# Aspiring novelists gather!



## Lord Yu (May 24, 2007)

I know there are others out there like me who have books in them. Gather in this thread to discuss your work.


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## Batman (May 24, 2007)

Just droppin a line. Am currently working on my first novel. Having too much fun with the antagonist.


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## Lord Yu (May 24, 2007)

I'm 127 pages into my first novel and I've entered the second arc of the story. This is going to be a long one. :S


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## Prince Leon (May 24, 2007)

It's a good thing my eyes were staring at the screen for a while otherwise I'm not sure I would've noticed the link to this thread. xD

But yeah, I've started one novel so far (120+ pages in) but I'm itching to start another which I've been having some problems starting for a while.


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## mikoto_sen (May 24, 2007)

erm... i have a four-part series in my mind...
(i actually have the titles already...still no concrete plot...heehee)

my sister's helping me with it...


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## mystictrunks (May 25, 2007)

I'm currently turning my life into a work of fiction. Every detail I can remember from age 4 to now will be part of it.


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## Lord Yu (May 25, 2007)

I think I might split my book into 4 or 5. At the rate my story is developing I'd definitely have enough.


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## Robotkiller (May 25, 2007)

I'm planning on laying out the groundwork for my novel over the summer.

I'm still trying to decide where the people in my story draw their powers from. I can't really think of anything that's not uber-cliche.

But i'm really digging the background between my protagonist and antagonist


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## Lord Yu (May 25, 2007)

What type of books are you all writing. Mines Fantasy-sci-fi-action-horror-psychological-epic. Yes I cover alot of ground.


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## troublesum-chan (May 25, 2007)

i wanted to write a children's book. >< 

It is about little amorphous white blobs with simplistic face who create their destinies based off of what kind of plant grows out of their head.


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## Lord Yu (May 25, 2007)

I wrote a children's book once. It was kind of morbid. I keep forgetting about it. It was supposed to get published.


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## troublesum-chan (May 25, 2007)

^^ i love morbid children's books, i look through them all the time when i go to Nucleus. 

What was it about?


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## Lord Yu (May 25, 2007)

It was called Lamaktulu it was about a bad kid who gets punished by an evil creature that grew in his shadow.


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## Robotkiller (May 25, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> What type of books are you all writing. Mines Fantasy-sci-fi-action-horror-psychological-epic. Yes I cover alot of ground.



I'm aiming for a mix of Fantasy-sci-fi-action, with maybe a bit of romance later on in the series.

It's more or less a story about the dynamics of heroism and how characters cope with their desire to become heroes and defeat that sense of worthlessness that they feel in their monotonous lives.

I know it's a vague description of what i'm trying to accomplish but I have high hopes for myself.


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## HOOfan_1 (May 25, 2007)

I've fleshed out a story in my head but haven't gotten past the first page...don't have much time to write...I have been thinking up situations similar to Harry Turtledove type novels since I was a kid.


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## Kaki (May 25, 2007)

I just kinda have a dream of writing short naughty stories....


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## Lord Yu (May 25, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> I'm aiming for a mix of Fantasy-sci-fi-action, with maybe a bit of romance later on in the series.
> 
> It's more or less a story about the dynamics of heroism and how characters cope with their desire to become heroes and defeat that sense of worthlessness that they feel in their monotonous lives.
> 
> I know it's a vague description of what i'm trying to accomplish but I have high hopes for myself.



I also have quite a bit of romance in my story as well. Mine has several different perspectives. Thus making it a huge headache to summarize. I can't really pin down the overall theme of my story yet. Actually when I think about it love is a major theme in my story whether familial or romantic. Another recurring theme is Sadism but that's a little harder to grasp. I really should read my novel. Then maybe I could explain it more.


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## Lord Yu (May 25, 2007)

Kaki said:


> I just kinda have a dream of writing short naughty stories....



Do it. Maybe something interesting will come of it.


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## HOOfan_1 (May 25, 2007)

Wish I could make a living writing...other jobs just don't seem appealing at all...espcially not my current job.


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## Robotkiller (May 25, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I also have quite a bit of romance in my story as well. Mine has several different perspectives. Thus making it a huge headache to summarize. I can't really pin down the overall theme of my story yet. Actually when I think about it love is a major theme in my story whether familial or romantic. Another recurring theme is Sadism but that's a little harder to grasp. I really should read my novel. Then maybe I could explain it more.



The thing is that i'm kind of hesitant of writing about love because i've never truly experienced it in a romantic sense. I'm afraid I couldn't grasp the feeling. I try to keep a sense or realism about my characters, their faults and their thought processes are the most integral parts of the story to me. Too often do I read a story with a magical girl who wants to do anything for the hero of her dreams. We know this never happens in real life. I pride myself with being able to psychoanalyze individuals, so i'm pretty good at portraying human behavior in a realistic way.

Basically, I want to annihilate that feeling that you have whenever you read a book, that feeling that says, "No person would do _that_ in real life*

I think that if I can achieve that I can make the reader connect with my characters on a pure emotional level. Perhaps even come to love their faults, instead of hating their strengths.

In short: No fucking mary sues


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## troublesum-chan (May 25, 2007)

They all sound wonderful ^^

It would be awesome if you guys got published.


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## Kaki (May 25, 2007)

> Do it. Maybe something interesting will come of it.


 Well, I'll work on it...but they will probably be short and to the point. Its just a hobby of mine. I don't want to do it for profit. 

I wish you the best of luck.


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## Lord Yu (May 25, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> The thing is that i'm kind of hesitant of writing about love because i've never truly experienced it in a romantic sense. I'm afraid I couldn't grasp the feeling. I try to keep a sense or realism about my characters, their faults and their thought processes are the most integral parts of the story to me. Too often do I read a story with a magical girl who wants to do anything for the hero of her dreams. We know this never happens in real life. I pride myself with being able to psychoanalyze individuals, so i'm pretty good at portraying human behavior in a realistic way.
> 
> Basically, I want to annihilate that feeling that you have whenever you read a book, that feeling that says, "No person would do _that_ in real life*
> 
> ...



I am very similar. My biggest challenge however is I've never had any real romantic experience or for that matter real hard social experience. I am creating things from self designed psychology model making things out of logic and emotion then throwing them in an imaginary blender to create complex scenarios. I did not actually know what a Mary Sue was till today and I fear I may have touched upon it. But at the same time  I might not. I want to project as much real emotion as possible without cheap tactics but at the same time I would like to mindfuck readers. I love a good old fashioned mind game.


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## Robotkiller (May 26, 2007)

I know it's a tough challenge for a writer to create a likable character without making them seem....well, like a . And if you try your hardest _not_ to make a mary sue you come up with a being of pure faggotry, which isn't any better.

I like to give my characters common faults that people can identify with, like a perpetual sense of procrastination and lazyness, or feelings of self-induced isolation.

Finding a balance is hard.

Or you could just pull a Robert jordon and simply label your characters outright what you want them to be to avoid any confusion <_<


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## Kaki (May 26, 2007)

> I am creating things from self designed psychology model making things out of logic and emotion then throwing them in an imaginary blender to create complex scenarios.


 That should work fine....you don't necessarily have to experience something firsthand to write about it.


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## Lord Yu (May 26, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> I know it's a tough challenge for a writer to create a likable character without making them seem....well, like a . And if you try your hardest _not_ to make a mary sue you come up with a being of pure faggotry, which isn't any better.
> 
> I like to give my characters common faults that people can identify with, like a perpetual sense of procrastination and lazyness, or feelings of self-induced isolation.
> 
> ...



Despite finding out about Mary Sue. (I wiki'd it right after you first mentioned it>_>)  I'm ignoring the concept completely and still going on with what I've been doing. I do have the a bit of the self induced isolation going as well. But yeah I have the tragic/sad past going with some of my characters some basic some really bad. But I don't do it for the sake of forced emotion. I do it for characterization. In fact, I like to think I haven't really done anything to evoke emotion instead I've worked on showcasing character and making sure to put the character development first. That's why mine is from the 1st person perspective. I want to keep things really personal. Through the eyes of the characters how they feel.


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## Wesley (May 26, 2007)

I love reading.  I love stories.  I love writing.  What I hate is how I can't seem to be able to tolerate my own shortcomings in story-telling.  I'm deeply unhappy with any story I try to come up with.  At this point, I've pretty much given up on writing anything on my own.

I don't really know about writing in a group, but that's pretty much all I can do.  I can't really say what my strengths are, especially when compared to others.  Anything I could offer real writers would likely be able to do a better job.  

I like to think I've got a unique way of thinking, but that may just be me not being around like minded people enough.

3800!


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## Batman (May 26, 2007)

The hardest part I have with characters is namig them. While it can be fun, when you come up with something unusual, or something ordinary used in a different way, it can get taxing with all of the minor characters needed.

As far as genre. . .I'll say Coming of Age with Fantasy elements. A 4 parts series  that has the overall outline that's pretty detailed, and now I'm laying in the detailed outline for the first book, as well as the workings of the antagonist.

The biggest obstacle I have is the disbelief factor of what could be.


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## Lord Yu (May 26, 2007)

I'm great with naming characters. I tend to run off name after name for characters in a minute. Slightly less talented at places though. But I get by.


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## Batman (May 26, 2007)

I think I spend too much time agonizing over them . Lol. But I know how how weight a name can hold for a character so I continue to stress. I'm just glad I haven't been subject to rwriters block yet. (let me go knock on wood)


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## Lord Yu (May 26, 2007)

Maybe, I'm good at it is because I don't put huge weights on the names. Two of my main characters are named Michelle and Michael(lol I wasn't very good at names when I named them) Though their is a lot of stock to be had in common names even in a fantasy setting. It can make things more relatable.


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## Robotkiller (May 26, 2007)

It's important not to give your characters' names that are over thought-out. I mean yeah, that stuff is all well and good in japanese manga (lol water user is named suiton-chan). 

Remember, as long as you're not trying to make a tolkien-like fantasy realm with it's own language i'm sure naming someone jackey or katlin is fine. 

My advice if you're having trouble looking for some names with special meanings is to look up some names with latin root words.

like my name robert means: Bright Fame.

It's got a nice ring to it I think, and the meaning is pretty cool.


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## Lord Yu (May 26, 2007)

Later on, I did go nuts with fantastical sounding names. Eridaltia, Ures, Josrel, Zera, and many others. I'm not about to make up my own language like Tolkien. I only speak one real language so I can't do that. But I can go crazy with fantastical names from time to time.


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## Batman (May 26, 2007)

There's no way I could make up my own language. I don't have the attention span for something like that. Nor do I have the time, I still have another job to feed my writing habit.


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## Lord Yu (May 26, 2007)

I have the time and the madness but none of the tools.


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## Robotkiller (May 26, 2007)

I have the time and the creativity but none of the conviction


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## Lord Yu (May 26, 2007)

So what perspective do you guys write from? I write from first person. I feel it allows me to be serious yet comical at the same time. It also allows a deep view into how the character is feeling.


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## Batman (May 27, 2007)

Third person, mainly following the protagonist, but during certain key points I play the role of the omniscient. First person is difficult for me to wrap my head around as a reader, unless they're based on true events or are strictly non fiction. Though when done well, its one of the most intriguing types of reads.

I'm waiting for someone to make a *good* second person novel.


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2007)

I figured mine would be too depressing if I did it from third. I'm still thinking about doing one or two chapters in third for back story.


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## Robotkiller (May 27, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> So what perspective do you guys write from? I write from first person. I feel it allows me to be serious yet comical at the same time. It also allows a deep view into how the character is feeling.



I like to mix up my styles between a third person limited omniscient. Though I like first person perspective I find that I can write more fluently if I can change the focal point of my writing at any given time. Plus, I find that I write things too....blatently when I write in the first.

I'll come out and say things that I want the reader to infer upon after some clever observation.

Though I sometimes find it difficult to express feelings accurately in the third person. I'm not sure how I can really describe it without confusing myself.




Batman said:


> I'm waiting for someone to make a *good* second person novel.



Read _Bluebeard_ by Kurt Vonnegut (RIP). I'm pretty sure that's a second person perspective that he uses.

It's not fantasy, but it is fiction, and it's truly a good book.


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2007)

The one thing I definitely suck at is physically describing people. I tend to give ultra generic descriptors that seem very vague at best.


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## Robotkiller (May 27, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> The one thing I definitely suck at is physically describing people. I tend to give ultra generic descriptors that seem very vague at best.



i can describe people fairly well, though I like to take a gradual approach and slowly reveal physical traits about the character over time.

I'm really horrible at describing clothes. I can picture a character perfectly with all of his clothing at whatnot, but for the life of me I can't put a name to what he's wearing. I usually have to find examples in the real world that are very similiar to what I want to place on my character then just describe that in a modified way.


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2007)

Actually, one thing I forgot to mention. I keep forgetting that part of my book. I also dip into politics quite a bit. Not just generic wars either. Things like political black holes and catch 22s.


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## Insomnia (May 27, 2007)

Well, I'd like to be a professional writer, but I'm not currently working on a novel. As of now, I'm more working on my short stories to test out what my limits are and such. So no novels for me now, but aspiring writer nonetheless.


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2007)

Good luck should you ever attempt it. It's a lot of fun.


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## Robotkiller (May 27, 2007)

It's also an amazing time killer. I once spent around eight hours putting pen to paper without food or water. It's such an all-consuming act.

It's strange how I can connect with something that doesn't even exist in the physical world. Human beings are really incredible when It comes to things like that.


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## Batman (May 27, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> Read _Bluebeard_ by Kurt Vonnegut (RIP). I'm pretty sure that's a second person perspective that he uses.
> 
> It's not fantasy, but it is fiction, and it's truly a good book.



Added to my library list. 

@ Lord Yu: You're really making me want to read your book. I love political intrigue!


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## Robotkiller (May 27, 2007)

Batman said:


> Added to my library list.
> 
> @ Lord Yu: You're really making me want to read your book. *I love political intrigue!*



Have you read _A song of Ice and Fire_, by George R.R. Martin?

That's some of the best fantasy political intrigue ever written

If there's one book that I must recomend to a friend it'd be that one.


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## Batman (May 27, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> Have you read _A song of Ice and Fire_, by George R.R. Martin?
> 
> That's some of the best fantasy political intrigue ever written
> 
> If there's one book that I must recomend to a friend it'd be that one.



You're making my list longer and longer. I'll spend so much time reading I won't get any work done.


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> Have you read _A song of Ice and Fire_, by George R.R. Martin?
> 
> That's some of the best fantasy political intrigue ever written
> 
> If there's one book that I must recomend to a friend it'd be that one.



I have that book on my computer. I should read it.


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## Robotkiller (May 28, 2007)

DO IT!

It's hands-down the greatest fantasy epic I've ever read.


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## Chewbaruuk (May 28, 2007)

I'm trying to write my story right now, which'll be more than enough, I believe, to make a trilogy. It's a sci-fi/fantasy that I'm writing in two totally different versions, one being sci-fi, the other fantasy. I can't decide which to go with, so I'm doing both.


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## Altron (May 28, 2007)

I have some ideas for a personal book and war. Though currently i am working on a screenplay titled either "The Final Shogun" or "The Last Bakufu" yeah if you didnt catch it, it will be about the last Tokugawa Shogun Tokugawa Yoshinobu from the boshin war to the establishment of the meji era. THough some characters and factions i have made up so i might need to change the title.


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## Mori` (May 28, 2007)

a lot of interesting things here, on character naming...I have problems there as well. I'm always tempted to base a characters name off of mythology but I think that can really limit you as well, people expect certain things from the character if they make the connection.

@ Yu, definately read ASOIAF

@ RK, have you read any of the riftwar saga, i have it all as ebooks if you (and anyone else) are interested. Good fantasy series and really well written in my opinion.


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## Yudachi (May 28, 2007)

Well, I'm writing a sci-fi/fantasy novel, in which technology and fantasy merges in one point of the novel. It involves a bit of politics (in fact, that's how it begins, with a political plot), romance and other subjects I can't remember by now.


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## shendaime (May 28, 2007)

SUMMARY: while the round table fought dragons their was another order. along with the round table there was an order of wizards called the compass of magic. when merlin left it went underground. centuries later a boy that the compass now calls the herald, must gather a group of peirs to introduce the order to the rest of humanity.


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## Lord Yu (May 28, 2007)

Summary: 5 Years ago Michelle Auravelius lost her family in a mysterious massacre. Now she is raising the only survivor of the massacre Eridaltia. Now Eridaltia has disappeared. Enter Cyrus Auravelius, the half-brother of Michelle's deceased husband. He leads her to the world of Alrustavera. What awaits her?

I know it sounds terrible. But that's the simplest way I can put the beginning. It's a 1000 times more complicated and that summary doesn't even begin to do it justice.


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## Prince Leon (May 28, 2007)

Character naming is one of the most difficult things I come across, particularly with last names. I'm still in the process of finalizing the names of my four main characters for my second novel (I haven't finished the first yet) which deals with my own twist on witches and is essentially _fantasy/action/romance/political/racial_-themed story. There is some sci-fi in there but not in the way you may think. The world itself isn't the common type of advanced you may think of normally but they're not behind either due to the fusion of magic and technology (airships instead of planes, etc.).

It's also my first novel to feature a female lead. Now I've written female characters before (duh) but never one that was a lead as far as my memory can recall. I'm putting all of my experience and ability I gathered over the years of writing shorts, poems, and other things into this novel (same with the first) and aim to create some of the most believable characters I've ever written. Their problems and faults most likely won't be connecting or familiar with most readers but the results of their behavior due to their past experiences can be emphasized with I'm sure.

Right now I'm stuck as to how to start my first chapter. For some reason I'm worried and don't want to start off on a lame or boring note. Usually I don't have this sort of problem but it's there now. However, I do know how I want the first chapter to end and some of the things I want to write to reach to that conclusion but for some reason I can't think of the appropriate opening lines to get things kicked off. :/


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## Lord Yu (May 28, 2007)

I come up with names using phonetics. I start with a a particular letter or sound and run from there. Try that. It's worked wonders for me.


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## Prince Leon (May 28, 2007)

I haven't really had a problem with names this time around for my second novel but I had one hell of a time with it in my first.

Right now though I just want to kick it off so I can get into the flow of the world and the characters that I already have living in my mind.


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## Lord Yu (May 28, 2007)

What's your most internally debated issue regarding your novel?  Mine is probably sex. At first I didn't think I would have any in it. But so far I've already thrown that notion out the window. As I already have full blown sex scenes in it.


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## Prince Leon (May 28, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> What's your most internally debated issue regarding your novel?  Mine is probably sex. At first I didn't think I would have any in it. But so far I've already thrown that notion out the window. As I already have full blown sex scenes in it.



Mine hover around the issue of sex and religion mostly. In my first novel, _Seventh Order_, which deals with angels I at first thought that I wouldn't have more than one scene dealing with such material but I've already had a scene with a female antagonist who was pleasuring herself. There are a few more things I have already written in my mind but haven't put them to paper as yet. This issue carries over to my second novel as well, where the four main protagonists are all female...

Religion-wise, it isn't much of me wondering if I should use it more than me wondering _how_ to tackle it without going into extreme psychobabble most people wouldn't understand. This is more of an issue in my first novel than in my second, the latter which uses some character names from mythology but even those are altered to my preference.


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## Lord Yu (May 28, 2007)

I deal a tad with religion myself. Going further with the sex issue though. I tend to use it to showcase emotion. I want to present love in the physical form not just the emotional. Also later on I start to dip into lust but that's kind of a different thing I'm sorting out so its hard to explain.


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## Prince Leon (May 28, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I deal a tad with religion myself. Going further with the sex issue though. I tend to use it to showcase emotion. I want to present love in the physical form not just the emotional. Also later on I start to dip into lust but that's kind of a different thing I'm sorting out so its hard to explain.



Yeah, I show love through emotions quite frequently. Threw little and big actions of certain characters. Idly playing around with someone's fingers or even stepping in to intercept an oncoming projectile, these sorts of things I use to get across certain types of emotion which in this case is love. Physically, I dive into such things as making out (may they be initially consensual or surprise kisses) and to other extremes. Sometimes it gets a bit difficult to choose one's words for certain heated scenes though lol.


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## Lord Yu (May 28, 2007)

I prefer more actions then words. I feel when the emotion is strong enough words are unnecessary.


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## Robotkiller (May 28, 2007)

Well, if the sex is for furthering character development then I'm wholly in support of it. But if it's just smut for the sake of smut then I don't really see a point.

Sex can be an important character development tool, it can show the tenderness of an individual, or establish a sense of absolute brutality within a character (common examples are rape and the like :/).

So yeah, if I feel it needs to be put it then I'll put it in. Just don't get all stay-at-home-mom erotica on us.


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## Lord Yu (May 28, 2007)

Ewww, I certainly won't go that direction. I don't put sex in unless it's absolutely serves a purpose.


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## Prince Leon (May 28, 2007)

Such scenes in my work always serve a purpose. If it doesn't need to be in there then it won't be.

When it comes to your characters though, how big does your cast usually get?


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## Lord Yu (May 28, 2007)

If you include every named character my cast is Xbox hueg. If you only include the really important people. It's kinda small.


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## Prince Leon (May 29, 2007)

Yeah the overall cast is big for my stories. My current ones range from 4 (main leads) to 50/60 (overall cast) characters easily.


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## Lord Yu (May 29, 2007)

I can think of only 10 recurring characters off the top of my head.


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## less (May 29, 2007)

What the hell, might as well fess up. I'm writing a practice novel. That is, a (pretty short, I hope) written to learn the ropes of novel writing rather than any hope of actual publishing. It's filed under "sci-fi", but I suppose it's more accurately described as cyberpunk. It currently has a short interlude and two chapters written (although it is planned all the way out), and about three or four regular readers, all of which I know from NF.

Summary: James is one of millions of construction workers partaking in the greatest feat of human engineering in history, and it sucks. He spends his endless, repetetive working days listening to ancient music on his walkman and lamenting the state of the world, and his days off drinking, chasing skirts and working on his novel. As if life didn't blow enough, he is now forced to share a room with a one-eared, anti-social geek kid due some selective union bueraucracy, and all in all, the path towards mankind's finest hour is soul-crushingly boring.

Number of cast and such: Four recurring characters so far if you count Tom the pet mouse, with more coming up in later chapters. Some are named with great care while others, such as James, are named on a whim.

Written in the third person protagonist mind-reading past tense perspective, with certain exceptions. 

As for sex and such, I don't really have a policy. If it works, it works.


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## Wilham (May 29, 2007)

I am an inspiring writer. I have a novel about 85% finished, a little over 550 pgs. I am one that have a million different ideas run through my mind that I can never finish just one, so I have 6 differet stories littered around my office. Althought I found an alternate route by turning one into a screen play and have found that screen plays are more my cup of tea.


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## Lord Yu (May 29, 2007)

Very interesting indeed. Good luck on that. I'm sure it'll be great. I've also tested my novel on a few NFers here and there. So far not getting enough critique.>_< But seriously I'm sure you'll do great less.

@ Wilham & Cheese: 550 pages @_@ whoa!


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## Noah (May 29, 2007)

Heh. I can't believe I didn't come here before.

I've got a half dozen detailed outlines/summaries of varying genres that I just can't seem to get myself to start writing. I mean, I've got 5-10 page character bios, timelines and sketches drawn out in addition to a 30-50 page outline of details, plot points and chapter titles for each story. 

I just can't get myself to start writing the actual novel. Part of it is because I'm not sure what medium to format it for. Another part can't decide which one to start with, and the third part of me is terrified because a couple of these things are going to be _huge_.

Then there's always that part that doesn't believe in my ability to successfully convey a story that I've been sitting on for the past 8 years.

Someone please tell me that the start is always the hardest part.


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## Lord Yu (May 29, 2007)

It is indeed the hardest part. I rewrote my story 4-5 times completely in my head before typing a sentence.


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## Wilham (May 29, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> @ Wilham & Cheese: 550 pages @_@ whoa!



Yeah I've been working on it for nearly six years. I've gone back and changed things here and there to make it flow better.


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## Lord Yu (May 29, 2007)

I've been working on mine for four but I only started writing it last year. Mine started out as a video game idea. I stacked the story so high I thought why not write a book?


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## Prince Leon (May 29, 2007)

I actually managed to kick-off my 'second' novel while in class earlier today. So far I feel satisfied about it but I'll probably want to get some critique on it later. :3


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## Robotkiller (May 29, 2007)

How many pages can you guys usually write up in a day? Just on average. I'd like to measure my time up to somebody elses because it feels like i'm not doing enough.

Also, where do you guys do your writing?

I like to go outside to my local park and sit in this one big tree where I can see for like a mile to each side of me. It gives me the absolute best  feeling of elation.


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## Lord Yu (May 29, 2007)

It really depends on how inspired I feel it varies greatly. I could finish a 10-16 page chapter in a day or a week. I write at my desk in my room. I rarely venture outdoors. I'm writing now actually.


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## Noah (May 29, 2007)

Even though I haven't done any actual writing, I never do any plotting or planning at my computer. Everything I've ever thought, scribbled or sketch was done at work, classes or spoken into a recorder while driving. Then I'll come home and type out what I've done before I go to sleep.

Maybe that's why I haven't been able to start the writing. I never get inspired in a place where I can really concentrate and actually write.


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## Lord Yu (May 29, 2007)

I keep most of my side stuff, character bios and whatnot in my head. I sometimes do character lists and location lists. But I let the character personality flow in the story itself.


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## Wilham (May 29, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> How many pages can you guys usually write up in a day? Just on average. I'd like to measure my time up to somebody elses because it feels like i'm not doing enough.
> 
> Also, where do you guys do your writing?
> 
> I like to go outside to my local park and sit in this one big tree where I can see for like a mile to each side of me. It gives me the absolute best  feeling of elation.



Depending on my situation, I can get a whole chapter like Lord Yu said in a day or a weeks time. But with trying to balance work and raising my daughter I find it is more the latter of the two that occurs. 

As for where I like to write, I do most of it in my study/office in the middle of the night. Thats usually when my ideas hit me.



Lord Yu said:


> I keep most of my side stuff, character bios and whatnot in my head. I sometimes do character lists and location lists. But I let the character personality flow in the story itself.



I usually do bullet lists for my characters, listing personality traits, history, and fun things like that.


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## Prince Leon (May 29, 2007)

On average I write somewhere between 6-14 pages a day if I'm on a roll.

And I mostly write at home. If not there then during class.


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## Prince Leon (May 29, 2007)

Oh yeah, locations are one thing I usually have to put to paper. I come up with some odd names at times that I would probably forget if I didn't make a memo of it somewhere. In the second (though I really should call it the third...) novel I'm trying to flow with I'm going to have a lot of such places mixed in with some err...remixed locations from mythology.

Oh yeah, about music. It's one of the biggest motivators for me when I write so I must always have some at hand. For me, I have like nearly 5000 songs to choose from.


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## Lord Yu (May 29, 2007)

I come up with alot of locations on the spot. But I have a list to draw from for important planned events.


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## less (May 30, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> How many pages can you guys usually write up in a day? Just on average. I'd like to measure my time up to somebody elses because it feels like i'm not doing enough.
> 
> Also, where do you guys do your writing?
> 
> I like to go outside to my local park and sit in this one big tree where I can see for like a mile to each side of me. It gives me the absolute best  feeling of elation.


I write rarely and slowly. Or rather, I write alll the goddamn time since that's my job and all, but when it comes to the actual novel-thing, it's not even once a week, as I'm usually too written out for the day. In an average writing session, I'm happy to get 3 or 4 single spaced pages done, which is about how long the chapters have been so far. 

I write at home, on my old laptop, listening to music and smoking a lot >.>

A beer usually helps if I can't get into James' character.


Lord Yu said:


> Very interesting indeed. Good luck on that. I'm sure it'll be great. I've also tested my novel on a few NFers here and there. So far not getting enough critique.>_< But seriously I'm sure you'll do great less.



Thanks. Good critique is worth gold, of course, but first and foremost, the readers just keep me motivated. It's easier to get writing if you know someone's reading.


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## Lord Yu (May 30, 2007)

My novel has decided to extend the first arc again. Now it's truly ended. There are four parts to my story. I don't know how many arcs its subdivided into though.


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## Prince Leon (May 30, 2007)

Hmm, when it comes to your main character (the absolute lead) what race do you usually go with? Does the thoughts or general acceptance of others (readers and potential readers) usually influence what color/race you make your lead?


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## Lord Yu (May 30, 2007)

I don't really think about it too much. I usually just go lol let's make a character such and such.


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## Robotkiller (May 30, 2007)

Prince Leon said:


> Hmm, when it comes to your main character (the absolute lead) what race do you usually go with? D*oes the thoughts or general acceptance of others (readers and potential readers) usually influence what color/race you make your lead?*



Not particularly. I have a pretty diverse cast of characters (racially). Because I was raised in a kind of enviroment where I was surronded by all types of people I really don't think too much about which character is which race.

Though truthfully, sometimes I designate races based on how I want a character to talk. I like to use some vernacular language to keep my characters in character.

Early on in my book I've got a group of trash-talking hispanics >:3


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## Solar Bankai (May 30, 2007)

All of these sound really good, guys.
I am writing a trilogy of books that are probably best called Sci-Fi - Fantasy amalgamation.  In that there is both technology and magic.  The series in general is called the Shadow Trinity.
Have to say, my favourite bit is thinking up names.  The nature of my story requires crazy names and so the Main Hero is called Archus Semet, and the Villain is called Zemenios.
And there are so many other characters it is unbelievable....i might post the first few chapters later, you can tell me what you think.  Its all a work in progress anyway, but i love it.


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## Lord Yu (May 30, 2007)

Oh shizzle! I've hit the wall. No ideas for my next arc!


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## Prince Leon (May 30, 2007)

^Fight on! Scribbling down random ideas works wonders. 



Robotkiller said:


> Early on in my book I've got a group of trash-talking hispanics >:3



That sounds interesting.


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## Batman (May 30, 2007)

Just spent the best day at the library and finally etched out all of the details of my beloved antagonist. Man I love the badguys. . . But now I really have to zero in on the potagonist, again so that he doesn't seem two dimensional in comparison.

Back to the tablets for me.

P.S. What's your favorite food to eat while writing, if you have one. Me I gotta eat cereal. I'm glad I have a fast metabolism, otherwise I'd be two tons of fun by now lol.


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## Lord Yu (May 30, 2007)

Sometimes I think I've made my antagonists too evil.


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## Robotkiller (May 30, 2007)

^
Is he a puppy kicker?


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## Lord Yu (May 30, 2007)

He'd probably kick it and eat it's mother.


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## Prince Leon (May 30, 2007)

The only antagonists I usually end up adoring/loving are my female ones. 

That doesn't mean I don't have badass guys around though. ^^


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## Lord Yu (May 31, 2007)

I love all my protagonists. They're all special in their own twisted ways.


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## Batman (May 31, 2007)

The endearingly flawed protagonist is always a goal of mine, rather than the annoyingly useless one. There's a distinction in there I have to find.


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## Lord Yu (May 31, 2007)

I'm rather unsure about the flaws of my protagonists. Both about flaws and their current development.


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## Robotkiller (May 31, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm rather unsure about the flaws of my protagonists. Both about flaws and their current development.



Whenever I have a problem like that I try to make a +/- list for the character. That way no know where the character stands and which of his traits need to be developed.


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## Batman (May 31, 2007)

You ever have problems with consistency of character, making sure their voice is their own and not yours?


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## Lord Yu (May 31, 2007)

I've decided to say fuck it again and keep writing. If I get over analytical it's gonna be impure and suck. I want my novel to be pure.


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## keisenju (May 31, 2007)

One of my teachers once said that one should better write about matters that one likes deeply or hates soundly, but that are, somehow, intimately connected with the author.

Other than that, there aren't really many recipes. 
And, since most of the readers of novels are women, having submissive, weak -willed, unintelligent female characters is off, (excluding comic relief), I guess.


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## Lord Yu (May 31, 2007)

I usually have women in prominent positions. But ultimately I think I'm pretty even handed in my torture treatment of women as I am with men.


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## Prince Leon (May 31, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I love all my protagonists. They're all special in their own twisted ways.



I meant to say antagonists, not protagonists. 

But yeah, I usually have a lot of women in my novels. They are pretty much in respected and prominent positions and such. One of my current novels have a large percentage of the cast being women as well.


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## Lord Yu (May 31, 2007)

My antagonists especially. They are just so lovably sadistic. Sometimes I think I go to far though.


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## Robotkiller (May 31, 2007)

The real prize pig, so to speak, of my story is my protagonist. He's such a  apathetic introverted bastard, I love writing him.

As for the females, I tend to paint my females in a symbolic light. Make them represent things that my protagonist lacks, if that makes any sense. It's very complex, I don't get much of it XD


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## Noah (May 31, 2007)

I'm with Robotkiller as far as females are concerned. Being male myself, it's a lot easier to relate to a male character, while a female character can fill in the gaps. Of course, this is all in design, as I haven't actually gotten myself to write yet.

Is it a bad thing if my side characters and antagonists are more fleshed out than the main protagonist? The secondary characters I've come up with are far more interesting than the main ones.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 1, 2007)

I prefer not to overplay any gender. Everyone has their negatives. Women are just as flawed as men so no need to go out of my way to put one gender over another.


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## Prince Leon (Jun 1, 2007)

I don't necessarily overplay a gender but I do usually have more of one over the other (which in my case, is more women than men in my novels but not by much).


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## Tyrael (Jun 2, 2007)

Can anyone give me advice on pacing? I tend to get through 3 or 4 paragraphs of description then it all pretty much ends up as dialogue. Apparently trying to find some sort of medium between sophisticated writing style and fluent storytelling is very important. Oh, and when it comes to gender well...characters tend to ber likeable for their flaws so really just make sure you exemplify their flaws then show development around it, so gender shouldn't matter. If anything I have said is a load of rubbish can someone tell me.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 2, 2007)

My pace is random at best. I could write 10 pages or a sentence.  I have a shitload of dialogue. I find it hard to get through more then a paragraph without it these days.


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## Prince Leon (Jun 2, 2007)

Hmm...I really don't think about pacing while I'm writing. Mind you it's there in the back of my mind but I only check it after having written a page or so or after the chapter is completed.


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## Batman (Jun 2, 2007)

I say get it out on paper how you feel. You can always edit later if necessary. Sometimes I get excited about what the characters are about to do that I leave my descriptions of getting there very short, and I have to go back and fix them later. Other times I fall in love with the descriptions that the characters never get there and I have to come back the next day. So there's no worries, just take your time so it feels natural to you.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 4, 2007)

I usually do a rough outline of a chapter before I write it (because I get _off-task_ very easily). So pacing is something that doesn't really effect me because I plan out events accordingly.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 4, 2007)

Ever feel you're too cruel to your characters? Sometimes I do.


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## Prince Leon (Jun 4, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Ever feel you're too cruel to your characters? Sometimes I do.



From time to time...


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## Lord Yu (Jun 5, 2007)

I have an idea of where I'll end my first book! But now I have to keep myself from rushing.


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## ZatsukuTheShiningDarkness (Jun 6, 2007)

Well I've had the ideas for a 6 part series of a fantasy/horror/scifi epic floating around in my mind for years, I've written the prologues to each book at least once but always scrapped them, mostly because although I have plot, and a universe, I only have the protagonist truly fleshed out, also I have the main character starting in our world (sort of), which is very cliche, but it's the only way I could write it!


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## Lord Yu (Jun 6, 2007)

LOL! I have one of the protagonists in my story start in our world as well.


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## Instant Karma (Jun 6, 2007)

Didn't know there were so many aspiring writers here. Nice to know i ain't alone. 

I've been working on my draft for 4 years. I keep having really creative periods and then i get writer's block from hell, and then back again.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 6, 2007)

I'm fortunate to have not been hit with real writer's block during my actual writing periods. At least not enough to stop me completely. Maybe because its I have multiple views. I can sometimes get blocked on one and then go to the other side for a bit and come back. Maybe not.


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## Batman (Jun 6, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm fortunate to have not been hit with real writer's block during my actual writing periods. At least not enough to stop me completely. Maybe because its I have multiple views. I can sometimes get blocked on one and then go to the other side for a bit and come back. Maybe not.



Me too. There are so many ideas that I have to get on paper that when I'm stuck in one place, I''ve got somewhere else to go.

I finally have the name on my main antagonist. Look me like 5 months. MAybe I'm crazy.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 7, 2007)

Good job! Right now I'm trying to name a series of new antagonists. It's hard because the names have to be symbolic. -_-


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Good job! Right now I'm trying to name a series of new antagonists. It's hard because the names have to be symbolic. -_-


I know right. And even when you know the literal sense of a name, often times its hard to come up with a symboilc name that works.  But keep at it. I hope you figure it out much quicker than I did.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 7, 2007)

The upside is I most likely won't use them. So I don't really have to come up with their names.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 8, 2007)

We should compile the writes fc with this.


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## Batman (Jun 8, 2007)

^  ^
Lol Probably.

Can anyone suggest a nice thesaurus. The one I have is garbage.


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## krickitat (Jun 8, 2007)

i published a childrens book for the local childrens hospital.
small circulation

I also illustrated it 

It was about geese and the smallest goose gets lost because he never learned to fly as well as the others. He falls into the fprest and meets some other animals who help him learn to fly even though they never have.

Something like they always wanted to fly so they gave that to him despite jealousy. and he catches up with his family......yup


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## Lord Yu (Jun 10, 2007)

Yesterday, I thought about redoing my book in third person. I've been entertaining the idea for quite sometime. I had a prototype piece in third-person. I can't help but think what my story would be like from that perspective.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 10, 2007)

I used to write exclusively in third person, then I tried a story in first person one time, and I loved it so much it was all I did for a year, when I tried to switch back, I couldn't do it. 

I am working on a set of books, three that are all connected together, I am having a friend draw art to go with them and I am currently working through all of the plot details, but if anyone would like to read one of them I'd be glad to let them.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 10, 2007)

I used to do that as well. But I think I could switch quite well. I know I'm going to do a few 3rd person chapters in the actual story anyway.


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## Prince Leon (Jun 10, 2007)

^That'll take some time to convert to third-person won't it? :sweat


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## Lord Yu (Jun 10, 2007)

Probably, but I imagine the results would be interesting.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 10, 2007)

Instant Karma said:


> Didn't know there were so many aspiring writers here. Nice to know i ain't alone.
> 
> I've been working on my draft for 4 years. I keep having really creative periods and then i get writer's block from hell, and then back again.



Don't sweat it. My book has been in writer's block limbo for the past 2 years.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 10, 2007)

Crap, I'm ahead of myself and now I have no idea how to end my current chapter. I can't end it now because I have too much ground to cover before I end it. block tiems no!


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## Jotun (Jun 10, 2007)

When I was like 8 I read this awesome Fantasy Thriller that inspired a fantasy world in my mind I would tinker with when I was bored. I can't remember the name of the book, but it was about a boy, a wet world, and a dark knight. Anyways, over the years I have added stuff in my head, played out scenes and even combined some stories into the same world. At this point I have lots of things planned out and have started typing out some general time lines along with character summaries. 

I know for sure that the story will be told in 3 different parts because they take in 3 different time periods. It starts out in a sort of "medieval" period of time. There is magic and dragons, but I am trying to take a different approach. The 2nd part of the story takes place a few hundred years after the first. I guess you could call this the "Dark Ages" of my story, alot of the world has been changed. Magic and the sort are practically extinct. The 3rd part of the story takes place in a future akin to the one in The Matrix.

Each one of the protagonists is connected to each other. The second protagonist has no name for almost half of his story. I still haven't decided completely on the third protagonist, but I know he will be somewhat of a reincarnation of the other 2.

My story deals with religion SORT OF, but mostly deals with self awareness. I toss around fate and destiny around in the first part of my story alot. In fact, in the very first chapter, there is a meeting with what I portray as "God" and the first protagonist. "God" is described as traveling musician. He has a very deep, but ambiguous conversation with the first protagonist as a child. He talks in questions and riddles. Anyways to sum it up, he asks the protagonist to make some choices that involve 2 birds. Everything in their conversation is played out later in the story according to the choices the protagonist made as a boy.

I'm really excited about writing this, even if I'm the only one who ends up reading it xD


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## Lord Yu (Jun 12, 2007)

I have come to a realization. I do my smoothest writing when my character is in an absolutely miserable situation. I can't write happy.  Writer's block for real this time.


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## MitsukiShiroi (Jun 12, 2007)

I'm writing a novel right now. xD Just 50 pages in, but I have lots more to write about.


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## Instant Karma (Jun 13, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> Don't sweat it. My book has been in writer's block limbo for the past 2 years.



Ahh ok.


I'm trying to just push through it. I'm 26 chapters in, so i don't really have a characterization problem. It's really just getting inspired i guess. It's funny though, my friend's friend does readings and made me choose a number and some other crap and she said that my artistic venture would prove fruitful and would result in material product and financial gain. So now i suppose it's a matter of, when in the hell will I finish in order for that to happen lol.



			
				Lord Yu said:
			
		

> I have come to a realization. I do my smoothest writing when my character is in an absolutely miserable situation. I can't write happy.  Writer's block for real this time.


Don't worry dude. You'll pull through. I suppose it's easier to emote and record misery. I think it's because we subconsciously put our own angst in through it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2007)

MitsukiShiroi said:


> I'm writing a novel right now. xD Just 50 pages in, but I have lots more to write about.



fifty, I wish I could continue real far past that like I used to. I am at 35 right now in the first story of my series, 37 for the second and the third is just like ten pages. I need to calm down and take it one at a time.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 13, 2007)

I got a revelation last night and my block is lifted. My block periods never last long.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 13, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I got a revelation last night and my block is lifted. My block periods never last long.



What did your Epiphany entail?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 13, 2007)

My big issue was I had come to a crossroads. I had the option of taking the cheap and easy way out but didn't want to take it. My epiphany finally gave me a method that was neither cheap nor cliche and fit to my style.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2007)

I am trying to figure out a way to get my story to where I need to be, the thing is I have all of the ending planned out, but I need to get the characters to that point without making them use methods that wouldn't be logical or making them ignore the obvious. 

Right now I am trying to build something onto the characters and flesh them out some, not to mention I want to set up the characters for the next few stories.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 13, 2007)

After 150 pages I finally feel my characters are starting to show development. Slow development is sloooooooow.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 13, 2007)

Guys, I need some friendly advice.

I'd like my character to have a love interest, but I feel like my main protagonist is too...above that.

I think he would realize the futility of starting a relationship in his current situation and, since he is a creature of reason, decide against doing anything in the romance department.

But on the other hand he's still human male...with needs. 

I'm just not sure which way I should go on this.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 13, 2007)

Hookers............


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## Noah (Jun 13, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Hookers




He's not lying! A good hooker will solve anything!

Seriously, a mutually-attracted-opposite-gender close friend could be a good solution. But...

...don't be cliche! Fit a nice tranny hooker in there! A morally supportive tranny hooker with a heart of gold!


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## Instant Karma (Jun 13, 2007)

Red_Squirrel said:


> He's not lying! A good hooker will solve anything!
> 
> Seriously, a mutually-attracted-opposite-gender close friend could be a good solution. But...
> 
> ...don't be cliche! Fit a nice tranny hooker in there! A morally supportive tranny hooker with a heart of gold!



 **


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> Guys, I need some friendly advice.
> 
> I'd like my character to have a love interest, but I feel like my main protagonist is too...above that.
> 
> ...



I am not all that sure but I can tell you that in a book I am reading the main character cruises sexaholic meetings for girls...I don't know if this helps, but just look where you least expect.


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## Prince Leon (Jun 13, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> Guys, I need some friendly advice.
> 
> I'd like my character to have a love interest, but I feel like my main protagonist is too...above that.
> 
> ...



Hmm. I'd say go with an endearing female character. Someone who can defy his reasoning but who isn't particularly "out there"/irrational.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2007)

I really want to start a forum for aspiring authors, or at least have a whole section here for non-fanfiction writing.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 13, 2007)

A section for non-fanfiction writing would be nice.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2007)

That's what I mean, I wonder who you talk to for that sort of thing?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 13, 2007)

An admin would be a start.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2007)

I guess I will do that then...


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## Robotkiller (Jun 14, 2007)

Thanks for the advice guys.

I think I'll walk the 'friends with benefits' road on this one unless another idea suddenly comes to me.


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## TJB (Jun 14, 2007)

So, I'm feeling creative and have a lot of free time lately so I thought I'd give this a shot. I've had several vague stories in my head for a few years now, but never had any motivation to put pen to paper.

Heh, I'm more of an artist than a writer, but I can't draw a damn thing without a decent storyline!


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 14, 2007)

TJB said:


> So, I'm feeling creative and have a lot of free time lately so I thought I'd give this a shot. I've had several vague stories in my head for a few years now, but never had any motivation to put pen to paper.
> 
> Heh, I'm more of an artist than a writer, but I can't draw a damn thing without a decent storyline!



Well welcome to the group, I am kind of like you, but I am the artist on the side. I think just about anyone with hard work and respect for the craft, has one decent story in them, even if its just a short one.


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## TJB (Jun 14, 2007)

Fame<Infamy said:


> Well welcome to the group



Thanks.



Fame<Infamy said:


> I think just about anyone with hard work and respect for the craft, has one decent story in them, even if its just a short one.



Well, I'm aiming for something long and epic but I'm just so goddamn lazy.


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## Alucard's Angel (Jun 14, 2007)

I am also writing a novel.. part one finished, and being edited. parts two and three wil lbe writtin in the next two novembers.. 

anyone ever heard of NaNoWriMo? (national novel writers month) look it up.. it is Awesome... I have only done one year.. but plan on writing every year after this...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 14, 2007)

Alucard's Angel said:


> I am also writing a novel.. part one finished, and being edited. parts two and three wil lbe writtin in the next two novembers..
> 
> anyone ever heard of NaNoWriMo? (national novel writers month) look it up.. it is Awesome... I have only done one year.. but plan on writing every year after this...



I have to write year round, I typically get less done in November due to finals...but I wanted to tell everyone 


*I made a suggestion thread to get a writing section for us! Go there and make it know. 


*


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## Lord Yu (Jun 14, 2007)

Wrong link lol.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 14, 2007)

Well look here then...

I made a suggestion thread to get a writing section for us! Go there and make it know.


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## Batman (Jun 15, 2007)

I just got my protagonist into a situation and I don't know how he's going to get out of it. I know the A, and I know the Z, but I can't seem to figure out the rest of the alphabet. I hate when I do that becuase the solution is hardly going to be as interesting as the problem.


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## analyticalkeys (Jun 15, 2007)

Heh, I have a huge problem.. I write about 120 pages, then I drift off and write another 120 pages to something else, and end up never finishing anything.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 15, 2007)

Batman said:


> I just got my protagonist into a situation and I don't know how he's going to get out of it. I know the A, and I know the Z, but I can't seem to figure out the rest of the alphabet. I hate when I do that becuase the solution is hardly going to be as interesting as the problem.



In situations like these I try to work backwards, it tends to lead to more realistic solutions in my opinion.

Solution -->step 3 ---> step 2 ---> step 1 ---> Problem.

I try to make that little problem solving sequence whenever I cant figure out the resolution to a particular situation. Though, I've heard that doesn't bode well with everyone.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 15, 2007)

Batman said:


> I just got my protagonist into a situation and I don't know how he's going to get out of it. I know the A, and I know the Z, but I can't seem to figure out the rest of the alphabet. I hate when I do that becuase the solution is hardly going to be as interesting as the problem.



Work backwards like Robot Killers said, I generally carry around this huge notebook and when I get an idea I jot it down. Sometimes the idea is really primitive like just a costume change. For instance when I was at the mall with a friend once there was the green leather trench coat in the window, I wrote so that one of my characters on a whim gets a coat like it that becomes part of her personality.

But really, if you just make them finding the solution fun and interesting, then the solution being simple won't matter as much.




analyticalkeys said:


> Heh, I have a huge problem.. I write about 120 pages, then I drift off and write another 120 pages to something else, and end up never finishing anything.



I do the same thing, expcept I tend to go back and finish things out of order. I am actually working right now on trying to finish one story before the others. 

There are these books by the Writers Digest people, and one of my favorites is called Beginnings Middles and Ends, it might help you plan and set up your end from the beginning.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2007)

Batman said:


> I just got my protagonist into a situation and I don't know how he's going to get out of it. I know the A, and I know the Z, but I can't seem to figure out the rest of the alphabet. I hate when I do that becuase the solution is hardly going to be as interesting as the problem.



That's always my predicament. Fuck planning just improvise. It's what I usually do. If you don't like where it took you go back and edit. You'll likely have your proper answer  by then if you don't like what you improvised.


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## Technolized Spirit (Jun 15, 2007)

I've got a few problem when it comes to writing
usually i get really into a story i'm writing then a new idea pops into my head it wont leave me alone till i right it down then i forget about that first story and move on to the new story and it happens over and over.....i believe i have over 13 stories unfinished because i can never keep my mind on just one


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 15, 2007)

Improvisions don't work well for everyone, plus sometimes you realize that there's no motivation behind what's going on with your characters and you have to go back and change it anyway.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2007)

As far as motivation goes if you really know your characters your improv will go in accordance with your characters personalities.


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## analyticalkeys (Jun 15, 2007)

Honestly, I write in two different ways. One story I'll plan out to the dot and another I'll just improvise. Personally, I like the improvising much better, but I think it's a good idea just to plan things out sometimes if only for the fun of doing it. I tend to not finish anything I plan out, because it's more fun to improvise all the way.


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## The Thieving Queen (Jun 15, 2007)

I still haven't started my novel yet and I'm already half way into the first summer month. All the exams and the on going journalism pretty much killed my inspiration and creativity.  
I'm hugely into writing and film, which actually got me my two journo jobs, but with all that formal text I had to do I could hardly fit in some creativity. Hopefully I'll get it all back together as I'll probably start writing a few fanfics, should get the juices flowing.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2007)

analyticalkeys said:


> Honestly, I write in two different ways. One story I'll plan out to the dot and another I'll just improvise. Personally, I like the improvising much better, but I think it's a good idea just to plan things out sometimes if only for the fun of doing it. I tend to not finish anything I plan out, because it's more fun to improvise all the way.



I start with a massive detailed plan. Then I start writing and throw most of the plans completely out. My style is almost pure improvisation. I write from my heart.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 15, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I start with a massive detailed plan. Then I start writing and throw most of the plans completely out. My style is almost pure improvisation. I write from my heart.



I do pretty much the same thing 

But I like to outline what I want accomplished in a chapter, I try to stick with that..to a certain degree. But if something comes to mind or something doesn't fit I won't hesitate to add/throw out an idea.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2007)

I think one issue I have is I hardly if ever go back and read my work. So there's alot of errors and sometimes blatant inconsistencies. I get embarrassed when I read my work sometimes. I usually hate it and never know how to fix it.


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## Tyrael (Jun 15, 2007)

Would I be right in guessing I'm not the only one who has an excessively output in proportion to the amount of ideas and stuff I want to write? I blame this on being a teenager, therefore effectively having a horribly bad attention span.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 15, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I think one issue I have is I hardly if ever go back and read my work. So there's alot of errors and sometimes blatant inconsistencies. I get embarrassed when I read my work sometimes. I usually hate it and never know how to fix it.



It helps to have other writers and friends go over it who you know you can trust to tell you something is wrong. I had someone do that for me today and I am rethinking a lot of the things I have planned for later. Not rethinking them as much as I am trying to see how they fit into the scheme of things and how important they are.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Would I be right in guessing I'm not the only one who has an excessively output in proportion to the amount of ideas and stuff I want to write? I blame this on being a teenager, therefore effectively having a horribly bad attention span.



No, that's perfectly natural for a writer.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 15, 2007)

Technolized Spirit said:


> I've got a few problem when it comes to writing
> usually i get really into a story i'm writing then a new idea pops into my head it wont leave me alone till i right it down then i forget about that first story and move on to the new story and it happens over and over.....i believe i have over 13 stories unfinished because i can never keep my mind on just one



I meant to answer this earlier, but the thing is, I don't know what to do about that, I do something like that, only I write all my stories at once, currently there are three, but one of them is almost done. 

I was wondering what you guys thought about issues like Pedophillia in stories...also what you thought about parent child relationships...these two are totally unrelated, but do you think a parent would know their kid 15 years down the road or so if the kid had dyed their hair, changed their eye color, had lighter skin, and piercings and the like.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2007)

Of course they would. Parents who were really close to their children at least.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 15, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Of course they would. Parents who were really close to their children at least.



Well what if in your mind like, okay say your daughter comes back from 13 years down the road (Trunks style) and she's come to help with something. She's done all this stuff to herself, would you know her? Keep in mind, time travel isn't known to you though.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2007)

Not immediately I would imagine. Anyway, I'm having something similar in my story.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 15, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Not immediately I would imagine. Anyway, I'm having something similar in my story.



They won't find out much later, but they often describe a strange feeling around her. The girl goes from being 6 to being 19, so I think that is a fair jump. And I think the dyed hair and stuff would help change alot. Her natural hair would be red, the hair she will have in the future is black.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 15, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I think one issue I have is I hardly if ever go back and read my work. So there's alot of errors and sometimes blatant inconsistencies. I get embarrassed when I read my work sometimes. I usually hate it and never know how to fix it.


Now see, i'm exactly the opposite.

My OCD forces me to go back and re-read every sentence to check for errors and inconsistencies.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2007)

RK will you read my story?  I have yet to have a decent critique.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 15, 2007)

I need some more people to read mine!


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2007)

I could say I'd look at it but the chances of me actually doing so is 60/40. My chances of finishing the excerpt even less so. I'm a lazy selfish bastard.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 15, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> RK will you read my story?  I have yet to have a decent critique.



I'd be happy to, mang. I'm pretty nit-picky though, so it might take me a while to read through everything.


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## analyticalkeys (Jun 15, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I start with a massive detailed plan. Then I start writing and throw most of the plans completely out. My style is almost pure improvisation. I write from my heart.



Sounds about correct to me.


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## Batman (Jun 15, 2007)

Fame<Infamy said:


> I meant to answer this earlier, but the thing is, I don't know what to do about that, I do something like that, only I write all my stories at once, currently there are three, but one of them is almost done.
> 
> I was wondering what you guys thought about issues like Pedophillia in stories...also what you thought about parent child relationships...these two are totally unrelated, but do you think a parent would know their kid 15 years down the road or so if the kid had dyed their hair, changed their eye color, had lighter skin, and piercings and the like.



I don't know if the mother will or not. It really all depends on the personality and the circumstances. Many people won't want to belive that they missed the better part of their childs development, so she may refuse to accept it, and in turn fail to see it, but some people might be able to tell if wheter they want themselves to or not.

@Lord Yu. I pretty much had to go back to the improvisation tactic. It's like an old standard for me, and the intricacies of outline are secondary. I think I was getting caught up in it rather than in what my characters would do in this situation.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 15, 2007)

Batman said:


> I don't know if the mother will or not. It really all depends on the personality and the circumstances. Many people won't want to belive that they missed the better part of their childs development, so she may refuse to accept it, and in turn fail to see it, but some people might be able to tell if wheter they want themselves to or not.



It looks like I might have to do something to make it harder for them to tell, there's already been a huge change in personality for the character. So that might be enough to cover it.


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## The Thieving Queen (Jun 15, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> No, that's perfectly natural for a writer.


Oh Thank God, I thought I was the only one who had that problem, I always blamed it on procrastination.


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## Nan Desu Ka (Jun 16, 2007)

do you guys ever question yourselves as writers? I mean like I'm writing (or attempting to do so) and sometimes I just question what I've put down as to whether or not it's good enough and I question myself as to whether or not I'm smart enough to even write a book. Sometimes I'll read something and just think to myself, there's no way I can be this good...I've always been into reading books and writing whether it comes to poetry, creative writing, short stories, etc and ideas come to me easily, they always have, but I feel like I just cant put it down on paper the right way...So basically, I'm just wondering, is it just me? Or do you guys ever question yourselves?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 16, 2007)

Nan Desu Ka said:


> do you guys ever question yourselves as writers? I mean like I'm writing (or attempting to do so) and sometimes I just question what I've put down as to whether or not it's good enough and I question myself as to whether or not I'm smart enough to even write a book. Sometimes I'll read something and just think to myself, there's no way I can be this good...I've always been into reading books and writing whether it comes to poetry, creative writing, short stories, etc and ideas come to me easily, they always have, but I feel like I just cant put it down on paper the right way...So basically, I'm just wondering, is it just me? Or do you guys ever question yourselves?



I think any good writer will question themselves, but you also have to know when to leave what you have down and know its the best you can do right then. Sometimes what makes you better is the fact you are asking the questions.


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## analyticalkeys (Jun 16, 2007)

No, once I start questioning myself, I stop writing lol. It's normal to question yourself, but don't make it a habit.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 16, 2007)

analyticalkeys said:


> No, once I start questioning myself, I stop writing lol. It's normal to question yourself, but don't make it a habit.



You should question yourself though. Otherwise you'll never improve, or change your writing style for the better.

It's not a good idea to just trudge on through multiple mistakes without a second glance back.


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## The Thieving Queen (Jun 16, 2007)

I'm just curious, what would be the average writing session for you guys, like how long could you sit down and just write continuously for?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 16, 2007)

I question myself continuously. Self loathing is a big part of my novel writing experience.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 16, 2007)

The Thieving Queen said:


> I'm just curious, what would be the average writing session for you guys, like how long could you sit down and just write continuously for?



It's so erratic for me I don't even both keeping track.



Lord Yu said:


> I question myself continuously. Self loathing is a big part of my novel writing experience.



...Thats.....the spirit? 

btw, it's going to take me a bit to read through and critique everything to your story, but i'm trying to go through and check it 5 pages at a time.

I'm doing my best


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## The Pink Ninja (Jun 16, 2007)

Why hello there


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## Robotkiller (Jun 16, 2007)

Go awai, henry. This thread is for cool catz only


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 16, 2007)

The Thieving Queen said:


> I'm just curious, what would be the average writing session for you guys, like how long could you sit down and just write continuously for?



I usually do it for a matter of hours, I have written ten, twenty, thirty pages before and sat sometimes as long as six hours at my desk. Maybe more. Other times I just hope down for thirty minutes and do some quick things.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jun 16, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> Go awai, henry. This thread is for cool catz only



I'm crying now 

I really will.


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## analyticalkeys (Jun 16, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> You should question yourself though. Otherwise you'll never improve, or change your writing style for the better.
> 
> It's not a good idea to just trudge on through multiple mistakes without a second glance back.



Maybe you're right, but whenever I look back, I tend to not like what I wrote before.


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## Batman (Jun 16, 2007)

analyticalkeys said:


> Maybe you're right, but whenever I look back, I tend to not like what I wrote before.



That happens to alot of writers. It sounds good while you're laying it down, but when your in your in editing mode you wonder what you were smoking to think that those sentences were functional. But contrary to that there are those times where you go back and are like "wow that's pretty good." That's why I keep writing. I'm looking inside myself so I can share those "wow" moments.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 16, 2007)

I feel I'm up for alot of wtf moments in editing. I've changed my tune alot with out going back and editing.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jun 16, 2007)

I never edit, I suck


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## Lord Yu (Jun 16, 2007)

I don't edit either. Except when a line appears in my memory that I really hate.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 16, 2007)

I don't understand how you guys can not edit :/

When I finish with a page I look over it to make sure it doesn't sound retarded D:


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## Lord Yu (Jun 16, 2007)

My brain moves too fast for that.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 16, 2007)

Roger that, chief 

Edit: Since authors are sometimes private with their work I'll go ahead and PM this to you <_<


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## Lord Yu (Jun 16, 2007)

Thanks for the critique. It helps me better face my horrible errors. God I really should read more. It also help me relive exactly how much I hate the opening of my story.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 16, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Thanks for the critique. It helps me better face my horrible errors. God I really should read more. It also help me relive exactly how much I hate the opening of my story.



No problem, mang. Expect the next installment in a day or two 

I think I'll work on the fanfiction contest for this site tomorrow. I want that shiny fucking username.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 16, 2007)

I need to work on character descriptions.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2007)

I need to really work on the pace of things in my story, but I am getting much better with certain things with my story.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 17, 2007)

I need to learn how to develop side characters.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 17, 2007)

I need to work on my action sequences. They all sound so....robotic.

I've tried multiple techniques to try and work around my weakness....but I haven't found anything that works.

Any tips?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I need to learn how to develop side characters.



You can develop them through context clues. It might be a harder thing to do but the pay off can be nice sometimes. You can develop them through flash backs too, or you could just use exposition where you tell about them in a paragraph or two. If written right a short thing can tell a lot. 



Robotkiller said:


> I need to work on my action sequences. They all sound so....robotic.
> 
> I've tried multiple techniques to try and work around my weakness....but I haven't found anything that works.
> 
> Any tips?



I don't know if I really write action sequences well. But since I am doing gun fights I think that its a little bit easier for me.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 17, 2007)

I don't really know if my action sequences are good or not either.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2007)

Someone please read this and see if it seems authentic, I posted it in the Sex in stories thread too...


*Spoiler*: __ 




    There few things as distracting as a woman who is unknowingly sexy. This kind of attractiveness is the kind of thing that comes when the woman in question is doing the most rudimentary of tasks. I was at the table in the kitchen pouring over some books I had gathered over the years on demons, or at least I should have been. Persephanie was sitting up at the bar on a stool. Her feet dangling down in the open air and she had a book out on the same subject. 
            Her pale bare legs seemed to run up into the shirt she wore, one I had gotten from a concert not too long ago. It was too small for me, but much too large for her and fell at about mid thigh. She had on a little pair of red shorts under the shirt. The sleeves of the shirt itself were rolled up. 
            She’d been eating a Popsicle for quiet some time and reading the book. Her hair twisted up in a clip haphazardly. Her glasses placed over her eyes as she skimmed the pages of the book and leaned her head off her hand to change the page. 
            She had calmed herself a lot since earlier in the car, she had to really because it seemed like anytime that the kids were around they could just sense that their mother wasn’t herself. So she had acted like things were okay, even taken the girls out for ice cream, and now that they were in bed she was holding up the façade.
            It had been over an hour since she had replied to me with anything that wasn’t a nod or short one syllable noise. I reached over and slapped my hand down on her leg, “Babe, are you alright?” 
            “Hm.” 
            “Okay, that’s neither and answer nor a word…” I quipped.
            “Sorry, its just that there is so much information I can’t afford to miss anything,” she said.
            My eyes moved up to meet hers, “I can’t concentrate like this,” I said, “What do you say we take a break…go cuddle up on the couch and watch some television…” I rose from the table slowly. 
            “Something just tells me if we don’t stay focused…” she started and trailed off and glanced over into the living room. 
            I approached her and my fingers down through her hair while bringing my face down to hover over her shoulder. I could smell her body-wash as I neared her, the intoxicating scent like a fresh rain. I kissed at the spot where her neck and her shoulder met and then moved to take a bite out of the Popsicle, “Thanks.” 
            “You jerk!” she yelled playfully and started hitting me with her free hand. I locked my hands around her wrists lightly and we tussled back and forth. Even with out me using my full strength I knew she couldn’t break out easily, but I wanted to be careful not to hurt her, not to pull back to hard. 
            On the last tug I lifted her off the stool with ease and placed her with her back down as gently as I could onto the table. Her hair was spread out around her like flames from the sun, or a renaissance halo. I leaned down to kiss her and uttered, “My little Tangerine…”
            “Not fair, you’re stronger than me, and like twice my size!” she quipped.
            Just before I touched her lips I froze with a mock expression of anger on my face, “What’s that supposed to mean? Are you calling me fat?” I took my left hand and grabbed both her wrists holding them together, and then with my other hand I tickled her furiously. She kicked and squirmed and in a last ditch effort, pressed the Popsicle into my cheek so that the tip broke off. 
            I moved my hands down to her waist and stood over her looking down puzzled and before I could even think of anything else, my lips were pressed to hers, my hand on the side of her cheek and her hand under my chin. I stopped, my face floating above hers and she said in a soft, rich tone, “Why don’t we do this more often?”
            Her question basically answered itself before either of us could speak. A sound like thunder rolling reverberated from and adjacent room, the sound of feet moving down the stairs followed by a little voice, “What are you guys doing?” 
            I was back up on my feet before she had entered the room and pulling Persephanie off the table, “Oh hey there Penny-baby, mommy was clumsy and fell on the table…”
            When they’re six its so much easier to lie.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 17, 2007)

I read it. Didn't particularly grab me. But I'm no expert on that stuff. I don't what mood you were trying to grab.


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## Anaiya (Jun 17, 2007)

Mind if I join?  

Also, if you don't mind, I'd like to post some comments later on your snippit, there, Fame<Infamy.  

Most of my stuff is short stories and poems, but I do have some novels in the works and I definitely have writing experience.  Never had any novels published yet; mostly because I lack the patience to finish them.   

Oh, and I'm mostly friendly.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2007)

Anaiya said:


> Mind if I join?
> 
> Also, if you don't mind, I'd like to post some comments later on your snippit, there, Fame<Infamy.
> 
> ...



Go ahead and post it, I might not get to read it until much later. I have a pretty busy day. or I should.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jun 17, 2007)

Feel free too give stuff too me for editing Yu.

Same for you RK.

You other guys... maybe.

I have a fair degree of experience at such stuff ¬___¬



Robotkiller said:


> I don't understand how you guys can not edit :/
> 
> When I finish with a page I look over it to make sure it doesn't sound retarded D:



That's why I don't want too read it: Because it'll sound retarded.


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## Prince Leon (Jun 17, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> My brain moves too fast for that.



Same here. My english lecturers have told me time and again that my mind/brain moves faster than my hands/fingers can type/write. It's something that I can't tame so I almost always have to rely on someone else to point out things I need to edit/correct.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 17, 2007)

I suppose my father has instilled in me a mindset that If I'm going to put any amount of strenuous effort an activity, I better do it 100% right.

I also get my OCD from his side of the family so I suppose my vigilant editing his his genetic doing


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## Anaiya (Jun 17, 2007)

Fame<Infamy said:


> Someone please read this and see if it seems authentic, I posted it in the Sex in stories thread too...
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Before you read this, keep in mind that one of my own weaknesses is taking critique well.  I tend to take it to heart and I hope you don?t.  Not that I think I was mean or anything, but sometimes it?s just hard to hear anything about your own work.  I know I can dish it out but I have a hard time taking it.  I?ve taken a lot over the years and I?m getting better at it!   

Anyway, my critique is a bit long and probably a little nitpicky, but absolutely no meanness intended, so if you feel that way, please understand that?s not how it was intended.  It isn?t complete, either, I just wanted to give you enough to push you into looking at it a bit differently.   


*Spoiler*: _Critique_ 



This is an excellent start, in my opinion.  What you have here is a fantastic physical description of the scene and what goes on, but it lacks enough depth and feeling.  For example, your sentence, ?She had on a little pair of red shorts under the shirt? is flat and expresses no emotion.  As it is, it seems out of place in a scene that should make you feel all tingly or even turn you on a bit.  How do we know she has little red shorts on if the shirt goes down to mid thigh and what does it matter if they aren?t tantalizing?  You might change it to something about her shorts peeking at the edge of the shirt when she sat down or leaned forward or something.  The imagery of the shirt sliding up a bit and the shorts just peeking out below it is more tantalizing than simply mentioning what she is wearing.  Also, mentioning who played the concert or a color when describing the shirt could add to the imagery of the scene.

This is probably a bit more nitpicky on my part, but that is how I am with my own writing and you can take it for what it?s worth to you, but ?run up into? when describing the relationship between her legs and that shirt just doesn?t feel right to me.  I like what you are going for, just not the words you chose to describe it; maybe some variation of extend or flow would work better.  Legs running up into the shirt feels too clumsy or hurried to me for the setting you portray.

One thing that doesn?t feel authentic to me is that popsicle.  Daggum that thing never melts!  You start with that she?s been eating it for ?quite some time? which gives the scene a feeling of length and then she is still fighting with it throughout the horseplay, which takes at least a few minutes. If you want it to last that long, make it a lollipop or a Sugar Daddy or something that is supposed to last a while.  Otherwise, use the fact that popsicles melt to add to the imagery.  Melting things can be very tantalizing in this sort of scene.  Also, instead of it breaking off the tip when she smashes it into the guy?s cheek, it should probably squish or something like that instead.  After all, she had been eating it slowly and he had already taken a bite, as well.  Use this as an opportunity to introduce something wet and sticky to the scene.  Melting, wet, and sticky all add to the erotic feelings of the scene. 

Just one more nitpick - in this sentence, ? Her hair was spread out around her like flames from the sun, or a renaissance halo? don?t give your readers the choice.  Pick one precise image and stick with it.  You can use the other one later in a similar scene if you want. 

Oh, wait, one more.  At the end when the little one is first heard, you say the sound comes from an adjoining room but then the child comes down the steps.  This is spatially confusing since ?adjoining? generally indicates it joins to one side.  You might want to change it to something that indicates the sound came from above them.  Sounds from above add a dash of mystery, too, so that might help add to the overall feeling.

Ok, I think that?s enough that you see where I am coming from.  You?ve set before us a great scene.  Now color it.  Give us imagery and feeling and make your scene really come alive.


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## keisenju (Jun 17, 2007)

Batman said:


> That happens to alot of writers. It sounds good while you're laying it down, but when your in your in editing mode you wonder what you were smoking to think that those sentences were functional. But contrary to that there are those times where you go back and are like "wow that's pretty good." That's why I keep writing. I'm looking inside myself so I can share those "wow" moments.



These are exactly my feelings. I wouldn't have said it better, Batman.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2007)

Anaiya said:


> Before you read this, keep in mind that one of my own weaknesses is taking critique well.  I tend to take it to heart and I hope you don?t.  Not that I think I was mean or anything, but sometimes it?s just hard to hear anything about your own work.  I know I can dish it out but I have a hard time taking it.  I?ve taken a lot over the years and I?m getting better at it!
> 
> Anyway, my critique is a bit long and probably a little nitpicky, but absolutely no meanness intended, so if you feel that way, please understand that?s not how it was intended.  It isn?t complete, either, I just wanted to give you enough to push you into looking at it a bit differently.
> 
> ...



Ha! Finally someone agrees with me! I have been saying that this part of the story lacks the description of the other parts. I am far past it by now but I shall go back and work on this, make it a little more like what I pictured in my head. At times I can be really good with description, other times...not so much.


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## Anaiya (Jun 17, 2007)

Fame<Infamy said:


> At times I can be really good with description, other times...not so much.



Me too.  I find that I tend to just ditch a story I can't seem to get to feel the way I intend and then one day it comes back to me and I finish it.  If I try too hard at first, it just won't come to me.  That's one reason I haven't finished any of my novels - too much ditching and coming back.  LOL


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2007)

Anaiya said:


> Me too.  I find that I tend to just ditch a story I can't seem to get to feel the way I intend and then one day it comes back to me and I finish it.  If I try too hard at first, it just won't come to me.  That's one reason I haven't finished any of my novels - too much ditching and coming back.  LOL



I am working on an edited version of that story, I will post it when done.

*Edit, here's the story correction! 

*
*Spoiler*: __ 



Few things could distract me the way my wife could. Her unknowingly sexy mannerisms like the way lay with her body half dangling off the couch at times, or the way she brushed her hair in a mirror held some inbred level of attractiveness for me.
            Attractiveness that I was sure she had no idea of. It was the kind of thing that had to sneak up. It couldn?t be emulated. I should have been skimming the books looking for a clue. Instead I kept letting a curious eye shoot over to Persephanie, perched atop the stool with her elbows placed on the bar. Her pale skin caught the light from the large florescent kitchen fixture and seemed to glimmer. 
            When I tried to glance down at the book, I would drift to thinking about her like a little school boy in class. Then I?d be wondering if she was looking at me, instinctively I would look back up. 
            Her bare legs dangled out of the bottom of the shirt, swaying from side to side in the air. Years ago we?d gone to a _Taking Back Sunday_ concert. It was our first concert together. Most of the day it rained and at the end of the night she slipped in the mud getting her shirt drenched. 
            I?d bought this shirt for her just to get her out of the muddy clothes. It had been the last size they had and even back then it was hard to tell she had shorts on under the shirt as it stopped a little past the thigh.
            With a soft sigh she drew herself up onto the bar more, heaving a slow breath and letting her chest come to rest on the bar. The movement had drawn her shirt up slightly; the very bottom of her small red shorts peeked out now. 
            She rose up off her hands and took a few licks at the end of the Popsicle she had been eating. The inner part of her lips were turning slightly purple and were wet with the grape flavoring. She?d twisted her auburn colored hair up in a clip haphazardly. The red rimmed glasses she wore had just slid down, hanging off at the tip of her nose. 
            Since earlier she had calmed herself, mostly because it seemed like anytime that the kids were around they could just tell something was wrong. Over time my wife became good at fooling the girls. She?d done it tonight. Took them out for ice cream and hung out with them a bit. Right now I couldn?t tell if this was still the fa?ade or if she?d really come done.
            It had been over an hour since she had replied to me with anything that wasn?t a nod or short one syllable noise. I reached over pinching the skin on her leg lightly and wiggling it between my skin, she didn?t move, ?Babe, are you alright?? 
            ?Hm?? 
            ?Okay, that?s neither and answer nor a word?? I joked.
            ?Sorry, its just that there is so much information I can?t afford to miss anything,? she pushed her glasses back up onto her face. Her emerald eyes were half closed and the fade of the eye shadow around them was still apparent.
            My eyes moved up to meet hers, ?I can?t concentrate like this,? I said, ?What do you say we take a break?go cuddle up on the couch and watch some television?or?? I rose from the table and brought my body closer to hers. 
            ?Something just tells me if we don?t stay focused?? she pushed her hand into my chest lightly and a her words turned into a smile. 
            I traced my fingers down through her hair, my thumb dragged the side of her cheek and kissed her cheek lightly. The smell of lavender and cherry blossom body wash was intoxicating to the senses. 
            My face was so close to hers I could feel the warmth as he cheeks grew hot. The smile on her face was my permission slip. I brought my face down between her neck and shoulder and kissed, then I moved to take a bite out of the Popsicle, but it was mostly melted now and it smashed down some in my mouth it melted almost instantly ?Thanks.?
            ?You jerk!? her voice raised in mock anger. When she swung at me with her free hand, I locked my hands around her wrists lightly and we tussled back and forth. She was laughing pushing back as hard as she could. I of course let her gain some headway before turning the tables on her.
            I rolled her off the stool and pinned her back down on the table. A large slushy portion of the popsicle slid off and splattered on her shirt. Her hair was spread out around her like a renaissance halo. I leaned down to kiss her and uttered, ?My little Tangerine??
            ?You know, I let you win,? her voice was low now.
            Just before I touched her lips I froze with a mock expression of anger on my face, ?Really?? I smiled down at her, ?Lets see how you deal with this.? I took my left hand and grabbed both her wrists holding them together. My other hand went to the side of her stomach tickling lightly at her skin. She kicked and squirmed and in a last ditch effort to end my assault she slung the dripping melted popsicle at me.
            The cool treat slid off the stick completely missed me splashing down onto the table off to the side of her. The wet stick clattered to the table, ?Hm, I?ll let you win again, but just one more time,? she said as she pulled me in close.
            Our lips met, the sticky would be grape substance was the first thing I tasted. My fingers moved down the side of her neck, then to the side of her body all the way to her waist. All of the shit in the books was flushed out of my head now. Our lips pressed together. Her hand pressed to the side of my face now. The kiss came to a lingering halt  and my face floating was above hers and she said in a soft, rich tone, ?Why don?t we do this more often??
            Her question basically answered itself before either of us could speak. A sound like thunder rolling reverberated from somewhere behind and above us, the sound of feet moving down the stairs followed by a little voice, ?What are you guys doing?? 
            I was back up on my feet before she had entered the room and pulling Persephanie off the table, ?Oh hey there Penny-baby, mommy was clumsy and fell on the table??
            Penny laughed.
            When they?re six its so much easier to lie.


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## Suigetsu (Jun 18, 2007)

Prince Leon said:


> Same here. My english lecturers have told me time and again that my mind/brain moves faster than my hands/fingers can type/write. It's something that I can't tame so I almost always have to rely on someone else to point out things I need to edit/correct.



that happens to me, however my good old friend the voice recorder its here to help me out  so I just speak and everything gets recorded.


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## Beau Logan (Jun 18, 2007)

My idea is pretty dorky. 

It's about a girl who awakens a werewolf-girl and becomes the ceremonial pack leader and forms a pack over the course over the book. Basically werewolves "eat" spirits and I get all complex with breeding and stuff. Oh, and one werewolf is a cop. And it hasn't gone emo! 

I can't believe I already got four chapters in... >_<


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2007)

Whatever floats your boat.


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## Beau Logan (Jun 18, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Whatever floats your boat.


...That'd make a good title for something.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 18, 2007)

...my ex wanted to write a story about vampires and werewolves XD

Her main character's name was wolfy.

Can anybody guess what wolfy was, just off of the top of their head?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2007)

A human?Just to be stupid


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## Beau Logan (Jun 18, 2007)

A....lawyer?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 18, 2007)

A wolf????


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## Robotkiller (Jun 18, 2007)

The unoriginal bitch That would be like me making the main character of a book about vampires, vampy.

On a more related note, has anyone had any really unoriginal ideas that they look back on and just laugh at the pure uncreativeness of it all?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2007)

I try to forget those ideas and as of this moment I'm successful.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 18, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> The unoriginal bitch That would be like me making the main character of a book about vampires, vampy.
> 
> On a more related note, has anyone had any really unoriginal ideas that they look back on and just laugh at the pure uncreativeness of it all?



Don't think I had much trouble with that, my old ideas were so far out there though that I don't think anyone but me would have enjoyed it.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2007)

Pretty much all of my old ideas were for video game plots. Hell my current story started out as a game idea. (It still is in some ways) I'm kind of proud of most of them. Though the shitty ideas really came in through the influence of a friend. My story used to be permeated with half baked vampire ideas and such. (Though there is a small amount of vampirism in my story now I will admit) Looking back though it allowed my story to evolve to where it is today.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 18, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Pretty much all of my old ideas were for video game plots. Hell my current story started out as a game idea. (It still is in some ways) I'm kind of proud of most of them. Though the shitty ideas really came in through the influence of a friend. My story used to be permeated with half baked vampire ideas and such. (Though there is a small amount of vampirism in my story now I will admit) Looking back though it allowed my story to evolve to where it is today.



I have vampires in my stories and although the early storyline focuses on them, they are phased out for the more eminent threat later on


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2007)

I have a character with slightly vampiric tendencies.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 18, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I have a character with slightly vampiric tendencies.



I have a whole group of them, and one of the main villains is one too. The three main vampires I write about are Claudia, Sabrina and Pellegri.


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## Prince Leon (Jun 18, 2007)

Can't say I've had any vampires in my stories. If I were to have any they'd be female anyways.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 20, 2007)

Prince Leon said:


> Can't say I've had any vampires in my stories. If I were to have any they'd be female anyways.



Most of mine are female...but why would they have to be female?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 20, 2007)

The person in my story who has vampiric tendencies is male.


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## Prince Leon (Jun 20, 2007)

Fame<Infamy said:


> Most of mine are female...but why would they have to be female?



Well, I would have a one male, but that'd be the main character himself.

I tend not to have a lot of male characters to begin with in most of my novels. Sometimes the ratio is even and other times it's unbalanced in favor of female characters.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 20, 2007)

Prince Leon said:


> Well, I would have a one male, but that'd be the main character himself.
> 
> I tend not to have a lot of male characters to begin with in most of my novels. Sometimes the ratio is even and other times it's unbalanced in favor of female characters.



I'm more or less the same, I tend to have far too many female characters, I am working on fixing that right now though by introducing a few more males and even moving characters in and out of the story.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 20, 2007)

I'm pretty even gender ratio-wise.


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## Tiger (Jun 20, 2007)

Just found this thread.
I'm up to 150 pages in my current novel, but it's because I've run into a type of block lately. I know what I want to happen, and I know that if I turn off my music and close the internet...I can put it down in words...but I just don't. I think I need to start working out more to clear my head and motivate me to write instead of sit on these damn forums doing nothing for hours on end.

To jump into the current topic - my male-female ration is pretty even, and among the more powerful/endearing characters...it's no different. In my current story, many of the characters are young, but one of the girls will end up being head and shoulders above anyone else.

My only "slightly" vampiric character is male, and the protagonist.

And if anyone's interested, the story is likely the first of a trilogy. Which will continue in other trilogies later with a Shannara-esque feel to it. Could be lame, could be great...who knows. At the moment, my goal is getting something published, then I'll worry about getting past the pilot episode...


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## Lord Yu (Jun 20, 2007)

I often listen to music while writing. How about you guys?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 20, 2007)

Eddy-sensei said:


> Just found this thread.
> I'm up to 150 pages in my current novel, but it's because I've run into a type of block lately. I know what I want to happen, and I know that if I turn off my music and close the internet...I can put it down in words...but I just don't. I think I need to start working out more to clear my head and motivate me to write instead of sit on these damn forums doing nothing for hours on end.
> 
> To jump into the current topic - my male-female ration is pretty even, and among the more powerful/endearing characters...it's no different. In my current story, many of the characters are young, but one of the girls will end up being head and shoulders above anyone else.
> ...



I am having the same problem, I know exactly what's going to happen next but I just need to write it. I have so many real world distractions, I just need to do like I used to and just head over to Starbucks and stay there until I do thirty pages in a day like I used to. 

I'm not sure what Shannara is, but I do think you are right about the published thing. I decided last night that I am going to work on revising this story, instead of rewriting it again after this. For the first time I have no references to other stories or made up characters, so this should work out fine. 

Now I just need to find the time to write it.


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## Batman (Jun 20, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I often listen to music while writing. How about you guys?



Not I. Silence is golden or I can't concentrate as well.


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## Prince Leon (Jun 20, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I often listen to music while writing. How about you guys?



I'm quite sure you know my reply already. 

But for those who don't: Yeah I do. It really helps me get into the groove of certain scenes.


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## Noah (Jun 20, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I often listen to music while writing. How about you guys?



Only if there are no lyrics in the song. When I was at school, I found out that lyrics tend to distract me from studying, while instrumentals were helpful. Same goes for any writing or sketching I do.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jun 20, 2007)

Yes, songs without words. Classicala nd Orbital FTW.



Lord Yu said:


> I don't really know if my action sequences are good or not either.



Read Dan Abnett's Gaaunt's Ghosts.

Taught me everything I need too know about action scenes...

Well, most things anyway.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 20, 2007)

I work as well with lyrics as I do without.


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## Anaiya (Jun 20, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I often listen to music while writing. How about you guys?



I have to listen to music to drown out my kids so I can think.   

It is _never_ quiet enough to write here and now that it's been noisy for so long I'm not even sure if I could think when it's quiet.  I think, at this point, I need noise.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 20, 2007)

The Pink Ninja said:


> Yes, songs without words. Classicala nd Orbital FTW.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well I might check that out...I really haven't read many small scale action scenes where there wasn't a big battle going on.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 20, 2007)

I can't have anything going off whilst writing. I get distracted very easily


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 20, 2007)

I watch television while writing, and often I listen to my iTunes (iTunes for the win) but sometimes I get in that groove where I can't even start iTunes before words start flying onto the page. I have spent entire saturdays in seclusion without food and just drinking tea writing page after page, that's the best feeling ever.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 20, 2007)

Most of my action scenes are of the duel variety.

While writing. I usually listen to music. I keep my TV off. (Well it's normally off anyway) My most creative moments tend to happen in the wee hours of the morning. Usually 2-4am.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 20, 2007)

My most creative moments usually come after me consuming large amounts of caffeine and then doing strenuous activities.


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## The Thieving Queen (Jun 20, 2007)

Mine come in the dead of night just before I nod off, I really got to get started, I've got the storyline and main event pretty much set, still confused on what I'll do for the ending though. :/


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 20, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Most of my action scenes are of the duel variety.
> 
> While writing. I usually listen to music. I keep my TV off. (Well it's normally off anyway) My most creative moments tend to happen in the wee hours of the morning. Usually 2-4am.



I have the same problem, I need to be sleep and my minds running a million miles an hour. I have only done the duel a few times. Man with the Golden Gun style. I think they are dramatic and effective. 



Robotkiller said:


> My most creative moments usually come after me consuming large amounts of caffeine and then doing strenuous activities.



I think caffeine does it for me too, but activities? I think not lol. When I go running sometimes I get all of these ideas...and when I get back they're gone. 



The Thieving Queen said:


> Mine come in the dead of night just before I nod off, I really got to get started, I've got the storyline and main event pretty much set, still confused on what I'll do for the ending though. :/



Short story or long?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 21, 2007)

Sometimes I fear my pacing is too fast. Some things I mean to last for long periods blow by quickly. I sometimes fear I'm missing good points for development.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 21, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Sometimes I fear my pacing is too fast. Some things I mean to last for long periods blow by quickly. I sometimes fear I'm missing good points for development.



I know this is going to sound a little confusing, but while reading through your work I think I realized your overall problem.

You focus on where you want the plot to go, rather than on the characters themselves and their feelings towards their ever-changing environment. This isn't bad in itself, but when combined with your choice of writing style this is especially made obvious because of your perspective (The first person). Fist person POV is supposed to give the reader an intimate understanding of the main character's state-of-mind. 

You need to focus more on describing feelings, and how characters react realistically to shocking revelations.

I know this is going to sound stupid and obvious, but try empathetic writing. Place yourself in their shoes, describe their feelings as if they were your own. Then filter out those feeling with the characters personality.

Do that and you should be good.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 21, 2007)

How far are you? I think I got better at that.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jun 21, 2007)

Pacing is something too be looked at in the second draft. Then you can either expand or contract various stages and points.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 21, 2007)

Personally, I feel alot of things could use expansion. I had some great ideas thrown out due to impatience.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jun 21, 2007)

Impatience and epic fantasy series go together like Conservatives and Workers Unions ¬___¬


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## Lord Yu (Jun 21, 2007)

Cursed ADD.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 21, 2007)

I am working on expansion of my story. On my draft before this, I only had fifty two pages...now I have fifty pages and I'm not near the end.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 21, 2007)

Hey, henry. Have you worked on that fanfic for the contest at all? I'm curious to Know how mine stacks up how you're progressing


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## Robotkiller (Jun 21, 2007)

Hey, henry. Have you worked on that fanfic for the contest at all? I'm curious to Know how mine stacks up how you're progressing


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## Prince Leon (Jun 21, 2007)

How do you guys and gals determine a character's role/purpose? I suppose this usually applies to those outside of the absolute main characters but are still among the main cast but I guess it can apply to all characters...or something. >.<


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## The Pink Ninja (Jun 21, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> Hey, henry. Have you worked on that fanfic for the contest at all? I'm curious to Know how mine stacks up how you're progressing



Haven't even begun.

I'm going into town tomorrow.

From Saturday I'm working too a timetable: Writing, drawing, learning Japanese, reading ect ect ect...

You'll be better though ¬___¬


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## Robotkiller (Jun 21, 2007)

The Pink Ninja said:


> Haven't even begun.
> 
> I'm going into town tomorrow.
> 
> ...



From what I've seen, you're a better writer than me, good sir >:3

Though I think reading asoiaf has dramatically increased my third person POV writing skills.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jun 21, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> From what I've seen, you're a better writer than me, good sir >:3



You've seen shit ?___?



> Though I think reading asoiaf has dramatically increased my third person POV writing skills.



I used too feel the same about Gaunt's Ghosts and action writing I did for City of Heroes fanfiction.


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## The Thieving Queen (Jun 21, 2007)

Fame<Infamy said:


> Short story or long?


Long, this is the one I'm hoping to get a chance on submitting to a publisher. 

I've already put in my contest entry, I re-read it and saw how quite crap-tacular it is, no plot lawl stupid.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 21, 2007)

*Is still afraid of fanfiction*


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 22, 2007)

Prince Leon said:


> How do you guys and gals determine a character's role/purpose? I suppose this usually applies to those outside of the absolute main characters but are still among the main cast but I guess it can apply to all characters...or something. >.<



Simply I usually let them decide themselves. Allow me to explain, when I start to write and I have a new character, I begin to put them in the story with their own personality. Somehow in my head they just tell me what they would do. 



Lord Yu said:


> *Is still afraid of fanfiction*



Me too friend, I stopped after I used to write Zelda fan fiction long ago. 



The Thieving Queen said:


> Long, this is the one I'm hoping to get a chance on submitting to a publisher.
> 
> I've already put in my contest entry, I re-read it and saw how quite crap-tacular it is, no plot lawl stupid.



What is it supposed to be about? I think it might be easier to submit a short story, just for a magazine to get out there you know?


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## Robotkiller (Jun 22, 2007)

Have any of you ever used your writing prowess for evil?

In...8th grade I beleive it was, I wrote a homoerotic story (In jest) and placed it inside of my teacher's lunch box. I believe I wrote 5 such periodicals over the course of that year, One I even placed it on his desk. He never figured out it was I because I'm fairly good at changing my writing mannerisms when I need to.

I believe that is the first time I used my skills for evil XD


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## Anaiya (Jun 22, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> Have any of you ever used your writing prowess for evil?
> 
> In...8th grade I beleive it was, I wrote a homoerotic story (In jest) and placed it inside of my teacher's lunch box. I believe I wrote 5 such periodicals over the course of that year, One I even placed it on his desk. He never figured out it was I because I'm fairly good at changing my writing mannerisms when I need to.
> 
> I believe that is the first time I used my skills for evil XD



In high school, I would right farces about all of our most interesting teachers.  My stories were wild dramatic exaggerations of their amusing characteristics woven into epic type short stories (short being 20-40 pages long generally) about a magical world called high school where these mystical beings we called teachers reigned supreme in all their hilarity.  The stories were fairly popular among fellow students.  How could they not be; Mel Brooks was my inspiration.   

That's as evil as I got with my writing, I think.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 22, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> Have any of you ever used your writing prowess for evil?
> 
> In...8th grade I beleive it was, I wrote a homoerotic story (In jest) and placed it inside of my teacher's lunch box. I believe I wrote 5 such periodicals over the course of that year, One I even placed it on his desk. He never figured out it was I because I'm fairly good at changing my writing mannerisms when I need to.
> 
> I believe that is the first time I used my skills for evil XD



I wrote emo poetry in high school. The first one was a failed short story but people had funny reaction too it so I wrote more.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 26, 2007)

XD

That reminds me, I once left a suicide letter on my teachers desk but left it unsigned with no name.

I look back on that now and.....no wait...it's still funny.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 26, 2007)

I'm taking a new view on my writing. I'm gonna use this view to write my current arc and pretend the mistakes I've made didn't happen. Then I'm gonna go back and edit the shit out of my story. I'll also use the 3rd person view as help. I'm going to write the 3rd person version guided by the first person version and use it to correct the mistakes of the 1st person version and use the 1st person to improve the 3rd person.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 26, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm taking a new view on my writing. I'm gonna use this view to write my current arc and pretend the mistakes I've made didn't happen. Then I'm gonna go back and edit the shit out of my story. I'll also use the 3rd person view as help. I'm going to write the 3rd person version guided by the first person version and use it to correct the mistakes of the 1st person version and use the 1st person to improve the 3rd person.



Be careful doing this, I once thought that it would be easier, but really with first person you need to write true to the words that character would use. And third person differs a lot from this in that it can be more flowery, descriptive and the like.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 26, 2007)

What I'm talking about is background. I'm using third person to get a better idea of the surroundings of each character so I can better write the characters reactions to the surroundings.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 26, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> What I'm talking about is background. I'm using third person to get a better idea of the surroundings of each character so I can better write the characters reactions to the surroundings.



Oh I see what you mean, I have been working a lot in first person and its going to get really hard to do the third person thing again. 

But I am going to have to do it again. 

I'm happy though my first story is almost done.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 26, 2007)

I've always written in the third person, the main problem with that POV is that sometimes you can lull yourself into a monotonous writing style, hell, even the professionals have problems with keeping their 3rd POVs from suffering the 'list' syndrome (Describing character's appearances in a list. like what they're wearing, scenery, etc.)

The first person has never really appealed to me for some reason. I think I may just enjoy the feeling of omnipotence that I receive when I can write things from outside of the character's perception.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jun 26, 2007)

I never thought of 1st person until reading a good story written in first person (Farseer Trilogy).

And I think everyone would always been vunerable too list syndrome... outside of screenplays anyway.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 26, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> I've always written in the third person, the main problem with that POV is that sometimes you can lull yourself into a monotonous writing style, hell, even the professionals have problems with keeping their 3rd POVs from suffering the 'list' syndrome (Describing character's appearances in a list. like what they're wearing, scenery, etc.)
> 
> The first person has never really appealed to me for some reason. I think I may just enjoy the feeling of omnipotence that I receive when I can write things from outside of the character's perception.



I love the third person a lot but I have grown to not like the distance that it puts between the character and the reader.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 26, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> I've always written in the third person, the main problem with that POV is that sometimes you can lull yourself into a monotonous writing style, hell, even the professionals have problems with keeping their 3rd POVs from suffering the 'list' syndrome (Describing character's appearances in a list. like what they're wearing, scenery, etc.)
> 
> The first person has never really appealed to me for some reason. I think I may just enjoy the feeling of omnipotence that I receive when I can write things from outside of the character's perception.



Wooh, I thought it was just me.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 26, 2007)

The Pink Ninja said:


> I never thought of 1st person until reading a good story written in first person (Farseer Trilogy).
> 
> And I think everyone would always been vunerable too list syndrome... outside of screenplays anyway.



Really? Some of the greatest works ever are written in First Person, I think its hard to master in some respects, the main problem with Third person is making sure to keep your person bias out of the story.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 26, 2007)

I'll be the first to admit it. My characters sound too similar. Though some of it is a little intentional considering familial relations. But one character I decided logically should have an accent. So I'm going to change his accent from now on and go back and edit properly later. Oh Gohei how I messed you up. He should sound alot more rural then I made him.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jun 26, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Really?



I was only 15 I think ?___?

Before then all I'd read for a long time was third person fantasy. That was all I knew. Even other mediums: Plays, Films, TV, Games... are they not mostly in third person too?



> Some of the greatest works ever are written in First Person,



Most, probably ?___?



> I think its hard to master in some respects, the main problem with Third person is making sure to keep your person bias out of the story.



Isn't that always a problem?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 26, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I'll be the first to admit it. My characters sound too similar. Though some of it is a little intentional considering familial relations. But one character I decided logically should have an accent. So I'm going to change his accent from now on and go back and edit properly later. Oh Gohei how I messed you up. He should sound alot more rural then I made him.



Luckily I seem to be able to write good dialog. The only advice I can give to help you is for you to go to a place where people gather and just listen to them talk. Write down how things are said and what kind of people say them, think about tone, pitch, speed and their repetition of words.

For instance I have one character that says Boss and Chief a lot. The thing is I can't have hear saying it to the point that its annoying, so I just try to use it only when I have to.

I did have one question, how do you guys feel about cursing in literature?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 26, 2007)

I can write rural fine. I DO live in the dead center of Ohio. So I know rural.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 26, 2007)

The Pink Ninja said:


> I was only 15 I think ?___?



Oh alright, that makes more sense. 



The Pink Ninja said:


> Before then all I'd read for a long time was third person fantasy. That was all I knew. Even other mediums: Plays, Films, TV, Games... are they not mostly in third person too?



Well movies and the like are hard to really do from first person, but the majority of the things written now are third person introverted because a lot of authors have a good story but they aren't that good at writing. 

This differs from Omni-third person because you only get one characters side of the story at a time. Its like the mix of third and first. 




The Pink Ninja said:


> Isn't that always a problem?



Well for me its less of a problem with the first person because I have to stay in their voice all of the time. With third I just have to keep certain things from creeping into my writer voice.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 26, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I did have one question, how do you guys feel about cursing in literature?



I'm perfectly fine with it. It often helps personify the character with real-world traits. I mean, I've never really seen any mainstream authors using vernacular language or swearing as a means for characterization. I intend to.

Though I imagine it could put people off from reading your work...people are sensitive these days.


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## Prince Leon (Jun 26, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I did have one question, how do you guys feel about cursing in literature?



For me, it depends on the character. Usually I have a character who tends a be a little more free with their language for whatever reason they feel fit to use it for. My main protagonists don't usually curse in common situations.

One of my current novels (that deals with angels) has a handful of characters that do curse but most of them are fallen angels or are demons.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 26, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> I'm perfectly fine with it. It often helps personify the character with real-world traits. I mean, I've never really seen any mainstream authors using vernacular language or swearing as a means for characterization. I intend to.
> 
> Though I imagine it could put people off from reading your work...people are sensitive these days.



Yeah I know it might put them off but I think that its part of my style and I have seen some authors use it. 



Prince Leon said:


> For me, it depends on the character. Usually I have a character who tends a be a little more free with their language for whatever reason they feel fit to use it for. My main protagonists don't usually curse in common situations.
> 
> One of my current novels (that deals with angels) has a handful of characters that do curse but most of them are fallen angels or are demons.



My main character curses a lot as do a few supports.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 26, 2007)

Robotkiller said:


> I'm perfectly fine with it. It often helps personify the character with real-world traits. I mean, I've never really seen any mainstream authors using vernacular language or swearing as a means for characterization. I intend to.
> 
> Though I imagine it could put people off from reading your work...people are sensitive these days.



I use cursing at varying degrees. Some characters curse alot some have blue moon slips. It's something that I'm not at all afraid to use.


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## Tiger (Jun 27, 2007)

Cursing depends completely on the character using the curse.
You should never under any circumstance curse in narrative. There is no point to it at all.

As the writer, you wouldn't say:

"The early evening air was humid, flat, and really fuckin hot."

But if you are writing a character's speech, if the character is vulgar, then it wouldn't be too strange for him or her to say it instead.

'Chris and Josie pushed open the door, and were immediately beset by the thick heat of the desert afternoon'

"Holy shit it's hot!" She said.


~~

Just my opinion anyway, and for me - a character that curses is well-defined. Not just any of my characters will swear, and if they do - they have a damn good reason for it. And then there are characters who might swear every time they speak...that would be a defining characteristic.

Be careful not to allow all characters to curse just because you curse in real life. It's not normal for everyone, and in literature, it stands out more than it does in real life. Literature is supposed to be more polished than a real situation. Even King, Crichton and Koontz do this, and their stories are often just regular people in regular ol towns.

(I wrote more about that than I expected to)

I posted here, and then forgot to check back. I had thought I subscribed to the thread, but I guess not!

How many people in here are writing for the purpose of actually getting published and semi-frequent paychecks?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 27, 2007)

Eddy-sensei said:


> Cursing depends completely on the character using the curse.
> You should never under any circumstance curse in narrative. There is no point to it at all.
> 
> As the writer, you wouldn't say:
> ...



Well what about in a first person story? 

Should the narrator use cursing if its part of their character...I know I have and I have read other authors do it. There really are no concrete rules in creative writing. But what do you think?


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## Anaiya (Jun 27, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well what about in a first person story?
> 
> Should the narrator use cursing if its part of their character...I know I have and I have read other authors do it. There really are no concrete rules in creative writing. But what do you think?



It is generally not well accepted, but it would probably all come down to the end result.  The story itself would have to be very captivating if you are trying for more than one distinct target group of readers.  The cursing would really have to be substantially necessary to the development of the story for it to be widely accepted and enjoyed.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 27, 2007)

Eddy-sensei said:


> Cursing depends completely on the character using the curse.
> You should never under any circumstance curse in narrative. There is no point to it at all.
> 
> As the writer, you wouldn't say:
> ...



Just for that I'm gonna start a third person short story with that exact line.  There are NO limits my friend. I don't know what world you live in, but in my world we write free and tell the story however the fuck we want!


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## Lord Yu (Jun 27, 2007)

Anaiya said:


> It is generally not well accepted, but it would probably all come down to the end result.  The story itself would have to be very captivating if you are trying for more than one distinct target group of readers.  The cursing would really have to be substantially necessary to the development of the story for it to be widely accepted and enjoyed.



My target audience is and always will be me. I hate myself more then anyone in the world. If I could enjoy my own writing anyone can. Real writing is not for such ridiculous things as "demographics". It's what's in your soul. Too many people think that way and too much crap gets out there. If I feel like cursing in a line I'll curse whether it's offensive or not. Fuck conservative pigs who would restrict my tongue. People talk people curse, people say alot of things that wouldn't be acceptable in Sunday school. 

My book hits topics like:
Sadism (both general and sexual)
Paedophilic rape
Regular rape  
i*c*st
Genocide
Cross dressing

probably some other tidbits I'm missing. But general things like magic can get you in trouble.

Just needed to get that off my chest.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 27, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> My target audience is and always will be me. I hate myself more then anyone in the world. If I could enjoy my own writing anyone can. Real writing is not for such ridiculous things as "demographics". It's what's in your soul. Too many people think that way and too much crap gets out there. If I feel like cursing in a line I'll curse whether it's offensive or not. Fuck conservative pigs who would restrict my tongue. People talk people curse, people say alot of things that wouldn't be acceptable in Sunday school.
> 
> My book hits topics like:
> Sadism (both general and sexual)
> ...



I really believe that too, I don't generally break out and curse in third person. But my story touches on some really awkward and taboo topics, and its not for the sake of being edgy and cantankerous, its for the point of showing how bad things got to drive the characters apart and the like.


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## Robotkiller (Jun 27, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> My target audience is and always will be me. I hate myself more then anyone in the world. If I could enjoy my own writing anyone can. Real writing is not for such ridiculous things as "demographics". It's what's in your soul. Too many people think that way and too much crap gets out there. If I feel like cursing in a line I'll curse whether it's offensive or not. Fuck conservative pigs who would restrict my tongue. People talk people curse, people say alot of things that wouldn't be acceptable in Sunday school.
> 
> My book hits topics like:
> Sadism (both general and sexual)
> ...



I think you may just have the next harry potter on your hands, my friend.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 27, 2007)

^lol. Last night I removed a pointless chapter from my story. Now my story is 10% less fail.


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## Anaiya (Jun 27, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> My target audience is and always will be me. I hate myself more then anyone in the world. If I could enjoy my own writing anyone can. Real writing is not for such ridiculous things as "demographics". It's what's in your soul. Too many people think that way and too much crap gets out there. If I feel like cursing in a line I'll curse whether it's offensive or not. Fuck conservative pigs who would restrict my tongue. People talk people curse, people say alot of things that wouldn't be acceptable in Sunday school.
> 
> My book hits topics like:
> Sadism (both general and sexual)
> ...



Hehe, I'm not saying don't write it, I'm just saying it might not get published or at least not earn you any big bucks if it is.  You never know for certain until you try, though.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 27, 2007)

I don't care about money. I don't like the idea of the spotlight.


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## Batman (Jun 27, 2007)

It's rare when I'll curse in a story. A lot of times I feel the actual curse words take away from the emotion, and makes it a bit more comical.


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## Anaiya (Jun 27, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I don't like the idea of the spotlight.



I don't either.  I once had a publisher get angry at me because I wouldn't provide him with my real name.  I told him he could publish my story knowing only my pen name and a PO Box or he could choose to not publish it at all.  

Fortunately, I don't make my living off of my writing and I can make such demands.


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## Prince Leon (Jun 27, 2007)

I just recently wrapped up about 85% of the major plot twist in my angel novel. This is the baby I'm counting on to surprise readers and drag out varying reactions. I'm about 99% certain that it's unpredictable until a certain point where I begin to drop minute hints and the like.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 27, 2007)

Batman said:


> It's rare when I'll curse in a story. A lot of times I feel the actual curse words take away from the emotion, and makes it a bit more comical.



I believe they can be used to showcase intense stress and frustration. I don't really see anything inherently comical about them.


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## Tiger (Jun 29, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I believe they can be used to showcase intense stress and frustration. I don't really see anything inherently comical about them.



Well, I agree with Batman.
I think cursing has its place in writing, but in general it's what people do when they don't know what else to say. To many, it's a sign of lesser intelligence to feel the need to curse every 5-10 minutes for no good reason.

All too often you will find people justifying their cursing as something "adults do", when in fact it's more like something "angsty teens do to make themselves sound adult".

Which is fine, if you have characters that fit the mold. But you AS the narrator, should not be dabbling your feet in that pool.

@CTK: Obviously, if you are writing in first-person, then you are not the narrator. So if the character would swear, then it would seem weird for you not to. However, some people swear out loud to emphasize something that they would not emphasize in their head. So therefore, you would have considerably less swearing with an inner monologue than you might if the person were speaking.

And yes, there ARE rules. They are unwritten, unspoken, and uncared about. They are called conventions. You can be an unconventional writer if that's what floats your boat...but your writing had better be fucking brilliant (I cursed!) because if it's just mediocre, than you will not get away with being "out of the mold".

The worst possible thing you can do is act mock-offended by some mysterious hand holding back your creative talent with 'rules'. No need to be so dramatic, but if you do plan on having an editor and publisher take on your work, you do need to understand what their conventions are. And your writing has a demographic, whether you want it to or not. It's fine if you think your demographic is people who think, dress, eat, drink, act and think like you...just make sure that's more than one person.

Personally, I write fantasy. Not a lot of cursing going on there, and if there is...it's usually not what WE would consider a curse. Generally, in fantasy, if someone curses; you see something like: '...Kristoph uttered a vile curse, and Amelia shook her head sadly as she understood the extent of his...' etc.

If I wrote it:

'"Fuck this." Kristoph uttered.
Amelia shook her head sadly and finally understood...'

It puts in an unnecessary vulgarity to my writing. I don't find it necessary to get the "flinch reaction" from my reader, because that's what it gets. Also, if you find a way to curse without using the actual words, then your reader can use their imagination for what was said...and that is never a bad thing. Everyone's idea of what makes a curse terrible is different, so subjecting your reader to your version doesn't really help if they don't see it the same way.

'"Flying Fricktards." Kristoph uttered.'
'"Jesus-shit-piss!" Kristoph uttered.'
'"That cunt!" Kristoph uttered.'

If I left it ambiguous, then it's not a focal point in the scene and the reader will take the context, add the character's personality, and form their own appropriate curse for the situation. 

I just think being vague has more merit than swearing "just because it's life and I swear, so why shouldn't I do it in writing??" To me, it's no different than using slang and contractions in a college-level essay. Just because it's how you talk in real life doesn't mean it needs to be written out.

Then, when it comes right down to it, I've known too many people whom I respected greatly who do not take a person very seriously when they curse for no reason, and doubly-so when it's in writing. Most people I know who read the kind of books I like to write don't find it necessary to swear either, so when I hear people say: "it's life, people curse!" I really wonder. Do they? I think the difference is, some people grew out of that at some point during their education. 

Perhaps it makes me less of an artist when I clearly set out rules for my writing so that I can attract the audience I believe is my target...but honestly, I never cared if someone thought I was an artist. If I get published, I'll use a portion of the relatively small cheque to pay someone to call me an artist. Anyone want a quick $20?  

(I think it's also culture and surroundings. But don't assume that since everyone you know in your immediate surroundings swears that it is in fact normal everywhere.)


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## The Pink Ninja (Jun 29, 2007)

The five rules for getting published:

1) Don't cross Genres (Rare examples of it working but very much the exceptions. If you really must wait until you're more established)

2) Don't get/listen too critcism and advice from family and friends, only from professionals and experts.

3) Network. Go too writers conferences and keep your ear too the ground as too who maybe hiring and what people are looking for in a book these days. Build up contacts in the business.

4) Believe your writing is a good and worth reading yet at the same time be ready too change. Many many authors  have been persuaded too change the topic or style of their writing too great sucess.

5) The begining is the most important part of your book, make sure it is made of awesome and caek (My personal note is that this is very true. Also make sure you ahve a satisfying ending so they read your books again but don't get too stressed out as I notice alot of books have weak endings, even well regarded classics).


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## Lord Yu (Jun 29, 2007)

Good beginning? My story is just way too out there for the general public.  I seriously doubt I'll get published.  I might put it to a publisher for lulz one day. Oh well, everything's going through heavy editing. So far I've deleted two full chapters and I'm completely rewriting one.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 29, 2007)

Eddy-sensei said:


> Big ass post



My genre is dystopian sci-fi fantasy. In the cultures I present it's not out of place for characters to use the salty language. Also not to mention three of my characters are originally from Earth. I usually use curse words in times of extreme emotion and frustration as previously mentioned. Like say when a whole lot of people just died. I'd say a good bloodbath is enough to even make a preacher cuss.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 29, 2007)

Thanks fuckers...for responding so much. 



Anaiya said:


> I don't either.  I once had a publisher get angry at me because I wouldn't provide him with my real name.  I told him he could publish my story knowing only my pen name and a PO Box or he could choose to not publish it at all.
> 
> Fortunately, I don't make my living off of my writing and I can make such demands.



Why don't you want to use your real name? 



Prince Leon said:


> I just recently wrapped up about 85% of the major plot twist in my angel novel. This is the baby I'm counting on to surprise readers and drag out varying reactions. I'm about 99% certain that it's unpredictable until a certain point where I begin to drop minute hints and the like.



My story (as I have stated before) is about angels and the like too. The thing is I am trying to make sure that everything that can go wrong for these characters will, for the most part. But I think that there needs to be some happy stuff that goes on, so that its not all depressing. 



Lord Yu said:


> I believe they can be used to showcase intense stress and frustration. I don't really see anything inherently comical about them.



Me either actually, but the thing is if you use curses like "Fuck!" then its going to have the desired reaction much more often than using "Fuckity-fuck-fucker" mostly because that just looks comical and silly.



*Spoiler*: _Eddy_ 






Eddy-sensei said:


> @CTK: Obviously, if you are writing in first-person, then you are not the narrator. So if the character would swear, then it would seem weird for you not to. However, some people swear out loud to emphasize something that they would not emphasize in their head. So therefore, you would have considerably less swearing with an inner monologue than you might if the person were speaking.
> 
> And yes, there ARE rules. They are unwritten, unspoken, and uncared about. They are called conventions. You can be an unconventional writer if that's what floats your boat...but your writing had better be fucking brilliant (I cursed!) because if it's just mediocre, than you will not get away with being "out of the mold".
> 
> ...






Almost every book you will read on writing will say as the last rule, break the rules. And there's good reason for that. We as a society have become more liberal in our speech, our movies and television reflect this...but books and novels seem to be stuck in the past.

I'm not saying I am going to change things, but I think that people should be more accepting of books that have cursing.I think the guy who wrote Fight Club is actually doing a good job of doing that. 

I have scaled back my cursing a lot for various reasons and not all of my characters curse.


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## Anaiya (Jun 29, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Why don't you want to use your real name?



Mostly because I feel the need to separate my personal self from my writing in order to write realistically on topics that do not fit into my own persona.  

Also, one of my specialties is erotic fiction.  I'm good at writing it in general, but I don't really like the stuff.  Even thought I wrote it, I don't want to be associated with it.  

Or more frankly:
I don't want my smut to mar my credibility as a happy rural mother with a comparatively tame sex life and I don't want my personal life as a rural mother with a comparatively tame sex life to mar my credibility as a writer of erotic fiction.  I would rather my readers enjoy the story on its face and my friends and family to be joyfully oblivious of my secret life of smut writing.  

Well, that and I suffer from paranoia.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 29, 2007)

Anaiya said:


> Mostly because I feel the need to separate my personal self from my writing in order to write realistically on topics that do not fit into my own persona.
> 
> Also, one of my specialties is erotic fiction.  I'm good at writing it in general, but I don't really like the stuff.  Even thought I wrote it, I don't want to be associated with it.
> 
> ...



Well I don't think that erotica has to be smut, but it gets regarded that way because of some of the people writing it using it that way. I've never really read much of it but I am sure it can be well written. If that's your specialty be proud of it. 

But I can understand. I just have to ask this now, how old are you? (if you don't mind me asking) I've really only ever seen you in here.


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## Anaiya (Jun 29, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well I don't think that erotica has to be smut, but it gets regarded that way because of some of the people writing it using it that way. I've never really read much of it but I am sure it can be well written. If that's your specialty be proud of it.
> 
> But I can understand. I just have to ask this now, how old are you? (if you don't mind me asking) I've really only ever seen you in here.



Some of my stuff can very easily be labeled smut.   

I'm relatively new to this group, but I've been around the NF for over a year now, I think.  I sometimes wonder if I am the oldest active member at 32.    

I have come to impose my vast wisdom and intellectual prowess on the youth of these forums!    Er, I mean, I enjoy Naruto and Bleach and I don't wanna feel old!  

Edit: ok, more like 8 months.  It just feels longer.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 29, 2007)

Anaiya said:


> Some of my stuff can very easily be labeled smut.
> 
> I'm relatively new to this group, but I've been around the NF for over a year now, I think.  I sometimes wonder if I am the oldest active member at 32.
> 
> I have come to impose my vast wisdom and intellectual prowess on the youth of these forums!    Er, I mean, I enjoy Naruto and Bleach and I don't wanna feel old!



Well that's fine to be a little older, I think you're close but not the oldest. We have a 33 year old that I think posts in the Bath House. 

I'd actually like to take a look at your writing because I've never gotten to see much good erotica. I worked for a Zelda fansite reviewing and we got utter trash all of the time. But it'd be nice to read a good one.


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## Prince Leon (Jun 29, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> My story (as I have stated before) is about angels and the like too. The thing is I am trying to make sure that everything that can go wrong for these characters will, for the most part. But I think that there needs to be some happy stuff that goes on, so that its not all depressing.



Ah~, poor characters. I mess with some of my own so much that it seems they could snap at any moment.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 29, 2007)

I too torture my characters.  But then again what's the point of happy characters? But still sometimes I think I go too far.


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## Prince Leon (Jun 29, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I too torture my characters.  But then again what's the point of happy characters? But still sometimes I think I go too far.



As long as they don't lose any limbs/sanity permanently. /runs


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## Lord Yu (Jun 29, 2007)

.............


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 29, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I too torture my characters.  But then again what's the point of happy characters? But still sometimes I think I go too far.



The point is that people really don't want to read something where there is no wins for the good guys to celebrate over. Especially a whole series of books as long as mine is going to end up being.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 29, 2007)

I don't think I'll write with a series in mind anymore. I'll just write a big ass book like I originally planned. I don't think I'd be as fluid if I thought about breaking it up.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 29, 2007)

Well I would just do a big ass book if I didn't need several point of view characters and about thirteen stories to complete this.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 29, 2007)

I switch viewpoints every chapter.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 29, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I switch viewpoints every chapter.



I can't do that because I think that its too hard for the reader to follow. Besides that would mean longer chapters and I'm a fan of smaller ones. Plus some of the books could stand alone and only slightly relate back. 

So I don't really see much other way to do it.


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## Anaiya (Jun 29, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I'd actually like to take a look at your writing because I've never gotten to see much good erotica. I worked for a Zelda fansite reviewing and we got utter trash all of the time. But it'd be nice to read a good one.



So, you had to read Zelda smut??

I'll see if I can find something in my stash that is presentable and not currently under contract.  Legally, I shouldn't share the polished stuff I have at the moment.  I won't be around this weekend, so give me a few days.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 29, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I can't do that because I think that its too hard for the reader to follow. Besides that would mean longer chapters and I'm a fan of smaller ones. Plus some of the books could stand alone and only slightly relate back.
> 
> So I don't really see much other way to do it.



I think I make it pretty easy to follow with subtle hints linking timelines.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 29, 2007)

Anaiya said:


> So, you had to read Zelda smut??
> 
> I'll see if I can find something in my stash that is presentable and not currently under contract.  Legally, I shouldn't share the polished stuff I have at the moment.  I won't be around this weekend, so give me a few days.



Alrightie, that's fine...so you have been writing a while it seems? 



Lord Yu said:


> I think I make it pretty easy to follow with subtle hints linking timelines.



Well subtle hints aren't good enough a lot of the time. If something is confusing people might not read it. I want people to know constantly where they are in the story, whether its ten years before this event, ten years after the last event or so fourth. 

Plus switching POV is just one of those rules I have for myself. But I will have some stories that are completely third person. So there will be a lot of view points.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 29, 2007)

All of my stuff happens at or around the same time. I don't jump from here to a guy a year in the future or ten years ago.


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## Dark_wolf247 (Jun 29, 2007)

Lord Yu said:
			
		

> I switch viewpoints every chapter.



First: Hi. :3 

Second: You mean you write in 1st POV with different characters?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 29, 2007)

Yes, I do.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 29, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> All of my stuff happens at or around the same time. I don't jump from here to a guy a year in the future or ten years ago.



My story has flashbacks going back really far sometimes, since some of the characters are vampires. And of the current characters some of them have children that will be the main characters in the end. 



Dark_wolf247 said:


> First: Hi. :3
> 
> Second: You mean you write in 1st POV with different characters?



That's what I was wondering to.


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## Dark_wolf247 (Jun 29, 2007)

@Lord Yu--You know, to be honest, I kind of envy you. I mean, I personally don't usually enjoy first-person novels/fanfiction (Maximum Ride is one of the few first-person books I've actually enjoyed), but I think it's amazing when an author can actually flow in first-person. I can't write in first person for the life of me. I don't why, but for me it's really difficult to like.. I guess to make the story sound natural? 

Whenever I've tried to write in first-person it's come out choppy and unnatural-sounding. So I just end up sticking to third-person. I envy those people who are good in writing in first-person, since it's a talent I don't seem to have the capability of learning. XD


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## Lord Yu (Jun 30, 2007)

If you read my story. You will spot several lol boss fight moments. God I love those.


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## Jink (Jun 30, 2007)

I wrote like 3 fanfics and some short stories that incite spam. Do i count as an aspiring novelist? Ever since I wrote my gay _I kissed a boy tonight_ fanfic in the BH I've really begun to like WRITTEN MAH BOOOKZ.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 30, 2007)

Fanfics do not count I'm afraid.


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## Noah (Jun 30, 2007)

While you guys are going on about breaking apart a story and differing POVs, I want to run something across you guys. I had this idea a few years ago when I started sketching out a story with about a half dozen main characters and subplots.

Write the whole story out, and then chop it up and put it back together in a seemingly random order.

For example:
Chapter/section 1: Characters A-C start their story.

Chapter 2: Skips forward some time and Character B is on his own and now with character F. 

Chapter 3: Jump back a little bit and A&B are meeting D.

Chapter 4: Flashback type chapter with AB&C before the story began.

And so it goes on in a seemingly random order. At one point maybe we have the aftermath of something important, but it's only eluded to what happened. So the reader would only know, say, that Character E is dead or gone. Then in a much later chapter (or book, if it spans several) we get the whole story on what happened to E.

I always thought it'd be a cool idea, but way too hard to write out and then try to sync up and sensor certain parts out. Nevermind confusing the reader, technical types will always take confusion to mean genius or creativity, so I wouldn't be worried about that.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 30, 2007)

Red_Squirrel said:


> While you guys are going on about breaking apart a story and differing POVs, I want to run something across you guys. I had this idea a few years ago when I started sketching out a story with about a half dozen main characters and subplots.
> 
> Write the whole story out, and then chop it up and put it back together in a seemingly random order.
> 
> ...



Sounds like that Pulp Fiction type of thing where the storyline is all separated up for a while and then comes together at the end. It works out well in movies and I am sure I have read books of that nature too, just can't think of what they were about. 




Lord Yu said:


> If you read my story. You will spot several lol boss fight moments. God I love those.



I don't really have anything that would be a boss fight really, but there are big fights that I think that certain fights could be counted that was depending upon who were to view them. Of course the fight at the end of the story could be a lot of the time. Or between a character and any number of the recurring antagonists.


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## Prince Leon (Jun 30, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> If you read my story. You will spot several lol boss fight moments. God I love those.



Do you add in any fanfare/victory poses after the fights?!


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## Lord Yu (Jun 30, 2007)

Prince Leon said:


> Do you add in any fanfare/victory poses after the fights?!



No, not really.


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## Prince Leon (Jun 30, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> No, not really.





If I were to do that, it would have to be a joke (I'd probably have someone asked the posing person if they think this is some kind of video game xD).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm trying to figure out what would constitute a boss fight in a story.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 30, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I'm trying to figure out what would constitute a boss fight in a story.



I started this as a game idea. Certain fights in my story when looked at through the viewpoint of a gamer have lol boss fight written all over them.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 30, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I started this as a game idea. Certain fights in my story when looked at through the viewpoint of a gamer have lol boss fight written all over them.



Well I hope you don't write Boss and the HP next to them.


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## Prince Leon (Jun 30, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I'm trying to figure out what would constitute a boss fight in a story.



I suppose any major antagonist would count. Whether that be 1 on 1 or any other mix of numbers.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 30, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well I hope you don't write Boss and the HP next to them.



I'm talking about fights with overpowered enemies. Hell they don't have to be major antagonists. They can sometimes just be giant monsters.


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## Prince Leon (Jun 30, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm talking about fights with overpowered enemies. Hell they don't have to be major antagonists. They can sometimes just be giant monsters.



That's true. Though I don't have much of those last time I checked.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 30, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm talking about fights with overpowered enemies. Hell they don't have to be major antagonists. They can sometimes just be giant monsters.



A lot of my normal antagonists are giant enemies, their demons and when a human has to fight them it makes the fight pretty hard.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm talking about mountain sized enemies compared to small foot soldier enemies.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 30, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm talking about mountain sized enemies compared to small foot soldier enemies.



Too huge to be realistic in the world of my story. I need them to not be that noticable since it takes place in modern times.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 1, 2007)

I need to stop ODing on anime. I also need to bring the focus away from fighting. Oh wait I started this as a video game idea lol. I forgot. Can't run away from my roots.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 1, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I need to stop ODing on anime. I also need to bring the focus away from fighting. Oh wait I started this as a video game idea lol. I forgot. Can't run away from my roots.



A good fight is a lot harder for me to write, I try to go with character development and the like and work up to fights here and there, although they will get more frequent and larger. The first few are like scuffles, and there's gun play which is hard to write in the first place.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 1, 2007)

My fights are usually melee weapons, fists, magic, people dashing around and stuff. I'm a super power whore.  But then again my fights aren't super long. I guess given certain situations. They aren't gratuitous. I need to tone down the detailed descriptions of certain things.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 1, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> My fights are usually melee weapons, fists, magic, people dashing around and stuff. I'm a super power whore.  But then again my fights aren't super long. I guess given certain situations. They aren't gratuitous. I need to tone down the detailed descriptions of certain things.



Well the Angels or Nephilim to be exact don't use guns and stuff, there's Death, she has a scythe, one other angel has a flaming sword, and one a giant harp...but most of the other characters, the demon hunters and the like have guns. 

And the angels use magic too, with the exception of the Angel of Might.


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## Prince Leon (Jul 2, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> My fights are usually melee weapons, fists, magic, people dashing around and stuff. I'm a super power whore.  But then again my fights aren't super long. I guess given certain situations. They aren't gratuitous. I need to tone down the detailed descriptions of certain things.



People tend to tell me that I write good action/fight scenes but some times I don't feel 100% about them...:sweat



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well the Angels or Nephilim to be exact don't use guns and stuff, there's Death, she has a scythe, one other angel has a flaming sword, and one a giant harp...but most of the other characters, the demon hunters and the like have guns.
> 
> And the angels use magic too, with the exception of the Angel of Might.





The Angels/Fallen Angels/Demons/Nephilim in my story are somewhat similar. xD

Most of them use swords while there are exceptions. Poles, bow+arrow, spears, scythes, fists and other stuff that I create on my own. My Death (is a she as well), doesn't really need a weapon (though she has one) since, well, she can just end your life with ease...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 2, 2007)

Prince Leon said:


> People tend to tell me that I write good action/fight scenes but some times I don't feel 100% about them...:sweat
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My Death, or Dee as she is called in the story is restricted and has her powers bound, so she is only a small percent of what she should be. She comes back from the future to help in a war that someone is waging on Hell. Her weapon is a scythe that's actually alive and only responds to who it wants to, usually her. 

I actually have pictures of Dee and her sister.



And then there is her and her sister at a younger age...


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## Prince Leon (Jul 2, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> My Death, or Dee as she is called in the story is restricted and has her powers bound, so she is only a small percent of what she should be. She comes back from the future to help in a war that someone is waging on Hell. Her weapon is a scythe that's actually alive and only responds to who it wants to, usually her.
> 
> I actually have pictures of Dee and her sister.
> 
> ...



Nice pics. Especially the second one. So cute. 

Death in my novel, or rather her proper title is Wings of Death, her name is Rena. For the most part, her character and past is a mystery. She is actually the head of a council in Heaven (which I call the Yggdrasil Council). Most of the time she rarely speaks and seldom shows emotion/facial expression chances. Technically speaking her power isn't limited, but of course she just can't go around killing off people without reason (those reasons being either it was their time to die or the person was a threat to heaven or God commanded it to be done). Throughout the first novel she usually remains in Heaven but is known to be seen around the main character at certain times and is one of the only known angels to report directly to God in his level of Heaven.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 2, 2007)

I don't have an embodiment of death in my story. The weapons that have appeared in my story are claws, guns, swords and fists.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 2, 2007)

Prince Leon said:


> Nice pics. Especially the second one. So cute.
> 
> Death in my novel, or rather her proper title is Wings of Death, her name is Rena. For the most part, her character and past is a mystery. She is actually the head of a council in Heaven (which I call the Yggdrasil Council). Most of the time she rarely speaks and seldom shows emotion/facial expression chances. Technically speaking her power isn't limited, but of course she just can't go around killing off people without reason (those reasons being either it was their time to die or the person was a threat to heaven or God commanded it to be done). Throughout the first novel she usually remains in Heaven but is known to be seen around the main character at certain times and is one of the only known angels to report directly to God in his level of Heaven.



Dee is actually half human, she's kind of the polar opposite of what you said your character is. She's very cheery, she loves to talk, always has a smile on her face and doesn't mind killing and goes about it in a cheerful matter. Although she is confident in her skill as a fighter and even at reduced power she still out does her mother (the Angel of might) and her sister (the angel of music). She's actually one of the stronger characters, and if I did a tear system she'd be second tear, under the Archangels probably.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 2, 2007)

It's sexy time and my brain isn't working. I fear my libido is gone.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 2, 2007)

Sexy time, what do you mean?


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## Lord Yu (Jul 2, 2007)

It's a highly sexual chapter and my brain is just unmanly.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 2, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> It's a highly sexual chapter and my brain is just unmanly.



Well I don't know if I can help with that, I don't have any chapters like that since I usually can't bring myself to write things that are really sexual. And I am starting to believe that sex kept off the page and alluded to works better.


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## Prince Leon (Jul 2, 2007)

@Yu: give it some time. :sweat



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Dee is actually half human, she's kind of the polar opposite of what you said your character is. She's very cheery, she loves to talk, always has a smile on her face and doesn't mind killing and goes about it in a cheerful matter. Although she is confident in her skill as a fighter and even at reduced power she still out does her mother (the Angel of might) and her sister (the angel of music). She's actually one of the stronger characters, and if I did a tear system she'd be second tear, under the Archangels probably.



That sounds great. 

I have half-angel/half-human (aka Nephilims) as well but they aren't allowed anywhere near Heaven (at least when they're alive). I only have about four of them that are apart of the main cast though (all female). As for Rena, no one really challenges her for fear of well, dying.  This doesn't hold true for my other character, the one who opposes Heaven (I can't necessarily call her an "antagonist" but I suppose that's what many would see her as), Lilith (former Archangel/Seraphim now a Fallen Angel, the leader to be precise). She doesn't show any fear towards Rena for reasons I explain as the story progresses.

As for ranking my main character is an Archangel, though a very young one. His other six friends are Archangels as well and make up the Seven Archangels. I also have an order of Valkyrie Archangels as well.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 2, 2007)

To be honest I think the sexual aspect helps bring my story a little more depth. I really don't think it would as good with a decent exploration of that side nature.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 2, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> To be honest I think the sexual aspect helps bring my story a little more depth. I really don't think it would as good with a decent exploration of that side nature.



At one point there will be a short sexual encounter, but it will be in third person and very brief and it will be lined up with several other events. 



Prince Leon said:


> @Yu: give it some time. :sweat
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dee is the daughter of another Nephilim, she is allowed into heaven and she is allowed all the privileges of any Angel except for the ArchAngels, but they later accept her into their circle. Her main function as Death is to be the horseman of the apocalypse and await that time to come. 

Dee has a sister, the picture I had with the two girls is of her and her older sister, the older sister is weaker than her and even at a young age Dee command a lot of power. The two sisters, Dee and Ashley, and their mother, Persephanie, all have elements attached to their power. Persephanie since she is the angel of might has control over water, Ashley being the angel of music has control over sound and electricity, and Dee being the Angel of Death and destruction has control over fire. 

Now I don't ever plan for them to get too strong, even Dee won't ever show her full power except for maybe one time. Besides regular powers like teleporting and flying, they also have telepathy between the three of them, and they don't have to breath and are immortal, as long as they aren't killed in battle. 

Subsequently Ashley ends up marrying someone who is half vampire further down the line so they have a daughter and a son who are half angel, a quarter vampire and a quarter human (because regardless of the mix the angel side is half)

@Lord Yu: I actually plan on having a short scene between Ashley and her boyfriend, that was what I spoke of. The scene will be well placed and as well written as I can do it.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 2, 2007)

I've had about two sexual scenes so far with on coming up very soon.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 2, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I've had about two sexual scenes so far with on coming up very soon.



Hmm I might have two before the series is over, but this first story only gets as sexual as the one I posted here earlier.


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## Prince Leon (Jul 2, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Dee is the daughter of another Nephilim, she is allowed into heaven and she is allowed all the privileges of any Angel except for the ArchAngels, but they later accept her into their circle. Her main function as Death is to be the horseman of the apocalypse and await that time to come.
> 
> Dee has a sister, the picture I had with the two girls is of her and her older sister, the older sister is weaker than her and even at a young age Dee command a lot of power. The two sisters, Dee and Ashley, and their mother, Persephanie, all have elements attached to their power. Persephanie since she is the angel of might has control over water, Ashley being the angel of music has control over sound and electricity, and Dee being the Angel of Death and destruction has control over fire.
> 
> ...



Again, we share some of the same principles (immortality, etc.).

Though, as for my characters, they'll be unleashing their full power at certain points in the story. They have rivals/former friends in the same age range in Fallen Heaven and enemies (again in the same age range) in Hell/Hades. There are of course much stronger people than they are, so they'll have to grow in strength as the story progresses.

As for Rena, she probably won't be showing her true power until the very end of the entire story. The Wings of Death isn't someone you want to piss off normally/early in the story since that'll cause too many early deaths. 

As for the mixing thing, that's usually something discouraged in my angel novel. In some areas of the world, Nephilims aren't fully accepted into society and such.

As for intimacy scenes...I think I have about a handful of those. One or two of which only go into detail (of course not THAT detailed lol).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 2, 2007)

Prince Leon said:


> Again, we share some of the same principles (immortality, etc.).
> 
> Though, as for my characters, they'll be unleashing their full power at certain points in the story. They have rivals/former friends in the same age range in Fallen Heaven and enemies (again in the same age range) in Hell/Hades. There are of course much stronger people than they are, so they'll have to grow in strength as the story progresses.
> 
> ...



With the exception of Dee, most everyone will be growing into their power over time. They will reveal their full power at certain points but what's full power in book one and whats full power in book five are different things. Like with Dee's mother she's got super strength. She can lift heavy objects, punch through things and the like.

But her magic powers are weaker than that of her two daughters naturally. The enemy that they're fighting, the main one anyway, is a half demon/ half angel named Charon. He's seeking to conquer Heaven and Hell. 

I actually plan on having the Devil make an appearance in the story along with several of the more well known angels. I never actually plan to have God speak in the story, but you will hear characters talk to him, just not hear a reply. And I will be having a little bit of a storyline with the four horsemen.

I have some trouble coming up with different little demons for them to fight from time to time. I just have a hard time coming up with little enemies. 

A funny little thing about the intimate scenes is that one of them is how a character discovers its powers. Persephanie breaks her husbands ribs while having sex and its not shown in detail but its talked about after the fact at a hospital.


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## Prince Leon (Jul 2, 2007)

Ribs breaking during sex....oowww. XD

Two of my main characters (actually the male and female lead; their names are Leon and Shion) will probably have the most intimate/sexual scenes in the story. During one of the scenes though, something happens to both of them which causes them to use/release power on an almost destructive level (at worse it'll cause some quaking). 

As for God and Satan..."God" doesn't really appear until the end of the first novel (heh heh...^__^). The ruler of Hell that I have can be called Satan/the Devil but I used another name for him.

Enemies...well, most of the conflicts are between those that I mentioned in the previous post. But there are lackeys, regular soldiers, demons (the really mutated ugly ones), and familiars that join in on the fights.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 2, 2007)

Prince Leon said:


> Ribs breaking during sex....oowww. XD
> 
> Two of my main characters (actually the male and female lead; their names are Leon and Shion) will probably have the most intimate/sexual scenes in the story. During one of the scenes though, something happens to both of them which causes them to use/release power on an almost destructive level (at worse it'll cause some quaking).
> 
> ...



Yeah the ribs breaking is meant to be comical and just her first show of power. Later on she's going to fall from high up and actually be forced to open her wings. 

The oldest daughter, I don't know what's going to happen when her romantic scene shows up...I know what the ramifications are going to be in the end though. Baby...

My enemies in the story include vampires, demons, zombies, other humans, ghosts and just mythical and supernatural creatures. So there is a lot to work with. I guess I just need to do better  research.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 2, 2007)

i think I got my zing back! I'll get to writing that scene soon. Breaking ribs during sex. Ouch, though  I might possibly have something similar but not for comical effect. Oh the disturbing places I will go.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 2, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> i think I got my zing back! I'll get to writing that scene soon. Breaking ribs during sex. Ouch, though  I might possibly have something similar but not for comical effect. Oh the disturbing places I will go.



I actually was just hoping to show her power and dominance through her strength. She's always been mighty in her words, but the angel of might is coming into her own power and the true physical strength she will possess.


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## Prince Leon (Jul 2, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> i think I got my zing back! I'll get to writing that scene soon. Breaking ribs during sex. Ouch, though  I might possibly have something similar but not for comical effect. Oh the disturbing places I will go.



I can only imagine what the hell you're thinking of doing.


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## The Pink Ninja (Jul 3, 2007)

Note too self: Comment on this


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## Lord Yu (Jul 3, 2007)

Note to self. Worst things you can do during on sex scene. 
1. Think of porn bloopers
2.Laugh at what you're writing.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 3, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Note to self. Worst things you can do during on sex scene.
> 1. Think of porn bloopers
> 2.Laugh at what you're writing.



I don't think  I will ever get as far into the sex stuff as to write anything coming near the level of pornography. I intend to be pretty cryptic in my descriptions of anything sexual and to avoid the matter when at all possible.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 3, 2007)

I could easily. I often struggle with the temptation turn parts of my story into something akin to an H-game.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 3, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I could easily. I often struggle with the temptation turn parts of my story into something akin to an H-game.



H-game? Hmm well don't even know what this.


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## Noah (Jul 3, 2007)

I straight refuse to work any sort of sex scene into any idea I have. Why? Three reasons:

First. I rarely find it appropriate for the type of stories I'm working on.
Second. I feel that, except in rare instances, sex really drives a plot forward.
Final. Any of my characters that would be involved in a sex scene worth writing out, would be insanely, and almost comically, violent towards their partner. 

Sex wouldn't fit into the story of my characters that wouldn't randomly punch their partner in the throat during the throes of passion. So they don't get any.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 3, 2007)

Red_Squirrel said:


> I straight refuse to work any sort of sex scene into any idea I have. Why? Three reasons:
> 
> First. I rarely find it appropriate for the type of stories I'm working on.
> Second. I feel that, except in rare instances, sex really drives a plot forward.
> ...



I asked this question out in the BH a while back and about what people thought about sex in stories, most of the people in there were for the idea. I'm not for it being very explicit.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 3, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> H-game? Hmm well don't even know what this.



Hentai game/Eroge. In fact when I started my novel I was playing a ton of Tsukihime.


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## Noah (Jul 4, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I asked this question out in the BH a while back and about what people thought about sex in stories, most of the people in there were for the idea. I'm not for it being very explicit.



I don't mind if a story eludes to it, but I don't find it necessary if it goes any further than confirming that said characters will have, or have had, sex.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 4, 2007)

I personally don't see a problem with it. As sex is an instinctual act core elements of a person's personality emerge during sexual acts. I think you can often find something interesting about a person in there sexual practices.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 4, 2007)

Red_Squirrel said:


> I don't mind if a story eludes to it, but I don't find it necessary if it goes any further than confirming that said characters will have, or have had, sex.



Well for all intents and purposes I could just elude to it, but I think that in eluding to something that was meant to drive plot and meant to show a growth in connection between two characters from the start of the series, and more of the action around them will be described than their own action. We're talking about two people having sex at what is seemingly the end of the world so things will be very active and the reader will not have a doubt there was sex, but what's happening around them should overshadow if not match the intensity of the sex.



Lord Yu said:


> I personally don't see a problem with it. As sex is an instinctual act core elements of a person's personality emerge during sexual acts. I think you can often find something interesting about a person in there sexual practices.



True, I have read books about writing for years now and one of the things that I have always picked up when they talk about sexual acts is that its important to keep the characters true if you do write sexual things. One of the main follies of sex in unprofessional literature is that they try to make the sex overshadow the character, as if we should care about the character because they're having sex...

Actually we should care about the _sex_ because of the _characters _having it.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 4, 2007)

I've honestly never read a book on writing.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 4, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I've honestly never read a book on writing.



They're a big help, they help me to put my ideas into a managable format and make some of the things I can't quiet work through easier. Also they give exercises to help you do things like write better dialog.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 4, 2007)

My purist pride won't let me touch things like that.


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## troublesum-chan (Jul 4, 2007)

:> i think writing should be raw.

It should come from you, not altered or boxed in by rules or "generally accepted constructs". It should be something you write not because you want everyone to like it, but something you write because you want to reach the few that will understand it and love it like you do.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 4, 2007)

That's the way I write.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 4, 2007)

troublesum-chan said:


> :> i think writing should be raw.
> 
> It should come from you, not altered or boxed in by rules or "generally accepted constructs". It should be something you write not because you want everyone to like it, but something you write because you want to reach the few that will understand it and love it like you do.



We're not talking about generally accepted constructs, we're talking about ways to learn and absorb the world around us in a way that makes that you can put the words on the page easier. Its like painting a picture of something you see, just because you're painting what you see doesn't mean that it doesn't come from within you.

And no one is trying to give rules for writing, perhaps the only universal rule is that there are no rules.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 5, 2007)

So the subject of humor. What would you say your humor style is? I tend to shift on the somewhat dry. Though recently I took a chance for cheap slapstick.


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## Freiza (Jul 5, 2007)

Hmmm, I've started about 3 different stories all 300+ in...can't kep mah brain under control.

The First one is basically my trial by error...i just kept throwing shit down...made no sense so im like rewriting it, and its not pretty 

second one is a little better need real life fact to get it rolling again...to bad i dont have enough time though....:cr

third one is 300 pages exactly...why? my life story didnt seem so interesting to write any more. >_<


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## Lord Yu (Jul 7, 2007)

I think I may be more suited to third person writing. Since I've always hated journaling. I'm also self-centered. So writing from different viewpoints was probably a bad idea.


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## The Thieving Queen (Jul 7, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I think I may be more suited to third person writing. Since I've always hated journaling. I'm also self-centered. So writing from different viewpoints was probably a bad idea.


I'm trying to write from the viewpoint of a seemingly autistic person for one of my stories, I can only give him so many emotions so it's a bit odd in some of his situations I'm making up for the story.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 7, 2007)

Soon I'll start the third person version and see how that works.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 7, 2007)

Cryogenic Blaze said:


> Hmmm, I've started about 3 different stories all 300+ in...can't kep mah brain under control.
> 
> The First one is basically my trial by error...i just kept throwing shit down...made no sense so im like rewriting it, and its not pretty
> 
> ...



Its hard for me to finish one story without going on to the next. You just have to let it come to you sometimes and that takes a while.



Lord Yu said:


> Soon I'll start the third person version and see how that works.



Have fun. I just finished the first in my series and I am starting the second in a little while here.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 8, 2007)

Back to the topic of humor. What's your style?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 8, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Back to the topic of humor. What's your style?



My humor style? I don't really have too much humor in my story, and what's there is usually dark or sarcastic. There are a few of the stories which will be more open to humor, the story involving the daughters of the main characters will be more humorous because of the age of the characters and the fact that I don't want to put them in too dark a place when they're not as experienced.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 8, 2007)

Mine is also dark. Perhaps dry, But I mentioned before I did delve a little into slapstick.(Via an exploding head) I like to go for humor whenever I find a chance. PArt of the trouble of converting from first to third is retaining the humor I laid down.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 8, 2007)

Slapstick's too hard to write, I usually just stick bits and pieces of humor here and there. I try to avoid letting it get too funny. I think that in some ways I am starting to get better at drama which is good for me because its what I am going for.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 8, 2007)

I could fit that one joke in because all the torture in that chapter.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 9, 2007)

Here's a little piece I just finished up for anyone who wants to check it out: 


*Spoiler*: __ 



            Back when I was in high school you could find one  twenty-four hour Starbucks in a city the size of Houston. Only a little over a decade later you could find five in this city alone. It was just starting to get dark out and a misty drizzle was setting in. Autumn had taken its hold on Houston and with each night it got colder. Tonight was probably the first time it dipped into the sixties. 

As I clasped my hands around cup filled with the Cinnamon Dolce Latte the steam warmed my face. A man in a black fedora was just on the other side of the large plate glass window gathering napkins from the small counter that held the little sugar packets and other supplies like that. He turned away from the counter carrying his drink and came back outside. 

His long coat barely escaped being caught in the door and he walked over sitting the napkins down, I took a deep breath. I could smell the cinnamon steam flowing up. My eyes fell on the glass for a second and then I stared back up at him, his deep blue eyes were focused on me intently. I smiled slightly despite what I was about to say, “Father, I’m starting to think that I’m having a crisis of faith.”

“Why do you feel that way,” he pushed the napkins towards me gently with a slight smile.

“It’s this feeling like all of the being there for everyone else, all of the being righteous is draining me, its taking its toll,” I tried to take a drink from my cup but the drink was still too hot, “What would God want with the unrighteous?”

“It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick...but go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but the sinners,” he spoke the words as if they just flowed out of him without thought or hesitation.

I thought for a brief second, “The book of Matthew, right?”

He nodded and then took a drink from his cup, a little of it was caught in the edge of his beard when he let the cup back down onto the table. “You’ve strived your hardest to be merciful and righteous,” he said right before he wiped his mouth, “If God thought that we could do this on our own he wouldn’t have sent the prophets, he wouldn’t have sent his only son.”

“I know you’re right,” I had slight smile now, “But what am I supposed to do to get better?”

“Aristotle would say that if you start doing the right thing, voluntarily to the right people and at the right time it will become part of you…that’s how you become a virtuous person,” said the man in the fedora.

I closed my eyes and spoke in slightly sarcastic tone, “Hm but what would you say I should do, Father?”

He laughed slightly, “You should pray, ask God for the strength to do what you know needs to be done.”

I took a bigger drink than I had before and the rain was picking up now. Water ran off of the top of the covered table on all sides of us now, “I just feel so lost.”

With a glance up at the rain he spoke, “You might not feel like it, but you’re the glue that holds them together, your family…you’re friends, you’re a very important part of the social group you’re in.”

“Things aren’t how they seem,” I said.

He placed his hand down on my arm, his fingers were cold, “When did you start feeling like this?” 

“Well…” I glanced down  at my lap as if the answer were there, “Recently I have noticed that Justin’s been kind of distanced from what he does,” I paused. “He used to talk about how he was ‘doing the Lord’s work’, he used to think that he was on a mission from God.” I straightened myself in the chair, “Earlier tonight he told me that he could die if he wanted to, as if God wouldn’t let him or something.”

“I see,” he said.

“I mean he is so distant, both spiritually and emotionally. I don’t think I can pull him out without going in myself…” I said.

The man in the fedora ran his hand down the side of his face, through his beard, “I don’t understand,” he paused, “how’d you come to that conclusion?” 

“Well he’s not enthusiastic about doing the right thing, he told Megan what we did ‘didn’t make a difference’ a little while ago, she nearly hit him,” I sipped the coffee; it was the only way to keep warm at this point. 

The man in the fedora nodded, “He actually talked to me about that, I found it a little odd.”

“Yeah and with the girls he seems to be somewhere else, Ashley even asked me about it,” I cleared my throat. “And with me…” I realized what I was about to do and stopped there. 

The Priest urged me on, “What is it?”

I could feel my cheeks burning a little hotter now, as if they were filled with red heat, “It’s just that he doesn’t touch me like he used to, he kisses me like its just something required of him…and we haven’t had…you know in four months.” Now I felt like I had divulged too much. 

“I understand…” he said.

“It’s just I was kind of nervous about mentioning all of that in front of you,” I leaned forward some, “I mean I know you’ve got your whole ‘operation’ on lock down and all…”

“I don’t think I’ve ever heard it referred to as my ‘situation’ before,” he said. “But are you concerned that there might be another woman?” 
              “No!” I think that I was slightly offended at first, “Sorry about that.”
              “It’s alright, I was just asking the questions that would be on the mind of a normal woman,” he said.

But I wasn’t really normal now was I? “I’m not worried about that in the least, I am worried that he’s losing the capability to love, and by trying to pull him back from there, I’m going in too.”

“This job isn’t pretty, there’s little room left for optimism and we don’t win very many or very big when we do,” said the Priest.

I took big drink from my cup now, it had cooled a lot, “Well what keeps you doing it then?”

“When I first became a priest I was just trying to help people, but when I got into the Order of Saint Michael and started fighting I figured it would be my life’s work…” he started.

“What happened?” I asked.

“I saved this woman one day, and I never told your husband or anyone else all of this, but she was the most gorgeous thing I’d ever seen, like I was looking at a small part of God himself. She had the bluest eyes, dark brown hair with white blonde streaks that somehow just seemed to fit, and her skin was flawless and white like snow…” he took a long pause here and pulled his trench coat up around himself. I was listening intently.

Then he started again, “Coincidentally her name was Mary, and after a year of writing each other, talking on the phone and sometimes meeting up with her when I was near I realized that I was in love. I was ready to put my vows aside for her, I was ready to quit the priesthood. But when I went to tell her of this, a demon attacked and it managed to skewer her through. It was a coincidence, your husband had chased the thing for a half a mile, and it just happened that where they fought happened to be the place where she lived, it also just happened that it used her to try and reason with Justin, I put it down quick, only to find out she had been mortally wounded by its barb tail…we shared one kiss before she was gone.”

I glared down at the table, “Wow, I just…wow.” It was raining harder now, a hard driving rain.

“Persephanie, I will tell you this,” he started. “Things will get dark, they will get very dark, but its when the world around us gets dark that we tend to shine the brightest…” he said.

“But you…you still quit the priesthood, that wasn’t even that long after we met you,” she said.

“I quit because I failed,” he said, “But I still fight with the Order of Saint Michael,” he stood up straightening his hat on his head. I could see the long brown hair flowing out from underneath the fedora now. 

I glanced up at him, “But do you fight for Love, or because of revenge?” I asked.

“That is hard to tell,” he paused and turned away, “Maybe I’ll give you an answer someday.” He was gone off into the parking lot where our cars were parked next to each other. 

Our cars were such a contrast, my Porsche, only three years old; then next to it was his car, a 1967 Chevy Impala, large and boxy with that heavy frame, a resilient car that was made to be in for the long haul.  
              I gathered my napkins around the still warm cup and grabbed the newspaper off the adjacent table putting it over my head to block the rain and ran to my car.


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## Batman (Jul 18, 2007)

First Draft Complete. I'm doing my celebratory dance as I type this!! ^_^


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## Lord Yu (Jul 18, 2007)

Twisted sadomasochistic relationships are fun.


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## crazymtf (Jul 23, 2007)

Oh didn't see this thread till now. Well I've been writing stories, complete or not, for awhile now. Wrote one about three friends, two older boys *18-19* and a younger brother getting caught up in killing and such. Go into hide away and then join another gang of people who kill for money. It's kinda weird but it was my first story in 7th-8th grade. 

Then 8th grade into the summer i wrote a book about elemental users. It was a fun book since basically all logic was off and fight scenes were fun to do. It was suppose to be two parts but i only got one book done. 

Now 8th grade - 11th grade i began a series of books. A group of four boys working for a organization to stop creatures called Polysters. It's a cool little story but i can't really explain it until i get into it. But this series is gonna be 5 books. I finished my first book which was averaging about 110,000 words, 55 chapters, not sure how many pages exactly. Now I'm writing book 2 since i picked it up again. Up to chapter 12 at the moment. 

I also wrote two separate books during this year. I only got up to chapter 4 in each but that's because i went back to my series. First book is about a man, living his life all alone. One day is picked up and learns he was a experiment. He now lives exactly what he was meant to be, a experiment. 

The other one is a story that takes place after the apocalypse. Demons are now living amongst humans and they are learning to live together. Hatred is on both ends but they soon learn how to be civil, at least for awhile. Riven is hunter *There's a special name but it's a cool name i don't want to give away* who does jobs for humans and demons as long as it's paying. 

*Well that's all for now.* Glad to see there's alot of guys trying to make novels ^_^ PM me if any question or you need me to look at chapters to get some opinions, i'll be glad to do it


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 31, 2007)

crazymtf said:


> Oh didn't see this thread till now. Well I've been writing stories, complete or not, for awhile now. Wrote one about three friends, two older boys *18-19* and a younger brother getting caught up in killing and such. Go into hide away and then join another gang of people who kill for money. It's kinda weird but it was my first story in 7th-8th grade.
> 
> Then 8th grade into the summer i wrote a book about elemental users. It was a fun book since basically all logic was off and fight scenes were fun to do. It was suppose to be two parts but i only got one book done.
> 
> ...



AI didn't see you had posted! All of that sounds pretty cool, I started writing around the same time you did it seems. And you last story sounds kind of like mine.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 31, 2007)

I started writing in the 4th grade. I even had my own series. Ahh duck brothers...


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## Noah (Jul 31, 2007)

I finally figured out why I can come up with a detailed story, but never get it out. First, I have to be able to see everything in my mind. If I'm writing about someone in a school, I have to see every single room and locker before I can even write about it.
The second problem is the goddamn first sentence. If could just get the first two or three sentences out, I don't think I'd ever stop writing. My third problem is that I have no idea who my target audience is.

On a somewhat related note, can anyone think of a good idea why a lower middle-class white end up drinking a fair amount of blood in an ivy league environment? Every idea I have screams out B-horror movie plotline.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 1, 2007)

Make them completely utterly and hopelessly insane.

I've started my 3rd person version. I'm going to be redoing various chapters in 3rd out of sequence then slinging them together. Its the only method my ADD will allow.


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## Batman (Aug 1, 2007)

Is it just me or has editing taken over your life as well. It's never good enough and people that I trust can't read it fast enough.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 1, 2007)

It's just you. I rarely edit at all. I tend to only go back when something stands out as being reeeeally stupid.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 1, 2007)

Editing is a good thing to a point...I mean that you need to go back and edit at least *some *in anything you right to make sense and to make sure that everything is something the characters would do.


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## Batman (Aug 1, 2007)

I'm to much of a perfectionist sometimes. It could always be better imo, so i gotta hand it off to other people to see if it's readable and likable.

But I'm kickin my ass over this second draft. good times.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 2, 2007)

I just wanted to alert everyone that Jessica started a forum for writers, artists and just people who want to chat in general. Here's the link, this is the last I will bring it up here.


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## Sand Man Stan (Aug 2, 2007)

Hi everyone, I'm a relatively new poster here, and saw the link for this thread in *Lord Yu*'s sig. Some good stuff in here.

Anyway, I was wondering if any of you know a place where you can publish your own books? Before I submit anything to a publisher, I'd like to see what my book would look like in hardback form.


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## Hat Hair (Aug 7, 2007)

Well, I suppose I might as well drop my hat in, too. Honestly I'm a bit surprised that there are so many people interested in writing as a career/hobby, but it's always nice to see more writers out there, trying to accomplish the same.

I didn't really start writing seriously until I got into college and even then it has taken me this long to actually finish a story that is on its third revision four years later, although to be fair I had been working on multiple ideas at once, which I think detracted a lot from what I was trying to accomplish as a storyteller. It's an interesting process to go from regurgitating bad fan fiction ideas to half-baked quasi-original concepts to bonafide world building and be able to track where everything came from. When I was in elementary school I used to write out stories on my desk or rather I would make a bunch of scriggly lines to represent the movement and emotions of the characters in the scenes that I was playing out in my head and yet here I am with absolute confidence I can get anything I want published when I choose to do so. And yet the journey has just began. That's life, I suppose.



Red_Squirrel said:


> I finally figured out why I can come up with a detailed story, but never get it out. First, I have to be able to see everything in my mind. If I'm writing about someone in a school, I have to see every single room and locker before I can even write about it.
> The second problem is the goddamn first sentence. If could just get the first two or three sentences out, I don't think I'd ever stop writing. My third problem is that I have no idea who my target audience is.
> 
> On a somewhat related note, can anyone think of a good idea why a lower middle-class white end up drinking a fair amount of blood in an ivy league environment? Every idea I have screams out B-horror movie plotline.



One of the first unfortunate truths that I learned as a writer is that you are going to have to edit your work whether you choose to do so or if a publisher requires such; however that does make it easier to write without thinking, which I think is a good way to get dialogue out of the way, at the very least. Simplistic descriptions of places or monuments can be changed later, but what should matter most is telling the story. Then you can edit and figure everything out, such as the target audience, etc. 

Re: your story idea -- If that's what it sounds like, why not write it as what it is ? There's really nothing that says that it will end up a B-horror movie beyond your own writing ability. Also, it doesn't have to be the main event of your story especially if it is a serial.




Sand Man Stan said:


> Hi everyone, I'm a relatively new poster here, and saw the link for this thread in *Lord Yu*'s sig. Some good stuff in here.
> 
> Anyway, I was wondering if any of you know a place where you can publish your own books? Before I submit anything to a publisher, I'd like to see what my book would look like in hardback form.



Not necessarily sure if this is what you are looking, but it seems to be favored by most wannabes:


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## FanB0y (Aug 7, 2007)

I am also an aspiring writer. The biggest problem that I encounter is lack of motivation. I could come up with some stories in my head but I'm just too lazy to write it all down. I have different stories and plots floating in my head and I want to turn them into written words but I'm just not motivated enough.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 7, 2007)

You can delete your own post. Just hit edit then delete. Writing from third I think I can definitely accomplish alot more in my story. But I still think it could be very fun if I improved the first person version.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 8, 2007)

I actually have someone to read my stories now and she gives me great feed back. I love her for it!


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## Barinax (Aug 8, 2007)

I don't have that much ideas in my head. I only have a weird one, about a girl finding herself in another dimension and falling in love with her late boyfriend's dimensional variant. Which is sorta cheesy. >________>


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## Starpelt (Aug 10, 2007)

I am a currently working on my first novel mostly I have just written poetry before and this is the first real book I will be writing I hope it turns out well with all the work I am putting into it


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 11, 2007)

I have written so much this past week...fifty pages...it was like I was having a massive inspiration explosion!


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## Lord Yu (Aug 11, 2007)

I've had slowed production as of late. I recently started planning a side of the story that is going to be exclusive to the third person version.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 11, 2007)

I've sped up and actually am pretty happy with what I am working on now. I have been posting snippets on that other forum and getting feedback, I've been editing a lot too and just reading over my stuff, which I never used to do


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## Dream Brother (Aug 12, 2007)

I've been thinking of writing one for a long time now.

The problem is not my writing style -- I feel that I've polished it more than enough at the moment -- but actually coming up with a core story. I've taken to writing ideas down in a small notebook I keep around me when I think of them, but I still only have fragments rather than a core to build around. Hard to think of a good foundation to build on for a plot.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 12, 2007)

Dream Brother said:


> I've been thinking of writing one for a long time now.
> 
> The problem is not my writing style -- I feel that I've polished it more than enough at the moment -- but actually coming up with a core story. I've taken to writing ideas down in a small notebook I keep around me when I think of them, but I still only have fragments rather than a core to build around. Hard to think of a good foundation to build on for a plot.



The way I do it is I build one main core with smaller stories around it. Like all of the stories will have one core focus, but because its a series the stories will be be only about one set of events relating to that core. Think of a bicycle tire, the center where it all meets is the core. 

Each little section created by a spoke is like a different story, and the core is the core of them all.


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## Robotkiller (Aug 12, 2007)

So, tell me fellows, when did you first realize that you wanted to write?


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## Lord Yu (Aug 12, 2007)

Like second grade. I used to write stories and sell them.


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## Tyrael (Aug 12, 2007)

I wanted to be an author when I was something like 10-ish then decided I didn't. Now I do again.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 12, 2007)

Before I attempted my novel. I worked on video game stories with my friends.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 12, 2007)

I've always written stories in one form or another, but then I came across some of the Zelda Fan fiction by Juliet Singleton and I was hooked, I wanted to write then.


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## Tyrael (Aug 12, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Before I attempted my novel. I worked on video game stories with my friends.



Do you mean working on a theoretical video game or did you have to take into account limitations of a amateur/professional production team?


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## Lord Yu (Aug 12, 2007)

Theoretical video game. Didn't have any tech folks nor equipment.


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## Tyrael (Aug 12, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Theoretical video game. Didn't have any tech folks nor equipment.



Fair doos, I suppose thats the beauty of writing of almost every other entertainment media. You do whatever the hell you want.


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## Dream Brother (Aug 12, 2007)

Viral said:


> So, tell me fellows, when did you first realize that you wanted to write?



I've _always_ loved to write, even when I didn't quite know why, when I was a kid -- but I've also always told myself that I would never be good enough to do it on a professional level. I've only recently gotten over that.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 12, 2007)

An irresponsible orgy of violence, sex, and somewhat dry comedy. That is my aim.


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## Robotkiller (Aug 12, 2007)

Bah, all of you guys knew writing was your passion since you were wee lads. When I was in 2nd grade, through the time when I left middle school I hated to write.

But I attribute this to the fact that I had never done any creative writing work, my writings has always been forced, or for a test. And I think we all know that nothing good comes from forcing yourself to put ideas you don't want to think about onto paper.

I think I realized that I wanted to write when I started high school, we had many creative writing assignments in my advanced English classes and I realized I had a flare for storytelling. I suppose it was a gradual process, but I've been writing steadily over the last four or so years.

I think I've finally refined my style enough to the point where I could put pen to paper and come up with something worth selling....all I need is the story (Which I've been formulating in my head for months).


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## Lord Yu (Aug 12, 2007)

Funny thing is I've always had a problem writing papers. My writing came out of my love for cartoons and video games.


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## Batman (Aug 12, 2007)

I'm a story addict, plus i'm overly critical of everything i watch/read and that constant voice inside my head screaming this sucks, i can do better, or this is great, I have ideas too found their grounding in novelization.

Plus i'm ok with a sketchbook and a pencil so i can conceptualize my work to some degree, but my real training went towards the words.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 12, 2007)

Haven't seen you in a while Batman, where you been?


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## Pale (Aug 14, 2007)

My poison would be phylosophical tragedies.  Like some of Shakespears work.  Though not in poem or sonnet form.  The pace is about an hour to half a page.  How about you guys?


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## Dream Brother (Aug 14, 2007)

Anyone up for posting extracts of what they're working on? 

I would, but I haven't actually got anything to post yet, sadly enough.


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## Batman (Aug 14, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Haven't seen you in a while Batman, where you been?



around the anime section. I've been engrossed in the recent lineup of amazing shows.


Plus I've been fighting off the curse of the adverb. While I'm still trimming the fat from the story I'm working on. At the moment i'm concentrating of weeding out all of the 'ly' words that tend to be a bit unnecessary, and as many people put it, the mark of a novice.  I'm tying my best to give way too much, so i can at least say that i put some effort into it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 15, 2007)

Pale said:


> My poison would be phylosophical tragedies.  Like some of Shakespears work.  Though not in poem or sonnet form.  The pace is about an hour to half a page.  How about you guys?



I vary, I have written up to 20 or thirty pages a day...a few weeks ago I did fifty. I am not sure what to compare my work too, but I did post some of it here one time and no one really read it. 



Batman said:


> around the anime section. I've been engrossed in the recent lineup of amazing shows.
> 
> 
> Plus I've been fighting off the curse of the adverb. While I'm still trimming the fat from the story I'm working on. At the moment i'm concentrating of weeding out all of the 'ly' words that tend to be a bit unnecessary, and as many people put it, the mark of a novice.  I'm tying my best to give way too much, so i can at least say that i put some effort into it.



Not sure if I would trust that they are always bad, just make sure to only use them when you need to and to have some alternatives to them there too.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 15, 2007)

I have 5 pages of this third person version. After I've done the 3rd person version it's gonna seem like a whole new story. So much to change.


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## Solar Bankai (Aug 15, 2007)

Would anyone be able to check this for me:Index

Its the prologue to a book that I am writing, but I want to get a few opinions from people, to see what I could improve on


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## ЯƎWO⅃ᖷ (Aug 15, 2007)

So I'm worried this might just be me, but I lose interest in my stories really easily. I've been working on one since I was about thirteen (I'm nineteen now), and just this summer I decided to quit because I'm not into that genre now. Are any of you guys like that?


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## Lord Yu (Aug 15, 2007)

I don't bend to certain genres. I make sure my book is always to my taste, which fortunately has kept consistent throughout the process.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 15, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I don't bend to certain genres. I make sure my book is always to my taste, which fortunately has kept consistent throughout the process.



Even then...if you are writing something its usually going to fall into some genre, even if slightly. It would be nearly impossible not to.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 15, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Even then...if you are writing something its usually going to fall into some genre, even if slightly. It would be nearly impossible not to.



What I'm saying. Is I'm not thinking in terms of genre. I think in terms of me.


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## Batman (Aug 15, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> What I'm saying. Is I'm not thinking in terms of genre. I think in terms of me.



Always the best approach.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 15, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> What I'm saying. Is I'm not thinking in terms of genre. I think in terms of me.



Well I like to write what I would want to read but I like to stay true to what I am writing too. I'm not sure how to describe the story I am doing...its one of those things that when I am doing it I really can't tell the genre, I see all of the different elements coming together and I really couldn't tell you exactly what they fit together to make.

One friend has referred to it as Sci-Fi, she read the whole first novella. I think I like that, although even that term rubs me the wrong way when it comes to the religious overtones in the story.


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## Trov (Aug 16, 2007)

Aspiring writer here, I've recently discovered my true calling.(Not sure if recent is the right word.) Well, I was creating stories before I knew I wanted to create stories. Back when I was working on my programming so that I could become a Game Designer. Even though I'm working on a book, I really want to work on my own animated show ya know. But I figure book writing isn't so bad. I think my writing could use a little work, but I know my story making is pretty solid and still improving.

I currently have two short stories done, I'm trying to get a site up to display the stores, well, I do have a website, but I want to work on the interface. a bit more, but I never have the time.

Anyways, I have alot of ideas for books, probably over ten. But I'm only really working on 4 of them religously. One of them being my baby project I've been working on since highschool.

Anyways, glad to see that there are others who are striving for the same goal, or atleast a similar one.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 17, 2007)

I still often think of my story like a game. Even to the point of imagining boss battles and stuff.

I still even name moves and such. Of course the names of the techniques don't appear unless most relevant.


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## Einstein (Aug 17, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I still often think of my story like a game. Even to the point of imagining boss battles and stuff.
> 
> I still even name moves and such. Of course the names of the techniques don't appear unless most relevant.


Same here, pretty much. Then I remember that if I have people fight and kill each other, some crapshoot justice system has to appear and make a huge fiasco out of it, so I try to avoid it.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 17, 2007)

The violence in my story tends to be out of reach of local law enforcement.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 17, 2007)

Trov said:


> Aspiring writer here, I've recently discovered my true calling.(Not sure if recent is the right word.) Well, I was creating stories before I knew I wanted to create stories. Back when I was working on my programming so that I could become a Game Designer. Even though I'm working on a book, I really want to work on my own animated show ya know. But I figure book writing isn't so bad. I think my writing could use a little work, but I know my story making is pretty solid and still improving.
> 
> I currently have two short stories done, I'm trying to get a site up to display the stores, well, I do have a website, but I want to work on the interface. a bit more, but I never have the time.
> 
> ...



Well welcome to the forums! I hope that something you find here at least helps you write! 



Lord Yu said:


> I still often think of my story like a game. Even to the point of imagining boss battles and stuff.
> 
> I still even name moves and such. Of course the names of the techniques don't appear unless most relevant.



I can't bring myself to do that, really the idea of it makes me think anything I write will be taken as a joke. I sometimes envision my stuff as a movie, but as a medium some stuff in a game will be accepted where some stuff in a book will not.



Judge Monday said:


> Same here, pretty much. Then I remember that if I have people fight and kill each other, some crapshoot justice system has to appear and make a huge fiasco out of it, so I try to avoid it.



Its just part of making things seem real, you could always go to a different time period where it would be harder to tell someone had been killed or you could just make up your own lawless world


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## Einstein (Aug 19, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Its just part of making things seem real, you could always go to a different time period where it would be harder to tell someone had been killed or you could just make up your own lawless world


Yeah, true. But the lawless world seems so surreal, I'm afraid people will read it and say "WTF? He just killed a dude and no one's there to catch him?" or whatnot.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 19, 2007)

I love the surreal.


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## Einstein (Aug 19, 2007)

That's good, cause when I write, I know at least one person'll enjoy it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 20, 2007)

Judge Monday said:


> Yeah, true. But the lawless world seems so surreal, I'm afraid people will read it and say "WTF? He just killed a dude and no one's there to catch him?" or whatnot.



Well not always, the old West was pretty lawless and that's kind of the type of thing I was telling you about. My story actually takes place in the near future, but since most of the time they are hunting demons there really isn't any police to come get them for killing stuff.

Plus the demons vanish when killed. 

I actually just finished my second story last night, I am so excited and happy. I get to start a new one!


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 21, 2007)

Bump! 

My whole story of how I decided I want to be a writer! 

I was kind of in a hurry when I wrote this thread up, but the idea came to me from another thread on another forum. Basically the thing is this. I always wanted to be an artist up until I was about ten years old or so. I used to spend all of my time drawing or dreaming about drawing. I didn't really know about writing much until I read some stories off the internet in Junior High that were written by this girl named Juliet Singleton. I actually know her personally as she has become sort of an Internet celebrity, even now she has a cult following. 

Anyway, I wrote a story for her site, and she really enjoyed it. Well my one part story turned into three parts and ended up maxing out at about 200 pages. It was all a Zelda fan fic and it was pretty crudely done. Anyway from there I moved on to stuff with my own characters, based on people I knew or just people I made up. 

I really liked it but I kept some of those fan fiction elements. 

Then like in the second year of high school I stopped all things fan fiction and started with just characters from my head. It was hard starting without a known world at first. Well the first time I got a real solid story off the ground it was my second year of high school and it was a story about FBI agents. Well the day I started writing it was September 10, 2001. 

The next day we all know what happened. Well that changed my whole story and I adapted to include a lot of stuff about counter terrorism, or as much as I knew about that sort of thing back then.

Over the years I have had a lot of influences on my writing, some authors that have really gotten to me were S.D. Perry and Palunuck (the author of Fight Club). I love how they write and I try to strive to make my stuff a little bit more unique sounding and to not go for the mundane. If something needs to be said, instead of being politically correct, I just write it. 

I want to be able to do that more, not for shock value, but just to try and be as real as I can and true to my characters.


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## Einstein (Aug 24, 2007)

Do you base more of your characters off of people you made up or people you know?


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## Lord Yu (Aug 24, 2007)

People I made up. I'd rather not think of the people in my daily life.


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## Einstein (Aug 24, 2007)

Same here. It's not that I'd rather not think about them, I just don't really see them as the kinds of people that belong in my stuff.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 24, 2007)

Judge Monday said:


> Do you base more of your characters off of people you made up or people you know?



I base them off of the people I know, some of the people on this forum have actually had a character modeled after them, Eddy Sensei, Iria, Jessica to name a few and most of the other characters are either based directly on a person or a mixture of people.


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## Einstein (Aug 24, 2007)

For my NF story I promised C9 I would write (till the threadgot deleted mysteriously), I of course had to base the characters off of people I knew i.e. the NF members. Since the story is gone, I don't know if I should just forget about all of the characters, even the ones I haven't used, or keep them for future use.


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## Trov (Aug 24, 2007)

I tend to create my own characters from scratch. However, I'm sure I based one or two characters on people I know, including myself.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 24, 2007)

I actually think that its a lot harder to write accurately about characters that are type of people you have never known, so when I have to make up a character not based on someone I try to look at examples of what this type of person might do.


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## Nathan (Aug 27, 2007)

I've had a story in my head for awhile, actually for the last year or so, but I just can't sit and write it down. I've wrote the first few chapters but then I scrap them since I didn't like how it turned out. x.x I keep trying though!


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## Robotkiller (Aug 27, 2007)

^
The first page is always the hardest.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 27, 2007)

I've slowed to a crawl with my 3rd person version. So many ideas keep flooding in yet I can't get them out. Well more accurately I probably could get them out but they'd be poorly written. I'm trying to maintain half decent quality and not have repetition everywhere.


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## MitsukiShiroi (Aug 27, 2007)

Out of curiosity, is anyone planning to tackle Nano?


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## Lord Yu (Aug 27, 2007)

Nano? question mark


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## MitsukiShiroi (Aug 27, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Nano? question mark



 xD


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## Pan-on (Aug 27, 2007)

just found this thread, very interesting.

I always sort of had it in the back of my mind that i wanted to write stories but during high school i also became interested in games design. I decided I would go to university and study it but then during my last year I randomly decided i wanted to be an author so now im going to university to study literature (and eventually creative writing) in a couple of weeks. I do enjoy writing and id love to do it more but even if i come up with a good idea I have difficulty planning and i just end up sitting thinking about it for long periods of time and not getting anything done, eventually forgetting any idea i had. Anyway any tips would be appreciated thanks.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 27, 2007)

MitsukiShiroi said:


> xD



I forgot about that XD Probably not.


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## MitsukiShiroi (Aug 27, 2007)

Anonx said:


> just found this thread, very interesting.
> 
> I always sort of had it in the back of my mind that i wanted to write stories but during high school i also became interested in games design. I decided I would go to university and study it but then during my last year I randomly decided i wanted to be an author so now im going to university to study literature (and eventually creative writing) in a couple of weeks. I do enjoy writing and id love to do it more but even if i come up with a good idea I have difficulty planning and i just end up sitting thinking about it for long periods of time and not getting anything done, eventually forgetting any idea i had. Anyway any tips would be appreciated thanks.



Well, I don't sit and plan, I'm more of a conventional planner, haha. Usually, I get scenes in my head throughout several days, like before going to bed, eating dinner, doing the dishes, riding my bike. Then I go back home and puzzle those things together. Like on the current novel I'm working with, I got a scene of somewhere in the middle of everything and jolted it down and it just worked from there on.

Just try and let your inspiration flow. =p



Lord Yu said:


> I forgot about that XD Probably not.



That's too bad XD Nano always gets me worked up and it's a great way to start a new project.


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## KitsuneAsika (Aug 27, 2007)

I've been stalking this page since it was on page 10. Anyways, I'm definitely doing NaNo. I've got the perfect plot thought up too...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 27, 2007)

MitsukiShiroi said:


> Out of curiosity, is anyone planning to tackle Nano?



No need to, I write on my own time, knowing me I will spend the whole month with no inspiration and come December I will write the best story ever.

Besides I wrote a story in like three weeks a while back.


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## MitsukiShiroi (Aug 27, 2007)

KitsuneAsika said:


> I've been stalking this page since it was on page 10. Anyways, I'm definitely doing NaNo. I've got the perfect plot thought up too...



I know you from LJ, right? XD



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> No need to, I write on my own time, knowing me I will spend the whole month with no inspiration and come December I will write the best story ever.
> 
> Besides I wrote a story in like three weeks a while back.



Ah, I see.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 27, 2007)

MitsukiShiroi said:


> I know you from LJ, right? XD
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, I see.




I don't like writing on time constraints and then again I believe that every once in a while you have to set a deadline to help things move along.


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## Einstein (Aug 28, 2007)

I actually like having time restraints, because I'm a slight procrastinator. The reason I say slight is because, if you don't give me a date when it's do, I'll probably never finish it. If you give me deadline, I'll most likely get to work and be done by that day (usually before). I might do NaNo, because I'm at a loss for prompts anyway and I need to get back in the writing "buisness".


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## Barinax (Aug 28, 2007)

I'm also a procrastinator. All my personal projects, including writing and videos and stuff, I never finish them. I finish all my school stuff though, mainly because  they give me deadlines. Though I wait until the due date is in a week and panic.

I wish I had more wiriting assignments in English last year. I really, really wanted that. The other English class probably had more chances, probably because more experience as a teacher I guess.


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## Einstein (Aug 28, 2007)

I realyl hate the shitty assignments they give me in English class. The "Where do you want to go in life...", the "If you woke up in one morning and you could fly...", or whatever. All they need to do is say "Two men, in the middle of the desert, with a gun" (which they'll never say) and I'll be set. I don't like writing about ME, I like writing about fictional characters.


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## KitsuneAsika (Aug 28, 2007)

MitsukiShiroi said:


> I know you from LJ, right? XD
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, I see.




Yeah, you do. ^_^


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 28, 2007)

Elwood said:


> I realyl hate the shitty assignments they give me in English class. The "Where do you want to go in life...", the "If you woke up in one morning and you could fly...", or whatever. All they need to do is say "Two men, in the middle of the desert, with a gun" (which they'll never say) and I'll be set. I don't like writing about ME, I like writing about fictional characters.



Don't expect things to get better in all actuality. You have to think about the fact that they don't care about developing anything creative in schools these days for the most part, they are either about passing a test or teaching a skill for something that can earn money.


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## Einstein (Aug 28, 2007)

So that whole "I want you to be creative! I want you to be imaginitave!!" stuff they say is a load of BS? That figures, sadly. And with the major censoring they put work under, period, also makes no room for creativity. Especially since I am not a person you'd want to write children's books. Most of my writing includes AT LEAST graphic language. At most, everyone dies in the most gory way possible. And writing that stuff gets me sent to the counselor's office, so I've got to fruiten up my work (which turns it into mush that even makes me sick when I read it), and I'd prefer to just not go to English class at all.

But I have to, because I want a job.


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## MitsukiShiroi (Aug 29, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I don't like writing on time constraints and then again I believe that every once in a while you have to set a deadline to help things move along.



Time constraints are pretty nice if you're like me and procrastinate the hell out of it. Plus, it brings you along pretty well. :3



KitsuneAsika said:


> Yeah, you do. ^_^



xD


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 29, 2007)

MitsukiShiroi said:


> Time constraints are pretty nice if you're like me and procrastinate the hell out of it. Plus, it brings you along pretty well. :3
> 
> 
> 
> xD



I actually am kind of a procrastinator too, I'm glad to see you in here, you should  talk to me more often


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## MitsukiShiroi (Aug 30, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I actually am kind of a procrastinator too, I'm glad to see you in here, you should  talk to me more often



I'm a very anti-social person. =p


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## Prince Leon (Aug 30, 2007)

I have about four novels going on at the moment. I really need to stick with one but characters keep on calling out to me from all four.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 30, 2007)

My novel practically is four at once. So I've eliminated that problem.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 30, 2007)

MitsukiShiroi said:


> I'm a very anti-social person. =p


 
We need to get you out of that habit.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 30, 2007)

I'm quite anti-social myself. I'm the crazy guy who stands by himself having a conversation with people in his head in public. I can never really uphold a proper conversation.


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## jakey3 (Aug 30, 2007)

I'm writing a few novels myself im done book 1# and 2#. and im working on three


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 31, 2007)

I've decided that I want my latest story to be somewhat of a Metal Gear Solid parody of sorts...not a parody but just written in the style of MGS. It's about this Secret Service Agent who is working her first day when the President gets assassinated and she goes out to figure out who did it...the rest is going to be filled with conspiracy, double cross and secret organizations.


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## confusion the waitress (Sep 1, 2007)

Well. I read through this entire thread, and now I'm wondering if one (or more) of you guys would be so kind as to lend a bit of a hand to a fellow aspiring novelist (me) who's on the brink of overcoming a _seven year case _of writer's block. I say "on the brink" because I've got everything I need to start this book except for some, er, _very minor_ plot points. (For "very minor," read "staggeringly important.")

If you've got a creative mind full of ideas and don't mind lending me a few, click below. Oh, and if I ever get published, I'll thank you on my "Acknowledgements" page. (Because, you know, it totally _is_ going to get published... heh heh... yeah...)


*Spoiler*: __ 



All right, I'll try to keep this short, but... I'm usually really bad at doing that...

The setting is an underground island city. No one has been to the surface in hundreds of years. One day, two of the characters find a young girl on the brink of death and bring her to the city for treatment. The young girl, by the way, has wings, which means she came from... Somewhere Else.

Now, this girl is the catalyst that will get the characters to try and find a way to the surface, so she kind of has to be in the story no matter what. But... _why _is she there? Here's the idea I came up with.

She's looking for her half brother, who has been living in the underground city for many years, hiding his wings and being an angsty loner and all that. So, great. But now, why is _he_ there?

Basically, I need one of two things: either a different reason for the girl to be down there, or a Tragic Past(tm) for the brother.

(Incidentally, the winged girl and her brother aren't angels or demons or anything, although it will be discovered later that they have superhuman abilities. So, since I'm not very creative and I can't think of anything better, I was leaning towards them being aliens. Also, I would be willing to make them father and daughter instead of brother and sister if that would make it easier.)

Ergo, the brother (or father) left his homeworld and exiled himself where he thought no one would find him. What I'd like is for it to not be a very black and white reason, like "I was framed for a murder I didn't commit" or something. I'd like it to be something that would make some of the readers side with him, and make other readers side with his sister (or daughter) in wanting him to go home

Maybe something that's a bit morally ambiguous, like he _did _commit some kind of crime, but it was for good reasons or political ideals of some kind, and he's gone into hiding to avoid capture. Or maybe he's exiling himself on principle, like, "I refuse to accept [something]" or "I will not live in a world that [whatever]."

If you're still reading this Great Wall of Text (I don't know how I could have made it any shorter, unfortunately) and you're willing to help, then I thank you very much. If not, then thank you for at least being willing to read this far.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 1, 2007)

Perhaps he took something that he thought was harmful for society yet had become important to that society.


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## GreatMarta (Sep 2, 2007)

To confusion: I've recently read an article about a sister searching for her brother, and I think this might fit your storyline:

You say they are half siblings, right? Well, in this case, it might've been so:

The siblings have always been friends. I suppose the girl is younger and she admired her brother greatly. But the mother only spoiled the girl. and was very demanding to the boy. The girl thought that's because he's older, but the conflict between the mother and brother was growing stronger and stronger. One day mother told father: ,,You have to choose: Me and your daughter, or that boy!" And so, soon after that, the boy left his home. 

Later, when the girl grew up, she decided to find her half-brother. To me, the story seemed good. And it was based on actual events. Whatcha think?


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## The Pink Ninja (Sep 2, 2007)

I miss writing


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## confusion the waitress (Sep 3, 2007)

GreatMarta said:


> To confusion:
> <snip>
> Whatcha think?



That's a really interesting idea, GM. It never even occured to me to make it something as simple as a family problem. And Lord Yu, thanks for your suggestion, too.

However (and isn't this always the way?) literally the _next day_ after I posted this I came up with something that I think might work. So, I guess you can disregard my little cry for help now.

I'd like to know something, though. Anyone ever come up with what seems like a really good idea for a story or book, but you worry that maybe it's actually a really stupid idea instead?

I do. _Constantly._


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## Lord Yu (Sep 3, 2007)

I'd assume alot of people do. But it's really a measure of your will if you have the courage  to do it anyway.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 3, 2007)

I need to find some time to write seriously.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 3, 2007)

I need to find some better transitional sentences seriously.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 3, 2007)

Transitional sentences? You mean like at the end of a scene, end of a paragraph or at the end of a Chapter? 

This girl here actually told me she really enjoyed my transitions from scene to scene and when she did that I was kind of proud because I never really thought of myself as being good at that sort of thing.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 3, 2007)

End of scene.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 3, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> End of scene.


 
Oh those can be hard, but I like doing them because you can have everything build into that one moment.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 3, 2007)

I'm not talking about anything dramatic. I do drama fairly well. I'm just kinda bad at going from intense fighting to calm conversation.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 3, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm not talking about anything dramatic. I do drama fairly well. I'm just kinda bad at going from intense fighting to calm conversation.


 
Never thought about it, but usually my intense fighting dies down before the scene ends, I haven't really ever jumped back and fourth when fight was going on.


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## Bikiluf (Sep 3, 2007)

How do you find your writing rythm? I've been searching for it for a couple of years now, the result-- a zillion of ideas, a thick pile of  beginnings and zero novels. 
Realy, I seem to abandon first thoughts fairly quickly. No idea what causes this, I tried to write in the evening, in the afternoon, after smoking, before stuff. 
When I'm too tired to write I rest but I can't go back to writing after losing my first wind for some reason. 

Any suggestions on how to fix me?


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## Lord Yu (Sep 3, 2007)

I don't really think I have a rhythm. I write when the words flow.


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## confusion the waitress (Sep 3, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I'd assume alot of people do. But it's really a measure of your will if you have the courage  to do it anyway.



That's... really good advice. Thank you. I needed to hear that.


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## GreatMarta (Sep 4, 2007)

I don't think I can read through the entire topic (my poor eyes...) but guess I can say something. 

Myself, I've decided that I want to write when I was about 6. At first, it was fun, I just imagined stories and simply wrote down whgatever I could think of. But as I grew older and read a few good books, I realized how much there still is to learn.

As for ideas: I have a lot, but so far 6 that I'm thinking seriously on. My problem was that I was very easy to get oinfluenced by everything and kept on changing my plans for all the time. Now the main problem is: how to express, what I want to say through words?

I want to be a good writer. I see now it is not just about good ideas. The stories have to make sense. Have their logic. Seem realistic and possible to happen. I now notice how my old sotries lacked so many basics and am trying to correct them.

My dream..., no my obsession is to one day write a book, that would sell better than Harry Potter. I want to leave something valuable behind. I want somebody to acknowledge me. To feel, that what I've done is useful for other people. Sighs... kinda like Naruto...   

I'm trying to write. But so far, the only thing I could finish are two children stories and a one shot about a woman, who was aslaved by a terrorist in ninja reality (well, at least my teacher liked it). I keep on thinking: one day, I'll reach my goal. But I actually don't have enough power to accomplish it. I'm still a useless being. At least I have my dream.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 4, 2007)

Sell better then Harry Potter? Go for it if think you can. As for me I try not think of selling. But I do think of my story like a video game quite often. I can't stop thinking of gameplay mechanics. But I digress, I'm still debating whether or not to seek publishing for my novel. Because my motto for my story has kind of shifted to 'For the lulz'.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 4, 2007)

GreatMarta said:


> I don't think I can read through the entire topic (my poor eyes...) but guess I can say something.
> 
> Myself, I've decided that I want to write when I was about 6. At first, it was fun, I just imagined stories and simply wrote down whgatever I could think of. But as I grew older and read a few good books, I realized how much there still is to learn.
> 
> ...



Well the thing is, the story doesn't have to be believable, it just has to be believable in that universe you have set it in. You have to follow the rules of the world you have set. For Naruto the rules that apply wouldn't work in the world of say, the X-Files. And the rules of my story wouldn't fit well in a show like Star Trek or a novel like "The Grapes of Wrath". 

Continuity is important, characters with weaknesses and strengths. The best way to learn how to write better is read more. 

If you are having trouble finishing what you start there is a book on writing called "Beginnings Middles and Ends" that teaches how to take a book from start to finish and how to plan and the like.


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## Noah (Sep 4, 2007)

Try not to think of it as selling. Try to think of it as telling your stories to as many people as possible. That's how I justify it and pretend to keep my artistic integrity.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 4, 2007)

I hardly read at all anymore. I read alot in Elementary school. But all the intellectual erosion that took place throughout middle school and high school just killed my reading habit.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 4, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I hardly read at all anymore. I read alot in Elementary school. But all the intellectual erosion that took place throughout middle school and high school just killed my reading habit.



Reading helps a lot, especially reading several different authors and looking at different ways of doing things. Its not copying, but you can pick up some good examples of things to do. And whats more is you can look at the world around you. This one author tells this story of how her friend said that this guys face looked like a baked ham. And she said that was the perfect description and even though her friend was not a writer, it was still good and usable. 



Red_Squirrel said:


> Try not to think of it as selling. Try to think of it as telling your stories to as many people as possible. That's how I justify it and pretend to keep my artistic integrity.



I don't really think of selling, I just think of keeping someone interested and I am proud to say I can do that with most people.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 4, 2007)

Nah I'll stick to the Kamina school of doing things and wing it my way till the end.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 4, 2007)

Anyone want to take a look at this for me, its pretty short. About two pages. 


*Spoiler*: __ 




 I didn?t hear the gunshot, nor did I see the weapon, but from the size of the impact wound and the way the body was ripped through the air like a puppeteer had been there yanking it around, I was sure it was a fifty caliber. The rest of them scrambled down to his side, their voices saturated with fear, their breath short, ?Mr. President! Mr. President!? 


He was already dead, his arm ripped off at the shoulder, his was holding it, her clothes drenched in blood from the residual splatter. She was already delirious with shock, ?He needs this, he needs his arm!? her voice was calm, almost unaware that her husband had been shattered. 


 I tried to drown it all out as I scanned the horizon for the spot where the shot came from. It was so close to me, it whizzed past and I knew it came from the general direction of the West. I squinted against the setting sun and I spotted something erect into the sky with the light pinching at it from around the sides. 


 All around us people were screaming, hysterical and mad with fright. I pulled my gun and with my free hand knocked someone back, ?Everyone stay down,? I yelled. No one was listening, no matter how high I raised my voice. The road was gridlocked now, the limousine that we should have been getting into was against the curb with the door open still. 


 I fought my way up onto the hood of the car and ran up the window, my feet pounding against the glass as I moved. I could hear the car bending slightly under my feet. I reached the back of the car and leapt to the hood of the next. Now I glanced back to the West and I could see that the tower I had seen earlier was a Church steeple. 


 Just as I went to run again the car jolted to one side, my blonde hair got in my face and I stumbled and fell from the top of the car, my gun was lost off in some random direction and I went down hard on the ground clutching at my shoulder. 


 ?Dammit,? I cursed as I went to move. The crowd was like a sea around me. Moving and pulsing. The screams and panic filled the air. I struggled back to my feet knowing that if I didn?t that I might be trampled. This time I stayed low, now that I was sure where the shot came from, the guy had seen me and I had looked at him. He shot just as I moved luckily. 


 Overhead there was the sound of a helicopter in the distance, I could hear a reporter crying out, ?The President?s been shot! The President?s been shot!? 


 I slapped my hand over my ear and my mouth piece, ?This is Agent Brenham, there?s a Church to the West, its on a hill, the shooter?s there, I?m sure of it!? 


 There was no response over the radio, the crowds were dispersing now and I was running faster between people, no gun now just my legs pumping as I moved around people. That church was over a mile off. 


 Then about seventy yards out in front of me there was a loud sound like metal being popped and this truck flipped up into the air in a ball of flames. Around it the ground was set ablaze. 


 ?God, oh God!? someone grabbed onto me screaming, I took them to the ground with my right arm with a Judo style slam. When the truck dropped back into street, its red paint melted off I just stopped. Bodies were all around, people burning, drying. I grabbed my earpiece, ?He must be trying to run,? I said over the melee and the screams, ?that?s his distraction!? 


 Still no response, I knew it was too late, by now he?d be escaping into the streets, blending in. I headed back up the road for the where the President lay. His wife was down on all fours, sobbing, fighting off the other Agents as they tried to pull her away. President Sierra was being loaded onto a stretcher, his severed arm was placed next to the body and he was covered with a black sheet. I slapped my hand to my forehead and just tried to breathe, ?Jesus Christ.? 


   My first day on the job and more than likely my last.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 4, 2007)

> “He needs this, he needs his arm!”


I lol'd at this point. After that I couldn't take anything afterwards seriously.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 4, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I lol'd at this point. After that I couldn't take anything afterwards seriously.



Hysterics do that to people, you've never read accounts from war where someone was trying to put their buddy back together out of shock?


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## Lord Yu (Sep 4, 2007)

I usually associate that with silence. But sometimes people do say ridiculous things. Though that doesn't mean you have to put them in there.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 4, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I usually associate that with silence. But sometimes people do say ridiculous things. Though that doesn't mean you have to put them in there.



Eh I guess, no one else has said anything about it though, and it really looks fine to me. Plus with the darkening tone of the previous two stories I think it will work.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 4, 2007)

Who are you showing this too?


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## GreatMarta (Sep 4, 2007)

About that ham description - it was funny ^_^

I think the funniest I made so far was: "(...) and the probability of finding a vigrin at age of 20 and more was about the same as probability of finding an elephant embryo in a coca-cola can" (about people on a planet I made up) ^_^


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## Lord Yu (Sep 4, 2007)

Don't insult us 21 year old virgins!


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 4, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Who are you showing this too?



Friends, family, teachers, other people over the internet. I really would show parts of my stories to most anyone. But the longer ones can be a little taxing. I just let my best friend read it because he's sick right now in bed. He hasn't read anything I've written since High school and he was like, "Wow, you've gotten better". 

But for the most part I want to look for a writing group, they have them at Barnes and Noble but I am scared to do that whole deal. Sometimes the people there are all like in their 40s and 50s and if I am the youngest I'll just feel odd. 



GreatMarta said:


> About that ham description - it was funny ^_^
> 
> I think the funniest I made so far was: "(...) and the probability of finding a vigrin at age of 20 and more was about the same as probability of finding an elephant embryo in a coca-cola can" (about people on a planet I made up) ^_^



For some reason when I write descriptions I get hung up on water, the movement of water and the like. I love to write stories where it is raining which is fine because it rains a lot in Houston, in fact its about to right now. 

I can't think of a time where I wrote something that really just stuck with me liked "that baked ham description". But I have had those brilliant moments of dialog before where I wanted to print the quote out and frame it on my wall. 

I think I handle dialog better than most other things because I actively studied how people talked and went out into public just to try and catch the different types of things different people say and the inferences one can draw from how people speak.


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## Lovewitches (Sep 4, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Anyone want to take a look at this for me, its pretty short. About two pages.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Not bad at all. Some of the sentences can probably be slightly reworked, there was something that made it seem less dramatic than it actualy was. Your wording is excellent, and for me, a person that has slight problems with hanging to the real storyline, got what was happening. Impressive.

I do think there is a bit too little text for it to really get a good feel. Sure, it shows the hysterical ways of a stressful situation, but there is that little magic thats missing. Add some spice, and its a winner.


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## Dream Brother (Sep 4, 2007)

Some neat advice on writing in general from Scott Lynch, who wrote _The Lies of Locke Lamora_ and _Red Seas Under Red Skies_:

_*1. Remember that the language is a medium as well as a means.*

What happens when you take away Vincent Van Gogh's lively, swirling brush strokes or Georges Seurat's uncountable pointillist dots? Your picture gets dull, that's what. Prose is more than a mechanism for the delivery of a story- it is an infinitely plastic medium that has the power to convert a few square inches of black and white space into vivid imagery behind the reader's eyes. Unless, of course, the writer chooses to ignore it. But then I thought that boring readers stiff was a bad thing.

Prose style, whether hard-hitting and compact (ala Ernest Hemingway) or opulent and baroque (ala Ray Bradbury) is nothing to be afraid of, and he who scorns it will probably never write anything worth reading more than once.

*2. Don't waste the reader's time.*

The best, brightest, and boldest creators in any medium are those that remember that they only have so many pages, so much air time, so much film, and so much space on a CD with which to entertain the audience. The key to crafting an exciting, memorable story in writing is to keep out all the bits and pieces that don't go anywhere, lead to anything, or enlighten any aspect of the unfolding narrative. Go through your work with a fine-toothed mental comb and peel out the slow bits, the boring bits, and the bits that never seem to end. Meandering conversation? Kill it. Superfluous dialogue? Kill it. Subplot left hanging, unresolved, or fundamentally unimportant? Kill it, slay it, take it out back and hang it without benefit of trial.

Oh, yeah. I'm not talking about the parts that are important or unimportant to your plot, knucklehead. I'm talking about the parts that are important or unimportant when seen through the eyes of your reader. Let me ask you this- if it's necessary for the reader to suffer through thirty pages of dull exposition in order to understand your plot, your characters, and your setting, what's stopping you from keeping the substance of those passages but replacing them with thirty pages of exciting exposition?

You say it gets good on page 154? Fuck you. Lost sale. Make it good on page one or get lost.

*3. Read a fricking book.*

If you are a writer or would-be writer and you claim that you don't have the time or the need to read the work of other writers, you are lying to yourself. You are crippling your potential. You are wrong in every case and you cannot cook up a counter-argument that trumps the need to read widely if you want to write well. It's that simple. _


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 4, 2007)

lovewitches said:


> Not bad at all. Some of the sentences can probably be slightly reworked, there was something that made it seem less dramatic than it actualy was. Your wording is excellent, and for me, a person that has slight problems with hanging to the real storyline, got what was happening. Impressive.
> 
> I do think there is a bit too little text for it to really get a good feel. Sure, it shows the hysterical ways of a stressful situation, but there is that little magic thats missing. Add some spice, and its a winner.



Well I actually have about eight pages done, the first chapter and the Epilogue. The first chapter is very different feeling from this part. And this part actually was written from two different points. This being the second and the first having been where I started the story out earlier and led up to the death. 

Thanks for the help and I think I do need to, more than anything go back and just rework all of the sentences and make sure things are clear. There could be a little more description I feel and I think that's one of my weaker points is description. 

I think it does feel kind of short and the hysteria is kind of cut out by the fact that there seems to not be enough going on with the crowd, with the photographers and cameras that would be there. I could use all of that in a much better way. 

Madness can be show very easily thorough crowd behavior and reactions. I will go back when I get off and try to iron things out.

But thanks again.


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## GreatMarta (Sep 4, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Don't insult us 21 year old virgins!



No offence. I'm 18 and a virgin too (guess that's not gonna change in the nearest future). I guess that the human-like race I created for the needs of my book (one of many...) is a bit crazy ^_^. BTW the main char is 18 and also a virgin, which makes him in a way different than the people his age (in that reality), and makes his father angry, for he fears his son will not grant him grandchildren ^_^. Better, one char that is 34 will accidentally turn out to be a virgin too ^_^ (some crazy women were trying to rape him when he was younger, and so the scar on his psychics remained). I totally support waiting for true love with loosing virignity. My characters don't necessarily have to share my world-view ^_^


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## Einstein (Sep 4, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I really liked this. I'd like to thank lovewitches for quoting this, because I would not have seen it any other way, and I'd have missed out on a lot. I'm a real sucker for things in 2nd person, so naturally I'm going to say "Damn.. this should've been in 2nd person", because I'd actually get the more vivid feel of actually being there and not the feel of watching someone else.. be there.

What I though was, that the pace wan't fast enough, or as fast as it could be. It also didn't give me as much of a "panic mode" feeling it could have. Things that really help with this are shorter sentences. Also, you could use one-word sentences inbetween heated moments, like sounds.



			
				Example said:
			
		

> Boom.
> 
> You didn?t hear the gunshot, nor did you see the weapon. You did, however, see the body ripped through the air like a puppet being directed by it's master. You were sure it was a fifty caliber. The rest of them scrambled down to his side. Voices were saturated with fear. Breath was short.
> 
> "Mr. President! Mr President!"


OK, I know that was a shitty example, but I hope you see what I'm getting at.

Also, those one-word sentences help with 2nd person, if you ever consider it, because, like I said, you want the person to actually feel like they are there.


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## kairikitten (Sep 4, 2007)

I was writing a novel in the past, but it was so terrible I quit. It was called Death is the Color of Night, and it was a horror/romance novel. I got about 70 pages in and just gave up. It was awful! 

But, anyway, now I'm thinking of starting another where three stories intertwine. The main story is called Strawberries, though, and it's about a girl who likes to write, and suddenly her villian comes to her and tells her to write him a new story so he can control his own life. It's so angsty and dark, I can't believe it.  Two other stories are going to be in this one--one about a girl that the villian is forced to fall in love with, and the villian himself. I've got Strawberries finished, and the girl's story (called Divine) is not even half way done. The villian's story (called Crimson) is not even past the first chapter. I'm having horrible writer's block concerning how to word it; I have it all planned out in my head.


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## nyo_nyo43 (Sep 4, 2007)

eveytime i try to write a story for a novel, i always break down around chapter three, or so, and trash all the work i had done. the problem is that events that are ment to be small, always turn out lager then i expected, and take up a whole three pages. and the events that are supposed to be large, always turn out really small, and only take up half a page. itv really annoys me, but that doesn't mean that i wont stop trying! 

         ~*~nyo_nyo43~*~


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## Einstein (Sep 4, 2007)

nyo_nyo43 said:


> eveytime i try to write a story for a novel, i always break down around chapter three, or so, and trash all the work i had done. the problem is that events that are ment to be small, always turn out lager then i expected, and take up a whole three pages. and the events that are supposed to be large, always turn out really small, and only take up half a page. itv really annoys me, but that doesn't mean that i wont stop trying!
> 
> ~*~nyo_nyo43~*~



Don't try to set up things according to lenght. That's a #1 way to put your writing to a stop. Don't cut off things because you think it's too long, and don't overdo the stuff that turns out short. Unless someone said there was a word limit, don't worry about lenght. And word limits don't usually have a minimum, so you don't have to worry about shortness. Just write- it all pans out eventually.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 4, 2007)

Elwood said:


> I really liked this. I'd like to thank lovewitches for quoting this, because I would not have seen it any other way, and I'd have missed out on a lot. I'm a real sucker for things in 2nd person, so naturally I'm going to say "Damn.. this should've been in 2nd person", because I'd actually get the more vivid feel of actually being there and not the feel of watching someone else.. be there.
> 
> What I though was, that the pace wan't fast enough, or as fast as it could be. It also didn't give me as much of a "panic mode" feeling it could have. Things that really help with this are shorter sentences. Also, you could use one-word sentences inbetween heated moments, like sounds.
> 
> ...



Thanks for all of the tips! I'm glad that you got to see it too, you and Lovey have been a lot of help. So you write a lot too?


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## Einstein (Sep 4, 2007)

I used to write godspeed, but lately I've slowed down due to lack of motivation and school. Pretty soon I hope to start writing short stories, which I've never done before (I had the idea stuck in my head that every brainstorm had to become a novel, and it became my downfall) But for now I'm just sticking to reading, being a grammar nazi, and helping others by critique and revision help.

How long have you been writing, CTK? Well, in the figurative sense. Like, how long have you actually considered yourself a writer?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 4, 2007)

Elwood said:


> I used to write godspeed, but lately I've slowed down due to lack of motivation and school. Pretty soon I hope to start writing short stories, which I've never done before (I had the idea stuck in my head that every brainstorm had to become a novel, and it became my downfall) But for now I'm just sticking to reading, being a grammar nazi, and helping others by critique and revision help.
> 
> How long have you been writing, CTK? Well, in the figurative sense. Like, how long have you actually considered yourself a writer?



I have been writing for fun for a long time but I never considered myself a writer until I was about fourteen. I'm twenty-one now so its been almost exactly seven years. But I did do some rather long stories while I was a little younger so its hard to pin point the exact time. 

For me writing has gotten a lot more serious though, and as a writer I am pretty confident in myself, yet I know my weaknesses too.


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## Einstein (Sep 4, 2007)

I've considered myself to be a writer since last year; I've only actually considered myself a good writer since this one, and I'm 13 now.

First wind gets to me hard, so I'm thinking, with a short story, my first wind could be my last, and I won't have to worry about anything but actually liking it. I agree with the strenghts-weaknesses part as well. For me, critique is a must, because I always know I could do better. 

I don't know if this sounds a little unfair or something, but I don't even bother reading the works of assholes. Like, people who say something like "My kidnergarten son could've written that," and they don't explain or further the insult so it could actually hold water and help me improve. I also don't like reading people's work if I know they won't take anything people say and put it to work.

And that includes friends. A complete stranger can go against nearly everything I stand for and I'll still read their work, if they aren't like what I listed.

But, am I wrong for this, or does everyone deserve the equal amount of attention?


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## Noah (Sep 4, 2007)

Ever since that link for NaNo was posted, I've been working on ideas, outlines and character summaries. However, I've just realized that these ideas would make much better comics or graphic novels than they would a text-based novel.  I tend to find this to be a problem when I really get to the writing point; I can't ever decide which medium to go with.

I'm gonna have to go to the art boards and hound those things for an artist now, since I'm only good with Photoshop.


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## Einstein (Sep 4, 2007)

Red_Squirrel said:


> Ever since that link for NaNo was posted, I've been working on ideas, outlines and character summaries. However, I've just realized that these ideas would make much better comics or graphic novels than they would a text-based novel.  I tend to find this to be a problem when I really get to the writing point; I can't ever decide which medium to go with.
> 
> I'm gonna have to go to the art boards and hound those things for an artist now, since I'm only good with Photoshop.


The comic book plan could actually work, though if you have a friend that can draw well, I'd rather go with that. But then again, I'm more of a face to face person when it comes to collab/joint publication/whatever things. The choice is yours.

A friend of mine "hired" me to write for her comic book.. and it'd be going really well, if she'd get off of her lazy ass.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 4, 2007)

Elwood said:


> I've considered myself to be a writer since last year; I've only actually considered myself a good writer since this one, and I'm 13 now.
> 
> First wind gets to me hard, so I'm thinking, with a short story, my first wind could be my last, and I won't have to worry about anything but actually liking it. I agree with the strenghts-weaknesses part as well. For me, critique is a must, because I always know I could do better.
> 
> ...



You're just thirteen? That's impressive, I can tell just by how you type you're pretty intelligent.


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## Einstein (Sep 4, 2007)

Thank you. Most people here swear I'm at least 20. I only end up on some people's contact lists on MSN because I'm not like those "other" 13-14 year old "brats", lol.. I seem so old.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 4, 2007)

I actually tried to add you on MSN if you don't mind.


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## MitsukiShiroi (Sep 5, 2007)

GreatMarta said:


> My dream..., no my obsession is to one day write a book, that would sell better than Harry Potter. I want to leave something valuable behind. I want somebody to acknowledge me. To feel, that what I've done is useful for other people. Sighs... kinda like Naruto...



Why would you need to be selling like J.K. Rowling does to feel like you left something valuable behind? I wrote a fanfiction a while back with a lot of life's stories (love, loss, death, healing and forgiveness) in it, and I felt like I left something important behind with that too.

It's the idea of touching someone with what you write, not how much you might potentially sell.



Lord Yu said:


> I hardly read at all anymore. I read alot in Elementary school. But all the intellectual erosion that took place throughout middle school and high school just killed my reading habit.



I find that reading other stories inspires me a lot, seeing as I want to be one of the published writers 



Elwood said:


> I've considered myself to be a writer since last year; I've only actually considered myself a good writer since this one, and I'm 13 now.
> 
> First wind gets to me hard, so I'm thinking, with a short story, my first wind could be my last, and I won't have to worry about anything but actually liking it. I agree with the strenghts-weaknesses part as well. For me, critique is a must, because I always know I could do better.
> 
> ...



Not everyone. I stopped reading Anne Rice's works when I found out what a self-centered, insulting diva she is. I tried reading a book of hers since and it left a bad aftertaste in my mouth.

And your confidence is good, much better than mine was when I was thirteen and writing, but never forget that you can always be better. :3



Red_Squirrel said:


> Ever since that link for NaNo was posted, I've been working on ideas, outlines and character summaries.



Hahaha, lovely. I help make people's minds go wild. xD


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## Caladan Brood (Sep 5, 2007)

Terry Goodkind is a joke.
He's a religious twat who preaches it in his books.
Another reason to not read them (they were terrible in the first place anyway)

Thoughts?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 5, 2007)

MitsukiShiroi said:


> Not everyone. I stopped reading Anne Rice's works when I found out what a self-centered, insulting diva she is. I tried reading a book of hers since and it left a bad aftertaste in my mouth.



Didn't know Rice was so bad, I used to read her stuff alot. I heard that after her husband died she started to write different. 

But I don't know, I have less trouble with her being a diva than with someone who hasn't been published yet or even someone who has never showed anyone a story.


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## MitsukiShiroi (Sep 5, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Didn't know Rice was so bad, I used to read her stuff alot. I heard that after her husband died she started to write different.
> 
> But I don't know, I have less trouble with her being a diva than with someone who hasn't been published yet or even someone who has never showed anyone a story.





> Seldom do I really answer those who criticize my work. In fact, the entire development of my career has been fueled by my ability to ignore denigrating and trivializing criticism as I realize my dreams and my goals. However there is something compelling about Amazon's willingness to publish just about anything, and the sheer outrageous stupidity of many things you've said here that actually touches my proletarian and Democratic soul. Also I use and enjoy Amazon and I do read the reviews of other people's books in many fields. In sum, I believe in what happens here. And so, I speak. First off, let me say that this is addressed only to some of you, who have posted outrageously negative comments here, and not to all. You are interrogating this text from the wrong perspective. Indeed, you aren't even reading it. You are projecting your own limitations on it. And you are giving a whole new meaning to the words "wide readership." And you have strained my Dickensean principles to the max. I'm justifiably proud of being read by intellectual giants and waitresses in trailer parks,in fact, I love it, but who in the world are you? Now to the book. Allow me to point out: nowhere in this text are you told that this is the last of the chronicles, nowhere are you promised curtain calls or a finale, nowhere are you told there will be a wrap-up of all the earlier material. The text tells you exactly what to expect. And it warns you specifically that if you did not enjoy Memnoch the Devil, you may not enjoy this book. This book is by and about a hero whom many of you have already rejected. And he tells you that you are likely to reject him again. And this book is most certainly written -- every word of it -- by me. If and when I can't write a book on my own, you'll know about it. And no, I have no intention of allowing any editor ever to distort, cut, or otherwise mutilate sentences that I have edited and re-edited, and organized and polished myself. I fought a great battle to achieve a status where I did not have to put up with editors making demands on me, and I will never relinquish that status. For me, novel writing is a virtuoso performance. It is not a collaborative art. Back to the novel itself: the character who tells the tale is my Lestat. I was with him more closely than I have ever been in this novel; his voice was as powerful for me as I've ever heard it. I experienced break through after break through as I walked with him, moved with him, saw through his eyes. What I ask of Lestat, Lestat unfailingly gives. For me, three hunting scenes, two which take place in hotels -- the lone woman waiting for the hit man, the slaughter at the pimp's party -- and the late night foray into the slums --stand with any similar scenes in all of the chronicles. They can be read aloud without a single hitch. Every word is in perfect place. The short chapter in which Lestat describes his love for Rowan Mayfair was for me a totally realized poem. There are other such scenes in this book. You don't get all this? Fine. But I experienced an intimacy with the character in those scenes that shattered all prior restraints, and when one is writing one does have to continuously and courageously fight a destructive tendency to inhibition and restraint. Getting really close to the subject matter is the achievement of only great art. Now, if it doesn't appeal to you, fine. You don't enjoy it? Read somebody else. But your stupid arrogant assumptions about me and what I am doing are slander. And you have used this site as if it were a public urinal to publish falsehood and lies. I'll never challenge your democratic freedom to do so, and yes, I'm answering you, but for what it's worth, be assured of the utter contempt I feel for you, especially those of you who post anonymously (and perhaps repeatedly?) and how glad I am that this book is the last one in a series that has invited your hateful and ugly responses. Now, to return to the narrative in question: Lestat's wanting to be a saint is a vision larded through and through with his characteristic vanity. It connects perfectly with his earlier ambitions to be an actor in Paris, a rock star in the modern age. If you can't see that, you aren't reading my work. In his conversation with the Pope he makes observations on the times which are in continuity with his observations on the late twentieth century in The Vampire Lestat, and in continuity with Marius' observations in that book and later in Queen of the Damned. The state of the world has always been an important theme in the chronicles. Lestat's comments matter. Every word he speaks is part of the achievement of this book. That Lestat renounced this saintly ambition within a matter of pages is plain enough for you to see. That he reverts to his old self is obvious, and that he intends to complete the tale of Blackwood Farm is also quite clear. There are many other themes and patterns in this work that I might mention -- the interplay between St.Juan Diago and Lestat, the invisible creature who doesn't "exist" in the eyes of the world is a case in point. There is also the theme of the snare of Blackwood Farm, the place where a human existence becomes so beguiling that Lestat relinquishes his power as if to a spell. The entire relationship between Lestat and Uncle Julien is carefully worked out. But I leave it to readers to discover how this complex and intricate novel establishes itself within a unique, if not unrivalled series of book. There are things to be said. And there is pleasure to be had. And readers will say wonderful things about Blood Canticle and they already are. There are readers out there and plenty of them who cherish the individuality of each of the chronicles which you so flippantly condemn. They can and do talk circles around you. And I am warmed by their response. Their letters, the papers they write in school, our face to face exchanges on the road -- these things sustain me when I read the utter trash that you post. But I feel I have said enough. If this reaches one reader who is curious about my work and shocked by the ugly reviews here, I've served my goals. And Yo, you dude, the slang police! Lestat talks like I do. He always has and he always will. You really wouldn't much like being around either one of us. And you don't have to be. If any of you want to say anything about all this by all means Email me at Anneobrienrice@mac.com. And if you want your money back for the book, send it to 1239 First Street, New Orleans, La, 70130. I'm not a coward about my real name or where I live. And yes, the Chronicles are no more! Thank God!



That was left by her on Amazon, when a few people told her they thought her books sucked. I wouldn't care about her otherwise, but having her insult my intelligence and such is too much for me and I've told her that as well.


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## Dream Brother (Sep 5, 2007)

U-Borat said:


> Terry Goodkind is a joke.
> He's a religious twat who preaches it in his books.
> Another reason to not read them (they were terrible in the first place anyway)
> 
> Thoughts?



Goodkind is awful.

I can never understand why so many like him -- writers like Martin, Hobb and Stover (just to name a few) leave him in the dust.

And wow, Mitsuki. After reading that rant by Rice, 'self-centered, insulting diva' seems like a _nice_ way of putting it.


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## Pan-on (Sep 5, 2007)

U-Borat said:


> Terry Goodkind is a joke.
> He's a religious twat who preaches it in his books.
> Another reason to not read them (they were terrible in the first place anyway)
> 
> Thoughts?



i wouldnt say all his books are awful I quite enjoyed the first one, but yes they do fall quite sharply in quality and he is a bit preachy, only writer i think where iv grown to dislike the main character



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by GreatMarta View Post
> My dream..., no my obsession is to one day write a book, that would sell better than Harry Potter. I want to leave something valuable behind. I want somebody to acknowledge me. To feel, that what I've done is useful for other people. Sighs... kinda like Naruto...
> 
> ...



thats sort of my ambition too and i understand what you mean about wanting to sell better than Harry Potter, I would like that too not because of the money or fame involved or anything but just to have as many people reading enjoying and talking about my novel as possible. And I totally agree with wanting to leave something valuable behind as well


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## MitsukiShiroi (Sep 5, 2007)

Dream Brother said:


> And wow, Mitsuki. After reading that rant by Rice, 'self-centered, insulting diva' seems like a _nice_ way of putting it.



You need to take pity on authors like these. Obviously they're the best thing that ever happened to themselves and they can't get over the fact that not everybody worships every book she vomits out. 

And I say vomits, since her writing really sucked for a couple of years now.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 5, 2007)

MitsukiShiroi said:


> That was left by her on Amazon, when a few people told her they thought her books sucked. I wouldn't care about her otherwise, but having her insult my intelligence and such is too much for me and I've told her that as well.



I don't agree with her insulting of people's intelligence, but I have to say that she is right on some points. Much of the time on sites like amazon the people leaving comments are devoid of any real reason for insulting something. Much like people insulting movies they haven't seen or CDs they've never listened to. 

I have to say I enjoyed some of Anne Rice's work and I think she's earned the right to be a little bitchy. But the thing is, when some kid on Fan fiction.net tells me shit like Anne Rice told those people, then I wonder who they thing they are.


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## GreatMarta (Sep 6, 2007)

Anonx said:


> thats sort of my ambition too and i understand what you mean about wanting to sell better than Harry Potter, I would like that too not because of the money or fame involved or anything but just to have as many people reading enjoying and talking about my novel as possible. And I totally agree with wanting to leave something valuable behind as well



Well... okay, I have to admitt it: I do care about money. My family has quite a good material status as for Polish reality. We're able to afford tutors, bonus lessons, holiday abroad and cool stuff like MP3 player. I'm used to living on such a level, and the vision of one day being left on my own scares me. I fear I'll never be able to make a living, not as good as my father does now. I am a weakling, with no self confidence and I can't deal with stress. I've come with a conclusion, that writting a best seller is my only way of earning as much money as to secure myself a future. 

I suck at everything but writing, drawing and foreign languages. I'm a shy, weak, clumsy coward, with no charisma. And I don't really have anybody, whom I'd be able to love. I'm scared of this. When I tell my mother I love her, I eel that those words are empty, and that I hate her for most of time. And when she says she loves me, I highly doubt it. She just criticizes everything I do. It feels, as if she had a plan for me, and that she goes mad when something doesn't go according to it, no matter how hard she denies it. I can't help it but feel unneeded. 

I made a theory, that when I write a bestseller and become famous, everybody will love me and appreciate what I do. It's stupid... but the only thing that gives me satisfaction are reviews I get at Fanfiction.net, Deviantart and Fanart.lionking.org. That's the only thing I care for: reviews. I need somebody to appreciate what I do. To keep on telling me, that I am not useless, that I my life in not pointless. 

I know. I am one, miserable being. Sorry to bore you.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 6, 2007)

GreatMarta said:


> Well... okay, I have to admitt it: I do care about money. My family has quite a good material status as for Polish reality. We're able to afford tutors, bonus lessons, holiday abroad and cool stuff like MP3 player. I'm used to living on such a level, and the vision of one day being left on my own scares me. I fear I'll never be able to make a living, not as good as my father does now. I am a weakling, with no self confidence and I can't deal with stress. I've come with a conclusion, that writting a best seller is my only way of earning as much money as to secure myself a future.
> 
> I suck at everything but writing, drawing and foreign languages. I'm a shy, weak, clumsy coward, with no charisma. And I don't really have anybody, whom I'd be able to love. I'm scared of this. When I tell my mother I love her, I eel that those words are empty, and that I hate her for most of time. And when she says she loves me, I highly doubt it. She just criticizes everything I do. It feels, as if she had a plan for me, and that she goes mad when something doesn't go according to it, no matter how hard she denies it. I can't help it but feel unneeded.
> 
> ...


 
No charisma eh? You should have asked for a re-roll...

Anyway if you are easily stressed out, writing is no different, I get stressed over writing. Hell I set deadlines for myself and I am struggling to meet them. I hold my stuff up to a microscope and throw it all out sometimes. I've only just now got the confidence to realize that some people might actually read what I have been writing. 

But the stress involved with being a professional is not to be taken lightly.


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## momolade (Sep 6, 2007)

you probably need to do more than get published to salvage your sense of self, though i imagine it must be a big help. 

i dont read much anne rice
but iv seen other people who read her stuff, and they were wearing capes


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## Lord Yu (Sep 6, 2007)

The slacker I am, I never set deadlines. To the above question, I rarely read my own work.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 6, 2007)

zenmusic17 said:


> That is very impressive to me since I am incapable of achieving any and all self-appointed deadlines. You have my admiration.
> 
> But I do have a question for you. When you say you hold your work up to a microscope and then end up throwing the whole thing out, what causes you to throw it out? Other than just being dissatisfied with it?
> 
> And to expand to the rest of the thread, same question.


 
Well there are times when I look at something and the characters are good but the story doesn't do what it needs to for them to operate. I realize that the things I have planned aren't what the characters need to happen for them to shine. And thats when I just know I have to throw the whole thing out. This time though, the characters are working out really well and everyone's doing what they need to, not what I want them to. 

I know its not just me, I think every writer has to do things for their characters that they don't neccessarily want to see happen. For example, one of my characters will be dying soon because he just needs to. He's going to go out in a way that will make him matter and make him an even bigger influence on the story. 

I love the character and I hate to see him go but it needs to happen.

Likewise a lot of the characters I have need to be changed around and need to do stuff for them to make the best impact they can on the story. There's a lot I have in store for them and I don't plan on being shocking or edgy. I plan on writing about normal people put in extraordinary circumstances.


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## Pan-on (Sep 6, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well there are times when I look at something and the characters are good but the story doesn't do what it needs to for them to operate. I realize that the things I have planned aren't what the characters need to happen for them to shine. And thats when I just know I have to throw the whole thing out. This time though, the characters are working out really well and everyone's doing what they need to, not what I want them to.
> 
> I know its not just me, I think every writer has to do things for their characters that they don't neccessarily want to see happen. For example, one of my characters will be dying soon because he just needs to. He's going to go out in a way that will make him matter and make him an even bigger influence on the story.
> 
> ...



ah killing off characters is something iv been thinking about a lot lately. Im not actually writing anything at the moment but iv been thinking a lot about what i would do if i were. and killing off characters is something i feel i might be very bad at as i grow quite attached to characters and hate to see them die even if i understand its important to the plot or to other character's development. Of course you could always bring the characters back but generally when this happens its sort of a cop out and it lessens the impact of death and ultimately the drama of the story so i was wondering how other people set up characters their ultimately just going to kill off? im not entirely sure how to even coherently put this question to you but if you get what i mean please reply.

the other thing i wondered was what do you think of first when writing a story, do you think of the plot and create characters around the plot or do you think of a setting and characters and create a plot to suit them? I realise it can be done either way but i, curious about how people decide.


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## Caladan Brood (Sep 7, 2007)

Depends on the situation.

If I think of an awesome character...its story based around character.
Or if I get inspiration for a really good setting, its the other way around.

Either way, plot comes last....


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 7, 2007)

Anonx said:


> ah killing off characters is something iv been thinking about a lot lately. Im not actually writing anything at the moment but iv been thinking a lot about what i would do if i were. and killing off characters is something i feel i might be very bad at as i grow quite attached to characters and hate to see them die even if i understand its important to the plot or to other character's development. Of course you could always bring the characters back but generally when this happens its sort of a cop out and it lessens the impact of death and ultimately the drama of the story so i was wondering how other people set up characters their ultimately just going to kill off? im not entirely sure how to even coherently put this question to you but if you get what i mean please reply.
> 
> the other thing i wondered was what do you think of first when writing a story, do you think of the plot and create characters around the plot or do you think of a setting and characters and create a plot to suit them? I realise it can be done either way but i, curious about how people decide.



Normally I just get an idea...like an event or a creature or something like that and I build the characters and plot around it. 

And when I kill someone, they have to stay dead, otherwise it gets like DBZ. When I know someone is going to die I just make sure not to miss an opportunity to give them some important actions.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 7, 2007)

I have few issues with killing a character. I've named characters and killed them off on the same page. As for story or characters. I tend to write the story around the characters.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 10, 2007)

I'm making a special forces name for one of my stories and I need names for them, so far these are the names I have come up with and I just wanted to see what others said. 

This first set is the members of the past, they'll be shown only in flashbacks and all but two are dead.

 “Vixen”
  “Scope”
"Knight"
"Jackal"
"Com"

The second set is the current members in the story.

“Mr. X”
  “Serif"
"Ghost"
"Loki"
"Tremor"


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## Lord Yu (Sep 10, 2007)

Try mythical names just for the hell of it.


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## Perverse (Sep 17, 2007)

Ghost sounds way too cliche, in my opinion.


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## Caladan Brood (Sep 17, 2007)

if this is fantasy, the only name which is remotely non-cliched/non-lame is Serif.


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## Noah (Sep 17, 2007)

Serif may be the least cliche/hokey, but it's too similar to seraph.

Personally, I dig through history or mythology books and find gods/heroes/myths/etc. that can easily be changed to sound like a normal name. For example, Govannon was the god of smiths and metal workers in Celtic Wales. I took an engineer character of mine and named him Zachary Govannon. Seems pretty easy and low key to me.

Finding a subtle name for a character, at least to me, also seems to be more rewarding than giving a guy with wings the name Angel.

However, if you're going for a super soldier special ops or sci-fi thing, then the first group is pretty appropriate.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 17, 2007)

I tend to go nuts with phonetics. I star with a letter or sound and start pairing it with others to see how it sounds.


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## The Thieving Queen (Sep 17, 2007)

I've stopped thinking of writing and wrecking my poor fizzled brain over a novel for the moment, but I'm still keeping a journal of ideas I come up with while daydreaming. 


I lurve this article.


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## Dream Brother (Sep 17, 2007)

Great article, Queen. Thanks for that.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 17, 2007)

Dub Fresh said:


> Ghost sounds way too cliche, in my opinion.



Well like I aid this is all a work in progress, currently I'm not really writing for those characters because there part hasn't come up yet in the story.

But before it does I want to have something ironed out. 



U-Borat said:


> if this is fantasy, the only name which is remotely non-cliched/non-lame is Serif.



Someone just pointed out to me that Serif is from the Matrix, I didn't even know that. But due to my dislike of the second and third movies I will more than likely change that one. 



Red_Squirrel said:


> Serif may be the least cliche/hokey, but it's too similar to seraph.
> 
> Personally, I dig through history or mythology books and find gods/heroes/myths/etc. that can easily be changed to sound like a normal name. For example, Govannon was the god of smiths and metal workers in Celtic Wales. I took an engineer character of mine and named him Zachary Govannon. Seems pretty easy and low key to me.
> 
> ...



They're super soldiers I guess in that way that the people in Metal Gear Solid 1 and 2 are. They're sort of like like a special ops anti terrorism group.


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## Antenox (Sep 17, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well like I aid this is all a work in progress, currently I'm not really writing for those characters because there part hasn't come up yet in the story.
> 
> But before it does I want to have something ironed out.
> 
> ...


My suggestion would be to look at names used by authors like John le Carre. For example, in his book _Tinker, Tailer, Soldier, Spy_, the characters' code names are Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Poor Man, and Beggar Man, based on the old children's rhyme, "Tinker, tailor, soldier, sailor, rich man, poor man, beggar man, thief." And one of the supervisors is simply named "Control."

Or in the movie "The Good Shepherd" (one of the best espionage movies out there), the code names used are Cardinal, Mother, and Ulysses.

I would not try to make your names too "badass"-sounding, because then they just come off as hokey and cheesy. "Knight" is probably the most plausible of the names you rattled off, especially if paired off like the Deck of Cards (which is what the real CIA uses anyway to name their targets).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 17, 2007)

Antenox said:


> My suggestion would be to look at names used by authors like John le Carre. For example, in his book _Tinker, Tailer, Soldier, Spy_, the characters' code names are Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Poor Man, and Beggar Man, based on the old children's rhyme, "Tinker, tailor, soldier, sailor, rich man, poor man, beggar man, thief." And one of the supervisors is simply named "Control."
> 
> Or in the movie "The Good Shepherd" (one of the best espionage movies out there), the code names used are Cardinal, Mother, and Ulysses.
> 
> I would not try to make your names too "badass"-sounding, because then they just come off as hokey and cheesy. "Knight" is probably the most plausible of the names you rattled off, especially if paired off like the Deck of Cards (which is what the real CIA uses anyway to name their targets).



The deck of cards thing is something I might actually go with. Or maybe Chess pieces and the deck of cards. Thanks for the idea, I never thought of that though.


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## Caladan Brood (Sep 17, 2007)

Well, if you're writing a thriller type, those code names will do fine.

Personally, I'd take a leaf from Steven Erikson; his names are so insanely wacky and fitting.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 17, 2007)

It's always fun to take code names from novels and literature. They even did that in MGS3 (with the name Major Tom, named after one of the three tunnels in the Great Escape). I think I might do chess pieces for one set of people and cards for another set. It sounds like it might be fitting. and the main character could be called Queen, since she is the girl.


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## Barinax (Sep 17, 2007)

...the Queen of Hearts? 

White rabbit? Alice?

I dunno. Suggestions.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 18, 2007)

Barinax said:


> ...the Queen of Hearts?
> 
> White rabbit? Alice?
> 
> I dunno. Suggestions.



Actually I don't think I have ever gotten this much help from people in this thread before, thanks for the support guys. I am looking over all of these things and trying to come up with something original sounding enough and yet plausible in a realistic sense. 

I actually thought about the the idea of using Alice in Wonderland, but its very commonly used and it gets trite to see things used like that because it seems a bit pretentious some of the time.


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## Antenox (Sep 18, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Actually I don't think I have ever gotten this much help from people in this thread before, thanks for the support guys. I am looking over all of these things and trying to come up with something original sounding enough and yet plausible in a realistic sense.
> 
> I actually thought about the the idea of using Alice in Wonderland, but its very commonly used and it gets trite to see things used like that because it seems a bit pretentious some of the time.


I'd also suggest looking up Air Force/Navy/Marine fighter pilot callsigns.


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## Prince Leon (Sep 18, 2007)

I'm actually in the middle of having a novel/story of mine take over my mind and is screaming at me to write it. It's like a mix of witchcraft/witches with my own twist coupled with gods and goddesses mainly from Greek mythos but some others as well.

Though yet again, as always, naming characters (and choosing which god/goddess names to use) is a pain in ass.


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## Einstein (Sep 18, 2007)

You really think so? I think naming somebody could be one of the easiest things in a story?


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## Prince Leon (Sep 18, 2007)

For me it's not hard, it's just a pain some times when I'm looking for a specific meaning to be linked to a character name. This specific story is slightly moreso than others because for some of the characters I'm using the names of gods/goddesses, some with alterations and such.

Then again people I think it's just in my head when in reality my naming my characters is probably easier than I think it is.


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## Noah (Sep 18, 2007)

I find that naming characters is one of my favorite parts. I have 3 or 4 stories that don't even have a plot outside of who the main characters are and what their world is like, just because I had an idea and needed to name a few people. What type of character are you trying to fit a name to?


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## Prince Leon (Sep 18, 2007)

Well, I'm not really having a "problem" per se at the moment (I actually like the naming process, with characters, places, etc.). But right now I'm naming five guys who are apart of a group of children I am tentatively calling "The Blessed Children". The first five are already done which are the girls. They are: Callista, Priscilla, Harmonia, Morrigan, and Selene.

The guys I have named so far are: Shannon, Hermes, Adonis, and Ganymede.

Basically I'm thinking of which gods would be good to put into a young person/god. I hope that was understandable. :sweat


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## Einstein (Sep 18, 2007)

Prince Leon said:


> For me it's not hard, it's just a pain some times when I'm looking for a specific meaning to be linked to a character name. This specific story is slightly moreso than others because for some of the characters I'm using the names of gods/goddesses, some with alterations and such.
> 
> Then again people I think it's just in my head when in reality my naming my characters is probably easier than I think it is.


I don't look for meanings, unless it's a serious fantasy/philosophy story I'm writing (because usually the MC's have names that mean "Hero" and the like, and I don't write those often. The reason I don't look for meanings nor advise others to do so is because it's too cliched, and parents hardly ever look at meanings when they name their kids. If they do, their kids never really live up to the meaning. The looking up of meanings of names is simply for fun so you can see if you DID live up to your name.

My name is Ashanti. My name is the name of an african tribe. I am black, but I am in no way an African tribe. One of my middle names means pity. I fucking hate pity, in any form. My other name means "my God is a vow". I'm an athiest. My last name means son of Anders; nobody in my family has the name Anders- or Andrew for that matter. I know for a fact my parents thought of none of that when they named me, except for maybe my first name, probably because of self-pride. See what I mean?

If you look for meanings, that fine, I just don't because of the reality that names aren't chosen off of them.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 18, 2007)

Most of the names I come up with aren't meant to have meaning. They're just picked at random. I stake little meaning in names usually. The only characters who I can think of that have meaning in their names are Gohei Kanahara (Which apparently part of it can be broken into the word for soldier, which he happens to be. His last name apparently means Golden Meadow. Which is appropriate because his eyes are golden) and Aoi ( Her eyes are blue thus the japanese word for blue.) Hell I don't even speak Japanese and these things came out. Lucky bastard am I.

Well I knew what I was doing when I named Aoi.


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## Noah (Sep 18, 2007)

Prince Leon said:


> Well, I'm not really having a "problem" per se at the moment (I actually like the naming process, with characters, places, etc.). But right now I'm naming five guys who are apart of a group of children I am tentatively calling "The Blessed Children". The first five are already done which are the girls. They are: Callista, Priscilla, Harmonia, Morrigan, and Selene.
> 
> The guys I have named so far are: Shannon, Hermes, Adonis, and Ganymede.
> 
> Basically I'm thinking of which gods would be good to put into a young person/god. I hope that was understandable. :sweat



I'm not really sure where Priscilla and Shannon are from, but I suggest Mordred. Why? Because Mordred is a friggin' great name that doesn't have a place in any of my stuff. 

Off the top of my head though: Chulainn, Donn, Osiris, Forseti, Ajax, Surt (or Surtr/Surtur), Ogmos (or Ogmios).

I don't know what you're looking for in the last male name, but those are a few I came up with just now. Most of them are celtic, if you need to look them up. I'm not really a fan of using Greek or Roman gods, because they tend to get spotted easier than Celtic, Mayan or Persian ones. Mayan ones would look silly grouped with the others and the Persian ones I know are more or less evil. With the exception of Morrigan, none of your other names really seem like they're meant to be darker characters.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 18, 2007)

Thanks for the earlier help everyone. I decided to go with the suites of the cards. So its going to be like Diamond, Club, Spade, and Heart. The leader who gives them orders from the base is called The Dealer or Dealer, I haven't decided yet. I considered all of my little options with the naming of these things and these seemed best.


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## Einstein (Sep 18, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Thanks for the earlier help everyone. I decided to go with the suites of the cards. So its going to be like Diamond, Club, Spade, and Heart. The leader who gives them orders from the base is called The Dealer or Dealer, I haven't decided yet. I considered all of my little options with the naming of these things and these seemed best.



Dealer? Why not King, Queen, Jack, Joker, or Ace?

Just asking.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 18, 2007)

Elwood said:


> Dealer? Why not King, Queen, Jack, Joker, or Ace?
> 
> Just asking.



Well because the whole card thing like that is done way too often, and besides I like the Suites better. They don't imply gender or rank as much, because for the most part the people are the same rank. 

The Dealer is the guy who gives out the cards at the table, which is why I made it that. And the base is simply referred to as The House...as in the Casino.


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## Barinax (Sep 18, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I actually thought about the the idea of using Alice in Wonderland, but its very commonly used and it gets trite to see things used like that because it seems a bit pretentious some of the time.


I suppose so.



Red_Squirrel said:


> I find that naming characters is one of my favorite parts.


Yes indeed...



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Thanks for the earlier help everyone. I decided to go with the suites of the cards. So its going to be like Diamond, Club, Spade, and Heart. The leader who gives them orders from the base is called The Dealer or Dealer, I haven't decided yet. I considered all of my little options with the naming of these things and these seemed best.


Ahh. I'd personally go with "The Dealer" but that's all up to you.


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## Einstein (Sep 18, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well because the whole card thing like that is done way too often, and besides I like the Suites better. They don't imply gender or rank as much, because for the most part the people are the same rank.
> 
> The Dealer is the guy who gives out the cards at the table, which is why I made it that. And the base is simply referred to as The House...as in the Casino.


Well, codenames aren't really my forte, which was why I asked. Any of the names would work, imo.


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## Noah (Sep 18, 2007)

What about 'The House' ? Like "We just got a new assignment from The House." "We need to report back to The House." "The House always wins(ohshit corny line ftw)."

...no? Aww, nuts.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 18, 2007)

Red_Squirrel said:


> What about 'The House' ? Like "We just got a new assignment from The House." "We need to report back to The House." "The House always wins(ohshit corny line ftw)."
> 
> ...no? Aww, nuts.



I thought about that, but I liked the Dealer better and still wanted to "The House" for something. So I was thinking the base or maybe like calling the organization that.


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## Antenox (Sep 19, 2007)

Naming is THE hardest part of the story for me, short of actually writing the story.  But I've settled on a pretty nice cast of characters with a mix of Classical Roman/Greek style names and modern names. I dare not change their names, because it took me FOREVER to come up with this many that I like.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 19, 2007)

Antenox said:


> Naming is THE hardest part of the story for me, short of actually writing the story.  But I've settled on a pretty nice cast of characters with a mix of Classical Roman/Greek style names and modern names. I dare not change their names, because it took me FOREVER to come up with this many that I like.



I love naming my characters, although I don't go through many special processes to name them and the like. I think that my favorite names I have used so far are Persephanie and Dee.


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## Antenox (Sep 19, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I love naming my characters, although I don't go through many special processes to name them and the like. I think that my favorite names I have used so far are Persephanie and Dee.


For me it's hard because I like to create my own worlds, and bunching together random syllables is no good way to come up with names, and neither is using names which have a significant resonance in reality (e.g. mythical names, names used in other books or TV shows or movies, etc.).
Using Roman/Greek-type names (and, to an extent, Hebrew names) is easy because then the names don't look so off-the-wall fantastical (not like Steven Erikson's names, yegads!), but neither do they seem too "modern" or contemporary. Plus, because I mainly write about nobility, Roman-style names sound very classy.


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## Prince Leon (Sep 19, 2007)

Elwood said:


> I don't look for meanings, unless it's a serious fantasy/philosophy story I'm writing (because usually the MC's have names that mean "Hero" and the like, and I don't write those often. The reason I don't look for meanings nor advise others to do so is because it's too cliched, and parents hardly ever look at meanings when they name their kids. If they do, their kids never really live up to the meaning. The looking up of meanings of names is simply for fun so you can see if you DID live up to your name.
> 
> My name is Ashanti. My name is the name of an african tribe. I am black, but I am in no way an African tribe. One of my middle names means pity. I fucking hate pity, in any form. My other name means "my God is a vow". I'm an athiest. My last name means son of Anders; nobody in my family has the name Anders- or Andrew for that matter. I know for a fact my parents thought of none of that when they named me, except for maybe my first name, probably because of self-pride. See what I mean?
> 
> If you look for meanings, that fine, I just don't because of the reality that names aren't chosen off of them.



The funny thing is that when I do choose names on my own at first without even checking on the meaning I manage to name the character with the very same name I want the meaning for. I've had that happen to me more than a few times already. 

Usually the meanings I have range in relevance from very high to very low. Though I don't usually go out of my way to find them (I have another story where I didn't really concern myself with it) unless the character is supposed to represent someone or something specific.



Red_Squirrel said:


> I'm not really sure where Priscilla and Shannon are from, but I suggest Mordred. Why? Because Mordred is a friggin' great name that doesn't have a place in any of my stuff.
> 
> Off the top of my head though: Chulainn, Donn, Osiris, Forseti, Ajax, Surt (or Surtr/Surtur), Ogmos (or Ogmios).
> 
> I don't know what you're looking for in the last male name, but those are a few I came up with just now. Most of them are celtic, if you need to look them up. I'm not really a fan of using Greek or Roman gods, because they tend to get spotted easier than Celtic, Mayan or Persian ones. Mayan ones would look silly grouped with the others and the Persian ones I know are more or less evil. With the exception of Morrigan, none of your other names really seem like they're meant to be darker characters.



Thanks for the suggestions! Mordred really is an interesting one when I think about it as well.  Another name I thought of was Amaethon, a celtic deity from Welsh mythos. I'm also considering changing Ganymede to Forseti.

As for Priscilla, her other name is Terra. Shannon's other name is Chronos.

As for the last statement, of the ten children at least seven of them are supposed to be "dark" or rather possess a hatred for humans and as a result be hostile to them in any way possible.


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## Caladan Brood (Sep 19, 2007)

Of all the random names thrown out so far......
Osiris is a pretty recognisable name.
Forseti less so, but I still do.
Ajax is pretty recognisable too.
Mordred....isn't that the name of King's Arthur's son?
Chronos......is a modification of Kronos, the father of greek gods....

I don't like taking the names of gods.
lack of creativity.
unless its some completely obscure god no one's heard of.


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## Prince Leon (Sep 19, 2007)

I wouldn't say that using a name or an alteration of one already known is a "lack of creativity". If it was then the majority of writers would be guilty of that as I doubt anyone can come up with a full cast of names that haven't been seen before, god/goddess or not. 

In most cases the god/goddess name isn't their first name anyway. More like it's something bestowed upon them at birth. Bleh, I'm still working them out anyway so nothing is absolutely final.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 19, 2007)

Just a quick question, I am thinking about starting a writing group, but I can't decide whether to base it online or offline. I am guessing both have advantages but I just can't decide which one suites me better. 

On one hand the membership numbers could soar online. 

But interpersonal interaction would be a nice thing to have in a writers group too.


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## Einstein (Sep 20, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Just a quick question, I am thinking about starting a writing group, but I can't decide whether to base it online or offline. I am guessing both have advantages but I just can't decide which one suites me better.
> 
> On one hand the membership numbers could soar online.
> 
> But interpersonal interaction would be a nice thing to have in a writers group too.


It depends on which one you value more- seeing people or simply hearing them?

I would have a long, drawn out pro-and-con thingy, but I've got to get my siblings ready for school b/c my mother is sick.


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## Tyrael (Sep 20, 2007)

My advice would be a offline group, interaction is much easier in person I find, but as the post above says, it depends on what you are aiming for.

On the subject of naming characters(I am awful at it) I take a bit of a Dune approach. Most of my characters have really plain names then you get the odd really strange one. I find naming countries and organisations just as hard.


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## Trov (Sep 20, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Just a quick question, I am thinking about starting a writing group, but I can't decide whether to base it online or offline. I am guessing both have advantages but I just can't decide which one suites me better.
> 
> On one hand the membership numbers could soar online.
> 
> But interpersonal interaction would be a nice thing to have in a writers group too.



You could do both. Have an online community along with an offline one that communicates interchangeably.  Although if thats the case, you probably would be better off starting it offline then going for online to build upon it.

As for names. I like to look for the meanings of names and see if they mean the same for the character. Tristan for example means(according to a website) Deceiver, shapeshifter, lover. I named one of my characters that because while he isn't evil, he's often playful and loves to deceive people. He's a liar(most of which is just petty) and changes to suit  the situation.

There are other times when I've pulled last names out of a thesaraus as well.

But other times I just name them regular old names you'd normally would hear and notice. I just make sure to keep the name simple and easy to pronounce.


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## confusion the waitress (Sep 21, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Just a quick question, I am thinking about starting a writing group, but I can't decide whether to base it online or offline. I am guessing both have advantages but I just can't decide which one suites me better.
> 
> On one hand the membership numbers could soar online.
> 
> But interpersonal interaction would be a nice thing to have in a writers group too.



You could try starting a group offline, and if it works, expand it _to_ an online group. You'd get the best of both worlds that way, because the people in your offline group could also join the online group.

On topic: For me, naming characters is either really, really easy or really, really hard. I can spend days agonizing over the name of some minor character who's probably only going to be mentioned twice. I also have a hard time with last names (especially in fantasy stories) and, in fantasy stories, male names. Maybe it's just because I'm a girl, but I have an ample supply of female names stored away for virtually any occassion. I think it's much harder to find a guy's name that isn't too common yet isn't too cheesy.

Random question: I'm writing a fantasy/sci-fi steampunk sort of thing, and I'm torn between two names for the main male character: Tranz and Issador. I like Tranz much better, but it doesn't fit with the kind of old-fashioned names I have for my other characters.

Also, is Luticus Errol a really cheesy name for a bad guy?(It's pronouned LOO-ti-kus with the 'i' being short; "Errol" is pronounced with a short 'e', a bit like AIR-ole) He's a very patient, cold, methodical villian who masks his true nature behind a facade of mildness and civility. If you think it sucks _and_ you can suggest something better, feel free to let me know.


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## Caladan Brood (Sep 21, 2007)

Hmm...isn't there an owl in harry potter called errol? 

Luticus sounds cool. change the 2nd name though.
For scifi.....I prefer Tranz. issador sounds fantasy-ish.


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## Juubi (Sep 21, 2007)

I just found this thread, lol. Anyway, I'm planning on writing a book soon, and I'm still somewhat in the brainstorming stages right now.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 23, 2007)

Good news everyone, I just finished making that forum I told you all about. I worked on it for a little while ironing things out and seeing what would work. I wanted to just make sure that I didn't leave too much out, but I plan to add more things later and break things up as needed. 

If anyone wants to check it out or join up the link is


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 24, 2007)

zenmusic17 said:


> ^^ Definitely gonna be on that forum soon enough CTK. Awesome job.
> 
> @confusion the waitress
> I'd definitely agree on the Tranz bit. Perhaps, you could merge the two into something like Tranzador to keep the old fashion feel and use Tranz as a nickname? Or add something on to the "Tranz" bit to make it old fashioned? Just some ideas for ya, even if they are kinda simple. >.<



Thanks, and I should have the means to take care of it and help it grow, I am going to start advertising around and seeing if I can get more members.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 24, 2007)

Bump! 

I was just wondering how this looks as a start to a story...


*Spoiler*: __ 





Ashley was ready for the big band trip. Not only did this trip mean and a half off from school. This trip signified freedom and an escape from the ordinary. It was just coming into mid-October and already school was starting to become a drag. When this year had started, everyone had told her that her Junior Year would be one of her most important.


All this talk of standardized tests and college applications was making her sick. She was sick of her friend?s gabbing on about the same things over and over again. Like the way December would tell the story about how she grew boobs over the summer. 


This trip promised to be an escape from all of that, even if just for a short while. And then there was the band aspect of the whole thing. Probably one of the few things that Ashley took pride in was her ability to play music. She was pretty well versed in piano, guitar and she played clarinet for the band. Their school band had come a pretty long way. They?d gotten this free trip to the islands for a competition based on sheer skill alone. 




Go easy on me, I'm pretty bad at third person as I don't generally write the stuff for extended periods of time. But I just want a little insight.


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## Tyrael (Sep 24, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Bump!
> 
> I was just wondering how this looks as a start to a story...
> 
> ...




Is it going to be a short story? novella? novel? It does build up a good sense of character quickly, though. Oh and I think you missed out two words in the second sentences, I've put them in bold so u can edit it back as you see fit.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 24, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Is it going to be a short story? novella? novel? It does build up a good sense of character quickly, though. Oh and I think you missed out two words in the second sentences, I've put them in bold so u can edit it back as you see fit.



Alright! Thanks. It's going to be a novel. I'm not sure it seems to build fast. And like I said I am out of practice with third person and it just seems all awkwardly paced to me.


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## Tyrael (Sep 24, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Alright! Thanks. It's going to be a novel. I'm not sure it seems to build fast. And like I said I am out of practice with third person and it just seems all awkwardly paced to me.



Pacing. My arch nemesis.

Yeah, if it is a novel you may require slightly more build up to the fact she is going away. It's always good to have some ominous build up only to then reveal to the reader that the event was not so momentous and you were being hyperbolic, but that's just me, you should stick to your own style. If you don't like third person I would advise you not to force yourself to write in it. Or you can see it as experience to make yourself more versatile. I'm going to stop typing in case I contradict myself again. Oops, too late.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 24, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Pacing. My arch nemesis.
> 
> Yeah, if it is a novel you may require slightly more build up to the fact she is going away. It's always good to have some ominous build up only to then reveal to the reader that the event was not so momentous and you were being hyperbolic, but that's just me, you should stick to your own style. If you don't like third person I would advise you not to force yourself to write in it. Or you can see it as experience to make yourself more versatile. I'm going to stop typing in case I contradict myself again. Oops, too late.



Thing is, this story needs to be in third person because I need multiple view points to make it work. I don't like alternating first person narrators and its a huge turn off for me when I am reading or writing a story. 

Generally with the rest of my series there is one narrator the whole way through. That works all fine because there's such a small  cast in those, this story is kind of my dry run for what comes later. Because there won't be a way for me to write in first person in the stories later. The cast will be much larger.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 24, 2007)

Alright, here's the updated story. I feel more comfortable with this one. Check it out please!



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tyrael (Sep 25, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> anyway,? *we* started to slow down



You switched into first person in the above sentence, which I'm guessing was not intentional, and you've also still not changed the "not only mean and a half off of school"

Other than that, however, I cannot really falut what you have done, the scene is being set and the hints you give towards other potential links to the storyline works well. It's not a type of novel I often read so I hope that my comments are helpful, rather than ignorant.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 25, 2007)

Yeah that was a mistake. I need to actually go back and fix a lot of things in that story. But I think that the newer version will be much more likable. I actually tried for more suspense by trying to not give everything away and by letting things come out as they flow. 

Its a hard balance to keep, because a lot of the time you will not be sure if you really need to tell something or if it can be shown later. Telling is very easy to do for the most part and its tempting to do it. Showing might take longer but there's a bigger pay off in the end. 

I am planning on fixing those mistakes and pretty much have them all marked down. I will post the updated story later.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 26, 2007)

Here it is:











*Spoiler*: __ 



            Ashley glanced over at her mom in the driver?s seat of the car. The early autumn Texas wind whipped around them, pulling through their hair like weightless unseen fingers. She knew that mom loved to drive around with the top down. This was probably the first time in a while it hadn?t been too hot and utterly uncomfortable to do it. 


 Her mom?s jade eyes were hidden behind those big movie star style sunglasses. When mom finally turned towards her with a smile on her face she was a little surprised, ?I?m sorry about how I acted the other day.?


            Ashley?s lips twisted into a little smirk, her eyes peeking out from her dyed red bangs, ?I know,? she said shifting in her seat a little and tugging at the bottom of her plaid skirt, ?but you and Dad got in that fight about it.?


            With a smile, her mother looked at her again and said, ?Don?t worry?your father hardly argues back with me anyway,? they started to slow down for our turn as she put her lip to her finger, ?I suppose that?s why it pisses me off so much.?


            When Ashley looked back this at her mother this next time all that she could see was the brilliant red mass of hair whipping at her Mom?s face. A car pulled up along side them with thumping music playing and Ashley ignored it, ?You don?t like the fact that he _doesn?t_ argue??


            ?Well?? 


            ?That?s really okay, Mom?that was a rhetorical question,? Ashley shook her head and sighed. This was one of the main reasons she was glad about what today was and what today meant. 


            The car slowed as they came into the school zone. The turn for her school was right up ahead and it seemed that there were a lot of cars, especially for a Sunday afternoon. 


            The sky behind the large school building was that deep midday blue. Here and there you?d see a wispy cloud. But it was pretty much the perfect summer day. Her Mom pulled the car off to the side of the road so that two tires were down on the grassy shoulder. At the moment the car stopped Ashley poised her self with hands down on either side of the seat and sprung up over the door and out of the car. She hit the ground running headed back for the trunk 


            ?_Juliana Ashley Caynon_! What did I tell you about jumping out of the car before I come to a complete stop?? her mother asked as she turned off the ignition and unlocked the trunk. 


            Ashley rolled her eyes, ?Mom?someone might hear you?? she opened the trunk and began to retrieve her things.


            Her mother stepped out and flipped her glasses up onto her head, her copper colored hair was pulled back a little by them as she did this, ?I thought that you were going to bring that guitar??


            ?My Stratocaster?? Ashley gave her mom a half puzzled look, ?That thing is worth too much to just be toting around.?


            Her mom shrugged, ?I honestly wouldn?t know, Darling,? they started to cross the street together, ?Claudia and Pellegri just found it and figured you?d like it,? she added. 


            As they walked up to the school they neared three buses parked in a line across the front of the building. Several other students and parents were heading inside. But right in the middle of the driveway for the school, Ashley?s Mom grabbed her by the arm and stopped her. 


            ?I don?t know if you?re ready for your band trip yet,? her voice suddenly showing deep concern, ?but I wanted you to know I am really worried, you just got out of the hospital a while ago and if _anything_ should go wrong just call us and we will be right there.? She paused, ?Okay, Honey??


            ?I know Mom,? Ashley kissed her mother on the side of the cheek. The thing was Ashley was in fact ready for the big band trip. Not only did this trip mean a week and a half off from school. This trip signified freedom and an escape from the ordinary. 


            It was just coming into mid-November and already school was starting to become a drag. When this year had started, everyone had told her that her Junior Year would be one of her most important.


            All this talk of standardized tests and college applications was 

making her sick. She was sick of her friend?s gabbing on about the same things over and over again. Like the way December would tell the story about how she grew boobs over the summer. 


            This trip promised to be an escape from all of that, even if just for a short while. And then there was the band aspect of the whole thing. Probably one of the few things that Ashley took pride in was her ability to play music. She was pretty well versed in piano, guitar and she played clarinet for the band. Their school band had come a pretty long way. They?d gotten this free trip to the islands for a competition based on sheer skill alone.


            As they moved between the buses her mother looked her over, ?You want some help with all of that??


            ?I can do it,? Ashley answered in matter-of-a-fact.


            Ms. Howard, one of the teachers who would be going on the trip called out from the side of the bus, ?You can just leave your bags here to be loaded?? her yellow sweater seemed to catch the sun until the point it was glowing itself. 


            With a slight smile, the kind someone would give just to be polite, Ashley sat her bags on the side of the bus with the row of other bags. She kept her purse and backpack dangling from her body. 


            When she turned back her mother was right behind her, ?Well I guess this is it??


            Ashley couldn?t look her mom in the eyes, she knew there would be a sharp hint of tears there. The way the edges of your eyes would sparkle when the tears gathered and when it came to crying, that was pretty much the point of no return. She really hated to see her mother cry. 


            Her mother?s fingers were cold as she touched her neck, she pulled down at Ashley?s collar and adjusted her necklaces. Ashley always wore a lot of different necklaces, ?I know you?ll knock them dead out there,? she started, ?God, I wish I could be there to see it.?


            ?Really Mom, its okay?most of the parents aren?t coming,? Ashley answered. 


            Her mom glanced down a little, ?I know, I know,? she looked back into Ashley?s face and sniffled, Ashley averted her eyes, ?But never forget that we?re so proud of you,? she placed her hands on the side of Ashley?s head and ran her hands down smoothing the teenager?s maroon hair to down onto her puffy cheeks. 


            ?I know, Mom,? she pulled back Ashley pulled back shyly and nodded with a smile, looking her Mom in the eyes for the first time in a while. 


            At that moment her mother threw her arms around Ashley?s neck and pulled her in for a big hug, ?Be good,? she said.


            ?I will.? 


            Her mother let her go and turned to walk back down through the buses with her keys in hand. The small green button down sweater that her mother wore, the kind that only covered the bust was blowing around now. Her mother?s yellow checkered sun dress whipped in the wind too as if to give one last backward wave.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 26, 2007)

*POST TOO LONG [extended]

*
*Spoiler*: __ 




Perry had been forced out of the bed at the crack of dawn. His mother was a self proclaimed preparation freak. She always believed in being punctual and being over prepared. Of course, she would say that one could _never_ be over prepared. 


 Sometimes Perry wished that he could have that normal life. With the normal mom who had her normal concerns. His mom had made sure to 

pack just a whole bag with nothing but food in it. 


 It was true that he?d never really been away from home. He was only fifteen and would be turning sixteen in a few months. The fact that he was allowed to go on this trip had come as a shock to him. His mom was notorious for not letting him do anything. 


 Realistically, he knew that it would take some convincing on his part to come on this trip. And that he would have to enlist his father?s help. But it meant everything for him to go on this trip just because he knew, he hoped, he prayed that she would be there. 


 Even now as he sat in the cafeteria surrounded by friends he wasn?t listening to a word they were saying. He was brimming over with anticipation, the way a half frozen can of soda spills over. He?d known her every since he could remember. She was his first and best friend. The first girl to kiss him even though they were only three at the time.


 He leaned down hard on the table trying to lift himself to look out the large window. It was hard to see between the buses and if he could just catch a glimpse of her that would ease a lot of the stress.


_Maybe she wasn?t coming._


 To him, she was that flashlight in a dark time. She was comfort the way a blanket was to a kid. And it was like they were destined to be friends. Their fathers had been best friends since Elementary School. 


 Perry shut his eyes and just tried to envision her, the people talking around him became white noise and all he could see was that face. Her puffy cheeks under those deep forest green eyes. The way her cherry colored bangs covered her forehead. She had skin that was the color of light chocolate milk and full lips. It was a miracle no other guys had scooped her up.


            A soft voice called out to him rousing him from his daydream, ?Perry,? it came in a sing song tone.


            ?Hey December,? he answered.


            ?Yeah,? she said, ?I?ve been trying to get your damn attention from my table for like ten minutes!?


            ?Sorry,? he apologized.


            ?You know I shouldn?t even be over here talking to your broke ass?? she went on.


 December was what one would consider one of the popular people. She wasn?t top of the totem pole, but she was pretty high up there and often times considered one of the prettiest Junior girls. She was a blue eyed blonde, with long legs that she?d proudly show off and she?d gone out and bought herself new shirts just to boast the fact that she?d spent the summer growing tits. 


 ?My dad insisted that I give you this,? December held out her hand and as Perry reached up, she dropped something onto the table, ?Ugh, it doesn?t mean you can touch me??


            Perry rolled his eyes, ?What is it?? he asked as he lifted the small device off the table. 


            ?It?s a walkie-talkie?in case we get lost and need help,? December answered.


            ?Thanks,? Perry said, ?Why are our parents so worried, anyway??


 ?Who the Hell knows,? December said, ?My Dad?s probably overprotective because he knows what kind of evil tricky little asshole he was as a kid.?


 A sultry voice came from behind Perry, ?It seems to run in the family?? Perry looked back to see Ashley standing behind him. Her hands down on her hips, ?What are you doing over here December?? she asked, ?Did someone do the skank call??


 ?Ha-ha,? December said in a sarcastic tone, ?No, I just came to bring you a walkie-talkie, you no style having whore?? her hand went out with the device in it. Ashley reached out and snatched it from her.


 December jumped a little at the speed at which Ashley moved to grab the small ear piece walkie talkie. She quickly regained her composure. 


 Perry had to admit that December only acted this rotten at school. When they were out other places she pretty much acted normal. Ashley was a different story, she was on the defensive with December most of the time because of the two faces that she showed. 


            ?Okay, so on the off chance that we need to speak to each other, these things are connected,? December said.


            Ashley rolled her eyes, ?Let me guess, your parents are all worried over this trip too??


 With a sigh December shook her head, her perfectly straight blonde hair wiggled only slightly, ?All they ever do is worry.?


 The small device was barely big enough to fit in an ear and had a mic that hooked out, Ashley turned over in her hands several times, ?Well if the plane goes down over water we can use your knockers as a floatation device?? she said not looking up.


 December slammed her hands down at her side, ?Jealous!? she said in a sing song tone and then she turned and stormed off. 


 Finally he was alone with Ashley, he got closer to her trying his best to just look her in the face. She glanced up at him with a sweet smile, her lips spread thin, ?So you excited.?


Perry smiled real big and closed his eyes, in his heads day dreams of holding her under a starry night sky played. His fingers went into his hair instinctively, ?Of course.?


Ashley turned to step away, her legs frozen mid stride and her skirt pulled tight. He tried to keep from checking her out. She turned back slightly with one side of her hair tossed over her shoulder, ?I?m going to go to the rest room and then to the band hall??


He nodded, ?I?ll walk with you to the band hall?if you want??


 ?Sure, let me go to the bathroom first,? her voice was cheerful now. Before she stepped off she asked, ?Have you seen Myrissa or Annabelle??


?Not yet,? he answered.


?No matter,? she said, ?they?re bound to be here.?


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## karaseechakra (Sep 26, 2007)

i have an idea for my first novel but i havent started it yet im planning on starting it soon though. the plot is basicly a girl who has an ordonary life until she meets a guy and he takes her on holoday (not sure where but it'll be abrord)
anyway so he steals her money and all her things so shes stranded on a remote island and cant get home. she then goes exploring and finds a hidin(sp?) cave and she finds a staff there that has loads of decoration an stuff on and shes drawn towards it and when she touches it she goes in to an alternate universe. thats all i've worked out so far please dont steal my plot ^^;


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## Tyrael (Sep 27, 2007)

^Make the island unnamed through the book, it might make things more mysterious.

CTK-apart from the odd typo it works well-maybe describe the settings slightly more when inside the building.

What is everyone's average output? I am slightly worried as I normally only get about half an A4 page a day done.


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## karaseechakra (Sep 27, 2007)

i hope to get about 1-2 A4 sheets done a day. i started it so heres the first part i havent finnished this part yet i got tyerd last night and stopped in the middle sorry about the spelling ^^;

*Spoiler*: __ 



Chloe Rushton was an ordinary 15 year old girl she had an ordinary house an ordinary family and went to an ordinary school. She was just like any other high schooler, except, she was one of the only girls in her year to still be single. The lunch bell had just gone and Chloe already knew where she was going, the same as every day, she was going to the library. She put away her history book and pencil case, threw her bag over her shoulder and made her way down the stairs towards the library. She didn't talk to anyone on the way she just walked as quickly as she could avoiding glances from people who didn't like her, and that was quite a lot. She went through the door that led to the library, got her favorite book out and hung up her bag and coat on a hook. She sat down on the same table that she always did on her own at the back of the room, tucked a loose piece of her long, wavy brown hair behind her ear and began reading. Before  she had even finished a page, a boy who she had never seen before sat at the chair opposite her and got out his own book. Chloe looked at him curiously, he looked up at her then she looked down and started blushing, his blue eyes were the lightest she had ever seen and his skin was so perfect and matched his long dark blonde hair that hung over one eye. He had to be at least a year older than her. He wasn't from her year as she had never seen him before. She looked back at her book and started reading again. By the end of lunch they had still not spoken. The bell went and Chloe made her way to geography. She wasn't listening to the teacher, how could she, she was in a world of her own that afternoon and because of it the teacher asked her to stay behind. At the end of the lesson she put her books away and went to the teachers desk, Chloe asked what her geography teacher, Miss Mott, wanted to see her about,
?Chloe whats wrong with you today your normally really active and answer all of my questions, you seem distracted? 
Chloe just gave her teacher a blank look, she didn't think that she was day-dreaming that much


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## Einstein (Sep 28, 2007)

Heh... my English teacher didn't know what second person was.. I had to bring her a book with second person in it, she didn't even believe it existed.. I aught to be the one teaching the damn class...

Great story, CTK, 'nuff said.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 28, 2007)

Thanks, I haven't really had much time to work on the story lately. But I guess that I will this weekend if I can think of anything.


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## Tyrael (Sep 29, 2007)

Characterisation. How many people write short stories with characters in them, unrelating to the main story, purely so that you, the author has a greater grip of it? I find it an interesting idea, as well as simulating an interview with a character.


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## Einstein (Sep 29, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Characterisation. How many people write short stories with characters in them, unrelating to the main story, purely so that you, the author has a greater grip of it? I find it an interesting idea, as well as simulating an interview with a character.


You mean, writing separate stories as to see how a certain character would act in different situations? I don't write stories, I just fill out little worksheet type things about biographies/traits/the like. It's way shorter than a story, but you have to think about it too.

EDIT: an example of such is in my blog.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 29, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Characterisation. How many people write short stories with characters in them, unrelating to the main story, purely so that you, the author has a greater grip of it? I find it an interesting idea, as well as simulating an interview with a character.



I have done that before. I did it so much with one character that a lot of the little stories became chapters in a larger story. 

I am working on a series, there's an undetermined amount stories that it will take to complete. I sometimes think of of my characters in other situations, but I normally don't write them anymore.


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## Caladan Brood (Sep 30, 2007)

What do people think of my 2nd last blog...


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## Tyrael (Oct 4, 2007)

On characterisation, Elwood's idea is a gd one, an interesting method and the little details do make characters a lot more real, even if you never really use them in writing. I do find that characters are really interesting when you take them out of their comfort zone and make them behave in someway that is contrary to the way they are normally presented. Then again that's more probably territory for the actual story.

Also karaseechakra, you might want to proof read your story, the syntax and grammar could use some work. Also I would recommend using somewhat larger a vocabulary and make the text more descriptive, the story may have somewhat of a more professional look. Also look at your paragraphing. Or ignore my advice, I'm beginning to feel like I'm getting a bit condescending.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 4, 2007)

I need to work on my area description. I'm pretty bad at describing background effect.


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## Tyrael (Oct 4, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I need to work on my area description. I'm pretty bad at describing background effect.



Depending on genre and desired effect you only need to give a very brief description often, then again learning to describe area more effectively is not going to hurt your writing.


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## The Thieving Queen (Oct 9, 2007)

Luneas said:


> I need to work on my area description. I'm pretty bad at describing background effect.


Use your senses. Like you smell some flowers and the musty smell of a car exhaust. That probably means a busy street and  maybe some potted plants. Well, why would they be together, what's a potted plant doing near a street? A flowershop with a display out side, or a flower rack outside a newsagents with strong smell of spices wafting out after the daydreaming employee let the box end rip.

Pathetic fallacy is <3 too.

I've been reading so much Tolkien lately, my well of inspiration is overflowing.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 9, 2007)

Smell is the wrong example to use on me. My sense of smell is horrible. Anyway, my sensation of my surroundings are usually really dull so I find it hard to express setting. My writing tends to emphasize character to character action rather then character to environment action. I spend far too much time in my mind.


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## Gaawa-chan (Oct 10, 2007)

Use verbs in your descriptions.  Overdone adjectives get boring after awhile...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 10, 2007)

Gaawa-chan said:


> Use verbs in your descriptions.  Overdone adjectives get boring after awhile...



Adverbs kill the mood almost always when they are used to constantly describe, especially when they state the unnecessary or the obvious:

_"Stop," Tim yelled loudly. _

Yet almost all writers I know use them and have to go edit them out in a draft.


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## Caladan Brood (Oct 10, 2007)

Or if you're Cecilia Dart-Thornton, you use them, but they're not edited out.
Not a single blipping one.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 10, 2007)

U-Borat said:


> Or if you're Cecilia Dart-Thornton, you use them, but they're not edited out.
> Not a single blipping one.



Who is she? 

Now I have to look up her writing? 

It must look like a Hardy Boys book...


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## Lord Yu (Oct 10, 2007)

I finally finished what I'd currently the tenth chapter. I'd estimate the story to about one/third done.


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## Gaawa-chan (Oct 11, 2007)

Oh, yes.  Adverbs are terrible if overdone...

Here's a question.
I have trouble lengthening my pieces- meaning I rush through things and it's always a pain to have to go back and add more and more...
Any ideas as to how I should slow myself down?  I don't like the way it screws with my fluency...


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## Lord Yu (Oct 11, 2007)

I have that problem too. I get so excited about certain parts that I go through things too fast. Sometimes ideas just don't pan out and I end up jetting through certain places too fast due to forgetting where I was going.


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## Caladan Brood (Oct 11, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Who is she?
> 
> Now I have to look up her writing?
> 
> It must look like a Hardy Boys book...



You dont want to look up her writing, trust me.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 11, 2007)

Lol, I started to look for her in the book store tonight, but then this hot girl distracted me with a backless shirt she was wearing...


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## Gaawa-chan (Oct 11, 2007)

Exactly, Luneas!  It's horrid!


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## The Thieving Queen (Oct 12, 2007)

Oh good evening Wall, how are you this fine dusk? How nice of you to stop me in my tracks. ):<

I suddenly don't like the setting, and beings that inhabit a part of it, beucause I feel someone is going to think I'm just dragging on the same idea that's been done a million times, even though I'm focusing the characters I've got in the forest as green people, you know people that are the personification of nature.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 12, 2007)

Today or the other night, I realized I dislike writing explosive super power battles, but I like super powerful characters. Such a conundrum.


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## Sasori-puppet#111 (Oct 12, 2007)

Finally i've found a place to call home lol... I'm writing a story atm... not very long atm only about 15000 words about 37 A4 pages...yeah that's pretty much it atm (lol i like atm)


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## Tyrael (Oct 13, 2007)

Super-powerful? Becareful about trying to write what is essentially a jump manga story in a novel, might not be entirely adviseable. Experiment with styles I say, currently I have one project with very little emotive description in it. It is meant to spark a type of empathy through the actions and situations, not through my use of sentence structure or metaphors and the like. It could be I'm just a bad writer though...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 13, 2007)

Super powerful battles don't seem to work well in stories. I tried it one time and things just seem to never fit together quiet right. Actually fight scenes in stories are just difficult to write and the more fantastical they get, the more it just seems odd. 

I do have really powerful characters in my story. But I try to keep them from battling in an over the top way by being careful not to let them get too powerful and by trying to keep the fight from being the climax of the story. What I mean is, the fight can be _part of the climax_ just not the whole thing.


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## Robotkiller (Oct 13, 2007)

If you've ever read 'The wheel of Time' series by Jordan you'd know that super-powerful battles can be done (closest thing to DBZ style battles I've ever read), but it's really difficult to make them nonconfusing and fluid. It's not like shonen where you can simply view panels and realize everything that's taking place, you've got to describe but not lose pace. Something that I personally need to work on.

I myself prefer small skirmishes filled with one-on-one super-powered duels.

I also like giving my main character the upper hand in a fight once in a while, it's a nice change of pace from your typical 'main-character-in-distress-until-the-climax-where-he-powers-up' scenario.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 13, 2007)

My personal preference is low key graphically violent duels.(punch, slash, gunshot, as opposed to energy/magic blasts) But the nature of my story calls on extreme high powered fighting once in a while. I'm gonna need to practice my large scale battles.


