# lucci v. zoro + sanji



## trance (Mar 11, 2020)

been awhile since we've had this matchup and with a lot of new faces since then, im curious as to what sorta responses we'll get 

enies lobby arc versions only obviously

intel: full

mindset: ic but with intent to kill

distance: 30m

location: luffy v. lucci


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 12, 2020)

Lucci whoops that ass.


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Zoro and Sanji may be mid/high diff. Luffy alone won in extreme diff fight. Zoro vs Kaku was may be high, Sanji vs Jabura was mid. But this is 2 vs 1 so should be much harder for Lucci.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

trance said:


> been awhile since we've had this matchup and with a lot of new faces since then, im curious as to what sorta responses we'll get
> 
> enies lobby arc versions only obviously
> 
> ...


Lucci destoyes.



*Spoiler*: __ 







That is actual steal and Zoro had trouble cutting that!

They get one shot  by this:


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## neonlight (Mar 12, 2020)

Sanji and Zoro will take this around mid-high diff.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

neonlight said:


> Sanji and Zoro will take this around mid-high diff.


Lucci is at the minimum is 2 times stronger than Kaku.

He one-shots Sanji with Rokugan and then proceeds to punish Zoro.


Zoro needed Assura to defeat Kaku.

Lucci has 2 times the doriki, mastered his DF, he has hybrid form, Is the only one who can do Rokugan meaning he mastered the Rokushiki.

Sorry guys this one what done do death.

Lucci has better steal cutting feats than Zoro in that arc.
He is faster than anyone not named G2 Luffy and stronger that anyone not named G3 Luffy.

forced those 2 technics to an extreme diff.

Zoro uses Asura, Lucci goes full speed and dodges that.

 There is nothing you can do if your speed us below G2 Luffy vs all-out Rob.


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## Gledania (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Lucci is at the minimum is 2 times stronger than Kaku.



No.


Ren. said:


> He one-shots Sanji with Rokugan and then proceeds to punish Zoro.



You realise that if Zoro manage to use his iron cuting attack he will end him easily ?



Ren. said:


> Lucci has better steal cutting feats than Zoro in that arc.



The flying what ???


Ren. said:


> He is faster than anyone not named G2 Luffy and stronger that anyone not named G3 Luffy.



And how much G2 luffy is faster than Kaku and Jabura ?? tell me more ...


Ren. said:


> Zoro uses Asura, Lucci goes full speed and dodges that.



Assuming he can.... Zoro will aim multiple places in the same time. 


Ren. said:


> There is nothing you can do if your speed us below G2 Luffy vs all-out Rob.



Attack him while he's focusing on someone else ??? You don't seem to understand what 1v2 means ...


Ren. said:


> That is actual steal and Zoro had trouble cutting that!


That wasn't even a named attack. Zoro can cut steal he already showed that in alabasta.


Ren. said:


> They get one shot by this:



He'll get one shot bydiable jambe or shishi sonson.

That's not how fight work. He's not gonna hur dur jump on sanji jur dur jump on zoro with them not being able to move an inch.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Gledania said:


> You realise that if Zoro manage to use his iron cuting attack he will end him easily ?


No he does have the speed to do that!
And he is harder that this crap, one attack that shits on Bluneno was taken by him many times and he survived  a G3 and fought back.

Zoro gets KO by a G3 attack!


Gledania said:


> And how much G2 luffy is faster than Kaku and Jabura ?? tell me more ...


It was bitch-slapping Blueno, that fast.


Gledania said:


> Assuming he can.... Zoro will aim multiple places in the same time.


Yeh he does because he did ... Rob has going tow to two with G2 so yeah nope.


Gledania said:


> Attack him while he's focusing on someone else ??? You don't seem to understand what 1v2 means ...


You don't understand that he will go all out for sanji and KO him and that will be a 1vs1 fight!


Gledania said:


> He'll get one shot bydiable jambe or shishi sonson.


Yes because they also can do that to G2?

Do I need to post when Zoro said if Rob survives they are all dead?


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## Steven (Mar 12, 2020)

Lucci is almost twice as strong as Kaku

He moops the floor with them

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gledania (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> No he does have the speed to do that!


Prove it.


Ren. said:


> Zoro gets KO by a G3 attack!


???? Based on ?



Ren. said:


> And he is harder that this crap


Harder than what ???


Ren. said:


> It was bitch-slapping Blueno, that fast.


And blueno is way weaker than kaku ...


Ren. said:


> Yeh he does because he did ... Rob has going tow to two with G2 so yeah nope.


Which doesn't mean much.


Ren. said:


> ou don't understand that he will go all out for sanji and KO him and that will be a 1vs1 fight!



Or that sanji will dodge/block him while Zoro will attack him from behind ?


Ren. said:


> Yes because they also can do that to G2?


What do you mean ?


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Acno said:


> Lucci is almost twice as strong as Kaku
> 
> He moops the floor with them


These dudes aka Z boys don't understand that Lucci is not Kaku in any department : speed , durabilty, attack power, DF etc.


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## Gledania (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> These dudes aka Z boys don't understand that Lucci is not Kaku in any department : speed , durabilty, attack power, DF etc.



And you failed to prove evidence that G2 luffy or Rob lucci can Speed blitz Zoro/Sanji *in the same time* by using that non sens logic "Lucci got twice the douriki of kaku".
Base luffy could BARELY reach blueno because of his speed who doesn't have even half of Kaku douriki yet I don't see you saying Zoro/Sanji speed is twice the speed of Base luffy.


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Acno said:


> Lucci is almost twice as strong as Kaku
> 
> He moops the floor with them


Even if he has twice their douriki,Jabura was mid and Kaku was high at best. Zoro and Sanji had a lot of fuel in reserve after their fights. Lucci can't win this. He needs to be 4 or even 5 times stronger than Kaku.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Gledania said:


> Base luffy could BARELY reach blueno because of his speed who doesn't have even half of Kaku douriki yet


A what?

*Spoiler*: __ 








Base my man.


vs this :



Gledania said:


> Base luffy could BARELY reach blueno because of his speed who doesn't have even half of Kaku douriki yet I don't see you saying



Wrong see above.


Corax said:


> Even if he has twice their douriki,Jabura was mid and Kaku was high at best. Zoro and Sanji had a lot of fuel in reserve after their fights. Lucci can't win this. He needs to be 4 or even 5 times stronger than Kaku.


Mate that is not only the doriki, he has mastered the Rokushiki to suck extend that he can use something that can harm Luffy from blunt damage, he can restore his power by altering with his DF, he has Hybrid form and he hit harder that anyone else.

Zoro will not survive this:


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## Gledania (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Base my man.



Blueno himself stated he was underestimating him. You could clearly see in Water 7 he blocked and dodged Luffy with ease. This time he tried to black him and failed. After that he complained from underestimating his opponent;

After that he and luffy fought each other to a stalemate and until chapter 387 page 15 where luffy decided that he needed G2 to deal with him.


Ren. said:


> Mate that is not only the doriki, he has mastered the Rokushiki to suck extend that he can use something that can harm Luffy from blunt damage


Irrelevant on wether he can or not one shot sanji and Zoro. Let alone attack one of the so quick the other can't aim him on the same time.


Ren. said:


> he has Hybrid form and he hit harder that anyone else.



You gonna need more proof that he  is way above Kaku and Jabu interm of damage.

If Sanji or Zoro manage to hit him good , the other will finish him with a finishing blow. Facing 2 opponent is not the same as facing 1


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Gledania said:


> Blueno himself stated he was underestimating him. You could clearly see in Water 7 he blocked and dodged Luffy with ease. This time he tried to black him and failed. After that he complained from underestimating his opponent;
> 
> After that he and luffy fought each other to a stalemate and until chapter 387 page 15 where luffy decided that he needed G2 to deal with him.


Did you check the actual pages?

Should I use that vs Zoro in Water 7, no mate I use a base Luffy that fought Blueno and a Base Puch almost KO him, he could reach in base to him.

He underestimated so he used his fruit then got one shoted.



Gledania said:


> Irrelevant on wether he can or not one shot sanji and Zoro.


Yes it is Rokugan almost one shoted Luffy and he is made out of Ruber, Sanji gets KO.


*Spoiler*: __ 











Gledania said:


> You gonna need more proof that he is way above Kaku and Jabu interm of damage.


He is way above if his base alone was 4000 doriki he has rokugan and hybrid.


Gledania said:


> If Sanji or Zoro manage to hit him good ,


they won't similar to how only G2 could go tow to tow and that shit one-shot Blueno with a pistol.


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## Gledania (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Should I use that vs Zoro in Water 7, no mate I use a base Luffy that fought Blueno and a Base Puch almost KO him, he could reach in base to him.



And I wa seaking about speed reactivity. Not the strenght of the punch


Ren. said:


> Yes it is Rokugan almost one shoted Luffy and he is made out of Ruber, Sanji gets KO.



Assuming He reach sanji and get time enough to use rankugan before zoro attack him from behind and vice versa. And no Sanji wont get KO


Ren. said:


> He is way above if his base alone was 4000 doriki he has rokugan and hybrid.


And If Kaku bas alone was 2000 than his DF even more.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Gledania said:


> And If Kaku bas alone was 2000 than his DF even more.


Kaku gets what?
O wait a 1h herbivore DF and no hybrid and no Rokugan.
GG you won the argument!


Gledania said:


> Assuming He reach sanji and get time enough to use rankugan




*Spoiler*: __ 





Don't assume use panels, used it vs G2 and G2 way faster than Sanji!

Rokugan + this:


Sanji is dead.

That kick did this:


Sorry, Sanji or Zoro is not tanking that nor Luffy!


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## Beast (Mar 12, 2020)

Lucci was getting eaten by G2 luffy for a while... only when Luffy started to wear out did he finally start matching and beating him. 
G2 luffy> hybrid Lucci> base Lucci> Base luffy. 

Sanji and Zoro ain’t losing to Lucci in a two vs 1 lol. 

Lucci can’t 1Shot either of them either.


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## Dunno (Mar 12, 2020)

Lucci was 1,8 times stronger physically before Kaku got his DF. We don't know what the difference was once Kaku got his DF. Lucci is a purely physical fighter, which means that he needs to be stronger physically than Kaku just to equal him. Zoro also beat him easier than Luffy beat Lucci. There's also the databooks claiming that Luffy and Zoro were equal at the time. Zoro might take this alone, and together with Sanji it's an easy victory.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Dunno said:


> Zoro also beat him easier than Luffy beat Lucci. There's also the databooks claiming that *Luffy and Zoro were equal at the time. Zoro might take this alone,* and together with Sanji it's an easy victory.


@Acno  see what I am talking about.

Now Zoro is equal with Luffy with G2 and G3.

Zoro also would beat Luci easier 

NO mate manga >>>>>>>>>>>>>> databook
And Zoro gets one-shot by this alone:


Luffy from the start had G2+G3 so no Zoro is not doing better vs Luci.

I forgot how crap was to discuss this ...



Dunno said:


> Lucci was 1,8 times stronger physically before Kaku got his DF


+ mastered and hybrid DF + mastered Rokushiki that were used in combination with DF + Rokugan.

Kaku got a herbivore DF with  no mastery 

And Zoro needed a mid-battle PU to finish him, before he was getting pushed.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gledania (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Sorry, Sanji or Zoro is not tanking that nor Luffy!



Luffy was still fine after the attack , he coughed some blood but was still fine fighting. Sanji and Zoro will too.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Gledania said:


> Luffy was still fine after the attack , he coughed some blood but was still fine fighting. Sanji and Zoro will too.


LUFFY  can tank this:


*Spoiler*: __ 





But look at this:



Or this:


Zoro and Sanji are not immune to blunt damage and can't tank two hits like those.
The second one even Luffy can't as he needs to dodge it.

As I said Sanj in here:


Gets at least KO.




Also, I laugh that all those that voted against ROB are Zoro fans


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## Beast (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> LUFFY  can tank this:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Blunt damage doesn’t nothing to luffy or did you forget that?


Zoro and Sanji survive Kumas shockwave, no way Lucci could put them down with his little trick.


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## Dunno (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> @Acno  see what I am talking about.
> 
> Now Zoro is equal with Luffy with G2 and G3.
> 
> ...


Lucci had his DF when his douriki was measured, Kaku did not. Zoro is better at tanking shit than Luffy, as was shown at TB. Anything that Luffy can tank, Zoro can tank better. Zoro didn't get a mid-battle power-up anymore than Luffy did. And the databooks were authored by Oda. They are not canon, but they are still written by him. They are way more convincing than you.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Zoro and Sanji survive Kumas shockwave, no way Lucci could put them down with his little trick.


LOL ... They survived the after effect Luci is doing internal damage that is not even remotely the same thing.


MasterBeast said:


> Blunt damage doesn’t nothing to luffy or did you forget that?


That was my point, this does damage even to blunt immunity.


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## trance (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Sorry guys this one what done do death



it has

but its been awhile and i wanted to see what sorta shitstorm discussion you newbies could have 

and maybe it hasnt been awhile since the last time this was done here (didnt bother to look) but oh well


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## Lyren (Mar 12, 2020)

Lucci mid diff, neither Zoro nor sanji endurance are near luffy's to whitstand lucci punchs

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Dunno said:


> Lucci had his DF when his douriki was measured, Kaku did not.


Doriki does not include mastery of DF or Rokusjiki only physical power.


Dunno said:


> Zoro is better at tanking shit than Luffy, as was shown at TB.


False as always and this shit was debunked by the manga itself, Luffy shown better feats in ID and Marine Ford let alone what he has shown in WCI vs Zoro in Wano.

Let alone that Luffy is immune to blunt damage.



Dunno said:


> Zoro didn't get a mid-battle power-up anymore than Luffy did.


Yes he did, Luffy had that before the fight with Luci, Zoro always does that, he did that vs Mr1 also.


Dunno said:


> And the databooks were authored by Oda.


The new one says that Luffy was always stronger than Zoro in pre-TS so that is also false and as I said panels > SBS>>>>>>> data books.



Dunno said:


> They are not canon, but they are still written by him


They include also false things like Sabo was dead


Dunno said:


> They are way more convincing than you.


Yes, my panels are more convincing that something that was not written by Oda and databooks are not written by ODa.


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## Beast (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> LOL ... They survived the after effect Luci is doing internal damage that is not even remotely the same thing.
> 
> That was my point, this does damage even to blunt immunity.


Kumas shock wave>> luccis attack.
Both cause internal damage, Kumas just has a wider range and more power to cause such a shock thanks to his fruit. It’s not even a contest, you’re trying to compare says Sanjis flames to the flames of the mera fruit, just doesn’t make sense.

What?
Luccis Rokogun (or whatever it’s called) is a shockwave attack not a blunt one and he has do the hold the person in place to do the attacks he can’t freely spam it from any direction.  Luccis attack isn’t more powerful or lethal then Moriah punch, it’s just Luffy is totally immune to one but not the other.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Kumas shock wave>> luccis attack.


Kuma did never hit them like Lucci on Luffy, what did you not understand?


This is not the same to this:




trance said:


> to see what sorta shitstorm discussion you newbies could have




I did this to death and each post is the same and all come from the Z boys that think I did not already debunked them before 

I am out, going to do something productive.


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## Beast (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Kuma did never hit them like Lucci on Luffy, what did you not understand?
> 
> 
> This is not the same to this:


Because Kuma has more power and range with his shockwave.

He does not have to hold anyone to shock them, he can throw airpressured cannons from his paws lol.

Luccis weakness is not his strength bruh.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ludi (Mar 12, 2020)

Some assumptions:
Hybrid Lucci > Base Lucci ~ Giraffe Kaku > Base Kaku

Seems decent.

Zoro using Asura attack > Giraffe Kaku >= Base "limited" Zoro >= Base Kaku > Sanji

Seems acceptable.


Adding these together Hybrid Lucci ~ Zoro using Asura > Base Lucci ~ Giraffe Kaku >= Base "limited" Zoro >=  Base Kaku > Sanji

I guess?

