# Bleachverse hax vs Narutoverse hax



## uchihakil (Aug 29, 2016)

1. The Almighty vs Kotoamatsukami
2. Kyoukasuigetsu vs tsukiyomi
3. Respira vs Amaterasu
4. Ichimonji vs DMS kamui
5. Gerrards hax miracle vs nagato's chimera dog
6. The exorcist vs infinite tsukiyomi
7. Pernida's nerves vs goudodama
8. Gremmy's imagination vs 3tomoe genjutsu
9. Kyouraku's bankai vs jmans frog song/kabuto's muugen onsa
10. Urahara's bankai vs limbo clones

So which hax from what verse wins?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 29, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> 1. The Almighty vs Kotoamatsukami
> 2. Kyoukasuigetsu vs tsukiyomi
> 3. Respira vs Amaterasu
> 4. Ichimonji vs DMS kamui
> ...



Bleach wins 8 out of 10 times:

Almighty
Kyouka Suigetsu
Respira
Ichimonji
Gerard's Miracle
Infinite Tsukiyomi
Goudodama
Gremmy's Imagination
Kyouraki's Bankai
Urahara's Bankai

The Almighty can rewrite Yhwach's own death *after the fact*. If he can rewrite the future when he has no consciousness to do it, why would a change in consciousness overpower it?

Kyouka Suigetsu for the simple reason it is permanent once applied and the only counter is literally touching the weapon Aizen will use to kill you.

Respira for its ability to affect even raw energy.

Ichimonji because it's conceptual haxx.

The Miracle because it's completely immune even to vaporisation or conceptual attack.

Assuming it's in Vollstandig, X-Axis wins. I don't think Infinite Tsukiyomi bypasses intangibility. Meanwhile, X-Axis can disable the medium/caster for the win.

Goudodama because the nerves would be vaporised like anything else it touches.

Gremmy's Imagination because, what, city-level meteor spam?

Kyouraku's bankai can affect intangibles.

Urahara's Bankai can be resummoned if pinned down and its ability to restructure space is broken.

Reactions: Like 1 | Useful 1


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## AllAboveOne (Aug 29, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> 6. *The exorcist *vs infinite tsukiyomi


?


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 29, 2016)

AllAboveOne said:


> ?



I think OP means X-Axis. Probably an autocorrect issue.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Warlordgab (Aug 29, 2016)

AllAboveOne said:


> ?



I think he meant "X-Axis". The "Exorcist" thing was a mistranslation

Reactions: Informative 1


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 29, 2016)

Bleach has superior hax.

Amaterasu and truth seekers ain't even really hax in terms of how they do damage.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MusubiKazesaru (Aug 29, 2016)

No Fuinjutsu? Really?

Reactions: Like 1


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## shade0180 (Aug 29, 2016)

some of the item for Naruto isn't even considered hax.





Amaterasu - Just a very hot flame
nagato's chimera dog - Really?
goudodama - Powerful ability =/= hax

Reactions: Agree 3


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## uchihakil (Aug 29, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Bleach wins 8 out of 10 times:
> 
> Almighty
> Kyouka Suigetsu
> ...



Hmm, nice post, though I think ama is broken its faster than respira + ama was can also affect none materialistic stuff like fire and yes I meant the X-axis and I'm sure IT can affect intangible beings as long as those intangible beings can see the moon, I think they get affected, but you gave legit reasons with the rest


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Aug 29, 2016)

I would argue that narutoverse's is better because the people there actually know how to use their powers instead of being a bunch of retards who babble on about how invincible their powers are and then get rekt by the stupidest shit but...

Reactions: Like 15


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## uchihakil (Aug 29, 2016)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> No Fuinjutsu? Really?



Forgot bout'em what more hax stuff can you think of from both verses?


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## uchihakil (Aug 29, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> some of the item for Naruto isn't even considered hax.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yea the dog does'nt die easily and multiplies after getting hit more, so yes it's kinda hax, survived an attack that destroys the body on molecular level, survived getting cut, electricuted, lit on fire, sliced by gamabuntas sword, hit by giant summons, so yea it's pretty hax, his hax is kinda like gerrards, since the more you hit it, the more it multiplies , goudodama is also hax, negating attacks, and vapourising opponents (its pretty much unbeatable without the right requirements)

Reactions: Useful 1


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 29, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Forgot bout'em what more hax stuff can you think of from both verses?


Some good sealing moves are danzo's reverse four symbol seal, totsuka blade, killer bee ink clone sealing and gaara's coffin seals.

Minato and hiruzen's death god demon seal can seal souls but at the cost of the users life.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## shade0180 (Aug 29, 2016)

there's also
Hidan's seals
Pain's Naraka path

Reactions: Agree 1


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 29, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> there's also
> Hidan's seals
> Pain's Naraka path


Yeah these are good as well. They take a bit of time tho especially hidan's ritual it's not strong in one on one or battles with knowledge. Naraka path being able to literally bring dead bodies back to life is underrated. Kabuto was going to have nagato snatch bee and naruto's souls, store their bodies in the king of hell and bring them back using it later.


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## uchihakil (Aug 29, 2016)

- Remembered some, the sealing pot that kinkaku was sealed (when an opponents name is called and he/she answers, he gets sealed)
- Nagato's soul dragon
- sasuke's coreless chibaku tensei
- moon chibaku tensei

Likewise I left out some other hax in bleach, hidan aginst the zombie girl would be a funny duel, she uses her blood that's splattered on people, he uses his opponents blood for his rituals


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 29, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> - Remembered some, the sealing pot that kinkaku was sealed (when an opponents name is called and he/she answers, he gets sealed)


Forgot about this yeah it's a little broken. That fight was so bad tho lol. But yeah with knowledge it'd be near useless.


> - Nagato's soul dragon


The databook kinda nerfed it by saying it just rip chakra from the victim even tho the manga clearly shows souls leaving the bodies. 


> - sasuke's coreless chibaku tensei


Don't think gravity is actually hax.


> - moon chibaku tensei


Not really hax just a huge scale of power. It only depowers juubi jins/kaguya.


> Likewise I left out some other hax in bleach, hidan aginst the zombie girl would be a funny duel, she uses her blood that's splattered on people, he uses his opponents blood for his rituals


Giselle blood hax is more flexible in most scenarios. I forgot if giselle got some level of immortality due to his zombie powers


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## uchihakil (Aug 29, 2016)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Forgot about this yeah it's a little broken. That fight was so bad tho lol. But yeah with knowledge it'd be near useless.
> 
> The databook kinda nerfed it by saying it just rip chakra from the victim even tho the manga clearly shows souls leaving the bodies.
> 
> ...



It's a he?? I really thought he was a she, moon CT seals away one's power, then makes him/her the centre of gravity (even madara lost all his powers inclusing hashi enhancements).

Some stuff are borderline hax, so I don't know were to label some techniques


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## uchihakil (Aug 29, 2016)

Limbo should be more broken than urahara's bankai, an invisible clone that can use the originals ability, freeze opponents, can block attacks with zero damage (sakura's punch), limbo is hax as fuck


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## Xhominid (Aug 29, 2016)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> I would argue that narutoverse's is better because the people there actually know how to use their powers instead of being a bunch of retards who babble on about how invincible their powers are and then get rekt by the stupidest shit but...



Then Madara, Kaguya and Obito completely shits all over that.

Obito could have won the whole damn manga if he just used his Kamui intelligently and gathered every Tailed Beast and Jinchikurri himself. Tada, no one even knows what just happened.

Madara pretty much played with his food to the point of being a DBZ character...on top of being a DBZ character. 

And Kaguya pretty much speaks for herself.

And let's not forget how they got wrecked on top of that...

Any props Naruto can get, you can easily look at it and watch it be shat all over by something else.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 2


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## SSBMonado (Aug 29, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Limbo should be more broken than urahara's bankai, an invisible clone that can use the originals ability, freeze opponents, can block attacks with zero damage (*sakura's punch*), limbo is hax as fuck


Implying that he needed to block that to begin with?


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## uchihakil (Aug 29, 2016)

SSBMonado said:


> Implying that he needed to block that to begin with?



Just gaving an example that limbo can stop any none rikudou enhanced attack, basically madara can no sell 8 gates guy with limbo and tank all his attacks (but madara decided to give the dude a chance for plot sake)


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## xenos5 (Aug 29, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Just gaving an example that limbo can stop any none rikudou enhanced attack, basically madara can no sell 8 gates guy with limbo and tank all his attacks (but madara decided to give the dude a chance for plot sake)



Or maybe the limbo clone wasn't fast enough so Juubi Madz knew Gai could easily avoid it? And you also have to keep in mind that there was an off panel fight where he could've used the limbo clone.


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## uchihakil (Aug 29, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Or maybe the limbo clone wasn't fast enough so Juubi Madz knew Gai could easily avoid it? And you also have to keep in mind that there was an off panel fight where he could've used the limbo clone.



No if madara used limbo, guy would be dead cuz madara would freeze guy mid air,  when madara was hit the first time, he could have sent limbo to take out guy then he comes out of the cave, he can switch out of any attack with the limbo etc etc


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## Crackle (Aug 29, 2016)

Bleach wins. Enemies were given such hax abilities that Kubo was actually forced to make them suffer massive CIS or limit their range of hax or just give a dumb explanation just have the enemies lose realistically

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Brooks (Aug 29, 2016)

Sasuke's Amenotejikara should easily be on that list. The nigg-a can't only teleport shit into  you, but can also teleport  you as a whole. 

List of its capabilities. 

.Teleportation of himself and others. 
.Spatial Manipulation
.Even Dimension Manipulation (but that can disagree with...as I am not sure if that is indeed Amenotejikara doing.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## xenos5 (Aug 29, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> No if madara used limbo, guy would be dead cuz madara would freeze guy mid air,  when madara was hit the first time, he could have sent limbo to take out guy then he comes out of the cave, he can switch out of any attack with the limbo etc etc



Gai blitzed Juubi Madara. He would have no trouble getting around a limbo clone. And how would Gai be Frozen mid air by one attack from a limbo clone? He's not a glass cannon at all. He was able to take the force of his own attacks without his limbs breaking except for his foot with Night Gai.

Reactions: MAXIMUM 1


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## Crackle (Aug 29, 2016)

Brooks said:


> Sasuke's Amenotejikara should easily be on that list. The nigg-a can't only teleport shit into  you, but can also teleport  you as a whole.
> 
> List of its capabilities.
> 
> ...


When did he ever teleport something into someone? The only time I recall was when he swapped places While Juubidara was flying towards him so Juubidara flew into his sword.


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## Brooks (Aug 29, 2016)

Crackle said:


> When did he ever teleport something into someone? The only time I recall was when he swapped places While Juubidara was flying towards him so Juubidara flew into his sword.