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## Sasori-puppet#111 (Oct 13, 2007)

lol it's a superpower i guess... and i'll have a read of "The Wheel of Time" serise by jordon (need a last name )... I genrally do 1 on 1 rather than a mass of people charging at each other... sometimes i do 2 on 1 but one ends up doing pretty much nothing or is knocked out or something along that line lol


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 13, 2007)

Sasori-puppet#111 said:


> lol it's a superpower i guess... and i'll have a read of "The Wheel of Time" serise by jordon (need a last name )... I genrally do 1 on 1 rather than a mass of people charging at each other... sometimes i do 2 on 1 but one ends up doing pretty much nothing or is knocked out or something along that line lol



I did a six on one, but the one was a dragon and it pretty much dispatched of everyone very quickly. More often than not, the fights that I am writing now are gun fights because most of the characters that have powers haven't discovered them or haven't come into play yet.


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## Sasori-puppet#111 (Oct 13, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I did a six on one, but the one was a dragon and it pretty much dispatched of everyone very quickly. More often than not, the fights that I am writing now are gun fights because most of the characters that have powers haven't discovered them or haven't come into play yet.



I see i see... yeah my main charater doesn't know his power yet... and won't till nearer the end (no bloody cliche friendship things  lol)... but powers attach to him along the way

I have my story planed out to the end... all i have to do is get round to writing it lol


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 13, 2007)

Sasori-puppet#111 said:


> I see i see... yeah my main charater doesn't know his power yet... and won't till nearer the end (no bloody cliche friendship things  lol)... but powers attach to him along the way
> 
> I have my story planed out to the end... all i have to do is get round to writing it lol



I have my story planned up until a certain point, but my characters are just starting to learn of their powers now, well one of them is. Although the true nature of the powers they have will remain a mystery for some time to come. 

Its hard to write something like that, I get excited and I want to rush it and get to the parts where they discover they have powers because most of them are pretty interesting. One of them actually injures her husband why trying to be romantic and thats one of the first signs she has of her powers. I plan on making it a little comical.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 14, 2007)

About two of the main characters in my story knew of their powers. As for the others who didn't, just went into them. Learning about powers isn't really a theme I have going.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 14, 2007)

The first one to find out in my story is the Angel of Music, she first realizes that any instrument she picks up is easily playable regardless of whether or not she has ever even seen it before. She also learns that she has a some heightened level of strength and hearing. 

Later during a critical moment she realizes the mysterious guitar she found is actually a living weapon and that its true form is a giant harp/ax.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 14, 2007)

One character, discovers he has the ability to absorb any magic that's used on him. Unfortunately, even healing. Another discovers she can use *The Eyes of Enlightenment*.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 14, 2007)

What exactly are the Eyes of Enlightenment, I'm not familiar with the term.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 14, 2007)

I made them up. It's really best explained in the book. I explain them gradually. In fact, they still haven't been fully explained yet. But really to give a brief explanation. Floating eyes of death.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 14, 2007)

I spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to explain stuff that I want to do, so when I have something in my head and all of the explanation is there I usually use it. I was thinking about doing a time line for the story just to keep some things in check. But like I said earlier most of the story is based in the world we live in today, its a little bit in the future, but none of the technology is that fantastic. 

Most of the weapons used are guns and I don't really have too many hard to explain objects. Making up a whole world for me is hard, probably why I don't write straight up fantasy.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 14, 2007)

I have lots of fantastical elements, but I prefer to introduce them subtly so as to make things seem natural even when they're new. 
I have guns, magic, swords, and assault vehicles. I also have tons of monsters.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 14, 2007)

They've got guns, swords, and some more whacky weapons. But for the most part is modern technology type stuff. Then for monsters there's pretty much demons, there will be other creatures of that nature. Like I had some zombies already, there will be Hell Hounds (I guess those count at demons). But there are also Vampires, although they're not really evil and they aren't killed by staking or sunlight, just fire and decapitation.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 14, 2007)

So far I've come up with almost all the monster designs myself. The only one I pulled from mythology was a Cerberus inspired hell hound.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 14, 2007)

Most of mine are pulled from books about paranormal things. Someone actually thought I was a paranormal investigator because of the number of books I have on the stuff. And with the demons I usually either make up a name and if they need to look a certain way I make it up off the top of my head. 

The vampires are funny, because I made up half of them and my friend did the other half. We share them and her stories with them happen before mine, although I allude and flash back to things in her stories if I have to.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 14, 2007)

I have not really named any monster besides the Cerberus, which I nicknamed Tri-biscuit.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 14, 2007)

The main bad guy right now in my story is a demon named Charon, which is a name taken from Dante's Inferno. Then the main vampires are Claudia, Sabrina and Pellegri. The Angel of Death calls herself Dee. There's another demon who fights Charon named Edward...

Most of the names are nothing too fancy, but Pellegri is probably my favorite. I just love the sound it has to it.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 14, 2007)

Pellegri makes me think of Xenosaga. The villain's name in mine is Cyrus Auravelius.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 14, 2007)

Luneas said:


> Pellegri makes me think of Xenosaga. The villain's name in mine is Cyrus Auravelius.



That's where I got it from actually. I was like that's a beautiful name, I have to use it some where. She was a minor character when I first wrote her and her part grew bigger when she married a main character. Besides the name though there's no resemblance. 

I never thought about giving Charon a last name, although I might just because. 

My main characters are based on and named after friends in the draft at least. I change them later.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 15, 2007)

I am slowly moving towards a point where I don't know what's good or evil anymore. Ah, fuck lines I'll do what's fun.


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## Sasori-puppet#111 (Oct 15, 2007)

lol my main charaters are Zelax (main main charater) who has a demon traped inside him named demam (de-ma) who is stolen by another demon under the comade of the leader demon called Dark (very cliche lol) who needs a item which Zelax poses and finds a man named Argon (secondary main charater) who once had a demon inside him as well, who figures out that Henga (girl secondary main charater) is a ancient porafised witon who only appear when a demon is killed and the human survives. Which is the key to sealing the forgotten ones! But to see her father again she must obtain the item from Zelax and give it to dark. Also Zelax has a fusion of Demam's and his soul stuck in a fragment of him called Delax (the paracite) which is far stronger than either Demam or Zelax.

That's a quick explaination of the charaters and their roles in the story atm


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## Tyrael (Oct 16, 2007)

Luneas said:


> I am slowly moving towards a point where I don't know what's good or evil anymore. Ah, fuck lines I'll do what's fun.



Good and evil are just two names for opposing sides. It's a means of justifying that you are on the right side. Anyway dragons? Demons? An ax that actually becomes an axe (or other weapon)? This is a rather prevelant fantasy thread me thinks.

I would give a summary of what the thing I'm writing at them moment is about, but I think it would probably sound rather sad; its accidently a science fantasy.

There seems to be an awful lot of magic flying about here(even if you don't call it magic) but I am wondering to what extent are people using it as a metaphor?


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## Prince Leon (Oct 16, 2007)

Oh man, looks like I'm going to be restarting my current work yet again. I think I've come up with the final version of how I want the cast to be but I'm going to have to straighten out how many powers I have in place. For now there are three sides but it's going to be interesting to see how I can juggle them around


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## Tyrael (Oct 16, 2007)

Prince Leon said:


> Oh man, looks like I'm going to be restarting my current work yet again. I think I've come up with the final version of how I want the cast to be but I'm going to have to straighten out how many powers I have in place. For now there are three sides but it's going to be interesting to see how I can juggle them around



Yeah man, I know the feeling, I'm on my third attempt at my project and there are about three sides in the fray except its not really a fray and actually there is five: but thats not at all obvious. Endless rewrites will sully a story but I guess they can be painfully necessary. The multiple side idea also does add an extra interesting dynamic to the story.


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## Prince Leon (Oct 16, 2007)

Indeed. I don't mind rewriting this work since I love the characters a lot and spent quite some time creating and developing them. Hell, many of them weren't even existing until the previous restart. 

And I think I finally got down how I'm going to handle the sides but I'll know for sure once I put pen to paper.


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## Tyrael (Oct 16, 2007)

Do you intend to portray all sides as sides fighting/staring each other down/cooperating(well could happen) in a way that has a definitive evil/good divide?


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## Lord Yu (Oct 16, 2007)

I'm currently about to rework earlier bits in my story. There are some parts that need expanding, plus places where it was obvious I had forgotten where I was going. There's also a few out of character moments here and there.


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## Tyrael (Oct 16, 2007)

Luneas said:


> I'm currently about to rework earlier bits in my story. There are some parts that need expanding, plus places where it was obvious I had forgotten where I was going. There's also a few out of character moments here and there.



Out of character is good. People are never 100% predictable. Then again I guess it could lead to comprimising a character completely, something obviously to be avoided. If they are out of character, yet that could be attributed to something in their personality leave it in.


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## Prince Leon (Oct 16, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Do you intend to portray all sides as sides fighting/staring each other down/cooperating(well could happen) in a way that has a definitive evil/good divide?



Well, at the very start the three sides are as follows (no definite/official renaming yet): Heaven, Fallen Heaven, and Hell. It seems pretty obvious who would be see as good, evil, and middle, right? Though it's not like that at all, at least not 100%. There really isn't anyone who is 100% evil or 100% good but there are divides that tell who belongs where.



Luneas said:


> I'm currently about to rework earlier bits in my story. There are some parts that need expanding, plus places where it was obvious I had forgotten where I was going. There's also a few out of character moments here and there.



I think people IRL have OOC moments so I think they're quite fine in fiction.


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## Tyrael (Oct 16, 2007)

Prince Leon said:


> Well, at the very start the three sides are as follows (no definite/official renaming yet): Heaven, Fallen Heaven, and Hell. It seems pretty obvious who would be see as good, evil, and middle, right? Though it's not like that at all, at least not 100%. There really isn't anyone who is 100% evil or 100% good but there are divides that tell who belongs where.



Ah challenging preconceptions of both the reader and the characters is an amusing one to play about with, can lead to some real high drama. Then again taking a Pullman-esque route by portraying god/angels in an ultimately antagonistic light may offend a few people. Hey, maybe that is a good thing as well, depends on the reaction your looking for.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 16, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Out of character is good. People are never 100% predictable. Then again I guess it could lead to comprimising a character completely, something obviously to be avoided. If they are out of character, yet that could be attributed to something in their personality leave it in.



I'm talking about the retarded out of character moments that have no value.


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## Prince Leon (Oct 16, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Ah challenging preconceptions of both the reader and the characters is an amusing one to play about with, can lead to some real high drama. Then again taking a Pullman-esque route by portraying god/angels in an ultimately antagonistic light may offend a few people. Hey, maybe that is a good thing as well, depends on the reaction your looking for.



I'm probably not going to pull off any Pullman-ish stuff overall but there are some questionable persons on the side of good.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 16, 2007)

I'm about to reach into the dark areas of some of the protagonists. It's going to be insane.


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## Tyrael (Oct 16, 2007)

Luneas said:


> I'm about to reach into the dark areas of some of the protagonists. It's going to be insane.



More specifically what? Negative character development? Or a dark brutal past, or so on and so forth...


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## Lord Yu (Oct 16, 2007)

It's hard to define exactly.  Madness, obsession, I guess those words could work.


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## Tyrael (Oct 16, 2007)

Luneas said:


> It's hard to define exactly.  Madness, obsession, I guess those words could work.



Ooo, sounds fun.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 17, 2007)

There are so many ways I could end my story. No matter what, it's probably going to be fucked.


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## deadbeat 007 (Oct 18, 2007)

Wow, kudos to you guys. I used to write all the time, but for some reason I haven't written a thing all year.  I'll get into a really great concept, but after a week, I'm tired of it and scrap it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 18, 2007)

deadbeat 007 said:


> Wow, kudos to you guys. I used to write all the time, but for some reason I haven't written a thing all year.  I'll get into a really great concept, but after a week, I'm tired of it and scrap it.



Then just don't scrap it, put it aside and go to something else, you might come back to it later.


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## Robotkiller (Oct 18, 2007)

In my case I have to have a firm outline firmly rooted into my mind before I start writing anything. It's sort of like setting up guideposts, I'll write what flows and comes to mind and long as they lead to the point I'm trying to emphasis or tell the story I'm trying to convey.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

My brain is far too chaotic for that plan. I'll set up guideposts and the story will come alive to avoid them. Fortunately, the story usually finds something better.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 18, 2007)

Viral said:


> In my case I have to have a firm outline firmly rooted into my mind before I start writing anything. It's sort of like setting up guideposts, I'll write what flows and comes to mind and long as they lead to the point I'm trying to emphasis or tell the story I'm trying to convey.



I have a pretty loosely noted down guideline in this huge notebook I keep. But I have all of these ideas and character ideas in this notebook too and some of the characters I wrote in Junior high and never used find their way into my story now. Of course I tweak them and update them.


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## deadbeat 007 (Oct 18, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Then just don't scrap it, put it aside and go to something else, you might come back to it later.



I'll try that. Some form of rough outline might help. I think I go into too much detail with every scene when I'm planning the plot. When it actually comes time to begin writing, it feels like I've written it all before, haha.


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## Robotkiller (Oct 18, 2007)

I use a bullet type system for my ideas when I want to lay the foundation for a chapter.

It goes something like:

*Chapter name:*


I. The first thing I want to happen
*-*How that thing is going to transpire.
***Notes about above thing.
*+*Hints/foreshadowing that I want to include throughout the chapter  about character development or romance.​
II. The second thing I want to happen
III. The third thing I want to happen.
Etc...

Things go pretty quickly when you follow something structured like that. And it's so easy to write something once you have the gist of what you want to write all on paper.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

My writing could never be that structured. My writing is like a good live jazz show. You never know what you'll get.


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## Tyrael (Oct 18, 2007)

Planning? Yes I have heard of it before. It's a type of flower isn't it?


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## Robotkiller (Oct 18, 2007)

I'm not saying that my writing follows a rigid structure, _per say_. But having a leading light makes procrastinating oh so much harder for me to do when what I need to do is staring me right in the face.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

The only thing that makes me procrastinate are beginnings. Like my problem right now is which path to work on. There's character's I don't want to neglect. But there's also character's I'm loving right now that are about to do awesome things.


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## Tyrael (Oct 18, 2007)

As one who is so bad at writing structured stories I have come to the conclusion that a well thought out, deeply planned narrative, makes things flow much better. It takes a rare type of genius to do such a thing without at least planning to some extent, which unfortunately is not a category I fall into.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

Then rare genius I'll be. Bullshit is my specialty. I'll admit to have some planning, but I follow where the characters take me.


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## Tyrael (Oct 18, 2007)

Luneas said:


> Then rare genius I'll be. Bullshit is my specialty. I'll admit to have some planning, but I follow where the characters take me.



Do you ever find that letting a story just naturally happen means that sooner or later it will dig itself into a hole?


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

Occasionally, the world almost blows up/universe nearly gets erased, but the same could be said of many stories.


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## Tyrael (Oct 18, 2007)

Hitch hikers guide to the galaxy reference anybody? Actually now that I think about it, thats proof that having near enough no structure can work.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

I've never read that book.


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## Tyrael (Oct 18, 2007)

Luneas said:


> I've never read that book.



Really? Why not?


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

Never got my hands on it. I don't read much to be honest. The last book I finished was All The President's Pets by Mo Rocca


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## Tyrael (Oct 18, 2007)

Fair enough, nowadays whenever I feel like reading, I end up writing instead.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

I used to read quite a bit back in elementary school. But as many things did, my reading habits died in middle school.


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## Juubi (Oct 18, 2007)

Hello. My name is Juubi, and I'm an aspriring novelist.

To be honest, I'm a bit new to the novel scene; I've only developed talent for writing essays, and I wanted to see if I could cross over.

I've written a few short stories lately, and I have the Blender Fanfic going--I'm hoping that practice will give new eloquence to my words.

Constructive criticism of any of my works is always welcomed.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

I've written only a few weaboo short stories before crossing to novels myself.


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## Juubi (Oct 18, 2007)

Ah, so I'm not in such a terrible condition, after all.

How many novels have you written?


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

Zero, I'm working on my first one.


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## Juubi (Oct 18, 2007)

How far have you gotten?


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

That's hard to gauge. First person version has 156 pages. Being the lazy bastard I am I started working on the third person version where the first left off. That currently has 27 pages. I'm gonna go back and do a full third person version eventually.


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## Juubi (Oct 18, 2007)

Does every novelist have to do different perspectives of the book? I didn't know that, if so.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

No, it's just my crazy decision.


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## Prince Leon (Oct 18, 2007)

I'm trying to decide now how to restart my novel. I don't think I'm going to use the original start (the main guy and girl waking up, the former who had a nightmare) but rather probably jump into a battlefield. I've noticed that I started one of my other unfinished novels (mecha/romance) with a dream/waking up sequence as well. :sweat


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## Juubi (Oct 18, 2007)

Luneas said:


> No, it's just my crazy decision.



Ah, I see. Good luck with that.



Prince Leon said:


> I'm trying to decide now how to restart my novel. I don't think I'm going to use the original start (the main guy and girl waking up, the former who had a nightmare) but rather probably jump into a battlefield. I've noticed that I started one of my other unfinished novels (mecha/romance) with a dream/waking up sequence as well. :sweat



You should start with the nightmare/waking up. I'd like that more.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

I'm going to have to rearrange my prologue to fit with certain things I decided. Oh and grammar and flow fixes.


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## Prince Leon (Oct 18, 2007)

Here's how my current novel, _Seventh Order_, starts:


*Spoiler*: _Seventh Order | Chapter 1 excerpt_ 



Flames danced wildly across the great expanse of sky. Fiery pillars rained down from multiple points from the heavens. Choirs of angels, fallen angels, and demons zipped across the crimson battlefield as many fell to their deaths, clashed relentlessly with intent for victory, or desperately attempted to dive into the massive lilac portal that flickered with instability. Bits of darkness began to pool into the aquatic abyss hundreds of miles below the chaos that took place in the sky as the air became heavy; the clouds slowly began to turn in a circular motion around the entire area as the battlefield grew even more crimson than before.
“Now is not the time, darling.” A woman with blonde hair, and violet eyes appeared beside a young man with flames dancing around his body. She wore a soft smile as she carefully placed her hands atop of his, which were slowly raising a massive sword that possessed a black blade, and lowered them.  “The time has not come for you to release your true self.” The gorgeous woman spread her large, pure white wings, six in total, as she directed her attention towards the widening portal above them.
The crimson-haired angel felt multiple presences screaming at full speed from behind and calmly used his six crimson-colored wings to turn to his side. He raised his free hand towards the oncoming angels, half a dozen in total, and flashed his piercing ruby eyes in their direction. “Disappear into ashes.”
A sudden burst of light shot forth from his hand and engulfed the angels in a beam of light that instantly disintegrated their bodies, weapons, and armor. The blonde woman beside him gasped, now realizing what had just happened. “There wasn’t a need for you to waste your power on mere ants. They would’ve died just simply from mine or your presence.” She shook her head while placing her hands on her hips. “Well then, it’s about time we make our way through that little portal I think.”
“I don’t think so.”
The voice was firm and commanding and echoed from below them. As the crimson-haired angel spun around to confront the oncoming threat, he was suddenly engulfed in darkness. He flew around the area in search of his attacker before the darkness was suddenly overcome with a blinding white light.
“Show yourself!” The young man shouted and his response was a sudden diminishing of the bright light. He could now feel a very large presence surrounding him on all sides, causing him to grip his sword tight, engulfing the black blade with flames.
“This has to be done if only to save you from yourself.”
The voice this time sounded sad. Suddenly, he felt a massive source of energy dash towards him and he quickly spun around to defend. Screaming towards him was the manifestation of a humongous red lion whose mane shone gold. The angel barely caught sight of the attacker behind the lion and attempted to defend himself but it was too late. The translucent creature opened its mouth and devoured everything in sight as it closed in on the retreating young angel. The last things he saw and heard were his sword losing its shape and the screams of many people being scorched alive before he himself screamed aloud at the flashing images that invaded his mind. The last image was that of threatening ruby eyes like his staring at him before everything turned red and black.
Leon’s body quickly shot upwards from beneath the covers draped across his body. Even within the darkness of the night his red wings could be seen unfolding from his as he shook his head. Slowly, he opened his eyes revealing shaky blue irises that frantically searched around the room. He quickly pressed a hand against his forehead and swept it over his face, leaving him to breathe a sigh of relief.
_‘It was that dream again,’_ he thought to himself. He leaned back slightly on his other arm as he swallowed hard and gazed at the ceiling. _‘I…don’t understand any of it. She…why was *she*….’_ He shook his head free of the quickly fading images of the inferno and darkness and the numerous screams of agony that were now being drowned in silence.




Opinions/criticisms are welcome.


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## Juubi (Oct 18, 2007)

Luneas said:


> I'm going to have to rearrange my prologue to fit with certain things I decided. Oh and grammar and flow fixes.



Lol, I know how that can be.



Prince Leon said:


> Here's how my current novel, _Seventh Order_, starts:
> 
> Flames danced wildly across the great expanse of sky. Fiery pillars rained down from multiple points from the heavens. *Choirs of angels, fallen angels, and demons zipped across the crimson battlefield as many fell to their deaths, clashed relentlessly with intent for victory, or desperately attempted to dive into the massive lilac portal that flickered with instability.* Bits of darkness began to pool into the aquatic abyss hundreds of miles below the chaos that took place in the sky as the air became heavy; the clouds slowly began to turn in a circular motion around the entire area as the battlefield grew even more crimson than before.



To be honest, the bolded sentence was a bit confusing. I'd separate it into two separate sentences.

As for this paragraph, I'd flesh it out a bit more and work on the flow. It didn't give me as much of a chaotic feeling as I felt it should've.



> ?Now is not the time, darling.? *A woman with blonde hair, and violet eyes appeared beside a young man with flames dancing around his body.* She wore a soft smile as she carefully placed her hands atop of his, which were slowly raising a massive sword that possessed a black blade, and lowered them.  ?The time has not come for you to release your true self.? The gorgeous woman spread her large, pure white wings, six in total, as she directed her attention towards the widening portal above them.
> The crimson-haired angel felt multiple presences screaming at full speed from behind and calmly used his six crimson-colored wings to turn to his side. He raised his free hand towards the oncoming angels, half a dozen in total, and flashed his piercing ruby eyes in their direction. ?Disappear into ashes.?



When you introduced the woman, you could've done a lot more with telling of her appearance. Knowing how difficult this is to do myself, my advice would be to spend at least 4 full sentences on describing her appearance. You should also spend more time on creating a more vivid scene, since I'm guessing that this dream will have a great impact on the character.



> A sudden burst of light shot forth from his hand and engulfed the angels in a beam of light that instantly disintegrated their bodies, weapons, and armor. The blonde woman beside him gasped, now realizing what had just happened. ?There wasn?t a need for you to waste your power on mere ants. They would?ve died just simply from mine or your presence.? She shook her head while placing her hands on her hips. ?Well then, it?s about time we make our way through that little portal I think.?
> ?I don?t think so.?
> The voice was firm and commanding and echoed from below them. As the crimson-haired angel spun around to confront the oncoming threat, he was suddenly engulfed in darkness. He flew around the area in search of his attacker before the darkness was suddenly overcome with a blinding white light.
> ?Show yourself!? The young man shouted and his response was a sudden diminishing of the bright light. He could now feel a very large presence surrounding him on all sides, causing him to grip his sword tight, engulfing the black blade with flames.
> ...



Just flesh it out a bit more--really make us feel like we've been thrown in the middle of the dream. It's a great concept and I like it. It sounds good.


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## Prince Leon (Oct 18, 2007)

I think I used my unedited version. XD



Juubi said:


> To be honest, the bolded sentence was a bit confusing. I'd separate it into two separate sentences.
> 
> As for this paragraph, I'd flesh it out a bit more and work on the flow. It didn't give me as much of a chaotic feeling as I felt it should've.






> When you introduced the woman, you could've done a lot more with telling of her appearance. Knowing how difficult this is to do myself, my advice would be to spend at least 4 full sentences on describing her appearance. You should also spend more time on creating a more vivid scene, since I'm guessing that this dream will have a great impact on the character.



I thought about that as well but I was thinking of holding back on her description since I don't want to reveal who the woman is just yet. When the time comes for me to reveal her then it would probably be a bit too obvious but I'm beginning to think that I should do it [describe her more] anyways.



> Just flesh it out a bit more--really make us feel like we've been thrown in the middle of the dream. It's a great concept and I like it. It sounds good.



I have been looking over it lately and thinking that, if I continue using it, how should I make it jump out more to the readers. I'll have to jot down some points I wanted to add in soon.

Thanks for the critique.


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## Juubi (Oct 18, 2007)

Prince Leon said:


> I think I used my unedited version. XD



Lol.



> I thought about that as well but I was thinking of holding back on her description since I don't want to reveal who the woman is just yet. When the time comes for me to reveal her then it would probably be a bit too obvious but I'm beginning to think that I should do it [describe her more] anyways.



Ah, I see. You could always make her change states, so that she isn't in that particular form until that moment arrives. Also, it could make the reader become excited the moment you introduce her--if the reader can recognize her as the person from the vision.



> I have been looking over it lately and thinking that, if I continue using it, how should I make it jump out more to the readers. I'll have to jot down some points I wanted to add in soon.



What helps me is looking at other people's work.



> Thanks for the critique.



No problem.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

I'd post an excerpt, but I'm never proud enough of any particular proud of certain parts to post them.


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## Prince Leon (Oct 18, 2007)

^sounds like you need some ROW ROW FIGHT DA POWA music to help you post one. 



Juubi said:


> Ah, I see. You could always make her change states, so that she isn't in that particular form until that moment arrives. Also, it could make the reader become excited the moment you introduce her--if the reader can recognize her as the person from the vision.



Funny that you should mention her changing appearance. She can actually do that more flawlessly than most of my characters with that ability, as in totally hide her original presence/aura and use something new. Gah, decisions, decisions. xD



> What helps me is looking at other people's work.



Same here.


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## Juubi (Oct 18, 2007)

Luneas said:


> I'd post an excerpt, but I'm never proud enough of any particular proud of certain parts to post them.



Lol, don't worry about it. Just post.

If you think about it, we're all shitty writers compared to at least one person on the planet, so we've all got room to grow.



Prince Leon said:


> Funny that you should mention her changing appearance. She can actually do that more flawlessly than most of my characters with that ability, as in totally hide her original presence/aura and use something new. Gah, decisions, decisions. xD



That's awesome, lol.



> Same here.



I'm glad we have that in common.

I'll post a link to my fanfic in a second, guys. That's my major literary effort for the moment--I have to force myself to produce acceptable literature on the spot, in enough time to keep my audience interested. It's actually working quite well.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

*Spoiler*: _All right let's try third person_ 



Under a tree in the darkest of forests the young lady Eridaltia lay. Her wounds quickly decorating the soil with her life blood. She was fading fast and she knew it. But what adorned her face was not the look of a scared girl about to meet an untimely end. Not an ounce of fear, perhaps a light inkling of regret here and there, but preparation was there. Her enemy, the one she sought to wound the most was there to behold her fate. Though she could not reap Luneas, she could destroy the soul of Michael. A blood covered smile cracked across her face as she looked at him. She sought to make her final expression one of absolute spite to her most hated. She wanted to leave the mortal coil knowing her death was the ultimate weapon in destroying her enemy. With that her eyes slid closed for the final time.
	A vision of sublime perhaps divine serenity. A calm peaceful meadow filled with flowers sprawls out before her.  She thinks to herself. Is this really the end? Will I finally see my family again?The heavy weight that so long tore down her heart slowly began to rise.  She started to walk forward in order to search for her parents. However, instead of progress she was met with an unsettling discovery. She could not move. No matter how much she tried she could not move from where she was. It was as if she were on a treadmill. Slowly as she struggled fear began to rise inside of her. Where was she? Her apparent death, this beautiful background, where was she? As time as she perceived it moved on the sun continued to shine frozen in place and the wind continued to gently tease the flowers. A magnificent scene that would normally relax her. However, this time it only taunted her. She began to return to hopeless thoughts. Questions such as ?Why me?? Returned to her thought processes. 

?Why you?? A voice that was not hers casually remarks behind her. The shock of hearing someone else after so long causes her to stumble and fall. She turns over to the voice to found an interesting surprises.
?Mi-Mi-I mea- Obertz!? Her most hated appeared before her. Why was he here? She thought. Was this another magic induced dream? 
?That was a close one? He said looking down at her smiling. ?I really thought you would die.? 
?So I'm not dead after all.? Eridaltia says picking herself up disappointed. ?What are you doing here??
?I managed to save you.? Obertz says whimsically floating. ?But there's a small catch you might object to.?
?What is it?? Eridaltia responds preparing for the worst.
?Since I can't use healing magic.  I had to apply my own regeneration ability to you.? He sighs. ?Well it basically means. I had to merge with you.?
?You lost me.? His explanation only confused Eridaltia.
?It's kind of like reverse possession.? Obertz continues to no avail. 
?So you're saying I can use your powers?? Eridaltia finally starts to grasp it but not really.
?Yes I am.? Obertz affirms.
?I think I'll focus on that.? Eridaltia attempts to maintain an air of calm but it's fairly clear that she was disturbed at the concept of merging with another. Not only that she was merged with him. ?So I'm inside my head right?? She said partly to him and partly as affirmation to herself. ?So how long till I wake up? Luneas is still alive. What I caught was just a stand in.?
?Is this where I break in?? A third voice. A breeze blows and a familiar figure appears. Luneas! The one behind their current misfortune. This time in his usual garish attire. 
?Luneas, what are you doing here?? Obertz immediately takes a combat ready stance.
?I'm here to invite you to a get-together of sorts.? Luneas says smiling.?We haven't formally met so I thought now would be a good time as any.?
?Are you  insane?? Eridaltia exclaims in anger.
?I wasn't talking to you. Be quiet. I'll get to you in a minute.? Luneas snaps.
?Where are you?? Obertz asks.
?Oh, so you'll come? I'm preparing a feast. You'll love it! It's at Harsakaat. The road leading to it is sealed. But I'll open it!? Luneas seems ecstatic even animated. ?As for the girl. You know very well if you bring her I will kill her. However if you don't I will still hunt her and kill her. So I guess I'll be expecting her...Provided she survives the trip.? 
?I understand. I'll attend your party. We'll both be there.? Obertz relaxes his stance. ?Of course, as for who will die. We'll see.?
?It seems you still intend to fight me. I hope you change your mind before getting here. I'm sure your siblings would be elated to see you. In fact I even invited some of them. They should arrive by the time you get here.? Siblings, Obertz never thought of himself as a brother. He grew up with the identity of an only child. His father never talked of his siblings. 
?So you're going to completely ignore me are you?? Eridaltia stews. 
?Yes, this is a family matter. It's none of your concern.? Luneas states bluntly.
?But you're still talking about killing me. I don't see how this-? Eridaltia notices Luneas has started to ignore her completely. Luneas goes on to give Obertz detailed directions to his party. 
?I'll see you there.? Luneas disappears.
?Well that was...hmm.? Eridaltia muses. ?When can you get me conscious? I don't feel safe like this.?
?You're perfectly safe. I can be in here and keep watch at the same time. We're fine. You'll be conscious in..? As Obertz says that Eridaltia finds herself back in that dark forest she supposedly died in. Upon her awakening she muses to herself about how many near death experiences this makes. She looks around to see her body and clothes fully intact.


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## Juubi (Oct 18, 2007)

It's actually not that bad. It just needs some extra puntuation and sentences that flow together more freely.

I didn't quite like the present tense narrative, though. I'm used to hearing past tense when it comes to third-person narratives. I'll have to get used to that, lol.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

I'm slowly gaining back my vocabulary. So the quality will increase.


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## Juubi (Oct 18, 2007)

Lol, I know how you feel. Don't be afraid to use a thesaurus, btw. I do it all of the time when I can't think of a fitting word for the situation, or when my adjectives become too repetitive.

Circe FC.

Here's the link to my fanfic. It gets better with each new chapter, imo.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

I'm proud to say I've never used a thesaurus. My pride won't let me use one now.


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## Juubi (Oct 18, 2007)

Don't feel to proud to use a thesaurus, lol. I'm not saying that you don't know the word--it's just that I know how hard it can be to dig up the right word from the thousands stored in memory.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

i don't even think I own one.


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## Juubi (Oct 18, 2007)

There are online thesauruses, and most computers come with one already built in.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2007)

I still refuse to use them.


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## Juubi (Oct 19, 2007)

Lol. Tell me if you change your mind.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 19, 2007)

So what else did you think of my excerpt?


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## Tyrael (Oct 19, 2007)

I have posted this in another thread, but it has pretty much been ignored so I thought I'd try it here, keep criticism constructive please:


*Spoiler*: __ 



It was a pale sky hanging overhead, spotless, but by no means a vivid blue. Birds glided freely in the air, adding a little bit of colour to the eternity they explored. They soared majestically, beneath the daytime sun that burn in the heavens, powerful in its complete influence of every manner of creature beneath it. Under it stood the grand abandoned city.

From her window she could see the army of spires, a giant?s bed of needles raising up as if to touch the sky; needless to say it was a futile attempt. The citizens of the abandoned city had continuously been striving to go higher and higher, build taller towers, bigger buildings. Across the land architects had grown more extravagant and less practical, ornate technicality favoured over boring practicality.

She could also see small people going about their business on the streets below. Carts driven by oxen shouldered their way through the swarm of activity. She could make out tables set up in the street; no doubt set up by merchants, chancing that a poor soul with no taste or sense should appear to be preyed upon. The sprawling masses moved slowly, a movement was perceivable from her vantage point, the people moving like ants to some unknown consensus. 

The abandoned city was somewhat ironically titled; it was the largest city in the world. It harboured all sorts, from the west, the south, the east, the north, it was the hub of the events, what happened here affected everywhere, be it political movements, assassinations, the tolling of war?s drums. The abandoned city was a power not to be underestimated in any way.

The architecture was not the only thing to have changed as of late. A deeply imbued obnoxiousness had snuck into the subconscious of the natives of the abandoned city. And it was beginning to materialise in the form of snobbery and discrimination. Nowhere in the world was so well known, nowhere as famous.

Directly opposite the window was the church of Heretic, a building that was a perfect microcosm of the city. It was an old building, famously the hub of the city, once a plain squat square affair. Now there was nothing that could match its grandiose majesty, nothing in the city, save for the Pagan Fountain, which could lay claim to as much  fame as the church of Heretic. Gargoyles leered down as if they had been attacked by a schizophrenic sculptor and everything about the ?refurbished? citadel was ridiculously oversized, decorated with fussy lines and fine materials.

As she looked down on this she noticed very little of it. Her mind was elsewhere. A sacred precept was about to be destroyed and she was one of the perpetrators. Not that her mind dwelled on the punishment from her elders; they could do nothing that would do lasting damage, they daren?t. It was, however, dawning on her that maybe the rule was more important than any of them had given it credit for. They were talking about demons, after all.
She did notice the birds though.

?Hey Zyre, stop day-dreaming and give a hand will you??

Zyre turned in towards a lavishly furnished room. Red carpet, lushly soft beneath her bare feet (she had taken off her sandals specifically), walls exquisitely plastered with designs of famous heroes and mythical monsters circling around her. The room smelled new, as if it had all been freshly made and assembled, a surprising, yet pleasant, side effect of the maintenance curse that lay on the room.

Most of the room was filed by four plush beds, with corresponding ebony chests of drawers opposite. The circular rooms normally regimentally organised furniture had been pushed aside as a space had been cleared in the middle. On the open floor was chalked out an ornately complex circle.
It was a tripled layered circle, each layer with four ancient words scrolled around the circle in the ancient tongue. Barrier, destruction, sin, release. In the middle was the symbol of the balance cohort, intricately and precisely drawn, Tsaolin a perfectionist in anyway. This time she was more than right to be precise though, the character had to be exactly as displayed in the catacomb of balance. Any mistakes would land them in way over head their head. Zyre considered that they might already be in over their head, regardless.

Nael was staring at her, biting his lip as he crouched down beside the circle, carefully making sure he did not scuff the painstakingly accurate circumference with his shoe. He seemed to be struggling, despite his boasts, to keep the magic active in the circle, which was necessary when  maintaining a planar orifice to allow the Jinn passage. It was of deadly importance to keep the flow constant, Zyre knew she had been called none too soon.

Summoning a Jinn: it was a fabulous apple, hanging there within reach.
Life at the Magi Academia was considerably grey. The main point in magic seemed to be how much you are not allowed to do rather than opening up a whole new world. Instead of teaching you to fly they taught you to walk. Zyre already knew how to walk. The focus on not using magic was driving her up the wall, she could not do magic well enough, it was the actual application that she had come to learn. Little more than the basics had come her way.

She was not lone in this. All of her roommates were frustrated. They had pretty much grown up together, all debating the marvels of magic that would be passed on to them once they had come of age. Age came and went, yet little in the way of magic manifested itself. All that came along was plenty of dire warnings and a lot of exasperation. They were rebelling.

Whispers in the group of taking magic further than it could be done under teaching had arisen slowly. Zyre was unsure who had started the whispers, but she knew that it had already occurred to all of them before it was ever suggested. In the end who had suggested was unimportant; the idea was there and it held power. Perhaps too much power.

So then there was the question of what it was possible to do, with no taboos, and the full power of magic at their finger tips. Amongst the infinite possibilities the most dangerous had shone through. There was something darkly attractive about the summoning ritual. It was not even acknowledged that such a thing could be done, not even acknowledged that there was proof that the Netherworld existed or that it could be accessed in any way.

It was less a book than a tome; a carapace of dust and a dark lair in the corner of the library had long protect this book from being discovered, possibly for hundreds of years. The book?s contents had disturbed Zyre whenever she read it. There was no denying that if the Netherworld existed the author had seen it; the knowledge he wrote had cracked his mind. Dire drawling text jittered across the pages scrawling out warning upon spells, cautions upon enchantments. The page that consisting of the spell to open the gate and summon and bind a jinn was curiously empty of warnings. As if no warnings were emphatic enough. From the moment they laid eyes upon it they had agreed it was perfect.

Now Nael was looking pale and tired as he channelled his power through the circle. His scruffy dark hair was thrown wildly to the metaphorical wind and his high cheek-boned face was glistening with sweat. Dark rings encapsulated his eyes, it looked as if he were taken by an insomnia of the most fierce kind. His normal baggy red t-shirt and cream shorts, finely made, that he seemed to wear four days out of seven were making their much expected return.

He was an unusual choice for the maintainer, but they had no choice, as when the ritual goes into full flow he was the only one free to keep the magic flow maintained. It was another of the countless flaws in their ?full proof? plan. Zyre felt her stomach turn harder, a coldness spreading immediately as the thought occurred to her.


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## Juubi (Oct 19, 2007)

Luneas said:


> So what else did you think of my excerpt?



I didn't really like the flow of the excerpt, although I did like the concept. The sentences are too broken, and aren't natural-sounding at all. My advice would be to employ more semicolons and commas, and combine several of these sentences.

I'd also advise you to make the characters less static during conversations. Even if they don't move from their respective positions during speaking, they can always display various facial expressions and eye movements. You should use that more.

Also--I don't know whether I said this earlier, or not, but I didn't find the narrative style that attractive. A third person narrative would be best in past tense, at least, for this story.

Overall, it sounds like something I'd want to read--Luneas, Obertz, and Eridaltia seem to have an interesting relationship.


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## Juubi (Oct 19, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> I have posted this in another thread, but it has pretty much been ignored so I thought I'd try it here, keep criticism constructive please:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Lol, it's REEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAALLY long, lol. That's probably why they ignored it.

I'll make sure to review it tomorrow. I would do so tonight, but it's becoming quite late where I live, and I have to finish chapter 11 of my fanfic by tomorrow.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 19, 2007)

Juubi said:


> I didn't really like the flow of the excerpt, although I did like the concept. The sentences are too broken, and aren't natural-sounding at all. My advice would be to employ more semicolons and commas, and combine several of these sentences.
> 
> I'd also advise you to make the characters less static during conversations. Even if they don't move from their respective positions during speaking, they can always display various facial expressions and eye movements. You should use that more.
> 
> ...



I was experimenting to be honest. I mostly write from the 1st person with that story. I also need to learn to use a semicolon, for some reason I can't use a semicolon worth a damn. At one point in fact I gave up trying to make things sound good and went for plot movement. I can probably spice it up later when I feel enlightened.


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## Juubi (Oct 19, 2007)

Lol, I know how you feel about all of those things--especially the part with the plot development.

To be honest, I've never really written first-person before. I'll have to venture into that area one day.


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## Tyrael (Oct 20, 2007)

Luneas-the tense jump was at first slightly confusing and I am slightly unsure about the structure, however are you aiming for a thoroughly described novel or one that aims to leave much to the readers imagination just hinting at various things you could describe? I know how you feel about the semi-colons, I'm very much the same.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 20, 2007)

Much to the imagination. I prefer subtlety to just plain explanation.


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## Tyrael (Oct 20, 2007)

Ah, well your excerpt, in that case, has very little I could suggest or criticise, the characters have interesting implications and the scene has enough description to get the imagination rolling. The only thing I am unsure of is how you will sustain a novel at that pace, an idea you may want to consider.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 20, 2007)

Oh, by the way, this excerpt is the beginning of chapter 10.


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## Tyrael (Oct 20, 2007)

Luneas said:


> Oh, by the way, this excerpt is the beginning of chapter 10.



Indeed, but did you not suggest that it was in FPP before this excerpt? Thus I presume there will be differences on pacing, you might already have this covered though. Did you take a look at my wee start or was the endless wall of text a bit much?


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## Lord Yu (Oct 20, 2007)

Yes it was indeed 1st before this. I did take a look at yours. It was kind of boring. To me it seemed overly descriptive and kinda dragged on. Maybe it's my preference for minimalism and gradual revelation.


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## The Thieving Queen (Oct 20, 2007)

Does everyone here use thier computers as thier starting point, or do they transfer what they've written on paper to computer?

I think I'm way more creative on paper then anything else, but I do most of the editing on my computer after a long (long long) session of typing it up. You should see my draft pages after I've read over it just once, it's like an ink bomb hit it.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 20, 2007)

My handwriting is godawful, so I try to avoid handwriting.


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## The Thieving Queen (Oct 20, 2007)

Mine is too, but it helps when you don't want someone trying to read your scribbling over your shoulder, they give up after trying to read the first two lines. 

But the down side is sometimes I can't read it after two lines either.


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## Tyrael (Oct 20, 2007)

The Thieving Queen said:


> Does everyone here use thier computers as thier starting point, or do they transfer what they've written on paper to computer?
> 
> I think I'm way more creative on paper then anything else, but I do most of the editing on my computer after a long (long long) session of typing it up. You should see my draft pages after I've read over it just once, it's like an ink bomb hit it.



There is times when confronted by a computer screen my inspiration dies, purely because of the medium. Having to write something then type it is a good way to proof read I admit, the idea of editing it while typing up. Being unable to read what I've written afterwards is more likely than you would imagine though.

@Luneas-Yeah I can understand how you would find it boring, being a fan of less plodding pieces. Or maybe it is just plain boring, I'll get a few more opinions on the subject.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 20, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> I have posted this in another thread, but it has pretty much been ignored so I thought I'd try it here, keep criticism constructive please:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Honestly I would just cut down on some of the description. There's that really hard to find medium that you have to find between over describing and under describing and I have this same problem when I write third person most of the time.


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## Tyrael (Oct 20, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Honestly I would just cut down on some of the description. There's that really hard to find medium that you have to find between over describing and under describing and I have this same problem when I write third person most of the time.



Ah, well normally over describing is not an obstacle for me (basically normally I describes so little it's more a screenplay), but in this particular instance I decided to go all out with my powers of description. Apparently it shows.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 20, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Ah, well normally over describing is not an obstacle for me (basically normally I describes so little it's more a screenplay), but in this particular instance I decided to go all out with my powers of description. Apparently it shows.



Sometimes its easier to overwrite and then come back and clip things out than to underwrite and add things later, so you might be going in the right direction. I would say just go through line by line and see if anything seems to hang or not flow.

Those should be the first things you clip out. I was doing this today at the book store. Its not all that fun but in the long run it will help the story alot and keep it from dragging at any parts. 

I was wonder, has anyone ever inserted a poem into their story. I was thinking about adding a poem that's pretty relevant to the whole story at the start of the story. But I'm not sure if its in good taste or not. 

Here is the poem: 


*Spoiler*: _The Second Coming By William Butler Yeats_ 




  TURNING and turning in the widening gyre
 The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
 Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
 Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
 The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
 The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
 The best lack all conviction, while the worst
 Are full of passionate intensity.

 Surely some revelation is at hand;
 Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
 The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
 When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
 Troubles my sight:  somewhere in sands of the desert
 A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
 A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
 Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
 Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
 The darkness drops again; but now I know
 That twenty centuries of stony sleep
 Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
 And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
 Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?


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## Noah (Oct 21, 2007)

If anything, I'd say add the poem even before the start. Instead of a forward or author's note, I'd use that. It seems like adding a poem to a story is not exactly good taste, but using it to represent the story that follows is.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 21, 2007)

Red_Squirrel said:


> If anything, I'd say add the poem even before the start. Instead of a forward or author's note, I'd use that. It seems like adding a poem to a story is not exactly good taste, but using it to represent the story that follows is.



In my mind, when I imagine the story as a book I see the poem coming on a page before the title page, or directly after. Not being at the start of the story itself. I guess thats what I meant to say.


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## Noah (Oct 21, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> In my mind, when I imagine the story as a book I see the poem coming on a page before the title page, or directly after. Not being at the start of the story itself. I guess thats what I meant to say.



Then yeah. I see absolutely no problem with that. Sometimes it even adds a little class.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 21, 2007)

I prefer to keep to my own hands and not dig on the work of others if possible.


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## Trov (Oct 21, 2007)

The Thieving Queen said:


> Does everyone here use thier computers as thier starting point, or do they transfer what they've written on paper to computer?
> 
> I think I'm way more creative on paper then anything else, but I do most of the editing on my computer after a long (long long) session of typing it up. You should see my draft pages after I've read over it just once, it's like an ink bomb hit it.



I honestly have a bunch of notebooks with all my story ideas fleshed out on them. I usually write down everything and describe whats happening in the story(Without actually writing the story in a more literary format, like a synopsis.) Then I later on plan to type it all out.

Infact, I'm currently writing a short fiction(Although it seems like it may end up being a bit longer than I thought. Not enough for an actual book though.)
I decided this time I'll write it out more like an actual book instead of just a synopsis. Just finished typing up the first part(got more to type and even more to write). First time using 1st person as well, so my writing style seems off a bit for some reason. Might just be the change.

If you are interested in reading it, click the spoiler. It's not that long.


*Spoiler*: _first part of the story I'm working on, Critics welcome, be brutal._ 




My Fight(Tentative title)

The Earth is dying. I guess after so many Millennia it was bound to happen. But we, the people, ignored the signs. I saw what has happened, what is happening, and what will happen. So I decided to do something about it.
The year is 5124. Humans have discovered new planets, lifeforms, and a lot more that the universe has to offer, we aren't confined to Earth anymore. Its probably because of that the Earth was treated the way it was. Having my own plans to revive Earth rejected by the Inter-galactic committee, all because the Earth is ?A waste of time.? But I love Earth and everything on it. My family, my friends, the animals, everything. If our own home world isn't worth saving, what does that say about the human race? And so I stand at the tournament gates, ready to enter the Coliseum to fight for the money needed to save Earth.

In the Coliseum, the rules were simple. Fight to the death or until one was knocked out, then move on to the next fighter until you reach the top. I had five fights ahead of me and there wasn't much in the way of weapon restrictions. I was nervous. I didn't want to kill, but that didn't mean my opponents had the same thoughts. I had to survive. So I equipped myself with a High-Vibration blade and a laser pistol and set off to the fighting grounds.

I stood there, waiting for my opponent in the middle of the arena. It didn't take long for him to arrive. He was a man who could intimidate anyone who saw him. His towering body and bulky physique was obvious to all. I'm no weakling, but to many, it didn't take much to see who'd win in hand to hand combat. He wasn't a time waster as he had grabbed his weapon of choice, a knuckle gun and placed it on his hand. I grabbed my sword and stood in my stance, waiting for the signal to start.
My ears twitched, I heard the sound and my body moved forward with the blade still in hand. My opponent moved in slow motion as I drew my blade and slashed his chest, but still I moved forward until I was behind him. I didn't look back, I closed my eyes. I wasn't confident about landing the first blow, I was afraid I went overboard. I could feel the wind change and could hear the rustling of clothes. I then heard his whisper as he fell to the ground with a thud.
I was pronounced the winner and his body was taken away in a stretcher. I wasn't sure if he was dead or alive, but I had hoped the latter. Either way though, his short whisper would haunt me forever.
?I'm sorry, Olivia...? was what he said. I had almost forgotten. Others fought for their dreams and goals as well. 

I was a dream crusher.


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## Caladan Brood (Oct 21, 2007)

Nice. Short, simple, brutal. Think the background history is a bit unnecessary, but that's just me.

A piece of work for school....titled "boys will be boys".  (How do I use spoilers?)

The world’s last breath is nigh. And still, boys will be boys.
A battle-worn veteran, bemused at the casualness of the callow youths in the face of certain death. His sergeant stripes are a heavy burden. Crouching behind the faintly smoking rubble of a once-majestic building. In a trench. 
The alien technology draws ever nearer. A military juggernaut mowing down the crème of Earth’s men like fresh grass. It is like a game of cat and mouse. Only a cat equipped with a mouse-trap. The futility of the situation bores down heavily on the unnamed soldier.
Juxtaposition. Grimy grimaces of the veteran; light banter in his boys. Their animated faces, boasting of their girls. The gravity of the situation has yet to dawn. 
Weathered and lined face. Reminiscing. Of a long-gone day when concerns ran no further than the mundane; the rent, university, girls.  
He can see the implacable alien faces. Surreal. It felt like another sequel to Alien. Or Star Wars. Only, no Luke Skywalker. No Vin Diesel.
 The topic has shifted. Sport. Defending their teams passionately. “Liverpool” seems to be bandied around a lot. A thought drifts into his mind. “Some things just don’t change.” The triviality of the situation brings an attempt of a smile to the veteran. His cracked lips resemble a grimace still from lack of practice. 
The unknown soldier tries to empty his mind. Harmony, and peace with the uncaring gods is his last goal in existence. He is interrupted. Cries of “Oohs” and “Aahs” and “Holy crap!” fly into his blank mind. The veteran opens one eye. Gives a chuckle which ends in a wheeze. More banter flies. “Oh yeah? My arms are so big that my shirt would rip if I flexed.” Derisive laughter ensues. 
A new voice interjects. “Go flex to the aliens! I’m sure they’d be impressed.” 
A moment of sobriety.
The sergeant returns to his meditative state. Expecting peace and quiet for a little while yet. He is wrong. 
A deafening cheer invades his sea of blankness. Wearily he opens his eyes. His boys are hiding their fear behind juvenile antics. Steady streams of urine steams towards the invaders. They turn around. In the greatest traditions of Braveheart, they give the uncomprehending aliens the universal message for, “F**k Off”. 
The aliens don’t take the hint. Maybe they’ll gain from Earth a Scottish sense of humour. 
One of the boy soldiers leaps out of their trench, a meager protection. Catcalls, jeers and hoots follow his bare-buttock run. He wields his carbon rifle with carelessness. Pulses spray the incoming gargantuan. 
They are as ineffectual as a water pistol. With a cold air of contempt, an alien carefully takes aim and blows the boy’s head apart. Gory and bloody blobs of charred flesh fly everywhere. Earth is enriched further. But no one will be around to benefit from it. 
The boys are not fazed. Like ants, they prepare to assault their human oppressors. An uproar is raised. Their war cries of Earth buoy them onwards. The aliens halt their monstrous machine, impassively watching. 
The veteran stands up, and joins his men. One last charge. The Ride of the Valkyries. A footnote in the aliens’ history. Maybe even a chapter. 
But boys will still be boys.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 21, 2007)

It's quite chaotic, but interesting. I still don't understand why you say my writing sucks. Perhaps, because your style is more centered on plot and area and mine on character.

Edit:Finally read mine. Damn it's bland. I need to work on my style. But hell I kinda knew it would end up like this. It was experimental and I was trying to get my plot out. Oh well as long as the plot is in place.


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## Trov (Oct 21, 2007)

Caladan Brood said:


> Nice. Short, simple, brutal. Think the background history is a bit unnecessary, but that's just me.
> 
> A piece of work for school....titled "boys will be boys".  (How do I use spoilers?)
> 
> ...


The background history has a point, You just won't get around to it until the end pretty much. I'm not finished yet, There will be tons of battles it it though, so far, I've written four, It'll probably triple by the end, although most will probably end rather quickly The last few battles will be longer But I digress. The history gives the main character purpose though, and like I said, it connects with hopefully the end. I just gotta finish it. 

And your story ain't bad. Kinda hard to follow though. But that may be my ADD moment talking.(And if you are wondering how to spoiler tag: [spoiler ][/ spoiler] no spaces)


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 22, 2007)

I was sitting at work and I just felt compelled to write something, I wrote what just might be a stand alone short or the beginning of something larger. Really not sure yet.


*Spoiler*: __ 




 She said, ?October never got this cold before I moved back here, but I?m not complaining.? 

  The thin wire frame sign twists and bends in the cold wind. All of the grass under me where I lay feels so cold against my back that I could swear the ground was wet. The sun is blotted out from the sky by a low hanging sheet of clouds. And I just have to lay here and ask myself, ?How often do I get to do this?? 

  After living in Chicago for a while, it never got cold enough for her to consider it Winter or even Autumn. Her thin livid arms are stretched out and up behind her head, she turns to look at me and some of her red hair drops over her eyes, ?Did you say something?? 

  ?It was nothing,? I let the words slip out as I continued to stare up at the clouded sky. 

  This was the epitome of the lazy Saturday, this was the kind of day that I lived for, even on the rare occasion that they happened. I felt her head ram hard into my chest. When I glanced down I could see that she had jumped against me, her arms were wrapped around me and her face gazing up at mine. 

  ?No kids, no work; I really think that I could stay out here like this all day,? her voice was quiet with excitement, the way intimate secrets were told. It was the way her voice always got when she was giddy. That was something that should have been comforting, right?

  I wrapped my arm around her back and let my hand rest on her stomach, ?With things the way they?ve been around here recently its good to have a rest.?

  ?Well I know that work?s been getting to you,? her green eyes were half closed now and her lips stayed parted when she finished speaking. She reached up and pushed her hair back some, ?Work?s been hard on all of us.? 

  Hard was an understatement. Including myself, several of our group had been injured in the past few months, one of them nearly died and on top of all of this we have very good reason to believe that we?re being spied on by someone in our group. Basically everything that we knew has changed or be rearranged in some way or another.

  Life set us on this track and then halfway through went and pulled the track up and left us to wonder aimlessly with out direction. I?m not sure what options we have when that happens except for trust our instincts and hope for the best.

  ?At least we?re all still alive,? I said. 

  She slid her body further up mine, our faces coming closer together, ?It?s like every time we talk you get hung up on this,? she paused, ?Isn?t there anything else you?d care to think about?anything at all,? her voice took that same tone again.

  I smoothed her hair back with my hand and then ran my fingers down through it, ?I don?t mean to do that at all??

  ?I know, its just?we?ve got some time to rest finally and??

  ?I know, sorry?? my voice is dry, dry like the rough brown pine needles we cleared from the yard earlier that day. 

  ??and you act like things are so serious,? she said. Suddenly she smiled real big, ?It?s not the end of the world, you know??

  Sixteen years of marriage and its hard to believe, this woman still smiles at me this way. She smiles at me despite the things I?ve done, despite everything that?s happened. Sometimes I wonder if she?s blocked it all out. Sometimes I think _if she only knew_. I?m a monster. 

  My free hand fumbles through my pocket, I produce my lighter and a pack of Lucky Strikes. I struggle to get the pack open with one hand and pull one single cigarette free of the flip top box. Her eyes scold me, but she doesn?t say a word. 

  I slip the thin white clothed strip of tobacco into my mouth and go to light it, ?The end of the world,? I repeat, ?Sometimes I think it is??


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## Minxie (Oct 23, 2007)

That was really good, Cardboard Tube Knight. I was just browsing this thread but what you wrote just there immediately pulled me in. I think you should continue it - it seems like something that could grow into something pretty epic. What with all the end of the world references . 

Would that narrator be the central protagonist of the whole story? He sounds like an interesting dude, so he could be. Or maybe you've got something more omniscient in mind, planning to shift to other character's points of view (like the wife and the other members of their 'group'). Either one would be cool .

From what I could tell, your story sounds like it might be a prelude to a long flashback (or several) of how he got up to that point, about "the things he'd done" and "everything that's happened." And then once you've gotten the story up to the current point, when all the characters and situations/plots/etc are established, then you can go into the story of someone being a traitor/spy... and eventually resolve everything. If you've watched the show 'Damages' on FX you'll know what I mean - they use the formula of showing a dramatic event in the first ep, and then it switches to '6 months earlier' and over the course of 10+ episodes showing how things got to that point. Every new ep we get a new glimpse into the 'right now', and also every ep we're closer to that day, such as "five months earlier", "three months", "three weeks", and so on. The show's reached 'present day' already, and now that we know the characters and how they got to that point the story is coming to it's dramatic conclusion. I hope I'm explaining this well... 

Anyway, sorry that I kinda went off on a tangent. I hope you continue with that story.

I'm an aspiring writer myself... but I haven't written much yet, sadly. I have two major ideas for series, both of which will have fantasy elements (one more than the other, probably). One of them has had a lot more planning put into it, and I'm more confident in it actually getting written at some point . However my second one still has details that need tweaking... It's difficult because I think its story is one more suited to a television series. It's mostly cuz it's a story with a lot of action (literally, physical battles, etc), and it'd be easier to show it rather than write it.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 23, 2007)

I think I've found my third person voice. I was too dry last time. Too unnatural. I'm going to write my story like a I write my school papers from now on.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 23, 2007)

Luneas said:


> I think I've found my third person voice. I was too dry last time. Too unnatural. I'm going to write my story like a I write my school papers from now on.



How do you write your papers. Mine are all super formal and stuff and I can't write stories like that.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 23, 2007)

Mine are written with a devil may care attitude. I can never really get things done until I completely stop giving a shit about what's on it. I get A's for it too.


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## Chidoriblade (Oct 24, 2007)

Sweet thread. I've been working on a six book series for the past two years. And I'm stuck on book one. I keep going three chapters in and starting over. My biggest problem is starting the dang story.

But the good news is I have a solid overall plot line and solid main characters that most have been with me since the only time I ever finished a book one two years ago... that book one is now in the 'never look at again' file. It sucked. The grammar was horrible, spelling was okay. But the storyline was way too short and it jumped. Also the chapters were three to seven pages long, size 20 font and double spaced... not going to work eh?


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## Catterix (Oct 24, 2007)

Maybe it's not a wise choice to start an entire 6 story series then... 

It'd be far more intelligent an idea to begin with short stories. Loads of them. Especially if it's taken you 2 years of an entire series and you haven't even done Book 1.

One thing I'd suggest would be to just write random scenarios of this story down as they come into your head. Not notes, but narrative. A sudden, random scene.

That's what I do and all of my stories, whether novel or short prose, have been very successful.


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## Chidoriblade (Oct 24, 2007)

Catterix said:


> Maybe it's not a wise choice to start an entire 6 story series then...
> 
> It'd be far more intelligent an idea to begin with short stories. Loads of them. Especially if it's taken you 2 years of an entire series and you haven't even done Book 1.
> 
> ...



You do have a good point there. I should do that. Thanks.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 24, 2007)

I play out short scenes in my head all the time. I tend to act them out.


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## x.OAsami.MatsudaO.x (Oct 25, 2007)

nice!

I write lots of stories. Particularity ones that would make good novels but I rarely finish them.

I guess I just loose interest and don't have any point to writing them since no one reads them.

-shrugs-

I will become an award winning novelist one day though!


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 25, 2007)

I am writing a series and at the same time I am writing very short, like two page little pieces to go in between and during other stories. Not sure what you would call those, but yeah.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 25, 2007)

It's still up in the air as to whether mine will turn into a series or not. but probably not.


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## Chidoriblade (Oct 25, 2007)

Well, either mine is going to be a series or a really long book. I don't think I could do a really long book.


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## Tyrael (Oct 27, 2007)

Chidoriblade said:


> Well, either mine is going to be a series or a really long book. I don't think I could do a really long book.



Depends how good you are at pacing and how much story you have. Reflecting over your past work is always a good idea, it may give you pointers as where to go next.


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## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Oct 28, 2007)

I am actually thinking of writing something but all those that come to my mind are blantant rip-offs of what intrests me at the moment ... 

How do i cure myself of this disease ??


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 28, 2007)

Feanor - The spirit of fire said:


> I am actually thinking of writing something but all those that come to my mind are blantant rip-offs of what intrests me at the moment ...
> 
> How do i cure myself of this disease ??


 
Not sure, you could always try your hand at it but try to put a new and interesting spin on it...or watch/read more things and diversify your intake which will inevitbly give you a new way of looking at things and more ideas to work with.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 28, 2007)

I think I may have developed my plot line toward a possible final arc.


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## Archon zekrish (Oct 30, 2007)

Feanor - The spirit of fire said:


> I am actually thinking of writing something but all those that come to my mind are blantant rip-offs of what intrests me at the moment ...
> 
> How do i cure myself of this disease ??



well.... everyone is inspired by something and most of the most famous writers of all time actually just take old folkelores or storys and adapte them and put them on paper . For example Tolkin stole *everything* from Swedish mytholgie ??


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## Lord Yu (Oct 30, 2007)

I steal everything from sexual frustration induced hallucinations and imagery pulled from songs, but mostly video games.


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## Chidoriblade (Oct 30, 2007)

Isn't that what most people do now a days?

I mean no offense, I've done it too. It's a bad habit but if it's worded right it can really add to a story and/or plot.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 30, 2007)

There's nothing new under the sun. All we can do is make people look different at old concepts.


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## Archon zekrish (Oct 30, 2007)

well.. here is my start..


*Spoiler*: __ 



_Is death an illusion? A bunch of sods say it is. Is this just to flee from their own fear of death or do they mean it? It would be splendid if death was an illusion, that there is something after the death of the body. That the soul lives on and is taken to heaven just as the priest told them. That would mean that all his friends would be waiting for him when he died, that he would not be alone. Being alone scared him, to rot in a grave scared him and death scared him. Many things scared Private 29310 Simons. His first name is not very important; he had not heard it since he joined the Imperial guard. He had been given a number, he did not know if it was a good number but he still liked it. It was a good foothold in troubled time; it was his number and no one else?s. Out to war the Imperial guard had taken him, out to war. He had followed obedient, as always. This is a story about soldier 29310; this is his nightmare and no one else?s._


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 31, 2007)

Not sure about this yet: 


*Spoiler*: __ 




 I listened to his voice, he was a man who sounded to be in his mid thirties but looked at least ten years older. His eyes encased in dark circles and he leaned forward over the table with a cigarette clenched between his index and middle fingers. His voice rasped a little as he rocked toward the table some, ?Back then I didn?t know anything but drugs,? he continued telling his tale to the woman who sat across the table from him., ?I lived for the drugs and used drugs to feel alive.?

  My fingers went around the top of my cup, the smell of the sweet coffee wafting out filled my nose and I sighed. I glanced down in the cup and I could make out my own reflection. My dark curls bunched up around my head, in the surface of the liquid my eyes appeared to be little more than dark holes. 

  I take my final sip from the glass and glance over at the man sitting in the corner booth, his back is to a window. He?s sat back some now. The waitress hovering over me with my ticket in hand grabs my attention, ?Would you like this now, sweetheart?? 

  I nod to her, ?Sat it down,? my arm goes down to the ash tray and I retrieve my cigarette. With a long slow drag I flare the ember on the business end and then flick the remains down in my coffee. 

  ?I know what you mean,? the woman across from the table with the man was talking now, ?I?ve been clean and sober six months and it still feels?it?s still like something is missing.?

  Just lifting the glass slightly, I slid my ticket and my money under the still half full mug and get to my feet. 

  ?Then maybe there is,? the man answered her as he took a drag on his own cigarette. ?Who are they to tell us that we?re not right?its not our fault that we were manufactured with these?_Faulty Souls_?that some God saw fit to make it where we need someone else to feel right?we can?t all find someone else, its not just that easy. And when no one is there, we need something to hold us over.?

  I smiled slightly, ?I thought so,? I mutter under my breath.

  ?I don?t know?? the woman said. 

  ?Maybe drugs are the answer,? he said now, ?Maybe all that shit they?re pumping into our heads down there only works for some of the people out there, what about people like us??

  My fingers fumbled down the buttons of my coat, they were large metal buttons and I had always had a hard time getting out of them, when I reached the last one I dug into my coat, ?People like you, you say?? Both of them looked up at me.

  ?Lady, do you know how rude that is?? asked the man.

  ?Where are my manners,? I said, ?I might care if you actually were a person??

  ?What?s that??

  ?Demonic scum,? my fingers curled around something cold and metallic. The look of shock on his face was priceless. When I leveled my gun at him and fired the gun through his face, his blood painted the wall and that look was suspended there. The glass window nearby was shattered and in the panic the woman cried out going to hide under the table. 

  I scoffed, the smoke in the room now wasn?t the kind from a cigarette or match. The dimly lit diner was filled with the sounds of glasses rattling and confused screams of panic. Demons masquerading as humans, preying on the weak. Wolves in sheep?s clothing. 

  I made my escape in the blink of an eye. A tuft of black feathers left in my wake. In this kind of justice there?s no jury, no witnesses, no one is all that sure what they?ve seen. I took orders straight from God for so long that to me, there?s no reason to be discrete or to show discrimination between demons, whether it?s a low level trying to con a woman into carnal or chemical pleasures, or something far more sinister. 

  The truth of the matter was something was stirring, deep within the Earth. Something so horrid that it had the demons heading for higher ground, every now and then they?d attempt to blend in and act right. What could cause them to seek shelter so vigorously? 

  I didn?t know, but as I watched the commotion inside of the diner from the next parking lot over, I was sure I would find out.


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## Diamed (Oct 31, 2007)

I've been stuck on my current novel for years.  Lack of interest, lack of motivation from others, and the difficulty of presenting new and interesting ideas and situations when I've already used so many previously, even in the same series. . .


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## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Nov 1, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Not sure, you could always try your hand at it but try to put a new and interesting spin on it...or watch/read more things and diversify your intake which will inevitbly give you a new way of looking at things and more ideas to work with.



Yeah ... but the problem is that i am watching/reading so many things that all these are getting jumbled up in my head and result in a headache   



Archon zekrish said:


> well.... everyone is inspired by something and most of the most famous writers of all time actually just take old folkelores or storys and adapte them and put them on paper . For example Tolkin stole *everything* from Swedish mytholgie ´´



I knew that ... Tolkien copied stuff blatantly from the Norse Mythology. His middle earth is actually a translation of Midgard ... i will try doing the same ... i should try digging into the mythologies of my country 




Diamed said:


> I've been stuck on my current novel for years.  Lack of interest, lack of motivation from others, and the difficulty of presenting new and interesting ideas and situations when I've already used so many previously, even in the same series. . .



yeah, writers block can sometimes occur ... for me, it is actually a starters block ... i keep remaking most ideas ... and loose my train of thought

thanks for all the suggestions though ... you have been really helpful.


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## Archon zekrish (Nov 1, 2007)

Feanor - The spirit of fire said:


> I knew that ... Tolkien copied stuff blatantly from the Norse Mythology. His middle earth is actually a translation of Midgard ... i will try doing the same ... i should try digging into the mythologies of my country



Just tell me what country it is and i can help ya out mate


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## MitsukiShiroi (Nov 1, 2007)

Luneas said:


> I play out short scenes in my head all the time. I tend to act them out.



Same. XD

Nano started yesterday and so I finally started the first book of my series. :3


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## Pretty_Vacant (Nov 2, 2007)

I think I'd have a fair whack at novel writing, but I currently have no ideas


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 2, 2007)

Pretty_Vacant said:


> I think I'd have a fair whack at novel writing, but I currently have no ideas



Hm just start with something small. Ideas can come from anywhere. My last one came from just sitting in a restaurant listening to people talk. So you never know where you're going to get inspiration from.  When you really think about it ideas can even come from something that doesn't seem all that interesting at first glance.

Think about it this way, don't sit down and thing "I need to write a novel" just take it one scene at a time. Think, "I need to write the scene where my Allen realizes the boats supplies won't last." 

When you get too far ahead of yourself it causes you to rush through things sometimes or it can even cause you to get overwhelmed. That's why I think its better to take it step by step.


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## Noah (Nov 2, 2007)

MitsukiShiroi said:


> Same. XD
> 
> Nano started yesterday and so I finally started the first book of my series. :3



Sweet crackers! I totally forgot about it! Oh god I've missed a whole day!

writewritewritewritewrite


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 2, 2007)

Oh yeah, that NANO thing...I forgot...

*continues to write at the same rate*


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## Lord Yu (Nov 2, 2007)

I need to learn to introduce characters.


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## Noah (Nov 2, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Oh yeah, that NANO thing...I forgot...
> 
> *continues to write at the same rate*



The difference between you and me is that up until now, I've pretty much been entirely pre-production, while you are in production. So I'm using NaNo as a way of forcing myself into the actual writing part, instead of just coming up with dozens of characters, a very integrated story, timelines and plot points while never actually telling the story.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 2, 2007)

Lol just when I thought of naming a character Noa, look who posts.


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## Juubi (Nov 2, 2007)

I knew that I should've subscribed to this thread. I totally forgot about it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 3, 2007)

Noah said:


> The difference between you and me is that up until now, I've pretty much been entirely pre-production, while you are in production. So I'm using NaNo as a way of forcing myself into the actual writing part, instead of just coming up with dozens of characters, a very integrated story, timelines and plot points while never actually telling the story.



I did most of my planning a long while back and continue to work with it some even now. But I can't get in with this Nano thing.


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## Tyrael (Nov 3, 2007)

Nano? Whut?

It seems that my ability to cut in2 conversations is as apt as ever.


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## Sawako (Nov 3, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Nano? Whut?




I was going to do this, but it's impossible for me to write 50,000 words in one month.


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## Noah (Nov 3, 2007)

Well, I just typed out 'Word' and pasted it 50,232 times and it came out to be 78 pages. When we consider bigger words, smaller words and formatting in there, I'm guessing it's 100 pages at most.

That's not too bad. If you start right now, it's 5 pages a day, with a whole week left for editing. Once you get on a roll, 5 pages isn't too hard to do at all. And even if you don't make it in time, you miss the contest, but you get a nice chunk of your story out of the way and it might just push you to write consistently.

That's how I'm looking at it, anyway.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 3, 2007)

My book has over 85,000 words and by no means presentable. I'm about to redo a few chapters and rework the whole storyline again.


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## xxx (Nov 3, 2007)

I was wonderin if anyone could do a quick read and review of the first chapter of my new story Butterflies? Please forgive typos.

*Spoiler*: __ 




Chapter I
Souls Day


Butterflies are so interesting. The colours, the shapes, the way they fly.

All morning I lie in the grassy fields outside the village, watching the butterflies and making dandelion crowns.

One of the most interesting things about butterflies is how they grow up. They start out as ugly little green things that tear up the crops. Then, as if they've discovered some horrible truth about the world, they close up, cutting themselves off from friends, family, and everything else. Finally, they emerge, more beautiful than ever, as if the understanding they've discovered is radiating off them in great rainbows.


The next day was Souls Day. In my village, it's a day to honour those who've died, and a festival to help send off those whom we've lost in the past year. For being started for such a bleak reason, it's always so much fun.

The normally plain and boring village is covered in rainbow streamers and every house hangs colourful lanterns from their roofs and in their windows. All the local merchants set up their booths and have discounts on everything. And all the best foods are served on Souls' Day: fried bread covered in sugar, meat from things the merchants called cows, pigs, and chickens. Everything smelled so good. You could tell when the cooking started from miles away. And the traveling merchants that came to town always brought wine with them. The adults of the village always spoke of how great it was, and now that I was 16, I was hyped to try it.

The sun was getting lower, and I was starting to hear the soft chirp of the grasshoppers. I knew I should head home soon, mother would want me to help her start decoration, but I couldn't bring myself to leave the butterflies. 

I looked up when I heard soft footsteps treading through the grass.

His eyes - the colour of pine needles - bore into me; reading my very soul. I was lost in his eyes, caught in his spell. Then, he smiled, and I was finished. My legs turned to mud, my insides melted. I couldn't move if I wanted to.

"Azalea," he said, the magic word breaking my trance.

I got up and smiled. "You shouldn't sneak up on me like that," I said.

He looked me straight in the eyes, and the crooked smile I loved most spread across his face. "But it's so much fun," he said mockingly, his voice that of a hurt child.

"So to what do I owe this displeasure?" I asked jokingly.

"Your mother sent me actually. Supposedly, she wants you to help her decorate." Told ya so. "But, what I really wanted, was to see you." he said with a smile.

I quickly looked away to hide my blush; he laughed. "It's not funny, Adrian!" I scolded.

"I'm sorry," he apologized, pulling himself together. "I shouldn't laugh; but it really was funny."

"I guess..." I sighed, crossing my arms and turning away.

Adrian walked up behind me, wrapping his arms gently around my waist. I closed my eyes, taking in everything around me: the wind-swept grass brushing against my ankles, the warmth of the setting sun, the soft chirp of the grasshoppers, and Adrian’s arms around me. And yet, I was still aware of the butterflies swirling around me, though I could neither see, nor hear them...

"Let's go," he whispered, lips pressed to my ear. "Your mom's going to think I tied you up in a cave somewhere." He took my hand, leading my back towards the village.

I looked up and smiled. We could be here, in a cave, or at the center of the Earth. As long as I had Adrian, I would be happy...


I could see the village over the hills, its light shining brightly. The ovens had definitely been fired up; I could smell the sugar bread, even from so far away. I could see the merchant caravans arriving, the strange humped creatures they called camels carried them and their wares. Hand-in-hand, Adrian and I ran back to the village, like children running to a pen of new spring lambs; the setting sun, our only light.

When we finally got there, it was even more beautiful. Lights of every colour hung from houses, merchant booths, and even trees. Dyed, cloth streamers were strung from everything possible. Drums, bells, and other instruments were being brought to the village square; I could already hear their music. People carrying tables laughed, while children sang, running through the streets trying out their new, brightly painted masks. The smell of food was so over powering, I could almost taste it; the thought made my mouth water. The excitement was a buzz that slithered and squirmed like a snake through each and every one of us; the air was like lightning. This would be a great Souls Day; I could feel it.

Though I didn't want to leave, Adrian had been right: if I wasn't home soon, my mom would start to worry.

Adrian left me at the door, saying he'd see me tomorrow at sunrise.

I opened the door slowly to the sound of mom chopping potatoes and my sister "ooing" at a lantern.

Slowly, I took hold of the door handle, my heart racing. My other hand trembled as I tried to steady the door with it. I moved it at a turtle's pace, willing it not to make a sound. But the soft click as it shut was enough to alert my mother of my presence.

“Azalea!” she screamed, storming into the room, face purple, chopping knife still tightly clasped in her hand.

Too late, I thought, cursing the door.

“You’ve been gone all day,” she said. “You know you were supposed to be home to help me decorate.”

“I know, mom,” I insisted. “I swear, I was coming home, and then Adrian-”  

“Again with that boy!” she cut me off.

Just then, my younger sister Snapdragon ran into the room cheering, “Azy”. 

I swung her into my arms saying, “Hey, Snaps”.

“You know I don’t like you being alone with that boy,” she warned.

“Then why did you send him?!” I accused irritation and distain written across my face.

“As if anyone else would be able to find you?” she questioned her voice barely above a whisper. She had a point; Adrian knew me better than I knew myself.

By now, the only light came from the lanterns hung in the windows. Their dim glow illuminated my mom’s face; I’d never noticed how old and frail she’d begun to look. Deep rings hung from her tired eyes. Her graying hair, thin and lifeless, locks straying every which way from her loose, messy ponytail. For the first time, my brave, strong-willed mother looked small and fragile, like the slightest touch, the weakest wind, would shatter her.

I could see the concern in her eyes. I wanted to tell her that there was nothing to worry about. That she’d met Adrian, and knew I was safe with him. But I couldn’t bring myself to argue with those broken eyes.

“I’m sorry, mom,” I apologized. “I’ll put Snaps to bed.” Holding my ten-year-old sister tightly, I left the room, unable to meet that sorrowful gaze any longer.

“Why do I have to go to bed?” Snaps complained when we got to her room. I lay her on the bed, pulling the blankets over her.

“Mom’s having a hard time because it’s Souls Day tomorrow.” I explained. “It’d just be a lot easier for her if she didn’t have to worry about us for a while.”

“But Souls Day is fun!” she pointed out.

“I know.” I told her. “But, remember when Dad died and mom didn’t eat, sleep, or talk for a week? Since Souls Day is a day to remember the dead, all those wounds get torn open again. Last year she didn’t even leave the house. Instead of being happy that Dad’s in a better place, she feels sad and lonely because she misses him.

“You’re still very young, so I don’t expect you to fully understand, but that’s just how mom works.”

Though I could still see confusion, I also read understanding in her eyes. She nodded once and lay back, closing her eyes.

Just as I was walking out the door of her room, Snaps called out in a hushed, sleepy voice, “Sis, are you going to marry Drie-drie?”

I closed my eyes, replaying in my mind, this evening’s scene: Wrapped in Adrian’s arms in the fields, butterflies floating around us. I sighed, and smiling to myself I said, “I hope so.”

“Well when you do,” she added, “do you promise we’ll still be best friends?”

This time turning around, I flashed her a smile and simply said, “Promise.” Before leaving the room, closing the door behind me.


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## xxx (Nov 3, 2007)

*Spoiler*: __ 




I opened my eyes the next morning to near darkness. The sun had yet to rise. I hurried out the door, not wanting to wake my mother and sister. I walked out into the garden, my eyes still adjusting to the pre-dawn light. Gently snapping several flowers of different shapes, sizes, and colours from their plants, I quickly made my way down the path through the forest, picking several more blossoms on my way.

Finally reaching the trails end after fighting through broken tree branches and avoiding sleeping animals, I gazed upon a small hill. Atop it was a single round stone and a mound of dirt, dug up and replaced only a few years prior, on which the grass had only just begun to grow again.

I placed the bundle of flowers on the grave. Kneeling down I said, Hey, Dad. How are you?

No answer. I didnt expect one.

Its Souls Day again, I said, my voice clear, but not far above a whisper.

Moms having a hard time. I guess she still doesnt know how to handle you being gone. I heard her crying again last night Is that what real love is like, Dad?

Maybe that means I do love Adrian. I dont think I could bear to lose him. Moms been throwing fits every time she finds out Im alone with him. You were never like that. I remember how you used to say all the time how much you liked him. Snaps likes him too. Last night, she even asked if I was going to marry him.

I wish you could see her. Shes growing up so fast. Im not sure she completely understands about you being gone. After all, she was so young when you passed. But shes growing up wonderfully. Shes incredibly smart. I think youd have been proud I know you would

I looked up at the sky. The sun was slowly ascending, turning the sky brilliant shades of pink and orange.

Sorry, Dad, I said, but mom will be waking up soon, and if Im not there when she does well, you know how she gets.

Jogging back into the forest I called over my shoulder, Be back later, Dad!

I skidded to as stop in front of the house and bolted through the door, still being mindful of the volume of my footsteps.

I bounded through the door to my room as quickly and quietly as I could, jumping onto the bed and yanking the blankets over my head, just as the door creaked open to my mother calling, Azalea, time to wake up!


The streets were packed with people laughing and singing. Children ran through the crowds, cheering and playing games while they trailed streamers behind them. They crowded around every place selling sugar bread and other treats, begging the shopkeepers for freebies and discounts. Many were drawn to the village square, where the instruments that had been placed yesterday, came to life in song; sweet melodies filled the air.

My mother and sister were somewhere in the flock of people. Theyd begged me to come with, but I declined saying that I had to wait for Adrian.

So there I sat in front of the house, watching the joyous ensemble, yet unable to join it. My head in my hands, elbows perched on my knees; I sat hunched over, staring at the ground. My eyes glanced over every grain of dirt and even the tiniest of pebbles, until a shadow fell over them. 

I looked up, careful not to meet his gaze; hoping to avoid another incident like yesterday. Adrian smiled down at me, the sun blazing behind him, I squinted against the blinding light.

Crossing my arms and turning away, I refused to look at him. He sat beside me and I turned the other way. You look like a lemon, he laughed, his remark about the exotic fruits the traveling merchants would sometimes bring was directed at the sour look on my face. Come on, he coaxed, What did I do this time?

Now, I looked into his eyes, glaring daggers sharp enough to skin a bear in one sweep. Well, Adrian, I said his name like a curse, Youve dept me here all day. The tension in my voice began to grow. Ive been sitting here, waiting for you, while everyone else is enjoying themselves; right in front of me no less! What ever happened to Ill meet up with you at sunrise?!

I had some things to take care of, he said it like it was a joke. Im not sure if I loved or hated that about him, but Adrian thought life in general was a joke. Besides, you could have gone without me he said, like he was telling me I had two eyes.

No I couldnt! I shot back. Not without you.

He smiled, putting his lips to mine. Pulling away he said, Aww Thats so sweet of you, his voice was like a mother praising a small child.

He stood up and smiled down on me. My eyes followed him; the sun blinding me for the second time. He extended his hand. Taking it, he pulled me to my feet; his green eyes blazing.

So what were those things you had to take care of? I asked as he pulled me into the crowd.

He glanced at me; a mischievous smile crossing his lips. Well for now its a secret But youll find out eventually... he trailed off.

I just smiled. Normally I would object, but today I was happy just to be there, celebrating with Adrian.


The festival was even better than I had hoped. I had never seen the villagers so happy. Im sure the spirits were pleased. I hoped the Souls Day after my death would be half as good as this years.

After the festival, each of the villagers who had lost someone in the past year would walk into the center of the village square, where the people had already gathered into a huge circle. They were to light a candle, symbolizing that even though the person had passed on, their soul still lived on, burning brighter than ever. Adrian and his father, along with several other villagers, stepped forward.

I had loved Adrians mother like a sister. She always was kind to me. And when Snaps was just a baby, and mother had to worry about her all the time, Adrians mom  Isabella was her name  had taken care of me.

The whole village had admired her, not only for her kindness and good virtue, but for her beauty. She was truly an angel among frogs. Compared to the rest of us, with out dark hair and dirt coloured eyes, her hair, the colour of fire, and her eyes, the same brilliant green as her sons, looked even more radiant. Until shed married Adrians dad, she lived with her father who was a traveling merchant; much like the ones who visited us several times a year. She would mesmerize Adrian and I with tales of the strange places she had been, and the interesting people she had met. Her death took its toll on all of us.

Watching her son and husband lighting their candles, all I could think of was that that had been me only two years ago. I wondered if mother had gone to visit father yet that day.

By the time the lighting of the candles was completed, the sun had begun to set; the day was nearly over. I hadnt seen my mother or sister in a while because Id been walking around with Adrian since the ceremony had ended. Every time he looked at me, I noticed that mischievous glint in his eyes. He was keeping something from me, and I was determined to find out what.

Just as the last rays of sun began to dwindle away over the hills, Adrian took my wrist and said, Come on, before dragging me back to the hills where hed found me the day before.

When we finally got there, I looked into Adrians eyes and asked, So whats the big secret?

He smiled and pulled out a red, woven bracelet. The golden beads twisted throughout the strands and glinted in the soft, pink light that the sun had left in its wake.

I held me breath as he gently tied it around my wrist. Darkness fell, and the stars and fireflies surrounded us. You wanted to know what the secret was Now I just hope you say yes. My favorite crooked smile crossed his lips again. Sorry I wasnt there this morning; I was getting permission for this.

For a while, I forgot to breathe. I didnt blink either. No thought crossed my mind. And automatically I breathed, Yes. Yes, Adrian.

He smiled, I thought that would be your answer. Wont your sister be pleased? He knew? I guess it didnt matter. I couldnt be happier. My body didnt feel like my own. My brown eyes met his green ones, and I felt a spark. I knew it was love...

Then someone screamed.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 5, 2007)

Right now I'm thinking of extending my story to include another generation. But if I do that I'm concerned it could turn into a generic save the world/universe plot. Right now it's a far cry from that. Hmmm, I see other possibilities.


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## Namin? (Nov 10, 2007)

I'm writing a story called Black Cross for my friend in the hospital. She is currently suffering from cancer. At first it was a little thing that I wanted to do just for her... but I'm thinking of getting it published as I am around the 150th page.
Even if I don't get it published though, I atleast want her to read it. I made the main charatcer Fayth, after her; *Supportive, Determined, Never loses hope.*

I'm thinking of posting it on NF to get peoples' opinions but the story is long... it is an interesting fiction, though.


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## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Nov 10, 2007)

Archon zekrish said:


> Just tell me what country it is and i can help ya out mate



Sorry for the late post .... Me Indian. There is loads of stuff to take from Indian mythology . 

How does one plan out when writing a long book. I am currently reading a 900 page epic which juggles about 10 major plotlines at the same time (Book is Midnight Tides by Steven Erikson ) it is kinda difficult to even imagine how he has done that ....


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## Holadrim (Nov 11, 2007)

Totally nutcased insane level of imagination and put-in-order-stuff-memory?


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## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Nov 11, 2007)

Yeah ! it is mind boggling to even try to contemplate how he handles so many plot threads without getting them jumbled up ...


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## Caladan Brood (Nov 11, 2007)

He's cheating.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 11, 2007)

I actually got a lot of writing done last night, much to my surprise. This new story is going to be hard because its third person and theres a lot of characters running around.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 11, 2007)

I started writing again as well. I think I'm getting better at individualizing characters.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 11, 2007)

Well I have teenage characters right now I am dealing with. All of them around the ages of 15 and 16 and I am walking this line between people understanding them and being in their heads and this becoming a silly teen drama.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 11, 2007)

In this chapter I'm working in the late teen to 20 something range.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 11, 2007)

See I am a little weary of it because this is a whole story where I have a huge age gap. Most of my main characters are in their mid thirties, but this time around the teenage characters play large role. So I have those two conflicting sides to work with. It's bound to pose a challenge.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 11, 2007)

The age range is crazy in my story. I've got main characters ranging from 16 to 103. My dynamic lies in split generation.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 11, 2007)

Luneas said:


> The age range is crazy in my story. I've got main characters ranging from 16 to 103. My dynamic lies in split generation.



I don't even like to calculate some of the ages of characters, like the older vampires. Most of the time they're not in the story really. But some of the vampires are over one thousand years old. Those are the ones that are really not around. Most of them are about 60 to 70 years old.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 11, 2007)

The oldest characters in my story are over 5000 years old.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 11, 2007)

Luneas said:


> The oldest characters in my story are over 5000 years old.



Well aren't they Angels? Angels are going to be real old. But then I have some young Angels in the story. The youngest on is six years old, but she's pretty powerful.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 11, 2007)

There are no angels in my story. The oldest are the god mages.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 11, 2007)

Luneas said:


> There are no angels in my story. The oldest are the god mages.



Oh I thought that it was you who was telling me about the story that had Angels in it earlier in the thread? 

Well I've got Angels and Demons too, they're really old. And then there are half Angels, Nephilim which are usually a lot younger. 

What's a God Mage?


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## Lord Yu (Nov 11, 2007)

I decided against them. Back then the concepts of Angels and demons were originally vaguely defined. Now there are some angelic references. There are still demons but they are also blurred definition as it goes further.

There are about 5 God mages in my story. They rule the various territories of my world. One of the main antagonists is one of the God mages.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 11, 2007)

Luneas said:


> I decided against them. Back then the concepts of Angels and demons were originally vaguely defined. Now there are some angelic references. There are still demons but they are also blurred definition as it goes further.
> 
> There are about 5 God mages in my story. They rule the various territories of my world. One of the main antagonists is one of the God mages.



The strange thing is this is the third story in and I have only introduced one full angel character who knows what she is. The Nephilim have no idea they even have powers right now. Sometimes I think that in scope things seem like they will take less time than they really do when you start to write them, you know what I mean. 

I figured by now that I would have had progressed further, but then again its not too terribly bad. I am making some progress. 

There are several references to Heaven and Hell at this time in my story, but later there will be actually things taking place in both places. But one of the big things I am writing about is struggle with morals when fighting something that is by definition evil. 

Back when I planned this whole thing out, I had these cool ideas. But I was in Junior High and I left serious plot holes in there that I have just now realized how to cover. Like I didn't even know what I wanted the main story behind the demon that's attacking to be. Now that I have figured that out I am trying to flesh things out with a richer back story, more interesting characters, and a core of good characters in situations that are what the story needs them to be to develop in the right direction.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 11, 2007)

When I first had this idea there were terrists n' mad scientists in it. This story has had so many rewrites. Well there's still a touch of mad science in it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 11, 2007)

Yeah I have had a lot of rewrites too. I actually started out wanting to write fan fiction. But I got upset with fan fiction and with the people who read a lot of it on sites like fan fic.net.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 11, 2007)

I started out with the idea of stuffing as much dynamic action into a video game as possible. I still have alot of action, but my story shifted toward character shaping and mindfuck. Lots of mindfuck.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 11, 2007)

Luneas said:


> I started out with the idea of stuffing as much dynamic action into a video game as possible. I still have alot of action, but my story shifted toward character shaping and mindfuck. Lots of mindfuck.



I learned that action was a pain to write a lot of the time and that its hard to give it variety. I keep plenty of it on hand. But with weapons ranging from swords to large guns as well as weapons that aren't really used anywhere else (a harp that doubles as an axe) its kind of hard to do a lot of action that makes sense and isn't all over the place.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 11, 2007)

I'm good with a variety of violence.


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## _allismine_ (Nov 12, 2007)

I've got all the characters written out and the plotline sketched.

I'm having a rather hard time figuring out how to open, though. xDD


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## 'REDHAIRED' SHANKS (Nov 12, 2007)

Luneas said:


> I decided against them. Back then the concepts of Angels and demons were originally vaguely defined. Now there are some angelic references. There are still demons but they are also blurred definition as it goes further.
> 
> There are about 5 God mages in my story. They rule the various territories of my world. One of the main antagonists is one of the God mages.



Influenced by Berserk arent ya 

Are there any useful links online which give info on how to write and stuff ?? It is kinda hard to just, start writing 

thanks


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## Lord Yu (Nov 12, 2007)

I guess I could be influenced by Berserk. It is one of my favorite manga.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 12, 2007)

Feanor - The spirit of fire said:


> Influenced by Berserk arent ya
> 
> Are there any useful links online which give info on how to write and stuff ?? It is kinda hard to just, start writing
> 
> thanks



Not sure about links, there are plenty of good books, I would just look for the Readers Digest series of things. Also there is a book called "Stephen King on Writing" or something to that affect, its really good and its a nice read because its very witty and in your face. 

As far as online. I was trying to start a writers forum, but I could never generate enough interest. 



_allismine_ said:


> I've got all the characters written out and the plotline sketched.
> 
> I'm having a rather hard time figuring out how to open, though. xDD



I seem to have no trouble coming up with opening lines and the like, its anything after that which seems to give me the trouble.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 12, 2007)

As I've mentioned, I dislike aids for writing.  I like it raw and purely from the imagination.


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## Tyrael (Nov 12, 2007)

No been around here for a while.

Alrite, pacing? (I may have mentioned its my arch nemesis)
To what extent can I get away with copius amounts of dialogue and fairly sparse but ott description, in a thriller-esque style? I am reading a bit of William Gibson as a reference and it is worrying me slightly, not that that will really change my style. Well probably not.


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## BandGeekNinja (Nov 12, 2007)

I have a basic idea of what I want to write though I'm still fleshing out the major events in my head. I do, however, have the prolouge written and I would post except that it's 4000 over the 10000 text limit


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## Tyrael (Nov 13, 2007)

BandGeekNinja said:


> I have a basic idea of what I want to write though I'm still fleshing out the major events in my head. I do, however, have the prolouge written and I would post except that it's 4000 over the 10000 text limit



Then just quote a section of it, or double post *gasp* if u feel its necessary.


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## Robotkiller (Nov 13, 2007)

Luneas said:


> As I've mentioned, I dislike aids for writing.  I like it raw and purely from the imagination.



Don't I recall you stating that you listen to music as you write?


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## Lord Yu (Nov 13, 2007)

Yes, but I use that to enhance the mood. Also I can't stand the silence.


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## Caladan Brood (Nov 14, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> No been around here for a while.
> 
> Alrite, pacing? (I may have mentioned its my arch nemesis)
> To what extent can I get away with copius amounts of dialogue and fairly sparse but ott description, in a thriller-esque style? I am reading a bit of William Gibson as a reference and it is worrying me slightly, not that that will really change my style. Well probably not.



If you're thinking of writing thriller...avoid large chunks of dialogue. ala james bond. xD


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## Boromir (Nov 14, 2007)

As a school project i had to do something that encompasses around a month or two, so i decided to write a short novel on a low-life criminal. I think it turned out really well (hopefully it'll bring me good grades) and now i'd love to go for something longer, maybe science-fiction. After watching Death Note i kinda wanna write a thriller about a psycho. I tried that a long time ago, after watching Red Dragon...

I had a lot of novels that i started and they never made it past 20 pages...


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## Noah (Nov 15, 2007)

I'm pretty much certain that I won't be finishing anything by the end of Nano. I've only written a few pages for my story and I'm forcing pretty much all of it.

So here's the first page of what I started. Be brutally honest with me. Tell me if it's interesting or engaging. More importantly, if a collection of short stories started like this, would you even continue reading this character's story? Or would you give up after the first page?



*Spoiler*: __ 




Often times we find that we are labeled by the things that we do or what we say. Regardless of whom we really are on the inside, a single utterance and action can define an entire life.

Stephen Graves knows that fact only too well. For nearly his entire life, he has been called a problem, a menace, a criminal or just plain dangerous. His basic rights as a human were stolen from him before he had even learned to appreciate the female gender and he has been fighting for these rights ever since. Occasionally a glimmer of hope shows itself and he reaches for it, but finds it being stripped from his grasp just a short while after getting his hands on it.

This is typical of many men like Stephen and he knows this as well. People like him struggle through life, knowing that all he will do is cause others to struggle just as he has, and sometimes worse that that. A little known fact about Stephen is that he has two daughters, ages seven and ten, each with a different mother. Both mothers are ashamed of the father, and the father is ashamed that they feel this way, but that is not an excuse as to why it is not widely known. Stephen does not wish anyone to know that he has children, because there might be someone who would harm them just to get back at him. He had made enough enemies over the course of his life that the possibility is not unlikely. 

Since he has not seen either of these girls grow past the age of two, he treats them as if they never existed, regardless of how much his heart aches to see them. Of the many mistakes he has made throughout his life, the biggest regrets Stephen has are that he brought two young women into the world who would never know their father because of the foolish choices he had made. To try and remedy this, each girl?s mother received a fair sum of money on the child?s birthday. Stephen had to arrange that it was donated under the guise of inheritance from a distant relative on the mother?s side, because both mother?s, being the scrupulous women that they are, would consider any money from Stephen to be dirty money. This was all he could do to help his daughters and he knew that even though it did not make up for the absence of a real father, it did help them get by.

One would think that living in the 22nd century, there would be no poverty. In a world where there are androids so humanistic that it was barely possible to tell the difference from a glace, one would think that such simple problems had been solved. Humanity had finally created that world where androids did all the work and simple resources were in such a surplus that it cost next to nothing to feed a family. The synthetic gardener. The flying automobile. The automated home. The utopian dream.

This was all for the wealthy. The less fortunate, however, remained where they had been for the past three hundred years. Just as it had been for centuries; the rich became richer and the poor become poorer.

Unfortunately for the bastard children of Stephen Graves, they belong in the latter category. That is why he spent every waking moment in a concrete building on an offshore island. Stephen knew that his daughters deserved better than what they had been born into, so he committed crimes against the upper class and used up his three strikes. At the age of 31, Stephen Graves awoke every morning to the sight of the concrete ceiling of his cell. Until the day when he did not wake up, that is how his day would start in Das Tiefe- the prison once known as Alcatraz, but now only known to the inmates as The Deep.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 15, 2007)

I think I have fallen into the overdramatizing trap.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 15, 2007)

It's a trap!


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## Lord Yu (Nov 15, 2007)

> Its not a nightmare. Not a nightmare. A beautiful dream. A piece of heaven that sends a stream down her cheeks. Peace alone with the one she hated so much. Quiet time together in a place like that of their early days. A sick joke crafted by the imagination of a past life. But still her fondest wish. Her heart fills her body with energy. Pumping blood fast flows to bring her life. A hand twitches, lids peel open. An arm reaches for the air. Emerald eyes lock on an odd looking old man. Deranged determination propels her ill body to lift itself. Without speaking she attempts to rise out of bed. The old man pushes her back down telling her she's ill. She tries to give him a waking nightmare but she's still to weak. She falls down.



ITS A TRAP!


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## Noah (Nov 15, 2007)

So...that's a no go then?

I've been thinking I should drop that in more subtlety later and just get to the action packed shenanigans that ensues a few pages after that crap. It's meant to be a misleading opening, but damn, if it really falls into the trap then me thinks it needs to go.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 15, 2007)

I didn't say anything about yours and the quoted text is mine.


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## Noah (Nov 15, 2007)

Ah. Well.

Now don't I feel silly.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 15, 2007)

So is my piece too over dramatic?


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## Caladan Brood (Nov 16, 2007)

Setences are way too disjointed.
I love using short sentences; they need to flow though, and that doesnt IMO.


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## Holadrim (Nov 16, 2007)

I tend to make the senteces TOO long due to me forgetting some of the ideas I get up (too many at a time it seems) and need to read through the text to fully realize this (am to lazy reading it as it is though ). But when I come to think of it I rarely have tried daring reading my work through.... a change is needed there I think. XD


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 16, 2007)

Holadrim said:


> *I tend to make the senteces TOO long due to me forgetting some of the ideas I get up (too many at a time it seems) and need to read through the text to fully realize this (am to lazy reading it as it is though ).* But when I come to think of it I rarely have tried daring reading my work through.... a change is needed there I think. XD



I think this speaks for itself. 

Try making the thoughts themselves shorter, think of one thing and let it lead to another. Don't put all the actions down at once. 



Caladan Brood said:


> Setences are way too disjointed.
> I love using short sentences; they need to flow though, and that doesnt IMO.



Well sentence length can be used to express emotion. A friend of mine taught me that you can do a lot with a character through just thoughts on paper and making the sentences reflect that emotion. Short quick sentences to highlight indecisiveness in a scene. It can work some of the time, but I think it needs to be used sparingly.


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## Tyrael (Nov 16, 2007)

The overdramatic piece could be good depending how you lead out of it, and if overall its representative of the protagonists mind set at the time and perpetuated to the needed extent then the dysfunctionality is definetly not a bad thing, coupled with the almost cliche prose it could work very well. As long as you watch your style then its fine, the narrative voice is slightly inconsistent I found though.


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## Kahvehane (Nov 16, 2007)

I'm currently in the process of writing a trilogy that I hope to some day publish. I have the basic plot already in my head, though I'm in the process of character development and adding additional plot twists that just come to me as I'm writing. I literally JUST started and I'm up to about 34 pages. Its really more along the lines of a "rough draft". I plan to write the basic story and go back and add my extra descriptive information, additional evens...etc.

Im writing it in an english journal for my ap class. I'm the best writer in the class (hope im not coming off as having a big ego, i don't. it's just fact). So far, as my teacher (formerly professor), my story is fabulous.  I like complimants. They help boost my confidence in my ability.

The story is an epic, romance, fantasy, adventure, and tragedy in one.

Also, during the writing process I've become particularly fascinated by one of my lead characters. He's a suave, cold-hearted, enigmatic character who was greatly affected by his past (i might also add that among the other protagonists, who are mercenaries, he has the most ability and strength). I intend to write a novel that focuses primarily on him and tell his back story, answering questions like where is he from? Was he always the way he is? If not, what happened in his life to change his characteristics? How did whatever happened to him affect him in particular? etc.


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## Caladan Brood (Nov 17, 2007)

Want to post some parts of it?


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## ichigaara (Nov 17, 2007)

if this would have been a fc, i would have gladly join. thank god that novelists also exist here. i should say that most of my novels are written by hand, so i quite drive myself mad on finding paper and pen to write


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 17, 2007)

I'm starting to think that my third person narration is weak, weaker than it was like a year or so ago around this time. So I think in light of that I'm going to spend some time studying third person narration, my own, that of other writers and reading books on point of view. I might spend some time at the Barnes and Noble looking over books written in third person in different genres.



Light Artist said:


> I'm currently in the process of writing a trilogy that I hope to some day publish. I have the basic plot already in my head, though I'm in the process of character development and adding additional plot twists that just come to me as I'm writing. I literally JUST started and I'm up to about 34 pages. Its really more along the lines of a "rough draft". I plan to write the basic story and go back and add my extra descriptive information, additional evens...etc.
> 
> Im writing it in an english journal for my ap class. I'm the best writer in the class (hope im not coming off as having a big ego, i don't. it's just fact). So far, as my teacher (formerly professor), my story is fabulous.  I like complimants. They help boost my confidence in my ability.
> 
> ...



Looking forward to hearing more about this.



ichigaara said:


> if this would have been a fc, i would have gladly join. thank god that novelists also exist here. i should say that most of my novels are written by hand, so i quite drive myself mad on finding paper and pen to write



There is a writing fanclub, sadly no one posts in it.


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## ichigaara (Nov 17, 2007)

there is? where? could you give me the address?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 17, 2007)

ichigaara said:


> there is? where? could you give me the address?



I don't have it anymore, its so dead and been dead for so long. You're better off just being here...


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## ichigaara (Nov 17, 2007)

well, then that's good. you could check the naruto fanfic and the bleach fanfic section, if you wish to read some of my work


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 17, 2007)

ichigaara said:


> well, then that's good. you could check the naruto fanfic and the bleach fanfic section, if you wish to read some of my work



Maybe, I haven't touched fan fiction for years...its just some of the stuff I ran into back then turned me off to it. I used to write Zelda fan fics, as a matter of a fact I learned to write from one of the most popular Zelda fan fic writers out there, Juliet Singleton. She and I are good friends now.


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## ichigaara (Nov 17, 2007)

that's nice to hear  . and not to worry, i'll post as often as i can, only to make this thread last. there are few of us in this world who possess this talent of words' art.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 17, 2007)

I'm beginning to think my action whoring is making the plot suffer.


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## Kanae-chan (Nov 17, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I think this speaks for itself.
> 
> Try making the thoughts themselves shorter, think of one thing and let it lead to another. Don't put all the actions down at once.
> 
> ...


You were talking about sentances, correct?

Yes, long/short sentances have their purposes. For instance, I will use run ons/realllly long sentances if I want to show someone's feelings/personality. For instance, one of my OC's Rikku would say this:

"Ohhhmygosh! Did you hear about how Marth ate the peanut then started to choke on that stupid little peanut and I had to get it out after he passed out because you know i'm trained in First Aid right and ohmygosh it was so scary I thought he would die."

Personally, from reading that sentence, I could tell that A. She is a very hyper, bubbly kind of girl and B. She was freaked out and emotional.

Short sentances work best for getting straight-to-the-point kind of characters, or just showing bluntness. For Instance:

"No." Kira declared when the street thug offered her pot.
OR:
"umm, no, I mean, I don't think so...well, uh...no." Kira stammered as the street thug offered her pot.

See? Two COMPLETELY different personalities.

Anyways, my opinion is done .


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## Lord Yu (Nov 17, 2007)

And now an example of an actual personality.


> “Before we got to her. She was surrounded by monsters, right. Well, she was completely focused on that guy. Stroking his hair and stuff. Even when the monsters came like that close.  We were sweatin pretty bad and tryin to get to her before they got there. But this beam shot out of nowhere and tore it to shit! Oh and heres the real ballkicker. It was an Nseed! I swear to high hell. We were oh my -”



As you can tell, this guy is really kinda laid back and loose with his language. You can also tell he's talking to friends.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 17, 2007)

Kanae-chan said:


> You were talking about sentances, correct?
> 
> Yes, long/short sentances have their purposes. For instance, I will use run ons/realllly long sentances if I want to show someone's feelings/personality. For instance, one of my OC's Rikku would say this:
> 
> ...



Well yes this is especially true for dialog. But I meant any kind of sentences. The sentences used for narration can also give the reader clues to the mood of the scene. Its harder to give an example. 

I have a very geeky girl character who actually talks in long run ons and giggles in an odd way...it tells a little about her because most of her run-ons are her over analyzing things.


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## lerlerson (Nov 17, 2007)

I'm currently writing a novel which I hope would someday be published- but being my first large-scale novel I've ever written, I honestly doubt it. I had an idea for a trilogy about magic, but I've only written down the large plot points to it at this point, I haven't started adapting, as I DO want to get said trilogy published... anyways, right now I'm writing a novel about time travel, specifically what happens when one travels back in time.

Well, that was awfully vague, so I'll elaborate. In my novel, when one travels through time, the laws of the universe dictate that one cannot simply disappear, it is impossible- and to travel through time, scientists need to bend that law, and indirectly make a huge mistake- whenever somebody goes back in time, somebody from that time comes to the time that the person time travelling came from... wow, that sounded retarded.

Actually, my book isn't specifically about that- my story is about a man finding a time machine in an abandoned lab his father works in (don't worry, I'm not a fool, there's a reason the lab is simply abandoned). He is a historian, and had been specifically researching whether or not Hitler decided to do what he did to the Jews by himself or was paid to. He decides to take the time machine back to Nazi Germany, and discovers upon landing that Hitler is missing. He lands in Hitler's quarters, and Hitler's subordinates think that he has kidnapped Hitler.

He flees, accidently leaving the time machine in Hitler's room. He disguises himself as a servant, and I'm not sure how it goes on from there- but I do know, when he returns to the present, he discovers that his time travelling has had dire consequences- without being able to announce Hitler's death, the world starts to think that Germany didn't invade Poland, it was the exact opposite. Present-day Germans think Hitler never existed, that they were tricked, and have been secretly planning an assault on the rest of the world. Hitler showing up in Germany only sets it off- he has grasped the situation, and has said that he is the grandson of the original Hitler, who's family name was shamed by the rest of the world.

Angry and finally having a leader to rally under, Germany launches a full-scale assault on the rest of the world, using weapons and technology stolen from other countries, capturing Poland. The main character (name pending) realizes that he needs to send Hitler back to his own time, but can't get into Germany to do that. What's worse, is that the President of the United States is missing, and the American politicians have been grasping for control of the country, resulting in the US erupting in civil war. Canada has attempted to move into the US to stop the civil war, but was attacked by Germany from the northern seas in the process. Canada retaliates by revealing that they had been working on buffing up their military for years, and actually had more advanced technology than America the whole time- they were truly the superpower of the world, but never revealed it due to being strongly anti-war.

Meanwhile, the Germans attempt to invade Japan, and suceed in capturing the southern half, but the Japanese use their airforce to bomb the attacking forces, decimating most due to the advanced nature of their bombs. Either way, I intend for the main character to somehow send Hitler back, but when he returns to the future the person sent into the past is him from the future- it causes a paradox, and he dies.

Somewhere in all this, near the end, the reason the lab was abandoned is revealed. His father and the other scientists finished the machine, and decided to go back to 1999 for a trial run- but they accidentally send a US CIA (or FBI, dunno which would actually know this) to the future, an agent who had knowledge of the hijackings of 9/11 and intended to warn the US government- in essence, they caused 9/11. Only the ones involved in the project know this has happened (haven't figured out the finer details of this point yet), and horrified, they flee their lab, leaving it abandoned.

Anyways, I'll have to change some points to make this historically accurate, by either way, I think I like this idea, a lot.


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## Kanae-chan (Nov 17, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well yes this is especially true for dialog. But I meant any kind of sentences. The sentences used for narration can also give the reader clues to the mood of the scene. Its harder to give an example.
> 
> I have a very geeky girl character who actually talks in long run ons and giggles in an odd way...it tells a little about her because most of her run-ons are her over analyzing things.


Yes, that is true. Run-ons can also mean that the person is slightly flustered or distressed. for instance:

"H-hey Matt, um, I heard you like Kira, and I mean that's okay, and I shouldn't get in your personal life, because I don't matter to you, but I could, and I wish I could" Sarah stammered as she talked to Matt.

But, yea, the mood can be set via that, too


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 19, 2007)

Kanae-chan said:


> Yes, that is true. Run-ons can also mean that the person is slightly flustered or distressed. for instance:
> 
> "H-hey Matt, um, I heard you like Kira, and I mean that's okay, and I shouldn't get in your personal life, because I don't matter to you, but I could, and I wish I could" Sarah stammered as she talked to Matt.
> 
> But, yea, the mood can be set via that, too



I think its more of a reinforcement thing, when you write certain words in a certain manner, it makes the thing seem a bit more believable. 

As of last night I sat down and printed out about 30 pages of excerpts from my older stories so I could sit and study them today and look over some stuff to figure out how to make my third person better. 

Its funny as I am reading this stuff it seems I've forgotten so much about how I used to write. I remember the stories and what they were about, but not so much my writing style.


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## Kanae-chan (Nov 19, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I think its more of a reinforcement thing, when you write certain words in a certain manner, it makes the thing seem a bit more believable.
> 
> As of last night I sat down and printed out about 30 pages of excerpts from my older stories so I could sit and study them today and look over some stuff to figure out how to make my third person better.
> 
> Its funny as I am reading this stuff it seems I've forgotten so much about how I used to write. I remember the stories and what they were about, but not so much my writing style.


Yes, my first fanfiction I'd ever written down was from 6th grade. It was absoulutly hilarious- and, just roaming free on FanFiction.net. The plot line wasn't that bad, but...well, It has things to be desired. I'm just letting it continue on it's (awkward) path. It's funny though because I never got a flame


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 19, 2007)

Kanae-chan said:


> Yes, my first fanfiction I'd ever written down was from 6th grade. It was absoulutly hilarious- and, just roaming free on FanFiction.net. The plot line wasn't that bad, but...well, It has things to be desired. I'm just letting it continue on it's (awkward) path. It's funny though because I never got a flame



Hmm how old are you? Never got a flame on FF.net, that's incredible. I stopped going there years back because I got out of the Fan fiction thing. But I got flamed all of the time and half of them had nothing to do with my stories. 

A lot of my characters had real strict morals or were really bad people, there were no in betweens. So people complained about it.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 19, 2007)

I think I may have found my narrative voice. The problem with my 3rd person writing is I have to establish a narrative personality and since I started the 3rd at chapter 10 I couldn't establish the voice. I've decided to continue writing to get the plot out and go back later.


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## Caladan Brood (Nov 19, 2007)

Fan fiction is generally bad. Not a good place to get advice.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 19, 2007)

I fear fanfiction. I generally avoid it like the most potent of plagues. Though even still I've seen some incredible fan fics.


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## Caladan Brood (Nov 20, 2007)

I've seen fanfics which are better than their original...they sadly all seem to stem from Harry Potter fanfics...and that's most likely due to the crap that the author actually manages to sell


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 20, 2007)

Fan fiction like any other type of writing has its good and its bad quality. Most of the time if you avoid the ones meant to push some pairing. Or the alternate universe fics, then things won't be too bad.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 20, 2007)

I'd probably read a fic based off that high school Naruto. Looks more interesting then the regular Naruto.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 21, 2007)

Luneas said:


> I'd probably read a fic based off that high school Naruto. Looks more interesting then the regular Naruto.



I hate Naruto fics because of all the Hiniata Naruto pushing. I really don't like Hinata at all.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 21, 2007)

I like NaruHina. Fits better then NaruSaku, but then again why should I give a shit? He's gonna end up with no one like shounen manga tend to do. Back on topic. I'm seriously neglecting certain storylines. I'm afraid of losing touch its been so long.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 22, 2007)

Luneas said:


> I like NaruHina. Fits better then NaruSaku, but then again why should I give a shit? He's gonna end up with no one like shounen manga tend to do. Back on topic. I'm seriously neglecting certain storylines. I'm afraid of losing touch its been so long.



When I start to lose touch with a certain storyline I usually just restart the whole mess. I got up to 13 stories last time .

My favorite dialog exchange thus far:



> ?I don?t know what the fuck to do about this guy?? Ashley said.
> 
> ?Well you could start by not saying ?fuck? so much,? Persephanie passed by and placed a drink on the table, ?You keep that up and no guy?s going to want to date you?? her tone was light hearted and playful.
> 
> ...


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## Pretty_Vacant (Nov 22, 2007)

CTK said:
			
		

> “I don’t know what the fuck to do about this guy…” Ashley said.
> 
> “Well you could start by not saying ‘fuck’ so much,” Persephanie passed by and placed a drink on the table, “You keep that up and no guy’s going to want to date you…” her tone was light hearted and playful.
> 
> ...



.


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## Tyrael (Nov 23, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> “I don’t know what the fuck to do about this guy…” Ashley said.
> 
> “Well you could start by not saying ‘fuck’ so much,” Persephanie passed by and placed a drink on the table, “You keep that up and no guy’s going to want to date you…” her tone was light hearted and playful.
> 
> ...



Lol, nice. If you want to go for humorous dailogue here is the best bit from my own writing (imo). Oh, it's not very pc so prepared to possibly be offended:


*Spoiler*: __ 



"I had an uncle in the CA once, choked to death."
"Choked to death?"
"Yeah on water, too much of it apparently."
"THAT'S CALLED DROWNING YOU FUCKING RETARD!"




This conv. is two random characters in a pub who only appear for the above dialogue. They are not very intelligent (then again I doubt that I needed to point that out).


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## Lord Yu (Nov 23, 2007)

*Spoiler*: _ example from 1st person version, to be honest the 1st person version is alot more humorous then the 3rd_ 



?You torture me for two months and a man with no eyes makes you squeamish.?  I say sliding down a little in my chair.
?Well he tried to strangle me and rape my corpse.? She tells me without dropping her cold exterior.
?Makes a little more sense. But still with your hobbies.?
?Are you implying that I'm a necrophiliac??
?Well I did die once.? She merely sighs at my remark.


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## Einstein (Nov 23, 2007)

Has this become a "post your most humorous dialogue" thread? 

Sadly, I can't share because all of what I write is mainly serious, with hardly any room for jokes. And the humor provided is simply dry, not included in dialogue. And what is including in the dialogue isn't over-the-top hilarious.

Or maybe I'm just not funny..


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## Lord Yu (Nov 23, 2007)

My story is meant to be serious but not overtly. Its humour in tragedy.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 24, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Lol, nice. If you want to go for humorous dailogue here is the best bit from my own writing (imo). Oh, it's not very pc so prepared to possibly be offended:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Reminds me of the old men in Cowboy Bebop  



JM said:


> Has this become a "post your most humorous dialogue" thread?
> 
> Sadly, I can't share because all of what I write is mainly serious, with hardly any room for jokes. And the humor provided is simply dry, not included in dialogue. And what is including in the dialogue isn't over-the-top hilarious.
> 
> Or maybe I'm just not funny..



Like we talked about the other day humor in literature is a little different than humor in a play or movie...But you have three characters in my scene I posted with varying levels of cynicism, Ashley and her father are usually very cynical and critical of others. Whereas Persephanie is the lighter side of the coin.


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## Tyrael (Nov 24, 2007)

JM said:


> Has this become a "post your most humorous dialogue" thread?
> 
> Sadly, I can't share because all of what I write is mainly serious, with hardly any room for jokes. And the humor provided is simply dry, not included in dialogue. And what is including in the dialogue isn't over-the-top hilarious.
> 
> Or maybe I'm just not funny..



I often find that providing a lighter counter-point to all the seriousness floating arounding will accentuate any sort of dramatic/tragic etc. events that occupy the same story. Also I find that often dry and subtle humour is easily as good as hyperbole anyway.


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## Einstein (Nov 24, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> I often find that providing a lighter counter-point to all the seriousness floating arounding will accentuate any sort of dramatic/tragic etc. events that occupy the same story. Also I find that often dry and subtle humour is easily as good as hyperbole anyway.


That's good to hear, because most of the humor I do have isn't in dialogue, but instead in the whatever you call the stuff that isn't dialogue, because of my voice and style of writing.


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## graysocks (Nov 25, 2007)

Finally finished reading this thread to the end ._.; mark it with a post!

I have been interested in writing for quite some time. My passion would be telling a story but in itself i find the limitations of writing put me off along with my lack of attention span. It's difficult to even read much, for me, never mind find the focus and drive to write it down in an interesting way. = s

Do any of you just want to tell a good story but find it difficult to actually produce the goods with the medium given?


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## Lord Yu (Nov 25, 2007)

I don't find written media limiting at all. You seem like a highly visual person who needs more then just text on paper.


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## graysocks (Nov 25, 2007)

Yes i think your right. I'm more of a spatial thinker but i find that writing is the best way to explore a story, more so than a film or a picture, atleast. Perhaps that's why i love manga - kinda a mix of both.

I would love to be able to enjoy writing more though so i think i will stick with it and see if i can get more out of it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 26, 2007)

graysocks said:


> Finally finished reading this thread to the end ._.; mark it with a post!
> 
> I have been interested in writing for quite some time. My passion would be telling a story but in itself i find the limitations of writing put me off along with my lack of attention span. It's difficult to even read much, for me, never mind find the focus and drive to write it down in an interesting way. = s
> 
> Do any of you just want to tell a good story but find it difficult to actually produce the goods with the medium given?



Its kind of hard to write fight action sometimes, but thats it.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 26, 2007)

Is action whoring a bad thing?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 26, 2007)

Not sure, never read many books with action so I wouldn't know.


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## Nybarius (Nov 26, 2007)

I'm writing a novella in three sets of 60 pages, which are color coded to represent aspects of the story.  It's sci-fi.  I'm writing the first and last thirty pages first, because each segment should be able to stand on its own.  Right now I'm just trying to get into the discipline of writing well every day.  It's tough.


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## Prince Leon (Nov 26, 2007)

Loony Lumps said:


> Is action whoring a bad thing?



I guess it depends on how much action you're talking about.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 26, 2007)

This is what I am working on right now, kind of the crux of my newest story, and pretty much a spoiler free portion. 



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Lord Yu (Nov 27, 2007)

Prince Leon said:


> I guess it depends on how much action you're talking about.



I remembered my story was originally a video game idea. I rescind that comment. Gotta remain true to the origins.


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## San Juan Wolf (Nov 29, 2007)

Im already writing my 5th book.They are,in order of writing:Tales of God,Tales of Blue Light,Tales of Earth,The Tournament of the Gods and The Bronze Gate and Other tales.


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## Tyrael (Nov 29, 2007)

graysocks said:


> Finally finished reading this thread to the end ._.; mark it with a post!
> 
> I have been interested in writing for quite some time. My passion would be telling a story but in itself i find the limitations of writing put me off along with my lack of attention span. It's difficult to even read much, for me, never mind find the focus and drive to write it down in an interesting way. = s
> 
> Do any of you just want to tell a good story but find it difficult to actually produce the goods with the medium given?



Kinda slow off the mark here, but I do indeed find it very hard write using the given medium: I have to work very hard for a relatively low output. I'm a bit like Rock Lee in writing, although I'm not as dedicated or as good at writing as he is a ninja, but I try. So just work at it dude, anybody can write a good story, just 'cause it comes to others easier does not make you in anyway inferior.


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## Einstein (Nov 29, 2007)

Does anyone know how one would go about creating their own planet, and making it obvious that it is a new planet, other than by saying "Here is Juranus. It was formed in 2066 by a bunch of spacerocks hitting each other. Life forms are now on it"?

The same can go on any advice you have on introducing new places that don't exist (cities, countries, etc.).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 29, 2007)

JM said:


> Does anyone know how one would go about creating their own planet, and making it obvious that it is a new planet, other than by saying "Here is Juranus. It was formed in 2066 by a bunch of spacerocks hitting each other. Life forms are now on it"?
> 
> The same can go on any advice you have on introducing new places that don't exist (cities, countries, etc.).



THats a very difficult task, one I've tried to avoid really. My best advice is remember never to use the word Earth, no Earth Magic, no Earthquakes none of it...I see that happen so many times. Use another word or something.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 29, 2007)

Earth is also a word for ground in general. It'd be rather stupid to avoid that word, in my opinion.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 29, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Earth is also a word for ground in general. It'd be rather stupid to avoid that word, in my opinion.



It'd be stupider to use it...Earth is only a word for "Ground" because we live on it. If you lived on a planet called Xelis you'd more than likely call it a Xelisquake, or Xelian Quake or something. Just something that simple can show the difference between partial immersion in a world and total. The reader should be able to slip into your book and forget Earth even exists.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 29, 2007)

I have never in the annals of fiction seen something like that. Earth is also used as a general term for ground. I'm for breaking rules. But bah


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 29, 2007)

Example, its not Literature, but I am pretty sure that in the movie Land Before Time they called Earthquakes "Ground Shakes" I'm not certain but I think it was that movie.


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## Einstein (Nov 29, 2007)

So, I ask how to tell a reader how my characters are in a created place without sounding cornball, and I get people arguing over whether or not I should should use the word "earth", even if it is in reference to ground.

If I tell you guys that there are no _____quakes in my story, will you help me out?


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## Lord Yu (Nov 29, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Example, its not Literature, but I am pretty sure that in the movie Land Before Time they called Earthquakes "Ground Shakes" I'm not certain but I think it was that movie.



That was Land Before Time. As in Rugrats with dinosaurs. Its a bad example.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 29, 2007)

JM said:


> So, I ask how to tell a reader how my characters are in a created place without sounding cornball, and I get people arguing over whether or not I should should use the word "earth", even if it is in reference to ground.
> 
> If I tell you guys that there are no _____quakes in my story, will you help me out?



Well think about it this way, I gave you part of what you needed to know. Immersion. One of the main goals is you need people to forget there is an Earth, but be able to identify with these people and events happening on a place they've never been to. 

I'm no Sci Fi Writer, the closest I can come to this is writing Zelda fan fiction and its been almost a decade since I did that. Just be sure to look at some of the greats, hmm you would need to look for some writers that do outer space stuff. Defintely check out some Issack Assimov, that guy is a God. 

You best bet is reading books by authors who write that stuff. Just like what some Philosophers said about learning. It should be looking at the ideas and ways of the best and brightest and expanding from there. 



Lord Yu said:


> That was Land Before Time. As in Rugrats with dinosaurs. Its a bad example.



How is that a bad example? Just because its not the best movie, I mean damn it was made like almost 20 years ago. 

You don't seem to understand that the idea of saying Earth is like breaking the fourth wall, that's not breaking a rule, that's just lack of imagination, that's you going from looking legit to looking like a joke in a Deadpool comic.

Its like someone saying "Dude" in a story about medieval knights that doesn't involve time travel.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 29, 2007)

No, I'm saying its bad because they get things wrong to be cute. They use Earthquake in fantasy fiction all the time.


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## Einstein (Nov 29, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well think about it this way, I gave you part of what you needed to know. Immersion. One of the main goals is you need people to forget there is an Earth, but be able to identify with these people and events happening on a place they've never been to.


I understand what you are saying. But while I'm making them forget there's an Earth, do you know any ways I can make them realize that they're on another planet?

I'm no Sci Fi Writer, the closest I can come to this is writing Zelda fan fiction and its been almost a decade since I did that. Just be sure to look at some of the greats, hmm you would need to look for some writers that do outer space stuff. Defintely check out some Issack Assimov, that guy is a God. [/quote]
Will do.



> You best bet is reading books by authors who write that stuff. Just like what some Philosophers said about learning. It should be looking at the ideas and ways of the best and brightest and expanding from there.


I read a book once, Truesight, and [really long story short] they lived on a different planet. The way they introduced the fact that they were on a different planet was that they had two guys flying in on a spaceship to deliver ome stuff, one of the guys commenting on how he'd never seen the planet before, it was so odd looking, bla bla bla. I would do something like that, but then I'd be stealing, mostly.


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## Tyrael (Nov 30, 2007)

What I think CTK is trying to say is do not actually introduce the planet, just drop in subtle hints and observations that prove it is not earth or anywhere the readers have encountered before. Or use placed dialogue, like have a character ask a question that leads to an explanation-like your example (as bad for narrative as that is sometimes it is the best way).


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## Lord Yu (Nov 30, 2007)

Could be kind of hard given the way people play around with earth.


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## Einstein (Nov 30, 2007)

I guess I'll have to go with it, seeing as you aren't helping. Maybe you should stop shooting down CTK's idea, or at least counter it with one of your own.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 30, 2007)

I'm not shooting them down. I'm just pointing out that its unnecessary and will likely throw people off in a bad way.


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## Tyrael (Nov 30, 2007)

Dude, lol, remember there is always the blurb that sumarises the book. When reading sci fi (i presume that is what you're writing) not many people automatically presume it is earth the setting is. How important is it? Just part of the overall context or inherent to the plot?


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## Einstein (Nov 30, 2007)

> I'm not shooting them down. I'm just pointing out that its unnecessary and will likely throw people off in a bad way.



So, I'm guessing everything he suggests is "unnecessary and will likely throw people off in a bad way" because you do it with everything he posts. Albeit the fact that you see it as unecessary, you aren't doing anything to help. It sort of like seeing a drowning man, and talking about how horrible it is that he's drowning, yet you make not even the slightest attempt to make it _look_ like you want to do anything about it, except talk.



Tyrael said:


> Dude, lol, remember there is always the blurb that sumarises the book. When reading sci fi (i presume that is what you're writing) not many people automatically presume it is earth the setting is. How important is it? Just part of the overall context or inherent to the plot?


It's not _that_ important, I'd just like the readers to know. I guess I could put it in the blurb then.. I didn't even think about that. And if I don't have a blurb, you're right. When it's sci-fi, people don't really think it's on Earth. Thank you.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 30, 2007)

It wasn't that that made jump in. My issue was the earthquake thing. I don't care about the other stuff.


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## Einstein (Nov 30, 2007)

I just happened to notice that it's always whatever he posts, and it's always just him that you disagree with, and no one else.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 30, 2007)

I disagree with CTK on alot of things, but right now it was just the Earthquake deal.


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## Tyrael (Nov 30, 2007)

JM said:


> It's not _that_ important, I'd just like the readers to know. I guess I could put it in the blurb then.. I didn't even think about that. And if I don't have a blurb, you're right. When it's sci-fi, people don't really think it's on Earth. Thank you.



Look dude, when push comes to shove it's your book and whatever you choose to do is right.

Lord Yu, oh right, i kinda get you now, but aren't you, perhaps, labouring the point slightly? Oh well, we should probs just move on anyway.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 1, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> What I think CTK is trying to say is do not actually introduce the planet, just drop in subtle hints and observations that prove it is not earth or anywhere the readers have encountered before. Or use placed dialogue, like have a character ask a question that leads to an explanation-like your example (as bad for narrative as that is sometimes it is the best way).



More or less...

That's the thing I was always taught about writing and when I was told, I noticed it more and more. When you write something, like most of the time showings better than telling. Instead of saying someone is sad, show it through their actions and words! Its not too hard, but it makes the story so much better. 

The same is true here, don't say the planet isn't Earth, don't even mention Earth...like I said earlier. You could do something like randomly bring up some small fact that point out how the planet is clearly not Earth...like mention that its the sixth planet from its sun. Or mention the White Dwarf Star burning high in the sky. Or twin moons...if none of those things are explained as changed (perhaps the sun burned to a white dwarf? Or a second moon got stuck in the Earth orbit) then people will know its not Earth. 

Your better off in my honest opinion not treating your reader stupid. I mean you have to tell them some things, obviously, but its always better if you can find an effective way to show them. 



Lord Yu said:


> I'm not shooting them down. I'm just pointing out that its unnecessary and will likely throw people off in a bad way.



Your original argument if I'm not mistaken was it was stupid. Now I made a suggestion about something that JM asked about writing. It wasn't me stating it as dogma. Its her story, her way of writing. But I would like to think she has a decent understanding that I don't just talk out the ass and I know a little about what I'm saying. 

What's _unnecessary_ is you shooting my ideas down, that's what your doing and for no reason other than the fact that I posted them. I don't care if you disagree with me a lot on things, she didn't ask us to discuss the pros and cons of using the word Earth in a story where there isn't an Earth. She simply asked for *suggestions* about how to write something.

Now I would like to think she also has a good understanding for how I write. How painstaking I am with characters and detail a lot of the time and how I work to make my characters and their world come to life. I am not the best writer, not even the best I know by far. But I try to get better and I take what I learn and use it to further my ability. I listen to people's suggestions even if I don't like them because there might be a little bit I can use. 

One thing I have noticed is that when I post something like that, or like about reading books to learn about writing, you've never got a suggestion of your own, you've just got a statement about how you don't like my idea. 
Honestly no one asked you. They asked for an idea, and when a logical idea is presented, the last person who should be speaking out against it is the one who doesn't have a better one. 



Tyrael said:


> Dude, lol, remember there is always the blurb that sumarises the book. When reading sci fi (i presume that is what you're writing) not many people automatically presume it is earth the setting is. How important is it? Just part of the overall context or inherent to the plot?



Yeah but that's just blatantly telling them, its too simple. It'd be much more grand if she told them. 

*@JM:* here's just something for you to chew on...don't you know those stories where you think it is actually Earth, but like around the third chapter or so some fact is revealed, usually at the end of the chapter that is not Earth. And the fact is so blatant that its undeniable.


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## Tyrael (Dec 1, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah but that's just blatantly telling them, its too simple. It'd be much more grand if she told them.



Fair point, although if grandeur isn't coming very easily or does not seem to be working then simple is good. You have to be careful about attempting to focus too much on sophistication over narrative. Unless sophistication is your goal, then avoid simplicity. Heck, when push comes to shove it's the product that matters, not what we say.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 1, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Your original argument if I'm not mistaken was it was stupid. Now I made a suggestion about something that JM asked about writing. It wasn't me stating it as dogma. Its her story, her way of writing. But I would like to think she has a decent understanding that I don't just talk out the ass and I know a little about what I'm saying.
> 
> What's _unnecessary_ is you shooting my ideas down, that's what your doing and for no reason other than the fact that I posted them. I don't care if you disagree with me a lot on things, she didn't ask us to discuss the pros and cons of using the word Earth in a story where there isn't an Earth. She simply asked for *suggestions* about how to write something.
> 
> ...


I've made it clear that I'm opposed to how to books. I'm highly in favor of raw purely from the imagination writing. I wasn't calling her stupid. I was only stating that I think the(using your example) XelisQuake thing sounds stupid. I'm all in favor of immersion. I am merely trying to prevent going so far into the immersion that it would seem like you're trying too hard. In the end though its the writer's call.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 1, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I've made it clear that I'm opposed to how to books. I'm highly in favor of raw purely from the imagination writing. I wasn't calling her stupid. I was only stating that I think the(using your example) XelisQuake thing sounds stupid. I'm all in favor of immersion. I am merely trying to prevent going so far into the immersion that it would seem like you're trying too hard. In the end though its the writer's call.



What you just said made no sense, I never accused you of calling her stupid, for one, and the Xelisquake was an example of what I was talking about to illustrate the point. It's not like its the best way. But what you don't seem to notice is that the word Earth is only used because we live on Earth, if we lived on a distant planet, there wouldn't be an Earth we knew of more than likely and we would just call them something else. 

That's like you saying "If we didn't have Coca Cola, people would still call sodas Cokes as a general term." It doesn't make sense. This isn't the chicken and the egg, this is something that blatantly came first. 

Also, you've been told by myself and other members that nothing is purely from the imagination when it comes to writing, we've all read books and seen examples of how to do things. And really, I could care less if you don't like how to books. If someone asks for help I am going to tell them what book or site or whatever to look at. If they're against them that's they're call. But we're not all going to follow "Yu's Rules of Order". 

I can accept people having different writing methods. My good friend doesn't like how to books or planning period. Where as I study, read books and plan every detail. I don't take shots at his method. But I would question any writer who thinks all ideas are directly from his head and he's the first to come up with them.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 1, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> What you just said made no sense, I never accused you of calling her stupid, for one, and the Xelisquake was an example of what I was talking about to illustrate the point. It's not like its the best way. But what you don't seem to notice is that the word Earth is only used because we live on Earth, if we lived on a distant planet, there wouldn't be an Earth we knew of more than likely and we would just call them something else.



Oh then we have a ridiculously silly misunderstanding.


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## Caladan Brood (Dec 1, 2007)

JM, depends on what you're writing.
If its a sci-fi, and its about aliens with no reference to humans/earth...don't mention them.
if its sci-fi, and humans have colonised planet X, a good way is through a prologue, writing...it is the year blablabla. humans have colonised... you get the idea. a sort of narrator voice to establish the context.

if its just like science fantasy...i'd just ignore contextualisation all up.

and everything you read...has an impact on what you write. not just, how to books.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 1, 2007)

It is true that inspiration come from everywhere.(Hell alot of my story ideas are ripped from too many anime and JRPG binges) But it doesn't make me any less opposed to those how to books.


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## Einstein (Dec 1, 2007)

Caladan Brood said:


> if its sci-fi, and humans have colonised planet X, a good way is through a prologue, writing...it is the year blablabla. humans have colonised... you get the idea. a sort of narrator voice to establish the context.
> 
> if its just like science fantasy...i'd just ignore contextualisation all up.
> 
> and everything you read...has an impact on what you write. not just, how to books.


See, that's exactly what I was trying not to do.

But I think I know how I'm going to do it now. It'll be like narrative, except with dialogue and lots of band instruments.

Thank you.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 1, 2007)

Caladan Brood said:


> JM, depends on what you're writing.
> If its a sci-fi, and its about aliens with no reference to humans/earth...don't mention them.
> if its sci-fi, and humans have colonised planet X, a good way is through a prologue, writing...it is the year blablabla. humans have colonised... you get the idea. a sort of narrator voice to establish the context.
> 
> ...



Well I was kind curious to know what kind of story it was. Like out of these categories. 

And I know all books have an impact on how you write. The thing is writing isn't like television, it can't be written in the way TV shows are. Most of them are very badly written and structured so that people coming in half way through can get into it. Books aren't like that and need to be written in a different way. 



JM said:


> See, that's exactly what I was trying not to do.
> 
> But I think I know how I'm going to do it now. It'll be like narrative, except with dialogue and lots of band instruments.
> 
> Thank you.



You could use a diary entry from a character as a start and that could introduce this world. But sometimes its better to wait and reveal some stuff later. Drop small hints and over time the person reading it will know this is not Earth, that this is a new world. 

Make up new diseases, not just the flu with some prefix, make up a word. Don't be afraid to do that from time to time. I guess theres a fine line between overboard and enough. 

There are so many things you could change, think that not every society has to progress the same. Take into consideration what this planet is like. What are the resources? What would these resources more than likely cause the people to be like. Would they live in big cities or small colonies? Would they have developed a lot of mass capacity vehicles or would they travel mostly alone, or just walk? 

This world you create has to be in sync to seem real. Make the people fit to the place and the place fit to the people I guess is what I am saying.


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## Tyrael (Dec 2, 2007)

So, in pledge to bring this thread out of a huge ego storm (mine's the biggest btw), to what extent does anyone else worry about the very shape of the text? I often try and channel my paragraph size and chapter length dependent on what I deem to be appropriate for what i am writing, something I am very concious I probably should not do. I have been told a lot of times that good writing should just flow and come naturally to the form it will take-I am, however, baws at this.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 2, 2007)

I just try to maintain some kind of sensible grammar.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 2, 2007)

I hate when I have too many indentions in a row, which is bad because I love dialog that shoots back and forth, just not how it looks on paper...



> ?Um, yeah,? she paused, ?Look not sure if you noticed but are you going to ask me if I want to have sex tonight or not.?
> 
> 
> ?I guess the kids aren?t here,? Prentiss looked around.
> ...


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## Lord Yu (Dec 2, 2007)

I also love dialog that shoots back and forth. Perhaps too much.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 2, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I also love dialog that shoots back and forth. Perhaps too much.



OMG, I'm gonna put this on my wall and frame it. :WOW


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## Tyrael (Dec 2, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I just try to maintain some kind of sensible grammar.



Sensible grammar? I'm sure I've come across that idea before.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 2, 2007)

Not on the internet...


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## Einstein (Dec 2, 2007)

As far as length goes, I personally think that the more serious the time is, the shorter. Shorter sentences and paragraphs for times when people are fighting, having sex, or dying. When people are having fun, I feel free to make lengthy sentences and long paragraphs. I don't know why, it's just something about making sentences shorter that make things seems more serious to me.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 2, 2007)

JM said:


> As far as length goes, I personally think that the more serious the time is, the shorter. Shorter sentences and paragraphs for times when people are fighting, having sex, or dying. When people are having fun, I feel free to make lengthy sentences and long paragraphs. I don't know why, it's just something about making sentences shorter that make things seems more serious to me.



Thats a very good practice, my friend actually suggested it to me when she read something I wrote a while ago. She told me that her creative writing teacher told her about it and she realized it more over when she thought about how people talk. It makes things seem tense if there are short fast dialog exchanges.


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## Tyrael (Dec 3, 2007)

JM said:


> As far as length goes, I personally think that the more serious the time is, the shorter. Shorter sentences and paragraphs for times when people are fighting, having sex, or dying. When people are having fun, I feel free to make lengthy sentences and long paragraphs. I don't know why, it's just something about making sentences shorter that make things seems more serious to me.



That's kind of what I was refering(argh, I've forgotten how to spell it) to, I tend to do it more to suit the climate of the story, while I will include varaition to set the mood of scenes, the consistency of limiting myself to a certain length of paragraph (be it minimum or maximum) good for setting a feel of the story as well as making sure my style doesn't vary too much.

See what I mean about the grammar?



> Not on the internet...



Lol, yeah, that's my excuse...


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## Lord Yu (Dec 3, 2007)

Ever had the issue of your protagonist turning antagonist without you realizing it?


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## Caladan Brood (Dec 4, 2007)

No, I am the puppetmaster of my story.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 4, 2007)

Some of my main characters walk the line between good and evil all of the time and I think that its a fabulous way to show that things to have a character do if you're trying to creep into the darker side of things.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 4, 2007)

I don't even know if there's a line anymore.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 4, 2007)

Good and bad in fiction ore pretty relative because the world you make up can be better or worse than our own. When viewing it through our eyes it might be clear, but to the characters thrust into this situation it won't be. 

*Has anyone ever had a live model for a character in their story?* You might remember this picture, or some of you might: 



Its a picture of this girl off deviant art. Basically when I was making my character, I found this picture and she looked just like what the character I had made as meant to. Well I spoke to this girl and she actually agreed to model for some more pictures dressed like this and the like. I'm pretty excited that I'll get to see one of my characters as they would be if they were a real life person.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 4, 2007)

My hatred for this world would not allow me to properly say I used a live model. But I haven't so that point was moot. My characters are formed from concepts and pieces of my psyche.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 4, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> My hatred for this world would not allow me to properly say I used a live model. But I haven't so that point was moot. My characters are formed from concepts and pieces of my psyche.



She was too, just so happened that besides the fact that Dee' eyes are purple and this girl has blue, they look identical. Purple isn't a common eye color, one of the rarest I think...so I can't ask for much there.


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## Tyrael (Dec 4, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I don't even know if there's a line anymore.



There never was.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> *Has anyone ever had a live model for a character in their story?*



If I were to properly answer that question you would all realise just how amateurish a writer I am. Then again i am currently going through one my regular periods of loathing everything i write. Nothing wrong with using live models though, anything that helps an author further define their visions seems good to me.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 5, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> There never was.
> 
> 
> 
> If I were to properly answer that question you would all realise just how amateurish a writer I am. Then again i am currently going through one my regular periods of loathing everything i write. Nothing wrong with using live models though, anything that helps an author further define their visions seems good to me.



Well I often times get ideas and see them applied in the real world or in another story so I scrap them. The character I came up with for the angel of Death is one of those. When I first started thining about making her I wanted something different from other versions of Death.

Automatically I went female, and really the only thing she has that is associated with Death easily is black clothes and a scythe. She's goth looking, frail, with purple eyes and dark hair. 

Then when I described her someone told me about Death being female in the Sandman comics, I almost scraped the idea. I stayed with it because I honestly didn't know and while the character in there was goth looking too, I am guessing those are the only similarities.

It was funny thought because this girl that is taking the pictures actually came along right after the characters debut in the story, so that helped me to want to keep that character.


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## Pretty_Vacant (Dec 5, 2007)

Anyone interested in having an illustrator illustrating their novel?
I just thought of this - I'm sure my sister would do it for nothing/a small sum 
She's trying to get started as a book illustrator - children's books she would probably do best at


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 5, 2007)

Pretty_Vacant said:


> Anyone interested in having an illustrator illustrating their novel?
> I just thought of this - I'm sure my sister would do it for nothing/a small sum
> She's trying to get started as a book illustrator - children's books she would probably do best at



Didn't your sister draw that little anime looking picture of you? That was good.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 5, 2007)

Several times have I (halfheartedly) sought artists to do character art. Still am really.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 5, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> Several times have I (halfheartedly) sought artists to do character art. Still am really.



Well I might look into something with Sophie's sister, my friend did some art for me, very simple stuff. Then I had some other stuff done on Deviant Art too. I know the style I want to have done and I am going to be seeking this person out again soon. Be prepared to pay like 40 bucks for it at least. 

But the person I really want is  Katie is like the goddess of drawing. I am not sure who I would have her draw but I have some ideas. I can picture how beautiful it would look too.


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## Tyrael (Dec 5, 2007)

Has anyone read the Last Hero by Terry Pratchett? Is that the style of thing we are talking about?

I have a couple of friends who are both rather good, would be far too lazy to illustrate any of my stuff I'm willing to bet though. I wouldn't pay for it, I'm the god of all scaffs.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 6, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Has anyone read the Last Hero by Terry Pratchett? Is that the style of thing we are talking about?
> 
> I have a couple of friends who are both rather good, would be far too lazy to illustrate any of my stuff I'm willing to bet though. I wouldn't pay for it, I'm the god of all scaffs.



I would pay for stuff if I had the money, I might buy something this week or next like that. I also have some friends I want to work on a collaboration for a story with, I have done it before. I loved working with another writer, it was an interesting experience. I'm really wanting my best friend to give in and finally work with me, she thinks she's a bad writer, but I have posted her stuff her before and she is damn good.


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## Pretty_Vacant (Dec 6, 2007)

My sister's DeviantART is .
I think she's a lot better at manga drawings now, if that's what you're interested in


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 6, 2007)

Pretty_Vacant said:


> My sister's DeviantART is .
> I think she's a lot better at manga drawings now, if that's what you're interested in



Yeah she's pretty good. I added her to my DA.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 7, 2007)

Another thing that would be cool if someone could bring my monster designs to life.


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## Furious George (Dec 7, 2007)

Aspiring novelist here!... Though unfortunately I have not actually began any novels as of yet. I have written a few fan fictions in the past, but slowly I am beginning to understand what G.R.R Martin meant when he said that fanficcing was bad excercise for those who are seriously aspiring to be writers. Its wasting a lot of my time and effort. 

Though I have never actually began to work on the novel itself, I have a particular epic that has been in my mind for at least 10 years... the likes of which I have only seriously began to put the overview of it down on paper. It is somehwat hard for me to describe the genre I am aiming for... I would like to say High Fantasy because of the vast world that features other races and such as well as a grand overall plot, but it could also be called S&S because the characters (8 of them are central) all face very personal battles within the world... and, yet in still, I could make a strong case of it being Low Fantasy because the themes of the novel are going to get rather dark and tragic at times. Convoluted? Definitely. That is why I am still trying to flesh a lot of things out before I actually work on chapters. Chances are it will become a series of many books.

The theme(s) of the novel will have a strong taste of religion that is sure to make it controversial. This is both intentional (because controversy equals sales and publicity. Harry Potter.) and unintentional (because I have technically been writing this story since I was 12 and the views in it come straight from my heart). 

And I think that is about it.... oh, and I am DYING for someone who can draw some of the crazy character designs that I come up with!


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## Tyrael (Dec 7, 2007)

Cyckness said:


> Aspiring novelist here!... Though unfortunately I have not actually began any novels as of yet. I have written a few fan fictions in the past, but slowly I am beginning to understand what G.R.R Martin meant when he said that fanficcing was bad excercise for those who are seriously aspiring to be writers. Its wasting a lot of my time and effort.
> 
> Though I have never actually began to work on the novel itself, I have a particular epic that has been in my mind for at least 10 years... the likes of which I have only seriously began to put the overview of it down on paper. It is somehwat hard for me to describe the genre I am aiming for... I would like to say High Fantasy because of the vast world that features other races and such as well as a grand overall plot, but it could also be called S&S because the characters (8 of them are central) all face very personal battles within the world... and, yet in still, I could make a strong case of it being Low Fantasy because the themes of the novel are going to get rather dark and tragic at times. Convoluted? Definitely. That is why I am still trying to flesh a lot of things out before I actually work on chapters. Chances are it will become a series of many books.
> 
> ...



Welcome to the fantastically frustrating world of writing, don't get tied up too much in trying to pigeonhole your story-it's fantasy, leave it there.

On fanficcing-never read the quote but I can see where he is coming from. If you want to get better at writing don't just steal context and settings, imagine your own. Then again you do get some rather good fanfic authors (a mnority sadly).

Also be aware that since the plot has been stewing for so long that when you actually come round to writing it may never be as good as, or the same as at any rate, what you see in your head, don't let that dispirit you though.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 9, 2007)

I've realized that without starting from the beginning my 3rd person version lacks real narration. I really need a narrative persona.


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## Raiden (Dec 9, 2007)

Recently I was writing a novel and have discovered that the story would be much more effective if I wrote in the perspective of the main character. Writing in the perspective of the author makes the novel blant.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 9, 2007)

I don't have a main character.


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## Einstein (Dec 9, 2007)

Obsidian said:


> Recently I was writing a novel and have discovered that the story would be much more effective if I wrote in the perspective of the main character. Writing in the perspective of the author makes the novel blant.


I beg to differ, especially as far as my work is concerned. If you've a got a good enough voice, third person doesn't come out as blant at all. I personally don't care for first person however, because of how awfully onesided it is.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 9, 2007)

Obsidian said:


> Recently I was writing a novel and have discovered that the story would be much more effective if I wrote in the perspective of the main character. Writing in the perspective of the author makes the novel blant.



In my series so far, I have two first person stories, and one third. The one in third gives me more freedom about what I can show and the like. Anyone's thoughts are fair game. 

The first person however is more fun to write, its just more intimate. 




sundae said:


> I beg to differ, especially as far as my work is concerned. If you've a got a good enough voice, third person doesn't come out as blant at all. I personally don't care for first person however, because of how awfully onesided it is.



I've never heard it called one sided, its more personal and  gives you more insight into a character. It doesn't have to be the main either. Sherlock Holmes stories are written from Watson's perspective. The Great Gatsby is written from the perspective of Nick Carraway. 

Some things can only be done in First person, they'll only be good that way!


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## Einstein (Dec 9, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I've never heard it called one sided, its more personal and  gives you more insight into a character. It doesn't have to be the main either. Sherlock Holmes stories are written from Watson's perspective. The Great Gatsby is written from the perspective of Nick Carraway.
> 
> Some things can only be done in First person, they'll only be good that way!


Personal=Onesided. You're only getting one view of what happens and why, with no medium. I prefer third person because you get to know how every character is actually feeling, and not some assumption by the person you're writing as.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 9, 2007)

sundae said:


> Personal=Onesided. You're only getting one view of what happens and why, with no medium. I prefer third person because you get to know how every character is actually feeling, and not some assumption by the person you're writing as.



Yeah but third distances the reader from the action and from the thoughts of the character. Plus in first person narration certain voices can be used, certain opinions can be expressed better, and the reader gets to understand the character better. 

I use third when I have several characters to cover, but I like first better.


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## Einstein (Dec 9, 2007)

Well, you know how I write. I still get opinions across in third person. For people who can't, or at least not as easily, I suppose first person would be best for them. I just like getting everything, not just one piece of the story. Like the three blind men and the elephant. I'd rather get all three men's opinions, then just the opinion of one. And with third person, more specifically third person omniescent POV, I can do that.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 9, 2007)

sundae said:


> Well, you know how I write. I still get opinions across in third person. For people who can't, or at least not as easily, I suppose first person would be best for them. I just like getting everything, not just one piece of the story. Like the three blind men and the elephant. I'd rather get all three men's opinions, then just the opinion of one. And with third person, more specifically third person omniescent POV, I can do that.



Well part of my thing is getting a small part because I have a lot of secrets in my narrative. I find it much more convincing if you convince the reader there is no secret by showing them that the POV character knows no secret.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 9, 2007)

My story delves into characters detachment from their environment. If I were to write it accurately in 1st it'd probably be mostly gibberish. Though I could try that too.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 9, 2007)

I took an interest in First Person after reading Fight Club. I've written several little things in it now and three major stories in it (not including rewrites). I can't say I have written anything that would have to be gibberish; but I have done deaths, romance, fights, car chases and other things in first person...some were harder than others.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 9, 2007)

But have you done mindbreaking? That beautiful moment where sanity fails and all sense of reason splits apart.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 9, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> But have you done mindbreaking? That beautiful moment where sanity fails and all sense of reason splits apart.



I have, its just not from the first person perspective. Anytime one of my Vampire characters is really angry, they activate this rage ability that allows them a power boost, but nearly drains them of all energy. They become like animals and have no reason and little thought. 

But I think I were to do the mind break alot, it would lose effect, and I have some emotional stuff coming up later.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 9, 2007)

I'm not simply talking about rage. I'm talking about the death of a personality. Where the mind collapses in on itself and the subject becomes almost a new person.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 9, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm not simply talking about rage. I'm talking about the death of a personality. Where the mind collapses in on itself and the subject becomes almost a new person.



The rage is to the point that there is no personality, just instinct. But other than that, no I don't think I will have anything of that type.


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## Tyrael (Dec 9, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> But have you done mindbreaking? That beautiful moment where sanity fails and all sense of reason splits apart.



We're not talking evangelion here are we?

Also on the viewpoint-what I'm writing would be impossible to write in first person, when writing the only thing I can tell is the real difference is that 1st person is easier.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 9, 2007)

Just a little bit.


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## Tyrael (Dec 9, 2007)

Lol, mindbreaking is a rather gentle way of putting it, I prefer the term mindfuck.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 9, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> We're not talking evangelion here are we?
> 
> Also on the viewpoint-what I'm writing would be impossible to write in first person, when writing the only thing I can tell is the real difference is that 1st person is easier.



I don't plan for things to get that extreme, poor Asuka  

But I would like there to be moments of intense pressure and stress.


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## Tyrael (Dec 9, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I don't plan for things to get that extreme, poor Asuka
> 
> But I would like there to be moments of intense pressure and stress.



Poor everyone you mean.

I guess it depends on the context, if your writing a light hearted period drama then mindfuck may not be appropriate, if your writing a Elfen Lied-esque myriad of extreme psychological violence then it probably is. Then again there are probably some examples in between I've ignored. Oh well.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 9, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> We're not talking evangelion here are we?
> 
> Also on the viewpoint-what I'm writing would be impossible to write in first person, when writing the only thing I can tell is the real difference is that 1st person is easier.





Tyrael said:


> Poor everyone you mean.
> 
> I guess it depends on the context, if your writing a light hearted period drama then mindfuck may not be appropriate, if your writing a Elfen Lied-esque myriad of extreme psychological violence then it probably is. Then again there are probably some examples in between I've ignored. Oh well.



Well my story might fall somewhere inbetween, there is a lot of really bad stuff happening and a lot of serious things that go down. I am trying to keep it from getting too dark because I really don't want the darkness to be the focus of the story. I feel kind of bad when I read something and it seems like the story is just trying to be edgy for the sake of edgy. I hate that. 

I need things to seem sincere and make it seem like there is some kind of lesson about the human condition at the end of the whole deal.


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## Tyrael (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah, edgy for the sake of edgy often causes any darkness to lose potency and almost, in extreme cases, degenerate into hyperbole. Not a good thing when you set out to shock people and end up making them laugh.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 10, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Yeah, edgy for the sake of edgy often causes any darkness to lose potency and almost, in extreme cases, degenerate into hyperbole. Not a good thing when you set out to shock people and end up making them laugh.



To me edgy for the sake of edgy just makes thing seem fake and silly.


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## Parallax (Dec 11, 2007)

Im writing outlines and drafts for a crime story.  I don't know how long it will be, but I have the ending all planned out already.


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## Furious George (Dec 11, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Welcome to the fantastically frustrating world of writing, don't get tied up too much in trying to pigeonhole your story-it's fantasy, leave it there.
> 
> On fanficcing-never read the quote but I can see where he is coming from. If you want to get better at writing don't just steal context and settings, imagine your own. Then again you do get some rather good fanfic authors (a mnority sadly).
> 
> Also be aware that since the plot has been stewing for so long that when you actually come round to writing it may never be as good as, or the same as at any rate, what you see in your head, don't let that dispirit you though.




LOL. Yeah, I know... habit of mine to try to put everything in definitive order. 

Not only can fan-ficcing rob a writer of his creative abilitites by forcing their plots into pre-set context and settings, but (IMO): 

*It puts us in an unhealthy feedback-environment:* Like you said there ARE good fanfic writers out there... but verry little. I think this is in part because the fanfic fandom community at large is willing to accept and praise writing that sucks. Not only does this make bad writers confident in skills that they don't have but it makes those few good writers complacent because, according to the feedback they got, their work was "OMG Amazing"! The people who read fanfics are generally not writers themselves, little own dependable critics. They are just fans.. and as long as you are making their favorite characters do things the way they deem it should be done, the positive reviews shall roll in. 

*Added Stress of keeping things "in-character" with very little pay-off:* Writing a GOOD fanfiction can, in some ways, be more difficult then coming up with a completely original story. Because you are working with characters that have pre-defined personalities and dispositions, its almost like writing a nonfiction piece... which IMO is much more difficult then writing fiction. The major difference between a fanfic and nonfiction is that the fans in question all have varying opinions on how one character would react to such and such a situation when you are exploring "grey areas" in the copy-righted works' plot (ex: Link and Zelda in a romance scenario). Personal perspective comes into play and often times you'll have one person saying that you nailed the character completely and another saying that they have never seen them more OOC. 

And when it is all set and done... the pay-off for having your imagination strained and your creative juices drained is little-to-nothing. Your fanfic usually will never go beyond the bounds of internet fame. AT LEAST when it comes to novels and other literature pieces there is a possibility of recognition on a much grander scale as well as financial gain.... considering all these things its hard not to agree with G.R.R Martin's call on fan-ficcing. 

And thanks for the warning about plots stewing for so long! But it should be noted that the plot I have in mind is not exactly what is was 10 years ago. What I had in mind, at age 12, was to make a bunch of knights and demons with DBZ powers! Over the years a lot of depth has been thrown into the fray. The plot aged and matured even as I aged and matured.  



> To me edgy for the sake of edgy just makes thing seem fake and silly.



Amen. I believe ppl can feel out motivations behind the writings of others. Authenticity will always be praised... Emo for the sake of emo (or anything for the sheer sake of... anything for that matter) is almost unbearbable to read.


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## less (Dec 11, 2007)

Cyckness said:


> The people who read fanfics are generally not writers themselves, little own dependable critics.


Having learned English as a second language, typical errors made by native speakers seem so hilariously alien.

I screw up the occasional tense while native speakers write "would of" or  

I agree wholeheartedly with your post, by the way, especially with the first point you bring up. The kind of praise you get in the fanfic community can be a good boost when you're a 14-year old with shitty self-esteem, but if you want to become a decent writer you need a heartless editor, or, lacking that, harsh, unforgiving critics who stick to actual points when laying into that crappy piece of drivel you just poured your soul into. It's not very comfortable either way, but you gotta push for the burn, and all that. No one is any good from the get-go except purely on accident.


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## Furious George (Dec 11, 2007)

less said:


> Having learned English as a second language, typical errors made by native speakers seem so hilariously alien.
> 
> I screw up the occasional tense while native speakers write "would of" or



Wow... I'm an idiot.  

The funny thing was I always felt weird when writing out that phrase ('let alone'), and now I know why.


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## Tyrael (Dec 11, 2007)

I feel praise is being underestimated here-okay brutality is needed but a feedback from casual readers saying they enjoyed what you wrote is not something to be sneered at. I write books, not so I can look to boastof sophistication at its limits. I very much agree that criticisms are vital for a writer to really be a writer, but still if people enjoy what I write, then personally, I am happy.


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## Furious George (Dec 11, 2007)

Can't speak for Less but I'm not sneering at praise feedback at all, nor am I glorifying brutal critique.... but the latter is often very sobering and the former is like liquor to the ego. You can take a little of it if you need a little pick-me-up, but if you take in too much your head starts spinning. Honestly, it is hard NOT to get praise on sites like fanfiction.net... which is scary because most of what you find there (esp. in the Naruto section) is bad. Very bad. 

Of course, I don't believe that you necessarily need a dickhead to bomb your work in order for you to grow as a writer... but I'd always prefer it over empty praise from ppl who mean well but ultimately cannot help you. "Faithful is the rebuke of a wise man".


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## Tyrael (Dec 11, 2007)

Cyckness said:


> Can't speak for Less but I'm not sneering at praise feedback at all, nor am I glorifying brutal critique.... but the latter is often very sobering and the former is like liquor to the ego. You can take a little of it if you need a little pick-me-up, but if you take in too much your head starts spinning. Honestly, it is hard NOT to get praise on sites like fanfiction.net... which is scary because most of what you find there (esp. in the Naruto section) is bad. Very bad.
> 
> Of course, I don't believe that you necessarily need a dickhead to bomb your work in order for you to grow as a writer... but I'd always prefer it over empty praise from ppl who mean well but ultimately cannot help you. "Faithful is the rebuke of a wise man".



It seems my rant came over a bit stronger I meant it to, I wasn't implying that you were sneering as such over positive feedback, just being somewhat dismissive. Maybe I'm just defensive because I've been recieving scary amounts of positive feedback on what I'm writing currently and I am hoping that this actually means it's at a level I want it to be.

As we well no though, there no real definitive answers.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 11, 2007)

Cyckness said:


> LOL. Yeah, I know... habit of mine to try to put everything in definitive order.
> 
> Not only can fan-ficcing rob a writer of his creative abilitites by forcing their plots into pre-set context and settings, but (IMO):
> 
> ...



As a product of the fan fic community myself I can say that there was a time when it held more sway as a literary thing and not as just a way to see two characters have sex and use gross words. That having been said, the fall of the fan fic community started with fan fic.net. The place was a great idea, but it quickly did to fan fiction what myspace does to the rest of the internet. 

It popularized it and made the general user go from smart and good writers, to what you see now. The fact of the matter is that fan fiction started with small sites, this one site brought them together, but it drew more people in from outside who were no writers. Well when ff.net got full of bad writers and they made all these rules about content and stuff, people broke away and went back to the smaller sites.

Now the small sites are infested with bad writers too. 



less said:


> I agree wholeheartedly with your post, by the way, especially with the first point you bring up. The kind of praise you get in the fanfic community can be a good boost when you're a 14-year old with shitty self-esteem, but if you want to become a decent writer you need a heartless editor, or, lacking that, harsh, unforgiving critics who stick to actual points when laying into that crappy piece of drivel you just poured your soul into. It's not very comfortable either way, but you gotta push for the burn, and all that. No one is any good from the get-go except purely on accident.



I can't knock Fan fiction too much, I know some good writers out there. The big problem with it is is that like anything else there are few who are good at it and a lot of people who aren't.



Tyrael said:


> I feel praise is being underestimated here-okay brutality is needed but a feedback from casual readers saying they enjoyed what you wrote is not something to be sneered at. I write books, not so I can look to boastof sophistication at its limits. I very much agree that criticisms are vital for a writer to really be a writer, but still if people enjoy what I write, then personally, I am happy.



Praise is a funny thing, I never really got too much praise for my fan fiction back when I wrote it, but when I did I didn't feel like the person was intelligent sometimes so I would disregard it. 



Cyckness said:


> Can't speak for Less but I'm not sneering at praise feedback at all, nor am I glorifying brutal critique.... but the latter is often very sobering and the former is like liquor to the ego. You can take a little of it if you need a little pick-me-up, but if you take in too much your head starts spinning. Honestly, it is hard NOT to get praise on sites like fanfiction.net... which is scary because most of what you find there (esp. in the Naruto section) is bad. Very bad.
> 
> Of course, I don't believe that you necessarily need a dickhead to bomb your work in order for you to grow as a writer... but I'd always prefer it over empty praise from ppl who mean well but ultimately cannot help you. "Faithful is the rebuke of a wise man".



A lot of the time when people bomb your work you can tell how legit it is by how substantial it is. If they are harping on one part and acting like its the end of the world, say its one line but they have nothing to say about the rest. Then I have a hard time believe its as bad as they say.


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## Furious George (Dec 12, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> It seems my rant came over a bit stronger I meant it to, I wasn't implying that you were sneering as such over positive feedback, just being somewhat dismissive. Maybe I'm just defensive because I've been recieving scary amounts of positive feedback on what I'm writing currently and I am hoping that this actually means it's at a level I want it to be.
> 
> As we well no though, there no real definitive answers.




Welll..... I guess it would be a little more accurate to say that I am in fact dismissing praising feedback that offers no criticism or advice at all, esp. if your recieving that sort of thing in bulk. I imagine folks like King and Rowling and Martin receive such praise from their fans by the thousands on an hourly basis, but it is deadly to let those things go to your head when you are just starting as a writer. On FF.Net I have plenty of praise feedback and I *know *that I don't deserve it for what I posted. I am actually so embarassed of the crap that I posted there that I will not be giving out my ff acount name because I don't want the ppl hear to read it.

In the end, my call on fanfictions would be this: it can be fun to play around with characters that you love every once in a while, but let it be just that. Playing around. Do not use it as a literary excercise because I honestly beleive it does us more harm then good (in both the writing process and the feedback process). Also, Do NOT let it hinder your aspirations and endeavors in the more profitable realms of literature (getting short stories and novels published).



> As a product of the fan fic community myself I can say that there was a time when it held more sway as a literary thing and not as just a way to see two characters have sex and use gross words. That having been said, the fall of the fan fic community started with fan fic.net. The place was a great idea, but it quickly did to fan fiction what myspace does to the rest of the internet.
> 
> It popularized it and made the general user go from smart and good writers, to what you see now. The fact of the matter is that fan fiction started with small sites, this one site brought them together, but it drew more people in from outside who were no writers. Well when ff.net got full of bad writers and they made all these rules about content and stuff, people broke away and went back to the smaller sites.
> 
> Now the small sites are infested with bad writers too.



LOL, I see. I stepped into the world of fanfiction only about 2 years ago, so I supposed I missed its Golden Years.



> A lot of the time when people bomb your work you can tell how legit it is by how substantial it is. If they are harping on one part and acting like its the end of the world, say its one line but they have nothing to say about the rest. Then I have a hard time believe its as bad as they say.



I agree completely. Like I said, the rebuke of a *wise* man is very faithful... but some ppl who attempt to offer constructive criticism these days do not really know what they are talking about. Whenever someone gives me feedback on my work and I see that all they are giving me is a whine fest on one thing I put in that they don't agree with, I tend to just write it off. It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth and, more likely then not, they are just looking for something to bitch about because they really have nothing to say.


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## Tyrael (Dec 12, 2007)

Cyckness said:


> Welll..... I guess it would be a little more accurate to say that I am in fact dismissing praising feedback that offers no criticism or advice at all, esp. if your recieving that sort of thing in bulk. I imagine folks like King and Rowling and Martin receive such praise from their fans by the thousands on an hourly basis, but it is deadly to let those things go to your head when you are just starting as a writer. On FF.Net I have plenty of praise feedback and I *know *that I don't deserve it for what I posted. I am actually so embarassed of the crap that I posted there that I will not be giving out my ff acount name because I don't want the ppl hear to read it.
> 
> In the end, my call on fanfictions would be this: it can be fun to play around with characters that you love every once in a while, but let it be just that. Playing around. Do not use it as a literary excercise because I honestly beleive it does us more harm then good (in both the writing process and the feedback process). Also, Do NOT let it hinder your aspirations and endeavors in the more profitable realms of literature (getting short stories and novels published).



Alright then, I completely missed the context of what you were trying to say, only ever having been on ff.net once, and it being my only ever venture into the world of fan fiction. I may write a fan fiction one day though, more out of curiosity than anything else.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 12, 2007)

For the 1000th time I think I have an ending in mind. This time it doesn't seem like a cop out, however it's not as grand as I originally envisioned.


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## Tyrael (Dec 12, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> For the 1000th time I think I have an ending in mind. This time it doesn't seem like a cop out, however it's not as grand as I originally envisioned.



Go for some so breathtakingly cliched and overthetop ending that it sends ur audience reeling into a world sense of imagination and empathetic overload. Originality is good too.

Actually that said as long as ending is final it does its job, too many books have got away with huge overblown endings to compensate for a lackluster story in the first place.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 12, 2007)

It's not the ending itself that isn't grand, it's the path to it. It almost seems too easy.


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## Tyrael (Dec 12, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> It's not the ending itself that isn't grand, it's the path to it. It almost seems too easy.



By path to it do you mean immediate exposition before it or the rest of the book?


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## Lord Yu (Dec 12, 2007)

The rest of the book. The path to it seems too clear.


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## Tyrael (Dec 12, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> The rest of the book. The path to it seems too clear.



Yet again I sense ambiguity. Too clear as in not fraught or eventful enough, or too clear as in its easily predictable?


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## Lord Yu (Dec 12, 2007)

I wouldn't entirely say predictable. Just not as expansive as I planned for. Of course...Hmm I think I may have something leftover to work with. But I don't wanna seem like I'm milking it.


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## Tyrael (Dec 12, 2007)

Simplicity is good, ironic as it is me saying that, if you contrive to extend things further then there is the direct possibility any raw nature that may be good in your writing will disappear. Things run into danger of getting clumsy (as I am finding out) when complexity is involved.

I think Kharn the betrayer puts it the best:

"Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn!"

But i digress, in conclusion: my brain hurts.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 12, 2007)

It hurts to be too in love with your characters.


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## Tyrael (Dec 12, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> It hurts to be too in love with your characters.



You're better off hating a few of them. It tends to lend towards more emotive writing as well I find.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 12, 2007)

Cyckness said:


> Welll..... I guess it would be a little more accurate to say that I am in fact dismissing praising feedback that offers no criticism or advice at all, esp. if your recieving that sort of thing in bulk. I imagine folks like King and Rowling and Martin receive such praise from their fans by the thousands on an hourly basis, but it is deadly to let those things go to your head when you are just starting as a writer. On FF.Net I have plenty of praise feedback and I *know *that I don't deserve it for what I posted. I am actually so embarassed of the crap that I posted there that I will not be giving out my ff acount name because I don't want the ppl hear to read it.
> 
> In the end, my call on fanfictions would be this: it can be fun to play around with characters that you love every once in a while, but let it be just that. Playing around. Do not use it as a literary excercise because I honestly beleive it does us more harm then good (in both the writing process and the feedback process). Also, Do NOT let it hinder your aspirations and endeavors in the more profitable realms of literature (getting short stories and novels published).
> 
> ...



I would have to disagree, I mean that it can hurt your writing if you use it as a way to be lazy, but many writers have written books that could be considered fan fiction and sell well. 

In all honesty fan fiction is less appealing to some and more so to others. It doesn't appeal to me for the most part because I like my characters  a lot and need some freedom.


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## Furious George (Dec 13, 2007)

^^^ 

Ah, and so I have heard... but still, it is much rarer and much harder to get fanfiction-esque work published then it is an orginal novel/short story, which is extremely hard in itself. And is it really even worth the effort? IMO it isn't, but I suppose it all does come down to opinions in the end. 

*Question: Besides the more obvious answers (strong sexual content, strong cussing), what kind of content do you folks think would push a novel beyond the "Young Adult" range?* 

I ask because I am shooting for a young adult target audience rather then adult, but fear that I might be pushing it. I plan for the book to contain a fair amount of blood from epic battles scenes and perhaps a mildy-graphic scene of a woman giving birth. My description of it would be more focused on the pain of child-bearing then the biological stuff with the blood and the cord and the "O, I can the head!". Still, I'll probably throw in some colorful language about the various... liquids that gush forth from it (the woman is not human. LOL) but since that's all fantasy violence I don't think it will come off too grotesque... What do you guys think? A bit too much?


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## Tyrael (Dec 13, 2007)

Cyckness said:


> ^^^
> 
> Ah, and so I have heard... but still, it is much rarer and much harder to get fanfiction-esque work published then it is an orginal novel/short story, which is extremely hard in itself. And is it really even worth the effort? IMO it isn't, but I suppose it all does come down to opinions in the end.
> 
> ...



Often what makes the a book for adults beyond sex and violence, I find, is the exploration of themes and complexity. Giving birth, if you're looking at a young to early teenage then you might be fine, but tread carefully. Your writing style will heavily dictate this as well.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 13, 2007)

Cyckness said:


> ^^^
> 
> Ah, and so I have heard... but still, it is much rarer and much harder to get fanfiction-esque work published then it is an orginal novel/short story, which is extremely hard in itself. And is it really even worth the effort? IMO it isn't, but I suppose it all does come down to opinions in the end.
> 
> ...


Actual birth giving tends not to be  mild.

I don't really know too much about audience. My story is filled with graphic violence and sex. Of course, it's not for the sake of being gratuitous(OK maybe fore some of the violence) but for me not holding back. I'm still not sure if I want to get published; so I'm going all out.


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## AxelTheSot (Dec 13, 2007)

I'm just beginning work on what I would hope to be a set of (or maybe even a series) of fantasy novels.

I'm really intrigued by both fantasy and post apocalyptic, so the story is going to be an even share of those things.  

The story I have planned to be set a number of years after the actual apocalypse, which itself will be a big twist on the story, as the apocalypse will not be by your usual Nuclear war.

A main theme I'm shooting for, if I even try and press one, will be the struggle between Technology and Nature.


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## Fran (Dec 13, 2007)

SciFi Comedy writer studying English and Creative Writing at university here ^.^/


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 14, 2007)

Cyckness said:


> ^^^
> 
> Ah, and so I have heard... but still, it is much rarer and much harder to get fanfiction-esque work published then it is an orginal novel/short story, which is extremely hard in itself. And is it really even worth the effort? IMO it isn't, but I suppose it all does come down to opinions in the end.
> 
> ...



I have pretty much shot my young adult rating because I think some of my themes hit more of an older audience. But the thing I think you are going to want to look out for is the amount of description put into certain aspects of human behavior. 

There's a level of violence and sexuality in most things that even children watch. Realistically speaking its all through out the medium of the arts, the trick is ambiguity of it. For a teen or young adult audience I would say focus a lot on their sort of relationships, how they are with friends and loved ones. At the same time focus on the things that make them think and give them problems. Ever read the Giver by Lois Lowery...really good book. Written in a very serious manner but targeted at Junior Students. Some of the themes in that book are REALLY adult (euthanasia, sexual feelings for a friend (wanting to bathe her), abortion). I mean I read the book in junior high. 

Language and diction are going to dictate what is too much. Of course some of the actual content will as well. Like I would think that the blood and such in the birth scene might be a little much unless described very carefully (which I wouldn't trust with myself actually).



AxelTheSot said:


> I'm just beginning work on what I would hope to be a set of (or maybe even a series) of fantasy novels.
> 
> I'm really intrigued by both fantasy and post apocalyptic, so the story is going to be an even share of those things.
> 
> ...



Ah, post apocalyptic! Now you're speaking my language. In my story we actually work up from the not to distant future to the Apocalypse, its a series too and the Apocalypse itself is very Biblical and not really at all about the usually Human caused ends of the world. The story also shows a war between Heaven and Hell.


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## Dream Brother (Dec 14, 2007)

Mattaru said:


> SciFi Comedy writer studying English and Creative Writing at university here ^.^/



Neat, what do you think of the classes?


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## Tyrael (Dec 14, 2007)

Mattaru said:


> SciFi Comedy writer studying English and Creative Writing at university here ^.^/



Nice stuff, so ur already ahead of the game. I never got in2 the creative writing/journalism course i applied for because of generally low marks. Sci-fi comedy? In an ott farcicle way or subtle witty way?

Also on the apolaclyptic subject-don't almost all fantasy novels hinge around the end of the world in some form another? Though I like the nature vs technology slant, only fantasy book I've read with that in it was the Geomancer by Ian Irvine, was alright, nothing special though.


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## Fran (Dec 14, 2007)

Tehehehe ^^! I'm more into subtle wit....Along the lines of Pratchett/Adams.
Classes aren't what I thought they would be.
I'm attending Royal Holloway University of London and taking my course there.
CW1010 - Why Write? is a decent course; this is where you study techniques and style in writing. We've had to rewrite scenes, compose a 'Meeting Someone New' Scene [which was joygasmically pleasing - I did a humurous milf meets jock encounter] and and all sorts of creative tasls.
CW1020 Creative Writing History/Theory on the other hand is so-so. Plato, Nietzche, Edmund Burke, SHelley, Arnold... studying Futurism/Dadaism, Birth of Tragedy, Culture and Anarchy, A philosophical Enquiry, Republic and the list goes on...Meh. It's not boring, but it's not fascinating.

This is my first year at university. What about you guys?
Nice to meet you all, by the way


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## Dream Brother (Dec 14, 2007)

Mattaru said:


> Tehehehe ^^! I'm more into subtle wit....Along the lines of Pratchett/Adams.
> Classes aren't what I thought they would be.
> I'm attending Royal Holloway University of London and taking my course there.
> CW1010 - Why Write? is a decent course; this is where you study techniques and style in writing. We've had to rewrite scenes, compose a 'Meeting Someone New' Scene [which was joygasmically pleasing - I did a humurous milf meets jock encounter] and and all sorts of creative tasls.
> ...



Sweet. I was going to go to Royal Holloway, but I didn't really want to move to Egham, and so I ended up going to a London uni instead. The course you're doing is the exact course that I would have ended up doing too, haha. As for me, I'm in my second year. Oh, and Nietzsche and Shelley rock.


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## Blayze (Dec 14, 2007)

Hello. Don't think I've posted in this topic before. Yet another aspiring novelist- I mean author- I mean writer here. Then again, I suppose I can technically call myself a fantasy novelist at this point, since I'm published. Sadly, it's with Lulu, a website not known for such things as quality control, given that their system is all but automated. At the moment, I'm working on one of the sequels to it.

(I keep bouncing between projects set in the same world. It gets confusing after a while, especially when they're set years, decades, sometimes even centuries apart.)


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 15, 2007)

A little something I wrote because of a song, it has some of the song in it and its really short...


*Spoiler*: __ 



Last night things seemed to happen in so much of a slow motion. Usually she turned down the invitation to go to a party, I?m not sure what made things different this time but I doubt it matters. The whole thing was going down at a friend?s house on a cold autumn night.

I was frustrated when I met her there, I wasn?t sure what to expect from her. Things had been going down hill for a long time, the fall that never ends. Why was it so hard for us now? We?d been best friends for years and when we started to date for a while things suddenly took this turn.

She was dressed in a thin black dress with white polka dots, there was a little tie up ribbon around the waist. Her hair was down, as it always was. She had this thing about ponytails, she was just against them for some reason.

Her face was stretched to a forced smile, her front teeth showing, they were bigger than they should have been and it just gave her this cute sincere look. I should have known better than to take that as the truth, though.

The music was loud and I could barely hear it as she yells to me, ?Glad you could make it Perry,? her green eyes shine up at me. Something in her voice made me nervous, even before the party was off in full swing I wanted to be out of the crowded house, I wanted to be home alone studying for the test next week. This party became a prison, the people barring me in. I?d climb the walls for oxygen.

?Thanks for calling me up,? I lean in to give her a kiss instinctively, she pulls back at first as if its instinct and but the mark still lands square on her cheek. As she nervously brushes the maroon hair down from her face she starts to bounce with the music. Now I yell to her, ?You look so beautiful in that dress, just perfect tonight.?

A half hearted smile spreads across her lips, her lightly tanned face catches the dim light in a way that shows that one dimple she has that?s deeper than the other. ?Why don?t we just dance??

I take her hand and she leads me out to the dance floor, I?m looking her up and down and somehow I know what?s coming. I push the thought back and I bury it under everything I can inside of my head. Thoughts of school, the idea that I really can?t dance; anything at all to push those fucking feelings of regret down. Is it that I?m coming on too strong?

I?ll wait, but I?m too tired to play pretend, I?m too tired to climb this wall or claw for the air at the top of this tank anymore. I?ll suffocate until the end. We start to dance, as innocently as we can. More innocent than we would have danced as just friends. Best friends turned lovers?better off where they started. 

I attempt to get closer to her, my fingers run down through her hair. Her expression changes now, her eyes flinch nervously. She looks up and down my body. Her mouth is open only part of the way. She?s working up something inside, and I want anything to take those words away at this point.

With a little step I go to kiss the side of her neck, she tilts her head up and as my lips meet her warm skin she places one hand on my waist. She whispers something in my ear, but the message is unclear. She steps back and motions outside. I trail her closely from behind as she tries hard not to cry. She shakes underneath the newly fallen pouring rain.

My voice is barely audible, ?Ashley?? I go to touch her shoulder. 
?I can?t compete with all your damn ideas,? her first words bite into my core, ?This isn?t working out for you and me; and the truth is I?m too tired to play pretend. This is goodbye, this is the end.?


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## Tyrael (Dec 15, 2007)

Let's see how many different post I can reply to:

Yay Pratchett humour is the best, I'm doing psychology and sociology at napier, 'cause I'm not good enough to do any writing related degree.

I'm unsure how the Lulu thing works, it does not seem something that you can do without a lot of luck or geing very clever, what was your motivation for getting published that way?

Brilliant piece of writing CTK-I really liked it, seemed surreal enough to depart the mood of the evening, but I thought that piece of writing was in third person?


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## Fran (Dec 15, 2007)

> Sweet. I was going to go to Royal Holloway, but I didn't really want to move to Egham, and so I ended up going to a London uni instead. The course you're doing is the exact course that I would have ended up doing too, haha. As for me, I'm in my second year. Oh, and Nietzsche and Shelley rock.



Haha awesome! I never thought I'd bump into another English fanatic on this forum, let alone on this thread, let alone one that was aiming for the same uni AND course as me!

Where do you study then? Kings College? Doing English?
Shelley is o-kay, and Nietzche takes a lot of thinking to get round. I loved the Birth of Tragedy though...Even if he moves away from all his ideas later on in his life.


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## Furious George (Dec 15, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Often what makes the a book for adults beyond sex and violence, I find, is the exploration of themes and complexity. Giving birth, if you're looking at a young to early teenage then you might be fine, but tread carefully. Your writing style will heavily dictate this as well.




Undertstood. 



Lord Yu said:


> Actual birth giving tends not to be  mild.
> 
> I don't really know too much about audience. My story is filled with graphic violence and sex. Of course, it's not for the sake of being gratuitous(OK maybe fore some of the violence) but for me not holding back. I'm still not sure if I want to get published; so I'm going all out.



LOL. Well... I will try to make it as mild as a woman screaming and languishing in pain can be. 

QUOTE=Cardboard Tube Knight;12471309]I have pretty much shot my young adult rating because I think some of my themes hit more of an older audience. But the thing I think you are going to want to look out for is the amount of description put into certain aspects of human behavior. 

There's a level of violence and sexuality in most things that even children watch. Realistically speaking its all through out the medium of the arts, the trick is ambiguity of it. For a teen or young adult audience I would say focus a lot on their sort of relationships, how they are with friends and loved ones. At the same time focus on the things that make them think and give them problems. Ever read the Giver by Lois Lowery...really good book. Written in a very serious manner but targeted at Junior Students. Some of the themes in that book are REALLY adult (euthanasia, sexual feelings for a friend (wanting to bathe her), abortion). I mean I read the book in junior high. 

Language and diction are going to dictate what is too much. Of course some of the actual content will as well. Like I would think that the blood and such in the birth scene might be a little much unless described very carefully (which I wouldn't trust with myself actually).





> Pretty much what Tyrael said. Gotta be creful with the language and dealing out complex themes. I pretty much figured that, but this confrims it. Got it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Blayze (Dec 15, 2007)

> I'm unsure how the Lulu thing works, it does not seem something that you can do without a lot of luck or geing very clever, what was your motivation for getting published that way?



Basically, you create a project for your work, then you create covers and upload your file and they publish it as a book (Print on demand). I think I heard it referred to as a 'vanity press', and for me it was pretty much a way of saying 'I've got a published book.', in order to get that desire out of my system.

Of course, seeing it flounder as it did meant that I ended up with the desire to have a *popular* published book.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 15, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Brilliant piece of writing CTK-I really liked it, seemed surreal enough to depart the mood of the evening, but I thought that piece of writing was in third person?



I think I am misunderstanding, did you mean you thought that one was supposed to be in third or the story itself. I have several different stories in the same series, this is just a short, its not really part of another story, its just a stand alone little thing I wrote with two of the characters from my story. 



Cyckness said:


> Biblical, eh? Now you're speaking MY language! I would like to hear more about it if you are willing to discuss plots and stuff (which I usually am not willing to do).



I'd love to discuss more about it, I have pretty much everything fleshed out and there are a lot of the little Biblical things popping up right around where I am. I love the universe I have created for these stories and even if I decide not to write about these characters anymore, I will probably continue to write in this universe. 

What did you want to know about the story?


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## AxelTheSot (Dec 15, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Nice stuff, so ur already ahead of the game. I never got in2 the creative writing/journalism course i applied for because of generally low marks. Sci-fi comedy? In an ott farcicle way or subtle witty way?
> 
> Also on the apolaclyptic subject-don't almost all fantasy novels hinge around the end of the world in some form another? Though I like the nature vs technology slant, only fantasy book I've read with that in it was the Geomancer by Ian Irvine, was alright, nothing special though.



Well, in a sense, yes.  Usually, the heroes have to save the world, less an "apocalypse" happens.

The angle my book takes, is that the history of the world is the world we are living in right now.

All our current history is part of the history of my world, in a sense.

For my story we have to assume that all the tales of magic and mythical creatures we've heard about aren't so mythical.  This would give room for "mana" to have existed in our reality at some point.  With the advent of Christianity, mana was forced out of the world by people believing in something higher than the nature and it's force, mana.

The apocalypse in my book, is actually what turns the story into fantasy.  The apocalypse is actually the forceful return of mana in to the world.  Actual, tangible mana will basically force it self up out of the earth and destroy most of what we have built in our world.  It will also take the lives of many, like most apocalypses happen to do.

After the inital return of mana, the landscape is born anew with lush forests, frozen tundras, vast deserts, etc.  The difference being, there are no signs of roads, cities, or civilization in general.  

Now, the story is set 500 years after this occurrence.  By this time, people that survived the apocalypse, in one way or another, have uncovered technology from underground areas, from debris of planes that had crashed, etc.

Generally, technology is extremely rare.  Most of what was initially recovered was used to make structures and tools after the apocalypse.  Now, they are considered rare artifacts.

The populace generally sticks to small communities though I plan on there being at least two big factions of people (there will always be those groups of people who vie for power, after all).  There are of course lots of loners as well.

As far as the state of the mana now, it will be stable.  Though, it is just as available in the air as is oxygen.  Thus, some people have learned to control the mana.  I haven't totally fleshed out my ideas for how spells will work, but it will definitely be based on runes.  "Mages" will have to carry with them some way of writing, many will probably use parchment and ink, though I think I might personalize some characters with quirks such as a notebook and a pen (for a woman I've been thinking about).  The power of the mage will directly relate to his skill in handwriting, the speed at which he can write, and how much ink/paper he has left.

As far as weaponry, guns and bladed weaponry are equally popular.  Though automatic weapons are rare.  Most weaponry is made by the current population, as a lot of the old weaponry hasn't been found.

Just give an idea where I'm coming from, I'm heavily influenced by Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind and numerous fantasy novels.

These are just some general ideas that I've had, that will definitely all be thought about more and given a lot more detail.

But this would be a good summary of the basic setting.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 15, 2007)

Mattaru said:


> Tehehehe ^^! I'm more into subtle wit....Along the lines of Pratchett/Adams.
> Classes aren't what I thought they would be.
> I'm attending Royal Holloway University of London and taking my course there.
> CW1010 - Why Write? is a decent course; this is where you study techniques and style in writing. We've had to rewrite scenes, compose a 'Meeting Someone New' Scene [which was joygasmically pleasing - I did a humurous milf meets jock encounter] and and all sorts of creative tasls.
> ...



I wish they offered classes like that around here...I need to find some place that does. 

Oh an like I said before, my Apocolypse is actually more spiritual in a world much like our own, few know about Vampires, Angels, Demons and the like, but these things are constantly around us. 

In my story we have to assume that there was a war in Heaven when Lucifer was cast down. Well alone with Lucifer were five other powerful Angels who were placed in seals around the world.  One of them was released from his seal and had two children, however he was promptly resealed. 

Now thousands of years later he is unsealed and trying to unseal the others and wage War on both Heaven and Hell (and Earth) to be ruler of them all. The idea might sound stupid because of God and what he can do, but God will not interject directly because of the Free Will factor, so this demon is more about turning everyone away from both God and Satan to make them follow him.


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## Tyrael (Dec 15, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I think I am misunderstanding, did you mean you thought that one was supposed to be in third or the story itself. I have several different stories in the same series, this is just a short, its not really part of another story, its just a stand alone little thing I wrote with two of the characters from my story.



Nope the misunderstanding was purely mine. I thought it was part of your other story u posted parts of ages ago.




AxelTheSot said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, I'll put that in spoilers to save room. I like your story, actually one I.m writing has some similar concpets, in mine there was an explosion that destroyed a city (call that my apocalypse) which turns out to be cataclysmic. Also "Cenate Energy" was a cause of that and it is actually some seriously twisted off-spring from my vague understanding of the string theory. Hell it's sci fi I reckon I can get away with shit like that. Oh yeah and in my book guns are banned, although inevitably there will still be a few floating around.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 15, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Nope the misunderstanding was purely mine. I thought it was part of your other story u posted parts of ages ago.



Well its perfectly fine, I was just making sure I had things right. It is part of the same series, the characters are the same. I actually am trying to think of how all of these little one and two page things can fit in with continuity of my story. 

Those two characters, in the story you commented on last are the children of my character and my best friends character, of course my characters wife is based on another friend of mine. There are so many characters now I am trying to use only four or five per story really.


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## Tyrael (Dec 15, 2007)

See now I'm really confused.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well its perfectly fine, I was just making sure I had things right. It is part of the same series, the characters are the same. I actually am trying to think of how all of these little one and two page things can fit in with continuity of my story.



After here i run into problems:



> Those two characters, in the story you commented on last are the children of my character,



You mean protagonist?



> and my best friends character, of course my characters wife is based on another friend of mine.



So the two main characters have had children, now the youngest children are having a relationship? Didn't you say earlier it was the same characters? The wife of your protagonist is based on a real life person?



> There are so many characters now I am trying to use only four or five per story really.




You mean in each short story or each stage in the series?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 15, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> You mean protagonist?



Perry and Ashley, from the story I posted on the last page are the children of some of my main characters. 



Tyrael said:


> So the two main characters have had children, now the youngest children are having a relationship? Didn't you say earlier it was the same characters? The wife of your protagonist is based on a real life person?



This is going to be hard to explain even for me, the character based on me, who is named Justin, like I am. I will change the names later. But anyway, Justin is married to Persephanie, who is one of my best friends in real life. Now my other best friend Prentiss, is in the story, and he is married to a girl in the story named Pellegri. 

Justin and Persephanie have a daughter named Ashley. Prentiss and Pellegri have a son named Perry. Perry was the narrator of that last short piece I posted on the other page. Ashley was the girl. Did that help? 



Tyrael said:


> You mean in each short story or each stage in the series?



I mean each story, of course the most recent big story has about ten characters running around and I am trying to keep things in control. Some big stuff is coming up, but I guess in a way you're right some characters won't be around the whole series.


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## Furious George (Dec 15, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I'd love to discuss more about it, I have pretty much everything fleshed out and there are a lot of the little Biblical things popping up right around where I am. I love the universe I have created for these stories and even if I decide not to write about these characters anymore, I will probably continue to write in this universe.
> 
> What did you want to know about the story?



Well, you gave me a big chunk of info about it already in a previous post that mentioned the 5 powerful angels of Lucifer.... yeah. Not much left to ask anymore. Sounds interesting. Sorta reminds me of Constantine.

I, for the most part, am going the same route as you with the evil angel thing. Only God and Satan do not appear in their full, scriptural glory. I mean it is still them in their esscence (The creature rebelling against the Creator), but just in a completely different world... think Illuvatar and Melkor from The Silmarillion if you have ever read it. 

Hmmm, I suppose I can still ask about the characters! Who is the central character in your plot?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 15, 2007)

Cyckness said:


> Well, you gave me a big chunk of info about it already in a previous post that mentioned the 5 powerful angels of Lucifer.... yeah. Not much left to ask anymore. Sounds interesting. Sorta reminds me of Constantine.
> 
> I, for the most part, am going the same route as you with the evil angel thing. Only God and Satan do not appear in their full, scriptural glory. I mean it is still them in their esscence (The creature rebelling against the Creator), but just in a completely different world... think Illuvatar and Melkor from The Silmarillion if you have ever read it.
> 
> Hmmm, I suppose I can still ask about the characters! Who is the central character in your plot?



There really isn't a central character, like if I were to just name people off I would take up so much space. There's a group of FBI Agents who know about the demons and fight them on a regular basis. There's Stroud, Persephanie, Justin, Kathleen, Prentiss, Kaitlyn, Melissa, Dena, Tiffany...see those are just the main ones I could think of off the top of my head. 

Stroud is married to Kathleen, they have a daughter named December. Justin and Persephanie are married, they have two daughters Ashley and Penny. Prentiss is married to a woman named Pellegri, they have a twin son and daughter, Perry and Kate and baby boy named Dean. 

December and Ashley hate each other. Perry has a crush on Ashley but is kind of a wimp about it. Ashley has a best friend named Myrissa who. Kate is really not seen that much thus far but will be. Penny is really smart for her age and kind of quiet. 

Persephanie is the liaison to a well organized Council of Vampires that are bent on a peaceful Human/Vampire coexistence. Pellegri is actually a vampire making the kids she had part vampire too. The vampire Council Members introduced are Claudia, Sabrina and Pellegri. They're a strike force used to kill renegade vampires and demons. 

Hm let's see there's the Angel of Death who has them call her Dee for short, she's there guiding them. She's kind of everyone's favorite when they read her and I guess she is pretty neat. There's also a priest named Brandon who battles demons. There's some more minor Angels that have just kind of come up, same with FBI Agents. 

I think I got the gist of most of the good guys. There is also an evil vampire named Voltaire. Man I said so fucking much lol.


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## Tyrael (Dec 16, 2007)

Alrite, I think I get the picture, or a picture at least, so how many books/novellas/short stories you got written? I plan to do a maximum of four, minimum of two in what I'm writing atm, almost halfway through it, gonna be rather short (250-280 pages) also might do a plethora of short stories in between the two novels, if I should feel inclined. In a bit of a dry period though, not done any writing in three days and I have an ambitious, for me anyway, deadline to have the part I'm working on finished by xmas.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 16, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Alrite, I think I get the picture, or a picture at least, so how many books/novellas/short stories you got written? I plan to do a maximum of four, minimum of two in what I'm writing atm, almost halfway through it, gonna be rather short (250-280 pages) also might do a plethora of short stories in between the two novels, if I should feel inclined. In a bit of a dry period though, not done any writing in three days and I have an ambitious, for me anyway, deadline to have the part I'm working on finished by xmas.



We're talking at least Eight from what I can tell, and that's if I don't want to go on with the kids being grown after that because it would be easy to transition into that with the way I am doing it.


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## Tyrael (Dec 18, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> We're talking at least Eight from what I can tell, and that's if I don't want to go on with the kids being grown after that because it would be easy to transition into that with the way I am doing it.



Eight? How many you got finished? I plan to have my thing finished by the end of march, it's weird I've actually got a schedule.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 18, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Eight? How many you got finished? I plan to have my thing finished by the end of march, it's weird I've actually got a schedule.



I actually only have two done, working on the third and close to having it complete. I don't really have a schedule. I took months to write the first, and only three weeks to write the second.


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## Tyrael (Dec 19, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I actually only have two done, working on the third and close to having it complete. I don't really have a schedule. I took months to write the first, and only three weeks to write the second.



Three weeks? How long are these things? I mean, if I work hard and really knuckle down then I'm gonna get this relatively short book (about 100 a4 pages, type 10) finished in 6 months, from its beginning to end. Either I'm really slow, or you're a bit of a machine.


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## Senyth (Dec 19, 2007)

My friend just finished Chapter one in her story. Would you mind reading it? xP


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## Pan-on (Dec 19, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Let's see how many different post I can reply to:
> 
> Yay Pratchett humour is the best, I'm doing psychology and sociology at napier, 'cause I'm not good enough to do any writing related degree.



heh im doing english and scottish lit with sociology at edinburgh uni, dont get to do creative writing till 3rd year though which is a shame, cant wait though.


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## Tyrael (Dec 19, 2007)

Anonx said:


> heh im doing english and scottish lit with sociology at edinburgh uni, dont get to do creative writing till 3rd year though which is a shame, cant wait though.



Lol, I'm a Napier boy. As bad as that is the lack of creative writing is, it is fairly typical of education's approach to creativity, in english highers, I'm sure you found this as well, it was not even covered until the advanced highers and even then...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 19, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Lol, I'm a Napier boy. As bad as that is the lack of creative writing is, it is fairly typical of education's approach to creativity, in english highers, I'm sure you found this as well, it was not even covered until the advanced highers and even then...



Well in schools I think that they are weird with how they teach creative writing, I have seen a lot I don't like about it.



Tyrael said:


> Three weeks? How long are these things? I mean, if I work hard and really knuckle down then I'm gonna get this relatively short book (about 100 a4 pages, type 10) finished in 6 months, from its beginning to end. Either I'm really slow, or you're a bit of a machine.



the one that took three weeks, we're talking 70-80 pages, I can't remember.


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## Pan-on (Dec 19, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Lol, I'm a Napier boy. As bad as that is the lack of creative writing is, it is fairly typical of education's approach to creativity, in english highers, I'm sure you found this as well, it was not even covered until the advanced highers and even then...



yeh creative writing in AH was...well the teacher we had was very nice but it was just kinda a case of "you have a year to write a story...go" and we were never really given much help or interaction or anything theres a creative writing society here which im going to have a look at next term which could be alright and iv been trying to write more recently, starting is the hardest part i would say.


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## Tyrael (Dec 20, 2007)

Anonx said:


> yeh creative writing in AH was...well the teacher we had was very nice but it was just kinda a case of "you have a year to write a story...go" and we were never really given much help or interaction or anything theres a creative writing society here which im going to have a look at next term which could be alright and iv been trying to write more recently, starting is the hardest part i would say.



Sounds about right in talking about AH, but I think starting is the easiest part of writing. It's keeping the damn thing consistently paced and myself motivated that is the problem.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> the one that took three weeks, we're talking 70-80 pages, I can't remember.



I tend to make volume and speed a bigger deal than it needs to be, mainly because I can do neither. Still, I keep trying.


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## Pan-on (Dec 20, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Sounds about right in talking about AH, but I think starting is the easiest part of writing. It's keeping the damn thing consistently paced and myself motivated that is the problem.



well iv not written anything particularly long so i have no real experience but i can see how consistency would be difficuly, i tend to write something then read it then next day and hate it so i spend a lot of time tweaking things. I started carrying a little not book about and just writing in it which is quite useful I find


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 21, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> I tend to make volume and speed a bigger deal than it needs to be, mainly because I can do neither. Still, I keep trying.



I really can't do too well with long stories, the one story I wrote to be over 100 pages really blew.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 21, 2007)

I write long stories with a fast pace. I bet if I expanded to full potential I could have several books.


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## Tyrael (Dec 21, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I really can't do too well with long stories, the one story I wrote to be over 100 pages really blew.



I'm not that great with long stories either, but can't be bothered writing short ones. I think they call it a catch-22 (off topic-thats a great book.)



Lord Yu said:


> I write long stories with a fast pace. I bet if I expanded to full potential I could have several books.



I don't think I could sustain a slow pace, then again, looking at that fantasy thing I posted a while ago, maybe I could. Heck if you want it to be many books, do it, but I feel there are far too many multi-sequel books the fantasy world (especially trilogies).

@anonx- If you are learning how to write, then often ur style will change while writing, mine kinda does, throws everything off a little. And characters, keeping dialogue plot driven+making sure you do not go out of character can be rather nippy.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 21, 2007)

I don't want it to be multiple books. I'm just being weary of making a book too huge.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 21, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I don't want it to be multiple books. I'm just being weary of making a book too huge.



Just remember this...I heard somewhere that Tolkien expected his Lord of the Rings Trilogy to be one book at first...



Tyrael said:


> I'm not that great with long stories either, but can't be bothered writing short ones. I think they call it a catch-22 (off topic-thats a great book.)



Perhaps if there was a enough going on, like just enough of a long plot I could do it. Right now there is so much going on and just tying up the loose ends at the end of the story could take me a while.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 21, 2007)

With my expansions. Who knows where I'll go?


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## Pan-on (Dec 21, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> @anonx- If you are learning how to write, then often ur style will change while writing, mine kinda does, throws everything off a little. And characters, keeping dialogue plot driven+making sure you do not go out of character can be rather nippy.



yeh iv noticed that myself, i actually basically rewrote my AH project story the night before it was due in because i didnt like it, now i dont like what i wrote lol. i just need more practise really


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## Vago (Dec 21, 2007)

Good Luck Guys, I would really love to see any of you published.

OnTopic:

I love to write but I never come up with a decent story or plot, I guess I need to focus more and try harder. (I write in Spanish)


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 22, 2007)

So now I am trying my hand at drawing my characters again, trying to find a model for some of the ones who I haven't drawn well before. I think I want to start with the kids because they're getting a lot more attention now, I really don't have much experience drawing younger characters, or writing them for that matter.


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## Tyrael (Dec 22, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> With my expansions. Who knows where I'll go?



The moon!



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> So now I am trying my hand at drawing my characters again, trying to find a model for some of the ones who I haven't drawn well before. I think I want to start with the kids because they're getting a lot more attention now, I really don't have much experience drawing younger characters, or writing them for that matter.



Wish I could draw, rather I can, but the book might turn somewhat humorous if I were t odescribe stickmen.


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## Tiger (Dec 22, 2007)

Hey CTK, remember that story I wrote for the Garden about 'Death' talking the guy down from the ledge?

I'm currently writing a novel with it as my prologue.

And to stay current with the conversation - it will either be 2 or 3 books long.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 22, 2007)

Yes I remember that one, it caught a lot of attention. I have been improving my Death character although she is the complete opposite end of the spectrum, probably the only thing that the two characters have in common is smoking. 

I've had far too much time to think about stuff recently and I have started making some of the things more complicated, I've flipped some roles, changed some characters up and pushed some to the background while bringing others into the lime light.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 23, 2007)

I'm beginning to think my story has too much dialogue.


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## Tyrael (Dec 23, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yes I remember that one, it caught a lot of attention. I have been improving my Death character although she is the complete opposite end of the spectrum, probably the only thing that the two characters have in common is smoking.
> 
> I've had far too much time to think about stuff recently and I have started making some of the things more complicated, I've flipped some roles, changed some characters up and pushed some to the background while bringing others into the lime light.



The only character I have ever come across that does Death well is in Pratchett's writing. Also make sure a complex story works before launching into it, I reckon what I am writing at the moment is too cmplicated, too much going on, this might end up destroying the very narrative and make the book just silly. Then again it might work.



Lord Yu said:


> I'm beginning to think my story has too much dialogue.



Ditto, mine, at places, is more like a bloody screenplay. I reckon I am going to go back through the whole thing once I'm finished and balance out the bits which are too dialogue heavy a bit.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 23, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> The only character I have ever come across that does Death well is in Pratchett's writing. Also make sure a complex story works before launching into it, I reckon what I am writing at the moment is too cmplicated, too much going on, this might end up destroying the very narrative and make the book just silly. Then again it might work.



I think that I should be fine, the characters and the like work really well for the most part and the few that didn't I either have to scale back, change them, or take them out. 

About Death, I think my problem with the Angel of Death characters most of the time is that they are done too much alike. Rarely do they ever take it in a new direction. I was going to do that, until I thought, why make a character that everyone has seen before?


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## reject28 (Dec 23, 2007)

i've been working on my novel for about a year now...taking my time...occasionally chipping in a paragraph or two...done the prologue and the start of chapter 1...i find my self thinking for almost whole nights about the characters and how i can make the story as interesting and plausible as possible


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## Tyrael (Dec 23, 2007)

reject28 said:


> i've been working on my novel for about a year now...taking my time...occasionally chipping in a paragraph or two...done the prologue and the start of chapter 1...i find my self thinking for almost whole nights about the characters and how i can make the story as interesting and plausible as possible



Ditto-often I'm busy lost in my own creation, when I should be thinking about different things. I have only managed write more than you have because after a couple of years of not getting passed the first chapter and rewriting it 3 times, I am finally getting some stuff that is perhaps worthy of what is in my head.

CTK-Different slant on death eh? So no deeply ominous and foreboding character or mildly comedic strangely human creation?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 23, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Ditto-often I'm busy lost in my own creation, when I should be thinking about different things. I have only managed write more than you have because after a couple of years of not getting passed the first chapter and rewriting it 3 times, I am finally getting some stuff that is perhaps worthy of what is in my head.
> 
> CTK-Different slant on death eh? So no deeply ominous and foreboding character or mildly comedic strangely human creation?



My Angel of Death is actually a female, shes awkwardly flirtatious, but afraid of men really. She's friendly, loves pink, she's obsessed with crosses, there's a lot of little quirks to her that make her a little different, her general demeanor is very odd at times, but she's fun.


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## Tyrael (Dec 23, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> My Angel of Death is actually a female, shes awkwardly flirtatious, but afraid of men really. She's friendly, loves pink, she's obsessed with crosses, there's a lot of little quirks to her that make her a little different, her general demeanor is very odd at times, but she's fun.



I would worry about making death have too much of a personality were I ever to write anything with it in. I don't think you can treat it like you would a human.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 23, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> I would worry about making death have too much of a personality were I ever to write anything with it in. I don't think you can treat it like you would a human.



Well the thing is in my story the Angel's are appointed to positions. She's only been Death for roughly ten years and she's only really a half Angel.


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## Tyrael (Dec 23, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well the thing is in my story the Angel's are appointed to positions. She's only been Death for roughly ten years and she's only really a half Angel.



Ah, so her basic foundation is in humanity anyway?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 23, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Ah, so her basic foundation is in humanity anyway?



Yeah she's still very human. And she's only like 17, so she's barely getting to be grown. She is really awkward though, around men especially. She turns into an embarrassed little girl for the most part.


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## Tyrael (Dec 23, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah she's still very human. And she's only like 17, so she's barely getting to be grown. She is really awkward though, around men especially. She turns into an embarrassed little girl for the most part.



Do you plan on affecting any sort of change to this humanity through an acceptance of the job? Either character development or like what happens in Mort (no idea if you've read Pratchett at all).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 23, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Do you plan on affecting any sort of change to this humanity through an acceptance of the job? Either character development or like what happens in Mort (no idea if you've read Pratchett at all).



I know that Mort is something that he wrote but I am not really fimilair with his work besides just a few titles and the like. She's been doing the job since she was a small girl and is pretty good at it. If it has effected or changed her its only because she is now accustomed to it and its part of her regular life. She really isn't the kind of Death that has to appear at everyone's death to guide them. 

She can if she wants but her job is more the rider of the Pale Horse (whom she named Apples when she was a little girl because that's what he liked to eat) and commander of the Four Horsemen. She is also the keeper of all contracts in Heaven and Hell. There are minor Angels who help to guide souls but she usually doesn't occupy her time with it.


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## Tyrael (Dec 23, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I know that Mort is something that he wrote but I am not really fimilair with his work besides just a few titles and the like. She's been doing the job since she was a small girl and is pretty good at it. If it has effected or changed her its only because she is now accustomed to it and its part of her regular life. She really isn't the kind of Death that has to appear at everyone's death to guide them.
> 
> She can if she wants but her job is more the rider of the Pale Horse (whom she named Apples when she was a little girl because that's what he liked to eat) and commander of the Four Horsemen. She is also the keeper of all contracts in Heaven and Hell. There are minor Angels who help to guide souls but she usually doesn't occupy her time with it.



Taking on the job from a young age? There is a personality mindfield I would be a lot less optimistic than you when dealing with. Then again I do not know how the social circles work, if she is part of a society of sorts, so you are, as always the case when writing a book, the one whom knows best.

Oh and in Mort when this guy, for a part of the book, starts doing Death's job, he starts taking on features that come with the whole, er, metaphor I guess, not just has a slightly more morbid line of work.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 23, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Taking on the job from a young age? There is a personality mindfield I would be a lot less optimistic than you when dealing with. Then again I do not know how the social circles work, if she is part of a society of sorts, so you are, as always the case when writing a book, the one whom knows best.
> 
> Oh and in Mort when this guy, for a part of the book, starts doing Death's job, he starts taking on features that come with the whole, er, metaphor I guess, not just has a slightly more morbid line of work.



The funny thing is she actually dresses in all black and carries the scythe, but those are some of the only things that tell you this is Death. And the Scythe has to be summoned. 

When she was a child most of the time she just fought demons, she didn't do any of the Death type stuff. She's also got pyrokenesis. She optimistic mostly because she has learned how to live with the hand the world has dealt her. Deep down she forces optimism to make sure she's not sad all the time because she would be otherwise.

Edit: yeah I actually have her poke fun at the old Death Stereoytpes some, like the playing Chess thing.


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## Tiger (Dec 24, 2007)

I think the problem is whether your Death is actually doing evil or doing Good.

People die everyday, and that's the balance of life...so if Death is a guide for the souls who have died, then that's not truly a cruel thing. If Death kills maliciously, or adds evil quirks to it - then that's different.

The problem is, 99 times out of 100, if Death were doing something evil and the character of Death wasn't evil - they would be either: turned evil or gone insane by the end of the story.

It's hard to justify a character NOT changing drastically when their job is so mentally demanding. But that could be part of the humor, too. If, say, at some point you mention that the job has a very high turnover rate...and when asked why, have someone shrug and mumble something about the loonie bin. "It's in the fine print." 

But eventually, if shown throughout an entire story, I would have a hard time believing in a 'happy-go-lucky' Death. But if that's really the idea, and it's firm in the writer's mind - as long as the story's strong enough it could work.


For mine, I'm re-writing that short story as my prologue and taking out the part at the end where he calls himself 'Death'. For a couple reasons: 1. People already got the idea, 2. Because he won't be a singular force. He's just going to be a "man" in an order. 

One of the themes of the story will be 'how do we as a group, decide what is wrong or right?' and 'How far can you go to do the right thing before it's wrong again?' So ultimate justice being carried out in the hands of a few...if you kill a murderer...does that make what you did Ok? The question will be asked in a roundabout way, with a choice and revelation. It will ruffle some feathers at the same time with my nonchalant declaration that God is a creation of Man, based out of topical need.

Now I just have to find the free time to sit down and type


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## Einstein (Dec 24, 2007)

I think the reason CTK chose a young, happy-go-lucky, shy-around-guys Death is because you don't see it coming. You see a hooded guy dressed all in black, looking mopey and downtrodden. He tells you he's death, and you're saying "Go figure" in your head. But when you meet this girl in one of his stories and she puts on this happy attitude and fighting skills that would classify her as useless (yeah, I thought that), but you find out later that this chick is actually Death and you say "Who, what the fuck just happened? This girl- this useless, always-smiling, girl? Death?" Which I think was the aim of her creation.

But I'm not CTK, so I can only guess.


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## Tyrael (Dec 24, 2007)

sundae said:


> I think the reason CTK chose a young, happy-go-lucky, shy-around-guys Death is because you don't see it coming. You see a hooded guy dressed all in black, looking mopey and downtrodden. He tells you he's death, and you're saying "Go figure" in your head. But when you meet this girl in one of his stories and she puts on this happy attitude and fighting skills that would classify her as useless (yeah, I thought that), but you find out later that this chick is actually Death and you say "Who, what the fuck just happened? This girl- this useless, always-smiling, girl? Death?" Which I think was the aim of her creation.
> 
> But I'm not CTK, so I can only guess.



Yeah but what me and E-S to a certain extent (i think) were getting at is while it is very ironic and against the grain it does not exactly make for realistic characterisation. Then again it is a fantasy novel and I think CTK spoke a while ago about suspension of reality (immersion i think he called it) so evn if th characterisation is unrealistic it could still work.

Example-were I to make a char who had th roll of death since a child I would make them view humans as numbers who are subject strange whims, as th figure would nvr really deal with anyone for long and never get 2 people as people. But as i said a certain amount of social context comes into it. Or maybe i'm jus over thinking.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 24, 2007)

Eddy-sensei said:


> I think the problem is whether your Death is actually doing evil or doing Good.
> 
> People die everyday, and that's the balance of life...so if Death is a guide for the souls who have died, then that's not truly a cruel thing. If Death kills maliciously, or adds evil quirks to it - then that's different.
> 
> ...



Well she's not completely happy go lucky, she's very easily angered. She's cunning and smart, and underneath of her exterior there is some pain. At the same time, she doesn't actually have to collect souls or even deal with them, she's the Angel of Death spoken about in Revelation more than the retriever of Souls. She can take a soul if she sees fit, like of a wicked person. But they have to have done something really wicked. 

I think that happy go lucky might be a bad description, shes more of a ditz I would say. When you first meet her she talks about her parents, about her life and how lonely she is. She's not happy, she's just kind of silly and ditzy I guess if that makes sense. 



sundae said:


> I think the reason CTK chose a young, happy-go-lucky, shy-around-guys Death is because you don't see it coming. You see a hooded guy dressed all in black, looking mopey and downtrodden. He tells you he's death, and you're saying "Go figure" in your head. But when you meet this girl in one of his stories and she puts on this happy attitude and fighting skills that would classify her as useless (yeah, I thought that), but you find out later that this chick is actually Death and you say "Who, what the fuck just happened? This girl- this useless, always-smiling, girl? Death?" Which I think was the aim of her creation.
> 
> But I'm not CTK, so I can only guess.



Actually, yeah she does present herself as very weak and useless at first. As a matter of a fact I did it really well because all of the readers say they like her, but she seemed pointless until they read the end of the story. And I was meaning for that to happen. It's nice when things come together. She actually gets knocked into some lava and you think she's dead, but she just climbs back out because heat and fire can't hurt her. 

At that point you're like "What the fuck?" and she goes to town on this Dragon. 



Tyrael said:


> Yeah but what me and E-S to a certain extent (i think) were getting at is while it is very ironic and against the grain it does not exactly make for realistic characterisation. Then again it is a fantasy novel and I think CTK spoke a while ago about suspension of reality (immersion i think he called it) so evn if th characterisation is unrealistic it could still work.
> 
> Example-were I to make a char who had th roll of death since a child I would make them view humans as numbers who are subject strange whims, as th figure would nvr really deal with anyone for long and never get 2 people as people. But as i said a certain amount of social context comes into it. Or maybe i'm jus over thinking.



She addresses the job later on and she even mentions her predecessor and how he quit because he fell in love with a woman (that's a reference to a movie a friend of mine made called the Business Man). She talks about how she's never had anyone love her and at the same time if she ever did it might be the thing that makes her stop.

*By the way* here's a picture I had a friend draw of her, I love it!


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## Einstein (Dec 24, 2007)

^ That's it finished? I love it, it's beautiful!


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## Lord Yu (Dec 24, 2007)

lol moe moe.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 24, 2007)

sundae said:


> ^ That's it finished? I love it, it's beautiful!



No no, its not done, she's coloring it by hand, but that's what its going to look like you know minus the color and all. I can't wait to see it. In the mean time another friend drew a picture of the two sisters from the story. Its cute.


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## Pan-on (Dec 25, 2007)

ok i wanted to post some sort of example of my writing but i don't really have anything thats a good example on here so i decided to post something different.

this is something I did to practice writing,it isn't my normal style and it isn't really part of a story although it isn't finished yet either; to be honest I don't really know what it is but there are things about it I like and I thought it would be interesting to post and see what people thought of it.


*Spoiler*: __ 



My train of thought chugs along fueled by imagination, running on rails of reason. I disembark and wonder alongside the tracks as they meander through a meadow, fresh and green. The track diverges once or twice but the rails don't give each other room to think until they come to a tunnel and disappear into its dark recesses. The tunnel confuses my senses and I often stumble the wrong way even when convinced I was on the right track. As I leave the darkness my eyes ache in the harsh sunlight and I long for the clouded skies before the tunnel and the shade they brought.


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## Tyrael (Dec 25, 2007)

Anonx said:


> ok i wanted to post some sort of example of my writing but i don't really have anything thats a good example on here so i decided to post something different.
> 
> this is something I did to practice writing,it isn't my normal style and it isn't really part of a story although it isn't finished yet either; to be honest I don't really know what it is but there are things about it I like and I thought it would be interesting to post and see what people thought of it.
> 
> ...



Unsure how to judge that tbh, it only shows a relative writing style you admitted to being atypical of your work. Interesting crossweaving of metaphors though and minimalistic, yet fairly clear imagery.

I've now got a memory stick, so I will be able to transfer some of my writing to this comp and maybe I'll traet you all to a bit of my current project (it will be completely different and much shorter than the last thing I put on here).


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## Pan-on (Dec 25, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Unsure how to judge that tbh, it only shows a relative writing style you admitted to being atypical of your work. Interesting crossweaving of metaphors though and minimalistic, yet fairly clear imagery.
> 
> I've now got a memory stick, so I will be able to transfer some of my writing to this comp and maybe I'll traet you all to a bit of my current project (it will be completely different and much shorter than the last thing I put on here).



yeah it wasnt really written to be read in this manner, just to let me try out a few things but I think its quite interesting. I will get some of my more typical writing up at some point soon hopefully.


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## Tyrael (Dec 26, 2007)

Anonx said:


> yeah it wasnt really written to be read in this manner, just to let me try out a few things but I think its quite interesting. I will get some of my more typical writing up at some point soon hopefully.



You're probably best posting them in this thread, I've been told that we should make new thread to ease traffic and make the lit. dep. seem biggr but whenevr i postd abstracts outside this thread they've kinda been ignored. Or mayb it's just me...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 26, 2007)

Well that picture is finally done, it looks great too. Like it looked good before, but the coloring makes such a difference, it became amazing.


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## Batman (Dec 27, 2007)

Wow this thread has really blown up since i've been way. Ive been honing my skills people, dancing with the bitch that is editing and loose outlining the plot fr book 2. I love this stuff!!


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## Shiraishi (Dec 27, 2007)

Hm, I wonder why I never saw this thread. I'm an aspiring novel in some aspects. I know I want to get into something with writing, but my main problem like many others, is that I can't usually finish something. I usually get burnt out; I go at my Microsoft Word like a maniac and write five chapters in two days, and by the time the whole story is dead and stale to me.


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## Aldrick (Dec 27, 2007)

Spoilered for huge massive chunk of text. I copypasta'd it from Microsoft Word.


*Spoiler*: __ 



His heart was pounding. He was sure he had seen the doorknob turning. This was because he was watching himself turn the doorknob. His heart was pumping blood to various parts of his body. The man, whose name was Sarah, decided to stop doing what he was doing, which was watching himself turn doorknobs. Instead, he decided to go eat porridge because he was experiencing hunger. Sarah then decided to change his name to Arthur because society had burned into his subconscious that Sarah was not a suitable name for a man. This didn?t really matter as no one knew his name and his wife had forgotten it 3 years ago.
 Soon after filling out large amounts of paperwork, soon-to-be-Arthur decided to change his name again as he had accidentally written ?soon-to-be-Arthur? instead of ?Arthur? on his Change of Name paper which resulted in more paperwork. 
 Arthur was a librarian. However, the library he owned was in his living room. The local council decided it would be bad for the outside world if such a boring and miserable person were to be encouraged to go outside, as he would bring down the general population?s unmiserableness. As such, there were no signs stating that this public library was in Arthur?s house and no one knew about it, which was what exactly the council wanted. Arthur questioned this but the council hurriedly dismissed it, citing ?Thesignistooexpensiveohmywilltoliveisbeingsuckedquicklygetoutofhere?.
This was good enough for the subservient man.
 Arthur also enjoyed accountancy, accounting and collecting interesting pieces of blank paper. His wife, Maureen, had succumbed to the boredom irradiating from her husband, so much to the point that they have not made physical contact for 5 years, speech for 3.
 As Arthur was busy doing what he was doing before he was watching himself turn doorknobs which was rearranging the/his library in alphabetical order, as every week a person sent from the council was to rearrange the library. This constituted of the man pushing down the shelves, hitting things with a large blunt object then running away as fast as he could, so not to catch the dreaded boring.
 Knocking came from the door. Maureen had returned from buying groceries and Arthur went to open the door for her. His heart was pounding. He was sure he had seen the doorknob turn. Then the door burst open, concussing Arthur in several parts of the brain and breaking his nose with a loud crunch. Maureen ignored him and placed the grocery bag on the kitchen table. It quickly greyed and wrinkled.
 As Arthur was writhing in pain, he contemplated his life. He realised that his life was what many people considered to be boring and monotonous. There and then, he decided to spin his life in a new direction, almost reviving the colour of the carpet which he was lying on. Almost. He revived the red of the carpet though, as his nose was bleeding pretty badly. Then he suddenly remembered he had just received severe trauma to the head and started writhing in pain, going through the motions of the Foetal, the Dying Cockroach and the Shaken Baby. Then he promptly forgot to change his life around because the brain damage was setting in. Coincidentally, he also forgot all the details of his wedding and the time before he was afflicted with extreme dull and the details of how he came to be.
 Then he got up and did what home-librarians have to do in home-libraries. Whatever that is. Maureen did whatever wives of extremely boring home-librarians did. It didn?t involve venting frustration or fridge repairmen. Several hours later, Arthur heard a knocking coming from the door. He proceeded to get up and went to open the door.
 His heart was pounding. The door burst open, smashing through Arthur?s skull, sending bony shrapnel shredding up his brain, instantly killing him.

 Arthur woke up in a churning sea of dark water with purple streaks in it. As he sat up, the water felt very heavy and sluggish, like a huge pool of slug jelly. As he finally managed to sit up after swashing and slushing around for approximately 4 minutes, a figure emerged from the water. It was vaguely human shaped and shaped pretty vaguely. It also smelt of garden compost.

?Lok-o?th Y?lk, H?r??Un-Garr A?rkh?n-sh-g?uu, Zul?a-o?Tre-Vo?lt Ell-r-Xenu?a-g?a?ter?fa. H?ron-mu?x?Th.?

?Who are you? Where am I? What does this all mean? Who-?

?Shut up and get that jelly out of your ears. Firstly, my name is not important. You are in the Gateway. This means you died. I am here to guide you through it.?

?Why is your text so big? That?s not fair.?

?Look, that?s not important.?

?I think it is. It makes me feel all unimportant and all.?

?Well, you?re not One of the Universe or a Cosmic Being or anything; you?re just a boring librarian. It doesn?t matter if you feel small because you are.?

?Well, now I?m covered in some cosmic goo. At least I get some knowledge about the universe, right??

?You?re destined to have a part in saving the fate of existentialism.?

?That?s not what I was expecting. I still want a bigger font.?

?Just be quiet, you?re breaking the fourth-?

At this point a cosmic ringing started, stopped, began, created and was created. Arthur sat patiently in the existentialist goo. The Cosmic Universal Being Thing picked up what appeared to be a Cosmic Universal phone.

?Furi Kuri? Katamari Damashi?i? Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann!?

Arthur listened at the extremely strange language, in bewilderded wonderment at the language of the universe?s universitiness.

?Apparently you?re not meant to be here. Yet.?

The slimy existence sprouted a slimy, existing tentacle and picked up Arthur and threw him down, up, inside, north-north-east, toothpaste, centrally, outwards, octopus and south into the pool. As Arthur went deeper into the goo, he stopped abruptly when he hit the bottom of the pool which felt like it was made of cement. However, as Arthur was going faster than the speed of time, he smashed through and landed.


Arthur regained consciousness with a gargantuan headache, of titan proportions. So painful was it, his brain numbed over and he entered shock and experienced cardiac arrest.

?What are you doing here again? I already said you shouldn?t be here. What did you do, give yourself a heart attack??

?Oh dear. Golly, where am I??

?You?re in the Gate- Forget it. Don?t die so often.?

?Forget what? What did I forget??

?Never mind.?

Arthur regained consciousness to find a strange, smiling man in his doorway. This rather strange man was carrying a tub of yoghurt, the size of a basketball, in the shape of a tub of yoghurt. Arthur carefully studied him for a while, feeling a feeling that something was going to happen.

?Hello there, can I interest you in this rather large tub of yoghurt? It?s as big as a basketball.?

?Not really. Yoghurt makes my stomach ache and I have trouble with most dairy but it?s been a long time since I?ve been to the doctor, the last time was last year for some tinea on the webs of my feet and I haven?t spoke to him since so I?m not really sure if I should.?

?You don?t have to eat it. You can, uh, look at it.?

?It doesn?t look really interesting.?

?Uh, sure it does! It?s got a lovely? tub-shape and, uh, um? it?s as big as a basketball??

?You already said that.?

?I didn?t say it was lovely.?

?Yes you did.?

?I said I didn?t say it was lovely beforehand.?

?You?ve said it once.?

?Then how can I say it twice??

?You didn?t.?

?But you said I did!?

?No I didn?t.?

?Forget it.?

?Forget what??

At this point, there was a very awkward silence. So awkward that the previous and extremely confusing




That's all I'm up to.


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## Shiraishi (Dec 27, 2007)

So, a quick question to you all. What do you guys usually write about? Fantasy, sci-fi, romance, ect? I'm usually into writing some fantasy stories with a bit of sci-fi thrown in. I once tried writing a cyber punk mystery, but I couldn't get past the fifth chapter. It somehow came off as a Dan Brown rip-off.


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## Batman (Dec 27, 2007)

Shiraishi said:


> So, a quick question to you all. What do you guys usually write about? Fantasy, sci-fi, romance, ect? I'm usually into writing some fantasy stories with a bit of sci-fi thrown in. I once tried writing a cyber punk mystery, but I couldn't get past the fifth chapter. It somehow came off as a Dan Brown rip-off.



I write what most consider fantasy. The reality is that most of my stuff is action/adventure/mystery with fantastical elements.


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## Einstein (Dec 27, 2007)

As far as subjects go, I sometimes end up writing sci-fi, which surprises many who see me on a daily basis, because they never see me as a science fiction geek. In truth, I hate Star Wars, Star Trek, astronomy, planets, aliens, stars, supernovas, etc. But the fact that I'll get to place something in the future and come up with new inventions and create my own world that might just be somewhere out there is the only thing that keeps me writing the stuff.

I also go for thrillers, a lot. I suppose mystery is usually the main part of what would classify as a thriller (thriller doesn't always mean something scary). I like writing those because they involve guns, violence, sex, turning points, possible betrayal, and a calm resolution - and alot of people really like those. And the first thing I think when I write is "what kind of people will read this?" Even with the sci-fi, I ask that, because I want it to be science fiction, but I'd want somebody who was dead-pan against it (like myself) to still enjoy.

Therefore, science fiction, thrillers, and mysteries are what I usually write.


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## Dream Brother (Dec 27, 2007)

I guess it could be described as a mix of fantasy and scifi dunked in a bucket of noir, with a particular focus on violence and delving heavily into the psychological development of characters.


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## Blayze (Dec 27, 2007)

Fantasy, but it's a fantasy full of logic, explanation and what I know of science. Sure, one of the major things I write about is magic, but I do my best to make it adhere to its own rules and laws. I haven't yet had the opportunity to fully explore the majority of my characters, but quite a few of them have turned out interesting.


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## Tyrael (Dec 27, 2007)

sundae said:


> As far as subjects go, I sometimes end up writing sci-fi, which surprises many who see me on a daily basis, because they never see me as a science fiction geek. In truth, I hate Star Wars, Star Trek, astronomy, planets, aliens, stars, supernovas, etc. But the fact that I'll get to place something in the future and come up with new inventions and create my own world that might just be somewhere out there is the only thing that keeps me writing the stuff.



I think that is because of the brittleness of the definition of the fantasy genre, which is kinda ironic. I'm often the same, the thing I'm writin should be sci-fantasy, only read dune and neuromancer in the whole sci fi genre, but it's pretty much become sci-fi (well dystopian-ish). Don't get caught up in labels.

Oh, and im likin the pic CTK.


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## Trov (Dec 27, 2007)

Shiraishi said:


> So, a quick question to you all. What do you guys usually write about? Fantasy, sci-fi, romance, ect? I'm usually into writing some fantasy stories with a bit of sci-fi thrown in. I once tried writing a cyber punk mystery, but I couldn't get past the fifth chapter. It somehow came off as a Dan Brown rip-off.



Thats a good question. I find that I mostly focus on fantasy. This doesn't mean that focus on dungeons and dragons. Just things that aren't about ordinary people in ordinary times. things that don't seem realistic. For example, one idea is based on time travel, another based on a medevil time where there is magic(but no gnomes, hobbits, or dragons. Didn't want to go the started route) And one more based on zombies.
 I can only think of two ideas out of more than ten where I have actually based it in modern times where there isn't any kind of sci-fi/fantasy elements. One is about a rapist who has his own daughter raped(I'm currently working on this one as a novel.) And another thats a teen romance, although I'm trying not to add so much drama, and to have more comedy and just plain fun moments in it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 27, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> I think that is because of the brittleness of the definition of the fantasy genre, which is kinda ironic. I'm often the same, the thing I'm writin should be sci-fantasy, only read dune and neuromancer in the whole sci fi genre, but it's pretty much become sci-fi (well dystopian-ish). Don't get caught up in labels.
> 
> Oh, and im likin the pic CTK.



Thanks, I hope to have a whole bunch of my characters done like this someday.


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## Tyrael (Dec 28, 2007)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Thanks, I hope to have a whole bunch of my characters done like this someday.



Yeah, ever since I read the Last Hero I've pretty much been the same, not in a manga style though. It is unlikely, however, that this will actually happen...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 28, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Yeah, ever since I read the Last Hero I've pretty much been the same, not in a manga style though. It is unlikely, however, that this will actually happen...



I know people who draw in other styles who can do it, its just that I think the manga style suits them well. Like Dee here looks great in a manga style, as did the earlier drawing this same girl did of another character of mine.


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## Tyrael (Dec 28, 2007)

Aldrick said:


> Spoilered for huge massive chunk of text. I copypasta'd it from Microsoft Word.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Rite, I've read it all, and a couple of times it did make me chuckle, I'll give you that. You do know how to be funny and the nod to existentialism sounded interesting and amusing, but the overall style is one that comes across to me as a little amateurish. Look at your vocab and syntax, but keep going, it may need a bit of revision and editing but it was entertaining.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 30, 2007)

Aldrick said:


> Spoilered for huge massive chunk of text. I copypasta'd it from Microsoft Word.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I have to say that I sort of agree, its a little funny, but also a little ameature looking. I see a lot that might actually be funny to others, but that I don't like and I know a lot of its opinion, like the use of shows and such to be another language. It rubbed me the wrong way, as does phonetic spelling. 

I used to use it, and I was really good with it as far as British went, I used a very strict regiment of words and they were always consistently spelled. Only thing is  a lot of writers get carried away, they don't think that people will know this person has an accent if they don't do that stuff a whole lot.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 30, 2007)

I have restored the ambiguity of my tale as well as my interest in the protagonist.


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## Tyrael (Dec 30, 2007)

Lord Yu said:


> I have restored the ambiguity of my tale as well as my interest in the protagonist.



Ambiguity is often something not desired in the writing process, to the best of my knowledge. Then again, this possibly is not what you meant. Kinda suggests your just writing vaguely, unsure where you are really going.


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## Dream Brother (Dec 30, 2007)

I’m guessing that he means that his work has no (to use Keats’ term) ‘palpable design’ upon the reader. It’s basically showing rather than telling.

Although, correct me if I'm wrong, Yu.


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## Pan-on (Dec 30, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Ambiguity is often something not desired in the writing process, to the best of my knowledge. Then again, this possibly is not what you meant. Kinda suggests your just writing vaguely, unsure where you are really going.



I wouldn't necessarily agree, if it is done well ambiguity can be a good writing tool. Have you ever read "The turn of the Screw" its by Henry James and the entire story revolves around the ambiguity of what you are being told. It makes you question whether you believe the narrator. 

then again as you say at other times its just something written badly where you don't know whats going on.


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## Tyrael (Dec 30, 2007)

Dream Brother said:


> I’m guessing that he means that his work has no (to use Keats’ term) ‘palpable design’ upon the reader. It’s basically showing rather than telling.



Yeah, I'm probs just being silly.



Anonx said:


> I wouldn't necessarily agree, if it is done well ambiguity can be a good writing tool. Have you ever read "The turn of the Screw" its by Henry James and the entire story revolves around the ambiguity of what you are being told. It makes you question whether you believe the narrator.
> 
> then again as you say at other times its just something written badly where you don't know whats going on.



That sounds like you are talking about a carefully used and thoroughly planned theme in the book, not a tool which was was used during writing. What I am talking about is when a writer during the writing process is ambiguous as to his work. I have been guilty of that a few times admittedly...



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I used to use it, and I was really good with it as far as British went, I used a very strict regiment of words and they were always consistently spelled. Only thing is a lot of writers get carried away, they don't think that people will know this person has an accent if they don't do that stuff a whole lot.



backtracking a little, but I use this sparsely, although probably badly, to create a clear divide in education between characters often. Also I am yet to hear a "british" one despite having lived there all my life. The scottish stereotype at least varies greatly from english ones, and there is a discrepency between a lot of english coloquaisms. Then again I guess that can be said for everywhere (dialect is a tricky thing).


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## Blayze (Dec 31, 2007)

Come to Yorkshire. We're not quite Scottish and almost as incomprehensible! Or so goes the stereotype. From what I can gather, many regional accents have probably been diluted somewhat by now, what with all sorts of technological media by which foreign accents are transmitted directly into our brain meats.

As for ambiguity... I hate it. I want to know *everything* about a story, and I hate unanswered questions, regardless of whether they were ignored by accident or the writer decided it was a 'theme' of the story. To me, it just smacks of pointlessness. If there was no answer, why bother asking the question in the first place? If there was no conclusion, why bother even writing the story to begin with?


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## Lord Yu (Dec 31, 2007)

^Such is life. Anyway, I was talking about morality to make things clearer.


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## Tyrael (Dec 31, 2007)

Blayze said:


> Come to Yorkshire. We're not quite Scottish and almost as incomprehensible! Or so goes the stereotype. From what I can gather, many regional accents have probably been diluted somewhat by now, what with all sorts of technological media by which foreign accents are transmitted directly into our brain meats.



I agree, although I would like to think I am quite comprehensible, go a few hours up the road to Glasgow however and it is a different story...



> As for ambiguity... I hate it. I want to know *everything* about a story, and I hate unanswered questions, regardless of whether they were ignored by accident or the writer decided it was a 'theme' of the story. To me, it just smacks of pointlessness. If there was no answer, why bother asking the question in the first place? If there was no conclusion, why bother even writing the story to begin with?



Yeah, I've got a mate like that, he has a tendancy to spoil things like movies by telling everyone the twists, he hates it when you show him something that requires patience. I wonder how he would react to NGE.

Oh yeah and plot ambiguity=good.


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## Blayze (Dec 31, 2007)

Patience is always a good thing. I don't go around spoiling things for people. Moral ambiguity isn't really an issue with me. It's when there's questions that don't get answered that annoys me.

Like, for instance, if at the eventual end of the Half-Life series of games, one of the NPCs had said "Guys! I just worked it all out! G-Man is-" and then the credits start rolling.

The question was there. It could have been answered. It wasn't. Why? I'm always inclined to believe that the people responsible for the question being asked in the first place didn't have a clue as to the answer themselves, and they just couldn't answer it. They couldn't make it work.

"Maintaining an aura of mystery" is code for "We wrote ourselves into a corner."


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## Tyrael (Dec 31, 2007)

Blayze said:


> Patience is always a good thing. I don't go around spoiling things for people. Moral ambiguity isn't really an issue with me. It's when there's questions that don't get answered that annoys me.
> 
> Like, for instance, if at the eventual end of the Half-Life series of games, one of the NPCs had said "Guys! I just worked it all out! G-Man is-" and then the credits start rolling.
> 
> ...



Sometimes, have you ever seen Neon Gensis Evangelion or Donnie Darko? Ambiguity in the storyline can go to ways, both NGE and Donnie Darko do it brilliantly, but sometimes it does just seem like lazy story telling.


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## Blayze (Dec 31, 2007)

Ah, Evangelion. Yes, I have watched it. Rather, I have watched the episodes some time ago. All that I can really remember is that there's gigantic, twisted robots, every member of the cast is mentally unstable in one way or another, it's got quite a bit of Bible 'symbolism' and nothing ever made any sense at all, especially after the psychedelic light trips started.


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## Tyrael (Dec 31, 2007)

Blayze said:


> Ah, Evangelion. Yes, I have watched it. Rather, I have watched the episodes some time ago. All that I can really remember is that there's gigantic, twisted robots, every member of the cast is mentally unstable in one way or another, it's got quite a bit of Bible 'symbolism' and nothing ever made any sense at all, especially after the psychedelic light trips started.



Sounds like you pretty much remember it perfectly then, lol.

Heck it's new year I'll let you guys dig into a piece of my writing, constructive criticism very, very welcome:


*Spoiler*: __ 



The air, still, stagnant, did not seem to circulate the desolate industrial worksite. Long abandoned it stood like a grand tomb, dead. It was endemic of the industrial times Levit was moving out from; a plain, bulky, scar on the cityscape.
The large concrete area before it was mostly empty: the odd abandoned truck, buildings that were smaller but equally ungainly in an unremarkable kind of way, even pieces of obsolete machinery. A fence, ten feet high, wire barbed at its crown, sent a message to the world outside. A tension sizzled over it, silently, tangibly, draping the emptiness with an unseen malice.
The van rolled to halt, tires grinding across the ground, slowly. It was also, in fitting with its surroundings, unremarkable, save for a logo on its flanks.
Melissa saw the building through a window in the side of the van, dark squares on the pattern in the window making it look like she was viewing it through the bars of a prison.

?The mission today,? Lucas turned to the gathered, ?is the arrest of William Harting.?

He had not needed to say anymore, those words, meagre though they be, were enough. They were dealing with trouble.
Why it was believed Harting would be housed in a industrial complex was voiced with some bafflement, Lucas has warned of the potential for a trap.
Whatever was going to happen there would be trouble. She felt had had enough of that already. Barbara?s visage still, to some extent, haunted her mind. It was too early to forget yet she could not grieve.
Focus, she told herself. She would be in serious trouble if she did not give the mission all her attention.
A bang, more portentous than a mere noise should be, as the door was roughly slid open.
As soon as her feet hit the ground she felt vulnerable. If an ambush was planned in need not come from inside the factory. The area was surrounded by run down flats, most abandoned after the havoc caused by the riots.
Firearms, should any of them be hiding with the most illegal, and dangerous, weapon available in Levit then anyone hiding in the buildings in front of them would be able to kill them all with ease.

?We will do it, because are more than just a puppet, because we are justice and that is worth more than any of our lives.?

Justice?was that what she was looking for? The word tasted strangely empty in Melissa?s mouth.
As the answering thump was heard from the door sliding shut again the place fell into a silence, expectation making that silence eerie.
Nodding to her partner, Jessica, they headed towards the towering fence, cautiously.
Tony and Hedley headed towards the entrance. It had been an uncomfortably quiet journey to the factory.
Debbie, the medic, remained in the van along with their anonymous driver.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 31, 2007)

Tyrael said:


> Sometimes, have you ever seen Neon Gensis Evangelion or Donnie Darko? Ambiguity in the storyline can go to ways, both NGE and Donnie Darko do it brilliantly, but sometimes it does just seem like lazy story telling.



Most of the questions in both these things are answered if you just do a little searching. 



Blayze said:


> Patience is always a good thing. I don't go around spoiling things for people. Moral ambiguity isn't really an issue with me. It's when there's questions that don't get answered that annoys me.



Moral ambiguity can't be explained. The question is going to remain unanswered. 




Blayze said:


> Ah, Evangelion. Yes, I have watched it. Rather, I have watched the episodes some time ago. All that I can really remember is that there's gigantic, twisted robots, every member of the cast is mentally unstable in one way or another, it's got quite a bit of Bible 'symbolism' and nothing ever made any sense at all, especially after the psychedelic light trips started.



Actually all of the show makes sense when watched unedited, I can't think of too many large questions that were left unanswered.


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## GaruTekra (Jan 1, 2008)

I didn't discover this thread until now. I've been writing my first pretty long story. I started writing it around the end of the summer of 2007. Its called Four Years Later. I'm almost on 60 pages. It contains alot of Bleach elements but no cannon characters. It's defintely not a fanfic. I use real people and places. So basically it's in the year of 2011. The plot is sort of similar to Bleach. It's going to be 3 parts and there will be a prequel.

Then for school theirs a Writers Club and I have a new shorter story, called the Greatful Ignorant Jock. A typical jock who loses everything and has to build his way back up, but as he grows accustom to being a normal guy, he has to choose between his previous life or his current one.

More morally centered and a different teen sort of book. I'm not writing anymore of this one until I finish the first part of FYL.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 1, 2008)

I really want to write a story that's something spy like, something kind of like Bourne Identity and the like. I would need to do major research before I go to do something like that.


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## Tyrael (Jan 1, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Most of the questions in both these things are answered if you just do a little searching.
> 
> Actually all of the show makes sense when watched unedited, I can't think of too many large questions that were left unanswered.



Actually, Neon Genesis Evangelion was supposedly designed the sole intent that it could never be interpreted in only one way, therefore most of the questions in the series have no single answer. Pretty much all of the subtext is very questionable to have any singular answer and it is at least as important as the actual plot.
The creator of Donnie Darko said it is "open to interpretation" meaning that there is not a definitive right one way or another.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I really want to write a story that's something spy like, something kind of like Bourne Identity and the like. I would need to do major research before I go to do something like that.



I have to say what I have seen of the Bourne films has not been impressive, are the books any better?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 1, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Actually, Neon Genesis Evangelion was supposedly designed the sole intent that it could never be interpreted in only one way, therefore most of the questions in the series have no single answer. Pretty much all of the subtext is very questionable to have any singular answer and it is at least as important as the actual plot.
> The creator of Donnie Darko said it is "open to interpretation" meaning that there is not a definitive right one way or another.
> 
> 
> ...



I guess the interpretation is one thing, but I think the story in NGE is pretty much there...now the Donnie Darko thing, it was released with more footage  that makes more sense, also the website helped it be understood too.

I actually love the Bourne films, some of my favorite movies, I am a real spy buff at heart and I think that the Bourne movies and the most recent James Bond are some of my favorite flicks.


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## Tyrael (Jan 2, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I guess the interpretation is one thing, but I think the story in NGE is pretty much there...now the Donnie Darko thing, it was released with more footage  that makes more sense, also the website helped it be understood too.
> 
> I actually love the Bourne films, some of my favorite movies, I am a real spy buff at heart and I think that the Bourne movies and the most recent James Bond are some of my favorite flicks.



If you look at NGE as just a story it's like just eating the icing of a cake. Sure it's sweet, but there is so much underneath. I've read the directors interpretation of events in Donnie Darko, actually that did not help at all.

I saw the second Bourne film and found myself really hoping the main character would die about half an hour into it. The story did not engage me and just things blowing up and people fighting is only impresive if the rest of the movie sets it up well. Then again, I'm just in a ranting sort of mood. I would give the books a chance though, because there is some potential in there. I think there are books at least. James Bond is good though, with a few exceptions, I'm thinking of having a look at the books for those, been told they are surprisingly brutal, as well as sleazy...

I take it my wee piece of writing is not getting a review though.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 2, 2008)

I hated the Bourne movies. I fell asleep on the second one and rolled my eyes at the third. The characters were like robots.


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## Tyrael (Jan 2, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I hated the Bourne movies. I fell asleep on the second one and rolled my eyes at the third. The characters were like robots.



Would you have liked it better if they had called it Clash of the Robot Spies?


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## Lord Yu (Jan 2, 2008)

Probably would have.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 2, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> If you look at NGE as just a story it's like just eating the icing of a cake. Sure it's sweet, but there is so much underneath. I've read the directors interpretation of events in Donnie Darko, actually that did not help at all.
> 
> I saw the second Bourne film and found myself really hoping the main character would die about half an hour into it. The story did not engage me and just things blowing up and people fighting is only impresive if the rest of the movie sets it up well. Then again, I'm just in a ranting sort of mood. I would give the books a chance though, because there is some potential in there. I think there are books at least. James Bond is good though, with a few exceptions, I'm thinking of having a look at the books for those, been told they are surprisingly brutal, as well as sleazy...
> 
> I take it my wee piece of writing is not getting a review though.



The novels are a lot different, there's some things I hear about them and I don't like the idea of it. But I still want to read them. They were written during the Cold War so they're going to be heavily involved with that sort of thing. 

As far as the Bourne Films go, I think that in comparison to the Bond films they're done a lot better on average, I don't like too many of the Bond films and the ones I do like are mostly the older ones. I liked Goldeneye, but after that it was kind of blah.

I actually like the characters in the Bourne movies, I think they actually show good emotion, the fights and stuff are so few and far between that counting them on making the move good is kind of not going to work. I wish there was more fighting, because I love that fighting style, but I still love those movies. 



Lord Yu said:


> I hated the Bourne movies. I fell asleep on the second one and rolled my eyes at the third. The characters were like robots.



Would you have liked it better if they threw a bunch of violence and sex in there, you know to make it more exciting? That was why I liked this movie, because it was the first spy movie I saw where the spies didn't act like they were ready to take on the world and take dumb risks. It was more realistic, likewise there's no need for there to be sex or an over abundance of violence, because most of the Bourne films only have one real fight where theres any kind of a match for him...


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## Lord Yu (Jan 2, 2008)

I didn't say anything like that. I just thought they were incredibly stiff.


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## Batman (Jan 2, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I hated the Bourne movies. I fell asleep on the second one and rolled my eyes at the third. The characters were like robots.



I though I was the only one. Those films were so dry to be that hyped.


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## Furious George (Jan 2, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I hated the Bourne movies. I fell asleep on the second one and rolled my eyes at the third. The characters were like robots.




Le gasp! 

The Bourne series was, like, one of the better action movie franchises of this century. You are mad!

....That being said, I fell asleep on the third one in the theatres, but I can assure you that I was just tired and it had nothing to do with the movie.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 2, 2008)

Le gasp is the most pretentious expression ever. Yes, to many I could be perceived as mad. But as it stands I have eyes, ears, and a heart. All of those tell me that the Bourne movies are stiff tranquilizers.


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## Furious George (Jan 2, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Le gasp is the most pretentious expression ever.



It is? Here I am thinking it would be funny. 



> Yes, to many I could be perceived as mad.



*nods head in agreement* 



> But as it stands I have eyes, ears, and a heart. All of those tell me that the Bourne movies are stiff tranquilizers.



Your heart, eyes, and ears tell you strange things. The stiffness you speak of, like CTK mentioned, is the reality of the spy world being injected directly into your mad face!


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## Tyrael (Jan 2, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Yes, to many I could be perceived as mad.



You are mad.

But enough of the very random Bourne talk, back to books. Is anyone going to read that thing I posted a page ago? I really need some constructive criticism.


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## Dream Brother (Jan 2, 2008)

I'm not a big fan of the Bourne series, but I did like the latest one. Good stuff.

I'm also not really a fan of Bond, but _Casino Royale_ was excellent.


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## Furious George (Jan 2, 2008)

*Dream Brother*: YES. Casino Royale was so awesome. Bond at his best. The only movies that are tocuhing it is Goldfinger. Goldeneye was pretty sweet too... gota read some of those books someday.

*Tyrael:* I'll check it out when I get back from the Library and I'll comment. If I don't do it today, I'll try tommorow.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 2, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> You are mad.
> 
> But enough of the very random Bourne talk, back to books. Is anyone going to read that thing I posted a page ago? I really need some constructive criticism.



I just read it. I need some time and my critic hat to think of something constructive to say.

@Dream Brother: Casino Royale wasn't to my fancy personally.


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## Dream Brother (Jan 2, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> @Dream Brother: Casino Royale wasn't to my fancy personally.



It may just be because I had low expectations -- seeing as I’ve actually hated many Bond films, especially the ones starring Mr one-dimensional-cardboard Pierce Brosnan -- but I was really impressed. Genuinely intelligent dialogue, particularly in the verbal fencing between Vesper/Bond, brutal and realistic fight sequences, and (the real shocker) multifaceted characters. There’s not so much action that the brain becomes numbed (_Transformers_, anyone?) and yet there is enough to perfectly compliment the more tranquil/character fleshing out scenes, and the card game is handled so well that even people who don't know the rules can get caught up in it. If the next Bond movie is as good as this one, I may just become a fan.


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## Furious George (Jan 2, 2008)

*Tyrael:* 

Kay, just read it... here's my thoughts. 

I felt the beginning paragraphs that describe the environment could have been better executed.. felt it was a bit wordy and I didn't get that clear an image of the worksite. IMO you may have gotten too wrapped up in describing the emotional tension of the setting that you never really described the buildings themselves. For instance, I don't even know the color of the buldings in question, which definitely could have helped bring me into the "empty, dead" world that you tried to convey. Personally I find that physical descriptions, when done right, evoke emotions and feelings on a much deeper level then outright mentioning of the emotion in question can.

Also, it wouldn't be a bad idea to describe the *smell* of the industrial complex. Nothing brings a reader in quite like a description of smell. 

There were also spelling and grammar errors here and there that you need to clean up. 

And, I didn't really get this line (might just be me): 



> Melissa saw the building through a window in the side of the van, dark squares on the pattern in the window making it look like she was viewing it through the bars of a prison.



dark square pattern in the window? Could you elaborate?

Other then that, it was pretty interesting. I would like to see where it is going.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 2, 2008)

I would hope someone would call me on it if I wrote this overly emotional, neurotic spy character who was supposed to be a professional. They really can't afford to be like that because that would just be a path to trouble.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 2, 2008)

I know a professional is supposed to be cold. I'll be the first to complain when a character like that is overly uppity. I just found something missing from the Bourne characters. He seemed less like a regretful assassin and more like a scared child. There was just a certain layer missing.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 2, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I know a professional is supposed to be cold. I'll be the first to complain when a character like that is overly uppity. I just found something missing from the Bourne characters. He seemed less like a regretful assassin and more like a scared child. There was just a certain layer missing.



They did kind of assassinate his wife, blame it on him and then try to blame other murders on him.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 2, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I know a professional is supposed to be cold. I'll be the first to complain when a character like that is overly uppity. I just found something missing from the Bourne characters. *He seemed less like a regretful assassin and more like a scared child.* There was just a certain layer missing.



Bolding for emphasis. Off of those movies.

I'm really liking where I've taken my primary antagonist. Too bad it will be so long before I can implement all my planning.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 2, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Bolding for emphasis. Off of those movies.
> 
> I'm really liking where I've taken my primary antagonist. Too bad it will be so long before I can implement all my planning.




I like how you put something in bold that really didn't answer anything, and then expect it to end because you say it does...I can read, I read it just fine when it was like this...hell I could even read it if I wanted in Wing Dings, still doesn't counter what I said about how he learned that all the killing he was doing was wrong through the killing of his wife, that's why in the end he goes and apologizes to the girl who's parents he killed. 

Character development like that, and a twist like that are hard to find in the theatrical world and a lot can be learned from movies, about writing and about topics to write on. 

Television writing is generally done differently, done to remind the viewer over and over what has passed (flashbacks and etc) in movies and novels you're viewer/reader generally has been there from the start and knows what happened. How often do you come in an hour and a half into a movie and just watch? How about a novel?


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## Lord Yu (Jan 2, 2008)

Good lord, Tyrael tried to take us back on topic and we went back and I tried to bring us back and you go off into TV. I remember you mentioning TV writing before but that has nothing to do with the subject were on now. I didn't like the movie. I thought the characters were stiff and unrealistic. No I did not expect them to crack jokes and/or guzzle martini's while having loads of sex. I can understand him being broken, but there was just a certain element missing from the characters that's on the tip of my tongue but won't come out. 

Now, this topic is not Jason Bourne. Nor is it TV writing. It's a thread about Aspiring novelists discussing their work. Get back to it please.


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## Dream Brother (Jan 2, 2008)

Er, to help get this back on track, I found a nice piece of advice by Hobb on writing:

_'My technique with characters is to try to let each character be the main character in his own story. Even if someone is just a ‘walk on’, it helps to remember that maybe that barmaid is near the end of her shift and is really tired, and to let her behave accordingly. When I first started writing, I found it was very easy for me to fall into that trap where I made all of the characters do what they must to make the plot advance smoothly. I wound up with minor characters who existed only to take a bullet for the protagonist or to be the romantic prize to be won. Cardboard.

When the characters are not true to themselves, the story loses its veracity. If you can put on the skin of even your minor characters and say, "What would I really want to do next? Wouldn’t I duck when I saw the arrow coming?" the plot becomes more interesting and the characters are believeable.'_

Most of you already do this already, no doubt, but it never hurts to be reminded while in the midst of writing a novel.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 2, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Now, this topic is not Jason Bourne. Nor is it TV writing. It's a thread about Aspiring novelists discussing their work. Get back to it please.



That's why I likened movie and television writing to novel writing, that was completely on topic. 



Dream Brother said:


> Er, to help get this back on track, I found a nice piece of advice by Hobb on writing:
> 
> _'My technique with characters is to try to let each character be the main character in his own story. Even if someone is just a ?walk on?, it helps to remember that maybe that barmaid is near the end of her shift and is really tired, and to let her behave accordingly. When I first started writing, I found it was very easy for me to fall into that trap where I made all of the characters do what they must to make the plot advance smoothly. I wound up with minor characters who existed only to take a bullet for the protagonist or to be the romantic prize to be won. Cardboard.
> 
> ...



I actually read something I don't have on me, its in a book somewhere. But the basic idea was that you don't try to make the characters do what you want them to, you let them do what they would. That's how I think of writing, my characters run the show.


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## Batman (Jan 3, 2008)

Dream Brother said:


> Er, to help get this back on track, I found a nice piece of advice by Hobb on writing:
> 
> _'My technique with characters is to try to let each character be the main character in his own story. Even if someone is just a ?walk on?, it helps to remember that maybe that barmaid is near the end of her shift and is really tired, and to let her behave accordingly. When I first started writing, I found it was very easy for me to fall into that trap where I made all of the characters do what they must to make the plot advance smoothly. I wound up with minor characters who existed only to take a bullet for the protagonist or to be the romantic prize to be won. Cardboard.
> 
> ...



That's a great word. Veracity. Do any of you keep lists of your favorite words? I do so that they become part of my everyday vocabulary in hopes they might become part of my natural writing process.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 3, 2008)

Batman said:


> That's a great word. Veracity. Do any of you keep lists of your favorite words? I do so that they become part of my everyday vocabulary in hopes they might become part of my natural writing process.




I don't have a list, but I do have some favorite words. Reverberated stands out, I have been using it for some time now.


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## Batman (Jan 3, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I don't have a list, but I do have some favorite words. Reverberated stands out, I have been using it for some time now.



I have been getting into this thing about not using words that stand out too much, too often. If I can remember the last time I used a word throughout the entire book, then I feel like I'm overusing it. Stuff like that bothers me for some reason. When I was reading the last HP novel, JK used the word Asuage like 30 times. It bugged the hell out of me.

Conversely I have a list of words I can't stand.

Resplendent tops that list.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 3, 2008)

Batman said:


> I have been getting into this thing about not using words that stand out too much, too often. If I can remember the last time I used a word throughout the entire book, then I feel like I'm overusing it. Stuff like that bothers me for some reason. When I was reading the last HP novel, JK used the word Asuage like 30 times. It bugged the hell out of me.
> 
> Conversely I have a list of words I can't stand.
> 
> Resplendent tops that list.



When I say stands out, I mean off the list of words  I like to use. I normally don't don't use it much if I wver do though. Maybe twice per story.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 3, 2008)

Batman said:


> That's a great word. Veracity. Do any of you keep lists of your favorite words? I do so that they become part of my everyday vocabulary in hopes they might become part of my natural writing process.



I really couldn't say my favorite words. I've collapse so far into myself over the past year. 2007 was my year of isolation, it's possible my vocabulary shrank even further. I haven't really read my work, but I'm pretty sure the language is pretty simplistic.


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## Einstein (Jan 3, 2008)

Batman said:


> I have been getting into this thing about not using words that stand out too much, too often. If I can remember the last time I used a word throughout the entire book, then I feel like I'm overusing it. Stuff like that bothers me for some reason. *When I was reading the last HP novel, JK used the word Asuage like 30 times. It bugged the hell out of me.
> *
> Conversely I have a list of words I can't stand.
> 
> Resplendent tops that list.



You noticed that too, eh?


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## usernames are troublesome (Jan 3, 2008)

Vocabulary is a wonderful thing. However, I find it annoying when people overuse their words. Simplicity sometimes cannot be beat. When I write, I opt for a to-the-point style that doesn't dare deviate in one direction or the other. I give enough detail and imagery to hopefully keep whomever is reading interested enough to want more. I just wish I could find motivation to write the novel I have been trying to write.


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## Einstein (Jan 3, 2008)

I honestly can't help you in the motivation category. I honestly never find the motivation to write something myself, unless I feel that someone is depending on me to write said story. That's the only way I have any motivation - a person/people must be awaiting the story, and since I am deadpan against not keeping promises, I write it, and to the best of my abilities as well.

But to write with nobody expecting/wanting me to.. I just can't.


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## Tyrael (Jan 3, 2008)

Lol, who needs Itachi vs Sasuke when we have CTK vs Yu?

Machinations is my favourite. Awesome word. Also anybody got any idea how many times William Gibson uses the word neon during Neuromancer? At least 15, which is just rediculous.

Oh and, as for motivation, try establishing a solid routine with writing as part of it, if you train yourself motivation will not be so big a deal.

Oh and Cykness, cheers for the feedback, the quote was just a black crisscross pattern you can find on glass sometimes, just me attempting to be symbolic.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 3, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Lol, who needs Itachi vs Sasuke when we have CTK vs Yu?
> 
> Machinations is my favourite. Awesome word. Also anybody got any idea how many times William Gibson uses the word neon during Neuromancer? At least 15, which is just rediculous.
> 
> ...



Its like the song says, "Repitition makes and impression." I have intentionally used a word or phrase over and over. I think that in the last story I finished the phrase was "But what's a thirty-something married mom know about _______" I didn't use it every chapter, but I used it to just establish the two sides of this character. Worked out pretty well I think. 

Some of my favorite repetitious phrases come from novels by Chuck Palunhuk; Fight Club and Diary. "I Am Jacks _____" in Fight Club and "The Weather Today is ____" in Diary were just really cool ways of expressing and underlying emotion of a scene.


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## Tyrael (Jan 3, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Its like the song says, "Repitition makes and impression." I have intentionally used a word or phrase over and over. I think that in the last story I finished the phrase was "But what's a thirty-something married mom know about _______" I didn't use it every chapter, but I used it to just establish the two sides of this character. Worked out pretty well I think.
> 
> Some of my favorite repetitious phrases come from novels by Chuck Palunhuk; Fight Club and Diary. "I Am Jacks _____" in Fight Club and "The Weather Today is ____" in Diary were just really cool ways of expressing and underlying emotion of a scene.



Well neon is a good word as it has connotations that say such a lot about cyberpunk altogether, yet still when a word sticks out through over repitition its not a good thing.

The technique reminds me of -dattebayo!


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## usernames are troublesome (Jan 3, 2008)

I have motivation to write lyrics, but never stories. When I have tried, I felt as if I was going nowhere real fast. I guess I just need to keep trying.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 3, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Well neon is a good word as it has connotations that say such a lot about cyberpunk altogether, yet still when a word sticks out through over repitition its not a good thing.



The trick is making it noticed but not overdoing it. 



> Me? My name is Persephanie, Sephie, or P; depending upon who you are. I?m supposed to be a thirty six year old married mother of two, yet somehow I know that a bullet can sometimes ricochet off bones. Any time you have a ricochet the next impact is going to be more devastating because now the bullet is weakened, it could fragment.
> 
> How many thirty six year old moms know that?





> The weather today is increasing concern followed by full blown dread.





> _Just for the record, the weather today is bitter with occasional fits of jealous rage_


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## Tyrael (Jan 3, 2008)

usernames are troublesome said:


> I have motivation to write lyrics, but never stories. When I have tried, I felt as if I was going nowhere real fast. I guess I just need to keep trying.



I sit myself down for a couple of hours before I go to bed, just designating a period where you know you won't be interrupted and will be free. Once you get into the swing of swings suddenly it will be much easier. What you are describing is something i know all too well.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The trick is making it noticed but not overdoing it.



Indeed. Then again, that's almost subliminal messages.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 3, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I sit myself down for a couple of hours before I go to bed, just designating a period where you know you won't be interrupted and will be free. Once you get into the swing of swings suddenly it will be much easier. What you are describing is something i know all too well.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. Then again, that's almost subliminal messages.



I kind of like that system of using phrases like that, but I don't want it to become a staple in my writing, I thought about doing it for a while, but then decided against it .


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## Tyrael (Jan 3, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I kind of like that system of using phrases like that, but I don't want it to become a staple in my writing, I thought about doing it for a while, but then decided against it .



I like my style to flexible, I would consider using it if I thought the story would benefit it.


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## Batman (Jan 3, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Lol, who needs Itachi vs Sasuke when we have CTK vs Yu?
> 
> Machinations is my favourite. Awesome word. Also anybody got any idea how many times William Gibson uses the word neon during Neuromancer? At least 15, which is just rediculous.
> 
> ...



I have the worst routine ever. I work on my 10k words at 3 differnt times a day.  The times always change as well


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## Lord Yu (Jan 3, 2008)

I tend to write most when I'm emotional. I try not to write unless I can spill my emotion into my story.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 4, 2008)

I just got like fifty five pages into this story and realized that I hated where it was going and how it was getting there. So I am going to start over, I might use what I can of the start, but now I am not even sure I want it in third person. I hate when this happens, but sometimes it has to be done.


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## Trov (Jan 5, 2008)

I... write whenever I'm in the mood. which is really once a week. I usually get an urge, but never get around to doing it until the urge piles up and I just want to do it. Like now for instance.

I usually get more motivated the more I'm complimented with my work.


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## Tyrael (Jan 5, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I just got like fifty five pages into this story and realized that I hated where it was going and how it was getting there. So I am going to start over, I might use what I can of the start, but now I am not even sure I want it in third person. I hate when this happens, but sometimes it has to be done.



I know the feeling man, I'm currently on the 4th draft of my current project and I reckon if I ever finish it, it'll need 2 be revised a couple of times at least...



Trov said:


> I usually get more motivated the more I'm complimented with my work.



This is something that is the same for at least 80% of writers I would expect.



Batman said:


> I have the worst routine ever. I work on my *10k words *at 3 differnt times a day.  The times always change as well



10k a day? wtf?


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## tgre (Jan 8, 2008)

I've successfully got my first 5 chapters of my novel under publication rights but I'm now facing writer's block and my editor is not going to be too happy if I don't get him another few chapters within the next month or so.

What's a good way to overcome this notion of "Writer's block"?


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## Lord Yu (Jan 8, 2008)

Music lots of music and throw in some masturbation to induce mild natural euphoria.


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## BandGeekNinja (Jan 8, 2008)

I am an aspiring novelist, but the only thing I have written for my novel thus far is a prologe. I just posted it a day ago (or maybe two, I lose track of time easily) its under 'A Light in the Darkness' I really wouldnt mind some feed back on what you people think of it...so please...check it out...please


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## Lord Yu (Jan 8, 2008)

Post a selection and I'll ignore it due to my fragile ego, several other people will read maybe one will just say it's nice and move on to bicker with me on some inane issue. It's how this thread works. 

I should start reading my work. So far I've been writing only for the sake of plot progression disregarding structure. Editing is gonna be a pain.


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## tgre (Jan 8, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Music lots of music and throw in some masturbation to induce mild natural euphoria.



Once its all over... I feel empty


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## Lord Yu (Jan 8, 2008)

Use highly emotional music like minimalist neo classical or theatrical stuff like avant garde metal. I  can't tell how much maudlin of the Well has inspired.


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## Batman (Jan 8, 2008)

tiGer said:


> Once its all over... I feel empty



He said induce, not conclude.

Anyways, is your novel fiction or non. I heard it's difficult to get preview chapters under publication unless it's non fiction.


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## Serp (Jan 8, 2008)

I thought I should step by here, I have many stories in me, most I draw out but this one,  Ive decided to type up, its about Werewolves and so far I have a few positive comments to it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 8, 2008)

For the most part, lately I have been far too tired to come home and type up stuff on my story, I hope tonight that will be a little different.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 10, 2008)

I've got tons of new ideas to bring to my story. Now to finish this chapter.


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## Serp (Jan 10, 2008)

Im contemplating posting the first few pages of my Werwolf Novella, but im scared from the responses I get, given I have always been shit at grammar


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## Tyrael (Jan 10, 2008)

Serp said:


> Im contemplating posting the first few pages of my Werwolf Novella, but im scared from the responses I get, given I have always been shit at grammar



Go for it, if any of us criticise your grammar claims its a stylistic trait.


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## Serp (Jan 10, 2008)

True enough I guess I could make a separate thread of it


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## Einstein (Jan 10, 2008)

I think that'd be cool, but with making a separate thread comes people who don't really know slash give a damn about writing, and will only be there to criticize for the most part. Here, we actually respect the trade.

Then again, I'm way too much of a cynic, don't listen to anything I say XP


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 11, 2008)

I wrote things this past week that I am really proud of, I actually like the direction that I went with this one. It's got some really cool quotes that I like to. I'm not usually good at memorable quotes though.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 11, 2008)

All I've managed to work out this week are vagina jokes.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 12, 2008)

Here are more of the characters my friend drew for the story...


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## Tyrael (Jan 14, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> All I've managed to work out this week are vagina jokes.



Sounds more productive than me. Currently I am only just recovered from one of my odd writer's blocks where I can write, but it takes huge amounts of effort and everything is crap.


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## Serp (Jan 14, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Here are more of the characters my friend drew for the story...


I like those pics, funny enough the that blond one looks like my main Char


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 14, 2008)

Serp said:


> I like those pics, funny enough the that blond one looks like my main Char



He's actually a pretty minor one, he's a demon hunting priest. But most of the characters get the center stage at least some of the time. Actually the Angel of Death is fast becoming a bigger character.


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## Serp (Jan 14, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> He's actually a pretty minor one, he's a demon hunting priest. But most of the characters get the center stage at least some of the time. Actually the Angel of Death is fast becoming a bigger character.


Nice I hope I can get around to reading your story, seeing as my main Char is the Alpha of a werewolf pack, and in which has to deal with things that threaten the pack


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 14, 2008)

Serp said:


> Nice I hope I can get around to reading your story, seeing as my main Char is the Alpha of a werewolf pack, and in which has to deal with things that threaten the pack



Thanks, I actually have a fair number of vampires in my story, but they really haven't had much spotlight time as of yet. I have posted several pictures of my characters though, I won't post them again (because it takes space and all) but I could post links. 


I have a story that's getting pretty expansive, with characters based on both real people and made up from my head. And a storyline that could span over thousands of years depending upon how in depth I want to get with it. 

Here are the pics: 

Sephie



Dee


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## tgre (Jan 14, 2008)

Well, the basis of my story is pirates. Everyone's done Wizards and magic and I decided I'd do pirates (no its not a One Piece rip-off). Also inspired as I am by the anime world and the generic shounen storylines with mana systems... Ive also decided to whack in there some elemental houses for people to scream Ka-boom over.

Of course my main character and the best friend are both boys who break out of an orphanage to join a crew. They have no idea about all of this and the system of the elemental whizbangs and the pirate storyline is still in pre-production mode.

However I do want to get a prologue down otherwise my editor will kill me (she said a good prologue makes a good novel )

I've basically given as much about my book as I have thought up (minus random tidbits) and I would appreciate any ideas as to how to approach a prologue.

Not to mention, the world it's set in is under monarchy/anarchic rule.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 14, 2008)

tiGer said:


> Well, the basis of my story is pirates. Everyone's done Wizards and magic and I decided I'd do pirates (no its not a One Piece rip-off). Also inspired as I am by the anime world and the generic shounen storylines with mana systems... Ive also decided to whack in there some elemental houses for people to scream Ka-boom over.
> 
> Of course my main character and the best friend are both boys who break out of an orphanage to join a crew. They have no idea about all of this and the system of the elemental whizbangs and the pirate storyline is still in pre-production mode.
> 
> ...



Be careful using concepts from animes, they generally don't work well in literature just because of how they are written. Of course as far as houses and all that crap, I have no idea what the Hell you're talking about because I kind of refuse to watch One Piece.


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## tgre (Jan 14, 2008)

Oh haha, I know mate... I'm a writer by part-time profession (as in free-lance journalist for moniez ) But I know that also anime conceptualization into a westernized world especially in writing is dangerous. I'm trying to borrow only little ideas. Just small enough tidbits of anime information that inspires me.

