# Haruhi Suzumiya vs. Mad Jim Jaspers (616)



## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

VS.




Just to prove a point.


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## Fang (Oct 26, 2007)

Isn't JJM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanos with Infinity Gauntlet?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

I wouldn't say that, but he would certainly have a decent chance of beating an IG wielder


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## Parallax (Oct 26, 2007)

Haruhi can't control her powers.  Jim can.  Gee I wonder who wins this...


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## mystictrunks (Oct 26, 2007)

HARUHI WINS. SHE IS SO CUTE AND HAWT. OMGZ ROFL.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

Parallax said:


> Haruhi can't control her powers.  Jim can.  Gee I wonder who wins this...



Even if she could she would still lose.


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## Blue (Oct 26, 2007)

Dey see Haruhi omnipotentin', dey hatin'


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

Blue said:


> Dey see Haruhi omnipotentin', dey hatin'



Controlling one universe =/= omnipotent


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## Vicious (Oct 26, 2007)

Do we need a "who can beat Haruhi Suzumiya" thread? lol


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## Blue (Oct 26, 2007)

She controls more than one, but okay ~

Also in the absence of a multiverse, universe control is omnipotency. Not every fiction describes a multiverse. Although Haruhi does.


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## mystictrunks (Oct 26, 2007)

Has Haruhi Been Stated To Be Omnipotent?


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## Blue (Oct 26, 2007)

Would Mike have been frustrated enough to make this thread if she hadn't?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

Darkseid and Odin have been stated to be omnipotent, but they're obviously not.

BTW Haruhi has never affected more than one universe.


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## mystictrunks (Oct 26, 2007)

Just Answer The Question.


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## Blue (Oct 26, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> BTW Haruhi has never affected more than one universe.


Btw yeah, she did. Besides the pocket universe - "closed space", which is arguably a part of the same universe, she created an entirely different universe for herself and Kyon and almost deleted the old one.


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## furious styles (Oct 26, 2007)

> The Fury eventually beats Jaspers by transporting him into an interuniversal void (where he couldn't use his reality warping powers since there was no reality to warp) and used Jaspers moment of surprise to fry his brain with a powerful electric shock, but is itself nearly destroyed in the process.



If Haruhi is capable of transporting someone into an alternate uni/dimension, then she can win this. Blue testafies that she has not only done this, but created one as well. In this case I can see her winning, by using essentially the same method as quoted above.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

No she didn't. She almost recreated the original universe in a new form (that's still just manipulating one).

Jaspers was immune to universal nullification and was spreading his warp across the entire omniverse, threatening all of reality.















cheifrocka said:


> If Haruhi is capable of transporting someone into an alternate uni/dimension, then she can win this. Blue testafies that she has not only done this, but created one as well. In this case I can see her winning, by using essentially the same method as quoted above.



There would have to be a nonreality void.... which there isn't. Besides, the Fury was only able to do that since it was immune to Jaspers' powers.


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## Blue (Oct 26, 2007)

She was making a new universe. Itsuki couldn't have still existed if she'd just mashed the old universe into a new one.

Haruhi is tied to creation itself. Even if Jaspers killed her, she'd probably take existence - and Jim - with her.


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## furious styles (Oct 26, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> There would have to be a nonreality void.... which there isn't. Besides, the Fury was only able to do that since it was immune to Jaspers' powers.



1. Fix your images. I'm curious.

2. Who's to say there's not? I'm essentially reading from summaries here, so tell me how the nonreality void came to be created/how they got him there in more detail so I can better analyze?

3. The main problem I see cropping up is that this is a universe warping cosmics battle, which inevitably boil down to who'se universe they're in. Each can't have total control over one universe if they're sharing it.


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## Parallax (Oct 26, 2007)

Blue said:


> She was making a new universe. Itsuki couldn't have still existed if she'd just mashed the old universe into a new one.
> 
> Haruhi is tied to creation itself. Even if Jaspers killed her, she'd probably take existence - and Jim - with her.



There is absolutely no evidence to support your latter claim.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

In order to eliminate 238 Jaspers (a weaker version), Lord Mandragon used the Celestial Nullifier to destroy the 238 universe. 616 Jaspers was immune to this (The Fury was also unharmed). This left a void with no reality for Jaspers to warp when the Fury transported him there. That is completely not an option in this battle, since no such void exists anymore after Wanda's Chaos Wave purged it. Not to mention the Fury only knew to do that because it had been there before (that was its home universe).



Blue said:


> She was making a new universe. Itsuki couldn't have still existed if she'd just mashed the old universe into a new one.



It was a closed space, just a protodimension. Not a real universe until the old one disappeared.



> Haruhi is tied to creation itself. Even if Jaspers killed her, she'd probably take existence - and Jim - with her.



Complete bullshit, not backed up by any canon material whatsoever.

MJJ is immune to universal nullification anyway, and has omniversal power.


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## Blue (Oct 26, 2007)

It's backed by common sense. The Haruhi universe is pretty much her fantasy land. No Haruhi, no fantasy, no universe.


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## Parallax (Oct 26, 2007)

Blue said:


> It's backed by common sense. The Haruhi universe is pretty much her fantasy land. No Haruhi, no fantasy, no universe.



That is not a legitimate argument.  Thank you try again.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

Blue said:


> It's backed by common sense. The Haruhi universe is pretty much her fantasy land. No Haruhi, no fantasy, no universe.



What part of "Jaspers is immune to universal nullification" do you not understand?

Besides, in the books Koizumi said that if she died, the power might just transfer to someone else, or disappear completely.


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## furious styles (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't really see the battle playing out this way though. The personalities of BOTH dictate something other than just "I have control over more omniverses than you do" , "No that's a lie, I know about all omniverses and therefore control everything" ... 

Did you set out to make a battle thread or just to tack on to MJJ's achievements?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

cheifrocka said:


> I don't really see the battle playing out this way though. The personalities of BOTH dictate something other than just "I have control over more omniverses than you do" , "No that's a lie, i know about all omniverses and therefore control everything" ...
> 
> Did you set out to make a battle thread or just to tack on to MJJ's achievements?



Achievements (I.E. feats) are the major component of what determines a battle.

When it comes to feats, Jaspers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Haruhi


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## Blue (Oct 26, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> What part of "Jaspers is immune to universal nullification" do you not understand?
> 
> Besides, in the books Koizumi said that if she died, the power might just transfer to someone else, or disappear completely.



I'm not sure how much faith I'd put in what Koizumi thinks might be the case.

And I wasn't talking about universal nullification. I was talking about The End.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

Blue said:


> I'm not sure how much faith I'd put in what Koizumi thinks might be the case.
> 
> And I wasn't talking about universal nullification. I was talking about The End.



I'd put more faith in it than your fanboyish speculations.

And the end of one universe (which is all she has ever shown the ability to control, period) is nothing to Jaspers. If he wanted he could just recreate it.

In fact he took complete control of the 616 universe, usurped Eternity and all of the other gods and cosmics, and remade it in his own image, while simulatenously spreading his power across the entire omniverse.


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## furious styles (Oct 26, 2007)

Mike, essentially what you're doing is flaming someone for stating their opinion on a battle. That ought to count as a strike against you. Particularly in a thread like this, where you've STATED that you made the thread out of spite and that you HATE the fans of one of the characters. It's a thread between two reality warpers, where _even more_ than normal you're going to get people with differing opinions because there's a lot of grey area. You've done nothing succesfully but made a dick of yourself.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

This isn't a matter of opinion, this is a matter of fact. Show me one feat from Haruhi that compares to throwing the entire Omniverse into chaos.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 26, 2007)

Haruhi is that fictions 'True God'
Just like Kami Tenchi is his fictions 'True God'

Look at it this way, the haruhi omniverse only has one universe.. Just like the Tenchi one only has 12 (instead of infinate ones like it should have)

The Tenchiverse only showed 12 universes, does that mean Kami Tenchi is only omnipotent in 12? not all? The same works with Haruhi, just because this fiction only shows 1 universe, it doesn't if there were more universes in that fiction she wouldn't have total controll.

As Blue said Haruhi is portrayed as the 'Bush burning, Smite people' God through those books, i don't see why MJJ(mutant reality warper) would be a threat to a nigh omnipotent of such a high level.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

So one universe = an omniverse?

WTF are you even talking about?

An omniverse = infinite megaverses, which each = infinite multiverses, which each = infinite universes.

This is absolutely stupid.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 26, 2007)

I know that.

What if the writer doesn't show you more than one, but tells you a character is omnipotent.

Answer this- As a Tenchi fan, do you bebleieve Kami Tenchi was Omnipotent.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

LOL DARKSEID IS OMNIPOTENT


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## Rice Ball (Oct 26, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> LOL DARKSEID IS OMNIPOTENT



I take your refusal to answer as 'I know i'm wrong'
You know the point i'm making, just because comics books have a clear cut structure of power, it doesn't mean every fiction follows that structure.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

She got her power taken from her. She has no feats that put her anywhere near Jaspers.

You have no argument.


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## mystictrunks (Oct 26, 2007)

mystictrunks said:


> Just Answer The Question.



Answer The Question. I don't give a darn About Your E-Beef, Just Tell  me If It Was Stated That She Was Omnipotent Or Not.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

mystictrunks said:


> Answer The Question. I don't give a darn About Your E-Beef, Just Tell  me If It Was Stated That She Was Omnipotent Or Not.



It was stated by other characters (not by the author). Said characters were very limited in their experiences and perceptions of cosmic phenomena.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 26, 2007)

I'd call reset a universe in a instance as pretty funky feat (and beyond anything MJJ has done afaik, hes destroyed a universe but only has control over reality, Haruhi created reality out of nothing)
I've always classed Haruhi in the same league as Pre Retcon beyonder for battledome purposes, nigh omnipotent without omniscience.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

Rice Ball said:


> I'd call reset a universe in a instance as pretty funky feat (and beyond anything MJJ has done afaik, hes destroyed a universe but only has control over reality, Haruhi created reality out of nothing)
> I've always classed Haruhi in the same league as Pre Retcon beyonder for battledome purposes, nigh omnipotent without omniscience.



So destroying and recreating one universe > Taking complete control of the 616 universe (which has its own gods and cosmics), destroying it and remaking it in his image, destroying and conquering universes across the entire omniverse (Omniverse = infinite megaverses, each of which = infinite multiverses, each of which = infinite universes), easily owning Merlyn (the Omniversal guardian who is stronger than universe - level beings), being immune to universal nullification, etc.?

You can't seriously believe that.

Franklin Richards created his own universe out of nothing, no one would seriously say he can beat MJJ.


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## Havoc (Oct 26, 2007)

Isn't Pre-Retcon Beyonder at the same strength as Thanos w/ HOTU?


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## Rice Ball (Oct 26, 2007)

He did it all one universe at a time. Hes basically a top tier reality warper, nothing more.
Franklins ability to create reality out of nothing rather than reshape shows better control, he after all has the potential to be the next Living Tribunal (omniversal judge) so fully unlocked i'd say he's several stages above MJJ.

I'd say Yuki from Haruhi would be a pretty good judge on whats omnipotent or not.



Havoc said:


> Isn't Pre-Retcon Beyonder at the same strength as Thanos w/ HOTU?



Yeah, i'd guess they were around the same.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

Rice Ball said:


> He did it all one universe at a time.



False.

The Jaspers Warp was affecting the entire omniverse. The mere power released when he fought the Fury was endangering the multiverse:





> Hes basically a top tier reality warper, nothing more.



And Haruhi is basically a low - tier reality warper.



> Franklins ability to create reality out of nothing rather than reshape shows better control, he after all has the potential to be the next Living Tribunal (omniversal judge) so fully unlocked i'd say he's several stages above MJJ.



Yet his actual feats put him far below.



> I'd say Yuki from Haruhi would be a pretty good judge on whats omnipotent or not.



I'd say reality is a better judge. Considering she had her powers taken from her.... not to mention Koizumi called her omnipotent, not Yuki.

BTW Odin was called omnipotent by the author in the narration. Doesn't mean he is.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 26, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> False.
> 
> The Jaspers Warp was affecting the entire omniverse. The mere power released when he fought the Fury was endangering the multiverse:



Taking down Merlyn isn't a mass omniversal warp(dispite being being a omniversal guardian), the method he used to beat him wasn't warp either. His clash against Fury seemed pretty contained to me. I might have to reread it when i get home.



Endless Mike said:


> And Haruhi is basically a low - tier reality warper.



Resetting her fiction is hardly a low feat.



Endless Mike said:


> Yet his actual feats put him far below.



As a kid? Yeah unless you count creating reality from nothing far below (which i obviously disagree). Creating reality from nothing > manipulating in my honest oppinion.



Endless Mike said:


> I'd say reality is a better judge. Considering she had her powers taken from her.... not to mention Koizumi called her omnipotent, not Yuki.



Yuki herself is a reality warper, be it a lower scale, yet her race have a massive interest in Haruhi, Koizumi himself is aware of what Yuki is and wouldn't of called haruhi 'God' without good cause.



Endless Mike said:


> BTW Odin was called omnipotent by the author in the narration. Doesn't mean he is.



Understandable, i use the same argument but instead with Thanos, he's called himself Omnipotent 4 times in total. The difference is his own fiction proved him wrong, while nothing in the haruhi books have proved haruhi wrong (yet).


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

Rice Ball said:


> Taking down Merlyn isn't a mass omniversal warp(dispite being being a omniversal guardian), the method he used to beat him wasn't warp either. His clash against Fury seemed pretty contained to me. I might have to reread it when i get home.



Read what Roma was saying.



> Resetting her fiction is hardly a low feat.



It is when it's only one universe.



> As a kid? Yeah unless you count creating reality from nothing far below (which i obviously disagree). Creating reality from nothing > manipulating in my honest oppinion.



Creating one universe <<<<<<<<<<<<< Jaspers.

One Celestial >>>>>> Franklin Richards (canon). Eternity created the Celestials by subconsciously meditating (also canon). Jaspers easily overwhelmed Eternity and took his place.



> Yuki herself is a reality warper, be it a lower scale, yet her race have a massive interest in Haruhi, Koizumi himself is aware of what Yuki is and wouldn't of called haruhi 'God' without good cause.



Because she's the strongest power in that universe, and is unique there. That's why she generates so much interest. In Marvel, such powers are commonplace. If I went back in time 1000 years and demonstrated a bunch of modern technology, people would think I was some kind of godlike being, when today it's nothing special.



> Understandable, i use the same argument but instead with Thanos, he's called himself Omnipotent 4 times in total. The difference is his own fiction proved him wrong, while nothing in the haruhi books have proved haruhi wrong (yet).



Except Yuki taking her powers, and her powers previously belonging to Sasaki (and Kyoko saying how easy it would be to take them away), and the inability to affect other universes, etc. ad nauseum

Of course you've ignored all of these points so far, so why should I expect you to start paying attention to them now?


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## Havoc (Oct 26, 2007)

If anything I think she has relative omnipotence.

Like in FR pocket universe he had "omnipotence".


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

Havoc said:


> If anything I think she has relative omnipotence.
> 
> Like in FR pocket universe he had "omnipotence".



Which isn't going to cut it against Jimmy.


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## Havoc (Oct 26, 2007)

I'm aware of that.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 26, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> Of course you've ignored all of these points so far, so why should I expect you to start paying attention to them now?



Thats a bit harsh 
It works both ways tho!



Endless Mike said:


> Read what Roma was saying.



Will answer this when i get home tonight and read it through again.




Endless Mike said:


> It is when it's only one universe.


And if there is only one universe in a fiction, does that mean an omnipotent being in that fiction is weaker than a omnipotent being in a fiction with a multiverse.