We have no idea of the Asura attack of Zoro potential vs Lucci, but assuming that vs Kaku was a high diffish, it feels like Zoro has to basically one shot Hybrid Lucci with that Asura attack to make his team win. I dont think Sanji can stall the fight by much if that fails.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Because Kuma has more power and range with his shockwave.
> 
> He does not have to hold anyone to shock them, he can throw airpressured cannons from his paws lol.
> 
> Luccis weakness is not his strength bruh.


Mate Luci did that on-point blank to the internal organs.

Kuma did an explosion.

Stop equating them.

They are not the same.

It is irrelevant that the damage is higher and the AOE is bigger because the point of the attack was to damage organs and not to make AOE damage...


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## Beast (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Mate Luci did that on-point blank to the internal organs.
> 
> Kuma did an explosion.
> 
> ...


Do you know what Kumas powers are?



Ludi said:


> Some assumptions:
> Hybrid Lucci > Base Lucci ~ Giraffe Kaku > Base Kaku
> 
> Seems decent.
> ...


Sanji was stronger then Kaku lol.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Do you know what Kumas powers are?


Do you understand my point or not?

When did Sanji or Zoro tank something from Kuma point-blank?

Let alone that these Two are now stronger in TB?

If Luffy almost collapsed because of Rokugan then sure Sanji can't take that or the next cut that can cut steel will finish him.

And that was all about this.


MasterBeast said:


> Do you know what Kumas powers are?


That would be relevant if Kuma Fough Zoro and landed a point black attack!

Since he never did your point is irrelevant:

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Do you understand my point or not?
> 
> When did Sanji or Zoro tank something from Kuma point-blank?
> 
> Let alone that these Two are now stronger?


It doesn’t matter what your point is tbh. You’re trying to differentiate Kumas shockwaves from luccis... which is okay, but not when you’re trying to use the weaker attack to hype a character. 

Shickwaves as well as Kumas air cannons do internal damage, it bypasses durability. 
Why do you think Franky was 1HKO’d from the one air cannon even though it hit him from the front with his iron skin? 


Zoro and Sanji were stronger then Kaku and Jybra by a decent amount. 
 Lucci was the sole exception of the CP9 but there is no way he could ever hope to 1HKO zoro or sanji, that’s a laughable statement.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> You’re trying to differentiate Kumas shockwaves from luccis


No ...

I said that Zoro nor Sanji took a hit from Kuma like this:

So there rest is irrelevant.


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## Ludi (Mar 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Sanji was stronger then Kaku lol.


Based on what? For real, idk. Stronger than base Kaku or Long neck Kaku?

I dont think the second one, so lets assume you mean that, then:

Adding these together Hybrid Lucci ~ Zoro using Asura > Base Lucci ~ Giraffe Kaku >= Base "limited" Zoro >= Sanji > Base Kaku  

Still if Zoro with his Asura attack:
> Hybrid Lucci team win even without Sanji, so team wins mid diff at worst
= Hybrid Lucci, team wins high-extreme diff
~< Hybrid Lucci extreme diff either way
< Hybrid Lucci, team loses.

For me the match depends on Zoros strongest attack basically.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> 1HKO zoro or sanji, that’s a laughable statement.




 I can bet with you that this can kill even Luffy if landed.

And my point was Rokugan and that like in here:


And Sanji is KOed.


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## Beast (Mar 12, 2020)

Ludi said:


> Based on what? For real, idk. Stronger than base Kaku or Long neck Kaku?
> 
> I dont think the second one, so lets assume you mean that, then:
> 
> ...


The fact that Jybra and Kaku are basically equals and sanji mid/ high diff.



Ren. said:


> I can bet with you that this can kill even Luffy if landed.
> 
> And my point was Rokugan and that like in here:


It has to land... Zoro would cut Lucci in half with his Ashura attacks.... again, if it lands.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> It has to land... Zoro would cut Lucci in half with his Ashura attacks.... again, if it lands.


Read the damn manga:


Now Assura an immovable mode is faster than G2 that was dogged and caught by Lucci.

Let alone that Luci has survived G3:


And we had G3 vs Assura:
G3 was on top vs pacifista.


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## Ludi (Mar 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> The fact that Jybra and Kaku are basically equals and sanji mid/ high diff.
> 
> 
> It has to land... Zoro would cut Lucci in half with his Ashura attacks.... again, if it lands.


Wasnt that before his DF? Also I am not sure how well Sanji can fight vs a simar strenght fighter but with Swords. I would put Sanji below no Asura Zoro and I think he would have extremw diff vs Hybrid Kaku, either way.


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## Dunno (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Doriki does not include mastery of DF or Rokusjiki only physical power.
> 
> False as always and this shit was debunked by the manga itself, Luffy shown better feats in ID and Marine Ford let alone what he has shown in WCI vs Zoro in Wano.
> 
> ...


Douriki includes whatever makes you physically stronger. If the DF makes you stronger, your douriki will increase. 

We are talking about EL Luffy and EL Zoro. I don't care about ID or MF, since Zoro didn't have any feats at that time. We got conclusive proof at TB that Zoro's endurance was superior to Luffy's. 

Luffy is immune to blunt damage, but Lucci's rokushiki ignores that immunity. 

Luffy didn't get a power-up against Blueno, and Zoro didn't get a power-up vs Kaku. Against Mr.1, Oda showed us that Zoro learned it during the fight, while against Kaku Oda showed us that he simply brought it out. 

Pre-TS is not the same as EL. Luffy went through ID and MF while Zoro didn't do anything except his regular training. Of course he would pull away from Zoro after all that. The text you linked even strengthens my point. "Combat strength ranks just behind the captain" implies that Zoro was slightly weaker than Luffy pre-TS. This means that even after Luffy went through ID and MF, the difference between the two was slight, meaning that it was even smaller or even non-existant before that. 

The databooks are not canon and have contained false information, but so has the SBS and even the manga. The SBS has claimed that my mother is stronger than Kaido and Akainu and the manga has shown that Luffy lost his hands and that the Gorosei are the leaders of the WG. Just google the databooks and you'll see who the author is.


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## Beast (Mar 12, 2020)

Ludi said:


> Wasnt that before his DF? Also I am not sure how well Sanji can fight vs a simar strenght fighter but with Swords. I would put Sanji below no Asura Zoro and I think he would have extremw diff vs Hybrid Kaku, either way.


The  douriki doesn’t pick up DF abilities, just physical stats.
Jybra had the better fruit for fighting and as Well as experience in both DF use and Rosuski techniques being the oldest and Kaku the youngest iirc.

Ashura Zoro is literally one attack not a mode, so he can’t be above Sanji twice, just as DJ is attacks and not a mode at least back in pre TS. 
Sanji is stronger then Kaku, forget base, hybrid and all that stuff.


Ren. said:


> Read the damn manga:
> 
> 
> Now Assura an immovable mode is faster than G2 that was dogged and caught by Lucci.
> ...


Not sure what you’re trying to say.
Lucci needs to land a big hit to get a KO but just like anyone with any fighting skill, Sanji could dodge completely, while Zoro could block completely...
also, wrong quote but I guess Lucci really can move with the shockwave ability.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Sanji could dodge completely, while Zoro could block completely...


How can you dodge a shock wave LOL?
How can Sanji dodge when I showed you that Lucci caught G2 and counter it.


And he survived a G3 by backing down and so he will do that vs Asura but he does not have to because he is way faster than that mode so Asura does not land.

And Asura + Diable Jambe was used on a pacifista and G3 did more damage than both combined.

G2 was doing shit:




Dunno said:


> The databooks are not canon and have contained false information, but so has the SBS and even the manga.


I don't need to :


Luffy was always stronger.



Dunno said:


> Douriki includes whatever makes you physically stronger. If the DF makes you stronger, your douriki will increase.


No, the DF does not make  Kaku faster or stronger nor does not make him have Rokugan or  hybrid so him getind a subpar DF that is not carnivore before a match is nothing vs what I said.



Dunno said:


> We are talking about EL Luffy and EL Zoro. I don't care about ID or MF, since Zoro didn't have any feats at that time. We got conclusive proof at TB that Zoro's endurance was superior to Luffy's.


Yes and you quoted TB feats so let me get this you say that EL had better endurance because of TB but when Luffy shown  way better feats after TB, you ignore it?

Do you know how many times this argument was made?

Zoro can't survive in TB this alone:


What are you equating now is a falacy?

Zoro will never have the same tanking ability because one he uses swords and that is not his body and 2 Luffy is imune to blunt damage so there is no way to equate those two.


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## Ludi (Mar 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> The  douriki doesn’t pick up DF abilities, just physical stats.
> Jybra had the better fruit for fighting and as Well as experience in both DF use and Rosuski techniques being the oldest and Kaku the youngest iirc.
> 
> Ashura Zoro is literally one attack not a mode, so he can’t be above Sanji twice, just as DJ is attacks and not a mode at least back in pre TS.
> ...


I know it is an attack, but I think it is also the only feasible way for the team to win. Anyway, I let the 2 of you bash eachothers head in, im out


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## Beast (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> How can you dodge a shock wave LOL?
> How can Sanji dodge when I showed you that Lucci caught G2 and counter it.
> 
> 
> ...



Lucci attacks Sanji, Zoro attacks him. Lucci attacks Zoro and Sanji attacks him.
Both characters have the reactions to keep up with G2 luffy (you made it easy and even posted the panel), endurance and durability to not be KO’d by base Lucci punches and kicks, and attack power to go through his
Tekkai.

Luffy was not twice as strong as zoro and sanji pre TS, that much very clear.



Ludi said:


> I know it is an attack, but I think it is also the only feasible way for the team to win. Anyway, I let the 2 of you bash eachothers head in, im out


Sanjis DJ kicks would easily go through Luccis tekkai, so that isn’t the only way to bypass and beat Lucci, not that it would be a quick fight for the duo but no way they’re getting beat together, what Luffy could beat on his own pre TS.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Lucci attacks Sanji, Zoro attacks him. Lucci attacks Zoro and Sanji attacks him.


Luffy is faster that both:

Luci attacks, Sanji by a faint then dodges Zoro and attacks Sanji like here and finishes with this:


Sanj is KO.
My point never was doriki, it was hybrid + Rokugan.

Sorry, Sanji is not that of a tank as  Luffy, Zoro does not have blunt immunity so he takes damage, his swords don't protect him against Shock waves.

Lucci can dodge G2 attacks and counter them so he can do that to Assura that is slow as fuck and, Lucci's relative speed is with G2 that is faster than Sanji.


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## Ludi (Mar 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Sanjis DJ kicks would easily go through Luccis tekkai, so that isn’t the only way to bypass and beat Lucci, not that it would be a quick fight for the duo but no way they’re getting beat together, what Luffy could beat on his own pre TS.


To me the attacks Luffy needed to take down Lucci are just on another tier than the attacks Sanji or Zoro could use at that moment, maybe bar Asura eventhough thay might be too slow, thats why. But maybe I am wrong, who knows.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dunno (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> How can you dodge a shock wave LOL?
> How can Sanji dodge when I showed you that Lucci caught G2 and counter it.
> 
> 
> ...


Zoans make people stronger and faster, that's what they do.

That text is obviously about pre-TS Zoro. It even brings up that he trained under Mihawk.

During TB both Luffy and Zoro got endurance feats, and Zoro's were clearly superior to Luffy's. Durning ID and MF, we have no feats to compare with from Zoro, so they are not clearly superior. Just like we can't claim that Luffy's MF feats show that he had better endurance than Kong, we can't do so regarding Zoro. Feats are only comparable to other feats, not to an absense of feats.

Zoro does not have the same immunity to physical attacks or electrical ones, no. Zoro couldn't beat Enel for example. Lucci's attack bypass this immunity though, which means that the point is moot in this match-up. What I'm saying is that Zoro is able to absorb more damage than Luffy before going down.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Dunno said:


> That text is obviously about pre-TS Zoro


And EL and TB are pre TS Zoro.


Dunno said:


> and Zoro's were clearly superior to Luffy's.


No, they were not.


Dunno said:


> oro does not have the same immunity to physical attacks


So Zoro can't endure what Luffy can so how did you deduce that Zoro can take more because of TB LOL?


Dunno said:


> What I'm saying is that Zoro is able to absorb more damage than Luffy before going down.


No, he does not, Zoro always blocks with a sword, he never endures a hit, learn to differentiate.
This myth that Zoro has better endurance that Lufy was debunked by the manga every time when Luffy endured more and the TB is a plot point, learn to differentiate.

Or next time I will tell you that this is all it takes to put current Zoro down:


Both this and TB are plot points not what normally Zoro can take.

Let me debunk that with every arc of OP for you:



That was even before EL, what he did in EL then what he did in MF, ID and then what he did in WCI etc.

Luffy never was inferior to anyone in his crew in will, stamina and endurence.


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## Beast (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Luffy is faster that both:
> 
> Luci attacks, Sanji by a faint then dodges Zoro and attacks Sanji like here and finishes with this:
> 
> ...


No, Lucci dodges to left and Sanji dodges to right... Zoro comes from above and boom. 


This is not how things work in the battldome bruh. If you want to write your own headcanon that’s cool but that’s not how it works. 

Sanji went on the take the Kumas shockwave, after the beating the from Oarz and later went on to tank a laser in SA, it’s your personal opinion that sanji cannot take the beating... when in fact he can. 

Lucci has a move that could kill Zoro or sanji if it lands at point blank range... but then so do Sanji and Zoro. 


This is too old a topic for me to even bother looking for feats. 

G2 luffy is faster then Sanji yes, but he is also faster then Lucci... only from overusing it did he start slowing down and Lucci started countering him, before that Lucci could not react nor stop Luffys advance in G2. Sanji is not so much slower then G2 luffy that he would not be able to react, neither would Zoro tbh, without any more power ups, both Sanji and Zoro are seen reacting to attacks far faster then Lucci could dish out. 

They have the stats to keep up with Lucci, speed wise, strength wise, endurance and durability, as well as arsenal ranging from short, Mid and long range attacks just like Lucci except there is two of them and just one of Lucci.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> No, Lucci dodges to left and Sanji dodges to right... Zoro comes from above and boom.


And they finish him, someone that needed G2 talk about fan fiction, see yours.


MasterBeast said:


> f you want to write your own headcanon that’s cool but that’s not how it works.





MasterBeast said:


> Lucci has a move that could kill Zoro or sanji if it lands at point blank range... but then so do Sanji and Zoro.


Luci is faster and stonger then both you never shown something that they can put vs G2 ... and you are talking about fan fiction.


MasterBeast said:


> Lucci has a move that could kill Zoro or sanji if it lands at point blank range... but then so do Sanji and Zoro.


Luci with his move that can kill them he is as fast as when he was fighting G2 aka faster than both, Zoro will never land his moves on Lucci and DJ is not fast or strong enough to KO Lucci that out lieve a G3 > DJ+Assura as seen in Shabondy.

I understand you point but I think I did enough of a job with all of the panels and we don't agree.


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Zoro took all Luffy's damage on top of his. He easily can take all his EL beating and fight Lucci. Though this may or may be not enough to solo idk. But with Sanji in his team he wins of course.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Mercurial (Mar 12, 2020)

Did Zoro not say at EL that if Rufy does not beat Lucci all of them are dead? Cannot find the panel with this statement but I remember that to exist. Anyway, I think that EL Zoro < Lucci < TB Zoro. EL Zoro + EL Sanji might win against Lucci, 2 vs 1.


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## Vivo Diez (Mar 12, 2020)

I love how this forum went _from_ _saying_ that pre-ts Zoro was almost equal to pre-ts Luffy, _to_ _saying_ that Luffy could beat both Zoro and Sanji at once.

There is a happy medium guys ...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Did Zoro not say at EL that if Rufy does not beat Lucci all of them are dead?


He did but Zoro is equal to Luffy it seams 

@MasterBeast I had a blast with the discussion.


