP>>>>any of those 2 attacks . The fire cause from friction va pirated an entire lake . Clearly that's not. That doesn't even include the force of the punches Ei has to suffer



I don't have time at the moment to debate much right now, but just a tip.

Don't use the Naruto wiki to rely on information. It's made by fans just like you and I, it isn't a good idea to rely on it.


----------



## Santoryu (Aug 26, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Outside of _Hiraishin no Jutsu_, Minato's speed is comparable to base Ay.



I disagree; it's already been established that base Bee was capable of keeping pace with V1 Ei, and even Kage-Summit Sasuke did the same. Minato, even without Hiraishin was able to outmaneuver Obito (who has great reflexes) and has showcased some of the best shunshin feats in the entire manga. Ei needs to utilize his Raiton-cloak to be comparable to base Minato in the long run.


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## LostSelf (Aug 26, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Oh, I'll be on topic.
> 
> So, you can say that Guy can hit super hard, because he's striking super fast, and speed=power because real world physics.
> 
> ...



This is diferent. Tsunade punches hard, but she hasn't shown to be near Gated Gai's punching speed. That's why it's more plausible to say that if we bring physics here, Gai would punch harder instead of Tsunade punching faster.

But yeah, it was just a comment i made, not trying to go off topic. I just used them both as a comparison of why Kishi ignores logic in the manga to say why Ei won't have his neck broken with an attack.

But that comparison was taken as if i was being butthurt. And so, it became this debate.

@Icegaze: If physics counts here, then absolutely nobody would stand up to MP's destructive power . This reminded me of the Silver Saint that threw one million of punches per second.


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## ueharakk (Aug 26, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> You should read the DB or naruto wiki entry on gates the first gate alone makes u 5 tomes stronger and faster and more durable since it allows access to 100% of the muscle by 6 gate is is sectoral times more durable and faster than in 1st gate .


and those numbers mean jack squat.  Base lee was breaking off gaara's sand armor with his punches.  4th gated lee who by your logic should be either 20 or 625 times stronger than base lee landed tons of hits on gaara yet each hit barely did any more damage than base lee's hits.  6th gated Gai's hits don't even damage the V2 jinchurikis and he couldn't kill shouten kisame with a gated kick to the head. 

And where does the databook say that gates make the person *more durable?* 



Icegaze said:


> Also Ei got sent flight back from lariat and chidori pierced his shroud . MP>>>>any of those 2 attacks . The fire cause from friction va pirated an entire lake . Clearly that's not. That doesn't even include the force of the punches Ei has to suffer


Yet shouten kisame took an MP and his body is still completely intact.  Ei got sent flying back from a lariat means that bee is just that powerful, bee is the same guy who took a chidori to the gut with no lasting damage, took nagato's shinra tensei with little damage, and took punches from juugo right to the jaw and strikes a pose.


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## narut0ninjafan (Aug 26, 2013)

Augustus Haugerud said:


> The point is  you assume real world logic when otherwise hasn't been specified. It's especially important when you compare characters that aren't from the same series, i.e if I wanted to do Hulk vs Tsunade then calcs would be made (not that you should have to as I think the result is obvious).
> 
> Kishi hasn't done anything I can think of that confirms or dismisses this logic. In a filler anime episode I think Ei and Tsunade arm-wrestled and Tsunade was going to win but Ei actually used his speed to win, not canon but if you watch it you'll get what we're trying to say.





LostSelf said:


> Don't bother. I clearly said "IF WE APPLY PHYSICS TO THE MANGA".But, i hate her sooo much that she should be protected. I have an Anti Tsunade group made in Facebook, and i use a picture of her in my room to practice my shooting skills. That's why i use her in an example and something like "If we apply physics, Tsunade's strikes, that are slower than Gai and with less mass should be weaker" is seen like "Tsunade is slower than Gai and weaker." in his eyes. Sadly. .
> 
> @Kenpachi: So you are saying that gated Gai punches harder than Tsunade without using her chakra to enhance her punches? .



But it has been explicitly stated otherwise.

