# Aokiji and Jozu vs Kizaru and Doflamingo



## Luke (Jul 18, 2014)

Location: Marineford 
Intel: Full. 
Mindset: IC. 
Restrictions: None. 

Which team takes it?


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## Urouge (Jul 18, 2014)

Hmm tough one but I'm going with team 1 because of jozu.


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## Extravlad (Jul 18, 2014)

Aokiji and Jozu.
Doflamingo the weak link because he is not toptier unlike the 3 others.


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## Suit (Jul 18, 2014)

Aokiji and Kizaru are essentially even matched with an edge to Aokiji, and Jozu would probably be a bit stronger than Doflamingo.

Either way though, it's most likely pushing extreme diff.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 18, 2014)

I'm giving it to Team Aokiji.


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## Firo (Jul 18, 2014)

Im still wondering how Doffy's  strings would effect Jozu's diamond form. Cutting wise obviously.
Anyway, I'm going to give it to Aokiji and Jozu.


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## 2Broken (Jul 18, 2014)

Aokiji and Kizaru could fight for probably damn near a week before we got a winner and the winner would probably be half dead. That means the match will depend on their teammates. 

Going by that I have got to give it to Kizaru and Doflamingo here as I think Doflamingo > Jozu and that Doflamingo has really good team abilities while Jozu has none.


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## Amol (Jul 18, 2014)

Extreme diff either way.
Favours Team Aokiji more though.


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## barreltheif (Jul 18, 2014)

The admirals stalemate for hours or days. Jozu probably loses to Doflamingo, despite having the advantage of full intel.


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## Bohemian Knight (Jul 18, 2014)

Kuzan and Jozu take it. Doffy is the weakest link. The admirals could be at it for up to 10 days, but Doffy will fall and Jozu will help end it well before it ever comes to that.


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## J★J♥ (Jul 18, 2014)

Last time I checked Jozu was used as chair by Doflamingo.


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## 2Broken (Jul 18, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Last time I checked Jozu was used as chair by Doflamingo.



The majority thinks Jozu > Doflamingo. 

I will never understand why.....


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## Datassassin (Jul 18, 2014)

Team 2 since as far as I'm concerned Doflamingo > Jozu, and the difference between Aokiji and Kizaru should be negligible. Their bout would be at an impasse until Doflamingo assists Kizaru, though as it was pointed out, with the nature of Doflamingo's abilities he could theoretically assist while engaging Jozu.


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## barreltheif (Jul 18, 2014)

2Broken said:


> The majority thinks Jozu > Doflamingo.
> 
> I will never understand why.....




It has to do with their cognitive faculties.


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## Lawliet (Jul 18, 2014)

Kizaru and Doflamingo got this.


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## tanman (Jul 18, 2014)

Scenario 1: Doflamingo defeats or stalemates Jozu. Aokiji defeats or stalemates Kizaru.
*Probably results in a Doflamingo + Kizaru victory.*

Scenario 2: Aokiji defeats Doflamingo. Kizaru defeat Jozu.  Diamond skin would probably have a special reaction to light. I suspect it would be a negative reaction (diamond skin holding up well). This means that Kizaru may end up defeating Jozu with more difficulty than it takes Aokiji to defeat Doflamingo. *Probably results in a Aokiji + Jozu victory.*


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## blueframe01 (Jul 18, 2014)

Jozu > Dofla. Based on hype & feats against admirals Jozu fared so much better.
That matchup would be the deciding factor since the Colored duo would be dead equals.


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## Lawliet (Jul 18, 2014)

tanman said:


> Scenario 1: Doflamingo defeats or stalemates Jozu. Aokiji defeats or stalemates Kizaru.
> *Probably results in a Doflamingo + Kizaru victory.*
> 
> Scenario 2: Aokiji defeats Doflamingo. Kizaru defeat Jozu.  Diamond skin would probably have a special reaction to light. I suspect it would be a negative reaction (diamond skin holding up well). This means that Kizaru may end up defeating Jozu with more difficulty than it takes Aokiji to defeat Doflamingo. *Probably results in a Aokiji + Jozu victory.*




Shouldn't Ice reflect Kizaru's lights too? Just going with your logic here.

Cuz I honestly think Kizaru is Jozu's worst match up. Jozu is supposed to be a tank when Kizaru's lasers explode. You don't tank explosions. Jozu dies against Kizaru horribly.


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## Dunno (Jul 18, 2014)

Jozu < Dofla. Based on hype & feats against admirals Doflamingo fared so much better.
That matchup would be the deciding factor since the Colored duo would be dead equals.


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## Ruse (Jul 18, 2014)

Give this to Kizaru and Doflamingo
Doffy's haxx would be deadly in team match up


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## tanman (Jul 18, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Shouldn't Ice reflect Kizaru's lights too? Just going with your logic here.
> 
> Cuz I honestly think Kizaru is Jozu's worst match up. Jozu is supposed to be a tank when Kizaru's lasers explode. You don't tank explosions. Jozu dies against Kizaru horribly.



As I noted, I am by no means sure. 
You may be right. There may be an advantage in the opposite direction guaranteeing a Doflamingo/Kizaru victory.


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## Lawliet (Jul 18, 2014)

Doflamingo paralyzes, Kizaru head shots. GG world, gg.


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## J★J♥ (Jul 19, 2014)

2Broken said:


> The majority thinks Jozu > Doflamingo.
> 
> I will never understand why.....



Sheep mentality.


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## Extravlad (Jul 19, 2014)

> I will never understand why.....


Because Dofla is a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) who run away when Aokiji shows up, unlike Jozu the guy who had WB's trust to fight and handle Kuzan.

Dofla = strongest high tier.
Jozu = toptier.


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## Kings Disposition (Jul 19, 2014)

blueframe01 said:


> Jozu > Dofla. Based on hype & feats against admirals Jozu fared so much better.
> That matchup would be the deciding factor since the Colored duo would be dead equals.


Agreed.



Dunno said:


> Jozu < Dofla. Based on hype & feats against admirals Doflamingo fared so much better.
> That matchup would be the deciding factor since the Colored duo would be dead equals.


Because Doflamingo is the one who:
1) Actually landed a hit on an Admiral.
2) Fought an Admiral for an extended period of time.

......Right?


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## barreltheif (Jul 19, 2014)

OPBD, the only place where getting low-diffed by someone is more impressive than countering their attack and choosing not to continue fighting them.

Jozu only landed a hit on Aokiji while Aokiji was facing the opposite direction and fighting WB. Anyone else could have landed a hit on Aokiji in that situation.


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## Orca (Jul 19, 2014)

I'll give this to team  Aokiji/Jozu. As it stands, Jozu seems stronger than Doffy. Aokiji vs Kizaru could go either way or if I had to pick a winner then it'll be kuzan since he was almost equal to Akainu. And Akainu is the strongest admiral.


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## 2Broken (Jul 19, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Sheep mentality.



 Who is the shepard?


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## trance (Jul 19, 2014)

IMO..

Kuzan >= Borsalino
Jozu >= Doffy

Team one wins.


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## tanman (Jul 19, 2014)

blueframe01 said:


> Jozu > Dofla. Based on hype & feats against admirals Jozu fared so much better.



I disagree. Against the admirals, the only thing Jozu has over Doflamingo is getting a solid hit on Aokiji. That doesn't seem like "so much better." On the other hand, Doflamingo defended himself against not one, but two admirals, and had feats on an equivalent scale, never mind feats indicating direct superiority over Jozu. 

He hasn't taken the offense, but can you recall a time when a major villain was put in a loosing fight before Luffy defeated them? Not once has that happened. Considering how many more feats Doflamingo has and how overwhelmingly similar or superior Doflamingo's feats are when compared to Jozu's, *Doflamingo has better claim to benefit of the doubt*.


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## Extravlad (Jul 19, 2014)

> the only thing Jozu has over Doflamingo is getting a solid hit on Aokiji.v


Jozu has WB's trust to fight someone like Kuzan without any sort of help.
Dofla shits in his pants everytime in front of Aokiji.
Also the fact that Oda had to use distraction to make Jozu lose his fight just show how strong he is.


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## TheWiggian (Jul 19, 2014)

Aokiji and Jozu guna win this, Jozu can handle Kizaru in difficult moments while i doubt DD could do the same against a serious Kuzan.  Team 1 very high diff


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## Kings Disposition (Jul 19, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> Jozu only landed a hit on Aokiji while Aokiji was facing the opposite direction and fighting WB. Anyone else could have landed a hit on Aokiji in that situation.


How or why is irrelevant. What's important about point 1) is that he actually made contact with a C3's body (a feat that only other Top Tiers have done).


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## barreltheif (Jul 19, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> How or why is irrelevant. What's important about point 1) is that he actually made contact with a C3's body (a feat that only other Top Tiers have done).




Obviously, the circumstances are relevant. If Curiel had hit Aokiji from behind while Aokiji was fighting WB, that wouldn't make Curiel top tier.


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## Orca (Jul 19, 2014)

Curiel can't hit aokiji no matter the circumstances.


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## barreltheif (Jul 19, 2014)

Why wouldn't Curiel be able to hit Aokiji when he's asleep or fighting the WSM with his back turned? Do you think he doesn't have CoA? If so then you can just change the example to someone weak who has CoA.


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## tanman (Jul 19, 2014)

CoA isn't always active and nobody has perfect awareness, so anyone with CoA can hit *any* logia.
Technically speaking.


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## Kings Disposition (Jul 19, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> Obviously, the circumstances are relevant. If Curiel had hit Aokiji from behind while Aokiji was fighting WB, that wouldn't make Curiel top tier.


Aokiji being blindsided means nothing to the point I'm making. He was up against the WSM which means his Haki defenses were up on max, yet Jozu was still able to make contact with him regardless of that (which is again, something that only Top Tiers have been able to accomplish).

Also, that one feat doesn't automatically make him a Top Tier. It's that, culminated with other factors that suggest it. Nothing suggests that Curiel would've been able to make that same hit because he lacks the feats/portrayal so giving him that benefit of doubt is baseless.



tanman said:


> CoA isn't always active and nobody has perfect awareness, so anyone with CoA can hit *any* logia.
> Technically speaking.


What are you insinuating? That Aokiji, who was standing directly in front of the World's Strongest Man, didn't have CoA active?


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## Orca (Jul 19, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> Why wouldn't Curiel be able to hit Aokiji when he's asleep or fighting the WSM with his back turned? Do you think he doesn't have CoA? If so then you can just change the example to someone weak who has CoA.



Marco wasn't able to hit an unexpecting Akainu. Meaning that they can't hit them with 100% success. Someone like curiel who is a lot weaker shouldn't be able hit Aokiji who was fighting WB. Though I shouldn't have said "no matter the circumstances as the logias indeed do not have CoA/Intang on all the time. Though that wasn't the case against Kiji.


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## Kaiser (Jul 19, 2014)

Curiel was fighting Kizaru in the war. He likely has good COA


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## tanman (Jul 19, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> What are you insinuating? That Aokiji, who was standing directly in front of the World's Strongest Man, didn't have CoA active?



I didn't insinuate that at all.
But I should probably remind you that most Haki users don't apply CoA to their entire body no matter how challenging their fight may be. It is an exhaustible ability after all. 





But you should recall that Oda has never actually indicated that one of CoA's applications is to nullify the ability of CoA users to make logias tangible. In fact, the only case of something like that in the actual manga was Akainu appearing unaffected by Vista's slash. He clearly noted that Vista was using Haki, and it seemed to be somewhat upsetting to him so we have the following options:

A) CoA can be used to nullify the ability of CoA users to make logias tangible and this is the one solid piece of evidence that I can recall of that.

B) Logias can repair from what would otherwise be lethal attacks even when CoA is used.

C) Akainu has some technique which permits him to do this. For example, he could be capable of moving his real body away from what appears to be his real body.

I tend to favor B), or possibly C).


The point being that, in my opinion, if Aokiji was utilizing his best CoA available to him to protect himself from threats from behind (for whatever reason) AND that CoA was sufficient to protect himself from Jozu, it would have simply acted as an armor ensuring he didn't feel any pain. So, I personally believe that when Aokiji avoided Whitebeard's attack, it was because of skill with his logia, not CoA. So it's entirely possible that he wasn't actively using CoA when standing in front of Whitebeard, but instead emphasizing CoO. That wasn't the original insinuation, but it's a point worth making now.


