# SM Jiraiya vs Itachi [poll]



## t0xeus (May 29, 2020)

Let's see where the general consensus stands on this before we have the Ziggy vs Shazzy debate started. Then we can see if the debate influenced the general consensus after it's over.

*Match: *SM Jiraiya vs Living Itachi
*Location: *
*Knowledge: *Manga
*Mindset:* IC + Killing Intent
*Distance: *25m
*Restrictions: *Kotoamatsukami

State your reasoning if you want to.


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## Reddan (May 29, 2020)

Itachi absolutely stomps and it's never been a particularly close debate either. It was something, which once made sense to argue over, but further revelations showed just how astronomical the gap between the two were.

Itachi is placed alongside Nagato several times, by both himself, Kabuto AND Nagato.

Itachi is clearly displayed as superior to people stronger than Jiraiya.

Itachi has hype from characters like Zetsu.

3T Itachi is getting the better of ninjas stronger than Jiraiya. 

Up until the Kage Summit, I could see why some people might wrongly think otherwise. After the WA, it's genuinely absurd to compare the two.


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## Turrin (May 29, 2020)

If Jiriaya gets to start in SM I would favor him.

Feat Wise regardless of who you think is stronger SM Jiriaya is a good match up for Itachi.  Elder Toads counter all Genjutsu but Tskuyomi. SM Sensing has been shown to be a good counter to the Stand-Alone Mangekyo Techniques; and help avoid Susanoo attacks. It’s been shown that Susanoo has a weakness to attacking the users Feet and to Sound Based Techniques (Itachi outright losing to a Sound Genjutsu without Sasuke there); SM Jiriaya is able to use both, being proficient in Doton (Yomi Numa) and through Ma/Pa Sound Ninjutsu/Genjutsu (Frog Call / Frog Song). Additionally while utilize SM actually helps the user recover, Mangekyo takes a huge toll on a Living Itachi due to Illness and Eyesight, so SM Jiriaya has the added win/draw condition of simply forcing Itachi to use Mangekyo too much and it killing him. Finally one of Itachi’s best moves Izanami likely wouldn’t work against Jiriaya due to his mind-set/will, and I personally believe that Jiriaya probably has the Will to endure Tskuyomi (he willed himself back to life), so I give SM Jiriaya a bit of extra upside potential even if he is hit by that illusion.

Portrayal wise I think these two are shown to be around a similar level; and Jiriaya is being given an advantage here, while Itachi is disadvantaged (Illness). Like wise I think SM and Mangekyo have been portrayed as similar power ups, with the narrative leaning towards SM being better; additionally Itachi clearly holds respect for SM as a powerful ability as shown by his reaction to Kabuto having it. And finally SM Jiriaya was able to beat Pain Rikudo given knowledge, and here he has a-lot knowledge on Itachi’s abilities, from
P1. I think it’s safe enough to say portrayal wise Jiriaya starting in SM at least has a marginal edge over an Itachi that’s Sick. Even if you don’t but they are very close by portrayal, it doesn’t even matter tho as you can make an argument based on match up alone

Reactions: Like 5


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 29, 2020)

It's such a niche position to believe Jiraiya has a chance these days. 

So niche that anyone who holds is a little bias towards Jiraiya.  

Anyway, Itachi stomps. I won't say anything else on the topic.

Reactions: Like 1


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## DaVizWiz (May 29, 2020)

Always believed Jiraiya wins as far back as I can recall, and you wouldn’t have to search too long to find a post of mine regarding why. He’s a better shinobi in practically every way, even in Genjutsu, albeit from his summons.

Might go sideways if Itachi were fanfic healthy though.

Regardless Sakura shits


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## The_Conqueror (May 29, 2020)

Yomi Numa Frog call counters Susanoo 
Sage Sending, LOS Blockers Large Scale ninja techs counter Amatersu
Itachi is outlasted or dealt  with frog song or Itachi leaves opening which jiraiya capitalizes on


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## t0xeus (May 29, 2020)

Anyways I have Itachi winning via Amaterasu and Susanoo mostly.

x Yomi Numa is broken out of via Susanoo or hardened with Katon

x with the utmost amount of wank, Frog Call STILL just restricts movement, so mentally controlled Susanoo just pulls Itachi out of the sound waves

x Frog Song needs too long of a prep to be a thing in this match-up

x Susanoo walls the rest of Jiraiya's arsenal and cuts him up thanks to its speed as Yamata no Orochi's heads were sliced up in mere moments


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 29, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> Always believed Jiraiya wins as far back as I can recall, and you wouldn’t have to search too long to find a post of mine regarding why.



Some shit about scaling FCD to a million sishisenju punches?

Like I said, before.  Only impartial people that hold this opinion these days.



> He’s a better shinobi in practically every way



I know you like to scale ninja outside of the conventional 1 v 1 battles that have become the life stock of this place.

So what categories are we talking about?

Tactical leadership? : Itachi's game
Infiltration :  Itachi's game again; genjutsu control gg (see Ao's statement)
Fodder Mass murder : Itachi replicates every feat Jiraiya has with better precision (ninja stars/taijutsu)
Taiming bijuu : Genjutsu gg
Killing Summons : genjutsu gg or shruriken to th eyes (see nagato)

1 v 1 battles : Itachi can end them with a finger and a Kunai to the hand of the person trying to escape.



> even in Genjutsu, albeit from his summons.



The plethora of genjutsu itachi has one vs one as well as the long ranged mass genjutsu implicated by Shikaku disagrees 

Meanwhile you might be able to distort the chant with enough wind magic.



> Might go sideways if Itachi were fanfic healthy though.



Who existed as per zetsu. gg.


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## Sufex (May 29, 2020)

@Artistwannabe either way?

Explain


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## Onda Vital (May 29, 2020)

I see Itachi stronger but not that much.

Itachi wins 6-7 / 10 times.


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## Lyren (May 29, 2020)

We need a "Jman wins everytime" in the poll

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sufex (May 29, 2020)

Miel said:


> We need a "Jman wins everytime" in the poll


I.....agree


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## Artistwannabe (May 29, 2020)

Sufex said:


> @Artistwannabe either way?
> 
> Explain


I'm being generous here by not giving Jiraiya his KK feats.


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## Shazam (May 29, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Let's see where the general consensus stands on this before we have the Ziggy vs Shazzy debate started. Then we can see if the debate influenced the general consensus after it's over.
> 
> *Match: *SM Jiraiya vs Living Itachi
> *Location: *
> ...



General consensus = 16. *Fallacy of consensus gentium. Arguing that an idea is true on the basis (a) that the majority of people believe it and/or (b) that it has been universally held by all men at all times.*


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## Shazam (May 29, 2020)

so I'm not voting


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## DaVizWiz (May 29, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Some shit about scaling FCD to a million sishisenju punches?
> 
> Like I said, before.  Only impartial people that hold this opinion these days.
> 
> ...


Time isn’t really relevant regarding this matchup, the chapters regarding Jiraiya’s power in particular were published when you were still wetting the bed.

In all measurable categories he’s superior bar potentially combat intelligence, but that’s just conjecture as neither were implied elite at it.

That includes combat measures and non-combat measures, such as value to a village, missions completed, wars won, etc.

The only real thing Itachi has over Jiraiya is match wins, but he’s far worse at everything else including the general responsibilities of a ninja which a dying near blind MS user cannot logically hope to fulfill at Jiraiya’s level.

Itachi is a get out of jail card assassin, his power is very finite, as potent as it may be for that short deployment, but once the card is played you don’t get it back. Jiraiya on the other hand is a deck of cards that keeps on shuffling back into your hand, a legitimate powerhouse Konoha had around for a variety of eras including it’s weakest era after Minato’s death and the Sannin break up, where Jiraiya stood alone unrivaled as the only high caliber champion for the village left behind, and that extends to beyond Itachi’s departure, where the village was once again severely weakened until Naruto and The Masters fully developed.

This is primarily the reason Itachi was never a stronger shinobi, aside from the fact that he’s worse than SM Jiraiya in every combat measure. He’s a self destructive KG abuser, he failed to attain power that is sustainable and his decline in health likely wasn’t separate from that. but certainly adds to his lack of value, and by extension powerscale. Itachi was a blip on the screen, Jiraiya was a power that influenced the entire world.

Reactions: Like 3


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## t0xeus (May 29, 2020)

Shazam said:


> General consensus = 16. *Fallacy of consensus gentium. Arguing that an idea is true on the basis (a) that the majority of people believe it and/or (b) that it has been universally held by all men at all times.*


Who said anything about the general consensus concluding what is true and what's not?

It's just a research of how many people are going to be persuaded by the debate.


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## Turrin (May 29, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Anyways I have Itachi winning via Amaterasu and Susanoo mostly.
> 
> x Yomi Numa is broken out of via Susanoo or *hardened with Katon*
> 
> ...


I never want to hear you complain about Tsunade Reverse Shousen again after the bold lol


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## t0xeus (May 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I never want to hear you complain about Tsunade Reverse Shousen again after the bold lol


How's that comparable?

Itachi's Katon mastery is on the level of Jiraiya's Doton.


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## Turrin (May 29, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> How's that comparable?
> 
> Itachi's Katon mastery is on the level of Jiraiya's Doton.


In what universe is Itachi relatively tiny little katon having any drying effect on Jiriaya Massive swamp lol. In what universe is Jiriaya just sitting there as Itachi slowly tries to dry said massive swamp with his relatively tiny Katon lol

Both this and Reverse Shousen are the same high points for creativity; low points for plausibility/feasibility


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## t0xeus (May 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> In what universe is Itachi relatively tiny little katon having any drying effect on Jiriaya Massive swamp lol. In what universe is Jiriaya just sitting there as Itachi slowly tries to dry said massive swamp with his relatively tiny Katon lol



Itachi only needs to dry the small area around himself, not the entire swamp. Either regular fireball or Amaterasu will instantly get him out.



> Both this and Reverse Shousen are the same high points for creativity; low points for plausibility/feasibility


Not really, actually I'd argue that claiming Yomi Numa is immune to effects of drying is closer to the Shosen NLF argument.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (May 29, 2020)

Itachi doesn't have enough stamina to keep fighting and anybody who says he will just one shot when it was shown he gets fatigued from using MS JUST ONCE has no idea what they are talking about. Yes Itachi is one of the most versatile and best fighters in the series but please stop with the GG BS. If SM Jiraiya lands just one hit on Itachi he is dead and his genjutsu won't do jack with six eyes.

And for the people who say "well Itachi can just go susanoo, spam amatarasu, spam yasaka beads, spam finger genjutsu, and spam totsuka blade at the same time  in every battle ever which means he defeats the verse" really need to rethink their way of debating.


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## Turrin (May 29, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Itachi only needs to dry the small area around himself, not the entire swamp. Either regular fireball or Amaterasu will instantly get him out.
> 
> 
> Not really, actually I'd argue that claiming Yomi Numa is immune to effects of drying is closer to the Shosen NLF argument.


-Yes and that would take a shit ton of time consider how deep the swamp can be, and the fact that Jiriaya can control it and move it around so that Itachi is constantly needing to dry new area

- No the only NLF here is that any of Itachi Katons can dry a massive swamp (even just a portion of it) the user can control quick enough to be a viable solution in the middle of combat

This isn’t even talking about how Itachi would be burning the fuck out of himself while doing so lol


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## t0xeus (May 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> -Yes and that would take a shit ton of time consider how deep the swamp can be, and the fact that Jiriaya can control it and move it around so that Itachi is constantly needing to dry new area
> 
> - No the only NLF here is that any of Itachi Katons can dry a massive swamp (even just a portion of it) the user can control quick enough to be a viable solution in the middle of combat
> 
> This isn’t even talking about how Itachi would be burning the fuck out of himself while doing so lol


When did Jiraiya control the swamp by moving it around?


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## Turrin (May 29, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> When did Jiraiya control the swamp by moving it around?


KK did it not reason to think Jiriaya can’t do so. Also most of the skilled Doton users can control the earth anyway.

But even if you don’t buy that (out of convenience for your argument); the other points counter the use of Fire. Because ether Itachi would need to light himself on Fire due to spitting super high temps flames all around himself; or if he kept the flame safe enough to not burn him, he would take hours on end to dry any portion of the swamp lol.


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## Trojan (May 29, 2020)

Canon: Jiraiya > itachi
fanboys: itachi >>> Sannin combined



of course, my stand is with Canon...


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## Transcendent Shinobi (May 29, 2020)

Hussain said:


> Canon: Jiraiya > itachi
> *fanboys: itachi >>> Sannin combined*
> 
> 
> ...



OMG this so much. If Oro actually did his research and found a way to block Itachi's genjutsu he would have defeated Itachi. SM Jiraiya would wreck a sick itachi.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Trojan (May 29, 2020)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> OMG this so much. If Oro actually did his research and found a way to block Itachi's genjutsu he would have defeated Itachi. SM Jiraiya would wreck a sick itachi.


technically, without the plot shield itachi has, once he chopped Oro's arm the pain should have ended the Genjutsu. 

But it is what it is... 
Kishi did him dirty...


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## Illusory (May 29, 2020)

Lol the same people that think their beliefs are 'canon' are arguing that Yomi Numa, which canonically worked for a moment on a blinded Jonin-level, can solo strong Kages. They also deny that healthy Itachi ever existed, as if Zetsu made it up when canonically saying that sick Itachi against Sasuke seemed to be "severely injured" from his usual self.

Just like how they ignore that Kabuto's ET was shown/stated to be weaker than living versions, even the Edo that Kabuto specifically bragged that he had beefed up beyond its living prime, yet Edo Itachi physically tangled with a far superior Sage, as well as outperform KCM Naruto who was stated to surpass Jiraiya the power-up _before_.


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## t0xeus (May 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> KK did it not reason to think Jiriaya can’t do so. Also most of the skilled Doton users can control the earth anyway.
> 
> But even if you don’t buy that (out of convenience for your argument); the other points counter the use of Fire. Because ether Itachi would need to light himself on Fire due to spitting super high temps flames all around himself; or if he kept the flame safe enough to not burn him, he would take hours on end to dry any portion of the swamp lol.


I don't buy that for the exact same reason I don't buy that Itachi can make his Katon change direction like if it was a guided missile - he never showed he can do that.

Itachi just needs to make some space between his body and the swamp - using Ribcage Susanoo. Then he blows Katon/Amaterasu on the swamp surrounding his Ribcage and jumps out.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 29, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> Time isn’t really relevant regarding this matchup, the chapters regarding Jiraiya’s power in particular were published when you were still wetting the bed.



I'd say the same for you if I were convinced you'd broken the habit by now. 



DaVizWiz said:


> In all measurable categories he’s superior bar potentially combat intelligence, but that’s just conjecture as neither were implied elite at it.In all measurable categories he’s superior bar potentially combat intelligence, but that’s just conjecture as neither were implied elite at it.
> 
> That includes combat measures and non-combat measures, such as value to a village, missions completed, wars won, etc.



Well there's pretty much  no use to talking about non combat measures as it pertains to "strength", I;E diplomatic capabilities or what not.  You also seem to backing past accomplishments as some grand metric to compare the two at their peaks.  Yes, of course, Jiraiya completed more missions we know little details of and lived through more wars, but does that mean Itachi couldn't have filled his shoes, or done better?  That's the real question.  I'd say Hanzo at least would still be having PTSD from which ever illusion the boy decides to cast on him at the very least. 



DaVizWiz said:


> The only real thing Itachi has over Jiraiya is match wins, but he’s far worse at everything else including the general responsibilities of a ninja which a dying near blind MS user cannot logically hope to fulfill at Jiraiya’s level.



It's nice of you to trot out the same... tired... arguments without actually explaining them via examples or simulations of scenarios.  I'm guessing you're blunt enough to think because Jiraiya has better capabilities when it comes to destroying infrastructure and creating indiscriminate chaos that means he's overall more valuable. But let's wade through the flowery of exposition of ninja responsibilities and dress their duties to the bare bones.  Ninja's are killers.  Itachi is the more effective killer. That includes fighting Kage level duels, where Jiraiya will need his full might to beat people Itachi can with a glance or a finger, or even in wars with battlefields full of the lower ranks.  Sasuke can beat 1000 ninja without lethal force (taijutsu, no higher cursed states) and yet is just competing with sick Itachi in that realm, giving us a fair gauge of healthy Itachi's fodder killing capabilities .  The different is that he can practice the art with finer precision (taijutsu/shuriken) than big fire or big swamp.  Which could endanger both enemies and friendlies, not to mention the buildings and homes of one's village. Not only that, but a genjutsu that can affect enough targets to discombobulate a nation sounds neat too.  If it came to chosing someone plan and execute a battle strategy, then Itachi wins there.  His orchestration of the Sasuke fight being the premier feat, and one that Jiraiya isn't coming close to.  If it came to choosing someone to tame the bijou of any village that might break out at anytime and unleash havoc, then I choose Itachi again. Jiraiya may manage to subdue the beast with heavy injury and half a nation gone. 

We don't even need to talk about the MS. 



DaVizWiz said:


> Itachi is a get out of jail card assassin, his power is very finite, as potent as it may be for that short deployment, but once the card is played you don’t get it back. Jiraiya on the other hand is a deck of cards that keeps on shuffling back into your hand, a legitimate powerhouse Konoha had around for a variety of eras including it’s weakest era after Minato’s death and the Sannin break up, where Jiraiya stood alone unrivaled as the only high caliber champion for the village left behind



The "champion" who only needed be better than Old Hiruzen to get there. 

Shit man. That's like, totally beyond what Itachi can do with a glance. 






DaVizWiz said:


> and that extends to beyond Itachi’s departure, where the village was once again severely weakened until Naruto and The Masters fully developed.



I actually reckon Tsuande is better. 



DaVizWiz said:


> Itachi was a blip on the screen, Jiraiya was a power that influenced the entire world.



When you talk about his "power" do you mean his personal power, which is the only thing relevant in this thread, or are you talking about his novels?

He influenced the world in battle? 

how? 

By losing to Hanzo?


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## Turrin (May 29, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> I don't buy that for the exact same reason I don't buy that Itachi can make his Katon change direction like if it was a guided missile - he never showed he can do that.
> 
> Itachi just needs to make some space between his body and the swamp - using Ribcage Susanoo. Then he blows Katon/Amaterasu on the swamp surrounding his Ribcage and jumps out.


We haven’t seen someone use Grand Fire-Ball that way; we have seen someone use Doton Yomi Numa that way; and in general we have seen Earth Users control their Jutsu this way. So that’s not a good comparison.