Tsunade has been said to have and shown to have super strength. Why is there a need to try and use physics to show why she shouldn't have super strength? This is a manga about ninjas, who can walk on water, nuke entire villages, summon huge animals and so much more. All of that makes no sense if we apply physics to the manga, yet why does super strength need to have physics applied to it to try and show that it shouldn't be? It's very inconsistent to try and argue on that basis.


----------



## SSMG (Aug 26, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> But it has been explicitly stated otherwise.
> 
> Tsunade has been said to have and shown to have super strength. Why is there a need to try and use physics to show why she shouldn't have super strength? This is a manga about ninjas, who can walk on water, nuke entire villages, summon huge animals and so much more. All of that makes no sense if we apply physics to the manga, yet why does super strength need to have physics applied to it to try and show that it shouldn't be? It's very inconsistent to try and argue on that basis.




He's not using real world physics to say tsunade is weak or doesn't have super strength..just why Guy is stronger than characters like her.

As you said characters can nuke villages...well guy can do just that based off real world physics based off the manga.


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## Icegaze (Aug 27, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> and those numbers mean jack squat.  Base lee was breaking off gaara's sand armor with his punches.  4th gated lee who by your logic should be either 20 or 625 times stronger than base lee landed tons of hits on gaara yet each hit barely did any more damage than base lee's hits.  6th gated Gai's hits don't even damage the V2 jinchurikis and he couldn't kill shouten kisame with a gated kick to the head.
> 
> And where does the databook say that gates make the person *more durable?*
> 
> ...



Your right my bad. So how much damage do you think MP can do to Ei? I mean if lariat sent him flying back and took his shroud off I don't see MP doing any less do you ? I mean it won't kill him but it's not like he would just shrug it off and keep fighting afterall he would be covered in fire


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## LostSelf (Aug 27, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> But it has been explicitly stated otherwise.
> 
> Tsunade has been said to have and shown to have super strength. Why is there a need to try and use physics to show why she shouldn't have super strength? This is a manga about ninjas, who can walk on water, nuke entire villages, summon huge animals and so much more. All of that makes no sense if we apply physics to the manga, yet why does super strength need to have physics applied to it to try and show that it shouldn't be? It's very inconsistent to try and argue on that basis.



Bro. You need to chill out. Tsunade is not your mother, nor your savior, nor your girlfriend. She doesn't exists. If i want to make an example on how her punches would be lightyears weaker than Gated Gai, proving that with physics, then i can do it whenever i want. You don't like it, put me on ignore. Simple.

You're just mad because i made that example. Because it doesn't change the facts that Kishi _ignored logic here_, wich was the point on my argument with Icegaze. Don't quote me to rampage about why i used this example. Unless you prove that my argument is wrong, i won't answer to any other of your butthurtness (With all respect). This is becoming silly already.

And to avoid responding with something diferent to what i said, my argument *about that* was that Kishi doesn't give a darn about logic in his manga. So Ei won't have his neck broken by something that SHOULD break his neck. And to support that claim, i used the example of Gated Gai's striking speed having to logically be muuuuuuuuuuuuuuu [Inset one thousand of "u" here]ch more lethal than Tsunade. Physics prove it.

Seriously, you need to eat a snickers. There's no need to be mad at me because of this.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 27, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Bro. You need to chill out. Tsunade is not your mother, nor your savior, nor your girlfriend. She doesn't exists. If i want to make an example on how her punches would be lightyears weaker than Gated Gai, proving that with physics, then i can do it whenever i want. You don't like it, put me on ignore. Simple.
> 
> You're just mad because i made that example. Because it doesn't change the facts that Kishi _ignored logic here_, wich was the point on my argument with Icegaze. Don't quote me to rampage about why i used this example. Unless you prove that my argument is wrong, i won't answer to any other of your butthurtness (With all respect). This is becoming silly already.
> 
> ...



lol cant even remember our argument . 
anywayz i still have major doubts that Ei can brush off Mp or hirudora


