# Who's the Strongest Hanzo Can Beat



## Turrin (Apr 6, 2015)

This is a question that has always popped up and opinions differ greatly on it, due to Hanzo getting little screen time, but now that the manga is over I thought it would be fun to take another crack at it. To try and bring context to this, I went and retranslated the main statements that get brought into question when discussing Hanzo's strength.

Jiraiya's Dialog:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Jiriaya, "I don't believe it"

Jiriaya, "You must be mistaken, no matter how great Pain's strength is it's not exceeding his"

Jiriaya, "That man is known by every person in the Ninja World, Amegakure's Hanzo of the Salamander"

Jiriaya, "If that's the case by what means was Hanzo? " 

Jiriaya, "What is Pain's ability?"

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Jiriaya, "I can't believe...by merely one person, that Hanzo"

Amegakure-Fodder, "Kuku...Well it took a god to do it after all"




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Pain's Statement From the Flashback:

*Spoiler*: __ 




Pain, "and now you can't even understand why I defeated you as you are now [in comparison to before]. "




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About Hanzo's Poison Breath:


*Spoiler*: __ 



"There are many times i've done so...but there's a risk"

"The one role of the mask...is protection from poison"

Supposing the poison sack were to be cut in battle... in that case outside the body would flow raw poisonous fluid.... gas that can be breathed in would form from the vaporization of the poisonous liquid"

"That would result in immobilization even with my strong poison resistance"

"I wouldn't die, but it would give birth to a chink in my armor [weak-point]"

"All the more when the enemy is capable like you" - _Note Hanzo is being respectful here_

"I can't create such a chink in my armor [weak-point]"




----

Anyway I'd like to discuss a few scenario's

Secnario 1:

Rusty-Hanzo
Knowledge: Manga
Location: Forest where Mifune and Hanzo fought
Distance: 20m

Scenario 2:

Prime-Hanzo
Knowledge: Manga
Location: Forest where Mifune and Hanzo fought
Distance: 20m

Whose the strongest you think he can beat. And to be clear discussion based on hype and portrayal is more than okay. Let me know if there are any statements key to this that I missed and need clearer translation and i'll try to do so.


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## Rocky (Apr 6, 2015)

When you deal with super hax like gigantic clouds of poison, the list of people one "could" defeat is rather large. I guess Hashirama if the Hokage opts not to spawn a forest at the bell.

If we take J-man statements as evidence that the Sannin are inferior in strength, then the strongest Hanzo could consistently defeat would probably be Jiraiya himself (Orochimaru & Tsunade match up better) or somebody like Pain Arc Naruto.

I'm not really sure about Rusty Hanzo.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If we take J-man statements as evidence that the Sannin are inferior in strength, then the strongest Hanzo could consistently defeat would probably be Jiraiya himself (Orochimaru & Tsunade match up better) or somebody like Pain Arc Naruto.


Without a doubt Jiraiya believes Hanzo is stronger than the Sannin, given the language he uses [Though that was before Edo-Tensei and Byakugo Retcons]. The question is more does Nagato considering Hanzo stronger than himself, as his statement does lean that way.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 6, 2015)

I don't know. Is Prime Hanzo the same one that struggled against Young Mifune?


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I don't know. Is Prime Hanzo the same one that struggled against Young Mifune?


Who knows if it's the same Hanzo, but I don't see much evidence that he struggled with Mifune.

Though I imagine the manga wants us to believe Prime-Hanzo is the one the solo'd the Sannin, as Jiraiya thinks back to that Hanzo when talking about his power.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Who knows if it's the same Hanzo, but I don't see much evidence that he struggled with Mifune.
> 
> Though I imagine the manga wants us to believe Prime-Hanzo is the one the solo'd the Sannin, as Jiraiya thinks back to that Hanzo when talking about his power.



Second panel

 Though to have a better idea of how I would determine Hanzo's strength, what is Rusty-Hanzo? Is that the same one that battled War Arc Mifune?


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## Bonly (Apr 6, 2015)

I'd take a shot in the dark and think he'd have a decent shot at beating Kisame


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Second panel


Maybe, i'm missing something, but I don't see what your getting at with that page.



> Though to have a better idea of how I would determine Hanzo's strength, what is Rusty-Hanzo? Is that the same one that battled War Arc Mifune?


Yeah, Rusty-Hanzo is the one who faced Mifune in the war, less Edo perks.


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## Rocky (Apr 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The question is more does Nagato considering Hanzo stronger than himself, as his statement does lean that way.



Given the respective portrayal of the the two, it seems to be a stretch to hold Hanzo above Pain. Maybe I feel that way due to Hanzo's lack of panel time. Idk.

Featwise, it isn't a contest. Plus, what does Hanzo have on the Rinnegan?


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Given the respective portrayal of the the two, it seems to be a stretch to hold Hanzo above Pain. Maybe I feel that way due to Hanzo's lack of panel time. Idk.
> 
> Featwise, it isn't a contest. Plus, what does Hanzo have on the Rinnegan?


In-fairness, with my Hanzo-fandom aside, I got the impression when translating that there were two ideas at play. Hanzo skills dulled, but also he didn't improve; or to use Mifune's language Hanzo both neglected to keep his blade from rusting and sharpen his blade. Rusting standing for him getting weaker and sharpening standing from improving. Basically what i'm saying is I think Nagato probably meant if Hanzo kept his beliefs and continued to get stronger he would never have beaten him, not that Prime-Hanzo was already stronger than him. Though we'll never know for sure due to the ambiguous nature of Nagato's statement and than there is the fact that Jiraiya could have beaten Pain with the right conditions so Prime-Hanzo doing so isn't totally outside the realm of reality, but I agree that it's hard to imagine anyone w/o that Kaguya connection being stronger than Nagato, even if Hanzo kept improving, before reaching the ceiling of age.

With that said Jiraiya clearly believed Prime-Hanzo was stronger than anyone alive, so much so that he thought there was no way Akatsuki-Leader could be stronger than Prime-Hanzo, despite acknowledging that there were people in Akatsuki stronger than Orochimaru. Additionally I think defeating all three Sannin as easily as Hanzo was implied to have done so, is one of the best feats in the manga among Shinobi that don't have that Kaguya-connection, despite them being less skilled. Kishi also really need to tailor the situation perfectly to allow even Rusty-Hanzo to be "defeated" [quotes because he offed himself]. So I still think Prime-Hanzo is suppose to be seen as perhaps one of the strongest shinobi that doesn't have some connection to Kaguya or a Bijuu, much like Prime-Hiruzen. And even Rusty-Hanzo is a much bigger bitch for characters to deal with than his fight with Mifune indicates.


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## Trojan (Apr 6, 2015)

Hanzo did not really "defeat" them tho. They were holding their own against him.


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## Turrin (Apr 6, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Hanzo did not really "defeat" them tho. They were holding their own against him.


Where do you get holding their own from? They were beat the fuck out off and exhausted as hell, while Hanzo showed no signs of fatigue or damage of any kind. Than Hanzo said he'd let them live, clearly implying he could kill them if he wished. Than Jiriaya started to speak up and Tsunade was like STFU before you get us killed, also implying that Hanzo could have easily killed them. 

They did well to just to survive and were rewarded with a title for it, but Hanzo could have killed them that day and they were no real match for him.


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> With that said Jiraiya clearly believed Prime-Hanzo was stronger than anyone alive, so much so that he thought there was no way Akatsuki-Leader could be stronger than Prime-Hanzo, despite acknowledging that there were people in Akatsuki stronger than Orochimaru. Additionally I think defeating all three Sannin as easily as Hanzo was implied to have done so, is one of the best feats in the manga among Shinobi that don't have that Kaguya-connection, despite them being less skilled. Kishi also really need to tailor the situation perfectly to allow even Rusty-Hanzo to be "defeated" [quotes because he offed himself]. So I still think Prime-Hanzo is suppose to be seen as perhaps one of the strongest shinobi that doesn't have some connection to Kaguya or a Bijuu, much like Prime-Hiruzen. And even Rusty-Hanzo is a much bigger bitch for characters to deal with than his fight with Mifune indicates.



I would say that the Sannin-soloing Hanzo belongs next to other top shinobi without powerful bloodline abilities like Minato and Hiruzen. IIRC, Jiraiya also said that the 4th Hokage had power that couldn't be surpassed, so Hanzo could also be placed on that level.

It's difficult to gauge the soloing of the Sannin because we were unsure of how powerful they were back then. Since they were heralded as being prodigies, it's safe to assume that they were not push overs, but did Jiraiya have access to Sage Mode? Tsunade to Byakugo? Orochimaru to Edo Tensei or the Hydra technique? 

It's hard to say who the most powerful Hanzo could beat is just based on him beating the younger Sannin, because we don't know how Obito, Minato, Young Hiruzen, Itachi, or similar tiered characters would fair against those versions of the characters. The hype can only place Hanzo above Part II Jiraiya, but I believe the aforementioned characters are also above Jiraiya, so...


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I would say that the Sannin-soloing Hanzo belongs next to other top shinobi without powerful bloodline abilities like Minato and Hiruzen. IIRC, _Jiraiya also said that the 4th Hokage had power that couldn't be surpassed_, so Hanzo could also be planed on that level.
> .


Where did Jiraiya say that? The only statement i'm aware of is the one where Jiraiya speaks towards Minato's having the greatest talent. In the end I don't think Minato was really that much stronger than Jiraiya, though he had definite edge and i'm of course referring to Minato pre-Kyuubi.



> It's difficult to gauge the soloing of the Sannin because we were unsure of how powerful they were back then. Since they were heralded as being prodigies, it's safe to assume that they were not push overs, but did Jiraiya have access to Sage Mode? Tsunade to Byakugo? Orochimaru to Edo Tensei or the Hydra technique?


Jiraiya is in Base in the flashback. Tsunade did not learn Sousou Saisei until she left the village, let alone the retecon Byakugo. Orochimaru also have Edo-Tensei is unlikely considering Hiruzen was surprised when he showed the skill. I doubt he experimented on himself enough to have Yamata no Orochi at that point ether.

With that said, it was still 3v1 and Hanzo didn't appeared to Low or at most Mid diff them. Even w/o their lets say Ougi's the Sannin would still beat most characters in the series 3v1; and they became legends shortly after facing Hanzo. The weakest character spoken off with such legendary status is Part I-Kakashi, and 3 Part I-Kakashi's are nothing to fuck with, let alone Low-Mid diff.



> It's hard to say who the most powerful Hanzo could beat is just based on him beating the younger Sannin, because we don't know how Obito, Minato, Young Hiruzen, Itachi, or similar tiered characters would fair against those versions of the characters. The hype can only place Hanzo above Part II Jiraiya, but I believe the aforementioned characters are also above Jiraiya, so...


It places him more than above Jiriaya given the language used and Jiriaya's awareness of individuals stronger than Orochimaru in Akatsuki. 

Itachi odds are very low imo, as I really don't think Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya, not to open that can of worms, but I recently went back and read the raw text of Kisame and Itachi's dialog and it's pretty explicit in the fact that Itachi would be lucky if he forced a draw with Jiriaya, let alone won. And to this day I still see nothing invalidating that comparison, other than wishful thinking on the part of fan-boys, while on the other hand with more abilities of Jiriaya revealed like Frog Katas, and the effectiveness of Sennin Modo skills as well as Sound Jutsu against MS, it just seems more likely to be the truth. Anyway bottom line is whether someone wants to believe Itachi is stronger, I don't think anything in the series supports the gap being large enough where Jiraiya would use the type of language he used to describe Hanzo to describe Itachi. Fuck Jiriaya was most likely aware of most of Itachi's and the Mangekyo-Sharingan's abilities at the time and he still believed no on could compare to Hanzo.

Obito is tricky because Kamui-spam is so hax where unless someone has a suitable ability to handle it Obito is a really difficult SOB to deal with, as shown by Kakashi, Naruto, B, and Gai still needing to rely on Kakashi's Kamui to counter Obito's. Though Hanzo's poison does seem quite suitable to me as effective means of dealing with Obito, at least in a no knowledge or partial knowledge scenario.

Prime-Hiruzen and Minato seems like the most likely to be stronger, but Jiriaya's language still gives me pause there as i'm not sure he'd be so gun hoe that no single individual could defeat Hanzo, if he knew one intimately that could. Now granted he could have meant no living individual, but he [and Kishi] certainly don't qualify the statement as such for the readers, and instead choose to leave it as a more blanket statement of disbelief.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Maybe, i'm missing something, but I don't see what your getting at with that page.
> 
> 
> Yeah, Rusty-Hanzo is the one who faced Mifune in the war, less Edo perks.



 Hanzo gains a significant advantage against Young Mifune, however, he admitted that an opponent of Mifune's caliber would've been powerful enough to create an opening by inflicting a wound at Hanzo's Venom Sac, so Hanzo decided to keep the mask on.

 It would seem that Young Mifune was rather close to Hanzo's level considering Hanzo only won due to Salamander Poison.


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Where did Jiraiya say that? The only statement i'm aware of is the one where Jiraiya speaks towards Minato's having the greatest talent. In the end I don't think Minato was really that much stronger than Jiraiya, though he had definite edge and i'm of course referring to Minato pre-Kyuubi.



Somewhere in Part I. I believe it was something along the lines of "yada yada 4th Hokage, nobody can surpass him." 

Even without that statement, what Minato accomplished impressed me more than what Jiraiya did. Minato's handling of Obito & A, whom I believe to be around Sannin level (MS Obito a bit above, A a bit below), is a major reason why I hold Yondaime Hokage above the prodigal three, individually. That's not to say they couldn't take Minato down given the right circumstances; even Pain admitted that Jiraiya had a chance to win their fight given more knowledge.



> With that said, it was still 3v1 and Hanzo didn't appeared to Low or at most Mid diff them. Even w/o their lets say Ougi's the Sannin would still beat most characters in the series 3v1; and they became legends shortly after facing Hanzo. The weakest character spoken off with such legendary status is Part I-Kakashi, and 3 Part I-Kakashi's are nothing to fuck with, let alone Low-Mid diff.



All I was saying was that Hanzo wasn't at the level where he'd be beating all of the Sannin as we know them in Part II (even prior to Orochimaru's Zetsu body). I'm not claiming the Sannin to be regular Jounin-tier dudes, thus the line:

*"Since they were heralded as being prodigies, it's safe to assume that they were not push overs..."*



> Prime-Hiruzen and Minato seems like the most likely to be stronger, but Jiriaya's language still gives me pause there as i'm not sure he'd be so gun hoe that no single individual could defeat Hanzo, if he knew one intimately that could. Now granted he could have meant no living individual, but he [and Kishi] certainly don't qualify the statement as such for the readers, and instead choose to leave it as a more blanket statement of disbelief.



Regarding Obito & Itachi, sure.

Regarding this, If we're to assume Jiraiya was making a "blanket statement" about Hanzo's power, then should it not be taken as hyperbole? When a character says so and so "cannot be surpassed," it's more respect than fact, imo. I mean, Jiraiya knew of the Rikudo Sennin, and likely knew of guys like Hashirama & Madara (being from Konoha), so why would we include dead guys like Hiruzen & Minato yet omit Hashirama & Hagoromo?

Personally, I believe Jiraiya was just surprised that there was another man in existence (Pain)  that had that "legendary Hokage" type of might. Taking the hype at face value would give us a Hanzo somewhere around Nagato, which - though in the realm of _possibility_ - isn't what seems the most likely given his treatment in the manga.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 7, 2015)

There is no "prime/rusty" Hanzo; Hanzo is as we saw him. What rusted were his convictions and he redeemed himself through seppuku to stop his own Edo Tensei.

He was overrated by Jiraiya. Might've been a top dog at one point in his lifetime, but there are bigger fish throughout the history of his world (before, after, and during his lifetime).