If he uses Susanoo; then Susanoo can just lift him out of the swamp. So I don’t see why he would be doing this Katon stuff at that point. Unless the adhesion is too great for him to move Susanoo, but then it’s going to be too great for him to move his arms to use a Katon release too


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## t0xeus (May 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> We haven’t seen someone use Grand Fire-Ball that way; we have seen someone use Doton Yomi Numa that way; and in general we have seen Earth Users control their Jutsu this way. So that’s not a good comparison.
> 
> If he uses Susanoo; then Susanoo can just lift him out of the swamp. So I don’t see why he would be doing this Katon stuff at that point. Unless the adhesion is too great for him to move Susanoo, but then it’s going to be too great for him to move his arms to use a Katon release too


1- Other users can be more skilled and crafty with the technique though.
I'll allow you to use feats for Jiraiya from other characters only if you also accept that Itachi can shoot Totsuka from Yata-bow like Sasuke shoots his arrows in Susanoo lol.

2- Well he can use Katon/Amaterasu around himself without burning his body as well. Susanoo was just brought up in case you actually think that using fire in his near vicinity will kill him.


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## Gianfi (May 29, 2020)

Itachi wins


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## Illusory (May 29, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> In all measurable categories he’s superior bar potentially combat intelligence



I'd say it's closer to the opposite.

*Ninjutsu (subset: seals)*
Jiriaya has a better _shown_ variety of jutsu than base Itachi, but Itachi has the hype of super-fast execution-speed of ninjutsu, which means he'd be pre-empting and clone-feinting Jiraiya more easily. Itachi has a 5/5 ninjutsu like the Sannin, Hiruzen, Kakuzu, etc. so we don't really know his un-shown arsenal, although having the 3T for 13 years saturated by Kage-levels probably made it solid. If we're including Susano'o and to a lesser degree Amaterasu, Itachi clearly wins for quality-jutsu _as well as_ execution.

*Taijutsu (subsets: speed, strength, weapons)*
Edo Itachi (weaker than healthy living) grappled with KCM Naruto and Bee simultaneously, as well as deflecting SM Kabuto evenly, whereas base Jiraiya got bloodied up by base Gai and SM Jiraiya was getting blocked by a blind Human Path. Novel Itachi was shattering boulders with chakra-strikes as a kid, and Itachi also trumped shared vision with expertly curved kunai and carved a horn of Sage Kabuto with a snatched sword whereas Jiraiya never showed skill with weapons.

*Genjutsu (subset: genjutsu defense)*
Shikaku believed Itachi was the only individual that could control a literal army with genjutsu without sensors detecting him, Nagato thought Itachi's genjutsu could hugely affect the world war, KCM Naruto said Itachi's genjutsu could shut down perfect jinchuriki, Sage Kabuto said Itachi could control him, Itachi's eyes can control tailed beasts, he has far more delivery methods, etc. Itachi's 3T/MS provide very strong genjutsu defense as well, whereas Jiraiya doesn't really have any special defenses known.

*Intelligence*
Jiraiya did mildly well against Pain's shared vision, but Itachi figure it out in an instant and beat it with kunai. Obito also hyped Itachi to have setup and planned out an entire Kage-level fight, including every contingency. Sage Kabuto said Itachi could had 'true occular powers' and could read souls and use that information in battle. Jiraiya also starts every fight with a foolish dance. Itachi was also given the 'every jutsu has a weakness and can be defeated' schtick.

*Stamina*
Itachi was using MS 3 times in one day as a child when Sasuke was limited to 2 Chidori per day. And even in p1, Itachi used MS three times (the most powerful shown versions of Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi at that) and a number of other jutsu with only 50% of his reserves given he used an exploding shadow clone early on, which is _far_ above the stamina of p1 Kakashi and most other p1 characters. Unless Itachi is literally and hour way from dying from ninja-tuberculosis, then his stamina arguably isn't notable inferior.

*Conclusion*
Jiraiya needs two perfect Sages to be literally attached to him and be gathering and pumping sage power into him for him to approach Itachi's natural ninja abilities, and even then, he arguably falls short in many if not all categories. Hence people arguing that Itachi was always an hour away from dying from disease and fighting a battle he was purposefully trying to lose convincingly, rather than listening to Zetsu say that the Itachi that fought Hebi Sasuke was like a "seriously damaged" normal/healthy version.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 29, 2020)

Illusory said:


> I'd say it's the opposite.
> 
> *Ninjutsu (subset: seals)*
> Jiriaya has a better _shown_ variety of jutsu, but Itachi has the hype of super-fast execution-speed of ninjutsu, which means he'd be pre-empting and clone-feinting Jiraiya in a ninjutsu stand-off. Itachi has a 5/5 ninjutsu like the Sannin so we don't really know his un-shown arsenal, although having the 3T for 13 years saturated by Kage-levels probably led to a decent arsenal.
> ...



@DaVizWiz thinks that destroying buildings with FCD means Jman's the overall better ninja.


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## Turrin (May 29, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- Other users can be more skilled and crafty with the technique though.
> I'll allow you to use feats for Jiraiya from other characters only if you also accept that Itachi can shoot Totsuka from Yata-bow like Sasuke shoots his arrows in Susanoo lol.
> 
> 2- Well he can use Katon/Amaterasu around himself without burning his body as well. Susanoo was just brought up in case you actually think that using fire in his near vicinity will kill him.


1- Susanoo has been shown to have different equipment depending on users; Yomi Numa hasn’t been; and from different users lol we all know that’s J-man in some form 

2- Amaterasu takes awhile to burn trees down; all of this is time consuming and not practical in battle and rely on using Susanoo anyway, which should be able to lift Itachi out of the swamp to begin with. So again this is just impractical silliness.

Yomi Numa is an effective stall tactic on Itachi, but isn’t going to defeat Itachi by itself, it will need to be combo’d with other Techniques.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 29, 2020)

Yomi Numa would get the deidara treatment; turned back on the caster with genjutsu before he can break out.


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## t0xeus (May 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Susanoo has been shown to have different equipment depending on users; Yomi Numa hasn’t been;


That's my point.
Different techniques have been shown to work differently depending on users, and that applies to all jutsus.



> and from different users lol we all know that’s J-man in some form


He already used techniques which Jiraiya hasn't even showed, like the pillar sealing jutsu. No reason at all to give his feats to Jiraiya.



Turrin said:


> 2- Amaterasu takes awhile to burn trees down; all of this is time consuming and not practical in battle and rely on using Susanoo anyway, which should be able to lift Itachi out of the swamp to begin with. So again this is just impractical silliness.
> 
> Yomi Numa is an effective stall tactic on Itachi, but isn’t going to defeat Itachi by itself, it will need to be combo’d with other Techniques.


Amaterasu burned through Jiraiya's fire-resistant material in moments, mud is going to be turned into nothingness in an instant.


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## DaVizWiz (May 29, 2020)

Illusory said:


> I'd say it's closer to the opposite.
> 
> *Ninjutsu (subset: seals)*
> Jiriaya has a better _shown_ variety of jutsu, but Itachi has the hype of super-fast execution-speed of ninjutsu, which means he'd be pre-empting and clone-feinting Jiraiya in a ninjutsu stand-off. Itachi has a 5/5 ninjutsu like the Sannin, Hiruzen, Kakuzu, etc. so we don't really know his un-shown arsenal, although having the 3T for 13 years saturated by Kage-levels probably made it decent.
> ...


Well Jiraiya has 2 battlefield/army scale wipers in Endan and YN, additionally SCOR is literally multiple times above something like Raikiri and can be fully manifested in front of him without hand seals so quickly that he didn’t even get to finish his wall busting flicker to the ground, then when we get into his bag of tricks with the gourd prison where he can win a match just by getting a hand on someone to BFR imprison them for the remaining duration of their life, which is literally a watered down version of what Obito does with Kamui GG, the triple stacked SM Attack Potency of Goemon, the battlefield control of mouth prison, the movement binding effect of frog call from the toads while he’s already using a different Jutsu on you or against you etc, we realize that Jiraiya’s power with Ninjutsu is far more versatile and powerful than a basic MS user who’s entire arsenal is rendered null simply by disrupting their field of vision.

Then you get into the gureilla tactics he can utilize where he has full sensory of what’s going on around him even while completely blinded, and most of his opponents do not, this is fairly useful for someone who has access to smoke bombs and battlefield scale dust clouds, you’re taking about a version of what Zabuza does with hidden mist, except it’s on a Sage level with a guy who can practically instantly defeat you from all ranges in a bevy of ways with a dozen different techniques in a split second while you can’t see shit.

Jiraiya has Bunshin as well, and he doesn’t really need to use them for misdirection or feinting, since he can easily misdirect with an LoS blocker that doesn’t affect his combat control due to Sage sensing, or have a toad on his shoulder feint with one of their Senjutsu attacks while he prepare and lands his own.

A lot of conjecture with those statements, there’s no way I think Itachi is controlling an army of shinobi over long distances he’s simply not powerful enough to do it. That being said Jiraiya possesses the superior Genjutsu technique as it does not require something as conditional as eye contact and it is simply more powerful than it, Nagato couldn’t even break his own technique which he has full chakra control over of out of it and it’s an AoE long range Genjutsu that can one shot an entire team of kage levels if it lands - Itachi possess not illusion with this kind of utility and power.

Well figuring out how to beat shared vision isn’t exactly a genius feat, as soon as Jiraiya found out about it he immediately set up measures to do so, Itachi did the same so there’s no real difference in results there. Outside of that Itachi appeared very knowledgeable, but not more intelligent than Jiraiya. The intuition no doubt Itachi was very good at, but we know Jiraiya was as well, when we consider the fact he was the first to predict the potential threat of Madara’s return or still standing presence, without any inciting information.

The stamina of course Jiraiya dominates at. He was literally never once portrayed or drawn as fatigued in combat, even when he was forced to fight full Pain while dismembered for a duration. If you include vitality into stamina then Jiraiya also wins, as he maintained his fighting spirit after losing an arm well prior, had a chakra rod put through his other shoulder, had his throat ripped out, and was plugged by 6 more chakra rods all in vital areas, and still remained alive and conscious and coherent after all that when he was further abused and blown into the lake by a rocket.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Turrin (May 29, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> That's my point.
> Different techniques have been shown to work differently depending on users, and that applies to all jutsus.
> 
> 
> ...


1- Susanoo is unique Dojutsu technique, while Yomi Numa a Doton Release Technique we have seen little variation between users there; and again the users are likely the same. So can we drop this comparison

2- This is a Technique Jiriaya showed and as I said it’s not surprising he can do this as many Earth Release users can manipulate earth

3- And it burned through a tree in much less time; the Toad Stomach shit was caused by it exploding the glass window; Amaterasu being slow burning is shown consistently outside of this


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## t0xeus (May 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Susanoo is unique Dojutsu technique, while Yomi Numa a Doton Release Technique we have seen little variation between users there; and again the users are likely the same. So can we drop this comparison





Turrin said:


> 2- This is a Technique Jiriaya showed and as I said it’s not surprising he can do this as many Earth Release users can manipulate earth


Just not how it works in NBD my dude, we try to avoid speculative areas.
Otherwise you'd have people running around saying Ei3 can use Black Lightning V2 armor because why the hell not, and Hiruzen goes 7G and oneshots everyone with Hirudora.

You can mention it as a side point and see if the debater agrees with it, but if not, then there's no reason to push others to accept that Jiraiya can do what others have done by improving on his techniques.



Turrin said:


> 3- And it burned through a tree in much less time; the Toad Stomach shit was caused by it exploding the glass window; Amaterasu being slow burning is shown consistently outside of this


What? What exploded glass window?


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## Shazam (May 29, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Who said anything about the general consensus concluding what is true and what's not?
> 
> It's just a research of how many people are going to be persuaded by the debate.



 Just making that clear


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## Illusory (May 29, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> Well Jiraiya has 2 battlefield/army scale wipers in Endan and YN



I would call them fodder-wipers (since they IMO won't work on a battlefield of high Jonin or Kages), and when ninja are well into sub-Kage, people like base BoS Sasuke can taijutsu them all to the ground without spilling a drop of their blood without much effort. So 'battlefield jutsu' like that are more flash-flavor than truly game-changing.



DaVizWiz said:


> then when we get into his bag of tricks with the gourd prison where he can win a match just by getting a hand on someone to BFR imprison them for the remaining duration of their life, which is literally a watered down version of what Obito does with Kamui GG



That seem like a NLF stretch to me. You're placed inside a toad's acidic stomach, so you can presumably cut your way out or otherwise burst out of the toad.



DaVizWiz said:


> we realize that Jiraiya’s mastery of Ninjutsu is far more versatile and powerful than a basic MS user who’s entire arsenal is rendered null simply by disrupting their field of vision.



A Gyuki-amped Nagato was pierced by an MS jutsu when Itachi had no field of vision, and an MS jutsu also saved Sasuke from SM Kabuto when Itachi had no field of vision.



DaVizWiz said:


> A lot of conjecture with those statements, there’s no way I think Itachi is controlling an army of shinobi over long distances he’s simply not powerful enough to do it.



That was Shikaku's original belief though. And Ao only talked him down because of the sheer scope and distance between armies. It was clear from the conversation that Itachi was pretty much a legend in large-scale genjutsu control that could affect wars, which backs up Nagato's earlier comment.



DaVizWiz said:


> Nagato couldn’t even break his own technique which he has full chakra control over of out of it.



We really don't know how affected the true Nagato actually was, or even the other Paths.



DaVizWiz said:


> Well figuring out how to beat shared vision isn’t exactly a genius feat, as soon as Jiraiya found out about it he immediately set up measures to do so



But figuring out and doing it in a tiny fraction of the time that Jiraiya did is a genius feat.



DaVizWiz said:


> Outside of that Itachi appeared very knowledgeable, but not more intelligent than Jiraiya.



The fact that a 17-year-old (or even when considerably younger) is frequently considered to be better in various ways than 54-year-old legends speaks of Itachi's superior intelligence IMO.



DaVizWiz said:


> The stamina of course Jiraiya dominates at. He was literally never once portrayed as fatigued in combat, even when he was forced to fight Pain while dismembered for a duration.



SM naturally replenishes stamina during fights so I'm not sure if that's a fair comparison. We know Jiraiya said it was a "huge effort" for him to use the toad-stomach jutsu, implying his stamina couldn't pump out his jutsu endlessly.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 29, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Sasuke can beat 1000 ninja without lethal force (taijutsu, no higher cursed states) and yet is just competing with sick Itachi in that realm, giving us a fair gauge of healthy Itachi's fodder killing capabilities . The difference is that he can practice the art with finer precision (taijutsu/shuriken) than big fire or big swamp.





Illusory said:


> I would call them fodder-wipers (since they IMO won't work on a battlefield of high Jonin or Kages), and when ninja are well into sub-Kage, people like base BoS Sasuke can taijutsu them all to the ground without hurting a single one without much effort. So 'battlefield jutsu' like that are more flash-flavor than truly game-changing.





Great minds my man. 

What Jman can do with big flames and quick sand Itachi can do with karate kicks and knife swipes.  Although jman will kill every non combatant or allie with his army busters, while Itachi could capture everyone alive.


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## Turrin (May 29, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Just not how it works in NBD my dude, we try to avoid speculative areas.
> Otherwise you'd have people running around saying Ei3 can use Black Lightning V2 armor because why the hell not, and Hiruzen goes 7G and oneshots everyone with Hirudora.
> 
> You can mention it as a side point and see if the debater agrees with it, but if not, then there's no reason to push others to accept that Jiraiya can do what others have done by improving on his techniques.
> ...


Your entire argument that flames can dry Yomi Numa is speculative Lol

No we don’t try to avoid speculative areas in the NBD; everything we do here is speculative. We try to support them as much as we can. In this case it’s A) The Same Technique, B) Doton Techniques haven’t shown any variation between users (except for scale / casting speed), and C) Likely the user is the same anyway. 

And I’m not pushing you to accept anything, I’m outlining why your point about using Katon is impractical and giving many points of evidence why and this just one of them. The argument is suppose to be read as Katon is impractical as a counter because A) It would burn the user, B) It would take too long in the heat of battle, C) The user can shift around the swamp making it more difficult. If one of these points is considers dubious please look to the other points.

Finally and here is the nail in the coffin for this; Jiriaya with a single hand-seal can transform solid rock into the swamp; so if Itachi goes to Dry it up, guess what, he just uses that same hand-sign transforming the dried rock into a swamp again, because even if you don’t grant him the ability to shift around the swamp, he can at least do that much.

—-

There was a glass window exposed at the end of the hall way Itachi and Kisame were running towards, likely he used Amaterasu on that causing it to explode:


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## Illusory (May 29, 2020)

I thought Turrin could read the databooks? (Or is that only for his coincidentally pro-Jiraiya translations?) The window-argument has been disproved for literally over a decade.


It's also consistent with Itachi's other feat of quickly incinerating Sasuke's fire-proof CS2 wing.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 29, 2020)

> There was a glass window exposed at the end of the hall way Itachi and Kisame were running towards, likely he used Amaterasu on that causing it to explode:





Was the window made of c4?


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## t0xeus (May 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Your entire argument that flames can dry Yomi Numa is speculative Lol


There's no speculation involved in that conclusion.
Fire heats up mud, and then the mud hardens. There's nothing in Yomi Numa properties stopping Katon from making this work.



> No we don’t try to avoid speculative areas in the NBD; everything we do here is speculative. We try to support them as much as we can. In this case it’s A) The Same Technique, B) Doton Techniques haven’t shown any variation between users (except for scale / casting speed), and C) Likely the user is the same anyway.
> 
> And I’m not pushing you to accept anything, I’m outlining why your point about using Katon is impractical and giving many points of evidence why and this just one of them. The argument is suppose to be read as Katon is impractical as a counter because A) It would burn the user, B) It would take too long in the heat of battle, C) The user can shift around the swamp making it more difficult. If one of these points is considers dubious please look to the other points.


We've seen techniques getting new mechanics despite them still being considered the same jutsu.

Good examples:
1) Ei4 being able to access V2/Raiton Shunshin using the same jutsu Ei3 uses
2) Adult Naruto being able to toss guided FRS while teen Naruto can't even toss FRS without SM

So there is absolutely no reason to give Jiraiya feats of what his upgraded-stronger-android version did.