Im out of touch with anime as it is, I stopped watching shows about a year ago and even now I don't really read mangas. Only thing that's anime I watch are Studio Ghbili productions (Hayao Miyazaki *IS* the Walt Disney of Japanese animation you know ).

But back on topic, I have never watched One Piece and that houses crap... is an original idea. It's just that whenever I start spewing out my ideas and mention the word "pirate" everyone assumes "OMFGLOL ONE PIECE RIP OFF DIE BISHLOL!!!11!1"

Resulting in *another* plummet in my moment of brilliance.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 14, 2008)

tiGer said:


> Oh haha, I know mate... I'm a writer by part-time profession (as in free-lance journalist for moniez ) But I know that also anime conceptualization into a westernized world especially in writing is dangerous. I'm trying to borrow only little ideas. Just small enough tidbits of anime information that inspires me.
> 
> Im out of touch with anime as it is, I stopped watching shows about a year ago and even now I don't really read mangas. Only thing that's anime I watch are Studio Ghbili productions (Hayao Miyazaki *IS* the Walt Disney of Japanese animation you know ).
> 
> ...



People act like One Piece is the first shit to have Pirates in it.


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## tgre (Jan 14, 2008)

Don't people watch Errol Flynn movies?


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## Lord Yu (Jan 14, 2008)

tiGer said:


> Oh haha, I know mate... I'm a writer by part-time profession (as in free-lance journalist for moniez ) But I know that also anime conceptualization into a westernized world especially in writing is dangerous. I'm trying to borrow only little ideas. Just small enough tidbits of anime information that inspires me.
> 
> Im out of touch with anime as it is, I stopped watching shows about a year ago and even now I don't really read mangas. Only thing that's anime I watch are Studio Ghbili productions (Hayao Miyazaki *IS* the Walt Disney of Japanese animation you know ).
> 
> ...


You know Hayao Muyazaki hates that comparison right? I'd say his reasoning for it is pretty good. Your story doesn't sound like a one piece rip off. I'd say just forget what people say and do whatever you want.

On the subject of prologues. I've been thinking about doing a background story for one of my major characters. This might turn into another book in itself. OK that had nothing to do with prologues. But I just wanted to say it.


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## tgre (Jan 14, 2008)

Hey... Im going to appreciate any input on this thread 

whether the topic is directed at me or not


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## Lord Yu (Jan 14, 2008)

My story is about to kick into high gear and the second half of the story is almost here!


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## tgre (Jan 14, 2008)

Hey that rhymes when you say it out loud 

A brief outline of your story? 

Btw... how does: "Gray Odyssey" and "Hector Maude" sound for the names of my two main characters? I picked up Hector from the Roman/Spartan times and Odyssey is basically a derision from the Greek sailor Odysseus. It also means a "series of long wanderings"


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## Lord Yu (Jan 14, 2008)

Not really feeling Odyssey unless your doing a light-hearted epic.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 14, 2008)

tiGer said:


> Hey that rhymes when you say it out loud
> 
> A brief outline of your story?
> 
> Btw... how does: "Gray Odyssey" and "Hector Maude" sound for the names of my two main characters? I picked up Hector from the Roman/Spartan times and Odyssey is basically a derision from the Greek sailor Odysseus. It also means a "series of long wanderings"



Is it supposed to be Gray or Gary? I don't really think the Odyssey name is really all that great, but that's me. And Hector is fine, but Maude seems like an old lady's name.


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## Tyrael (Jan 15, 2008)

tiGer said:


> Hey that rhymes when you say it out loud
> 
> A brief outline of your story?
> 
> Btw... how does: "Gray Odyssey" and "Hector Maude" sound for the names of my two main characters? I picked up Hector from the Roman/Spartan times and Odyssey is basically a derision from the Greek sailor Odysseus. It also means a "series of long wanderings"



Fantasy pirate adventure influenced by anime? I guess I don't really tell you to tread carefully there.

Actually I think Odyssey is quite a good name, its distinctive and memorable, interesting, which is all a character name really needs to be.

CTK, you said you already had a few novels/novelettes of your big project finished, are you planning on doing anything with them or waiting until you finish the whole thing or?


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## tgre (Jan 15, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Not really feeling Odyssey unless your doing a light-hearted epic.



That's essentially what it is. My story is aimed at all ages and I don't want to stress over the names all that much. A light-hearted epic. 



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Is it supposed to be Gray or Gary? I don't really think the Odyssey name is really all that great, but that's me. And Hector is fine, but Maude seems like an old lady's name.



Yeah  (And its Gray). I can't think of a good last name to accompany Hector... but I'm keeping Odyssey, Im not aiming for it to be all that great anyhow... he'll be going with Gray for the majority of the novel. I was considering Valentine but then I realised just how many main characters have "Valentine" in their name... so I need decent last names 




Tyrael said:


> Fantasy pirate adventure influenced by anime? I guess I don't really tell you to tread carefully there.
> 
> Actually I think Odyssey is quite a good name, its distinctive and memorable, interesting, which is all a character name really needs to be.
> 
> CTK, you said you already had a few novels/novelettes of your big project finished, are you planning on doing anything with them or waiting until you finish the whole thing or?



Thanks for the support... I'm reading through some Alexandre Dumas for some decent inspiration nao


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 15, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> CTK, you said you already had a few novels/novelettes of your big project finished, are you planning on doing anything with them or waiting until you finish the whole thing or?



It really just depends, right now I am working on this system where I write short stories that go more in depth into the characters and kind of give more information about them at the same time I am working on the third large story. 

 I am also about to start working on strengthening my characters by filling out information sheets on EVERY major character. The thing is, I am not sure how I am going to go about doing anything with them, if I wait that would be odd since they would all just be sitting here.



tiGer said:


> Yeah  (And its Gray). I can't think of a good last name to accompany Hector... but I'm keeping Odyssey, Im not aiming for it to be all that great anyhow... he'll be going with Gray for the majority of the novel. I was considering Valentine but then I realised just how many main characters have "Valentine" in their name... so I need decent last names.



I have a strange taste in names maybe, thing is I like more naturalistic sounding names as opposed to ones from mythology because I just think them to be pretentious.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 15, 2008)

My naming process
1. Fuck around with phonics
2.That sounds good
3.????
4.PROFIT!


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## tgre (Jan 15, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:
			
		

> I have a strange taste in names maybe, thing is I like more naturalistic sounding names as opposed to ones from mythology because I just think them to be pretentious.



Hahaha, yeah I like the more mythology-induced names (not too fucked up like fantasy names ie: "COME HITHER ALD'UR HAT'FLOGIN")
But something along the lines of the names I have chosen. My inspiration of these type of names started from Harry Potter believe it or not... about a solid 6 years ago I blamed my parents for not naming me "Severus" or "Percival"


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## Lord Yu (Jan 15, 2008)

I also think about region basing to be honest. What do the languages sound like in that area? But then again that's only if you're getting into serious world building and want to go nuts with multiple languages.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 15, 2008)

Well my story takes place in the real world, and the names reflect the places the characters are from. Hence mythology names will only appear in my story with good reason (like the demons names)


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## tgre (Jan 15, 2008)

Ah my world is set in our world as well (ie: real places etc) but the setting and context is totally different. The system is different. It is controlled by an anarchic king and queen (Royal family) and boats rule the seas.

Other than that... we still have relatively rustic technology and nearly every major city has a dock of some sort, whether it be an airship dock or seaside dock.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 15, 2008)

tiGer said:


> Ah my world is set in our world as well (ie: real places etc) but the setting and context is totally different. The system is different. It is controlled by an anarchic king and queen (Royal family) and boats rule the seas.
> 
> Other than that... we still have relatively rustic technology and nearly every major city has a dock of some sort, whether it be an airship dock or seaside dock.



Mine is set in our world, the not too distant future (circa 2025 or so) most of the cities and places that are spoken of are real. There is new technology, but not to the point that it overshadows other parts of the story.


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## tgre (Jan 15, 2008)

Just by looking at the characters in your sig, I'm turned on. For some reason... that priest looking guy makes me think about exorcism and whatnot


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## Lord Yu (Jan 15, 2008)

I wish I could have visuals. But my absurd standards could never be reached.


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## tgre (Jan 15, 2008)

Unless you get professional illustrators 

Im not too worried about my visuals right now. I have enough confidence in my imagery skills to induce a visual image for my readers anyway 

But I still wish I had some visuals to work with like CTK... that chick in the backgroud looks hawt

suck my cawk hawt wimmenz


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## Tyrael (Jan 15, 2008)

My main characters are Daniel, Melissa, Elaine and Zack, it takes a very Frank Herbert approach. half the names are completely normal and the rest are unpronouncable.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 15, 2008)

tiGer said:


> Just by looking at the characters in your sig, I'm turned on. For some reason... that priest looking guy makes me think about exorcism and whatnot



Lol thanks, he's actually an exorcist on top of just the all out Demon fighting. His back story is a little checkered, he was part of a group that fights demons that is operated by the Catholic Church (actually took the idea from an anime) but he quit the group when he fell in love and the woman died. Now he just runs and orphan edge and freelance fights demons. 



tiGer said:


> Unless you get professional illustrators
> 
> Im not too worried about my visuals right now. I have enough confidence in my imagery skills to induce a visual image for my readers anyway
> 
> ...



She's more cute than hot I would say, she's actually pretty young, although its hard to tell in her picture, she's 17 and one of the main things about her that she complains of is how she's never actually had anyone love her or hard a boyfriend, of course it could be because she's just 17...or because she's the acting Angel of Death.


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## tgre (Jan 15, 2008)

I like your idea... so would you be adding any occult and gothic renditions of language and sources in your novel then?

Because if it involves the church as you say... ultimately 666, Satan, Mark of the Beast etc is bound to pop up. 

A lot of research was involved I imagine 

As for me... I had to research famous pirates for about half a year... I took over 20 different Piracy codes, borrowed a little from each and created a universal Piracy code of ethics which comprises of over 30 different rules on the sea. Not to mention I had to research different Gods which controlled different elements and whatnot.

So how much research did you do?


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## Serp (Jan 15, 2008)

CTK those pics you posted eariler are awesome  I like Dee the most 

and I need to find an illustrator to draw pictures of my chars


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## Tyrael (Jan 15, 2008)

tiGer said:


> I like your idea... so would you be adding any occult and gothic renditions of language and sources in your novel then?
> 
> Because if it involves the church as you say... ultimately 666, Satan, Mark of the Beast etc is bound to pop up.
> 
> ...



I could be really perdantic and point out that 666 is actually a mistranslation but...

And, wow, that's a lot of research. All the research I do is guessing if what I am writing is feasible. Sometimes I even Wiki it, I take you used more realiable sources?



Serp said:


> CTK those pics you posted eariler are awesome  I like Dee the most
> 
> and I need to find an illustrator to draw pictures of my chars



Lol, you need to work on your grammar first Serp, worry about pictures later.


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## tgre (Jan 15, 2008)

Out of curiosity's sake... tell me the reasoning behind 666 please 

I've never really understood the occult that in-depth at all


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## Lord Yu (Jan 15, 2008)

666 is the symbol of man becoming God.


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## Tyrael (Jan 15, 2008)

Apparently the real number 616 or something, the bible has almost as many mistranslations as there has been misinterpretations.


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## tgre (Jan 15, 2008)

This is the reason why I watched "The Omen" and didn't understand a word it was saying


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## Lord Yu (Jan 15, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Apparently the real number 616 or something, the bible has almost as many mistranslations as there has been misinterpretations.



There's another translation that says 665.


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## tgre (Jan 15, 2008)

What's so powerful/bullshit about that number specifically?


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## Serp (Jan 15, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Lol, you need to work on your grammar first Serp, worry about pictures later.



I really hope that isnt a personal dig at me , seeing as I started as a Manga artist but decided some stories are better of as text, images are very important to me. And your telling me I need to work on my grammar, like I didn't notice that myself and directly tell you guys, training to be a psychiatrist rarely stimulates my drive to use correct grammar, hence im a little rusty.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 15, 2008)

tiGer said:


> What's so powerful/bullshit about that number specifically?



The number of the beast, the symbol of the Antichrist.


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## Tyrael (Jan 15, 2008)

Serp said:


> I really hope that isnt a personal dig at me , seeing as I started as a Manga artist but decided some stories are better of as text, images are very important to me. And your telling me I need to work on my grammar, like I didn't notice that myself and directly tell you guys, training to be a psychiatrist rarely stimulates my drive to use correct grammar, hence im a little rusty.



I know, don't worry yourself, I'm hardly in any position to knock anyone else aspiring towaards writerdom. And I know you realise you know about the grammar but I was saying being able to communicate your imagery is much more important than having a solid model, although that admittedly pictures can be a big help. Soz if it came off a bit offensive.



tiGer said:


> What's so powerful/bullshit about that number specifically?



Apparently it's something to do with us being branded or about us knowing the nature of the devil, or something odd like that, then again my knowledge is shaky on the subject. Hell, I tried to read revelations, scared the shit out of me.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 15, 2008)

Serp said:


> CTK those pics you posted eariler are awesome  I like Dee the most
> 
> and I need to find an illustrator to draw pictures of my chars



Lol thanks, she's actually my favorite to write. 

*Edit:  *Actually its an anime called Crono Crusade.



Tyrael said:


> And, wow, that's a lot of research. All the research I do is guessing if what I am writing is feasible. Sometimes I even Wiki it, I take you used more realiable sources?



A lot of the time I actually go out and buy books, I have books on the Bible, on Angels and Demons and demonology and religion. I have some books on the FBI, since most of my characters are FBI agents, I have books on monsters, on psychology and several other things. 

I even bought some Lovecraft because I was entertaining the thought of using Chutulu once.


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## tgre (Jan 15, 2008)

So you have done your research after all


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## Serp (Jan 15, 2008)

Feh anyways 

The first part of my story is just a introduction to the story, showing how the people interact with each other, and the problems of Hierarchy and the battles for dominance that sprouts from it. In retrospective, the story would go just as easily if they characters weren't werewolves, as it deals with how difference in social status affects everything. 

Yet in the second one, is where the concept of a werewolf is challenged, with them slowly losing their werewolf abilities. The characters are more deeply developed showing signs of withdrawal symptoms and separation anxiety after losing a part of themselves that many have had wired into them since birth, losing the change is like losing a bodily function, you cant function properly and thus the story shows the struggle they have to go through to in dealing with this. Most importantly they have to come to terms with the true demonic nature of their past and if they are ready to accept it.

 yes I put a twist on the typical werewolf stories, instead of concentrating on the beast, my story concentrates on their human aspects  I hope it goes well.

And I can draw quite well, but I would like a really talented person to help me just for one picture,any ideas anyone?.


EDIT: 





> A lot of the time I actually go out and buy books, I have books on the Bible, on Angels and Demons and demonology and religion. I have some books on the FBI, since most of my characters are FBI agents, I have books on monsters, on psychology and several other things.


As I am studying psychology I use that alot in determining how certain characters will act,  yes I read my text books for fun and I am an avid  demonic enthusiast  ,  I even bought "The lesser key of Solomon" look it up, quite demonic if I do say so myself.


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## tgre (Jan 15, 2008)

Go make a Satanic website  XD


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## Einstein (Jan 18, 2008)

Could somebody tell me if they know the public's stand on school shootings, as a whole? Or books about school shootings, to clarify. Is it a taboo subject, or is it safe to write about it and expect people to read it?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 18, 2008)

Yes they are still taboo but I don't think that should stop anyone from writing about them unless you plan on turning it into a teacher at a school or something. There are some times when taboo subjects are all that get a good book read that people would have looked over had it been about anything else.


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## Serp (Jan 19, 2008)

> Me too, I'm not sure how much that counts as actually research unless the psychology of the major characters is one of the major themes of the book. Either way it does help tho.


Yes it is the theme of my stories, "The man within the wolf" of how these people cope with the world they live in and all the psychological problems they each face. 

And to clarify I have no problem with school shootings but I think most will.


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## Tyrael (Jan 19, 2008)

All publicity=good publicity, there have been books written about a lot worse, it depends what you want to do with the story. I would imagine a lot of publishers might be hesistant.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 19, 2008)

Serp said:


> Yes it is the theme of my stories, "The man within the wolf" of how these people cope with the world they live in and all the psychological problems they each face.
> 
> And to clarify I have no problem with school shootings but I think most will.



People have a problem with any idea almost, Passion of the Christ, Da Vinci Code (even though it kind of sucked); they still sold so many copies. So contreversy isn't always a problem, just don't expect it to be the only thing your book has going (like Da Vinci Code).


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## Tyrael (Jan 19, 2008)

Serp said:


> Yes it is the theme of my stories, "The man within the wolf" of how these people cope with the world they live in and all the psychological problems they each face.



Ah, that kinda reminds me of the Fifth Elephant by TP, but all the beast within man is metaphoic as opposed to literal.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> So contreversy isn't always a problem, just don't expect it to be the only thing your book has going (like Da Vinci Code).



Controversy is great for book sales if you do it right: Phillip Pullman is an example, that it does not need to be merely a gimmick.


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## Einstein (Jan 19, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> All publicity=good publicity, there have been books written about a lot worse, it depends what you want to do with the story. *I would imagine a lot of publishers might be hesistant.*


That right there is the problem. I'm worried about writing it because I doubtany publisher would want to take it.. albeit the fact that it has a "happy" ending.


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## Tyrael (Jan 19, 2008)

sundae said:


> That right there is the problem. I'm worried about writing it because I doubtany publisher would want to take it.. albeit the fact that it has a "happy" ending.



I would imagine it varies. To be honest you'd be as well writing into a proper writers magazine or something, 'cause unless there are any agents/publishing staff on here all you will get is our guessing.


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## Einstein (Jan 19, 2008)

True. I'm just concerned because I know back when Battle Royale first came out in Japan, America was trying to get the rights to make an American version, then Columbine happened, and America didn't want to look in BR's direction.

But I think once they learn that there's an underlying point to what I'm writing, and not just endless angry kid-meets-gun action, they'll be slightly more willing to take it. It'll be one of those kind of books with those touchy subject but that really teach you a lesson, or at least that's what I'm aiming for.


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## Tyrael (Jan 19, 2008)

sundae said:


> True. I'm just concerned because I know back when Battle Royale first came out in Japan, America was trying to get the rights to make an American version, then Columbine happened, and America didn't want to look in BR's direction.
> 
> But I think once they learn that there's an underlying point to what I'm writing, and not just endless angry kid-meets-gun action, they'll be slightly more willing to take it. It'll be one of those kind of books with those touchy subject but that really teach you a lesson, or at least that's what I'm aiming for.



It was a film which included visuals scenes of little girls slaughtering each other. Apparently there is an american version being produced regardless as well (they'll probs ruin it).

The type of people that are offended by this thing don't look for anything beyond what they want to see, so don't expect that to save it should controversy occur. Don't expect it to be really all that bad anyway unless it becomes really famous or is grotesque on an unprecedented level.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 19, 2008)

An American version would have sucked balls.


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## Tyrael (Jan 19, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> An American version will suck balls.



Statement amended.



> Following the Virginia Tech massacre in April 2007, Roy Lee claimed that prospects for the remake had been "seriously shaken." While he remained willing to proceed, he stated, "we might be a little more sensitive to some of the issues." The reporting article noted that New Line still had not secured remake rights - their spokeswoman claiming "no news" when asked about progress on any deal



Taken from Wikipedia.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 19, 2008)

I really hope they fucking quit. They'd only turn it into a cheap shockfest. Hollywood doesn't know how to do violence anymore.(Come to think of it did they ever?)


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## Tyrael (Jan 19, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I really hope they fucking quit. They'd only turn it into a cheap shockfest. Hollywood doesn't know how to do violence anymore.(Come to think of it did they ever?)



Me too, though as far as I can see they won't quit, merely tone down the violence 'till the point where they destroy the whole concept.


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## Einstein (Jan 19, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> An American version would have sucked balls.


I completely agree, but the point was that America changed their entire standing on the matter when something happened in real life.

As for the horror, Americans are just soft and dumb. No offense, I'm one too, and I'm guessing those of us here talknig about how soft American horror is, count as exceptions to what I say next. The horror is nothing compared to what they've got for horror in, say, Japan. We even have fruitier commercials. But the main reason is, Americans are stupidasses that will see something on television and desperately want to reenact it. Like that EAT IT LIKE A SNAKE burger king commercial in Japan. We can't have that shit here, because some dumbass will try to swallow an entire burger whilst slithering on the floor. Instead ,we have the stupid secret cameras where they prank people and tell them there's no Whopper.


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## Tyrael (Jan 19, 2008)

sundae said:


> I completely agree, but the point was that America changed their entire standing on the matter when something happened in real life.



You aiming for the american market primarily likes?


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## Einstein (Jan 19, 2008)

I'm in America, so I'll more than likely be dealing with an American publisher, and if America is still having cahoots with school shootings, I don't forsee myself being successful.


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## Tyrael (Jan 19, 2008)

sundae said:


> I'm in America, so I'll more than likely be dealing with an American publisher, and if America is still having cahoots with school shootings, I don't forsee myself being successful.



Ah well, just root around, do some research on other books in the same vein, check to see if there is any well known publishers that have a reputation for the cutting or controversial. All the obvious stuff really.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 19, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> An American version would have sucked balls.



Wow I had no fucking idea you were psychic who would have guessed? 

Nothing bothers me more than people judging shit that doesn't even have a preview yet. 

People talking about how great Japanese horror (BR is NOT horror for one) pisses me off because we get one good trickle down Japanese movie a fucking year and everyone thinks the whole country is geniuses. Its the same for them, they get one good movie from us or somewhere else. If you have the audiences to filter this shit, then you get the best when it gets out of the country. Not to mention that plenty of good shit comes out here. 
And Battle Royal sucked balls, I read part of the book and its way fucking better. 



sundae said:


> I'm in America, so I'll more than likely be dealing with an American publisher, and if America is still having cahoots with school shootings, I don't forsee myself being successful.



Write what you want to write, some publishers like brash stuff, look at Palhinuck? He writes some dirty stuff and gets out there. Don't be afraid of publishers, show them that you're not controlled by controversy, some of them will respect that. Keep looking till you find one.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 19, 2008)

I never said anything about horror. I said Hollywood doesn't do violence well.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 19, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I never said anything about horror. I said Hollywood doesn't do violence well.



I must have read it wrong, but thats an even broader and easier to disprove thing to say. Hollywood is a big place and there are many of good directors.


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## Tyrael (Jan 19, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Wow I had no fucking idea you were psychic who would have guessed?
> 
> Nothing bothers me more than people judging shit that doesn't even have a preview yet.
> 
> ...



Hollywood, when it comes to adapting classic movies, does not tend have a good record, 'specially as it is always mainly a commercial venture and the whole idea of toning it down ignores the main theme of the movie (and book). Chill out man, inevitably we will judge it and the evidence we have does not bode well. Also I happen to love the film, so I hate for it to be remade and not done justice therfore meaning that any who had never heard of the japnese version may be able to dismiss it based on the hollywoodisation. You are right, a lot of good stuff does come out of american.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 19, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Hollywood, when it comes to adapting classic movies, does not tend have a good record, 'specially as it is always mainly a commercial venture and the whole idea of toning it down ignores the main theme of the movie (and book). Chill out man, inevitably we will judge it and the evidence we have does not bode well. Also I happen to love the film, so I hate for it to be remade and not done justice therfore meaning that any who had never heard of the japnese version may be able to dismiss it based on the hollywoodisation. You are right, a lot of good stuff does come out of american.



People need to chill out with the America bashing everywhere, its not like all this shit coming out is that great, horror movies in general are shit, and not scary in the least. 

Furthermore, BR is as overhyped as they come. When I saw it I felt like I did when I saw Akira and IT and all those other overhyped, piece of shit movies based on books that were better. 

Remakes aren't always bad, and examples of some that aren't are easily found. On top of that not every movie translated over loses its luster, not that BR had luster. Making that pile of shit into a decent flick would be hard but it depends on the writing and directing.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 19, 2008)

No one said anything about horror. BR isn't horror.


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## Tyrael (Jan 19, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> People need to chill out with the America bashing everywhere, its not like all this shit coming out is that great, horror movies in general are shit, and not scary in the least.



I see no america bashing in this thread. Horrors do=shit, but I have no idea why you keep bringing them up.



> Furthermore, BR is as overhyped as they come. When I saw it I felt like I did when I saw Akira and IT and all those other overhyped, piece of shit movies based on books that were better.
> 
> Remakes aren't always bad, and examples of some that aren't are easily found. On top of that not every movie translated over loses its luster, not that BR had luster. Making that pile of shit into a decent flick would be hard but it depends on the writing and directing.



Granted, not all are destroyed in the transition, but the majority are and the signs Battle Royale is showing is not good. You are, however, not making a very good case for why Batttle Royale is such a travesty of film making.

Book are 99% better than the novels they are based on imo.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 19, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> No one said anything about horror. BR isn't horror.



Well structured argument, I guess I better back down. (sarcasm)

Instead of picking apart that wee little detail say something back so I can shoot that down too. Or is all this Japan-love going to make you burst in your pants if you say something else? 

I don't see why everyone thinks Japan is so great, there are hundreds of countries all doing things and somehow people act like Japan does it better than anyone else.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 19, 2008)

Now you're making this about countries.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 19, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Now you're making this about countries.



No...you did. 



Lord Yu said:


> An American version would have sucked balls.



Now maybe you'll back off of me next time, see how it feels to have someone harp on your every word and attack your opinions? Remember doing that every time I replied? 

And my attack actually makes sense because you formed your opinion about a movie, that you didn't know anything about other than the fact it was a remake of a Japanese movie.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 19, 2008)

No one was worshiping Japan. We were talking about America's poor record of adaptation. It's not that it's a Japanese movie, it's that it's a foreign movie in general.


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## Shunsuke kiba (Jan 20, 2008)

isnt this thread about novels lol


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## Lord Yu (Jan 20, 2008)

Yes but it's been derailed.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 20, 2008)

Oh Boo Hoo. I think by the grace of God we just might make it. 

Someone just talk about book stuff, its too early in the morning.


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## Einstein (Jan 20, 2008)

What I used as an example turned into a big stupidass argument. Who cares, even if Yu was worshipping Japan? To each his own, no reason to fuss about it. It's honestly not his fault for predicting that BR would not be good in the US, and if you thought it sucked in the first placed, I highly doubt America could make it any better and I don't see how you can. 

But anyways, this is the second I've said something in this thread and people start fighting over it, and the stuff being argued about holds absolutely no value. Maybe we should all grow up, Tyrael aside, and stop fussing over things that hold no meaning simply because you don't care for the person that said it.

But back to actually talking about what this thread was made for: How does everyone feels about swearing _in narrative_, not dialogue. What would you think about someone who did, have you, what did you think, etc.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 20, 2008)

sundae said:


> What I used as an example turned into a big stupidass argument. Who cares, even if Yu was worshipping Japan? To each his own, no reason to fuss about it. It's honestly not his fault for predicting that BR would not be good in the US, and if you thought it sucked in the first placed, I highly doubt America could make it any better and I don't see how you can.
> 
> But anyways, this is the second I've said something in this thread and people start fighting over it, and the stuff being argued about holds absolutely no value. Maybe we should all grow up, Tyrael aside, and stop fussing over things that hold no meaning simply because you don't care for the person that said it.
> 
> But back to actually talking about what this thread was made for: How does everyone feels about swearing _in narrative_, not dialogue. What would you think about someone who did, have you, what did you think, etc.



Your peace keeping efforts will fall on deaf ears, believe me. 

And I don't like it when a narrator swears on a level any higher than damn or Hell UNLESS its a first person story. Actually I will take it as far as saying I hate it when a lot of types of words are used in narratives. Like (excuse the language) when people used to write lemons and use works like pussy or cock in the narrative. It saps the erotic feel out of the whole thing. (at least for me) 

Now, I have even fallen victim to this whole thing where you write like that, and I hated it afterwards. But I stopped doing it years ago.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 20, 2008)

I wasn't worshiping Japan. I just dislike Hollywood's handling of adaptations.

As for cursing in narratives, as with many things, if done right...


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## Einstein (Jan 20, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Now, I have even fallen victim to this whole thing where you write like that, and I hated it afterwards. But I stopped doing it years ago.


I have sworn in my narratives? Or are you saying "you" as in whoever talks like that?



> As for cursing in narratives, as with many things, if done right...


I kind of feel that way, but the only way I myself would use it was if it was a sort-of spinoff from the dialogue. Example:



> "That damn cat scratched up my fucking sofa! You expect me to take care of her again next time you hop on a plane to God-Knows-Where? Next time you dump that thing off at my place because you feel like sightseeing, I'm dumping her off at the pound."
> 
> Sam found it awfully hard to believe that his Damn Cat scratched up his aunt's Fucking Sofa. Puddles never gave him any troubles - maybe scratching up the Fucking Sofa was the Damn Cat's way of saying that his aunt had no business buying the Fucking Sofa, and that she should just use a bed instead.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 20, 2008)

Seems really out of place albeit hilarious.


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## Tyrael (Jan 20, 2008)

sundae said:


> I kind of feel that way, but the only way I myself would use it was if it was a sort-of spinoff from the dialogue. Example:



The example used is good, i think that it works and swearing during narrative can be just part of the overall tone of the piece or as characterisation. So as long as you have thought it through carefully go for it, and turn the pages blue.


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## Einstein (Jan 20, 2008)

> Seems really out of place albeit hilarious.


 I got it from a story of a friend of mine's. The point was not meant necessarily for laughs. I meant it as, I wouldn't use swearing in a narrative, unless I had some excuse, like dialogue, to do so.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 20, 2008)

Well then just hilarious.


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## Einstein (Jan 20, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> The example used is good, i think that it works and swearing during narrative can be just part of the overall tone of the piece or as characterisation. So as long as you have thought it through carefully go for it, and turn the pages blue.


I don't think one should swear in narrative just for the sake of swearing. That's pointless, and since a lot of people assume that those who swear lack a large vocab, I doubt it'd do well for the author's image.


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## Tyrael (Jan 20, 2008)

sundae said:


> I don't think one should swear in narrative just for the sake of swearing. That's pointless, and since a lot of people assume that those who swear lack a large vocab, I doubt it'd do well for the author's image.



I think swearing to create a gritty style could work though, if you are careful. Swearing does have a certain amount of shock factor, use it well and you're onto a winner. 

I think the example you gave works the most when one character is quoting another in an ironic way tohugh.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 20, 2008)

sundae said:


> I have sworn in my narratives? Or are you saying "you" as in whoever talks like that?



I am confused, maybe I just meant you as in who ever, I wasn't directing it at "YOU". 



Tyrael said:


> The example used is good, i think that it works and swearing during narrative can be just part of the overall tone of the piece or as characterisation. So as long as you have thought it through carefully go for it, and turn the pages blue.



It sits really uneasily with me, if I read this in a book on like the first page, I might put it down. 



sundae said:


> I don't think one should swear in narrative just for the sake of swearing. That's pointless, and since a lot of people assume that those who swear lack a large vocab, I doubt it'd do well for the author's image.



Doing anything for the sake of doing it can really damage a story. The character saying fucking sofa, the narrator in 3rd person saying it doesn't serve the purpose because the narrator voice is different.


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## Tyrael (Jan 20, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It sits really uneasily with me, if I read this in a book on like the first page, I might put it down.



If it was just randomly introduced I would have to agree with you, but if it was built up to properly it could just serve as characterisation.



> Doing anything for the sake of doing it can really damage a story. The character saying fucking sofa, the narrator in 3rd person saying it doesn't serve the purpose because the narrator voice is different.



The narrative voice can vary in the amount it can be a cold omniscient voice in the sky or just the continued line of thought of a protagonist. But yeah, swearing for the sake of swearing would be fucking stupid.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 20, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> If it was just randomly introduced I would have to agree with you, but if it was built up to properly it could just serve as characterisation.
> 
> 
> 
> The narrative voice can vary in the amount it can be a cold omniscient voice in the sky or just the continued line of thought of a protagonist. But yeah, swearing for the sake of swearing would be fucking stupid.



Actually the two are different, the omniscient voice is called third person omniscient and the other is called limited third person. Supposedly in modern narration omniscient is the least used and hardest to write.


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## Tyrael (Jan 20, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Actually the two are different, the omniscient voice is called third person omniscient and the other is called limited third person. Supposedly in modern narration omniscient is the least used and hardest to write.



Indeed, but quite alot of the time you find narrative does not tend to fit nicely into either category, hence my former statement. And I do intend to use omniscient 3rd person, for the sheer hell of it, even got a rough story mapped out, 'cept its gonna be saturated with moments of 1st person.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 20, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Indeed, but quite alot of the time you find narrative does not tend to fit nicely into either category, hence my former statement. And I do intend to use omniscient 3rd person, for the sheer hell of it, even got a rough story mapped out, 'cept its gonna be saturated with moments of 1st person.



I never actually have been able to write in two perspectives so far from each other, pretty much first person mixed with anything is off limits to me. There's just something about it.


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## Tyrael (Jan 20, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I never actually have been able to write in two perspectives so far from each other, pretty much first person mixed with anything is off limits to me. There's just something about it.



They won't be intermingled, rather there will be a short 1st person bit at the start of each chpt. the fact they are the two polar opposites of narrative will be why I will be using both-it's all hideously symbolic.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 20, 2008)

I'm experimenting with third person and first person mix because I have some great stuff from the first person version I'd like to keep that only works in first.


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## Tyrael (Jan 20, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm experimenting with third person and first person mix because I have some great stuff from the first person version I'd like to keep that only works in first.



HOLYSHITYUYUORAVATARJUSTMOVED!

But, uh...yeah, I know that feeling as well, some stuff I really need to rework but because I like the writing I don't want to redo it and whenevr I try to edit things it turns out essentially the same as t was before.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 20, 2008)

My avy is animooted.


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## Tyrael (Jan 20, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> My avy is animooted.



I know, it freaked me out when I saw it move out the corner of my eye...didn't know if it was meant to be like that.

Anyway, this takes me full circle to the point I made earlier pertaining to a gentle narrative v cold narrative, which can we do things more things with? (Not talking about the polar extremes, more the overall approach)


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## Lord Yu (Jan 20, 2008)

I like gentle more emotional narrative as more stories focus on character above other things.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 22, 2008)

Looks like I might try to go with first person instead of third in the new story after all, I think that there is something I just like about the first person thing i had going better. That leaves some question as to how I will be doing a lot of things and changes a lot of the stuff that had to do with character selection and the like, but I think that this will work out for the best when its all said and done.

For this next one I think I am going to go with two separate point of views, both first person. One for each chapter. I am not sure how this will work, but I will have to try it out and see. I can't think of another way to write this one.


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## Tyrael (Jan 22, 2008)

I have redone a story 3 times, on the fourth. Would be starting again as well if it was not for the fact that everyone I give it to gives it positive feedback. You got many reactions to your story?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I have redone a story 3 times, on the fourth. Would be starting again as well if it was not for the fact that everyone I give it to gives it positive feedback. You got many reactions to your story?



I have zero, but I hate how I do third person and I hated the direction it was going in. I think I would have much better luck with first person. Granted, I am keeping the old versions in case I feel like trying them again


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## Tyrael (Jan 22, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I have zero, but I hate how I do third person and I hated the direction it was going in. I think I would have much better luck with first person. Granted, I am keeping the old versions in case I feel like trying them again



If you can make it work for you and hate your 3rd person go for 1st. It's your story, you're the only one who can tell it properly (that sounds so cheesy). The problem is, recognising if you don't like something 'cause it doesn't match a vision you have for it that might not feasible, or whether you hate it 'cause it's rubbish.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> If you can make it work for you and hate your 3rd person go for 1st. It's your story, you're the only one who can tell it properly (that sounds so cheesy). The problem is, recognising if you don't like something 'cause it doesn't match a vision you have for it that might not feasible, or whether you hate it 'cause it's rubbish.



Well it feels like when I try to do third, its very artificial and badly written to me, my first seems to be so much more what this story needs to work. Not too mention I think the story gets too busy in third. 

Here is the deal though, I have decided I want to try something not often done, two first person perspectives, from two separate characters, who will in this story never meet.


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## Tyrael (Jan 22, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well it feels like when I try to do third, its very artificial and badly written to me, my first seems to be so much more what this story needs to work. Not too mention I think the story gets too busy in third.
> 
> Here is the deal though, I have decided I want to try something not often done, two first person perspectives, from two separate characters, who will in this story never meet.



You mentioned earlier going for the two 1st person approach, I take it you are going to do a little sub-heading at the start of each chpt, telling you which character the perspective is from.

The only problem I have with first is that it is more guiding than narrative should be; of course this varies between stories. Sometimes it is entirely appropriate, a really unconvential thing to do would tell it in 1st but have five or six characters whose perspective you tell it from, I think two sounds like it could work.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> You mentioned earlier going for the two 1st person approach, I take it you are going to do a little sub-heading at the start of each chpt, telling you which character the perspective is from.
> 
> The only problem I have with first is that it is more guiding than narrative should be; of course this varies between stories. Sometimes it is entirely appropriate, a really unconvential thing to do would tell it in 1st but have five or six characters whose perspective you tell it from, I think two sounds like it could work.



Well I considered this idea a while ago, with like four characters, I was going to do a twenty four chapter story, one for each hour of the day, alternating between characters, and what they did that hour. But I couldn't make it work. 

But there will be a sub heading, and the epilogue is third person.


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## Tyrael (Jan 22, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well I considered this idea a while ago, with like four characters, I was going to do a twenty four chapter story, one for each hour of the day, alternating between characters, and what they did that hour. But I couldn't make it work.
> 
> But there will be a sub heading, and the epilogue is third person.



That sounds like a very interesting idea, pity you had to scrap it. Hopefully oyu were able to glean something from the amount you've already written. (did you say 55 pages earlier?)


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> That sounds like a very interesting idea, pity you had to scrap it. Hopefully oyu were able to glean something from the amount you've already written. (did you say 55 pages earlier?)



No the twenty four hour thing was an older story, the one that got fifty five pages was the one about the President getting kissed. Only thing now is I have picked one character for POV, I could pick one of two for the second, but should I pick the girl or guy?


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## Tyrael (Jan 22, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> No the twenty four hour thing was an older story, the one that got fifty five pages was the one about the President getting kissed. Only thing now is I have picked one character for POV, I could pick one of two for the second, but should I pick the girl or guy?



The one which would suit the story best.

Yeah, confusion, earlier the 1st sentence was 24hr thing, but the rest was to do with thething ur rewritin.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> The one which would suit the story best.
> 
> Yeah, confusion, earlier the 1st sentence was 24hr thing, but the rest was to do with thething ur rewritin.



Oh I see. Yeah I think I might go with the female out of the two to balance off the other male narrator. Plus she is nice to write.


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## Tyrael (Jan 22, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Oh I see. Yeah I think I might go with the female out of the two to balance off the other male narrator. *Plus she is nice to write*.



Can make a world of difference sometimes.

I'm kinda wondering now about how my current project would look in 1st, problem is if I am to keep consistent to character I would have to have huge overhauls in my basic style between characters for it even to work. So I think I'll leave it in 3rd.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Can make a world of difference sometimes.
> 
> I'm kinda wondering now about how my current project would look in 1st, problem is if I am to keep consistent to character I would have to have huge overhauls in my basic style between characters for it even to work. So I think I'll leave it in 3rd.



That is the thing, I have written about her before and she's fast becoming my favorite but I haven't written her POV in a full sized story yet either. I even wrote some back story for her in short little pieces. So I think I might just try to do this with her.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 22, 2008)

Link removed
This post made me think about my writing skills. My style I'll admit, rather simplistic, as I don't read books often, my use of language seems kind of commonplace. I don't know what I'm trying to say or what I could acheive from stating this.


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## Einstein (Jan 22, 2008)

Are you referring to how he said that Rowling's writing style was _too_ simple, and wondering if that may be a problem for you and could furthermore affect the sales of your novel(s)?

Or did his post just remind you how little you make long, drawn out posts?


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## Lord Yu (Jan 22, 2008)

The idea of me pitching my book to a publisher is still way up in the air. I'm just concerned with my abilities as a writer. I couldn't give two shits about sales figures.


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## Einstein (Jan 22, 2008)

IMO, I think having a simplistic style is just fine, hence Rowling's HP series has a much bigger fanbase than HDM. Simple = people know what you mean without having to look up every other word in a dictionary, which I admit is hella annoying 

At the same time, you don't want everything you write to sound like it could go in a children's book, but I'm pretty sure you know this. For myself, I try to write where the dumbest person I know can read it and enjoy, but the smartest person I know can read it and not get bored because of the simplicity.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 22, 2008)

I tend to write without really thinking about the reader. For the most part these days I've been writing just to hammer out the plot before it cools.


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## Einstein (Jan 22, 2008)

Then maybe you can go back and revise once you are done, thinking about the reader? Maybe I think about the reader too much, which is why I can't ever finish anything that's more than a short story.


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## Tyrael (Jan 23, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> FT 71 raw
> This post made me think about my writing skills. My style I'll admit, rather simplistic, as I don't read books often, my use of language seems kind of commonplace. I don't know what I'm trying to say or what I could acheive from stating this.



I wouldn't worry too much about that unless your aiming to been seen amonst the literary elite. Although you should strive for sophistication you can still be simple qhile going about it. And yes, that sentence does make sense, in a crude kinda way. The best thing you can look to achieve is individuality.



Lord Yu said:


> I tend to write without really thinking about the reader. For the most part these days I've been writing just to hammer out the plot before it cools.



Me too, fuck those whiny scumbags.

Lol, seriously though, Sundae's advice on that sounds the best:



sundae said:


> Then maybe you can go back and revise once you are done, thinking about the reader? Maybe I think about the reader too much, which is why I can't ever finish anything that's more than a short story.






sundae said:


> At the same time, you don't want everything you write to sound like it could go in a children's book, but I'm pretty sure you know this. For myself, I try to write where the dumbest person I know can read it and enjoy, but the smartest person I know can read it and not get bored because of the simplicity.



Very, very good philosophy.


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## mr_yenz (Jan 24, 2008)

I'm currently attempting to write a story about a group of travellers in an alternate universe... it's not really action-packed or anything but it focuses on the characters and their world surroundings.

There's also another story I have planned out, but that would work better as a comic...

It's difficult though, I'm more creative thinking up plots and characters than actually writing the story. I also get sick of some of my characters quite easily so I don't focus very well. >____>;;


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 24, 2008)

Someone asked about the media response to books about school shooting or something...


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## Tyrael (Jan 25, 2008)

What's this I hear about entering the FF next week CTK?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 26, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> What's this I hear about entering the FF next week CTK?



If I like the category, I might, right now I am trying to see if I want to write something here before I go to bed. I am thinking about it because I kind of like the teenage relationships that I have going on in the story and I think that their relationships could branch off into a short side series.


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## Tyrael (Jan 26, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> If I like the category, I might, right now I am trying to see if I want to write something here before I go to bed. I am thinking about it because I kind of like the teenage relationships that I have going on in the story and I think that their relationships could branch off into a short side series.



Using those relationships to put characters at odds with each other is always a fun thing to do. Angst maybe overused in certain styles but it can make for very good reading if it is done properly. I'm currently 2/3rds through my project and struggling with part 5. I want to have this damn thing finished by the end of march (hopefully way before).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 26, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Using those relationships to put characters at odds with each other is always a fun thing to do. Angst maybe overused in certain styles but it can make for very good reading if it is done properly. I'm currently 2/3rds through my project and struggling with part 5. I want to have this damn thing finished by the end of march (hopefully way before).



Well I posted one of the short pieces here, its called Criminal.

*Edit: *Oh and speaking of criminal, one of the characters from the story just got drawn for me, here she is:


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## Tyrael (Jan 28, 2008)

This thread is actually less active than a few others on this forum, never thought I would see the day. But anyway, what do people about the need to, to a certain extent, conform within a genre?


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## Lord Yu (Jan 28, 2008)

Fuck genres! They're all horse shit!


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## Tyrael (Jan 28, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Fuck genres! They're all horse shit!



Lol, I like that attitude, and agree, to an extent. I feel that sometimes you have to be careful between breaking boundaries and just writing shit.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 28, 2008)

I don't think in the terms of genres. I think in terms of lol this idea sounds fun.


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## Tyrael (Jan 28, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I don't think in the terms of genres. I think in terms of lol this idea sounds fun.



I can't help but think about genres, although the piece I am writing has turned into a slightly different one than I thought it was-heck liking an idea that works is all that should matter.  Unfortunately, for me, this is not the case.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 28, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> This thread is actually less active than a few others on this forum, never thought I would see the day. But anyway, what do people about the need to, to a certain extent, conform within a genre?



People like to put things in categories, to group like things together. I think that in any genre you can find good pieces of writing and I don't mind genres. It also helps you to tell what kind of people would buy a book if you were to write it. Who you want you're target audience to be and all that.

At the same time I like the idea of making someone read outside of their genre, making them look at something they wouldn't have thought they would like. 

I think that the nonconformist can sometimes write a book that doesn't know what it wants to be and that confuses the reader and author.


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## _allismine_ (Jan 29, 2008)

I don't really think about conforming to a genre while I'm writing, but I do keep the readers seriously in mind while I write the chapter. I read the same chapters over and over again, thinking, "If I was a normal reader, what would I think of this plotline / character? What would I, from a fanfiction writer's point of view, try to do to improve on this particular relationship? Is this person really necessary to the story?"

I love creating new characters, but I want each of them to have equal levels of purpose and development, you know? I find this difficult to do at times, especially while writing a character I completely despise the personality of but need to keep said personality for the sake of their development later on.

I would never compromise my storyline for the sake of crowd-pleasing, but I believe it's good to think of a story from a reader's point of view for purposes of quality control.


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## Tyrael (Jan 29, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> People like to put things in categories, to group like things together.
> 
> I think that the nonconformist can sometimes write a book that doesn't know what it wants to be and that confuses the reader and author.



Both of these points are very true.



_allismine_ said:


> I would never compromise my storyline for the sake of crowd-pleasing, but I believe it's good to think of a story from a reader's point of view for purposes of quality control.



I try to keep my writing within the genre enough to be enjoyable and outside of the genre enough to be different and helping the genre progress.


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## crazymtf (Jan 29, 2008)

Been writing a story for awhile *This like the 8th one i made up, i think i really wanna focus on this one, love writing the characters/events* Got only 12-13 chapters since i got finals and stuff last term i stopped and i just started picking it up again. 

Anyway my point is i want to just post one chapter *Extremely short, first chapter* Just to see if people like it. I want to get people attention for the first chapter and i want it short. If you have any recommendations by all means please tell. Thanks for whoever has the time to check it out, means alot and i'll give rep of course. *back to final studying * 

Never mind it's fucking up my writing and it looks like shit. Any way i can post it and it not look like it's all just bunched together?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 29, 2008)

crazymtf said:


> Been writing a story for awhile *This like the 8th one i made up, i think i really wanna focus on this one, love writing the characters/events* Got only 12-13 chapters since i got finals and stuff last term i stopped and i just started picking it up again.
> 
> Anyway my point is i want to just post one chapter *Extremely short, first chapter* Just to see if people like it. I want to get people attention for the first chapter and i want it short. If you have any recommendations by all means please tell. Thanks for whoever has the time to check it out, means alot and i'll give rep of course. *back to final studying *
> 
> Never mind it's fucking up my writing and it looks like shit. Any way i can post it and it not look like it's all just bunched together?



You have to go in and post it where every paragraph has a space between it.


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## crazymtf (Jan 29, 2008)

Ok hopefully it comes out well. If not copy and paste it i guess in word or notepad and separate it 


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Chapter One ? Out*

At this point in time every corridor showed a resemblance to the next. My clothes reeked of vomit and crap from all the testing they put me though. My body ached everywhere; it felt as if I could collapse at any moment. 

	?Hey stay with me!? Our leader grabbed my shirt and slammed me into the wall. ?We don?t have time to screw around and no time to get sick. Suck it up!? He roared in my ears but I wasn?t even listening. 

The alarm with the shrill chalk board sound wasn?t helping either. My ears probably would have been bleeding if it wasn?t for my motives to get out of this place. ?We have to move quicker!? My partner said behind me. She was probably more scared then me, they?d kill her if she was caught. 

	We stopped at the corner. The leader looked around it while I took a deep breath. It was almost time to use it but I didn?t know if I could. My strength felt completely dried up but most days I felt I couldn?t even move and I did. I wasn?t about to get killed after all this. Not after all the shit I?ve been through! I told myself to keep moving cause there?s no turning back, this is it. 

 	Just as we turned to the final hallway the guards seemed to realize we were almost at the exist and gathered up. It?s only three of them which meant nothing to our leader. He put his hand forward, roared with anger, and the guards split up and slammed into the side of the wall. It was a strong force splitting them apart and slamming them into the wall. One of the guards even split the back of his head open, blood staying behind as he slid down the wall. 

	As we pushed though the exist doors a fresh breathe of air leapt into me and I grasped that very moment as the best I?d ever had. The fresh air pierced through my eager lungs. Most of you won?t understand this but this was the best feeling I?ve ever felt. 

	Another guard appeared behind us and grasped my back. I retaliated with everything I had and swung as hard as I could. I knocked the guard on his back with everything I had. I then bent down and threw every punch I could screaming ?Die you piece of shit? over and over again till the blood wasn?t just from his forehead but from my knuckles. 

	My leader grabbed me from the shoulder and pushed me up. I was breathing heavy, looked like I was dead, but I never felt so alive in my life. He smiled as if he wanted me to attack that guard. ?Save that anger. We?re gonna need it? As he spoke he already looked forward and began traveling through the one way exist out of this place. 

	We were free of the place but not from the company itself. We needed to cover as much ground as possible in the next fifteen minutes before we have hundreds of guards and such on us. Even with all that in mind the only thing I could think of was freedom, and how I finally achieved it.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 29, 2008)

For 305047th time, I have an idea of an ending.


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## Gaara of the Sand (Jan 29, 2008)

I'm currently trying to write two books

1) This one I have the story in me but I don't really have a computer to write it on ATM (and I'm not gonna handwrite no-way no-how)

2) the other one I have the basic guidelines but I wanna make it up as I go


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 30, 2008)

Just wanted to share a little tidbit that I read in a book at Barnes and Noble the other day, I am thinking about buying it. But there was this chapter that said "Never pass up an opportunity for trouble," basically what the author is saying is that when writing, conflict is what keeps the story interesting. 

He went on to say that down time for too long makes the story die and the reader lose interest. Who wants to read a story where all of the characters are content. I agree with this pretty strongly. 

And I think I am doing a good job of not letting the story die.


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## crazymtf (Jan 30, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Just wanted to share a little tidbit that I read in a book at Barnes and Noble the other day, I am thinking about buying it. But there was this chapter that said "Never pass up an opportunity for trouble," basically what the author is saying is that when writing, conflict is what keeps the story interesting.
> 
> He went on to say that down time for too long makes the story die and the reader lose interest. Who wants to read a story where all of the characters are content. I agree with this pretty strongly.
> 
> And I think I am doing a good job of not letting the story die.



You got a insert i could read? I'd like to check it out if you don't mind. If not it's all good i know some people keep it private and for good reason.


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## Tyrael (Jan 30, 2008)

crazymtf said:


> You got a insert i could read? I'd like to check it out if you don't mind. If not it's all good i know some people keep it private and for good reason.



He's already put 2 mini stories that are derivative of the over-arching story into 2 threads (criminal and Last Night).


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## crazymtf (Jan 30, 2008)

Sorry don't mean to be a ass but can someone put em here, like just copy it and post it again, i can't search right now. Or just give me the page, that'll be cool.


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## Tyrael (Jan 30, 2008)

crazymtf said:


> Sorry don't mean to be a ass but can someone put em here, like just copy it and post it again, i can't search right now. Or just give me the page, that'll be cool.



It's kl, both are currently on the first page.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 30, 2008)

crazymtf said:


> You got a insert i could read? I'd like to check it out if you don't mind. If not it's all good i know some people keep it private and for good reason.





crazymtf said:


> Sorry don't mean to be a ass but can someone put em here, like just copy it and post it again, i can't search right now. Or just give me the page, that'll be cool.



It's alright man, not many people really go out into the literature department, I usually just check this thread. But I have several little snipets posted here and there, some of my favorite aren't even posted here I don't think or if they are they are pages and pages back. One of my favorites is a chapter from the last large story I finished where a character is talking to a priest, but I have several fights and the like I could post too.


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## crazymtf (Jan 30, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It's alright man, not many people really go out into the literature department, I usually just check this thread. But I have several little snipets posted here and there, some of my favorite aren't even posted here I don't think or if they are they are pages and pages back. One of my favorites is a chapter from the last large story I finished where a character is talking to a priest, but I have several fights and the like I could post too.



Please do. Tomorrow night i'll probably look back on the pages and check out your snipets


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 31, 2008)

crazymtf said:


> Please do. Tomorrow night i'll probably look back on the pages and check out your snipets



This thread generally isn't fast moving so it shouldn't be too far along by the time you get back. But I will post some stuff here, I'll try to make it some new stuff with that said. 

Well here we go. 


*Spoiler*: __ 




              Rain trickled down between the cracks in the rubble and over the exposed parts of my body. My hair, my clothes, my face and body; they were soaked. I lifted my head slowly and I found that I could barely move. Somewhere off in the distance there was the sound of thunder. 


            Light footsteps came closer and I finally managed to pick up my head, ?Who?s?there??


            I could see where Edward lay, Dee was off to one side of him. Then there was this man, standing off to the side of Edward. He was tall with a slender face with strong cheekbones, his eyes were like dark holes right above them. He wore a wide brimmed hat. The rain collected on the hat and spilled over the edges of the brim. 


            His long blonde hair was soaked and stuck down to the back of his long leather jacket. The man turned and looked out across the expanse that we all lay in. His motions were clean and smooth, never stopping. Now he started towards where I lay, his boots splashing slightly. 


            Now he took care to step over any and everything. He walked right up to me and looked down. His gaze was cold and piercing, like he stared through me. That was when he removed his hat, and his hair dripped water down onto my face. With a quick motion he flipped his hand back through his hair and dropped his hat down onto the ground near me. 


            He kicked me hard in the chest and I tensed up shutting my eyes in pain. He let out a short scoffing laugh, ?Pathetic,? he uttered and I could hear him turn and walk away.





*Spoiler*: __ 



  Looting had become the law of the land. Dee and I ate prepackaged sandwiches from a convenience store that had been just a little up the road. I had a surprisingly tasty Rub?n and she got what looked to be tuna. After we finished those, binged on bags of chips and free twenty ounces of soda we just took a rest sitting out by the gas pumps.


            She seemed to still have room for more, she had grabbed a Miller High Life out of the cooler and was sitting drinking it with her boots propped out in front of her. I glanced over at her. This girl was so odd and yet she seemed innocent and fragile enough. But then it hit me.


            ?That was a good act you put up back there?? I said suddenly.


            ?What?? she asked.


            ?Tell me, Dee, where did you first see a demon?? I asked.


            She lowered her beer, her purple eyes locked with mine, ?How did you??


            ?Come on, you see something like that and act scared for a second, but you never questioned it,? I said. I was stressed earlier but my analytical skill had returned.


            She smiled at me nervously, ?You?re as smart as you are pretty,? she said, her eyes lowered now, ?Ten years ago demons killed my mom and dad?I try to tell myself that if I find and kill enough of them??


            ?Its too dangerous for a girl your age!? I suddenly said, ?you?re only a little older than my own daughter.? 


            She rolled her eyes, ?I?ve gotten good at it,? she said, ?I?ve got my track record and what not.?


            ?You?re not even armed?? I said pointing down at her.


            She took a big swig of her beer and then held up her fists as if she were ready to fight, ?Got my mitts, don?t I??


            I had to laugh at her, ?You know, you?re a cool kid.?


            ?Thanks Miss C,? she replied.


            I stood up, ?That?s Mrs., I?m married remember.?


            She got up behind me and slammed her bottle down on the ground breaking it into pieces, ?Now that all of that is out in the open I have some skills that might prove useful.?


            ?Like?? I asked.


            She pointed to a motorcycle out across the way, just at the edge of the sidewalk and the edge of the white florescent light from the gas station cover, ?I can hot wire that?and if you can work the pump inside?gas is free.?


            By the time we got the bike started it had been another fifteen minutes, Dee stood off to the side of it, ?God, listen to this thing purr,? she turned back to me, ?Bikes are so sexy??


            ?What are you?? I asked, ?In heat? Get on, I can?t drive this thing!?


            Dee climbed on the front, ?With this we can find your friends in no time.?


            I climbed on the back and wrapped my arms around her waist, I had to admit that Dee was becoming more and more useful. And this definitely beat the Hell out of being alone.


            On the back of that bike as we wove between the stalled cars and Dee?s dark curls whipped at my face I could smell the coconut shampoo, Justin and Ashley hated coconut?that smell reminded me of them, and consequently of Penny. And that made me miss home that much more.






*Spoiler*: __ 



  I nodded and jumped a little fence that decorated a story front. I was careful this time, the last time I had jumped I fell down a well. 


            I moved across the sidewalk into the grass and I froze just as I caught sight of it. A large light, the kind one would expect to find at a stadium lit this large grassy field. All around the light were various animals, I lowered my gun, ?My God, why did they come here.? 


            Dee called from behind me, ?What is it?? 


            I wanted to warn her, the animals weren?t just laying there or standing around, they were on the ground, most of them not moving, about three struggling to force out their last breaths. All of them were covered in boils; big, pink and splotchy. 


            I didn?t speak now, I walked out into the field. One of them ceased breathing as I passed it, its fearful eyes glared up at me with a madness that only death can stir. 


            I walked where the last two were moving, a doe and a wolf cub. Their bodies writhed in pain and at that moment I felt this eerie sense of understanding. I knew what happened or rather I knew what the thought happened. 


            I thought of my daughter, her in that hospital bed lost in her own thoughts and memories. A wanderer of her minds pastures until someone came to her rescue. I thought of the right thing to do and I thought of what these animals wanted, what they needed, and what any humane person would do for them.


            Dee called out, ?Holy shit,? I turned to see her on the edge of the field looking out at the death that lay before us on the ground. 


            I spoke softly, a salty tear slipped its way into my mouth, ?This isn?t just a random occurrence; those people vanishing, the phone not working and the death of those animals?three points form a line.?


            ?But, where does the line lead, what does it mean?? she asked.


            I looked down at the animals, ?I don?t know.? I took my thumb and flicked the safety off the gun. I lowered the Desert Eagle towards the head of the doe, ?I?ll make it quick?? I tightened my finger around the trigger and the gun resounded its one note hymn. At this range the deer?s head was smashed into the ground on impact. 


            Without thinking about the impact that had, or bullet ricochets or critical bone hits I turned to the wolf pup on the ground, I closed my eyes, its boil covered face imprinted in my mind. I don?t remember pulling the trigger, but I heard the sound. And then I felt something on my boot. 


            I half expected it to be part of the wolf, but it was just a clump of dirt where the bullet had gone in. The wolf was no where to be found. I looked back at Dee and she just watched me. 




I think that should do it for now, three sizable entries from the same story, tell me what you think.


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## Gaara of the Sand (Jan 31, 2008)

very nice
I like it


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks, I honestly didn't think anyone would be around to read it tonight!


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## Lord Yu (Jan 31, 2008)

I'm sorry but this is not the thread to post that.


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## Tyrael (Jan 31, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm sorry but this is not the thread to post that.



I agree, start a new thread called "bad fanfic" or something like that. I'm sure there is a part of this forum dedicated to fanfic anyway.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> This thread generally isn't fast moving so it shouldn't be too far along by the time you get back. But I will post some stuff here, I'll try to make it some new stuff with that said.
> 
> Well here we go.
> 
> ...



I've read the first one and I'm hooked. Good job, I'll get around to reading the others later (probably), any criticisms i could make would only be a matter of taste so they feel kinda thin.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 31, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I've read the first one and I'm hooked. Good job, I'll get around to reading the others later (probably), any criticisms i could make would only be a matter of taste so they feel kinda thin.



Well remember that these are pulled from the middle of like an 80 page story, so they're not going to make all that much sense, in the first one though I think I need some transition into the kick, looking over it, it seems to abrupt.


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## crazymtf (Jan 31, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> This thread generally isn't fast moving so it shouldn't be too far along by the time you get back. But I will post some stuff here, I'll try to make it some new stuff with that said.
> 
> Well here we go.
> 
> ...



First and second are good though probably better when i read it inside the story but the third...i really wanna read the whole thing now  I love books where things go crazy. That wolf scene at the end, nice job


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## Tyrael (Jan 31, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well remember that these are pulled from the middle of like an 80 page story, so they're not going to make all that much sense, in the first one though I think I need some transition into the kick, looking over it, it seems to abrupt.



I always hesitate to question others plps pacing 'cause mine just keeps getting worse.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 31, 2008)

Interesting work CTK.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 31, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I always hesitate to question others plps pacing 'cause mine just keeps getting worse.



Lol, yeah I need to fix it thought like I said. 



crazymtf said:


> First and second are good though probably better when i read it inside the story but the third...i really wanna read the whole thing now  I love books where things go crazy. That wolf scene at the end, nice job



Thanks, yeah I actually forgot to have that pan out at the end and had to go back and fix it. Sundae (the members) has read all of this story. 



Lord Yu said:


> Interesting work CTK.



Thanks, although the more I look the more I see things I might go back and change a little here and there. I guess thats how it is.


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## Last leaf village ninja (Jan 31, 2008)

Even though I read them earlier today, I like ya writin CTK! Just wanted ta say it as I kinda felt stupid for not commentin on it afta readin it.

Don't you dare stop writin! Keep it up.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 31, 2008)

Thanks, by the way, I just got done coloring a picture of the protagonist from the story snipets above (the speaker), this is her. 

​


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## crazymtf (Feb 1, 2008)

Very cool, who did it?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 1, 2008)

crazymtf said:


> Very cool, who did it?



This girl named Akiko on deviantart, she is pretty much becoming my official character artist, although a few others have tried their hand at it too.


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## crazymtf (Feb 2, 2008)

Nice, i like i like 

If you guys don't mind can you just check out short chapter? It's less then a page, i wanted it that way to get people right into the story. If you can just give me any kind of insight that would be great 


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Chapter One ? Out*


	At this point in time every corridor showed a resemblance to the next. My clothes reeked of vomit and shit from all the testing they put me though. My body ached everywhere; it felt as if I could collapse at any moment. 

	?Hey stay with me!? Our leader grabbed my shirt by it's collar and slammed me into the wall. ?We don?t have time to screw around and no time to get sick. Suck it up!? He roared in my ears but I wasn?t listening. 

The alarm with the shrill chalk board sound wasn?t helping either. My ears probably would have been bleeding if it wasn?t for my motives to get out of this place. ?We have to move quicker!? My partner said behind me. She was probably more scared then me, they?d kill her if she was caught. 

	We stopped at the corner. The leader looked around it while I took a deep breath. It was almost time to use it but I didn?t know if I could. My strength felt completely dried up but most days I felt I couldn?t even move and I did. I wasn?t about to get killed after all this. Not after all the shit I?ve been through. I told myself to keep moving cause there?s no turning back, this is it.

 	Just as we turned to the final hallway the guards seemed to realize we were almost at the exist and gathered up. It?s only three of them which meant nothing to our leader. He put his hand forward, roared with anger, and the guards split up and slammed into the side of the wall. It was a strong force splitting them apart and slamming them into the wall. One of the guards even split the back of his head open, blood staying behind as he slid down the wall.

	As we pushed though the exist doors a fresh breathe of air leapt into me and I grasped that very moment as the best I?d ever had. The fresh air pierced through my eager lungs. Most of you won?t understand this but this was the best feeling I?ve ever felt. 

	Another guard appeared behind us and grasped my back. I retaliated with everything I had and swung as hard as I could. I knocked the guard on his back with everything I had. I then bent down and threw every punch I could screaming ?Die! Die! Die!? over and over again till the blood wasn?t just from his forehead but from my knuckles. 

	My leader grabbed me from the shoulder and pushed me up. I was breathing heavy, looked like I was dead, but I never felt so alive in my life. He smiled as if he wanted me to attack that guard. ?Save that anger. We?re gonna need it? As he spoke he already looked forward and began traveling through the one way exist out of this place. 

	We were free of the place but not from the hellhole itself. We needed to cover as much ground as possible in the next fifteen minutes before we have hundreds of guards and such on us. Even with all that in mind the only thing I could think of was freedom, and how I finally achieved it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 2, 2008)

I just got home from the club, I will have to read it tomorrow after work...gotta be up in less than five hours.


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## crazymtf (Feb 2, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I just got home from the club, I will have to read it tomorrow after work...gotta be up in less than five hours.



No problem, thanks


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## Tyrael (Feb 2, 2008)

mtf, that's a really solid foundation. Here we go: 

Firstly you need to correct the small amount of grammatical errors punctuating the piece, as they really stand out. Once the basics are perfect should you look at the content.

I think imagery is also much needed for the type of piece you are writing-the description of the emotions could be much more potent if coupled with some emotive descriptions of the corridors.

Finally it is way too short-although if you balance that well with the chapters after it that could potentially work. Pacing is a bitch.

There is some vague advice, take it or leave it-remember not all criticism is necessary valid.


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## Einstein (Feb 2, 2008)

I completely agree with the grammatical errors, and if nothing else someone criticizes you on is valid, grammar is, provided you didn't do it on purpose (as in for dialogue).

I as well thought that was way too short. It seems to me that they got out there too fast. Maybe you could write in more obstacles, or tell us what they were doing before they made the escape. Something, to fill the space. I don't have a problem with short chapters, but in your case, I feel that there isn't enough here.


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## crazymtf (Feb 2, 2008)

Gotcha, thanks guys  Yeah i know about the grammatical errors, i really have a problem with those. I need a editor bad  

As for it being short as i look over it i agree it might be to short. I kinda wanted it to be fast paced just to get people into it then go back to how it started but i think i see what you guys mean. To short. Maybe I'll try making it longer. Thanks against though for the advice


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## Einstein (Feb 2, 2008)

No problemo [;

To help you with making things seem fast paced, write in short sentences. You can still write a lot, but the shorter the sentence is, the faster it seems like time is going. Of course, you only want to use this during the escape or other fast, dramatic instances. And it's okay if you want to go back and tell about it in the next chapter, but you started with them going down a hall. Maybe you could start _as soon as they start breaking out_? It'll add to length, without really telling that much.

It's just a thought, though.


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## Tyrael (Feb 2, 2008)

crazymtf said:


> Gotcha, thanks guys  Yeah i know about the grammatical errors, i really have a problem with those. I need a editor bad
> 
> As for it being short as i look over it i agree it might be to short. I kinda wanted it to be fast paced just to get people into it then go back to how it started but i think i see what you guys mean. To short. Maybe I'll try making it longer. Thanks against though for the advice



Edit your own peices, it'll help your grammar. As I have already heavily stressed I am no good at pacing, but as sundae said sentence structure is what will really equates to fast pace. Short sentences or heavily broken up sentences do the trick, although with the latter it is very easy to get things feeling confused. In fact, merely using words which connote speed can lead to this so, just think about your work. Add more description and imagery, plus give some ambiguous hints towards the future to hook the people.

I'm in a very critical mood today; in conclusion-correct grammar first.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 2, 2008)

crazymtf said:


> Nice, i like i like
> 
> If you guys don't mind can you just check out short chapter? It's less then a page, i wanted it that way to get people right into the story. If you can just give me any kind of insight that would be great
> 
> ...



Overall, I would say good, but you might need to add some description to some of the actions that are taken. Even better if you can show the things were done with the tone of the story and the diction. You've got to test and find the right level of description, but if you try, you're sure to come across it sooner or later.


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## Tyrael (Feb 5, 2008)

Here's a DDL Mirror for chapter 28 by Franky-House

Review biatchs.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 5, 2008)

I have restarted my third story once more, this time opting to use one POV and to use some of the stuff from my previous attempts for a later story. For right now I am taking a deviation from the normal enemies of my story to deal with a Human enemy.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 5, 2008)

I'm trying to get my production rate up again. I don't have writers block I just have impatience and perfectionism.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 6, 2008)

Anyone want to take a look at *this* for me?


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## Tyrael (Feb 6, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm trying to get my production rate up again. I don't have writers block I just have impatience and perfectionism.



Exactly the same, my story is reaching its final stages tho, 96 pages of size ten text atm. Not a huge amount but the novel will be fairly short.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Anyone want to take a look at *this* for me?



Done, comments in the thread, it's a good intro.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 6, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Exactly the same, my story is reaching its final stages tho, 96 pages of size ten text atm. Not a huge amount but the novel will be fairly short.
> 
> 
> 
> Done, comments in the thread, it's a good intro.



Thanks, I am reworking it right now though, making the fight a lot more heated, I am up to 2,000 words already.


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## Tyrael (Feb 7, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Thanks, I am reworking it right now though, making the fight a lot more heated, I am up to 2,000 words already.



Nice stuff, i take it you will update the thread once you've finished.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 7, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Nice stuff, i take it you will update the thread once you've finished.



Posting it now...


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## Tyrael (Feb 7, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Posting it now...



Woo! I should be going to bed, but I might give it a quick look over.


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## Robotkiller (Feb 7, 2008)

Man 'o man am I having trouble getting motivated to write anything. I think I'll seclude myself this weekend and really get some ideas from mind to pen.

One more thing, I swear to myself that I'm going to sit down and finish this flashfic. I don't care if it takes me an hour. This thing is getting done!

btw, does anyone besides me have trouble with writing bustling city-scapes?


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## _allismine_ (Feb 7, 2008)

Hahaha! Good luck with that! I know how frustrating it must be; I had to force it out of my brain last night.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 7, 2008)

Robotkiller said:


> Man 'o man am I having trouble getting motivated to write anything. I think I'll seclude myself this weekend and really get some ideas from mind to pen.
> 
> One more thing, I swear to myself that I'm going to sit down and finish this flashfic. I don't care if it takes me an hour. This thing is getting done!



I made a goal to be done with this story by the end of Lent. 



Tyrael said:


> Woo! I should be going to bed, but I might give it a quick look over.



Its so large I had to post in three parts...


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## Robotkiller (Feb 7, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I made a goal to be done with this story by the end of Lent.



That's actually a really good idea! I think I'll take a leaf out of your book, if you don't mind? Deadlines seem to give me the kick in the pants that I need to get to work.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 7, 2008)

Robotkiller said:


> That's actually a really good idea! I think I'll take a leaf out of your book, if you don't mind? Deadlines seem to give me the kick in the pants that I need to get to work.



Last time I made a writing deadline I got it done in less than a quarter of the time I alloted myself. I don't care if you take the idea, I would encourage more people to do it.


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## Tyrael (Feb 7, 2008)

Robotkiller said:


> Man 'o man am I having trouble getting motivated to write anything. I think I'll seclude myself this weekend and really get some ideas from mind to pen.
> 
> One more thing, I swear to myself that I'm going to sit down and finish this flashfic. I don't care if it takes me an hour. This thing is getting done!
> 
> btw, does anyone besides me have trouble with writing bustling city-scapes?



Actually, oddly, I reckon that's one of the easiest settings to describe. 

I'm going through a very low point as well, and I look forward to reading your long awaited debut entry.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I made a goal to be done with this story by the end of Lent.
> 
> Its so large I had to post in three parts...



I'll take a look at one part. Probably.

I originally set myself the goal to write my thing by the end of march, but am hoping to have fini'd by th end of feb now.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 7, 2008)

Alrightie, thanks man.


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## Tyrael (Feb 9, 2008)

I'm 5/6 of my way through the first book of my grand project, officially as of last night. Damn, I'm a slow writer. Hopefully should be fini'd as of the end of feb.


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## Kakashu (Feb 13, 2008)

I'm just got started on my latest novel. It's taking me such a long time to write all my ideas down (seeing that I have like 5 novels swirling around in my head!).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 13, 2008)

I have been busting my ass to write things as fast I can and editing when I have time to make sure that I keep things to a pretty good standard. I think this time I finally have the third story that I have been wanting with the kind of plot that I have been wanting to. It worked out really well so far. 

I want this story to have less down time in it but still have just a little bit left. It seems to be working.


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## Tyrael (Feb 13, 2008)

Kakashu said:


> I'm just got started on my latest novel. It's taking me such a long time to write all my ideas down (seeing that I have like 5 novels swirling around in my head!).



Try to pigeonhole your other ideas away and focus on one first. I know the feeling of having too much to write (I currently have at least 18 full books at least partly planned but it will be a gradual process, possibly taking me about 15 yrs if I am fast). Gd luck though.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I have been busting my ass to write things as fast I can and editing when I have time to make sure that I keep things to a pretty good standard. I think this time I finally have the third story that I have been wanting with the kind of plot that I have been wanting to. It worked out really well so far.
> 
> I want this story to have less down time in it but still have just a little bit left. It seems to be working.



It looked good from what I have seen, the speed you write makes me jealous, I'm currently really struggling to write more than 500 words a night (my average is actually far lower than that). I'm so close to the finish line (before editing hell that is) yet it's all comking so slow. How far you through it already?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 13, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Try to pigeonhole your other ideas away and focus on one first. I know the feeling of having too much to write (I currently have at least 18 full books at least partly planned but it will be a gradual process, possibly taking me about 15 yrs if I am fast). Gd luck though.
> 
> 
> 
> It looked good from what I have seen, the speed you write makes me jealous, I'm currently really struggling to write more than 500 words a night (my average is actually far lower than that). I'm so close to the finish line (before editing hell that is) yet it's all comking so slow. How far you through it already?



I'm only about twenty pages along, but I have had to do a lot of checking facts and looking up things to make sure that I have the information right. I study the stuff in my story as well as I can to make sure that I get all of it down right.


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## Tyrael (Feb 13, 2008)

Here's a question: how do you define page length?

A4 size 10 text?

A5 size 12?

I'm going to presume it's new times roman we're talkin' here, I just realised how many pages you've, or anyone else, done means nothing to me.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 13, 2008)

Default size twelve, times new roman. So many pages. So much to do.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 13, 2008)

Times New Roman, I do start a new page when I start a new chapter. I can give you the number of words, but that means even less because different words are different lengths. 

As of right now its exactly 8,200 words.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 13, 2008)

My original document is over 85,000 words.


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## Tyrael (Feb 13, 2008)

Damn man, it's taking me 6 months to write 68 000ish (i think). I generally go along with the crowd (12,TNR, default page size) but if I need an ego boost I turn it to A5 and switch to a big font.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 13, 2008)

I write in bursts. I could write twenty pages or a sentence in a day.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 13, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Damn man, it's taking me 6 months to write 68 000ish (i think). I generally go along with the crowd (12,TNR, default page size) but if I need an ego boost I turn it to A5 and switch to a big font.



Well that's the thing, I have rewritten and reworked this story since August, but the one before it was written in two and a half weeks, so it just depends on the kind of mood I am in. This story i am working on now I have only been working on since Friday.


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## cbfunky (Feb 14, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I write in bursts. I could write twenty pages or a sentence in a day.



I know the feeling


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## Tyrael (Feb 14, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I write in bursts. I could write twenty pages or a sentence in a day.



I write in bursts. I could write over two pages or a sentence in a day. Seriously the most I've ever been able to churn out i think was 5 pages.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well that's the thing, I have rewritten and reworked this story since August, but the one before it was written in two and a half weeks, so it just depends on the kind of mood I am in. This story i am working on now I have only been working on since Friday.



lol, if you want to talk about reworking I'm on my fourth rewrite after about two and a half yrs, so far it has got much further than any of its predecessors by a long distance. I'm so glad its the bloody thing is almost fini. Then again so far it is a bare skeleton of a story so my revision might be little more than a complete rewrite.


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## Kakashu (Feb 14, 2008)

Damn, major writer's block sucks.


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## Batman (Feb 14, 2008)

Kakashu said:


> Damn, major writer's block sucks.



Try writing something else. Or reading a book.

I don't get writers block, I get writers boredom. That's when I get sick of my own works. So I have to step back for a few days and eat some cotton candy or something.


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## Kakashu (Feb 14, 2008)

I'll try that. Thanks. Your lucky you don't get writer's block. It really gets you down especially if you've got a great idea for a story and you just can't put it down on paper.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 14, 2008)

I tend to get overly concerned about wording and looking to plain.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 14, 2008)

Here is the thing, I consider this story a rewrite of what I started almost a decade ago in Junior high some of the same characters and situations still exist actually. But now things have gotten pretty serious...and I killed off a character


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## Tyrael (Feb 14, 2008)

Kakashu said:


> I'll try that. Thanks. Your lucky you don't get writer's block. It really gets you down especially if you've got a great idea for a story and you just can't put it down on paper.



Not necessarily writers block, as far as i can tell writers block when all of your creatve process are destroyed when you go to make use of them. i.e. everytime you try to write *anything* you draw a blank, it's very rare. Most likely what Batman was talking about is something that is a big problem for many of us (at least me).

Oh and plainess can be beaten by slowly adapting your writing style, don't look to suddenly go radical.

Edit-killed off a chracte a main one? *The* main one? 'Cause that would be one hell o' a twist for any author.


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## tgre (Feb 14, 2008)

CTK 

long time no see, hows your novel coming along?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 15, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Edit-killed off a chracte a main one? *The* main one? 'Cause that would be one hell o' a twist for any author.



I couldn't kill off my main character because right now he is my point of view character. 



tiGer the rocketship said:


> CTK
> 
> long time no see, hows your novel coming along?



It's coming along I guess...I have been working alot.


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## Tyrael (Feb 15, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I couldn't kill off my main character because right now he is my point of view character.



Well, needless to say, that would certainly make things interesting. I would imagine difficult to write as well.

I personally think I may be getting slightly to liberal with killing off side characters. I need to take out a few secondary protagonists at some point at least.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 15, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Well, needless to say, that would certainly make things interesting. I would imagine difficult to write as well.
> 
> I personally think I may be getting slightly to liberal with killing off side characters. I need to take out a few secondary protagonists at some point at least.



Yeah I love most of my mains, but the one who died was a main character in an older incarnation of the story. So in a way she was a main too. She died pretty horribly too, and her death is going to be motivation for a lot of the story.


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## Tyrael (Feb 16, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah I love most of my mains, but the one who died was a main character in an older incarnation of the story. So in a way she was a main too. She died pretty horribly too, and her death is going to be motivation for a lot of the story.



Nice.

They say you should love your characters each, but to be honest I more hate them...I guess that works as well. The trick is with deaths is making the deaths matter, you don't want a horribly dramatic death of a main character met with mass apathy from your audience.


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## Aldrick (Feb 16, 2008)

I write in bursts as well and am currently working on a series of interlinked stories.

I go for absurdist humour when I write.

Currently, I'm working on a story about a group of chaps. Suggestions?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 19, 2008)

Well looks like someone needs to come along and throw a Phoenix Down on this convo...

I have asked Loveswitches to do a picture for me, so I am excited to see that and my friend Jessica drew the picture here for me: 





Aldrick said:


> I write in bursts as well and am currently working on a series of interlinked stories.
> 
> I go for absurdist humour when I write.
> 
> Currently, I'm working on a story about a group of chaps. Suggestions?



Most of my stories are interlinked, I really can't write too much else because most of what I come up with is for these stories or relates to these somehow. 

We might need a little more information than that to tell what to tell you, you know? 



Tyrael said:


> Nice.
> 
> They say you should love your characters each, but to be honest I more hate them...I guess that works as well. The trick is with deaths is making the deaths matter, you don't want a horribly dramatic death of a main character met with mass apathy from your audience.



Yeah its hard to make sure that people's reaction to the deaths are also realistic. I am having to check and recheck that now.


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## Tyrael (Feb 19, 2008)

Aldrick said:


> I write in bursts as well and am currently working on a series of interlinked stories.
> 
> I go for absurdist humour when I write.
> 
> Currently, I'm working on a story about a group of chaps. Suggestions?



Read Robert Rankin.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well looks like someone needs to come along and throw a Phoenix Down on this convo...
> 
> I have asked Loveswitches to do a picture for me, so I am excited to see that and my friend Jessica drew the picture here for me:



You've got a protagonist that is a bassist? That's kl to see. Although I am a guitarist I think there is way too much spotlight on guitarist and singers. And yes, that is odd that this is the first thing I noticed.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 19, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Read Robert Rankin.
> 
> 
> 
> You've got a protagonist that is a bassist? That's kl to see. Although I am a guitarist I think there is way too much spotlight on guitarist and singers. And yes, that is odd that this is the first thing I noticed.



Lol, I never noticed it, but she can play both, so it doesn't matter. And she sings too. She's got a few musical instruments she uses as weapons, this is just one of them. I haven't exactly found ways to explain the others.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 19, 2008)

What about the drummers? Or the horns? Or the oboe? Or the glockenspiel?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 19, 2008)

Drummers hardly ever get love, even thought they're always the ones who seem to have the most colorful personalities.


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## Tyrael (Feb 19, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> What about the drummers? Or the horns? Or the oboe? Or the glockenspiel?



QFT. Triangle players unite.

That would actually make an alright basis for a satirical short story. Would be amusing to try out one day.

Also CTK, I presume you know how the instruments work as weapons?

Also, drummers get much more love than bassists in my experience.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 19, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> QFT. Triangle players unite.
> 
> That would actually make an alright basis for a satirical short story. Would be amusing to try out one day.
> 
> ...



The guitar is an ax, obviously, which is ironic because often times people have referred to them as axes. The drum, is just a big drum and its defensive. It's summoned to protect. There's also a harp, which has something involving the strings but I am not sure if I am going to use it really. It's something like a trapping weapon that holds something in place (like a demon) so that it can be bound easier.

The idea from the last one actually came from Naruto, its pretty easy to tell where from. But there are other instrumental weapons that I am considering too.


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## Tyrael (Feb 20, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The guitar is an ax, obviously, which is ironic because often times people have referred to them as axes. The drum, is just a big drum and its defensive. It's summoned to protect. There's also a harp, which has something involving the strings but I am not sure if I am going to use it really. It's something like a trapping weapon that holds something in place (like a demon) so that it can be bound easier.
> 
> The idea from the last one actually came from Naruto, its pretty easy to tell where from. But there are other instrumental weapons that I am considering too.



I would use instruments in utilising the vibrations of sound rather than literally bangin' people over the head with them, then again I have no plans to use instruments in a fight in any of my writing. 'Cept maybe triangles.

I'm on the penultimate chapter of my novel thing. \m/


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 20, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I would use instruments in utilising the vibrations of sound rather than literally bangin' people over the head with them, then again I have no plans to use instruments in a fight in any of my writing. 'Cept maybe triangles.
> 
> I'm on the penultimate chapter of my novel thing. \m/



They're not all banging though, like I said they're different. And the sound would probably be a silly idea considering that it would do damage to everyone in the area, where as this is more localized.


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## Tyrael (Feb 20, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> They're not all banging though, like I said they're different. And the sound would probably be a silly idea considering that it would do damage to everyone in the area, where as this is more localized.



Sound can be channeled, but I guess that would make things considerably more awkward. Is this musical theme endemic of all your characters?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 20, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Sound can be channeled, but I guess that would make things considerably more awkward. Is this musical theme endemic of all your characters?



Well its only part of one character. She uses all of the sound weapons. Pretty much the musical theme only applies to her. It's not going to be a huge thing, besides the guitar most of the musical weapons will only appear once.


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## Tyrael (Feb 20, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well its only part of one character. She uses all of the sound weapons. Pretty much the musical theme only applies to her. It's not going to be a huge thing, besides the guitar most of the musical weapons will only appear once.



Sounds very interestin'; I'm interested to see how, exactly, you pull it off.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 20, 2008)

It will be a while before half of this stuff starts to happen. The current story deals more with terrorism and another characters struggle with epilepsy. That and the death of another character.


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## Major (Feb 24, 2008)

Ah man, I don't suffer from writers block, but I suffer from hating my own work.

I've been scribbling on pieces of paper since I was a kid.  I've always wanted to be a novelist, it's just that now it doesn't matter what story I write, I always end up hating it.  

I've even tried to simply finish some before judging them, but then when I finally do finish it, I end up thrashing it too.

I know I have my own voice and my own style, but for some reason I'm just not satisfied with it.

Any advice on how to overcome myself? Tough question I know, but I'm just not sure how to fix my own problem anymore.  I've even tried just getting away from writing for a while, but all that did was depress me, because I love it so much.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 26, 2008)

The Major said:


> Ah man, I don't suffer from writers block, but I suffer from hating my own work.
> 
> I've been scribbling on pieces of paper since I was a kid.  I've always wanted to be a novelist, it's just that now it doesn't matter what story I write, I always end up hating it.
> 
> ...



Most of the advice I see says just to force yourself to write, but on something else, something new. 

I have been working on story three once again and I have to say that every time I start to write I invent some new twist in the story that I didn't think about before that really makes a lot of things change. Does anyone else have this problem? 

Also I have been thinking about making a blog, but not like a journal, kind of a joke thing. It's going to be a movie review thing.


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## Einstein (Feb 26, 2008)

As for *The Major*, I'm right there with you. I've written things, usually long novels, and halfway through them I decide that I hate the whole thing. There's not really much to do but stop listening to yourself and start listening to everyone else. Even if you hate it or have your doubts, others may like it. Since I'm generally writing for someone else (the general public or certain, special people - but never just as a hobbie), if I don't like it but everyone on the outside does, I stick with it. Now, if I like it but no one else does, we've got another problem..

But all you can really do is get used to hating your stuff (assuming your style never changes or anything) and _keep everything_, even the stuff you hate the most. Throwing away work is the worst mistake I feel a novelist could make, other than expecting me to want to read their novel before they've spell-checked and revised ];

And for *Cardboard Tube Knight*, unfortunately I've never had that problem, probably due to my excessive planning of something before i write it out. But that has it's own downfalls, because there have been countless times when I've planned so much I've gotten sick of the plot and I don't even want to write it anymore D:

I don't really have much to say about the blog. I've never been much of a blog person, reader nor writer. No interest, and the only time I've thought of making one was for music reviews and handing out free albums, and that can get really tiring after a while.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 27, 2008)

sundae said:


> As for *The Major*, I'm right there with you. I've written things, usually long novels, and halfway through them I decide that I hate the whole thing. There's not really much to do but stop listening to yourself and start listening to everyone else. Even if you hate it or have your doubts, others may like it. Since I'm generally writing for someone else (the general public or certain, special people - but never just as a hobbie), if I don't like it but everyone on the outside does, I stick with it. Now, if I like it but no one else does, we've got another problem..
> 
> But all you can really do is get used to hating your stuff (assuming your style never changes or anything) and _keep everything_, even the stuff you hate the most. Throwing away work is the worst mistake I feel a novelist could make, other than expecting me to want to read their novel before they've spell-checked and revised ];
> 
> ...



Well I still do all of the planning, but at the same time I always seem to get other ideas while in the middle of writing. I think that I am flexible because I think that sticking to plans too rigidly can make things go badly too. I have a basic outline and events that need to happen at certain times, but I try to let the characters and the story go where they need to, not where I need them to.


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## Tyrael (Feb 27, 2008)

sundae said:


> As for *The Major*, I'm right there with you. I've written things, usually long novels, and halfway through them I decide that I hate the whole thing. There's not really much to do but stop listening to yourself and start listening to everyone else. Even if you hate it or have your doubts, others may like it. Since I'm generally writing for someone else (the general public or certain, special people - but never just as a hobbie), if I don't like it but everyone on the outside does, I stick with it. Now, if I like it but no one else does, we've got another problem..
> 
> But all you can really do is get used to hating your stuff (assuming your style never changes or anything) and _keep everything_, even the stuff you hate the most. Throwing away work is the worst mistake I feel a novelist could make, other than expecting me to want to read their novel before they've spell-checked and revised ];
> 
> ...



Agreed on the first point-I hate my current project but outside my copius grammatical errors I've had very little negative feedback and a fair amount of positive. That counts for something yeah?

I do ask people to read my stuff before I have revised it so I can consider their comments when I do revise it-you have to try and revise it as few times as possible generally, as there has to be point to just put it down and declare it finished. The more you revise it the harder that'll be.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well I still do all of the planning, but at the same time I always seem to get other ideas while in the middle of writing. I think that I am flexible because I think that sticking to plans too rigidly can make things go badly too. I have a basic outline and events that need to happen at certain times, but I try to let the characters and the story go where they need to, not where I need them to.



I'm the same, it's as Terry Pratchett says: It's like wind-up figures, you wind them up and point them in the right direction.

Oh and I'm tempted to make a half serious/joke blog, to accomodate any mood I happen to be in. I say go for the blog idea.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 27, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Agreed on the first point-I hate my current project but outside my copius grammatical errors I've had very little negative feedback and a fair amount of positive. That counts for something yeah?
> 
> I do ask people to read my stuff before I have revised it so I can consider their comments when I do revise it-you have to try and revise it as few times as possible generally, as there has to be point to just put it down and declare it finished. The more you revise it the harder that'll be.
> 
> ...



Right now I am having a little bit of a problem with the pacing in my story and I have had toi go back and revise it several times just in the last few days. I am working on a sort of tight time scale and I am trying to fit a lot into this current story...

I have one character dying, another ending up in a coma, another getting badly injured, another becoming temporarily wheel chair bound and loads of other stuff. So there is a lot going on. But after this I will have set the stage for all sorts of things. 

As for the blog, I might go ahead and launch it on my birthday.


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## Tyrael (Feb 27, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> *Right now I am having a little bit of a problem with the pacing in my story *and I have had toi go back and revise it several times just in the last few days. I am working on a sort of tight time scale and I am trying to fit a lot into this current story...
> 
> I have one character dying, another ending up in a coma, another getting badly injured, another becoming temporarily wheel chair bound and loads of other stuff. So there is a lot going on. But after this I will have set the stage for all sorts of things.
> 
> As for the blog, I might go ahead and launch it on my birthday.



That could be a summary of all my writing so far.

Sounds like it's all kicking off though, putting characters at odds with themselves or in heavily depressing situations=fun. Which site you thinki' 'bout usin' for the blog?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 27, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> That could be a summary of all my writing so far.
> 
> Sounds like it's all kicking off though, putting characters at odds with themselves or in heavily depressing situations=fun. Which site you thinki' 'bout usin' for the blog?



Well I am putting them at odds with themselves: there's family issues, friendship issues and issues with people's job position. I think this is the only way for the story to get kicked off. Really things are going to be really bad for my characters from here on out and I am hoping that I can just get the ideas to flow right. I am working on the pacing as best as I can though.

I am planning to use Blogger.


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## Tyrael (Feb 27, 2008)

Would you say that your narrative/plot is character driven? That goes for everyone else, character/plot/theme driven, what's the best?


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## Dream Brother (Feb 27, 2008)

I feel that good writing means that character _is_ plot, and plot is character. At least, that’s the way I try to write.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 27, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Would you say that your narrative/plot is character driven? That goes for everyone else, character/plot/theme driven, what's the best?



Its hard to say. I have a lot of characters and there is a lot going on in the plot. It might be that once things get to a certain level the plot takes off more, but I am going to have to go and say that this story is more character driven for the time being. My characters and their lives have a huge effect on all parts of the plot.


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## Tyrael (Feb 27, 2008)

Dream Brother said:


> I feel that good writing means that character _is_ plot, and plot is character. At least, that’s the way I try to write.



That isn't necessarily the case though-the only book which has a balance of all 3 is LotR. I cannot actually name any others-almost everything swings one way or another (although an honourable mention should be given to the Neuromancer and Catch-22). You are right in that they are linked inexorably-but character is best defined through things that aren't plot driven and plots that are driven solely by character often come out unconvincing.

Actually I am unsure exactly how your theory would work in execution.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 27, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> That isn't necessarily the case though-the only book which has a balance of all 3 is LotR. I cannot actually name any others-almost everything swings one way or another (although an honourable mention should be given to the Neuromancer and Catch-22). You are right in that they are linked inexorably-but character is best defined through things that aren't plot driven and plots that are driven solely by character often come out unconvincing.
> 
> Actually I am unsure exactly how your theory would work in execution.



I guess that its better that I had a hard time picking up on which one my story was.


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## Dream Brother (Feb 27, 2008)

I probably just can’t express myself accurately, or perhaps we both have differing definitions of character and plot. I think the general idea of my stance is basically the same as Faulkner’s statement that ‘the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself’. That conflict _defines_ the ‘plot’.

It's most likely a taste thing more than anything else.


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## Tyrael (Feb 28, 2008)

Dream Brother said:


> I probably just can?t express myself accurately, or perhaps we both have differing definitions of character and plot. I think the general idea of my stance is basically the same as Faulkner?s statement that ?the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself?. That conflict _defines_ the ?plot?.
> 
> It's most likely a taste thing more than anything else.



It's probably best that I demonstate what I mean through examples:

Theme driven: Lord of the Flies, Brave New World.

Character driven: Robin Hobb and Terry Pratchett (all of their works that I have read).

Plot driven: Robert Jordan and George RR Martin (see above).

All three are very strong in all named works as, of course, they should be but there is definitely a slant towards one or another. I do see where you are coming from with your stance-the three should almost be inseperable but it strikes me as very difficult thing to do. The real problem is that the very basic conception and grounds of the story will probably determine what type it is. Then again pigeonholing works is very much an exercise in futility so nobody should let it slow them down. Ultimately it is the quality of the package that matters.

CTK, having a character driven story is no bad thing-Terry Pratchett is easily my favourite author and I would argue his work to be character driven.

My definiton of character are moments and details that are not necessary for the plot, while still helping to three-dimensionalise the character. The hard part is knowing when you are contributing to the overall picture or writing superflous fluff.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 28, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> CTK, having a character driven story is no bad thing-Terry Pratchett is easily my favourite author and I would argue his work to be character driven.
> 
> My definiton of character are moments and details that are not necessary for the plot, while still helping to three-dimensionalise the character. The hard part is knowing when you are contributing to the overall picture or writing superflous fluff.



That pretty much describes my story right there, there is a lot of extra character development but it actually goes into the over all story. Its important to me that my characters fill out the story and that the reader can feel like they are reading about three dimensional people.


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## Maycara (Feb 28, 2008)

I currently have 220+ pages written for my story, and about 150+ pages of different ideas for it, basically slightly unwritten parts of the story.

Here is chapter 1:


Grammar errors still, but I always do those at the end after everything is done, least important to me.


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## Tyrael (Feb 28, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> That pretty much describes my story right there, there is a lot of extra character development but it actually goes into the over all story. Its important to me that my characters fill out the story and that the reader can feel like they are reading about three dimensional people.



That's how every author, no doubt, would like to think about their stories. Alas, sadly some do it better than others; sometimes, oddly, you get people popular because of the imbalance *cough*Harry Potter*cough*. I am afraid that I'd like to think that the reader is reading about 3-dimensional chars but I am unsure if I am successful in delivery.



Minzara said:


> Grammar errors still, but I always do those at the end after everything is done, least important to me.



They should be the most important-only once you have got it as readable as it can be should you worry about content.


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## Maycara (Feb 28, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> They should be the most important-only once you have got it as readable as it can be should you worry about content.


I completely disagree. If you spend too much time working on grammar at first, it takes you away from writing the actual story. Grammar is always done last for me, after I make sure my story is solid, then I go through and make the necessary changes.


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## Tyrael (Feb 28, 2008)

Minzara said:


> I completely disagree. If you spend too much time working on grammar at first, it takes you away from writing the actual story. Grammar is always done last for me, after I make sure my story is solid, then I go through and make the necessary changes.



Hmm, fair point, but remember that delivery can make or break a good story. While there will be mistakes/typos in the intial documents (god knows I'm hardly in any position to shoot anyone down over it) it will distract readers from the content. I gave a piece of my writing to a friend and he ended up picking his way through everything I have technically done wrong instead of giving me feedback based on the style/story. Also correcting in places you may lack in relation to grammar will help you evolve your style and grow more comfortable with what you may do with it.


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## Maycara (Feb 28, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Hmm, fair point, but remember that delivery can make or break a good story. While there will be mistakes/typos in the intial documents (god knows I'm hardly in any position to shoot anyone down over it) it will distract readers from the content. I gave a piece of my writing to a friend and he ended up picking his way through everything I have technically done wrong instead of giving me feedback based on the style/story. Also correcting in places you may lack in relation to grammar will help you evolve your style and grow more comfortable with what you may do with it.



Yes it can, that is very true. Which is why I work on the grammar at the end. I don't turn it into a publisher written like:

Im am as coolz as a mouze.

Something tells me he would tell me to go fuck myself. 

Ya if my friend did that to me, I would call him a bastard, lol. He is suppose to be a friend an all he can do is dis on my grammar errors? I understand people you don't know doing that, but he is a ass, lol.

That last part is a good point as well.


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## Tyrael (Feb 28, 2008)

Minzara said:


> Yes it can, that is very true. Which is why I work on the grammar at the end. I don't turn it into a publisher written like:
> 
> Im am as coolz as a mouze.
> 
> ...



Lol, I'm kl with my mate just correcting all my grammar: saves me from doing it. And if need be I can inflict it upon him again once it's all correct. You actuallysend your work off to publishers?


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## Maycara (Feb 28, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Lol, I'm kl with my mate just correcting all my grammar: saves me from doing it. And if need be I can inflict it upon him again once it's all correct. You actuallysend your work off to publishers?



Two times in the past. For poems I had written. My dad is a writer an he has had many poems published. He isn't very big, only like 10-15 poems if I remember correctly. Published in a big book with a ton of other poems. I tried as well, and the first time I did it was with a bad grammar poem, the publisher told me to go fuck myself pretty much.  lol. The second one almost got published, but they said no in the long run. After that I knew I couldn't write poems as good as my dad, I didn't like to write them anyway. So now I am going for writing a whole story.


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## Tyrael (Mar 4, 2008)

I've finished my novel!

...and it turns out I need to write a sequel. Bugger.

Well it's been just over 8 months of my slow writing and agonising self-hatred but finally I have finished. 74,000 words roughly, 140 A4 pages. I'm unsure if I should post anything here however.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 4, 2008)

Well thats good to hear, at least you finished the first one, right. I am working on the third one right now but its going very slowly and hard going. Why do you think you need a sequel now, is this just a new development? Or were you planning on making a sequel.


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## Tyrael (Mar 4, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well thats good to hear, at least you finished the first one, right. I am working on the third one right now but its going very slowly and hard going. Why do you think you need a sequel now, is this just a new development? Or were you planning on making a sequel.



I kinda planned to write 4, but I think i've scrapped that idea and am seeing how many books I need to do (loathe I am to say it, but it will probably turn into a trilogy). There is still a lot to be explained and a lot to be resolved. Remember how you ask if sometimes the narrative does someting that rapidly changes the course of the story? Well in the late stages of the book pretty much the biggest thing, besides the world blowing up, happened in that respect-means that I have quite alot to work with. I'm unsure whether I should leave it for a month or so then go back to editing or plunge back in. What did you find worked well for your last two?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 4, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I kinda planned to write 4, but I think i've scrapped that idea and am seeing how many books I need to do (loathe I am to say it, but it will probably turn into a trilogy). There is still a lot to be explained and a lot to be resolved. Remember how you ask if sometimes the narrative does someting that rapidly changes the course of the story? Well in the late stages of the book pretty much the biggest thing, besides the world blowing up, happened in that respect-means that I have quite alot to work with. I'm unsure whether I should leave it for a month or so then go back to editing or plunge back in. What did you find worked well for your last two?



Well sometimes I started on the next story the second that I closed and saved the file for the last one. I just dive right in all of the time. I might rest some hours or a day or so but that's it. Here is the thing though, it works different for different people, like all things. 

I actually am writing what could end up being a lot of stories, like seven or eight, but yeah I kind of think the trilogy thing is over done, everything is turning into a trilogy now. Truth of the matter is, this story I am on could in no way be the last with the way that it is going right now because there is far too much unresolved with unrelated subjects to wrap up in this one story. 

Right now I am just trying to figure out what direction I want things to go in with this one. I am trying to pace things and reveal things at the right times. There are so many secrets and things going on that the characters have yet to reveal or learn and I know dumping out too much at once or in one story can some times ruin things.


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## Tyrael (Mar 4, 2008)

I try and see what the novel seems to demand, it looks like it'll be a trilogy at the moment but it may only turn out to be two books. Maybe four, I try not to plan to far ahead. Depends on my goddamn pacing. I might try writing something else then come back and edit what I have written.

Eight books? Ambitious plan man, if you manage to keep it good through all of that I tip my hat to you.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 4, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I try and see what the novel seems to demand, it looks like it'll be a trilogy at the moment but it may only turn out to be two books. Maybe four, I try not to plan to far ahead. Depends on my goddamn pacing. I might try writing something else then come back and edit what I have written.
> 
> Eight books? Ambitious plan man, if you manage to keep it good through all of that I tip my hat to you.



The real trick is goin to be either finding  some way to make them all first person, or finding a good third person voice to use. I really want to try and make sure that each one of the three main characters is given a narration but that's kind of hard to do. 


I'm not even that sure if I can do all of the first person things, and like I said, there cold be more than eight.


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## Tyrael (Mar 4, 2008)

Do you read much third person writing?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 4, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Do you read much third person writing?



Yeah some, but I still seem to have lost the ability to write it on my own for some reason, don't ask me why though. I do enjoy the whole first person thing a lot, its just fun to write in that manner.


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## Tyrael (Mar 4, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah some, but I still seem to have lost the ability to write it on my own for some reason, don't ask me why though. I do enjoy the whole first person thing a lot, its just fun to write in that manner.



First person is easier and more fun, although I do not use it very much. Changing perspective will change the dynamic of the story, keep that in mind before you look to change it but if you do read some third person I am unsure how you could struggle with it. I mean, it is harder, but what third person I have read of yours seemed quite good. I find it a more flexible style beyond the fact that you can have as many viewpoints as you want. If you really don't think that your third person is up to scratch just practise and look to read more third person in the same vein as your novel.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 4, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> First person is easier and more fun, although I do not use it very much. Changing perspective will change the dynamic of the story, keep that in mind before you look to change it but if you do read some third person I am unsure how you could struggle with it. I mean, it is harder, but what third person I have read of yours seemed quite good. I find it a more flexible style beyond the fact that you can have as many viewpoints as you want. If you really don't think that your third person is up to scratch just practise and look to read more third person in the same vein as your novel.



Yeah I guess I might have to look into some third person stuff, but the third story is staying like it is and in this viewpoint. Besides its more interesting to watch the reactions of characters from this stand point: 

I think I might post a little sample, mostly because this new character I stuck in is fun: 



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Lord Yu (Mar 4, 2008)

Another few months, another ending idea. However, thinking of it it's actually a complete ending. I don't think I've had a complete ending until now.


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## Tyrael (Mar 4, 2008)

I like the extraxct CTK, had good atmosphere and solid characters coupled with a great atmosphere of mystery.

How many endings have you had so far Yu? How far are you from even getting there anyway?


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## Lord Yu (Mar 4, 2008)

I'm ridiculously far. I can't count the endings I've thought of. But this is the most complete. Perhaps, it's a little cliche, but it also rings a little unexpected.


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## Temari-Sensei (Mar 4, 2008)

Yeah, I'm working on one. It's really corny and needs a lot of editing. I started it a few years ago but you know that ADD! XD

I still don't have a permanent name for it yet. I can't decide between "The Nine" or "Bejewled"


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 6, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I like the extraxct CTK, had good atmosphere and solid characters coupled with a great atmosphere of mystery.
> 
> How many endings have you had so far Yu? How far are you from even getting there anyway?



Thanks, I am trying to find a way to print it all out so I can pick over it with a fine toothed comb. Needless to say I have written a car chase, some shooting and then a scene where things kind of calm down for a moment. Then I wrote some more after that.


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## Tyrael (Mar 6, 2008)

Aaargh, used atmosphere twice. It almost sounds you are sliding into a kind of mainstream cyberpunk style-not necessarily a bad thing.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 6, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Aaargh, used atmosphere twice. It almost sounds you are sliding into a kind of mainstream cyberpunk style-not necessarily a bad thing.


 
Not sure who you are talking to hear or what its about. I have never been much for the cyber punk genre, sure I like some of the things in that genre. But I don't think I could write them persay.


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## Tyrael (Mar 6, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Not sure who you are talking to hear or what its about. I have never been much for the cyber punk genre, sure I like some of the things in that genre. But I don't think I could write them persay.



Er...My rather odd way of classifying things is confusing, I just tend to classify urban fantasy with a heavy leaning towards thriller/action as mainstream cyberpunk. No idea why. Probably because of the matrix.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 6, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Er...My rather odd way of classifying things is confusing, I just tend to classify urban fantasy with a heavy leaning towards thriller/action as mainstream cyberpunk. No idea why. Probably because of the matrix.



I always think of cyberpunk as more of a thing reserved for stuff where technology is an important part of the story, but the technology must be futuristic and almost like another character in that it is so prevalent. 

I also think that most of them fall into a darker type of fiction, like the cyberpunk stuff I see usually has a very bleak outlook on the future. 

I really don't have a cyberpunk thing going on in my story, I don't think anyway. I men the little bit about hacking you saw there was a small thing, but this story actually features terrorists and the like.


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## Tyrael (Mar 8, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I always think of cyberpunk as more of a thing reserved for stuff where technology is an important part of the story, but the technology must be futuristic and almost like another character in that it is so prevalent.
> 
> I also think that most of them fall into a darker type of fiction, like the cyberpunk stuff I see usually has a very bleak outlook on the future.
> 
> I really don't have a cyberpunk thing going on in my story, I don't think anyway. I men the little bit about hacking you saw there was a small thing, but this story actually features terrorists and the like.



The association with futuristic advancements are dealing with modernity as it stands; extrapolationing from that it can be said that fantasy books set in present day onwards have an importance put onto technology. But tbh you're right, especially about the darker side of future advancements, it's just me being lazy with my categorisation. I'm going to probably put my foot in it again and say yours sounds like what I imagined urban fantasy to be like.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 8, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> The association with futuristic advancements are dealing with modernity as it stands; extrapolationing from that it can be said that fantasy books set in present day onwards have an importance put onto technology. But tbh you're right, especially about the darker side of future advancements, it's just me being lazy with my categorisation. I'm going to probably put my foot in it again and say yours sounds like what I imagined urban fantasy to be like.



Well the thing is most of the time the technology takes a backseat to the magic in the story.There's a lot of magic, there's vampires, Angels, Demons and all manner of other creatures such as Ghost. Some times modern technology helps to fight these things, but more often than not there is some use of old folklore.


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## Tyrael (Mar 8, 2008)

Fair 'nuff dude, I'm jus' bein' awkward. I'm still tryin' to work what to do with my book-I think I will edit it before starting on the sequel.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 8, 2008)

My story is heavy fantasy/modern mix with lazy sci-fi when I think of something cool sounding.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 8, 2008)

I am kind of editing as I go. 

But right now I am thinking about placing a new character in place. A kind of anti-hero but one more on the wrong side of the law. Not sure what I will name him or what I will make his story. But I know I want this character in there and am finding more and more I need something like this.


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## Zitianos (Mar 14, 2008)

I'm writing a story about a kid with a Schizophrenic Mom, and how he has to deal with taking care of her from a very young age.

Also I'm writing some Steampunkish story set in another world during about the time of the English Industrial revolution.

I can't write romance in any of my stories. It'd turn out to be Yaoi most likely, and that wouldn't sell well, so all of the main relationships in my stories are all Platonic.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 14, 2008)

Don't think about what will sell. Think about what's fun to write.


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## Tyrael (Mar 14, 2008)

Zitianos said:


> I'm writing a story about a kid with a Schizophrenic Mom, and how he has to deal with taking care of her from a very young age.
> 
> Also I'm writing some Steampunkish story set in another world during about the time of the English Industrial revolution.
> 
> I can't write romance in any of my stories. It'd turn out to be Yaoi most likely, and that wouldn't sell well, so all of the main relationships in my stories are all Platonic.



Are you using the psychological definition of schizophrenia or the hollywood one?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 14, 2008)

Zitianos said:


> I'm writing a story about a kid with a Schizophrenic Mom, and how he has to deal with taking care of her from a very young age.
> 
> Also I'm writing some Steampunkish story set in another world during about the time of the English Industrial revolution.
> 
> I can't write romance in any of my stories. It'd turn out to be Yaoi most likely, and that wouldn't sell well, so all of the main relationships in my stories are all Platonic.



Yeah yaoi probably wouldn't sell, because most yaoi pairings don't make sense and seem to be done for the vanity of it. The proper term is just homosexual romance, and it can sell just like anything else would. 

I don't have any gays in my story, but I think that pretty much anything can sell if written right.


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## Tyrael (Mar 14, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah yaoi probably wouldn't sell, because most yaoi pairings don't make sense and seem to be done for the vanity of it. The proper term is just homosexual romance, and it can sell just like anything else would.
> 
> I don't have any gays in my story, but I think that pretty much anything can sell if written right.



I think yaoi is a correct term. If we're talking about a Japanese anime...



Lord Yu said:


> Don't think about what will sell. Think about what's fun to write.



Seconded'd.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 14, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I think yaoi is a correct term. If we're talking about a Japanese anime...
> 
> 
> 
> Seconded'd.



I thought we were talking about novels.

And I really don't agree with the fun to write thing. I could sit here and write silly shit that's fun but it wouldn't be good all of the time and therefore it probably isn't marketable. Writing isn't always fun, writing is hard work some of the time and its one of those things that can hurt just as much as it can be a lot of fun. There are things writers have to do to make a novel or story work, and they aren't always fun. You might want to skip all detail and get right to the fun part, because its fun. But it will make for a story where little may be understood.


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## Tyrael (Mar 14, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I thought we were talking about novels.
> 
> And I really don't agree with the fun to write thing. I could sit here and write silly shit that's fun but it wouldn't be good all of the time and therefore it probably isn't marketable. Writing isn't always fun, writing is hard work some of the time and its one of those things that can hurt just as much as it can be a lot of fun. There are things writers have to do to make a novel or story work, and they aren't always fun. You might want to skip all detail and get right to the fun part, because its fun. But it will make for a story where little may be understood.



Apparently we were wrong.

I disagree, even when I'm getting HOLYSHITFUCKINSTRESSEDOUTTAMYSKULL I'm still enjoying it. Hard work and fun can come together, although perhaps fun carries the wrong connotations. I'll say gratifying.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 14, 2008)

I know yuri actually means Lily in Japanese. I haven't found out what yaoi means. I know another yaoi term Bara actually means rose.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 14, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Apparently we were wrong.
> 
> I disagree, even when I'm getting HOLYSHITFUCKINSTRESSEDOUTTAMYSKULL I'm still enjoying it. Hard work and fun can come together, although perhaps fun carries the wrong connotations. I'll say gratifying.



Gratifying totally makes sense but has a different connatation. Doing the right thing is gratifying, not always fun though.


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## graysocks (Mar 19, 2008)

I've kept up with this whole thread and not really given anything! So here you go, tis about 6:45am and can't sleep haha. Nothing great, i know, but first try really 


*Spoiler*: __ 





> 22:13, the day is almost over yet Matt has only been awake for enough time to throw together a cup of coffee, get dressed in the regular - loose jeans with loose t shirt, no socks - and now tune in for the last half of whatever the hell this is.
> 
> Mundane. You'd think with a schedule like this Matt would be living in the family shed, just purely out of pride, as for a 29 year old man living in his childhood sanctuary of rock star posters and cartoon bedsheets, it seems just too depressing. But, here he sits on a leather sofa in a three bedroom flat, albeit, he only has use of one. Strange place, everywhere you look it's wooden: the floor, table, chairs, hell even the walls have been made out to look like it - a complete sham however as no matter how good the place looks there's no way a flat this high up is made out of anything flammable.
> 
> ...


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## Batman (Mar 19, 2008)

_"and now tune in for the last half of whatever the hell this is."_  I really like that line. I like your writing style too, makes me want to read a bit more.


Also, do you all think editing to music is a hindrance. I've gotten into this habit and I'm dancing in my chair while going over my work. It makes me wonder if I'm "fuckin up".


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## Einstein (Mar 19, 2008)

*graysocks:*
That was a really good read. Interesting. 

*Batman:*
I don't think so, then again, I'm a true music nut. I write, edit, eat, read, sleep, and wake up to music. I don't really have any editing problems when I do, it actually puts a little pep in my step, makes me lightly more interested in having to go through with the boring process of editing.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 19, 2008)

I'd say it depends on the music. Ambient stuff is good if you want to focus as it can drown out background stuff but not distract you at the same time. I tend to listen to alot of dark ambient when writing. It drags out alot of my emotions without distracting me.


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## graysocks (Mar 20, 2008)

Thanks guys = D

As for music i MUST have music or atleast some background noise at all times, can't even sleep without it. So yes it is a must for me


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## Batman (Mar 20, 2008)

I have a question that I put in the convo thread, but I think I should have put it here.



> I'm been thinking about contractions when not in dialog. Sometimes I use them when I feel it sounds better, but not because of any particular rule. Just purely based on instinct. I know that some people say never to use them, but during my editing process today I came a across a few and I was wondering if they might be distracting to a more ""advanced"" reader. I don't know what the believed consensus is about them, btw.



What's the general rule, and how strictly do you follow it?


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## Tyrael (Mar 20, 2008)

Wow, that's a lot of stuff in the book of Hondo, just skimmed through the first few parts. I'm also surprised your willing to bare so much of it to these forums. It's got a quirky charm of what I have read but I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to with it.


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## neko-sennin (Mar 21, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Wow, that's a lot of stuff in the book of Hondo, just skimmed through the first few parts. I'm also surprised your willing to bare so much of it to these forums. It's got a quirky charm of what I have read but I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to do with it.



Thanks, and don't worry, the Book was meant to be Public Domain to begin with, so feel free to copy, pass it on, etc. As for what I was trying to do with it, well, it was mostly an epic tale about nothing, one of those sort of things where the journey is the destination.

And as a strange side-effect, people tell me it's blend of modern slang and Elizabethan grammar-- mostly a result of a whole year of English Lit and Shakespeare during the time I wrote most of it, as well as cruising my aunt's old King James Bible (and yes, she knew exactly what I was using it for, she was in on the conspiracy, as well  ) at random-- actually made it easier for them to read and understand Shakespeare, which I find rather amusing. 



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The book of hondo seems ambitious and kind of long, but I never was much for written parodies or comedies.



No prob. Most people either really like it or really hate it. As a writer, I can say with some measure of pride that yours is about the closest thing to a "neutral" reaction that it's ever gotten. 

On the other hand, the short stories in the other thread are somewhat different, having been written "in between" other projects.


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## Einstein (Mar 21, 2008)

I've barely started reading the Book of Hondo and I've come to like it already. The mix of the old time language and the modern language gets me and at times tickles me, seeing as you can present the words 'knoweth' and then have the modern cynicism right next to it.

Don't know how many would approve of you calling Jehovah an 'uptight bitch', but as I am without religion and with a slight vendetta against the Christian God, I found it quite amusing, and at a lot of points, truthful.

The only thing I would probably have to say on the bad side would be the names, Matt and Derrick. Those are some pretty common names. To each his own, I personally would've shot down baby name books and websites to find the most obscure six-letter name that starts with a vowel that I could (or something like that).

Overall, I really like the concept.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 21, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Thanks, and don't worry, the Book was meant to be Public Domain to begin with, so feel free to copy, pass it on, etc. As for what I was trying to do with it, well, it was mostly an epic tale about nothing, one of those sort of things where the journey is the destination.
> 
> And as a strange side-effect, people tell me it's blend of modern slang and Elizabethan grammar-- mostly a result of a whole year of English Lit and Shakespeare during the time I wrote most of it, as well as cruising my aunt's old King James Bible (and yes, she knew exactly what I was using it for, she was in on the conspiracy, as well  ) at random-- actually made it easier for them to read and understand Shakespeare, which I find rather amusing.
> 
> ...



Well it seems very seldom that we come across a comedy written as a comedy alone in the writing world, and while some books are funny its rare that the humor is very central. I'm glad you didn't take it as some sort of bad comment. 

I'm not sure that something like "Its not my cup of tea" should make people mad. Just most of the time people have a tendency to be protective of their work.


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## neko-sennin (Mar 21, 2008)

Einstein said:


> I've barely started reading the Book of Hondo and I've come to like it already. The mix of the old time language and the modern language gets me and at times tickles me, seeing as you can present the words 'knoweth' and then have the modern cynicism right next to it.
> 
> Don't know how many would approve of you calling Jehovah an 'uptight bitch', but as I am without religion and with a slight vendetta against the Christian God, I found it quite amusing, and at a lot of points, truthful.



Yeah, I find that those who take religion too seriously tend not to like this Book.  Then again, I was baptized Catholic as a baby to appease one wing of my family, but grew up around the Southern Baptist tradition, before walking away from organized religion when I was older. In the course of the book, though, such as that opening bit with all those gods and stuff, I made a point of making fun of every religion/mythology I had heard of, and take whimsical jabs at all of them at some point along the way. Politics is fair game, as well, as I'm sure you noticed. The first rule for writing it was: "Nothing is sacred.".



Einstein said:


> The only thing I would probably have to say on the bad side would be the names, Matt and Derrick. Those are some pretty common names. To each his own, I personally would've shot down baby name books and websites to find the most obscure six-letter name that starts with a vowel that I could (or something like that).



Probably what I would have done, but as these things tend to go, I didn't get to name my gods.  (Rather, they named me, but that's another story.) The whole thing started when two of my friends, Matt and Derrick, got bored in Study Hall and decided to start their own religion, Hondo. After I heard about it, I wanted in on the fun, and they agreed to make me their First Apostle if I wrote their sacred text, the Book of Hondo. Many of the other characters you'll meet along the way are also loosely based on other members, ourselves writ large as gods and heroes and comic relief.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well it seems very seldom that we come across a comedy written as a comedy alone in the writing world, and while some books are funny its rare that the humor is very central. I'm glad you didn't take it as some sort of bad comment.
> 
> I'm not sure that something like "Its not my cup of tea" should make people mad. Just most of the time people have a tendency to be protective of their work.



Yeah, I tend to agree with you on that. It's not really fair to ask somebody if they like something they're not really into to begin with. And I guess I have fairly thick skin anymore when it comes to criticism; Matt-sama can be pretty ruthless, but he usually has a point, when he critiques my work.


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## Einstein (Mar 21, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Yeah, I find that those who take religion too seriously tend not to like this Book.  Then again, I was baptized Catholic as a baby to appease one wing of my family, but grew up around the Southern Baptist tradition, before walking away from organized religion when I was older. In the course of the book, though, such as that opening bit with all those gods and stuff, I made a point of making fun of every religion/mythology I had heard of, and take whimsical jabs at all of them at some point along the way.


I did notice you poking fun at everything, which is very nice, for backup purposes. If people were to try to get on to you for making fun of one, you could easily say "Hey, I made fun of that, that, and that one, too! Your religion is no better that theirs, it's all equal."


> Politics is fair game, as well, as I'm sure you noticed. The first rule for writing it was: "Nothing is sacred.".


I know that, but sadly others don't. Especially readers. There have been a lot of things I'd love to write about but have been a little afraid to, because readers usually fail to realize that and I'm too afraid of how they'd take it.



> Probably what I would have done, but as these things tend to go, I didn't get to name my gods.  (Rather, they named me, but that's another story.) The whole thing started when two of my friends, Matt and Derrick, got bored in Study Hall and decided to start their own religion, Hondo. After I heard about it, I wanted in on the fun, and they agreed to make me their First Apostle if I wrote their sacred text, the Book of Hondo. Many of the other characters you'll meet along the way are also loosely based on other members, ourselves writ large as gods and heroes and comic relief.


That's great that you got your inspiration from that, now I see why you named things the way you did, whereas I at first thought it was just randomly named (which is why I questioned the names Matt and Derrick).


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## neko-sennin (Mar 21, 2008)

Einstein said:


> That's great that you got your inspiration from that, now I see why you named things the way you did, whereas I at first thought it was just randomly named (which is why I questioned the names Matt and Derrick).



Actually, I'm the one who's randomly named.  "Scoot" was a nickname I already went by, but "the Ko'An" part was Matt-sama's idea. He actually flipped through a dictionary, and jabbed his finger at the page with his eyes closed, hitting on the word "koan" ironically enough. It's actually a term from Zen philosophy, referring to those questions they ask, such as the one about a tree falling in the woods, or the sound of one hand clapping.  I just tweaked the spelling to make it look more arcane.

Of course, it was one of a number of "Hondo names" that were made up for others, sometimes messing with their original, or at the very least giving them peculiar titles, such as Dirty Uncle Orty or The Brian.


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## Serp (Mar 22, 2008)

@CTK any updates on your novel?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 22, 2008)

Serp said:


> @CTK any updates on your novel?



Well not many, the thing has gotten to the point where I am just kind of coasting until I get to the next big event. I could post a little piece I worked on the other night. It was odd because I wrote it in a fail swoop as a separate short story and it ended up becoming part of the story. 

But the little piece is more romantic than anything, for a short time anyway. I am trying still to get this done, maybe before the end of April at the latest.

Here's the part though: (if anyone notices where the opening line is from reps) 


*Spoiler*: __ 




             There was a tear in the fabric of her little cerulean dress and I?m sneaking glances. Sitting across from her and trying to concentrate on the task at hand was becoming harder and harder. I?m antsy, wrapping on the back of this book with my pencil. The dull thud is the only sound I can concentrate on. 


            Drown out the rest of the restaurant dinner crowd. Drown out the cars and their engine?s humming in the wet, winter Houston streets. At times like this I thought that I could drown out the whole world. 


            Her legs were crossed underneath the table and only made apparent by her dangling foot grazing the side of my leg. She had her head laid over on her arm, the red tendrils flowed partway down the length of her pale arm. I glanced up at her, following that same arm with my eyes, stopping briefly on the mole that marked the halfway point between her wrist and elbow. 


            She turned the page of her book while tonguing the inside of her cheek and then slowly she glanced up at me through those thick red rimmed glasses, ?What is it?? Her foot stopped moving under the table.


            ?What?s what?? I knew what she was talking about?


            Her eyes turned back down to the pages of the book, ?Nothing,? shortly after that she resumed kicking under the table and I tried to get back into what I was supposed to be doing. But my eyes kept flowing back up to the tear in the dress, it was just below the crook of her elbow on the side of her abdomen. 


            She glanced off to the side, ?It?s the hole in the dress, isn?t it?? 


            ?I didn?t even notice until??


            ?I tore it going through a door,? she started the little story and then, ?Is it too blatant?should I go home and change??


            It was funny the things that she wanted reassurance over, ?No, its just making me think?? I leaned out and reached across the table, slipping my finger into the hole and grazing the side of her body. 


            She giggled and leaned across the table, her face got just inches from mine, ?Think about?? she smirked lightly. 


            The waitress returned to the table to refill my iced tea, her hand wrapped the bottom of the glass as she dumped the pitcher in, ?You two need anything else?? 


            With a brush of her red curls Persephanie dropped back into her chair and my finger came out of the hole, ?That?s all really, Karen.?


            Karen was the same waitress we had most of the time that we came here, we tended to just seat ourselves in her section. 


            ?I love this tea here,? I said randomly as I took a sip.


            Persephanie took her head, ?I can?t believe you?re having another one.?


            ?I don?t see why not?? I reached into my pocket and slipped out my pack of Lucky Strikes.? 


            ?You?re not smoking those around me,? she said with a completely straight face, all of her pep drained from her voice. 


            ?Just why not? Are you going to stop me?? I asked. 


            She smiled wryly, ?No,? she leaned back across the table, ?but its going to stop me from kissing you for the next two days.?


            I dropped the pack of cigarettes onto the table and pressed my lips to her quickly and pulled back. She laughed this cute, little, dorky stuttering laugh that I loved so much. Her deep green eyes were half closed as I put my hand against her neck. 


            Her neck was so warm against my hand, it tingled as I slid my fingers back up the side of her neck. She sighed and tilted her head back with a smile. I stood now, walking around to the other side of the table to be closer to her. With her head tilted back we kissed as I stood behind her and for some reason only then was it apparent that somewhere a clock was ticking too loudly.


            I glanced up and the restaurant was empty, the streets outside black and empty, devoid of people. Except for the little girl standing with the clock in her hands. The little girl I had seen before in my dreams. She was a tiny brunette, maybe Penny?s age with straight dark hair.


            She held the clock and things seemed to slow down, the glass on the windows of the diner burst inward, but in slow motion and the ticking grew louder. The rain outside of the diner started then, but the rain wasn?t right.


            It stained the dress of the little girl red, ran down her face in red droplets. All over again it was happening, it was raining blood; the little girl just laughed, ?Tick-tock?you're wasting time.?


            Her voice reverberated off through the caverns of my head.


            I woke up in the passenger seat of a van with someone shaking me violently by the shoulder.


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## neko-sennin (Mar 22, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well not many, the thing has gotten to the point where I am just kind of coasting until I get to the next big event. I could post a little piece I worked on the other night. It was odd because I wrote it in a fail swoop as a separate short story and it ended up becoming part of the story.
> 
> But the little piece is more romantic than anything, for a short time anyway. I am trying still to get this done, maybe before the end of April at the latest.
> 
> Here's the part though: (if anyone notices where the opening line is from reps)



I'll have to dig back and see if I can find previous parts. It's good, it's engaging, but walking in on the middle, I don't have much of a sense of where I am and what's going on in the bigger picture.

Are we allowed to post chapters in our own threads in this section? I saw some others, so I was just kinda wondering.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 22, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> I'll have to dig back and see if I can find previous parts. It's good, it's engaging, but walking in on the middle, I don't have much of a sense of where I am and what's going on in the bigger picture.
> 
> Are we allowed to post chapters in our own threads in this section? I saw some others, so I was just kinda wondering.



I don't think that I have posted parts of this particular story but we are allowed to post them here, its too much work so I generally post mine on another site and link them here. 

But this story is going to bridge a gap more than anything, its going to be there to usher in the main part of the series, especially with the revelations I will have at the end.


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## Tyrael (Mar 22, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> I'll have to dig back and see if I can find previous parts. It's good, it's engaging, but walking in on the middle, I don't have much of a sense of where I am and what's going on in the bigger picture.
> 
> Are we allowed to post chapters in our own threads in this section? I saw some others, so I was just kinda wondering.



If you so wish to you could post a whole book in a thread in the LD, as you did in the fanworks section. I also commend you for originality on what i have read of the book of Hondo but it kinda seems to exist inside somewhat of a contradiction-the type of people whom like that sort of humour are unlikely to be engaged by the narrative. Then again, that is based on presumptions so its a flip  of the coin thing.

I liked that piece CTK, this another songfic? The ending was both slightly spooky and had a good cliffhanger feel. Ironically I felt that maybe you needed to show the main character reacting a bit more or put in some direct thoughts or the like from him. The almost purely descriptive style would better fit third person imo.


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## neko-sennin (Mar 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> If you so wish to you could post a whole book in a thread in the LD, as you did in the fanworks section. I also commend you for originality on what i have read of the book of Hondo but it kinda seems to exist inside somewhat of a contradiction-the type of people whom like that sort of humour are unlikely to be engaged by the narrative. Then again, that is based on presumptions so its a flip  of the coin thing.



Yeah, it _is_ kind of a free-floating narrative where reality is a little precarious, that was simply how it came about, probably because that mine and my friends' style of humor, to say nothing of all the inside jokes laced through stuff.

And you've got a good feel for narrative, from what I've read of your book. Feel free to post anything else from it, and I'll be happy to give you my two cents.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 22, 2008)

*Spoiler*: _Random selection because I haven't been in here in awhile_ 



Elsewhere, a servant girl takes a break. Staring into a koi pond she forgets her rough schedule and meaningless life. Casually, she wishes she was one of the fish haplessly swimming in the pond not constantly rushing around answering to peoples whims with no regard for her own. A quiet innocent thought common in her line of work. As a wish in a quiet moment goes she finds herself in a vision of herself as one of the koi in the pond looking up at herself listlessly looking down in the pond. However strange this vision she finds herself in is so realistic, she can feel the water over her body and see, with proper height, the walls and floor of the pond. Happy to live her wish only for a moment she zips around the pond with an unusual vigor chasing around all the other fish like a puppy with it's kin. For what seems like hours she roams the waters endlessly having the time of her life forgetting her life as a humble servant in Water Lily castle. Until, a strange splashing sound along with a large wave echoed through the pond. It was her body hitting the water. Frantically she swam towards her body hoping to wake up, but she could not.  Smacking into her body as if it would transfer her soul back, she panicked.  Her face remained empty there were no bubbles rising from her mouth. The look in her eyes was frozen. After seeing the image of her face darkness overcame her and she met her end.


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## Tyrael (Mar 22, 2008)

Ouch, grim and could use some surreal imagery; but it got the point across. There was a strange lack of punctuation as well and felt like it needed developed a bit more-as a core it is interesting and effective.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> If you so wish to you could post a whole book in a thread in the LD, as you did in the fanworks section. I also commend you for originality on what i have read of the book of Hondo but it kinda seems to exist inside somewhat of a contradiction-the type of people whom like that sort of humour are unlikely to be engaged by the narrative. Then again, that is based on presumptions so its a flip  of the coin thing.
> 
> I liked that piece CTK, this another songfic? The ending was both slightly spooky and had a good cliffhanger feel. Ironically I felt that maybe you needed to show the main character reacting a bit more or put in some direct thoughts or the like from him. The almost purely descriptive style would better fit third person imo.



It's not a song fic, but the opening line was sort of in a song; "There's a tear in the fabric, of your favorite and I'm sneaking glances." It was in a Death Cab For A Cutie Song. 

Yeah I need to adjust the description, but I will do that when I edit it. I think most of the time the story isn't that descriptive.


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## Tyrael (Mar 22, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Yeah, it _is_ kind of a free-floating narrative where reality is a little precarious, that was simply how it came about, probably because that mine and my friends' style of humor, to say nothing of all the inside jokes laced through stuff.
> 
> And you've got a good feel for narrative, from what I've read of your book. Feel free to post anything else from it, and I'll be happy to give you my two cents.



Thanks alot, I will probably post more.


Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It's not a song fic, but the opening line was sort of in a song; "There's a tear in the fabric, of your favorite and I'm sneaking glances." It was in a Death Cab For A Cutie Song.
> 
> Yeah I need to adjust the description, but I will do that when I edit it. I think most of the time the story isn't that descriptive.



Apart from the dialogue and a few passages of reflection it seemed like solid description of physical and actions-keep in mind I am just saying what I would want to see stylistically so feel free to completely ignore that idea. It would be one hell o' a boring world were we to all be the same. Also, a lot of the lines had a rhythm that made me think they were from a song as well.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Ouch, grim and could use some surreal imagery; but it got the point across. There was a strange lack of punctuation as well and felt like it needed developed a bit more-as a core it is interesting and effective.



 Punctuation problems probably happened because it went longer than I intended  it to. Ultimately, this might be discarded because I can't seem to effectively connect it to anything and when I tried to connect it to something it degraded into a somewhat of a non-sequitar that would have really derailed my plans into an unfun place with a theme I know too little about.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 22, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> *Spoiler*: _Random selection because I haven't been in here in awhile_
> 
> 
> 
> Elsewhere, a servant girl takes a break. Staring into a koi pond she forgets her rough schedule and meaningless life. Casually, she wishes she was one of the fish haplessly swimming in the pond not constantly rushing around answering to peoples whims with no regard for her own. A quiet innocent thought common in her line of work. As a wish in a quiet moment goes she finds herself in a vision of herself as one of the koi in the pond looking up at herself listlessly looking down in the pond. However strange this vision she finds herself in is so realistic, she can feel the water over her body and see, with proper height, the walls and floor of the pond. Happy to live her wish only for a moment she zips around the pond with an unusual vigor chasing around all the other fish like a puppy with it's kin. For what seems like hours she roams the waters endlessly having the time of her life forgetting her life as a humble servant in Water Lily castle. Until, a strange splashing sound along with a large wave echoed through the pond. It was her body hitting the water. Frantically she swam towards her body hoping to wake up, but she could not.  Smacking into her body as if it would transfer her soul back, she panicked.  Her face remained empty there were no bubbles rising from her mouth. The look in her eyes was frozen. After seeing the image of her face darkness overcame her and she met her end.



Its kind of dark, but I like it. 



Tyrael said:


> Thanks alot, I will probably post more.
> 
> 
> Apart from the dialogue and a few passages of reflection it seemed like solid description of physical and actions-keep in mind I am just saying what I would want to see stylistically so feel free to completely ignore that idea. It would be one hell o' a boring world were we to all be the same. Also, a lot of the lines had a rhythm that made me think they were from a song as well.



Parts seemed rymthmic, but where?


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## neko-sennin (Mar 23, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> *Spoiler*: _Random selection because I haven't been in here in awhile_
> 
> 
> 
> Elsewhere, a servant girl takes a break. Staring into a koi pond she forgets her rough schedule and meaningless life. Casually, she wishes she was one of the fish haplessly swimming in the pond not constantly rushing around answering to peoples whims with no regard for her own. A quiet innocent thought common in her line of work. As a wish in a quiet moment goes she finds herself in a vision of herself as one of the koi in the pond looking up at herself listlessly looking down in the pond. However strange this vision she finds herself in is so realistic, she can feel the water over her body and see, with proper height, the walls and floor of the pond. Happy to live her wish only for a moment she zips around the pond with an unusual vigor chasing around all the other fish like a puppy with it's kin. For what seems like hours she roams the waters endlessly having the time of her life forgetting her life as a humble servant in Water Lily castle. Until, a strange splashing sound along with a large wave echoed through the pond. It was her body hitting the water. Frantically she swam towards her body hoping to wake up, but she could not.  Smacking into her body as if it would transfer her soul back, she panicked.  Her face remained empty there were no bubbles rising from her mouth. The look in her eyes was frozen. After seeing the image of her face darkness overcame her and she met her end.



Eerie... Guess you should watch what you wish for. 

Even if it's not part of a larger story, with a little polish, it would make a cool stand-alone, maybe part of an Oriental-themed fantasy anthology, or something.


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## Batman (Mar 23, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> *Spoiler*: _Random selection because I haven't been in here in awhile_
> 
> 
> 
> Elsewhere, a servant girl takes a break. Staring into a koi pond she forgets her rough schedule and meaningless life. Casually, she wishes she was one of the fish haplessly swimming in the pond not constantly rushing around answering to peoples whims with no regard for her own. A quiet innocent thought common in her line of work. As a wish in a quiet moment goes she finds herself in a vision of herself as one of the koi in the pond looking up at herself listlessly looking down in the pond. However strange this vision she finds herself in is so realistic, she can feel the water over her body and see, with proper height, the walls and floor of the pond. Happy to live her wish only for a moment she zips around the pond with an unusual vigor chasing around all the other fish like a puppy with it's kin. For what seems like hours she roams the waters endlessly having the time of her life forgetting her life as a humble servant in Water Lily castle. Until, a strange splashing sound along with a large wave echoed through the pond. It was her body hitting the water. Frantically she swam towards her body hoping to wake up, but she could not.  Smacking into her body as if it would transfer her soul back, she panicked.  Her face remained empty there were no bubbles rising from her mouth. The look in her eyes was frozen. After seeing the image of her face darkness overcame her and she met her end.



This was good, dark and fulfilling.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 23, 2008)

I'm always thinking that I should write more short tie in stories...I mean they can be a nice fun escape from what I normally do, the big long treks into my character's world pretty much seems to leave just me exhausted. 

I did have something I wanted to say to you all, does anyone have objections to characters based directly on real people?


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## Tyrael (Mar 23, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I'm always thinking that I should write more short tie in stories...I mean they can be a nice fun escape from what I normally do, the big long treks into my character's world pretty much seems to leave just me exhausted.
> 
> I did have something I wanted to say to you all, does anyone have objections to characters based directly on real people?



The most individual and best defined characters are often based on real people-you take a person then interpret and twist that person until they are an origina character. There is only so far your imagination, inevitably, can do; so as much as it is common practice to use landscapes, I say go for it. The one thing I will say is that juxtaposing real people is not a good idea but using them as a ground work was fairly common practice during the novel I have just written.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 23, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> The most individual and best defined characters are often based on real people-you take a person then interpret and twist that person until they are an origina character. There is only so far your imagination, inevitably, can do; so as much as it is common practice to use landscapes, I say go for it. The one thing I will say is that juxtaposing real people is not a good idea but using them as a ground work was fairly common practice during the novel I have just written.



Well many of my characters, including the main ones are based on real people. There's even a character based on myself, my best friends and some other people I have met and found interesting. Of course these characters are usually more extreme than the people they are shadows of. And while they share the same names now, I plan on changing them before doing anything serious with the story.

Also no one I know has magic powers...


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## neko-sennin (Mar 23, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I'm always thinking that I should write more short tie in stories...I mean they can be a nice fun escape from what I normally do, the big long treks into my character's world pretty much seems to leave just me exhausted.



I sometimes take "breaks" in between major segments of my current project, a series much bigger and more ambitious than Hondo was, even predating it, and that's when I wrote those short stories from the other thread. In fact, one of them, "The Road Trip" set, is actually connected to the same world as my larger story.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I did have something I wanted to say to you all, does anyone have objections to characters based directly on real people?



Not really. All characters and relationships have some basis in personal experience, and many of my characters are loosely based on either people I've known, or characters from other stories. On a certain level, it's impossible to avoid. The trick lies in finding the true nature of your own character; no matter how closely it may have been based on a real person, there comes a point where the character has to stand on his/her own, or even if no one accuses you of copying something else, it likely won't ring true anyway, and most people won't find that character very engaging, anyway. A cast full of cardboard cutouts will sink any novel, no matter how interesting the story, cool the action, or intricate the plot. I learned that the hard way from a book I wrote a first draft of in high school, which all of my friends treated like torture to have to read. In short, the less your original inspiration "shows" itself, the better.


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## Tyrael (Mar 23, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well many of my characters, including the main ones are based on real people. There's even a character based on myself, my best friends and some other people I have met and found interesting. Of course these characters are usually more extreme than the people they are shadows of. And while they share the same names now, I plan on changing them before doing anything serious with the story



The end result is what counts.

Oh yeah and that mini-story idea is a good one for getting a better sense of character and setting as well as being notably easier and more enjoyable.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Also no one I know has magic powers...



Foolish mortal, cannot see what is before your very eyes. Er...fair enough.



neko-sennin said:


> A cast full of cardboard cutouts will sink any novel



You'd be surprised. Ever heard of Trudi Canavan? Her novels are actually alright reads but each character has only one badly illustrated trait seperating them generally.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 23, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> I sometimes take "breaks" in between major segments of my current project, a series much bigger and more ambitious than Hondo was, even predating it, and that's when I wrote those short stories from the other thread. In fact, one of them, "The Road Trip" set, is actually connected to the same world as my larger story.



My story is actually the kind of thing where I could write a whole world and cast of characters from all different kinds of walks of life. I don't know if I can describe the depth I could go to with this, but I wouldn't. 

I do plan on having offshoot characters with their own stories and stuff here and there. 



neko-sennin said:


> Not really. All characters and relationships have some basis in personal experience, and many of my characters are loosely based on either people I've known, or characters from other stories. On a certain level, it's impossible to avoid. The trick lies in finding the true nature of your own character; no matter how closely it may have been based on a real person, there comes a point where the character has to stand on his/her own, or even if no one accuses you of copying something else, it likely won't ring true anyway, and most people won't find that character very engaging, anyway. A cast full of cardboard cutouts will sink any novel, no matter how interesting the story, cool the action, or intricate the plot. I learned that the hard way from a book I wrote a first draft of in high school, which all of my friends treated like torture to have to read. In short, the less your original inspiration "shows" itself, the better.



I've gotten plenty of people saying they found the story enjoyable and fun to read, and they seemed pretty sincere because they had complaints but they were nothing I couldn't fix with light editing. I think my most truthful readers are my friend Kay and Kaitlyn (Littleblondepunk from here at NF) they helped me the most. 

Littleblondepunk actually ended up having a character based on her later down the line, and I'm pretty fond of the character myself. 

I think since the story is about the supernatural its kind of better for it, but if it were about every day situations or real life, I wouldn't base them on real people more than likely.



Tyrael said:


> The end result is what counts.
> 
> Oh yeah and that mini-story idea is a good one for getting a better sense of character and setting as well as being notably easier and more enjoyable.



Oh yeah, you know its funny, I kind of come from this Joss Whedon school of thought about plot, I try to make the characters lives living Hell and while things get better from time to time, it always slumps back down and gets far worse. I want them going to the breaking point, I got it mostly from watching season 4 of Angel where you never could be sure just how bad things would get.


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## Tyrael (Mar 23, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Oh yeah, you know its funny, I kind of come from this Joss Whedon school of thought about plot, I try to make the characters lives living Hell and while things get better from time to time, it always slumps back down and gets far worse. I want them going to the breaking point, I got it mostly from watching season 4 of Angel where you never could be sure just how bad things would get.



If you can endear your characters to the reader then putting them through a living hell will have everyone hanging onto their seats. The status quo/happy moments are important as it is them that give the hell meaning. I try to keep in mind classic narrative structures and why they work when writing, even should I totally ignore them.

Also, I've decided to write an epic poem. Yeah, don't ask why. 'Cause quite frankly I don't know.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 23, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> If you can endear your characters to the reader then putting them through a living hell will have everyone hanging onto their seats. The status quo/happy moments are important as it is them that give the hell meaning. I try to keep in mind classic narrative structures and why they work when writing, even should I totally ignore them.
> 
> Also, I've decided to write an epic poem. Yeah, don't ask why. 'Cause quite frankly I don't know.



I think I realized that things were pretty bad for my characters when I sat down and thought about the forces at work against them, it gets to the point where you wonder how they could ever fight back with such a small force. Which is kind of how I devised some of the characters having powers.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 23, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> If you can endear your characters to the reader then putting them through a living hell will have everyone hanging onto their seats. The status quo/happy moments are important as it is them that give the hell meaning. I try to keep in mind classic narrative structures and why they work when writing, even should I totally ignore them.
> 
> Also, I've decided to write an epic poem. Yeah, don't ask why. 'Cause quite frankly I don't know.



My characters start out as dreary as dreary can be. Except Gohei, but he's the exception to alot of things.  Probably why people like him the best.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 23, 2008)

The character everyone fancies in my story is Dee, she's sexy, ditzy yet smart, and kind of a bad ass.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 23, 2008)

Gohei is a somewhat assholish, badass soldier who chainsmokes.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 23, 2008)

Mine actually chain smokes too...I think I will post something:


*Spoiler*: __ 



As the Dragon landed it roared and Dee took the opportunity to rush the massive behemoth. She took a few pot shots at the thing as she ran around one side of it. We all attempted to cover her, everyone opened fire. But the would-be mythical creature swung its wings open and knocked Dee flipping up into the air. The Desert Eagle came out of her hand and landed on some rocks. She went over the edge of the fissure and down into the pit.


            ?Holy shit!? Vanessa screamed, the Dragon fired at her and she dove off to the side and landed in one of the still intact fountains.


            I cried out, ?Dee,? I was blinded with tears still, ?No!? I ran to the edge of the hole and glanced down, she was no where to be found, just coursing magma deep down. I turned, my face stained with tears and grabbed the Desert Eagle up off the rocks.


            Prentiss was by my side suddenly firing, ?This thing is like a tank!? 


            I pushed Prentiss aside and aimed both of the guns at the creature, ?Goddamn you!? I held the triggers until the guns went dry. Each bullet slammed into the dragon and it seemed mildly phased if it was at all.


            Vanessa jumped onto the back of the Dragon, ?I?ll try to find some weak spot but I don?t think this will be easy!? 


            I popped a fresh clip into the gun, the sounds from here on out were just a blur, blood running from my cheek and my nose didn?t mean shit now. That poor little girl was gone.


            I fired at the Dragon with a newfound recklessness, a long scream coming from somewhere deep inside of me. The bullets had no effect, and in the end I hit Vanessa knocking her off the back of the Dragon. She landed side first in some rubble. My guns ran dry and those were the last clips I had. The guns clicked one final time and opened up to be reloaded. 


            It seemed to be over now, Prentiss stepped in at my side, ?Get back!? he yelled at me.


            The Dragon slammed its head into him knocking him back into Stroud knocking him into the side of the turnstile. He landed and was knocked out instantly. I couldn?t run for his gun, I couldn?t move. I was frozen there. The creature now brought its face down even with mine. It walked with thuds and its massive weight seemed to shake the world.


            I dropped to my knees, preparing for my inevitable end. I knew now I wouldn?t be able to save my daughter, I only hoped that The Child would be kind enough to help her anyway.


            I closed my eyes and wept openly, ?God?please let my little girl live.?


            There was a sharp grunt and a tremendous impact sound, I opened
my eyes to see Edward St. John following through on a devastating punch that sent the Dragon?s head off to the side hard. 


            Vanessa was back on her feet, she got right up next to us, ?We need to finish this off fast!?


            Edward looked Vanessa over, ?You?re a Vampire right?? he asked, she nodded, ?can you throw me??


            She shrugged, ?I guess?? no sooner than had she finished, he pulled his sword, jumped up onto her shoulder and she bounded him off of her and into the air. He sailed across taking a huge slice at the neck of the Dragon. He landed on the other side of the creature, but the sword slash didn?t do as much as I am guessing he hoped it will.


            I was still reeling, I felt cold and hot at the same time, ?What now??


            ?Give me a crack at the big bastard,? I looked back to see Dee standing on the edge of the fissure with her legs open in a fighting stance. Her body was steaming, so much that it just had to be hot to the touch.


            ?How did you?? was all I could manage to say.


            ?I lied again?I?m not exactly Human,? she replied holding a cigarette up to her lips now and taking a drag. Her hand went out to her side and she called out, ?Come to my side!?


            In a flash of light a huge ornate looking scythe appeared in her hand, it was a beautiful shimmering weapon. She twirled it expertly around her body and then let it go, the scythe-staff orbited her as if it were trained to. She rushed in and the Dragon dropped its head down as if it were going to attack her. But before it could the scythe deflected it and she caught the weapon and threw it up into the air at a sharp angle. 


            Just as the thing left her hands she was gone in a burst of dark purplish light and all that was left of her were some single floating white feathers. All of us, the Dragon included searched around for where she might have vanished to and in one flash or a moment, we knew. 


            The scythe pierced through the head of the Dragon and Dee stood there, atop the weapon, ?This will teach you to knock me into lava, you ass!? she stood on the blade of the scythe. Her next action was to jump down and pull the scythe free. She looked at herself in the reflective blade, ?Aw, look at this my hair is a mess and I am sure my makeup melted off.?


            ?Dee?what are you?? I asked.


            ?Well my name isn?t really Dee, Dee?s a nickname, but only because it sounds kind of odd when someone calls you Death in public,? she said, ?It sort of blows my whole cover things??


            Vanessa walked closer to her, ?You?re the Angel of Death??


            Dee nodded, ?But like I said, I prefer Dee.?


            Edward looked her over, ?Why did you come here?? 


            ?I did the whole transubstantiation thing, kind of nerfs my power, but I was charged with guiding a very important group toward completing the task at hand?? Dee said.  


            ?Which would be?? Vanessa asked.


            ?I can?t say?? she paused, ?He really does work in mysterious ways!?


            I stepped forward some, ?You mean God??


            She nodded, the scythe vanished from her hand into thin air.


            The ground began to shake again, harder this time and, ?What?s happening!?? Prentiss was beginning to come to. 


            Suddenly there was an explosion of rocks that rained down all over us. I got to the ground and there was just a rain of rocks. Screaming seemed to come from everywhere and before I could see who it was or how to help them a huge wave that just seemed like raw energy shot out from the fissure and I blacked out again.


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## Tyrael (Mar 25, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Mine actually chain smokes too...I think I will post something:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



It's got a fast pace but the narrative seems to stutter somewhat-possibly this is intended but I always think action needs to have a flow, even if it is a highly confusing. There was a chaos in that scene that did seem appropriate and the well orchestrated as well as the way the protagonist is overwhelmed. Some of the dialogue did not really work however.

Oh and your avi/sig is really scary.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 25, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> It's got a fast pace but the narrative seems to stutter somewhat-possibly this is intended but I always think action needs to have a flow, even if it is a highly confusing. There was a chaos in that scene that did seem appropriate and the well orchestrated as well as the way the protagonist is overwhelmed. Some of the dialogue did not really work however.
> 
> Oh and your avi/sig is really scary.




I didn't really look over this before posting it, but I had a feeling I need to work on some of the dialog. I think there are things that I might just drop out all together. But its funny because my climaxes come as revelations in the story, not actual action. In this one its action, but there's a lot of action here anyway. but I will more than likely have to go through and edit this some more because it was the last part of the story and the only part of that one not to get a light edit.

*Edit:  *Why is she scary lol, I think she's gorgeous.


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## Tyrael (Mar 25, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I didn't really look over this before posting it, but I had a feeling I need to work on some of the dialog. I think there are things that I might just drop out all together. But its funny because my climaxes come as revelations in the story, not actual action. In this one its action, but there's a lot of action here anyway. but I will more than likely have to go through and edit this some more because it was the last part of the story and the only part of that one not to get a light edit.
> 
> *Edit:  *Why is she scary lol, I think she's gorgeous.



I've seen her in a few other of your sigs/avis and she ain't half attractive, but that particularly photo is very scary-I think it is the eyes. There is something the composition of photo and her make-up that is ridiculously creepy.

I think climaxing a book with action is, dependent on genre, one of the best ways to do it. Jordan's first four books show it in fantasy, although on the flipside GRRM's Game of Thrones kinda failed on that respect. I guess how the book ends depends on the rest of the book. Do look at the narrative flow in that section you posted as it does seem to stutter a bit.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 25, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I've seen her in a few other of your sigs/avis and she ain't half attractive, but that particularly photo is very scary-I think it is the eyes. There is something the composition of photo and her make-up that is ridiculously creepy.
> 
> I think climaxing a book with action is, dependent on genre, one of the best ways to do it. Jordan's first four books show it in fantasy, although on the flipside GRRM's Game of Thrones kinda failed on that respect. I guess how the book ends depends on the rest of the book. Do look at the narrative flow in that section you posted as it does seem to stutter a bit.



Its mostly make up really, but I think I just like the gothic look and she has it, although she is mostly cheery. 

Stutter? as in repeat things?


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## Tyrael (Mar 25, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Its mostly make up really, but I think I just like the gothic look and she has it, although she is mostly cheery.
> 
> Stutter? as in repeat things?



There is about that photo that makes her look almost like a doll-that's probs. it.

I think it might be my dislike of an overuse of the word "and" as well as the fact there are a few words which are either the same or similar that is repeated close together. Just a lack of flow at parts tbh-if you want I'll pick parts out of the text to show you.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 25, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> There is about that photo that makes her look almost like a doll-that's probs. it.
> 
> I think it might be my dislike of an overuse of the word "and" as well as the fact there are a few words which are either the same or similar that is repeated close together. Just a lack of flow at parts tbh-if you want I'll pick parts out of the text to show you.



Hmm alright: 

Show me please.


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## Tyrael (Mar 25, 2008)

I'll preface this by saying these are stylistic traits, therefore hardly definitive but:



> But the would-be mythical creature swung its wings open and knocked Dee flipping up into the air. The Desert Eagle came out of her hand and landed on some rocks. She went over the edge of the fissure and down into the pit.
> 
> “Holy shit!” Vanessa screamed, the Dragon fired at her and she dove off to the side and landed in one of the still intact fountains.



"And" is good for making a scene seemed rushed and busy but I found that there was too much of it here, made it seem like a list almost, thus kinda giving a staccato feel to the action.  



> The Dragon slammed its head into him knocking him back into Stroud knocking him into the side of the turnstile. He landed and was knocked out instantly.



Yeah, repetition of knock-when it sticks out at your reader then it needs remedied.



> In a flash of light a huge ornate looking scythe appeared in her hand, it was a beautiful shimmering weapon. She twirled it expertly around her body and then let it go, the scythe-staff orbited her as if it were trained to.



More detail than, in the hurriedness of battle, he' be able take in-a fuller description of the weapon should either filter subtly through the text or be elaborated on after the battle.

Not exactly huge details but just little things I feel justify a closer look. As i mentioned before it suggests I did think it was good piece and these are merely my opinion, so feel free to cast them aside.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 26, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I'll preface this by saying these are stylistic traits, therefore hardly definitive but:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I actually will look over all of this and correct these things, seeing if I can make this all better. I mean that's what we're all here for is to learn to be better writers and share our work for help with others.


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## Batman (Mar 26, 2008)

Format is such a pain! I supposes I should just get used to it, when trying to create the proper style of a manuscript, but it's still a pain. Though once everything is neat, it is somewhat satisfying.


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## Tyrael (Mar 26, 2008)

Batman said:


> Format is such a pain! I supposes I should just get used to it, when trying to create the proper style of a manuscript, but it's still a pain. Though once everything is neat, it is somewhat satisfying.



Proper format? I just justify everything and leave it at that, although I've always wondered what the professional parameters are.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 26, 2008)

I've stopped indenting my new paragraphs.


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## neko-sennin (Mar 26, 2008)

Well, CTK, it looks like Tyrael's got the technical editing end of things down around here, but I'll be the first to admit that action scenes can be some of the most difficult to do. I wrote an entire book in high school, which was mostly an action/comedy, yet most of the action sequences were written in such detail from move to the next, that my betas told me it would make a better screenplay treatment than a novel.  It was a problem that continued to hound me in future works, trying to figure out how to translate the often fast-paced fight choreography into something wouldn't read "slow" in written form, and I think I'm finally starting grasp it. Because I'm sure we can all agree that the one thing an action scene _shouldn't_ be described as boring. Fortunately, your climactic battle scene did have a climactic feel, especially with its increasingly hopeless spiral until Dee jumped back in to kick some ass.



Tyrael said:


> I think climaxing a book with action is, dependent on genre, one of the best ways to do it.



I agree. And even if it's not an action story, the climax should still involve someone _doing_ something compelling, narratively powerful in terms of the events leading up to it. Throughout most of my series, which is primarily an adventure story, that I'm working on, the climax of most sections usually involves either a battle, or taking some other kind of risk.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Its mostly make up really, but I think I just like the Gothic look and she has it, although she is mostly cheery.



Yeah, although she does remind me a little of Dream's older sister, Death, from Neil Gaiman's "Sandman" comics, though instead of a cross, she wears an ankh. (And no, I'm not accusing you of ripping her off, just pointing out the similarities in case you weren't familiar with that series.) Though I have to admit, I've never seen _Death_ open a can of whoop-ass like that before! :amazed


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## Lord Yu (Mar 26, 2008)

My story is action heavy and dialogue heavy. I haven't quite mastered the art of dialogue integration but action I think I have down.


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## Tyrael (Mar 26, 2008)

Since we are on the subject of actions scenes, what do people think of this:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Vincent drew his own blade, handling the heavy sword with well practised ease. Hunter still had not moved. Vincent took his position, slowly, glancing between both Ronin and Hunter.

?What is to stop me from shooting you?? Hunter was the one to break the silence smiling at Vincent?s sword..

?Her,? answered Vincent and struck.

The thrust missed, Hunter dancing easily out of the way. A handgun had appeared in his hand sending an eardrum shattering bang through Vincent. But no bullet.

They were in a bubble of sorts, a blue dome projected around them. It was Jessica?s power, there was a rejection of anything that had functionality within the proximity. Everything not actively alive ceased to work. The fact that it had made a sound meant she was almost too late. Vincent took advantage and attacked again.

This time Vincent?s assault was met by two knives, as he heard the clatter of the dropped gun. Both stood locked, Hunter had caught Vincent?s sword in a v between the two blades but dared not attempt to disengage. Vincent was unable the barrier of steel presented to him.

Desperately, mind bouncing around inside his skull, he tried to recall Hunter?s power. He could feel a strength that should have been impossible for a man of his opponent?s stature but he knew there was more. More likely than not his life depended on his memory. In the intensity of the deadlock it overturned nothing.

?Take Ronin and go!?

?No!? Hunter turned away from him.

He moved immediately, pushing his blade forward. The blade screeched off past the two knives and caught Hunter a glancing blow on the left shoulder. A second blow, horizontally arcing towards his opponent?s right ribs was parried and Hunter lunged. Vincent moved quickly and the knife missed the right side of his torso, leaving his opponent open. Vincent brought his sword upon his opponent?s already injured shoulder.

Hunter stabbed wildly at him with the knife in his right arm but Vincent caught his opponents wrist while still moving through the air. Hunter physically shrugged himself out of the grapple and staggered backwards. His navy blue top swelled black like a bruise around the wound. He dropped the knife in the corresponding hand.

I?m winning: Vincent cut through the ecstasy of the thought with cynicism. How the hell am I winning?

The bubble was still active around the two and Jessica seemed to be training her vision on the gun, prone on the ground between them.

Vincent struck again, falling far short of Hunter; if he could destroy the gun then Jessica could run. Shards went flying as blade collided with the gun.

Hunter had retreated to where Ronin stood in a semi-trance. The boy looked as if he had just come off  halfway through a factory conveyer belt and had the missed the part where he was given a brain. The erratic movements in his eyes were all that marked him out beyond a biological statue.

?Go Jessica!? he knew he could not keep worrying about her. He needed a clear mind for this fight.

Hunter dived at her but Vincent intercepted him catching the knife in his good arm so it was knocked loose from his hand. With Hunter?s disarming he had, for a second, won.

Pain from the soles of his feet shook him. He was as well as fighting with both his feet skewered. Tacks-he must have used tacks. A cautious scan of the showed nothing. Hunter retrieved his knife. He could not move to stop him, the pain was blurring his vision. He would not be able to defend himself against Hunter?s attacks. He was going to die. It seemed an oddly in inconsequential thought next the sensation in his feet. 

?What?s wrong Vincent?? Jessica must have seen the pain on his face.

?Stick behind me!? No point in her running now. She would be easy prey.

He felt Jessica catch him as he fell to his knees. His weight dragged her down as well.

?When he stabs me run.? It was all he could do, use his death to buy her life.

?No.? It sounded like she was crying.

Hunter stood over both of them: his face showed something between a smile and a grimace. ?I will never understand those who cast off modern technology to fight with swords. I daresay the world could afford to lose another one of such a person.?

An explosion reached his ears.

?What,? he heard Hunter roar as he was obscured by a curtain of dust. Concrete and masonry flew through the air. 

Vincent realised the pain had vanished along with Hunter. The sound of a thud smashed into his right ear. Jessica, still holding onto him, slumped around his shoulders: unconscious. He bit his lip, grabbed her, and ran into the disappearing maelstrom.

As he ran he caught a glimpse of the a large figure on all fours. Ballac


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## Batman (Mar 26, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> My story is action heavy and dialogue heavy. I haven't quite mastered the art of dialogue integration but action I think I have down.



I'm about the same. Dialog is getting better, but action scenes come more naturally to me.


@Tyrael - I really liked that. The tonality of it was enjoyable, interesting and quick. It was only during a few instances where the fight felt a bit too overwritten, where I wanted you to pull it back, leave a bit more to the imagination. And there were a few times phrases during the dialog that were confusing. Its hard convey but it felt like you needed to take away some word, overall. After that I wanted you to add a bit more style to your descriptions, so it doesn't start to feel like a  list. I was excited from the get go, deeply interested, but then after so many details of the action it felt a bit like _and then he did this, and then he did that, and then they did this. _

Sometimes I wanted you to just let go and let the words hit you as they may.

But once again, I really liked that sequence. And tacks on the feet. . . I was wincing just imagining it.


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## neko-sennin (Mar 26, 2008)

@Tyrael: That was pretty cool. And, in all actuality, not as stiff as parts of CTK's "Dragon" battle were. Just as a comparison between the two stories, this one also captures much greater intensity in the combat, perhaps as a result of two _people_ squaring off against each other, instead of the dragon, not to dis the "Dragon" story or anything, as I also really enjoyed that one, too. Just that here there was more of a near-even-pitched battle of wills rather than a desperate struggle to survive against a monster, so it will have a different vibe.

On a side note, I also admire how you managed to keep such an intense martial arts battle flowing fairly smoothly throughout most of it. I can tell you from many pages of past experience that it's not always easy. The real trick, I've come to think, lies in figuring out what parts are most important to convey, and what aspects of the fighting style and individual strokes are best left to the reader's imagination in order to keep the narrative flowing as fast as the battle.


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## Einstein (Mar 26, 2008)

I completely agree with Batman, Tyrael. That was great. Only thing I say is that you said that Hunter has a knife in his right arm. That gave me the impression that he had been stabbed in the arm with a knife and was now using whatever was sticking out of his arm as a weapon. I got what you meant, but at first it kinda shook me. People normally just say 'in his right hand', but I suppose it's just a choice of words.
-------------------------------
Could some of you read this for me and tell me what you think. I jsut wrote this, as in about two minutes ago I finished, so I did no editing, no reading over, no nothing. Could you tell em what you think ("You need to proofread before submitting next time!" is accepted as well) It's pretty short, compared to other stuff I write. 490 words.


*Spoiler*: _Weatherman_ 




It’s always sunny when he plays. He stands right there on Tombé Boulevard amidst the ladies and gents hurriedly walking to their jobs, and the very small children running around his shadows, dancing to his music. I wouldn’t call it dancing; they were just moving because music was playing. Jumping, clapping, laughing. He stood there right in the middle of this huge distraction and kept on playing. It probably helped that he closed his eyes. He never played with his eyes open. Even if you yelled in his ear, which my little brother did because he had no regard for the man.

The man played his violin all day and into the night, fast and slow. The faster he slid the bow against the strings, the brighter the sun dared to shine. But as the day went by, he got slower and slower, until eventually the beautiful noises came to a stop and the sky was full of blackness. At first I didn’t know how he did it, how he timed his notes perfectly with the sun. But then I came to a most absolute conclusion.

“You can predict the weather can’t you? Make it rain. I know you can,” I said to him one day Mid-April. He started playing back in January. January 21st, actually. I remember, because he started playing on my birthday. I woke to a sound I could only identify as sex at the time. “Who is that having sex with the angels of sound?” I asked my mother. She looked at me as if to say,  What kind of lady are you to talk like that. Then she smiled and said Happy Birthday.

Every day that year so far, it rained. Then he came, and the rain stopped. It seized every time he raised his bow. So I stood in front of this man, who was playing his Sex Music. Fast, fun, sneaky sex. I asked him to make it rain, and he opened his eyes. He dropped the arm that held the bow, then lifted his head a little and moved the violin from under his chin. He looked at me but said nothing.

And that was just as fine, because he was as beautiful in silence as when in music.

We stood there for a short while, then I felt small droplets of water hit the top of my head. I didn’t even look up. I just kept trying to read behind his eyes. He looked like he was beckoning me to ask him something else, but I wouldn’t. I curtly walked away like a young lady and was determined to admire from afar from now on instead of make a fool out of myself any more. 

I never told anyone that he was the Weatherman. He wouldn’t want me to. But, how would the weather be if I killed the Weatherman? Would it rain forever again? I’m actually quite fond of rain.


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## Tyrael (Mar 26, 2008)

Einstein said:


> I completely agree with Batman, Tyrael. That was great. Only thing I say is that you said that Hunter has a knife in his right arm. That gave me the impression that he had been stabbed in the arm with a knife and was now using whatever was sticking out of his arm as a weapon. I got what you meant, but at first it kinda shook me. People normally just say 'in his right hand', but I suppose it's just a choice of words.
> -------------------------------
> Could some of you read this for me and tell me what you think. I jsut wrote this, as in about two minutes ago I finished, so I did no editing, no reading over, no nothing. Could you tell em what you think ("You need to proofread before submitting next time!" is accepted as well) It's pretty short, compared to other stuff I write. 490 words.
> 
> ...



You need to proofread before submitting next time! 

Interesting piece, the mysterious and reflective tone worked well. The description of the children in the second sentence threw me off as it looked it was parenthesised therefore using 'and' instead of a comma would make it flow better. Otherwise it seemed very polished. You may want to express the symbolism of the music and rain with a little more clarity though, not sure I got exactly what you were trying to get at

Oh and thanks a lot to everyone who read and commented on my extract, I'm glad (and surprised) it got such positive reviews despite being in need of a bit of an edit.


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## neko-sennin (Mar 26, 2008)

Wow, Einstein, that was really eerie, and somewhat surreal. It sounds like the intro to a potentially intriguing, possibly even folk-tragic tale. And I must say that, for having no prior editing or polishing, most of your words fell very neatly into place, a vision fully formed when you sculpted it.


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## Einstein (Mar 26, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> You need to proofread before submitting next time!
> 
> Interesting piece, the mysterious and reflective tone worked well. The description of the children in the second sentence threw me off as it looked it was parenthesised therefore using 'and' instead of a comma would make it flow better. Otherwise it seemed very polished. You may want to express the symbolism of the music and rain with a little more clarity though, not sure I got exactly what you were trying to get at


I understand what you mean by the second sentence. 

I wasn't really trying to get at anything. I just read The Vampire Lestat by Anne Rice, and her character Nicolas de Lenfent inspired to write about something having to do with a violin. Then I began thinking of what I'd do if I met a street violinist, then I began wondering what he would if it rained, then I realized that he'd never be out in the rain, then I wondered why, and then I deduced that violists could control the rain, and I remembered that I wanted to write a story about a violin and I used that idea. I took about three days to think through all of this, and I only wrote this little 

I realize that I made it sound symbolic, especially with the ending, but it was just me trying to write about something. Can that be a bad thing?



> Oh and thanks a lot to everyone who read and commented on my extract, I'm glad (and surprised) it got such positive reviews despite being in need of a bit of an edit.


That's the first thing you've written that I've read (I'm not sure if you've ever posted more, though) and I found the edits you needed to be very few, and it was still very well worth the read in spite of that.



			
				neko-sennin said:
			
		

> Wow, Einstein, that was really eerie, and somewhat surreal. It sounds like the intro to a potentially intriguing, possibly even folk-tragic tale. And I must say that, for having no prior editing or polishing, most of your words feel very neatly into place, a vision fully formed when you sculpted it.


Thanks 
About the intro part, I was originally debating whether or not I should make it into something longer. But I just don't know. Sometimes things are better being short and leaving people thinking, you know?


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## Batman (Mar 26, 2008)

Einstein said:


> Could some of you read this for me and tell me what you think. I jsut wrote this, as in about two minutes ago I finished, so I did no editing, no reading over, no nothing. Could you tell em what you think ("You need to proofread before submitting next time!" is accepted as well) It's pretty short, compared to other stuff I write. 490 words.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Weatherman_
> ...



It was so good! I enjoyed that immensely.  It might sounds like I'm just heaping praise but it got me in that spot, that rare spot where I didn't want to stop reading. Not in the slightest.

It also makes me want to try harder, if I'm ever hoping to keep up with you.  Whens _your_ book coming out?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 26, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Well, CTK, it looks like Tyrael's got the technical editing end of things down around here, but I'll be the first to admit that action scenes can be some of the most difficult to do. I wrote an entire book in high school, which was mostly an action/comedy, yet most of the action sequences were written in such detail from move to the next, that my betas told me it would make a better screenplay treatment than a novel.  It was a problem that continued to hound me in future works, trying to figure out how to translate the often fast-paced fight choreography into something wouldn't read "slow" in written form, and I think I'm finally starting grasp it. Because I'm sure we can all agree that the one thing an action scene _shouldn't_ be described as boring. Fortunately, your climactic battle scene did have a climactic feel, especially with its increasingly hopeless spiral until Dee jumped back in to kick some ass.



Dee was the ace in the hole, her time in the story she poses as this innocent little thing with no fighting skill. I don't think a single reader has figured out that she was Death and fireproof on top of that.





neko-sennin said:


> I agree. And even if it's not an action story, the climax should still involve someone _doing_ something compelling, narratively powerful in terms of the events leading up to it. Throughout most of my series, which is primarily an adventure story, that I'm working on, the climax of most sections usually involves either a battle, or taking some other kind of risk.



Well I think that's always true. But actions can be revelations. 



neko-sennin said:


> Yeah, although she does remind me a little of Dream's older sister, Death, from Neil Gaiman's "Sandman" comics, though instead of a cross, she wears an ankh. (And no, I'm not accusing you of ripping her off, just pointing out the similarities in case you weren't familiar with that series.) Though I have to admit, I've never seen _Death_ open a can of whoop-ass like that before! :amazed



I get that a lot about the sandman comics, I have never read them or even seen one although someone told me the guy from Constantine comes from them. The girl in my signature is actually a friend of mine though and she's cosplaying a vampire character that she made up in that picture. My Dee has curlier hair, but that's sort of how she would look, only with a lot of crossed all over and some other minor changes. 



Lord Yu said:


> My story is action heavy and dialogue heavy. I haven't quite mastered the art of dialogue integration but action I think I have down.



Dialogue is difficult for most people, I think that most of the time I am good with it, except for when a scene's action requires too much exposition or explanation.

_I actually plan to go back and read over all these people's stuff, just right now I am looking at some other stuff. I will get back to you all soon._


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## Einstein (Mar 26, 2008)

Batman said:


> It was so good! I enjoyed that immensely.  It might sounds like I'm just heaping praise but it got me in that spot, that rare spot where I didn't want to stop reading. Not in the slightest.


Thanks, I'm so glad to hear that you liked it so much. I didn't expect praise that high, you kinda surprised me there. Please do tell, if you can, what you enjoyed most about it. I may sound like I'm being a bit.. nosy.. but I like to know what I do that's good and that's bad. To get (or stay) better, you know?



> It also makes me want to try harder, if I'm ever hoping to keep up with you.  Whens _your_ book coming out?


In complete honesty, I prefer your writing to my own and I remember back when I read that flashfic when the theme was Monster, I felt myself thinking "Now.. how in hell can I get that good?"


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## Batman (Mar 27, 2008)

Einstein said:


> Thanks, I'm so glad to hear that you liked it so much. I didn't expect praise that high, you kinda surprised me there. Please do tell, if you can, what you enjoyed most about it. I may sound like I'm being a bit.. nosy.. but I like to know what I do that's good and that's bad. To get (or stay) better, you know?



What I liked about your work was that it fell into the category of seemingly normal. That just happens to be one of my favorites - when done well - and yours was done splendidly. Why? Because it created a subtle and continuous escalation of problems, secrets, and desires that the characters hungered for. Also because the transition into the "supernatural" was just so, not a sharp left turn, or a sharp right turn, but done in a way where I wasn't quite sure whether it was an actuality.

The few lines before the convincing one, I'm was thinking "Oh, ok. This is metaphor." After this line: *At first I didn?t know how he did it, how he timed his notes perfectly with the sun.*, i'm wondering if its fact. After a time I'm led to believe that it is, and most writers would have been comfortable with that fact. To you, it seemed, that wasn't enough. You took that and escalated, building upon that abnormality by adding more problems, more issues. The child's curiosity. The childs request and or demand. And then the ending.

*But, how would the weather be if I killed the Weatherman? Would it rain forever again? I?m actually quite fond of rain.* It's an unanswered question that is just satisfying enough to be unsatisfying, in that good way. I wanted more, but I could also be content with this as an ending. Fantastic.

Also, in judging from this piece, you have a lot of style as a writer. Your sentences and paragraphs are very fluid, to the point that the imperfections feel intended.



> In complete honesty, I prefer your writing to my own and I remember back when I read that flashfic when the theme was Monster, I felt myself thinking "Now.. how in hell can I get that good?"


 I'm glad you liked it. That makes me want to work even harder in all aspects of my writing. I think i need to drop in some outside work here so it can get a proper beating. Anyways I look forward to seeing more of your work.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 27, 2008)

Story four has been started it, I've titled it "Forget December" and its using some of the things I was going to use in "Ex Deus" (Story Three). I am actually going to edit and past whole scenes back because I want to use them.


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## Einstein (Mar 27, 2008)

Batman said:


> What I liked about your work was that it fell into the category of seemingly normal. That just happens to be one of my favorites - when done well - and yours was done splendidly. Why? Because it created a subtle and continuous escalation of problems, secrets, and desires that the characters hungered for. Also because the transition into the "supernatural" was just so, not a sharp left turn, or a sharp right turn, but done in a way where I wasn't quite sure whether it was an actuality.
> 
> The few lines before the convincing one, I'm was thinking "Oh, ok. This is metaphor." After this line: *At first I didn’t know how he did it, how he timed his notes perfectly with the sun.*, i'm wondering if its fact. After a time I'm led to believe that it is, and most writers would have been comfortable with that fact. To you, it seemed, that wasn't enough. You took that and escalated, building upon that abnormality by adding more problems, more issues. The child's curiosity. The childs request and or demand. And then the ending.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that. It made me see a lot of [good] things I was doing that I wasn't noticing. It makes me want to keep on going. I didn't plan on it because I didn't think many would like it (irl and internet). I don't think I'll continue though, because some things are better short, so I heard.



> I'm glad you liked it. That makes me want to work even harder in all aspects of my writing. I think i need to drop in some outside work here so it can get a proper beating. Anyways I look forward to seeing more of your work.


I wouldn't say it would get a beating, but I look forward to seeing some more of your work


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## Lord Yu (Mar 27, 2008)

I thought that selection flowed so natural. Class stuff.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 27, 2008)

I think I remember you being here before, good to see you back. I think when you have enough artists and creative people together, you're going to get some being pretentious. Its like I heard someone say they don't accept criticism on their stories...what is that crap?


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## Tyrael (Mar 27, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I think I remember you being here before, good to see you back. I think when you have enough artists and creative people together, you're going to get some being pretentious. Its like I heard someone say they don't accept criticism on their stories...what is that crap?



Whereabout in this thread? Can't remember that (unless I was the one being pretentious).


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## Catterix (Mar 27, 2008)

Nah it wasn't you. One of the people had a Luffy avatar, that's all I remember 

But yeah, not accepting criticism scares me, the whole concept of it. So long as it's creative, I kind of want to get criticised, I'm always wanting to better myself.

This thread is pretty inspirational, there's so many talented people here.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 27, 2008)

I don't know like examples of exactly where it happened, but I was just stating that when you have groups of artists its common to see some of them act in a pretentious matter.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 27, 2008)

One guy PM'd me once and insulted a piece I posted. Hell, he even asked if english was my first language.


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## Tyrael (Mar 27, 2008)

Probs before I saw this thread then. I did skim back and find Anne Rice's rant-hilarious stuff. She does have a few validpoints but the assertion that her series "are possibly unparralled" (or somethin' like that) was comedy gold. Reminds me of that Goodkind interview.

I've encountered surprisingly little pretentiousness in this forum save for when I vocalised  (textually) my opinion that GRRM is not living up to his hype. Even then most of the people were willing to debate my views rather than just be pretentious about it.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 27, 2008)

I'd say I'm pretty pretentious and egotistical.


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## Dream Brother (Mar 27, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> One guy PM'd me once and insulted a piece I posted. Hell, he even asked if english was my first language.



Wow. I've never actually seen any idiots (with sole exception of the legendary Diamed) hang around in the LD, and so that's surprising in an unpleasant way.



> I've encountered surprisingly little pretentiousness in this forum save for when I vocalised (textually) my opinion that GRRM is not living up to his hype. Even then most of the people were willing to debate my views rather than just be pretentious about it.



Eesh, I recall that thread -- some people really _did_ flare up, although I think it was more a case of 'approaching a different opinion in an intolerant manner' rather than pretentiousness.


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## Tyrael (Mar 27, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I'd say I'm pretty pretentious and egotistical.



No arguments here. In fact I can be a stuck up bastard when I want to be (and sometimes when I don't want to be). Everyone can be-it's just keeping purely destructive and plain unhelpful/insulting stuff to yourself that is the challenge.



Dream Brother said:


> Eesh, I recall that thread -- some people really _did_ flare up, although I think it was more a case of 'approaching a different opinion in an intolerant manner' rather than pretentiousness.



True enough. In a different sub-forum I would have been in the red in moments but I received no neg rep-that's the thing. No neg in this sub-forum says a lot about the place. Still, that thread was both kind of worrying and slightly gratifying. Goodkind's rant gave me a gd laugh as well.


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## Batman (Mar 27, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> One guy PM'd me once and insulted a piece I posted. Hell, he even asked if english was my first language.



Really?? Some people have way too much time on their hands if they devote themselves to crap like that.


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## neko-sennin (Mar 27, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> One guy PM'd me once and insulted a piece I posted. Hell, he even asked if english was my first language.



Wow, that _is_ pretty childish. Then again, if I ever say anything negative about someone else's work (and that's a very rare occurrence since I usually don't bother to finish a piece I dislike that much), I don't make it personal, and at least explain _why_ I think the way I do, so the other person can know that it's nothing personal. I believe that criticism should be of a constructive nature.

If any asshats like that ever go so far as to _neg-rep_ you over something that petty, just tell us, and we'll counter-rep it tenfold! Or at least I will  (though I probably shouldn't put words in other people's mouths)



Batman said:


> Really?? Some people have way too much time on their hands if they devote themselves to crap like that.



Yeah, kinda like the way most neg-reps we receive are usually over such childish and petty things; in all my time here, I have only dealt out _two_ negs, and I find it no surprise that both of these people got themselves banned not long after. That, and most of the flamers, especially a certain local troll on NF that I doubt I need to name, seem to be _proud of_ their red bars, and I am not one to give antagonistic people what they want.

That having been said, you guys seem to make a pretty cool gathering of writers around here anymore, and I hope everyone sticks around here for a good long time.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 28, 2008)

I don't think I ever tried to look at the Anne Rice threads, but I found a lot of her more devoted fans determined not to read anything else at all, which is a little scary, I know but still.

For brief time I really wished I could write like her, but I don't think I ever tried to actually do it. I'm not really good with long descriptions and the like, you know?


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## Lord Yu (Mar 28, 2008)

I've never read an Anne Rice books. Considering her ego, I don't think I want to.


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## Dream Brother (Mar 28, 2008)

Yeah, normally I try to separate my feelings for the author from their works, but in this case I just find her egotistical and self-indulgent tirades too distasteful to pick up her stuff.


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## neko-sennin (Mar 28, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I don't think I ever tried to look at the Anne Rice threads, but I found a lot of her more devoted fans determined not to read anything else at all, which is a little scary, I know but still.



That _does_ sound pretty scary, but the couple Rice fans I can think of that I know are both avid readers of all kinds of stuff.



Dream Brother said:


> Yeah, normally I try to separate my feelings for the author from their works, but in this case I just find her egotistical and self-indulgent tirades too distasteful to pick up her stuff.



Hmm, guess I'm not familiar with that side of her, then again, I did find her whole "religious" trip amusing.


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## Batman (Mar 28, 2008)

I know little about Anne Rice. What book/books is she famous for?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 28, 2008)

She's a good writer, especially Interview and Vampire Lestat, but she's not the best ever and she's no God of the trade. I would have to say that she will be remembered notably for her contributions to vampire lore. Her novels did for vampires what the book "I Am Legend" did for the Zombie and horror genre.


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## neko-sennin (Mar 28, 2008)

*"Tradewinds" Prologue:*

Well, I've been thinking this over for quite a bit, and I've decided that it's my turn to share. Not that I haven't shared anything at all, rather, that is to say something, if not more recent than Hondo or my short stories, at least something that I've never shown anyone outside my inner circle before. I started writing this series, which I've given the operative name "Tradewinds" (though just a working title I won't concern myself with a "final" title until it's more complete), when I was in high school, and have reworked it a couple times over the years, to the point that I've almost "caught up" with where I "left off" in the main story in the previous manuscript draft, and stand on the threshold of venturing into entirely new chapters, so I guess I'm looking for an outside perspective on it now.

So, without further blithering...


*Spoiler*: _PROLOGUE_ 



The island was a lost treasure.

A rare gem, indeed, and no part of any constellation, an emerald star gleaming all alone in its own corner of an endless sky men called the Ocean. Many miles out of anyone’s way, it was a pristine place, unseen by human eyes and untouched by human hands. So it seemed destined to remain for the Ages.

Or at least until today.

For as the sun slowly rose from its nightly swim, as the eternal waves emerged from untold depths, to the faint chorus of life echoing through the morning mist in the jungle beyond the beach, the light of dawn shone on a young man who lay sprawled out on the sand.

Barely more than a boy, really, but tall for his age. His light brown, almost blond, hair was damp and caked with the same ancient sand as his ragged clothes. If not for the breath of life he still had in him, he would be hard to discern from the rest of the half-buried junk strewn across that stretch of beach.

An equally ragged moan escaped him as he lifted his head and tried to prop himself up on one arm. But try was all he could do, for he was exhausted so soon after his ordeal at sea. He got only a brief, bleary glimpse of the beach before his head crashed back into the sand.

Which his hands, for all anyone knew, may have been the first to ever claw their fingers through, and whose eyes may well have been the first to ever behold. He would do no more of either again for some time.




All comments, critiques or questions are welcome.


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## Kage no Yume (Mar 28, 2008)

neko-sennin said:
			
		

> All comments, critiques or questions are welcome.



I know, I know, I'm a pretentious bastard .  I did try my best though, so if you don't like it just disregard the whole thing.  It's mostly opinion, so don't take it seriously.

Take note that I'm not saying this is how you should write it, this is just how I would have written it (although I did keep it as close to your work as possible).  I'll put your version in italics, my suggestions or reasons for change in blue, and then my version plain.


*Spoiler*: _PROLOGUE (With altered version by Kage no Yume)_ 



_The island was a lost treasure._

No problem here.  Good enough opening

The island was a lost treasure.


_
A rare gem, indeed, and no part of any constellation, an emerald star gleaming all alone in its own corner of an endless sky men called the Ocean. Many miles out of anyone’s way, it was a pristine place, unseen by human eyes and untouched by human hands. So it seemed destined to remain for the Ages._

This is where things get tricky.  First off, the "indeed" doesn't work well as a parenthetic phrase:  A rare gem (indeed) and no part...

Second, try to keep to the same tense throughout the paragraph.  The word "gleaming" calls for the present tense "call".  The rest of your paragraph is in past tense though, so I changed gleaming to gleamed.  You could also put "it was an emerald star gleaming..." to make it past tense.

Third, try to put related ideas closer to each other.  Don't mention constellations until we know that you're comparing it to a star.

Last, the final sentence isn't an independent clause.  In other words, it can't stand on its own, and it needs to be more connected to what the "so" is referring to.

A rare gem indeed.  An emerald star, which took part in no constellation, that gleamed in the corner of that endless sky men called the Ocean.  It was a pristine place; many miles out of anyone’s way.  Unseen by human eyes and untouched by human hands, it seemed destined to remain so for the Ages.


_Or at least until today._

Avoid starting a sentence with conjunctions (and, or, but, etc...).

At least until today.


_For as the sun slowly rose from its nightly swim, as the eternal waves emerged from untold depths, to the faint chorus of life echoing through the morning mist in the jungle beyond the beach, the light of dawn shone on a young man who lay sprawled out on the sand._

Again, avoid starting sentences with conjunctions.

The only other correction I made in this paragraph was changing a faulty parallel.  That is to say, you should keep your sentences in the same form when listing events like this.  Don't go from -ed to -ing, and it would be best to keep with the "as the" formula since this is a single sentence.

As the sun slowly rose from its nightly swim, as the eternal waves emerged from the untold depths, as the faint chorus of life echoed through the morning mist in the jungle beyond the beach, the light of dawn shone on a young man who lay sprawled out on the sand.


_Barely more than a boy, really, but tall for his age. His light brown, almost blond, hair was damp and caked with the same ancient sand as his ragged clothes. If not for the breath of life he still had in him, he would be hard to discern from the rest of the half-buried junk strewn across that stretch of beach._

This was a difficult paragraph to read.  The first sentence is a fragment, with another parenthetic phrase that doesn't really work:  Barely more than a boy (really) but tall for his age.

The major change with the second sentence is mostly just in my opinion.  The "almost blond" phrase seemed abrupt, so I just changed the sentence around to suit my own taste.  You can ignore the change if you want to.

Moving the sentence with "ragged" to the end is really necessary if you want to use "An equally ragged" in the next paragraph.  Keep related ideas together or the reader will get lost.

If not for his breathing, he would have been hard to discern from the rest of the half-buried junk strewn across that stretch of beach.  He was barely more than a boy really, but tall for his age.  His damp hair was light brown, almost blond, and caked with the same ancient sand as his ragged clothes. 


_An equally ragged moan escaped him as he lifted his head and tried to prop himself up on one arm. But try was all he could do, for he was exhausted so soon after his ordeal at sea. He got only a brief, bleary glimpse of the beach before his head crashed back into the sand._

Conjunction at beginning in second sentence, blah blah blah...You don't really need to adhere to this rule in a novel.  But try not to do it too often.  Or the reader could become lost.  And as you can see it can be distracting .

I'm not sure why "so soon" seems out of place.  It might be because it seems to reference an earlier situation that the reader doesn't know about yet, but just received info about in an offhand remark.

An equally ragged moan escaped him as he lifted his head and tried to prop himself up on one arm.  Try was all he could do, however, for he was exhausted after an ordeal at sea. He got only a brief bleary glimpse of the beach before his head crashed back into the sand.


_Which his hands, for all anyone knew, may have been the first to ever claw their fingers through, and whose eyes may well have been the first to ever behold. He would do no more of either again for some time._

Never start a sentence with "which" in that sense.  Especially when the item the which is referencing is in another paragraph.

I'll admit that this paragraph was a very hard one though.  I knew what you were getting at, but it was difficult to construct.  It's also a fragment, but it sounds okay so I left it as one.  

Sand that, for all anyone knew, his fingers may have been the first to ever claw through, and a beach that his eyes may well have been the first to ever behold. He would do no more of either again for some time.





Again, I apologize if my critique seemed harsh or uncalled for.  I really hope that it might be of some help to you though .  If you'd rather I delete this post, just PM me.


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## Einstein (Mar 28, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I don't think I ever tried to look at the Anne Rice threads, but I found a lot of her more devoted fans determined not to read anything else at all, which is a little scary, I know but still.
> 
> For brief time I really wished I could write like her, but I don't think I ever tried to actually do it. I'm not really good with long descriptions and the like, you know?


When I heard that Anne Rice stuff in this thread, I was pretty convinced that she wasn't worth the reading, therefore I didn't really have half a mind to read anything she wrote. But my mother is a big fan and I had nothing else to read, so I read The Vampire Lestat. Pretty good stuff actually. Doesn't mean she isn't an ass, but she writes well.

I was actually going for a Anne Rice-ish tone when I wrote that short story I just posted here, but to keep it my own at the same time. he has a very fluid style, from what I read. I think I was good at absorbing that.

I still want to keep some individuality, I'd hate for people to reveiw my ooks and say "..It reads just like an Anne Rice novel.."


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## Lord Yu (Mar 28, 2008)

FINALLY! Another title for my book! I fail at titles. But this one seems to suit it a little bit more than the previous titles.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 28, 2008)

I entitled mine "Forget December" I named it after a song, I often do that.


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## Tyrael (Mar 28, 2008)

If titles don't come naturally to me I don't spend too much time worrying about it. Never lose track of the fact your book is more than the label you slap on the front I say.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 28, 2008)

I don't spend much time thinking of titles. Mine just come to me at random.

I chose Nihilist's Fairytale. Probably, not the best title ever, but it fits the overall mood I think.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 28, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> If titles don't come naturally to me I don't spend too much time worrying about it. Never lose track of the fact your book is more than the label you slap on the front I say.



Yeah but you can't forget that the cover and title are probably the first judgement people make about your novel.


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## Dream Brother (Mar 28, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah but you can't forget that the cover and title are probably the first judgement people make about your novel.



Very true.

Even an excellent novel can wallow in obscurity if the title is dull or the cover art is horrid. Unfortunately, the majority of people don’t bother to try reading the first few pages of a novel if one of these two elements (or even worse, both combined) put them off -- and I’m not trying to take any kind of moral high ground, because I myself have been known to fall into that exact same trap many times before. It’s all well and good to say ‘don’t judge a book by its cover’, but harder to actually recall and put into practice when browsing in a store.


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## neko-sennin (Mar 28, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah but you can't forget that the cover and title are probably the first judgement people make about your novel.



Admittedly, but I tend to worry more about marketing _after_ I have something to "market" in the first place. Sometimes my "operative name" (such as my short stories "Paradigm Shift" and "Lost & Found") ends up sticking, and sometimes I come up with a better title when looking back at it in the rearview mirror, being able to see its complete form. For example, I might stick with "Tradewinds" if I can't think of anything better, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over the matter until after I've finished writing and polishing the thing in its entirety.


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## Tyrael (Mar 28, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah but you can't forget that the cover and title are probably the first judgement people make about your novel.



It does make an impact, that is true, but 90% of novels I read are based on word of mouth. People who read tend to be less impulsive I find.

Oh and Neko, I liked the little passage and Kage no Yume has highlighted many points to look at. What I would like to point out is that the tone is slightly inconsistent it is fairly elaborate yet also conversational. The slight presence of a somewhat sardonic narrator means that it's not entirely consistent. Still great to hear you have persevered with it so long.


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## Einstein (Mar 28, 2008)

Am I the only person who doesn't have a titling problem? 

Then again, the main reason I'm probably so good at titling is because of my obsessive overplanning, which also, 90% of the time, is the downfall of the story. I spend so much time and effort planning, I'm too exhausted with it to want to write the actual thing.

Does anyone else have this problem, or am I the only compulsive planner?


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## Lord Yu (Mar 28, 2008)

I do, way more planning than writing. If I didn't try to plan so much I'd probably be done by now.


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## Dream Brother (Mar 28, 2008)

Einstein said:


> Does anyone else have this problem, or am I the only compulsive planner?



I actually don't plan _enough_ -- I wish I was a little more like you, as I'm far too 'wishy washy'.


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## Tyrael (Mar 28, 2008)

Einstein said:


> Am I the only person who doesn't have a titling problem?
> 
> Then again, the main reason I'm probably so good at titling is because of my obsessive overplanning, which also, 90% of the time, is the downfall of the story. I spend so much time and effort planning, I'm too exhausted with it to want to write the actual thing.
> 
> Does anyone else have this problem, or am I the only compulsive planner?



I have no problems with titles either-the text tends to dictate a natural title.

I think planning is good only in an over-arching sense. If it gets too specific then you find that the scenes are almost stagnant by the time you write, therefore meaning you will write them as more stagnant. Because of the creativity and inspiration that centre around writing are both very much spontaneous things I reckon you should be prepared to deviate from a set path if the mood takes you.

This is weird, I can't remember this thread ever being so active.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 28, 2008)

I continually act out scenes that I know will never happen. It's good character exercise though.


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## Einstein (Mar 28, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I have no problems with titles either-the text tends to dictate a natural title.
> 
> I think planning is good only in an over-arching sense. If it gets too specific then you find that the scenes are almost stagnant by the time you write, therefore meaning you will write them as more stagnant. Because of the creativity and inspiration that centre around writing are both very much spontaneous things I reckon you should be prepared to deviate from a set path if the mood takes you.


That's my problem- I plan so much it gets boring to write the actual story. It's like I'm just writing what was planned, more descriptively. I've noticed that I actually write better when I don't plan so much, probably because I feel fresh and new to the idea instead of like I'm just doing the same thing over again.

I'll try planning as little as possible. That Weatherman thing was better than some of the things I planned, and it was completely off the top of my head.



> This is weird, I can't remember this thread ever being so active.


Same here!


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## Tyrael (Mar 28, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I continually act out scenes that I know will never happen. It's good character exercise though.



Only occasionally-do it too often and it is just procrastination.



Einstein said:


> That's my problem- *I plan so much it gets boring to write the actual story.* It's like I'm just writing what was planned, more descriptively. I've noticed that I actually write better when I don't plan so much, probably because I feel fresh and new to the idea instead of like I'm just doing the same thing over again.
> 
> I'll try planning as little as possible. That Weatherman thing was better than some of the things I planned, and it was completely off the top of my head.
> 
> ...



Exactly the danger.

King says he treats stories as if they are an entity themselves and merely digs lets them flow, conferring all control onto the narrative. I prefer Pratchett's way of saying it (although he was talking about characterisation it works for the whole of a novel) "It's like those wind-up toys. You can point them in a certain direction and let them go but you only know vaguely where they are gonna go." That was a paraphrase but you get the message.

If the weatherman was a product of spontaneity then def. go for it in the future. Just be wary that there are structural challenge towards larger works that do require planning.


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## Einstein (Mar 28, 2008)

Tyrael said:
			
		

> King says he treats stories as if they are an entity themselves and merely digs lets them flow, conferring all control onto the narrative. I prefer Pratchett's way of saying it (although he was talking about characterisation it works for the whole of a novel) "It's like those wind-up toys. You can point them in a certain direction and let them go but you only know vaguely where they are gonna go." That was a paraphrase but you get the message.


Yeah, I get it. I'll try to paln less, it's just something about not planning that worries me.. like the lack of control, though that's weird for me to think since I'm still the one writing.

I'll think on the plus side - if I were to die, my sister or something could just look at all the planning I did and be able to write an entire novel.


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## Batman (Mar 28, 2008)

^ I don't tend to have titling problems either.  The things I'm writing right now (well two out of the three) are pretty well planned, so the Titles had to be certain things, or they just made sense based upon where the story is headed.

Yet even with the story i'm writing that has no planning what so ever, the title came almost at once. I doubt that i'll change it either.


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## Einstein (Mar 28, 2008)

I figured that I was so good at titles because I already knew all of what it contained b/c of the planning, but you've got a title for something you haven't planned? How'd you figure that out?


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## Batman (Mar 28, 2008)

Luck. That's the only think I could contribute it to. Plus it was one of those times where the central idea about he story is so basic, so singular that regarless where I take it, the title will work 99% of the time. 

During that other one percent I can just say I'm being artistic.


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## neko-sennin (Mar 28, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> It does make an impact, that is true, but 90% of novels I read are based on word of mouth. People who read tend to be less impulsive I find.



Good point. Then again, as giving something a title is the act of naming, and whatever you call it will be the name ultimately passed around by readers.



Tyrael said:


> Oh and Neko, I liked the little passage and Kage no Yume has highlighted many points to look at. What I would like to point out is that the tone is slightly inconsistent it is fairly elaborate yet also conversational. The slight presence of a somewhat sardonic narrator means that it's not entirely consistent. Still great to hear you have persevered with it so long.



Yeah, they've been jackhammering the street outside since 7 am, so I waited until I was more awake to look through Kage's notes. Some of his suggestions have helped me fix minor hitches I hadn't even noticed, one of the chief advantages of having someone unfamiliar with a piece look at it. I'll save my response until more people have had a chance to read the original post.



Einstein said:


> Am I the only person who doesn't have a titling problem?



Not really, I made a point of explaining my philosophy because I used to have a similar problem, though I became increasingly less worried about that over the years, and can't recall the last time I ever gave any thought to cover art. I used to think about it too much when I first started, but I've found that a good title always comes to mind either a) early on, often popping into my head along with the initial story idea, or b) after I'm done, and it seems as self-evident as the answer to a good riddle when I look back at it.



Einstein said:


> Then again, the main reason I'm probably so good at titling is because of my obsessive overplanning, which also, 90% of the time, is the downfall of the story. I spend so much time and effort planning, I'm too exhausted with it to want to write the actual thing.
> 
> Does anyone else have this problem, or am I the only compulsive planner?



You do need to be mindful of where you invest your energy. I used to do all kinds of stuff, drawing up outlines, doodling maps, templating character profiles, tables of contents, even a _glossary_ for one project... _and never finished a single one of them_. Perhaps the single most useful advice anyone has ever given me was my aunt telling me that the more energy I expend on things that _aren't_ writing the story, the less energy I will have left to work on the writing itself. I also used to write things completely out of sequence: the original version of that "Prologue" scene from above was actually written first, while the rest of the time I skipped around to whatever part of the storyline seemed more "interesting" to me at the time, even wrote a book in high school that was the "fourth book" in a series of stories in which I _never wrote the first three_.

While I still occasionally dabble in some of the above practices, I resort to them only if they're relevant and _contribute something useful_ to the current stage of the work, and I _never_ give in to temptation to "skip ahead" anymore, otherwise I keep focusing on the chapter at hand: after all, a sentence is written one word at a time, a paragraph is written one sentence at a time, and a chapter is written one paragraph at a time.

Then again, looking back I can see that all the "busy-work" of planning was a relatively easy way to convince myself I was _doing_ something. Since my oldest stories were based on informal roleplaying I did with my friends on the bus and stuff when I was in middle school, with myself as the "GM/DM" in most cases, and even a lot of my later work is rooted in adapted versions of the worlds we created, I think I was intimidated by the actual work of trying to do it justice, rather than trying to sharpen my skills in order to do just that.

Of course, storytelling methods tend to vary, which is one of the biggest reasons why the methods that work best from one writer to the next will also vary somewhat. With my friends, I often used to have them invent their own characters and try to adapt the story to them, creating a scenario from one story to the next, and letting them act of their own volition within it. While I was often a member of their party, I usually also RP'ed the villains and other major characters they encountered, as well. Anymore, after I tried scripting things so tightly that characters behaved as woodenly as characters in a poorly designed video game, I came back to that approach, simply setting the stage, and letting my characters deal with it in their own way.

One thing I've learned from this is that if you allow your characters enough freedom to take on a life of their own, the story has a way of telling itself _through_ them. In fact, around the time I was starting to figure this out, I happened to read that this is the basic gist of how Stephen King writes most his books, just dumping his characters into some outlandish scenario, and seeing what they do about it.


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## Batman (Mar 28, 2008)

I've been meaning to plan something out for the past week, but I keep putting it off. >_< I know it helps to add that necessary subtext within my writing, but editing has taken over my life at the moment.


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## neko-sennin (Mar 28, 2008)

Guess I've given it enough time...



Kage no Yume said:


> I know, I know, I'm a pretentious bastard .  I did try my best though, so if you don't like it just disregard the whole thing.  It's mostly opinion, so don't take it seriously.
> 
> Take note that I'm not saying this is how you should write it, this is just how I would have written it (although I did keep it as close to your work as possible).



Relax, Kage, you're hardly being pretentious. I _did_ ask for critiques, and it's my philosophy to think very carefully about what I ask for, lest I receive it.  Your approach is more technical than I'm used to, but in terms of ruthlessness, I regret to inform you that you've got nothin' on Matt-sama; he may be one of my oldest and best friends, but he holds nothing back when it comes to my writing, as I suppose he sees it as a waste of both of our time if he isn't allowed to deconstruct it to his satisfaction. That, and he knows I won't learn anything from hollow praise anyway, so don't worry, dealing with him, I've developed skin as thick as tank armor when it comes to critique.

I've put most of your points, and my responses, in spoiler tags so it won't take up as much space, or ruin anything for anyone who hasn't had a chance to read the whole piece yet.


*Spoiler*: __ 





Kage no Yume said:


> Third, try to put related ideas closer to each other.  Don't mention constellations until we know that you're comparing it to a star.
> 
> Kage's version:
> A rare gem indeed.  An emerald star, which took part in no constellation, that gleamed in the corner of that endless sky men called the Ocean.  It was a pristine place; many miles out of anyone?s way.  Unseen by human eyes and untouched by human hands, it seemed destined to remain so for the Ages.



I'll admit, I hadn't even thought of that, and although I phrased it slightly differently than your version in the edit, to fit in better with the established flow, I kept the basic gist of mentioning "star" before "constellation" as it does read more clearly that way.



Kage no Yume said:


> I'm not sure why "so soon" seems out of place.  It might be because it seems to reference an earlier situation that the reader doesn't know about yet, but just received info about in an offhand remark.



Though I never say it out-loud, since I like to give my readers _some_ credit, it might be that the second half of this scene is hinting at a shipwreck. At the very least, it does give the impression that our young friend by no means arrived this way deliberately. Though I've tweaked the original to drop some hint that there had been a storm the night before.



Kage no Yume said:


> Sand that, for all anyone knew, his fingers may have been the first to ever claw through, and a beach that his eyes may well have been the first to ever behold. He would do no more of either again for some time.



Again, I thank you for this one. Though I personally have no qualms about referring to something in the last paragraph, at least if it was mentioned at the end, this wording _does_ make it flow more smoothly.

I did a few other minor changes based on your analysis, but tried to keep the existing narrative flow intact in the process. One thing I might point out, in the case of this scene, is that even though I tend to use the past tense as my primary storytelling voice, my choice of "present"-sounding tense for some parts here were more as "descriptive" and "background" verbs. For instance, although "gleaming" is part of the "star/constellation" imagery, whatever this island is doing, insofar as it's _doing_ anything in the literal sense, it's not about to _stop_ doing it any time soon. It _is_ an island, after all. Not that there's anything wrong with your version, but for this scene I was trying to maintain a lucid, half-dreamt atmosphere, as it sets the stage for a lot of foreshadowing in Part 1, which tells the tale of how our young protagonist comes to end up on that island in the first place.






Kage no Yume said:


> Again, I apologize if my critique seemed harsh or uncalled for.  I really hope that it might be of some help to you though .  If you'd rather I delete this post, just PM me.



No need for that. I'm just glad there are others out there who still find value in competent editing and critical analysis. I've been thinking about posting the rest of Part 1 in its own thread, just to take it for a test spin, but given how much longer most chapters are than in that introductory scene, I would be out of my mind to expect anyone to devote that much time to such a technical breakdown. But if I do post, feel free to post any degree of response you wish.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 29, 2008)

I am in the planning stages of my first chapter for the new story. But I usually plan it chapter by chapter, not the whole thing at a time, that way I can make sure things are flowing as I go.


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## Tyrael (Mar 29, 2008)

Batman said:


> I've been meaning to plan something out for the past week, but I keep putting it off. >_< I know it helps to add that necessary subtext within my writing, but editing has taken over my life at the moment.





Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I am in the planning stages of my first chapter for the new story. But I usually plan it chapter by chapter, not the whole thing at a time, that way I can make sure things are flowing as I go.



Do either of you two (or anyone else) write plans or prefer to have a more mental map of what you are going to do?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 29, 2008)

I write all my plans in my writing notebook, I also keep a binder with character profiles, pictures, and general research (about weapons, orgainizations or technology).


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## Batman (Mar 30, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I write all my plans in my writing notebook, I also keep a binder with character profiles, pictures, and general research (about weapons, orgainizations or technology).



I'm about the same. But it also depends upon the type of story i'm trying to write. I'm in the process of writing something on a grand scale, so I had to plan it out in fine detail.

But I'm also writing another piece that is going to be a stand alone project that creates a sense of detachment, so planning it out would be absurd. But I suppose the irony is that I planned to not plan. So maybe I do plan everything.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 30, 2008)

I write practically nothing down physically as my hand writing is so horrible I'd never look at it. I tend to memorize more than I actually note. I don't have any complete outlines. The only outline is in my head.


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## Tyrael (Mar 30, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I write practically nothing down physically as my hand writing is so horrible I'd never look at it. I tend to memorize more than I actually note. I don't have any complete outlines. The only outline is in my head.



I'm pretty much the same. Although a lot of the time I don't even like to make rigid mental maps. This is a mixed bag though as more often than no I will end up running into a wall because I have given narrative too much control.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 1, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I write practically nothing down physically as my hand writing is so horrible I'd never look at it. I tend to memorize more than I actually note. I don't have any complete outlines. The only outline is in my head.



Sadly, I'm no good at memorizing things... unless they rhyme, in which case I'm stuck with it lurking around back there forever.  As such, if I don't write down as much as I can when I first get an idea, even if it's just the bare bones of it, I will find myself missing important pieces later on. As a result, it could be said that I was _forced_ to develop a form of handwriting that was both fast, but could also still be read weeks or months later, and still be able to read what the hell I wrote about.  I honestly _wish_ I could memorize other stuff that well.

On a completely different note, I've started posting Part 1 of that "Tradewinds" story I posted the prologue to earlier. And yes, Kage no Yume, that version of the prologue does include the revisions I mentioned in my last post about it. Feel free to check it out, the prologue and the first chapter are already up.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 1, 2008)

I think I found what my dialogue scenes were missing. Emotions, I've been focusing to much on physical action and not inner struggle. Trying to advance the story instead of delving into the scene. Now to fix it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 1, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Sadly, I'm no good at memorizing things... unless they rhyme, in which case I'm stuck with it lurking around back there forever.  As such, if I don't write down as much as I can when I first get an idea, even if it's just the bare bones of it, I will find myself missing important pieces later on. As a result, it could be said that I was _forced_ to develop a form of handwriting that was both fast, but could also still be read weeks or months later, and still be able to read what the hell I wrote about.  I honestly _wish_ I could memorize other stuff that well.
> 
> On a completely different note, I've started posting Part 1 of that "Tradewinds" story I posted the prologue to earlier. And yes, Kage no Yume, that version of the prologue does include the revisions I mentioned in my last post about it. Feel free to check it out, the prologue and the first chapter are already up.



I only remember the things that are written down, hence why I write them down.



Lord Yu said:


> I think I found what my dialogue scenes were missing. Emotions, I've been focusing to much on physical action and not inner struggle. Trying to advance the story instead of delving into the scene. Now to fix it.




Good luck with that, its going to be hard. I find it easier to just rewrite the most troubled scenes and bisect the others line by line and try to see what you can add.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 1, 2008)

It's not really the lines themselves more the following action. It's too much of he said she said and not what they're feeling.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 1, 2008)

Sometimes its our instinct to actually think that people won't get what we've said with our story. Like that they won't understand some of the action or emotion. But sometimes all you need is "said". A lot of times people get tricked into sticking too much around quotations and it can get over bearing on the reader. Just the structure of the dialogue, whether it shoots back and fourth fast or slow and the like can be enough. Even the length of the sentences can portray emotions.


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## Tyrael (Apr 1, 2008)

It is generally agreed that you only use non-said verbs when you want to emphasise something-a lot of writers don't use them even then. Using more than just said is good but the idea that just plain dialogue contains no emotion is untrue, thus said is quite emotional enough (it's that old show, don't tell nonsense). Most of the time I rarely even use speaking verbs.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 1, 2008)

I use said only periodically, if there are just two characters; I make sure that their personalities come through enough in their words that you can tell which is talking. There are other visual cues to tell you who is speaking. Each speaker should get their own paragraph, so this helps. 

And I try like hell to avoid adverbs like "said happily" or the like unless I have to. Using other words in place of said gets overbearing and many times people think it shows an amateur feel to a story: hissed, yelled, snapped, quipped, and even more extravagant ones.


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## Tyrael (Apr 1, 2008)

Adverbs aren't as poisonous as some writers make them out to be, but they can destroy writing if overused.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 1, 2008)

Maybe not, but often times I have seen people think they are brilliant for 'inventing' a new adverb by adding 'ly' to an existing word. Doing this too much is what I think most writers are talking about.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 1, 2008)

I use to use Suddenly alot. Now I might use it once or twice a chapter. Mostly for comical effect.


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## Tyrael (Apr 1, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Maybe not, but often times I have seen people think they are brilliant for 'inventing' a new adverb by adding 'ly' to an existing word. Doing this too much is what I think most writers are talking about.



This means you get people spouting them out parrotly I guess.

Oh and I hate using the word suddenly, but use it far more often than I would like to. Not exactly the easiest thing to show without going all weird with grammar though.


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## Batman (Apr 1, 2008)

I'm agonizing over details at the moment. I'm looking to put any and everything possible to make the settings, people, whatever, more believable. Its actually a lot of fun, now that the copy I'm working on is pretty clean.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 1, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> This means you get people spouting them out parrotly I guess.
> 
> Oh and I hate using the word suddenly, but use it far more often than I would like to. Not exactly the easiest thing to show without going all weird with grammar though.



It became quite easy to avoid when I noticed how often I used it. Sometimes it's as simple as not having there or using the previous sentence in a way that it has the same impact.


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## Tyrael (Apr 1, 2008)

Batman said:


> I'm agonizing over details at the moment. I'm looking to put any and everything possible to make the settings, people, whatever, more believable. Its actually a lot of fun, now that the copy I'm working on is pretty clean.



The idea of having your texts "clean" for experimenting is an alien concept to me, although it does sound satisfying.



Lord Yu said:


> It became quite easy to avoid when I noticed how often I used it. Sometimes it's as simple as not having there or using the previous sentence in a way that it has the same impact.



It's kinda awkward to get the effect it is trying to communicate though. Easy to avoid alternatives tend not to be forthcoming with me.


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## Batman (Apr 1, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> The idea of having your texts "clean" for experimenting is an alien concept to me, although it does sound satisfying.


Well its taken me a few years to get to this point so its new to me as well. lol



			
				CTK said:
			
		

> Maybe not, but often times I have seen people think they are brilliant for 'inventing' a new adverb by adding 'ly' to an existing word.


This drives me crazy, not because its done, but because its overused. People don't know when they've gone overboard.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 1, 2008)

It seems to be more of a trait of kids novels and young teen stuff. When I hear it, I think Hardy Boys or something like that. I try to be careful with the words I use over and over because there are some that I am tempted to use too often.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 2, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Adverbs aren't as poisonous as some writers make them out to be, but they can destroy writing if overused.



That's the balance, and it's not easily achieved. I think Stephen King (and yes, I cite him a lot because "On Writing" helped me figure so many things out about what was going both right and wrong with my writing) put it best when he described it as "lazy" writing. The most troublesome thing about those two letters, _-ly_, is that they are a seductive shortcut to more engaging writing. Sometimes, I read a passage aloud, and if the use of adverbs sounds to monotonous, I break it up.

...And often end up with something with greater depth of expression for my trouble.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Maybe not, but often times I have seen people think they are brilliant for 'inventing' a new adverb by adding 'ly' to an existing word. Doing this too much is what I think most writers are talking about.



Yeah, the more I look back on my older writings, the more I realize that it's a very poor substitute for subtext in dialogue. It seems to be a part of that whole "showing" vs "telling" dynamic that I keep training myself to be mindful of when writing.



Lord Yu said:


> I use to use Suddenly alot. Now I might use it once or twice a chapter. Mostly for comical effect.



Ah, the adverb I've sought to stamp out of my narrative vocabulary entirely. About the only time I use the word is in dialogue, as real people use the word when talking about stuff. And one of the main principles of dialogue writing is to maintain the flow of natural human speech.



Tyrael said:


> It's kinda awkward to get the effect it is trying to communicate though. Easy to avoid alternatives tend not to be forthcoming with me.



My advice would be to make an exercise, perhaps in the next FF, out of trying to describe something "suddenly" happening without using the word itself. It is possible, but it may disrupt your narrative flow until you find your own methods and get the hang of them.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 2, 2008)

In my opinion, Suddenly is a great word for comedy.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 2, 2008)

How come its always like 1:00 AM when I get in the 'wright' mood.


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## Tyrael (Apr 2, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> How come its always like 1:00 AM when I get in the 'wright' mood.



Your evidently a vampire CTK.

But I have the same problem, I am used to writing before I go to bed but I'm staying up later before I even start writing which means that I've fallen into rather wacky habits.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 2, 2008)

Yeah and I still get this feeling that my third person is severely lacking. But I have to use it sooner or later. I mean that I have to use it sooner or later, the first few stories can use the first person view point, but the later ones are going to have to sometimes deal in third because they are centered around groups of characters spread all across the world and there is no other way to do this without me doing it with third person.


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## Tyrael (Apr 2, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah and I still get this feeling that my third person is severely lacking. But I have to use it sooner or later. I mean that I have to use it sooner or later, the first few stories can use the first person view point, but the later ones are going to have to sometimes deal in third because they are centered around groups of characters spread all across the world and there is no other way to do this without me doing it with third person.



If it is third person limited then the change needs not be that large, although the subtle changes you will make are admittedly part of the narrative voice. To be honest, I reckon should you struggle that much you just should stick to 1st person-it is feasible if less practical. And from what I've seen of your third is not as bad as you make it out to be.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 2, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> If it is third person limited then the change needs not be that large, although the subtle changes you will make are admittedly part of the narrative voice. To be honest, I reckon should you struggle that much you just should stick to 1st person-it is feasible if less practical. And from what I've seen of your third is not as bad as you make it out to be.



I guess third person limited is not what I am used to, it just feels to simple. 

Here is the thing about doing it in first person still, if I were to do that I would probably have to write about six more stories in the series just because of the sheer number of characters this next story is supposed to deal with. At the start, one group is in Siberia, there really isn't a way that I can do that group and the group back in the United States, plus I kind of want to do something a little different, the first three are in first person.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 3, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I guess third person limited is not what I am used to, it just feels to simple.
> 
> Here is the thing about doing it in first person still, if I were to do that I would probably have to write about six more stories in the series just because of the sheer number of characters this next story is supposed to deal with. At the start, one group is in Siberia, there really isn't a way that I can do that group and the group back in the United States, plus I kind of want to do something a little different, the first three are in first person.



I've read a couple books that switched between first and third person, and all it did was complicate the narrative. Then again, since the main one I can remember was a novel about political snafu's in Africa, I think that may have been the point. 

I've only written one story in first person, and that was partly as an experiment in epistolatory accounts ("The Road Trip"), and because it revolved around two characters who mostly stuck together throughout their ordeal. While I would strongly recommend third person for such a large cast and varied settings, that recommendation would be based on my own style, but in the end, if you're more comfortable with first person, it might be worth the trouble of experimenting with it before deciding.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 3, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> I've read a couple books that switched between first and third person, and all it did was complicate the narrative. Then again, since the main one I can remember was a novel about political snafu's in Africa, I think that may have been the point.
> 
> I've only written one story in first person, and that was partly as an experiment in epistolatory accounts ("The Road Trip"), and because it revolved around two characters who mostly stuck together throughout their ordeal. While I would strongly recommend third person for such a large cast and varied settings, that recommendation would be based on my own style, but in the end, if you're more comfortable with first person, it might be worth the trouble of experimenting with it before deciding.



I have actually written in third alot before like a year and half ago. It was nice, but I think first is more intimate and thats what I need for these first few stories. 

I am going to have to do third eventually, because the fights with the antagonist are going to warrant it.


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## Tyrael (Apr 3, 2008)

Actually, I reckon third person limited is the hardest to write. It's in an awkward position between omniscient and first. Keeping it consistent is a lot harder as well as sustaining the writing. That's possibly why it is the only one I use. That said, I'm going to try and mix it up a bit.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 3, 2008)

People seem to hold a passionate hatred for adverbs. =/


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## Batman (Apr 3, 2008)

Personally I can't stand the ones I hear too often, like the writer doesn't want to stretch themselves.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 3, 2008)

I concur. Some make their writing far too lean; I generally see narratives hardly filled out, rather than too much so.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 3, 2008)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> People seem to hold a passionate hatred for adverbs. =/



Because they are all too often used when someone can't think of another better way to express themselves or when they're working too hard to express themselves and don't actually need to be. 



Tyrael said:


> Actually, I reckon third person limited is the hardest to write. It's in an awkward position between omniscient and first. Keeping it consistent is a lot harder as well as sustaining the writing. That's possibly why it is the only one I use. That said, I'm going to try and mix it up a bit.



I would say that first has the most disadvantages it, its limiting, all of the action has to occur involving or around the point of view character, the only emotions you can openly state as true are that of the point of view person...everything else has to be cleverly speculated on by the speaker, but in a way that the reader knows exactly what the deal is. 

Third limited is the easiest, it requires the least general literature knowledge, that's why many times its the popular choice in this day and age. When someone just has a story that is good to tell but can't write well, for example the Da Vinci Code, they use this perspective. 

That's not to say that people don't write great works in third-limited, but its a littler easier. Not only that, it kind of  has the best parts of both omni and first, its a hybrid that pulls off the other two and uses their advantages for both the writer and the reader, that's what makes it the best choice for most writers. 

I just happen to love the closeness that first person gives you to the character.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 3, 2008)

before I drift into RL. explain omni. I HATE TYPING  ON PS3. PC broke.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 4, 2008)

Omni is an omnipotent narrator...a narrator that knows all, third limited is third, but from a characters viewpoint.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 4, 2008)

So I have been using omni after all.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 4, 2008)

Probably so, for a long time is was the most common, this limited third person is a relativity new trend. If you want to do a lot of flowery writing omni is usually better for it, otherwise the characters can look pretentious.


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## Tyrael (Apr 4, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I would say that first has the most disadvantages it, its limiting, all of the action has to occur involving or around the point of view character, the only emotions you can openly state as true are that of the point of view person...everything else has to be cleverly speculated on by the speaker, but in a way that the reader knows exactly what the deal is.
> 
> Third limited is the easiest, it requires the least general literature knowledge, that's why many times its the popular choice in this day and age. When someone just has a story that is good to tell but can't write well, for example the Da Vinci Code, they use this perspective.
> 
> ...



I'm going to have to disagree with you there. The way I see it is that the stream of conscious-esque approach are the most natural narration, almost being able to just sit down and become your protagonist. This is really hard to do with limited as things could easily turn messy and unordered.

That said, I've never undertaken any large projects in first or third-omniscient. And there is the question of style and how that interacts with the perspective.


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## Batman (Apr 4, 2008)

_On the other hand, what are some of your favorite uses of adverbs?_

While we all know that when over used, they created a virtual mess, but when used at the right moment, they can add something. So what are some of the adverbs to which you've given an approving nod.

I've always been partial to '*Surreptitiously*', when used well.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 4, 2008)

Batman said:


> _On the other hand, what are some of your favorite uses of adverbs?_
> 
> While we all know that when over used, they created a virtual mess, but when used at the right moment, they can add something. So what are some of the adverbs to which you've given an approving nod.
> 
> I've always been partial to '*Surreptitiously*', when used well.



I don' think I really have a "favorite" adverb. As a reader, I like people to surprise me, and as a writer, I try not to repeat myself too much.


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## Batman (Apr 4, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> I don' think I really have a "favorite" adverb. As a reader, I like people to surprise me, and as a writer, I try not to repeat myself too much.



Ya I'm a bit like that, but that seems to be the word I tend not to mind as much, and when used well sounds good.


Gawd i'm Tired. It's taking me around 3 hours to edit each chapter. But I gotta reduce, reduce, reduce. Like its a good sauce.


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## Tyrael (Apr 4, 2008)

Batman said:


> Ya I'm a bit like that, but that seems to be the word I tend not to mind as much, and when used well sounds good.
> 
> 
> Gawd i'm Tired. It's taking me around 3 hours to edit each chapter. But I gotta reduce, reduce, reduce. Like its a good sauce.



You're officially the hardest working writer on these forums me thinks. Oh, and I love the way malevolently can change a sentence:

A grin spread across his face.

A grin spread malevolently across his face.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 4, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I'm going to have to disagree with you there. The way I see it is that the stream of conscious-esque approach are the most natural narration, almost being able to just sit down and become your protagonist. This is really hard to do with limited as things could easily turn messy and unordered.
> 
> That said, I've never undertaken any large projects in first or third-omniscient. And there is the question of style and how that interacts with the perspective.



Omni-third takes up a lot more space generally when writing too. But the thing about stream of conscious is its very rare and very hard to read. Something I really don't have an interest in trying or reading really. 



Batman said:


> _On the other hand, what are some of your favorite uses of adverbs?_
> 
> While we all know that when over used, they created a virtual mess, but when used at the right moment, they can add something. So what are some of the adverbs to which you've given an approving nod.
> 
> I've always been partial to '*Surreptitiously*', when used well.



I don't like the use of adverbs really.



Tyrael said:


> You're officially the hardest working writer on these forums me thinks. Oh, and I love the way malevolently can change a sentence:
> 
> A grin spread across his face.
> 
> A grin spread malevolently across his face.



Why add the 'ly' it sounds much better to say: 

"A malevolent grin spread across his face" 

or 

"A grin spread across his face in a way that was malevolent" 

or 

"A grin, beaming with malevolence, spread across his face." 

There's so many better ways to put it than to use the adverb.


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## Tyrael (Apr 4, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Why add the 'ly' it sounds much better to say:
> 
> "A malevolent grin spread across his face"
> 
> ...



Where a word is in a sentence affects the impact it will have-that said I really liked the third example. Putting a word at the end or start means that the effect is less subtle and malevolently is a convenient way of slipping it into the sentence without changing the original sentences structure.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 4, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Where a word is in a sentence affects the impact it will have-that said I really liked the third example. Putting a word at the end or start means that the effect is less subtle and malevolently is a convenient way of slipping it into the sentence without changing the original sentences structure.



I actually am thinking of going through and systematically eliminating most of the adverbs from my stories, although it would be a feat indeed.


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## Tyrael (Apr 4, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I actually am thinking of going through and systematically eliminating most of the adverbs from my stories, although it would be a feat indeed.



I'm def. gonna have a fair few to cut out of Citizen Alpha when I go back and edit it. But you've got, what, 200 odd pages worth of stories to go through?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 4, 2008)

As of right now? Only about 160 really, this last story was really short, as intended, of course this next one and the one after that is going to make up for it. I think for right now I am most excited about doing story five.


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## Tyrael (Apr 4, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> As of right now? Only about 160 really, this last story was really short, as intended, of course this next one and the one after that is going to make up for it. I think for right now I am most excited about doing story five.



So wait...I've def. asked this before but how long have your past stories been.

And looking forward to book 5? Lol, you seem to have a pretty good grasp of where you are going, not to mention some pretty ambitious plans.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 4, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> So wait...I've def. asked this before but how long have your past stories been.
> 
> And looking forward to book 5? Lol, you seem to have a pretty good grasp of where you are going, not to mention some pretty ambitious plans.



The past stories, at one point I wrote things that were like twenty pages but connected together. And I wrote one that was two hundred and thirty pages...but I scrapped it because I felt it got too far off target, right now I don't usually go over 100, but I did one that was 90 a while ago. 

Book five is essentially where the war begins, but even more so its the first time that the vampire characters get some page time. There is going to be plenty of new things revealed and one character who is out of action will make her comeback, that's also when the main bad guy is revealed.


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## Tyrael (Apr 4, 2008)

I seem to remember you mentioning there would be six books and 5 is the start of the war? Odd concept dude.


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## Batman (Apr 4, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I don't like the use of adverbs really.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is true, but there are those rare times where the paragraph will lose it's flow and in some cases its quality. I them during those times when it makes the most sense lyrically.

Those times do occur.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 4, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I actually am thinking of going through and systematically eliminating most of the adverbs from my stories, although it would be a feat indeed.



If you use a word-processing program with "search/replace" features, you could pick on specific adverbs (personally, I'd start with "suddenly" and work your way through some of the lazier-sounding ones), and either replace them with another word or phrase, or got to those points and tweak the text. Personally, I use MS Word, and I set it to check grammar _and_ style along with spelling, so while tedious, it points out certain words and phrases as it goes along, giving you a chance to ponder whether or not to change each one. Though tedious, it's still less time-consuming than trying to find them all on your own.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 5, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> If you use a word-processing program with "search/replace" features, you could pick on specific adverbs (personally, I'd start with "suddenly" and work your way through some of the lazier-sounding ones), and either replace them with another word or phrase, or got to those points and tweak the text. Personally, I use MS Word, and I set it to check grammar _and_ style along with spelling, so while tedious, it points out certain words and phrases as it goes along, giving you a chance to ponder whether or not to change each one. Though tedious, it's still less time-consuming than trying to find them all on your own.



Yeah I was planning on doing it that way....just haven't had time yet really. But I use the search feature all the time. 



Tyrael said:


> I seem to remember you mentioning there would be six books and 5 is the start of the war? Odd concept dude.



The story is going to be longer than that, more like ten books from the way its seeming.


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## Tyrael (Apr 5, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> If you use a word-processing program with "search/replace" features, you could pick on specific adverbs (personally, I'd start with "suddenly" and work your way through some of the lazier-sounding ones), and either replace them with another word or phrase, or got to those points and tweak the text. Personally, I use MS Word, and I set it to check grammar _and_ style along with spelling, so while tedious, it points out certain words and phrases as it goes along, giving you a chance to ponder whether or not to change each one. Though tedious, it's still less time-consuming than trying to find them all on your own.



Actually, you're as well just incorporating it into a full scale edit if you are gonna do that. Make other improvements, picking out adverbs as you go.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah I was planning on doing it that way....just haven't had time yet really. But I use the search feature all the time.
> 
> The story is going to be longer than that, more like ten books from the way its seeming.



Really? Ah well, now we know how much my memory is worth.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 5, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Actually, you're as well just incorporating it into a full scale edit if you are gonna do that. Make other improvements, picking out adverbs as you go.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? Ah well, now we know how much my memory is worth.



 I might have said five books but just meant the first arc, there are more arcs after the war, considering that the war is going to be what spawns the second. I haven't decided if I should add more after that, sometimes I even think of splitting the characters up for their own solo stories.


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## Tyrael (Apr 5, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I might have said five books but just meant the first arc, there are more arcs after the war, considering that the war is going to be what spawns the second. I haven't decided if I should add more after that, sometimes I even think of splitting the characters up for their own solo stories.



It's always a temptation when closing off a long running series, but how long you reckon that will take to write? Seems like a bit of a monster of a series. I do mean to write a fantasy epic thing, but I have a lot of ideas I want to try out before that, otherwise I'm trying to keep any series I do write as small as possible.

I always think of it odd to refer to writing as having a "lyrical quality" although I get the connotations that are aimed for.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 5, 2008)

Well I think of it as less of a series and more like a bunch of stories with some of the same characters, there will be characters here and there after the war ends. Some of them will be major parts of totally separate things, thats how I see it. If there are any references to the old stories, they will be small.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 5, 2008)

I have a proposal to make to Batman, Dream Brother, Tyrael, Lord Yu and the rest of the regulars here...

We need to start our own writers forum, like another forum, and I tried before but failed, you guys are some of the best and only writers I know on line, so I want to enlist help...I respect you ALL as writers and I think that together as partners we can do this. 

I know it might sound weird, but I think this is something we'd all be good at and I know that if we work together we can make something great.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 5, 2008)

Sounds interesting. WILL SAY MORE AFTER IM FREED FROM THIS CONFOUNDED PS3! Anyway, I finally got back to reading and needless to say, I have renewed confidence. I can see my weak areas and how publishable I am. I not as deviant as I thought. That means one thing. I officially have free reign to spew out everything I was subconsciosly holding(certain sexual bits) back and maybe get published.  I have issues. Though, I should probably cut back on screwball comedy. I've always wanted to have a more subtle story.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 6, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Actually, you're as well just incorporating it into a full scale edit if you are gonna do that. Make other improvements, picking out adverbs as you go.



Yeah, that's how I do it. I was just recommending it as a possible method to isolate adverbs more easily.



CTK said:


> Well I think of it as less of a series and more like a bunch of stories with some of the same characters, there will be characters here and there after the war ends. Some of them will be major parts of totally separate things, thats how I see it. If there are any references to the old stories, they will be small.



Ah, the question of where to end it. Once upon a time, I planed to write my "Tradewinds" series as One To Go On Forever, but now I doubt it will go more than seven or eight volumes. After filtering out a bunch of plot ideas and characters that didn't really "fit" into the world of that story, it tightened my vision of the larger storyline, so it's probably for the best.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 6, 2008)

If I were to break my story I don't see it going beyond 3 books. I want to tell a story not start a franchise.


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## Tyrael (Apr 6, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I have a proposal to make to Batman, Dream Brother, Tyrael, Lord Yu and the rest of the regulars here...
> 
> We need to start our own writers forum, like another forum, and I tried before but failed, you guys are some of the best and only writers I know on line, so I want to enlist help...I respect you ALL as writers and I think that together as partners we can do this.
> 
> I know it might sound weird, but I think this is something we'd all be good at and I know that if we work together we can make something great.



I would definitely consider it, sounds an interesting idea. What exactly would be involved?

Oh and on the subject of series I reckon the shorter the better-that said, the Discworld (at 30-40, maybe more, books) is my all time favourite.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 6, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I have a proposal to make to Batman, Dream Brother, Tyrael, Lord Yu and the rest of the regulars here...
> 
> We need to start our own writers forum, like another forum, and I tried before but failed, you guys are some of the best and only writers I know on line, so I want to enlist help...I respect you ALL as writers and I think that together as partners we can do this.
> 
> I know it might sound weird, but I think this is something we'd all be good at and I know that if we work together we can make something great.



I might be interested, but I've never had much luck with "alternate" message boards. I've joined several boards started by members or other established forums before, and only one of them lasted longer than a year before fading into obscurity. That, and there were a lot of issues with cost and maintenance, including outfits like EZBoard, which twist your arm into panhandling your members, extorting the entire message board with auto-censorship, flash-banners, draconian sig and avatar restrictions, and multiple pop-ups per page everywhere. As well as others that seemed as if their architecture was an entire decade behind the rest of the internet.

The only one I've ever seen that lasted long was basically a "migration" of sorts: the original forums we belonged to did a bunch of heavy-handed stunts, one after another, then wrote a nice form letter explaining how they had no obligation to their members, and would do as they pleased, ultimately pissing off about 90% of the long-standing constituency. So we packed up and moved when another member started their own message board, and the original "Stephen King" forum at S&S has been a ghost town for going on two years. I accidentally clicked my old bookmark for there a few months ago, and I actually saw _tumbleweeds_ roll across the screen. 

Then again, I myself have never been an active member of any more than 3 message boards at any given point in time, as there are only so many hours in a day. Even my joining here was a result of the Dragonball GT network folding up rather abruptly almost three years ago. Since I had started watching Naruto fansubs the year before, I decided to see if there was a forum for it, and the rest is history.

Suffice to say, it's never easy to start a message board, but if you build it, I at least will come and see what it's all about.

PS: Seriously, watch out for EZBitch, they completely destroyed Pennywisdom, which was my favorite message board ever, and I don't want to see that happen to anything you or the rest of us build.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 6, 2008)

Okay, well that being said, it would most likely involve just being there, having friends come and post and the stuff like that. The thing about it is I know a place where there really isn't much of a interruption from the ads and the like, I have modded on it before and used it before, last year when NF was experiencing its problems and the like. 

But if we were to all go in on this we could all mod or something, which is essentially what a board needs to start with.


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## Tyrael (Apr 6, 2008)

Lol, I could do the "just being there" although I am somewhat worried by Neko's experiences. There is the point though that if we have this place is an alternative place necessary?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 6, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Lol, I could do the "just being there" although I am somewhat worried by Neko's experiences. There is the point though that if we have this place is an alternative place necessary?



Not sure what you mean at the end right now. Do you mean use that place as an alternative to this place.


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## Batman (Apr 6, 2008)

Here's my feelings on creating an alternative forum.


I have a negative outlook on gathering anything productive from creating an alternative location. I've tried to join many, many other strictly writers forums, but the traffic wasn't there. Even on the more established forums with scores of members, the activity was small. And that's the benefit of having something like the Lit. Department on the Naruto forums. While there are many people already drawn to the site, its much easier for us as a writing community to bleed off those other members who may not have thought about a writing community within this forum. The commonality of this forum is a boom in Anime/Manga first and foremost, but that is to our advantage in attractive more writers to these forums. So I'm hesitant to join in creating another forum where I feel we'd spend the majority of our time trying to recruit members than developing our writing skills.


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## Tyrael (Apr 6, 2008)

How would u plan to make it grow CTK, word of mouth?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 6, 2008)

Word of mouth, on site promotion (like in sigs) and the like. We could really expand it to include more than writing to make it appeal to more and what I am more concerned about is having a place to house bigger contests, other things like than and most of all having more beta readers and people to read in general.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 8, 2008)

Did anyone else know you could create forums on Fiction Press and manage them yourself?


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## Lord Yu (Apr 8, 2008)

I've only been there 3 or 4  times


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 8, 2008)

It's not a bad site, if you just find the right members, thats the hard part.


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## Tyrael (Apr 8, 2008)

I'll take a look around it, I'm still sittin' on the fence a bit tbh.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 8, 2008)

I've gotten some good reviews and nice advice on there. One cool thing about it is if you want, all these people have to know about you is that you're a writer.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 9, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I'll take a look around it, I'm still sittin' on the fence a bit tbh.



About my stance at the moment, but I did look around there a bit, and will admit that I see possibilities. I still have some questions, most I which I couldn't find answers to in the FAQ:

-Are there any specific criteria for the story ratings? Just how much violence, cussing or sexual innuendo will push it from Teen to Mature, for instance?

-By 15 "pieces" do they mean stories or chapters? And what if what you're posting is a series that runs longer than that?

-Are there any forms of built-in censorship with Teen- or Mature-rated stories?

I could probably think of others if I wasn't so tired, but those one immediately come to mind.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 9, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> About my stance at the moment, but I did look around there a bit, and will admit that I see possibilities. I still have some questions, most I which I couldn't find answers to in the FAQ:



I probably can since I go there often.



neko-sennin said:


> -Are there any specific criteria for the story ratings? Just how much violence, cussing or sexual innuendo will push it from Teen to Mature, for instance?



Well they scrapped the NC-17 rating back when the site was still part of fan fiction.net. Now this means that a lot of yaoi and lemon type stories aren't welcome, but this is probably because back in the late 90s when I first joined Fan fiction.net all you could find was minors putting up silly over the top sex stories. The do let you push the envelope pretty far from what I have seen, authors like Faithless Juliet proved that. You can talk about sex, describe it, but just not go into real explicit details. 

When you post the story there is a little screen that shows you all of the ratings in detail. 



neko-sennin said:


> -By 15 "pieces" do they mean stories or chapters? And what if what you're posting is a series that runs longer than that?



When I say pieces I mean stories, I've posted fifteen. Each story can be arranged separately. Now they also allow chaptering. You can upload stories as chapters  and its relatively easy to arrange them and move  them, even replace them if need be. 



neko-sennin said:


> -Are there any forms of built-in censorship with Teen- or Mature-rated stories?



Nope, they just take you on you're word. But if your caught rating things wrong, you could possible get in some kind of trouble. 



neko-sennin said:


> I could probably think of others if I wasn't so tired, but those one immediately come to mind.



I used to worry about the ratings too, the good thing is I don't use much sex in stories and that's the major thing. No amount of violence seems to get you out of the Mature rating.

Plus the new Beta-reader program is nice. You can pick people out by their own preferences for the types of stories they want to read, by the type of things they look for. You can look for content readers or people who concentrate on grammatical errors.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 9, 2008)

Tonight I get my computer back. I'm about to go full force with ideas and techniques I learned from reading a novel. I've ascertained my stylistic focus areas and what I can do better with dialogue. I should probaly cut down on the dialogue. There's so much of it, it's almost like a screenplay.


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## Tyrael (Apr 9, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Tonight I get my computer back. I'm about to go full force with ideas and techniques I learned from reading a novel. I've ascertained my stylistic focus areas and what I can do better with dialogue. I should probaly cut down on the dialogue. There's so much of it, it's almost like a screenplay.



I know the feeling man, Citizen Alpha is rather infested with dialogue in places (i.e. most of the book). It's easy to forget how beneficial reading is to your writing if you fall out of the habit.

And CTK I'm still to examine the website, i'll do it tonite.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 9, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> When you post the story there is a little screen that shows you all of the ratings in detail.



For the sake of the rest of us who are contemplating membership, would you be able to post some of the specifics for us? That was one of the main things I was trying to find out, since I wasn't sure whether "Tradewinds" (for instance) would  be Teen- or Mature- rated in its entirety. For instance, though Part 1 is toned down somewhat due to the fact that it's mostly told from a child's perspective, the series as a whole has stuff that would straddle the line between PG-13 and R in terms of movie ratings, especially violence and some cursing. Especially a thread in their forum titled "Back Room M Material" whose chief grievance is that all "M" rated stuff gets crammed in with porn/erotica, and limits exposure for writers of other genres whose stuff just happens to have some more adult stuff mixed in.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 10, 2008)

This is right off the site, also I posted a story earlier if someone wants to check it out 




> *Fiction Ratings*
> 
> *Ratings Guide*
> 
> ...


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## neko-sennin (Apr 10, 2008)

There we go, that was the kind of thing I was looking for. I'm surprised that you had to go all the way into a story to find that out. Most sites are usually more blatant and in-your-face about ratings, restrictions and liabilities. At least now I can start to sort out where to put my story if I decide to join.

BTW, your story cracked me up. Dee sounds like fun person to hang out with. At least as long as you don't piss her off!


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 10, 2008)

You're welcome. And thanks, I was going for her being that funny sort of awkward, but that story needs a lot of work. BTW, the Madeleine character is based on Auraya from this site.


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## Tyrael (Apr 10, 2008)

I think if we can get a few more people interested then we could have a trial run, see how it works out: I'd be up for that anyway.

And when you said the char. was based on Auraya I was worried, for a moment, that you were talking about the "Ages of Five" (I think it is called that at least). The story was gd and shows you can use 3rd person to a fair extent.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 10, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I think if we can get a few more people interested then we could have a trial run, see how it works out: I'd be up for that anyway.
> 
> And when you said the char. was based on Auraya I was worried, for a moment, that you were talking about the "Ages of Five" (I think it is called that at least). The story was gd and shows you can use 3rd person to a fair extent.



Also like I said you can create and maintain your own forum on this site too.

But I don't know what Ages of Five is. I just meant the member Auraya here, she posts in the Flash Fic sometimes. She's a pretty good friend of mine and I even asked her to read over the story to see if those were things she would say, because she's British and all.


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## Tyrael (Apr 10, 2008)

As I said, I'll give it a spin if we get a few more willing to do it. Anyone else use any other sites for writing advice/community?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 11, 2008)

I went back and tore into , the last one I posted it and had an edit at it. I had some help from a friend getting some British sayings and ways of speech right and the story in general just had a lot of little things I didn't like in it so I changed them.


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## Tyrael (Apr 11, 2008)

The idea of writing short unrelated tangent type stories based around chars ur trying to establish has always appealed to me. Sadly I end up starting but not finishin' most.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 11, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> The idea of writing short unrelated tangent type stories based around chars ur trying to establish has always appealed to me. Sadly I end up starting but not finishin' most.



They don't have to be that long. Some of mine are a few hundred words. The Madeleine and Dee one just happens to be more than that. I actually plan to make several little shorts like this with my characters. I kind of already have started.


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## Tyrael (Apr 11, 2008)

I find it's a good way to get yourself more involved with your protagonists and serves as a break from your story when you hit a wall (I'm currently climbing over one). I do feel they should be at least 3,000 words to warrant their writing though (I've yet to fini' one to date).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 11, 2008)

Most of mine are between 800 and 2,500. I think its a good size. But yeah, the word limit was one of the reason I couldn't work on the flash fic, I felt it was too short to mean anything.


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## Tyrael (Apr 11, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Most of mine are between 800 and 2,500. I think its a good size. But yeah, the word limit was one of the reason I couldn't work on the flash fic, I felt it was too short to mean anything.



Lol, I'm sure you know my thoughts on that matter off by heart by now: if nothing else it's just good fun.

You making headway with your 3rd story?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 11, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Lol, I'm sure you know my thoughts on that matter off by heart by now: if nothing else it's just good fun.
> 
> You making headway with your 3rd story?



The third? It's done, the fourth one is what I am now and I'm taking a rest. But I will be getting on with it soon here it looks like. I just got a new DVD box set I am preoccupied with.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 11, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I find it's a good way to get yourself more involved with your protagonists and serves as a break from your story when you hit a wall (I'm currently climbing over one). I do feel they should be at least 3,000 words to warrant their writing though (I've yet to fini' one to date).



I have practically a whole nother novel planned for one of the antagonists. Before I can write it I have to repair the damages done by all this retconning I've been doing lately.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 11, 2008)

Having to Retcon sucks...it sucks so bad that the last massive retcon I had planned turned into me rewriting my entire series from the start. I was up to book eight then.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 11, 2008)

I just have to rewrite and expand a few chapters.


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## Tyrael (Apr 11, 2008)

Damn your a fast writer CTK, a book in two-ish months? I'm lucky if I get another done this yr (wanted to be 25K words by now, only a pitiful 17K has been achieved).

A whole book for the antagonist? Nice-theyre always the fun ones to write.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 11, 2008)

I wrote book three weeks, it was a seventy page one too. I really had fun doing it. The story just flowed from me it seemed. I don't know how else to explain it. 

Have you ever set some plot line or detail up in one story or early in a book and then forgot to execute it?


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## Tyrael (Apr 11, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I wrote book three weeks, it was a seventy page one too. I really had fun doing it. The story just flowed from me it seemed. I don't know how else to explain it.
> 
> *Have you ever set some plot line or detail up in one story or early in a book and then forgot to execute it?*



Yep, that's my writing process.

But 3 weeks? I do hear people talkin' about how it flows and they can produce large amounts easily...I Just happen to come up woefully badly on that count.


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## Batman (Apr 11, 2008)

I'm finally editing by hand. I feel like dancin.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 11, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Yep, that's my writing process.
> 
> But 3 weeks? I do hear people talkin' about how it flows and they can produce large amounts easily...I Just happen to come up woefully badly on that count.



I have posted bits and pieces of the second story more than once, it turned out really good too. Back then there was a member here who would read my stories, she's been gone a while now...but she helped me work on it. 

Most of the little short stories I do only take me an hour.


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## Tyrael (Apr 11, 2008)

Batman said:


> I'm finally editing by hand. I feel like dancin.



Lol, I see your dancing already.

This still the same thing or a diff. story your editing?



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I have posted bits and pieces of the second story more than once, it turned out really good too. Back then there was a member here who would read my stories, she's been gone a while now...but she helped me work on it.
> 
> Most of the little short stories I do only take me an hour.



That's great to hear, I really struggle to find anyway to reliably read my stories, though half my stuff does generate a little attention. And an hour as really good going.


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## Batman (Apr 11, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Lol, I see your dancing already.
> 
> This still the same thing or a diff. story your editing?



It's the same story. Out of the ones I've written its the one I'm going to push forward first, so its gotta be tight. Then i'll pay a professional editor, and then i'll take my chances.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 12, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> They don't have to be that long. Some of mine are a few hundred words. The Madeleine and Dee one just happens to be more than that. I actually plan to make several little shorts like this with my characters. I kind of already have started.



I've done that a couple times. One of them even ended up becoming an actual chapter in a later version of the story.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 12, 2008)

Some of the short stories I did were supposed to be other parts of longer stories. Or they ended up being part of longer ones.


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## Tyrael (Apr 12, 2008)

Prof. ed? Your takin' this all the way eh Batman? Good luck, hope to see your name on the bestsellers list in the future.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 12, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I think if we can get a few more people interested then we could have a trial run, see how it works out: I'd be up for that anyway.



Add me to the list, I just joined Fiction Press today, under my old school name, "shadesmaclean"-- but it's going to be a while before you see anything.

Just a word of warning to anyone else, though: once you jump through all the hoops to join... _they make you wait *two whole days* before you can post anything._ What the hell is up with that? 

If they did this kind of crap to message boards, people'd probably get pissed...  then get bored...  then get a life...  A lot can happen in 48 hours.  Or maybe it's just because this has been the story of my life all week long, dealing with outfits that aren't ready to do business the same day I am...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 12, 2008)

Yeah Sundae just told me the same thing, she said it was too hard to wait all that time to join. I hate how sites do that shit but its probably a security measure.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 12, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah Sundae just told me the same thing, she said it was too hard to wait all that time to join. I hate how sites do that shit but its probably a security measure.



[SPOILER="MY WEEK" RANT]Yeah, yeah, my haircut, my taxes, my equipment, my manga, now my novel... I'm getting really tired of the Old Mexican No Can Do here, so Monday I'm taking my game up the road to Ventura, where people have some respect for paying customers' time, and for the cost of bus fare, I damn well better come back to Panorama with shorter hair, to say nothing of the next volume of Saiyuki Reload... [/SPOILER]

You'd think they'd at least do you courtesy of telling you that on the _opening screen_ when you register-- instead of waiting and springing it on you by surprise _after_ you're all set up to post your first chapter. And here I was hoping to start catching up with where I am here on the board, since I won't be posing the next chapter here until after the FF ratings are done...


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## Lord Yu (Apr 13, 2008)

Finally, started my rewrite. Now maybe I'll work on it this time.


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## Tyrael (Apr 13, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> *Spoiler*: _MY WEEK" RANT]Yeah, yeah, my haircut, my taxes, my equipment, my manga, now my novel... I'm getting really tired of the Old Mexican No Can Do here, so Monday I'm taking my game up the road to Ventura, where people have some respect for paying customers' time, and for the cost of bus fare, I damn well better come back to Panorama with shorter hair, to say nothing of the next volume of Saiyuki Reload... :cussing[/SPOILER]
> 
> You'd think they'd at least do you courtesy of telling you that on the [I]opening screen[/I] when you register-- instead of waiting and springing it on you by surprise [I]after[/I] you're all set up to post your first chapter. And here I was hoping to start catching up with where I am here on the board, since I won't be posing the next chapter here until after the FF ratings are done...[/QUOTE]
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: _MY WEEK" RANT]Yeah, yeah, my haircut, my taxes, my equipment, my manga, now my novel... I'm getting really tired of the Old Mexican No Can Do here, so Monday I'm taking my game up the road to Ventura, where people have some respect for paying customers' time, and for the cost of bus fare, I damn well better come back to Panorama with shorter hair, to say nothing of the next volume of Saiyuki Reload... :cussing[/SPOILER]

You'd think they'd at least do you courtesy of telling you that on the [I]opening screen[/I] when you register-- instead of waiting and springing it on you by surprise [I]after[/I] you're all set up to post your first chapter. And here I was hoping to start catching up with where I am here on the board, since I won't be posing the next chapter here until after the FF ratings are done...[/QUOTE]

Ouch, not sure exactly what did happen but it sounds frustrating. Mentally I've been fragmented as of late so I'm struggling with writing and consider giving up just about everyday. I'll get over it though (I hope).

Oh and I'll have a look at your updates of Tradewind, I've kinda let the feedback go a bit slack. Tbh, the delay in posting doesn't really bother me-it's a security mechanism against bots or something I heard.

[quote="Lord Yu, post: 15389564_ 





That would help, lol. It does sound like your either going through a period of heavy refinement and quality control or are being overly pedantic.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 13, 2008)

I want to lay the proper foundation for my current story and repair the damage of retconning, as well as establish a narrative voice.


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## Tyrael (Apr 13, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I want to lay the proper foundation for my current story and repair the damage of retconning, as well as establish a narrative voice.



A mixture of all three then (they're all essentially the same thing anyway)?

Narrative voice is a bastard, one little sentence can throw it off and as it develops you lose consistency. For still fairly amateur writers I would imagine this would be one of the most common complaints.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 13, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Tbh, the delay in posting doesn't really bother me-it's a security mechanism against bots or something I heard.



Oh, I thought that was the part where I had to type the words from the distorted images... but never mind. What it means is that, due to its anal, down -to-the-minute timing, I probably won't be able to post the beginning until _after_ work tomorrow, but I can at least post the next chapter _here_.



Tyrael said:


> Oh and I'll have a look at your updates of Tradewind, I've kinda let the feedback go a bit slack.



No prob, the reason I've been posting on such a leisurely schedule is to give people time to read each chapter. I found with past projects that if you go too fast, it ceases to be fun for most readers anymore if they feel like they "have to" keep up. I know you've got projects of your own, so feel free to read it at your leisure, I'm not going to delete it when it's finished or anything crazy like that.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 13, 2008)

I just decided to write two stories that take places in the same time frame in two different locations.


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## Tyrael (Apr 13, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Oh, I thought that was the part where I had to type the words from the distorted images... but never mind. What it means is that, due to its anal, down -to-the-minute timing, I probably won't be able to post the beginning until _after_ work tomorrow, but I can at least post the next chapter _here_.
> 
> No prob, the reason I've been posting on such a leisurely schedule is to give people time to read each chapter. I found with past projects that if you go too fast, it ceases to be fun for most readers anymore if they feel like they "have to" keep up. I know you've got projects of your own, so feel free to read it at your leisure, I'm not going to delete it when it's finished or anything crazy like that.



Yeah, I was getting muddled up with the word thing, it must just be to put off people who intend to spam: only someone who genuinely has something to share would bother waiting two days.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I just decided to write two stories that take places in the same time frame in two different locations.



Two of your big stories from this on-going series?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 13, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Two of your big stories from this on-going series?



Two of the big ones, I realized there was too much going on for there to be one story and all of the characters would get too confusing.


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## Tyrael (Apr 13, 2008)

Will they interact with each other in a way that only by reading both do the books make sense?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 13, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Will they interact with each other in a way that only by reading both do the books make sense?



Nope, all of the younger characters will be absent from the middle of one and will be off on their own. The other story will continue without being interrupted, there will be small references, but the plots won't interact directly. Think Resident Resident Evil two and three.


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## Tyrael (Apr 13, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Nope, all of the younger characters will be absent from the middle of one and will be off on their own. The other story will continue without being interrupted, there will be small references, but the plots won't interact directly. Think Resident Resident Evil two and three.



Lol, didn't the whole of the third game take place when a character from the second fell unconscious for a few hours or so?


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## neko-sennin (Apr 13, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Will they interact with each other in a way that only by reading both do the books make sense?





Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Nope, all of the younger characters will be absent from the middle of one and will be off on their own. The other story will continue without being interrupted, there will be small references, but the plots won't interact directly. Think Resident Resident Evil two and three.



Yeah, that's a trick that takes a lot of planning and careful editing to pull off. In a later part of my series, I had a part where all of the main characters are separated, but some of where they went and what they did affected the others in ways they were often oblivious to, but I ended up having to write each character's narrative separately before melding all of the chapters together, very carefully, to make the timing of those subtle interactions work.


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## Tyrael (Apr 13, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Yeah, that's a trick that takes a lot of planning and careful editing to pull off. In a later part of my series, I had a part where all of the main characters are separated, but some of where they went and what they did affected the others in ways they were often oblivious to, but I ended up having to write each character's narrative separately before melding all of the chapters together, very carefully, to make those subtle interactions work.



Sounds interesting and, yeah, you'd have to be pretty intense with the planning.

I am going to write a fantasy about a group of soldiers. Each chapter will be based around the protagonist's interaction with one other member of his squad and much of it will have depth that will come clear as more interactions/events are revealed (think Pulp Fiction).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 13, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Lol, didn't the whole of the third game take place when a character from the second fell unconscious for a few hours or so?



The third game takes place before two, and after, two takes place in a matter of hours. While three basically last through the whole outbreak in the city. When two is happening, three is started, but the main story hasn't begun, when two ends the character in three is probably just starting out. The lab is destroyed somewhere in the end of two, but in three the whole city gets nuked. Also in three one of the characters you see alive briefly at the start, is a zombie in two, so a very small part of three, (I think she takes a break) takes place before two. But the majority is after.


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## Tyrael (Apr 13, 2008)

So it was the other way around? I was reasonably close at least (Nemesis used to scare me shitless).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 13, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Yeah, that's a trick that takes a lot of planning and careful editing to pull off. In a later part of my series, I had a part where all of the main characters are separated, but some of where they went and what they did affected the others in ways they were often oblivious to, but I ended up having to write each character's narrative separately before melding all of the chapters together, very carefully, to make the timing of those subtle interactions work.



The thing is the younger set of characters will be in another dimension, I know it might sound crazy, but that's what is going on. I think all and all the characters in the kids story are going to be  having the rougher time...

Oh and the way I envision it is that the fourth story begins before story five and ends after story five. Basically someone reading four will know a bit of what happens in five.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 13, 2008)

I have decided to utilize a mix of third and second person.


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## Tyrael (Apr 14, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I have decided to utilize a mix of third and second person.



That'll be trippy. And awkward to write I would imagine.

Oh and I'm now part of wordpress (Pen name "Dowie").


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 14, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> That'll be trippy. And awkward to write I would imagine.
> 
> Oh and I'm now part of wordpress (Pen name "Dowie").



Oh, I was wondering who that was! Thanks for the add.

I am changing a little bit of the plans for the story. I decided to make the story with the kids come first in the story line up and the story that happens on both sides of it next. That way nothing is spoiled. 

I've also decided the plot for this story. I plan to utilize an old plot in a way. It involved the kids going on a field trip and being kidnapped. Except this time they're going to be trying to escape being kidnapped and they accidentally get sucked into another dimension with the kidnappers after them. Well they're not kidnappers anymore, they're trying to murder them in this write. 

The other dimension has a slower moving time scale, and at the same time there can be monsters and threats that the normal world can't offer. Plus the rules can be completely changed.


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## Tyrael (Apr 14, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Oh, I was wondering who that was! Thanks for the add.
> 
> I am changing a little bit of the plans for the story. I decided to make the story with the kids come first in the story line up and the story that happens on both sides of it next. That way nothing is spoiled.
> 
> ...



I'm sure that you'll find it slowly change as you write it-such things have a tendency to do that and mostly it's a good thing (happened to me a few times). And nae probs man, I look forward to seeing what else you upload.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 14, 2008)

I will be uploading a rewrite of some stuff tonight, But I am working on getting ready to upload an entire large story once again!


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## Tyrael (Apr 14, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I will be uploading a rewrite of some stuff tonight, But I am working on getting ready to upload an entire large story once again!



An entire large story on wordpress?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 14, 2008)

I have one of them up, it takes a while, but yeah I have done it before. I had the 200 pager I wrote up a long time ago.


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## Tyrael (Apr 14, 2008)

Ruin and Creation?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 14, 2008)

Yeah that's the first story in the series.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 15, 2008)

Well, now I'm officially up and running on Fiction Press. I meant to announce it earlier, but it took up my entire lunch break to figure out how to set it up now that I was finally allowed to, so I had to wait until I got back. I just posted the prologue and chapter 1 of "Tradewinds"-- and will probably maintain a slightly faster-paced posting schedule there until I "catch up" with what I've posted here. After that, I plan to continue doing simultaneous releases both there and here.

My pen name there is "shadesmaclean".


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 15, 2008)

You might have to post your link as the search feature seems unable to find you.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 15, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You might have to post your link as the search feature seems unable to find you.





or



I think it's supposed to be both? 

Or, go to the "fantasy" section and allow for "M" rated stories to appear, and Tradewinds should be available to read.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 15, 2008)

Alright added, its kind of hard to find people on here since the site is going through some new adjustments and changes, you know. I was going to say that there's this author on there with very good but dark poetry that I like and I have been reading her stuff for some time now. I was going to post a link to her:


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## Tyrael (Apr 15, 2008)

Lol, you switched from 3rd to 1st in your bio., I'll give you an add though.

You said Einstein is on there? (ironic going to a new site to find NF members).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 15, 2008)

I think she said that she lost the account information since then but I guess she could be persuaded to go back if there were more of us there. But you guys could post the flash fics you're already done or something like that, pretty much everything you've seen me put up here is on there. I had to hunt some of it down because I hadn't actually saved it on this comp, but its there.


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## Tyrael (Apr 15, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I think she said that she lost the account information since then but I guess she could be persuaded to go back if there were more of us there. But you guys could post the flash fics you're already done or something like that, pretty much everything you've seen me put up here is on there. I had to hunt some of it down because I hadn't actually saved it on this comp, but its there.



I reckon I'll upload one of them, I'm workin' on anothr thing that I intend to upload, 'cause I've completely lost the ability to work on my long term stuff.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 15, 2008)

Yeah my long term stuff is suffering but I have a lot of editing to do when it comes to some of the stuff I have already posted, Auraya has helped as I said as have some of the posting members on the site too. Its been nice to get some positive feedback. If you were to read that Madeleine and Dee story now its like a different tale.


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## Tyrael (Apr 15, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah my long term stuff is suffering but I have a lot of editing to do when it comes to some of the stuff I have already posted, Auraya has helped as I said as have some of the posting members on the site too. Its been nice to get some positive feedback. If you were to read that Madeleine and Dee story now its like a different tale.



I'll give it a look, does wordpress have any sort of protection for the material you post there?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 15, 2008)

Protection? Like Copyright or something like that, or a download feature to back it up? You can use it as a back up I think.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 15, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Lol, you switched from 3rd to 1st in your bio., I'll give you an add though.



I did? Oops. I guess it was because, on one hand it felt awkward talking so much about myself, rather than my work, but on the other, it felt weird to speak of myself in the third person. Guess I'm just gonna have to cook a better bio.


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## Tyrael (Apr 15, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Protection? Like Copyright or something like that, or a download feature to back it up? You can use it as a back up I think.



Copyright.



neko-sennin said:


> I did? Oops. I guess it was because, on one hand it felt awkward talking so much about myself, rather than my work, but on the other, it felt weird to speak of myself in the third person. Guess I'm just gonna have to cook a better bio.



Heh, have you seen mine?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 15, 2008)

Not that I know of other than the little thing at the bottom of the page. Did you see the changes I made to that story.


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## Tyrael (Apr 15, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Not that I know of other than the little thing at the bottom of the page. Did you see the changes I made to that story.



No, I will look over it once I'm fini what I'm up to at the moment however.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 15, 2008)

I think I might go on there and do some more reviewing later tonight.


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## Tyrael (Apr 15, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I think I might go on there and do some more reviewing later tonight.



I think it's def. improved, a nicer pacing. There are some bits you have to watch like:



> It?s going to take too much of my power to teleport back out of here



Why would she say this? and:



> She thought that these were guys without generally good intentions for her and her friend.



Perhaps unnecessary, you've already told the reader subtly this so putting it bluntly detracts from the text.

Also a little more description in hell would be helpful, but overall its an improvement, good work.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 15, 2008)

Thanks for checking it out, I think I might work on some fan fiction...something to do with Supernatural.


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## Tyrael (Apr 16, 2008)

A story is up, let me know what you guys think.

What's Supernatural?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 17, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> A story is up, let me know what you guys think.
> 
> What's Supernatural?



It's like the only thing I watch anymore that's a new show. It's on the CW, its about these two brothers that hunt demons and ghosts and just all manner of supernatural beings. Originally they were trying to find the demon that murdered their mother and burned their house down when they were kids. But the show is growing and changing...you know the drill. 

And I shall check it out. Also Tyrael and anyone else on the site, if you want reviews go here and play the review game:


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## Lord Yu (Apr 17, 2008)

I avoid the CW like the plague lol.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 17, 2008)

It's no worse than any of the other Networks...I mean honestly if you pick the right shows on a channel its good. Every channel has some bad shit on.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 17, 2008)

I tend to have the TV off and watch what my mom has on.


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## Einstein (Apr 17, 2008)

Any of you ever tried to write scripts or screenplays?


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## Tyrael (Apr 17, 2008)

Einstein said:


> Any of you ever tried to write scripts or screenplays?



Some of my earlier works (and even more recent ones) have turned out more like screenplays than stories and I am contemplating doing one in the future but for all intensive purposes no. You thinkin' about one yourself?

And cheers CTK, you're perhaps too kind. But RPG? Interesting idea.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 17, 2008)

Einstein said:


> Any of you ever tried to write scripts or screenplays?



Some of my friends' harshest critiques of many of my earlier stories had to do with them reading more like action choreography than flowing prose, but if you mean a real script, I did work briefly with an artist a few years ago who was trying to start a comic book. I actually did some research on professional comics script writing, and wrote a couple chapters for him. After that, he moved out of town and we fell out of touch. If I remember correctly, I e-mailed him all of my notes, since what I was helping him with was originally _his_ concept, and I've never heard of him since. I wish him the best of luck, wherever he is now.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 17, 2008)

Einstein said:


> Any of you ever tried to write scripts or screenplays?



Oh hell no, I started to once and I realized how complex it is and how hard the format is to get down. They have a program for it and I have a friend writing one now. But I don't think I've ever had an idea that would in and of itself make a good screenplay. 



Tyrael said:


> Some of my earlier works (and even more recent ones) have turned out more like screenplays than stories and I am contemplating doing one in the future but for all intensive purposes no. You thinkin' about one yourself?
> 
> And cheers CTK, you're perhaps too kind. But RPG? Interesting idea.



Well I could see that story being the prologue to some great epic, either to save this town or to stop and evil force, or both. Just think something like Final Fantasy XII.


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## Tyrael (Apr 17, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Oh hell no, I started to once and I realized how complex it is and how hard the format is to get down. They have a program for it and I have a friend writing one now. But I don't think I've ever had an idea that would in and of itself make a good screenplay.
> 
> Well I could see that story being the prologue to some great epic, either to save this town or to stop and evil force, or both. Just think something like Final Fantasy XII.



I might take that up that challenge, it was never meant as more than a one off but the comparison to FFXII opening is a high one (pity the actual story in the game didn't hack it).

But the idea of doing that sort of story has really gripped me. I might try it out, I always wanted to write something worthy of VII, IX or X (3 of the best games/stories ever).


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## Lord Yu (Apr 17, 2008)

3 of the best ever? RAGE! VII rips Berserk, 9 was fun but hardly the best story and X was just meh. Stuff like Xenogears/Xenosaga, Deus Ex, Shin Megami Tensei rips them apart. 

bAh I'll lay off. I just get pissed when people go overrating VII. I apologize blah blah opinions etc. I've always been an aspiring game writer. I know game stories inside out. I've played shitloads of story heavy games.


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## Tyrael (Apr 17, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> 3 of the best ever? RAGE! VII rips Berserk, 9 was fun but hardly the best story and X was just meh. Stuff like Xenogears/Xenosaga, Deus Ex, Shin Megami Tensei rips them apart.
> 
> bAh I'll lay off. I just get pissed when people go overrating VII. I apologize blah blah opinions etc. I've always been an aspiring game writer. I know game stories inside out. I've played shitloads of story heavy games.



Actually I reckoned the story, characterisation and pace of IX far surpassed anything else. X was guilty of waylaying side chars towards the end but overall I have a hard time picking out huge faults. VII is overrated but had many moments of brilliance but had interesting themes and great depth in some places and characters, although the way secondary characters are treated is pretty much crap.

I have never played any of the games you listed though, so they may very well be better. When it comes to both stories I, like you and many others, have been influenced by games so would like to mention Legacy of Kain and Diablo II as having great storylines (although the latter mention may confuse anyone whom has played it).


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## Lord Yu (Apr 17, 2008)

6 by by far had the best characterization. I really couldn't say if it even had a main character.


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## Tyrael (Apr 17, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> 6 by by far had the best characterization. I really couldn't say if it even had a main character.



6 had some interesting stuff in there and there wasn't a clear protagonist, but I prefer the 3 I listed in all truth.


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## Einstein (Apr 17, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Some of my earlier works (and even more recent ones) have turned out more like screenplays than stories and I am contemplating doing one in the future but for all intensive purposes no. You thinkin' about one yourself?


I have before, but not for professional reasons. Usually, for practice, I take a short story I've read and make it into a script. The one I did using my own idea was so tedious I trashed it before I even finished (it was about teachers using a crystal ball to see some of their students' futures.. the stoner would turn out to be an entreprenuer, the geek a pizza guy, etc.. and they'd bet and the teacher who was right got some sort of reward.. it got more and more tragic each turn/student, and it was going to end when they watch one of the students commit suicide. But it was really just a process of Bet-Look in crystal ball-See future-Bet-look in crystal ball, etc etc, so I quit it.) 

For a project in Theatre Arts class, we're directing a short, 5-minute duet scene, using film and all. I had such a hard time finding a good script, I just wrote my own. Still based off of someone else's story, but written nonetheless. We aren't doing anything with it, so it's not against a copyright, right?



> Some of my friends' harshest critiques of many of my earlier stories had to do with them reading more like action choreography than flowing prose, but if you mean a real script, I did work briefly with an artist a few years ago who was trying to start a comic book. I actually did some research on professional comics script writing, and wrote a couple chapters for him. After that, he moved out of town and we fell out of touch. If I remember correctly, I e-mailed him all of my notes, since what I was helping him with was originally his concept, and I've never heard of him since. I wish him the best of luck, wherever he is now.


Wow, the same thing happened to me with the comic book thing. I was the writer, my friend the artist, but she was a lazy, procrastinating bum (I _hate_ procrastination), so it was extremely short-lived.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 17, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Xenogears/Xenosaga, Deus Ex, Shin Megami Tensei



You familiar with Suikoden, by any chance? That series always has a huge cast of characters (the 108 Stars of Destiny), and epic storylines. It really sounds like a fun game series to write a script or scenario for.



Einstein said:


> Wow, the same thing happened to me with the comic book thing. I was the writer, my friend the artist, but she was a lazy, procrastinating bum (I _hate_ procrastination), so it was extremely short-lived.



Ah, in my case, I choose to blame myself. I'm a lousy correspondent, and I've never been very good at long-distance relationships. To say nothing of a lot of chaotic and disruptive things going on in my life that year.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 17, 2008)

I have...well had the whole series. Did you know it's based on a Chinese legend?


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## neko-sennin (Apr 17, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I have...well had the whole series. Did you know it's based on a Chinese legend?



Yup, intriguing stuff. Though I only recently got my hands on V, and I've never gotten to play the first one.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 17, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I might take that up that challenge, it was never meant as more than a one off but the comparison to FFXII opening is a high one (pity the actual story in the game didn't hack it).
> 
> But the idea of doing that sort of story has really gripped me. I might try it out, I always wanted to write something worthy of VII, IX or X (3 of the best games/stories ever).



I loved XII, but sorry I couldn't stand IX, VII and X I will agree with and III and VI too. 



Tyrael said:


> Actually I reckoned the story, characterisation and pace of IX far surpassed anything else. X was guilty of waylaying side chars towards the end but overall I have a hard time picking out huge faults. VII is overrated but had many moments of brilliance but had interesting themes and great depth in some places and characters, although the way secondary characters are treated is pretty much crap.



Too bad the characters really blew. They were so archetypal. It was like they mixed Aladdin with some fairytales and stuff. And some of the dialog, like when Ziadane grabs Garnets butt and goes "Ooo Squishy". Or some of the plot parts. 

I'm a fan of Xenosaga and Gears, but I haven't played them all.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 17, 2008)

I personally thought XII's plot worked well as a tranquilizer. Their attempts to go grey fell pretty flat. Methinks Squenix should spend less time on the graphics and more time on the plot development. But I digress. This is about our works. 