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## Steven (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> Even if he has twice their douriki,Jabura was mid and Kaku was high at best. Zoro and Sanji had a lot of fuel in reserve after their fights. Lucci can't win this. He needs to be 4 or even 5 times stronger than Kaku.


They cant pass his tekkai

Lucci´s defense and firepower>Sanji/Zorro



Ren. said:


> @Acno  see what I am talking about.
> 
> Now Zoro is equal with Luffy with G2 and G3.
> 
> ...


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Acno said:


> They cant pass his tekkai
> 
> Lucci´s defense and firepower>Sanji/Zorro


Nothing indicates that they can't. Even G2 punches were able. May be even base gattling,can't rember did he use his gattling finisher in base or G2. But irrelevant. Asura and DJ are stronger than G2.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> Even G2 punches were able


Even ...


Corax said:


> Asura and DJ are stronger than G2.



G2 literally shits on them
What were you reading?


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## Steven (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> Nothing indicates that they can't. Even G2 punches were able. May be even base gattling,can't rember did he use his gattling finisher in base or G2. But irrelevant. Asura and DJ are stronger than G2.


Lol yes,shit like Ashura or DJ are stronger than G2...the Captains form which was able to finish Lucci...

G2 Ruffy can solo´s Zoron the Moron and Sanji as well


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> May be even base gattling


Fan fiction.


Acno said:


> Lol yes,shit like Ashura or DJ are stronger than G2...the Captains form which was able to finish Lucci...
> 
> G2 Ruffy can solo´s Zoron the Moron and Sanji as well


Neah he used G3 to solo Lucci.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 12, 2020)

A few things:

- Even in base, Luffy is faster, stronger, more durable and more agile than Zoro and Sanji.

- Luffy and Franky going wild couldn't even get Franky through a door that Lucci was guarding because Lucci is that skilled.

- Lucci did not have haki but was still visibly superior to be base Luffy. Luffy is made of rubber and was getting rocked around. Sanji and Zoro have no such defense

- Lucci's physical stats were double those of Kaku and Jabra who Zoro and Sanji were basically breaking even with.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> Nothing indicates that they can't. Even G2 punches were able. May be even base gattling,can't rember did he use his gattling finisher in base or G2. But irrelevant. Asura and DJ are stronger than G2.


What? Youre devauling the shit out of the Gear 2nd boost. This isn't the postskip versions of these characters.

Zoro was having trouble with Kaku's tekkai. Kaku took named moves to the chin without his tekkai breaking and Zoro had to bring out his focused steel cutter in an attempt to break through Kaku's defense.

Sanji never did shit to Jabra's tekkai obviously.

Lucci is vastly superior to those two.
Sure, Asura and Diable Jambe can likely break and burn through Lucci's tekkai but they have to land those hits first.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Acno said:


> Lol yes,shit like Ashura or DJ are stronger than G2...the Captains form which was able to finish Lucci...
> 
> G2 Ruffy can solo´s Zoron the Moron and Sanji as well


They are. Lucci took hundreds of G2 hits. Asura and DJ are highly concentrated one shot attacks. It took only 1 Asura/DJ to KO their opponents.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 12, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Lucci was getting eaten by G2 luffy for a while... only when Luffy started to wear out did he finally start matching and beating him.
> G2 luffy> hybrid Lucci> base Lucci> Base luffy.


Base Luffy is superior to Zoro and Sanji, and you know what else? Neither actually has stat modifiers. The speed and strength you saw them use vs Jabra and Kaku is the limit. They just have big power moves they can break out.


Dunno said:


> Lucci was 1,8 times stronger physically before Kaku got his DF.


Their Dokiri were measured in base though.



> We don't know what the difference was once Kaku got his DF.


About the difference between Zoro and Bandana Zoro since Kaku was evenly matched with Zoro in close quarters while in base and hybrid form. When he started overwhelming Zoro (and remember Lucci is much stronger and more skilled) it wasnt because of his physical stats increasing significantly. He just started making smart use of his fruit and firing shots with legs as well as his arms



> Lucci is a purely physical fighter, which means that he needs to be stronger physically than Kaku just to equal him.


What? Kaku, Lucci, and Jabra have all of the same powers but with different stlyes and movesets. How is Kaku somehow less of a physical fighter?


Corax said:


> They are. Lucci took hundreds of G2 hits. Asura and DJ are highly concentrated one shot attacks. It took only 1 Asura/DJ to KO their opponents.


It took two hits from Diable Jambe and to say it again, Jabra and Kaku are at half Lucci's physical power. He isnt goimg to be affected by the same hits in the same way those two were.
Lucci took, as you say, hundreds of Gear 2nd hits but still walked off Gear 3rd. Asura and DJ are now worth the damage of Gear 3rd and hundreds of tekkai smashing Gear 2nd hits combined? Come on now.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Mar 12, 2020)

Sanji was breaking through Jybras tekkai with every kick.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> Asura and DJ are highly concentrated one shot attacks. It took only 1 Asura/DJ to KO their opponents.


And Lucci after all that took G3 and was not KOed and G3 shits on DJ+Asura combined as seen in Shabody!


MasterBeast said:


> Sanji was breaking through Jybras tekkai with every kick.


Luffy almost one-shot Blueno is base.

Could you guys stop downplaying G2 and wank DJ and Assura to that shit level?


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> It took two hits from Diable Jambe and to say it again, Jabra and Kaku are at half Lucci's physical power. He isnt goimg to be affected by the same hits in the same way those two were.
> Lucci took, as you say, hundreds of Gear 2nd hits but still walked off Gear 3rd. Asura and DJ are now worth the damage of Gear 3rd and hundreds of tekkai smashing Gear 2nd hits combined? Come on now.


Lucci took only 1 G3 and said that next will KO him. So 1 G3 is worth at least hundreds of G2 punches. DJ, Asura and G3 are impossible to compare,but can he take for example DJ and Asura in the same fight if 2 G3 would have been enough?Unlikely for me at least Asura is equal if not stronger,it was a huge overkill for Kaku anyway.


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> And Lucci after all that took G3 and was not Ko and G3 shits on DJ+Asura combined as seen in Shabody!


And how did you get it?They used combined 3-way attack to beat Pacifista. It wasn't shown or stated that G3 is superior to any other attack.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> And how did you get it?They used combined 3-way attack to beat Pacifista. It wasn't shown or stated that G3 is superior to any other attack.


How about you see the panel for once.

G3 brook a ship that had steel plates, brook a tower broke a pacifista.

And now DJ = G3 or Assura that could not finish A Pacifista with  DJ combined LOL!



Corax said:


> Unlikely for me at least Asura is equal if not stronger,it was a huge overkill for Kaku anyway.


Mate you think Assura is equal or stronger that g3?


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## Mercurial (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> He did but Zoro is equal to Luffy it seems



Mmh do you have the panel for that statement? I am looking for it but cannot find it.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Mmh do you have the panel for that statement? I am looking for it but cannot find it.


I did not find it myself...


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> How about you see the panel for once.
> 
> G3 brook a ship that had steel plates, brook a tower broke a pacifista.
> 
> And now DJ = G3 or Assura that could not finish A Pacifista with  DJ combined LOL!


Luffy didn't break Pacifista.I opened chapter 511 to see the damage. It has slight cuts around arms and neck from Asura,is smoking a bit (likely from flambe shot). Overall it is intact. G3 didn't do much to be fair.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> Luffy didn't break Pacifista.I opened chapter 511 to see the damage. It has slight cuts around arms and neck from Asura,is smoking a bit (likely from flambe shot). Overall it is intact. G3 didn't do much to be fair.


Mate the Pacifista was not working.

It was working before Dj and was working before Assura

Those attacks did shit to it.

So much for your concentrated shots.


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Mate the Pacifista was not working.
> 
> It was working before Dj and was working before Assura


It wasn't working from overall accumulated damage. It wasn't torn apart by G3 shot as you said. All 3 attacks contributed equally. May be Asura even more as it was at least cut a bit.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> It wasn't working from overall accumulated damage. It wasn't torn apart by G3 shot as you said. All 3 attacks contributed equally. May be Asura even more as it was at least cut a bit.


How do you know that?

I really want to know your logic?

Let's not even compare the collateral damage or the prior damage the G3 did.

And Assura did more, how by cutting the upper lear or the PAcifista. was it not a one-shot move?


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> How do you know that?
> 
> I really want to know your logic?


Logic is simple. All 3 attacks were needed to beat a strong enemy. Classic shounen trope.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> Logic is simple. All 3 attacks were needed to beat a strong enemy. Classic shounen trope.


No no no, There was not a concentrated attack, Pacifista survived first and second and did not for the third.

Another example: Ors was defeated by G3.

Also, it was overkill or Kaku Assura well the same logic it was overkill G3 for  Pacifista.

G3 can destroy steel plates of the ships that Zoro can't cut with Shishinon at the end of EL and can crush steel doors that DJ will not do yet you say they are the same level!


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> Lucci took only 1 G3 and said that next will KO him. So 1 G3 is worth at least hundreds of G2 punches. DJ, Asura and G3 are impossible to compare,but can he take for example DJ and Asura in the same fight if 2 G3 would have been enough?Unlikely for me at least Asura is equal if not stronger,it was a huge overkill for Kaku anyway.


Lucci took a Gigant Pistol _after_ multiple Gear 2nd attacks which were all strong enough to smash Lucci's tekkai, something that many of Zoro's attacks failed to do to Kaku (who is again, much weaker and less skilled than Lucci) The damage stacks. Lucci almost blacked iirc out but was still able to get up and continue fighting.

Kaku is obviously inferior to Lucci but wasnt actually knocked out immediately or immobilized by Asura. Jabra even took a DJ hit straight but was still able to continue fighting. 

If we say that Lucci would fall to Asura and DJ hits, we're saying that Asura is equal to G3 and DJ is equal to dozens of Gear 2nd hits. Do you believe that is the case?

Zoro and Sanji are weaker than Luffy. Its obvious to me that their power moves are not going to he as effective as Luffy's nor does either have the skill, speed, and power to land enough hits to whittle Lucci down as Luffy did.


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> No no no, There was not a concentrated attack, Pacifista survived first and second and did not for the third.
> 
> Another example: Ors was defeated by G3.
> 
> Also, it was overkill or Kaku Assura well same logic it was overkill G3 for  Pacifista.


Pacifista took damage from first,second,third and lost in the end. It was a consecutive barrage of attacks. And actually only Asura left visible damage on it to be fair.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> Pacifista took damage from first,second,third and lost in the end. It was a consecutive barrage of attacks. And actually only Asura left visible damage on it to be fair.


Then Assura was not an overkill all the other attacks did the damage and Assura was a finisher, was it not?

Also :


Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Kaku is obviously inferior to Lucci *but wasnt actually knocked out immediately or immobilized by Asura*. Jabra *even took a DJ hit straight but was still able to continue fighting.*





Oberyn Nymeros said:


> If we say that *Lucci would fall to Asura and DJ hits*, *we're saying that Asura is equal to G3* and D*J is equal to dozens of Gear 2nd hits.* Do you believe that is the case?




Sorry, it does not work only for Zoro.

If G3 is above Assura and Lucci took a lot of G2 that can one-shot Blueno then Assura means nothing vs Lucci.


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Zoro and Sanji are weaker than Luffy. Its obvious to me that their power moves are not going to he as effective as Luffy's nor does either have the skill, speed, and power to land enough hits to whittle Lucci down as Luffy did.


Why you don't believe that they are equal?For example both Asura and G3 destroyed exactly the same towers. As for DJ and G2 hits I don't know how to compare them directly but Jabura had the strongest tekkai,I doubt that only one gattling would have been enough to beat him.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> but Jabura had the strongest tekkai


Fanfiction Lucci is twice as strong as him his Tekais shits on Jabura's

His Tekai made his survey G3 > Asura so stop with the fanfiction


Corax said:


> Asura and G3 destroyed exactly the same towers.


What are you talking about?


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Fanfiction Lucci is twice as strong as him his Tekais shits on Jabura's
> 
> What are you talking about?


Just read Asura chapter and G3 chapter and you will see. Well if you don't have time I can tell that Asura overpowered Kaku's zoan ranyaku that sliced judgement tower in half and KO him.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> Just read Asura chapter and G3 chapter and you will see.


I just read And as I said, G3 destroyed a pacifista , Pacifista survives Assura.

G3 destroys steel plates of Ship and Steal door, Zoro can't cut those at the end of EL.


Corax said:


> Asura overpowered Kaku's zoan ranyaku that sliced judgement tower in half and KO him.


So did G3 vs Pacifista, yet one overpowered and the other only contributed

I don't know from where you have this idea that Assura is the same level as G3 but the only thing that Assura overpowered was Kaku that is 2 times weaker than Luci and Luci survived with his Teakai a lot of G2 that can one-shot Blueno and G3 that is above Assura so Zoro is not doing any solo with only Asura.

So basic math Assura can't one-shot Lucci so that is that.



Corax said:


> ranyaku that sliced judgement tower in half and KO him.


Yes and that is below this: 


This is not having a small cut this is total destruction + almost KO Lucci through tekai.


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Yes and that is below this:
> 
> This is not having a small cut this is total destruction + almost KO Lucci through tekai.


Even Kaku's ranyaku sliced judgement tower in half that was may be (I am to lazy to calc) bigger than this. Asura not only overpowered it but sliced Kaku's zoan tekkai at the same time. It isn't weaker.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> Even Kaku's ranyaku sliced judgement tower in half that was may be (I am to lazy to calc) bigger than this. Asura not only overpowered it but sliced Kaku's zoan tekkai at the same time. It isn't weaker.


Mate it cut a small line this one destroyed the tower.

You are really downplaying G3 and I know why.

G3 goes through Lucci's block + Tekai >> Kaku's tekai


*Spoiler*: __ 







Crushes Steal plates ticker several times than Mr1:


This is a  thcik steal door:

The impact slides the tover


The steal door is crushed.




Kaku is not overpowered just cut and he is still conscious:




Pacifists survived DJ:

and  Assura:


So much for your finishers.


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Kaku's inferior ranryaku can pretty much do the same (cut tower,slice steel battleship etc.).


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> Kaku's inferior ranryaku can pretty much do the same (cut tower,slice steel battleship etc.).


Show me a panel?
Do you always lie or this is a first?

Mistaken like always that is Luci:


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Show me a panel?
> Do you always lie or this is a first?
> 
> Mistaken like always that is Luci:


You already posted it. Guess who sliced that top of the tower that Luffy could only slide (he didn't destroy the building by his G3 attack)?


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> You already posted it. Guess who sliced that top of the tower that Luffy could only slide (he didn't destroy the building by his G3 attack)?


Mate that tower is not made out of steal, what are you smoking now?

This is pure steal:

Way thicker than Mr1.

This is not made out of steal not even close and it was cut not destroyed:


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> Why you don't believe that they are equal?


Zoro and Luffy are not equal.


> For example both Asura and G3 destroyed exactly the same towers.


Asura didnt destroy anything though it did disperse Kaku's attack.



> As for DJ and G2 hits I don't know how to compare them directly but Jabura had the strongest tekkai,I doubt that only one gattling would have been enough to beat him.


Jabra was a tekkai specialist which isnt the same as having the strongest just as Sanji being the CoO specialist doesn't give him future sight and Zoro being the CoA specialist doesn't give him the bursting haki that damages you without direct contact. 

Tatsumaki from Zoro couldnt break Kaku's tekkai. Can you imagine how strong Gear 2nd hits had to be to smash through Lucci's tekkai?


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Mate that tower is not made out of steal, what are you smoking now?
> 
> This is pure steal:
> 
> Way thicker than Mr1.


It has steel beams and steel doors (like the one Luffy had to use G3 to breach). For example in chap. 402 black steel beams are clearly visible on many pages.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> It has steel beams and steel doors (like the one Luffy had to use G3 to breach). For example in chap. 402 black steel beams are clearly visible on many pages.


No, it is not ...

This is a tick ass door made out of steal and that is a concrete tower.