Turrin said:


> Finally and here is the nail in the coffin for this; Jiriaya with a single hand-seal can transform solid rock into the swamp; so if Itachi goes to Dry it up, guess what, he just uses that same hand-sign transforming the dried rock into a swamp again, because even if you don’t grant him the ability to shift around the swamp, he can at least do that much.


This could work.
But he's not casting two techniques in a row before Itachi uses one jutsu and jumps out.



Turrin said:


> There was a glass window exposed at the end of the hall way Itachi and Kisame were running towards, likely he used Amaterasu on that causing it to explode:


It doesn't make sense why glass explosion would outperform MS ninjutsu .. besides:


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## Turrin (May 29, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> There's no speculation involved in that conclusion.
> Fire heats up mud, and then the mud hardens. There's nothing in Yomi Numa properties stopping Katon from making this work.
> 
> 
> ...


1- Totally depends on Liquid to Mud ratio

2- Yes that’s amping up the scale in Ei4 case; and in Naruto cases his Technique simply wasn’t completed until then

3- He’s not casting two technique in a row. He cast Yomi Numa; and then Itachi goes to use Fire Release after Jiriaya cast that Jutsu, and then Jiriaya simply manipulates the drying mud to become liquid again, that’s one technique. And again it’s going to take time for the Mud to dry (if it’s possible wand Itachi needs to do so 360 degrees around his body, which can he even turn 360 degrees when stuck in the swamp. There are tons of problems with this honestly 

3- Glass isn’t out performing the Jursu the Jutsu is having an interaction with the glass causing an explosion. And I really don’t care if you think it makes sense, I mean maybe it doesn’t, don’t matter tho because we have consistently seen Amaterasu burn slow in P2


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## Illusory (May 29, 2020)

Lol "b-b-but Amaterasu burns slower in p2" as if Yomi Numa wasn't downgraded from a relatively deep lake in p1 to a shallow puddle in p2. So by that logic, Jiraiya only now gets to use a puddle that's 4 inches deep, that caught a blinded Jonin-level that couldn't see it forming beneath him. It's his 'retconned' p2 Sage-Yomi-Numa.

And hey, Itachi's Amaterasu in p2 still incinerating a fire-proof CS2 wing, incinerated a crow, quickly killed the Cerberus, etc. so Itachi gets to retain a high burning-speed in p2 as well. Yeah, let's go with Turrin's argument.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 29, 2020)

It doesn't actually burn slower at all. 

It disintegrated Sasuke's CS wing which also blocked fire.  And itachi's fire ball produced craters in the ground.


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## BlackHeartedImp (May 29, 2020)

Commenting on this matchup is like coming back to that ex you know is no good for you but you just can't stay away for some god forsaken reason 

If anybody needs a visual, it looks like this:

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (May 29, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> It doesn't actually burn slower at all.
> 
> It disintegrated Sasuke's CS wing which also blocked fire.  And itachi's fire ball produced craters in the ground.



Dude make your opening post already..... 

Unless you need me to go first (which also means I go last)


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## Tri (May 29, 2020)

Once Itachi uses his MS he has better firepower and defense than Jiraiya with Susanoo and Ama. While I would favor Jiraiya in a straight cqc situation Itachi's physical stats should allow him to avoid any major injuries and Susanoo can also be use to defend against Jiraiya's attacks or just flat out be used offensively to overwhelm him, and given Itachi's feinted superior sages than Jiraiya there's the ever present danger for Jiraiya of being feinted into a fatal attack or a genjutsu to give Itachi a better opening to finish him off so I'd definitely favor Itachi in this matchup here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (May 29, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Who said anything about the general consensus concluding what is true and what's not?
> 
> It's just a research of how many people are going to be persuaded by the debate.



I can already tell you the answer. 


0.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 29, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Dude make your opening post already.....
> 
> Unless you need me to go first (which also means I go last)



This guy 



Challenges me to a debate. 

Tells me he's going to go first, on two separate occasions

" Dood make your opener already"


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 29, 2020)

Alright you prick @Shazam 

I would have done the opener two days ago if it were expected.  Give me some time and I'll knock your socks off.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shazam (May 29, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> This guy
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So slow yet so sure. . 

I hope you know that in a formal debate all of your meme'ing won't help you


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## Sufex (May 29, 2020)

Gianfi said:


> Itachi wins


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## Turrin (May 29, 2020)

There are more votes for Itachi then there are active posters in the NBD, ether someone is duping or literally there are 15+ posters who stalk the NBD waiting for a chance to vote Itachi, and do nothing else then leave lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (May 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> There are more votes for Itachi then there are active posters in the NBD, ether someone is duping or literally there are 15+ posters who stalk the NBD waiting for a chance to vote Itachi, and do nothing else then leave lol


You can see the people behind the votes if you click on the number. I know pretty much everyone who voted for Itachi there.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Isaiah13000 (May 29, 2020)

I'd say SM Jiraiya would win most of the time purely due to starting in SM, unlike normally, in which it'd be a tie. However, as for the general consensus, it always will be Itachi by a landslide no matter what for various reasons. But one character getting way more votes than the other doesn't mean that those on that side are anymore right than those on the other. I mean, if anything, if the general consensus among Naruto fans (based on YouTube and other sites) deduces that Kakashi and Guy are high/top tiers who can compete with the likes of Hashirama and Madara and demolish most of the Kage bracket with either Kamui or the 7th Gate then the general consensus, for all intents and purposes, is trash. What the majority thinks will never be a good indicator of where characters actually stand imho. 


Turrin said:


> There are more votes for Itachi then there are active posters in the NBD, ether someone is duping or literally there are 15+ posters who stalk the NBD waiting for a chance to vote Itachi, and do nothing else then leave lol


Some of the people who voted don't post that often anymore, they just saw the poll and voted is all.


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## Draco Bolton (May 29, 2020)

Itachi low diff. Mid diff if he is in a bad day.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 29, 2020)

Reddan said:


> Itachi absolutely stomps and it's never been a particularly close debate either. It was something, which once made sense to argue over, but further revelations showed just how astronomical the gap between the two were.


 I can already tell this will be bad. 


> Itachi is placed alongside Nagato several times, by both himself, Kabuto AND Nagato.


 Yet, Itachi needed the assistance of NTCM Naruto and TBM Killer B to actually defeat Nagato. Meaning that just because you're grouped up with someone, doesn't mean that you're on their level or equal to them. But of course you do not take this into account at all. 


> Itachi is clearly displayed as superior to people stronger than Jiraiya.


 Orochimaru is not stronger than him with Sage Mode taken into account. 


> Itachi has hype from characters like Zetsu.


 So does Jiraiya. 


> 3T Itachi is getting the better of ninjas stronger than Jiraiya.


 Orochimaru or Deidara are not superior to Jiraiya if that's what you're implying.  


> Up until the Kage Summit, I could see why some people might wrongly think otherwise. After the WA, it's genuinely absurd to compare the two.


Lol, if anything you're just making this easier for the Jiraiya supporters to argue. The majority of us (at least here on this forum), are not arguing that Jiraiya is on par with or stronger than Edo MS Itachi who is basically EMS Itachi. We're saying that Jiraiya and living Itachi (who is sick) are equal, and that a fight can go either way or end in a tie. So to utilize a much stronger version of Itachi like his Edo self to say he is superior, when we are discussing his weaker living self, doesn't make any sense to begin with.


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## Bonly (May 29, 2020)

Itachi would win more times then not, once he brings out the MS jutsu he'll be able to overwhelm Jiraiya while being able to counter almost anything he can do, Jiraiya would need to go for Frog Song off the bat if he wanted to win


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## blk (May 29, 2020)

The fact that Jiraya needs the pretty big advantage of starting in SM for this to be even a discussion, really tells everything you need to know about the real power relationship between them.

Even with him starting in SM, as far as i'm concerned the Sannin side of the argument has never proposed a convincing/realistic counter to a serious use of the MS abilities with KI.

I think most pro-Jiraya debaters look at Sick Itachi vs Hebi Sasuke and assume that that is how the former will fight against Jiraya, which can give the illusion of a scenario where (after the initial and mid battle exchanges) SM Jiraya is jumping left and right throwing Ninjutsu at a slow dying Itachi protected only temporarily by his Chakra construct who can do nothing but wait to be outlasted.

That is obviously not how the fight is gonna go, since Itachi doesn't want to outlast Jiraya to take Oro out of him.

In other scenarios, like against Nagato where he had no restrictions on his ability to act and his KI intentions, we saw Itachi as an incredibly efficient and quick character in achieving the critical blows necessary to take down the enemy.

From the Kunai taking away Nagato's vision, to a rapid blindside with Susanoo, fast analysis of CT and lastly an immediate Totsuka shot the moment the opportunity presented itself.

Something like the above is more like to happen in a fight to the death between SM Jiraya and Itachi, with the latter using his highly skilled trickery and diversions to get a killing shot asap.
Which could be with any MS ability, it's entirely untrue (and again based on a scripted battle) that Itachi shies away from using MS if convenient to end the fight, and keeps it as a last resort after he is already exhausted and perhaps injured (like vs Hebi Sasuke).

And seeing how Itachi could feint a Perfect Sage in Kabuto... i have strong doubts SM Jiraya can do much to avoid getting played by the Uchiha.

There is also the point that Susanoo simply exceeds everything SM Jiraya has, he can only stop an Itachi rushing to him with Susanoo by using Frog Song pretty much. Which is simply not gonna happen given the Genjutsu's prep time and all.
So even something so simple is a legitimate strategy to take out SM Jiraya, against which he can do little to nothing.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Illusory (May 29, 2020)

blk said:


> The fact that Jiraya needs the pretty big advantage of starting in SM for this to be even a discussion, really tells everything you need to know about the real power relationship between them.



Minutes of prep for SM, _and _a nice large starting distance, _and_ a decent knowledge advantage, _and_ many are presuming Itachi is in the very bad condition that he was against Hebi Sasuke.



blk said:


> That is obviously not how the fight is gonna go, since Itachi doesn't want to outlast Jiraya to take Oro out of him.



Itachi also wanted to lose to Sasuke semi-realistically. He likely could have outlasted him much more efficiently than he did i.e. don't spam Amaterasu around a forest, or use Tsukuyomi when you don't want Tsukuyomi to work, or just chill in v4 Susano'o against a completely drained and defeated Sasuke, etc.



blk said:


> he can only stop an Itachi rushing to him with Susanoo by using Frog Song pretty much. Which is simply not gonna happen given the Genjutsu's prep time and all.



Assuming Frog Song works on Itachi, as we don't know for sure if it truly worked on Nagato, and we know Itachi knew a counter for a better sage's sound genjutsu (that took effect instantly).

Reactions: Like 3


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## Zero890 (May 29, 2020)

Yomi Numa one shots, Jiraiya wins as per canon.



Hussain said:


> Canon: Jiraiya > itachi
> fanboys: itachi >>> Sannin combined



Itachi wankers living in their dream world


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## Zero890 (May 29, 2020)

Jiraiya can BFR Itachi just like he did with Pain who has 6 pair of Rinnegan eyes (underrated feat)

I can mention how Jiraiya counters Itachis existence but the manga already told us who wins


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## ATastyMuffin (May 29, 2020)

Can go either way in my opinion but if and only if Jiraiya starts in SM

If he doesn't and Itachi actively tries to stop him he's screwed

In any case the poll's heavily skewed towards Itachi so Sanninband mad


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## Zero890 (May 29, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> In any case the poll's heavily skewed towards Itachi



I mean there are the anti Sannin band and the Itachi wankers, obviously they are majority. It doesnt change the fact that Jman wins


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## Trojan (May 29, 2020)

blk said:


> There is also the point that Susanoo simply exceeds everything SM Jiraya has, he can only stop an Itachi rushing to him with Susanoo by using Frog Song pretty much. Which is simply not gonna happen given the Genjutsu's prep time and all.


regardless of the rest of nonsense in your post (as per always )
the Dark Swamp will bypass Susanoo.

I do not know how many times you need something to be repeated for you until you finally get it, but Susanoo will NOT protect itachi
from attacks that are coming from underneath him. 

So, please try to move on...


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## Transcendent Shinobi (May 29, 2020)

Hussain said:


> technically, without the plot shield itachi has, once he chopped Oro's arm the pain should have ended the Genjutsu.
> 
> But it is what it is...
> Kishi did him dirty...


How do I agree with you and get tons of hate but you then agree with me and get praise haha wtf.


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## Shazam (May 29, 2020)

blk said:


> The fact that Jiraya needs the pretty big advantage of starting in SM for this to be even a discussion, really tells everything you need to know about the real power relationship between them.
> 
> Even with him starting in SM, as far as i'm concerned the Sannin side of the argument has never proposed a convincing/realistic counter to a serious use of the MS abilities with KI.
> 
> ...



Not really. Nothing indicates given manga intel and fair distance that Jiraiya couldn't get to SM regardless.

And its typical of Itachi to start battles with 3T for a good amount of time. While living


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## Shazam (May 29, 2020)

anyways 50/50 like usual


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## Sufex (May 29, 2020)

Once the MS comes out jman gets fried. Mid diff


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## Shazam (May 29, 2020)

problem with people think Itachi can mid or low diff Sage Jiraiya is that Obito speaks to this and Pain neither disagrees and even suggests himself that Jiraiya was a difficult opponent to beat (and now they can focus on Konoha). This would imply that you have to believe Itachi can extreme diff Pain when that is far from the portrayal of the manga at that point.

This is incorrect ..

Pain = Itachi > Jiraiya

What is more correct

Pain > Jiraiya = Itachi

Give your thoughts on portrayal concerning how Pain relates to Itachi living @Shark


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## Zero890 (May 29, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Pain > Jiraiya = Itachi



Jiraiya>Itachi is more correct.


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## DaVizWiz (May 29, 2020)

Never agreed with the 50/50 prospect actually, don’t see how a match between two vastly different opponents such as this goes either way on average.

One is either stronger or counters the other better, and that goes for almost every matchup between fighters in the manga. And I see SM Jiraiya as a pretty good MS counter, quite similar to SM Naruto.

But as always Itachi is the 50/50 “could go either way” king, this extends back to my early days where Minato, Jiraiya, Kakashi etc. were all “either ways” for Itachi, which is simply not possible to say the least

There’s maybe one ninja for everyone who should even out with you indefinitely, and even that’s pushing it. This manga portrays combat as so versatile and conditional with it’s vast pool of magic casters and skill fighters that it’s practically impossible for an outcome to be in jeopardy imo. This isn’t DBZ with a numerical power level, where everyone flies, uses martial arts and the same energy blasts to kill each other, Naruto is expansively imaginary where all types of magic are in play to kill you, it’s not a manga with a combat structure that supports either way outcomes

Reactions: Like 1


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## Cichy (May 29, 2020)

I think this fight will go like this:

Jiraya desides to use one of his offensive ninjutsu, but before he can launch it, Itachi looks at him and his entire body is covered in black flames burning him to a crisp.


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## Shazam (May 29, 2020)

Cichy said:


> I think this fight will go like this:
> 
> Jiraya desides to use one of his offensive ninjutsu, but before he can launch it, Itachi looks at him and his entire body is covered in black flames burning him to a crisp.



Then Jiraiya takes off his clothes and its all good.


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## Cichy (May 29, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Then Jiraiya takes off his clothes and its all good.


The flames will already be on his skin, it’s no use.


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## Shazam (May 29, 2020)

Cichy said:


> The flames will already be on his skin, it’s no use.



Jiraiya > Samurai > flame


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## Shazam (May 29, 2020)

jigen >>>> Itachi

Koji


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## Reddan (May 30, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I can already tell this will be bad.


No just honest. It's nonsensical to compare the two.


> Yet, Itachi needed the assistance of NTCM Naruto and TBM Killer B to actually defeat Nagato. Meaning that just because you're grouped up with someone, doesn't mean that you're on their level or equal to them. But of course you do not take this into account at all.


No where does it say Itachi needed help to take out Nagato. Amaterasu encased Yasaka Beads probably take out Nagato's best weapon CT.

Apart from that Itachi countered everything Nagato had a lone.

I am separated from the books, but Itachi and Nagato were not just partnered together.

They were compared when Kabuto mentioned their unique MS and Rinnegan.

They were compared when Itachi says the two of them can do absolutely anything during the war.

They were compared when they said despite their powers they ended up being used by the Akatsuki.

They were also compared when Itachi says they were being saved to use their power later during the war.

Not to mention after Nagato, is defeated he thanks just Itachi.


> Orochimaru is not stronger than him with Sage Mode taken into account.
> So does Jiraiya.


Orochimaru is always portrayed as superior to Jiraiya. Always through out the manga at every point.

Even when Jiraiya uses SM, Nagato compares it to Orochimaru's transformation.

Even after the fight Pain says Jiraiya lived up to his reputation as a Sannin, a reputation he compared to Orochimaru.

Through portrayal we know Jiraiya failed where Naruto succeeded. Jiraiya could never defeat his friend/rival and bring him back.


> Orochimaru or Deidara are not superior to Jiraiya if that's what you're implying.
> Lol, if anything you're just making this easier for the Jiraiya supporters to argue. The majority of us (at least here on this forum), are not arguing that Jiraiya is on par with or stronger than Edo MS Itachi who is basically EMS Itachi. We're saying that Jiraiya and living Itachi (who is sick) are equal, and that a fight can go either way or end in a tie. So to utilize a much stronger version of Itachi like his Edo self to say he is superior, when we are discussing his weaker living self, doesn't make any sense to begin with.


Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya as every single statement, portrayal and the story implies. There's absolutely nothing in the manga to suggest otherwise. However, the gap is not big and even after witnessing SM, Pain puts them in the same tier.

Deidara is weaker but still very strong.

However, Itachi defeated these guys with his 3T.

Hydra Mode Orochimaru, which Pain compares to SM Jiraiya was defeated by sick dying Itachi seconds from death. He was absolutely stomped. This is something Itachi did after stomping IA Naruto (a Kage level ninja), Hebi Sasuke ( a high kage level ninja) and then Orochimaru's strongest form. He did that all on the day he was dying.

So SM Jiraiya isn't going to do better than Hydra Orochimaru, someone said literally dozens of times to be on his level or slightly stronger.

As for Ed Itachi, like all Edos he is weaker in all key stats, being slower and physically weaker. In no one battle did he use more MS jutsu than dying Itachi did on his last few hours.