I'm also including first person monologues in my rewrite. So I'm covering all the bases as far as perspective goes. X3


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 18, 2008)

Ah I just wrote something I am kind of excited about, it started as just a short but it might turn into a miniseries or a short story or something. Its basically back story for the series featuring two of the key characters--not sure where it will fall in the time line. But I will have to redo my time line and it looks like sketch some simple maps to use for reference. 

, if someone could check it out, please?


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## Tyrael (Apr 18, 2008)

Lol, I take it you're enjoying that combination I take it? I'm getting chucked off my comp at the mo, but I'll check it out sometime today.

Oh, and while the chars in IX didn't push the boundaries they were examples good story telling at there core. Deep, engaging and more than played their part. I agree with Yu about XII though.


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## Adonis (Apr 18, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I have...well had the whole series. Did you know it's based on a Chinese legend?



Shui Hu Zhuan by Shi Naian and Luo Guanzhong...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 19, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Lol, I take it you're enjoying that combination I take it? I'm getting chucked off my comp at the mo, but I'll check it out sometime today.



The sketching and time line? The time line is kind of a pain in the ass because mine has to go from BC to present and then ahead some. It's really more of a tool for me to keep the stories consistent, you know? 

I hate knowing I've changed things in later stories and messed them up.


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## Tyrael (Apr 19, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The sketching and time line? The time line is kind of a pain in the ass because mine has to go from BC to present and then ahead some. It's really more of a tool for me to keep the stories consistent, you know?
> 
> I hate knowing I've changed things in later stories and messed them up.



Lol, I meant the combination of maddie and dee.

Consistency is really, really important, but surprisingly hard so I'm with you there. If you are not careful it will be pounced upon, you've seen my comments yeah?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 19, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Lol, I meant the combination of maddie and dee.
> 
> Consistency is really, really important, but surprisingly hard so I'm with you there. If you are not careful it will be pounced upon, you've seen my comments yeah?



Oh that combination! I love writing those two--its kind of odd because I meant for Madeleine to be Dee's partner more or less, but I had no idea they'd be so good partnered up. The partner thing was just so far as their back story, I didn't plan on having them be in scenes together that much. They were just supposed to be working together for the same goal.

Just not always in the same scene or even story. But as it turns out their really nice together. And yeah I have seen the comments, thanks. I have been trying to work some on a second chapter while posting and reading stuff from the review game thread.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 19, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Oh that combination! I love writing those two--its kind of odd because I meant for Madeleine to be Dee's partner more or less, but I had no idea they'd be so good partnered up. The partner thing was just so far as their back story, I didn't plan on having them be in scenes together that much. They were just supposed to be working together for the same goal.
> 
> Just not always in the same scene or even story. But as it turns out their really nice together. And yeah I have seen the comments, thanks. I have been trying to work some on a second chapter while posting and reading stuff from the review game thread.



Now that I've got a day off, I'll have to check out your new stuff.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I hate knowing I've changed things in later stories and messed them up.





Tyrael said:


> Consistency is really, really important, but surprisingly hard so I'm with you there. If you are not careful it will be pounced upon, you've seen my comments yeah?



Yes, along with character psychology, consistency is basically the equivalent of "realism" in fiction, especially the more fantasy types.

BTW, Tyrael, about your FP review, don't worry yourself too much about the short chapter lengths in Part 1. From chapter 5 to chapter 10, things are narrowly focused on short scenes, but as you'll soon see, from chapter 11 onward, both the chapter length and focus broaden back out again for the remainder of the story.

When I originally wrote this, I pictured it as a novel, and gave no thought to the implications of posting it online back then. As a result, the chapter lengths through this part may have appeared to be "trying to hard" to generate suspense, when in a finished novel, one could simply go on to the next chapter.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 19, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Now that I've got a day off, I'll have to check out your new stuff.



Cool, has anyone checked out the link to the review game I posted? Its a really good way to pick up reviews, get to know other writers and get some good feedback. 




neko-sennin said:


> Yes, along with character psychology, consistency is basically the equivalent of "realism" in fiction, especially the more fantasy types.



I had a problem with my characters changing too much between stories in the past and it was one of the reasons I rewrote this stuff some time back. But now they're on track. I think one thing its hard to do is write a character in one tense and then another but convey the same emotions.


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## Batman (Apr 19, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Ah I just wrote something I am kind of excited about, it started as just a short but it might turn into a miniseries or a short story or something. Its basically back story for the series featuring two of the key characters--not sure where it will fall in the time line. But I will have to redo my time line and it looks like sketch some simple maps to use for reference.
> 
> , if someone could check it out, please?


I enjoyed this story a lot. Your style of writing is very clean, straightforward, and informative. My overall impressions about the characters was good, though about halfway through Dee and Madeline felt like they were blending together some. I had a bit of difficulty telling them apart at times, which took away a bit from their distinctive characterization you had developed at the start of the story.

At parts you ran the risk of stepping into cliche, Satan in a white suite with blue eyes and forked tongue, a couple of phrases like _"I think we need to keep our relationship strictly professional"_ and _"I sense an Aura around you."_, but it didn't really slow the story. You rode that line either through humor, or by jarring me back into your own world with some kid of interesting plot point of phrase.

My initial reactions to certain phrases are below.

*?Your belittling him, he?s a grown horse!?*

Ahahaha. lol. That line really made me laugh.

*Dee stepped in behind him, brandishing her scythe now.*

This confused me a bit. Where did she get the weapon? Did she snatch it out of thin air? Was it always on her back or at her side or leaning against her horse. One extra sentence could clarify this.

*There?s fighting in Hell?? Madeleine asked.*
My thoughts --->Isn't there always?


Overall I wanted more, so i suppose that's a good thing. Its been a while since I had time to read through one of your stories, but your writing style has definitely improved imo. Keep it up.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 19, 2008)

Batman said:


> I enjoyed this story a lot. Your style of writing is very clean, straightforward, and informative. My overall impressions about the characters was good, though about halfway through Dee and Madeline felt like they were blending together some. I had a bit of difficulty telling them apart at times, which took away a bit from their distinctive characterization you had developed at the start of the story.



I've been debating whether or not I should actually write more of Madeleine's British accent in, at least a little of it to distinguish her. plus in the situation I think it was hard to keep them distinct. I need to work on it. But the next chapter promises to really set them apart. 


Batman said:


> At parts you ran the risk of stepping into cliche, Satan in a white suite with blue eyes and forked tongue, a couple of phrases like _"I think we need to keep our relationship strictly professional"_ and _"I sense an Aura around you."_, but it didn't really slow the story. You rode that line either through humor, or by jarring me back into your own world with some kid of interesting plot point of phrase.



Its kind of hard to stay off the cliches and usually all I can hope to do is like you said place humor or other interesting things around them. I might be able to change some of it, of course the relationship comment was put in there just so Madeleine could make her comment. 


Batman said:


> My initial reactions to certain phrases are below.
> 
> *?Your belittling him, he?s a grown horse!?*
> 
> Ahahaha. lol. That line really made me laugh.



Its weird when you think about it, its kind of funny. 



Batman said:


> *Dee stepped in behind him, brandishing her scythe now.*
> 
> This confused me a bit. Where did she get the weapon? Did she snatch it out of thin air? Was it always on her back or at her side or leaning against her horse. One extra sentence could clarify this.



The whole thing is the scythe will either appear when she needs it, or appear on its own if it thinks its needed. Its alive. 



Batman said:


> *There?s fighting in Hell?? Madeleine asked.*
> My thoughts --->Isn't there always?



Lol not really, its more like being tortured I guess. 


Batman said:


> Overall I wanted more, so i suppose that's a good thing. Its been a while since I had time to read through one of your stories, but your writing style has definitely improved imo. Keep it up.



Thanks, I think people just like my third person better though. My friend Kay last night was raving about this story too and begging me to do more.


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## Suigetsu12 (Apr 20, 2008)

Thank jebus there's a thread for this sort of thing! Yay!

Anyway I'm currently writi ng a book, I hand wrot e a 250 page draft initially, and now I'm typing up and expanding it. I started this weekand I'm on page 101 as we speak...

It's very long, and I'm planning a series, it's a fantasy book, set in the future (interestingly not sci-fi) and deals with moral situations as the core of the storyline. The problem is some aspects of the book, I have been warned, may cause extreme public offence. Whilst I'm only 16 and I've been writitng this one book series for about 3 years now, I'm not sure whether this book could be successful, or backfire completely

Anyway, If I find a publisher and It gets published, I'll let you guys know. If anyone wants to know a bit more about it, PM me (because I'd rather not say in a public forum were offence may be caused)


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## Tyrael (Apr 20, 2008)

Have you uploaded the whole of your first two stories CTK?

I'll have the start of another piece up there soon, for anyone whom maybe interested.

edit- Team 7 - Photo


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 20, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Have you uploaded the whole of your first two stories CTK?
> 
> I'll have the start of another piece up there soon, for anyone whom maybe interested.
> 
> edit- Team 7 - Photo



I just loaded the first story and half of the second...the third I haven't worked on.


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## Tyrael (Apr 21, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I just loaded the first story and half of the second...the third I haven't worked on.



They're only about novella size, I was surprised. But, I'll have a look through them at some point and give you my thoughts.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 21, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> They're only about novella size, I was surprised. But, I'll have a look through them at some point and give you my thoughts.



Yeah they're pretty short, I don't think that they're going to be too long until I start messing with the ones later in third person when the war is actually in full swing. I am getting ready to read your piece and upload the next part of my story about Dee and Madeleine, its going to be shorter than the other stories too, its really just a short story.


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## Banhammer (Apr 21, 2008)

Oh well, the secret for a sucessfull novel is to be able to bring forth the fanbase, so having a blog and or a website is always a good idea.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 21, 2008)

Alright Tyrael, I reviewed your story as promised and I posted my newest chapter for Heaven Forbid. I am going to start the third chapter now but I have a question for the other writers in this thread. Do you write your whole story in one file or separate files for each chapter.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 22, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I am going to start the third chapter now but I have a question for the other writers in this thread. Do you write your whole story in one file or separate files for each chapter?



In my case, I've written each part of my series in its own separate Word file, so when I started figuring out how to upload them there, I just created a file I called "TW-TEMPLATE" that I copy and paste my newest chapter to each time before I upload it. I don't even have to change the file name or anything to upload.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 22, 2008)

I  started with my whole story in one file then broke off into two separate documents for two separate routes.


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## Tyrael (Apr 22, 2008)

I tend to do them in different documents, then have one master one that |I paste all of mine into, and cheers for the feedback CTK.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 22, 2008)

You're welcome. I was having trouble last night staying online however and it made it hard for me to post here that I had done much else. So I went over and edited my chapter two some the other day. That was kind of fun I guess. But I wanted to say, I also went to the review thread and reviewed some other people's pieces. 

Oh and I write my chapters individually for the sake of this site now.


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## Batman (Apr 22, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> but I have a question for the other writers in this thread. Do you write your whole story in one file or separate files for each chapter.



I write the first draft in the same file. All extras are in separate file (musings, pointless chapters, future chapters, interesting descriptions I might use, character profiles). Then during the editing process I tend to start saving it under different file names as it improves till I have way too many copies of the same document.


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## Tyrael (Apr 22, 2008)

Batman said:


> I write the first draft in the same file. All extras are in separate file (musings, pointless chapters, future chapters, interesting descriptions I might use, character profiles). Then during the editing process I tend to start saving it under different file names as it improves* till I have way too many copies of the same *document.



This is my bane, especially since I work on two different computers. At some point I will need to get it all organised sometime.

Oh and can anyone else look through the completed first draft of this novel I've written? I'm at the stage where, more than anything, I just need overarching feedback.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 22, 2008)

Would someone like to take a look at chapter two of Heaven Forbid. Trying to get a feel for what to do with it at this point, I went through four rewrites before I even posted it.


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## Tyrael (Apr 22, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Would someone like to take a look at chapter two of Heaven Forbid. Trying to get a feel for what to do with it at this point, I went through four rewrites before I even posted it.



I'll take a look soon man, even though i find it slightly bemusing that you'd write a whole novelette for fictionpress especially.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 22, 2008)

It's not actually especially for fiction press, in fact it fits in perfectly with the events between stories three and four.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 22, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Would someone like to take a look at chapter two of Heaven Forbid. Trying to get a feel for what to do with it at this point, I went through four rewrites before I even posted it.



Whatever you did with the successive versions, it was worth the effort.


*Spoiler*: _to avoid spoiling it for anyone who hasn't read it yet_ 



This chapter has all the feel of a trap sprung on a group of heroes who allowed themselves to be distracted in the middle of a mission. If that was what you were aiming for, then you got it down.




Looking forward to chapter three.


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## Tyrael (Apr 22, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It's not actually especially for fiction press, in fact it fits in perfectly with the events between stories three and four.



lol, I was obv. misinterpreting somethin' you said earlier. It's quite cool how these wee side projects can evolve tho' eh?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 22, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Whatever you did with the successive versions, it was worth the effort.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _to avoid spoiling it for anyone who hasn't read it yet_
> ...



Thanks, I am actually working on chapter three right now. I hope to get a little draft done by the end of the day and be able to go over it in the morning tomorrow before work.

But that's what I was going for pretty much. 



Tyrael said:


> lol, I was obv. misinterpreting somethin' you said earlier. It's quite cool how these wee side projects can evolve tho' eh?



The other Madeleine and Dee story was a short for the site only, but the one I am posting now is going to be a story that will fit in between story three and four. While it won't be long, it will introduce a new character and flesh or Dee and Madeleine.


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## Tyrael (Apr 22, 2008)

Cheers for both your comments, I can see that a little bit more clarity is needed at the start:


*Spoiler*: __ 



The police officer was watching the other two men who were talking, the protagonist only gets one line in the first chapter. There is meant to be the odd juxtaposition of the scene, but if people aren't getting it I will have a look at changing it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 22, 2008)

You're welcome, and thanks for the comments everyone. I got a huge group of them at once on like three different stories.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 23, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You're welcome, and thanks for the comments everyone. I got a huge group of them at once on like three different stories.



I wouldn't be surprised if more turn up, since we've been getting more folks around here joining there. In my case, I intend to go through in my spare time, and read and review the rest of your stories, as well.



Tyrael said:


> Oh and can anyone else look through the completed first draft of this novel I've written? I'm at the stage where, more than anything, I just need overarching feedback.



Where is it? I probably can't look it over all it once, but I can read it in segments, and give you my final thoughts when I'm done.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 23, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if more turn up, since we've been getting more folks around here joining there. In my case, I intend to go through in my spare time, and read and review the rest of your stories, as well..



I finished my third chapter too, but thanks. Most of the old ones aren't all that great.


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## Tyrael (Apr 23, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Where is it? I probably can't look it over all it once, but I can read it in segments, and give you my final thoughts when I'm done.



I would only be sending it to you in segments, as I finish editing parts-it's really short (112 A4 pages, 75000 words) for a novel, but if it's a bit of a big ask that's cool. I'm just looking for all th opinions I can before I get stuck into a big stylistic editing session.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 23, 2008)

I might have some time to look over some of it. But I haven't read a fic that long in a while. That's roughly two of my stories! I don't know what happened to me but its hard for me to write longer stuff like I used to. I think it might be the first person and stuff.


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## Tyrael (Apr 23, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I might have some time to look over some of it. But I haven't read a fic that long in a while. That's roughly two of my stories! I don't know what happened to me but its hard for me to write longer stuff like I used to. I think it might be the first person and stuff.



As I said, it's kl if you don't want to but would be a great help to me.

And actually, (due to my sloppy pacing) it came it shorter than it was meant to. Also the thing about not being able to write as much is something I can associate with, it worries me when a story is too short. I'm sure I've ranted about pacing enough for people to have the general idea.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 23, 2008)

Yeah I had a lot of problems with pacing and I had to go back and correct a bunch of things and move them around to make them sound better. But I kind of like doing the big edits chapter by chapter so that I can some of those things out of the way as I compile it and make it seem less of a burden. I think also as I get along further the chapters get easier to edit, my third person legs are coming back. 

And I will take a look at some of it.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 23, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I would only be sending it to you in segments, as I finish editing parts-it's really short (112 A4 pages, 75000 words) for a novel, but if it's a bit of a big ask that's cool. I'm just looking for all th opinions I can before I get stuck into a big stylistic editing session.



No prob. Where do you prefer to send it? PM? E-mail? Whatever means you feel most comfortable with, I'll take a look at it.


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## Tyrael (Apr 23, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> No prob. Where do you prefer to send it? PM? E-mail? Whatever means you feel most comfortable with, I'll take a look at it.



I could send you it over msn, or email-if I'm gonna be honest the main reason I avoid posting it or using pms is 'cause of the formatting. And cheers, I greatly appreciate anyone who reads my work.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 25, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I could send you it over msn, or email-if I'm gonna be honest the main reason I avoid posting it or using pms is 'cause of the formatting. And cheers, I greatly appreciate anyone who reads my work.



I PM'd you my e-mail address, so feel free to send anything you want me to look over.


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## Tyrael (Apr 26, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> I PM'd you my e-mail address, so feel free to send anything you want me to look over.



Thanks alot man, as I'm sure I said, the editing is coming along a lot slower than I would like.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 26, 2008)

I wish I had the time to do all of the stuff with writing I am supposed to be doing. Instead my parents called complaining about how I never come to see them and when I get here they have all this work they want done. Maybe this is why I don't come, right.


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## Tyrael (Apr 26, 2008)

Hey, 'least you've got a decent excuse. I've really let up my writing recently partly due to laziness, but mainly due my oscillating sense of angst and general emotional cripple stuff.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 26, 2008)

I'm not really messed with when my life's going to crap, I can still write which I've proven as I continue to write through basically everything that can happen to a person. Oddly enough, when September 11th happened I stopped drawing for like six months. I was drawing a picture in class when it happened and I didn't draw again for the longest. But in its place my writing picked up speed.


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## Tyrael (Apr 26, 2008)

My life isn't going to crap, it's quite good actually: it's my mind that is going to crap. Still, I'll soldier on.

And six months? Must've really shaken you up (although I daresay it shook up the world).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 26, 2008)

I don't think I was shaken up. Its funny because that day in the early morning I remember coming to school and my friend Lauren being excited about talking to some guy. And she said, "Its going to be a good day." 

Well another girl, my friend Alaina said, "I don't know, I have a feeling something really horrible is going to happen." 

That entire thing rocked me to the core. And my writing from that point on was shaped by September 11th, at first the ramifications were really big. I made up a girl who was psychic for my old stories who had predicted September 11th, and she later joined the FBI. From that incarnation of the story, the current story was born. So you see, before that moment in time my stuff was all very whimsical and the characters were more archetypes than people. 

After that I stopped thinking the way fan fiction had taught me and starting thinking in *this *world when I wrote. Maybe it was my writing that too all my focus and made me stop drawing.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 28, 2008)

Just put up Tradewinds Part 2 on FP, and will be posting it here shortly.


*Spoiler*: _BTW (FP rant)_ 



Just how the hell _do you_ stay logged in for three whole days? I'm lucky if I can go _3 hours_ without being harassed about logging in. Since I re-installed this machine, over a month ago, I've had to restart several times, and even had my internet disrupted, yet I have only had to log in _once_ on NF in all those weeks. For a place dedicated to art, I've never seen a place that spends so much time questioning its clients' humanity and making every step you try to make take five...

And is this thing going keep insisting I agree to the TOS _every fucking time_ I post a new story, even though I _had to_ "agree" to it in order to post the _previous_ story? It's been _years_ since I've ever seen such a clunky, counter-intuitive, user-_un_friendly site...




Bear in mind, I'm putting up with all these obstacles for the sake of the readers. If it were a message board, it would be a _ghost town_ by now, and I most certainly wouldn't have stuck around to even finish Part 1.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 28, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Just put up Tradewinds Part 2 on FP, and will be posting it here shortly.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _BTW (FP rant)_
> ...



I have pretty good luck staying logged in as long as I don't log out. but I am not sure why the site is so odd about that.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 29, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I have pretty good luck staying logged in as long as I don't log out. but I am not sure why the site is so odd about that.



Yeah, sorry if I sounded so grouchy. It's just that, right from the get-go, from the counter-intuitive setup to waiting until I was finished registering to drop the 48-hour bomb, that site has managed to rub me the wrong way at every turn. To say nothing of the fact that I spent all day yesterday trouble-shooting: replacing the keyboard that kept dying on me, no matter which port I plugged it in, fixing the shower head, buying a fan since it's against building code to have a damn air conditioner in here... I didn't even get to look over Tyrael's "Citizen Alpha" stuff until this afternoon.

That having been said, maybe my next day off will be more productive creatively.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 29, 2008)

Yeah I have spent like no time with my story or anyone else's in the last few days because I have been monumentally tired and haven't had much time to sleep and the like. Work is causing all of this really, but I am going to have time tonight and tomorrow it seems.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 29, 2008)

I have spent more time reading then writing these days.


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## Kyon (Apr 29, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I have spent more time reading then writing these days.



_Same here. I am currently trying to hit my goal of 100 books by my next birthday. It appears I'm achieving this mostly through Jodi Picoult and Irvine Welsh.

I guess I've just accepted my inability to write, though if I were to start writing again and trying to become a novelist (again) I'm not sure how you would contact publishers and all that. Does anybody have any experience in that area?

I'd at least like a published novel to be on my resume when I become an English teacher._


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## neko-sennin (Apr 29, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I have spent more time reading than writing these days.



Not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes you just need to absorb more of life's experiences before you have more "to say" in your work. I'm increasingly certain that not being burdened by school and being able to let my instincts decided my reading material is one of the best things to ever happen to me as a writer. I wouldn't be surprised if, after this reading spree is done, you find yourself with more a sense of direction for where you want to go with your own work.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 29, 2008)

I think that school hurts our writing at least initially because of the way they try to force you into writing a certain way all of the time.


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## Kyon (Apr 29, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I think that school hurts our writing at least initially because of the way they try to force you into writing a certain way all of the time.



_As a budding English teacher I wish to defend school.

It really depends on who is teaching. Some teachers are very strict, and the point of the class is to expose you to as many different ways to express your ideas as possible, with the added benefit of being able to draw meaning from different texts.

Besides, if you truly a talented writer, you can conform to what they want you to, but still manage to make the assignment sound like it's *yours*.

I find it a refreshing challenge, actually. Distinguishing myself from the norm is a good way to test if I can effectively write._


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 29, 2008)

Kyon said:


> _As a budding English teacher I wish to defend school.
> 
> It really depends on who is teaching. Some teachers are very strict, and the point of the class is to expose you to as many different ways to express your ideas as possible, with the added benefit of being able to draw meaning from different texts.
> 
> ...



Not all of the time, some of the time they're rules get ridiculous. I had a teacher that didn't allow state of being verbs in papers. Some of their rules are nearly impossible to work around and I think that writers have to be less restricted when they are writing sometimes. Especially stories and when they ask you to write stories in class, they're always so strict.

I want to be a teacher for the reason of reconciling some of these things, but I wonder how much has to to do with the school itself? I've only had like two encouraging teachers and they were appreciated. But I find there are many who do the opposite.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 30, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Not all of the time, some of the time they're rules get ridiculous. I had a teacher that didn't allow state of being verbs in papers. Some of their rules are nearly impossible to work around and I think that writers have to be less restricted when they are writing sometimes. Especially stories and when they ask you to write stories in class, they're always so strict.



Both you and Kyon have good points. While some of these restrictions can be useful for experimental purposes, stretching the limits of your writing skills, there comes a point where you must take off the training weights and go all-out.

BTW, I've read the next couple chapters of Heaven Forbid-- seems you've been busy while I was merely doing busywork.  Review forthcoming soon.

And Tyrael, I finally got to sit down and read the Citizen Alpha chapters you sent me. Some time in the next couple days, I'll put together my critique and e-mail it back to you.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 30, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Both you and Kyon have good points. While some of these restrictions can be useful for experimental purposes, stretching the limits of your writing skills, there comes a point where you must take off the training weights and go all-out.
> 
> BTW, I've read the next couple chapters of Heaven Forbid-- seems you've been busy while I was merely doing busywork.  Review forthcoming soon.
> 
> And Tyrael, I finally got to sit down and read the Citizen Alpha chapters you sent me. Some time in the next couple days, I'll put together my critique and e-mail it back to you.



Thanks, Chapter six is coming along nicely. There are a few thing I need to fix with chapters 4 and 5, but I did most of that work today and I am kind of proud of myself. I might have another quick write on my hands and then I can get back to main storyline stuff. 

Tyrael is also writing a little something he showed me this afternoon, I rather liked it even though its not all that far along. I would check that out too if you have time.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 30, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Tyrael is also writing a little something he showed me this afternoon, I rather liked it even though its not all that far along. I would check that out too if you have time.



For that one, you'll need to ask Tyrael himself. He e-mailed me the first 3 chapters of Citizen Alpha, and I'm giving him a critique on them, and I tend to take confidences fairly seriously. But given that I believe he's still looking for outside opinions on it, I wouldn't be surprised if he sent you a copy if you asked. It's some pretty interesting stuff.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 30, 2008)

He sent me that too, but he sent this other shorter thing that I looked at. Well I spent practically all of yesterday writing and working on all of my stuff. I still need to go back and edit slightly but I think for the most part things are staying the way they are.


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## Tyrael (Apr 30, 2008)

People talking fondly of my work? What parallel universe have I stumbled upon? 

Seriously though, what CTK is talkin' about is a fantasy thing I started spontaneously writing the other day and, stylistically, is perhaps the peak of what I've done so far. Should you wish to have a quick skim through it (it's only about 2 pages) I'd be happy to send you that as well.

Cheers for havin' a look through the first part of CA, I'll step my editing attempts up again.


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## ViolentlyHappy (Apr 30, 2008)

I'm so glad the I found the thread! 

After some time, I finally realized that I wanted to (eventually) write a book once I get older, but there's a problem.

I'm completely lost onto where to start.

I know that you want to figure out what genres you want your story to be about, and then you have to create you own characters and all that, but then where do you go from there?

Help-o? Por favor?


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## Tyrael (Apr 30, 2008)

ViolentlyHappy said:


> I'm so glad the I found the thread!
> 
> After some time, I finally realized that I wanted to (eventually) write a book once I get older, but there's a problem.
> 
> ...



I was recently asked a similar question and this is what I, personally, think:



> To start a story there are two ways as I see it: introducing main themes or straight into the setting or action.
> 
> If you have strong themes that you are writing about many authors like to start in an almost philosophical fashion. Prompting readers to think on the themes, if channeled correctly, can be very effective.
> 
> ...



Openings are very genre specific, what you thinking about?


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## neko-sennin (Apr 30, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well I spent practically all of yesterday writing and working on all of my stuff. I still need to go back and edit slightly but I think for the most part things are staying the way they are.



Probably for the best. We haven't seen Chapter 6 yet, of course, but 4 and 5 had good pacing and atmosphere, so you're probably on the right track as long as you don't lose your stride.



Tyrael said:


> Seriously though, what CTK is talkin' about is a fantasy thing I started spontaneously writing the other day and, stylistically, is perhaps the peak of what I've done so far. Should you wish to have a quick skim through it (it's only about 2 pages) I'd be happy to send you that as well.



Sure. Feel free.


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## ViolentlyHappy (Apr 30, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I was recently asked a similar question and this is what I, personally, think:
> 
> 
> > To start a story there are two ways as I see it: introducing main themes or straight into the setting or action.
> ...



That's very good advice. Along the lines of genre, I was thinking reality with a mixture of fantasy.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 1, 2008)

I think the pacing is keeping like this because of the fact I am writing it all together and not hopping back into other things. This really is a test to see if I can still write third person. I need to start reading more third person to tell the truth. But I think that in my stories this is the end of first person for at least a while. And people's reception of Dee and Madeleine is quite nice (I bet Auraya didn't know a character based on here would be so popular).


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## Tyrael (May 1, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Probably for the best. We haven't seen Chapter 6 yet, of course, but 4 and 5 had good pacing and atmosphere, so you're probably on the right track as long as you don't lose your stride.
> 
> Sure. Feel free.



I think the pacing is slightly off, could use being slowed slightly more, but otherwise I agree. And I'll send my think to you if I can't have the next part of CA edited by the time you've given me feedback.



ViolentlyHappy said:


> That's very good advice. Along the lines of genre, I was thinking reality with a mixture of fantasy.



Reality isn't a genre, but I get what you mean (it's an urban fantasy type thing yeah?) Basically the advice is very, very general, so if you want I can be more channeled, or if you feel you've got sufficient to work with dive right in.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I think the pacing is keeping like this because of the fact I am writing it all together and not hopping back into other things. This really is a test to see if I can still write third person. I need to start reading more third person to tell the truth. But I think that in my stories this is the end of first person for at least a while. And people's reception of Dee and Madeleine is quite nice (I bet Auraya didn't know a character based on here would be so popular).



There is a great flow to it all, and I think your 1st and 3rd are very similar-both are developed and balanced. Not indulgent or overly elaborative.


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## Lord Yu (May 2, 2008)

Since I got tired of having all these ideas yet being unable to dump them onto paper; I finally started an outline.


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## Tyrael (May 3, 2008)

Outlines are good because they provide a springboard and without one writing a full novel isn't really feasible, unless your stephen king. And even then...


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## Aishiteru (May 4, 2008)

Hello~

*points to self*

Aspiring novelist here. 

Now I'm a bit intimdated 'cause my spelling and grammar has to be perfect when I'm posting this thread. DX




Tyrael said:


> *Reality isn't a genre*, but I get what you mean (it's an urban fantasy type thing yeah?) Basically the advice is very, very general, so if you want I can be more channeled, or if you feel you've got sufficient to work with dive right in.



Then what is that type of story called? Let's say, for an example, a simple fictional story about a teenage girl and the things she goes through in life.



*ViolentlyHappy*!! 



I want to write something like what you've said, too. I don't enjoy reading fantasy... I don't know. I just can't, but I really like watching the movie counterpart. To compensate, a story like Twilight is the story for me. High school students and a magical necklace or something? You know. Something like that.


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## Tyrael (May 4, 2008)

Genres are a funny thing, I only half accept them in the first place, but since they are so prevalent in the human psyche they are important. Although they don't actually mater. Or something along those lines.

Reality doesn't tell you anything; it strikes me as more likely to be applied to a non-fiction book. Genre is not only determined by context, you have to consider style and themes. Heck, most of what determines the book's genre is often marketing and what the author is known for.

As for your example, it really is too loose to be directly categorised. It could be drama, romance, comedy or even just straight fiction (although I have issue with that genre as well) amongst others.

And when you say you don't enjoy fantasy are we talking about Tolkein type stuff? Although I don't know very much about it I always thought Twilight was a fantasy.


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## Aishiteru (May 4, 2008)

^

Twilight happens in good old Forks in the US. Normal people going about their lives, it's just...there's a family of really gorgeous vampires living there.




The type of books I don't like reading is something like Harry Potter. Anything directly relating to magic, sorcery, unicorns and fairies. You know?


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## Lord Yu (May 4, 2008)

Try A Song of Ice and Fire, fantasy with minimal magic and engaging plot, characters and world.


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## Tyrael (May 4, 2008)

Aishiteru said:


> ^
> 
> Twilight happens in good old Forks in the US. Normal people going about their lives, it's just...there's a family of really gorgeous vampires living there.
> 
> ...



Ah, so deconstruction of our reality? An author who is at least worth giving a try is Terry Pratchett, while he is rather fantastical, it does come across as breaking the trend-while giving his readers a good chuckle. Also, Charles de Lint is apparently a fantasy author "for people who don't like fantasy". I've still not to get a hold of any of his books though so I can't comment too heavily on whether or not his books are good.


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## Einstein (May 4, 2008)

Thanks for the reviews in the tenth (if I'm Roman numerically correct) flashfic thread, Tyrael and Batman. Since I'm pretty sure my piece won't be picked, I may as well spill the beans on what I planned for the story.

I actually wrote that about a year and a half to two years ago (I didn't think you had to have made something just for the flashfic, if so, well.. it's too late anyway). If you look at that and you look at my Weatherman story, I'm pretty sure you'll agree with me when I say I've drastically improved.

The plot of the story was that a creepy dude was to visit a school on career day. It's later revealed that he does this all the time, at diff. school and the like. After he visits, the kids whose parents don't show up end up getting kidnapped. He always has little figurines of them. All of the children on the clay pots are the kids previously kidnapped, screaming for mercy or whatever. The figures depict how the kids die. Wasn't Harvey sleeping? He's shot in his sleep. So anyways, Harvey is missing and cops look and stuff and a bunch of bla bla and by the time they find the dude Harvey is dead. Moral of the story - you should always attend your child's school events. I quit writing the story b/c of my lack of knowledge of the justice system (DA's, specific laws, ranks, etc.)

It was jsut another one of my failed attempts.


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## Tyrael (May 4, 2008)

Einstein said:


> Thanks for the reviews in the tenth (if I'm Roman numerically correct) flashfic thread, Tyrael and Batman. Since I'm pretty sure my piece won't be picked, I may as well spill the beans on what I planned for the story.
> 
> I actually wrote that about a year and a half to two years ago (I didn't think you had to have made something just for the flashfic, if so, well.. it's too late anyway). If you look at that and you look at my Weatherman story, I'm pretty sure you'll agree with me when I say I've drastically improved.
> 
> ...



No piece of writing, in my books( sorry, couldn't resist), is a failure that wee piece could do with a little bit of touching up but it was good. The main problem is that because the foreshadowing pertained to things that we had no way of guessing it kinda left us high and dry. I, for one, only gave you that rating 'cause I couldn't see where it was going to go and we're not allowed to specify what you want to see in the future. Using pre-written pieces is not against the rules to the best of my knowledge.

Even if you scrapped it, I'm sure that piece of writing was better than ones preceding it; therefore it wasn't a failure. Tbh I'm still not half the writer you are.


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## Einstein (May 4, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> No piece of writing, in my books( sorry, couldn't resist), is a failure that wee piece could do with a little bit of touching up but it was good. The main problem is that because the foreshadowing pertained to things that we had no way of guessing it kinda left us high and dry. I, for one, only gave you that rating 'cause I couldn't see where it was going to go and we're not allowed to specify what you want to see in the future. Using pre-written pieces is not against the rules to the best of my knowledge.
> 
> Even if you scrapped it, I'm sure that piece of writing was better than ones preceding it; therefore it wasn't a failure. Tbh I'm still not half the writer you are.


You're right about it being better than the one proceeding it lol. The best thing about failed attempts at writing (and maybe the only good thing) is that it's great practice and you'll get better next time. 

And I'd be willing to bet you're a much better writer than I am. I haven't read any of your work (not that I remember, anyways). Do you have any links, or anything you can paste here?


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## Tyrael (May 4, 2008)

Einstein said:


> You're right about it being better than the one proceeding it lol. The best thing about failed attempts at writing (and maybe the only good thing) is that it's great practice and you'll get better next time.
> 
> And I'd be willing to bet you're a much better writer than I am. I haven't read any of your work (not that I remember, anyways). Do you have any links, or anything you can paste here?



Practice; pragmatically if you want to have your prose at a high standard years of cultivation are required. If it is getting better then it's all good.

My most recent work.

There's other stuff-of varying quality-in the links in my sig. I don't really rate myself highly though, pretty much all of the people I've come across doin' the FFs are, at the very least, better. Damned if that's gonna stop me though.


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## Aishiteru (May 4, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Ah, so deconstruction of our reality? An author who is at least worth giving a try is Terry Pratchett, while he is rather fantastical, it does come across as breaking the trend-while giving his readers a good chuckle. Also, Charles de Lint is apparently a fantasy author "for people who don't like fantasy". I've still not to get a hold of any of his books though so I can't comment too heavily on whether or not his books are good.



Hm... I'll have to try and check him out, then. Thanks for the recommendation.



Just one question: Is there romance? I sort of need romance in the plot. >_<




Lord Yu said:


> Try A Song of Ice and Fire, fantasy with minimal magic and engaging plot, characters and world.



Thanks. I'll check it out.


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## Einstein (May 4, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Practice; pragmatically if you want to have your prose at a high standard years of cultivation are required. If it is getting better then it's all good.
> 
> My most recent work.
> 
> There's other stuff-of varying quality-in the links in my sig. I don't really rate myself highly though, pretty much all of the people I've come across doin' the FFs are, at the very least, better. Damned if that's gonna stop me though.


I'm one of the not-so-highly rated people in the flashfics as well, but just like you, I won't stop because of it. If anything, it makes me want to get better.

LOL, I feel a bit thick for not even looking at your sig. But, a finished novel?  I admire you. I can't finish a novel to save my life. And there are so many of you in here who've finished novels - I feel like a black sheep.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 4, 2008)

I worked so hard on this story last week, I think as of right now I can have it all done with and wrapped up by this time next week. So I hope that nothing gets in the way of me doing that. I'm working with Chapter Seven now.


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## Tyrael (May 4, 2008)

Aishiteru said:


> Hm... I'll have to try and check him out, then. Thanks for the recommendation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Some of Pratchett's novels have romance in them, can't really talk about de Lint's.



Einstein said:


> I'm one of the not-so-highly rated people in the flashfics as well, but just like you, I won't stop because of it. If anything, it makes me want to get better.
> 
> LOL, I feel a bit thick for not even looking at your sig. But, a finished novel?  I admire you. I can't finish a novel to save my life. And there are so many of you in here who've finished novels - I feel like a black sheep.



It was short and, in retrospect, badly written. Still, it is a bit of an achievement (not to mention damn hard work). Any feedback you can give on any of my things is heavily appreciated. We all feel like the underdogs, don't let it get you down.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I worked so hard on this story last week, I think as of right now I can have it all done with and wrapped up by this time next week. So I hope that nothing gets in the way of me doing that. I'm working with Chapter Seven now.



Jus' don't let go of this impetus and you're all set.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 4, 2008)

I'm trying to keep it going, more than anything I need to remember not to come home and not write and just sit and think. Because some of the time I spend all of my time sitting here thinking and I do better writing and coming back to edit later. 

Its odd because when I do that, the story seems to need heavy editing at the start, but as I move towards the middle it just gets better.


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## Einstein (May 4, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Any feedback you can give on any of my things is heavily appreciated. We all feel like the underdogs, don't let it get you down.


Surely. I'll probably write them all out and them PM them for you, so yo don't have all 5 of your threads on the front page on the LD. Unless you want that..


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## Tyrael (May 5, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I'm trying to keep it going, more than anything I need to remember not to come home and not write and just sit and think. Because some of the time I spend all of my time sitting here thinking and I do better writing and coming back to edit later.
> 
> Its odd because when I do that, the story seems to need heavy editing at the start, but as I move towards the middle it just gets better.



Definitely, blind writing is bad. It's good to know where you're going and how you'll get there.



Einstein said:


> Surely. I'll probably write them all out and them PM them for you, so yo don't have all 5 of your threads on the front page on the LD. Unless you want that..



I wouldn't mind, lol, nothing wrong with a sledgehammer approach. And tbh don't feel you need to read them all, just any that you have the time for/interest you.


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## Batman (May 5, 2008)

Einstein said:


> Thanks for the reviews in the tenth (if I'm Roman numerically correct) flashfic thread, Tyrael and Batman. Since I'm pretty sure my piece won't be picked, I may as well spill the beans on what I planned for the story.
> 
> I actually wrote that about a year and a half to two years ago (I didn't think you had to have made something just for the flashfic, if so, well.. it's too late anyway). If you look at that and you look at my Weatherman story, I'm pretty sure you'll agree with me when I say I've drastically improved.
> 
> ...



Ooooh. That's is creepy, but not as creepy as those teachers that let the man bring 'art' that looks like screaming kids in pots. lol. But yeah, your style has improved since then. 





			
				Tyrael said:
			
		

> Definitely, blind writing is bad. It's good to know where you're going and how you'll get there.


 I dunno. I like to know where I'm going sure, but not knowing how I'm going to get there is almost half the fun, 2 me. But it depends on my mood. Sometimes I need to take a walk and make a plan, and sometimes I can just sit down it feels like the characters already have a plan.

I wrote a great scene yesterday, where the characters were in such a horrible corner (ironically something I had planned out)that I had no idea how to get them out, then one of the characters fixed the problem, displaying hidden talents that I didn't know they had. It was quite cool.




Also I think I want to strangle my friend who's helping me amateur edit my other work. I want to be like "You're doing it wrong!" lol sigh hopefully these arguments will lead to something better, I know it's making me try hard to improve the work when I incorporate her suggestions. But I'll be damned if I didn't throw three sheets of the draft across the room in frustration one night. But I know I need what she's doing. 50% of it is great stuff, I just have to bear through that other 50% that's so ridiculous it's almost insulting.


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## Tyrael (May 5, 2008)

Batman said:


> I dunno. I like to know where I'm going sure, but not knowing how I'm going to get there is almost half the fun, 2 me. But it depends on my mood. Sometimes I need to take a walk and make a plan, and sometimes I can just sit down it feels like the characters already have a plan.
> 
> I wrote a great scene yesterday, where the characters were in such a horrible corner (ironically something I had planned out)that I had no idea how to get them out, then one of the characters fixed the problem, displaying hidden talents that I didn't know they had. It was quite cool.
> 
> Also I think I want to strangle my friend who's helping me amateur edit my other work. I want to be like "You're doing it wrong!" lol sigh hopefully these arguments will lead to something better, I know it's making me try hard to improve the work when I incorporate her suggestions. But I'll be damned if I didn't throw three sheets of the draft across the room in frustration one night. But I know I need what she's doing. 50% of it is great stuff, I just have to bear through that other 50% that's so ridiculous it's almost insulting.



Not knowing how you are going to get there, in my experience, generates pacing problems, writer's block and plot dead ends. Sure, it is kinda fun to just ramble through stories sometimes and overplanning is worse than underplanning, but I need to have a vague outline of event progressions before it takes reasonable shape.

Sometimes the stuff that is the hardest to hear is the best kind of feedback. A full scale edit is a big thing to do, but if you are disagreeing on so many points you should bring a few more people into the process.


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## Batman (May 5, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Not knowing how you are going to get there, in my experience, generates pacing problems, writer's block and plot dead ends. Sure, it is kinda fun to just ramble through stories sometimes and overplanning is worse than underplanning, but I need to have a vague outline of event progressions before it takes reasonable shape.


I tend to write best when I know the starting point and the finishing point (main points in a chapters) but if I detail it too much I get bored and the story suffers b/c of it. But that's just me. If it feels too random I can always throw a bit more backbone in it later.



> Sometimes the stuff that is the hardest to hear is the best kind of feedback. A full scale edit is a big thing to do, but if you are disagreeing on so many points you should bring a few more people into the process.



The problem is that she's a writer as well, so I have to keep telling her to edit it, not to re-write it. lol But she's real good at picking up on a lot of the technical problems, and on the sentences that are 'overwritten' so i'll put up with it until we make it to the end. Then I've got to get some people to do some hard edits and answer questions like: Where is it slow? Where did your eyes glaze over? Were the characters believable? Did you want more, less, etc. etc.


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## Tyrael (May 5, 2008)

Batman said:


> I tend to write best when I know the starting point and the finishing point (main points in a chapters) but if I detail it too much I get bored and the story suffers b/c of it. But that's just me. If it feels too random I can always throw a bit more backbone in it later.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that she's a writer as well, so I have to keep telling her to edit it, not to re-write it. lol But she's real good at picking up on a lot of the technical problems, and on the sentences that are 'overwritten' so i'll put up with it until we make it to the end. Then I've got to get some people to do some hard edits and answer questions like: Where is it slow? Where did your eyes glaze over? Were the characters believable? Did you want more, less, etc. etc.



Honestly, I'm more or less the same-I tend to write with only a beginning, end, and sparse smattering of events that I wanna get through. Overly detailed plans do make the writing progress marshy. It's what I blame for my pacing problems.

And it's good that your getting a big scale edit in, I'm trying to do a shallow edit of CA atm.


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## neko-sennin (May 6, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Honestly, I'm more or less the same-I tend to write with only a beginning, end, and sparse smattering of events that I wanna get through. Overly detailed plans do make the writing progress marshy. It's what I blame for my pacing problems.



I tend to take a similar approach anymore, except I often have only the most vague idea of an ending, and tend to let my characters find their own way to it. Then again, a long time ago, I took the "tyrannical director" approach, being the driving force behind every character's actions, and what it ended up as was something akin to watching someone else play a video game. In other words, not very interesting. I try not to rely on outlines, though I did use them rewriting previous drafts in order to untangle some huge plot messes and put them in some kind of perspective, it even helped me prune some unnecessary subplots that weren't going anywhere and just cluttering things up. Often, for me, the parts most likely to slow down my work, and often trip up the pacing of the piece itself are the "non-action" scenes, as "just hanging out" scenes were never my specialty, though critical to story and character, and I mostly draw on conversations hanging out with my own friends as inspiration.

I used to find the less climactic and/or adventurous parts so intimidating back in the day, it was probably the principle cause of "skipping to the good stuff" and "meaning to go back later" that resulted in whole stories being written out of sequence and missing important pieces. It was one of the most monumental tasks involved in rewriting Tradewinds.



Tyrael said:


> I'm trying to do a shallow edit of CA atm.



About that. I think I finally figured out what my problem is. About a week ago, I bought a new, more powerful fan for this room, as it can easily get over 100 in here during the summer, and while it has certainly made this room more hospitable, it has a weird side-effect: all this warm air blowing around is drying my eyes. This registers in the back of my mind as drowsiness, and as a result, I've taken a lot of cat-naps lately, sleep in later, and generally feel groggy and out of focus at the keyboard. I'm fresh right now, because I just got back home and haven't been in here for long. This keeps happening, not only when I try to do your CA stuff, but as an experiment, I tried working on my own and got the same result. I'm almost finished with the critique, and since I have tomorrow off, I'll try stepping out for a while before doing the rest, so I'll be more awake when I return. I sure hope I can adjust to this, because without it, the heat would be unbearable, I did that all last summer, and lately I've been transcribing passages that I don't even _remember_ writing, even though it's all in my handwriting, and actually turned out pretty decent for something written while sleepwalking...


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## ViolentlyHappy (May 6, 2008)

Aishiteru said:
			
		

> Hm... I'll have to try and check him out, then. Thanks for the recommendation.
> 
> 
> 
> Just one question: Is there romance? I sort of need romance in the plot. >_<



What kind of story are you working towards exactly? Because so far everything you've commented on/about seems like the same kind of story that I want to create.


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## Tyrael (May 6, 2008)

Sounds like  to me.

And neko, as I've said before, take as long as you want with it. Hope you get that problem fixed, heat is a pet peeve of mine.


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## ViolentlyHappy (May 6, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Sounds like  to me.



 That is exactly what I mean!


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## Tyrael (May 7, 2008)

ViolentlyHappy said:


> That is exactly what I mean!



Happy I can be of help, hopefully it should help you narrow down how you want to go about your story. Urban fantasy is a great sub-genre 'cause it doesn't carry all of the negative connotations that epic fantasy does.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 7, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Happy I can be of help, hopefully it should help you narrow down how you want to go about your story. Urban fantasy is a great sub-genre 'cause it doesn't carry all of the negative connotations that epic fantasy does.



That might be why I started writing it. That and I wanted to see more stories set in a modern world that address the fantastical. It isn't often enough that you get all these different creature types put into one story and in such a manner as I have done here.

*Edit:* Its funny how without even meaning to you can start to look crazy. I usually carry around this little notebook where I write all of my ideas and character things, I have all the old ones still and its getting pretty filled up right? Well the other night I went to do laundry and I didn't have it. And this woman there reminded me of something and a way that I wanted to describe someone. So I had some napkins in my car and I wrote on them. 

People must have thought I was wacko, I took up two and a half napkins and when I got home I had to transcribe it back into the story.


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## ViolentlyHappy (May 7, 2008)

Tyrael said:
			
		

> Happy I can be of help, hopefully it should help you narrow down how you want to go about your story. Urban fantasy is a great sub-genre 'cause it doesn't carry all of the negative connotations that epic fantasy does.



Great now that I got this, all I have to do is create my characters.


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## Pan-on (May 7, 2008)

its been a while since i was here, its been a while since i was able to get anything written but this is something i wrote recently as an excercise to get myself to finish something, i know its short but i wasn't going for an epic adventure. tell me what you think.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Finding the forest in the trees

Dylan knew they were close; he didn't have to be able to see them to tell. They were doing their best to stay quiet but he could hear them shuffling about in the fallen leaves that littered the forest floor. His pursuers had him five to one but he had lived in the area since he was six years old and knew each tree and rock as intimately as he knew his own home. It had been half and hour already; they were not giving up and they were getting closer. He shifted to look around the huge tree keeping him hidden; he could see one of them looking behind a tree a few meters away but was more worried about the people he couldn't see. Slipping back behind the safety of the huge tree he thought about his situation for a moment; sooner or later someone was going to find him if he stayed where he was but moving was risky too. The rustling was getting louder; he had to move soon, make a break for it. Slowly he stood up, picking up a rock as he did, and got ready to run. He checked again to see if anyone was watching then threw the rock as far as he could into the forest. The sound of the rock hitting the ground was quickly followed by the sound of running towards it, they had fallen for it. As soon as the sound of running subsided Dylan sprinted in the opposite direction taking care to stay behind trees as much as he could in case some of them were still nearby. He knew exactly where he was going; if he could get to the edge of the forest he would be able to see if any of them lay beyond and then when it became safe escape and leave them to search  fruitlessly among the trees.  The sound he made while he was running seemed so loud he kept expecting someone to jump out from behind a tree at any moment but he encountered nobody until he stopped to take a breather in the shadow of another massive tree. He had not been noticed because his pursuer was busy attempting to climb a tree not far from where Dylan was resting, presumably to attain a better view of the surroundings. However he was not having much luck so Dylan used this opportunity sneak past and once out of earshot resumed his running. Dylan was panting when he finally reached the edge of the forest and looked out beyond the trees which shielded him from view. There was nobody there. He stepped out and someone grabbed his arm. Dylan turned to the boy who had been in front of the tree he had been hiding behind and cursed. Now he was it. He hated being it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 8, 2008)

As of today I posted two chapters of my story, eight and nine. I am starting to think this story might end up running longer than I meant it to. I was meaning to be done by around chapter ten or so and I can see that if I finish this there it won't be a good ending. I need to make this end with a bang and actually make all of this worthwhile for the reader. 

I have done this story in basically three weeks as of now and I am kind of proud that I can write that fast still.


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## Tyrael (May 8, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> That might be why I started writing it. That and I wanted to see more stories set in a modern world that address the fantastical. It isn't often enough that you get all these different creature types put into one story and in such a manner as I have done here.
> 
> *Edit:* Its funny how without even meaning to you can start to look crazy. I usually carry around this little notebook where I write all of my ideas and character things, I have all the old ones still and its getting pretty filled up right? Well the other night I went to do laundry and I didn't have it. And this woman there reminded me of something and a way that I wanted to describe someone. So I had some napkins in my car and I wrote on them.
> 
> People must have thought I was wacko, I took up two and a half napkins and when I got home I had to transcribe it back into the story.



Congrats with your finishing of th chptr, and don't complain when it turns out longer-things are as long as they need to be.

But yeah, I need to do very little until people think I'm crazy. And I think there are a lot of stories with vampires, demons, etc. in modern context, jus' very rarely any good.



Anonx said:


> its been a while since i was here, its been a while since i was able to get anything written but this is something i wrote recently as an excercise to get myself to finish something, i know its short but i wasn't going for an epic adventure. tell me what you think.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



That was an alright short, liked the twist at the end but overall you do with spacing it out over a few paragraphs and looking at the syntax in there. I've never seen so many semi-colons so close together. Especially when it cuts to the action, you really need to stop it from being a big bulky block of text.


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## Pan-on (May 9, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Congrats with your finishing of th chptr, and don't complain when it turns out longer-things are as long as they need to be.
> 
> But yeah, I need to do very little until people think I'm crazy. And I think there are a lot of stories with vampires, demons, etc. in modern context, jus' very rarely any good.
> 
> ...



thanks, yeh i know there are problems with the syntax I was more interested in getting it finished at the time and I wasn't paying attention to it. I will think about putting paragraphs in though.


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## Batman (May 9, 2008)

Here's a random question, what's a good substitute for *Slowly*?
Whats another way to describe a slow action without using the adverb or a cheesy metaphor?


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## Tyrael (May 9, 2008)

Batman said:


> Here's a random question, what's a good substitute for *Slowly*?
> Whats another way to describe a slow action without using the adverb or a cheesy metaphor?



Sloth, crawl, lazily, slow gait, gradual...

What's the context?


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## Lord Yu (May 9, 2008)

Lethargic, thick, prolonged.


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## Batman (May 9, 2008)

For example "His punch came across slowly, but it still hurt." How could I describe that without reverting to another adverb?




I fin myself wanting to describe a gradual motion sometimes, but I'm having a hard time describing it without saying gradually, slowly, or something that sounds equally as lame.


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## Lord Yu (May 9, 2008)

I like lethargic.


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## Tyrael (May 9, 2008)

His punch had come crawling towards me, but the impact would ache for days regardless.

I like lethargic too though.


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## Batman (May 9, 2008)

Hmm  I see.  . . His punch was lethargic, but it hurt just the same . . . could work.  

thx


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## Tyrael (May 10, 2008)

You'll have to remember though that lethargic connotes laziness-only use it in conjunction with that.


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## Lord Yu (May 10, 2008)

I thought it also connoted tiredness.


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## Tyrael (May 10, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I thought it also connoted tiredness.



It does of sorts, lethargic is very similar to sluggish and-as with any good adjective-comes with a plethora of connotations.


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## Lord Yu (May 11, 2008)

Anything new? I'm stuck on my outline but unstuck on my story.


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## Tyrael (May 11, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Anything new? I'm stuck on my outline but unstuck on my story.



I've got a complete creative blankout, I have the plot stweing for what might turn out to be something far beyond nything I expected myself to be able to come up with, but it's not flowing.

And if you're having trouble writing the outline then it's best you work on bits of the story you do know 'til inspiration comes.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 12, 2008)

With the exception of the Epilogue, the Madeleine and Dee story is done. It ended pretty rough there and I am hoping I did well enough with it.


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## Tyrael (May 13, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> With the exception of the Epilogue, the Madeleine and Dee story is done. It ended pretty rough there and I am hoping I did well enough with it.



Really? The first four chptrs looked like it had only just got started, though I suppose it's only around novella length.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 13, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Really? The first four chptrs looked like it had only just got started, though I suppose it's only around novella length.



The story ended at Chapter Twelve. So its come a little ways. 20,448 words.


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## Lord Yu (May 13, 2008)

I just realized, I should probably research flowers for my story.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 14, 2008)

Had a little bit of some questions earlier by a friend of mine and she asked me basically what I thought about the idea of a film adaption of my books. I have to admit this is a thought that has never been that far from my mind since I think I can remember. But my question to you here is, would you given the option do a film adaption of your book?


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## Batman (May 14, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I just realized, I should probably research flowers for my story.



I hit that point a last year. It was a lot more fun than I thought it would be.

Then I got distracted and started reading about celtic lore. 




> Had a little bit of some questions earlier by a friend of mine and she asked me basically what I thought about the idea of a film adaption of my books. I have to admit this is a thought that has never been that far from my mind since I think I can remember. But my question to you here is, would you given the option do a film adaption of your book?



If the right contract came around, sure why not. It'll only make people want to read the book, even if it's to see if it was as bad as the movie. And I could always use more money in my pocket. 

If they let me write the script (like the guy from holes) then I could say "at least the script was good" to me.


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## Lord Yu (May 14, 2008)

I have a country in my story that has alot of floral symbolism.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 14, 2008)

Batman said:


> I hit that point a last year. It was a lot more fun than I thought it would be.
> 
> Then I got distracted and started reading about celtic lore.
> 
> ...



The guy from holes got to do that? Sounds like a pretty good idea, even though I don't know shit about writing a script. Of course I would have to have some sort of creative control.


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## Lord Yu (May 14, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Had a little bit of some questions earlier by a friend of mine and she asked me basically what I thought about the idea of a film adaption of my books. I have to admit this is a thought that has never been that far from my mind since I think I can remember. But my question to you here is, would you given the option do a film adaption of your book?



Film? Hell no.
Video game? Just as planned.
I began this story as a video game idea. I'm not a fan of Hollywood adaptation.


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## neko-sennin (May 14, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Had a little bit of some questions earlier by a friend of mine and she asked me basically what I thought about the idea of a film adaption of my books. I have to admit this is a thought that has never been that far from my mind since I think I can remember. But my question to you here is, would you given the option do a film adaption of your book?



Film? Seems unlikely, since Tradewinds looks like it's shaping up to be about a 5-7 volume series, and is very episodic in nature, and that sort of thing doesn't lend itself well to film, nor does its overall length bode well for a miniseries. Not that these thoughts were ever far from my mind when I was younger or anything. 

An anime, on the other hand (and by "anime" I do mean Japanese art and directing, even though it would presumably also be dubbed in English), might do it more justice, and be less hobbled by focus groups, censorship, and anything else American TV/film can come up with to rob a story of its substance Stateside.

I'm honestly very wary of film/TV adaptations, and would probably keep a tight lid on such rights unless someone can present me with a script and an overall production plan that would do some justice to my original work.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 14, 2008)

If it were a television adaptation I would probably recommend they do the small adventures of some of the more minor and side characters. I have a big universe to work with. Although I have often imagined my story as a television show with actors and all of that stuff. When I write a scene, I imagine it in my head as if it were movie or show and i have to place the actors where they need to be and describe the action as best I can. 

My story is pretty episodic too actually, but the episodes would be short in a film format because there's a little stuff that doesn't take long in film. Also some of them could fit two to a movie.


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## Tyrael (May 14, 2008)

I doubt they would do side adventures of supporting characters unless your books become exceptionally popular-most people will view it having not read the books more likely than not.

To be honest the moment I produce something even remotely good enough to become popular I would entertain the idea, but at the moment I would just be being indulgent.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 14, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I doubt they would do side adventures of supporting characters unless your books become exceptionally popular-most people will view it having not read the books more likely than not.
> 
> To be honest the moment I produce something even remotely good enough to become popular I would entertain the idea, but at the moment I would just be being indulgent.



What I mean by side characters is something like a show focused on Madeleine and Dee and let them basically just follow a different storyline. That way it doesn't spoil the books or anything, but you get the same personalities you had from the books acted out.


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## Lord Yu (May 14, 2008)

I always see my story as anime. But more times a game because that's where it started. Though I think it would lend itself to animu more than vidya gaems now because the deeper focus on character and less on ZOMG COOL POWERS!


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## Tyrael (May 14, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I always see my story as anime. But more times a game because that's where it started. Though I think it would lend itself to animu more than vidya gaems now because the deeper focus on character and less on ZOMG COOL POWERS!



Ironic as it may seem, I tend to think of my book as a story. The idea of a story transcends all medias for me so, heh, it's not as simple as scenes playin' out in my head. Rather I just do my best to tell them.


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## Lord Yu (May 15, 2008)

I've noticed something about my writing. It seems when I started out in 1st person style started out deeply psychological and leaning toward a horror style. When I picked up 3rd it slowly moved to fantasy style.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 15, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Ironic as it may seem, I tend to think of my book as a story. The idea of a story transcends all medias for me so, heh, it's not as simple as scenes playin' out in my head. Rather I just do my best to tell them.



Don't get me wrong, I think of it as a story. But when I need to describe things, I imagine myself watching a movie and seeing all the details and moving things to where I can see certain things better.


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## Lord Yu (May 15, 2008)

When describing things, I describe them as if I were dreaming it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 15, 2008)

When I describe things I don't know if I can picture it like a dream. It's more like I am watching a show and writing a story about it. Or watching a play or someone cat it out and writing it down. Then there are those times when I use first person and I have to actually imagine myself as the character.


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## Batman (May 15, 2008)

You know I've never really thought about that. . . I just kinda call it like I see it. Tell it like I think it.


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## Tyrael (May 15, 2008)

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with seeing the action happen in your head before it happens, it's probably good practice, I'm jus' pretty sure the form a story takes occurs on the page even if I already have detailed knowledge of what is going to happen.

Oh, and congratulations Batman.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 15, 2008)

Normally before I ever write something I have thought it out in my head over and over and imagine how it would look and played the scene out, sometimes with different things and different dialog. So I have different little takes to consider and sometimes I write two or three and then I pick the one that fits best and has the best tone.


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## Tyrael (May 15, 2008)

That seems quite an alien method to me, I know what's going to happen in a scene then it unfolds as I write, sometimes unexpectedly. Hell, the biggest plot twist in CA happened purely on the spot.


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## Lord Yu (May 15, 2008)

I got an awesome idea.X3


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 15, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> That seems quite an alien method to me, I know what's going to happen in a scene then it unfolds as I write, sometimes unexpectedly. Hell, the biggest plot twist in CA happened purely on the spot.



There are some points where things just come to me, other times--I have things planed out a year in advance.


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## Lord Yu (May 15, 2008)

Everything comes to me at the moment like a waking dream unfolding before me.X3


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## Segan (May 16, 2008)

Oh, nice thread. For some reason, you get often lucky to find something good, while you're bored.

In fact, I actually had planned a story and wrote a few pages, but I always kind of lose track of it and I can't start where I left because I've more pressing business to do. Still, the story always keeps spinning in my head.

And I always have the problem of describing things out of actual plot (keep in mind, that it's always in German), simply because my stock of words is too limited for what I've in mind.

I'll keep an eye on this thread, possibly to get inspiration sometime in future.


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## Tyrael (May 17, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Everything comes to me at the moment like a waking dream unfolding before me.X3



So you can't control it and it's mostly disturbing or indulgent?



Segan said:


> Oh, nice thread. For some reason, you get often lucky to find something good, while you're bored.
> 
> In fact, I actually had planned a story and wrote a few pages, but I always kind of lose track of it and I can't start where I left because I've more pressing business to do. Still, the story always keeps spinning in my head.
> 
> ...



I always admire those fluent in two languages. Writing a whole story takes one hell of a long time, unless it's short., so if you wanna do it you've gotta have a lot of conviction. Something I'm struggling with atm.


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## Serp (May 17, 2008)

I miss this thread, Arg I am having troubles with my Novel, I have the 4 main parts of it all planned out, the problem is that I can't seem to link them together in a believable fashion.


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## Tyrael (May 17, 2008)

The important thing is if it's believable within the context of the story, sometimes you'd be surprised. You still wrestling with the overarching plan atm?


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## Serp (May 17, 2008)

True but in my novel, it has a large time period to cover and im not sure how to introduce it.


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## Tyrael (May 17, 2008)

Serp said:


> True but in my novel, it has a large time period to cover and im not sure how to introduce it.



In terms of story or style (or maybe both)?


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## Serp (May 17, 2008)

Both actually.


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## Tyrael (May 17, 2008)

Storywise treat it like a new story: set-up an alternate equilibrium before introducing the actions that make that point in time significant. Honestly it can go in many different directions but treating each part like a different story might be a good idea, then, once you have that laid out, you can concentrate on making it all cohesive. It doesn't all need to flow together, the odd stop and start will clearly tell your readers it's a new section.


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## Serp (May 17, 2008)

I think the problem was that I wanted to make it into separate books, but realized each section was going to be too short so I decided to combine it. So techinically there is 4 parts with the same characters but 4 different climaxes :/.


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## Tyrael (May 17, 2008)

That's a perfectly good way of doing things; it didn't damage LotR.


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## Serp (May 17, 2008)

But each of the LoTR books was large with mine each one is average novella size, do you mind if I added you on MSN im always looking for other ppl to talk to that love writing just as much as me.


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## Tyrael (May 18, 2008)

Serp said:


> But each of the LoTR books was large with mine each one is average novella size, do you mind if I added you on MSN im always looking for other ppl to talk to that love writing just as much as me.



christopher_dowie@hotmail.com, go for it. And I'm referring to all 6 books in LotR that were released in three volumes.


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## Serp (May 18, 2008)

Ok fair douse


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## Tyrael (May 19, 2008)

Wrote this the other day, but I'm kinda worried I was a little too lax with my word/syntax limitation.

Is this a lot of opulent wankery?:

*Spoiler*: __ 



The morning was an odd one. Ryan had pulled himself, unwillingly, from his bed and winced under the direct sunlight that shone through his window. He squinted out of the window, paused, squinted again. The sky was a colour between pink and red. He heard his mum’s voice in his head, her singsong tone she had used when he was a child.

The beach reflected that fragile light; soft sand catching a warm glow. The sight was marred by driftwood that had made home to the beach since Ryan could remember: gnarled and twisted dark objects that broke the equilibrium of the sand with a sense of ultimate anarchy, no two pieces of wood looking the same. Deep down he actually liked the way this pristine landscape was broken and given variance by the sporadic pattern before him.

The beach was the one defining point in his plain town. Other than that there was buildings, built for functionality, and the accompanying grey. It was just big enough to house poverty, albeit less than extreme, but not big enough to have anything remotely definitive about it, apart from the beach. The beach that nobody went to.

His parents had taken him often to the beach when he was younger. He could vaguely recall an endless expanse of golden dust filled with weird and exotic objects and people. Now it both bored and annoyed him. It was a reminder of the isolation of the town, the nearest city was an hour on the bus, and the sand annoyed him and left him uninspired. Still, this place was as much a part of him as the rest of the town and deserved a proper farewell.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2008)

Well the newest character sketch is kind of out, its not been inked or colored yet. But this is what the sketch looks like, its of Madeleine from the Heaven Forbid Story.


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## Serp (May 20, 2008)

CTK I am very interested in your work which one , if I am allowed should I read first in your opinion.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2008)

It depends on what you want, something long or short?


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## Serp (May 20, 2008)

Hmm, well some long that will tickle my supernatural side


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2008)

I guess you want either Heaven Forbid or Croatoan, either is good, but I need to finish posting Croatoan I think, which I can do if need be. But Heaven Forbid is all up.


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## Serp (May 20, 2008)

Then I guess Its Heaven Forbid. ^^


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2008)

I think Heaven Forbid is a pretty solid story, its probably one of my better ones so far so far.


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## Tyrael (May 20, 2008)

I still need to read that and neko's tradewinds. Ought to get round to that at some point.


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## Serp (May 20, 2008)

Well Ive just started my new one  for once Im not sure where its headed as I usually am with my stories. 
I don't even have a name .


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2008)

I got my stories name from a song by The Fray.


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## Serp (May 20, 2008)

Plagiarism


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2008)

Many of my stories take on titles like that, Heaven Forbid was meant to be a codename until I could think of a title, but it stuck.


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## Serp (May 20, 2008)

I was joking about my previous comment, I think that song lyrics are a brilliant idea.


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## Lord Yu (May 20, 2008)

I took my story's name from the overall mood of it.


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## Chidoriblade (May 20, 2008)

*sigh* I've finally started on a solid storyline that I've been thinking of and writing  since I turned twelve. It's been three years. I've written at least 15 versions of the prologue. At least 10 version's of chapter 1. 3 Version's of chapter 2. 1 Version of chapter 3.

When I first wrote it, it sucked, it really sucked. But I love the overall storyline to it, and I've even kept all the characters!

And yesterday, my fifteenth birthday (not mentioning that for no reason), I finally got insperation to start it! It's fantasy, the type that the Hero runs into battle to save the girl fantasy, but with a twist! 

Here's what I have of the Prolouge... I'll write it in fanfic style for now because it's easier to read on forums.


*Spoiler*: __ 




Prolouge:

Shadows flickered along stone walls. They hid behind large marble pillars. They listened as quick foot-steps disturbd the quiet, and they watched as a boy ran fearlessly though their haunted halls, a small condensed ball of light in his hands. They watched as he ran from hall to hall, just like the previous two...

Curiosity over took many of the Shadows and they followed the boy as he unknowingly went deeper and deeper into the earth. They followed him into later halls that began to twist slightly, bringing them down into a slow spiral. Many of the Shadows attempted to attack the boy, but they could never pass into the radius of light that surrounded him. The boy continued running, unaware, his mind clouded.

Soon another light began to show. A dim red glow came from the walls and grew stronger in each hall. And with each hall the Shadows lessened, afraid of the glow that they had lived with for years.

The boy flung himself into a hall where the red glow bathed the entire room. The ball of light dissapeared as he rolled onto his back, his chest heaving up and down under a green vest. He waited for minutes until his hear stopped pounding until he stood, removing a sword with a golden blade from a sheath hidden on his back as he did so.

Slowly, he moved across the hall until he reached a set of stone doors. The left one stood ever so slightly ajar, letting an even more powerful glow in from the other side. Carefully he eased the tip of his sword into the gap and began to open the door...

"Nordath."

The boy jumped away from the door as if stung. He landed and quickly assumed a trained stance for defense. Two voices began laughing from the other hall.

Nordath's thoughts were swimming around his head. _It's them! That was Rithara just now... but she sounded different._

He was torn from his thoughts by a male voice museing, "The human is scared! Well, he is faced by the two strongest Caragan..."

"Rithara! Nora!" Nordath yelled. "What happened to you two? Where are the others?"

The left hand door opened but no person stood in the entry way.

"Foolish, Nordath. You are still a boy, bearly fourteen," this voice was female.

_Yeah, that's definetly Rithara,_ Nordath confirmed.

"We killed the other six, boy," the male voice, Nora, said. "And we gained their strength's, and now we will kill you and have all seven of the other's powers! _Jerono_!"

Nordath rolled behind the nearest marble pillar as a jet of fire shot out from the door. As soon as the fire ended, Nordath jumped back in view of the door, his left hand extended. "_Hidom_!"

A blue lightning curled around his fingers before shooting out at the door. The lightning reflected against something metallic. Suddenly a woman with long black hair tied in a braid appeared in front of Nordath out of thin air. Her fist slammed into Nordath's gut with enough force to lift him off his feet. Suddenly a man appeared hext to him and grabbed him out of the air. Nora threw Nordath away with ease.

Nordath rolled on the stone floor, stopping on his back. "I don't remember Shade's or Elves being that fast. That's just not possible," he whispered.

"We told you! When we killed the others, we abosrbed their strengths!" Nora shouted.

Rithara smirked. "And you're next!"

Nordath twisted to his side, just in time to avoid Nora's emerald sword.









And that's all I have so far. But I've got nine Caragan warriors. They each have a different color blade and are one of the following races: Human, Elf, or Shade.

Shade's are not like the Shade's in other fantasy's.

And the Caragan colors are:
Gold
Silver
White
Onyx(Black)
Emerald
Sapphire
Violet
Jade
Red

Some are gem colored, other's are not.

So, what do you guys think? And the Prolouge is set long before the main story line so, Nordath isn't the main character of the story.


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## Serp (May 20, 2008)

I have prologue of one of my characters plz tell me what you think.

*Spoiler*: __ 



  [FONT=&quot]Prologue 1. Vermistra Delarbok [/FONT]

  [FONT=&quot]Vermistra, or Ver to her friends if she had any, was the second child of Lord Oldas Delarbok VIII, she had spent all 14 years of her life with the castle walls and today was to be no different.[/FONT]

  [FONT=&quot]Ver would sit on the ledge of her bedroom balcony, surveying the garden, the crisp grass bordered off by the rows of flowerbeds, roses, tulips and orchids all arranged perfectly, all had to be perfect in the Delarbok household, even the children. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Noon[/FONT][FONT=&quot], the time of the day, that she hated most and equally loved the most. Her brother would go outside and practice magic with his teachers, Ver so badly wanted to learn the kind of magic her brother would go and learn, but she had to settle for the simple stuff she got during her tutor sessions. [/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]   Oldas IX,  was Vermistras older brother and heir to the Delarbok legacy and thus had to be fully prepared for his future,  he had his personal magic lesson everyday at [/FONT][FONT=&quot]noon[/FONT][FONT=&quot] till dusk. Oldas would go to the designated area, which was just visible from Vers balcony, and practice magic for hours, not the kind of magic found in everyday ordinary grimoires but the secret stuff that only the family and their advisors knew. Everyday Ver would watch her brother practice the spells, and everyday she would ask him to tell her what he had learned and everyday he said no. After all that watching of him, Ver was sure she could do better than him, she had always been better at the basic magic they learned together what made this any different, all she could see was the spells being cast nothing to help her learn them, the forbidden fruit. The Delarbok family lived in their Greek castle with the catacombs and walls of the castle hiding the secrets of their family. Ver although a great spellcaster, was ignored by her father for the simple reasoning that boys were worth more than females, her father failed to recognise her gifts and even her as a person. Each and everyday was the same for her, wake up to an overly large yet empty bedroom, one hour of magic practice and then the rest of the day spent sitting on her balcony ledge and watching, always watching. Her family being one of families that made up the International coven of sorcerery, had great influence on the magical community and thus had a standard of magic to uphold. The families choice of magics, were those of natural world, power drawn from Mother Nature herself, control over the elements. The other magics that her family had aligned themselves with is that of illusions power to alter the mind of others to make them witness whatever the caster desires, that exact magic Ver was forbidden to learn. After the constant day to day life, like a broken record, Ver decided to do something about it, something she had already put into motion.[/FONT]




Edit:  you beat me too it.


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## Lord Yu (May 20, 2008)

I'd post my prologue but it's too long.


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## Serp (May 20, 2008)

This is one third of my prologue


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 20, 2008)

I often times have to write several prologues and beginnings to a single story just to find the right one, its not abnormal or anything, you know. I think when I did story three I wrote twelve starts, and on my first story I did three endings. The second one vanished from my computer. 

 Oh and did you realize that we're almost 100 pages in?


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## Lord Yu (May 21, 2008)

Serp said:


> This is one third of my prologue



Mine is probably not as neatly divided as yours.


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## Serp (May 21, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Mine is probably not as neatly divided as yours.


Mine is only neatly divided as it is split between my 3 main chars


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## Lord Yu (May 21, 2008)

I only start two character paths in the prologue. There's a third character path that starts later but it's intro is much longer and more involved then the others. Either way that character doesn't get much to do till the second book.


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## Serp (May 21, 2008)

I just decided to do some char sketches randomly I thought maybe if I had a physical picture of the characters I could progress the story better. Forgive me they are no masterpiece


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## Konoha.Green.Beast. (May 21, 2008)

Me is new here :3

Altough I have been writing for 2 years, I am stuck right now whit a mistery/drama/fantasy history, because the villian comes to much troublesome to make up whitouth ripping off classics.

Damn.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 21, 2008)

Serp said:


> I just decided to do some char sketches randomly I thought maybe if I had a physical picture of the characters I could progress the story better. Forgive me they are no masterpiece



That's actually good enough for just having a sketch. Believe it or not I sit and draw clothes and and weapons in this book to make sure that I know what they will look like. My character sketches are usually to show how things work or will look. But the ones I actually post are more for fun.



Konoha.Green.Beast. said:


> Me is new here :3
> 
> Altough I have been writing for 2 years, I am stuck right now whit a mistery/drama/fantasy history, because the villian comes to much troublesome to make up whitouth ripping off classics.
> 
> Damn.



You'll either have to live with it and try to write it differently and add your own twist to it or you'll have to read more and pick up more stuff in your head so that when you do draw from somewhere its not so obvious. If a character is too complex and draws from all these different places and styles it might not be a good idea to use them like that since it can seem like a little much and unrealistic to the reader.


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## Lord Yu (May 21, 2008)

I couldn't draw my characters. My designs for some of them are too elaborate. I'm also completely anal about their designs.


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## Serp (May 21, 2008)

> That's actually good enough for just having a sketch. Believe it or not I sit and draw clothes and and weapons in this book to make sure that I know what they will look like. My character sketches are usually to show how things work or will look. But the ones I actually post are more for fun.


Why thank you I could actually draw much more detailed/better pictures but the start to deviate from what expected them to look like, and I still have problems with poses, while I can draw a completely detailed head and chest I still can draw poses  
But I too draw the weapons and everything for the story as I started out as an illustrative profiler I find it fun.


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## Tyrael (May 21, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I couldn't draw my characters. My designs for some of them are too elaborate. I'm also completely anal about their designs.



Ditto, but for different reasons:


*Spoiler*: __ 



I can't draw. They'd all look like stick figures.


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## Chidoriblade (May 21, 2008)

Konoha.Green.Beast. said:


> Me is new here :3
> 
> Altough I have been writing for 2 years, I am stuck right now whit a mistery/drama/fantasy history, because the villian comes to much troublesome to make up whitouth ripping off classics.
> 
> Damn.




It's too hard to create a character without ripping off something these days. So, I just think of multiple characters too start off with (all origional) then I customize them before I decide which to use. Who cares if they seem like rip off's at first, soon enough they'll become their own character. But at the beggining I based character's strongly off of my friends and family. Try that.


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## Tyrael (May 21, 2008)

Humans are all the same. Just making them interesting or someone your reader can empathise with. The best piece of advice I've ever heard about that is "all of your characters have to want something, even if it's only a glass of water."


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## Lord Yu (May 21, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Ditto, but for different reasons:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I can't either. But I have small amount of skills.


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## Chidoriblade (May 21, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I can't either. But I have small amount of skills.



I wish I had a small amount of skills. I can draw anime eyes, that's about it.  I always end up screwing up the head, but if I try to work on a body, it's not proportional but you can tell it's human.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 22, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I couldn't draw my characters. My designs for some of them are too elaborate. I'm also completely anal about their designs.



Luckily for me, Akiko is a brilliant artist and she's very good at taking my ideas and running with them to the point that the characters looks better than I could have pictured them. With this last picture she gave my Madeleine character a magic that I didn't think could be there. 



Serp said:


> Why thank you I could actually draw much more detailed/better pictures but the start to deviate from what expected them to look like, and I still have problems with poses, while I can draw a completely detailed head and chest I still can draw poses
> But I too draw the weapons and everything for the story as I started out as an illustrative profiler I find it fun.



Poses are hard for me...but I do actually have a system for doing them. 



Tyrael said:


> Ditto, but for different reasons:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Lol, recently I haven't felt like drawing, but I love seeing my characters illustrated. 



Chidoriblade said:


> I wish I had a small amount of skills. I can draw anime eyes, that's about it.  I always end up screwing up the head, but if I try to work on a body, it's not proportional but you can tell it's human.



I can draw but I am really lazy.


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## Tyrael (May 22, 2008)

I'm considering rewriting CA...

...again.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 22, 2008)

Rewrites are hard man, but if you still have the original there to look over and read up on then it makes things a hell of a lot easier. But sometimes there is a lot of good that can come from the rewrite, like this newest story I am working on, I am using a part from an old story to start it off, because its going to be more useful and better thought out there. But I actually have to go and pull that piece off another story.


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## Tyrael (May 22, 2008)

This rewrite is gonna be a reworking of many story points as well as the way/order of it's telling. In fact, it's going to be told completely differently-I'm gonna try and put all of the story I have at the moment and put it into one book (I was planning on doing two, maybe 3). I'm having a hard time getting my head around everything in the story though.


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## Xyfar (May 23, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I know there are others out there like me who have books in them. Gather in this thread to discuss your work.



I'm working on my own 5 series epic saga... It's probably going to be called Of the Arcane. First book of the series=Legend of Windrake, check it out!


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## Tyrael (May 23, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I often times have to write several prologues and beginnings to a single story just to find the right one, its not abnormal or anything, you know. I think when I did story three I wrote twelve starts, and on my first story I did three endings. The second one vanished from my computer.
> 
> Oh and did you realize that we're almost 100 pages in?



Lackadaisical Literary Liturgy I beat us to it.

Serp, Chidoriblade and Xyfar, I'll give your stuff a look through later. Jus' warnin' you, I'll be as harsh (or as complimentary) as I feel I need to be. I've gotten far too lax with my criticisms as of late.


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## Xyfar (May 23, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Lackadaisical Literary Liturgy I beat us to it.
> 
> Serp, Chidoriblade and Xyfar, I'll give your stuff a look through later. Jus' warnin' you, I'll be as harsh (or as complimentary) as I feel I need to be. I've gotten far too lax with my criticisms as of late.



Harsh criticisms sting, but they are unnecessary. They really open your eyes to what people think, ect. I say bring it on! 

lol, anything is welcome.


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## Serp (May 24, 2008)

what happened to our review.


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## Lord Yu (May 24, 2008)

Coddle or torture? Do you be nice to your favorite characters or inflict unspeakable horror upon them. The latter is my answer.


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## Chee (May 24, 2008)

Inflicting unspeakable horror on your characters is pretty much what makes a story a good story. 

I wouldn't imagine reading a book where nothing happens to the character.


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## Lord Yu (May 24, 2008)

No one reads a story about happy people.


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## Chee (May 24, 2008)

Happy people suck.


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## Lord Yu (May 25, 2008)

By coddle I mean when shit starts exploding and bullets or whatever starts flying. Are they out of harms way taking only light scratches or do you tear off their legs and make em crawl. I've made a main walk with skinned legs.


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## Chee (May 25, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> By coddle I mean when shit starts exploding and bullets or whatever starts flying. Are they out of harms way taking only light scratches or do you tear off their legs and make em crawl. I've made a main walk with skinned legs.



Oh you mean actual physical harm (thought you meant emotional shit)? 

If I find it suitable for a character to have physical disabilites, then yes I would torture the shit out of the guy. But it also depends on the situation, and whether the punishment of the character is suitable to the event. Like if a robbery happened, I wouldn't make him tortured beyond belief, I would make it reasonable like a gun shot or something. And it would also have to pertain to the story and link to other events, I ain't gonna have my character shot one day and then he'll fart rainbows the next...if you catch my drift. xD


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## Lord Yu (May 25, 2008)

I torture physically and emotionally. I'm a sick bastard.


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## Chee (May 25, 2008)

Torture makes reading funner. 

I do both as well, but its mostly emotionally. I'll probably do more physical shit when I do a horror novel.


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## Lord Yu (May 25, 2008)

I've noticed that, my writing style used to be horror influenced, but now it's fantasy style. I said it before and I'll say it again. I want to go back. I need to fire up Tsukihime again. Slow terror was so much fun.


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## Chee (May 25, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I've noticed that, my writing style used to be horror influenced, but now it's fantasy style. I said it before and I'll say it again. I want to go back. I need to fire up Tsukihime again. Slow terror was so much fun.



Oh yea, you should totally do that. I love horror, and there's rarely any good horror novels anymore. And I think slow and steady pacing horror is the best, I hate when novels just jump directly into the action with no step-up or development.
And even though I haven't read anything from you, I can tell that you have the balls to do shit to characters which make horror novels even better.


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## Lord Yu (May 25, 2008)

I write fantasy stuff. But I am fond of the mysterious and grotesque. I like to build pain, sorrow and fear.


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## Chee (May 25, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I write fantasy stuff. But I am fond of the mysterious and grotesque. I like to build pain, sorrow and fear.



Same here. But I'm trying to get into the horror genre, I really like it now...I blame Steven King.


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## Lord Yu (May 25, 2008)

I blame Type Moon. My rewrite has been tough but so far more productive than anything I've done in months maybe even a year.


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## Chee (May 25, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I blame Type Moon. My rewrite has been tough but so far more productive than anything I've done in months maybe even a year.



That's great, do you think it will get published, or is it in a publishing stage right now?


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## Lord Yu (May 25, 2008)

I hope I can get it published.


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## Chee (May 25, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I hope I can get it published.



Don't we all. 

What's your story about?


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## Last leaf village ninja (May 25, 2008)

I hope we can all get our books published. I had the hardest time tryina write today and yestdaday... i just couldn't push myself ta write... I'm so distracted and I always feel like the scenes I'm about to write ain't gon be no good. -_- I dunno if I would call this writer's block cuz I was writin some of the chap three days ago and i know what's s'pose ta happen.


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## Chee (May 25, 2008)

Last leaf village ninja said:


> I hope we can all get our books published. I had the hardest time tryina write today and yestdaday... i just couldn't push myself ta write... I'm so distracted and I always feel like the scenes I'm about to write ain't gon be no good. -_- I dunno if I would call this writer's block cuz I was writin some of the chap three days ago and i know what's s'pose ta happen.



Take a break, and don't think about your novel. Ideas come to you when you least expect it. Write it down as soon as you think about it, and when you feel like writing (I never force myself to write, everytime I do it, the writing is shitty) tie the idea that popped in your head with the rest of the story.

Example: I'm writing a story about werewolves, but I don't know how to end the story. So one day I'm watching The Soup, and an idea hits me like a train. I'm watching that goddamn show, THE SOUP which has nothing to do with werewolves, but I got an idea and I think I have a great ending now all thanks to taking a break.


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## Last leaf village ninja (May 25, 2008)

lol. I feel like I take too many breaks... Like I'm eitha goin to work, watchin somethin on tv, or playin some videogame. I think it might be cuz I'm stressed. Stressed about bein successful (i just failed college and i might gettin kicked out the house afta summa ends), stressed about relationships, stressed about goin to work, stressed about bein stressed out. Writin's the only thing I'm good at (at least i think), but at the same time my motivation is so damn low.

But thanks for talkin to me.


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## Lord Yu (May 25, 2008)

Michelle's daughter is spirited away by a strange man and her estranged brother-in-law Cyrus comes to her aid. They travel to the world of Alrusavera to find her. The daughter Eridaltia finds herself in what at first appears to be an Ancient Japanese temple. There she meets strange young noblewoman Aoi Ichikawa and learns of an Ancient Goddess who bears her last name. On the far edge of Alrusavera a Sergeant Gohei Kanahara discovers a a dark plot that threatens to unravel an entire region.

Sounds kind of light and weaboo when I explain it like that. However it's pretty bloody right out the gate things are rarely what they seem and yes one country uses Japanese. I fail at giving a synopsis for my story because it starts out so simple yet gets really weird really fast.


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## Chee (May 25, 2008)

^^ I. AM. INTERESTED. xD

I'd totally read that. Cyrus is the main character? Is he the one with the skinned legs?



Last leaf village ninja said:


> lol. I feel like I take too many breaks... Like I'm eitha goin to work, watchin somethin on tv, or playin some videogame. I think it might be cuz I'm stressed. Stressed about bein successful (i just failed college and i might gettin kicked out the house afta summa ends), stressed about relationships, stressed about goin to work, stressed about bein stressed out. Writin's the only thing I'm good at (at least i think), but at the same time my motivation is so damn low.
> 
> But thanks for talkin to me.



At least you think? No, no, no, if you want to be a better writer you got to motivate yourself that you are one. No publisher is going to take you seriously when you offer them a manuscript of your novel with a, "I think its good...I dunno."
Motivate yourself, take your daily troubles and translate them into your character's lives to make them believable to your readers, and most off all have some damn balls when your writing.


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## Last leaf village ninja (May 25, 2008)

Wow, Lord Yu, that sounds like a good story!

Chee: I mean, I think i'm good, but I don't wanna be all cocky and shit. lol. I been writin for years, so I would hope I'm ok. I will act confident if I do finish my novel and hand it to a publisher.

As for translatin my troubles into the story itself, I do, but some events in the story is just too far away for me ta do that, but I'll keep tryin somehow. Maybe I'm just gettin tired of writin fight scenes, as I had ta write one for ch.13, one for ch.14, a few real short ones in ch.15, and now a big one in ch.16. Afta this, I can get back to calm scenes for a bit. Yeah, maybe that's it. Too much fightin... I'd ratha just watch it animated. lmao.


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## Lord Yu (May 25, 2008)

Cyrus is not a perspective character. The story follows Michelle, Eridaltia, Gohei, and 4th character to be disclosed within. May have more than 4 depends on where the plot is goes.


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## Chee (May 25, 2008)

Those are some wild names. 

When you say it follows four characters...does each chapter explain their experiences from their perspective but it still develops the story? I've read a couple of books like that, seems pretty hard to do cause you gotta keep your readers interested as you change characters and settings. 



Last leaf village ninja said:


> Wow, Lord Yu, that sounds like a good story!
> 
> Chee: I mean, I think i'm good, but I don't wanna be all cocky and shit. lol. I been writin for years, so I would hope I'm ok. I will act confident if I do finish my novel and hand it to a publisher.
> 
> As for translatin my troubles into the story itself, I do, but some events in the story is just too far away for me ta do that, but I'll keep tryin somehow. Maybe I'm just gettin tired of writin fight scenes, as I had ta write one for ch.13, one for ch.14, a few real short ones in ch.15, and now a big one in ch.16. Afta this, I can get back to calm scenes for a bit. Yeah, maybe that's it. Too much fightin... I'd ratha just watch it animated. lmao.



Confidence > cocky. 

As for your story, I think you should overlook it and start a checklist (sorta kinda like a checklist):
Do your characters have a believable background, and does that background effect their personality and future decisions?
Does your story have a small logline that can sum the story up in at least one sentence? If not, you might be missing elements.
Does the story have an effective beginning, middle and an end?
Does every sentence and dialouge progress the story?
If you think something odd in your phrasing, try changing it till its satisfying.
Is the rising action, truely rising action? Or is it just...plain action?
Does the climax tie in everything?
Is your wording and vocabulary limited? Or is there repeated word usage? Try expanding your vocabulary.

I personally try to get out more often, to experience different things so my writing isn't limited and shallow.

Oh my god, I am drabbling on and on.


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## Lord Yu (May 25, 2008)

I live off baseless confidence.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 25, 2008)

New developments, I am going to take a little time off from the writing to plan the next story out better. Maybe like no writing for a week, but I can't promise things. Also I have a driving need to write a serious fan fiction for Sonic the Hedgehog, but one following the comic/Saturday Morning cartoon....and one also about Mario that's very serious and grown up. The Mario one would involve the Koopa Kids (but grown) and other old elements from the games gone past...with maybe some of the new stuff thrown in. I know all of this might sound dumb and silly, but those are two canons where I loved things and I would like to see them updated. I think every Sonic show since that one has sucked balls, and Mario enemies were never as cool to me as when it was the Koopa Kids.


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## neko-sennin (May 25, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> That seems quite an alien method to me, I know what's going to happen in a scene then it unfolds as I write, sometimes unexpectedly. Hell, the biggest plot twist in CA happened purely on the spot.



That's similar to how I am. Even in parts of the story I'm _rewriting_, my characters will often arrive at the foreseen destination, but take a very different route to get there. I find this works out for the best, because if your characters are making their own choices and devising their own methods, it means they're taking on their own life.



Serp said:


> I miss this thread, Arg I am having troubles with my Novel, I have the 4 main parts of it all planned out, the problem is that I can't seem to link them together in a believable fashion.



My advice would be to write each part as its own. I once wrote a story that involved 6 characters getting split up, but going places and doing things that had subtle effects on one another's adventures. I found it easier to write each character's account separately, and then carefully arrange the chapters later to connect each other without giving things away too soon. With yours, a possible approach might be to finish each section, then look at the whole thing later, figure out how and where each of them connects, especially in terms of relations between characters, events, and the broader plotline, and use those connections to figure out how to link each section together.

I personally make little use of outlines, but I often find them handy in solving complex storyline snags and long-term plotholes.



Lord Yu said:


> I couldn't draw my characters. My designs for some of them are too elaborate. I'm also completely anal about their designs.



Sadly, it takes me a really long time to draw anything of half-way decent quality, and I can be a royal perfectionist about my work, so I chose to devote my time to developing my writing, which I possess far greater skill at than I ever will at drawing.



Tyrael said:


> I'm considering rewriting CA...
> 
> ...again.



Aw, and I just finished the critique of 1-3. Oh well, before I sent it along, I included my thoughts on the story thus far, and from the sound of your subsequent posts, it sounds as if you have your own issues with the flow of chapters and scenes. I thought they were okay the way they were, but then again I also didn't get to see the rest of the story, so I can't be sure. I figure the author knows best. No matter what, don't give up on it, it's got potential.


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## Tyrael (May 25, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Aw, and I just finished the critique of 1-3. Oh well, before I sent it along, I included my thoughts on the story thus far, and from the sound of your subsequent posts, it sounds as if you have your own issues with the flow of chapters and scenes. I thought they were okay the way they were, but then again I also didn't get to see the rest of the story, so I can't be sure. I figure the author knows best. No matter what, don't give up on it, it's got potential.



Cheers man, you do raise some very salient points pertaining to the story and when I proof read for typos/grammatical errors I always miss a huge amount. At the moment I'm only considering rewriting CA and even if I do I still might use the version I sent you. If you wouldn't mind I could send over another batch of chapters, although if you've got a crazy schedule it might do with postponing. Oh and once I've finished my exams I'll finish the 1st part of tradewinds.

And Pratchett=god, or close enough.


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## Serp (May 25, 2008)

Neko-Sennin said:
			
		

> My advice would be to write each part as its own. I once wrote a story that involved 6 characters getting split up, but going places and doing things that had subtle effects on one another's adventures. I found it easier to write each character's account separately, and then carefully arrange the chapters later to connect each other without giving things away too soon. With yours, a possible approach might be to finish each section, then look at the whole thing later, figure out how and where each of them connects, especially in terms of relations between characters, events, and the broader plotline, and use those connections to figure out how to link each section together.


That is exactly what I'm doing now, but the fact is all 4 parts are about the same person, after timeskips, I just don't know how to write the transition period. 



> I'm writing a story about werewolves, but I don't know how to end the story. So one day I'm watching The Soup, and an idea hits me like a train. I'm watching that goddamn show, THE SOUP which has nothing to do with werewolves, but I got an idea and I think I have a great ending now all thanks to taking a break.



 I'm writing a story about werewolves too, my story needs a conclusion for the first part and then a link to the second part


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## Tyrael (May 25, 2008)

Serp said:


> what happened to our review.



They're coming, once I finish my exams that is.



Lord Yu said:


> Coddle or torture? Do you be nice to your favorite characters or inflict unspeakable horror upon them. The latter is my answer.



Both, if you're always AAAAAARRGH THE HORROR!!!!! then it kinda gets repetitive. Also there's different ways to coddle or torture appropriately.


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## Chee (May 25, 2008)

Serp said:


> I'm writing a story about werewolves too, my story needs a conclusion for the first part and then a link to the second part



Awesome fudgebuckets. 

I'm sure it will come to you at the right moment. 
I still don't know where to end the first part and how to end the second one, but I got the beginnings and middles all planned out. So I'm just letting my imagination go, see what my brain diddle-daddles around with.


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## Serp (May 25, 2008)

> I still don't know where to end the first part and how to end the second one, but I got the beginnings and middles all planned out. So I'm just letting my imagination go, see what my brain diddle-daddles around with.



Thats exactly why I'm stuck. And I hope you find out how to end your parts, as I try to do the same


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## Lord Yu (May 25, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Both, if you're always AAAAAARRGH THE HORROR!!!!! then it kinda gets repetitive. Also there's different ways yo coddle or torture appropriately.



You underestimate my deviations.


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## neko-sennin (May 25, 2008)

Serp said:


> That is exactly what I'm doing now, but the fact is all 4 parts are about the same person, after timeskips, I just don't know how to write the transition period.



Ah, my misunderstanding. It's possible that you might not need any interludes if you work the fact that time has passed into the narrative itself. This can be done blatantly, such as a reunion with characters that have been apart for a long time or a certain milestone in the character's life, for instance, or it can be done more subtly, with the details introduced gradually throughout the first chapter or two after the timeskip. It can even be stated or suggested in story or chapter titles. If necessary, it can include flashbacks or references to important moments during the intervening months or years, without having to cover all of it. A lot of it depends on both how long the timeskips are, and what all happened in this person's life during that time.


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## Serp (May 25, 2008)

Yea thanks, one problem is that with my story as each part is very different in away it is very confusing. 

Like part two basically ends with him being sold to some, while part three is him recovering from insanity 

Yea really fucked up, but thanks alot your advice really helped ^^

I thought I might as well post the title pictars for my novels ^^



*Spoiler*: _The Anthropos saga_


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## Chee (May 25, 2008)

Whoa, those are really cool!


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## Serp (May 25, 2008)

Why thank you, I like to fuck about in photoshop, not my best work but meh 

Its all about teh werewolves


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## Chee (May 25, 2008)

I'm diggin' the second one, the one in yellow. I like how its colored and shaded. It's awesome.


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## Serp (May 25, 2008)

The second one, AKA the second part of my story is the one with the most definite story but that also means In need to flush it out alot more  

Lets just say the lycanthropes, get a bit ill


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## Tyrael (May 26, 2008)

Those are really kl, I is shit with anything graphic. How's the content of those books comin' along?

Oh and my would be entry for the FF is my newest blog entry. Check it out as through some failure in numeracy it fails the entry requirement.


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## ViolentlyHappy (May 26, 2008)

I've got a question. What would be easier? Creating your characters first or creating the background of your story first?

I've been leaning towards creating the background first but I already have a couple of characters in mind. I don't want to have to jump back and forth in between the two, or is that just the inevitable?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 26, 2008)

I think in the case of which to do first it all depends on the writer themselves.


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## Serp (May 26, 2008)

ViolentlyHappy said:


> I've got a question. What would be easier? Creating your characters first or creating the background of your story first?
> 
> I've been leaning towards creating the background first but I already have a couple of characters in mind. I don't want to have to jump back and forth in between the two, or is that just the inevitable?



With me is kinda intermediate, I make a basic char form then I alter it to fit their character background, its genius


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 26, 2008)

Most of my characters were made up years ago for another story and actually have been used again and again. But now they're pretty much in the story I think that my mind made them for, at the time I just didn't know it.


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## Lord Yu (May 26, 2008)

I made the characters then the backgrounds.


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## ViolentlyHappy (May 26, 2008)

I see. So probably making the characters first would be easier.


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## Lord Yu (May 26, 2008)

It depends on your focus. If your focus is on story then that should come first. However, then the characters become symbols rather than actual characters.


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## Einstein (May 26, 2008)

ViolentlyHappy said:


> I've got a question. What would be easier? Creating your characters first or creating the background of your story first?
> 
> I've been leaning towards creating the background first but I already have a couple of characters in mind. I don't want to have to jump back and forth in between the two, or is that just the inevitable?


I make the backgrounds for stories first, because my characters are flexible enough that I can fit them into whatever background I need to.

See if you can make the characters fit into the background. If not, you'll have to make a background to fit your characters. It's like a shoe and a foot - the foot can go in the shoe, but the shoe can't go in the foot. If the characters are your foot, put them into the background, the shoe. If your characters are your shoe, create a foot, or a background that can fit into them.


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## ViolentlyHappy (May 26, 2008)

Lord Yu said:
			
		

> It depends on your focus. If your focus is on story then that should come first. However, then the characters become symbols rather than actual characters.



I could try though its going to be such a challenge since I tend to be really capricious. 



			
				Einstein said:
			
		

> I make the backgrounds for stories first, because my characters are flexible enough that I can fit them into whatever background I need to.
> 
> See if you can make the characters fit into the background. If not, you'll have to make a background to fit your characters. It's like a shoe and a foot - the foot can go in the shoe, but the shoe can't go in the foot. If the characters are your foot, put them into the background, the shoe. If your characters are your shoe, create a foot, or a background that can fit into them.



 This makes since!


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 26, 2008)

I really don't like writing where my characters will fit into *any* story, I feel like the story has to tailor to the characters. The story needs to be made for the characters and able to move in the direction that the characters need it to. I don't mean that you should have all the characters get all their hopes and dreams. I just mean that they should develop how they have to and not be restricted by the story.

So often the characters in a story you have things that are not even characters yet they become a character themselves, like the River in Huckleberry Finn. Its really good when your background meshes perfectly with your characters. So regardless of which you do first, make sure they fit. Don't be reluctant to change something if it doesn't agree with the characters.


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## Chee (May 26, 2008)

I have no idea which one I created first...it all sorta just flowed together at the same time. I made up the characters and the backgrounds...pretty much simultaneously.

I think there is no correct way of establishing your characters or the story/plot...I think it just works itself out over time.


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## Batman (May 26, 2008)

How come I still can't think of a chapter title for the last chapter in my book?? It's been like 2 years! :S


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

Choose a random word from the chapter.  
Look over the chapter, and find a word that really *pops* out at you and use it for your chapter title.


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2008)

Smack yourself in the head and see what comes out. I'm serious, do it. It's what I'd do. One of a few methods.


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Smack yourself in the head and see what comes out. I'm serious, do it. It's what I'd do. One of a few methods.



You must have a lot of bruises on your head then.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

Most of my chapter titles are taken from a phrase in the chapter that describes the overall idea of things....


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Most of my chapter titles are taken from a phrase in the chapter that describes the overall idea of things....



Same here.
But I rarely name chapters in the first place. D:


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2008)

Chee said:


> You must have a lot of bruises on your head then.



My chapter names usually just come to me. Usually under influence of powerful emotions and hypnotic music.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

With all of you do you make sure that there are wins and loses...what I mean is do you make sure that the good guys don't always win in the story. Ultimately the good guys will usually end, even if its not a total win. 

But in a series especially, do you make sure that at the end of some stories the bad guys kind of take home more than the good guys.


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2008)

I do whatever amuses me. At this point I've come to learn there are no good guys or bad guys in my story. Practically all roads lead to fucked up consequences whether today or tomorrow.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

Well there are going to have to be some lines drawn? I mean at least a protagonist. 

I don't make the obvious choices for bad guys, like everyone who would be expected to be a evil can't be, yet, some of the time the good guys have to cross that line. I think that's important in any darker story. I like the characters to question their actions...as well as the reader question what they're doing.


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

I usually make the good guys win, but with a big-ass sacrifice that comes with it. A death of a major protagonist character does the trick.


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2008)

Protagonist, Antagonist. Words, words like any other that can have weight or be as air off your lips. My story is multi perspective. I have people with agendas, sometimes they conflict sometimes they run parallel. Some have seemingly noble goals, some noble intentions but tragic means to the end. You can associate such words with either or.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

In some of my stories the good guys nearly get slaughtered and some of the time I think stories like that make the best read because they actually seem more true to life. But at times its a complete and total win for the good guys too. I think that at different times and when mixed together, the two things can be beautiful.


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

Get your character up a tree, throw rocks at him, and then get him back down. Easy-peasy.


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2008)

Start simple and somewhat noble. But time and the world changes the mind, hardens the heart, scars the body. Then the unthinkable becomes the palatable.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

I kind of have Antagonists that come in stages, some of them hate the protagonists but also share a common enemy with them. Likewise some people who are supposed protagonists actually end up being evil in the end and out for the wrong things. I am really glad that I deal with Angels and Demons, there's a very good mythology to work with and develop. 

I love the idea that Angels are the protectors of mankind, but that some of them resent mankind at the same time for their freedoms. While some of the demons have escaped for their freedoms, but aren't afforded some of the courtesies that mankind has...its a good platform to work with really.


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Start simple and somewhat noble. But time and the world changes the mind, hardens the heart, scars the body. Then the unthinkable becomes the palatable.



You're the kind of writer that writes tragedies huh? xD


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

Angels and Demons  Another one of my writing obsessions, I love them so much I have created a whole universe (earth-666) with a whole explanation of demons, such as demon evolution, abilities and many other things  It took a while, but now I can create multiple stories for that universe that follow the same basic fundamental rules and also allows possible Cameos ^^


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2008)

Chee said:


> You're the kind of writer that writes tragedies huh? xD



Yes indeed. 


As for the above post. I used to have that too. But then I grew out of that phase and decided to be more vague and subtle, not dividing the world beyond between good and evil. a purely neutral world of chaos.


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

@Yu there is no good nor evil line in my story, just because it is a formulated universe doesn't mean its full of chaos, it just that all things line up correctly, so no plot holes


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

Serp said:


> Angels and Demons  Another one of my writing obsessions, I love them so much I have created a whole universe (earth-666) with a whole explanation of demons, such as demon evolution, abilities and many other things  It took a while, but now I can create multiple stories for that universe that follow the same basic fundamental rules and also allows possible Cameos ^^



That's pretty much what my story will become, I am going to create a timeline that starts before the Earth existed (before the universe really) and tell up until present time in the story. The characters, Angels and Demons follow specific rules that are dictated by what they are, but there are also Nephilim, Werewolves, Vampires and other mythological creatures. 

I sometimes wonder if the whole thing got to expansive. But I plan on making several different timelines, like one showing the reign of each Angel of Death, or one for vampire events or something like that. It would be hard to compile everything into one huge timeline, although I plan on keeping a typed up version, with colors to designate different types of events.


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> That's pretty much what my story will become, I am going to create a timeline that starts before the Earth existed (before the universe really) and tell up until present time in the story. The characters, Angels and Demons follow specific rules that are dictated by what they are, but there are also Nephilim, Werewolves, Vampires and other mythological creatures.
> 
> I sometimes wonder if the whole thing got to expansive. But I plan on making several different timelines, like one showing the reign of each Angel of Death, or one for vampire events or something like that. It would be hard to compile everything into one huge timeline, although I plan on keeping a typed up version, with colors to designate different types of events.



Sir I believe we have an understanding  just quickly check this out and tell me we don't think alike.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

It looks like you used a lot of demons from the classification books. nice.


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

Funny enough, most of the shit I made up I did completely from memories and influence from tv, comics and stories, then I cam across the Nephilim which I edited their story into a more scientific version. It was afterwards I actually bought a classification book "The lesser key of solomon" but I don't use it as much, I have broken down most demons into a way that explains who and what they are while making it somewhat all connected


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2008)

I make up all my monsters purely from imagination.


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

90% of my monsters are from my imagination, I only stole teh 7 demonlords, Lilith and Lilim. 
 and Vamps and Weres aswell but in my demon filled world there is a shitload more


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

There are several degrees of Demon classification, I used to own a book about it but it was lost years back. As of now I have one book on the subject of Nephilim and Demons and Angels. Many of my characters are actually Nephilim (Madeleine and Dee, both) and the Nephilim serve as a driving factor in the story much of the time. 

In my continuum there were actually two falls of Angels. The one involving Lucifer where one third of the Angels defected. And the other involving an Angel named Samayaza and about 200 or so Angels who wanted to have relations with Human women. This is where the Nephilim were produced. 

I also have the Four Horsemen (who are just high ranking Angels) in the story, named and disguised as humans. Dee is Death, Isabella is War (Bella being latin for War) and I haven't decided the other two as of yet.


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

@CTK in mine, all demons and angels were born from Lilith but the actions chose what they would be called among humans, whether they cause chaos or prevent it. And in mine only the children and descendants of the angel/demon Lilim were counted as Nephilim and almost every main char in my story is a Nephilim. I also have 3 levels of demons, the first being a Nephilim (human first) or a imp (demon child) and then the Cherubim aka Demon or Angel (a demon that shares human and demon qualities, so either a demon that became more human or a human nephilim that became more demon), or the rarest kind the Seraphim aka Demon Lord or High angel ( the evolved form of a cherubim, they have two true forms, a completely human looking form known as their glamour and then a more battle comfortable form) Its kind of confusing It talks along time for me to explain it but I hope you understand so far ^^



			
				CTK said:
			
		

> We differ on some points, I take a little different approach to the handling
> of Lilith. In my adaption Lilith is the first wife of Adam, an unwilling
> participant in God's plan...she decides to go against her wifely duties and
> strike out in the world alone. It is then that she mates with demons and
> produces human/demon offspring, which would later breed out in the population.


Ahh I might not have shown it clearly enough but my Lilith is basically the same the only difference, was mine was the first demon after mating with Adam.



			
				CTK said:
			
		

> Also, my vampires are without the drawbacks of being demons or effected by
> religious artifacts or the sun, also they have no problem taking a stake to
> the heart. Also Nephilim in my story can be as powerful as an Angel and
> sometimes more powerful, it just depends on the type of Angel and their
> ...


Vampire and Werewolves in my story are much more complicated than other demons as they are technically not demons and are not affected by the sun they share things in common with other demons such as the desire for blood, immortality and strength, but I go into in alot of detail  about the 2 in Lykos Anthropos.

And in my story demons come in many shapes and sizes most are stronger than the average Nephilim but others are weaker, One point in my story was that all demons can cross breed with each other or with Nephilim and also there are anomalous Nephilim who have a boost in demonic powers either but fluke or by being a sub-species nephilim being sired from another demonlord, such as my character Leviticus a nephilim whose demonic blood stems from the Leviathan, with the average nephilim being children of Lilim, and such he is Nephilim but his demonic blood being much stronger last even some demons allows him to kick ass  I hope to elaborate the text I have posted later.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

You seem to have developed a much more complicated system, most of my stuff it just a matter of mixing different mythologies with different things from my own mind. 

Many of the the characters are based on different mythological figures or on other things too, while Dee is not based on any of the traditional visions of Death, she shares many of the qualities seen with the original Death ideals, such as the scythe and the black outfit. 

I see what you mean with Lilith now, although Lilith is one of those subjects from mythology that it can be hard to find much on so I had to make up a lot of what happened and use basic heresay. 

The idea of having different stages, evolutions and the like complicates matters a lot, with my demons and Angels the system of advancement is much more simplistic and kind of rudimentary. With the Angels its a basic idea that you're promoted like at a job. God tells you that you've moved up or down. 

Most of the time it doesn't happen, most Angels stay at the level they're at. I use the basic classifications of Angels like Cherubs, Seraphim and the like. Each has duties and a level of power. As far as the number of wings, it works like Naruto and the Nine-Tails. 

When a Seraphim jumps in power, they first undergo a change in eye color, either to purple or red...they can hold this eye color if they want too. After that, the next jump in power they gain wings...just two, after that its four, and finally six wings. At six wings the Seraphim is basically burning hot with power but they can't stay in that form long without rendering themselves unconscious. Nephilim have less time they can remain in that form. 

With the demons I don't have a power scale in changes, they have wings all the same. But I don't have a scale of change and differentiation between the levels yet.

*Edit:* As for the demon ranks...they move up and down by fighting for position, one can challenge anyone, including Satan, but it comes at a risk.


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

I understand how you have done things, I wish I could make mine as simple, but as alot of my stories intertwine I had to make sure everything was solid, demons and angels are the same, just the angels long ago made a deal with God, he took away their demonic hunger  and weakness to silver and gave them his power in exchange they have to keep balance. ^^ Although a funny thing I have planned, it to have demon twins parallel each other, one has become an angel and ungraded to Seraphim to help the creator, while the other had to become a Seraphim level demon the hard way, so he is not under the control of God with his power, the two brothers still look exactly the same in their glamour (The human form a demons or angel can take to blend in) but in their released form, the angel one wears a holy helmet and has so much more gold look ^^, while the demon one has the exact same posture but just a more rugged wild look. In my world any demon can become an angel if he so wishes.


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

^ I know, thanks for sharing and find better spoilers next time.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

Serp said:


> I understand how you have done things, I wish I could make mine as simple, but as alot of my stories intertwine I had to make sure everything was solid, demons and angels are the same, just the angels long ago made a deal with God, he took away their demonic hunger  and weakness to silver and gave them his power in exchange they have to keep balance. ^^ Although a funny thing I have planned, it to have demon twins parallel each other, one has become an angel and ungraded to Seraphim to help the creator, while the other had to become a Seraphim level demon the hard way, so he is not under the control of God with his power, the two brothers still look exactly the same in their glamour (The human form a demons or angel can take to blend in) but in their released form, the angel one wears a holy helmet and has so much more gold look ^^, while the demon one has the exact same posture but just a more rugged wild look. In my world any demon can become an angel if he so wishes.




Besides the wings and a few other cases I don't have much in the way of uniforms or changes in appearance. No one really has a uniform as far as the demons and angels. Might wears a green leather coat all of the time, as does Dee with her black leather. Madeleine is often wearing brown, green or earth colors; but one of these things a functional. And no armor would offer significant protection from attack. 

My demons are stuck as demons, but a half demon can pick a side pretty much, as can a Nephilim, but they'd technically still be a Nephilim, not a half demon.

And my vampires don't drink Human blood or hurt humans most of the time, if they do they're hunted and assassinated.


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

Hmm, well I just added a second part to that article on Fictionpress, explaining alot more. But in my story, your heritage is just that, you are what you make it, Vampires for example, drink blood for the life force in it (yea kinda overly magic) so it makes sense for the more powerful the life form the stronger the life force in the blood, and humans rank at about average, so unless the vampire needs to be extremely strong it won't drink human blood.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

Serp said:


> Hmm, well I just added a second part to that article on Fictionpress, explaining alot more. But in my story, your heritage is just that, you are what you make it, Vampires for example, drink blood for the life force in it (yea kinda overly magic) so it makes sense for the more powerful the life form the stronger the life force in the blood, and humans rank at about average, so unless the vampire needs to be extremely strong it won't drink human blood.



Well there will be cases of human blood being drank, there are the renegades that do it. And in the first story, a vampire female drinks her human husbands blood so that she can do a spell. (She's actually a witch too). She doesn't kill him, just drinks enough for the spell. 

Also in the story its common for vampires to drink the blood of a human that they're having sex with or romantically involved with. Although the blood they drink normally is cloned blood, so its human, its just artificial. But I have plans for the romantic thing, because one of the Human characters is dating a half vampire--and its inevitable that there might be some biting (I plan to have that be how she gets in trouble with her parents in the end for her actions).


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

Nice CTK, I actually love your way of interpreting vampires, I would love to do so myself, but I can't I have to do everything perfectly 

Like with my werewolves, they actually are part Wolf-demon, only that they are imperfect, so their body is always in a constant state of flux, they can change forms at will but cannot stay in one form too long, as their body tries to balance itself they can't stay in human form all the time so they turn into wolf form, but then the body also finds that form wrong so after a while they need to turn into human form once again. But it also benefits them being able to use attributes from one form while in another, such as strength and senses while in human form, or colour vision and original hair/fur colour in wolf form. Unlike my character Lupis, the first werewolf he can decide to stay in what ever form he likes for however long he likes ^^


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

I haven't even touched on the werewolves yet, I am planning on doing them more in depth when the story about this vampire character my friend made up comes into play. Her name is Claudia and she's a hunter for the Vampire council, she basically kills demons and wayward vampires. She works with a team of two other vampires...I will explore the whole vampire culture more in depth there. 

I like how you handle werewolves though, its a take I've never actually seen. 

My story also uses a bit of the Cthulu mythos and has these Great Old Gods, which are basically the first creatures God made before Humans but after Angels, they were basically like Angels for the most part, but meant to be the dominant life on Earth. They had powers and were basically overly prideful and chose to rebel against God, so he sent the Angels to round them up and imprison them (since having them in Heaven wouldn't be fair and Hell hadn't been created yet).


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

The old Gods seem that they will make for an interesting story, I like to personalize everything too much  
In my werewolf story they met up with some vampires who I'm. planning to make them have the same origin as the Werewolves just over the 1000s of years genetic variation made them into a whole different species, no saying  the werewolves came first, but more like one race split into two with each side gaining different attributes of the original, so later I can introduce my Therianthrope (beast-man), as fundamentally, Vampires can be seen as Chiroptera Anthropos (Bat-man) and Werewolves into Lykos Anthropos (wolf-man) in the basic legends they have a human, turning into an animal or a hybrid of that said animal, so I introduced the Therianthrope class of creatures which include, werewolves and vampires. While the true Therianthrope had the powers of both and attributes of both, yes this is also confusing and I am yet to write up an essay (a good one atleast) explaining the details


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

My vampires don't have any animal like properties and some of the older ones will take offense to being associated with bats. Some are also offended by the other myths about vampires, such as stakes and the like. Also werewolves are a lot rarer than vampires. But there are other things in high supply, such as demons. I actually plan to do a whole story about Hell Hounds or demonic black dogs attacking people (which there are some pretty good historic records of). 

I also have had zombies in the stories from time to time, although not in a major role. But they work much like you common, slow moving, head shot kill zombies.


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

I see, how do I explain this. My vampire have no animalistic properties, its like the original creatures, before the vamps and wolves, had minor such as claws and and things like that but as I said they split into 2 species and over time became different all together, the Vampires remained completely human and lost all beastlike traits, while the werewolves embodied them. As I said its confusing. Ive put hell hounds in my story they are used by the king of France  for evil deeds. 

Like one of my characters, born a human, bitten by a werewolf and then later bitten by one of the only 3 therianthropes in exsistance and thus became the 4th, but thats more confusing stuff.

I myself was never one for Zombies, I find them too bland and not much to work with, and I like to mix things up. 

I had to build this whole universe, as I thought by doing this the stories would come easier and faster and they did, but this universe took ages to build


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

So your world is pretty much like Earth now with supernatural properties? 

I see what you're saying, my vampires look like Humans with the exception of fangs and their eyes. If they get really pissed their eyes blood over and they go into this rage mode sort of thing. 

As far as changing someone goes, the vampire has to bite the person, and then have them drink some blood from the vampire. More experienced vampires can bite the person and change them without the blood drinking part, but its harder and easier to do it the other way.

*Edit:* Zombies aren't good enough for me to do a whole story over, but they make very good lackie enemies, as in the kind you just have there between big things. That's how I use them, and in high numbers they are effective, and their lack of ability to feel pain makes them more so.


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## Tyrael (May 27, 2008)

This place has exploded, woo!



ViolentlyHappy said:


> I've got a question. What would be easier? Creating your characters first or creating the background of your story first?
> 
> I've been leaning towards creating the background first but I already have a couple of characters in mind. I don't want to have to jump back and forth in between the two, or is that just the inevitable?



Both are inexorably meshed in the story and don't exist, clean cut, independently of each other. Often setting will have a character of it's own and all characters have a background. Basically just create what you need to create and it'll all come together from that.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> With all of you do you make sure that there are wins and loses...what I mean is do you make sure that the good guys don't always win in the story. Ultimately the good guys will usually end, even if its not a total win.
> 
> But in a series especially, do you make sure that at the end of some stories the bad guys kind of take home more than the good guys.



The good guys are the ones who win, that's as simple as it is. I would advise you not even to think of good guys vs bad guys, think about it as you're protagonists vs antagonists. And the antagonists def. shouldn't always lose, unless it's a comedy series or aimed at children or something.

Oh and protagonist doesn't need to be synonymous with order and light and goodness and all that. In Paradise Lost the devil is the protagonist.


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

I'm currently doing a werewolf novel...but I ain't touching vampires. In my opinion, vampires that come up in a werewolf novel is overused and frankly vampires don't interest me enough to actually spend my time to create a novel for them alone.
Werewolves FTW. 



Tyrael said:


> This place has exploded, woo!


OSAMA WAS HERE!? 



Tyrael said:


> Both are inexorably meshed in the story and don't exist, clean cut, independently of each other. Often setting will have a character of it's own and all characters have a background. Basically just create what you need to create and it'll all come together from that.



Said it better than I did...I concur.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> This place has exploded, woo!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah but those wacky romantics saw Lucifer as a beacon of freedom...they didn't seem to think about the entire burning pain and hell fire. But anyway, I don't let the antagonists always win, as you might have seen with some of my stories. I kind of like that style of writing and it makes it seem like there's a real sense of danger and some elements of the real world.


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## Batman (May 27, 2008)

I did it. Smack myself in the head really works! 

damn i missed all the spam. I feel left out.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

Batman said:


> I did it. Smack myself in the head really works!
> 
> damn i missed all the spam. I feel left out.



It was a pretty indepth discussion on our stories mechanics, might have gotten out of hand...and then some troll popped in a posted Doug porn *facepalm*.


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2008)

I missed Doug Porn?  Damn.


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## Tyrael (May 27, 2008)

Chee said:


> I'm currently doing a werewolf novel...but I ain't touching vampires. In my opinion, vampires that come up in a werewolf novel is overused and frankly vampires don't interest me enough to actually spend my time to create a novel for them alone.
> Werewolves FTW.
> 
> OSAMA WAS HERE!?
> ...



It's not being able to articulate it, rather, being able to communicate it that is the main thing. So, in that, I am no more than you.

And the thread blew up to the sound of the 1812 overture.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah but those wacky romantics saw Lucifer as a beacon of freedom...they didn't seem to think about the entire burning pain and hell fire. But anyway, I don't let the antagonists always win, as you might have seen with some of my stories. I kind of like that style of writing and it makes it seem like there's a real sense of danger and some elements of the real world.



Most protagonists are seen as beacons of freedom or justice or hope or the sorts. I think even talking about winning and losing is a bit too black/white, although it can be very appropriate in certain situations.



Batman said:


> I did it. Smack myself in the head really works!
> 
> damn i missed all the spam. I feel left out.



Me too, this place is growing for the first time since I started using it.

Edit-Doug porn? Wtf?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

Yeah it was Sally and Roger had a knife to her neck doing her from behind.

But yeah I guess the words I use are a little bit black and white, because there are those characters and situations in my story even that are very ambiguous and the like and there really is no right side, just a matter of perspective.


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## Tyrael (May 27, 2008)

I think within the boundaries of a story black/white can be done very well, it carries around too negative a stigma-it shouldn't necessarily be a signal of weak story telling, although it might be. As long as it works well with the story then it is cool with me.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I think within the boundaries of a story black/white can be done very well, it carries around too negative a stigma-it shouldn't necessarily be a signal of weak story telling, although it might be. As long as it works well with the story then it is cool with me.



I think its best when people at first think things are simple and black and white and its revealed later just how many areas of gray there are.


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

, the troll also posted so quite large anime spoilers 


My universe is so complex, and alot of my novels only touch on one part of it, all of them +more would have to be read in order to fully understand it, it took me 1 and a half years to perfect it  and don't get me started on my first ever manga/novel, four years of precise planning, background, backstories, research, plot and a whole lot of other shit, to make another grand universe.


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## Tyrael (May 27, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I think its best when people at first think things are simple and black and white and its revealed later just how many areas of gray there are.



Ah, the ol' "build up a picture with clear morality before challenging that morality and making the reader then question their view of the world" ploy, it can be brilliant *cough*Legacy of Kain*cough*. Then again less than subtle attempts to make shades of gray can be ridiculously bad (I'm looking at you Goodkind).

And Serp, by universe are we talking about complex politically, socially or scientifically?


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

Oh shit, Doug porn? That exists? 



Tyrael said:


> It's not being able to articulate it, rather, being able to communicate it that is the main thing. So, in that, I am no more than you.



That's true. But so many authors fail at communicating, their all hyped up for writing action scenes instead of doing character/story development. =\


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2008)

The more bad things i hear about Goodkind the more I'm tempted to read. Sounds lulzy.

Either way, I write to my personality. I like to play with structure and my storytelling style is chaos.


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

Rule #34 

Action scenes are quite boring and seeing as my story is based on character development, there isn't that many.

And  yes my universe, is set on earth 100s of years into the future, but everything is changed, I had to invent new geography, new history, new new  so much, four years!!!!!!!! but I fear some parts are still not covered.


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

As long as action scenes are done at the right time and paced right, I don't have a problem with them.
But if a story opens up with a fight, or the aftermath of a fight...its usually bad. =\


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2008)

I have plenty of action scenes. But I also have tons of character development. Most of my drafts have been incredibly dialogue heavy. Other than that, surreal landscapes, lots of surreal landscapes.


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

For my Lykos Saga, the whole theme is humanity and even though they are werewolves it is not centered on that, but centered more on the fact that they are no different from humans and feel the same emotions and stuff that humans do.


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2008)

> A checkered hallway greeted her as she stepped out of her room. The black and white tiles moved around in a spiral up the walls over the ceiling and back to the floor broken up by an occasional window. Walking up the hall felt like being in a fun house, the spiraling tiles took away nearly all depth perception. This is a joke. This has to be a joke. How could anyone live here? The mistress thinks to herself staggering through the hall. A no faced man similar to the one assigned as her attendant raises a top hat in salute as he floats by to god-knows-where. Eventually, Mistress reaches a red door. Through the door is a grand hall with four great white marble staircases ascending to heavens unseen. Really, is this necessary? The Mistress thinks as she looks up to find floating statues between the staircases. But why not? I haven't had a good walk in a while. Mistress casually makes way across the checker tiled  floor up the stairway in the northeast corner of the chamber.
> As she climbs the surroundings change, while the room first had bizarre portraits of cats, it now had a mosaic of a forest over the walls. Even the statues were changing where there once was swimming women they were now statues of a horse-headed men with angel wings. The imagery only served to confuse Mistress as she took them in. Without anything else to do she continued on. After ten minutes of walking there seemed no top to the stairs even stranger the statues started to move with her. Ascending horse headed angels slowly spiraling upward toward heaven. Mistress was beginning to see some kind of twisted metaphor in this but as hard as she tried she couldn't quite ascertain what it was. Time carried on the walls changed again, as did the statues. The heads became human again but this time there lower halves disappeared, their wings turned to blades pointed outward and up toward heaven, their gaze toward heaven though they held no eyes only open mouths.


   
Edit: just noticed quoting takes away inherent italicizing.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

Chee said:


> As long as action scenes are done at the right time and paced right, I don't have a problem with them.
> But if a story opens up with a fight, or the aftermath of a fight...its usually bad. =\



Not so sure about that, some of the time this can be the perfect opening, you just have to choose the right point of the story to open things with. I read about an author saying that he wrote a short and in the last two pages there were two characters added, people were so moved by those two that he actually changed the story and moved the timing back so it started just before they entered...

I've actually opened a few stories with fights and most of them have been well received. The assassination comes to mind. 



Lord Yu said:


> I have plenty of action scenes. But I also have tons of character development. Most of my drafts have been incredibly dialogue heavy. Other than that, surreal landscapes, lots of surreal landscapes.



What's meant by surreal landscapes?


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## Xyfar (May 27, 2008)

Question: In my story I seem to be having more fight scenes then I wanted to when I first started writing it. Is that a good thing or bad thing. As a reader myself, I never really cared how many fight scenes or action scenes there were in a book. I just read them regardless if I enjoyed it. Nonetheless I know readers vary in personality. So, question is do you think the majority would be pushed away, or taken in by fight/action scenes?


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Not so sure about that, some of the time this can be the perfect opening, you just have to choose the right point of the story to open things with. I read about an author saying that he wrote a short and in the last two pages there were two characters added, people were so moved by those two that he actually changed the story and moved the timing back so it started just before they entered...
> 
> I've actually opened a few stories with fights and most of them have been well received. The assassination comes to mind.



That's why I added the word "usually". There's always exceptions.


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

@Chee has you read any of my shit yet, Im about to start chapter 3 of Chains


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

Serp said:


> @Chee has you read any of my shit yet, Im about to start chapter 3 of Chains



Only finished the first chapter of Lykos yesterday. And I sorta started on The Blood in the Stone...that's your profile right? I've been busy reading other people's stories and everyone just sorta jumbled up in my mind.


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> What's meant by surreal landscapes?



*Points to posted excerpt*


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

Yea thats my profile, but all the stories I put up are not where near the final versions and there is a shitload wrong with them 

And back to the humanity issue, what they gonna do when the werewolves find that one member of the pack has started to eat other werewolves and became retard strong


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

Serp said:


> Yea thats my profile, but all the stories I put up are not where near the final versions and there is a shitload wrong with them
> 
> And back to the humanity issue, what they gonna do when the werewolves find that one member of the pack has started to eat other werewolves and became retard strong



Oh yea, I noticed that about Lykos. What's with the numbers? Are they like different chapters that your planning on doing?

Cannibalism?


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2008)

Serp said:


> Yea thats my profile, but all the stories I put up are not where near the final versions and there is a shitload wrong with them
> 
> And back to the humanity issue, what they gonna do when the werewolves find that one member of the pack has started to eat other werewolves and became retard strong



Band together in an unlikely alliance with a rival clan and fight him in a decidedly forced tearjerking and deliciously cliche fight sequence?


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Band together in an unlikely alliance with a rival clan and fight him in a decidedly forced tearjerking and deliciously cliche fight sequence?



Beautiful! I have tears running down my cheeks!


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## Tyrael (May 27, 2008)

Chee said:


> As long as action scenes are done at the right time and paced right, I don't have a problem with them.
> But if a story opens up with a fight, or the aftermath of a fight...its usually bad. =\



Well, now I know where I stand.



Serp said:


> For my Lykos Saga, the whole theme is humanity and even though they are werewolves it is not centered on that, but centered more on the fact that they are no different from humans and feel the same emotions and stuff that humans do.



I like the fact that you have a concurrent theme running through your story, too many people write stories purely for the story (not that that is a bad thing), but you do portray the werewolves in a different light than humans yeah? I'm currently reading _Strata_ and it is interesting the way it is distinctly highlighted that you can't look at everyone as the same way due to innate cultural differences that exist.

And Yu, I liked the imagery in that, although the moment where you talk about the stairs ascending to heaven was ultra-cheesy (perhaps intentionally so). 

And give Goodkind a look, many of our peers despise him but, despite his innumerable failings, I found it an enjoyable read with a few powerful and very good scenes. Truth be told I enjoyed it more than _A Game of Thrones_ (albeit marginally). That said, I'm probably the only person ever to have done so.


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2008)

It was intentionally so.


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## neko-sennin (May 27, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> If you wouldn't mind I could send over another batch of chapters, although if you've got a crazy schedule it might do with postponing.



My schedule can vary greatly from one week to another. Last week was a bad one, this week's pretty light, so if you want to send the rest, feel free, and I'll look it over as I get the chance.



Tyrael said:


> Oh and once I've finished my exams I'll finish the 1st part of Tradewinds.



No prob. Take your time. They're not going to self-destruct or anything. 



Serp said:


> I thought I might as well post the title pictars for my novels ^^



Pretty cool. 



ViolentlyHappy said:


> I've got a question. What would be easier? Creating your characters first or creating the background of your story first?



As the two elements are, on a certain level, inextricable, I would start with whichever comes to mind more readily, characters or background, and let those elements be your guide in putting together the rest. If you get a strong atmosphere, then this will help develop characters that work well within it, and if it's characters that seem to dominate, then they will likely suggest a background and setting that fits with them. With most of my stuff, the background seems to come packaged with the character(s) when the take shape in my mind, but a couple characters gave me a really hard time fitting them to a background rewriting Tradewinds, and the best thing I could do was simply let my character give me a little informal tour of their world.



Batman said:


> How come I still can't think of a chapter title for the last chapter in my book?? It's been like 2 years! :S



Depends on how you name chapters. I usually don't name chapters, just parts, and I usually use places, characters, or sometimes phrases that relate to events. Sometimes references to other things, such as poems, historical events, songs, or obscure terms or phrases can work, too.



Lord Yu said:


> Protagonist, Antagonist. Words, words like any other that can have weight or be as air off your lips. My story is multi perspective. I have people with agendas, sometimes they conflict sometimes they run parallel. Some have seemingly noble goals, some noble intentions but tragic means to the end. You can associate such words with either or.



This is more how most of my stuff evolved. Right now, Tradewinds is focused on Max's perspective, and since he is very idealistic and somewhat naive, that tends to paint the narrative, whereas once the cast starts to expand again, the perspectives become more varied, and the narrative stance often shifts to accommodate the character it's currently following.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> My story also uses a bit of the Cthulu mythos and has these Great Old Gods, which are basically the first creatures God made before Humans but after Angels, they were basically like Angels for the most part, but meant to be the dominant life on Earth. They had powers and were basically overly prideful and chose to rebel against God, so he sent the Angels to round them up and imprison them (since having them in Heaven wouldn't be fair and Hell hadn't been created yet).



Whereas mine doesn't really borrow much from the Mythos' creature trappings, instead it borrows a lot more from its existential cosmology. A world that threatens human ego and sanity with the reality of how small we really are against the true scope of the Universe. The everyday world we're used to just the thin skin on the top of a very deep, dark well, and glimpses of things in those vast depths that challenge human comprehension.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I also have had zombies in the stories from time to time, although not in a major role. But they work much like you common, slow moving, head shot kill zombies.





Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Zombies aren't good enough for me to do a whole story over, but they make very good lackie enemies, as in the kind you just have there between big things. That's how I use them, and in high numbers they are effective, and their lack of ability to feel pain makes them more so.



In all the stuff I've written for Tradewinds, there has only been one instance of my characters having to fight zombie-like enemies, and I have to agree that it's hard to make an entire story revolve around them. Even in the story they appeared in, they weren't the only threat my characters had to face. Then again, a lot can hinge on their origins: supernatural, sci-fi, mind-control, Voodoo, other something else entirely.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Not so sure about that, some of the time this can be the perfect opening, you just have to choose the right point of the story to open things with.



It can vary greatly. If a fight is just a gimmick to generate interest, then it will probably fall flat, whereas if it used to not only introduce key characters, but also important plot or thematic points in the story, it can be used to great effect.



Xyfar said:


> Question: In my story I seem to be having more fight scenes then I wanted to when I first started writing it. Is that a good thing or bad thing. As a reader myself, I never really cared how many fight scenes or action scenes there were in a book. I just read them regardless if I enjoyed it. Nonetheless I know readers vary in personality. So, question is do you think the majority would be pushed away, or taken in by fight/action scenes?



Combat and character development are not mutually exclusive. Personally, I took a lot of inspiration from manga and anime for readily accessible conflicts that are just expression or development of character. In a more action-oriented story, fights can serve as instances where characters either build character, or reveal it. To do this, though, there typically has to be something significant at stake, beyond the character's life, or some trivial conflict, especially if it can become a learning experience for at least one character involved.

A lot of my older work had little character and only bare-bones plot development, mostly just shifting from:

-fight scene
-high-speed chase
-fight scene
-cat & mouse game
-shootout
-fight scene

and so forth. And it wasn't nearly as interesting to read as it was to imagine. A good measure would be look back over it after you have some time and distance, or let someone you trust with it look over it, and try to establish if your fights are detracting from the fight, or if people stay interested. That's about the best measure you can get to whether your action scenes are adding to your story, or getting in the way.


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

Xyfar said:


> Question: In my story I seem to be having more fight scenes then I wanted to when I first started writing it. Is that a good thing or bad thing. As a reader myself, I never really cared how many fight scenes or action scenes there were in a book. I just read them regardless if I enjoyed it. Nonetheless I know readers vary in personality. So, question is do you think the majority would be pushed away, or taken in by fight/action scenes?



Read each fight scene alone. 
Does it have ANY revelence to the progress of your story or characters? If not, cut it out.
Can it be shortened to an verbal argument? If so, change it.
If that fight scene takes up the whole chapter without breaks (give your readers a break from too many things that happen at once!), cut it out or change it.

I think that if you must have a fight scene, save it for the climax/conclusion. Use the rising action to build suspence, character development and plot development so readers will UNDERSTAND why those characters are fighting. Having fight scenes all over the place makes it less interesting and exciting.

Car chases, a small smack on the face or anything like those are good for rising action. But save the big stuff for later.

If you have doubts, cut it out. =\


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

I think you're a little bit too hard on the fight scene, especially when people are out there writing action stories at some times. I average two or three fights in like a story but they aren't large scale and most are pretty broken up and dramatic. The idea of cutting them out doesn't work because they have crucial character development.  I think that being too quick to stick all types of fiction to those rules is a bad thing, and from a readers standpoint, usually a car chase is more boring than a fight, even to read.


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## Tyrael (May 27, 2008)

Fight scenes are like anything, can be done well, can be done badly. It is very much story specific but rigidly avoiding them is as bad as lambasting your readers with them. If you're going to finish a story with a fight, start the book with a fight. Or even use the violence to trigger a turning point. It all depends on the story as I said.


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

^^ Agreed. 
Many times I have read a story where it bombared with action scenes, and frankly it gets old quick. A couple here and there is the perfect amount, so its still kind of "new" to the reader.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I think you're a little bit too hard on the fight scene, especially when people are out there writing action stories at some times. I average two or three fights in like a story but they aren't large scale and most are pretty broken up and dramatic. The idea of cutting them out doesn't work because they have crucial character development.  I think that being too quick to stick all types of fiction to those rules is a bad thing, and from a readers standpoint, usually a car chase is more boring than a fight, even to read.



You gotta be hard on fight scenes that go no where. I'm saying that if your adding a fight scene, just to put action in it with no revelence to the characters or story then you should really considering cutting it.
Those aren't rules, their things that help people become better writers. Mediocre writers are the first ones to write a fight scene in almost every chapter, and they need to learn when its good to cut and when its good to keep.
There are action stories, but they also need a story and character development or people are going to put the book down and say, "Oh...their fighting again? That's nice." And I don't mean exactly a car chase, you can use dramatic explosions, an assassination of someone, the leads up to the big event. Trying to smuggle action scenes and fight scenes everywhere, with no clear line of which is the leading event and which is the climatic event usually leads the story to be boring.
That's just my advice, I think writers should be smart about their writing not just loading it with senseless fights. I'm a toughy, cutting out useless scenes is one of my top priorities in editing.


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## Tyrael (May 27, 2008)

I think CTK was saying you come across as being too strong against the idea of fight scenes, rather than their overuse. Statements like "if you must have a fight scene, save it for the climax/conclusion" is far too overbearing and suggest a general opposition to fight scenes.

Also saying a fight scene can't take up a chapter ignores the idea of really short chapters to reflect the action. In general terms you are right, overusing a scene or a scene with no relevance should not be in the story. But suggesting such is given is not a good reflection on what writing is.


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

Oh, I getcha. I'm not against fight scenes, just their overuse. 

I'll explain each, sorry for the misunderstanding. D:



> Does it have ANY revelence to the progress of your story or characters? If not, cut it out.


If a fight scene is there just to "wow" your readers with blood and violence and not so much with the development of characters, I'd recommend getting rid of it.



> Can it be shortened to an verbal argument? If so, change it.


If your forcing a scene to be a fight scene, when its better off a verbal argument between characters, I'd recommend changing it. Usually verbal arguments give stronger vibes than action.



> If that fight scene takes up the whole chapter without breaks (give your readers a break from too many things that happen at once!), cut it out or change it.


Paragraph after paragraph that sounds like, "He forced his hand into a tight fist and pounded it into his opponent's face" for at least 3,000 words, it gets boring. Fill it up with blood and gore, but readers tend to get bored. Change it (if it has revelence, making it shorter and having a conclusion) or cut it out (if its just for blood and gore).



> I think that if you must have a fight scene, save it for the climax/conclusion. Use the rising action to build suspence, character development and plot development so readers will UNDERSTAND why those characters are fighting. Having fight scenes all over the place makes it less interesting and exciting.


I meant the big kaboodle for the climax and conclusion. Saving the big moment, and leading up to it with smaller action/fight scenes usually does the trick. Explosions, assassinations, a shooting in a building,  jumping to a helicopter on a skyscraper are all good smaller action scenes. But the big one should be saved for a one on one (or anything else that you have decided) between the antagonists and the protagonists.

Matrix is a VERY good example of this (sorry for using a movie example, couldn't think of any books at the moment). They have many fight scenes, that progress the characters and story, establishing Neo's progress and the antagonist's goals. But, they save the big moment for Neo versus the main Agent. They also have many breaks between fight scenes, establishing Neo's love with Trinity and friendship with Morpheous.
The viewers of this film were giving a sample during the rising action, but now they get that whole entree during the climax.

Sorry if I came off a bit too strong, but I do like fight scenes. I just don't care much for the pointless ones that tend to slow down the story, rather than speed it up.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

Basically you're saying don't take the flashy blood and gore or Matrix 2 and 3 approach. Most of my fights have good reason to be there, I never really try to wow or impress the reader with them. I try to keep things in a certain realm of events and not to let the fighting or chasing or any of it run too far out of bounds. But I keep it exciting.


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Basically you're saying don't take the flashy blood and gore or Matrix 2 and 3 approach. Most of my fights have good reason to be there, I never really try to wow or impress the reader with them. I try to keep things in a certain realm of events and not to let the fighting or chasing or any of it run too far out of bounds. But I keep it exciting.



Yup, that's what I'm saying.


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

Chee said:


> Oh yea, I noticed that about Lykos. What's with the numbers? Are they like different chapters that your planning on doing?
> 
> Cannibalism?



lol im not sure what numbers you mean, but my chapters are short so I later am gonna fill them out with details and what not. Ill explain the story plot without saying they are werewolves, the werewolf part is an extra and is not the focus of the story. 

The first one, set in approx 40 B.C shows how problems can arise from heir achy and what, the rise of an opposing army and how the main Lien, has to come to terms with who and what he is and what type of life he can handle living this life, that he was trust into.

Lykos 2, deals with a virus that is spreading throughout the pack, making the members lose their ability to change, which results in withdrawal symptoms and a range of other problems, they have to learn how to live as humans, and become desperate into finding ways to cure themselves. And also have to deal with members finding other undesirable ways to do it.

Lykos 3, Is about Lien in 18th century France, he and his master Lupis, are in search of the artifact that contains the soul of a powerful demon, in this romeo and juilet situation, Lien falls for the Kings daughter and she falls for him, even thou her family lives to kill creatures like him to use for magical purposes, so Liens humanity comes into play can he kill the father of the woman he loves or does his allegiance  to Lupis conquer his morality.

Lykos 4,... that one is secret


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## Tyrael (May 27, 2008)

I got what you meant, it's just that both the points you listed could have been otherwise interpreted and as such needed clarity. Heck, in the words of DB (a rather talented writer who can be seen on occasion around here):

_There is only one rule:

Do Not Bore Thy Reader._

All else is water under the bridge.

And don't worry about triggering an argument, CTK and Yu used to be at each others' throats all the time.


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

^^ I was trying to keep it short and simple, but I guess I should've gone in depth. 



Serp said:


> lol im not sure what numbers you mean, but my chapters are short so I later am gonna fill them out with details and what not. Ill explain the story plot without saying they are werewolves, the werewolf part is an extra and is not the focus of the story.
> 
> The first one, set in approx 40 B.C shows how problems can arise from heir achy and what, the rise of an opposing army and how the main Lien, has to come to terms with who and what he is and what type of life he can handle living this life, that he was trust into.
> 
> ...





> *15. Change*
> 
> In the next week I had been frantically trying to figure out what had happened to my eye...



Those just chapter thingies?


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

Yea very short chapters, half the chapter titles didn't come out but meh


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

Their shorter than mine.


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

Thats because they are more guidelines, I am currently rewriting it all with at least twice as much chapter content


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

Cool beans.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

It's good to see this place this busy if I must say so myself. I love the literature department, it might just be my favorite area of the forum but its just never busy enough to keep up with what I hope it would be. Lately it seems to have been busy enough...its nice.


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2008)

My favorite topic is writing. So I could say the same.


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

Same here. 

New topic to keep it busy?

Trouble with my chapter lengths...their pretty short and I would like them to a be a bit more longer.
I've been thinking about adding more details about the characters, maybe a few lines that foreshadows their past a bit and a couple of lines here and there about their appearence. But I'm worrying that it might slow down the pacing, what do you guys think about overall chapter lengths?


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2008)

For me chapters used to be either about 10-15 pages or 25-26 pages.


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

26 PAGES!?

Yea, that's something I could never do. 
I can manage a maximum of 4 pages and I find it sickening. 

I mean, I have everything _there_ in the chapter, yet its so short. Pisses me off.


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2008)

4 pages doesn't seem like everything there. ELABORATION. Things take time to develop. I think the shortest chapter I had was 9 pages and I really skipped around alot.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

Yeah I have to have shorter chapters, I hate long ones and I don't want my reader to have to read through all of that. So I like to break at a scene if I can so they can stop.


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> 4 pages doesn't seem like everything there. ELABORATION. Things take time to develop. I think the shortest chapter I had was 9 pages and I really skipped around alot.



That's the same feeling I have. I feel like nothing is going on, yet I just plastered a whole bunch of crap in it. D:

Longest chapter I've done is 2,000 words which is right here: 
I'm trying to work on those drafts to make them longer. Add more detail and character motivations I'm guessin'. =\


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

I'm a minimalist, I feel like plenty can happen in a short number of pages, twelve page chapters at the most. I spend more time trying to describe while shortening things up and the like. I could never have a long chapter like that, I have to break things off and the like. Most of my scenes can fill a chapter, so I let them and I usually take away things instead of adding them.


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## Lord Yu (May 27, 2008)

I end a chapter when a chapter ends and not before then. I don't end the chapters the chapters end themselves.


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I'm a minimalist, I feel like plenty can happen in a short number of pages, twelve page chapters at the most. I spend more time trying to describe while shortening things up and the like. I could never have a long chapter like that, I have to break things off and the like. Most of my scenes can fill a chapter, so I let them and I usually take away things instead of adding them.



Same here, but I think my chapters could use more length.

I couldn't imagine sending in 3 chapters of 5,000 words total to a editor/agent for a first impression.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

My chapters end where they need to, its just that I don't write very verbosely. I believe in trying to keep things down and keeping the description to short bursts. I try to keep things moving as fast as I can and rely on short descriptions with words that invoke a certain connotation.  

I would hate to write huge chapters as much as some hate reading them. I have always had a problem with a book has long chapters, its like I want to stop but I hate doing it when the chapter is not over...


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## Chee (May 27, 2008)

I find myself jumping around, writing whatever I want and then piece it together later. You guys do that too? Like write chapter 17 and then go back a bit and write 10?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

I have occasionally written things out of order, but not intentionally, usually its a product of me wanting things in another order and realizing they work better somewhere else. But I do often write two or three stories from the same series at once.


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## Sky is Over (May 27, 2008)

Excuse my interuption or that fact that I might be going alightly off topic, but I'd like to here the ideas of some of your books, people who usually belong to this thread.


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## Koi (May 27, 2008)

Chee said:


> I find myself jumping around, writing whatever I want and then piece it together later. You guys do that too? Like write chapter 17 and then go back a bit and write 10?



*enters discussion* :3

No I do that too.  I don't write in chapters (yet) but I definitely do that.  Like sometimes I have to write an event, or a conversation, or something, out of order, just to get it down, to be better able to relate moments.  To me it also sorta helps with getting some characters down.


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## Batman (May 27, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> For me chapters used to be either about *10-15* pages or 25-26 pages.



This is around the ballpark figure I use. Anything more than that and my stories tend to drag. If I have to split things up in order to do so then so be it.

Back in the day I once wrote a chapter that was something like 44 pages. (insert facepalm here) What the hell was I thinking with that one?



			
				CTK said:
			
		

> I have occasionally written things out of order, but not intentionally, usually its a product of me wanting things in another order and realizing they work better somewhere else. But I do often write two or three stories from the same series at once.


I do that sometimes, but I'm probably not as good as it as you. I sometimes get bothered when certain segments aren't finished and I have and I can't concentrate on the one i'm working on.



			
				Chee said:
			
		

> I find myself jumping around, writing whatever I want and then piece it together later. You guys do that too? Like write chapter 17 and then go back a bit and write 10?


 I did that in the first book because I pretty much already had the story mapped out in my head. If it wasn't as clear, I wouldn't be able to do something like that.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 27, 2008)

Yūhi Kurenai said:


> *enters discussion* :3
> 
> No I do that too.  I don't write in chapters (yet) but I definitely do that.  Like sometimes I have to write an event, or a conversation, or something, out of order, just to get it down, to be better able to relate moments.  To me it also sorta helps with getting some characters down.



Often times I will just write a little short piece to get used to some of the characters before going on to write the big one. But your way kind of makes more sense  



Batman said:


> This is around the ballpark figure I use. Anything more than that and my stories tend to drag. If I have to split things up in order to do so then so be it.
> 
> Back in the day I once wrote a chapter that was something like 44 pages. (insert facepalm here) What the hell was I thinking with that one?
> 
> ...



I'm not really good at it, I guess its hard to be because when I change a fact or event in one story I have to change the events it effected in the others. Having a completed story to work with is one way of avoiding this happening.


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## Serp (May 27, 2008)

at the moment I have very very short chapters each, about a page but I am also ATM fleshing out each one, the initial chapters are more like a flow of events that I can build around.


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## Lord Yu (May 28, 2008)

A page is not a chapter. Jesus, expand people! You can't express anything worthwhile in that amount. I thought I was short-handed.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 28, 2008)

If you can't express anything worthwhile in that space how do you explain the Flash Fiction thing people were so excited about 400 words is very little bit people packed a lot into it. 

You can convey a lot of ideas in very little space, you should read some Charles De Lint, in Onion Girl there are chapters that are like a paragraph. It all depends on the style.


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## Lord Yu (May 28, 2008)

Flash fic is like poetry.


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## Serp (May 28, 2008)

I have just explained that a page in not a chapter, and for the Novels I have encoded into text form, the average length of a chapter was 8 A4 pages. ^^ just thought I should share.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 28, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Flash fic is like poetry.



Poetry isn't usually the same as fiction. Flash fic is a story. A story can come in almost any length the writer is capable of. Depending on style you can have chapters short or long. 



Serp said:


> I have just explained that a page in not a chapter, and for the Novels I have encoded into text form, the average length of a chapter was 8 A4 pages. ^^ just thought I should share.



I usually average 5-10 pages a chapter.


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## Lord Yu (May 28, 2008)

I guess I'm just descriptive.


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## Xyfar (May 28, 2008)

Thank you Chee, Tyrael, and Cardboard. The advice and information is very useful. Seeing that my story has many many characters, and the entire span of the plot is very action-fighting oriented I have to put in fights to progress character development. But it still worries me.

I'm having trouble getting away from fighting though, I've almost... locked myself in a position where I don't have much of a choice. Originality and creativeness is just running short and my brain just is melting as I'm writing my.. (let me count) 9th important fight scene in my novel. 

To really elaborate on my problem, I have about 17 important characters (Dranon, Sarah, Zach, Chaka, Xyfar, Acerbus, Terra, Artek, Raven, Vanelle, Garet, Malem, Rodakon, Vex, Tayris, Fern, and Moison) that must have their fights ect in this book, all which have different Magical Prowess... To show their powers I've been showing them in fights. What I'm getting at is how do I escape this grueling writing factor. Fight scenes are delicate in my opinion and shouldn't just be written recklessly... They require a lot of thought and work... which is giving me major headaches.. 

How should I escape this...? I can't continue this for 5 straight books in this series. (Yes it's a 5 book saga)


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## Tyrael (May 28, 2008)

^With that many characters in something that sounds action orientated I am not surprised as to the number of fight scenes.

Cut characters, show powers in a different way (are the powers even important?). Remember, there is a big difference between a book and an action anime. I think 5 books is a bit ambitious unless you know a lot of the story like the back of your hand.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> If you can't express anything worthwhile in that space how do you explain the Flash Fiction thing people were so excited about 400 words is very little bit people packed a lot into it.
> 
> You can convey a lot of ideas in very little space, you should read some Charles De Lint, in Onion Girl there are chapters that are like a paragraph. It all depends on the style.



You found him, eh? Is he as good as the extracts suggest he is?



Lord Yu said:


> A page is not a chapter. Jesus, expand people! You can't express anything worthwhile in that amount. I thought I was short-handed.



I disagree completely and utterly. There is no bible definition of a chapter in the first place and neither is there a staple rule as to the length of a section. Sometimes short chapters reflect the story, sometimes they introduce key themes, sometimes they further the story as much as needed. As you said, chapters should end themselves, and if they end themselves quickly does it not make sense to leave it at that?

Hell, you don't even need to write in chapters (Terry Pratchett doesn't and that man's writing is brilliant).

Sounds like a lot of people have pacing problems in here though-the hardest thing about sustained writing.


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## Chee (May 28, 2008)

17 important characters? 

I'm using an excerpt for this one. 



			
				Writing Your Screenplay said:
			
		

> The protagonist is the central character of your movie (book). The one driving the film (book in this case). He or she is also our most important doorway into the experience of the movie (book). On some level, the audience (reader) is the protagonist, identifying with this person most closely...
> 
> ...Even if you have a group with a common problem, like being on the Titanic, there should be one character that the audience wants to identify with more than the others. Choose one. Focus on one central character. It puts us on that sinking ship, instead of watching it from a safe distance...
> 
> ...Having no clear protagonist gives the whole script (manuscript) a feeling of being held at arm's length, of looking at it through the wrong end of binoculars. We see what's happening in the story, but we're not in it...



Its a script writing book, but its really helpful. 17 important characters is a lot, maybe you can pull it off cause novels are are bit more detailed then scripts? But usually writers can't. So I'd go with Cynthia, choose a central character first, and use the other 16 to progress with the main protagonist. =\
The shit in parenthesis and underlines are words I added in.


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## neko-sennin (May 28, 2008)

Chee said:


> Trouble with my chapter lengths...their pretty short and I would like them to a be a bit more longer.
> I've been thinking about adding more details about the characters, maybe a few lines that foreshadows their past a bit and a couple of lines here and there about their appearance. But I'm worrying that it might slow down the pacing, what do you guys think about overall chapter lengths?



Depends a lot on what you're writing. There's no hard and fast rule about chapter length, as long as it makes some kind of sense in the context of the story in which it is used. For example, I dug up some of my oldest surviving manuscripts from high school, and did a word count on some of them, and it turns out that my chapters usually ran about 5000 to 10,000+ words per chapter in that story. As opposed to Parts 1 & 2 of Tradewinds running a few hundred to about 2000 words per chapter, and ranging from there to 1000-3000 words per chapter beyond Part 3.

But then again, the "chapters" from the older story contain multiple scenes, so those same parts would have been broken down into 4 or 5 chapters apiece in my current writing style, which basically treats a scene as a chapter. It can also depend a lot on what the chapter features. More characters will add more dialogue and description, as opposed to the more minimalist state of a solitary character, and a more eventful scene will lead to more narrative. About the only real measure I've ever found is the question of whether or not the chapter, as a unit, satisfies its intended purpose in the broader context of the story.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 28, 2008)

Xyfar said:


> Thank you Chee, Tyrael, and Cardboard. The advice and information is very useful. Seeing that my story has many many characters, and the entire span of the plot is very action-fighting oriented I have to put in fights to progress character development. But it still worries me.
> 
> I'm having trouble getting away from fighting though, I've almost... locked myself in a position where I don't have much of a choice. Originality and creativeness is just running short and my brain just is melting as I'm writing my.. (let me count) 9th important fight scene in my novel.
> 
> ...




Seventeen characters? I have more I am pretty sure. If I named them off I would be at least twenty important ones.


Prentiss
Claudia
Pellegri
Dee
Madeleine
Charon
Stroud
Matthew
Rickey
Persephanie
Gwen
Sabrina
Brandon
Heather
Angel
Brian
Melissa
Lucifer
Annel
Edward...
The point is that's just my characters up to now, and even that's skimming, I can by the end of the series come up wit probably about thirty or so important characters. 

That shouldn't mean that there has to be a lot of fights. I trimmed my fighting back alot because some of what I envisioned was too "anime-ish" and not worthy of story or being written. Even now I still have car chases and pretty epic fights, but they're far more spread out. 

My characters also have powers but you have to think of different ways to show that they exist. For instance, the Angel of Might in my story discovers her power while having sex with her husband.

Just make sure that you have things happen in memorable ways. Make sure that its something that sticks with the reader. Also I used to really have your problem, I don't put all seventeen of my characters in one story. I basically split them up and put a few in each story. One, like Heaven Forbid might only have four or five. 

This will also help break up the fighting. But one of the problems we have here is that we're anime fans, and anime fans see a lot of fights in their shows. This doesn't need to be the case in books and sometimes when a fight is described out it just because lame instead of cool because you're reading stuff. 

Seeing someone go super sayin is a hell of a lot more exciting than reading about it. 



Tyrael said:


> You found him, eh? Is he as good as the extracts suggest he is?



Yeah the fucker is really good...I haven't read all that much but the description is rich and deep. On the back there is a line about why he calls the book Onion girl, the line is beautiful. 



Tyrael said:


> I disagree completely and utterly. There is no bible definition of a chapter in the first place and neither is there a staple rule as to the length of a section. Sometimes short chapters reflect the story, sometimes they introduce key themes, sometimes they further the story as much as needed. As you said, chapters should end themselves, and if they end themselves quickly does it not make sense to leave it at that?



That's all I was trying to say earlier, you can't put constraints like that on the writing of others. Hell I write such short books because I have so many to write in general and my style lends itself to to a more shorthanded description. But I get the job done in the end.


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## Tyrael (May 28, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Depends a lot on what you're writing. There's no hard and fast rule about chapter length, as long as it makes some kind of sense in the context of the story in which it is used. For example, I dug up some of my oldest surviving manuscripts from high school, and did a word count on some of them, and it turns out that my chapters usually ran about 5000 to 10,000+ words per chapter in that story. As opposed to Parts 1 & 2 of Tradewinds running a few hundred to about 2000 words per chapter, and ranging from there to 1000-3000 words per chapter beyond Part 3.
> 
> But then again, the "chapters" from the older story contain multiple scenes, so those same parts would have been broken down into 4 or 5 chapters apiece in my current writing style, which basically treats a scene as a chapter. It can also depend a lot on what the chapter features. More characters will add more dialogue and description, as opposed to the more minimalist state of a solitary character, and a more eventful scene will lead to more narrative. *About the only real measure I've ever found is the question of whether or not the chapter, as a unit, satisfies its intended purpose in the broader context of the story.*



Pretty much all that needs to be said.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah the fucker is really good...I haven't read all that much but the description is rich and deep. On the back there is a line about why he calls the book Onion girl, the line is beautiful.



I'm deffo. gonna have to get round to reading one of his books, how'd you get ahold of _Onion Girl_? I've had a hard time finding de Lint's stuff.


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## Chee (May 28, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I'm deffo. gonna have to get round to reading one of his books, how'd you get ahold of _Onion Girl_? I've had a hard time finding de Lint's stuff.



They sell it on amazon.com


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## Tyrael (May 28, 2008)

Chee said:


> They sell it on amazon.com



Pity I live in the UK, and amazon.co.uk has no stock of it as of the moment. You can get an imported version of Angel of Darkness though.


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## Chee (May 28, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Pity I live in the UK, and amazon.co.uk has no stock of it as of the moment. You can get an imported version of Angel of Darkness though.



That sucks. 
Haven't heard about Angel of Darkness though, I'll check it out on amazon.


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## Tyrael (May 28, 2008)

Chee said:


> That sucks.
> Haven't heard about Angel of Darkness though, I'll check it out on amazon.



I read a little extract from that and it blew my mind. It's a bit disturbing, as comes with the horror territory, if that's within your area of interest.


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## Xyfar (May 28, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> ^With that many characters in something that sounds action orientated I am not surprised as to the number of fight scenes.
> 
> Cut characters, show powers in a different way (are the powers even important?). Remember, there is a big difference between a book and an action anime. I think 5 books is a bit ambitious unless you know a lot of the story like the back of your hand.



Well, it may be too anime-esque... I have no idea if it's fit to be a book. The 5 book saga would be necessary because of the plot structure I have. Here's a short summary, the world is in peril because of catastrophic weather phenomena, the 1st book's weather phenomena usually relate to wind related accidents. This is a retaliation of earth's parallel world, Lunap. These two worlds are intertwined, so what happens on Lunap happens to Earth, and vice versa. Humans pollute the planet, so Lunap gets polluted (I elaborate more on how this occurs in the book). Lunap has 5 elemental lords, and only one can be active at a time. Therefore this is the cause of all Earth's chaotic activity. 

So I have 5 books planned, Dranon, the five sages (dranon is part of this group), and the sage supporters have to find a way to calm, or appease the elemental lords so they stop attempting to wipe humanity from the both planets.

I think I use the number five too much in this book though xD.... dunno if that's a bad thing or not.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 29, 2008)

Xyfar said:


> Well, it may be too anime-esque... I have no idea if it's fit to be a book. The 5 book saga would be necessary because of the plot structure I have. Here's a short summary, the world is in peril because of catastrophic weather phenomena, the 1st book's weather phenomena usually relate to wind related accidents. This is a retaliation of earth's parallel world, Lunap. These two worlds are intertwined, so what happens on Lunap happens to Earth, and vice versa. Humans pollute the planet, so Lunap gets polluted (I elaborate more on how this occurs in the book). Lunap has 5 elemental lords, and only one can be active at a time. Therefore this is the cause of all Earth's chaotic activity.
> 
> So I have 5 books planned, Dranon, the five sages (dranon is part of this group), and the sage supporters have to find a way to calm, or appease the elemental lords so they stop attempting to wipe humanity from the both planets.
> 
> I think I use the number five too much in this book though xD.... dunno if that's a bad thing or not.



Well I planed a series from the start, but I tried to break away from anything thats of an anime feel. It was kind of hard...I had to work and really pick my first couple of stories about. As a matter of a fact I still have plotlines inspired by anime.



Tyrael said:


> Pretty much all that needs to be said.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm deffo. gonna have to get round to reading one of his books, how'd you get ahold of _Onion Girl_? I've had a hard time finding de Lint's stuff.



I got it from this store here called Borders, but it was hard to find there. The person had never heard of it.


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## Chee (May 29, 2008)

You'll probably have to ask the nearest bookstore in U.K. to order a copy for ya. I'm sure they'll do it, its business.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 29, 2008)

Well if they have it in their system even.

Oh and I just commissioned another picture last night.


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## Tyrael (May 29, 2008)

Xyfar-Actually the repeating of the number five could work if you decide to make it symbolic or key in the story. It is very hard to cut and change a story that you've been going over for a long time and have grown attached to-I know it well. I would advise showing people you works and if a lot of the share the sentiment that we have then you'll have to make some sacrifices.

CTK-Yeah, we have Borders over here as well. Who's this new pik of?

Chee-That is exactly what I intend to do once I stop being lazy.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 29, 2008)

*@Tyrael: *It's going to be Angel this time and I think that the pose and picture might trump all of the others. Mostly because the picture is going to be such a reflection of her personality.


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## Xyfar (May 29, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Xyfar-Actually the repeating of the number five could work if you decide to make it symbolic or key in the story. It is very hard to cut and change a story that you've been going over for a long time and have grown attached to-I know it well. I would advise showing people you works and if a lot of the share the sentiment that we have then you'll have to make some sacrifices.
> 
> CTK-Yeah, we have Borders over here as well. Who's this new pik of?
> 
> Chee-That is exactly what I intend to do once I stop being lazy.



Well there's 5 elemental affiliations in my story, 5 elemental lords all linked to each element, 5 Sages (Good guys) linked to them, and 5 Scryon Elites (Bad guys) linked to each element. I dunno if that's too repetitive but it ends up working. I also dunno if the number 5 is overused, but I'm willing to try it.


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## neko-sennin (May 29, 2008)

Xyfar said:


> Seeing that my story has many many characters, and the entire span of the plot is very action-fighting oriented I have to put in fights to progress character development. But it still worries me.
> 
> I'm having trouble getting away from fighting though, I've almost... locked myself in a position where I don't have much of a choice. Originality and creativeness is just running short and my brain just is melting as I'm writing my.. (let me count) 9th important fight scene in my novel.
> 
> What I'm getting at is how do I escape this grueling writing factor. Fight scenes are delicate in my opinion and shouldn't just be written recklessly... They require a lot of thought and work... which is giving me major headaches...



Seeing as how I've had a lot of experience dealing with action, including scrapped projects that had a lot more fighting than Tradewinds, I know where you're coming from on this one. First, building on Tyrael's advice, I would try to establish which characters can display their powers without fighting, and what other challenges or obstacles they might be able to use their powers for instead.

After you've established who absolutely _has to_ fight, as part of the plot or character development, I would recommend studying the structure and pacing of anything you've encountered that you think did a good job of juggling a lot of battles. Since your story is very manga/anime informed, I would strongly recommend deconstructing the Chuunin "preliminary" matches from Naruto; even divorced of the "tournament" format, these fights did an excellent job of either establishing or developing established characters while make interesting tactical showcases of their powers and skills. Another one, that doesn't involve the tournament setup, would be the assault on the Court of Pure Souls from Bleach, in which the combat was worked very intricately into a melding of subplots that all tied into a larger storyline. That one also managed to strike a reasonable balance between climactic battles and believable periods of downtime involving other important events, as well shifts in direction and plot twists that keep it from getting _too_ predictable.

Of course, as I have also taken an increasing amount of inspiration from manga, I will also be the first to confess the challenges drawing from something that is primarily graphic in nature, and rendering it in narrative form. You certainly have your work cut out for you in that respect.

The last thing I can think of to say regarding fights, which I'm sure you already know, but I don't think can be emphasized enough for any "action" genre, is make sure as many of the fights as possible are about something more than just the fight itself. Whether it's something bigger than the fight, or something more deeply personal to one or both characters, as there are fights that build character, and fights that reveal it. There's a lot of territory to explore: pride, arrogance, obedience, loyalty (to friends, or to factions), revenge, reconciliation, mutual respect, rivalry, revelation, humiliation... people take up arms seeking, or some cases, unexpectedly _finding_, any and all of these things, and more.


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## Lord Yu (May 29, 2008)

On the subject of fighting, I have fights where logical. Sometimes, fights serve character progression, some just serve as the natural progression of events. When faced with an assassin your not going to sit down for tea and muffins, you're gonna fight.


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## Chee (May 29, 2008)

Getting away from the fight topic for a little bit...anyone else having trouble with writing a hook? Trying to fix up my first chapter, grab in the readers more...but I can't figure out how to write a damn hook...


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## Tyrael (May 29, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> On the subject of fighting, I have fights where logical. Sometimes, fights serve character progression, some just serve as the natural progression of events. When faced with an assassin your not going to sit down for tea and muffins, you're gonna fight.



Or you could run, which would be the most realistic twist I could think of. Hell, I wouldn't enter combat with someone gunning for my life.



Chee said:


> Getting away from the fight topic for a little bit...anyone else having trouble with writing a hook? Trying to fix up my first chapter, grab in the readers more...but I can't figure out how to write a damn hook...



For the first time in my memory I'm the same. Don't focus so much on the hook though, even though it is necessary, as there are plenty of readers who will be hooked by a concept or idea rather than flashy writing. In fact, introduction of a key theme presented philosophically or building up an atmosphere of expectations is what I would recommend.


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## Lord Yu (May 29, 2008)

How do you mean hook?


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## Lord Yu (May 29, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Or you could run, which would be the most realistic twist I could think of. Hell, I wouldn't enter combat with someone gunning for my life.



I'm talking fight or die situations here. The ones where flight is not an option. Hell, one of my characters is a soldier. Fighting is his business.


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## Tyrael (May 29, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> How do you mean hook?



A piece of action/foreshadowing/etc. that engages your reader. Basically giving the reader, almost immediately, a reason for them to continue reading. Basically something that _Garden of the Moon_ is lacking.

edit-Many people are as likely to plead or curl up in a ball if there is no way out. It all depends on character typing.


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## Lord Yu (May 29, 2008)

I know that. I was talking in regards to Chee's story.


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## Chee (May 29, 2008)

Well, since I'm writing about werewolves, I'd like to open with something "interesting" but yet still very different from other werewolf novels.  My current chapter ain't working for me, and its mostly just the overall first sentence. The rest can be changed easily. =\

First chapter is introducing one of the main characters, the "care taker" type of character, he is a werewolf with a troubling past. I don't want to open with him _being_ a werewolf, I want to open with him being a human. But the thing is, the way I wanna do it, its really hard to get a good first sentence/paragraph outta it.


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## Tyrael (May 29, 2008)

Chee said:


> Well, since I'm writing about werewolves, I'd like to open with something "interesting" but yet still very different from other werewolf novels.  My current chapter ain't working for me, and its mostly just the overall first sentence. The rest can be changed easily. =\
> 
> First chapter is introducing one of the main characters, the "care taker" type of character, he is a werewolf with a troubling past. I don't want to open with him _being_ a werewolf, I want to open with him being a human. But the thing is, the way I wanna do it, its really hard to get a good first sentence/paragraph outta it.



Make a clean-cut reference to him becoming a werewolf in the future then ignore that fact for the rest of the chapter-it's a fairly standard way to plant expectation and if you do it rightly you won't fulfill that expectation long enough for them to become engaged. 'Tis what I'd do at least.


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## Chee (May 29, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Make a clean-cut reference to him becoming a werewolf in the future then ignore that fact for the rest of the chapter-it's a fairly standard way to plant expectation and if you do it rightly you won't fulfill that expectation long enough for them to become engaged. 'Tis what I'd do at least.



Wouldn't that be a crook? Getting your readers hopes up and then crashing it down for something not "werewolfish"? 

But I think I know what you mean, but I think it should be done later in the chapter but not as the first sentence. =\


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## Serp (May 29, 2008)

Hello guys  . In my stories I usually start by giving a brief description of the characters and their personality, I also think I am missing a good hook . 

And my story opens up with my character being a werewolf but upset about human problems such as friends, and even a little description on anthropology and the original werewolf ( combining the theme of human and lupine together)


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## Tyrael (May 29, 2008)

Chee said:


> Wouldn't that be a crook? Getting your readers hopes up and then crashing it down for something not "werewolfish"?
> 
> But I think I know what you mean, but I think it should be done later in the chapter but not as the first sentence. =\



The werewolfiness is coming, it's not like your setting up false pretenses. The idea is that the time while he is human is building up to it right? 

For example, _The Dark Tower_ series:



> The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed.



A brilliant start, you want to find out why he is chasing the man in black, but you have to wait the whole book for an explanation.

Of course I'm not suggesting doing this exactly, but that's the basic mechanics of a hook, introducing something enough to capture your readers' interest but holding back enough to keep them reading. Of course, 'tis your story, if you're not comfortable with it forget this suggestion.

Edit-Actually, I've always wondered Serp, what is the definition of anthropology?


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## Chee (May 29, 2008)

^^ Ah, I get it. I might just try that out.

Serp: I like that little bit of description of anthropology in your story, I think that would work great as a hook. If I was you, I'd leave only a single sentence about anthropology (linking it to the rest of the story) and then cut to your main character doing something "odd" and "unique" that would capture the reader's attention to read further in.


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## Serp (May 29, 2008)

@Chee, I might do that, ive been thinking of ways to re-write the first part, but have't had any ideas. 

@Yu, That fact was why it was more human, as he lives in a pack surrounded by people that treat him as if he were family, yet he feels lonely and discontent. 

I feeling I would say that humans over wolves would have, being surrounded but still feeling alone.


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## Tyrael (May 29, 2008)

You two both have fiction press accounts yeah?


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## Lord Yu (May 29, 2008)

I do not...


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## Serp (May 29, 2008)

I do , PM me if you would like it, im not posting it here as  well spammers.


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## Tyrael (May 29, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I do not...



Lol, I should have made that more clear, I meant Chee and Serp. Are you rewriting your story at the moment?


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## Lord Yu (May 29, 2008)

I've been rewriting it for awhile now. I've hit eleven and a half pages.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 29, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm talking fight or die situations here. The ones where flight is not an option. Hell, one of my characters is a soldier. Fighting is his business.



Even then its not always true that they have to fight. Look at the book Jarhead, its about soldiers yet they really never fought. I try to keep my fighting to a minimum even when the occasion calls for it. Flashy fights are really hard to do and most of the time they seem to look silly. Even then I have to illustrate the sheer power of some of the characters. Sometimes this is during a fight, other times its another event. 

While I don't like to put a limit on the number of fights, I wouldn't want to have fights breaking out right and left. There usually is some action and chasing and the like. 




Serp said:


> Hello guys  . In my stories I usually start by giving a brief description of the characters and their personality, I also think I am missing a good hook .
> 
> And my story opens up with my character being a werewolf but upset about human problems such as friends, and even a little description on anthropology and the original werewolf ( combining the theme of human and lupine together)



I try to just start the story and let the details get intermingled either, I think its a bad idea to let the beginning get bogged down with description.


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## Lord Yu (May 29, 2008)

I've seen the Jarhead movie. Not a shot fired in combat. I'd say I do fights pretty well. Fighting is part of the human experience. Sometimes flashy, sometimes brutal, I enjoy a good brawl. I put in fighting when it's necessary. My story is heavy on violence. I don't like to shy away on that stuff.


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## Chee (May 29, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> You two both have fiction press accounts yeah?



Yeah. 

But I'm not putting the full story on there nor the final draft version.


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## Batman (May 29, 2008)

Chee said:


> Getting away from the fight topic for a little bit...anyone else having trouble with writing a hook? Trying to fix up my first chapter, grab in the readers more...but I can't figure out how to write a damn hook...



As far as the hook goes. I know in my mind what I want to tell the reader. Then I tell them as little as possible and it sort of develops naturally.



			
				Lord Yu said:
			
		

> I've seen the Jarhead movie. Not a shot fired in combat. I'd say I do fights pretty well. Fighting is part of the human experience. Sometimes flashy, sometimes brutal, I enjoy a good brawl. I put in fighting when it's necessary. My story is heavy on violence. I don't like to shy away on that stuff.


I tend to subscribe to the western style of story telling philosophy, but not to such an extreme. I feel that action should be earned or its just as boring as anything else. I suppose that makes me a minimalist in those turns. But there are times . . .


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## Lord Yu (May 29, 2008)

I guess I'm just an ultra-violent cowboy.


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## Batman (May 29, 2008)

Steven Segal in spurs ^


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## Chee (May 29, 2008)

Unless its an action novel, I tend to keep fight scenes to a minimum.

A good punch or two and some yelling floats my boat.


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## Tyrael (May 30, 2008)

I thought we had moved away from this.

Violence=good if used right, that's the long and short of it in my eyes.


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## Lord Yu (May 30, 2008)

I like talking violence. Morbid and bloody, slow and sexual, fast and brutal.


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## Chee (May 30, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I thought we had moved away from this.
> 
> Violence=good if used right, that's the long and short of it in my eyes.



Me too, but I guess the subject popped up again. 

I've been thinking about adding drugs, sex and alcohol usage of minors in my story. Just to establish how bad the main character is in the shitter. Would you guys be turned off by that in the beginning of the story, with some clear hints that she will change though? 
Myself, I hate when stories use drugs and alcohol just for the shock-value. But I'm planning on making her do a complete 360, with a clear "no-no" on the drugs though.


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## Tyrael (May 30, 2008)

Chee said:


> Me too, but I guess the subject popped up again.
> 
> I've been thinking about adding drugs, sex and alcohol usage of minors in my story. Just to establish how bad the main character is in the shitter. Would you guys be turned off by that in the beginning of the story, with some clear hints that she will change though?
> Myself, I hate when stories use drugs and alcohol just for the shock-value. But I'm planning on making her do a complete 360, with a clear "no-no" on the drugs though.



If it adds value I guess I wouldn't be overly offended-you need to think about the type of story you are writing and your audience. Think hard about the logistics of something like this and the psychological/social impact. The problem is such things come with such huge baggage they can easily take over the story, but if you can deal with all that then it's not something you should purposely avoid.


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## Chee (May 30, 2008)

Older audience of course, I can't stand writing T for Teen shit. Too censored. xD
But I agree with you. Its a big topic that can really effect the story just from a simple sentence. So I think I'll leave it drugless for awhile, adding it later in the story when I feel like I can take on the topic. =\

I really wanna show Mary's (main character) lack of hope in changing herself and her situation and how she resulted in hanging around a bad crowd and ultimately making the wrong desicions. But I also want to keep a consistant theme throughout the story, and being sober isn't one of the biggies. xD

Bah, I probably won't add it. I'm too uncomfortable around the topic and it will probably show.


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## Tyrael (May 30, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I like talking violence. Morbid and bloody, slow and sexual, fast and brutal.



Lol, it's just occurred to me that Shakespeare was an fight addict so it can't be all bad.



Chee said:


> Older audience of course, I can't stand writing T for Teen shit. Too censored. xD
> But I agree with you. Its a big topic that can really effect the story just from a simple sentence. So I think I'll leave it drugless for awhile, adding it later in the story when I feel like I can take on the topic. =\
> 
> I really wanna show Mary's (main character) lack of hope in changing herself and her situation and how she resulted in hanging around a bad crowd and ultimately making the wrong desicions. But I also want to keep a consistant theme throughout the story, and being sober isn't one of the biggies. xD
> ...



That's fair enough.


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## Serp (May 30, 2008)

Drugs  In part 4 of Lykos set in the modern day, only that the world is so much more fucked, crack, rape and drunks everywhere  Im using it as a factor to show how now in this world, the people known as inhuman beasts are infact more human and more humane than the humans of today, so what again is human.  Yes I know its risky but meh, I do what I want.


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## Chee (May 30, 2008)

^^ That's very risky. You can turn off a whole audience with that.


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## Tyrael (May 30, 2008)

Serp said:


> Drugs  In part 4 of Lykos set in the modern day, only that the world is so much more fucked, crack, rape and drunks everywhere  Im using it as a factor to show how now in this world, the people known as inhuman beasts are infact more human and more humane than the humans of today, so what again is human.  Yes I know its risky but meh, I do what I want.



It's not so much the risk of alienating audiences. it's more that it sounds slightly flippant and for the hell of it and, whilst I love the idea of questioning what is human, it almost seems to be that way due to cliche more than anything. That said, you are interested in sociology and hopefully that means you'll do it properly. I've just seen too much post-apocalyptic fiction that is wrecked and ruined just because.


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## Serp (May 30, 2008)

To clarify its not a post-apocalyptic future, its more of the kinda of world you see in GTA . Basically imagine someone who comes from a time and place were everything was so different, where everyone cared for each other and fighting was more of a last resort and then fast forward to this time and see how he sees how the world has changed  need I say more. Bare in mind that is only the theme and really doesn't interfere with the plot.


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## Tyrael (May 30, 2008)

Serp said:


> To clarify its not a post-apocalyptic future, its more of the kinda of world you see in GTA . Basically imagine someone who comes from a time and place were everything was so different, where everyone cared for each other and fighting was more of a last resort and then fast forward to this time and see how he sees how the world has changed  need I say more. Bare in mind that is only the theme and really doesn't interfere with the plot.



An interesting concept, but if it's the theme shouldn't it be what the plot is about? That said I suspect it is and this is just another break down in our communication. I might be a bit slow tonight.


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## Serp (May 30, 2008)

Yes it plays a part in the plot as to how my main interacts with things, but the main focus of the plot is not the fucked up world. I still am really bad at explaining this stuff.


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## Chee (May 30, 2008)

I think that would be better off very subtle. Subtley explain that the world is "fucked" now. xD


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## Serp (May 30, 2008)

Of course im not gonna exaggerate it, im gonna slowly illuminate how things have changed over such a long period and not always for the best.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 30, 2008)

I really think that its kind of hard to put all of that stuff in the story and keep the focus from shifting at least a little. You see you have to include something that's not directly part of the main plot, but it relates to theme. Now you have to make sure not to make people get the idea that its just there for no reason. 

While making sure that its noticed, but not taking over the story. At the same time, you still have to make it relevant. Very hard and a very fine balance you have to go for. 

I have had a few drug references, very light ones normally, or ones to law enforcement against drugs. But I don't care to write about it because the idea never occurred to me. And supernatural stories with drugs...I just keep thinking back to Buffy Season six and they're analogy that magic in the show was addictive and like a drug--it came off as stupid and it kind of scarred me in that way. 

Even then I have some stuff that could be considered iffy, underaged people in relationships with adults, one of my characters is a sex addict, one character is a victim of rape who murdered the guy later, there's a lot of smoking, and there's an underlaying theme that one of the characters is the kind of FBI Agent that thinks the end justifies the means more times than not.


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## Lord Yu (May 30, 2008)

I have one character who smokes cigarettes. He's that soldier character I mentioned earlier. Cigarettes calmed him on the battlefield and now people try to get him to quit. I may have drugs in my story later but those aren't important. As I'm sure you've come to know, I'm not one to step lightly around things. In the later part of the story I have a character who's a whore and drugs and whores go practically hand and hand. Since I have never written that far let me see how this plays out. I don't have any temptations to go anywhere with the subject of drug addiction. But nicotine addiction is something I'm quite familiar with.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 31, 2008)

Well a few of mine smoke and really I don't think that I will be having them quit. Like I said besides references I don't think that I will have much to do drugs. I struggled long and hard with the sex thing, I wasn't sure if I wanted to be one of those authors who included sex into the whole thing, I think its just a big story changing decision and the like and once you go there it can stick with the reader.


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## neko-sennin (May 31, 2008)

I think this is one of those things where personal experience comes into play. Personally, aside from a few old friends who liked to hit the bong on Friday nights, I have little experience with drugs, and have spent most of my life seeking to avoid becoming entangled with people with substance-abuse problems, for my own peace of mind. Thus, it doesn't really come naturally in my work, so it doesn't really come up. That, and I can't help thinking that anything I tried to write on the subject would just sound like a bunch of hollow platitudes. As for sex, I've never had much of an interest or aptitude for writing stuff of an erotic nature, so I tend to stick with letting people read between the lines in that aspect of relationships, and leave the details to readers' imaginations.

The only adage I can think of for these sorts of matters is "Write what you know." The imagination can build vast landscapes and fill in a lot blanks in fantasy worlds, but it takes a working knowledge of human psychology and emotional realism to write about more personal aspects of characters, and thus some people often find themselves better informed to write about some facets of the human condition than others.


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## Lord Yu (May 31, 2008)

I put to paper what I pull from my imagination. I had a father and grandfather who were smokers. Many a day I saw clouds of smoke hang in the air. Cigarettes I know. Sex, truthfully not so much, but whatever it's not like I'm doing literotica here. I put in what I feel is needed.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 31, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> I think this is one of those things where personal experience comes into play. Personally, aside from a few old friends who liked to hit the bong on Friday nights, I have little experience with drugs, and have spent most of my life seeking to avoid becoming entangled with people with substance-abuse problems, for my own peace of mind. Thus, it doesn't really come naturally in my work, so it doesn't really come up. That, and I can't help thinking that anything I tried to write on the subject would just sound like a bunch of hollow platitudes. As for sex, I've never had much of an interest or aptitude for writing stuff of an erotic nature, so I tend to stick with letting people read between the lines in that aspect of relationships, and leave the details to readers' imaginations.
> 
> The only adage I can think of for these sorts of matters is "Write what you know." The imagination can build vast landscapes and fill in a lot blanks in fantasy worlds, but it takes a working knowledge of human psychology and emotional realism to write about more personal aspects of characters, and thus some people often find themselves better informed to write about some facets of the human condition than others.



I don't think I will ever go into great detail about sex, such as naming parts and the like. But I have drawn some of the similarities between sexual and erotic relationships and aspects of vampirism. Also I have worked at making some of the relationships seem as Human and real as possible. I am working with a number of married couples, some long term relationships and one of the relationships I am most concerned about, a friendship budding into something more. 

I am trying my best to show these two young adults going through a transition from best friends to lovers (which is probably a better term than anything else). I at first (when I was a little more naive) made things change for the Hell of it. Later on, I decided to attribute it to the stress of the things that are happening around them. The whole world falling apart, the War between Heaven and Hell and their parts in it, her mother's illness and coma and so on. 

There's a lot of emotional wounds that need can be licked here and it could start out them innocently comforting each other and move to them having sex (which it does). 

What I am trying to say here is that its probably better that the more controversial the issue, the more you should tie it to the central plot. If there isn't a reason you are doing it, find one that seems secure and latch it on. If it can't fit then maybe it's just fluff. Have you ever read a review with a line to the effect of "there was a sexual relationship that had no place or purpose..." that's the same thing that can be said for drugs, sex, violence any of it. Even my character's smoking is said in the first story on the first page to be a thing he does in anger to calm his nerves. 

I also think its best not to write to an archetype too much either.


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## Serp (May 31, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> The only adage I can think of for these sorts of matters is "Write what you know." The imagination can build vast landscapes and fill in a lot blanks in fantasy worlds, but it takes a working knowledge of human psychology and emotional realism to write about more personal aspects of characters, and thus some people often find themselves better informed to write about some facets of the human condition than others.



I agree with this completely, write what you know. I myself am a psychology student continuing onto anthropology and have done plenty research into both, and I like to write with the knowledge I have gained.


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## Tyrael (May 31, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> I think this is one of those things where personal experience comes into play. Personally, aside from a few old friends who liked to hit the bong on Friday nights, I have little experience with drugs, and have spent most of my life seeking to avoid becoming entangled with people with substance-abuse problems, for my own peace of mind. Thus, it doesn't really come naturally in my work, so it doesn't really come up. That, and I can't help thinking that anything I tried to write on the subject would just sound like a bunch of hollow platitudes. As for sex, I've never had much of an interest or aptitude for writing stuff of an erotic nature, so I tend to stick with letting people read between the lines in that aspect of relationships, and leave the details to readers' imaginations.
> 
> The only adage I can think of for these sorts of matters is "Write what you know." The imagination can build vast landscapes and fill in a lot blanks in fantasy worlds, but it takes a working knowledge of human psychology and emotional realism to write about more personal aspects of characters, and thus some people often find themselves better informed to write about some facets of the human condition than others.



Once again Neko, you come into an argument before me and say all I wanted to say, thus rendering my opinion obsolete.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 31, 2008)

By that same right you can do loads of research and come up with several ares where you have decent knowledge and thus become better at writing about. But one thing I like to say as just a pointer, because as a reader it annoys me. When you have knowledge of something, try not to just force it in there just to show off. 

Well since we have talked about it in the past, about or tools and all of that good stuff. I am building a little bit of a writer work station and starting to do things such as use sticky notes and index cards to not things down and file important ideas away. A while ago I took pictures of my writing area I would like to share.


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## Serp (May 31, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> By that same right you can do loads of research and come up with several ares where you have decent knowledge and thus become better at writing about. But one thing I like to say as just a pointer, because as a reader it annoys me. When you have knowledge of something, try not to just force it in there just to show off.
> 
> Well since we have talked about it in the past, about or tools and all of that good stuff. I am building a little bit of a writer work station and starting to do things such as use sticky notes and index cards to not things down and file important ideas away. A while ago I took pictures of my writing area I would like to share.



I am not trying to force anything, and psychology and anthropology are some of those things that you can't really force but more express through character development, and yes through loads of research you could gain lots of knowledge, but I study as actually school subjects rather than a project 

And Btw thats a nice little set up you got there, mine either consists of my laptop in my room or my desktop downstairs. ^^


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## Tyrael (May 31, 2008)

Mine consists of unsheathed anarchy, as sporadic as the very niches in logic that are the sum of humanity.

Also I have a headache.


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## Batman (May 31, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> By that same right you can do loads of research and come up with several ares where you have decent knowledge and thus become better at writing about. But one thing I like to say as just a pointer, because as a reader it annoys me. When you have knowledge of something, try not to just force it in there just to show off.
> 
> Well since we have talked about it in the past, about or tools and all of that good stuff. I am building a little bit of a writer work station and starting to do things such as use sticky notes and index cards to not things down and file important ideas away. A while ago I took pictures of my writing area I would like to share.


I'm jealous of your maps. And your McDonalds BBQ sauce.


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## Tyrael (May 31, 2008)

Batman said:


> I'm jealous of your maps. And your McDonalds BBQ sauce.



And I'm jealous of your ability to spot McDonalds BBQ sauce at that range.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 31, 2008)

Glad you guys are having fun talking about my food choices there 

Oh here's the finished view of that Angel picture.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 1, 2008)

I actually quite like that pic.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 1, 2008)

Thanks, out of all the ones I have had done I think this one came out to be one of the best. And as a portrayal of the character it works more than the others.


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## Serp (Jun 1, 2008)

I like that one , but personally prefer the one in your sig.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 1, 2008)

I like the one in my signature better, but the new one is a better fit to the character portrayed.


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## Serp (Jun 1, 2008)

Fair enough ^^, they are still both very beautiful.


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## Batman (Jun 1, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Glad you guys are having fun talking about my food choices there
> 
> Oh here's the finished view of that Angel picture.



That's quite good. I haven't drawn anything by hand in ages. Everytime I set out to do some character profiles I get distracted and ending up doing more writing than drawing.


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## Tyrael (Jun 1, 2008)

Batman said:


> That's quite good. I haven't drawn anything by hand in ages. Everytime I set out to do some character profiles I get distracted and ending up doing more writing than drawing.



Distracting yourself with writing? Wish I was like that at the mo. gettin' pen to paper (metaphorically) is rather hard.

And, oddly enough, I preferred that pic when it was not coloured CTK.


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## Batman (Jun 1, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Distracting yourself with writing? Wish I was like that at the mo. gettin' pen to paper (metaphorically) is rather hard.
> 
> And, oddly enough, I preferred that pic when it was not coloured CTK.



lol I can't help it, the brain just keeps running. But it took me years to develop a habit like that. I used to draw over everything, all my notebooks, and such, but not there's writings everywhere. Well not everywhere, somehow I'm a tad organized.

nice second chapter by the way


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## Tyrael (Jun 1, 2008)

Batman said:


> lol I can't help it, the brain just keeps running. But it took me years to develop a habit like that. I used to draw over everything, all my notebooks, and such, but not there's writings everywhere. Well not everywhere, somehow I'm a tad organized.
> 
> nice second chapter by the way



I'd better get my head down myself.

Oh and there's been very little in the way of feedback on the second chapter, should I take it that people like it and have nothing to add or dislike it so much it is not worthy commenting on.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 1, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Distracting yourself with writing? Wish I was like that at the mo. gettin' pen to paper (metaphorically) is rather hard.
> 
> And, oddly enough, I preferred that pic when it was not coloured CTK.



Hm really? Well there is a lineart that she gave me.


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## Serp (Jun 1, 2008)

That lineart and blue focus I personally prefer ^^


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 1, 2008)

I actually kind of like the line art better, but its hard to convey sexuality in a character with out going over board, I hope that comes through here.


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## Serp (Jun 1, 2008)

Anything in a colour focus firstly looks awesome and secondly you can decide which parts should be concentrated on with seeming too forward.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 1, 2008)

All right now. I think I'm getting the hang of this.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 2, 2008)

Now that I have that done I can get to chapter three of story five. I actually have planned out some of the story. The basic idea is the kids, in this case the kids from the other stories are trapped in an alternate dimension by two other characters and made to complete these trials while reliving the memories of their past and their families' pasts.


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## Batman (Jun 2, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I'd better get my head down myself.
> 
> Oh and there's been very little in the way of feedback on the second chapter, should I take it that people like it and have nothing to add or dislike it so much it is not worthy commenting on.



I really liked it. I didn't know you were expecting feedback with the novella process. I hadn't planned on it. I thought we were just going to see the idea progressed and see what it turned into, like a game of telephone.

But if you want a critical read, let me know.


Someone tell me why its taking me like 4 days to write my latest chapter. The last time it took me this long to do a single chapter it ended up pretty damn good. This time its the equivalent of failure, like there's nothing spectacular in it. I suppose that's my brains way of telling me to take a short break, but dammnit I hate breaks.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 2, 2008)

A thread for writers? Clearly I haven't been paying enough attention to this forum.

Greetings all, greetings, another aspiring writer, right here.

Are we allowed to post our work in this forum, or just small pieces in this thread, or what?


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## Tyrael (Jun 2, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I actually kind of like the line art better, but its hard to convey sexuality in a character with out going over board, I hope that comes through here.



Def. prefer line art, the sexuality comes through more, if anything.



Lord Yu said:


> All right now. I think I'm getting the hang of this.



After close to 14 000 posts I woulda hoped you'd have learned how that function works. :los



Batman said:


> I really liked it. I didn't know you were expecting feedback with the novella process. I hadn't planned on it. I thought we were just going to see the idea progressed and see what it turned into, like a game of telephone.
> 
> But if you want a critical read, let me know.
> 
> Someone tell me why its taking me like 4 days to write my latest chapter. The last time it took me this long to do a single chapter it ended up pretty damn good. This time its the equivalent of failure, like there's nothing spectacular in it. I suppose that's my brains way of telling me to take a short break, but dammnit I hate breaks.



I was expecting a stampede of people highlighting my multiple failings in writing and scolding me for the abundance of cliches present. I guess that I might be a bit hard on it though...

And your writing speed always knocks my head off. That said, my recent inactivity has been dying and I'm averaging a 1000 words a day, which means that my short chapters will be finished in another couple of days.



Taurus Versant said:


> A thread for writers? Clearly I haven't been paying enough attention to this forum.
> 
> Greetings all, greetings, another aspiring writer, right here.
> 
> Are we allowed to post our work in this forum, or just small pieces in this thread, or what?



Just about anything you want. Most work, unless short, would be best making another thread for it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 2, 2008)

I did get some writing done last night, had a talk with a friend about sexuality in writing, this is where all of that stuff I sad before becomes important. The world the characters are trapped has the power to lift the thoughts from the heads of the people there and display them or let people live memories.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 2, 2008)

I was talking about writing coherently. I'm finally feeling proud of my work. Which means I'm doing it wrong. Nevermind, time to scrap these 13 pages.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 2, 2008)

So you're going to scrap it because you like it?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 2, 2008)

If you are satisfied with you're work you're doing it wrong. A good artist is never satisfied. Well, I could wait till I'm at page 180. There are a few things that could be adjusted. Yes, here and here...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 2, 2008)

If you took that route you'd be stuck on the same story for ever, you have to know where satisfaction is at the level that's closest to what you can do at the time I guess. I scrap things I absolutely hate, if I feel like its right, or right enough I leave it maybe let it at least sit before I start picking at it again. 

I have stopped actually deleting stuff and just started moving it somewhere else so that I can come back to it later maybe see something there I can use.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 2, 2008)

Read between the lines. I merely jest.


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## Batman (Jun 2, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I was talking about writing coherently. I'm finally feeling proud of my work. Which means I'm doing it wrong. Nevermind, time to scrap these 13 pages.



That made me lol.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 2, 2008)

I was kind of confused when I read it.


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## Tyrael (Jun 2, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> If you are satisfied with you're work you're doing it wrong. A good artist is never satisfied. Well, I could wait till I'm at page 180. There are a few things that could be adjusted. Yes, here and here...



To a certain degree I agree-if you look at something of yours and see no way to improve it then there is something wrong with your approach to writing 'cause there is no such thing as perfection. I realise you were mainly joking but I've decided to tackle it seriously anyway.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> If you took that route you'd be stuck on the same story for ever, you have to know where satisfaction is at the level that's closest to what you can do at the time I guess. I scrap things I absolutely hate, if I feel like its right, or right enough I leave it maybe let it at least sit before I start picking at it again.
> 
> I have stopped actually deleting stuff and just started moving it somewhere else so that I can come back to it later maybe see something there I can use.



I am against deleting stuff but that is individual to the author I guess. I am the type of person who hates to throw out things that still have potential-yet letting them become an anarchic mess.


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## Serp (Jun 2, 2008)

Fuck I,m have a problem, what do you guys do when a new story hits you but you already have alot of projects and starting a new would just be too many.


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## Tyrael (Jun 2, 2008)

Serp said:


> Fuck I,m have a problem, what do you guys do when a new story hits you but you already have alot of projects and starting a new would just be too many.



Start it anyway and put another project on the back burner or scrap it. You have to remember that not every one of your stories will end up in success.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 2, 2008)

File it on the backburner I guess. I have always done my very best to avoid working on more than one story at a time. Like, I wouldn't mind starting on Conquest now, but I'm going to finish The Unbroken Chain first.

And I figure I'll just post Running here. It's pretty much a one page oneshot, but I still equate it as my current best work in terms of overall writing.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> ~><~Running~><~
> 
> An owl turns to hoot at a passing shadow, bursting through undergrowth and dodging trees. The moonlight, blocked by the leaves overhead, cannot reach her fleeing frame. As she leaps over a downed log, she lands heavily and rolls, before rushing into a run again. A twig snaps loudly as she steps on it and….
> 
> ...


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## Tyrael (Jun 2, 2008)

I liked it, although the tone was a little light considering the gravity of the situation and there is the odd phrasing and grammar part that did not sit well with but on the whole 'twas rather good.


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## The Thieving Queen (Jun 2, 2008)

Does anyone else get those ideas in thier heads that they think are brillant, but can't think of what inspired them? So you suddenly start thinking your mind is just getting the idea from a story already written, plagerising when you don't even notice?

I have a story in my head, but I think my mind is just stealing it from King Lear. But I can't even remember the story of King Lear. 

Btw Gregory Maguire <3


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## Batman (Jun 2, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I was expecting a stampede of people highlighting my multiple failings in writing and scolding me for the abundance of cliches present. I guess that I might be a bit hard on it though...
> 
> And your writing speed always knocks my head off. That said, my recent inactivity has been dying and I'm averaging a 1000 words a day, which means that my short chapters will be finished in another couple of days.



Nah its cause I've been out of college for a few years now so I don't have any real homework afterwork, or club activities or any of that stuff anymore. So I'm able to do a bit more than I would have been able to when I was in school. But then again, I've pretty much given up a lot of stuff that I used to do in the past. I don't really watch any t.v. (BSG excluded) I don't party like I used to, and I haven't played a video game in ages. I neglect my gf's and family and sit and type at the computer late into the night.  . . . so 1000 words a day when you're doing all of that extra school work and socialization is pretty damn good imo.




			
				The Thieving Queen said:
			
		

> Does anyone else get those ideas in thier heads that they think are brillant, but can't think of what inspired them? So you suddenly start thinking your mind is just getting the idea from a story already written, plagerising when you don't even notice?
> 
> I have a story in my head, but I think my mind is just stealing it from King Lear. But I can't even remember the story of King Lear.
> 
> Btw Gregory Maguire <3


 I assume every cool idea I think of has been done before. My hopes is to put my own original spin on it and put all my effort into the execution so that when I and other people read it, they say "what a fresh take", or if its done well enough "Wow what an original idea" even though I doubt it is.

I have such a kick ass idea that i'm saving for when my current project dies down that I feel like there's no way someone else hasn't done it before. But I haven't heard of anyone else doing it, which means that its out there. I can only hope for some luck.




			
				Serp said:
			
		

> Fuck I,m have a problem, what do you guys do when a new story hits you but you already have alot of projects and starting a new would just be too many.


 Exactly what the others are saying. Save it. Write it down, and hope you get a chance to work on it later. If the idea is good enough, I'll put it ahead in line of other ideas I was thinking about.



I'm working on a calendar. I didn't know I would need one for this story, but after a time i did. so I made one. And now i'm putting in all of this -stuff- it's pretty damn fun.


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## Tyrael (Jun 2, 2008)

The Thieving Queen said:


> Does anyone else get those ideas in thier heads that they think are brillant, but can't think of what inspired them? So you suddenly start thinking your mind is just getting the idea from a story already written, plagerising when you don't even notice?
> 
> I have a story in my head, but I think my mind is just stealing it from King Lear. But I can't even remember the story of King Lear.
> 
> Btw Gregory Maguire <3



I have the converse problem. Sometimes I write a plot then someone will point out that I've stolen off something I've never heard of before. I once, unknowingly, wrote the plot of Alien into a story without seeing it or having knowledge of it's story.

Either way jus' go for it, at worst it merely inspired you. And Batman is right about all the good stories being taken.



Batman said:


> Nah its cause I've been out of college for a few years now so I don't have any real homework afterwork, or club activities or any of that stuff anymore. So I'm able to do a bit more than I would have been able to when I was in school. But then again, I've pretty much given up a lot of stuff that I used to do in the past. I don't really watch any t.v. (BSG excluded) I don't party like I used to, and I haven't played a video game in ages. I neglect my gf's and family and sit and type at the computer late into the night.  . . . so 1000 words a day when you're doing all of that extra school work and socialization is pretty damn good imo.
> 
> I'm working on a calendar. I didn't know I would need one for this story, but after a time i did. so I made one. And now i'm putting in all of this -stuff- it's pretty damn fun.



You, good sir, make the mistake of assuming I have a social life.  How's your editing comin' along btw?

And I need to do something like that for my story, problem is that I keep changing things slightly but the whole thing is so unorganised that it could really use that.


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## Serp (Jun 2, 2008)

I see, thanks for the advice guys.
@Ty: I know that not all my stories are gonna be successes but I don't care  I write for fun


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## Tyrael (Jun 2, 2008)

Serp said:


> I see, thanks for the advice guys.
> @Ty: I know that not all my stories are gonna be successes but I don't care  I write for fun



Lol, by success I meant as well written and enjoyable as you'd hope, as how popular it is with other people. If I could write all of the ideas I have...well I'm pretty sure, as hard as I try, I won't.


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## Batman (Jun 2, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> You, good sir, make the mistake of assuming I have a social life.  How's your editing comin' along btw?
> 
> And I need to do something like that for my story, problem is that I keep changing things slightly but the whole thing is so unorganised that it could really use that.



Editing is out of my hands at the moment. I've got some extra eyes on it, looking  for boring parts, (unintentionally) confusing parts, and anything else that might not seem to work. It's the second to last step before i incorporate their suggestions that I might use, before finally sending it to a professional editor. So I've been writing the draft for book 2 atm. Which is pretty damn demanding, but some days very fun.

I wish I was like other people and did all of this little stuff beforehand sometimes. I just couldn't wait that long to sit down and write the story. You do things like character bios and stuff?


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## Serp (Jun 2, 2008)

Oh I'm definitely not writing all my ideas, I have far toooooooo~ooo many for that, I was told I has an over excited imagination and coupled with my tendencies to over analyze/ over elaborate everything, manifested in me turning even the simplest of thoughts/ideas into highly developed version of their otherwise basic selves 

Hence I only pursue my absolute favorites of the bunch .


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## Tyrael (Jun 2, 2008)

Batman said:


> Editing is out of my hands at the moment. I've got some extra eyes on it, looking  for boring parts, (unintentionally) confusing parts, and anything else that might not seem to work. It's the second to last step before i incorporate their suggestions that I might use, before finally sending it to a professional editor. So I've been writing the draft for book 2 atm. Which is pretty damn demanding, but some days very fun.
> 
> I wish I was like other people and did all of this little stuff beforehand sometimes. I just couldn't wait that long to sit down and write the story. You do things like character bios and stuff?



I try. Just can't fully communicate the subtle character nuances through general description though. I normally do one or two characters before giving up and writing the damn thing. As I said, it's all a chaotic mess in my head. I have written an outline before, but the story always changes during the writing of it.

Prof. ed? You thinkin' about submitting your stuff to a litererary agent sometime in the foreseeable future?


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## Batman (Jun 2, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I try. Just can't fully communicate the subtle character nuances through general description though. I normally do one or two characters before giving up and writing the damn thing. As I said, it's all a chaotic mess in my head. I have written an outline before, but the story always changes during the writing of it.
> 
> Prof. ed? You thinkin' about submitting your stuff to a litererary agent sometime in the foreseeable future?


I used to be horribly unorganized too. Now i'm better, not great but better. I forced myself to stop writing things down on random scraps of paper. Instead I put them into spiral note books, which I don't tend to fill up as fast as I did in the past. I have folders that I keep in specific bags which are pretty much just piles of jumbled nonsense but at least it's all in the same place. And as far as outlines go, I'm the same way. I have a very fleshed out story for book 2 in outline form. But the draft I have no is so different. I mean some of the main points are there that I couldn't leave out, but it's almost a completely different story. Still glad I did it though. It made me really think about the story and gain some things that I doubt I'd have gained had I not done it.


Hopefully in the close, close future I can submit this work. Since I've gotten so serious about the craft and I feel my story's pretty strong so I figured I give it a go. I've gotta do something, I'm not the office worker or laborer type. My boss already can't stand me because I contradict him all the time.


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## Tyrael (Jun 2, 2008)

Batman said:


> I used to be horribly unorganized too. Now i'm better, not great but better. I forced myself to stop writing things down on random scraps of paper. Instead I put them into spiral note books, which I don't tend to fill up as fast as I did in the past. I have folders that I keep in specific bags which are pretty much just piles of jumbled nonsense but at least it's all in the same place. And as far as outlines go, I'm the same way. I have a very fleshed out story for book 2 in outline form. But the draft I have no is so different. I mean some of the main points are there that I couldn't leave out, but it's almost a completely different story. Still glad I did it though. It made me really think about the story and gain some things that I doubt I'd have gained had I not done it.
> 
> 
> Hopefully in the close, close future I can submit this work. Since I've gotten so serious about the craft and I feel my story's pretty strong so I figured I give it a go. I've gotta do something, I'm not the office worker or laborer type. My boss already can't stand me because I contradict him all the time.



Sounds good man, I'm needing to get my head together, I'm still a bit intimidated by the whole procedure. First I'm gonna to get CA to a decent form though (fifth rewrite, go me!).


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 3, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I liked it, although the tone was a little light considering the gravity of the situation and there is the odd phrasing and grammar part that did not sit well with but on the whole 'twas rather good.



Well, I appreciate the feedback. I will admit, my grammar is no where near to a level I'd consider quality yet, but I learn fast enough.

As for the tone in the face of the situation, I'd attribute that more to a frayed mind, but then, that's just me.

So you've got a piece of writing in the work?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 3, 2008)

I am proud to say that I did get a little writing done and I did transition into the place where I wanted to be today, although I feel like I might need to go back and look over my notes on this one character and see if there is anything I can do to make the character flesh out more. I might even begin working on my timeline this week.


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## Tyrael (Jun 3, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Well, I appreciate the feedback. I will admit, my grammar is no where near to a level I'd consider quality yet, but I learn fast enough.
> 
> As for the tone in the face of the situation, I'd attribute that more to a frayed mind, but then, that's just me.
> 
> So you've got a piece of writing in the work?



I've almost always got a project burning away at me. The one I'm doing now I have already written once, and now am considering rewriting. Urgh.

And great to hear you got that bit done CTK, you get the subtlety alright?


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 3, 2008)

Hmm, I've always done bits and pieces, but most of them are sheerly for the readership of others. There's only one story in my head I'm driven to write no matter what, and when I tried it last time, I realised I wasn't good enough.

Ah well, I've written Pyrotechnic and Demonium since then, which both I consider improvements, and am working on The Unbroken Chain now.

Tell me about some of the stuff you've done.


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## Tyrael (Jun 3, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Hmm, I've always done bits and pieces, but most of them are sheerly for the readership of others. There's only one story in my head I'm driven to write no matter what, and when I tried it last time, I realised I wasn't good enough.
> 
> Ah well, I've written Pyrotechnic and Demonium since then, which both I consider improvements, and am working on The Unbroken Chain now.
> 
> Tell me about some of the stuff you've done.



These short stories, novellas or full novels? Seems you're doing well for getting projects finished, I always tend to only get about halfway through.

My current project, one that's being rewritten, is a huge sprawling science fantasy that is based around the idea of a divide between fantasy and reality. Oh, and it's got a kind of bastardisation of my meager understanding of the string theory in there as well. I could write about in the droves but I should probably stop now.

You a fantasy writer?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 3, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I've almost always got a project burning away at me. The one I'm doing now I have already written once, and now am considering rewriting. Urgh.
> 
> And great to hear you got that bit done CTK, you get the subtlety alright?



I decided to go ahead and move forward and see what's goes on as I progress. So far its working out pretty damn good. I can post part of it here.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Even through all of her pride, Angel Agustus Saint John couldn't help but be in awe of what she was seeing. An instant before it was too late, The Child had drew them all into an alternate dimension, in turn saving all of their lives before the explosion could take them away.​ 
Of course Angel knew that the Child wasn't really a Child. Although she wanted to be addressed as a child and even took the appearance of one. Angel folded her pale arms and looked down at the small brunette girl standing next to her. At the girl's full height she reached only just above Angel's hip line. Her hair was styled in big brown loopy curls that flowed down the back of her blood red dress.​ 
The Child let her eyes flow down the faces of her new group of prisoners, eight of them in this group. She smiled with real childish enthusiasm and bounced in place just a little, her little lips parted, ?This is going to be a sight to see.?​ 
?I'm sure it will,? Angel said with her arms still folded indignantly, ?But why did I have to come here, I've got a real job you know...?​ 
She basically ignored Angel's words, ?Did I tell you that you're dress...its such a pretty shade of green,? her voice was tiny and innocent sounding, but with a hint of intelligence no child could hope to posses.​ 
Angel sighed, she knew better than to press the issue or make an attempt to leave without permission.  The Child couldn't be taken lightly, after all she had created the very world they stood in now.  A dark void of life that she alone surfed and called her own dimension. It had no name nether did it have any real reason for being besides to serve her at her whims.​ 
?Thanks, I got this dress for a date I had a week back...? Angel responded finally.​ 
The Child walked across in front of Angel. Her gait was slow and steady, ?A date you say, Angel.?​ 
Angel stared her down trying to remain composed, ?Yes, a date, Annel.?​ 
?Don't call me that,? The Child shot her dark glance at her, ?And by date do you mean this little escapade.? The Child pointed to an empty space in the darkness and mist and as if it were happening all over again Angel could see the night that she had called a date.​ 
A man sitting in the back of a limousine shirtless with her straddling him, dress pressed down around her hips, Angel looked on in horror, ?You little...?​ 
?I'm simply showing what I know to be true,? Annel said.​ 
Angel slapped her hand to her forehead, ?Maybe you shouldn't be involving yourself in the issues of adults...?​ 
Annel removed the images with with a wave of her small hand. She clasped her hands back in front of her, her brown eyes turned back to the eight prisoners.​


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## Tyrael (Jun 3, 2008)

I think you tell the reader a little too much that could be demonstrated in other ways-although, I suppose, this is a staple part of your writing and many authors have been successful using it. Oh and there is the grammatical error (such as a missed question mark) also. The opening line was great and the image is surreal, but I would def. advice describing the environment a little more. The tone is very light and playful as well, not entirely sure if that is what you are going for.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 3, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> These short stories, novellas or full novels? Seems you're doing well for getting projects finished, I always tend to only get about halfway through.
> 
> My current project, one that's being rewritten, is a huge sprawling science fantasy that is based around the idea of a divide between fantasy and reality. Oh, and it's got a kind of bastardisation of my meager understanding of the string theory in there as well. I could write about in the droves but I should probably stop now.
> 
> You a fantasy writer?



Pyrotechnic is around 160 word pages, Demonium around 90. There are the only two I finished though, one from last year, one from thi. And yeah, I write fantasy, it's what I'm good at. Yours sounds interesting. You can PM me the droves if you want, I'd like to read it.


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## Tyrael (Jun 3, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Pyrotechnic is around 160 word pages, Demonium around 90. There are the only two I finished though, one from last year, one from thi. And yeah, I write fantasy, it's what I'm good at. Yours sounds interesting. You can PM me the droves if you want, I'd like to read it.



You're probably more veteran a writer than me, I've only written a short novel type thing of 120 pages (75000 words)


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 3, 2008)

It sounds interesting. I'll admit to thinking of the X-Men movie once or twice in reading it, but it's got a nice spin, especially based on the emotions. So higher states of emotion would result in higher results of mutations?

Dealing with social rifts can get tricky, but really interesting if you've got a good plan. Interactions between outcasts and those unaware of the outcasts as fellow humans is fun, and a corrupt government can lead to some very curious situations.

An idea from myself, if I may? Would there be one of these 'mutants' under the employ of the government? I'm seeing this character drawn between both sides, just looking for a bit of peace in a turmoiled world.

Of course, that's all my perspective, and it's not my right to impinge on someone else's work, but I figured a suggestion could lead to further developments on your part.

Your thoughts?


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## Serp (Jun 3, 2008)

> An idea from myself, if I may? Would there be one of these 'mutants' under the employ of the government? I'm seeing this character drawn between both sides, just looking for a bit of piece in a turmoiled world.


I have to admit I thought of Suzaku from CG when you said that.

Yea I'm getting a comicbook Magneto/William Striker feel when reading it, but have  subtle yet important differences and seems like there will be more focus on the story rather than the powers. ^^ I think I'll enjoy it as long as there is not prolonged actions scenes.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 3, 2008)

I like the idea of emotions as the key power. You can get some amazing uniqueness if you play your cards right.


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## Serp (Jun 3, 2008)

Yea I keep getting the idea that darker emotions grant darker powers, but it seems too cliche.


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## Tyrael (Jun 3, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> It sounds interesting. I'll admit to thinking of the X-Men movie once or twice in reading it, but it's got a nice spin, especially based on the emotions. So higher states of emotion would result in higher results of mutations?
> 
> Dealing with social rifts can get tricky, but really interesting if you've got a good plan. Interactions between outcasts and those unaware of the outcasts as fellow humans is fun, and a corrupt government can lead to some very curious situations.
> 
> ...





Taurus Versant said:


> I like the idea of emotions as the key power. You can get some amazing uniqueness if you play your cards right.



Trust me, it's nothing like X-Men: mutants was perhaps the wrong word. That is only part of the story, there is also the twin of that story rooted in "Tangents"-strange worlds that link to Levit and provide the more fantastical side of the story. The mutation is actually, to a certain degree (unbeknown to the masses) found within everyone and is symbolic of the whole fantasy of the thing, it keeps coming back to a divide between reality and fantasy or the tangible and the intangible, hence the emotions thing.

Oh and rather than a rogue individual it's a whole organisation, and feel free to make any suggestions you want.



Serp said:


> I have to admit I thought of Suzaku from CG when you said that.
> 
> Yea I'm getting a comicbook Magneto/William Striker feel when reading it, but have  subtle yet important differences and seems like there will be more focus on the story rather than the powers. ^^ I think I'll enjoy it as long as there is not prolonged actions scenes.



Not prolonged action scenes, lol, glad you like the sound of it. My ignorance will be at full exposure when I admit I have no idea who William Striker or Suzaku are though.

Cheers for both of your comments. The powers in themselves really aren't that important to be honest.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 3, 2008)

If the tangent is between reality and fantasy, maybe have a character who mentally lives in the fantasy side and can't perceive reality? used as a centrepiece for the government perhaps?


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## Tyrael (Jun 3, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> If the tangent is between reality and fantasy, maybe have a character who mentally lives in the fantasy side and can't perceive reality? used as a centrepiece for the government perhaps?



Even though that is a really cool idea, the tangent is the more fantastical side of the story, as well as being pivotal, rather than just a link. Problem is I've not explained half of it, especially pertaining to the main theme-it's hard to explain as it is unorganised and chaotic in my head.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 3, 2008)

Yeah, I know what you're saying there. Oh well, think on it, play around with your thoughts, find what entices you, and for the love of god, put it to paper, because I've forgotten more than I want to. If you wake up after a dream and have had a massive idea, put it down, don't think it'll last.

I've regretted that before.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 4, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Yeah, I know what you're saying there. Oh well, think on it, play around with your thoughts, find what entices you, and for the love of god, put it to paper, because I've forgotten more than I want to. If you wake up after a dream and have had a massive idea, put it down, don't think it'll last.
> 
> I've regretted that before.



I actually do that quite often, well not with dreams as much as everything else *it really helps not just to have real sticky notes but ones for my P.C. also.* It's amazing IMO that the best ideas are conjured in a point of time where it requires almost no effort or care? Reffering to dreams that is.


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## Tyrael (Jun 4, 2008)

Yeah...on the rare occasion I get them, my dreams are generally very disturbing. I would be lying if I said they impact my writing at all.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 4, 2008)

I've been reworking the piece I posted in here a while back but its kind of hard because I don't see much opportunity to get in there and fix or change things. I did finish out the chapter but it seems that I need to go on and try to actually rewrite it if possible. 

I might need to go an do that tonight and just sit down and work over all this and rewrite it all together.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 4, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Yeah...on the rare occasion I get them, my dreams are generally very disturbing. I would be lying if I said they impact my writing at all.



As for me, I've had two dreams so far that I wrote down, nearly exactly, simply because I liked the feel of them. I'm highly doubtful I can create a bridge between them, but if I can, I think I could work out a good story from them.


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## Pan-on (Jun 4, 2008)

I started writing something recently and I wondered what you all thought of the opening, as it is a pretty important part of any story. without telling you anything about the story i would like to know if any of you would want to read on based on this, i have a little more written at this point.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Gray had been Thirteen when he was first brought to the castle. The structure wasn't really a castle that was just a name it had been given by someone which had stuck, nothing recognizable as a castle in the historical sense had been built in hundreds of years, it was an enormous black dome with a spire rising out of its center hundreds of meters into the air. There was a forest which covered most of the area to one side of the castle while there was nothing but a road leading through seemingly endless grassland on the other. The armored vehicle which brought Gray to the castle was the only thing on the road, Gray's sole companion for the journey was the driver who never spoke or even looked at him once even when Gray screamed abuse at him through the bars separating them. By the time they arrived at their destination Gray had given up trying to get any kind of attention from the driver and retreated to the corner of his cage in an attempt to reclaim some of the sleep he had lost in the few days he had been on the road. He did eventually fall asleep but not for long, the vehicle stopped and some men piled inside, grabbed him roughly, and threw him onto the ground outside the vehicle giving him his first proper look at it. He had been wrong. the driver had not been his only traveling companion, Gray had simply been at the front of a large train of cages. There were twelve ?carriages? altogether and their occupants were being given the same level of care Gray was as they were ejected from their individual cages. The other occupants turned out to be boys and girls who looked like they were a similar age to Gray; and judging by the looks on their faces every bit as thrilled to be there as he was.




oh and the characters age at the beginning is totally random, i need to change it to fit later but im not sure to what yet.

I find it amusing that NF just pointed out a bunch of spelling errors my word processor missed


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## Batman (Jun 4, 2008)

Anonx said:


> I started writing something recently and I wondered what you all thought of the opening, as it is a pretty important part of any story. without telling you anything about the story i would like to know if any of you would want to read on based on this, i have a little more written at this point.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Lmao at Naruto forums superior spelling.

Anyways here's a few things off the top of my head. The paragraph ended very well. It has a nice hook. You kept me hanging, telling me just the right amount of information; ie giving me the characters expression of excitement, rather than showing me what they were actually excited about. Classical style that will almost always work in your favor. Keep it up.

Second, I would advise you to put us 'more there' with Gray when he's going on this ride. Even if it is in memory. Tell it like its occurring at the moment, it would feel a bit more dynamic. Give us his reactions to the height of the tower. Let us know what he shouted to the driver and maybe describe the driver's response or give it outright. Just give us more interaction with the character, more of his perspective of the world.

Third, watch the overuse of the word. 'Castle' It was taking me out of the story. Half of the times you used it could have been be ommitted, and a fourth of the time you could have called it something else, anything else. Because the more times you call it "The Castle" the less impact it has than if you used it one or two times.

This is of course just my perspective, so please take it with a grain of salt and keep writing. It's a good start.


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## Pan-on (Jun 4, 2008)

Batman said:


> Lmao at Naruto forums superior spelling.
> 
> Anyways here's a few things off the top of my head. The paragraph ended very well. It has a nice hook. You kept me hanging, telling me just the right amount of information; ie giving me the characters expression of excitement, rather than showing me what they were actually excited about. Classical style that will almost always work in your favor. Keep it up.
> 
> ...



thanks for the response, il bear that in mind next time i tweak it, especially the bit about my overuse of the word castle, it something i try to avoid but a word usually slips past my radar.


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## Tyrael (Jun 4, 2008)

My advice would be paragraph and watch your grammar, at the moment it is an unfriendly read. With a bit of polish it could, potentially, be interesting and engaging but atm there are certains parts of your style that get in the way.


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## Batman (Jun 4, 2008)

Anonx said:


> thanks for the response, il bear that in mind next time i tweak it, especially the bit about my overuse of the word castle, it something i try to avoid but a word usually slips past my radar.



np. I'm the same way on my first drafts. But hopefully it'll get easier for us with a bit more practice.

In one editing of the draft, I found out I used the words "that" and "had" to a disgusting degree. It took me deleting the words hundreds of times before i stopped making that mistake.


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## Tyrael (Jun 4, 2008)

Batman said:


> np. I'm the same way on my first drafts. But hopefully it'll get easier for us with a bit more practice.
> 
> In one editing of the draft, I found out I used the words "that" and "had" to a disgusting degree. It took me deleting the words hundreds of times before i stopped making that mistake.



"Got" is a real bogey word and I use stuff like, "appeared to" way to often. I think "had" and "that" are hard to tip-toe around so it presents a real stylistic challenge if you find yourself in that situation.


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## Batman (Jun 4, 2008)

"Appeared to" is another one for me as well. Also "As soon as" and "After a time". I suppose we'll notice these things way more than any our readers but still. After a while it feels like they add up.


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## Pan-on (Jun 4, 2008)

my particular bad habit is beginning something where a character's name has not yet been introduced, then having another character enter.It means i have to refer to them both as "he" most of the time which looks and sounds confusing, i generally now either introduce the character's name right away or make one character female just to simplify things


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## Tyrael (Jun 4, 2008)

Stylistically we are self-critical to a fault, but surely this is a mark of a genius.

Yeah, genius, me. 

Yeah, Anon, I do that at times well, just check out the chapter two of the novella with two unnamed chars talking. Got confusing to get right.


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## Batman (Jun 4, 2008)

lol convenient signs of genius


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## Tyrael (Jun 4, 2008)

Of course, we in the LD need no signs, do we?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 4, 2008)

Anonx said:


> my particular bad habit is beginning something where a character's name has not yet been introduced, then having another character enter.It means i have to refer to them both as "he" most of the time which looks and sounds confusing, i generally now either introduce the character's name right away or make one character female just to simplify things



Try using distinguishable physical traits for reference. I have scene's similar to that and that's what I'd do.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 5, 2008)

Batman said:


> "Appeared to" is another one for me as well. Also "As soon as" and "After a time". I suppose we'll notice these things way more than any our readers but still. After a while it feels like they add up.



Apparently I use 'a scant inch' too often.

Which is odd cause I run on the metric system, but oh well.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 5, 2008)

Sometimes I miss writing in the 1st person. Thinking on it one of my characters, Gohei, was awesome from 1st person perspective. From a 3rd person perspective I haven't quite mastered how to harness his personality. He seemed more flat last time I tried. Let the experiment begin anew.


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## Tyrael (Jun 5, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Sometimes I miss writing in the 1st person. Thinking on it one of my characters, Gohei, was awesome from 1st person perspective. From a 3rd person perspective I haven't quite mastered how to harness his personality. He seemed more flat last time I tried. Let the experiment begin anew.



Lol, this the 100000000th rewrite yet Yu? That said, I'm going down a similar aisle when it comes to my big project.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 5, 2008)

This is my first full rewrite. I just finally reached Gohei's introduction. I need to figure out fast how to recapture the wit he had and put it in a third person perspective.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 5, 2008)

What story are you creating there, Yu?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 5, 2008)

Its too complicated to describe to my satisfaction. I've tried several times. 

It centers mostly around the family Auravelius 
The story starts with the appearance of a strange man who disappears with the daughter of Michelle Auravelius. She follows her brother-in-law Cyrus Auravelius to the world of Alrusavera to find her daughter. Eridaltia Auravelius is taken to Alrusavera by the aforementioned mystery man and finds herself in Rin Valley capitol city of Anezaie. There she is rescued by young noblewoman Aoi Ichikawa. 

Gohei Kanahara is a soldier of Anezaie stationed in the hostile country of Somanensis. There he finds himself caught up in a civil war. 

There is my mongled description.


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## Tyrael (Jun 5, 2008)

Yu, why eliminate all first person from your writing? Have the odd comment in first person laced in there, hard to get the hang of, but it could help you.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 5, 2008)

I will see what I can do.


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## Tyrael (Jun 5, 2008)

Considering your concerns, it makes sense. 3rd person and 1st need not be completely divorced.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 5, 2008)

In my recent writings, Pyrotechnic was third person and Demonium first. It seems I'm better with first person in general, but third enables a greater range of character descriptions.


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## Tyrael (Jun 5, 2008)

Both have ups and downs, Pratchett blends them together slightly which something I would like to be able to do well. Shattered tense and shattered perspective-both I hope to incorporate into my writing.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 5, 2008)

I have heard much praise everywhere of Pratchett. I must read his work one day.


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## Tyrael (Jun 5, 2008)

Pratchett's characterisation and the way he deals with themes is nought less than fantastic. He's probably my favourite author of all time.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 5, 2008)

I don't believe in mixing tenses, I basically wrote two stories in first and then some in third. My series actually starts in first person but from the looks of things most of the stories will be done in third.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 6, 2008)

The Prologue to The Unbroken Chain was in first person, but then the rest of it was in third.

But then, I don't put The Unbroken Chain on the same level as Demonium. It's probably better than Pyrotechnic by sheer value of my writing improving, but Demonium is my current best.


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## Tyrael (Jun 6, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I don't believe in mixing tenses, I basically wrote two stories in first and then some in third. My series actually starts in first person but from the looks of things most of the stories will be done in third.



Any reason? It doesn't sound like you've even tried it.



Taurus Versant said:


> The Prologue to The Unbroken Chain was in first person, but then the rest of it was in third.
> 
> But then, I don't put The Unbroken Chain on the same level as Demonium. It's probably better than Pyrotechnic by sheer value of my writing improving, but Demonium is my current best.



Fair 'nuff, but I'm talking even on a textual level. Obviously it has to be used sparsely and with care.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 6, 2008)

I actually have once before and I hated how it worked out, the transitioning is too hard and most people were really confused or put off by it. So I just decided it was something best left alone.


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## Tyrael (Jun 6, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I actually have once before and I hated how it worked out, the transitioning is too hard and most people were really confused or put off by it. So I just decided it was something best left alone.



That's fair enough-It is very hard and dodgy, could be useful if it pulled off correctly though.


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## Batman (Jun 6, 2008)

So I got asked the dreaded question last night: "So what's you're book about?"   

I realized that with this particular book, this is a not a good question for me (yet) b/c I haven't thought of a tagline. With the other book i'm going to write in the future, he story revolves around the 'hook' idea, but with this one, if I were to tell someone what the book is about based upon how it progresses they'd be like ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, So I was left high and dry without a decent thing to say,  so I've got to think of something that sounds interesting for the next time in one or two sentences. Otherwise my well crafted meal 7 course meal will seem like a bag n grab from the local convenience store.


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## Chee (Jun 6, 2008)

Ah, a little summary. Pretty easy problem to fix.

Who is the main character?
What it the plot?
Who is the antagonist?

Like: Little Red Riding Hood takes a basket of goodies to her sick grandmother, but a Big Bad Wolf stands in her way.

Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 6, 2008)

I have several main characters
The plot goes sideways pretty quickly.
I don't have a clear antagonist.


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## Chee (Jun 6, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I have several main characters
> The plot goes sideways pretty quickly.
> I don't have a clear antagonist.



There should be one lead character that "drives the car", the other characters can be major but they don't "drive the car," because obviously only one person can drive a car.
I don't know if you read it but: Stephen King wrote a novel called The Stand and had multiple lead characters. If your going for something like that, its a tough thing to do. He was still able to name all of his protagonists under one name: survivors, which is good when writing a tagline. Because they all had something in common he was able to make the story work.

The plot should be clear to you and the readers. If it isn't clear to you, then how in the world are you writing it?

If you don't have a clear antagonist, you should. That's the character that is against the protagonist and it is a must in a story. There has to be a problem, if there isn't a problem then there is no story.

If you can't tell people your story in one or two sentences, something is missing from your story. Find it and fix it.


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## Batman (Jun 6, 2008)

Chee said:


> Ah, a little summary. Pretty easy problem to fix.
> 
> Who is the main character?
> What it the plot?
> ...



If I do it like that, it will sound boring.  Maybe i'll just lie.


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## Tyrael (Jun 6, 2008)

Batman said:


> If I do it like that, it will sound boring.  Maybe i'll just lie.



Say it is about cheese and how it plays a pivotal role in a country's economy.

On that subject though Chee, I think that a tale need not be as linear as having one protagonist, although you are right about it being hard to have multiple (my main project has 4). Antagonist ain't as important in my opinion, often needed to give focal point to but in many stories potentially out of place. One thing I would like to add is that often describing themes often is a good substitute for giving away any plot; such as the way Serp has often described his book as being about what makes a human.


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## Chee (Jun 6, 2008)

Batman said:


> If I do it like that, it will sound boring.  Maybe i'll just lie.


It comes very useful when you plan to pitch a project.

Publishers need a one line tag (they like it under 15 words from what I heard) so it comes in handy. 

For my story, its very complex but I worked it all out:
An abused teenager struggles to make her life better when she is thrown into a 200 year battle between the two surviving werewolves from an unknown-to-humans holocaust and the insane werewolf who started it all.

I got the overall story and plot in it, but I leave out the important details. Right now you got to get readers, editors and publishers interested by one or two sentences.



Tyrael said:


> Say it is about cheese and how it plays a pivotal role in a country's economy.
> 
> On that subject though Chee, I think that a tale need not be as linear as having one protagonist, although you are right about it being hard to have multiple (my main project has 4). Antagonist ain't as important in my opinion, often needed to give focal point to but in many stories potentially out of place. One thing I would like to add is that often describing themes often is a good substitute for giving away any plot; such as the way Serp has often described his book as being about what makes a human.



One lead character. You can have as many protagonists as you'd like. But one character should be the lead. 
For example: Titanic. We have a lot of protagonists (the love interest for example, Jack) on board the ship, but to get readers (viewers in this case) they chose one person to focus on.

Antagonists are important. They are the main cause of the problem. And like I said before, if your story has no problem then it ain't a story. 
Readers aren't interested in a happy-go-lucky-fest (if they are, then their stupid), they want to see a problem and see the lead character suffer and make their way over the problem.
Antagonists can be a small as a bitchy parent or as big as a villain who wants to take over the world. Either way, there has to be someone that causes the protagonists (and the lead character) stress.

Serp will most likely add an antagonist, after all what makes us human is overcoming problems. Plot, story, theme, protagonists, and antagonists: they all works together and their all vitally important.


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## Tyrael (Jun 6, 2008)

Chee said:


> It comes very useful when you plan to pitch a project.
> 
> Publishers need a one line tag (they like it under 15 words from what I heard) so it comes in handy.
> 
> ...



What Serp does with his story is not what I look to comment on: I'm sure no one can do it better with his story.

I tend to think of protagonist being largely synonymous with lead character. And the stories problems don't need to be caused by an antagonist: _All That Glisters_ is fantastic short story where a girl's father dies from asbestos poisoning. _Catch-22_ for example is a full length novel with no antagonist but loads of antagonistic characters. There are cruel, bitter and downright annoying characters but to pick an antagonist is unrepresentative of the book as a whole.

The movie _Crash_ managed to be fantastic and touching with a large number of protagonists and no real lead. Look at _A Game of Thrones_, the fantasy world is slavering over it and it has no lead char in particular, more a large number of protagonists.

Denying classic story structures to be different is an exercise in vanity but as I've said before, saying a story has to have something or can never have something either is just as bad.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 6, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> That's fair enough-It is very hard and dodgy, could be useful if it pulled off correctly though.



Yeah but its not something I really see much stock in, you know? 



Chee said:


> Ah, a little summary. Pretty easy problem to fix.
> 
> Who is the main character?
> What it the plot?
> ...



When asked to answer these questions on a per story basis I can easily answer them.


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## Chee (Jun 6, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> What Serp does with his story is not what I look to comment on: I'm sure no one can do it better with his story.
> 
> I tend to think of protagonist being largely synonymous with lead character. And the stories problems don't need to be caused by an antagonist: _All That Glisters_ is fantastic short story where a girl's father dies from asbestos poisoning. _Catch-22_ for example is a full length novel with no antagonist but loads of antagonistic characters. There are cruel, bitter and downright annoying characters but to pick an antagonist is unrepresentative of the book as a whole.
> 
> ...



Dude. There are always, ALWAYS exceptions.

There are stories that can work with just a problem. That is good, if they don't need an antagonist. Always exceptions.
I have seen a movie called The Man Who Cried. No real antagonist (and honestly I was a bit bored because of it) but there was a problem and that's what made me stick by it. I wouldn't recommend the film, but it at least made me stick by it.

Stories like The Stand, or Crash (which I haven't seen) can work with multiple lead characters. I'm saying that far more stories work better with one lead character. Plus its a tough thing to write multiple leads all in one story. If you can do it, go right on ahead. There are always exceptions.

We're all aspiring novelists here, and what we want the most is to get published. So throw in a damn antagonist, a problem and a clear lead character and it will all work fine. If you guys don't want to do that, thats your opinion and some stories can work fine without it. Always exceptions.

All I'm doing is trying to help you guys out with clearing up your story. If you can't write a simple tagline then obviously something is wrong with the story. Find it and fix it. Editors can smell a problem it a mile away. Always exceptions.


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## Tyrael (Jun 6, 2008)

Chee said:


> Dude. There are always, ALWAYS exceptions.
> 
> There are stories that can work with just a problem. That is good, if they don't need an antagonist. Always exceptions.
> I have seen a movie called The Man Who Cried. No real antagonist (and honestly I was a bit bored because of it) but there was a problem and that's what made me stick by it. I wouldn't recommend the film, but it at least made me stick by it.
> ...



I know, you were just comin' down a bit my way or the highway again and as it happens I, personally, do have a fairly clear antagonist and I'm still sorting out the protagonist thing. The way I see it is that if you try something too much then you learn-simple as that. Start out dreaming big dreams and over-stretching yourselves so that you have the drive to one day actually catch up with that. Early development is really a transition and the time for testing limits, you can give advice but laying down laws is pretty unhelpful.

Anyways, experimentation is about what rough and developing novelists, I believe, should be doing. When style does settle down breaking it will be more difficult, and there are some styles that may suit unconventional styles. I can see no point in adhering strictly to the rules of classic narrative merely because mainstream of literature frowns upon stories that go otherwise.

Edit-I'm not sure getting published is my aim at the moment, for the now I just want to lose myself in writing and be able to tell a story. Sometime in the future I'll look towards publishing but as of this moment I just want to write.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 6, 2008)

I think mayhaps someone needs to read more.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 6, 2008)

The Crash should never considered to have multiple main characters because most of the characters were just stereotypes any way, they didn't try to write realistic people. They just gave a stereotype a script...


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## Tyrael (Jun 6, 2008)

I got the impression that was the idea, to set them up on surface level as stereotypes before using the context and events to show how on deeper levels there is more than it seems. I thought the way they 3-dimensionalised chars was brilliant.


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## Pan-on (Jun 6, 2008)

I don't agree that a story necessarily needs an antagonist, I know you said there are exceptions but I believe there are plenty of stories without an antagonist. Take Genshiken for example, its my favorite manga but has no real antagonist all the way through, but I would still recommend it to anyone who likes good character development in manga. The same of course apples to novels or short stories.

I am a little (read a lot) drunk  right now so I apologize for any spelling or grammar errors in this post buy i wanted to say something (so much that i wrote this 3 times after accidentally going back a page twice.


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## Tyrael (Jun 6, 2008)

Anonx said:


> I don't agree that a story necessarily needs an antagonist, I know you said there are exceptions but I believe there are plenty of stories without an antagonist. Take Genshiken for example, its my favorite manga but has no real antagonist all the way through, but I would still recommend it to anyone who likes good character development in manga. The same of course apples to novels or short stories.
> 
> I am a little (read a lot) drunk  right now so I apologize for any spelling or grammar errors in this post buy i wanted to say something (so much that i wrote this 3 times after accidentally going back a page twice.



And who says stereotypes aren't realistic CTK? 

Actually, that was a fairly coherent post, I'm impressed.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 6, 2008)

Stereotypes have there bases in reality.


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## Pan-on (Jun 6, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> And who says stereotypes aren't realistic CTK?
> 
> Actually, that was a fairly coherent post, I'm impressed.



spell check is my friend even if it is using the American spelling.


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## Tyrael (Jun 6, 2008)

Anonx said:


> spell check is my friend even if it is using the American spelling.



At 2:30 at night even being able to use the spell-check is an achievement.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 6, 2008)

Being 11:40am, does that make me the most coherent here? Doubtful, but still.


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## Pan-on (Jun 6, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> At 2:30 at night even being able to use the spell-check is an achievement.



i suppose that is true, back on topic I quite enjoy writing when I am drunk if only because of the amusing results in the morning, still it does seem easier when you are partially inebriated, anyone agree?.


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## Tyrael (Jun 6, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Being 11:40am, does that make me the most coherent here? Doubtful, but still.



Depends what you've spent the last 11 hours and 40 minutes doing.

Oh and anon, I'm a non-drinker so I wouldn't know. But I could imagine...


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 6, 2008)

Not what I should be, that's for sure.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 6, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> And who says stereotypes aren't realistic CTK?
> 
> Actually, that was a fairly coherent post, I'm impressed.



Not for characters in a movie that's supposed to be touching, all you see are silly stereotypes made to move around screen in a pretentious piece of shit movie. Nothing was shocking or special about it. 



Lord Yu said:


> Stereotypes have there bases in reality.



So do a lot of other things, but they still make for shitty writing.


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## Pan-on (Jun 6, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Depends what you've spent the last 11 hours and 40 minutes doing.
> 
> Oh and anon, I'm a non-drinker so I wouldn't know. But I could imagine...



Non drinker, any particular reason if you don't mind my asking or just a general dislike for alcohol. Not that im a heavy drinker myself, cant stand the taste of most alcohol.

I quite enjoy writing when I have had a little to drink, I find it easier to focus oddly, I am less likely to get sidetracked by a word I cant spell or something like that.

that damn german advert keeps giving me a heart attack.


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## Tyrael (Jun 6, 2008)

TV-Well then welcome to the club. I think it was about time there was a good spam in this place.

CTK-I really enjoyed it actually and thought they did well to bring it out of the stereotypes and establish well-rounded chars. Each to his own I guess.

Anon-Not keen on alcohol's taste and seen one too many drunk people to try and drink it merely to fit in. That said, sometimes drunk people can be funny.

Agreed about the german advert.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 6, 2008)

Firefox + Adblock + Noscript = Painless internet browsing.


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## Tyrael (Jun 6, 2008)

Currently another one of my friends is also drunk and chatting to me. Must be that time of the day/night.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 6, 2008)

Ya know, I'm considering posting Demonium here, we're allowed to post our own stories, right?

If anyone's interested, shall I post the Prologue on this thread and if people want to read it, I'll make a thread?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 6, 2008)

Post away. Nothings stopping you.


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## Tyrael (Jun 6, 2008)

Go for it, I'll read it when the hour is not so ungodly.


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## Pan-on (Jun 6, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> TV-Well then welcome to the club. I think it was about time there was a good spam in this place.
> 
> CTK-I really enjoyed it actually and thought they did well to bring it out of the stereotypes and establish well-rounded chars. Each to his own I guess.
> 
> ...



fair enough, i dislike the taste of most alcohol, morgans spiced rum and coke tastes sorta like vanilla coke though. I used to live on Cowgate, watching the drunks was practically a hobby.

Firefox can stop the ads you say? interesting, il have to work out how to do that.

it is 3AM everything just closed


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## Tyrael (Jun 6, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Post away. Nothings stopping you.



I don't know Yu, your scarily severe presence might be doing the trick. That said, I'm not sure I've seen you give anyone else crit. before.



Anonx said:


> fair enough, i dislike the taste of most alcohol, morgans spiced rum and coke tastes sorta like vanilla coke though. I used to live on Cowgate, watching the drunks was practically a hobby.
> 
> Firefox can stop the ads you say? interesting, il have to work out how to do that.
> 
> it is 3AM everything just closed



Sounds like fun-and it is indeed 3 so I'm off to bed. Happy spamming people.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 6, 2008)

I don't believe I have given a critique. Might try it sometime.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 6, 2008)

I'll probably make a thread with this and the first chapter later, and then update it casually.


*Spoiler*: _Demonium Prologe_ 



~<\Demonium/>~

~<\Prologue/>~

The feeling of waking from an eternal sleep, it’s strange. I doubt anyone can comment on eternity, but if I ever do experience it, I bet it’ll feel like this. So slowly did my body begin to react; a twitch of the hand, the creak of my bones, the infinite amount of time it took my eyelids to rise. Not that it made any difference – I couldn’t see a thing. Have you ever been in real darkness before? Not like this. Sometimes you might say ‘it’s as black as pitch’, or ‘a moonless night’. This though, this was true darkness. Yet somehow I could make out shapes blurring into my vision. My eyes were adjusting to this perfect darkness, which was strange in itself. But when they had adjusted completely, well, I really wish they hadn’t.

Demons, rows of them, an army, easily. Hundreds of the black monstrosities, all shapes and sizes, were spread out in every direction. Yet, I had to notice, none looked at me. In fact, every single Demon stared forwards. I followed their gaze, seeing a quite demonic, even for a Demon, member of their species standing atop a massive pillar of obsidian rock. It was clear that whoever this monster was, it was a leader.

It was at this point that the realisation I was standing at the same height as Demons struck me. The warning bells that had originally gone off when I awoke sounded again, but this time it was a much more shocked sound than afraid. I took that moment to look down at myself. The black arms, ending in predatory claws, the flat feet and gently waving tail, the wings I could now feel emerging from my back, they were the last signs I needed.

No wonder these Demons did not attack me; I was one of them.


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## Pan-on (Jun 6, 2008)

I will say something about it tomorrow when i am totally sober, however I cant see any major problems right now.


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## graysocks (Jun 7, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> I'll probably make a thread with this and the first chapter later, and then update it casually.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Demonium Prologe_
> ...



I liked this! You have a nice descriptive style that flows and builds towards the hook at the end. I think the setting would be a place to look for improvement but as it is complete darkness i can see why not 

Another squabble is a few lines pull away from the focus and flow, like "which was strange in itself" and "even for a demon", I thought they were unnecessary. Saying that, minor flaws that are easier to point out than the good stuff haha.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 7, 2008)

Nah, I'm fully aware of minor flaws, and remembering to keep a good description of environment and characters is my fatal flaw in writing anyway. But I appreciate the feedback. I'll probably make that thread tomorrow morning.


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## Tyrael (Jun 7, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> I'll probably make a thread with this and the first chapter later, and then update it casually.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Demonium Prologe_
> ...



Interesting I like it and find nothing really to snipe at you for 'cept maybe for a repeated sentence structure in there (two "yets" felt a little like you were attempting to create something), and comma splice that seems to be part of your writing style therefore not needing looked at.

In other words: good work. And I think lose lines, graysocks, only added to the sense of internal monologue, strictly speaking redundant in the text but they do add to the characterisation.

Oh and anon-4:20? you must be rather mental.


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## Pan-on (Jun 7, 2008)

I would pretty much be repeating what other have said about your prologue at this point but i would like to comment on this.




> No wonder these Demons did not attack me; I was one of them.



something about this seems out of place, I think its the word "these" it seems overly formal to me for the tone of the rest of the writing.



Tyrael said:


> Oh and anon-4:20? you must be rather mental.



possibly, i am semi nocturnal at times, it has its disadvantages

and on completely unrelated note it turns out i passed both english and scottish literature


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## graysocks (Jun 7, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Interesting I like it and find nothing really to snipe at you for 'cept maybe for a repeated sentence structure in there (two "yets" felt a little like you were attempting to create something), and comma splice that seems to be part of your writing style therefore not needing looked at.
> 
> In other words: good work. And I think lose lines, graysocks, only added to the sense of internal monologue, strictly speaking redundant in the text but they do add to the characterisation.
> 
> Oh and anon-4:20? you must be rather mental.



Yeah i getcha, adds to charactisation so it is not redundant in that sense, but i felt it broke the flow of that paragraph. When reading it, those adding points of description pulled away from the feel of the passage, for me atleast.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 7, 2008)

I had previously called the new story "_This Time Imperfect_" but for some reason the title never felt right to me. I got the title from the title of an older story I had written, in that case I really liked the title but this time around it didn't seem to sit well. Funny because the plots are very similar the only difference is the characters involved in the plots aren't the same set as before.

I went on writing and I realized that I should use the name of the dimension itself as the story title. So that's how I came to settle upon the name *The Proof Of Existence*, that might sound kind of odd but I really like it and it seems to fit this way.


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## Tyrael (Jun 7, 2008)

Watch out, that title suggests heavy existential philosophy, you intend that to be the main theme?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 7, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Watch out, that title suggests heavy existential philosophy, you intend that to be the main theme?



Hmm no, its more along the lines of memories (the memories that they will be reliving) are the proof that we exist. It's more like saying, "the memories we have and the memories others have of us are the sum of our existence".


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## Pan-on (Jun 7, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Hmm no, its more along the lines of memories (the memories that they will be reliving) are the proof that we exist. It's more like saying, "the memories we have and the memories others have of us are the sum of our existence".



Ah now I find that very interesting, memory is one of those things i really want to write about, i have an idea for something based around it but its more a premise than an actual story.


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## Tyrael (Jun 8, 2008)

1984 Anyone? If you control a person's memory you can control their past.


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## Pan-on (Jun 8, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> 1984 Anyone? If you control a person's memory you can control their past.



i was perhaps a little young when i read that not that i hated i, just didn't appreciate it as much as i feel i should have.


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## Tyrael (Jun 8, 2008)

Anonx said:


> i was perhaps a little young when i read that not that i hated i, just didn't appreciate it as much as i feel i should have.



I know a lot about the world, I've practically hammered the concepts into my head but I've yet to read the book. Probably makes me ill-equipped to talk but it but, feh...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 8, 2008)

Anonx said:


> Ah now I find that very interesting, memory is one of those things i really want to write about, i have an idea for something based around it but its more a premise than an actual story.



This idea was devised as a way to pretty much tell the past of some of the characters in the present tense without going to a flash back.



Tyrael said:


> 1984 Anyone? If you control a person's memory you can control their past.



I actually got the idea while watching the movie Eternal Sunshine.


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## Tyrael (Jun 9, 2008)

Eternal sunshine=awesome movie. If you can capture that level of surreality then I tip my hat to you.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 9, 2008)

Posted the prologue to my story on my new blog. It's half-assed in some places and perhaps a tad repetitious in word usage I'll admit.


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## Serp (Jun 9, 2008)

Hi guys how goes the writing


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## Tyrael (Jun 9, 2008)

Serp said:


> Hi guys how goes the writing



My big period of inactivity is finally broken, how about yourself?


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## Serp (Jun 9, 2008)

Well I was personally figured out how to deal with my problem of having so many stories I want to write at once, I decided to write an anthology(sp?) of all the small stories ^^.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 9, 2008)

Anyone one checking out my prologue? I see alot I could fix. I personally felt it kinda flat when I skimmed over it.


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## Tyrael (Jun 9, 2008)

Serp said:


> Well I was personally figured out how to deal with my problem of having so many stories I want to write at once, I decided to write an anthology(sp?) of all the small stories ^^.



I'm writing a short story a week currently, that sort of idea?



Lord Yu said:


> Anyone one checking out my prologue? I see alot I could fix. I personally felt it kinda flat when I skimmed over it.



I'm about halfway through it, and it does need to be watched with the tense at times. Second person is very intriguing approach though. Your lack of commas may be a stylistic trait but it is slightly jarring.


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## Serp (Jun 9, 2008)

Ty said:
			
		

> I'm writing a short story a week currently, that sort of idea?


No really I'm giving the set of short stories a theme, to which each novella with follow.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 9, 2008)

I do have occasional tense issues. I used to write alot in past tense so that habit still lingers.


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## Tyrael (Jun 9, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I do have occasional tense issues. I used to write alot in past tense so that habit still lingers.



So far it reminds me of _Riverrun_, a book that left me thoroughly disturbed. I thought it started very strongly but it's waning slightly, there needs to be a little more description.

Also "Irish mob"?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 9, 2008)

I could go into details but that could be way spoilerish.

Borrowed from an Irish loan shark. Fled to Spain.


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## Tyrael (Jun 9, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I could go into details but that could be way spoilerish.
> 
> Borrowed from an Irish loan shark. Fled to Spain.



Just struck me as odd. Anyway it's def. giving me some strong _River Run _connotations.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 9, 2008)

Also if my book leaves you thoroughly disturbed then I will say I have done my job.


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## Tyrael (Jun 9, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Also if my book leaves you thoroughly disturbed then I will say I have done my job.



Lol, as it happens it's more kinda surreal-a good surreal-but I think your style wanes somewhat after a really cracking start and you cut to the main problem before properly introducing and setting up chars, as such they're not too engaging.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 9, 2008)

I basically stop that and center on character the first chapter. My main problem is no matter how I altered it, I hated the Earth section of the story. So I admit I rushed past it. Chapter 1 and 2 are the real character introduction.


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## Tyrael (Jun 9, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I basically stop that and center on character the first chapter. My main problem is no matter how I altered it, I hated the Earth section of the story. So I admit I rushed past it. Chapter 1 and 2 are the real character introduction.



Cut it out and have it implied. That's what i would do-not actually include all that expositionary gaff and have it either told or implied. that said, it could muck up the order of your story. I'll say it again though, I really liked your originality.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 9, 2008)

I figure it out soon. I just kinda enjoyed writing the car scene. Also I got kind of used to that being the beginning. Well that's what rewrites are for.


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## Tyrael (Jun 9, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I figure it out soon. I just kinda enjoyed writing the car scene. Also I got kind of used to that being the beginning. Well that's what rewrites are for.



I loved both the car scene and the bit before that, but after that it never really clicked. Anyway, when push comes to shove you choose what to do man.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 10, 2008)

Awhile ago I drafted a creation myth for my world. I think I might expand and rewrite it.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 10, 2008)

Creation myths are fun. My main story is built around one.


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## Tyrael (Jun 10, 2008)

Is this tolkein style extraneous stuff or plot central world creation?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 10, 2008)

Tolkien style mostly.


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## Tyrael (Jun 10, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Tolkien style mostly.



I'm not the biggest fan of that sorta stuff as it can be distracting, but I guess it can't hurt.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 10, 2008)

It's not entirely extraneous but it's not central either. It has it's own little role. Actually, I'd say it better explains my use of symbols.


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## Tyrael (Jun 10, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> It's not entirely extraneous but it's not central either. It has it's own little role. Actually, I'd say it better explains my use of symbols.



Symbols in that culture or overall symbolism?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 10, 2008)

Symobols in that culture.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 10, 2008)

Right now I am trying to do some of the research for the story and getting things more sorted out and the like. I kind of want this story to have a clear path...


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## Lord Yu (Jun 10, 2008)

I still need to research architectural terms and perhaps Japanese tea ceremony.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 10, 2008)

What's all that for? The architecture.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 10, 2008)

Why of course. I want my arsenal of words varied and without repetition.


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## Chee (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm struggling to write my first sentence of my novel, so do you guys think this is decent? Any critques?



> Charles Darwin once implied in an essay that only the swiftest and slimmest wolves could survive the trials of natural selection when prey quantity was at it's low, and honestly many years ago I didn't believe one word of that bullshit.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 11, 2008)

Decent enough. 

I think I will do individual prologues for each POV character.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 11, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Is this tolkein style extraneous stuff or plot central world creation?



Mine is plot central meanwhile, where the main arcing overall plot is driven by the way the universe was created. And ends .

As to your sentence there, Chee, all I can see needing is a little more bite to the guy disclaiming Charles Darwin. Give his words sting.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 11, 2008)

Chee said:


> I'm struggling to write my first sentence of my novel, so do you guys think this is decent? Any critques?



let me take a crack at...



> Charles Darwin, the 19th century geologist and deliverer of the theory of evolution into the scientific community, stated in his book "The Origins of Species" on the eighth key observation to his theory that "Individuals less suited to the environment are less likely to survive and less likely to reproduce, while individuals more suited to the environment are more likely to survive and more likely to reproduce. " Long ago, I believed such a theory to be absolutely absurb, but time had showed me my errors...


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 11, 2008)

Seems a little formal to me, while I figured the effect looked for was an informal and blunt sentence from the perspective, but that's just my opinion.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 11, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Seems a little formal to me, while I figured the effect looked for was an informal and blunt sentence from the perspective, but that's just my opinion.



What's wrong with the character speaking from a future tense? It'd actually be better if the starting sentence was foreshadowing the events to come in the novel as if we was much older.


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## Tyrael (Jun 11, 2008)

I, for one, thought it was a very good opener Chee, you didn't reveal the characters position to the end yet slightly hinted through the sentence. It also raises the readers interest "evolution? Wolves? What's going on here?"

And I think you reveal a lot in the character Mad-Dog which may not be intended and it goes into more detail than maybe necessary, suggesting some sort of direct discussion of the argument. If the character is clinical and observant and very particular that first sentence would work though. Also:



> deliverer of the theory of evolution into the scientific community



Sounds a bit clumsy and long winded.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 11, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I, for one, thought it was a very good opener Chee, you didn't reveal the characters position to the end yet slightly hinted through the sentence. It also raises the readers interest "evolution? Darwin? What's going on here?"
> 
> And I think you reveal a lot in the character Mad-Dog which may not be intended and it goes into more detail than maybe necessary, suggesting some sort of direct discussion of the argument. If the character is clinical and observant and very particular that first sentence would work though. Also:
> 
> ...



I'm not revealing anything that's already been stated in the raw sentence, I'm just stating that the evolutionairy theory has an appliance to what will happen in the story, and in the raw sentence it appears clinical/observant because it's foreshadowing something. 

And if your willing to offer a critiscm, then I suggest you offer a better alternative as well.


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## Tyrael (Jun 11, 2008)

Mad-Dog said:


> I'm not revealing anything that's already been stated in the raw sentence, I'm just stating that the evolutionairy theory has an appliance to what will happen in the story, and in the raw sentence it appears clinical/observant because it's foreshadowing something.
> 
> And if your willing to offer a critiscm, then I suggest you offer a better alternative as well.



When push comes to shove I'm just offering my opinion-I thought Chee's original start was good. The problem is we don't know if evolutionary theory comes into the story directly or if it is a metaphor, further if it does come into the story then we don't know to what level it is handled. You also have to remember with 1st person every sentence reveals character.

I'm not a big fan of putting words in other people's work but if you want an alternative I would use:



> the 19th century geologist who(m?) delivered the theory of evolution into the scientific community



Flows slightly better IMO, less repetition of structures inside the same sentence.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 11, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> When push comes to shove I'm just offering my opinion-I thought Chee's original start was good. The problem is we don't know if evolutionary theory comes into the story directly or if it is a metaphor, further if it does come into the story then we don't know to what level it is handled. You also have to remember with 1st person every sentence reveals character.
> 
> I'm not a big fan of putting words in other people's work but if you want an alternative I would use:
> 
> ...



But the way it's stated as 





> "Charles Darwin once implied in an essay that only the swiftest and slimmest wolves could survive the trials of natural selection when prey quantity was at it's low, and honestly many years ago I didn't believe one word of that bullshit. "


 is stating that the theory of evolution will be worked out somewhere in the story, all I did was beefed up the sentence, making it a bit more realistic and allowing the reader to learn something. Or t would at least be better to say that will come into play.

And I will say that flows much better, kudos.


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## Tyrael (Jun 11, 2008)

Mad-Dog said:


> But the way it's stated as  is stating that the theory of evolution will be worked out somewhere in the story, all I did was beefed up the sentence, making it a bit more realistic and allowing the reader to learn something. Or t would at least be better to say that will come into play.
> 
> And I will say that flows much better, kudos.



It is the safest assumption that it will come into play, but the sentence could be alluding to basic survival or social trends towards skinniness (a very contrived metaphor that would be) over a scientific exploration. Basically it's Chee's story and I'm not keen on second guessing her.

Yeah, little niggly things like that are hard to pick out in your own work, a lot of the time I need to get someone to go over my stuff and pick out moments where grammar or spelling fail me.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 11, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> It is the safest assumption that it will come into play, but the sentence could be alluding to basic survival or social trends towards skinniness (a very contrived metaphor that would be) over a scientific exploration. Basically it's Chee's story and I'm not keen on second guessing her.
> 
> Yeah, little niggly things like that are hard to pick out in your own work, a lot of the time I need to get someone to go over my stuff and pick out moments where grammar or spelling fail me.



Hmmm, it might be more of interpretation than second-guessing. And yes, it's a good practice edit a rough draft, actually helped with keeping the story I'm currently working on from having too much tension between the protagonists.


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## Tyrael (Jun 11, 2008)

Mad-Dog said:


> Hmmm, it might be more of interpretation than second-guessing. And yes, it's a good practice edit a rough draft, actually helped with keeping the story I'm currently working on from having too much tension between the protagonists.



Lol, are you sure that you can get too much tension? That said, this is very genre specific.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 11, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Lol, are you sure that you can get too much tension? That said, this is very genre specific.



Tension is the preset to actual fighting, and in my story I wanted to back away from that. *For now.*


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## Chee (Jun 11, 2008)

Whoa, hello! Lots of replies from that one sentence. xD



Taurus Versant said:


> As to your sentence there, Chee, all I can see needing is a little more bite to the guy disclaiming Charles Darwin. Give his words sting.



I wanted to give it just a slight bite at the end. Making the first part of the sentence sound like the character is praising Charles Darwin and at the very end make the character proclaim utter opposition.

I think I know what you mean, but I wanted to keep his negative comment short and to the point...like a crack of a whip. 



Mad-Dog said:


> let me take a crack at...



Oh my gosh, Bucky!
Not writing a scientific essay!

Man I love you though. 
Thanks for the advice, but I'd rather stick with a short and to the point opener.



Taurus Versant said:


> Seems a little formal to me, while I figured the effect looked for was an informal and blunt sentence from the perspective, but that's just my opinion.



Yea, that's what I was trying to do. I hope it worked. 



Mad-Dog said:


> What's wrong with the character speaking from a future tense? It'd actually be better if the starting sentence was foreshadowing the events to come in the novel as if we was much older.



Well, she's kind of...an informal character. I wanted her to sound like a quick, witty asshole instead of a science professor.



Tyrael said:


> I, for one, thought it was a very good opener Chee, you didn't reveal the characters position to the end yet slightly hinted through the sentence. It also raises the readers interest "evolution? Wolves? What's going on here?"
> 
> And I think you reveal a lot in the character Mad-Dog which may not be intended and it goes into more detail than maybe necessary, suggesting some sort of direct discussion of the argument. If the character is clinical and observant and very particular that first sentence would work though. Also:
> 
> ...



Thank you Tyrael. 

Well, I agree with you. I didn't want to explore the character to far in the first sentence (I have the whole novel for that), I just wanted to give out enough information to get the readers to ask more about why this character is back-talking the great Charles Darwin. 



Mad-Dog said:


> I'm not revealing anything that's already been stated in the raw sentence, I'm just stating that the evolutionairy theory has an appliance to what will happen in the story, and in the raw sentence it appears clinical/observant because it's foreshadowing something.
> 
> And if your willing to offer a critiscm, then I suggest you offer a better alternative as well.



I agree with you, but its to formal for my type of character. Thanks though.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 11, 2008)

Oh hell, I read that as a male persona. Silly me.


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## Chee (Jun 11, 2008)

Nah, I'm sure everybody did. I didn't specify.

The rest of the chapter is very "womanish" so...yea...xD


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## Tyrael (Jun 11, 2008)

I always presume that the main char is the same gender as the author if it is unspecified.

I'm gonna look like a right ass if you're male.


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## Chee (Jun 11, 2008)

I have a huge penis.

Nah, I'm a girl.


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## Batman (Jun 11, 2008)

few I had to take a break from my main stuff. I'm writing a short story atm, gonna see if I can restrict it to 10 pages. *crosses fingers*


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## Sky is Over (Jun 11, 2008)

Batman said:


> few I had to take a break from my main stuff. I'm writing a short story atm, gonna see if I can restrict it to 10 pages. *crosses fingers*



What's the story about?


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## Batman (Jun 11, 2008)

Mad-Dog said:


> What's the story about?



It's a story written in Black & White.


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## Tyrael (Jun 11, 2008)

Batman said:


> It's a story written in Black & White.



Sounds quirky. I'm writing a short story as well at the moment, although it might tip over into novella territory. I'll give you a race.


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## Batman (Jun 11, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Sounds quirky. I'm writing a short story as well at the moment, although it might tip over into novella territory. I'll give you a race.



your on. Will be a good way for me to stick to my 10 pg limit. Last time I tried it ended up around 40 or so.

any hints about the topic of your story, or is it one of th one's listed in your short short's thread?


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## Sky is Over (Jun 11, 2008)

Batman said:


> It's a story written in Black & White.



Hmmm, stupid question, does it involve the colors or race or what exactly, I'm a bit stumped.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 11, 2008)

I assume he means a sepia-toned writing style.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 11, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I assume he means a sepia-toned writing style.



Hmmm, after looking it up a bit, I could see what he's aiming for.


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## Batman (Jun 11, 2008)

kekekeke  I think the charm is in the ambiguity . I'll post it when it's done and ya'll can tell me if I captured it or not.


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## Chee (Jun 11, 2008)

Oh yea, this black and white topic reminded me: I'm a little confused on the term "ghostwriting".

I saw it in a movie called Russian Dolls and I was like: whut? 

Is it literally writing about ghosts or is it a style of writing or what?


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## Batman (Jun 11, 2008)

Chee said:


> Oh yea, this black and white topic reminded me: I'm a little confused on the term "ghostwriting".
> 
> I saw it in a movie called Russian Dolls and I was like: whut?
> 
> Is it literally writing about ghosts or is it a style of writing or what?



I was gonna type out my own def. then I remembered the joy of wikipedia. 



> is a professional writer who is paid to write books, articles, stories, reports, or other content which are officially credited to another person. Celebrities, executives, and political leaders often hire ghostwriters to draft or edit autobiographies, magazine articles, or other written material. In music, ghostwriters are used in classical music, film composition, and popular music such as top 40, country, and hip-hop. The ghostwriter is sometimes acknowledged by the author or publisher for their assistance.


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## Chee (Jun 11, 2008)

Ooooh, their like the ninja in the writing world.


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## Batman (Jun 11, 2008)

Chee said:


> Ooooh, their like the ninja in the writing world.



Their one in your room right now pretending to be a lamp.


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## Chee (Jun 12, 2008)

Batman said:


> Their one in your room right now pretending to be a lamp.



Wait...I don't have a lamp.

Oh my gods!


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 12, 2008)

They're that good. I call them my muse, but they keep going on those literature pirate hunting trips.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 12, 2008)

I have some new stuff from Tyrael to read but I woke up a while back and came back over here with an idea that I had to write along with some other things I needed to do and still need to do. But I'm working on something really short right now. Just a little piece that all ties into the big series.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 12, 2008)

Myself, I should really get onto reading some of the stuff posted here. It's only fair to do my best.


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## Tyrael (Jun 12, 2008)

Batman said:


> your on. Will be a good way for me to stick to my 10 pg limit. Last time I tried it ended up around 40 or so.
> 
> any hints about the topic of your story, or is it one of th one's listed in your short short's thread?



Let the battle commence. BD

It's not, it's an exploration of a few of themes present in _CA_ in a very surreal story. I plan to dip into some of the short short ideas after I've finished this though.



Lord Yu said:


> I assume he means a sepia-toned writing style.



Kinda the story version of your sig then? 



Chee said:


> Ooooh, their like the ninja in the writing world.



Lurk in shadows, shrouded in mystery...I'm not so sure about the whole turning into animal malarkey though.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I have some new stuff from Tyrael to read but I woke up a while back and came back over here with an idea that I had to write along with some other things I needed to do and still need to do. But I'm working on something really short right now. Just a little piece that all ties into the big series.



Take your time with it man, it's good to hear you've hit your groove again.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 12, 2008)

The story version of my sig would be awesome. Black Metal Osaka for the win!


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## Tyrael (Jun 12, 2008)

Bullied for years for having a face like anime, turns into a vicious tragedy, full of satanism, black metal and blood.

Could work.


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## Chee (Jun 12, 2008)

Black metal with a cute anime face? Shit, that would make a kick ass anime.


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## Batman (Jun 12, 2008)

^ Moezerk . . .


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## Tyrael (Jun 12, 2008)

Something like that exists...?

You know what, I'm not even surprised.


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## Chee (Jun 12, 2008)

Batman said:


> ^ Moezerk . . .



Damn, the idea was already taken? xD


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## Lord Yu (Jun 12, 2008)

I'm tempted to write fanfiction now.


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## Tyrael (Jun 12, 2008)

Go for it. Make it disturbing and with a smudged sense of morality.


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## Mori` (Jun 12, 2008)

so...I'm tempted to consider trying to formulate some kind of novel, or to at least begin on formulating some kind of novel whilst I have several completely free months. I thought I'd ask if you kind folks have any advice for actually starting out on a major piece of writing? I've had a few ideas kicking around but I have no idea if I should try develop something in particular first e.g. characters or whether I should try progress all the building blocks of the story at a similar pace. 

The latter seems harder to me because without one aspect e.g. plot then how do I develop something like character, but if I develop plot first do I then develop a character solely to fit to the plot requirements. The former strikes me as then setting a specific type of drive to the story and likely the first aspect developed would seem to be the strongest because everything else is subsequently at least somewhat dependant on it.

Basically I'm lost on where to start on anything!


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## Lord Yu (Jun 12, 2008)

I slap words to pages. I take the Gurren Lagann approach to writing.


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## Tyrael (Jun 12, 2008)

Ammanas said:


> so...I'm tempted to consider trying to formulate some kind of novel, or to at least begin on formulating some kind of novel whilst I have several completely free months. I thought I'd ask if you kind folks have any advice for actually starting out on a major piece of writing? I've had a few ideas kicking around but I have no idea if I should try develop something in particular first e.g. characters or whether I should try progress all the building blocks of the story at a similar pace.
> 
> The latter seems harder to me because without one aspect e.g. plot then how do I develop something like character, but if I develop plot first do I then develop a character solely to fit to the plot requirements. The former strikes me as then setting a specific type of drive to the story and likely the first aspect developed would seem to be the strongest because everything else is subsequently at least somewhat dependant on it.
> 
> Basically I'm lost on where to start on anything!



I think a music analogy is best fits your situation: some people write lyrics, some a melody, some a chord pattern. Is any of those ways better than any of the others? Hell no.

A novel, even a short one, is a huge undertaking; plot, theme, character, style. If you come up with a plot, just make up character that fit the plot then as you write it add twist and tweaks and the character will develop in your mind since part of what a person is is defined by context anyway, so why not in your novel also? Characters first? Your characters will wrap the plot around them and then the opposite will happen so you're left in the same situation-it never did Rowling any harm (not the best example but you get my point). Want to write about a theme? Then sit down and see what situations and characters flow from your mind around this theme.

Gene Wolfe said it best: "You can never learn to write a novel, you can only learn to write the novel you are writing." So sit down and write away.

A word of warning-pacing is a bitch. A bitch with sharp teeth and rabies and a tendency to bite. At first worry about your story, characters and grammar before you worry about that though.

tl;dr-what Yu said 'cept with a meaningful sounding quote in there.


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## Chee (Jun 12, 2008)

If you like writing from scratch do that, if you like planning then writing do that. Whichever you feel comfortable with. There is no right nor wrong in writing techniques.


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## Tyrael (Jun 12, 2008)

Chee said:


> If you like writing from scratch do that, if you like planning then writing do that. Whichever you feel comfortable with. There is no right nor wrong in writing techniques.



We agree! This ain't half an odd situation.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 13, 2008)

The best thing is to start from scratch. Just put down whatever ideas come to you as you go. Then, after a bit, read over, rearrange in your head, and combine with what you've already thought, and you'll have a mental first draft. You can type it out completely then (like I do) or write down points of it and try refining it further first (like I should >_<).