Endless Mike said:


> Creating one universe <<<<<<<<<<<<< Jaspers.
> 
> One Celestial >>>>>> Franklin Richards (canon). Eternity created the Celestials by subconsciously meditating (also canon). Jaspers easily overwhelmed Eternity and took his place.



The part of my debate thats important is Franklin created reality from nothing, this is a power set beyond Jaspers ability. While Jaspers reality manipulation is certinly greater than child franklins, he is missing alot from that normal power set which would allow the new tier up (where i believe Haruhi is) to defeat him.

Current FR is alot weaker than MJJ, i agree with you 100%, as i said before, he has the potential to surpass the LT and become the new omniversal judge.



Endless Mike said:


> Because she's the strongest power in that universe, and is unique there. That's why she generates so much interest. In Marvel, such powers are commonplace. If I went back in time 1000 years and demonstrated a bunch of modern technology, people would think I was some kind of godlike being, when today it's nothing special.



This kinda ties in with the whole 'just because an omniverse isn't shown, it doesn't mean there is one in this fiction'. Look at OUR universe, are we a part of a multiverse or omniverse? 



Endless Mike said:


> Except Yuki taking her powers, and her powers previously belonging to Sasaki (and Kyoko saying how easy it would be to take them away), and the inability to affect other universes, etc. ad nauseum



Might i ask the source for this. If its true its a gap in my knowledge of Haruhi and might cause my impression of her abilities to drop from Omnipotent to Nigh omnipotent


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## Endless Mike (Oct 26, 2007)

Rice Ball said:


> Thats a bit harsh
> It works both ways tho!



I call them as I see them



> Will answer this when i get home tonight and read it through again.



Concession Accepted.



> And if there is only one universe in a fiction, does that mean an omnipotent being in that fiction is weaker than a omnipotent being in a fiction with a multiverse.



Yes, especially if said "omnipotent" being doesn't even know how to use their powers, and can have them taken away.



> The part of my debate thats important is Franklin created reality from nothing, this is a power set beyond Jaspers ability.



Shooting webs is a power set beyond Superman's ability. According to your logic, that means Spider-Man can beat Superman.



> While Jaspers reality manipulation is certinly greater than child franklins, he is missing alot from that normal power set which would allow the new tier up (where i believe Haruhi is) to defeat him.



He's not missing anything, other than the ability to use his powers in null space (which isn't an issue here). He easily defeate Eternity, who created the Celestials, who are >>>>>> Franklin, who created a universe.



> Current FR is alot weaker than MJJ, i agree with you 100%, as i said before, he has the potential to surpass the LT and become the new omniversal judge.



And that version of Franklin might win because he would have better feats. But that version isn't the one we're talking about.



> This kinda ties in with the whole 'just because an omniverse isn't shown, it doesn't mean there is one in this fiction'. Look at OUR universe, are we a part of a multiverse or omniverse?



Non - sequiter and negative proof fallacy.

The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate the existence of a multiverse. 



> Might i ask the source for this. If its true its a gap in my knowledge of Haruhi and might cause my impression of her abilities to drop from Omnipotent to Nigh omnipotent



Novels 4 and 9. The fact that although she wishes for them, no dimensional sliders have shown up (because her power can't reach to other universes).


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## Rice Ball (Oct 26, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> Yes, especially if said "omnipotent" being doesn't even know how to use their powers, and can have them taken away.



So Kami Tenchi isn't Omnipotent? No fictional diety in Manga is Omnipotent? I conceed that Haruhi isn't Omnipotent thanks to the actions in novels 5 to 9 as you have stated below, an omnipotent being can't have its powers stolen and can't have a one before them. 



Endless Mike said:


> Shooting webs is a power set beyond Superman's ability. According to your logic, that means Spider-Man can beat Superman.



Very poor example.
Creating reality from nothing IS a part of the reality warper power set, obviously it takes greater power to create something from nothing than it does to manipulate it.



Endless Mike said:


> He's not missing anything, other than the ability to use his powers in null space (which isn't an issue here). He easily defeate Eternity, who created the Celestials, who are >>>>>> Franklin, who created a universe.



As i said i agree with you.



Endless Mike said:


> And that version of Franklin might win because he would have better feats. But that version isn't the one we're talking about.



As above.



Endless Mike said:


> Non - sequiter and negative proof fallacy.
> 
> The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate the existence of a multiverse.



I didn't intend for you to prove it.
My point was -if there isn't one should it matter? If someone in that fiction is omnipotent it doesn't matter if there are a universe/multiverse/megaverse/omniverse. They are omnipotent in that fiction and all its realities that are shown.
The only difference is Marvel uses these 'thoeries' while other fictions don't.



Endless Mike said:


> Novels 4 and 9. The fact that although she wishes for them, no dimensional sliders have shown up (because her power can't reach to other universes).



I'm not read the novels as it was my impression they aren't translated, if its true then as i have said above she isn't omnipotent. Instead more beyonder style level. Not knowing the full extent of her abilities does put me at a major disadvantage here, if someone could either post a link to a resource or provide feats and weakness's i would be greatful.

<wipes sweat off my brow>


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## Dark Evangel (Oct 26, 2007)

Haruhi's tongue is so hot and I have a tongue fetish.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 26, 2007)

My Haruhi request has been pimped, cheers.


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## Havoc (Oct 26, 2007)

Just like the good ol days


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## Rice Ball (Oct 26, 2007)

Havoc said:


> Just like the good ol days



The pimping or the mike pwning?


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## Havoc (Oct 26, 2007)

lol, the pimping


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## Dark Evangel (Oct 26, 2007)

Rice Ball said:


> The pimping or the mike pwning?


Hey can you send me some sexy Haruhi pictures? I'm a pedo


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## Havoc (Oct 26, 2007)

leafy....please


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## Power16 (Oct 26, 2007)

Good old Jaspers kicking butt.


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## Sylar (Oct 26, 2007)

LOL at Haruhi beating MJJ.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 26, 2007)

Sylar said:


> LOL at Haruhi beating MJJ.



Way to prove otherwise!


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## Blue (Oct 26, 2007)

> I'm not read the novels as it was my impression they aren't translated, if its true then as i have said above she isn't omnipotent. Instead more beyonder style level. Not knowing the full extent of her abilities does put me at a major disadvantage here, if someone could either post a link to a resource or provide feats and weakness's i would be greatful.


Mike's more or less wrong. Yuki indeed took Haruhi's powers, but one might easily assume given the context that's more of a perception thing than actual reality. 

Anyway, linkage.

SasuIno Deviant Art Fan Club


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## Sylar (Oct 26, 2007)

Rice Ball said:


> Way to prove otherwise!



Fine then.

Not only are Haruhi's powers not known to her and not only has she FAILED in getting in other dimension beings to go to her universe, which implies that she can't tamper with things outside her reality, but she can't control her powers well enough to fight someone of MJJ's level.

MJJ was one of the most powerful beings in an omniverse where someone killed half of the universe's population with a thought.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 26, 2007)

Good job characters in the OBD are Bloodlusted and have PIS/CIS removed as a default.


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## Blue (Oct 26, 2007)

> Not only are Haruhi's powers not known to her and not only has she FAILED in getting in other dimension beings to go to her universe


She hasn't. Itsuki is exactly that, a slider. He's also an esper, incidentally.
All of which is how he was able to communicate with Kyon while he was in a separate universe.


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## Sylar (Oct 26, 2007)

Blue said:


> She hasn't. Itsuki is exactly that, a slider. He's also an esper, incidentally.
> All of which is how he was able to communicate with Kyon while he was in a separate universe.



He's just an esper.

Where was he stated to be a slider?



> Good job characters in the OBD are Bloodlusted and have PIS/CIS removed as a default.



Good job if the character doesn't have full mastery of their powers they don't automatically get it as a default.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 26, 2007)

Wouldn't Earth-238 Jaspers be enough for this fight?  His universe's entire time continuum had to be obliterated in order to stop his warp from spreading into other universes, IIRC.  616 Jaspers is horrendous overkill.  This thread is the equivalent of pitting pre-TS Konohamaru against Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Fang (Oct 26, 2007)

MJJ stomps Haruhi. She's over rated. She wasn't able to incorporate things outside of her own reality into her universe. She was contained in her own verse and that's it.


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## Power16 (Oct 26, 2007)

Crimson is right 238 Jaspers would be the better match from what i hear of Haruhi.


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## Parallax (Oct 26, 2007)

Sylar said:


> Fine then.
> 
> Not only are Haruhi's powers not known to her and not only has she FAILED in getting in other dimension beings to go to her universe, which implies that she can't tamper with things outside her reality, but she can't control her powers well enough to fight someone of MJJ's level.
> 
> MJJ was one of the most powerful beings in an omniverse where someone killed half of the universe's population with a thought.





Shiroi Kiba said:


> MJJ stomps Haruhi. She's over rated. She wasn't able to incorporate things outside of her own reality into her universe. She was contained in her own verse and that's it.



These are always the 2 points that people seem to forget about Haruhi it seems...


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## Chocochip (Oct 27, 2007)

Rice Ball said:


> He did it all one universe at a time. Hes basically a top tier reality warper, nothing more.
> Franklins ability to create reality out of nothing rather than reshape shows better control, he after all has the potential to be the next Living Tribunal (omniversal judge) so fully unlocked i'd say he's several stages above MJJ.
> 
> I'd say Yuki from Haruhi would be a pretty good judge on whats omnipotent or not.
> ...



lol fallacy at its greatest. Pretty much people assume that one universe=omniverse feats.

I know she might have them okay fine. Battledome rules state that until characters SHOWN to have a feat, they are assumed to not. Haruhi has never shown the capabiltiy to take over two universes or more, so NO stop making imaginary abilities and possibilities just because she is cute.


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## Fulong (Oct 27, 2007)

The ONLY AND ONLY WAY FOR Haruhi to actually win was to...pull 'The Fury'. What's 'The Fury'? Oh that's a little trick call dumping Mad Jim into an *'unreality' pock-verse* or simply a void because Mad Jim can't create stuff out of thin air lulz.



I lulz at Mad Jim being OWNED.

Other than that, Haruhi just fail for being too stupid to unable to know her power. so Haruhi fails 9/10.


----------



## Havoc (Oct 27, 2007)

MJJ should have still be able to alter himself.

Someone didn't think that through.




Besides Haruhi can't do that, so...


----------



## Rice Ball (Oct 27, 2007)

thegoodjae said:


> lol fallacy at its greatest. Pretty much people assume that one universe=omniverse feats.
> 
> I know she might have them okay fine. Battledome rules state that until characters SHOWN to have a feat, they are assumed to not. Haruhi has never shown the capabiltiy to take over two universes or more, so NO stop making imaginary abilities and possibilities just because she is cute.



Did you quote the wrong thread?
How annoying is it when someone quotes something mid debate and asks a question i have already answered.


----------



## Chocochip (Oct 27, 2007)

No, I quote the wrong quote. Still, you pretty much proved nothing besides there being a possibility tha Haruhi might be able to control more than one universe. AS far as brining someone out of the realm of reality and being able to threat and omniverse or even a multiverse is out of the question.

It is a fallacy giving her those powers when she never displayed it. She might be able to, if given the situation, but she isn't. So no.


----------



## Rice Ball (Oct 27, 2007)

Mike still hasn't come up with a answer for what i asked, i doubt you will either.

Is Kami Sama Tenchi Omnipotent?


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 27, 2007)

I think the author states that Tenchi is pretty much omnipotent.


----------



## mfair4d (Oct 27, 2007)

Here's a question for you non-haruhi devotes:
Isn't Kyon a slider?
Has there been any event at all that has not worked out in Haruhi's/Kyon's best interest. 
I haven't read all of book 9, or book 10 (for obvious reasons), but i have yet to see haruhi ever really get even upset, let alone harmed.  

The way i see it even if the haruhi deity (i am not convinced haruhi is god, i can easily see kyon being the true haruhi, if you know what i mean) can't do anything to you, the can simply create an identical universe, where the thing they were fighting doesn't exist.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 27, 2007)

So they basically run away?


----------



## Fang (Oct 27, 2007)

Kyon is an Esper, not a Slider.


----------



## mfair4d (Oct 27, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Kyon is an Esper, not a Slider.



He has ESP?


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 27, 2007)

You people are honestly reaching a jplaya level of stupidity. I'm serious.

Take a look at these two arguments:

1. "Haruhi was stated to be God, so Haruhi > Jaspers"

2. "Itachi cannot be beaten by anyone without a Sharingan, so Itachi > Galactus"

Notice anything familiar?


----------



## mystictrunks (Oct 27, 2007)

How can Haruhi be omnipotent if she's both failed to do things, and lost her powers?


----------



## Power16 (Oct 27, 2007)

I think it was one of the characters that stated her omnipotence and on panel evidence contradicted those statements. Anyways, there's nothing she can do to defeat MJJ.


----------



## Chocochip (Oct 28, 2007)

Rice Ball said:


> Mike still hasn't come up with a answer for what i asked, i doubt you will either.
> 
> Is Kami Sama Tenchi Omnipotent?



In his verse he is believed to be. Omnipotent has different standards due to a limit to a verse. Haruhi is omnipotent in her verse because she owns it, and there is nothing greater and nothing she can't control and nothing exist out of her reach.

MJJ is a nigh-omnipotent in his omniverse. A verse where a normal omnipotent would be considered just a reality warper due to the omniverse it self be not omnipotent, but having characteristrics infinitely greater than a universe or multiverse has, which usually is what normal omnipotents feats are based off to consider them an omnipotent in the first place. When they face something that is infinitely greater than what they usually deal with, a universe, the omnis usually cancel out, like usual reality warpers that can only deal with mutliverses or a universe easily, can not handle the infinite amount of universes. Take the omnis out and you get potent=universe.

In other words, there are a bunch of people who would be considered omnipotent in Haruhi's verse or Tenchi's verse, who is only considered a person who shifts reality of universes at will.

Mad Jim Jaspers though, is one of the few select people above all that and actually threatens the whole omniverse itself, and it seems, as loing as he is within reality, there is no way to affect him or his powers in anyways, even other "omnipotents of a universe"-like characters can not touch him.

Actually, what killed him in the first place was a creation he made in a universe, that traveled to another universe he created as he wanted, that thought Mad Jim Jaspers wasn't the same so it sent out to kill Mad Jim Jaspers. It, Mam Jim Jasper's own creation, had the power to actually bring him out of reality(which means somehow bring him out of an omniverse), and kill him. The whole omniverse is his weapon and without it, he was useless.

I hope this is a decent answer to your question


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 28, 2007)

Kami Tenchi never had his powers stolen from him, and isn't limited to one universe.


----------



## Fang (Oct 28, 2007)

Do the 11 Dimensions each count as a seperate reality from one another?


----------



## Lord Yu (Oct 28, 2007)

I for one believe in the theory that Kyon is actually God and is projecting his power onto Haruhi.


----------



## Chocochip (Oct 28, 2007)

No, not if you want to go by the omniverse rule.

I mean, each universe should be a different dimension or else they would be considered the same universe since a universe is infinite and the only way to have another type of universe is having difference, or in this case dimensions.

It is just pretty much 12 different universes or a similar concept.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 28, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Do the 11 Dimensions each count as a seperate reality from one another?



Yes, each is a universe, the hyperdimension is a larger reality that encompasses them all. The third dimension is the universe of earth (normal type universe), each one is so far more complex than the last that it can't be percieved or understood by beings of the previous dimension.


----------



## Chocochip (Oct 28, 2007)

Well they are different types of reality, but still reality. MJJ has to be somehow pulled out of reality.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 28, 2007)

Yes but this is getting off topic. Bringing up Tenchi is a red herring


----------



## Fang (Oct 28, 2007)

Tenchi's feats are way above Haruhi's in any case.