He swapped places with the sword and it was able to pierce Madara in that angle? Yeah, cool story.


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## Crackle (Aug 30, 2016)

Brooks said:


> Yeah, cool story.


Thanks I guess?


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## uchihakil (Aug 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Gai blitzed Juubi Madara. He would have no trouble getting around a limbo clone. And how would Gai be Frozen mid air by one attack from a limbo clone? He's not a glass cannon at all. He was able to take the force of his own attacks without his limbs breaking except for his foot with Night Gai.



He was breaking on his own, errybody knows how the gates strain is (lee said he can't imagine how much pain guy is feeling right now) besides that's not even the point. The point is guy can NOT percieve limbo, him being/not being glass canon does'nt even matter in the first place, cuz limbo would still freeze his ass, I agree though that when guy is in motion madara mostlikely can't pull it off (but when madara was in the hole, he could've easily sent a clone to either finish, or freeze guy). and again guy can NOT go around limbo cuz he can't see nor sense it for crying out loud


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## xenos5 (Aug 30, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> He was breaking on his own, errybody knows how the gates strain is (lee said he can't imagine how much pain guy is feeling right now) besides that's not even the point. The point is guy can NOT percieve limbo, him being/not being glass canon does'nt even matter in the first place, cuz limbo would still freeze his ass, I agree though that when guy is in motion madara mostlikely can't pull it off (but when madara was in the hole, he could've easily sent a clone to either finish, or freeze guy). and again guy can NOT go around limbo cuz he can't see nor sense it for crying out loud



A physical strike from a limbo clone wouldn't really hinder Gai as he numbed himself to pain soon after he went into the 8th gate. By the point you get used to the pain of the 8th gate you may as well feel nothing at all.


"Either finish or freeze guy"

Finish? A limbo clone isn't freezing Gai with one strike let alone finishing him.

You admitted that Juubi Madz can't pull it off when Gai is in motion. So why would Gai have to go around it? Juubi Madz can't react well enough to Gai's speed to make a limbo clone get into Gai's path and the limbo clone would be too slow to get in position even if Juubi Madz barely reacted.


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## uchihakil (Aug 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> A physical strike from a limbo clone wouldn't really hinder Gai as he numbed himself to pain soon after he went into the 8th gate. By the point you get used to the pain of the 8th gate you may as well feel nothing at all.
> 
> 
> "Either finish or freeze guy"
> ...



You miss my point, when madara was in the hole (after gotten hit the first time with issoku) he could've used it to freeze guy, why? Cuz guy was gradually falling (could'nt continue the combo due to his cracked leg before adjusting to the pain) it was a perfect chance to use limbo, but madara wanted to see what guy was made of first hand, so he did'nt.


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## xenos5 (Aug 30, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> You miss my point, when madara was in the hole (after gotten hit the first time with issoku) he could've used it to freeze guy, why? Cuz guy was gradually falling (could'nt continue the combo due to his cracked leg before adjusting to the pain) it was a perfect chance to use limbo, but madara wanted to see what guy was made of first hand, so he did'nt.



Do you have any proof JJ Madz could even tell what was happening to Gai from his vantage point many kilometres deep into the ground? His dialogue doesn't seem to indicate that at all. He was just thinking to himself about he didn't want to get hit by too many more evening elephant stomps or a direct punch.


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## Zern227 (Aug 30, 2016)

The thing with the Limbo clones is that you need Senjutsu to hit them, which is the reason Sauce couldn't hit them but Nardo can.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xenos5 (Aug 30, 2016)

Zern227 said:


> The thing with the Limbo clones is that you need Senjutsu to hit them, which is the reason Sauce couldn't hit them but Nardo can.



I know that. But the fact of the matter is that they aren't fast enough to get in Gai's way when he's started moving. And even if he does get hit once by one of them his extremely reduced sense of pain from having gotten used to the 8th gate (and durability from even being able to withstand it) mean he'll get right back up from one of their hits like nothing.


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## Seekingsoul (Aug 30, 2016)

Imo, some of the haxx vs haxx match-up could be improved.

For example, *Izanagi* (depending on its user, from *Danzou* to the *Sage of the six paths*) could either match or surpass the likes of *Gremmy's Visionary *or *Juha's Almighty *as it is also a creation via the user's imagination and power.

Anyway;

1. *The Almighty* > Kotoamatsukami
(the reality warping of A is better than the mind-control of Koto and generally more valuable).

2. *Kyoukasuigetsu* > tsukiyomi
(though Tsu is far more potent for sprints, Kyo's ability to run a marathon gives it the overall win imo)

3. *Respira* > Amaterasu
(While both really aren't that impressive as far as I'm concerned, the Age effect of respira is a better bonus than Amat's 7days/7nights burn)

4. Ichimonji < *DMS kamui*
(Though Ichimonji has superior effect, the activation process, with the ink, considerably lets it down imo)

5. *Gerrards hax miracle *> nagato's chimera dog (the dog isn't haxx at all... Nagato's soul power/soul chain via hand or GM is a different story though).

6. The exorcist < *infinite tsukiyomi*
(IT. It has planetary+ range, so escape is futile so long as your presence is within its range)

7. Pernida's nerves* < goudodama (*TSB is far greater; It even counters the nerves).

8. *Gremmy's Visionary* *>* 3tomoe genjutsu
(A mere 3tomoe gen can't match such a power, though Gremmy would still ironically lose badly via suicide to that mere 3tomoe anyway because his mental capacity is decrepit)

9. *Kyouraku's bankai *> jmans frog song/kabuto's muugen onsa
(the bankai is overall superior as it can affect intangible beings).

10. Urahara's bankai *< limbo clones *(limbo is far superior).


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## uchihakil (Aug 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Do you have any proof JJ Madz could even tell what was happening to Gai from his vantage point many kilometres deep into the ground? His dialogue doesn't seem to indicate that at all. He was just thinking to himself about he didn't want to get hit by too many more evening elephant stomps or a direct punch.



Limbo can act on their own dude, he does'nt have to know what guy was doing, + madara is a sensor, he'd sense guy not doing nothing, well nevertheless I still think it's better than urahara's bankai


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## Seekingsoul (Aug 30, 2016)

Madara didn't use Limbo against Gai because he wanted to be "amused" and have "fun", though his recklessness almost cost him.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## uchihakil (Aug 30, 2016)

Seekingsoul said:


> Imo, some of the haxx vs haxx match-up could be improved.
> 
> For example, *Izanagi* (depending on its user, from *Danzou* to the *Sage of the six paths*) could either match or surpass the likes of *Gremmy's Visionary *or *Juha's Almighty *as it is also a creation via the user's imagination and power.
> 
> ...



I agree with your post, except I'd choose ama over respira because amaterasu has better range and it's faster, + ama does'nt back fire on it's opponents while respira does, so I'd choose ama more times than respira


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## uchihakil (Aug 30, 2016)

Seekingsoul said:


> Madara didn't use Limbo against Gai because he wanted to be "amused" and have "fun", though his recklessness almost cost him.



I know right


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## shade0180 (Aug 30, 2016)

Seekingsoul said:


> Madara didn't use Limbo against Gai because he wanted to be "amused" and have "fun", though his recklessness almost cost him.




There's also the point the Limbo wouldn't be able to react to Gai considering Madara himself couldn't even move out of the way after Gai started his moved.

Seriously you guys think the clones are faster than the main body?

Reactions: Like 1 | Useful 1


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## Zern227 (Aug 30, 2016)

Gai does deserve a lot of credit but if it wasn't for outside intervention Madara would have been just fine inside his goudodama sphere.


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## uchihakil (Aug 30, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> There's also the point the Limbo wouldn't be able to react to Gai considering Madara himself couldn't even move out of the way after Gai started his moved.
> 
> Seriously you guys think the clones are faster than the main body?



You missed the part were it says the clones are as strong as the orginal (the clones defeated naruto's clones offpanel)

Reactions: Informative 1


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## shade0180 (Aug 30, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> You missed the part were it says the clones are as strong as the orginal (the clones defeated naruto's clones offpanel)



I didn't

pls read what I posted properly.



shade0180 said:


> *Seriously you guys think the clones are faster than the main body?*



I never Implied that the clone is weaker.




this is what will happen with or without the limbo.

Madara literally couldn't see Gai once he started moving.



Zern227 said:


> Gai does deserve a lot of credit but if it wasn't for outside intervention Madara would have been just fine inside his goudodama sphere.



He wasn't even touching Madara with his attack, Madara literally put a godo blockade and that didn't stop him from getting damage.

as shown here.
 - blockade
 - the shockwave hit Madara.

Seriously the only reason Kishi needed to get them to open the Godosphere is for Gai to throw a direct hit as shown later on considering the only way a godosphere will be useful is if Gai touches it.

 He was literally doing fine when he was just throwing shockwaves on Madara.

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## xenos5 (Aug 30, 2016)

I was going to respond but Shade pretty much covered what I wanted to say in response. So @shade0180 thanks man.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## uchihakil (Aug 30, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> I didn't
> 
> pls read what I posted properly.
> 
> ...



Okay I misread your post, but I agree that madara can't use limbo properly while guy is in motion, so you don't have to explain all that, what I said was when madara was in the hole, he could've used it, and against guy goudo sphere is a better defence than limbo cuz it covers his whole body while limbo can only stop an attack from the position it's standing, and with guys speed when he's in motion, madara (especially with 1 clone) can't tag him

Reactions: Informative 1


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## xenos5 (Aug 30, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Okay I misread your post, but I agree that madara can't use limbo properly while guy is in motion, so you don't have to explain all that, what I said was when madara was in the hole, he could've used it, and against guy goudo sphere is a better defence than limbo cuz it covers his whole body while limbo can only stop an attack from the position it's standing, and with guys speed when he's in motion, madara (especially with 1 clone) can't tag him



Juubi Madara was strategizing, didn't know Gai was taking a little bit to get used to the 8th gate (you can say he's a sensor all you want but his dialogue indicated he didn't know), and was himself reeling a little from the EE stomp he took. using the limbo clone while in the hole wouldn't really be effective either as he'd have to take the time to get out of the hole to follow up on it with another attack by which time Gai would already have recovered.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Zern227 (Aug 30, 2016)

I didn't mention the blockade for a reason because Gai could go around it I was specifically talking about the sphere he put around himself where Gai would not of hit him if it weren't for Kakashi making an opening in the sphere.


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## uchihakil (Aug 30, 2016)

Well we are going off topic, limbo >>> urahara's bankai (that was the main point all along)


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## xenos5 (Aug 30, 2016)

Zern227 said:


> I didn't mention the blockade for a reason because Gai could go around it I was specifically talking about the sphere he put around himself where Gai would not of hit him if it weren't for Kakashi making an opening in the sphere.