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## Tyrael (Jun 13, 2008)

Pacing, pacing, pacing. Anybody else hate it with a passion?

But it's the part of my style that gets me down-unless I go for a very focussed approach I end up saying all I need to say in 3 paragraphs.

Anybody got any useful advice or philosophies on the matter?


----------



## Serp (Jun 13, 2008)

Yo,  whats up guys.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 13, 2008)

Ever have that feeling where all your vocabulary just slips out of you and your writing is suddenly retarded. I mean you can write but the quality of it is crap? Yeah I have that right now.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 13, 2008)

Cue writing a one or two page nothing, that should help.


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## Tyrael (Jun 13, 2008)

Serp said:


> Yo,  whats up guys.



Drunken tirades of arrogance. The fact that you should ask that question at 1:30 is odd though. Another night of walking?



Lord Yu said:


> Ever have that feeling where all your vocabulary just slips out of you and your writing is suddenly retarded. I mean you can write but the quality of it is crap? Yeah I have that right now.



Not exactly with vocab, but yeah-it becomes dull exposition city.



Taurus Versant said:


> Cue writing a one or two page nothing, that should help.



One or two pages of nothing you mean?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 13, 2008)

I was doing some 4 am writing and it was like I forgot all sense of technique and I couldn't frame dialogue anymore.


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## Serp (Jun 13, 2008)

Im bored can't sleep  Writing is coming along though.


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## Batman (Jun 13, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Ever have that feeling where all your vocabulary just slips out of you and your writing is suddenly retarded. I mean you can write but the quality of it is crap? Yeah I have that right now.



Had that last week. I produced 20 pages of horse shit that have to rework probably from scratch.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 13, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I was doing some 4 am writing and it was like I forgot all sense of technique and I couldn't frame dialogue anymore.



What is with all you people being awake and doing things at those hours? If you're writing at 4am, it's no surprise you're forgetting things.


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## Chee (Jun 13, 2008)

I write most of my stuff at midnight, I don't know why but my mind works better. Maybe because I'm too busy doing the day and I finally buckle down and can write or something.


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## Batman (Jun 13, 2008)

4am is the new 10:45


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 13, 2008)

The world has gone crazy


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## Chee (Jun 13, 2008)

I blame it on summer, without this summer break I would have no writing done.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 13, 2008)

I write when I shouldn't, like now, when I should be doing school assignments.


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## Chee (Jun 13, 2008)

You're still in school? Dude, its like June, I thought all schools would be out by now. 

Oh, yea and I changed up the first sentence of my novel. I thought it was to straight forward and I wanted to establish my theme more subtely.

Here's the new one (with a couple of sentences added on. hahah)


> I hate dogs. Anything with a tail that wags back and forth monotonously is automatically draught down as 'dumb-drooling-mutt' in my book. Glen's pitbull that layed lazily on the ground just stared up at me stupidly as I sat on his couch in nothing but a A-cup bra and my pink panties. And for a while, I felt completely paranoid as his dog stared dully at my rolled up almost-butt-naked-body...as in I was rolled up in a ball because I am utterly afraid of dogs.



Critque? Yes, please?


----------



## Taurus Versant (Jun 13, 2008)

Haha, that's a wonderful little start. I wasn't sure about the word 'draught', but I can see lots of awesome coming from that opening there.

And I live in Australia, southern hemisphere and all that. So here it's 1:30pm, the big school holidays are over Christmas cause Christmas and Summer overlap and I live in the future, cause it's Saturday.

Fun times.

You should write more, I'd read it.


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## Batman (Jun 13, 2008)

Chee said:
			
		

> I hate dogs. Anything with a tail that wags back and forth monotonously is automatically draught down as 'dumb-drooling-mutt' in my book. Glen's pitbull that layed lazily on the ground just stared up at me stupidly as I sat on his couch in nothing but a A-cup bra and my pink panties. And for a while, I felt completely paranoid as his dog stared dully at my rolled up almost-butt-naked-body...as in I was rolled up in a ball because I am utterly afraid of dogs.



lol I like the opening line. It makes me want to read more. (also as a side note I don't really like dogs irl so I was automatically attached to the story from the get go, but that aside. . . )

Its interesting already, and it makes me want to read more. Just watch the adverbs, like stupidly, lazily. They're an added necessity that you don't really need. If you show me that he's laying on the ground and staring up at you with say (a blank expression) i get the sense that it's a lazy afternoon and the dog isn't the brightest biscuit in the . . . biscuit box.


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## Chee (Jun 13, 2008)

^^ Ah, okay! Thanks!

@Taurus: Oooh, is it true that right now its winter over there and we're in summer? 

Yea, I need to look up that word in the dictionary. 

Thanks! 
That's like my 15,000th try at a first sentence too. Ugh, I hope this one is interesting. I hate going back to the drawing board.


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## Batman (Jun 13, 2008)

I just assume everything I put down is crap and I'll fix it up during the editing process. Otherwise I'd never get to sentence 2, 3, & 4. 

Then a month later, while eating some ice cream, it's not so bad.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 13, 2008)

Batman knows how it works 

Seriously, a little bit of minor editing can work, but keep the general shape of this, as well as the direct opening. It's great.

And yeah, I'm in winter right now. It ain't fun.


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## Chee (Jun 13, 2008)

I'm too impatient to wait until the editing process sadly.

I think that if I don't get my first sentence right my second and third (and so on) will be all wrong too. I'm way to picky. 

All right, will do.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 13, 2008)

I look forward to reading it.


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## Chee (Jun 13, 2008)

If you like horror and adult works. It ain't butterflies and rainbows.

A couple of paragraphs down the girl gets beat by Glen (guy who owns the dog).


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 13, 2008)

Hey, a good story is a good story, I'll read it.


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## Chee (Jun 13, 2008)

lol, all right then.


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## Batman (Jun 13, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Batman knows how it works
> 
> Seriously, a little bit of minor editing can work, but keep the general shape of this, as well as the direct opening. It's great.
> 
> *And yeah, I'm in winter right now. It ain't fun*.



Does not compute!!  I'm in Texas and today it was hot as hell!!


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## Chee (Jun 13, 2008)

It was freakin 109 degrees in darn AZ.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 13, 2008)

Meanwhile, I had a cold this past week.


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## Batman (Jun 14, 2008)

109?? That's pretty damn hot! :S


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 14, 2008)

Lol Fahrenheit.


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## Chee (Jun 14, 2008)

Yea and its like this every single day (sunny, hot, no clouds, no rain). Shoot, that's why I can't go outside and read like ya'll peoples, I ruin my book pages with tons of sweat.


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## Batman (Jun 14, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Lol Fahrenheit.



Ah! I never thought of Centigrade till now. lol  I luv being on NF. It makes me feel so friggin global. 



> Yea and its like this every single day (sunny, hot, no clouds, no rain). Shoot, that's why I can't go outside and read like ya'll peoples, I ruin my book pages with tons of sweat.


 It's also nice to see the word 'ya'll' every so often. It keeps me grounded in my roots.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 14, 2008)

Batman said:


> Ah! I never thought of Centigrade till now. lol  I luv being on NF. It makes me feel so friggin global.



I hear ya so much on that point.


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## Chee (Jun 14, 2008)

Oh crap, I used ya'll? Dude, I'm not even southern. 

I think my book is rubbing off on me too much, all of my characters have southern accents. This sucks. 

--

Celcius confuses the hell out of me. I hate converting it.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 14, 2008)

Celsius makes more sense then. 0 is the melting point of pure water, and 100 is the boiling point. A nice range. I don't understand how Fahrenheit works at all.


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## Batman (Jun 14, 2008)

Nothing on this side of the world makes any sense. I swear they just picked some arbitrarily numbers just to be different.


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## Chee (Jun 14, 2008)

Eh, I grew up with F. I just see the numbers and relate it to hot or cold.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 14, 2008)

Batman said:


> Nothing on this side of the world makes any sense. I swear they just picked some arbitrarily numbers just to be different.


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## Tyrael (Jun 14, 2008)

Celsius is the winner for being well thought out. I did kinda have an odd moment where I heard 109 and my brain collapsed on itself.

I'm gonna agree with Batman, nice opening Chee but words like monotonously kind of spoiled the flow of the image. I take it King is a big influence?

How's the story comin' along Batman? I reckon I'm at 2/3 of the way through (4500 words).


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## Chee (Jun 14, 2008)

No, I think I tend to over-sprinkle with unneeded adjectives. 

Other then that, King is my main influence.


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## Tyrael (Jun 14, 2008)

Heh, you wanna see overdone adjectives? I'm going to upload half of the short story I'm writing soon and let you lot rip it apart.


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## Chee (Jun 14, 2008)

That's what the great editing process is for.


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## Tyrael (Jun 14, 2008)

Chee said:


> That's what the great editing process is for.



Unfortunately, my edits are neither great nor particularly a process. I daresay I will take a few more drafts of it though.


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## Serp (Jun 14, 2008)

I did a rewrite tell me what you think 


*Spoiler*: __ 




We had lived here, high up between the mountains, sheltered by acres of forest for over six hundred years, keeping ourselves to ourslves, the vast landscape and whole valley our playground. This is where my story starts.Ever since I was a child, it had been drilled in to me that the mongrels, the bitten ones, were far inferior to us, the pure.While this was true in a biological sense, our pure genes giving us the ability to change at will, it wasn't the reason that they were generally looked down apon. It was pure powerplay. The pures had the power, and mongrels obeyed or starved. They couldn't leave, for not only was leaving unthinkable to their wolf-wired brains, but would result in extermination by the hunters, to prevent pack secrets leaking out.


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## Tyrael (Jun 14, 2008)

Serp said:


> I did a rewrite tell me what you think
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



There is a lot of comma splice in there but your narrative voice is good and feels individual. Might be an idea to capitalise "Mongrels" and "Pures" to emphasise the divide.


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## Chee (Jun 14, 2008)

Serp said:


> I did a rewrite tell me what you think
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Is that the opening paragraph?

If it is I have some harsh critques, I don't sugarcoat things. Sorry. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



When you open your story up, I think the most important thing is to establish your character or story or plot (something that gets the ball rolling)...not the surroundings. I have a hard time getting into stories when it opens up and it talks about a green glimmering tree. Maybe that's my opinion, but I think a lot of other people have a hard time getting into a story when the overall "story" isn't present.
There are exceptions, but to me your opening sentence is boring. Sorry, it just talks about the landscape too much instead of setting off the story and character.

The opening line talks about the landscape twice and I thought that was very unneeded. 





> We had lived here, high up between the *mountains, sheltered by acres of forest* for over six hundred years, keeping ourselves to ourslves, the *vast landscape and whole valley *our playground.



The rest I believe shouldn't be in the opening paragraph. You have the entire story to establish your character's situation and past, you don't have to do it right now when you're trying to get readers interested.
I tell this to a lot of people because I think this is the most important thing people pass over. They tell the readers too much information way to early and that really drags the story and ultimately makes the reader loose interest.
There are exceptions of course.

The commas and periods need spaces after them. Sorry if I sound very picky. xD




I hope that helps and I don't sound like an officious bitch.


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## Serp (Jun 14, 2008)

There is spaces after the commas and full stops apart from one and yes I need to fix my comma splicing, after all grammar is where I fall short.

The reason it talks about the landscape twice was firstly it showed the area and secondly just that it was in fact where they lived, if you could show me a better way to put it across.

And I personally don't wanna jump strait into the story or plot, the plot is centered around a young werewolf and the problems he faces as he grows up, I don't know how to enter that into the opening paragraph with seeming to rush things.


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## Chee (Jun 14, 2008)

Well, my recommendation is something you won't like but its one of the things all authors should consider at one point at another. 
(I considered it, I did it, and I think it helped save my entire story from ending up in the shitter. Not saying that yours is, of course! xD)

Cut out that entire paragraph and start with something new. I'm not saying that you should do it, I'm saying that you should consider it. If you look at all of your favorite novels and look at how they begin, you can get a good idea of how to jumpstart your story.

The thing is, the opening paragraph is the "kicker", it gets the ball rolling. In my opinion, it should never be bogged down with lots of information. Information that you gave in your paragraph can be spread around your whole story. You have time for that, no need to rush it.
I think giving too much information out right then and there really bores your reader. Just my opinion.

Your plot is being centered around the life of a werewolf, correct? Maybe you can trigger something in the very first chapter that gets the character to go through nostalgia. Or maybe you can start it out with a trigger in his childhood, showing (not telling us) us that the Mongrels were the minority and that he was superiorty and go from there.

These are just my opinions. Really, you're the author so you have complete control over what you do and you should do what you feel is correct (not what I think is correct). I just think that the current paragraph doesn't "work" as a opening paragraph. It just doesn't hook me. =\


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## Serp (Jun 14, 2008)

I thank you for your advice, just one thing stop saying its something I'm not gonna like as that makes it seem, erm worse.


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## Tyrael (Jun 14, 2008)

Problem with rewriting part of the text is that you'll probably need to extensively rewrite most of it to keep that one part from being of a derivative style from the rest of the work. That said, it could use a good reworking, I personally say if you wanna start with location perhaps more detail is needed. Try and get a good feel of the surroundings.

Oh and I posted a third-ish of my short story in the illusions/illusions thread.


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## Chee (Jun 14, 2008)

^^ I disagree. If you want to start with landscape keep it short and to the point.

Dragging landscape descriptions out too much (and especially on the first sentence!) would be way to much for the readers.



Serp said:


> I thank you for your advice, just one thing stop saying its something I'm not gonna like as that makes it seem, erm worse.



Sorry. I wanted to be cautious. I got in trobule like 3 times on here for being way too "to-the-point".


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## Batman (Jun 14, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Celsius is the winner for being well thought out. I did kinda have an odd moment where I heard 109 and my brain collapsed on itself.
> 
> I'm gonna agree with Batman, nice opening Chee but words like monotonously kind of spoiled the flow of the image. I take it King is a big influence?
> 
> How's the story comin' along Batman? I reckon I'm at 2/3 of the way through (4500 words).



I'm not as far along as you are, roughly 3k words. But I'm trying to figure out something that I think the stories missing. It's sounding ok but it's a bit too much sizzle atm.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 14, 2008)

I can't write short. The Unbroken Chain is 16,000 words right now, and no way is it past the half way point. >_<


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## graysocks (Jun 14, 2008)

Damn Chee i'm a bit disappointed i repped you for your sig before i read your post, i agree completely. The start is of huge importance, i don't know how many books i've given up on after the first few pages because i just didn't care enough to keep it going.


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## Chee (Jun 14, 2008)

The biggest thing I find in the writing process (besides the story itself, of course) is the hook. It's the first impression. It's like your judgement day written on a paper awaiting dispproval or approval by an editor...biggest thing to me.

If that opening isn't good...and your planning to publish...hahah! You can bet your story would end up in the trash! If publishers aren't interested then their not going to invest their time and money in you. The chances are if it didn't interest them its not going to interest readers and thus you failed as a wanna-be-published author if no one bothers to read your hard-worked-novel.

It just bothers me a lot when I see "He woke up and looked around his suroundings," or "The sun peaked over the hill as she watched it rise solemly," as the opening line. It just screams with "It was a dark and stormy night..." syndrome. Ugh.  (with exceptions. )

To put it simply: glad you agree and I'm glad you like my sig.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 14, 2008)

I swear I'm going to open a book with "It was a dark and stormy night". But of course it will be when I make my attempt at horrible literature.

I really need to get forward on my current project or all my lovely ideas will get stale. Maybe I should make 3 separate outlines of each story path.


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## Chee (Jun 14, 2008)

Is your current project a full length novel?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 14, 2008)

My current project is a full novel that could turn into a series depending on a variety of things. I have enough material for several full books.


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## Chee (Jun 15, 2008)

Oooh, what is the overall story?

I think I've asked this before...but I don't remember.
But it makes conversation.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2008)

I've explained it three times and I'm too lazy to go over it now. Starts simple the flips on to epic stuff.


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## Chee (Jun 15, 2008)

Okay, no problem. I'd be sick of explaining it too. xD


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## Batman (Jun 15, 2008)

I keep trying to respond to posts, but end up doubling over in laughter at Chee's sig.  She's so old and hopeful. lol


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2008)

Deep down there's still a Hinatard that feels sad for. But these days I could give flying fudge about pairings in Naruto.

On topic: It's so hard to produce the feeling I need to best express my style. It's such a heavy cocktail of emotions that the trigger is different each time. Maybe if I found something else to do than sit around and think.


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## Tyrael (Jun 15, 2008)

Chee said:


> ^^ I disagree. If you want to start with landscape keep it short and to the point.
> 
> Dragging landscape descriptions out too much (and especially on the first sentence!) would be way to much for the readers.
> 
> ...



It's cool to have strong opinions but expect people here to challenge you if they disagree. 

As for this stuff, the setting itself for many readers may be the hook. Describing a well thought out and vivid landscape quivering with potential will get you a lot of readers in the fantasy market.



Batman said:


> I'm not as far along as you are, roughly 3k words. But I'm trying to figure out something that I think the stories missing. It's sounding ok but it's a bit too much sizzle atm.



So that means I was winning at that point? Woo! (Please note I failed to write anything yesterday so...)



Taurus Versant said:


> I can't write short. The Unbroken Chain is 16,000 words right now, and no way is it past the half way point. >_<



Don't you just love that idea though? You've done such a lot yet so much lies ready to be written? I think it's a great feeling.


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## Chee (Jun 15, 2008)

> As for this stuff, the setting itself for many readers may be the hook. Describing a well thought out and vivid landscape quivering with potential will get you a lot of readers in the fantasy market.



Maybe if its REALLY unique, but describing trees and plants for 15 sentences ain't my thing. Difference of opinion, I just think opening up talking about a tree doesn't get the story going. The first sentence is a hook and in my opinion: trees aren't hooks.


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## Tyrael (Jun 15, 2008)

Chee said:


> Maybe if its REALLY unique, but describing trees and plants for 15 sentences ain't my thing. Difference of opinion, I just think opening up talking about a tree doesn't get the story going. The first sentence is a hook and in my opinion: trees aren't hooks.



Indeed, it's all particular to author and fan alike. And no one says setting has to consist of trees, or even purely physical description. The odd landmark or small scrap of history can be thrown in to give a more genuine feel-all you are doing is creating surroundings so readers can feel a more complete world. Depends how important world-building is to readers or if there is an atmosphere or situation it needs to imply.

There is also something definitively that connotes a beginning about introducing the context. It is a story capital letter so to speak.

I'm not trying to say that is better than cutting to dialogue or action or some other hook, but it's no less feasible in my opinion.


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## Chee (Jun 15, 2008)

I was using trees as a metaphor for everything green and plant-like (scenery, setting, landscape...same things ). Not specifically trees. 

I think a good author (exceptions!) knows how to describe their worlds within the whole novel (like I say many times: you have the whole entire story to establish your story, characters, background, setting, plot, antagonists etc. Pace it correctly, you have the time). The priority of the first sentence is "getting the ball rolling." Cause you want the ball to roll, the reader and editors and publishers want the ball to roll. If the ball runs into the tree when it first starts rolling (so to speak) it simply just stops.

Now, I'm not saying that you shouldn't describe your setting in your first chapter, not saying that at all. I'm saying that you should know _when_ to introduce your setting. The first sentence just doesn't seem like the place to me. If you think it is, go ahead, these are just my opinions.

There are probably exceptions to this, and I'm not saying you shouldn't start your novel with describing the scenery...its just I think its MUCH wiser to get the ball rolling and describe later.

Stephen King's _IT_ for example. He hooks us first, and then describes the setting. Because we're hooked and so we read on. If he started off _IT_ with the second paragraph, it wouldn't have worked for me. I probably would've put it down and give it back to my grandma.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2008)

Ever think that if you don't aim the ball it'll hit a dead end? Story frame can be just as important as plot and in some cases more important.


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## Chee (Jun 15, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Ever think that if you don't aim the ball it'll hit a dead end? Story frame can be just as important as plot and in some cases more important.



Agreed. 

I think that can be summed up in: bad writing, though.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2008)

You have much to learn.


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## Chee (Jun 15, 2008)

I have plently of years for it.


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## Tyrael (Jun 15, 2008)

Chee said:


> I was using trees as a metaphor for everything green and plant-like (scenery, setting, landscape...same things ). Not specifically trees.
> 
> I think a good author (exceptions!) knows how to describe their worlds within the whole novel (like I say many times: you have the whole entire story to establish your story, characters, background, setting, plot, antagonists etc. Pace it correctly, you have the time). The priority of the first sentence is "getting the ball rolling." Cause you want the ball to roll, the reader and editors and publishers want the ball to roll. If the ball runs into the tree when it first starts rolling (so to speak) it simply just stops.
> 
> ...



Admittedly I wasn't quite thinking within the frame of the first sentence exactly, so some of my arguments aren't quite valid and I agree that spewing it out to quick rather than building a full picture across the story is definitely not the way to go.

In fact, there are so many ways to start a book arguing on such general terms is kinda stupid, lol. I think the best mantra is only the author knows the best way to start their book.



Lord Yu said:


> Ever think that if you don't aim the ball it'll hit a dead end? Story frame can be just as important as plot and in some cases more important.



Ah, but that analogy is kinda not quite right. The fact is that Chee's talking about giving the story a clear idea from the outset and the setting doesn't do that. I don't agree with that, but in any case the idea is that she is aiming early.

Edit-Damned my slow typing.

Edit2-As do you Yu.


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## Chee (Jun 15, 2008)

^^ Agreed.

I think there are many ways to start your novel, but I think people have to be wise about it. Just don't go starting off your novel with a tree if your story isn't about trees. 

Okay, I'm confused. Is Lord Yu talking about the whole story in general or the first sentence? 
Cause I thought he was simply talking about a story going in the shitter because the opening sentence "wasn't aimed correctly".


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## Tyrael (Jun 15, 2008)

Chee said:


> ^^ Agreed.
> 
> I think there are many ways to start your novel, but I think people have to be wise about it. Just don't go starting off your novel with a tree if your story isn't about trees.



_A tree sat on the lawn; a tree, large of both stature and presence-overbearing; wrinkles on its brown surface winding like snakes constricting; light reflecting off the leaves, translucent in morning dew; miniature hills of great curving roots protruding through the bare earth and breaking the other wise flat lawn: yes, it was a tree alright._


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Edit2-As do you Yu.



We all do. that's why this thread exists. 

Also that above line could be used to emphasize the boredom of a character.


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## Chee (Jun 15, 2008)

You can make millions off of that.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2008)

Chee said:


> ^^ Agreed.
> 
> I think there are many ways to start your novel, but I think people have to be wise about it. Just don't go starting off your novel with a tree if your story isn't about trees.
> 
> ...



Also, I was referring to experimental stories. To not examine plot nor character, just how everything hangs in it's frame.


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## Tyrael (Jun 15, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> We all do. that's why this thread exists.
> 
> Also that above line could be used to emphasize the boredom of a character.



Agreed on both points. Although I'd have to have a very very good transition to make it work.



Lord Yu said:


> Also, I was referring to experimental stories. To not examine plot nor character, just how everything hangs in it's frame.



That is an intriguing idea...define frame.



Chee said:


> You can make millions off of that.



I intend to .

Stephen King better guard his monopoly well. A new giant is in town.


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## Chee (Jun 15, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> We all do. that's why this thread exists.
> 
> Also that above line could be used to emphasize the boredom of a character.



It could, but it could also emphasize the boredom of the reader.


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## Tyrael (Jun 15, 2008)

Chee said:


> It could, but it could also emphasize the boredom of the reader.



I'd make sure and put thirteen or fourteen pages of publisher's blah blah and foreword before it-so that they'd only read it once they had bought it. Muahahahaha


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## Chee (Jun 15, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I'd make sure and put thirteen or fourteen pages of publisher's blah blah and foreword before it-so that they'd only read it once they had bought it. Muahahahaha



Sneaky devil you.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> That is an intriguing idea...define frame.



Two people are looking at a picture and one says "Thats a nice picture"  and the other says "That's a nice frame". 

I guess I could attempt to exemplify but I need to improve my skills a little more.


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## Chee (Jun 15, 2008)

So your saying that the picture is only as good as the frame? Meaning if you have a good idea for a story but if the structure doesn't work then it won't work?

I think I'm slow. lolwtfbbq


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2008)

I think you're getting the idea.


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## Tyrael (Jun 15, 2008)

Wait, what's a barbecue got to do with anything?

Anyway, so basically you are analysing the narrative framework? Such as what _Catch-22 _ has none of?


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## Chee (Jun 15, 2008)

lolwtfbbq? It's just something I picked up in the fanclub section. It's nothing. xD


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2008)

I need to read that book. I only have a vague idea of what I am talking about.


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## Tyrael (Jun 15, 2008)

Chee said:


> lolwtfbbq? It's just something I picked up in the fanclub section. It's nothing. xD



Damn, and there was me hoping there'd be free food.



Lord Yu said:


> I need to read that book. I only have a vague idea of what I am talking about.



As do we all.

I, however, cannot recommend _Catch-22_ enough. It's weird, silly, unconventional, thick, hilarious, depressing, poignant, powerful...A bit of an acquired taste though and a hard read.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2008)

Now if I can just push through Memories of Ice. Oh why oh why do I persist on this series of weak introductions? But save that for the convo thread.


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## Chee (Jun 15, 2008)

^^ I heard that its a 10 part series? Any good?


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## Sky is Over (Jun 15, 2008)

And speaking of hooking readers, can a dream sequence foreshadowing some of the events in a novel be a good method?


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## Tyrael (Jun 15, 2008)

Chee said:


> ^^ I heard that its a 10 part series? Any good?



Well, you'll have to wait for the second book for a hook.



Mad-Dog said:


> And speaking of hooking readers, can a dream sequence foreshadowing some of the events in a novel be a good method?



Absolutely, although a bit cliche, it can be fantastic and very engaging.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 15, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Well, you'll have to wait for the second book for a hook.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely, although a bit cliche, it can be fantastic and very engaging.



Good, good, good; I thought about doing it with the series I'm going foward with, it'd be kind of like a special intro that foreshadows some important events in each novels. Actually, it's the main protagonist that has dreams/visions.


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## Tyrael (Jun 15, 2008)

Mad-Dog said:


> Good, good, good; I thought about doing it with the series I'm going foward with, it'd be kind of like a special intro that foreshadows some important events in each novels. Actually, it's the main protagonist that has dreams/visions.



Like anything, if it's well written and executed it is all good.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 15, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Like anything, if it's well written and executed it is all good.



Well, the way it goes is that he ends up asking a question on what he sees in his dream/vision, and the voice of an "agent" awnsers his questions. It's a bit basic, but might work.


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## Tyrael (Jun 15, 2008)

Mad-Dog said:


> Well, the way it goes is that he ends up asking a question on what he sees in his dream/vision, and the voice of an "agent" awnsers his questions. It's a bit basic, but might work.



Just be careful not reveal too much too early and that has potential.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 15, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Just be careful not reveal too much too early and that has potential.



Hey, can I shoot at you some ideas I have for the first novel involving the prologue?


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## Chee (Jun 16, 2008)

Mad-Dog said:


> And speaking of hooking readers, can a dream sequence foreshadowing some of the events in a novel be a good method?



Absolutely! Stephen King uses this method a lot and he totally wins with it. 

Be careful though, or it will look like a horrible soap opera.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 16, 2008)

Grar, I've gotta start keeping a notepad on me. I brainstormed about ten separate ideas for Breaking the Chains today between the time I got on the bus to the time I started homework this afternoon.


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## Tyrael (Jun 16, 2008)

Mad-Dog said:


> Hey, can I shoot at you some ideas I have for the first novel involving the prologue?



Go for it.



Taurus Versant said:


> Grar, I've gotta start keeping a notepad on me. I brainstormed about ten separate ideas for Breaking the Chains today between the time I got on the bus to the time I started homework this afternoon.



I know the feeling, and I've got a horrible memory, but I presume it'll all work out as I write. It's annoying when you coursework/homework to do yet your own creative endeavours keep swimming around your head isn't it?


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## Sky is Over (Jun 16, 2008)

> Absolutely! Stephen King uses this method a lot and he totally wins with it.



I actually got it from Betterman per say. 



> Go for it.



Well, raw and straight to the point, a voice in a dream tells him that he will be involved in a battle, he will die in the batlle, and he will be reborn to hold the powers of death. Pretty much it's describing the end, but not how it'll be achieved.


----------



## Tyrael (Jun 16, 2008)

Mad-Dog said:


> I actually got it from Betterman per say.
> 
> Well, raw and straight to the point, a voice in a dream tells him that he will be involved in a battle, he will die in the batlle, and he will be reborn to hold the powers of death. Pretty much it's describing the end, but not how it'll be achieved.



It might, in that specific case, serve to kind of spoil the ending. I would not make it quite so blatant-maybe one of these obnoxious riddles us fantasy writers like so much that only comes clear at the end.

On the other hand, it does depend how you lead up to his death. If you can make it a major theme that he knows of this impending death then it might work, as well as a very well thought out method of rebirth and purpose to it. On the whole I'd advise against it though.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jun 16, 2008)

I tend to use dream sequences/daydreams to establish links and sometimes evolution.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 16, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> It might, in that specific case, serve to kind of spoil the ending. I would not make it quite so blatant-maybe one of these obnoxious riddles us fantasy writers like so much that only comes clear at the end.
> 
> On the other hand, it does depend how you lead up to his death. If you can make it a major theme that he knows of this impending death then it might work, as well as a very well thought out method of rebirth and purpose to it. On the whole I'd advise against it though.



Hmmm, then how about narrated riddle for a prologue?

And concerning the one I'm working with right now, I'm aiming to only to declare what will happen to the main protagonist a bit near the end of the story, and nothing really outside or further beyond that.


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## Chee (Jun 16, 2008)

A narrated riddle? Like something that the main character follows throughout the story or something?


----------



## Tyrael (Jun 16, 2008)

Mad-Dog said:


> Hmmm, then how about narrated riddle for a prologue?
> 
> And concerning the one I'm working with right now, I'm aiming to only to declare what will happen to the main protagonist a bit near the end of the story, and nothing really outside or further beyond that.



Narrated riddle would be better, especially if it contains information that only seems sensible in hindsight, thus meaning your readers will look back and go "so that's what it meant." Therefore you can work the prophecy idea in there without being explicit.

I'd only go for blatancy if the plot twists itself aren't the main point, rather the idea of expectancy and build up to a cataclysmic event.

I've just eaten and am really full if anybody wonders why the above might not be completely coherent.


----------



## Chee (Jun 17, 2008)

I was formatting my manuscript yesterday but I don't know how big the margins are supposed to be. Are they supposed to be 1" or 1.5"? 

Damn Microsft Word was being a bitch to me when I tried to format my page to the center. Haaaate it.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 17, 2008)

I just use default.


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## Tyrael (Jun 17, 2008)

Chee said:


> I was formatting my manuscript yesterday but I don't know how big the margins are supposed to be. Are they supposed to be 1" or 1.5"?
> 
> Damn Microsft Word was being a bitch to me when I tried to format my page to the center. Haaaate it.



In A5 format I use 1.27" or something like that. Is accuracy needed? I'm sure Bats knows the correct format used in printing or submitting or something. I tend to just run with it if it looks alright.


----------



## Chee (Jun 17, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> In A5 format I use 1.27" or something like that. Is accuracy needed? I'm sure Bats knows the correct format used in printing or submitting or something. I tend to just run with it if it looks alright.



I have no idea what A5 is...but I use 20 lb copier paper.


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## Tyrael (Jun 17, 2008)

Chee said:


> I have no idea what A5 is...but I use 20 lb copier paper.



Smaller than A4-but that probably means nothing to you either-American/Europe divide? Lbs=pounds(weight) to me.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2008)

I need to get back in the stride of writing really.


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## Tyrael (Jun 17, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I need to get back in the stride of writing really.



Story 4 lost momentum?


----------



## Chee (Jun 17, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Smaller than A4-but that probably means nothing to you either-American/Europe divide? Lbs=pounds(weight) to me.



Yea, I don't understand A4s and B5 stuff. 

Honestly, I don't understand why it is called 20 lb paper. It's really not 20 pounds.


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## Tyrael (Jun 17, 2008)

Chee said:


> Yea, I don't understand A4s and B5 stuff.
> 
> Honestly, I don't understand why it is called 20 lb paper. It's really not 20 pounds.



B5? Sounds like a test. Are you formatting just to make the manuscript look pretty or are you sending it off somewhere official or something like that?

Maybe the whole pack of paper weigh 20 lbs?


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## Chee (Jun 17, 2008)

Formatting for practice right now. I'll be sending off a professional manuscript to a publisher whenever I finish my book. Which is why I'm wondering what the margins are supposed to be. I checked on some websites but some mention one inch and some mention one and a half inches. 

I just picked it up, its like a pound. xD


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2008)

I have had a lot of stuff going on and no time to write


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## Tyrael (Jun 17, 2008)

Chee said:


> Formatting for practice right now. I'll be sending off a professional manuscript to a publisher whenever I finish my book. Which is why I'm wondering what the margins are supposed to be. I checked on some websites but some mention one inch and some mention one and a half inches.
> 
> I just picked it up, its like a pound. xD



As far as I can tell you have to send a manuscript off to a literary agent before the publisher-very few publishers accept manuscripts that don't first go through literary agents. I've done a fair bit of research but stopped when it kinda started depressing me-the writing's a doddle compared to publishing and marketing. Still, gonna have to give it a go someday.

Not 20? I daresay you'd have to have a damn sight lot of them I guess.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I have had a lot of stuff going on and no time to write



Bad luck man, crazy schedule?


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## Chee (Jun 17, 2008)

As long as you send a good query letter than most publishers will accept the first three chapters of the manuscript without an agent (from what I heard from a couple of publishers).

But yea, I'll try agents and that's what I meant when I said publishers. It's easier to group them all together.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2008)

It's because of work...I hate my job.


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## Chee (Jun 17, 2008)

More the reason to finish your novel then.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2008)

Well I did plan out the next drawing I am having done and a few other little things for the stories.


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## Chee (Jun 17, 2008)

That's good. You have something done.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 17, 2008)

17 pages. I'm going at incredible speed compared to my old rate. I should run an anime marathon. I need weaboo power to boost my production.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2008)

I know that I need to get out and do some writing with the characters that I have. I have too many characters I have made up that I don't use enough and write with enough. I have so many characters who I adore but I feel like I don't get to write about them enough (like Doctor Mandi Johnson, Stroud Patterson, etc). Its like I can't find the right vessel for them to work with, But I kind of want to do some short stuff with them in it too.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 17, 2008)

I have too many ideas and too little structure. I need to organize my ideas. My ADD rattled brain is going to explode.


----------



## Tyrael (Jun 17, 2008)

Chee said:


> As long as you send a good query letter than most publishers will accept the first three chapters of the manuscript without an agent (from what I heard from a couple of publishers).
> 
> But yea, I'll try agents and that's what I meant when I said publishers. It's easier to group them all together.



Really? Gonna have to remember that.

And yeah publishers/agents/smelly old men-it's all the same.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It's because of work...I hate my job.



I need a job, glad to hear the world of work is so fulfilling.



Lord Yu said:


> 17 pages. I'm going at incredible speed compared to my old rate. I should run an anime marathon. I need weaboo power to boost my production.



As in 17 A4 pages type 12? How long has it taken you anyway? I'm averaging 1000 words a night, which is pretty slow. 

Hoping to have that short story finished tonight-I'll post it when it's done and I expect lots of harsh critiques. The harsher the better.


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## Chee (Jun 17, 2008)

^^ It's different for different publishrs. Some allow, some don't. You have to check out their requirements.

---

Opposite with me. Too little ideas. 

As for the 17 pages, is it all double spaced?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 17, 2008)

12 point font 
10954 words. 

I can sometimes average a sentence a day. I'm sloooow. I have alot of ideas but words for the moment tend to fail me unless I'm in a specific mood or a climactic moment.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 17, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Narrated riddle would be better, especially if it contains information that only seems sensible in hindsight, thus meaning your readers will look back and go "so that's what it meant." Therefore you can work the prophecy idea in there without being explicit.
> 
> I'd only go for blatancy if the plot twists itself aren't the main point, rather the idea of expectancy and build up to a cataclysmic event.
> 
> I've just eaten and am really full if anybody wonders why the above might not be completely coherent.



I will change my prologue to something involving that; and what's the best way to describe an object or a scene?


----------



## Tyrael (Jun 17, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I know that I need to get out and do some writing with the characters that I have. I have too many characters I have made up that I don't use enough and write with enough. I have so many characters who I adore but I feel like I don't get to write about them enough (like Doctor Mandi Johnson, Stroud Patterson, etc). Its like I can't find the right vessel for them to work with, But I kind of want to do some short stuff with them in it too.



Sometimes some characters have got to fade into obscurity once they have no real relevance any longer. Naruto is currently suffering from too many redundant yet present characters.



Lord Yu said:


> I have too many ideas and too little structure. I need to organize my ideas. My ADD rattled brain is going to explode.



Ditto'd. 'Cept I don't have Attention Deficit Disorder. How long has that 11k taken you to write? Can't be slower than me.

@mad-dog: We're talking about the fundamentals of writing right? You're favourite authors can answer that better than I ever do. Skim through some books and think about how it is presented and what you want to communicate then just let your mind unwind onto the paper.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 17, 2008)

Oh how incredible life would be without ADD.

I'm also unmedicated.


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## Tyrael (Jun 17, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Oh how incredible life would be without ADD.
> 
> I'm also unmedicated.



It has it's moments. I daresay it's easier but a lot more boring.

How incredibly odd life must be with ADD-although normality is relative. I would imagine that'd make writing bloody hard.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 17, 2008)

I use music as a makeshift filter for my brain. Writing is a nightmare with ADD but I manage.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Sometimes some characters have got to fade into obscurity once they have no real relevance any longer. Naruto is currently suffering from too many redundant yet present characters.



Well that's just it...I never got to use many of them. Mandi you seem mentioned periodically as the doctor. And then Stroud is always background, I planned a story with him but its hard for me to set it up.


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## Chee (Jun 17, 2008)

I trash any useless characters. I love them to death but if they don't make the story progress and I can't find a way for them to, I just throw them out. =\

Did that with a favorite main character of mine. It was painful, but it had to be done.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 17, 2008)

Well they serve their small roles, but its just I wish I could find a vessel for them to work independently. I mean I don't know of a story type I can have with a doctor main character


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## Chee (Jun 17, 2008)

You should probably wait on it then. That's what I usually do and then I get hit with an idea and I work with it.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 17, 2008)

I find new uses for old characters.


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## Chee (Jun 17, 2008)

I need a better word for "got out".

As in: He got out of the car.

Any help?


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## Batman (Jun 18, 2008)

Chee said:


> I need a better word for "got out".
> 
> As in: He got out of the car.
> 
> Any help?



exited
stumbled from
hopped
stepped
eased
He left (the vehicle)


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## Sky is Over (Jun 18, 2008)

Chee said:


> I need a better word for "got out".
> 
> As in: He got out of the car.
> 
> Any help?



exited 
walked out
opened the door and stepped out
swung the door open, bot hfeet landing on the ground as he exited

That's all I can come up with.

@Batman, the girl in your sig, what's that from?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2008)

The girl is from Shining Tears.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 18, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> The girl is from Shining Tears.



Thnx for the invoice.


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## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

Thanks for the words.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 18, 2008)

I thought about doing a stand alone story but in the same universe featuring the Mandi character, although I have no idea what she would be doing as far as story besides it would have to be something slightly medical that would require a doctor. But something still exciting and supernatural. The Mandi character is based on a real person, but she's just the kind of quirky silly character I like to write... 



That's the actual girl she's based on. But I am trying to go over and see if there is anything in my old story ideas I can build off of. This would be an original story, but it might borrow characters and mythology from my series.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 18, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I thought about doing a stand alone story but in the same universe featuring the Mandi character, although I have no idea what she would be doing as far as story besides it would have to be something slightly medical that would require a doctor. But something still exciting and supernatural. The Mandi character is based on a real person, but she's just the kind of quirky silly character I like to write...
> 
> 
> 
> That's the actual girl she's based on. But I am trying to go over and see if there is anything in my old story ideas I can build off of. This would be an original story, but it might borrow characters and mythology from my series.



Hmmm, personally, unless they're on the level of a BFF and have know that they're being written into the novel, I wouldn't do it. But if otherwise, go for it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 18, 2008)

Mad-Dog said:


> Hmmm, personally, unless they're on the level of a BFF and have know that they're being written into the novel, I wouldn't do it. But if otherwise, go for it.



We were really close and the character is only based on her, its not an exact name or exact look or anything of the sort, but the personality is largely based off. Most of what I am going for is the personality and the feel of being around here because for the most part she was probably one of the most charismatic and nice people I have know without trying it seemed. She could rally support for something so easily and look so out of place doing it.


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## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2008)

Chee said:


> I trash any useless characters. I love them to death but if they don't make the story progress and I can't find a way for them to, I just throw them out. =\
> 
> Did that with a favorite main character of mine. It was painful, but it had to be done.



Agreed, it's really, really hard but you shouldn't hang on to useless chars. I've got a character who doesn't have a focussed enough role but his presence is necessary to strongly evoke one of the key theme without which the book loses much of its purpose so I can't really trash him.



Chee said:


> I need a better word for "got out".
> 
> As in: He got out of the car.
> 
> Any help?



I always avoid the word got, for no real reason.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> We were really close and the character is only based on her, its not an exact name or exact look or anything of the sort, but the personality is largely based off. Most of what I am going for is the personality and the feel of being around here because for the most part she was probably one of the most charismatic and nice people I have know without trying it seemed. She could rally support for something so easily and look so out of place doing it.



I'm gonna agree that basing characters on real people ain't a bad thing as generally you will twist the character so much they won't really be recognisable anyway.

Oh and Batman I'm fini'd-I win or..?


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 18, 2008)

No, 'got' is a word I avoid as well. I think it breaks up the syntax of most writings.


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## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> No, 'got' is a word I avoid as well. I think it breaks up the syntax of most writings.



And it's good practice with synonyms.

Here's the completed short story:



Leave comments here or there, or wherever.


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## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

I avoid "got" as well. Sounds stupid anyways.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 18, 2008)

Yeah she will be pretty twisted up when I get done with her. I add to their pasts and make their up bringing interesting, yet try to keep their personality in the ballpark. Lets say that its like I try to imagine what certain things would have an effect on this person I know and use it.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2008)

Since I couldn't get through a regular outline I decided to do a greater arc outline. Finally I can map out my larger ideas.


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## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

Ugh, I hate outlining novels (soooo long). But its needed, cause I really have no idea where my story is heading.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2008)

I've been so desperate to get my ideas written down somewhere but I always hit a brick wall on regular outlines.


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## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I've been so desperate to get my ideas written down somewhere but I always hit a brick wall on regular outlines.



Write the ideas in a notebook randomly. I do that when I can't get an outline done.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2008)

I hate my handwriting, I take notes on the computer. I'd never read anything in a notebook.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 18, 2008)

Chee said:


> Ugh, I hate outlining novels (soooo long). But its needed, cause I really have no idea where my story is heading.



I don't even do it anymore, i just follow what I feel when writing it.


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## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

Mad-Dog said:


> I don't even do it anymore, i just follow what I feel when writing it.



I used to do that, but after awhile it felt very random and unorganized. =\

But a lot of people find this method useful. I just don't happen to use it.


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## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2008)

Outlines are often necessary and useful, but I think the best mantra is not to get too caught-up in it. I wrote my novel after an outline finally managed to give it proper structure then it ended up completely different. I always remember Pratchett saying that "_If you don't know where you are going after 10 000 words then there is no hope for you._"

Since I pretty much worship Pratchett I took those words to heart.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2008)

I know where I'm going after 10000 words. It's just i don't know where I'm going to end.


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## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

I'm not even close to 10,000 words.


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## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2008)

10k ain't that much if you've got a decent routine, I recently did 7.5k in 9ish days, which I consider slow going. The decent routine bit, however, is the hard part.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2008)

I remember being able to put out 25-26 pages in a day if I REALLY got going.


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## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

I can get up to 1,000 words a week. Mostly cause I get tried of writing.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 18, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I remember being able to put out 25-26 pages in a day if I REALLY got going.



I have been completely surpassed. I think my record is eleven, which was a night long ago where I started a story and just kept going. Usually I do it in chapters of 4-5 pages.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2008)

ADD and anal retentiveness are perhaps the only reasons I don't have this whole book done by now. I've already thrown out a books worth of material. Now I have perhaps three books worth of material mapped out. My ending problem comes with the idea of a 4th "aftermath" arc.


----------



## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I remember being able to put out 25-26 pages in a day if I REALLY got going.



Wow...that's intense. I remember balking at hearing Bats talk of 7.5k a day but 25 pages?



Chee said:


> I can get up to 1,000 words a week. Mostly cause I get tried of writing.



It's bloody tough eh? It's good to try and get that a up a bit, I rarely tire of writing while doing it though but as of late I've been a bit restless at times while doing it. Happens with everything I guess.

Edit-11 pages is still a lot Taurus.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2008)

When I enjoy a character the words can sometimes flow in a river.


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## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2008)

Agreed that, although it shouldn't, can make a huge difference.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Jun 18, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Wow...that's intense. I remember balking at hearing Bats talk of 7.5k a day but 25 pages?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's only happened once.


----------



## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

The problem, I think, lies with my re-reading. I constantly re-read the chapter when its not done yet and then I get picky and trash it and start all over. 

My current chapter I've been working on just completely stopped though. I didn't re-read, but towards the middle I didn't know how to finish it all up. Ugh.


----------



## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2008)

Hey, my best is only about 2/3k words which is just over two pages.

Edit-Chee I hate re-reading my own work and don't do it at all. I also don't really like changing it when it is written, but that's unavoidable as it happens.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2008)

I don't think I've ever read anything I've written in it's entirety. I get to embarrassed or I feel very sour.


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## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I don't think I've ever read anything I've written in it's entirety. I get to embarrassed or I feel very sour.



For me it pales in comparison with the moment that was written, the imaginative spark used to create it, as it just reads as a lot of words badly stuck together.


----------



## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

Yea, I'm trying not to re-read my work since it disrupts the writing flow. I can't help it sometimes though.


----------



## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2008)

Chee said:


> Yea, I'm trying not to re-read my work since it disrupts the writing flow. I can't help it sometimes though.



I get that when I am music writing, but it probably differs, I just like to hear how the current thing sounds (and maybe rub my ego slightly).


----------



## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

Haha, ego. =P

I just re-read it cause I know there are mistakes and it taunts me to look up. D:


----------



## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2008)

I am nothing if not egotistical.

I remember the best advice was that which King gave-don't do anything to spoil your flow, spelling and grammar mistakes won't go away, no point in interrupting the moment between imagination and paper (those were the sentiments).


----------



## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

Ah, I remember that one. Not even go to the bathroom if you can help it. xD

I probably should do that. Lock myself up with nothing but pencil and paper.


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## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2008)

According to Herbert forcing words out and being captured in the artistic flow yields the same results, so, it may work.

I tried to start writing something yesterday but hit a wall when I realised I had not thought it through properly. I do love the feeling of a potential story sitting in my head, fermenting.


----------



## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

I hate it when I have something in my mind, perfectly written, but when it comes time for paper it won't come out.


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## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2008)

I just write something else mostly.

Short story marathon or novella project, which one should I embark on?


----------



## Sky is Over (Jun 18, 2008)

> We were really close and the character is only based on her, its not an exact name or exact look or anything of the sort, but the personality is largely based off. Most of what I am going for is the personality and the feel of being around here because for the most part she was probably one of the most charismatic and nice people I have know without trying it seemed. She could rally support for something so easily and look so out of place doing it.



Then go for it.



> I used to do that, but after awhile it felt very random and unorganized. =\
> 
> But a lot of people find this method useful. I just don't happen to use it.



Indeed so; it's fun to put together, but with never ending ideas it has to be re-edited and that takes for fucking ever, then afterwards I want to change the story. It's messed up. 

@What's something that spins around?


----------



## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

Spins around, what do you mean?


----------



## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2008)

A bullet? This is for a metaphor/simile, right?


----------



## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

A bullet? What are we talking about?


----------



## Sky is Over (Jun 18, 2008)

Chee said:


> Spins around, what do you mean?



Something in a circle, like a centrifuge to be one example.


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## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2008)

I think she needs the context that the information will be used in to help you. As do I actually.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 18, 2008)

Hmmm, okay. The scene involves two drones circling around someone, what'd be a good word to describe that?


----------



## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

Two drones? 

Sorry if I sound slow.


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## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2008)

Like drowned flies circling an empty plughole sounds kinda inventive. Or there is vultures circling a dying gazelle. Or you could use personification.

Swirling, cycling, circling, rotating, if it's a synonym you're after. Hopefully I've triggered your imagination.

Edit-Chee, I presume it's robots of some kind (or bees).


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## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

Oh, gotcha.

Uhh...circled? Prowled? Tornadoed? Hunted? Twirling? I have no clue.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2008)

Like a pedo stalking a little girl.


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## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Like a pedo stalking a little girl.



Like a pedo with one leg shorter than the other stalking a little girl you mean?


----------



## Sky is Over (Jun 18, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Like drowned flies circling an empty plughole sounds kinda inventive. Or there is vultures circling a dying gazelle. Or you could use personification.
> 
> Swirling, cycling, circling, rotating, if it's a synonym you're after. Hopefully I've triggered your imagination.
> 
> Edit-Chee, I presume it's robots of some kind (or bees).



Thnx for the help, and here's what I'm somewhat basing it off of.


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## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

lol, pedo. 

If you're basing it off of that, just use words to describe the image and establish in your story.


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## Tyrael (Jun 18, 2008)

"Circled" is as good as any, don't feel it needs to be sophisticated. As Chee said, as long as the image is communicated you've done your job.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2008)

I have so many mini stories within some of my greater arcs I could get several more books.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Like a pedo with one leg shorter than the other stalking a little girl you mean?



Pedos stalk in vans.


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## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Pedos stalk in vans.



In ice-cream trucks.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2008)

One time I saw a real ice cream truck then I saw something that was clearly a van dressed up to look like an ice cream truck.


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## Chee (Jun 18, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> One time I saw a real ice cream truck then I saw something that was clearly a van dressed up to look like an ice cream truck.



I am caught.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2008)

I have some stories within the greater arcs that might make good books within themselves.


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## Batman (Jun 18, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I have some stories within the greater arcs that might make good books within themselves.



So many good stories, so little time.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2008)

So far I have five titles. 
Great Exodus (First Major arc)
Alvara Seta
Rise of The New Gods(Tentative Title)

Within Alvara Seta I have two stories so planned out they might make books of their own. 
Gore Hotel and House of Blue Fire(Tentative Title)

Those two follow only one point of view as opposed to multiple however they also fit into the canon of the overall story.


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## Batman (Jun 18, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> So far I have five titles.
> Great Exodus (First Major arc)
> Alvara Seta
> Rise of The New Gods(Tentative Title)
> ...



Very cool. I'd like to try and do something like that, but I'm worried about the impact of the characters. Did you plan it out to be like that, or did it just develop organically?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2008)

It kinda developed into that due to enthusiasm in planning.


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## Chee (Jun 19, 2008)

Cool titles Yu. 

Same here, I have lots of stories in my mind, but my priority is my current novel first.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2008)

Very active day indeed. Looks like we're discussing titles. I don't have many and some of them I took from other places. Like I got some from Kingdom hearts 2 and some from songs. But the titles of my major tales are:


Ruin And Creation
Croatoan
Ex Deus
Heaven Forbid
The Proof of Existence
I have smaller titles that I need to title. I try to make the name meaningful and an eye grabber, you know something interesting so people want to read it before they even pick it up. 

Ruin and Creation is a basic introduction to the characters and the beginning of the situation. You see that something is going on and that this cult is trying to summon something. The main characters, who are mostly FBI agents break it up but they can't tell if the summoning worked.

Croatoan involves the revelation that one of the characters is really sick, but when her daughter falls into a coma that seems to be connected to the disappearance of a whole town in North Carolina, she goes to see what she can find there to help her daughter. 

Ex Deus centers around a terrorist attack that winds up getting an Agent killed. When the team is called in to investigate, it comes to their attention that there might be something more supernatural driving what's happening. 

Heaven Forbid is about two Angels trying to stop an arising crisis when they find out someone plans to attack Hell and then Heaven. 

The Proof of Existence (the one I am working on now) is about the kids of the agents getting sucked into another dimension by a powerful being while they're on a field trip. They're forced to learn to fight to survive. 

I am so bad at giving a synopsis.


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## Chee (Jun 19, 2008)

Right now my current title for my novel is: _Games to Play with You_,  but lately I've been changing it so it will probably change again.

My other titles I have planned are:
Summerland (or Gild the Lily, maybe)
Hexe (for a screenplay, may change)
The Even Seven

I always change titles though. xD


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2008)

Much cleaner synopses than mine.

@Chee: I like that title.


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## Chee (Jun 19, 2008)

The Games one? Thanks.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2008)

As far as inspiration goes most of my titles come from the story itself. Gore Hotel however came from an album by Bohren & Der Club of Gore. Gore Motel became Gore Hotel.


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## Chee (Jun 19, 2008)

I like that title, sounds gorey. That your current project?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2008)

Still stuck in Great Exodus.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2008)

I actually hate being asked what my story is about overall because it happens in stages so its hard to explain without breaking each story down.


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## Chee (Jun 19, 2008)

Right now, I just don't want anyone to ask me about my story. It's so raw right now its not even funny. 

Oh yea, remembered my other title for my next project: _The Day-Trappers_.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2008)

Mine does too and on several different fields. It gives me a headache just thinking about it all.


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## Chee (Jun 19, 2008)

It's a pain in the ass, really. 

I need to get to work on it though. I've been lacking off lately and I'm not getting single chapter done.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2008)

I'm feeling somewhat burn out on this story. I still love it to death, but I just want to get to the later points already. The Alvara Seta arc has so much potential. I also want to do something with my character Michelle. She's been sorely neglected these past few years. She's very important but her role doesn't become clear unless I'm writing her part. Maybe, I should try writing the paths in separate documents again.


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## Chee (Jun 19, 2008)

Totally. I think you should work on parts that you want to work on and match it up later.

I'm trying to do that right now but the first chapter is driving me nuts.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2008)

It's what I have decided to do. Things will go much faster this way.


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## Chee (Jun 19, 2008)

And its fun, like a puzzle: you match them together.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 19, 2008)

@CTK, I like Crotoan and Ruin and Creation, even though I've heard Ex Deus somewhere...:headstract


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2008)

Thanks, I really didn't think they're all that good.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 19, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Thanks, I really didn't think they're all that good.



For a moment, I thought I killed the conversation. 

IMO, my spin on it would 3.) Phasmatis, and 4.) Committo.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2008)

Mad-Dog said:


> For a moment, I thought I killed the conversation.
> 
> IMO, my spin on it would 3.) Phasmatis, and 4.) Committo.



From reading the descrips?


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## Sky is Over (Jun 19, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> From reading the descrips?



Yeah, I will admit they're a bit cheap and latin, but because I'm not the original author of the stor, I have a bit of a difficult time putting a full  mental effort into comming up with some alternatives.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2008)

I actually like Heaven Forbid as a title alot, and it came from a song actually.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 19, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I actually like Heaven Forbid as a title alot, and it came from a song actually.



Which band?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2008)

The Fray, the song is actually tilted Heaven Forbid


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## Sky is Over (Jun 19, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The Fray, the song is actually tilted Heaven Forbid



Lyrics are good, but the song is too soft rock for me. 

And one thing I have to ask is, would a top-secret research facility be more intriguing on 1.) An Asteroid, 2.) the Desert, or 3.) The Arctic?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2008)

The asteroid is a little out there for me, so I would go with one of the other ones. Maybe arctic, I have one in the arctic in my thing


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## Sky is Over (Jun 19, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The asteroid is a little out there for me, so I would go with one of the other ones. Maybe arctic, I have one in the arctic in my thing



But the story of mine does take a good distance in the future, where space travel is common, so that's why I included it in the options. I thought about taking an idea from Metroid Fusion and somewhat applying it to the Asteroid idea.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 19, 2008)

Title discussing is pretty interesting.

Of all the stories in my head, there's only one solidly cemented storyline. It's a seven parter named The Chronicles of the EDOSTAR. EDOSTAR is a name I derived by sheer luck, and it basically told me I had to write the story one day.

Seven titles in order go:

First Blood
The Blood Knights
Chaos Unbound
Worlds Aflame
Breaking The Chains
Shadow's Bane
The End of Existence


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2008)

Well the arctic seems to be one of my favorite areas to go to for thing like that in stories. I actually had a facility in the arctic where this character is taken and I am playing off that idea.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 19, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Title discussing is pretty interesting.
> 
> Of all the stories in my head, there's only one solidly cemented storyline. It's a seven parter named The Chronicles of the EDOSTAR. EDOSTAR is a name I derived by sheer luck, and it basically told me I had to write the story one day.
> 
> ...



Those are some pretty nice titles in IMO. 

For my story, I've decided to go with:

-Operation S.I.G.N.
-De Novo
-Homebound
-The Surge
-Solemn Hour
-Disorder
-Armaggedon
-Thule's Gate

If you want any descriptions, feel free to ask and I will give.



> Well the arctic seems to be one of my favorite areas to go to for thing like that in stories. I actually had a facility in the arctic where this character is taken and I am playing off that idea.



A frosty place would be nice, I might do it if I can find a planet with tons of ice.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 19, 2008)

Sure. I'm happy to listen to some descriptions, and if you're interested, I'll give a little overview and description of each of my seven as well.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 19, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Sure. I'm happy to listen to some descriptions, and if you're interested, I'll give a little overview and description of each of my seven as well.



You go first, have to pull up a few things before mentioning mine.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 19, 2008)

Okay, first of all, the name of EDOSTAR.

When I was younger, I was heavily into the Deltora Quest series. If you've never read it, a main focus is seven gemstones, that arranged in a specific order, give providence to a country's ruler. The order was:

Diamond, Emerald, Lapis Lazuli, Topaz, Opal, Ruby, Amethyst.

As you might notice, the first letter of each of those spells Deltora.

So around that time, I made my own first character. His name was Taurus. Later receiving the last name of Versant. I like green the most, so he was represented by the Emerald.

Six other characters joined him, and Lapis Lazuli got changed to Sapphire.

Surprisingly, when I arranged the seven in my own personal order of preference, and listed their respective gemstones in that order, the first letter of each spelled EDOSTAR.

I did not take that as a coincidence.

~~~

I don't want to overload on giant posts, so I'll let that settle and you can post something before I continue.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2008)

Yeah its an arctic station where a doctor calls and basically asks for help with some sort of mutant viral outbreak...I thought it sounded a little Resident Evil, but its not zombies at all and its not the same execution really. 

It involves a bit of Russian history, the supernatural and some medical stuff.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 19, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Okay, first of all, the name of EDOSTAR.
> 
> When I was younger, I was heavily into the Deltora Quest series. If you've never read it, a main focus is seven gemstones, that arranged in a specific order, give providence to a country's ruler. The order was:
> 
> ...



That's interesting and somewhat ironic since my story involves stones also.

The story I'm working on is called Chaos God. To summarize it in general and as basic as possible, it's about five special operatives who belong to a Special Forces branch called the Trinity within the G.D.F. (Galactic Defense Force.) and there battles throughout the the Universal War, based around retrieving the Seven Shadow Stones before a massive military force known as The Fifth Oracle of Demagog (Dema for short.) can use them to summon the Chaos God, which they plan on using to open a stable portal to Hades and destroy the known universe. 

I wish I could go further into depth about it all, such as the factions and characters, but it might cause my head to explode. >_<



> Yeah its an arctic station where a doctor calls and basically asks for help with some sort of mutant viral outbreak...I thought it sounded a little Resident Evil, but its not zombies at all and its not the same execution really.
> 
> It involves a bit of Russian history, the supernatural and some medical stuff.



Sounds interesting, what is the virus?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2008)

Not really a viral outbreak, but its akin to one. You'd have to see it to understand, but here is what I have so far. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Mandi adjust the computer monitor to the right position as she peered through the static searching for the picture. As the video wore on a figure came into view, his white lab coat appearing first. He was bending over close to the camera. With the coat taking up most of the monitor all that Mandi could see around him were a few small items that indicated he was in a lab somewhere.  


 His voice told of disappointment, ?I guess this is as good as I can do...? he dropped back into an unseen chair and brushed something away from his eye as he stared into the lens. His thick blond curls seemed to be an out of control mess. ?I'm sending you this because you're probably the only person left I can trust with this, Doctor Clark...?  


 Somewhere off in the room where he was there was a crash, he rushed off to the door and the camera followed him. Mandi had seen the technology before, webcams that followed people and movement. It was kind of old news really. Now he slammed into the door, where there were all manner of things piled up. A table barred the door and some other smaller pieces of lab equipment. 


 The door pulsed and jolted as someone on the other side hit it. The man threw more things onto the pile by the door, ?Shit...? he muttered and then rushed back to the camera, ?Mandi...something happened here,? the recording hit a spot of static, ?...here in Tunguska...? his face blurred and stretched with the lines of static that cut through. ?Things went wrong with the experiment and I can't even be sure what we found is...in any way of this world...?


 Mandi tilted her head in wonder, ?What??


 ?...We need you here!? he said, ?You...? there was a loud crash and he was gone from the chair. The webcam fell over on its side as the man darted across the room towards the door. There were shouts that turned into screams of pain and then silence. The recording went on for several more minutes Mandi could tell by the status bar. But when she fast forwarded it, there was nothing more.  


 Mandi shook her head, ?Doctor Triabold,? she sighed in disbelief. ?What happened out there?? She would have wondered that with the most importance but the question foremost in her mind was why he would contact her of all people.


 Triabold had been a staunch scientist?he didn't believe in anything without science as an explanation. He was a widely proclaimed Atheist and saw most of Mandi's beliefs as trite and regarded her as a dreamer. He said she had the drive to be a brilliant scientist, but lacked the common sense to keep her own radical beliefs out of the picture.  


 Mandi, on the other hand, was a firm believer in the Occult and while she didn't practice it herself, she had a respect for what it meant and stood for.  


 The two had often clashed right in the middle of class. He would go on long winded rants trying to shoot holes in the ideas that Mandi had which never stopped her from trying to mix science with ideas from the black arts.  


 Looking back Mandi could tell that all of the things she thought were silly and had no place in genetics. But now she had to wonder why Triabold had decided to call her, of all people and what she could really do about something that was happening clear across the world in Northern Russia.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 19, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Not really a viral outbreak, but its akin to one. You'd have to see it to understand, but here is what I have so far.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



This is pretty good, especially the variety of words and the theme is well-expressed; and did you just type all of this in a matter of minutes?


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 19, 2008)

The overall plot I can't really give out, so each of the seven individuals I'd have to give. The links between them remain unseen. This is a really bad summary, but it's better than nothing. Each story is individual with new characters and new timeframes, so the overall links can't be seen.

~~~

First Blood: A conflict between new and old Deities, which leads to wars between people. A small group of people just trying to survive get drawn into the battles when they unearth secrets older than anything else to date.

The Blood Knights: Acting as an apparent "saviour group", a number of people begin using their own strength and intelligence to manipulate and control many of the kingdoms around them, trying to create a single, controlled state.

Chaos Unbound: Travelling across the sea to new lands reveals a whole new race, one tied far more into the spiritual realm than the more 'advanced' people. The relations between these two peoples are explored, and the consequences of their meeting unleashed.

Worlds Aflame: The first 'futuristic' story, mirroring The Blood Knights slightly. This time, the group is a lot more controlled, and used as a weapon by higher powers, instead of acting on their own. But others like them exist, and their meetings result in huge turmoil.

Breaking The Chains: A 'modern' setting, Symbols are a huge role in this story. Those with these so called 'symbols' are different from the norm. Various factions seek to understand these symbols, and draw their full potential out.

Shadow's Bane: A post apocalyptic world, small outposts continue to fight against the fallen world. But remnants from the past remain, and create a path for the separated populace to come together again and find the chance for a new life.

The End of Existence: Nuff' said. This one's top secret.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 19, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> The overall plot I can't really give out, so each of the seven individuals I'd have to give. The links between them remain unseen. This is a really bad summary, but it's better than nothing. Each story is individual with new characters and new timeframes, so the overall links can't be seen.
> 
> ~~~
> 
> ...



Oooohhh, the last two definelty caught my attention, even though secrets do riddle my mind. 

And I think I might be talking about mine too much already. 

Care if I P.M. the rest to you for confidentiality reasons?


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 19, 2008)

Yeah, the only thing that really allows me to talk is that the way the story really works can't be read out of that, and the overall plot hasn't been mentioned slightly. No one can understand it fully except me, and I'd like to keep it that way for now.

You can PM me if you'd like, I figure I've almost said too much myself, so I symapthise. And I am curious.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 19, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Yeah, the only thing that really allows me to talk is that the way the story really works can't be read out of that, and the overall plot hasn't been mentioned slightly. No one can understand it fully except me, and I'd like to keep it that way for now.
> 
> You can PM me if you'd like, I figure I've almost said too much myself, so I symapthise. And I am curious.



Suspense through concealing is always the best way to catch attention.

And I'll P.M., I just don't want to reveal too much because of harsh criticism and if I decide to send this through to the publisher I have a deal with right now, I don't want to much revealed.


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## Tyrael (Jun 19, 2008)

Deal with a publisher? Sounds good. I would advise you to toughen yourself up to harsh criticisms though-if you do ever get as far as publishing then there is almost no author alive who isn't slated.

And synopsis never do a book justice as they take it out of their context.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2008)

Mad-Dog said:


> This is pretty good, especially the variety of words and the theme is well-expressed; and did you just type all of this in a matter of minutes?



Hm it was about twenty minutes work, a little rough but the points I want to make are all there.


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## Tyrael (Jun 19, 2008)

I've read your snippet CTK and think that you'll have to be careful with the pretense you're setting up. Could be brilliant if done correctly and horrendously cliche if done wrong.


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## Chee (Jun 19, 2008)

All of you guys are doing different worlds for your stories. 

I'm stuck on Earth. Hahah.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2008)

I haven't experienced enough of life on Earth to do an Earth Adventure. I have to make up my own world because my real world is so limited.

On the subject of story connections. Each of my stories are directly connected and consecutive using the same main characters in a continuous epic plotline.


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## Tyrael (Jun 19, 2008)

Chee said:


> All of you guys are doing different worlds for your stories.
> 
> I'm stuck on Earth. Hahah.



Actually, I think CTK's story is based on earth as well. And my new possibly project is based in earth as well (fantastical in the Idiana Jones sense, although it's nothing like Indiana Jones).



Lord Yu said:


> I haven't experienced enough of life on Earth to do an Earth Adventure. I have to make up my own world because my real world is so limited.
> 
> On the subject of story connections. Each of my stories are directly connected and consecutive using the same main characters in a continuous epic plotline.



If you can string them together convincingly then you're onto a winner.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2008)

I think I can.


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## Chee (Jun 19, 2008)

I don't think that should stop you, Yu. Research is always applicable. And you can always base of the story from "your" (like if your a doctor, write a story about a doctor) perspective.


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## Tyrael (Jun 19, 2008)

Chee said:


> I don't think that should stop you, Yu. Research is always applicable. And you can always base of the story from "your" (like if your a doctor, write a story about a doctor) perspective.



Most of my main characters are cynical and sarcastic cowards that tend to be at odds in someway with the world around them. I wonder what that says about me...

I always find as long as your readers believe it within the confines of the book then you are doing your job. It doesn't need to realistically reflect reality, it only needs to do enough for the readers to accept it as reality.


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## Chee (Jun 19, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Most of my main characters are cynical and sarcastic cowards that tend to be at odds in someway with the world around them. I wonder what that says about me...
> 
> I always find as long as your readers believe it within the confines of the book then you are doing your job. It doesn't need to realistically reflect reality, it only needs to do enough for the readers to accept it as reality.



Hahah, nice. For my book, its going for the opposite of me. She's incredible rude to people she just met and she's "always avalible" if you know what I mean. Hahah.

Agreed. But my point was that the "real world" shouldn't be quarantined off just because you have lack of experience. But if a person is fine writing fantasy worlds, that's awesomely perfect.


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## Tyrael (Jun 19, 2008)

Chee said:


> Hahah, nice. For my book, its going for the opposite of me. She's incredible rude to people she just met and she's "always avalible" if you know what I mean. Hahah.
> 
> Agreed. But my point was that the "real world" shouldn't be quarantined off just because you have lack of experience. But if a person is fine writing fantasy worlds, that's awesomely perfect.



Charactersation may just be a point where I have become lax with. I'm still waiting for somebody to read that short story to see if it worked or not. Inverted personality sounds interesting.

And my second point was agreeing with you-you don't need to be limited because of a feeling of not knowing the world enough. As long as you know the world in the book enough your home free.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 19, 2008)

One of those seven is earth-based


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## Chee (Jun 19, 2008)

Heh, I guess I'm not that imaginative. Most of my stories I have planned are fictional (as in fictional monsters, werewolves, sirens and demons) but their all on Earth in a realistic tense. Sorta like Stephen King I suppose. Very real-like characters facing the supernatural. 

I guess I'm not the type who makes up worlds. I'd rather have it on a realistic term, something that readers have in common with. And hell, something I have in common with. xD


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## Tyrael (Jun 19, 2008)

I'm tempted to rant on my own views on the nature of world building in literature (especially "speculative" or "weird" literature) but the tl;dr nature of those keeps me back.


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## Chee (Jun 19, 2008)

tl;dr?


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## Tyrael (Jun 19, 2008)

Chee said:


> tl;dr?



Too long; didn't read. Internet talk pertaining to walls of text posts.


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## Chee (Jun 19, 2008)

Oh. I learned something new. 

If you want to rant, go ahead. I'm bored anyways, I'd like to read. xD


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## Tyrael (Jun 19, 2008)

Well firstly I'm going to say that earth is always a back-drop to every story that has a physical environment. I don't care how many fantastical character or weird systems of magic are planted in. The very nature of the surroundings are representations of what the characters come into contact with which is what earth or our world is to us; so for all practical purposes it is earth that the reader becomes immersed in.

The thing is that representations of deviances within these worlds (like "magic") are in their own way just physical manifestations of the themes rather than defining points of the world itself. In that I mean that it's just a literal representation of the way people look at the world. It always annoys me when people say "but the magic is just a metaphor" to excuse themselves from being "overly fantasy" (_overly _fantasy?) as magic or such is always a metaphor as is the paranormal and supernatural and psychic and so on. Geography? Different geography doesn't make a different world. The only way it isn't based in earth is when it does not contain a physical environment.

Hopefully that is coherent.


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## Chee (Jun 19, 2008)

That is very true.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I've read your snippet CTK and think that you'll have to be careful with the pretense you're setting up. Could be brilliant if done correctly and horrendously cliche if done wrong.



Hmm I am curious to know what you're thinking when you say that this is a dangerous pretense... I mean that I think its like that with anything.


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## kakoishii (Jun 20, 2008)

I'd hate to horn inbetween anyone's critiques or story explanations, but after considering it then chickening out repeatedly I decided to come in here and explain my concept of story I'm currently writing as my summer project to finally write a story I'm happy with rather than starting one then having an epiphany of how incredibly lame is turning and out and then racking my brain at what point it suddenly went very wrong, but I digress...

Anyway what I've gotten down so far is a story set in an alternate earth, alternate in the sense that it's still earth but the timeline of events diverges to create a world very different than the one you and I are familiar with.

In this earth technology advanced to the point where mankind, in its obsession with discovery, has to come to the point where it has uncovered the whereabout of galaxies outside our own and has come into contact with lifeforms within in those galaxies, or humanoids I should say. The obsession quickly turned to greed erupting in a mass battle over power and land to the point where earth and its advancement quickly regressed to a primitive state and the world as it was known came to an end.

In a war started over greed and ownership of the vast galaxies, earth is the last unoccupied territory and thus is the last stronghold for hope or domination. Countries no longer exist and for the safe of the people earth was divided into colonies contained in domes.

The story follows two main characters, a girl and a guy, who are both soldiers fighting to save earth and hopefully "change" the world into a place worth living again. The real depth comes in the contrast of the two characters and their two very different goals and personalities.

The guy is very simplistic, and with childhood dreams of becoming a hero like his father who is also a soldier, is feelings soon grow into a need to want to "change" things.

The girl on the other hand is very selfish in her goals. Having no memory of her early years she's strugle her whole life to find a life for herself where she could live freely without feeling as though she's lost in the darkness.

I hope to go further in depth with corrupt rule of military which is actually "a wolf in sheep's clothing" with it's seemingly innocent fertility statute to keep any women away from any sort of environment that could hurt their chances to procreate. This ties into the girl protagonist's story who is going against this statute by masquerading as a man to join the army. Unbeknowest to anyone the fertility statute has a sinister secret that I hope to elaborate on as the story goes on.

Sorry this is kind of long , this is actually just a really rough break down of what have in mind.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 20, 2008)

You know in all my years I've never really read any space adventure sci-fi type stuff except for like part of a Star Wars book in Junior High. But the concept does sound a little interesting. It kind of reminds me of Xenosaga in some ways. 

I did more on that story: 


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Mandi adjust the computer monitor to the right position as she peered through the static searching for the picture. As the video wore on a figure came into view, his white lab coat appearing first. He was bending over close to the camera. With the coat taking up most of the monitor all that Mandi could see around him were a few small items that indicated he was in a lab somewhere.  


 His voice told of disappointment, ?I guess this is as good as I can do...? he dropped back into an unseen chair and brushed something away from his eye as he stared into the lens. His thick blond curls seemed to be an out of control mess. ?I'm sending you this because you're probably the only person left I can trust with this, Doctor Clark...?  


 Somewhere off in the room where he was there was a crash, he rushed off to the door and the camera followed him. Mandi had seen the technology before, webcams that followed people and movement. It was kind of old news really. Now he slammed into the door, where there were all manner of things piled up. A table barred the door and some other smaller pieces of lab equipment. 


 The door pulsed and jolted as someone on the other side hit it. The man threw more things onto the pile by the door, ?Shit...? he muttered and then rushed back to the camera, ?Mandi...something happened here,? the recording hit a spot of static, ?...here in Tunguska...? his face blurred and stretched with the lines of static that cut through. ?Things went wrong with the experiment and I can't even be sure what we found is...in any way of this world...?


 Mandi tilted her head in wonder, ?What??


 ?...We need you here!? he said, ?You...? there was a loud crash and he was gone from the chair. The webcam fell over on its side as the man darted across the room towards the door. There were shouts that turned into screams of pain and then silence. The recording went on for several more minutes Mandi could tell by the status bar. But when she fast forwarded it, there was nothing more.  


 Mandi shook her head, ?Doctor Triabold,? she sighed in disbelief. ?What happened out there?? She would have wondered that with the most importance but the question foremost in her mind was why he would contact her of all people.


 Triabold had been a staunch scientist?he didn't believe in anything without science as an explanation. He was a widely proclaimed Atheist and saw most of Mandi's beliefs as trite and regarded her as a dreamer. He said she had the drive to be a brilliant scientist, but lacked the common sense to keep her own radical beliefs out of the picture.  


 Mandi, on the other hand, was a firm believer in the Occult and while she didn't practice it herself, she had a respect for what it meant and stood for.  


 The two had often clashed right in the middle of class. He would go on long winded rants trying to shoot holes in the ideas that Mandi had which never stopped her from trying to mix science with ideas from the black arts.  


 Looking back Mandi could tell that all of the things she thought were silly and had no place in genetics. But now she had to wonder why Triabold had decided to call her, of all people and what she could really do about something that was happening clear across the world in Northern Russia.  


 Mandi had to think fast, there was only one place she could take this information and be taken seriously. She went to her bed and shifted through the clothes, books and papers that littered the couch. She yanked her purse free of the mess and dumped it onto the floor in front of the couch, ?It must be here somewhere.?  


 Now she was down on her knees pushing the contents of her handbag apart, lip gloss, candy, make up and the other little normal trinkets. She hadn't carried this purse in a few weeks and hadn't gone anywhere she really needed it in months before that.  


 Mandi lived alone in a top floor apartment of what used to be Freedman's Town in the Fourth Ward of Houston. Between teaching a class at Rice and working part-time for the FBI, she didn't have much time to come home and clean up. Most weeks she was working sixty to eighty hours, but she'd always like to keep busy.


 As she dug down through her junk something brushed against her pale arm in the half darkness. She was startled at first and her arm jolted slightly before she was reassured with a soft purr. With a sight of relief she spoke, ?Minx, you can't sneak up on momma like that.? There was a soft lick on her arm, but she pushed the cat to the side, ?Not right now I'm in a hurry.?  


 With the cat moved she spotted it, a flash drive that she'd know was tucked away in her purse. Her mind sank back to the task at hand, she went back to the computer and copied the video as quickly as she could. It didn't fit at first so she was forced to move a few unimportant files off and then try again. ?Come on dammit.?  


 Dark brown tendrils of her hair dropped into her face, she pushed them away and yanked the drive free of the USB port before bothering to even check to see if it had copied right. She'd leave it up to fate. The email that had contained the video had only come an hour ago, but she couldn't get it to open at first.  


 Now, with it open part of her wondered how something could change someone's life so fast. She was looking for her keys on the desk and about to be on her way out the door. She'd have to call her sister on the way and ask her to feed the cat. The keys were hanging by the door where they should have been and she grabbed them.  


 Just before she stepped out the door she spotted something on the small round table next to the door and nestled just between pictures of friends. It was her lucky rabbit's foot. She snatched it up, something told her that she might need it.




That's the first chapter.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jun 20, 2008)

Read Hyperion.


----------



## kakoishii (Jun 20, 2008)

^ read a description of what it's about, with the exception of the "galaxy war" my story will take a much different direction. Did you think I was ripping it off?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 20, 2008)

I was talking to CTK since he said he hadn't read any Sci Fi. I recommend it to you as well because it's just a great book.


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## Batman (Jun 20, 2008)

I want to end one of my chapters with "If only it was meant to last." What do you think? Too corny, or might I be able to get away with it if the rest of the chapter isn't so cornball?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 20, 2008)

If used with the right point of wit...


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## Tyrael (Jun 20, 2008)

kakoishii said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think it has a lot of potential-any idea can work if delivered well and you do a have a quite cool little story, the idea of the advancements in technology fueling greed and causing this huge war is enough to pique my interest.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Hmm I am curious to know what you're thinking when you say that this is a dangerous pretense... I mean that I think its like that with anything.



That scene seems like it is taken from a horror/thriller film-books that share too many traits with films can fall apart. The fact is it is not a particularly original concept either, so if you can pull it off then I tip my metaphorical hat you.



Batman said:


> I want to end one of my chapters with "If only it was meant to last." What do you think? Too corny, or might I be able to get away with it if the rest of the chapter isn't so cornball?



How's the short story? I finished mine two days ago. I think there are better ways to phrase it anyway than "If only it was meant to last." Make it slightly more elaborative or reflective.

And I've heard great things about _Hyperion_ Yu.


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## Chee (Jun 20, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You know in all my years I've never really read any space adventure sci-fi type stuff except for like part of a Star Wars book in Junior High. But the concept does sound a little interesting. It kind of reminds me of Xenosaga in some ways.
> 
> I did more on that story:
> 
> ...



You should do more on the main character. Usually on first chapters, a lot of writers show the lives of the character in the beginning of the chapter before the turning point.
It's just to get a feeling of the reader being "connected" to the character, and makes them care about the character. (To be honest, I didn't really "care" about the character. She was just a name.")


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## Sky is Over (Jun 20, 2008)

hello, hello, hello, I'm here omce again for some advice; for those who watch Code Geass, I've been a bit inspired by the title "Honorary Brittanian" and I'm trying to come up with something similar. Do any of you have ideas?


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## Batman (Jun 20, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> How's the short story? I finished mine two days ago. I think there are better ways to phrase it anyway than "If only it was meant to last." Make it slightly more elaborative or reflective.



I finished the first draft, but I haven't looked at it since. I got an inspiration and went back to working on my main project. Gotta ride the high while I got it, but I'll still have to make some time to edit the short story. It didn't end up being what I expected. lol




			
				Mad-Dog said:
			
		

> hello, hello, hello, I'm here omce again for some advice; for those who watch Code Geass, I've been a bit inspired by the title "Honorary Brittanian" and I'm trying to come up with something similar. Do any of you have ideas?


 What kind of ideas about "honorary XX"? Are you looking to write about a person working within an oppressive system? or are you trying to take that notion and place it into a different environment? I'm not sure what you want in the way of ideas. Be a bit more specific.


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## Tyrael (Jun 20, 2008)

Batman said:


> I finished the first draft, but I haven't looked at it since. I got an inspiration and went back to working on my main project. Gotta ride the high while I got it, but I'll still have to make some time to edit the short story. It didn't end up being what I expected. lol.



Well, mine is going to be redrafted at some point, but for the moment I'm either going on a short story marathon (one short per week) or a novella type thing that's on the cusp of fruition, not quite decided yet.

And true enough that you've gotta grasp inspiration when it strikes. And a piece of writing will never come out how you expect it to be, although I'm really disappointed with how my short turned out.


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## Batman (Jun 20, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Well, mine is going to be redrafted at some point, but for the moment I'm either going on a short story marathon (one short per week) or a novella type thing that's on the cusp of fruition, not quite decided yet.
> 
> And true enough that you've gotta grasp inspiration when it strikes. And a piece of writing will never come out how you expect it to be, although I'm really disappointed with how my short turned out.



I hear that disappointment is proof you're doing something right, or at least that you can fix it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 20, 2008)

This place has been really active lately and I am really happy to see that. Its good. 

I am getting more character art done but all I have is a sketch now and I am also trying to revise that story I posted the other day.


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## Sky is Over (Jun 20, 2008)

> What kind of ideas about "honorary XX"? Are you looking to write about a person working within an oppressive system? or are you trying to take that notion and place it into a different environment? I'm not sure what you want in the way of ideas. Be a bit more specific.



More like an honarary title for someone doing something good, kind of like a medal of honor.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 20, 2008)

Then just make something up for your story, it doesn't really have to come from anywhere else and since we don't know all of what your story involves its hard for us to tell you what to do.


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## Double Arts Sui (Jun 20, 2008)

*takes notes just in case* 
I do write, mostly fanfiction. I have some original stories/comic scripts, but I'm either too shy to publish them, too lazy to find a beta tester or too unconfident on the interest they might generate (i.e not being worth the time and risk) And of course, I draw crappily, so I'm not going to be published in comic format.

I might get bothered to write something 'serious' soon, just because my mother wants me to, so tips are really welcome. Thanks people.


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## Major (Jun 21, 2008)

Hi guys 

Well one thing that will help the shyness is to use a pseudonymn.  I co-authored on a book once - my cousin's request - and I used some guy's name to cover up my invovlement .

I myself, am not to involved in Comic writing, so I do not really understand the dynamics invovled in such a venture, so no real good advice to I can give you there.

When it comes to confidence, well, everybody is afraid of being rejected.  

I myself have several novels already written just lying around my apartment, because I don't have the courage to publish them.  I know the reason for my fear though.  English isn't my first language, and since I lack in certain categories, I am afraid that my rhetoric on certain philosophical ideas will appear ambiguous and therefor my novel will fail.

Still I haven't given up though.  At the moment I'm doing everything to enhance my writing ability, and in the end as long as I can gain the confidence _there_, I feel rejection will be acceptable and ultimately constructive.

In the end without feedback, you have little to work with.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 21, 2008)

Your Princess Mononoke signature distracts me with its awesomeness.


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## Major (Jun 21, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Your Princess Mononoke signature distracts me with its awesomeness.


 It's supposed to Inspire X3


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## Chee (Jun 21, 2008)

Ri No Gaisen said:


> *takes notes just in case*
> I do write, mostly fanfiction. I have some original stories/comic scripts, but *I'm either too shy to publish them, too lazy to find a beta tester or too unconfident on the interest they might generate* (i.e not being worth the time and risk) And of course, I draw crappily, so I'm not going to be published in comic format.
> 
> I might get bothered to write something 'serious' soon, just because my mother wants me to, so tips are really welcome. Thanks people.



If you don't take yourself seriously, professionals won't take you seriously. That's my tip for the time being. 

And don't write if you don't wanna. xD
Your mom can shove it, if she wants you to write she can write her own story.


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## Tyrael (Jun 21, 2008)

Ah, the fine line between arrogance and confidence. Not that a lack of arrogance has or ever will be a problem for me.


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## Chee (Jun 22, 2008)

I think I'm a little arrogant as well (all people are huh?), but its mostly confidence.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 22, 2008)

Well, I've learned some things about character and research bits.


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## Chee (Jun 22, 2008)

^^ What do you mean?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 22, 2008)

About character development and the Japanese language of flowers.


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## Tyrael (Jun 22, 2008)

Chee said:


> I think I'm a little arrogant as well (all people are huh?), but its mostly confidence.



Wait, there is a difference?

Yu-Mutant flowers that talk Japanese? I like it.


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## Chee (Jun 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Wait, there is a difference?



 Yes. 

I think.


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## Itonami (Jun 22, 2008)

Started a few stories, and only gotten the first chapter typed up. -.-;;

My muse seems to have ran away ever since she realised I was bi. So no progress for my novels yet.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Wait, there is a difference?
> 
> Yu-Mutant flowers that talk Japanese? I like it.



No the Hanakotoba


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## Muk (Jun 22, 2008)

wait is the wiki link the one for the western flower or the japanese one?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 22, 2008)

It says Hanakotoba. I could imagine its obvious.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 22, 2008)

Sporting the new character art in my sig, but here's a bigger look.


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## Chee (Jun 23, 2008)

You draw that?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 23, 2008)

No a friend of mine did... but its for my story.


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## Chee (Jun 23, 2008)

Oh. 
It's very nice. I love the pose. 

Is she the main character?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 23, 2008)

Chee said:


> Oh.
> It's very nice. I love the pose.
> 
> Is she the main character?



She's one of them, the other is a male vampire human hybrid.


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## Chee (Jun 23, 2008)

Oo, cool.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 23, 2008)

Yeah I am going to have him drawn next, in the meantime I might work on my Mandi story some.


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## Major (Jun 23, 2008)

^  pic, really well drawn. So is she fully human?


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## Tyrael (Jun 23, 2008)

I used the word 'happenchance' yesterday. Never thought that day would come.

Anybody else here got a really solid writing routine?


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## Major (Jun 23, 2008)

I do.  I have a dairy that I write in every night, just for fun, and then I take an hour each morning to work on my different projects.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 23, 2008)

The Major said:


> ^  pic, really well drawn. So is she fully human?



No she's half Angel, but she doesn't know it yet. So she just thinks she has super powers.


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## Tyrael (Jun 23, 2008)

Sounds good, I've found the easiest way to do sustained writing is to say "I'm going sit down at this time for X mins or until I've wrote X number of words." Especially if you've got large projects.


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## Major (Jun 23, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> No she's half Angel, but she doesn't know it yet. So she just thinks she has super powers.


  

So what rank/choir is her angel parent from?

P.S. I'm also working on an angel/demon type story.  Although it's pretty much based on the Ars Goetia ranking list.



Tyrael said:


> Sounds good, I've found the easiest way to do sustained writing is to say "I'm going sit down at this time for X mins or until I've wrote X number of words." Especially if you've got large projects.


 Not for me.  I have to do it in the morning, when I feel at my best and most positive.  Otherwise I never get down to doing it.  

I have way to many activities that constantly hinder my hopes at a routine, so I have to do it before I get side tracked.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 23, 2008)

The Major said:


> So what rank/choir is her angel parent from?
> 
> P.S. I'm also working on an angel/demon type story.  Although it's pretty much based on the Ars Goetia ranking list.
> 
> ...



It doesn't really matter, the choir they're from the kids in the parents can be assigned to any choir. She actually belongs to the lower choirs and is only an Angel of Music.


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## Major (Jun 23, 2008)

That's cool.  Sometimes overcomplicating it, confuses the reader.  Especially if you're plot is full of enough mystery.

For myself my book is far more technical.  There is a lot of research involved.  Not to mention that there are tons of things, that I have to work out for myself.

Is this story of your, going to be a comic?


----------



## Pan-on (Jun 23, 2008)

The Major said:


> Not for me.  I have to do it in the morning, when I feel at my best and most positive.  Otherwise I never get down to doing it.



you feel at your best in the morning? I envy you, I haven't seen morning in too long...I tend to do most things including writing at night but i don't have an sort of routine, its something i need to work on.



> I used the word 'happenchance' yesterday. Never thought that day would come.



I have never used that one, I do like the word "mayhap" and hope to use that one day.


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## Tyrael (Jun 23, 2008)

The Major said:


> Not for me.  I have to do it in the morning, when I feel at my best and most positive.  Otherwise I never get down to doing it.
> 
> I have way to many activities that constantly hinder my hopes at a routine, so I have to do it before I get side tracked.



Well that is what I was talking about-consistency. And I agree with anon here: mornings are currently lost to me.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It doesn't really matter, the choir they're from the kids in the parents can be assigned to any choir. She actually belongs to the lower choirs and is only an Angel of Music.



Do you have any device for naming angels, so there doesn't end up an Angel of A Hedgehog that was Run Over at Three in the Morning by a Drunk Driver who was Shortly Afterwards Arrested for Making Obscene Gestures at the Police?



Anonx said:


> you feel at your best in the morning? I envy you, I haven't seen morning in too long...I tend to do most things including writing at night but i don't have an sort of routine, its something i need to work on.
> 
> I have never used that one, I do like the word "mayhap" and hope to use that one day.



Say you'll do "X" number of words every night and you should see an improvement in your productivity. And mayhap=awesome.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 23, 2008)

The Major said:


> That's cool.  Sometimes overcomplicating it, confuses the reader.  Especially if you're plot is full of enough mystery.
> 
> For myself my book is far more technical.  There is a lot of research involved.  Not to mention that there are tons of things, that I have to work out for myself.
> 
> Is this story of your, going to be a comic?



My story is pretty technical, I just never go into what kind of Angel she is because of the fact that its pretty hard to tell unless the Angels go full on power to fight and they're power is showing or unless someone who can read those kinds of things actually looks at them. 

So all of the characters aren't specified, its just stated that she's not as strong as Death or Might...

And no its not a comic, its all in written form.

*Edit: *


Tyrael said:


> Do you have any device for naming angels, so there doesn't end up an Angel of A Hedgehog that was Run Over at Three in the Morning by a Drunk Driver who was Shortly Afterwards Arrested for Making Obscene Gestures at the Police?



Most of them are real Angels, the Angel of Death, the Angel of Might and stuff like that. And then I have the ones like Lucifer and Michael and Gabriel and the like...

If I have to I will start to make up more Angels, but I haven't had to yet. Really Madeleine has been the most off color one as she's basically the Angel of Nature (if that makes any sense.)


----------



## Double Arts Sui (Jun 23, 2008)

Chee said:


> If you don't take yourself seriously, professionals won't take you seriously. That's my tip for the time being.
> 
> And don't write if you don't wanna. xD
> Your mom can shove it, if she wants you to write she can write her own story.




I' ve never ever taken myself seriously since the moment I shouted my first bellow 

And I love writing, it's just I've known people and seen places and I'm currently living on welfare, so I should do something to eat. And she reckons it's writing. But, just not fanfiction or comic scripts, or I'll die of hunger anyway XD

I like history and politics, but in a twisted, sadistic way.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 23, 2008)

Politics are always sadistic. At least realistic politics.


----------



## Batman (Jun 24, 2008)

*Tips*Aid*Help*Whatever*: would be most appreciated.*

I think I've got literary block. Or literary recede, as it's not a full on stoppage. I've been trying to write and read for like the past 3 days and it's not really getting off like it should be. I don't know, I'm loosing my excitement as the measurement of my days lay stagnant. This could be b/c of:

A. Waitin on my people to finish their hard edits of my first book, and the knowing that its not complete yet makes it tough for me to focus on the draft for the second one that I've been working on. I'm the type that hates waiting around. I always was like that, but i'm not in school anymore so I can't just "do the project myself". So that makes me less enthusiastic in working on current projects, short and or long.

B. Books are boring me for some reason. All of the stories are so predictable and similar. I swear if I read the first three chapters of any book (especially the modern fiction) I can predict the book almost to a T.

C. ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzz I dunno something. 

- any tips to shake outta this? I'm tired of being tired, and I'm tired of being disappointed in my literary endeavors. I'm finding myself submerging myself in stuff I haven't really gotten into in years but that is of course not as fulfilling as it was when I was a teenager.

- I mean I can do it, I can write an read and do all of that stuff but . . . I'm missing the electricity -


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## Lord Yu (Jun 24, 2008)

My solution would be switch medias for a bit. Play some games watch some movies watch some anime, listen to some incredibly bizarre music. Or find better books.


----------



## Batman (Jun 24, 2008)

^ You're probably right. But still. Even that feels similar. I probably need to do something far, far to the left that I've never done. Maybe I'll play a fps.


----------



## Chee (Jun 24, 2008)

Dude, you should take a break. I went on a book marathon and I got totally sick of it so I know how you feel. I have three more books to read and I'm just shit-bored of them all.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jun 24, 2008)

I think I finally know what to do with that character I've been neglecting.


----------



## Chee (Jun 24, 2008)

That's good. What's his part?


----------



## Batman (Jun 24, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I think I finally know what to do with that character I've been neglecting.



That's always really satisfying.


----------



## Chee (Jun 24, 2008)

Batman said:


> That's always really satisfying.



Oh gawd yes, I agree. Getting an idea is always a great moment.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jun 24, 2008)

Her part. Michelle was originally the central character of the story but as I developed the other main characters she gradually fell out of focus and her exact role  in the story became confused. The story always began with her and it still does. So far I still don't know how I'll end her story but she has more sense of direction know. I like her as as a character she's fun to play with. I often made excuses to not work on her plot, saying stuff like "I'll leave it improvised." or "It's more abstract if I don't plan." Hell to be honest it's still that way to some extent. But I finally have a sense of where she's going and what connection she has to the other characters besides being a mother to two of them.


----------



## Chee (Jun 24, 2008)

That's great.


----------



## Batman (Jun 24, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Her part. Michelle was originally the central character of the story but as I developed the other main characters she gradually fell out of focus and her exact role  in the story became confused. The story always began with her and it still does. So far I still don't know how I'll end her story but she has more sense of direction know. I like her as as a character she's fun to play with. I often made excuses to not work on her plot, saying stuff like "I'll leave it improvised." or "It's more abstract if I don't plan." Hell to be honest it's still that way to some extent. But I finally have a sense of where she's going and what connection she has to the other characters besides being a mother to two of them.



I know that can be frustrating when the characters deviate from their original purpose and you (the writer)have a time understanding why they went that way. But it's nice that you found the way back.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 24, 2008)

Michelle's plot was hard to work because it's very different from the other plotlines. The themes it deals on are less concrete and more introspective than the other ones. The connections are also different. It's connected but doesn't intersect as soon or as much as the other plots.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Jun 24, 2008)

@Cardboard Tube Knight:

It's wonderful to see one of your characters given form, isn't it? I would love to find someone would could shape my guys, but I haven't had any luck.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 24, 2008)

You have to look on deviant art, there are plenty of people there who take payment to do it and sometimes its relatively cheap. And with this latest string of drawings (from Madeleine on) I have been utterly amazed. They're just beautiful characters and she draws them with such an fantastical and nice style. 

Now if I could just have my writing go as smoothly. 

Right now I am considering putting all other things on hold to work on a special project that's a gift for someone, only probably is there's time sensitivity to it...


----------



## Tyrael (Jun 24, 2008)

Batman said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A week off-I bet you won't even be able to last that long. Or have a look at writing tip ten-Frank Herbert is a personal favourite of mine.



Lord Yu said:


> Her part. Michelle was originally the central character of the story but as I developed the other main characters she gradually fell out of focus and her exact role  in the story became confused. The story always began with her and it still does. So far I still don't know how I'll end her story but she has more sense of direction know. I like her as as a character she's fun to play with. I often made excuses to not work on her plot, saying stuff like "I'll leave it improvised." or "It's more abstract if I don't plan." Hell to be honest it's still that way to some extent. But I finally have a sense of where she's going and what connection she has to the other characters besides being a mother to two of them.



That might be the longest post I've ever seen you make. Anyhow, I know the idea-one of my key protagonists that eschews a central theme in CA just doesn't have a proper place, I've thought about cutting him out but that would cut out half of the damn story.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jun 24, 2008)

If I tried to remove Michelle I'd be ripping out the foundation and probably one of the most interesting plots. I'd also be damaging one of the themes as well. Nuriat and Eridaltia may have stole the show in my planning but Michelle still holds a vital part in the story.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Jun 25, 2008)

Today is a good day for me. A few months ago, I had two dreams very close to each other, both which stuck in my mind, and I wrote down. I could never place how to link them to create a story, even though I knew there was a story between them.

Today, I have brought forth the plot of that story. There are no names yet, no title, but I already understand how it begins, how it ends, and a good portion of the middle. This will be a good story.

So without further ado, I will introduce you to the two main characters, currently unnamed.

~~~

Unnamed Male lead: One of the strongest swordsmen alive, even without having the gift of magic, this guy has no fear. In the turbulent world he lives in, he's a wanderer, so strong that he doesn't need to care about what happens around him, so arrogant that he sides with no one, only seeking means to alleviate his boredom.

Unnamed Female lead: She carries a curse. A large sheathed sword is always by her, a sword which no one can draw, it burns the hand of anyone who touches it brutally. It can only be held by the sheath. The reason she carries it is her curse, she cannot be separated from it by more than 50m, it simply cannot be done. But she's hunted because of the sword, and she doesn't know why.

~~~

These two are going to be the basis of the story. There are other characters I've already begun designing, but these two are the mains.

I'm really looking forward to writing this. As soon as I'm done with The Unbroken Chain, I'm getting onto it.


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## Tyrael (Jun 25, 2008)

That female lead has a lot of potential and room for ridiculously deep symbolism. The male lead needs a little more depth but since it's early days it looks like the story has potential.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 25, 2008)

Well I got coaxed into writing for a fan fic contest, its Zelda based and its on this other forum I frequent. Long story short this is my first fan fic in years. So I have some stuff to brush up on. But I do have it here to show a little bit of what I have done! 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Link brushed his brown hair away from his face through peer through the bars of the cell once more. He worked his eyes over the darkest back corner of the fortified room to where the moon's reach had not extended. That was where she would reside, because she had wandered back there after every small confrontation.​ 
The pale blue light crept across the floor and had just barely reached her exposed leg and part of her boot. Her garb wasn't like anything Link had seen in Hyrule, strange fabrics accompanied with netting of some sort. Link wandered what it was she called these things, but he knew asking her was impossible. She didn't speak the language of his people or any other people he had heard.​ 
Even then, he tried to communicate with her again, the crowd behind him grew ever tense as he pulled himself closer to the bars, ?My name...Link,? he pointed to himself, ?We,? he acknowledged the small gathering of castle servants around him, ?We are Hylians...? he spoke the word slowly hoping that somehow this would help her to comprehend things.​ 
In a flash the girl slammed into the bars stretching her arm out for Link, her dark hair slipped between the bars and she was fully visible in the light now. In a harsh voice she was yelling something, her words gabled and rough.​ 
Link proved to be a little slower on his feet than he had expected, more than likely it was because he was so tired. But he had managed to dodge her attack. When the castle servants had come and found him it had only been a while ago. They'd alerted him that there was a girl in the court yard shouting out and raving mad.​ 
He'd gone to subdue her but she was overwhelmingly strong for her size, that was until a maid had hit her with a frying pan. After she was knocked out, Link had tossed her on the bed of a dungeon cell. He couldn't take a chance that she could hurt someone if she woke up again.​ 
In the corridor behind him there was commotion, Link turned to see the servants bowing and placing their hands over their hearts, Zelda was rushing down the hall with her old nursemaid, Impa close behind.​


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## Tyrael (Jun 25, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well I got coaxed into writing for a fan fic contest, its Zelda based and its on this other forum I frequent. Long story short this is my first fan fic in years. So I have some stuff to brush up on. But I do have it here to show a little bit of what I have done!
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



The bold phrase is kind of awkward, as are other parts of the action but otherwise it's good, some very nice descriptive moments.


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## Hyde (Jun 25, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well I got coaxed into writing for a fan fic contest, its Zelda based and its on this other forum I frequent. Long story short this is my first fan fic in years. So I have some stuff to brush up on. But I do have it here to show a little bit of what I have done!
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



It's readable, but you might want to brush up on your grammar, a bit (with a focus on commas)...

An easy way to figure out where most commas go is to say the words alout, then put commas in the places where you made a sligh pause...


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## Tyrael (Jun 25, 2008)

Hyde said:


> It's readable, but you might want to brush up on your grammar, a bit (with a focus on commas)...
> 
> An easy way to figure out where most commas go is to say the words alout, then put commas in the places where you made a sligh pause...



That is a good way to determine and on another scan through something CTK does need to watch. I just want to add that it is a common misconception that comma=pause is a steadfast rule, as it ain't. But it can make things more readable.


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## Hyde (Jun 25, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> That is a good way to determine and on another scan through something CTK does need to watch. I just want to add that it is a common misconception that comma=pause is a steadfast rule, as it ain't. But it can make things more readable.



To me, grammar comes naturally, but there is at least one exception to most grammatical rules, which is why I went with that tip...


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## Tyrael (Jun 25, 2008)

Hyde said:


> To me, grammar comes naturally, but there is at least one exception to most grammatical rules, which is why I went with that tip...



Actually, my point was that it isn't a rule at all but a helpful tip for surface level readability. I wasn't disagreeing with your advice, just adding that it is not a steadfast rule for commas.


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## Hyde (Jun 25, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Actually, my point was that it isn't a rule at all but a helpful tip for surface level readability. I wasn't disagreeing with your advice, just adding that it is not a steadfast rule for commas.



Okay...

I'm working on a summer paper, but I haven't written a story in ages (two years ago, when I was in sixth grade, for an English project)...The many, many stories, adventures, and backstories I think up are usually just stored in my brain...

EDIT:

I was going to share the gist of my stories, but I'm not sure if this is the correct thread...


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 25, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> That female lead has a lot of potential and room for ridiculously deep symbolism. The male lead needs a little more depth but since it's early days it looks like the story has potential.



Yeah, I brainstormed up a great bit for him today. I don't want to quite give it away, but I believe it holds a lot of character for him.

I really am looking forward to getting to work on this, so I'm gonna do my best to finish up my current story before the year ends, and get this story started after my final exams.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks for looking over it guys, I went over it at work and changed a lot of things and I need to just type it up. Right now I have about three weeks to finish this. The birthday story is far more important to me right now. I am wanting to really make this person feel like they're important to me and the like. 

I actually had this idea, the Zelda one, when I was sitting thinking about the stories I used to write (and how utterly horrible they are) and I was thinking about the ideas that I used to have and how I used to want to portray characters. 

I want to try and revamp the characters I had back then and work them over and try to fit a few into this story. I might not give them the same roles but most of my stories were modeled after this other writers back then. I really admired her and all.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 27, 2008)

What's been happening here, no one is talking.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm kinda surprised as well. Very quiet after so much recent activity.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm having a dry spell of ideas due to logical thinking.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm just quietly working away until I finish my current work and can get onto the new awesome plan.


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## Batman (Jun 27, 2008)

So went back and fiddled around with one of my short stories in the 'modern fantasy' genre which I sort of like well enough. Not my favorite work of fiction but I think it's shaping up to be something fun. Tell me what you think about this. _I know I'm gonna hear it from Ty for not having completed the other short story but  . . . lol_


*Spoiler*: __ 



The Province of Algebra

01​

	Lance liked going to school more than you. Why? Because there he ruled, and not in a metaphorical sense. For at school, Lance was King! Jealous?

	The air dropping down from the blue sky felt crisp. The wind was sharp, and Lance was sharp to match. He wore the uniform: dark pants, a white shirt, black tie, and the floral-green jacket with the school?s crest on the front pocket; and golden stripes around the cuffs. But it wasn?t just a uniform. To Lance it was a canvas. His wallet chain tinkled as it clacked against his silver ringed black belt. His square toed shoes with the zippers that slid up the ankles were bright as liquid glass in the reflected sunlight. Even his shirt glinted where it was adorned. He?d tacked silver charms that various girls had given him, to the pockets and the button holes. His favorites were always the most visible, but he kept them in a steady rotation so no particular girl would think she was his favorite for too long. His tie was undone just enough, and collared by a chain that fed through a silver ring in the shape of a five pointed crown.

	Best of all, today was his birthday, and the entire school knew it. He?d told no one of course. Why should he when they followed his every action in a worshipful manner. He smiled. If this was what the world had to offer, he wouldn?t mind accepting for another fourteen years.
	?Happy Birthday Lance!? said three giggling girls in unison. That was sooner than he?d expected. He hadn?t even walked through the school gates yet. But there they were, huddled in their scarves, carrying bags in their hands: something for him no doubt. He spared them a small nod, and left them to squeal in his wake.

	Even the trees were respectful, tipping their branches as he strolled across the courtyard; leaves rustling a thunderstorm of applause. The windows of the building sparkled in the morning light like a flaming greeting. He could almost breathe in the fascination of it. More girls were following him like mice to a royal brie. They walked in a close cropped group; nettled together like bunches of branches with feet. When he moved to his left, so did they, staying far enough away so he wouldn?t notice . . . or so they thought he wouldn?t. He always noticed. He couldn?t help but notice. He was king - he had the eyes.  He walked toward the center fountain, dry at the moment in these cool winter days but blanch white, washed in yellow morning light.

	?LANCE!? said a voice, loud as ever. He could hear the heavy clop of his footsteps as he approached. Lance didn?t turn away from the statue of their founder, Reginald Ray Rhimstar. Instead he let the other boy greet him with his usual enthusiasm. ?Lance! Hey, Lance,? the boy whined. 

	?Hmm,? Lance said.

	?LANCE!? he shouted.

	?What, I hear you! Ok, Fen?? Lance said.

	?When are you going to start calling me by my real name?? Fen said.

	?I don?t have time to learn your real name now. Just change it to Fen so there?s less confusion,? Lance said.

	?Eh?? Fen said. Lance spared a glance as his best friend. Tall, with spiked black hair - tipped blue to match his eyes (he always said). But he at least was all smiles. Even at his indignation of Lance?s statement he wasn?t upset. Fen, or Markus Grand, wasn?t bothered by things like that.

	?Let?s go,? Lance said. He could feel the eyes of gathering girls on him again. Some of them might have been watching Fen too, but the majority were saved for Lance; the king; the blond star.

	?Oh that?s right! It?s your Birthday!? Fen said.

	?Really, Fen. Shouting this early?? Lance said.

	?You?re not excited?? Fen clapped his hands on his desk. They?d made it to their usual seat in the classroom; top left corner of the room, seats number one and two. Guess who sat where.

	?What?s to be excited about? It?s just another birthday. Everybody has them,? Lance said. He said that a bit loud because a few of the girls were listening in. And sure enough they chimed in with the expected ?awwwww? right on cue. It was almost too easy. Lance had to hold back a smile.

	?Yeah but now you?re fourteen. You can actually say that you?re the right age to be in this school. Doesn?t that make you happy?? Fen said. It was true. Lance had skipped a grade. By all rights he should still be in middle school, but what good may come from conquering the young?

	?If it makes you happy then it makes me happy,? Lance said. He gave a reassuring smile, and heard the sound of a girl slipping out of her chair and falling onto the floor. Most likely she was knocked over by Lance?s ?selflessness?. Lance of course did care about his birthday, but that was not how this King acted. He would portray that to him, it was just another day.

	Then he was presented with gifts. Each of the students lined up before lessons started, and handed him a token of their allegiance. Samantha Jones gave him a monogrammed pen set. He would have to add it to the pile at home, but he thanked her all the same. Tim Smith, with the curly hair gave him a card with twenty dollars inside. He much appreciated these gifts. Tim was right in assuming that he could not pick out anything better for his king than the king himself could choose. Lance made a mental note to speak to him next week when a lot of other people were watching. Ana Bosquetta gave him a hand knitted sweater. She presented it with arms extended and head bowed. Her straight black hair obscured her chubby face. She flustered a dark red when he placed his hand on hers in thanks.

	The other gifts were just as pointless. None of the other?s had thought to give him money, which was a shame. He could have added that to a pile as well, but it would be a pile that would be used at some point. Well to be fair, Fen?s gift wasn?t that bad. He bought Lance a pair of new sneakers that had been detailed by a local graffiti artist. The toes were decorated with silver crowns, which was Lance?s emblem. The teacher told him he should model them for the class, when she handed him her gift - a hat or an oven mitt or some stupid thing. He accepted it with a humbled smile and thanked her.

	Once the gifts were dispersed, she led them in a chorus of ?Happy Birthday?, forcing them to sing the round three times over while Fen conducted the glittery eyed girls with waving arms. Soon Lance had to remind them to get back to lessons. They groaned, but he gave them once of his stern looks and they quieted down well enough. He leaned over his notebook, writing down nothing but staring out the window into the sky while the teacher prattle on about topics he?d already memorized.  The birds seemed to unravel from the blue sky like cloth. They gathered atop the spotless statue to sing their own song. He wouldn?t be surprised if it too was in dedication to him. He found it so easy to be loved; to get others to want to love him as their King. So pristine was this world. So perfect.

	At lunch time the celebration continued. Fen had organized some type of surprise luncheon dance. They?d even ended school early so that they could celebrate Lance?s birthday. They played music from Fens? favorite band and cluttered together, gyrating like scattered molecules all serving a single heartbeat. Lance danced some, just enough to make an appearance but not enough to break a sweat. He stopped when he felt warm patches on his cheeks and took his seat on a large wooden throne-like chair they?d snuck into the cafeteria the night before.

	The party couldn?t have been more successful. He was asked to be the boyfriend of twelve of the fifteen prettiest girls in school. Three of them were seniors. He had a slice of raspberry ruffle ice cream cake, and he?d gotten enough presents to last him at least three months. So why did he keep looking outside? It was something about the blue sky. Like it was opening up into an area made up of bluer blue, or something similar that wasn?t blue but looked the same. It was as if something was happening all around them, but Lance nor the others were not privy to it. But still it was his birthday. He ran his fingers through his styled hair in that way he?d learned, so it looked like he was messing it up. But in actuality he was changing it into ?second position?. In second position he had a wilder, fiercer look. But the girls would think he was just messing with his hair, not suspicious at all. So easy. They would be caught unaware by his dominating new look. If he were at home he could have smiled. He made another mental note to smile for this particular occasion when he was alone in his room that night. It was all about perfect patience. Timing. Skill and poise. That was why he was King. Few could be the embodiment of perfection.

	Growing bored, he excused himself to the restroom. Three girls offered to escort him but he shooed them away. When he gave them a firm stare, with his wild hair, they fell back and let him pass. They loved that wild hair stare more than anything. He could see the absorbed heat smoldering in their eyes as he passed. 

	Outside of the cafeteria he and was hit by the sounds of emptiness. Here it was just another school hallway with no teachers and no lights, just the outside daylight that bled into the space - blue as blue. He began to walk and could hear his footsteps. Hollow, empty, but for the most part unimportant. He looked back behind him just to check, or just to be amazed by how that blue sky was spilling into the school like rain water. Maybe it too wanted to celebrate with him. Maybe it was choosing this moment to bow down before the King. He turned back and made to turn the corner, but bumped into someone hard.

	The person crashed into his chest before falling to the ground. But Lance kept his balance. A King doesn?t fall just like that. He?d never seen this person before. Some boy in some class with mussed up black hair, unkempt clothes, and jerky movements displayed as he gather his spilled books. Who was this person? Why wasn?t he at the party? He clearly went to their school. He wore the floral-green blazer, the tie, black pants and shoes, but he wasn?t at Lance?s party. And everyone was at Lance?s party.

	?Sorry,? The boy said. Lance made a move to pick up one of his books, but the boy leapt forward and snatched it from him. ?Sorry, Sorry. . . I just . . .? The boy dropped a few more books he?d just gathered and had to start over again.

	?Right,? Lance said. The boy looked up at him and had to adjust his glasses to see. To Lance he look a bit like a mole. ?Why aren?t you at the party?? Lance said in his calmest voice.

	?Unimportant,? The boy said. Lance stiffened. Unimportant? But he could not show it. He relaxed his eyes and smiled.

	?You?re probably right. It?s just-? but he never had a chance to finish. As soon as the boy had gathered up his books, he?s stood in a swift motion and scampered passed him, bumping right into Lance (shoulder to shoulder) as he hurried by. They might have even been the same height, but that was not important. He?d bumped into Lance, ran into him, ignored him even. Who the hell does he think he is?!


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## Tyrael (Jun 28, 2008)

Batman said:


> So went back and fiddled around with one of my short stories in the 'modern fantasy' genre which I sort of like well enough. Not my favorite work of fiction but I think it's shaping up to be something fun. Tell me what you think about this. _I know I'm gonna hear it from Ty for not having completed the other short story but  . . . lol_
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I'm not bothered about lack of a short-just means I have a better chance of winning the race, lol.

As for your piece, it really has a great flow and the pacing is very good. You build a good and somewhat surreal character and the imagery is brilliant at places-though I think describing the rustling leaves as a thunderstorm is edging onto hyperbole. All in all a really good piece.


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## Batman (Jun 28, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I'm not bothered about lack of a short-just means I have a better chance of winning the race, lol.
> 
> As for your piece, it really has a great flow and the pacing is very good. You build a good and somewhat surreal character and the imagery is brilliant at places-though I think describing the rustling leaves as a thunderstorm is edging onto hyperbole. All in all a really good piece.



Yeah, I figured you weren't fussed over it. This whole writing thing always ends up being slower than we claim. lol

Actually that's only the first half of the first "chapter" or part or however it's going to be split up. I didn't want to post it all for fear of the obligatory tl;dr. And your probably right about the over the top language. It was intended, but it was intended for it to be how he saw "his world" or how he thought that he was so magnanimous that the even nature reveled in his presence. Clearly my meaning didn't come through. I should have given an indicator before slipping into that description. That's a helpful catch.


But then again I don't know what I'm even going to do with this story. lol *sigh* I need finish things faster some how, so they're not just month old regrets in my pc.


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## Tyrael (Jun 29, 2008)

Ha, tell me about it. Ever since I fini'd the first draft of CA I keep starting projects and changing my mind am unable to really commit. My output has been crap basically.

Urgh.


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## Batman (Jun 29, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Ha, tell me about it. Ever since I fini'd the first draft of CA I keep starting projects and changing my mind am unable to really commit. My output has been crap basically.
> 
> Urgh.



I'd like to think that writing is like dating. You try out about a bunch of different girls until you find one you'd really like to write. Then you get married to the idea, sit down, and finally complete your book. But that's only if you want to write one book. So I suppose writing is like polygamy.


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## Tyrael (Jun 29, 2008)

Batman said:


> I'd like to think that writing is like dating. You try out about a bunch of different girls until you find one you'd really like to write. Then you get married to the idea, sit down, and finally complete your book. But that's only if you want to write one book. So I suppose writing is like polygamy.



Or a series of tolling and damaging serious relationships. Yet you still do it, 'cause you know of nothing else.

If that's the case, anyway, I probably have commitment issues.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 29, 2008)

Could explain while I'm so doggedly faithful to one writing project.


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## Batman (Jun 29, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Or a series of tolling and damaging serious relationships. Yet you still do it, 'cause you know of nothing else.
> 
> If that's the case, anyway, I probably have commitment issues.



Story of my life. Just aks my girlfriends. Hell check with my colleges. 



Lord Yu said:


> Could explain while I'm so doggedly faithful to one writing project.



I wish I could be that way. I'd get a hell of a lot more completed.


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## Tyrael (Jun 29, 2008)

I think the reason I am unable to dedicate to any projects is because CA is still stuck in my mind, so possibly I'm a mixture of both. Perhaps I should just leave all else and give that damn thing another go.


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## Batman (Jun 29, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I think the reason I am unable to dedicate to any projects is because CA is still stuck in my mind, so possibly I'm a mixture of both. Perhaps I should just leave all else and give that damn thing another go.



I know exactly what you mean. That's what I was really feeling last week. My current projects feel less important because my previous one is still unfinished. Maybe if you finish up CA you'll be able to properly move one. (if that's the one 2 finish)


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## Tyrael (Jun 29, 2008)

Batman said:


> I know exactly what you mean. That's what I was really feeling last week. My current projects feel less important because my previous one is still unfinished. Maybe if you finish up CA you'll be able to properly move one. (if that's the one 2 finish)



Yep, but CA is a huge unordered mess atm and I've dissembled the chronological order of events and many of the characters roles or even written them out. I've trimmed the story from 4 books worth to one book as well, as I have grown a dislike for endless sequels so it's hardly going to be short.

Maybe I should just forget all other writings and plow into it regardless.

What about your previous project, any plans to return to it?


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## Pan-on (Jun 29, 2008)

Hehe I have been sorting out my documents and I found my 6th year creative writing project and its making me cringe, also found various reflective piece's I wrote which are interesting if plagued with abysmal grammar.


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## Tyrael (Jun 29, 2008)

Anonx said:


> Hehe I have been sorting out my documents and I found my 6th year creative writing project and its making me cringe, also found various reflective piece's I wrote which are interesting if plagued with abysmal grammar.



I'm always interested by what my writing used to be (often I prefer it as well). You plan on doing any large scale writing projects?


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## Batman (Jun 29, 2008)

Anonx said:


> Hehe I have been sorting out my documents and I found my 6th year creative writing project and its making me cringe, also found various reflective piece's I wrote which are interesting if plagued with abysmal grammar.



I was doing something similar the other day. It makes me wonder who wrote all of the garbage that's in my pc. I'm also envious that you got to do a creative writing project for school. (it was for school wasn't it?) I'm envious of anyone who got to do anything of that nature in H.S. or beyond.

The last time they had us do anything like that in my school I was in . . . 7th grade. I hated creative writing because I thought it was mandatory for all of the stories to be based in reality.



			
				Ty said:
			
		

> Yep, but CA is a huge unordered mess atm and I've dissembled the chronological order of events and many of the characters roles or even written them out. I've trimmed the story from 4 books worth to one book as well, as I have grown a dislike for endless sequels so it's hardly going to be short.
> 
> Maybe I should just forget all other writings and plow into it regardless.
> 
> What about your previous project, any plans to return to it?


I think you should. Especially when you've put so much for into it. Sometimes you've got to see how it ends. I went through the same phase - the planning. But when I sat down and wrote it, the story ended up being so much greater than the sum of its parts, in a minimalistic sense.

I'm also a bit jealous that you were able to trim your story down to one book. That's not something I'm going to be able to do. Mine was 4 books from the off shoot and I can't change it. Not that I want to make it shorter but I _kind of_ want to because the draft for book two is presenting me with an entire different set of problems than the first book did. And I'm desperate to finish the first book, but I'm waiting for outside edits; so it feels like I'm sitting in an endless elevator that's locked from the inside.

I just want to make those last edits and never look at it again. For at least a few years.


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## Tyrael (Jun 29, 2008)

Batman said:


> I think you should. Especially when you've put so much for into it. Sometimes you've got to see how it ends. I went through the same phase - the planning. But when I sat down and wrote it, the story ended up being so much greater than the sum of its parts, in a minimalistic sense.
> 
> I'm also a bit jealous that you were able to trim your story down to one book. That's not something I'm going to be able to do. Mine was 4 books from the off shoot and I can't change it. Not that I want to make it shorter but I _kind of_ want to because the draft for book two is presenting me with an entire different set of problems than the first book did. And I'm desperate to finish the first book, but I'm waiting for outside edits; so it feels like I'm sitting in an endless elevator that's locked from the inside.
> 
> I just want to make those last edits and never look at it again. For at least a few years.



I might just do that, and in all honesty I had plans for four books only in the sense that I had four beginnings and four endings and a rough smattering of exposition to plug the gaps. So shortening four into one wasn't hard as it would be for someone who knew what they were doing. Most of it was overambitious/superfluous fluff.

And maybe the only way for the whole story to come together and gain clarity is for it to be subscribed to paper. The first draft was so incomprehensibly bad that I think I'll restart it.

But at least you have a fully edited and complete draft of your first book. No small achievement.


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## Pan-on (Jun 29, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I'm always interested by what my writing used to be (often I prefer it as well). You plan on doing any large scale writing projects?



my writing at least seems to have improved which is nice

I would love to get something long term started but I have trouble with the motivation, basically im just going to have to promise someone I will get one done or something, only way to get me to do anything these days.



> I was doing something similar the other day. It makes me wonder who wrote all of the garbage that's in my pc. I'm also envious that you got to do a creative writing project for school. (it was for school wasn't it?) I'm envious of anyone who got to do anything of that nature in H.S. or beyond.
> 
> The last time they had us do anything like that in my school I was in . . . 7th grade. I hated creative writing because I thought it was mandatory for all of the stories to be based in reality.



I actually took my university course (joint degree in English and Scottish literature) purely because i have the choice to do creative writing in third year.


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## Tyrael (Jun 29, 2008)

Wait, aside from the master of lit. Mcgonagle, we have literature? 

Honestly though, it's great your doing something that involves something that has a clear link with writing. Kinda wish I was doing that.


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## Pan-on (Jun 29, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Wait, aside from the master of lit. Mcgonagle, we have literature?
> 
> Honestly though, it's great your doing something that involves something that has a clear link with writing. Kinda wish I was doing that.



i actually chose it based on a bit of a whim cause i liked Edinburgh when i went to the open day. before that i was going to do computing


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## Tyrael (Jun 29, 2008)

Anonx said:


> i actually chose it based on a bit of a whim cause i liked Edinburgh when i went to the open day. before that i was going to do computing



Computing? *shudders*

Edinburgh is supposedly nice, since I'm a low scoring commoner I never even  considered it however.


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## Pan-on (Jun 29, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Computing? *shudders*
> 
> Edinburgh is supposedly nice, since I'm a low scoring commoner I never even  considered it however.



oh i agree, so glad i didn't take it advanced higher was painful

My results weren't amazing, i just made it, i left 5th year with ABCC highers , and upgraded the Cs to Cs at advanced higher in 6th year which was just what i needed. came very very close to failing one of them tho, which was computing actually

an interesting note, i took my higher A (business management) at advanced higher also and failed it then was informed my appeal had come through and I had obtained a D! (still a fail)


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## Tyrael (Jun 29, 2008)

Anonx said:


> oh i agree, so glad i didn't take it advanced higher was painful
> 
> My results weren't amazing, i just made it, i left 5th year with ABCC highers , and upgraded the Cs to Cs at advanced higher in 6th year which was just what i needed. came very very close to failing one of them tho, which was computing actually
> 
> an interesting note, i took my higher A (business management) at advanced higher also and failed it then was informed my appeal had come through and I had obtained a D! (still a fail)



BBC highers. That's it. I got three Ds and two outright fails (one advanced higher) though.


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## Pan-on (Jun 29, 2008)

I only outright failed higher maths, saw it coming really after i got 11% in the prelim

where are you again, was it napier?


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## Batman (Jun 29, 2008)

Anonx said:


> I actually took my university course (joint degree in English and Scottish literature) purely because i have the choice to do creative writing in third year.



*me*<--------- Jealousy abounds. I couldn't well my soul to get into a creative writing course. Including summer school. Including 4 different universities. They acted like I was insane each time I tried to sign up.

But then again I don't know if I could have waited until my third year. I'm a horrendously impatient person.


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## Pan-on (Jun 29, 2008)

Batman said:


> *me*<--------- Jealousy abounds. I couldn't well my soul to get into a creative writing course. Including summer school. Including 4 different universities. They acted like I was insane each time I tried to sign up.
> 
> But then again I don't know if I could have waited until my third year. I'm a horrendously impatient person.



oh the waiting is hard, im going into second year in september, i hope there is less medieval lit this year that made me go


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## Batman (Jun 29, 2008)

Anonx said:


> oh the waiting is hard, im going into second year in september, i hope there is less medieval lit this year that made me go



lol Medieval lit is always rough! >_< Why can't they just speak english. But I ended up getting used to it by about my last day of class. But hey just in time for finals.


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## Pan-on (Jun 29, 2008)

Batman said:


> lol Medieval lit is always rough! >_< Why can't they just speak english. But I ended up getting used to it by about my last day of class. But hey just in time for finals.



i got used to medieval english mostly, but medieval Scots...

Im Scottish, I can read Scots as easily as i can english but medieval stuff makes no sense! not only do they use letters which dont exist anymore, some of the words don't exist anymore either. I was in a tutorial made up of mostly Americans some of whom just couldn't read a couple of the piece's I struggled a lot myself. Thankfully it wasnt too hard to talk about, it was all inevitably about god.


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## Tyrael (Jun 29, 2008)

Napier indeed which by some unspoken definition makes me inferior to your Edinburgh qualifications.

Honestly though, maths was one of my best subjects, oddly enough. I was half expecting an A for it.

edit-being able to read classical Scottish is a fair achievement, never mind medieval stuff.


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## Batman (Jun 29, 2008)

Anonx said:


> i got used to medieval english mostly, but medieval Scots...
> 
> Im Scottish, I can read Scots as easily as i can english but medieval stuff makes no sense! not only do they use letters which dont exist anymore, some of the words don't exist anymore either. I was in a tutorial made up of mostly Americans some of whom just couldn't read a couple of the piece's I struggled a lot myself. Thankfully it wasnt too hard to talk about, it was all inevitably about god.



LOL thankfully/Luckilly I never had the privileged of being battered by anything quite so intense. But that's probably b/c I took it as an AP course in H.S. I never took many english classes in college.


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## Pan-on (Jun 29, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Napier indeed which by some unspoken definition makes me inferior to your Edinburgh qualifications.
> 
> Honestly though, maths was one of my best subjects, oddly enough. I was half expecting an A for it.
> 
> edit-being able to read classical Scottish is a fair achievement, never mind medieval stuff.



see even if i believed that i wouldn't say, mostly for my safety, im moving in with 3 people from Napier in september. And there girls so il just keep quiet.

i never expected to pass maths, i got bad at it around the time they started replacing numbers with letters.

classical scots I got used to, Scott was ok but i really didnt like Hogg.  Sunset song is a really good more modern scots book.


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## Tyrael (Jun 29, 2008)

Anonx said:


> see even if i believed that i wouldn't say, mostly for my safety, im moving in with 3 people from Napier in september. And there girls so il just keep quiet.
> 
> i never expected to pass maths, i got bad at it around the time they started replacing numbers with letters.
> 
> classical scots I got used to, Scott was ok but i really didnt like Hogg.  Sunset song is a really good more modern scots book.



Sly stuff man.

I'm sadly ignorant of the majority of my cultural heritage, only real Scottish I've read is the requisite Burns' poetry. Even that I had trouble with.

Talking of Scottish literature:



> Beautiful new railway bridge of the Silvery Tay,
> With thy beautiful side-screens along your railway,
> Which will be a great protection on a windy day,
> So as the railway carriages won`t be blown away,
> ...





Batman said:


> LOL thankfully/Luckilly I never had the privileged of being battered by anything quite so intense. But that's probably b/c I took it as an AP course in H.S. I never took many english classes in college.



And I've done less than that, the bear minimum into English. How qualified a writer I am.


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## Batman (Jun 29, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> And I've done less than that, the bear minimum into English. How qualified a writer I am.



Apparently nobody's qualified until they have something published. And even then it's subjective. 

I'm terrified that I'm going to die like Michelangelo, Raphael (not I think that i'm as good a writer as they were artists but. . . ). I'm scared I'm never going to profit from my own work and I'll die a penniless dreamer. But I only get like that when I think about the classes I never took, the books I've never read. . . 

Makes me try harder to make up for my lack of knowledge. I also have a feeling i'm going to get steamrolled in the upcoming bookclub by people with far more experience in such things.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 30, 2008)

Looks like I have been able to get this birthday story done in time, now I need to have it edited and sent off before the fourth, and I need to start and finish my contest entry so I can go ahead and not win that (because more than likely they're going to want some crappy love story) 

I have been trying to keep a more rigorous schedule and failing, I finished story four, started five, started a side project, started a gift, started a contest entry and then finished the gift...which means I have finished one of the things I set out to do. I think I might have needed some rest from the main story, as its structure makes it harder for me to concentrate and write.


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## Taurus Versant (Jun 30, 2008)

My two characters got names today. I really wanted to try and avoid using Taurus as the name of the main guy, but nothing else lets itself be said. It's a strong name, I guess that's it. The girl's name is Elise, she's got a hell of a story to tell.

Now I just need a title.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 30, 2008)

After working to fix my mother's printer and all I got the story to print, now I can sit down and edit it out to make sure that I get the story just perfect for my friend's birthday. 

But I need a title as well as some other small things to be filled in. I am working on the title and trying to figure out what little things are needed to flesh the story out some! 

I am kind of excited, because not only can I give it to her, I can post it. I am already thinking up an authors note to write. I will sit up for a few more hours working on it. I love late nights.


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## Double Arts Sui (Jun 30, 2008)

I'm finally getting things done.
Yet it's still a comic-like story.

TV: How about "Für Elise"? Like the musical piece ^^


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## Batman (Jun 30, 2008)

I'm studying Fashion.

I wrote something yesterday where the characters were semi-forced to dress in xpensive attire. After I wrote the descriptions and read over them I kept thinking: "Damn, that sounds ugly."


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## Lord Yu (Jun 30, 2008)

I pride myself in my good aesthetic sense. I dress for situation and personality. I have tons of designs in my head for characters.


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## Batman (Jun 30, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I pride myself in my good aesthetic sense. I dress for situation and personality. I have tons of designs in my head for characters.



Definitely something I have to work on. I'm a totally typical guy when it comes to that stuff. But I hope if I try hard enough . . .


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## Lord Yu (Jun 30, 2008)

I've obsessed over color and hair design coordination before. Its probably disturbing to look at from the outside.


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## Batman (Jun 30, 2008)

Nah. I could do with a leaf outta ur book. It sure as hell would be a big help now. lol


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## Lord Yu (Jul 1, 2008)

I have a dilemma. I feel that I've introduced a character too early.


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## Batman (Jul 1, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I have a dilemma. I feel that I've introduced a character too early.



Can their actions and/or dialog be given to another character so you can push their introduction back?


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## Lord Yu (Jul 1, 2008)

No they cannot. I was thinking I wanted the main to stay by herself for a little while longer. Emphasize isolation as theme. But I'm beginning to think I can still do that. I'm seeing many possibilities right now. Though I still think I'm rushing events just a bit. Not really too much. But I think there is something I'm missing. I'm beginning to think it was less of the character introduction that irked me. But downplaying the main character's reaction to her unfamiliar surroundings.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 1, 2008)

I hate when I feel like I have fucked a whole section of story...its hard to fix. 

Today I did a lot before work, edited twelve pages of my story, which was all of it and I am going to need to apply the corrections and try to send this to my friend for her birthday.


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## Batman (Jul 1, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> No they cannot. I was thinking I wanted the main to stay by herself for a little while longer. Emphasize isolation as theme. But I'm beginning to think I can still do that. I'm seeing many possibilities right now. Though I still think I'm rushing events just a bit. Not really too much. But I think there is something I'm missing. I'm beginning to think it was less of the character introduction that irked me. But downplaying the main character's reaction to her unfamiliar surroundings.



I hate when I have that "something's missing" feeling it bugs the hell out of you when it's there but after a while it'll usually come. I suppose you could go with your instincts and increase the reactions of the main character.




			
				CTK said:
			
		

> I hate when I feel like I have fucked a whole section of story...its hard to fix.
> 
> Today I did a lot before work, edited twelve pages of my story, which was all of it and I am going to need to apply the corrections and try to send this to my friend for her birthday.



I hate that too. I've had to rewrite chapters because of it. Annoys me every time.

Congrats. I'm glad the story is coming to a close. It's always a good feeling to finish a project. I'm sure she'll luv it.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 1, 2008)

I've never done any request stories. I've always written for my own purposes. I've even sold stories in the 3rd grade. People either take 'em when I make em or they don't at all. I'm not a very social person.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 1, 2008)

Batman said:


> I hate when I have that "something's missing" feeling it bugs the hell out of you when it's there but after a while it'll usually come. I suppose you could go with your instincts and increase the reactions of the main character.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I really hope that she does, the story is pretty much about her character and its kind of a romantic action thing. The fight was especially difficult to write because it was against an evil clone...what do you call one of those?


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## Batman (Jul 1, 2008)

Doppelganger


I've never tried to write a story for someone specifically. I've thought about it, but I wouldn't really know where to start.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 1, 2008)

Batman said:


> Doppelganger
> 
> 
> I've never tried to write a story for someone specifically. I've thought about it, but I wouldn't really know where to start.



I used the words, Doppleganger, clone, copy and shadow...

Oh and she was part of the series, or her character was. So I just went on from there with a little side story about her boyfriend.


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## Batman (Jul 1, 2008)

has she been helping you with the story as its been progressing? read any of the previous works and things like that?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 1, 2008)

Batman said:


> has she been helping you with the story as its been progressing? read any of the previous works and things like that?



She's read them all actually, and she loves how she's portrayed because its partly true to life and partly embellished, but she's no Mary-Sue or the like. Plus the story with her and Dee was genius I think, the two as a pair are just perfect together and a better character combo couldn't have come to me.


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## Batman (Jul 1, 2008)

That's real proper to be able to do something like that. I always have trouble bringing in real situations and characters into my works because I always found them limiting, even things based on real people or situations. (hence my general dislike for nonfiction or fiction based on a true story) I suppose someday I'll try and do something like that but I doubt I'll be as successful at it as you seem to have been.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 1, 2008)

Batman said:


> That's real proper to be able to do something like that. I always have trouble bringing in real situations and characters into my works because I always found them limiting, even things based on real people or situations. (hence my general dislike for nonfiction or fiction based on a true story) I suppose someday I'll try and do something like that but I doubt I'll be as successful at it as you seem to have been.



Well its more or less just a matter of me taking a person (whom I have to know pretty well) and using their traits and personality. Then applying those things, their essence, to other situations and guessing how they would react. Sometimes this method is used to write the back story. Other times its used to just write situations happening in the story. 

The hardest part is remembering that even if you start out with this chipper young gal, if your back story for her is bad then it still could make the character turn out different.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 1, 2008)

I don't really think I'm close enough with anyone to write about them. I'd get ultra embarrassed and slowly feel the need of spite and things would trail off and they'd make no sense except with Blender fiction. Maybe because I'm partially copying the work of other blender authors.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 1, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I don't really think I'm close enough with anyone to write about them. I'd get ultra embarrassed and slowly feel the need of spite and things would trail off and they'd make no sense except with Blender fiction. Maybe because I'm partially copying the work of other blender authors.



I am close enough to Auraya, I think there aren't many others...at least here on the forum.


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## Tyrael (Jul 1, 2008)

Batman said:


> That's real proper to be able to do something like that. I always have trouble bringing in real situations and characters into my works because I always found them limiting, even things based on real people or situations. (hence my general dislike for nonfiction or fiction based on a true story) I suppose someday I'll try and do something like that but I doubt I'll be as successful at it as you seem to have been.





Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well its more or less just a matter of me taking a person (whom I have to know pretty well) and using their traits and personality. Then applying those things, their essence, to other situations and guessing how they would react. Sometimes this method is used to write the back story. Other times its used to just write situations happening in the story.
> 
> The hardest part is remembering that even if you start out with this chipper young gal, if your back story for her is bad then it still could make the character turn out different.



Real characters never turn out real and the only situations we can write about are real ones as far as I'm concerned. I based a few characters off of real people, but those chars 100% fiction. My thoughts on the matter, anyway.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 1, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Real characters never turn out real and the only situations we can write about are real ones as far as I'm concerned. I based a few characters off of real people, but those chars 100% fiction. My thoughts on the matter, anyway.



I don't understand all of this really? Real characters never turn out real? And what's this about real situations?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 1, 2008)

Update peoples! 

The birthday story is completed and ready to go! 

The link to it is .

Its pretty PG-13.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 2, 2008)

Any new developments? I fixed some of my problems.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 3, 2008)

New development for my birthday story, she loved it! Really enjoyed reading it she said and liked how it all went down and her character. I didn't get the details on everything, but that was enough to put a smile on my face and make this past week worth while. 

I'm happy to have friends like her. 

At the same time, my friend who is also an aspiring novelist gets into town Friday and we are going to hang out some on Saturday, I can't wait, I have some story ideas to bounce off of him.

Good luck with the fixes Yu, I am actually going to go ahead and keep editing this birthday story, its pretty well fit into the rest of my stuff and I might be able to make a very good short out of it.


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## Taurus Versant (Jul 3, 2008)

Well, I've gotten a lot more planned on my (still unnamed) story, as well as a few extremely rough (I can't draw to save myself) sketches to teach me about my characters. All I'm missing now is one more major scene in the middle, the beginning, end, and a major scene for Taurus is planned.

I think Elise needs one now.


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## Tyrael (Jul 3, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Any new developments? I fixed some of my problems.



I say you stop going back and rewriting things and just plow on and finish the book, regardless of what you want to change. It help you in the long run.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> New development for my birthday story, she loved it! Really enjoyed reading it she said and liked how it all went down and her character. I didn't get the details on everything, but that was enough to put a smile on my face and make this past week worth while.
> 
> I'm happy to have friends like her.
> 
> ...



Glad she liked it and you have someone to bounce idea off of. It always helps by a large amount to talk things over with others.



Taurus Versant said:


> Well, I've gotten a lot more planned on my (still unnamed) story, as well as a few extremely rough (I can't draw to save myself) sketches to teach me about my characters. All I'm missing now is one more major scene in the middle, the beginning, end, and a major scene for Taurus is planned.
> 
> I think Elise needs one now.



How long have you been writing? You seem to have an admirably workman like approach to the whole fiasco.


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## Taurus Versant (Jul 3, 2008)

Middle of 2006 is when I started in earnest I think.

This story simply wants to be written. Same with Pyrotechnic, which I wrote in the middle of 2007, but this one, it's many many times better. It's gonna be my best to date. And it *wants* to be written. I'm going to have no problems with it.

I wanna get started now, but I gotta finish my current thing. Plus, if I start it before I finish my end of year final school exams, I'll be distracted. I can't afford that.

It's all about directing your writing, and savouring its taste, ya know?


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## Lord Yu (Jul 3, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I say you stop going back and rewriting things and just plow on and finish the book, regardless of what you want to change. It help you in the long run.



It was really a tiny patch. Now that it makes sense I've moved on. I had a time in the middle of the night where I forgot basic escape strategy. I'm back on track and flowing smoothly.


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## Batman (Jul 6, 2008)

sigh. Had to spend all of today and yesterday (when I wasn't eating bbq), thinking about a character that just sort of appeared in my story out of nowhere. Yet she's important, and in this next chapter I'm writing so I couldn't write about this stranger just yet. It was an odd break to have.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 6, 2008)

I had that happen. I'm still wondering if the characters entrance was to sudden or if it feels forced.


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## Batman (Jul 6, 2008)

If it does feel forced, you're probably the only one who can tell. I'll bet it'll read naturally.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 6, 2008)

I can only see how something isn't right in a story after I stop writing and look back over it in my mind. That's why I am taking this semi-break right now and writing other stuff.


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## Barinax (Jul 6, 2008)

I'm having trouble naming my character. I haven't written anything yet but I'm getting ideas.


*Spoiler*: _may be relevant but hmm_ 



He's basically a bailiff. I need to do more research on what they do. I only imagine him as going to people's houses if they haven't paid their debts, stealing people's cars, and auctioning them if they don't pay up. Or at the least, asking for it.

He's pretty cynical.




I was thinking of Alexander Eckhart but I dunno lol.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 6, 2008)

That sounds like a repo man. Bailiffs are court room guards.


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## Barinax (Jul 6, 2008)

Eck. A bailiff came to my school in the sixth grade and said that. He was either wrong and confused or... Canadian. Wait...



> If a lender finds itself in the situation of needing to repossess property while the borrower attempts to avoid this, the dealer may contract the work of repossession out to a repossession agent (colloquially termed a Repo Man, as fictionally portrayed in the film of the same name). Agents appointed by the courts are called bailiffs.


Thought I might end up using "Repo Man" in the end.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 6, 2008)

That's a repo man. Maybe they call them bailiffs there. Everythings upside down in Canada. I hear milk comes in bags there too.


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## Barinax (Jul 6, 2008)

Edited my post but... yeah, I don't want to get too specific, so I'll probably use repo man.



Lord Yu said:


> I hear milk comes in bags there too.



They do. 



The plastic is actually pretty strong compared to a regular grocery bag. You put it in the pitcher and cut it in the corner.


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## Tyrael (Jul 7, 2008)

I think a bailiff is how you described in Britain too-might the americanisation of terms that lead to the idea of a repo man.

Or I might be talking out of my arse.


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## Pan-on (Jul 7, 2008)

milk in a bag, thats insane!

i think your right about the British Bailiff thing


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## Lord Yu (Jul 7, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I think a bailiff is how you described in Britain too-might the americanisation of terms that lead to the idea of a repo man.
> 
> Or I might be talking out of my arse.



Here in the states I think most of that stuff is outsourced to companies that specialize in repossession.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 8, 2008)

I had to look back as I was wondering where all of this talk of repo men and bailiffs came from. But now I get it. 

Anyway, I have worked up another short, short story, basically based around a pair of my lesser used characters and it has helped me to decide what I wanted to do with the next major story. Same premise but, I want there to be more reasoning behind what I am going to do with it and there should be more build up.

What I basically have now is basically a young girl, say about six, and an a toddler get trapped in an alternate dimension made of dreams and memories. The girl's older sister, who is about sixteen, the boys older brother, who is the same age, and another girl go after them. 

I haven't decided if I want too many characters in this one. I think I want to keep it small. I had originally wanted a larger scale thing and to bring several characters into this from other places...but I figured that part of the trouble was that a lot of them were extraneous.


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## Tyrael (Jul 10, 2008)

Hump-de-bump

So I'm still grasped by a writing slump. Any suggestions people?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 10, 2008)

I have been trying to find new ways to say things that are sort of easily looked at as being too easy to describe. I want to juice my story up some, I think my symbolism would benefit greatly from some other words.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 10, 2008)

I've been reflecting on how my characters have changed between rewrites. I liked my characters better when I was depressed. =/

Right now I'm working on making things seem more natural.


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## Batman (Jul 10, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Hump-de-bump
> 
> So I'm still grasped by a writing slump. Any suggestions people?


Sock your system and read a Jr. fiction book. I'm finding it to be therapeutic at the moment. I had an afternoon and I read some of my books from when I was a kid, trying to ignore the extensive flipbooks I'd drawn in them. I read Fudge-A-Mania & The incredible Journey. Then I realized that I had a random 'Series of Unfortunate Event's' book in my room and I didn't know where it came from. So I tried to read that, but stopped when I realized it was one of those books where the majority of the world has no common sense. I hate stories where I have to buy into stupid town. I always have. But once I read something like that, it get's me to stop trying to hard and remember to have fun and writing becomes easy again. I also read the occasional romance novel. But that's because I'm looking for one that's actually good. I'm still looking.




			
				CTK said:
			
		

> I have been trying to find new ways to say things that are sort of easily looked at as being too easy to describe. I want to juice my story up some, I think my symbolism would benefit greatly from some other words.


That's always something I enjoy doing. Throwing in phrases that might make the reader look twice. Of course there's always the chance that it could disturb the flow of the piece (happened more than once to me) but taking that chance in searching for that small uniqueness is always fun.



			
				Lord Yu said:
			
		

> I've been reflecting on how my characters have changed between rewrites. I liked my characters better when I was depressed. =/
> 
> Right now I'm working on making things seem more natural.


Ha lol. Oh the ballad of the tortured artist. Maybe depression is just a very real emotion for you. I've always been fond of infatuation, longing, and smug domination. Characters that experience or portray those emotions always seem to pop for me.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 10, 2008)

My characters in the past often reflected states of emotion and confusion. Happiness, even false happiness is bad for business.


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## Double Arts Sui (Jul 10, 2008)

Is it correct to portray most of characters as being void of any vestige of sanity? :/


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## Batman (Jul 10, 2008)

Double Arts Sui said:


> Is it correct to portray most of characters as being void of any vestige of sanity? :/



If it works for the story then sure. But be careful not to make them too unpalatable. Make the insanity grounding in something real and it should be cool. But the best bet is just to do what you think sounds best. If you think it works then it probably does.




> My characters in the past often reflected states of emotion and confusion. Happiness, even false happiness is bad for business.


 Happy comes across as corny in my works, and usually results in characters giving each other high fives. Or I'll have them make fun of each other. (if they can think of anything) But usually it ends up as corny.

I'll bet you write good ironic happiness.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 10, 2008)

I start making dumb jokes. No one in my story will _*EVER*_ hi five. Unless you count a tag team thing.


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## Batman (Jul 10, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I start making dumb jokes. No one in my story will _*EVER*_ hi five. Unless you count a tag team thing.



I have to write a lot of bad humor before I can find something that's actually funny. Also Ironic humor doesn't really make anyone laugh, I've found out. Just makes them scratched their head saying 'hmmmmm' didn't think of that b4. And what do you mean by tag team? Fights? I keep getting this picture of tag team assassin's for some reason.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 10, 2008)

Yes, I can imagine some of my more "off" characters doing a tag team thing in a fight. My sense of humor tends to be dry or surreal. Dry when happy and surreal when depressed.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 11, 2008)

Actually, I've descended once into slapstick once when I was in up mood.


edit: In b4 perceived response lol.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 11, 2008)

Batman said:


> That's always something I enjoy doing. Throwing in phrases that might make the reader look twice. Of course there's always the chance that it could disturb the flow of the piece (happened more than once to me) but taking that chance in searching for that small uniqueness is always fun.



Yeah, but when it works its gold! 



Batman said:


> If it works for the story then sure. But be careful not to make them too unpalatable. Make the insanity grounding in something real and it should be cool. But the best bet is just to do what you think sounds best. If you think it works then it probably does.
> 
> 
> Happy comes across as corny in my works, and usually results in characters giving each other high fives. Or I'll have them make fun of each other. (if they can think of anything) But usually it ends up as corny.
> ...



Its hard to portray lots of emotions without it coming off corny. 




Lord Yu said:


> Yes, I can imagine some of my more "off" characters doing a tag team thing in a fight. My sense of humor tends to be dry or surreal. Dry when happy and surreal when depressed.



My sense of humor ranges. I have some pretty ditzy characters that can do some dumb things or do things in a bumbling manner, like the Personification of Death in the story. 

And what's wrong with high fives...I mean if it fits the personality it might work.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 11, 2008)

High fives are the high point of cheese. Not really to my taste. Don't really think I have any characters who'd do that...OK maybe Edelweiss for the lulz... But it would probably not get reciprocation.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 11, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> High fives are the high point of cheese. Not really to my taste. Don't really think I have any characters who'd do that...OK maybe Edelweiss for the lulz... But it would probably not get reciprocation.



I guess its okay in my story because some of my characters are kids and teenagers. 


Oh and I just finished a third person rewrite of my story Criminal. 



> He was standing shirtless at the window bathed in the dull light that filtered through the overcast skies as she fought to move across the bed while clutching the covers to her breasts. Her chest heaved and suddenly her ribcage seemed to small to contain her heart and lungs.​
> She tried to focus on the still playing movie in the television, it was the whole reason this had happened. They'd only stayed in because she had wanted to watch this movie. Causality had barely sunk in when she glanced to him. His mahogany skin seemed to radiate as he stood in deep contemplation. Something had to have come over her, the reddened ridges, welts, her nails had left on his back were the proof.​
> ?Maybe this isn't such a good idea,? she brought herself to say as she hung out over the edge of the bed, one hand clenching the covers and the other dangling down to grasp the scarlet colored bra.​
> Her heart was still pounding and her fingers skated across her skin in the subtle sweat as she slid back into her bra. At the window he hadn't moved in a while, she turned away and focused on the television again. For the first time she realized that it had come back to the menu screen.​
> ...


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 11, 2008)

Some are of my characters are teens. But they're the bitter introverted kind.


----------



## Batman (Jul 11, 2008)

I liked that story, CTK. It makes me wonder about the previous version. Do you consider this one to be an improvement?


----------



## Tyrael (Jul 11, 2008)

What were we saying about symbolism the other day CTK? Seemed to remember it was all rather interesting.

And high-fives are ridiculously cheesy but not necessarily bad. Angsty introverts are where it's at.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 12, 2008)

Batman said:


> I liked that story, CTK. It makes me wonder about the previous version. Do you consider this one to be an improvement?



Oh yeah the last one was kind of dry and it was more bones than meat and description. ALso its continuity wasn't right. 



Tyrael said:


> What were we saying about symbolism the other day CTK? Seemed to remember it was all rather interesting.
> 
> And high-fives are ridiculously cheesy but not necessarily bad. Angsty introverts are where it's at.



I was just saying that I needed to look for more vivid descriptions and ways to slip them in.


----------



## Batman (Jul 12, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> And high-fives are ridiculously cheesy but not necessarily bad.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 12, 2008)

I think now I need to work on my other little short story...its about snipers and its presenting itself as a problem.


----------



## neko-sennin (Jul 16, 2008)

*New Digs!*

Wow, it's been really quiet here lately. Guess everybody's busy. Oh well, maybe I'll actually have time to catch up a bit now that things have settled down. At some point before I moved last month, people were posting pics of their desks and writing setups. Well, here's my new room:


*Spoiler*: __ 







I have no pics of it, but my old setup used to be so _vertical_, crammed in the same room as my roomate's comp and equipment, with the filing cabinets stacked and the speakers separated and everything, I always used to worry about what would happen to my box in an earthquake, perched up on top of those cabinets... And I love the sheer amount of space. I've _never_ had a room this big! It sure beats having all of three steps of space to pace when I'm thinking. To say nothing of finally being able to get all my books and notes out of storage.




And here's one of the outer room and kitchen:


*Spoiler*: __ 





The greatest advantages of this place:
--AIR CONDITIONING! (after staying for over a year in a room that never gets below 100˚ even at the small hours of the morning, I cannot emphasize this part enough!)
--separate rooms (I'm a rather private person, and even though we are old friends who've roomed before, it still wore on my mind as the months went by, being cooped up with another person for so long)
--having a kitchen again (rather than feeling like an intruder in someone else's; once we have a refrigerator and a microwave, I won't have to eat out all the time anymore, and can actually cook my own food again)
--being able to sit more than 3 feet away from the TV while watching anime or playing games
--the sheer amount of floorspace (even with all of my friend's equipment set up out in the other room, there's still so much room to pace...)
--all the wall space (so many posters...)
--having a shower that _doesn't_ fluctuate violently between scalding hot and ice-cold every five seconds

...I could go on and on, but those are the things that immediately came to mind.




Though I was able to find CTK's desk pics, I can't recall if anyone else posted theirs, but I also came across this reference that struck me:



			
				wiki said:
			
		

> is a professional writer who is paid to write books, articles, stories, reports, or other content which are officially credited to another person. Celebrities, executives, and political leaders often hire ghostwriters to draft or edit autobiographies, magazine articles, or other written material. In music, ghostwriters are used in classical music, film composition, and popular music such as top 40, country, and hip-hop. The ghostwriter is sometimes acknowledged by the author or publisher for their assistance.



Really, while I already knew Pop and Country were as phony as the day is long anymore, I was kinda surprised to see Hip-Hop listed, as most MC's make such a point of trumpeting their own lyrical prowess. Irony abounds. 



Chee said:


> Ooooh, their like the ninja in the writing world.



lol, I guess, though this is one case where I'd rather take a page from Jackie Chan and do all my own stunts, but then again I've always held a strong ethic for giving credit where credit is due.

Now that I'm more settled in and set up here, I'll try to see if I catch up on things, including looking over the excerpts some of you have posted over the last month or so.


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## Tyrael (Jul 16, 2008)

Things have been quiet-guess the LD is just slumping again.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 17, 2008)

Hm I am not sure either, I have been messing around on other forums, writing this story with some of my lesser known characters and working alot. But I am excited to say that I think I coming into my voice more and more now.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Jul 17, 2008)

I'm trying to put together a title for my new story now.

I'm leaning towards The Curse of Love and Hate but I really want to be able to tie in the cursed sword aspect.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 17, 2008)

I haven't had much to say about my story.


----------



## Tyrael (Jul 18, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> I'm trying to put together a title for my new story now.
> 
> I'm leaning towards The Curse of Love and Hate but I really want to be able to tie in the cursed sword aspect.



Hmm, I think that sounds a little open and generic myself, would recommend being a bit more specific-would add character, as your book's title adds a lot to your readers expectations off of the bat.


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## Taurus Versant (Jul 19, 2008)

Flowering Hatred - The Curse of a Sword

Working title, but it works the plant motif, adds in the sword, and the driving emotion of the plot.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 19, 2008)

Simple titles seem to pack the most punch, don't try so hard to make the title complex and over exaggerated. Just have it be something crucial to the story


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## Lord Yu (Jul 19, 2008)

My title is reflective of the overall mood of the story.  Hopelessness, life for the sake of life. 

ZETSUBOUSHITA!


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 19, 2008)

The title of the current thing I am working on is "Open Season" its just a short story and it fits the mood nicely.


----------



## Tyrael (Jul 19, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Flowering Hatred - The Curse of a Sword
> 
> Working title, but it works the plant motif, adds in the sword, and the driving emotion of the plot.



Could work, sounds like it has some character, anyway. If a title isn't immediately apparent I normally don't think about it until the story is finished.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Simple titles seem to pack the most punch, don't try so hard to make the title complex and over exaggerated. Just have it be something crucial to the story



You forget the most awesome title ever-_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?_ Titles just need to sound original, nothing else.



Lord Yu said:


> My title is reflective of the overall mood of the story.  Hopelessness, life for the sake of life.
> 
> ZETSUBOUSHITA!



ZETSUBOUSHITA!


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 19, 2008)

My story's title of course being A Nihilist Fairy Tale
 

Meaninglessness


----------



## Tyrael (Jul 19, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> My story's title of course being A Nihilist Fairy Tale
> 
> 
> Meaninglessness



Boo hiss, I was hoping it would be ZETSUBOUSHITA!!! (extra exclamations added for effect). Preferably each of the letters a different colour-perhaps even strobing or at the very least with hints of neon. Would stand out.

A Nihilist Fairy Tale is kinda cool though.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 21, 2008)

That does it! I will have at least one tentacle rape joke!


----------



## Taurus Versant (Jul 21, 2008)

That *isn't* a mandatory?


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 21, 2008)

I had tentacle creatures before the rewrite. This is an inevitability.


----------



## Tyrael (Jul 21, 2008)

Wait, there are things you can write about that aren't tentacle rape?


----------



## EvanNJames (Jul 21, 2008)

Batman said:


> Just droppin a line. Am currently working on my first novel. Having too much fun with the antagonist.


 

I agree. I have three, and it's difficult for me not to spend all my time expanding their backgrounds, and how their lives fall between a world of grey, not black or white.

That's two easy.

The villain shouln't be complex, but a simple drive that determines what they do, not who they are.

I prefer that my antagonist mirror the protagonist, and in that way they share a bond that ties them together in within the same tale. That's what developes the conflict and also resolves it in the end.

I can't stop writing about the antagonist because it gives more depth to the story. Yet, I believe that a hero should be troubled, and just as developed and conflicted.


----------



## Pan-on (Jul 21, 2008)

EvanNJames said:


> I agree. I have three, and it's difficult for me not to spend all my time expanding their backgrounds, and how their lives fall between a world of grey, not black or white.
> 
> That's two easy.
> 
> ...



I dont agree that a villain shouldn't be complex, it all depends on what kind of story your writing. In some cases yeah have a simple villain but in other cases you have to make them complex or morally ambiguous to fit with the rest of the story.


----------



## Tyrael (Jul 21, 2008)

Well, the less complex the villain the more evil they are-the more complex they are, the more morally ambiguous your story is likely to be I generally find.

A means to an end-but the idea of protagonists/antagonists having some common linking point is a very good idea when using the most literal definitions of the terms. Having a hero and villain who are basically the same, save for one slight twist of fate, is always a great thing to do.

Neither do I agree that a hero should be intrinsically troubled (although such characters are often the most interesting at the forefront). All means to an end.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 26, 2008)

After several months of dragging at the rewrite, the story is finally going to kick off.


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## Taurus Versant (Jul 26, 2008)

Are you posting it here, or just writing it up for an attempt at Publication?


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## Lord Yu (Jul 26, 2008)

I'm attempting publishing.


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## Taurus Versant (Jul 26, 2008)

Best of luck with it then.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 27, 2008)

No ones posting. Everything good? No questions? Rants?


----------



## Pan-on (Jul 27, 2008)

Well since you asked

anyone got any advice about dialogue? I am writing something at the moment and I realised I have been avoiding dialogue recently because I dont seem to be very good at it, specifically in adding humour to it, everything seems cheesy to me and I don't like it.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 27, 2008)

Anonx said:


> Well since you asked
> 
> anyone got any advice about dialogue? I am writing something at the moment and I realised I have been avoiding dialogue recently because I dont seem to be very good at it, specifically in adding humour to it, everything seems cheesy to me and I don't like it.



Listen to people talk, listen and look for the things they do during talking that make them unique. Like have you seen Dark Knight? The way the Joker always sucks at his tongue, that would be something interesting to write into a character. 

Also make sure not to try too hard to make all of the characters talk in a long winded manner unless you want them to seem a certain way. Try to characterize through dialog, but don't use it to repeat plot points or get preachy.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 27, 2008)

I still think I have too much dialogue.


----------



## Batman (Jul 28, 2008)

OOOH!!!! I feel like I'm coming up for air! I've missed this place! 

But because of my work the past two and half weeks my boss offered me a raise.  But I had to turn him down. Mo money mo problems. :amazed

(actually more money more responsibilities I didn't want)


I've been writing on napkins for days!!!! 



			
				Lord Yu said:
			
		

> I'm attempting publishing.


You've completed a work? Or you've decided to finally complete one? I'm excited for you!




			
				Anonx said:
			
		

> Well since you asked
> 
> anyone got any advice about dialogue? I am writing something at the moment and I realised I have been avoiding dialogue recently because I dont seem to be very good at it, specifically in adding humour to it, everything seems cheesy to me and I don't like it.


 Don't write. Record. What I mean is, get to know your characters well enough so that you're not speaking for them. Get them to come to life and write down what they say. I'm finally able to just sit back and let them loose in a scene. Sometimes they can be asshats, but a lot of times they surprise me.



			
				 Lord Yu said:
			
		

> I still think I have too much dialogue.


I wish I had that problem. I sometimes get in the way of my characters good time with all of my flowery nonsense.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 28, 2008)

I don't think I ever really plan dialogue. I just let it flow. Sometimes I think I let it go on too long. I haven't completed anything yet but I'm trying my damndest. I think I've stepped back into old habits of not properly describing surroundings. At least to my satisfaction.


----------



## Batman (Jul 28, 2008)

Hopefully you can correct it all in the rewrites. That's what I always tell myself, even after the umpteenth one.

What genre are you writing in, or is it a hybrid like I suspect?


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 28, 2008)

Hybrid, Contemporary  surrealist fantasy or whatever. I don't keep genres in mind when I write. I'm also wondering whether I have a good balance between drama and humor. I used to feel a great sense of tension along with the humorous bite from my characters. At least the part I'm working on now, I feel may be more off the wall than originally intended. But that could be a good thing. Especially, if I can play it off right. This chapter is half a parody anyway.


----------



## neko-sennin (Jul 28, 2008)

Dialogue is something I've always struggled with. One of the best things I ever did as I got older was expand my circle of friends. Especially since I was able to find intelligent friends whose wit and unique perspectives always made for interesting conversation, and often provide indirect inspiration for a lot of my characters' dialogue. Also, Batman's got a good point about "recording"-- or as I tend to think of it, being an observer, a student of humanity.

Or else, if you're having trouble finding inspiration with your immediate surroundings, try finding books that are more along the lines of what you're writing, stylistically. One of the best things I ever did was start reading more outside of my usual range; anything you read, as long as it's at least average quality, can unconsciously help you make your writing flow more smoothly.


----------



## Batman (Jul 28, 2008)

Sounds wonderfully complex. I've been toying around with humor myself, finding mainly things that aren't funny at all, but every now and then something will make me laugh. I hope it will get a chuckle from a few other people.


Though I am thinking a bit about dark humor, but whatever I think about doesn't end up falling into place the way I've planned. Also, I suppose if you have to wonder if the balance is good, it probably is. If it was tipping one way or the other, you'd know for sure.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 28, 2008)

I use both dark humor and the utterly absurd mixed with a hefty helping of desert sand for that dry taste.


----------



## Batman (Jul 28, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> One of the best things I ever did as I got older was expand my circle of friends. Especially since I was able to find intelligent friends whose wit and unique perspectives always made for interesting conversation, and often provide indirect inspiration for a lot of my characters' dialogue.



I really wish I could do this, but I don't make friends very easily. So whenever I get the urge 'research' conversation, I go to cafe's, mall foodcourts and anywhere else I can hear conversation.




			
				Lord Yu said:
			
		

> I use both dark humor and the utterly absurd mixed with a hefty helping of desert sand for that dry taste.


lol i usually roll with sarcasm and 'sight' gags. Or good old fashion laugh at the guy getting hurt.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 28, 2008)

I have a psychopath who hums Do You Know The Muffin Man?


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## Batman (Jul 28, 2008)

LOL That on a continuous look in your head is  good enough reason to go crazy if I ever heard one.


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## Taurus Versant (Jul 28, 2008)

Batman said:


> I really wish I could do this, but I don't make friends very easily. So whenever I get the urge 'research' conversation, I go to cafe's, mall foodcourts and anywhere else I can hear conversation.
> 
> 
> lol i usually roll with sarcasm and 'sight' gags. Or good old fashion laugh at the guy getting hurt.



I enjoy character interactions. From dark humour to sarcasm and such. It's fun.

Sight gags are good only once in a while.

For example, one of my characters from Pyrotechnic took over a giant demon and tried to figure out what hand movements she needed to make it move. She discovered giving the finger makes it fire a massive beam. It was hilarious at the time.


----------



## Sky is Over (Jul 28, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm attempting publishing.



For some reason, I'm green with envy and angry towards myself. 

But best of luck.

Anyways, how many words does the average writer type per day, or least one of good talent?


----------



## Batman (Jul 28, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> I enjoy character interactions. From dark humour to sarcasm and such. It's fun.
> 
> Sight gags are good only once in a while.
> 
> For example, one of my characters from Pyrotechnic took over a giant demon and tried to figure out what hand movements she needed to make it move. She discovered giving the finger makes it fire a massive beam. It was hilarious at the time.



I gotta confess, that made me laugh. 




			
				Sky is Over said:
			
		

> For some reason, I'm green with envy and anger towards myself.
> 
> But best of luck.
> 
> Anyways, how many words does the average writer type per day, or least one of good talent?



I really love your username.

And I don't know about talent but when I'm writing the rough draft for the story, I average about 6k words a day. Stephen King says to write 10k a day, but I still can't write that much on a frequent basis.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Jul 28, 2008)

Batman said:


> I gotta confess, that made me laugh.





> She started by getting a feel for the Behemoth?s simple movements, getting its six legs to lumber around and bring it to face another Behemoth. Realising she couldn?t tell which ones belonged to Katsune and which didn?t, Sinshri swore and made a rude hand gesture. Ironically, this fired the beast?s signature green blast.


Yeah, that's her.


----------



## Sky is Over (Jul 28, 2008)

Batman said:


> I gotta confess, that made me laugh.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why thank you. 

And 6,000 a day? Shit, took me nine days in an enviroment with very little distractions to complete around 7,000. :S 

I sthere any specific techniques or discplinairy ways to increase the amount of words that can be written per day?


----------



## Batman (Jul 28, 2008)

Sky is Over said:


> Why thank you.
> 
> And 6,000 a day? Shit, took me nine days in an enviroment with very little distractions to complete around 7,000. :S
> 
> I sthere any specific techniques or discplinairy ways to increase the amount of words that can be written per day?



Just the BIC method. (Butt in Chair) It took me a while before I could pound out that type of volume. The hardest part was to not get up and do something else. But it helped that my story was already planned out and I knew where I was going.

But also I when I'm doing that, I'm not doing much of anything else so there's a pretty big trade off. (like I don't really watch t.v., I slowed down on the party scene, no gf etc.) Also from people that I talk to, I'm on the high side of the amount of words I type per day.

I say just get into a rhythm. Shoot for a certain amount of words everyday like 2k or a certain amount of time to write everyday like an hour. After a while when you get into the story you'll find yourself writing more and more. Just make a habit out of it.


----------



## Sky is Over (Jul 28, 2008)

Batman said:


> Just the BIC method. (Butt in Chair) It took me a while before I could pound out that type of volume. The hardest part was to not get up and do something else. But it helped that my story was already planned out and I knew where I was going.
> 
> But also I when I'm doing that, I'm not doing much of anything else so there's a pretty big trade off. (like I don't really watch t.v., I slowed down on the party scene, no gf etc.) Also from people that I talk to, I'm on the high side of the amount of words I type per day.
> 
> I say just get into a rhythm. Shoot for a certain amount of words everyday like 2k or a certain amount of time to write everyday like an hour. After a while when you get into the story you'll find yourself writing more and more. Just make a habit out of it.



Yeah, one big issue for me is that there's so many ways to get distracted, especially with my typing taking place on the computer, which can be beneficial since I would access to info. from across the web, but at the same time be vunerable to getting scitracked with other pastimes. 

Plus I got a T.V. running down here and a various assortment of other distractions. 

But come before dawn or the following night, I will have an organized plan. 

Are there any good books to improve/expand someone's vocabulary?


----------



## Tyrael (Jul 28, 2008)

6K? You still scare me Bats. I was at 1k fdor awhile, but I've kinda of fallen away, what with me still not with any sort of project to work on. I remember reading Pratchett used to only do about 400 a day, but he wrote 2/3rds of his first book in one go so...



Sky is Over said:


> Yeah, one big issue for me is that there's so many ways to get distracted, especially with my typing taking place on the computer, which can be beneficial since I would access to info. from across the web, but at the same time be vunerable to getting scitracked with other pastimes.
> 
> Plus I got a T.V. running down here and a various assortment of other distractions.
> 
> ...



The best thing for your vocabulary (and overall writing) is to read lots of fiction.


----------



## graysocks (Jul 28, 2008)

I really wanna start a routine of writing, as soon as this courseworks out of the way i'm going for 1k a day.



On a side note, do you guys write on paper or word processor? Maybe even old school typewriter?  I can't handle my handwriting so it's on here, and that's where most of my distractions come.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 28, 2008)

I have done 6K a day I am pretty sure...the most I every wrote (page wise) was about thirty pages in a single day. It was great.


----------



## Pan-on (Jul 28, 2008)

Wow and I thought i was doing well getting about 4 lines a day, although once im back at uni im going to try and get about 1 - 2k a day as a start

i jump between notebooks and laptop, i like putting ideas on paper but my handwriting makes people cry so laptop is easier for that, as well as spell checker. I would like to try an old school typewriter, less likely to end up on wikipedia that way.


----------



## Batman (Jul 28, 2008)

graysocks said:


> I really wanna start a routine of writing, as soon as this courseworks out of the way i'm going for 1k a day.
> 
> 
> 
> On a side note, do you guys write on paper or word processor? Maybe even old school typewriter?  I can't handle my handwriting so it's on here, and that's where most of my distractions come.



My handwriting is pretty atrocious. I was having this conversation with my mom and dad just last week. My mom's is delicate and slanted, and my dad's is so precise and elegant. It's like how the founders used to write. And his signature is like a work of art.

I look down at my own handwriting and it's like I'm holding the pen with my feet. But then again, they never even used a typewriter until they were in college. Me growing up on the word processor has made my handwriting suffer, I think.

So yeah, keyboard and pc for me.




			
				CTK said:
			
		

> I have done 6K a day I am pretty sure...the most I every wrote (page wise) was about thirty pages in a single day. It was great.



I wrote a 40 page chapter in the first draft of my first book. That monster took me like 2 months to properly edit.  Wasn't in a single sitting though, that one took me about two days I think.

In a single sitting the most I think I've typed is about 17-18 pages. And that's only when I'm getting near the end of  a section and I want to get it done.


----------



## Tyrael (Jul 28, 2008)

What formatting a'body use? (Without that info how many pages makes no sense).

Myself-size 10,new roman, single spacing.

About 800 ish words a page.


----------



## Pan-on (Jul 28, 2008)

same except I used size 12


----------



## graysocks (Jul 28, 2008)

When you guys say pages what font and a4 right?


Edit oops didn't see the posts when i typed it. I use 12 arial single space.


----------



## Pan-on (Jul 28, 2008)

i remember when i was in primary 7 i  wrote a report in a font called ariel alternative. Didn't notice until after i handed it in that all the L's were upside down.


----------



## Batman (Jul 28, 2008)

12 times new roman single, I don't know how many words per page.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 28, 2008)

I can write 10k a day in my good months I think.  I've said before I've cranked out 24 pages in a day once. Depends on the day and the character I'm writing.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Jul 29, 2008)

Man, I wish I could write that much.

I write in chapters, which are usually between 4 and 7 pages.


----------



## Tyrael (Jul 29, 2008)

You write as much as you can and hope it is enough, there's no real maximum or minimum.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 30, 2008)

Oh lawd! I think I just fell into a cliche. But then again during the same scene I made a joke about cliches.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Jul 30, 2008)

Is that postmodern humour?


----------



## Tyrael (Jul 30, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Is that postmodern humour?



Well, it's ironic. Post modern humour does very much favour irony i suppose.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 30, 2008)

One character tells another character not to be a cliche and then the scene ends in one. I guess that's pretty ironic.


----------



## Pan-on (Jul 30, 2008)

I have finally gotten something off the ground as it were and began to write something i have some hope of going anywhere. What I am worried about is whether or not the beginning is enough of a hook to interest people. 

This is the introduction which I have posted here before (and I used Tyrael's edited version with some slight alterations) 


*Spoiler*: __ 



There was a rattling then a click as someone unlocked the door.

Light from the hallway cut through the darkness like a pale sword as fumbling fingers found the light switch. Once it had been switched on the light took a few seconds to come on properly; each flicker illuminating the girl a little longer. She strode in and took a look around the room, it was considerably larger than she had expected. 

Her attention was first caught by the strange multi-coloured curtains keeping the street lights from intruding on the room; she glanced at the large, elaborately carved and almost empty bookshelf, which stood against the wall at one side of the room just begging to be filled. There were some grey plastic chairs stacked against the corner, the uncomfortable kind inflicted upon school children, and some fairly uninteresting tables next to them. Her eyes wandered from these to the far more interesting objects next to them. 

The objects themselves may not have been much more interesting, and were probably just more furniture, but a little bit of over imagination coupled with the white sheets that covered them could go a long way. She lifted one of the sheets a little and peered underneath; it was an armchair, and a well used armchair judging by the patchwork which covered every inch of it, making its original colour a mystery. She dropped the sheet and had a look under another; this time it was an old looking rocking chair that rocked silently for a couple of seconds as she replaced the sheet and moved on to the other objects. 

Once she had finished with the cloaked furniture she went to check if the other side of the room held anything of interest. There wasn't much-just a few boxes, a tall lamp and some sort of cabinet; the glass was covered in dust so she opened it to have a look inside. She stood for a moment taking in what she had found then closed the cabinet, smiled and left. 




And this is the first couple of lines into chapter 1

*Spoiler*: __ 



Chapter 1


?Hey welcome, you made it on time just go sit over with the rest of them; we're starting in a few minutes, just waiting for a straggler?

Caelie greeted another new face at the door and let him into the room with the others, this was proving far more popular than she had imagined. She hadn't been expecting more than three or  four people to be interested but they were up to nine people now and quickly running out of chairs. It was lucky she had picked such a large room even if size hadn't been her reason for choosing it over the dozens of others she had seen. She paced the hall turning every few seconds to look down the corridor until she heard the one of the doors at the end of the corridor opening. A tall boy staggered into the corridor carrying a large brown box.

?You're late, we were supposed to start ten minutes ago?

?Well you told me to bring this box for you, you didn't tell me you're not carrying it because it weighs as much as you do.?

?Oh?? She raised an eyebrow, ?so your a weakling since I know you wouldn't be calling me heavy now would you Glen?? She asked as she helped him get the box into the room.

?Wouldn't dream of it, damn these twig like biceps?  he replied shaking his head.




Basically what I am wondering is , is this a good beginning, now it is a first draft so I will go back and edit it but is the general idea a good way to begin.

please comment on the dialog too I am of two minds about it


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## Tyrael (Jul 30, 2008)

Anonx said:


> I have finally gotten something off the ground as it were and began to write something i have some hope of going anywhere. What I am worried about is whether or not the beginning is enough of a hook to interest people.
> 
> This is the introduction which I have posted here before (and I used Tyrael's edited version with some slight alterations)
> 
> ...



Give us more information and lead us in slower. Flesh the scene out and then give us a good chance to get first impressions of the characters. After that consider the dialogue. You need to work on pacing unfortunately.


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## Pan-on (Jul 30, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Give us more information and lead us in slower. Flesh the scene out and then give us a good chance to get first impressions of the characters. After that consider the dialogue. You need to work on pacing unfortunately.



thanks for the input a couple of questions

1. are you referring to the intro and the chapter or just one of them?

2.i was planning on having the information led into slowly, unveiled bit by bit rather than everything right away. there is supposed to be a sort of air of mystery about whats going on, knowing this would you still advise more information at the point shown.

3. not really a question but i have a bit more written where the characters are given more time to come into their own so im not worried about that right now.


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## Tyrael (Jul 30, 2008)

Anonx said:


> thanks for the input a couple of questions
> 
> 1. are you referring to the intro and the chapter or just one of them?
> 
> ...



I was referring to Chapter 1-and giving us more direct information would likely be counter-productive, but I meant maybe a bit more description or a few allusions or a little context. So far you've thrown us in there (not necessarily a bad thing, but give us something to float on). So don't give us any more plot necessarily, but set an atmosphere and create a setting that will make us want to find out about this mysterious group.

On first read through it's also a bit confusing as to who said what as well.

If my feedback doesn't make sense it is because I am tired.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 30, 2008)

It seems I've had a  reverse of sorts in my story with my rewrite. Out of my four perspective characters, Michelle's story was the one I was most happy with.  Now the others I feel are OK and Michelle's story is giving me a headache.

I have nothing to say on Anonx's story as I think Tyrael's word on it sounds better than anything I'd have to say on it. 

I need someone to look over my story that knows half a bit about writing. A friend I share it with tends to never have anything constructive to say. I think I have pacing issues and I'm not sure where the problem begins.


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## Pan-on (Jul 30, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I was referring to Chapter 1-and giving us more direct information would likely be counter-productive, but I meant maybe a bit more description or a few allusions or a little context. So far you've thrown us in there (not necessarily a bad thing, but give us something to float on). So don't give us any more plot necessarily, but set an atmosphere and create a setting that will make us want to find out about this mysterious group.
> 
> On first read through it's also a bit confusing as to who said what as well.
> 
> If my feedback doesn't make sense it is because I am tired.





fair points, I like the floating part. I shall see what i can do, I am trying to work out at what point to reveal what the group is, at the point I have it, its sort of anticlimactic but the scene makes little sense if i put it at the end so I may just introduce it at the beginning of the chapter.




> It seems I've had a reverse of sorts in my story with my rewrite. Out of my four perspective characters, Michelle's story was the one I was most happy with. Now the others I feel are OK and Michelle's story is giving me a headache.
> 
> I have nothing to say on Anonx's story as I think Tyrael's word on it sounds better than anything I'd have to say on it.
> 
> I need someone to look over my story that knows half a bit about writing. A friend I share it with tends to never have anything constructive to say. I think I have pacing issues and I'm not sure where the problem begins.



Il take a look at it if you like, i cant say im an expert at writing but doing literature at uni dictates I have to be at least competent at reading and analyzing, plus im staying up all night to fix my sleeping pattern and i need something to do.

plot, characterization, pacing etc I might be able to help with. Grammar your better off without my help.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Jul 31, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> What formatting a'body use? (Without that info how many pages makes no sense).
> 
> Myself-size 10,new roman, single spacing.
> 
> About 800 ish words a page.


 
Erm, I tend to change my fonts out of boredom, along with the size and formatting, because sometimes I have lines between paragraphs and others, I use indents.

I've used Verdana 10, New Roman 10, Trebuchet 11, Arial 9 . . . I change it all the time. Always single-spaced [ it irritates me that assignments always are required double-spaced ].


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## Tyrael (Aug 3, 2008)

I saw the final ep of the 4th new series of Dr. Who, and am reminded just what I want to be able to do with fiction. Damn, anyone got any advice on dialogue?


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## Pan-on (Aug 3, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I saw the final ep of the 4th new series of Dr. Who, and am reminded just what I want to be able to do with fiction. Damn, anyone got any advice on dialogue?



i dont really watch Dr Who, just seen a couple of random episodes, one of which may have been that one and i sorta get where your coming from.

as for dialog i cant really give any advice since i asked about it not long ago, but there should be something about it on that site i linked to in the convo thread recently


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## Tyrael (Aug 3, 2008)

Anonx said:


> i dont really watch Dr Who, just seen a couple of random episodes, one of which may have been that one and i sorta get where your coming from.
> 
> as for dialog i cant really give any advice since i asked about it not long ago, but there should be something about it on that site i linked to in the convo thread recently



I'm a casual fan of the program, watch it most of the time it's on-it's cheesy but it does surprise me from times by being varied, deep and occasionally showcasing brilliant writing.

I'll check that site.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 3, 2008)

I finally started working steadily again and I made it a page in a half without dialogue. Maybe I'm over exaggerating my dialogue issues. But well I've improved.


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## Tyrael (Aug 3, 2008)

If you have never seen Dr Who you owe yourself this. One demonstration of utterly brilliant writing, albeit in a tv program.

And you're beginning to sound like me Yu, with pacing anxiety-basically a lot of dialogue ain't necessarily a bad thing.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 3, 2008)

I've started to understand that some parts of the story just require a shitload of dialogue, which is good because I'm good at that and I enjoy writing it. Now comes the hard part of world background. Time to use that amazing on the spot BS talent I have.


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## Tyrael (Aug 3, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I've started to understand that some parts of the story just require a shitload of dialogue, which is good because I'm good at that and I enjoy writing it. Now comes the hard part of world background. Time to use that amazing on the spot BS talent I have.



Lol, I tend to find that BS is more useful with dialogue, that said I try to keep my style from being waffle. I could write padding is easy and so is under-writing: pity the balance is so damn hard.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 3, 2008)

I'm not talking about padding. I can pad dialogue scenes with the best of em. My BS talk is because I decided to come up with ancient tales of my world to flesh it out more. I have generally a whole books worth of tales of the Auravelius twins but I feel the need to do some local histories for places in my story. I need some other figures. Time to work the magic. Make the world live and breath.


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## Pan-on (Aug 3, 2008)

im wondering, how much does everyone plan their characters and plot before they start writing, i am doing that right now with what I am writing rather than trying to just make it up as i got along with a vague idea of where im going like i usually do.

I am also wondering about what to do, I am beginning to think my original idea is a little too ambitious for me right now and am considering writing something a little more straight forward instead but I am not sure if it will be as interesting in the end.

choice is difficult.


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## Tyrael (Aug 3, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm not talking about padding. I can pad dialogue scenes with the best of em. My BS talk is because I decided to come up with ancient tales of my world to flesh it out more. I have generally a whole books worth of tales of the Auravelius twins but I feel the need to do some local histories for places in my story. I need some other figures. Time to work the magic. Make the world live and breath.



Indeed-be careful not too go to far and go on huge tangents talking about the history too much, might take the pace out of the story.



Anonx said:


> im wondering, how much does everyone plan their characters and plot before they start writing, i am doing that right now with what I am writing rather than trying to just make it up as i got along with a vague idea of where im going like i usually do.
> 
> I am also wondering about what to do, I am beginning to think my original idea is a little too ambitious for me right now and am considering writing something a little more straight forward instead but I am not sure if it will be as interesting in the end.
> 
> choice is difficult.



This writing process is my planning process at the moment. And it's damn late and I've got 1000 words to do before bed so I am...well, wish me luck.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 3, 2008)

I've planned my characters thoroughly. Their inner workings and conflicts are what I think about the most. As far as historic tangents go, I'm far too lazy to get all academic on people. I talk of just your average cultural heroes and local saints, stories of daring do and whatnot.


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## Pan-on (Aug 3, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I've planned my characters thoroughly. Their inner workings and conflicts are what I think about the most. As far as historic tangents go, I'm far too lazy to get all academic on people. I talk of just your average cultural heroes and local saints, stories of daring do and whatnot.



I tend to find history in novels more interesting when you are given small peices of informations gradually rather then large chunks which some writers *coughgoodkindcough* tend to use. its nice when there is a sense of mystery about the past rather than knowing everything.

I am having a minor problem with one of my characters in that he is turning into me...i should give him an eye patch, i dont wear an eyepatch


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## Lord Yu (Aug 3, 2008)

Since a large amount of my background stuff will largely be made up on the spot I doubt I'll go to far. With character histories though. Some things in the first chapter I admit I felt I could have revealed more gradually. Oh well that's what editing is for. I'll just write up as normal till I've found a point where I'm comfortable enough with that character to go back and spread things out.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 3, 2008)

You guys have been some busy little bees. Between my drawing, playing of Final Fantasy IV and rampant skirt chasing...I haven't written shit.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 4, 2008)

I have no life.


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## Tyrael (Aug 4, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I have no life.



Unfortunately I have to echo these words.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 4, 2008)

I smell like cigarettes and booze...now I am a true writer.


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## Pan-on (Aug 4, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I smell like cigarettes and booze...now I am a true writer.



dammit does that mean i have to take up smoking to be a writer  ah the sarcifices...


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## Tyrael (Aug 4, 2008)

I have no life. I am the "True Writer" here, Yu 'n' I.


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## Serp (Aug 4, 2008)

Life what is that , I lost mine when I opened microsoft word.

 Hi guys.


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## Tyrael (Aug 4, 2008)

Serp said:


> Life what is that , I lost mine when I opened microsoft word.
> 
> Hi guys.



Not sure: I think it is green.

'Sup serp, how's that werewolf thing comin' along?


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## Serp (Aug 4, 2008)

Thats coming along... meh. I'm still stuck about transition, like I have a storyboard but not sure how long to spend on each part or how to get to the next scene. But my magic one is doing well. 

But enough about me, how is your work coming along?


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## Pan-on (Aug 4, 2008)

out of curiosity based on the true writer thing how many people here:

1. Actually want to be a writer as a career

2. Are actually actively trying to become a writer


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## Tyrael (Aug 4, 2008)

Serp said:


> Thats coming along... meh. I'm still stuck about transition, like I have a storyboard but not sure how long to spend on each part or how to get to the next scene. But my magic one is doing well.
> 
> But enough about me, how is your work coming along?



Transition? those are always the easiest I find-it's where stuff has stop building up and starts happening. But it can be rather tricky to start though. Glad to hear you have one work ticking over nicely, though I imagine they must be hard to balance.

My own work has at last took on shape. I am running face first into something and struggling to find a voice for my protagonist: not worrying about it yet though.



Anonx said:


> out of curiosity based on the true writer thing how many people here:
> 
> 1. Actually want to be a writer as a career
> 
> 2. Are actually actively trying to become a writer



I have been avoiding those question for a long time, despite knowing the answers. In the meantime I write, and I will strive to be as good as I can. I am damn well at least gonna give it a hell o' a shot.

How 'bout yourself?


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## Serp (Aug 4, 2008)

Yea like with the werewolf one, the first battle is finished and I wanna easily have them in a group setting and talking again, but I can't just go. "As I looked outward past the many fallen, I saw the others returning. When they got back we sat down and ate lunch ." (not actual dialogue) I want to be able to slowly ease the story out of battle/war mode back to normal without it seeming forced.

And my other story is also giving me headache but for the right reasons. It also being a fantasy, but set in a different universe to my other fantasies has the rules of everything twisted. The rules are different, like how magic works and the concept of demons, so I am having to rebuild a universe similar yet different to my original its quite fun, but I'm afraid that readers will be a bit unsure about it, say if they read one and decide to try my other works, the premise, style and workings of the first which are usually carried over into the other is gone but meh, I'm having fun so I'm fine.


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## Pan-on (Aug 4, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I have been avoiding those question for a long time, despite knowing the answers. In the meantime I write, and I will strive to be as good as I can. I am damn well at least gonna give it a hell o' a shot.
> 
> How 'bout yourself?



a couple of years ago i wanted to make video games and at some point in my life write a book but due to a variety of reasons I decided to focus on writing.

I do want to be a writer and I am trying to work towards it, iv never really given any thought to the idea that I would fail, not because im arrogant but because thats just how i am, i never made any plans about what i would do if i didnt get into uni despite it being 50/50 whether id get in. That kind of attitude will come back and get me one day.

I am an incredibly slow learner though which means it may take me some time to get to the level I feel is acceptable.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 4, 2008)

^Brother! I too wanted to make games. I turned to novel writing because the story kept getting thicker and its not as easy to get into the scenario writing side of gaming. The gaming schools are all programming classes.


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## Pan-on (Aug 4, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> ^Brother! I too wanted to make games. I turned to novel writing because the story kept getting thicker and its not as easy to get into the scenario writing side of gaming. The gaming schools are all programming classes.



yeah I failed maths so no programming for me, I did have an unconditional offer to do a games management course which had some stuff that looked interesting in it, however I liked edinburgh better than dundee and the course itself was fairly useless, i mean they had a thing called games appreciation, where you sat and played game! The interview for the course was basically "whats your favourite game" after that i could have got in despite only having half the grades.

Anyway I think i made the right choice and next year i can take creative writing as part of my course which im looking forward to.


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## Tyrael (Aug 4, 2008)

Serp said:


> Yea like with the werewolf one, the first battle is finished and I wanna easily have them in a group setting and talking again, but I can't just go. "As I looked outward past the many fallen, I saw the others returning. When they got back we sat down and ate lunch ." (not actual dialogue) I want to be able to slowly ease the story out of battle/war mode back to normal without it seeming forced.
> 
> And my other story is also giving me headache but for the right reasons. It also being a fantasy, but set in a different universe to my other fantasies has the rules of everything twisted. The rules are different, like how magic works and the concept of demons, so I am having to rebuild a universe similar yet different to my original its quite fun, but I'm afraid that readers will be a bit unsure about it, say if they read one and decide to try my other works, the premise, style and workings of the first which are usually carried over into the other is gone but meh, I'm having fun so I'm fine.



Well at least your having fun: maybe pulling back and not showing any character interaction after the battle, maybe skip forward a week or so and imply a lot. It may be a cop out of sorts, but it could work very well.

And don't worry about that variety, readers don't mind having books with diff. universal mechanisms as far as I can tell.



Anonx said:


> a couple of years ago i wanted to make video games and at some point in my life write a book but due to a variety of reasons I decided to focus on writing.
> 
> I do want to be a writer and I am trying to work towards it, iv never really given any thought to the idea that I would fail, not because im arrogant but because thats just how i am, i never made any plans about what i would do if i didnt get into uni despite it being 50/50 whether id get in. That kind of attitude will come back and get me one day.
> 
> I am an incredibly slow learner though which means it may take me some time to get to the level I feel is acceptable.



Heh, just stick it out. I guess I'm the same a nice wee bubble we live in. That said, weirder things have happened.



Lord Yu said:


> ^Brother! I too wanted to make games. I turned to novel writing because the story kept getting thicker and its not as easy to get into the scenario writing side of gaming. The gaming schools are all programming classes.



Doing writing because it's the easier choice? That's an odd concept, but you're probably right. Although I bet it's closer to doing screenplays.


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## Pan-on (Aug 4, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Heh, just stick it out. I guess I'm the same a nice wee bubble we live in. That said, weirder things have happened.



Yeah thats one way to look at it, what I need is a reason to get some writing done, one of my problems is being immune to all but the most extreme pressure.

I may try to get something published in the uni newspaper next term, it shouldnt be that hard, my flatmate managed and some of the stuff in the creative section was pretty dire. Some nice stuff as well though.


> Doing writing because it's the easier choice? That's an odd concept, but you're probably right. Although I bet it's closer to doing screenplays.



theres a part of me that thinks i want to write because its the harder choice, i have a tendancy to do things the hard way for some reason.


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## Tyrael (Aug 4, 2008)

Anonx said:


> Yeah thats one way to look at it, what I need is a reason to get some writing done, one of my problems is being immune to all but the most extreme pressure.
> 
> I may try to get something published in the uni newspaper next term, it shouldnt be that hard, my flatmate managed and some of the stuff in the creative section was pretty dire. Some nice stuff as well though.
> 
> ...



Ed. has a newspaper with a creative section? Damn, I might try getting one of my mates to check that out and try blagging my way onto it.

Writing is phenomenally hard choice and not a decent career choice-about as realistic as becoming a multi-millionaire popstar. But we try anyway.


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## Pan-on (Aug 4, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Ed. has a newspaper with a creative section? Damn, I might try getting one of my mates to check that out and try blagging my way onto it.
> 
> Writing is phenomenally hard choice and not a decent career choice-about as realistic as becoming a multi-millionaire popstar. But we try anyway.



yeah it has a name but iv forgotten, it had short stories, longer serials and poetry as well as really bad cartoons on the back and some random stuff.

there was a bit about various clubs and bars in edinburgh which was pretty funny

the tron -mind your head
whynot - she's 13 thats why not
caberay voltaire - call it cab vol if you dont want to look like an idiot

and more iv forgoten, anyway there only funny if you know anything about them.

as for writing not being a great career, well I always was pretty lucky


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## Tyrael (Aug 4, 2008)

Anonx said:


> yeah it has a name but iv forgotten, it had short stories, longer serials and poetry as well as really bad cartoons on the back and some random stuff.
> 
> there was a bit about various clubs and bars in edinburgh which was pretty funny
> 
> ...



Never heard of the WhyNot. And if you are really lucky I envy you.

And I depart as I have to write 1000 words in half an hour.

Heh.


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## Pan-on (Aug 4, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Never heard of the WhyNot. And if you are really lucky I envy you.
> 
> And I depart as I have to write 1000 words in half an hour.
> 
> Heh.



whynot isnt a particularly nice place, i did like the tron though.

wow thats impressive, i might try and get my FF thing done before i go to bed.


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## Tyrael (Aug 5, 2008)

Anonx said:


> whynot isnt a particularly nice place, i did like the tron though.
> 
> wow thats impressive, i might try and get my FF thing done before i go to bed.



The Tron is alright.

And I failed, I got 600 done in 40-odd minutes. Still, at least I gave it a decent attempt.


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## Pan-on (Aug 5, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> The Tron is alright.
> 
> And I failed, I got 600 done in 40-odd minutes. Still, at least I gave it a decent attempt.



I used to live quite near the tron, the quiz machine stole so much of my money...

thats still not bad, im very inconsistent in what I can get done depending on what I am writing and what mood im in, sometimes im just too easily distracted to get anything meaningful done.


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## Tyrael (Aug 5, 2008)

Anonx said:


> I used to live quite near the tron, the quiz machine stole so much of my money...
> 
> thats still not bad, im very inconsistent in what I can get done depending on what I am writing and what mood im in, sometimes im just too easily distracted to get anything meaningful done.



Me too, it's all about discipline. At times I even have discipline.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Aug 5, 2008)

Anonx said:


> out of curiosity based on the true writer thing how many people here:
> 
> 1. Actually want to be a writer as a career
> 
> 2. Are actually actively trying to become a writer


 
1. Yes, but I most likely will not remain in the constantly-floating "freelancer" category that many others do. A mix of idea and the ability to do well with people pull me away from the "starving artist" niche and push me into putting forth business with writing. Pursuing journalism is more technical writing, but I enjoy both and distinctly seperate the two. I wish it would overlap more; unfortunately, I believe it won't. My goal remains still to complete a novel at some point in my life, but I have a craving for the business and advertising that I feel will accompany the technical writing I like. Hopefully, the deeper writing I've always loved can walk hand-in-hand.

2.  Already a writer. Striving to become a_ better _writer.


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## Pan-on (Aug 5, 2008)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> 1. Yes, but I most likely will not remain in the constantly-floating "freelancer" category that many others do. A mix of idea and the ability to do well with people pull me away from the "starving artist" niche and push me into putting forth business with writing. Pursuing journalism is more technical writing, but I enjoy both and distinctly seperate the two. I wish it would overlap more; unfortunately, I believe it won't. My goal remains still to complete a novel at some point in my life, but I have a craving for the business and advertising that I feel will accompany the technical writing I like. Hopefully, the deeper writing I've always loved can walk hand-in-hand.
> 
> 2.  Already a writer. Striving to become a_ better _writer.



thats pretty impressive, I have wanted to give journalistic writing a proper shot at some point, I have reviewed a couple of things before and it was fairly fun, it seems like a good way to become more disciplined


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 5, 2008)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> 1. Yes, but I most likely will not remain in the constantly-floating "freelancer" category that many others do. A mix of idea and the ability to do well with people pull me away from the "starving artist" niche and push me into putting forth business with writing. Pursuing journalism is more technical writing, but I enjoy both and distinctly seperate the two. I wish it would overlap more; unfortunately, I believe it won't. My goal remains still to complete a novel at some point in my life, but I have a craving for the business and advertising that I feel will accompany the technical writing I like. Hopefully, the deeper writing I've always loved can walk hand-in-hand.
> 
> 2.  Already a writer. Striving to become a_ better _writer.



I think I fall into this same boat, I want to be a writer that has another job, like teaching or something. I can't just be freelance and I don't know how much I would like writing journalism pieces or editorials. 

At the same time, I consider myself to already be a writer...and I am striving to get better.


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## Tyrael (Aug 5, 2008)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> 1. Yes, but I most likely will not remain in the constantly-floating "freelancer" category that many others do. A mix of idea and the ability to do well with people pull me away from the "starving artist" niche and push me into putting forth business with writing. Pursuing journalism is more technical writing, but I enjoy both and distinctly seperate the two. I wish it would overlap more; unfortunately, I believe it won't. My goal remains still to complete a novel at some point in my life, but I have a craving for the business and advertising that I feel will accompany the technical writing I like. Hopefully, the deeper writing I've always loved can walk hand-in-hand.
> 
> 2.  Already a writer. Striving to become a_ better _writer.



I take my hat off to you-a writer with realistic goals. Not some dreamer wannabe like myself. And technical writing and creative are in no way mutually exclusive, you'll be able to integrate them together.

And I envy you, as I don't consider myself a writer at the moment. Not by a long shot.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Aug 5, 2008)

Anonx said:


> thats pretty impressive, I have wanted to give journalistic writing a proper shot at some point, I have reviewed a couple of things before and it was fairly fun, it seems like a good way to become more disciplined


 
It really is fun. I love critiquing and editing as well; it is a great way to expose yourself to varying styles and accept people that may have a better grasp on something than you do. Being editor-in-chief for the school newspaper [ my second and last year is this year ] was honestly one of the smartest and most enjoyable things I ever participated in. Definitely helps you work with others with different talents, along with patience but also discipline. Finishing out senior year with a Creative Writing class will help me brush up on the freelancing I've been neglecting [ college preparation ], so come college I should be up to scratch. Decent, at least. 



> I think I fall into this same boat, I want to be a writer that has another job, like teaching or something. I can't just be freelance and I don't know how much I would like writing journalism pieces or editorials.


 
Technical writing isn't for everyone. If I could somehow incorporate business work, people-work, and writing all in one I could be set. Editor-in-Chief for any major publishing company would be close, though I haven't researched enough on how business-related that all is, or at least, how it all ties in.




> At the same time, I consider myself to already be a writer...and I am striving to get better.


 




> I take my hat off to you-a writer with realistic goals. Not some dreamer wannabe like myself. *And technical writing and creative are in no way mutually exclusive, you'll be able to integrate them together.*
> 
> And I envy you, as I don't consider myself a writer at the moment. Not by a long shot.


 
Why thank you. 

While you are *correct*, I also fear that they will become . . . inseperable. I've always loved being able to put myself fully into one mindset and remain there. Combining them is great too, but if I have a purely editorial career, I would still want to be able to perform top-notch with the mindset, and vice versa, upon writing a novel or story.


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## Tyrael (Aug 5, 2008)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> While you are *correct*, I also fear that they will become . . . inseperable. I've always loved being able to put myself fully into one mindset and remain there. Combining them is great too, but if I have a purely editorial career, I would still want to be able to perform top-notch with the mindset, and vice versa, upon writing a novel or story.



I don't think that'd even be such a bad thing-due to the context you'd be doing one and not the other, yet to have your own particular flavour to everything writing, be it technical or creative. If you have a purely editorial career, a certain amount of creativity is automatically need, and vice versa, and then the actual task you are doing would sort itself out.


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## Pan-on (Aug 5, 2008)

You could always try something simple to separate the two, for example write your technical writing in a different font from your creative writing, i know it isnt much but if you begin to make the connection it could keep the mindsets separate


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## Tyrael (Aug 6, 2008)

There are times-maybe you read another piece of writing, or maybe you sit down and read you own writing-and are reminded just how ghastly the pieces of shit that are spewed from your fingertips are. Anyone else ever find this?


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## Pan-on (Aug 6, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> There are times-maybe you read another piece of writing, or maybe you sit down and read you own writing-and are reminded just how ghastly the pieces of shit that are spewed from your fingertips are. Anyone else ever find this?



yeah especially my older writing, its nice to see I have improved but some of my older stuff is just...


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 7, 2008)

Looking at old writing?

Yeah, probably for the best not to go there.

The line about always improving? Is true.


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## Tyrael (Aug 7, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Looking at old writing?
> 
> Yeah, probably for the best not to go there.
> 
> The line about always improving? Is true.



Heh, therein lies the problem: I, personally, do not believe I am improving. Hell, if anything, my writing is getting worse.

Perhaps uniquely by the sound of it, I quite enjoying looking over my old work.It always seems better than my recent stuff.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 7, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Looking at old writing?
> 
> Yeah, probably for the best not to go there.
> 
> The line about always improving? Is true.



I am addblocking your creepy ass signature sir...

Anyway, I have been suffering from Writers Block induced by this girl from work and the things that happened there...now that that's all over I think I will actually be able to write again. And since I am home sick today, what better time to start than now?


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## Pan-on (Aug 7, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I am addblocking your creepy ass signature sir...
> 
> Anyway, I have been suffering from Writers Block induced by this girl from work and the things that happened there...now that that's all over I think I will actually be able to write again. And since I am home sick today, what better time to start than now?



you got writers block from a girl at work! I didn't know it was contagious


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 7, 2008)

Anonx said:


> you got writers block from a girl at work! I didn't know it was contagious



I actually just got it from dealing with her. She had basically clogged up all my thought processes...


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## Tyrael (Aug 7, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I actually just got it from dealing with her. She had basically clogged up all my thought processes...



Ouch man, bad luck. Good that you've got it straightened out though.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 7, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Ouch man, bad luck. Good that you've got it straightened out though.



Yeah its good to be back, I need to finish up some of these shorts I have up.


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 7, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I am addblocking your creepy ass signature sir...





I'm sorry, but I gotta support those two, even when they're in such a nasty situation. 

Hopefully there'll be epic stock for them soon enough.

~~~

As for reading over old works, there may be ideas and such that I feel I would be better off with, but usually they just make me feel like I can't believe I let other people see it.

How long have you been writing for, Tyr?


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## Tyrael (Aug 7, 2008)

Wow, that's a new one, er...

My oldest documents date back to may 2006. So not as long as I coulda thought. So ignore my complaining, of course I'm bad-I need to give it a few more years at least. No effort, no outcome.

How 'bout yourself Versant?


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 7, 2008)

Heh. I took up terrible writing in the back of my schoolbook when I was in year eight I think, so 2004. But I only started writing on the computer with intent around June 2006, when I found a writing forum. So I'd say two years as well.


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## Tyrael (Aug 7, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Heh. I took up terrible writing in the back of my schoolbook when I was in year eight I think, so 2004. But I only started writing on the computer with intent around June 2006, when I found a writing forum. So I'd say two years as well.



I always used to love creative writing at school, back when I was jus' a lil' 'un. Of course they strangled it out of me. But that doc. date I quoted was my first attempts to write seriously. So I guess we're in much the same situation.


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## Pan-on (Aug 7, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> I'm sorry, but I gotta support those two, even when they're in such a nasty situation.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> I knew someone was going to have that in their sig when i read the chapter.


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## Tyrael (Aug 7, 2008)

Anonx said:


> Taurus Versant said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sorry, but I gotta support those two, even when they're in such a nasty situation.
> ...



What manga?


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 7, 2008)

Claymore.

And dammit, but I love those two. I can only hope for the best, rather than their current situation.

As for my writing, I usually just start with a plot in my head and run with it. Usually it's only a beginning, but it doesn't take long before I have a good idea where I'm going.

The story I'm gonna start after my current one is done is gonna be good but. I just wish I had a title for it >_<


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## Serp (Aug 7, 2008)

Fuck yea, last magical hurdle passed


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 7, 2008)

An achievement we should know of, Serp?


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## Serp (Aug 7, 2008)

In my magic novel (where everything is magic) I was working out mechanics, I had to split all known types of magic into 5 different categories not that easy. And then figure out 4 different/advanced  types of magic that doesn't already exist in my world and grant it to the protagonists.


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 7, 2008)

Yeah, putting feasible mechanics to magic is a pain. I understand that fully.


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## Serp (Aug 7, 2008)

Now if you don't mind i'm going to rant about it 

The five different types of Magic are.
Nature Magic: Manipulating/guiding already existing natural forces. (Weather control is a sub-type of this.)
Supplementary-control Magic: Magic regarding anything to do with using fields of magic/energy. (examples: barriers and invisibility.) 
Spiritual-mentality Magic: Magic that requires concentration and is connected to the mind. (examples: pre-cog, clairvoyance and miscellaneous physic abilities) (Illusions are a sub type to this)
Actualization Magic: This is the magic of forming something, either turning something into something else, or forming it out of pure magic.
Core magic: Core magics are the magics that may link to a certain type but is too insignificantly simple to fit into its category. Or magic that calls upon more than one type that it cannot be classified as one.  (examples: stun magic, binding magic and simple locking/opening magic, levitation etc)

Now I feel I can honestly fit any magic spell(within reason) into a category. If you can help by thinking of spell and see if they fit into any category and then tell me


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## Tyrael (Aug 8, 2008)

Not bad, you've put a heck of a lot of effort into that by the looks of it. Feels very "sciency" and genuine.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 8, 2008)

I thought about giving mechanics to magic in my story but I preferred the mindfuck route.


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## Tiger (Aug 8, 2008)

Serp said:


> Now if you don't mind i'm going to rant about it
> 
> The five different types of Magic are.
> Nature Magic: Manipulating/guiding already existing natural forces. (Weather control is a sub-type of this.)
> ...



Where would space and time magics fit in?

How about life magic? Which would be related to nature, but too complex to fit into it. Unless your argument was that life and death give off energy that is always "around us", and therefore necromancy would also be put into Nature magic...

But that sounds odd, doesn't it? In most myths, the catalyst for an age of magic was brought along by a miracle-healer. "Healed by touch" with no medicine or practice. 

Do your mechanics include the laws of alchemy? What is above as is below? Meaning, can you make something out of nothing, or do you need an equal and opposite reaction?

How many elements will your nature magic include? Just the basics: fire, wind, water, earth, etc. like Naruto? Or will it have all 12-16 elements of ancient alchemy, with salt, sulfur and mercury being keys.

If I could speed up or slow time at my will, where would I fit into your mechanics?
What if I could raise my allies' morale to post-peak levels to the point where they were mentally without fear, and willing to die at my feet?

That being said, anything that doesn't fit into your magic mechanics...just don't bother creating. If it's your world, you get to choose if something exists.

Most people just go Lord Yu's route, which has its own advantages and disadvantages. I once tried to create a world and spent over a month trying to figure out how things would "work" in that world...til I finally said, "you know what? Fuck it. It doesn't have to make logical sense. If the characters of the story think it makes sense, then so will the reader."

I need to start writing again...I just wonder how much more of a recluse I can become.


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## Serp (Aug 8, 2008)

> Where would space and time magics fit in?


In my world Space and time magics don't technically exist, in any world they are used in they are usually top tier anyways, so I am not bringing any teleportation or time into it at all.



> How about life magic? Which would be related to nature, but too complex to fit into it. Unless your argument was that life and death give off energy that is always "around us", and therefore necromancy would also be put into Nature magic...


Firstly I need your definition of life magic. And if you think about nature magics aren't as broad as others its usually the same spells used differently. And Necromancy is introduced later as a lost/ancient magic. 



> But that sounds odd, doesn't it? In most myths, the catalyst for an age of magic was brought along by a miracle-healer. "Healed by touch" with no medicine or practice.


That is true, but the age of magic in my realm come from humans learning from demons or the planet itself.


> Do your mechanics include the laws of alchemy? What is above as is below? Meaning, can you make something out of nothing, or do you need an equal and opposite reaction?


Yes it does, an equal amount of energy put into something will be expelled, hence in my story actually creating big fiery mountains of flames or shooting high level energy balls is nigh impossible due to the sheer amount of energy required (although there is a loophole). Like with actualization magic, if you have enough energy you can form something out of nothing if you do not, you have to transform something else therefore using its energy and properties to help. As this is also morphing of magical energy but also morphing of the alchemic elements. Actualization magic is actually the branch for alchemy, conjuring and transformation magics as they can be seen as very similar.



> How many elements will your nature magic include? Just the basics: fire, wind, water, earth, etc. like Naruto? Or will it have all 12-16 elements of ancient alchemy, with salt, sulfur and mercury being keys.


 My nature magic is *anything* related to the planet and biology, the magic of the planet and things on it. Other nature magics include controlling vegetation, growth, healing, making potions for other types of magic by using natural resources etc etc. The most common one that one of my main character uses is, basic manipulation although she can't actually form fire, air currents, water from thin air or create giant rock obelisks, she can guide the direction in which existing formations move. Alchemy is classed as an actualization magic.


> If I could speed up or slow time at my will, where would I fit into your mechanics?


Another magic that is there in my story but no one apart from the ancient   ones(demons) could use as it is far too broken, with PIS no one could beat a time warper. It is packed away with the likes of necromancy the other ancient magics.


> What if I could raise my allies' morale to post-peak levels to the point where they were mentally without fear, and willing to die at my feet?


 I thought this part was easily covered in the spiritually-mental magic. As it affects the mind, that would be an easy spell to use apart from the fact it would be used on 100s of people.



> That being said, anything that doesn't fit into your magic mechanics...just don't bother creating. If it's your world, you get to choose if something exists.


Well everything kinda does fit, in my mind many of the points you brought up, I thought through and I tried not to add any broken types of magic or ones that one could perform using peak human stats as magic requires mental concentration and energy transfer that some people just cant provide. But the theme of these stories are technically the impossible magics.





> Most people just go Lord Yu's route, which has its own advantages and disadvantages. I once tried to create a world and spent over a month trying to figure out how things would "work" in that world...til I finally said, "you know what? Fuck it. It doesn't have to make logical sense. If the characters of the story think it makes sense, then so will the reader."


Oh that route , ive tried saying fuck it but I have a slight OCD in that area and things have to make sense, like plot hole can drive me crazy. I have at least 3 fully functioning universes, where everything is connected makes sense and has defined explanations of how everything works. It was years of work, but the upside was now I can write new novels set in those universes using those rules at a different time or place and it would become easier for me. Its worse when an idea pops into my head, I can't leave it vague it needs to connect somehow  

I need to start writing again...I just wonder how much more of a recluse I can become.[/quote]


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## Psallo a Cappella (Aug 8, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> There are times-maybe you read another piece of writing, or maybe you sit down and read you own writing-and are reminded just how ghastly the pieces of shit that are spewed from your fingertips are. Anyone else ever find this?


 
Several times. I have cringed at the things I wrote when I was eleven and twelve. Strangely enough, compared to others my age, I was a really decent writer, but I hated it all the same. Looking back from the age I am now, I am always tempted to delete it, but never do. Makes me feel as if I had improved. Although computer crashes have lost some of my famously horrid work.


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## Tyrael (Aug 8, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I thought about giving mechanics to magic in my story but I preferred the mindfuck route.



I do an in between-make up detailed mechanics of inexplicable forces then never get round to actually explaining it in the story...



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Several times. I have cringed at the things I wrote when I was eleven and twelve. Strangely enough, compared to others my age, I was a really decent writer, but I hated it all the same. Looking back from the age I am now, I am always tempted to delete it, but never do. Makes me feel as if I had improved. Although computer crashes have lost some of my famously horrid work.



I'm against ever deleting work. Hell, as previously mentioned, a lot of my older writing is superior to my recent decedent attempts. I could see, however, how past works might appear embarrassing when viewed from a more practiced standpoint.


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## Serp (Aug 8, 2008)

Ty said:
			
		

> I do an in between-make up detailed mechanics of inexplicable forces then never get round to actually explaining it in the story...



Oh lol most the things I go crazy figuring out, I never explain it in the story, I just use it as a guide line for consistency


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## Tyrael (Aug 8, 2008)

Serp said:


> Oh lol most the things I go crazy figuring out, I never explain it in the story, I just use it as a guide line for consistency



Indeed-it kinda kills narrative when you put a large complex explanation in the middle of a story, runs the risk of seeming too planted.


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## Serp (Aug 8, 2008)

Indeed, Or it seems that you are making the characters dumb when you explain it to the readers via the method of the characters learning it. In this novel as everyone is deeply engulfed in magic, explanations don't really fit into it. I use this so I can mental order, so after ive spent hours fixing things I feel bad that it won't ever make it to the page.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 8, 2008)

Well there's always the appendix.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Aug 8, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Well there's always the appendix.


 
True. I have also seen glossaries.


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## Serp (Aug 8, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Well there's always the appendix.


True but I usually have enough stuff to fill a small book, but I would most likely write it all in a companion guide.


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## Pan-on (Aug 8, 2008)

hehe i have the one about robert jordans world, its pretty interesting.


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## Tyrael (Aug 8, 2008)

Lol, just don't try and compete with Tolkein on that account. I originally planned to have an appendix, but someone has beat to my title.


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 8, 2008)

Can't stand when people beat you to your titles. It's like you've come up with something your own, and someone else has already done so. Total pain


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## Tyrael (Aug 8, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Can't stand when people beat you to your titles. It's like you've come up with something your own, and someone else has already done so. Total pain



Especially since this is pretty intrinsic to the story itself, it's particularly annoying. Ah well, such things happen eh? What titles you had snaffled from your fingertips?


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 8, 2008)

Demonium was apparently a low grade horror movie.

First Blood was a more popular movie, which sucks, because it's the title of the first book in the EDOSTAR series, which is going to be my absolute best.


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## Serp (Aug 8, 2008)

Would you believe it if I told you, I had tomb of the dragon emperor snatched from right before me.


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 8, 2008)

Not fun, is it?


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## Pan-on (Aug 8, 2008)

Serp said:


> Would you believe it if I told you, I had tomb of the dragon emperor snatched from right before me.



lol i wish that had stolen your script too, it couldnt have failed to be better.


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## Serp (Aug 8, 2008)

No just the name, my script still in planning is miles better. And mine was actually called "The Dragon emperors tomb" but I changed to Phoenix Lord afterwards


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## Lord Yu (Aug 8, 2008)

I've really only changed my story's name because I didn't like it. I have never bothered to look up the name I decided on.


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## Pan-on (Aug 8, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I've really only changed my story's name because I didn't like it. I have never bothered to look up the name I decided on.



think of how disappointed you will be when LORD OF THE RINGS turns out to be take :amazed.

When i found out someone had already used "the holy bible" i had to reshape my entire plan.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 8, 2008)

I once named a country Dornes and then I read A Song of Ice and Fire. Then I stopped being lazy with naming. But hey my naming scheme is throwing out words on a phonetic trail and it was bound to happen sometime. I already had two other countries ending in "nes" so meh call it a sign.


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 8, 2008)

Yeah, the phonetic trail tends to overlap here and there.

I keep a list of all the names I create now, to make sure I don't overdo it.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 8, 2008)

I keep a list of names as well but alot of times I find myself making things up on the spot. Pulling them from my soul and whatnot.


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 8, 2008)

Oh, I make up all my names on the spot, I just add them to my list. It helps me see the way I arrange letters.


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## Pan-on (Aug 8, 2008)

im terrible with names, im incredibly picky and i hate using the names of people I know.


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 8, 2008)

What I hate is when a name sticks that I don't want to.

For example, one of the two main characters from my new story will be named Taurus. I was trying to find another name, and my brain was all "nope, you're using Taurus." and I was all ""

True story.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 8, 2008)

I didn't really want to keep the name Michelle for one of my main characters as it was really a temporary name. But it stuck like industrial glue. But well I got better at naming.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 8, 2008)

I have just started playing in the forum RP thinking it will help my skills as a writer, its pretty interesting.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 8, 2008)

I did that once. I screwed up a little but it was an interesting experience.


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 8, 2008)

I actively enjoy Roleplaying. It helps with your plot on the fly skills. You gotta work with other people while aiming for something everyone can enjoy. It's a great thing. I believe I've improved my writing from roleplaying.


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## Serp (Aug 8, 2008)

It will, I RP on a separate site. (One of the only active ones, that is in the genre that I like, its not too small, and not too big but most of the members interact) 
It helps my skills as a writer in a few ways, one its a fun way to pass time, it prompts me to try and out do the other people.


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## Tyrael (Aug 9, 2008)

I have to say, I am somewhat tempted to give that same one a go CTK.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Aug 9, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Can't stand when people beat you to your titles. It's like you've come up with something your own, and someone else has already done so. Total pain


 
Hm, I rarely have that problem. But then, I have a fondness for obscure words with common definitions and love to use them. Or perhaps I just do not research well enough and decide to remain blissfully unaware of similiar titles.

"Amaranthine" is my favorite. 

I just love making up titles / chapter titles.


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## RaiRyuu (Aug 9, 2008)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> "Amaranthine" is my favorite.



Nice...By amaranthine do you mean the color or the ajective originating from the plant?

Yo...Been lurking here for a couple of months and this thread's pretty interesting...Reading some posts was helpful with my "writings" if you can call them that (I'm pretty crappy)...I finally had some time so I decided to post here...


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## Serp (Aug 9, 2008)

I like my titles to have a double meaning or seem to have no real meaning but foreshadow or reflect a theme.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 9, 2008)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Hm, I rarely have that problem. But then, I have a fondness for obscure words with common definitions and love to use them. Or perhaps I just do not research well enough and decide to remain blissfully unaware of similiar titles.
> 
> "Amaranthine" is my favorite.
> 
> I just love making up titles / chapter titles.



Usually my titles aren't all that creative, some of the time they are but even then it seems that I get beat to them. Its an odd feeling when you pick weird subject matter or a title and then see it in a movie or video game a year later.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Aug 9, 2008)

RaiRyuu said:


> Nice...By amaranthine do you mean the color or the ajective originating from the plant?
> 
> Yo...Been lurking here for a couple of months and this thread's pretty interesting...Reading some posts was helpful with my "writings" if you can call them that (I'm pretty crappy)...I finally had some time so I decided to post here...





> am?a?ran?thine      /ˌ?məˈr?nθɪn, -θaɪn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[am-_uh_-*ran*-thin, -thahyn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
> ?adjective 1.of or like the amaranth. 2.unfading; everlasting: a woman of amaranthine loveliness. 3.of purplish-red color.


 
Definition #2.

Completely agree with you, Serp. 

So, a question:  Do you usually create a title before you write the chapter / story, or after? Or during? Do you change it often, or find one and stick with it?


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## Lord Yu (Aug 9, 2008)

But Amaranth the peddler waxes poetic to Mnemosyne
His unmasked eyes deliver lunacy
It is a countless hour stealing further into landscapes seldom drawn
Even in a demon's troubled head


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## Serp (Aug 9, 2008)

As I have a basic story board plan of my writing in my head, I know what the chapter will focus on, so I name the chapter/Story based on that and then I fully flesh out the story/chapter under that name :S Its weird I know. 

And I usually stick with a name, if I change it its very minor.


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## RaiRyuu (Aug 9, 2008)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Definition #2.
> So, a question:  Do you usually create a title before you write the chapter / story, or after? Or during? Do you change it often, or find one and stick with it?



That's what I thought...I found it was pretty attractive for a title.

I don't know if it's unusual, but personally, I come up with a title for a chapter after having written it and usually stick with it. For the whole story I usually don't have a title when I start but it sort of comes to me during the writing process and I often change it a few times since mostly the first titles for the strory are pretty bad.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 9, 2008)

For me chapter titles are not planned. I name them for where I think they'll go.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Aug 9, 2008)

RaiRyuu said:


> That's what I thought...I found it was pretty attractive for a title.
> 
> I don't know if it's unusual, but personally, I come up with a title for a chapter after having written it and usually stick with it. For the whole story I usually don't have a title when I start but it sort of comes to me during the writing process and I often change it a few times since mostly the first titles for the strory are pretty bad.


 
It's such an intriguing word. 

Rarely do I have any idea of what I want the chapter to be called without getting at least half-way through it. Preferably, I like to write it completely and then read it and develop a sort of concept, idea, or mood about it; an impression, so to speak. I try to see it as my audience will and then form something that, while not obvious, will be relatable assuming the reader is somewhat astute. I dislike being bound by the title, because should a creative liberty tug at my curiosity, I feel like I can't take the opportunity because it pushes the limit of the title and isn't as all-encompassing as I want it to be.


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## RaiRyuu (Aug 9, 2008)

It's pretty much the same for me; I even re-read the chapter a couple of times to get the title just right. Still, I sometimes wonder whether the title is too mysterious or too revealing thus becoming less appealing to readers. I agree with what you said about not being bound by the title because I hate being restrained or limited when writing since you never know when you'll get an idea beyond the limit.

A problem that I encounter frequently is creating a title for the whole story (titles for chaps aren't so hard for me) because I find it difficult to have a title that should speak for the story especially since mostly my writings are drenched in mystery and I can't be too revealing.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 9, 2008)

For a chapter title I usually just take something significant from the chapter itself.


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## Luckyday (Aug 9, 2008)

I just have sudden idea for a character (and if possible a story). My character have the powers of invisibility and shapeshifting, however he/she can only appear when he/she is in a different disguise.


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## Tyrael (Aug 9, 2008)

For chapters I tend to be ridiculously innovative. Sometimes I even write 1 as I.

Honestly though, I've never bothered naming my stories or chapters as of yet-except the one that was stolen, only because the title fit like a glove.



Luckyday said:


> I just have sudden idea for a character (and if possible a story). My character have the powers of invisibility and shapeshifting, however he/she can only appear when he/she is in a different disguise.



Wait-the person can only been seen when they are not in their current form, but each of their forms, whilst they occupy it, is the current form therefore the person is perpetually invisible? Wut?


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## Serp (Aug 9, 2008)

I think his person has lost his true form.


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## Luckyday (Aug 9, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> For chapters I tend to be ridiculously innovative. Sometimes I even write 1 as I.
> 
> Honestly though, I've never bothered naming my stories or chapters as of yet-except the one that was stolen, only because the title fit like a glove.
> 
> ...



I mean when the person is no longer in invisible mode and have a different apperance every time he becomes uninvisible.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Aug 10, 2008)

RaiRyuu said:


> A problem that I encounter frequently is creating a title for the whole story (titles for chaps aren't so hard for me) because I find it difficult to have a title that should speak for the story especially since mostly my writings are drenched in mystery and I can't be too revealing.


 
Yes, I have titled stories only to finish writing them and realize that it has little to nothing to do with it in the end. Usually because I'll begin with a basic flow of plot and then twist in new subplots, symbolisms, and other things later that deter my train of thought from the original plot; thus, it makes the title I created weeks before obselete.


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## Tyrael (Aug 10, 2008)

Luckyday said:


> I mean when the person is no longer in invisible mode and have a different apperance every time he becomes uninvisible.



Ah, that has potential to be interesting. But try to use the word visible rather than uninvisable.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 10, 2008)

Well, it seems I now have two invented languages.


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## Serp (Aug 10, 2008)

Really? care to share?


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## Lord Yu (Aug 10, 2008)

First the void language, which I can't figure out yet. Second is the language of the Nazrat elementals, which seems somewhat Germanic maybe a tad Scandinavian, I'm not really sure. Some words in the elemental language sound slightly German but the arrangement of words and concepts are different.


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## Serp (Aug 10, 2008)

Is it a complete language and fully translatable? Either way creating a new language is a great achievement and you have done two of them.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 10, 2008)

Probably, the words come out as I feel them. I found the first sentence of the Elemental language hard to translate. As I said the word order is different from English. The first void language words I wrote have no proper equivalent. The void language won't get much attention. It has too many abstract concepts that don't translate.


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## Serp (Aug 10, 2008)

Taster


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## Lord Yu (Aug 10, 2008)

What?....................


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## Serp (Aug 10, 2008)

If it uses latin characters would you mind writing down a sentence?


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## Lord Yu (Aug 10, 2008)

Nazrat Iksalia D'un Uek Heinem vas Ualek Hau.


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## Serp (Aug 10, 2008)

And now for its translation


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## Lord Yu (Aug 10, 2008)

The Blood of Our Motherland runs through my veins and keeps me safe.


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## Serp (Aug 10, 2008)

@Yu +reps, and when ever you feel confident enough to show your work around, I have to read some of it. Although that day will most likely never come.


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## RaiRyuu (Aug 10, 2008)

*Lord Yu:* Nice stuff...Would you mind explaining what the sentence structure is? If it's not too troublesome that is...


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## Lord Yu (Aug 10, 2008)

Still trying to figure that out.But I know its different than English, for example Nazrat means Motherland.(Or land depending on the dialect)


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## Tyrael (Aug 10, 2008)

That's pretty crazy Yu-one of the reason Tolkein was considered a genius was his ability to create a language with fully functioning historical and biological consideration. I take my hat off to you, if I had one


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## Pan-on (Aug 10, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> That's pretty crazy Yu-one of the reason Tolkein was considered a genius was his ability to create a language with fully functioning historical and biological consideration. I take my hat off to you, if I had one



My flatmate last year told me Tolkien was a linguist and he wrote LoTR as an excuse to create and elvish language, not totally sure about the accuracy of that but its interesting if true.


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## Tyrael (Aug 10, 2008)

Anonx said:


> My flatmate last year told me Tolkien was a linguist and he wrote LoTR as an excuse to create and elvish language, not totally sure about the accuracy of that but its interesting if true.



I heard it was because the publishers wanted a sequel for the hobbit. It was expected to make a small loss.

Heh...


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## Serp (Aug 10, 2008)

I actually half created a language but decided to stop as I realised it didn't really have a place in any of my novels. :/


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## Psallo a Cappella (Aug 10, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Nazrat Iksalia D'un Uek Heinem vas Ualek Hau.


 
Interesting. Do you have any inkling if the sentence structure is closer to English, or to another language that perhaps changes the order of nouns / verbs / et cetera?


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## Lord Yu (Aug 10, 2008)

Not quite yet.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 11, 2008)

To create my language, I think I'll start with phrases and break them down into words. My language is really sounding Slavic. Which is quite strange since I don't know any slavic languages very well.


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## RockGuitarist (Aug 11, 2008)

I'm writing a martial arts novel, I also inted to start writing a novel based in space, inspired by Outlaw Star and Neon Genesis Evangelion.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Aug 11, 2008)

Oh, I loved NGE!


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## Serp (Aug 11, 2008)

Im an Eva-tard Hence in the flashfic thread it was the focus of my Koan


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## Tyrael (Aug 11, 2008)

Echoes above sentiment.

Evangelion screws with my mind. Awesome.


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## RockGuitarist (Aug 11, 2008)

Yeah, it'll have robot fights, space ship fights, encounters with space pirates, hot and horny amazonian chicks. I'll fill you people on the plot when I write it up.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 12, 2008)

I like Evangelion as well. I hope to achieve the same mindfuck feeling in my story telling.


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## RaiRyuu (Aug 12, 2008)

Question; I think most of you guys have already written some variant of an action scene (fight, shooting, chase, war etc...) I was wondering how you went about; do you just write in general what happens or go into details?


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## neko-sennin (Aug 12, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> ZETSUBOUSHITA!



Whoo-hoo! Another Zetsubou fan! 



EvanNJames said:


> I agree. I have three, and it's difficult for me not to spend all my time expanding their backgrounds, and how their lives fall between a world of grey, not black or white.


 
I think it's a little simpler than that. As an old friend once taught me, on one in this world really thinks they're "evil" as such. People can come up with some surprising justifications and/or dismissals of their actions.



EvanNJames said:


> The villain shouldn't be complex, but a simple drive that determines what they do, not who they are.


 
That's where my lexicon tends to differentiate between a "villain" and an "antagonist". The former is usually defined as a character whose motives and significance to the protagonist are usually simple, shallow, and often situational. Whereas the latter may not be as diametrically opposed to the protagonist-- in fact, may even be similar, or at least no more or less wicked than the main character, but perhaps in pursuit of contradictory goals. Maybe even the kind of people who might have been friends if they met under other circumstances, or could potentially become allies later if they don't take their conflicts too personally.



EvanNJames said:


> I prefer that my antagonist mirror the protagonist, and in that way they share a bond that ties them together in within the same tale. That's what develops the conflict and also resolves it in the end.



In fact, the level of development often affects whether the outcome is one-sided, two-sided, or even multi-faceted. 



EvanNJames said:


> I can't stop writing about the antagonist because it gives more depth to the story. Yet, I believe that a hero should be troubled, and just as developed and conflicted.



This is where I had to spend time taking a good long look at myself, as I have a tendency to make my characters too idealized if I'm not careful, and I've found that the more honest I can be with myself about my own shortcomings, the more three-dimensionally I can portray the characters in my stories.



Anonx said:


> Well since you asked
> 
> anyone got any advice about dialogue? I am writing something at the moment and I realised I have been avoiding dialogue recently because I dont seem to be very good at it, specifically in adding humour to it, everything seems cheesy to me and I don't like it.



Been there, done that. A lot of the humor in my oldest writings sounds really forced and contrived, very cartoonish, and not in a good way. The best advice I can give is to find sources of dialogue-- friends, books, even more conversationally varied and literate TV or movies-- whose flow and feel you enjoy, and pay attention to its mechanics and patterns, deconstruct what makes it tick. The more you can pick up on the subtleties of human communication, the more easily it will flow in your own work.



Batman said:


> Don't write. Record. What I mean is, get to know your characters well enough so that you're not speaking for them. Get them to come to life and write down what they say. I'm finally able to just sit back and let them loose in a scene. Sometimes they can be asshats, but a lot of times they surprise me.



That's what happened between the original and later versions of Tradewinds, the probably made the biggest difference, even more so than improving my writing skills in between. Simply getting to know the characters better, both major and minor. You'll know you're where you need to be with your characters when you can throw random conversation at them, and they will readily speak for themselves.



Batman said:


> Hopefully you can correct it all in the rewrites.



That's what I usually do. Once a conversation in a story picks up steam, I just let the characters run with it, and if there are important plot or character points that get glossed over, and if I decide that they are important enough at that point, I try to work them in later, as unobtrusively as I can without disrupting the existing flow of the conversation. Sometimes the characters themselves will remind me of important details I hadn't even thought of all by themselves.



graysocks said:


> On a side note, do you guys write on paper or word processor? Maybe even old school typewriter?  I can't handle my handwriting so it's on here, and that's where most of my distractions come.



I've probably mentioned this before at some point, but I usually write the first draft in a composition notebook. (Because I keep notes in a series of notepads, I'm able to strike a decent balance between writing speed and legibility, as I may have to refer to something months or even years later, when it is no longer fresh in my mind, and I will have to be able to tell what the hell I was rambling about back then.) I usually do subsequent drafts in MS Word, as this allows me total freedom to rewrite the whole thing from scratch when it comes to stuff in the first draft that doesn't work. Part of this originated because I went for over two years without any consistent computer access (at least enough for writing, at any rate), as well as as a way to overcome my own editorial laziness.



Tyrael said:


> What formatting a'body use? (Without that info how many pages makes no sense).
> 
> Myself-size 10,new roman, single spacing.
> 
> About 800 ish words a page.



I go for Arial 11 pt for readability, and I keep the background black and the text white to reduce eye-strain. Because I use the widest margins my printer will let me get away with, to cut down on paper, this averages out to about 800-900 words per page. My chapters can run anywhere from a few hundred words, to 2000 or 3000.



Taurus Versant said:


> Man, I wish I could write that much.
> 
> I write in chapters, which are usually between 4 and 7 pages.



Sadly, I'm hit-n-miss. If I'm inspired, I can write several hundred words in one session, other times, I may only get a couple paragraphs. 2005 was a terrible year for my writing-- my schedule often left me so exhausted, I would come home, scribble a couple sentences... and wake up in my chair at 3 am.  That sucked, and the Knight Library sessions were few and far between that year; sadly, about the only times I got anything accomplished.



Tyrael said:


> Lol, I tend to find that BS is more useful with dialogue, that said I try to keep my style from being waffle. I could write padding is easy and so is under-writing: pity the balance is so damn hard.



Ah, the Balance. One of the hardest tricks of the trade, yet if you pull it off, it makes such a huge difference...



Anonx said:


> im wondering, how much does everyone plan their characters and plot before they start writing, i am doing that right now with what I am writing rather than trying to just make it up as i got along with a vague idea of where im going like i usually do.



I usually start with a basic premise, and see where it goes from there. Anymore, I tend to work the kinks out of plot, setting and character issues in subsequent drafts.



Anonx said:


> I am also wondering about what to do, I am beginning to think my original idea is a little too ambitious for me right now and am considering writing something a little more straight forward instead but I am not sure if it will be as interesting in the end.



It's hard to say. In my case, I was extremely ambitious, and a little too arrogant for my own good when I first started writing. Especially with Tradewinds, believing that the "concept" could transcend any shortcomings on my end as the author, and I was eventually humbled by a cascading cycle of disappointment and frustration. Many times in those dark days, my friend, Matt-sama, God of Everything Else, recommended I "do something different" for a while, and for a long time I stubbornly refused until I reached a point where I began to question whether or not I had any business _being_ a writer, and it was writing the Book of Hondo that got me out of my funk. Got me to quit taking myself so seriously, and start taking the writing seriously, and it's an important principle I've taken to heart ever since.

On the other hand, I've always believed that the journey is the destination, and, like the epic heroes some of us write about, you may discover the skills, insight, and the vision you need in the course of working on it. A true student of life can turn any ordeal into training. Doing your most compelling visions justice is never easy, but in the end it's up to you to decide if you're up to the challenge yet. I know I wasn't when I first started, and there are times when I'm still quite sure I'm not, but I knew I never would be if I didn't start somewhere.


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## Pan-on (Aug 12, 2008)

that was a hell of a response, thats commitment. Well done.


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## Tyrael (Aug 12, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> It's hard to say. In my case, I was extremely ambitious, and a little too arrogant for my own good when I first started writing. Especially with Tradewinds, believing that the "concept" could transcend any shortcomings on my end as the author, and I was eventually humbled by a cascading cycle of disappointment and frustration. Many times in those dark days, my friend, Matt-sama, God of Everything Else, recommended I "do something different" for a while, and for a long time I stubbornly refused until I reached a point where I began to question whether or not I had any business _being_ a writer, and it was writing the Book of Hondo that got me out of my funk. Got me to quit taking myself so seriously, and start taking the writing seriously, and it's an important principle I've taken to heart ever since.
> 
> On the other hand, I've always believed that the journey is the destination, and, like the epic heroes some of us write about, you may discover the skills, insight, and the vision you need in the course of working on it. A true student of life can turn any ordeal into training. Doing your most compelling visions justice is never easy, but in the end it's up to you to decide if you're up to the challenge yet. I know I wasn't when I first started, and there are times when I'm still quite sure I'm not, but I knew I never would be if I didn't start somewhere.



Agreed completely, you have to believe in your concepts, but not think that it means you need not pay too much time to anything else.

And I'll echo anon's awe at that post.


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## RockGuitarist (Aug 12, 2008)

The universe is in trouble, yet again! A fissure that has the potential to rip the universe into shreds is slowly approaching, and the Universal Government only have very few options. Professor James Marshall Hendrix of the Galactic University of Science is the main character, a brilliant mind who is known to go overboard when it comes to lecturing, scientific theory, and amongst other things, his stubborn beliefs that there is always a logical explantaion for everything. His assistant, Mitch Mitchell, who takes every oppurtune moment to fondle every chick in sight, show off his skills as a guitarist, and as a genius mechanic.


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## Serp (Aug 12, 2008)

Thats a mighty fine post you got there.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 12, 2008)

RockGuitarist said:


> The universe is in trouble, yet again! A fissure that has the potential to rip the universe into shreds is slowly approaching, and the Universal Government only have very few options. Professor James Marshall Hendrix of the Galactic University of Science is the main character, a brilliant mind who is known to go overboard when it comes to lecturing, scientific theory, and amongst other things, his stubborn beliefs that there is always a logical explantaion for everything. His assistant, Mitch Mitchell, who takes every oppurtune moment to fondle every chick in sight, show off his skills as a guitarist, and as a genius mechanic.



Epic.


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## RockGuitarist (Aug 12, 2008)

I'd like to think so.


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## neko-sennin (Aug 12, 2008)

To Tyrael, DTK, anyone else at FP:

Any clue why the admins, in their infinite retardedness, once again made simple features more complicated than they need to be? While I'm sure _somebody_ cares about the ratio of US to Aussie traffic browsing stories, is there some reason why they needed to throw the baby out with the bath water? WTF was so wrong about being able to check my chapter stats without opening extra windows and crap? Every time I think they've run out of ways to make my "FP experience" any more user-unfriendly or annoying, they prove me wrong...



Anonx said:


> that was a hell of a response, thats commitment. Well done.



Uh, thanks.  Didn't mean to write a book there, just been rather busy this month. Good to see things are picking up again.



RockGuitarist said:


> The universe is in trouble, yet again! A fissure that has the potential to rip the universe into shreds is slowly approaching, and the Universal Government only have very few options. Professor James Marshall Hendrix of the Galactic University of Science is the main character, a brilliant mind who is known to go overboard when it comes to lecturing, scientific theory, and amongst other things, his stubborn beliefs that there is always a logical explanation for everything. His assistant, Mitch Mitchell, who takes every opportune moment to fondle every chick in sight, show off his skills as a guitarist, and as a genius mechanic.



Sounds like you have a tale to tell.



RaiRyuu said:


> Question; I think most of you guys have already written some variant of an action scene (fight, shooting, chase, war etc...) I was wondering how you went about; do you just write in general what happens or go into details?



In my case, I've written them all at some point-- fights, chases, shootouts, battles-- and if there's one thing I've learned, it's that it's not as easy as it looks. My older action scenes would probably have made excellent screenplay choreography-- the moves, the timing, the sequences would have been exciting to watch on the screen-- but were boring and slow to slog through in written form. As a result, I ended up scaling back on the detailed choreography and focused on the pivotal moments, the turning points, in an action sequence, in order to lighten it up and pick up the pace, rather than have a simple fist-fight drag out into the 3-page mini-epic that all of my betas unanimously glossed over. Because an action scene should be anything but slow to read.



Anonx said:


> I tend to find history in novels more interesting when you are given small pieces of informations gradually rather then large chunks which some writers *coughgoodkindcough* tend to use. its nice when there is a sense of mystery about the past rather than knowing everything.



I'll second that. Years of editing and rewrites have taught me that it is better to weave small chunks of information into the narrative, to let the read digest it at a more casual pace, and reveal things on a need-to-know basis, as they start to become relevant to the plot, setting, or characters' backgrounds.


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## RockGuitarist (Aug 12, 2008)

It'll be difficult, but I may be able to find a way to mix in everything I want without making it seem too much like Neon Genesis Evangelion or Outlaw Star.


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## RaiRyuu (Aug 12, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> In my case, I've written them all at some point-- fights, chases, shootouts, battles-- and if there's one thing I've learned, it's that it's not as easy as it looks. My older action scenes would probably have made excellent screenplay choreography-- the moves, the timing, the sequences would have been exciting to watch on the screen-- but were boring and slow to slog through in written form. As a result, I ended up scaling back on the detailed choreography and focused on the pivotal moments, the turning points, in an action sequence, in order to lighten it up and pick up the pace, rather than have a simple fist-fight drag out into the 3-page mini-epic that all of my betas unanimously glossed over. Because an action scene should be anything but slow to read.



Thanks for the explanation; I was wondering about that because I too write extremely detailed action scenes (like every single breath is recorded) but even when I myself read them again, I found it was pretty boring because it was too slow/long and not as exciting as it's meant to be (if it were a movie, they would've been great though ) So I was just asking to make sure it wasn't just me and because I can't really figure out how brief I have to be because it shouldn't seem too bland...


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## Psallo a Cappella (Aug 12, 2008)

RaiRyuu said:


> Question; I think most of you guys have already written some variant of an action scene (fight, shooting, chase, war etc...) I was wondering how you went about; do you just write in general what happens or go into details?


 
Hm, I would think with these scenes it would be more attention-catching to alternate and weave in detail that is important to the audience; namely, whatever details will evoke or explain the emotion expressed within the text. Fight scenes, or any similiar action scenes I think are better with a bit more detail because it helps one envision what it looks like; for someone who is disconnected or unfamiliar with such scenes [ esp. war, hand-to-hand combat, car chase ], they can "see" what it looks like. Filling in the details that a TV show or a movie could capture in a few seconds; that takes many words. Personally, I /like/ hearing exactly what the snap of a bone sounds like, wrenching the air; I /love/ reading a description of how warm the blood that pours is. As with anything, any writing style, it is a preference to which some adhere to graphic detail and some do not.




> Any clue why the admins, in their infinite retardedness, once again made simple features more complicated than they need to be? While I'm sure _somebody_ cares about the ratio of US to Aussie traffic browsing stories, is there some reason why they needed to throw the baby out with the bath water? WTF was so wrong about being able to check my chapter stats without opening extra windows and crap? Every time I think they've run out of ways to make my "FP experience" any more user-unfriendly or annoying, they prove me wrong...


 
Thankfully I am not the only one irritated by it. First noticed it on Fanfiction.net and then I checked Fictionpress and sure enough, they had added it there, too. The extra window feature is annoying because I'm accustomed to tabs. I enjoy the regular "Stats" page. =/


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## Tyrael (Aug 12, 2008)

Start off detailed and then pull back is the traditional one with fight scenes from my experience.

And for the FP stuff: I have actually forgotten I have one. I've pretty much stopped posting anything of mine, I'm gonna just try and finish a book with no feedback or posting it or anything. Just try and get to the end of the damn thing.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 12, 2008)

For me action scenes are only written in detail where they have to be, otherwise I think the reader gets bored because the action is too dissected and slow paced. 



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Thankfully I am not the only one irritated by it. First noticed it on Fanfiction.net and then I checked Fictionpress and sure enough, they had added it there, too. The extra window feature is annoying because I'm accustomed to tabs. I enjoy the regular "Stats" page. =/



Have you tried middle clicking to open it in a tab?


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## Psallo a Cappella (Aug 12, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Have you tried middle clicking to open it in a tab?


 
What do you mean?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 12, 2008)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> What do you mean?



Well, when you middle click on any link (this means clicking with the scroll wheel) it opens something in a new tab if it can be done that way. 

Or you can adjust firefox to open EVERYTHING in tabs...the only things that wont are certain flash objects and a few sites.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Aug 12, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well, when you middle click on any link (this means clicking with the scroll wheel) it opens something in a new tab if it can be done that way.
> 
> Or you can adjust firefox to open EVERYTHING in tabs...the only things that wont are certain flash objects and a few sites.


 
I have a laptop, love; I don't have a mouse.


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## Serp (Aug 12, 2008)

Click the link with both the left and right tab at the same time, like pressing down in the crease to open the new tab.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Aug 12, 2008)

Serp said:


> Click the link with both the left and right tab at the same time, like pressing down in the crease to open the new tab.


 
That worked; thank you, Serp!


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 12, 2008)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> That worked; thank you, Serp!



I was going to suggest that, clicking both at once is the same as middle clicking on a mouse. Only problem is make sure you actually do them at the same time.


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## neko-sennin (Aug 13, 2008)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Thankfully I am not the only one irritated by it. First noticed it on Fanfiction.net and then I checked Fictionpress and sure enough, they had added it there, too. The extra window feature is annoying because I'm accustomed to tabs. I enjoy the regular "Stats" page. =/



Tell me about it. They managed to rub me wrong right from the start.


*Spoiler*: _WARNING! RANT ALERT!_ 



Three days from joining to posting? If they were a message board, they'd be a ghost town with that attitude; in three days, I could easily find, join, and start posting to other boards that are serious about having members. Constantly accusing me of being a bot (hint to FP staff: bots don't write novels, and never will), and questioning my humanity at every turn, story after story. Or, on the subject of story after story, constantly harassing me about the Terms of Use, no matter how many goddam times I check the little box that says I read them. And if I _hadn't_ read them the first time, what possessed them to think I would be any more likely to _this_ time? At least if they updated the Terms, I could see a reminder, but the last time the Terms were updates was THREE (3) YEARS BEFORE I EVEN JOINED! And now, on top of having scripts built in that circumvent and interfere with standard browser functions, they've even robbed the stats section of its former simplicity...






Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I was going to suggest that, clicking both at once is the same as middle clicking on a mouse. Only problem is make sure you actually do them at the same time.



Sounds troublesome. I just don't get why I can't open it in the _same_ damn window/tab?  (Unless you customized it to) Does NF open a new tab every time you click on a thread? It's too cluttered and just needs a simple option to open it in the same tab like all the other options on the menu.

It just pisses me off, the anal-retentive degree their programmers go to just to restrict and circumvent user options and standard browser protocols... To be honest, since no one's really reading my stuff there, about the only reason I bother is the date stamp on my work, that is to say, strictly for copyright (read: creative control) purposes now that I'm placing more of my work in cyberspace.



RaiRyuu said:


> Thanks for the explanation; I was wondering about that because I too write extremely detailed action scenes (like every single breath is recorded) but even when I myself read them again, I found it was pretty boring because it was too slow/long and not as exciting as it's meant to be (if it were a movie, they would've been great though ) So I was just asking to make sure it wasn't just me and because I can't really figure out how brief I have to be because it shouldn't seem too bland...



Yeah, it's a very genre-/style-specific balance that can take a while to iron out, even within the same book or story. I went to some extremes before finding my balance, but I would recommend Tyrael's approach of seeing how much you can whittle away from it without losing the basic sense of the scene. While a reader needs some raw details to work with, carefully crafted vagueness in less critical aspects can also engage a reader's imagination. With the right set of essential details, a reader's imagination can fill in a lot of blanks that would take entire sentences and paragraphs to spell out.

Ordinarily, a picture is worth a thousand words, but the trick to thrift, to a lean, mean text that still gets the job done, is figuring out the balance of how much detail is critical to your vision, and how much can be left to the reader's imagination.



Lord Yu said:


> ^Brother! I too wanted to make games. I turned to novel writing because the story kept getting thicker and its not as easy to get into the scenario writing side of gaming. The gaming schools are all programming classes.



lol, same here. Except I also used to design levels, weapons, environments... it's a pity I never had the programming skills to even begin constructing my ideas. In the rush to get competent programmers, it's probably easy for a lot of outfits to overlook the scenario angle, which can be risky the more a particular game/genre revolves around creating compelling characters and spinning a good yarn.



Tyrael said:


> Doing writing because it's the easier choice? That's an odd concept, but you're probably right. Although I bet it's closer to doing screenplays.



I imagine it does, at that. Once upon a time, I wrote a couple chapter scripts for a friend of a friend who was making a comic book. I lost track of him, so sadly, I don't know what came of the project, but I did do a lot of research into screenplay and script-writing before I started, including an entire book about graphic media scripts, and let me tell you, there is both an art and a science to it. Especially the visualization, it's much easier if you're used to storyboards, because that's basically what it works like.



Anonx said:


> There's a part of me that thinks i want to write because its the harder choice, i have a tendancy to do things the hard way for some reason.



Join the club. Though I also remember somewhere, some vague remark by an unnamed soldier, that others kept calling him brave, when he was really just more afraid of something else. Or it may just be that it lies more in line with the scope of your talents or passions.



Tyrael said:


> Heh, therein lies the problem: I, personally, do not believe I am improving. Hell, if anything, my writing is getting worse.
> 
> Perhaps uniquely by the sound of it, I quite enjoying looking over my old work.It always seems better than my recent stuff.



Well, practically everything I wrote from about '97 to '99 is living proof of what my old sensei told me, an old golfing analogy about how practicing incorrectly can actually cause you to get _worse_ at something. Of course, there are times when I get all nostalgic, and start flipping through my old high-school era works... and quickly realize that it was not so much the writings themselves as it was my old visions of them that I was in love with.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 13, 2008)

All that I have been writing as of late is the stuff in the forum RP, which is really nice and good but I need to do some work on something that's an actual story. But this does help me think on my feet and the only thing different about it is there is no work limit except for the word limit the forums has. I think I did like a three page post the other day.

And I even kind of wrote myself into a corner because I had my characters fighting a creature that they could never have beaten so I had to think of a way they could accidentally beat it.


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## Serp (Aug 13, 2008)

Your gonna either have to add Dues ex machina 
Or you could allow them to accidentally exploit an untold weakness and the go back in the story and foreshadow said weakness.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 13, 2008)

Serp said:


> Your gonna either have to add Dues ex machina
> Or you could allow them to accidentally exploit an untold weakness and the go back in the story and foreshadow said weakness.



Nope, one of them tripped and the thing impaled itself on her spear because it was distracted by someone shooting at it. I really couldn't have done it any other way. But the whole thing I am going for is the girls are going to get more rugged and battle hardened as the RP progresses.


----------



## Pan-on (Aug 13, 2008)

give the monster a really funny weakness. Like he dies when he is shown something purple. Nobody will be expecting that.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 13, 2008)

Anonx said:


> give the monster a really funny weakness. Like he dies when he is shown something purple. Nobody will be expecting that.



Well these are Final Fantasy enemies...like the Behemoth is what I was fighting. A completely beatable creature (I was tearing them up on the Thunder Plains in FFX) but for two level one characters it would be a feat.


----------



## Serp (Aug 13, 2008)

CTK said:
			
		

> Nope, one of them tripped and the thing impaled itself on her spear because it was distracted by someone shooting at it. I really couldn't have done it any other way. But the whole thing I am going for is the girls are going to get more rugged and battle hardened as the RP progresses.


 That is justifiable, but still a bit dipping into "dues ex machina".



			
				Anox said:
			
		

> give the monster a really funny weakness. Like he dies when he is shown something purple. Nobody will be expecting that.


That is pure "deus ex machina" 

But there really is not any other way to level up chars unless they fight  at increasing difficulties. Which could take up alot of pages to write and gets very boring.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 13, 2008)

Serp said:


> That is justifiable, but still a bit dipping into "dues ex machina".
> 
> 
> That is pure "deus ex machina"
> ...



Funny I wrote a story named Ex Deus....

But I thought about having some random item that the characters found earlier be made to kill the creature...thats a little too Deus ex Machina, I don't like too much depending on random plot events from earlier to explain things...

I think people write themselves into corners because the plot is good...but they often get out in a way that's half-assed.


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## Tyrael (Aug 13, 2008)

Depends if we're using the technical meaning of Deus Ex Machina-anyway I wrote a reverse literal Deus Ex Machina into the FF for my own pretentious amusement.

And Iain Banks is talking at Edin. book festival and it's sold out.


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## Serp (Aug 13, 2008)

No the random item is "Chekhovs Gun" and that is very much justifiable if done well its very good and can help connect the plot along. By writing one thing into the plot at an earlier time with no significance, but to only bring it up how ever later as focus to the plot. I personally like it if it is done well cos I'm like "Omg it was the ring " or some sort of shit.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 13, 2008)

Serp said:


> No the random item is "Chekhovs Gun" and that is very much justifiable if done well its very good and can help connect the plot along. By writing one thing into the plot at an earlier time with no significance, but to only bring it up how ever later as focus to the plot. I personally like it if it is done well cos I'm like "Omg it was the ring " or some sort of shit.



Never heard that phrase...

I have actually used the phrase  as it refers to characters in stories. I do like to learn this little literary terms.


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## Serp (Aug 13, 2008)

Here  The site has alot of terms and devices used in films, games and movies.


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## RaiRyuu (Aug 13, 2008)

Serp said:


> No the random item is "Chekhovs Gun" and that is very much justifiable if done well its very good and can help connect the plot along. By *writing one thing into the plot at an earlier time with no significance, but to only bring it up how ever later as focus to the plot.* I personally like it if it is done well cos I'm like "Omg it was the ring " or some sort of shit.



@bold: I really like that too, I like to briefly mention something and purposely make it seem insignificant, something the reader may not notice and bring it back way later in the story to make the reader think "wtf where the hell did that come from???" I tried it once and readers had to go all the way back to the part of the story where I had mentioned said object; it was great because it had the exact effect/reaction I'd hoped for...


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## Serp (Aug 13, 2008)

One of my favorite devices to use, like an actual ass pull that makes sense.


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## Tyrael (Aug 13, 2008)

Lol, yeah, that's always a great little device-you know it's going to be significant but you can't see just how.


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## RaiRyuu (Aug 13, 2008)

Serp said:


> One of my favorite devices to use, like an actual ass pull that makes sense.



Exactly.

By the way, thanks for the link you provided; I'm looking through it and there's some rather interesting stuff.

Uh...I just thought of something relevant to this convo as well as something I was writing; would the term "chekhov's gun" qualify if speaking of a character not an item who barely appears in the whole story and seems insignificant and as common as any fodder character but who distorts the whole plot later on?


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## Serp (Aug 13, 2008)

Ive got lost on that site for like 2hrs  reading the articles and seeing if I notice the the examples, I find it like a fun wikipedia


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 13, 2008)

Serp said:


> Ive got lost on that site for like 2hrs  reading the articles and seeing if I notice the the examples, I find it like a fun wikipedia



I was reading some, its pretty interesting.


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## Tyrael (Aug 13, 2008)

RaiRyuu said:


> Exactly.
> 
> By the way, thanks for the link you provided; I'm looking through it and there's some rather interesting stuff.
> 
> Uh...I just thought of something relevant to this convo as well as something I was writing; would the term "chekhov's gun" qualify if speaking of a character not an item who barely appears in the whole story and seems insignificant and as common as any fodder character but who distorts the whole plot later on?



I think that was commonly said to be a deus ex machina.



Serp said:


> Ive got lost on that site for like 2hrs  reading the articles and seeing if I notice the the examples, I find it like a fun wikipedia



Me too. The lampshade hanging one was interesting and the rules of cool-completely true.


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## Serp (Aug 13, 2008)

Rairyuu said:
			
		

> Uh...I just thought of something relevant to this convo as well as something I was writing; would the term "chekhov's gun" qualify if speaking of a character not an item who barely appears in the whole story and seems insignificant and as common as any fodder character but who distorts the whole plot later on?



That person would be called Chekhov's gunman. Its all on that site 

A dues ex machina, is just clearly an asspull or an weird unjustifiable event that somehow fixes the problem.


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## Tyrael (Aug 13, 2008)

Serp said:


> That person would be called Chekhov's gunman. Its all on that site
> 
> A dues ex machina, is just clearly an asspull or an weird unjustifiable event that somehow fixes the problem.



Ah, it seems your trope knowledge far surpasses my own.


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## Serp (Aug 13, 2008)

I read alot of stuff on that site, one page just links me to another and another interesting topic like a maze, so I don't want to close the page.


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## Tyrael (Aug 13, 2008)

Serp said:


> I read alot of stuff on that site, one page just links me to another and another interesting topic like a maze, so I don't want to close the page.



Yeah, definition loops are a trap I fall into as well. It doesn't help that a lot of their articles have such funny names.

*Ninja Robot Zombie Pirates*.


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## Serp (Aug 13, 2008)

Yea exactly, they drag me in with the article names.


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## Pan-on (Aug 13, 2008)

i once looked something up on wikipedia for an essay. 2 hours later i realised i was sitting reading about the amish


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## Luckyday (Aug 13, 2008)

Luckyday said:


> I mean when the person is no longer in invisible mode and have a different apperance every time he becomes uninvisible.



sorry about that.


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## Tyrael (Aug 13, 2008)

Anonx said:


> i once looked something up on wikipedia for an essay. 2 hours later i realised i was sitting reading about the amish



Haha, that woulda had to be an odd night.



Luckyday said:


> sorry about that.



Nae bother, happens to the best of us.


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## Pan-on (Aug 13, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Haha, that woulda had to be an odd night.



wasnt the best night, i still had to do the essay.

on a related note to that I have not finished an essay before the night before its due in for about 3 years. Someone I went to school with actually bet against me being able to finish my next essay before then.


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## RockGuitarist (Aug 13, 2008)

I'll be posting the first bit of Universal Chaos in a few days.


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## Tyrael (Aug 14, 2008)

Last minute essay writin? Urgh... You know that you'll hate yourselves for it but you do it anyway.


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 14, 2008)

I am going to begin ranting at you all, for the sake of putting some coherence into my mind.


*Spoiler*: _plot/mechanics rant_ 



All these names are working names, just so you know:

Breaking the Chains is the fifth book of my EDOSTAR series, and one of the ones I think will be the best I do. It's got a modern time setting, so similar to our own technology levels, slightly ahead. There is a much larger crime rate compared to our world, due to a naturally larger ego, violent streak, and ambition in most people.

Symbols are the boundary between reality and magic in this world. What they are are unique markings on the body that enable forays into "elements". Traditionally its changing the density of heat or energy in the air, for ice or fire. Other symbols exist for lightning and such, I haven't gone too far into them yet.

No one has figured out how symbols appear. You're not born with them, you'll randomly wake up with one on you. It's not a common thing, but not rare either. Most people can barely do anything with them. Those with Symbols are more likely to have aggressive instincts and commit crimes.

What exists to stop them is the Police. Specifically, those with Symbols of their own, who are the ones to stop criminals with Symbols. But those who become Police generally lack the ambition of the criminals, the raw desire to climb to the top. It's an eternal battle, because as soon as someone gains a Symbol, they most likely gain an ego to match.

There are seven main characters in Breaking the Chains:

Pariath is a Symbol user of the Police. His is an ice symbol. Even though he appears lazy and reluctant to do anything, the only real reason he's a member of the Police is because he enjoys fighting other Symbol users.

Vashna is the opposite of Pariath. He's an on/off criminal fire user, who's crime more often than not is simply freaking other people out and being a disturbance. He and Pariath are always getting into fights, though Vashna's never imprisoned for long because he's not technically doing anything massively illegal. Vashna's main motivation is to associate with Pariath, who he treats as a friend and opponent at the same time. He wants to encourage Pariath to break loose and make a big difference to the world.

Lenka is another ice Symbol user. She doesn't actively use her Symbol though, usually she just forgets she has it, to the point that she's sometimes surprised when it does something. What Lenka is is a mechanical genius. She's got the mind to arrange hundreds of designs in her head, and get the best out of it. In compensation, she's got barely any drive, and has to be pushed to do something with her mind. She loves races.

Ilandas is a young racer at the top of his game. He's an eternal dreamer, and very enthusiastic. He's getting Lenka to create some new motorbikes of his design that promise to conquer the raceway. It's his exuberance that actually got Lenka interested.

Orseth is a wanderer with a Symbol covering his left arm under some heavy bandaging. He's not associated with the Police, but neither is he a criminal. He just goes back and worth wherever he wants. He doesn't use his Symbol unless he's absolutely forced to, cause usually he's in the public eye after using it. He has no memories of prior to getting his Symbol. The Symbol changes to cover all the power Symbols give, making him unique.

Hyron is a conspiracy theorist investigating the origins of Symbols after his wife developed one which went on to drive her insane. He wants to understand them, and know how to stop them.

Veela is a test subject of the developers of Symbols. Her body is covered from head to toe in them, and she has no trace of any of her higher functions left. Because of all the symbols covering her, she's little more than a weapon to be used by her owners. She'll be the last to appear in the story, and her past carries the answers to everyone's questions. But whether or not that past still exists is currently unknown.

~~~

And there we go. Plot/mechanics/character rant.


----------



## Tyrael (Aug 14, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> I am going to begin ranting at you all, for the sake of putting some coherence into my mind.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _plot/mechanics rant_
> ...



Sounds interesting, but wouldn't there be a large tendency in the Id rather than the Ego if people are more impulsive and violent? What exactly is the reason for this as well?


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## Pan-on (Aug 14, 2008)

I fell asleep at about 6am and my alarm clock confused me so much when i woke up I came up with what I thought was an amazing story idea then fell back to sleep. Woke up and its totally gone. Im going to start sleeping with a pen and paper under my pillow.


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## RaiRyuu (Aug 14, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> I am going to begin ranting at you all, for the sake of putting some coherence into my mind.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _plot/mechanics rant_
> ...




Yo, that sounds really interesting...Just reading about the characters made me want to see what happens in the story...I'm interested in seeing how you alternate between the characters...


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 14, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Sounds interesting, but wouldn't there be a large tendency in the Id rather than the Ego if people are more impulsive and violent? What exactly is the reason for this as well?



I don't have a massive grasp of Id and Ego, so I'd have to learn that, naturally.

It's a different world from ours. People develop differently. It just so happens that people are more impulsive and violent in this world than compared to us. Symbols also bring that out of them even moreso.


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## Tyrael (Aug 14, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> I don't have a massive grasp of Id and Ego, so I'd have to learn that, naturally.
> 
> It's a different world from ours. People develop differently. It just so happens that people are more impulsive and violent in this world than compared to us. Symbols also bring that out of them even moreso.



Ah, fair 'nuff I guess.

Although not necessary at all, if you're interested the Id is:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Basically the primary driver (in Freudian psychology) towards pleasure/gratification. It's often compared to that of a child-neglectful of consequences and everything is towards on the spot pleasure.


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## Serp (Aug 14, 2008)

The ego, super ego and id 

The ID is the driving force of desires and taking what you want when you want it, while the super ego deals with social morality and consequences of ones actions. The ego is a buffer between the two making sure neither becomes too strong. All need to be balanced to have a fully functioning normal psyche.  An episode of Blood Ties explains this concept as well


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## Tyrael (Aug 14, 2008)

Serp said:


> The ego, super ego and id
> 
> The ID is the driving force of desires and taking what you want when you want it, while the super ego deals with social morality and consequences of ones actions. The ego is a buffer between the two making sure neither becomes too strong. All need to be balanced to have a fully functioning normal psyche.  An episode of Blood Ties explains this concept as well



Is it the Eros and Thanatos the Id is divided into? It would be a nice wee fact if I wasn't sure I was getting it wrong all the time.

And apparently the Latin names were given to them after Freud, he named them in German. 

Blood Ties?


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## Serp (Aug 14, 2008)

Blood Ties a TV about vampires  and bullshit.

Yes the Id is eros and thanatos. Eros is sex drive and Thanatos violence drive in the most simple terms. 

Yea they had different names before, but I forgot like the super ego was called "Over Ego".


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## Tyrael (Aug 14, 2008)

Serp said:


> Blood Ties a TV about vampires  and bullshit.
> 
> Yes the Id is eros and thanatos. Eros is sex drive and Thanatos violence drive in the most simple terms.
> 
> Yea they had different names before, but I forgot like the super ego was called "Over Ego".



Uber-something, something and something. Yeah, this is why I failed a module.


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## Serp (Aug 14, 2008)

Lol, I just remember that though


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## Psallo a Cappella (Aug 14, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Last minute essay writin? Urgh... You know that you'll hate yourselves for it but you do it anyway.


 
I've always been an important-project procrastinator, but I love working under pressure because it forces me to think instead of letting my mind wander off, meandering in philosphical questions.

Id, Ego, SuperEgo.


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 14, 2008)

^^ Exact same feeling from me. I always work best under pressure.

*doesn't work in maths exams though *


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## Lord Yu (Aug 14, 2008)

Leggo my Ego.


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## Pan-on (Aug 14, 2008)

i dont love working under pressure, i ONLY work under pressure which is the downside of being nigh on immune to stress.


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 14, 2008)

Stress immunity high five 

Doesn't work in finals T_T


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## Pan-on (Aug 14, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Stress immunity high five
> 
> Doesn't work in finals T_T



doesnt work for dissertations either, oh that was a long night...


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## Serp (Aug 15, 2008)

I might as well post a summary for one of my stories.

_ In a world filled with magic with amazing feats are ordinary occurrences, the world is flipped upside down when weird and wonderful things foreign for magic start to happen. Even from beyond the grave it seems that someone is trying to get revenge. Questions need to be answered, whys whats and hows such as why are these certain children being targeted, what is source of their strange new gifts and how on earth are they going to stop and unearthly force. In a tale of vengeance, betrayal and secrets almost as old as time, will the truth be uncovered. 
_


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## Lord Yu (Aug 15, 2008)

Originality...


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## Tyrael (Aug 15, 2008)

Stress immunity? I'm about the opposite, problem is I work well when neither under stress nor unstressed. It's an unfortunate situation.

And not bad Serp, tbh I dislike synopsis's as a whole because they don't tend to represent the story properly-only the story can actually tell the story.


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## Serp (Aug 15, 2008)

^ I understand completely, synopsis's aren't something I like, I don't know what to write in it, either I give the plot away or it sounds too generic (looking at you here Yu) or worse yet it gives of the wrong message/feel of the story.


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## RaiRyuu (Aug 15, 2008)

Serp said:


> ^ I understand completely, synopsis's aren't something I like, I don't know what to write in it, either I give the plot away or it sounds too generic (looking at you here Yu) or worse yet it gives of the wrong message/feel of the story.



 Oh god, I have the exact same problems.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 15, 2008)

I think I'll just let my synopsis focus on Michelle from now on. Fuck everyone else. You can find that out from picking up the damn book.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 15, 2008)

I tend to really dislike having to write a synopsis because I feel like I can never tack everything in there right. People wonder "Why would someone do _that_" and the like but they have no sense of the characters because all you give them is the literal equivalent of an archaeologist's soil sample.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 15, 2008)

CTK is a public intellectual writer type. I am a recluse. Perhaps that's why we go at it sometimes.


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 15, 2008)

Ah, the dreaded question. When you tell someone you're writing someone and they're all "Oh, what's it about?"

I can NEVER answer it


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 15, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> CTK is a public intellectual writer type. I am a recluse. Perhaps that's why we go at it sometimes.



I don't often write in public, I only do when I realize that I need to go somewhere with no internet, TV or games to distract me. But people think that being in public is an invitation to ask what you're doing. And sometimes I want to shake them...


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## Lord Yu (Aug 15, 2008)

I'm talking about your lifestyle. You seem to have friends and associate with people through non digital means.


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## Tyrael (Aug 16, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Ah, the dreaded question. When you tell someone you're writing someone and they're all "Oh, what's it about?"
> 
> I can NEVER answer it



Lol, I always launch into a lengthy and complex rant that I never manage to get all the way through because of the complexity and overall ridiculousness of _Citizen Alpha_.

And what is this friend word there is talk of? Sounds like something you eat.


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## Serp (Aug 16, 2008)

I saw a friend once


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## Pan-on (Aug 16, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Lol, I always launch into a lengthy and complex rant that I never manage to get all the way through because of the complexity and overall ridiculousness of _Citizen Alpha_.
> 
> And what is this friend word there is talk of? Sounds like something you eat.



i do the opposite "yeh its about a guy, its not set in stone yet tho," im great at vague, its what keeps my essays near relevent


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## Bergelmir (Aug 16, 2008)

Is it really that hard to come up with a summary for a story? I find that simply using the very initial cause of the story works fine.
Ex: _James Blackwood is a paranormal detective who has recently received a seemingly harmless cigar box. But now he has the Pezzino Family gunning for him while warlocks and supernatural nasties of all sorts are trying to get their hands(and claws) on said cigar box. Did I mention a dragon is involved? James must find out why the cigar box is special before he finds himself six feet underground._
Now granted, I just did this off the top of my head and its pretty shite, but the necessary elements are there. Who and What.

Oh, and hi everbody. *waves*


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## Lord Yu (Aug 16, 2008)

My issue is my story is multi perspective and not centered around one character.


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## Bergelmir (Aug 16, 2008)

Ah, well... that'll do it. I suppose focusing more on the event than the people in the event might work. Or, you know, let it come to you after the entire thing is done. ...thats something I always find weird. While writing the story, I can't come up with anything to describe the story. Once its all done, I can come up with a summary or description quite easily. Mebbe its because I can sit back and look at it from the outside at that point. *shrugs*


----------



## Tyrael (Aug 16, 2008)

Serp said:


> I saw a friend once



Ooo, what did it taste of?



Anonx said:


> i do the opposite "yeh its about a guy, its not set in stone yet tho," im great at vague, its what keeps my essays near relevent



Lol, I would have thought that would have stopped your essays from being relevant if anything.



warefumetsu said:


> Is it really that hard to come up with a summary for a story? I find that simply using the very initial cause of the story works fine.
> Ex: _James Blackwood is a paranormal detective who has recently received a seemingly harmless cigar box. But now he has the Pezzino Family gunning for him while warlocks and supernatural nasties of all sorts are trying to get their hands(and claws) on said cigar box. Did I mention a dragon is involved? James must find out why the cigar box is special before he finds himself six feet underground._
> Now granted, I just did this off the top of my head and its pretty shite, but the necessary elements are there. Who and What.
> 
> Oh, and hi everbody. *waves*



My story has at least 4 main chars three main plot lines and no clear direction. I can't represent it properly without telling the story, unfortunately. I'll give it a go though.