----------



## Chocochip (Oct 28, 2007)

Yes yet below MJJ. I see no reason why he is even in here.


----------



## Power16 (Oct 28, 2007)

On the MJJ thing being pulled out of reality isn't going to change things for his opponent just less stuff for him to work with. He can still warp his opponent or his body, hence Harushi has nothing to stop MJJ.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 28, 2007)

And this isn't even mentioning Merged Jaspers


----------



## Red (Oct 28, 2007)

Omnipotence by it's very nature is all powerful regardless of whether or not it effects one universe or two or a hundred. If Haruhi has been stated to be omnipotent then she is. If not then she isn't it's as simple as that.

The argument that she could only effect one universe is unfair really seeing as she only has one universe to toy with. If we use that logic then "The One" isn't omnipotent because he only effects three universes out of the three he has.

The other problem is bringing up things she couldn't do, Haruhi's power is omnipotence not omniscience, she doesn't know how control her powers and that is her limit, that is the reason for all her short comings in the novel. But seeing as this is the OBD and CIS is not in effect it makes no difference in this battle.

And also is dis sum bait thread


----------



## Havoc (Oct 28, 2007)

Not knowing how to control your powers isn't CIS.

If someone can't control their powers in the source material, since when do we make them able to in OB fights?


----------



## Fang (Oct 28, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> Omnipotence by it's very nature is all powerful regardless of whether or not it effects one universe or two or a hundred. If Haruhi has been stated to be omnipotent then she is. If not then she isn't it's as simple as that.
> 
> The argument that she could only effect one universe is unfair really seeing as she only has one universe to toy with. If we use that logic then "The One" isn't omnipotent because he only effects three universes out of the three he has.
> 
> ...



If you have your powers taken away from and your contained in your own universe and reality, your defiently not omnipotent unlike...say Kami Tenchi.


----------



## Red (Oct 28, 2007)

Havoc said:


> Not knowing how to control your powers isn't CIS.
> 
> If someone can't control their powers in the source material, since when do we make them able to in OB fights?


she'll lose because she's not aware of her powers not because of what some guys are saying here.



Shiroi Kiba said:


> If you have your powers taken away from and your contained in your own universe and reality, your defiently not omnipotent unlike...say Kami Tenchi.


She's omnipotent not omniscience, If you're not even aware of your powers it's easy for say an interface of the data whatchamacallit to steal your powers and use it to recreate stuff. She's limited by her knowledge nothing more.


----------



## Fang (Oct 28, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> She's omnipotent not omniscience, If you're not even aware of your powers it's easy for say an interface of the data whatchamacallit to steal your powers and use it to recreate stuff. She's limited by her knowledge nothing more.



Your only convicing me even more so she doesn't come close to being omnipotent. And omniscence isn't determind by knowning your own powers.


----------



## Coaxmetal (Oct 28, 2007)

Haruhi has breasts

Breasts>>>>>>>>>>>No Breasts

Haruhi's breasts win this fight.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 28, 2007)

Don't forget these reasons:


mystictrunks said:


> HARUHI WINS. SHE IS SO CUTE AND HAWT. OMGZ ROFL.


----------



## Red (Oct 28, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Your only convicing me even more so she doesn't come close to being omnipotent. And omniscence isn't determind by knowning your own powers.


She created the universe and recreates it without conscious effort if thats not close to being omnipotent for you then I should just give up now.


----------



## Fang (Oct 28, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> She created the universe and recreates it without conscious effort if thats not close to being omnipotent for you then I should just give up now.



Mad Jaspers is threat to the Omniverse.

Infinite universes < Infinite Multiverses < Omniverse.


----------



## ??PR?ŞŞ?? (Oct 28, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> She created the universe and recreates it without conscious effort if thats not close to being omnipotent for you then I should just give up now.



Well, I've heard of other reality warpers creating universes before. They certainly were not omnipotent.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 28, 2007)

Such as Franklin Richards.  Anyway, MJJ respect time!

If that doesn't end this thread, I don't know what to say.


----------



## Red (Oct 28, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Mad Jaspers is threat to the Omniverse.
> 
> Infinite universes < Infinite Multiverses < Omniverse.


She is Omnipotent, it is stated in the light novels and if you are Omnipotent you can do _anything._ Thats the very nature of the title. I don't get why people bring up MJJ and Omniverse like it's detracting anything from haruhi's title.


----------



## Fang (Oct 28, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> She is Omnipotent, it is stated in the light novels and if you are Omnipotent you can do _anything._ Thats the very nature of the title. I don't get why people bring up MJJ and Omniverse like it's detracting anything from haruhi's title.



Omnipotents don't lose their powers. Omnipotents are restricted to their own reality and a single universe.


----------



## Power16 (Oct 28, 2007)

So is she stated to be Omnipotent or not. What i mean by that is, did the author say she is omnipotent not just some character who believe she is and can't really prove it. On this omnipotent case what do you guys define it as a Supreme being or Infinite power because the latter is chack full of marvel beings.


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## Vicious (Oct 28, 2007)

Just like Thanos with IG being omnipotent, though the whole time he was being played by a being higher then him or was that someone else?


----------



## Power16 (Oct 28, 2007)

That was Thanos with HOTU. With the IG he was said to be Omnipotent but LT was a notch above. Marvel and their crazy ideas.


----------



## Fulong (Oct 28, 2007)

Power16 said:


> On the MJJ thing being pulled out of reality isn't going to change things for his opponent just less stuff for him to work with. He can still warp his opponent or his body, hence Harushi has nothing to stop MJJ.



Right...so why didn't he owned the Fury? oh that's right he was too busy getting 'owned' by Marvel 'Amazo'.


----------



## Power16 (Oct 28, 2007)

Fury is immune to Warping which is why MJJ had to battle it by transforming to various beast and when it got transported to Un-Space it had less to work with and some PIS on his part for still not fighting by warping himself (guess he knew he wouldn't last or the story needed an end). edit: Fury packs more heat than Amazo and he survived the CN which is Universal Nullification so his durability is beyond universal.


----------



## Red (Oct 28, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Omnipotents don't lose their powers. Omnipotents are restricted to their own reality and a single universe.


Jesus did 

In all seriousness being omnipotent does not mean you cannot forsake your power. Thanos at one arc was omnipotent and he gave up that power to recreate the universe. And yes omnipotents are restricted to the world the author makes.

This is why I hate arguing in a battle with people who are all powerful. Instead of arguing about who would win, we argue about what constitutes all powerful.


----------



## Fang (Oct 28, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> Jesus did



I don't give a shit about Christainity FYI.



> In all seriousness being omnipotent does not mean you cannot forsake your power. Thanos at one arc was omnipotent and he gave up that power to recreate the universe. And yes omnipotents are restricted to the world the author makes.



The IG made Thanos nearly omnipotent but he never was truely omnipotent.



> This is why I hate arguing in a battle with people who are all powerful. Instead of arguing about who would win, we argue about what constitutes all powerful.



Well sadly every single feat of MJJ is well beyond everything Haruhi has shown and done. And he isn't omnipotent.


----------



## Fulong (Oct 28, 2007)

Power16 said:


> Fury is immune to Warping which is why MJJ had to battle it by transforming to various beast and when it got transported to Un-Space it had less to work with and some PIS on his part for still not fighting by warping himself (guess he knew he wouldn't last or the story needed an end). edit: *Fury packs more heat than Amazo* and he survived the CN which is Universal Nullification so his durability is beyond universal.



Pack...more heat? In my opinion Amazo and Fury are the same, and they stalemate each other. I won't and WILL NOT believe that Fury can take 6/10. Amazo and Fury split it with 5/10. You have to marvel biased to believe that Fury can beat Amazo.


----------



## Power16 (Oct 28, 2007)

I said packs more heat as in at the start he is already stronger but Amazo ability will even it out and it's a never ending cycle of adapting to each other. I never said who win in a match now, did I?


----------



## Fulong (Oct 28, 2007)

Fury never pack more heat than Amazo, they're literally the fucking same.


----------



## Power16 (Oct 28, 2007)

I have said what i needed and answered your question so i'm good...


----------



## Fulong (Oct 28, 2007)

Well I still think that Amazo could probably pull off what Fury did to MMJ.


----------



## Power16 (Oct 28, 2007)

Wouldn't he just copy MJJ and duke it out forever unless he becomes immune to warping, i'm not so sure.


----------



## Fulong (Oct 28, 2007)

If Fury is immune to reality warping, I'm pretty sure that Amazo is immune to reality warping as well.


----------



## Power16 (Oct 28, 2007)

Huh, that makes no sense their not the same character and they have different powersets. Fury after absorbing that cave size computer and after his scuffle with MJJ became immune to warping which is mentioned in both their official bio's.


----------



## Havoc (Oct 28, 2007)

Fulong are you using JLU Amazo?

Comic Amazo isn't as strong.


----------



## Chocochip (Oct 28, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> She is Omnipotent, it is stated in the light novels and if you are Omnipotent you can do _anything._ Thats the very nature of the title. I don't get why people bring up MJJ and Omniverse like it's detracting anything from haruhi's title.



I already explained this. Go back to page 5 and read how the word "omnipotence" varies in each verse.

Tenchi would be omnipotent in Haruhis verse, MJJ too, and alot of other people. None reason omnipotent or even nigh-omnipotent(except MJJ) in the omniverse. I explained it.


----------



## Tuxx (Oct 28, 2007)

Where does it state that Mad Jim Jaspers was omnipotent at all?  I don't think even the databook for him, has him under omnipotent.  MJJ would lose to a supreme being, it's simple as that.  

It's like putting him up against supreme beings like TOAA or Presence.  No matter how vastly his reality warping is, he cannot stand up to supreme beings, period.  And iirc, The Fury, teleported MJJ back to where it came from, the Earth-238 universe, which was destroyed.  That was "un-space"  MJJ needs clay if you want to call it, to mold his powers.  He needs reality to warp.  No reality = no powers for him.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Oct 28, 2007)

Haruhi's Author decided not to get silly like Marvel and create convaluted terms like multiverse and omniverse. Haruhi verse stuck to the concept of universe simply being everything and anything, as a universe should be.
Haruhi can screw with the universe; that is to say she can screw with anything.
Garbage like abstracts and multiverse just undermine the term universe. Everyone who doesn't have completle control over all those funkyass break-ups in marvel is weaker then Haruhi. Universe as a concept means everything/anything and it's bullcock to say otherwise because of marvels make belief.
*Haruhi is the queen. Haruhi wins. *

edit: Bring in Toaa for a stalemate.


----------



## Fang (Oct 28, 2007)

Mocktrust-Ignis said:


> Haruhi's Author decided not to get silly like Marvel and create convaluted terms like multiverse and omniverse. Haruhi verse stuck to the concept of universe simply being everything and anything, as a universe should be.
> Haruhi can screw with the universe; that is to say she can screw with anything.
> Garbage like abstracts and multiverse just undermine the term universe. Everyone who doesn't have completle control over all those funkyass break-ups in marvel is weaker then Haruhi. Universe as a concept means everything/anything and it's bullcock to say otherwise because of marvels make belief.
> *Haruhi is the queen. Haruhi wins. *



Gods don't get their powers restricted, contained or taken away. Nor do they get limited to a singular reality and universe.

If Haruhi is Queen, the MJJ is the God-Emperor.


----------



## Azure Flame Fright (Oct 29, 2007)

I am a warped reality and by thus immune to reality warping.
What does this mean?
Means I win


----------



## mfair4d (Oct 29, 2007)

MJJ or anyone else merely exists because Haruhi wants them to exist.  If she didn't they wouldn't.  
The only way to beat haruhi is to be more powerful than omnipotent people.  I have knowledge of only one fictional character who is.


----------



## Red (Oct 29, 2007)

thegoodjae said:


> I already explained this. Go back to page 5 and read how the word "omnipotence" varies in each verse.
> 
> Tenchi would be omnipotent in Haruhis verse, MJJ too, and alot of other people. None reason omnipotent or even nigh-omnipotent(except MJJ) in the omniverse. I explained it.


I read it. You're saying it's relative and I'm saying it's not.

She hasn't been shown to have a limit on her power therefore she has none and that supports her Omnipotent title.


----------



## mfair4d (Oct 29, 2007)

If Tenchi is so omnipotent, then how come he overpowers some omnipotent people?  (I cannot hypothesizes why i am stating this here)


----------



## Vicious (Oct 29, 2007)

Because they werent Omnipotent?


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 29, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> Omnipotence by it's very nature is all powerful regardless of whether or not it effects one universe or two or a hundred. If Haruhi has been stated to be omnipotent then she is. If not then she isn't it's as simple as that.
> 
> The argument that she could only effect one universe is unfair really seeing as she only has one universe to toy with. If we use that logic then "The One" isn't omnipotent because he only effects three universes out of the three he has.
> 
> ...



Omnipotence = all power. Being limited to one universe (or limited in any way) disproves omnipotence.



Mr.Despair said:


> She's omnipotent not omniscience, If you're not even aware of your powers it's easy for say an interface of the data whatchamacallit to steal your powers and use it to recreate stuff. She's limited by her knowledge nothing more.



"Omniscience is a necessary corollary of Omnipotence" - Dr. Doom



Mr.Despair said:


> She created the universe and recreates it without conscious effort if thats not close to being omnipotent for you then I should just give up now.



Considering people like Franklin Richards and Enrico Pucci can do that too, no it's  not.

Even 666 Satan has a method of doing that.



Mr.Despair said:


> She is Omnipotent, it is stated in the light novels and if you are Omnipotent you can do _anything._ Thats the very nature of the title. I don't get why people bring up MJJ and Omniverse like it's detracting anything from haruhi's title.



It's stated by other characters, who were proven wrong.

Darkseid and Odin were stated to be omnipotent, yet they're not.



Power16 said:


> So is she stated to be Omnipotent or not. What i mean by that is, did the author say she is omnipotent not just some character who believe she is and can't really prove it. On this omnipotent case what do you guys define it as a Supreme being or Infinite power because the latter is chack full of marvel beings.



A character said it.

It holds no more weight than "Cell can destroy the solar system" or "No one can beat Itachi without a sharingan"



Mr.Despair said:


> Jesus did
> 
> In all seriousness being omnipotent does not mean you cannot forsake your power. Thanos at one arc was omnipotent and he gave up that power to recreate the universe. And yes omnipotents are restricted to the world the author makes.
> 
> This is why I hate arguing in a battle with people who are all powerful. Instead of arguing about who would win, we argue about what constitutes all powerful.



Her power was *taken from her against her will.
*



Havoc said:


> Fulong are you using JLU Amazo?
> 
> Comic Amazo isn't as strong.



Yes he is, in fact he's stronger (when he absorbed the Warlogog).



Tuxx said:


> Where does it state that Mad Jim Jaspers was omnipotent at all?  I don't think even the databook for him, has him under omnipotent.  MJJ would lose to a supreme being, it's simple as that.
> 
> It's like putting him up against supreme beings like TOAA or Presence.  No matter how vastly his reality warping is, he cannot stand up to supreme beings, period.  And iirc, The Fury, teleported MJJ back to where it came from, the Earth-238 universe, which was destroyed.  That was "un-space"  MJJ needs clay if you want to call it, to mold his powers.  He needs reality to warp.  No reality = no powers for him.



TOAA and the Presence aren't limited to a single universe.

TOAA and the Presence aren't ignorant of their powers.

TOAA and the Presence never had their powers taken from them.