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## barreltheif (Jul 19, 2014)

You guys are getting way too hung up on the details and the example of Curiel. The point is that some people are seriously claiming that Jozu's feat of hitting Aokiji while his back was turned and he was fighting WB makes Jozu look better than freaking *Doflamingo.* As if Doflamingo wouldn't be able to hit Aokiji while he facing the other direction and fighting WB.


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## Kings Disposition (Jul 19, 2014)

tanman said:


> I didn't insinuate that at all.


You specifically stated "CoA isn't always active". Why else would you say that in this discussion if not to imply that Aokiji didn't have his CoA up?



tanman said:


> But I should probably remind you that most Haki users don't apply CoA to their entire body no matter how challenging their fight may be. It is an exhaustible ability after all.


Exhaustible? I'm pretty sure the guy who fought Akainu for 10 days straight is capable of keeping up a CoA guard around his whole body during the brief moment he's in front of someone that creates AOE attacks on a massive scale.



tanman said:


> The point being that, in my opinion, if Aokiji was utilizing his best CoA available to him to protect himself from threats from behind (for whatever reason) AND that CoA was sufficient to protect himself from Jozu, it would have simply acted as an armor ensuring he didn't feel any pain. *So, I personally believe that when Aokiji avoided Whitebeard's attack, it was because of skill with his logia, not CoA. So it's entirely possible that he wasn't actively using CoA when standing in front of Whitebeard, but instead emphasizing CoO.* That wasn't the original insinuation, but it's a point worth making now.


Except that Aokiji didn't even avoid the attack. Whitebeard stabbed him with Haki clean in his torso, yet Aokiji  seemed mostly unfazed by it and immediately launched a counter attack. The most plausible explanation for this is that Aokiji kept a sufficient CoA guard up. 



barreltheif said:


> You guys are getting way too hung up on the details and the example of Curiel. The point is that some people are seriously claiming that Jozu's feat of hitting Aokiji while his back was turned and he was fighting WB makes Jozu look better than freaking Doflamingo. As if Doflamingo wouldn't be able to hit Aokiji while he facing the other direction and fighting WB.


You're still missing the point.

Whether Aokiji was aware of his presence or not doesn't matter because *Aokiji still kept a potent CoA guard up* (considering that he was literally standing in front a guy that makes gigantic quakes for a living + just defended against an Haki-imbued attack that should've left a hole in his chest) and *Jozu successfully landed an attack on him despite of that*. And again, it's this alongside other factors that suggest that he's above DD.


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## barreltheif (Jul 19, 2014)

Now you're just not making sense. Aokiji might've been using CoA against WB, but there's no reason to think that he was hardening parts of his body that were facing away from WB. But even if for some reason he was covering his whole body in CoA, this wouldn't make it harder for Jozu to hit him. It would just reduce the damage.

I think the problem is that you don't understand what CoA does. CoA makes your body harder, increasing the power of your attacks, reducing the damage you take, and allowing you to hit a DF user's "real body". It doesn't make it more difficult for your opponent to hit you. When a Logia uses CoA, it doesn't make their body more fluidlike. If anything, it makes their body harder and more solid. When Luffy uses CoA, it doesn't make him more rubbery.


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## Canute87 (Jul 19, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> Whether Aokiji was aware of his presence or not doesn't matter because *Aokiji still kept a potent CoA guard up* (considering that he was literally standing in front a guy that makes gigantic quakes for a living + just defended against an Haki-imbued attack that should've left a hole in his chest) and *Jozu successfully landed an attack on him despite of that*. And again, it's this alongside other factors that suggest that he's above DD.



People might believe in this full body COA guard too much to think it's such a great convenient technique to use at all times.


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## 2Broken (Jul 19, 2014)

Kings Disposition;5126189
Whether Aokiji was aware of his presence or not doesn't matter because [B said:
			
		

> Aokiji still kept a potent CoA guard up[/B] (considering that he was literally standing in front a guy that makes gigantic quakes for a living + just defended against an Haki-imbued attack that should've left a hole in his chest) and *Jozu successfully landed an attack on him despite of that*. And again, it's this alongside other factors that suggest that he's above DD.



Wait how can you assume that Aokiji was using his strongest CoA all over his body? Keeping CoA up obviously takes effort otherwise everyone would be walking around in Vergo mode all the time. Aokiji was right in front of Whitebeard and seeing that CoA and logia abilities can be activated on a moments notice why would he not just activate one of or both abilities right before receiving an attack. 

Your assumption is not really supported by anything and even if it was correct it wouldn't mean Jozu > Doflamingo. When it comes down to raw feats Doflamingo has shown superior combat ability and I don't know of any other factors that could be used to say put Jozu over Doflamingo other than he fought an admiral and that argument is extremely weak and flawed.


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## tanman (Jul 20, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> You specifically stated "CoA isn't always active". Why else would you say that in this discussion if not to imply that Aokiji didn't have his CoA up?



In response to the Curiel v. Aokiji hypothetical.



Kings Disposition said:


> Exhaustible? I'm pretty sure the guy who fought Akainu for 10 days straight is capable of keeping up a CoA guard around his whole body during the brief moment he's in front of someone that creates AOE attacks on a massive scale.



Sure. But why would he need or want to?
Exhaustible wasn't the operative word there. It simply served to illustrate the in-character reasoning.




Kings Disposition said:


> Except that Aokiji didn't even avoid the attack. Whitebeard stabbed him with Haki clean in his torso, yet Aokiji  seemed mostly unfazed by it and immediately launched a counter attack. The most plausible explanation for this is that Aokiji kept a sufficient CoA guard up.



Please reread my second post and reexamine the scene between Whitebeard and Aokiji. It doesn't appear to be case of successful CoA blocking. Based on what we know of CoA, such a clash would result in Whitebeard's attack connecting with _something_, be it a protective armor of CoA or Aokiji's real body. Instead, he appears to have simply moved around the attack, hence me saying this is an example of high level logia skill rather than CoA blocking.

I think you might have read my post too fast or something.
Because you aren't understanding my claim.


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## Typhon (Jul 20, 2014)

Kizaru and Doflamingo take it. I don't think people understand just how amazing a support Doflamingo would be for this match. He is bringing more to this table then Jozu could ever hope to accomplish. And to top it all off, what's stopping Doflamingo from using parasite and allowing Kizaru to deal a heavy blow? 

Even if for some stupid reason Doflamingo just decided to fight Jozu. It's not like Jozu has anything that even allows him to touch doflamingo. What's he gonna do? Chuck rocks at him?


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## trance (Jul 20, 2014)

Typhon said:


> Kizaru and Doflamingo take it. I don't think people understand just how amazing a support Doflamingo would be for this match. He is bringing more to this table then Jozu could ever hope to accomplish. *And to top it all off, what's stopping Doflamingo from using parasite and allowing Kizaru to deal a heavy blow*?
> 
> Even if for some stupid reason Doflamingo just decided to fight Jozu. It's not like Jozu has anything that even allows him to touch doflamingo. What's he gonna do? Chuck rocks at him?



What's actually allowing Doflamingo to land "Parasite" on Kuzan?


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## Kings Disposition (Jul 20, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> Now you're just not making sense. Aokiji might've been using CoA against WB, but there's no reason to think that he was hardening parts of his body that were facing away from WB. But even if for some reason he was covering his whole body in CoA, this wouldn't make it harder for Jozu to hit him. It would just reduce the damage.


"Might?" He's standing directly in front of the World's Strongest Man and your telling me that he "might" have been enhancing defenses? 

Also, go look at Vergo's full-body Haki and you can clearly see that his entire upper body (front, side, and back) was covered with Haki despite the fact that his opponent was directly in front of him. 



barreltheif said:


> I think the problem is that you don't understand what CoA does. CoA makes your body harder, increasing the power of your attacks, reducing the damage you take, and allowing you to hit a DF user's "real body". It doesn't make it more difficult for your opponent to hit you. When a Logia uses CoA, it doesn't make their body more fluidlike. If anything, it makes their body harder and more solid. When Luffy uses CoA, it doesn't make him more rubbery.


Ok quote where I stated that Haki makes your body more "fluid" or that it would Luffy more "rubbery" (I never implied any of that and have no idea where your even getting these idea's from).

And just as you said, Haki allows one to hit the "real body" of a Logia user. Yet WB failed to hit Aokiji even though he stabbed Aokiji right in the chest with a Haki imbued attack. The best explanation for this is that Aokiji had a CoA guard up (Rayleigh also explained that it acts as a suit of armor) and successfully defended against that attack (which meant that WB failed to hit the real body at that moment).


tanman said:


> Sure. But why would he need or want to?


Probably because he’s in front of someone that’s capable of gigantic AoE attacks on a massive scale?



tanman said:


> Please reread my second post and reexamine the scene between Whitebeard and Aokiji. It doesn't appear to be case of successful CoA blocking. Based on what we know of CoA, such a clash would result in Whitebeard's attack connecting with _something_, be it a protective armor of CoA or Aokiji's real body. Instead, he appears to have simply moved around the attack, hence me saying this is an example of high level logia skill rather than CoA blocking.
> 
> I think you might have read my post too fast or something.
> Because you aren't understanding my claim.


WB did connect with something. It was Aokiji's chest made of ice. 

He's a solid Logia. Nothing suggests that he's capable of doing what you just described here. If he was smoke/gas/anything that can freely move in any direction without restriction, then what you're saying here would make more sense.


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## Shanks (Jul 20, 2014)

Going with Dofla and Kizaru, simply because I believe Admirals are equal and Dofla is stronger than Jozu overall.


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## Kings Disposition (Jul 20, 2014)

2Broken said:


> Wait how can you assume that Aokiji was using his strongest CoA all over his body? Keeping CoA up obviously takes effort otherwise everyone would be walking around in Vergo mode all the time. Aokiji was right in front of Whitebeard and seeing that CoA and logia abilities can be activated on a moments notice why would he not just activate one of or both abilities right before receiving an attack.


He was literally standing infront of Whitebeard....the guy that's capable of shattering every fiber of your being with a simple punch. A better question would be why _wouldn't_ he have his best full-body Haki up when engaging the WSM that close.

Now I'm not saying that he can keep it virtually forever (just for when he was infront of Whitebeard), but I don't think its as taxing to him as some of you are making it out to be (considering he fought the likes of Akainu for 10 days straight). Even if he could keep it up forever, it wouldn't mean that he's completely invulnerable to every single attack so it really wouldn't be that OP either.



2Broken said:


> Your assumption is not really supported by anything and even if it was correct it wouldn't mean Jozu > Doflamingo. When it comes down to raw feats Doflamingo has shown superior combat ability and I don't know of any other factors that could be used to say put Jozu over Doflamingo other than he fought an admiral and that argument is extremely weak and flawed.


Ugh.....I've already said this twice. Landing an attack on a C3 alone doesn't solidify that he's a Top Tier.....

*It's that alongside other factors that suggest it. To name a few, Jozu: *
>Landed an actual hit on the C3 (which is a feat that only *Top Tiers* have been able to accomplish).

>In his ability introduction, he was portrayed directly parallel with Marco (another *Top Tier* but this probably means nothing to you since you don't consider Marco a Top Tier, despite his feats + portrayal + hype, for whatever reason).

>Blocked a gigantic slash without so much of scratch from The World’s Strongest Swordsman (oh look at that, another *Top Tier*).

>Has displayed one of the best strength feats in the entire manga by throwing an iceberg _larger than the size of 7 giants combined_. (The iceberg could have easily killed a significant portion of the Marine force and another *Top Tier was forced to act* in order to prevent that from happening).

>Was trusted by Whitebeard to deal with a C3 and actually fought with said C3 for a significant period  of time (the *Top Tier he was up against wasn't able to land a solid hit in that entire time frame* and needed extraneous factors in order to finally land one).

---------------------------------

*What has Doflamingo done to suggest that he's a Top Tier fighter or above Jozu?*

"Doflamingo beat a M3 level fighter with hax!"
>Cool. Ceasar Clown beat a M3 fighter with hax too. Does that make him a Top Tier now?