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## Quipchaque (May 30, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I can already tell this will be bad.
> *Yet, Itachi needed the assistance of NTCM Naruto and TBM Killer B to actually defeat Nagato. Meaning that just because you're grouped up with someone, doesn't mean that you're on their level or equal to them.* But of course you do not take this into account at all.
> Orochimaru is not stronger than him with Sage Mode taken into account.
> So does Jiraiya.
> ...



That is nonsense. Itachi practically already killed Nagato before that with Amatérasu and he only came back because of edo powers. It is also fairly possible that Itachi could have used totsuka before Nagato uses chibaku. And having to gang up against someone's final trump card isn't exactly portrayal that should be considered 1+ tiers of strength difference. Literally 0 of Nagato's abilities worked except for this 1. And intelligence is also part of Itachi's strength. So he deserves credit for even finding that weakness of chibaku not pity.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Leaf Hurricane (May 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> KK did it not reason to think Jiriaya can’t do so. Also most of the skilled Doton users can control the earth anyway.


By KK you mean Kojin??


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## Trojan (May 30, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> But as always Itachi is the 50/50 “could go either way” king, this extends back to my early days where Minato, Jiraiya, Kakashi etc. were all “either ways” for Itachi, which is simply not possible to say the least


indeed. People have serious difficulty admitting that itachi could actually lose. 
So, they go for that nonsense


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## blk (May 30, 2020)

Hussain said:


> regardless of the rest of nonsense in your post (as per always )
> the Dark Swamp will bypass Susanoo.
> 
> I do not know how many times you need something to be repeated for you until you finally get it, but Susanoo will NOT protect itachi
> ...



Yomi Numa is countered by Itachi activating Susanoo, this will push away the swamp and let him jump out of it.

If it is used when Susanoo is already active, he could either de-activate and activate it again or use its hands to have the construct pick him up (this would require that Susanoo gets away from tho Itachi, which is something that has been shown to be possible so..).



Shazam said:


> Not really. Nothing indicates given manga intel and fair distance that Jiraiya couldn't get to SM regardless.
> 
> And its typical of Itachi to start battles with 3T for a good amount of time. While living



Nothing except the fact that Itachi can mind control Jiraya's only defense (while he is getting to Sage Mode) with a single look.

Then the Toad can squash Jiraya before he even realizes that the Genjutsu has happened (or dodge and null Sage Mode charging).

If Itachi has serious KI, base Jiraya ain't gonna get to SM in the majority of scenarios.

Also no reason why a base Jiraya with only manga Intel doesn't get the Oro treatment. He doesn't have anymore special protection or knowledge of Genjutsu than Oro did.

With the difference that losing a limb after paralysis is GG for Jiraya, unlike it was for Oro.


Btw when will you guys start the Challenger debate? I actually curious to see your in depth pro Jman arguments.



DaVizWiz said:


> Never agreed with the 50/50 prospect actually, don’t see how a match between two vastly different opponents such as this goes either way on average.



Exactly. Itachi wins decisively in most scenarios.


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## Trojan (May 30, 2020)

blk said:


> Yomi Numa is countered by Itachi activating Susanoo, this will push away the swamp and let him jump out of it.


Sigh, the desperation.. 

Susanoo ain't pushing shit. the very ground that itachi stands on will be turning into a swamp... 
do you see the ground moving away when itachi (or anyone else) uses Susanoo? Me neither... 



blk said:


> If it is used when Susanoo is already active, he could either de-activate and activate it again or use its hands to have the construct pick him up (this would require that Susanoo gets away from tho Itachi, which is something that has been shown to be possible so..).



what the fuck did I just read 
how is the arm going to pick him up exactly? and then what? float him to the shore? 


Not to mention, the swamp will effect Susanoo itself by the way...


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## Trojan (May 30, 2020)

*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*




Susanoo's chakra is covering part of the rock, and not the other. 
I.E, Susanoo wasn't pushing those rocks around as they were contacting with them


*Spoiler*: _2_ 



*Link Removed* 





itachi starts moving, and no rock is being pushed around


*Spoiler*: _3_ 



*Link Removed*





last panel, Susanoo's chakra is covering part of the rock, not pushing it away



I wonder if I will live to the day where itachi's fangirls are not full of shit...


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## 僕がキラだ (May 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> There are more votes for Itachi then there are active posters in the NBD, ether someone is duping or literally there are 15+ posters who stalk the NBD *waiting for a chance to vote Itachi,* and do nothing else then leave lol


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## Trojan (May 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> There are more votes for Itachi then there are active posters in the NBD, ether someone is duping or literally there are 15+ posters who stalk the NBD waiting for a chance to vote Itachi, and do nothing else then leave lol


I was surprised as well. 

I guess itachi's fangirls are sending private messages to each other so they can swarm the thread and vote for him.


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## hbcaptain (May 30, 2020)

Itachi is a tier above Jiraya.

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (May 30, 2020)

Wow... Jiraiya got low-diffed even in the poll.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (May 30, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Wow... Jiraiya got low-diffed even in the poll.



That was rather predictable don't you think? There aren't that many blinded fans that could possibly believe Jiraiya could ever win this with his underwhelming portrayal, hype and feats.


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## t0xeus (May 30, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That was rather predictable don't you think? There aren't that many blinded fans that could possibly believe Jiraiya could ever win this with his underwhelming portrayal, hype and feats.


Tbh I expected more people to vote for Jiraiya as it felt like more people here rate him higher, but it seems like it was just a small, but loud minority. 

Even a lot of Sannin supporters voted for Itachi, so that's nice.

Reactions: Like 2


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## blk (May 30, 2020)

Hussain said:


> *Spoiler*: _1_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This doesn't counter my point tho.

In Yomi Numa's case, Itachi feet and leg will be below surface level and thus the part of Susanoo the is generated at the feet or leg level will obviously push away the mud.

Madara demonstrated that with a flash activation of Susanoo (that Itachi has shown to be capable of doing) you can push away rocks or stuff that is around it:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Source 




If this works for hard rock (and a COR) then it's gonna work for soft mud too.


Also you can literally click on the votes and see pretty much only known members 

If anything in the Jiraya's side there are two known trolls and two very new users that i've never seen before who could as well be dupes


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## blk (May 30, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Wow... Jiraiya got low-diffed even in the poll.



Yep, this isn't even the first time it happens. 

It's just that with an honest look at the feats, the case for Jiraya isn't very convincing.


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## Trojan (May 30, 2020)

blk said:


> In Yomi Numa's case, Itachi feet and leg will be below surface level and thus the part of Susanoo the is generated at the feet or leg level will obviously push away the mud.


except it will not... 

if I have a power full of water, and there is a small rock in middle.
and then I took a glass (upside-down) and put it on top of the rock...

You think the water around the rock will be removed? 

Susanoo will appear that way.

It is not a force from inside out like ST... 

-your link is blocked

I am assuming you are referring to this page? 

*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*




if so, that was Onoki's jutsu beneath Asspulldara. And with Naruto's Odama Rasengan's force on top of Asspulldara
hence, the Piller Onoki made collapsed. 



blk said:


> Also you can literally click on the votes and see pretty much only known members
> 
> If anything in the Jiraya's side there are two known trolls and two very new users that i've never seen before who could as well be dupes


- ok? 

- at the end of the day the manga is what matters. All the votes in itachi's favors mean jackshit
as their opinion is, naturally, worthless...

We do have a cut-clear straight-forward statement in the manga to which he character is stronger...
no amount of fangirls can change the fact...

they are blissfully ignorant.


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## Shazam (May 30, 2020)

blk said:


> Yomi Numa is countered by Itachi activating Susanoo, this will push away the swamp and let him jump out of it.
> 
> If it is used when Susanoo is already active, he could either de-activate and activate it again or use its hands to have the construct pick him up (this would require that Susanoo gets away from tho Itachi, which is something that has been shown to be possible so..).
> 
> ...



Na, Jiraiya at least knows about Tsukyomi due to Kakashi. Jiraiya and his summons would be using vision blocking, FCD, YM, use the anime S/T summoning that took out ceberus Toad Oil etc and not just standing there waiting for Itachi to try something, they'd be moving like against Pain except multiple summons attacking them is harder to deal with than 3T Itachi, the only times Itachi would stop Jman from going to SM is if he thought oh shit I better use MS right now because this mofo fitting to kill my ass with senjutsu


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## Turrin (May 30, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That was rather predictable don't you think? There aren't that many blinded fans that could possibly believe Jiraiya could ever win this with his underwhelming portrayal, hype and feats.


Yet I don’t think anyone can effectively argue Jiraiya can’t win given these conditions.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (May 30, 2020)

Reddan said:


> Itachi absolutely stomps and it's never been a particularly close debate either. It was something, which once made sense to argue over, but further revelations showed just how astronomical the gap between the two were.
> 
> Itachi is placed alongside Nagato several times, by both himself, Kabuto AND Nagato.
> 
> ...


Itachi and Nagato are paired together, so Itachi=Nagato

Itachi and Kisame were paired together, so Itachi=Kisame

So Nagato=Kisame


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (May 30, 2020)

Cichy said:


> I think this fight will go like this:
> 
> Jiraya desides to use one of his offensive ninjutsu, but before he can launch it, Itachi looks at him and his entire body is covered in black flames burning him to a crisp.


Is that what Itachi wants to imagine before Jiraiya kills him?


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## Trojan (May 30, 2020)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Itachi and Nagato are paired together, so Itachi=Nagato
> 
> Itachi and Kisame were paired together, so Itachi=Kisame
> 
> So Nagato=Kisame


wait, wait...

Zetsu is paired with Kaguya

So, Kaguya = Zetsu

Zetsu admitted that one armed Base Minato (&Kakashi) > him

Conclusion:

Minato > Kaguya


(Minato's arm > Kakashi, so we can have Minato with 2 arms instead of Kakashi)


I approve of your post.

God bless!

Reactions: Like 3


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## Cichy (May 30, 2020)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Is that what Itachi wants to imagine before Jiraiya kills him?


How is Jiraya surviving Amaterasu? You know the jutsu that burns you to crisp if Itachi simply looks at you.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 30, 2020)

I think jiraiya believes he can get out of Tsukyomi with the partner method tbh...


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## The_Conqueror (May 30, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> I think jiraiya believes he can get out of Tsukyomi with the partner method tbh...


I am preety sure highrrups in village know about tsukyomi and most of all of was casted in front of jiraiya.


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## Shazam (May 30, 2020)

Cichy said:


> How is Jiraya surviving Amaterasu? You know the jutsu that burns you to crisp if Itachi simply looks at you.



.. take.. off..shirt.


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## Quipchaque (May 30, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Tbh I expected more people to vote for Jiraiya as it felt like more people here rate him higher, but it seems like it was just a small, but loud minority.
> 
> Even a lot of Sannin supporters voted for Itachi, so that's nice.



That actually deserves props wow. I'm genuinely surprised. Some memenin fans argue this ridiculous stuff even so it is about as realistic as Itachi being stronger than Madara/Hashirama. Glad that common sense has the upper hand.


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## Cichy (May 30, 2020)

Shazam said:


> .. take.. off..shirt.


I won't take off my shirt, I'm not into you.


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## Shazam (May 30, 2020)

Cichy said:


> I won't take off my shirt, I'm not into you.



Then I'll take off mine and force myself onto you...like Trump.


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## Jad (May 30, 2020)

37 votes to Itachi. Geesus!


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## Reddan (May 30, 2020)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Itachi and Nagato are paired together, so Itachi=Nagato
> 
> Itachi and Kisame were paired together, so Itachi=Kisame
> 
> So Nagato=Kisame


No Itachi from the moment we meet him and Kisame, is clearly said to he stronger.

I have several quotes showing Itachi and Nagato were compared in power and capable of doing anything. 

Both were called unstoppable several times.


Jad said:


> 37 votes to Itachi. Geesus!


Yeh because it's actually one of the more obvious things in the manga. There WAS a time where it could be debate, but that ended a long time ago.


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## Jad (May 30, 2020)

Reddan said:


> No Itachi from the moment we meet him and Kisame, is clearly said to he stronger.
> 
> I have several quotes showing Itachi and Nagato were compared in power and capable of doing anything.
> 
> ...


Jiraiya should have been stronger, stronger than Minato in my opinion. I reckon he should have been a secret weapon that comes in at the last second and is OP as shit. Like a proper old man badass.

Relying on summons did him no justice, especially having to use them go in SM.

At the end of the day, Summons are useless against Sharingan. Which is why I think Itachi has a major advantage against him.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (May 30, 2020)

Itachi has a myriad of ways of winning this.

YM physically reflects Sage Arts that are significantly limited in range and consider the fact that the tool his Susano'o fucking wields is a fucking mirror manifesting of the light reflecting of Jiraiya's spiritual arts. A 360° defense literally obfuscates his LOS while Itachi can physically percieve him inside manifesting a HQ sphere bubble balloon bypass illusion that literally controls his cerebrality which leads to him physically falling of a fucking cliff, or getting physically bisected by a trillion lava/acid swords, magically physically permeated on the heart, or like aforementioned cerebrality.

These are physically some of the optimal paths of victory that Itachi could logically apply in the simulation.


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Itachi and Nagato are paired together, so Itachi=Nagato
> 
> Itachi and Kisame were paired together, so Itachi=Kisame
> 
> So Nagato=Kisame



Ask the Sannin-band chief:





			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> I have been thinking for a while about making this thread and i would like to make two points with it. 1-That Kisame is actually the stronger of the Itachi/Kisame pair and 2-that Kisame may have more up his selve the members of the forms are giving him credit for. Lets first discuss Kisame's strength level. Many form members have concluded that Kisame is probably a strong Akatsuki member but no where near as strong as Itachi and some even think that Sasori/Kazuku/etc...(fill in random Akatsuki member) could beat him, but i don't think this is the case. I believe Kisame is probably one of the strongest Akatsuki members in the entire manga and easily out classes members like Sasori, Hiden, Dedaria, Orochimaru, Kazuku, Kannon, and yes even Itachi. Why do i believe this well lets look at Kisame's feats of strength and comments made about him.
> 
> 
> 1-He has been stated to have the highest chakra compacity of all Akatsuki members. Now when this statement was first made i and many other people were impressed, but thought okay the other members must not have insane chakra compacities but more like the average Jounin give or take a little per member(Ohh man was i wrong). Your telling me Kisame has a higher chakra compacity then Sasori the man capable of using his chakra to controll 100 puppets at once w/o even getting tired + hiroku + Sandaime Kazekage + himself as a puppet + he was suppose to use another 200 puppets if he didn't kill himself. Kishi your telling me that Kisame has more chakra then Kazuku who has the chakra of 5 different people and is able to spam S-class elemental ninjutsu and build up so much chakra that he create gaint tenticles in long range mode.
> ...





			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> So it looks like Kisame is the Stronger Member of his Duo with Itachi. Why do i say that well because kisame has Counters to all of Itachi's Abilities. Counters are as follows
> 
> 1- Itachi's Greater Speed and Sharigan Prediction - Water Prison Shark Dance
> 
> ...



Of course he backtracked hard when he realized Jiraiya-same cannot possibly lose.



Hussain said:


> I was surprised as well.
> 
> I guess itachi's fangirls are sending private messages to each other so they can swarm the thread and vote for him.



Imagine being this butt-hurt because your preferred fictional character isn't winning an online poll.



Shazam said:


> And its typical of Itachi to start battles with 3T for a good amount of time. While living



Not against Kisame (activated MS immediately), who he apparently respected more as a fighter than Jiriaya/Orochimaru.


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## Trojan (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Imagine being this butt-hurt because your preferred fictional character isn't winning an online poll.
> 
> 
> 
> Not against Kisame, who he apparently respected more as a fighter than Jiriaya.


my preferred fictional character is the Namkizae line (Minato, Naruto, and Boruto)
I thought that was fairly obvious...


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## Transcendent Shinobi (May 30, 2020)

Are people seriously bringing up the argument "Itachi can solo Nagato/Pain" SMH hahahahahaha oh man................

Edit: OMG I AM NOT RED ANY MORE HAHAHAHAHA YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 30, 2020)

Itachi > Nagato > Jman seems fair.


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Are people seriously bringing up the argument "Itachi can solo Nagato/Pain" SMH hahahahahaha oh man................



Edos were stated to automatically defend themselves yet Nagato was beaten by Itachi twice and also lost an arm that needed to be regenerated within two chapters, with the latter two feats being when Nagato was amped up on Gyuki chakra.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zero890 (May 30, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Wow... Jiraiya got low-diffed even in the poll.



I mean Itachi wins the poll, Jman wins in canon. The second is the important


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## t0xeus (May 30, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> I mean Itachi wins the poll, Jman wins in canon. The second is the important


Stop baiting.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 30, 2020)

*Masturbating.


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## Zero890 (May 30, 2020)

So you have people saying Itachi beats Nagato, imagine if it were Jiraiya, this would be a chaos


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## t0xeus (May 30, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> So you have people saying Itachi beats Nagato, imagine if it were Jiraiya, this would be a chaos


Itachi is closer to Nagato than Jiraiya is to Itachi. 

Saying Itachi can beat Nagato is the same as saying Jiraiya can beat Muu, Ei3 and other characters tier above him. Both opinions are optimistic at best, wank at worst.


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> So you have people saying Itachi beats Nagato, imagine if it were Jiraiya, this would be a chaos



The difference is Itachi actually has feats of jutsu KO'ing not just Nagato, but a bijuu-amped Nagato. I have Itachi lower than amped Nagato on tier lists, but to pretend its impossible for Itachi to beat Nagato is just ignoring canon, as Nagato clearly lacked the reflexes to counter some of Itachi's techniques.


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## Serene Grace (May 30, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Itachi is closer to Nagato than Jiraiya is to Itachi.


Nagato is 2 tiers above Itachi


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## t0xeus (May 30, 2020)

Cherry said:


> Nagato is 2 tiers above Itachi


Nah, unless you have way too many tiers.

High Kage - Itachi
Above high kage sits Nagato.


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## Zero890 (May 30, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Itachi is closer to Nagato then Jiraiya is to Itachi.



Canon disagrees



Illusory said:


> just ignoring canon,



In canon Itachi needed KCM Naruto and Bee so you are ignoring it


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## Serene Grace (May 30, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Nah, unless you have way too many tiers.
> 
> High Kage - Itachi
> Above high kage sits Nagato.


I meant 2 sub tiers but yea

Nagato fodderize the shit out of him. Stronger dojutsu and just way a better arsenal.