Who he can beat depends largely on circumstance. Although I wouldn't sell him this high in a fair fight, he's pretty well built to kill the 3rd and 4th Raikage, who are chiefly limited to Raiton Nin-Taijutsu with little else they can use--even if it's only a draw because they blitzed Hanzo and ruptured his venom sack with no awareness of it. Muu, Gengetsu, and Rasa are also likely potential victims of poisoning if they don't have proper intel. Kisame too, and Hanzo has the added benefit of being adept at marine combat (although we have only passing nonspecific hype, no feats). But these guys would all floor Hanzo if they knew what he was made of--that's the rub. He might have a shot against Kisame in a fair fight, but not a good one.


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> There is no "prime/rusty" Hanzo; Hanzo is as we saw him. What rusted were his convictions and he redeemed himself through seppuku to stop his own Edo Tensei. He was overrated by Jiraiya.



Nah. Mifune has no business even competing with all three of the Sannin at once. The fact that Hanzo dispatched the three of them, casually at that, yet failed to impress against the lone Samurai indicates a rather large decline in ability.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nah. Mifune has no business even competing with all three of the Sannin at once. The fact that Hanzo dispatched the three of them, casually at that, yet failed to impress against the lone Samurai indicates a rather large decline in ability.



Or the Sannin were just a lot weaker 20-30 years ago. Which is provable in Orochimaru's case and demonstrably probable in the cases of the other two.


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Or the Sannin were just a lot weaker 20-30 years ago. Which is provable in Orochimaru's case and demonstrably probable in the cases of the other two.



Yes, they were indeed weaker. Being weaker than they were in Part II doesn't automatically mean that they were weak enough to where Mifune could stomp all three at once. 

Mifune can't even really compete with any of the Sannin individually when they're older.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nah. Mifune has no business even competing with all three of the Sannin at once. The fact that Hanzo dispatched the three of them, casually at that, yet failed to impress against the lone Samurai indicates a rather large decline in ability.



 Well, Mifune does look fairly young which can place Hanzo's fight at around the 2nd Shinobi War.

 We know Mifune is 65 years old during the War Arc. Judging by Mifune's appearance, all that could have happened 30 years ago which would place Hanzo at his Prime. Even then, it was never implied Hanzo regressed. If that were the case, Nagato himself would've mentioned it when he assassinated him.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 7, 2015)

Kisame for prime Hanzo.

Hanzo is the fastest man in the watter and he has his poison. He also has better kenjutsu skills.


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## Icegaze (Apr 7, 2015)

hanzo isnt all that much ill say maybe the likes of kakashi without MS


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> hanzo isnt all that much ill say maybe the likes of kakashi without MS



Because Kakashi without MS isn't that much? 

Also he can defeat Kisame for sure, maybe even in his rusty form.


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## Mercurial (Apr 7, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Because Kakashi without MS isn't that much?
> 
> Also he can defeat Kisame for sure, maybe even in his rusty form.



Yeah, he isn't that much. Everyone was a talented genius who at 12 yrs, before receiving the Sharingan, was made jonin, created Chidori, could use Rasengan and was able to fight on par with other villages' seasoned jonin. Everyone can counter every move from Itachi, even defending his weaker comrades, having Itachi to use the Mangekyo to win the fight without prolonging it, when being definitely weaker than when he fended off Kakuzu and Hidan together, avoiding their combo attacks and protecting weaker comrades, than when he tricked and cornered Pain's strongest Path plus the second strongest Path coming an inch to defeat both not once but twice, than when he kept up with Gated Gai in multiple instances, counterblitzing Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 with Raikiri, cutting their chakra arms like butter, and fending of them for an extended time, than when he teached Obito an old style lesson about ninja fighting skills, and so on. Everyone is the arguably smarter fighter in the series, a speedster that has Sharingan precognition, high level taijutsu, clone feints who tricked some of the strongest characters, unblockable Raiton enhanced thrusts and slashes, a ninja who is versed in every area of fighting, being it close range, mid range or long range, being it ninjutsu, taijutsu or genjutsu, able to have full mastery of Raiton, high level mastery of Suiton and Doton, and decent skill with all the remaining elements. Yes, without Mangekyo, Kakashi isn't too much... also, I love how just because Kakashi's Mangekyo is too overpowered, there is "Kakashi without Mangekyo" but no one ever talks about other people without their power modes or trump card, when without them most of them are weaker, or a lot weaker, than Kakashi without his.

On topic, Kisame negs Hanzo with Daikodan no Jutsu or Suiton Senshokuko. It's arguable about Dai Bakusoi Shoha plus Suiro Sameodori and Samehada fusion. Anyway Kisame is far above Hanzo. Pain just said that Hanzo abandoned his ideals, hence he grew weaker, that doesn't mean that if he didn't he wouldn't have been able to defeat him. Also Jiraiya's words are an hyperbole, and he is clearly impressed from the image of Hanzo that he had from his young days.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 7, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Yeah, he isn't that much. Everyone was a talented genius who at 12 yrs, before receiving the Sharingan, was made jonin, created Chidori, could use Rasengan and was able to fight on par with other villages' seasoned jonin. Everyone can counter every move from Itachi, even defending his weaker comrades, having Itachi to use the Mangekyo to win the fight without prolonging it, when being definitely weaker than when he fended off Kakuzu and Hidan together, avoiding their combo attacks and protecting weaker comrades, than when he tricked and cornered Pain's strongest Path plus the second strongest Path coming an inch to defeat both not once but twice, than when he kept up with Gated Gai in multiple instances, counterblitzing Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 with Raikiri, cutting their chakra arms like butter, and fending of them for an extended time, than when he teached Obito an old style lesson about ninja fighting skills, and so on. Everyone is the arguably smarter fighter in the series, a speedster that has Sharingan precognition, high level taijutsu, clone feints who tricked some of the strongest characters, unblockable Raiton enhanced thrusts and slashes, a ninja who is versed in every area of fighting, being it close range, mid range or long range, being it ninjutsu, taijutsu or genjutsu, able to have full mastery of Raiton, high level mastery of Suiton and Doton, and decent skill with all the remaining elements. Yes, without Mangekyo, Kakashi isn't too much... also, I love how just because Kakashi's Mangekyo is too overpowered, there is "Kakashi without Mangekyo" but no one ever talks about other people without their power modes or trump card, when without them most of them are weaker, or a lot weaker, than Kakashi without his.
> 
> On topic, Kisame negs Hanzo with Daikodan no Jutsu or Suiton Senshokuko. It's arguable about Dai Bakusoi Shoha plus Suiro Sameodori and Samehada fusion. Anyway Kisame is far above Hanzo. Pain just said that Hanzo abandoned his ideals, hence he grew weaker, that doesn't mean that if he didn't he wouldn't have been able to defeat him. Also Jiraiya's words are an hyperbole, and he is clearly impressed from the image of Hanzo that he had from his young days.



You know what irony is?

Btw poison also works inside the watter...

And Hanzo is the fastest man in the watter.


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## Icegaze (Apr 7, 2015)

Lol Kakashi without kamui is low kage level that's not that much . Regardless of what the fans say 
Same way Gai in base is just about the same level 
However I did speak out of turn hanzo won't even beat Kakashi 
Maybe the likes of asuma is the best he can do 

 Kisame neg diffs hanzo while hoping on one leg


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol Kakashi without kamui is low kage level that's not that much . Regardless of what the fans say
> Same way Gai in base is just about the same level
> However I did speak out of turn hanzo won't even beat Kakashi
> Maybe the likes of asuma is the best he can do
> ...



As always your arguments are brilliant and irrefutables.

Hanzo is faste than Kisame, he has better kenjutsu and his poison works inside Kisame's water dome.

Kakashi's base stats are really high even without his sharingan, and his raiton are more than enough for him to be a mid kage, as seen in Kakashi hidden.


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## Icegaze (Apr 7, 2015)

^poster above 
feats that make hanzo faster than kisame. please show them 
i guess hanzo speed allows him to deal with daikodan. oh wait it doesnt. 
my arguments are arguments urs however. not sure if troll  maybe it is 
hanzo has better kenjutsu 
thats why he lost to mifune right. i take it mifune will outdo kisame in kenjutsu.  i love your arguments. brightens my day when i read ur posts. 
kakashi base stats are high without sharingan. how do u know this? u seen him fight without it? oh wait u really havent. when he did he got hit by a fodder rock nin when he was 13. beyond that not been shown.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ^poster above
> feats that make hanzo faster than kisame. please show them
> i guess hanzo speed allows him to deal with daikodan. oh wait it doesnt.
> my arguments are arguments urs however. not sure if troll  maybe it is
> ...



3rd Databook about Hanzou:
Hanzō's speed was said to be unsurpassed in water.

In Kenjutsu:
Sasuke>Mifune>Hanzou>lot of characters>Kisame

Kenjutsu=/=overall power

Poison work inside the water, Kisame's suiton weren't able to kill Ten Ten by themself, they only help Kisame against characters that aren't able to manoeuvre inside the water, Hanzo is faster than Kisame inside the water and his poison works inside the water...  

Kakashi's speed didn't get any power up because of the sharingan, infact Kakashi was slower as part of his chakra was drained by the sharingan.
Kakashi's strength, durability and any other stat that depends on the chakra amount, Kakashi has It higher without the sharingan.

Have you read Kakashi hidden? No, then STFU.


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## Icegaze (Apr 7, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> 3rd Databook about Hanzou:
> Hanzō's speed was said to be unsurpassed in water.
> 
> In Kenjutsu:
> ...



awww cute clown making me laugh. first off this laughable statement of yours where are you getting it from? Sasuke>Mifune>Hanzou>lot of characters>Kisame any proof of this?

yes poison works inside water. what does that have to do with daikodan fucking over hanzo with no feats?

kisame never attacked 1010 nice try troll man nice try 

hanzo was the fastest of his time. same for tobirama doesnt mean they still hold that title. any feats of hanzo under water?

kakashi speed reduced due to sharingan  sounds like your new here so ill forgive you
if anything kishi the author has already clearly stated sharingan allows him to fight at greater speeds. 

have you read the manga no then STFHU #newbie

more seriously though where can i read kakashi hidden?


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Hanzo gains a significant advantage against Young Mifune, however, he admitted that an opponent of Mifune's caliber would've been powerful enough to create an opening by inflicting a wound at Hanzo's Venom Sac, so Hanzo decided to keep the mask on..


Nah, that's not what he said. It's the opening he couldn't give Mifune, not that Mifune would be necessarily capable of rupturing the venom-sack. Rather he just said it's an unnecessary risk to take. He didn't need to remove his mask to defeat Mifune, so why take risk of Mifune or someone else getting a lucky blow and rupturing the venom-sack is the sentiment of Hanzo's dialog. He's also being respectful to Mifune, like he was to the Sannin when giving them a title. 



> It's hard to say who the most powerful Hanzo could beat is just based on him beating the younger Sannin, because we don't know how Obito, Minato, Young Hiruzen, Itachi, or similar tiered characters would fair against those versions of the characters


Actually the dialog indicates the exact opposite. Hanzo was powerful enough to put Mifune down w/o needing to take any risks or needing to use his poison-breath. He also didn't need poison, as he cut through Mifune's blade and injured him. From that point even if Mifune wasn't poisoned, Hanzo could have easily dispatched him. The fact that his weapon was poisoned only made it easier.



Rocky said:


> Somewhere in Part I. I believe it was something along the lines of "yada yada 4th Hokage, nobody can surpass him."


I don't think that exists man. There was a statement where Jiriaya said it's not easy to compare anyone to the Fourth, as he was a once in a decade genius, but again that speaks to talent not power.



> Even without that statement, what Minato accomplished impressed me more than what Jiraiya did. Minato's handling of Obito & A, whom I believe to be around Sannin level (MS Obito a bit above, A a bit below), is a major reason why I hold Yondaime Hokage above the prodigal three, individually. That's not to say they couldn't take Minato down given the right circumstances; even Pain admitted that Jiraiya had a chance to win their fight given more knowledge.


Ei is one the same "level" as Jiriaya, but so is Minato. It's just that Minato and Jiraiya are overall better shinobi than Ei. 

Obito like I said before is hard to rate, because of his hax ability. For example I doubt Minato would handle himself as well as Obito against Kakashi, B, Gai, and Naruto But  Minato defeated him because he had the right skills to counter Kamui. So how exactly do we quantify that. Is Obito > Minato, and Minato is just a poor match up, that could make some sense, but I think Kishi wanted the take away to be that Minato was better than Obito. So I just don't know.



> All I was saying was that Hanzo wasn't at the level where he'd be beating all of the Sannin as we know them in Part II (even prior to Orochimaru's Zetsu body). I'm not claiming the Sannin to be regular Jounin-tier dudes, thus the line:


I agree with you there. If he could solo Part II Sannin he'd be Juubi Jin level, considering how overpowered Byakugo and Edo-Tensei became, which realistically he is not.



> Regarding this, If we're to assume Jiraiya was making a "blanket statement" about Hanzo's power, then should it not be taken as hyperbole? When a character says so and so "cannot be surpassed," it's more respect than fact, imo. I mean, Jiraiya knew of the Rikudo Sennin, and likely knew of guys like Hashirama & Madara (being from Konoha), so why would we include dead guys like Hiruzen & Minato yet omit Hashirama & Hagoromo


There's a fundamental difference between those two groups. Minato and Hiruzen are people Jiraiya knew on a personal level, that existed in recent history. Characters like Hashirama, Madara, and Hagoromo were on the other hand active before Jiraiya was born and their abilities had become the things of myths and fairytales. Whether Jiriaya put more stock into those tales than the average person, really doesn't give Jiriaya any means to confirm that the great power of these people really existed. On-top of that there had never been any individual since them throughout Jiriaya's long life that display powers even remotely close to theirs, so much so that when Jiriaya even brings up the idea that perhaps someone could control the Demon-Fox the Toad Scroll laughs in his face about how ridiculous that notion is.

So it's not really surprising to me that Jiriaya would not account for these myths and legends when reacting to the news of Hanzo's defeat. However it would be surprising that he'd be so shocked at Hanzo defeat if their existed in recent history two individuals he knew personally who could indeed defeat him. With that said after Jiriaya does get some time to think, in the very next chapter he does turn to these myths and legends to potentially explain Akatsuki's power; such as theorizing on Uchiha Madara possibly being involved. So it seems like initially he thought of the none mythical shinobi, and than went to the mythical after nothing else made sense.



> Personally, I believe Jiraiya was just surprised that there was another man in existence (Pain) that had that "legendary Hokage" type of might. Taking the hype at face value would give us a Hanzo somewhere around Nagato, which - though in the realm of possibility - isn't what seems the most likely given his treatment in the manga.


I wouldn't place someone who is a bit stronger than Minato and Hiruzen, as on Nagato's "level", rather I think it would just give us someone who is between the two. 




Nikushimi said:


> There is no "prime/rusty" Hanzo; Hanzo is as we saw him. What rusted were his convictions and he redeemed himself through seppuku to stop his own Edo Tensei.


The raw text clearly says his skill declined, not just a loss of beliefs. 

技 = skill
mess up ones chakra





> He was overrated by Jiraiya. Might've been a top dog at one point in his lifetime, but there are bigger fish throughout the history of his world (before, after, and during his lifetime).


I don't see how Jiraiya could be mistaken about Prime-Hanzo's strength, he isn't exactly new to the Job of Shinobi. And I see no point to Kishi having Jiriaya make an erroneous statement


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## Icegaze (Apr 7, 2015)

i didnt know we were using hype in this thread in that case i guess strongest he could beat is jiriaya. or somewhere around that level 
hype is something kishi always failed to deliver on. utterly 

on what was shown honestly asuma would beat hanzo


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2015)

f





Icegaze said:


> Kisame neg diffs hanzo while hoping on one leg


Ugh...no. Rusty-Hanzo has a good chance of beating Kisame and by feats no less. 

Mifune was able to keep up with Sasuke. Sasuke himself is faster than Kisame w/ a 4.5 in speed [and Sharingan Precog] vs Kisame's 4 in speed. I'll grant Kisame that he's probably more skilled at Kenjutsu than Sasuke, but not more skilled than the greatest Samurai, whose entire fighting style and life is bent on Kenjutsu mastery. Rusty-Hanzo kept up with Mifune in CQC for over 5min, so he's not loosing out to Kisame in speed or technical skill; in-fact he is likely to be better than Kisame in these areas. 