TBH I think Gai could've cracked it open with a point blank evening elephant stomp possibly. He forced Juubi Madz body through the sphere with a direct hit and a point blank shot would just be a little less close so the force shouldn't be too much different. It could've led to a really cool combo as well since Gai could've air kicked to go into his own evening elephant stomp/air cannon to use it as a springboard for a direct punch/EE stomp. Sadly Kishi wasn't that creative.


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## Zern227 (Aug 30, 2016)

Gai was already on a timer and if it I'm not entire sure if he would have enough time. Minato and Lee already did a good job of stopping the gudodama from either hitting guy or completely disrupting his momentum by causing him to dodge.


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## xenos5 (Aug 30, 2016)

Zern227 said:


> Gai was already on a timer and if it I'm not entire sure if he would have enough time. Minato and Lee already did a good job of stopping the gudodama from either hitting guy or completely disrupting his momentum by causing him to dodge.



Gai had an entire offscreen fight with Juubi Madz after that. I'd say he had enough time.


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## uchihakil (Aug 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> TBH I think Gai could've cracked it open with a point blank evening elephant stomp possibly. He forced Juubi Madz body through the sphere with a direct hit and a point blank shot would just be a little less close so the force shouldn't be too much different. It could've led to a really cool combo as well since Gai could've air kicked to go into his own evening elephant stomp/air cannon to use it as a springboard for a direct punch/EE stomp. Sadly Kishi wasn't that creative.



EE shockwaves have no effect whatsoever in dealing damage to tsb, not a hundred of those are gonna do jack, and if he touches tsb with his fists, he can beg tsuna for a prosthetic hashi arm


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## xenos5 (Aug 30, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> EE shockwaves have no effect whatsoever in dealing damage to tsb, not a hundred of those are gonna do jack, and if he touches tsb with his fists, he can beg tsuna for a prosthetic hashi arm



The force of an EE stomp has already broken through TSB. Juubi Madara's body was forced through his own TSB sphere. If Gai's fist stops just short of touching the TSB sphere with an EE stomp I could see the same thing happening as it would be close enough to a direct punch that the force would be on par with what forced Juubi Madz body through it.


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## uchihakil (Aug 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> The force of an EE stomp has already broken through TSB. Juubi Madara's body was forced through his own TSB sphere. If Gai's fist stops just short of touching the TSB sphere with an EE stomp I could see the same thing happening as it would be close enough to a direct punch that the force would be on par with what forced Juubi Madz body through it.



That's your own personal opinion,quad juubi dama did'nt do jack to tsb, EE shockwave aint gonna do jack to tsb, it only broke cuz madara was hit DIRECTLY and not the shockwave of the attack (+ madara mostlikely even lost control of it)

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xenos5 (Aug 30, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> That's your own personal opinion,quad juubi dama did'nt do jack to tsb, EE shockwave aint gonna do jack to tsb, it only broke cuz madara was hit DIRECTLY and not the shockwave of the attack (+ madara mostlikely even lost control of it)



The TSB sphere remained completely solid as Juubi Madara was hit. This is evidenced by it shattering from Juubi Madz being forced through it instead of it deforming as it would have if Juubi Madz just lost control of it. It maintained its density and was broken through, end of story.


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## uchihakil (Aug 30, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> The TSB sphere remained completely solid as Juubi Madara was hit. This is evidenced by it shattering from Juubi Madz being forced through it instead of it deforming as it would have if Juubi Madz just lost control of it. It maintained its density and was broken through, end of story.



As I said direct hit =/= shockwave, guy can use EE shockwave all day, it aint doing jack to tsb, neither can he physically touch it, tsb is guys worst nightmare

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xenos5 (Aug 30, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> As I said direct hit =/= shockwave, guy can use EE shockwave all day, it aint doing jack to tsb, neither can he physically touch it, tsb is guys worst nightmare



What I get from the direct hit being more powerful is that the closer an evening elephant stomp is performed to its target the more force it retains. An evening elephant stomp performed from like an inch away from someone should hold around the same amount of power as a direct punch because the distance is negligible. There is no reason for it to be massively weaker. 

Also. It was a direct hit on Juubi Madara but it wasn't a direct hit on the TSB sphere. Even after hitting Juubi Madz the fact that it could still break through the TSB sphere when most of the force should've been diffused somewhat by Juubi Madz body goes to show that a direct hit on the TSB sphere itself isn't necessary.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 30, 2016)

Seekingsoul said:


> 10. Urahara's bankai *< limbo clones *(limbo is far superior).



By what standard? Urahara's Bankai can restructure space and it has a passive AoE it can do that in.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JayDox (Aug 30, 2016)

When it comes to the HST, Bleach is the strongest hax wise

Reactions: Agree 1


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## uchihakil (Aug 31, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> By what standard? Urahara's Bankai can restructure space and it has a passive AoE it can do that in.



Because limbo can not be seen nor sensed, physical attacks don't work on it, hax does'nt work on it, and depending on the user, they are strong as fuck, freezing opponents mid air, and can use the users techniques, that's why it's haxxer

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## shade0180 (Aug 31, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> hax does'nt work on it,



Bullshit.

 Hax definitely work on it. It got sealed by Nardo. and generalizing what hax don't work on it is NLF.

It hasn't shown any immunity to hax at all in the manga. the only thing it showed is practically feats of intangibility.

the only thing you can tell on that is hax that needs to connect to it physically won't work.

that's about it, and even then if the character can affect intangibles then Limbo's ability to go intang wouldn't even matter.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## uchihakil (Aug 31, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> Hax definitely work on it. It got sealed by Nardo. and generalizing what hax don't work on it is NLF.
> 
> ...



Well we know kamui aint gonna work on it, nor most other hax in narutoverse cuz they won't connect, that's why it's OP, cuz attacks don't connect


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## Imagine (Aug 31, 2016)

Bleachverse has superior hax. The series thrives on hax characters and characters with counter hax. It's the sole reason why they don't instantly get wrecked by Nardoverse.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Boomy (Aug 31, 2016)

Didn't Obito transferred his chakra and soul to Kakashi from afterlife? I think this would work on Limbo.


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## Imagine (Aug 31, 2016)

You tell us, Narutard

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Boomy (Aug 31, 2016)

You're so mean imagine.


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## xenos5 (Aug 31, 2016)

Mahesvara said:


> Didn't Obito transferred his chakra and soul to Kakashi from afterlife? I think this would work on Limbo.



That was a poorly explained asspull that defied logic. Not seeing how it would "work" on Limbo as it wasn't really an attack.


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## Boomy (Aug 31, 2016)

He relocated something immaterial, so I thought it would work on Limbo.


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## shade0180 (Aug 31, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Well we know kamui aint gonna work on it, nor most other hax in narutoverse cuz they won't connect, that's why it's OP, cuz attacks don't connect



In the first place saying limbo is immune to Naruto hax is already bullshit.

Limbo has never faced any of the hax ability in nardo except for 1

And it worked on Limbo. that is clearly a painted picture there.

that clearly told and showed us that Limbo is susceptible to hax.

The only thing you can make a case for Limbo about hax immunity is that it has the same hax immunity as Madara.

Which basically means they aren't going to get Tsukuyomi'd by Itachi.

and only because we know that MS can counter Tsukuyomi as shown by Sauce and only because Limbo are said to be equal to Madara.

that's about it.





xenos5 said:


> That was a poorly explained asspull that defied logic. Not seeing how it would "work" on Limbo as it wasn't really an attack.



There's also no reason for it to not work on Limbo.

Unless you think Limbo is Superior to Madara himself that should never be a case.

 Madara can be affected by Kamui. We have seen that when he stole Kakashi's Eye. So there's no reason to assume Limbo cannot be hit by kamui.



uchihakil said:


> , nor most other hax in narutoverse cuz they won't connect,



Most of the hax in Naruto verse doesn't need physical contact.

Death god seal attacks the soul, Naraka path sucks the soul, Juubi husk sucks chakra, Frog song is sound based, etc.

The only real hax that need physical contact are basically Poison and The one used by Hidan.


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## xenos5 (Aug 31, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> There's also no reason for it to not work on Limbo.
> 
> Unless you think Limbo is Superior to Madara himself that should never be a case.
> 
> ...



I wasn't talking about Kamui. I was talking about the chakra transferral by Obito from the afterlife that Mahesvara mentioned.


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## Shining Force (Aug 31, 2016)

Bleach have better hax while Narutoverse's hax is simpler (e.g sealings). Though both have poorly executed hax like Izanami, Almighty etc. 
Btw I hope this thread gets locked quickly before turning into UchihaKil vs Divell argument xD .


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## Boomy (Aug 31, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> I wasn't talking about Kamui. I was talking about the chakra transferral by Obito from the afterlife that Mahesvara mentioned.


You know he did that through Kamui, right?


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## xenos5 (Aug 31, 2016)

Mahesvara said:


> You know he did that through Kamui, right?



If you meant kamui you were sort of unclear with that. I know Obito somehow had his spirit go back to the living world with Kamui but the chakra transferral was something he did after that so why even bring it up?


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## Boomy (Aug 31, 2016)

Jesus Christ...

>Kamui could teleport his own spirit, spirits are immaterial
>thus Kamui could teleport Limbo clones, which are(?) immaterial
>thus, Kamui can teleport Limbo clones


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## xenos5 (Aug 31, 2016)

Mahesvara said:


> Jesus Christ...
> 
> >Kamui could teleport his own spirit, spirits are immaterial
> >thus Kamui could teleport Limbo clones, which are(?) immaterial
> >thus, Kamui can teleport Limbo clones



I understand that, just fine. I'm not an idiot.  I'm just saying the chakra transferral was irrelevant to Obito transporting his spirit with Kamui and including that confused things.


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## Boomy (Aug 31, 2016)

By transfer I had meant his displacement from afterlife. 
Sorry for not making this clear.

Reactions: Like 1


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## uchihakil (Aug 31, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> In the first place saying limbo is immune to Naruto hax is already bullshit.
> 
> Limbo has never faced any of the hax ability in nardo except for 1
> 
> ...



- Only rinnegan users can see limbo (fact) kakashi with double MS does'nt
- only characters with rikudou senjutsu can sense limbo (fact) kakashi does'nt

So your point is moot, kamui aint working on madara, and yes limbo has more resistance than madara, because limbo can not be seen nor sensed by 99.9% of the verse for someone to even attack it, and if one can't see nor sense it, you can't do jack to it, e.g guy can hurt madara but he can't hurt limbo, kamui can warp madara but it can't warp limbo


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## uchihakil (Aug 31, 2016)

Shining Force said:


> Bleach have better hax while Narutoverse's hax is simpler (e.g sealings). Though both have poorly executed hax like Izanami, Almighty etc.
> Btw I hope this thread gets locked quickly before turning into UchihaKil vs Divell argument xD .