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> In canon Itachi needed KCM Naruto and Bee so you are ignoring it



In canon Itachi literally solo'd Nagato with Amaterasu and you're ignoring it. He was KO'd for a chapter before Edo regeneration caught up and woke him up. _You're _ignoring canon.


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## Zero890 (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> In canon Itachi literally solo'd Nagato with Amaterasu and you're ignoring it. He was KO'd for a chapter before Edo regeneration caught up and woke him up. _You're _ignoring canon.



You know Nagato could absorb it or take it off with ST all the time, right?


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> You know Nagato could absorb it or take it off with ST all the time, right?



You realize you're making up head-canon and ignoring actual canon, right?


If Nagato could counter the blast and not be KO'd then he would have, as stated by canon.

Accept the canon fact: Itachi soloed Nagato, albeit not the Gyuki-amped one. That doesn't mean Nagato can't be higher on tier lists, as I agree his overall arsenal is better.


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## Zero890 (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> You realize you're making up head-canon and ignoring actual canon, right?
> 
> 
> If Nagato could counter the blast and not be KO'd, he would have.
> ...



He did not because he was attacked by another ET that was not supposed to be a threat 

You cant be serious if you think Nagato cant absorb it nor repel it

Face the clearly obvious: Nagato neg diff Itachi.


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> He did not because he was attacked by another ET that was not supposed to be a threat



That's pure head-canon that is not stated anywhere. What is actual manga canon is that Edos are programmed to automatically counter offensive jutsu, with no specifications given.



Zero890 said:


> You cant be serious if you think Nagato cant absorb it nor repel it



If he reacts to it he can, which he canonically couldn't. I guess those v2 reactions only kicked in after absorbing Gyuki's v2 chakra, kind of like how v1 Lee kicked Madara in half.



Zero890 said:


> Face the clearly obvious: Nagato neg diff Itachi.



Too bad Kishi had Nagato fall like a sack of potatoes to Amaterasu, then get sealed by Totsuka. The literal only instance Itachi used help was against CT, which Nagato could only use in the first place due to Edo regeneration recovering from Amaterasu, and re-growing his arm from the initial Susano'o blitz.


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## ShinAkuma (May 30, 2020)

Looool

Magically Preta Path or ST doesn't work.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WhoFedAhri? (May 30, 2020)

Now, would you like those clones to use totsuka blade and yatta mirror or no.


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## Trojan (May 30, 2020)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Edit: OMG I AM NOT RED ANY MORE HAHAHAHAHA YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY


I was thinking of helping you before IIRC
but If I am not mistaken you said something against Minato that disgusted me... 
So, I didn't rep you.. 


But your fight against itachi's wankers recently was admirable, so you deserved the rep... U_U


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 30, 2020)

Most of my neg reps are from Hussain for putting Sadam in front of his name...


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## Trojan (May 30, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Most of my neg reps are from Hussain for putting Sadam in front of his name...




I remember only negging you once for being Islamophobic 
But maybe I am forgetting some old negs. You are an unpleasant guy, so it's possible I suppose...


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## Hardcore (May 30, 2020)

Hussain said:


> my preferred fictional character is the Namkizae line (Minato, Naruto, and Boruto)
> I thought that was fairly obvious...



can hokage minato solo the sannin?


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## Trojan (May 30, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> can hokage minato solo the sannin?


never believed it tbh... 

and no, B can't either.
So, Minato soloing A&B doesn't mean he can solo all 3 Sannin.

Thank you & good luck...


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## Hardcore (May 30, 2020)

Hussain said:


> never believed it tbh...
> 
> and no, B can't either.
> So, Minato soling A&B doesn't mean he can solo all 3 Sannin.
> ...



even the most hardcore sannin fans believe BM B has a chance against the sannin tho


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Considering how often edos were hit with non sealing offensive jutsu with no auto response it's obvious this is an anti sealing function not an all encompassing function.



"It's obviously what I say and not what the manga character says"

By your logic, all the good/independent Edos could have just chosen to be KO'd rather than be used as puppets for a bad guy. It should be clear that they had an auto-survive/defend mechanism in play, even without the 3rd Raikage stating that outright.



ShinAkuma said:


> Looool. Magically Preta Path or ST doesn't work.



You can't absorb or deflect what you don't react to, hence the Totsuka. The bulk of Amaterasu's damage done is in the initial burst, not the fledgling flames, hence it incinerating/busting through fire-proof flesh, but the left-over flames don't do as much.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (May 30, 2020)

I'll respond to other posts later when I get back to my laptop. But I just once again find it hilarious that the same people criticizing the Jiraiya supporters for being biased or deluded are in here saying that the Itachi = Nagato or that Itachi being comparable to Nagato posts are fine but the Jiraiya posts aren't.


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## Trojan (May 30, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> even the most hardcore sannin fans believe BM B has a chance against the sannin tho


NBD posters are often blown away by the size of explosions and firepower. And a good portion of them are limited in their imagination, they never think X is possible unless it is spoonfed to them.

That's why you see a lot of the Bijuus gets extremely overrated here, wherein the manga they got solo'd by the Akatsuki
whom by the war arc were trashed by the likes of Sai, Choji, Kankuro...etc 


Heck, before ET Minato came in, I had to debate the postes of that time that Minato can teleport TBBs (the one used by Naruto&B on the Gedu-Mazu). And they refused to believe that S/T barrier can deal with it because "Well, teleporting Kurama's TBB was it feats, it does not mean it can teleport Naruto&B's TBB)

and so on... 
In short, NBD does not have the best track records on those things. And historically, they were always way too emotional in favors of the uchiha and against the Sannin (and Hiruzen)...


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I'll respond to other posts later when I get back to my laptop. But I just once again find it hilarious that the same people criticizing the Jiraiya supporters for being biased or deluded are in here saying that the Itachi = Nagato or that Itachi being comparable to Nagato posts are fine but the Jiraiya posts aren't.



Itachi is closer to Nagato, then Jiraiya is to Itachi. Hence Itachi canonically KO'ing Nagato with Amaterasu, then sealing a Gyuki-amped Nagato him with Totsuka, and removing his arm in-between without Itachi himself receiving a scratch. The argument that there's _such a massive_ _gap_ isn't supported at all by those feats.


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## Trojan (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> "It's obviously what I say and not what the manga character says"
> 
> By your logic, all the good/independent Edos could have just chosen to be KO'd rather than be used as puppets for a bad guy. It should be clear that they had an auto-survive/defend mechanism in play, even without the 3rd Raikage stating that outright.
> 
> ...


this is what the manga says

*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*




altho itachi was freed from Kabuto's control, but he was still an ET nonetheless. Nagato, therefore, couldn't have done anything
based on the fact that an ET are not allowed to do anything to other ET.


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## Shazam (May 30, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Itachi > Nagato > Jman seems fair.



To who? @Itachi san88 and @dergeist lol


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## ShinAkuma (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> "It's obviously....



Let's just file this beside the fanfiction "they were talking about Kyuubi" nonsense.



> By your logic



That's not my logic?

The problem is your fundamental misunderstanding of what logic actually is.



> You can't absorb or deflect what you don't react to,



I thought you said it was automatic?





> hence the Totsuka.



Kabuto was driving.



> The bulk of Amaterasu's damage done is in the initial burst, not the fledgling flames, hence it incinerating/busting through fire-proof flesh, but the left-over flames don't do as much.



I don't know what mental gymnastics you're peddling this time and I don't care. Nagato was hit because Itachi was an ally.


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## dergeist (May 30, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Itachi > Nagato > Jman seems fair.



Factually accurate and canonically supported. Although it should be Itachi >> Nagato >>>>>>> Jman


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## Quipchaque (May 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yet I don’t think anyone can effectively argue Jiraiya can’t win given these conditions.



Lol only if we assume this is Sasuke-fight Itachi, Jiraiya starting in sage Mode and full knowledge. Otherwise that match up should still heavily favor Itachi imo. Someone who can dispatch of Orochimaru so easily and kill Sasuke on top of that is just not beatable for Jiraiya unless we give him the benefit of the doubt for his hax techniques that never worked against anyone relevant.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 30, 2020)

they were talking about the Kyuubi I think.


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## dergeist (May 30, 2020)

Joke options @t0xeus you should have Itachi wins all the time as the option.


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## Ren. (May 30, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Factually accurate and canonically supported. Although it should be Itachi >> Nagato >>>>>>> Jman


Pain shit shots Itachi before he even gets killed by his MS.

Chibaku Tensei is an on shot move against Itachi.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 30, 2020)

Shazam said:


> To who? @Itachi san88 and @dergeist lol



Both people smarter than you


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## dergeist (May 30, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Pain shit shots Itachi before he even gets killed by his MS.
> 
> Chibaku Tensei is an on shot move against Itachi.



The fanfic is strong with this one, his superior (Nagato) was already negged by Itachi. Let's not pretend otherwise.


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## Ren. (May 30, 2020)

dergeist said:


> The fanfic is strong with this one, his superior (Nagato) was already negged by Itachi. Let's not pretend otherwise.


That is not superior at all.

Pain is a 6 man team + Konan.

Nagato is a non-moving man that was fighting KM Naruto + Bee + Edo Itachi that can spam MS.


Hell Konan alone kills him:


There is no Kamui here for Itachi, his plot shield means shit and his sword seals what!

Izanagi means he loses Susanoo and gets low diffed by Pain after the loss of one eye.


This is how someone that is a tier above Itachi locks after only Konan.


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## Shazam (May 30, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Both people smarter than you



I suppose you're right if being an itachtard qualifies as being smart


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## Ren. (May 30, 2020)

Your fan fiction Itachi vs Pain does not exist:


This is a controlled Nagato that is fighting  KCM Naruto > Itachi, Bee~ itachi and Edo Itacho > Itachi that fought Sasuke.

Itachi was waiting to strike him in his openings.


So yeah you need 3 Itachi++ to even seal him and that is when you have the real body to target.

When you get the clones

He gets Chibaku and there goes Itachi.


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## dergeist (May 30, 2020)

Ren. said:


> That is not superior at all.
> 
> Pain is a 6 man team + Konan.
> 
> ...



Nagato is still his superior he took down 2 Jins like they were fodder. Lord Soloking had to step in and bail them out, while wrexking his arms. While 6 Man team pain was getting his ass handed to him by inferior beings. To neg pain it takes less than 1/2 an Itachi. Too bad for you, you can't change manga facts.


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## Ren. (May 30, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Nagato is still his superior he took down 2 Jins like they were fodder. Lord Soloking had to step in and bail them out. While 6 Man team pain was getting his ass handed to him by inferior beings.


Again it was 3 vs 1 and Nagato was controlled and had the real body to have the option to get sealed.


Itachi alive can't pressure him as 3 could, also now we are talking about 1 vs 6 clones Nagato + Konan, he gets creamed.


His clones are well versed he gets no opening because of the rinegan shared vision.

Konan can nuke his ass for 10m and he gets killed by the explosion or the loss of eye + chakra.

Itachi alive has zero changes to even arrive at Nagato's real body.


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## Shazam (May 30, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Nagato is still his superior he took down 2 Jins like they were fodder. Lord Soloking had to step in and bail them out. While 6 Man team pain was getting his ass handed to him by inferior beings. To neg pain it takes less than 1/2 an Itachi. Too bad for you, you can't change manga facts.



Jiraiya is lord soloking now.


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## dergeist (May 30, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Again it was 3 vs 1 and Nagato was controlled and had the real body to get sealed.
> 
> 
> Itachi alive can't pressure him as 3 could.
> ...



There was no 3 vs 1. It was 2 people who got handled. Itachi took out Nagato's eyes while simultaneously soloing him. There's nothing that puts him in Itachi's league. 

You need to try harder, too bad for you the manga shows Nagato getting negged


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## dergeist (May 30, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Jiraiya is lord soloking now.


Being spared by Orochimaru's inferior doesn't bode well for Fodderiaya


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## Ren. (May 30, 2020)

dergeist said:


> There was no 3 vs 1. It was 2 people who got handled. Itachi took out Nagato's eyes while simultaneously soloing him. There's nothing that puts him in Itachi's league.
> 
> You need to try harder, too bad for you the manga shows Nagato getting negged


Again stop deflecting 3 vs1 and Nagato was crippeled and vulnerable to seals.


vs Pain, Itachi has zero and I mean zero chances to even arrive at the real body.


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## Shazam (May 30, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Being spared by Orochimaru's inferior doesn't bode well for Fodderiaya



If you calling running away in fear, as sparing, then sure


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## dergeist (May 30, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Again stop deflecting 3 vs1 and Nagato was crippeled and vulnerable to seals.
> 
> 
> vs Pain, Itachi has zero and I mean zero chances to even arrive at the read body.



Sure it was that's why his eyes didn't  help him. And I didn't see his mobility being hindered when he was battling, so I suggest you stop denying the canon showing. Itachi raped Nagato neg difficulty. 

Anyway, until you have a scan of the soloking losing to Nagato you have nothing except


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## dergeist (May 30, 2020)

Shazam said:


> If you calling running away in fear, as sparing, then sure



Who's scared of Fodderaiya, considering he's bmfar beneath Oro


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## Ren. (May 30, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Sure it was that's why his eyes didn't  help him. And I didn't see his mobility being hindered when he was battling, so I suggest you stop denying the canon showing. Itachi raped Nagato neg difficulty.
> 
> Anyway, until you have a scan of the soloking losing to Nagato you have nothing except




It seems I have the scan.



dergeist said:


> until you have a scan of the soloking losing to Nagato you have nothing except


I was not debating Nagato but Pain vs Alive Itachi.


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## Shazam (May 30, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Who's scared of Fodderaiya, considering he's bmfar beneath Oro



The people running away apparently


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## Turrin (May 30, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Lol only if we assume this is Sasuke-fight Itachi, Jiraiya starting in sage Mode and full knowledge. Otherwise that match up should still heavily favor Itachi imo. Someone who can dispatch of Orochimaru so easily and kill Sasuke on top of that is just not beatable for Jiraiya unless we give him the benefit of the doubt for his hax techniques that never worked against anyone relevant.


The thread is about SM Jiriaya, so yes the assumption is that he starts in SM. Other then that any version of Itachi is beatable for SM Jiriaya due to Frog-Song; is he guaranteed to win, nope, but it’s wank to say he absolutely can’t win


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## dergeist (May 30, 2020)

Ren. said:


> It seems I have the scan.
> 
> 
> I was not debating Nagato but Pain vs Alive Itachi.



That's not really evidence of anything, since Nagato was moving fine during the fight. Nice try, but more fail

Main is nothi f special he was getting dealt with a new SM Naruto. Far inferior to KCM Naruto who was getting his ass handed to him by Nagato

You had better go back to the drawing board, until then



Shazam said:


> The people running away apparently



Sparing Fodderaiya, makes the fodder superior to Oro. You learn something new everyday


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## Zero890 (May 30, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Jiraiya is lord soloking now.



That was base Jiraiya, now imagine SM Jiraiya or Kashin Koji...


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## Ren. (May 30, 2020)

dergeist said:


> That's not really evidence of anything, since Nagato was moving fine during the fight. Nice try, but more fail
> 
> Main is nothi f special he was getting dealt with a new SM Naruto. Far inferior to KCM Naruto who was getting his ass handed to him by Nagato
> 
> You had better go back to the drawing board, until then


Again not talking about Nagato nor Edo Itachi.




Konan one-shots Itachi.

Pain is on another level.


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## dergeist (May 30, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Again not talking about Nagato nor Edo Itachi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fixed (completed the sentences) and agree 

The tears are delicious

Until you have facts, see ya


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## Ren. (May 30, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Fixed (completed the sentences) and agree
> 
> The tears are delicious
> 
> Until you have facts, see ya


Yes, they are when Itachi's only kill is himself.


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## Itachi san88 (May 30, 2020)

Shazam said:


> To who? @Itachi san88 and @dergeist lol


I don't believe Itachi>Nagato and i never said it. I'm not "Itachi wanker" dude


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> I thought you said it was automatic?



That's what the 3rd Raikage said, but the auto-response is still based on their reflexes i.e. an Edo p1 Sakura wouldn't have Kaguya-tier reflexes when auto-defending, but she would still auto-defend to the best of her ability.

You can try to do mental gymnastics around the canon statement all day, but that's what it says. They automatically defend from offensive jutsu used on them. Nagato not defending against Itachi's jutsu is because he didn't react in time to do so.


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## ShinAkuma (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> That's what the 3rd Raikage said, but the auto-response is still based on their reflexes i.e. an Edo p1 Sakura wouldn't have Kaguya-tier reflexes when auto-defending, but she would still auto-defend to the best of her ability.



So not automatic?

Don't matter to me.



> You can try to do mental gymnastics around the canon statement all day, but that's what it says.



In context of the sealing tags.

You sure do have a......_habit_ of not posting the entire scan or editing scans together.



> They automatically defend from offensive jutsu used on them. Nagato not defending against Itachi's jutsu is because he didn't react in time to do so.



He couldn't as @Hussain pointed out the Edo's cannot take actions against each other.

I'm sure you have some....coughmental gymnasticscough incoming for that one.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> You sure do have a......_habit_ of not posting the entire scan or editing scans together.



I never edit any scans together. I read from a site that plasters the whole chapters in one stream and screenshot what I need when scrolling through the chapter.




ShinAkuma said:


> He couldn't as @Hussain pointed out the Edo's cannot take actions against each other.



He couldn't _attack_ Itachi, but there's nothing saying he couldn't _defend_. On the contrary, there is a literal statement saying that Edos auto-defend from attacks to the best of their ability.


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## Ren. (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> that Edos auto-defend from attacks to the best of their ability.


Yeah and we saw how good that was for all of those Edos.

Sorry, that does not fly.


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## ShinAkuma (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> He couldn't _attack_ Itachi perhaps, but there's nothing saying he couldn't defend.



I don't see any specific distinction.



> On the contrary, there is a literal statement saying that Edos auto-defend from attacks to the best of their ability.



You just said it *wasn't automatic* because it still requires the Edo to react.

If Edo's are not allowed to act against another, Nagato *cannot react*.

Here ya go


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> I don't see any specific distinction.



You can't see a distinction between "attack" and "defend"? Because those are the two separate instances in Hussein's image and my image. They can't attack other Edos, but they also defend themselves.



ShinAkuma said:


> You just said it *wasn't automatic* because it still requires the Edo to react.



I can automatically throw my hands up in front of my face when a rock is coming my way, but still be shot in the face because I'm not fast enough. It's the same difference. You can auto-defend while still not being reactive/fast enough to stop things.