Mocktrust-Ignis said:


> Haruhi's Author decided not to get silly like Marvel and create convaluted terms like multiverse and omniverse. Haruhi verse stuck to the concept of universe simply being everything and anything, as a universe should be.
> Haruhi can screw with the universe; that is to say she can screw with anything.
> Garbage like abstracts and multiverse just undermine the term universe. Everyone who doesn't have completle control over all those funkyass break-ups in marvel is weaker then Haruhi. Universe as a concept means everything/anything and it's bullcock to say otherwise because of marvels make belief.
> *Haruhi is the queen. Haruhi wins. *
> ...



What a fucktarded argument.

"Kishimoto decided not to get silly like Star Wars and create convoluted terms like space combat and planet busting. Narutoverse stuck to the concept of having the story just on Earth, like a story should be. Naruto characters can beat people on the ground, therefore they can beat people anywhere. Garbage like starships and Death Stars just undermine the term world. Everyone who doesn't have a sharingan in Star Wars is weaker than Itachi."



mfair4d said:


> MJJ or anyone else merely exists because Haruhi wants them to exist.  If she didn't they wouldn't.
> The only way to beat haruhi is to be more powerful than omnipotent people.
> I have knowledge of only one fictional character who is.



MJJ exists outside the omniverse. Haruhi is limited to one universe.

HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN THIS!?

MJJ conquered countless universes and easily defeated/displaced their "Gods". Reality warpers with feats and abilities far beyond anything Haruhi ever demonstrated were nothing to him.



Mr.Despair said:


> I read it. You're saying it's relative and I'm saying it's not.
> 
> She hasn't been shown to have a limit on her power therefore she has none and that supports her Omnipotent title.



Except she can't affect other universes, she doesn't know how to use her power, she had her power taken from her....



mfair4d said:


> If Tenchi is so omnipotent, then how come he overpowers some omnipotent people?  (I cannot hypothesizes why i am stating this here)



That doesn't even make sense.


----------



## Red (Oct 29, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> Except she can't affect other universes, she doesn't know how to use her power, she had her power taken from her....


Why are you using plurals where a plural shouldn't be? She effected only her universe not because she's restricted to hers but because hers is the only verse there.



Endless Mike said:


> Her power was *taken from her against her will.
> *


How can she have her powers taken from her against her will when she doesn't even know she had powers? Wouldn't knowledge be a prerequisite for consent?



Endless Mike said:


> It's stated by other characters, who were proven wrong.
> 
> Darkseid and Odin were stated to be omnipotent, yet they're not.


The difference between odin/darkseid and haruhi is that they (odin/Darkseid) have been proven otherwise while haruhi hasn't, apart from being taken advantage a couple of times she has never been denied. Ever.



Endless Mike said:


> "Omniscience is a necessary corollary of Omnipotence" - Dr. Doom


 Limitless power has nothing to do with knowledge, Theres a big difference between " I can do something but I don't know how"(Omnipotence with out the science) and "I can't do it but I know how" (Omniscience)


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 29, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> Why are you using plurals where a plural shouldn't be? She effected only her universe not because she's restricted to hers but because hers is the only verse there.



Yet she wishes for the existence of others (but is unable to make that happen).



> How can she have her powers taken from her against her will when she doesn't even know she had powers? Wouldn't knowledge be a prerequisite for consent?



No, because an omnipotent being, by definition, can't be harmed/depowered by another being unless they allow it. There's no such thing as omnipotence without omniscience.



> The difference between odin/darkseid and haruhi is that they (odin/Darkseid) have been proven otherwise while haruhi hasn't, apart from being taken advantage a couple of times she has never been denied. Ever.



Wow, this is rich. "She's never been beaten, except for the times she was".





> Limitless power has nothing to do with knowledge, Theres a big difference between " I can do something but I don't know how"(Omnipotence with out the science) and "I can't do it but I know how" (Omniscience)



Omnipotence =/= limitless power.

Omnipotence = limitless _ability_.

That includes the ability to know, understand, and percieve everything.


----------



## Red (Oct 29, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> Yet she wishes for the existence of others (but is unable to make that happen).


 You are being vague here. Last I checked she wished for espers, time travelers and aliens and thats exactly what she got.




> Wow, this is rich. "She's never been beaten, except for the times she was".


Thats not what I meant. I meant "She's never been beaten because she's powerless, she's been beaten because she's ignorant" and thats a big difference here.



> No, because an omnipotent being, by definition, can't be harmed/depowered by another being unless they allow it. There's no such thing as omnipotence without omniscience.





> Omnipotence =/= limitless power.
> 
> Omnipotence = limitless _ability_.
> 
> That includes the ability to know, understand, and percieve everything.


what definition is that? because what I'm reading here is different

om·nip·o·tent      /ɒmˈnɪpətənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[om-*nip*-_uh_-t_uh_nt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective  1.almighty or infinite in power, as God.   2.having very great or unlimited authority or power.   –noun  3.an omnipotent being.   4.the Omnipotent,    
[Origin: 1275–1325; ME < L _omnipotent-_ (s. of _omnipoténs_), equiv. to _omni-_  + _potent-_ (see 1)] 

—Related formsom·nip·o·tent·ly, adverb  

—Synonyms *2.* powerful, mighty, supreme.
—Antonyms *2.* impotent, powerless, helpless.

Nothing in the official definition says anything about ability or knowledge. Neither am I seeing "to understand" there.


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## Ippy (Oct 29, 2007)

Don't post 12x in a row ever again.

The edit and multiquote buttons are your friends.

Use them.


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## Vicious (Oct 29, 2007)

Haruhi is only a omnipotent in one universe-she is restricted to 1 only, not a multiverse she is nowhere near a true omnipotent.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 29, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> You are being vague here. Last I checked she wished for espers, time travelers and aliens and thats exactly what she got.



She wished for espers, time travellers, aliens, and *dimensional sliders.*

The latter never showed up.

Why?

*BECAUSE SHE CAN'T AFFECT OTHER UNIVERSES.*

Thank you and goodnight.



> Thats not what I meant. I meant "She's never been beaten because she's powerless, she's been beaten because she's ignorant" and thats a big difference here.



Both of which are disproof of omnipotence.

what definition is that? because what I'm reading here is different



> Nothing in the official definition says anything about ability or knowledge. Neither am I seeing "to understand" there.



*sigh*

If you have "infinite power" you can release/control infinite amounts of energy.

If you have "infinite ability" you can do literally anything, like change the definition of "infinite power" to "no power".

A being with Infinity Ability will always defeat a being with merely Infinite Power.

Kosmos and Kubik explained that even though they both had "infinite power" the Celestials were above them, because some infinities were greater than others.


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## Tuxx (Oct 29, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> TOAA and the Presence aren't limited to a single universe.
> 
> TOAA and the Presence aren't ignorant of their powers.
> 
> TOAA and the Presence never had their powers taken from them.



Well I hope not, being the supreme being for Marvel and DC. .  I'm just pointing out that MJJ isn't omnipotent, and I think it's wrong to label him as one is all.



Complete omnipotency vs complete omniscience?  Ugh, forget this conundrum...  to many different views to take on.   It's almost as complicated as can an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy paradox.  But this is fictional omnipotent we're talking about...so, meh.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 29, 2007)

I never said MJJ was omnipotent. He doesn't need to be. He already has much better feats than Haruhi does, and much better showings of power.

The only argument anyone has for Haruhi winning is that Koizumi called her omnipotent.

I've repeatedly pointed out over and over again how this has been disproven by actual events, as well as the fact that Koizumi later revised his opinion (of course the response to that was "Koizumi isn't reliable" - O RLY, then why does your argument rely on *WHAT HE SAID IN THE FIRST PLACE!?*).

This is the exact same logic used by jplaya when he says Itachi can beat Galactus because Galactus doesn't have a Sharingan. Why can you so easily see what is wrong with that but not what is wrong with this?


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## Tuxx (Oct 29, 2007)

Oh, course, well...I was responding to thegoodjae it seems.  That part is true.

I never took side on Haruhi at all. ><  More like I can't yet...barely even finish reading it over at BT.

Yes, I see it.  Well, I'll know soon. ><  But with whats been said about her, then it'd be likely true.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 29, 2007)

Alot of the people posting 'Haruhi isn't omnipotent' have terrible double standards.

Take these examples-



> Haruhi hasn't shown any feats outside her own universe



Kami Tenchi only showed his feats for 12 universes, is he below Jaspers?
Just because a fiction doesn't have the same 'layout' as marvel, it doesn't mean marvel layout is what we base everything from.

Pre Retcon beyonder didn't show any feats outside the 616 universe, but he had the omniversal judge on his knee's.



> Just because the writer says shes god, it doesn't mean its true, take Thanos and Darkseid for example



Have you ever seen TOAA do anything apart from paint a picture? Hes been mentioned by various characters as 'god' but has ZERO feats to back it up, but hes commonly accepted by almost every debater as omnipotent.
Don't get me started on the presence, how can something that has a equal be omnipotent.

Mike did alert me to several things that Haruhi had done that contradicts her being omnipotent, such as having her power stolen. Haruhi doesn't have Omniscience, shes basically pre retcon beyonder with less understanding of what she was. If she didn't suffer from CIS (AKA if she was fighting in the OBD) she would be full on god.


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## Power16 (Oct 29, 2007)

Wait, Classic Beyonder only effected the 616 verse, i was sure he effected all of Marvel which was Multiverse back then.

TOAA has had appearances in Fantastic Four issues, i saw some pics at KMC and it supposedly show why he is supreme in Marvel by the way he view the characters and all. edit: Another reason why TOOA can be accepted is that LT is said to be All Powerful(all three Omni) in the comics and official bios but he mentions force beyond and greater than his. I don't see how Harushi can even be compare to Beyonder from his feats to what was stated about him by characters and the writers. 
The Presence thing i can't deny but they merged and are now one being so it's all good.


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## Havoc (Oct 29, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> Yes he is, in fact he's stronger (when he absorbed the Warlogog).



Happened in Elseworlds comic.




This one is not as strong as JLU Amazo.


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## Blue (Oct 29, 2007)

If someone wanted to mention the fact that Haruhi doesn't know her omnipotence from her ass, I'd be very inclined to agree that any reality warper (or really, even a dude with a gun) has a good chance to take her down (although what happens after that could be disastrous). 

But everyone is concentrating on this omniversal tripe.

First, there's plenty of evidence Haruhi can control (and, in fact, created) more than one universe. People choose to ignore this, saying it was the same universe. Very unlikely.

Second, as Rice mentioned, there have been a lot of ridiculously omnipotent characters who never left their universe.
Does this mean they can't? In the context of their universe, quite possibly. There may only be their one universe. They're still omnipotent, meaning if were there more universes, they could control them.

It's not a no-limits fallacy, and you guys are feigning intellectualism poorly by throwing it around.

In fact, here's a fun experiment. Type "no-limits fallacy" into Google, see what shows up. You might be surprised.


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## Red (Oct 29, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> She wished for espers, time travellers, aliens, and *dimensional sliders.*
> 
> The latter never showed up.
> 
> ...


Or because _*THERE ARE NO OTHER UNIVERSES TO EFFECT*_ did that idea ever occur to you? 




> Both of which are disproof of omnipotence.


No it doesn't. They obviously carry different intonations. The first one implies that she was *Over powered* the second one means that she was *Out smarted*
One is proof of her not being Omnipotent the other is proof of her not being omniscient. She was outsmarted and thats obvious.
 





> *sigh*
> 
> If you have "infinite power" you can release/control infinite amounts of energy.
> 
> ...


Translation: "hey why don't I make up my own definition to use an debate, maybe if I'll repeat it enough times people will think I'm right"

Power isn't energy not when used in this context, Heres an official accepted definition:
*pow·er*       (pou'ər)  Pronunciation Key   
  n.
The ability or capacity to perform or act effectively.
A specific capacity, faculty, or aptitude. Often used in the plural: _her powers of concentration._
Strength or force exerted or capable of being exerted; might. See Synonyms at .
The ability or official capacity to exercise control; authority.
A person, group, or nation having great influence or control over others: _the western powers._
The might of a nation, political organization, or similar group.
Forcefulness; effectiveness: _a novel of unusual power._
I'm tired of playing word games with you.



Blue said:


> It's not a no-limits fallacy, and you guys are feigning intellectualism poorly by throwing it around.


I like how people shout no-limits when we are dealing with god. The personification of no limits.


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## Chocochip (Oct 29, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> I read it. You're saying it's relative and I'm saying it's not.
> 
> She hasn't been shown to have a limit on her power therefore she has none and that supports her Omnipotent title.



Likewise, I never have been shown that I couldn't jump 20 meters high, so I must be able to right? Likewise, I never been PROVEN I can't shoot water out my nipples so I can, right?


No.

She has a possibility of maybe being able to shift multiverses, but OBD rules say only cannon facts are allowed. We can't assume she has powers.

Naruto really never showed a limit on how high he can jump so I guess he can jump 100000000000000000000000000 miles in to the air right? Similar to your argument.


If you read my previous argument, it pretty much stated that that way of thinking was wrong.


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## Sylar (Oct 29, 2007)

If Haruhi is so powerful, why doesn't she just make other universes for the sliders to come from?


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## Chocochip (Oct 29, 2007)

Because she never shown the ability to.

Assuming and making a possibility into a fact is a fallacy.


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## Fang (Oct 29, 2007)

Sylar said:


> If Haruhi is so powerful, why doesn't she just make other universes for the sliders to come from?



Pretty much. If Haruhi is omnipotent without doing so, then what does that lead us to think of Mad Jim Jaspers?


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## Chocochip (Oct 29, 2007)

Haruhi is omnipotent relevant to a universe, not an omniverse. MJJ would be omnipotent relevant to a universe too, but is nigh-omnipotent as well relevant to a omniverse.


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## Red (Oct 29, 2007)

thegoodjae said:


> Likewise, I never have been shown that I couldn't jump 20 meters high, so I must be able to right? Likewise, I never been PROVEN I can't shoot water out my nipples so I can, right?
> 
> 
> No.
> ...


If we were strictly following OBD rules we wouldn't be having this debate because _it has been stated in the manga. _It is a cannon fact.

Why would you yell a no limits fallacy when you are dealing with a no-limits deity? Common sense dictates that if she truly is an omnipotent then she won't have limits therefore a no limits is acceptable in this situation. Not only that, it validates my entire argument.


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## Fang (Oct 29, 2007)

If she had no limits on her omnipotency, she wouldn't lose her powers to begin with. Knowledgable of them or not.


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## Chocochip (Oct 29, 2007)

Because she is only no-limit respected towards her verse.

Omni cancels out when dealing with the omniverse. She just turns potent.

Everything you said was already explained in my first long post, on how you can't just disregard feats as well as seeing as how I have other examples of why you are wrong, just stop it.


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## Red (Oct 29, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> If she had no limits on her omnipotency, she wouldn't lose her powers to begin with. Knowledgable of them or not.


Silly billy we've been through this. 


thegoodjae said:


> Because she never shown the ability to.
> 
> Assuming and making a possibility into a fact is a fallacy.


Again stop throwing around the word fallacy.

She has show the ability to create entire time lines, she has been shown to make unbelievable amounts of data. She can very well make a new universe if she decides too. Thats is an assumption, but an assumption made on cannon facts.


thegoodjae said:


> Because she is only no-limit respected towards her verse.
> 
> Omni cancels out when dealing with the omniverse. She just turns potent.
> 
> Everything you said was already explained in my first long post, on how you can't just disregard feats as well as seeing as how I have other examples of why you are wrong, just stop it.


I'm not going to take you're "Omnipotence is relative" fanfiction. You can't just change terminologies and definitions whenever it suits you and expect everyone to applaud.


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## Fang (Oct 29, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> Silly billy we've been through this.



You still haven't demonstrated the ability to persuade anyone to drop this arguments against her either.