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## narut0ninjafan (Aug 27, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Bro. You need to chill out. Tsunade is not your mother, nor your savior, nor your girlfriend. She doesn't exists. If i want to make an example on how her punches would be lightyears weaker than Gated Gai, proving that with physics, then i can do it whenever i want. You don't like it, put me on ignore. Simple.
> 
> You're just mad because i made that example. Because it doesn't change the facts that Kishi _ignored logic here_, wich was the point on my argument with Icegaze. Don't quote me to rampage about why i used this example. Unless you prove that my argument is wrong, i won't answer to any other of your butthurtness (With all respect). This is becoming silly already.
> 
> ...



It's quite telling you brought Tsunade into your first argument though. You said "a slow punch broke Madara's torso" as if it's impossible. You're the one that seems butthurt, and just because a character has super strength? 

Why did you need to bring that up? I mean, you could have just said Kisame survived AT and that would have been the similar in proving why physics doesn't always work in the manga an actually a far better example since AT is one of Gai's moves, but you had to bring Tsunade into it. It's pathetic that like you said, a character who doesn't even exist occupies so much of your mind that you feel the need to try to (rather stupidly) belittle her at every opportunity. Whatever dude, whatever floats your boat.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 27, 2013)

If Gai starts in Gates, then I would say he takes it.


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## LostSelf (Aug 27, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> lol cant even remember our argument .
> anywayz i still have major doubts that Ei can brush off Mp or hirudora



We were debating about the power of Hidurora and MP, if i recall correctly. And i replied that by logic, it should kill Ei, but Kishi doesn't come up with logic sometimes. Just like MP, this attack logically should one shot anyone that's not the third Raikage (And i bet that even him would die). But Kishi just made it amazing fast punches that creates fire because of the incredible speed, nothing more. Just a powerful attack, but not taking into account that those punches should come up with MUCH more force than Tsunade's punches.

But in Kishiland, things doesn't go this way. Hence why i'm saying that Ei won't die with just one MP or one Hirudora.

But Kishi might've Kisame being a freaking tank that survived such attack and we won't know unless Gai uses it on another enemy.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 27, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> No, Ei can't. But Kishi is not very logically sometimes. For example, Gai's MP should deal a force much more lethal than Tsunade's (I don't know how she has super strenght when her striking speed is not that fast. But to avoid debate, is horribly slower than MP). With the speed behind it, Gai should leave holes in his opponent's body. Yet, a slow punch breaks Madara's torso.
> 
> Hirudora, being that strong, wouldn't break Ei's neck (It didn't break Kisame, despite Gai not wantig to kill him to get information). And yeah, i do believe it's veyr possible that AT destroyed Susano'o, because the Mokuton restraining them lost it's power when Hirudora exploded.
> 
> ...



5k posts, and you don't understand how Tsunade's strength works?


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## SSMG (Aug 27, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> It's quite telling you brought Tsunade into your first argument though. You said "a slow punch broke Madara's torso" as if it's impossible. You're the one that seems butthurt, and just because a character has super strength?
> 
> Why did you need to bring that up? I mean, you could have just said Kisame survived AT and that would have been the similar in proving why physics doesn't always work in the manga an actually a far better example since AT is one of Gai's moves, but you had to bring Tsunade into it. It's pathetic that like you said, a character who doesn't even exist occupies so much of your mind that you feel the need to try to (rather stupidly) belittle her at every opportunity. Whatever dude, whatever floats your boat.



Guy does punch harder than tsunade. she doesn't create air pressure expolsions the size of nukes through the sheer force of her punch.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 27, 2013)

SSMG said:


> Guy does punch harder than tsunade. she doesn't create air pressure expolsions the size of nukes through the sheer force of her punch.



A sudden difference in air pressure would be caused by speed.
It is why a whip snaps.  It is causing a small sonic boom.


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## LostSelf (Aug 27, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> 5k posts, and you don't understand how Tsunade's strength works?