“Doflamingo sliced off the leg of someone as big as Oars. Jr!”
>Nice. Moria stabbed him with a gigantic shadow spear and Kuma practically nuked him. Are they Top Tiers now too? 

Also, Oars Jr is confirmed to be roughly the size of two giants. Jozu lifted up an iceberg ([/I]more than triple the size of Oar’s Jr.’s entire body[/I]) like it was a damn chair. If one of the biggest attacks shown by DD was only able to slice off Oars Jr's leg, what's he going to when an object of that maginitude is coming his way?

“Doflamingo sliced up a meteor!”
>No, he sliced up a decent portion of the meteor. The rest was handled by two other people (a fellow Shichibukai and an Admiral). The meteor still pales in comparison to the size of that iceberg.

"Doflamingo blocked relatively strong attacks from M3 level fighters!"
>Great. But Jozu has accomplished something even more impressive by blocking an attack (meant for the World’s Strongest Man) from a Top Tier.

"Doflamingo went toe to toe with an Admiral for a significant period of time!"
-Wait nvm, that was Jozu. DD has never shown this feat. As a matter of fact, he was up against that very same Admiral (who was nonchalant in that encounter) and was instantly + effortlessly frozen by him with a ranged attack. Yet against Jozu, Aokiji wasn't able to land a single hit during the entire time frame they were fighting and needed extraneous favors in order to do so.

“But but but.....Doflamingo had his back turned!”
>Doesn't matter. Facing him or not, there's nothing DD could've done to avoid that attack. He couldn't even move his hand fast enough to finish off Smoker despite being extremely close to him. 

"But but but....he broke free!"
>Well that's great. Except that it took him a few seconds and during that time, Aokiji could've easily killed/crippled him if he wanted. And what was stopping him from using that ranged freezing attack again right afterwards? If Aokiji could've disposed of Jozu that fast with his abilities, he would've but clearly he wasn’t able to.

"Doflamingo immobilized Jozu during the war!"
>That's impressive. But we see Jozu just fine later in the war which suggests that either A) Doflamingo let him ago (which is possible but doubtful) or B) Jozu broke free somehow (which might be possible considering his level of Haki). Even if DD immobilized Jozu in a fight, what would he follow it up with? Overheat…the attack that a fatigued Law was able to stop?...Yea ok.

DD is obviously a formidable fighter and he’s most likely the strongest High-Tier in the series as someone pointed out earlier. But he hasn’t really shown much of anything that suggests he’s a Top Tier fighter or even above Jozu. If you've got reasons for why DD is a Top Tier, I'm all ears. But do so while also addressing these points.


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## trance (Jul 20, 2014)

> WB did connect with something. It was Aokiji's chest made of ice.
> 
> He's a solid Logia. Nothing suggests that he's capable of doing what you just described here. If he was smoke/gas/anything that can freely move in any direction without resriction, then what you're saying here would make more sense.



If it wasn't extremely advanced Logia control, then what was it?


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## Kings Disposition (Jul 20, 2014)

^A sufficient CoA guard that prevented Whitebeard from making contact with his "real body".

Similar to what happened with Whiebeard vs Kizaru and Marco + Vista vs Akainu.


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## 2Broken (Jul 20, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> He was literally standing infront of Whitebeard....the guy that's capable of shattering every fiber of your being with a simple punch. A better question would be why _wouldn't_ he have his best full-body Haki up when engaging the WSM that close.



No it would not be a better question because you are the one making that claim and I am claiming nothing. All I did was explain why it was unecessary and a waste of energy for him to be in Vergo mode. For your claim to have credibility you have to show why he would armor up like that despite it being completely unnecessary and he was fighting the WSM is not a valid argument. Whitebeard and Aokiji are on the same level and Aokiji can react to the man without trouble so the argument is extremely weak.



Kings Disposition said:


> Now I'm not saying that he can keep it virtually forever (just for when he was infront of Whitebeard), but I don't think its as taxing to him as some of you are making it out to be (considering he fought the likes of Akainu for 10 days straight).* Even if he could keep it up forever, it wouldn't mean that he's completely invulnerable to every single attack so it really wouldn't be that OP either.*



But it is unecessary for him to do that, so you need more evidence than you think he should have to support your argument. ^Bolded; that is true so why bother doing it instead of defending against attacks as they come?



Kings Disposition said:


> Ugh.....I've already said this twice. Landing an attack on a C3 alone doesn't solidify that he's a Top Tier.....







Kings Disposition said:


> *It's that alongside other factors that suggest it. To name a few, Jozu: *



This should be good.



Kings Disposition said:


> >Landed an actual hit on the C3 (which is a feat that only *Top Tiers* have been able to accomplish).



This is what we are dicussing  it isn't another factor. Plus if you define top tier as anyone who can make contact with the C3 than of course only top tiers have done it. Do you see the circular reasoning?



Kings Disposition said:


> >In his ability introduction, he was portrayed directly parallel with Marco (another *Top Tier* but this probably means nothing to you since you don't consider Marco a Top Tier, despite his feats + portrayal + hype, for whatever reason).



Yeah I don't put Marco in the same catergory as Akainu, Whitebeard, Shanks and other character who are far above him in combat ability. Even if he was top tier though that doesn't make Jozu top tier just becasue they are both the elite commanders.



Kings Disposition said:


> >Blocked a gigantic slash without so much of scratch from The World’s Strongest Swordsman (oh look at that, another *Top Tier*).



 Really??? He turned his body in to diamond the hardest natural material on earth and Mihawk didn't even know he would block it. Remember cutting material is not just about strength; reread Zoro vs. Daz Bones if you forget what I mean. Jozu does not get top tier for blocking that slash unless Buggy gets top tier for surving a direct slash from Mihawk.



Kings Disposition said:


> >Has displayed one of the best strength feats in the entire manga by throwing an iceberg _larger than the size of 7 giants combined_. (The iceberg could have easily killed a significant portion of the Marine force and another *Top Tier was forced to act* in order to prevent that from happening).



This is a good feat for Jozu and it definitely shows his great strength,  but does it put him in the same league as his captain who can wreck the entire island in a single punch? The answer is cleary no.



Kings Disposition said:


> >Was trusted by Whitebeard to deal with a C3 and actually fought with said C3 for a significant period  of time (the *Top Tier he was up against wasn't able to land a solid hit in that entire time frame* and needed extraneous factors in order to finally land one).



I think Doflamingo could fight an admiral for a time and I don't think that makes him top tier. The same thing goes for Jozu.
---------------------------------


Kings Disposition said:


> *What has Doflamingo done to suggest that he's a Top Tier fighter or above Jozu?*



To suggest he is a top tier? Nothing. To suggest he is above Jozu alot.



Kings Disposition said:


> "Doflamingo beat a M3 level fighter with hax!"
> >Cool. Ceasar Clown beat a M3 fighter with hax too. Does that make him a Top Tier now?



Do you honestly think he even needed his parasite to beat Sanji when he didn't need it to beat Law? No it doesn't make him top tier.



Kings Disposition said:


> “Doflamingo sliced off the leg of someone as big as Oars. Jr!”
> >Nice. Moria stabbed him with a gigantic shadow spear and Kuma practically nuked him. Are they Top Tiers now too?



What is it with you and top tier, I am not calling the man top tier, I am just claiming he has better combat ability than Jozu.



Kings Disposition said:


> Also, Oars Jr is confirmed to be roughly the size of two giants. Jozu lifted up an iceberg ([/I]more than triple the size of Oar’s Jr.’s entire body[/I]) like it was a damn chair. If one of the biggest attacks shown by DD was only able to slice off Oars Jr's leg, what's he going to when an object of that maginitude is coming his way?



 Cut it in half or move out the way.



Kings Disposition said:


> “Doflamingo sliced up a meteor!”
> >No, he sliced up a decent portion of the meteor. The rest was handled by two other people (a fellow Shichibukai and an Admiral). The meteor still pales in comparison to the size of that iceberg.



Okay....



Kings Disposition said:


> "Doflamingo blocked relatively strong attacks from M3 level fighters!"
> >Great. But Jozu has accomplished something even more impressive by blocking an attack (meant for the World’s Strongest Man) from a Top Tier.



You know why was able to block that attack; are we giving Luffy props for being bullet resistant now?



Kings Disposition said:


> "Doflamingo went toe to toe with an Admiral for a significant period of time!"
> -Wait nvm, that was Jozu. DD has never shown this feat. As a matter of fact, he was up against that very same Admiral (who was nonchalant in that encounter) and was instantly + effortlessly frozen by him with a ranged attack. Yet against Jozu, Aokiji wasn't able to land a single hit during the entire time frame they were fighting and needed extraneous favors in order to do so.



And again we are back to this, because this is truly the only argument there is and it is a terrible one.  Doflamingo wasn't even fighting Aokiji, Jozu was there is a major difference.



Kings Disposition said:


> “But but but.....Doflamingo had his back turned!”
> >Doesn't matter. Facing him or not, there's nothing DD could've done to avoid that attack.*He couldn't even move his hand fast enough to finish off Smoker despite being extremely close to him. *



^Bolded, that was the point Aokiji had to freeze Doflamingo before he struck Smoker or else Smoker would be dead. I also like how you don't mention that Doflamingo lifted his arm in the air before the strike which allowed Aokiji to stop him in time.



Kings Disposition said:


> "But but but....he broke free!"
> >Well that's great. Except that it took him a few seconds and during that time, Aokiji could've easily killed/crippled him if he wanted. And what was stopping him from using that ranged freezing attack again right afterwards? If Aokiji could've disposed of Jozu that fast with his abilities, he would've but clearly he wasn’t able to.



Jozu was activeky fighting Aokiji Doflamingo was ignoring the man. If you want to to argue about the encounters why don't you tell me why Doflamingo could break out of the ice and Jozu could not. I am sure you have a good argument on how Aokiji's ice is not as cold when his hands are in his pockets and/or that he didn't freeze Doflamingo as much as he froze Jozu, because he secretly loves Doflamingo and didn't want to hurt him.



Kings Disposition said:


> "Doflamingo immobilized Jozu during the war!"
> >That's impressive. But we see Jozu just fine later in the war which suggests that either A) Doflamingo let him ago (which is possible but doubtful) or B) Jozu broke free somehow (which might be possible considering his level of Haki). Even if DD immobilized Jozu in a fight, what would he follow it up with? Overheat…the attack that a fatigued Law was able to stop?...Yea ok.



We don't know how Jozu got out but we do know that even with all his great strength he couldn't move and Doflamingo still could. Can Jozu turn his whole body including his insides into diamond and stay like that indefinitely? If not I could think of a hundred ways he could kill Jozu after he caught him.



Kings Disposition said:


> DD is obviously a formidable fighter and he’s most likely the strongest High-Tier in the series as someone pointed out earlier. But he hasn’t really shown much of anything that suggests he’s a Top Tier fighter or even above Jozu. If you've got reasons for why DD is a Top Tier, I'm all ears. But do so while also addressing these points.



I don't see either as top tier, but I  do see him as having superior combat ability than Jozu. I don't believe in all that admiral comparing and top tier talk to see who has better combat ability when we clearly have a good deal of feats and hype for both characters. If you want to debate their feats and individual hype we can, if you want to talk about how to compare them to admirals and who is top tier then I am not interested as I feel I have done enough of that in the OPBD for a life time.


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## Canute87 (Jul 20, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> ^A sufficient CoA guard that prevented Whitebeard from making contact with his "real body".
> 
> Similar to what happened with Whiebeard vs Kizaru and Marco + Vista vs Akainu.



How can Kizaru have a COA guard up when he's dispersing?


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## tanman (Jul 20, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> Probably because he’s in front of someone that’s capable of gigantic AoE attacks on a massive scale?



The point being that no such AOE attacks are going to slap Aokiji in the back, right? Nor would most fighters feel the need to prepare for the inane possibility that it would. It's very unlikely that he covered his entire front with CoA either. It's not like Whitebeard is massively faster than Aokiji where he has to maximize his defenses constantly because he can't react. Fighters use CoA as needed (when the attack is about to land) just like they use CoO.