I'm NOT like divell, I state facts and get convinced, you did'nt hear me say narutoverse have more hax did you, just arguing on limbo being better than urahara's bankai, still not convinced with it being better


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## shade0180 (Aug 31, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Only rinnegan users can see limbo (fact) kakashi with double MS does'nt



by the time Kakashi gained Double MS Limbo clones are out of the picture what facts are you talking about. 



uchihakil said:


> only characters with rikudou senjutsu can sense limbo (fact) kakashi does'nt


What?????????????????????
kakashi was not put in a situation where he faced a Limbo clone, again where are you getting this stupid facts?



uchihakil said:


> So your point is moot, kamui aint working on madara, and yes limbo has more resistance than madara, because limbo can not be seen nor sensed by 99.9% of the verse for someone to even attack it, and if one can't see nor sense it, you can't do jack to it, e.g guy can hurt madara but he can't hurt limbo, kamui can warp madara but it can't warp limbo





Cannot be sense =/= it has immunity

you are equating two different concept here. they don't work like that.

Your argument is retarded in multiple ways.

 just an example even if a combatant can't sense his target if he has a hax that doesn't target a person but an area there's a high chance the target will get hit by the hax just by standing on that area.


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## uchihakil (Aug 31, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> by the time Kakashi gained Double MS Limbo clones are out of the picture what facts are you talking about.
> 
> 
> What?????????????????????
> ...



Can you pls stop using that meme when you are wrong and no my arguement is not retarded 



Here madara says sasuke can see it thanks to the rinnegan and we know EMS sasuke could'nt see it (that's why he was frozen, so anything besides the rinnegan can't see it)



And naruto could only sense it cuz he has rikudou senjutsu

So no kakashi can NOT see nor sense it (I know my naruto dude)


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## Ayy lmao (Aug 31, 2016)

Yeah, Limbo can only be sensed or seen if you have the Rinnegan or Rikudo's chakra

Reactions: Agree 1


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## uchihakil (Aug 31, 2016)

ayyfisk said:


> Yeah, Limbo can only be sensed or seen if you have the Rinnegan or Rikudo's chakra



Sasuke has rikudou chakra but he can only see it, naruto with rikudou senjutsu is the one that senses it, so you need either rinnegan or rikudou senjutsu to perceive it


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 31, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Sasuke has rikudou chakra but he can only see it, naruto with rikudou senjutsu is the one that senses it, so you need either rinnegan or rikudou senjutsu to perceive it



Under the OBD rule of equalisation, you only need feats of seeing intangibles to perceive it. Since it requires a connection to Rikudou Sennin who is a spirit at the time, it falls under spiritual intangibility (i.e. ghosts).

. Limbo won't work for shit any better than a Bunshin against Bleach characters.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## LazyWaka (Aug 31, 2016)

The fuck, how does Hagoromo being a spirit make Limbo clones spiritual? Everything that we've been told about them points to it being via spatial shit.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## uchihakil (Aug 31, 2016)

LazyWaka said:


> The fuck, how does Hagoromo being a spirit make Limbo clones spiritual? Everything that we've been told about them points to it being via spatial shit.



This ^^^ limbo exists in its own plane, in its own seperate dimension, not the afterlife or the shinigami realm or ghost realm, it exists on limbo realm

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 31, 2016)

LazyWaka said:


> The fuck, how does Hagoromo being a spirit make Limbo clones spiritual? Everything that we've been told about them points to it being via spatial shit.



Name other characters who have directly interacted with spirits on-panel. Name other characters .

That's not a coincidence. Madara even suspects a connection between the three of them that allows them to do so. Three guesses what connection that is. (Hint: it's spiritual)

Why in the hell would Limbo NOT be spiritual in nature?


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## Zern227 (Aug 31, 2016)

I'm pretty sure Narudo and Sauce talked to Hagaromo when they were dead, like when Kakashi met his father so I don't see your point.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Aug 31, 2016)

I think Gremmy can clear Naruto by just using his power in a slighly less stupid way.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## shade0180 (Aug 31, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> -snip-



That's not the reason why I called your argument retarded, seriously you shifting the point of your post from your original point of Limbo having Hax immunity to telling as those non-existent facts about Kakashi's ability to make a point that my argument is wrong is bullshit.



I'm going to point out what we have been talking about since I started pointing you out.

"Your original point is, Limbo has resistance to hax due to them being intangible and cannot be sense"

This is the reason I called your argument retarded which you can see on the post I quoted you on

I'll point it out again
someone that has hax Immunity =/= someone that can not be perceive.

 (The kakashi facts you are pulling out of your ass is something I'm putting into question because they don't exist, also just to make this a little bit clear what Obito gave Kakashi is his own left over rikudo chakra.)


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## uchihakil (Aug 31, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> That's not the reason why I called your argument retarded, seriously you shifting the point of your post from your original point of Limbo having Hax immunity to telling as those non-existent facts about Kakashi's ability to make a point that my argument is wrong is bullshit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And did you hear me say obito did'nt give kakashi rikudou chakra?? No, ofcourse he did, what kakashi facts am I pulling out of my ass again?? Dude, I aint forcing you to debate, so you should be more respectful, I'm not going around calling you names.

And what I said bout kakashi I backed up my claim with the manga, can you do the same instead of saying I'm pulling stuff outta my ass, cuz to me and many others, you are the one pulling stuff outta your ass.

Lastly, when you said 'hax resistant =/= not being able to be touched my next post I said 'oh well we know kamui aint gonna work on it' that means i got your point after thinking it through, nevertheless, it does'nt change the fact that it's hard to perceive it , if you want to use verse equalisation on limbo technically none other than maybe ywatch can see it cuz 

1. Via powerlevel he's the only one on naruto/sasuke's powerlevel 
2. He/she needs an eye that sees through dimensions 
3. He needs to be a planet level sensor like RSM naruto to sense it

The only thing he has going on for him is his power level, even then he has'nt shown to be on naruto/sasuke's level but he's the only character that can possibly perceive limbo in bleach


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## shade0180 (Sep 1, 2016)

you are confusing your points and my post to someone else. I never opened any verse equalization here.

We don't equalize power in the first place. what we equalize is energy.


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## uchihakil (Sep 1, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> you are confusing your points and my post to someone else. I never opened any verse equalization here.
> 
> We don't equalize power in the first place. what we equalize is energy.



I meant energy, my point all along is if one can't see nor sense limbo, his/her hax is'nt working on it, so if I say no one in bleach has rinnegan or rsm, that means its NLF, so equalising is either a character has the same energy level to madara (which no one does in bleach), or one has the same properties of rinnegan or rsm, rinnegan being able to see through dimension and rsm granting naruto planet level sensing, no bleach character meet those qualifications, the only exception is ywatchs energy level, so any other hax won't work on it


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## shade0180 (Sep 1, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> if one can't see nor sense limbo, his/her hax is'nt working on it




 and again that is not true.

there are haxes that don't target a character but an area.

being non-perceivable would not help them in those kind of hax field.



uchihakil said:


> so if I say no one in bleach has rinnegan or rsm, that means its NLF,



... that's not the reason for the NLF. seriously what the fuck are you smoking.



uchihakil said:


> so equalising is either a character has the same energy level to madara (which no one does in bleach), or one has the same properties of rinnegan or rsm, rinnegan being able to see through dimension and rsm granting naruto planet level sensing, no bleach character meet those qualifications, the only exception is ywatchs energy level, so any other hax won't work on it



I'm going to say you have no fucking clue what you are talking about at this point,


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## uchihakil (Sep 1, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> and again that is not true.
> 
> there are haxes that don't target a character but an area.
> 
> ...



*facepalm* Target an area you say (limbo is not in the REAL WORLD) so targetting any area won't help unless one can perceive it, you can only affect it if you can perceive it


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## Zef (Sep 1, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> That's not a coincidence. Madara even suspects a connection between the three of them that allows them to do so.


????

He suspects a connection between himself and Sasuke. Not himself, Sasuke, *AND* Naruto.



How does a connection "beyond blood" make you think he's referencing Naruto? Naruto isn't a Uchiha.

He specifically cites he and Sasuke both having Choku Tomoe (Eternal Mangekyō) and Sasuke's Rinnegan being a compatible replacement for his own.

So Naruto isn't in the equation as far as spiritual connections are concerned.


> Three guesses what connection that is. (Hint: it's spiritual)


It's Rikudou chakra.

If it were spiritual why didn't Sasuke see the Limbo that caught him here?



Sasuke being an Indra Transmigrant for all his life still had a spiritual "connection" to Hagoromo in the above scan. But he couldn't see Limbo then.



> Why in the hell would Limbo NOT be spiritual in nature?


If we get down to technicalities then every jutsu has spiritual influence via the nature of chakra.

But for the most part Naruto characters have always been able to see/touch spirits regardless.
Rin grabbed  Obito & Kakashi's hands in Kaguya's gravity dimension ffs.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The World (Sep 1, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> By what standard? Urahara's Bankai can restructure space and it has a passive AoE it can do that in.


they can't be seen or touched normally and have the same power as Juubi Mads

pretty broken

Kishi is a retard that gave poor showings and had Nardo and Sauce job them

only weakness they have is the time limit


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## Unlosing Ranger (Sep 1, 2016)

So it's backgrounds versus trees right?
I'd say the trees have the detail part down.


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## uchihakil (Sep 1, 2016)

The World said:


> they can't be seen or touched normally and have the same power as Juubi Mads
> 
> pretty broken
> 
> ...



Sasuke did'nt do nothing to'em, and limbo shat on naruto clones offscreen (thus why naruto's clones were found nowhere after he sent them to fight limbo while limbo surrounded team 7)


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## Tir (Sep 1, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Under the OBD rule of equalisation, you only need feats of seeing intangibles to perceive it. Since it requires a connection to Rikudou Sennin who is a spirit at the time, it falls under spiritual intangibility (i.e. ghosts).
> 
> . Limbo won't work for shit any better than a Bunshin against Bleach characters.



This is dumb. Considering that even human can fucking punch spirit in Bleach. I refer to that panel where Chad hit hollow with an electric pole. Lastly, you bring that Bleach are all about soul? 



> Why in the hell would Limbo NOT be spiritual in nature?