Kisame of course isn't all about Taijutsu capabilities in CQC, he also has his chakra absorption abilities curtsey of Samehada, but that isn't an issue against someone like Hanzo whose CQC is based on physical attacks and poisons. In-fact Hanzo goto fightings style is thee most effective way to handle Kisame in CQC as it renders his chakra absorption useless. 

Kisame on the other hand needs to fight a perfect match and even w/o knowledge prevent himself from being scratched even a single time or it's over for him. And if he is indeed capable of repelling all of Hanzo's attacks w/o taking a scratch, than this would only force Hanzo's hand and prompt him to remove his mask and use poison breath against Kisame. Kisame w/o knowledge has no way of avoiding poison breath in CQC. Overall Rusty-Hanzo is much more dangerous in CQC to Kisame, than visa versa. 

With CQC aside, which is Kisame's preferred way to start a match, Hanzo is quite adept at dealing with Kisame's suitons. He has Ibusei to use doton and allow him to escape underground to survive Kisame's large AOE Suitons. And if Kisame floods the battlefield this is not much of an issue for Hanzo as he can breath underwater due to his mask and at least at one point was faster than Kisame underwater; perhaps rusty that is no longer the case but he should still be able to put up a much better fight than most and prevent himself from being instantly raped by Kisamehada. And if Kisaemahda tries to attack Hanzo in CQC to absorb his chakra like he did against B, he is will leave himself open to being scratched and poisoned.

On the other hand Ibusei's Gas-Cloud is a bitch for Kisame to have to deal with. It's not Ninjutsu technique it's just raw poison Ibusei secrets, so Samehada (or Kisamehada) won't be able to sense the difference between it and smoke screen, and w/o prior knowledge he is likely to breath in the gas the same way the ambush squad did and that's an easy GG for Hanzo right there. Even if the battlefield is covered in Kisame's Giant water prison by the time Ibusei comes out. Ibusei being an aquatic salamander is quite adept at navigating the waters and can simply release his poison into the water itself, which would also OKO Kisame. 

That's not to say Kisame can't beat Rusty-Hanzo, but unless he gets extremely lucky he probably needs prior knowledge in-order to have goods odds of doing so. Otherwise w/o knowledge there are a myriad of ways he could loose this match. And let's bare in mind this is based on feats, which Hanzo had two chapters to accumulate, in a situation where he couldn't use Ninjutsu due to the specific enemy he was up against and him being rusty, while on the other hand Kisame has had huge number of chapters to accumulate feats. 

---------

In the case of Prime-Hanzo there is no way Kisame is winning this unless circumstances are heavily skewed in his favor. Kisame himself is inferior to the likes of Jiriaya, who clearly considered Prime-Hanzo much stronger than himself and pretty much anyone he knew about that wasn't a fairtale/myth.  And besides being in general much stronger than Kisame, Prime-Hanzo would be a horrid match up for Kisame, as in his Prime-Hanzo is actually the top speedster in the water, which actually turns Kisame's greatest ability [aquatic combat and drowning the enemy] into a disadvantage against Hanzo. So Kisame is literally thee worst character you can pick to try and argue has a chance against Prime-Hanzo.



Icegaze said:


> i didnt know we were using hype in this thread in that case i guess strongest he could beat is jiriaya. or somewhere around that level
> hype is something kishi always failed to deliver on. utterly
> 
> on what was shown honestly asuma would beat hanzo


I said both can be used. Prime-Hanzo is more of a discussion of Hype/Portrayal, while Rusty-Hanzo is more (though not completely) a discussion of feats.

Asuma couldn't avoid being scratched by Hidan, whose CQC pale in comparison to Mifune's, who Rusty-Hanzo kept pace with, until their final exchange. Asume gets scratched a few seconds into the fight and that's GG. Asuma doesn't even last 1 second against Prime-Hanzo before being scratched, given the increase in physical abilities he's suppose to have.


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## Icegaze (Apr 7, 2015)

Sorry turrin i cant quote you on this did you just say with what hanzo showed against mifune he could beat kisame? seriously? he got a scythe which showed nothing impressive and a salamander with poison. please explain how either stop kisame from using daikodan and calling it a day. also being able to avoid bee puts kisame reaction leaps and bounds above what hanzo showed. kisame with just samehada wins in 1 or 2 swings. granted he could get poisoned due to trolling hanzo and hitting the sack. so at best hanzo can draw 

btw given the hype u trying to give hanzo due to 1 silly poison scythe i am surprised u dont think sasori neg diffs kisame. seeing that hanzo is a poor man's version of sasori with a silly mask 

Hype is the only way hanzo stays relevant by feats really asuma might be even too much. hanzo skill with his scythe was far less impressive than hidan. asuma clashes with hanzo and hanzo weapon becomes broken metal. very quickly. hanzo only got 1 sharp end and far less range than hidan. hanzo mistake would be in attempting a direct clash like he did with mifune. Asuma showed enough skill to not be trolled by kisame someone who could fight with killer bee. i think asuma skill is being ignored here. 

i only know rusty hanzo prime hanzo is fan fic based on fan bias. mifune showed no speed which indicates he is far faster than asuma. asuma rushes in uses his chakra knives and calls it a day. hanzo didnt even last 1 chapter against mifune. so he may last 1.5 chapters against asuma

cuz sure as hell mifune isnt beating asuma with anything less than ridiculous high difficulty


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## Rocky (Apr 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I don't think that exists man. There was a statement where Jiriaya said it's not easy to compare anyone to the Fourth, as he was a once in a decade genius, but again that speaks to talent not power.



Okay.



> Ei is one the same "level" as Jiriaya, but so is Minato. It's just that Minato and Jiraiya are overall better shinobi than Ei.



But what about A's "you father could never be surpassed" statement to Naruto? Couldn't that be compared to Jiraiya's "the Akatsuki leader couldn't have surpassed Hanzo?"



> There's a fundamental difference between those two groups. Minato and Hiruzen are people Jiraiya knew on a personal level, that existed in recent history. Characters like Hashirama, Madara, and Hagoromo were on the other hand active before Jiraiya was born and their abilities had become the things of myths and fairytales. Whether Jiriaya put more stock into those tales than the average person, really doesn't give Jiriaya any means to confirm that the great power of these people really existed. On-top of that there had never been any individual since them throughout Jiriaya's long life that display powers even remotely close to theirs, so much so that when Jiriaya even brings up the idea that perhaps someone could control the Demon-Fox the Toad Scroll laughs in his face about how ridiculous that notion is.



Wait a sec. That would make sense if I had just brought up Rikudo & Kaguya, but I didn't. I also brought up Hashirama & Madara, who were _alive_ when Jiraiya was. Tsunade & Jiraiya are the same age, and Tsunade was at an age where her strength was _comparable_ (notice the word "might") to Byakugo Sakura's before Hashirama died.

Hashirama was not a mythical creature. He too existed in recent history...he just didn't know Jiraiya personally. Hell, it's possible he did; it depends on when exactly Shodai died.



> I wouldn't place someone who is a bit stronger than Minato and Hiruzen, as on Nagato's "level", rather I think it would just give us someone who is between the two.



Above Minato & Prime Hiruzen was what I had an issue with, not next to Nagato.

I don't think the strongest Hanzo is _favored_ against would be those two. I would say it's Jiraiya.


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## Icegaze (Apr 7, 2015)

loosing to mifune kinda puts him as low as possible. 
since mifune is not at all even slightly competing with anyone above the likes of asuma

mifune gets neg diff by base jiriaya, tsunade, orochimaru, old hiruzen etc. so unless loosing skill had hanzo drop 2-3 tiers he could not have been that strong. 

bringing up people like hebi sasuke who lol genjutsu gg is just unfair.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Yes, they were indeed weaker. Being weaker than they were in Part II doesn't automatically mean that they were weak enough to where Mifune could stomp all three at once.



Even if Mifune couldn't handle all three at once (we have absolutely no evidence to go by, either way), that doesn't necessarily mean he isn't capable of fighting someone who could; Iaijutsu seems more suitable for a single enemy, as having to blitz multiple people on a battlefield before they can mount an offense (and doing it with only one sword, mind you) would require Mifune to be that much faster, that he could repeat the same moves without allowing retaliation (which is what prevented Hanzo's Ninjutsu and kept him engaged in swordplay, which is Mifune's game). So using the Sannin as a point of comparison doesn't fairly reflect on their individual skills. It's like how standardized tests are racist and perpetuate institutionalized heteronormative values. ck



> Mifune can't even really compete with any of the Sannin individually when they're older.



Hanzo couldn't, either. 

But I wouldn't expect either of them to go down without a fight.


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sorry turrin i cant quote you on this did you just say with what hanzo showed against mifune he could beat kisame? seriously? he got a scythe which showed nothing impressive and a salamander with poison. please explain how either stop kisame from using daikodan and calling it a day.


The sole time Kisame used Daikodan was when up against 7th-Gate Gai. I have no reason to believe that he'll be busting Diakodan at any point in the beginning or middle of a match against Hanzo.



> also being able to avoid bee puts kisame reaction leaps and bounds above what hanzo showed


Kisame didn't avoid B. Base-B, who couldn't even use his 8-Sword style, tagged him with his sword in his opening gambit:
_comparable_

If that was Hanzo, Kisame would have lost the match, right there.



> kisame with just samehada wins in 1 or 2 swings.


Mifune is more adept at CQC than Kisame, and Rusty-Hanzo fought him in CQC for over 5min. The idea that Kisame can beat him in 1 to 2 swings is absolute ludicrous.



> granted he could get poisoned due to trolling hanzo and hitting the sack. so at best hanzo can draw


If it's a draw how is that Kisame stomping him lol.



> btw given the hype u trying to give hanzo due to 1 silly poison scythe i am surprised u dont think sasori neg diffs kisame. seeing that hanzo is a poor man's version of sasori with a silly mask


If Kisame went up against Sasori w/o knowledge of his poison and Samehada couldn't absorb the chakra off Sasori's Kugutsu strings rending the puppet immobile, than Sasori would likely defeat Kisame with Low to Mid Diff.

Though saying Hanzo is a poor man's version of Sasori is false. Hanzo's CQC skills excel those of any individual puppets of Sasori's making his blows more difficult to evade w/o a scratch. Though Sasori has Satetsu and 100 Puppets that are more dangerous poison deliver methods than Hanzo's CQC, but than Hanzo also has other poison deliver methods as well (Breath and Ibusei).

Bottom line is both Hanzo and Sasori are bitches to handle w/o knowledge of their poisons, but I'd place the hax of Hanzo's indistinguishable poison breath higher than any poison delivery method Sasori has.



> Hype is the only way hanzo stays relevant by feats really asuma might be even too much. hanzo skill with his scythe was far less impressive than hidan.


How is Hidan's CQC skill more impressive than a man who could fighting against the greatest Samurai for 5min. Hidan has a 3.5 in speed in the DB. Mifune kept up with Sasuke who has a 4.5 [and sharingan precog] as well as his IAI strikes being compared to light-speed in the DB:

"Speed of light sword slash flies and assails the enemy! A single blow from the sword techniques of mifune's meitou (legendary sword) Kurosawa comply with this!! "

How in the world does Hidan compare with this.



> asuma clashes with hanzo and hanzo weapon becomes broken metal. very quickly. hanzo only got 1 sharp end and far less range than hidan. hanzo mistake would be in attempting a direct clash like he did with mifune. Asuma showed enough skill to not be trolled by kisame someone who could fight with killer bee. i think asuma skill is being ignored here.


Because that's what happened with Hidan right.



> only know rusty hanzo prime hanzo is fan fic based on fan bias


Actually it's fan bias to ignore direct statements, not the other way around.



> i. mifune showed no speed which indicates he is far faster than asuma. asuma rushes in uses his chakra knives and calls it a day. hanzo didnt even last 1 chapter against mifune. so he may last 1.5 chapters against asuma


He kept up with a man whose slashes are compared to the speed of light in the Data-book for 5min, his speed feats far excel someone like Hidan who has a 3.5 and self admitted slowest attacking speed in Akatsuki. 



> cuz sure as hell mifune isnt beating asuma with anything less than ridiculous high difficulty


Mifune would blitz Asuma and call it a day. The same language used to describe Minato's Hiraishin and Naruto's KCM Shunshin is used in the DB to describe Mifune's IAI slashes. And while i'm not suggesting they are as fast as those 2, that certainly evokes the idea that they are extraordinarily fast, much more so than anything Asuma has been shown to handle. Not to mention they are clearly two vastly different classes of Shinobi. Mifune was a division commander in the war alongside characters like Darui, Kakashi, Kitsuchi, and Gaara, Asuma was just there to be owned by Team 10. 

You need to start considering what the story is actually indicating about characters and the facts that the DB as well as manga provides us, not just you valuing one feat above another, and than ignoring all evidence to the contrary; otherwise I'm not really going to bother discussing things much further with you.



Icegaze said:


> loosing to mifune kinda puts him as low as possible.
> .


Mifune was a natural foil to Hanzo as he was immune to Hanzo poison. On-top of that Mifune didn't even beat him, he ultimately offed himself


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## Nikushimi (Apr 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The raw text clearly says his skill declined, not just a loss of beliefs.
> 
> 技 = skill
> _comparable_



Yes, that was the result of Hanzo losing his convictions; his kusarigama being cut through was a visual metaphor of that. However, I do not see any reason to believe Hanzo's Jutsu and physical ability deteriorated significantly.



> I don't see how Jiraiya could be mistaken about Prime-Hanzo's strength, he isn't exactly new to the Job of Shinobi. And I see no point to Kishi having Jiriaya make an erroneous statement



It's not that Jiraiya is mistaken or erroneous, it's that Kishimoto has issued some dubious hype statements in the past and this one is pretty dubious.

It's also important to understand that Mifune cockblocked all of Hanzo's Ninjutsu, so we never actually got to see what the guy was capable of--even as an Edo Tensei. That's part of why I say there is no "prime/rusty" Hanzo, since we didn't really get a good look at Hanzo period.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 7, 2015)

I don't think Nagato's statement was about Prime Hanzo being strong enough to win. More like he was weakened so much that it was a complete stomp. And he didn't even understand Pain's abilities. While someone like Jiraiya who didn't consider himself Hanzo's peer performed admirably. 

That being said it is difficult to accurately place hype Hanzo due to multiple retcons and Kishi not being good with pure hype in general. Personally I think of him as someone on SM Jiraiya/Pre-Zetsu Oro with arms level. Give or take. 

What we got out of his Edo Tensei is a different story, sadly. But he is still very deadly without knowledge and can take out a fair amount of big names just with that advantage.


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Yes, that was the result of Hanzo losing his convictions; his kusarigama being cut through was a visual metaphor of that. However, I do not see any reason to believe Hanzo's Jutsu and physical ability deteriorated significantly.


He went from a man who Jiriaya didn't think anyone could be stronger than, to "loosing" to Mifune. Albeit Mifune was a poor match up and ultimately he offed himself, but that still clearly indicates a significant decline. Not to mention there is the common sense aspect that someone who doesn't practice their skills and instead locks themselves up in a tower for a decade or possibly multiple decades [depending on the time-line], only getting older and less physically fit, would be nowhere near as skilled as he once was. 



> It's not that Jiraiya is mistaken or erroneous, it's that Kishimoto has issued some dubious hype statements in the past and this one is pretty dubious.


And I agree with that if Kishi gave us reason to believe it was retecon'd, but he doesn't. Instead he goes out of way to justify why Hanzo "lost" to Mifune, when he had the perfect oppertunity to demonstrate Hanzo's strength was retecon'd, by not giving Mifune poison immunity, talking about Hanzo being rusty, and ultimately having Hanzo off himself, and just making it a straight forward win for Mifune. The fact that he didn't do that, and has given no indication of Hanzo's strength being retecon'd in the manga or data-books, makes it unlikely that it was.