ShinAkuma said:


> If Edo's are not allowed to act against another, Nagato *cannot react*.



Now you're changing the verbiage from what is in the manga. Edos are not allowed to kill one another. Edos also automatically defend themselves from offensive jutsu. These statements aren't contradictory, so maybe you should give yourself that medal.


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## Trojan (May 30, 2020)

anyone sees the "auto-defense" here? 

*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed* 

*Link Removed* 

*Link Removed*


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

Hussain said:


> anyone sees the "auto-defense" here?



We don't see a single kunai land on its target? So presumably they defended.

I thought y'all were complaining about Itachi fangirls denying canon earlier?



It's crazy we're debating what was repeatedly stated pointblank in the manga literally 2-3 chapters before the Nagato fight. "B-b-but Nagato wasn't on auto-defend because then I'd have to admit he didn't have v2+ reactions to counter Itachi!"

Because it would be _so_ bad to have Itachi unable to blow apart CT by himself, but Nagato unable to react to Totsuka or Amaterasu, because then you'd have to admit that Itachi might actually be vaguely in Nagato's ballpark.


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## ShinAkuma (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> You can't see a distinction between "attack" and "defend"? Because those are the two separate instances in Hussein's image and my image.



Taking action is just that - action.



> I can automatically throw my hands up in front of my face when a rock is coming my way, but still be shot in the face because I'm not fast enough. It's the same difference. You can auto-defend while still not being reactive/fast enough to stop things.



Where did you get the fanfiction reactions dictate auto movement from?



> Now you're changing the verbiage from what is in the manga. Edos are not allowed to kill one another.



Seems to me they can't take any sort of combat action against each other.

But lets assume they can.

Why isn't the auto defense available at all times?

Maybe because it's just applicable to sealing tags?

Hmmmmmm


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## Trojan (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> We don't see a single kunai land on its target?


I put the last page for a reason, you know 

*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*



Surely you didn't think Mangetsu's head was blown on its own, and that's why it's regenerating?


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## ShinAkuma (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> We don't see a single kunai land on its target?




WTF do you think they were regenerating from?

What "attacks have no effect" do you think happened?


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

Hussain said:


> Surely you didn't think Mangetsu's head was blown on its own, and that's why it's regenerating?



Not a single one of them were KO'd the way Nagato was or that other ET were when badly damaged. That regneration is tantamount to the 3rd Raikage against Temari. Minimal.

So unless you and @ShinAkuma both believe all the Mist Swordsmen can tank explosions and thousands of kunai, some sort of defense was thrown up so as not to be KO'd.


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## ShinAkuma (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Not a single one of them were KO'd the way Nagato was.



I thought the argument was "auto defense"?


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> I thought the argument was "auto defense"?



Yeah, and your counter-argument was showing an off-panel defense, *or* arguing that Zabuza and others can stand there tank hundreds of blades and huge explosions pointblank without being KO'd for a single moment. However, since the blades were deflected all around on the ground, it's more likely they deflected them.

That doesn't counter multiple direct statements that Edos automatically defend themselves from techniques.


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## ShinAkuma (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Yeah, and your counter-argument was showing an off-panel defense,



Actually it's the lack of defense that is the point.

This example disproves your interpretation of "auto defense".

So like I said - they defend against sealing.


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Actually it's the lack of defense that is the point.



So how do you think the thousands of blades were all embedded in the surrounding earth and not the Edos they were thrown at, and that the only 'regenerating' you can point to is extremely minimal from only Mangetsu? Sorry, that doesn't counter two direct statements from Edo Kages that they auto-defend from offensive jutsu.

The scene also cut in between Hussein's two pages, they weren't back to back.



So yeah, your argument is literally "they didn't try to defend themselves at all in the off-screen fighting and just stood there and tanked everything! Haha I disproved multiple manga statements!"


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## ShinAkuma (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> So how do you think the thousands of blades were all embedded in the surrounding earth and not the Edos,



From the scale of the attack?

They weren't attempting to snipe them. It was an AOE attack. Some kunai's would miss obviously or be blown away from the explosive tags.



> and that the only 'regenerating' you can point to is extremely minimal from only Mangetsut?



Shows that he didn't use this "auto defense" fanfiction.



> Sorry, that doesn't counter two direct statements from Edo Kages that they auto-defend from offensive jutsu.



It does actually.

Also how did you determine that A3 was talking about *all edo's?*. He did say "We" and as far as he knows he's there with the other Edo Kages.

MORE HEADCANON INCOMING WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Shows that he didn't use this "auto defense" fanfiction.



The manga isn't fanfiction.



You know what's fanfiction? Making up your own words _*"b-b-but only sealing stuff!"*_



ShinAkuma said:


> MORE HEADCANON INCOMING WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO



Says the guy using off-screen fighting to try to disprove multiple manga statements that he's no-joke trying to re-write.



ShinAkuma said:


> Also how did you determine that A3 was talking about *all edo's?*. He did say "We" and as far as he knows he's there with the other Edo Kages



LOL, sure man, Kabuto *only* put the spell to ensure Edos couldn't just be soloed and refuse to fight on the Raikage and Gengetsu.


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## ShinAkuma (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> The manga isn't fanfiction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Doesn't apply to Nagato, sorry. The Edo kages are only referring to themselves. 



Live by semantics, die by semantics.


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Doesn't apply to Nagato, sorry. The Edo kages are only referring to themselves.
> 
> Live by semantics, die by semantics.



Lol so ONLY the Edo Kages had the don't-die-on-purpose and auto-defend order in them, and Edo Nagato auto-defended against Bee, but NOT from Itachi, just because. Solid logic.


"Nagato doesn't have the auto-defend order in him! That's only the Edo Kages!"

You can't even admit you're wrong because you're in too deep. There are literally multiple manga statements, and on panel feat evidence, and you still can't admit it because of raw bias.


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## ShinAkuma (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Lol so ONLY the Edo Kages had the don't-die-on-purpose and auto-defend order in them,



According to your evidence it would seem so.

A3 said "we" not "all". Same with Gengetsu.



> and Edo Nagato defended against Bee,



Wasn't automatic. Shared vision. Bee was the enemy.



> but NOT from Itachi, just because. Solid logic.



Itachi wasn't the enemy.

Another wank bites the dust.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Itachi wasn't the enemy.
> 
> Another wank bites the dust.



All of the statements said "we automatically defend from offensive jutsu". That's it. Pointblank.

Your fanfiction first said "we only defend from sealing jutsu" and tried to use off-screen fighting as a "evidence", although you endorsed Hussein pasting together the scenes as if they were back to back despite accusing me of that (and at least I always make separate instances separate imgur links rather than pasting together pages).

Then you argued "Nagato doesn't have auto-defense, only the Edo Kages" before being reminded that Nagato used auto-defense against Bee literally panels before eating Amaterasu.

Now your headcanon is "we only defend from offensive jutsu, unless we think you're a bro". But that isn't said anywhere. It's literally pure head-canon that contradicts the manga statements for the express purpose of denying an Itachi feat.


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## ShinAkuma (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> All of the statements said "we automatically defend from offensive jutsu".



Yes.

We = the Edo Kages.



> Your fanfiction first said "we only defend from sealing jutsu" and tried to use off-screen fighting as a "evidence".



Yes a reasonable interpretation to which you refused to accept.

Thus I destroyed your wank with *your own evidence*.

It's called adaptation.


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Yes.
> 
> We = the Edo Kages.
> 
> ...



I don't think anybody that isn't already _heavily_ biased would buy your counter-argument, but maybe I'm just optimistic.


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## t0xeus (May 30, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Yes.
> 
> We = the Edo Kages.


Why would we assume other ETs work differently for no reason? 

This is unlike you, Shin. Why be obtuse just so you don't have to concede?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (May 30, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That is nonsense. Itachi practically already killed Nagato before that with Amatérasu and he only came back because of edo powers.


 Nagato couldn't have defended himself anyway at the time since Edos cannot fight each other as others have pointed out. Itachi being able to actually one-shot Nagato with Amaterasu also makes no sense at all, for why didn't he just do that later on when Nagato was about to use Chibaku Tensei? 





> It is also fairly possible that Itachi could have used totsuka before Nagato uses chibaku.


 Again, if Itachi could've casually one-shot Nagato with any of his jutsu before Nagato brought out CT he would've done so. 





> And having to gang up against someone's final trump card isn't exactly portrayal that should be considered 1+ tiers of strength difference.


 Edo MS Itachi, who is already stronger than living sick Itachi, had to team up with two guys who are stronger than his living self to defeat Nagato. So yes, when you have three people all using their strongest jutsu to beat one guy that one is clearly way above any of them individually. 





> Literally 0 of Nagato's abilities worked except for this 1.


 When did Nagato even directly fight Itachi alone for you to come to that conclusion? 





> And intelligence is also part of Itachi's strength. So he deserves credit for even finding that weakness of chibaku not pity.


 I never said he did?

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (May 30, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Why would we assume other ETs work differently for no reason?



Simply the interpretation forced by the argument made. The argument allows for only a binary interpretation.

If we are forced to assume A3 is talking about auto defense on all attacks (despite evidence to the contrary on via other Edo's) then we also must accept his words on who this auto defense applies to.

Don't get to pick and choose when it's convenient.


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## t0xeus (May 30, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Simply the interpretation forced by the argument made. The argument allows for only a binary interpretation.
> 
> If we are forced to assume A3 is talking about auto defense on all attacks (despite evidence to the contrary on via other Edo's) then we also must accept his words on who this auto defense applies to.
> 
> Don't get to pick and choose when it's convenient.


But when did ETs ever not defend themselves?

The 7 Swordsmen example could simply be them failing to defend themselves properly. They just couldn't defend themselves well enough.


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## ShinAkuma (May 30, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> But when did ETs ever not defend themselves?



7 Swordsmen.



> The 7 Swordsmen example could simply be them failing to defend themselves properly. They just couldn't defend themselves well enough.



Sure, but that argument would allow for the "auto defense" to fail when initiated in the Edo's. Which also wouldn't apply to Nagato in control of himself.

The idea here is Nagato *could not defend himself vs Itachi*. As a result your interpretation would likely be rejected.


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Nagato couldn't have defended himself anyway at the time since Edos cannot fight each other as others have pointed out.



Defending from an offensive jutsu ≠ attacking another Edo.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Itachi being able to actually one-shot Nagato with Amaterasu also makes no sense at all, for why didn't he just do that later on when Nagato was about to use Chibaku Tensei?



He literally had just cut off his arm with Susano'o, Nagato popped off CT, and then Itachi immediately popped him with the Totsuka. It's not like there was some long, drawn out fight. Itachi literally made two moves against the re-resurrected Nagato. One cut off his arm while saving the hostages, and the other sealed him. In between those two moves, Nagato got off one: CT.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Edo MS Itachi, who is already stronger than living sick Itachi, had to team up with two guys who are stronger than his living self to defeat Nagato.



Edos have been shown and stated to be weaker than their living primes on quite a few occasions, and literally the only time Naruto and Bee helped was in countering CT. If Nagato were alive, he would have not gotten back up from Amaterasu, or been able to cast CT after losing his arm.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Defending from an offensive jutsu ≠ attacking another Edo.


 If the Edos cannot actually fight each other, then obviously both offensive and defensive maneuvers are taken into account. 


> He literally had just cut off his arm with Susano'o, Nagato popped off CT, and then Itachi immediately popped him with the Totsuka. It's not like there was some long, drawn out fight. Itachi literally made two moves against the re-resurrected Nagato. One cut off his arm while saving the hostages, and the other sealed him. In between those two moves, Nagato got off one: CT.


 
*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*


 Right here, Itachi had plenty of time to one-shot Nagato with Amaterasu but instead chose not too. So either Itachi is an idiot, or, Itachi cannot easily one-shot him with it to begin with. The latter clearly makes far more sense.


> Edos have been shown and stated to be weaker than their living primes on quite a few occasions, and literally the only time Naruto and Bee helped was in countering CT. If Nagato were alive, he would have not gotten back up from Amaterasu, or been able to cast CT after losing his arm.


Yes they have, but Edo Itachi is an exception because he has no disease as an Edo and the MS doesn't negatively affect him. You cannot seriously argue that Edo Itachi is below his deathly ill living self at all, he is clearly incapable of feeling pain, is not dragged down by the sickness, and his eyesight hasn't degraded at all. As for Nagato, Nagato himself would never have been hit by Amaterasu in the first place nor lost an arm to Itachi's Susanoo. Because if Nagato fought Itachi alone from the beginning when he was fully in control of himself, and in a situation in which he wasn't messing around he would've one-shot him with a large-scale Shinra Tensei that he used to bust Konoha off the bat.


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> If the Edos cannot actually fight each other, then obviously both offensive and defensive maneuvers are taken into account.



So say Edo Deidara dropped c3 on someone on the ground, you're saying that Edo Minato would physically be disallowed from dodging or blocking that attack? Attacking/fighting another Edo and defending from offensive jutsu are different things. If Haku uses his ice mirrors to surround fodder and Zabuza, is Zabuza obligated to stand frozen inside the jutsu and be hit by it?

If Rasa threw up a huge sand-wave at Gaara and 10 other Edos were near Gaara, would the 10 Edos just have to stand still and die to it? They're not allowed to dodge or block? Because that's basically your argument here in saying that Nagato was locked up in what he was allowed to do despite the manga clearly stating that they "automatically defend from offensive jutsu".



Isaiah13000 said:


> Right here, Itachi had plenty of time to one-shot Nagato with Amaterasu but instead chose not too.



The reason Itachi, Naruto, and Bee didn't press an attack and instead stood around talking and let Nagato regenerate an arm and cast CT was PIS, yes. It's the same reason Naruto didn't use a v2 shunshin and Frog Katas while Nagato was armless, or why Itachi didn't bother to seal Nagato when he was KO'd from Amaterasu, or seal him instead of karate-chopping his arm off.



Isaiah13000 said:


> You cannot seriously argue that Edo Itachi is below his deathly ill living self at all



His last day alive where Zetsu said Itachi appeared "seriously damaged" compared to his normal self? No. But compared to his usual, healthier living self that Zetsu knew? Yes, the Edo was likely weaker.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Because if Nagato fought Itachi alone from the beginning when he was fully in control of himself, and in a situation in which he wasn't messing around he would've one-shot him with a large-scale Shinra Tensei that he used to bust Konoha off the bat.



CST was only used once and it looked like it required a decent amount of charge-time. However, the mere fact that you're arguing that Nagato would instantly try CST or CT that makes living Nagato cough up blood should point that Itachi is around his level. It's the equivalent of Itachi immediately whipping out v4 + Totsuka and sprinting at an opponent with bloodlust. The only reason he/they would do that is if they knew their opponent was extraordinarily dangerous and needed to kill them ASAP.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (May 30, 2020)

Can SM Jiraiya dodge Amatarasu ?  I AM ONLY ASKING A QUESTION PLEASE LET ME KEEP THE GREEN haha.


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## Quipchaque (May 30, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Nagato couldn't have defended himself anyway at the time since Edos cannot fight each other as others have pointed out. Itachi being able to actually one-shot Nagato with Amaterasu also makes no sense at all, for why didn't he just do that later on when Nagato was about to use Chibaku Tensei?  Again, if Itachi could've casually one-shot Nagato with any of his jutsu before Nagato brought out CT he would've done so.  Edo MS Itachi, who is already stronger than living sick Itachi, had to team up with two guys who are stronger than his living self to defeat Nagato. So yes, when you have three people all using their strongest jutsu to beat one guy that one is clearly way above any of them individually.  When did Nagato even directly fight Itachi alone for you to come to that conclusion?  I never said he did?



That is absurd reasoning. There is no reason whatsoever that Nagato would let himself get hit on purpose by any attack just because he isn't supposed to attack edos. And even if we assume that was the case for whatever reason burden of proof is on you to show us that he could defend against Amatérasu in other scenarios. The rest is for the sake of suspense and because Itachi already realized that Nagato would regen anyway. Totsuka could have taken Nagato down simply by replacing the Susanoo cutting attack with the sealing stab. However that would completely mess up the purpose of Nagato's final stand which is supposed to show us that Nagato is still a tiny bit stronger than Itachi and that Itachi can outplay even superior jutsus to his own.

Edo Nagato is also stronger than his living self.. Moot point. And living Itachi isn't always sick. Prove that Itachi needed the other 2 for anything other than chibaku tensei please.


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## Shazam (May 30, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Prove that Itachi needed the other 2 for anything other than chibaku tensei please.



You need to come up with something special to say Itachi didn't need the help he got.


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## Quipchaque (May 30, 2020)

Shazam said:


> You need to come up with something special to say Itachi didn't need the help he got.



Why is that..? Did it look like he needed any help until the final exchange? Fact is that Kishimoto has portrayed Itachi as competent even when fighting the likes of Nagato. And that is not the kind of portrayal Jiraiya has.


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## Shazam (May 30, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Why is that..? Did it look like he needed any help until the final exchange? Fact is that Kishimoto has portrayed Itachi as competent even when fighting the likes of Nagato. And that is not the kind of portrayal Jiraiya has.



Dude itachi had 2 high kage with him. Get off his dick and think


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## PocketGod (May 30, 2020)

There are 62 votes in the poll, I honestly didn't even know we had this many people in the NBD. Maru must've gone wild with the dupes again.


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Dude itachi had 2 high kage with him. Get off his dick and think



Itachi literally soloed Nagato with Amaterasu before the 2 High Kages did anything.

"Get off Nagato's dick and think."


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 30, 2020)

the fact that Itachi had to chaperone two man children against Nagato, and still won, speaks volumes to his superiority.


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> the fact that Itachi had to chaperone two man children against Nagato, and still won, speaks volumes to his superiority.



Seriously, Itachi's actions in order:

1. Killed Cerberus with Amaterasu
2. Killed Nagato with Amaterasu (KO'd for a chapter)
3. Cut off Nagato's arm & blinded his summons
4. Helped Naruto and Bee defeat CT
5. Stabbed Nagato, sealing him

Itachi, no-exaggeration, had already killed Nagato once and cut off his arm before Bee or Naruto did anything helpful.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 30, 2020)

Illusory said:


> So say Edo Deidara dropped c3 on someone on the ground, you're saying that Edo Minato would physically be disallowed from dodging or blocking that attack? Attacking/fighting another Edo and defending from offensive jutsu are different things. If Haku uses his ice mirrors to surround fodder and Zabuza, is Zabuza obligated to stand frozen inside the jutsu and be hit by it?
> 
> If Rasa threw up a huge sand-wave at Gaara and 10 other Edos were near Gaara, would the 10 Edos just have to stand still and die to it? They're not allowed to dodge or block? Because that's basically your argument here in saying that Nagato was locked up in what he was allowed to do despite the manga clearly stating that they "automatically defend from offensive jutsu".