Here no steal:


There is no steal, there never was, the only one that cut steal is  Luci and Zoro vs Mr1 with Shisonson.


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> No, it is not ...
> 
> This is a tick ass door made out of steal and that is a concrete tower.
> 
> Here no steal:


Black elements are from steel. Also later in Nami vs Kumadori a few black beams are clearly visible. Cutting a steel isn't even a feat post Mr1 Arabasta.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> Black elements are from steel. Also later in Nami vs Kumadori a few black beams are clearly visible. Cutting a steel isn't even a feat post Mr1 Arabasta.


Mate do you not understand the difference between a concrete wall who might have iron beams, no steal is used for that and a steal door ticker many more times than mr1?


Here the size of it:


That is securitized shelter door

Yes so tell me why Zoro can't do it that easily after Mr1 if it is that easy?


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## Corax (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Mate do you not understand the difference between a concrete wall who might have iron beams, no steal is used for that and a steal door ticker many more times than mr1?
> 
> Yes so tell me why Zoro can't do it that easily after Mr1 if it is that easy?


He can why not?He used Lion song vs Kaku,just it wasn't enough. Asura is just a massively stronger attack than both Kaku's ranryaku and Lion song.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> He can why not?*He used Lion song vs Kaku,just it wasn't enough*. Asura is just a massively stronger attack than both Kaku's ranryaku and Lion song.


So he can't as easy as you said!

Are yoy doing this on purpose, I just shoved you that G3 > Assura and no he can't cut even with Lion's song and Assura steal as easy!

See here:


Made out of steal.



Way less ticker then that door.


You did not prove how is Asura even close to G3.

And  Lucci suffered 100 as you said of G2 and 1 G3 so Assura will never defeat him.

I am ending this I am getting bored.


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## Sherlōck (Mar 12, 2020)

Lucci wins extreme difficulty.

I can see some Zoro could easily beat Luffy's opponent argument after a long time here .


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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> LUFFY  can tank this:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...





Ren. said:


> No ...
> 
> I said that Zoro nor Sanji took a hit from Kuma like this:
> 
> So there rest is irrelevant.





Ren. said:


> How can you dodge a shock wave LOL?
> How can Sanji dodge when I showed you that Lucci caught G2 and counter it.
> 
> 
> ...


 Are you forgetting Zoro taking Luffy’s damage in TB in addition to his own and staying conscious throughout it? All those panels of you arbitrarily comparing damage are worthless

Zoro will take all of those Lucci hits. Lucci beats Zoro extreme diff, with Sanji it’s a definite W for the duo

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 12, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Are you forgetting Zoro taking Luffy’s damage in TB in addition to his own and staying conscious throughout it?


That's holds no relevance to combat considering that Zoro couldnt even move with that much damage. You dont have to beat Zoro that badly to render him unable to fight. That was pure overkill that affected Zoro well into the next arcs even with medical attention and healing time.


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## Steven (Mar 12, 2020)

Corax said:


> They are. Lucci took hundreds of G2 hits. Asura and DJ are highly concentrated one shot attacks. It took only 1 Asura/DJ to KO their opponents.


1 hit against weaker enemys wow...


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## MakotoFujimoto (Mar 12, 2020)

Sanji has no long range attacks, didn't have the reflexes to keep up with Soru, nor the speed either. All Sanji had was his Diable Jambe which ignored Tekkai. 
Zoro had strength, reflexes, and range, and speed, but I doubt it was be up to par with Lucci. 
They both defeated their Enies Lobby opponent with mid diff, imo.

I think that Zoro can fight Lucci long enough for Sanji to create any opening to use his Diable Jambe and deal some serious damage.


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## Vivo Diez (Mar 12, 2020)

At the end of the day, Kaku and Jyabura didn't push Zoro and Sanji anywhere near extreme diff.

Sanji was dealing damage fine to Jyabura without resorting to DJ. He was dodging his attacks and breaking through his tekkai with non DJ named attacks. People are forgetting that the only real attacks Jyabura pulled off that did any significant damage were either through leaving Sanji exposed via emotional manipulation or the one instance where he used a novelty zigzag attack where he jumped around in random directions.

Interestingly enough, Zoro and Kaku's fight was portrayed somewhat on more equal terms. We did see Zoro start breaking through Kaku's defenses when he started using some of his upper tier moves. Kaku then proceeded to land an attack and launched a barrage of other non stop attacks. But then, let's also not forget that Zoro didn't just block or deflect Kaku's _strongest attack_ with Asura, he _literally dispersed it_ and proceeded to one shot him in that form.

I do believe Zoro & Sanji have a possibility of eventually overwhelming Lucci and winning. The combined power of DJ and Asura should should at least match a single G3 attack, so they have a good chance of dealing some good damage as well.

The real debate here is speed and reflexes and how many Rokuogan can Lucci land one either of them while having to constantly defend from both. That single move was what swung the battle back in Lucci's favor really.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Are you forgetting Zoro taking Luffy’s damage in TB in addition to his own and staying conscious throughout it? All those panels of you arbitrarily comparing damage are worthless
> 
> Zoro will take all of those Lucci hits. Lucci beats Zoro extreme diff, with Sanji it’s a definite W for the duo


Already addressed this and no Zoro never had more durability or endurance

also:



Oberyn Nymeros said:


> That's holds no relevance to combat considering that Zoro couldnt even move with that much damage. You dont have to beat Zoro that badly to render him unable to fight. That was pure overkill that affected Zoro well into the next arcs even with medical attention and healing time.


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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 12, 2020)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> That's holds no relevance to combat considering that Zoro couldnt even move with that much damage. You dont have to beat Zoro that badly to render him unable to fight. That was pure overkill that affected Zoro well into the next arcs even with medical attention and healing time.





Ren. said:


> Already addressed this and no Zoro never had more durability or endurance
> 
> also:


 the very same Luffy was knocked unconscious from less damage, since Zoro also had his own damage in addition to it. Luffy would have also suffered for at least as long as Zoro.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Vivo Diez said:


> attacks and breaking through his tekkai with non DJ named attacks.


Lucci with his tekai survived all that shit + G3 so that is not relevant to Lucci,


Vivo Diez said:


> or the one instance where he used a novelty zigzag attack where he jumped around in random directions.


Lucci was doing that always against G2 at the end.


Vivo Diez said:


> But then, let's also not forget that Zoro didn't just block or deflect Kaku's _strongest attack_ with Asura, he _literally dispersed it_ and proceeded to one shot him in that form.


Yes but that was a slash and was weaker then what Lucci can do and Lucci uses Rokugan that is not a slash and I don't see it been dispelled or even not landing.


Vivo Diez said:


> I do believe Zoro & Sanji have a possibility of eventually overwhelming Lucci and winning


I doubt it.


Vivo Diez said:


> The combined power of DJ and Asura should at least match a single G3 attack,


They need to both land to be close to G3 


Vivo Diez said:


> The real debate here is speed and reflexes and how many Rokuogan can Lucci land one either of them while having to constantly defend from both.


I agree.


Vivo Diez said:


> That single move was what swung the battle back in Lucci's favor really.


My point in this thread.


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> the very same Luffy was knocked unconscious from less damage, since Zoro also had his own damage in addition to it. Luffy would have also suffered for at least as long as Zoro.


No, he did not, he already proved that in Alabasta, ID, MF and  WCI and I can use his fight with Killer to prove my point whenever you will use TB.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 12, 2020)

MakotoFujimoto said:


> Sanji has no long range attacks, didn't have the reflexes to keep up with Soru, nor the speed either. All Sanji had was his Diable Jambe which ignored Tekkai.
> Zoro had strength, reflexes, and range, and speed, but I doubt it was be up to par with Lucci.


Whoah, massive Zoro wank.
Sanji has the edge on Zoro in speed and reflexes. We clearly see Sanji being able to land far more hits than Zoro could against Kaku, and he also kicked the shit out of Jabra mid Soru.



> They both defeated their Enies Lobby opponent with mid diff, imo.


Word? So they both had gas left in the tank yet Zoro still didnt think the crew could survive Lucci if Luffy couldn't? Interesting.

BTW, I think its clear that both Zoro and Sanji would have lost if not for their power moves. Zoro was being overwhelmed with no response and Sanji as well with his inability to cause serious damage.


xmysticgohanx said:


> the very same Luffy was knocked unconscious from less damage, since Zoro also had his own damage in addition to it. Luffy would have also suffered for at least as long as Zoro.


He wasnt knocked unconscious, he fell asleep. Luffy always fall asleep once his fight is done.


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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 12, 2020)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> He wasnt knocked unconscious, he fell asleep. Luffy always fall asleep once his fight is done.


 what chapter is it again


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> what chapter is it again


End Of TB and  Luffy was almost unheard in TB: only nightmare, G2 ad 3rd and the rest was immune to so I do want to see what is this about because it was debunked before a lot of of times.


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## Tenma (Mar 12, 2020)

I don't have a particular opinion on this fight

but what's this nonsense about Zoro needing Shishi sonson to cut steel by EL?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Tenma said:


> I don't have a particular opinion on this fight
> 
> but what's this nonsense about Zoro needing Shishi sonson to cut steel by EL?


Then read again.

Also, that shit is not made out of steel 

This is :

CONTEXT:


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## Tenma (Mar 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Then read again.
> CONTEXT:



...You _are _aware Pacifistas aren't made of ordinary steel, right?


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## Ren. (Mar 12, 2020)

Tenma said:


> ...You _are _aware Pacifistas aren't made of ordinary steel, right?


You are aware that it is still seel?



And that door is denser that anything.


or this:




I would appreciate if you read the thread first and only after post.


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## Tenma (Mar 13, 2020)

Ren. said:


> You are aware that it is still seel?
> 
> 
> And that door is denser that anything.



Yoru is also made of steel, and no pre-TS Strawhat is denting that.

Also scaling the door to high-tech Pacifistas in terms of durability is just goofy, not to mention irrelevant to anything I said. 

The Pacifista example is particularly bad since thr very first reveal of it makes explicitly clear their armor is harder than steel when Zoro can't cut it even with Lion's song

We know factually that Zoro can cut steel without lion's song by EL, so what's the point of posting random bait panels?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Tenma said:


> We know factually that Zoro can cut steel without lion's song by EL, so what's the point of posting random bait panels?


Post those panels, I am not baiting.

And sorry is this steel:


Let me tell you, it is not.

At best some parts of iron.


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Tenma said:


> Also scaling the door to high-tech Pacifistas in terms of durability is just goofy, not to mention irrelevant to anything I said.


Mate that was a sturdy steel door said by Luffy and by the way it is designed it is a shelter door and needed G3 for it.

As you can see in here:


G3 >> Lucci's tekai > Kakau's tekai that could not be cut even by Sishi son son, Zoro needed Assura.

The same Assura that could not cut Pacifista in Shabondy:


So yeah, read the thread or stop wasting my time.
And I am baiting, of course, I am because you did not read the thread just posted.


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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 13, 2020)

zoro can cut steel with any attack post-alabasta. Breath of steel is the only thing needed.


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> zoro can cut steel with any attack post-alabasta. Breath of steel is the only thing needed.


Then post the steel cutting panels after Alabasta.

And I mean the post says it is steel by the manga and then he cuts it no more concrete walls with iron bars or wooden cars with maybe some iron.

I will wait.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tenma (Mar 13, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Mate that was a sturdy steel door said by Luffy and by the way it is designed it is a shelter door and needed G3 for it.
> 
> G3 >> Lucci's tekai > Kakau's tekai that could not be cut even by Sishi son son, Zoro needed Assura.
> 
> So yeah, read the thread or stop wasting my time.



"that was one sturdy steel door" is...pretty pointless when again, Pacifistas aren't made of ordinary steel, making scaling pointless.

I don't even care which is stronger, its the notion that Zoro _can't cut basic steel by EL_ is ridiculous. Maybe actually try to engage what I'm actually saying instead of just babbling stuff about tekkai that I didn't even bring up?


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## Tenma (Mar 13, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Post those panels, I am not baiting.
> 
> And sorry is this steel:
> 
> ...



...why would a train made to travel on water be made of iron?


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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 13, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Then post the steel cutting panels after Alabasta.
> 
> And I mean the post says it is steel by the manga and then he cuts it no more concrete walls with iron bars or wooden cars with maybe some iron.
> 
> I will wait.


 i'll do you something better

Mihawk attacked daz bones and it did nothing. Mihawk himself. Once he saw he was daz bones, Mihawk one shot him. All you need is to use the proper breath


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Tenma said:


> I don't even care which is stronger, its the notion that Zoro _can't cut basic steel by EL_ is ridiculous.


Then mate show me the panels, that cart is made out of wood and maybe iron or steel of lower density and size nothing to what I was posting.


Tenma said:


> Maybe actually try to engage what I'm actually saying instead of just babbling stuff about tekkai that I didn't even bring up?


Maybe you will read the thread and stop posting carts that for you are the same level as a shelter door made out of steel that needed G3 and was not completely crushed.

Stop accusing me of shit when you are deflecting with each post.

I did this because you did not even bother to read the thread when I posted a lot of panels but hey Zoro can do it then post the damn panels and we can both be less defensive.


Tenma said:


> ...why would a train made to travel on water be made of iron?


Why would it be made out of steel, also this is not I am asking, post the damn manga panels.

And you don't need that much steel, you need simple anti-corrosion paint!

And if you have read the thread it was about steel relative to G3 and Lucci's tekai so when you interjected you did not even bother to read the context.

And G3 also did finish a Pacifista:


And assura did not:



All of that was in the context of this:

You are not even trying.


xmysticgohanx said:


> Mihawk attacked daz bones and it did nothing. Mihawk himself. Once he saw he was daz bones, Mihawk one shot him. All you need is to use the proper breath


Yes and that is Mihawk not pre TS Zoro 

That is irrelevant to  Zoro, if he can do that then  Shisonson and Assura should at least cut Pacifista but they did not.

And I can up with this:


This slash was for WB and it did not go past Jozu.

And please don't tell me that Zoro as Mihawk did not try:


So there are different hardness to objects, so posting randoms cars or walls will never be an argument, if it is not implied by the manga that it is steel and hard.

And WB is an advance COA user:


So either this has limits or WSS is an imbecile, you can choose.

I really don't have time for no limit fallacies when Zoro is always defended.

I am out


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## Corax (Mar 13, 2020)

Actually Asura did cut Pacifista and you can clearly see it in post fight chapter. Even more so he sliced through original Kuma himself by inferior attack.


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Corax said:


> Actually Asura did cut Pacifista and you can clearly see it in post fight chapter.


Actually not my point ....


Just to debunk your statement, the marks are on his clothes.

A superior G3 attack that was not even a pistole but a riffle just below a bazooka could not dent a Pacifista so an Asura + DJ combo is not doing shit to it structure-wise.



Corax said:


> Even more so he sliced through original Kuma himself by inferior attack.


Wrong as always:


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## Steven (Mar 13, 2020)

If G3 can barely harm Lucci,than Zoron and Sanji cant do shit


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## Vivo Diez (Mar 13, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Lucci with his tekai survived all that shit + G3 so that is not relevant to Lucci


It's not about surviving, I'm talking about damage dealing. Sanji isn't reliant on DJ to be able to break through the tekkai of the third strongest of the CP9. It was more so pointed towards the people that all they remember from the Sanji fight is him using DJ, when beforehand Sanji was dodging Jyabura's attacks and landing hits.


Ren. said:


> Lucci was doing that always against G2 at the end.


Nah he wasn't.



Ren. said:


> Yes but that was a slash and was weaker then what Lucci can do and Lucci uses Rokugan that is not a slash and I don't see it been dispelled or even not landing.


Weaker than what Lucci can do with Rokugan, I agree. But Rokugan is the closest range type of attack you can do and takes a fraction of time to execute. That's a significant disadvantage of the attack when he's fighting two at once.


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Vivo Diez said:


> It's not about surviving, I'm talking about damage dealing. Sanji isn't reliant on DJ to be able to break through the tekkai of the third strongest of the CP9. It was more so pointed towards the people that all they remember from the Sanji fight is him using DJ, when beforehand Sanji was dodging Jyabura's attacks and landing hits.