Edit:

_Citizen Alpha is a mysterious organisation in the metropolis world of Levit, and after all of its members are massacre the new recruits are left unsure in a world that is politically tearing itself apart. Schism are opening in society, violently, and there is a deeper darkness lying beneath the surface._

It sounds crap, no one want to read on after that. Hence why I hate summaries.


----------



## Pan-on (Aug 16, 2008)

my use of the word relevance is pretty lenient.


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## Tyrael (Aug 16, 2008)

Fair 'nuff dude. 

Anybody around here actually done any writing for a change?


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 16, 2008)

I've written a ton lately.


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## Tyrael (Aug 16, 2008)

Not bad, I'm having trouble as of late, you still cycling through endless rewrites?


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 16, 2008)

I've been working on one rewrite this entire time.


----------



## Tyrael (Aug 16, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I've been working on one rewrite this entire time.



Well, the fact that your keeping it going is a good sign. I'm currently all over the place.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Aug 16, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Fair 'nuff dude.
> 
> Anybody around here actually done any writing for a change?



I'm doing new chapters for my fanfiction a lot, but that's more because I want to get onto my new story.


----------



## Tyrael (Aug 16, 2008)

Heh, I know the feeling, just wanting to finish something so you can start another.

Oh and people, obey my sig. Especially if you are an LD reg.


----------



## neko-sennin (Aug 17, 2008)

Anonx said:


> you got writers block from a girl at work! I didn't know it was contagious



Writer's Block is an insidious condition whose pathogens are many and varied. And, as I've learned from experience, treatments and cures for it can be equally varied and bizarre. 



Serp said:


> Here  The site has alot of terms and devices used in films, games and movies.



Damn you Serp! 

I've spent 3 whole days "browsing" that site, now I'm not gonna get anything done this week. lol, I've haven't had this happen since I first stumbled upon Wiki.



RaiRyuu said:


> @bold: I really like that too, I like to briefly mention something and purposely make it seem insignificant, something the reader may not notice and bring it back way later in the story to make the reader think "wtf where the hell did that come from???" I tried it once and readers had to go all the way back to the part of the story where I had mentioned said object; it was great because it had the exact effect/reaction I'd hoped for...



Always great when you get what you were trying for. I've ended up inserting a few Checkov's Guns in my re-write, just to cover up what were originally Ass Pulls of tactical significance later. Especially a certain character (who hasn't been introduced yet here)'s lockpicking skills, among other things.



Serp said:


> One of my favorite devices to use, like an actual ass pull that makes sense.



lol, that's actually the difference between Checkov's Gun and an actual Ass Pull, is that it's a type of foreshadowing. The other difference is whether it was achieved by ret con, or was part of the plan from the start.



Anonx said:


> i once looked something up on wikipedia for an essay. 2 hours later i realised i was sitting reading about the Amish



Funny how that works. I started on Checkov's Gun, and worked my way through action, horror and RPG tropes. One that's especially entertaining is:





Serp said:


> ^ I understand completely, synopsis's aren't something I like, I don't know what to write in it, either I give the plot away or it sounds too generic (looking at you here Yu) or worse yet it gives of the wrong message/feel of the story.





Taurus Versant said:


> Ah, the dreaded question. When you tell someone you're writing someone and they're all "Oh, what's it about?"
> 
> I can NEVER answer it



Yeah, I've tweaked and retooled my "Tradewinds" synopsis a couple times at FP because it never seems to properly represent the series.



Tyrael said:


> _Citizen Alpha is a mysterious organisation in the metropolis world of Levit, and after all of its members are massacre the new recruits are left unsure in a world that is politically tearing itself apart. Schism are opening in society, violently, and there is a deeper darkness lying beneath the surface._
> 
> It sounds crap, no one want to read on after that. Hence why I hate summaries.



I'm inclined to agree. As someone who's read a couple chapters of CA, I can safely say it doesn't really do the story any justice.


----------



## Serp (Aug 17, 2008)

@Neko


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## Lord Yu (Aug 17, 2008)

Slowly pictures are coming together in my brain. For the longest time, I've had problems with the mechanics of a certain characters powers. In the past they ended up to abstract and broken, but now I think I have the limits and methods to make them not look ridiculous.


----------



## Serp (Aug 17, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Slowly pictures are coming together in my brain. For the longest time, I've had problems with the mechanics of a certain characters powers. In the past they ended up to abstract and broken, but now I think I have the limits and methods to make them not look ridiculous.



I have to fix it completely and make it not broken or fake, before I can even start to fully develop the plot. Even balance out the amount of hax they have to see how it would effect the overall story.


----------



## Tyrael (Aug 17, 2008)

My power workings is for one story a bastardisation of the string theory, and then for another just completely never explained. Kind: this is the way it works: deal with it.

Oh and cheers Neko-unfortunately, as you may have noticed, I have think up a new title for the story.


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## Serp (Aug 17, 2008)

String theory  I learned abit about that.


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## neko-sennin (Aug 17, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Slowly pictures are coming together in my brain. For the longest time, I've had problems with the mechanics of a certain characters powers. In the past they ended up to abstract and broken, but now I think I have the limits and methods to make them not look ridiculous.





Serp said:


> I have to fix it completely and make it not broken or fake, before I can even start to fully develop the plot. Even balance out the amount of hax they have to see how it would effect the overall story.



One of the most common technical hurdles for dealing with magic and/or superpowers. Having a solid grasp of their workings and limitations is a good way to avoid Power Seep / Power Creep (that TV Tropes stuff is insidiously catchy... but apt) that reads more like Plot No Jutsu. I had a lot of trouble with that with a character in my series who suffered from Latent Psychic Powers Syndrome: meaning that he seemed to be able to do almost anything, from low-level mind-reading, to clairvoyance, even telekinesis if he was desperate enough-- but only as the plot demanded. In the end, leaving most of these powers intact, or even "slowly developed" over the course of the story, would have made him too powerful or gave him too many advantages in later scenarios, so I largely carved it out and just left him with his original "foreshadowing" dreams and ability to glimpse the unseen, and the result was a much more fun, resourceful character that didn't overshadow the rest of the crew.



Taurus Versant said:


> Yeah, putting feasible mechanics to magic is a pain. I understand that fully.



Tell me about it. Even though magical/mystical stuff rarely figures into my stories, I'm still glad I spend all the time fooling around, reading books about the occult, ghost stories, ancient myths and folklore, even roleplaying sourcebooks and video games, to get a sampling of all the cosmologies and philosophies there are about magic. It helps you figure out what works best in your world. Is it inherent to one's self, is it part of nature, is it derived from summoning or being conferred power by gods, demons, or other entities? Is it a matter of concentration, invocation, incantation, or perhaps even chanting mantras or making hand-signs (such as the Zodiac-based "mudra" hand-seals from Naruto), or does it even require rituals or accessories? What laws govern it, such as principles of im/mortality, Equivalent Exchange, or interactions between this material plane, and potentially other planes of existence? How far can it go against natural flow of the universe, such as the kind of ethereal energy often attributed to "unnatural" beings like revenants and mummies, or artificial constructs like golems or animated objects? It's interesting just to see how many ways a phenomenon can be explained.



Lord Yu said:


> I thought about giving mechanics to magic in my story but I preferred the mindfuck route.



That can also be fun, but depending on what kind of story it is, it can lead to issues of consistency. Especially if the scope of a character's powers or weaknesses seem to change more to the whims or plot than to any coherent or intuitive pattern or rules.



Tyrael said:


> Oh and cheers Neko-unfortunately, as you may have noticed, I have think up a new title for the story.



Cool. Guess I must have missed that part. Good to know it's still alive and well.


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## Tyrael (Aug 17, 2008)

Haha, I couldn't kill it if I wanted to.

No, a book named Citizen Alpha was recently released. As such I'd have to change the title.

Edit-Aye Serp, the theory is actually based off of a crude understanding of only the basics of it I'm afraid. Not all that scientific.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 17, 2008)

What do you guys think about ye old amnesia cliche?


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## Tyrael (Aug 17, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> What do you guys think about ye old amnesia cliche?



Depends how well written it is, and how it's plotted. Could be a cop out if done badly though.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 17, 2008)

I used it as it was either amnesia or death from emotional trauma.


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## Pan-on (Aug 17, 2008)

i once wrote a story where a guy lost his memory at the beginning and may or may not have committed a crime, the key idea was whether punishing him was correct if he had no memory and was essentially a different person. I liked the idea but I ruined it if I remember.


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## RaiRyuu (Aug 18, 2008)

Anonx said:


> i once wrote a story where a guy lost his memory at the beginning and may or may not have committed a crime, the key idea was whether punishing him was correct if he had no memory and was essentially a different person. I liked the idea but I ruined it if I remember.



Wow, that's a pretty good idea to write about; readers would crack their brains trying to figure out what the right thing to do with this guy is, but it would be difficult to write something of the sort...


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## Garfield (Aug 18, 2008)

*Spoiler*: _Friends...who can you trust_ 



A circle of 20college students that spend a lot of their life together binded together by their secret society where while playing cards they figure out how to deceive corporations and other business out of their money. What will tear them apart. And really is every member's intention the welfare of the other? One evening while playing a round and discussing the events thing suddenly go wrong and in a clash there are only 7 students left and given the secrets that are lost or hidden around, they are after each other's throats. Who will be the winner? 


Comes from a dream of mine where obviously I was the lead character...


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## Tyrael (Aug 18, 2008)

Anonx said:


> i once wrote a story where a guy lost his memory at the beginning and may or may not have committed a crime, the key idea was whether punishing him was correct if he had no memory and was essentially a different person. I liked the idea but I ruined it if I remember.



It's an awesome idea, but I'm sure it's been done before.



CX said:


> *Spoiler*: _Friends...who can you trust_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's just an awesome idea.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 18, 2008)

I have been neglecting this place much like I have been with the rest of my writing it seems. Strange thing is I have had very few new ideas...things right now have just been really busy with work and all and I have had a really hard time thinking up stuff to write that I actually want to work on.

Consequently my main story has suffered and has remained untouched for about a month now. I think I might go back and read over what I had and tryo go from there, if I get a feel for where I left things, I can tell where to take them next.


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## Pan-on (Aug 18, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> It's an awesome idea, but I'm sure it's been done before.



oh definitely but it would still be worth exploring I think, even if it wasnt the central focus of the story


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 18, 2008)

I have stopped trying to find the next great idea and I think I have accepted that most things have been done now. Its all in how you write them.


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## Tyrael (Aug 18, 2008)

I think interesting and original ideas count for a lot-sure a cliche can be good if well written, but surely a well written piece of originality is better?


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## RaiRyuu (Aug 18, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I have stopped trying to find the next great idea and I think I have accepted that most things have been done now. Its all in how you write them.



I have to agree; it's pretty difficult to come up with an original idea which hasn't already been used one way or another nowadays...I think it's more how you exploit the idea and the way you write, like you said, that would make the difference...


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## neko-sennin (Aug 18, 2008)

Anonx said:


> i once wrote a story where a guy lost his memory at the beginning and may or may not have committed a crime, the key idea was whether punishing him was correct if he had no memory and was essentially a different person. I liked the idea but I ruined it if I remember.



Yeah, this one's been done a lot. But sadly, most of them hang the plot on the question of whether or not the character did the deed, and nine out of ten usually revolve around trying to clear their name. Whereas, in your idea's case, I haven't come across nearly as many that actually explore the question of whether or not a person can or should be punished for something they have no memory of doing.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I have stopped trying to find the next great idea and I think I have accepted that most things have been done now. Its all in how you write them.



I generally agree. While "There's nothing new under the sun" is probably a slight exaggeration, it's also not far from the truth, and original story ideas are few and far between. Not that that's any excuse not to pursue one if the idea falls into your lap.



Tyrael said:


> I think interesting and original ideas count for a lot-sure a cliche can be good if well written, but surely a well written piece of originality is better?



Again, agreed. Unfortunately, such things tend to be rare gems, even compared to people putting new "twists" on old plots or themes, thus why I still place a lot of emphasis on original characters and compelling storytelling, no matter else is going on with a story.



Tyrael said:


> Indeed-it kinda kills narrative when you put a large complex explanation in the middle of a story, runs the risk of seeming too planted.



Which is why it usually works better to drop hints and relevant tidbits of info, like a trail of bread crumbs leading up to it. That way, even if it is a major plot twist, there's a lot less outright explaining to do when you get there.



Lord Yu said:


> Well there's always the appendix.



There's that, too, and it's worked for everybody from Tolkien to Robert Jordan.



Serp said:


> True but I usually have enough stuff to fill a small book, but I would most likely write it all in a companion guide.



That's another option, though I tend to question how much of a market there actually is for it. I've flipped through more than my share of them, but can't recall ever actually purchasing one. In fact, I don't know too many people who have them lying around their place, either. Economically, my advice would be to save the printing costs and have a companion _site_, instead, which would also allow for easy updating, rather than printing subsequent "editions" of it, while readers shake their fists at you all the way from the bookstore. As a college grad who frequently squeaked by with older "editions" of texts, just take my word on this one.


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## Garfield (Aug 18, 2008)

I find it pretty hilarious how selective apathy is used sometimes.


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## Tyrael (Aug 19, 2008)

Selective apathy?


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## Garfield (Aug 19, 2008)

It was a weird idea for a non-fiction, but never mind. I'm dropping it.


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## Tyrael (Aug 19, 2008)

I am intrigued actually-most apathy (if not all) is selective and would this be a non-fic examining this?


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## Lord Yu (Aug 19, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I have stopped trying to find the next great idea and I think I have accepted that most things have been done now. Its all in how you write them.



I've never strove for the next great idea. I think I said it before my thought process is "Hey this is a fun idea. I'll throw it in for the lulz." I've learned the best thing for me is to never take any idea too seriously. Last time I did that I ended up with S&M


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## Garfield (Aug 19, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I am intrigued actually-most apathy (if not all) is selective and would this be a non-fic examining this?


Yes yes. Infact the idea occurred to me while browsing the forum one day. Are you really interested?


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## Tyrael (Aug 19, 2008)

I'm more being ironic at the moment-unless you weren't joking.


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## Garfield (Aug 19, 2008)

Iron is a good metal. We use it a lot.


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## Tyrael (Aug 19, 2008)

Civilisation itself depends on it in fact, you could argue. I mean, slapsticks isn't nearly as good as material.


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## Garfield (Aug 19, 2008)

But sometimes you gotta use the cement of reductio ad absurdum even in a paradoxical manner perhaps.


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## Batman (Aug 19, 2008)

*I'M FINALLY FINISHED WITH THE FIRST DRAFT OF BOOK 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!XD*

<(^_^)>  <(^_^)>









I can finally get my life back and go outside!!!!!!!!


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## Lord Yu (Aug 19, 2008)

Now if I could actually finish my book.


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## Batman (Aug 19, 2008)

You should! Then you'd have reason to throw a dance party, like I feel like doing!


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## Lord Yu (Aug 19, 2008)

52 pages done and still alot of ground to cover before I get back to where I was.


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## Batman (Aug 19, 2008)

^ That's right, you keep rewriting/starting over yours. I'll bet if you hadn't done that, you'd have already had completed an army of books.


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## Garfield (Aug 19, 2008)

Batman said:


> You should! Then you'd have reason to throw a dance party, like I feel like doing!


Could I see copy of first book?


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## Batman (Aug 19, 2008)

^ Of snap! Interested reader!! XD Book one's almost finalized so once I incorporate the last bits of edits from my readers, I wouldn't be against it. I can use the feedback.


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## Garfield (Aug 19, 2008)

I'd love to beta read.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 19, 2008)

Batman said:


> ^ That's right, you keep rewriting/starting over yours. I'll bet if you hadn't done that, you'd have already had completed an army of books.



I've been working on my first rewrite for a long time lol. I only started over once. Speaking of feedback, I need some decent feedback on my story. I only have had one person look it over and he admits he's not the best judge.


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## Dream Brother (Aug 19, 2008)

'Grats Bats.

I've only just completed the first _line_ of my first potential novel, so I have a bloody long way to go yet.


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## Batman (Aug 19, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I've been working on my first rewrite for a long time lol. I only started over once. Speaking of feedback, I need some decent feedback on my story. I only have had one person look it over and he admits he's not the best judge.



Feel free to send it my way. Now that I finally have some time I'd be glad to look over it. Shoot me a pm and we can exchange e-mails.



			
				Dream Brother said:
			
		

> 'Grats Bats.
> 
> I've only just completed the first line of my first potential novel, so I have a bloody long way to go yet.


Gracias.
lol Well if worse comes to worse you could always call it a poem and say you're halfway there.


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## Serp (Aug 20, 2008)

Someone finished!


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## Lord Yu (Aug 20, 2008)

Wow, it's kind of overwhelming to look at how many pages I've thrown out. Gods, I have alot to do.


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## Tyrael (Aug 20, 2008)

Finaished...I take my proverbial hat off to you.


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## Pan-on (Aug 20, 2008)

Wow well done, if its anything like your FFs I look forward to seeing it completed.

I have a couple of different ideas I would like to turn into novels, not sure which I would like to finish first, the one I like the best or the one I believe would be more commercially viable if I were ever to try to get it published (not that I don't like it too)


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## Batman (Aug 20, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Finaished...I take my proverbial hat off to you.



thx. Now comes the hard part of getting it to make sense.



			
				Anonx said:
			
		

> Wow well done, if its anything like your FFs I look forward to seeing it completed.
> 
> I have a couple of different ideas I would like to turn into novels, not sure which I would like to finish first, the one I like the best or the one I believe would be more commercially viable if I were ever to try to get it published (not that I don't like it too)


 Well I always worry if its going to be good as a whole. I can already see obstacles in my way. First off its too long. These novels are a young adult series, which typically average from between 60-80 thousand words. (at least for the first book). After all my whittling down, my first book ended up being 105 k, but it's still pushable, I feel. The second book however is right now around 200 thousand words. And i didn't even put everything in it that I had intended.  I know it will come down in size but still. . . Also it can be a bit challenging at times for the age-group I'm aiming for, but I'm sure it'll work out.

You'll probably end up writing a better story if your more interested in it. I say go with that one.


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## Pan-on (Aug 20, 2008)

Batman said:


> thx. Now comes the hard part of getting it to make sense.
> 
> Well I always worry if its going to be good as a whole. I can already see obstacles in my way. First off its too long. These novels are a young adult series, which typically average from between 60-80 thousand words. (at least for the first book). After all my whittling down, my first book ended up being 105 k, but it's still pushable, I feel. The second book however is right now around 200 thousand words. And i didn't even put everything in it that I had intended.  I know it will come down in size but still. . . Also it can be a bit challenging at times for the age-group I'm aiming for, but I'm sure it'll work out.
> 
> You'll probably end up writing a better story if your more interested in it. I say go with that one.



Oh yeh I agree, maybe I said it wrong what I mean is im interested in both ideas but one seems more commercially viable whereas the other seems like it would be taken better by critics. Obviously Im just speculating and this only applies if the writing is of a good enough quality anyway. 

and your writing for young adults, I have to start thinking about what demographic im writing for as it always seems to be my own.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 20, 2008)

I think I am finally ready to start working on my short stories again, its been a while and I have had a pretty good rest. Now I just have to find the time. I hate closing and opening the next day at work.


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## Batman (Aug 20, 2008)

Anonx said:


> Oh yeh I agree, maybe I said it wrong what I mean is im interested in both ideas but one seems more commercially viable whereas the other seems like it would be taken better by critics. Obviously Im just speculating and this only applies if the writing is of a good enough quality anyway.
> 
> and your writing for young adults, I have to start thinking about what demographic im writing for as it always seems to be my own.



Well not technically 'young adults' but in the young adult fiction genre which is essentially teenagers. [13-17] You probably already knew that but, I had to clarify, b/c people have scratched their heads before asking me why I only write for twenty-year-olds. 

I am curious how you know that your other story idea _isn't_ commercially viable.


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## Pan-on (Aug 20, 2008)

Batman said:


> Well not technically 'young adults' but in the young adult fiction genre which is essentially teenagers. [13-17] You probably already knew that but, I had to clarify, b/c people have scratched their heads before asking me why I only write for twenty-year-olds.
> 
> I am curious how you know that your other story idea _isn't_ commercially viable.



haha yeh I know, iv never liked that label myself, young adults.

oh i don't, it could very well be more commercially viable but I can't think of any high selling books that are similar to the idea (cant actually think of any books really) whereas the other is more fantasyish and there is obviosly a fairly large fanbase for that type of book.

then again I wouldnt want to be pidgeonholed as a fantasy writer. its all so complicated


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## Batman (Aug 20, 2008)

^hmmm, maybe you're into the breakthrough of an untapped resource if that's the case.

Personally I would only hate to be pigeonholed if it inhibited me in some fashion. If it's working, they can call me whatever they want.


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## Pan-on (Aug 20, 2008)

haha maybe, its not a totally original idea or anything its just a different way of doing it, would be nice if it was the start of something though.

well what I mean is I don't want people to avoid something I write because they think I only write fantasy or whatever and they dont like that kind of book. Its not so much how it would affect me but more my potential readers.


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## Tyrael (Aug 20, 2008)

Batman said:


> ^hmmm, maybe you're into the breakthrough of an untapped resource if that's the case.
> 
> Personally I would only hate to be pigeonholed if it inhibited me in some fashion. If it's working, they can call me whatever they want.



Agreed.

And AnonX, my advice is start both and run with the one that is the easiest/most fun/best. You can't decide which one to choose without giving both a bash.

My demographic is myself. I'm presuming if I like it then there must be a few others whom will take to it as well. This whole genres thing isn't something I invest in heavily anyway.

Originality=taking an old idea and making it seem new


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## Pan-on (Aug 20, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Agreed.
> 
> And AnonX, my advice is start both and run with the one that is the easiest/most fun/best. You can't decide which one to choose without giving both a bash.
> 
> ...



Oh I am, my interest jumps between the 2 from time to time.

pretty good assumption really


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## Tyrael (Aug 20, 2008)

Anonx said:


> Oh I am, my interest jumps between the 2 from time to time.
> 
> pretty good assumption really



Sounds good, I've got so many projects I start and never go anywhere though-watch out for that.

I had a new idea yesterday, not sure whether I should force myself back into the crap fest I was working on before, or take this fresher route.


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## Pan-on (Aug 20, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Sounds good, I've got so many projects I start and never go anywhere though-watch out for that.
> 
> I had a new idea yesterday, not sure whether I should force myself back into the crap fest I was working on before, or take this fresher route.



haha I know the feeling, I start so much but never get it finished, I think id rather finish something terrible than barely start 10 great pieces.

I just had to read a bedtime story to my little brother and sister, I am so bad at reading aloud, I read faster than I can speak so I get all tongue tied and end up starting one word and finishing another


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## Tyrael (Aug 20, 2008)

I think I'll at least give this new one a start, but def. try and fini' my current project; whatever happens.

What book were you regaling upon your younger siblings?


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## Pan-on (Aug 20, 2008)

it was some pirates of the carribean thing where there names were in it, basically i wanted something short, i hate reading aloud lol


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## Batman (Aug 20, 2008)

Anonx said:


> it was some pirates of the carribean thing where there names were in it, basically i wanted something short, i hate reading aloud lol



My older brother used to literally get a picture book, point at the pictures and say "This happened", "Then this", "and this too", "Then it was over." Then he'd shut the book and leave the room. lol That bastard.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 20, 2008)

My dramatic readings are known for their power. I have real stage voice.


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## Pan-on (Aug 20, 2008)

my mum told me i knew the books so well i could tell if she cheated when she read them. i also used to read after my mum stopped reading so i was miles ahead.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 21, 2008)

Another day. Another chapter.


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## Tyrael (Aug 21, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Another day. Another chapter.



Another day, and nothing written.


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## Garfield (Aug 21, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Another day. Another chapter.


Can you show me? Would love to read it.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 21, 2008)

You'd have to read the whole character arc I have so far.


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## Tyrael (Aug 21, 2008)

Why not repost that link to your blog Yu?


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## Lord Yu (Aug 21, 2008)

That's just the prologue and I haven't posted anymore of the story since then.

I've almost figured out a way to fix the Michelle path. So far it's looking to be the more original of the paths.


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## Tyrael (Aug 21, 2008)

Is this path system like GRR Martin? I'm unsure how, exactly, you could do it otherwise.


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## Garfield (Aug 21, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> You'd have to read the whole character arc I have so far.


That wouldn't be a bother.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 21, 2008)

Kinda sorta, Sometimes you get different viewpoints in the same chapter though. But its the viewpoint of a nearby character. You won't get the view of a character from Eridaltia's path in Michelle's or vice versa.


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## Batman (Aug 21, 2008)

I was supposed to be taking some time off. But then I went and started my novella.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 21, 2008)

How novel.


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## Tyrael (Aug 21, 2008)

Time off? Heh, I give myself way too much. Still not completed a novel since CA.


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## Garfield (Aug 21, 2008)

But I thought writing stuff is like taking time off :[


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## Tyrael (Aug 21, 2008)

Writing is fun, but also tiring and not a natural thing for me to do when I want to whittle away spare moments. Not something I do in spare time, but something I have to do for a certain amount of time each day. Needless to say, I haven't actually been able to do this though.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 21, 2008)

It all depends on how you look at it.


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## Garfield (Aug 21, 2008)

True. I never do serious writing. Only write my fantasies down.

EDIT: No not necessarily sexual


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## Lord Yu (Aug 21, 2008)

sometimes unconscious sexual fantasies come to the surface. Bondage S&M happened by accident once.


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## RaiRyuu (Aug 21, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Writing is fun, but also tiring and not a natural thing for me to do when I want to whittle away spare moments. Not something I do in spare time, but something I have to do for a certain amount of time each day. Needless to say, I haven't actually been able to do this though.



That's pretty much what I have to say for myself too.


How often do you guys feel like what you're writing isn't good in terms of quality? (style, plot, interest to readers etc...)


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## Lord Yu (Aug 21, 2008)

I have to induce a kind of mild euphoria to get my best writing. I don't think I write well when I'm too sad. Black metal and masturbation work wonders for my creativity.


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## RaiRyuu (Aug 21, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I have to induce a kind of mild euphoria to get my best writing. I don't think I write well when I'm too sad. Black metal and masturbation work wonders for my creativity.



I think it's the complete opposite for me; my writing is at its apogee when I'm sad...Go figure...

Music is always a good catalyst...Though the each type may lead to a different quality of writing...


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## Garfield (Aug 21, 2008)

I can write best when I'm most depressed or when I've just finished doing a few hours of physics >_>

I am weird...


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## Tyrael (Aug 21, 2008)

Honestly when writing the story itself is what I rely on to stimulate and induce emotions. Perhaps the necessity of the emotions is what makes writing such damn hard work-perpetuating an emotion is a draining thing.


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## Pan-on (Aug 21, 2008)

i either have to make myself write or get into a creative mood otherwise il stare at a blank peice of paper/screen for ages then give up.


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## Batman (Aug 21, 2008)

Whoa I mean to reply sooner than this. I got distracted by words, and the pizza man. I sat down to type and I realize that almost an hour has gone by. lol


Anyways.

Writing is very tiring. Physically so. Especially when I get into the tail end of a draft and I push myself to write more than I told myself previously I was capable of. (I recently found out I could write 10 thousand words a day consistently. It was just a mental block I had to get past) When I was done with the previous book, I felt so drained. I didn't want to do anything . . . for about half a day.

Then the boredom of not writing started to kick in. So I suppose it is entertaining too, but yeah its definitely work. The fun part is when my characters surprise me and do some ridiculous stuff that I had never planned on. I mean some ridiculous stuff.

I think I need a new desk too. My legs get too cramped in this one.


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## Tyrael (Aug 21, 2008)

I think the physical tiredness comes mostly from the strong emotions writing elicits-you feel adrenaline for a prolonged period of time so it pretty much grounds you down. Not to mention the mental tiredness from concentration.

10K a day *consistently* (or even at all)? You continue to scare me Bats.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 21, 2008)

Today, I had a story development happen in away I did not plan at all in a manner way more mindfuck than anything I had planned. It can be fun when characters come to life under your fingers.


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## Garfield (Aug 21, 2008)

How many of you guys "write" your stories as opposed to "typing" your stories?


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## Lord Yu (Aug 21, 2008)

I'd never get anything done handwritten. My handwriting turns everything in to a disaster.


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## Garfield (Aug 21, 2008)

Haha. I'm the exact opposite. If I'm in front of a computer there are too many distractions that keep me from writing anything


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## Tyrael (Aug 21, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I'd never get anything done handwritten. My handwriting turns everything in to a disaster.



This.

But the fact that my laptop doesn't have internet is the only reason I get any writing done at all. Otherwise I would distract myself constantly.


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## Batman (Aug 21, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I think the physical tiredness comes mostly from the strong emotions writing elicits-you feel adrenaline for a prolonged period of time so it pretty much grounds you down. Not to mention the mental tiredness from concentration.
> 
> 10K a day *consistently* (or even at all)? You continue to scare me Bats.



I never thought of it like that. Because sometimes I do get excited and my blood get's pumping. Even when I'm wiriting a sad scene I get a bit intertwined. That's probably it on some level. And yes the concentration factor is hella draining.

Well I do take breaks, but I just stopped doing just about everything else.  I figured that if King does it, I should too if I want to try and get to where he is. So I'm tying to push myself.



> How many of you guys "write" your stories as opposed to "typing" your stories?


 I hate writing by hand. It's too slow. I only do that when I'm coming up with characters or outlining, b/c I like to have the freedom to draw in the margins for something like that. But when it comes to writing the actual draft, I'm all keyboard all the time. Unless I'm out somewhere. Then I'll write but never by choice.


----------



## Tyrael (Aug 21, 2008)

Damn, I'm beginning to sound like a psychologist...

But yeah, emotions are thought to be essentially physical things, so that's probs where a lot of tiredness comes into it.


----------



## sel (Aug 21, 2008)

The only serious bouts of writing I've done (flashfics et. al) have all been on PC. Thing is I don't exactly prepare myself to be able to write down something the moment I get a flash of "inspiration" wherever I am. Perhaps I should though since I wouldn't forget things.

Ah well.


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 21, 2008)

I'd probably have 10 books done by now if I didn't actually have ADD. It's a miracle I can get as much done as I do. I haven't been quite as able to match my 26 pages in a day thing but I've managed half that a few times.


----------



## Pan-on (Aug 21, 2008)

i also have atrocious handwriting so usually on a computer, i do have like 7 notebooks, i keep buying them at train stations and things when i need something to do


----------



## Garfield (Aug 21, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I'd probably have 10 books done by now if I didn't actually have ADD. It's a miracle I can get as much done as I do. I haven't been quite as able to match my 26 pages in a day thing but I've managed half that a few times.


I probably have ADD but I hate doctors so probably not gonna go see one to make sure xD

Take care guys! Parteh time.


----------



## Batman (Aug 21, 2008)

Anonx said:


> i also have atrocious handwriting so usually on a computer, i do have like 7 notebooks, i keep buying them at train stations and things when i need something to do


 I wish we had a train system out here where I live. Well we do, but its so new that it kinda of sucks. Everybody drives and I really don't like to. But I'd love to take the long trains places and type on a lap top. . . I wish I had a lap top too. >_<



			
				CX said:
			
		

> I probably have ADD but I hate doctors so probably not gonna go see one to make sure xD
> 
> Take care guys! Parteh time.



Shows how much I've been out the past year. I was wondering what you were about to *partake* in for like five minutes.


----------



## Tyrael (Aug 21, 2008)

Discipline is the key. Hence why I'm not very good.

Why are all of my shorts off-spring of _Dr Who_?


----------



## Batman (Aug 21, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Discipline is the key. Hence why I'm not very good.
> 
> Why are all of my shorts off-spring of _Dr Who_?



lol They do say to write about what you know. :amazed


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## Lord Yu (Aug 21, 2008)

I'm still writing animu and vidya games. It's only a matter of time till it gets black metal. But then I already had people roaming around in a foggy forest with demons. Wait it's already there.


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## sel (Aug 21, 2008)

Why the emboldening of _partake_ batman?


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## Garfield (Aug 21, 2008)

I think he read my parteh as partake or somethin'
My parteh got shut down :[


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## Chee (Aug 21, 2008)

CX said:


> How many of you guys "write" your stories as opposed to "typing" your stories?



Somehow I always end up on the internet if I try to type it.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 21, 2008)

I end up on the internet and jump back and forth.


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## Garfield (Aug 21, 2008)

Internet is wayy too fucking addicting.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 21, 2008)

So I think I've managed to get a stalled path going. I have a path in my mostly third person story in first person. I just loved Gohei too much in first person.


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## Batman (Aug 22, 2008)

CX said:


> I think he read my parteh as partake or somethin'
> My parteh got shut down :[



Yeah pretty much. I read the 'parteh' wrong, proof of my out of touch . . . ness.

Got shut down? sucks. Here I was living vicariously through you too. 



			
				Lord Yu said:
			
		

> So I think I've managed to get a stalled path going. I have a path in my mostly third person story in first person. I just loved Gohei too much in first person.


Is this another alteration?? XD Your gonna get sidetracked again, then back tracked, then on tracked but ultimately sidetracked. 

Or are you on track right now? ?

I finally finished for today. So I'm feeling hungry.


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 22, 2008)

This is not an alteration or a sidetrack. I have three paths on my story and his was getting left behind. I haven't even finished his prologue.


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## Garfield (Aug 22, 2008)

Too much noise can do that :[

Its time to write down my next dream


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## Batman (Aug 22, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> This is not an alteration or a sidetrack. I have three paths on my story and his was getting left behind. I haven't even finished his prologue.



Ah so playing catch up with one of the sections. I know that I've got two of three entire stories that I need to catch up with. 




			
				CX said:
			
		

> Too much noise can do that :[


 Bah! People don't let people have fun anymore. They just assume that 'us youngin's' is up to no good.

I wonder how long it will be before i'm no longer included in the youngin's category.


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## Garfield (Aug 22, 2008)

As long as your heart beats with Rock and Roll my man!


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## RaiRyuu (Aug 22, 2008)

CX said:


> How many of you guys "write" your stories as opposed to "typing" your stories?



When I'm out, especially in class, I usually write; they say writing on paper is a lot better than typing, because typing is easier (auto-correct and stuff like that) and also because it turns out so neat. If you forget something while typing you can just fix it by writing in between, whereas if you're writing, you have to fit it in, write above previous words and make a whole mess, not to mention all the mistakes and scratching out. The chaos that emerges when writing and the fact that it's harder seems to pitch in when it comes to making the writing better, at least that's what I've heard/read though I haven't confirmed it. Still, I doodle a lot on the same page when I'm writing and that helps with creativity, but when I'm stuck as I type, I just sit there doing nothing until I figure out how I should proceed.

But despite all that I'd have to say I type more because it's time saving, a lot easier and my handwriting is pretty nasty especially since I like writing with a pencil and it tends to fade/become really difficult to read after a period of time.



			
				Lord Yu said:
			
		

> I'm still writing animu and vidya games.



Me too; sometimes I feel it's something extremely wrong 



			
				Lord Yu said:
			
		

> This is not an alteration or a sidetrack. I have three paths on my story and his was getting left behind. I haven't even finished his prologue.



I believe I'm doing something similar to your paths in the four stories I'm currently working on, but I have a question; do you think the paths should always be equal? For example if you write 10 pages for this character you should right an equal amount for the others?



			
				Batman said:
			
		

> I never thought of it like that. Because sometimes I do get excited and my blood get's pumping. Even when I'm wiriting a sad scene I get a bit intertwined. That's probably it on some level. And yes the concentration factor is hella draining.



One does tend to get affected depending on the mood of the story I think. As for the draining part, I think that a lot of people (mostly those who don't write) seriously underestimate how tiring on the mind and body it can be.


Sorry if this post is long


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## Tyrael (Aug 22, 2008)

Well I'm doing a story with different paths, but they mesh so often they cannot really be called paths in their own right. I think that by no means do they need to be equal lengths or so on and so forth.


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## RaiRyuu (Aug 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Well I'm doing a story with different paths, but they mesh so often they cannot really be called paths in their own right. I think that by no means do they need to be equal lengths or so on and so forth.



Well, my paths are also entangled, sometimes being completely independant from each other but at other times being extremely related...but if they're not _relatively_ equal, don't you feel like you're neglecting one of them or giving too much attention to the other?


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## Lord Yu (Aug 22, 2008)

My paths eventually entangle but sparingly and brief.


----------



## sel (Aug 22, 2008)

You know what's odd? I can only seem to write whilst hungry.

At the moment I only have one path since I'm at the beginning and it's going to carry on that way for quite a while.


----------



## RaiRyuu (Aug 22, 2008)

sel said:


> At the moment I only have one path since I'm at the beginning and it's going to carry on that way for quite a while.



Usually, my paths start separated at the start, but merge as one later on...



> My paths eventually entangle but sparingly and brief.



I don't think I'd be able to do that without working really hard at it...


----------



## Tyrael (Aug 22, 2008)

sel said:


> You know what's odd? I can only seem to write whilst hungry.
> 
> At the moment I only have one path since I'm at the beginning and it's going to carry on that way for quite a while.



Hungry? That is kinda odd. But, hey, if it works it works.

And one path is the sane thing, mostly more than one is just over ambitious and fails to connect with the chars. properly.

And Yu if they barely cross, how do you keep it relevant to one book?


----------



## RaiRyuu (Aug 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> And Yu if they barely cross, how do you keep it relevant to one book?



I think it can be done, an example off the top of my head would be a story about war, where the first path is that of a soldier and the second of a strategist; you can see both point of views, to make a complete story and they could never meet at all...Not sure if that makes sense to you though or if that's what Yu means


----------



## Tyrael (Aug 22, 2008)

Rai said:


> I think it can be done, an example off the top of my head would be a story about war, where the first path is that of a soldier and the second of a strategist; you can see both point of views, to make a complete story and they could never meet at all...Not sure if that makes sense to you though or if that's what Yu means



This is true-but often you get shown parts of other storylines that are relevant to the first one but they aren't a real lead path in their own way. It could risk seeming redundant if that message is used.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> And Yu if they barely cross, how do you keep it relevant to one book?



They're separate yet deeply intertwined. Like one person searching for another.


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## Garfield (Aug 22, 2008)

sel said:


> You know what's odd? I can only seem to write whilst hungry.
> 
> At the moment I only have one path since I'm at the beginning and it's going to carry on that way for quite a while.


When I start writing I start making frequent trips to the kitchen without a second thought and end up eating too much x[


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## RaiRyuu (Aug 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> This is true-but often you get shown parts of other storylines that are relevant to the first one but they aren't a real lead path in their own way. It could risk seeming redundant if that message is used.



Yeah, I can see what you mean. However, I have actually read books where this whole path thing is done. Coincindentially, it's just like Yu said, someone is searching for another, and the book is almost divided in half between the two characters. It's pretty hard to successfully pull off, but if it works, it turns out to be great.


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 22, 2008)

The connection of each path is something I keep subtle and nebulous at first then I slowly knit the threads and tie the strings and make them into a grand web you didn't know was there.


----------



## RaiRyuu (Aug 22, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> The connection of each path is something I keep subtle and nebulous at first then I slowly knit the threads and tie the strings and make them into a grand web you didn't know was there.



That sounds rather interesting. What sort of story is it? (mystery, adventure etc...)


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 22, 2008)

A surreal piece of contemporary set fantasy.


----------



## Batman (Aug 22, 2008)

Whoof. I forgot to eat again. And I'm only halfway done 4 today. I had to stop and order a pizza. What a pain. Somebody should just cook for me.

Maybe I'll find me a girl who makes a really nice meatloaf. ?


----------



## Tyrael (Aug 22, 2008)

*Insert obligatory joke about women and the kitchen*

I forget to eat as well, console yourself that at least it's because you are doing something worthwhile by writing and not just spiraling into a dark pit of decadence.


----------



## Batman (Aug 22, 2008)

I've had my moments of dark spirals so I suppose I should be grateful. Are you still itching to write but not progressing like you'd like?




.
.
.
.
hey that rhymed.


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## Tyrael (Aug 22, 2008)

Dunno, it's as if my hunger to write is gone, replaced with inevitable bouts of self-depreciation after half an hour or so. It's probably 'cause I no longer believe that I am capable of producing anything that is even slightly worth reading. Not sure how many times I've considered just giving up now. Not sure why I bother writing in the first place. But, heh, it's not as if it's ever really been good enough for it to ever work out with anything anyway.

But, heh, enough of me flaunting my writing as lost ground; there's rhyming abound.


----------



## Batman (Aug 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Dunno, it's as if my hunger to write is gone, replaced with inevitable bouts of self-depreciation after half an hour or so. It's probably 'cause I no longer believe that I am capable of producing anything that is even slightly worth reading. Not sure how many times I've considered just giving up now. Not sure why I bother writing in the first place. But, heh, it's not as if it's ever really been good enough for it to ever work out with anything anyway.
> 
> But, heh, enough of me flaunting my writing as lost ground; there's rhyming abound.


lol at the rhyme.

But seriously. I was getting the same feeling about a month or two ago. It just wasn't happening. I mean I was writing, but I didn't like it. I wasn't feeling it and I was questioning whether I could do it on any level at all. So I basically turned away and did something else. Anything else until I got the itch again.

Also until I got the confidence back again. I think you'd benefit from doing the same. I'd hate to see you become a victim of a self-fulfilled prophecy.


----------



## Tyrael (Aug 22, 2008)

Self-fulfilled prophecy is almost in our very nature of humans: it is actually one of the themes I write about the most.

But these aren't new: pretty perpetual actual, although they wane and pulse and sometimes I find myself able to have some sort of a confidence. My writing is pretty horrid, but I've not been writing long enough to be anywhere approaching decent anyway. That's the truth but as I am by nature a creature of instant gratification I let it trouble me anyway. And I've accepted that I'm never really gonna like my writing either: you have to presume that self-perception ain't infallible. Other driving forces probably lie external from writing but I think my dirty laundry has too much of an airing already. All I know is that I haven't written in far too long and my writing is guff at best with no real improvements.

Ah well; such is life.


----------



## Batman (Aug 22, 2008)

I think your way too hard on yourself. I was of the opinion (from the things I've read mind you) that your writing has never looked stronger. Certainly your critical eye has developed as well so you might be noticing much more than you should be in this stage. I think that you shouldn't even worry if its good or not. It just seems like you  haven't written in a while. Once you get back into it, after a few days you'll be able to get back into it. And once you finish something, no matter how much you think it sucks or whatever. Once you get the characters from points A to B, you'll get that monkey off your back and relieve some stress.

Also, by saying the self fulfilling prophecies are in our nature, why not turn that into a positive? I was only able to write as much as I can by telling myself so. Don't dwell on the negative aspects of your writing until the draft is done, mayne. But I still advise to take a break. You sound hella burnt out.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 22, 2008)

I often float from God-complex to swirling piece of shit. You just have to learn to turn self hatred into literature.


----------



## Batman (Aug 22, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I often float from God-complex to swirling piece of shit. You just have to learn to turn self hatred into literature.



Yes! Do this. I wish I was good at brevity.


----------



## Adonis (Aug 23, 2008)

I know I'm a couple...decades late but I find it good readings for writers.


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## RaiRyuu (Aug 23, 2008)

by the way, I've been meaning to ask, is it okay to post something we wrote? even if it's crap/boring


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## Tyrael (Aug 23, 2008)

Post away, always happy to give constructive criticisms.

And cheers Bats, I reckon I was jus' tired-as I said it comes and gos. Self-hate in writing? I can imagine lampshade hangings left, right and centre.

And Orwell rules.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 23, 2008)

People post stuff they have written in here all of the time, or they link to a place where its posted even. So I don't see how it would be a problem.


----------



## RaiRyuu (Aug 23, 2008)

This is part of something I wrote some time ago instead of sleeping in class. I don't think it's any good, but what the hell;


*Spoiler*: __ 



Chapter1

?To think they once existed.?

In addition to the calm voice, quiet, muffled footsteps could be heard. They were two; two were walking under a burning sun through a desert, a barren wasteland. They had reached abandoned ruins. Ancient statues, though most of them covered in sand still stood strong. They depicted legendary, mythological creatures though supposedly non existent, still renowned throughout the world; dragons. The statues represented the large mighty creatures but a smaller scale had been used to give the statues the mere size of a human yet the details with which they had been carved was remarkable; every scale, every tooth and every claw had been carefully carved with extreme precision.

?As frightening as they may seem to people, don?t you think they?re marvelous? The most glorious race ever to have walked the earth; rulers of the sky, bringers of fire and destruction, predators to all and yet incredibly smart, unbelievably powerful and amazingly majestic?? The man who spoke with his taciturn companion looked down with a faint and barely apparent smile on his face. ?Heh?No wonder this was built and still endures the test of time after thousands of years? he said.

The other traveler knelt slowly and removed some of the burning sand with his left hand thus uncovering a stone square filled with cracks in which a message was engraved:

?BEWARE. HERE LIE THE KEEPERS OF BALANCE AND RULERS OF THE WORLD.?

Though the used language to deliver the warning was one that had long died, it seemed the young quiet man had been able to understand it. The standing man looked down towards his companion and in turn read the warning.

?They still met the same fate as the rest?Not too impressive? he said. ?Would?ve been interesting to face one though; no one really knew just how powerful they really were? he added.

They seemed to be warriors judging by their attire and equipment; the first one, the one who had been talking, wore light brown pants, a long blood red coat and black shoes. He had a large sword on his back with a relatively long black handle. On each side of the sword, left and right, was holstered a silver handgun. The man wore no shirt under his coat and thus partially revealed and strong, well built upper body. Finally, he wore black gloves which left his fingers uncovered and had white spiky hair.

As for his companion, he was differently dressed and equipped; black shoes and black pants. In addition he wore a black sleeveless shirt and a long black coat, somewhat similar to that of his fellow traveler. His coat?s sleeves took rather contrasting forms; his left sleeve had been pushed back and covered his arm only to the elbow, leaving his wrist and hand unveiled by it, but still covered by a white bandage. Only his fingers and a small part of his hand were visible. His right sleeve on the other hand veiled his entire arm save a small part of his thumb and his fingers. In his right arm he held a sheathed sword whose sheath was black and handle was green. He carried no other apparent weapon. The young man had medium length, light brown hair which covered most of his eyes, making them barely visible. 

The one who was standing placed his hands on his waist. ?Well, we came, we saw?Nothing left to do here? he said. He closed his eyes and sighed. ?Guess we should head back? he added. His companion slightly caressed the blazing sand, looking at the ground.

?Yu?? he said calmly, still looking down.

Suddenly, the ground began to shake violently. The quake?s strength and intensity caused the statues to shatter. A strange shape began to rise behind the two. It was covered in sand and was so gigantic it blocked out the sunlight. As the standing traveler, Yu, turned to face it, the sand which covered it fell to both its sides, finally revealing the creature; a dragon on all fours. It was humongous. Its mere emergence from beneath the ground to the surface had generated a powerful earthquake. The man looked up in order to get a decent look of the creature; its skin was protected by hard black scales, famous for their sturdy defense and penetration resistance. Its mouth was closed and therefore only a few of its sharp teeth were apparent; they were almost as big as a grown man. Its black wings were not yet spread out and its tail remained under the sand. Large, yellow eyes looked down at the two. They were only a couple of feet away from the colossal monster. A few seconds later, the dragon quickly stood on two feet, making it seem even bigger, spread its wings out and let out a terrifying roar that was heard miles away. As it growled stridently, Yu reached for his sword while his companion stood up slowly, his back still facing the beast.

?Let?s do this!!? said Yu, excited and ready for battle.

He did not yet know that the battle and its outcome would be very different from his expectations.

Chapter2

Tears. Tears were trickling down on the floor. A little boy was crying, all alone in a dark corner. His suppressed sobs echoed in the building. It was drenched in darkness. He heard quiet footsteps. Someone was coming closer to him, someone wearing heels.

The boy tried to back away in fear but he was already against the dirty wall and could retreat no more. A few whines of desperation were let out, but the person or thing kept closing in at a slow, steady pace. The boy crouched and tried to push harder in a desperate and impossible attempt to escape somehow through the wall. Whatever was after him had almost reached him. The sound of the heels hitting the floor stopped. The boy looked up and saw a figure; someone taller than him, with a body distinctively different from his. A girl, or so it seemed. The boy was shivering, terrorized. However, when the creature crouched to face him, his fear lessened; in was in fact a girl. Now that she was so close, he could see it clearly; red hair and grayish eyes. She had a bright smile on her face which provided a bit of comfort to the small boy.

?What?s your name little kid?? she asked with a friendly tone. The boy knew better than to talk to strangers, even one who looked and smelled like she did, especially in his case. Still, he had no choice; he was probably going to die either way so complying seemed like a good idea since he was in great need of an ally though it was unlikely that she was or could possibly become one. He wondered what a girl like her would be doing in such a place. After a brief moment of reflection and hesitation, one that seemed like an eternity to him, he finally decided to try to speak.

?J?John? he replied bashfully.

?Okay John, a boy your age shouldn?t be alone in a place like this. What do you say we get out of here?? said the girl, still adopting a friendly tone.

?C?Can?t?I can?t?They?re coming to get me? stated the boy, with panic beginning to overtake him.

?Who?s coming to get you?? inquired the girl.

The boy moved his upper body and head closer to her, while still remaining near the wall. His eyes were wide open. ?The monsters? he whispered as if it was a forbidden secret and even the mention of the monsters would lure them to him. The girl smiled. ?Monsters? No monster?s gonna get you while you?re with me! I promise? she said confidently.

Judging by her reaction, the boy had already figure out what she was thinking. ?She?s just like them; just like everyone else?She doesn?t believe me? he thought hopelessly as he retreated back to his corner, looking down sadly. ?Come on, let?s get out of here? said the girl as she reached out her hand, waiting for him to take it.

Suddenly, the boy heard a cracking sound which, despite the many black stains on his face, made him turn completely pale. He looked behind the girl and saw a hand reaching for her; the arm was covered by a roomy black sleeve. In addition, the hand was definitely not that of a human being for it was deprived of skin and flesh and was formed by mere bones. The boy began to shake while the oblivious girl attempted to calm him down. All of a sudden, a hard hit was heard and an unanswered scream reverberated in the dark. 

It was the helpless boy.

Chapter3

The long battle had ended. Though it had lasted quite a while considering the opponent, it had been much shorter than expected. Crimson pools covered the sparkling sand and several flames still burned strong in spite of the lack of combustible material. After all, a dragon?s fiery breath was renowned for its scorching ability and because it could smolder for days. Though the battlefield had been engulfed in flames, the victor generated one last small fire and released a breath filled with smoke. Though victorious against a relatively powerful foe, hardly any wounds could be seen upon the winner?s body.

He sat on the slain beast?s back. The mighty dragon lay lifeless on the hot sand, its body filled with wounds. Yu had a lit cigarette between his lips and his arms on his knees. He was practically intact. He grabbed the cigarette with two of his fingers and his sword which was in the dragon?s back with his right hand. He took the cigarette away from his face and let out some smoke as he looked down towards his companion.

?Well, guess that?s that? he said with a faint smile on his face.

Unlike him, his companion was spotless; upon seeing him, one would be certain he had not participated in the fight since he had no dust or sand and none of the slain beast?s blood on his clothes. He was standing with his back facing the corpse. Yu pulled his sword out and jumped to his friend?s side. He then put his sword on his back, the way he usually carried it. He looked at his companion whose gaze had not deserted the horizon.

?Let?s go?? said Yu calmly.


----------



## horsdhaleine (Aug 23, 2008)

troublesum-chan said:


> i wanted to write a children's book. ><
> 
> It is about little amorphous white blobs with simplistic face who create their destinies based off of what kind of plant grows out of their head.



how cute!!! upload it to me when it's finish then send me the link


----------



## neko-sennin (Aug 24, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> I actively enjoy Roleplaying. It helps with your plot on the fly skills. You gotta work with other people while aiming for something everyone can enjoy. It's a great thing. I believe I've improved my writing from roleplaying.



That's kinda where I got my start, before I even picked up a pen. It wasn't the more formal style, with dice and maps and stuff, but my friends and I made up our own characters, put together our own worlds, and just took off from there. I got a lot of DM XP before I ever knew what one _was_. It was where I got my initial inspiration for most of what I write now.



Batman said:


> *I'M FINALLY FINISHED WITH THE FIRST DRAFT OF BOOK 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!XD*
> 
> <(^_^)>  <(^_^)>



Congrats, Bats. Feels great, don't it?



			
				Anonx said:
			
		

> and your writing for young adults, I have to start thinking about what demographic im writing for as it always seems to be my own.



Personally, I don't concern myself with demographics, as that is more of a marketing game than a creative one. I often write with a particular person in mind, what Stephen King often refers to in _On Writing_ as an Ideal Reader. Sometimes that IR is myself, sometimes it's a friend, but either way, you can't please everyone, so you may as well write something you're satisfied with. As long as you're true to yourself, anything you put your heart and soul into will find an audience _somewhere_.

That, and unless you fit very comfortably within in its limitations, I would be very wary of allowing yourself to be pigeonholed into such a narrow fit as "young adult" as it is often dominated by over-reactive parents and hysterical lobbies, making it overly difficult to write anything more intellectually or philosophically challenging than an 8th grade level. By and large, the adults of the adults of the world don't seem to put much faith into they youth they did or didn't raise, and tend to be afraid of characters who question norms and arrive at different answers than they did, for better or worse.



			
				CTK said:
			
		

> I think I am finally ready to start working on my short stories again, its been a while and I have had a pretty good rest. Now I just have to find the time. I hate closing and opening the next day at work.



Cool. It always feels refreshing, doesn't it? Feel free to post when it's ready, and in the meantime, I'll try to catch up on your more recent stuff.



			
				Rai said:
			
		

> Music is always a good catalyst...Though the each type may lead to a different quality of writing...



Sometimes the right music helps me focus, and sometimes it distracts me. I can usually tell pretty readily anymore by whether or not I've made any significant progress after a few tracks. Sometimes, though, a wall of sound becomes necessary to drown out other things that _would_ cut into your concentration. Given how hectic it's been all summer, combined with the fact that I've been the only one here the last couple weeks, right now silence is golden. Though after a while, I imagine I'll shift back into a more musical mode.



			
				Rai said:
			
		

> How many of you guys "write" your stories as opposed to "typing" your stories?



That would be me. Over here with the composition notebook, or right now, a 200-page tome of a journal, since said notebooks were locked up in storage for a year. I can focus more easily in different surroundings, and transcription is a natural foil to my own lazy editorial inclinations. That, and, as this board illustrates, my computer harbors many distractions, so it's easier for me to focus on writing with a rough draft sitting in front of me.



			
				Rai said:
			
		

> do you think the paths should always be equal? For example if you write 10 pages for this character you should right an equal amount for the others?



Not always. I'm more inclined to balance based on plot or character significance than word-count symmetry. That's not to say that I don't "check in" on characters from time to time, but unless they're up to something interesting, it would just be filler. Of course, sometimes it can be used for suspense, such as a pursuing enemy overtaking one familiar landmark after another.



			
				Sel said:
			
		

> You know what's odd? I can only seem to write whilst hungry.



That _is_ odd. As somebody who's starved for his art at a couple points in his life, I can _tolerate_ hunger if I'm sufficiently inspired, but it is hard to concentrate.



			
				Lord Yu said:
			
		

> The connection of each path is something I keep subtle and nebulous at first then I slowly knit the threads and tie the strings and make them into a grand web you didn't know was there.



That is fun, especially if it's timed well. One of my favorite games, Suikoden III, is like that, playing the early chapters from the perspective of three different characters. Each character's "chapter" covers the same period of time in the story, from that character's perspective. Such as the death of one character's best friend, and then playing _as_ the character who killed the other's friend. A most unsettling scene, especially due to the order in which I chose to play each character. And while two characters are enemies in a war, the third character is part of an outside investigation, offering a third-party perspective of the game's events, as well as a behind-the-scenes view of causes and effects within the story.

Sometimes it's the only way to go when you have characters whose paths diverge and reconvene at different points in the story.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 24, 2008)

Suikoden III is one of my favorite games. 

On another subject, my audience has always been demented weaboos.


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## sel (Aug 24, 2008)

> Sometimes the right music helps me focus, and sometimes it distracts me. I can usually tell pretty readily anymore by whether or not I've made any significant progress after a few tracks. Sometimes, though, a wall of sound becomes necessary to drown out other things that would cut into your concentration. Given how hectic it's been all summer, combined with the fact that I've been the only one here the last couple weeks, right now silence is golden. Though after a while, I imagine I'll shift back into a more musical mode.



I actually found this certain music which I found helped a lot with my productivity when it comes to writing. The thing is that I've been avoiding listening to that music now when not doing that despite my liking for it xD

I have such strange superstitions & idiosyncrasies it's ridiculous...

edit:





> That is odd. As somebody who's starved for his art at a couple points in his life, I can tolerate hunger if I'm sufficiently inspired, but it is hard to concentrate.



It is yeah. I find that when I'm full/contented I just don't have anything compelling me to write and I find that I can't be bothered.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 24, 2008)

Since, the more I looked at it the more the second part of my story looked like a ripoff of Code Geass. I was finally forced to change it. Good news is I can finally fix a bunch of plot holes, bad news, I may have made my story five times longer. ;_;


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## Batman (Aug 25, 2008)

So I've had something of an epiphany. It's 4:48 am my time, and something came to me while making a sandwich.

While I was writing for the past few days, the ghosts of my interests have been blaring in my mind. And the more I write the more they scream at me. Saying things like "plagiarism" over and over again. And while I know that what I'm writing is nothing of the sort, it still is exactly that. In all aspects of everything I've ever written. It's all the same. So much so that while I'm writing certain scenes I'm simultaneously playing back other scenes from other books I've read, shows I've watched; in habitual excess.

So what? Right. I've always been a believer of the phrase, there is nothing new under the sun. That the only thing we believe to be originality, is actually a unique spin of an old idea. Or a concept that couldn't be implemented before because of any number of circumstances. But for some reason, I don't believe this. I can't. Just as I've been struggling to create something worth while, I feel like I'm fighting to rise above the burden of my own influences.

And like I've swimming towards the surface while wearing heavy metal chains, I've got to get a gasp of air before I'm dragged back down again. But in that moment, that brief instant I feel like I'll find an idea and story that has never been done before.

And that is where I'll monument my words.


anyways, just thought I'd share


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 25, 2008)

Everything does feel like a spin on something old at times, but there's always something only you can do. Finding things that are uniquely you and linking them together is the fun part of creating a plot.

That's why, even though they're hard to read, there are wonderful things inside of dreams.


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## Batman (Aug 25, 2008)

^ yes dreams are wonderful. I've always been big on not only analyzing the but just straight up remembering them. There is a unique perspective that they give that almost can't be described in words. (hopefully almost)


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 25, 2008)

I can say quite happily that the next story I'm working on is gonna be good, because it has roots in my dreams.

I had two dreams I actually wrote down, because each felt importance. I could see no links between them.

Then one day, I had a brainstorm, and the two dreams actually became backstories for the main characters who were built around a single mental scene I was carrying for an age.

It was almost beautiful how so many different thoughts of mine came together out of nowhere to make the story. That's why I'm so confident in it.


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## Pan-on (Aug 25, 2008)

Iv gotten so bad at remembering my dreams recently, but I am quite good (as much as it is a skill) at having lucid dreams which are really cool.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 25, 2008)

Well I think that I need to just force myself to start on writing something small, its not like I have writers block, I have been writing. But just not on the stories that I need to be working on. I'm not sure what it really means, its like I know I want to write, but I don't do it. I think about writing all of the time but I don't go ahead and act on it. 

I have continued to even brainstorm for the stories...so why am I not writing them? 

It might be that I needed a rest, but I mean life isn't getting any easier around here. Pretty soon here I am going to need to apply for a new job somewhere because this one I have is draining the life from me...I think that might be part of the problem.


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## Tyrael (Aug 25, 2008)

My dreams, until recently, were far away things that happened beyond cognition and left any waking impact seldom at most. Recently whenever I dream I wish I could forget it-on particularly bad ones I can have a bad taste in my mouth for days on end. I'm not talking about nightmares here (they're actually quite good fun and often highly amusing), this is straight up and down asylum worthy stuff.

Very rarely would they make decent books, unless as evidence in an application for a mental home.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 25, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Since, the more I looked at it the more the second part of my story looked like a ripoff of Code Geass. I was finally forced to change it. Good news is I can finally fix a bunch of plot holes, bad news, I may have made my story five times longer. ;_;



OK it wasn't really a ripoff of a Code Geass just close enough in concept to ruffle my neurotic feathers. Hell the more comparisons I think of the more vague the similarities are. But I have a fragile personality and  it made me rethink all the plot holes and logic jumps that it would take to make the second arc the way it was planned. Thus I benefit from this greatly.


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## Tyrael (Aug 25, 2008)

Batman said:


> So I've had something of an epiphany. It's 4:48 am my time, and something came to me while making a sandwich.
> 
> While I was writing for the past few days, the ghosts of my interests have been blaring in my mind. And the more I write the more they scream at me. Saying things like "plagiarism" over and over again. And while I know that what I'm writing is nothing of the sort, it still is exactly that. In all aspects of everything I've ever written. It's all the same. So much so that while I'm writing certain scenes I'm simultaneously playing back other scenes from other books I've read, shows I've watched; in habitual excess.
> 
> ...



Damn can't believe I missed this-moments of catharsis are always gratifying regardless of their outcome. Hopefully you can break the stagnant skin that has formed over the raging ocean.

Is Code Geass any good Yu? Glad to see that you've been able to identify points of your story that bug you.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 25, 2008)

One of the best shows in awhile. It actually uses Amorality! To varying effect.


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## Tyrael (Aug 25, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> One of the best shows in awhile. It actually uses Amorality! To varying effect.



Amorality? Nonsense, there exists no such thing.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 25, 2008)

Or the main character  actually makes you think about consequences. That is to say Lelouch is a very entertaining character and the show actually has half a brain.


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## Batman (Aug 25, 2008)

> Damn can't believe I missed this-moments of catharsis are always gratifying regardless of their outcome. Hopefully you can break the stagnant skin that has formed over the raging ocean.
> 
> Is Code Geass any good Yu? Glad to see that you've been able to identify points of your story that bug you.



Cheers to that notion. I've either had a breakthrough or a breakdown. Or maybe a little bit of both.

Also Code Geass is great. It's become by favorite Anime of all time, which surprised the hell out of me because I change my opinions about these kind of things about as often as a mountain sneezes.



> Well I think that I need to just force myself to start on writing something small, its not like I have writers block, I have been writing. But just not on the stories that I need to be working on. I'm not sure what it really means, its like I know I want to write, but I don't do it. I think about writing all of the time but I don't go ahead and act on it.
> 
> I have continued to even brainstorm for the stories...so why am I not writing them?
> 
> It might be that I needed a rest, but I mean life isn't getting any easier around here. Pretty soon here I am going to need to apply for a new job somewhere because this one I have is draining the life from me...I think that might be part of the problem.


I understand. Finding a new job is always a pain in the ass, something I've had to do with an amazing frequency.

Also you might need to take a break. If you know you've got to write but can't do it, your probably dipping into the apathy pool at the moment. And need to try and take your mind off of it for a week or so.



> Or the main character actually makes you think about consequences. That is to say Lelouch is a very entertaining character and the show actually has half a brain.


 One of the wonders of the show. Doesn't make me feel like I have to leave my brain in a bucket somewhere to enjoy it.







also I hate reading the moment for some reason. Something about how the books I keep getting suck.


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## Pan-on (Aug 25, 2008)

Batman said:


> also I hate reading the moment for some reason. Something about how the books I keep getting suck.



about this time last year I realized I hadn't read a book outside of school for a year, this was a couple of weeks before I started 2 literature courses.

It had to do with my finding manga and subsequently absorbing huge amounts of it instead of book.

the funny thing is I started manga because that summer I had reread the whole series of WoT, Harry Potter and had read the sword of truth series and had nothing in the house left to read.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 25, 2008)

My ADD keeps me moving from activity to activity so my reading pace is slow. On top of that, a nearby used bookstore and a near endless supply of old loose change keeps my collection growing faster than I can read.


----------



## Pan-on (Aug 25, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> My ADD keeps me moving from activity to activity so my reading pace is slow. On top of that, a nearby used bookstore and a near endless supply of old loose change keeps my collection growing faster than I can read.



my flatmate used to always buy cheap old books at a rate far exceeding the pace he could read them, whereas I bought brand new expensive books at a slightly slower pace and was poor and always needed something to read.

it took me months to see that borrowing his books was obviously the sensible solution, so he loaned me perdido street station and a collection of short stories by J.D. Salinger


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## Batman (Aug 25, 2008)

Anonx said:


> about this time last year I realized I hadn't read a book outside of school for a year, this was a couple of weeks before I started 2 literature courses.
> 
> It had to do with my finding manga and subsequently absorbing huge amounts of it instead of book.
> 
> the funny thing is I started manga because that summer I had reread the whole series of WoT, Harry Potter and had read the sword of truth series and had nothing in the house left to read.



That's about what i've been doing. Continual rereads and disgrusting amount of manga. 

I just have a hard time reading books I don't like.


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## Pan-on (Aug 25, 2008)

Batman said:


> Yeah Toradora! is <3 for me. Its the cause of my consistently increasing obsession with Taiga (the character pictured). I'm waiting for it to get popular so I can find a few more pics of her.
> 
> I tried going back and reading easier books as well, but the hard part was finding one that's well written. I suppose I could go back and finish the Dark tower series. I've got to start book 6 one of these days, or maybe I'll read a james patterson book or three if I have an afternoon. . .
> 
> ...



Tora Dora is pretty good, I tend to look at all the newish manga that comes out to see if theres anything great in there, Bakuman looks promising too and theres an interesting one called my mysterious girlfriend x.

I read the first dark tower book, it didnt hook me in any way, i found it a bit dull

not sure what to suggest with easy books, if you want something thats sorta between the 2 poles as it were id suggest Douglas Adams books, very funny and clever.

20th century boys is great, vagabond iv not read, id suggest Genshiken if you havent read it and yotsubato! is really good as well. 

I have a soft spot for all the manga by adachi despite it all being incredibly similar and a little predictable there is just something nice about it, he deals with some stuff really well too.


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## Batman (Aug 25, 2008)

Anonx said:


> Tora Dora is pretty good, I tend to look at all the newish manga that comes out to see if theres anything great in there, Bakuman looks promising too and theres an interesting one called my mysterious girlfriend x.
> 
> I read the first dark tower book, it didnt hook me in any way, i found it a bit dull
> 
> ...


You've got to read Vagabond. It's soooo good. In my top 5 for Seinen Manga. Genshiken was cool, I finished that one recently, online which kinda sucks cause it was one of the series I was buying. But as I'm poor right now >_< . . . I'll have to check out Yotsubato! And Douglas Adams too. I keep saying that I'll get around to reading his books and then I never do for some reason.

And yeah dark towers aren't for everyone. I still think book 2 was the best in the series that I've read, and if you didn't like that one well then there might be little hope.

Mysterious Girlfriend x, is one strange series. I had to stop after a while because it was just so odd. lol I kinda have to be in the mood to read that story.

I've never read any of the adachi manga. Had a hard time getting over the art style but I know I'm missing something.


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## Pan-on (Aug 25, 2008)

Batman said:


> You've got to read Vagabond. It's soooo good. In my top 5 for Seinen Manga. Genshiken was cool, I finished that one recently, online which kinda sucks cause it was one of the series I was buying. But as I'm poor right now >_< . . . I'll have to check out Yotsubato! And Douglas Adams too. I keep saying that I'll get around to reading his books and then I never do for some reason.
> 
> And yeah dark towers aren't for everyone. I still think book 2 was the best in the series that I've read, and if you didn't like that one well then there might be little hope.
> 
> ...



il have a look at vagabond next time im on the hunt for something to fill the hours.

I own all of Genshiken and iv reread it about 9 times and noticed something new each time, last time i noticed the word "Perth" which is where im from 

i may read the rest of the dark tower, everyone says it gets better I just didnt find the style exciting. Love Kings stories though, the shawshank redemption is an amazing movie.

it is really odd but I like characters like that as opposed to the usual shonen stereotypes.

i like the art in adachi its easy on the eyes, i see his stuff as layered, very simple on the outside with deeper themes, specially a couple of his non sports works.

I would particularly recommend adventure boys its 5 i think, short stories about childhood which i think are great.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 25, 2008)

I on the other hand read endless series of crappy manga knowing its crappy in an effort to kill my brain.


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## Batman (Aug 25, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I on the other hand read endless series of crappy manga knowing its crappy in an effort to kill my brain.



 Are you sure your middle name isn't 'ray of sunshine'?

Of course I read a bunch of crappy manga too, but only to make myself feel superior.




> il have a look at vagabond next time im on the hunt for something to fill the hours.
> 
> I own all of Genshiken and iv reread it about 9 times and noticed something new each time, last time i noticed the word "Perth" which is where im from
> 
> ...


I might have to buy the rest of them them. I do keep going back and reading them more than any other in my collection. ?

Adventure boys, huh. I'll have to check it out too. I could use a few short stories considering the behemoths that I've read.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 26, 2008)

Bad manga and anime is my alcohol. It's what I use to level myself out. I hate it and want to stop.


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## Batman (Aug 26, 2008)

lol at least it's a free habit. ^ And sometimes genuinely funny. Cause drunk jokes are never funny to people who aren't drunk.


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## Pan-on (Aug 26, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Bad manga and anime is my alcohol. It's what I use to level myself out. I hate it and want to stop.



lol i read that as level myself up


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 26, 2008)

Good anime and manga give me writer's will. Bonus.


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## Tyrael (Aug 26, 2008)

Anime/manga is like mind chocolate. Doesn't fill you up, and is only decent only for the feeling of your cognition drifting pleasantly into a haze of large eyed softness. (Obviously there are exceptions *cough*20thCenturyBoys*cough* that transcend this and are works of brilliance).


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## Pan-on (Aug 26, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Anime/manga is like mind chocolate. Doesn't fill you up, and is only decent only for the feeling of your cognition drifting pleasantly into a haze of large eyed softness. (Obviously there are exceptions *cough*20thCenturyBoys*cough* that transcend this and are works of brilliance).



Yup thats pretty much exactly right, I probably could have mapped the plot of most of the shonen iv read after the first chapter


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## Tyrael (Aug 26, 2008)

Anonx said:


> Yup thats pretty much exactly right, I probably could have mapped the plot of most of the shonen iv read after the first chapter



And the first chapter is only necessary because of one the few points of variance in shonens-the names.


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## Pan-on (Aug 26, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> And the first chapter is only necessary because of one the few points of variance in shonens-the names.



there like 2 variants on male characters

1 - really successful at sports/fighting and an all around popular and nice guy

2 - useless guy who is indecisive and eventually becomes 1

there are like 3 for girls

1 - childish

2 - bossy

3 - shy


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## Lord Yu (Aug 26, 2008)

I have decided what my story needs. More ninjas on tigers.


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## Pan-on (Aug 26, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I have decided what my story needs. More ninjas on tigers.



pff thats a given, all stories need more ninja's on tigers.


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## Tyrael (Aug 26, 2008)

Nah, ninjas on tigers are old news. It's tiger ninjas you want.


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## Pan-on (Aug 26, 2008)

nah there just wannabe ninja turtles, cant touch the heroes in a half shell!


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## Tyrael (Aug 26, 2008)

Anonx said:


> nah there just wannabe ninja turtles, cant touch the heroes in a half shell!



I smell CrossFic-Ninja Mutant Berserk Turtles.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 26, 2008)

Crap I got a better idea for an older chapter  and it may wreck my...actually, it I might go a different direction and end up with two more chapters... I need to get the other paths to match the Eridaltia path. They have the concepts but for some reason I just can't get them off the ground.;_;


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## Tyrael (Aug 26, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Crap I got a better idea for an older chapter  and it may wreck my...actually, it I might go a different direction and end up with two more chapters... I need to get the other paths to match the Eridaltia path. They have the concepts but for some reason I just can't get them off the ground.;_;



Fly with it, it'll muck any meticulously laid plans, but that's what the creative process is about-resolution.


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## Batman (Aug 26, 2008)

Anonx said:


> nah there just wannabe ninja turtles, cant touch the heroes in a half shell!



turtle power!


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## Tyrael (Aug 28, 2008)

Anyone got any advice for structuring within a scene, or within a piece of writing? I think it is the route of my pacing problems, not to mention my inability to write essays.

I have decided to stop limiting my imagination and write the most ridiculous space opera/epic fantasy my imagination can conjour. Think Kingdom Hearts/Dune/Legacy of Kain/20th Century Boys-it's nothing like that but I want to try and look carefully at them anyway.


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## neko-sennin (Aug 29, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Suikoden III is one of my favorite games.



Same here. I've got II thru V, and like to get my hands on the first one some day.



Lord Yu said:


> Since, the more I looked at it the more the second part of my story looked like a ripoff of Code Geass. I was finally forced to change it. Good news is I can finally fix a bunch of plot holes, bad news, I may have made my story five times longer. ;_;



Sometimes it goes that way. For a couple of the upcoming parts of Tradewinds, I carved a whole bunch of irrelevant scenes, subplots and minor characters (including a really stupid shape-shifting assassin who felt not only out of place in the story, but even in the world of this series overall) out of the rewrite version to make the plot less convoluted. It was a lot of work, but it paid. And trust me, you're not the first to write something that you realize later was, say, based on something you saw on TV as a kid, and, consciously, at least, forgot all about. When I think up character, place, or even gadget names, I often Google them anymore, just to fact-check my own childhood memory. In a couple cases, it turned up things I'd never heard of, but still would have looked derivative to those who had.



Taurus Versant said:


> Everything does feel like a spin on something old at times, but there's always something only you can do. Finding things that are uniquely you and linking them together is the fun part of creating a plot.



In my writing, at least, I've often found my characters to be the biggest source of this. Their own resourcefulness and eclectic chemistry tend to yield different directions from even some of the basic plotlines I set out to write.



Batman said:


> ^ yes dreams are wonderful. I've always been big on not only analyzing the but just straight up remembering them. There is a unique perspective that they give that almost can't be described in words. (hopefully almost)



Ah, funny you should mention dreams. Though they didn't play a very big role in the most recent selections of my writing, they tend to be an inspiration for a lot of what I write.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I have continued to even brainstorm for the stories...so why am I not writing them?



Perhaps they're not ready yet. I find my pen very hesitant until the notes it scribbles from time to time actually add up to something to go on.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Pretty soon here I am going to need to apply for a new job somewhere because this one I have is draining the life from me...I think that might be part of the problem.



That's a likely culprit. I've worked my share of places whose present seems to drain the life out of you every minute you're there, and just getting down the street few blocks lets you _feel_ yourself regenerating. I had to build up a lot of inner strength and resolve for my work to survive some of my jobs, but I would recommend escape over fighting a losing battle, especially one that's costing you something so important to you.



Anonx said:


> my flatmate used to always buy cheap old books at a rate far exceeding the pace he could read them, whereas I bought brand new expensive books at a slightly slower pace and was poor and always needed something to read.



Sounds like a former roomate of mine. Originally got me hooked on used book and thrift stores.



Anonx said:


> I read the first dark tower book, it didnt hook me in any way, i found it a bit dull



Weird. The "unsettling dream" atmosphere of The Gunslinger was what drew me into the series, and it was the second King book I ever read. At least try one more: 2, 3, and 4 definitely pick up the pace, expand the cast, and fill in a great many blanks in the plot left unanswered in the first book.



Tyrael said:


> Nah, ninjas on tigers are old news. It's tiger ninjas you want.



You mean like this guy?

lol, are you serious?



Tyrael said:


> Anyone got any advice for structuring within a scene, or within a piece of writing? I think it is the route of my pacing problems, not to mention my inability to write essays.



I don't know if it counts as _advice_, per se, but I tend to go with a very organic approach to writing most of my stories. The first draft is all about the flow of events, just write whatever comes to mind and let it develop at its own pace. Then, from the second draft onward, I tend to look for patterns in events, plot, or even symbolism, that might be used to organize the structure of the working draft version.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 29, 2008)

I know how I ended up with that problem. I kept thinking of classic revenge stories like the Count of Monte Cristo.( I think  I was watching Gankutsuou at the time) Really to be honest it was not at all a rip off of Code Geass. I was just being neurotic. The real problem is that I was forcing the plot again. if I did what I was planning to do I would have to move certain characters in directions they just weren't headed. I was rerouting things and ripping holes in the plot that didn't have to be there.

On another note, ever have a problem of developing characters too fast? I know characters develop at their own pace, but sometimes it's like your unconsciously forcing them out of sheer impatience. Like there's nothing happening in the plot for the character to move this way. Bah, its hard to explain.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 29, 2008)

Well I quit my job, maybe I will have clarity of mind to write again?


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## Lord Yu (Aug 29, 2008)

That's a good man. Now get drunk and lock yourself in your house.


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## neko-sennin (Aug 29, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well I quit my job, maybe I will have clarity of mind to write again?



lol, in 2004 (The Year Nobody Was Hiring), 11 months of unemployment turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to Tradewinds (rough drafts of Parts 4 thru 7, in just that spring/summer), but I had to find a way to start paying the rent again sometime. Couldn't mooch off my roomies forever, even with food stamps buying the groceries. 



Lord Yu said:


> The real problem is that I was forcing the plot again. if I did what I was planning to do I would have to move certain characters in directions they just weren't headed. I was rerouting things and ripping holes in the plot that didn't have to be there.
> 
> On another note, ever have a problem of developing characters too fast? I know characters develop at their own pace, but sometimes it's like your unconsciously forcing them out of sheer impatience. Like there's nothing happening in the plot for the character to move this way. Bah, its hard to explain.



Yeah, I've been there. Of all my characters, Justin Black probably went through the longest line of Character Derailments before I finally got a clear sense of who he was and what he was about. Resolving his backstory went a long way towards defining his character.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 29, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> lol, in 2004 (The Year Nobody Was Hiring), 11 months of unemployment turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to Tradewinds (rough drafts of Parts 4 thru 7, in just that spring/summer), but I had to find a way to start paying the rent again sometime. Couldn't mooch off my roomies forever, even with food stamps buying the groceries.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I've been there. Of all my characters, Justin Black probably went through the longest line of Character Derailments before I finally got a clear sense of who he was and what he was about. Resolving his backstory went a long way towards defining his character.



The thing is I write more when in school than when out it seems...work was kind of keeping me from having ideas. It squashed creativity. Also...I have been writing for the RP almost every day if that counts.


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 29, 2008)

I am having a horrible time coming up with a name for my new story. I've been working through relevant words to the feeling of the story, and trying to link the important ones together into something that works, but it just refuses to obey. Not fun.


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## Batman (Aug 29, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I know how I ended up with that problem. I kept thinking of classic revenge stories like the Count of Monte Cristo.( I think  I was watching Gankutsuou at the time) Really to be honest it was not at all a rip off of Code Geass. I was just being neurotic. The real problem is that I was forcing the plot again. if I did what I was planning to do I would have to move certain characters in directions they just weren't headed. I was rerouting things and ripping holes in the plot that didn't have to be there.
> 
> On another note, ever have a problem of developing characters too fast? I know characters develop at their own pace, but sometimes it's like your unconsciously forcing them out of sheer impatience. Like there's nothing happening in the plot for the character to move this way. Bah, its hard to explain.



Omg it's so irritating when they do that. You just want to tell them to slow down. Sometimes it happens right when I was having the most fun with them, or sometimes even before I got to use them much at all. But I just let em go, and try and kill them later. 



			
				Taurus Versant said:
			
		

> I am having a horrible time coming up with a name for my new story. I've been working through relevant words to the feeling of the story, and trying to link the important ones together into something that works, but it just refuses to obey. Not fun.


 I hate when that happens. But It will probably hit you at the most random time. At least that's how it usually works for me.



			
				neko-sennin said:
			
		

> Ah, funny you should mention dreams. Though they didn't play a very big role in the most recent selections of my writing, they tend to be an inspiration for a lot of what I write.


Us writers just can't avoid em. lol I give the more persistent dreams to some of my characters in hopes that some readers down the line can interpret them for me one of these days.

*Side Note:*
I think I upset my sister. I had her print out a copy of the manuscript for my second book for me, and she gave it to me with a book entitled "First Draft in 30 Days", I was wondering why she gave it to me when it I found one of my chapter titles highlighted and underlined in red.

Chapter titles is '<Character Name> Goes Apeshit', and my sister has a bunch of red frownie faces all over it, asking me what the hell. It was just a placement holder, and I totally forgot all about it. 

Now she's wondering what kind of crazy sex drugs and rock&roll book I'm writing for little kids.  Sigh, my big sis is getting old.

*Second Side Note:*
Congrats on quitting your annoying job, CTK. Having a a soul crushing work is always frustrating, I've been there so many times. I want to find a job like my cousin has where she get's paid to surf the internet.


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## Tyrael (Aug 29, 2008)

Any here know of the_ Legacy of Kain _games?

And do we think the whole huge multi-layered dimension is used too much?


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## Lord Yu (Aug 29, 2008)

I'm familiar with the games but never played them. I personally use multi-layered dimensions.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 29, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Any here know of the_ Legacy of Kain _games?
> 
> And do we think the whole huge multi-layered dimension is used too much?



Everyone says they are so great, but no one ever has them for me to play.


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## Tyrael (Aug 29, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm familiar with the games but never played them. I personally use multi-layered dimensions.





Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Everyone says they are so great, but no one ever has them for me to play.



LoK is the biggest pile of convoluted brilliance with awesome characterisation and no good/evil at all.

Would anybody be interested in reading the start of my new story?


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## Lord Yu (Aug 29, 2008)

Sure why not?


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## Tyrael (Aug 29, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Sure why not?



Cheers dude, not sure if I have seen you crit. anybodies work before in here.



> The pulsing giant mass of grey uniforms caved inwards. The disintegration of the forefront ranks spread anarchy through the rest of the army and the at best loosely organised troops became a mess of men shouting screaming and shooting.
> 
> The whole of the Termina Plane was alive with death. People swarmed, of uniforms and colours of varying alliance, and the sound of machine guns buzzed into the fiery storms that dominated the sky. The only symmetry that could be perceived was the way that the grey troops encircled the palace, almost an unbroken wall fending off the rage of tones around them. Until now.
> 
> ...


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## Lord Yu (Aug 29, 2008)

Interesting, but the flow seems quite broken and therefore its a confusing read. Might I also suggest making it simply Chaos Seal? As Chaos' Seal doesn't roll as well.


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## Tyrael (Aug 29, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Interesting, but the flow seems quite broken and therefore its a confusing read. Might I also suggest making it simply Chaos Seal? As Chaos' Seal doesn't roll as well.



Hmm, you mean the lack of real focus/direction or just the use of language? Either way cheers dude, I'll take a look at that. And Chaos' Seal/Chaos Seal; I'm unsure if I really want the sibilant disrupted or not.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 29, 2008)

I really was being a grammar nazi but the lack of scene focus is quite apparent.


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## Tyrael (Aug 29, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I really was being a grammar nazi but the lack of scene focus is quite apparent.



You reckon the lack of focus is something that is detrimental? I'll take a second look at the grammar though, on a second run through some of the phrasing does seem kinda off.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 29, 2008)

Even if you're trying to create a sense of confusion you need to create a hook.


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## Tyrael (Aug 29, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Even if you're trying to create a sense of confusion you need to create a hook.



Gotcha dude, cheers for the help.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 29, 2008)

On my end, I'm realizing my limitations with geographical terms.


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## Tyrael (Aug 29, 2008)

You mean real technical terms or the ability to describe landscapes?


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## Lord Yu (Aug 29, 2008)

To describe landscapes. Particularly mountains.


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## Tyrael (Aug 29, 2008)

It's probably easiest to to give it a vague description and let the readers fill in the gaps-often little can be more than a lot as it lets readers use their own imaginations to fill in the blanks. And everybody has picture immediately from just the word mountain, so it should be workable to be minimalistic on that front.

At least you don't talk about corries and eskers.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 29, 2008)

> Their charge took them up cliffs, leaping from outcrop to outcrop in a thrilling display. Eridaltia's breath froze in her lungs as the ride went up near vertical. The old man was  unshaken by the ascent giving the expression of a man out for a casual morning trot. Even with rain still spraying, his face was jovial.
> Soon signs of human hand started to appear.  Outposts leaning out over the faces, look outs standing with rifles and waving casually.



Stuff like this.


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## Tyrael (Aug 29, 2008)

Maybe try talking about the vegetation or texture of the surroundings or the sky, or maybe even the sensations of unevenness. Air becoming thin. Actual physical description does not need to be taken too far in my opinion.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 29, 2008)

My main want is to pinpoint the position of the lookout points.


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## Tyrael (Aug 29, 2008)

Well if you give yourself a platform to jump off of first and describe the land they are riding through you'll be able to describe how it changes when the lookout points appear and where about they are. A lot of description is in comparison to...so if you already have some description down it gets easier.

It's blatantly obvious I am just as bad, probably worse, than you at this isn't it?


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## .:Jason:. (Aug 29, 2008)

Hey, aspiring novelist here. I'm working on my first and I'm about 2 pages in. (Yes I know but I just began work on it.))  It's a mix of fantasy, romance, and action with a splash of adventure.


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## Chidoriblade (Aug 30, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> My main want is to pinpoint the position of the lookout points.



If that was your main point, I think you covered that very well. Like Tyrael said, readers tend to fill in the blanks on their own.



JasonKunxx said:


> Hey, aspiring novelist here. I'm working on my first and I'm about 2 pages in. (Yes I know but I just began work on it.))  It's a mix of fantasy, romance, and action with a splash of adventure.



Cool, I'm currently two pages into my ninth rewrite of the same story... Good luck to you.


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## Serp (Aug 30, 2008)

Guys I wrote myself into a corner. 2 of my main characters due to the evolution of their abilities technically makes them capable of winning any fight in my universe. So my problem is how do I cap their power without PIS, and come to think of it my 3rd char is also quite a beast


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## Tyrael (Aug 30, 2008)

Make the fights not about power-look at the Joker from _The Dark Knight_ as an example. Or have complications. Situations where power doesn't hold all value basically.


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## Pan-on (Aug 30, 2008)

Serp said:


> Guys I wrote myself into a corner. 2 of my main characters due to the evolution of their abilities technically makes them capable of winning any fight in my universe. So my problem is how do I cap their power without PIS, and come to think of it my 3rd char is also quite a beast



do the metriod thing, make them fall over and lose their powers or something


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## Serp (Aug 30, 2008)

I could try that make the battles my strategic. But in this world where magic dominates and these people have a very very very big unnatural edge, anyone who faces them in a one on one normal battle is very much fucked . One of my characters  as a deterrent, I was going to go with the whole extreme body fatigue trope, like blood from the nose/eyes, loss of balance etc etc.


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## Tyrael (Aug 30, 2008)

Serp said:


> I could try that make the battles my strategic. But in this world where magic dominates and these people have a very very very big unnatural edge, anyone who faces them in a one on one normal battle is very much fucked . One of my characters  as a deterrent, I was going to go with the whole extreme body fatigue trope, like blood from the nose/eyes, loss of balance etc etc.



You could always make them develop psychological problems that stop them from being able to harness that power, or simply never have a fight as simple as 1 vs 1.

I'll look up extreme body fatigue-damn I love that site.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 30, 2008)

I used to have that problem and a neat little device called balance. I have characters who can rip holes in space and time or create pocket dimensions yet still get owned by other characters.


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## Serp (Aug 30, 2008)

I don't think the extreme body fatigue is listed as that btw, thats just what I called it 

But take my character Vincent, He can cast spells without incantations(and prep), sounds basic enough but as explore it more and more it becomes more apparent that he has a dangerous ability.


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## Pan-on (Aug 30, 2008)

Serp said:


> I don't think the extreme body fatigue is listed as that btw, thats just what I called it
> 
> But take my character Vincent, He can cast spells without incantations(and prep), sounds basic enough but as explore it more and more it becomes more apparent that he has a dangerous ability.



restrict their MP


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## Lord Yu (Aug 30, 2008)

I have quite a few characters who can cast without incantation mostly deities. Also a few who can cast spells endlessly without limit yet still they can be beaten.


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## Tyrael (Aug 30, 2008)

Do I detect a hint of trolling about your posts Anon? 

You could kill off the chars Serp-no one would see it coming.


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## Serp (Aug 30, 2008)

Yes but in my world there are no deities or anything of the sort. Vincent can cast any spell as long as he has a vague idea of what it does and is supposed to look like. A spell that can take years of prep, sacrifices and 100s of monks to cast, he can create the exact same effect by himself. . 

I was thinking of killing him off, as his death would be a nice twist.


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## Tyrael (Aug 30, 2008)

I am thinking of writing a book that has characters introduced and killed off at a truly ridiculous pace. I mean what everyone says gantz in like.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 30, 2008)

In my story, Cyrus can cast spells endlessly, warp reality and can(and has) level(ed) continents.  Oh and top that off he can regenerate from practically anything. Yet there are still people who can beat him.


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## Pan-on (Aug 30, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Do I detect a hint of trolling about your posts Anon?
> 
> You could kill off the chars Serp-no one would see it coming.



well partially, it is a suggestion though, naruto has chakra, final fantasy has MP, perhaps he just needs a limiting factor


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## Lord Yu (Aug 30, 2008)

Some kind of magic canceling effect.


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## Tyrael (Aug 30, 2008)

Make him go one on one with someone from Glasgow, that should do the trick.


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## Serp (Aug 30, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> In my story, Cyrus can cast spells endlessly, warp reality and can(and has) level(ed) continents.  Oh and top that off he can regenerate from practically anything. Yet there are still people who can beat him.


 Yu you aren't helping, my point is there isn't people who could beat him apart from the 2 other mains. As long as he survives any spell can cast it back maybe even to a higher level.

I have a limiting factor but his abilities allows him to use alot less magic power for his spells. So against anyone with the same amount of magic power, he could cast faster, have a large repertoire of spells and out last his oppenent in stamina and magic power.


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## Tyrael (Aug 30, 2008)

There is always the anime way: introduce new power levels that render all but your three tanked chars redundant in combat. It's the DBZ way.


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## Serp (Aug 30, 2008)

Funny you should say that, as my 3 tanked chars (well 4 before I brutally tortured and murdered the 13 year old ) get their power from ancient demonic relics, I was thinking of some how bring the demons back and causing that shit storm.


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## Pan-on (Aug 30, 2008)

perhaps you should think about making your characters less powerful. I prefer naruto to most shonen simply because its not just people with better power levels being introduced all the time.

of course now the sharingan can do anything so its basically the same thing but fights are more entertaining when there are weaknesses to exploit.


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## Tyrael (Aug 30, 2008)

I say you make a crippling downside to drawing powers from that. Maybe that after a certain amount of time they lose all semblance of powers and abilities-or maybe even something more serious.

Like a magical disease that gives power in the short term but ultimately cripples the user.


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 30, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Make him go one on one with someone from Glasgow, that should do the trick.



This gets nominated for post of the month. Truly epic. 

In power restrictions, I'm having issues with my current story as well. It's a Bleach fanfiction, but the characters are mostly made by me. I've gotta keep their power at a good level, but still below high tier Canon characters. It's difficult. T_T


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## Serp (Aug 30, 2008)

But the difference is that naruto is an ongoing series, introducing strong characters is not a problem for me. 

Let me explain a little about the story and then this discussion can go smoother. 

approx 20,000 years ago those with great power and great magic ruled the earth, some call them angels, some demons. And then without warning they disappeared. All they left behind were a few strange stones scattered around the world, called lode stones. These Lode stones, even after the demons were gone held a connection to them. 

Now the thing about these lode stones is you find out they are even older than the demons/angels themselves. It is possible that they created and in turn destroyed the demons/angels. With a human sacrifice and a bond of blood to the stone, the creator of the pact would gain an essence, the essence granted them power that was lost with the fall of the demons, and is over time slowly changing them.

So their haxxed powers are basically demonic magic so everyone else who is using human magic is gonna get fucked anally .


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## Tyrael (Aug 30, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> This gets nominated for post of the month. Truly epic.
> 
> In power restrictions, I'm having issues with my current story as well. It's a Bleach fanfiction, but the characters are mostly made by me. I've gotta keep their power at a good level, but still below high tier Canon characters. It's difficult. T_T



Why thank you.

I have a taste for making my hero constantly lose, and avoid combat altogether. I feel that books are a better medium for action of a less immediate nature.

Serp: My suggestion is that you make the power a curse/weakness itself and have the stones bearing the curse. Or bring back demons. Demons are cool.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 30, 2008)

I skew toward powerful people with damaged minds.


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## Tyrael (Aug 30, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I skew toward powerful people with damaged minds.



I thought you were a fan of everyone being mentally misarranged Yu.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 30, 2008)

True true...


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## Taurus Versant (Aug 30, 2008)

I'm lucky with my next story, that there are only two consistent main characters. One strong, one not. It'll be easier to deal with, I'm sure.


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## Serp (Aug 30, 2008)

By adding a certain level of unambiguity, I was thinking of turning the users of the stones into demons, like the people using the stones are vessels for the resurrection of the demons like a continuous cycle, or just simply demons.  Well I was planning something fucked up with the lodestones I'm just unsure what exactly.


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## Pan-on (Aug 30, 2008)

Serp said:


> But the difference is that naruto is an ongoing series, introducing strong characters is not a problem for me.
> 
> Let me explain a little about the story and then this discussion can go smoother.
> 
> ...



you misunderstood my reference to naruto, what I meant was in say dragonball Z the characters are pretty much only differentiated by their power levels and not differences in thier abilities.

your story sounds a bit like 666 satan


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## Serp (Aug 30, 2008)

your right it does sound like like 666 satan at first glance, but my story focuses on magic and not the demons themselves as in 666 satan the demons were main characters. I see the under ground mechanics a bit more like code geass, in the way that geass is given, an ancient power of ambiguous origin given to the main characters and later it turns out to be much more complex than at first thought.


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## Pan-on (Aug 30, 2008)

All this talk of writing makes me want to write...perhaps I shall.


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## Tyrael (Aug 30, 2008)

Anonx said:


> All this talk of writing makes me want to write...perhaps I shall.



Do it, something good might come of it.


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## Pan-on (Aug 30, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Do it, something good might come of it.



i will, im feeling all literary drinking tea from the harry potter mug i found


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## Serp (Aug 30, 2008)

Its all about teh MAGIC


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## Pan-on (Aug 30, 2008)

Serp said:


> Its all about teh MAGIC



its funny theres a picture of hagrid on one side which is supposed to only appear when theres hot tea in the mug but it seems to be peeling off making it quite the design flaw.


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## Tyrael (Aug 30, 2008)

Harry Potter eh? Ain't you the highbrow one?


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## Pan-on (Aug 30, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Harry Potter eh? Ain't you the highbrow one?



i flick my pinkey out when i drink


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## .:Jason:. (Aug 30, 2008)

Serp kill off your characters one by one...that'd help.


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## Serp (Aug 30, 2008)

Im only killing the male characters


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## Lord Yu (Aug 30, 2008)

I like to take the Tomino/Martin perspective.


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## Tyrael (Aug 30, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I like to take the Tomino/Martin perspective.



*Misses the reference*


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## Lord Yu (Aug 30, 2008)

Slowpoke is slowww. I was sure  the Martin part my snare.


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## Pan-on (Aug 30, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Slowpoke is slowww. I was sure  the Martin part my snare.



you mean kill anyone at anytime anyplace


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## Lord Yu (Aug 30, 2008)

Yes, and the Tomino part is for the creator of Gundam who had the nickname of Kill em all Tomino.


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## Tyrael (Aug 30, 2008)

Yeah I get the Martin reference now.

And just watched the first ep. of Code Geass. There is something so ridiculously OTT villainous about the empire that I have trouble taking seriously.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 30, 2008)

ALL HAIL BRITTANIA!

Over-the-topness is part of the fun.


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## neko-sennin (Aug 31, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The thing is I write more when in school than when out it seems...work was kind of keeping me from having ideas. It squashed creativity. Also...I have been writing for the RP almost every day if that counts.



It may not accomplish anything specific, but it still counts. The act of writing itself, especially anything focused in a creative manner, still sharpens your skills, and will come in handy when you roll up your sleeves to do something serious later on.



Taurus Versant said:


> I am having a horrible time coming up with a name for my new story. I've been working through relevant words to the feeling of the story, and trying to link the important ones together into something that works, but it just refuses to obey. Not fun.



Hmm, while I've never had any trouble with story titles, I have my own difficulties with other names. About the only approach that's ever worked for me was to go do something else, and when the name is good and ready, it pops into my head fully formed. Or sometimes, my other, unrelated activities will somehow turn up a clue that leads me in the right direction.



Lord Yu said:


> To describe landscapes. Particularly mountains.



I'm not sure if I'm one to talk, since city life is still relatively new to me, having lived most of my life in varying degrees of Nowhere, especially mountains and wastelands. And because I enjoy the outdoors, I seem to have a natural affinity for describing it. My advice would be to keep terrain details as minimal as you can get away with, and let the reader's imagination fill in the gaps. I would also focus on other aspects, such as weather and atmosphere, mood, individual characters' impressions, and strategic points of an area. Another approach might be relative (right, left), compass, or clock (12 o'clock front, 6 o'clock rear) directions for reference.

Also, try watching videos and imagining yourself in different environments. Or finding authors whose descriptions of scenery piques your interest. For example, Tony Hillerman's novels include literal and poetic descriptions of the American Southwest that are easy to visualize even if you've never been to the desert. Robert Jordan's good at doing this with all sorts of climates and terrain.



Serp said:


> I could try that make the battles my strategic. But in this world where magic dominates and these people have a very very very big unnatural edge, anyone who faces them in a one on one normal battle is very much fucked . One of my characters  as a deterrent, I was going to go with the whole extreme body fatigue trope, like blood from the nose/eyes, loss of balance etc etc.



That might work. Nothing's free, and often the greatest powers and feats take their toll on the user, whether it's physical, mental or spiritual. The one problem with having characters with god-like powers is that they're hard to defeat, or even challenge, without either a blatantly exploitable Achilles Heel, or else a Deus Ex plot twist. As others have mentioned, one thing I've respected about Naruto throughout much of the series was the fact that strategy was a powerful enough factor to turn the tables against technically "stronger" characters, allowing for a level of tension even what at first seems like a very one-sided confrontation. That, and even bijuu and curse seal powers, even the almighty Mangekyou, come at their own cost to the user.



Lord Yu said:


> Some kind of magic canceling effect.



That's another excellent, though seldom used, idea. In the Suikoden series, there's a Water Rune spell called Silent Lake, that cancels out all magic for 3 rounds. It's a double-edge sword in that also prevents you from using magic as well, but if your party kicks enough ass at melee, then it can really turn the tables on powerful magic-using enemies.



Anonx said:


> perhaps you should think about making your characters less powerful. I prefer naruto to most shonen simply because its not just people with better power levels being introduced all the time.



It's probably too late for Serp to do that. Probably. Though in my case, I also had a character in Tradewinds who ended up both ridiculously over-powered, and often subject to Plot no Jutsu in later stories, so when I went back to the beginning, I simply did away with 90% of those powers, and it worked beautifully, allowing him to develop into a more resourceful, unorthodox character.



Serp said:


> By adding a certain level of unambiguity, I was thinking of turning the users of the stones into demons, like the people using the stones are vessels for the resurrection of the demons like a continuous cycle, or just simply demons.  Well I was planning something fucked up with the lodestones I'm just unsure what exactly.



That could be the "price" the user pays right there. Perhaps a gradual loss of control, "possession" Saving Throws, or perhaps even a window into what happened to the original "angels" and "demons" in the past. Or perhaps the emergence of characters with "angel" artifacts bound to them as an equal but opposite force. What might make the story more interesting is if the Angel/Demon thing was more a balance of Chaotic vs Lawful than the oh-so-cliche Good vs Evil motif.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 31, 2008)

I've been hiking and I've attended good schools. My problem is since then I've had a continuous brain drain affect. Also my brain is stuck in the forest.


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## Boromir (Sep 2, 2008)

Just finished the first part of my most ambitious project, with 205 pages.
All i need before submitting it to several re-checks and friends for opinions, is a title.

Deals a lot with angst, psychology, character development...
I'll be making a full list of the themes soon.


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## neko-sennin (Sep 2, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I've been hiking and I've attended good schools. My problem is since then I've had a continuous brain drain affect. Also my brain is stuck in the forest.



Sounds like you're dealing with an even trickier problem than I thought. I'm afraid I'm not sure how to deal with that one.



konohamaster said:


> Just finished the first part of my most ambitious project, with 205 pages.
> All i need before submitting it to several re-checks and friends for opinions, is a title.
> 
> Deals a lot with angst, psychology, character development...
> I'll be making a full list of the themes soon.



Feel free to post a synopsis, excerpts, whatever you feel comfortable with, and we'll try to help you with the title. You might even find someone willing to critique it.

Also, while I was researching some stuff, I stumbled across a couple sites that might be of interest:



a blog article on the differences between "real" dialogue and fictional/theatrical dialogue, and why



The Reality of Running Away From Stuff gives a chart of the fastest human speeds (running, swimming, etc) compared to animals, vehicles, events and other hazards characters often encounter in fiction, for those seeking to add a measure of realism to their stories, conveniently converted into meters per second.



With the improbable name of Ficwad, this site hosts both original and fan fiction. It's a good deal more user-friendly than Fictionpress, including fewer restrictions, even an "NC-17" category, and an interesting rating system. Membership is easy, with no screwy waiting periods-- I've already posted the first two chapters of Tradewinds there. Feel free to check it out if you're looking to broaden your range of venues.


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## Batman (Sep 3, 2008)

I'm very tired of this part of the process. I'm finding myself writing 2-3 essays everyday and pouring over book after book. But I still haven't found what I'm looking for.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 3, 2008)

So I've decided to fiddle with wide eyed optimistic boy archetype.


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## Batman (Sep 3, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> So I've decided to fiddle with wide eyed optimistic boy archetype.



I thought you were suppose to write about what you know?  Why do I get the feeling you're going to make him dance among the flames of your cruel imagination?


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## Lord Yu (Sep 3, 2008)

I was an optimist once.  But it'll bring full perspective to my story.


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## Tyrael (Sep 3, 2008)

If there is no happiness/optimism in a story how can you take the darker parts seriously?


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## Lord Yu (Sep 3, 2008)

And in someways that's what he's there for.


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## Tyrael (Sep 4, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> And in someways that's what he's there for.



The token optimist? They might as well be considered a minorities I guess.


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## Taurus Versant (Sep 4, 2008)

I've had a bit of a breakthrough with my story title.

I wanted to highlight the sword aspect of it, cause that's the pivotal plot piece. And I wanted to include the motivation for the sword's existence and why it drives the plot, which is the desire for freedom.

One character wants freedom *of* the sword.

One wants freedom *by* the sword.

One wants freedom *in* the sword.

So I figure that if I can pick a good word that reads as of, by and in, it'll be Freedom ___ the Sword.

Now I just need a good word. I'm thinking from, but that's not concrete. Advice?


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## Tyrael (Sep 4, 2008)

Freedom by the Blade has a nice ring.

For a missing word I would have to say, though, that "moves" might sound alright, or some other word suggesting activation of propulsion.


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## Taurus Versant (Sep 4, 2008)

Not quite, I'm afraid.

Elise is the one cursed with the sword. She wants nothing more than to get rid of it. Hers is Freedom of the Sword/Blade (now I need to pick one of those words as well ).

I really do want a title that encompasses all three points.


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## Tyrael (Sep 4, 2008)

All three will be a huge undertaking but...how about "motivates"?


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## Serp (Sep 4, 2008)

"Freedom, Gift of the sword"
"Freedom, Granted by the sword"
"Freedom drives the sword"
"Freedom lives in the sword"
"Freedom controls the sword."
"Freedom owns the sword"
"Freedom masters the sword"
"Freedom, Way of the sword"
"Freedom follows the sword"


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## Taurus Versant (Sep 4, 2008)

See, those are all words with a lot more meaning to it than I planned.

What I really wanted was a nice simple bridge word, just like of, by and in, but one that can be taken in those three different ways.


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## Tyrael (Sep 4, 2008)

Go with your instinct on this one.

My final suggestion: "Freedom, the sword."


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## Serp (Sep 4, 2008)

I agree with Tyrael with this.


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## Taurus Versant (Sep 4, 2008)

*goes off to ponder some*


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## Serp (Sep 4, 2008)

One last suggestion. "Freedom with the sword" in my mind it represents all those meanings without thinking too hard about it.


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## Taurus Versant (Sep 4, 2008)

Nah, voids of the sword. With is probably the opposite of getting rid of.


----------



## Uzimaki_Jinsei (Sep 4, 2008)

great to see so many people on here interested in literature and writing, im also writing a novel in the horror genre am about 140 pages in and having fun bringing my charcters to life. I am a game design graduate and have spent most of my time design game documents and character development documents. 

sometimes i get periods of writers block but that soon passes after a couple of days.

anyone else prefer writing in the night when everyone else is asleep?


----------



## Uzimaki_Jinsei (Sep 4, 2008)

with your title idea Taurus Versant i believe that these might be of interest:

freedom *through* the sword = this will give the desired affect i between as you can take it all three contexts. it makes the object central to the sentence witout calling upon a specific state.

freedom *vs *the sword = this does not mean against the sword but taken in the latin contest to confront. this could mean that at any point within the journey the sword has played a central role.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 4, 2008)

Serp said:


> "Freedom, Gift of the sword"
> "Freedom, Granted by the sword"
> "Freedom drives the sword"
> "Freedom lives in the sword"
> ...


I like Freedom By The Sword. However this would make an epic opening.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 4, 2008)

Smilie included?


----------



## Serp (Sep 4, 2008)

OMG Yu is actually saying Ive done something positive, and here I thought he didn't like me.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 4, 2008)

I can finally see the end of the first part of my story.


----------



## Serp (Sep 5, 2008)

And once again, I am back in my hole  

I guess Ill just do some more writing


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 5, 2008)

I've decided to stick with Freedom from the Sword. But thanks for the advice guys.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 5, 2008)

I think the fact that I had absolutely no idea where my story was going is what kept me writing. Now that I know where it's going I'm stumped.


----------



## Daedus (Sep 5, 2008)

Keeping it vague and lucid 'til the end, eh?  I actually understand where you're coming from.  Premeditated structure robs my work of most of its breathing room.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 5, 2008)

Daedus_Deminine said:


> Keeping it *vague *and *lucid* 'til the end, eh?  I actually understand where you're coming from.  Premeditated structure robs my work of most of its breathing room.



Wait, isn't that a bit of a contradiction?


----------



## Daedus (Sep 5, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Wait, isn't that a bit of a contradiction?



Wow, that was fantastically stupid of me. I meant *lurid*.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 5, 2008)

Ah, fair enough. I can't actually write with any strict structure, whenever I try it all reverts to chaos very quickly, probably for the best.


----------



## Chee (Sep 7, 2008)

I'm gonna try and do it without much structure. Every time I try to organize it, it just falls apart on me.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 7, 2008)

Chee said:


> I'm gonna try and do it without much structure. Every time I try to organize it, it just falls apart on me.



Try joining our RP, lots of writing involved there.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 7, 2008)

Admittedly it is helping me with structure oddly, by helping me see of how loose it could be. That said, as writing exercise go it's a pretty bad one.


----------



## Batman (Sep 8, 2008)

Brainstorming and researching takes too long. I won't be able to write this story for about a year.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 8, 2008)

Huh? Do you have to have a really detailed outline first or what?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 8, 2008)

Well as of this morning I have decided to reboot my story...it needs it. And I am thinking about making things darker this time, if that's possible


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 8, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well as of this morning I have decided to reboot my story...it needs it. And I am thinking about making things darker this time, if that's possible



As in right from the start?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 8, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> As in right from the start?



Well I will rewrite everything except for the Madeleine and Dee stories, things that I wrote like that will still fit, in fact it will be structured around them. But I had some ideas to make the story much darker...

For one, some of the restrictions I placed on the characters will be gone. All of the things I tried to avoid before or keep out of certain people I will start doing. I realized that even in a story people won't mind characters with more flaws. And a flaw has to be more than someone who doesn't know when to give up. 

We're talking marital problems, drug abuse, possible infidelity, other stuff that deals more with the nature of the story. One big change is witchcraft...before none of my characters with the exception of the Witch Pellegri would touch it. 

Now its fair game for most of them...


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

Batman said:


> Brainstorming and researching takes too long. I won't be able to write this story for about a year.



I should probably do some actual research for my story. The magical limits of my bullshitting can only go so far.


----------



## Batman (Sep 8, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Huh? Do you have to have a really detailed outline first or what?



Not yet. I'm building up a catalog of 'stuff' right now. Developing details, characters, locations, connections, etc. etc. Then I'll think about the actual story and sit down and write the outline. It's just taking a long ass time.



			
				Lord Yu said:
			
		

> I should probably do some actual research for my story. The magical limits of my bullshitting can only go so far.



LoL. Outside the classroom the bsing has many limits.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

So far my BSing has had a disturbing accuracy.


----------



## Batman (Sep 8, 2008)

Mine just sounds good and is about as accurate as a skinny santa. Hence all the research.


----------



## Garfield (Sep 8, 2008)

Yeeeha.
Mine requires almost no research since everything is made up in my fantasy...hence probably why it sounds lame >_>


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

I think over tiny details at length. Using my decent understanding of culture, science, economy and my scant understanding of political motives.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 8, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Well I will rewrite everything except for the Madeleine and Dee stories, things that I wrote like that will still fit, in fact it will be structured around them. But I had some ideas to make the story much darker...
> 
> For one, some of the restrictions I placed on the characters will be gone. All of the things I tried to avoid before or keep out of certain people I will start doing. I realized that even in a story people won't mind characters with more flaws. And a flaw has to be more than someone who doesn't know when to give up.
> 
> ...



Flaws are the one weapon we have against Mary-Sues, and I'm not sure that you should go back and rewrite them, until you have definite fixed point where you want them to be. If you go back and redo it all you'll find it evolves as you do parts you had never before until eventually you have to go back and rewrite again. Keep going until your finished and then rewrite is my advice, lest you get stuck in a cyclic and debilitating routine.



Lord Yu said:


> I should probably do some actual research for my story. The magical limits of my bullshitting can only go so far.



I only research if what I am research is one of the main themes/topics of the story. If it isn't then I just take whatever liberties I feel the story needs-it's not meant to be realistic.



Batman said:


> Not yet. I'm building up a catalog of 'stuff' right now. Developing details, characters, locations, connections, etc. etc. Then I'll think about the actual story and sit down and write the outline. It's just taking a long ass time.
> 
> LoL. Outside the classroom the bsing has many limits.



I come up with a start an end and write from their. It all too often gets very messy and complex, but I reckon these are just innate characteristics of my writing so role with it. My protagonists often evolve flaws with a startling suddenness.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

My biggest problem is making a Japan similar country and I don't even speak Japanese. I personally think I've done quite well. But who's really to say?


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 8, 2008)

The key is to have a target audience who know little, beyond stereotypes, about Japan.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

In other words weaboos. But in all seriousness. I've actually tried to maintain a level accuracy and taking liberties with a few things here and there because it's my fantasy world and it would be stupid just to imitate real places. I do have a limited understanding of the language and a much greater understanding of the culture then the average weaboo and I have so far come up with character names that have actual meaning. Also hidden concepts that actually are relevant to Japan such as the Hanakotoba. ( The Japanese language of flowers) I also have a kanji book. Some names I have pulled from historical figures (As if they are relevant to the character usually not) and such. So maybe I have done a little lackadaisical research. But most of it is gathered from research and mild intellectual amusement from years before. I want my novel to not only resonate with the ignorant but ignite that little esoteric giggle from those who actually know what I'm referring too.


----------



## Batman (Sep 8, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I come up with a start an end and write from their. It all too often gets very messy and complex, but I reckon these are just innate characteristics of my writing so role with it. My protagonists often evolve flaws with a startling suddenness.



Thats about what I did with my first series, except I had a rough outline of the entire plot and some details of characters that were necessary, but I'm finding now that it wasn't enough. I spent too much time wondering what I was going to do with a scene (in a bad way) so I want to try and do something a bit more organized. So I'm really going to flesh this one out to the last detail and see if I can make it happen.



			
				Lord Yu said:
			
		

> In other words weaboos. But in all seriousness. I've actually tried to maintain a level accuracy and taking liberties with a few things here and there because it's my fantasy world and it would be stupid just to imitate real places. I do have a limited understanding of the language and a much greater understanding of the culture then the average weaboo and I have so far come up with character names that have actual meaning. Also hidden concepts that actually are relevant to Japan such as the Hanakotoba. ( The Japanese language of flowers) I also have a kanji book. Some names I have pulled from historical figures (As if they are relevant to the character usually not) and such. So maybe I have done a little lackadaisical research. But most of it is gathered from research and mild intellectual amusement from years before. I want my novel to not only resonate with the ignorant but ignite that little esoteric giggle from those who actually know what I'm referring too.


 Seems to me that you have done some research, its just not written down.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

Yeah true, but my most theoretically built subjects are political and economic science.


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

Ahh research, TBH sometimes I find this part more exciting than writing the story, as most of the stuff I find out/look up never makes it to page.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

I find alot of the stuff I've researched practical.


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

I find it extremely useful, but I cannot just write it in, I have to apply the knowledge. Like the fact wolves have webbed feet  I can't write that down raw in the story, but I can use that fact to alter how things might go about, and people with the right information would catch on.  If that made any sense.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

My research usually has an effect on character mannerisms and clothing. What flower might be on a kimono or what way one might greet someone.


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

Exactly, but the whole fruit of you labour researching it seems to be lost, if you research 10 pages of information, 1 page is written in directly, while the other 9 are added behind the scenes.

 I know what I mean, I'm just having problems putting it into words.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

My research is generally cultural and allows me to only craft the semi fictional states but the wholly fictional countries and cultures. This shapes character actions and speech greatly.


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

Yes, but what I'm saying is that all your research may not actually be recognized and your effort downplayed. As for some things you don't spell it out its more subtle. 

 I think i'll stop now actually.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

The goal of researching for fiction is to not look stupid and not to be acknowledged as a great researcher. I research and theorize so that my world can be that much more believable.


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

I know, I know its obvious I am not explaining my point well enough.


----------



## Batman (Sep 8, 2008)

Serp said:


> I find it extremely useful, but I cannot just write it in, I have to apply the knowledge. Like the fact wolves have webbed feet  I can't write that down raw in the story, but I can use that fact to alter how things might go about, and people with the right information would catch on.  If that made any sense.



This is exactly how I feel. So much effort that isn't directly shown for what it is. Most of the research is just to help me as a writer so I can keep things clear in my head, but its rare that a spare fact will makes its way into the actual take. It's like trying the funnel a lake into a jar.


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

Batman said:


> This is exactly how I feel. So much effort that isn't directly shown for what it is. Most of the research is just to help me as a writer so I can keep things clear in my head, but its rare that a spare fact will makes its way into the actual take. It's like trying the funnel a lake into a jar.



Yes this exactly.  
Often I feel that I did all that work so it should be put to use, and thus leads to confusing over worked parts. So the way I combat it is, creating more stories withing that universe, whether it be short stories of full novels, but based on the information I have already gathered. Or I just write it down in a reference guide, granted almost noone will see it, but I make it easy to read and enjoyable, like a databook. Just to make it seem that my work has not gone to waste.


----------



## Batman (Sep 8, 2008)

Serp said:


> Yes this exactly.
> Often I feel that I did all that work so it should be put it, and thus leads to confusing over worked parts. So the way I combat it is, creating more stories withing that universe, whether it be short stories of full novels, but based on the information I have already gathered. Or I just write it down in a reference guide, granted almost noone will see it, but I make it easy to read and enjoyable, like a databook. Just to make it seem that my work has not gone to waste.



lol I do the same!! XD I have sooo many an unseen data books. Character profiles, statistics. Small stories. There's just no stopping it. It makes the world feel fleshed out, you know. 

And when I get a chance to use one of the spare stories or tales I've written its a great feeling. :amazed


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 8, 2008)

I was going to put an appendix at the end of CA because I never got round to explain that universe's version of the string theory. I can just smell the boredom already.

Doing extra stories from a certain universe is a good way to mix it up and keep yourself interested I really don't like it when a person puts their research in a glass cabinet and mounts it halfway through narrative (Deaver, Fleming, etc...).


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

Batman said:


> lol I do the same!! XD I have sooo many an unseen data books. Character profiles, statistics. Small stories. There's just no stopping it. It makes the world feel fleshed out, you know.
> 
> And when I get a chance to use one of the spare stories or tales I've written its a great feeling. :amazed



But one thing I have found myself doing is researching and creating a full universe with laws and all that shit and then adding a storyline for a novel. Using this method, I can fit many many novels in the same universe, explore different things I have used to different extremes, by judging when and where in said universe I base the story. 

Like my Lost Magicks universe although the setting in the 18th century for the "Blood in the Stone" series, is also the setting for the "Hidden Spirits" set in the 34th century. But little easter eggs for those who know my works will pop up, and basic mechanics are the same. 

 And then I find myself writing the whole timeline between those two dates, and how they are connected. And then the center characters in the tmeline, get fleshed out and mostly likely find themself in a novel of their own.

Another example is my nomeD universe, based on Demons. It holds 4 series using the same information on demons to fuels its sub plots.

Lykos Anthropos: Over the periods of 200BC-2012 AD in France and then later Iran and then ending up in all over the modern world. Focusing on werewolves and their biology and humanity. As well as its own plot of course.

nomeD Worship: Around the early to late medieval stages, set in England and Germany. Focusing on how demons come to be and evolve as well as a touching on the biology. Also with its own plot.

Sins of the Unknown Father: Stretches between early 1900s to present day. This shows about demon lineage and how the inherited their abilities. Also with its own plot

VAC: Set over late 1950-2020AD shows information about different demon species and also how they evolve and about the Humanity side of  it. As well as touching on the demonlords and the first demons.

 I get carried away.


----------



## Batman (Sep 8, 2008)

Ty said:
			
		

> I was going to put an appendix at the end of CA because I never got round to explain that universe's version of the string theory. I can just smell the boredom already.
> 
> Doing extra stories from a certain universe is a good way to mix it up and keep yourself interested I really don't like it when a person puts their research in a glass cabinet and mounts it halfway through narrative (Deaver, Fleming, etc...).


I'll add Susanna Clarke to that list with her darn footnotes.  I can't really see myself doing an appendix myself either, no matter how much I might want to put it in, I know that for the majority of the people it would just be skimming pages. I hardly read the Authors notes either, where they tell you the history behind their works. 



Serp said:


> But one thing I have found myself doing is researching and creating a full universe with laws and all that shit and then adding a storyline for a novel. Using this method, I can fit many many novels in the same universe, explore different things I have used to different extremes, by judging when and where in said universe I base the story.
> 
> Like my Lost Magicks universe although the setting in the 18th century for the "Blood in the Stone" series, is also the setting for the "Hidden Spirits" set in the 34th century. But little easter eggs for those who know my works will pop up, and basic mechanics are the same.
> 
> And then I find myself writing the whole timeline between those two dates, and how they are connected. And then the center characters in the tmeline, get fleshed out and mostly likely find themself in a novel of their own. . .  _'SNICK'_ . . .



Yes - I do the same thing. The time lines!  In the past I tended to write out the logistics of what came before, and put my story after wards, but now I'm doing something similar to what you're doing. I'm writing the entire time line, and looking for a spot along it where the best story could evolve from. Though I doubt that I'll end up pulling more than one work from the time line that isn't 'sequential' or related in a more direct way to a previous. Writing about a time much earlier and then writing about a time much later with influences of the stories you've already written strikes me as a bit tough.

I'm actually having real trouble with religion Cultures for the most part are not without it, and I'm a bit indecisive on what to do with it at the moment. Sure I could go with the whole Christianity vs. Paganism  or go with the old standard and make something up  . . . but I'm still not sure. The familiarity of it all seems over used to the point of tedium.

Laws and the political aspect on the other hand are a lot of fun. Some of the best characters just seem to spawn from how they manipulate and/or skirt the laws. Not to mention those who uphold the laws no matter how stupid they end up looking.


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

It is tough but my slight OCD makes me do this, as I hate plot holes with a passion, I elaborate everything to make it all fit, and maybe another story stems from that and then it all gets crazy from there.  Having so much back story and wasting it also affects me greatly, I need to stop this, Like once I read a word wrong and then by the end of the day I had built a full story around it.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 8, 2008)

The James Bond books are the worst for it though-the _Diamonds are Forever_ had a lull period in the story where he spent three chapters needlessly explaining the terminology and mechanics of horse racing and gambling. Maybe if it was to do with how the gangsters messed about with the system and corrupted it it might have been justified-but you'd have to take a fair few liberties to claim that.

And I don't have a timeline for my current project, because the whole of history is obscured. I worry more about characters and themes and symbolism than any sort of completeness: so basically I spend my time being pretentious. Ironic, considering I'm a fantasy reader first and foremost. Not sure if I could call myself a fantasy writer though. So by the sounds of it I do thinks the other way round from you two.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

Since my interests lies in cultural and the arts. I have great detail in my cultural plannings such as inherited influences on language. Like such and such country invaded this several hundred years ago and brought their cultural traditions and whatnot but the original people still maintained some of their own. I've already mentioned the stuff about I made up a language. Its been kind of hard weighing the affects of an immortal ruler on a land.
I don't go on in great lengths about things. I just casually weave them in the story.
Man I should start taking more notes. I have way too much stuff memorized.


----------



## Batman (Sep 8, 2008)

@Serp
lmao Well I'm not that bad. But I do hate loose ends, and I hate when characters are used without purpose, like they're the roman soldier only there to make an announcement and disappear. That's why I really want to do a detailed outline this time. I'm betting (hoping) that it will make things go smoother.

I'd like to think that the backstory will come in handy one day when people are really interested in my story, and thus interested in the backstory. So I keep telling myself that its not a waste of time cause soon I'm going to have to explain a lot of things to people. *crosses fingers*



			
				Lord Yu said:
			
		

> Since my interests lies in cultural and the arts. I have great detail in my cultural plannings such as inherited influences on language. Like such and such country invaded this several hundred years ago and brought their cultural traditions and whatnot but the original people still maintained some of their own. I've already mentioned the stuff about I made up a language. Its been kind of hard weighing the affects of an immortal ruler on a land.
> I don't go on in great lengths about things. I just casually weave them in the story.
> Man I should start taking more notes. I have way too much stuff memorized.


 I tried my hand at making up a language, but I don't have the patience for it. I do write a surprising amount of music for my works, though.


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

TY said:
			
		

> And I don't have a timeline for my current project, because the whole of history is obscured. I worry more about characters and themes and symbolism than any sort of completeness:


Ah but the things are interconnected, as I have found, like a character actions are based on his experiences, hence his past, etc etc. Themes have to stem from somewhere 
But with me is I do it in this order. I create the characters, then basic plot, then I finish the mechanics and then edit the characters and themes to fit together. I know my way is far-fetched but it helps me keep track of everything, knowing that it is all connected like a spider web. Like the butterfly effect  change one thing, change everything 



			
				Bat said:
			
		

> I'd like to think that the backstory will come in handy one day when people are really interested in my story, and thus interested in the backstory. So I keep telling myself that its not a waste of time cause soon I'm going to have to explain a lot of things to people. *crosses fingers*


Same here  and its fun to look over it again after you forgot what the original draft you had done was and enjoy it.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

> “You know the Aurican language is just a bastardization of ours right? It's really a mongrel mix of ours and that of Old Anezaie. A dash of some barbarian language I dun remember. But the main body comes from Old Anezaie and our own Deyul. Have ya heard the Old Anezaie language? Nothing like this new one they got. Everythin is different it's written form. The spoken form was a lot more aggressive. Almost makes ya sound angry all the time.  ”



This is how I  squeeze things in.  The rambling of characters like this.


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> This is how squeeze things in.  The rambling of characters like this.



 Brilliant, its like how Shonens do it, they get a rookie character so during the course of the story when things are explained to them, the reader can also catch on, without making the story so simple or explaining it in a way that the reader feels dumb.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

It's not like Shounen. That character is just an old man who likes to ramble at length about history.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 8, 2008)

Serp said:


> Ah but the things are interconnected, as I have found, like a character actions are based on his experiences, hence his past, etc etc. Themes have to stem from somewhere
> But with me is I do it in this order. I create the characters, then basic plot, then I finish the mechanics and then edit the characters and themes to fit together. I know my way is far-fetched but it helps me keep track of everything, knowing that it is all connected like a spider web. Like the butterfly effect  change one thing, change everything
> 
> 
> Same here  and its fun to look over it again after you forgot what the original draft you had done was and enjoy it.



I wouldn't say that is expanding your world if it is directly related to the story; I tend to define it with things like that as extraneous details to make the world more real as opposed to aiding the plot.

I'm becoming more and more hesitant in giving characters any sort of tragic back story, as I feel that line is over done. It also feels good to imagining that the back story is happening in front of you, as opposed to through some piece of vague exposition.

The shonen comparison hit a nerve then Yu?


----------



## Chee (Sep 8, 2008)

Batman said:


> Brainstorming and researching takes too long. I won't be able to write this story for about a year.



Don't you write the story out and research later?

Like a rough draft and then edit.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

As for other paths of the story I have more active and subtle discovery of the world's culture.


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> It's not like Shounen. That character is just an old man who likes to ramble at length about history.



I wasn't comparing it to shonens, I said your idea was brilliant and then stated how the shonens do it instead. Calm down and if I accidentally hit a nerve I am sorry.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 8, 2008)

Chee said:


> Don't you write the story out and research later?
> 
> Like a rough draft and then edit.



Haha, so the research is all completely extraneous?

Well, I do half of that technique: just never get round to the damn research.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

Serp said:


> I wasn't comparing it to shonens, I said your idea was brilliant and then stated how the shonens do it instead. Calm down and if I accidentally hit a nerve I am sorry.



You didn't. I was just explaining.


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

Oh ok, Is it me or does Yu always seem slightly angry :/


----------



## Batman (Sep 8, 2008)

Chee said:


> Don't you write the story out and research later?
> 
> Like a rough draft and then edit.



It depends on what I'm working on really. Considering what I'm trying to accomplish with this work, I have a gut feeling that I'd better have some serious weight behind it. So the research has to come first. Then outline then rough draft, like a term paper.



			
				Yu said:
			
		

> Oh ok, Is it me or does Yu always seem slight angry :/


 I thought Yu was always angry.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

Misanthropy is my creed.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 8, 2008)

Surely Yu is just failing to articulate his innate and undying love for all fellow humans?



Lord Yu said:


> Misanthropy is my creed.



*Reaches for a dictionary*

So basically what I said, yeah?


----------



## Chee (Sep 8, 2008)

Serp said:


> Oh ok, Is it me or does Yu always seem slightly angry :/



You just realised this? 

 

Kidding.


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

I hate humans as well,  but it seems like I'm always pissing you off  or your just generally in a bad mood.



> Surely Yu is just failing to articulate his innate and undying love for all fellow humans?
> *Reaches for a dictionary*


The reason this is funny is cos you practically define misanthropy then go for the dictionary


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 8, 2008)

Humans aren't so bad. And I should know, I reckon I have met at least two.


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

Humans are terrible terrible creatures, hence the whole theme of my werewolf novel is anthropology and misanthropy


----------



## Batman (Sep 8, 2008)

What's the old adage? Never tickle a serial killer behind the ear? ?


Applicable? 



> anthropology and misanthropy


*searches for dictionary while feeling slightly slow*


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 8, 2008)

Batman said:


> What's the old adage? Never tickle a serial killer behind the ear? ?
> 
> 
> Applicable?
> ...



It's: never shat on the rug of a man with a gun for a hand.

Yeah.


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

It feels bad yet good when people have to look up the name of my university course


----------



## Batman (Sep 8, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> It's: never shat on the rug of a man with a gun for a hand.
> 
> Yeah.



lol wut?? lmao


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 8, 2008)

Serp said:


> It feels bad yet good when people have to look up the name of my university course



Especially considering I'm meant to be studying psychology...

To make an effort to appear more aggressive, like Yu, I'm gonna add  to the end of each post tonight.


----------



## Batman (Sep 8, 2008)

Serp said:


> It feels bad yet good when people have to look up the name of my university course



Life was so much easier when I just took: Science, English, Math, P.E, Lunch . . .  Then everything started to have a fancy names so you didn't even know what you were taking until a week into the lectures.

_edited for added toughness:_


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 8, 2008)

So leaping on the bandwagon are we batman?


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

Well my subject is awesome


----------



## Batman (Sep 8, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> So leaping on the bandwagon are we batman?



Hell yeah! The bandwagon is the place to be. It sure as hell beats coming up with original ideas.


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

Actually you guys are using slight different smilies.


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## Tyrael (Sep 8, 2008)

Are you accusing us of not being mindless clones bred by the great machine? 

Edit- Original ideas can suck my


----------



## Batman (Sep 8, 2008)

Serp said:


> Actually you guys are using slight different smilies.



We are? I didn't even realized it till you said that. 


 that's better.



Tyrael said:


> Are you accusing us of not being mindless clones bred by the great machine?
> 
> Edit- Original ideas can suck my



Lol. I found that post to be funny.



Is the irony working?


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 8, 2008)

You find me to be a funny man?


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

You cannot hope to imitate my resonant hate.


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

LOL @ Yu, now he seems to lost his imposing feel


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

I will never lose it.


----------



## Serp (Sep 8, 2008)

And now its back.


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## Tyrael (Sep 8, 2008)

How dare you try and take away our attempts to steal your reputation Yu!


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## Lord Yu (Sep 8, 2008)

The simple addition of a seemingly random character derailing plot. This is now the topic.


----------



## Batman (Sep 8, 2008)

Emnity is like a glove. If it doesn't fit, you can always slap somebody in the face with it.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 9, 2008)

I worked out a good amount of the world of my story today. Including correctly guessing the age of one of the characters I'd created months ago 

So I need help with food. Yes, food.

The world I'm creating lacks plants. On a serious level. Vegetables and fruits are out. Meats, mushrooms, stuff like that are in.

What foods can vegetables and fruit be substituted with? Those living in polar regions can get away with it, the inhabitants of my world need to as well.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 9, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Flaws are the one weapon we have against Mary-Sues, and I'm not sure that you should go back and rewrite them, until you have definite fixed point where you want them to be. If you go back and redo it all you'll find it evolves as you do parts you had never before until eventually you have to go back and rewrite again. Keep going until your finished and then rewrite is my advice, lest you get stuck in a cyclic and debilitating routine.



The thing is, the story series isn't even half way over...already its horribly flawed in some places. Some of the stories are salvageable, like Heaven Forbid. It will be completely saved and only modified and edited to fix the mistakes that are still there. But the rest of the stories will be rewritten because I can tighten the the plots up, make the characters a little bit more consistently characterized and most importantly I have a whole list of characters that I don't need. 

I have been having trouble getting my start...but I have something here, this is where its started at. Took me forever to decide where to go: 




> It was two thirty seven in the damn morning and I was rummaging around the garage floor for a rifle silencer. The desired piece had rolled somewhere underneath the workbench that I never used which was wedged right next to the fridge that we kept nothing in and the far wall of the garage. My hand was too large and the search couldn't really garner any results.  ​
> 
> Just before I could sit up the door opened just a pinch and the light from inside of the house flooded in. I glanced back to the now opened door where she glared down at me through those Lisa Loeb glasses, her hair a mess of red curls silhouetted by light from the television playing behind her.​
> 
> ...


----------



## Batman (Sep 9, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> I worked out a good amount of the world of my story today. Including correctly guessing the age of one of the characters I'd created months ago
> 
> So I need help with food. Yes, food.
> 
> ...



I dunno. You could just give them all bad cases of scurvy, but that might be counter productive. Do they eat seaweed?  

No but seriously, I 'm pretty sure that they say that scurvy is the bane of the arctic region, so you might have to improvise or do some deep research or come up with some kind of trade route with peoples that still have their teeth.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 10, 2008)

Sometimes I'm disturbed by my retention of so many Japanese surnames. I probably know more Japanese surnames than in any other language and I don't even speak it.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 13, 2008)

I've defined the paths of my story and I've finally got to work on fixing the intro. Gohei's path needs the least fixing but it's still on the intro. Michelle's had alot of irrelevant digression into her past, Eridaltia's first chapter goes too far with absurdism in bits and becomes inconsistent.


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## .:Jason:. (Sep 14, 2008)

*Facepalms.* I've got the characters and the genre, I just cant come up with a plot.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 14, 2008)

JasonKunxx said:


> *Facepalms.* I've got the characters and the genre, I just cant come up with a plot.



That's kind of an odd way to do a story I think, usually I have the plot develop the characters from within, and what it needs.


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## Kameil (Sep 15, 2008)

Greetings people.


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## Taurus Versant (Sep 15, 2008)

What's you guy's opinions on humour through character interactions?

That's always been my card when it came to working in humour. Dialogue between characters and such. I have a solid plan for using it in my upcoming story, but I'm kinda interested what other people's takes on it are.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 15, 2008)

Most of my humor comes from dialogue.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 15, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> What's you guy's opinions on humour through character interactions?
> 
> That's always been my card when it came to working in humour. Dialogue between characters and such. I have a solid plan for using it in my upcoming story, but I'm kinda interested what other people's takes on it are.



I have humor, some of it is through characterization, that's the harder type, then it can come from dialog, thats a little easier. Having it in the actually narration and outside of characterization seems a little foreign to me, unless the story is first person.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 15, 2008)

I tend to weave deadpan humor into 3rd person narration.


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## .:Jason:. (Sep 15, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> That's kind of an odd way to do a story I think, usually I have the plot develop the characters from within, and what it needs.



Heh me too. This one's being told from the eyes of the main characters though, but I don't have a plot just the characters and genre.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 15, 2008)

Sit down and bullshit something. Let the characters create the plot.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 15, 2008)

I've never really created the characters or plot first-they both seem to mesh. I'm not sure how you would make up a plot to fit around the characters exactly.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 15, 2008)

My story was born from the idea that blocking bullets with a sword is really cool. A good story can come out of anything.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 15, 2008)

Ah, but there was an organic sequence of growths that caused the whole formation of the story, right? It wasn't something where you sat down and worked all elements of it separately right?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 15, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I've never really created the characters or plot first-they both seem to mesh. I'm not sure how you would make up a plot to fit around the characters exactly.



This is kind of how it works for me too. 

I have decided to call my new story Epitaph.


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## Tyrael (Sep 15, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> This is kind of how it works for me too.
> 
> I have decided to call my new story Epitaph.



Who dies/Is it to do with their transcription on the stone being their experiences in life?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 15, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Who dies/Is it to do with their transcription on the stone being their experiences in life?



No one dies, its basically what I took from a line where the main/POV character talks about death and talks about how everyone gets that same three lines and we're all just trying to fill that epitaph. I have the exact quote written in my notebook in the car...

(can you believe I thought it up at the Dairy Queen)


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 15, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Ah, but there was an organic sequence of growths that caused the whole formation of the story, right? It wasn't something where you sat down and worked all elements of it separately right?



I sat down slapped together some ideas that sounded good to me. Alot of good ones alot of bad ones. My story took many different forms. So many different forms. Some thinking back really would make decent video games when I think about it. Deeper than the tripe they shove out nowadays.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 15, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I sat down slapped together some ideas that sounded good to me. Alot of good ones alot of bad ones. My story took many different forms. So many different forms. Some thinking back really would make decent video games when I think about it. Deeper than the tripe they shove out nowadays.



LoK would have made downright awesome books. Or movies. There are some stories that transcend medium.


----------



## Crimson Lord (Sep 16, 2008)

Working on a novel. It's ~300 pages so far.

I kinda stopped due to college. >_<


The novel is about a warrior trying to discover himself - aiming to be from the mightiest if not the mightiest in warriors - in combat, wisdom, strategy, and so on. (and more, but cant rlly list a general idea without giving in quite some details.... >.<)

Has many elements such as comedy, drama, and action. No romance involved, rofl ^_^.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 16, 2008)

300 pages is rather impressive. If you've got that far your probably a better writer than me.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 16, 2008)

Don't think I've ever hit 300 pages in a single story. I was in the 200s once, but that was as far as I've gone.

If you count the page total of everything I've written, I'm somewhere in the 400s though.


----------



## Batman (Sep 16, 2008)

300 pages is daunting as a mofo. 


Today I wrote the prologue for the book I'm developing. Actually this is the second time I wrote it. The first time it was garbage. Now its only trash.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 16, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Don't think I've ever hit 300 pages in a single story. I was in the 200s once, but that was as far as I've gone.
> 
> If you count the page total of everything I've written, I'm somewhere in the 400s though.



That A4 single spaced aye?

My longest was 110(75k words), I'm feeling very inferior at the moment.

Edit-New prologue? You're getting as bad as me with your story skipping Bats.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 16, 2008)

I think I've cracked 300 somewhere in the amount of stuff I've written for my story before this first rewrite. But since I had it in so many documents I don't know.

Oh well still fixing intro chapters.


----------



## Batman (Sep 16, 2008)

^ One of these days you're going to have to staple all of those pages together and call it one whole book. 



> Edit-New prologue? You're getting as bad as me with your story skipping Bats.


I had no choice. I wasn't trying hard enough in the first one. And I'm not skipping around that much, it took me a about 2 months before I wrote any any bit of 'story' for this project. I just finally sat down to do it, and it sucked. .


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## Tyrael (Sep 16, 2008)

Oh, I see. I'm having trouble imagining you writing something that sucks though. That still sounds like my territory. 

And you seem to use your breaks efficiently, research and stuff?


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## Lord Yu (Sep 16, 2008)

I'm gonna have to advance the plot one day. But I want a proper foundation first.  Too much retconning forced me to do this rewrite.


----------



## Chee (Sep 16, 2008)

What do you guys do when you have a good idea, try to put more into the idea but have it end up like shit? Everytime I have a good idea sooner or later it ends up like crap.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 16, 2008)

When I have a good idea I work at it and make it awesome.


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## Batman (Sep 17, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Oh, I see. I'm having trouble imagining you writing something that sucks though. That still sounds like my territory.
> 
> And you seem to use your breaks efficiently, research and stuff?



Yeah I haven't really taken a break. . I just hate being idle. I suppose I can rest when I'm dead. Though I haven't been working as long as when I was typing, but yeah I've been reading a lot, taking a ton of notes, trying to gain a semblance of structure for what I'm trying to accomplish. I want to see if I can get this all into one book. So I'm being overly meticulous.



			
				Chee said:
			
		

> What do you guys do when you have a good idea, try to put more into the idea but have it end up like shit? Everytime I have a good idea sooner or later it ends up like crap.


 The product is usually 10 times worse than idea. I just keep trying to hone it to something passable. You might surprise your self and edit it into a masterpiece.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 17, 2008)

Chee said:


> What do you guys do when you have a good idea, try to put more into the idea but have it end up like shit? Everytime I have a good idea sooner or later it ends up like crap.



All ideas are conceived good and written below their original par. Work with it, or you run the risk of continually running round in circles waiting for the one perfect story that will never come.



Batman said:


> Yeah I haven't really taken a break. . I just hate being idle. I suppose I can rest when I'm dead. Though I haven't been working as long as when I was typing, but yeah I've been reading a lot, taking a ton of notes, trying to gain a semblance of structure for what I'm trying to accomplish. I want to see if I can get this all into one book. So I'm being overly meticulous.
> 
> The product is usually 10 times worse than idea. I just keep trying to hone it to something passable. You might surprise your self and edit it into a masterpiece.



Nothing wrong with that. With my recent project I've disregarded all such ideas of planning and structure. It (seems) to have fixed the pacing.


----------



## Serp (Sep 17, 2008)

Chee said:


> What do you guys do when you have a good idea, try to put more into the idea but have it end up like shit? Everytime I have a good idea sooner or later it ends up like crap.



As I have said before, when I have a good idea I obsess and elaborate it


----------



## Chee (Sep 17, 2008)

> Work with it, or you run the risk of continually running round in circles waiting for the one perfect story that will never come.



Yea, that's what I feel like I'm doing right now. Thanks guys.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 17, 2008)

I'm  worried my style keeps shifting mid-paragraph. If anyone notices it I suppose I could always act pretentious though.

Anyone else find this?


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 17, 2008)

My story keeps shifting. I fixed the intro but new story possibilities pop up. I usually switch styles based on character and chapter and sometimes just to fuck with my reader. I blame Old Boy this time.


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## Tyrael (Sep 17, 2008)

One chapter told with the incessant darkness of Gibson, the next with light hearted whimsy of Austin?


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## Lord Yu (Sep 17, 2008)

I don't even know even if I can gauge it. I'll switch from dramatic and poetic(As is possible for me. I'm not very poetic) to conversational to dark suspenseful, jerky and back to drama or dark. It's hard to describe it. May be due to my lol ADD.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 17, 2008)

Well, at least it's not like me. I'm merely inconsistent.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 18, 2008)

I have learned the name of my greatest enemy. Melodrama. I hate when things get sappy and soft focus.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 18, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I have learned the name of my greatest enemy. Melodrama. I hate when things get sappy and soft focus.



I can't melodrama; I wish I could. I need some sort of soft edge to this Sci-fi-esque angst.

I'm worried that my books might be a bit too unremarkable and mainstream. Should I just let the story tell itself and worry later about how badly the elites in my head will scoff at me for my pretensions or lack thereof?


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 18, 2008)

I'm worried about my book getting to over dramatic and lamenting in spots. Wouldn't want to turn Michelle into Catelyn Stark when she's far from that.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 18, 2008)

It's hard to know when your writing well placed and heart tugging angst, or just straight up wangst.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 18, 2008)

Trying to balance emotions to captivate the readers while still progressing through an actiony type of story is easier said than done. It's tricky.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 18, 2008)

I usually have problems when revealing backstory in great chunks. But I also get worried about leaving the audience hanging. But hmmm I think that's what I'm supposed to do. Set trails of mystery for further on.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 18, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Trying to balance emotions to captivate the readers while still progressing through an actiony type of story is easier said than done. It's tricky.



I'm not so sure, because the medium means stories are never really based purely around action. There is always themes or characters in their, and you have to trust they will resonate with somebody.



Lord Yu said:


> I usually have problems when revealing backstory in great chunks. But I also get worried about leaving the audience hanging. But hmmm I think that's what I'm supposed to do. Set trails of mystery for further on.



Leaving audience hanging is good. Just make sure you damn well resolve it though. I hate it when the story is untidy in a bad way-_Perdido Street Station_ is a good example of brilliant untidiness.


----------



## Serp (Sep 18, 2008)

Untidiness , that makes me rage as you may have picked up on


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 18, 2008)

I'm currently trying to invent my own Calendar.  I've already had names for days kicking around my head. I already have the Calendar years name. C.U. (Cyrus Usmorna)


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 18, 2008)

Serp said:


> Untidiness , that makes me rage as you may have picked up on



Read _Perdido Street Station_. It'll change your mind, or you'll hate it. Simply awesome.

How's the book(s) coming along?


----------



## Serp (Sep 18, 2008)

The plot intrigues me  and as for the book(s) I got caught up in little details and things abit too much to actually do any new work, and yourself?


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 18, 2008)

I have found a way to disguise how bad everything I write is: handwriting. I struggle to read it. But problems with my discipline mean I'm only a bout 19 pages (4K words) in.

Once again, however, I find myself contrasted with the detailed layout of you or Yu or most others here (probably) worlds and my lazy approach to world building.

The who's viewing bar appears to be back.


----------



## Serp (Sep 18, 2008)

19 pages, isn't that closer to 14K than 4k words, unless the font is sized different. Have you ever sat down and read a book that in your opinion has a bad take on the subject or theme of the book but still read it because you feel you need to, or at least finish it.  Im having that problem right now, I'm raging because I fell the style is messy and characterizations crappy, as well as it take on the occult quite baffling, but I still am reading it


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 18, 2008)

I'm thinking that I'm making new headway in characterization.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 18, 2008)

Serp said:


> 19 pages, isn't that closer to 14K than 4k words, unless the font is sized different. Have you ever sat down and read a book that in your opinion has a bad take on the subject or theme of the book but still read it because you feel you need to, or at least finish it.  Im having that problem right now, I'm raging because I fell the style is messy and characterizations crappy, as well as it take on the occult quite baffling, but I still am reading it



Handwritten A5 pages, I get at most 250 per page and I don't think I even get that much. When on the computer I would only be on 5 pages.

Which book would this be? (Canavan?) I say put it down and come back to it later when you're in the mood for something that is light and shallow. Such books have their times.


----------



## Serp (Sep 18, 2008)

Its the Anita Blake books by Hamilton,  And I hear rumours that they later cross from some eroticism to porn on paper. :/


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 18, 2008)

Serp said:


> Its the Anita Blake books by Hamilton,  And I hear rumours that they later cross from some eroticism to porn on paper. :/



From what I've heard about it, all of which is pretentious cynicism, run. Fast.

Unless, of course, the porn part is what you are reading it for?


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 18, 2008)

lol, I've heard about that.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 18, 2008)

Was it those two amazon reviews I linked?


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 18, 2008)

A friend told me about Hamilton's work. Sometimes I can sympathize. I know how easily stories can shift into sadomasochistic sex. Though I was coming off a Tsukihime binge.


----------



## Serp (Sep 18, 2008)

One woman who writes supernatural novels, that I really love is Kelley Armstrong. I find her works to be a brilliant way of showing the supernatural underworld in a believable fashion. I recommend reading Bitten and Stolen, Stolen is better though.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 18, 2008)

I personally can't stand vampire and werewolf stories. Ironic because my story was about vampires at one  point. The thought of that makes me sick thinking back. It was the idea of someone else. Though it was someone else' idea and it brought me to new heights on my concepts of immortality. I kinda used to like vampires before the experience with my story. Always hated werewolves but mostly indifferent to like with vampires. Now all the goth faggotry really pissed me off when I encountered it. I hate vampires now with a few exceptions. Though for some reason I feel the desire to include such creatures in my story because they are fun to fight as generics. Who knows what I'll throw in. I keep coming up with some new set of monsters each rewrite.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 18, 2008)

I think, unless you are Bram Stoker, vampires are best left alone.

They're probably gonna appear in my fantasy works at some point though-'tis inevitable.


----------



## Serp (Sep 18, 2008)

I hate the goth faggotry as well, I like the concepts of something human but not really human, if that makes any sense and Vampires and Werewolves fit that genre, but there are very few novels out there that are based on them that I enjoy as its all, goth black, blah blah blah. With werewolves I hate the fact that they can be depicted as large dumb animals who only want to kill, I prefer the style that is shown in the Armstrong books, that they can just be people with the same problems as everyone else, but have to cope with what can only be called a disease. I used to fanwank vampires, but I came to enjoy werewolves more because of their flaws. Hence my werewolf novel, is meant to flip the genre, showing how yes they are werewolves but that is only the basis of what they are and things, problems that occur are more rooted in their culture and ways of doing things than actually being a werewolf. I could transfer this idea across many different things, such as blind people or racially different people, the aim is to show does it matter who or what I am, our problems still need to be addressed. None of that archaic king of the night, sleep in coffin, worship satan, evil capes, drink the blood of virgins bullshit, my Vamps live like normal people, and like to, just certain things restrict them and they need to learn to live their lives around it. I love breaking the stereotypes and building a new image for this new age.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 18, 2008)

If you want the humanity aspects of vampires and werewolves and (the most masterfully executed of all) elfs, Pratchett is awesome. He's my exception to that "leave the gothicness alone": _Carpe Juglum_, _The Fifth Elephant _and_ Lords and Ladies_. What Pratchett does with werewolves, to integrate them in society, is rather than make it a disease he sets it up in a way that they use it to take advantage and bully people whilst examining the duplicity of humanity and so on and so forth. Seriously, read them.

His treatment was elfs are those hearkening back to their original status ala humans, before _A Midsummer's Night's Dream_ and later _Lord of the Rings_ built up their current depiction in fiction.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 18, 2008)

I've been wanting to read Discworld and whatnot but never know where to start.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 18, 2008)

As stories, most are stand alone but a lot of the later ones reference a lot of the earlier ones. So I'm going to randomly recommend _Wyrd Sisters_.


----------



## Serp (Sep 18, 2008)

Pratchett is amazing I have to give him that, In my novels personally I have shown the werewolf culture change over time. Firstly they mirror the Spartan way of life a strong proud warrior nation, but later their skills are not of much use in this time and they just have to integrate and lose mainly what their culture was about. 

In one of my stories, a Vampire woman is living with her husband and his son, she has given up blood (the source of her strength and longevity) and as such is growing old and happy in this life. But a serial killer begins to do ritualistic killings in and around her town, and the police have no leads, she has to decide if it is worth letting to blow over or doing something about it and possibly distancing herself from her family. Its big on morality and was quite fun to explore. Because in this one the killer is less human than the Vampire in a twisted way.

I really can't explain what exactly I'm trying to get across, but a quote come to mind. _"It doesn't matter what you are, its what you do with your life that makes you human."_


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 18, 2008)

Pratchett is my favourite ever author. Seriously; fantasy with political correctness, a tyranny that works and a condom factory.

I see you went back on the idea of vampires being barren then? But it does sound very interesting, a lot of novels seem to play on the idea of vampires being glamorous whilst missing the point on that glamour.

But I get your idea-your protagonist should be intrinsically more evil than the humans, but 'tis the human whom are committing atrocities: also the suggestion that this dark vampire face is something inside even the most lowly person but rejected. Is good.


----------



## Serp (Sep 18, 2008)

A tranny in a condom factory thats comedy. 

 Im still unsure about the vampires being barren, thats why its her husbands son hence her step-son.  And this killer is well being a psychopath, means if she has to face him, well its back to her roots and to protect that which she loves, she will have to do something that she fears might distance them from her forever, misjudgment formed from love.

But I enjoy writing these kind of things, if the reader takes away something that makes them think or at least go "Ah, I never thought of it that way"  is payment enough for anything I do.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 18, 2008)

Serp said:


> A tranny in a condom factory thats comedy.
> 
> Im still unsure about the vampires being barren, thats why its her husbands son hence her step-son.  And this killer is well being a psychopath, means if she has to face him, well its back to her roots and to protect that which she loves, she will have to do something that she fears might distance them from her forever, misjudgment formed from love.
> 
> But I enjoy writing these kind of things, if the reader takes away something that makes them think or at least go "Ah, I never thought of it that way"  is payment enough for anything I do.



Lol, not quite, the Ankh-Morpork is ruled by a tyranny which is completely functional, rather than a hotbed of discontent that seems omnipresent in most other fiction. And there's a condom factory. No trannies though.

She might have to suck blood to get the strength to stop him, yeah? I agree with that challenge your readers ethos. It is very rewarding.


----------



## Serp (Sep 18, 2008)

Lol I misread, its a bad sign if the first thing that comes to mind is trannies  
So this tyranny is like an evil run utopia lol. What the us tries to be amirite 

And if you put enough to make your readers get hooked or think, then even the most basic of stories can be successful.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 18, 2008)

Technically I have a working tyranny where everyone is too concerned about being fashionable to care about government issues.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 18, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Technically I have a working tyranny where everyone is too concerned about being fashionable to care about government issues.



Brave New World?


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 18, 2008)

Perhaps, it's basically a theocracy  ruled by an immortal. I should actually read Brave New World. I have it on tape but when I listen to it I phase out.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 18, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Perhaps, it's basically a theocracy  ruled by an immortal. I should actually read Brave New World. I have it on tape but when I listen to it I phase out.



The world is brilliant and it's portrayal of consumerism is really, scarily, realistic. Either way, interesting to see unusual dystopian ideas in a fantasy.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 18, 2008)

I should _really_ read something by Prattchet.


----------



## Pan-on (Sep 19, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Perhaps, it's basically a theocracy  ruled by an immortal. I should actually read Brave New World. I have it on tape but when I listen to it I phase out.



sounds a little like the world in the mistborn series


----------



## Tiger (Sep 19, 2008)

I find myself coming up with shit-tons of ideas that would be great for manga...but not for a novel.

It sucks...especially cuz I can't draw for shit.


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## Batman (Sep 19, 2008)

Everyone in my new book is an asshole or a dickwad. I'm loosing hope in false humanity.


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## Pan-on (Sep 19, 2008)

Batman said:


> Everyone in my new book is an asshole or a dickwad. I'm loosing hope in false humanity.



now you know how god feels


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## Batman (Sep 19, 2008)

Anonx said:


> now you know how god feels



He surely hates us all.


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## Pan-on (Sep 19, 2008)

Batman said:


> He surely hates us all.



i would if i was god, and were lucky im not, my sea monkeys died


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## Tyrael (Sep 19, 2008)

My earphones are dying .


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## Batman (Sep 19, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> My earphones are dying .



No parent should live to see their earphones die.


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## Tyrael (Sep 19, 2008)

Batman said:


> No parent should live to see their earphones die.



:rofl

I think I may have fixed my pacing.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 19, 2008)

I need to study clothing. Probably armor too.


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## Tyrael (Sep 19, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I need to study clothing. Probably armor too.



I am admittedly lazy with this-when I describe a character it is rarely detailed, and clothing is never mentioned (a hell of a lot of nudists in my books).


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## Lord Yu (Sep 19, 2008)

I'm usually pretty detailed in my character descriptions.



> For amusement and motion's sake she picked an outfit that made her look like a man in the French Revolution. A blue silk shirt with white marble buttons, a black split tail coat complete with beige gallants and knee high boots.


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## Batman (Sep 19, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I am admittedly lazy with this-when I describe a character it is rarely detailed, and clothing is never mentioned (a hell of a lot of nudists in my books).



Sounds like you write some sexy books .  .  . or some grotesque ones.


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## Tyrael (Sep 19, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm usually pretty detailed in my character descriptions.



Wait, your stories take part in our universe?



Batman said:


> Sounds like you write some sexy books .  .  . or some grotesque ones.



I like to consider myself a true artist. 

Read into that as you will.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 19, 2008)

I've said some of my characters are from Earth. That was one of them.


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## Tyrael (Sep 19, 2008)

Evidently so. Pretty cool that your hearkening back to parts of culture like that.


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## Batman (Sep 19, 2008)

Quick question: Would they ever use the phrase 'butt fucking' in say the middle ages?


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## Chee (Sep 19, 2008)

Batman said:


> Quick question: Would they ever use the phrase 'butt fucking' in say the middle ages?



Nope. 'ye olde butte fucking'.


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## sel (Sep 19, 2008)

A medieval version of Brokeback Mountain?


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## Lord Yu (Sep 19, 2008)

Batman said:


> Quick question: Would they ever use the phrase 'butt fucking' in say the middle ages?



I'd just say arse fucking.


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## sel (Sep 19, 2008)

At least you're spelling it right.


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## Batman (Sep 19, 2008)

sel said:


> A medieval version of Brokeback Mountain?



Nah. Just an off hand comment. . . . . . . . . . . . . 



> Nope. 'ye olde butte fucking'.


Olde English? 



> I'd just say arse fucking.



do brittish people actually say arse? I thought they said ass with an accent.


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## Chee (Sep 19, 2008)

Wouldn't they use the term fornication?


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## Tyrael (Sep 19, 2008)

Nope, we say arse; altohugh I alternate between ass and arse depending on what sounds better on the tip of my tongue.


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## Batman (Sep 19, 2008)

Lemme see if I can find the line . . .



> I will not utter it here for it does him service, an act akin to butt-fucking the truth.



too much?


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## Lord Yu (Sep 19, 2008)

I think arse-fucking would sound punchier.


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## Tyrael (Sep 19, 2008)

Depends on what type of book it is. If it's aimed at children or very young adults, or if it is a very mainstream type book, then no; otherwise go ahead.


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## Batman (Sep 19, 2008)

Ya adult book.  Coincidentally part of my 'masterpiece'.


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## Tyrael (Sep 19, 2008)

Batman said:


> Ya adult book.  Coincidentally part of my 'masterpiece'.



Then use the word sodomy, for extra points:



> I will not utter it here for it does him service, an act akin to violently sodomising the truth.


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## Batman (Sep 19, 2008)

> 'an act akin to sodomizing the truth'


 . . . I kinda like that ? . . . though the extra syllable throws off the rhythm  . .. . .  hmmmm


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## Tyrael (Sep 19, 2008)

Batman said:


> . . . I kinda like that ? . . . though the extra syllable throws off the rhythm  . .. . .  hmmmm



The break in metre serves to emphasise the words even more, I reckon. When introducing a concept so powerful and edgy the break in flow ain't necessarily a bad thing.

(I love to bullshit this stuff).


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## Lord Yu (Sep 19, 2008)

Chee said:


> Wouldn't they use the term fornication?



First recorded usage of fuck is somewhere in the 700s.


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## VK377 (Sep 19, 2008)

Has anyone here ever gotten their book(s) published? 
If so, did you need an agent?


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## Chee (Sep 19, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> First recorded usage of fuck is somewhere in the 700s.



And knowledge is power. 



VK377 said:


> Has anyone here ever gotten their book(s) published?
> If so, did you need an agent?



Yea, I'm published. I've sold over five million copies and I was #1 on New York Times Bestseller and I hang around NF. Totally.


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## Tyrael (Sep 19, 2008)

VK377 said:


> Has anyone here ever gotten their book(s) published?
> If so, did you need an agent?



Getting a literary agent before considering sending to a publisher is highly recommended in everything I've read.


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## VK377 (Sep 19, 2008)

Chee said:


> Yea, I'm published. I've sold over five million copies and I was #1 on New York Times Bestseller and I hang around NF. Totally.


  That was funny. 
I just wanted to know what peoples' opinions were on agents. I heard that many of the larger publishing houses wouldn't even consider you without one.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 19, 2008)

I've heard that too.


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## Tyrael (Sep 19, 2008)

I think it is pretty much the given path: a pain in the arse.


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## Batman (Sep 19, 2008)

No point in getting an agent until you can afford one . . . so I've read.  I'm going with this.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 19, 2008)

Well fuck I'm broke lol.


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## Chee (Sep 20, 2008)

Not exactly a novel, but just want your guy's opinions on the first scene on my screenplay.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> INT. LOCAL CONVENIENT STORE - NIGHT
> 
> A near empty convenient store. A YOUNG STORE CLERK, red hair pulled back in a tight horse tail. She is in her early twenties, tall and very tired. Very inattentive to the items that rolls lazily on the register.
> 
> ...






Any advice or critque is welcome.


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## Tiger (Sep 20, 2008)

I liked it, except for the "are you having a party" bit.

Not that cashiers don't ask that, but a) 6 beer isn't enough for a party, and b) people drink alone all the time. It wouldn't be an uncommon thing for her to sell a 6-pack of beer to the same person every day for a month when he drinks it alone every night.

If you still want her to say that, then it would add something if the guy countered with something like: "People drink alone every day." or something to show the reader that yeah, you do understand that what she said was off. Because it's ok for a character to give false information, but usually not the narrator/writer.

My opinion only. I'm gonna show something to you guys a bit later today for critique as well. I would do it right now, but I'm on my way out the door.


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## Chee (Sep 20, 2008)

Alright, gotcha. Thanks. :3


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## Tiger (Sep 20, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Getting a literary agent before considering sending to a publisher is highly recommended in everything I've read.



Doing your homework, and being in contact with publishing companies is the first and most important step. It's good to get an idea if you have a product someone wants before you get yourself representation.


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## Tyrael (Sep 20, 2008)

Eddy said:


> Doing your homework, and being in contact with publishing companies is the first and most important step. It's good to get an idea if you have a product someone wants before you get yourself representation.



By being in contact, do you mean directly sending them the documents? I have heard something along the lines that VK337 that the majority of publishers will even look at unsolicited manuscripts, so I'm not sure what you mean.

I agree about doing your homework and such. This is a book, sell it! ain't a helpful attitude to anyone.


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## Tiger (Sep 20, 2008)

By contact, I mean asking questions, understanding the policies and desires OF the publishing companies. I would not send unsolicited manuscripts anywhere. Having a college professor with connections can be huge though, for example. A literary agent, when you're first starting out is a little too presumptuous, I think.

Also, their expectations and qualifications. Just have all your facts straight, and get your name out there.


[edit] I absolutely abhor the fact that I can't copy stuff over from Word to here without the indentations being destroyed and eaten up. I'll save you all the bleeding eyes, and just not post the pages.


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## Tyrael (Sep 20, 2008)

Eddy said:


> By contact, I mean asking questions, understanding the policies and desires OF the publishing companies. I would not send unsolicited manuscripts anywhere. Having a college professor with connections can be huge though, for example. A literary agent, when you're first starting out is a little too presumptuous, I think.
> 
> Also, their expectations and qualifications. Just have all your facts straight, and get your name out there.
> 
> ...



Yeah, it's a hard balance. You should get a few things under your belt and a bit of a resume built up before trying to do anything major, but it's hard to know what to do if you're not already in contact with someone who knows the business.

Putting a space between each paragraph tends to be the norm for formatting on the internet-I say go for it anyway and let us worry about our eyes.


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## Tiger (Sep 20, 2008)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Prologue

“Honestly, my dear, I don’t understand why we’re out here.” The woman sighed wearily, fanning her face with a clean, white glove.

Instead of responding, the young girl at her side simply smiled and continued staring at the market surrounding them. To her right, a man and a merchant bartered prices for bananas; on the far corner of a small intersection, a woman scolded a young boy holding a fistful of sweets. The simple beauty of the day appealed to her somewhere deep down, but she could not put a finger on why, so there was no reason to try and explain it. The smells of the cooking stoves, mingled with the herbs and spices of an old merchant’s cart just up the road. Unbidden, a grin spread over the young girl’s face, and for a moment the smells felt intoxicating.

“It’s just exciting, isn’t it? So full of life. You agree don’t you mother?” She squeezed her mother’s hand and flashed a smile so dazzling her mother smiled back in spite of her discomfort. Sighing again, she brushed a stray lock of hair from her daughter’s face and steered them both deftly around an old man who held his upturned hat out to them.

“Oh Karin, I can see how excited you are, but coming”- She paused to dab her forehead and steal a look around. –“down here is a fixation you and I do not exactly share.”

Karin rolled her eyes, her smile never wavering. Slipping her hand away, she took a few strides ahead to skip around the crowded road, while her mother tried in vain to cool herself in the stifling midday heat. Just before she got out of sight, Karin looked back and winked at her before running over to browse a tall, skinny man’s rich-colored scarves. He was saying something about which exotic part of the world they were from, but Karin was not listening. 

“They’re beautiful.” Karin breathed, running gloved fingers over a dark blue piece of cloth.

“They’re dirty.” Her mother countered, replacing it on the cart and leading her daughter away.

“Oh mother.” Karin rolled her eyes again, but quickly forgot what she was about to say when a chorus of children applauded from down the street. The two exchanged a glance, and Karin winked before rushing off to investigate.

Realizing her glove was not sufficient to the task, she quickly paid the tall man and grabbed the closest colored scarf and began dabbing her forehead as she trailed after the bobbing curls of her headstrong and excitable young daughter.

As Karin bobbed and weaved through traffic, she finally caught sight of an old man in a brilliant, multicolored robe and long white beard releasing pigeons from a too large top-hat. The kids surrounding him clapped and shrieked with glee, and Karin’s heart melted. She clapped right along with them, and as she reached the ring of children, let out a sharp laugh when the man abruptly sneezed a handful of the richly-colored scarves out at the crowd. The same ones, she noted, that were being sold by the tall man. She had never seen a spectacle quite like this man, and she intended to soak as much in as she could before being dragged away by her impatient mother.

Just then, the old man looked around and bellowed in a practiced voice.

“Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls! Gather ‘round, gather ‘round I say! The great Jansen will show you all a bit…of magic!” As he spoke the final word, he flourished a stack of playing cards in his hand, and promptly made them disappear. 

This elicited another rowdy applause from the children, but Karin frowned and cocked an eyebrow.

Not long after that, with her mom’s hand over hers, she turned away from the man, and said.
“I’m ready to go home now.”




~

ctd'


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## Tiger (Sep 20, 2008)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Gathering the vegetables took only a short time after that, but the temperature had dropped to a much more comfortable level by the time they began their short walk back through the market and up to their district.

Karin?s mother was grateful for the relief, even though she knew it portended a storm?s coming. Karin, on the other hand, noticed none of it. She had not perked up since her mother caught up with her at the street performance. Her mother knew her well enough not to press the subject, and instead tried to lighten the mood.

?Melinda told me this morning that she actually enjoys shopping in the market for produce and supplies. I think that Jonathan man helps her carry them back home.? She glanced over at Karin, but did not see the smirk she had hoped, so she tried a new angle.

?And I bet she gets her shopping done quite a bit faster than we do, wouldn?t you say, Miss ?I-need-to-investigate-every-smell???

In response, Karin kicked at a stone that had come loose from the cobbled road, and looked at her mother with a mix of doubt and incredulity.

?Why did that man call what he was doing, magic?? She asked.

When there was no response right away, Karin let her eyes wander the market once again as they approached the outer area. She did not want to think of the man as a deceiver, but she was confused, and was pouting because of it.

?It wasn?t magic.? 

?I know, dear.?

?Well, why would he say that then?? Karin asked, a bit louder than she anticipated.

?It?s nothing to be offended about, my dear. It is just a bit of fun for the children. He is just a fun, street performer. I think the younger ones enjoyed it, don?t you??

Karin scrunched up her nose, but nodded her head in acquiescence. She then ran a gloved hand through her long curls, and paused. Just ahead of them, to the side of the road, a group of children were playing were playing with something in a circle on the ground with small spheres. All of a sudden, a delicious idea came to her, and she tucked her gloves into her belt.

Concentrating on her hands, she released hold of her doubts and misgivings, and opened herself to her magic as she had been taught. The familiar rush of adrenaline and pleasure soon washed over her entire body.

Within seconds, in one of her upturned palms a flame flickered to life, and a flowing sphere of water took shape in the other. A smile crept over her face, and she looked over at the children, willing them to look up at her. Her mother, on the other hand, looked scandalized.

?Dear, please!? She hissed. ?Don?t draw attention to yourself.?

Karin was not listening. In fact, the moment one of the kids did look up at her, she walked forward at a quicker pace at began juggling the two spheres back and forth between her hands. It took the boy and a few onlookers to realize what she was doing, but the boy?s eyes lit up and he let out a small shriek of excitement, drawing the attention of the other children. It also drew the attention of everyone else standing on or around the road.

She fed on the attention and excitement, speeding up the process of her magic. Vaguely, she heard her mother pleading for her to stop, but instead the spheres started spinning faster in her hands. Too fast.

The excited commotion and the light given off by the magic spheres began to unsettle the workhorses standing near a few of the merchant carts. The animal handlers and merchants looked equally unsettled as she came closer, as well. Her mother?s attempts to stop her were unsuccessful still, and Karin walked ever closer to the more crowded part of the road where the horses were closest. Some merchants even began gathering their wares back from the road in anticipation of something inopportune.

Finally, afraid of what was about to happen, Karin?s mother lost her temper.
Her voice changed, and took on a menacing, surreal tone. When she spoke, Karin?s blood felt as if it would freeze in her veins, and the hair on her neck stood straight up.

?Karin. That is enough.? Her mother said, looking directly into her eyes.

The fear that gripped Karin caused her to respond immediately, snapping out of her magical reverie. Her magic, however, had no intention of doing the same. Unable to reign in the magic, the coursing power quickly became too much for her to handle with her concentration broken, and her knees buckled. Before her mother could catch her, she fell. A shocked hush fell over the crowd that had gathered to the road as the bright spheres flew from her hands.

In a great stroke of fortune, the sphere of fire sailed directly into the cobbled stone road, and fizzled out immediately. Unfortunately, however, the sphere of water had another destiny. Still spinning, the sphere flew through the air and struck one of the workhorses directly in the nose, startling it violently.

From her knees, trying in vain to catch her breath, Karin watched in abstract horror as the horse reared up and bucked wildly, bolting away from its handler. Narrowly missing the handler with a flailing hoof, it stumbled directly into an orange merchant?s cart, sending the man sprawling for safety. Karin?s hands found her mouth and covered it as she gasped.

Before the animal got far, its handler caught its reins and began soothing it until it stopped completely and allowed the man to lead it away from the scene.

The show now over, the crowd began to disperse, adults practically dragging their children away from the incident. A few concerned glances were sent Karin?s way, but they looked quickly away, sometimes forcefully by their parents.

Karin, having finally caught her breath, could not be restrained by her mother. She jumped to her feet without worrying about her dress, and rushed over to where the orange merchant was frantically collecting his wares. Knees scraped and bleeding, Karin seemed not to notice as she dropped down on them again on the hard road to help gather the oranges. Most seemed ok, but the cart itself was in bad shape.

?I am so very sorry, sir, please allow me to help.? She had already started picking them up, but politeness had been drilled into her from a very young age. She certainly did not expect to be told not to help, but that?s what happened.

?No. I-I mean please, no that?s quite alright, Miss.? He stammered, and was about to say something more, but averted his eyes from her and continued picking up the fruit.

?Well, I?m very sorry; I was being stupid and I?-

?Miss, please.? He pleaded, looking from her to her approaching mother, and then back. ?It?s quite alright, I assure you. You have nothing to apologize for, truly.? He quickly snatched an orange from in front of her before she could pick it up. ?Please, it is fine.?

She felt stunned, but his insistence seemed to mean much more than his words implied.

?I- I don?t understand, sir.?

Karin felt a gentle hand on her shoulder and looked up for support or reprimand from her mother.

?Come dear, we must be getting home.? She said softly. ?Now, please.?

Karin stood, but shook her head slowly.

?Wait. What do you mean? Why needn?t I apologize??

The man looked incredibly uncomfortable, and was sweating profusely as he looked at Karin?s mother. Clearing his throat, he picked up the final orange, and wiped his hands on an apron, before dabbing his brow with a piece of cloth.

?It is your right to do as you wish, Miss. There is no apology necessary from you and yours.? He seemed to be talking more to her mother, than to her, but after that he would say no more. The looks she saw on other merchant?s faces told a different tale, and as her mother led her away down the road out of the market district, she began to softly cry.

?Never let them see you cry, my dear.? Her mother chided softly as they approached the steps to the next district. The breeze was already more refreshing as they began the short climb. Once they were a couple minutes outside of the market, Karin sniffed and spoke.

?Why did he say that??

?We?re different dear. It has always been that way; they see us as a higher class.?

?What if I don?t want to be a higher class?? Karin replied hotly, forgetting any tears.

Her mother cocked her head to the side and looked at the beautiful young woman who was her daughter of thirteen years, and sniffed with mock-haughtiness.

?So you would rather be of lower class, then??

?No!?

They reached the top of the hill, nearby the sprawling archway of vines and flowers leading to the houses of nobility, and Karin stopped in her tracks. Her mother recognized a heel-digging, and stopped with a deep breath, preparing for war.

?In that case, dear, I?m just not sure I know what it is you do want.?

When Karin said nothing, her mother took a step toward her.

?How about we discuss this over dinner. I?ll ask Melinda to make your favorite dish. How does that sound??

Karin shrugged and turned around to look out over the lower districts of the castle city in which she grew up.

?Why does there have to be a class at all?? She said quietly after a few moments.





ctd'  /sigh


----------



## Tiger (Sep 20, 2008)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Her mother was losing patience, but pursed her lips.

?That?s just how it is.?

?Oh mother, that is not even an answer. Why does it have to be that way? Why?? She felt like she might cry again, but choked it down.

Her mother turned her towards her and put a hand on the side of her daughter?s face to soothe her.

?You were born with a gift, Karin. As was I, as were my mother and grandmother before me. Due to our gift, we were deemed higher in society.?
?That?s awful.?

They started at one another for a few moments before Karin looked back over the town.

?Listen, my dear, I never said it was right. Society is flawed, there?s no doubt about that. And it is not fair for everyone, but it is the only society we have, and the only thing any of us have ever known. They cling to it, and see us as different. You can?t expect that man to treat you any differently.?

?Yes.?- She clenched her fist. ?I can.?

Her mother shook her head, and took a moment to look over the rolling waves of the nearby coast to prepare her words.

?I am very proud to have a daughter that is unhappy with society?s flaws and injustice, I really am.?

She then pulled Karin closer to her, and looked her in the eyes, brushing a lock of hair from her daughter?s forehead.

?Among people with a gift like us, we are not powerful enough to make a difference. We are weak, while the strong make all the decisions. You will never be able to change society unless you become much more powerful. More powerful than any of them.?

The wind picked up a bit, swirling early-fallen leaves around their feet. The din of the market could still be heard in the silence.

?How do I do that?? Karin asked quietly, but intently.

?You just have to trust me, and as long as you listen to everything I teach you, I promise to you- whatever it is you desire will be yours.? She then embraced her daughter as tight as she could with a bag of vegetables in one hand, smiling into the blonde curls.

?Yes, mother.? 




Trust me, it looks better on Word, lol

This is the prologue of my new story. Chapter 1 will start 20 years after this takes place.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 20, 2008)

Grammar is not something I concern myself with too much. My processor doesn't indent.


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## Tyrael (Sep 20, 2008)

I don't think it looks bad-as long as it is readable it is the writing that counts. Here I go:

Your writing is fairly to the point, flows well and certainly keeps the plot ticking along at a fast rate. There is, however, little that really makes your style stand out and the atmosphere feels sparse. There is the heat and the outline of the setting, but I, personally, would like it a little more tangible. Like the setting-we get a big, vague overall idea of the setting but it's very much like a blurry backdrop. Individual details and smells (a very nice touch) are picked out but we never get the feel of an overarching city.

The plot itself sets itself up nicely, albeit unsubtly. You get sense of flow of narrative and a momentum building up with the whole introduction of magic that is very good, but the depiction of inequality strikes me as a little too blatant.

So far the mother seems to be a little cardboard and you offer a potentially very interesting protagonist that's seeming simplicity is fine because of her age. That said, characterisation is long game, so on a one scene basis it's not a very strong criticism-and any in-depth look we get here are could be rendered redundant by the time skip I guess.

The prologue sets up an unambiguous path for this girl to tread, something that I am somewhat unsure about-could work fantastically; might not.

All in all I'm sounding rather negative, but it was an enjoyable piece that read well-I do like the fact your looking at the society in the world. And, as I'm sure you know, all comments are my opinions and I am (as demonstrated by my knowledge of the publishing business) far from omniscient.


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## Tiger (Sep 20, 2008)

I like the blurry criticism, but would you be surprised to note that I don't want to give any more setting than absolutely possible?

The town in the prologue will never be seen again, so I'd rather not paint it clearly.

Now, that could be a mistake - even if it's just a part-time setting. I'll definitely look into it, it won't be too hard to flesh it out.

I am glad you said she was the protagonist though, because she's actually not really. In my author's notes to help me write the structure, she's actually the story's major antagonist later. I was hoping there was a hint of a power-hungry mother at the end there...she's going to create something of a monster. The way the merchant seemed to truly fear her mother...maybe I need to make that less subtle as well. (I'm just saying all this to clue you in on what's goin on inside my head)

In order for the prologue to flow into the story, I need to make sure the reader is aware that the story begins twenty years after it.

I'm glad I posted it any way, it's a rough prologue for sure. Hope someone enjoys it at any rate.


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## Tyrael (Sep 20, 2008)

I know the feeling-with my most recent project I had the rather pretentious idea of starting it off very vague and as the initial resculpting of my protagonist takes place I mean to build the setting up more and more. Or something like that. I do think that you give us more of a solid setting would help though, especially if you continue the trend of describing it as the girl sees it.

It did occur to me that merchant might be particularly scared of the mother, so you didn't completely miss that target. I just happened, since the whole fear thing wasn't very implicit, to take the mother's words at face value.

And making the girl the main antagonist means you've done your job with her portrayal in this prelude. I'm a great fan of plot twists being in the long game.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 21, 2008)

My recent work is slouching along, mostly because there's so much else to do around here that I can't devout the proper amount of time to it. That and I am trying to shift things into this new mode. I have worked to update several people so that they are workable in this new story. But like I said, I have to cut several characters because I simply don't need them. 

I just hope that I get back into the grind of things, because this promises to be better than the last rewrite (which frankly was okay, but it felt too self aware.)


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## Tiger (Sep 21, 2008)

Maybe you should have them all executed and start completely new characters?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 21, 2008)

Eddy said:


> Maybe you should have them all executed and start completely new characters?



I basically am, name changes, changes to their looks, tweaked personalities...it won't be pretty.


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## Batman (Sep 21, 2008)

Chee said:


> Not exactly a novel, but just want your guy's opinions on the first scene on my screenplay.
> 
> 
> 
> Any advice or critque is welcome.



I really liked it, wanted to know what happens next, and I liked the 'are you having a party' bit. But that's just me.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 22, 2008)

Where do you guys go for names? I was using this random name generator just to see if I could come up with some good ideas and one of them stuck with me big time. So I am using it. So far the names I am using are _Jadon Cribbs_, his wife _Portia_, some of the old names that were favorites are staying like _Pellegri_.

Right now I am trying to think up more names to use in this whole mess. By the way, Portia was the one off the Name Generator.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 22, 2008)

I make them up. Simple as that.


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## Taurus Versant (Sep 22, 2008)

Some names, try starting with a base word that summarises the character design wise, then build on the word, alternating letters until you have a name that sounds good.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 22, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Some names, try starting with a base word that summarises the character design wise, then build on the word, alternating letters until you have a name that sounds good.



I really am happy with these few that I have now, I also added two to the group. One of them is video game inspired, but I really like the name, _Cessini Petronella_ and then there is _Virgil Levitt_. I am going to basically come up with the names for people as they are needed. The names I just made up were ALWAYS my favorite. (like _Stroud_)

I am hoping that I can get into more of a good writing mood with this story.


----------



## Tiger (Sep 22, 2008)

Sometimes, I make up gibberish words for names, like Taiv. I justify it in my mind, by saying it's short for Taiven, but either way - it's just made up.

Sometimes, if I have a few strange-ish names, I'll toss in a completely normal one like Christine to be in the middle.

Other times I'll give an old name a slight twist and say the parents named him/her after a mythological hero, like Gavriel.

I have yet gone to a generator, but I may have to soon - my newest name for my newest character is Jasmine.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 22, 2008)

Eddy said:


> Sometimes, I make up gibberish words for names, like Taiv. I justify it in my mind, by saying it's short for Taiven, but either way - it's just made up.
> 
> Sometimes, if I have a few strange-ish names, I'll toss in a completely normal one like Christine to be in the middle.
> 
> ...



Like how in the midst of all these names I have a name like _Megan. _I will be working on more normal sounding names. And I think the only time I really ever used something I never thought of as a name before was when I used _Ambrosia _as a name.


----------



## BlueDemon (Sep 22, 2008)

Lol....I actually haven´t thought bout names xD
The main char is me (in my day dreams lol) - but it´s a  little harder to put all my freakin fantasy in a novel.
I have a beginning but I´ll just have to wait for a period when I have more time and such xD
And the novel is gonna be SF ( thank Dune and other classics for that ^^)

Do you people write on your PC or on paper?what do you think it´s better?


----------



## Pan-on (Sep 22, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Where do you guys go for names? I was using this random name generator just to see if I could come up with some good ideas and one of them stuck with me big time. So I am using it. So far the names I am using are _Jadon Cribbs_, his wife _Portia_, some of the old names that were favorites are staying like _Pellegri_.
> 
> Right now I am trying to think up more names to use in this whole mess. By the way, Portia was the one off the Name Generator.



im so so awful with names, im too picky. I dont like using the names of people I know.

My new plan is to look through all the mail for previous tennants we have been sent in our flat and find names from there.

apparently someone called Hermione used to live here, that made me smile.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 22, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Like how in the midst of all these names I have a name like _Megan. _I will be working on more normal sounding names. And I think the only time I really ever used something I never thought of as a name before was when I used _Ambrosia _as a name.



I take after Herbert in that respect-mostly normal/very boring names but a fair few really odd ones as well.



BlueDemon said:


> Lol....I actually haven?t thought bout names xD
> The main char is me (in my day dreams lol) - but it?s a  little harder to put all my freakin fantasy in a novel.
> I have a beginning but I?ll just have to wait for a period when I have more time and such xD
> And the novel is gonna be SF ( thank Dune and other classics for that ^^)
> ...



...And talking of Herbert, Dune pretty much pisses on all other sci-fi i've read. Then again, Dune pretty much pisses on everything that isn't LotR.



Anonx said:


> im so so awful with names, im too picky. I dont like using the names of people I know.
> 
> My new plan is to look through all the mail for previous tennants we have been sent in our flat and find names from there.
> 
> apparently someone called Hermione used to live here, that made me smile.



It's a sign! Harry Potter isn't a book-it's a chronicling.


----------



## Serp (Sep 22, 2008)

@Ty I thank you, American gods is awesome, I still can't find that other book thou, the one you called beautifully messy, about wings or someshit , but the first one is great so far. I am yet to fully get into the whole story, but already I can feel that this book is the kind I will enjoy and will help me with my writing 

EDIT:

As for Good names, you have my Overactive imagination and background research for that. My Characters names usually mean something, either very subtly, literal or metaphorical about the character. Like in the case of my werewolves, I wanted to think of names that sounded old, but not old as in Doris, and names for old people. But old as in names used ages ago, maybe a little celtic, maybe a little italian or just a beautiful jumble. In the end I choose a theme and derived names from that  a rep to anyone who can guess the pattern. 
D'wailing
Aria
Sey-Ting
Plase
Locain 


And for my magic story I wanted to again used themed names, but not invent them this time, but using existing names with magical background. Hence my main character is called Vermistra, also a rep to anyone who knows who Vermistra is/was.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 22, 2008)

Perdido Street Station? That and AG are far ahead everything else I have read as of late.


----------



## Serp (Sep 22, 2008)

Yes Perdido Street Station! 

Well AG has that perfect sense of surreal that my books are trying to achieve, admitted I have not finished it, nor gotton very far into it, but it has done what I am trying to get across into my stories.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 22, 2008)

Usually only my Japanese names have meaning.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 22, 2008)

If you want to take something out of PSS then it's how to construct tragedies.

And the contemporary fantasy genre is at it's peak in AG, it has that balance of surreality you talk of Serp. And it just keeps getting better and better.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 22, 2008)

I took how to build a world.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I take after Herbert in that respect-mostly normal/very boring names but a fair few really odd ones as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...And talking of Herbert, Dune pretty much pisses on all other sci-fi i've read. Then again, Dune pretty much pisses on everything that isn't LotR.



I guess that I need to check out Dune. But the naming thing is kind of a preference issue. Even when I used the names of real people I knew, they were hardly ever just the common names like Bob or Jack. It was always something more exotic just because I have so many friends with names like that. 

There are some names that I would like to use though just because I really like them, such as the name _Sally_. I am not sure what it is about that name but I really like it. 

I tend to prefer medium length names, names that I can shorten into something else..._ Julianna, Ashley, Penelope, Prentiss, Jonathan _and things like that.


----------



## Tiger (Sep 22, 2008)

I didn't like Dune.

*shrug*


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 22, 2008)

Sometimes people talk a book or movie up too much and I get to it...and I am like so what. 

But that didn't happen with Watchmen...


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 22, 2008)

Eddy said:


> I didn't like Dune.
> 
> *shrug*



It just not click?



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Sometimes people talk a book or movie up too much and I get to it...and I am like so what.
> 
> But that didn't happen with Watchmen...



It kind of half happened with me to Watchmen. The story didn't resonate and it was badly paced, but otherwise really remarkably done.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 22, 2008)

I prefer Transmetropolitan to Watchmen.


----------



## Batman (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't get the wow effect of Watchmen. It was good and interesting but I'm not blown away by too much of it.

Sandman on the other hand (which I finally borrowed) is fucking great.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 22, 2008)

It was different for it's time. It no longer wows because there are better comics now.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> It just not click?
> 
> 
> 
> It kind of half happened with me to Watchmen. The story didn't resonate and it was badly paced, but otherwise really remarkably done.



Oh yeah it is badly paced...actually the parts with the pirate story, while they are well done foreshadowing, are a bit much. 



Batman said:


> I don't get the wow effect of Watchmen. It was good and interesting but I'm not blown away by too much of it.
> 
> Sandman on the other hand (which I finally borrowed) is fucking great.



I like Sandman more...


----------



## Tiger (Sep 22, 2008)

Hey Tyrael - do you think if I began the prologue with a bird's eye view of the city, then zoomed into the mother/daughter, plus added what the castle looked like when they leave the market - it would alleviate the blurriness?


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 22, 2008)

I think it would be fun if you just stripped it to dialogue and made it super cryptic.


----------



## Serp (Sep 22, 2008)

The more mindfuck the better, is Yu's general theory on things.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 22, 2008)

Which I'm finding to be ironic as I've been getting more on more detail on environments.


----------



## Tiger (Sep 22, 2008)

Well, my idea was I wanted the setting to be unimportant in the prologue, as long as the characters could carry it without that being an issue.

I may not have succeeded in that.


----------



## Batman (Sep 22, 2008)

Serp said:


> The more mindfuck the better, is Yu's general theory on things.



I just got a really funny image of a Yu "Wedding".


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 22, 2008)

As I said, unless everyone whom you've shown it to says the same thing, feel free to ignore me.

I reckon that could work, the birds eye thing. It'll give a more of a narrator feel going on and probably add to the dreamlike quality now that I think about it. I say knock up a short bit like that and see if it flows well into the piece.



Batman said:


> I just got a really funny image of a Yu "Wedding".


----------



## Serp (Sep 22, 2008)

Batman said:


> I just got a really funny image of a Yu "Wedding".



This is why we can't have nice things


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 22, 2008)

Batman said:


> I just got a really funny image of a Yu "Wedding".



I don't quite follow...


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 22, 2008)

Well, weddings are meant to be some sort of a real life extension of romantic fantasies. And if, in fantasy, the more the mindfuck the better...


----------



## Serp (Sep 22, 2008)

Guys for my Code geass RP and potential novel idea I have been looking up greek myths, and alot of shit there is awesome and fucked up at the same time. Finally Pegasus coming out of Riders neck in FSN makes sense, but it opened up a whole can of worms for me


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 22, 2008)

Prefer Egyptian. Ra came existence.


----------



## Serp (Sep 22, 2008)

I like Egyptian but prefer Greek, different strokes for different folks


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 22, 2008)

I've been stuffed with Greek mythology for most of my life. i caught my fill.

I need to do some short stories. I have techniques and stories I want to tell. Maybe I'll use this world I'm building.


----------



## Serp (Sep 22, 2008)

Ive been into mythology all my life, but I decided to dive deeper into one of them and I choose the one with Medusa


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 22, 2008)

I used to love Greek mythology. I should try looking at it again, closer.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 22, 2008)

As my name implies I have an interest in Chinese mythology.


----------



## Batman (Sep 22, 2008)

Too much greek myth in my life too, so many classical gods and heroes text books they made us read over and over and over. Antigone can kiss my 21st century ass.

I prefer Norse mythology and my own mythology. Cause I can make that shit up as I go along.


----------



## Serp (Sep 22, 2008)

Lol I thought I knew a fair share about the Greek mythos, but shit Like Medusa being Pegasus's mother and Pegasus being Theseus's half brother made me lol and aww   the good shit, they don't teach you when they are making you learn it as a child, feeding the watered down version, like a vaccination, you have a small shit amount and never return for the hardcore shit. Back when I was a Weeaboo  I used Japanese mythology for my little stories, but as I grew up I started to enjoy western supernatural tales. And then later I returned to Greece and Egypt to take an adults view of their myths.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 22, 2008)

I have to ask: beyond obsession with Japanese culture, is there anything else that makes a person a weeaboo?


----------



## Batman (Sep 22, 2008)

Whats a weeaboo?


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 22, 2008)

a weaboo is essentially the replacement term for wapanese which is slang for a white person who wanted to be Japanese 4chan took the word weaboo from the PBF comic and applied the word to the white anime otaku eventually extending it to all non-oriental asian anime fans.


----------



## sel (Sep 22, 2008)

Batman said:


> I just got a really funny image of a Yu "Wedding".



Instead of Pachelbels Canon as they walk down the aisle, Imagine some avant-garde metal.

Weeaboo = Wapanese. Just visit the pairing fanclubs and you'll see a few.


----------



## Batman (Sep 22, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> a weaboo is essentially the replacement term for wapanese which is slang for a white person who wanted to be Japanese 4chan took the word weaboo from the PBF comic and applied the word to the white anime otaku eventually extending it to all non-oriental asian anime fans.



ohhhhhhhhhhh


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I have to ask: beyond obsession with Japanese culture, is there anything else that makes a person a weeaboo?



Constantly proclaiming that one was born into the wrong culture. When choosing between hot nude girls, the Weeaboo will take the animated variety. Proclaims Japaense music to be the best in the world. Tries to act and pretends to be Japaense, even inserting Japanese words in everyday speech...



			
				Urban Dictionary said:
			
		

> Someone who is obsessed with Japan/Japanese Culture/Anime, etc. and attempts to act as if they were Japanese, even though they're far from it. They use Japanese words but usually end up pronouncing them wrong and sounding like total assholes. You can find alot of these ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) clogging up the forums of Gaia Online, hanging out in the international aisle of the supermarket, or crowding the manga section of your local bookstore. Synonym of .





			
				encyclopedia dramatica said:
			
		

> The *Wapanese* (also called "Japanophiles" or "Weeaboo") are, much like Wiggers, painfully clueless honkies trying to fill their cultural void by pretending *not to be* white -- in this case, by humping the giant Godzilla leg of the Land of the Rising Sun until assimilated into its culture, as if being Azn is some kind of acquired communicable disease. So badly do they wish this, in fact, that they are willing to dedicate entire afternoons to memorizing _up to five common phrases_ in Japanese, later misusing them at the mall or furry conventions. The main point of doing this is so that their grief of ronreyness and rejection from the local teething rich kiddies isn't noticed when they're hanging around retarded fucknuts.
> 
> 
> Most Wapanese think that Japan is a place where the trees are made of Pocky, cities are made of platinum PS3s and Nintendo Wiis, and the girls and Bishojos proclaim "ME SO HORRONY" and kneel to take Wapanese cock up the poop chute. Wapanese frequently go to sushi bars or the Panda Express in the food court (despite the fact that it's Chinese foodz), as well as Sanrio stores on a weekly basis. They are the bane of American youth.


----------



## Serp (Sep 22, 2008)

Weeaboo, _Otakus Weaboo_
Is a person, usually of white descent, who thinks Japan is the greatest thing since sliced bread, they love anything remotely Japanese, butcher the language with their feeble attempts at it. Try to inject japanese culture into their everyday lives, watch any anime available and claim it work of God, criticize anything that seems to be copying japan (Avatar). Add Chan and Kun to peoples names for no apparent reason. E.G most of the Noobs on this forum.


----------



## Chee (Sep 22, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Where do you guys go for names? I was using this random name generator just to see if I could come up with some good ideas and one of them stuck with me big time. So I am using it. So far the names I am using are _Jadon Cribbs_, his wife _Portia_, some of the old names that were favorites are staying like _Pellegri_.
> 
> Right now I am trying to think up more names to use in this whole mess. By the way, Portia was the one off the Name Generator.



I took one from an actor I like, some from family and the rest I make up.


----------



## Batman (Sep 22, 2008)

I only knew wapanese. So can I be a weeaboo even if I'm not white and . . . not that crazy? Or are those the two main criteria's especially the obsessive compulsive crazy one. I mean I like anime, sushi, and hot asian chicks.


----------



## sel (Sep 22, 2008)

CTK: Ones that sound nice to me. Rarely people I know though.


----------



## Serp (Sep 22, 2008)

I'm Black, my GF is asian, I like sushi, anime and would like to visit Japan someday but ATM I am far from weeaboo.  Glad those days have passed.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 22, 2008)

> painfully clueless honkies trying to fill their cultural void by pretending not to be white





It's funny because it's true.

Edit-is anyone else in this thread white except me?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 22, 2008)

Serp said:


> I'm Black, my GF is asian, I like sushi, anime and would like to visit Japan someday but ATM I am far from weeaboo.  Glad those days have passed.



I never was close to it, thank God. 



Tyrael said:


> It's funny because it's true.
> 
> Edit-is anyone else in this thread white except me?



Lol, if Eddy or Chee is here, they both are.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 22, 2008)

I'm black I'm writing a story with a ton of Japanese references. I can pronounce Japanese correctly. I would like to visit Japan one day but that's not special because I want to go anywhere that's not Ohio. I can list over 9000 30 Japanese surnames and I don't even speak the language.


----------



## Serp (Sep 22, 2008)

What is funny is that what I have now was my dream to have when I was a weeaboo . If I had the GF I have now back then, I would die a happy man. And also I now have an actual contact to live with in Japan (my cousin) I can go, but now that those days have past I'm in no rush


----------



## Chee (Sep 22, 2008)

I'm white.


----------



## Serp (Sep 22, 2008)

Chee said:


> I'm white.


Im so sorry Chee , you must have been born with it .


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 22, 2008)

I used to want to live in Japan. Then the whole crowdedness and expense issue came up. After that it was Germany. Achtung Baby! 

But in all seriousness my story is hyper weaboo.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 22, 2008)

Why?!?!?!?!


----------



## Batman (Sep 22, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I used to want to live in Japan. Then the whole crowdedness and expense issue came up. After that it was Germany. Achtung Baby!
> 
> But in all seriousness my story is hyper weaboo.



I want to visit Japan just so I an feel like blackzilla for a week . . . . . . I'm really tall.



			
				Ty said:
			
		

> Why?!?!?!?!


WTF?? :S Damn them.


----------



## Serp (Sep 22, 2008)

Blackzilla, I wanna be Blackzilla  it would be awesome 
My cousin who works and lives in Japan is like a millionaire, which I only found out about after I stopped being a weeaboo, is inviting my to visit like next year and is gonna gimme a Porsche to use while over there, Tokyo Drift . ^^

My Dads wife is Filipino, so at all her the family gatherings he is like 2ft taller than everyone


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 22, 2008)

Blackzilla. 

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that she is your step mother?


----------



## Pan-on (Sep 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> It's funny because it's true.
> 
> Edit-is anyone else in this thread white except me?



im almost literally white, Scottish skin woo. Actually im quite lucky i dont burn all that badly.


----------



## Serp (Sep 22, 2008)

Lol I live in a Jamaican household all my family members are Jamaican. Its just that my parents broke up and my dad is has now got yellow fever  Like I have  the apple doesn't fall far...


----------



## Pan-on (Sep 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Fair enough dude. There's nothing even slightly multi-cultural about my family. It's all Scottish, Scottish, Scottish, Scottish, Scottish.



i think i might be like 1 8th English and 1 8th Irish or something


----------



## Batman (Sep 22, 2008)

> Blackzilla, I wanna be Blackzilla it would be awesome
> My cousin who works and lives in Japan is like a millionaire, which I only found out about after I stopped being a weeaboo, is inviting my to visit like next year and is gonna gimme a Porsche to use while over there, Tokyo Drift .  ^^


Rich relatives are awesome!! XD . . . I hope to be one, one of these days. 

But damn a Porsche to use!! lol



Tyrael said:


> Fair enough dude. There's nothing even slightly multi-cultural about my family. It's all Scottish, Scottish, Scottish, Scottish, Scottish.



No Sco'ish?

My intrawez accents are querstionable.


----------



## Serp (Sep 22, 2008)

I have to finish my driving lessons and learn Japanese before I go there first 
But when I met him in Canada last year, he gave me his credit card and I went crazy in the clothes store ^^


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 22, 2008)

Being Scottish, I would never go crazy with money. Unless in a book shop...


----------



## Pan-on (Sep 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Being Scottish, I would never go crazy with money. Unless in a book shop...



Amen


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 22, 2008)

What about golf and alcohol?


----------



## Serp (Sep 22, 2008)

Alcohol, I think your referring to the Irish


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 22, 2008)

Serp said:


> Alcohol, I think your referring to the Irish



Haha, the Scots are up there though. We might even be able to compete with the Irish on that front.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 22, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Haha, the Scots are up there though. We might even be able to compete with the Irish on that front.



I think its just writers...shit I am drinking right now...


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't drink.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't either. I just stockpile reasons why I should.


----------



## Batman (Sep 22, 2008)

I don't drink either. I just tell other people to. 


and damn heroes was awesome


----------



## sel (Sep 22, 2008)

You lucky American fool. I'll have to wait a few hours until it's up on the net.


----------



## Batman (Sep 22, 2008)

I would take our one good primetime television show over your stable economy and good health care system any day of the week.


----------



## sel (Sep 22, 2008)

> stable economy



Haha. Good one. I don't think we'll see one of those for a long time.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 22, 2008)

Looks like someone hasn't kept up on their British economic news. 

On topic:My vision of my world is becoming clearer and clearer.


----------



## Batman (Sep 23, 2008)

Batman said:


> I would take our one good primetime television show over your *comparatively* stable economy and good health care system any day of the week.



Fixed***




> On topic:My vision of my world is becoming clearer and clearer.



Do I smell a finished product?

I'm finding story, slowly but surely. And it's terrible, but in that good way.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 23, 2008)

Not even close. I've been redoing the intro. So technically, I guess it is a new rewrite. But I'm finally satisfied with an opening after so many years. I had a lot of trouble envisioning the opening areas and it was having an affect on some events. They ended up being less grandiose than I was capable of. I think I've finally struck home with a worthy intro with enough emotional and visual oomph to kick off the story. 
Another problem I've had a long time with is the illogical nature(Not the good kind of illogical. The forced hand illogical) of certain character relationships.


----------



## Batman (Sep 23, 2008)

I couldn't last on a single project as long as you. I just couldn't do it. I'm sure my work will suffer accordingly.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 23, 2008)

If there's one thing that could be said about me, its that I'm persistent.


----------



## Pan-on (Sep 23, 2008)

Batman said:


> I couldn't last on a single project as long as you. I just couldn't do it. I'm sure my work will suffer accordingly.



i have similar issues


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 23, 2008)

I've put my long term project away for the moment and hope I don't forget it. CA took a hell of a lot of time, 3 yrs, and I ain't giving up on it.


----------



## sel (Sep 23, 2008)

I can guarantee you all I'm much worse than sticking to projects than any of you are. It's the same as when I try to learn a piece of music -- learn about a quarter (max) before I just forget about it for ages.

That's why I'm suited to lovely short-term FF's =D


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 23, 2008)

sel said:


> I can guarantee you all I'm much worse than sticking to projects than any of you are. It's the same as when I try to learn a piece of music -- learn about a quarter (max) before I just forget about it for ages.
> 
> That's why I'm suited to lovely short-term FF's =D



Unfortunately, I don't think your alone there. Still, I try the long game 'cause it can be damn rewarding when you finally get through a story.


----------



## Tiger (Sep 24, 2008)

Twice I have written half a novel and scrapped it. It's not always a matter of misplacing it, or losing interest - sometimes you just wake up and realize "Hey, this is really not good."


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 24, 2008)

I'm against scrapping anything fully on those grounds, but I have went back to the start numerous times with CA. If you can tell it right, or make adjustments, anything can turn out right. That said, there's a point you have to write it and say that is that, for better or for worse.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 24, 2008)

I tend to save alot of things in wordpad documents and look at them and preserve elements I like from them.


----------



## Batman (Sep 24, 2008)

I wonder if I'll ever be satisfied with anything I write as a whole. Quite the challenge.


I also don't believe in scrapping things. I also don't believe in crossing things our until they're illegible. There might be gold in them thar hills down the line.


I just reworked the opening paragraph for my first book and I think I died a little inside.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 24, 2008)

Batman said:


> I wonder if I'll ever be satisfied with anything I write as a whole. Quite the challenge.
> 
> 
> I also don't believe in scrapping things. I also don't believe in crossing things our until they're illegible. There might be gold in them thar hills down the line.
> ...



It bad, or what such an act represents?


----------



## Batman (Sep 24, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> It bad, or what such an act represents?



Nah, it's better. But it felt like a parent replacing their child with the child they always wanted.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 24, 2008)

Batman said:


> Nah, it's better. But it felt like a parent replacing their child with the child they always wanted.



Ah, so what it represents then? I have to say, that's quite a brutal thought.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 24, 2008)

I was wondering, does anyone think that its too much to ask for to think that a relationship in the story I am working on is between someone much younger and much older? I haven't really begun that section of the story yet, but I was just wondering if it would distract from other things in the story.


----------



## Batman (Sep 24, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I was wondering, does anyone think that its too much to ask for to think that a relationship in the story I am working on is between someone much younger and much older? I haven't really begun that section of the story yet, but I was just wondering if it would distract from other things in the story.



Not in my eyes. Just make sure you have it do what you want it to do.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 24, 2008)

Go for it dude, it's hardly even a controversial dude unless it is paedophilia.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 24, 2008)

I have something similar. Though mine is more of the Rahxephon dilemma.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 24, 2008)

Batman said:


> Not in my eyes. Just make sure you have it do what you want it to do.



Well the thing is I don't really want that taking center stage...but I think I might be able to down play it. 



Tyrael said:


> Go for it dude, it's hardly even a controversial dude unless it is paedophilia.



Yeah she's seventeen, so its not like she's way underage, she's just slightly so. And in the fictional world that they live in, it will be one of the lesser moral lapses. The guy is also a former priest.


----------



## Tiger (Sep 25, 2008)

It would be a mistake to ignore it, but there's no reason it has to be a focal point. There's no reason she would be telling everyone she met that she was 17. If the two characters feel it's ok, then it will be. It DOES say something about them, whether you like it or not, you can't control that.

But if the story has them sticking together against much more intense and present conflicts...obviously they're not going to sit there and dwell on an age difference. The truth is, the world doesn't truly care about an age difference unless it's illegal. And the reader will be like "ooh, he likes them young" and then carry on with the rest of the story.


----------



## piratej62 (Sep 25, 2008)

hey guys! i just found this thread and im been having the idea of starting to write a novel. im working on writing my characters and plots right now. i love exchanges ideas so if anyone just wants to talk about their novels just pm or whatever


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 25, 2008)

Eddy said:


> It would be a mistake to ignore it, but there's no reason it has to be a focal point. There's no reason she would be telling everyone she met that she was 17. If the two characters feel it's ok, then it will be. It DOES say something about them, whether you like it or not, you can't control that.
> 
> But if the story has them sticking together against much more intense and present conflicts...obviously they're not going to sit there and dwell on an age difference. The truth is, the world doesn't truly care about an age difference unless it's illegal. And the reader will be like "ooh, he likes them young" and then carry on with the rest of the story.



Eh, thinking back it might come to a point when her father finds out, but that's to be expected with that. I just don't want my reader finding it disturbing to the point they can't read it. 
 


piratej62 said:


> hey guys! i just found this thread and im been having the idea of starting to write a novel. im working on writing my characters and plots right now. i love exchanges ideas so if anyone just wants to talk about their novels just pm or whatever



Dude, where are you posts? 

And we do talk in here alot, this is probably the most active thread in this section of the site, so if you have any questions or need advice, feel free to pose them.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 25, 2008)

If you're not making your reader uncomfortable you're not doing it right. That's my mantra.


----------



## piratej62 (Sep 25, 2008)

> Dude, where are you posts?
> 
> And we do talk in here alot, this is probably the most active thread in this section of the site, so if you have any questions or need advice, feel free to pose them.


thanks i'll be posting on here once i get some my ideas straight... i haven't really been serious about writing a book till here lately so im still working out the bugs in my head but im going to post some stuff in a couple of days. anyway my story is going to be about monsters, vampires..ect..im thinking about having it in the present time, well thats kinda where im headed im also strongly thinking turning my "hero" evil at some point and time. so let me know what ya think yay or nay..im trying to not make it to generic...and about my post you mean overall?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 25, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> If you're not making your reader uncomfortable you're not doing it right. That's my mantra.



Depends on the genre or type of book...if I was writing a children's book the last thing I want is to make the reader uncomfortable. No one rule can blanket the entire realm of writing. I might just want to make people think, renew hope in the human spirit or some of that...


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## Lord Yu (Sep 25, 2008)

I'm not a children's book author.(Well technically I do have that children's book published but) Hope is found at the bottom of chaos.


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## Batman (Sep 25, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Hope is found at the bottom of chaos.



and at a strip club in Des Moines.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 25, 2008)

Batman said:


> and at a strip club in Des Moines.



Nothing good has *ever *been found in Des Moines.


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## VK377 (Sep 25, 2008)

It takes me a long time to rewrite anything. I'm always worried that something important will be lost, but my work always benefits from it so I can't complain. 
Guess I just need to suck it up and get used to the backspace key. 

Maybe I should write down what is pertinent information and what isn't, so when I come back to it later I am not paranoid that every sentence I am deleting could screw up the whole plot.


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## Batman (Sep 25, 2008)

VK377 said:


> It takes me a long time to rewrite anything. I'm always worried that something important will be lost, but my work always benefits from it so I can't complain.
> Guess I just need to suck it up and get used to the backspace key.
> 
> Maybe I should write down what is pertinent information and what isn't, so when I come back to it later I am not paranoid that every sentence I am deleting could screw up the whole plot.



If someone removed a cup of water from the ocean would you notice?


As long as you know the overall scope, direction, theme, important points, etc. your editing can (for the most part) only help. Don't be so hesitant to change.


----------



## VK377 (Sep 25, 2008)

Batman said:


> If someone removed a cup of water from the ocean would you notice?
> 
> 
> As long as you know the overall scope, direction, theme, important points, etc. your editing can (for the most part) only help. Don't be so hesitant to change.



Yeah, I see what you mean.
I didn't mean for it to come across that I was hesitant to change. Editing is very important and I understand that. 

But who is to say what is a cup?
A cup for me may be far more to someone unfamiliar to my work. Being the writer of the work, things that may seem obvious might not be as obvious as I would like to think. By removing something that I think to be nonessential I  could very well distort what it is I am trying to get across.  
I just don't want to harm the integrity of the story for the reader. 

Suppose I just need more practice...


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 25, 2008)

I'm bad at editing. I'm good at being critical and scrapping stuff, but I tend not to be able to actively edit. That said, my pacing before meant cutting stuff out didn't really make sense. It's best to write too much then cut shit out.


----------



## sel (Sep 25, 2008)

My editing comprises solely of

1) Do nothing
2) Ctrl+A, Backspace, flee


----------



## Batman (Sep 25, 2008)

VK377 said:


> Yeah, I see what you mean.
> I didn't mean for it to come across that I was hesitant to change. Editing is very important and I understand that.
> 
> But who is to say what is a cup?
> ...



A cup is a cup is a cup. It might be a big cup, but it can only get so big before it becomes a pail. Just like a sentence can only get so big before it's a paragraph, or a page. But that's not the important part what I'm trying to say. I'm speaking under the assumption that we're talking the same size cup. And when compared to the ocean, it's small.

You said that you are second guessing your own edits, wondering if that sentence that you just deleted might be more important than it is. But from my perspective, it sounds like 'seller's remorse'. You regret it because its gone.

If it's an important sentence, you'll know it and you probably wouldn't delete it to begin with. Your giving the cup importance only because you no longer have it.

You can always get another cup.


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## Tyrael (Sep 25, 2008)

^Agreed. Most of my edits are made of rephrasing rather than deleting anyway.

Or be post modern and cut out things that are important because they are important. Cut half of your story and expect the readers to guess the other half.



sel said:


> My editing comprises solely of
> 
> 1) Do nothing
> 2) Ctrl+A, Backspace, flee



You forgot steps 3 and 4:

3) ???
4) Profit!


----------



## VK377 (Sep 25, 2008)

Batman said:


> A cup is a cup is a cup. It might be a big cup, but it can only get so big before it becomes a pail. Just like a sentence can only get so big before it's a paragraph, or a page. But that's not the important part what I'm trying to say. I'm speaking under the assumption that we're talking the same size cup. And when compared to the ocean, it's small.
> 
> You said that you are second guessing your own edits, wondering if that sentence that you just deleted might be more important than it is. But from my perspective, it sounds like 'seller's remorse'. You regret it because its gone.
> 
> ...



When you put it that way it makes more sense. 
I just started trying to write recently so I am not very experienced. Perhaps I am just making this harder than it truly is. 
What approach do you generally take when you are editing?


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 25, 2008)

What are you editing?


----------



## Garfield (Sep 25, 2008)

Batman said:


> A cup is a cup is a cup.


My cup is a coconut!





> You can always get another cup.


Or one can always get another opinion 




PS: there might or might not have been indefinite amounts of sarcasm.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 25, 2008)

But is that coconut a psycho-Freudian metaphor?


----------



## VK377 (Sep 25, 2008)

A fantasy novel. 
Forgive my ignorance, but does what I am editing affect the way I must edit it? I thought it was all the same.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 25, 2008)

*Epitaph*

I was working on this basically most of the morning, needs some work but I am having a lot of fun with it so far and its getting pretty good reviews from the three people that have read it thus far. 



*Spoiler*: __ 



The slight rattle of the work bench knocking into the wall sent ripples of noise throughout the dimly lit garage. Between the inherited and unused power tools that hung on the peg board and the car pulled tightly into the area of the garage, there wasn?t much space for the lone figure of Jadon Cribbs. He muttered and cursed as he sought to find what had fallen down behind the work bench more than fifteen minutes ago. 

 His muscular arms flexed, barely able to fit into the space they were allotted. For a man in his very late thirties he was remarkably athletic. The item that he searched for was not just out of reach but out of sight as well. It had rolled before he could see it. More than likely it ended up somewhere in the darkest area of the corner. 

 Jadon had been cleaning his gun, as he had done many times over the last decade. He?d bumped the table and lost his silencer to the floor. The piece had rolled away before he?d even gotten to see it. Normally he?d move the car out, get a flash light and possibly move the heavy work bench. But as it approaching two forty in the morning, he knew it would possibly wake someone. 

 For just a moment he thought of all the places it could have rolled to. This was a rather large garage, yet it was very well kept. Not because of his attentiveness or that of anyone else. His garage was hardly ever used. The car was parked there, true. Besides that, most of the things stored there were never used. They were items just kept out of the way; power tools, tools in general, bicycles and old yard toys. These things that were not in regular use by anyone. 

 And then off in one corner stood the large black monolith of the gun locker, made with a key code combination to keep people out. It was probably the only regularly used thing in the garage besides the car. 

 Jadon started to rock the table, working it out of the corner. It bumped the wall slightly as it moved. At the sound of the door opening he stopped and went to move out from under the bench. It took him a moment to get back to where he could see the door. 

 A petite and slender figure stood in the doorway with one little hand balled up on her hip and the other grasping the knob. She sighed, her hair is an explosion of red curls silhouetted by the light from the television playing inside of the house behind her. She lifted her thick black rimmed glasses and rubbed the sleep from her eyes, ?You left me on the couch,? her voice was barely audible against the 
back drop of the hot water heater and the ambient noise from the television.

    ?You were knocked out,? Jadon said as he started to move the work bench with more force now. 

 Her glasses fell back into place as she stepped through the door, ?Not at first,? there was a hint of anger in her voice, the same way you can taste the metal in water in water that?s been held in tin. Now she leaned back on the car, her Porsche, one shapely leg propped up until she formed the shape of the number four and glared down at him. ?A woman doesn?t sit down on the couch sans-panties to watch Seinfeld reruns with her husband not expecting some sort of attention,? she was more awake now. 

    Jadon scoffed, ?It was my favorite episode,? he started, ?I hardly noticed?? 

    She pushed herself back up onto the car, ?Well,? she started, ?You know it now.? 

    As he continued to search under the bench he spoke back to her, ?It?s Tuesday?? 

 In an instant she was down on the cold concrete floor of the garage, her feet slapped against the ground and the door slammed shut with a rush of cool air and the sound of her grunting in anger. 

 That very same rush of air forced the silencer out from its hiding place and back into Jadon?s waiting hand. As he plucked it up he worked his way back to his feet. He stopped to check the silencer and blew the dust off of it before fastening it back onto his gun. As he rocked the gun back and forth between his hands checking the balance he could tell that something was slightly off. 

 Slowly he brought the gun up as if he was about to fire, checking the sights and looking down across the top of the barrel and at the garage door. With a sigh he placed the gun down on the table, ?Shit?I?ll fix it later.?

 Before he could head inside the phone in his side pocket vibrated, he plucked it free and opened it against his ear, ?Go ahead.? 

    ?Hey,? came the very familiar voice buried in static, ?we?ve got a situation??

    ?Virgil?? Jadon said as he leaned against the wall, ?I can barely hear you?where are you?? 

    Virgil spoke, ?Bolivar Peninsula.?

    ?Which part?? asked Jadon.

    ?Crystal beach,? he started, ?We?ve got a big issue.? Static was all there was for a moment, ?Megan said to call you...?

    Jadon sighed and rubbed his hand back over his shaved head, ?That?s a bit of a drive?? he said.

    ?I know,? Virgil said, ?I?ll text you the coordinates, just get your ass out here and bring the ?equipment?.?

 ?Okay,? he hung the phone up as he headed back into the house. The television was still playing as he made his way across the tile floor to turn it off. The set itself was affixed to the wall on large bolts. He turned and walked down the hall past the kitchen and up to the door of his bedroom. 

 The house was dark and quiet now. Jadon would usually hear his oldest daughter?s computer playing through her playlist upstairs, but there was nothing. The girls were out of town, staying with their grandmother and expected back tomorrow. Right now, he and his wife were alone. When they were alone, that was when they were at their worst.

 As he opened the door to the room the light from the street was the only source of illumination. The floor in the bedroom was wood paneled and slightly warmer than the tile in the rest of the house. It happened to be an unseasonably cold night, especially for Sugarland, Texas. The bedroom was silent besides the slight sounds emitting from his wife where she lay on the large bed. 

 He made is way over to the chair and grabbed his shirt, slipping it back over his body. He looked to where his wife lay. She still wore the T-Shirt, her body on top of the covers and the pillow wrapped tightly in her arms and balled up under her. As he moved closer he reached out and ran his hand down the back of his wife?s leg, ?Portia, honey?? 

    She snatched her leg back, ?Please, just don?t?? 

    ?I?m trying to apologize,? he said, ?I honestly didn?t notice what you were wearing.? 

    ?It?s fine,? she started, ?I don?t expect you to.?

 Jadon sighed while rubbing the back of his head, he started to say something but there were no words that he could feel right now. Though muffled against the pillow, he could hear her crying now. He could guess why, it had been months since they?d had sex, probably a week since they?d kissed. 

    ?I have to go out now,? Jadon said reluctantly, ?I?ll try to be back before sun up.? 

 Portia turned, ?We both have off tomorrow,? she said, ?We should try to spend some of it together before we go to pick up the kids??

 ?Okay,? he said. On the small bedside table Jadon found his keys and wallet. Then he spotted something sticking out of the top of her purse. Jadon reached down and slipped the pack of Lucky Strikes out of the purse and back into his pocket, ?I?ll be back when I can.?

 Jadon headed for the door, as his hand touched the knob he glanced back at his wife. Maybe this time together was just what they needed, maybe it would repair the damage that had been done to some extent. Then again it wasn?t like they didn?t see each other, they worked and lived together. 

    Despite how much they saw each other, they were always alone.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 25, 2008)

The other half: 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Crystal Beach was on the Western end of a peninsula that jutted out across almost reaching to Galveston Island. It was on these balmy shores that the tide ebbed up into the sand unabated until it reached the higher reaches of the beach. Jadon made his way down from the shoulder of the road onto the loose sand. 

The sky was nearly cloudless, every star seemed to be present and the moon illuminated the beach. Out at the edge of the surf there stood three figures gathered around something furry, half buried in the sands. The tide rolled up and lapped at the edges of the thing in the sand and one of the figures. 

 Jadon flicked a Lucky Strike off to the side as he neared them, the glowing orange ember at the end of the cigarette streaked like the lights in a time lapse photo as it sailed down into the sand. He rubbed his fingers together to help get some of the tar off of them. There was a wall of tall grass guarding the beach, he pushed through it and called out to the most familiar of the figures. 

    ?Virgil,? he called, ?What do we have here?? Jadon slipped his hands into his pockets.

 Virgil was substantially shorter than Jadon, with dark skin and long jet black hair that was pressed straight. In this low light the only thing distinguishing about him was his long hair and his small round glasses, ?I thought you?d quit?? 

    Jadon shot him a glance and shook his head, ?Who the fuck do you think I am?? 

    Virgil chuckled, ?Seriously though?I don?t know what we have.? 

 The woman next to him was tall, slender; with that 1980s super model build. Her body thin, her arms slender and lacking definition. Her hair caught the light of the moon as it was a silver-ish blond, her eyes seemed to glow as she turned toward Jadon, ?Look closer at the body?? her voice was monotone. 

 Jadon knelt in the sand and studied the creature that lay there, it looked like an impossibly large wolf, its face gnarled and twisted though. Its fur matted with thick black blood and sand. The thing?s eyes were wild, still darting around and glaring into the faces of the people that stood over it. Its behemoth chest rose and fell slowly with each breath. The creature still lived. 

 As Jadon studied it, his eyes traveled the length of its canine body and fell on the tail. Its tail was dark and furless. Even in the lackluster moonlight Jadon could see the hints of scales, it was the tail of a serpent?

    ?Amon?? Jadon had to get back to his feet, this close to the body the smell of sulfur was overwhelming. 

    The woman with the white blond hair nodded, ?The Demon Amon?Marquis of Hell?? she said.

    ?I don?t see what the issue is then, Claudia,? Virgil said, ?Someone did us a Hell of a favor.?

 Across from Claudia the other figure stood with a bottle of Jack Daniels dangling from his hand, his hair was a spiked blonde mess and he burped as he spoke, ?Think you could have cleaned this shit up without us here to hold your hand, Love?? he addressed Claudia.

 ?Stroud, Virgil, maybe you don?t see the significance here, but I am sure that Jadon will tell you that just seeing a Demon of this stature topside is rare?seeing one dead is?? 

 ?Totally new,? Jadon cut her off, ?Although I can?t complain, I happened across this Fucker about three years back and he nearly killed me?left me in the hospital for a week and a half.? 

    ?This is him?? Virgil said.

    Jadon nodded, ?The books don?t tell you, he breaths fire?a lot.?

    ?What could have done this to him,? asked Stroud.

 ?Something or someone you don?t want to tangle with,? Claudia said, ?It looks as if there was mysticism involved, I found hoofer dust.?

 Jadon sighed, ?Being in his regular form would make him susceptible to being killed, Demons like this usually only come up to possess someone or make good on a sacrifice?? he said, ?In corporeal form they?re weak.? 

    ?I never did understand this shit,? Stroud said.

 ?Pretty much anything that manifests itself in corporeal form can be killed,? Claudia explained as she dipped her hands into her skirt pockets, ?Why the Hell did you come then?? She pushed her hair out of her face.

 Stroud straightened his pajama pants some, ?Representing the wife, she couldn?t be here.? Stroud was married to their boss, but he didn?t actually report to her. ?Why are you here??

    ?Had to confirm that this wasn?t one of our people,? Claudia said, ?The Council gets mad if we act out of turn?? 

 The body stirred more now, there was a hot wind from seemingly nowhere and a voice imbued the night coming everywhere at once. It was actually three voices, one male, one female and one almost animalistic and inhuman in every way, except that it spoke English. The voices were thrashed together and seemed to ride on the angry hot wind. 

 ?Help?me,? the voices rasped and then there was a gargle from the creature on the ground, ?Please?have mercy.? Stroud and Virgil searched for a source of the voice, but it was to no avail. 

 Jadon drew his weapon, a fifty caliber Desert Eagle. The gun was massive in his hand as he took aim on the creatures head. He steadied the gun and waited a moment as every stepped back, then he put his foot up onto the creatures chest rolling it over. 

    ?Please?? the voice came again.

 The gun shot broke the air, cutting through the sound of the waves and the wind. The first fifty caliber round pounded through the head of the best with a crack and a small gush of fluid. The beast screeched expelling a small ball of flames as it writhed about. The next six shots were quick, precision placed, two more in the head, two in the upper torso and one in the hind legs. Bullets this size would cut clear through the body, but these were soft silver, they?d break up and fragment into the body. 

    That much silver in a Demon this weak would be fatal.

 The creature lay on the ground seizing, its mouth foaming as the waves ebbed in and back out. Jadon stepped back from the beast to watch, it jerked and moved, flailing wildly for a moment more and then fell still. Now he examined his gun, it had popped open when all the bullets were expelled, ?We?ve still got to get rid of this body,? he said.

    ?I trust you brought the stuff?? Virgil asked.

 Jadon slipped his pistol back into his holster and headed up the beach, ?This isn?t the first time I?ve done this,? he said in a matter-of-a-fact tone, ?Let?s get this done with.?


----------



## sel (Sep 25, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> You forgot steps 3 and 4:
> 
> 3) ???
> 4) Profit!



I swear to god that's the only usage of that meme which has actually made me laugh. 

CTK: I'll give it a read in a while and drop my thoughts in this thread later on.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 25, 2008)

VK377 said:


> A fantasy novel.
> Forgive my ignorance, but does what I am editing affect the way I must edit it? I thought it was all the same.



Well, if it's a short story then your fears are more justified as each sentence could hold value. But if it's a whole novel then that only becomes more applicable if you're cutting out vast swathes of the text seemingly randomly. The overarching structure of a book means that you aren't focused so much on the sharpness, though obviously not ignoring it, as the development and consistency.


----------



## Batman (Sep 25, 2008)

CX said:


> Or one can always get another opinion



 . . . . .   . . . . . . .


----------



## Apollo (Sep 25, 2008)

I wrote a book, but J.D. Salinger stole my notes.


----------



## Garfield (Sep 25, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> But is that coconut a psycho-Freudian metaphor?



It's a psychopathic Freudian lisp 

Or maybe not considering I'm not gay.



Batman said:


> . . . . .   . . . . . . .



What animu is that from :amazed


----------



## sel (Sep 25, 2008)

Apollo said:


> I wrote a book, but J.D. Salinger stole my notes.



He'd actually have to come out of hiding to do that!


----------



## Garfield (Sep 25, 2008)

Oh and along the lines of what Apollo said, 

Sel switched the Flashfics that me and him were supposed to post, so actually mine's better than his


----------



## Batman (Sep 25, 2008)

Apollo said:


> I wrote a book, but J.D. Salinger stole my notes.



That bastard stole my bike. And it was a bat-bike, shit was like eleventy billion dollars.



			
				CX said:
			
		

> What animu is that from


Clannizle [Clannad]  The gifs however are from some poor soul's sig.


----------



## Garfield (Sep 25, 2008)

Can we have the next Flashfic idea as Cars?


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 25, 2008)

I still find the idea of it being Naruto rather amusing. At this rate looks like it'll be a painting though.


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## sel (Sep 25, 2008)

I want a Will & Grace themed one.


----------



## Garfield (Sep 25, 2008)

There's already the fanfic section for Naruto, why bring it in here?


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 25, 2008)

For the sheer awkwardness that will be apparent in everyone's attempts not to write fanfiction.

And I've never actually seen Will and Grace so that would be challenging. Would be funny though.


----------



## Garfield (Sep 25, 2008)

Magnum P.I. would be funnier though


----------



## Batman (Sep 25, 2008)

I want one about this girl.


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## Tyrael (Sep 25, 2008)

Batman said:


> I want one about this girl.



I think we have a winner.


----------



## sel (Sep 25, 2008)

I'd only need 4 words, not 400.

_"I wanna hit that!"_

Marks out of 10 lads?


----------



## Serp (Sep 25, 2008)

Mythology themed one, if so I might actually try to write some thing quality


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## Batman (Sep 25, 2008)

selsword said:
			
		

> I'd only need 4 words, not 400.
> 
> _"I wanna hit that!"_
> 
> Marks out of 10 lads?



Easily 11/10 



			
				Serpentine said:
			
		

> Mythology themed one, if so I might actually try to write some thing quality



I wouldn't be averse to something like this either.


----------



## Tiger (Sep 26, 2008)

sel said:


> I'd only need 4 words, not 400.
> 
> _"I wanna hit that!"_
> 
> Marks out of 10 lads?



I got one: 


"She my baby mama"


----------



## Batman (Sep 26, 2008)

you ever had an idea so good you feel like you're keeping a secret?


----------



## Tiger (Sep 26, 2008)

My "Blind immortal" character. /nod


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 26, 2008)

Batman said:


> you ever had an idea so good you feel like you're keeping a secret?



Do regale us without so we may steal praise it.


----------



## Pan-on (Sep 26, 2008)

sel said:


> I'd only need 4 words, not 400.
> 
> _"I wanna hit that!"_
> 
> Marks out of 10 lads?



69/10


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 26, 2008)

How goes the writing Anon?


----------



## Pan-on (Sep 26, 2008)

iv not gotten back into the swing of things, been a bit busy lately with uni starting and people moving in and what have you. But now I have my timetable I have no excuse about finding a job/writing


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 26, 2008)

I'm feeling extra creative tonight. I keep feeling new legends and technology for my world building.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 26, 2008)

Does the fact that I find world building pointless make me a traitor as a fantasy fan? I mean, I can appreciate it in other works, but I don't set much stock by it.

I don't like sequels either.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 26, 2008)

I have a similar approach to most stories I write. I design a basic land and it grows as my writing does. I don't explicit separate its creation from the actual storytelling.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 26, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> I have a similar approach to most stories I write. I design a basic land and it grows as my writing does. I don't explicit separate its creation from the actual storytelling.



My thoughts exactly-the world is a part of the story and only develops with the writing. There is world building, but it is inexorably meshed in with the character development and use of themes and so on.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 26, 2008)

I am first and foremost a character person. I want people to be alive in a living world. I want the reader to breath the world with the characters so they can better identify with them.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 26, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I am first and foremost a character person. I want people to be alive in a living world. I want the reader to breath the world with the characters so they can better identify with them.



That's easy for me...considering my world is mostly based on the real world...I love that I think about my set up most of all.


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## Taurus Versant (Sep 26, 2008)

My issue is that I keep forgetting to go into some description of what characters and landscapes look like, which leads to people being unable to immerse themselves in the story.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 26, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> My issue is that I keep forgetting to go into some description of what characters and landscapes look like, which leads to people being unable to immerse themselves in the story.



I have that same trouble too, only its that I don't know where to go into it. I remember it the whole time. I just don't know where to get to it.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 26, 2008)

I'm pretty obsessive I'll go right down to how the air taste sometimes.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 26, 2008)

I actually can find time to describe the setting...its just the people.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 26, 2008)

I'm especially poetic at describing people. Certain clothes I'm going to have to research though. But yeah people description is my strongest suit.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 26, 2008)

I'm pretty much stuck with fancy suits and dresses and then t-shirts, sweaters and jeans...its all dependent upon the character really. The clothing has to define the character, yet the clothing has to not be _too_ extravagant.

My research tends to be in high fashion;  Manolo Blahniks and the like because some of my characters are into those sort of things. I will admit, some fashion looks downright absurd. 

I don't know much about fashion, but I am looking for some consultants really.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 26, 2008)

I have all kinds of fashion from kimono to green suits to 18th century french outfits to original creations. I like to be absurd and theatric.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 27, 2008)

Right now my hardest project is going to be finding someone who knows a lot of designers and the like that I can look up and research to make the characters talking about clothes seem more authentic.


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## Batman (Sep 27, 2008)

I can't wait to right this piece I'm thinking about. I hope it blows my mind with scarcity of understanding and sharp vagueness that can only be found in that blurry period right before you wake up after a wet dream.

I also hope it's good.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 27, 2008)

Batman said:


> I can't wait to right this piece I'm thinking about. I hope it blows my mind with scarcity of understanding and sharp vagueness that can only be found in that blurry period right before you wake up after a wet dream.
> 
> I also hope it's good.



I know the feeling, I had it the other day when I started this latest story and it seems to have paid off. Early reviews seem favorable


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## Batman (Sep 27, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I know the feeling, I had it the other day when I started this latest story and it seems to have paid off. Early reviews seem favorable



A wonderful feeling. I hope to catch up with you in my endeavors. I might have to look into that early reader thing too. I almost never have anybody read my stuff until it's practically done, and then it's hard as hell to get feedback.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 27, 2008)

Batman said:


> A wonderful feeling. I hope to catch up with you in my endeavors. I might have to look into that early reader thing too. I almost never have anybody read my stuff until it's practically done, and then it's hard as hell to get feedback.



Well half of the people who read my early works are from this site: Littleblonepunk (Kat), Auraya, Non-Explody, Tyrael, and some others...


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## Lord Yu (Sep 27, 2008)

I have a hard time deciding what to show people. The only person I regularly show stuff too is too unskilled to give a decent critique.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 27, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I have a hard time deciding what to show people. The only person I regularly show stuff too is too unskilled to give a decent critique.



I use my facebook and my myspace to post stuff on too, I've actually attracted some attention from people I didn't even know who were writers. Its nice to actually come across someone who can be more objective because they don't know you.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 27, 2008)

I'd never post my stuff that publicly. Some poetry on devart and that (now discarded) intro on my blog.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 27, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I'd never post my stuff that publicly. Some poetry on devart and that (now discarded) intro on my blog.



Ugh, most writing on Deviant Art gets ignored anyway...acutally most things that aren't nudes get ignored and that annoys me. I posted one writing piece on there and that was it. 

Most of the time I post on Fiction Press or I distribute my stuff to people through MSN or AIM. I am thinking about using the Fiction Press betaReader program.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 27, 2008)

Ahh human nature.


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## Taurus Versant (Sep 27, 2008)

Do any of you guys actually post your stuff here? For critiques in its own thread? Like a story you just wrote for the sake of writing, not for publication?


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## Lord Yu (Sep 27, 2008)

I've posted poems before.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 27, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Do any of you guys actually post your stuff here? For critiques in its own thread? Like a story you just wrote for the sake of writing, not for publication?



To answer you: 



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I was working on this basically most of the morning, needs some work but I am having a lot of fun with it so far and its getting pretty good reviews from the three people that have read it thus far.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have edited since then, and there was more in the post after...


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## Taurus Versant (Sep 27, 2008)

I'm not talking about posting just a chapter for opinions. I'm talking about posting a full original story online.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 27, 2008)

*Spoiler*: _intro part 1_ 



Once upon tomorrow, a story begins. A tale of tragedy, a tale of devilish divine comedy. A clash of mind and soul forever wrapped in suffering. Here we hold the story of Auravelius both modern and old. For entertainment and delicacy, we start this story in the middle and work our way out. Now come enquirer before the blood runs cold...

We begin our preliminary in the hall of a God. A domed ceiling engraved with the image of fiery phoenix meets our eyes as we wander around a circular violet floor rimmed with gold. Around us stone impressions of men and women laughing and weeping in grotesque show extend from the walls. In the center of lay the subjects of our scene. First, we have the widow of  fallen immortal Ayrn, Michelle Cassidy with earthen complexion and raven hair covering a face of grief. To her left approaching the throne we have He of undying glory, He of eternal fire and light, Cyrus Auravelius, sitter of the Throne of Angels, Lord of this world, blessings unto Him. His flame colored hair dances as if caressed by wind, His steady gait reflect unending pride as He steps upon angel hands to turn and take seat in angelic embrace. He turns azure eyes as deep as time onto the woman before Him. A smile rises on rose lips ever so slightly creasing near glowing pallid cheeks. A voice as hypnotic as any birdsong floats from his lips.
Welcome, to my castle, my kingdom, my world. Cyriladen, Versatia, Alrusavera.
The woman stares up at him dark eyes filled not with awe but contempt.
Let's skip the theatrics and get straight to the point. Where did my daughter go?
Your daughter hmm? So much distress over a dead maid's whelp. Ah, but a child of the heart is as valuable as any child of the body. He taps down His right foot and floating orb of light appears. He moves His hand over the orb in a circular motion over and over causing it to spin He then pushes it ever so slightly moving it towards the floor. The orb bursts like a bubble on the floor turning it into a massive map. She's riiiight- He says as the map moves. Here! A spot glows on the map at the western point of a large continent. Oh my... He laughs. things just became interesting. 
What's that supposed to mean? Michelle snaps.
That is right in the middle of my sister's territory.
And?
She hates me.
So do I but that's not stopping me from working with you.
Her hatred is different and older than you my dear. If I just barged in and tried to talk to her, it could be the end of the world. His smile deepened as if that seemed an amusing prospect.
So what are you suggesting we do?
I'll call her up and see if I can set up a meeting. She may hate me but she didn't hate our brother. He may not have been the friendliest guy but he wasn't obnoxious enough to garner anything but her apathy. Let us just hope I can dig up something resembling sympathy in that long dead heart of hers and get her to agree to let you visit. His smile flattened to smug. I hope you are comfortable in a kimono.
A checkered floor a black and white spotted wall. What is with this hall? Michelle is escorted away by a surreal tuxedoed servant with no face. The hall had no doors but one, arbitrarily placed on the left wall at the far end. The door was simple and black with no doorknob. The servant walks up to it motions as a puppet master pulling on a string and pulls it open then bows. Michelle passes through the door. 
What awaited her was a bedroom with a checkered floor like the hall. The first thing Michelle noticed was the ornately designed window with violet mesh that cast the shadow of a butterfly on the floor. At the center of the left wall there was a canopied bed with lavish plum curtains and pink-hued screen, the sheets and pillows matched the curtains. Across from the bed sat a large shining oak armoire.   On the wall at each side of the bed a mural of two fiery angels holding swords stood guard over the resting. On the opposite wall right of the armoire was the bathroom. Inside the bathroom was, practically a personal bath house with choice of a marble bath large enough to swim in or a shower where the water come out of the mouth of an angel statue. The toilet was the simplest design, white porcelain with golden lines and cushioned seat. 
The door disappeared behind the servant. It opens its arms and a screen appears. On the screen words appear along with the singing voice of a female opera singer and seemingly improvised instrumental accompaniment.  This is your room. Inside the armoire are a number of outfits tailored for fashion and your personal comfort. The Master may take some time. If you wish you may explore the town. It is lovely I assure you! In this world it is every artist's dream to visit this town. The Master is well aware that you are a painter. Might I suggest? No implore you to look upon the flower of our world, Aeckendahlia! 
Though the servant made no attempt at poetry with it's song Michelle was curious. Very well, I guess I'll have a look.  
You won't regret your decision.  The screen disappeared and their surroundings changed to the top of a strange green tower under the night sky. At the top of the tower a maelstrom of artistic inspiration assaulted her senses. Architecture of seemingly impossible designs, plants, bizarre creatures, and gargantuan human structures contorting together in dance, animals crouched on vertical surfaces. On top of that, color glorious color, every color used in every way conceivable and ways logically inconceivable, but all brilliant. To nail the coup de grace, the whole city was arranged to form a giant flower. This was Aeckendahlia, City of Beauty, City of Knowledge, City of Aesthetic Divinity. She put her hand to her mouth and tears rolled down her face. Her mind drew blank and her legs turned to gel. 
A sketch book and a pen fall next to her. She seizes it like ravenous animal and begins to sketch at a furious pace.
It is the normal response My Lady. The servant sings.


We now cross the continent to that very spot where the child descended. To the site of a very curious looking Japanese styled temple. A quiet night, a woman dressed in a blue kimono casually patrols the courtyard. It's a dull task, more often then not one would find oneself either staring at one gate or one wall for nearly an hour to look busy. Of course, guard duty was an important job, but more for show. Nothing dangerous could attack Moonflower temple. This was the capitol under the close watch and protection of the Empress herself. Really the only point in guards were to keep perverts out. The penalty for any man stepping foot on the temple's grounds was death, yet for some reason men would still sneak in. However, the occurrences of these fool's journeys was close to once a century.  Made for great stories but terribly boring and virtually pointless work.
And then there were the arms. Big heavy spears most times. It may be traditional but it was more tiresome than proud. Made the unlucky girl's arm hurt fiercely come the end of a shift. Higher ranked Blue Birds (As they were lovingly nicknamed) got to carry swords at their waste. Lighter than the spears but could still cause an ache if you weren't careful. But that was when this guard here snuck on a sword when no one was looking. The real higher ups were supposed to have some kind of grueling super training. It made them super fast and super strong as rumors would have it. Usually though, after the training most women would go on to the imperial guard. 
This guard here wanted to undergo the training...until she heard it was potentially fatal. There were  also several rifles in the armory. Nice ones to, some even had scopes like the ones the military had. But those rifles were for emergencies. The guard would sometimes sigh and wish she could hold one of those rifles. But tonight wasn't an emergency. It was just another night. 
 And so, here she was stuck on pervert patrol heavy spear in hand. At least spring was in the air. The trees were already flowering a little. With that we have a quiet patrol with this guard sitting on the ground scratching her foot while at the same time trying to hold off her spear.



C&C


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## Lord Yu (Sep 27, 2008)

*Spoiler*: _part 2_ 



What is the point of all this? Its what's happening beyond the sphere of her vision in the center of the courtyard. A giant orb of distorted space charges the air. The guard rises so fast she nearly drops her spear. She points it toward the orb. Two figures emerge from the orb. A blood spattered corpse of a man embracing a young girl. The girl looks toward the guard. Silence...the girl pushes away from the man and charges toward the guard in tears. The guard lifts her spear and  the girl grabs her. The girl screams terrified, the man greyfaced and gaunt turns toward them dripping blood.
?Hey! Who are you!?? The guard shouts. The man shambles forward. ?Stop!? 
?Eridaltia.? The man whispers haggard. The girl screams again. A rough hand reaches toward them.?Eri...daltia.? Tears of blood fall from his silver eyes. The guard pushes the girl behind her and points her spear at the man.
?I said stop.? A piercing chill runs through her skeletal frame as she looks on the man. Parts of his flesh were torn away and bones were visible. Matted black hair covering most of his face seemed to obscure even more damage. His pace increased and the stability of his ramshackle assembly disturbed even more. 
He would not stop. The guards hands held tight on the spear. Thrust. Skewer. The guard had never killed anyone before. She was never really expected to have to. Usually when an intruder was found they would be subdued and sent to the Deathmaidens. They were supposed to do the dirty work. The spear was for intimidation. They trained you in it's use of course but you weren't supposed to need to use it. But tonight was an exception. That once beyond a lifetime moment. That moment virgin steel tasted flesh and blood. Less than a second stretched to an eternity. Flesh. Bone. Air. All the way through. 
Yet he stood.
He stared at the young girl with forlorn eyes not even noticing the spear through his chest. The guard takes hold of the girl, drops the spear and makes for the temple. The man pulls out the spear and gives chase. Blue blurs descend and cover him like a cloud. An upswell of black energy forces back the blue blurs revealing them to be women armed with swords dressed in the same blue kimono uniform as the guard.
In coordinated the blue birds strike at the black mass one after another with superhuman speed. The mass morphs and moves upward in the shape of a giant serpent. The  blue birds hack it to pieces and the pieces fly back to the main mass. The more they strike the more it heals. Unrelenting in its pursuit of the girl it charges for the temple. The guard takes the girl inside as more rush behind her to cover her escape. 
The first fatality occurs. One Blue Bird  missteps and finds herself devoured by the mass of energy. The mass reforms taking on some human-esque shadow form. Blue Birds swarmed everywhere around the courtyard. Injuries start to pile up, blood soaks the ground. A battle the likes of which not seen here in centuries since Rokuro Masakichi sacked the capitol and set fire to the temple. No matter how hard they fought the shadow would not slow.  The shadow enters the temple.
?Eridaltia.? That single word echoes through the temple. More Bluebirds descend, skewer him and scatter.

?Luedsein Suidsat!?
A shout and the monster is frozen along with the blades of five swords piercing his body. Around the reception hall people peek out of hiding. Casual nuns and lower ranked Bluebirds alike. Outside in the courtyard ten Bluebirds lay sprawled all over some injured some dead. Those armed approach with caution. A mournful aura exudes from the frozen figure. An unvoiced cry of agony echoes in the minds of those who come close. What is this spirit? They asked themselves. This malevolent entity. Where did it come from? Why was it after that girl? 
?What the hell is so important that you wake me up at three in the morning?? A new player arrives on the field. Near towering over everyone Aoi Ichikawa was an outstanding site in the crowd. Hair a mess, kimono loose and sword over her shoulder she hardly looked like the First Flower but it was early in the morning and they had almost literally dragged her out of bed. ? Hmmm, alright what do we have here?? She says approaching the frozen figure. ?From the looks of you all there's been some serious trouble.? She says pointing hilt of the sword at all the injured. ?I'm upping the training regimen for all of you after this.? The sword comes to the courtyard. ?Goddess, this is a massacre. What kind of beast could do this to my poor-? She's cut off by the scream. She pulls back grimacing. ?Bluebirds.? Her expression runs as cold as the figure before her. Cold blue eyes inherited from the Empress herself gaze upon and through the grotesque statue studying it track it's essence. ?Stand back everyone.? 
The scream of sorrow fills the room and everyone covers their ears. The ice shatters and everywhere people dive for cover. Aoi unsheathes her sword and with one swift movement ends it. The monster collapses alongside it's head. ?Just one last hit. You did well to weaken it enough. It's not dead though. Take it below. ? 

They told her the monster had arrived with a girl. She was rushed to the infirmary when they saw the blood that coated her. However, they found relief when the blood was revealed to be none of her own. Nothing could be learned from the girl about the monster as she spoke a strange language. 
After freshening up, Aoi enters the infirmary with a placative face.  She needed to know just what they were dealing with as soon as possible. That thing was strong. Even after all that damage it was still visibly healing.
The girl was sound asleep when she arrived in her room. Without a second thought she reached to wake her up. A doctor protested but she nudged her awake anyway. White hair and green eyes, is she Nazrati? She thought to herself. 
?Ferdzi kes Deyul?? Slightly rusty in her Deyul accent she throws it out. The girl stares at her confused. If not Nazrati...feh, I'll just take the quicker method. This is an emergency. 
Aoi puts her right hand to the girl's forehead. Aoi's hand glows with a golden light. She begins a low chant. The doctor shouts at her about ethics but she continues her chant  The girls eyes dilate. Aoi finishes. 
?Can you understand me?? Aoi asks. The girl shakes her head blinking fast and then nods. ?What is your name??
?Eridaltia.? The monster was calling for her. Wait, that name. It's  A'or.
?Where do you come from?? She couldn't possibly...
?London. Where is this?? Eridaltia said rubbing her eyes. Where is that?
?Moonflower Temple, Rin Valley, Anezaie.? Aoi tries to ease back into a softer tone. ? Are you hurt??
?No, just a little shaken up.? This girl is surprisingly calm after my language extraction spell. She must have some kind of resistance. There's definitely something seriously off about this girl.
?My name is Aoi Ichikawa. I am the First Flower of the Court of Flowers.?
?Nice to meet you. I'm sorry but I still have no idea where this is.?
?Do you know how you got here??
?No clue. It still feels like a really bad dream or a horror movie.? Eridaltia begins. ?I was on my way home when my driver hits this guy. Runs him over right good. Real bloody mess. We were all...can't even describe it. But, well so the driver gets out to look at the body. And he's like all mashed up from what I can see out the back window.  Wallace gone all powder. Um Wallace the driver. He jumped right in front practically but Wallace....err well to get on with it. The bloke starts moving and me and my teacher. I mean my teacher and I. Are all holy fu...?  She puts her hand over her mouth. ? Well, it goes completely Night of The Living Dead. His bones pop back into place and Wally brings out his gun and shoots him in the head. The guy hardly flinches. It's total madness, before long somehow Wally loses his hands. Blood spraying everywhere.? She makes a waving motion with her hands. ? Worse of all he looks toward us. I'm late ducking my head I guess and he catches a glimpse of me. I swear when he said my name. I don't think I've ever been so scared in my life...not since my parents died. I thought I was gonna die.? She starts shaking. ? After that my teacher Ms. Manning. She dove for the driver's seat. But he was already at the car. Wally tried to slow him but...but the blood. He was bleeding out fast.? Tears sparkled in her eyes. It was finally registering. ? He got to Ms. Manning. I...? Her voice broke. ? I don't know what he did but she fainted.  He...came after me.? Delirium racked her voice. Aoi slid out a hand and she gripped it. ?His eyes they were looking straight at me. I backed away...I a mm..managed to get the door open. I fell out the back. He...chased me...I was frozen when I hit the road. My legs. Wouldn't go . I crawled away but he caught me. He took me in.? Tears and snot streamed down. The grip of her small hand was as tight as it could go. ?The smell. The smell!? She shook her head furiously as Aoi embraced her. ? He smelled like death. I hate it! I hate it!? Nothing more. Just sobs soaking Aoi's shoulder.





Leaving up for the night. Or 2 hours depending on how paranoid I get.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 27, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> I'm not talking about posting just a chapter for opinions. I'm talking about posting a full original story online.



Oh, well all my stuff is original now. I stopped writing fan fiction in High school. I have thought about it since then but never acted on it seriously. 

But to answer that question there is this: 


Plenty of my original stuff is there and a few complete stories.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 27, 2008)

roffle messed up your link. 



Fortunately I happen to have it bookmarked. Despite not having read a thing.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 27, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> roffle messed up your link.
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately I happen to have it bookmarked. Despite not having read a thing.



Eh...I don't get this permalink vs regular link thing. They give you two and I used the top one, I guess I will go change it, thanks.


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## Tiger (Sep 27, 2008)

I may write poems that I don't intend to gt published...but I would never even bother starting a novel if I didn't think I would try and have it published. However, that doesn't mean I wouldn't post it here.

I'll probably post my next 5 or 6 pages here soon enough.


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## Batman (Sep 27, 2008)

I might post part of the novella I wrote. . . . . . maybe. ?


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## Tyrael (Sep 27, 2008)

Yu-There's a fierce originality in there that I really like, but there is often a jumbling of tense and perspective coupled with a lack of commas. It gets a bit confusing when the fight ensues as well. I think you need to have a more clear direction with your style, as so far it is almost pure description with the odd bit of rambling. That said, it was very interesting and there is as much in your style that sits well with me as there is that doesn't.


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## Pan-on (Sep 27, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Does the fact that I find world building pointless make me a traitor as a fantasy fan? I mean, I can appreciate it in other works, but I don't set much stock by it.
> 
> I don't like sequels either.



My flatmate last year showed me an excellent article against worldbuilding, I didn't totally agree but it made a good point, I will ask him about it when i see him later today and try and post a link later.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 27, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Yu-There's a fierce originality in there that I really like, but there is often a jumbling of tense and perspective coupled with a lack of commas. It gets a bit confusing when the fight ensues as well. I think you need to have a more clear direction with your style, as so far it is almost pure description with the odd bit of rambling. That said, it was very interesting and there is as much in your style that sits well with me as there is that doesn't.



Jumbling of tense sticks sometimes because I have not actually read it.  The fight is supposed to be somewhat disorienting though I was thinking about fixing it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 27, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Jumbling of tense sticks sometimes because I have not actually read it.  The fight is supposed to be somewhat disorienting though I was thinking about fixing it.



I have no eye for deception in my writing, I have a hard time making something disorienting because I feel like it disorients me and makes it where I can't write it right...at the same time I once wanted to do a story with a first person narrator that lies to the reader a lot...even planning it proved to be a challenge because you have to make it where the reader will know whats going on otherwise it doesn't work.

It's a difficult writing task and after being so new to First Person I decided to save it for later.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 27, 2008)

I have one path in my story that uses first person perspective. I try to make it subtle like the narrator just chose not to tell you. I find it fun throwing readers around.

To address Tyrael's prior comment of description versus direction, it's the prologue. The prologue and the first few chapters are designed to set the stage. I want to bring my readers into the world before launching them out of a catapult.


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## Tyrael (Sep 27, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I have one path in my story that uses first person perspective. I try to make it subtle like the narrator just chose not to tell you. I find it fun throwing readers around.
> 
> To address Tyrael's prior comment of description versus direction, it's the prologue. The prologue and the first few chapters are designed to set the stage. I want to bring my readers into the world before launching them out of a catapult.



I didn't mean story-I meant that you might benefit from trying to sculpt your writing with a particular style in mind, as at the moment it is a little inconsistent and bare boned. I don't get much feel of character (not story characters) in the style. The plot itself seems to have a good sense of momentum though.

I've just confused this more haven't I?


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## Lord Yu (Sep 27, 2008)

I kinda understand what you mean. Things are gonna be flat as this is the prologue and I'm setting the stage. I know the tone kind of shifts in the prologue as I was trying to present a grand entrance and my mood changed. I think I hold it pretty consistent during the actual story except the Gohei chapters which are in first person.


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## Tyrael (Sep 27, 2008)

I'm just one man: should others tell you the same when you unveil your masterpiece to them then it might be worth really working on your style. That said, it may improve in the main body of your story as you say. Just remember that the prologue is what captures your reader, so has to present enough mystery or potential to persuade them to perpetuate their reading.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 27, 2008)

I have faced my biggest problem stared it in the face and got punched. I need cookbooks. Food is a challenge.

My diet consists of like 10 meals if that. fuuuck.


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## Tyrael (Sep 27, 2008)

Food surpasses all. It's a scientific fact that even sex can't beat an amazing meal. 'Twas a close run thing though.

Is all of the food you eat terribly unhealthy? I know when I move out I'm gonna be faced with 24/7 chipeys.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 27, 2008)

My meals are decently balanced but just lack variety thus my writing involving that area suffers.


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## Tyrael (Sep 27, 2008)

Why are you writing about food/eating?


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## Lord Yu (Sep 27, 2008)

I guess I could do the old artful dodge.


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## Tyrael (Sep 27, 2008)

By not letting your chars eat? How cruel.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 27, 2008)

By not mentioning what they ate. Sure it'll feel shallow when stacked with all of the other details I've put in. But that's what editing is for.


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## Tyrael (Sep 27, 2008)

I say you give them a boring and repetitive diet, just as a strange counter point to all the fantastical stuff flying about.


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## Serp (Sep 27, 2008)

Bread and water and the odd fish always works  And change that to Sweet bread and wine with the odd peacock for rich folk


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## Lord Yu (Sep 27, 2008)

If I weren't using a Japanese styled setting for some areas that might work.


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## Tyrael (Sep 27, 2008)

Have your characters survive only on alcohol. Just like real life.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 28, 2008)

I really haven't mentioned my own characters eating in a while. It's probably a good measure to show them doing every day thing like that.


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## Tyrael (Sep 28, 2008)

I doubt your reader will really care about stuff like that: it's one of the things I found kinda tedious about Hobb's books (fantastic books). Then again she does go into quite a lot of detail.


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## Serp (Sep 28, 2008)

Have your Characters survive on blood and flesh of the fallen, like 80% of my characters do


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## Lord Yu (Sep 28, 2008)

When I talk about the need for me to mention food is that some scenes I feel will inevitably involve food in some shape or form. Gives me more opportunities for symbolism and food connecting to emotion, memory etc.


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## Serp (Sep 28, 2008)

I see, one way would be to blag your way through it, and when the time comes make up any bullshit that can be seen as food, that fills the requirements. ^_^


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## Tyrael (Sep 28, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> When I talk about the need for me to mention food is that some scenes I feel will inevitably involve food in some shape or form. Gives me more opportunities for symbolism and food connecting to emotion, memory etc.



I like that line of thought-if it is used in this capacity then go for it, head first into research.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 28, 2008)

Serp said:


> Have your Characters survive on blood and flesh of the fallen, like 80% of my characters do



That majority of my characters are Human, the ones that aren't are either Vampire, Angel, Demon or some hybrid of one of the three. The Vampires do drink blood and I even showed one of them doing so. But the rest of the characters pretty much eat everyday stuff. And the Angel of Death has an affinity towards hamburgers


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## Serp (Sep 28, 2008)

Lol I was making a hyperbole as most of my characters are hunters and hunt, kill and eat the fallen prey .


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## Tyrael (Sep 28, 2008)

Serp said:


> I see, one way would be to blag your way through it, and when the time comes make up any bullshit that can be seen as food, that fills the requirements. ^_^



This is the way for me. As with all my story.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 28, 2008)

Some of my characters eat human flesh/raw flesh.


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## Tyrael (Sep 28, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Some of my characters eat human flesh/raw flesh.



I take these would be the horrendously villainous ones?

Oh and, I've just realised I have you added on msn. Damn, am I thick.


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## Lord Yu (Sep 28, 2008)

Well... No


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## Serp (Sep 28, 2008)

In my story my evil characters eat babies


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## Lord Yu (Sep 28, 2008)

A real villain makes the mother eat their baby.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 28, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Well... No



Good guys eating human flesh? I like it. The most famous literary cannibal is too often labeled a bad guy, despite the gray intrinsic in his character.

And your right about Code Geass=inferior Dune.



Serp said:


> In my story my evil characters eat babies



Haha-the Goodkind route eh? Just watch out, that could turn out horribly cliche and even hyperbolic. Unless your statement meant to imply this...


----------



## Serp (Sep 28, 2008)

No cliche here lol, or maybe there is. Just that this wolf I have attacked the village and ate the women and children while the men were fighting


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 28, 2008)

Wolf or werewolf?


----------



## Serp (Sep 28, 2008)

Werewolf  my werewolves are French so there is bound to be a crazy one.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 28, 2008)

I worked some getting Chapter Two of the story done, I think I did about 7,000 words in all yesterday and I started to have some people read over it. There was a glaring problem with the middle section of the piece so I ignored it at first, went on to write and finish chapter three. 

Today I decided to go back and fix it and after hours and hours or work I think I might have gotten somewhere with it, or at least made it to where I feel comfortable leaving it alone.

Then come to find out, I can't remember the last time I had food. After talking with Tyrael about it...I realized that I have a tendency to forget to eat when I am really in the zone when it comes to writing.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 28, 2008)

Serp said:


> Werewolf  my werewolves are French so there is bound to be a crazy one.



I have to say, that sounds pretty OTT. Still, that doesn't mean it can't be done well.

Edit-Have you combined the two parts CTK?


----------



## Serp (Sep 28, 2008)

Well not really OTT, when the werewolf in question was an insane mass murder before being turned.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 28, 2008)

Serp said:


> Well not really OTT, when the werewolf in question was an insane mass murder before being turned.



It depends on how you contextualise it: literally eating children is pretty OTT, as are werewolves I guess. It's all in the presentation.


----------



## Serp (Sep 28, 2008)

That is true,  he also ate women.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 28, 2008)

I once had a garden of dismembered children parts but that was a fucked up dream sequence.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 28, 2008)

Serp said:


> That is true,  he also ate women.



If he's not fussy about age, I'm sure gender never even occurs in it.

Scarily enough Another Brick in the Wall part 2 just came on.



Lord Yu said:


> I once had a garden of dismembered children parts but that was a fucked up dream sequence.



That's pure and simple mindfuckery. If is like trying to accuse Donnie Darko of being OTT: where do you start?


----------



## Serp (Sep 28, 2008)

True his orders were to kill the women and children, he was like  hey a buffet of people surely weaker than me 

And I have a dream, mindfuck, LSD scene. Some fucked up trees mind fuck the main guys and the whole ground is wet with blood, trees made of arms and claws as well as a zombie/bloodied/demonesque version of them self was trying to dismember them 
But that was all in their head...  Kinda.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 28, 2008)

So not a tree literally fucking somebody like in Night of the Living/Evil (can't remember the name) Dead?


----------



## Serp (Sep 28, 2008)

Oh no, just vines from the tree grabbed them and forcefully entered through their ears


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 28, 2008)

Good, it was an awful movie. Probably a classic.

I don't have any real mindfuckery in my current project, although the main char's baby son might die-too straight laced to be mind fuck.

And I love this album.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 28, 2008)

I only listen to The Wall during sleep deprivation.  The movie with the raping tree is Evil Dead and don't say bad things about it around Gooba.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 28, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I only listen to The Wall during sleep deprivation.  The movie with the raping tree is Evil Dead and don't say bad things about it around Gooba.



You find it boring or soothing?

I'll keep that in mind should I ever encounter Gooba on the site.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 28, 2008)

I find it best listened to in a distorted state of mind.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 28, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I have to say, that sounds pretty OTT. Still, that doesn't mean it can't be done well.
> 
> Edit-Have you combined the two parts CTK?



Yeah I combined them of sorts, basically went back and inserted new pieces of dialogue and a longer introduction into _the first story_ you read. I kept those parts in separate colors so that I could easily identify them and what not.


----------



## Batman (Sep 28, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> So not a tree literally fucking somebody like in Night of the Living/Evil (can't remember the name) Dead?







			
				Serp said:
			
		

> Oh no, just vines from the tree grabbed them and forcefully entered through their ears






Why do I feel like I've missed something terribly important.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 28, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I find it best listened to in a distorted state of mind.



This is true. That said, I find that the music distorts your mind for you.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah I combined them of sorts, basically went back and inserted new pieces of dialogue and a longer introduction into _the first story_ you read. I kept those parts in separate colors so that I could easily identify them and what not.



The first one was far too stripped down if I remember correctly.



Batman said:


> Why do I feel like I've missed something terribly important.



*Makes bad double entendre about "wood".*


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 28, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> The first one was far too stripped down if I remember correctly.



Wait, I had it wrong, I went back and added bits of description here and there. I plan on doing more, its just that I wanted it to be a certain way before I move on to chapter four.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 29, 2008)

Fuck, I had this cool way of introducing the concept of the Elementals into my story with the introduction of one of the characters but since I had to scrap that part I end up introducing them in such a boring way. Must do it over. Must delay.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 29, 2008)

This new project is moving at a snail's pace. I have only managed half a page so far today.


----------



## Serp (Sep 29, 2008)

Add a mindfuck scene, they can randomly interject somewhere, be pages long, make no real sense and their job will be done.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 29, 2008)

Mindfucks lose their power if used too often. inserting them left, right and centre will just set readers rolling their eyes.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 29, 2008)

Not if you make the entire story one subtle giant mindfuck.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 29, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Not if you make the entire story one subtle giant mindfuck.



Secret Window?


----------



## Serp (Sep 29, 2008)

^Evangelion


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 29, 2008)

Serp said:


> ^Evangelion



Haha, nothing subtle about that dude.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 29, 2008)

Evangelion was only a mindfuck at the end.


----------



## Batman (Sep 29, 2008)

Two episodes of WTF. . .  

I swear they just didn't know what to do so they had their kids throw some shit together while they sat around counting their money.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 29, 2008)

Apparently they didn't have enough money to animate it properly, hence the mindfuckery.


----------



## Garfield (Sep 29, 2008)

Is it bad when a novel contains too much scientific indulgence?


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 29, 2008)

I can understand how it happened with Hideki Anno getting depressed. I've thrown together some weird shit when I was depressed a few times. The question is why did they let him do it?


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 29, 2008)

CX said:


> Is it bad when a novel contains too much scientific indulgence?



Depends how relevant it is and whether or not it breaks the flow and momentum of the plot.



Lord Yu said:


> I can understand how it happened with Hideki Anno getting depressed. I've thrown together some weird shit when I was depressed a few times. The question is why did they let him do it?



The animation budget running out I heard.


----------



## Batman (Sep 29, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I can understand how it happened with Hideki Anno getting depressed. I've thrown together some weird shit when I was depressed a few times. The question is why did they let him do it?



lol my thoughts exactly. I didn't watch all of that shit. 



			
				CX said:
			
		

> Is it bad when a novel contains too much scientific indulgence?


not if its well written. But that's my answer to everything --> As long as its interesting.



			
				Ty said:
			
		

> The animation budget running out I heard.



I heard that their story budget ran out and they didn't know what to do with all of the symbolism they crammed into it. 

Though your answer is seems more plausible.


----------



## Garfield (Sep 29, 2008)

Hmm...

My novel's a spy one.

Thanks


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 29, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> The animation budget running out I heard.



Still doesn't explain why it went mindfuck again for End of Evangelion.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 29, 2008)

If it's a thriller you might wanna try and stream your style so it's at a minimum-Harris for example. Indulgence in the context of a book that is aimed to be fast paced and gripping is something I would counsel to avoic. Unless it's not actually a thriller, but a thoughtful look into the life of a spy/what that implies, etc.

End of Evangelion, I thought, was bloody amazing. The dark psychological stuff was always kinda there, but it really took the series to a different level.


----------



## Garfield (Sep 29, 2008)

I'd say it is not at all a thriller. Like at the opposite end of the spectrum from James Bond in fact.
More along the lines of John le Carre but more technologically intensive...


----------



## Batman (Sep 29, 2008)

CX said:


> Hmm...
> 
> My novel's a spy one.
> 
> Thanks



Hey. They science stuff works well for Michael Crichton. I know I wouldn't mind a few intricacies of the latest tech.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 29, 2008)

CX said:


> I'd say it is not at all a thriller. Like at the opposite end of the spectrum from James Bond in fact.
> More along the lines of John le Carre but more technologically intensive...



Not read any of le Carre's stuff, but if it's not a traditional thriller then don't worry about it. Bats said it best, when he said that anything well written can work.


----------



## Garfield (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks guys :>

Can you believe I've never read a single Michael Chricton O_O

*checks library database*


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 29, 2008)

CX said:


> Thanks guys :>
> 
> Can you believe I've never read a single Michael Chricton O_O
> 
> *checks library database*



Ditto'd, any good?


----------



## Garfield (Sep 29, 2008)

Oh, ok never mind, I've read "A State of Fear"

And depends...Do you likeRobert Ludlum mixed with a little bit of Stephen Frey?


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm really not well read outside the fantasy genre. Ludlum wrote the Bourne books didn't he?


----------



## Garfield (Sep 29, 2008)

Yep, he did that. Not the highlight of his work if I may say so myself.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 29, 2008)

All I've really read in the genre have been James Bond, as well as Thomas Harris and Eric Lustbader-what else would be worth a look?


----------



## Garfield (Sep 29, 2008)

I've read only like 10 authors but I'd highly recommend:

Tom Clancy
Robert Littell (Company was fucking great)
John le Carre 
David Morrell
Ken Follett

The whole works of LeCarre and Littell are amazing.
Oh and as for Ludlum, Tristan Betrayal is worth checking out IMO

I'd give a couple more names but I've not been able to find them online so can't assure you could find their work. Most prominent of them being Duncan Falconar. Irish guy, was in the MI4 or something and wrote a couple nice novels based on his experience


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 29, 2008)

CX said:


> I've read only like 10 authors but I'd highly recommend:
> 
> Tom Clancy
> Robert Littell (Company was fucking great)
> ...



Cheers man, I'll take a note. Got one hell of a to read list going on here.


----------



## Garfield (Sep 29, 2008)

Do tell me about it


----------



## sel (Sep 29, 2008)

Tell me more about le Carre please? I've heard a fair bit of acclaim about him


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 29, 2008)

CX said:


> Do tell me about it



Let's just say, it is longer than that list I posted in your new thread


----------



## Garfield (Sep 29, 2008)

sel said:


> Tell me more about le Carre please? I've heard a fair bit of acclaim about him



Very prolific Spy fiction writer. His wikipedia page pretty much explains everything  I find his work to be really well set. He knows what limitations of said characters in real worlds are. The work is really serious and intelligent yet avoids being even slightly pretentious. Most of it is based on the cold war and as it's intention, it is not really very fast paced as such but gives you a lot to think about if you are interested in that genre. He's might not be a master of the hook but he is really good at deception. Think Arthur Conan Doyle, but dealing with more psychological aspects and in a really sombre fashion. 

His magnum Opus according to me would be...ok well his magnum opus are: 
Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy
The Spy who came in from the cold
The tailor of Panama (Pierce Brosnan movie even)
and my favorite: A Small town in Germany



Tyrael said:


> Let's just say, it is longer than that list I posted in your new thread



When you would have more time to tell then?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 29, 2008)

This place has been really busy lately...well I just came in to say I am on a roll...actually did 2,000 more words last night.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 29, 2008)

We are super productive.


----------



## Batman (Sep 29, 2008)

I didn't do shit today.


couldn't concentrate.





still can't


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 29, 2008)

Can't...stop...staring...at...Louisu

OH GOD! LOUIS IS HOT!

I've been throwing around ideas typing things. Mainly I've been trying to save one of my most interesting characters from remaining idle.


----------



## Batman (Sep 30, 2008)

never used this gay gif before

Whenever I want to do something like that, I get em talking. I used to under use dialog, but now they won't shut the hell up. And then they just start doing stuff that serves their own selfish purpose.

Then I end up wanting to kill them off.

My characters don't even listen to me.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 30, 2008)

That gif amuses me, but only because I know the guy it belongs to and all the injokes behind it


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 30, 2008)

I'm talking imprisoned by the plot. I don't want her to turn into a damsel in distress...or do I?  I could do some interesting things with this. I'd really be stressing my abilities as a writer here.


----------



## Batman (Sep 30, 2008)

> That gif amuses me, but only because I know the guy it belongs to and all the injokes behind it


I'm so out of the loop. Makes me feel disconnected.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 30, 2008)

I know the guy the gif belongs too but not the in jokes. I should really talk to my e-son more.


----------



## Garfield (Sep 30, 2008)

How the heck do you find so many beautiful anime girls Batman


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 30, 2008)

The real question is: How does he find so many beautiful _clothed_ anime girls


----------



## Batman (Sep 30, 2008)

CX said:


> How the heck do you find so many beautiful anime girls Batman



Ignore real girls for a few months and you'll probably find a plenty too. 




-________________________________________________________________-

Yu, you should give her some kind of terrible choice then laugh while she has to choose. Or could give her some kind of wonderful choice, but then kill her.

Or give her jive talkin side kick with a Scandinavian accent.




Taurus Versant said:


> The real question is: How does he find so many beautiful _clothed_ anime girls



Lol you're not lying. There are quite a few times where I had to not make a sig at the last minute because I realized I could see a nipple or a vagina.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 30, 2008)

In this situation that approach doesn't work. Besides it's too early in the game for her to die and she's way too important. Killing her off now is equivalent to ripping the bottom out of a bag full of groceries.


