# Demi-Fiend vs Abel



## Azure Flame Fright (Jul 11, 2010)

Which Shin Megami Tensei protagonist is really the strongest? 

The Demi-Fiend from Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne

or Abel from Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor

This is the strongest version of both.


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## Kamen Rider Ryoma (Jul 11, 2010)

What are Abel's feats?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 11, 2010)

Abel best be strong cuz Hitoshura fought Lucifer to a stand still.


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## zenieth (Jul 11, 2010)

I'm pretty sure Aleph is the strongest.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 11, 2010)

zenieth said:


> I'm pretty sure Aleph is the strongest.


 Considering he commited Deicide, no shit.


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## Blaizen (Jul 11, 2010)

Well , Abel at the end of the game obtains power that can rival God's


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 11, 2010)

Blaizen said:


> Well , Abel at the end of the game obtains power that can rival God's


 And Hitoshura can match Lucifer.


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## Blaizen (Jul 11, 2010)

basch71 said:


> And Hitoshura can match Lucifer.



Am I missing something? Is Lucifer as powerful as God?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 11, 2010)

Blaizen said:


> Am I missing something? Is Lucifer as powerful as God?


 Lucifer=Yahweh in power or he would've been dead from the start. And guys like Aleph can kill Yahweh. Although Yahweh isn't the strongest since Brahman from DDS2 is above him.


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## ryne11 (Jul 11, 2010)

This is provided neither side can use demons

The Demifiend was created outside time, giving him unlimited potential. He is above Lucifer at the end of the game (Lucifer only fought the Demifiend to test the Darkness within him. Kagastuchi was probably above Lucifer, and it was an Avatar of YHVH (it even pays homage to the Megami Tensei II YHVH design)) and was created to defeat YHVH for the last time after time collapsed on itself. Plus the Masakados Magatama makes him immune to all attacks Except Almighty (Earth and Gun too if you factor in the DDS games, but that fight isn't Canon) (Plus, removing gameplay limitations of 8 skills per person, he should have countless techniques ranging from every element, type, support, and recovery) 

Abel is just the diluted reincarnation of the fist Martyr who obtained the powers of the god who was worshiped as God until YHVH defeated him and split his powers up. I fail to see how all the Bel demons combined again would be able to defeat YHVH when He beat them down before. Granted, the Bel demons were being worshiped more, but in the present day the God of Abraham has FAR more worshipers due to the larger population that in the B.C. times. Lucifer wasn't even interested in the War of Bel. If Abel had such potential, Lucifer would have tried to manipulate Abel like Loki and Nayoa into going against YHVH

Using actual gameplay, I can solo Lucifer with only the Demifiend on Hard mode. With 4 level 99 protagonists and the strongest demons, Abel and the others can be wiped out by Megalodyne if you don't defeat Lucifer fast enough. Abel would only be able to use almighty moves to harm the Demifiend (provided The Demifiend has Physical Repel, as Abel could have Pierce) that being Holy Dance and Megalodoan. Those do not cause enough damage to any enemy who is near or above their level to one shot or even to a quarter damage, especially to a full strength Demi-fiend. Moreover, applying the same logic, a Focus+Pierce+Fruikekel combo cannot be blocked at all, as no enemy can repel Almighty attacks and only 3 enemies I know can resist/Nullify Almighty (Noah after a Phase Shift, Lucifer, and Huang Long when defending. I don't recall if Satan can)
I wonder if I will be called out for being full of shit


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## Kamen Rider Ryoma (Jul 12, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Lucifer=Yahweh in power or he would've been dead from the start. And guys like Aleph can kill Yahweh. Although Yahweh isn't the strongest since Brahman from DDS2 is above him.



Bullshit. YHWH is the strongest being in Shin Megami Tensei.


And Aleph didn't kill YHWH. He beat him. Then YHWH cursed Aleph for all of eternity. Cue see Hijiri, there is your Aleph.


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## Azure Flame Fright (Jul 12, 2010)

ryne11 said:


> This is provided neither side can use demons



Yeah, it'd turn into a demon bumrush against the Demi-Fiend if that were the case.



> The Demifiend was created outside time, giving him unlimited potential. He is above Lucifer at the end of the game (Lucifer only fought the Demifiend to test the Darkness within him. Kagastuchi was probably above Lucifer, and it was an Avatar of YHVH (it even pays homage to the Megami Tensei II YHVH design)) and was created to defeat YHVH for the last time after time collapsed on itself. Plus the Masakados Magatama makes him immune to all attacks Except Almighty (Earth and Gun too if you factor in the DDS games, but that fight isn't Canon) (Plus, removing gameplay limitations of 8 skills per person, he should have countless techniques ranging from every element, type, support, and recovery)



Abel has the full abilities of all Bel demons, and without the skill limit, he should have the same large range of techniques, based on his skill crack ability. 



> Abel is just the diluted reincarnation of the fist Martyr who obtained the powers of the god who was worshiped as God until YHVH defeated him and split his powers up. I fail to see how all the Bel demons combined again would be able to defeat YHVH when He beat them down before. Granted, the Bel demons were being worshiped more, but in the present day the God of Abraham has FAR more worshipers due to the larger population that in the B.C. times. Lucifer wasn't even interested in the War of Bel. If Abel had such potential, Lucifer would have tried to manipulate Abel like Loki and Nayoa into going against YHVH



Of course, Lucifer lost to Abel before he attained the powers of Bel. You know, his major power up. As for the manipulation, there was no need. Lucifer already thought he was going for the Throne of Bel to oppose God, why would Lucifer need to manipulate him?