Kings Disposition said:


> WB did connect with something. It was Aokiji's chest made of ice.
> 
> He's a solid Logia. Nothing suggests that he's capable of doing what you just described here. If he was smoke/gas/anything that can freely move in any direction without restriction, then what you're saying here would make more sense.



There's no such thing as a "solid logia" to the best of my knowledge. He's perfectly capable of moving the ice that makes up his body. In fact, we can see the icy air moving out in the image. And we can see that Aokiji's body doesn't have to be any more solid than any other logia  and , while certainly has that option being an ice man.

If Whitebeard had used CoA and Aokiji hadn't used CoA and the attack landed on Aokiji's real body, we know from Crocodile that the result is blood. If Whitebeard had used CoA and Aokiji used superior CoA and the attack landed on Aokiji's real body, we know from  that it would have resulted on the attack stopping at the "skin" of the logia's body. *Because, as far as we know, CoA is an armor. It doesn't make you more intangible.* However, if Whitebeard had used CoA and Aokiji did not CoA and the attack did not land because of CoO and logia skill, the attack would g ostraight through Aokiji like it did.


Again, I should reiterate that, as far as we know, CoA is an armor. It doesn't make you more intangible. So all three examples you referred to: Kizaru v. Whitebeard and Aokiji v. Whitebeard are in my opinion examples of CoO and logia control.


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## trance (Jul 20, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> ^A sufficient CoA guard that prevented Whitebeard from making contact with his "real body".
> 
> Similar to what happened with Whitebeard vs Kizaru and Marco + Vista vs Akainu.



Then, that would mean his CoA > Whitebeard's CoA and his CoA > Akainu's CoA since Whitebeard could only touch the latter but while Marco could hit Kuzan's real body with a sneak attack, he failed against Akainu's CoA.


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## Akitō (Jul 20, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> ?But but but.....Doflamingo had his back turned!?
> >Doesn't matter. Facing him or not, there's nothing DD could've done to avoid that attack. He couldn't even move his hand fast enough to finish off Smoker despite being extremely close to him.



This is a poor argument because Aokiji was right next to him. Obviously if a really fast character is extremely close to another character, that other character is going to find it really hard to avoid the speedster because there's barely going to be time to react. In a real fight, Doflamingo won't allow Aokiji to get a free hit without any sort of hindrance if he's that close to him. 



> Well that's great. Except that it took him a few seconds and during that time, Aokiji could've easily killed/crippled him if he wanted. And what was stopping him from using that ranged freezing attack again right afterwards? If Aokiji could've disposed of Jozu that fast with his abilities, he would've but clearly he wasn?t able to.



Do you have any evidence that suggests that Doflamingo couldn't have broken out of it faster? I think he knew Aokiji wasn't trying to kill him, so there was no reason for him to try his hardest. 

Besides, I'm pretty sure that this was just done for dramatic effect. It makes for more suspense and greater shock-value if Doflamingo doesn't instantly break free.


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## Kings Disposition (Jul 20, 2014)

2Broken said:


> No it would not be a better question because you are the one making that claim and I am claiming nothing. All I did was explain why it was unecessary and a waste of energy for him to be in Vergo mode. For your claim to have credibility you have to show why he would armor up like that despite it being completely unnecessary and he was fighting the WSM is not a valid argument. Whitebeard and Aokiji are on the same level and Aokiji can react to the man without trouble so the argument is extremely weak.


Well you said that full-body Haki requires a lot of effort and you're also implying that Aokiji didn't have a CoA guard up, so I can just as easily ask you to prove those as well. 

The difference is that what I'm saying makes more sense for a skillful fighter like Aokiji to do considering that he was in such a close proximity to a man that can shatter your entire body at any moment. Being extra safe (i.e. extra protected) and keeping up a CoA guard while standing that close to Whitebeard (that range carries *significant risks* since this seems to be going over your head) for a brief moment, is a logical course of action in that situation. 



2Broken said:


> But it is unecessary for him to do that, so you need more evidence than you think he should have to support your argument. ^Bolded; *that is true so why bother doing it instead of defending against attacks as they come?*


Because defending normally, in addition to enhancing your defenses with CoA, results in better protection?



2Broken said:


> This is what we are dicussing  it isn't another factor. Plus if you define top tier as anyone who can make contact with the C3 than of course only top tiers have done it. Do you see the circular reasoning?


Nothing of what you said here changes anything about the point your responding to. 



2Broken said:


> Yeah I don't put Marco in the same catergory as Akainu, Whitebeard, Shanks and other character who are far above him in combat ability. Even if he was top tier though that doesn't make Jozu top tier just becasue they are both the elite commanders.


Not believing that Marco is a Top Tier just shows how biased you are. And what you said still doesn't change the fact that he was portrayed alongside a Top Tier.



2Broken said:


> Really??? He turned his body in to diamond the hardest natural material on earth and *Mihawk didn't even know he would block it*.  Remember cutting material is not just about strength; reread Zoro vs. Daz Bones if you forget what I mean.


Which means absolutely nothing because the attack was meant for someone above Jozu.



2Broken said:


> Jozu does not get top tier for blocking that slash unless Buggy gets top tier for surving a direct slash from Mihawk.


Right....because Buggy went toe to toe with an Admiral. 



2Broken said:


> This is a good feat for Jozu and it definitely shows his great strength,  but does it put him in the same league as his captain who can wreck the entire island in a single punch? The answer is cleary no.


Kizaru hasn't destroyed an island with a single attack either. I guess that means he isn't Top Tier now by your logic. 

Also what part about "Jozu's attack was going to wipe out a significant portion of the Marines if a Top Tier hadn't stepped in to act" did you not understand?



2Broken said:


> *I think Doflamingo could fight an admiral for a time* and I don't think that makes him top tier. The same thing goes for Jozu.


So someone fighting on par with a Top Tier...somehow means that person shouldn't be considered a Top Tier...? What kind of logic is that???

Also back up the bolded with things from the manga.



2Broken said:


> To suggest he is a top tier? Nothing. To suggest he is above Jozu alot.


You say "a lot" but you have yet provide anything that does....



2Broken said:


> Do you honestly think he even needed his parasite to beat Sanji when he didn't need it to beat Law? No it doesn't make him top tier.


What I "think" is irrelevant. I'm simply stating what happened and Jozu fighting on par with Admiral trumps it big time.



2Broken said:


> What is it with you and top tier, I am not calling the man top tier, I am just claiming he has better combat ability than Jozu.


Because Jozu displayed actions in the manga that suggest he's a Top Tier. Doflamingo's actions do not. Do you see where I'm going with this?



2Broken said:


> Cut it in half or move out the way.


Ok either you didn't understand what I said or you're just ignoring the sheer magnitude of that iceberg. 

The size of Doflamingo's attack only cut off the leg of someone as big as Oars Jr. The size of Oars Jr's entire body is that of two giants. The iceberg that Jozu threw is more than triple the size of Oars Jr. If your still not understanding how *ridiculously* big this object was, go look at the scan and see just how tiny all those giants are in comparison. 

So for you say that DD will just "cut it in half" when he's never shown anything even remotely close to a cutting feat on such a massive scale.....and for you say that he'd simply "move out the way" when he didn't even outmaneuver that meteor (which is *much much* smaller than the iceberg)....is completely baseless.



2Broken said:


> You know why was able to block that attack; are we giving Luffy props for being bullet resistant now?


Ok why don't you go ahead and discredit all DF fighters in the entire OP verse while you're at it….



2Broken said:


> And again we are back to this, because this is truly the only argument there is and it is a terrible one.  Doflamingo wasn't even fighting Aokiji, Jozu was there is a major difference.


Aokiji used one attack on Doflamingo and effortlessly + instantly froze him (during which he could've easily crippled/killed him).

Aokiji kept attacking Jozu while they were fighting, couldn't land a solid hit for a significant period of time, and needed extraneous factors in order to do so.

I don't know how to make this any clearer.



2Broken said:


> ^Bolded, that was the point Aokiji had to freeze Doflamingo before he struck Smoker or else Smoker would be dead. I also like how you don't mention that Doflamingo lifted his arm in the air before the strike which allowed Aokiji to stop him in time.


How does any of this change what I said? Doflamingo still couldn't even move his hand fast enough to kill him despite being extremely close to/literally sitting on top of his target.



2Broken said:


> Jozu was activeky fighting Aokiji Doflamingo was ignoring the man. If you want to to argue about the encounters why don't you tell me why Doflamingo could break out of the ice and Jozu could not. I am sure you have a good argument on how Aokiji's ice is not as cold when his hands are in his pockets and/or that he didn't freeze Doflamingo as much as he froze Jozu, because he secretly loves Doflamingo and didn't want to hurt him.


Because the ranged ice attack used on DD was weaker than the one used on Jozu. Think about it for a moment. 

If Aokiji could've just used a ranged AoE ice attack (the one used on DD) to immediately dispose of Jozu, why didn't he? Saying "he didn't want to friendly fire his fellow Marines during the war" isn't going to cut it. Smoker was literally in the same location as Doflamingo and Aokiji still chose to use the ice wave regardless of that. 

In addition, why did Aokiji take the time + risk of moving in close to touch Jozu, if the ranged ice attack would've yield similar results (and not to mention, would’ve been safer)? 



2Broken said:


> We don't know how Jozu got out but we do know that even with all his great strength he couldn't move and Doflamingo still could. Can Jozu turn his whole body including his insides into diamond and stay like that indefinitely? If not I could think of a hundred ways he could kill Jozu after he caught him.


Parasite doesn't restrict DF abilities, which means that Jozu will still be able to keep up his Diamond defense. And again, how is DD going to damage someone who tanked a gigantic slash from the World's Strongest Man himself, when he didn't even break the guard of fatigued a Law?



2Broken said:


> I don't see either as top tier, but I  do see him as having superior combat ability than Jozu. I don't believe in all that admiral comparing and top tier talk to see who has better combat ability when we clearly have a good deal of feats and hype for both characters. If you want to debate their feats and individual hype we can, if you want to talk about how to compare them to admirals and who is top tier then I am not interested as I feel I have done enough of that in the OPBD for a life time.


Why? All Doflamingo has done is (impressively) handle M3 level fighters. Jozu could've easily done the same or even better considering that he fought on par with an Admiral (which is really all I need to dispute the claim that DD is superior to Jozu).


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## barreltheif (Jul 20, 2014)

Wow. That was like a milleniumforums level load of bullshit. Hopefully no one wastes their time responding to it.


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## Kings Disposition (Jul 20, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> How can Kizaru have a COA guard up when he's dispersing?


Just because he was about disperse into light doesn't mean that his “real body” wasn't there anymore to activate Haki. 



tanman said:


> The point being that no such AOE attacks are going to slap Aokiji in the back, right? Nor would most fighters feel the need to prepare for the inane possibility that it would. It's very unlikely that he covered his entire front with CoA either. It's not like Whitebeard is massively faster than Aokiji where he has to maximize his defenses constantly because he can't react. Fighters use CoA as needed (when the attack is about to land) just like they use CoO.


What you're saying here would hold more weight if Aokiji was at a decent distance from WB. That wasn't the case though because he was literally standing right in front of him. Being _that_ close to Whitebeard carries the significant risk of having your entire body shattered with a simple punch and Whitebeard isn't exactly slow either in close range considering he attacked Kizaru before he could even disperse into light.

And as I told someone else, go look at Vergo's full-body Haki and you can clearly see that his entire upper body (front, side, and back) was covered with Haki despite the fact that his opponent was directly in front of him.



tanman said:


> There's no such thing as a "solid logia" to the best of my knowledge. He's perfectly capable of moving the ice that makes up his body. In fact, we can see the icy air moving out in the image. And we can see that Aokiji's body doesn't have to be any more solid than any other logia  and , while certainly has that option being an ice man.


No…..Ice is most definitely a solid Logia. If a normal person tried to grab Aokiji's arm, their hand would actually stop and grasp cold solid matter. However, if someone tried to grab Smoker or Caesar for example, their hand would pass right though them and wouldn't hold onto anything because they aren't solid.