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## Vicious (Oct 29, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> Silly billy we've been through this.
> 
> Again stop throwing around the word fallacy.
> 
> She has show the ability to create entire time lines, she has been shown to make unbelievable amounts of data. She can very well make a new universe if she decides too. Thats is an assumption, but an assumption made on cannon facts.


Sorry creating timelines doesnt make her Omnipotent


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## Power16 (Oct 29, 2007)

We already know she is a universal level warper and all we have to go on her being omnipotent is a character statement and nothing is said from the author. We all know how much omnipotent and infinite power is thrown in marvel if that's all she has going for her than i don't see how she would defeat MJJ at all. What is it exactly your trying to prove Mr. Despair.


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## Red (Oct 29, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> You still haven't demonstrated the ability to persuade anyone to drop this arguments against her either.


Same goes for you, how many haruhi supporters have you persuaded.



Eiris said:


> Sorry creating timelines doesnt make her Omnipotent


Orly


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## Fang (Oct 29, 2007)

I guess everyone from the Skyfather level in Marvel is Omnipotent then.


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## mystictrunks (Oct 29, 2007)

The way you're describing Haruhi, Mr. despair, it sounds like she's Milleniummon . . .


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## Chocochip (Oct 29, 2007)

Yes, and better yet, don't give her assumed imaginary powers.


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## Fang (Oct 29, 2007)

FYI Jacen solo can go to different timelines in tandem in the Star Wars Universe pretty easily.

So he's omnipotent now?


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## Sylar (Oct 29, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> FYI Jacen solo can go to different timelines in tandem in the Star Wars Universe pretty easily.
> 
> So he's omnipotent now?



So Luke is above omnipotent since he handed Jacen his ass?


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## Fang (Oct 29, 2007)

Ben Skywalker also stabbed him in the shoulder.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 29, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> If she had no limits on her omnipotency, she wouldn't lose her powers to begin with. Knowledgable of them or not.



If a Omnipotent person WISHED to give up there powers, they could do so with a single thought.

Haruhi has subconsiously made silly wishs all through the story.


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## Red (Oct 29, 2007)

Power16 said:


> We already know she is a universal level warper and all we have to go on her being omnipotent is a character statement and nothing is said from the author. We all know how much omnipotent and infinite power is thrown in marvel if that's all she has going for her than i don't see how she would defeat MJJ at all. What is it exactly your trying to prove Mr. Despair.





mystictrunks said:


> The way you're describing Haruhi, Mr. despair, it sounds like she's Milleniummon . . .



I never described anyone. My points are clear: Omnipotent isn't relative, thats as absurd as saying blue is a relative color . The time that she had her powers taken away isn't not an indication of her weakness but an indication of her ignorance. Thats all.

@power Character statement is the bulk of cannon facts authors speak through their characters. Manga authors rarely come out and give statements about powers. We cannot indiscriminately disregard statements. In certain situations i.e like when a bad guy is bragging exaggeration can be taken into account but you just can't say a person is bragging without given reasons as to why, and in this situation Koizim has no reason to exaggerate.


thegoodjae said:


> Yes, and better yet, don't give her assumed imaginary powers.


No ones giving her imaginary powers you on the other hand don't want to acknowledge any powers attributed to her.



Shiroi Kiba said:


> FYI Jacen solo can go to different timelines in tandem in the Star Wars Universe pretty easily.
> 
> So he's omnipotent now?


Unless he can create them and was specifically stated to be. then yes.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 29, 2007)

Power16 said:


> We already know she is a universal level warper and all we have to go on her being omnipotent is a character statement and nothing is said from the author. We all know how much omnipotent and infinite power is thrown in marvel if that's all she has going for her than i don't see how she would defeat MJJ at all. What is it exactly your trying to prove Mr. Despair.



Exactly.  Saying "If there were other multiverses, Haruhi should be able to affect them" is mere speculation.  There is no real solid ground to base that on.

As I've said before, 238 Jaspers is enough for this fight.


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## Power16 (Oct 29, 2007)

What would be his reason to state she is omnipotent. Is it because she has done things he can't perceive because that would just mean he has no understanding of the things she can or cannot do. He can't really say if she is Omnipotent or not which is why i wanted the author to state it either inside the story or outside. Basically we can't say for sure until the story plays out (it isn't over, right).


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## Fang (Oct 29, 2007)

FYI in Last Planet Standing, Dominas commented to himself that he had captured beings like Thor who are "omnipotent powers". We know he's wrong and we knows that's an error of character fallacy.

The same applies to Haruhi.


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## Red (Oct 29, 2007)

Power16 said:


> What would be his reason to state she is omnipotent. Is it because she has done things he can't perceive because that would just mean he has no understanding of the things she can or cannot do. He can't really say if she is Omnipotent or not which is why i wanted the author to state it either inside the story or outside. Basically we can't say for sure until the story plays out (it isn't over, right).


You missed the part about authors directly speaking through there characters.
And he does have understanding about haruhi, in fact any statement given by yuki, mikuru and Koizumi has more truth to it than anybody else in the story. They're respective groups have been following her since the event 3 years ago, they're the ones who have the intimate knowledge of her different aspects. The only person who we can't trust knowledge wise is kyon.


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## Power16 (Oct 29, 2007)

What reasoning did said character have when they stated her as Omnipotent.


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## Fang (Oct 29, 2007)

Or they could had a bias since she's the only universal warper they know.


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## Chocochip (Oct 29, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> I never described anyone. My points are clear: Omnipotent isn't relative, thats as absurd as saying blue is a relative color . The time that she had her powers taken away isn't not an indication of her weakness but an indication of her ignorance. Thats all.
> 
> @power Character statement is the bulk of cannon facts authors speak through their characters. Manga authors rarely come out and give statements about powers. We cannot indiscriminately disregard statements. In certain situations i.e like when a bad guy is bragging exaggeration can be taken into account but you just can't say a person is bragging without given reasons as to why, and in this situation Koizim has no reason to exaggerate.
> No ones giving her imaginary powers you on the other hand don't want to acknowledge any powers attributed to her.
> ...




No, not really, I am not. There are many people that showed the same feats of Haruhi in DC and Marvel yet they are not considered omnipotent. If they were put in only one verse then, they would be considered omnipotent. They would be no less then Haruhi, and actually be more since no one can oppose them from one verse, as well as they actually can control and know their powers.

It pretty much means you are proven wrong with the same situation happening many times. We can speculate all we want, but proven through other characters, NO, it doesn't work like you want it to. They seemed no-limit because they can get one verse to do whatever they wish, but yet when they come to others, they can't.


Haruhi is omnipotent relevant to her universes RULES. Every universe has different rules, different realities, things she never experienced or ever even knew could exist. Her powers we do not know if it functions with a different reality, similar, other "omnipotents in their verse" might have never dealth his Haruhi's universe that has different RULES, different REALITIES. We can't speculate she can be omnipotent of another verse when the rules and functions are different.

How do I know they are different? A universe is omnipotent, and if another universe's rule was the same, they would in fact be the same universe since a universe having omnispace would connect to each other. A universe with a different function and reality would be the only way to have a seperate universe, or reality, since the two can not coincide. 

This means her powers might not only not be able to work in different verses like her own verse, but most likely would not work at all. Her omnipotence follows her own universes rules and can work due to being able to function with it and being able to overtake it due to knowing its existence and understanding of the verse.

Other verses, with totally different rules and realities, are something she can not understand or her powers can not compute because her omnipotent powers cooperrate her own verse. They do not go together. What one power seems great to work in one verse, can be useless in another.

MJJ is one of the few select that somehow is omnipotent in almost every verse and that is why he is nigh-omnipotent in his the omniverse.

That is why he is above MJJ.

We can't speculate that she might be omnipotent in another verse, and until shown, that type of thinking should be diminished as it makes no sense.
I hope this wasn't too confusing, I dazed myself out.


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## Red (Oct 29, 2007)

Power16 said:


> What reasoning did said character have when they stated her as Omnipotent.


How do you expect me to know what his reasoning. 



thegoodjae said:


> No, not really, I am not. There are many people that showed the same feats of Haruhi in DC and Marvel yet they are not considered omnipotent. If they were put in only one verse then, they would be considered omnipotent. They would be no less then Haruhi, and actually be more since no one can oppose them from one verse, as well as they actually can control and know their powers.
> 
> It pretty much means you are proven wrong with the same situation happening many times. We can speculate all we want, but proven through other characters, NO, it doesn't work like you want it to. They seemed no-limit because they can get one verse to do whatever they wish, but yet when they come to others, they can't.
> 
> ...


You weren't confusing at all. You pretty much repeated yourself. you've been trying to explain how Omnipotence is relative and I'm saying it's not. If you are omnipotent in one universe, logically without corrupting the meaning of the term "Omnipotence", you are omnipotent in an infinite amount of universes.

And your point about rules is flawed, omnipotents don't play by the rules, they disregard it and thats why they're omnipotent in the first place.

The only real question here is *"Can koizumi's words be trusted." *I say yes, because of his character story and the fact that the author was conveying information through him.


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## Fang (Oct 29, 2007)

All characters convey information from their authors. That is not important.


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## Chocochip (Oct 29, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> How do you expect me to know what his reasoning.
> 
> You weren't confusing at all. You pretty much repeated yourself. you've been trying to explain how Omnipotence is relative and I'm saying it's not. If you are omnipotent in one universe, logically without corrupting the meaning of the term "Omnipotence", you are omnipotent in an infinite amount of universes.
> 
> ...



I know. They can disregard the rules of that universe because the rules of that universe is disregardable for them. Not for otehr verses.


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## Red (Oct 29, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> All characters convey information from their authors. That is not important.


You just said the information given by the authors isn't important. So whats important? random musings of OBDtards like us?


thegoodjae said:


> I know. They can disregard the rules of that universe because the rules of that universe is disregardable for them. Not for otehr verses.


That contradicts omnipotence.


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## Fang (Oct 29, 2007)

You ignored my Dominas example from LPS, Red.


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## Red (Oct 29, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> You ignored my Dominas example from LPS, Red.


I'll reply after I finish buying and reading LPS


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## Power16 (Oct 29, 2007)

You have read the novels right so is there a reason why he said she was Omnipotent. I'm trying to find out why she should be considered Omnipotent. If he has no reason to call her Omnipotent then said character is just spewing baseless statements.


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## mfair4d (Oct 29, 2007)

People have mentioned that Haruhi's power's can be stolen, and I wanted to talk about this.  

Haruhi's powers are so powerful that losing her powers are irrelevant.  IMO the whole purpose of Disappearance was to show that Kyon wanted to remain in a world where Haruhi existed.  In other word's Haruhi Yuki using her powers had a positive effect for Haruhi, so from her perspective, it doesn't even matter if her powers are stolen, it will still work out for the best for her.  

Furthermore Disappearance proves that Yuki is an alien simply because Haruhi wants her to be an alien.  If Haruhi didn't want her powers to be able to be taken away they wouldn't be able to be taken away.


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## Fang (Oct 29, 2007)

Omnipotents never lose their power. They aren't limited to merely recreating one universe.

So despite the fact that MJJ has warped infinite universes, he's not omnipotent in comparison to such a pale water showing by Haruhi? He's never had his power stolen in fact.


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## Red (Oct 29, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Omnipotents never lose their power. They aren't limited to merely recreating one universe.


She was never limited to anything, poor choice of words on your part. And we've rehashed this losing power thing so many times now.


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## Havoc (Oct 30, 2007)

Ok, so let me see if I've got this right.


Haruhi has lost her powers and was never stated by the author to be omnipotent, just by a character who would not know the difference between an omnipotent or a strong reality warper.


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## Fang (Oct 30, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> She was never limited to anything, poor choice of words on your part. And we've rehashed this losing power thing so many times now.





Havoc said:


> Ok, so let me see if I've got this right.
> 
> 
> Haruhi has lost her powers and was never stated by the author to be omnipotent, just by a character who would not know the difference between an omnipotent or a strong reality warper.



Nailed it on the head pretty much.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Oct 30, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> Omnipotence = all power. Being limited to one universe (or limited in any way) disproves omnipotence.
> 
> What a fucktarded argument.
> 
> "Kishimoto decided not to get silly like Star Wars and create convoluted terms like space combat and planet busting. Narutoverse stuck to the concept of having the story just on Earth, like a story should be. Naruto characters can beat people on the ground, therefore they can beat people anywhere. Garbage like starships and Death Stars just undermine the term world. Everyone who doesn't have a sharingan in Star Wars is weaker than Itachi."



Sigh, your argument is the one that is messed up. 
Marvel subjected its verse to greater limitations by subdiving the concept of parallel holistic existence. They have convoluted what is uncompromisable terminology, and you've fallen into their trap. There is no such thing as a diffrent universe, because that supposed difference is still within the defintion of universe. 
The universe is everything and anything. Terms like Multiverse and Omniverse are limited by the definition of universe. Otherwise they make no damn sense. As it stands, the universe is one connected chain that includes infinte/everything. No matter what, a fictional medium is bound by that principal because the term universe, by its very definition, must include the supposed 'infinte universes' that can exist. Hence, the only conclusion to be reached is as follows. Haruhi can control the 'universe'. Jasper cannot control the 'universe'. Haruhi wins.


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## Blue (Oct 30, 2007)

Havoc said:


> Ok, so let me see if I've got this right.
> 
> 
> Haruhi has lost her powers and was never stated by the author to be omnipotent, just by a character who would not know the difference between an omnipotent or a strong reality warper.



Are we talking about Haruhi or Thanos here?


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## Chocochip (Oct 30, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> You just said the information given by the authors isn't important. So whats important? random musings of OBDtards like us?
> That contradicts omnipotence.



Yes, as the OMNI in omniverse contradicts or denies omnipotents powers.

omnipotent in omniverse just becomes a potent in a verse. They cancel out pretty much.


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## Havoc (Oct 30, 2007)

Blue said:


> Are we talking about Haruhi or Thanos here?



Well seeing as I said Haruhi, and Thanos isn't omnipotent...


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## Fang (Oct 30, 2007)

Blue said:


> Are we talking about Haruhi or Thanos here?



Maybe if it was Thanos with the IG.


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## Chocochip (Oct 30, 2007)

Thanos would be omnipotent in any universe with the IG.


----------



## Havoc (Oct 30, 2007)

thegoodjae said:


> Thanos would be omnipotent in any universe with the IG.



No he wouldn't, because he wasn't.


----------



## Blue (Oct 30, 2007)

Havoc said:


> Well seeing as I said Haruhi, and Thanos isn't omnipotent...





Shiroi Kiba said:


> Maybe if it was Thanos with the IG.


Lol trapped.

What happens when Thanos LOSES the IG?


----------



## Havoc (Oct 30, 2007)

With IG or without, he's still not omnipotent.

I don't see what point you're trying to make.


----------



## Blue (Oct 30, 2007)

He's omnipotent enough for the purposes of the discussion. He'd wreck Jimmy.

Yet his power comes from a bloody glove.


----------



## Fang (Oct 30, 2007)

Blue said:


> He's omnipotent enough for the purposes of the discussion. He'd wreck Jimmy.
> 
> Yet his power comes from a bloody glove.



MJJ's weaker versions stand a good chance of beating him with the IG.

Edit: Take Havoc's word over mine, he's more knowledgable.


----------



## Havoc (Oct 30, 2007)

Blue said:


> He's omnipotent enough for the purposes of the discussion. He'd wreck Jimmy.
> 
> Yet his power comes from a bloody glove.



Why do you say Thanos w/ IG is above MJJ?


----------



## Tuxx (Oct 30, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Omnipotents never lose their power. They aren't limited to merely recreating one universe.



Haruhi aside...