----------



## Garfield (Sep 30, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> The real question is: How does he find so many beautiful _clothed_ anime girls


I am alone in my fetish of properly (neither scantily nor over-covered) clothed women appealing more to my sexual tendencies than naked women 



Batman said:


> Ignore real girls for a few months and you'll probably find a plenty too.



Can't fuck anime girls though


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 30, 2008)

What's beneath the bag that everything will fall out onto?


----------



## Batman (Sep 30, 2008)

CX said:


> I am alone in my fetish of properly (neither scantily nor over-covered) clothed women appealing more to my sexual tendencies than naked women


 I like both.





> Can't fuck anime girls though



Yeah I'll have to go back soon. But girls always gotta bother me when I'm trying to work.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 30, 2008)

I didn't do this today, well I did some of it very early this morning. I am trying to be super productive though. I have a lot of ideas to get down while they are fresh.


----------



## Garfield (Sep 30, 2008)

Batman said:


> I like both.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, aren't we popular


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 30, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> What's beneath the bag that everything will fall out onto?



Oblivion







.


----------



## Batman (Sep 30, 2008)

CX said:


> Well, aren't we popular



Meh, I get by. I blame it on the fact that I think they can smell the future money. Here's how a typical conversation goes with a girl I just met.


Me: Nice to meet.

Her: So what do you do?

Me: Aside from my job, I'm working on becoming an author.

Her: What do you write?

Me: I'm working on a young adult series. The first book is nearing completion.

Her: Young adult books?  Like for kids?

Me: Yeah, like 12-17 year olds.

Her: Ooooh. There's a lot of money in that. ?

Me:


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 30, 2008)

I never meet girls. I'm a super recluse only surfacing for school and occasional trots to the bookstore.


----------



## Batman (Sep 30, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I never meet girls. I'm a super recluse only surfacing for school and occasional trots to the bookstore.



That's what I'm doing right now. That plus exercise. The peace of mind has been outstanding.


but now I suppose I'm restless. probably why I can't concentrate today.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 30, 2008)

I'm stuck like this against my will.

Oh and requesting full version of that sig.


----------



## Batman (Sep 30, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm stuck like this against my will.
> 
> Oh and requesting full version of that sig.



The regular pics not that much bigger than the one in my sig.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 30, 2008)

<3 Louis

I just had a great idea to tie all my story paths together. It also solves my issue of what to do with other unused locations.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 30, 2008)

You make up the locations beforehand?


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 30, 2008)

Most of the time I do.


----------



## Garfield (Sep 30, 2008)

Batman said:


> Meh, I get by. I blame it on the fact that I think they can smell the future money. Here's how a typical conversation goes with a girl I just met.
> 
> 
> Me: Nice to meet.
> ...




Rich, popular, writer,....



You're hyper lucky mate


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 30, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Most of the time I do.



My locations are all real or based on real places...so the ones I do make up tend to be few and far between.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 30, 2008)

Approximately none of my locations other than passing references to London.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 30, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Approximately none of my locations other than passing references to London.



My biggest problem with locations is that later on my characters have to do a bit of jet setting...I'm going to have locations in central Russia, the Middle East, Western Europe and one or two in Northern Africa. 

I've never been off this continent.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 30, 2008)

Thus the magic of literary liberties. I forgot to mention I also refer to Spain in passing. Other than that my world is entirely my own.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 30, 2008)

Well I will just sit and study places, look at pictures and talk to people from there online or people that have been there. That way I can get what I need to know about them and get what I need to know to write about them.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 30, 2008)

I usually bend context around the story, it's generally not really a seperate entity, such as in Tolkein or Jordan or (at the other end of the scale) Huxley.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 30, 2008)

I've always just ended up describing 'generic suits the needs landscape numbers 1 through 10' over and over  I'm not too good with environments.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 30, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> I've always just ended up describing 'generic suits the needs landscape numbers 1 through 10' over and over  I'm not too good with environments.



It can be good fun to play with environments when stretching the descriptive muscle. That said, I might have to edit some of my sections down due to this.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 30, 2008)

Well, I can always see it perfectly inside my head. It just doesn't always translate to the page as well as I'd like.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 30, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Well, I can always see it perfectly inside my head. It just doesn't always translate to the page as well as I'd like.



I'm kinda the opposite-I can't see it until it is described. It's as if it is being built by the words, carved by the phrases, since that's all your reader will see anyway.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 30, 2008)

I can see an entire story in my head, in all the glory I want other people to recognise. But it loses some of the feeling to it as it leaves my mind and takes shape on paper.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 30, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> I can see an entire story in my head, in all the glory I want other people to recognise. But it loses some of the feeling to it as it leaves my mind and takes shape on paper.



I have the skeleton of the story in my mind when I start but normally it mutates and grows wings during the process and ends up different. I wouldn't say I know my story until it is done and even then...

Apparently I'm a very free flowing, spontaneous sort. Either that or I have a poor understanding of my writing process.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 30, 2008)

I have the start and end, and lots of shapes in between. Admittedly, they might change midway, but I'll always be going towards the forecasted finale.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 30, 2008)

You currently working on another novel Taurs?


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 30, 2008)

Just bumming around with my fanfic. As soon as my final exams are over, I'll finish it, and get on to the story I began mentally preparing a few months back. I get good vibes from it, so I know it's gonna be better than my current works.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 30, 2008)

The one about the sword?


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 30, 2008)

Yeah, that's the one. It's a solid plot.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 30, 2008)

I'm currently using the almost 0 planning King method. Letting the story grow itself. It's working well, but my productivity is awful-probably due to NF.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 30, 2008)

Yeah, NF has led to some serious procrastination on my part. :sweat


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 30, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Yeah, NF has led to some serious procrastination on my part. :sweat



Funnily, I'm procrastinating right now. Heh.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 30, 2008)

You ain't the only one.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 30, 2008)

I've began using words like got and thing in my writing. Is this lazy of me?


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 30, 2008)

Context?


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 30, 2008)

I tend to only use "got" and "thing" in dialogue and first person narrative and maybe colloquial third person narrative.


----------



## Tyrael (Sep 30, 2008)

Just as a part of my style. I've began to just write a word if I want to write a word. Simple as that.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Sep 30, 2008)

That's how I've always written in the past.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 1, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> Well, I can always see it perfectly inside my head. It just doesn't always translate to the page as well as I'd like.



Sometimes the editing process can help us to flesh this out or actually shrink things down to where they need to be. When I can't think of what to do I sometimes just write a description and sometimes I just throw words into brackets right there that describe the room but have no place in the sentences. 

Then when I edit I can tell what I was thinking and I might even have an idea to work it in.


----------



## neko-sennin (Oct 1, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> My thoughts exactly-the world is a part of the story and only develops with the writing. There is world building, but it is inexorably meshed in with the character development and use of themes and so on.





Lord Yu said:


> I am first and foremost a character person. I want people to be alive in a living world. I want the reader to breath the world with the characters so they can better identify with them.



That's the funny part. What I've come to notice increasingly over the years is that you can have a heavily developed world, but if the characters are 2-D, it won't matter. On the flip side, you can have a very vague world whose shape and dynamics are often a function of the story, but as long as the characters are sufficiently engaging, people are more accommodating of inconsistencies in setting. The real secret, I've found, to having a well fleshed-out world, is having even minor characters build into a foundation of interaction, and the dynamics of the world fall into place as a function of that.



Taurus Versant said:


> Do any of you guys actually post your stuff here? For critiques in its own thread? Like a story you just wrote for the sake of writing, not for publication?



I would like to publish Tradewinds someday, but for now I'm looking to both have an audience after all these years, and try to find out if there's actually enough interest in my series among actual readers before ever approaching a publisher.



Tyrael said:


> I doubt your reader will really care about stuff like that: it's one of the things I found kinda tedious about Hobb's books (fantastic books). Then again she does go into quite a lot of detail.



Yeah, I usually dismiss things like meals in passing unless an important event or conversation actually _happens_ during it. Otherwise, it's just "They ate a quick lunch, then resumed their exploration." for example.



Lord Yu said:


> Fuck, I had this cool way of introducing the concept of the Elementals into my story with the introduction of one of the characters but since I had to scrap that part I end up introducing them in such a boring way. Must do it over. Must delay.



If I were you, I'd try to figure out a way to work those cool intros back into the current framework, if possible.



Batman said:


> Meh, I get by. I blame it on the fact that I think they can smell the future money. Here's how a typical conversation goes with a girl I just met.
> 
> 
> Me: Nice to meet.
> ...



That's why I don't discuss my work with much of anyone outside the Craft.



Lord Yu said:


> I just had a great idea to tie all my story paths together. It also solves my issue of what to do with other unused locations.



Isn't it great when that happens?



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You make up the locations beforehand?



I don't know about Yu, but in my case, settings tend to come part and parcel with the story ideas themselves.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> My biggest problem with locations is that later on my characters have to do a bit of jet setting...I'm going to have locations in central Russia, the Middle East, Western Europe and one or two in Northern Africa.
> 
> I've never been off this continent.



Neither have I. Or most of us, for that matter, left our respective continents. In my case, I used to watch a lot of "travel" shows, I always loved National Geographic (both the magazine, and their programs), and other sources of images, maps, and other resources on exotic settings. I spent my entire childhood wanting to see those places for myself, and someday I'd still like to.



Taurus Versant said:


> Well, I can always see it perfectly inside my head. It just doesn't always translate to the page as well as I'd like.



lol, that's a challenge we all face in one form or another.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Sometimes the editing process can help us to flesh this out or actually shrink things down to where they need to be. When I can't think of what to do I sometimes just write a description and sometimes I just throw words into brackets right there that describe the room but have no place in the sentences.



I also make a lot of use of brackets in my rough drafts, though more for editing purposes, but occasionally if I can't figure out where something fits. One of my goals in the word-processed draft is to fit everything that fits, and strip away all of the visible framework by the time I have a working draft.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 1, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> That's the funny part. What I've come to notice increasingly over the years is that you can have a heavily developed world, but if the characters are 2-D, it won't matter. On the flip side, you can have a very vague world whose shape and dynamics are often a function of the story, but as long as the characters are sufficiently engaging, people are more accommodating of inconsistencies in setting. The real secret, I've found, to having a well fleshed-out world, is having even minor characters build into a foundation of interaction, and the dynamics of the world fall into place as a function of that.



I've learned this can be the case from Malazan. But characterization is my strongest point.


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## Tyrael (Oct 1, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> That's the funny part. What I've come to notice increasingly over the years is that you can have a heavily developed world, but if the characters are 2-D, it won't matter. On the flip side, you can have a very vague world whose shape and dynamics are often a function of the story, but as long as the characters are sufficiently engaging, people are more accommodating of inconsistencies in setting. The real secret, I've found, to having a well fleshed-out world, is having even minor characters build into a foundation of interaction, and the dynamics of the world fall into place as a function of that.



Yeah-I'm all for world building, it can contribute to a story, but only once I've got the characters and plot out of the way first.

Also I should give the Tradewinds part 2 a look, as I said I would give you some feedback on it.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 1, 2008)

The whole world building came out of the fact that I was making a vidya gaem before I was writing a novel. I've worked on my characters and plot more than my world.


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## Tyrael (Oct 1, 2008)

Thing is, I probably wouldn't round to getting round to do any until the novel is finished, which makes any such work redundant.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 1, 2008)

And also "Oh Hey this looks like it could be fun." 
I've made alot of world building decisions spur of the moment.


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## Tyrael (Oct 1, 2008)

Most of my pivotal plot points were made on the spur of the moment. It's just how creativity works.


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## Farih (Oct 1, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Most of my pivotal plot points were made on the spur of the moment. It's just how creativity works.



I've completely reworked some of my plots while sitting in my chem lecture and thinking of something completely random.

Oh, and hi, I'm farihstar.  I want to be a dermatologist, but if I wasn't into science then I'd definitely want to be an author.  I wrote 170 pages of a book so far, but I'm constantly editing it and changing plot points.  My favorite genre to write is supernatural.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 2, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Yeah, I usually dismiss things like meals in passing unless an important event or conversation actually _happens_ during it. Otherwise, it's just "They ate a quick lunch, then resumed their exploration." for example.



Oh of course. But more often than not I know I need a discussion to take place. I just don't have where it needs to be done planned out. Sometimes it could be in the car, other times it could be in the bed room, on the couch, at a meal or something of the sort. 

I remember on my last write through I had an important discussion take place in the shower, or with one character in the shower and the other  coming in through the door and sitting on the closed toilet and just talking to them. I remember really liking it when I read over it. It seemed realistic. 

And my most beloved discussion, the one part of the story that will remain almost unchanged in execution at least in this rewrite was one that took place between two characters at a Starbucks on a cold day.  
 


neko-sennin said:


> That's why I don't discuss my work with much of anyone outside the Craft.



Well its hard to assume how someone will react. But its funny, I met this girl online on another site and she told me she loved to read and edit, which I felt was odd. She said she spent a lot of time on fiction press and fan fiction.net. Well I showed her my stuff and she seems to be good at finding technical errors, but she really can't seem to follow the plot, which is odd because out of the dozens that have read it, she's the only one. 



neko-sennin said:


> Neither have I. Or most of us, for that matter, left our respective continents. In my case, I used to watch a lot of "travel" shows, I always loved National Geographic (both the magazine, and their programs), and other sources of images, maps, and other resources on exotic settings. I spent my entire childhood wanting to see those places for myself, and someday I'd still like to.



I usually just go on wikipedia or ask someone that's been there, at the same time I don't think I know anyone in Russia or Africa, both places that  will have characters going to in the near future of the series. So I don't know if I will have to depend on reading about them solely to tell me what its like. 



neko-sennin said:


> I also make a lot of use of brackets in my rough drafts, though more for editing purposes, but occasionally if I can't figure out where something fits. One of my goals in the word-processed draft is to fit everything that fits, and strip away all of the visible framework by the time I have a working draft.



Oh mine too, if I send it to anyone to read, the brackets are gone completely. But one of the things I tell some people is that if they want they can edit and send it back to me or suggest things to me. Like I have someone I use to help me better understand a certain culture, she often writes things to make sure I know them for later and all.



Tyrael said:


> Yeah-I'm all for world building, it can contribute to a story, but only once I've got the characters and plot out of the way first.



Its funny, I have to do a little of this later, when it comes to describing Heaven and Hell, but a lot of their characterization gets placed here and there in earlier stories when other characters mention things from them. 



farihstar said:


> I've completely reworked some of my plots while sitting in my chem lecture and thinking of something completely random.
> 
> Oh, and hi, I'm farihstar.  I want to be a dermatologist, but if I wasn't into science then I'd definitely want to be an author.  I wrote 170 pages of a book so far, but I'm constantly editing it and changing plot points.  My favorite genre to write is supernatural.



Well hello there, right now I am going over this rewrite while trying to rework a lot of my plot points too. I am realizing more and more that the scope of my story was too large and that I totally didn't need some stories in the series...the important elements of them could have gone in the stories before or after...


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## Lord Yu (Oct 3, 2008)

I think I have completely lost pace with the Michelle and Eridaltia paths.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 4, 2008)

Well I got some much needed rest for most of the day, got to go out and do some stuff, interact with people...fun!


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## Lord Yu (Oct 4, 2008)

I can't control pace for shit anymore with the Eridaltia path I just have lack of direction with the Michelle path.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 4, 2008)

Oh other good news, I just found four beta readers...I am trying to get a team of them together to go through and work on different aspects of my story. I am going to see how this works out though.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 4, 2008)

I don't even know what a beta reader is.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 4, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I don't even know what a beta reader is.



Someone who reads your story looking for mistakes in grammar, consistency, and just tries to make sure the characters and plot make sense. And that the story progresses well.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 4, 2008)

That sounds like it goes against my religion.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 4, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> That sounds like it goes against my religion.



We do the same thing here when we post the stories and people read over it and comment.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 4, 2008)

Fuck it. I'm throwing suspense to the wind for now for the sake of progress. Suspense can wait for editing.


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## Batman (Oct 4, 2008)

Got my editing hat on again.


The hours crawl by.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 4, 2008)

I almost threw suspense to the wind. But then I remembered I had something awesome to recycle in the discard archive.


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## Tyrael (Oct 4, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I almost threw suspense to the wind. But then I remembered I had something awesome to recycle in the discard archive.



So you've decided to eliminate suspense?


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## Lord Yu (Oct 4, 2008)

No, just recycle a concept from my discarded work. 

On another note. I've decided to do some short stories set in the same world as my novel.


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## Tyrael (Oct 4, 2008)

It's good fun, and with the chance of being useful. I generally find my output on my main stories is so low I tend to have to stay focused on the main.

The current project I am doing doesn't have much of a chance for that, as it's got a fairly small cast. Well, a large-ish cast tbh, but most of the chars. die so quickly it's not worth counting them.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 5, 2008)

So I kickstarted one staller. Now to fix the other.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 5, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> It's good fun, and with the chance of being useful. I generally find my output on my main stories is so low I tend to have to stay focused on the main.
> 
> The current project I am doing doesn't have much of a chance for that, as it's got a fairly small cast. Well, a large-ish cast tbh, but most of the chars. die so quickly it's not worth counting them.



Didn't see this before. As you know I have combined a lot of my characters to cut down on confusion and the like. One of the things I am still going to do is have the expanded universe stories where i show different characters and the like when I have time. 

I still plan to do the shorts too when I have time. I might even start on some soon just to spur my main story along. It worked before.


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## mystictrunks (Oct 5, 2008)

For the most part all I've been writing this year are scripts and outlines for comic books.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 5, 2008)

I love finding a word so obscure that the computer doesn't know it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 5, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I love finding a word so obscure that the computer doesn't know it.



This is why I took my mom's medical dictionaries from her copy of word before..and some science ones offline...


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## Lord Yu (Oct 5, 2008)

I should get a medical dictionary.


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## neko-sennin (Oct 6, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> No, just recycle a concept from my discarded work.



Ah, sometimes an idea that just didn't go anywhere the first time gets a second chance. Sometimes, it can be rather surprising to see just where and when it actually fits. The Book of Hondo, for instance, contains a lot of wacky and whimsical ideas that just didn't work in the Tradewinds milieu.



Lord Yu said:


> On another note. I've decided to do some short stories set in the same world as my novel.



Cool. That's always fun. Although I've only got one complete short that directly relates to the Tradewinds storyline.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 6, 2008)

With me it's mostly, I discard a great big chunk ditch the crap and salvage the good.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 6, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Cool. That's always fun. Although I've only got one complete short that directly relates to the Tradewinds storyline.



To date I think I have about fifteen shorts that take place in the world of my stories.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 7, 2008)

I only have the makings of one so far. It takes place eleven years before the main story and I don't think it will tie into the main story.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 7, 2008)

Some of mine tie in, others are just separate looks at different characters outside of the elements of the stories. Some of them feature characters that are never in the story. Most of them focus on the Angel of the Death, Angel of Nature or one of the vampire characters at different points in time.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 7, 2008)

Mine tells a deeply emotional tale of a man's quest to cure the crippling disease of boredom in a small town.


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## Tyrael (Oct 7, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Mine tells a deeply emotional tale of a man's quest to cure the crippling disease of boredom in a small town.



Random killing spree?


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## Taurus Versant (Oct 7, 2008)

That'll do it.


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## Tyrael (Oct 7, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> That'll do it.



"I'm bored, where did I leave my axe? Ah here, it is...YAAAAAAAAAAAARGH."


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## Lord Yu (Oct 7, 2008)

Thanks to the help of a friend I do believe I've solved my stalled story path. I may also get a map artist.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 7, 2008)

This is my world map


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## Lord Yu (Oct 7, 2008)

Lazy Bastard.


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## Serp (Oct 7, 2008)

Lol world maps, in one of my stories. The immortal protectors of the world, shifted continents and changes the the whole face of the world.

And then in another one, an alternate history happens and changes the countries and how the world is governed fundmentally changing the world, by only keeping it physical form the same


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 7, 2008)

I still have to make a map for Hell and Heaven though...or at least I need one to use.


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## Serp (Oct 7, 2008)

True, I need to map out Eden (The cradle of life and now the demon universe).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 7, 2008)

My Garden of Eden is located somewhere in the middle of East...sort of in the Iraq area.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 7, 2008)

In other words where it's supposedly located according to biblical description.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 7, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> In other words where it's supposedly located according to biblical description.



Yep, that's pretty much how I roll. It's only talked about like one time though. I also need to pick a place for where Satan fell to Earth...not sure where I will do that one.


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## neko-sennin (Oct 8, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I still have to make a map for Hell and Heaven though...or at least I need one to use.



Perhaps you could go with a "shifting" geography, and only a loose relationship of places on those planes of existence. Sort of like most dream planes, only less random.

Or perhaps you could create layered maps analogous to Dante. 



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I also need to pick a place for where Satan fell to Earth...not sure where I will do that one.



You could play this up a lot for symbolism, depending on where you place it. It could be a "cursed" or shunned place, or a wasteland. You could also pick something creepy; though not biblical, you could have some fun with the radioactive corpses of Mohenjo-daro, especially connections to an ancient battle written of in the Bhagavad Gita, perhaps even related to the Old Ones.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 8, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Perhaps you could go with a "shifting" geography, and only a loose relationship of places on those planes of existence. Sort of like most dream planes, only less random.
> 
> Or perhaps you could create layered maps analogous to Dante.
> 
> ...



I think I will do something like the map is reversed or the oceans are land in Hell and the rest is magma or something of that type...

I think I will say Satan fell in Georgia.


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## Serp (Oct 8, 2008)

Although I know that the garden of eden is in the middle east, In my world the first tunnel between worlds is there a spiritual Liminal you could say. 

Suggesting that although the earth and the demonverse are different, both share a common place named Eden (kinda of a capital of the demon universe). And Eden in the demon world is where the first demons passed through and Eden in the human world is where they first emerged.

 let me know if I am making any sense.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 8, 2008)

Serp said:


> Although I know that the garden of eden is in the middle east, In my world the first tunnel between worlds is there a spiritual Liminal you could say.
> 
> Suggesting that although the earth and the demonverse are different, both share a common place named Eden (kinda of a capital of the demon universe). And Eden in the demon world is where the first demons passed through and Eden in the human world is where they first emerged.
> 
> let me know if I am making any sense.



I had some names written down for Demon cities and the like, I forgot what they were though or where I put them. I think I am going to cut back on the number of Vampires so that there are far less than they used to be. 

As I was telling Tyrael, I have werewolves too, or they are mentioned rather. But at the same time they were wolves are very very rare and are almost completely out of control. I doubt I will ever actually have one in a main story. 

My demon world is actually pretty easily accessed for the right people, the witches and the like. I am not sure about the gateway to Hell, I used to have one in the story. But I might not include that in this draft. 

My version of the Devil is also fun to write, he's lustful, greedy and yet you can trust him never to try and harm himself just to get to you. He's actually kind of a good guy this time.


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## Serp (Oct 8, 2008)

Well as I have many active stories happening in the same world, the main ones being the Demon story and the Werewolf story.

In the werewolf one (which I am currently not explaining), it shows back in the past that there were many werewolves but due to unforeseen circumstances the werewolf lead is now in the present and can see that the werewolves are rare almost to extinction. 

My version of the devil is not the devil 

I have Lilith as the big bad, and 7 demon lords as the masters of the realms. Although all the demon lords never appear in a story together. Lilith serves as the one true immortal character (as she was banished before the creator took away Adam and Eves), she is nigh omnipotent but dumb as shit .

I deviated from the source material alot, but put my own spin on things and I like it. The way it all started was, that God created Adam and Lilith (Human and Demon), Lilith became pregnant with Adams child and then got banished. Lilith gave birth to  Lilim(Adams child), not a half demon, but rather a demon and a human at the same time. After Lilith got banished she entered the demon realm, where she breed with the aspects of the environment and gave birth to the 7 great demon lords (being the strongest as the rest born were Asexually conceived ). These 8 demons were Liliths only live born children, since after that becoming one with the realm she fed her lifeforce into the lands and you could say that demons started to grow on trees. .  

But in that world although the first actual portal naturally occurred in the middle east, portals can now be opened via the right means. The demon realm is a mindfuck in itself, it remains the physical representation of Liliths inner world and thus is limitless in space. 

Once again I hope I made any sense


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 8, 2008)

I guess that's where we differed, I worked mostly with in the source material except for a few of the times really. 

The problem right now is that I am not liking how chapter seven starts and I am seeing that this whole scene might need to come out, or the start of it anyway. I have this:
 


> The days shortened and the night crept in bringing with it the falling temperatures and rich pine smelling wind that accompanied a dry Nor?easter. On nights like these all of the houses in the suburbs stood with windows opened as the cool air rustled through the pines and filled the houses with the rich aroma.
> 
> The quiet night had settled in over the streets as each family had left its dishes in the sink and gone off to their own devices. In the hours just before bed people had to finish up what dinner had interrupted. It was a routine, something that just seemed to fall into place. For the Cribbs it was no different really, despite the fact that they could hardly be classified as normal.



Even by the second paragraph it feels like there is something wrong.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 9, 2008)

I've broken the second chapter barriers again. Let's see if I can make it to thirds without wankery.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 9, 2008)

I scrapped basically all of chapter seven except for one paragraph and rewrote some of it last night. I got about two thousand words before I stopped, but it turned out much better.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 10, 2008)

So I added airships and sky pirates.


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## Taurus Versant (Oct 10, 2008)

I've been entertaining a story about air ships and sky pirates for ages.

Have yet to put even a feasible plot together. One day maybe.


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## neko-sennin (Oct 10, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> I've been entertaining a story about air ships and sky pirates for ages.
> 
> Have yet to put even a feasible plot together. One day maybe.



That's the hard part. Airborne travel is the least convenient form for this kind of thing, either due to its expensive and experimental nature in the lighter-than-air stage of development, or in how it quickly gains impractical speeds once heavier-than-air models are developed and refined. If you're on mostly flat land, it makes more sense to travel overland; if you're on the sea, then it's more practical to travel by ship. Geographically, your best bets would be either some high-altitude region, with only small islands of solid ground (and perhaps even something dangerous lurking in the depths to add incentive for air travel, as well as amazing engineering feats such as Incan-style bridges, too), or else some fantasy "sky world" that's hard to get back up to even if you survived falling to earth. No matter what, though, the characters in this fantasy world would have to have a compelling and comprehensible reason for resorting to lighter-than-air travel, and in great enough traffic to make piracy worth anyone's while.


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## Taurus Versant (Oct 10, 2008)

I think it's the freedom of movement. On ground or sea, there are only two dimensions to move in, and you're limited by geography.

In the air, you can go anywhere, in any direction.

Sky Pirates would work in that, raiding from the air, they could disappear in any direction, and reach any target.

The main issue is, you'd be obvious.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 10, 2008)

I thought about having airships for a while but I figured it had no place really so I scrapped the idea.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 10, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> That's the hard part. Airborne travel is the least convenient form for this kind of thing, either due to its expensive and experimental nature in the lighter-than-air stage of development, or in how it quickly gains impractical speeds once heavier-than-air models are developed and refined. If you're on mostly flat land, it makes more sense to travel overland; if you're on the sea, then it's more practical to travel by ship. Geographically, your best bets would be either some high-altitude region, with only small islands of solid ground (and perhaps even something dangerous lurking in the depths to add incentive for air travel, as well as amazing engineering feats such as Incan-style bridges, too), or else some fantasy "sky world" that's hard to get back up to even if you survived falling to earth. No matter what, though, the characters in this fantasy world would have to have a compelling and comprehensible reason for resorting to lighter-than-air travel, and in great enough traffic to make piracy worth anyone's while.


A great deal of my story takes place in a country with a large mountainous region. Towns and villages are often built on or in mountains. With the drastic elevation shifts airships are very practical. In countries without elevation shifts they are seen as a luxury items for aristocrats.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 10, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> A great deal of my story takes place in a country with a large mountainous region. Towns and villages are often built on or in mountains. With the drastic elevation shifts airships are very practical. In countries without elevation shifts they are seen as a luxury items for aristocrats.



Once again, traveling without the restraints of two dimensions makes a lot more sense in this case. Also when someone says that when on flat ground or water their impractical. 

Its not if time is an issue. Airships can do a considerable amount of travel in a short time. 

I have new technology in my story to help the characters traverse the world faster. There's a super sonic jet being used, two hours from New York to Tokyo...only thing is its not commercial. It's privately owned by the Vampires. 

Looks like this: 



Just take off the NASA logos.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 10, 2008)

Just take off the NASA logos and it looks like a flying pizza.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 10, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Just take off the NASA logos and it looks like a flying pizza.



That was actually going to be our next space craft (to replace shuttles) but they scraped it. It was a pretty good idea, more efficient and cost effective. Plus they could also travel between cities without the aid of a plane it seems


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## Lord Yu (Oct 10, 2008)

I have several different classes of airships floating around in my head. Civilian types, military types, industrial types, and minicraft.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 15, 2008)

I have been working with my friend and a friend of hers to make this first scene of chapter eight work. I really can't continue on with the story without making sure that a part is at least readable. It just doesn't work for me, not sure why really.


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## Sanity Check (Oct 15, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Once again, traveling without the restraints of two dimensions makes a lot more sense in this case. Also when someone says that when on flat ground or water their impractical.
> 
> Its not if time is an issue. Airships can do a considerable amount of travel in a short time.
> 
> ...




Isn't that NASA's hypersonic transport concept?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 15, 2008)

1mmortal 1tachi said:


> Isn't that NASA's hypersonic transport concept?



Yeah, the X-33, but Boeing actually looked at using it as a commercial airliner.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 15, 2008)

Today I've had several breakthroughs in themes. Many interesting issues such as slavery and stocks.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 20, 2008)

I think I suddenly have different schools of magic in my story. Kind of like how different cultures have different interpretations of magic.


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## Serp (Oct 20, 2008)

I had that already.


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## neko-sennin (Oct 20, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Today I've had several breakthroughs in themes. Many interesting issues such as slavery and stocks.



Stocks as in investment, or as in medieval torture equipment?

Seriously, though, it's always cool when you can find ways to express a compelling theme through your characters.



Lord Yu said:


> I think I suddenly have different schools of magic in my story. Kind of like how different cultures have different interpretations of magic.



It's always interesting to see how many ways a basic concept can be broken down. It's also enlightening to see and understand how cultures (especially religion) can create mental blocks to understanding the mystical and esoteric. By any chance, do you think any of the characters in your story might start to unravel the differences, perhaps arrive a Unified Field Theory of Magic in that world?


*Spoiler*: _WHAT I'VE BEEN UP TO LATELY_ 



Last year, I put together a podcast called the Spooky Door, a mix of all the eerie mood music I listen to for atmosphere when writing some of my stories, and this year, I've put together a sequel.


*Spoiler*: _BACKSTORY BLURB_ 



The Spooky Door Mix started with a 90-minute mix tape I made when I was in college. The idea was a collection of haunting mood music for my writing. It was originally dubbed "Eerie Mix" on the first tape, but it quickly advanced to a second tape, and evolved with every new song I came across that fit the bill, starting with stuff like the Doors, Orbital, Snowpony, and the "Songs in the Key of X" compilation, as well as gems by Beck, No Doubt, the Eels, Rob Zombie, Cake, the Specials, Primus, eventually buidling on with Powerman 5000, At the Drive-In, the Mars Volta, and later, soundtracks such as Silent Hill and Hellsing into a musical Winchester Mansion that gained the name "Spooky Door Mix". In its current form, it is either a massive playlist, or a 7-disc set I burned and sent a couple friends as a gift, but this is the Podcast version, which I have loosely mixed into a kind of "old radio broadcast" format, this year's 7 episodes thematically divided in the same set as each of the previous mix discs, each episode timed to be released at intervals between my birthday (October 18) and Devil's Night (October 30), such that all will have been released by Halloween.




From start to finish, the Spooky Door Mix is a musical journey into darkness, a progression of lyrical and instrumental themes, through one shadowy realm after another, stepping out into the night, drifting through misty waters, a road trip across an eerie landscape to forgotten places and ghost towns, to cross the threshold into haunted places from which few ever return, a place where shadow has substance, where reality comes unwound, and you are on your own against the Unknown...

But to what end? The only way to find out is to press PLAY:

official site


*Spoiler*: _SPOOKY DOOR '08 - I track listing_ 




01 "An Eye Is Upon You" - Powerman 5000
02 "X Files Theme" - Mark Snow
03 "Silent Hill" - Akira Yamaoka
04 "Frank Sinatra" - Cake
05 "Eleanor Rigby" - Beatles
06 "St Lucy's Gate" - Snowpony
07 "Himitsu no Heya" Saitou Tsuneyoshi
08 "Flyswatter" - Eels
09 "Bonediggin'" - the Specials
10 "Riders On the Storm" - the Doors
11 "Red Right Hand" - Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds
12 "Orochimaru's Theme" - Toshio Masuda
14 "Silent Scream" - T S O L
15 "Cantare del Morte" - Tsunami Bomb
16 "The World Without Logos" - Yasushi Ishii
17 "Halloween" - AFI
18 "Rakutenjou" - Saitou Tsuneyoshi
19 "Halloween Americana" - Everclear
20 "Televators" - the Mars Volta
21 "Vanishing" - A Perfect Circle
22 "On the Precipice of Defeat" - Shiro Sagisu
23 "Next Stop: Nowhere" - Akira Yamaoka




Enter ye the Spooky Door, and prepare to take a walk on the dark side...


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## Lord Yu (Oct 20, 2008)

Stocks as investment. As for the study of magic most of my major characters are not students of magic and the sources of magic are already known.

Also@ that thar spooky music. I use creepy music all the time to draw inspiration. I listen to alot of black metal and dark ambient when writing sometimes.


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## neko-sennin (Oct 21, 2008)

*Spooky Door '08 II*



Lord Yu said:


> Also@ that thar spooky music. I use creepy music all the time to draw inspiration. I listen to alot of black metal and dark ambient when writing sometimes.



Cool. While we're at it, the next episode it is up:


*Spoiler*: __ 



SPOOKY DOOR '08 - II - "PYRAMID OF DARKNESS"
01 "Space & Time: Prologue" - Yukari Katsuki & Akihiko Fukaura
02 "No Phone" - Cake
03 "Nothing Can Be Explained" - Mike Wyzgowski
04 "Dance with Night Wind" - Akira Yamaoka
05 "Bodhisattva of Cathedral" - Yasushi Ishii
06 "Day of the Baphomets" - the Mars Volta
07 "Witch" - Kaijura Yuki
08 "Black Magic" - Mitsumune Nobuyoshi
09 "Sasayki" - Sahashi Toshihiko
10 "Shambala" - Beastie Boys
11 "Gyoku Omo Ooyake Shu" - Motoi Sakuraba
12 "Origin Reflection" - Yasushi Ishii / Rhythm Nation
14 "Raw Breath of Danger" - Shiro Sagisu
15 "The Last Mariachi" - Akira Yamaoka
16 "Evil" - Toshio Masuda
17 "Death Shamble" - Akira Yamaoka
18 "Emergence of the Haunted" - Shiro Sagisu
19 "Red Pyramids" - Akira Yamaoka
20 "Lethe" - Yukari Katsuki & Akihiko Fukaura
21 "Take the Veil Serpin Taxt" - the Mars Volta
22 "Fear of Blank Planet (Instrumental)" - Porcupine Tree
23 "Munky River" - Presidents of the United States of America




Same Bat Time, Same Bat Channel.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 21, 2008)

Serp said:


> I had that already.



I'm not doing what you're doing. I'm talking different rituals and chants in different languages. Like say mages that cast spells using items vs summoners or alchemists or people who use certain dances to invoke gods.

Perhaps similar. I don't remember what you're doing with your story.


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## Serp (Oct 21, 2008)

^Lol

I was just trying to be an ass 

But yes it is similar (I think from what I have gathered), as in mine I have different types and interpretations  of magic from different cultures etc etc. For example, the Asians use a more ancestor worship based magic vs the African who use a more shamanistic representation of magic(similar to the Asian but based more on nature spirits than human spirits). 

 thats just a small part of it.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 21, 2008)

Blah, it just means we're both using the real setup of magic. Nothing really original about it.


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## Serp (Oct 21, 2008)

True but Im working on a thing that adds a segregation between them, like people of one type thing the others are primitive etc etc.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 21, 2008)

Just like real life.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 21, 2008)

I'd call it more general xenophobia rather than racism.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 21, 2008)

So I have been working on getting back into the swing of things. Now I realize that I might have major issues with character description on my hands and I might even have to go back and work on it to get it better. I have figured out what I want my characters to be described like and it seems like my work up to this point has been very bare bones with it. 

I think that its hard to find the time to describe all of them, because there are times where you have more than one character in a scene and you want to describe them all. 

So from now on I will be looking at things in a different way when working on the characters and the like. And I will be studying my older writing because I cut out all of the flowery prose when I was writing. 

The thing is I felt what I used to write was pretentious...but at the same time there might be something there I can use. I think I finally have the skill to wash the pretentiousness away and get down to the places where there was good, honest writing and use it.

I've also found a use for my Thesaurus. My teacher from school told me something I really wasn't sure about, she said that I should use it to remind me of words that have slipped my mind, but not to find words to impress or show off. 

So I will be doing that.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 21, 2008)

I've long since learned the art of character description. I started out with nothing but character designs. I can even go down to facial characteristics.



> He stood in front of Her a tall filthy thing dancing on the dirt floor. Long dark tangled curls came down past His shoulders, a just as dirty, curly black beard covered and hung down from his face. His grey eyes expressed a profound madness. His ragged clothing opened to reveal a dangerously gaunt figure, tawny skin wrapped tight over a frighteningly detailed ribcage.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 22, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I've long since learned the art of character description. I started out with nothing but character designs. I can even go down to facial characteristics.



I am okay at writing them, but placement is something I have had trouble with. I have been looking at a lot of literary quotations and compiling lists of words to help me describe better. 

Also Auraya pointed out to me recently that I need to work on making the words I use to describe a character fit the tone of the character or the mood of the scene, so I am going to do that on my edit when this story is done. For now I will continue to compile and work at finding better descriptive words..

I might post some of the list in here...


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## Lord Yu (Oct 22, 2008)

If I come up with a description and can't see a way to fit it in. I stuff them in anyway and figure out away to make it flow in better later.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 22, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> If I come up with a description and can't see a way to fit it in. I stuff them in anyway and figure out away to make it flow in better later.



It's odd, I don't trust myself to edit like that. Half of the time, I tend to tear into a story and edit the start really hard, because that's the part for me that is usually the rockiest because of the fact that when I start out things aren't all in place yet for me to write what I want to write, that's when my editing seems to be most effective it seems. I can print out the first chapter and rip into it, redoing everything that I don't like. 

But for some reason as I get further in its harder and harder for me to edit stuff.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 23, 2008)

My issues with tense are worse than I thought. Time to re-edit 30 pages to past tense because that's clearly what I'm thinking from.

Except for the Gohei piece. I almost never have trouble with tense in the first person.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 24, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> My issues with tense are worse than I thought. Time to re-edit 30 pages to past tense because that's clearly what I'm thinking from.
> 
> Except for the Gohei piece. I almost never have trouble with tense in the first person.



I slip in and out of tense periodically, but I tend to catch it when I read through and quickly fix it. It seems I switch POV characters mid scene sometimes, though. 

And does anyone know where to find good fight scenes to read?


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## Lord Yu (Oct 24, 2008)

That's OK for the 3rd person omni style.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 24, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> That's OK for the 3rd person omni style.



Yeah but the style I think seems more like its third person limited. Funny no one has mentioned it yet when they read it. So it might not be a problem.


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## Serp (Oct 24, 2008)

Im trying something I might be able to pull off, each of my chapters is narrated by a different person and even a few are in full 3rd person.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 24, 2008)

Serp said:


> Im trying something I might be able to pull off, each of my chapters is narrated by a different person and even a few are in full 3rd person.



I thought about that...I just didn't think I would want to pull it off...it takes a very strong connection with my character to write something for them in first person. 

I can do it really, but its harder for a lot of them. Some of them I just find easier to deal with their voice.


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## Lord Yu (Oct 24, 2008)

I think I've finally found my voice in the third person. Finally framing a character feels right.


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## neko-sennin (Oct 25, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It's odd, I don't trust myself to edit like that. Half of the time, I tend to tear into a story and edit the start really hard, because that's the part for me that is usually the rockiest because of the fact that when I start out things aren't all in place yet for me to write what I want to write, that's when my editing seems to be most effective it seems. I can print out the first chapter and rip into it, redoing everything that I don't like.
> 
> But for some reason as I get further in its harder and harder for me to edit stuff.



I used to be the same, errantly believing that because my writing usually gets tighter farther into piece that it didn't need as much attention, but I always found that end was horribly uneven, and there are few things that leave such a sour taste in a reader's mouth than a promising beginning that comes to a weak ending. These days, I work really hard to keep everything in a story up to its own standards.



Lord Yu said:


> I think I've finally found my voice in the third person. Finally framing a character feels right.



There's a balance to it. Especially omni. It's all to easy to spoil everything by making the reader as all-knowing about the situation as the writer, but the trick is to reveal only what's necessary at that point in the story.

And on a completely unrelated note:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Next, embark on a dark road trip in Spooky Door Episode IV.

SPOOKY DOOR '08 - IV track list:
01 "Blast Off to Nowhere (Intro)" - Powerman 5000
02 "Asleep at the Wheel" - Bloodhound Gang
03 "A Car I Didn't Own" - Snowpony
04 "Survival On the Street of Insincerity" - Yasushi Ishii
05 "Long Line of Cars" - Cake
06 "Woman Driving, Man Sleeping" - Eels
07 "She" - Akira Yamaoka
08 "Man of Steel" - Frank Black
09 "I Am the Highway" - Audioslave
10 "Headin' Out" - Presidents of the United States of America
11 "Daisies of the Galaxy" - Eels
12 "The End" - the Doors [w"Dirty Outskirts" "Abandoned Streets" "After Closing Time" - Akira Yamaoka]
14 "Interference" - Akira Yamaoka
15 "Hulahoop Wounds" - At the Drive-In
16 "The Downtown" - Days of the New
17 "Ghost Town" - the Specials
18 "People Are Strange" - the Doors
19 "Restin' Bones" - Primus
20 "Services to Gods (Do of Our Own Accord)" - Akira Yamaoka
21 "Hometown" - Joe Romersa
22 "Silent Hill (Otherside)" - Akira Yamaoka

official site


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## Lord Yu (Oct 25, 2008)

I'm not writing in 3rd person omni. I was referring to CTK. I write in 3rd limited.


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## neko-sennin (Nov 5, 2008)

Just announced earlier in the Cafe:



OniTasku said:


> It was just announced on the news that acclaimed author and director, Michael Crichton, passed away on November 3. He had been battling with cancer for quite some years now, but he finally succumbed to the disease.
> 
> Yet another great loss in the year of 2008. My condolences go out to his family and friends.
> 
> R.I.P Michael Crichton.



We'll miss you, Crichton. Gone, but not forgotten.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 5, 2008)

I thought this thread was done for a minute.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 8, 2008)

I fear my dialogue has lost it's flavor.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Nov 9, 2008)

wow! what a cool thread!
Im glat to find some writers on nf. well my name is dmv and I want to be a graphic novelist. it seems kind of hard to break into the international scene but, writing fiction is the only thing I can do...

well my story now is called *tyrant*. its basically about  slightly dystopian futuristic earth where, ASGARD, a new theocracy polices the world. It is benevolent , but strict on criminals. the main character Seteh al-tahgut, is an agent of goetia, the millitant branch of ASGARD. agents of goetia are all reality manipulators that can manipulate certain domains. all agents are born with their powers, and have a sigil-like birth mark called a logos.

setheh's logos is a set called called eser ha-makot[the ten plagues]
the first half is called nahashiel [serpent of god]. it signifies the wilingness to curse others.with this, setheh knows and can preform every curse ever invented.

setheh's second logos is called  HAshoah ratzach( the disaster of manslaughter).
it defines his role as "war god" in goetia. those who bear HAshoah ratzach can summon any weapon ever made, and has knowledge of all millitary tactics (strategy, martial arts,ect.)

the genre will basicaly be a sennin version of the henshin sentai shows (think power rangers or kamen rider.) and although setheh sounds malicious he is rather nice. his brother asir is the really psychotic one...
a cookie if anyone can name EVERY influence in my (tm) story 
I just need an artist...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 9, 2008)

Outside of the RP section and a few little things on my blog I haven't written anything in weeks. Not sure what caused this, but I need to get over it.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 9, 2008)

I'm trying to figure out where my dialogue writing abilities went. Looking between my story paths the characters in the Gohei path seem to have the most distinctive dialogue patterns. The other paths are a bit of a juggle between theatrical and slightly colloquial yet kinda flat natural dialogue. As my narrative went up it seemed my dialogue went down.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 9, 2008)

lol Youporn in my LD?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 9, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> lol Youporn in my LD?



I have so many tabs open its horrible. But I got it down fast...stupid download made it take twice as long.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 9, 2008)

With the silly mistakes out of the way, it's back to business. I have made progress on developing a magic system. A system of contracts with patron deities.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 9, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> With the silly mistakes out of the way, it's back to business. I have made progress on developing a magic system. A system of contracts with patron deities.



I have to come up with a lot of later concepts that I plan on using. 



Lord Yu said:


> I'm trying to figure out where my dialogue writing abilities went. Looking between my story paths the characters in the Gohei path seem to have the most distinctive dialogue patterns. The other paths are a bit of a juggle between theatrical and slightly colloquial yet kinda flat natural dialogue. As my narrative went up it seemed my dialogue went down.



Sometimes when you write things better on one end, it seems like the other parts are suffering.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 9, 2008)

It could be the introverted and distorted nature of the piece. I dig so deep in the character's head I disregard other characters.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Nov 9, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> With the silly mistakes out of the way, it's back to business. I have made progress on developing a magic system. A system of contracts with patron deities.



that sounds pretty cool
details?

it would be badass if it was like a  3.5 binder


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## Lord Yu (Nov 9, 2008)

Well, there are government offices where you may apply for a contract to study and practice magic. You make a pledge of loyalty to that god, receive their mark and make a sacrifice to them in exchange for their power. After passing exams of course.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Nov 9, 2008)

hmm, the department of magic vestiges. sounds cool.
Is that the only kind of magic? what type of spells are available? is it summoning magic?
sorry, I ask alot of questions when interesting fiction is the subject.

your pact method reminds me of guardian forces(final fantasy 8)+ cleric domains & binder pacts(d&d). unlike those your magic has long waiting lines, and hostile booth reseptionists


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## Lord Yu (Nov 9, 2008)

The contract covers magic usage in general. You have to make the contract or you won't have the ability to use it. In the case of elementals born with innate manipulation abilities they are restricted unless formally licensed. There are other kinds of magic without contracts but they are more dangerous and require great resources to use.


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## Taurus Versant (Nov 9, 2008)

I've always been a fan of the pacts from Drakengard. Any of you guys know of them?


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## dark messiah verdandi (Nov 9, 2008)

@ yu. that's good!!! now that reminds me of contracts from changeling: the lost. 
if Its not clear, the references I am making are from table top & video roleplaying games.

@ taurus. ah, a fellow sqwenix fan! I remember drackengard. the pacts gave you awsome summons (and in a low magic setting! sweet) But! the seals took away usage of body parts. useful ones... can't cast any spells with no tongue.....


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## dark messiah verdandi (Nov 9, 2008)

anyone else on this thread? if so. wanna talk about homebrewed magic systems?
s' a good subject.

ps. until i say "im leaving" . im still on this thread. the online dot just turns off automaticaly.


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## mystictrunks (Nov 9, 2008)

I've been outlining a plot for a graphic novel lately. I liek it but the idea needs to be refined.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Nov 9, 2008)

^post above yours!

nah, what is your graphic novel about?

*im leaving. be back later.*


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## mystictrunks (Nov 9, 2008)

It's about one of my biggest fears, Alzheimer's. It's a classic lone gunman set in Chicago in the 20's. First two parts are pretty standard; the story is set-up and the main characters are introduced, the hero's posse has been formed and all that fun stuff. The twist the hero is armed with a magical firearm that always hits what he's aiming at and only hurts who he wants it to. In exchange for this every time he uses it he ages 10 years over the course of a day. After he ages thirty years he starts showing signs of Alzheimer's and the story shifts to how his group deals with it and how he can continue to fight crime as not only an old man but one who suffers from Alzheimer's.


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## Jello Biafra (Nov 9, 2008)

I currently have three books that I'm in the process of mulling over whether to write or not. The first one is kind of a dramedy fantasy deconstruction, but I'm afraid that the plot I have worked out will be too schizophrenic, being torn between satirical humour and some rather tragic elements.

The second is a modern day dark fantasy, filled with plenty of musings on Heaven and Hell and the poor mortals caught between.

The third is a cyberpunk dystopia, and most likely it will be a whole series of novels in itself should I ever commit to writing it. 

I'm also torn between writing them as regular print novels, or teaming up with an artist to do them as graphic novels.


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## .:Jason:. (Nov 9, 2008)

*Headdesk.* I've been working on this for months and can't settle on a beginning for my _Prlougue_ of all things. Any advice?


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## Tyrael (Nov 9, 2008)

Just write. Your story has to start out somewhere, so why should it not start out as some strange, blind and mute mutant? As you go along you'll see it taking shape more and by the time you finish it, there's only the matter of going back through again and editing it all good. No point waiting for the perfect opening to flow from you, 'cause there ain't one.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 11, 2008)

My plans keep getting more grandiose and epic and I have all the ideas to follow through on the plan. My problem now lies in consistency and dialogue characterization. Anonx was good enough to point out some inconsistency in dialogue. For some reason I don't seem to have any trouble with dialogue one path. (Gohei) but on the others I've fallen flat. It was weird. Just a couple months back I had my dialogue set wonderfully the characters sounded natural(To me at least) and dialogue sequences were flowing fast. I think it might be that since I finally beefed up my narrative skill I've lost my knack for dialogue. I can no longer set accents like I used to and my conversational rhetoric is flat and lacks bite. Maybe it's in my head. I haven't shown much to anyone so it could be neurosis.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 11, 2008)

I have just been resting for the most part and it feels good, I will have to get back in there and start writing soon. Trying to get into a creative writing class next semester.


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## Kabomacho (Nov 11, 2008)

Creative writing classes sound fun, unfortunately I'm too young to join one of those. You have to be at least a junior at my school. I'm not. But I think I'd do well in those classes... if they like fantasy/sci-fi writings.

But right now I've got two main story ideas. One I've been re-writing and editing for five years. It's gotten so much better but it still needs editing... and I'm still in a re-write of it. The other I just started thinking about a few nights ago and started writing last night.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 11, 2008)

Kabomacho said:


> Creative writing classes sound fun, unfortunately I'm too young to join one of those. You have to be at least a junior at my school. I'm not. But I think I'd do well in those classes... if they like fantasy/sci-fi writings.
> 
> But right now I've got two main story ideas. One I've been re-writing and editing for five years. It's gotten so much better but it still needs editing... and I'm still in a re-write of it. The other I just started thinking about a few nights ago and started writing last night.



There is a fatal problem with writing classes and groups. People tend to be big headed and want to tell you like their way is the only way. Its one of the problems I have with writers and other artists in general. But I won't let that stop me from trying a class.


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## neko-sennin (Nov 11, 2008)

Kabomacho said:


> Creative writing classes sound fun, unfortunately I'm too young to join one of those. You have to be at least a junior at my school. I'm not. But I think I'd do well in those classes... if they like fantasy/sci-fi writings.



I've taken a couple creative writing classes along the way, and while they aren't always the worst thing in the world, it's rare to find the right combination of the people to give you any workable criticism. Some cling tightly to methods, teachers often pick favorites (too often over cheap gimmicks like literary references or obscure passages, rather than the overall quality), and all of the students (myself included, back then) thought they were budding geniuses, so there was this constant awkwardness of people wanting to be praised while trying not to step on other people's toes. Though not all classes end with people walking on eggshells, it's often a toss of the dice who you will end up with in that class, in terms of age, maturity, style and thickness of skin, so the best you can hope for is to find a class whose teacher is a good facilitator for creative endeavors.



Kabomacho said:


> But right now I've got two main story ideas. One I've been re-writing and editing for five years. It's gotten so much better but it still needs editing... and I'm still in a re-write of it. The other I just started thinking about a few nights ago and started writing last night.



Rewrites can feel tedious sometimes, but as long as you take the proper time and distance, and make sure you're in a frame of mind to re-immerse yourself in a particular world, then it can be a very enlightening experience that can greatly enhance whatever you've written. If you're stumped on it, you might want to take a break and flow with this new project as far as it will go.

You never know what might come of ideas that lend themselves to immediate writing.


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## Kabomacho (Nov 11, 2008)

neko-sennin said:


> Rewrites can feel tedious sometimes, but as long as you take the proper time and distance, and make sure you're in a frame of mind to re-immerse yourself in a particular world, then it can be a very enlightening experience that can greatly enhance whatever you've written. If you're stumped on it, you might want to take a break and flow with this new project as far as it will go.
> 
> You never know what might come of ideas that lend themselves to immediate writing.



Oh this book, I know the world very well. I know the characters (I haven't taken away a single one, just switched their roles around), I know the land, I know the overall plot. It's just the begging that I never like. But I like this current begging. (I think that's #15, no joke.).



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> There is a fatal problem with writing classes and groups. People tend to be big headed and want to tell you like their way is the only way. Its one of the problems I have with writers and other artists in general. But I won't let that stop me from trying a class.



Ah... that seems like a problem. But I'm not going to change my writing style just to please one person... unless said person is me or it really needs to be changed in places. But I'm still learning. 

I remember when I first started I had wanted to have the first book _published_ within a few years. Now I'm think ten year and I'll be lucky as hell if it gets published.


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## Catterix (Nov 11, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> There is a fatal problem with writing classes and groups. People tend to be big headed and want to tell you like their way is the only way. Its one of the problems I have with writers and other artists in general. But I won't let that stop me from trying a class.



That's ironically why I stopped going into this thread, there were quite a few egos a little while ago.

I think classes could be a good idea, but writing is such a precious thing to many people, and there is just such a variety of styles and methods, that it would become just too personal. 

I personally can't stand books out there that tell people how to write, giving orders on the right balance of timing, emotion, action, etc. Or explaining how it's best to introduce a story. Really, if you need to buy a book on how to write books... You're not really cut out for it from the start.

By the way, which do you think is the "better ideology" for writing? Writing for yourself, or writing for other people? I have a really mixed view on this, so I'm quite curious to know what other people think.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 11, 2008)

I think I went so far into one characters head that I lost touch with the dialogue. Rarrr, Just posting to vent.


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## Tyrael (Nov 11, 2008)

Catterix said:


> That's ironically why I stopped going into this thread, there were quite a few egos a little while ago.
> 
> I think classes could be a good idea, but writing is such a precious thing to many people, and there is just such a variety of styles and methods, that it would become just too personal.
> 
> ...



I'm gonna be an annoying wanker and say neither. People will inevitably swerve towards one or the other and it's not something anyone can change about themselves.

I do think that there are guidelines that can be given in writing-like stylistically it's best to keep adverbs sparse, and such. Writing is very much something that you have to learn and be taught to an extent. No one is born a natural (although there are few born with a lot of potential).

That said, we did give Chee a hard time a while back for her very hardline views on novel writing.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 12, 2008)

Catterix said:


> That's ironically why I stopped going into this thread, there were quite a few egos a little while ago.
> 
> I think classes could be a good idea, but writing is such a precious thing to many people, and there is just such a variety of styles and methods, that it would become just too personal.
> 
> ...



I think that when people look at books on writing, the books don't tell you how to write as much as they give you examples of what to look at in other books and how to formulate ideas and subjects. Its the same as any art form, you can be taught certain things, but true talent is talent. I read a lot of books on writing and its honestly helped me to focus on things, on not to waste side characters and the like, and expert advice is always welcome. Its like taking a cheep writing card. 

I mean these aren't books by nobodies, we're talking people like Orson Scott Card and Stephen King. 

I write for me and people like me, but at the same time I am trying to write fantasy that is for non-fantasy readers...because I don't like fantasy novels much.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 12, 2008)

I write for me and fucked up freaks like me. Maybe it'll get ADD kids reading. But I doubt it. My language is too thick.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 12, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I write for me and fucked up freaks like me. Maybe it'll get ADD kids reading. But I doubt it. My language is too thick.




Yeah I can't write for those ADD kids, I think my plots are too over arching.


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## Tyrael (Nov 12, 2008)

Actually CTK, from what I've read Yu's are worse being overarching and large in the way of plots than yours. Just a lot shorter and snappier in terms of style.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 12, 2008)

My plot is huge. And grows more epic by the day.


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## Kabomacho (Nov 12, 2008)

That's good. I like epic plots!

But I've got a question for you guys:

Do you ever find yourself drawing a crappy map of the world that your story takes place in?


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## Lord Yu (Nov 12, 2008)

No, I fail at drawing so I might get someone else to do it.


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## Writers Block (Nov 13, 2008)

Well, I'm currently focused on young-adult realistic fiction, so, no, I really don't draw many maps.

I'm sure this has been asked before, but, assuming we have a setting and a cast of characters, but no plot, how can this be handled to our advantage? 'Cause I've actually go writer's block over what my story should be about (I reckon that I stink at making realistic plots, something that the common person can identify with.)

I'm actually looking back on my own memories about life at the time (the story is about 8th graders), ta' try to make it even more appealing, and the fact that I cin' remember almost not is certainly not much consolation, and it's blocking me from making a plot that would be likely. I vaguely remember fighting the counselor's office about my schedule, but that would not make a very exciting main plot, just a sub story to throw in.

Does anyone have any advise as ta' how to make a plot tick for this li'l baby of mine? 'Cause I'm drawin' a blank.

(And don't take no concern 'bout writing style: My writin' is in clear, pure English)


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## Lord Yu (Nov 13, 2008)

Actually fighting the councilor's office. Make it wild, build the plot from the characters. That's what I do. There's nothin wrong with dialect especially in dialogue.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Nov 13, 2008)

Lol, egos. I enjoy watching those that have them. Especially those that have no reason to indulge in it.

Personally, I can't /wait/ to be in my Creative Writing course next semester. I know we spend a couple weeks doing solid, in-depth editing and critiquing and I cannot wait to take up that shimmery red pen. And if someone could keep a two-page piece in the same damn tense, for once, I would be friggin' ecstatic.

Mmmph. I have a real bias against the "writers" that are labeled through the prepubescent grapevine within my high school foundations. Pardon, I don't find the wailing, "black" ministrations of a pathetically average "emo kid" who engages in slap-fights with his parentals, interesting.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm having a moment where I've completely lost touch with one character and ruined the chemistry of said character with another. They were such a great duo and now I can't even remember what her character feels like.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 14, 2008)

I think that there is a lot of stuff I need to work on that I want other writes around so that I can talk to them and have help with and stuff. I would really like to try my hand at that co-author stuff again. It was really fun the last time I did, although back then I don't think I realized how much I could learn about writing. 

I remember the first time my really good friend explained to me that you could control the tension in a scene simply by changing the sentence length. I was shocked and in awe of her, I thought she was the most amazing thing. 

Although we both wrote totally different stories and we couldn't have been more different, I think what she taught me works in what I am doing very well.


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## Tyrael (Nov 14, 2008)

Kabomacho said:


> That's good. I like epic plots!
> 
> But I've got a question for you guys:
> 
> Do you ever find yourself drawing a crappy map of the world that your story takes place in?



Nope, most of my world's have no set geography: it kind of all mutates around the world. Still, it would be good to do sometime.



Writers Block said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Imagine a scenario involving your characters, then write. Just keep cycling through interactions and a plot will emerge of it's own volition. You don't need a plot at the start of the story-some specifically avoid having any sort of forward planning as much as some have to meticulously plot each step. Obviously either way is a bit extreme but I wouldn't let the lack of any overarching plot stop you. When you have one you could always rewrite the start as well-at any rate it'll give you practice writing with you characters.



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would say nobody has no ego, and only we say how much of one we deserve. 

You do get the odd person whom will believe that they can ignore all of the rules of popular writing and do it their own way. Either they are a genius or mislead, but neither necessarily is damning (although I daresay the former is obvious).

I like to think that writing books or classes are like ways to solidify your writing. More or less everybody has a style and knows what they want to do with it, but it will give you tips on how to turn your vision into more accessible and readable outcome.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 14, 2008)

Kabomacho said:


> That's good. I like epic plots!
> 
> But I've got a question for you guys:
> 
> Do you ever find yourself drawing a crappy map of the world that your story takes place in?



Someone drew my map for me...oh about four billion years back or so...I heard it changed some since then and continues too...oddly enough its not fast enough to effect things. 



Lord Yu said:


> My plot is huge. And grows more epic by the day.



The dust on my plot grows more epic by the day, top THAT!



Lord Yu said:


> No, I fail at drawing so I might get someone else to do it.



Get the guy who did mine to do it, he did pretty good...



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Lol, egos. I enjoy watching those that have them. Especially those that have no reason to indulge in it.
> 
> Personally, I can't /wait/ to be in my Creative Writing course next semester. I know we spend a couple weeks doing solid, in-depth editing and critiquing and I cannot wait to take up that shimmery red pen. And if someone could keep a two-page piece in the same damn tense, for once, I would be friggin' ecstatic.
> 
> Mmmph. I have a real bias against the "writers" that are labeled through the prepubescent grapevine within my high school foundations. Pardon, I don't find the wailing, "black" ministrations of a pathetically average "emo kid" who engages in slap-fights with his parentals, interesting.



You should read some of the Romantic Poets, namely Wordsworth, he's no better than those "emo" kids to which you refer. But its nothing to make fun of really because teen years are hard to get through and its good if people have an expressive outlet. I use my stories, even though I am not a teen the older I get the darker my writing gets. 

And I hate editing with a passion.


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## Kabomacho (Nov 14, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> And I hate editing with a passion.



Here here. So do I. But I just edit it when I type it into word. Though, I do a crap job. I might need to take a class on it... I hate grammar though. I can write well, I just can't name anything besides a subject, verb, and adjective.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 14, 2008)

I've been working on a political map in my head as of late. Toying with free market systems vs absolute monarchies, oligarchies, and pseudo democracies. I keep running into interesting walls when it comes to political motivators.


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## Kabomacho (Nov 14, 2008)

By that you mean what each country/territory should be like, correct?


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## Lord Yu (Nov 14, 2008)

I know what they're like. My main curiosity is conflicts of interest. My world is a world that largely operates on a theocratic monarchy system. West Versatia vs East Versatia. Thinking about it's also kind of about gender conflicts as well as West Versatia is very matriarchal while the the East is Patriarchal/Egalitarian.


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## Kabomacho (Nov 14, 2008)

Oh, I get it. Hmmm, that's a good idea. Right now I've got only two main countries in my story. Urm vs. Lodam. I may need to add more, but if I do I'd add them at a later book. That reminds me, I should re-draw my map tonight...


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## Lord Yu (Nov 14, 2008)

I have a around 14-16 countries on 3 continents. Versatia is one of those continents.


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## Kabomacho (Nov 14, 2008)

Hmmm, nice. I've only got one continent... well Urm is kinda on another one so one and a quarter. I was going to add in a few more along the way (three books in, if I recall correctly.). But it must be confusing to remember what each country is known for. 

Do you write down summaries of the countries for notes, or just remember them?


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## Lord Yu (Nov 14, 2008)

For the most part I have them memorized. Maybe it's time I write it down.


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## Kabomacho (Nov 14, 2008)

Wow, that's a lot to memorize. I should write them down, but I doubt I'd be able to without loosing interest fast. Maybe bullet points along the way...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 14, 2008)

I need to work on the way I will develop a map when I get to Hell...of course I need to write some too for that to even become a possibility.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 14, 2008)

You could always forgo maps for something like Hell afterall in it's general concept it's everchanging.


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## Kabomacho (Nov 14, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I need to work on the way I will develop a map when I get to Hell...of course I need to write some too for that to even become a possibility.



Try writing during school. I find it harder to write at home when I could be sitting on the computer or playing video games. So I get most of my writing done at school, math class to be exact. I get at least twenty minutes of writing from the fifty minute period. And I get all my work done, sometimes before class is over.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 14, 2008)

I do all my writing at home and most of my thinking at school.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 14, 2008)

Kabomacho said:


> Try writing during school. I find it harder to write at home when I could be sitting on the computer or playing video games. So I get most of my writing done at school, math class to be exact. I get at least twenty minutes of writing from the fifty minute period. And I get all my work done, sometimes before class is over.



I take internet classes, but next year I will have to write at school, creative writing class.


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## Kabomacho (Nov 14, 2008)

Nice. I take a computer class too, but I wont dare to write in there. I need all of my time to finish early so I can play flash games. XD I'm one of the best in class at tanks.... sometimes.


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## Mashy (Nov 15, 2008)

Anyone willing to post excerpts of their developing novel? I think it'd be sweet to read.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 15, 2008)

I posted my intro pages back.


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## chaosakita (Nov 15, 2008)

Is anyone here willing to help me make my story better? I really have ideas I want to write out, but I think the execution is just awful.


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## Tyrael (Nov 15, 2008)

chaosakita said:


> Is anyone here willing to help me make my story better? I really have ideas I want to write out, but I think the execution is just awful.



Only you can make your story better- I am sure we would be happy to give you a shove in the right direction though.

I would advise you to consider any advice a mediocre writer like me would hand out carefully, though. Advice and criticism is a funny thing and as much as you need to take notice of it, just as much it warrants only to be ignored.


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## chaosakita (Nov 15, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Only you can make your story better- I am sure we would be happy to give you a shove in the right direction though.
> 
> I would advice you to consider any advice a mediocre writer like me would hand out carefully, though. Advice and criticism is a funny thing and as much as you need to take notice of it, just as much it warrants only to be ignored.



Thanks! That'd be great, but is there any way I could contact you (I prefer instant messaging).


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## Tyrael (Nov 15, 2008)

If you have MSN you could add me: christopher_dowie@hotmail.com.


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## Taurus Versant (Nov 16, 2008)

I have started Freedom from the Sword. I am happy.


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## Serp (Nov 16, 2008)

I see you stuck with the freedom from the sword


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## Taurus Versant (Nov 16, 2008)

Indeed. The title stayed with me. Now it's begun, I just need to start collecting readers before it gets too large.


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## Tyrael (Nov 17, 2008)

I'm gonna write an eight part series, made of different characters in different contexts doing different things. Do they connect you ask?

Well they do, quit being so cynical. It really doesn't help you make any friends.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 17, 2008)

My POV cast seems to be expanding. Thanks to the depth of some of my themes I've had to expand. I haven't done that ever.


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## Tiger (Nov 18, 2008)

Not sure if I posted this before, but I just wanted a quick place to host it for reference.


*Spoiler*: __ 



The rain felt cold against his already wet face, but this night of all nights it did not bother him. The wind picked up a bit and died down rhythmically, but from where he stood, the world was his. Peering over the edge, he could see a couple umbrellas moving around on the sidewalk below.

Looking up at the moon, he closed his eyes and let the water run smoothly down his grizzled face. He had always hated the rain, but he could never explain why. The rain this night was the kind that just can't wait to hit the ground, and he was already soaked to the skin.

Earlier that night it had been clear when he climbed the last flight of stairs and broke onto the roof. It wasn't the tallest building in the city, but it was damn close. Shortly after he walked to the ledge, he felt the first drops. Now, the onslaught was so thick he could barely see anywhere around him. It was disorienting, and he wondered if it was partly because of what he knew he came there to do. The only way he could see clearly was down, and finally the last umbrella was gone.

Taking a deep breath, he stepped up onto the ledge. It wasn't a matter of whether he would or not now, it was only a matter of how long he could stand there.

His mind raced, and for a moment his body's natural impulse to pull back almost took him. Bracing himself against the statue beside him, he closed his eyes again and grabbed one of the thoughts from his turbulent mind. 'Am I ready for this?' As he concentrated on the question, all other thoughts melted away and he stared across the gap at the next building over.

He involuntarily wrapped his arms in front of his body and closed his eyes.

"Beautiful night, isn't it?" A voice broke the long silence.

The man on the ledge was so startled, he nearly fell, but managed to grab hold of the statue.

"What the hell?" He yelled. He looked toward the spot he had heard the voice, but he could only see darkness.

Confused, he looked around.

"Who's there?" He asked tentatively. He openly wondered to himself if he had imagined the voice, and almost turned back to the ledge.

A small scratching sound drew his attention back to the first place he looked and he saw a small flame. Clearing his vision a bit he realized someone was holding a match. As the match came upwards it disappeared for a moment before it was discarded. His eyes followed the match until it hit the ground with a fizzle. As he looked back towards the other man, he could make out his outline. The man was wearing all black, which was why he hadn't been able to see him.

"What the hell, indeed." The man said in a scratchy voice, lifting his head to look at the jumper. He wore a wide-brimmed black hat that protected his face and freshly-lit cigarette from the rain. He also wore a long coat, gloves and boots of the same color. Lifting one hand to his mouth, he took a long drag of his cigarette and slowly breathed out the smoke.

The man on the ledge edged away from the new arrival, flattening himself further against the statue.

"You a cop? Don't try and stop me." He hissed the last part, sounding odd to his own ears.

The man in black held up his hands in a defensive gesture, his cigarette pressed between his lips.

"I wouldn't dare do such a thing." He said, putting his hands in his pockets.

The jumper looked the man over, from the clothes to the unshaven face, with its sharp features. He decided the man wasn't a cop after all.

"So who are you?" He asked the man in black.

In response, the man walked to the ledge and peered over, tossing the butt of his cigarette over and leaning against the railing. He looked at the jumper and shrugged his shoulders, before taking out another cigarette from a pocket somewhere and cupping his hands to his face to light it.

Once he had taken a long drag, he took a deep breath.

"I'm not really sure anymore." He said.

The jumper was confused for a second, but got over it quickly. He accepted the answer, and in his dark frame of mind it seemed to make sense.

"You might want to get out of here, unless you want to watch me jump." He said calmly, looking back over the edge.

"Why would you want to do something like that?" The man asked, lighting another cigarette. "What's your name?" He continued before the other man had a chance to speak.

"F-Frank, and what's it to you? I have my reasons." He said over his shoulder.

"For you to be up here, they must be some pretty big reasons." The man said, taking another long drag of his cigarette.

Frank tried to ignore the man, but the words began to bring memories to him. Tears threatened to run down his face along with the rain, but he stamped them down.

"Or maybe they're really not much, and you're just being a child?" The man offered.

Frank snapped. "What the hell would you know about it?" Now tears were flowing from his eyes, but he didn't care. It was hard to see anyway.

The other man shrugged his shoulders, but didn't move. "I just don't think anything could be bad enough to make you stand up here, on a night like this." He said evenly.

Scenes of the past few months raced through Frank's mind. Catching his wife in bed with his best friend was the catalyst of course, and he said that out loud. Then the divorce hearing where he lost custody of their youngest son was next.

"That's it?" The man in black asked, tossing his cigarette butt over the edge.

Frank was astonished. Everyone he told his story to sympathized with him, or felt pity. This man was chuckling at him.

"Go to Hell man, my world was taken from me in less than a month. I've been trying to deal with it, even my psychiatrist doesn't want me around. I don't want to live anymore, do you have a problem with that?"

"No. I just have a problem with your reasoning. You have two sons, right? What about the oldest?"

"He lives on his own, he hates me."

"Well, I doubt that. I'm sure he doesn't like you, but you're still his father. And what about the youngest? You lost custody, that doesn't mean you can't see him now and then, right?"

"One hour every Sunday, supervised. Yeah, what a great relationship that would be." Frank snapped.

The other man lowered his hat slightly against the rain which was coming down harder. A cigarette appeared at the corner of his mouth and he lit it, twirling the used match over the ledge.

"He still needs a father, doesn't he? You sound selfish. Think about it, Frank, what will happen to your sons when they find out you killed yourself? Who do you think they'll blame?"

When Frank didn't respond for a few seconds, the man in black took a long drag and continued.

"Well, the oldest might blame himself for not being closer with you, but the younger one will most definitely blame his mother. Have you thought about any of this aside from how you feel? Have you always been this selfish, Frank?"

"Rot in hell." Frank replied.

The other man smirked, but continued.

"Who else depends on you, Frank? What about the people at your store? What will they do when you're gone?"

"They'll be fine...well, they might lose their jobs but they'll probably find other ones...did I mention my store to you?" He asked, suddenly confused.

"You must have." The man replied. "So by taking the easy way out, you not only aren't curing anyone's pain, but you're adding to everyone around you. This can't be about just your wife. You can get another woman; you're not ugly or deformed, Frank. What's your problem?"

"No one will even notice I'm gone..." Frank whispered.

"You know that's a lie. So what if you still love her, you're not that old yet. You still have half of your life to live. Your kids need to know they have a father when they grow up. Don't you think they'll be screwed up in the head knowing their father jumped off a high-rise?"

Frank couldn't speak; he simply hugged his arms around him tighter, and closed his eyes. The other man placed his hands back in his pockets and took a step toward Frank, still leaning against the ledge railing.

"Is that what you want for your kids? To be messed up in life because of you? Of course not. It's not too late; I'm the only one who knows you're up here. You can come down, go back home to bed. In the morning you can wake up, and get your life back on track. You can go call your son, and apologize for whatever you did. You can do all of this, your life should mean something."

Frank opened his eyes, and his arms dropped to his sides. He looked over his shoulder at the other man's piercing, blue eyes. 

"You think that's true? My sons need me, even if I'm not there in their life all the time, right?"

"Of course they do, what did you think? They would replace you like a hamster?" The man in black scoffed, tossing his cigarette butt off the ledge.

"You're right...being up here was only for me, I...I never even thought about what my actions would do to them." Fresh tears leaked down his face, and he steadied himself against the statue as a strong wind came up.

The man in black nodded slowly.

"They need a father, and you need your sons. You need to see the youngest graduate still; you need to make sure the oldest gets help for his addiction. You need to see and do so much; your life should have immense meaning."

Frank sobbed quietly, nodding his head. He didn't remember mentioning Scott's addiction to cocaine, but he didn't trust his mind much anymore.

"You're right, I need to live for them, if not for myself."


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## Tiger (Nov 18, 2008)

ctd'


*Spoiler*: __ 




The other man nodded.

"Thank you. Seriously, you saved my life tonight. I would have jumped had you not come up here." He started to walk across the ledge, holding the statue for support.

"You don't need to thank me, Frank. In fact, you really shouldn't."

The man in black moved to help Frank into a sitting position on the ledge.

"What do you mean?" Frank asked, trying to get down off the ledge. The other man held him where he was.

"You're of no use to me if you go willingly, Frank. I needed you to realize your life was important to you, so that your death would mean something. Don't worry, most people die of a heart-attack half-way down."

And with that, the man in black shoved Frank backwards.

He stood there, peering over the edge for a few minutes, as the wind howled louder around him and the rain pelted him harder.

Taking a deep breath, the man turned his sparkling blue eyes up to the moon and his coat started to flail wildly around him. As the wind picked up stronger, and his coat whipped more fiercely, it started to break up into small parts. All at once, his body broke up into a hundred black crows, and they flew off into every direction.

Just another night for Death.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 19, 2008)

An Excerpt:


*Spoiler*: __ 




A beam of light cut through the darkened living room as Madeleine pushed through the front door of her loft. The side of her body was pressed flush against the door as she fought to free the keys from deadbolt. The entire building was newly renovated; as such things hadn?t been completely smooth with the move in. 

Her front door stuck. It took her body weight to make it budge. The keys would get stuck in the lock and it could take several moments to free them. Over all it wasn?t a bad place, it just had its quirks. She spun the keys away from the wall, then back and pulled them free of the door knob. 

Once inside the whole place smelled of fresh plaster, paint and lumber. She slapped her hand to the wall searching for the light switch as she slipped out of her heels and kicked them off to the side of the door. 

With the switch flicked the room was instantly illuminated. She had to scoff at her own efforts with the moving process. She?d unpacked only the essentials in the three days since the last of her things had arrived from England. 

Great towers of cellophane wrapped cardboard rose up around the room. The boxes were stacked and arranged in such a way that she could make it through the room without having to walk around anything. There were no boxes where her flat screen television hung on the wall and none directly in front of the couch. 

But the kitchen table was covered in containers that were filled to the brim with cookware, dishes and nonperishable foods. She?d been too lazy to make the effort to prepare food at home, so it had suited her for the time being to eat out. She made her way through the room, her feet slipping on the smooth tile some as she walked. 

As she moved past the television she cupped her hand underneath it hitting the power button. The station was tuned to CNN, it was too late for her to catch the six o?clock news and she didn?t want to wait for the later showing. 

Madeleine stopped next to the small counter that fenced off the kitchenette. She arched her back forward, bracing her hands against her lower back and trying to stretch. Her back gave a few short pops and then she stopped with a sigh. She undid her shoulder holster, placing the gun upon the counter with the harness still attached. 

The news reporter droned on about trouble on Israel?s West Bank as she unfastened her shirt and slung it over the kitchen chair that was still wrapped in cardboard and cellophane from packing. She stood there momentarily in her tank top and examined the wound on her arm. It had already sealed up and even scabbed over to the point it was completely closed. She figured it best to remove the gauze and let it breathe now.

As she went to discard the materials that had dressed the wound the sparkle of the city out her back window caught her eye. Her dinner table was situated right next to the big window and patio she had, the patio itself hung out into the air six stories up and overlooked a prominent Houston neighborhood. 

The sun set earlier as a sign of winter?s approached. The sky was already shrouded in darkness when she arrived home that night. But as she stood at the sliding glass door to the back patio she noticed for the first time the distant burning lights of the city and their beauty. Each skyscraper in the distance was only discernible because of the multitude of lights that formed its outline, like a man made constellation.

She stared out over the city with her hand poised in chestnut ringlets that cascaded down off her neck. It took her a moment to tear her eyes away from the cityscape out her window, but she had work to do. 

Madeleine entered the kitchen and took a bottle of wine from the fridge. She popped the top off and commenced pouring it into the first viable container she saw, a measuring cup. Leaving the bottle where she?d placed it, she walked back into the living room, placed the cup on a short stack of boxes near the couch that had served her as a table. 

She made her way over a box that sat off to the side of the television, it was a huge box still taped at the top and marked clearly down the side: BOOKS. She jabbed the crimson nail of her index finger through the tape and then used the rest of her hand to rip the tape open. The box was full of old leather bound books. Even though she had just packed them in the box a week before, there was a heavy dust in the box. 

Carefully she lifted the first few volumes from the box until she came down to an older looking book with a brick red leather cover smooth from years of wear. On the spine of the grimoire was an exquisite gold lettering in an Old English typeface that read: The Lesser Key of Solomon.

?Here it is,? she said to herself as turned back to walk over to the couch. She sat down on the suede couch with the book in her lap and opened it to the center. She flipped back through the book. What she wanted to read about was near the center, she knew it. As she thumbed back through the pages she spotted a picture of an eye and stopped. 

She smoothed the page down with her hands and studied it, sure enough it was just what she had thought. The woman that had attacked them out the house earlier wasn?t herself. It wasn?t due to narcotics the way that Jadon had said, it was something far more sinister. Madeleine read over the text and shook her head in disbelief, ?I knew I had seen this somewhere before.? 

The text spoke of a loose bonded type of demonic possession, it was something she had never seen in person; she had never even seen a demonic possession. But she had read about them. This type of possession actually didn?t hold like others, when the person was knocked out or incapacitated, they came to.

A picture of an eye with a tear of blood running from its corner confirmed it, this type of possession was what they had come across. The rough voice also happened to be mentioned in the text as did the aggressive nature of the demon?s attacks. 

Madeleine shook her head, ?Something?s dodgy,? she paused to think, ?Jadon said he knew what the ectoplasm was and that he had seen it before?but anyone who?s seen that stuff would have to know what a demonic possession looks like, even a rare form.? 

With a sigh she said, ?He?s hiding something the fact that he knows this?that has to be it.? She flipped through the book a little more looking for more on the phenomena, ?But what else is he hiding from me?? she asked herself aloud.

She took the measuring cup, wrapping her tapered fingers around it and drank slowly from it. Her jade slumberous eyes peered lifelessly at the television screen in front of her as she swished the wine around her mouth with a sluggish tongue. Finally she let out a short sigh, she didn?t have any clue as to what to do about Jadon. She wondered if he could be trusted at all now. More than that, she wondered if her superiors had sent her here solely because they had some kind of clue as to what Jadon was into. 

Her contacts from the Yard weren?t here to help her. She would have to use her own resourcefulness.


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## Boromir (Nov 20, 2008)

Some time ago i finished writing the closest thing to what i could call my first novel. With 206 pages, its one of the things i'm proudest of on this world, for the moment, but it truly seemed MUCH more professional and well-written as i was writing it. Now i'm half-way through correcting mistakes in the story, and this a helluva lot harder than writing the book itself.

For anyone that's interested, or who could give me advice as fellow aspiring authors who have more experience than me, here's the an informative overview of the book which i wrote up to give to the English teachers who've accepted to look through it:




*Spoiler*: __ 




Information:

Theme of novel: The psychological, mental and physical elements shown in a desperate scenario that has a final outcome of absolute and utter hopelessness. It further deals with the psychological consequences of not giving up body and spirit, and continuing a fight against impossible odds.

Can be compared with: ‘On the Beach’ by Nevil Shute (But there is a MAJOR difference- On the Beach deals with the despondence and indifference of humans doomed to die. This novel deals with people doomed to die, but not surrendering and continuing to scurry for their lives, even though the antagonist (the new animal species) is a superior race which ‘naturally’ deserves to biologically inherit the Earth. In a way, it can simply be seen as an alternative to 'On the Beach' 's motif and theme, but the people's urge to live on is not connected to selfishness, greed or the like. It deals more with the survival of love, family and friendship than people. And yet, it is all apparently doomed to be lost forever.

Genres included (considered to be in the novel): 
Major: Drama, angst, psychological horror, science fiction, bildungsroman, apocalyptic/post-apocalyptic, tragedy, war (in a sense), romance

Note: Attempts to incorporate religious symbolism were used, but this plays no major role for some time

Incorporates elements of:
1.	Vulgar language/ Strong Language
2.	Explicit/ Strong Violence and Gore

All used poems/quotes have been sourced by detailing their author.

On the third page is the poem ‘All Things Will Die’ by Alfred Tennyson. The next page is not to be included in the final version of the book, but is exclusively for the editor to know the origin of the possible title. Everything from the 4th (This is the first) page onwards is to be included in the final version.






Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> An Excerpt:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Impressive. EXTREMELY impressive. You enhance the effect of the descriptions of the little details by employing a wide vocabulary of words. Those deep details (eg. missing the 6'oclock CNN) is also well intertwined with the flowing narrative surrounding them.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 20, 2008)

Boromir said:


> Some time ago i finished writing the closest thing to what i could call my first novel. With 206 pages, its one of the things i'm proudest of on this world, for the moment, but it truly seemed MUCH more professional and well-written as i was writing it. Now i'm half-way through correcting mistakes in the story, and this a helluva lot harder than writing the book itself.
> 
> For anyone that's interested, or who could give me advice as fellow aspiring authors who have more experience than me, here's the an informative overview of the book which i wrote up to give to the English teachers who've accepted to look through it:
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot, I couldn't decide whether to post this or the fight the preceded it. Honestly I think this was one of my best days of writing. I did that scene in about and hour and when I finished I felt like I had done a weeks work...it was odd. 

I looked over what you have there, it sounds something like what I am working with here. Only thing is I am trying to keep it from crossing into the realm of religious fiction (I don't want to become Left Behind) but I think I stayed away with that pretty much. 

To be honest, your avatar distracted the Hell out of me.


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## Boromir (Nov 20, 2008)

The avatar is fulfilling its deadly purpose. 

No, i actually don't have any religious fiction in my book WHATSOEVER, but as i said, there's a lot of religious SYMBOLISM (a character being 'the martyr', a cross-shaped intersection). If you understood that it's religious fiction because of the 'doomed to die' detail, its actually because the antagonist is apparently COMPLETELY UNSTOPPABLE. No 'salvation and Jesus Hallelujah' involved at all. I don't think i ever even have a church in my book.

I don't like actual religious fiction, like Left Behind, AT ALL. But i just think that religious symbolism is a nice little literary style.

From my point of view, its one of the things that made Neon Genesis Evangelion so damn great. Amongst many other things.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 20, 2008)

Boromir said:


> The avatar is fulfilling its deadly purpose.
> 
> No, i actually don't have any religious fiction in my book WHATSOEVER, but as i said, there's a lot of religious SYMBOLISM (a character being 'the martyr', a cross-shaped intersection). If you understood that it's religious fiction because of the 'doomed to die' detail, its actually because the antagonist is apparently COMPLETELY UNSTOPPABLE. No 'salvation and Jesus Hallelujah' involved at all. I don't think i ever even have a church in my book.
> 
> ...



I love Evangelion totally. 

Sorry if I offended. I am not really writing that kind of thing either, I mean there are Angels and Demons in the book later, but I wouldn't say that the book is totally biblical and the like. 

I take influences from a lot of religious texts, but the characters themselves aren't your model religious heroes, not by a long shot. I could go into deeper details and the like. At the same time, I want the characters to kind of have certain things to them, you know?


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## Lord Yu (Nov 20, 2008)

My story is more political in regards to religion. I tend to not like attacking people with tired symbolism and allegories.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 20, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> My story is more political in regards to religion. I tend to not like attacking people with tired symbolism and allegories.



I read your shit man...very impressive in terms of description and flow. I don't really see the pacing trouble people talked of. I haven't finished it yet but I assure you I will. Just the opening lines caught me. 



Law said:


> ctd'
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Don't think we ignored you, I actually remember this. You wrote it around the time that I was coming up with the concepts that later became Dee or actually it might have been after I wrote one or two things with her. But this concept stuck with me, and I really liked the idea. 

You should work more on it.


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## Boromir (Nov 20, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I love Evangelion totally.
> 
> Sorry if I offended. I am not really writing that kind of thing either, I mean there are Angels and Demons in the book later, but I wouldn't say that the book is totally biblical and the like.
> 
> I take influences from a lot of religious texts, but the characters themselves aren't your model religious heroes, not by a long shot. I could go into deeper details and the like. At the same time, I want the characters to kind of have certain things to them, you know?



None taken at all. 

I get what your getting at. But if there's something i enjoy- and this probably sounds perverse- is the utter corruption of a character that you would, as a subtle reader, recognize as the principal 'good guy'. That's why i always build up at least two characters more than any other- so that one of them, if i so wish it, can snap and show that no-one's absolutely perfect mentally. Then, of course, a character to contrast this is necessary, a person who does not shine and stick out but is whole.

In short, i like unexpected mental twists.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 20, 2008)

Boromir said:


> None taken at all.
> 
> I get what your getting at. But if there's something i enjoy- and this probably sounds perverse- is the utter corruption of a character that you would, as a subtle reader, recognize as the principal 'good guy'. That's why i always build up at least two characters more than any other- so that one of them, if i so wish it, can snap and show that no-one's absolutely perfect mentally. Then, of course, a character to contrast this is necessary, a person who does not shine and stick out but is whole.
> 
> In short, i like unexpected mental twists.



I have a few characters who are mostly pure, but they will corrupt over time. I don't really like the idea of having someone who is completely pure. But when you have people doing all sorts of deviant things, like having sex in SWAT vans and letting the mob get a free pass so that you can import a bunch of religious weapons, its hard to call some one straight good.


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## Tyrael (Nov 21, 2008)

> I’ve been sitting in this room a while; letting my fingers drum on the computer keys. The university library is hardly a place of great emptiness, but at the moment it is deserted. I sit in one of the side rooms where there are more computers, whereas out in the foyer there are arrays of circular tables, to work and read on, between two opposite rows of computers that stare each other down. Preferring the increased intimacy of the side room I chose to flee from that eternal stand-off.
> 
> The odd head is poking around the door and glancing at the empty legions of computers, me their sole occupant, and leaving in another moment. Why? It can’t be that they have no interest in using computers otherwise they would not look. What is it they see? Is that they can see something I don’t or that I see something they can’t? I doubt it is the latter seeing as I chose room so that I could reject acknowledgement of the world outside of my head.
> 
> ...



Me? Do some work? I remember a time when I did that.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Nov 23, 2008)

I have just come to say that as of six PM Central Standard time I have crossed the 51,500 word mark in my story. I honestly didn't know I was that far along until I combined it to give Tyrael an accurate word count on what I had done. I guessed I was about 25 K in at the most. I am really happy though, this is the most one of my stories has been in some time. Here's to the hope I can keep it up!


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## neko-sennin (Nov 27, 2008)

Taurus Versant said:


> I have started Freedom from the Sword. I am happy.



I've seen it, and I'll have to check it out when I get a moment. The concepts you were talking about in here sounded quite interesting.



Lord Yu said:


> My POV cast seems to be expanding. Thanks to the depth of some of my themes I've had to expand. I haven't done that ever.



Ah, it's always interesting when characters or situations take on additional implications you didn't count on. It means you did a helluva job on the world-building effort (even if you weren't aware of it at the time) if it picks up layers of depth and starts moving behind your back. Have fun.



Boromir said:


> Some time ago i finished writing the closest thing to what i could call my first novel. With 206 pages, its one of the things i'm proudest of on this world, for the moment, but it truly seemed MUCH more professional and well-written as i was writing it. Now i'm half-way through correcting mistakes in the story, and this a helluva lot harder than writing the book itself.



That it is. Even after looking over whole portions of my Tradewinds stories, of which the current versions range from 3rd to _5th_ drafts that have been revising repeatedly over the years, I still find myself fixing glitches and making little tweaks even as I post them. As I'm sure you're noticing, it is a task that can be every bit as challenging-- and every bit as important-- as writing the story in the first place.



Boromir said:


> I don't like actual religious fiction, like Left Behind, AT ALL. But i just think that religious symbolism is a nice little literary style.
> 
> From my point of view, its one of the things that made Neon Genesis Evangelion so damn great. Amongst many other things.



Someone else who loves the fun-house mirror effect of taking symbols out of their original context? I think we're gonna get along just fine.



Lord Yu said:


> My story is more political in regards to religion. I tend to not like attacking people with tired symbolism and allegories.



Sounds like you've got a good grasp of how religion actually functions on a macro scale, regardless of individual beliefs. Even in stories where gods _do_ exist, they do tend to just be high-level politicians, don't they? I guess the Chinese were on to something with their Heavenly Bureaucracy.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I have just come to say that as of six PM Central Standard time I have crossed the 51,500 word mark in my story. I honestly didn't know I was that far along until I combined it to give Tyrael an accurate word count on what I had done. I guessed I was about 25 K in at the most. I am really happy though, this is the most one of my stories has been in some time. Here's to the hope I can keep it up!



Sounds like I've got a lot of catching up to do when my Holiday and Archival projects are finished. Good work. Keep it up.


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## Serp (Nov 27, 2008)

I finally posted part of the first chapter of "The Blood in the Stone" just waiting for reviews.


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## Tiger (Nov 27, 2008)

How many of you guys draw the characters you create for your stories?
If I could, I definitely would. Having a picture helps me so much. I like to get very detailed with clothing and equipment.

I wish I knew someone of great artistic talent who didn't mind drawing my characters for me any time I wanted. 

But that's pretty much impossible to find. I was just curious if I'm the only one who would kill for a picture of the things I visualize in my mind.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 27, 2008)

Tried seeking artists but gave up. I doubt any artist can deal with my perfectionism anyway.


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## Sky is Over (Nov 27, 2008)

Oh, I just come to this thread and feel like a piece of shit for not working on my story!  *Plus, before I left off to boot, my computer crashed and took my works along with it.*

But I have been working on a detailed outline that will serve me good come the time I actually decide to get deeper into my story, even though it's a bitch that I don't have an all-time internet acess to help me gain info. when I need it. 

But what's the brother site of fan-fiction or C2? Trying to read some stories for "inspiration."


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## Lord Yu (Nov 27, 2008)

Just pick up some books.


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## Sky is Over (Nov 27, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Just pick up some books.



It's easy to pick up a book, but getting into it is another deal. 

But anywyas, I just need a URL to the site.

I've also heard of this new book "Twlight," that's kinda big, but they say it goes against the originality of vampires, right?

And would the term "chronicles" refer to ten?


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## Lord Yu (Nov 27, 2008)

You just need to find the right book. 
Twilight is a mess of Mary Sue and Gary Stu romance. Not quite something you'd go to for inspiration unless you want to learn how not to do things. 
Chronicles does not refer to a specific number.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 1, 2008)

So I think I might start on the nu-noir love story tonight if I can. Not a big rushed start. Something small. I am kind of nervous about the first person thing again. It didn't work that well before. But I feel like this story warrants it.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 1, 2008)

I've been working alot as of late. I still can't seem to kickstart the Michelle part of the story. I've had some breakthroughs though. Dark ones. For the first time in awhile I think I feel some sort of ending for her path is on the horizon of my mind. Though far from so on paper. Gohei has been the only POV character with an ending since forever.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Dec 1, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> So I think I might start on the nu-noir love story tonight if I can. Not a big rushed start. Something small. I am kind of nervous about the first person thing again. It didn't work that well before. But I feel like this story warrants it.


 
Good luck. =)

I am also beginning a story tonight, _Aima_ . . . though what usually happens is I don't get much further than a rough outline. A little wary; the idea isn't well-formed yet. 

Just need to research a little on common trends of PTSD victims.


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## Pan-on (Dec 1, 2008)

I think my problem with writing in general is a lack of planning before I begin, in my opinion if you want what your writing to be deep in any sense of the word it requires you to think about themes, symbols, character development and plot before you begin, what I want to know is how much do other people plan before they begin and how do they do it? A rough outline of the plot, a list of characters and their motivations or a detailed plan of every scene?


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## Lord Yu (Dec 1, 2008)

I let most of the symbolism and some of the themes develop themselves. I start with a few characters . Usually only one perspective character is needed for me to begin and I let the rest roll from there.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 1, 2008)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Good luck. =)
> 
> I am also beginning a story tonight, _Aima_ . . . though what usually happens is I don't get much further than a rough outline. A little wary; the idea isn't well-formed yet.
> 
> Just need to research a little on common trends of PTSD victims.



I think that I will try and work on my large story some more now. I know that if I sit on it too long without touching it I will start to forget what I am doing, mostly because of the fact that its so long and I lost some of my notes for the story. 



Anonx said:


> I think my problem with writing in general is a lack of planning before I begin, in my opinion if you want what your writing to be deep in any sense of the word it requires you to think about themes, symbols, character development and plot before you begin, what I want to know is how much do other people plan before they begin and how do they do it? A rough outline of the plot, a list of characters and their motivations or a detailed plan of every scene?



I don't do too much planning really, I have a basic idea but most of it is in my head and usually know exactly where I want things to go.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 4, 2008)

When I think about it I'd much rather have a thick book than a series. Given my pace compared to my plot arch it could go either way.


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## Tyrael (Dec 5, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> When I think about it I'd much rather have a thick book than a series. Given my pace compared to my plot arch it could go either way.



I agree completely, anything I've written with the intention of a series I've adapted to fit one volume. Even in epic fantasy, it's definitely manageable: _Perdido Street Station_ demonstrates this with ease.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Dec 5, 2008)

Long, long series make me a sad panda. The fan-hype slaughters the fun. Short books with an ongoing plot make me feel completely disconnected during the down-time in which I don't have the next installment, and I enjoy longer books anyway.

Is anyone else going to be in a class for writing in the near future? ((The people in school, anyway.)) I've finally been scheduled into one for January; needless to say, I'm excited.


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## Tyrael (Dec 5, 2008)

I'm a psychology student, they wouldn't let me into a writing module if I begged them.


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## Serp (Dec 5, 2008)

Arg I think I've realised why I can seem to get down and write some more, Fantasy, horror with a hit of surreality is my specialty, I think I need to do something with a little less magic, maybe a sci-fi with mutants or an epic with samurais and shit. I just need something to take the magic edge of things.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 5, 2008)

My thought of a series was that I might not be able to stuff all my ideas into one book.


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## Tiger (Dec 5, 2008)

Can someone link me to a good, and free, hosting site that I can take stuff from Word and upload them?

I'm tired of c/ping to threads like this every time.


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## Serp (Dec 5, 2008)

fictionpress.com is a good place.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 5, 2008)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Long, long series make me a sad panda. The fan-hype slaughters the fun. Short books with an ongoing plot make me feel completely disconnected during the down-time in which I don't have the next installment, and I enjoy longer books anyway.
> 
> Is anyone else going to be in a class for writing in the near future? ((The people in school, anyway.)) I've finally been scheduled into one for January; needless to say, I'm excited.



I am taking one and I am very excited about it too. I can't wait. 



Law said:


> Can someone link me to a good, and free, hosting site that I can take stuff from Word and upload them?
> 
> I'm tired of c/ping to threads like this every time.



There was a site called ripway, but I think if you don't log in once a month it boots you out.


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## Tiger (Dec 5, 2008)

Serp said:


> fictionpress.com is a good place.



You're awesome.
I apparently had registered at that site 3 years ago. They kept my username and password.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 5, 2008)

Law said:


> You're awesome.
> I apparently had registered at that site 3 years ago. They kept my username and password.



They still have my account that I haven't used since 2000


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## Psallo a Cappella (Dec 5, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I'm a psychology student, they wouldn't let me into a writing module if I begged them.


 
Ouch. 
That's why I'll be majoring in Journalism, (with focuses on Editorial and International relations.)

I fairly enjoy fictionpress; I know I have two accounts after forgetting the first one . . . and I really haven't used it. =P


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## Tyrael (Dec 5, 2008)

I keep getting emails from my long abandoned fictionpress account. I really should unsubscribe from the thread and post a few more shorts on it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 5, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I keep getting emails from my long abandoned fictionpress account. I really should unsubscribe from the thread and post a few more shorts on it.



I posted pretty often in the Review for a review thread...it was nice for a while but I don't want to read someone 30,000 word story and give them a review when all I want read is three pages.


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## Tiger (Dec 7, 2008)

Are bad reviews common in that place?
Someone said most of the stuff there is mindless drivel...makes me wonder.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 7, 2008)

Law said:


> Are bad reviews common in that place?
> Someone said most of the stuff there is mindless drivel...makes me wonder.



It depends, you can look at my reviews and they are generally pretty well written. But you get trolls. Here: 



> I really like this. Normally, the vampire scene isn't my thing. I'm not into the supernatural/fantasy stories. But this... this has my attention 100% and I couldn't tell you why. Maybe it's because you're so skilled at writing, which seems to be something of rarity; the story flows well, you use a varitey of vocabulary, it's witty. But, you know, it's not always what the story is about... sometimes, it's just how you tell it. And that's what you've captured, which is a HARD thing to do. Keep it up.





> lmaOO! xDD
> loved it!!
> haha is this a one-shot!!
> haha should be a short-story =P





> That chapter was a disappointment. After the first two, I expected something better...
> Let's start with dialogue:
> ?and whatever we?re walking on isn?t dirt because my powers won?t work.?
> Not real.
> ...





> holy freak!
> I feel so proud to have the honour of first review!! woohoo
> 
> your story really gives the perspective of what i think modern vamps would have to go through to stay...uh...alive(?)
> ...



Those are some of mine.


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## Einstein (Dec 7, 2008)

> That chapter was a disappointment. After the first two, I expected something better...
> Let's start with dialogue:
> ?and whatever we?re walking on isn?t dirt because my powers won?t work.?
> *Not real.*
> ...



Uh.. I'm going to guess that this guy is a realist.


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## Tyrael (Dec 7, 2008)

Didn't you know? Realism is a much prized trait in fantasy nowadays.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Dec 7, 2008)

Truthfully, I've received better reviews on my fanfiction. Most people cruising around on fictionpress [ I included ] generally don't have time to sit down, read four long chapters, and give a comprehensive review on it. Since I detest short one-liners, giving them and receiving them, I don't review, hardly read. People usually won't stop and review unless something really interests them, something really bothers them. On the other hand, there are the younger kids that skim through and just love abusing punctuation and CAPS lock keys.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 7, 2008)

I'm too paranoid to up things to fictionpress. That is why I occasionally pass stuff around on MSN(in pieces) to certain LD members while casually patting certain legal documents.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 7, 2008)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Truthfully, I've received better reviews on my fanfiction. Most people cruising around on fictionpress [ I included ] generally don't have time to sit down, read four long chapters, and give a comprehensive review on it. Since I detest short one-liners, giving them and receiving them, I don't review, hardly read. People usually won't stop and review unless something really interests them, something really bothers them. On the other hand, there are the younger kids that skim through and just love abusing punctuation and CAPS lock keys.



When I review, I do tend to write paragraphs, and the review clubs ALL require certain things in your reviews too. I could really care less if the review is all punctuated and capitalized...



Lord Yu said:


> I'm too paranoid to up things to fictionpress. That is why I occasionally pass stuff around on MSN(in pieces) to certain LD members while casually patting certain legal documents.



Its actually a good way to get your stuff stolen, I am not putting up anymore of my main full stories on it I don't think.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Dec 7, 2008)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I could really care less if the review is all punctuated and capitalized...





 I meant, like, people *"WHO D00 THIS LYKE OH EM GEE!!11..GJSDF.~!! OMG TAT WAS S00 AMAYZINGG PLZ RIGHT MOAR!!1...!ONEONE"*

[shudder]. I /hate/ reviews like that.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 7, 2008)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> [/font]
> 
> 
> I meant, like, people *"WHO D00 THIS LYKE OH EM GEE!!11..GJSDF.~!! OMG TAT WAS S00 AMAYZINGG PLZ RIGHT MOAR!!1...!ONEONE"*
> ...



I'm usually just happy people read my stuff. I kind of take it as they were so excited, they lost the ability to type.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 7, 2008)

I tend to think unfavorably towards the intelligence of that person.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 7, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> I tend to think unfavorably towards the intelligence of that person.



I'm not a fan of chat speak, and I don't get too many reviews written in it or many reviews as it is. But I guess I just have to be happy that someone read what I wrote, and took the time to write something back...even if it is slightly unintelligible.


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## Tyrael (Dec 7, 2008)

If you think you can look down upon people that have taken the time to read your piece and leave thoughts about it then you really need to get straight what position a writer is. All of my reviews-I'll post them if people want-have been pretty good. If they've read your stuff their input is valuable, irregardless of how may look to construe their intelligence. People ought to just be thankful they get reviews.

When I say this, I don't mean that you should take all reviews as the word of god, or that you should take notice of ones that haven't read the piece.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 7, 2008)

It's how my neurotic narcissistic mind works. It makes me feel doubtful that they actually read it all.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Dec 7, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> It's how my neurotic narcissistic mind works. It makes me feel doubtful that they actually read it all.


 
I agree.

--

And I hardly see it as "looking down" on someone. I would rather no one read it than twenty reviews of too many exclamation points and an OMG I LUV IT. I wonder if they really liked it, or if they saw a few big words and pretty phrases, and then hastily clicked "review". It isn't impossible; in fact, with younger browsers, it's probable.

It's not merely chatspeak that is irritating. If you liked it, just say "I liked it." "I loved it!" When is there any reason to hold down the button and set CAPS lock on cruise control? 

The thing is, I'm not even looking for people to say they loved it. I'd rather have a legitimate reason for SOMEONE TO DO THISS!!11ONEN; since everyone can improve, and that's what I'm aiming for, what is typed above is incredibly unhelpful. I've never been one to sulk about lack of reviews, anyway.

Pardon my opinion, I just find it annoying. Six exclamation points, ten exclamation points . . . I get the idea.


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## Tyrael (Dec 7, 2008)

Well, nothing wrong with finding spamming annoying-as I said, if they haven't read your piece and evidently so then aren't making any contribution. It's just that only one of CTK's reviews really had nothing of interest to say, and they seemed to be getting likened to mindless spams. I would be delighted to have any of those comments 'cause it sounds like they read the piece. Other than there are few that may seem poorly articulated, yet offer something nonetheless.


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## Masked Hoodlum (Dec 7, 2008)

Thankfully my friends read through every chapter and give me excellent insight on what I can improve on in fact even my english teacher is helping 
As for progress in my book, let's just I must ...I MUST MAKE IT PAST THE 200 PAGES MARK!!! SO CLOSE DARN IT!!!


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## Lord Yu (Dec 12, 2008)

I have been stalled along with this thread. I need something to inspire my creative juices. Probably won't come till Christmas.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 14, 2008)

While talking with Tyrael I decided that I should actually go on and combine the first two stories of the series, it might be a little bit of a long thing to write...but I think in the end if might be worth it. 

The thing is I was wondering how I could bridge the two together, the first story takes place and ends a matter of weeks before the second. But the two stories build upon each other and build up to the same event. 

So instead of linking them end on end. I will use the plot from the first story somehow, as a launch pad and have the two overlap in the middle. So what would have been the second story will start in the center of what would have been the first. 

I think that with that I wouldn't have to break momentum and the like. Also it would allow me to use more of the cast better in this first story because some of them didn't really do much until the second story anyway.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 14, 2008)

My progress has been ground to a halt.


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## Batman (Dec 16, 2008)

So I got my first rejection letter.  (by -email no less)



> Thanks for sending along the opening pages of Palana's Kiss.  Truth be told, though,  I'm afraid they didn't draw me in as much as I had hoped.  I'm pressed for time these days and, what with my reservations about the project, I suspect I wouldn't be the best fit. Thanks so much for contacting me, though, and for giving me this  opportunity. It's much appreciated, and I'm sorry to be passing. I wish you the very best of luck in your search for representation.



And while not unexpected, it's still a slight kick to the balls. :xzaru Though it's strange because I've pretty much been in the batcave for the past 4 months, trying to polish, clean up, speed up, and generally improve this book. And in a few sentences, I'm pulled back into the stink town that is the real world.

Well I'm going to keep editing while I wait for more to follow and see if I can turn that rejection into an acceptance. But I might come out of the cave for a while. There is a lot of fun stuff that I want to catch up on.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 16, 2008)

The downside of my ambitious project is that it'll be years of traveling before I'm close to comfortable with my book.


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## Tyrael (Dec 17, 2008)

I think you should be proud Bats at how far along you are-we know how excellent a writer you are so it's only a matter of time before a letter comes back in the affirmative. Still, I have heard some pretty horrifying things about the stage you are at.


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## neko-sennin (Dec 17, 2008)

Batman said:


> So I got my first rejection letter.  (by -email no less)
> 
> Well I'm going to keep editing while I wait for more to follow and see if I can turn that rejection into an acceptance. But I might come out of the cave for a while. There is a lot of fun stuff that I want to catch up on.



That might just be the best medicine right now. Often it pays to put some time and distance between yourself and your working draft. Go enjoy yourself (I often fit in an RPG, anime marathon, or just go out and do stuff) for a while, then come back and take a fresh look at your manuscript. Who knows, potential plotholes, glitches, or solutions to problems you didn't even know you had with a story might pop into your head if your turn your mind to something else for a while.

BTW, anyone know if Fictionpress is ever going to come back online? I'm four chapters behind and counting...


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## Tyrael (Dec 17, 2008)

I've been getting emails by the bucketload from FP for the past few days. I keep meaning to unsubscribe to the damn thread-the upshot is, it seems be online. I'll go see if I can log on.

Edit-I'm online at the moment, seems fine.


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## neko-sennin (Dec 17, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> I've been getting emails by the bucketload from FP for the past few days. I keep meaning to unsubscribe to the damn thread-the upshot is, it seems be online. I'll go see if I can log on.
> 
> Edit-I'm online at the moment, seems fine.



I've been getting this shit



> 404 Not Found
> The resource requested could not be found on this server! Powered By LiteSpeed Web Server
> Lite Speed Technologies is not responsible for administration and contents of this web site!



for nearly a week.

EDITED TO SAY: Okay, go figure. I look it up thru Google in a different tab, and _now_ it wants to load. Looks like they rearranged the place in my absence, and I'm guessing _that_ had something to do with it...


----------



## Tyrael (Dec 17, 2008)

Ouch dude-it does seem that they've got a shinier interface though now so I'd guess you're right. My account hasn't been used in so long, it should be perforated by cobwebs.


----------



## Pan-on (Dec 17, 2008)

Batman said:


> So I got my first rejection letter.  (by -email no less)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



im envious that you actually finished somethign you thought was worth sending, thats something I really need to work on.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 17, 2008)

And non selfish dick response to batman: You'll be OK just back to the drawing bored pick and clean research here and there, some deep meditation then bam. You''ll be on the way to the bestsellers list man. You're a powerful writer.


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## Batman (Dec 17, 2008)

I appreciate the words folks. I ended up actually playing a video game I bought a few years back. Maybe I'll even finish it.


I'm also reading The Magician. How many Tolkien style books am I going to have to wade through before something will stand out.

And Yu, your sig reminds me of a bad date I had.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 20, 2008)

Still playing the novel writing game. I'm getting closer to 100 pages.


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## .:Jason:. (Dec 21, 2008)

I'm really starting to lose hope on my novel.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 21, 2008)

I'm beginning to worry about convolution and stylistic consistency.


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## Tyrael (Dec 21, 2008)

Pah-I've long ago given up hop that I can claw anything remotely worthy from what minuscule talent I possess and know it's a false dream. I'll never be worth shit as a writer, unfortunately.


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## Batman (Dec 21, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Pah-I've long ago given up hop that I can claw anything remotely worthy from what minuscule talent I possess and know it's a false dream. I'll never be worth shit as a writer, unfortunately.



Not true. We can fight if you don't agree with me.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 21, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> Pah-I've long ago given up hop that I can claw anything remotely worthy from what minuscule talent I possess and know it's a false dream. I'll never be worth shit as a writer, unfortunately.



If I can come up from watered down animu plots and vidya gaem nonsense you can do anything. I'm fighting arrogance hard to say this but gosh darn it all you need to do is sit down and re-evaluate your techniques. Hit yourself in the head if you have to. Isolate yourself and get in touch with your inner darkness. Blah blah, keep at it.


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## Barinax (Dec 21, 2008)

I want to write something. I don't know why, it's just some sort of sudden...

Well, yeah.


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## Batman (Dec 21, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Isolate yourself and get in touch with your inner darkness.



LOL that's what you think Every1 should do.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 21, 2008)

I confess I do. Inside each of us their are brilliant ideas hidden within the dark forest of our consciousness. They wouldn't be so hard to find if they were not hidden.


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## Tyrael (Dec 21, 2008)

Batman said:


> Not true. We can fight if you don't agree with me.



Bring it one.





Lord Yu said:


> If I can come up from watered down animu plots and vidya gaem nonsense you can do anything. I'm fighting arrogance hard to say this but gosh darn it all you need to do is sit down and re-evaluate your techniques. Hit yourself in the head if you have to. Isolate yourself and get in touch with your inner darkness. Blah blah, keep at it.





*Is chastised*

After I finish this book I am working on I very much do mean to sit down and change how I approach writing. I found out a couple of days ago that my current project, 18k words in, doesn't have a plot. Yeah, woops.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 21, 2008)

Plotless can work. IF you can convince enough people that there is one or that it's completely open to interpretation.


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## Tyrael (Dec 21, 2008)

Yeah-but I don't feel right with that since it's basically shallow intellectual wankery in that case.

That said the next section looks to be completely crazy, so should be good fun.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 21, 2008)

Shallow it may be but it could still get a place in the circles if you can fool enough people.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Dec 21, 2008)

I need to stop being bashful about showing others what I can do, no matter what I think of it. I'm generally an extrovert, but I always put my tail between my legs when it comes to my being in the spotlight. 

That said, I need to push myself when it comes to my class next semester.


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## Tyrael (Dec 21, 2008)

Lord Yu said:


> Shallow it may be but it could still get a place in the circles if you can fool enough people.



This is true, but I'm a terrible inverted-snob and such an achievement would not sit well. I guess it would be an achievement regardless.

And hooray for temporary thread revival. Those conv. thread upstarts looked to surpass us there.



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> I need to stop being bashful about showing others what I can do, no matter what I think of it. I'm generally an extrovert, but I always put my tail between my legs when it comes to my being in the spotlight.
> 
> That said, I need to push myself when it comes to my class next semester.



As an introvert I can say that extroverts I have encountered tend to be more bashful about showing people their work, so it's not as odd a situation as you may think. If I only showed people stuff I am proud of, no one would know I write at all so no need to worry about it.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Dec 21, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> As an introvert I can say that extroverts I have encountered tend to be more bashful about showing people their work, so it's not as odd a situation as you may think. If I only showed people stuff I am proud of, no one would know I write at all so no need to worry about it.


 
That is true, it is not uncommon. 

Nobody knew I wrote -not even my closest friends- for the longest time because if anyone ever caught a glimpse of something, I just smiled wide and shuffled the papers, moving on with a giggle, like it was an assignment or something. Funny, considering most of what I write is hardly as light and flighty. 

The only glimpse any teachers of mine had, was the quality of technical essays; better structure and varied vocabulary than most of the others. Any knowledge of creative and fictional writing did not reach them. Not until this year, in AP World Literature, when we had a few writing assignments that forced me to divulge more of my creative side.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 21, 2008)

Alot of people IRL know I'm writing but I don't show anyone anything.


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## Tyrael (Dec 21, 2008)

The problem I have is that the people I give my work to tend not to have enough time to read it.


----------



## Batman (Dec 21, 2008)

Lord Yu said:
			
		

> Alot of people IRL know I'm writing but I don't show anyone anything.


I was like this at first. I wanted to make sure it wasn't crap. Then when I started showing it to them, nobody gave a rat's ass.  lol



			
				Tyrael said:
			
		

> Alot of people IRL know I'm writing but I don't show anyone anything.


Same!! I've had stuff handed back to me with notes on the first page, saying "I couldn't get into it. It's not my type of story. Why don't you let so and so read it." Even though so and so recommended them to me since they were too busy. *sigh*

And as far as plotless writing goes, I find it tough to work with. I've given it a shot a few times, and the stuff sounds good but the big picture always feels weak to me. But then again, I hate to not know where I'm going.

If you can do it, though that's pretty damn impressive. But you might be the 'loose to detailed outline' type like me.


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Dec 21, 2008)

> And as far as plotless writing goes, I find it tough to work with. I've given it a shot a few times, and the stuff sounds good but the big picture always feels weak to me. But then again, I hate to not know where I'm going.
> 
> If you can do it, though that's pretty damn impressive. But you might be the 'loose to detailed outline' type like me.


 
It is tough to work with, I think. I also agree that the "big picture" is the most difficult part to convey; if it is too solid an idea, it isn't plot-less, and too vague, and it won't catch enough attention or make people think. I find it frustrating because it forces me to use obvious symbolism to try to make people think; or, the entire style is too forced, trying to squeeze semblance and meaning out of nothing.


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 21, 2008)

I feel weird now. I have finally been able to confirm that their is a definite consistency issue in regards to my story's dialogue. It's likely due to me almost literally using three different writing styles. But I personally believe that I have a consistent dialogue style, except for one part of the story. Now I have to fix a whole mess of conversations without an idea how. Though I have all the problem scenes in mind.


----------



## Batman (Dec 22, 2008)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> It is tough to work with, I think. I also agree that the "big picture" is the most difficult part to convey; if it is too solid an idea, it isn't plot-less, and too vague, and it won't catch enough attention or make people think. I find it frustrating because it forces me to use obvious symbolism to try to make people think; or, the entire style is too forced, trying to squeeze semblance and meaning out of nothing.


Is it your preferred method of working? I can imagine it would be tough trying to convey meaning in something whose meaning you yourself are not yet aware of. 

I know that King goes nuts when he writes, and often times you can tell the random nature of it. Sometimes that ads  a bit to the realistic aspect of it, but other times it can feel hectic.



Lord Yu said:


> I feel weird now. I have finally been able to confirm that their is a definite consistency issue in regards to my story's dialogue. It's likely due to me almost literally using three different writing styles. But I personally believe that I have a consistent dialogue style, except for one part of the story. Now I have to fix a whole mess of conversations without an idea how. Though I have all the problem scenes in mind.



Well at least you know what you have to do. It's like AA, the first step is realizing you have a problem.   But who knows, maybe if the common thread is common enough, the different writing styles will be a treat.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Dec 23, 2008)

I actually finally made an update to Freedom from the Sword 

@ Writer's Block


----------



## Masked Hoodlum (Dec 29, 2008)

so thanks to my uncle who has connections with the publishing industry I am "suppose" to have an interview with one of the representatives soon but its already been 4 weeks D: so i had my uncle contact the person and i gave my uncle a sample of my book......

I sure am wishing for the best........


----------



## Catterix (Dec 29, 2008)

Good luck with it. A 4 week gap means nothing.

I wish I had those sorts of connections; you're well lucky!


----------



## Lord Yu (Dec 30, 2008)

Still suffering what might be my first case of writer's block. I still have ideas but my dialogue skill.


----------



## Trunkten (Dec 30, 2008)

Names are hard. _Really_ hard. I toyed with the idea of doing away with them, but I'll never make it work. I've got an idea for the first time ever (simplistic as it is), and I want to run with it before I lose focus, but I just can't come up with decent names for my two main characters...

This is why I don't write.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 30, 2008)

With my dialogue patterns I could probably get through without names. But I'm good at names. A trick would be learning how names work. You can factor in geographic, character and area values or you could simply play with phonics. Names are one of the easier points for me.


----------



## Chee (Dec 30, 2008)

Trunkten said:


> Names are hard. _Really_ hard. I toyed with the idea of doing away with them, but I'll never make it work. I've got an idea for the first time ever (simplistic as it is), and I want to run with it before I lose focus, but I just can't come up with decent names for my two main characters...
> 
> This is why I don't write.



Take them from people you know.


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## Trunkten (Dec 30, 2008)

Chee said:


> Take them from people you know.



I've tried that before, but the characters just become the people they are named after, and I hate doing that. I'd rather they were my own creations, I can't think of them without thinking automatically of their real-life namesakes and it throws me...


----------



## Chee (Dec 30, 2008)

Trunkten said:


> I've tried that before, but the characters just become the people they are named after, and I hate doing that. I'd rather they were my own creations, I can't think of them without thinking automatically of their real-life namesakes and it throws me...



Google search some names and choose the one you like the most.

Anyways, I just go with any name that pops in my head. It's between Tom and Ford lately. Names are random in real life so its random in my story.


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## Tyrael (Dec 30, 2008)

My char's names tend to be either really bizarre or really mundane. Normally both in the same story. Naming chars is hard.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 30, 2008)

I've tried to actually do get different and out there names, I kind of gave up. I really don't look too hard into the naming anymore for the most part. I think I have some pretty good ones in the cast though.


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## Trunkten (Dec 30, 2008)

Yeah, at the moment I've gone for Alex as my main character, just seemed to fit alright. Not perfect, but maybe I'll change it later. 

Already managed to lose track of where I'm going though, and I'm only two pages in. I'm fine when I'm setting a scene, but when I actually try to advance the story, everything goes wrong.


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## Tyrael (Dec 30, 2008)

All the cool kids don't advance the story.

Hell, I've got 19.5k words on my current project and it's yet to have a plot-although this is a pretty damn bad thing.

In fact, I think it would be funny to write something where all plot development happened "off-screen" and the entire book is people discussing how exciting it was.


----------



## Trunkten (Dec 30, 2008)

Heh, well I'm only writing as a creative outlet for myself, so I'm just going to run with it. If it turns out okay, fantastic, if not, nothing lost. Only 1,300 words for me so far, and it's already more than I've ever written, which is probably why I'm finding it so hard to keep things in some sort of order.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 30, 2008)

Tyrael said:


> All the cool kids don't advance the story.
> 
> Hell, I've got 19.5k words on my current project and it's yet to have a plot-although this is a pretty damn bad thing.
> 
> In fact, I think it would be funny to write something where all plot development happened "off-screen" and the entire book is people discussing how exciting it was.



I think that would be a fun story to take up actually. I don't have the drive to try it.


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## Tyrael (Dec 30, 2008)

Trunkten said:


> Heh, well I'm only writing as a creative outlet for myself, so I'm just going to run with it. If it turns out okay, fantastic, if not, nothing lost. Only 1,300 words for me so far, and it's already more than I've ever written, which is probably why I'm finding it so hard to keep things in some sort of order.



It's a ridiculously hard thing to do, structuring without planning. I reckon for most people who are unsure of a beginning rolling with it is the best plan-whether it's something to fill your spare time or a bestselling book in the works.


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## Trunkten (Dec 30, 2008)

I've got the outline of a story, but I keeping changing ideas around, and it really is the bare bones, aside from the major plot points I've no idea what I'm writing about. Still I prefer it that way, I like to just let it run and see where it goes.


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## Lord Yu (Dec 30, 2008)

I come up with themes and scenes then build toward those scenes even though I know I'll probably never use those scenes.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Dec 30, 2008)

Masked Hoodlum said:


> so thanks to my uncle who has connections with the publishing industry I am "suppose" to have an interview with one of the representatives soon but its already been 4 weeks D: so i had my uncle contact the person and i gave my uncle a sample of my book......
> 
> I sure am wishing for the best........


 
Good luck.  Connections can only be a help for exposure.

I loathe names. I tend to change them halfway through because I'm so sick of the name I want to do away with it.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 1, 2009)

I think I've reached the trap of overindulgence. I got so caught up in flowery prose and extreme emotions I believe I lost touch with reality. Realism is an important aspect to me. When I go too far into the surreal circlejerking I lose touch of character which is my favorite aspect. My journey now is to find balance.


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## Yacoob (Jan 4, 2009)

I am writing a biography.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 4, 2009)

I'm writing something a little outside of my field of expertise, actually two somethings. But one of them is really turning out to be hard. All I think I can get right are the characters, the settings and the like are a bit hard on me...


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 5, 2009)

tentacle rape

^Posted this the other day^


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## Lord Yu (Jan 6, 2009)

I do believe my pacing is fine.


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## Fleecy (Jan 6, 2009)

Wow, how old are you guys? And you're already writing books! That's amazing dedication!

Where can I read your works? I'm really interested to know!


----------



## Serp (Jan 6, 2009)

Haven't been here in a while, watched every episode of Dexter so that I could effectively write about a serial killer


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## Lord Yu (Jan 6, 2009)

I've barely done anything. I'm still struggling with the fear of backlash over my presentation of a Japan-like society that basically emulates the country's World War II era imperialism and genocidal tendencies. On a simpler note I'm still figuring out balance between dialogue and narration. On one section I have a stylistically simplistic narrative with snappy and strong dialogue. On another I have passionate and perhaps sometimes poetic narrative but stiff and sometimes even inconsistent dialogue that especially falls flat when I try to use accent. I know I'm fairly good with accent. It might be that I got too far in character, it might be a case of the ol' melancholia. I know that if I can balance the two it would be legendary.


----------



## neko-sennin (Jan 6, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> pain,sasori, and kakuzu >the naruverse
> 
> ^Posted this the other day^



I'll have to check it out later.

Welcome to the Lit Dept, Fleecy!



Fleecy said:


> Wow, how old are you guys? And you're already writing books! That's amazing dedication!



I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm about 31, and have been writing stuff off and on since I was in middle school. (Though I don't think I came up with much of anything at all worth _reading_ until after I was in college.)



Fleecy said:


> Where can I read your works? I'm really interested to know!



In my case, if you click on the spoiler tag in my sig, or the "Tradewinds 07: Away From Home" thread, you'll find links to all the stuff I've posted here.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 6, 2009)

neko-sennin pops up at the strangest times.

I wish I could sleep like a normal person.

Oh well back to work.


----------



## Batman (Jan 6, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> LamwaSzelong
> 
> ^Posted this the other day^



I thought that was a pretty good read, if a bit daunting as most things are when they're broken down to a formula like that. But it was informative none the less.



Lord Yu said:


> I've barely done anything. I'm still struggling with the fear of backlash over my presentation of a Japan-like society that basically emulates the country's World War II era imperialism and genocidal tendencies. On a simpler note I'm still figuring out balance between dialogue and narration. On one section I have a stylistically simplistic narrative with snappy and strong dialogue. On another I have passionate and perhaps sometimes poetic narrative but stiff and sometimes even inconsistent dialogue that especially falls flat when I try to use accent. I know I'm fairly good with accent. It might be that I got too far in character, it might be a case of the ol' melancholia. I know that if I can balance the two it would be legendary.



I cannot wait to read Yu's stuff. I've only seen a glimpse of it before I think you took it down, but one of these days .  . .



Serp said:


> Haven't been here in a while, watched every episode of Dexter so that I could effectively write about a serial killer


That's a good show, though I've only watched about half of the first season. One of these days I want to sit down and watch the rest of it like you just did.



Fleecy said:


> Wow, how old are you guys? And you're already writing books! That's amazing dedication!
> 
> Where can I read your works? I'm really interested to know!


I'm 25, and I have a tendency to disappear whenever I'm working on my stuff. I'm actually getting people to read it right now for the dreaded feedback, but I doubt you'd want to read the entire thing. If you want to read chapter 1, let me know. 

 . . . and if by some strange alignment of the planets you do want to read the whole thing, let me know. lol


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 6, 2009)

Batman said:


> I thought that was a pretty good read, if a bit daunting as most things are when they're broken down to a formula like that. But it was informative none the less.



Thanks, I think its more of a guide, it more than anything is to teach _how we read into certain things._


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## Batman (Jan 6, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Thanks, I think its more of a guide, it more than anything is to teach _how we read into certain things._



It reminds me of a books I read called Make a Scene, except a lot more detailed about this certain aspect.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 6, 2009)

Batman said:


> It reminds me of a books I read called Make a Scene, except a lot more detailed about this certain aspect.



I basically typed out half the chapter lol. I like these books mostly because they give me an idea of a thinking process I can go through to come upon a way things should work. Most of the time I look at them for reference or for the writing exercises in them.

One of them said to go out and sit in a public place and just listen to people talk, write down how they talk and what they say and what it means. And then pick two quotes and write a story around them...very helpful.


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Jan 6, 2009)

> Haven't been here in a while, watched every episode of Dexter so that I could effectively write about a serial killer


 


In general news: Back into the saddle. Creative Writing and AP World Lit [AP calls for much more intensive analysis and writing, so ^____^] are in my education arsenal now, and hopefully this gives me a little push to my dust-ridden fanfiction and novel outline that I've let alone as well. And hopefully, it helps me with quick character development; I'm terrible at short-story character development. I can paint a picture, a photo-shot of the moment, and capture emotion in a moment, but writing short stories is difficult for me.

Perhaps I'll focus more on poetry. >>'' It's the only thing that warranted me exposure, anyway.



> Wow, how old are you guys? And you're already writing books! That's amazing dedication!
> 
> Where can I read your works? I'm really interested to know!


 
All I have at the moment is the outline of a hopeful psychological modern-thriller; I tend to scratch things often, and my last novel idea, I did just that. Therefore, the only things I have floating around on the internet are fanfiction and poetry. The fanfiction is older and rambling [I find little of it well-written anymore; I used it as a means to develop style rather than a harrowing plot], and the poetry, as I said, is well-liked [or it must be, since it was chosen to be published] and I find it easier on the whole.

I'm seventeen, and have been writing since about ten or eleven. I used to write down the strange things I would observe people doing, keeping it in notebooks. In hotels, I used to crouch by vending machines and write down what people said or ate . . . I was a creeper.


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## Tyrael (Jan 6, 2009)

At the start (well, three months in) of 2006 was when I started writing, I guess I should feel proud that I've finished a novel since then but I'm damn impatient and unrealistic.

I wish I could do a creative writing module, but I think the only one I get to choose has to be within the confines of psychology or sociology.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 6, 2009)

My writing models follow the lines of amusement and believability. My first question for a new idea: Is it awesome? Second: How can I make it mine?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 12, 2009)

I'm going back and doing a little short story thing, something that won't amount to being over twenty pages more than likely. It will follow in the foot steps of _Students of the Universe_. I hope it turns out at least that good.


----------



## Boromir (Jan 12, 2009)

^ Good idea. I always find short stories real fun and interesting to write, but it somehow leaves me with a sense of... lacking accomplishment. Like i could do so much more.


----------



## Sanity Check (Jan 12, 2009)

All of my stories up to this point have been experiments.

But, one day, I would like to write something I could be proud of.  As opposed to "oh I wrote this story, but I'm not satisfied with it."  Or, "I think I can do better."


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## Lord Yu (Jan 13, 2009)

I'm trying to bring a purply piece into reality.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Jan 13, 2009)

Writing a dialogue exercise:  Prompt #2, Have both characters speaking in riddles and / or lies, but do not explain it through the narrative. Instead, imply the dishonesty through dialogue. Those characters may not outright accuse one of lying.

Reminds me of interrogation, which I think I'm using.


----------



## .:Jason:. (Jan 13, 2009)

I've got some vague hint of a plot going. I know it starts with a nightmare and ends with a dream, thugh everything else in between I'm not that sure of.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 14, 2009)

I feel like shit. I just can't get this part to work. The dialogue is ranging from flat to cheesy. I just can't feel it.


----------



## Taurus Versant (Jan 14, 2009)

I've been having a lot of dead writing days lately. That's why I've been rping a lot, trying to reignite the creative fire by on the fly writing.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 14, 2009)

Taurus Versant said:


> I've been having a lot of dead writing days lately. That's why I've been rping a lot, trying to reignite the creative fire by on the fly writing.



Same here, I start creative writing soon, what shall I do?


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## Taurus Versant (Jan 14, 2009)

It's deadlines like that where you need to force yourself before hand. Try and write a few pages of whatever comes to mind for a few days, and whenever you're thinking without distraction, try coming up with plots, characters, or events you'd like to portray, which helps with motivation.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 14, 2009)

Taurus Versant said:


> It's deadlines like that where you need to force yourself before hand. Try and write a few pages of whatever comes to mind for a few days, and whenever you're thinking without distraction, try coming up with plots, characters, or events you'd like to portray, which helps with motivation.


 
I keep telling my friend I will write more and that she can read it and I just can't seem to think of much, I got one paragraph: 
 
 


> The rain brings with it a sense of renewal, a sense that even under the thick blanket of clouds where everything is tinted with gray, the city can still shimmer. Everything that the city lights touched twinkled like glitter through the steam like mist that rose from the streets. Each breath of cold, moist air is filled with that distinctive ‘after-rain’ smell. Despite her longstanding hatred of the cold, even she couldn’t resist being out in the weather.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 14, 2009)

I can never enforce deadlines on myself.


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## Tyrael (Jan 14, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I can never enforce deadlines on myself.



If ya wanna be an author, it's a good thing to learn to do though.

I might give up writing for a couple of months. Should I?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 14, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> If ya wanna be an author, it's a good thing to learn to do though.
> 
> I might give up writing for a couple of months. Should I?



I think that's kind of a personal choice man, its all up to you and dependent on how you feel.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jan 14, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> If ya wanna be an author, it's a good thing to learn to do though.
> 
> I might give up writing for a couple of months. Should I?



I guess I will after I find the balance.


----------



## Violent by Design (Jan 15, 2009)

I've been thinking about writing for a while. I have jotted down some experiences in real life so I can use just in case I start writing stories. Now I'm at the point where I am eager to try.

My question is where do I start? I'd like to just give it a shot despite the fact that I have horrible grammar. Is there any thread where people just post some of there stuff?


Also, does anyone have any good novels for me to absorb. I have only read biographies and advice/how-to-do books. I'd like to expand into other genres now that I have grown more comfortable with reading (and of course the fact that I am interested in writing stuff my self).


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## Lord Yu (Jan 15, 2009)

I got my start emulating Type Moon. Then I read A Song of Ice and Fire started to somewhat emulate George RR Martin. After that I read Perdido Street Station and tried to emulate China Mieville failed at it and went back to the drawing board. Then I lost my mind for a bit and found my own style. Which turns out can be either flowery prose or snappy dialogue heavy first person narratives.


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## Tyrael (Jan 15, 2009)

Violent By Design said:


> I've been thinking about writing for a while. I have jotted down some experiences in real life so I can use just in case I start writing stories. Now I'm at the point where I am eager to try.
> 
> My question is where do I start? I'd like to just give it a shot despite the fact that I have horrible grammar. Is there any thread where people just post some of there stuff?
> 
> ...



You can post your stuff in this thread, or make a new thread for it, whichever you feel will garner the most attention.

A piece of advice that is always touted is the one says that just read a lot of books. If you want to write fantasy read a lot of fantasy, if you want to write crime read a lot of crime, etc. Reading in a wide variety of genres is also good.

Other than that just write.



Lord Yu said:


> I got my start emulating Type Moon. Then I read A Song of Ice and Fire started to somewhat emulate George RR Martin. After that I read Perdido Street Station and tried to emulate China Mieville failed at it and went back to the drawing board. Then I lost my mind for a bit and found my own style. Which turns out can be either flowery prose or snappy dialogue heavy first person narratives.



I wish I could emulate Mieville.  

You just need to keep going though. It's far too early to say you've found your own distinctive style yet.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Jan 15, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I got my start emulating Type Moon. Then I read A Song of Ice and Fire started to somewhat emulate George RR Martin. After that I read Perdido Street Station and tried to emulate China Mieville failed at it and went back to the drawing board. Then I lost my mind for a bit and found my own style. Which turns out can be either flowery prose or snappy dialogue heavy first person narratives.


 
Every book that one reads, the emulation may be unconscious. I'll assume you read a fair bit; everything you have read will influence you if only a little, whether you attempt to emulate it [as you have done], or shyed away from a particular aspect, perhaps because it was not liked. Styles tend to change. And I think it is good that you have more than one way to execute your style of writing; it makes everything well-rounded.
----

BLAH. I work terrible with these odd prompts from class. 

*Spoiler*: __ 




The proponent must act. 

As he muses, a ginseng scent hovers, with a pungent tinge of remnant heat.

“And your only daughter’s death doesn’t even shake you?” Posed question acts as a spoken statement. 

An involuntary twitch flits across the accused man’s face. Is quiet on his side of the table, and then, “Destroying, dying, reliving . . . it’s all arbitrary, and all the same.”

“So people in your life commonly drop dead?”

Quiet intake of breath; he builds his emotional guard. The interrogator begins to pace, brows deeply angled.

“Look, there’s sufficient evidence to convict you of her murder—” 
“Suicide.” 

“Somehow, I don’t think so.”

Glaring at one another, minds buzzing; a violently disturbed apiary with no escape holes in the fence.

“What’s this alibi you’ve got?” 

“Work.”

“Elaborate."

“The nine-to-five grind.” An amused smile tugs at his lip-corners. “I’m no special man.”

“We happen to know that you weren’t present at clock-out.”

“How would _you_—”

“Your daughter is home later than you on most afternoons?”

“Before.” 

“Hmm. Just like mine. Leaves the front door unlocked, grabs a soda, immerses herself in her monstrous rock-pop, headphones at max.” Raising an eyebrow, the interrogator locks his eyes on the man behind the table. “Couldn’t hear a belligerent drunk drive a crane over the threshold.” 

“She didn’t enjoy music.”

“Preferred to listen to her own thoughts, huh?”

“You could say that. I always expected her to grow up that way, though.”

“Reserved sort of household?”

“Somewhat. We tend to contemplate often, and to ourselves.”

The questioner leans easily on the sturdy square table, cocking his head to one side, an air about him. As if discussing the weather, fiscal responsibility, or pesky wives. 

“She ever come home late?”

“Often.” 

“Despite being a girl that kept to herself, and didn’t know much else?”

Pause. “Occasionally. Home with me a lot.”

“Because of your wife’s recent death?”

“It was sudden, violent. She was the spitting image of her mother, from head to toe." Another pause. “We _need_ one another.”

“But you can’t have her now.”

“She’s here, though.” A lopsided grin graces his gaunt face, and his shoulders hit the hardback chair; a glazed, sated expression surfaces. “She’s always with me. Inside me. She always has been.”

Throat working furiously, the proponent curses in disgust. Glancing peripherally, he caught the curved corollas of the tattoo peeking from under the respondent’s long sleeve; a blooming network across the stringy tendons of the back of his hand. Colored pink. Odd. 




Dialogue makes me cry, for serious. I much prefer exposition. Although, I think I just hate being limited by parameters.


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## Tyrael (Jan 15, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Every book that one reads, the emulation may be unconscious. I'll assume you read a fair bit; everything you have read will influence you if only a little, whether you attempt to emulate it [as you have done], or shyed away from a particular aspect, perhaps because it was not liked. Styles tend to change. And I think it is good that you have more than one way to execute your style of writing; it makes everything well-rounded.
> ----
> 
> BLAH. I work terrible with these odd prompts from class.
> ...



As another who has a weakness for dialogue (ironic, considering when I started it was the only thing I could do) I have to say you've done a pretty good job. It gets the reader thinking and you convey everything subtly. The present tense especially adds to the tension.

Although there is the odd moment that seems out of place-mainly on the side of the interrogator. At times he seems slightly inconsistent and when he asks for the man's alibi it kind of feels like he is reading from a script. It's pretty good though-the end really makes me wonder.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Jan 15, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> As another who has a weakness for dialogue (ironic, considering when I started it was the only thing I could do) I have to say you've done a pretty good job. It gets the reader thinking and you convey everything subtly. The present tense especially adds to the tension.
> 
> Although there is the odd moment that seems out of place-mainly on the side of the interrogator. At times he seems slightly inconsistent and when he asks for the man's alibi it kind of feels like he is reading from a script. It's pretty good though-the end really makes me wonder.


 
I suppose the inconsistency is because one of the parts of the prompt is to keep it vague; the reader isn't supposed to automatically know which one is lying, or at what time. You aren't sure if the interrogater knows what he's talking about, or if he's throwing out lines to strike gold. Conversely, it's difficult to tell how much the respondent is telling of the truth. I probably didn't execute this the best, but it's just difficult to keep it all so vague and yet keep it together, if only loosely.


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## Tyrael (Jan 18, 2009)

I need somebody to read what I have written so far in my novel and tell me, no holding back, if it is crap. Seriously, I need an opinion that has no punches pulled.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 18, 2009)

Will read when I'm no longer scared of my own shadow. I should be working on my essay.


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## Tyrael (Jan 18, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> Will read when I'm no longer scared of my own shadow. I should be working on my essay.



This a serious problem for you atm? I have periods where I really get scared for no real reason, but they do pass. 

Anyway, thanks alot, it's a pretty big ask-so far it is 20kish words.


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## Juanita Tequila (Jan 21, 2009)

Anyone here write for a living?! 

I'm really considering a career in writing and I just wanna hear how some of ya'll got started and such. D:


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 21, 2009)

Stupid Creative writing is making me write a poem on trees


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## Catterix (Jan 22, 2009)

I'm really happy!

I've just returned to a book I wrote when I was 13, and it's going brilliant. I'm completely starting from scratch just remembering the original story and characters, but now with a fresh slate. This is some of the best stuff I've written, I absolutely love it.

If, by about February, I have 10 or so chapters, I'm gonna send it off to an agent to see if it's worth publishing


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## Psallo a Cappella (Jan 22, 2009)

Writing about a neighbor that comes to borrow an item you would never lend them. Teacher said to fictionalize it, so of course, I'm going to implicate my Little-House-on-the-Prairie Nightmares that are my neighbors.


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## Chee (Jan 22, 2009)

Catterix said:


> I'm really happy!
> 
> I've just returned to a book I wrote when I was 13, and it's going brilliant. I'm completely starting from scratch just remembering the original story and characters, but now with a fresh slate. This is some of the best stuff I've written, I absolutely love it.
> 
> If, by about February, I have 10 or so chapters, I'm gonna send it off to an agent to see if it's worth publishing



Cool, what is it about? :ho


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## kakoishii (Jan 22, 2009)

Catterix said:


> I'm really happy!
> 
> I've just returned to a book I wrote when I was 13, and it's going brilliant. I'm completely starting from scratch just remembering the original story and characters, but now with a fresh slate. This is some of the best stuff I've written, I absolutely love it.
> 
> If, by about February, I have 10 or so chapters, I'm gonna send it off to an agent to see if it's worth publishing



lucky, I remembered the other day a story I started when I was 12 or 13 that I dropped since I didn't know where it was going. I searched for it but I couldn't find it, I think I might have thrown it away but thinking back on it I don't normally throw away stuff like that. It's a real shame though, since I would've liked to revise it


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## Tyrael (Jan 25, 2009)

Anybody who wants to write should heed these words:

Link removed


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## Chee (Jan 25, 2009)

Good article. :ho

And its true to, I reread my story that I wrote during last summer and it sucked ass when I thought it was a goldmine when I was writing it.


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## Tyrael (Jan 25, 2009)

I've come to the conclusion that no stories are written good-they're merely written then edited good.

Did you write a completed story then?


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## Chee (Jan 25, 2009)

Not at all. It was all fragments that I never completely finished. I had around 5 chapters down, but they weren't in linear order.

Anyways, even in fragments it was shit. 



> I've come to the conclusion that no stories are written good-they're merely written then edited good.



I've heard that somewhere, didn't quite understand it at the time. But now I do.


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## Tyrael (Jan 25, 2009)

I used to do that all the time-would get impatient and skip ahead and write the interesting parts of the story. What I ended up with was, well...

Either way, I need to get my ass in gear with this thing I'm writing at the moment.


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## Chee (Jan 25, 2009)

In my opinion, all of the parts should be somewhat interesting. I mean, it doesn't have to be all gaga and explosions, but every single chapter should be character exposition/development or something that pushes the plot forward. 

Sad to say, this is easier said than done. I know what to do and I just need to do it, but focusing is the hard part.


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## Tyrael (Jan 25, 2009)

Of course you never want it to be boring and there should be some sort of exploration of theme or character or building up a setting in even the exposition. Still, the bits between A and B are never going to be as interesting by definition of what they are compared to A and B themselves.


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## Chee (Jan 25, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Stupid Creative writing is making me write a poem on trees



Trees = paper = writing poems on paper?


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## neko-sennin (Jan 26, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Anybody who wants to write should heed these words:



I'll second that. In Stephen King's _On Writing_, there's a part where he presents a story loosely titled "The Room" (according to King, it started as an editing exercise... and grew into "1408"-- quite possibly one of the creepiest short stories ever written  ), in which he first presented a rough draft of the opening scene, followed by a subsequent re-write. Showing his work, of course, including the margin notes from the original draft. To take this one step further, one can also open a copy of the final "1408" version (_Everything's Eventual_, _King Goes to the Movies_, possibly other short story collections...), with main character Mike Enslin's battle of wills with the hotel manager before he ever set foot in Room 1408, and compare notes, from rough draft to published story. It's amazing what a little editing can do for even a pro, let alone us amateurs.



Tyrael said:


> I've come to the conclusion that no stories are written good-they're merely written then edited good.



I've come to understand that principle painfully well. Tradewinds benefited from _years_ between a couple of those drafts, wherein I became more acquainted with my characters and my world, furthered my own writing skills and style, and could see the re-writes through with a much clearer sense of direction than my older drafts. Those relics I keep around as a reminder against editorial laziness, yet which will never see the light of day, they are that godawful.

My basic setup is the two-story distance. For example, if I'm working on Part 11 in the notebook draft, I'll be revising and transcribing Part 9 in the word- processed draft, and won't move on to Part 10 until I've finished Part 12 in the notebook draft.



Tyrael said:


> I used to do that all the time-would get impatient and skip ahead and write the interesting parts of the story. What I ended up with was, well...



That is something I have absolutely forbidden myself to do with any story anymore, as it was one of the most disastrous things to go wrong with older incarnations of Tradewinds (other projects, too-- including my first full novel, which, unfortunately, was the _fourth_ in a series, with only scant notes and incomplete scenes to precede it-- but I'll stick with TW as an example). Not only was it written in a non-linear, meandering fashion, but I was so "bored" writing the non-action scenes, that my own boredom showed through rather glaringly in the slipshod writing itself. I spent a lot more time on the re-write focusing on character development, making the plot more intuitive, and building a more believable setting. Even the action scenes themselves benefited from cutting back on the raw choreography, instead focusing more on word economy to keep things from getting bogged down.

After all, a fight/chase/shootout/etc should be anything but boring.



Chee said:


> In my opinion, all of the parts should be somewhat interesting. I mean, it doesn't have to be all gaga and explosions, but every single chapter should be character exposition/development or something that pushes the plot forward.



Anymore, the razor by which I cut is if scenes fit one of three criteria:

1) Does it advance the plot?

2) Does it involve interesting revelations or interactions between characters?

3) Does it add something to the atmosphere, setting, humor, suspense, or is engaging enough to be worth reading?

If a scene doesn't fit one of those, I know I can safely compress and summarize it in a transitional sentence or paragraph, and get the reader back to the story they signed on for. Between "action" scenes, my old stories were so full of stretcher, if not outright filler, it wasn't even funny...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 27, 2009)

So now I am being forced to keep a writing journal to keep up with ideas and the like...oh wait, _I am already doing that._


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## Lord Yu (Jan 27, 2009)

I probably should write down more plot ideas instead just world notes.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 27, 2009)

I have been thinking of things to write, of ways to write and of new little experiments to try out. I don't want to re-write my whole story until I am done with it. But I want to have some ideas on what to do better. Scaling back characters and the like. I plan on using already written pieces and working them over some to go to class with.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 31, 2009)

I've been examining my story to affirm the social themes and character roles in the story. Sometimes, I worry about coming off as anti-feminist. I need a female view on my story.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 5, 2009)

Hm, not sure where you could get one of those. I get one sometimes from friends I have here. But I think that you should try asking around the forum. Oh and watch out for websites with beta programs. I don't trust them anymore...


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## Lord Yu (Feb 5, 2009)

I'm not stupid enough to fall for that beta reader crap. I almost never post my work online and even when I do I post it in hidden places no one ever looks.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 5, 2009)

I tried it, I only found two potential readers...neither of them returned the story. I mean in those cases I sent the story out before Ike hit...

I'm not saying they stole the story (if they did too bad because it was laden with mistakes and had an entire shit chapter and it was less than a quarter done.) but they just didn't keep their timeline. I'd rather take someone I know of here who is decent at reading over stuff (most of the time Auraya is the first to see stuff I write.)


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## Tyrael (Feb 5, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Hm, not sure where you could get one of those. I get one sometimes from friends I have here. But I think that you should try asking around the forum. Oh and watch out for websites with beta programs. I don't trust them anymore...





Lord Yu said:


> I'm not stupid enough to fall for that beta reader crap. I almost never post my work online and even when I do I post it in hidden places no one ever looks.



The key is never to post the whole of a piece online if you want to do anything major with it. If it's just sections its unlikely in the extreme to be stolen.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 5, 2009)

I only publicly post the intro. I tend to give other material to trust people and even then never the whole thing.


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## neko-sennin (Feb 5, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I've been examining my story to affirm the social themes and character roles in the story. Sometimes, I worry about coming off as anti-feminist. I need a female view on my story.



Probably the best recommendation I can make is to try to read more books with strong female characters. And by "strong" I mean female characters who drive the story with their own decisions and take the initiative in developing their own character. Focus on women who are active participants in a story, rather than spectators, innocent bystanders, or, worst of all, damsels in distress.



Tyrael said:


> The key is never to post the whole of a piece online if you want to do anything major with it. If it's just sections its unlikely in the extreme to be stolen.



Good advice, which I've stuck to rather strictly for years. The Book of Hondo was meant to be public domain from the outset, my short stories were experiments that I have no qualms sharing, and I have my own reasons for posting Tradewinds in its entirety thus far. Though I'm not so sure that last is really worth anyone's time to "steal" in its "functional draft" incarnation anyway, and even if they did, it's a long, ongoing series, so they would quickly find themselves in one of two predicaments: either a) trapped copy/pasting in lock-step with my every-other-day release schedule, or b) having to paint themselves into a corner after they "caught up" with what I've released and make up an alternate storyline that's guaranteed not to match up with the rest of the canon series.


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## Tyrael (Feb 5, 2009)

Although I've hardly shared it at all, I feel that this project I'm writing really can't be written by anyone except me. It's gonna take a lot of work to iron out the problems even when it is finished and I reckon a lot of the protag. and main themes (it's arguable where one stops and the other starts) need to be a lot less subtle. For the mo., though, I'm focusing on writing the bloody thing.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 5, 2009)

neko-sennin said:


> Probably the best recommendation I can make is to try to read more books with strong female characters. And by "strong" I mean female characters who drive the story with their own decisions and take the initiative in developing their own character. Focus on women who are active participants in a story, rather than spectators, innocent bystanders, or, worst of all, damsels in distress.



My issue is not weak female characters. My issue is more overarching and involves potentially misconstrued elements in the story.


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## Tyrael (Feb 19, 2009)

Is there ever such a thing as over ambition with story telling? This piece I am working on has got to such a scale I think it might be automatically unpalatable.


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## Nicodemus (Feb 19, 2009)

Yes. Scale it down a little, at least what you expose the reader to. Make references, hint at things, but try to keep to what pertains directly to the story. Or else you'll end up with a tome of a novel that no one dares read.

(Just my opinion. Easier to keep it simple.)


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## Tyrael (Feb 19, 2009)

The Observer said:


> Yes. Scale it down a little, at least what you expose the reader to. Make references, hint at things, but try to keep to what pertains directly to the story. Or else you'll end up with a tome of a novel that no one dares read.
> 
> (Just my opinion. *Easier to keep it simple.*)



I think you're very right. Making sure that everything about the story is relevant would be one of the most important things a writer can do. Economy in novels is very important.

Simplicity is a brilliant thing to be able to capture and master (and bloody hard). Sure there are a few novels that are convoluted messes that are fantastic, they are, however, generally just messy and un-engaging.

Thing is, my current novel is a convoluted mess.


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## Serp (Feb 19, 2009)

Really guys, I would love to read some of the stuff you guys write, not in a critical way or to review it, just to you know read it


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## Nicodemus (Feb 19, 2009)

I have several ideas. 

The most stable one is Urban fantasy, revolving around a group of teens with extrordinary abilities. Parents dead, hunted by a group of religious nutballs, and under constant threat of losing control of their very thoughts, but dependent on the power they have been given to stay alive, they ban together in an attempt to live. I love the feel of the story, the setting, and the characters. I'm about halfway done with this one.

The other is yet another Urban fantasy. A century long war between 10 magical guids has been blown open, and Emily (the 10th champion) is caught in the middle of it. After one of her rescuers attempts a suicide mission to find his captured master, she and her best friend embark on a croos country journey to make sure he doesn't kill himself. I've just started here, first couple chapters.

I also hav a fantasy, a sci-fi, and a post apocalyptic survival/horror I've been thinking about, but they're just ideas.


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## Tyrael (Feb 19, 2009)

Serp said:


> Really guys, I would love to read some of the stuff you guys write, not in a critical way or to review it, just to you know read it



I'm happy to let you read some of my stuff. In fact, I need to see how it fairs on reading for entertainment basis.



The Observer said:


> I have several ideas.
> 
> The most stable one is Urban fantasy, revolving around a group of teens with extrordinary abilities. Parents dead, hunted by a group of religious nutballs, and under constant threat of losing control of their very thoughts, but dependent on the power they have been given to stay alive, they ban together in an attempt to live. I love the feel of the story, the setting, and the characters. I'm about halfway done with this one.
> 
> ...



I like the ideas. Remember, no matter how bad it may seem or how exciting other ideas may be, to just keep on going. I have found that is the hardest part of sustained writing.

That said, generally urban fantasy is used as a term to describe fantasy interacting with our reality, whilst if it is in a different world it's high/epic/heroic/dennis fantasy. Not that labels matter though.


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## Nicodemus (Feb 19, 2009)

I know. Both the books take place in modern day America.


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## Tyrael (Feb 19, 2009)

Really? Fair enough, the stuff about guilds through me off. Thought the second was taking place in a cityscape that was in an alternative world.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 19, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Is there ever such a thing as over ambition with story telling? This piece I am working on has got to such a scale I think it might be automatically unpalatable.



My story is as ambitious as it gets spanning genres and years. If it's in you... 

My main most recent concern is that my currently planned ending might be too bitter. But then I remember my title and...


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## Buskuv (Feb 19, 2009)

This is my first post in here. 

Anyways, since I lurk here enough, I'm probably fine to assume I know nothing about novel writing, and am just flinging ideas out and seeing how they fair when articulated outside my head.

I toss around lots of ideas -- too many, I think -- but I've been toying with a certain idea recently that is an amalgam of several aspects I found interesting in other books, but never really fleshed out into things I really found interesting (except one).  

I've always had this fetish fascination with Dragons, when I was younger as the fucking awesome monsters that they were (they breathe fire and shit; how is that not cool?); as I got older, however, I found Dragons, when used more as intelligent beings, to be incredibly fascinating, because they are revered as intelligent and wise and shit.  However, when the Dragons are intelligent beings they are usually really... well, boring.  They're all like wizened old men, and certainly not as dynamic as I've always wanted.  I think the concept of viewing mythology, chivalry and "knightly" acts through the eyes of an old, intelligent but certainly not docile creature to be something I could flesh out more fully, using that as a perspective for an interesting story. 

I keep going between having the "setting" be in a more typical Fantasy age, where few complex machines exist, and having it be closer to industrial revolution (but not quite), with gunpowder, firearms, steam engines and such being introduced.  I rather like the idea of Steampunk meeting Dragon-esque fantasy, but I think I'm just geeking out and indulging myself on my fantasies instead of trying to put out an interesting concept, but we'll see.  Of course politics and such will exist, but depending on the time-frame in which it is placed, the concept of political struggles and conflicts would shift, so I can't solidify the themes I'm going to use there very well. 

I really like this concept (as you can tell by the FF ), and I'm probably going to touch on it for my Short Story I'm writing for my creative writing class.  I can't post it until I've had it graded in class (fucking Turnitin.com), but if I can work that to satisfactory means, I'll probably start expanding and expounding on it, seeing where it goes.

Hi.


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## Nicodemus (Feb 19, 2009)

> Really? Fair enough, the stuff about guilds through me off. Thought the second was taking place in a cityscape that was in an alternative world.



The guild is less a guild and more people ganging up behind one really powerful person. In the book, the guilds were common knowledge until magic paranoia hit an all time high, and then they had to retreat into nearly nothingness. Half the book is the guild re-establishing themselves, drawing lines of loyalties, etc.


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## Tyrael (Feb 19, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> My story is as ambitious as it gets spanning genres and years. If it's in you...
> 
> My main most recent concern is that my currently planned ending might be too bitter. But then I remember my title and...



Thing is, it's something best worked towards. If you try and go straight in the deep end and indulge in pushing your own limits then you risk alienating your reader. Unless you have a ridiculous eye for detail, a brilliant grasp of pacing and an immensely organised mind then trying to go for ambition is only something you should do when you have accrued the experience necessary.


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## Batman (Feb 19, 2009)

I say do what you feel. If it sucks, you can always fix it later.


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## Tyrael (Feb 19, 2009)

Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> *Long post*



I would love to see that tried-although I hope you make more of the concept than you did with your FF. Although a novel does, indeed, allow you far more room than 500 word piece does so I daresay your far more than up to the task.



The Observer said:


> The guild is less a guild and more people ganging up behind one really powerful person. In the book, the guilds were common knowledge until magic paranoia hit an all time high, and then they had to retreat into nearly nothingness. Half the book is the guild re-establishing themselves, drawing lines of loyalties, etc.



Sounds like a cult actually, would be an interesting idea to take on.



Batman said:


> I say do what you feel. If it sucks, you can always fix it later.



Whatever happens, I'm finishing this bloody thing. That much I've set my mind on. Just wondering if it might be good to not place too much faith in it and concentrate on a few other ideas saner, yet still as engaging, before I go mental and alienate everyone who may potentially read anything I write.


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## Batman (Feb 19, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Whatever happens, I'm finishing this bloody thing. That much I've set my mind on. Just wondering if it might be good to not place too much faith in it and concentrate on a few other ideas saner, yet still as engaging, before I go mental and alienate everyone who may potentially read anything I write.



I'm waiting for a draft myself.


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## Buskuv (Feb 19, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> I would love to see that tried-although I hope you make more of the concept than you did with your FF. Although a novel does, indeed, allow you far more room than 500 word piece does so I daresay your far more than up to the task.



501

Although I'm not terribly fond of my FF entry, the concept is something I think would make fresh a lot of things that would otherwise be mundane.  I kinda had a character imagined that was essentially Sandor Clegane as a 100 foot long winged death machine, but it was far too anti-heroic (and funny ) and hard to make empathiz... able.  

I think the hardest part is basically not writing like a person would view a situation, or idea, but not come off as overbearingly critical, confused or otherwise disenchanted with "human" ideas and rituals.  It's a balance that is fickle and infuriating.


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## Tyrael (Feb 19, 2009)

Batman said:


> I'm waiting for a draft myself.



 Indeed.

Actually, I don't have a clue what you meant by this.

BK-Dark, bitter disenchantment is now all the rage in fantasy since Donaldson, or maybe Martin. Have you read _Perdido Street Station_?


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## Chee (Feb 19, 2009)

So, I had a convo today at school and I realised something.

Almost every story, whether film or a book, that revolves around teenagers usually suck.

What do you guys think about this?


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## Batman (Feb 19, 2009)

Chee said:


> So, I had a convo today at school and I realised something.
> 
> Almost every story, whether film or a book, that revolves around teenagers usually suck.
> 
> What do you guys think about this?



 Doesn't 90% of everything usually suck.


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## Chee (Feb 19, 2009)

Batman said:


> Doesn't 90% of everything usually suck.



More commonly with idiotic teenagers.

Like a horror novel usually sucks balls if the protagonist is a teenaged female. And a horror novel with a 40 year old female protagonist is considerably better.


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## Batman (Feb 19, 2009)

I'm not feeling you on this one.


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## Buskuv (Feb 19, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Actually, I don't have a clue what you meant by this.
> 
> BK-Dark, bitter disenchantment is now all the rage in fantasy since Donaldson, or maybe Martin. Have you read _Perdido Street Station_?



I have not. 

I plan to, though; I've seen it name-dropped in the LD.

Well, I mean, that's always interesting.  The Anti-Hero always interests me, if somewhat to a fault.  But I found that it makes it more typical when I have the main character be generally cynical; it's probably just me, but I have a hard time having the character be emotionally recognizable and belong to the typical anti hero clique.  

I like internal conflict much more; and not necessarily just cynics viewing things otherwise.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 19, 2009)

I skip anti hero and dive headlong into Villain Protagonist. I'll admit it some of my POV characters are irredeemably evil.


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## neko-sennin (Feb 19, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> My issue is not weak female characters. My issue is more overarching and involves potentially misconstrued elements in the story.



Ah, you've got a problem that's somehow related to mine. In my case, it has to do with recurring female villains in the early parts of Tradewinds, and because they're intertwined with the long-term storyline, I can't just sweep them out of the way. It's ironic that I started out with a rather (if not always willingly) egalitarian world where strong female characters can make a name for themselves, for good or ill, almost as often as men, but because the majority of them ended up being enemies in the early parts of the series, there's also a kind of awkwardness to having male "heroes" fighting them in battle, especially with the early parts' lack of a major female hero.  For now, all I can do is see how it plays out with a reading audience, and at least take some relief in that series continues to evolve from the first character's childhood perspective of "good guys" and "bad guys" to a more realistic grey-scaled world of people and factions who simply have conflicting goals or agendas.



Tyrael said:


> Is there ever such a thing as over ambition with story telling?



Trust me, it's possible. When I was in high school, my first full novel (complete, though never made it past first-draft stage) accumulated such a massive cast of "named" characters, that even I, the author, started having trouble keeping track of them all.  When I comes to dealing with "108 Stars" level casts, I've learned a lot from The Wheel of Time, Bleach, and, of course, Suikoden. 



The Observer said:


> Yes. Scale it down a little, at least what you expose the reader to. Make references, hint at things, but try to keep to what pertains directly to the story.



Good tactic. That's how I do things anymore. The Sixth Dimension is a vast world, with a long-term cast of characters to match, but I'm not crowding them in all at once. Lots of references to places, people and events, as well as a sense of a dynamic world in motion behind the characters' (and the readers') backs, and most of them will put in an appearance at some point in the series, but I want to take the time to develop each one, rather than just take a brief glimpse out the window at it while speeding by.



The Observer said:


> I have several ideas.
> 
> The most stable one is Urban fantasy, revolving around a group of teens with extraordinary abilities. Parents dead, hunted by a group of religious nutballs, and under constant threat of losing control of their very thoughts, but dependent on the power they have been given to stay alive, they ban together in an attempt to live. I love the feel of the story, the setting, and the characters. I'm about halfway done with this one.



Interesting premise. I especially think the religious "witch-hunt" angle is intriguing, since so many other series have already done a lot with the Military/Industrial and/or Conspiracy Theory approaches.



The Observer said:


> The other is yet another Urban fantasy. A century long war between 10 magical guids has been blown open, and Emily (the 10th champion) is caught in the middle of it. After one of her rescuers attempts a suicide mission to find his captured master, she and her best friend embark on a cross country journey to make sure he doesn't kill himself. I've just started here, first couple chapters.



I agree with Tyrael about these groups sounds more like cults that guilds, but after a period of persecution and/or extinction, it sounds like a logical beginning for rebuilding such orders. The cult idea itself is intriguing, especially the possibility of factions using a cult front as a way of seeking out and recruiting people with magical potential in the modern world without alienating prospective candidates by talking about "magic" up-front until they're ready for "initiation" into a guild or something.



The Observer said:


> I also have a fantasy, a sci-fi, and a post apocalyptic survival/horror I've been thinking about, but they're just ideas.



Maybe, but you might want to be careful with that one. There's been so much survival horror in the past decade that good stuff will be a hard act to follow, and the long list of crappy ones might scare people away from trying a new one.



Chee said:


> So, I had a convo today at school and I realised something.
> 
> Almost every story, whether film or a book, that revolves around teenagers usually suck.
> 
> What do you guys think about this?



If I were to pinpoint a #1 cause for this, it is probably that the majority of such books/shows/games *about* teens are primarily written *for* teens. Which usually entails the usual adult underestimation and insulting the younger generation's intelligence, hand-wringing repression and thematic limitations ranging from a thorough watering-down to heavy-handed censorship, and dispiriting tendency for many adult writers to conveniently *forget* what it was like to be a teenager themselves. This is why I seldom bother with anything being hyped in the "young adult" genres, and stay the hell away from anything with a "tween" label.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 20, 2009)

Been reading Stephen King on Writing, very nice little book. I think it has some of the most insightful tips and things I have seen for writers. It is both encouraging and at the same time realistic in what a writer has to do, has to be, and how you need to think if you're to be serious. 

Some of my writing habits aren't...the best. But one thing I thought it was interesting that he said was that not everyone can be a writer, but many people have the qualities to be a good story teller. 

I also have been reading through my creative writing text book, funny thing, they speak of how a writer should have a realistic view of what it takes if they want to ever sell a book. I think a lot of people forget that some people are so tied up in being artists that they forget that for some of us its a job.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm more focused on getting my book written then trying to sell it. Though I have some ideas of that too.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 20, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm more focused on getting my book written then trying to sell it. Though I have some ideas of that too.



You've got to focus on both at the same time. 

The thing is that, I was reading about the amount of time it takes to get published; to get found and the like. It was pretty staggering. Then I was reading about the submission process, the rules of submission, the costs and everything else like that. It would take me probably the rest of the year before I was ready to even look for a place to submit, and that's if I was finished with the book. 

It is said in the text book that writers need to read, both books on writing and books by other writers. Books by a wide variety of authors. Because this is how we learn of new styles and refresh language and the like. 

So when you are writing, it would save a lot of time to get used to the idea that you need to set deadlines and not worry about finding this muse. Your better off getting something on page and having it to go over later with or without and editor to clean it up, than waiting on a muse to come along and write the perfect book. 

Because many publishing companies really won't want to wait for you to do it either.


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## Batman (Feb 20, 2009)

^ That was one of the best things I ever picked up from his book. Short term & Long term goals. Write a certain amount every day. Finish a draft within a certain amount of time.


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## Tyrael (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm trying really hard to do that at the moment, but I'm currently failing to do 1k a day.

I know, I suck.


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## Batman (Feb 20, 2009)

Well as Yoda would say, "Do or do not. There is no try."

But I know it's harder when you're in school. I have a lot more free time now that I don't have to worry about busywork homework. Especially now that I can't seen to find a second job. Damn I miss real money.


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## Tyrael (Feb 20, 2009)

Well, unless things pick up, I won't be having to worry about that excuse anymore. 

Still, if anybody knows what they are talking about then it is Yoda.

45k in and not 1/5th of the way through tough...this might be too big.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 20, 2009)

Some days, I don't get anything done. Thing is: I'm still young. I'm 22 years old with perhaps alot of time ahead of me. I've got alot to research and experience before I could even think about submission.  Things that only come through travel.


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## Tyrael (Feb 20, 2009)

I know that if getting more life experience is required for writing I might as well give up now.

Problem with suggestion there is a lot of time is that there is never enough time-you have to start and be disciplined and devote yourself from as young as you can to have a minute chance and if I decide I have time yet and can take my foot off of the pedal I doubt I'll be able to get the damn thign back on.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 20, 2009)

I never said I'd stop working. I just need some backing for edits. For instance, I REALLY should learn Japanese for some parts of my story.


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## Serp (Feb 20, 2009)

Ty average novels are like 55K and your not even 1/5 through.

I really need to learn alot, like German, Spanish, French, Japanese, and a wide variety of African languages if I want to make decent magic spells and mantra's in my story.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm shooting for a doorstopper novel. One you could kill a cat with.


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## Tyrael (Feb 20, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I never said I'd stop working. I just need some backing for edits. For instance, I REALLY should learn Japanese for some parts of my story.



Fair enough. Japanese?



Serp said:


> Ty average novels are like 55K and your not even 1/5 through.
> 
> I really need to learn alot, like German, Spanish, French, Japanese, and a wide variety of African languages if I want to make decent magic spells and mantra's in my story.



Well, more like 80-120k, but what I'm currently doing is kinda insane-more so in content that scale.

You intend to become fluent with all of those languages?


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## Lord Yu (Feb 20, 2009)

Being the weaboo I am my story uses a ton of Japanese names. Locations, characters, terms. Being the bloody brilliant bastard I am I've opted to use substitute names for the locations using two of my imaginary languages.

The Empire of Anezaie has three languages Deyul, Japanese, and I forgot the third one which is pretty much a dead language only used on maps anyway so it doesn't matter.


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## Serp (Feb 20, 2009)

@Ty fair enough, I just checked my ebooks again, I have no idea where I got 55K from 

And I would like to be fluent in them, but alas it will never happen.


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## Chee (Feb 20, 2009)

You guys really don't need to learn the language, if you have a friend that can speak Japanese (there are plenty in the language section and the translation section) just consult them.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 20, 2009)

I understand how Japanese works. I can pronounce it fluently.  I could probably learn how to read kanji if I bothered to study my kanji book. But I'm too unmotivated.


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## Chee (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm curious though, since a majority of people can't read Japanese how are you going to explain what the word means?

Like a glossary in the back or something?


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## Lord Yu (Feb 20, 2009)

Whenever it's necessary it'll be explained in context of course, but for something like locations it really isn't that necessary.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Feb 20, 2009)

Chee said:


> I'm curious though, since a majority of people can't read Japanese how are you going to explain what the word means?
> 
> Like a glossary in the back or something?


 
Prolly. _Tokyo Year Zero_ utilized a glossary, and I adored that novel.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 20, 2009)

I actually read about this when I was struggling with writing British characters...

I went through a stage where I tried to type it out phonetically, I found that to be trivial and time wasting. So I just said they had an accent and went on like that. In some cases I describe the accent. But I won't write in it. 

Then when it comes to languages, same thing. 

Sometimes in the D&D thread my character mutters curses or phrases in Tolkien's Elvish language. But very seldom...


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## Tyrael (Feb 20, 2009)

I want to write a book where everyone has a Yorkshire accent.


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## Buskuv (Feb 20, 2009)

My main character will have the most convoluted cockney accent imaginable.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 20, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> I want to write a book where everyone has a Yorkshire accent.





Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> My main character will have the most convoluted cockney accent imaginable.



I know both of them...but neither fit in what I was writing.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 20, 2009)

I don't really bother much with accenting text till it's amusing. 



> “Walkin on a trail o' corpses I stumbled upon a beauty, face o' morbid tranquility.” A voice singing in English.
> “That doesn't even rhyme and your singing sucks.” Eridaltia shouted out.
> “Never was good at poetry. Especially sing song.” Through the fog a smiling Nuriat came draped in a red liquid curtain swinging his sword like a child with a stick.
> “What's with the claret?” Eridaltia stood and scowled in disgust. Everyone else stood back in shock. Nuriat kept swinging his sword without a care.
> “Ya seem rather understandin this fine morn.” He laughed. “We have a bit o' trouble o'er yonder with a gaggle o' beasts.” His new accent and even more unusual cackle gave Eridaltia a twist in her chest. She couldn't decide whether to laugh or scream.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Feb 20, 2009)

I love accents in writing a ridiculous amount.

I had fun reading _A Clockwork Orange _in that crazy slang . . .


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## Chee (Feb 20, 2009)

lol, accents. 

The only thing you should worry about is how they phrase things and what kind of terms they use. Most Southern people say "fixing to" when they mean "about to".


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 20, 2009)

Problem with accents is that they're a lot more likely to fail or look silly. So I'd prefer avoiding them. I will write out words that a vastly different or non-existent (such as y'all) if I have to. But don't like the hassle of reading or writing them most of the time.


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## Chee (Feb 20, 2009)

I like writing it out cause it gives characters different "voices".

If its just one kind of style, it looks like they are all the same character.


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## Tyrael (Feb 20, 2009)

Chee said:


> I like writing it out cause it gives characters different "voices".
> 
> *If its just one kind of style, it looks like they are all the same character.*



Depends on the skill of the writer. There's the danger of convoluting speech and making characters defined solely by their accents.

Accents are like anything in a writer's toolbox-can be used well or badly.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Feb 20, 2009)

Chee said:


> I like writing it out cause it gives characters different "voices".
> 
> If its just one kind of style, it looks like they are all the same character.


 
Seconded. And remember who is supposed to have what personality quirks is difficult after a few chapters; accents, or at least, different styles of speech help differentiate the characters.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 20, 2009)

Chee said:


> I like writing it out cause it gives characters different "voices".
> 
> If its just one kind of style, it looks like they are all the same character.



You can take two characters from plenty of books, strip out the tags and the like and tell how they talk who they are. Dialogue should reflect characters in the words they use.


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## Chee (Feb 20, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Depends on the skill of the writer. There's the danger of convoluting speech and making characters defined solely by their accents.
> 
> Accents are like anything in a writer's toolbox-can be used well or badly.



Develop the characters first, add the accents later.



> You can take two characters from plenty of books, strip out the tags and the like and tell how they talk who they are. Dialogue should reflect characters in the words they use.



I never denied that. The words that they use are the most important, but accents, if important to the character, should be used. It doesn't even have to be limited to accents either. Like Miss said, it can be personality quirks.

I'm reading Rocket Boys right now and I can tell when Quentin is speaking automatically. It's just his personality quirk.


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## Tyrael (Feb 20, 2009)

Chee said:


> Develop the characters first, add the accents later.



A sound philosophy indeed.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 20, 2009)

Chee said:


> Develop the characters first, add the accents later.
> 
> 
> I never denied that. The words that they use are the most important, but accents, if important to the character, should be used. It doesn't even have to be limited to accents either.



You can say you like them, but you can't claim they should be used, It's up to the author seriously and from what Bat's told me about this one guy he read, its not necessary. I don't remember the author's name. But word choice a lot of the time is enough to show the character. 

Many authors, myself included, refuse to write with them.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 20, 2009)

Some characters I start from accents.


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## Chee (Feb 20, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You can say you like them, but you can't claim they should be used, It's up to the author seriously and from what Bat's told me about this one guy he read, its not necessary. I don't remember the author's name. But word choice a lot of the time is enough to show the character.
> 
> Many authors, myself included, refuse to write with them.



Yea, I'm the person who likes to write them. Personally, it gives it a more down-to-Earth feel. Personally, its my opinion and that's yours so that pretty much ends that.


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## Tyrael (Feb 20, 2009)

Accents are useful for style texturing mainly, I reckon. A book without accents will feel very different from one with them.

Also word choice comes into accent to.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 20, 2009)

Chee said:


> Yea, I'm the person who likes to write them. Personally, it gives it a more down-to-Earth feel. Personally, its my opinion and that's yours so that pretty much ends that.



Just don't use Brian Jacques as a model.


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## Chee (Feb 20, 2009)

Never even heard of him.


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## Nicodemus (Feb 21, 2009)

Never heard of Brian Jaques? Blasphemy!

He wrote a series of books, "Redwall" with very heavy accents. I think he does a good job of managing them, and I like his work.


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## Chee (Feb 21, 2009)

I read so few novels. 
I spend most of my time watching films instead.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 21, 2009)

The Observer said:


> Never heard of Brian Jaques? Blasphemy!
> 
> He wrote a series of books, "Redwall" with very heavy accents. I think he does a good job of managing them, and I like his work.



I wouldn't call his work very good, but its good for nostalgia sake. 



Chee said:


> I read so few novels.
> I spend most of my time watching films instead.



I need to read more, it makes it harder to write when you don't read, but I am too lazy.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 22, 2009)

All right, on to the next topic of business.


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## Nicodemus (Feb 22, 2009)

When you guys write, how do you deal with your worlds' timelines? I'm afraid I'm not accurately presenting the timeline of my universe to the reader. How do you guys deal with that?


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## Tyrael (Feb 22, 2009)

The important thing is to make sure you spread it out properly throughout the story, and try not to go into details that are unnecessary. I'm sure for some people it helps if you have a set, solid time line written out. The reader only needs a good idea of what has happened rather than an intimate and vast understanding of the nuances of your history.

Being the pretentious dick that I am, I'm bad generally not in a good example though, since a lot of my ideas come from presenting stories in a non-linear fashion. I like having vague time lines that will contradict each other in order to throw ambiguity over the nature of what actually happened. Those are my aspirations at any rate: most of the time it seems I am just communicating myself badly.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 22, 2009)

Dependent on which character I'm writing, you may get straightforward truth and linearity or you may get something completely fabricated within the characters mind.


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## Chee (Feb 22, 2009)

The Observer said:


> When you guys write, how do you deal with your worlds' timelines? I'm afraid I'm not accurately presenting the timeline of my universe to the reader. How do you guys deal with that?



You can make a timeline of events and post it on your wall, you can take notes of events and post it on your wall. Make little sidenotes on the paper you are writing on (or if its a computer you can...uhh...do something. )

Anyways, the biggest thing you can do is just reread reread reread and reread some more so you can catch all the mistakes. And no, I'm not saying reread every single day, that would get tedious. Take a small break, like a week or two, pick it up and reread it. You'll find a majority of the mistakes.

I trashed one of my stories cause it was just so bad after I read it after a couple of months.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 22, 2009)

I only find timelines hard when it comes to synchronizing character paths.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 22, 2009)

I made a timeline one time, but I had done this only to keep my own events referenced correctly. My first few stories happen only a month apart or so, I mention the months in passing or talk about the change of seasons...but I don't dwell on it too much.


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## Tyrael (Feb 22, 2009)

Chee said:


> You can make a timeline of events and post it on your wall, you can take notes of events and post it on your wall. Make little sidenotes on the paper you are writing on (or if its a computer you can...uhh...do something. )
> 
> Anyways, the biggest thing you can do is just reread reread reread and reread some more so you can catch all the mistakes. And no, I'm not saying reread every single day, that would get tedious. Take a small break, like a week or two, pick it up and reread it. You'll find a majority of the mistakes.
> 
> I trashed one of my stories cause it was just so bad after I read it after a couple of months.



If you reread it that much then it's no wonder you trashed it. Although you need to, of course, give it three or four looks through, getting other people's opinion is, I believe, at least as important. If you keep rereading you'll grow to resent it and spiral downwards until your edits no longer make sense and you see so many holes where there are none.


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## Chee (Feb 22, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> If you reread it that much then it's no wonder you trashed it. Although you need to, of course, give it three or four looks through, getting other people's opinion is, I believe, at least as important. If you keep rereading you'll grow to resent it and spiral downwards until your edits no longer make sense and you see so many holes where there are none.



Nah, I wrote the story during school, never reread it. Put it away because I was bored of it and I found it about 3 months later under my bed. Reread it, hated it, and trashed it. Nothing about it was redeeming.

Only reread it once. I only said "reread" it a bunch of times to put an emphasis on it. Sorry if I confused you guys.


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## Suigetsu (Feb 23, 2009)

Hello there people!
I come to you for some advice1
You see I really need some help when it comes to sit down and writting stuff.

I mean I ve got the inspiration and the idea of wath I want I want to write but I just seem to be very uncofortable when it comes to write in words or in the notepad.

This is gonna sound wierd but I actually enjoy more when it comes to write in posts, messages etc..
I dont know why, guess it is the necesity for someone to read the stuff I write or sumething.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 23, 2009)

I'm on forums all day when I could be doing essays or writing books.


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## neko-sennin (Feb 23, 2009)

Chee said:


> Develop the characters first, add the accents later.



Unless a character's accent flows naturally from your pen, that's an excellent philosophy. Some writers have a strong talent for phonetic rendering, and others have a tin ear. It's most important to capture a character's manner of speaking-- phrasing, expressions, local mannerisms, and personality-- as phonetically rendered accents are very hit and miss. When they hit, they add flavor and personality, but when they miss, they're very annoying and distract the reader from the story.

BTW, is anybody else been getting this crap from FP lately:



> Login/submission area is currently inaccessible due to a technical glitch.
> We apologize for the brief inconvenience.
> *Please come back in a few minutes.*



"A few minutes" has been 36 _hours_ and counting thus far...

Anybody know when a few minutes will be up? They don't seem to have pulled their domain name out from under us without notifying anybody this time, so I'm not sure what the deal is.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 23, 2009)

neko-sennin said:


> Unless a character's accent flows naturally from your pen, that's an excellent philosophy. Some writers have a strong talent for phonetic rendering, and others have a tin ear. It's most important to capture a character's manner of speaking-- phrasing, expressions, local mannerisms, and personality-- as phonetically rendered accents are very hit and miss. When they hit, they add flavor and personality, when they miss, they're very annoying and distract the reader from the story.
> 
> So, anybody else been getting this crap from FP lately:
> 
> ...




Isn't Fiction Press great.


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## Chee (Feb 23, 2009)

Man, I haven't added any stories to fictionpress in a while.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Feb 23, 2009)

Chee said:


> Man, I haven't added any stories to fictionpress in a while.


 
I wish I would get my short story back so I could add it to fictionpress. I need to start appreciating more of my work, but I'm so used to editing other people's work and going to town with red that I'm a hundred times harsher on my own writing, now. 

Ugh, one wouldn't believe the sort of things that are considered "passable" for a newspaper article. >>


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## Lord Yu (Feb 23, 2009)

I've been thinking of writing a short story set in the world of my novel. I have a title a main character but no plot.


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## Tyrael (Feb 24, 2009)

It's disillusionment time again.

I'm sick of this fucking story.


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## Batman (Feb 24, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> It's disillusionment time again.
> 
> I'm sick of this fucking story.



Probably a good day to write. If you can come up with something on a shit day, then you'll feel a sense of accomplishment on the next.


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## Tyrael (Feb 24, 2009)

Actually I've done 600 words today (as puny as that is, it's past my target), and I just finished watching _Serial Experiments Lain_ (what a fucking awesome anime that was) and reckon I'm gonna have to take another 20 mins to recover from it. After that its back to the writing.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 24, 2009)

I said it was inspiring.


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## Tyrael (Feb 24, 2009)

You were more than right too. Damn.


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## Batman (Feb 24, 2009)

I never watched that one. A friend of mine tried to get me to watch it back when we were in H.S. maybe middle school . . . but anime was so hard to come by back then.


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## Tyrael (Feb 24, 2009)

It's worth a look, if even for the spectacle. Really fantastic.


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## Batman (Feb 24, 2009)

So I've hit a milestone in what I'm working on & I'm very pleased.


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## Tyrael (Feb 24, 2009)

I'll probably regret asking, but how long has it taken you to get that far?


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## Batman (Feb 24, 2009)

I started  . . . around the 8th I think.


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## Tyrael (Feb 24, 2009)

My current project is just about to become 50k. I've been working on it for 4 months.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 24, 2009)

Took me months to get that much.


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## Batman (Feb 24, 2009)

Meh, I've just had practice


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## Tyrael (Feb 24, 2009)

I think a very set routine and discipline are the key.


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## Batman (Feb 24, 2009)

Well that does helps too. Also add in the fact that I'm not in school anymore so I have a bit more time to pursue.


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## Taurus Versant (Feb 24, 2009)

I...actually wrote something again.

My quality's taken a serious dive in the past, but at least this proves to me I can still muster my resolve.


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## Tyrael (Feb 24, 2009)

Quality is for the edits-what counts first time around is that its getting written.


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## Denji (Feb 24, 2009)

Hey guys. This is my first post here, so I'll take a little time to explain my situation.

I've been working on a story (novel?) on and off for about a year now. I haven't written anything substantial (probably 25,000 words or so, most of which will be rewritten since I now know what I'm doing), mostly because of school. It's unfortunate, especially recently, since my muse has returned in the past week or so, but this is mid-terms week, so I have hardly any time to devote to writing. I'm the kind of guy who likes set aside several days and write for 5 hours straight each day. Thankfully, Spring Break is only a few days away, and after that school shouldn't be as intense until Finals, so I can definitely get into my groove soon. My plan is to have the book completed by the end of summer. I have no idea how long it will be as of yet (that should sort itself out as I write, naturally). I'm just itching to get back into it, since I've finally worked out most of the plot and pacing. Anyway, if anyone is interested, I would be happy to share updates and snippets of my work once I get the ball rolling again.

Happy writing everyone!


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## Batman (Feb 25, 2009)

So I was reading an article called "7 Writing Habits of Amazing Writers". Thought it was interesting.



> 1. Stephen King. In his book On Writing, King says that he writes 10 pages a day without fail, even on holidays. That’s a lot of writing each day, and it has led to some incredible results: King is one of the most prolific writers of our time.
> 
> 2. Ernest Hemingway. By contrast with King, “Papa” Hemingway wrote 500 words a day. That’s not bad, though. Hemingway, like me, woke early to write to avoid the heat and to write in peace and quiet. Interestingly, though Hemingway is famous for his alcoholism, he said he never wrote while drunk.
> 
> ...


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## Chee (Feb 25, 2009)

> Ada did his writing standing up, and all on index cards. This allowed him to write scenes non-sequentially, as he could re-arrange the cards as he wished. His novel Ada took up more than 2,000 cards.



Oddly, I do this too, but not on short projects of course. Although I sit down because my feet get tired after a while.


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## Chee (Feb 25, 2009)

Okay, I need some feedback on a quick five page screenplay I wrote for class.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> over black:​
> We hear the sound of a car zooming past us at a high speed, as the title fades into black.
> 
> A male voice, who we later find out is JIMMY, gasps in pain:
> ...






Any feedback is appreciated. I really want this film to be good because my last projects sucked ass.


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## Shiranui (Feb 25, 2009)

Well, I was bored during one of my classes, and so I developed the idea for a story (when I should have been paying attention). The story focuses on ones memories and how they effect the individual. So, I wrote this little introduction:

_"Memories we try fervently to recollect are often, to our dismay, beyond the reach of the minds limitations. Only fragments of such memories can be salvaged, though we do not see them clearly - admiring them in high, definable quality. No, these memories are partial, imperfect, opaque; incapable of assimilating with one another, left only to frustrate the mind. Progressively, these "incomprehensible" thoughts are substituted with "newer" revelations; ever-changing interests affecting what remains vividly clear and what slowly dissipates. Restitution can be obtained, though the mind requires some assistance from familiar objects, sounds and features. This extension of the mind; however, reveals the true nature of these memories; as they cannot be evoked immediately, they are often less important to the individual, less relevant to what influences ones actions. However, those which we can conjure on a whim are extraordinary - for better or worse. These imperishable thoughts are the scars which define our character, shape our disposition, and develop our prejudices."_​

It can also be found in my signature, but due to the character limit I had to edit a few sentences. So they aren't identical.


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## Batman (Feb 25, 2009)

Chee said:


> Okay, I need some feedback on a quick five page screenplay I wrote for class.
> 
> 
> 
> Any feedback is appreciated. I really want this film to be good because my last projects sucked ass.



It's been a about two years since I've written in this format, so if I'm way off then just tell me to shut the hell up. 

Anyways here are a few notes from my perspective.

- Your dialog needs purpose. It's all explicative. He says that he got shot. He confirms that it hurts. The other guy tells them they're out of gas. You're not thinking in pictures. The beauty of film is that you can literally show us what's happening while the characters inform us on other things, while the music might be telling us something completely different. I don't think you're taking advantage of the medium enough.

 . . . actually that might be my only real note. It just needs something to make it stand out. Really work with that dialog. You've only got a few pages, make every second count like it's your last. Don't let the man in the trunk make the story interesting. Let the interesting story contain a man in the trunk.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 25, 2009)

I am told that I should give plays a shot...since I love dialogue.


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## Batman (Feb 25, 2009)

^ You should. They're a blast. But a bitch to put together production wise.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 25, 2009)

Batman said:


> ^ You should. They're a blast. But a bitch to put together production wise.



I have to do one for class. Its funny I have a friend who graduated film school and he actually talked about making a movie out of something I wrote. I would love that. I helped him edit a script for a student film he made called "The Businessman"


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## Batman (Feb 26, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I have to do one for class. Its funny I have a friend who graduated film school and he actually talked about making a movie out of something I wrote. I would love that. I helped him edit a script for a student film he made called "The Businessman"



Pretty cool. My cousin went to NYU film school and he told me that he's swearing off documentaries forever.  He's still trying to find out what it is he wants to do now. I never thought about writing anything for him though. I'd have to learn to let go for something like that.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 26, 2009)

Batman said:


> Pretty cool. My cousin went to NYU film school and he told me that he's swearing off documentaries forever.  He's still trying to find out what it is he wants to do now. I never thought about writing anything for him though. I'd have to learn to let go for something like that.



You really should try it...I mean you're a damn good at writing. I think I am best at character writing.


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## Batman (Feb 26, 2009)

I just hate giving up the control of the story. That's my biggest things. Back when I thought I wanted be a screenwriter, I kind of just assumed I would direct as well. But I suppose I could just tell myself that I have other stuff to work on and not worry about it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 26, 2009)

Batman said:


> I just hate giving up the control of the story. That's my biggest things. Back when I thought I wanted be a screenwriter, I kind of just assumed I would direct as well. But I suppose I could just tell myself that I have other stuff to work on and not worry about it.



That bothers me too, its kind of rough when every movie to book transfer we seems to get fucked up all of the time when they make them. I wouldn't want to lose my creative control over the story either. I guess having someone you can trust and you know helps.


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## Batman (Feb 26, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> That bothers me too, its kind of rough when every movie to book transfer we seems to get fucked up all of the time when they make them. I wouldn't want to lose my creative control over the story either. I guess having someone you can trust and you know helps.



That's true. Johnathan Nolan's got it good in that respect.


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## Lord Yu (Feb 26, 2009)

My method to invoke my writing is sitting down listening to tons of dark music to mold melancholia into madness and then ideas in my fingers.


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## Chee (Feb 26, 2009)

Batman said:


> It's been a about two years since I've written in this format, so if I'm way off then just tell me to shut the hell up.
> 
> Anyways here are a few notes from my perspective.
> 
> ...



I had to make it very restricted since this is no-budget film. We can't do any gun fights so I can't show the guy getting shot and I need to have the cars full of gas so we don't have to tow it (just in case it capoots) in the middle of the desert when we start shooting.

Now I can possibly just say the car is full of gas but the fuel gauge is broke and work around it that way I suppose.

But yea, I totally agree with you. I'll try to tone it down and keep it interesting up to the twist. Thanks for the advice. :3


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## Tyrael (Feb 26, 2009)

> _Silver tendrils of light died in the coming of a dark sky. It melted behind the horizons like liquid running down a flat surface, obscured prematurely by the towering buildings and fantastical structures. It was found dying on every reflective surface, draining the cityscape of any natural colour the daylight lent to it. In its wake came garish neon, damp fluorescent oranges and yellows and the glaring brightness of lights that resembled spotlights. The scene took on a far different atmosphere, becoming almost surreal in its very appearance. No, not surreal-hyper real. It looked more real than reality itself, as if humans had found a way to manufacture a different level of existence.
> 
> There was life in the wide square our window looks onto. Between the giant moving advertisements and artificially lit buildings that pumped out music as if it were sewage, there were the creatures of the night that had come to feed on that sewage. Colourful and impractical costumes danced in the oscillating unreality. Their wearers bellowed and laughed and shouted and vomited and fought and kissed and in the shadows copulated and stole and bled. There was something ritualistic about the behaviour, a shared animal compulsion that drove such a display. Amongst the pools of intermingling music he could almost imagine that it had a sense of rhythm to it.
> 
> ...



I'm feeling quite proud of this piece of writing, so tell me how bad it is before my ego gets too big. And yes it is meant to be formatted like that.


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## Chee (Feb 26, 2009)

There was a lot of fancy words in there, I couldn't really figure out what the story is talking about...maybe its just me.


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## kakoishii (Feb 26, 2009)

^ lol, that's like everything we read in my creative writing class  it's all flowery, overly elaborate, and deliberately cryptic, and if you don't get it your stupid or something, so I end up feeling really stupid half the time in that class.

I'm thinking I could get a better feel of what the piece is about if I read it all in context since this is just a excerpt I feel whatever I missing I may not be able to grasp until I've read it all. Your words do create an embellished picture of imagery that reads very eloquently.


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## Tyrael (Feb 27, 2009)

Chee said:


> There was a lot of fancy words in there, I couldn't really figure out what the story is talking about...maybe its just me.





kakoishii said:


> ^ lol, that's like everything we read in my creative writing class  it's all flowery, overly elaborate, and deliberately cryptic, and if you don't get it your stupid or something, so I end up feeling really stupid half the time in that class.
> 
> I'm thinking I could get a better feel of what the piece is about if I read it all in context since this is just a excerpt I feel whatever I missing I may not be able to grasp until I've read it all. Your words do create an embellished picture of imagery that reads very eloquently.



Actually, believe it or not, it makes less sense in context.  That said, this is just something that kind of happened and I've only got a skeleton of an idea what it is.

I agree that storytelling>style, and you should not compromise the ability to engage people for the sake of seeming sophisticated. At the same time, this piece was trying to set up a densely textured style and paint a still picture to ease the reader into what would soon be a rather confusing series of events. Maybe the fact that nothing has happened is throwing you off.

Cheers for the thoughts.


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## Batman (Feb 27, 2009)

I kinda like it.  It reminds me of a flashfic you've done b4, but easier to read. Strong final paragraph too.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 1, 2009)

I've been trying to fuse style and storytelling. I do not only wish to tell a great story but tell it beautifully.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 1, 2009)

SO today I bought a copy of Lord of the Rings and this Terry Prachett book, going to give it a try.


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## kakoishii (Mar 1, 2009)

Eww! I hate Tolkien, his excessive descriptions give me a head ache, it was such a painful experience.

Right now, I'm desperately trying to catch up on my journal entries for my intro to ficiton writing class. Journal#4 write a 1st person narrative of a person who has Alzheimer's disease tying to tel a judge and jury of a kidnapping. Journal #5 Have a conversation with a stranger, take noes and write the dialogue from you perspective.

 these journal assignments suck and I don't want to do either of them and he's checking them tomorrow and oh yeah I'm screwed. I'm also 14 chapters behind on the Murder at the Vicarage Agatha Christie mystery I'm supposed to be reading for this class. I'm really, really screwed right now.


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## Eureka_Seven_Fan (Mar 1, 2009)

I listen to music that fits the mood of the story. 

Story and style can be fused together, but it takes practise.

You just have to get into the story.

And whatever you do, don't use tons of fancy words. Let the story tell itself in simple terms, only occasionally using a sophisticated word or two.

The most important thing is to allow you and the story to become one, and to let your voice come forth through your words.

And don't be afraid to write something simply and silly. Your writing can take on the form of ANYTHING!

Example.......



> Taki opened his eyes, his mind suddenly feeling very foggy.
> "Where am I?" he asked groggily, also noticing an apparant dampness around his mid-section and below.
> "You're in the kitchen," a voice in front of him replied.
> Looking forward he saw a man dressed in a uniform typical of a chef.
> ...



I just wrote that off the top of my head as something silly I could come up with. But it doesn't have to be written in that way. You can be creative. 

-Matt


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## Catterix (Mar 2, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I've been trying to fuse style and storytelling. I do not only wish to tell a great story but tell it beautifully.



Same. I take so much consideration regarding the eloquence of the language when I'm reading something, and I'm extremely analytical. But when I'm writing prose, I struggle to stick to the specific style I've chosen. Script work is easier as you can find pace and rhythm so much more substantially in conversations.



kakoishii said:


> Eww! I hate Tolkien, his excessive descriptions give me a head ache, it was such a painful experience.



LOL I love you! Completely and utterly agree. On the whole, I like The Hobbit, but I find The Lord of the Rings such a marshland of overly detailed descriptions and vastly elaborative nonsense that brings nothing to the story in the context of enjoyment. He makes no pretence at being an author and instead ploughs into a melodramatic universe to escape the horror of World War 2.


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## Batman (Mar 2, 2009)

I think the query letter was invented by the same Satan who invented mathematics.


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## Tyrael (Mar 2, 2009)

*Is jealous people have to do creative writing for assignments*


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## Catterix (Mar 2, 2009)

Ok, I literally just found this on my laptop. I find a lot of things that I tended to just write and forget about. Judging by the date, this is about 2 years old, so I wrote it when I was sixteen.



> It was as he sat there, the sun warm on his page. He was at the end of the row of tables, at the end of the line, the end of his tether. The voices of the class faded into the background, a murmuring silence that enveloped his thoughts. He could feel the world around him spinning. Looking up, Peter stared at the wall ahead of him; it was blank, clear… It was so clear!
> 
> Grabbing his coat off the back of his chair, Peter got to his feet. He slid out from behind the table, pulled on his coat and was out the door in a matter of seconds.
> 
> The ground slipped beneath Peter’s feet as he gained speed. The wind began to whistle loudly, his coat flapping out behind him. Peter felt his breath catch in his chest as the cars blew past him, the gates to the school melting into the background.



Just sort of caught my attention. Really made me wonder what I was thinking about at the time.


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## Nicodemus (Mar 3, 2009)

I usually write first person, and so I tend to avoid overly despcriptive paragraphs, as I feel that goes against the way my characer would tell his story.


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## Chee (Mar 3, 2009)

The Observer said:


> I usually write first person, and so I tend to avoid overly despcriptive paragraphs, as I feel that goes against the way my characer would tell his story.



If you do it wrong though, it will end up like Twilight.


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## Nicodemus (Mar 3, 2009)

Don't worry. My characters aren't sparkly vampires in love. They're badass demons getting hunted by religious wackos.


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## Chee (Mar 3, 2009)

It's not that, but if you make the first person narration to simple it sounds like fanfiction.

You have to have a reliable narrator or its just gonna sound like a personal journal. Nothing wrong with having a story formatted like a journal, but its the same thing, you still have to have a reliable narration in the journal format as well. Or people would simply get confused or turned off.


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## kakoishii (Mar 3, 2009)

Chee said:


> If you do it wrong though, it will end up like Twilight.



I still wonder how Meyer's got away with as much as she did and still managed to get it published. It's glaringly obvious the work was never work shopped which is a shame.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 3, 2009)

I still fear that I am creating something of Anti-Twilight. I have an impossibly beautiful demon falling in love with a teenage girl. (Neither one qualifies as a Mary Sue as hard as I check thankfully. Also the girl hates the demon.)


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## Tyrael (Mar 4, 2009)

_Perdido Street Station_ was written with the purpose of being anti-Tolkein and that is pretty fuckin' brilliant.

I drew up an outline yesterday that seems like anti-Tolkien too. Pity there are no likable characters in it.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 4, 2009)

I started my story in 2003 before the Twilight phenomenon. As the part I mentioned is really only a part of my overarching story it doesn't really stick as Anti-Twilight. I'm just being overly neurotic.


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## Tyrael (Mar 4, 2009)

I know-kinda reminds me of how Pratchett was once asked if _Equal Rites_ was a spoof of _Harry Potter_.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 5, 2009)

As of recently, I have been concerned about perhaps unconscious sexism in my story. I stuffed a female character I quite liked into  so to speak and quite cheaply I might add. She had some room for development and elaboration. It made me feel bad.


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## Chee (Mar 5, 2009)

^^ You should really fix that.



kakoishii said:


> I still wonder how Meyer's got away with as much as she did and still managed to get it published. It's glaringly obvious the work was never work shopped which is a shame.



I recently read an article where someone picked apart the first paragraph. It had about 4 'was' throughout one paragraph. Sad really.

Here it is:

"My mother drove me to the airport with the windows rolled down. It was seventy-five degrees in Phoenix, the sky a perfect, cloudless blue. I was wearing my favorite shirt--sleeveless, white eyelet lace; I was wearing it as a farewell gesture. My carry-on item was a parka."

How in the world she got away with such crappy writing, I'll never know.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 5, 2009)

If My Immortal can go from actual fanfiction to published, anyone can get published.


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## Chee (Mar 5, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> If My Immortal can go from actual fanfiction to published, anyone can get published.



And I thought editors and agents were picky.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 5, 2009)

My Immortal was literally Harry Potter fanfiction reedited into an original story.


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## Chee (Mar 5, 2009)

lol, wow. Is it any good? Or is it Twishit level?


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## Lord Yu (Mar 5, 2009)

From what it sounds, like it's worse.


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## Chee (Mar 5, 2009)

> Hi my name is Ebony Dark’ness Dementia Raven Way and I have long
> ebony black hair (that’s how I got my name) with purple streaks and red tips that
> reaches my mid-back and icy blue eyes like limpid tears and a lot of people tell
> me I look like Amy Lee (AN: if u don’t know who she is get da hell out of here!).



Oh dear god, its worse than the Twilight opening paragraph.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 5, 2009)

Chee said:


> Oh dear god, its worse than the Twilight opening paragraph.



Twilight's not that bad, I read the first page...there's plenty on FF.net that is worse.


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## Chee (Mar 5, 2009)

That's what I just said. My Immortal's opening paragraph, which is a fanfiction, is worse than Twilight.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 5, 2009)

buy it here.


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## Tyrael (Mar 6, 2009)

The only things really wrong with that opening paragraph I can see is the double barreled adjectives and repetition of was. Other than that it's okay.

All of my women tend to be victims too-however, since pretty much everyone in my book is I think it's excusable.


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## Chee (Mar 6, 2009)

The sentences are short and choppy. They don't explain very much, do we really care that the windows are rolled down and what degrees Phoenix is? There is a repetition of was.

Mediocre writting.


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## Tyrael (Mar 6, 2009)

Chee said:


> The sentences are short and choppy. They don't explain very much, do we really care that the windows are rolled down and what degrees Phoenix is? There is a repetition of was.
> 
> Mediocre writting.



Repetition of was is pretty bad, but the syntax and extra details are little stylistic thing that I don't find particularly bad. If all of her writing was like that, yeah, but for just a paragraph it sets the scene adequately.

But I agree-Meyers ain't particularly bad at writing, merely average.


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## kakoishii (Mar 7, 2009)

Meyer's isn't bad per say I think the best way to describe is a diamond in the rough. She has the potential to be very good but somewhere along the line she got overly pretentious and big headed about her own writing that apparently she doesn't feel it's up for revision or reworking. Normally with a 1st time authors freshman novel they improve as they go on, Meyer's twilight saga doesn't seem to get much better, she doesn't attempt to fix her mistakes or missteps and thus exacerbates them by default. On a shallow level I can enjoy them for what they are, on a critical analysis level she leaves much to be desired in the way of her writing with mere simple things (don't tell me Bells's interesting and special without ever showing me that it's the case), it becomes hard to ignore.


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## Chee (Mar 7, 2009)

Meyer has the potential, I agree, but she shuts off criticism everywhere she turns. She needs to grow some balls and realize her stories aren't that hot.


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## Tyrael (Mar 7, 2009)

She's evidently not a great talent-with enough revision and redrafting anyone can turn something into an excellent piece of writing though. 

I am beginning to believe that there are some people who can just innately write to a flabbergasting level, and it's galling to find people who don't write very much coming out with a piece that is far beyond anything I can do after 3 years of practice. Just feels like my stuff will be inferior no matter what I do.


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## Dream Brother (Mar 7, 2009)




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## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 7, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> From what it sounds, like it's worse.


 
Oh god. Must read this on a lazy Sunday for lulz. I went through Chapter five and absolutely DIED. I wish I had found this sooner.  

FUCKING BLONDE PREPZZZZZZZZ. Yup, thasss meh.


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## Tyrael (Mar 8, 2009)

It's not quite FULL LIFE CONSEQUENCES, but damn that's funny. I like how they have a drinking game too.


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## Batman (Mar 10, 2009)

Celebrate with me. That's 5 rejection letters.  I'm starting to build up quite the collection. But this time she gave me a little advice, edited my synopsis for me etc. Good times.


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## Tyrael (Mar 10, 2009)

\m/

I'm expecting to see you topping the bestseller list soon Bats.


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## Batman (Mar 10, 2009)

Here's hoping.  I got some really good advice too. I'm going to go through the book again and up the ante even more, as they say. Kinda sucks though cause I had a really good idea for a FF. If I can work it into next times I might still use it.


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## Tyrael (Mar 10, 2009)

Sounds awesome.

But atm it doesn't look this FF is gonna be going anywhere. We've lost all momentum.


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## Garfield (Mar 10, 2009)

I lost all mine after my "drunken" attempt last time...


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## Tyrael (Mar 10, 2009)

Judging by Anon's writing, drunken writing is the way to go.

But I wouldn't be disheartened by not doing too well last time Adee-hell, I've taken part in all except one, and never been higher than 3rd place. Normally I'm the bottom ranking vet.

In fact, thinking about how ranks would work amongst FFers:

Sel, Anonx, Pintsize, Amnesia, Batman, Boskov and less are (or were in less's case) vets. who come above me 5 times out of 6. 

Then there were posters who looked good but who didn't hang around for very long: cheifrocka, _allismine_, Graysocks, Undercover MC and Dream Brother. Currently Kovacs has entered 3 or 4 contests in a row and has shaped up pretty damn well. I really like your ideas and experimental flair, even if your writing is still fairly raw.

After all of them, are those who have hardly entered at all, yet still their entries have had flair and interesting they've often got points on the board.

Then there is me. I'm that special I get a category to myself.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 10, 2009)

I never really got into the rankings, but then again I never really tried. 

I had to print my novel out, or the part I have so far. And I sat there and printed out 100 pages of double spaced writing so I could go over it when the time comes. 

I think in my case the editing might become more important than the writing.


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## Pan-on (Mar 10, 2009)

drunken writing is great

drunken spelling and grammar, not so much


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## Tyrael (Mar 10, 2009)

Write drunk, edit sober. Truly a winning combination.

But yeah CTK, in writing, if you want to be professional and, dare I say it, good, then editing is the real part that matters. It's a lot harder than writing though.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 10, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Write drunk, edit sober. Truly a winning combination.
> 
> But yeah CTK, in writing, if you want to be professional and, dare I say it, good, then editing is the real part that matters. It's a lot harder than writing though.



Write drunk, edit *stoned.*


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## Chee (Mar 10, 2009)

*buys a case of beer*

Wonder if that will work.


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## Tyrael (Mar 10, 2009)

Alcoholic? No, it's all for my art.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 10, 2009)

Ever notice Alcohol and Art both begin with an A?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 10, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> Ever notice Alcohol and Art both begin with an A?



Hm...and so does Adultery...is this an excuse for me to be a drunken man whore writer later in life?


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## Chee (Mar 10, 2009)

Sounds like fun.


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## Tyrael (Mar 10, 2009)

I see CTK wants to be the next Hemingway.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 10, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> I see CTK wants to be the next Hemingway.



If only I could grow a magnificent mane like his


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## Psallo a Cappella (Mar 10, 2009)

Batman said:


> Celebrate with me. That's 5 rejection letters.  I'm starting to build up quite the collection. But this time she gave me a little advice, edited my synopsis for me etc. Good times.


 
I've had one, and it shell-shocked me into reworking many aspects of my style; not changing them, just working with them. And honestly, I'm gunshy now, it's difficult for me to try again.

Writing stoned produces more than drunk-typing, I humbly say.


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## Tyrael (Mar 10, 2009)

Surely you are not a writer until you have had your first rejection?

Or was that fiftieth rejection?


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## Batman (Mar 10, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> Ever notice Alcohol and Art both begin with an A?



LOL!!!! It's true . . .  The best things in life really are free.



			
				Miss P said:
			
		

> I've had one, and it shell-shocked me into reworking many aspects of my style; not changing them, just working with them. And honestly, I'm gunshy now, it's difficult for me to try again.
> 
> Writing stoned produces more than drunk-typing, I humbly say.


The first one hit me the hardest even though I was expecting it. I haven't really felt any of the others after that. In fact It's starting to be pretty good feedback. But that's because I still have a list of many others to send it to. I'll save getting worried for after I've sent it to all of them.




. . . and writing drunk is overrated. At least in my opinion . Let's just say many years ago - experiment - underwear out the window landing on people's heads. Drunken boxing . . . without the skill.


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## Chee (Mar 10, 2009)

Batman, how'd you submit your novel and where?

I'm curious on how its done.


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## Tyrael (Mar 10, 2009)

Not sure if this is how Bats is doing it, but it sounds like the standard procedure. 

You look up the agents in your area, research each one and write a cover letter for them with a section of your writing and a synopsis. This is my understanding at least. Apparently it's important only to send them to one at a time.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 10, 2009)

I have the framework for 3 pantheons of Gods but I can't for the life of me come up with a Creation Myth.


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## Batman (Mar 10, 2009)

Pretty much. I went and looked up the lists of agents in the . . . Writer's World? . . . I think that's what it's called. Whatever it's called they keep them in the libraries. They release a new lists of those seeking manuscripts annually. So I wrote down all agencies applicable to my genre. Meaning that when the time comes to get this other book published (the draft I just finished a little bit ago), I might have to look for different representation all over again.

I also looked up the publication houses in case I'm unable to find representation. If I can't get an agent, then I'll submit my work directly to the publication houses, but the percentages are lower. There are mixed feelings about whether or not to go directly with an agent or straight to the publication house, but the majority of people say to go towards an agency because if you can get an agent your chances of getting your book published goes up exponentially. So I took that information and wrote a Query Letter. (Which was a pain in the ass) and a Synopsis (An even bigger pain in the ass).

Most of them want you to sent them your query and a synopsis before you send them anything, so it really has to be good. Some agencies want the first chapter (prologues not included) and a few more sample chapters which you think are indicative of your writing style. So for the past two, I've sent large packages of the first 3 chapters, the query letter, and the synopsis. Along with a SASE (self addressed stamped envelope) so they can get back to me with ease. I believe that only the most recent editor read my chapters, and took the time to give me a detailed and helpful response.

It's just a really arduous process because I have to keep changing the date on my query letter. Upgrading the chapters a bit at a time to garner some interest from them. I'm sending it out to one agency at a time, in case they are uninterested and give some critiques, then I can take that and apply it to the body of work as a whole. I have yet to send the entire manuscript to an agency. If they want it, they'll ask. (or so I'm told )

The biggest pain in the ass is all the technical stuff. Formatting. Trying hard not to look like an amateur even though I am. Avoiding unnecessary italics and bold. Making sure it doesn't sound dumb. The next time I send it out I'm thinking about not sending chapter 1, but chapters 2, 3, and something else because my chapter 1 could be construed as a prologue by some. But anyways . . . that's the gist of it from my standpoint.


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## Tyrael (Mar 10, 2009)

I say your creation myth should be that the world was Nothing More Than A Casual Experiment In A Decaying World.


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## Chee (Mar 10, 2009)

Could you try submitting to both a publishing house and an agent at the same time?


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## Batman (Mar 10, 2009)

Chee said:


> Could you try submitting to both a publishing house and an agent at the same time?



Yes. I'd just rather try and get an agent if I can. It will make things much easier on me in the long run.


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## Chee (Mar 10, 2009)

Hope you get published soon, looks like you're busting your ass.

I feel like returning to my old werewolf story, there's a full moon out tonight and its just teasing me to return.


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## Pan-on (Mar 11, 2009)

out of curiosity what is your synopsis? If you dont mind posting it or some sort of short description of your story, im wondering how similar it is to your FF subjects.

not that i want to steal your ideas, just a vague overview of what kind of book would be cool.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 11, 2009)

It's about a dark figure who roams the streets at night fighting crime in a ridiculous costume. Crazy I know.


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## Batman (Mar 11, 2009)

Anonx said:
			
		

> out of curiosity what is your synopsis? If you dont mind posting it or some sort of short description of your story, im wondering how similar it is to your FF subjects.
> 
> not that i want to steal your ideas, just a vague overview of what kind of book would be cool.



We're actually working on a website right now. Once it's put together, I'll point you guys to it.



Lord Yu said:


> It's about a dark figure who roams the streets at night fighting crime in a ridiculous costume. Crazy I know.



Would that I only could. I'd bring back the Onomatopoeia.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 11, 2009)

Batman said:


> We're actually working on a website right now. Once it's put together, I'll point you guys to it.
> 
> 
> 
> Would that I only could. I'd bring back the Onomatopoeia.



I need to work on the wiki thing I made up


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## Batman (Mar 11, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I need to work on the wiki thing I made up



Wiki thing?


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## Einstein (Mar 12, 2009)

Whew. *wipes off cobwebs* Does anyone here even remember I exist? 

Good luck Batman with getting published. I'll cross my fingers for you, I really enjoy(*ed*, since I haven't been in here for so long) reading your work.

I actually came to ask for help, because I've been trying to finish a novel, but I'm afraid that if I plan too much, I'll lose all of my.. spark. However, I feel that if I don't plan I'll have a mess. And what I'm working on now includes quite a bit of action, so I dont want to not plan, but I don't know if I'll be planning too much. And since it looks like a few people in here actually finish what they started, can you tell me how much you planned(especially if you wrote something with action in it)?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 12, 2009)

Batman said:


> Wiki thing?



Yeah I made a wiki for my story stuff and RP characters. 



Einstein said:


> Whew. *wipes off cobwebs* Does anyone here even remember I exist?
> 
> Good luck Batman with getting published. I'll cross my fingers for you, I really enjoy(*ed*, since I haven't been in here for so long) reading your work.
> 
> I actually came to ask for help, because I've been trying to finish a novel, but I'm afraid that if I plan too much, I'll lose all of my.. spark. However, I feel that if I don't plan I'll have a mess. And what I'm working on now includes quite a bit of action, so I dont want to not plan, but I don't know if I'll be planning too much. And since it looks like a few people in here actually finish what they started, can you tell me how much you planned(especially if you wrote something with action in it)?



Holy shit, where have you been?


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## Tyrael (Mar 12, 2009)

Batman said:


> We're actually working on a website right now. Once it's put together, I'll point you guys to it.



Sounds awesome dude.



Einstein said:


> Whew. *wipes off cobwebs* Does anyone here even remember I exist?
> 
> Good luck Batman with getting published. I'll cross my fingers for you, I really enjoy(*ed*, since I haven't been in here for so long) reading your work.
> 
> I actually came to ask for help, because I've been trying to finish a novel, but I'm afraid that if I plan too much, I'll lose all of my.. spark. However, I feel that if I don't plan I'll have a mess. And what I'm working on now includes quite a bit of action, so I dont want to not plan, but I don't know if I'll be planning too much. And since it looks like a few people in here actually finish what they started, can you tell me how much you planned(especially if you wrote something with action in it)?



Good to see you back. As for your question:

I think you should make a fairly broad plan-like a brief synopsis of what happens in each chapter or something. It gives you a loose direction and should inspiration take you, you could always just decide to go a completely different path and abandon the outlien altogether. That's what happened with my only completed draft-it was only when I sat down and arranged the story so I knew what was going to happen and in what order that I could really finish the story. The key is making sure it's flexible.


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## Einstein (Mar 12, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Holy shit, where have you been?


Everywhere and nowhere. Had to go on a little NF hiatus because it was taking up a bit too much of my time. Been focusing on school, and my own computer has no internet connection whatsoever D:

And thanks Tyrael. I'll try to plan enough to know where I'm going, but not what I'm doing


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## Lord Yu (Mar 12, 2009)

I'll stick to my own methods.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 12, 2009)

Batman said:


> I thought you had faded away.  I miss your writing style around here. Nice to see you back.
> 
> As far as planning goes, with the stories I've completed I was a 50% planner. I hit the broad strokes. I knew the ending somewhat, but most of my time was spent on the back story that nobody will ever see. The motivations. The character details. I've got notebooks full of stuff; expositions from characters, profiles, history, rhymes, riddles, etc.
> 
> ...



I love those little things, I am copying them into Word, it takes a while. 

And Einstein actually did a report on one of my stories


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## Batman (Mar 12, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I love those little things, I am copying them into Word, it takes a while.
> 
> And Einstein actually did a report on one of my stories



Oh yeah? One I've read? How did that occur? (Right! Copy them into word. I should have thought of that. )


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 12, 2009)

Batman said:


> Oh yeah? One I've read? How did that occur? (Right! Copy them into word. I should have thought of that. )



Dude, its not that easy, copy them into word they go shit cock, let me send this to you when I am done. 

And actually she read one called Croatoan that was really old, the one I wrote in like three weeks that was about 70 pages


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## Batman (Mar 12, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Dude, its not that easy, copy them into word they go shit cock, let me send this to you when I am done.
> 
> And actually she read one called Croatoan that was really old, the one I wrote in like three weeks that was about 70 pages



Cool. I appreciate it. I never was big on PDF myself.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 12, 2009)

Batman said:


> Cool. I appreciate it. I never was big on PDF myself.


I didn't spend 2 hours trying to steal Adobe Acrobat Pro 9 for nothing!


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## Krisis (Mar 13, 2009)

You're getting published Batman? 

I've always been writing since I was about ten. And have never really progressed further than a few chapters before I decide it's not going anywhere. I have ideas, but I never seem to have the chutzpah to finish it off. I'm excessively critical about my own work, I suspect that plays an enormous part in why I never get further than a few chapters.  ( Help. Help.)

Does anyone have any advice for aspiring writers like me who get stumped or uninspired? Because I'm sure there are tons of us.


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## Tyrael (Mar 13, 2009)

This, and what I said about planning to Einstein on the last page pretty much encapsulates my thoughts on getting writing when you're a novice. Essentially make a rough plan then just go through it, regardless of quality of writing, and just get the thing finished. Editing is when you have to worry about making it good.

Whenever I feel particularly uninspired just sitting down and forcing myself to write can sometimes work, surprisingly. I find that if you a good routine and writing flow going then you'll start to feel more interested in your project again.

Edit-I also agree with you about _Catch-22_.


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## Krisis (Mar 13, 2009)

Do you write full-time Tyrael? (This is off-topic but I see you're in Scotland. Awesome. I love Scotland.)

Great article, and it kind of makes me think I should stop being so hesitant and such a perfectionist and just get it over with. That's always easier said than done, but it's probably the only option. 

Do you ever reach a point where you stop enjoying your own writing though? I usually write to enjoy what I've written, but lately I'm not enjoying it that much (I don't know if that makes any sense )

And yeah, Catch-22 is amazing =P I've read it about 20 times.


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## Tyrael (Mar 13, 2009)

I'm as much of a novice as you are-probably more, since I've not been writing for as long. My enjoyment of my own writing does tend to fluctuate-a lot of the time I'd rather do other things, or have trouble summoning the energy. I think that it's linked directly in with a person's productivity-if you don't have a flow, writing is really hard. If you do, it's good to immerse yourself in.

And Scotland is, indeed, awesome. \m/


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## Krisis (Mar 13, 2009)

I'm so glad to hear someone experiences the same feelings in the writing process. Just makes it feel less onerous to know others suffer for their art too =P I'll definitely try out the tips you've provided me with - tomorrow might be a good day to get reacquainted with freestyle writing. 

Yeah it is an amazing place  I lived there for two years. It's so beautiful. If it's not too personal, whereabouts do you live?

(Hang on, you're a Pratchett fan aren't you?)


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## Tyrael (Mar 13, 2009)

I find it's often good to keep things in perspective-there are a lot of people, unthinkable numbers, who are going through the same thing. The key is in just keeping going I hear.

That's pretty damn observant of you; anyone who has noticed my username has tended to only after awhile.

But I live in ze capital, and I think that I draw inspiration from it-I was thinking about making a thread along those lines not that long ago. Where are you from?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 13, 2009)

Well I also posted some resources for writers that can help you iron out ideas and plan the next story. Someone put the six day mark on it, you should spend about six days planning but I don't think that's good because some of my best stuff was unplanned and just came off the spur. 

I tend to not finish because I want to change the ideas and stuff that I started with. This time it is happening again and I am going to actually sit down and plan out things from the start of the second story and fix the stuff in the first on editing. 

I have made some altering decisions which should change some of the story and make the story flow better. I am going to change a lot to do with the characters and how they are introduced and regarded.


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## Krisis (Mar 13, 2009)

You're absolutely right, of course. I hope I have the perseverance for that. Are you busy writing something and managing to keep it up?

Thanks  I love his books, Pratchett is like manga to me, I devour it to relax. Love Rincewind too, he hasn't appeared in a long time though.

I'm from South Africa. Lots of writing material around here if I can get myself to focus on that and not fantasy or escapism. Edinburgh is such an inspirational place though, and I think many people draw inspiration from their home-cities or towns. I do from mine, though I suspect in a less soothing way than you do  I'd definitely post if you do decide to make a thread.

*@Cardboard Tube Knight* - I have a lot of the same issues. I'm not much of a planner and I rely on simply jumping into it and writing - unfortunately it's the only way that seems to work for me, but I run out of steam pretty quickly.

I'm definitely going to check out your links too.

You're busy with two stories?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 13, 2009)

Krisis said:


> You're absolutely right, of course. I hope I have the perseverance for that. Are you busy writing something and managing to keep it up?
> 
> Thanks  I love his books, Pratchett is like manga to me, I devour it to relax. Love Rincewind too, he hasn't appeared in a long time though.
> 
> ...



I am planning one story and starting it and I am about half way through the first. The first is a direct rewrite of two stories, being put together since their subject matter was directly connected.


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## Einstein (Mar 13, 2009)

CTK, you'd given me a character sheet that I really liked and could really use right now, but my computer crashed and therefore, I no longer have it :/ So I really appreciate those links (though I really preferred what you made yourself, if you still have it I'd love to get it again).


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## Lord Yu (Mar 14, 2009)

I found my plot again and now I have the time to write it.


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## Batman (Mar 14, 2009)

Krisis said:


> You're getting published Batman?


Not yet. >_< 



> I've always been writing since I was about ten. And have never really progressed further than a few chapters before I decide it's not going anywhere. I have ideas, but I never seem to have the chutzpah to finish it off. I'm excessively critical about my own work, I suspect that plays an enormous part in why I never get further than a few chapters.  ( Help. Help.)
> 
> Does anyone have any advice for aspiring writers like me who get stumped or uninspired? Because I'm sure there are tons of us.



Finish the story. Correct it later. And understand that most of your writing occurs when you're uninspired. Inspiration is the icing on your toaster strudel. If it was all icing then . . . it would be awesome. 







On a similar note, I can't seem to get this story to end. I was trying to finish it within a certain amount of words, but once I hit that goal, the story was just really getting good. It's like the snowball's too big to control. The bolts in my monster's neck are turned too far and if I try and stop it I get zapped by electricity.         or something.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 14, 2009)

The story ends when it ends.


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## Batman (Mar 14, 2009)

But I'm impatient, damnit!!


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## Tyrael (Mar 14, 2009)

I say you keep writing that story, it'll end when it needs to.

I have the opposite problem. My current project started as an attempt at a full sized novel, now I'll be lucky to break 70k.


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## Chee (Mar 14, 2009)

Do you guys force yourself to write sometimes? I usually work on 10 pages until I loose interest...xD


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## Tyrael (Mar 14, 2009)

Yeah-if you can't force yourself to write then your writing will never get beyond an idea. As Bats says, most writing is forced.


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## Chee (Mar 14, 2009)

I'm gonna put in an hour, see if I can concentrate for that long. My mind wonders off too much.


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## Tyrael (Mar 14, 2009)

I find if you haven't read for a while it's especially hard to write.


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## Batman (Mar 14, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> I say you keep writing that story, it'll end when it needs to.
> 
> I have the opposite problem. My current project started as an attempt at a full sized novel, now I'll be lucky to break 70k.


Yeah . . .  I just want to read it cause I can't quite remember what happens. I just want to print it out, got to a coffee shop and spend all day just reading it. Maybe soon.


And 70k is a full sized book. 



			
				Ty said:
			
		

> I find if you haven't read for a while it's especially hard to write.


I agree. Though it took me a while to separate my reading from my writing . . . at least I hope my stuff doesn't sound like what I'm reading right now.



			
				Chee said:
			
		

> Do you guys force yourself to write sometimes? I usually work on 10 pages until I loose interest...xD


All the time. The hardest part for me is starting.


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## Tyrael (Mar 14, 2009)

70K is somewhere between a full novel and a very big novella. On average 100k is a pretty good marker, although it varies between genres.

I'd say 200-250 is the average for epic fantasy, which is roughly what I'm writing. Guess I just got to make what little of it that there is top quality.


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## Chee (Mar 14, 2009)

Yea, that's one of the problems I had. I read so many King novels that my writing sounded to much like him.

What's your story about Tyrael? I probably asked a long time ago but my memory isn't too good.


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## Tyrael (Mar 14, 2009)

This is a new one-it sounds pretty bad in synopsis, but here we go:

_The demon Azmodeus is sent to Pandemonium, the neutral land, to "save the world"._

Yeah, that's all there is. I was gonna make it 200kish, but cut most of the plot. At first I thought I was being practical and tightening things, but now I'm worried it was just laziness.


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## Batman (Mar 14, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> 70K is somewhere between a full novel and a very big novella. On average 100k is a pretty good marker, although it varies between genres.
> 
> I'd say 200-250 is the average for epic fantasy, which is roughly what I'm writing. Guess I just got to make what little of it that there is top quality.



A lot of debut novels aren't really that long b/c it's more difficult to get a longer book published for an unknown. They range from 70-100k maybe 110k, at least from what I've read. Here's one opinion from: 



> Novella
> 20-25,000 words
> 80-100 pages
> 10-12 pages per chapter
> ...



Of course people vary on the subject, but not too much. But like you said, if you're going for an Epic story than 70k is on the short side.


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## Tyrael (Mar 14, 2009)

It really can't be called an epic fantasy anymore; although I guess it never really was.

Also my average chapter length is 5 pages, as opposed to 18-20. Yay.


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## Batman (Mar 14, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> It really can't be called an epic fantasy anymore; although I guess it never really was.
> 
> Also my average chapter length is 5 pages, as opposed to 18-20. Yay.



5 actual pages or 5 pages in word?


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## Tyrael (Mar 14, 2009)

Average length 1750-2000 wordsish. I think.


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## Batman (Mar 14, 2009)

I wouldn't worry about it. Chapter length is such a pot luck.


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## Tyrael (Mar 14, 2009)

I've learned just to embrace it to be honest. My pacing is still bad, I just no longer care.


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## Batman (Mar 14, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> I've learned just to embrace it to be honest. My pacing is still bad, I just no longer care.



That's the spirit. Seriously. Sometimes we over analyze stuff and care way too much about stuff that doesn't matter. I know I'm guilty of that.


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## Tyrael (Mar 14, 2009)

I think it's less that it doesn't matter, and more that I am presuming, possibly foolishly, I will be able to iron out any problems later. That said, the fact I cut out so much story is the only reason it really is a problem.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 15, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> I think it's less that it doesn't matter, and more that I am presuming, possibly foolishly, I will be able to iron out any problems later. That said, the fact I cut out so much story is the only reason it really is a problem.



I am not really adhering to that I don't think (the chapters). But I think that when I edit I might cut my chapters down to like six or seven and then just break the scenes up inside there. 

It seems as I think back, there will be some stuff I can cut out completely. When I edit I plan to look at that and then even try and see if I have scenes that convey information that is already said somewhere else, I could get rid of all those too.


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## Nicodemus (Mar 15, 2009)

I just re read what used to be my favorite part of my story, and realised it was terrible. Now I'm re writing it so it avtually makes sense.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 15, 2009)

I am working on looking over my story to see where to go next, but I had fun writing one scene and every one hates it. I am also looking at how to format the story, do you guys think there should be a blank between chapters, or should I just start the chapter right on the same page the last ends.


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## Nicodemus (Mar 15, 2009)

I advise the latter, it's just neater overall.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 15, 2009)

The Observer said:


> I advise the latter, it's just neater overall.



Yeah that's what I was thinking. After I finish a chapter, I do the whole rest of the page blank and then start the next. 

Of course I have special formatting for when I send it off to be looked over.


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## Tyrael (Mar 15, 2009)

I think formatting concerns like that should be the last thing you need worry about. When it's just you and the writing, why take time of formatting it?


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## Lord Yu (Mar 15, 2009)

I've been trying to inject some cosmic horror into my brainstorming as of late. There is already a certain aspect of it in my story.


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## Tyrael (Mar 15, 2009)

Fantasy and horror have thin boundaries between them, it's good to have elements of it in your stuff.


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## Batman (Mar 17, 2009)

♫ Neverending Storrryyyyyyyyy!! ♪   :amazed <--(for lack of a singing icon)


This is what I get for not planning things out. I'd give myself one more week and see if things pan out, but I'm thinking I might have to add another section.


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## Tyrael (Mar 17, 2009)

I think you and I are very different types of writers Bats.

Not necessarily a bad thing, but we both have our problems.


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## Batman (Mar 17, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> I think you and I are very different types of writers Bats.
> 
> Not necessarily a bad thing, but we both have our problems.



Aye that's true. I'm getting to the point where I have to do something just about everyday or I don't feel fulfilled. But I'm starting to write a little less everyday too. I think I'm improving by taking the shorter consistency approach.


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## Tyrael (Mar 17, 2009)

If you can achieve consistency then you've all but won the battle-the rest is just stamina. Oh, and having a good story helps I hear. I reckon whoever said that, though, was probably bluffing. Or maybe playing mind games. 

Someone read about a quarter of my story and said they really enjoyed it, found it very engaging: I had trouble believing them.


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## Batman (Mar 17, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> If you can achieve consistency then you've all but won the battle-the rest is just stamina. *Oh, and having a good story helps I hear. I reckon whoever said that, though, was probably bluffing. Or maybe playing mind games.*


 I feel that way too sometimes. [*itt*: all the time]



> Someone read about a quarter of my story and said they really enjoyed it, found it very engaging: I had trouble believing them.


You should believe them. Hell, I go overboard and turn peoples insults into compliments.

"I can't believe I wasted two days reading that crap!"

becomes:

"Wow! I can't believe I spent _two . . . whole . . . days_ reading that on my crapper! I've never wanted to stop pooping."

See? Win - Win.


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## Tyrael (Mar 17, 2009)

Selective hearing can be a useful thing indeed. And yes, I have lost weight, thanks for noticing.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 20, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> If you can achieve consistency then you've all but won the battle-the rest is just stamina. Oh, and having a good story helps I hear. I reckon whoever said that, though, was probably bluffing. Or maybe playing mind games.
> 
> Someone read about a quarter of my story and said they really enjoyed it, found it very engaging: I had trouble believing them.



Consistency is a bitch when you're writing a good mindfuck.


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## Tyrael (Mar 20, 2009)

Consistency as in the amount to write X amount of words every day.


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## Chee (Mar 20, 2009)

GREAT NEWS! Wrote for a whole hour yesterday, met my goal. Now, for two hours. 

:3


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## Tyrael (Mar 20, 2009)

Awesome, do you know the word count or was it by hand?


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## Chee (Mar 20, 2009)

It was by hand. Roughly 30 pages.

After this second draft I'll be transferring it to computer for the third draft and editting. Working it by hand lets me work on it during school and I need all the time in the world to get it going.


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## Tyrael (Mar 20, 2009)

30 pages in an hour is pretty damn impressive. I'm writing by hand as well on one of my projects but I'm lucky if I can squeeze out a page per hour.


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## Chee (Mar 20, 2009)

My writing is pretty large and there's lots of gaps because of the format. Roughly 10 pages if it was novel format and my handwriting was smaller.


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## Tyrael (Mar 20, 2009)

What's the story about?


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## Chee (Mar 20, 2009)

Screenplay format for Wright brothers. I intend to sale it.


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## Tyrael (Mar 20, 2009)

Sounds like an interesting project, but I would imagine getting it sold is hard as hell. Good luck wi' that.


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## Chee (Mar 20, 2009)

Yea, I have no idea how I'm gonna sell it. I'll probably research how Milk got sold and try and do it that way, but really, I dunno how to sell a screenplay.

I'll be working on a novel after this third draft.


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## Tyrael (Mar 20, 2009)

I wouldn't expect to be able to make an impact until you have made some contacts and then gained experience related to the subject that looks good on the CV.


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## Chee (Mar 20, 2009)

I researched some agents that I'll probably send an query too, see if I get any response from there.

I'll also try film festivals if that doesn't work because I hear its filled to the rim with production people.

...unless my script sucks balls. But I hope it ain't.


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## Tyrael (Mar 20, 2009)

Sounds like you're doing a fair bit. If it's anything like the publishing industry, getting your name out there is the most important thing.

I'm still undecided how far I should take this writing lark.


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## Chee (Mar 20, 2009)

After some research, sounds exactly like the novel industry. Cover letters, inquiries, manuscript, all the same thing. Just different companies and agents. 

And I hope this screenplay will get my name out there, after that it should be rather smooth.


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## Tyrael (Mar 20, 2009)

If only it were as easy as that. 

But I feel like I'm being a bit too down-beat, after all you have the ambition, so the sky's the limit.


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## Chee (Mar 20, 2009)

Yea, exactly. 

I'm expecting lots of rejections.


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## Tyrael (Mar 20, 2009)

It's more making your successful even once you have been accepted. Self publicising and branding both sound ridiculously hard and tireless and even then there's a 9/10 chance that you'll fall on your face no matter how hard you work or how good your product is. Keeping yourself relevant is next up.


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## Chee (Mar 20, 2009)

Which is why I'm going to work on a novel while the screenplay simmers.

I'm gonna use that advice where you don't read it for a long time and then edit it.


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## Lord Yu (Mar 20, 2009)

I'm relying on the marketability of my entire being for my success. I'm black man with a radio voice an afro and dignified sounding name that might sell books.


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## Batman (Mar 21, 2009)

So it's 4:02 am. Thankfully I don't have shit to do tomorrow. But I just got done writing a scene which might come across as random unintelligible bullshit. I'm curious how it's going to go during the re-read, (I haven't re-read and of this yet) and am wondering if it was a wise thing to do. Oh well only time will tell.

Also I'm starting to get a bit outlandish in this one. Not just in the subject matter but in the execution. In the past when I was writing something of this nature I thought it might come across as masturbatory -- self indulgent, pretentious crap. But now it's probably just leaning towards weird . . . and a little bit sexy.


Also I'm a little terrified to write the next scene tomorrow. I don't know if I can do it justice.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 21, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm relying on the marketability of my entire being for my success. I'm black man with a radio voice an afro and dignified sounding name that might sell books.



I'm going to pick up a gimmick and some kind of flashy show name. Something like _Chet Awesomeword _or _Ian Writemore._

That's marketability you can't just have...
 


Batman said:


> So it's 4:02 am. Thankfully I don't have shit to do tomorrow. But I just got done writing a scene which might come across as random unintelligible bullshit. I'm curious how it's going to go during the re-read, (I haven't re-read and of this yet) and am wondering if it was a wise thing to do. Oh well only time will tell.
> 
> Also I'm starting to get a bit outlandish in this one. Not just in the subject matter but in the execution. In the past when I was writing something of this nature I thought it might come across as masturbatory -- self indulgent, pretentious crap. But now it's probably just leaning towards weird . . . and a little bit sexy.
> 
> ...




Sexy in the literal sense? Yeah it worries me when things go that way too. 

Here is the important thing for us to remember. Just write this in the draft and edit the Hell out of it later. As we write, we can tell when something is going to take a LOT of editing.


----------



## Lord Yu (Mar 23, 2009)

Gentlemen, Ladies and He-She's, I believe I have touched upon another bizarre fetish. Vore, just when I thought things couldn't get any weirder.


----------



## speedstar (Mar 23, 2009)

'Anime of the Month' Nomination thread

Just a little something I've recently written. Check it out.


----------



## Batman (Mar 23, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> Gentlemen, Ladies and He-She's, I believe I have touched upon another bizarre fetish. Vore, just when I thought things couldn't get any weirder.



I'm afraid to ask but . . . what is Vore??


----------



## Tyrael (Mar 23, 2009)

Batman said:


> I'm afraid to ask but . . . what is Vore??



And Pandora's Box is opened.


----------



## Lord Yu (Mar 23, 2009)

Batman said:


> I'm afraid to ask but . . . what is Vore??



I'm gonna be kind today and not tell you that its the fetish where you dream about being eaten...dammit.


----------



## speedstar (Mar 23, 2009)

That's some sick shit. Do tell more.


----------



## Tyrael (Mar 23, 2009)

That's not as bad as I was expecting actually.


----------



## Lord Yu (Mar 23, 2009)

The porn might be worse than I make it sound. Pretty weird shit.


----------



## speedstar (Mar 23, 2009)

Its a dream where you want to be eaten in a porno? Are we talking about the same type of being eaten?


----------



## Tyrael (Mar 23, 2009)

Cannabalised is what I got.


----------



## Lord Yu (Mar 23, 2009)

It usually involves animals.


But in all seriousness. What I had in mind ran closer to more run of the mill vampirism. So all in all a disappointment.

Though other new ideas are brewing...


----------



## Chee (Mar 23, 2009)

Lord Yu...you are indeed a strange man.


----------



## Lord Yu (Mar 23, 2009)

You just realize this?


----------



## Batman (Mar 24, 2009)

Hmmm . . . I was expecting something with vocal chords and slime. In a sense I suppose I was right.


----------



## Lord Yu (Mar 24, 2009)

Jury's still out on tentacle jokes.


----------



## Tyrael (Mar 25, 2009)

Turns out I don't enjoy writing violent action scenes. They are really, really hard work and this one is pretty unpleasant. Not sure if I am just tired of the project as a whole though.


----------



## Lord Yu (Mar 25, 2009)

I revel in violence. But I also prefer quick and brutal.


----------



## Tyrael (Mar 25, 2009)

I revel in the idea of violence, but the execution makes me blanch. Psychological violence ain't as bad, although it does make you look at people funny for a while afterwords.


----------



## Lord Yu (Mar 25, 2009)

I have a bunch of pictures of ruined corpses on my computer so I can more accurately describe violence.


----------



## Tyrael (Mar 25, 2009)

I think that you don't need to really spend much time describing it-the reader tends to be very good at filling in the gaps themselves. You just need to give a brief description and have the chars. react in a very horrified way and your home and dry. That said, I'm not really going out my way to make this brutal, more this scene is depicting more brutality than I expected.


----------



## Lord Yu (Mar 25, 2009)

But I like my corpse pics.


----------



## Tyrael (Mar 25, 2009)

I was about to make a joke about taking that quote out of context, but it sounds pretty much the same in context.


----------



## Chee (Mar 26, 2009)

Just finished my second draft. Biggest accomplishment for me since I never finished the first draft of my other work.

Gonna start research and formatting now.


----------



## Batman (Mar 30, 2009)

I found an old massive failure on my computer. A 100 page mess, left unfinished and abandoned. Boring as hell. Coupled with 80 some odd pages of back story that I'll never ever use.  Generic Fantasy Crap.

There's all kinds of unfinished crap on my pc, but nothing larger than that.


EDIT: wait I take that back, this other story I was thinking of is bigger but it's only a semi-failure. Better written but still not that interesting.

EDIT pt. 2: Jesus Christ there's a bunch of shit on here! Look at this one. :S

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Cigam​
> On Monday . . .
> The office-school was a huge success. Allowing both the culmination of young minds - should they be allowed to attend - and the simultaneous punctuality of income fishing. The parents that worked there could allow their children to attend, if their children were allowed. Sometimes the children of certain workers had to wait outside, many times in the rain, for they all knew how much the boss-principle loved rain. For all manner of reasons. The chief being that they were too ugly. The boss-principle despised ugly children.
> ?Look at that one he?s got a wart the size of a pinhead.?
> ...







What the hell was I smoking when I wrote that?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 30, 2009)

I have a 200 page Fantasy Epic that I wrote at the beginning of High school, it had everything wrong you could have in a story including thinly veiled Mary Sues and sophomoric sexual humor.


----------



## Batman (Mar 30, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I have a 200 page Fantasy Epic that I wrote at the beginning of High school, it had everything wrong you could have in a story including thinly veiled Mary Sues and sophomoric sexual humor.



Well they say we learn more from failures than successes. I suppose we're a couple of grad students now.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 30, 2009)

Batman said:


> Well they say we learn more from failures than successes. I suppose we're a couple of grad students now.



If that was the case I'd be the smartest man alive.


----------



## Batman (Mar 30, 2009)

Hehehe _'to err is human.'_ They must have been talking about a writer.

I'm going to categorize this stuff, make some hard copies of my unfinished piles of crap. Seems like a fun Saturday afternoon project, though the price of ink would be through the roof. I really need to get a good laser printer.


----------



## neko-sennin (Mar 30, 2009)

Batman said:


> Hehehe _'to err is human.'_ They must have been talking about a writer.
> 
> I'm going to categorize this stuff, make some hard copies of my unfinished piles of crap. Seems like a fun Saturday afternoon project, though the price of ink would be through the roof. I really need to get a good laser printer.



That's not such a bad idea. The trunk behind my chair contains entire binders of crap I wrote from middle school thru college that will never see the light of day. And scribbled in various colors of ink are two of my oldest friends' (and most ruthless critics') margin notes detailing every little thing that is wrong with them. Even a brief look through these notes is a quick cure for delusions of grandeur. 

Though I also hang on to these old manuscripts to remind myself just how far I've come, and keep an A-list of sci-fi/fantasy/horror's finest openly displayed on the shelf to remind me just how far I have yet to go. As well as for my own reading enjoyment, of course.


----------



## Batman (Mar 30, 2009)

^ Man you're not kidding about the binders full of stuff. Though for me it's spiral notebooks. I've got so many spiral notebooks full of stories and bad poems, drawings and notes and maybe even a made up language that never went anywhere. It is nice to see how far I've come and quite humbling to see where I used to be.

I should make a list of authors I've yet to (and want to) read and authors I want to read more of. The more I get done the more I feel like I have to do.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 30, 2009)

Batman said:


> ^ Man you're not kidding about the binders full of stuff. Though for me it's spiral notebooks. I've got so many spiral notebooks full of stories and bad poems, drawings and notes and maybe even a made up language that never went anywhere. It is nice to see how far I've come and quite humbling to see where I used to be.
> 
> I should make a list of authors I've yet to (and want to) read and authors I want to read more of. The more I get done the more I feel like I have to do.



I keep spirals and folders of notes and drawings, most of it is horrible story stuff I will never use.


----------



## Batman (Mar 31, 2009)

I'm starting to think that the ending is a myth. 1 month to write the first 80%, nearly a month on this last leg. Yeesh.  I've never been so challenged.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 31, 2009)

Batman said:


> I'm starting to think that the ending is a myth. 1 month to write the first 80%, nearly a month on this last leg. Yeesh.  I've never been so challenged.



I have to write the start of three stories by tomorrow night to be turned in for my creative writing class...I just need three paragraphs.


----------



## Batman (Mar 31, 2009)

Beginnings are so much easier. >_< What lesson is buried under that busy work?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 31, 2009)

Batman said:


> Beginnings are so much easier. >_< What lesson is buried under that busy work?



For some reason I just can't do them right now, last resort I will take some of my old failures and cut them back down to three paragraphs and turn them in.


----------



## Batman (Mar 31, 2009)

That's what I'd do if I wasn't feeling it. I'd chop em up and entertain myself with something else.

Me, I started watching Dexter in between my battle with this work. And It's kind of awesome.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Mar 31, 2009)

Batman said:


> That's what I'd do if I wasn't feeling it. I'd chop em up and entertain myself with something else.
> 
> Me, I started watching Dexter in between my battle with this work. And It's kind of awesome.



I hear the books are better with Dexter. 

I was going to say, the thing is that the subject matter of my stories might not be the kind of thing I want to read out loud in class. Not sure why, but its hard for me to read someone else's work...mine would be harder.


----------



## Lord Yu (Mar 31, 2009)

My inspiration is flowing on paper. My farts smell like peanut butter. Connection??


----------



## Batman (Apr 1, 2009)

Huh . . . so I'm done.  Please don't let me finishing on April 1st be some kind of cruel irony.


----------



## Tyrael (Apr 1, 2009)

Fini'd your first draft? I really wish I could write with your discipline. Fucking university has killed my writing again.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 1, 2009)

I need to REALLY get working today when I have the chance. I spent 12 hours moving yesterday


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 1, 2009)

I'm on a week break from classes, and even though I'm working, I shift-lead, so I don't do nearly as much as I used to as a grunt.  Still, I'm actually hooked on what this board is about [Naruto] right now, instead of writing. How terrible.


----------



## Tyrael (Apr 1, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I need to REALLY get working today when I have the chance. I spent 12 hours moving yesterday



Ouch dude.  wouldn't feel guilty if you've been tied up with the move. I know such times can be really stressful.



Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> I'm on a week break from classes, and even though I'm working, I shift-lead, so I don't do nearly as much as I used to as a grunt.  Still, I'm actually hooked on what this board is about [Naruto] right now, instead of writing. How terrible.



You mean you're spending time you feel you should be writing on reading/watching Naruto?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 1, 2009)

I really need to get on the ball with school and shit too. I have had some trouble understand that, but that moved really sucked.


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 1, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> You mean you're spending time you feel you should be writing on reading/watching Naruto?


 
Mostly lingering around the Telegrams, though I've posted maybe twice; for as much as I love to argue, it's becoming frightening.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 1, 2009)

Arguing in Telegrams is pretty pointless for me--I can't stand to have to deal with that many Hinata fans, I might choke someone.


----------



## Tyrael (Apr 1, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Mostly lingering around the Telegrams, though I've posted maybe twice; for as much as I love to argue, it's becoming frightening.



Essentially what CTK said, but extending to any type of fans, be they of Hinata, Sasuke, Itachi, Naruto, etc...

I've resolved, more and more, not to bother arguing over the 'net. An exercise in futility if there ever was one.


----------



## Batman (Apr 1, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Fini'd your first draft? I really wish I could write with your discipline. Fucking university has killed my writing again.


Writing and attending University made me want to kill kittens.  Ugly kittens, mind, but kittens nonetheless.

and yeah the first draft. It's way too long. But I hope it's good. I really just want to go somewhere and order a cup of tea and read it all day.




> Arguing in Telegrams is pretty pointless for me--I can't stand to have to deal with that many Hinata fans, I might choke someone.


Arguing over the internet makes me want to kill kittens.  Kittens that look like Rosie O'Donnell, but kittens nonetheless.

I know better than to get into it with anyone but every now and again I slip up and get dragged down into a narrow-minded illogical diatribe.

Now I diffuse all arguments with "witty" quips for my own amusement.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 1, 2009)

Batman said:


> Writing and attending University made me want to kill kittens.  Ugly kittens, mind, but kittens nonetheless.
> 
> and yeah the first draft. It's way too long. But I hope it's good. I really just want to go somewhere and order a cup of tea and read it all day.
> 
> ...



Yeah that is a trouble, I tend to hate pairing arguments, I will argue about real stuff, but not the manga as much. What makes me so mad about the Hinata pairing really is that people place so much importance on it when its at the most a minuscule thing.


----------



## Tyrael (Apr 1, 2009)

Batman said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Be honest: you just want to kill kittens.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah that is a trouble, I tend to hate pairing arguments, I will argue about real stuff, but not the manga as much. What makes me so mad about the Hinata pairing really is that people place so much importance on it when its at the most a minuscule thing.



OMG u h8r. 3k


----------



## Batman (Apr 1, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah that is a trouble, I tend to hate pairing arguments, I will argue about real stuff, but not the manga as much. What makes me so mad about the Hinata pairing really is that people place so much importance on it when its at the most a minuscule thing.



It's far too important to some people, but people love to speculate obsess about "romance".



			
				Ty said:
			
		

> Be honest: you just want to kill kittens.


 Ugly kittens.


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 1, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah that is a trouble, I tend to hate pairing arguments, I will argue about real stuff, but not the manga as much. What makes me so mad about the Hinata pairing really is that people place so much importance on it when its at the most a minuscule thing.


 
Haha, I've come to realize I take some of the pairing arguing too seriously, but it's difficult for me to stop because I just enjoy arguing. I came to the forum for Naruto, and I knew what I liked, and I crash-landed in the heart of the pairing cesspool. So a little shard of my newb-heart draws me to hanging out in there; after talking to people outside of the pairings, I relate well to them because of similar interests. Some are vastly different from what they portray in the pairing-pool.

So, I know I take it a little more seriously than I would like, than I should, but it's difficult to quit. =/

On a writing-relative note, however, I put up a short story on FictionPress that I wrote for a unit final. I loathed everything about it, almost, but I can't scrap it. Tends to make me feel like an angst-whore injected with a tad of my experiences [I've been in that mode because of a soon-approaching graduation]. Hate and love are duking it out, here.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 1, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Haha, I've come to realize I take some of the pairing arguing too seriously, but it's difficult for me to stop because I just enjoy arguing. I came to the forum for Naruto, and I knew what I liked, and I crash-landed in the heart of the pairing cesspool. So a little shard of my newb-heart draws me to hanging out in there; after talking to people outside of the pairings, I relate well to them because of similar interests. Some are vastly different from what they portray in the pairing-pool.
> 
> So, I know I take it a little more seriously than I would like, than I should, but it's difficult to quit. =/
> 
> On a writing-relative note, however, I put up a short story on FictionPress that I wrote for a unit final. I loathed everything about it, almost, but I can't scrap it. Tends to make me feel like an angst-whore injected with a tad of my experiences [I've been in that mode because of a soon-approaching graduation]. Hate and love are duking it out, here.



Problem is they're part of the manga that is nearly negligible, Its nothing worth fighting over.


----------



## Batman (Apr 2, 2009)

I really want to write something in the first person, but I want to make sure I can pull it off. Any of you got any experience with that perspective?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 2, 2009)

Batman said:


> I really want to write something in the first person, but I want to make sure I can pull it off. Any of you got any experience with that perspective?



I used to write in it from time to time, it can be hard and more rewarding.


----------



## Batman (Apr 2, 2009)

I've heard it's the most difficult tense to write convincingly in for long stretches. Almost like being an actor. You ever had any stumbles while working with it?


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 2, 2009)

Batman said:


> I've heard it's the most difficult tense to write convincingly in for long stretches. Almost like being an actor. You ever had any stumbles while working with it?


 
When I begin, I'm tempted to stick I everywhere to remind not only the reader, but myself, what perspective it is, because it isn't my usual. Unless you know you can use "I" well . . . use it sparingly instead.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 2, 2009)

Batman said:


> I've heard it's the most difficult tense to write convincingly in for long stretches. Almost like being an actor. You ever had any stumbles while working with it?



Well the most difficult would be second  

I did a whole story in First, actually two, and one of them I was particularly proud of. Best tip I can give for long term first is know your character. The last two books I have been looking at were first.

And that's probably the best advice, read first person stuff, see how they make it work. But take note of the things you see them do and take note of consistency. 

Does this character speak a certain way? 

Do they reference pop culture or old movies? 

Is there a common type of comparison they make? 

Try to avoid, _I thought_ or _thinking to myself_, and just say it in the text. _Was Malrin already off the ship? _If its in the text, the character obviously is already thinking it and we don't need to be told. Its little things like that you can take care of in editing--sort of redundancy things. 

I actually like First Person for reading, when I write its very hard for me to do though.


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 2, 2009)

No wayyy, second is much easier than first.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 2, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Try to avoid, _I thought_ or _thinking to myself_, and just say it in the text. _Was Malrin already off the ship? _If its in the text, the character obviously is already thinking it and we don't need to be told. Its little things like that you can take care of in editing--sort of redundancy things.



Not necessarily. In first person perspective, there is a certain split, in scene thought and in narration thought.

_It's soft. I thought as I lifted the bun off the tray. _


See how that works?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 2, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> Not necessarily. In first person perspective, there is a certain split, in scene thought and in narration thought.
> 
> _It's soft. I thought as I lifted the bun off the tray. _
> 
> ...



_The bun was soft as I lifted it off the tray. _

Works just as fine and cuts down on the word economy.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 2, 2009)

It was a poor example. I'll admit. But trust me. There are moments where it fits.


----------



## Chee (Apr 2, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> Not necessarily. In first person perspective, there is a certain split, in scene thought and in narration thought.
> 
> _It's soft. I thought as I lifted the bun off the tray. _
> 
> ...



Seems choppy with the period. A comma would make it smoother. 

I agree with CTK though. That method seems a lot less obvious.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 2, 2009)

It was an example I pulled out of my ass. I have much better examples in my story.


----------



## Tyrael (Apr 2, 2009)

I think Yu's right, just picked a horrible example.
_
It's soft, I thought, as I lifted the bun off the tray._

That seems the best option of the three-CTK's example made the piece of information sound redundant.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 2, 2009)

This is the last time I make up an example off the top of my head.


----------



## Tyrael (Apr 2, 2009)

Vowing to never make another example off of the top of your head would be like a beaver vowing never to eat marshmallows again.


----------



## Chee (Apr 2, 2009)

Yu: Did you write that in your sig? I love it.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 2, 2009)

I wish I had marshmallows.

@chee: Yes I did.


----------



## Tyrael (Apr 2, 2009)

I'm still not sure why people say 1st is harder than 3rd-a bit of adjusting is required, but there is not as big a difference as people think. Possibly that there is assumption made that 1st person=stream of consciousness.

Edit-Either that or I am doing it wrong. Here's a snippet:



> The jungles of Lustria crackle in the heat. Everything is wet; leaves, ground, plants all seemed to be covered a thin sheen of precipitation. The vegetation is always swaying beneath the weight of water and as it is struck by the rain cascading to the ground. A lizard will scuttle occasionally across the ground, disturbing the humus underfoot, and insects fill the air with activity. Nothing can be heard over the permanent _sss _of rain, save for the odd reptilian croak or animalistic roar.
> 
> How long have I wondered  here? Too long. Far too has it been since the civilised tongue was spoken to me, or have I felt the comforts of society. I am not sure if I can ever return now. All that my life has been for months-over a year perhaps?-has been this. Time has no meaning. A life without the constant toil for survival no longer seems real.
> 
> ...


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 2, 2009)

I find first easier than third. I find the words flow more freely when I'm writing from first.


----------



## Batman (Apr 2, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:
			
		

> When I begin, I'm tempted to stick I everywhere to remind not only the reader, but myself, what perspective it is, because it isn't my usual. Unless you know you can use "I" well . . . use it sparingly instead.


 __ see. ___ have to remember that. 

amidoinitrite?? 



			
				CTK said:
			
		

> Well the most difficult would be second
> 
> I did a whole story in First, actually two, and one of them I was particularly proud of. Best tip I can give for long term first is *know your character*. The last two books I have been looking at were first.
> 
> ...



I'm with Miss P. Second Person seems way easier becaues the voice doesn't have to be as convincing. And not knowing the character well is what I'm afraid of.

I read a few books in first person, but not enough. I'm afraid it will force me to put a curb on style -- but that might be a good thing.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 2, 2009)

I tend to treat 1st person like a conversation. Not like I'm just telling story but like I'm talking to a person with complete honesty.


----------



## Batman (Apr 2, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I tend to treat 1st person like a conversation. Not like I'm just telling story but like I'm talking to a person with complete honesty.



That's a really nice way of putting it. 

I just don't want it to ring false.


----------



## Tyrael (Apr 2, 2009)

I think the best thing people can do is treat the two perspectives the same. Small changes will be made, obviously, but nothing major. I write 1st the same way I write 3rd.

Bats and Yu seem to have very similar looks avs.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 2, 2009)

I've written alot in the first person. it's my most comfortable perspective.


----------



## Batman (Apr 2, 2009)

1st seems challenging. I want to get into the mind of character in depth.



			
				Ty said:
			
		

> Bats and Yu seem to have very similar looks avys.



. . . true


----------



## Tyrael (Apr 2, 2009)

Batman said:


> I've written alot in the first person. it's my most comfortable perspective.



It's pretty much all about practice; I think that sums it up.



Lord Yu said:


> 1st seems challenging. I want to get into the mind of character in depth.
> 
> . . . true



Don't necessarily get caught up in your main though-I would imagine that would be a big pitfall. Secondary characters are harder to represent in 1st I would imagine.

Wait, something seems wrong with this post...


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 2, 2009)

Batman's quote is on my quote and vice versa.


----------



## Batman (Apr 2, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Wait, something seems wrong with this post...



We're in the matrix. We be all Agent Smith.


----------



## Batman (Apr 2, 2009)

There is no such thing as a coincidence!!


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 2, 2009)

Anyway, I got my plot started.


----------



## Batman (Apr 2, 2009)

Which plot?


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 2, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> Not necessarily. In first person perspective, there is a certain split, in scene thought and in narration thought.
> 
> _It's soft. I thought as I lifted the bun off the tray. _
> 
> See how that works?


 
I know what you mean, though not necessarily this case. It's stylistic.



Batman said:


> __ see. ___ have to remember that.
> 
> amidoinitrite??


 
Lulz, smart-alec. 
I just hate "I".



> I'm with Miss P. Second Person seems way easier becaues the voice doesn't have to be as convincing. And not knowing the character well is what I'm afraid of.
> 
> I read a few books in first person, but not enough. I'm afraid it will force me to put a curb on style -- but that might be a good thing.


 
I just loathe first person so much; third limited is my favorite, in present tense.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 2, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> I think Yu's right, just picked a horrible example.
> _
> It's soft, I thought, as I lifted the bun off the tray._
> 
> That seems the best option of the three-CTK's example made the piece of information sound redundant.



Because its kind of redundant information...



Lord Yu said:


> This is the last time I make up an example off the top of my head.



Nice to know 



Batman said:


> __ see. ___ have to remember that.
> 
> amidoinitrite??
> 
> ...



The Second Person thing was a joke...


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 2, 2009)

1st person narrative is not always thought so it's not redundant. Sometimes even never.

Case in point.


----------



## Batman (Apr 2, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The Second Person thing was a joke...



Ohhhhhhhhhh . . . . .


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## Lord Yu (Apr 3, 2009)

Now, I have to name sections of a city. Hmm symbolic names...


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## Stalin (Apr 3, 2009)

I don't know if I want to be a novelist but I am working on this story of mine. I just hope that when I'm done with it, it won't be bad.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 5, 2009)

I just discovered a new unintended reference within my story. Hilarious and appropriate somehow.


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## Sky is Over (Apr 10, 2009)

Excuse me, but do any of you know any famous writers that were greatly sucessful with their first publication?


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## Tyrael (Apr 10, 2009)

Plenty, but don't expect it to happen to you. Most writers have to work ridiculously hard to get well recognised, and even then most of them never will. I keep reading that in the writing world there is no such thing as an overnight success. It's a sad fact, kind of frustrating, but something you have to accept.

Still, there is always the exception. I don't really mean to discourage you, as that was very negative.


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## neko-sennin (Apr 10, 2009)

Sky is Over said:


> Excuse me, but do any of you know any famous writers that were greatly successful with their first publication?



Just to add to Tyrael's point, most instances of "overnight" success are often either the result of sheer dumb luck on one project, or someone who just happens to write something relevant or that someone realizes will move a lot of merch at that particular moment, or sometimes just one brilliant moment in time that a writer is never able to repeat. In any of the above cases, usually unfortunate: in the first case, the writer is never heard from again; in the second, even the book itself may fade into obscurity, even if it sold like hotcakes at first; in the final case, it typically means that writer really only had one book in them.

The point I think Tyrael was trying to make is that developing discipline and refining one's vision are more likely to lead to _long-term_ success once a writer finally _does_ have an "in" in the game.


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## Tyrael (Apr 10, 2009)

^Pretty much what I was trying to say.


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## Batman (Apr 10, 2009)

But dumb luck sure doesn't hurt either.


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## Chee (Apr 11, 2009)

I just got an idea for a novel but I'm too busy to work on it right now. Engh.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 11, 2009)

Sky is Over said:


> Excuse me, but do any of you know any famous writers that were greatly sucessful with their first publication?



Hunter S. Thompson
Lewis Carrol


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## Tyrael (Apr 11, 2009)

Since Hunter S Thomson was a very successful and well known journalist by the time he released the novels, you can't suggest that was his first publication.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 11, 2009)

I was reading something saying that you shouldn't pull punches in writing, like you should just go for broke and the like...I don't know if I can agree with that at all. I mean the idea of there being build up is usually really a good thing.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 11, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Since Hunter S Thomson was a very successful and well known journalist by the time he released the novels, you can't suggest that was his first publication.



I knew that already,  I was naming the first things that came to mind.

Actually, I should have said JK Rowling.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 11, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I was reading something saying that you shouldn't pull punches in writing, like you should just go for broke and the like...I don't know if I can agree with that at all. I mean the idea of there being build up is usually really a good thing.



I would say the biggest mistake an amateur could make is doing too much at one time. Restraint is a virtue. Like me and dream sequences or Stephanie Meyer and her masturbating over Edward.


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## Tyrael (Apr 11, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I was reading something saying that you shouldn't pull punches in writing, like you should just go for broke and the like...I don't know if I can agree with that at all. I mean the idea of there being build up is usually really a good thing.



That could mean any number of things.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 12, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I would say the biggest mistake an amateur could make is doing too much at one time. Restraint is a virtue. Like me and dream sequences or Stephanie Meyer and her masturbating over Edward.


 
That is the one of the things I constantly work on; I have a million ideas and I want them all executed in one novel, but then it distracts the points of view and pulls the plot in too many directions. Usually the reason I have to let things end, because I lose focus.

But Ty is right; you should not limit yourself completely in any aspect.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 12, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> That could mean any number of things.



What they meant was that you shouldn't wait until later to use good ideas. People try and save it up for the perfect thing and use it but sometimes the idea gets reworked and moved back so far it never happens. 

Really I think they meant don't wait until later works. Because in a book everything can't just happen up front.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 12, 2009)

I have the good fortune of having a grand scale that allows me to throw in all sorts of crazy ideas into one story.


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## Tyrael (Apr 12, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> That is the one of the things I constantly work on; I have a million ideas and I want them all executed in one novel, but then it distracts the points of view and pulls the plot in too many directions. Usually the reason I have to let things end, because I lose focus.
> 
> *But Ty is right; you should not limit yourself completely in any aspect.*



Yay, I knew I'd be right about something one day. 

Up yours, world. 



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> What they meant was that you shouldn't wait until later to use good ideas. People try and save it up for the perfect thing and use it but sometimes the idea gets reworked and moved back so far it never happens.
> 
> Really I think they meant don't wait until later works. Because in a book everything can't just happen up front.



That does not make sense at all. Seriously, what the hell does that mean? Use all of your ideas the moment you start writing?

As far as I understand it, it seems a completely nonsensical piece of advice.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 12, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Yay, I knew I'd be right about something one day.
> 
> Up yours, world.
> 
> ...




It means when you are working on a book, don't horde ideas for some other super project down the road. If you're going to horde all your ideas for a better book, why aren't you writing that one. 

That advice wouldn't work on a story basis. You can't take all your good ideas in one story and put them out front because it would be too much. But you can put them all throughout the book.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 12, 2009)

If you do try to cram in all your ideas sometimes you might cause mood dissonance with in your story world as well leave you without ideas for your next book.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 12, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Yay, I knew I'd be right about something one day.
> 
> Up yours, world.


 
You're so cute. 

--
And again, I believe trying to cram too much in blurs the focus of the story, particularly when during the writing process, ideas spring up and stray the plot in a different direction. An overabundance of twists and turns may shake the story up in the wrong way; as in, instead of being satisfactorily confusing or vague, it results in a mess.


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## Chee (Apr 12, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> You're so cute.
> 
> --
> And again, I believe trying to cram too much in blurs the focus of the story, particularly when during the writing process, ideas spring up and stray the plot in a different direction. An overabundance of twists and turns may shake the story up in the wrong way; as in, instead of being satisfactorily confusing or vague, it results in a mess.



Couldn't that be fixed during the editing process? 

I think its alright to do it during your first draft, first drafts are always a mess, but in your final? No, editing should remove all the cluttered ideas that don't work with the theme and story.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 12, 2009)

I have an over abundance of hallucinations.


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## Tyrael (Apr 12, 2009)

When you get a very good idea that fits perfectly with the story, adds value to the themes and characters and seems to elevate the story then sure. Add it in. Otherwise it'll seem contrived and will compromise the story in what is essentially the value of a whim.



Chee said:


> Couldn't that be fixed during the editing process?
> 
> I think its alright to do it during your first draft, first drafts are always a mess, but in your final? No, editing should remove all the cluttered ideas that don't work with the theme and story.



If you start messing about with the actual story during editing to a great degree you are essentially rewriting. Why make more work for yourself when it should be obvious at the time whether or not just throwing in new ideas is a good plan?

Editing is more for stylistic and character consistency, as well ironing out small elements of the plot.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 12, 2009)

Then Grant Morrison drug trip it is.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 12, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> If you start messing about with the actual story during editing to a great degree you are essentially rewriting. Why make more work for yourself when it should be obvious at the time whether or not just throwing in new ideas is a good plan?
> 
> Editing is more for stylistic and character consistency, as well ironing out small elements of the plot.


 
To answer the question, this. Changing a major aspect is changing the plot and direction, which is not editing and mistake-snatching, but rather reworking.


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## Chee (Apr 12, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> If you start messing about with the actual story during editing to a great degree you are essentially rewriting. Why make more work for yourself when it should be obvious at the time whether or not just throwing in new ideas is a good plan?
> 
> Editing is more for stylistic and character consistency, as well ironing out small elements of the plot.



I'm just saying that you don't add all of your ideas in for the shits and giggles, a lot of things sound good when your writing your first draft.

What I meant is that those ideas that sounded good at the time may not work later. If those ideas don't work, I seriously doubt they have much root in the story in the first place, its easily removed.

And again, I'm talking about the first draft. By the time you reach the final draft (now, exceptions always apply) your story could be completely different. It is rewriting, and it is editing, through that process you remove ideas and those ideas can range from minor characters to huge subplots.

I'm not against adding new ideas in my story, I know that those ideas can grow into something great or those ideas can be incredibly bad later on. It can always be fixed. It's just the first draft, no ones gonna read it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 13, 2009)

Chee said:


> I'm just saying that you don't add all of your ideas in for the shits and giggles, a lot of things sound good when your writing your first draft.
> 
> What I meant is that those ideas that sounded good at the time may not work later. If those ideas don't work, I seriously doubt they have much root in the story in the first place, its easily removed.
> 
> ...



I feel the same way, new drafts will have changes, sometimes even to the story elements itself. 

I have been working on this same story for a while and I am thinking about pretty much disregarding what all others said and making some heavy cuts as I write. I have already change the names of characters and the like, but I think that there is something inherently wrong with the story and with some of the characters as they stand. While some of it has been fixed, some of the characters simply will not be there when I do my next draft.


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## kakoishii (Apr 13, 2009)

The revision process always throws my mind for a loop. In my one short story I'm considering completely removing a pair of minor characters that actually got good reception from my workshop, but unfortunately slightly derails my core plot. In my other short story I'm mulling over making a character that I never intended to be anything more than peripheral more centralized and seductive. I have no idea what I'm going to do and my final portfolios are gonna be due soon, it's quite the dilemma.


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## Tyrael (Apr 13, 2009)

Chee said:


> I'm just saying that you don't add all of your ideas in for the shits and giggles, a lot of things sound good when your writing your first draft.
> 
> What I meant is that those ideas that sounded good at the time may not work later. If those ideas don't work, I seriously doubt they have much root in the story in the first place, its easily removed.
> 
> ...



I don't disagree, but it's something to be used carefully. There is a good chance of getting stuck in a rewrite loop. If you let yourself get carried away by ideas then you might cause so much dissonance that just scrapping the project would be the best idea.



kakoishii said:


> The revision process always throws my mind for a loop. In my one short story I'm considering completely removing a pair of minor characters that actually got good reception from my workshop, but unfortunately slightly derails my core plot. In my other short story I'm mulling over making a character that I never intended to be anything more than peripheral more centralized and seductive. I have no idea what I'm going to do and my final portfolios are gonna be due soon, it's quite the dilemma.



Either way for both cases you'll be taking a gamble, I say go for whichever path feels easier. It'll come out more smoothly.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 13, 2009)

kakoishii said:


> The revision process always throws my mind for a loop. In my one short story I'm considering completely removing a pair of minor characters that actually got good reception from my workshop, but unfortunately slightly derails my core plot. In my other short story I'm mulling over making a character that I never intended to be anything more than peripheral more centralized and seductive. I have no idea what I'm going to do and my final portfolios are gonna be due soon, it's quite the dilemma.



Revision is generally harder than the actual writing part of the whole mess. But there will be those times when you write something and some character steals all of the spotlight, I know I have done it before. If they derail the plot, then you might just have to be rid of them. If you can think of some way to make them better work, it would be best.


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## Batman (Apr 13, 2009)

You guys are thinking too hard.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 13, 2009)

Batman said:


> You guys are thinking too hard.