The only logia users that have done what you described are Smoker () and CC () because their specifc DFs allows them to fly/move freely in any direction without restriction. The ice DF is solid and has not once shown those same capabilities/properties.  



tanman said:


> If Whitebeard had used CoA and Aokiji hadn't used CoA and the attack landed on Aokiji's real body, we know from Crocodile that the result is blood. If Whitebeard had used CoA and Aokiji used superior CoA and the attack landed on Aokiji's real body, we know from  that it would have resulted on the attack stopping at the "skin" of the logia's body. *Because, as far as we know, CoA is an armor. It doesn't make you more intangible.* However, if Whitebeard had used CoA and Aokiji did not CoA and the attack did not land because of CoO and logia skill, the attack would g ostraight through Aokiji like it did.


That Smoker scan you’re referring to isn’t even applicable to what happened with WB vs Aokiji. To act as feint, Smoker launched his feet  in front of Law (it didn't make contact with the sword in that middle-right panel, which lacks the clash mark + sound effect that are present on the bottom panels of that very same page). Law slahsed it away in the next scan anyways (which can mean that there wasn’t even a superior Haki guard like you suggested) so it never really "stopped at his skin”. 

Furthermore, there wouldn’t be any point to putting a Haki guard on his feet because even if Law successfully ‘Room slashed’ him there, Smoker can still reform due to his smoke properties. 



tanman said:


> Again, I should reiterate that, as far as we know, CoA is an armor. It doesn't make you more intangible. So all three examples you referred to: Kizaru v. Whitebeard, Aokiji v. Whitebeard, and Akainu v. Marco and Vista are in my opinion examples of CoO and logia control.


Saying that Akainu also used "CoO and Logia mastery" to avoid Marco + Vista's attacks in a similar fashion doesn't really make sense. We can clearly see the slash marks making contact with his body and his head is pratically slanting off. It even seems like he expressed a slight amount of pain and outright stated his annoyance against the Haki users that attacked him. Even if what you're saying is true, then Akainu would've needed to purposefully sever his own body at the *exact* moment and at the *exact* angles where he was about to be cut...I just don't see that being plausible at all.



Stαrkiller said:


> Then, that would mean his CoA > Whitebeard's CoA and his CoA > Akainu's CoA since Whitebeard could only touch the latter but while Marco could hit Kuzan's real body with a sneak attack, he failed against Akainu's CoA.


....No it doesn't mean that. Just because his CoA attack failed that one moment, doesn't automatically mean that his CoA is completely inferior or that all of his future attacks would fail either. 

That's like saying, "well Smoker blocked Law's Room slash with Haki so Smoker CoA > Law CoA without a doubt. And Vergo's Haki attack overpowered Smoker's Haki so Vergo CoA > Smoker CoA. But wait, Law overpowered Vergo's Haki so Law CoA > Vergo CoA. So doesn't that actually mean Law CoA > Smoker CoA instead?" It's best not to make sweeping generalized statements like these or the ones you made because they can lead to some problems.


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## Kings Disposition (Jul 20, 2014)

Akitō said:


> This is a poor argument because Aokiji was right next to him. Obviously if a really fast character is extremely close to another character, that other character is going to find it really hard to avoid the speedster because there's barely going to be time to react. *In a real fight, Doflamingo won't allow Aokiji to get a free hit without any sort of hindrance if he's that close to him.*


Why not? DD was completely aware of Aokiji's presence and still wasn't able to prevent himself from being frozen + couldn't even most move fast enough to kill Smoker despite being literally on top of him. How would being in a "real fight" somehow grant him immunity to being frozen by the same exact ice wave if he’s “that close”? How would it somehow make him move so much faster that he'd be able to avoid the attack? 



Akitō said:


> Do you have any evidence that suggests that Doflamingo couldn't have broken out of it faster? I think he knew Aokiji wasn't trying to kill him, so there was no reason for him to try his hardest.
> 
> Besides, I'm pretty sure that this was just done for dramatic effect. It makes for more suspense and greater shock-value if Doflamingo doesn't instantly break free.


Why would DD just assume that a rogue Aokiji wouldn't kill him for threatening the life of his friend? He isn't a Marine anymore so he doesn't have any lawful obligations not to kill him. If Aokiji wanted, he could've broken DD's arms and feet, dragged the rest of his body to the PH lake, and left Doflamingo to drown for none to find. 

Sure if he did that, the government would have to take action because of the Shichibukai status and all, but how would they know? I highly doubt Smoker would tell them considering he didn't sell out Law (a pirate that he just met) to DD and most likely wouldn't sell out his old friend (who had just saved his life) anyways.



barreltheif said:


> Wow. That was like a milleniumforums level load of bullshit. Hopefully no one wastes their time responding to it.


Say’s the guy who assumed that I said Haki somehow makes you more “fluid” or “Luffy more rubbery”. Seriously, where the hell did that even from? Quote where I said anything even remotely close to those statements.


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## Extravlad (Jul 20, 2014)

This thread is garbage.
Doflaming will be taken down by Luffy at the the beginning of part 2.

That mean he is obviously a fodder to the endgame vilains, whereas Jozu *is not*.

I don't know in which universe stomping people like Law and Sanji make Dofla more impressive than guys like Vista or Jozu who went toe to toe with Mihawk/Kuzan.

Maybe in the same universe where Luffy can apparently give mid diff to a Yonko, the "Ohara Battledome fanfiction".


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## 2Broken (Jul 20, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> Well you said that full-body Haki requires a lot of effort and you're also implying that Aokiji didn't have a CoA guard up, so I can just as easily ask you to prove those as well.



I said it takes effort not a lot of effort and I am not implying anything, I just showed you that your opinion of Aokiji having full body haki up is not supported over him not having it up. The burden of proof is on you you are the one making a claim not me.



Kings Disposition said:


> The difference is that what I'm saying makes more sense for a skillful fighter like Aokiji to do considering that he was in such a close proximity to a man that can shatter your entire body at any moment. Being extra safe (i.e. extra protected) and keeping up a CoA guard while standing that close to Whitebeard (that range carries *significant risks* since this seems to be going over your head) for a brief moment, is a logical course of action in that situation.



You make it sound like Whitebeard was on a totally different level. Aokiji is capable of fighting the man head on; he just defended against an attack from the old man. If he has to take a hit he can just armor up before he takes it, which is why your keeping it up is unnecessary.



Kings Disposition said:


> Because defending normally, in addition to enhancing your defenses with CoA, results in better protection?



But why does he have to keep it up?



Kings Disposition said:


> Not believing that Marco is a Top Tier just shows how biased you are. And what you said still doesn't change the fact that he was portrayed alongside a Top Tier.



No it is my opinion, I don't call you bias for yours. Why don't you tell me how Whitebeard vs. Marco would go before you tell me they are obviously on the same level.



Kings Disposition said:


> Which means absolutely nothing because the attack was meant for someone above Jozu.



 You are being ridiculous. Devil fruit abilities don't matter now?  So I guess East Blue Luffy > Whitebeard because he is bulletproof and whitebeard isn't? He blocked the slash because he had the perfect ability to do so.



Kings Disposition said:


> Right....because Buggy went toe to toe with an Admiral.



We were discussion how you tried to use Jozu's feat of blocking Mihawk's slash as evidence for him being top tier. I then explained why that was ludicrous because he had the perfect ability to avoid damage, just like buggy had the perfect ability to avoid damage from Mihawk's slash. Try to keep up.



Kings Disposition said:


> Kizaru hasn't destroyed an island with a single attack either. I guess that means he isn't Top Tier now by your logic.



You were using his kiceberg throwing feat to make a claim he was top tier,  I responded by stating that the feat alone doesn't put him on the level of his captain as Whitebeard can do magnitude more with a swing of his arm. Kizaru has other abilities that put him in the same league as Whitebeard, Jozu does not.



Kings Disposition said:


> Also what part about "Jozu's attack was going to wipe out a significant portion of the Marines if a Top Tier hadn't stepped in to act" did you not understand?



I understood it fine, but it still doesn't put him in the top tier spot. You act like Jozu has a giant iceberg in his pocket at all times, I know he has great physical strength, but that is not enough




Kings Disposition said:


> So someone fighting on par with a Top Tier...somehow means that person shouldn't be considered a Top Tier...? What kind of logic is that???



You aren't fighting on par with someone unless you have a chance at victory. Jozu had no chance at winning, thus he was not fighting on par with Aokiji.



Kings Disposition said:


> Also back up the bolded with things from the manga.



I am not interested in having a debate on if Doflamingo can fight an admiral for a while or not, while I am trying to have a debate on is Doflamingo has better combat ability than Jozu. I want to discuss each individual characters abilities and why one is superior to the other. I don't know when it became popular to debate the strength of two characters by bringing in several others into the discussion, but I am not doing it anymore.



Kings Disposition said:


> You say "a lot" but you have yet provide anything that does....



Once we get to the point where we can compare the abilities of these two characters and not go back in fourth on what we think top tier is and what it means to be able to hit an admiral I promise I will provide reasons.



Kings Disposition said:


> What I "think" is irrelevant. I'm simply stating what happened and Jozu fighting on par with Admiral trumps it big time.
> 
> There is a difference between fighting on par and simply fight, you probably don't see that though.
> 
> ...


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## tanman (Jul 20, 2014)

So many people are arguing with you at the same time that I figure I'll minimize my response for your convenience:

1. Regardless of how close Whitebeard is, he's still attacking from the front. No reason to put CoA over your entire body. The fact that the attack went straight through his body and Jozu's did not supports this. Putting CoA where he wasn't being attacked wasn't a priority.

2. Vergo's special form is clearly somewhat unique to him and intended to hold his body together instead of letting himself get ripped a part by Law. In this case, full body CoA not only comes in handy, but is confirmed to be in use. This isn't the case for Aokiji.

3. Clearly, Aokiji can rearrange his body on the fly to avoid attacks. I gave you two scans showing Aokiji doing that, in direct contrast to what you said about it "not once being shown" (are you ignoring them, or do you believe them to be illegitimate?) Literally every logia, not just CC and Smoker, has done this. I don't understand how that can be denied. I can provide a hundred other scans showing that if you would like.

4. Your Smoker v Law comment is a reach. SFX aren't always shown and Law isn't dumb enough to hold up his sword to an attack that's going to stop just short of him. Smoker would need to be far faster than him to convince him he was attacking at full speed. CoA was applied in that instance for offensive power, not defensive power. There's no indication that Smoker's foot was slashed away instead of him dispersing it himself. If you're unconvinced, here's another example: . Kizaru v Rayleigh is another good example as Rayleigh failed to cut Kizaru's obviously-not-"solid" body without going through him.

5. Obviously Akainu didn't create his own cuts. Recall option (B) from this post . This is what I believe. I misspoke when I grouped that together with the other two encounters. You would certainly be incorrect, however, to believe that Kizaru's dispersed body was hakified when the entire purpose of CoA is to create an armor that makes both the user and the victim more solid. Kizaru simply dodged. The simplest explanation is the most correct one.


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## Shanks (Jul 20, 2014)

Oh my, TL;DR debates... I miss those days. Keep it up guys. I'll read these Too Long: Didn't Read thing, possible in a couple months when I have some free time. 

How does Noon, Sept - 9th over a beer sound?


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## Kings Disposition (Jul 21, 2014)

@2Broken

You repeat that Doflamingo would just simply cut an iceberg bigger than the size of 7 giants combined, when he only sliced a decent portion of meteor (which isn't even close to size of that iceberg and wasn't even destroyed entirely by him). 

You're suggesting that he can control Jozu's mouth to open (when Parasite victims were still able to talk on their own) so that he can cut his insides, when nothing suggests that his insides aren't Diamond in the first place (Luffy's insides are rubber as well which is why he was able to use G2).

You ignore the question about why wouldn't Aokiji just use the same ice attack (the ice wave he used on DD) on Jozu to immediately dispose of him or at least keep him frozen long enough so that he could freeze him "over time" with a touch. Or why would he take the time + risk of moving close to Jozu when he could've used the ice wave attack that supposedly yields the same results as a touch. 

You still haven't provided anything that trumps Jozu's feat of fighting with the Admirals or anything that suggests that he could've done the same. And because you haven't, you want me to just completely disregard manga evidence that supports Jozu's case at your convenience? Lolok.