What's the result of force? Mass x Aceleration? In wich one of both  has Tsunade the edge? In none of those. She just has super strenght (She's punches harder than Gai, without applying logic to the manga, not that it would change anything). Gai has more mass and much more speed in his punches. His attacks should be greatly superior to Tsunade. Of course, if we apply physics to the manga. In Kishi's world, it's not the case.

But this is my last post about this matter. I just would be spammig trying to answer people that aren't reading correctly.

And yeah, Tsunade's attacks works with chakra enhancing her punches.


----------



## johnsuwey (Aug 27, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> What's the result of force? Mass x Aceleration? In wich one of both  has Tsunade the edge? In none of those. She just has super strenght (She's punches harder than Gai, without applying logic to the manga, not that it would change anything). Gai has more mass and much more speed in his punches. His attacks should be greatly superior to Tsunade. Of course, if we apply physics to the manga. In Kishi's world, it's not the case.
> 
> But this is my last post about this matter. I just would be spammig trying to answer people that aren't reading correctly.
> 
> And yeah, Tsunade's attacks works with chakra enhancing her punches.



Logic applies to the manga.  The problem is you aren't incorporating the new rules in the naruto universe.  Chakra is a new rule that must be taken into consideration.  It is sort of like Dark Energy in our own universe.  We don't really understand it, but that doesn't mean we can't observe its effects.


I read an interesting study awhile back that claimed Spongebob was making kids dumber.  They believe that the shows illogical nature, and it's disconnect with reality was the cause.


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## SSMG (Aug 27, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> A sudden difference in air pressure would be caused by speed.
> It is why a whip snaps.  It is causing a small sonic boom.


 You do understand how force works, right? Its m/a. so yeah guys huge force is due to his speed.. but the AT is caused from his force. Which is why his high speed affects it.
 Tsunade has not shown to hit anywhere near the amount of force to create any sonic booms .. let alone what would have been the biggest sonic boom in ourhuman history if guy used it in real life.


You say its a small spnic boom that guy does yet its from under the oceans surface to the clouds... thats bigger than any sonic boom ever recorded... not even the 1888 siberan sonic boom from an asteroid /meteor that expolded in the atmosphere. and flattened an enitre country sized forest did this...yet Guys AT is a bigger sonic.boom than that.


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## Icegaze (Aug 27, 2013)

SSMG said:


> You do understand how force works, right? Its m/a. so yeah guys huge force is due to his speed.. but the AT is caused from hus force. Which is why his high speed affects it.
> Tsunade has not shown to hit anywhere near the amount of force to create any sonic booms .. let alone what woukd have been the biggest sonic boom in ourhuman history if guy used it in real life.
> 
> 
> You say its a small spnic boom that guy does yet its from under tje oceans surface to the clouds... thags bigger than any sonic boom ever recorded... not even the 1888 siberan sonic boom from an asteroid /metoer that expolded in the atmosphere. and flattened an enitre country sized forest did this.



please note people that hirudora >>tsunade punch shown by the fact that hirudora destroyed level 3 susanoo while tsunade punch couldnt dent it. so yes gai punches harder in 7 gates using a specific super fast punch techinque. 
these are the type of arguments i expected to see. Not the rubbish you have above talking about force and mass and all that other extra BS you have been debating


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## SSMG (Aug 27, 2013)

Its not rubbish. if tsunade can punch harder than guy where are her huge explosions coming off her top tier punches? thats the biggest indicator for me of just how powerful Guy can hit. ...
but yeah your example makes this alot easier....


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## johnsuwey (Aug 27, 2013)

SSMG said:


> You do understand how force works, right? Its m/a. so yeah guys huge force is due to his speed.. but the AT is caused from his force. Which is why his high speed affects it.
> Tsunade has not shown to hit anywhere near the amount of force to create any sonic booms .. let alone what would have been the biggest sonic boom in ourhuman history if guy used it in real life.
> 
> 
> You say its a small spnic boom that guy does yet its from under the oceans surface to the clouds... thats bigger than any sonic boom ever recorded... not even the 1888 siberan sonic boom from an asteroid /meteor that expolded in the atmosphere. and flattened an enitre country sized forest did this...yet Guys AT is a bigger sonic.boom than that.