There is difference between soul/ spirit and limbo in Naruto though. Naruto characters can see soul and spirit while they can't even perceive Limbo. Heck, Sakura didn't even feel that her hand was being held instead she felt like she was stopped just like that.
Unless they have Rinnegan or Rikudo sage whatever, that shit can't be seen nor sense. Naturally, stronger character than Madara would ignore limbo since it will never work on them.

I don't rate Almighty that high though. Sure it allows him top pick the future. What good would it be if he couldn't even pick a future where he could win?


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## Kenpachi TZ (Sep 1, 2016)

Zef said:


> It's Rikudou chakra.
> 
> If it were spiritual why didn't Sasuke see the Limbo that caught him here?
> 
> ...



... Fuck. 

Never mind.



Zef said:


> If we get down to technicalities then every jutsu has spiritual influence via the nature of chakra.
> 
> But for the most part Naruto characters have always been able to see/touch spirits regardless.
> Rin grabbed  Obito & Kakashi's hands in Kaguya's gravity dimension ffs.



May I please have a link to that page?



Tir said:


> This is dumb. Considering that even human can fucking punch spirit in Bleach. I refer to that panel where Chad hit hollow with an electric pole. Lastly, you bring that Bleach are all about soul?



.

That's not the case for regular souls. Being able to touch "regular" souls is a specific and unique ability. Hollows have it for being able to eat them. Shinigami have it for being able to send them to SS.

"Human Ichigo" didn't because all he could do was see regular souls. He couldn't touch them.

Spiritual intangibility is irrelevant to basically the entire main cast, save maybe the Quincy or Fullbringers.



Tir said:


> I don't rate Almighty that high though. Sure it allows him top pick the future. What good would it be if he couldn't even pick a future where he could win?



This is haxx vs haxx.

He can feasibly pick a future where Koto didn't happen even without being aware of Koto (which is what makes it special). On the other hand, Koto requires 10 years to recharge with each use.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zef (Sep 1, 2016)

^






There's also things like the Edo Kage & Team 7 seeing Hagoromo, and the spirits he summoned. 



Sasuke seeing Edo Itachi's spirit leave


etc.


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## uchihakil (Sep 1, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> ... Fuck.
> 
> Never mind.
> 
> ...



Do you even know why KA is hax? It's cuz one would never know he is caught, so trying to breakout or counter it is useless when you are being controlled, that aside shisui does'nt have that cool down and I can prove he does'nt, I'll say it nevertheless

1. He's the original owner of the eye
2. He won't be feared by it if he only used it once in his life
3. Shisui is less than 20 when he died, so if for e.g he awakened MS when he was 12, and used KA, he should'nt be able to use it on the uchiha coup de etat cuz the cool down aint over
4. MS techniques have no such drawbacks to the owners


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 1, 2016)

we dont know if shisui is dead


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## uchihakil (Sep 1, 2016)

ayyfisk said:


> we dont know if shisui is dead



What?? The series is over and you still think he's alive lmfaoooo

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 2, 2016)

It was never confirmed whether he was dead or alive.

Also if he were alive he would be younger than Oonoki, who's still alive during the Boruto arc. What's so unbelievable about that?

I'm not saying he is alive, I'm just saying we don't know if he is or not.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## uchihakil (Sep 2, 2016)

ayyfisk said:


> It was never confirmed whether he was dead or alive.
> 
> Also if he were alive he would be younger than Oonoki, who's still alive during the Boruto arc. What's so unbelievable about that?
> 
> I'm not saying he is alive, I'm just saying we don't know if he is or not.



It was never confirmed?? Do you mean the shisui in naruto or another shisui in another anime? Cuz last time I checked he jumped off a cliff after giving itachi his otheer eye and killed himself, and he was alive, kishi would have told us, that's enough proof that he is dead

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 2, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> It was never confirmed?? Do you mean the shisui in naruto or another shisui in another anime? Cuz last time I checked he jumped off a cliff after giving itachi his otheer eye and killed himself, and he was alive, kishi would have told us, that's enough proof that he is dead


The anime is not canon, try again.


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## uchihakil (Sep 2, 2016)

ayyfisk said:


> The anime is not canon, try again.



*tripple face palm* shisui is alive suit yourself

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Tir (Sep 2, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> .
> 
> That's not the case for regular souls. Being able to touch "regular" souls is a specific and unique ability. Hollows have it for being able to eat them. Shinigami have it for being able to send them to SS.
> 
> ...



Doesn't change the fact that they can be touched. In Naruto, you can actually touch soul but you can't touch or even sense Limbo. Not without Rinnegan or Rikudou mambo jumbo. 

It has nothing to do with spiritual intangibility. Limbo can't be touched. Simple as that. 



Kenpachi TZ said:


> This is haxx vs haxx.
> 
> He can feasibly pick a future where Koto didn't happen even without being aware of Koto (which is what makes it special). On the other hand, Koto requires 10 years to recharge with each use.


Nah, I was just saying how stupid this ability is. What good would it do against stronger opponents? 
Btw, Koto doesn't require that long to recharge.


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 2, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> *tripple face palm* shisui is alive suit yourself


im curious, what evidence from the manga or interview or databook do we have that says he is alive? Don't use the non canon anime filler or the non canon games as a source for your claim.


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## uchihakil (Sep 2, 2016)

ayyfisk said:


> im curious, what evidence from the manga or interview or databook do we have that says he is alive? Don't use the non canon anime filler or the non canon games as a source for your claim.



Stay curious, I aint gonna waste my time with someone who thinks a character who was stated to be dead (who does'nt want his body to be found jumped off a cliff) and no signs of him being alive and above all, the manga is done, so dude stay curious till kishi makes an interview and talks bout shisui

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hardcore (Sep 2, 2016)

After reading this read it feels like the cancerdome again

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## uchihakil (Sep 2, 2016)

@ayyfisk, do you even know who shisui is? You said he should be as old (but a lil younger than ohnoki) do you know that ohnoki is as old as hiruzen, who is waay older than oro/jiraiya/tsunade, who are waay older than kakashi who is older than shisui??

Reactions: Informative 1


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## uchihakil (Sep 2, 2016)

And if you mean he's younger than ohnoki in the sense that shisui is not old enough to die from aging then you must've missed the part were he jumped off the cliff or kishi ending the manga and not showing shisui


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## Kenpachi TZ (Sep 2, 2016)

Tir said:


> Doesn't change the fact that they can be touched. In Naruto, you can actually touch soul but you can't touch or even sense Limbo. Not without Rinnegan or Rikudou mambo jumbo.
> 
> It has nothing to do with spiritual intangibility. Limbo can't be touched. Simple as that.



I've conceded that.



Tir said:


> Nah, I was just saying how stupid this ability is. What good would it do against stronger opponents?
> Btw, Koto doesn't require that long to recharge.



 You're thinking of  with his Senju DNA implant.

I won't say that it can hit above its weight as well as Koto can. But it has far more versatility which is why I favour it over Koto.


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> I've conceded that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've already explained why shisui himself does'nt have that cool down, and it was never stated that shisui himself have that cool down, what good is an eye that has 10 friggin years of cooldown by the owner, how did he become famous with it? (Cuz if it has a 10yr cool down then he only would have used it once in his life)
- if he used it once, he should'nt be able to use it on the coup de etat, because of the cool down, so why was he trying to use it eventhough he has a 10yr cooldown??

It does'nt make sense for him (the user) to have a 10year cooldown


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> how did he become famous with it?


He wasn't famous because of it.

 he was famous because he was good at using Shunshin



uchihakil said:


> if he used it once, he should'nt be able to use it on the coup de etat



Shisui had a set of eyes and we all know each eye hold different abilities. 

The one Itachi has had 10 years wait time. the one Danzo had which had a weaker hypnosis we don't have a clue if it had. but it probably didn't he was trying to control Sauce right after he had controlled Hanzo with it.


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> He wasn't famous because of it.
> 
> he was famous because he was good at using Shunshin
> 
> ...



Nothing suggests that's a weaker eye, it was never stated, danzou after using hashi dna, to speed up the cooldown, towards the end of their fight with sasuke, he was trying to use KA on sasuke, but figured it'd be better to use it on tobi, that's why he did'nt use it, so him being able to control tobi makes it a weak eye???

Itachi did'nt have the hashi dna to shorten the cooldown, and yes shisui was feared because of his sharingan, he had the strongest genjutsu (and guess what that is, KA), he was known for his genjutsu aswell as shunshin


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Nothing suggests that's a weaker eye, it was never stated, danzou after using hashi dna, to speed up the cooldown, towards the end of their fight with sasuke, he was trying to use KA on sasuke, but figured it'd be better to use it on tobi, that's why he did'nt use it, so him being able to control tobi makes it a weak eye???



You are twisting words here.

 seriously I have no clue how you can have one point then point it to another point that is totally unrelated to what I said and still continue an argument as if the new point is relevant to the old one.

Continuing on to the real point.

The point why Shisui's other eye is weak, is shown that when the target learns that they are under his control they can for the most part release themselves from the illusion which was demonstrated in the Gokage summit

while the other one the one that Itachi has given to Naruto, even with full knowledge and acknowledged that they are being controlled can't forcibly ignore the command as shown with Itachi and Kabuto who should still have a control over Edo Itachi, considering Nagato who is fully conscious was controlled by Kabuto effortlessly...



uchihakil said:


> he was known for his genjutsu aswell as shunshin



Itachi is the one that is known for his genjutsu, Shisui isn't





uchihakil said:


> he had the strongest genjutsu (and guess what that is, KA



Strike 3, The strongest Genjutsu is Infinite Tsukuyomi.


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

Kabuto says 'there's only one genjutsu strong enough to do this'

Not even itachi with tsukiyomi could rewrite edo tensei control



And here bee knows of shisui despite the fact that he was'nt even a konoha nin as the most powerful genjutsu user

And again kabuto knowing bout how OP shisui's eye is



And after danzou died, obito tried to take shisui's eye from danzou but he failed due to danzou using a jutsu to blow himself up (meaning obito wants the eye too.



I told you I argue with facts and don't pull shit outta my ass

So yes shisui is the strongest genjutsu user


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

And it was never stated that 1 eye was weaker than the other, it's a fact that both eyes are stronger when together, so shisui with KA (the orginal owner) >>> danzou with KA, (if you also want a scan for that, amma find it for you) + danzou released mifune cuz it was meaningless as Ao found out mifune was being controlled and danzou did'nt plan on fighting the kage so he released it since his secrete was already out, so no mifune did'nt breakout of it


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

I told you to stop using that meme when you are wrong, you're embarrassing yourself even further lmao


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> And after danzou died, obito tried to take shisui's eye from danzou but he failed due to danzou using a jutsu to blow himself up (meaning obito wants the eye too.




 obito wants every MS eye out there he literally have a storage of uchiha eyes,




uchihakil said:


> nd here bee knows of shisui despite the fact that he was'nt even a konoha nin as the most powerful genjutsu user
> 
> And again kabuto knowing bout how OP shisui's eye is



Because knowing people can use genjutsu means they are the strongest at it....

 oh wait, it doesn't. seriously.



uchihakil said:


> And it was never stated that 1 eye was weaker than the other



It doesn't need to be stated, If there is a showing that there are discrepancy between the eyes.