Basically unless there is compelling evidence to the contrary, we should take a statement from a legendary sannin who once fought Hanzo and has years of experience, pretty seriously.



> It's also important to understand that Mifune cockblocked all of Hanzo's Ninjutsu, so we never actually got to see what the guy was capable of--even as an Edo Tensei. That's part of why I say there is no "prime/rusty" Hanzo, since we didn't really get a good look at Hanzo period.


Well if you want to abstain from rating them due to lack of information I can understand that, but since the Manga is over and it seems highly unlikely that we are going to get more information on Hanzo, I thought we might as well discuss him now, even if we do have to delve a bit into hype considering the lack of feats to do so.

With that said I think even based on Hanzo's few feats there can still be a good argument made for him being capable of beating most shinobi, simply due to how difficult it is to avoid his various poison delivery methods.


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## Icegaze (Apr 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The sole time Kisame used Daikodan was when up against 7th-Gate Gai. I have no reason to believe that he'll be busting Diakodan at any point in the beginning or middle of a match against Hanzo.



so the excuse here is despite hanzo rep. kisame wont use his best jutsu. isnt that a cheap one. 
its not like daikodan was stated to be his last resort technique or anything



> Kisame didn't avoid B. Base-B, who couldn't even use his 8-Sword style, tagged him with his sword in his opening gambit:
> _comparable_
> 
> If that was Hanzo, Kisame would have lost the match, right there.



odd in the panel u showed we see kisame blocking killer bee. a much faster opponent than lol hanzo and mifune



> Mifune is more adept at CQC than Kisame, and Rusty-Hanzo fought him in CQC for over 5min. The idea that Kisame can beat him in 1 to 2 swings is absolute ludicrous.



kisame has the better sword and more physical strength. so unless u are saying kisame cant block mifune. kisame wins by simply overpowering him. do you have any proof that mifune and hanzo fight lasted 5 mins or did u make that up for the lolz



> If it's a draw how is that Kisame stomping him lol.



i said the best hanzo can hope for is a draw. however its unlikely that happens when kisame could flush him down the toilet 



> If Kisame went up against Sasori w/o knowledge of his poison and Samehada couldn't absorb the chakra off Sasori's Kugutsu strings rending the puppet immobile, than Sasori would likely defeat Kisame with Low to Mid Diff.



ok so far as u believe that. its fine. i thought u were going to change ur mind on this one. however i find it odd people think kisame to be an idiot. why cant he just use his subterrainan voyage against either hanzo or sasori to mitigate the risk of getting poisoned?



> Though saying Hanzo is a poor man's version of Sasori is false. Hanzo's CQC skills excel those of any individual puppets of Sasori's making his blows more difficult to evade w/o a scratch. Though Sasori has Satetsu and 100 Puppets that are more dangerous poison deliver methods than Hanzo's CQC, but than Hanzo also has other poison deliver methods as well (Breath and Ibusei).



hanzo is far less likely to catch u with poison than sasori is. iron sand>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hanzo entire shown arsenal. breath is very close range and ibuse poison is no different from the 3rd kazekage puppet poison canister 



> Bottom line is both Hanzo and Sasori are bitches to handle w/o knowledge of their poisons, but I'd place the hax of Hanzo's indistinguishable poison breath higher than any poison delivery method Sasori has.



only for those with no way to avoid being poisoned while attacking. kisame is not one of them. his doton technique says high to both of them 



> How is Hidan's CQC skill more impressive than a man who could fighting against the greatest Samurai for 5min. Hidan has a 3.5 in speed in the DB. Mifune kept up with Sasuke who has a 4.5 [and sharingan precog] as well as his IAI strikes being compared to light-speed in the DB:



any proof it was 5 mins. what was shown on panel hidan was more impressive. feel free to look at both again. also hidan weapon is longer and has better range.  mifune did not keep up with sasuke. he attacked sasuke and sasuke blocked. thats not keeping up 




> "Speed of light sword slash flies and assails the enemy! A single blow from the sword techniques of mifune's meitou (legendary sword) Kurosawa comply with this!! "



read what kishi says about raiton gian. impossible to dodge bla bla, yet shikamaru was reacting to it. its ichibe who pointed this one out to me 



> How in the world does Hidan compare with this.



he does so casually. he got the better weapon here and superior agility 



> Because that's what happened with Hidan right.



hidan got the better weapon and he did cut up the knives hidan used. if that was hidan scythe hidan wont have had it anymore. whats hanzo going to clash with here?



> Actually it's fan bias to ignore direct statements, not the other way around.



fair enough direct statements right. i accept. then A is the fastest man alive. Air palm is capable of internal damage, tsunade cant be killed etc. the list goes on. btw all of those things i mentioned were shown to be untrue



> He kept up with a man whose slashes are compared to the speed of light in the Data-book for 5min, his speed feats far excel someone like Hidan who has a 3.5 and self admitted slowest attacking speed in Akatsuki.



and kakashi raikiri cut lightning so i take it kakashi is faster than lightning. yet he cant blitz hidan. see how that works?



> Mifune would blitz Asuma and call it a day. The same language used to describe Minato's Hiraishin and Naruto's KCM Shunshin is used in the DB to describe Mifune's IAI slashes. And while i'm not suggesting they are as fast as those 2, that certainly evokes the idea that they are extraordinarily fast, much more so than anything Asuma has been shown to handle. Not to mention they are clearly two vastly different classes of Shinobi. Mifune was a division commander in the war alongside characters like Darui, Kakashi, Kitsuchi, and Gaara, Asuma was just there to be owned by Team 10.



well kakashi couldnt blitz hidan who couldnt blitz asuma despite. kakashi speed being superior to lightning based on statements. u know since he cut lightnign in half 



> You need to start considering what the story is actually indicating about characters and the facts that the DB as well as manga provides us, not just you valuing one feat above another, and than ignoring all evidence to the contrary; otherwise I'm not really going to bother discussing things much further with you.



am fine with statements but when someone foolishy believes the statement striking at the speed of light means he is going to be blitzing people despite all evidence to the contrary then yh i gotta give u a pat on the head 



> Mifune was a natural foil to Hanzo as he was immune to Hanzo poison. On-top of that Mifune didn't even beat him, he ultimately offed himself



mifune fighting style is easily replicated by asuma. again mifune wasnt even once noted on panel to be fast. a DB statement is just that. again that would put amaterasu as a jutsu which is instant and hotter than the sun etc. 

all Db and characters statements should be taken with a grain of salt otherwise we got kakashi who is faster than lightning yet cant blitz hidan and Ei who is much faster than lightning 
which is entirely ridiculous


----------



## Turrin (Apr 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so the excuse here is despite hanzo rep. kisame wont use his best jutsu. isnt that a cheap one.
> its not like daikodan was stated to be his last resort technique or anything


Despite Kakashi's rep and Itachi directly warning him not to underestimate him Kisame started with a small water-shark. Despite Killer-B's rep and B just managing to totally troll MS-Sasuke, Kisame started with CQC against B. I fail to see any reason why someone he just knows as famous would prompt Diakodan from him as one of his opening moves if these two did not.



> dd in the panel u showed we see kisame blocking killer bee.


We also see a sword that he didn't dodge sticking out of Kisame's shoulder. Since one scratch from Hanzo is GG, that's all it would take for GG, if he was facing him.



> a much faster opponent than lol hanzo and mifune


And this is based on, what exactly? Sasuke kept pace with B well, and it wasn't until 8-Sword Style that he was outmatched [which he didn't even use against Kisame]. Mifune kept up with Sasuke, who in-turn Hanzo kept up with. Not to mention Kisame himself is inferior to Sasuke in speed.



> kisame has the better sword and more physical strength. so unless u are saying kisame cant block mifune. kisame wins by simply overpowering him.


I'm saying Kisame would have a hard time avoiding a single scratch against an enemy of Mifune and Hanzo's caliber, when he doesn't know he needs to avoid such a minor wound. 

It's much easier to scratch someone, than landing a mortal wound.



> do you have any proof that mifune and hanzo fight lasted 5 mins or did u make that up for the lolz


Ibusei's poison requires a 5min recharge. He releases it right before Hanzo vs Mifune, and than releases it again before the end of Hanzo vs Mifune. Hence the fight must have lasted at least 5min.



> i said the best hanzo can hope for is a draw.


And that's another thing if Kisame ruptures the poison sack, he inhales the poison and dies. Hanzo on the other hand is immobilized for some time, but survives. So the scenario you outlined wouldn't be a draw, but Hanzo's victory.



> ok so far as u believe that. its fine. i thought u were going to change ur mind on this one. however i find it odd people think kisame to be an idiot. why cant he just use his subterrainan voyage against either hanzo or sasori to mitigate the risk of getting poisoned?


Depends on if he has knowledge of there poison delivery methods, which is why I said if he doesn't have knowledge.

Though against Hanzo this wouldn't work so well since Hanzo can generate enough poison to poison the water itself, Sasori hasn't shown the quantity of poison so it might be more effective against him, but only w/ knowledge.



> hanzo is far less likely to catch u with poison than sasori is. iron sand>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hanzo entire shown arsenal. breath is very close range and ibuse poison is no different from the 3rd kazekage puppet poison canister


The 3-Kazekage's poison canister covers about 1/100th the scope of Ibusei's gas cloud, it also has a different hue which can tip others off it it being poison, while Ibusei's doesn't. Ibusei's is vastly more difficult to deal with. 

And regardless if whether posion breath is close range or not, it's the undetectable nature that makes it extremely difficult to deal with.



> only for those with no way to avoid being poisoned while attacking. kisame is not one of them. his doton technique says high to both of them


I don't see how Doton helps him. He creates a tunnel, which Ibuesei's gas floods. literally that's like the worst move Kisame could make. Not to mention it once again relies on him having knowledge that they use poison.



> what was shown on panel hidan was more impressive. feel free to look at both again. also hidan weapon is longer and has better range.


No you subjectively think Hidan is better, while all the facts tell us he is not.



> he attacked sasuke and sasuke blocked. thats not keeping up


He attacked Sasuke and Sasuke barely blocked in time, than he was able to slash the curtain quick enough to have Sasuke fall to the ground. If anything he held the edge in that exchange.



> read what kishi says about raiton gian. impossible to dodge bla bla, yet shikamaru was reacting to it. its ichibe who pointed this one out to me


I've read the Data-books multiple times and I know they use hyperbola, but there is still some internal logic of those hyperbola. However the take away is still suppose to be Mifune's IAI techniques are extremely fast, much more so than the slowest Akatsuki.



> he does so casually. he got the better weapon here and superior agility


They use a very similar weapon. And when Hidan keeps up with a master Samruai we can talk.



> hidan got the better weapon and he did cut up the knives hidan used. if that was hidan scythe hidan wont have had it anymore. whats hanzo going to clash with here?


And the end result was Hidan scratching Asuma. If that was Hanzo, the match ends right there and Hanzo being more skilled than Hidan, i'm fairly certain it would be even easier for him to do so.



> fair enough direct statements right. i accept. then A is the fastest man alive. Air palm is capable of internal damage, tsunade cant be killed etc. the list goes on. btw all of those things i mentioned were shown to be untrue


Cool and if a statement is shown to be wrong than we should consider it within that context, but the assumption should not be all statements are wrong so let's disregard them. We've also had hype statements that are true, such as ones about Hashirama, Gai's 8th-Gate, and so on. The default position is we go with the statement until proven otherwise.

Is Hanzo's case there is nothing that indicates otherwise.



> and kakashi raikiri cut lightning so i take it kakashi is faster than lightning. yet he cant blitz hidan. see how that works?


No actually I don't. The statement about Rarikiri is about it's piercing power not speed. The statement about Mifune's slashes is about their speed. Two different things. The language used in Mifune's statement while albeit hyperbola, still tells readers we are suppose to consider these slashes to be ungodly fast, and why wouldn't we Mifune is master Samurai who has be honoing his Kenjutsu for years and is famous world wide for hand-seals not working against him due to the speed of his strikes. We have every reason to believe that his strikes are super-fast.



> well kakashi couldnt blitz hidan who couldnt blitz asuma despite. kakashi speed being superior to lightning based on statements. u know since he cut lightnign in half


Kakashi fought Hidan off with a mere Kunai w/o receiving any scratches and while also having to worry about Kakuzu. How that demonstrates Hidan is equivalent to Kakashi in your mind I have no clue.



> am fine with statements but when someone foolishy believes the statement striking at the speed of light means he is going to be blitzing people despite all evidence to the contrary then yh i gotta give u a pat on the head


I believe that a man who is the strongest Samurai in the World, who is famous for the speed of his strikes, and has his speed significantly hyped by the author, is faster than A) A dude who specific professes that his attacks are the slowest in Akatsuki and B) Another dude who easy scratched by the first dude.



> mifune fighting style is easily replicated by asuma. again mifune wasnt even once noted on panel to be fast. a DB statement is just that. again that would put amaterasu as a jutsu which is instant and hotter than the sun etc.


Like what are you even talking about. His speed was so famous that people believed no one could form hand-seals against the guy. 



> all Db and characters statements should be taken with a grain of salt otherwise we got kakashi who is faster than lightning yet cant blitz hidan and Ei who is much faster than lightning


Ei isn't faster than lightning?

Kakashi's statement isn't even about reacting or speed. It's about piercing. For all we know he could have stood next to a lightning rod with Rarikiri above his head waiting for it strike so he could clash the two. Plus that's not even just a DB statement the manga also states he cut lightning with Rarikiri. So like what the fuck man.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Despite Kakashi's rep and Itachi directly warning him not to underestimate him Kisame started with a small water-shark. Despite Killer-B's rep and B just managing to totally troll MS-Sasuke, Kisame started with CQC against B. I fail to see any reason why someone he just knows as famous would prompt Diakodan from him as one of his opening moves if these two did not.



hanzo rep>>>kakashi rep. again its not a rep of power but of abilities here. he would know hanzo uses poison. why on earth would he directly engage him. again killer bee easiest way to deal with him was with a chakra absorbing sword. same cant be said about hanzo. and one more time kakashi rep was a shit stain to hanzo rep. 



> We also see a sword that he didn't dodge sticking out of Kisame's shoulder. Since one scratch from Hanzo is GG, that's all it would take for GG, if he was facing him.



hanzo neither has bee throwing speed or ability to corner kisame in that manner. 



> And this is based on, what exactly? Sasuke kept pace with B well, and it wasn't until 8-Sword Style that he was outmatched [which he didn't even use against Kisame]. Mifune kept up with Sasuke, who in-turn Hanzo kept up with. Not to mention Kisame himself is inferior to Sasuke in speed.



 mifune attacked sasuke and sasuke blocked. how on earth is that keeping up. kisame is inferior to sasuke in speed. u know who else is and by a larger margin hanzo



> I'm saying Kisame would have a hard time avoiding a single scratch against an enemy of Mifune and Hanzo's caliber, when he doesn't know he needs to avoid such a minor wound.



hanzo and mifune arent in the same caliber though. mifune beat him in a few panels. and again due to hanzo poison kisame has no reason to engage him directly when he can casually nuke him



> It's much easier to scratch someone, than landing a mortal wound.



kisame doton is a casually counter to hanzo entire cqc style



> Ibusei's poison requires a 5min recharge. He releases it right before Hanzo vs Mifune, and than releases it again before the end of Hanzo vs Mifune. Hence the fight must have lasted at least 5min.



thanks. ibuse tries to use poison. kisame drowns it. unless u think their AoE are remotely similar. also note against 6th gate gai the first thing kisame did was 1000 sharks. he starts off with that again hanzo and he has effectively won the match



> And that's another thing if Kisame ruptures the poison sack, he inhales the poison and dies. Hanzo on the other hand is immobilized for some time, but survives. So the scenario you outlined wouldn't be a draw, but Hanzo's victory.