Being omnipotent is already a self walking contradicting nature that has many paradoxes within itself.   Simply put, if an agent who is omnipotent were to act upon itself, that is try throw away its omnipotency, it would be absurd to say that it was outside of it's powers.  But one can argue that it would be against its very nature, a violation, that is, being omnipotent.  And by being omnipotent, it is only limited to itself, and thus cannot do something outside of its nature.

But because it is logically impossible, it could also be said that even if the agent threw away its omnipotency, in reality, it actually never lost it, because it's impossible.  But, can the agent be subconsciously trying to restrict itself?  Impossible...omniscience suggest otherwise.  Having omniscience, one would know everything.  All actions, past or future.  The course of events, even to the agent itself.  It would know...but it knowing is different from it willing to choose.  But if it decided to change its mind about something by not going along with the  predetermined courses, could we still say it is omniscience?  

Even complete omniscience is faulty.  Omniscience means to know everything, even to the agent itself.  It would know about its very nature, and if there could be higher beings than itself.  Or when it came to be and why.  But even omniscience is limited that is, it can only know what it knows...  It cannot know what happened before it came to be.  Thus one could say that omniscience isn't really omniscience at all.

Then there's the whole, since it seems to be only acting in its universe and only.  What happened it the agent were to move outside of it.  Would it still retain its omnipotency?  The fact is, if it were omnipotent in its universe, what would happened if it met other another omnipotents.  Both of them would still retain their omnipotency.  It is until one of them takes action.  From there on... *blank*

There are no omnipotents...just wannabes. I'm sure there's a reason why many authors/writers never actually do a omnipotent vs omnipotent before.  It's just impossible.  Not even DC or Marvel...I think.

All in all, beware of wall of text, useless info. ><


----------



## Blue (Oct 30, 2007)

I dunno, maybe the fact that Thanos walked all over everything -Galactus, Eternity, etc, who are all multiversal - save the Tribunal?

Maybe I'm missing something?


----------



## Havoc (Oct 30, 2007)

DC and Marvel did an omnipotent vs. battle.


The Amalgam brother.  Not sure if it was canon though.


edit: Ok, the brothers were retconned.

Here's a pic.


----------



## Havoc (Oct 30, 2007)

Blue said:


> I dunno, maybe the fact that Thanos walked all over everything -Galactus, Eternity, etc, who are all multiversal - save the Tribunal?
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something?



Thanos with IG beat the universal aspects of those cosmics, not the Multiversal ones. 

 There is a difference.

Thanos with IG affected one universe, which is way he was inferior to the Thanos with the HOTU, as he then had multiversal powers.


----------



## Red (Oct 30, 2007)

why are people ignoring ignis and tuxx?

Wasn't the beyonder rendered brain dead by thanos in one arc?


----------



## Havoc (Oct 30, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> why are people ignoring ignis and tuxx?
> 
> Wasn't the beyonder rendered brain dead by thanos in one arc?



Yea Thanos beat him, he is no where near he old power since he has been retconned, but yes he has...not seeing the relevance though.


Wait, I'm not even sure it was the same Beyonder, hold on, let me check.

edit: Ok, that was an entirely different character named Beyonder.  I don't remember a fight between Thanos and Beyonder.  Do you have scans?


----------



## Blue (Oct 30, 2007)

Fine, HotU Thanos then. -_-

Do you see my point? There is absolutely no reason why omnipotence can't be transferred. Or, if you perfer, a level of "omnipotence" sufficient to erase Jimmy.


----------



## Fang (Oct 30, 2007)

Which Haruhi has never demonstrated.


----------



## Blue (Oct 30, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Which Haruhi has never demonstrated.


I can burn that bridge later. 
Right now we're ending the "omg Haruhi lost her powahs" absurdity.


----------



## Havoc (Oct 30, 2007)

Blue said:


> Fine, HotU Thanos then. -_-
> 
> Do you see my point? There is absolutely no reason why omnipotence can't be transferred. Or, if you perfer, a level of "omnipotence" sufficient to erase Jimmy.



HOTU Thanos wasn't omnipotent either. 

He is just stronger than MJJ.


It doesn't make sense for the power of an omnipotent to be guarded by a bunch of Celestials, it was just a portion of TOAA power, and it gave Thanos nigh omnipotence.  There has never been an omnipotent in the Marvel universe besides TOAA


----------



## Havoc (Oct 30, 2007)

So you have proof Haruhi is equal to Thanos w/ HOTU in power?


----------



## Red (Oct 30, 2007)

Havoc said:


> Yea Thanos beat him, he is no where near he old power since he has been retconned, but yes he has...not seeing the relevance though.
> 
> 
> Wait, I'm not even sure it was the same Beyonder, hold on, let me check.
> ...


Yes here








As for your koizumi comment earlier, koizumi has more knowledge than you give him credit for, he already knew of yuki and his organization is the one that has been following haruhi since the event. He's not some random bloke spewing ou nonsense.


----------



## Havoc (Oct 30, 2007)

Ah ok, that is not the Beyonder who was stronger than basically everyone in the Marvel universe.  This is him. 

Also she had been weakened before Thanos beat her.


----------



## Red (Oct 30, 2007)

Havoc said:


> Ah ok, that is not the Beyonder who was stronger than basically everyone in the Marvel universe.  This is him.
> 
> Also she had been weakened before Thanos beat her.


Okay then.
so why are people still ignoring ignis and tuxx?


----------



## Havoc (Oct 30, 2007)

I don't even know what they said.


----------



## Blue (Oct 30, 2007)

Havoc, I know you're not this dense. -_-

So I'm just going to assume you know what I'm getting at and agree. So let's drop that and talk about levels of omnipotence. (And yes, Tuxx, I read your piece, agree, and have posted similar things before. But whatever.)

First there's the fact that, as Ignis put in incredibly awesome words, Haruhi having been stated to be omnipotent means that she controls _everything_. This multiverse crap is an invention of Marvel, who have polluted the very definition of omnipotent. If there's a universe, Haruhi controls it.

Second, Haruhi created everything in the Haruhi universe. As she obviously existed before the thing she made, she must exist outside Space-Time. Therefore talk of her occupying one universe is nonsense, even if you wanted to ignore the fact that she made another universe while the first was still around. 

Third, and this is just semantic bullshit, but this whole thread is semantic bullshit so what the hell - "Heart of the Universe" controls the multiverse. Shouldn't it be "Heart of the Multiverse"? Oh wait, Ignis explained that.


----------



## Havoc (Oct 30, 2007)

Blue you are the one wrongly comparing her to Marvel characters.  I didn't start this comparison between cosmic powers.

I was just trying to understand why people thought she was omnipotent if she has had her powers stolen, so no, I'm not the dense one.  

Your acceptance of her omnipotence is speculation.


----------



## Red (Oct 30, 2007)

Havoc said:


> Your acceptance of her omnipotence is speculation.


Speculation based on cannon statements.


----------



## Havoc (Oct 30, 2007)

Please list these statements, or evidence again.


----------



## Fang (Oct 30, 2007)

Character fallacies are not infalliable.


----------



## mfair4d (Oct 30, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> As for your koizumi comment earlier, koizumi has more knowledge than you give him credit for, he already knew of yuki and his organization is the one that has been following haruhi since the event. He's not some random bloke spewing ou nonsense.



Not to mention he can read her mind to some degree.


----------



## Red (Oct 30, 2007)

Havoc said:


> Please list these statements, or evidence again.


Theres a good twelve pages. Better start reading.


----------



## Havoc (Oct 30, 2007)

You can't paraphrase?


----------



## Red (Oct 30, 2007)

Havoc said:


> You can't paraphrase?


Yes, but then you'd miss out on the other peoples opinion.


----------



## mfair4d (Oct 30, 2007)

To try and finish this I say through Shiki Tohno into it.  See what happens when he pokes each individual contestant.  See which one potentially destroys/potentially resconstructs the universe upon their death.


----------



## Tuxx (Oct 30, 2007)

mfair4d said:


> To try and finish this I say through Shiki Tohno into it.  See what happens when he pokes each individual contestant.  See which one potentially destroys/potentially resconstructs the universe upon their death.



Much as I love T.Shiki/N.Shiki there is no way he would be able to even comprehend being as such...if they really are what they're made out to be.  Yes, not even Satsujinki. ><

Maybe...just maybe, R.Shiki 3rd personality can...maybe.


----------



## Red (Oct 30, 2007)

Koizumi's words



> "......Let's say I agree with what you said, it doesn't matter whether the Earth was formed three years ago or five minutes ago. The thing is, what does your 'Organization's' existence have to do with Haruhi?"
> "The leader of the 'Organization' believes that this world is really a person's dream. We, no, it should be the whole world itself is all but a dream. Because it's just a dream, for that person, to create and alter this reality we're in is as simple as clockwork. And we all know who this person is."
> Perhaps it's his referential use of words, but Koizumi's face looks surprisingly mature.
> "Humans have called those who can create and destroy the world at will as God."
> ......Hey, Haruhi! You've become a god already, oh my god! (Pun intended.)





> "Neither did I. A mere schoolgirl having the ability to change the world -- sorry, I guess it should be more like the ability to create worlds, huh? The scary thing is that this girl now finds the world she's in to be boring."
> "Why's that?"
> "Didn't I say it before? If she could create worlds at will, then naturally she can make this world disappear without a trace and then restructure it according to her wishes. Then, in a literal sense, the world will have come to an end. We can't determine whether this theory is correct or not; who knows, the world which we believe to be unique has probably been recreated many times before already."
> I was overusing the word "unbelievable" so much now that I needed a thesaurus.



Why koizumi's words carry weight.



> "How come you know so much?"
> "I told you, I just know, it can't be explained. Everyone associated with the 'Organization' is the same. One day they just suddenly knew everything about Suzumiya-san and how she could affect this world, as well as realizing that since they now had supernatural powers, they couldn't just allow these Sealed Realities to continue untouched. When normal people learn of this kind of thing, they would normally want to see if they can be of any help. If we hadn't done anything about it, the world as we know it would have been destroyed."


----------



## Rice Ball (Oct 30, 2007)

Maker and Beyonder are 2 different beings.

Maker is a CUBE being (like retconned beyonder..pre recent retcon i mean)


----------



## Power16 (Oct 30, 2007)

Blue : Thanos named it HOTU the original name i believe was Heart of the Infinite.

Mr. Despair : Please tell me its not this part that is getting everyone work up about her omnipotent "Humans have called those who can create and destroy the world at will as God." and from the rest it seem that she could be the one who also gave them info on her whether it's real or not.


----------



## Sylar (Oct 30, 2007)

I still want to know why if Haruhi was omnipotent she couldn't have created another universe for sliders to come from.


----------



## ∅ (Oct 30, 2007)

I'm going with


----------



## AgentMarth (Oct 30, 2007)

So, it took 12 pages for someone to post where is was stated that Haruhi was Omnipotent. All I see is that she was stated to be "god". Alot of things have been considered "god" over time, but it does not to me mean that they are Omnipotent. People have always labeled strong beings (in this case a high level reality warper) that they couldn't fully comprehend "god", it to me doesn't mean that they are do all end all like TOAA seems to be. I would call someone who can warp stuff to their will a "god", but it doesn't make them such, nor even close.

Even though it was said by a character, which while authors do tend to convey there words through, the same said characters have also conveyed things that aren't true or are later taken back. And thats if he actually said omnipotent, and not just god.

According to posts in this thread (yes I DID read all all 12 pages) he later took back his words. Can someone post that?

Assumptions are fun and all, and can make stuff exciting, but even an assumption based on canon fact is still an assumption. Everyone always assumes stuff, and forms there own opinion, but just look at how many manga theories pan out from peoples assumption vs those that don't. It can go either way, but until proven, you can't say its true.

So to me this is just reality warper vs reality warper. With one effecting an omniverse vs one who effect just one(?). If anything its just sheer size. Even if you consider the omniverse to be the same as the universe, which i don't get how, if she was really the most supreme being in everything, she wouldn't be reduced to the likes of a normal school girl who lost her powers and her memory of it, who can't do what she pleases, and is seemly limited in so many ways, even if done by choice. Which can't make sense to me, because what would be the point of it? Fun? Vacation? Selfishness? Boredom? Does the supreme being even feel the need for such things?

I just don't see Haruhi winning this from all i've read, so MJJ takes it.


----------



## Fang (Oct 30, 2007)

Haruhi doesn't win. That simple.


----------



## mfair4d (Oct 30, 2007)

Sylar said:


> I still want to know why if Haruhi was omnipotent she couldn't have created another universe for sliders to come from.



She did.  His name is John Smith.


----------



## Red (Oct 30, 2007)

Go to dictionary.com. Type in the word "God" copy and paste it here. I'm honestly tired of playing semantics with everyone.


----------



## Power16 (Oct 30, 2007)

This is going nowhere. you showed the words and they can be interpreted in different ways. It can suggest omnipotent or just high level warper. this is what you posted "Humans have called those who can create and destroy the world at will as God." and your telling me that just simply means she's omnipotent and nothing else, come one. 

No one is changing there mind, most believe MJJ wins and few in Harushi so we might as well leave it at that before the circle begins.


----------



## Rice Ball (Oct 30, 2007)

i'd say they have equal numbers ^^


----------



## Fang (Oct 30, 2007)

A person having meet a universal level reality warper would naturally think they are "God".


----------



## Power16 (Oct 30, 2007)

Yeah yeah, that was my way of saying MJJ wins .


----------



## Red (Oct 30, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> A person having meet a universal level reality warper would naturally think they are "God".


Universal level is the highest level, ignis made that clear enough.

@power

You asked for quotes I gave you a direct quote don't see how they can make it anymore explicit. You questioned their integrity I provided proof that they already have the knowledge since that event.

interpret it the way you want.


----------



## Fang (Oct 30, 2007)

And MJJ did that on an infinite basis.


----------



## Azure Flame Fright (Oct 30, 2007)

200 something posts and they are all the same 
End result:
The consensus here appears to be Marvel omniverse > any plane of fiction that has less universes
Thus a multiverse level manipulator is greater than a universe level god, that is the consensus here 
Close thread now plz






PS. check out the ginta vs naruto thread 
KTHXBAI


----------



## Red (Oct 30, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> And MJJ did that on an infinite basis.


The universe is infinite.


----------



## Power16 (Oct 30, 2007)

Like i said circles. Read it yourself and tell me again how that proves she is Omnipotent and not just some high warper(when compared to marvel). If universal is the highest limit then how come i hear people saying she can effect/create more than one universe so a universal power wouldn't be the limit. W/e let the thread die.


----------



## Amatsu (Oct 31, 2007)

This is proof enough Haruhi would lose.



Kyon bitchslap is more powerful than your Haruhi.


----------



## Vicious (Oct 31, 2007)

Theirs still a chance that Kyon could be omnipotent, ppl.


----------



## Amatsu (Oct 31, 2007)

Eiris said:


> Theirs still a chance that Kyon could be omnipotent, ppl.



He just bitchslapped a supposedly omnipotent girl. What's that say? XD


----------



## mfair4d (Oct 31, 2007)

Eiris said:


> Theirs still a chance that Kyon could be omnipotent, ppl.



I know.  God 10th book come out already.  
Also Haruhi desire to be with Kyon is greater than anything in the world.  She would let him do anything (actually maybe not, considering she had false Kyon leave her room (I wonder what he did))


----------



## Red (Oct 31, 2007)

Aethos said:


> This is proof enough Haruhi would lose.
> 
> 
> 
> Kyon bitchslap is more powerful than your Haruhi.


I dare you, from the bottom of my soul to post the entire doujin, page for page and wait for haterade. he'll have your liver on a roasted yam


----------



## Amatsu (Oct 31, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> I dare you, from the bottom of my soul to post the entire doujin, page for page and wait for haterade. he'll have your liver on a roasted yam



I would if this was the bathhouse but I'm not stupid enough to take on that kind of dare here. XD

Especially if Haterade would gut me alive for it. XD


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 31, 2007)

I can't believe this is still going.