If you have reasons for why Doflamingo > Jozu, you would've presented them by now.


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## Kings Disposition (Jul 21, 2014)

tanman said:


> 1. Regardless of how close Whitebeard is, he's still attacking from the front. *No reason to put CoA over your entire body.* The fact that the attack went straight through his body and Jozu's did not supports this. Putting CoA where he wasn't being attacked wasn't a priority.


Like I said earlier, Law was also attacking Vergo from the front, yet Vergo still had Haki behind his back and sides.

And in regards to the bolded, I'm pretty sure that the possibility of   happening is reason enough and being that close increases the chances of it occurring that much more. A quake punch deals damage to the entire body, which makes full-body Haki a viable choice of defense in that situation.



tanman said:


> 2. Vergo's special form is clearly somewhat unique to him and intended to hold his body together instead of letting himself get ripped a part by Law. In this case, full body CoA not only comes in handy, but is confirmed to be in use. This isn't the case for Aokiji.


Special form? Unique? Dude...it's just Haki. We've seen it applied in all sorts of ways: a tiny spot on Luffy's forehead, half of Dofalmingo's torso, Smoker's entire Jutte, Chinjao's forearm, Vergo's body.....etc. I highly doubt that fullbody is exclusive to Vergo and pretty sure that Admiral level fighters that are above him would be able to replicate it. 



tanman said:


> 3. Clearly, Aokiji can rearrange his body on the fly to avoid attacks. I gave you two scans showing Aokiji doing that, in direct contrast to what you said about it "not once being shown" (are you ignoring them, or do you believe them to be illegitimate?) Literally every logia, not just CC and Smoker, has done this. I don't understand how that can be denied. I can provide a hundred other scans showing that if you would like.


Aokiji didn't even avoid the attack in one of the scans you showed. Robin actually attacked him and shattered his body. How that's even remotely similar to  or  (actual examples of Logia's freely moving their bodies to move/fly out the way in order to avoid an attack) is beyond me. 

I specifically stated that he has never once shown the properties of smoke and gas. And he hasn't He has never once made his own body parts fly freely in the air. He has never once moved half of his body in one direction and the other half in another. Both of the scans you provided don't show him doing anything like that. 

Aokiji making a hole that's exactly the same size as the area where he was about to be stabbed just isn't plausible to me. And just because other Logia's have shown to control themselves like that, doesn't mean Aokiji can because Logia's don't all have the same exact properties.



tanman said:


> 4. Your Smoker v Law comment is a reach. SFX aren't always shown and Law isn't dumb enough to hold up his sword to an attack that's going to stop just short of him. Smoker would need to be far faster than him to convince him he was attacking at full speed. CoA was applied in that instance for offensive power, not defensive power. There's no indication that Smoker's foot was slashed away instead of him dispersing it himself. If you're unconvinced, here's another example: . Kizaru v Rayleigh is another good example as Rayleigh failed to cut Kizaru's obviously-not-"solid" body without going through him.


Err...not it isn't. The panel itself doesn't even look like they made contact and even if they did, there would've been a clash mark, a sound effect, or both (Oda tends to show these when things have clashed). And Law did slash his feet away....you can clearly see his sword passing along the smoke + the smoke was left in curved formation along the sword.

The Sabo vs Bastille scan is a better example but still isn't entirely comparable to what happened between Aokiji vs Whitebeard. It was Sabo's CoA + fingers (which are extremely strong) guarding against the attack, while Aokiji was only using CoA.



tanman said:


> 5. Obviously Akainu didn't create his own cuts. Recall option (B) from this post . This is what I believe. I misspoke when I grouped that together with the other two encounters. *You would certainly be incorrect, however, to believe that Kizaru's dispersed body was hakified when the entire purpose of CoA is to create an armor that makes both the user and the victim more solid.* Kizaru simply dodged. The simplest explanation is the most correct one.


So Kizaru, without even looking in Whitebeard's direction (you can't even say he saw the attack coming with CoO because there's a surprise marker right over his head), made a indent in himself that matched the *exact* same shape of where WB's spear was going to land and said indent conveniently stopped forming *exactly* where the spear ended up? Again, I just can't see this as being plausible. 

And judging from the bolded, it sounds like you're saying that Logia's can't apply Haki into themselves while in their Logia state because Haki is supposed to solidify their body. If that's case, doesn't that mean Logia users are unable to apply Haki into their Logia attacks?


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## tanman (Jul 21, 2014)

We're going in circles here.


Law's ability literally splits you in two, and he can do it in whatever direction he wants when in his room (however it's possible that it's more potent when done from the front) so that's the point of the armor.  Whitebeard while powerful isn't quite that haxx, hardening your left arm won't help defend againt an attack to the chest, even from WB. Aokiji was in control of his fight with Whitebeard. He let the bisento go through him.  While it's possible that he's capable of full body CoA, there simply is no need to do it in response to such a linear attack. It's not fisticuffs like his fight with Akainu. Not to mention, the more CoA that he's using, the less mobile he is. And mobility was clearly the tool he was using against WB. Even if you can successfully argue that full body CoA was a "viable choice," that doesn't mean he was actually using it especially when there's evidence to the contrary.

Well, it isn't just Haki. Doflamingo praised Vergo's skill with CoA. To do that to your entire body is clearly an unusual skill. Other characters may possess that skill, but I doubt it will ever be considered a standard application of hardening.


I don't understand. I provided a scan of Luffy's punches going through Aokiji. in that case, Luffy was punching the ice away. Are you saying that Aokiji is incapable of moving his own ice away unlike literally every other logia. He did the same thing against Whitebeard. Logias have certain standard properties. I'm not saying he's sending out detached limbs, but I am saying that he can make attacks go through him even attacks with CoA due to his high level of skill.

What I need you to demonstrate to me is how CoA, an ability that hardens the body, can make a character more intangible. *Why would CoA make an attack go through Aokiji?* You say it's implausible for a logia to make a hole in their body or otherwise manipulating their body to avoid attacks  despite weaker characters doing lesser versions of just that. But you don't seem to recognize how implausible it is for this to be CoA.


CoA + fingers is different CoA + chest??? I don't understand that logic. Bastille made contact with a logia who had superior CoA, and he didn't go through him. So why would Whitbeard go through Aokiji if Aokiji used superior Haki.  


With Kizaru, we're both talking about , right?  Because it's pretty obvious there that Kizaru made it so that there's nothing solid for WB to hit, ie not CoA. I don't understand what you're trying to prove with the surprise marker. Are you saying he had time to react with CoA, but he didn't have enough time to react with his logia ability/CoO? That doesn't make any sense. Kizaru is clearly faster than Old non-bloodlusted Whitebeard and could react with his logia ability to just about any attack sent at him. Him turning into light and avoiding the hit seems a lot more plausible to me than CoA somehow making him more intangible.


What do you mean "logia attacks?" Logias can of course apply Haki to their physical body parts (so Smoker's foot can have CoA even if it's just hanging there in mid air surrounded by smoke).  Advanced users can likely apply CoA to projectiles like Akainu's magma fist. But if Kizaru is becoming just free form light, he can't apply CoA to that. You can't apply CoA to the pure free form element.


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## Kings Disposition (Jul 22, 2014)

tanman said:


> Law's ability literally splits you in two, and he can do it in whatever direction he wants when in his room (however it's possible that it's more potent when done from the front) so that's the point of the armor. Whitebeard while powerful isn't quite that haxx, hardening your left arm won't help defend againt an attack to the chest, even from WB. Aokijiwas in control of his fight with Whitebeard. He let the bisento go through him. While it's possible that he's capable of full body CoA, there simply is no need to do it in response to such a linear attack. It's not fisticuffs like his fight with Akainu. Not to mention, the more CoA that he's using, the less mobile he is. And mobility was clearly the tool he was using against WB. Even if you can successfully argue that full body CoA was a "viable choice," that doesn't mean he was actually using it especially when there's evidence to the contrary.
> 
> Well, it isn't just Haki. Doflamingo praised Vergo's skill with CoA. To do that to your entire body is clearly an unusual skill. Other characters may possess that skill, but I doubt it will ever be considered a standard application of hardening.


In order to do that, Law uses a sword as a medium for his ability. So youre only getting split apart by Rooms effects if youre in the trajectory of the sword swing. The sword swing was coming only from the front, yet Vergo still activated Haki over his entire body. He didnt just wait until the last second to do it, he took the necessary precautions before engaging Law since that was the smart thing to do in that situation (just like Aokiji did when he engaged WB) and its better to be safe than sorry against that ability (same goes for WB's ability).

Against WB, Aokiji has even more of a reason to activate full-body Haki since a body shattering quake punch couldve come virtually at any moment  and being up close to the person that's capable of those quakes warrants some degree of precaution (full-body Haki for one).

And no, it literally is just Haki. Vergo applied it to his entire body, just like he applied it to his entire weapon. DD only boasted his level of Haki and taunted Law about not being able to breach it. He never said anything about full-body Haki specifically. 



tanman said:


> I don't understand. I provided a scan of Luffy's punches going through Aokiji. in that case, Luffy was punching the ice away. Are you saying that Aokiji is incapable of moving his own ice away unlike literally every other logia. He did the same thing against Whitebeard. Logias have certain standard properties. I'm not saying he's sending out detached limbs, but I am saying that he can make attacks go through him even attacks with CoA due to his high level
> of skill.


You claimed those scans of Aokiji were examples of him avoiding attacks in a similar fashion to CC and Smoker....but they arent. Luffys attack landed on Aokiji's Logia form which means that Aokiji didnt actually avoid the attack. Sure he avoided the damage by virtue of being a Logia, but the attack itself still hit him which is why parts of his body were shattered. You saying that this example is even remotely similar to Smoker + CC literally moving their Logia body parts out of harms way makes absolutely no sense. 

Using a scan of Aokiji that easily looks like he was just stabbed in his solid Logia state isnt going to cut it. Show me scans of him moving is body parts freely in the air, show me scans of him moving half of his body in one direction and the other half towards another, or anything that shows that he has similar properties to *gas* (not Gas Logia) or *smoke* (not Smoke Logia). I say those two elements because Smoker and CC have literally shown that they can accomplish what youre claiming Aokiji did against WB. 



tanman said:


> What I need you to demonstrate to me is how CoA, an ability that hardens the body, can make a character more intangible. Why would CoA make an attack go throughAokiji? You say it's implausible for a logia to make a hole in their body or otherwise manipulating their body to avoid attacks despite weaker characters doing lesser versions of just that. But you don't seem to recognize how implausible it is for this to be CoA.


I never even stated that CoA makes you more intangible. I only said that the CoA guard that Aokiji put up was strong enough to defend against the CoA that WB used at that moment. But since the CoA was successfully defended against, all thats left was the spear which had a similar effect to Luffys attack against Aokiji  (a Haki-less attack that landed, but failed to harm his real body"). 



tanman said:


> CoA + fingers is different CoA + chest??? I don't understand that logic. Bastille made contact with a logia who had superior CoA, and he didn't go through him. So why would Whitbeard go through Aokiji if Aokiji used superior Haki.


Im just pointing out that they're not entirely comparable. Aokiji chest is ordinary (in a manner of speaking) while Sabos fingers arent (theres a great emphasis on them + Sabo considers them to be like Dragon Claws). Pretend that Sabo and Aokiji werent Logia or Haki users for a moment. If someone slashed Aokijis chest, hed most likely bleed. If someone slashed Sabos fingers, they most likely wouldnt have been harmed.

In the WB vs Aokiji scenario (both of which are in the same ballpark in terms of combat prowess), WBs Haki was able to breach Aokijis Haki and allowed the spear to pierce his chest (didnt hit the real body since the applied Haki was already used against Aokijis Haki beforehand). I doubt that Bastile wouldve been able to do something similar considering his level of Haki is most likely signifcantly weaker than Sabos.

Also, theres a good chance that Sabo wasnt even in his Logia state at that moment. He already showed difficulty controlling the fruit since he just got the DF power. 



tanman said:


> With Kizaru, we're both talking about this, right? Because it's pretty obvious there that Kizaru made it so that there's nothing solid for WB to hit, ie not CoA. I don't understand what you're trying to prove with the surprise marker. Are you saying he had time to react with CoA, but he didn't have enough time to react with his logia ability/CoO? That doesn't make any sense. Kizaru is clearly faster than Old non-bloodlusted Whitebeard and could react with his logia ability to just about any attack sent at him. Him turning into light and avoiding the hit seems a lot more plausible to me than CoA somehow making him more intangible.