I am just giving you some knowledge and facts.
f=ma
For one guy mass is constant.
Thus a stronger punch has to come faster speed.

hirudora is just a really fast punch, as gai said.

Note:  I never claimed Tsundae's punches could match the force of hirudora.  
Though another thing to consider is pressure.  F/Area.  Even a small amount of pressure difference in a large area equates to a huge amount of force necessary to overcome it.  

Thus it stands to reason that Tsundae's punches, which are centered on a much smaller area, could have far more pressure.


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## SSMG (Aug 27, 2013)

Even bringing pressure intp this...guy can just hit his opponent directly with his fist going the same it would for creating an AT..but if he hits his.opponents directly with hisfist instead of petting it explode it'd be huge amounts of pressure.way more than what tsunade hits with... this is why guys At didn't ko kisime yet his 7th gated punch to kosames gut did.

but even still guys AT destroyed.madaras v3 susanno where's tsunades punch didn't.. meaning his AT has even more pressure or force or whatever you wanna go with than Tsunade.


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## Icegaze (Aug 27, 2013)

SSMG said:


> Its not rubbish. if tsunade can punch harder than guy where are her huge explosions coming off her top tier punches? thats the biggest indicator for me of just how powerful Guy can hit. ...
> but yeah your example makes this alot easier....



It kinda is seeing that f=ma doesn't apply to kishi world nor does any real world physics so it shouldn't be applied . Fact is guy gated special punches are stronger than tsuande's that's all that needs to be known

For example it find it stupid when people say FRS is supersonic when such was never stated in the manga . Not to say its slow since the 3rd dodging it meant he has great reflexes similar to his son who dodged an attack stated to be instant . However that's wot makes FrS fast not the crossing a mountain in 1 second therefore it's super sonic that's utter BS. FRS is fast and that's it . Not supersonic not hypersonic etc.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 27, 2013)

supersonic has no meaning in the series unless we have seen someone talk about velocity.


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## Icegaze (Aug 27, 2013)

Actually it does 
Kisame actually specifically said gai MP is caused by supersonic movement 
That was written in the manga which is why it has value


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## johnsuwey (Aug 27, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Actually it does
> Kisame actually specifically said gai MP is caused by supersonic movement
> That was written in the manga which is why it has value



Okay fine, but we don't have any actual numbers to compare, so it is again meaningless.
We have no evidence to support the travel speed of any jutsu, or the speed at which shinobi can move.


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## SSMG (Aug 27, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> It kinda is seeing that f=ma doesn't apply to kishi world nor does any real world physics so it shouldn't be applied . Fact is guy gated special punches are stronger than tsuande's that's all that needs to be known
> 
> For example it find it stupid when people say FRS is supersonic when such was never stated in the manga . Not to say its slow since the 3rd dodging it meant he has great reflexes similar to his son who dodged an attack stated to be instant . However that's wot makes FrS fast not the crossing a mountain in 1 second therefore it's super sonic that's utter BS. FRS is fast and that's it . Not supersonic not hypersonic etc.



Yea i agree. kishi doesn't give a darn about physics..he just wants stuff to be flashy for the audience... but when we are in vs topics we should use real life physics in comparison to each other if there is no direct comparison between the two...that's how I've always done it. esepcially when debating cross universes this isthe only way you can do it...

i just forgot such a comparison was in the manga.


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## ueharakk (Aug 27, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Your right my bad.


dude it's all good, you don't have to apologize or even agree.



Icegaze said:


> So how much damage do you think MP can do to Ei? I mean if lariat sent him flying back and took his shroud off I don't see MP doing any less do you ? I mean it won't kill him but it's not like he would just shrug it off and keep fighting afterall he would be covered in fire



in the other thread you made i said Ei takes a 6 from MP, meaning he gets pretty damaged from the attack, but it doesn't kill him or beat him.