1000 sharks which he started with against 6th gate gai prevents that. if kisame ruptures the sack he would have mortally wounded hanzo. therefore a draw. unless u think opening ur abdomen isnt fatal



> Depends on if he has knowledge of there poison delivery methods, which is why I said if he doesn't have knowledge.



he has manga knowledge he doesnt need to know how poison is delivered to know he shouldnt come close and just nuke him 



> Though against Hanzo this wouldn't work so well since Hanzo can generate enough poison to poison the water itself, Sasori hasn't shown the quantity of poison so it might be more effective against him, but only w/ knowledge.



 the scale of their jutsu arent remotely similar. again 1000 sharks poisoned or not will still eat up hanzo. its not like kisame will be swimming in it 



> The 3-Kazekage's poison canister covers about 1/100th the scope of Ibusei's gas cloud, it also has a different hue which can tip others off it it being poison, while Ibusei's doesn't. Ibusei's is vastly more difficult to deal with.



 proof of this 



> And regardless if whether posion breath is close range or not, it's the undetectable nature that makes it extremely difficult to deal with.



kisame can casually fight at a distance. so breath is pointless



> I don't see how Doton helps him. He creates a tunnel, which Ibuesei's gas floods. literally that's like the worst move Kisame could make. Not to mention it once again relies on him having knowledge that they use poison.



. a tunnel plugged up by samehada which is the only thing protruding from the hole. 

kisame has manga knowledge. why wont he know hanzo uses poison considering thats his basic fighting style. again kisame floods hanzo quicker than hanzo can summon his salamder and have it spread poison 



> No you subjectively think Hidan is better, while all the facts tell us he is not.



 u mean DB statements. suuure gian is impossible to dodge then. 



> He attacked Sasuke and Sasuke barely blocked in time, than he was able to slash the curtain quick enough to have Sasuke fall to the ground. If anything he held the edge in that exchange.



any proof sasuke barely blocked in time or did u make that up. sasuke didnt mention this at all
he blocked it casually. 



> I've read the Data-books multiple times and I know they use hyperbola, but there is still some internal logic of those hyperbola. However the take away is still suppose to be Mifune's IAI techniques are extremely fast, much more so than the slowest Akatsuki.



your logic or kishi's? yes mifune techniques are fast i have never doubted it. however while he is faster than hidan something i never disputed that doesnt suddenly make hanzo faster than hidan. since hanzo was only keeping up due to better range of his weapon. hidan can do the same



> They use a very similar weapon. And when Hidan keeps up with a master Samruai we can talk.



hidan's is longer and that was a very dumb statement. when mifune keeps up with kakashi then we can talk.  see how that works?



> And the end result was Hidan scratching Asuma. If that was Hanzo, the match ends right there and Hanzo being more skilled than Hidan, i'm fairly certain it would be even easier for him to do so.



zero proof he is more skilled u making that shit up. poll it please. let me see what NF thinks cuz u bullshitting hard. 



> Cool and if a statement is shown to be wrong than we should consider it within that context, but the assumption should not be all statements are wrong so let's disregard them. We've also had hype statements that are true, such as ones about Hashirama, Gai's 8th-Gate, and so on. The default position is we go with the statement until proven otherwise.



fair enough. mifune didnt cover that much distance and barely made it to block hanzo seal. despite hanzo having no hype of having fast hand seals. so mifune being as fast as DB says was proven wrong right there. 



> Is Hanzo's case there is nothing that indicates otherwise.



hanzo hype faar outweighs the little he showed 




> No actually I don't. The statement about Rarikiri is about it's piercing power not speed. The statement about Mifune's slashes is about their speed. Two different things. The language used in Mifune's statement while albeit hyperbola, still tells readers we are suppose to consider these slashes to be ungodly fast, and why wouldn't we Mifune is master Samurai who has be honoing his Kenjutsu for years and is famous world wide for hand-seals not working against him due to the speed of his strikes. We have every reason to believe that his strikes are super-fast.



 so cutting lightning isnt fast? i get u  yes hanzo strikes are super fast. Air palm is considered super fast. kishi words exactly does that mean it cant be dodged or countered?



> Kakashi fought Hidan off with a mere Kunai w/o receiving any scratches and while also having to worry about Kakuzu. How that demonstrates Hidan is equivalent to Kakashi in your mind I have no clue.



hidan kept up with kakashi as much as u imagine mifune kept up with hidan. more so even. they clashed more than once.  its equivalent in my mind since u have the audacity to claim 1 clash against sasuke meant mifune was keepign up 



> I believe that a man who is the strongest Samurai in the World, who is famous for the speed of his strikes, and has his speed significantly hyped by the author, is faster than A) A dude who specific professes that his attacks are the slowest in Akatsuki and B) Another dude who easy scratched by the first dude.



mifune trolled hanzo. they arent on the same level. so i dont get the mifune hype 



> Like what are you even talking about. His speed was so famous that people believed no one could form hand-seals against the guy.



so then i take it he can stop itach handseals. who is faster mifune or Ei? if all it took was some speed to stop everyone hand seal.  EI would be by far the strongest ninja yet he isnt at all 



> Ei isn't faster than lightning?



no he is not. why would he be



> Kakashi's statement isn't even about reacting or speed. It's about piercing. For all we know he could have stood next to a lightning rod with Rarikiri above his head waiting for it strike so he could clash the two. Plus that's not even just a DB statement the manga also states he cut lightning with Rarikiri. So like what the fuck man.


[/QUOTE]

cutting lightning would indicate u must be at least as fast. again was a hype about its speed. read the manga again 

yes so kakashi got speed above lightning yet cant straight up blitz hidan. i guess hidan isnt that slow then. 

when has mifune cut lightning ?  

btw for all the mifune hype hiashi trolls him haaaaard. and hiashi aint even that strong.


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2015)

Why does Kisame have knowledge of Hanzo's poison delivery methods?

That's my only question, the rest is too cringe worthy to bother with.



> kisame has manga knowledge. why wont he know hanzo uses poison considering thats his basic fighting style.


The same reason that a myriad of alliance member didn't know about Hanzo's poison. Same reason Mifune in the flashback didn't know about Hanzo's poison. The only three people that have ever shown knowledge of Hanzo's poison were Chiyo, Mifune, and Kabuto. Mifune and Chiyo fought against him before and Kabuto had him as a Tensei. That's it. Now suddenly Kisame has knowledge of his poison, just cause.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> awww cute clown making me laugh. first off this laughable statement of yours where are you getting it from? Sasuke>Mifune>Hanzou>lot of characters>Kisame any proof of this?
> 
> yes poison works inside water. what does that have to do with daikodan fucking over hanzo with no feats?
> 
> ...




So you want to make a joke of yourself once again.

Mifune is the leader of the samurais, warriors that only fight using kenjutsu, and Mifune is above them all.

Mifune's kenjutsu feared by ninjas because It's so fast that ninjas can't perform handseals > Kisame's normal to good kenjutsu.

Hanzou's speed> Kisame's speed.

Hanzou's poison = Kisame GG


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## Icegaze (Apr 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Why does Kisame have knowledge of Hanzo's poison delivery methods?



he need not know the method. someone uses poison u dont go engage him. same way if u fighting a puppet user u dont engage directly 



> That's my only question, the rest is too cringe worthy to bother with.



lol cuz u wrong. i know u cringe worthy 



> The same reason that a myriad of alliance member didn't know about Hanzo's poison. Same reason Mifune in the flashback didn't know about Hanzo's poison. The only three people that have ever shown knowledge of Hanzo's poison were Chiyo, Mifune, and Kabuto. Mifune and Chiyo fought against him before and Kabuto had him as a Tensei. That's it. Now suddenly Kisame has knowledge of his poison, just cause.



please show 1 alliance member surprised that he uses poison. just 1 please. 
pain defeated hanzo. u mean to tell me nagato had no idea of hanzo abilities despite fighting him. worse that said info would never have been shared with other members? 

lets put it simply. hanzo decides to summon kisame either cuts it down with the same ease mifune did or drows it. and btw kisame default start is to barf out a lake. 

first fight itachi told him not 2
second fight lake was barfed out 
3rd fight didnt need 2
4th tsunami of sharks. 

so if u mean to make it sound like kisame always engages up close think again 50% of the time he landscapes the place

btw for all ur mifune hype. note he beat hanzo in 5 mins. so i dont get how fictional mifune hype translates to hanzo who he beat in 5 mins. if he can win in 5 mins doesnt that put him clearly above hanzo. whose best feat was to fail at hiting mifune who engaged him up close

btw before u cringe at hiashi trolling mifune. feel free to tell me how he wins. mr i am right and you are wrong cuz someone u manage to translate Db through trial and error. clap for urself

@the other poster who i dont care to name  
argue with urself but before that do tell me where it says mifune swords skills is feared by ninjas


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @the other poster who i dont care to name
> argue with urself but before that do tell me where it says mifune swords skills is feared by ninjas



Kimimaro's defense is still above Madara's Susanoo? 

Btw the shinobis from the alliance were the ones to say that Mifune was feared by the shinobis because of his speed.


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## Icegaze (Apr 7, 2015)

Scans of such 
or do u just want to make shit up for the lolz
yes fodders hyped him big whoop. feared by shinobi yet 80% of known shinobi downright low diff him 
sure thing


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Scans of such
> or do u just want to make shit up for the lolz
> yes fodders hyped him big whoop. feared by shinobi yet 80% of known shinobi downright low diff him
> sure thing





LOL, Mifune is a Kage level character, he is above the 80% of the verse.


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## Icegaze (Apr 7, 2015)

here is a list of characters who utterly neg diff mifune. since u decided to push me to it. this is 20 people off the bat mind you 

gaara
Ei
tsunade
sasori
kisame
itachi
nagato
minato
jiriaya
orochimaru
hiashi
kakashi
muu
gengetsu
sandaime raikage
Ma or Pa (yes the frogs)
gai
neji
jugo
konan
kakuzu
killer bee 

ah didnt bother to number them. but if so many can be listed in less than 10 seconds. then yh beign above 80% of the relevant verse is a clear exaggeration 

hanzo statmement is bogus when the likes of asuma, kakashi, Ei pull off ninjutsu with no seals
when the likes of sasori do the same, when itachi seals cant be read by sharigan

that statement holds as much value as asuma being the foremost ninja in close quarter combat. since thats obviously not true neither is such a laughable statement


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> here is a list of characters who utterly neg diff mifune. since u decided to push me to it. this is 20 people off the bat mind you
> 
> gaara
> Ei
> ...



You are stupid, and no, that many don't make that he isn't above the 80% of the characters.

Also He can take the following of the ones you listed:
Kisame 
Kakuzu
Juugo

But on the other hand, being weaker than many Kage level characters doesn't make Mifune weak.

It's like saying that Itachi is weak because I can name 15 characters well above him.


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## Icegaze (Apr 7, 2015)

your dumb ass retarded claim was he is above 80% of the verse. clearly if i can come up with 22 off the bat that shows you are laughbly wrong 

good luck taking out kisame though. am sure u believe it. sadly nothign indicates he can 


 what the fuck. how is he takign out kakuzu. kakuzu can stand there and cant be killed by mifune. if kakuzu wanted mifune to kill him. not only does domu troll mifune entire existence. (a jutsu he used off the bat with no seals against Aoda and the other guy ) but even cutting attacks arent going to kill someoen who can stich himself back together

 ah #newbieathisbest


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 7, 2015)

Hanzo's not doing shit to Kisame.

 This is the same guy who rushed at Base Gai, a speedster, and overpowered him with sheer strength to the point where he needed to open the 6 Gates. This was the same guy who can pressure Obito with his Taijutsu. It seems odd to me that Hanzo would be able to overpower Kisame given that.

 We've also witnessed Kisame effortlessly block Base Gai which helps Kisame even more.

 We also have to consider that Samehada can parry quick attacks as shown against Killer Bee and even managed to react to V2 Bee meaning Hanzo's not touching him. That, topped off with high reflexes such as effortlessly evading V1 Bee without the help of Samehada seems to lead me to believe that Hanzo has no chance in CQC.

 Hanzo's only way is to rely on Salamander Poison IMO. Without that, he gets parried the same way Mifune was effortlessly parried by Taka Sasuke and by portrayal, Kisame > Taka Sasuke.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 7, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Hanzo's not doing shit to Kisame.
> 
> This is the same guy who rushed at Base Gai, a speedster, and overpowered him with sheer strength to the point where he needed to open the 6 Gates. This was the same guy who can pressure Obito with his Taijutsu. It seems odd to me that Hanzo would be able to overpower Kisame given that.
> 
> ...



Because Gai needed to overpower Kisame with sheer strenght, while Mifune has a cutting weapon.



Icegaze said:


> your dumb ass retarded claim was he is above 80% of the verse. clearly if i can come up with 22 off the bat that shows you are laughbly wrong
> 
> good luck taking out kisame though. am sure u believe it. sadly nothign indicates he can
> 
> ...



No, if the cast is over 110 characters and there are only 22 above him, then he is above the 80 %. 

I expected no less from you, and your post goes to my list.


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## Icegaze (Apr 7, 2015)

mifune sword cannot cut through samehada in the slightest bit. try harder alot harder. so same thing here. he overpowers mifune with just his wrist 

not only 22 you dimwit 22 off the top of my head and most definitely over 50 if i had the time to list them out. 

so if there are 111 characters you do the math. 

list up my posts. immitation is the sincerest form of flattery so thank you


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> mifune sword cannot cut through samehada in the slightest bit. try harder alot harder. so same thing here. he overpowers mifune with just his wrist
> 
> not only 22 you dimwit 22 off the top of my head and most definitely over 50 if i had the time to list them out.
> 
> ...



Mifune doesn't need to cut Samehada, Mifune iai is so fast that will cut Kisame before he can block.

Also do your list, I'll wait.


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## Icegaze (Apr 7, 2015)

ok feats of this magical cut? make things up all you want am done


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ok feats of this magical cut? make things up all you want am done



He used it on Hanzou, Hanzou who is faster than Kisame and has better kenjutsu than him.


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## Icegaze (Apr 7, 2015)

lol any proof hanzo is faster than kisame. was this mentioned anywhere? faster in water sure if u want to hold on to that but on land where are the character statements to this effect.

do note chiyo fought hanzo countless times and survived each time she made no mention of back up what so ever 
. so for all the hanzo hype. i guess that means he is chiyo level. and we have seen chiyo fight to the best of her abilities. she is low kage level at the best. 

i guess it means chiyo can take on the 3 sannin


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 7, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Because Gai needed to overpower Kisame with sheer strenght, while Mifune has a cutting weapon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 That didn't refute what I said since Kisame also has a piercing weapon. If Gai was quick enough to penetrate Kisame's defenses, then he wouldn't need sheer strength, but he wasn't, so clearly Kisame is also fairly agile and reflexive in CQC as well. 

 I find it hard to believe Mifune would have a better chance at piercing through Kisame's defenses than Bee did and even then, Bee's Kenjutsu failed and had to resort to V1, which also failed.

 Mifune's also not even that fast considering the only person that could dodge V1 Bee was V1 Raikage, with Taka Sasuke and Kisame being exceptions. With that being said, Mifune wouldn't have the sufficient speed to lolblitz Kisame or even penetrate his defenses. Hell, Taka Sasuke effortlessly parrying Mifune implies that Mifune isn't that agile yet still was reflexive enough to break through Hanzo's defenses and was quick enough to prevent him from using any ninjutsu. Considering Mifune was relatively close to Hanzo's level of strength judging by Hanzo's statement during his clash with Young Mifune, I find it hard to believe Hanzo can overpower Kisame in CQC.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 7, 2015)

Poison isn't putting Hashirama down, who's healing technique, by Madara's account exceeded the power of Tsunade's own Byakugou, a technique that allowed her to maintain homeostasis in the body and continue fighting with two large Susano blades punctured through and lodged into her torso, back and spine. A poison can do no more harm than that. 

I tend to agree if we consider Madara's healing capacity against the combined bijuu attack. Of course, he was in SM, which could increase Hashirama's healing abilities dramatically. 