This is what was necessary to take out 238 Jaspers (the weaker version)




616 Jaspers was completely immune to that.

I'd like to see any kind of evidence whatsoever that anything in the Haruhiverse could survive that.



Rice Ball said:


> Alot of the people posting 'Haruhi isn't omnipotent' have terrible double standards.
> 
> Take these examples-
> 
> ...



Red herring.



> Pre Retcon beyonder didn't show any feats outside the 616 universe, but he had the omniversal judge on his knee's.



Outright lie. PR Beyonder created multiverses.



> Have you ever seen TOAA do anything apart from paint a picture? Hes been mentioned by various characters as 'god' but has ZERO feats to back it up, but hes commonly accepted by almost every debater as omnipotent.



Except for creating every other character in Marvel



> Don't get me started on the presence, how can something that has a equal be omnipotent.



The Presence and the GEB are both two facets of the same being. They merged together.



> Mike did alert me to several things that Haruhi had done that contradicts her being omnipotent, such as having her power stolen. Haruhi doesn't have Omniscience, shes basically pre retcon beyonder with less understanding of what she was.



Except she has absolutely no feats anywhere near PR Beyonder. She doesn't even have feats near Post - Retcon Beyonder.



> If she didn't suffer from CIS (AKA if she was fighting in the OBD) she would be full on god.



False, complete lie with no evidence to back it up.



Blue said:


> If someone wanted to mention the fact that Haruhi doesn't know her omnipotence from her ass, I'd be very inclined to agree that any reality warper (or really, even a dude with a gun) has a good chance to take her down (although what happens after that could be disastrous).
> 
> But everyone is concentrating on this omniversal tripe.
> 
> First, there's plenty of evidence Haruhi can control (and, in fact, created) more than one universe. People choose to ignore this, saying it was the same universe. Very unlikely.



There is no such evidence, only wishful thinking.



> Second, as Rice mentioned, there have been a lot of ridiculously omnipotent characters who never left their universe.



Repeating the lies of another liar.



> Does this mean they can't? In the context of their universe, quite possibly. There may only be their one universe. They're still omnipotent, meaning if were there more universes, they could control them.



Not if they have never demonstrated that ability. You can't just make up abilities for a character. That's like saying "Goku just goes SSJ5, SSJ6, SSJ7, etc."



> It's not a no-limits fallacy, and you guys are feigning intellectualism poorly by throwing it around.
> 
> In fact, here's a fun experiment. Type "no-limits fallacy" into Google, see what shows up. You might be surprised.



A no - limits fallacy is a special case of the argument from ignorance fallacy.



Mr.Despair said:


> Or because _*THERE ARE NO OTHER UNIVERSES TO EFFECT*_ did that idea ever occur to you?



If she was omnipotent, she could just create them. But she can't. 



> No it doesn't. They obviously carry different intonations. The first one implies that she was Over powered the second one means that she was Out
> One is proof of her not being Omnipotent the other is proof of her not being omniscient. She was outsmarted and thats obvious.



Omniscience is a necessary corollary of omnipotence.



> Translation: "hey why don't I make up my own definition to use an debate, maybe if I'll repeat it enough times people will think I'm right"
> 
> Power isn't energy not when used in this context, Heres an official accepted definition:
> *snip*
> I'm tired of playing word games with you.



You're the one playing word games by redefining omnipotence as infinite power instead of ability (which is obviously false by a simple application of logic).



> I like how people shout no-limits when we are dealing with god. The personification of no limits.



Oh, right, because someone is called "God" that automatically removes all need for them to demonstrate actual feats.

Jaspers was also called "God", yet you're going to demonstrate your double standard by ignoring that now.



Mr.Despair said:


> You just said the information given by the authors isn't important. So whats important? random musings of OBDtards like us?



Actual feats. Something you keep ignoring.



mfair4d said:


> People have mentioned that Haruhi's power's can be stolen, and I wanted to talk about this.
> 
> Haruhi's powers are so powerful that losing her powers are irrelevant.  IMO the whole purpose of Disappearance was to show that Kyon wanted to remain in a world where Haruhi existed.  In other word's Haruhi Yuki using her powers had a positive effect for Haruhi, so from her perspective, it doesn't even matter if her powers are stolen, it will still work out for the best for her.
> 
> Furthermore Disappearance proves that Yuki is an alien simply because Haruhi wants her to be an alien.  If Haruhi didn't want her powers to be able to be taken away they wouldn't be able to be taken away.



You're simply making things up now. That's called wishful thinking.

Using this type of logic, you could say "even though Naruto has lost battles, it always turned out okay for him in the end, so therefore he can't ever lose in the OBD"

Sorry, but character shields don't count in vs debates.



Mocktrust-Ignis said:


> Sigh, your argument is the one that is messed up.
> Marvel subjected its verse to greater limitations by subdiving the concept of parallel holistic existence. They have convoluted what is uncompromisable terminology, and you've fallen into their trap. There is no such thing as a diffrent universe, because that supposed difference is still within the defintion of universe.
> The universe is everything and anything. Terms like Multiverse and Omniverse are limited by the definition of universe. Otherwise they make no damn sense. As it stands, the universe is one connected chain that includes infinte/everything. No matter what, a fictional medium is bound by that principal because the term universe, by its very definition, must include the supposed 'infinte universes' that can exist. Hence, the only conclusion to be reached is as follows. Haruhi can control the 'universe'. Jasper cannot control the 'universe'. Haruhi wins.



Translation: "I'm just going to ignore the canon information because I don't like it"



Mr.Despair said:


> Universal level is the highest level, ignis made that clear enough.
> 
> @power
> 
> ...



Universe level is not the highest level.

One universe = one area of time and space, containing its own laws of physics, history, etc.

Someone who can affect multiple universes > Someone who can affect one universe. I can't believe I have to explain something so simple to you people.



Mr.Despair said:


> The universe is infinite.



No, the universe is only some 13.7 billion years old, and a few tens of billions of light - years wide.

Jaspers referred to as God:



Directly by narration, to boot (directly from the author as opposed to a character).


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 31, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> If we were strictly following OBD rules we wouldn't be having this debate because _it has been stated in the manga. _It is a cannon fact.



Manga? It was originally a novel. That just shows you're ignorant about the source material.

And how is a character stating something a "canon fact?"

Characters can be wrong, you know.

Using your logic, it's a "canon fact" that no one without a Sharingan can defeat Itachi, so he beats Galactus, and it's a "canon fact" that Raizen's stomach shook and infinite dimension so he has infinite power.



> Why would you yell a no limits fallacy when you are dealing with a no-limits deity? Common sense dictates that if she truly is an omnipotent then she won't have limits therefore a no limits is acceptable in this situation. Not only that, it validates my entire argument.



"Common sense" dictates that she is *not* omnipotent, because she has shown limits, but you're just ignoring them, and attempting to redefine omnipotence to get around them.



Mr.Despair said:


> Silly billy we've been through this.
> 
> Again stop throwing around the word fallacy.
> 
> She has show the ability to create entire time lines, she has been shown to make unbelievable amounts of data. She can very well make a new universe if she decides too. Thats is an assumption, but an assumption made on cannon facts.



She's shown the ability to recreate a universe by destroying the previous one, not to create an entirely new one from scratch.



> I'm not going to take you're "Omnipotence is relative" fanfiction. You can't just change terminologies and definitions whenever it suits you and expect everyone to applaud.



A universal reality warper is hardly omnipotent.



Rice Ball said:


> If a Omnipotent person WISHED to give up there powers, they could do so with a single thought.
> 
> Haruhi has subconsiously made silly wishs all through the story.



You will of course now provide canon evidence that she wished to relinquish her powers (which she didn't even know she had).



Mr.Despair said:


> I never described anyone. My points are clear: Omnipotent isn't relative, thats as absurd as saying blue is a relative color . The time that she had her powers taken away isn't not an indication of her weakness but an indication of her ignorance. Thats all.



You're such a hypocrite. You're redefining omnipotence right now, by assuming that somehow it can exist without omniscience.



> @power Character statement is the bulk of cannon facts authors speak through their characters. Manga authors rarely come out and give statements about powers. We cannot indiscriminately disregard statements. In certain situations i.e like when a bad guy is bragging exaggeration can be taken into account but you just can't say a person is bragging without given reasons as to why, and in this situation Koizim has no reason to exaggerate.



Right, and I suppose Koizumi has super cosmic knowledge that would allow him to make such a judgement? Considering he is constantly surprised by things, I find that highly doubtful. A character statement like that is completely useless if the character has not demonstrated any feats to back it up. This is like the whole SDK lightspeed thing, and the YYH planet busters. Genkai had no reason to lie or exaggerate when she said Yusuke could destroy the earth, and the demon assistants had no reasons to lie or exaggerate when they said the Makai Kings had infinite power, but it still isn't accepted *because they don't have feats to back it up.*



> No ones giving her imaginary powers you on the other hand don't want to acknowledge any powers attributed to her.



I acknowledge the powers she has *actually demonstrated.*



Mr.Despair said:


> You missed the part about authors directly speaking through there characters.
> And he does have understanding about haruhi, in fact any statement given by yuki, mikuru and Koizumi has more truth to it than anybody else in the story. They're respective groups have been following her since the event 3 years ago, they're the ones who have the intimate knowledge of her different aspects. The only person who we can't trust knowledge wise is kyon.



Except for all the times they've been wrong about things.



Mr.Despair said:


> The only real question here is *"Can koizumi's words be trusted." *I say yes, because of his character story and the fact that the author was conveying information through him.



This not only violates SoD, but is a completely worthless argument. The same could be said about any statement made by any character.

If you are so enamored with Koizumi's words, then how about this:



			
				Koizumi said:
			
		

> "As of right now, she's still an incomplete god, unable to completely control the world at will. Even though she hasn't completely evolved, we've already seen some signs of it."





			
				Koizumi said:
			
		

> "Relax! I don't believe in the existence of an Almighty God, or the Ultimate Creator that created humans. Many of my companions think the same way as well. Yet, there's one thing that bothers us."





			
				Koizumi said:
			
		

> "I think there's no way we could ever find out whether Suzumiya-san is God or a similar omnipotent being, but there's one thing we can be sure of. If she continues to freely use her powers and it leads to the world being changed, it's possible no one would even realize that the world had changed. The scary thing is, even Suzumiya-san doesn't realize when the world has been altered."
> 
> "Why's that?"
> 
> "Because Suzumiya-san is a part of this world, proof that she isn't the creator of this world. If she is a God who has created this world, she should be in a place outside of this world, yet here she is living with us in this world. We can only conclude that she can only alter the world to a certain extent, and this is unnatural and very strange."





			
				Koizumi said:
			
		

> "I suppose that it has weakened."
> 
> What is it?
> 
> "Suzumiya-san's power. That and Nagato-san's data manipulation ability."



And why do you listen to Koizumi over every other character?



			
				Mikuru said:
			
		

> "Suzumiya-san does indeed possess the power to change the 'present,' but I don't think she has the ability to reconstruct the world. This world has been this way since the beginning, it's not created by Suzumiya-san."





			
				Yuki said:
			
		

> "I believe this is what Asahina Mikuru thinks,"
> 
> Nagato said as though she could read my mind.
> 
> "Suzumiya Haruhi isn't the creator and was not responsible for the creation of this world. This world has existed in this state since long ago. The supernatural existence of espers, temporal anomalies and alien life forms wasn't created through the wishes of Suzumiya Haruhi, and has existed since long before that. Suzumiya Haruhi's task is to unconsciously discover the existence of these beings. She started using her abilities three years ago, but her discoveries have not led her to become self-aware. She is able to search for the paranormal, but it contradicts with her own views on the paranormal world. This is because one faction is still preventing her from becoming self-aware."





			
				Yuki said:
			
		

> Nagato quickly answered my question,
> 
> "No one can guarantee that Koizumi Itsuki is telling the truth."
> 
> The image of his handsome smiling face flashed by in my head, true enough, no one can guarantee that he's trustworthy. It's just that Koizumi was able to provide a decent explanation for all the things that I've encountered so far. Who could guarantee that it's the right explanation? Even Asahina-san told me not to believe him, but Asahina-san was the same, who could guarantee that Asahina-san's explanation is correct?



Even Koizumi isn't sure of himself!



			
				Koizumi said:
			
		

> "Even I don't find our theory to be absolutely correct; but for the current situation, there would be no place for me if I didn't accept this theory for now. I was initially set up to be with one side, and I am not able to switch sides. It's just like how a white chess piece cannot become a pawn for the black side."



*Waits for the double standard to kick in and all of these quotes to be ignored/dismissed*


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## Ippy (Oct 31, 2007)

... Endless Mike, is there a reason you multi-posted yet again?


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## Endless Mike (Oct 31, 2007)

The maximum character limit


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## Ippy (Oct 31, 2007)

I cut them down to two.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 31, 2007)

> Red herring.



Double standards.

Show me TOAA making every character in the marvel omniverse.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 31, 2007)

Rice Ball said:


> Double standards.
> 
> Show me TOAA making every character in the marvel omniverse.








TOAA is the writer who draws everything into existence. Every character in the MU is just a drawing on a piece of paper to TOAA.

TOAA also represents the company as a whole.


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## Blue (Oct 31, 2007)

And Haruhi is actually more powerful than TOAA, since she's not a Marvel property! 

I'd respond to that river of rambling tripe, but 85% of it is just repetition of concepts already rejected. 

Give Haruhi full knowledge and control of her powers (which you seem willing to do for the sake of argument), and that makes her TOAA. Jaspers did not create shit. Jaspers could not prevent the destruction of shit. Haruhi created everything. And what's more, she exists (or existed) outside of time and space, since she made those too.

Now you're going to say "OMG, Haruhi is TOAA nao? lololololololol" - but that's the gist of it. She made the Haruhi universe, as he made the Marvel universe. Since there is no fourth wall concept in Haruhi, it stops at her, rather than the actual real-world writer.

I'd say TOAA would win because I'm guessing Marvel has higher earnings than the Haruhi franchise.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 31, 2007)

Blue said:


> And Haruhi is actually more powerful than TOAA, since she's not a Marvel property!
> 
> I'd respond to that river of rambling tripe, but 85% of it is just repetition of concepts already rejected.



Translation: "I'm unable to refute his arguments, so I'll just ignore them". 



> Give Haruhi full knowledge and control of her powers (which you seem willing to do for the sake of argument), and that makes her TOAA.



Still waiting for even a shred of evidence of this....



> Jaspers did not create shit. Jaspers could not prevent the destruction of shit.



He destroyed and recreated the entire 616 universe (the key universe) and spread his warp across the entire omniverse.

"He is lonely, but he is also *GOD*"



"And he _makes_ friends easily"



"You can call me Mad. I made you":



"I made *everything* actually."

"I made the sky, the tiger, the lamb.......... I made the stars"





> Haruhi created everything.



One universe is not "everything". Jaspers is easily above a universe creator.

Not to mention many characters stated later on that she didn't even create the universe, just altered it.



> And what's more, she exists (or existed) outside of time and space, since she made those too.



Now you're simply making things up. She has a physical body that is clearly _within_ time and space (considering she experiences time in a linear fashion, and even that her powers used to belong to someone else). In fact this is even explicitly stated in the novel:



			
				Koizumi said:
			
		

> "Because Suzumiya-san is a part of this world, proof that she isn't the creator of this world. If she is a God who has created this world, she should be in a place outside of this world, yet here she is living with us in this world. We can only conclude that she can only alter the world to a certain extent, and this is unnatural and very strange."