 None of us know what exactly the Edos would do in those situations. I am strictly referring to the Edos solely fighting each other individually, and according to what was said, they aren't allowed to fight each other at all. So if Itachi hits Nagato with Amaterasu before Nagato does anything, it sure as hell ain't because Nagato cannot even mentally react to Itachi's Amaterasu, it is because Nagato couldn't either due to being an Edo or he was caught off-guard. Either way, I am not going to agree with this nonsense that Edo MS Itachi himself can legit one-shot Nagato with Amaterasu by himself after Kishi had Edo Itachi team up with NTCM Naruto and TBM Killer B to defeat Nagato who himself had to nerfed at the time (his legs still not working for literally no reason *Link Removed* and Kabuto forgetting Itachi exists). For you yourself to even legitimately argue such a thing shows how clearly biased you are in favor of Itachi.


> The reason Itachi, Naruto, and Bee didn't press an attack and instead stood around talking and let Nagato regenerate an arm and cast CT was PIS, yes. It's the same reason Naruto didn't use a v2 shunshin and Frog Katas while Nagato was armless, or why Itachi didn't bother to seal Nagato when he was KO'd from Amaterasu, or seal him instead of karate-chopping his arm off.


 I do not buy "PIS/CIS" excuses. If a character doesn't do something when they can, either they cannot actually do it at the time or it would've been ineffective.


> His last day alive where Zetsu said Itachi appeared "seriously damaged" compared to his normal self? No. But compared to his usual, healthier living self that Zetsu knew? Yes, the Edo was likely weaker.


 Yeah, but when we discuss Itachi we don't discuss his hypothetical unknown healthy self. As we don't even know how long ago it was when he was healthy, and based on his performances in Part 1 and especially in Part 2 he didn't seem healthy at all. So we go with that, we don't debate an unknown version of a character.


> CST was only used once and it looked like it required a decent amount of charge-time. However, the mere fact that you're arguing that Nagato would instantly try CST or CT that makes living Nagato cough up blood should point that Itachi is around his level. It's the equivalent of Itachi immediately whipping out v4 + Totsuka and sprinting at an opponent with bloodlust. The only reason he/they would do that is if they knew their opponent was extraordinarily dangerous and needed to kill them ASAP.


I was referring to Edo Nagato, and I only said that because that is the absolute easiest way to demolish Itachi. But no it is not even necessary to beat Itachi, infact, Nagato himself is not even necessary. The Six Paths of Pain are strong enough to deal with any version of Itachi themselves.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> That is absurd reasoning. There is no reason whatsoever that Nagato would let himself get hit on purpose by any attack just because he isn't supposed to attack edos. And even if we assume that was the case for whatever reason burden of proof is on you to show us that he could defend against Amatérasu in other scenarios. The rest is for the sake of suspense and because Itachi already realized that Nagato would regen anyway. Totsuka could have taken Nagato down simply by replacing the Susanoo cutting attack with the sealing stab. However that would completely mess up the purpose of Nagato's final stand which is supposed to show us that Nagato is still a tiny bit stronger than Itachi and that Itachi can outplay even superior jutsus to his own.
> 
> Edo Nagato is also stronger than his living self.. Moot point. And living Itachi isn't always sick. Prove that Itachi needed the other 2 for anything other than chibaku tensei please.


 "None of us know what exactly the Edos would do in those situations. I am strictly referring to the Edos solely fighting each other individually, and according to what was said, they aren't allowed to fight each other at all. So if Itachi hits Nagato with Amaterasu before Nagato does anything, it sure as hell ain't because Nagato cannot even mentally react to Itachi's Amaterasu, it is because Nagato couldn't either due to being an Edo or he was caught off-guard. Either way, I am not going to agree with this nonsense that Edo MS Itachi himself can legit one-shot Nagato with Amaterasu by himself after Kishi had Edo Itachi team up with NTCM Naruto and TBM Killer B to defeat Nagato who himself had to nerfed at the time (his legs still not working for literally no reason *Link Removed* and Kabuto forgetting Itachi exists). For you yourself to even legitimately argue such a thing shows how clearly biased you are in favor of Itachi."

I'm not gonna engage in a multi-page debate with fans seriously trying to argue that Itachi is slightly above, on, or below Nagato's level. There is just no way you can come to that conclusion without wanking the hell out of Itachi. Not to metnion our views are so dramatically different in order for us to come to such polar opposite conclusions that I don't think we will agree in the end anyway.


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## Illusory (May 30, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I am strictly referring to the Edos solely fighting each other individually, and according to what was said, they aren't allowed to fight each other at all.



Yet we know this isn't strictly true, as they are allowed to damage one another as long as they are also going to damage an enemy. Which makes the whole "they aren't even allowed to evade/block AOE jutsu from other Edos!" argument _such_ a head-canon stretch.




Isaiah13000 said:


> So if Itachi hits Nagato with Amaterasu before Nagato does anything, it sure as hell ain't because Nagato cannot even mentally react to Itachi's Amaterasu, it is because Nagato couldn't either due to being an Edo or he was caught off-guard.



The surprise-factor is at least a passable excuse, although crippled Nagato has nothing suggesting he has v2 A's reactions. He became more reactive after absorbing the v2 cloak.



Isaiah13000 said:


> For you yourself to even legitimately argue such a thing shows how clearly biased you are in favor of Itachi.



The manga clearly has Itachi beating Nagato on a variety of occasions. Your inability to accept this is IMO an example of bias, not me pointing it out.



Isaiah13000 said:


> I do not buy "PIS/CIS" excuses. If a character doesn't do something when they can, either they cannot actually do it at the time or it would've been ineffective.



So you think the most effective possible thing Itachi, Naruto, and Bee could have done while Nagato was on the ground dead from Amaterasu was stand around and talk? Or stand around and talk while Nagato was regenerating an arm from Itachi's initial Susano'o blitz? Nah, it was PIS.


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## Gin Ichimaru (May 31, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Seriously, Itachi's actions in order:
> 
> 1. Killed Cerberus with Amaterasu
> 2. Killed Nagato with Amaterasu (KO'd for a chapter)
> ...


Haven't read through the 12 pages previous, but do you think Itachi can do #2 and #3 if he's not focusing his attention on Naruto and Bee?


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## blk (May 31, 2020)

Hussain said:


> except it will not...
> 
> if I have a power full of water, and there is a small rock in middle.
> and then I took a glass (upside-down) and put it on top of the rock...
> ...



Yes i meant that page. 

Onoki's Jutsu was to raise a pillar below Madara, not to have it explode.

It was Madara's flash Susanoo activation that destroyed the rock, since its solid Chakra parts expanded below and thus pushed away the rocks.

The COR was already tanked by Ribcage and V3 literally blow it away, its force couldn't have possibly be the thing that destroyed the pillar.

Also no, Susanoo has never been shown to generate from the upside down. 
That's your headcanon.


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## Quipchaque (May 31, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Looool
> 
> Magically Preta Path or ST doesn't work.



Yep it doesn't. Amatérasu is a nigh instant attack that you can't even see. Saying those two techniques should work is the same as saying that Nagato should have preta or shinra'd totsuka blade. He didn't and couldn't because he couldn't see it and it is Apparantly fast as hell.


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## Quipchaque (May 31, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> None of us know what exactly the Edos would do in those situations. I am strictly referring to the Edos solely fighting each other individually, and according to what was said, they aren't allowed to fight each other at all. So if Itachi hits Nagato with Amaterasu before Nagato does anything, it sure as hell ain't because Nagato cannot even mentally react to Itachi's Amaterasu, it is because Nagato couldn't either due to being an Edo or he was caught off-guard. Either way, I am not going to agree with this nonsense that Edo MS Itachi himself can legit one-shot Nagato with Amaterasu by himself after Kishi had Edo Itachi team up with NTCM Naruto and TBM Killer B to defeat Nagato who himself had to nerfed at the time (his legs still not working for literally no reason *Link Removed* and Kabuto forgetting Itachi exists). For you yourself to even legitimately argue such a thing shows how clearly biased you are in favor of Itachi.
> I do not buy "PIS/CIS" excuses. If a character doesn't do something when they can, either they cannot actually do it at the time or it would've been ineffective.
> Yeah, but when we discuss Itachi we don't discuss his hypothetical unknown healthy self. As we don't even know how long ago it was when he was healthy, and based on his performances in Part 1 and especially in Part 2 he didn't seem healthy at all. So we go with that, we don't debate an unknown version of a character.
> I was referring to Edo Nagato, and I only said that because that is the absolute easiest way to demolish Itachi. But no it is not even necessary to beat Itachi, infact, Nagato himself is not even necessary. The Six Paths of Pain are strong enough to deal with any version of Itachi themselves.
> ...



Nagato's legs were most likely working again once he absorbed Bee's chakra. After all we have seen him regain his prime body when he did. Even if it did not there is no reason to assume that Nagato would suddenly vastly outperform Itachi. And for the record I don't believe Itachi can one-shot Nagato with Amatérasu but fact is that Kishimoto added those panels for the sake of Itachi's portrayal when compared to Nagato. In case you haven't realized they are literally carbon copies of Naruto and Sasuke in the Akatsuki but with inverted ideologies. Basically they are the yin and yang to their younger counterparts.

And no I am not biased for Itachi I am merely arguing for what the manga seems to imply which is that Itachi can compete with Nagato the same way Sasuke can compete with Naruto. Think about it why did Zetsu even use Itachi and Nagato to compare Naruto and Sasuke strength-wise if they weren't even in the same tier?


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## Illusory (May 31, 2020)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> Haven't read through the 12 pages previous, but do you think Itachi can do #2 and #3 if he's not focusing his attention on Naruto and Bee?



Nagato wasn't focusing on Naruto and Bee when hit by Amaterasu. He also knew something was up given he saw Itachi kill the Cerberus. As for three, I think so as a clone feint would accomplish the same thing.


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## Itachi36 (May 31, 2020)

Illusory said:


> You realize you're making up head-canon and ignoring actual canon, right?
> 
> 
> If Nagato could counter the blast and not be KO'd then he would have, as stated by canon.
> ...



the problem you and many other have is that you're forgetting one very important thing : jutsu powers and numbers are only a part of shinobi's strength.
Things like intelligence and tactics are equally as important, especially at the highest level where jutsu's powers are comparable (and we know that Itachi's strongest jutsus are at least on par with nagato's,at least when it comes to kill someone on 1 vs 1 battle)


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## Itachi36 (May 31, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Again stop deflecting 3 vs1 and Nagato was crippeled and vulnerable to seals.
> 
> 
> *vs Pain, Itachi has zero and I mean zero chances to even arrive at the real body.*



what's your proof, Pain being the leader of Akatsuki and so of Itachi? The same way Sarutobi was Itachi's leader during the Uchiha clan incident lol?


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## Ren. (May 31, 2020)

Itachi36 said:


> what's your proof, Pain being the leader of Akatsuki and so of Itachi? The same way Sarutobi was Itachi's leader during the Uchiha clan incident lol?


Feats of Pain vs Alive Itachi.

Now go and troll other people.

Itachi needs go to as Naruto did but solo and this time he will face even Konan that has a plan to even take Obito that shit diffs Itachi with Kamui alone.

Itachi's all seals shields mean shit vs Kamui and Obito has Izanagi also.


Ren. said:


> That is not superior at all.
> 
> Pain is a 6 man team + Konan.
> 
> ...



can all the Itachi insert number users post now and not each day?


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## Ren. (May 31, 2020)

Itachi defeats Nagato, care to tell,  all the Itachi wankers can show me where even Edo Itachi ever fought solo Nagato?

Him using Totsuka after an explosion is not fighting solo Nagato.

And that instance does not work on Pain and Itachi alive is weaker than Edo.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (May 31, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Yep it doesn't. Amatérasu is a nigh instant attack that you can't even see.



Nagato doesn't need to see it he's already proven on panel *he can sense it*.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (May 31, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Nagato doesn't need to see it he's already proven on panel *he can sense it*.


Why are we talking about Nagato.

Itachi even as Edo can't do shit alone vs him.

Stick to trolling Jiraya guys fi that is what you guys want.

Nagato or Pain are beings that can't be touched by Itachi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 31, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Nagato or Pain are beings that can't be touched by Itachi.



*kills Nagato three times in their fight.


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## Ren. (May 31, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> *kills Nagato three times in their fight.


He has ... wait a moment Bee and KCM Naruto that are doing the fighting for him.

How the fuck are you going to do that vs Itachi that is alive?


Nagato just uses a meteorite on Itachi.

Itachi goes Susanoo.

Nagato uses another one and another one until Itachi either dies or runs out of chakra and dies.

Pain is even a better fight, he uses Tengo to nuke his ass.


Guys, please tell me that now he can seal now repulsion aka gravity and his shield can tank nukes and meteorites.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 31, 2020)

Ren. said:


> He has ... wait a moment Bee and KCM Naruto that are doing the fighting for him.
> 
> How the fuck are you going to do that vs Itachi that is alive?



Crow clone. 



Ren. said:


> Nagato just uses a meteorite on Itachi.



Genjutsu feint gg



Ren. said:


> Itachi goes Susanoo.



And kills Nagato like in canon 



> Nagato uses another one and another one until Itachi either dies or runs out of chakra and dies.



Gotta manga scan for that?



Ren. said:


> Pain is even a better fight, he uses Tengo to nuke his ass.



Genjutsu gg on nagato himself.



Ren. said:


> Guys, please tell me that now he can seal now repulsion aka gravity and his shield can tank nukes and meteorites.



He can seal repulsion aka gravity and his shield can tank nukes and meteorites .


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## Ren. (May 31, 2020)

Itachi has no answer to:


This getting dropped on his ass:



Or this:


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## Ren. (May 31, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> He can seal repulsion aka gravity and his shield can tank nukes and meteorites .


How do you seal gravity special one?

Tell me are you serious now?


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 31, 2020)

Ren. said:


> How do you seal gravity special one?
> 
> Tell me are you serious now?



How do you seal anything with a magic sword? Emphasis mine.


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## Ren. (May 31, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Genjutsu feint gg


AOE >>>>>>>>>>> than his feint range or I need to tell you what a feint is next?

 Nice try.


Ziggy Stardust said:


> Genjutsu gg on nagato himself.


AAAA he is no Genjutsuing no rinnegan split vision, nice try.

He can't access Nagato at all before 6 bodies + Konan.


Ziggy Stardust said:


> How do you seal anything with a magic sword? Emphasis mine.


Again how do you seal gravity?

That is a no-limit fallacy bob.

Go and troll the users that believe shit like that.

For you to use that you first need to have Itachi performing a sealing on gravity that is a natural force.

what next Itachi can seal Sage Chakra, Rikugo Chakra?


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## Ren. (May 31, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Gotta manga scan for that?


Like your scans for sealing gravity!

I have here: 

And I have the same eyes doing this:



You have  crap like this:



Ziggy Stardust said:


> He can seal repulsion aka gravity and his shield can tank nukes and meteorites .




Now you might think I engage with all types of trolls.

@dergeist  is special regarding this topic, you are not!
I enjoy counter trolling him, you meh.


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## Ren. (May 31, 2020)

Furthermore troll:

you can't seal this:


This is exactly like the aftereffect of an explosion and you can't shield this because the shield is not a 360-degree defense.

Etc.


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## Ren. (May 31, 2020)

You can't seal or defend against this:


Because this is an even bigger explosion that is even like a nuclear reaction for 10m or so a perpetual explosion for like 10m.

Shield against this is impossible this is gigantic vs the surface of that shield.


So there are like a lot of things that Itachi can't ever handle with his skills.

Itachi is an Assasin type, not a god wankers.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 31, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Like your scans for sealing gravity!



*Link Removed* 



> Anything with mass 
> People have mass
> Itachi seals people 
> Itachi seals gravity



Ren. said:


> This is exactly like the aftereffect of an explosion and you can't shield this because the shield is not a 360-degree defense.



Databook III : The Yata mirror can change _every _single one of it's properties to meet the attack. 


Ren : 







Ren. said:


> Because this is an even bigger explosion that is even like a nuclear reaction for 10m or so a perpetual explosion for like 10m.



Genjutsu GG. 



Ren. said:


> Itachi is an Assasin type, not a god wankers.



A godly assassin at that.


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## Itachi36 (May 31, 2020)

Shazam said:


> You need to come up with something special to say Itachi didn't need the help he got.



loool it's rather the reverse actually if you saw and read the scans with objectivity.
It's actually very simple and to over complicate simple stuffs is just something Itachi haters /Nagato-minato-jiraiya fanboys love to do in order to put chaos on Itachi's feats: when edo Nagato was fighting naruto and killer bee, there were both absolutely destroyed and clueless and on verge to be both killed.
Suddenly, Itachi reappeared and it's Nagato who got owned in few panels.
Oh sure, bee and naruto helped him to destroy chibaku tensei BUT nothing proves that Itachi wouldn't have been able to do that alone, especially considering how cool he looked in front of that jutsu and how he was clearly trying to involve naruto by giving him a few lessons (use teamwork, and not panic and think calmly in any situation).
So the ONLY sure thing is that when Nagato was facing naruto and killer bee, it was a stomping in Nagato's favor and when suddenly Itachi appeared in the game again (and both Nagato and Kabuto knew he was around and free from ET and free to save bee and naruto so stop the bullshite about Nagato not targeting him), it was Nagato who got totally owned and stomped...and in just few scans, not 10 chapters.

so after that, look me in the eyes and tell me with a straight face that Itachi wasn't at least at 80-90% the main architect of Nagato being stomped in few scans.


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## Ren. (May 31, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Anything with mass
> > People have mass
> > Itachi seals people
> > Itachi seals gravity


Gravity does not have mass.

That is even a bigger fallacy.

If you have mass and you implicit have gravity, you can seal people because of mass but if a repulsion is made without mass then your extrapolation is false from its inception nice try. Are you also selling bridges next?

You said something like this:

People have mass so gravity.
The moon has mass and gravity.

Itachi can seal the moon.