I just think I am getting this first story all wrong and wondering if its worth writing in the way that I originally envisioned it.


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## Tyrael (Apr 13, 2009)

I've hit a huge wall. The kind the kills off your ability to write, possibly permanently.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 13, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> I've hit a huge wall. The kind the kills off your ability to write, possibly permanently.



You lost your hands ?


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## Tyrael (Apr 13, 2009)

Might as well have.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 13, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Might as well have.



Well what happened


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## Tyrael (Apr 13, 2009)

No idea. My thoughts just don't translate onto the page at all. It's like I don't know anything about the English language when I sit down to write.

Plus my ideas don't make sense to me, don't link up...

Just everything about writing seems to have gone.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 13, 2009)

Then forget everything you know about the English language. Sit down and slap the keys until something comes out. It doesn't have to be good. It just has to be something. That'll get you going.


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## Tyrael (Apr 13, 2009)

That's exactly what I did. What came out has made it worse.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 13, 2009)

Then make some word salad.


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## Batman (Apr 13, 2009)

Ty, you need some optimism cake. If you set out to fail you might change your mind and never set out at all. If you set out to complete, you might surprise yourself and succeed.


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## Tyrael (Apr 13, 2009)

I've always said I'm my own worst enemy. I will win one day though, against that bastard. 

And I never set out thinking I won't be able to do it. It's more I set out with all the intentions in the world, and a conviction, that I will get this thing done. I don't think this is an attitude thing.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 13, 2009)

Batman said:


> You guys are thinking too hard.


 
Yeah.  Common for me, especially when it comes to writing; another irritating trait to transcend or at least, work through. I overthink everything at the drop of a hat, like some uneeded, unconscious paranoia.

Oh Ty. We are all our own worst enemies. We are with us all our lives. Our shadows and our critics, we cripple our own abilities. Our minds are there to decieve us as a test to decipher the language of ourselves.

So it goes, blah blah.


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## Tyrael (Apr 13, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Yeah.  Common for me, especially when it comes to writing; another irritating trait to transcend or at least, work through. I overthink everything at the drop of a hat, like some uneeded, unconscious paranoia.
> *
> Oh Ty. We are all our own worst enemies. We are with us all our lives. Our shadows and our critics, we cripple our own abilities. Our minds are there to decieve us as a test to decipher the language of ourselves.
> 
> So it goes, blah blah.*



'tis wise words you speak. Cryptic too. Especially the blah blah bit.

I guess in the end you can do it, or you can not. Any sentimentality you go about it with only means something to you, so no point in even taking notice of it. I should find some kind of prompt or phrase or something that gives me a reality check every time I get too wistful and stuff.

But I think everyone thinks too much; or, rather, everyone thinks too much about the wrong things.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 13, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> 'tis wise words you speak. Cryptic too. Especially the blah blah bit.
> 
> I guess in the end you can do it, or you can not. Any sentimentality you go about it with only means something to you, so no point in even taking notice of it. I should find some kind of prompt or phrase or something that gives me a reality check every time I get too wistful and stuff.
> 
> But I think everyone thinks too much; or, rather, everyone thinks too much about the wrong things.


 
Such a poet am I. 

We all think about some "wrong things"; yet, no one tries to correct those "wrong" things, despite them being perpetuated by people and not nature. We keep it as a throwback to tradition, our security blanket that we can turn on when it does us wrong, but we lie no claim to.


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## Daryoon (Apr 14, 2009)

Hmm. I've been writing since I was about 8, when I tried to write a school notebook-length story about the Ghostbusters. By the age of 12, I was plotting out stories about, eh, _ninjas from Atlantis_. Embarrassing stuff indeed. I do wish I still had copies of my work, but when I was 15 I destroyed everything in an artistic rage of "this isn't _good _enough!".

I've written some terrible stuff since. Terrible _long _stuff. I'm talking four-figure page counts :S

So writing is a bit of an obsession, you could say XD

I've started publishing online what I've been working on for four years now. Yes, I was trawling forums I frequent looking for "promotional opportunities". The link is in my sig  I'm taking things slowly before I try plugging it to much bigger audiences.

Anyhow.

*Top Tip*: write what you want, and don't ever worry about getting published by a major publishing company. To be honest, the whole system sucks. You have to write what sells, not what you'd like to write, after all. Thankfully we're in the middle of a massive social revolution thanks to the internet. Don't let anyone tell you self-publishing is the sign of a bad writer! You have indie films, indie music and indie video games, so why not literature?!*

*(the answer is, of course, because of literature snobbery and 'academics'. Viva la revolution!)


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 14, 2009)

Daryoon said:


> Hmm. I've been writing since I was about 8, when I tried to write a school notebook-length story about the Ghostbusters. By the age of 12, I was plotting out stories about, eh, _ninjas from Atlantis_. Embarrassing stuff indeed. I do wish I still had copies of my work, but when I was 15 I destroyed everything in an artistic rage of "this isn't _good _enough!".
> 
> I've written some terrible stuff since. Terrible _long _stuff. I'm talking four-figure page counts :S
> 
> ...



The internet has probably changed a lot of what we call artistic mediums, but the thing is with writing that there is so much out there, fan fiction, original fiction, blogs, poetry; its hard to get noticed. 

If you're going to be writing as a career, its hard to do only what you like, that's part of any job is having to do things you just don't want to. Painters get commissioned, sometimes film makers do too and so on. I don't think that writing good fiction has to mean you won't sell any though.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 14, 2009)

That is probably the reason I couldn't have writing as my sole career, because it is simply too much dependency on something that is difficult to do, with so much varied expression out there. 

Vague communication degree, here I come.


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## Daryoon (Apr 14, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The internet has probably changed a lot of what we call artistic mediums, but the thing is with writing that there is so much out there, fan fiction, original fiction, blogs, poetry; its hard to get noticed.
> 
> If you're going to be writing as a career, its hard to do only what you like, that's part of any job is having to do things you just don't want to. Painters get commissioned, sometimes film makers do too and so on. I don't think that writing good fiction has to mean you won't sell any though.



No, of course not, but there is a lot of luck involved. Getting noticed by a big publisher requires more than good writing. You need to understand the business. Give them what they want/think they want. A year ago a romantic novel involving vampires would have been a good thing to have, because you could have latched on to the current market trends. And many writers got their breaks because of the people they knew.

A new writer with no contacts in the industry, trying to sell a book about a clandestine society in Roman times plotting to overthrow the Emperor, is going to have a massively difficult task ahead of them. It doesn't matter if it's the book is so well written it makes Great Expectations look like Twilight.

It's like how shounen editors wants everything these days to "be like One Piece". It's that moral/artistic dilemma of "do I follow the trends and sacrifice my integrity so I can earn a nice income and comfortable life; or write what I want and quite possibly die in a squalor that makes Lovecraft's final years look majestic?"

The internet will (hopefully) drag power away from those businessmen controlling the industry to make themselves massively rich while leaving artists struggling with poor income.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 14, 2009)

Daryoon said:


> No, of course not, but there is a lot of luck involved. Getting noticed by a big publisher requires more than good writing. You need to understand the business. Give them what they want/think they want. A year ago a romantic novel involving vampires would have been a good thing to have, because you could have latched on to the current market trends. And many writers got their breaks because of the people they knew.
> 
> A new writer with no contacts in the industry, trying to sell a book about a clandestine society in Roman times plotting to overthrow the Emperor, is going to have a massively difficult task ahead of them. It doesn't matter if it's the book is so well written it makes Great Expectations look like Twilight.
> 
> ...



It won't because they're taking steps to rapidly control the internet. Caps, Net Neutrality and the like...


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## Batman (Apr 14, 2009)

There must be something in the air.

Guess who got another rejection letter today.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 14, 2009)

Batman said:


> There must be something in the air.
> 
> Guess who got another rejection letter today.



The Kool aid man? 

From what I hear, they're just part of the business baby.


----------



## Pan-on (Apr 14, 2009)

Daryoon said:


> No, of course not, but there is a lot of luck involved. Getting noticed by a big publisher requires more than good writing. You need to understand the business. Give them what they want/think they want. A year ago a romantic novel involving vampires would have been a good thing to have, because you could have latched on to the current market trends. And many writers got their breaks because of the people they knew.
> 
> A new writer with no contacts in the industry, trying to sell a book about a clandestine society in Roman times plotting to overthrow the Emperor, is going to have a massively difficult task ahead of them. It doesn't matter if it's the book is so well written it makes Great Expectations look like Twilight.
> 
> ...



You should read "On writing" Steven King talks about this sort of thing.



> There must be something in the air.
> 
> Guess who got another rejection letter today.



Aw that sucks, did you get any personal responce or suggestions with it?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 14, 2009)

On Writing is an impressive book, I like it. I need to start reading it again. I did look in the back where the draft for 1408 is, very good example of what editing does.


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## Daryoon (Apr 14, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It won't because they're taking steps to rapidly control the internet. Caps, Net Neutrality and the like...



Whether that succeeds or not is the question, though.



> You should read "On writing" Steven King talks about this sort of thing.



Had to read it as part of my degree XD


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 14, 2009)

Daryoon said:


> Whether that succeeds or not is the question, though.
> 
> 
> 
> Had to read it as part of my degree XD



The Caps are already in place, no one is going to pay 25 cents a MB to read or watch movies online.


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## Pan-on (Apr 14, 2009)

Daryoon said:


> Whether that succeeds or not is the question, though.
> 
> 
> 
> Had to read it as part of my degree XD



ah cool, whats your degree?


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## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 14, 2009)

I don't know what I want to do with my life. I have ideas, but no idea how those ideas morph into a career.


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## Pan-on (Apr 14, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> I don't know what I want to do with my life. I have ideas, but no idea how those ideas morph into a career.



I just always say im going to be a writer, possibly not a GOOD writer, but a writer none the less.

and i really hope i can become one because so far I seem totally unemployable


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## Batman (Apr 14, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The Kool aid man?
> 
> From what I hear, they're just part of the business baby.



Yessir, I'm going to build a house with them.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 14, 2009)

Anonx said:


> I just always say im going to be a writer, possibly not a GOOD writer, but a writer none the less.
> 
> and i really hope i can become one because so far I seem totally unemployable


 
I write constantly, and I know I will write books or short stories, but . . . I also love speaking. Arguing. Learning languages. Mediating. Studying media. Teaching. Most forms of communication, but I don't know what to /do/ with all of that.

[huggles for Batman]. Seconded; did any feedback come with it?


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## Batman (Apr 14, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> I write constantly, and I know I will write books or short stories, but . . . I also love speaking. Arguing. Learning languages. Mediating. Studying media. Teaching. Most forms of communication, but I don't know what to /do/ with all of that.
> 
> [huggles for Batman]. Seconded; did any feedback come with it?



Gracias, and nah not this time. Maybe with the next one I'm expecting in a few weeks. 

On a side note: How many languages can you speak/read/understand?


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## Pan-on (Apr 14, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> I write constantly, and I know I will write books or short stories, but . . . I also love speaking. Arguing. Learning languages. Mediating. Studying media. Teaching. Most forms of communication, but I don't know what to /do/ with all of that.
> 
> [huggles for Batman]. Seconded; did any feedback come with it?



become successful then do whatever you want with them.

Seriously, I know that sounds niave and simplistic but thats basically my "plan"

There are plenty of things I am interested in and would like to pursue in one way or another but all of that becomes easier when you already have something you are good at that is making you money.

And anyway I kinda like not knowing exactly how things will turn out so I will wander on through life attempting to do the things i want to.

In retrospect over the past 5 seconds what I have written is probably totally unhelpful to you. The point im trying to make is that its probably best you choose one thing to focus on for the moment and then switch later when you have something to fall back on.


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## Dream Brother (Apr 14, 2009)

I like how Anonx's spider has evolved over time. Spiffy.

(Now that I've made that completely irrelevant comment...)

Gonna try writing again today. I haven't done any real writing for a longggg time -- must be rusty as hell. It should feel great to get back to it, though.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 14, 2009)

Batman said:


> Gracias, and nah not this time. Maybe with the next one I'm expecting in a few weeks.
> 
> On a side note: How many languages can you speak/read/understand?


 
At least you've begun to send out samples to be rejected. I should do some of that during the summer.

Speak two and a half [admittedly out of practice]. Reading other languages is easy; in V. Choir, I'm constantly deciphering Latin and Italian, both of which are similar [romantic languages], and have been in airports with only spanish several times. Understanding? Spanish, Italian, Polish, some Japanese, a little German and Porteguese. Where I am stuck is forming sentences; I can understand it when spoken to me, but putting them in the word order and such, I think is difficult.

Side-note: I'm finally taking Japanese this year. =3

For anyone learning language: Immerse yourself. Read signs in other languages; travel to bi or tri-lingual airports; sing, read, or listen to foreign music; heck, I picked up french words from reading people's toiletries [including my own]. Varied languages are everywhere.

It was a helpful reply, Anonx. 

Edit: In my creative writing course, I'm in my poetry unit; I am excited. =D I have a blank verse and split couplets due tomorrow and I have not started. 

/waits for it to be about 3 AM.


----------



## Batman (Apr 14, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> At least you've begun to send out samples to be rejected. I should do some of that during the summer.
> 
> Speak two and a half [admittedly out of practice]. Reading other languages is easy; in V. Choir, I'm constantly deciphering Latin and Italian, both of which are similar [romantic languages], and have been in airports with only spanish several times. Understanding? Spanish, Italian, Polish, some Japanese, a little German and Porteguese. Where I am stuck is forming sentences; I can understand it when spoken to me, but putting them in the word order and such, I think is difficult.
> 
> ...



 Can I buy some success from you? That's hella impressive. I've tried to start learning Japanese but the goings are kinda slow since I don't have as much time as I used to. When I was younger picking up Spanish in class was easy, but I really just want to learn one more language. Maybe I should take a class again. And when I'm not so poor I'll hopefully be able to travel -- even live there for some months.


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## Pan-on (Apr 14, 2009)

Haha thanks DB, I may have a poll about what to do to him next.

I can only speak English and Scots, and calling Scots a language is kinda cheating. I know a little French and a tiny tiny bit of Japanese, it was never something I was interested in when I was younger but I kinda wish I had tried harder with French at school.

I have exams in two weeks, I need to read a lot of books and learn a lot of history that I just dont know, these are the points in my life that writing (and everything else) becomes infinitly more interesting.


----------



## Daryoon (Apr 14, 2009)

Anonx said:


> ah cool, whats your degree?



Creative Writing.

Worst degree ever.


----------



## Pan-on (Apr 14, 2009)

Daryoon said:


> Creative Writing.
> 
> Worst degree ever.



im doing english and scottish lit, but im hoping to take the creative writing part of the course next semester.

I don't really care about the degree as a way of getting a job, I just want something intersting.


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## Dream Brother (Apr 14, 2009)

I think I would have enjoyed doing CW for a degree -- just sounds really cool. I was actually originally thinking about doing it at Royal Holloway, as I did get accepted there, but then I changed my mind and stayed here to do English Lit. 

/slaps self

Speaking of that, better get back to ze essay...


----------



## kakoishii (Apr 14, 2009)

Daryoon said:


> Creative Writing.
> 
> Worst degree ever.



How so?


On another note is it possible to despise a Creative Writing class?
I'm so pissed because I think I'm gonna end up with a B in my creative writing class because I don't write in the genre my instructor loves. It's so frustrating, it makes me feel like a crap writer because I can never please the bastard!


----------



## Batman (Apr 14, 2009)

Anonx said:


> I can only speak English and Scots, and calling Scots a language is kinda cheating.


Damn! I suppose I'll have to scratch ebonics off my list. 



			
				Daryoon said:
			
		

> Creative Writing.
> 
> Worst degree ever.



More like most envious degree ever. I couldn't even get into a creative writing _class_ when I was at university.


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## Daryoon (Apr 14, 2009)

Anonx said:


> im doing english and scottish lit, but im hoping to take the creative writing part of the course next semester.
> 
> I don't really care about the degree as a way of getting a job, I just want something intersting.



A CW module is probably much better than a whole degree, if mine is anything to go by (and it's supposed to be one of the most prestigious CW degrees in the UK!)

In three years they've taught us bugger all. Nothing about writing novels, nothing about dealing with publishers, agents or editors. Half of the final year has involved writing journalistic pieces of broadsheet newspapers. And the majority of lecturers appear to be obsessed with the Holocaust.

I stopped taking it seriously the day I did a presentation of the portrayal of pirates in fiction. While dressed as a pirate.


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## Pan-on (Apr 14, 2009)

I know the lecturer who takes the course at our uni, he was a pretty good lecturer and i hear he has written a novel, the fact that the lecture he did was on the war of the worlds is a good sign I think.


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 14, 2009)

Batman said:


> Can I buy some success from you? That's hella impressive. I've tried to start learning Japanese but the goings are kinda slow since I don't have as much time as I used to. When I was younger picking up Spanish in class was easy, but I really just want to learn one more language. Maybe I should take a class again. And when I'm not so poor I'll hopefully be able to travel -- even live there for some months.


 
I've never found it incredible or anything; like I said, I go out of my way to read signs and newsletters in Spanish, and when relieving myself, I read the french on the back of shampoo bottles. People forget language is everywhere. Music really helps, too; I have at least one song in Spanish, Italian, French, German, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Porteguese, and Swedish, each. It helps with pronounciation, too. Language was required in high school, so I took Spanish [our German instructor left the year I arrived, that bastard]. And travelling / living in a country is an even better way to learn.



kakoishii said:


> On another note is it possible to despise a Creative Writing class?
> I'm so pissed because I think I'm gonna end up with a B in my creative writing class because I don't write in the genre my instructor loves. It's so frustrating, it makes me feel like a crap writer because I can never please the bastard!


 
I am very lucky I have an open-minded Creative Writing teacher. We have plenty of freedom.



Anonx said:


> Haha thanks DB, I may have a poll about what to do to him next.
> 
> I can only speak English and Scots, and calling Scots a language is kinda cheating. I know a little French and a tiny tiny bit of Japanese, it was never something I was interested in when I was younger but I kinda wish I had tried harder with French at school.
> 
> I have exams in two weeks, I need to read a lot of books and learn a lot of history that I just dont know, these are the points in my life that writing (and everything else) becomes infinitly more interesting.


 
Is Scottish a language? What is it based off of? 

For some reason, French bores me.


----------



## Pan-on (Apr 14, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> I've never found it incredible or anything; like I said, I go out of my way to read signs and newsletters in Spanish, and when relieving myself, I read the french on the back of shampoo bottles. People forget language is everywhere. Music really helps, too; I have at least one song in Spanish, Italian, French, German, Russian, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Porteguese, and Swedish, each. It helps with pronounciation, too. Language was required in high school, so I took Spanish [our German instructor left the year I arrived, that bastard]. And travelling / living in a country is an even better way to learn.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol its based off English, its a dialect really although some would disagree, we have a lot of our own words for things.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 14, 2009)

Anonx said:


> lol its based off English, its a dialect really although some would disagree, we have a lot of our own words for things.


 
English as in, proper English? England English?


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## Pan-on (Apr 14, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> English as in, proper English? England English?



well yes, il find some scots and edit this post with it.

rhino weight calc

rhino weight calc

fir example if a wis tae talk in scots it wid soond a bit like this.

some words we use (not necassarily me but some people)

brae (bray) =  hill
wee = small
bonnie = pretty
scunner = disgust
nippy = quick/spicy/tyrael uses it for somether else too


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## Tyrael (Apr 15, 2009)

Ach, ye cannae beat the ol' Scots language lassie. Ye wanna see the tongue in work, best read some o' Burns's scribblings. It's even got a translation there.

I generally use nippy to mean "annoying" though.


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## Pan-on (Apr 15, 2009)

the funny thing is I knew what you meant when you said it, despite having never heard it before.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 15, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Ach, ye cannae beat the ol' Scots language lassie. Ye wanna see the tongue in work, best read some o' Burns's scribblings. It's even got a translation there.
> 
> I generally use nippy to mean "annoying" though.



Nippy here means "cold" as in "your nipples are showing through your shirt."


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## Tyrael (Apr 15, 2009)

Same here. It has a lot of meanings apparently.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 15, 2009)

It's getting a little nipply in here.


----------



## Stalin (Apr 15, 2009)

I have to admit, I'm really lazy when it comes to writing my story, I mostly come up with ideas in my head. I have tried a ferw revisions of my first cahoter though. I'm not good with pacing and dialouge.

I have 16 main characters in my story(half of them antaganists) but 14 I want to give complex characterizations. But I don't know I'll pull it while trying to come up with a good plot.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 16, 2009)

The Cheat said:


> I have to admit, I'm really lazy when it comes to writing my story, I mostly come up with ideas in my head. I have tried a ferw revisions of my first cahoter though. I'm not good with pacing and dialouge.
> 
> I have 16 main characters in my story(half of them antaganists) but 14 I want to give complex characterizations. But I don't know I'll pull it while trying to come up with a good plot.



16 seems like a bit much, I used to try and do this but now I am down to like 6 really main ones and a large supporting cast.


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## Stalin (Apr 16, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> 16 seems like a bit much, I used to try and do this but now I am down to like 6 really main ones and a large supporting cast.



Well, I plan to have much screen time for my protaganists , I don't paln to inlcude that much supporting characters.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 16, 2009)

The Cheat said:


> Well, I plan to have much screen time for my protaganists , I don't paln to inlcude that much supporting characters.



I have a large supporting cast, but I need a lot of them and some of them only appear for one or two books.


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## Stalin (Apr 16, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I have a large supporting cast, but I need a lot of them and some of them only appear for one or two books.



So ar, I started working on the 6th revision of my first chapter. It sarts out in the bedroom of a town lord who is wrapped in bandages and he's watching an angel who's n a coma and he's got some questions to ask him. But when the angel wakes,he's brain damaged and has anmesia.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 16, 2009)

The Cheat said:


> So ar, I started working on the 6th revision of my first chapter. It sarts out in the bedroom of a town lord who is wrapped in bandages and he's watching an angel who's n a coma and he's got some questions to ask him. But when the angel wakes,he's brain damaged and has anmesia.



Sixth revision? You might catch up to me, this is like nine...its pretty ludocris really. 

But the idea you have there sounds nice enough. Jeez so many of us are writing about angels.


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## Stalin (Apr 16, 2009)

My story is about these knights who have these that give them the power of these long lost gods. 

I named the lord Ein and the angel is johan. Ein claims he was burned really badly but theres a reason why he's wrapped in bandages.

I'm trying to come up with something original. For example I came up with a reimaging of angels and demons. In fact, two of my main characters are half demon.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 16, 2009)

The Cheat said:


> My story is about these knights who have these that give them the power of these long lost gods.
> 
> I named the lord Ein and the angel is johan. Ein claims he was burned really badly but theres a reason why he's wrapped in bandages.
> 
> I'm trying to come up with something original. For example I came up with a reimaging of angels and demons. In fact, two of my main characters are half demon.



We were actually discussing this here


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## revin (Apr 16, 2009)

my cussin and i are writing a trillogy about magic adventure twist and turns through out so far we have worked out characters and the plot we just have to start writng the first chapter and we will be on our way


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## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 16, 2009)

Sixteen characters? 

How is that possible?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 16, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Sixteen characters?
> 
> How is that possible?



Didn't some book have like over 100 individual characters...


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## Lord Yu (Apr 16, 2009)

Probably Wheel of Time. Actually I think it was 1800.


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## Stalin (Apr 17, 2009)

Yeah I don't have loads and loads of characters.


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## Tyrael (Apr 17, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> Probably Wheel of Time. Actually I think it was 1800.



Erikson is not doing too bad either, although the complexity of  WoT during later books gets almost hyperbolic.



The Cheat said:


> Yeah I don't have loads and loads of characters.



Sixteen is quite a lot, if that's the main characters. Suggests there is also a huge amount of supporting characters. Ever since my first clusterfuck of a story I've been making an attempt to have as few main characters as I can.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 17, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Sixteen is quite a lot, if that's the main characters. Suggests there is also a huge amount of supporting characters. Ever since my first clusterfuck of a story I've been making an attempt to have as few main characters as I can.



That's what I was saying, it takes a very skillful person to work that many characters into something, generally I four mains and a supporting cast around them. In the next story of the series, some of the supporting cast might step up to assume one of the main character roles and one of the old mains might be forced into the background.


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## Tyrael (Apr 17, 2009)

I want to write a series like that at some point in the future-a plastic cast that allows for different characters to be focussed on for different stories.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 17, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> I want to write a series like that at some point in the future-a plastic cast that allows for different characters to be focussed on for different stories.



Not hard to do, several of my characters have shown an ability to exist outside of the main storyline and doing other stuff. 

Oh in another little announcement, someone and I are doing a co-authored story together possibly, details soon to come.


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## Tyrael (Apr 17, 2009)

You're co-authoring Twilight spin-offs with Meyer?


----------



## Einstein (Apr 17, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Oh in another little announcement, someone and I are doing a co-authored story together possibly, details soon to come.


O_o how soon will the details come? 
lol you'll definitely have to tell me how this one goes, I've never been too keen on co-authoring myself, no one understands anything I'm talking about until I put it on paper xP


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 17, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> You're co-authoring Twilight spin-offs with Meyer?


Um no, but it is a girl. 



Einstein said:


> O_o how soon will the details come?
> lol you'll definitely have to tell me how this one goes, I've never been too keen on co-authoring myself, no one understands anything I'm talking about until I put it on paper xP



Well the thing is, we discussed it last night, but we never planned anything beyond the fact that we wanted to do it. 

We kind of talked about different types of co-authoring and how systems differ. 

Like I have two friends who are sisters (the Singleton sisters are actually pretty popular online) and one sister writes the action, other writes the other parts. 

Then I mentioned how you can take two characters, one from each author and write them in a story together, or you can have one write, and part and the other do details and description (this is really hard).


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## Einstein (Apr 17, 2009)

> Well the thing is, we discussed it last night, but we never planned anything beyond the fact that we wanted to do it.
> 
> We kind of talked about different types of co-authoring and how systems differ.
> 
> ...


Ahh, I see. The different ways to do it sound pretty nice, but I'll still be riding solo, if only for the fact that no one I know is as serious about writing as I am.

But good luck! I'm definitely sure it'll be great if it gets done. I guess I'll have to start logging in to MSN again so you send it to me lol >_>


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 17, 2009)

Einstein said:


> Ahh, I see. The different ways to do it sound pretty nice, but I'll still be riding solo, if only for the fact that no one I know is as serious about writing as I am.



Yeah she kind of expressed interest in doing this and her writing style is actually kind of pleasing to me so I said I would try one with her.


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## Pan-on (Apr 17, 2009)

Me and Ty tried to write something together once, but it fell apart. Partly becasue he writes much faster than I do, mostly because my laptop broke and I haven't been able to recover what I had written yet.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 17, 2009)

Anon said:


> Me and Ty tried to write something together once, but it fell apart. Partly becasue he writes much faster than I do, mostly because my laptop broke and I haven't been able to recover what I had written yet.



I am pretty sure I am the faster writer this time.


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## Pan-on (Apr 17, 2009)

Its not really a huge problem, although I am a very very slow writer. Which is amusing since im a very very fast reader.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 17, 2009)

Anon said:


> Its not really a huge problem, although I am a very very slow writer. Which is amusing since im a very very fast reader.



I'm the opposite, I read like a one eyed retarded kid.


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## Bluebeard (Apr 18, 2009)

Right now I'm writing fanfictions. But when I get older, I'll start the big stuff. I already have a series planned out, it's colled Blood Hound. And it's about vampires. Simple as that.


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## Tyrael (Apr 18, 2009)

Long term plans are good; we all like to dream that our next novel will take us to international acclaim, make us millions and be forever regarded as a classic, but for anyone to get anywhere with this writing lark it normally takes a hell of a long time.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 18, 2009)

Everyone's writing about vampires or werewolves these days. Since I hate them, I'm not. I'm hoping my originality might get my foot in the door.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 18, 2009)

That's because werewolves and vampires are Bawss, son.


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## Tyrael (Apr 18, 2009)

It's because they've been neutered and shown to be like darkly glamorous people with super powers, hence making them mainstream. There need to be far more inventiveness with the concept.

In slang up here baw=ball (as in in the scrotum). Not used in a complementary way either.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 18, 2009)

I like vampires and werewolves in video games as fodder. But that's it.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 18, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> It's because they've been neutered and shown to be like darkly glamorous people with super powers, hence making them mainstream. There need to be far more inventiveness with the concept.
> 
> In slang up here baw=ball (as in in the scrotum). Not used in a complementary way either.



I am saying "Bawss" like Boss from this little SNL video. 

Some concepts really don't have to be invented upon all of the time, Hell Meyer did something semi creative with the sparkling thing and look how people ride her over it. 



Lord Yu said:


> I like vampires and werewolves in video games as fodder. But that's it.



Vampires and Werewolves really deserve more than fodder, fodder is like Zombies and other stupid forms of undead. I mean there's never been a book or game with one zombie and he's the mastermind.


----------



## Tyrael (Apr 18, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I am saying "Bawss" like Boss from this little SNL video.
> 
> Some concepts really don't have to be invented upon all of the time, Hell Meyer did something semi creative with the sparkling thing and look how people ride her over it.



I know, I was jus' pullin' yer leg.

'tis my opinion, but I don't think I'll read another tale with either of those two monster in it unless it promises to be unconventional or creative: otherwise it's just repetition.



> Vampires and Werewolves really deserve more than fodder, fodder is like Zombies and other stupid forms of undead. I mean there's never been a book or game with one zombie and he's the mastermind.



A story with zombies as more than just shambling fodder? I like that idea.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 18, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> I know, I was jus' pullin' yer leg.
> 
> 'tis my opinion, but I don't think I'll read another tale with either of those two monster in it unless it promises to be unconventional or creative: otherwise it's just repetition.



What about Mum-pires. 



Tyrael said:


> A story with zombies as more than just shambling fodder? I like that idea.



Then may I present you with:


----------



## Tyrael (Apr 18, 2009)

I've read parts of it-the sequel has a really cool ending but they completely lose all the badass shit for some hippy stuff. I felt narrative was a bit slow too.


----------



## Daryoon (Apr 18, 2009)

Vampires appeal to that wonderful audience of young girls who dream that they could be popular and have dark, mysterious men lusting after them.

It used to be that everyone kept reusing the elves and dwarves that Tolkien made popular. Even though he himself just reused other people's ideas.

It's probably only a matter of time before angels are the In-Thing again!


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## Tyrael (Apr 18, 2009)

This is true. Writing, like anything, just goes through trends. If I'm not mistaken Tolkien was one the one who popularised the idea that elves are tall, elegant, beautiful immortals; before that they were generally thought of as the evil equivalent of fairies. Might be mistaken though.

I'm just waiting for zombie vampire werewolf demon angels to be splattered all over media.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 18, 2009)

They already are.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 18, 2009)

Which do you think sounds like a better adventure hook? 

-one of the members of the adventurers troupe suddenly winds up very pregnant over night 

-a member of the party begins finding love letters addressed to them in their pack with none of the other members seeming to be at fault. 

-a phantom train passes a small town once per month, leaving malevolent, supernatural occurrences in its wake.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 18, 2009)

Third one. The first one sounds like a comedy. The second bad fan fiction.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 18, 2009)

The first one would be kind of hard to just explain away, hurr hurr, you're suddenly pregnant.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 18, 2009)

Co-authoring? Muy interesante. I suppose I could attempt it, but people never understand what I write. ;_______; Or maybe I'm incredibly unlucky; people want all the details and understanding right up front, and I hate writing that way. People can't stand not having it all in the beginning, and I love to keep things ambiguous and make people think; not everything needs an answer.


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 18, 2009)

I might be try to co-author one day.


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## Tyrael (Apr 18, 2009)

Me and Anon never really went that detailed. We just decided on an overarching plot and vague progression and an ending. A lot of things were gonna be kept ambiguous, and the ending was made to raise questions in the audience.

I really want to co-author again; my only other experience with it was very good. But finding someone willing to do so is hard. Hopefully me and Anon's project will get picked up again.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 18, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Co-authoring? Muy interesante. I suppose I could attempt it, but people never understand what I write. ;_______; Or maybe I'm incredibly unlucky; people want all the details and understanding right up front, and I hate writing that way. People can't stand not having it all in the beginning, and I love to keep things ambiguous and make people think; not everything needs an answer.



I'm not really one for things being Ambiguous at all really. I just don't like the idea for the most part.I can hold things back when I need to and the like but I try not to spare too much on the details unless I have good reason to. 

Looking at the writing I did last night I think I am going to have to go and rip through it and try added some more detail back in and the like but I kind of prefer something more straightforward most of the time.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 18, 2009)

Incredibly up-front writing is something I can read if I need to, but not enjoy. If it can't make me think on some level, there is very little point in reading it, in my opinion. Even some of those trashy romance novels with a women's too-perfect vision of sex with their personal dark stranger have twists in them that make you wonder just who did what, or what is going on.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 18, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Incredibly up-front writing is something I can read if I need to, but not enjoy. If it can't make me think on some level, there is very little point in reading it, in my opinion. Even some of those trashy romance novels with a women's too-perfect vision of sex with their personal dark stranger have twists in them that make you wonder just who did what, or what is going on.



Even up front stuff can make you think, what I am working on right now is basically a murder mystery, at least thats how it appears. And the reader can think about it as they go along. Its really hard to write something that doesn't have at least a small amount of thought involved in it, or that reveals a thought process. 

When I read Prep I remember thinking back on experiences with girls and wondering "did my acting like this make her think X"


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Apr 18, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Even up front stuff can make you think, what I am working on right now is basically a murder mystery, at least thats how it appears. And the reader can think about it as they go along. Its really hard to write something that doesn't have at least a small amount of thought involved in it, or that reveals a thought process.
> 
> When I read Prep I remember thinking back on experiences with girls and wondering "did my acting like this make her think X"


 
If it "appears" as one thing, it implies there is more underneath; therefore, not really "up-front".


----------



## Lord Yu (Apr 18, 2009)

I like to make people think about my characters. Their intentions, their thoughts, their perspectives, their adventures I want my readers to question all of it. I'm a big fan of subtlety, if it doesn't make the reader think a little the text won't stick.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 18, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> If it "appears" as one thing, it implies there is more underneath; therefore, not really "up-front".



Well figuring it out is the story. But as far as actual ambiguous writing, as in the style. I  usually try and stay away from it as best I can. There's usually a little mystery to drive the plot and there's some stuff to be figured out plot wise, but writing wise I am clear. 

At the same time I am trying hard not to ever really explain too much in exposition or even through the characters. One of my biggest complaints when I read Angels and Demons is how Brown would stop the story to explain some historical anecdote for no reason other than to explain it.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 18, 2009)

And then get it wrong.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 18, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> And then get it wrong.



I was thinking more about things that I am pretty sure are true but have no bearing on anything in the story. Like there's a page or so about how the Vatican had the penises removed from statues at one point...may or may not be true, but in a story about a race against the clock to find an Anti-Matter Bomb, who gives a fuck about that? 

Good news everyone [/Professor Fonsworth] I think I might have found the name for my character, Ava.


----------



## Stalin (Apr 18, 2009)

I haven't work on my story that much but I really should.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 18, 2009)

The Cheat said:


> I haven't work on my story that much but I really should.



I am working on mine right now, marital problems, demons and sex hooray lol (not so much to the sex right now and not so much that its the focus ) 

I am having some second thoughts with what to keep and what not to from planning.


----------



## Vix (Apr 18, 2009)

I'm working on one....it's like my....third one that I
thought of; I'm not even finished with my first one.
My only readers are: My two best friends, my sister,
and my brother in law. x] it's still unfinished....


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 18, 2009)

Akiko said:


> I'm working on one....it's like my....third one that I
> thought of; I'm not even finished with my first one.
> My only readers are: My two best friends, my sister,
> and my brother in law. x] it's still unfinished....



Most of my stuff is only read here in pieces, by one or two members in whole and by a friend or two around here. 

When you write long stuff its harder to get people to read it because its not a polished book, its full of mistakes and the like and it isn't yet ready for all of the world most of the time. 

I am trying to produce my story as the vision that I wanted it to be, but its really hard actually and I haven't had someone look over this yet.


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## Daryoon (Apr 18, 2009)

> If I'm not mistaken Tolkien was one the one who popularised the idea that elves are tall, elegant, beautiful immortals; before that they were generally thought of as the evil equivalent of fairies. Might be mistaken though.



Tolkien got pretty much everything in LotR from mythology. Elves are fairly common in Germanic myths. Tolkien didn't really do anything that amazing or new (Wagner pre-dates him for "epic magic ring-based narrative derived from Norse myth"), it just happens that LotR got massively popular in the Sixties.

Hell, he even rewrote the Hobbit to make it work better with its sequels/prequels! The exact same 'crime' George Lucas is frequently lambasted for after he made alterations to the original Star Wars trilogy!



> I'm working on one....it's like my....third one that I
> thought of; I'm not even finished with my first one.
> My only readers are: My two best friends, my sister,
> and my brother in law. x] it's still unfinished....



Never worry about how many people read your work. _Always_ write for yourself.


I feel accomplished, as I just finished writing/editing ~4,500 words. It's great when you get addicted. I could've kept going, to be honest, but since I was at the end of a chapter, I figured I'd take a break!


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## Lord Yu (Apr 18, 2009)

Magic ring that makes you invisible dates back to Ancient Greece. 

I don't shoot for original. I shoot for awesome.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 18, 2009)

Daryoon said:


> Tolkien got pretty much everything in LotR from mythology. Elves are fairly common in Germanic myths. Tolkien didn't really do anything that amazing or new (Wagner pre-dates him for "epic magic ring-based narrative derived from Norse myth"), it just happens that LotR got massively popular in the Sixties.
> 
> Hell, he even rewrote the Hobbit to make it work better with its sequels/prequels! The exact same 'crime' George Lucas is frequently lambasted for after he made alterations to the original Star Wars trilogy!
> 
> ...



Tolkien isn't amazing for just what he wrote, but also how much.

As for me, I did 1,500 words today and plan to do more, but I need to find some way to eat first.


----------



## Batman (Apr 18, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> Magic ring that makes you invisible dates back to Ancient Greece.
> 
> I don't shoot for original. I shoot for awesome.



Damn right.



> "even in literature and art, no man who bothers about originality will ever be original: whereas if you simply try to tell the truth (without caring twopence how often it has been told before) you will, nine times out of ten, become original without ever having noticed it


----------



## Tyrael (Apr 19, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Most of my stuff is only read here in pieces, by one or two members in whole and by a friend or two around here.
> 
> When you write long stuff its harder to get people to read it because its not a polished book, its full of mistakes and the like and it isn't yet ready for all of the world most of the time.
> 
> I am trying to produce my story as the vision that I wanted it to be, but its really hard actually and I haven't had someone look over this yet.



I intend to worry about a readership when the damn thing is finished and edited and such. Until then if a person is interested I'll let them read it, but actively looking for feedback does not make sense.



Daryoon said:


> Tolkien got pretty much everything in LotR from mythology. Elves are fairly common in Germanic myths. Tolkien didn't really do anything that amazing or new (Wagner pre-dates him for "epic magic ring-based narrative derived from Norse myth"), it just happens that LotR got massively popular in the Sixties.
> 
> Hell, he even rewrote the Hobbit to make it work better with its sequels/prequels! The exact same 'crime' George Lucas is frequently lambasted for after he made alterations to the original Star Wars trilogy!



Can't say I've read the pre-LotR version of the Hobbit, so not sure I could comment. But Tolkien did pretty much derive everything from folk lore, this is true.

I wasn't aware Wagner wrote the actual story behind The Ring though.



Batman said:


> Damn right.



I find myself in a strange position. I do try to be original but often overshoot the mark and end up in territory that I imagine would just be alienating. Originality is all well and good, but the first thing a book should be, in my opinion, is entertaining. All else is bonus.

Also, since I posted it in the conv.:


*Spoiler*: __ 



It slopped down on the plate before her, porridge landing back in the bowl. The steady, flat, equilibrium of the substance was not broken. Muttering to himself, Lord Sigh scooped up another spoon of porridge and attempted to tease it into his daughter?s mouth. 

?Please,? Lucy looked up at her father. He was looking as much like a skeleton as ever, his clothes hanging off of him like a clown. The affect it gave off, however, was anything but comical. Bone pale, thin arms and a face that was little beyond skin and skull. His eyes contained fierce life in it and that was all that persuaded Lucy he still had a grip on his sanity. On the chair, as grand as a throne, he looked small and inadequate.

Beside him was the smaller chair that her mother had occupied before her death. Where there had always been an upright, proud woman now slumped a porcelain skinned child. Her curly blonde locks were half obscuring her face. The set of her body would lead an observer to, at a glance, guess the child to be sleeping. Or dead. The girl was as alive or awake as she had been for the last two months: nothing but a puppet made of flesh. Her large brown eyes may have as well belonged to those of a doll.

Here in the reception chamber of the House of Sigh her father had sat on his seat and tried to feed the porridge to her sister Annabelle for all that time. Occasionally he would leave the room and wonder the corridors shouting impatiently for his dead wife. She would dread to bump into him there, walking like a ghost through the corridors with the same tired routine. There was something so unearthly about the sight, so far removed from the father she knew before, that she felt her skin go cold upon the sight. It was rumoured, amongst the servants, before they all ran, that he would murder them if he encountered them. There had been corpses discovered, beaten to death in the halls.

There was no way her father had committed the murders. It was whatever stalked the corridors unseen. The house itself, at times, seemed to have taken on malice, but Lucy knew that there had been a change affected in it. Whatever it was lingered and moved. There were times she could feel eyes on her, as if a physical force. Now they were elsewhere.

She knew who to blame, even if she did not know if it was him who now hung like a curse over the family. The death of her mother, she had thought at the time, had been the end of the world. Now, with the all but literal death of her father, it was obvious that idea was folly. What would happen when the food ran out and she could no longer cook for herself? Stepping outside the house...no. Never.

The room was the biggest in the house, probably designed to impress visitors. Elaborate decorations furnished the room with an elegant sense of modesty; not plaster everywhere in a garish display of riches. The roof was domed at the top and the floor was a carpet as richly detailed as any tapestry; a highly nuanced pattern weaved under the feel of the visitors. Like a throne, the place where the main chair and the smaller were raised. From it her father peered down with unconcealed contempt.

?Please,? she repeated, ?just look at her!?

?What is this drivel you speak of?? it was less a question than a snarl. ?Why have you yet to fetch Larissa??

?She?s dead, why can?t you see that?? The words had passed her lips so many times that she had a hard time keeping her voice from breaking.

?Do not talk to me like that. Do not presume you even have the right to talk to me like that!?

She scorned herself into holding back the tears. This was not a time for weakness. ?You still don?t recognise me??

Her father snorted. ?Why should I spend the time learning the names of my servants? Remember where you stand. Now go tell Larissa she must come to the reception room. Where is she?? He turned back to the slumped girl. ?Stop crying, your mother will be here soon.?

?But-?

?I said go, now! My patience will not last much longer. If you think to have found me in bad humour, you are mistaken.? He grasped the flesh doll and shook her. ?Stop crying damn you!?

That was it. Too much. Lucy ran from the room, hearing her father curse behind her. There was a flat thump, as if he had hit her sister.




Stylistically it's still a bit rough, but I should be able to iron it out after an edit.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 19, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> I intend to worry about a readership when the damn thing is finished and edited and such. Until then if a person is interested I'll let them read it, but actively looking for feedback does not make sense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There's nothing really wrong with studying up on something and using it in a story. Stories with some mythology in them are kind of common actually and there's nothing wrong with what the author did really. 

Taking ideas and plots are pretty common too, they say you can pretty divide any plot into one of a small number of categories. Of course the categories are simplified.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 19, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> I find myself in a strange position. I do try to be original but often overshoot the mark and end up in territory that I imagine would just be alienating. Originality is all well and good, but the first thing a book should be, in my opinion, is entertaining. All else is bonus.



Nonsense! A book must be obscure and filled to the brim with double meanings and complex symbolism. It must lend itself to countless longwinded academic studies so critics and scholars can pic apart every word and phrase and agonize endlessly over what this or that says about the human experience.


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## Tyrael (Apr 19, 2009)

Evidently the prolific use of the word "the" is a symbol to represent the unending struggle of humanity.


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## Daryoon (Apr 19, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Can't say I've read the pre-LotR version of the Hobbit, so not sure I could comment. But Tolkien did pretty much derive everything from folk lore, this is true.
> 
> I wasn't aware Wagner wrote the actual story behind The Ring though.



You won't be able to read the original version of the Hobbit, unless you unearth some super-rare first edition. Unlike Lucas, Tolkien didn't have rabid fanboys demanding he re-release the original in all it's "glory".

And Wagner certainly didn't invent the Magic Ring story. He just wrote an epic set of operas (The Ring of the Nibelung) in the 19th century, which happened to concern a magic ring of world conquering power, and was based on Norse mythology (like much of LotR).

Which just goes to show that nothing is really original. People will just ignorantly believe you rip of [insert popular story here] when [insert archetype here] has been used for thousands of years.

For example: a hero whose hair goes all spiky when he enters an increased level of combat ability? A power-up that causes him to launch into a demonic rage? 

Cúchulainn. Mythical Irish hero. Not Goku. Not Naruto. Just one of plentiful mythical heroes who had a "transformation".

It always annoys me when people think "antagonistic father = Star Wars rip-off". These days I imagine "serpentine villain = Voldemort rip-off". Because, you know, THAT doesn't date back millennia...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 19, 2009)

Daryoon said:


> You won't be able to read the original version of the Hobbit, unless you unearth some super-rare first edition. Unlike Lucas, Tolkien didn't have rabid fanboys demanding he re-release the original in all it's "glory".
> 
> And Wagner certainly didn't invent the Magic Ring story. He just wrote an epic set of operas (The Ring of the Nibelung) in the 19th century, which happened to concern a magic ring of world conquering power, and was based on Norse mythology (like much of LotR).
> 
> ...



Yes, but the rip off is credited to the source where people saw it.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 19, 2009)

Dragonball itself was originally supposed to be a retelling of The Journey West.


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## Stalin (Apr 20, 2009)

I realize I have a tendency to pad.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 20, 2009)

The Cheat said:


> I realize I have a tendency to pad.



Pad as in over write?


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## Stalin (Apr 20, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Pad as in over write?



As in overite in a subject that goes nowhere in terms of plot.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 20, 2009)

The Cheat said:


> As in overite in a subject that goes nowhere in terms of plot.



I tend to under write things I think. I am struggling with whether I should write this scene the way I pictured it first or completely flip it because of the fact I don't think I can really do it justice.


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## Stalin (Apr 20, 2009)

Same thing with me, I don't like my style of writing, its too simple.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 20, 2009)

The Cheat said:


> Same thing with me, I don't like my style of writing, its too simple.




I like my simple style of writing, I never have to worry about it looking pretentious and the like, but at the same time I think that sometimes I go too simple with small parts and I need to pick it up a bit.


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## Stalin (Apr 20, 2009)

I don't know If I'm good with characterizations when it comes to writing them.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 20, 2009)

I hate to pad and I don't believe my ADHD will let me. I like to make sure my descriptions are both detailed and fluid.


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## Pan-on (Apr 20, 2009)

My current problem with what I am writing is too much dialog.

Actually it isn't too much dialog per say just not enough exposition in relation to the dialog, I need to get better at writing what is happening without it being just a boring relaying of events.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 20, 2009)

Anon said:


> My current problem with what I am writing is too much dialog.
> 
> Actually it isn't too much dialog per say just not enough exposition in relation to the dialog, I need to get better at writing what is happening without it being just a boring relaying of events.



I think that at times there isn't enough writing around my dialogue to look right. But maybe that's something only I notice when I am writing it. Maybe its my font and how spaced it looks, when I tried changing it, things seemed to be a lot more balanced.


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## Tyrael (Apr 20, 2009)

Daryoon said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Didn't you know? The bible is just a shallow rip off of Harry Potter. 

I always find the key to the situation is that the examples you mention have become so well known that they are immediately associated with that particular move-the "Darth Vader/I am your father" one is probably the perfect example. It has gotten to the point that it does not matter who did that twist first or originally used it better, since it is always associated with Star Wars due to the exposure in the media. Whenever people use the twist there is bound to be Star Wars comparisons coming up regardless.

I think originality can only really be achieved by taking old ideas and concepts and changing them slightly. There's no way to escape that we only write based on our influences, so taking them and using in odd ways is probably the closest any of us can come to being original.



The Cheat said:


> Same thing with me, I don't like my style of writing, its too simple.



I thinking padding is good, so long as you cut it out. Gives you options during editing, and, after all, that's where most of the quality of a piece will come from. Don't expect your first draft to be good: I personally expect every first draft I to be crap. Making it good can come later, for the time being just writing it is a big enough task.



Anon said:


> My current problem with what I am writing is too much dialog.
> 
> Actually it isn't too much dialog per say just not enough exposition in relation to the dialog, I need to get better at writing what is happening without it being just a boring relaying of events.



I went from being like that to having not enough dialogue. I changed the plot structure, so now I don't have enough. I need to find some sort of happy medium.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 20, 2009)

Well I finally got that sex scene out of the way, it was kind of nerve wrecking but I think its actually important to the story. So far I am happy with where I am going and the like. I haven't really had a writing streak this good in a while. I also ironed out some of the trouble in my story.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 23, 2009)

I finally finished another Gohei chapter. After months and months.


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## Tyrael (Apr 23, 2009)

I know that feeling. All you can do is try and go forward.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 28, 2009)

I've been trying to figure out how to label my story for fun. My story has traces of Cyberpunk with High Fantasy magic and scale.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 28, 2009)

This thread was dormant for a while...

I am pretty sure that my story is very urban fantasy...I think that is noticeably clear actually.


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## Daryoon (Apr 28, 2009)

I tend not to label mine with any specific genre, since I cover so many at various points. It's told and constructed in such a way that I don't have to limit myself to anything.

It makes it extremely hard to market!


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## Lord Yu (Apr 28, 2009)

I do as well. But I tend to think of it as a fantasy world in world between modern and futuristic.


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## Batman (May 1, 2009)

Just a bit more . . . then I can sit back and prod it with hot pokers.


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## Lord Yu (May 1, 2009)

As I said last night I'm apparently writing in the style of New Weird.


Now to harness the power of moe.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 1, 2009)

I am pretty much back to where I started this rewrite, so I am happy with that. If anyone would like to take a look at the revised opener, I have it posted in my bloggy:


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## Batman (May 1, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> As I said last night I'm apparently writing in the style of New Weird.
> 
> 
> Now to harness the power of moe.




*Spoiler*: __ 



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpPeY5PSpXE[/YOUTUBE]






> I am pretty much back to where I started this rewrite, so I am happy with that. If anyone would like to take a look at the revised opener, I have it posted in my bloggy:


 Will read it after I write this next bit.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 1, 2009)

Awesome sauce.


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## Batman (May 1, 2009)

K I took a gander. My comments are below teh story in the blog.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 1, 2009)

Batman said:


> K I took a gander. My comments are below teh story in the blog.



Alrightie, thanks.


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## Lord Yu (May 1, 2009)

Speaking of which I need to rewrite my intro to make it flow better.


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## Batman (May 1, 2009)

I gotta rework my first chapter too. Though I'm not going to do much, just rearrange some stuff.


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## Chee (May 1, 2009)

I gotta WRITE my first chapter. OHOHO.


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## Lord Yu (May 1, 2009)

I'm gonna change the perspective in one chapter as well.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 1, 2009)

Batman said:


> I gotta rework my first chapter too. Though I'm not going to do much, just rearrange some stuff.



I rearranged a lot of my plot points this time too.


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## Chee (May 1, 2009)

What's your guy's favorite perspective to write in?


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## Lord Yu (May 1, 2009)

First, because it's easiest to bullshit with and it also makes it easy to mask play with inconsistency.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 2, 2009)

I get down in third, but I find the results are better in first. First is just harder for me somehow, because I have to assume that character so much more.


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## darkblossom (May 2, 2009)

I think first is easier just because you only have to write from one perspective instead of many of them.  I started out writing in first then switched to third...now it's pretty easy for me to switch back and forth, although sometimes I forget which one I'm writing in.


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## Dream Brother (May 2, 2009)

Third-person limited is my favourite.


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## Psallo a Cappella (May 3, 2009)

Third-person omniscent, second person, third-person objective, and unreliable narrator.

I hate first-person with a passion.

PRESENT TENSE IS LOVE


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## Chee (May 3, 2009)

Yea, I don't care much for first person although I have the tendency to write in it.


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## Lord Yu (May 3, 2009)

I love to read and write in first person. It's so versatile in regards to perception.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 3, 2009)

Probably the best complete story I wrote came in first person, I was pretty shocked with how it turned out, but for most of my characters and most of my plots it simply wouldn't work and I despise switching mid story.


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## Lord Yu (May 3, 2009)

I used to write my entire multi-perspective story in first.


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## Tyrael (May 3, 2009)

I love playing about with tenses. I write in limited third person, but would like to dabble in first.


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## Pan-on (May 3, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Third-person omniscent, second person, third-person objective, and unreliable narrator.
> 
> I hate first-person with a passion.
> 
> PRESENT TENSE IS LOVE



present tense first person is SO HARD to keep up. My last FF was like that and it took about 3 rewrites just to get it to stay in tense.


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## Lord Yu (May 3, 2009)

I've written a section of my story entirely in first person present tense and I've only had tense problems on that section once. I have 40 pages of it.


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## Tyrael (May 3, 2009)

Tense just needs practice really. I used to have trouble with past tense.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 3, 2009)

I don't like to mess around with tense really, I keep pretty much the same one.


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## Tyrael (May 3, 2009)

It can go horribly, horribly wrong if you are not careful. Read _Red Dragon_ if you want to see it done well though.


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## Lord Yu (May 3, 2009)

I have first person present tense in one section and third person past tense in the others.


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## Tyrael (May 3, 2009)

Is it wrong I want to write something shallow and swashbuckling? Something impossible and reality denying? With two characters based on Pinky and the Brain?


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## Lord Yu (May 3, 2009)

Do it under the Gurren Lagann method.


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## Tyrael (May 3, 2009)

Nah, my ability to create upbeat characters is awful. It's a huge weakness of mine. It's basically a big steampunk adventure. In space.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 3, 2009)

I just feel like I have to write in past except for the short bursts where I try something slightly experimental.

I'm NOT that experimental style writer.


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## Lord Yu (May 3, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Nah, my ability to create upbeat characters is awful. It's a huge weakness of mine. It's basically a big steampunk adventure. In space.



Sounds like someone could use cake. Or a heaping helping of denial.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 3, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Is it wrong I want to write something shallow and swashbuckling? Something impossible and reality denying? With two characters based on Pinky and the Brain?



Sounds like fun...I think I might have something a little swashbuckly soon and it might be with angels and guns...


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## Psallo a Cappella (May 4, 2009)

Anon said:


> present tense first person is SO HARD to keep up. My last FF was like that and it took about 3 rewrites just to get it to stay in tense.


 
Honestly, I am the complete opposite; I find it difficult to write in past tense now. It's painstaking.


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## Lord Yu (May 4, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Sounds like fun...I think I might have something a little swashbuckly soon and it might be with angels and guns...



Angels and guns you say? There's a certain anime pr0n I'd like to introduce you too.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 4, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> Angels and guns you say? There's a certain anime pr0n I'd like to introduce you too.



I can't possibly imagine what you're talking about


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## Pan-on (May 5, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> Honestly, I am the complete opposite; I find it difficult to write in past tense now. It's painstaking.



Generally I write in third person past tense, but i want to try first person past soon I think.

but present just seemed like a long list of I do this, I do that which got a little tedious to write.

Then again maybe I was just bad at it, I cant think of anything I know written like that.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 5, 2009)

It's far less common, generally you see mostly first person past or third limited past.


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## Tyrael (May 5, 2009)

Anon said:


> Generally I write in third person past tense, but i want to try first person past soon I think.
> 
> but present just seemed like a long list of I do this, I do that which got a little tedious to write.
> 
> Then again maybe I was just bad at it, I cant think of anything I know written like that.



Present is no different from past except verbs are different. If you are writing it as a list, that's more style than tense.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It's far less common, generally you see mostly first person past or third limited past.



Yeah.


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## Psallo a Cappella (May 6, 2009)

Anon said:


> Generally I write in third person past tense, but i want to try first person past soon I think.
> 
> but present just seemed like a long list of I do this, I do that which got a little tedious to write.
> 
> Then again maybe I was just bad at it, I cant think of anything I know written like that.


 
See, what you described _"I do this, I do that"_ is *"present [tense] simple"*, which is usually used to talk about routines and related subjects. It's bland, true, but keep reading. 

Then there's *"present progressive",* which describes the event happening in the "now" [as in, right now], using something like _"I am . . . " _

There's also a *"present perfect"* ---> "I have done".

And *"Present perfect progressive"*, which is indicating a beginning in the past and a continuation from thereon --->  _"I have been . . . "_

For novel or narrative -writing purposes, they're used in combination all under a broad "present tense", because using one sub-tense doesn't lend itself much flexibility and would drastically limit what one could discuss. Not to mention bore the reader out of his skull.


----------



## Pan-on (May 6, 2009)

Miss Pulchritudinous said:


> See, what you described _"I do this, I do that"_ is *"present [tense] simple"*, which is usually used to talk about routines and related subjects. It's bland, true, but keep reading.
> 
> Then there's *"present progressive",* which describes the event happening in the "now" [as in, right now], using something like _"I am . . . " _
> 
> ...



very true, I just wasn't familair with writing in that particular style.

I seriously need to find some old school textbook and relearn grammar from the beginning, it bugs me so much that I can't write naturally grammatically correct sentances.


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## Lord Yu (May 7, 2009)

Today, I noticed something. My story isn't very violent anymore.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 7, 2009)

I have written two fights in this novel so far, one was between a possessed women with a large knife and one of my main characters. The other was between a large Nix (its like a demon in the story) and my other main character, actually happened in a pool. 

I find that if there is too much action my writing burns out.


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## Lord Yu (May 7, 2009)

Other than in the prologue-which was pretty gory- I have had one action sequence. Actually three.

Actually, scratch that. Gohei's part has gotten pretty violent.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 7, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> Other than in the prologue-which was pretty gory- I have had one action sequence. Actually three.
> 
> Actually, scratch that. Gohei's part has gotten pretty violent.



I think that things might heat up towards the latter half of the story, but I am trying to avoid most of the action in this book until the end (I was reconsidering the dragon I had before, might be too much)


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## Lord Yu (May 7, 2009)

There's some crazy RE-style horror violence.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 7, 2009)

I haven't tried that sort of thing in a while, I think that I might have a need for some of the gruesome stuff when it gets to the plagues. 

I just wrote about it raining frogs.


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## Lord Yu (May 7, 2009)

I had zombies and monsters.


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## Lord Yu (May 7, 2009)

Oh and I forgot about the part where someone gets their bones crushed by their own muscles.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 7, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I had zombies and monsters.





Lord Yu said:


> Oh and I forgot about the part where someone gets their bones crushed by their own muscles.



Lol I don't have anything that hard core yet, but one of the characters gets eaten by a giant demon. I tried to capture the idea...you know of getting eaten by a giant demon


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## Pan-on (May 7, 2009)

i had some guys with knives...it feels less dangerous now.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 7, 2009)

Anon said:


> i had some guys with knives...it feels less dangerous now.



Well if its the most dangerous thing you write, then its fine in that story. The thing is I don't expect Little Women to have gunplay. But in a story like mine if there's not at least one or two confrontations it seems odd. 

The fight I am waiting to do later is Death and Nature vs the main villain.


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## Lord Yu (May 7, 2009)

The person not only got crushed by their own muscles but had their skin peeled off and of course their organs turned to goo.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 7, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> The person not only got crushed by their own muscles but had their skin peeled off and of course their organs turned to goo.



Lol, sounds like it would be fun to have happen. I don't usually get too hard core with it. One of the angels gets her wings ripped out of her back while she is flying and then the enemy rides her into the ground.


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## Lord Yu (May 14, 2009)

So who dodges food scenes? I know nothing about foo so I dodge things alot in that area.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 14, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> So who dodges food scenes? I know nothing about foo so I dodge things alot in that area.



Food, I am not sure what you mean. Like eating?


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## Lord Yu (May 14, 2009)

Mentioning food. Specific dishes and whatnot. Like character is eating such and such at meal and comments on it. People often talk about food while eating. Especially, as a new experience.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 14, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> Mentioning food. Specific dishes and whatnot. Like character is eating such and such at meal and comments on it. People often talk about food while eating. Especially, as a new experience.




I guess my characters haven't really been eating together yet, they have been drinking or waiting for for food. I know enough about certain dishes to pull it off.


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## Lord Yu (May 14, 2009)

I've inadvertently invoked this trope 
Choki Choki no Mi
lulz.


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## Tyrael (May 14, 2009)

Eat? Who needs to eat?

My characters photosynthesis everything that isn't alcohol. There needs to be more drunkenness in fantasy fiction.

Where all the white women at?


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## Lord Yu (May 14, 2009)

I've already had a bit of drunkenness.

I've seemed to have invoked both gender sides of that trope.


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## Tyrael (May 14, 2009)

I was tempted to make the people in my story random ethnicities. Can't be arsed though.


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## Lord Yu (May 14, 2009)

A big theme in my story is racism both fantastic and real. Also because the scope is planetwide encompassing many different cultures at war.


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## Pan-on (May 14, 2009)

I don't think I have ever mentioned ethnicity in a story, I barely mention what my characters look like at all, generally I leave it to my reader unless its integral to the plot.


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## Lord Yu (May 14, 2009)

I must give a detailed description of nearly everyone for the sake of themed aesthetics.


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## Tyrael (May 14, 2009)

Even fodder characters?


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## Lord Yu (May 14, 2009)

Yes, even fodder.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 15, 2009)

I describe aspects of certain things and the like, like stand out things about the characters.


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## Lord Yu (May 15, 2009)

I am plain shocked CTK missed discussion of this trope. 
Cheap Ceftin


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 15, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I am plain shocked CTK missed discussion of this trope.
> Cheap Zimulti



When they get one for green women...tell me...


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## Lord Yu (May 15, 2009)

They have one for redheads.
Cheap Zimulti


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 15, 2009)

I have noticed that when white women and black men are together in shows it seems that they play it as if the black guy is somehow horrible and loses her for it.


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## Lord Yu (May 15, 2009)

I don't think I've ever seen that happen.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 15, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I don't think I've ever seen that happen.



It happened in Angel, one other show I can't remember the name of exactly and it happened on 90210. I think there are more examples but I can't remember any now.


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## Lord Yu (May 15, 2009)

Never watched either of those shows.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 15, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> Never watched either of those shows.



Angel is the shit.

90210 really makes me angry, I need to just start cutting it off because I am going to Hulk out and break my TV.


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## Lord Yu (May 15, 2009)

I don't dig on teen drama but all the things people say about Joss Whedon(I did love Dr Horrible) might make me check it out one day.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 15, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I don't dig on teen drama but all the things people say about Joss Whedon(I did love Dr Horrible) might make me check it out one day.



Buffy rapidly gets worse after season 3, but Angel and Firefly are good shows (Firefly would have surpassed them had it been longer) 

90210 is horrible, I only watch it because I almost never cut my TV off or change the channel, at most I mute it.


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## Lord Yu (May 15, 2009)

I avoid the CW like the living plague.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 15, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I avoid the CW like the living plague.



I love Supernatural 

I avoid a lot of other shows, like Lost


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## Lord Yu (May 15, 2009)

I avoid Lost because I want to watch all the previous seasons first. =/


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 15, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I avoid Lost because I want to watch all the previous seasons first. =/



I want shows like that to be over before I ever watch them.


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## Tyrael (May 15, 2009)

They are going to end _Lost_? I was under the impression that they would keep going not giving anyone answers 'till the writers couldn't think of anything else then have it cancelled.

But yeah, not seen _Lost _for the same reason as Yu. Seen the pilot to _Firefly_, and I'm fairly interested in watching the rest. Also heard good things about _The Wire_ and I've been told to watch _Heroes _countless times.


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## Dream Brother (May 15, 2009)

_Firefly_ = <3

Great writing and actors.


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## Lord Yu (May 15, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> When they get one for green women...tell me...



Naruto doesn't believe in himself. He believes in Jiraiya who believed in him.


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## Lord Yu (May 15, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> They are going to end _Lost_? I was under the impression that they would keep going not giving anyone answers 'till the writers couldn't think of anything else then have it cancelled.
> 
> But yeah, not seen _Lost _for the same reason as Yu. Seen the pilot to _Firefly_, and I'm fairly interested in watching the rest. Also heard good things about _The Wire_ and I've been told to watch _Heroes _countless times.



Watch the first season of Heroes, have some fun, then pretend it ended there.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 15, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> They are going to end _Lost_? I was under the impression that they would keep going not giving anyone answers 'till the writers couldn't think of anything else then have it cancelled.



Lost has had an ending written and an end date since season 2, they never planned to keep it going forever. 



Dream Brother said:


> _Firefly_ = <3
> 
> Great writing and actors.



Yes indeedy.


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## Lord Yu (May 20, 2009)

As mentioned in the FC. Started a novella. Might turn into a full novel depending on how long it takes for me to think of a plot.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 7, 2009)

It's been a few weeks since this thread was posted in, not sure why really. But it seems that most people around here have stopped writing for some reason or another. I don't get it, summer is the best time for it because you're not forced to go to school and the like. 

The end of my little tale is in sight now. I am writing the final confrontations tonight probably or tomorrow and then there are the loose ends I need to tie up at the end of the story. 

I just realize though, I might have a problem with story climaxes.

How is your novella thing coming Yu? You mentioned it there in that last post but we haven't heard from you about it again (at least not here)


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## Tyrael (Jun 7, 2009)

In a huge writing funk. Not done anything of any real worth for aaaaages.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 7, 2009)

Well you just need to write or edit some more. I think that when we stop writing on one thing for long, it goes sour or something. The urgency I have with this current story is what keeps me going with it. I stop for a while sometimes, but its always in my mind and even now I am plotting out what will happen next.


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## Tyrael (Jun 7, 2009)

Stopping writing for me is pretty much akin to putting a bullet in a project.

Alas, life tends to not care for my needs. And I'm lazy. Mostly lazy.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 7, 2009)

I have been trying to do 1,000 or 2,000 words a day and I don't sleep until I reach the first number. Sometimes that means I am up until 7 AM...but I just feel like I have to get it done


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## Lord Yu (Jun 7, 2009)

I've been having a good ol time writing surreal stuff these past few weeks. I've also identified the strongest section of my story.


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## Sanity Check (Jun 13, 2009)

I have 2 ideas I'm *working on*.  

They're the same ideas I was *working on* a year or 2 ago.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2009)

I am coming close to the end of my novel now, I would say that this is the last 10,000 words or so, possibly less than that.


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## Banhammer (Jun 13, 2009)

I write during math and phisics class, so, not going to school is actually deterimental


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2009)

My rate seems to be the same with or without school.


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## Einstein (Jun 13, 2009)

Since I'm out of school, I'm trying to write something. I actually wrote about 5 chapters of something but decided to quit it. Not because I decided I wasn't "feeling it", like I normally do (thank goodness it wasn't that), but because it contained a lot of action and I didn't think I was writing it well enough D:

So I'm just going to put it aside until I think I'm skilled enough to write action scenes or find someone to write them for me (like co..authoring or w/e) and try to come up with a less action-filled plot before the summer is over.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2009)

I need help with my action scenes but I think I will be revising them after I finish.


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## Einstein (Jun 13, 2009)

I always thought yours were good. For me, it's just that when I think of them they're really fast-paced but when I write them I have a feeling that they're going too slow... like a slow-motion scene in a movie, and I don't want that at all. Ever had that problem?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2009)

I have had trouble with them and it seems that its pretty apparent right now. I did one that was sort of good but in a book this size there's bound to be a few and I want them to at least be decent.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 13, 2009)

Read some martial arts books and watch some MMA or something. Learn how people move in a fight whether wrong or right.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2009)

The thing is that we have guns in the stores and the like, its harder to do that when you have fire arms. I am not so bad at writing hand to hand stuff, also there are dragons and giant demons from time to time, (there was one dragon and it might not even be in this rewrite) its harder to find an example that mixes these things.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 13, 2009)

I'm not talking about just punches and kicks but the art of motion in general.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I'm not talking about just punches and kicks but the art of motion in general.



I get that but the translation to the page is the real problem, I need to read examples of it more than I need to see it because I don't really want huge sweeping fight scenes but I do want them to make sense here and there. 

Movies have some distinct advantages in this part over us, most notably the ability to just show it and to make it sort of like a dance, it would be hard to do that with a novel or story I think.

Then I have to make sure that the positioning of the bodies makes sense and is possible.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 13, 2009)

I don't find it too hard. Seeing as we are not limited by budget we can take our action sequences movies normally can't and evoke powerful and hopefully lasting images with the strength of prose. We can put our audience inside the mind of the character to feel every blow received or thrown or merely perceived. The limit is your mind.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I don't find it too hard. Seeing as we are not limited by budget we can take our action sequences movies normally can't and evoke powerful and hopefully lasting images with the strength of prose. We can put our audience inside the mind of the character to feel every blow received or thrown or merely perceived. The limit is your mind.



Action scenes have to flow and be fast, which is part of the problem because I don't want it to be bogged down by wordy descriptions.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 13, 2009)

It all depends on your style. They don't have to be fast if you don't want them too. Duels can last a long time dependent on the circumstances.


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## Einstein (Jun 13, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> Duels can last a long time dependent on the circumstances.


I was meaning fast as in the speed of the action, not the length of time the battle took itself. It sucks for people to fight for four minutes and you feel like they were going at it for 15. And sense my style of writing is so descriptive and wordy, I don't necessarily know at this point how to "speed it up", unless I were to change my voice completely for that story. 
Maybe that is what I will have to do D:


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2009)

Einstein said:


> I was meaning fast as in the speed of the action, not the length of time the battle took itself. It sucks for people to fight for four minutes and you feel like they were going at it for 15. And sense my style of writing is so descriptive and wordy, I don't necessarily know at this point how to "speed it up", unless I were to change my voice completely for that story.
> Maybe that is what I will have to do D:



That's what I mean, its not the actual time it lasts...its more for the speed the action. There's a certain way I feel like it should go and its just not there yet. Like I said its an editing issue more than it is something I am dealing with now. I am still pushing through till I hit the end.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 13, 2009)

He punched Joel in the face. Joel catches the second blow out of the one two. He grabs on pulls him in for a knee to the stomach and a hard chop to the back of the neck. 
Next one.
Knife in hand. Comes up from below. Left. Joel spins to his right inside the stroke catches the arm and lays a hard one in his diaphragm. Goes down.
Now for number three.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> He punched Joel in the face. Joel catches the second blow out of the one two. He grabs on pulls him in for a knee to the stomach and a hard chop to the back of the neck.
> Next one.
> Knife in hand. Comes up from below. Left. Joel spins to his right inside the stroke catches the arm and lays a hard one in his diaphragm. Goes down.
> Now for number three.



Hm I don't know, it just seems to lack something like that. 

This is my example from a while back in the story: 



> On the counter, covered in onion slices she spotted the cutting board. Without a second thought she grabbed it up emptying the contents onto the counter and running back to Lewis?s aid. She stepped in from the side bumping Lewis and deflecting the next knife blow with the board.
> 
> With the cutting board gripped tight from both ends she used it to parry a series of slashes and deflect them off to the side. Betty was quick though, Holly couldn?t find an opening to counter. She took the initiative and pulled her chest back to dodge one of the slashes and used the cutting board to take a quick hit at Betty?s head.
> 
> ...



   [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]


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## Lord Yu (Jun 13, 2009)

What it lacks is Joel reeling back from the first jab. Your piece seems like too much fluff for my taste.


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## Dream Brother (Jun 13, 2009)

Writing good action scenes can be very fun. 

When I do happen to write one, I try to make my sentences as short and sharp as the actual blows being described. Having experience with martial arts can potentially help _and_ hinder you, in my opinion; many fall prey to the temptation to show off their knowledge with exotic terminology and all sorts of fancy stances, failing to realise that this often detaches rather than engages the reader. 

There are plenty of benefits, however -- getting hit, for example. I'll never forget being knocked down, getting punched in the solar plexus, or the almost effortless way my old master threw me to the floor like a rag-doll during demonstrations. In a genre like fantasy, you often see characters who have supposedly been trained in unarmed combat, but it's rare to find one that _truly_ convinces you. An example of an author who writes great fight scenes is Matthew Stover; this is mainly due to his moderate background in a blend of martial arts. I've also noticed that Martin can write some very good fight scenes at times -- I can't speak for them in terms of _realism_, as I have no experience with swords and other melee weapons, but some of his one on one duels have been fantastic when considering economy and dramatic impact.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 13, 2009)

I've been in my fair share of fights, but none of them were really with skilled fighters and none of them were life or death. I mean I think I have a decent idea of what you mean by the effortlessness with which some things are done when someone has true experience. 

I've tried, in my example above to show something sort of important about the character. While she's trained, she's not the kind to take hits. She's more defending and looking for an opening.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 13, 2009)

I've studied martial arts and boxing forms on my own a bit.


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## Tyrael (Jun 14, 2009)

Funnily enough, I wrote a fight scene (well, a part of one) last night. What you guys reckon?



> The woman darted forward. Jake saw her slip a knife out of her sleeve as she did so. Her opponent, Lexa, moved out of the way with a laziness that belied real agility, and moved towards the doorway, blocking off any escape. If the woman wanted to get to the doorway or broken window, he would be in a prime position to cut her off.  Belatedly, Jake realised it was too late to escape. He was now sandwiched in an increasingly panicked crowd stuffed into the back of the shop.
> 
> Lexa pulled out an axe with a vicious looking head. Swinging it through the air it extended into a full length halberd. It looked to be a collapsible weapon and, in the intensity of the moment, the thought of how clever it was seemed inane enough to be funny. Jake could barely entertain the thought before the fight had began again.
> 
> It was quickly apparent that the long weapon was no use indoors. No momentum was gathering on its swings, so the woman was able to evade it and parry it with only a knife. Her unoccupied hand moved in a blur and Lexa staggered back with a yell. A dart was sticking out of one of his hands. Taking this moment, the woman ran forward, red hair flaring, and dived through the broken window. Cursing, Lexa followed.



Don't like it very much, but I was in that sort of mood when I wrote it.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 14, 2009)

Too fluffy for my taste. I prefer quick, sort of stream of consciousness brutality.


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## Tyrael (Jun 14, 2009)

Problem is, it has to fit in with my writing style. It would be jarring, if it was just minimal. Look at _Harry Potter 7_.

Also, you have to be very careful not to confuse your readers.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jun 14, 2009)

I've finally gone back to writing my novel. My prgoress is stellar, but it is coming along. I've already formed the majority of my plot, have most of my characters, and the various methods for chapter division planned out. I estimate I will finish within the next 2years, or perhaps half that time if I can put substansive amounts of work into each week. In any case, I've noticed two difficulties and bumps I'm having trouble with. 

My main problem at this time is terminology and general lack of veritable knowledge about certain subjects I am writing. My novel is pure sci-fi, and an attempted "high sort" at that. Pieces of literature I would compare it to, strictly in attempted sci-fi terms, are works by  Dan Simmons, Peter Hamilton, and Stark Trek stuff. As can be imagined then, the problem lies in the fact I know little to nothing of quantam physics(etc), or how to properly qualify or quantity some of most of devices and issues I have. I've attempted to look into some of the more complicated stuff, and even relatively minor stuff, but that shit is beyond my understanding. In light of this, should I kind just wing it ? That is to say, just go off that bare minimum stuff I grasp and interject the influences and things I've picked up on from other mediums and works. Argh! I had the same problem when I tried to write a mystery novel about ancient egypitian, christianity, and hinduism mixing into some lone religious empire run by werewovles.

My second problem, which isn't necessarily a problem yet, is that I don't have that many lead characters. I have like 3, maybe 4. All the rest are kind secondary. And I ain't writing no Life of Pi Novel! So I'm thinking I just try and force more character in there...

-
Are we allowed ot post parts of our stuff and get brutually critized by poster's until we hate life ? If so, I'll post samples.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 14, 2009)

It would be hard to do that with mine really, I don't really think I could do the whole string of attacks thing like that either. It would be weird.


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## Tyrael (Jun 14, 2009)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's good to have project in motion-so long as you are consistent, progress can be made pretty easily. As for your problems:

1-By the sounds of it, you are writing a space opera. As far as I know, having a really good grasp of physics and technology is only really necessary if you are doing hard sci-fi. Wing it, and if anything sticks out as unconvincing then go back and do enough research to make it convincing. The key is that you don't know how much you need to know, so presumably the writing will tell you. It should not be that hard to fix such things when you want to edit the thing.

2-Why would you want more characters? Even if it is a galaxy spanning space opera, there does not need to be a great amount of characters. _Dune _had a very small cast for instance.

But yeah, post away. We're pretty lethargic, so it might be fairly difficult to get people crit-ing though.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 14, 2009)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> I've finally gone back to writing my novel. My prgoress is stellar, but it is coming along. I've already formed the majority of my plot, have most of my characters, and the various methods for chapter division planned out. I estimate I will finish within the next 2years, or perhaps half that time if I can put substansive amounts of work into each week. In any case, I've noticed two difficulties and bumps I'm having trouble with.
> 
> My main problem at this time is terminology and general lack of veritable knowledge about certain subjects I am writing. My novel is pure sci-fi, and an attempted "high sort" at that. Pieces of literature I would compare it to, strictly in attempted sci-fi terms, are works by  Dan Simmons, Peter Hamilton, and Stark Trek stuff. As can be imagined then, the problem lies in the fact I know little to nothing of quantam physics(etc), or how to properly qualify or quantity some of most of devices and issues I have. I've attempted to look into some of the more complicated stuff, and even relatively minor stuff, but that shit is beyond my understanding. In light of this, should I kind just wing it ? That is to say, just go off that bare minimum stuff I grasp and interject the influences and things I've picked up on from other mediums and works. Argh! I had the same problem when I tried to write a mystery novel about ancient egypitian, christianity, and hinduism mixing into some lone religious empire run by werewovles.
> 
> ...



I hate to call them space operas. They're just space stories....

But it sounds like an interesting mix of things and like you might have something. If you want to go pure sci-fi are you worried about science so much?

Basically do you want Star Trek or Star Wars?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2009)

Crap I went too far again. Sometimes I can be too cruel too soon.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 15, 2009)

Just when I thought I might have written myself into a corner, I found a way out of it. But it seems that the more I apply real world logic to all of this, the more I will have to go back and correct.

And after the little argument I had over the difference between fantasy and contemporary fiction--I have half a mind to act like these small things don't matter.


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## Buskuv (Jun 15, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> Too fluffy for my taste. I prefer quick, sort of stream of consciousness brutality.



"She turned, slipping the knife from her sash.  Before the man had a chance to understand any of the motions, she had driven the blade into his neck. _ One_.  With one motion she slid the blade from his weeping neck, and quickly stepped to the guard who was drawing his sword.  He was dead before the first man hit the floor.  

_Two.

_The final guard materialized behind her, sword  swinging.  Too late.  She dodged, adroitly, using the motion of her sidestep to drive the blade deep into the clumsy sell-sword.  'Shoulder.'  He cried out, dropping his sword.  'Stomach.'  He let a scream.  'Neck.'  He let out a gurgle, and stumbled, falling to his knees, blood dribbling from his chin.  

'Skull.'

The man fell to the floor, the knife hilt extruding from his face.  

'Three.  Ignorance is certainly not bliss, I'm afraid.'

She left the room, the guard's blood crawling on the thick woodgrain."


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 15, 2009)

Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> "She turned, slipping the knife from her sash.  Before the man had a chance to understand any of the motions, she had driven the blade into his neck. _ One_.  With one motion she slid the blade from his weeping neck, and quickly stepped to the guard who was drawing his sword.  He was dead before the first man hit the floor.
> 
> _Two.
> 
> ...



That's a good mix of the two styles, right there. I like it. 

I just did a short car scene:

Written at 6AM, might be a little off:


*Spoiler*: __ 





> Before Ava had time to react, Dee snatched the wheel towards herself. There was a screech as the car was jarred off into the forest. Dee screamed letting the wheel go and Ava snatched it back into control in time to steer around the trees. For a moment she considered stopping but that idea was crushed when the first of the huge trunks start to fall.
> 
> Racing down the hill through the spaces between the trees, Ava hadn?t thought of where she was going and she couldn?t even think of what was happening. Somehow in this moment of clarity she?d blocked out the screams of the others and the rattle of the earth around her. She guided the vehicle down towards the water at as even a pace as she could manage.
> 
> ...


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## Buskuv (Jun 15, 2009)

lol I just made that up in response to Yu's post, really.

It's not part anything larger, I'm afraid.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2009)

Even though what I did was absolutely horrific. I'm keeping it. Hard made tragedy is not be so easily discarded.


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## Tyrael (Jun 15, 2009)

Chapter 2 is done. Only 9000 words long too.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2009)

Only 9000? Are you sure you didn't go a little...over?


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## Tyrael (Jun 15, 2009)

Oh god.

But yeah, it was 9300(ish). So, yeah, it's over...

I can't say it.

I just can't.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2009)

I couldn't resist


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 15, 2009)

It's over 71,000


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## Buskuv (Jun 15, 2009)

I have none.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 15, 2009)

The Doll and Madman = 56k words
The Fool = 29k words
The Painter = 14k words

So far.


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## m o l o k o (Jun 16, 2009)

I?m currently working on the book I planned to write for almost three years.


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## Einstein (Jun 17, 2009)

I actually can't say how many words my chapters are. I handwrite everything first, then rewrite it on the computer because I've found that I tend to write things better the second time around. It also makes editing easier for me, because I can spot silly mistakes head on.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jun 17, 2009)

Einstein said:


> I actually can't say how many words my chapters are. I handwrite everything first, then rewrite it on the computer because I've found that I tend to write things better the second time around. It also makes editing easier for me, because I can spot silly mistakes head on.



I also tend to do this. I find the double editing is particually good and gives your mind time to confirm or expand your writing. Computers just have too much of a dead feel at times. They're like a shade against pure sunlight: they're wanted and beneficial in the long run but not something you always want in your line of sight. Imo- anytime I find myself stuck with how to resolve a situation or a crisis of direction, I hit paper instead of sit on my ass staring down digital restraint. I don't think anyone can ever really be a good editor of their own pieces. Too much love.

edit: for the hell of it, here's a minor action scene from future chaps mistake and all. that's generally my style.. although I don't think it's a style exactly.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Before Erica could make it all of ten meters, the nameless leader's weapon was ablaze. Splinters exploded upwards and lodged into her leg. Hobbled by pain, she stops, and thinks "he must have hit the ground". She turns to look. His gun is pointed on her. Very lucky he missed she lets herself think, while noticing a blur of movement. 
Janbr is dashing towards the leader wildly with his human shield. His strength is phenomenal. He throws the hostage to one side; and he soars 30 feet like so much air. A wild cry slights from Janbr's lips and he lunges for the leader’s neck and weapon. But despite his speed, he is not fast enough. His hand is batted aside and he’s struck with a blow to the jaw. Rolling with it, he manages to land a reverse knee into the man’s stomach. 
Argh! A bellow of pain escapes him, though he slumps back readying his fist. 
Like lighting, he rains two quick blows with the entirety of his weight behind them.
They’re parried. A feint, Janbr's thinks, as he's feels his air-way recess and his neck locked in grip. 
"Crack"  He’s slammed to the ground, and his attacker falls atop him- his weapon out full, and ready to bruise him. 
"Son of a bitch", janbr manages to let out in gasp as the weapon strikes his sphinx. 
"You’re sloppy. Just because you have some retro-grades in you, or whatever your state uses, doesn’t mean you can match a trained fighter you damned boy". The leader had a furious sneer along his face. One he keep as he continued to strike at Janbr's chest with his weapon. It was brutual; it was violent; and it was long. Blood splattered and bones broke, but Janbr managed to keep concious. Second passed and finally, the onslaught came to an end. He let a smile loose upon his face and muttered

"I never wanted to win. I just wanted to buy-time." 

"Oh! And what good will that do you exactly. It is mere child’s play to secure your friend again. Her leg is all but use-less, and were it still completely functional, she has no where to go. We have sealed off all possible outside forces, and have even jammed communications. The outside world, what little of it you acknowledge that is, see's nothing having happened here at all. " 

"That’s nice. But I’m waiting for the doorman." 

"The dorm- but the leader was cut off as small flashes of light caught  the shine of hies eyes and bursted past him. His reaction was fast though, for he was already on the ground responding in kind with his weapons. 

The doorman had laid waste to a wall on the far side of the room. He was fully armed wearing full plated Azin body-armor. The leader knew immediately they were in for fight. It was just his bad luck, since the armor's capabilities could negate multiple streams of energy and reducing kinetic impacts. But that was not all. The doorman's hands were massive. In them, he held two states-of the art vaporizers and spread on his chest like buttons were various other energy weapons.


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## Einstein (Jun 17, 2009)

Too much love? I go harder on my own work than I do anyone else's. Tough love, I guess 

And what you posted was nice. What is the setting of your story?


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## Studio_Peachboy (Jun 17, 2009)

I'm currently working on my first novel. An epic Samurai tale based on historical events...More information at my blog (The link is in my sig).


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## neko-sennin (Jun 19, 2009)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> I've finally gone back to writing my novel. ... In any case, I've noticed two difficulties and bumps I'm having trouble with.
> 
> My main problem at this time is terminology and general lack of veritable knowledge about certain subjects I am writing. My novel is pure sci-fi, and an attempted "high sort" at that. Pieces of literature I would compare it to, strictly in attempted sci-fi terms, are works by  Dan Simmons, Peter Hamilton, and Stark Trek stuff. As can be imagined then, the problem lies in the fact I know little to nothing of quantam physics(etc), or how to properly qualify or quantity some of most of devices and issues I have. I've attempted to look into some of the more complicated stuff, and even relatively minor stuff, but that shit is beyond my understanding. In light of this, should I kind just wing it ? That is to say, just go off that bare minimum stuff I grasp and interject the influences and things I've picked up on from other mediums and works. Argh! I had the same problem when I tried to write a mystery novel about ancient egypitian, christianity, and hinduism mixing into some lone religious empire run by werewovles.



The chief thing you need to decide is just how "hard" you want your sci-fi. If you opt to go really hard, bear in mind that the Hard Sci-Fi crowd tends to follow scientific research very closely, and totally rip on anything that doesn't have at least theoretical research to back it up. Or you can tone it down a bit for the sake of plot; as long as you don't try to pass yourself off as "hard" then most reasonable folks won't begrudge a little  here and there as long as you have some plausible-sounding pseudo-science to back it up.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the scientific method is a self-correcting process, hypotheses and theories constantly evolving as new evidence and information adds to our collective knowledge and picture of reality. After all, Jules Verne was state-of-the art in his day. 



Cthulhu-versailles said:


> My second problem, which isn't necessarily a problem yet, is that I don't have that many lead characters. I have like 3, maybe 4. All the rest are kind secondary. And I ain't writing no Life of Pi Novel! So I'm thinking I just try and force more character in there...



It's OK to start small and build up. Probably better, in fact, to let your reader get to know a few people before expanding the cast. At the opposite extreme, you have to be careful when you start to reach Wheel of Time / Bleach / Suikoden sized casts of characters, as they get hard to juggle later on.



Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> "She turned, slipping the knife from her sash.  Before the man had a chance to understand any of the motions, she had driven the blade into his neck. _ One_.  With one motion she slid the blade from his weeping neck, and quickly stepped to the guard who was drawing his sword.  He was dead before the first man hit the floor.
> 
> _Two.
> 
> ...





Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> lol I just made that up in response to Yu's post, really.
> 
> It's not part anything larger, I'm afraid.



Now that, my friend, is a tragedy. If I had written such a smooth action scene, even on a whim, I would keep it tucked away, to be adapted in some latter battle scene.



Tyrael said:


> Oh god.
> 
> But yeah, it was 9300(ish). So, yeah, it's over...
> 
> ...



Ty's OVER 9000!!!!

(Sorry, dude, you totally set yourself up for that one.  )



Einstein said:


> I actually can't say how many words my chapters are. I handwrite everything first, then rewrite it on the computer because I've found that I tend to write things better the second time around. It also makes editing easier for me, because I can spot silly mistakes head on.





Cthulhu-versailles said:


> I also tend to do this. I find the double editing is particually good and gives your mind time to confirm or expand your writing. Computers just have too much of a dead feel at times. They're like a shade against pure sunlight: they're wanted and beneficial in the long run but not something you always want in your line of sight. Imo- anytime I find myself stuck with how to resolve a situation or a crisis of direction, I hit paper instead of sit on my ass staring down digital restraint. I don't think anyone can ever really be a good editor of their own pieces. Too much love.



I see I'm not the only one who operates like this. All of my stories start out in notebook form anymore, and have for years, and the second draft is word-processed. I started out doing this a point in my life when I didn't have any regular computer access, but found it added versatility to my work conditions, and, even more importantly, has proven an invaluable tool in combating my own editorial laziness.


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## Clovis15 (Jun 19, 2009)

Well, as some of you have probably already seen on this forum, I am currently working on my first book (or at least the first I intend to finish). It's a fantasy story called "The Vagrant's Tale", so far the first 23 chapters are done. It's about a vagrant warrior named Jysalef Soresh, whom wanders about the land of Corsinthia some time after the end of failed holy war with the neighboring lands of Skrande. What he doesn't realize is that machinations outside of his control are soon about to ensnare his life.

*To CARDBOARD TUBE KNIGHT:*

I thought I had written myself into a corner as well when I hit Chapter 16... amazingly my solution was almost 100% identical to what I had planned to write next all along (I merely changed the framing of it all, and then afterwards had to do some extra clean up). Corners are never as bad as you at first think they are, although they definitely make you freak out when they happen (I know I did). In the end, rethinking something will often get you out of your stnank quite easily (although you might first need an outside source to point out what an idiot you're being, I did...).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2009)

Clovis15 said:


> Well, as some of you have probably already seen on this forum, I am currently working on my first book (or at least the first I intend to finish). It's a fantasy story called "The Vagrant's Tale", so far the first 23 chapters are done. It's about a vagrant warrior named Jysalef Soresh, whom wanders about the land of Corsinthia some time after the end of failed holy war with the neighboring lands of Skrande. What he doesn't realize is that machinations outside of his control are soon about to ensnare his life.
> 
> *To CARDBOARD TUBE KNIGHT:*
> 
> I thought I had written myself into a corner as well when I hit Chapter 16... amazingly my solution was almost 100% identical to what I had planned to write next all along (I merely changed the framing of it all, and then afterwards had to do some extra clean up). Corners are never as bad as you at first think they are, although they definitely make you freak out when they happen (I know I did). In the end, rethinking something will often get you out of your stnank quite easily (although you might first need an outside source to point out what an idiot you're being, I did...).



Well I write myself into corners more often than I would like to but when it happens the story seems to be better for it because often you are forced to come up with creative ways to get back out of it. 

Recently I decided I will have to go back into the story and add extra scenes here and there. But in the end it will make the story a little tighter. When I go back through I am going to try and tighten my narrative. I am hoping that I can cut out needless words and the like.

My goal (right now anyway) is to cut 8,000 words when I go to edit. I have to have 8,000 needless words I can put the ax to.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2009)

I thought I was in a corner because I did something utterly cruel and nightmare inducing to one of my main characters.


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## Clovis15 (Jun 19, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:
			
		

> Well I write myself into corners more often than I would like to but when it happens the story seems to be better for it because often you are forced to come up with creative ways to get back out of it.



Well, I definitely do believe my story was better off for having hit the snag I ran into at the end of chapter 16.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I thought I was in a corner because I did something utterly cruel and nightmare inducing to one of my main characters.



It seems you love to torture these poor people. 



Clovis15 said:


> Well, I definitely do believe my story was better off for having hit the snag I ran into at the end of chapter 16.



Oh yeah, a lot of the time it is. You just have to come up with a fitting, creative, believable way out.


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## Tyrael (Jun 19, 2009)

neko-sennin said:


> Ty's OVER 9000!!!!
> 
> (Sorry, dude, you totally set yourself up for that one.  )



I know. 



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> My goal (right now anyway) is to cut 8,000 words when I go to edit. I have to have 8,000 needless words I can put the ax to.



I'm still somewhat confused as to why you'd cut so much. I've edited about 8000 words of _A Fool's Laughter_, and for every sentence I cut I find that I have to add a new one in. Most is just rephrasing anyway-I've found that I've gained two or three hundred words overall. Unless there are entire scenes that need to go, the goal of cutting out a tenth of your novel is somewhat perplexing.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2009)

I cut so much because I want a tighter narrative with descriptions that reach out without having to be too wordy.


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## Tyrael (Jun 19, 2009)

Well, I've seen your writing, and you're already fairly tight. I'm just wondering where all of these words will come from.

That said, I've not done much to my dialogue yet. I'm going to concentrate on that specifically after I've tidied the prose.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2009)

Adverbs, dangling modifiers, the words "even" and "just", and redundant bullshit that I put in when my mind is absent.


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## Tyrael (Jun 19, 2009)

Dangling modifiers?


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## Noitora (Jun 19, 2009)

I've started a book that I had been planning to write for a year or so, I had the plot thickened out and planned, however I feel I'm having touble with my plot.

At first, I had a number of holes in it, stuffing so many characters into the ongoing story I needed to find a way for them to all fit, which I had at first, they all had a reason and purpose, but upon taking the rest of the novel into consideration, it hit me that some of the characterrs turned into support from the main protagonist. However, I wanted all my characters to have their development and progression, I very much into that style, my novel and writing in general very character and intense action based.

It is a fantasy novel, based in a medieval world, but dashed with different cultures for the places the heroes go to. I was wondering, do these sort of stories still appeal to readers now days. Knights, fantasy and such, or as big names like Lord of the Rings drained it out of everyone?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2009)

The Lord of The Rings kickstarted the interest in those things. What you have described is the typical fantasy setting. Put your own spin on it see what you can do with it.


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## Pan-on (Jun 19, 2009)

Noitora said:


> I've started a book that I had been planning to write for a year or so, I had the plot thickened out and planned, however I feel I'm having touble with my plot.
> 
> At first, I had a number of holes in it, stuffing so many characters into the ongoing story I needed to find a way for them to all fit, which I had at first, they all had a reason and purpose, but upon taking the rest of the novel into consideration, it hit me that some of the characterrs turned into support from the main protagonist. However, I wanted all my characters to have their development and progression, I very much into that style, my novel and writing in general very character and intense action based.
> 
> It is a fantasy novel, based in a medieval world, but dashed with different cultures for the places the heroes go to. I was wondering, do these sort of stories still appeal to readers now days. Knights, fantasy and such, or as big names like Lord of the Rings drained it out of everyone?



judging from the message under your name you know about the more recent fantasy books which would be more likely to be a problem for new fantasy writers, i.e WoT as well as AsOIaF and others.

Not to say they ruined the market, there is still a market there but you have to be doing something interesting, I can almost guarentee that something comparible to Jordan won't do well now because Jordan done that style in such a way that anything coming after him is going to end up lacking in scale at least. 

You have more of a market if you are writing in the grittier style of Martin or Abercrombie, but really it all depends on whether your writing is new and interesting enough to break out of the mold.

My advice in terms of your plot is to perhaps remove a couple of characters or play down their roles, you can always write short stories from their PoV later so don't get rid of them completely. If you have too many characters all being important to the plot it get confusing and very slow which is usually a problem.

That said everything is relative, if you can pull off a fast paced exciting and interesting plot with 20 main characters do it, that could be your interesting feature.


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## Noitora (Jun 19, 2009)

Anon said:


> judging from the message under your name you know about the more recent fantasy books which would be more likely to be a problem for new fantasy writers, i.e WoT as well as AsOIaF and others.
> 
> Not to say they ruined the market, there is still a market there but you have to be doing something interesting, I can almost guarentee that something comparible to Jordan won't do well now because Jordan done that style in such a way that anything coming after him is going to end up lacking in scale at least.
> 
> ...



That was my fear, Wheel of Time. Robert Jordan created something thats hard to follow, if you are trying to actually follow it. 

That was my idea, I hope to create this fast pace and action fueled story, still with the plot being addressed and characters progressing. When I first started, I got the feeling I was being dragged into the Wheel of Time cookpot, since I had only recently gotten through them and my mind was still dabbling over his style of writing, so I pulled away from it.

Darker with some black humour in it, starring it with a woman. I wanted to bring in a selection of cultures as well, from the style of Knights, to samurai-like characters to mages and demons, a whole selection to pick from, but with gore and dark moments, as well as lighter ones, giving more hope for and to my heroes.

However, I do still feel I am tap dancing a little too close to Robert Jordan, perhaps with the idea of the hero destined for more, etc. and I'll work to nudge myself closer and closer to the middle of the circle called "My personal style". I mean, I am still young, I have alot of time to place it all together.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2009)

I sometimes wonder where market is. Weaboos? Gorehounds? Gamers? Probably stoners.


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## Noitora (Jun 19, 2009)

Gamers, I'd assume.


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## Pan-on (Jun 19, 2009)

Noitora said:


> That was my fear, Wheel of Time. Robert Jordan created something thats hard to follow, if you are trying to actually follow it.
> 
> That was my idea, I hope to create this fast pace and action fueled story, still with the plot being addressed and characters progressing. When I first started, I got the feeling I was being dragged into the Wheel of Time cookpot, since I had only recently gotten through them and my mind was still dabbling over his style of writing, so I pulled away from it.
> 
> ...



Yeah I know the feeling of almost copying something you have been reading style wise.

But yeah if you plan a long fantasy series like that there will be inevitable comparisons

if you are going to do something similar, i would do things to make it stand apart, like if you are using prophecy let them find out the prophecy is actually completely made up or something.


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## Noitora (Jun 19, 2009)

Anon said:


> Yeah I know the feeling of almost copying something you have been reading style wise.
> 
> But yeah if you plan a long fantasy series like that there will be inevitable comparisons
> 
> if you are going to do something similar, i would do things to make it stand apart, *like if you are using prophecy let them find out the prophecy is actually completely made up or something*.



I had something like that in mind. I intended to have this whole belief system, like religion, which would turn out to be fabricated by a certain collection of people. Heroes unveil this then of course are struck by the question, was it the right thing to do?

I planned on three parts most likely, with character perspectives, mostly focused on the prime protagonist, but other characters have their moments which fits the story together.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2009)

I personally hold to the Scott Lynch view of Prophecy. I don't like to bother with it. It feels cheap to me. 

I know about aping. Sometimes I feel my novella is a little close to Perdido Street Station.


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## Clovis15 (Jun 19, 2009)

I know some of my earlier chapters could definitely use some unecessary word removal, although I doubt it's anywhere near to being 9000 words that would get cut.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2009)

You know what. Given this new age of marketing. I might just post my novel on the internets as a web novel. That way I control marketing and I can build an internets fanbase so publishing companies will seek me and I'll have better control over my property.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 19, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I know about aping. Sometimes I feel my novella is a little close to Perdido Street Station.



Really?

Awesome.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2009)

Well more at one point than sometimes. It might be my neurosis again.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2009)

Anon said:


> Yeah I know the feeling of almost copying something you have been reading style wise.
> 
> But yeah if you plan a long fantasy series like that there will be inevitable comparisons
> 
> if you are going to do something similar, i would do things to make it stand apart, *like if you are using prophecy let them find out the prophecy is actually completely made up or something.*



That's straight out of Angel. 

There's nothing lame about prophecy, you just have to use it in an unexpected way. Keep your prophecies vague first off, but make them cryptic and relevant. 

For instance, in Sword of Truth. It says the Seeker will use the book of counted shadows on his quest. Well he does, he tosses it in a fire so no one can steal it. He used it, didn't say how he would.


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## Noitora (Jun 19, 2009)

One thing, I'm not one for researching largely, to represent my characters and their names to history, I like things to mainly come from my imagination. Of course, there will be things you can compare with history and real world legends.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2009)

I pull characters mostly from aspects of my personality. Side characters also come from my various obsessions and interests.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2009)

I'm a big research person I guess but at the same time I like to make stuff up. Its a mixed bag I guess, because most writers probably have to do both.


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## Einstein (Jun 19, 2009)

Research..blah. I hate doing it, which is why a lot of my story ideas don't turn into stories. The only thing I've actually done research for is what I'm working on now, and it wasn't really researching but instead reading a book of the Bible... and honestly, I didn't even do that all the way through lol.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2009)

I do vague research mostly on the Japanese aspects of my story. I'm thinking about doing some research on guns. I already have plenty on explosives. Despite writing fantasy I like to back my work with science.


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## Noitora (Jun 19, 2009)

I had to do some of cultures a little, as well as swords, Templars, but I've tried to limit as much as I can. Most my characters names simply came off the top of my head.


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## Einstein (Jun 19, 2009)

I like to choose my character's names by their meanings, though it honestly doesn't matter whether the reader knows this or not. 

ex: a character's name is Esben, which means God, and in the story he is trying to become a "god" in a sense. 

It really makes no difference if the reader knows Esben means God, it just helps me come up with a name.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2009)

Some of my characters have meaning to their names some don't. 

One of my main characters is named Gohei which can be written as Soldier in Japanese and that's his occupation and his surname is Kanahara which can be written as Golden Meadow, his eyes are golden.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2009)

My characters are just named random shit...my only criteria is that their names don't exceed a certain letter amount. I don't feel like typing out long names. 

But I have Ava, Lewis, Holly, Stroud, Virgil and Pellegri as some of the more mentioned names. I might change Virgil because its hard to type lol.


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## Clovis15 (Jun 19, 2009)

Somes name for people, places, or terms I have used includes:

Terus Kyreon, Jysalef Soresh, Miran Via, Belfahndres, Elpsiod, Kyosem, Dulsnik, Dolskum, Naun'tkch, Draezooh'nyawc, Dansk'sgou, Reoisce'aihr, Tallus Osmaard, Gulosc, Konik, Stalson, Glein, Corsinthia, Skrande, Leeoka, Feldwop

None of those really mean much of anything at all...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2009)

I've had fun making up words for an Angelic Language. 

Sal'nnie!

That means hello, actually I just threw some letters together with a apostrophe


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## Noitora (Jun 19, 2009)

I actually created an entire language as well, its graceful but primitive, since it's an old language, then then common (English) was crafted off it, but people from one nation do speak a Japanese word from time to time.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2009)

Hurolaija

Is how you say welcome in the Deyul language. I've toyed with imaginary languages but I mostly mine them for names. I have about 4 made up languages.


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## Tyrael (Jun 19, 2009)

I don't have anywhere near the linguistic skill to make up a language.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 19, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> I don't have anywhere near the linguistic skill to make up a language.



Most of the words in the Angelic or Demonic tongues are just one or two word commands given, so its light in my case


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## Noitora (Jun 19, 2009)

It is bloody difficult, I used the english alphabet, created symbols for each word, then gave each a sounding, then put them together in words.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2009)

The last work I did on my languages was the letters I was going to omit.


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## Buskuv (Jun 19, 2009)

I think I've got an idea that I am interested in enough to write a book with--well, more characters right now than plot, but still good.

Is it pretentious that I'm drawing from stuff like JTHM, Perdido Street Station, Grendel, Mistborn at the same time?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 19, 2009)

It can't be more pretentious than me. I'm drawing from Danielewski and Nabokov.


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## Chee (Jun 20, 2009)

I'm having trouble sitting down and just write.

I write a little bit, and then I overanalyze my work and then I just can't work on it anymore so I stop...do you guys get that problem as well and if so how do you overcome it?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 20, 2009)

Hey, Chee is back.


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## Noitora (Jun 20, 2009)

Hello there.

When I do the same thing, Chee, I just try to roll with what I'm writing, focus on what to do next, before looking back onto my work. If I feel like I need some changes, I'll throw them up. Best thing to do is trust your instincts and not nit pick, that comes at the end.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 20, 2009)

I'm still thinking that there are some perfectly good subplots that I passed over.


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## Chee (Jun 20, 2009)

Good advice Noi. Need. To. Work. D:



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Hey, Chee is back.



*leaves*


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 20, 2009)

Well I had wondered where you were Chee.


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## Chee (Jun 20, 2009)

Always in the movie section...and I was in LA for a couple of days...


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## Clovis15 (Jun 20, 2009)

I had a friend who get a great idea, write a single chapter, and then rewrite that single chapter into oblivion because he didn't want to continue until the idea was perfect. The goal, I think, is to instead keep pushing forward. If you think you could have done something better, save it for the next chapter... or even the next book. If you revise yourself into oblivion, you'll never have anything to show for yourself.

How many times would you say the first episode of a show, or a tv series, was actually the best part of it?

If you think something was a mistake, remember the wonderful art of retcon writing. You don't have to rewrite the mistake to fix it.


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## neko-sennin (Jun 20, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I personally hold to the Scott Lynch view of Prophecy. I don't like to bother with it. It feels cheap to me.



Yeah, I know what you mean. Prophecies and "Chosen One" characters just seem to suck the suspense out of most stories. As much as I enjoy Naruto, one of my principal beefs with the manga in the last year or so has been...


*Spoiler*: _WARNING! MANGA SPOILERS!_ 



...this whole Child of Prophecy crap. While the Lost Lore of the Uchihas certainly feels at times like it's being revealed a little late in the game, and only the reveal that Konoha was the origin of the Five Great villages keeps Akatsuki's Konoha-centric origins from making Konoha the center of the entire shinobi world from being a total cop-out. (Whereas I rather liked Pain's "Wrath of the Lesser Villages" angle, and originally thought it was pretty cool that such a powerful organization was run by someone who wasn't from one of the Big Five...) On the other hand, the series got along just fine without the Prophecy and Naruto having to be some kind of Ninja Savior, his accomplishments and struggles were no less epic and the series could easily have continued without it. No matter how many times I read those parts, it still feels like Kishimoto pulled the Prophecy out of his ass...[/rant]




At least with WoT, prophecy is treated, not as an absolute guarantee, but as "prerequisite" for something to be possible. With each prophecy of the Dragon he fulfills, Rand gains weapons, allies and other assets that position him so that he has a fighting change against the Dark One, rather than assuring victory.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> There's nothing lame about prophecy, you just have to use it in an unexpected way. Keep your prophecies vague first off, but make them cryptic and relevant.



It can work sometimes, but the Millennium Wangst of the 90's and 2000's, both in popular culture and real-life religious nuts, burned me out on it a long time ago. What gets especially annoying is when you get "random" characters who turn out not to be random at all, but were "drawn" or "preordained" or some crap, because it just makes everything feel as if it's all on rails, and has been decided beforehand, and the characters don't really have any say in how they live their own lives.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> For instance, in Sword of Truth. It says the Seeker will use the book of counted shadows on his quest. Well he does, he tosses it in a fire so no one can steal it. He used it, didn't say how he would.



...Or how the abuse of prophecy and legends on the ignorant masses totally backfired on the Bene Gesserit in Dune.  Though in my case, about the only time I ever made much use of prophecy was in the Book of Hondo, being a religious/epic parody, it had to be there. Most of the screwy pseudo-poetry in Tha Book of Flavor Flav were prophecies for the rest of the Book, most of which were "fulfilled" in bizarre, abstract or subtle ways.

Otherwise, I shun prophecy in my stories. Even the so-called Book of Fate's predictions are not absolute, at best only seeming to ring up the most likely outcome of a given situation. And, as for main characters, there is no Chosen One. Even Max, who's the son of a well-traveled adventurer, doesn't fit the bill. In his travels, he won't find statues of his father in town squares, or come across people who foretold that "the Son of Robert" is going to save the world, or some such nonsense, though he may meet a few people who remember meeting his old man back in the day, as he was just an adventurer. In Justin's case, he's the Orphan, but I've never attempted to make up anything resembling an origin for him; even if he ever catching up with the _Skerry_, that ship he stowed away on for a while as a boy, even they don't know where he came from, or if Justin Black is even his real name. At this point, I plan to leave him a mystery, but even if I did decide later to reveal his background, don't expect him to be long-lost royalty, or any of that Elitist garbage; he's just a streetrat "rising above his station" by his own merits, on his own terms. The same way Shades is just an ordinary high school student who has gotten mixed up in extraordinary events; even his latent psychic abilities don't come from being the distant descendant of some ancient bloodline or anything-- of course, the way I see it, even those Legendary Lineages had to start _somewhere_, right?



Lord Yu said:


> You know what. Given this new age of marketing. I might just post my novel on the internets as a web novel. That way I control marketing and I can build an internets fanbase so publishing companies will seek me and I'll have better control over my property.



You know, between here and Fictionpress (and, more recently, the newly resurrected Pennywisdom board), that's kinda what I've been doing for the last year or so. Audience-focused editing and revision, putting my ear to the ground for interest, and attempting to build up an actual audience (I daresay "fanbase" is entirely too ambitious at this stage of the game), and continue refining my characters, plot and storytelling with real-time feedback. For now, I intend to continue with the online approach, though if anything actually became worth the price of a book in enough people's eyes, I might add it as an alternate form. But I think I'm starting to like this format too much to just give it up; it gives me total creative control, removes all barriers (physical, economic, political, social, etc) between my work and my audience, and, in the long run, allows me to build up a solid audience and pursue my craft on my own terms.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 20, 2009)

I must say fanbase because my arrogance demands it. Plus I have a dead fanclub on this forum.

I must admit(Or rather just remembered) I do have some prophecy. But I don't have any chosen ones.


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## Tyrael (Jun 20, 2009)

I have a chosen one in _A Fool's Laughter_. Actually, I have two, but that kind of goes into the overarching heritance sequence.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 20, 2009)

The Calendar I have in my world is supposed to end at the Death of a God.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 20, 2009)

I think you guys need to draw some distinction between using prophecy and using it badly. I am a writer who uses prophecy here and there. Is it written in stone? Not necessarily. 

What you all have seen has been the overworking of an idea. You're a witness to years and years of people using a device in the wrong way. In my writing, I use sparingly at and I try to use them wisely. Anyone can quote a billion examples where something was used badly in literature, movies, TV or games. 

Of course they can. There's so much out there and natural order states that quality works on a pyramid, there are fewer fantastic examples than there are horrible ones. Prophecy in several shows, such as _Angel_ and _Supernatural_ is well done. Relatively well handled in Buffy too, although the show is shit after the first three years. And in _Legend of the Seeker_, which turned out better than I would. 

Some of the best movies, games and books out there use prophecy, _Star Wars, _the first _Matrix _(fuck the other ones), apparently _Dune_ uses it, _Lord of the Rings _(the books), H.P. Lovecraft's classic _Call of Cthulu, _(video games) _Legacy of Kain_, _Final Fantasies 1-4 _are all about Heroes of Light prophecies, _Final Fantasy VII _is all foretold by the play _Loveless_--its heavily used in anime, the first one that comes to mind is _Evangelion _and its use of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Frankly I think its stupid to talk down about something simply because its used wrong some of the time. I mean if everyone in the world was trying to use a fillips head screwdriver on a flat head hole or the back side of a hammer to nail things down, does that make the tool bad or the wielder? 

In my own writing, Prophecy has a place in the narrative. Some biblical ones sneak their way in but for the most part they come from books that some of the character possess and some scrolls written in demonic languages. Most of my prophecy deals with the coming of the Sealed One and some rituals being done. 

But I'm just starting to work out the details of that because in the first book hardly any of it is mentioned. Prophecy doesn't have to even be specific, its best left widely interpretable so it can be bent or played with later. If every prophecy you write into your book turns out to be lies then I doubt a reader would ever care what they have to say.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jun 20, 2009)

Einstein said:


> Too much love? I go harder on my own work than I do anyone else's. Tough love, I guess
> 
> And what you posted was nice. What is the setting of your story?



Others could go harder, trust me. 

Settings: 
Milky-way Galaxy in 6 solar systems where 4 are part of a Galactic Empire who uphold laws related to quantum buisness in the name of a far mor connected humanity then ever before. 



neko-sennin said:


> The chief thing you need to decide is just how "hard" you want your sci-fi. If you opt to go really hard, bear in mind that the Hard Sci-Fi crowd tends to follow scientific research very closely, and totally rip on anything that doesn't have at least theoretical research to back it up. Or you can tone it down a bit for the sake of plot; as long as you don't try to pass yourself off as "hard" then most reasonable folks won't begrudge a little  here and there as long as you have some plausible-sounding pseudo-science to back it up.
> 
> The other thing to keep in mind is that the scientific method is a self-correcting process, hypotheses and theories constantly evolving as new evidence and information adds to our collective knowledge and picture of reality. After all, Jules Verne was state-of-the art in his day.



Sounds like I should be a softy. one of my crucial issues is extremly close to 'wave function collapse', and wherther the idea of quantum decoherence should be embraced once it is reached or exposed as a governing force of free-will by 'higher powers'.



Chee said:


> I'm having trouble sitting down and just write.
> 
> I write a little bit, and then I overanalyze my work and then I just can't work on it anymore so I stop...do you guys get that problem as well and if so how do you overcome it?



What kind of stuff are you trying to write? Because I think overanalzing is good if you're trying to be highly symoblic or profound. That said, if you're just going back and fretting about sentence structure or more minor stuff, I'd recommend a run through. That is, try writing a short story where you give yourself a set number of pages you're goign to write. Write it and don't look back. Then do the same thign but be anal until you drop. Afterwords you could, I dunno, compare one to the other and see if all that analysis is fundamental to your wirting or just holding back your original ideas. Imo_ I had the same problem before, and now I only go back after I wrote a bunch more and just accept that my work isn't going to be perfect. 

---

I'd love to give adv or something on fantasy and procphecy, but I've never read a modern fanatsy novel.


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## Pan-on (Jun 21, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I think you guys need to draw some distinction between using prophecy and using it badly. I am a writer who uses prophecy here and there. Is it written in stone? Not necessarily.
> 
> What you all have seen has been the overworking of an idea. You're a witness to years and years of people using a device in the wrong way. In my writing, I use sparingly at and I try to use them wisely. Anyone can quote a billion examples where something was used badly in literature, movies, TV or games.
> 
> ...



I don't doubt it can be used well, and I often wanted to use it when I was younger but I don't really like it anymore.

Why? Well why bother with it? It just seems lazy to me. Look at your character's motivations.

Why is your character trying to save the world or whatever, becasue its phophecised, its destiny. That seems lazy to me, somerthing a writer can put because they could not think of a better reason.

Chosen ones as well, it just elevated characters above everyone else, but for what reason? To explain why the henchmen don't hit them? I dunno I just dislike it usually, yes it can be done well but I don't think it bring enough to the table to warrent itself.


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## Tyrael (Jun 21, 2009)

Anon said:


> I don't doubt it can be used well, and I often wanted to use it when I was younger but I don't really like it anymore.
> 
> Why? Well why bother with it? *It just seems lazy to me. Look at your character's motivations.*
> 
> ...



That's using prophecy badly. Something that uses prophecy well:

Case point 1: _Legacy of Kain_

The _Legacy of Kain_ series is about the main character(Kain)'s attempts to manipulate and escape from prophecy. The whole point is that Kain wants more than what the prophecies say-they require his eventual sacrifice-and looks to find some way to escape. The thing is, the prophecies seem to be horrendously complex and convoluted, and more than once it is suggested that they are not as definitive as he suspects them to be.

The key is that Kain is a heavily fatalistic character, due to the way he has been manipulated ever since he was resurrected (yeah, dude is a vampire-doesn't sparkle though). It is often implied that Kain puts so much stock in the prophecy because of his fatalistic nature, and is so obsessed with it that he may almost be validating it by his obsession (a bit of a Macbeth nod that one). It begs the question-if he were to ignore the prophecy would it have any power over him?

The second protagonist, Raziel explores the same(ish) themes.

I think that, alone, justifies the existence of prophecies in fantasy. Talking about it being cheap or lazy presumes that it cannot be used well.


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## Pan-on (Jun 21, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> That's using prophecy badly. Something that uses prophecy well:
> 
> Case point 1: _Legacy of Kain_
> 
> ...



Of course porphecy can be used well, especailly when it the focus, but if you are just putting it into a story for no other purpose than to have a reason stuff is happening then its not used properly.

But even using it properly, is it really that interesting to watch someone battle fate in such an obvious way? It has been done so many times it just bores me a little, you can do the same thing without having to say "you will be king if such and such" Thomas Hardy elicites the same responce simply by having his characters have a fatal flaw and that driving them, rather than a prophecy.

I just don't enjoy reading about "chosen ones" anymore, I have read enough things where it is done that I would rather it not be present.


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## Einstein (Jun 21, 2009)

Prophecies are nice, I guess, but still.. I, myself, don't really like when things happen in a pre-determined way, that's like.. cheating to me. xP I just like character to get where they are by themselves, not because of fate/destiny/BS was going to put them there regardless. Idk, I just put a lot into characters, and with prophecies, you can honestly put _any_ character in the prophecy you want to, because the same thing is going to happen to them.

/random interjection


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## Tyrael (Jun 21, 2009)

^Ah, but my point is that does not need to be true. If used well, then characters matter a lot, as do setting, back story, and stuff.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 21, 2009)

Anon said:


> I don't doubt it can be used well, and I often wanted to use it when I was younger but I don't really like it anymore.
> 
> Why? Well why bother with it? It just seems lazy to me. Look at your character's motivations.
> 
> ...



Your confusing prophecy and character motivation, honestly most things I see with prophecies in them, the character doesn't even want to believe it for the longest time or they have their doubts. 

I don't know where you're getting all of this about henchmen--I mean taking bad story examples and using them to tell me why prophecy is bad really only tells me that you're watching or reading the wrong things with prophecy. 

If it was lazily written, its going to be lazily written all of the time more than likely. 



Einstein said:


> Prophecies are nice, I guess, but still.. I, myself, don't really like when things happen in a pre-determined way, that's like.. cheating to me. xP I just like character to get where they are by themselves, not because of fate/destiny/BS was going to put them there regardless. Idk, I just put a lot into characters, and with prophecies, you can honestly put _any_ character in the prophecy you want to, because the same thing is going to happen to them.
> 
> /random interjection



Who says they have to come true, that's the thing about writing, its your world. 

Or who says that the translation of the prophecy only has one meaning? A lot of the ones in Angel had two meanings and a lot of them were also made up by this being who could time travel in an attempt to play the good guys into his hands.


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## Pan-on (Jun 21, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Your confusing prophecy and character motivation, honestly most things I see with prophecies in them, the character doesn't even want to believe it for the longest time or they have their doubts.
> 
> I don't know where you're getting all of this about henchmen--I mean taking bad story examples and using them to tell me why prophecy is bad really only tells me that you're watching or reading the wrong things with prophecy.
> 
> If it was lazily written, its going to be lazily written all of the time more than likely.



im not confusing character motivation and prophecy, im saying i would rather see good character motivation than prophecy.

The henchman thing was an example, doesnt matter if its not great.

And your first point, basically all prophecy stories the character either refuses to believe the prophecy and ends up fulfilling it anyway, or becomes so obsessed with it that he fulfills it because of this, and they tend to end with either the prophecy being fulfilled despite what they did  or the character finding some loophole.

Basically I have read things where prophecy was used pretty well, but im bored of it, its been done a lot and iv never been surprised by or interested by it.

By all means use prophecy and prove me wrong, but you would have to do something very interesting with it.

Anyway I had this arguemnt with Tyrael already today, so I will leave it at that.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 21, 2009)

Anon said:


> im not confusing character motivation and prophecy, im saying i would rather see good character motivation than prophecy.
> 
> The henchman thing was an example, doesnt matter if its not great.
> 
> ...




Cliches are things used over and over again like this that we sometimes get tired of. But my prophecy so far wasn't anything about the good guys, it was just about a creature breaking out, and it came true already. But it was more like instructions on when and how to get him out than when he would be out.


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## Pan-on (Jun 21, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Cliches are things used over and over again like this that we sometimes get tired of. But my prophecy so far wasn't anything about the good guys, it was just about a creature breaking out, and it came true already. But it was more like instructions on when and how to get him out than when he would be out.



But this is what I don't understand, why have it at all? Why not just have the creature appear and then the characters deal with it? What does the prophecy bring to this other than a handy way of explaining how they knew what to do ?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 21, 2009)

Anon said:


> But this is what I don't understand, why have it at all? Why not just have the creature appear and then the characters deal with it? What does the prophecy bring to this other than a handy way of explaining how they knew what to do ?



Because then it just seems random...when you have something just pop out of nowhere right where the characters are? How would they know where to even be? And how would they know what was going on?


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## Lord Yu (Jun 21, 2009)

Depends on the context of the scene. A giant doomsday beast doesn't always have to be prophesied.


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## Pan-on (Jun 21, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Because then it just seems random...when you have something just pop out of nowhere right where the characters are? How would they know where to even be? And how would they know what was going on?



It's called coincidence, or perhaps he was unleashed by someone to attack the party, or they were in its lair and accidently unleashed it.

You could have earthquakes eminating from the place the beast was, or smaller minions unleashed first leading back to it, there are any number of other far more interesting reasons for them to find it.

As for them knowing what is going on, do they really need to? Imagine WoT if Rand had no idea what the fuck was going on, that would be pretty interesting, you could explore how the character deals with no knowledge, and something is always scarier when it is mysterious.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 21, 2009)

I like to establish such a logic. A nightmare logic where the most horrible things can happen.


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## Dream Brother (Jun 21, 2009)

As far as I'm concerned, the effective use of prophecy in fiction simply comes down to individual execution, like everything else. I'm not too keen on it usually, to be honest, but I acknowledge that it can be used well in the hands of a skilled author -- for example, if a writer uses the cliché conventions associated with prophecy to set the reader up for a big twist later (a feint, in other words) then I would naturally be interested. I doubt I'll be using it myself, though.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 21, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> Depends on the context of the scene. A giant doomsday beast doesn't always have to be prophesied.



The prophecy played into history too. Like saying that the word "Croatoan" wasn't just a word carved in a tree at Roanoke, but is actually a ritual and that the word is a demonic word that was humanized into that pronunciation. 

Its all about foreshadowing, already the entire town has vanished where this ritual is taking place, then this word is being used in connection with these dreams someone is having about all of this stuff. All of it plays together to say something about the characters. 

prophecy doesn't drive everything, but it foreshadows some, and then I also am going to have a small parallel between it and some other source. But that source shall be nameless! 



Anon said:


> It's called coincidence, or perhaps he was unleashed by someone to attack the party, or they were in its lair and accidently unleashed it.
> 
> You could have earthquakes eminating from the place the beast was, or smaller minions unleashed first leading back to it, there are any number of other far more interesting reasons for them to find it.
> 
> As for them knowing what is going on, do they really need to? Imagine WoT if Rand had no idea what the fuck was going on, that would be pretty interesting, you could explore how the character deals with no knowledge, and something is always scarier when it is mysterious.



Coincidence is also something that plays a part, but too many coincidences seems sloppy too. Its the same argument for lazy writing. All these random things happen and its all just like the character knows what's happening and doesn't have any real reason, its just random. 

And while random does occur, its the kind of random that's realistically random, not just that they would know this thing is coming by all the signs alone. Earthquakes happen EVERYDAY.


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## Pan-on (Jun 21, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The prophecy played into history too. Like saying that the word "Croatoan" wasn't just a word carved in a tree at Roanoke, but is actually a ritual and that the word is a demonic word that was humanized into that pronunciation.
> 
> Its all about foreshadowing, already the entire town has vanished where this ritual is taking place, then this word is being used in connection with these dreams someone is having about all of this stuff. All of it plays together to say something about the characters.
> 
> ...



Doesn't have to be coincidence, they could get tricked into going there by the person unleashing the thing.

earthquakes only happen every day in certain places, even then every day is a stretch, it doesn't have to be an earthquake, any sort of unusual event happening repeatedly and people will want to know whats up. Your characters could be sent to find out what it is.

And if having the characters be there when it happens is too big of coincidence, then the fact that the characters are even alive at the same time as this thing is being unleashed (im presuming its some sort of ancient monster or something) is a coincidence in itself. Life is full of coincidence, one more isnt going to break the suspension of disbelief in a story that has a giant ancient monster anyway.

I dunno, I suppose there is nothing wrong with prophecising it but it just seems the easy way out to me, rather than some sort of created scenario. Its all in the execution I guess.


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## Tyrael (Jun 21, 2009)

Anon said:


> Its all in the execution I guess.



This is my position on everything.

And deny all allegations.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 21, 2009)

I enjoy reading a good prophecy story but I hate writing it.


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## Banhammer (Jun 21, 2009)

Ok, y'all are talented-ish writers right?

Somebody write me a plot please. Preferaby one I can turn into a methaphor


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## Luckyday (Jun 21, 2009)

Hey guys. I have a cool (maybe not a cool:sweat) idea for a Romintic Comedy genre. 
Ok so here the plot: social awkward boy falls for popular girl and one day tried to ask her out on a date. She turns him down on account her sexual orientation, but seeing how the guy is really sweet, she feel compels to help the poor guy out and land a girlfriend.

Now, don't feel afraid tell me that the idea stupid. I can handle criticism.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 21, 2009)

I had an idea just like that once. Except the girl he had a crush on had a girlfriend. The guy and the girl instead become fast friends. Hilarity ensues.

I even have a title. 

Ho shit! Team up!(Not the title. Just an offer)


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## Luckyday (Jun 21, 2009)

I guess the idea not really original. <_<;


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 22, 2009)

Anon said:


> Doesn't have to be coincidence, they could get tricked into going there by the person unleashing the thing.
> 
> earthquakes only happen every day in certain places, even then every day is a stretch, it doesn't have to be an earthquake, any sort of unusual event happening repeatedly and people will want to know whats up. Your characters could be sent to find out what it is.
> 
> ...



What you seem to fail to understand that all scenarios could be done badly and thus be the easy way out. To actually make them go there just because of a few odd events would be hard because they're FBI and the FBI generally stick to their region of the country. Everything is set up to lead towards this event. The prophecy comes after its started, but basically lets them know what's going on. 

I want them to know what's going on because its not like that can really stop it and they don't even really know what's coming. I also plan to go back and tighten up all the references to the prophecy and the like. My characters have motivation that has nothing to do with the prophecy, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be there or that it won't be useful in the long run.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 22, 2009)

Luckyday said:


> I guess the idea not really original. <_<;



Nothing is original.


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## Clovis15 (Jun 22, 2009)

The concept of originality is a romantic myth that many like to hold on to at first, it will only bring them quite a great deal of frustration until they move past it.


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## Pan-on (Jun 22, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> What you seem to fail to understand that all scenarios could be done badly and thus be the easy way out. *To actually make them go there just because of a few odd events would be hard because they're FBI and the FBI generally stick to their region of the country*. Everything is set up to lead towards this event. The prophecy comes after its started, but basically lets them know what's going on.
> 
> I want them to know what's going on because its not like that can really stop it and they don't even really know what's coming. I also plan to go back and tighten up all the references to the prophecy and the like. My characters have motivation that has nothing to do with the prophecy, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be there or that it won't be useful in the long run.



well the easy way of fixing that is have it happen in their area of the country, or have them called in to deal with something to do with it. Anyway im not suggesting you change it, I just think all these things are just as good if not better and more interesting reasons than prophecy.

I don't fail to understand it, I have said it's all about the execution at least twice, but I just don't find prophecy interesting, you can say its all about the scenario but until someone shows me a new interesting way of using it I will continue to dislike it as a tool.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 22, 2009)

I've invoked this trope. I have over 20 important characters in The Painter alone. Not all with their own subplot though.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 22, 2009)

Anon said:


> well the easy way of fixing that is have it happen in their area of the country, or have them called in to deal with something to do with it. Anyway im not suggesting you change it, I just think all these things are just as good if not better and more interesting reasons than prophecy.
> 
> I don't fail to understand it, I have said it's all about the execution at least twice, but I just don't find prophecy interesting, you can say its all about the scenario but until someone shows me a new interesting way of using it I will continue to dislike it as a tool.



I want the events to not happen all in one spot, striving to not do that at all really. 

The idea that someone thinks prophecy is bad just because people write a few bad ones just seems silly. I see badly written common ideas all the time.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 23, 2009)

So, a new topic?


How about scale?


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## Bluebeard (Jun 23, 2009)

Although I probably won't start writing a book for years; I've got a decent idea.

It's basically like House and E.R with magic.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 23, 2009)

Ornery Clerics sleeping with each other?


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## Pan-on (Jun 23, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I want the events to not happen all in one spot, striving to not do that at all really.
> 
> The idea that someone thinks prophecy is bad just because people write a few bad ones just seems silly. I see badly written common ideas all the time.



I dislike it as a tool because that tool has been used in the same way every time I have read it, until it is used in a new way I will continue to dislike it.

I'm not going to start liking something because it has the potential to be interesting, I would rather use my time reading something that is actually interesting.

Would you like fantasy if everything was just like the later goodkind books? Of course not (I hope) you would rather people did something different until someone came along who could actually revive that type of book.


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## Tyrael (Jun 23, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I've invoked this trope. I have over 20 important characters in The Painter alone. Not all with their own subplot though.



You've got nothing on WoT. 1880 characters sounds about right. Not that you would want that many characters.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 23, 2009)

Never said I was even attempting. But my cast list might crack 100 before I'm finished.


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## Tyrael (Jun 23, 2009)

Yeah, not a good idea for anyone to try and attempt that scale. Jordan kind of gets away with, but doesn't as much as he does.

_Citizen Alpha_ had loads of characters, but since then I've been trying to simplify stuff.


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## Chiyo (Jun 23, 2009)

Oh, it's odd that I've never posted in this thread...


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## neko-sennin (Jun 24, 2009)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> Sounds like I should be a softy. one of my crucial issues is extremely close to 'wave function collapse', and whether the idea of quantum decoherence should be embraced once it is reached or exposed as a governing force of free-will by 'higher powers'.



I was thinking about this the other night, and I believe your best approach might be a compromise of sorts. If you research your theoretical stuff until you're satisfied, then promote your work as more moderate sci-fi, you will likely come off as looking well-spoken and coherent to the "soft" crowd, and because you avoided pretensions of "hard" sci-fi, the "realism" crowd will probably be more receptive to stuff outside their scene. Of course, in the end, you can't please everyone, and there are just some folks who aren't satisfied with anything.

Fortunately, we don't have to concern ourselves with them, since they won't even be reading it.  At the end of the day, you have to please yourself, and, if applicable, write with your Ideal Reader in mind.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I think you guys need to draw some distinction between using prophecy and using it badly. I am a writer who uses prophecy here and there. Is it written in stone? Not necessarily.
> 
> What you all have seen has been the overworking of an idea. You're a witness to years and years of people using a device in the wrong way. In my writing, I use sparingly at and I try to use them wisely. Anyone can quote a billion examples where something was used badly in literature, movies, TV or games.
> 
> Frankly I think its stupid to talk down about something simply because its used wrong some of the time.



In this case, I think it may simply be a matter of art imitating life, for I'm not sure I've ever seen Prophecy used any way but badly in the real world. From false-hope carrots for cannon-fodder, to the fear-mongering of the Chinese Fire Drill known as Moral Panic, or Armageddon getting re-scheduled every other year (What's the current wager? 2012? Personally, I'm more interested in what it will be when that year also fails to be the end of the world...), and it's seldom employed any differently in fiction.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Some of the best movies, games and books out there use prophecy, Star Wars...



You were better off arguing The Matrix, as Prophecy and The Chosen One _wrecked_ the Star Wars prequels, and apparently continues to wreak havoc in the Extended Universe. George Lucas mostly managed to rob the Clone Wars, the Fall of the Republic and the rise of the Empire of much of the intrigue it once carried with old-school fans like myself, while Anakin plowed through his life like a n00b sandbox player with no sense of style stick-jamming and button-mashing his way through life.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> [/I]the first _Matrix _(fuck the other ones), apparently _Dune_ uses it...



While I agree wholeheartedly that the Matrix went downhill fast with the last movie, what makes the use of Prophecy as a plot device interesting is that not only does Neo honestly question himself every step of the way, but even when he did finally decide he might just be The One, he simply ran with it, letting neither friend nor foe try to pigeon-hole him, a Game-Breaker who refused to play be the rules the Machines set up to deal with anomalies like himself. Another Game-Breaker was Paul Muad'Dib, the Bene Gesserit's pet demi-god they spent generations selectively breeding. Who instead haxxed and hijaxxed their own Game of using prophecy and legends (basically exploiting them in Clerical fashion for a comfortable living in exchange for fortunetelling, esoteric parlor tricks and monopolized knowledge ordinarily withheld from the masses...) and turned it against them. Though I'll reserve judgment until the end of WoT, Rand al Thor might be another one, given that he doesn't let anyone tell him how to go about his business as the Dragon Reborn.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> H.P. Lovecraft's classic _Call of Cthulu..._


_

Not really, since "the Stars were" either "right" or "wrong" for the Old Ones, it's really more akin to "predicting" that a pendulum that swung to the right will eventually swing to the left.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:



Final Fantasies 1-4 are all about Heroes of Light prophecies...
		
Click to expand...


No wonder I just can't get into it when my roommate's playing FFIV... Some of Square's other old-school titles, The Secret of Evermore, and especially Chrono Trigger managed to be epic without falling back on prophecies. Probably why I was always more of a Suikoden than a FF fan...



Cardboard Tube Knight said:



			the first one that comes to mind is Evangelion and its use of the Dead Sea Scrolls...
		
Click to expand...


Yeah, but even the Dead Sea Scrolls played a lot of cryptic roles besides prophecy, to say nothing of the comic/tragic aversion of Shinji as the Chosen One. Though most of the fun in this series is the intrigue of humans playing with toys they don't fully comprehend, how every question that gets answered raises a dozen more...



Anon said:



			I don't doubt it can be used well, and I often wanted to use it when I was younger but I don't really like it anymore.

Why? Well why bother with it? It just seems lazy to me. Look at your character's motivations.

Why is your character trying to save the world or whatever, because its phophecised, its destiny. That seems lazy to me, something a writer can put because they could not think of a better reason.
		
Click to expand...


Ironic, isn't it? Given that many fictional heroes often had reason enough to fight sitting right in front of them, yet more often than not, it's just used as an excuse to gloss over character background and development. Perhaps it's not so much Epic Failure as it is Failure To Be Epic, either because a story/movie/whatever was lackluster to begin with, so they tacked on Prophecy like glitter; or else, despite having a decent story, because they lacked confidence in it, they felt they needed to add superfluous elements._


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## Pan-on (Jun 24, 2009)

neko-sennin said:


> Ironic, isn't it? Given that many fictional heroes often had reason enough to fight sitting right in front of them, yet more often than not, it's just used as an excuse to gloss over character background and development. Perhaps it's not so much Epic Failure as it is Failure To Be Epic, either because a story/movie/whatever was lackluster to begin with, so they tacked on Prophecy like glitter; or else, despite having a decent story, because they lacked confidence in it, they felt they needed to add superfluous elements.



Yeah thats a good way of putting it, it's often used to make something seem more interesting rather than solving the problem itself, like adding a new character to a sitcom losing popularity.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 25, 2009)

neko-sennin said:


> I was thinking about this the other night, and I believe your best approach might be a compromise of sorts. If you research your theoretical stuff until you're satisfied, then promote your work as more moderate sci-fi, you will likely come off as looking well-spoken and coherent to the "soft" crowd, and because you avoided pretensions of "hard" sci-fi, the "realism" crowd will probably be more receptive to stuff outside their scene. Of course, in the end, you can't please everyone, and there are just some folks who aren't satisfied with anything.
> 
> Fortunately, we don't have to concern ourselves with them, since they won't even be reading it.  At the end of the day, you have to please yourself, and, if applicable, write with your Ideal Reader in mind.
> 
> ...



You ignored the fulfillment of the prophecy in Episode 6 of Star Wars, which is what I was talking about. And Chrono Trigger is a terrible game, I don't know how anyone can like that piece of shit, if it didn't come with FF4, I would have returned it. 

I'm not going to argue this with you guys because I think its kind of BS to single out something that is used often and complain because there's bad examples of it.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 25, 2009)

CT terrible?

ON NO YOU DI'N'T! *Snap snap*

Make me take the earrings off! *Fake nails*


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 25, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> CT terrible?
> 
> ON NO YOU DI'N'T! *Snap snap*
> 
> Make me take the earrings off! *Fake nails*



I just couldn't bring myself to go further than this one part. I hated everything about it.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 25, 2009)

Chrono Trigger is one of the best games of all time and I will not spend pages here arguing about it because it would go way off topic and we'd lose all ability to function.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 25, 2009)

I don't want to argue about it, everyone seems so shocked I don't like it and I don't get why. 

Its the same thing with Shakespeare.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 25, 2009)

We shall move on to something else.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 25, 2009)

I have decided to write a short story or possibly a novella...but not calling it that. Its a short story to follow up the first one I am finishing now.


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## Chiyo (Jun 25, 2009)

It may or may not have been discussed here before, but if it has I've not seen. What's the story that you are finishing now about, CTK?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 25, 2009)

Chiyo said:


> It may or may not have been discussed here before, but if it has I've not seen. What's the story that you are finishing now about, CTK?



It gets really complex to explain but its basically a war in Heaven and Hell scenario. But so far the whole thing has been really underground. This first book was the introduction to everything and the appearance of the main villain. 

And now I am trying to decide if I should do some shorts between them or just go ahead and do the next novel.


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## Chiyo (Jun 25, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It gets really complex to explain but its basically a war in Heaven and Hell scenario. But so far the whole thing has been really underground. This first book was the introduction to everything and the appearance of the main villain.
> 
> And now I am trying to decide if I should do some shorts between them or just go ahead and do the next novel.



That sounds really interesting! Heaven/hell stuff really gets me hooked. 

Could I possibly have a read of some of your work? I'm curious.


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## Tyrael (Jun 25, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I don't want to argue about it, everyone seems so shocked I don't like it and I don't get why.
> 
> Its the same thing with Shakespeare.



In all fairness to Shakespeare, you are not actually meant to read the plays. It also can depend a lot on how good the actors are and what slant the production takes.


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## Dream Brother (Jun 25, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> In all fairness to Shakespeare, you are not actually meant to read the plays. It also can depend a lot on how good the actors are and what slant the production takes.



This is an excellent point, and one often overlooked. It's also why I find plays so interesting -- the added dimension of specific actors and production choices brings a lovely fluidity to the medium, in a very different manner to a novel.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 25, 2009)

Chiyo said:


> That sounds really interesting! Heaven/hell stuff really gets me hooked.
> 
> Could I possibly have a read of some of your work? I'm curious.



I can tell that by your sig 

And sure I will let you read, actually its pretty much done now...going on to editing.



Tyrael said:


> In all fairness to Shakespeare, you are not actually meant to read the plays. It also can depend a lot on how good the actors are and what slant the production takes.



I have seen a few of them, I just didn't really care for it. And your right, it was still better than reading it.


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## Tiger (Jun 28, 2009)

Is it bad form to offer up fictionpress links to see if anyone's interested in reading the stuff uploaded there? lol

I recently increased my entries on my page from 5 to 17, but what I'm most interested in is getting feedback from other writers here.


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## Lord Yu (Jun 28, 2009)

Go right ahead.


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## Tiger (Jun 28, 2009)

Ok, it's the ! in my sig - and here.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 28, 2009)

For some reason I stopped using my Fiction Press a while back, I think it was right after I wrote _Heaven Forbid_. Which is funny because I might be restarting that same story soon. 

Only this time I have fun demon bounty hunters to portray. I'm just coming up with names now using the divine comedy, greek folklore and japanese folklore to do so. 

Alichino
Barbariccia
Rubicante
Lamina (the one from myth) 
Yuki-onna (appearing as a type of oni)


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## Lord Yu (Jun 29, 2009)

_The Doll and The Madman_ has surpassed 100 pages.


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## Banhammer (Jun 29, 2009)

I'm getting so depressed with my lack of plot.


Writer's block is a bith


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## Lord Yu (Jun 29, 2009)

Beowulf said:


> You guys are amazing. I would love to read your books when you write them. I would love to write my own, but I like just poetry for now. I find writing one of my favorite things to do, but also my weakest points. I wouldn't have the stamina either. I would love read your books Lord Yu. Especially if _The Madman_ involves a psychotic character.



It wouldn't be called The Doll and The Madman if the man weren't mad.


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## Catterix (Jun 29, 2009)

I was wondering, how do you guys feel about the narrative of a book switching from 3rd to 1st person? I'm writing a novel at the moment that's focusing on a typical underdog boy, Chris, who has latent psychic powers. In the second chapter, they manifest (it's a very fast paced story) for a moment, and he accidentally blasts a bully 20 feet across the room. A whole load of very confusing things happen regarding the teachers (they're actually in on it). And then the 3rd chapter begins like this...



> Hey, it’s Chris here. I’m telling the story from now on, or at least I think so. It certainly seems that way. You’re the one reading so you should tell me! Or you might not be reading this at all, and I’m just in your mind. Yeah, I saw your eyebrow rise. I don’t really know how far this goes into breaking the fourth wall, but meh, I’m just words on a page. That’s all you know me as right now; letters from the English alphabet thrown together to form my personality. You’re not going mad, no; this book is talking to you.
> 
> And I’m talking to you because I want you to know everything.
> 
> ...



And then continues the 3rd chapter in 1st person as if this was perfectly normal.

The idea is that the book constantly flips between 1st & 3rd person, because of events that happen outside of Chris' knowledge, that he's not supposed to find out. And also, later, Chris becomes corrupted by his powers, and to make him seem more distant during this "dark period" the story's written in 3rd person and then switches back, and he talks to the reader as if he had no idea of anything that had happened during the "dark period".


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## Banhammer (Jun 29, 2009)

lol.

You should start that way from the beggining


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## Lord Yu (Jun 29, 2009)

I write in both first and third. Nothing wrong with it at all.


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## Catterix (Jun 29, 2009)

I didn't ask if there was, lol.

I meant more, do you think it works?

Thanks for the replies though


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## Lord Yu (Jun 29, 2009)

I'd really have to see how you meld it with the third person narrative.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jun 29, 2009)

Catterix said:


> I was wondering, how do you guys feel about the narrative of a book switching from 3rd to 1st person? I'm writing a novel at the moment that's focusing on a typical underdog boy, Chris, who has latent psychic powers. In the second chapter, they manifest (it's a very fast paced story) for a moment, and he accidentally blasts a bully 20 feet across the room. A whole load of very confusing things happen regarding the teachers (they're actually in on it). And then the 3rd chapter begins like this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The slipping back and forth needs to be clearly defined, usually at a chapter change. It's very annoying to be reading and suddenly change perspectives and it can get confusing. So you have to make sure the people reading know what they are reading unless you want to them to be confused or something. 

I would suggest if there's that much you need to do in 3rd, its better to do it all in 3rd.


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## Pan-on (Jun 30, 2009)

Catterix said:


> I was wondering, how do you guys feel about the narrative of a book switching from 3rd to 1st person? I'm writing a novel at the moment that's focusing on a typical underdog boy, Chris, who has latent psychic powers. In the second chapter, they manifest (it's a very fast paced story) for a moment, and he accidentally blasts a bully 20 feet across the room. A whole load of very confusing things happen regarding the teachers (they're actually in on it). And then the 3rd chapter begins like this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is possible although you have to be careful.

If you are not confident its better to do it all in either 3rd or 1st person, you could just switch the character whose point of view you were using if you were to keep just 1st person.


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## Raiden (Jul 1, 2009)

I was writing a book, of which I encountered many problems with because I just couldn't firmly establish a solid beginning. Thinking about mailing off my idea Disney since I really don't have the time anymore to write the story.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 1, 2009)

If I mailed my shit to Disney I'd probably get a C & D.


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## Stalin (Jul 1, 2009)

The main heroes of my story of reincarnationss of gods that are forced to work as goverment agents for an emperor against their own will.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 1, 2009)

Sounds very interesting.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 1, 2009)

The Cheat said:


> The main heroes of my story of reincarnationss of gods that are forced to work as goverment agents for an emperor against their own will.



Interesting concept, sounds like something that could go a lot of different ways. 

I have written myself into a bit of a corner again and I need to figure out where to start from.


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## EverEndingStory (Jul 2, 2009)

I have several things that I am working on, but only two that I am currently writing.

---​

One is a dark fantasy and horror novella about half-dead semi-immortal being named Eliezer. No name, so I just dub it _God Fall_. I consider him a vampire, but when I describe him I usually call him a demi-god because that term fits just as much, and to avoid connection to another vampire story (no offense, I just don't want that connection). Eliezer began a kind of demonic/vampire cult, but a group (Ravern, Abbalon, Zannic, and Xanthus) performed a coup. They think they killed him, but now he reappears wanting revenge.  The story is incredibly simple, as it is all about the action, violence and gore. It is really an experiment for me to try and see if it is possible to mimic the kind of hyper visual battles and over-the-top super powers inherent in anime and cinema with a book.

---​

The other one is called _The River Sticks_, a kind-of episodic novel, where most chapters are, for the most part, self-contained short stories. What connects them is the character of River, a reaper, and each story is basically a different death-tale, with him watching over his victim until they die and he goes in to collect the soul. In this story, when someone dies and they are neither pure enough to go to Heaven or impure enough to go to Hell, they end up basically performing community service, a Purgatory that involves performing some kind of supernatural job until they have worked off their sins. While not reaping, River is stuck in Limbo, a vast desert of white sand, with a sea that ebbs away from him whenever he approaches, and an apple tree whose branches pull away when he reaches for food.  Everyone I know says that the opening chapters are very morbid (it opens with him taking the life of a little girl, and the second chapter involves a kid being hit by a truck), but I imagine the story, in the end, being inspirational, with the main theme being about life (illustrating the meaning of life through the concept of death).





Other stories are:

---​

_Saint Bedlam_. A story I begin just recently, about Saint Morris, a young black albino of a large heavily Christian family.  He has delusions of conversations with his dead identical twin-brother Gabriel, who looks exactly like him except that Gabriel is black, because "you don't have diseases when you're dead." That is the personal side of it, but overall the story is one of healing, and Saint (and Saint's love interest, who is nicknamed Dandelion for the color of her skin) are trying to cure the scars left on the City of New Bethlehem, and free it of its sin before it is too late. The story parallels Sodom and Gomorrah and Jesus Christ, and was influenced by the themes of The Legend of Zelda Majora's Mask. The story is a mix of romance, pseudo-fantasy (through these kind of make-believe/dream sequences), a bit of children's gothic fiction, and coming-of-age.

---​

The next is a fantasy story that I unofficially dub _Comedy of Errors_. The main character is so far nameless, and I just dub him THE WANNABE HERO, because that is pretty much what he is. A loser with a fake sword that has delusions of grandeur. Other main characters are an angel, an oracle with amnesia, and a rebel leader, but the idea is that all of their roles are kind of flipped on their heads. Its as if they were actors trained to play one part perfectly, suddenly forced to play an opposing role without a script. (The reason I call it Comedy of Errors is because of this inverse in roles, and because of an influence from Shakespeare).  This story is pretty much straight fantasy, although with some old school Romanticism, comedy, and a lot of psycho-analyzing and mind raping of the main characters.

---​

My final story is the one I have been working on for yearsIt is a vast, epic fantasy story, that combines elements of fantasy, steampunk, psychological thriller, and philosophy (particularly looking at existentialism, dualism and objectivism). It use to have some elements of a political thriller, but I have decided to downplay the politics a lot.  The story revolves, at first, around two identical twin brothers (does that sound like another story I am writing? Brothers and brotherhood are reoccurring themes in all of my stories) who are espers, capable of using magical powers. A whole bunch of stuff happens, and they eventually stand (at first) in opposition of a double sided organization, Dis Maas and Ein Sof, Dis Maas being a terrorist group and Ein Sof being a peace organization that uses the terror created by Dis Maas to gain power (both created and led by the same person). But that's not all, because there is also the Angels (thats simply what I am calling them now because they have wings) a sapient species that dwells in Mary's shell (Mary is the name of the planet), a collection of floating islands way above the ground, encircling the planet. The Angels and humans have been forever hostile to one another, and they are currently in something of a Cold War, although you know some shit is gonna go down to end that. And on top of that, Weapon (the government branch that trains Espers to be warriors) may not be quite as glorious and heroic as they paint themselves to be.

I have been working on this story for about seven years. It has changed a lot since then, but some of the ideas and characters are intact, although they have shifted some. The original main character is now a supporting character (although I still love him, he is an immortal that isn't invincible, can't regenerate and can feel pain, so his body is all stitched up and he has to be drugged to reduce his pain), while the current main character began as a side character I introduced back in 2005 as cannon fodder.  The main character of Izaan is crafted as a strategic genius, and although it is an action-fantasy story filled with fighting and powerful magic, Izaan primarily wins battles by manipulation and deceit and trickery (despite being the good guy). The main themes are of the nature of good and evil, beliefs and their affects on relationships (can a long standing friendship survive when the two are on opposing sides of a war?), and the nature of identity (the fact that the two are *identical* twin brothers isn't meaningless, and it brings possibilities that I so far haven't seen put to full use in a work of fiction).


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## Lord Yu (Jul 4, 2009)

You reek of talent.


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## RaiRyuu (Jul 4, 2009)

EverEndingStory, your stories seem really interesting. That last one somewhat resembles the story I've been working on the longest too.


Meh...I just don't seem to be writing anymore even though I still have plenty of ideas...Thoughts?


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## Lord Yu (Jul 4, 2009)

Sit down and write something. Anything.


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## EverEndingStory (Jul 4, 2009)

Rai said:


> EverEndingStory, your stories seem really interesting. That last one somewhat resembles the story I've been working on the longest too.


What's it about? Post some info on your story (and any other ones you have) and I'll share more of mine, and we can discuss! 



Rai said:


> Meh...I just don't seem to be writing anymore even though I still have plenty of ideas...Thoughts?


Like Lord Yu said, just write, anything. Look on various writer's forums (here or on another forum) and you should be able to find writer challenges.

Do novelizations of your favorite games or shows, or start a blog. Yeah, they might not help you sharpen your craft as a story-teller, but they will at least keep you writing (practice makes perfect).

For myself, I can find it hard to write my ideas because the task of writing a full novel can be so daunting and intimidating. So what I usually is I write a lot of flash fiction, very short stories, less than 1000 words.

Also, take a single, short moment within one of your greater stories and just write that as if it were a short story or a piece of flash fiction. It doesn't even necessarily have to be good.


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## EverEndingStory (Jul 4, 2009)

This is a short-short story I wrote based on one of the larger novels I am writing, _Comedy of Errors_ (which I talked about a bit above). I didn't plan on actually using this in my novel (the scene would be there in spirit, but it would've played out much differently) but I kinda like it now.

However, every time I read it I feel like something is wrong, which is why no one else has ever read this, despite me having written it many months ago and kept it. Can you guys help me with this. I like it, but it just seems incredibly _*off*_ for some reason.



On a decrepit slope we sat, having planted our respective worlds nearby.  Our shoulders were too weak to carry them any longer. We wanted a moment to settle.

Horrors lay ahead, horrors we didn't want to face, but we would face them, we had to. But before we did we would rest, and so we sat waiting, contemplating our lives, biding our time in this brief reprieve, this sanctuary of peace and thought. A quiet calm before the storm.

The fire flickered and fumed, heat and smoke wafting over us. Its heat warmed our souls, and we all welcomed the blinding smoke, as none of us really wanted to see the world around us. I didn't want to see it either, but I really didn't have a choice. I needed to.

I lifted myself from the ground and steadily made my way home.  I allowed my path to waver a bit, my feet to digress, and before I knew it I found myself wandering to her side.  I allowed my hand to rest upon her shoulder. I needed to do this too.

I left her side, walking closer to the ruins, and my angel wings could not keep my spirit from falling as the scene opened in front of my eyes.  I climbed higher on the hill, planting myself on its summit, allowing myself the perfect vantage point from which to see something I really didn't want to see, my city, dead.

My spirit hit rock bottom, shattering into a million pieces. I heard breaking glass somewhere in the distance, but I ignored it, too consumed by what lay before me:

A labyrinth made up of lifeless dolls and smoldering cradles and family portraits perfectly preserved in their broken frames, and skyscrapers unable to fulfill their namesake.  Faeries, symbols of peace and love, filled the air, only adding to the dread that filled my heart. It all felt so unbelievable, so artificial.

I turned away, slowly, methodically. To me this was not my home. This derelict portrait was nothing more than a painful reminder of what I had lost.  It wasn't real, not anymore.

I of course wasn't any more real than the landscape spread out behind me, not anymore.  I may in fact have been even more unreal. I almost cried at the thought, and when I looked back and saw a vision of my home as it was years before, flourishing, I really did cry.

The sight of this place, the setting of the formative chapters of my story, brought back joyous memories.  I hated it. I was so young back then; so immature, so happy, and blissfully ignorant to everything.  I was at once ashamed of my younger self and envious of him. I was almost a different person now.

I wiped the tears from my eyes, and then again and again until my heart finally stopped bleeding.   looked down and noticed the red stains on my sleeves.  "I'll need to stop using metaphors," but on the plus side my powers were getting stronger, "maybe we'll have a chance after all."

I looked up, and I caught a faint glimpse of a memory. I stood on a hill, my short hair tucked under a neat cap.  I exhaled and saw my life.  I looked to the right and saw my father; I looked to the left and saw my mother.  I looked forward and saw the white virgin landscape, backed by purple skies, teeming with brightly decorated air-ships.

Then it disappeared. I looked left and saw nothing; I looked right and saw nothing. I didn't dare look forward.  Eyes down, I brushed my hand through my long hair and felt nothing.  I exhaled but the air got caught in my throat and a fit of coughing overtook me.

I was alone with nothing, just me and my reality. I cried out and kicked the stone under my feet. Concrete was starting to annoy me.

I felt a stone hit me in the side of my head and I passed out, swearing at myself. "No more metaphors."

*****​
When I came to, nearly a day had passed.  Everyone else was asleep, exactly where they were the day before.

The new day was creeping up and I would have to wake them soon.  I swore to myself.  I didn't want to wake them, not today. If I could I would let them sleep on, dream on of a better world; leave them drifting through a state of uncaring bliss as they lay dying.

For a moment I actually humored the idea, but no, I couldn't do that to them, "they'd only hate me for it tomorrow."

So I woke them up, one by one, and we strained to lift the world back onto our shoulders.  You would think carrying such a weight would get easier if you did it enough, but it didn’t. It only got harder.

I catch her eye only once that morning, only for a minute, just long enough to relate the story I had just told you.  And in that moment she told me her own story.  It seems that while I was climbing the hill, coming to terms with everything I had lost, she descended it, and had come to terms with everything she would be losing.

Half-a-second into her tale my eyes begin to tear up, but they were dry by the fifth.  As she told it I could feel my spirit being taped back together, and by the end my spirit was learning how to hover again, one wing at a time.  It made me feel like I did when this adventure first began: the innocence and exhilaration. It was so enticing; I didn’t want to look away, because I knew that this feeling would disappear as soon as I did.

I was right.  Her eyes left me like the eye of a hurricane, leaving me amidst the storm, whose chaotic winds and heavy rain defeated any chance my spirit had of returning to flight. But maybe that was a good a thing. Flying is for fairy-tales and this was far from a fairy-tale, no matter how much I wanted it to be. I heaved a sigh and followed my party, dragging my eyes with apathy over the lost city that just last night filled me with such emotion.

I could see the sun growing on a far off horizon, rising in an eerie orange glow that cast the ruins into a beautiful dim light.  It was fitting, the ominous dawn, and I could only assume the sky was working diligently to craft an atmosphere to fit the events that would unfold in the near future. In stories, no matter how light-hearted their opening pages may be, the tone always turns to one of darkness in the end. My story is no different.​


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## Dream Brother (Jul 4, 2009)

I really like the opening lines, EES. Gotta sleep now though, so I'll have to read the rest of the piece tomorrow.


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## Yoritomo (Jul 5, 2009)

I have not actually began the novel yet, I am really just getting all my ideas on paper and fleshing out my notes really.  I have a vague idea of how things will work, but no real details yet.  It will be a fantasy/thriller/mystery type book.  I am hoping to make it about three books long, but the idea could be fleshed out to as many as five or six even.  It all depends on how hard I make things for the main characters.  In so I will ask myself when writing if I should give the characters a helping hand from time to time or continuously kick them while they are down.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 5, 2009)

I know what you mean, spent days writing and rewriting openings for my novel and looking over different things trying to figure out what needed to happen. The thing about it is this, sometimes you have to go back and look at all perspectives, look at the characters and plot and sit down and decide what you want to happen and where is the best place for it to start to happen, you see what I mean? 

When I did that like Friday morning, things just fell into place for me.


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## Adonis (Jul 5, 2009)

I've been trying to write a television screenplay for the past month to no avail.  

I have the attention span of a goddamn gopher.


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## Stalin (Jul 5, 2009)

It seems to me you can still have a character thaty doesn't get a lot of development and still be memorable and well loved among a fandom from all the popular minor characters I've seen.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 5, 2009)

The Ensemble Darkhorse.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 5, 2009)

I try to make sure that none of my minors overshadow my majors.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 6, 2009)

Sometimes you can't control those things. Fans are going to latch on to whatever character they like.


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## Stalin (Jul 6, 2009)

How do you keep a plot from becoming convaluted.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 6, 2009)

That is a mystical question.


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## EverEndingStory (Jul 8, 2009)

The Cheat said:


> How do you keep a plot from becoming convaluted.



I'd say that has more to do with how the story is written than with the story itself. A plot that may come off as convoluted, confusing and cumbersome might, in the hands of another author, seem intriguingly complex and cleverly intricate.

I'd say though, the main way, as I can see it, to keep the actual plot itself from from becoming convoluted (in the bad way) is to keep your eye on the main goal (or main theme, if your story is based more around the abstract rather than the concrete).

Most convoluted and cumbersome plots, to me, come from an author attempting to make the secondary elements as important as the primary, or not knowing what the major parts of the story are and what are supporting.

It is of course perfectly fine to have subplots and supporting characters and secondary themes like that, but never forget that they are only _sub_-plots. Never, ever, _ever_, _EVER_

*Spoiler*: __ 



*EVER!!*



allow the readers to question who is the main character(s), what the main goal is, or what the main theme is. Secondary plots, characters and themes are good, they add depth and are a nice touch, and they should be developed, but never at the expense of the main devices of the narrative.

Do whatever you can to make sure the reader knows, at all times what/who the main plot/theme/character is (especially during times spent away from it/him/her). In fact, sub-devices work best if they are hanging by a string from the main devices (don't have them too connected though, or else they risk being tangled within the main plot, thus losing their charming independence).

Most people aren't going to be a Leo Tolstoy (although even he had central themes, ideas and ideals around which his grand weaving was focused). Most writers, especially inexperienced writers want to tell a grand, epic story, and they always put the 'epic' part before the 'story' part. The Illiad and the Odyssey were epic, but that grandness was orchestrated around a single goal, a single idea and a single main character. Ayn Rand's Fountainhead had many sub-characters and themes, but they all were foils to what was most significant, reflecting the main character and the main theme.


. . .
But I digress. I am so sorry, I did not mean for that to happen. It seems like I went on a bit of a rant. Ahem. I humbly apologize, The Cheat. I have no idea the nature of your writings and I have no intention of placing ill assumptions atop your head, nor do I mean to preach.


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## RaiRyuu (Jul 8, 2009)

Yu said:
			
		

> Sit down and write something. Anything.



Done.



EverEndingStory said:


> What's it about? Post some info on your story (and any other ones you have) and I'll share more of mine, and we can discuss!



My story? Well it's a fantasy story that also deals with psychological/philosophical themes among other things such as the concept of power, deception, emotions etc...It takes place in a world where the most recent devastating war has just ended and mysterious events concerning demons/magic (whose existence remains unknown to most people) begin to unfold when children are seemingly randomly being kidnapped. Basically, the main character(s) are looking for them and the cause/instigator of the abductions, each for their own reasons. Except for a few characters, mostly anyone is a potential enemy/ally and you don't quite always know who's really "good" and who's "bad"...I'm working on an exercise which consists of summarizing character/setting info, maybe I'll post some of it later...There's also a lot of mystery/ambiguity around everything in the story even things that are considered "facts" to the characters. Furthermore, there's plenty of fighting/battles.
If you've played Final Fantasy or similar games you might notice some familiarities; it's intentional...
The story is rather fast paced but seems to slow down during battles.



			
				EverEndingStory said:
			
		

> On a decrepit slope we sat, having planted our respective worlds nearby. Our shoulders were too weak to carry them any longer. We wanted a moment to settle.



Nice.


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## Dream Brother (Jul 8, 2009)

You guys bothering to listen to music just before/during you write? If so, what?


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## Stalin (Jul 8, 2009)

My premise for the story is this world whose gods disappeared thousands of years ago. The setting is this country called Anmosia which just won this war against their rival,Brith, and annexed. But the whole empire of Anmosia is a depression and there's this goverment conspiriacy plotting to overthrow the emperor.

The emperor had these teenagers captured and made them into a team of governemnt agents. The teens are now adults who fought in the war and were kipnapped becaused they are the reincarnation of the gods. The emperopr wants to use them to uncover the conspiracy and the ones behind it.


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## Pan-on (Jul 8, 2009)

Dream Brother said:


> You guys bothering to listen to music just before/during you write? If so, what?



I do before to get me into the mood, doing it right now. For me its all cheesy stuff like eye of the tiger,journey and at this particualr moment Queen.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 8, 2009)

I listen to alot of dark ambient while writing. I like to create a dark and tense atmosphere while writing.


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## Tyrael (Jul 8, 2009)

EverEndingStory said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Whilst I agree with your overall point, I think the idea that only geniuses of writing can get away with it is exaggerating things. With a lot of careful thought, practice, a good knowledge of books that have successfully done it and how they relate to the mechanics of your story and with a lot of work then it can be done well. Is it hard? Yes, very. Impossible for all, save a select few? Not a chance.


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## EverEndingStory (Jul 8, 2009)

Dream Brother said:


> You guys bothering to listen to music just before/during you write? If so, what?


Yep, I personally like to listen to Talib Kweli, specifically. Highly poetic, intelligent and articulate lyrics rapped over mellow nu jazz beats? I'm there.




Tyrael said:


> Whilst I agree with your overall point, I think the idea that only geniuses of writing can get away with it is exaggerating things. With a lot of careful thought, practice, a good knowledge of books that have successfully done it and how they relate to the mechanics of your story and with a lot of work then it can be done well. Is it hard? Yes, very. Impossible for all, save a select few? Not a chance.


Yeah, your right. That was mainly meant for amateur writers. I probably should have said not to expect to be like Tolstoy _yet_. But also, as I said, even he had his primary's, his clearly defined and clearly focused upon central ideas and themes. I don't think I've ever seen anyone execute the kind of epic, incomprehensibly complex, character and plot juggling colossus of a story that most young writers (including myself not too long ago) say they are going to create.

And I'm not trying to stomp on ambition, I'm just saying, a young politician shouldn't try for world domination, especially not before getting elected to mayor.



Rai said:


> My story? Well it's a fantasy story that also deals with psychological/philosophical themes among other things such as the concept of power, deception, emotions etc...It takes place in a world where the most recent devastating war has just ended and mysterious events concerning demons/magic (whose existence remains unknown to most people) begin to unfold when children are seemingly randomly being kidnapped. Basically, the main character(s) are looking for them and the cause/instigator of the abductions, each for their own reasons. Except for a few characters, mostly anyone is a potential enemy/ally and you don't quite always know who's really "good" and who's "bad"...I'm working on an exercise which consists of summarizing character/setting info, maybe I'll post some of it later...There's also a lot of mystery/ambiguity around everything in the story even things that are considered "facts" to the characters. Furthermore, there's plenty of fighting/battles.
> If you've played Final Fantasy or similar games you might notice some familiarities; it's intentional...
> The story is rather fast paced but seems to slow down during battles.


Nice, that is kinda how my story began. I actually wanted to write a Final Fantasy like story, although as I begun to grasp the pros to writing and its difference with video games it evolved.

My story is set on an alternate Earth, and the world of the surface, the core of Earth known as Mary. Surrounding Mary is the shell of Earth, Sophia, a collection of landmasses circling the core high above the surface. Humans dwell on Mary, while the superior angels (temporary name, maybe) live on Sophia. The angels are much more powerful in magic, and they keep Sophia hidden day and night from humans with a dense bed of clouds.

_Sunlight? Moonlight? I could barely even tell you what the moon looked like. I see far too little of it. I could describe the clouds to you though, perfectly, for I see those all the time, every dark-white day and every light-black night. But even angel's aren't perfect. In the right place, at the right time, you can see the black silhouettes of Sophia's veins, ebbing towards the end of the world, amidst the silver linings._​
This is because of the tense history that had existed between humans and angels. However, angels don't play a main role in the plot until later on, and at first they only exist as part of the back story, simply an oft fantasized part of their mythology, slowly receding to legend and folk lore.

The main characters are identical twin brothers Izaan and Jeram Tomas, both of whom are espers, i.e. magicians, which in this world is not a supernatural ability known to few but a science that anyone can approach, although some aptitude is needed, as well as much studying, and most people don't use it extensively, only those who do are considered espers.

Imagine it like in the real world, with doctors and such. Just because someone carries around a medical kit and knows basic procedures for wounds and choking and such, doesn't make them a doctor.  Also, if one were to try the more highly technical and dangerous stuff (prescribing medicine, surgery) without being certified you would be in trouble, the same works here.

Izaan and Jeram are, originally, _users_, meaning they are high level espers that aren't under the control of the government, and thus dangerous, although Izaan and Jeram use their power for "good", usurping the local law and making themselves protectors of the city. Eventually though, they end up with the Caelum (the country in Mary in which they live) government, as part of Weapon (basically Military/FBI/CIA/SWAT).

The main antagonist is Dis Maas, a terrorist organization that is involved in the destruction of Izaan's and Jeram's home town, blowing up an airship, destroying many city blocks and buildings, and killing many people. They have numerous supporters, which is part of the drama within the early-middle of the story, and many regular, non-esper people (some supporting characters) become involved and commit destruction, vandalism, even full on terrorism in the name of Dis Maas' ideals, although the actual organization is made up of powerful users and former-espers.





I actually almost consider it poetic prose, because it is written (and much of the themes based around and expressed aesthetically through) a style I call hyper-visual writing, which revolves around cadenced, abstract, simplistically-high-detailed, sensory-based descriptions, a style I invented, and am steadily developing, myself (I'm sure I'm not the first to use such a style, I only mean I am not copying a style I have ever previously read). I believe this allows me to paint very unique pictures in a person's head. Similar to an artistic painting or a piece of visual poetry, instead of blandly showing you an object or telling you that an object is their, it reduces the object to a very basic, rudimentary idea, and then plays with it, twists it and bends it for artistic beauty and to create an atmosphere and develop the theme. I kinda wanted to write this story as a graphic novel, because some elements would be best served in that medium, but still others would be best served with literary devices, and I do so hate those dreadful series' that have you hopping like a mad rabbit from medium to medium, so I am trying to create a style that allows me all the possibilities of both mediums. I am still working on it, not showing anybody the full idea yet but slowly injecting it into all of my stories and writings it progresses and I feel more comfortable with it.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 8, 2009)

EverEndingStory said:


> Yep, I personally like to listen to Talib Kweli, specifically. Highly poetic, intelligent and articulate lyrics rapped over mellow nu jazz beats? I'm there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I save intelligent lyrics over nu-jazz beats for relaxation.


My ambition is strong. My notes are dense. I can't stop creating cities, cultures, legends, histories, characters; it's in my nature. I have three solid plotlines running. The one that ties them all together is weak right now and needs to be rewoven as I've figured out how to coherently use the bizarre world I've built.


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## EverEndingStory (Jul 9, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> I save intelligent lyrics over nu-jazz beats for relaxation.


I do sometimes. It depends on the song. When Talib does a more fast paced or battle rap, it works perfectly. "It knocks you out and keeps you going at the same time."



Lord Yu said:


> My ambition is strong. My notes are dense. I can't stop creating cities, cultures, legends, histories, characters; it's in my nature. I have three solid plotlines running. The one that ties them all together is weak right now and needs to be rewoven as I've figured out how to coherently use the bizarre world I've built.


I'm even worse than that though, I've come up with dozens of separate stories over the years, but they all get assimilated by my one main story. Lol, =]
I like creating cultures and cities and legends and stuff too. Especially characters, that one is my worse offense. And yeah, I've been in the position with multiple plot lines running together. I'd say for that, just make sure they are all connected, and make sure that their is one thing that is above all else.

Most stories centralize everything around a single character or plot, but that can be boring sometimes (although I establish a main character, that is simply for the sake of the visible narrative, the overall story is more free). It doesn't have to be a specific plot that is above the others, or a single character above the others. It can be an object, and event, an idea, a theme, just something to connect them. The Lord of the Rings was epic with multiple plot lines and characters, and none can be clearly defined as more significant than any other, but everything was centralized around one thing, the ring. Paranoia agent centralized everything by a possibly non existent main character, while the narrative itself is told from the PoVs of many character with many storylines.

Their has to be something central for it to work well, in my opinion, for how else do planets and stars hold themselves together than by forming in a circle around a core. Without the core it would be a floating mess, as would a story.

This is the motto that I use when writing characters and stories:

The best character/story would require a million words to define, but only one sentence to describe.​
I hope you can see the pertinence in this. I don't have enough time to accurately define my thoughts and advice, but I think this sentence describes my overall idea on this whole subject, but of course it is only my opinion. Take for it what you will.





Also, Lord Yu, what is you influence when you create cultures and name people within your world. Do you draw from certain places and ideas of thought for certain people and places?


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## Lord Yu (Jul 9, 2009)

My connection is that all of the three major plotlines happen in the same world at around the same time. The central theme is the decline and collapse of the modern age. 

I have many influences. I have a country that is much like Japan to the point of Japanese names(plot reason). I also have the standard European influence countries as well as a little African. My story is fantasy but not medieval, I like to make up my own fashion and architecture influenced by modern styles yet something else. It's fairly hard to describe without excerpts.


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## EverEndingStory (Jul 9, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> My connection is that all of the three major plotlines happen in the same world at around the same time. The central theme is the decline and collapse of the modern age.


Eh, in my mind that works perfectly. Actually, it works great. Sounds like something I want to read.



Lord Yu said:


> I have many influences. I have a country that is much like Japan to the point of Japanese names(plot reason). I also have the standard European influence countries as well as a little African. My story is fantasy but not medieval, I like to make up my own fashion and architecture influenced by modern styles yet something else. It's fairly hard to describe without excerpts.


See, your the kinda person I like. That's how I write my fantasies, in patchwork worlds. I always get a lot of diss from people because I don't pick a single culture and stick with it for every single character and every single place, and I always thought doing that was so stupid. I liked to combine influences from Arabic culture, Buddhism and Hinduism and Aztec mythology, and then even the modern age tossed salad culture, and twist it all to be original, but those unimaginative elitists over on Gaia said I was being inconsistent and over-stepping my boundaries. I'm like damn son, this is fantasy not the effin History Channel.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 9, 2009)

I like the feeling of a complete world. One world one culture only works on SciFi TV shows.


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## EverEndingStory (Jul 9, 2009)

Yep. Alright. I'm trying to get myself adjusted to a decent sleeping schedule in preparation for my first year of college, so I'm off to bed.

But a subject I want to raise: Magic Systems. Lots of people (well, not a lot, but at least four that I know) seem to be doing fantasy, and I wanted to discuss the magic system(s) within your world(s). I will post mine later tomorrow (*looks at clock* . . .I mean, today) after I finish my entrance exams.

Good night everybody.
. . . or, well, Lord Yu (Lord Yu, you are no longer a somebody, you are now an everybody, congratulations).


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## Lord Yu (Jul 9, 2009)

I've been trying my damndest to create a complex magic system but all I have is the process in which one becomes a Mage in my world.(Arduous and bureaucratic contracts)


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## neko-sennin (Jul 9, 2009)

I'm afraid the last couple weeks left me with little time to set down my thoughts on this matter, so please pardon me for finishing what I started.


*Spoiler*: _My final remarks on Prophecy in Fiction-- read only if interested in further discussion_ 





Anon said:


> Chosen ones as well, it just elevated characters above everyone else, but for what reason? To explain why the henchmen don't hit them?



Not necessarily packaged with every Prophecy, Chosen Ones tend to wear out their welcome quickly with me anymore, as it usually smacks of leftover Elitist garbage from the Feudal era. Probably one of my favorite comments on the subject was from WoT where someone was explaining to Perrin (himself Ta'veren, a kind of Chosen One, though at least with a twist...) when he objected to being called "Lord Perrin" by his fellow villagers, the simple truth that most of the current "lords" of the world were usually the descendents of people who did something useful and organized people in times of need, rather than "ordained" by any "higher powers" and that a lot of "nobodies" are descendents of "lords" whose lineage fell from power through abuse, neglect or the blind assumption that they "deserved" the title just because it was passed down in the family, rather than earned. 



Tyrael said:


> Something that uses prophecy well:
> 
> The _Legacy of Kain_ series is about the main character(Kain)'s attempts to manipulate and escape from prophecy. The whole point is that Kain wants more than what the prophecies say-they require his eventual sacrifice-and looks to find some way to escape. The thing is, the prophecies seem to be horrendously complex and convoluted, and more than once it is suggested that they are not as definitive as he suspects them to be.
> 
> The key is that Kain is a heavily fatalistic character, due to the way he has been manipulated ever since he was resurrected (yeah, dude is a vampire-doesn't sparkle though). It is often implied that Kain puts so much stock in the prophecy because of his fatalistic nature, and is so obsessed with it that he may almost be validating it by his obsession (a bit of a Macbeth nod that one). It begs the question-if he were to ignore the prophecy would it have any power over him?



Interesting. I might have to check that out. What you describe reminds me of an old Twilight Zone episode, about a newlywed couple whose car breaks down on their honeymoon, and they end up spending an afternoon at this cafe while their car gets fixed. There's a little fortune-telling machine at their table, and the husband keeps plunking coins into it and asking questions about their future, at first whimsically, then increasingly seriously, while his wife looks on in growing dismay. Finally she convinces him to leave it behind and live his life, and as they happily leave the cafe to make their own future, they walk right past the Twilight Zone Twist as a very different, older couple walk past them at the entrance. The husband immediately zeroes in on the table they just left, dropping coin after coin and firing off question after question after every mundane matter of his life, while his wife looks on in alternating resignation and apprehension as he squanders his time and hard-earned money asking questions that can only be answered by living.



Anon said:


> But this is what I don't understand, why have it at all? Why not just have the creature appear and then the characters deal with it? What does the prophecy bring to this other than a handy way of explaining how they knew what to do ?



While there a many times alternatives to this oft-overused plot coupon, such as leaving notes or evidence of past events-- perhaps even the Instruction Manual for some types of threats-- for more resourceful adventurers, a detective trail of information-- for even failed attempts at defeating something can yield hints-- to follow, or not so much prophecy, as just a simple warning from the past by others who had encountered this menace before, I will concede that sometimes a sufficiently powerful enemy may require the Deus Ex of prophecy just to prevent the heroes from getting wiped out before they even figure out what they're doing.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> How would they know where to even be? And how would they know what was going on?





Anon said:


> As for them knowing what is going on, do they really need to? ...you could explore how the character deals with no knowledge, and something is always scarier when it is mysterious.



Well, it sounds like CTK's already decided it was necessary for that story, but I see what you mean. There's a lot of stuff I wrote for Tradewinds-- especially the early draft of "The Flathead Experiment"-- for which I hadn't even made up the explanation for what was going on that night back when I first made it up, and I found that sense of challenging the Unknown rubbed off on both the atmosphere, and the portrayal of each character, in a way that any fore- or external knowledge of the matter wouldn't have been nearly as suspenseful. In fact, I think it may be a big part of the reason why that story and "The Building Is Hungry!" have scored more hits than the rest of the series put together.



Lord Yu said:


> I like to establish such a logic. A nightmare logic where the most horrible things can happen.



That can be fun, too. 



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The prophecy played into history too. Like saying that the word "Croatoan" wasn't just a word carved in a tree at Roanoke, but is actually a ritual and that the word is a demonic word that was humanized into that pronunciation.
> 
> Its all about foreshadowing, already the entire town has vanished where this ritual is taking place, then this word is being used in connection with these dreams someone is having about all of this stuff. All of it plays together to say something about the characters.
> 
> prophecy doesn't drive everything, but it foreshadows some, and then I also am going to have a small parallel between it and some other source.



Based on what I've read of your past writings, it sounds like the use of prophecy fits with what you're trying to do, and I, for one, would still read it if the end result sounds sufficiently interesting. (I've always harbored a fascination with mysteries like Roanoke, and even toy with its neighbor down the street, the Bermuda Triangle, in Tradewinds.) The point that I think some folks were making is that a whole contingent of us tend to groan at the mere mention of the word "prophecy" simply _because_ it's used in a sloppy, lazy or cliche manner 90+% of the time.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I'm not going to argue this with you guys because I think its kind of BS to single out something that is used often and complain because there's bad examples of it.



Looking back at this thread, I think I figured out where things got derailed. Many of us seemed to have underestimated the degree to which the use of prophecy was invested in your current story, which probably explains why you took the critique and deconstruction of that trope so personally. Many times, it is not so much a particular trope some people object to, in and of itself, so much as a reaction to something that both overused _and_ used poorly in most instances. As writers, we are interested in the potential of ideas, but as _readers_, we are much more interested in the _fulfillment_ of potential.

I suspect I may have also stepped on a couple toes by dragging out my opinions on religion in a non-debate thread. Unfortunately, since the trope of "prophecy" is so closely tied to religious traditions, it was impossible for me, as one of the agnostic persuasion, to fully clarify my opinion on this particular subject without bringing up my own personal beliefs. To that end, my intention wasn't meant to offend, only to explain.

I never really expected the discussion of this matter to get so personal, so now that I've said my piece, I'll join everyone else in dropping the matter.






Lord Yu said:


> CT terrible?
> 
> ON NO YOU DI'N'T! *Snap snap*
> 
> Make me take the earrings off! *Fake nails*



lol, relax, Yu. It's all a matter of personal taste. What can I say? To me, all FF games up to VI all look the same, and all games after VII all look the same.

* shrugs *



Clovis15 said:


> The concept of originality is a romantic myth that many like to hold on to at first, it will only bring them quite a great deal of frustration until they move past it.



How true, how true.



Tyrael said:


> In all fairness to Shakespeare, you are not actually meant to read the plays. It also can depend a lot on how good the actors are and what slant the production takes.



One of the principal differences between a script and a piece of prose. In fact, I once came across an interesting article on the subject of "realistic" dialogue that makes some very insightful points on this very matter:


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## neko-sennin (Jul 9, 2009)

(continued-- fucking character limit...)



Beowulf said:


> You guys are amazing. I would love to read your books when you write them.



Feel free. Some of us post some of our work right here in the forum, and if you nose around, you'll also find links to stuff some of us write at Fictionpress, as well.



Catterix said:


> I was wondering, how do you guys feel about the narrative of a book switching from 3rd to 1st person? ... The idea is that the book constantly flips between 1st & 3rd person, because of events that happen outside of Chris' knowledge, that he's not supposed to find out. And also, later, Chris becomes corrupted by his powers, and to make him seem more distant during this "dark period" the story's written in 3rd person and then switches back, and he talks to the reader as if he had no idea of anything that had happened during the "dark period".



Sounds interesting. So many "creative writing" books advocate messing with tense and perspective simply as a gimmick, but in cases like this, it has a lot of untapped potential as a storytelling device in and of itself. I, for one, would be curious to see how your experiment turns out.



Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The slipping back and forth needs to be clearly defined, usually at a chapter change. It's very annoying to be reading and suddenly change perspectives and it can get confusing.



This is a very important concern to keep in mind when toying with perspective. As long as there are clear cues in the text itself, it sounds like you've got a good premise for the kind of tale you're telling, Catterix.



Lord Yu said:


> Sometimes you can't control those things. Fans are going to latch on to whatever character they like.



True indeed. A little-known fact when I first started writing the Book of Hondo was that I was planning to kill off Nori the Cursing Faerie. She was supposed to be annoying, originally a parody of the fairy companions from the N-64 Legend of Zelda games (even her Faerie friends' names were also lampooning the Zelda naming style...), but she instead became a fan favorite right under my nose, so I instead introduced her obnoxious friend, Fuct the Politically Correct Faerie, and killed her off instead. And there was much rejoicing.

In fact, attempt to force a certain character on readers/viewers can result in frightening abominations such as .



The Cheat said:


> How do you keep a plot from becoming convoluted?



Wow, you just dropped a bombshell there. Probably the first troubleshooting question I can think of is: "Do you have a good handle on your subplots?"



Dream Brother said:


> You guys bothering to listen to music just before/during you write? If so, what?



My musical choices are usually a combination of my mood and the story's, though sometimes it is nothing more than white noise to drown out the outside world so I can hear myself think.


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## Munak (Jul 9, 2009)

Can I pitch in? 



> My magic system progresses from common psychokinetic abilities to harnessing the elements. An 'alternata' has the basic components of moving objects with his mind, but the process is tedious at best. One's mental power is equal only to his physical power.
> 
> The way to bypass this is to 'resonate' one's psychokinesis to the frequency of the element to be manipulated.
> 
> ...



Comments and suggestions are welcome.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 9, 2009)

@Neko: (can't quote because then I will break the limit) 

That was kind of my point, many people have problems with the usage of something in certain things, not really with it over all. I admit, some tropes bother me in the same way, one of the best example is the two machine gun wielding people in movies. Two guns doesn't make you better at shooting, in fact you'd be less accurate and have a harder time controlling either gun. 



Megatonton said:


> Can I pitch in?
> 
> 
> Comments and suggestions are welcome.



Interesting magic system, you've obviously put more thought into this than I have (I don't even have elements, the Angels and Demons just tend to have mastery over some substance or thing). I think I am most excited that I have a sound manipulator. 

She can make walls of sound and I was playing with the idea of having it get pretty ridiculous later on. I am not sure if you could even scientifically explain it, but imagine the idea that someone could swirl a cylinder of sound around themselves at such a speed bends the light and makes the person inside seem invisible, of course it would only work if the person inside was against something of solid color.


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## Pan-on (Jul 9, 2009)

Megatonton said:


> Can I pitch in?
> 
> 
> 
> Comments and suggestions are welcome.



You seem to have thought about this a lot, this is both a good and bad thing. It can be a cool little bonus to have an interesting magic system , mistborn has this and it makes the fight scenes really interesting and has plot relevance too, but are you going to give your readers all these details? If so I would think about it, do they really need to know HOW the magic works in detail? One of the things I personally like about magic in books is, well, how magical it is, how mysterious, explanations about the inner workings of magic are one of the many reasons i don't like the later sword of truth books.

What I'm talking about here, isn't your concept, but more the very detailed differences between the elements, having a magic system is fine but make sure you don't go into unecassary detail, it can be fun to work out, and even useful on occaison but if you don't have a reason to include it, my advice is to omit it.

@nekosennin, that was a hell of a post, I agree with what you are saying, im not going to not read something good just because it has prophecy in it, im just getting a little bored of it being used in the same way over and over, same with chosen ones, which is probably worse since they are almost always going to to have elitist connotations unless you subvert it and make them really normal.


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## Munak (Jul 9, 2009)

@Anon

Nope, I'll be leaving the speculation to my readers. It's plainly just for my crazy curiosity; I like to make sense of what I put in what I right. Besides, I don't think I can explain it inside the book without using the words 'manipulate' and 'frequencies'... too technical for what I am writing.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 9, 2009)

I think that its kind of hard to really do something that complex and not include some of it. I mean remember how Naruto talked about Chakra manipulation. Perhaps it was too much of an information dump, but you can actually explain some of it. Because it might seem kind of odd if the fire people are all drained out super fast and the wind guy is running around blowing shit down.


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## Munak (Jul 9, 2009)

@Cardboard Tube Knight

Hmm, you also have a point. Maybe I have to strike a balance between Anon's and your suggestions. I'll have to take notes.

(Nice thread, I think I'll be here for a long time. ^^)


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 9, 2009)

I am not a big fan of information dumps, some people think you should just do them but I think stopping the story action is kind of a no-no. At times we all have them and the like but I want to think that we need less of them, not more. 

I have been practicing the brevity of my words recently and at the same time there's more description coming out. I want to learn to use stronger nouns and verbs to eliminate the need for more words at the end of the day. So that when I have to explain something, it comes out short and sweet.

_Mastery of fire demonstrated the most prowess as it was wily and energy consuming.

_Something like that might be all I write for it really, and sometimes I might tack on more later. 

Right now though I am trying to do a short story, something to give me some down time between stories.


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## Pan-on (Jul 9, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I think that its kind of hard to really do something that complex and not include some of it. I mean remember how Naruto talked about Chakra manipulation. Perhaps it was too much of an information dump, but you can actually explain some of it. Because it might seem kind of odd if the fire people are all drained out super fast and the wind guy is running around blowing shit down.



it works better in manga because of the nature of it having pictures etc some info about stuff like how chakra works is good, but a lot, especially at once, is kinda of boring and pointless as you are essentially explaining how a made up thing works, there is usually no reason for your readers to know and its taking up valuable editing room

and for your example you could simply say fire is more exhausting and leave it at that, any more detailed info can come on a website or a databook or whatever

anyway megatonton seems to be going about it the right way, making an explanation for yourself is fine, probably even useful.

I actually love small details about some things, Harry Potter used to do it sometimes, I remember liking finding out what they got for christmas and stupid stuff but im glad she never decided to explain exactly how magic works, it just seems wrong to me.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 9, 2009)

Anon said:


> it works better in manga because of the nature of it having pictures etc some info about stuff like how chakra works is good, but a lot, especially at once, is kinda of boring and pointless as you are essentially explaining how a made up thing works, there is usually no reason for your readers to know and its taking up valuable editing room
> 
> and for your example you could simply say fire is more exhausting and leave it at that, any more detailed info can come on a website or a databook or whatever
> 
> ...



That's part of my point, its hard to edit with this hulk of text there explaining the ins and outs of something. I don't think that the Christmas present thing counts because that could show characterization or be used to in the right hands. 

I mean, would you write about characters in the bathroom? Well how about if you could use it to illustrate something. If I started a story: 



> James always peed leaning close to the wall with his hand sheilding his eyes from the person at the next urinal. Couldn't have them believing he was ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) or something. That'd be just another reason for them to use to beat his ass in the empty lot after school...



Its rough because I just vomited it out, but I mean it tells us something about this James guy and his situation. 

At the same time, the pictures do make it easier in mangas, plus using Naruto as an example of good writing is pretty bad in and of itself. I will comend them on one thing, when Kakashi said way back in part I that Sasuke is "the same type as me" that actually came back to make sense.


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## neko-sennin (Jul 9, 2009)

Anon said:


> anyway megatonton seems to be going about it the right way, making an explanation for yourself is fine, probably even useful.



Yeah, my own two cents would be to strike a balance between the need for information, and the need to keep magic... well... magical.

For instance, does the actual workings of magic have strategic or symbolic significance within the story? If so, much like the main example, Naruto, or also The Wheel of Time, for instance, it may be necessary to include at least a partial explanation of its mechanics, such as Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors or some basic limitations of what magic can and can't do within the world of your story. Much the same if one or more characters are learning or studying magic-- in fact, having at least one "apprentice" or n00b character can be a cheap way to fit in explanations, as long you don't disrupt the narrative flow too much with it.

At the other end of the spectrum is how mystical or fantastic you want your magic to seem, as having the old Ninja Play-By-Play can ruin that if you want to keep it cryptic and mysterious. It's something to keep in mind while writing it; there's always room for adjusting the level of revelation in the editing and rewrite phases.



Anon said:


> and for your example you could simply say fire is more exhausting and leave it at that, any more detailed info can come on a website or a databook or whatever



Not a bad idea, that last. Though it's important to keep at least an adequate amount of info in the original text. Some series-- WoT immediately comes to mind-- have a glossary or index in the back, but, much like a databook or site, I would recommend this is _supplemental_ material, but no substitute for gaps in the original story.

Also, even if you never reveal any of this stuff to your general reading audience, it is still important to think about the implications in the development phases. The better you understand the powers and limitations of magic within your story, the more consistent powers and feats will be, even if they are never explained. It's a good way to avoid Ass-Pull Feats or Inconsistent Power Levels.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 9, 2009)

The inconsistent power level thing is something I fear for my own story, since at a certain point the characters will become godly if I don't limit what they can do. 

Got an idea for a short story from something I saw in a picture, actually something pretty gruesome. And I have been wondering if I should do a series of shorts based on different cases and other things that my characters go on. There would have to be a wide range of stuff offered but this kind of all started with that story I posted on here, Students of the Universe, which has come to be pretty different than the version posted here. 

But stories like that could be some fun to write and put together really and it would be a good intro to some of the lesser known characters. 

Still something tells me that when I write them to leave out the supernatural element.


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## RaiRyuu (Jul 9, 2009)

Dream Brother said:


> You guys bothering to listen to music just before/during you write? If so, what?



I don't listen to anything specific, anything I'm in the mood for goes I suppose...

*EverEndingStory:* The story seems interesting, I liked the passage you wrote about the moon/clouds as well as the concept of Mary/Sophia...Any reason for these names in particular?

As for the part about Espers, I'm not sure I got it right; are you saying that anyone can be an esper but few people do it?

My story is kind of similar concerning the presence of a terrorist organization but its presence is revealed only to a select few and their actions while significant are hardly noticeable and mostly in the shadows. The presence of angels is also mentionned but as far as the characters are concerned it is only a myth and mostly related to one character.

In the first part of the story (there's a sequel) I don't really think there's really a 'main antagonist' unless you want to count the terrorist organization and that's only because it's directly linked to the main plot. However, I wouldn't count it as a main antagonist since its existence is barely detected even at the end of the first part while the presence of other 'vilains' is more recurent.




			
				EverEndingStory said:
			
		

> I actually almost consider it poetic prose, because it is written (and much of the themes based around and expressed aesthetically through) a style I call hyper-visual writing, which revolves around cadenced, abstract, simplistically-high-detailed, sensory-based descriptions, a style I invented, and am steadily developing, myself (I'm sure I'm not the first to use such a style, I only mean I am not copying a style I have ever previously read). I believe this allows me to paint very unique pictures in a person's head. Similar to an artistic painting or a piece of visual poetry, instead of blandly showing you an object or telling you that an object is their, it reduces the object to a very basic, rudimentary idea, and then plays with it, twists it and bends it for artistic beauty and to create an atmosphere and develop the theme. I kinda wanted to write this story as a graphic novel, because some elements would be best served in that medium, but still others would be best served with literary devices, and I do so hate those dreadful series' that have you hopping like a mad rabbit from medium to medium, so I am trying to create a style that allows me all the possibilities of both mediums. I am still working on it, not showing anybody the full idea yet but slowly injecting it into all of my stories and writings it progresses and I feel more comfortable with it



Would you mind giving an example? I'd like to see how that works...

I find that interesting and it is something I lack; I'm not really good at visually depicting things for the readers partly because I lack skill, partly because it doesn't really interest me but also because I don't like the readers to see the exact image I am seeing; for example if I am describing a city or an object, I only want the readers to get the gist of it, the more important parts and make their own picture/visualization, they way they see fit.



			
				EverEndingStory said:
			
		

> Magic Systems. Lots of people (well, not a lot, but at least four that I know) seem to be doing fantasy, and I wanted to discuss the magic system(s) within your world(s).



I haven't given it much thought, but I guess my magic system is rather simple; among other things, it's based on the concept of drawing energy from within and releasing it from one or more points of the body. It is a process that requires much training.
It is not directly related to physical power, but physical training (like martial arts) does teach you to channel your strength (energy) better.
As for spells, there isn’t much of that in the story and only a highly skilled select few can cast magic spells like teleportation, telekinesis, levitation and such since it requires a lot of mental exercise and the activation of certain dormant parts of the brain. You only see one or two performing such things.
Thus the use of magic mainly revolves around elements; lightning, fire, earth, wind, water along with two additional opposite powers, light and darkness which are rarely found even among skilled users.
I don’t really go into details in the story, but a person’s affinity is usually a subconscious thing; shooting a fireball for example is the way the released energy manifests itself when it leaves the body after being subconsciously molded in that way. There are few people who control more than one element and doing so requires broadening one’s mind extensively as well as tons of practice. Even then it is hard to use the extra element without lots of concentration and preparation unlike one’s natural element which can be used in the blink of an eye.
Being a subconscious action, an affinity to an element is related to one’s personality; someone with multiple personality disorder can wield more than one element depending on who’s currently in charge.



			
				Cardboard Tube Knight said:
			
		

> The inconsistent power level thing is something I fear for my own story, since at a certain point the characters will become godly if I don't limit what they can do.



How exactly do you know when one of the characters is become "godly" or strong enough to threaten the story?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 9, 2009)

Rai said:


> How exactly do you know when one of the characters is become "godly" or strong enough to threaten the story?



My characters are mostly humans, some Angels and half Angels too. 

The Angels are not present as often as the others and haven't appeared as of yet.

But the Half Angels are the issue. Some of them have abilities that grow as they learn to use them, my only way to limit them is to limit their power. So far the mock up power chain goes like this: 

Death > Nature > Might > Love > Music 

I was going to use the whole 6 wings were for the highest chior of Angels only. But I decided I would twist it to fit the needs of the narrative. Basically any Angel can ascend to that level...but the Angel's height in that chain would determine the amount of time they could sustain it. If they tried to sustain for too long, they'd basically be shredded apart by the energy. 

It's explained in my notes as being "opening a direct pipeline to the power of God." 

So far its the best way I can think of to keep them from being story breaking. *I consider something too powerful when the means to stop them would get too ridiculous. Or when the power gets world threatening. *


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## Munak (Jul 9, 2009)

Actually, I have pondered on that point as well. Specifically, a person manipulating time. How do you limit someone who can command such a powerful ability?

I have laid down a few rules so as to make him seemingly vulnerable when he uses it. I'll probably post it tomorrow. I'm getting sleepy. 

I think it is possible, though, to bring a person of that caliber down to plausibility.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 9, 2009)

Megatonton said:


> Actually, I have pondered on that point as well. Specifically, a person manipulating time. How do you limit someone who can command such a powerful ability?
> 
> I have laid down a few rules so as to make him seemingly vulnerable when he uses it. I'll probably post it tomorrow. I'm getting sleepy.
> 
> I think it is possible, though, to bring a person of that caliber down to plausibility.



I would like to hear about that, I actually am having trouble with my time manipulators/stoppers. I might just drop the power all together really.


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## EverEndingStory (Jul 9, 2009)

Alright, here is my magic system:


My magic system finds its foundation in Mu (nothingness), which is a distorted dream-like world lying parallel to the physical world, the matic. Magic is executed in the physical by weaving reality out of Mu, or basically, using Mu as a tool to perform feats otherwise impossible, in the same way one would use a plane or a pulley system.

The connection between the matic and Mu is weak, however, and the only way to manipulate Mu for most people is through music. In this regard, my magic system is pretty traditional, for magic is executed by weaving together sounds (thus it is possible for nature itself to accidentally create set off magic). However, doing it is a long and complicated process that most don't have the time for. When your in a battle or skirmish like my main characters find themselves in, you don't have time (or the thought ability) to weave together an hour long spell.

That is why magic in my world is based around caskets. Basically, one can seal the magic within an object (the casket), for it to be released later quickly, simply by touching it and breaking the seal with the chosen word/sound. Absolutely anything can be a casket, and early on, a street sign is turned into a casket, which is then "accidentally" set off by children, destroying the entire city.

The official, government sanctioned caskets are pentacles, which look like coins, and it is primarily through these that my characters operate, but in the beginning of the story the two main characters basically boobie-trap their home city in a web of caskets. Over their twelve or so years they have turned nearly everything in there in to caskets for their own use, giving them frighteningly God-like power in their job as "official heroes" of the city.  The main character is so powerful by the fact that he, dangerously, turns every single article of clothing and accessory on his person into a casket. His shoes, each shirt, his underwear, his pants, his socks, his glasses, his watch, all holding potentially deadly magic.

There is also the gnosis, which is considered a disease or a disorder in the world. Basically, the Mu is a twisted and incomprehensible place. Human's cannot fathom it and can only use it through sound and music. Some people however have a strange ability, or "disease", a curse and a gift, that allows them actual, access Mu (in varying degrees). This gives them incredible control over certain aspects of reality (one has telekinesis and another might be able to move through objects). You could consider these people mutants, kinda. They are often feared or looked down on, for their connection to Mu results in deterioration of the mind and possible insanity, the gnosis burden, making them a danger to themselves and society. 

And then there are the angels of my world, a race that utilizes that connection to Mu for their magic. They are no more Godly than humans, and cannot comprehend Mu anymore than humans do, but they don't have to. When they are young, they form pacts with nahualli, the beings that reside within Mu, and through the nahualli they have a tangible access to Mu with no harm to their minds. Nahualli have a vendetta against humans.

My world of Mary is somewhat realistic, aside from the magic and espers, and the fantastical beasts that appear within it come from Mu, naguals. A nagual enters the matic through ether clouds. Ether is basically stardust, and is the air of Mu. The barrier between the matic and Mu isn't strong, which is how human's and angel's can use magic in the first place. Where the bonds are weak, ether can slip through the crack, and where the bonds are weakest entire clouds of ether can slip through, and if the bonds are weak enough for ehter clouds to slip through, than a nagual can as well (fortunately nahualli are too large to pass).

To most, ether clouds are something to be feared, both for the beasts and for the potential side effects, because although the gnosis is something one can be born with as a mental "disease" it can also be gotten by access to the gnosis (thus was coined the insult and diagnostic joke "you've got ether in the brain"). Regular espers have no need for the ether clouds, but when someone has gnosis, being within an ether cloud and so much closer to Mu allows them greater ability.

Also, sometimes, but very rarely, ether can set, collect and harden into ether crystals, which are basically volatile, naturally occurring caskets. Magic with the physical world of the matic is never very strong, even with angels and their pacts with the nahualli, they have limits. But the illogical un-lawed dream-like Mu has no such limitations. Ether crystals originate straight from Mu, no processing through someone else's mind, and they possess magic far greater than what any human or angel can do. Of course, being a casket, it is just a one shot spell, and no one knows what that spell does, but an ether crystal is still highly sought after by everyone.​


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## EverEndingStory (Jul 9, 2009)

Rai said:


> *EverEndingStory:* The story seems interesting, I liked the passage you wrote about the moon/clouds as well as the concept of Mary/Sophia...Any reason for these names in particular?


Those names are levels of the Anima apsect, which is a complex within Carl Jung's Depth Psychology, which I subscribe to and which heavily influences many of my writings, especially this story. Also, Mary being the mother of Christ and Sophia, which means wisdom, is the female divinity within gnosticism.



Rai said:


> As for the part about Espers, I'm not sure I got it right; are you saying that anyone can be an esper but few people do it?


Basically yeah. It isn't a superhuman ability that only special people can use, it is more a highly technical and mythical science. I usually like to describe it by comparing it to the medical field.



Rai said:


> My story is kind of similar concerning the presence of a terrorist organization but its presence is revealed only to a select few and their actions while significant are hardly noticeable and mostly in the shadows. The presence of angels is also mentionned but as far as the characters are concerned it is only a myth and mostly related to one character.


What's the main story about, as in the characters and plot?



Rai said:


> Would you mind giving an example? I'd like to see how that works...
> 
> I find that interesting and it is something I lack; I'm not really good at visually depicting things for the readers partly because I lack skill, partly because it doesn't really interest me but also because I don't like the readers to see the exact image I am seeing; for example if I am describing a city or an object, I only want the readers to get the gist of it, the more important parts and make their own picture/visualization, they way they see fit.


When I finish it I will show this place first, but right now it is more of an ambition and goal. The only way to give you an idea is to show you a chronology of my writings, so you can see how I have decisively progressed more towards the style I am aiming at.

Yeah, I think it is because I was an artist before a writer, and so in stories when I am presenting something, I'd rather give an abstract description of what something is and allow them to figure it out and to construct for themselves how such a bizarre thing fits into this world and what it means, though it isn't as difficult as it sounds. 



With your magic system, I like the way you describe a person's elemental affinity and how they can change it. I've never seen it described so well, good work.


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## EverEndingStory (Jul 9, 2009)

Megatonton said:


> Actually, I have pondered on that point as well. Specifically, a person manipulating time. How do you limit someone who can command such a powerful ability?
> 
> I have laid down a few rules so as to make him seemingly vulnerable when he uses it. I'll probably post it tomorrow. I'm getting sleepy.
> 
> I think it is possible, though, to bring a person of that caliber down to plausibility.



I don't think time could not be controlled. Just like space, actually being able to control space or time would only succeed in completely destroying the very intricate woven fabric of it. Powerful indeed, but I don't see how that could work in a story (I would love for someone to use it in such a way).

When someone teleports they aren't really manipulating space, only their place in it. So, with time, they wouldn't really be controlling time, only their place in it, and thus that reduces the power to being similar to teleportation, or actually more akin to being able to run/move really fast. I believe such a definition limits the power a lot, but I don't know.

Or maybe they have only a limited influence when moving through time. Like, maybe their physical body doesn't move through time, just their conscience or spirit, and through that they can maybe talk to and have a creeping little influence in whatever time they go to, but not full influence, and their body stays living in their own time.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 9, 2009)

EverEndingStory said:


> I don't think time could not be controlled. Just like space, actually being able to control space or time would only succeed in completely destroying the very intricate woven fabric of it. Powerful indeed, but I don't see how that could work in a story (I would love for someone to use it in such a way).
> 
> When someone teleports they aren't really manipulating space, only their place in it. So, with time, they wouldn't really be controlling time, only their place in it, and thus that reduces the power to being similar to teleportation, or actually more akin to being able to run/move really fast. I believe such a definition limits the power a lot, but I don't know.


But your concept of time is flawed in that it doesn't take into account that time could be seen as a river flowing from a source. To time travel one would simply need to manipulate their place in the river.


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## RaiRyuu (Jul 9, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Death > Nature > Might > Love > Music
> 
> I was going to use the whole 6 wings were for the highest chior of Angels only. But I decided I would twist it to fit the needs of the narrative. Basically any Angel can ascend to that level...but the Angel's height in that chain would determine the amount of time they could sustain it. If they tried to sustain for too long, they'd basically be shredded apart by the energy.
> 
> ...



That's an interesting/unorthodox chain, do you have an explanation concerning the hierarchy or did you just choose it that way?

I also found the best way of limiting someone would be through self destructive powers. However, I don't think I've ever had someone with 'ridiculous' or 'world threatening' powers unless for an instant of a second (uncontrolled energy outburst or something).



			
				Megatonton said:
			
		

> Actually, I have pondered on that point as well. Specifically, a person manipulating time. How do you limit someone who can command such a powerful ability?



To be honest, I think it's best to avoid that power; it raises way too many questions, and makes the character way too powerful. If something of the sort were to be introduced there'd have do be some strict boundaries/limits to them. For example, the person can only travel/freeze time for a very limited period, and is bound by a time barrier (cannot go more than a year or 5minutes in the past for example) or needs some preparation (cannot manipulate time whenever they want), they need a certain item/artifact to achieve time manipulation and stuff like that.
I find time manipulation too complicated and too much of a headache as well as an overwhelming incomparable advantage.

*EverEndingStory:* Your magic system is rather interesting. The fact that it's related to music is also cool. I also liked the parallel world concept, I've never done anything like that.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 9, 2009)

Rai said:


> That's an interesting/unorthodox chain, do you have an explanation concerning the hierarchy or did you just choose it that way?
> 
> I also found the best way of limiting someone would be through self destructive powers. However, I don't think I've ever had someone with 'ridiculous' or 'world threatening' powers unless for an instant of a second (uncontrolled energy outburst or something).



The chain is just using the main Nephilim (half angels) from the story, there are others that would fit elsewhere. But its mostly based on rank in Heaven. Which may mean Love might have to be adjusted up, but I don't know if I want to. 

Death is highest because she's got some pretty heavy responsibility, keeper of contracts and Captain of the Four Horsemen, namely. Music is the weakest because she's not meant for combat.

As for the time travel thing, its a main plot point in my story for one of my characters. One way to fix long distance time travel is to say that you can only travel within your life, and when you go back, you assume the body from that time. 

It doesn't work that way for me, because that would still mess up my plot.


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## RaiRyuu (Jul 9, 2009)

EverEndingStory said:


> Those names are levels of the Anima apsect, which is a complex within Carl Jung's Depth Psychology, which I subscribe to and which heavily influences many of my writings, especially this story. *Also, Mary being the mother of Christ and Sophia, which means wisdom,* is the female divinity within gnosticism.



Inserting psychology related hints in a story is always interesting/fun (as long as used properly)
@bold: That was my first guess but I thought I was wrong...



> What's the main story about, as in the characters and plot?



It's about an organization that seeks to destory the known world using ancient long forgotten magic in order to rebuild it as it sees fit; some members wish to plunge it into permanent chaos and war, others want demons to rule over all, some wish to bring peace and think that while the plague that is mankind is in control this cannot be achieved, others are just tagging along for the ride and few have unknown unspoken motives.
In order to perform this great magic, they require certain special people, chosen ones if you want who possess certain forms of energy within them which cannot be found anywhere else in the world. 99.9% of the chosen ones are children since potential carriers lose that special energy when they grow up and only a select few keep it for some strange reason.
Most of the main characters don't really know what's going on but are searching for the children for their own reasons (it could be one is related to a missing child, one has been asked to investigate, etc)
Little by little, they begin to uncover certain things and think that they understand what's going on.
It is later revealed (in the second part) that everything they found out was wrong and it was an ingenious misdirection.
Something like that, it's probably not as good as what you guys write...

I'll post a bit about characters in my next post (can't due to limit)



> When I finish it I will show this place first, but right now it is more of an ambition and goal. The only way to give you an idea is to show you a chronology of my writings, so you can see how I have decisively progressed more towards the style I am aiming at.



Should be interesting to see...



> Yeah, I think it is because I was an artist before a writer, and so in stories when I am presenting something, I'd rather give an abstract description of what something is and allow them to figure it out and to construct for themselves how such a bizarre thing fits into this world and what it means, though it isn't as difficult as it sounds.



It's a nice idea, and it is somewhat difficult.



> With your magic system, I like the way you describe a person's elemental affinity and how they can change it. I've never seen it described so well, good work.



Thanks.



			
				Cardboard Tube Knight said:
			
		

> One way to fix long distance time travel is to say that you can only travel within your life, *and when you go back, you assume the body from that time. *



This hasn't been done much, but I think it's the best way to go. Still, I think time manipulation should be avoided unless it is absolutely crucial and necessary to the plot.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 9, 2009)

Rai said:


> This hasn't been done much, but I think it's the best way to go. Still, I think time manipulation should be avoided unless it is absolutely crucial and necessary to the plot.



I think it can be used if you clearly define it and don't make it trivial. The amount of power needed to move through time would be immense, far more than a normal character could sustain. 

In my story the amount of power is pretty much limited to one person. And the way that time plays out, the time travel one character does is part of the time line, she was meant to live to a certain point and go back and change things.


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## RaiRyuu (Jul 9, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I think it can be used if you clearly define it and don't make it trivial. The amount of power needed to move through time would be immense, far more than a normal character could sustain.
> 
> In my story the amount of power is pretty much limited to one person. And the way that time plays out, the time travel one character does is part of the time line, she was meant to live to a certain point and go back and change things.



I think it can be used in that way since it's limited and non trivial...However, I don't like the idea of going back in time in order to change things; going to the past to see/do stuff seems fine to an extent, but changing things is basically impossible to me; changing small things I can understand, but in the end the big picture/outcome should remain the same, ultimately making time travel useless in that way...but I'll just leave it at that otherwise we'll get dragged into a long time manipulation theory debate which won't go anywhere...

However, I am interested in how your character manipulates time; does she just think "I want to go back to 1938" and think real hard about it or is there some sort of procedure to do it?
Also does time manipulation have some repercussions on your character?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 9, 2009)

Rai said:


> I think it can be used in that way since it's limited and non trivial...However, I don't like the idea of going back in time in order to change things; going to the past to see/do stuff seems fine to an extent, but changing things is basically impossible to me; changing small things I can understand, but in the end the big picture/outcome should remain the same, ultimately making time travel useless in that way...but I'll just leave it at that otherwise we'll get dragged into a long time manipulation theory debate which won't go anywhere...
> 
> However, I am interested in how your character manipulates time; does she just think "I want to go back to 1938" and think real hard about it or is there some sort of procedure to do it?
> Also does time manipulation have some repercussions on your character?



It's not really a character, as the person never appears on page anywhere and is usually referenced as being there. But its actually God. 

I feel creating a character from God would seem arbitrary and would invalidate a lot of the work for the other people, but he's referenced as being there...its just that the events taking place have to be handled with a "Human Solution".


----------



## RaiRyuu (Jul 9, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> It's not really a character, as the person never appears on page anywhere and is usually referenced as being there. But its actually God.
> 
> I feel creating a character from God would seem arbitrary and would invalidate a lot of the work for the other people, but he's referenced as being there...its just that the events taking place have to be handled with a "Human Solution".



I guess it's different/more acceptable if it's god.

I don't really like having god interfering/present in stories unless maybe in a very subtle or symbolic manner...then again it all depends on the way it's written and creativity/originality.




EDIT: What do you guys think of regeneration or healing powers?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 9, 2009)

Rai said:


> I guess it's different/more acceptable if it's god.
> 
> I don't really like having god interfering/present in stories unless maybe in a very subtle or symbolic manner...then again it all depends on the way it's written and creativity/originality.
> 
> EDIT: What do you guys think of regeneration or healing powers?



Probably his only intervention is that time travel (which takes place before the first story starts) and at the end. 

And basically all my supernatural characters have some sort of fast healing or regeneration, the Angels can heal by touch. But it all comes from a finite energy source. While they can grow back an arm or leg by expending a lot of energy, the wings take a long time a month or so to grow back.


----------



## TwelveGauge (Jul 9, 2009)

uhh...slightly off topic but w/e:

I have to say that, although I love to write on my own and develop a plot, characters and story, I've found that doing collaborative writing with others can be also really fun....


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 10, 2009)

The beginning of _Written in Blood_

_If they had known what we?d done,_ Holly kept reminding herself, _they?d never let us do this. They?d never even let us be partners._

She stood on the side of the drive watching as the fake movers wheeled ?their? furniture up to the decoy house. All of it purchased on the American taxpayer?s dime. It amazed her that the government used such elaborate schemes to catch offenders. 

Lewis stood beside her, alternating between a _Lucky Strike_ and an ice cream cone. He only spoke in vowels as he tried to stave off a brain freeze, ?Mm, you really should try this, it was nice of the HOA to bring it by.?

?Not hungry,? she didn?t bother to look at him. ?Not sure if you noticed, _hon_, but it?s frigid out here.?

?It?s not that cold,? he took another quick lick. ?I couldn?t have done this at home without getting bitched at,? now he was taking a drag on the cigarette. 

Holly spoke in a diminished tone, ?What the Hell is wrong with you, we?re supposed to be the married couple??

Lewis glanced up and down the street, ?There?s no one out here,? Lewis said, ?I know you?re looking for any excuse to light that fuse on your tampon and go rocketing into some lecture.? He started up the driveway towards the garage door following behind two movers carrying an entertainment center. 

She clenched her teeth, biting back anything she might say that would be _out of character_. Just before he entered the house she asked, ?Where are you going??

?Jacuzzi.?

?Don?t smoke that in the house,? she yelled.

The house was a small modern thing, pressed between a pair of modest two stories. Even with real estate market being in turmoil, neighborhoods like this were still flourishing all around Houston. It came as no surprise that not everyone living in them was a law abiding citizen. 

Holly took a moment to regain her composure after Lewis left. She stood with her slender arms clutched around her frame in the breezy winter air admiring what would be ?their? house for the next few weeks. 

?Just moving in?? a shrill voice cut the air behind Holly after a few minutes. She whirled around to see a scrawny young lady in a bright red sun dress. _It?s too fucking cold for sun dresses._

Holly forced a prim smile, ?Oh, hello.?​


TwelveGauge said:


> uhh...slightly off topic but w/e:
> 
> I have to say that, although I love to write on my own and develop a plot, characters and story, I've found that doing collaborative writing with others can be also really fun....



Working on one now with Amnesia, albeit slowly. But its hard to find time to talk about it.


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## Munak (Jul 10, 2009)

Rai said:


> To be honest, I think it's best to avoid that power; it raises way too many questions, and makes the character way too powerful. If something of the sort were to be introduced there'd have do be some strict boundaries/limits to them. For example, the person can only travel/freeze time for a very limited period, and is bound by a time barrier (cannot go more than a year or 5minutes in the past for example) or needs some preparation (cannot manipulate time whenever they want), they need a certain item/artifact to achieve time manipulation and stuff like that.
> I find time manipulation too complicated and too much of a headache as well as an overwhelming incomparable advantage.
> 
> .



Tiem Maneepulation. 



I've saved myself the headache by not including the ability to travel to the past. Actually, traveling to the past is a lethal affair; as soon as he arrives at his destination, he will be trapped in that certain time frame, unable to move. Practically frozen in maelstrom. (Unless someone replaces him.)
Besides, it's an important plot device.

Also, the basics of 'atrochronism' (That's what I call it) isn't more 'manipulating time' rather than moving really, really fast. (Should have worded it better.) But one doesn't travel the distance like normal. Imagine a chess piece on a board. Instead of sliding it in place, you pick it up and plop it down in any place one wants.

His last limiter has his body being 'disintegrated' each time he uses this ability. It's fine for those parts that heal (the skin, bones etc.), but those internal organs that don't regenerate are the ones in trouble.

I'm tightening down the noose for this part of my story, haven't got it down pat yet. Again, comments and suggestions are welcome.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 10, 2009)

Megatonton said:


> I've saved myself the headache by not including the ability to travel to the past. Actually, traveling to the past is a lethal affair; as soon as he arrives at his destination, he will be trapped in that certain time frame, unable to move. Practically frozen in maelstrom. (Unless someone replaces him.)
> Besides, it's an important plot device.
> 
> Also, the basics of 'atrochronism' (That's what I call it) isn't more 'manipulating time' rather than moving really, really fast. (Should have worded it better.) But one doesn't travel the distance like normal. Imagine a chess piece on a board. Instead of sliding it in place, you pick it up and plop it down in any place one wants.
> ...



So its more like a quick teleportation? I played with an idea where someone could bend space (imagine space is a sheet, if you fold it you could walk somewhere far away in one step and bend space back to normal)


----------



## Munak (Jul 10, 2009)

Yup. That's one way to describe it.

I'm also considering a time-slowing field effect, but not total time-stop. Same limiters as well.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 10, 2009)

Megatonton said:


> Yup. That's one way to describe it.
> 
> I'm also considering a time-slowing field effect, but not total time-stop. Same limiters as well.


Moving really fast does actually slow down time.


----------



## Munak (Jul 10, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Moving really fast does actually slow down time.



For this particular case, I decided that it can be two separate abilities. (Disregarding all that I've learned from time distortion theories. )

On the first example, he moves according to the general timeline. He only skips a few 'pages' on that timeline, giving the illusion that he is moving fast.

On my other idea, he exudes the influence of his power on the timeline itself. Anything and everything in the universe moves to a crawl, except the caster.

In which case, the atrochronist will most likely use the first ability, since the second one will require vast amounts of stamina in order to use. (Or with an amplification device.) But its weakness (the first ability) is that someone who can read his movements will predict where he will arrive in the timeline.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 10, 2009)

So you actually name your um, attacks I guess I would call them, or techniques. I think I have given one a name it was something like Ultimate End in Latin and it burned someone's soul away so that there was nothing left. 

As for the time thing, I see what your saying, I have to be careful because I have human characters and other weaker races and if people get too powerful, the humans are useless. 

Toyed with the idea of soul manipulation to shield or help Humans...doubt I will implement it.


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## Munak (Jul 10, 2009)

Actually, atrochronism is a general term in my story for anyone that doesn't fit the elemental ability pool. 

Also, despite their seemingly devastating effects, my plan is to introduce at least a couple of expert spell wielders (maybe three or four) among hundreds of riflemen. (Which is why I am also at a standstill in balancing the dynamics of my field, wherein at least five to ten people with muskets can overpower an elemental wielder. Or at least that's how I see it should be.)

Mind if I got an overview of your previous works, CTK?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 10, 2009)

Megatonton said:


> Actually, atrochronism is a general term in my story for anyone that doesn't fit the elemental ability pool.
> 
> Also, despite their seemingly devastating effects, my plan is to introduce at least a couple of expert spell wielders (maybe three or four) among hundreds of riflemen. (Which is why I am also at a standstill in balancing the dynamics of my field, wherein at least five to ten people with muskets can overpower an elemental wielder. Or at least that's how I see it should be.)
> 
> Mind if I got an overview of your previous works, CTK?



You mean like a summary? 

Eh its hard for me to form it all into one really. 

The last novel, the only one completed for this rewrite more less starts with a dead demon on a beach and an abortion clinic bombing. Well the characters in the story are investigating these two things, not realizing that they are very closely connected. 

My stories are largely character driven (as the above piece probably shows). The main characters are *Lewis*, an FBI agent who has been fighting demons on the side for about fifteen years. His wife, *Ava*, who works as and FBI accountant and also has some dealings with the vampire clan in town. *Holly*, Lewis's new partner. *Stroud*, a former arms dealer who is just around with them it seems, but e has importance later, *Dee*, the Angel of Death, *Aiden*, Ava's brother, Virgil, Lewis's best friend who works with him. *Pellegril*, a vampire and Virigil's wife. *Colin*, Virgil and Pellegri's son. *Penny*, Lewis and Ava's youngest daughter and *Ashley* the older one. 

You can see how this gets complex because there's so many people and that's just the big ones. I rotate them out in different books and the like. But in the first book everyone is introduced that's there. The first story centers around the investigation of the abortion clinic, the appearence of more hostile demons and rituals all over town also kind of spurr them on as well as this mysterious man following Holly. It all pretty much wraps up but I don't know what to actually say about it more than that.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 10, 2009)

That's not alot of characters at all. Try this:
_*The Painter*_
*Michelle Auravelius(Maiden name Cassidy)* Wife of a dead man, Mother of a dead son who died by her own hand. Searching for her adopted daughter. Main character of this section.
*Cyrus Auravelius*: God of Alrusavera and Michelle's brother-in-law, might be helping Michelle, might be trying to kill her. No one knows for sure.
*Magalya Enzo*:  Daughter of Cyrus and Matriarch of The Enzo family, struggles with a simple son and ex drug addict of a husband.
*Bartholomew Soakes*: Ambassador of Riasade, apathetic, misanthropic, and boorish drunk. Also Michelle's newly discovered step-son.
*Jan Soakes*: Patriarch of The Soakes family and Halcior of Riasade. Some would call him dictator others would call him grandfather.
About twenty other characters named in this section that are not important enough yet to warrant a mention.
*The Doll and The Madman*
*Eridaltia Thomas*: Michelle's adopted daughter, her parents served Michelle and her husband before they died. Found herself transported to Alrusavera by some strange incident. The titular Doll.
*Nuriat*: Mysterious man(Monster?), mysterious powers, even more mysterious obsession with Eridaltia. The titular Madman.
*Aoi Ichikawa*: First Flower of Anezaie and Imperial Princess of Anezaie. 
*Zera Auravelius* Empress of Anezaie and sister of Cyrus Auravelius. At war with her brother. She has not made an appearance but I feel she deserves a mention.
*Aveyenka* Strange Musician that becomes friends with Eridaltia and Nuriat. She is a Luedsgar a water elemental.
*Sou* A strange and mysterious  Musician and pseudo philosopher among Aveyenka's group
*Usagi* Sculptor and sort-of loopy laugher of Aveyenka's group
*Yuri* Quiet drummer of Aveyenka's band
*Masao* Quiet guitarist of Aveyenka's band
*Urfa(artist name)* (In)famous artist and manager/patron Aveyenka's band and various artists. 
Many other mysterious characters await.
*The Fool*
*Gohei Kanahara* A sergeant in the Anezaie military's Hanzai no Senshi unit. Transferred to Black Wolf Base for shooting one of his men. The main character of this section.
*Junko Kirisaki* Gohei's superior officer, best friend and mentor. A former thief turned legendary lieutenant. 
*Kirei Uesugi* Lieutenant Colonel and second in command of Black Wolf Base. Cold and erratic, gives Gohei a career changing assignment.
*Mutsuko Asami* agent of the mysterious Winds of Spring. Gohei's subordinate for his mission. 
Anymore would be a spoiler. Tons more characters here.as well!


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 10, 2009)

I didn't name the villains or Angels or any of the Vampires though, just the ones for the first part of the novels


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## Lord Yu (Jul 10, 2009)

It is the same for me. These are all early characters.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 10, 2009)

Well I have been trying to lessen my number, combined a few into or two people this time.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 10, 2009)

My list is ever expanding. Everyone has their own distinctive role. I don't think I could make composites.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 26, 2009)

Arise thread! 

Go now! Do my bidding!

Why does this thread keep dying?


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 26, 2009)

Because my name is attached to it.


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## Chiyo (Jul 26, 2009)

I've decided on the title for my Nano novel this year, but I have no idea what it's about yet, other than a very rapid journey from catalyst to disaster.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 26, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Arise thread!
> 
> Go now! Do my bidding!
> 
> *Why does this thread keep dying?*



@bolded
Because writers mentality is often like Golem from Lord of The Rings when it comes to discussing their work in detail. 
---

GL with your stories! Mine is progressing nicely. I've broken 150,000 words.


----------



## Psallo a Cappella (Jul 26, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Arise thread!
> 
> Go now! Do my bidding!
> 
> Why does this thread keep dying?


 
I don't enjoy sharing my ideas. Once everything is put into words, it feels silly once I explain it all.


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## Tyrael (Jul 26, 2009)

I had an idea-

1st act: a second person story about a person on the toilet.

2nd act: There is no loo roll. Quest to get loo roll without waddling with trouser round the ankle.

3rd act: waddling occurs, and there is much rejoicing.


----------



## Munak (Jul 27, 2009)

100,000 words for you guys? I have a lot of work to do. 

(Got to about 4000, not counting the first chapter I'm doing now.)


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 27, 2009)

Daedalus said:
			
		

> You know what's stupid? Thinking that listening to "rules" will better your writing. It won't. You know why? Because when you start avoiding using words, saying "was", or start looking for "stronger" verbs, you're wasting time. When you fret over the construction of a sentence for twenty minutes just because there's an adverb in it that you can't get rid of, you become afraid to write. Soon enough, you'll start writing so little that it won't even be worth reading over again the next morning.
> 
> *There is no such thing as a "stronger" verb. And the dumb-ass that came up with that theory needs to taken out the back and have someone kick seven shades of shite out of him/her.* You don't need to avoid the passive voice, and the dumb-ass that propagated that theory should receive similar treatment.
> 
> You think your writing is better, Fame, because you didn't use adverbs? That's the most preposterous thing I've ever heard. Your writing is either good or it isn't. No amount of adverb-avoidance will make it any better or worse. The sooner you get that into your head, the better your writing will be for it.



Someone should kill people for being this stupid, after creating multiple strawmen he decided to make an ass of himself. Half the stuff he is accusing me of saying isn't even stuff I said or said I did.


----------



## Dream Brother (Jul 27, 2009)

I dunno, I actually see his point. (Although I'm obviously viewing this debate completely out of context.) I'm of the opinion that _anything_ can be useful in certain situations -- there are always exceptional circumstances where things such as the passive voice can be used effectively. Even though adverbs can often come across as lazy writing, I personally wouldn't completely eliminate them from my style, either -- I seem to remember King advocating their erasure, and his prose felt as dry as a wasteland to me.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 27, 2009)

Dream Brother said:


> I dunno, I actually see his point. (Although I'm obviously viewing this debate completely out of context.) I'm of the opinion that _anything_ can be useful in certain situations -- there are always exceptional circumstances where things such as the passive voice can be used effectively. Even though adverbs can often come across as lazy writing, I personally wouldn't completely eliminate them from my style, either -- I seem to remember King advocating their erasure, and his prose felt as dry as a wasteland to me.



Ah but the part about their being no such thing as a stronger verb? Total bullshit. In fact that sounds like someone who knows nothing. The only thing I had claimed to do was cut down my adverb usage, and it helped, not hurt. 

I have been advising people to try things out, try out tips. They're telling everyone that the tips aren't worth their time.


----------



## Narutard in footeh jamas (Jul 27, 2009)

110 pages into my second novel. I'm excited. This is probably incredulously random. Considering you are all most likely on a different topic. Oh well.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jul 27, 2009)

We don't have a subject anymore.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 27, 2009)

The subject is lost in pages and pages of


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## Tyrael (Jul 27, 2009)

Our subject is someone's mum. Could be anyone in this thread.

Apart from me, of course.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 27, 2009)

I've said this a million times. But I've found the plot. The Doll and The Madman has a plot. The Painter has a plot too but not a plotline. The only one with a plot and plan is The Fool. Isn't that a bit of an irony?


----------



## Tyrael (Jul 27, 2009)

Your mum has found a plot.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 27, 2009)

You're just jealous of my worldbuilding abilities and interesting characters.


----------



## Jarl lKarl (Jul 27, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Your mum has found a plot.



That _tramp_.


----------



## Tyrael (Jul 27, 2009)

Lord Yu said:


> You're just jealous of my worldbuilding abilities and interesting characters.



Your mum is jealous of my world building...

Well, you know the rest.



Thewrongway said:


> That _tramp_.



I know, right?


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## Lord Yu (Jul 27, 2009)

I still hate bagpipes.


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## Tyrael (Jul 27, 2009)

Well, we can't all have as impeccable taste as I. You are learning though. 

Okay, I'll stop being a dick now.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jul 28, 2009)

Tyrael said:


> Your mum has found a plot.


She's dead?  Or is she just preparing?


----------



## Happy Mask Salesman (Aug 1, 2009)

*Axel's notice*

I may be a n00b here, but I write my own fiction as well. Many are incredibly violent, yet I've been told I am good. I shall leave that to you to decide. Fairly regularly I shall post my work here for your evaluation. I await the results.


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## Psallo a Cappella (Aug 10, 2009)

Axel the Dark Hero said:


> I may be a n00b here, but I write my own fiction as well. Many are incredibly violent, yet I've been told I am good. I shall leave that to you to decide. Fairly regularly I shall post my work here for your evaluation. I await the results.


 
_BETA-sense twitches._

It isn't /that/ bad. I'm tempted to sign up to get into that poetry contest.

Edit: Signed up, waiting for confirmation.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 10, 2009)

I actually have the first copy of my novel printed out and on the corner of my desk, I need to go through it and try and order the pages correctly (because its chapter by chapter printed and the pages come out in reverse order. But I am moving forward.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 10, 2009)

Anon said:


> I joined, then didn't know what to do. I'm sure I will find something intersting on it at some point



Me, Tyrael and Ams have been pretty active there. I haven't posted any writing in a while though. But there are some really helpful people around.


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## Pan-on (Aug 10, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Me, Tyrael and Ams have been pretty active there. I haven't posted any writing in a while though. But there are some really helpful people around.



The only things I have to post would be past FF stuff and other really short things. 

I may post some on it at some point, I tend to join websites then forget about them for ages before randomly coming back and becoming more active, hence my pretty early join date here.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 10, 2009)

Anon said:


> The only things I have to post would be past FF stuff and other really short things.
> 
> I may post some on it at some point, I tend to join websites then forget about them for ages before randomly coming back and becoming more active, hence my pretty early join date here.



Writers Beat is good for asking certain questions, just beware the overwhelming attitude that fiction should be of one type and there is a right and wrong way that things should be done all of the time. But as far as improvement of pieces goes, there is a lot of help some of the members can provide with editing. 

Oh, look it:


----------



## Pan-on (Aug 10, 2009)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Writers Beat is good for asking certain questions, just beware the overwhelming attitude that fiction should be of one type and there is a right and wrong way that things should be done all of the time. But as far as improvement of pieces goes, there is a lot of help some of the members can provide with editing.
> 
> Oh, look it:



Yeah, its a risk you run pretty much anywhere on the net really, I'll give it a go though, I like writing short pieces and having them picked apart.

By the way did you print that with page numbers? Because if you didn't sods law says you will knock it off the table and spend the next day putting it back into order


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 10, 2009)

Anon said:


> Yeah, its a risk you run pretty much anywhere on the net really, I'll give it a go though, I like writing short pieces and having them picked apart.
> 
> By the way did you print that with page numbers? Because if you didn't sods law says you will knock it off the table and spend the next day putting it back into order



No page numbers, but its paper clipped by section and stacked in a cross form. 

The thing is I would have done page numbers but because of the length, nature of the way I printed and the type of printer it would have been harder in some ways. 

I did it chapter by chapter so in case it jammed I could just start over at that chapter. So it would have been tedious to number. I might just write the numbers in by hand in a bit here. 

As for the thing you said about finding that anywhere on the web. You can ask Tyrael, I got in some pretty stupid fights with 60 year old men who were name calling like they were 12. It was half funny, half pathetic.


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 10, 2009)

Found _The Painter_ again. Don't have a plot but I'm winging it.


----------



## Lord Yu (Aug 15, 2009)

I've finished my calendar. Now I have to come up with holidays for each culture. I might create another calendar as well for the sake of another culture. But first holidays.


----------



## Happy Mask Salesman (Aug 15, 2009)

I am still establishing my characters enough to see their true personality. Haha, every single one is different, yet all have a common bond: obsession with battle. Names vary, as well as occupations. My current is about a group of four people gifted with different powers. There are, in total, eight of them, but they broke off into two groups. If anyone wants to read the current draft, leave a profile message w/ an email in it.


----------



## Lord Yu (Sep 21, 2009)

I'm reviving this. I think of a topic.


----------



## Nawheetos (Sep 30, 2009)

Wow, I really need to get back into writing.  I used to do it all the time (ie. on the bus, in maths class, when I should be asleep etc) but I haven't done it for a while.  So many half written stories I've never finished...

Mind if I hang here?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Sep 30, 2009)

I had forgotten this was here.


----------



## Stalin (Sep 30, 2009)

So do I improve my writing skills thrugh writing?


----------



## Andre (Sep 30, 2009)

Yes.............


----------



## Happy Mask Salesman (Sep 30, 2009)

Of course. I'm currently working on at least 5 writing projects right now. I just have to find a new idea to advance the plot. I've written many pages over the course of a year, but nothing seems to be any good...


----------



## Lord Yu (Oct 1, 2009)

I've been studying how to assemble my story into one series. That and architecture.


----------



## Denji (Oct 8, 2009)

The novel I'm working on has hit a snag, so now I've got about 5 different short stories to grapple with. 

How is it that I have writer's block and yet be creative at the same time?


----------



## Lord Yu (Oct 8, 2009)

You're just off focus.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Oct 8, 2009)

I am moving back to doing more research and finding some interesting stuff (I didn't realize anyone remembered this thread was here)


----------



## Lord Yu (Oct 8, 2009)

This thread is my child. Of course, I would remember it.


----------



## Munak (Oct 9, 2009)

It could only be good, right? People are too busy minding their own works.


----------



## Velocity (Oct 12, 2009)

I'm working on some stuff. I have three main stories going on, but my central one is lacking feet to stand on. I've got the middle and the end sorted, but the beginning is eluding me pretty badly. Once characters are introduced, I can work wonders with them - but its the introductions that always mess me up.


----------



## Lord Yu (Oct 18, 2009)

Start at the middle and work out. Anachronic order is the hip thing to do.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jan 6, 2010)

Question:

How do you prevent a character you like becoming a Mary Sue or a spotlight stealer if they are part of an ensemble cast or not the main character?


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Jan 6, 2010)

Posting again because this does not appear bumped


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## Kuromaku (Jan 7, 2010)

Denji said:


> The novel I'm working on has hit a snag, so now I've got about 5 different short stories to grapple with.
> 
> How is it that I have writer's block and yet be creative at the same time?



It happens.  I've got a million concepts with potential written down, but every time I try to start writing, I lose focus and think up yet another concept that's interesting.  At this rate, I'll have a billion interesting ideas and nothing to show for it other than my notes.


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## Lord Yu (Jan 7, 2010)

My problem is sitting down and applying my plans. I have so many ways I could fix this mess. The Doll and The Madman is an absolute wreck and I have so many ways I could fix it. The Slave has a rough outline in my head but no ending.


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## Butcher (Jan 7, 2010)

I started mine a few Months ago,I named it _Death's List_,it's a Mystery Novel.I haven't got very far into it though.
Maybe more mystery books will give me more ideas for the story.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 7, 2010)

I am writing my ass off right now but I need to still get back on editing the first piece of work.


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## Stalin (Jan 7, 2010)

The Pink Ninja said:


> Question:
> 
> How do you prevent a character you like becoming a Mary Sue or a spotlight stealer if they are part of an ensemble cast or not the main character?


----------



## Bergelmir (Apr 14, 2010)

Thread Necromancy!!!

I have a question for you all regarding the point-of-view of a novel. I'm almost done with the outline for my story, but I'm thinking of experimenting with the point of view. What do you guys think of mixing first person and third person narrative modes together? The idea I have is to tell ninety percent of the story with the first person PoV of the main character, and then scatter in a few scenes with third person narrative that will show the doings of the antagonists.

I know that how well it works depends on the manner in which I use this, and of course my writing skills, but I'm mainly wondering if such a scheme is too jarring for the reader.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 14, 2010)

Mixed POV isn't that uncommon, but I think that it might be weird if its done randomly. I've thought about it many times, mixing third and first and almost always decided against it because I find I had no real reason to do it. I did it once, and it was just the prologue in first person. I try to keep everything in third when I write, normally.


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## Bergelmir (Apr 15, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> *Mixed POV isn't that uncommon*, but I think that it might be weird if its done randomly. I've thought about it many times, mixing third and first and almost always decided against it because I find I had no real reason to do it. I did it once, and it was just the prologue in first person. I try to keep everything in third when I write, normally.



Really? Damn, I gotta find some books to see how its done professionally then.

I'm with you that there is no real reason to do it. I'm really just testing this out to plug my own crappiness at maintaining tension in first person.

Thanks for the reply.


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## Tyrael (Apr 15, 2010)

The Black Company series is like that - the first book is purely first person, but after that it's divided between first person and third. China Mieville's _The Scar _combined the two in a pretty interesting way, although it's admittedly about 70-80% third. Those are the two examples that spring to mind.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 26, 2010)

My pace is sooo slow. I wander if I can ever get the pace I had in high school back.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 26, 2010)

Bergelmir said:


> Really? Damn, I gotta find some books to see how its done professionally then.
> 
> I'm with you that there is no real reason to do it. I'm really just testing this out to plug my own crappiness at maintaining tension in first person.
> 
> Thanks for the reply.



Onion Girl by Charles DeLint is mixed POV. 

I need to get back to writing lots


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## Tyrael (Apr 26, 2010)

Still need to read that, wasn't I the one who linked that to you originally.


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## Starstalker (Apr 26, 2010)

I'm currently working on my third novel and it should be done in a couple of months...this will probably be the one I will publish...took me 2 years to get the characters and the story done in details and now I have just finished the first chapter. It is fucking hard to find an original idea nowdays.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 26, 2010)

Which is why I don't bother with trying to be original. I throw in every awesome idea I can think of and discard what doesn't work.


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## Starstalker (Apr 27, 2010)

Lord Yu said:


> Which is why I don't bother with trying to be original. I throw in every awesome idea I can think of and discard what doesn't work.



Yes, but the difference between you and I is that you don't publish your novels so you can write whatever you want and I, if I want to earn some money, must be original or else some moron will come and call my book a rip off and that will piss a lot of people who won't want to buy it then :S


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 27, 2010)

Originality is hard to come by because most everything has been done, its more or less about finding a good way to write old ideas or an original way of going about it. Though if you get a good, solid, uncommon idea, you should hold onto it.


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## Tyrael (Apr 27, 2010)

Starstalker said:


> Yes, but the difference between you and I is that you don't publish your novels so you can write whatever you want and I, if I want to earn some money, must be original or else some moron will come and call my book a rip off and that will piss a lot of people who won't want to buy it then :S



Firstly, pretty much every novel is called out for being a rip off. Pratchett has been called out because _Equal Rites_, supposedly, was too similar to _Harry Potter_. Only _Equal Rites_ was released about ten to fifteen years before _Harry Potter_. _Eragon_ has recieved huge and widespread criticism for it's similarity to both _Lord of the Rings_ and _Star Wars_, yet it remains one of the best selling and most popular epic fantasies of recent times. None of these works are rip-offs of what they are claimed to be, but it shows that there are commonalities in books that appeal to people.

Which leads me onto my second point: people like to read familiar things. People don't want new or original ideas really. As CTK said, they want old ideas in a new way. There is a reason romance novels are so popular, why crime and thriller genres dominate the best sellers list. Originality is nice, but it is only one factor in making the story good.

There are core characters, core plots, that are mostly the same once you strip away the periphary detail. You can decorate the edges, subvert the tropes, but ultimately you'll have an idea that's derived from a multitude of different influences. I don't think there are original ideas, really, just new variation on the old.


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## Stalin (Apr 27, 2010)

Eragon is actually accused of being derivative.


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## Tyrael (Apr 27, 2010)

It is derivative, but I've seen it be accused of outright plagirism many times. The two tend to go hand in hand.


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## Lord Yu (Apr 27, 2010)

Starstalker said:


> Yes, but the difference between you and I is that you don't publish your novels so you can write whatever you want and I, if I want to earn some money, must be original or else some moron will come and call my book a rip off and that will piss a lot of people who won't want to buy it then :S



Who said I'm not trying to get published? Nothing is original. I concern myself more with writing about my interests than with trying to be original. Everything is a rip off of something. Hell, the bulk of the high fantasy genre is a an unashamed rip of Tolkien. Twilight is terribly unoriginal and just terrible and it sells like gold in a recession. Harry Potter isn't the most original thing ever and it's made billions. It's not really about being original it's about, well no one knows what it's about. It's what you decide what it's about.


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## Velocity (Apr 30, 2010)

Well, I looked over that and wrote some sufficiently vague stuff up in reply regarding one of the characters I've created for an original story I'm writing (or trying to). Anyone care to look it over for me and tell me if anything doesn't particularly fit or seems too forced? The character is very important to the story, so I want to make sure they're properly developed.


*Spoiler*: __ 



- When alone, Alfie always finds something to do - even if it's an action for the sake of the action. Something to take hold of his mind and keep his attention. He's always been like that, uncomfortable with silence or lack of movement.
- Alfie likes strong flavoured foods, reading books, watching documentaries (this in particular is important later on), watching the stars or simply sitting outside in the rain. Above all else, however, Alfie likes company. Alfie is largely a fearless person, willing to blindly jump into unknown situations or things that seem fatal, but he does fear his true power. So much so that he subconsciously holds back in fear of losing control of that power. He doesn't let others know, however, and most do not even know the power exists because of that. He considers Eli to be his closest friend, Finn his rival and Sarah his companion. He doesn't outwardly treat them better than others, sometimes treating them worse than he would others for the same mistake, but he confides in them more than anyone else and would even give his life for them if he could.
- Alfie has a cast-iron will, as do all of the Fyrstr, due to prolonged exposure to Essence's Will. Due to this, they cannot be swayed and are not easily manipulated. Alfie refuses to use his full power, as previously mentioned, due to what happened the last time he lost control. What happened them scars him more than anything since, thus fear could be said to be his reason for being so obstinant.
- Alfie's major flaw is his apathetic and amoral nature. He chooses not to interfere the majority of situations and only does what he considers to be the best course of action, even if that would put others in danger or goes against the agreed plan. As such, many find it hard (or even impossible) to get along with him as everyone has goals and desires and he has no interest in helping them even if their goals and desires involve saving countless lives.
- Alfie's skill relies exclusively on versatility and flexibility, thus forsaking out pure power for abilities that gift him with many ways to deal with many situations. His true power, however, is possibly the most dangerous of all. As Alfie does not have any control over it and because of what happened when he first and last used it, he blatantly refuses to use the ability ever again. But there is a time in the future of the series where that ability will be the key to deciding the fate of the world, thus being its reason for existing.
- Alfie is incredibly talented with the flute (ties in with the first point and his constant need for something to do) but, again, it only really exists because of a particular romantic scene I'll write later on in the series.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 1, 2010)

Looks like I got part of my stride back and found a new opening I actually like, I love the little surprises writing throws at me.


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## Lord Yu (May 1, 2010)

Just got back from a writer's conference.


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## Tyrael (May 2, 2010)

What did you decide to do about the international banking crisis?


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## Lord Yu (May 2, 2010)

We decided we needed to summon the Squirrel king from his slumber in the forest of Nor.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 2, 2010)

I am just shocked at the power to change the landscape of story that rewrites can have. I have just realized how much better i can make this with a few simple changes I am implementing to tie up loose ends.


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## Tyrael (May 2, 2010)

Lord Yu said:


> We decided we needed to summon the Squirrel king from his slumber in the forest of Nor.



Nah, the Squirrel King from Nor is in their pocket. He'll only create some half-assed, ill-enforced regulatory rules. We need someone who can shake up the system.


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## Lord Yu (May 2, 2010)

Then we must get Squirrel Girl.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 4, 2010)

Awesome! Full speed ahead.


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## neko-sennin (May 5, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Originality is hard to come by because most everything has been done, its more or less about finding a good way to write old ideas or an original way of going about it. Though if you get a good, solid, uncommon idea, you should hold onto it.



Yeah, that's about where I stand on the matter anymore. My characters take priority, as often any situation can be interesting if the characters experiencing are engaging and bring their own unique perspective to it. At the same time, I do try to keep abreast of what's going on, and what's been done, mostly in an effort to make sure my stuff isn't outrightly derivative.

Anyhoo, I've been rather busy lately, so I kinda forgot to bring it up earlier, but lately, I've been adding my stories to a site I recently heard of, Fan Nation, an archive of both original and fan fiction:

ARCHIVE:
done deal

FORUM:
Here

It's apparently a modest-sized rebuilding of the old FanLib archive, built on eFiction script. It's a modest-sized, but active, community of writers, betas, and fans of various scenes. I've already begun posting the first couple parts of Tradewinds there (going by my old handle of "shadesmaclean" as I do on Fictionpress, Ficwad, and Pennywisdom), and been looking through some of the original fiction there, and have already found some good stuff. (I especially recommend "Resonance" by Rydain, an eerie psychological horror story...) One thing I'd like to clear up beforehand for anyone deciding to register: due to the way the site was built when it was established, you have to register separately for both the story archive and the forms, but fortunately, their admins are very helpful, and answer questions in a timely fashion.

On the subject of Tradewinds, Part 16 has been very slow going this spring, so I have decided to step up the other half of my timetable, and start transcribing and editing Part 15, with a mind to release it in the near future, whether or not 16 is finished by then.


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## Kabomacho (May 5, 2010)

I've got a question for you guys. If you are about 4/5 of a way through writing a book, but you know that you are going to be severely rewriting all of it, do you stop and rewrite? Or continue, finish, then rewrite?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (May 5, 2010)

neko-sennin said:


> Yeah, that's about where I stand on the matter anymore. My characters take priority, as often any situation can be interesting if the characters experiencing are engaging and bring their own unique perspective to it. At the same time, I do try to keep abreast of what's going on, and what's been done, mostly in an effort to make sure my stuff isn't outrightly derivative.



I think to a degree everything you come across is going to leak into your writing, just try not to copy it too strongly, that's all I can say. 



Kabomacho said:


> I've got a question for you guys. If you are about 4/5 of a way through writing a book, but you know that you are going to be severely rewriting all of it, do you stop and rewrite? Or continue, finish, then rewrite?



Finish it, makes the rewrite easier.


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## neko-sennin (Jun 29, 2010)

*Tradewinds 15 has begun!*

Well, that whole jury duty thing, along with all the unfinished business in its wake, set me almost 2 weeks behind, but I finally finished editing Part 15 of Tradewinds. Thank you for your patience, everybody. Now, if I could only get more forward motion on Part 16...

*TRADEWINDS 15: "Against the Odds"*
_Wherein a new challenger appears, and Max faces a bet that can’t be won…_

Link removed


*Spoiler*: _excerpt, from Chapter I:_ 






> “…Pardon me, young man,” a voice said from off to Max’s left, “but my boss has a little business proposition for you.”
> 
> “Huh?” Only belatedly, Max realized he was so preoccupied watching the rooftops, that he had failed to notice several men approach the dock next to the ship. “What do you mean?”
> 
> ...






Between NF, Pennywisdom, the Mile, Ficwad and Fictionpress, this is the first time in the entire series that I've done a simultaneous 5-site release. Perhaps by the time I'm done with Part 16, I'll be able to make that a 6-site gig, after I'm all caught up at Fan Nation...


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## Hαnnαh (Jul 10, 2010)

I had an idea recently, but I don't really know if I want to discuss it just yet. I mention it to my friend occasionally, but even she doesn't know the _details_. Random italics are random.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 10, 2010)

I have been thinking about something more character and personality driven and less plot driven lately.


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## Hαnnαh (Jul 10, 2010)

I've always been character driven. I'll spend hours trying to come up with a story to fit with a character I came up with, refusing to abandon them.


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## Lord Yu (Jul 10, 2010)

Always good to see this thread alive again. I'm hard at work wrestling with the themes of my stories and trying to turn them into fine literature.


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## Hαnnαh (Jul 10, 2010)

I found some notebook I wrote it at one point in time and I'm just laughing my ass off at the unintelligent ideas I had. Though, some of them, with a little tweaking, could turn into good ideas. Maybe...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 22, 2010)

Might as well say this here too: 

It seems there's some BS aversion to description floating around. And  not even long winded description. I mean things like mentioning eye  color. Recently I posted a piece that had this line in it. 



> Marie returned to her home and was greeted at the door by her husband.  He was on the frail side of slender with blue eyes that pierced through  the distance.



The POV character is across the road and on her lawn which is what makes  the eye color showing at that distance peculiar. The guy isn't  complaining about anything else. Just the part about eye color. (and  actually in this case the eye color is important later)


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## Hαnnαh (Jul 31, 2010)

Alright, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna challenge myself and actually attempt to make something of myself. in about two weeks, I start high school. I've decided to try and finish my novel before I graduate, and, if that fails, by my eighteenth birthday (which falls about a month after graduation)


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## taiyo (Jul 31, 2010)

^Good luck with the challenge! =D

I have a story I want to write dealing with homophobia without being preachy. Then there's the vampire ones but I don't think I'll ever publish those thanks to the fetish fueled by Twilight (and they weren't even going to be anything like Twilight since they were inspired by Cirque du Freak...)

At the same time, working on a short story series dealing with small moments that leave big impacts.


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## Hαnnαh (Jul 31, 2010)

I haven't fully developed my plot yet, but there are lots of ideas swirling in my head. I'm going to write down everything I think of so that I can somehow tie it all together.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 1, 2010)

Glad to see this thread alive. Especially as now I have new ideas and productivity.


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## Hαnnαh (Aug 1, 2010)

New ideas, eh? I'd share mine, but this early in development, I doubt that it would make much sense.


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## Happy Mask Salesman (Aug 2, 2010)

After a long time of absence, I've started thinking about writing again. Though I've realized the greater amount of my ideas were complete garbage.


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## Mikaveli (Aug 9, 2010)

I never would have thought that Literature interested me. Reading was always something I didn't mind doing, but I'm slowly loving it. I may even start writing. So, I guess if I ever begin, I'll post details here.

I'm thinking I won't be able to do much until I finish my senior year. I have so many ideas though.


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## Buskuv (Aug 9, 2010)

Lord Yu said:


> Glad to see this thread alive. Especially as now I have new ideas and productivity.



You need to update me on this shit.

I wish I had the follow through that you do.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 10, 2010)

Foucault's Pendulum has inspired me to make a map of secret societies in my world. I'm going to try and be as detailed as possible in my made up history.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 10, 2010)

My progress is down below, seven thousand words in the last two days and the hardest thousand is now behind me.


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## taiyo (Aug 14, 2010)

^Congratulations! 

I had a weird dream last night and I just might try to use it for Halloween or that national novel writing month thing (I have yet to actually try that in my life)


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 14, 2010)

taiyo said:


> ^Congratulations!
> 
> I had a weird dream last night and I just might try to use it for Halloween or that national novel writing month thing (I have yet to actually try that in my life)




Thanks, I am still not done, the meter is just run over down there. 

And why not start writing it now, November is a long time to wait.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 14, 2010)

I realized my section _The Slave_, has almost all the elements of Noir.


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## Hαnnαh (Aug 14, 2010)

taiyo said:


> I had a weird dream last night and I just might try to use it for Halloween or that national novel writing month thing (I have yet to actually try that in my life)



I had a dream that could be a good idea if I take out the Azumanga Daioh characters that guest starred, the talking waffles, and anything else that makes it as ridiculous as a dream. It had a good plot overall, where the world slowly but surely corrupted and soon was plunged into fighting and those that were purehearted hid, some slowly going insane, others afraid to even look out the window. Too bad my dream ended before anything slightly conclusive could happen.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 14, 2010)

Lord Yu said:


> I realized my section _The Slave_, has almost all the elements of Noir.



Make sure its written in black and white. 

I actually don't know much about Noir, though some of the stylistic traits do seem interesting. 



JHxXBadRomanceXxJH said:


> I had a dream that could be a good idea if I take out the Azumanga Daioh characters that guest starred, the talking waffles, and anything else that makes it as ridiculous as a dream. It had a good plot overall, where the world slowly but surely corrupted and soon was plunged into fighting and those that were purehearted hid, some slowly going insane, others afraid to even look out the window. Too bad my dream ended before anything slightly conclusive could happen.



Talking waffles? That could make for a good character.


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## Hαnnαh (Aug 14, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Talking waffles? That could make for a good character.



My dad killed the talking waffle and Chiyo-chan and I (only I was really Yomi for some reason) cried for the loss of the waffle.


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## taiyo (Aug 14, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Thanks, I am still not done, the meter is just run over down there.
> 
> And why not start writing it now, November is a long time to wait.



Hehe, no problem; good luck with the rest! 

Perhaps, I am pretty psyched for it. <3

^The dream sounds really good for a story! =D Seriously if I saw it at a store, I'd check it out. And like Cardboard Tube Knight said, the talking waffle part would've been cool. ^_^ Poor waffle. X3 Why do the good die young? <3


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## Hαnnαh (Aug 14, 2010)

I know! It was just trying to stop the fighting and ended up murdered. I might replace the waffle with a school child because I liked it's purpose.


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## ukesasukekun (Aug 18, 2010)

*I was thinking of writing some yaoi or something  I have been told i'm rather good at it, but I doubt that alote. I didn't write too much, i was on my 7th chapter, though, they were big chapters D:*


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## Butcher (Aug 18, 2010)

I'm writing a book where two serial killers face off.

You don't see plots like this much.


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## The Pink Ninja (Aug 18, 2010)

Oh man, I love creating fantasy story ideas and their settings where everything comes together and one idea leads to another in a logical progression. So much fun...


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 18, 2010)

Butcher said:


> I'm writing a book where two serial killers face off.
> 
> You don't see plots like this much.


*Looks at his Dexter avatar*

You see it in the first season (and first novel) of the series from your avatar.


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## The Pink Ninja (Aug 18, 2010)

Different enough if neither of them are "cops"


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 18, 2010)

The Pink Ninja said:


> Different enough if neither of them are "cops"


True but anyone who's seen or read Dexter will probably associate it with that. 

I hate thinking when I write something that anyone who has seen "X" will totally think about that here. Though in some cases its inevitable.


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## The Pink Ninja (Aug 18, 2010)

It's always inevitable. I doubt there's anything that can't be described as a combination of other works, or with some variable changed.

But there's a universe between "This has serial killers like Dexter" and "This is a just a rehash of Dexter."


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## Butcher (Aug 18, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> *Looks at his Dexter avatar*
> 
> You see it in the first season (and first novel) of the series from your avatar.


Their not part of the police force,plus they know their both hunting for each other.

And they don't kill people on a table. I can see similarities though. 

Also nothing is original these days.


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## The Pink Ninja (Aug 18, 2010)

Nothing is original. At least half of Shakespeare's stuff was re-writes of other stories.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 19, 2010)

Thing is I try never to do something solely because its original, I have to have some point and be able to write it in a way that it works for me. I pulled something that most people I talk to about it say they've never heard of, but I wanted it to have some basis what people really call magic and I wanted it to fit in with the world and enhance and shape the world in a special way. 

An original sounding idea is a good thing, but trying to think of something that just isn't done often to do it first or be known for it sounds like it wouldn't work as well.


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## Happy Mask Salesman (Aug 21, 2010)

My own problems are that I can never quite accomplish character development as well as world development. Everything seemed decent as as idea, but my execution of such ideas is subpar.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 21, 2010)

I have no skills for world development and I am all character development.


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## The Pink Ninja (Aug 21, 2010)

Axel the Dark Hero said:


> My own problems are that I can never quite accomplish character development as well as world development. Everything seemed decent as as idea, but my execution of such ideas is subpar.



It's called writing. Getting ideas? That's the easy bit. Writing them down in a story, doing a good job and editing it until it shines, that's the hard part.

The solution?

1) Read good books of all genres

2) Keep practising by writing writing writing. It takes about 10000 hours to get really good at something so have fun with that.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 21, 2010)

The Pink Ninja said:


> It's called writing. Getting ideas? That's the easy bit. Writing them down in a story, doing a good job and editing it until it shines, that's the hard part.
> 
> The solution?
> 
> ...



I've been writing since I was about 12, I think I've got that many by now


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## Sky is Over (Aug 24, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I've been writing since I was about 12, I think I've got that many by now



And a quick question, did you ever get to writing that naval book?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 24, 2010)

Sky is Over said:


> And a quick question, did you ever get to writing that naval book?


Naval? I don't think I was ever working on one, I'm working on a book right now about Angels and demons and the like.


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## Sky is Over (Aug 24, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Naval? I don't think I was ever working on one, I'm working on a book right now about Angels and demons and the like.



Ah okay, just curious.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 24, 2010)

Sky is Over said:


> Ah okay, just curious.


I mean, my stuff does involve a lot of weapons, and there might be military stuff later (I think that's what I might have talked with you about before) I was talking about having part of the story set in Afghanistan in the war area.


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## Sky is Over (Aug 24, 2010)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I mean, my stuff does involve a lot of weapons, and there might be military stuff later (I think that's what I might have talked with you about before) I was talking about having part of the story set in Afghanistan in the war area.



I'd look into the Gin just to add a bit of mysticism, but anything for weapons, feel free to ask.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Aug 24, 2010)

Sky is Over said:


> I'd look into the Gin just to add a bit of mysticism, but anything for weapons, feel free to ask.


Gin? 

And I will, thanks.


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## neko-sennin (Sep 21, 2010)

*Featured Author interview! (toots own horn)*

Whoa... This section's been dead for a while, hasn't it?

Anyhoo, earlier this spring, I started posting my stories on a fan/original fiction site called Fan Nation (done deal), and recently, my short story, The Road Trip, was nominated as a Featured Story:

done deal

Along with that, I also received a Featured Author interview for it on the forums. But since their message board is a private forum, I will re-post the interview here:



			
				Claremonty said:
			
		

> 1. How did you come up with the original idea for this story? Are there any books or films or other media that inspired you?





			
				shadesmaclean (neko-sennin) said:
			
		

> The original idea was inspired by an old friend of mine from middle school, with whom I used to make up our own stories during recess. His father had an extra pickup he had promised him when he turned 18, and back then, we promised each other we would go on a road trip to Alaska after we graduated. Sadly, between middle school and high school, I moved to another town on the other side of the state, and we fell out of touch. This story was an odd sort of wish fulfillment, both for the road trip we never got to take, as well as my old childhood desire to have something mysterious and unexplained happen to me at least once in my life.
> 
> While Stephen King's short story "The Mist" was definitely an influence, as well as my vague childhood glimpses of the original Twilight Zone, most of my inspiration came from a couple Lovecraft anthologies my roommates picked up back then, that being my first time reading any of his stories. The oppressive, ominous atmosphere, as well as that existential weight of a reality human science has only begun to scratch the surface of, resonated with the kind of tale I wanted to tell.





			
				Claremonty said:
			
		

> 2. I loved the spooky desert settings in the story. Were they based on real places you've been?





			
				shadesmaclean (neko-sennin) said:
			
		

> In this case, it all came from my imagination. Sadly, I've never been to the American Southwest (the closest thing I've ever been to it was some of eastern Montana's badlands), but I've always wanted to go there some time, even more so after reading several Tony Hillerman novels in recent years. More than anything, I was pulling my atmosphere from how spooky highways look when driving at night, and the fog was just a natural extension of that, our protagonists' first clue that things were not right.





			
				Claremonty said:
			
		

> 3. I really enjoyed your use of the first person perspective. It amplified the fear of the unknown you successfully cultivated throughout the piece. I particularly liked the scant details you provided about your narrator - we never even learn his name. Did you limit your description of him to invite readers to project themselves into the story? What were your reasons for choosing this approach?





			
				shadesmaclean (neko-sennin) said:
			
		

> I originally left his name out because he was something of a self-insert. I wrote the story over the space of a couple weeks, on my days off, since back then I only had computer access at Knight Library (U of O). (I'm just lucky that I thought to copy the original text into drafts in my e-mail account, as later on the message board I posted it to died, and this story might have been lost forever.) I was racing against time to finish it before Halloween, barely pulling it off, and even the part about the whole account turning out to be something the narrator wrote down at a rest step didn't come to me until near the end. Which is ironic, since he could just as easily written something like "My name is So-And-So, and this is my story," but anymore I'm glad I didn't think to do that.
> 
> Unless I'm writing about myself, such as personal accounts or about my dreams, first person never really fit right into my writing style, but perhaps a bit of those Lovecraft stories I was reading (as he was more inclined to write from the first person) simply rubbed off on me. One of my goals with this story was to try my hand at a first person epistle kind of format, so I was trying hard to project myself into the main character's shoes, to make the first person perspective more compelling. The scant personal detail was mostly an attempt to buffer against making it too autobiographical even while trying to be honest with myself and stay in character. Though not my original intention, it seemed to have worked out for the best, as it seems to allow a lot people to put themselves into the nameless protagonist's shoes.





			
				Claremonty said:
			
		

> 4. What struggles did you encounter and how did you overcome them?





			
				shadesmaclean (neko-sennin) said:
			
		

> I already mentioned my first hurdle, which was spontaneously starting a story for Halloween in mid October, but there was also the fact that I have never been very good at writing first person, it just typically doesn't flow unless I'm writing about myself. If nothing else, I learned a valuable lesson about the pitfalls of being too dogmatic about self-imposed deadlines. The greatest challenge, though, was in picking a setting from my Tradewinds universe, the implications of which didn't start to become apparent until about halfway through.
> 
> Back then, I had finally finished writing the Book of Hondo, but my attempt to rewrite Tradewinds had gotten stuck in the middle of Part 3, what would turn about to be about a year-and-half-long dry spell, by far the worst case of writer's block I've ever suffered, so I started writing short stories for which ideas had been kickin' around in my head for a while. I ended up omitting certain names and details in the oldest version of The Road Trip to leave out the Tradewinds references, since I wasn't ready with that yet. For a long time, I didn't re-release the story again until after Tradewinds 4 and 5 were ready, and it was a relief to finally flesh out the setting details, which leads us to the last question...





			
				Claremonty said:
			
		

> 5. You ended The Road Trip at a very suspenseful moment. I want to know what happens next. Is there a sequel? Is this story connected to your Tradewinds series?





			
				shadesmaclean (neko-sennin) said:
			
		

> I originally ended the story where I did to avoid creating spoilers for the Tradewinds main story. More years in advance than even I anticipated. I also stopped there because sometimes the best horror stories are open-ended. Rest assured, though, that even though there is no direct sequel, Max & Company will visit Mesa District in the course of their journey, and Project Metronome will be as much a part of the story as Project Pythagoras was in Tradewinds 14. To give details would be cheating, but they will definitely encounter clues about what became of The Road Trip characters, and whether or not they made any progress investigating the research lab.



Anyone who wants to read the story can also find it here on NF:




*Spoiler*: _Tradewinds update_ 



The Summer of Interruptions is finally over (jury duty, internet troubles, repairs/remodeling, bed bugs, fumigation, carpet steaming, building inspections, etc...), so now I'm embarking on the Autumn of Catching Up, and have finally been making some headway on Tradewinds 16. But I work in retail, and the holiday season is looming, so I'm hoping to finish it before my holiday hours put my projects back in gridlock. Lately I've had a series a almost head-rush epiphanies that may have just connected the dots from Part 17 all the way through at least 22, so I'm hoping the subsequent installments in the series won't take me as long as 16 has.


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## neko-sennin (Dec 21, 2010)

*WARNING! Writer's Network is a ripoff!*

Earlier this month, I attempted to join a writing site called Writer's Network, and learned an unpleasant lesson about deception and cheap scams. Writer's Network lies in their FAQ, claiming, and I quote, "No Catch!" to its "Free" membership, and then spring the catch on you AFTER you've created an account.

What they DO NOT explain to you anywhere in their promotion is that it costs 5 "points" to post something. And how do you get points? There are only 2 ways: BUY them (yes, you read that right, you have to PAY for a "FREE" membership), or else you have to write 300 word book reports on other people's work to earn them. 100 = 1 point, but you can't go over 300 for one piece, so you have to write 500 WORDS like homework, just to post ONE PIECE of your own. They give you 20 points (translation 4 POSTS) as a starter, and that's how far "free" goes there.

Now, I have no beef with writing reviews, but twisting people's arms into it, even if they have nothing in particular to say, other than maybe "Good story" is just a recipe for fluff. And then presuming to slap a word count onto it, as if volume = substance, is just going way too far.

Read for yourself, and see if they mention this shit anywhere in their FAQ:

Beckenbauer proposes that the 2022 WC is played in January

Beckenbauer proposes that the 2022 WC is played in January

If they have mentioned their little bullshit scheme in the FAQ, I never would have bothered to register, but they apparently assume that once you're emotionally invested in posting your work, it will pry open you wallet or pressure you to spend more time writing about other people's work than working on your own. And since Writer's Network lies to you every step of the way, I wasted an entire night of my life setting up an account, which was what really pissed me off.

I'm not getting any younger, and you don't have to lie to make friends. Writer's Network is a Grade A scam, and I just wanted to give my fellow writers a heads-up on them, so they y'all don't end up wasting your time like I did.


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## Orochimaru Kusanagi (Dec 22, 2010)

I have been on and off with my novels, one is about love, sisterhood, and Anime in Boston. 
The other is about a girl who is bullied, but becomes a rising star


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 22, 2010)

I's doin' the fan fiction is all these days. 

What if I really always typed like that


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## Happy Mask Salesman (Dec 23, 2010)

I feel like somehow reviving this thread. Or at least contributing to its revival. So, I will mention that I am working on another plot, which has already received a few reviews. I'm thinking that it will be better than anything I've written so far, though...I'm stuck.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Dec 23, 2010)

This thread's made more comebacks than Madonna.


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## LifeMaker (Dec 23, 2010)

I'm trying to write a novel, it's a pain in the ass  

You set aside a few chapters for character development and then you discover it's not enough, and it seems forced, so you add another plot line in to give more time, but it disrupts the flow, and then...

gah... i've been working on it for six years and i'm barely half way...

I can sympathise with George RR Martin at times


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## Happy Mask Salesman (Dec 23, 2010)

That's true. Though I feel slightly obligated to post a piece of my own novel up. 
Oh, yes, I've been working at writing something decent for 7-8 years, and I've found that only recently have I been able to churn out something worthwhile to read, if not still bad.


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## taiyo (Dec 24, 2010)

Hmmm....so it's okay that I'm struggling with a storyline that I came up with a year ago? That sort of made me feel better. Best of luck, LifeMaker and Axel the Dark Hero. ^_^

On a somewhat brighter side, that short story "anthology" I wanted to write based on a dream, it's almost done in the first draft. I just want to find some way to explain an event/get the theme across without it being too cheesy or a total copout.


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## Happy Mask Salesman (Dec 26, 2010)

Thanks. My main problem is that I'm too concise with my plotline, and can't keep it rolling long enough to finish. But, I've gotten the majority of the first chapter done without too many flaws, so that keeps me going, at least for awhile.


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## Origami (Jan 3, 2011)

_I'm writing a novel, been working on it since 15 y.o .. which makes two years ago. The thing is I like writing in English, it's easier than my native, which will be disregarded here =x but anyway, the novel is 118 pages and I've stopped. 
It's bad and I'm getting discouraged every single day by my own self that tells me "Your writing is an absolute fluctuation," or "You're an epic fail!"-- you know, discouraging retorts. 

But that doesn't mean I'll stop writing, because basically, it's the only thing I get praised on which means, the only thing I'm semi-good at. 

It's a horror novel, a bit of fiction, romance and a mass of concentrated confusion. _​


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 3, 2011)

Getting discouraged is pretty much par for the course, you have to learn to ignore it and just press on. I spend a lot of my time pushing all of those kinds of thoughts down in my head and pushing on with what I am doing. One thing to remember, and you might not know this being younger and all, is that novels you see on store shelves didn't just come that way in the first draft, if a published author showed you their draft, you'd be shocked to see it laden with mistakes and even some bad writing. So don't unfairly compare to their finished product before you edit.


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## Lord Yu (Aug 25, 2012)

I'[m resurrecting this thread from it's long and terrible slumber.  185,000 words in two years.


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## Tazmo (Aug 25, 2012)

This thread is now closed it has a continuation thread *Here*


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