We don't know much about Base Hashirama's healing abilities, but Madara did not say Hashirama's healing power was a Hermit Mode technique specifically, and if we consider the White Zetsu / Obito's vitality capabilities / healing capacities via his gene enhancement, poison that takes 3 days to kill a normal man is a joke to the original specimen of that level of vitality and life force, his genes literally bred immortality.

Prime Hanzo's power level was never determined. None of us know how powerful he was nor can any of us back up our claims with features or character quotes. That being said, the only thing we can definitely say is Chiyo admitted fighting and surviving against him during her younger years as an active combatant, considering how she handled Sasori as an elder out of combat for multiple years without a large puppet arsenal, that would probably make him mid-kage level at his strongest, which is where most truly "powerful" ninja in this verse fall into. For a man who failed to put down Yahiko's crew and could not maintain control over his own little country/pressure the larger ones, he clearly did not have power that exceeded the average Kage, if not being weaker (fuck, Part I Orochimaru nearly destroyed Konoha - that dude wasn't stronger than Mid-Kage - Hanzo did not succeed in pressuring any of the major villages despite his scorn for them that he even brought into the afterlife [Edo Tensei]).


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## Sadgoob (Apr 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Without a doubt Jiraiya believes Hanzo is stronger than the Sannin, given the language he uses [Though that was before Edo-Tensei and Byakugo Retcons]. The question is more does Nagato considering Hanzo stronger than himself, as his statement does lean that way.



Sage Jiraiya was hyped more by Nagato, and Jiraiya also believed himself more capable than prime Hanzou considering he believed he could take on Pain despite that hype.

We also know that in part one, Jiraiya claimed Minato was the greatest ninja. That said, it's believable for prime Hanzou to be at the bottom of the tier that Sage Jiraiya and Minato are within.

​


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Poison isn't putting Hashirama down, who's healing technique, by Madara's account exceeded the power of Tsunade's own Byakugou, .


Actually he did not. He believed Hashirama's Regen was better because it didn't require seals. Than Tsunade showed Byakugo and STFU'd about that. That's all that was said.



> a technique that allowed her to maintain homeostasis in the body and continue fighting with two large Susano blades punctured through and lodged into her torso, back and spine. A poison can do no more harm than that.


They are completely incomparable. Susano'o blades are physical damage. Poisons on the other hand typically works by inhibiting one process or another of ones cells, causing them to stop functioning properly. Likely given Hanzo's connection to Salamanders his poisons are a type of tetrodotoxin [the poison commonly found in Salamanders]. 

Tetrodotoxin is a neurotoxin that _"inhibits the firing of action potentials in nerves by binding to the voltage-gated sodium channels in nerve cell membranes and blocking the passage of sodium ions (responsible for the rising phase of an action potential) into the nerve cell"_

Simply put Tetrodotoxin stops nerves cells from function properly, resulting in paralysis and ultimately death [note: this also fits how Hanzo's poisons were shown to work]. With Sousou Saisei, _"the body's cell division is forcibly stimulated"_, so it causes cell reproduction. But that's meaningless when a Tetrodotoxin is in someones body, as any new cells will simply also stop functioning.

So in-fact Hanzo's poison is a solid counter to Sousou Saisei, and assuming other forms of regeneration work by the same principle [which seems like a fair assumption], all regeneration in general.



> poison that takes 3 days to kill a normal man is a joke to the original specimen of that level of vitality and life force, his genes literally bred immortality.


It's actually two days, and the dying in two days part is probably because it takes that long to stop the person from breathing. The actual paralysis is nigh instant and once someone is paralyzed and unable to fight  back, they are can be easily killed by Hanzo, regeneration or no regeneration. Hanzo slices off their head.



> That being said, the only thing we can definitely say is Chiyo admitted fighting and surviving against him during her younger years as an active combatant, considering how she handled Sasori as an elder out of combat for multiple years without a large puppet arsenal, that would probably make him mid-kage level at his strongest, which is where most truly "powerful" ninja in this verse fall into.


I'm not sure I disagree about the Mid-Kage "level" thing, but I don't think Chiyo surviving is a good means of measuring Hanzo's strength. Firstly Chiyo's strength back then unknown; she could have easily been a beast considering what she's capable off at the age: 73 [yes older than Hiruzen who suffered from age immensely]. Secondly surviving someone doesn't mean shit, look at how Ei managed to survive his encounter against Minato, having outside help from B and than Minato eventually leaving due to Konoha sounding the horn for retreat; or fuck look at how Kakuzu survived Hashirama. Thirdly, Hanzo himself was shown to deliberately allow his enemies to live, like against Mifune and the Sannin; fuck every non-fodder he fought in flashbacks he let live, before he went down the wrong path.

So unless Chiyo actually put up a good fight against Hanzo, which the manga does not state is the case, her surviving doesn't give us much of anything to go off of.



> For a man who failed to put down Yahiko's crew and could not maintain control over his own little country/pressure the larger ones, he clearly did not have power that exceeded the average Kage, if not being weaker (fuck, Part I Orochimaru nearly destroyed Konoha - that dude wasn't stronger than Mid-Kage - Hanzo did not succeed in pressuring any of the major villages despite his scorn for them that he even brought into the afterlife [Edo Tensei]).


The implication is that Hanzo had already declined by then. And actually Hanzo did succeed in bringing down Yahiko's crew. His machinations killed their leader and Akatsuki as Yahiko had created it was no more. Sure Nagato later founded the Akatsuki we'd later come to know in the manga cannon with the help of Obito, but for all intents and purposes Hanzo decimated Yahiko's old crew.



Strategoob said:


> Sage Jiraiya was hyped more by Nagato,​


In what way?



> and Jiraiya also believed himself more capable than prime Hanzou considering he believed he could take on Pain despite that hype.


That's actually not what happened. Jiraiya never intended to face Pain, he was trying to get information. Only when Pain appeared before and forced his hand did he fight. Additionally Jiriaya was very clear about the fact that he did not believe the Amegakuru-Shinobi that a single person defeated Hanzo. So it's not like he believed Pain was stronger than Hanzo, and than still went to fight him, because he thought he was also stronger than Hanzo. That wasn't his mindset at all.



> We also know that in part one, Jiraiya claimed Minato was the greatest ninja.


Nope that was about talent, not strength.



Icegaze said:


> lol any proof hanzo is faster than kisame. was this mentioned anywhere? faster in water sure if u want to hold on to that but on land where are the character statements to this effect.
> 
> do note chiyo fought hanzo countless times and survived each time she made no mention of back up what so ever
> . so for all the hanzo hype. i guess that means he is chiyo level. and we have seen chiyo fight to the best of her abilities. she is low kage level at the best.
> ...



And do prey tell what is Chiyo "level". The Chiyo your referring to as Low-Kage, was a 73 year old Chiyo after years of retirement. The Chiyo who fought Hanzo was in her Prime. So please do prove how strong Prime-Chiyo is.

Not that Chiyo surviving Hanzo is anymore valid of a comparison than Kakuzu surviving Hashirama, but fuck I just want to see how you could possible be evaluating Chiyo's strength from back then



NarutoX28 said:


> That didn't refute what I said since Kisame also has a piercing weapon. If Gai was quick enough to penetrate Kisame's defenses, then he wouldn't need sheer strength, but he wasn't, so clearly Kisame is also fairly agile and reflexive in CQC as well.


Gai completely outplayed Kisame to the extent of stealing his blade away from him:
open her mouth

So Gai was very clearly well above Kisame in speed and taijutsu skill. This is also reflected quite clearly in the DB; Gai's speed and taijutsu are 5s, while Kisame's speed is 4 and his Taijutsu is a 4.5.

The scene your referring to when Kisame smash Gai under-water, the events leading up to that were off paneled, so Kisame could have used Ninjutsu or Gai may have simply underestimate Kisame's raw strength. Ether way it doesn't change the facts that Gai is much better than Kisam in Taijutsu/Speed.



> I find it hard to believe Mifune would have a better chance at piercing through Kisame's defenses than Bee did and even then, Bee's Kenjutsu failed and had to resort to V1, which also failed.


Base-B hit Kisame with a sword in his opening Gambit. And I actually do not think it would be surprising at all for Mifune to be more skilled in Kenjutsu than a B who lacks his full 7-Swords and therefore can't use his signature acrobat style. Again Mifune is the greatest of all Samurai and this is a people that live and breath Kenjutsu. Not only that but his IAI slash speed is famous throughout the entire world to the extent that people believe no one can get seals off against him. The only other people with world famous speed are characters like the Raikages, Minato, and Tobirama. The DB also hypes Mifune's slashes to be light-speed, again the only techs given that degree of hyperoblic hype are some of the fasts techs in the manga.

Simply put, the greatest Samurai whose world famous for his Kenjutsu, being better at Kenjutsu than a handicapped B, is much more plausible than your making it sound.



> Mifune's also not even that fast considering the only person that could dodge V1 Bee was V1 Raikage, with Taka Sasuke and Kisame being exceptions.


Why is Taka Sasuke an exception? But anyway, Nether Hanzo or Mifune need to be as fast as V1-B. If they have a poisoned weapon, they only need to be as fast as Base-B, to be capable of defeating Kisame in the first few seconds of the match, because the moment Kisame is hit by Base-B's sword, that's GG if that weapon is poisoned. 

No one needs to completely outclass Kisame in speed, they just need to scratch him.



> Hell, Taka Sasuke effortlessly parrying Mifune implies


No part of that was portrayed to be effortless. Sasuke only managed to block Mifune's slash a few inches before it took his head off, to which Mifune only remarked "not-bad". Mifune than cut the curtains causing Sasuke to fall down, while he made a graceful landing:
open her mouth

Mifune quite clearly came out of that exchange looking better than Sasuke.



> Considering Mifune was relatively close to Hanzo's level of strength judging by Hanzo's statement during his clash with Young Mifune


But your mistaken about this. See my other post.



> I find it hard to believe Hanzo can overpower Kisame in CQC.


He doesn't have to overpower him, he just needs to land a scratch. There's a huge difference.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

@Turrin  are you trying to hype chiyo whose basic tactic against any uchiha was to turn tail and run or have back up? seriously ?  

also did chiyo say she was out of shape and had lost her faith or abilities no she didnt. i go by what was shown and chiyo could barely take on Mei. thats where hanzo is sadly for you and and him. chiyo level is low level of the good she is the runt of the good bunch.

when the likes of kakuzu can low diff you. you really arent all that much

the kakuzu hashirama comparison isnt at all the same thing. one thing kakuzu fought hashirama once and nearly died. chiyo fought hanzo *COUNTLESS!!! TIMES* knew how long his summon took to cough out poison and even had antidotes so no!! you are wrong and i am right

kakuzu and hashirama were never implied to have fought more than once or was kakuzu makign it sound like they are old rivals. unlike chiyo wont pretty much gave all info on hanzo which she gathered through her years of fighting him equally without him managing to kill her 

Again if you are going to use her age. onoki was stronger during the war than he was at his prime.  
chiyo never indicated she had gotten weaker. if anything she made more modifications to her body and her puppets


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## Turrin (Apr 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Turrin  are you trying to hype chiyo whose basic tactic against any uchiha was to turn tail and run or have back up? seriously ?


So according to you Gaiden-Obito > Chiyo = Low-Kage :

Because any Uchiha is better than Chiyo, rather than the statement being in context of the enemy they were facing; Itachi.

Yeah I'm done here, have fun with your fanfic view of the series


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That didn't refute what I said since Kisame also has a piercing weapon. If Gai was quick enough to penetrate Kisame's defenses, then he wouldn't need sheer strength, but he wasn't, so clearly Kisame is also fairly agile and reflexive in CQC as well.
> 
> I find it hard to believe Mifune would have a better chance at piercing through Kisame's defenses than Bee did and even then, Bee's Kenjutsu failed and had to resort to V1, which also failed.
> 
> Mifune's also not even that fast considering the only person that could dodge V1 Bee was V1 Raikage, with Taka Sasuke and Kisame being exceptions. With that being said, Mifune wouldn't have the sufficient speed to lolblitz Kisame or even penetrate his defenses. Hell, Taka Sasuke effortlessly parrying Mifune implies that Mifune isn't that agile yet still was reflexive enough to break through Hanzo's defenses and was quick enough to prevent him from using any ninjutsu. Considering Mifune was relatively close to Hanzo's level of strength judging by Hanzo's statement during his clash with Young Mifune, I find it hard to believe Hanzo can overpower Kisame in CQC.



You are wrong in almost everything. Gai did penetrate Kisame's defense the second time they saw each other, but Gai had to be careful with his team's safety and couldn't finish him fast enough.

After that Kisame learnt to keep his distance from Gai.

Then Bee did penetrate Kisame's defense and couldn't dodge his attacks, he just regenerated from them.

Mifune would penetrate Kisame's defense, but he won't use piercing attacks like Bee or explosive attacks like Gai, he'll cut Kisame. Then Kisame will regenerate.

In Hanzo's case a single little cut is game over for Kisame.



Icegaze said:


> when the likes of kakuzu can low diff you. you really arent all that much



Luckily prime Hanzou would low diff Kakuzu


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

Turrin said:


> So according to you Gaiden-Obito > Chiyo = Low-Kage :
> 
> Because any Uchiha is better than Chiyo, rather than the statement being in context of the enemy they were facing; Itachi.
> 
> Yeah I'm done here, have fun with your fanfic view of the series



ok so then you are hyping someone whose basic tactic against itachi without MS is to flee. 
seriously?? even kakuzu wont flee against non Ms itachi. kakuzu !!! 
please if all u gotta do is bitch then find something else to do 

cuz hanzo and chiyo were implied to be on par and from chiyo showings she is horribly far from impressive and all akatsuki bar hidan low diff her. some neg diff


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ok so then you are hyping someone whose basic tactic against itachi without MS is to flee.
> seriously?? even kakuzu wont flee against non Ms itachi. kakuzu !!!
> please if all u gotta do is bitch then find something else to do
> 
> cuz hanzo and chiyo were implied to be on par and from chiyo showings she is horribly far from impressive and all akatsuki bar hidan low diff her. some neg diff



No, Chiyo was implied and showed to be below Hanzou.

And Chiyo was shown not to be that apart from Sasori, who is a lot more powerful than Kakuzu.

Chiyo<Sasori
Chiyo<Hanzou
Kakuzu<Sasori


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> No, Chiyo was implied and showed to be below Hanzou.
> 
> And Chiyo was shown not to be that apart from Sasori, who is a lot more powerful than Kakuzu.
> 
> ...



i guess thats why she fought hanzo countless time and pretty much knew everything she needed to know about his summon and even had antidotes to his poison. yh sure she was below. i guess thats why hanzo couldnt kill her 

the last bit is just dumb. hanzo cannot kill or hurt kakuzu poison or not. domu walks up to him and kills him. neg diff. kakuzu hearts dont breathe. good luck hanzo. but then again ur wank has u imagine his hearts have lungs all of a sudden right


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i guess thats why she fought hanzo countless time and pretty much knew everything she needed to know about his summon and even had antidotes to his poison. yh sure she was below. i guess thats why hanzo couldnt kill her
> 
> the last bit is just dumb. hanzo cannot kill or hurt kakuzu poison or not. domu walks up to him and kills him. neg diff. kakuzu hearts dont breathe. good luck hanzo. but then again ur wank has u imagine his hearts have lungs all of a sudden right



Countless times? Show me where was that stated.



If Kakuzu breaths even a little bit of Hanzou's poison he dies. Unless you really think that Kakuzu doesn't need to breath at all


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

go back and read the manga. she gave the alliance info on hanzo. she mentions they fought countless times. if u dont even know that then why are you arguing. Turrin didnt dispute that yet an idiotic newb like u thinks he can?

again kakuzu being poisoned will take him 2 days 2 die. kakuzu 4 other hearts dont need to breathe. how kakuzu looses when he got 4 lives immune to hanzo entire arsenal is beyond me


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> go back and read the manga. she gave the alliance info on hanzo. she mentions they fought countless times. if u dont even know that then why are you arguing. Turrin didnt dispute that yet an idiotic newb like u thinks he can?
> 
> again kakuzu being poisoned will take him 2 days 2 die. kakuzu 4 other hearts dont need to breathe. how kakuzu looses when he got 4 lives immune to hanzo entire arsenal is beyond me



She gave the alliance some info of Hanzou. That's true.