Ziggy Stardust said:


> Databook III : The Yata mirror can change _every _single one of it's properties to meet the attack.
> 
> 
> Ren :


The statement means shit in a vs.

That is no limit fallacy 101.

The *no-limits fallacy* is the  that a poorly understood phenomenon can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold. For a gross example, observing that a  can easily withstand an attack from a particular weapon, one might illogically conclude that the shield could withstand fire from an unlimited number of those weapons at the same time, or that it could withstand fire from a similar weapon that was much more powerful.



Ziggy Stardust said:


> Genjutsu GG.


Tobi aka Obito can Genjutsu the Kyubi ... and he could not Genjutsu GG.

Again a no limit fallacy.



Ziggy Stardust said:


> A godly assassin at that.


A no so great troll


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## Ren. (May 31, 2020)

For a gross example, observing that a  can easily withstand an attack from a particular weapon, one might illogically conclude that the shield could withstand fire from an unlimited number of those weapons at the same time, or that it could withstand fire from a similar weapon that was much more powerful.


I even like the  example, this refers to Itachi's shield btw.


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## Ren. (May 31, 2020)

But to oversimplify your arguments @Ziggy Stardust

Well this is more than appropriate:


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 31, 2020)

sounds pretty good to me bud.


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## Ren. (May 31, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> sounds pretty good to me bud.


To me also.


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## Itachi36 (May 31, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Why are we talking about Nagato.
> 
> Itachi even as Edo can't do shit alone vs him.
> 
> ...



Lool again, it's pure fan fiction.
Just because jiraiya was not smart enough to guess quickly that Pain 6 bodies were controlled by someone else and where to find this guy doesn't mean a guy who was at least 10 times smarter and far more a genius than Jiraiya "I failed the ring bell test" couldn't achieve that.


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## Ren. (May 31, 2020)

Itachi36 said:


> Lool again, it's pure fan fiction.
> Just because jiraiya was not smart enough to guess quickly that Pain 6 bodies were controlled by someone else and where to find this guy doesn't mean a guy who was at least 10 times smarter and far more a genius than Jiraiya "I failed the ring bell test" couldn't achieve that.


So let me get this the same man that kills his clan because he is a genius but needs Tobi's power and intel ... got it.

The same man that tried to make Sasuke hate him and failed, his all plan was crap but whatever.

The same man that stayed in the Akatsuki and never was the genius to kill Tobi or Pain.

Now you think he passes by the feats of Pain vs Konoha and Konan vs Obito.

You know what that is called ... well, delusion.



Itachi36 said:


> doesn't mean a guy who was at least 10 times smarter and far more a genius than Jiraiya "I failed the ring bell test" couldn't achieve that.


Who the heck was talking about that LOL.

Naruto as the MC needed the intel from Jiraya, SM mode > MS of Itachi, 2 Sage that are kage level, an entire village, Kakashi daying, Kyubi to the 8th tail.

And we remove Konan that can do this:



And the fight ended with the MC convincing Pain.


But somehow Itachi his 200 IQ, btw Shikamaru is smarter than Itachi, will manage to do that solo when he is sick and dies after 10m of usage of his dam eyes, he is almost blind.

This is how you view Itachi it seems:


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## Ren. (May 31, 2020)

@Itachi36  Do I need to remind you that on-screen Itachi has fought solo only Sasuke and he died after that fight.

He fought vs the rest in teams because well he is that type of fighter.


Vs Nagato with KCM Naruto that is stronger than Alive Itachi and Bee that is on his general level if not stronger if he just nukes him with range.

vs Kaguto with Sasuke and he was losing if Kishi did not also become a member with a plot device called Izanami.

Vs the Uchiha, he tagged it with Tobi.

I don't think you guys get the meme, we made the Solo King meme because he only soloed himself on Panel.

Wrong manga but ... OP genius is this one:


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## Quipchaque (May 31, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Nagato doesn't need to see it he's already proven on panel *he can sense it*.



I know that he can sense it. Did that matter? No. And as I already said I don't believe that it would be as simple as Amatérasu one-shot... That was just for the purpose of portrayal.


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## Itachi36 (May 31, 2020)

Ren. said:


> So let me get this the same man that kills his clan because he is a genius but needs Tobi's power and intel ... got it.
> 
> The same man that tried to make Sasuke hate him and failed, his all plan was crap but whatever.
> 
> ...



at least, everyone can see thanks to this post that you're just a troller and a really bad, not subtle one at that


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## ShinAkuma (May 31, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> I know that he can sense it. Did that matter?





It matters if Nagato has his own free will and can take action. He activates Preta in response or ST.

Should be obvious......


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## Itachi36 (May 31, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Dude itachi had 2 high kage with him. Get off his dick and think



what did the 2 high kages do against Nagato before Itachi came into equation? They were getting stomped and completely outclassed
What happened when Itachi came to save them? Nagato got stomped in just few panels, not even 3-4 chapters (I repeat, Nagato got stomped and killed in JUST few panels)
Thank you, good bye


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## Trojan (May 31, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Should be obvious......


Sadly, I don't think itachi's fanboys know what "obvious" is... U_U

they are under his Genjutsu, everything is an illusion he created.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Itachi36 (May 31, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Seriously, Itachi's actions in order:
> 
> 1. Killed Cerberus with Amaterasu
> 2. Killed Nagato with Amaterasu (KO'd for a chapter)
> ...



shuuut, Itachi would have been obliterated by Nagato without Naruto and KB's "help"...


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## Trojan (May 31, 2020)

Itachi36 said:


> shuuut, Itachi would have been obliterated by Nagato without Naruto and KB's "help"...


do you seriously not realize how stupid your post is?  

Yes, it was not so hard for itachi to do some work because he was never the target/focus. 
Nagato already had his hands full dealing with Naruto & B, leaving an opening for itachi to do what he wants... 

But then again, you named yourself "itachi" so there is nothing much to be said...


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## Itachi36 (May 31, 2020)

Hussain said:


> do you seriously not realize how stupid your post is?
> 
> Yes, it was not so hard for itachi to do some work because he was never the target/focus.
> Nagato already had his hands full dealing with Naruto & B, *leaving an opening for itachi to do what he wants... *
> ...



lol and what happened when Itachi again appeared in front of him so no more element of surprise? Why could he find himself an opening to kill Itachi? Answer me quick
The reality is that you're just trying to find pathetic excuses in order to diminish Itachi's feats.
The brute facts are that edo Nagato got totally owned and killed by Edo Itachi who did 90% of the work (one could argue naruto and killer bee were more burdens to him) and after that, no more mention of Nagato while Itachi ended Edo Tensei and ended up as one of the biggest heroes of this war.

Accept that and move on.

Oh and a last point: yes i'm an Itachi fan and proud to be, no need to hide it but that doesn't mean I don't recognize Itachi's limits in term of strength and the fact there were stronger ninjas than him ( Kaguya, Hagoromo, Ishiki, Madara, probably Hashirama, current Naruto and Sasuke, probably also Kashin Koji)


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## Trojan (May 31, 2020)

Itachi36 said:


> lol and what happened when Itachi again appeared in front of him so no more element of surprise?


what are you referring 2? 



Itachi36 said:


> Why could he find himself an opening to kill Itachi? Answer me quick


Kabuto was in control of Nagato, he forgot itachi even there. 
that's how irrelevant itachi was to him lol 



Itachi36 said:


> You're just trying to find pathetic excuses in order to diminish Itachi's feats.


nah, your reaching is what pathetic... 



Itachi36 said:


> The brute facts are that edo Nagato got totally owned and killed by Edo Itachi who did 90% of the work (


rubbish. 

the only one time itachi was the target. I.E when Nagato used CT.
it was B's & Naruto's fire-power that saved his ass. His explosion-tag power magatama wouldn't have done shit... 

Of course, that is not to say he didn't do anything either... 
the point is none of them could have defeated Nagato on his own. Hence, the 3 Vs 1



Itachi36 said:


> no more mention of Nagato while Itachi ended Edo Tensei and ended up as one of the biggest heroes of this war.


All ET were already sealed and/or defeated.

The only one remained was Asspulldara, whom escaped that. itachi's work was already too late to matter. 
He ended up being useless... 

Accept that and move on.


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## Itachi36 (May 31, 2020)

Hussain said:


> Kabuto was in control of Nagato, he forgot itachi even there.
> that's how irrelevant itachi was to him lol
> 
> 
> nah, your reaching is what pathetic...



Lool Kabuto forgot Itachi was there?? What about when Itachi came back to save naruto and KB's asses? He also forgot he was there when Nagato got stomped by Totsuka?
Let's be serious one minute please


"That's how irrelevant Itachi was to him"

yeah that's probably why *just before Itachi reappeared to save naruto and killer bee*, he was saying Itachi was on another level from the other edo tenseis and that he completely underestimated him...
So Kabuto is obviously that stupid that he would make that same mistake of underestimating Itachi just few panels later? 
you seriously want to make yourself look so dumb?


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## Trojan (May 31, 2020)

Itachi36 said:


> Lool Kabuto forgot Itachi was there?? What about when Itachi came back to save naruto and KB's asses? He also forgot he was there when Nagato got stomped by Totsuka?
> Let's be serious one minute please


Nagato can't move, so when he got hit by Totsuka he got hit by it. It couldn't be helped. 



Itachi36 said:


> "That's how irrelevant Itachi was to him"
> 
> yeah that's probably why *just before Itachi reappeared to save naruto and killer bee*, he was saying Itachi was on another level from the other edo tenseis and that he completely underestimated...


he did neither actually.. 

I went back to check on his statements.
he was talking about fooling Obito by trying to hold Naruto's and B's souls...
I guess it was an old interpretation that he forgot about itachi :V


and no, he didn't say itachi is on another level. He said he is "different"


*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*




he thought itachi resisted the ET, which he didn't. It was only Koto's work... 




Itachi36 said:


> you seriously want to make yourself look so dumb?


No.

you saying itachi > Nagato
shows that you are the dumb one... 


Everyone with a brain knows that once a group of characters face one character
then that 1 character is the stronger one. As there will be no need to team-work against a weaker character...

But I guess you don't have one. Hence those posts...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Soul (Jun 1, 2020)

Jiraiya can out pressure on Itachi, it's a shame that he can't reliably counter Itachi's MS techniques.
It was a nice thing to speculate before Itachi got way better feats when he was revived, now it's just a little silly.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Jun 1, 2020)

Itachi36 said:


> at least, everyone can see thanks to this post that you're just a troller and a really bad, not subtle one at that


Yes, That post was trolling your wanking.

 The rest are not!

You use the same fallacies as the rest, the statement from Kabuto, that was fan translation and interpretation from Kabuto, it was done because of Shinsui not Itachi.



Th no limit fallacy that is Totsuka and the other one that is the Yata Mirror.

The fallacies that MS Iachi before his death can do te same as Edo Itachi.

The fallacy that Edo Itachi's speed is better than KCM 'Naruto's speed.

The fallacy that Itachi has defeated Nagato when it was a 3 vs 1  fight, Nagato was exposed to sealing and controlled.


etc


Even If all the Itachi's fanboys do a vs me the topics are the same.


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## Soul (Jun 1, 2020)

Ren. said:


> The fallacies that MS Iachi before his death can do te same as Edo Itachi.



Do you think he can't move his sword as fast while alive? Why?



> The fallacy that Edo Itachi's speed is better than KCM 'Naruto's speed.



Being able to keep up alone is a feat good enough for this discussion.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 1, 2020)

Soul said:


> Do you think he can't move his sword as fast while alive?



Did somebody say it was a matter of speed?


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## JayK (Jun 1, 2020)

one of the biggest poll stomps I've seen so far


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## Turrin (Jun 1, 2020)

Straight up haven’t seen @Baroxio post in the NBD for 2 Years and he shows up to vote in this poll. The amount of people that are just lurking and voting Itachi in the poll is the funniest thing to me

Reactions: Like 3


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## Soul (Jun 1, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Did somebody say it was a matter of speed?



I am just asking questions. Can you answer them?


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## Soul (Jun 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Straight up haven’t seen @Baroxio post in the NBD for 2 Years and he shows up to vote in this poll. The amount of people that are just lurking and voting Itachi in the poll is the funniest thing to me



The poll being 47 to 14 is more fun to me than that. Wouldn't you agree?


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## Turrin (Jun 1, 2020)

Soul said:


> The poll being 47 to 14 is more fun to me than that. Wouldn't you agree?


I guess I agree that what you consider is more fun for you is indeed more fun for you.... what question is that lol


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2020)

JayK said:


> one of the biggest poll stomps


not really...  

Also, itachi's fanboys WhatApp group can do that 

see all other threads, there is nowhere near the number of voters that swarmed out of nowhere to this thread 

if anything, it shows how insecure itachi's fanboys really are


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## Soul (Jun 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I guess I agree that what you consider is more fun for you is indeed more fun for you.... what question is that lol



Good! Glad to be on the same page.



Hussain said:


> not really...
> 
> Also, itachi's fanboys WhatApp group can do that
> 
> ...



Pretty decent cope.


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2020)

Soul said:


> Pretty decent cope.


thank you! I am working on it


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## Gin Ichimaru (Jun 1, 2020)

To be fair the ratio on the minato vs itachi thread is just as lopsided as this one (in favor of minato)


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 1, 2020)

Soul said:


> I am just asking questions. Can you answer them?



The context of your question makes no sense to me.

What does it matter if he can or cannot slash at the same speed?


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## Soul (Jun 1, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> The context of your question makes no sense to me.
> 
> What does it matter if he can or cannot slash at the same speed?



Why do I need context? It's a question.
Want to see how different he thinks alive Itachi is to edo Itachi.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 1, 2020)

Soul said:


> Why do I need context? It's a question.
> Want to see how different he thinks alive Itachi is to edo Itachi.



Well Edo isn't sick for one. Also has regen and infinite chakra. Regen is basically a bootleg EMS.

As far as how fast he swings I don't see any particular difference.


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2020)

itachi was sick....


*Spoiler*: _1_ 



in his head




the rest is Susanoo drawback and you are all wrong... U_U


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## blk (Jun 1, 2020)

Must hurt the Sannin stans to see that Jiraya gets low diffed by Itachi, not just in manga canon, but also on polls


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## Shazam (Jun 1, 2020)

JayK said:


> one of the biggest poll stomps I've seen so far



Gives you idea about the sheer amount of delusion present in the BD right now.


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2020)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> To be fair the ratio on the minato vs itachi thread is just as lopsided as this one (in favor of minato)


68 voters in this thread
compared to 30 voters in that thread 


Total votes*


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## Shazam (Jun 1, 2020)

blk said:


> Jiraya gets low diffed by Itachi, not just in manga canon,



Clearly doesn't.



blk said:


> but also on polls



Polls mean absolutely nothing, Trump was elected afterall despite being a terribly wrong choice. So if you want to lean on that for comfort, go ahead.


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## dergeist (Jun 1, 2020)

How may of his alts did @Shazam bring out to get Fodderaiya past 1 - 3 votes


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## blk (Jun 1, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Clearly doesn't.



I guess i can concede that it's a mid diff win for Itachi


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## Shazam (Jun 1, 2020)

dergeist said:


> How may of his lats did @Shazam bring out to get Fodderaiya past 1 - 3 votes



I can't understand your dumbassery, pls reword


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## Shazam (Jun 1, 2020)

blk said:


> I guess i can concede that it's a mid diff win for Itachi



As long as you concede it goes 50/50 the otherway around as well.


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## dergeist (Jun 1, 2020)

Shazam said:


> I can't understand your dumbassery, pls reword



Come now, even with auto-correct in full force let's not pretend like you didn't understand the statement


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## Shazam (Jun 1, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Come now, even with auto-correct in full force let's not pretend like you didn't understand the statement



I hardly understand your reason to log-in..
​


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## dergeist (Jun 1, 2020)

Shazam said:


> I hardly understand your reason to log-in..
> ​



In plain English you're answer is all the votes for Fodderaiya are via your proxies


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## Soul (Jun 1, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Well Edo isn't sick for one. Also has regen and infinite chakra. Regen is basically a bootleg EMS.
> 
> As far as how fast he swings I don't see any particular difference.



So you believe that alive Itachi could do pretty much everything edo Itachi did, he would just deteriorate way quicker, right? Which is my position on him as well.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 1, 2020)

Soul said:


> So you believe that alive Itachi could do pretty much everything edo Itachi did, he would just deteriorate way quicker, right? Which is my position on him as well.



Living Itachi could perform a few of the actions of Edo Itachi at Edo's level, but would likely not sustain the performance.

There's a reason Living Itachi defaulted to intelligent fighting and skill vs his Edo self that pooped Susanoo at every opportunity.


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## Shazam (Jun 1, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Living Itachi could perform a few of the actions of Edo Itachi at Edo's level, but would likely not sustain the performance.
> 
> There's a reason Living Itachi defaulted to intelligent fighting and skill vs his Edo self that pooped Susanoo at every opportunity.



Everything and anything that requires chakra would slowly diminish overtime with Living Itachi, cant say the same about Edo 

That even means shunshin, and clone feints

Reactions: Like 2


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## Baroxio (Jun 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Straight up haven’t seen @Baroxio post in the NBD for 2 Years and he shows up to vote in this poll. The amount of people that are just lurking and voting Itachi in the poll is the funniest thing to me


I visit from time to time. Mostly visit OBD when there's a new One Piece manga chapter out and discuss shit on NF Cafe. But sometimes it's nice to go back to my roots. Do you miss me?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Jun 2, 2020)

Soul said:


> Do you think he can't move his sword as fast while alive? Why?
> 
> 
> 
> Being able to keep up alone is a feat good enough for this discussion.


Not my point.

Naruto was not using the same speed as vs V2 Raikage, he was talking not fighting him.


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## Ren. (Jun 2, 2020)

Soul said:


> Why do I need context? It's a question.
> Want to see how different he thinks alive Itachi is to edo Itachi.


Itachi is sick, no spamming of MS including Susanno etc.

Also as alive you can't use the fallacies that he is above V2 Raikage in speed whe in that sparring with Naruto, Naruto was not using that speed or even fighting.

Also, he will be alone vs either Nagato or Pain, Pain counter his Blade


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2020)

Baroxio said:


> I visit from time to time. Mostly visit OBD when there's a new One Piece manga chapter out and discuss shit on NF Cafe. But sometimes it's nice to go back to my roots. Do you miss me?


Yeah, good posts are rare here now


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 2, 2020)

Money on jiriaya 
If he gets Kk feats 
Lol


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