Yes that was the scan I was referring to. He wasnt facing Whitebeard and earlier you suggested that used he used CoO there. So if he knew that WB's attack was incoming with CoO, how do you explain the surprise marker over his head?  

(In regards to your CoA question for that scenario: My personal answer is that even though he knew WB was relatively nearby, he didnt actually think Whitebeard wouldve interrupted him in time but still took the same precautions that Aokiji took earlier by maintaining a full CoA guard.)

Also, youre claiming that Kizaru avoided WBs (who Kizaru wasnt even facing at the time) attack with his CoO + Logia abilities, yet he couldnt even do the same exact thing against Marco (who he literally saw flying straight towards him). How do you explain that?



tanman said:


> What do you mean "logia attacks?" Logias can of course apply Haki to their physical body parts (so Smoker's foot can have CoA even if it's just hanging there in mid air surrounded by smoke). *Advanced users can likely apply CoA to projectiles like Akainu's magma fist. But if Kizaru is becoming just free form light, he can't apply CoA to that. You can't apply CoA to the pure free form element.*


The bolded statements are contradicting each other. Youre basically saying: 
> Akainu is capable applying Haki into the parts of his body that hes turning into his element
> Kizaru is incapable applying Haki into the parts of his body that hes turning into his element

They're both doing the same thing (turning their body parts into their element), so why can one apply Haki to their element but not the other?


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## barreltheif (Jul 22, 2014)

Obviously, WB's attack wasn't stopped by Aokiji's CoA armor. The attack went clean through Aokiji.


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## Kings Disposition (Jul 22, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> Obviously, WB's attack wasn't stopped by Aokiji's CoA armor. The attack went clean through Aokiji.


Why do you keep putting words in my mouth? I never said Aokiji stopped WB's attack. If you've actually been reading what I've been saying, you would've seen that I even said this: 


Kings Disposition said:


> WB did connect with something. It was Aokiji's chest made of ice.



Also, you ever going to explain the bottom quote that was included in your response to me earlier?:


barreltheif said:


> When a Logia uses CoA, it doesn't make their body more fluidlike. If anything, it makes their body harder and more solid. When Luffy uses CoA, it doesn't make him more rubbery.


I never stated that Haki makes your body more "fluid" or that it would Luffy more "rubbery"  and still have no idea where you even got those ideas from.


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## barreltheif (Jul 22, 2014)

What you're saying is that when a Logia uses CoA, that makes it harder to connect with their real body. This is obviously not the case, because using CoA makes the user's body harder, not more fluid. We've even seen multiple Logias using CoA, and it made them harder; their opponent didn't pass through them.

If that's not what you meant to be saying, then you need to explain yourself, because I'm pretty sure everyone took you to be saying that.


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## Kings Disposition (Jul 22, 2014)

Ok I *never* stated that Haki makes your body more “fluid’ or more “rubbery”, so I most definitely *don’t* need to explain something I never said in the first place. Please provde quotes where I even remotely suggested this. 

In regards to WB vs Aokiji, I’ve already explained my interpretation of what happened but I’m going to assume that you didn’t read it judging by the fact that you just accused me of saying Aokiji stopped WB attack (when I literally claimed the exact opposite of that).


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## 2Broken (Jul 22, 2014)

tanman said:


> We're going in circles here.



You and Barreltheif should not even bother anymore. This started, because King's Disposition believes Jozu > Doflamingo. The thing is he doesn't even want to debate that and that is why you guys are going back and forth about whether a specific character who is not even Doflamingo or Jozu used haki against another person who is neither Doflamingo or Jozu against one attack hundreds of chapters ago.

I told him we could debate their individual abilities,  but he would rather go in circles about how to call one of the characters top tier and how to use admiral scaling. Until he is willing to actually talk about the abilities of Doflamingo and Jozu you wont be able to get anywhere in your debate. If he can't do that take it as a concession that he doesn't really have an argument as I have.


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## barreltheif (Jul 22, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> Ok I *never* stated that Haki makes your body more ?fluid? or more ?rubbery?, so I most definitely *don?t* need to explain something I never said in the first place. Please provde quotes where I even remotely suggested this.
> 
> In regards to WB vs Aokiji, I?ve already explained my interpretation of what happened but I?m going to assume that you didn?t read it judging by the fact that you just accused me of saying Aokiji stopped WB attack (when I literally claimed the exact opposite of that).



...........



barreltheif said:


> What you're saying is that when a Logia uses CoA, that makes it harder to connect with their real body. *If that's not what you meant to be saying, then you need to explain yourself, because I'm pretty sure everyone took you to be saying that.*


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## Akitō (Jul 22, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> Why not? DD was completely aware of Aokiji's presence and still wasn't able to prevent himself from being frozen + couldn't even most move fast enough to kill Smoker despite being literally on top of him. How would being in a "real fight" somehow grant him immunity to being frozen by the same exact ice wave if he’s “that close”? How would it somehow make him move so much faster that he'd be able to avoid the attack?



Him being aware of Aokiji's presence doesn't mean that he was doing his best to avoid the attack. It makes sense that he wasn't using all he had to dodge or defend because he was largely focused on killing Smoker. Being in a real fight wouldn't grant him immunity, but he wouldn't be that close in a real fight without any sort of hindrance. The only reason Aokiji was that close to him was because Doflamingo didn't care enough to run away or cause him some annoyance before he got that close to him. If he does manage to get that close to him, Doflamingo I'm sure would be preparing to attack him while Aokiji's closing the distance. As soon as Aokiji is that close to him, Doflamingo will be firing off attacks. 

Beyond that, you're assuming that it takes a shorter amount of time to attack Smoker than it would take to defend against or dodge Aokiji's attack. Don't know where you pulled that one from. Moreover, we don't know how characters break out from the ice. How do you know that Doflamingo at the time was using whatever you need to break out to its max. extent? Much of his attention was on attacking Smoker, so I wouldn't at all be surprised if he wasn't using everything he had to fend off Aokiji. 



> Why would DD just assume that a rogue Aokiji wouldn't kill him for threatening the life of his friend? He isn't a Marine anymore so he doesn't have any lawful obligations not to kill him. If Aokiji wanted, he could've broken DD's arms and feet, dragged the rest of his body to the PH lake, and left Doflamingo to drown for none to find.



It's just an assumption that I make because the alternative is that either: a.) Doflamingo put his life in grave danger by provoking a person who can kill him and is aiming to kill him, or b.) Doflamingo can escape from Aokiji regardless of what he does. Considering Doflamingo is an experienced pirate who knows of his limits and seems to know how strong Admirals are, I find it extremely unlikely that the first option is true. Law made it clear that Doflamingo knows the Admirals are a very serious threat to him when he threatened to unleash the Admirals on him. Why would he knowingly put his life in grave danger when he has other options that he can explore? That wouldn't make much sense. The second option could be true, and it's one that I find to be the most likely honestly. I just don't like putting it out there when I'm arguing against people who don't hold nearly the same opinions as I hold because I like to find common ground in order to make the debate flow more smoothly. 

And he would assume that Aokiji wouldn't kill him because he knows Aokiji's personality. He's a carefree guy who rarely resorts to killing people. He also had his hands in his pocket and didn't move a muscle when he attacked. I mean, he'd think Aokiji wasn't trying to kill him for exact same reasons we as readers don't think Aokiji was trying to kill him. Remember that we're talking about after Aokiji had already attacked. 

This point is moot anyway IMO because I think the delay in Doflamingo breaking out was put there because Oda wanted to dramatize the scene.


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## Kings Disposition (Jul 22, 2014)

2Broken said:


> You and Barreltheif should not even bother anymore. This started, because King's Disposition believes Jozu > Doflamingo. The thing is he doesn't even want to debate that and that is why you guys are going back and forth about whether a specific character who is not even Doflamingo or Jozu used haki against another person who is neither Doflamingo or Jozu against one attack hundreds of chapters ago.
> 
> I told him we could debate their individual abilities,  but he would rather go in circles about how to call one of the characters top tier and how to use admiral scaling. *Until he is willing to actually talk about the abilities of Doflamingo and Jozu you wont be able to get anywhere in your debate*. If he can't do that take it as a concession that he doesn't really have an argument as I have.


@Bolded. My debate with him wasn't even about Doflamingo so this sentence here makes absolutely no sense. 

You didn't even present an actual argument for Doflamingo and made statements like "I think Doflamingo could fight with an Admiral" without backing it up with anything manga. And there's absolutely no reason why I shouldn't present  legitimate feats for Jozu just because you can't provide feats for DD that are just as good or better.



barreltheif said:


> If that's not what you meant to be saying, then you need to explain yourself, because I'm pretty sure everyone took you to be saying that.





Kings Disposition said:


> In regards to WB vs Aokiji,* I?ve already explained* my interpretation of what happened but I?m going to assume that you didn?t read it judging by the fact that you just accused me of saying Aokiji stopped WB attack (when I literally claimed the exact opposite of that).



*Now provide a quote of me even remotely suggesting that Haki makes you more 'fluid' or more 'rubbery'.*


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## Kings Disposition (Jul 22, 2014)

Akitō said:


> Him being aware of Aokiji's presence doesn't mean that he was doing his best to avoid the attack. It makes sense that he wasn't using all he had to dodge or defend because he was largely focused on killing Smoker. Being in a real fight wouldn't grant him immunity, but he wouldn't be that close in a real fight without any sort of hindrance. The only reason Aokiji was that close to him was because Doflamingo didn't care enough to run away or cause him some annoyance before he got that close to him. If he does manage to get that close to him, Doflamingo I'm sure would be preparing to attack him while Aokiji's closing the distance. As soon as Aokiji is that close to him, Doflamingo will be firing off attacks.
> 
> Beyond that, you're assuming that it takes a shorter amount of time to attack Smoker than it would take to defend against or dodge Aokiji's attack. Don't know where you pulled that one from. Moreover, we don't know how characters break out from the ice. How do you know that Doflamingo at the time was using whatever you need to break out to its max. extent? Much of his attention was on attacking Smoker, so I wouldn't at all be surprised if he wasn't using everything he had to fend off Aokiji.


You?re making it seem like having his attention on Smoker would?ve significantly impaired him from doing much of anything else or would?ve made him forget to take into consideration that an Admiral was threatening him. DD decided to attack and knew for a fact that Aokiji would retaliate (whether he successfully killed Smoker or not), so him not taking precautions or atleast having a backup plan in mind before attacking Smoker is doubtful. And assuming that DD did those things, it wouldn?t have mattered in the end anyways since he was stopped after barely moving his hand.  

You bring up good points about what can happen in actual fighting situation but my post was mostly referring to when you said ?that close?. If Aokiji manages to get within range, I highly doubt that DD would be able to avoid the ice wave considering that he didn?t even have enough time to move his hand in a downward motion. Point is, DD would?ve been frozen in that situation whether he was facing Aokiji or not.

And I never said that DD was using the maximum amount of effort to break free from the ice. But it most likely required a considerable amount of effort since it took him a brief moment to do so and he was panting afterwards (Oda showing these things makes it unlikely that this was just for ?dramatic effect?). 



Akitō said:


> It's just an assumption that I make because the alternative is that either: a.) Doflamingo put his life in grave danger by provoking a person who can kill him and is aiming to kill him, or b.) Doflamingo can escape from Aokiji regardless of what he does. Considering Doflamingo is an experienced pirate who knows of his limits and seems to know how strong Admirals are, I find it extremely unlikely that the first option is true. Law made it clear that Doflamingo knows the Admirals are a very serious threat to him when he threatened to unleash the Admirals on him. Why would he knowingly put his life in grave danger when he has other options that he can explore? That wouldn't make much sense. The second option could be true, and it's one that I find to be the most likely honestly. I just don't like putting it out there when I'm arguing against people who don't hold nearly the same opinions as I hold because I like to find common ground in order to make the debate flow more smoothly.
> 
> And he would assume that Aokiji wouldn't kill him because he knows Aokiji's personality. He's a carefree guy who rarely resorts to killing people. He also had his hands in his pocket and didn't move a muscle when he attacked. I mean, he'd think Aokiji wasn't trying to kill him for exact same reasons we as readers don't think Aokiji was trying to kill him. Remember that we're talking about after Aokiji had already attacked.
> 
> This point is moot anyway IMO because I think the delay in Doflamingo breaking out was put there because Oda wanted to dramatize the scene.