She fought him countless times. This is you being a lier.

How many fallacies must you write before releasing that you don't know what you are talking about and concede?

No, my dear and poor little boy, having more hearts won't help him to survive much longer, that's not how poison works.

You should go back to school It seems.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

look very closely at this panel. then jump off a bridge head first
pressure and shock from just moving in the Chuunin exams

used to battle it all the time. unless u want to then say hanzo summons ibuse then runs away. 
battle it all the time. 

school wont help u. find a bridge. remember head first


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> look very closely at this panel. then jump off a bridge head first
> pressure and shock from just moving in the Chuunin exams
> 
> used to battle it all the time. unless u want to then say hanzo summons ibuse then runs away.
> ...



When you are right, you are right. Here you have your star my little boy:


They used to battle a lot, but the hype of Hanzo>the hype of Chiyo

That statement only hypes Chiyo if anything.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

so i take it you butthurt and you concede. 
loosing sucks, i would feel your pain but am not used to such


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so i take it you butthurt and you concede.
> loosing sucks, i would feel your pain but am not used to such



You are a bad looser. 

Your point is that as Chiyo fought Hanzou he is weak. Which is stupid as Chiyo herself is Kage level and stronger than Hidan, or even Mei.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

but chiyo is weak, being unable to 1 shot or troll chiyo makes him weak. so sorry butthurt looser. she cant even beat sasori who is just at best mid kage level. 
every akatsuki member bar hidan can low to neg diff chiyo. 
worse if they are put on a clock they can all win in under a minute


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> but chiyo is weak, being unable to 1 shot or troll chiyo makes him weak. so sorry butthurt looser. she cant even beat sasori who is just at best mid kage level.
> every akatsuki member bar hidan can low to neg diff chiyo.
> worse if they are put on a clock they can all win in under a minute



Chiyo is weak, It's just that most of the characters are weaker than her. Mei is weaker than her for example.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

mei can be weaker if u want i dont care. but i dont see the point to hype someone who can be beat by kakuzu in under a minute. or itachi 

whats the point hyping low kage level. they are the runt of the good bunch


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

Chiyo surviving many battles with Hanzou =/= Chiyo being as powerful as Hanzou.

Genin Naruto survived many battles against dudes that were many tiers above him.

Kakuzu is a low Kage level himself.

Hanzou can beat low Kage levels characters and some mid Kage level characters.


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## Turrin (Apr 8, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> When you are right, you are right. Here you have your star my little boy:
> .


Nah he's not right. What it actually says is that Chiyo fought the Salamander multiple times. But in Icegaze's defense someone whose fought against Naruto's Toads must be equivalent to EOS-Naruto 



> That statement only hypes Chiyo if anything.


The statement is pointless. Ei actually fought against Minato, and not his summon multiple times, but he was still greatly outclassed by Minato. Some of the current alliance members could claim they fought Madara multiple times as well. It just doesn't prove anything unless Chiyo put up a good fight against Hanzo 1v1, which isn't stated anywhere, and actually you'd expect a Medical Ninja like her to be part of a team. 

Though I do agree with you that Icegaze criminally underrates Chiyo, as he believes any Uchiha in existence can beat her 1v1, which is just laughable, and refuses to believe at 73 Years Old and retired she is any lesser in strength than at the height of her career, which is even more laughable.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

@turrin 
so chiyo just decided to go find hanzo summon to pick on it. or maybe hanzo summon was just wondering about the place


its obvious if she fought it its because she was fighting hanzo. notice hanzo lack of surprise about her knowledge on his abilities. but yh sure troll why dont u. i am dissapointed. i expect that from lesser posters


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @turrin
> so chiyo just decided to go find hanzo summon to pick on it. or maybe hanzo summon was just wondering about the place
> 
> 
> its obvious if she fought it its because she was fighting hanzo. notice hanzo lack of surprise about her knowledge on his abilities. but yh sure troll why dont u. i am dissapointed. i expect that from lesser posters



Or maybe she was part of an squad and she only had to fight his summon while the rest of the team fought Hanzou.

The 1 vs 1 battles are rare in wars.

For example Hanzou solo'd not only the sannins, but a whole team of Konoha among with the sannin were the most powerful ones.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

she said ive fought not (me and my back up squad) i have fought him countless times. not a few times 
countless. same way she said her and tsunade used to fight alot 

so am good with hanzo hype and all but chiyo at her best showed what she was capable of. and she wont even be able to beat Mei. i mean Mei. thats like as weak as it gets when it comes to kage level ninja


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> she said ive fought not (me and my back up squad) i have fought him countless times. not a few times
> countless. same way she said her and tsunade used to fight alot
> 
> so am good with hanzo hype and all but chiyo at her best showed what she was capable of. and she wont even be able to beat Mei. i mean Mei. thats like as weak as it gets when it comes to kage level ninja



So said Oonoki about Madara, and we saw that he fought him with Muu.
So said A and we saw that he fought Minato along with a team.



So 73 years old Chiyo was at her prime? 

Old Chiyo > Mei

Show me the battle between Chiyo and Hanzou or concede.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

onoki never said he fought madara countless times. not once
73 year old chiyo wasnt clearly stated to be weaker so yes. kishi didnt say she was weaker therefore she wasnt

show me the battle between hanzo and chiyo where hanzo mops the floor with her. if not u concede 

show me the scan where young jiriaya used sage mode, or could even use rasengan against hanzo. if not u concede

u see how that works?


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

LOL 

So as no one said that Chiyo wasn't at her prime with 73 years, then she must be. That an awful logic. 

No one said that the Sannin weren't at their prime against Hanzou, so they must be at their prime. See I can do it too.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

orochimaru clearly said tsunade was improving her abilities and learning new techniques in part 1 durign the sannin show down several years later

orochimaru learnt immortality spell after that war 

jiriaya learnt rasengan after most likely. since during that war minato would have been a child or not even born and we know minato taught jiriaya rasengan

so no u cant do it to because u do not know the manga

chiyo wasnt implied or stated to be weaker. so no reason to believe she was


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

And Chiyo said that she couldn't move as fast as when she was young when she was stopped by Naruto when they first meet.

And prove Jiraiya didn't know the rasengan already.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

minato wasnt born
minato taught jiraiya rasengan 

fair enough chiyo was slower. scan of that 

how faster puppets would move her up the ranks i dont know. even if her puppets had Ei speed .kakuzu can stand there and rape the granny


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## Turrin (Apr 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @turrin
> so chiyo just decided to go find hanzo summon to pick on it. or maybe hanzo summon was just wondering about the place
> 
> 
> its obvious if she fought it its because she was fighting hanzo. notice hanzo lack of surprise about her knowledge on his abilities. but yh sure troll why dont u. i am dissapointed. i expect that from lesser posters



Chiyo is Sunagakuru's medical specialist. It's not at all surprising that she'd be moving together as a team, especially in war-settings [how many 1v1s did we get in the 4th War?]. It's also not surprising that she'd be specifically called in to deal with Ibusei, due to her medical experitise aiding her in dealing with it's poison gas. Simply put, as Sungakuru's medical specialist, she was called in on multiple occasion to deal with a poisonous salamander; that's all the text indicates.

I'm not saying she didn't ever throw an attack Hanzo's way or never helped to defend an attack from Hanzo. But the idea that she was Hanzo's rival, that was competing with him 1v1 on multiple occasions, is fanfiction.


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## Turrin (Apr 8, 2015)

Here's some translations I did prudent to Chiyo's Age and Retirement effecting her abilities.

Chiyo, "[We are] Old books that are kept placed on a high shelf and bound together"
"how are we up to the task now"

Chiyo, "o, if that's the case I may still be able to do something even as an old fool"

Sasori, "hmm.. your still able to give me problems, despite being an old bag near death and in the midst of retirement."

Chiyo, "I'll get off my backside even despite being near death and retired"

I don't know what to say beyond that.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> minato wasnt born
> minato taught jiraiya rasengan
> 
> fair enough chiyo was slower. scan of that
> ...



Minato is older than Nagato 

The history of Jiraiya:
-He trains with Hiruzen and the sannin
-At some point he goes to make the sage training
-Jiraiya hears the profecy of the great sage
-He trains Minato
-He goes to the war and gets defeated by Hanzou
-He trains Nagato
-He goes back to the village
-Minato bcomes Hokage and Jiraiya fights Orochimaru
-Jiraiya goes after Orochimaru and travels the world.

For the time he fought Hanzou he already had started his sage training and was able to summon toads like Gamabunta.

If you are so sure than Kakuzu can defeat Chiyo why don't you make the thread instead of crying outloud?


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 8, 2015)

Jiraiya also said that HE fought Hanzou, when It was really a team of many  shinobis of Konoha who fought Hanzou.

Chiyo's movement speed affects her puppets speed and you may not know it but the ninjas in this manga lose stamina and chakra when they get old....


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## FlamingRain (Apr 8, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> The history of Jiraiya:
> -He trains with Hiruzen and the sannin
> -At some point he goes to make the sage training
> -Jiraiya hears the profecy of the great sage
> ...



Jiraiya wore the red lines on his face down past his jaw by the time he became Minato's sensei, but he still wore them at the upper half of his checks when he fought Hanzō.

If that's not enough: Dan died at 27 years old. Assuming Tsunade isn't a cougar, that means the Second Great Ninja War took place at least 23 years before Part 1, where Minato would have been 36 had he kept living up to that point.

So, Tsunade _retired_ (obviously _well after_ the fight with Hanzo) when Minato was only 13. Minato only became a ninja at _10_, and it took him a total of _3 years_ to develop the Rasengan, which he only got the idea for once he had observed a Bijūdama, meaning that in all likelihood he was already past 13 when he got it (unless you think he fought on the same battlefield as a Tailed Beast as soon as he got out of the academy) and Jiraiya could have only picked it up _even after that_. So it's still _extremely unlikely_ that Jiraiya had the Rasengan by the time he fought Hanzō.

It's also worth noting that the Great Toad Sage said Jiraiya would _become_ a shinobi of incredible talent, as if he wasn't one by the time he heard the prophecy. If he had actually even begun his training in the sage arts, he may not have yet become _proficient_ with Senjutsu by the time of the Hanzō fight. He's in _base_ in the flashback with Fukasaku and Shima nowhere to be seen, and in their situation I think he would have used Sage Mode if he knew how to back then (might also be worth considering that Nagato initially didn't recognize Sage Mode either despite spending a few years with Jiraiya).


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2015)

@Flamming imma rep you for takign the time to have him suck on it
thanks
seriously his  trolling was exhausting me


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## Turrin (Apr 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> chiyo said *I FOUGHT IT!!! I FOUGHT IT* not we.
> .


Just like Ei said he fought Minato. Despite the fact that we very clearly saw B aiding him in said fight? Or how it's stated that Sasuke defeated Zabuza, even though Team 7 in general took on Zabuza, and in-fact Kakashi did most of the defeating himself?

But I digress, because in the actual japanese the world "I" is never used in the first place.




> she said she fought it countless times but u believe hanzo was else where sipping tea?


No he was probably fighting off other Shinobi.



> again if hanzo was all he is hyped to be, kishi wont even mention chiyo in the same text as hanzo


I guess Hashirama is shit level two because he clashed against Kakuzu 



> considering her suggested tactic against itachi


You do realize right before that statement Chiyo said there were several different tactics to use against Sharingan, and she was merely quoting one tactic, which was prudent to the situation they were in; 4v1.

But it's hardly surprising that Itachi is not someone that Chiyo, a woman who self professed near death, could not handle alone.



> fair enough turrin. chiyo was weaker. ill give you that if you want. now do explain how much stronger do you think she might have been using puppets who dont even have a KKG to fight actual top tiers.


Chiyo was reacting to and defending the strongest Kazekage's Iron-Sand, which was called the greatest weapon in Sungakuru, and managing to beat back and defend dozens of puppets at one time, while "retired and near death". She was the one to sealed Shukaku into it's various Jinchuuriki. She was probably at least close to Sannin "level" [pre edo-tensei and byakugo retcons]; though we we'll never know for sure as we lack any direct statement of her strength.



> regardless of her physical shape she isnt moving up the ranks. now if u want to say ah she must have better jutsu let me stop you there and say her best jutsu is the 10 puppets. she said so herself, and she didnt imply to have any better in store.


The idea that physical stats increasing can't move someone up the ranks makes no sense. Chiyo's puppets are dangerous because they have a number of one shots, between poisoned weapons, chakra-sealers, and Fuuinjutsu; so the quicker Chiyo can execute these techniques [which comes down to speed] all the more dangerous she becomes. Also Chiyo does not need Ninjutsu stronger than 10-Puppets to be more effective with greaters stamina. Here's a hypothetical example; if with more stamina Chiyo could use Kage-Bushin freely, than suddenly she is able to control even more puppets at any given time, which makes her much more dangerous. That's just one example.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 9, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Jiraiya wore the red lines on his face down past his jaw by the time he became Minato's sensei, but he still wore them at the upper half of his checks when he fought Hanzō.
> 
> If that's not enough: Dan died at 27 years old. Assuming Tsunade isn't a cougar, that means the Second Great Ninja War took place at least 23 years before Part 1, where Minato would have been 36 had he kept living up to that point.
> 
> ...




I'll make it even easier for you:
Nagato died with 35 years
Minato died with 25 years

So Nagato would be 20-19 years old when Minato died.

Nagato was trained by Jiraiya when Nagato was around 11-12 years old, so when Minato was 15-16 years old.

So unless you think that Jiraiya trainned Minato when he was 14-15 years old, he should have trainned Minato first.

Also, even easier: Jiraiya when about to die remembered the profecy and thought that his first candidate for the child of the profecy was Minato, later Nagato.

For the time he fought Hanzou, Nagato was at least 11 years old and Minato 15-16 years old, and for that time Jiraiya had already went to Myobokuzan and begun his sage training even if he wasn't a proper Sage yet, he was already more than just a jounin level shinobi.


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## Icegaze (Apr 9, 2015)

Nagato was called jiriaya first student try alot harder
i mean alot harder


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 9, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Nagato was called jiriaya first student try alot harder
> i mean alot harder



Called by who, by you, my little princess?

Nagato is 5 years younger than Minato my little boy, that's fact.


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## Icegaze (Apr 9, 2015)

..how about u create a library thread. ask around. 

he really isnt older than nagato in anyway shape or form. jiraiya first student was nagato. who he believed to be the child of prophecy when minato came about it was minato who was the child of prophecy 

anywayz troll kid ask the likes of Turrin or any much better informed poster. cuz u are painfully uninformed


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 9, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ..how about u create a library thread. ask around.
> 
> he really isnt older than nagato in anyway shape or form. jiraiya first student was nagato. who he believed to be the child of prophecy when minato came about it was minato who was the child of prophecy
> 
> anywayz troll kid ask the likes of Turrin or any much better informed poster. cuz u are painfully uninformed





Minato died when he was 25 years old.
16 years later Nagato died when he was 35 old.

That's from the databook. You can check if you want.

Anyway math isn't your forte, as you have proven already.


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## Thunder (Apr 9, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so a terrible example then. also how do u determine that kage bunshin is a less jutsu than 10 puppets?



Not to butt in here, but this caught my eye.

Shirohigi:  Jikki Chikamatsu no Shū is S-rank. While Kage Bunshin is B-rank. Rank mainly equates to acquisition difficulty, yes, but you're going to notice a correlation between rank  and power when observing jutsu of the highest tier (S-rank). Just look at the S-rank jutsu in  the manga. All are of a higher class than others and it's pretty  noticeable too.