We already knew that and I agree.


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## trance (Mar 13, 2020)




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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 13, 2020)

How the fuck this shit have 5 pages
The story literally told us Luffy was the only one who can beat Lucci 
Meaning the duo gets maimed


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 13, 2020)

Lucci dies.


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Claudio Swiss said:


> How the fuck this shit have 5 pages
> *The story literally told us Luffy was the only one who can beat Lucci *
> Meaning the duo gets maimed


Do not underestimate the wank power of the Z boys.


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## Vivo Diez (Mar 13, 2020)

Claudio Swiss said:


> How the fuck this shit have 5 pages
> The story literally told us Luffy was the only* one* who can beat Lucci
> Meaning the duo gets maimed


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## Yuji (Mar 13, 2020)

Can't see any way Zoro doesn't one shot with Asura.

Sanji gets mid diffed though.


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Yuji said:


> Can't see any way Zoro doesn't one shot with Asura.


Because if you have read the thread G3> Assura and Lucci has survived that.

Also, Zoro is too slow for Lucci.


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 13, 2020)

Doesn’t even negate my point neither sanji and zoro are doing anything to Lucci 
Story+portrayal >fanboy delusion in this thread

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vivo Diez (Mar 13, 2020)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Doesn’t even negate my point neither sanji and zoro are doing anything to Lucci
> Story+portrayal >fanboy delusion in this thread


It does. For your point to be true the way you've interpreted it, it would mean Lucci could solo, outside of Luffy, all of the strawhats + Franky all at once.


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## Yuji (Mar 13, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Because if you have read the thread G3> Assura



Not true, your argument was that gear 3 defeated a Pacifista, when in reality gear 3 managed to finish off an already severely weakened Pacifista after everybody else attacked, it wasn't an attack in isolation and they even acknowledge this.


Also, Zoro was still severely weakened during that whole encounter

Reactions: Like 4


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Yuji said:


> Not true, your argument was that gear 3 defeated a Pacifista, when in reality gear 3 managed to finish off an already severely weakened Pacifista after everybody else attacked, it wasn't an attack in isolation and they even acknowledge this.


So at worse Gear 3 is equal to Assura.

Irrelevant point, already addressed.

For your statement to be close to even close to the truth you have to prove that Assura did damage, even the most damage.

And the outskin is intact to how can you convince that a cutting attack did damage when the skin is intact and there are only cuts on it's cloth.


So next you will tell me it did blunt damage like G3 that somehow defeated the Robot.



Irrelevant point overused by the Z boys aka exuses:

This is how Luffy looked before finishing Crocodile:

This is how he looked before Lucci:


So the two gattling were not full power from your logic.


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## Vivo Diez (Mar 13, 2020)

Ren. said:


> So at worse Gear 3 is equal to Assura.
> 
> Irelevent


>Asura is equal to the attack that arguably did the most damage to Lucci
>Irrelevant

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kroczilla (Mar 13, 2020)

Yuji said:


> Can't see any way Zoro doesn't one shot with Asura.





G3 + god knows how many hits from G2 couldn't bring lucci down, but a single hit from Ashura will?

Christ, your zoro wank is worse than i remember.

On topic, the duo should be able to pull it off. They were both clearly above kaku and jyabura whose combined douriki numbers > lucci and who were better than lucci in at least one skill (Jyabura with tekkai and kaku with rankyaku).


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Vivo Diez said:


> >Asura is equal to the attack that arguably did the most damage to Lucci
> >Irrelevant


Yes, it is irrelevant because that is the worst-case scenario and o one chance and If  Lucci survived that mean that Assura can't one shot and Zoro can't win ...

So IRRELEVANT.

Do you guys don't understand that he survived 100's of G2 attacks that can one-shot Blueno and at that point, G3 could almost KO him ... Assura alone does shit who I said is below G3.



Vivo Diez said:


> it would mean Lucci could solo, outside of Luffy, all of the strawhats + Franky all at once.


This is what it means Luffy one shoted Bluence who was relative with the stronger mid trio so yeah the only one who could hinder Lucci was Zoro and  Sanji.


Kroczilla said:


> Jyabura with tekkai


Lucci's Tenkai survived G3.

So wrong.


Kroczilla said:


> kaku with rankyaku)


Lucci's Rankyaku cut steal to the level of G3 smashing it.


Wrong again.


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Doesn’t even negate my point neither sanji and zoro are doing anything to Lucci
> Story+portrayal >*fanboy delusion in this thread*


I think I am out because this is getting boring even for me.

I am going to end with this:




Vivo Diez said:


> outside of Luffy, all of the strawhats + *Franky *all at once.


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## Yuji (Mar 13, 2020)

Ren. said:


> I think I am out because this is getting boring even for me.
> 
> I am going to end with this:



Cmon man you're above cropping panels like that, show the context


Zoro didn't want to move because they could get separated and he saw the warships as a much bigger threat than Lucci

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Yuji said:


> Cmon man you're above cropping panels like that, show the context
> 
> 
> Zoro didn't want to move because they could get separated and he saw the warships as a much bigger threat than Lucci


My point was that Zoro admits he was no ordinary guy and I don't think they need all of them to look for ships!

Zoro could have gone, yet he did not go.

Now you are projecting on me 

You only saw one it seams:


This was the context but hey got to protect that Zoro.

My last reply.


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## Yuji (Mar 13, 2020)

Ren. said:


> My point was that Zoro admits he was no ordinary guy and I don't think they need all of them to look for ships!
> 
> Zoro could have gone, yet he did not go.
> 
> ...



Official translation doesn't make it seem as bad


Also, you are omitting context once again. They were all trying to cross the bridge of hesitation. If Lucci had held them up there this would have happened


It wasn't just Lucci they were dealing with at that moment, they had to cross the bridge before the warships got to them. Franky wasn't saying Lucci would kill them, look at what happened to the bridge, that would be what killed them.


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Yuji said:


> Official translation doesn't make it seem as bad
> 
> 
> Also, you are omitting context once again. They were all trying to cross the bridge of hesitation. If Lucci had held them up there this would have happened
> ...


Again the context was the 2 panels not what you are trying to portrait there and


This is the same, some might die.


I am not going to a semantics battle when you guys even want to put Assura above G3.

When G3 was used to finish Lucci, Ors, and a Pacifista.

And Assura finished Kaku and failed against a Pacifista that was pure portrait by Oda.

So the same o same o tactics downplay one side and upscale Zoro.

Also when we arrive at semantics and translations I know I have to go.


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## Vivo Diez (Mar 13, 2020)

Now we're really scaling Lucci to be the equivalent of a pacifista ...

Ridiculous.



Ren. said:


> Yes, it is irrelevant because that is the worst-case scenario and o one chance and If  Lucci survived that mean that Assura can't one shot and Zoro can't win ...
> 
> So IRRELEVANT.
> 
> Do you guys don't understand that he survived 100's of G2 attacks that can one-shot Blueno and at that point, G3 could almost KO him ... Assura alone does shit who I said is below G3.


It wasn't 100s or even dozens and each G2 attack that landed clearly did damage to Lucci.



Ren. said:


> This is what it means Luffy one shoted Bluence who was relative with the stronger mid trio so yeah the only one who could hinder Lucci was Zoro and  Sanji.


Luffy LITERALLY did NOT oneshot Blueno. Have you even read the fight?  And Franky is stronger than Blueno.

And sure, Lucci negated Franky's attack with tekkai. But who's to say Lucci would get to do a direct tekkai defense when he's being attacked by multiple opponents? Would he shrug off a direct Coup De Vent or a Monster Chopper attack?


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## TheWiggian (Mar 13, 2020)

Zoro and Sanji destroy him mid diff.
Asura and DJ can severly damage Lucci and he needs to defend himself from 2 opponents at the same time. Not to mention that both ended their fights with far less than extreme diff and continued to fight Marine Captains.

Lucci has no way of winning this unless he shigans into the eyeballs or something which will never happen in one piece the same way Zoro won't ever cut off the head of a known character.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Vivo Diez said:


> Luffy LITERALLY did NOT oneshot Blueno. Have you even read the fight? And Franky is stronger than Blueno.
> 
> And sure, Lucci negated Franky's attack with tekkai. But who's to say Lucci would get to do a direct tekkai defense when he's being attacked by multiple opponents? Would he shrug off a direct Coup De Vent or a Monster Chopper attack?


Mate you are talking like Lucci is not fast as fuck and can spam this:

Not even Luffy survives this.

But Hey Assura one-shots but this does not ever land on Sanji or Zoro because now they are as fast as G2, this is all this thread.

Yes, you guys talk like now all of them even Franky can tag him!
Base Luci speed blitzed him and tekaied in base his strongest attack that destroyed Fukuro.

I am done sharing panels because some have their head cannon at that is all.


Vivo Diez said:


> It wasn't 100s or even dozens and each G2


I quoted an argument from this thread that was downplaying G2.

@Claudio Swiss  you were saying now nibbers were triggered and negged me without posting.


TheWiggian said:


> Zoro and Sanji destroy him mid diff.


And posted after retarded things like above.


TheWiggian said:


> way Zoro won't ever cut off the head of a known character.




Good day gents, I posted 100 panels and as counter I got fan fiction like always, Assura soloes when it only soloed Kaku and next time failed to even scratch the skin of a Pacifista.


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## Vivo Diez (Mar 13, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Mate you are talking like Lucci is not fast as fuck and can spam this:
> 
> Not even Luffy survives this.
> 
> Yes you guys talk like now all of them even Franky can tag him!


I like how you avoided admitting you were wrong and reverted back to the speed argument, but proceeded to pick the panel where Luffy was midair after a G3 attack, not even in G2, and still managed to dodge. Not a good look.

And again, its not like Franky will be 1v1ing Lucci. You yourself have now stated that Lucci that can beat all of Luffy's crew + Franky, meaning Sanji, Zoro, Franky, Chopper, Nami, Ussop all constantly performing attacks, if you think there won't be an opportunity for even Franky to land an attack in all that chaos, then you're crazy.


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Vivo Diez said:


> And again, its not like Franky will be 1v1ing Lucci. You yourself have now stated that Lucci that can beat all of Luffy's crew + Franky, meaning Sanji, Zoro, Franky, Chopper, Nami, Ussop all constantly performing attacks, if you think there won't be an opportunity for even Franky to land an attack in all that chaos, then you're crazy.


I never said that mate I said it was implied by the story.

You counter that Franky can somehow land an attack that did nothing on base Lucci.
I was giving panels for this but nice straw man.


Claudio Swiss said:


> Doesn’t even negate my point neither sanji and zoro are doing anything to Lucci
> Story+portrayal >fanboy delusion in this thread





Vivo Diez said:


> ou yourself have now stated that Lucci that can beat all of Luffy's crew + Franky, meaning Sanji, Zoro, Franky, Chopper, Nami, Ussop all constantly performing attacks,


Did I where, quote that?

Maybe you are confusing me with @Claudio Swiss

If I were I would have not been posting 60 posts of jus Zoro + Sanji vs Luci,



Vivo Diez said:


> like how you avoided admitting you were wrong and reverted back to the speed argument,


Lucci in base speed bleezed Franky with Soru, in Hybrid he will one shot  him with that,

Why do you think a team fight Lucci with superior speed would go for Zoro or Sanji and not for the weakest ?

I don;t understand but what ever.

Zoro and Sanji are not fast enough for them to protect the other, Lucci does not need to finish them all at once, and he can fly, takes his times and at the end it would only be Zoro and Saji and he can even separate both of them and kill the weakest Sanji.

None of them are as stronger and versatile as G2 Luffy to force a  n vs 1 fight.

The story was clear with that:


I am out.

And Oda already did this in Shabondy:



If you remove Luffy from Alabasta Crocodile kills All the SHP.

If you remove Luffy from Skypea Enel kills the SHP.

Remove from EL Lucci kills all the SHP.

Remove Nightmare Luffy from TB Moria kills with Ors all of SHP.

This was a theme all the Pre TS.

It seems a shock to some but I digress.


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 13, 2020)

>See the votes 
Delusions run deep in this section


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## Steven (Mar 13, 2020)

18-6

This Zorrowank is not from this world


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 13, 2020)

Acno said:


> 18-6
> 
> This Zorrowank is not from this world


Neggas here must love moss dick that badly

Reactions: Funny 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 13, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Yes, it is irrelevant because that is the worst-case scenario and o one chance and If  Lucci survived that mean that Assura can't one shot and Zoro can't win ...
> 
> So IRRELEVANT.
> 
> ...


 Kaku’s Rankyakus are > Lucci’s

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Vivo Diez (Mar 13, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Did I where, quote that?





Ren. said:


> Vivo Diez said:
> 
> 
> > It does. For your point to be true the way you've interpreted it, it would mean Lucci could solo, outside of Luffy, all of the strawhats + Franky all at once.
> ...


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## Vivo Diez (Mar 13, 2020)

Ren. said:


> If you remove Luffy from Alabasta Crocodile kills All the SHP.
> 
> If you remove Luffy from Skypea Enel kills the SHP.
> 
> ...



Ah yes, let us cherrypick all the instances where Luffy had something external that allowed him to fight and beat those opponents.

Lets ignore that against Enel, because of Luffy's rubber, he was practically immune to the majority of Enels attacks. Lets ignore, that Luffy used water to get past Crocodiles intangibility. Lets ignore that Nightmare Luffy was an insane powerup way above what base Luffy would be capable of.

Lets also ignore the fights where Luffy didn't have an external advantage that his crew didn't have: Kuro, Krieg, Arlong, Wapol. All opponents that would be destroyed if all of the strawhats had teamed up against them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 13, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Kaku’s Rankyakus are > Lucci’s


Of course the resident fool speaks his delusion

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Vivo Diez said:


>


That post does not have me ever saying that Lucci will defeat all SHP bar Luffy


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## Steven (Mar 13, 2020)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Neggas here must love moss dick that badly


Its not only NF,sadly

I know one Zorrowanker who claimed Kaido or BM cant defeat Pica because they dont have the DC


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Vivo Diez said:


> Ah yes, let us cherrypick all the instances where Luffy had something external that allowed him to fight and beat those opponents.
> 
> Lets ignore that against Enel, because of Luffy's rubber, he was practically immune to the majority of Enels attacks. Lets ignore, that Luffy used water to get past Crocodiles intangibility. Lets ignore that Nightmare Luffy was an insane powerup way above what base Luffy would be capable of.
> 
> Lets also ignore the fights where Luffy didn't have an external advantage that his crew didn't have: Kuro, Krieg, Arlong, Wapol. All opponents that would be destroyed if all of the strawhats had teamed up against them.


Mate can the SHP bar Luffy defeat Crocodile? NO
Can they defeat Enel? NO
Can they defeat  Moria + Ors? No

But you are shocked that Luci can do the same ... Damn.

What I am cherry-picking ... neah you are deflecting ... Kuro, Krieg, Arlong were all inferior to Luffy at the start of the arc and were all before Grand Line Crocodile where  Luffy was top dog before so of course Zoro and Sanji can demolish.

Then Oda does a 1 up and puts Kuma that can solo the SHOP With Luffy or without him.


I can bet with you that Kaido can solo the SHP without Luffy or with him aka the same thing with Kuma.

You guys are shocked because you think that Zoro and Sanji can replace Luffy wich it was never the case, they could never replace him even At EOS.

BB comes shits on Zoro as fast as possible where his crew kills the rest.



Acno said:


> I know one Zorrowanker who claimed Kaido or BM cant defeat Pica because they dont have the DC


oooo the old school WG Boys ... those are the worst of the worst!



xmysticgohanx said:


> Kaku’s Rankyakus are > Lucci’s


NO, it is not, Lucci cut steal, Kaku can a tower not even close.



Vivo Diez said:


> Lets ignore that Nightmare Luffy was an insane powerup way above what base Luffy would be capable of.