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## Icegaze (Aug 27, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> dude it's all good, you don't have to apologize or even agree.
> 
> 
> 
> in the other thread you made i said Ei takes a 6 from MP, meaning he gets pretty damaged from the attack, but it doesn't kill him or beat him.



Agreed. So it means gai chances of beating EI are quite high . MP had the better range and I am still of the opinion that gai can move his fist before Ei can cross the distance between them and punch him . Same way while Ei has much better footspeed than itachi , itachi can perform jutsu way before Ei gets to him because itachi hand seal speed is still superior . 

On that premise, given the starting distance it's not completely impossible that gai can deal a 6/10 or more damage from the get go . gai can go from base to 6 gates just as quickly as Ei shrouds up 
then Ei shunshin straight ahead for the kill punch just to eat fire  punches in the face . From there who takes the lead is pretty straight forward since we can agree 6/10 damage isn't something you waltz away from


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## ueharakk (Aug 27, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Agreed. So it means gai chances of beating EI are quite high . MP had the better range and I am still of the opinion that gai can move his fist before Ei can cross the distance between them and punch him . Same way while Ei has much better footspeed than itachi , itachi can perform jutsu way before Ei gets to him because itachi hand seal speed is still superior .


that's if Ei is the one advancing.  With knowledge, Ei doesn't run straight into the opponent, he flanks them.  So only under the circumstance that Gai has knowledge and Ei doesn't would that play out.



Icegaze said:


> On that premise, given the starting distance it's not completely impossible that gai can deal a 6/10 or more damage from the get go . gai can go from base to 6 gates just as quickly as Ei shrouds up


not really, Ei shrouds up just as fast as KCM Naruto shrouds up: in an instant and requires no prep.

Unless Gai is already in gates, he can't go into that form instantly, it takes him more than a moment to cross his arms and release the gate.



Icegaze said:


> then Ei shunshin straight ahead for the kill punch just to eat fire  punches in the face . From there who takes the lead is pretty straight forward since we can agree 6/10 damage isn't something you waltz away from


If Ei shunshins at Gai with V2, I don't see how Gai's going to be able to land MP before Ei hits him considering no one but KCM Naruto, Minato and Tobi can even dodge that attack.  If anything MP and the V2 shunshin punch will clash which results in both parties getting damaged.


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## Icegaze (Aug 28, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> that's if Ei is the one advancing.  With knowledge, Ei doesn't run straight into the opponent, he flanks them.  So only under the circumstance that Gai has knowledge and Ei doesn't would that play out.
> 
> 
> not really, Ei shrouds up just as fast as KCM Naruto shrouds up: in an instant and requires no prep.
> ...



Wrong !! With full knowledge on minato he went for a linear straight forward attack which means its something he could do. Against jugo and sasuke he did the same 
Gai has shown he can go from base to 6th in one panel no arms crossed or nothing . Both agains saiken attack and when chasin kisame . it was done in panel which is the same panel time it takes Ei to amp up . I agree if Ei max shunshin gai may actually not hit him in that exchange as if gai does would be mutual damage . May is however the operative word because I am still of the opinion that gai can throw a punch before Ei shushin can get to gai. If gai can land one punch thus starting his technique Ei won't b able to do much till It ends. 

Gai also has excellent base reaction feats as well as very good speed feat in gates . He outright blitz kisame . 30% kisame has never been suggested to be slower or have less reactions than the original . So ill say gai won't b getting blitz and while he certainly cannot get out of the way of Ei punch like naruto did. He can surely throw a flamin punch , if Ei gets hit by 1 gai only need throw the remaining 100 or more punches to send Ei flying back in flames . 

I say Ei wins 5.1/10


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## ueharakk (Aug 28, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Wrong !!


now that's more like it.



Icegaze said:


> With full knowledge on minato he went for a linear straight forward attack which means its something he could do. Against jugo and sasuke he did the same


1) Minato didn't have anything that could be dangerous to Ei if Ei ran right into him that's why Ei can charge right at him.  Juugo as well.
2) look at what ei does to sasuke once he knows about amaterasu and what he does against madara



Icegaze said:


> Gai has shown he can go from base to 6th in one panel no arms crossed or nothing .


post that panel please.