> Using actual gameplay, I can solo Lucifer with only the Demifiend on Hard mode. With 4 level 99 protagonists and the strongest demons, Abel and the others can be wiped out by Megalodyne if you don't defeat Lucifer fast enough. Abel would only be able to use almighty moves to harm the Demifiend (provided The Demifiend has Physical Repel, as Abel could have Pierce) that being Holy Dance and Megalodoan. Those do not cause enough damage to any enemy who is near or above their level to one shot or even to a quarter damage, especially to a full strength Demi-fiend. Moreover, applying the same logic, a Focus+Pierce+Fruikekel combo cannot be blocked at all, as no enemy can repel Almighty attacks and only 3 enemies I know can resist/Nullify Almighty (Noah after a Phase Shift, Lucifer, and Huang Long when defending. I don't recall if Satan can)



If you're going to take into account gameplay mechanics, then the Demi-Fiend can't injure Abel without Devil's Fuge because he has the power of Beldr 

So Abel would have the game mechanics advantage.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 12, 2010)

Kamen Rider Ryoma said:


> Bullshit. YHWH is the strongest being in Shin Megami Tensei.
> 
> 
> And Aleph didn't kill YHWH. He beat him. Then YHWH cursed Aleph for all of eternity. Cue see Hijiri, there is your Aleph.


Aleph did kill YHWH, the curse were his last words,


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## ryne11 (Jul 12, 2010)

Do you see why I rarely post in this section? I think I make perfect sense when in reality I am talking out of my ass 



Azure Flame Kite said:


> If you're going to take into account gameplay mechanics, then the Demi-Fiend can't injure Abel without Devil's Fuge because he has the power of Beldr
> 
> So Abel would have the game mechanics advantage.


 I forgetted 



Kamen Rider Ryoma said:


> Bullshit. YHWH is the strongest being in Shin Megami Tensei.
> 
> 
> And Aleph didn't kill YHWH. He beat him. Then YHWH cursed Aleph for all of eternity. Cue see Hijiri, there is your Aleph.



YHVH was killed, but explained that he will be resurected again and again so long as people pray for him, just like all demons. Lucifer explained this in the GBA cutscenes


			
				Lucifer said:
			
		

> I had originally thought that we were superior to you, I am starting to realize that may have been a mistaken assumption on my part. We and you are just...different, that's all. The more I think about it, the more that seems to be the case... It was definitely that way before, but you're the main players in this world. The world may be ours but you are the ones at its core. Are we nothing but supporting characters? Hmm....
> 
> Everything has a back and a front. This is true for all matters. Y*ou may have thought that you killed YHVH, but on a larger scale, that is just for an instant, a mere blink of an eye. Don't get me wrong, you definitely did kill him, but one could also say that it's impossible to kill him as well. This is the flow of time, the front and the back.*
> 
> ...



Hence why Lucifer had the Demifiend fight Kagatsuchi and destroy time itself when he killed Kagatsuchi. Time dead can enable the True death of YHVH


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## Kamen Rider Ryoma (Jul 12, 2010)

basch71 said:


> Aleph did kill YHWH, the curse were his last words,


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jul 12, 2010)

> See the text ryne quoted. Killed but not really dead. Existing forever...etc. etc. I don't count that as killing. That's just beaten. Killing is something final.


 
Actually it's more like he's so powerful that he can resurrect later on. 
That and there's his many avatars.



> "_-Astral Void-_
> _Voice:Who is it!?_
> _Who dares to kill Satan?_
> _Come to me and show thyselves!!_
> ...


 
Aleph killing God is considered the Ultimate Sin. Here's the full quote.



> _-After the battle-_
> _O accursed one! Thou hath finally commited the ultimate sin in destroying thy creator! _
> _In slayinh me, the lord of all creation, thou hath lost everything._
> _No longer dost thou have anyone to cling to, nor to when in need._
> ...


 
Kinda like Nyx in Persona 3, for as long people exist, he will return.



> Errr... no. That has nothing to do with YHWH's true death or anything.
> 
> A Kagutsuchi is just a fraction of YHWH's power. Conceptions are happening throughout the multiverse every second.
> 
> Hitoshura destroying a single Kagutsuchi is just something minor. It had nothing to do with killing time or anything. I don't know how you figured that.


 
Kagetsuchi isn't even close to Lucifer in power. Considering Lucifer been at war with YHWH for ages.


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## ryne11 (Jul 12, 2010)

Kamen Rider Ryoma said:


> Errr... no. That has nothing to do with YHWH's true death or anything.
> 
> A Kagutsuchi is just a fraction of YHWH's power. Conceptions are happening throughout the multiverse every second.
> 
> Hitoshura destroying a single Kagutsuchi is just something minor. It had nothing to do with killing time or anything. I don't know how you figured that.



It made more sense in my head then after I typed it out. I forgot about the whole multiverse thing too


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