You don't understand, it was always the case when with Crocodile he could use his blood, Zoro can't do that.

When it was against Lucci it was G2 and G3, Zoro can never touch him with Assura alone.
When it was Enel it was simple he was immune.

Again Moria it was a temp like  Shadows.

When it will be vs Kaido it will be FS + Advance COA maybe Hawkins and Morias Buff.

When it will be about BB with his 3 awakened DF it will be some hax shit of max COO+ COC +COA.

Oda will never put Sanji and Zoro to have in the same arc the power to put the current Antagonist down just because they are a part of a monster trio and are above Luffy LOL.

And you guys need to understand that a team is not power + power so if Zoro high diffed Kaku 2200 doriki and sanji mid diffed Jabura a 2000 doriki then they can mid dif a 4000.

When the dude is way faster than both and he hits like a truck even against blunt imunity so they have fewer chances to hit and he has more damage that Kaku by a lot, you guys made it like he will never hit anything but they will hit only combos LOL.

The diff of those two do not stack.



And this is what @Claudio Swiss  was pointing with portrait and he gives two shit about the PL in  OP.

The simplest way I can put this is Me and a friend are semi-pro at boxing and we are facing a pro boxer, yes we are getting our asses kicked that was Lucci vs Zoro and Sanji.

They can hang a little but his stats are too high for them to defeat him.


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## Yuji (Mar 13, 2020)

Ren. said:


> NO, it is not, Lucci cut steal, Kaku can a tower not even close.



When?


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Yuji said:


> Iron.


Still more than a concrete Tower.



SO I will get the same answers like Assura is stronger vs G3 for this one.


For this one:


I am out.

63 posts I am out, unwatching the thread bye Gents.


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## Corax (Mar 13, 2020)

Actually slicing thick concrete tower supported by iron beams is a way better feat than partially (2/3 or 3/4) slicing battleship's wooden superstructure coated in iron. Going by canon ports Lucci's slice is at best 4-5 meters deep and ships are for the most part hollow. Kaku's cut is at least 200 meters in circle (if we count all 4 sides of Judgement tower).


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## Vivo Diez (Mar 13, 2020)

The autism in this thread is astounding. Top Tier Battledome stuff.


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## Corax (Mar 13, 2020)

Ren. said:


> So let me guess you have the iron beams of the tower and also the wood superstructure coated in iron?
> 
> As I said downplaying the actual iron on the boat with nonexistent iron beams into the tower!


If you can't really understand the difference in energy output needed to make a 200 m circular cut in concrete tower supported by iron beams and 4-5 meters cut in battleship I don't need to post any further. Majority here can understand it.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Corax said:


> If you can't really understand the difference in energy output needed to make a 200 m circular cut in concrete tower supported by iron beams and 4-5 meters cut in battleship I don't need to post any further. Majority here can understand it.


Show me the cals, I am good at math!

I think you should know the density of 5m of metal >>>>>>>>>>> of 1m of concrete that is the thickness of the walls.

But I like your claims so provide the math, I am good at that!

 200 m circular cut in the concrete tower -> this is a fallacy by the way the structure is hallowed and the only friction will be with the concrete walls.


Here, mate, this is not even reinforced concrete, that is all the restriction that he has to cut ...


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## Corax (Mar 13, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Show me the cals, I am good at math!
> 
> I think you should know the density of 5m of metal >>>>>>>>>>> of 1m of concrete that is the thickness of the walls.
> 
> ...


200 m of concrete supported by steel beams vs 5 m. of battleship iron. Kaku concentrated all of his ranryaku strength on Zoro but still was overpowered an sliced.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Corax said:


> 200 m of concrete supported by steel beams vs 5 m. of battleship iron. Kaku concentrated all of his ranryaku strength on Zoro but still was overpowered an sliced.



You have a section of the outer layer of the structure.

This is not a skyscraper it has no steel supports pillars!

You are repeating the same thing and I have been showing you that this structure is not that how you see it.

Let me also tell you if the structure had support steel pillars after the cut the structure would have imploded inwards because the structure was supported by its support pillars  ... but do continues because you seem to know a lot!


Did any of you try to cut 5m of iron?


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## Corax (Mar 13, 2020)

Ren. said:


> You have a section of the outer layer of the structure.
> 
> This is not a skyscraper it has no steel supports pillars!
> 
> ...


It is irrelevant in any case. Even 200 m of pure concrete are much harder than 5 m of iron. Kaku charged all of his ranryaku energy in his leg before pointing in towards Zoro. And it wasn't enough,its energy was dispersed and he was sliced.


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Corax said:


> Even 200 m of pure concrete are much harder than 5 m of iron


Again do you understand that you are wrong or not?

A building does not have close to 200m maybe 10m of walls is a section cut in thickness and that is concrete, not reinforced as you can see in here:



There is not concrete density for 200 of length do you understand this or not?
There are walls of 30cm on the exterior and the and the pillars if you can find me on I did no see one are like this:


That is the metal part and that is not steel.

And that is not harder to cut vs a 5m full density iron block!


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## Corax (Mar 13, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Again do you undertand that you are wrong or not>
> 
> There is not concrete density for 200 of length do you understand this or not?
> There are walls of 30cm on the exterior and the and the pillars if you can find me on I did no see one are like this:
> ...


It is far harder. His attack had enough energy to slice the tower in each point of its 200 m perimeter. And he compressed all that energy into one wave attack towards Zoro.


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## Ren. (Mar 13, 2020)

Corax said:


> in each point of its 200 m perimeter


That 200 Perimeter has  max 10m of walls of concrete like this in a line:


And the pillars would look like this  inside if it has any:


And that is way below the energy needed to cut a full iron block of 5m with full density.

Try to cut with a  grinder a wall of concrete and then try to cut a solid 5m block of iron

I really want you to flex that math on me @Sherlōck  can help you if he wants.

And that is all, you can change my mind when you bring the math for what you have said.

I really am out, I reached the point of debating syntaxes, translations and infrastructure's resistance to damage.

@Corax, @Vivo Diez  good luck, we disagree and I think I did a fair job of explaining my points.



trance said:


> been awhile since we've had this matchup and with a lot of new faces since then, im curious as to what sorta responses we'll get
> 
> enies lobby arc versions only obviously
> 
> ...


You can close the thread from my point of view :gitgud

I was defeated by the main boss a concrete wall


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## Cyrus the Cactus (Mar 13, 2020)

Wait...why is Franky suddenly an expert on how strong the Straw Hats are in EL? He was shitting his pants watching Zoro fight Ryuma. 

And 4380 > 4000, Zoro and Sanji win

Reactions: Like 2


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## Fel1x (Mar 13, 2020)

if you voted for Lucci, then you probably think Sanji and Zoro < Luffy, which can't be
Yonko FM+YC2 always > Yonko. except BB's, Kaido's and WB's crews. well, and probably BB's

even in PK crew, Ray+Scopper>Roger


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## Steven (Mar 13, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> if you voted for Lucci, then *you probably think Sanji and Zoro < Luffy, which can't be*


Because G4 shits on both?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fel1x (Mar 13, 2020)

Acno said:


> Because G4 shits on both?


G4 or not, he gonna lose against two of them at the same time

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Beast (Mar 13, 2020)

I would say Sanji and Zoro had a douriki of 2500-3000 roughly at the end of EL.


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## Steven (Mar 13, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> G4 or not, he gonna lose against two of them at the same time


Yeah no

Ruffy is FM+ level with feats

While Zorro/Sanji has YC4 feats


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## Cyrus the Cactus (Mar 13, 2020)

Acno said:


> Yeah no
> 
> Ruffy is FM+ level with feats
> 
> While Zorro/Sanji has YC4 feats



Dragon is Loguetown Smoker level with feats.

Current Chopper >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dragon


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## Ren. (Mar 14, 2020)

trance said:


> this is you my ^ (use bro)


I am this thread If I remove all my comments this will feel empty.


Acno said:


> Yeah no
> 
> Ruffy is FM+ level with feats
> 
> While Zorro/Sanji has YC4 feats


All the panels that I posted and the counter-argument is that my headcanon PL does not support so I will ignore the feats.


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## Luke (Mar 14, 2020)

Zoro + Sanji win with extreme difficulty.


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## Mercurial (Mar 14, 2020)

Cyrus the Cactus said:


> Dragon is Loguetown Smoker level with feats.
> 
> Current Chopper >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dragon


Current Chopper still could not defeat Logue Town Smoker


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## Cyrus the Cactus (Mar 14, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Current Chopper still could not defeat Logue Town Smoker



Give him basic CoA and he stomps


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## Mercurial (Mar 14, 2020)

Cyrus the Cactus said:


> Give him basic CoA and he stomps


What's the point in giving characters abilities that they do not have, I'll never understand...


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## Cyrus the Cactus (Mar 14, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> What's the point in giving characters abilities that they do not have, I'll never understand...



My main point is that current Chopper is stronger than East Blue Smoker even if Chopper can't beat him due to match-up.


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## Mercurial (Mar 14, 2020)

Cyrus the Cactus said:


> My main point is that current Chopper is stronger than East Blue Smoker even if Chopper can't beat him due to match-up.


Well it depends by how much Smoker improved from Logue Town to Marineford. At Marineford, Rufy said that Smoker was a lot stronger than he was at Logue Town. Pre TS, Smoker was a lot stronger than Rufy, but I do not think that his growth was proportionally as massive as Rufy's, due to the latter's lesser age and greater potential. Pre TS Rufy was at least Yonko Officer level, and Pre TS Smoker is better than that (he KOed Rufy in two panels of fight at Marineford). Current Chopper does not seem to be on a greater level, at the opposite, putting the Weak Trio at Officer level seem something generous. So, depending on Smoker's growth between Logue Town and Marineford (stated by Rufy), at best Current Chopper is a tier above Logue Town Smoker. But he is definitely below Pre TS Rufy let alone Pre TS Smoker.


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## Vivo Diez (Mar 14, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> So, depending on Smoker's growth between Logue Town and Marineford (stated by Rufy), at best Current Chopper is a tier above Logue Town Smoker. But he is definitely below Pre TS Rufy let alone Pre TS Smoker.


Wrong.


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## Steven (Mar 14, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Well it depends by how much Smoker improved from Logue Town to Marineford. At Marineford, Rufy said that Smoker was a lot stronger than he was at Logue Town. Pre TS, Smoker was a lot stronger than Rufy, but I do not think that his growth was proportionally as massive as Rufy's, due to the latter's lesser age and greater potential. Pre TS Rufy was at least Yonko Officer level, and Pre TS Smoker is better than that (he KOed Rufy in two panels of fight at Marineford). Current Chopper does not seem to be on a greater level, at the opposite, putting the Weak Trio at Officer level seem something generous. So, depending on Smoker's growth between Logue Town and Marineford (stated by Rufy), at best Current Chopper is a tier above Logue Town Smoker. But he is definitely below Pre TS Rufy let alone Pre TS Smoker.


Monster Chopper would oneshots Smoker if he had Haki


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 14, 2020)

>7 pages of pure delusion
Jesus


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## Cyrus the Cactus (Mar 14, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Well it depends by how much Smoker improved from Logue Town to Marineford. At Marineford, Rufy said that Smoker was a lot stronger than he was at Logue Town. Pre TS, Smoker was a lot stronger than Rufy, but I do not think that his growth was proportionally as massive as Rufy's, due to the latter's lesser age and greater potential. Pre TS Rufy was at least Yonko Officer level, and Pre TS Smoker is better than that (he KOed Rufy in two panels of fight at Marineford). Current Chopper does not seem to be on a greater level, at the opposite, putting the Weak Trio at Officer level seem something generous. So, depending on Smoker's growth between Logue Town and Marineford (stated by Rufy), at best Current Chopper is a tier above Logue Town Smoker. But he is definitely below Pre TS Rufy let alone Pre TS Smoker.



I made that post to highlight how silly "feats only" powerscaling is. Dragon's sole feat in the manga is stopping Smoker from using his Jutte on Luffy in Loguetown.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 14, 2020)

Claudio Swiss said:


> >7 pages of pure delusion
> Jesus



22>6.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 14, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 22>6.


fanboys jacking off there favorites means shit to what the story says chief


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## Vivo Diez (Mar 14, 2020)

I think this is the most I've handed out tier specialists per thread. We need to educate the young and stupid.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 14, 2020)

Yuji said:


> Cmon man you're above cropping panels like that, show the context
> 
> 
> Zoro didn't want to move because they could get separated and he saw the warships as a much bigger threat than Lucci


Those panels dont really help your argument. Zoro is specifically calling out Lucci's power as the reason they should leave it to Luffy as and why getting involved could go poorly for them.



Fel1x said:


> if you voted for Lucci, then you probably think Sanji and Zoro < Luffy, which can't be


Luffy left them behind in Eneis Lobby when he invented the gears. I don't care if you love Sanji and Zoro (don't we all?) but they have no answer for Gear 2nd. If Lucci in his leopard form cannot react to Gear 2nd and some of these lightning quick Gear 2nd hits are much, much stronger than the likes of a Tatsumaki from Zoro, how the hell are Sanji and Zoro surviving?
They caught up to Gear 2nd over the time skip......but now have no match for Gear 4 which would wreck them even harder and even faster than Gear 2nd would.



Fel1x said:


> G4 or not, he gonna lose against two of them at the same time


......how would he? How do they tag or dodge or survive Gear 4 at all?


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## Claudio Swiss (Mar 14, 2020)

Vivo Diez said:


> I think this is the most I've handed out tier specialists per thread. We need to* educate the young and stupid. *


speak for yourself nibba


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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 14, 2020)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> If Lucci in his leopard form cannot react to Gear 2nd and some of these lightning quick Gear 2nd hits are much, much stronger than the likes of a Tatsumaki from Zoro, how the hell are Sanji and Zoro surviving?


 Zoro was doing fine dodging attacks from Kuma and that has nothing to do with his new sword. My scaling is TB Zoro > Lucci > EL Zoro. If we use @Ren. ’s strategy of posting panels and arbitrarily interpreting them to be insurmountable damage/speed, then Zoro should be able to dodge most if not all of Lucci’s attacks. His strategy doesn’t work



Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Those panels dont really help your argument. Zoro is specifically calling out Lucci's power as the reason they should leave it to Luffy


 no he didn’t. He complements Lucci’s power and then says they shouldn’t go in case they got separated and because they need to make sure the bridge is still an escape route. He also says that they need to prepare for the “even bigger storm” to come.

there was basically 2 scenarios in his head:

1. Help Luffy and risk getting separated as well as risk not having an escape route

2. leave it Luffy (who they have trusted to win all his battles) and ensure that after his victory, they will have an escape route to dip

Let’s go with the weakest interpretation of Zoro and Sanji possible:

Lucci: 4000
Kaku: 2200
Jabra: 2180

Zoro: 2201
Sanji: 2181

their sum: 4382

they have a lot of room to spare. This doesn’t even take into account that Zoro and Sanji finished their battles with significantly less diff than Luffy did. In TB, Zoro’s durability/endurance is shown to be on par with Luffy’s. Whatever he lacks in speed and power, Sanji will make up for it

Reactions: Like 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 14, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Zoro was doing fine dodging attacks from Kuma


This is only relevant if we know how these attacks compare to Gear 2nd which of course, we don't. 
Considering that Zoro was only keeping pace with Kaku, he's obviously much slower than Lucci who couldnt react to (fresh) Gear 2nd for shit.



> no he didn’t. He complements Lucci’s power and then says they shouldn’t go in case they got separated and because they need to make sure the bridge is still an escape route.


Zoro is saying: _Lucci is strong. What if we joined the fight and ran into trouble?_

There is no reason to comment on Lucci's power if this isnt whats causing Zoro's hesitation and belief that helping fight him could go poorly.


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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 14, 2020)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> This is only relevant if we know how these attacks compare to Gear 2nd which of course, we don't.
> Considering that Zoro was only keeping pace with Kaku, he's obviously much slower than Lucci who couldnt react to (fresh) Gear 2nd for shit.