The author doesn't need to spell it out.

Use your brain sometimes it can help a lot

Seriously the author doesn't need to tell or even spell it to us which is stronger or weaker to determine if it is weaker we do that all the time in the OBD. If we didn't do that then there's no point on putting a tier or even power level to abilities we discuss here..



uchihakil said:


> Kabuto says 'there's only one genjutsu strong enough to do this'



 And Kabuto was wrong Because IT exist.



uchihakil said:


> I told you I argue with facts and don't pull shit outta my ass
> 
> So yes shisui is the strongest genjutsu user


and that page contradicted you...

One of the most powerful Eye technique.

Not the most powerful genjutsu.. or even eye genjutsu.

there's a difference between one of the most powerful and the most powerful

one of the most powerful could be 1 of the top 5, top 10, top 50 or even top 100

It didn't even say genjutsu it was limited to an Eye technique meaning if there was a genjutsu not limited to the eyes it could have a different placing.

 Seriously you keep misinterpreting the things you are trying to debate..


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> obito wants every MS eye out he literally have a storage of uchiha eyes,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Even when I gave you a scan, you still think I'm wrong? 

Obito was'nt interested in all MS (after all he knew were itachi's corpse were and he did'nt take his eye nor did he try taking sasuke's after sasuke awakened his MS, he was interested in shisui's eye due to how strong it was)

- I've debunked your claim on one of shisui's eye being weaker
- gave you a scan of were it says shisui is the strongest genjutsu user
- even if IT is better it does'nt change the fact that KA is OP in a vs match
- KA remained on top of any other genjutsu before IT (cuz the only advantage IT has is having a greater range) not that it's overall stronger 

Debating with nothing to back up your claims and tellling me the auther does'nt have to feed every info to us, when you are denying what he stated


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Even when I gave you a scan, you still think I'm wrong?



You misinterpreted the scans, that's why you are wrong



uchihakil said:


> bito was'nt interested in all MS (after all he knew were itachi's corpse were and he did'nt take his eye nor did he try taking sasuke's after sasuke awakened his MS, he was interested in shisui's eye due to how strong it was)



Itachi's corpse has no eyes it was on Sauske.

 did you miss the part where they wanted Sauce for Madara.



uchihakil said:


> I told you to stop using that meme



Why should I care what you tell people in this online forum, specially pertaining to me.

 I can spam whatever shit I want as long as I am not breaking the forum rules.


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

And BTW, it's not a KA vs IT debate, but how OP KA is (it does'nt change anything if IT is even better)


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> - I've debunked your claim on one of shisui's eye being weaker


You didn't debunk anything, there was no debunking that happened

Firstly showing a scan don't suddenly magically debunk a debate stance.

I'll show you how to debunk a statement.



uchihakil said:


> And BTW, it's not a KA vs IT debate, but how OP KA is (it does'nt change anything if IT is even better)



It does,

I'm going to interpret this in another form

there's no logical way mount Fuji is going to be taller than Mount everest just because you want to ignore the existent of mount everest in a debate.

Same situation here.

KA cannot be the strongest Genjutsu even if you don't want to open IT, because IT is part of Naruto verse.



uchihakil said:


> - gave you a scan of were it says shisui is the strongest genjutsu user



Except that's not what it said.

It say one of the strongest eye technique

not the strongest genjutsu

there's a large difference between those two sentences

seriously

lets put it in perspective

list of eye technique.

Kaguya
Hagoromo
Himura
Madara
Sauce
-Maybe Shisui

list of Genjutsu
- Infinite Tsukuyomi
- The second Darkness genjutsu
- Maybe Shisui's KA

 Is it the strongest in each Category, no.

is it one of the strongest in each category, yes.

is the claim of the manga the same as what I am saying, yes.

then are your claim that it is the strongest right or wrong?

and this is how you debunk shit.

Inb4 the ultimate genjutsu sentence.

Let me explain that shit

the sentence is the ultimate genjutsu of shisui Uchiha's MS

The most important part in that sentence is the "of Shisui Uchiha's"

Why that evaluation is limited to Shisui Uchiha,

What does that mean, It means that's the strongest Genjutsu that Shisui Uchiha achieve

Remember all that is limited to Shisui Uchiha not the Naruto verse, Not the Ninja world, Not Kaguya, but to a single person


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> You didn't debunk anything, there was no debunking that happened
> 
> Firstly showing a scan don't suddenly magically debunk a debate stance.
> 
> ...



- Obito was the one that transplanted itachi's eyes into sasuke, so no, if obito wanted MS eyes' he would've taken it and taken sasuke's MS when he went blind

Itachi and bee are also lying here 



Itachi saying KA creates the most powerful genjutsu and bee saying shisui. 'Is the strongest genjutsu user)

Well whatever, I aint debating with someone who outright denies what was stated in the manga


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 3, 2016)

Infinite Tsukiyomi wasn't known by most people before Madara casted it, and yeah I know Obito talked about it to the kages but none of them had any reason to believe he was telling the truth since the jutsu hadn't been used for centuries. If "The second Darkness genjutsu" is Hashirama's Darkness genjutsu then it's not stronger than Shisui's KA. It only blinds you, and nothing else IIRC. Plenty of ninjas don't need eyesight to fight.

In a way KA is stronger than IT, since it still works even if the caster is dead which IT doesn't IRRC

Also what eye technique or genjutsu does Hamura have?


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

That sentence has contradiction in the manga itself





ayyfisk said:


> Also what eye technique or genjutsu does Hamura have?



controlling the moon.



> It only blinds you, and nothing else IIRC. Plenty of ninjas don't need eyesight to fight.



The uchiha need there eyesight.

 Koto needs eye contact.  the one Danzo has the unnamed  genjutsu power the other eye had didn't need eye contact.


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> controlling the moon.


Since when?


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> That sentence has contradiction in the manga itself


It doesn't really


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

ayyfisk said:


> Since when?



Since the last.


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Since the last.


You talking about the moon-moving technique?


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

BTW lemme point out what you said and how I debunked what you said

> Danzou's KA is weaker than itachi's 

I countered by saying mifune never broke out of KA control, danzou released mifune cuz there was no point controlling mifune when his secrete was out and that two eyes are stronger while together (so even if danzou's control is weak, shisui with both eyes should be stronger) not that danzou even failed

> Claimed obito was gathering MS and was'nt after shisui's eye because of KA

- I countered by obito knew were itachi's corpse was and did'nt take his eyes neither did he attack sasuke and took his eyes (he was the one that did the transplant afterall, he could've killed sasuke after removing sasuke's eyes)

> You claimed KA is not the strongest genjutsu

- I countered by giving you scans, and if you wanna play that game KA broke out of ET control and IT could'nt affect edo kages 
But I know you're gonna say something else, so this is for the lurkers reading the thread actually so they see how I debunked your claims


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

ayyfisk said:


> You talking about the moon-moving technique?



 yea.


ayyfisk said:


> It doesn't really



Kind of does. Kishi like to throw around the word strongest


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

Eventhough the sharingan can see chakra thus negating the effect of darkness, he claims the uchiha can't see through the darkness *smh*


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

BTW any sensor or character with a doujutsu can fight while under the influence of the darkness genjutsu


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> > Danzou's KA is weaker than itachi's



lol........... that would give a lot of misinformation,..,,,

fix it for you  Danzo's KA is weaker than the KA Itachi was holding...

I'm not comparing KA to Itachi's eye. I am comparing both of Uchiha Shisui's eye.



uchihakil said:


> - I countered by obito knew were itachi's corpse was and did'nt take his eyes neither did he attack sasuke and took his eyes (he was the one that did the transplant afterall, he could've killed sasuke after removing sasuke's eyes)



They wanted Sauce alive.

Why would he go after Itachi's corpse.

Itachi has no eyes it was implanted on Sasuke.

Itachi's eyes are on Sasuke... why can't you understand that simple sentence.



uchihakil said:


> Eventhough the sharingan can see chakra thus negating the effect of darkness,



Darkness is built to counter the Uchiha.. Seriously This would be built even before the 1st war, they would have use it during the clan wars where Uchiha and Senju was mortal enemies considering Both Hashirama and Tobirama died before the first war happened.


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## Johnny Cash (Sep 3, 2016)

I read from VSbattles that Ichigo is moon level (possible higher) and sub-relativistic. Is this for real?


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

Johnny Cash said:


> I read from VSbattles that Ichigo is moon level (possible higher) and sub-relativistic. Is this for real?



Maybe in VS battle as far as OBD is concern it isn't.


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Darkness is built to counter the Uchiha.. Seriously This would be built even before the 1st war, they would have use it during the clan wars where Uchiha and Senju was mortal enemies considering Both Hashirama and Tobirama died before the first war happened.


Madara could fight with literately no eyes and with no problem

Madara is not a special sensory type, meaning most strong Uchihas should be able to fight in the dark


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> lol........... that would give a lot of misinformation,..,,,
> 
> fix it for you  Danzo's KA is weaker than the KA Itachi was holding...
> 
> ...



Yea what you said is danzou's version off KA, is weaker than itachi's, cuz the one with itachi is stronger than the one with danzou, it's the samething you said, and I debunked that claim

And why don't you get the fact that obito was the one who fucking IMPLANTED itachi's MS on sasuke, he was the one that made the transplant, sheesh it's like conversing with a wall

And hashi called you and told you it he used it to fight uchiha's right? Cool story bruh, already addressed this not gonna do it again


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

Johnny Cash said:


> I read from VSbattles that Ichigo is moon level (possible higher) and sub-relativistic. Is this for real?



Nope, he has no feats on that level


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Kind of does. Kishi like to throw around the word strongest




Once you're under Shisui's KA there is no breaking out of it unless the user cancels the genjutsu.

It is possible to break IT, if the user dies/ is weakened or sealed though like KA you probably can't break out of it yourself .

If we are talking about range, IT is the strongest in the series.

If we are talking about how difficult it is to break out of the genjutsu and controll, KA is the strongest, since it still works after the caster has died.


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

ayyfisk said:


> t, since it still works after the caster has died.




never mind

right Itachi killed the crow.