Yes, *we* know that Aokji is generally a nice guy and that there was a chance he?d let him off the hook (because *we?ve* seen him let pirates go before). But what reason do we have to assume that *DD himself* would know (with 100% certainty) that a rogue Aokiji wouldn?t harm him in any way *for trying to kill his friend*?

In regards to your B) alternative, outright stating that he could?ve escaped regardless of what he did doesn?t really seem right since we literally saw him being put into a vulnerable state (where he easily could?ve been killed/crippled). Because of this, I think it?s more accurate to say ?Doflamingo _believed _he could escape from Aokiji regardless of what he does?. Just like Crocodile believed he?d be able to kill Whitebeard at MF. Just like Zoro believed he could take on Mihawk at Baratie. Croc and Zoro were confident enough in their abilities to do those things, when in reality, the chances of them succeeding were slim to none (so the same can apply towards DD to some degree).


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## barreltheif (Jul 22, 2014)

Do you, or do you not, believe that when a Logia uses CoA, that makes it harder to connect with their real body?
It's a simple question.

If you don't believe that, then explain what your point was. If you're already explained it, then it shouldn't be hard to do so again. You can just copy and paste your explanation if you like.


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## Kings Disposition (Jul 22, 2014)

Since you can't be bothered with reading the topic:


Kings Disposition said:


> I only said that the CoA guard that Aokiji put up was strong enough to defend against the CoA that WB used at that moment. But since the CoA was successfully defended against, all that?s left was the spear which had a similar effect to Luffy?s attack against Aokiji  (a Haki-less attack that landed, but failed to harm his ?real body").





Kings Disposition said:


> *Now provide a quote of me even remotely suggesting that Haki makes you more 'fluid' or more 'rubbery'.*


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## AlligatorBalls (Jul 23, 2014)

You guys should stop with these WOT.


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## barreltheif (Jul 23, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> I only said that the CoA guard that Aokiji put up was strong enough to defend against the CoA that WB used at that moment. But since the CoA was successfully defended against, all that’s left was the spear which had a similar effect to Luffy’s attack against Aokiji (a Haki-less attack that landed, but failed to harm his “real body").




I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say here. Are you suggesting that using CoA somehow makes your opponent automatically stop using CoA? Because that's not something that CoA can do.


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## Akitō (Jul 23, 2014)

Kings Disposition said:


> You’re making it seem like having his attention on Smoker would’ve significantly impaired him from doing much of anything else or would’ve made him forget to take into consideration that an Admiral was threatening him. DD decided to attack and knew for a fact that Aokiji would retaliate (whether he successfully killed Smoker or not), so him not taking precautions or atleast having a backup plan in mind before attacking Smoker is doubtful. And assuming that DD did those things, it wouldn’t have mattered in the end anyways since he was stopped after barely moving his hand.



Er, how does this contradict anything I said? Him taking precautions doesn't mean that he was using everything he had to fend off Aokiji, nor does it mean he didn't have a backup plan in mind - his backup plan in this case was to just escape from the ice like he did, I think. 

And you have the situations reversed. You're the one who's painting this situation as Doflamingo not being impaired at all in his defense by focusing a large part of his attention on killing Smoker and not even bothering to face Aokiji. All I'm saying is that those two things probably had some sort of impact, and that it's reasonable to believe that if Doflamingo had placed all his focus on fending off Aokiji, things wouldn't have been so clear-cut for Aokiji. 



> You bring up good points about what can happen in actual fighting situation but my post was mostly referring to when you said “that close”. If Aokiji manages to get within range, I highly doubt that DD would be able to avoid the ice wave considering that he didn’t even have enough time to move his hand in a downward motion. Point is, DD would’ve been frozen in that situation whether he was facing Aokiji or not.



How do you know? You're making the assumption that attacking Smoker takes less time than it takes to fend off Aokiji's attack. The only thing Aokiji freezing Doflamingo showed us is that he's faster than Doflamingo and the difference is fairly small. Neither of them had to move much of a distance to hit their enemies - Aokiji just managed to hit his faster. There's no saying how long it takes for Doflamingo to dodge Aokiji's attack, or how long it'd take him to break out of the ice if he was actively trying to defend against Aokiji. 



> And I never said that DD was using the maximum amount of effort to break free from the ice. But it most likely required a considerable amount of effort since it took him a brief moment to do so and he was panting afterwards (Oda showing these things makes it unlikely that this was just for “dramatic effect”).



So if you acknowledge that Doflamingo very well could have not been using his ice-breaking ability to its fullest extent, then can you not acknowledge that Doflamingo very well could escape from it faster (as in, it's a possibility)?  



> Yes, *we* know that Aokji is generally a nice guy and that there was a chance he’d let him off the hook (because *we’ve* seen him let pirates go before). But what reason do we have to assume that *DD himself* would know (with 100% certainty) that a rogue Aokiji wouldn’t harm him in any way *for trying to kill his friend*?



He's a knowledgable man who probably knows of Aokiji's personality. He even knew of Aokiji's shady current proceedings; I don't think it's a stretch at all to assume that he knew about Aokiji's laid-back personality. Furthermore, he can easily see Aokiji's demeanor. The guy has his hands in his pockets and didn't move an inch when he attacked Doflamingo. These are clearly signs of someone who doesn't have killing intent; along with the info that Doflamingo might have on Aokiji, it seems logical for him to think Aokiji wouldn't be trying to kill him. 



> In regards to your B) alternative, outright stating that he could’ve escaped regardless of what he did doesn’t really seem right since we literally saw him being put into a vulnerable state (where he easily could’ve been killed/crippled).



Again, I think this is a moot point because IMO the delay was written for dramatic effect. 



> Because of this, I think it’s more accurate to say “Doflamingo _believed _he could escape from Aokiji regardless of what he does”. Just like Crocodile believed he’d be able to kill Whitebeard at MF. Just like Zoro believed he could take on Mihawk at Baratie. Croc and Zoro were confident enough in their abilities to do those things, when in reality, the chances of them succeeding were slim to none (so the same can apply towards DD to some degree).



The difference is that those characters don't have nearly the same knowledge and awareness that Doflamingo has. This is a guy who we know for a fact is scared of hostile people much stronger than him and who clearly cares for his life. We also know that he's seen the Admirals in action, and that he at least knows the general level of their power (otherwise Law's threat of the Admirals wouldn't have been effective). I just find it extremely unlikely that he'd underrate his level to the extent that a casual Admiral would be able to beat him without much effort in the situation that he was in.


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## Amol (Jul 23, 2014)

Boy this thread went to too many places .


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## Lord Stark (Jul 25, 2014)

blueframe01 said:


> Jozu > Dofla. Based on hype & feats against admirals Jozu fared so much better.
> That matchup would be the deciding factor since the Colored duo would be dead equals.



How do you figure?

Jozu vs. Doflamingo: 
Mingo uses Jozu as a chair.

Mingo vs. Kuzan:
Mingo breaks his ice and walks away unscathed.

Jozu vs. Kuzan:
Jozu loses an arm.  

Doflamingo's feats eclipse Jozu.  Doffy is approaching Marco level imo,


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## Sablés (Jul 25, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> How do you figure?
> 
> Jozu vs. Doflamingo:
> Mingo uses Jozu as a chair.
> ...



Are you some kind of moron?

 Jozu was caught off guard by Doflamingo. Even though:

-CoO is prevalent with top-tiers
-Doflamingo was standing in front of him
-Jozu was using CoA to smash a Logia and thus hardened his defenses
-Was in a war where surprise attacks should be expected 

And Jozu stalemated Kuzan until he was caught off-guard and one-shotted unlike Doflamingo who turned his back from the beginning, got frozen and still broke out anyway

Jozu >>Dofla. Trust me on this, mang. Your reading comprehension is laughably bad


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## barreltheif (Jul 25, 2014)

^Your post is one of the most bizarre posts I've ever read. You argue for Doffy > Jozu for a while, and then out of the blue you turn around and say that Jozu > Dofla.




Sabl?s said:


> Are you some kind of moron?
> 
> Jozu was caught off guard by Doflamingo. Even though:
> 
> ...




So you're saying that Jozu wasn't caught off guard, and Doflamingo beat him completely legitimately? I agree.




> And Jozu stalemated Kuzan until he was caught off-guard and one-shotted unlike Doflamingo who turned his back from the beginning, got frozen and still broke out anyway




So, basically, Dofla looked somewhat better against Aokiji than Jozu did? I agree.
The only thing I disagree with here is your claim that Jozu was caught off-guard. If you're in the middle of a fight and you decide to turn around and are immediately defeated, you weren't caught off guard. You just suck.




> Jozu >>Dofla. Trust me on this, mang. Your reading comprehension is laughably bad




Where the hell did this come from? Why did you devote your whole post to arguing for Doffy if you were just going to change your mind at the end?


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## tanman (Jul 25, 2014)

Sabl?s said:


> Are you some kind of moron?
> 
> Jozu was caught off guard by Doflamingo. Even though:
> 
> ...




This is some kind of strange joke, right?


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## barreltheif (Jul 25, 2014)

Oh LOL that explains a lot.
There are people who say things almost that strange, so I didn't even realize he was joking.


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## tanman (Jul 25, 2014)

Well, I'm not certain myself.
I just know that Sables is normally a pretty solid poster.


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## trance (Jul 25, 2014)

I'm fairly certain Sables is trolling.


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## Sablés (Jul 25, 2014)

Yeah, I was being facetious. 

Although, I wouldn't take Doflamingo's skirmish with Jozu at 100% face value because that would be indicative of the former being able to take down someone who can stall an Admiral with relatively low-difficulty and I think we can all agree that's bullocks. I see it as Oda portraying Doflamingo as the bigger threat when faced unprepared (Parasite has yet to be properly defined after all) but that doesn't completely excuse the feat either as the victim's lack of knowledge is also a strength for users with "hax". 

What I can't understand is that people will go through some intense mental gymnastics to make Jozu's feats seem like the better of the two and provide excuses for why Doflamingo's are illegitimate despite the author placing them in a similar scenario against the same third party and has Doflamingo come out on top. 

Doflamingo's closer to Marco than he is to Jozu if we are to take their respective feats as they stand. Fallacious arguments such as "Luffy will beat him this arc" won't change things considering a large theme Oda's been setting up is "alliance"; Dofla's likely to be taken down by multiple foes. Not like power progression needs to be static in villains anyway.


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## Kaneda30 (Jul 25, 2014)

Aokiji and Jozu win. The key thing is that they have full intel, so Doflamingo shouldn't hax his way to a win or stalemate with Jozu. Without the hax DD is inferior to Jozu.


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## barreltheif (Jul 25, 2014)

The fact that Doflamingo no-diffed Jozu when Jozu had no intel is perfectly indicative of how a fight between Doflamingo and Jozu would go *when they have no intel*. If Jozu had intel, I think he'd push Doflamingo to high diff.


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## GrizzlyClaws (Jul 25, 2014)

If Jozu had intel, he would almost certainly beat Doffy.

If he has no intel he could still beat Doffy _if_ he figures Parasite out mid-fight. It's not like Doffy showed anything so far that might hurt Jozu anyway.


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## Raid3r2010 (Jul 25, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> Location: Marineford
> Intel: Full.
> Mindset: IC.
> Restrictions: None.
> ...



Full Knowledge ? 

Aokiji and JoZu takes this.

Aokiji fight Kizaru equally till JoZu takes care of Doflamingo.For some reason I believe JoZu is far stronger than Doflamingo and that if both have full knowledge on eachother JoZu is just getting advantage in the fight since he's pretty much a brawler and he's not hiding any special abilities like Mingo.

Seeing more of both would  be helpfull though ...


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