 Kuma's attacks were stated to be light speed. An accolade only Kizaru has gotten. Now, I am not saying Kuma is in the realm of Kizaru's speed. I'm saying that such a good accolade is worth something. Zoro's combat speed is very relevant and he would be able to keep up with and trade hits with Lucci, even if overall he is somewhat slower. And that is assuming he is slower.

Kuma is assuredly > Lucci overall. Kuma > Pacifista > Lucci



Oberyn Nymeros said:


> There is no reason to comment on Lucci's power if this isnt whats causing Zoro's hesitation and belief that helping fight him could go poorly.


 poorly because they can lose hold of their escape route, etc, etc. 

remember that they have to prepare for "an even bigger storm"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 14, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> I'm saying that such a good accolade is worth something.


Its not when in a discussion of whether Zoro can react to Gear 2nd when Lucci couldn't. Dodging Kuma's attacks holds no relevance.



> Zoro's combat speed is very relevant and he would be able to keep up with and trade hits with Lucci, even if overall he is somewhat slower. And that is assuming he is slower.


I dont know how being on par with (and actually being overwhelmed by) Kaku equates to being on par with someone with roughly twice Kaku's physical capacity.
Even with Luffy on top of him, Lucci was able to keep Franky from getting past him. I feel like youre really overestimating Zoro here.



> poorly because they can lose hold of their escape route


_Lucci is nothing to laugh at. What if we ran into trouble and got separated?_

In your interpretation, there is no point to commenting on Lucci being powerful immediately before posing the question of things going poorly. He's Just praising Lucci for the hell of it.

On this, we can agree to disagree. The language is plain to me and I doubt I can sway you.


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## Mercurial (Mar 14, 2020)

Cyrus the Cactus said:


> I made that post to highlight how silly "feats only" powerscaling is. Dragon's sole feat in the manga is stopping Smoker from using his Jutte on Luffy in Loguetown.


Oh well on that I can agree, for sure. Feats are very relevant but portrayal also is a lot relevant.



Acno said:


> Monster Chopper would oneshots Smoker if he had Haki


Even if he had Haki, which he did not have, he would never do so. He would not even tag him. Pre TS Luffy was unable to dodge Pre TS Smoker's Rogia blitz followed by jitte attack. And, in spite of his own incredible capability to withstand damage and wounds, Luffy was immediately KOed by the jitte, due to the sea stone on its tip, he was suddenly weak and unable to defend at all. 

Is Monster Chopper (pre TS) faster and more reactive than Pre TS Luffy? Not in this world. So Pre TS Smoker would easily dodge Chopper's hits and blitz around him, hitting with the sea stone jitte: and Chopper is a DF user. If a massively tougher DF user like Luffy was immediately defenseless when the sea stone hit him, you can bet on Chopper being the one who gets one shotted. He is too slow to hit Smoker, he is too slow (and too big, also) to avoid Smoker hitting him with the jitte (if Luffy could not dodge that), and he is a DF user, so the sea stone immediately puts him to the ground (if Luffy could not withstand that).

It's not just a matter of Haki. Do you see freaking Caribou stomping Pre TS Luffy like Pre TS Smoker did, just because he is a Rogia? Or, on the opposite, do you see freaking Boo (Sai's brother) or the fodders from Amazon Lily defeating Pre TS Smoker, just because they have Haki? Of course (I hope) not.


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## Dragon D Xebec (Mar 14, 2020)

Zoro and Sanji mid diffs at best.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Corax (Mar 15, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Lucci: 4000
> Kaku: 2200
> Jabra: 2180
> 
> ...


Well to be fair Jabura was mid diff,so likely EL Sanji was at least 2500. Kaku was may be high diff,but in any case Zoro wasn't lower than 2500. So both of them very likely were around 5000 douriki.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sherlōck (Mar 16, 2020)

Zoro fans live in alternate universe

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Mar 16, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Kuma's attacks were stated to be light speed.


Air will never reach LS, he said he pushed the are at LS that is the push and sorry Zoro is not that fast but carry on.

Or when he pushed them they were traveling at LS for 3 days 


Corax said:


> Well to be fair Jabura was mid diff,so likely EL Sanji was at least 2500. Kaku was may be high diff,but in any case Zoro wasn't lower than 2500. So both of them very likely were around 5000 douriki.


Irrelevant.

two guys with almost two times below the doriki will not move the same way as a guy with higher doriki in g2 and much higher AP in G3 + blunt immunity.

You guys think if Kaku has 2200 and Jabra has 2000 they defeat A 4000 doriki guy because 4200> 4000.

When they need to dodge each of them does not have 4200 doriki, when they need to block each does not have 4200 etc.

The Sum of the part is not bigger than an individual twice as strong as each part ... that really makes no sense.
Also that was only doriki, he has a better master of the DF and he can incorporate it way better with rokushiki also he has hybrid vs Kaku the stronger  Doriki and rokugan vs both.

This is as in the thread vs AH3 pure fanboysm.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Mar 16, 2020)

Zoro and Sanji win around mid-diff. Come on now. It’s been too long. The Douriki argument is tired as it refers to physical strength which is not the only deciding factor in a fight, especially not a 2v1.

Sanji beat Jyabura mid diff. Jyabura iirc was a Tekkai specialist and he casually broke his Tekkai and outsped him effortlessly. Zoro beat Kaku around high end mid diff. All this to say they weren’t really pressured in these fights and they didn’t actually *need *to use their best attacks to win. You cannot use the fact that Lucci would beat those two to claim he’d beat Zoro and Sanji. Lucci isn’t landing Roukugan on either of them because the other isn’t gonna stand there and allow him to do that to the next guy. IIRC unlike Jyabura Lucci has to remain stationary while using Tekkai. He’s not withstanding blows from both Zoro and Sanji and if he doesn’t use Tekkai and favors avoiding the attacks he’s mincemeat because he’s not consistently dodging them both coming at him.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## Ren. (Mar 16, 2020)

Conxc said:


> Zoro and Sanji win around mid-diff. Come on now. It’s been too long. The Douriki argument is tired as it refers to physical strength which is not the only deciding factor in a fight, especially not a 2v1.
> 
> Sanji beat Jyabura mid diff. Jyabura iirc was a Tekkai specialist and he casually broke his Tekkai and outsped him effortlessly. Zoro beat Kaku around high end mid diff. All this to say they weren’t really pressured in these fights and they didn’t actually *need *to use their best attacks to win. You cannot use the fact that Lucci would beat those two to claim he’d beat Zoro and Sanji. Lucci isn’t landing Roukugan on either of them because the other isn’t gonna stand there and allow him to do that to the next guy. IIRC unlike Jyabura Lucci has to remain stationary while using Tekkai. He’s not withstanding blows from both Zoro and Sanji and if he doesn’t use Tekkai and favors avoiding the attacks he’s mincemeat because he’s not consistently dodging them both coming at him.


So many fallacies.


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## Conxc (Mar 16, 2020)

Ren. said:


> So many fallacies.


Yet no argument. Don’t be boring.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Mar 16, 2020)

Conxc said:


> Yet no argument.





Conxc said:


> Yet no argument.


 = Posted 70 comments + 100+ panels.

Not my fault you did not read the thread before posting.

Again a fallacy.


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## Conxc (Mar 16, 2020)

Ren. said:


> = Posted 70 comments + 100+ panels.
> 
> Not my fault you did not read the thread before posting.
> 
> Again a fallacy.


Damn. You did all that while being wrong? Dedication.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ren. (Mar 16, 2020)

Conxc said:


> Damn. You did all that while being wrong? Dedication.


HxH fan, no wonder ...


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 16, 2020)

Conxc said:


> All this to say they weren’t really pressured in these fights


Really? They actually seemed to be getting their asses kicked before revealing their power ups.


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## Conxc (Mar 16, 2020)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Really? They actually seemed to be getting their asses kicked before revealing their power ups.


Think you need to go back and re-read especially the Sanji fight. He had the easiest time out of the 3. They were both in situations where they were like “ok, time to end this” and that’s when their “power ups” came out. This wasn’t a Mr. 1 situation. Not even close.



Ren. said:


> HxH fan, no wonder ...


Luffy fan, no wonder. I mean, you got what you wanted in present day already. You don’t have to stroke Lucci to make Luffy look good anymore. Until further notice, Luffy solos both Zoro and Sanji. Just goes to show, you can leave the Luffy D-riding to Oda. He won’t let you down.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 16, 2020)

Conxc said:


> Think you need to go back and re-read especially the Sanji fight. He had the easiest time out of the 3. They were both in situations where they were like “ok, time to end this” and that’s when their “power ups” came out. This wasn’t a Mr. 1 situation. Not even close.


I did read them both specifically for this thread. You think they were winning when they used their power up moves?



Conxc said:


> Luffy fan, no wonder. I mean, you got what you wanted in present day already. You don’t have to stroke Lucci to make Luffy look good anymore. Until further notice, Luffy solos both Zoro and Sanji. Just goes to show, you can leave the Luffy D-riding to Oda. He won’t let you down.


I wouldnt refer do that as dick riding.....it just makes Luffy the same as every other captain.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Muah (Mar 16, 2020)

I refuse to read this thread but I will add my insight. If Sanji could barely break Jyaburas tankai and Zoro could not break Kaku yenkai at all how would they even hurt Lucchi. Lucchi is faster, stronger probably better kicks than Sanji and more efficient cutting than Zoro.


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## Conxc (Mar 16, 2020)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> I did read them both specifically for this thread. You think they were winning when they used their power up moves?


I do. Especially Sanji.


Muah said:


> I refuse to read this thread but I will add my insight. If Sanji could barely break Jyaburas tankai and Zoro could not break Kaku yenkai at all how would they even hurt Lucchi. Lucchi is faster, stronger probably better kicks than Sanji and more efficient cutting than Zoro.


IIRC Zoro came close but Kaku dodged the attack. Even still, both of their attacks should be enough to break it. People are really underestimating the fact that this is a 2v1...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 16, 2020)

Conxc said:


> I do. Especially Sanji.


Here is a play by play:

Kaku vs Zoro
-Zoro draws blood with a Santoryu move
-Kaku uses Ranyaku shurikens which Zoro deflects
-Kaku knocks Zoro to the ground with his neck and starts beating him with his neck
-Kaku starts smashing Zoro with his nose
-Kaku uses both swords while using Rankyaku with his feet. Zoro is unable to counter, starts taking hits, and comments on Kaku's relentlessness.
-Kaku pauses when he see Asura starting to form (an act related to personality and not combat power)
-Zoro uses Asura

Sanji vs Jabra
-Sanji kicks Jabra's ankle and knocks him down. However Jabra dodges his follow up
-Jabra uses Area Network to slash Sanji
-Jabra knocks Sanji across the room with a punch to the side
-Jabra launches Rankyaku wolves at Sanji which land
-Jabra attacks again. Sanji tries to block but is kicked up and bounces off the ceiling
-Sanji uses Diable Jambe

At what part were Zoro and Sanji winning? Id say they were on the verge of losing before using their big moves.



> People are really underestimating the fact that this is a 2v1...


We saw Lucci engage two opponents effectively when Luffy and Franky ran up against him. Franky is weaker than Sanji, yes. However Luffy is even stronger than Zoro and neither Sanji or Zoro has an easy way to overcome Lucci's speed and defense.

Reactions: Like 2


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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 16, 2020)

Sanji’s fight overall was mid diff

Zoro’s was high, though Asura made Kaku look silly.

If he used Asura nearer to the start of the fight (did he even know it at the time?) then it would have been mid or low


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## Conxc (Mar 16, 2020)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Here is a play by play:
> 
> Kaku vs Zoro
> -Zoro draws blood with a Santoryu move
> ...


The part where Kaku and Jyabura both failed to push Zoro and Sanji anywhere near their limits. They didn’t use Ashura and DJ respectively because their backs were against the wall. They used them to wrap things up quicker. Again, neither of these fights were even close to Mr. 1 situations. The fact that these attacks insta-ended the fights should tell you how wide the gap was between them.

So you’re gonna act like 1: Franky is *at best *comparable to *base *Luffy by that point
2: Like Franky’s main goal there wasn’t to just get by Lucci and get through the door and like Luffy wasn’t just trying to get Franky through the door???

Reactions: Like 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Mar 16, 2020)

Conxc said:


> The part where Kaku and Jyabura both failed to push Zoro and Sanji anywhere near their limits. They didn’t use Ashura and DJ respectively because their backs were against the wall. They used them to wrap things up quicker. Again, neither of these fights were even close to Mr. 1 situations. The fact that these attacks insta-ended the fights should tell you how wide the gap was between them.


I see that we'll have to agree to disagree here because I dont know how getting overwhelmed, being constantly hit, and having your defense broken equates to winning.
I will say though, Gear 3rd (Luffys 'power' attack) almost one shot Lucci and he could not take a second hit so no, Kaku and Jabra falling quickly to those abilities doesnt to me speak of a large gap in strength.



> So you’re gonna act like 1: Franky is *at best *comparable to *base *Luffy by that point
> 2: Like Franky’s main goal there wasn’t to just get by Lucci and get through the door and like Luffy wasn’t just trying to get Franky through the door???


Lucci was totally comfortable in dealing with Luffy and Franky. Luffy's plan was to occupy Lucci so that Franky could run past but Lucci was so skilled that he could blow Luffy away and force Franky to engage. Dude did this with his hands behind his back. Yes a 2 vs 1 with Sanji and Zoro is a big disadvantage and it would be difficult but its not game breaking.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Conxc (Mar 16, 2020)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> I see that we'll have to agree to disagree here because I dont know how getting overwhelmed, being constantly hit, and having your defense broken equates to winning.
> I will say though, Gear 3rd (Luffys 'power' attack) almost one shot Lucci and he could not take a second hit so no, Kaku and Jabra falling quickly to those abilities doesnt to me speak of a large gap in strength.


This is an exaggeration of what actually happened. You’re saying that their “defenses were broken” as if they couldn’t do anything against them when that’s so far from the truth. If it came to that they would have lost, not won with mid-difficulty..but I’ll agree to disagree.




> Lucci was totally comfortable in dealing with Luffy and Franky. Luffy's plan was to occupy Lucci so that Franky could run past but Lucci was so skilled that he could blow Luffy away and force Franky to engage. Dude did this with his hands behind his back. Yes a 2 vs 1 with Sanji and Zoro is a big disadvantage and it would be difficult but its not game breaking.


Why wouldn’t he be? Again, Franky isn’t a threat to him at all and aside from that wasn’t even looking to engage him in the first place. Tell me why he would feel threatened in that situation. Comparing Franky to Zoro and Sanji is laughable.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nox (Mar 17, 2020)

How come nobody ever mentions Sanji and Zoro activated their new forms ONCE and ONE SHOT their opponents. Meanwhile, Luffy needed an extensive showcase of G2 and G3.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Kroczilla (Mar 17, 2020)

Muah said:


> I refuse to read this thread but I will add my insight. If Sanji could barely break Jyaburas tankai and Zoro could not break Kaku yenkai at all how would they even hurt Lucchi. Lucchi is faster, stronger probably better kicks than Sanji and more efficient cutting than Zoro.



G2 luffy was hurting (and ultimately koed) lucci when the latter was flexing tekkai.
Douriki only measures physical strength. It clearly does not take into account the skills and unique abilities of the user e.g. kaku and jyabura were the most skilled cp9 agents at rankyaku and tekkai respectively


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## Muah (Mar 18, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> G2 luffy was hurting (and ultimately koed) lucci when the latter was flexing tekkai.
> Douriki only measures physical strength. It clearly does not take into account the skills and unique abilities of the user e.g. kaku and jyabura were the most skilled cp9 agents at rankyaku and tekkai respectively


If Zoro couldn't hurt Kaku throuh tellai than he cant hurt Lucchi

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Mar 18, 2020)

Astro said:


> How come nobody ever mentions Sanji and Zoro activated their new forms ONCE and ONE SHOT their opponents. Meanwhile, Luffy needed an extensive showcase of G2 and G3.