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

ayyfisk said:


> Once you're under Shisui's KA there is no breaking out of it unless the user cancels the genjutsu.
> 
> It is possible to break IT, if the user dies/ is weakened or sealed though like KA you probably can't break out of it yourself .
> 
> ...



Yup, exactly what I've been saying, but he made up his mind not to understand I see


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Did we have proof of this?
> 
> did the crow die after casting it on Itachi?



He meant itachi was dead, and his command still worked despite itachi been dead *smh*

Why are you trying so hard dude?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

Asking proper question. trying hard. 

If asking a question is hard for you then why are you here?

when debates are shit full of questions



> It is possible to break IT, if the user dies/ is weakened or sealed



Er that's not the reason IT was broken though.

IT had no problem working even after Kaguya was sealed..

Naruto and sauce being the trans-migrant was the reason they had been able to break it.

They didn't do it while Kaguya was there due to obvious reason nobody need to spell out.




ayyfisk said:


> Once you're under Shisui's KA there is no breaking out of it unless the user cancels the genjutsu.



another problem with KA is nobody tried to Break out of it,

The KA wasn't establish enough to say that it was impossible to break out of.

there's even implication that you can ignore it.

In the 2 time it was used.

Mifune and Itachi retained the same mindset after learning that they were hit.

Mifune who was not proficient to any jutsu was able to ask question and think before Danzo released the KA

Itachi was able to Ignore Sauce who was the real major threat to Konoha he was even shouting/saying his intention openly to Itachi and Fight Kabuto who was not even trying to destroy Konoha.



ayyfisk said:


> If we are talking about how difficult it is to break out of the genjutsu and controll, KA is the strongest, since it still works after the caster has died.



Mifune retained his usual mind set after Ao pointed it out.Seriously he was even asking Question to Danzo properly.

while Itachi had never intended or even tried to break it.


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Asking proper question. trying hard.
> 
> If asking a question is hard for you then why are you here?
> 
> when debates are shit full of questions



Cuz you're being too stubborn, not accepting stuff even while given source material, if you did, it won't be this hard

Reactions: Funny 1


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

You can believe what you want.

 Seriously putting out scan doesn't mean you made your point.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

I'm curious to know how someone breaks out of something he has no idea he was in 
Itachi can not resist KA breaking him out of KA and mifune was ofcourse gonna act natural, danzou only controlled him so he votes for him (which he did) 

But I bet you gon say something smart next


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Itachi was able to Ignore Sauce who was the real major threat to Konoha he was even shouting/saying his intention openly to Itachi and Fight Kabuto who was not even trying to destroy Konoha.




The real major threats were Kabuto and Obito, whom Itachi was after lol. Sasuke was never the major threat. By going after Kabuto, and defeating him with Sasuke, he did protect Konoha. And he didn't exactly ignore him, by talking to him he convinced Sasuke not to destroy konoha therefor not making him a threat to konoha, or at least he made Sasuke confused and seek information about Konoha from the previous hokages.

can you post the scans for Mifune under KA?


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

Seriously Mifune is the worst  measuring stick for someone to break a genjutsu

 Mifune is the leader of the Samurai and they have different ways of utilizing chakra to a Ninja



> ayyfisk said:
> 
> 
> > whom Itachi was after lol




Except Itachi's mission is to protect Konoha. and What was Sasuke trying to do,

 right.



> By going after Kabuto, and defeating him with Sasuke, he did protect Konoha.



Let me remind you what is Obito and Kabuto's goal:

it is to achieve infinite tsukuyomi, Without the knowledge of Kaguya. Obito and Kabuto is literally only a threat to Both Naruto and Bee because they only want to achieve IT which needs the 2 dead.

Let me remind you what sauce goal:

destroy Konoha


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Seriously Mifune is the worst  measuring stick for someone to break a genjutsu
> 
> Mifune is the leader of the Samurai and they have different ways of utilizing chakra to a Ninja



Lmao, not like we care if he's the worst, KA was never broken out of, and you simply can't break out of being mind controlled when one is not aware he's being controlled, again, KA overwrote ET control, not even nagato with rinnegan could breakout (that speaks volumes bout how strong KA is) deny it all you want though


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

I'm not denying anything I am saying KA has no real measuring stick to compare too and saying it is impossible to break is NLF.

I even said it is a problem for KA that no one tried to break it. 

Seriously


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> I'm not denying anything I am saying KA has no real measuring stick to compare too and saying it is impossible to break is NLF.
> 
> I even said it is a problem for KA that no one tried to break it.
> 
> Seriously



We know it it did what the rinnegan can't
-we know it affected mifune and itachi
- we know shisui was gonna use it on top tier uchiha (fugaku)
- we know danzou was gonna use it on obtio 
Meaning it can affect characters even with illusion resistance


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Let me remind you what is Obito and Kabuto's goal:
> 
> it is to achieve infinite tsukuyomi, Without the knowledge of Kaguya. Obito and Kabuto is literally only a threat to Both Naruto and Bee because they only want to achieve IT which needs the 2 dead.
> 
> ...


Sauske did not go to destroy Konoha after meeting Itachi, even though he wanted to before meeting him. So did he not protect Konoha by talking to him? Protecting Konoha doesn't mean kill anyone who tries to destroy it.

By activating IT konoha is , you know, kinda destroyed, which Itachi prevented

If some guys's goal is to kill everyone in the world or destroy the Naruto planet, which Konoha is a part of,  by preventing them from doing so, wouldn't that count as protecting Konoha? Isn't that essentially the same situation with Itachi and Kabuto/Obito?


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> We know it it did what the rinnegan can't - *Because rinnegan is not equip to counter genjutsu.. .Genjutsu was literally the weakness of the Rinnegan*
> 
> -we know it affected mifune and itachi - *and that doesn't tell us how strong it is.*
> 
> ...





ayyfisk said:


> Sauske did not go to destroy Konoha after meeting Itachi, even though he wanted to before meeting him. So did he not protect Konoha by talking to him? Protecting Konoha doesn't mean kill anyone who tries to destroy it.



He was literally about To kill the 5 Kage after the war arc.


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> He was literally about To kill the 5 Kage after the war arc.


Which Itachi knew he would do because??? And what does Sasuke wanting to kill the 5 kages after Itachi undid the ET have to do with your point that Itachi was ignoring Sasuke wanting to destroy Konoha during their fight with Kabuto and before that?


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> He was literally about To kill the 5 Kage after the war arc.



Itachi wanted to use it on EMS sasuke, itachi knew sasuke would transplant his eyes and gain EMS, and he was sure KA would work on him

Rinnegan is not weak to visual genjutsu (rinnegan can stop IT) coming from a big itachi fan (I learnt to accept itachi can't beat nagato cuz his genjutsu can't affect nagato) and even innos dad could'nt get into some ninja that pein gave mind resistance to, so yes rinnegan has visual illusion resistance


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

ayyfisk said:


> Which Itachi knew he would do because??? And what does Sasuke wanting to kill the 5 kages after Itachi undid the ET have to do with your point that Itachi was ignoring Sasuke wanting to destroy Konoha during their fight with Kabuto and before that?



 Because Itachi already know Sasuke has that intent this was literally what he said to Sauce.




Just read the whole 580 - 590 because there's many pages to post....



ayyfisk said:


> Which Itachi knew he would do because??? And what does Sasuke wanting to kill the 5 kages after Itachi undid the ET have to do with your point that Itachi was ignoring Sasuke wanting to destroy Konoha during their fight with Kabuto and before that?



To get why Itachi's movement is bullshit I am going to break down multiple shit so here are they.

KA is used to protect konoha. -lets start with this.

Obito and Kabuto are not a threat to Konoha - to begin with they don't care about konoha

Konoha could have wash their hand from this trouble no one is stopping them

now that was pointed out lets move on

Obito and Kabuto are a threat to Naruto and Bee because they want the Biju inside them

If Konoha threw away Naruto, Obito and Kabuto isn't even going to bother them. that's why them being a threat to Konoha is secondary.

Sasuke is a direct threat to konoha.

The alliance is build to defend Naruto and B not Konoha.

The Edo is used to deal with the alliance who is protecting Naruto and B again not Konoha

are you getting the picture now?

still not. The whole purpose of the war has nothing to do with being a threat to Konoha only to both B and Naruto.

Sasuke he is a threat to Konoha ever since and Itachi knows it.

He is priority number 1 to KA if Itachi was truly following that command.


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

Itachi left sasuke in naruto's hands, he knew naruto has what it takes to make him come back to konoha (which he did in the end) itachi did'nt consider sasuke a threat


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Itachi left sasuke in naruto's hands, he knew naruto has what it takes to make him come back to konoha (which he did in the end) itachi did'nt consider sasuke a threat


Let me remind you Itachi is under the command of the KA and shouldn't be moving on what he feels.

 seriously what itachi's  feelings shouldn't matter when KA is active that's what was intended to happen when it was going to be casted on Sauce.

So you are basically in a contradicting situation

where Itachi's feeling is superseding the KA  which means KA isn't absolute.

or KA was an absolute command but still let Itachi ignore the threat to Konoha.


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Let me remind you Itachi is under the command of the KA and shouldn't be on what he feels.
> 
> seriously what itachi feels shouldn't matter when KA is active that's what was intended to happen when it going to be cast on Sauce.



You never cease to amaze me guy lmfao, but I'll keep replying to your posts cuz I aint got anything better to do

- KA only broke itachi out of ET control (cuz ET control was making him fight against konoha), his normal self was not trying to attack konoha so KA does'nt need to further control him


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

So let me get this straight you are saying edo tensei broke KA's command.

And this here is another contradiction because your original claim was that Ka is something that cannot be broken only released.

Please pick you answer properly

> can it not be broken

> or was it broken

This whole shenanigan started with this bullshit



uchihakil said:


> - KA only broke itachi out of ET control (cuz ET control was making him fight against konoha), his normal self was not trying to attack konoha so KA does'nt need to further control him



 KA's command is to protect the village of Konoha...

It doesn't matter if Itachi was not trying to Attack Konoha he is programmed to protect the village. So it shouldn't just stop after breaking the Edo


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> So let me get this straight you are saying edo tensei broke KA's command.
> 
> And this here is another contradiction because your original claim was that Ka is something that cannot be broken only released.



KA boke itachi out of ET control, it did it job and itachi regained control of his body (itachi himself is not agaisnt konoha so KA's job was done) it might seem like a contradiction to you from how hard you are trying


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

Just one question how do you think this will work against sauce if it had 1 time effect

No seriously

Sauce attack Konoha - KA was used on him - A genjutsu to protect the village -

Sauce stopped attacking Konoha and KA disappears

- Sauce decide to continue his original plan. KA is basically pointless

 that's fucking genius..


Also this basically kill the notion that it works after the caster is dead.