> Now you're going to say "OMG, Haruhi is TOAA nao? lololololololol" - but that's the gist of it. She made the Haruhi universe, as he made the Marvel universe. Since there is no fourth wall concept in Haruhi, it stops at her, rather than the actual real-world writer.



That's Marvel *OMNIVERSE*, which is made up of infinite megaverses, each made of infinite multiverses, each made of infinite universes, as well as countless other dimensions and realms.

The fact that you can't see the difference is really quite sad. Tons of Marvel characters can create universes, but they are nowhere near TOAA.



> I'd say TOAA would win because I'm guessing Marvel has higher earnings than the Haruhi franchise.



TOAA would win because TOAA is an avatar of the company itself. A fictional character cannot harm a RL entity.


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## Rice Ball (Oct 31, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> TOAA is the writer who draws everything into existence. Every character in the MU is just a drawing on a piece of paper to TOAA.
> 
> TOAA also represents the company as a whole.



I didn't see anything in the comic that said that.
I saw someone writing a comic, no mention beyond the 616 universe. So the TOAA is a universal being who wrote the fantastic 4? I guess Jaspers in your mind is above him?



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You will of course now provide canon evidence that she wished to relinquish her powers (which she didn't even know she had).



You should know all of Haruhi's shown abilities were subconsiously created for her entertainment, giving another being her powers could be just another form of entertainment to her.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 1, 2007)

Rice Ball said:


> I didn't see anything in the comic that said that.
> I saw someone writing a comic, no mention beyond the 616 universe. So the TOAA is a universal being who wrote the fantastic 4? I guess Jaspers in your mind is above him?



Don't be an idiot. TOAA is the artist/writer. You can see that he is drawing the storyline of a future Marvel comic, and it becomes real right in front of your eyes. His pencil is "The Wellspring of all Reality". TOAA created Jaspers, and wrote the stories he is in.



> You should know all of Haruhi's shown abilities were subconsiously created for her entertainment, giving another being her powers could be just another form of entertainment to her.



So, in other words, you're simply making things up and not providing the evidence I asked for.

How, pray tell, could she have willingly given up her powers *IF SHE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW SHE HAD THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE!?*

Stop making things up and prove it with a canon quote.


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## mfair4d (Nov 1, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> So, in other words, you're simply making things up and not providing the evidence I asked for.
> 
> How, pray tell, could she have willingly given up her powers *IF SHE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW SHE HAD THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE!?*
> 
> Stop making things up and prove it with a canon quote.



Let me ask you a question
What was the end result of Disappearance?


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## Rice Ball (Nov 1, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> Don't be an idiot. TOAA is the artist/writer. You can see that he is drawing the storyline of a future Marvel comic, and it becomes real right in front of your eyes. His pencil is "The Wellspring of all Reality". TOAA created Jaspers, and wrote the stories he is in.



To quote someone 'Stop making things up and prove it with a canon quote' Waiting for an omniversal reference....(I'm gunna wait about as long as the answer to is Kami Tenchi omnipotent from you?)



Endless Mike said:


> So, in other words, you're simply making things up and not providing the evidence I asked for.
> 
> How, pray tell, could she have willingly given up her powers *IF SHE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW SHE HAD THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE!?*
> 
> Stop making things up and prove it with a canon quote.



I'm providing you with an educated guess using the evidence so far gathered, you can't disprove it either.
Your talking about a god trying to amuse itself with mortality, its not at all far fetched so think something like that could happen, as she got them back its was likely planned not random. This isn't the hard evidence your after, but its far more than you have braught to the table.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 1, 2007)

mfair4d said:


> Let me ask you a question
> What was the end result of Disappearance?



Yuki, through her own will, allowed Kyon to return the universe to normal.

Haruhi had nothing to do with it.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 1, 2007)

Rice Ball said:


> To quote someone 'Stop making things up and prove it with a canon quote' Waiting for an omniversal reference....(I'm gunna wait about as long as the answer to is Kami Tenchi omnipotent from you?)



You honestly don't believe TOAA created the omniverse?

Then who the hell did?

TOAA *is* Marvel, TOAA is the creator of the Living Tribunal, who is empowered to protect the omniverse.



"And 'tis a humbling thought to consider how much greater still
the power of the *Creator of all Universes* must be
than that of all of his creations combined"

Is that good enough for you?



> I'm providing you with an educated guess using the evidence so far gathered, you can't disprove it either.



I don't have to. The burden of proof is on you.



> Your talking about a god trying to amuse itself with mortality, its not at all far fetched so think something like that could happen, as she got them back its was likely planned not random. This isn't the hard evidence your after, but its far more than you have braught to the table.



Except there is absolutely *not a shred of evidence for this whatsoever other than your wishful thinking*.

And what I have "brought to the table" are canon scans and quotes from both sides which all support my position, and the only arguments against me are based on speculation and completely ridiculous ideas that contradict the canon in many cases.


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## mfair4d (Nov 1, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> Yuki, through her own will, allowed Kyon to return the universe to normal.
> 
> Haruhi had nothing to do with it.



The end result was that Kyon chose to return to the world where Haruhi had here powers.  In other words having her powers "stolen" resulted in forcing the boy she loved into realizing he wants her.  I don't see how having her powers stolen is a representation of her powers.  
She doesn't even need her powers to have her powers continue to work for her.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Nov 1, 2007)

@ Endless Mike
You're saying I am "ignoring cannon" but the cannon makes no freaking sense. The Universe is clearly defined in the dictionary and the meaning can be parapharsed as Anything/Everything. There is no room for interpretation or variance on the definition; it's as "absolutle" as a physical law like light speed. Actually, fiction can explictly go aginast the aforementioned imposition, but in those case they must identify and prove to do so.

So yeah, Haruhi verse has not set aside physical laws or "absoultle" real definitions. Haruhi can manipulate the universe and there is no association with numbers as contrived by Marvel. So anything less then being able to manipulate the universe as defined by it's definition of everything/anything is too weak for Haruhi. So with regards to Marvel, they've gone against  the "absolutle" real and in fact lessened the scope of universe. You cannot expand on everything/anything...  omniverse and multiverse are subsets of the universe. It's the same damn way you can't claim lightspeed as anything but what's it really is with undermining the concept.. thus making the overall relativity of speed irrelvant.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 2, 2007)

mfair4d said:


> The end result was that Kyon chose to return to the world where Haruhi had here powers.  In other words having her powers "stolen" resulted in forcing the boy she loved into realizing he wants her.  I don't see how having her powers stolen is a representation of her powers.
> She doesn't even need her powers to have her powers continue to work for her.



Except they weren't working for her. She was powerless in the new universe.

Stop making things up.



Mocktrust-Ignis said:


> @ Endless Mike
> You're saying I am "ignoring cannon" but the cannon makes no freaking sense. The Universe is clearly defined in the dictionary and the meaning can be parapharsed as Anything/Everything. There is no room for interpretation or variance on the definition; it's as "absolutle" as a physical law like light speed. Actually, fiction can explictly go aginast the aforementioned imposition, but in those case they must identify and prove to do so.
> 
> So yeah, Haruhi verse has not set aside physical laws or "absoultle" real definitions. Haruhi can manipulate the universe and there is no association with numbers as contrived by Marvel. So anything less then being able to manipulate the universe as defined by it's definition of everything/anything is too weak for Haruhi. So with regards to Marvel, they've gone against  the "absolutle" real and in fact lessened the scope of universe. You cannot expand on everything/anything...  omniverse and multiverse are subsets of the universe. It's the same damn way you can't claim lightspeed as anything but what's it really is with undermining the concept.. thus making the overall relativity of speed irrelvant.



No, a universe is one bounded set of space/time and physical laws. A multiverse is a collection of such sets. You're just semantic whoring to get around the unavoidable fact that Haruhi has no feats that put her anywhere near Jaspers.



If you have two earths, with different histories and events, but situated in the same position in space and time, they are not part of the same universe. They are part of different universes.

Honestly, do you realize how stupid you sound? Attempting to deny the very concept of a multiverse/omniverse when it is integral to the fictional continuity of one of the battle's participants is just stupid. It's the same as saying "There's no such thing as the Force in Narutoverse, so a Jedi or Sith would be powerless there".

It's an inherent assumption in all vs. debates that both sides' abilities work *as demonstrated.*

You're just trying to come up with an excuse to arbitrarily dismiss MJJ's feats.


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## ∅ (Nov 2, 2007)

Man, I wish Mr Master would be here, he would actually back up EM.
And he's good at convincing (he've done it for years)


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## mfair4d (Nov 2, 2007)

Just to let you know my brain works differently than most peoples.  I frequently skip several steps of explanations, because they are just obvious to me, but other people are left in oblivion.  

Question:
Doesn't Disappearance prove that it is Haruhi's powers that cause Yuki to be an alien?


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## Havoc (Nov 2, 2007)

Haruhi loses.


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## Protect_The_Butter (Nov 2, 2007)

After a few pages of this argument I would say Haruhi looses. She looks like an idiot anyways.


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## Enclave (Nov 2, 2007)

Havoc said:


> Not knowing how to control your powers isn't CIS.
> 
> If someone can't control their powers in the source material, since when do we make them able to in OB fights?



Exactly, this is why often in Franklin Richards threads you see people stipulating that he is in some level of control of his abilities.  If that isn't said then we are forced to use current Franklin who is at his current level of control which is 0 and he is essentially just a super genius child.

Anyways, I saw much talk earlier in the thread about Franklin, he DOES have the potential to surpass MJJ.  However it won't be until he is MUCH older than he currently is and even then he may never reach his full potential (though since he is the 616 Franklin you can likely assume that he will indeed reach his full power, it's weird but the 616 verse versions of characters often are much better than their alternate verse others.

Oh and if this Haruhi has had her powers taken from her before then that just doesn't bode well for her.  Even an alternate verse Franklin was able to take the powers of the Phoenix once to augment his own abilities (and he did it with ease).  If an alternate verse Franklin who was equal with Hyperstorm could do that then I would think MJJ from 616 could likely pull a similar style feat as well.


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## Fang (Nov 2, 2007)

Havoc said:


> Haruhi loses.



Haruhi becomes MJJ's servant. He'll simply will it.


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## Arishem (Nov 2, 2007)

The annoying bitch is finally getting what she deserves.


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## Vicious (Nov 2, 2007)

Im thinking about making a who can beat Haruhi thread.


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## Havoc (Nov 2, 2007)

He turns Haruhi into spaghetti and eats her.


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## Vicious (Nov 2, 2007)

I wonder if dr. strange with couple years of prep can beat her.


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## Havoc (Nov 2, 2007)

Anybody could beat her.


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## mfair4d (Nov 2, 2007)

Haruhi doesn't even need to know about her powers to *construct a universe from scratch*.  This sets her above the standard omnipotent.  A normal Omnipotent character is weaker than her.  In other words someone has to be *more powerful than Omnipotent to be more powerful than her*.  I only know of one such fictional character.


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## Fang (Nov 2, 2007)

And MJJ still stomps all over her with his infinite universes warping.


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## Enclave (Nov 2, 2007)

mfair4d said:


> Haruhi doesn't even need to know about her powers to *construct a universe from scratch*.  This sets her above the standard omnipotent.  A normal Omnipotent character is weaker than her.  In other words someone has to be *more powerful than Omnipotent to be more powerful than her*.  I only know of one such fictional character.



I don't think you realise what a true omnipotent is.


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## Vicious (Nov 2, 2007)

She isnt omnipotent, she might be a nigh-omnipotent, but nowhere near a true omnipotent. And constructing one universe from scratch doesnt make you omnipotent, the chousins could do that easily, but they arent a true omnipotent.


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## mfair4d (Nov 2, 2007)

Creating everything that exists, and the ability to change it however you want isn't omnipotent?


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## Enclave (Nov 2, 2007)

Nope.

If there is any sort of limit in any possible way on what you are capable of doing then you are not omnipotent.

So, if she doesn't have Omniscience then she cannot be Omnipotent.  If she cannot create these "sliders" then she isn't Omnipotent.  If she can have her powers taken from her by somebody else then she isn't Omnipotent.

See, if you are Omnipotent then there is NO limits on you.  You can do ANYTHING.  There would be nothing at all beyond your grasp, you could do anything and would know how to do anything.  That is Omnipotence and from what I have read here she most certainly isn't Omnipotent.  As powerful as she is still still has limits and thus isn't Omnipotent.


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## Fang (Nov 2, 2007)

So we're in agreement? She doesn't come close to omnipotence or omniscience. Maybe a low tier nigh omnipotent being.


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## Ulfgar (Nov 2, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> So we're in agreement? She doesn't come close to omnipotence or omniscience. Maybe a low tier nigh omnipotent being.



Lower than EU Luke with KC?


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## Fang (Nov 2, 2007)

What the hell is KC?


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## Ulfgar (Nov 2, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> What the hell is KC?



Kaiburr Crystal. I need to stop making up Abbreviations.


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## atom (Nov 2, 2007)

There is no such thing as Omnipotence, Presence, or Science. Thats that.


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## mfair4d (Nov 2, 2007)

Wait a second if she can't create sliders, than what is kyon?


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## Sylar (Nov 2, 2007)

mfair4d said:


> Wait a second if she can't create sliders, than what is kyon?



A slider is someone from another universe.  There is only one universe in Haruhiverse that has a couple of mini pocket realities inside it.


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## mfair4d (Nov 2, 2007)

Sylar said:


> A slider is someone from another universe.  There is only one universe in Haruhiverse that has a couple of mini pocket realities inside it.



So kyon didn't go to another universe and come back.  Wow sure had me fooled.


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## Fang (Nov 2, 2007)

Ulfgar said:


> Kaiburr Crystal. I need to stop making up Abbreviations.



It was said that a Force users would amplifiy like what, a thousand fold? I don't know how powerful people like Yoda, Luke, Palpatine or Windu would be with it.

I imagine that Nilihus would be eating star systems, not just planets though.


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## Kira-chan (Nov 22, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> It was a closed space, just a protodimension. Not a real universe until the old one disappeared.


Like I pointed out on this thread, all statements in the novel say that it was an entirely new and separate universe in the process of being created.  There's absolutely nothing to indicate that it was overwriting the old one.

Does this mean I'm on the wrong forum?


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## Azure Flame Fright (Nov 22, 2007)

Kira why did you bring back a thread that died 20 days ago?
BTW 300 post


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## Kira-chan (Nov 23, 2007)

AJpinecrest2 said:


> Kira why did you bring back a thread that died 20 days ago?
> BTW 300 post


I found it in a search and it seemed like that point had never really been addressed.  I'm not aruging the outcome of the match though since I don't know Jaspers well enough to pick a winner there, only the accuracy of that particular statement.


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## Azure Flame Fright (Nov 23, 2007)

Jaspers is god, Haruhi is god, the only difference is that Jaspers knows he is god, and apparently having more universes makes one god > than another god


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## ∅ (Nov 23, 2007)

Endless Mike said:


> Controlling one universe =/= omnipotent


That's what I've been trying to say for years ... And you didn't listen.
Same actually goes for multiverse ...
Or rather you aren't necesserely omnipotent because you control a universe/multiverse.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Aug 20, 2011)

Necro thread brewing shitstorm

Also no.


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## Engix (Aug 20, 2011)

In b4. Lock


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## Cocoa (Aug 20, 2011)

My old dormmate almost got me to watch Haruhi.... thankfully I didn't. All her fanboys are so annoying that the character must be as well. She even looks annoying. Based on what I have heard about 616 Jasper's powers he thankfully kills her.

Word of advice...do not necro threads.


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## Golden Saga (Aug 20, 2011)

Haruhitards , when will they ever learn .


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