Icegaze said:


> Both agains saiken attack and when chasin kisame .


He took more than a panel against kisame, and he didn't use the 6th gate against saiken in the manga.



Icegaze said:


> it was done in panel which is the same panel time it takes Ei to amp up .


No it doesn't.  Only V2 requires a panel, V1 RnY is as instant as Naruto's KCM.



Icegaze said:


> I agree if Ei max shunshin gai may actually not hit him in that exchange as if gai does would be mutual damage . May is however the operative word because I am still of the opinion that gai can throw a punch before Ei shushin can get to gai. If gai can land one punch thus starting his technique Ei won't b able to do much till It ends.


Er, why would Gai being able to throw a punch before Ei shunshins to him be the deciding factor?  If Gai starts to throw the punch, before Ei gets there, Ei takes the punch and Gai takes Ei's punch, or Ei clashes his far more  powerful punch against Gai's.



Icegaze said:


> Gai also has excellent base reaction feats as well as very good speed feat in gates . He outright blitz kisame . 30% kisame has never been suggested to be slower or have less reactions than the original .


Which is the equivalent of what KN1 Naruto did to Orochimaru and Hebi Sasuke did to Deidara.  Yet both KN1 Naruto and Sasuke are slow compared to even V1 Ei.



Icegaze said:


> So ill say gai won't b getting blitz and while he certainly cannot get out of the way of Ei punch like naruto did. He can surely throw a flamin punch , if Ei gets hit by 1 gai only need throw the remaining 100 or more punches to send Ei flying back in flames .


So Gai throws a flaming punch and takes a V2 shunshin punch.  Or at best, he clashes a flaming punch with Ei's shunshin punch.  

I don't understand how gai who has lesser reach than Ei is going to hit ei with a punch, but not get hit himself by Ei's own.



Icegaze said:


> I say Ei wins 5.1/10


Dude, you don't have to compromise just say Gai wins and after we argue the whole thing out, then if we can come to some kind of numerical conclusion.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 28, 2013)

Speed is dependent on Chakra.

Why do you think the kyuubi modes is a huge speed increase?  Because his muscles got bigger? lol



Gai's attacks are too wide, and he won't be able to get through the Kage's armor.
Gai would probably be lucky to keep up at 7 gates.  
Once Gai has to resort to gates, then all EI has to do is not get beat, and he wins automatically.
Gai gets pwned!


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## Icegaze (Aug 29, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> now that's more like it.
> 
> 
> 1) Minato didn't have anything that could be dangerous to Ei if Ei ran right into him that's why Ei can charge right at him.  Juugo as well.
> ...



 how is v1 Ei instant? kishi draws a panel to show he shrouds up. how is that any faster than the `1 panel below showing gai go from base to 6th gate.  again. 

Gamabunta was still getting pushed back done in 1 panel. 

granted he may flank gai, however he needs to travel a grearter distance to do so. which gives gai more time to react 

 what does coming to a numerical conclusion mean? when we are discussing a manga!!!

*we saw gai activate 7 gates and use hirudora in 1 panel against madara as well mind you. hirudora took out level 3 susnaoo. So the assumption that Ei can tank that as well is ridiculous.* 

Ei going from base to V1. Done in 1 panel. 

Gamabunta was still getting pushed back

that is no quicker than gai going 7 gates and using hirudora in the same panel. 

so gai going gates isnt an issue. 

also gai has the much longer reach here  and he is the one with a special punch that can break level 3 susanoo while raikage's punch cant even crack the same rib cage

EI shrouds up at any level he choose(if he doesnt go v2 from the get go he is getting punched to death) gai goes gates either 6 or 7 depending on what floats his boat. Ei attacks cuz Ei has the better footspeed gai counter attacks. if Ei is still 1m or 1/2m from gai hirudora would still have the longer reach than Ei punch so would Mp. Ei cant do anything to you till you are at arms reach


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