Because the crow that had the MS was still alive during this event.


The notion that it was still working after the caster had died - is hanging due to the effect it still is running after Itachi used amaterasu on the crow after it got casted on him..


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Just one question how do you think this will work against sauce if it had 1 time effect
> 
> No seriously
> 
> ...



KA will overwrite his intention of wanting to destroy konoha, it's as simple as that


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> KA will overwrite his intention of wanting to destroy konoha, it's as simple as that



 

so let me get this straight for Itachi it is a 1 time thing

for Sauce it is a continuous effect?


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Just one question how do you think this will work against sauce if it had 1 time effect
> 
> No seriously
> 
> ...



Nope more like it affected itachi eventhough he was dead, it's really not that hard to understand


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

your point is going all over the place.


What you missed here is the command is to protect Konoha. not to break the edo tensei,

Yes the extra effect is Itachi was returned to normal doesn't mean the condition of the Command was already met.

Again the command of koto is to protect the village of Konoha, Kabuto losing control of the edo on him didn't achieve that command of the Koto..

you still didn't understand that?

Let  me remind you again the Koto's command is not to break the control of edo, not to stop Kabuto, not to stop the war, but to protect the village of Konoha.

So if Edo broke KA then that means it is breakable

and if Edo didn't broke KA and Itachi was still under KA influence all this time then that means they can Ignore KA if they already know they are under its effect because feels.


In other words KA is weaker than what you want us to believe.


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

You don't really know how it works do you, lemme give you an example, if I had KA, and I command you to place a vote on election day, you'd do everything naturally but on the day of election, you'd cast that vote. 

Do you think itachi would control every single move of sasuke? Do you think that's living


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

I think you are the one who doesn't get it.


So you are saying Itachi is allowed to ignore a blatant threat to Konoha right in front of him.

Seriously you're basically telling me that KA has the ability and capacity to think..

and the KA will have the consciousness to know when to activate and where to activate.

that's bullshit.


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 3, 2016)

see it is a plot hole, that itachi didn't outright kill Sasuke


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

whew...............


seriously





So we found a conundrum in your argument why KA is not an absolute or ultimate or what ever you want to believe the genjutsu is and you pulled the plot hole card



really.


seriously.


whew.


damn









You know what if shit doesn't work let just label it a plot hole.


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

Itachi clearly told naruto that he would let him take care of sasuke, he said he took everything in his hands and not trusting his comrades, so no, he was'nt concerned bout sasuke (I can give you a scan of that) but after knowing you, you'd still deny it lmfao


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

.... Itachi is under KA..... seriously you still doesn't understand that... Itachi should have no control over his action...



Itachi is brain washed/mind controlled by the KA which is what it does to protect Konoha.

and right there the threat to Konoha standing beside him is blatantly ignored.

has perfect control over every decision he has and yet people still think KA  is an ultimate genjutsu that is unbreakable..

and not some shit that got broken by itachi's feels and KA is basically getting hand waved as unbreakable just because they called it the ultimate genjutsu and no one has been shown to break it in series when it only appeared twice., let me repeat that.... twice...

seriously think about it,

an ultimate genjutsu

not working

getting ignored

and totally not even effective in doing what it was supposed to do

is deemed do be the strongest and unbreakable,..


and if you break it apart they will use the plot card..

how did this shit fly

 Normally what we would hand wave here is the ultimate, strongest and unbreakable. specially if the words is something that cannot be supported by the feat in the series. but not in this case. we ignored the events that happened and called it plot because them feels was used..

seriously this is dumb.....

 OBD don't run on this shit. we evaluate what the ability does.

We don't tend to ignore when the ability isn't doing its job. we do hand wave obvious low end.

but when you have nothing for the ability except for low end then it is about time to start questioning if the statement is even true for that ability or all of it is just nonsensical hype.

Seriously if no one did do this we would have Lightspeed Haku and everyone after Haku would be FTL


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> .... Itachi is under KA..... seriously you still doesn't understand that... Itachi should have no control over his action...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lmao, tbh I did'nt read all dat, cuz I got something better to do right now


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

I know, I already understand you don't like to use your brain logically.


and I know you'll bother to read this post and reply to it and tell another pointless argument that can shift the goal to another point because that's how you do your debating. how many times did we shift the topic just within the last page to this page.

 that last statement might really stop you from replying. but who cares


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

Stop me he says, you the one that was derailing the thread due to your lack of knowledge on KA, if you actually know what it does this debate won't have happened, I aint reading that cuz I lost enough brain cells listening to you
You the one that brought up
> One of shisui's eye is better than the other
> That obito was going after MS
> That shisui was known only for shuunshin
> That IT > KA

You are the one who brought all of this lmao, keep making a fool out of yourself and blame me lmfao


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> > One of shisui's eye is better than the other



that's not shifting the topic we are still talking about KA.



uchihakil said:


> > That obito was going after MS



that was you who opened that...



I only corrected you...



uchihakil said:


> > That KA was known only for shuunshin



Shisui is famous for Shunshin, Not known only for it... your claim and what I said is different.

 seriously again with misinformation..

 - my post

and you started that.

 - your post



uchihakil said:


> > That IT > KA



Again I am pointing out that KA is not the ultimate genjutsu.

Ultimate genjutsu and IT are inclusive to each other,. it's the same as talking about the highest/tallest mountain. 

you can't compare a talk about the tallest mountain without using mount Everest. that's not how changing the topic is.

You are talking about the Utimate Genjutsu and Ignoring the Ultimate genjutsu and telling us another genjutsu is the ultimate.

seriously




uchihakil said:


> You are the one who brought all of this lmao, keep making a fool out of yourself and blame me lmfao




.........


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> that's not shifting the topic we are still talking about KA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You did'nt correct me hence more derailing, and I told you why, but whatever you say man lmao


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

>You opened the topic. 
> I derailed the thread
> right

...


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## LazyWaka (Sep 3, 2016)

What exactly is being discussed right now?


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

Basically every thing that had to do with Koto Amatsuki


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Itachi is brain washed/mind controlled by the KA which is what it does to protect Konoha.
> 
> and right there the threat to Konoha standing beside him is blatantly ignored.
> 
> ...






Itachi did not ever break KA

The reason he doesn't kill or why he "ignores" Sasuke is either

A) Plot, Sasuke can't die since he's an important character

B)  Itachi did protect Konoha from Sasuke, by talking to Sasuke and making him not interested in destroying it. He did not exactly ignore Sasuke.

C) While Itachi is under KA, his mind is basically like it was while he was alive or how Edo Tensei Itachi was while not under Kabuto's control.  This  is the  reason he can have conversations with Naruto, Bee and Sasuke that have nothing do with protecting Konoha. This also explains why he isn't  immediately headed to Konoha but fights Nagato instead or why he didn't head to Konoha after defeating Nagato. This also explains why Itachi had all of his memories of his past life.



D)

Itachi ignored Sasuke, simply because he did not consider Sasuke a major threat to Konoha ( Which Itachi in fact did not, proved by him ignoring him)

E)

All Koto Amatsukami did was make whomever was trying to destroy Konoha, do the opposite, however, since Itachi always loved and wanted to protect Konoha, he returned to his normal self, since his normal self wants to protect Konoha.

 Basically anyone who wants to protect Konoha would be immune to the genjutsu Itachi created with KA.

So when Itachi set up the genjutsu in the crow, he made it so however looks at it, gets to keep their original mind and personality, but can't do ANYTHING to harm Konoha, and will also try to protect it, which Itachi did after getting genjutsued.


This is even * stated *in the manga




"This genjutsu returned me to normal", well that pretty much explains everything Itachi did while under KA , doesn't it???

So pretty much ALL your arguments are invalid

KA is stated and shown to be the strongest Uchiha Genjutsu, whether you like it or not, it IS.  Did you expect KA to make Itachi a mindless zombie only being able to say the words" protect Konoha" over and over again, and attacking anyone that tries to harm Konoha? And also knowing exactly who is a threat to Konoha? KA was not ever stated to do this.

Itachi gaining his normal personality is more believable than Itachi planning to make his beloved brother a mindless Konoha-protecting Zombie as you're implying KA should have done.


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

ayyfisk said:


> "This genjutsu returned me to normal", well that pretty much explains everything Itachi did while under KA , doesn't it???



So basically KA got broken

 good to know. you agree that KA isn't something that can't be broken.. that's what I have been saying all along,


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> So basically KA got broken
> 
> good to know. you agree that KA isn't something that can't be broken.. that's what I have been saying all along,


So basically you have no arguments and are left to just ignoring what it's stated to do in the manga?
good to know. You agree, Itachi did not break KA.. thats' what I have been saying all along


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## LazyWaka (Sep 3, 2016)

Wait wait... are people actually suggesting that KA is stronger than IT?


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## Ayy lmao (Sep 3, 2016)

Not me


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

LazyWaka said:


> Wait wait... are people actually suggesting that KA is stronger than IT?


Someone actually did.





ayyfisk said:


> So basically you have no arguments and are left to just ignoring what it's stated to do in the manga? Good to know. You agree, Itachi did not break KA.. thats' what I have been saying all along



there are two thing I was arguing about Koto, there was no proof that it cannot be broken or Itachi can ignore KA.

It doesn't matter who or what or how it was broken what matters is it proved that there was a contradiction with the statement given in the manga and the showing of the ability that was presented in the manga.

Basically if Koto never took hold off Itachi (He returned to normal) then that means Edo control simultaneously broke with Koto. If Koto remained with Itachi then he blatantly Ignored Koto through out the Kabuto fight.



you can't have both at the same time. that's why I ask if it was broken or not.. in an earlier post. it is a situational position, and using plot as an excuse is bullshit.

Seriously Itachi breaking the Koto has never been my point of argument.

there's one post I miss represented that.

most of my post suggest that Koto was ignored by Itachi, or was broken at some point.


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## uchihakil (Sep 3, 2016)

LazyWaka said:


> Wait wait... are people actually suggesting that KA is stronger than IT?



Mr. Derail over there was putting words in our mouth, nobody said KA>IT we just pointed out that shisui was the strongest genjutsu user (as stated in the manga) and KA is broken


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## shade0180 (Sep 3, 2016)

except I wasn't.





> - I countered by giving you scans, and if you wanna play that game KA broke out of ET control and IT could'nt affect edo kages
> But I know you're gonna say something else, so this is for the lurkers reading the thread actually so they see how I debunked your claims


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## LazyWaka (Sep 3, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Mr. Derail over there was putting words in our mouth, nobody said KA>IT we just pointed out that shisui was the strongest genjutsu user (as stated in the manga) and KA is broken



Looked more like you started it. Either way, this has gotten massively off topic

Locking.


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