Don’t see how that helps your point any...that just shows that you acknowledge that they could have no-low diffed them had they resorted to those moves from the start, thus emphasizing the huge gap between them and their opponents which makes a stronger case for them vs Lucci...


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## Kroczilla (Mar 18, 2020)

Muah said:


> If Zoro couldn't hurt Kaku throuh tellai than he cant hurt Lucchi


coughashuracough


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## TheWiggian (Mar 19, 2020)

Muah said:


> If Zoro couldn't hurt Kaku throuh tellai than he cant hurt Lucchi



Kaku didn't tank it with Tekkai, he intercepted it with a Rankyaku, by his expression he knew it would fuck him up and countered instead saying: "It's my decision which attack to take and which not".

But even if you ignore that Asura dispersed Kaku's strongest attack like it was nothing which is above anything Kaku has in his arsenal, Tekkai included.


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## Muah (Mar 19, 2020)

Kroczilla said:


> coughashuracough


Ashura didnt break through Kakus tenkkai. Kaku was unguarded when he was hit.


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## Muah (Mar 19, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Kaku didn't tank it with Tekkai, he intercepted it with a Rankyaku, by his expression he knew it would fuck him up and countered instead saying: "It's my decision which attack to take and which not".
> 
> But even if you ignore that Asura dispersed Kaku's strongest attack like it was nothing which is above anything Kaku has in his arsenal, Tekkai included.


 
The distance between Lucchi and Kaku is quite large. Till this day it was still Luffys toughest fight. Zoro could not break through tekkai of Kaku which is directly related to his douriki. Lucchi eith a douriki almost twice that has nothing to worry about. In fact Zoro said that if Luffy didn't stop Licchi that Licchi would kill his whole crew. Hell that's what Lucchi was going to do before that Usopp pep talk you have to be out your fucking mine to think Sanji and Zoro could take a guy like that. Luffy almost lost and he has blunt force immunity. 

Honest to god truth. Lucchi could probably deal with 80 percent of this fight without even transforming. He was baby shaking Base Luffy which believe it or not is stronger than Sanji and Zoro. Maybe they push Luffy to g2 using Ashura and DJ but it's the exact same scenario as franky.

Franky hit Lucchi after fighting owl boy and Lucchi calmly explained that his douriki  was 5 times stronger. That's like exact admittance that tekkai strenght is one to one correlated with douriki.

Point blank fact. If you struggle to beat a guy with 2200 and 2180 that does not mean you and your patner can beat a guy with a power level of 4000. It's stupid wanking and jerking off of a character that makes this forum so shit to be on.  Zoro's swords might as well be replaced with toothpicks. Ok and Sanji may or may not be able to deal some small damage with DJ but Lucchi took g3 to the fucking face and turned the tide of the fight. Fucking get real. A fucking g3 punch
 Mind you a g3 kick can split a battleship in half. 
It's not fucking happening. Lucchi mid diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Mar 19, 2020)

Muah said:


> The distance between Lucchi and Kaku is quite large. Till this day it was still Luffys toughest fight. Zoro could not break through tekkai of Kaku which is directly related to his douriki. Lucchi eith a douriki almost twice that has nothing to worry about. In fact Zoro said that if Luffy didn't stop Licchi that Licchi would kill his whole crew. Hell that's what Lucchi was going to do before that Usopp pep talk you have to be out your fucking mine to think Sanji and Zoro could take a guy like that. Luffy almost lost and he has blunt force immunity.
> 
> Honest to god truth. Lucchi could probably deal with 80 percent of this fight without even transforming. He was baby shaking Base Luffy which believe it or not is stronger than Sanji and Zoro. Maybe they push Luffy to g2 using Ashura and DJ but it's the exact same scenario as franky.
> 
> ...



Twisted words and lies.

G2 was too fast and powerful for Lucci. G3 easily overwhelmed him strengthwise. The problem were Luffy's drawbacks from the technique, if he had mastered G2 he would've defeated Lucci with high diff at worst.

Kaku tried not to tank shi shi son son, he said he decides what to tank or what not. If he rather dodges or parries a shi shi son son, there is no way he can tank Asura.

Zoro never said Lucci would kill them all, that's a straight up lie and iam sure you have no panel to back that up.

With the difference that neither Sanji or Zoro struggled and one and two shotted their opponents and went on to fight Marine captains.


Anyway iam not really interested in discussing with you further about this matter. I just corrected the lies you're trying to spread here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nox (Mar 19, 2020)

Conxc said:


> Don’t see how that helps your point any...that just shows that you acknowledge that they could have no-low diffed them had they resorted to those moves from the start, thus emphasizing the huge gap between them and their opponents which makes a stronger case for them vs Lucci...



No I am of the opinion that Zoro and Sanji are flossing Lucci's ass cheeks apart. Outside enemies who demanded Luffy uses G4, none of his previous antagonist are defeating Zoro and Sanji.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Mar 19, 2020)

Astro said:


> No I am of the opinion that Zoro and Sanji are flossing Lucci's ass cheeks apart. Outside enemies who demanded Luffy uses G4, none of his previous antagonist are defeating Zoro and Sanji.


My bad. Thought you were one saying they lose to Lucci here. Wrong thread.


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## Steven (Mar 20, 2020)

>Zorro got trashed by Lucci in W7
>Now he wins
Sure


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## Beast (Mar 20, 2020)

Acno said:


> >Zorro got trashed by Lucci in W7
> >Now he wins
> Sure


So did luffy but didn’t stop him from beating the breaks off lucci.


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## Steven (Mar 20, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> So did luffy but didn’t stop him from beating the breaks off lucci.


Ruffy didnt use G2/3 back in W7


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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 20, 2020)

Acno said:


> Ruffy didnt use G2/3 back in W7


 and Zoro got shit on by Kaku

zoro tells Kaku he’s way stronger than back then. They all are

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mr. Good vibes (Mar 20, 2020)

So we just gonna ignore the single biggest reason Luffy beat Lucci in his df allowing him not to being riddled with holes and his skeleton cracked in.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Steven (Mar 21, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> and Zoro got shit on by Kaku
> 
> zoro tells Kaku he’s way stronger than back then. They all are


After a bunch of hours?I doubt it


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## Corax (Mar 21, 2020)

Acno said:


> After a bunch of hours?I doubt it


This is shounen. They suddenly unlocked Asura/DJ/Gears etc.


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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 21, 2020)

Acno said:


> After a bunch of hours?I doubt it


 statements > headcanon

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Mar 21, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> statements > headcanon



Funny how he accepts Luffy defeating Lucci despite being several times weaker than him in W7 but Zoro didn't improve at all

Reactions: Like 4 | Funny 1


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## Law (Mar 22, 2020)

Duo wins with around high diff or so. Their opponents didn't reflect what their maximum douriki is at given that they weren't brought to their absolute limit, like Luffy and Lucci, and Kaku had like a million swords making his overall power even higher. I see Zoro giving Lucci close to high diff fight. Best strategy here would be to have Zoro and Lucci go at it and Sanji to take over before Lucci defeats Zoro, taking the W with around mid diff or close to that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## LadyVados (Dec 10, 2020)

Let’s take Zoro and Kaku out of the discussion. Sanji demolished Jabra who was more than half as strong as Lucci, we can all agree on that can’t we ? we can thus safely say he’d be a hard opponent for Lucci on his own. Add Zoro to the picture and the team should win easily.


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## Draco Bolton (Dec 10, 2020)

Mr. Good vibes said:


> So we just gonna ignore the single biggest reason Luffy beat Lucci in his df allowing him not to being riddled with holes and his skeleton cracked in.


This

*Link Removed*
*Link Removed*

Lucci win.

EL Zoro is not as fast as G2 Luffy and is likely to suffer against Shigan. Without Zoro, Sanji cannot win even if he is fast.

It will be their teamwork that will help them keep alive but it won't last forever especially if Lucci gets very serious.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 10, 2020)

Considering how they defeated their respective opponents, both Zoro and Sanji were 3000-3500 douriki. Together they would definitely defeat Lucci

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 3


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## Naisutime (Dec 10, 2020)

I don't have any opinions on the match itself, but the first half of Luffy vs base Lucci isn't nearly representative of how Lucci vs Sanji&Zoro would go down. In base the only attack that hurt Luffy is basically Rankyaku, so Lucci was fighting with a pretty severe handicap.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Heart Over Blade (Dec 12, 2020)

Two on one only means something if they survive long enough to capitalize on the advantage. Neither has the speed or haki needed to survive a Shigan to the neck from someone a tier higher than them. One of them would be dead before they could bust out Ashura or DJ

Reactions: Like 1 | Useful 1 | Dislike 1


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## Beast (Dec 12, 2020)

Luffy took them hits knowing his made out of rubber.


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## Karma (Dec 12, 2020)

Things went from Zoro is close to Luffy in power to Luffy can take on his entire crew

Reactions: Funny 2


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## NotTommy (Dec 12, 2020)

I voted Sanji and Zoro but after further consideration, I'm realizing it's not as simple as "they beat Jyabura and Kaku with some room to spare so together they can beat Rob Lucci."

Rob Lucci was honestly on another level to those directly below him in strength. It isn't just about doriki level, Lucci's feats are superior to anything Zoro, Sanji, Kaku or Jyabura had at this point in time. Not to mention how lethal Lucci's attacks are, Luffy being rubber, makes him resistant to a lot of them e.g. that finger pistol Luffy took to the throat would've, on the spot, killed either Sanji or Zoro.

The man was able to slice that steel marine ship with a single Rankyaku and was only slower than Luffy whilst Luffy was in G2. Sanji's significantly faster than Kalifa and was clearly faster than Jyabura but he doesn't have the speed feats at this point in the story to place him above Lucci's level but he seems close enough to Lucci and Zoro definitely doesn't have good enough speed feats. Durability-wise, the man took a punch from a G3 hand that dwarfed his Zoan form with his tekkai.

Though, I can still see Sanji and Zoro pulling a win. Obviously what one lacks, the other can make up for but it's unclear if what they've shown would be enough to take down Lucci.


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## TheWiggian (Dec 12, 2020)

NotTommy said:


> I voted Sanji and Zoro but after further consideration, I'm realizing it's not as simple as "they beat Jyabura and Kaku with some room to spare so together they can beat Rob Lucci."
> 
> Rob Lucci was honestly on another level to those directly below him in strength. It isn't just about doriki level, Lucci's feats are superior to anything Zoro, Sanji, Kaku or Jyabura had at this point in time.



It's only the doriki that makes you question them winning.



NotTommy said:


> Not to mention how lethal Lucci's attacks are, Luffy being rubber, makes him resistant to a lot of them e.g. that finger pistol Luffy took to the throat would've, on the spot, killed either Sanji or Zoro.



That FP was used in W7 when the strawhats were broken by Robin's betrayal and severely weaker. And even that Luffy managed to draw blood from Leopard Lucci with a simple punch, given it was surprise attack it did decent damage:


*Spoiler*: __ 









Same weaker Zoro took multiple finger pistols to the chest from Kaku and Luffy got pierced by Leo form Lucci through his torso:


*Spoiler*: __ 











A few moments later those injuries didn't even slow them down and those were weakened strawhats. His finger pistols ain't stopping Zoro or Sanji if he could even land more than a few in a 2vs1 against way stronger versions of them.



NotTommy said:


> The man was able to slice that steel marine ship with a single Rankyaku and was only slower than Luffy whilst Luffy was in G2.



One of his strongest Rankyaku's (cutting attack) performed in Leo form for highest power output. Pretty sure Sanji can replicate it if he had Rankyaku. Kaku cut through a massive tower:


*Spoiler*: __ 









And Zoro doesn't even need to be discussed considering he could do so since Alabasta. Zoro's cutting power by far outclasses Lucci in this regard:


*Spoiler*: __ 









Considering his Asura slicing power is by far above Kaku's tower slicer Amanedachi.



Lucci was outclassed by G2 in speed, he only was able to keep up when Luffy got tired. Otherwise base Luffy kept up with him most of the time:


*Spoiler*: __ 













Base Luffy kept up pretty fine with even Hybrid Lucci:


*Spoiler*: __ 











NotTommy said:


> Sanji's significantly faster than Kalifa and was clearly faster than Jyabura but he doesn't have the speed feats at this point in the story to place him above Lucci's level but he seems close enough to Lucci and Zoro definitely doesn't have good enough speed feats.



Sanji easily outclassed Khalifa without trying in speed:


*Spoiler*: __ 









And had the edge over Jyabura most of the time:


*Spoiler*: __ 












Lucci was way slower than G2, nothing suggests he is much or even any faster than Sanji or Zoro, who kept up pretty fine with Kaku and was going against 4 swords style:


*Spoiler*: __ 















NotTommy said:


> Durability-wise, the man took a punch from a G3 hand that dwarfed his Zoan form with his tekkai.



And got knocked out by it avoiding getting hit a second time at all costs:


*Spoiler*: __ 









He only could fight further because he fell on a marine ship that saved him from drowning. Also the G3 punch put lasting damage on him:


*Spoiler*: __ 









So he was way weaker than G3 and way slower than fresh G2.



NotTommy said:


> Though, I can still see Sanji and Zoro pulling a win. Obviously what one lacks, the other can make up for but it's unclear if what they've shown would be enough to take down Lucci.



No one of them lacks anything. Zoro has enough speed to easily trade blows and fight against Kaku on top of 1 shot capabilities while Sanji is as fast or faster than Jyabura and with DJ 2 shotted the dude. Both are more than capable of fighting Lucci on their own even if they might not win, but together Lucci will be hard pressed. He is no Rankyaku expert to parry most of Zoro's slashes and ain't protecting himself since he can't move with tekkai unlike Jyabura so all kicks from Sanji's will hurt alot and DJ enhanced ones will deal devastating blows, while always needing to keep his eyes on massive asura slash that can finish him no question.

It's very clear that Lucci won't win here, that much is sure.

I understand that you feel Lucci was a big threat, he was a very cool opponent and gave one of the best fights to Luffy but he isn't beating his right and left hand at the same time, who finished the next strongest opponents after him with 1-2 hits of their respective EL power-ups and went ahead to fight a buster call filled with Captain level opponents no problem:


*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Admiral Kuzan (Feb 2, 2021)

Didn't Luffy himself say that Lucci would murder his entire crew if he took his eyes off him, which is why he was so desperate to beat him? Luffy knows better than anyone how strong his crew is and I don't think he was just referring to the weaker ones like Nami and Usopp. I think Franky said something similar to like he didn't know how many of them would have died if Luffy wasn't holding up Lucci. Those are the kind of canon statements that make me think Lucci could definitely take on Zoro and Sanji and win.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrPopo (Feb 3, 2021)

Rob Lucci rapes


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## Strobacaxi (Feb 3, 2021)

Admiral Kuzan said:


> Didn't Luffy himself say that Lucci would murder his entire crew if he took his eyes off him, which is why he was so desperate to beat him? Luffy knows better than anyone how strong his crew is and I don't think he was just referring to the weaker ones like Nami and Usopp. I think Franky said something similar to like he didn't know how many of them would have died if Luffy wasn't holding up Lucci. Those are the kind of canon statements that make me think Lucci could definitely take on Zoro and Sanji and win.


Lucci could kill the entire crew 1v1. He couldn't take them together.


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## stealthblack (Feb 3, 2021)

based on math, sanji and lolo win-

4380>4000


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## maupp (Feb 3, 2021)

Some people actually voted for Lucci. 

Ironic how @Ren. was accusing people of wanking when the mere fact alone of thinking Lucci would beat the duo is actually wanking. 

Amazing what fanboyism does to someone. Won't be surprised if he'd argue that drugged Hody could beat Zoro and Sanji combined in FI, I mean he is an opponent that Luffy fought after all.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## muchentuchen (Feb 3, 2021)

Tip for your future threads: always have Zoro in the minority. An excelllent example would be Zoro vs Gold Rogers + Whitebeards.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 2


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