Aside from that, it should be obvious Kage Bunshin (a _supplementary_ jutsu that many shinobi have accesses to) is "lesser" than the strongest puppet technique in the manga.


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## Icegaze (Apr 9, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Not to butt in here, but this caught my eye.
> 
> Shirohigi:  Jikki Chikamatsu no Shū is S-rank. While Kage Bunshin is B-rank. Rank mainly equates to acquisition difficulty, yes, but you're going to notice a correlation between rank  and power when observing jutsu of the highest tier (S-rank). Just look at the S-rank jutsu in  the manga. All are of a higher class than others and it's pretty  noticeable too.
> 
> Aside from that, it should be obvious Kage Bunshin (a _supplementary_ jutsu that many shinobi have accesses to) is "lesser" than the strongest puppet technique in the manga.



ah thunder missed u lol cant lie. 

i entirely agree. was digging at turrin who likes to post saying things like your wrong am right 

yes its a lesser jutsu i know that. 

however, the implication that a puppet user will suddenly move up the ranks due to more stamina is absurd. kankuro with bijuu level chakra with the same puppets isnt goign to get any stronger using those puppets. if u know what i mean 

puppet jutsu hardly relies on stamina to begin with. 

Also note chiyo modified her body, we dont know when but by sasori surprised must have been after he left suna. chiyo never said when she fought hanzo but i doubt she had body modifications like that already in place

also if onoki is anything to go by getting older doesnt mean a ninja necessarily getting weaker. I mean onoki even got faster. 

a more experienced puppet user will be stronger, considering puppet user dont rely on cqc or chakra much. 

However an older ninja who uses taijutsu will get weaker with age eventually


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 9, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ah thunder missed u lol cant lie.
> 
> i entirely agree. was digging at turrin who likes to post saying things like your wrong am right
> 
> ...





Chakra is use for more than just use nature nijutsus. Chiyo moved the puppets faster, she had more durability, the jutsus the puppet used were bigger and more powerful, and Chiyo herself was faster.

The proof that chakra does a lot more than what you think is that the alliance became relevant when Naruto gave them chakra.


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## Icegaze (Apr 9, 2015)

chiyo physically strongest puppet uses no chakra
the girl with the sword no chakra
the blue faced guy no chakra
3 of them with the vacuum attack use chakra granted
the double combo red and white faced use chakra
the sealing jutsu puppet uses no chakra 

so most likely 2 of her shown attacks would have been stronger. fair enough but strong enough to move her up the ranks? despite how class canon puppets are i doubt it


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 9, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> chiyo physically strongest puppet uses no chakra
> the girl with the sword no chakra
> the blue faced guy no chakra
> 3 of them with the vacuum attack use chakra granted
> ...



In fact the sealing puppet needs chakra undo the seal.

And to use and move the puppets Chiyo uses chakra.

And to use her medical jutsus she needs chakra.

Shunshin uses chakra.


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## Thunder (Apr 9, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ah thunder missed u lol cant lie.



I'm still around. I just post sporadically these days. 



> i entirely agree. was digging at turrin who likes to post saying things like your wrong am right
> 
> yes its a lesser jutsu i know that.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you and Turrin are arguing about here as I only read the first couple of pages.

Well, chakra itself is still an important component here. All puppet techniques seem to be Ninjutsu. Sasori, Kankurō, and Chiyo all have high Ninjutsu stats (4's and 5's). Same with stamina (4's and 5's minus Chiyo who is old, her stamina was probably better when she was in her prime), so stamina may be more important to the puppet styles than we think.

But then again, Chiyo kept up with Sasori just fine despite her low stamina stat. So I don't know. It was a pretty long fight.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 9, 2015)

Thunder said:


> I'm still around. I just post sporadically these days.
> 
> I'm not sure what you and Turrin are arguing about here as I only read the first couple of pages.
> 
> ...




That just shows how much powerful prime Chiyo would be.


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## Thunder (Apr 9, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> That just shows how much powerful prime Chiyo would be.



Well, aside from rare cases like Danzō who acquired more power in his old age then he could ever hope to achieve in his "prime" state thanks to bodily modifications, most shinobi in their sixities and seventies will be weaker than their younger selves. That goes without saying.

While older shinobi (the Sannin are good examples) can continue to learn new jutsu and improve well into their fifties, eventually there comes a time when the body can't keep up anymore. Hiruzen was around the same age as Chiyo when he died, and there were noticeable signs Hiruzen's age just got the better of him over time. His chakra levels took a dive along with his physical stats, it seems.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 9, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Well, aside from rare cases like Danzō who acquired more power in his old age then he could ever hope to achieve in his "prime" state thanks to bodily modifications, most shinobi in their sixities and seventies will be weaker than their younger selves. That goes without saying.
> 
> While older shinobi (the Sannin are good examples) can continue to learn new jutsu and improve well into their fifties, eventually there comes a time when the body can't keep up anymore. Hiruzen was around the same age as Chiyo when he died, and there were noticeable signs Hiruzen's age just got the better of him over time. His chakra levels took a dive along with his physical stats, it seems.




Chakra is a form of life force. Old ninjas can learn more and use better jutsu in a more efficient way, but in the end they will be way weaker.

The Chiyo we saw was a shadow of her prime. That's obvious, as It is that she was a solid mid (high) Kage level when she was at her prime.


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## Icegaze (Apr 9, 2015)

Thunder said:


> I'm still around. I just post sporadically these days.



am way more active than i need to be 



> I'm not sure what you and Turrin are arguing about here as I only read the first couple of pages.



hanzo hype. which translates to mifune hype. despite hanzo and chiyo fighting multiple times and chiyo not being killed



> Well, chakra itself is still an important component here. All puppet techniques seem to be Ninjutsu. Sasori, Kankurō, and Chiyo all have high Ninjutsu stats (4's and 5's). Same with stamina (4's and 5's minus Chiyo who is old, her stamina was probably better when she was in her prime), so stamina may be more important to the puppet styles than we think.



i understand however. chakra strings hardly consume alot of chakra. do u think kankuro abilities would improve if he had more stamina. he uses traps. not like stamina= new traps



> But then again, Chiyo kept up with Sasori just fine despite her low stamina stat. So I don't know. It was a pretty long fight.


[/QUOTE]

she did. so she couldnt have been that much weaker. or at least sasori could have been like how can u fight for so long despite ur age bla bla and all that. at least i feel her performance wasnt far beneath what she could have been in her prime. seeing how she fights.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 9, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> I'll make it even easier for you:
> Nagato died with 35 years
> Minato died with 25 years
> 
> So unless you think that Jiraiya trainned Minato when he was 14-15 years old, he should have trainned Minato first.



It really just goes to show how Kishimoto doesn't understand his own timelines.

This page _(1)_ doesn't make any sense if Nagato wasn't his student before Minato, because everyone saw Minato alongside Jiraiya in Naruto during the Invasion of Pain. It also seems suspicious that Jiraiya's facial markings shrink back up his cheeks for the fight with Hanzō before extending past his jaws again.

But let's go with Minato being taught first just so I can point out why _it wouldn't even matter_.

Nagato was only 6 or 7 when Jiraiya met him (because Jiraiya said Nagato'd mastered every Jutsu he'd taught him by the age of 10- and once he was done teaching he left, which amounted to about three years), so with Minato only graduating at 10 there _still_ wouldn't be enough time for him to have completed the Rasengan prior to the fight with Hanzo, let alone for him to have shown it to Jiraiya, and that is, again, gratuitously assuming that he started developing it _as soon as he got out of the academy_. For all we know Minato didn't even think of that technique until after the Second Great Ninja War was _over_.



> Also, even easier: Jiraiya when about to die remembered the profecy and thought that his first candidate for the child of the profecy was Minato, later Nagato.



Hah? When Jiraiya was about to die he remembered how Kushina and Minato named Naruto and figured that he was the child of prophecy. I don't remember where he said he thought it was Minato and then Nagato.

During the Nine Tails's attack on Konoha Minato recalls Jiraiya suggesting that he might be the child of prophecy, but just comparing his height to Jiraiya's Minato is a grown man in that flashback. Jiraiya may have already heard rumors about the Ame orphans dying and decided that it had to be someone other than Nagato.



> For the time he fought Hanzou, Nagato was at least 11 years old and Minato 15-16 years old, and for that time Jiraiya had already went to Myobokuzan and begun his sage training even if he wasn't a proper Sage yet, he was already more than just a jounin level shinobi.



Going to Myōbokuzan doesn't necessarily mean that he started his Sage training already, and if he was more than a Jōnin level shinobi I'd have to wonder why he _wasn't already considered a shinobi of incredible talent in that flashback with the Great Toad Sage_.

And again, we can already see for ourselves that he _wasn't_ in Sage Mode in his own recollection of the Hanzo fight. So he doesn't seem to have used his Senjutsu and we know he couldn't have had the Rasengan yet.

We have no reason whatsoever to believe that a single one of the Sannin that fought Hanzō was anywhere near as dangerous as the legendary ninja that we know now. They became famous from all their exploits _following their confrontation with him_, not _because of_ their confrontation with him.


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## Thunder (Apr 9, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Chakra is a form of life force. Old ninjas can learn more and use better jutsu in a more efficient way, but in the end they will be way weaker.



That's more or less what I said, yes. 




> The Chiyo we saw was a shadow of her prime. That's obvious, as It is that she was a solid mid (high) Kage level when she was at her prime.


Agreed.




Icegaze said:


> am way more active than i need to be
> 
> 
> 
> hanzo hype. which translates to mifune hype. despite hanzo and chiyo fighting multiple times and chiyo not being killed



There are multiple instances where weaker shinobi have fought stronger shinobi and survived, for whatever reason. I do agree that the author wouldn't have mentioned how Chiyo fought Hanzō many times if he wasn't trying to hype Chiyo, there. 



> i understand however. chakra strings hardly consume alot of chakra. do u think kankuro abilities would improve if he had more stamina. he uses traps. not like stamina= new traps


It's not just the puppet strings that consume chakra. _All_ of Kankurō's "Black Secret Techniques" are Ninjutsu, all of Sasori's "Red Secret Techniques" are all Ninjutsu, and all of Chiyo's "White Secret Techniques" are Ninjutsu. 

Which explains why the three puppet users all have high Ninjutsu stats: it's important to their fighting styles. An increase of chakra would make these traps better somehow, I suspect.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 9, 2015)

Of course Kankoru would be more powerful with more chakra.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 9, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> .



Going to Myobokuzan does imply that he has at least started his sage training. He obviously didn't go for the food.

And the marks on Jiraiya's cheek can be the mistake, because the rest of the time line does make sense.

He may not know the rasengan when he fought Hanzou, but he could summon Bunta and he had started his sage training. And he was known, if not before fighting Hanzou, yes after that, Hanzou made Jiraiya famous and named him as one of the Sannin.


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> They became famous from all their exploits _following their confrontation with him_, not _because of_ their confrontation with him.



Hanzo gave them the title _"Legendary Three Ninja,"_ yet they weren't famous?

Not very legendary I guess.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 9, 2015)

_This is what Hanzō said._

Where do you see the word "legendary", Rocky?



Zuhaitz said:


> Going to Myobokuzan does imply that he has at least started his sage training. He obviously didn't go for the food.



Why exactly?

Jiraiya wasn't just given the scroll with the contract on it like Naruto was, he had to actually go and _find_ Mount Myōboku itself himself. Who's to say he didn't simply decide to explore for a bit before making the three month trip to the Leaf as soon as he signed his name on a piece of paper?



> And the marks on Jiraiya's cheek can be the mistake, because the rest of the time line does make sense.



No it doesn't.



> And he was known, if not before fighting Hanzou, yes after that, Hanzou made Jiraiya famous and named him as one of the Sannin.



Hanzō didn't make Jiraiya, or Orochimaru, or Tsunade, famous. If that were the case they would be famous as the Sannin and _only_ as the Sannin, nobody would know Jiraiya as the Toad Sage, nobody would refer to Tsunade as the Slug Princess, and we wouldn't have people calling Orochimaru the White Snake.

The would-be witnesses to the Hanzō fight *died* anyway...Hanzō went ahead and dubbed them the Sannin because he could tell they would eventually make themselves famous as they continued in their careers- like I said earlier, they became famous _due to their exploits following their confrontation with him_, not _because of_ their confrontation with him.

The title of Sannin only means as much as the people who hold it.


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> _This is what Hanzō said._
> 
> Where do you see the word "legendary", Rocky?



I'm pretty sure Hanzo gave them the title _"伝説の三忍,"_ which is _"Legendary Three Ninja."_

If you have the raw we can confirm, but I highly doubt he gave them the title "The Three People of Konoha."


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## FlamingRain (Apr 9, 2015)

I don't. 

Turrin might.

I don't know if it's _that_ strange to name them "Three Ninja of Konoha" if we have "Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist".


I still think the same thing, though. The people who hold the title determine what it means, and the Sannin we've come to know in the manga are far more powerful than the trio that fought Hanzō.


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## Icegaze (Apr 9, 2015)

I gotta rep flamming rain 
proper posts. 
i have missed those


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## Rocky (Apr 9, 2015)

I agree that the Sannin then were nothing compared to what we've seen in Part II, mostly due to the acquisition of broken techniques (Sage Mode & Byakugo) and all of the experiments Orochimaru performed to further his own abilities. 

That said, I still think they were supposed to be viewed as powerful ninja back then, thus the "legendary" part of the title. I mean, fifty is typically not one's prime, so it's reasonable to assume that outside of the aforementioned techniques, there wasn't _that_ drastic of a power spike from when they were younger, at least in the case of Jiraiya & Tsunade.


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## Icegaze (Apr 9, 2015)

but those techniques u mentioned drastically and i mean drastically boost their abilities. so there is no comparison 
also orochimaru only perfromed the immortality technique long after that and by consequence got significantly stronger
its odd to think the others didnt get significantly stronger as well 

they were strong then but nothing at all compared to what they were in part 2

i mean tsunade using the yin seal in part 1 came as a surrprise to orchimaru. so she couldnt even use restoration techniques then. sorry but she got soo much stronger i wont even call her a ninja then compared to what she was in the war


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## Thunder (Apr 9, 2015)

The Sannin were already powerful Jōnin when they fought Hanzō. Otherwise they wouldn't have impressed him so much. The Databook tells us the Sannin commanded their signature giant summons during the Second Shinobi World War. Gamabunta / Katsuyu / Manda are enough to place the younger Sannin above most Jōnin. Meaning they were low Kage level, probably. We only saw the end of Hanzō vs. Sannin in the flashback, so we can't say for sure how long the fight lasted and which jutsu were used during it.

The timeline is all over the place.


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## Lawrence777 (Apr 9, 2015)

Hanzo could've potentially been lower than Nagato-level but higher than most 'high kages' from the hype that was given to him imo. I'd say people around SM Naruto / MS Sasuke are the people he'd potentially beat in that case or even stronger.

Tbh I think _that_ hype, like a lot of hype, has been retconned however. I don't think he was meant to be that strong as things currently are. He's like Hiruzen; was meant to be stronger, then later decided not to be as strong.

Alot of that comes from power inflation. That retconning happened the moment Pain showed up. 

I don't think Kishi _ever_ envisioned Hanzo even at his strongest being nagato level i.e. moving mountains, destroying cities, and reviving thousands of people. 

Being completely fair though, pre-pain showing up (when the hype was still current), he'd arguably have been among the strongest alongside prime hiruzen.


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## Turrin (Apr 9, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I don't.
> 
> Turrin might.
> 
> I don't know if it's _that_ strange to name them "Three Ninja of Konoha" if we have "Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist".


So 三人 , literally translates to "three people". San "三" = Three, and Nin "人" = People. However, Kishi replaces the "人" with "忍", which stands for Ninja or Shinobi. So it would be "The Three Ninja of Konoha". 

However there is subtext lost, when just look at the english translation. It would be rather silly for Hanzo to simply call the them Three Ninja of Konoha, as that wouldn't be any real title, as they literally are Three Ninja of Konoha lol.

Rather the fact that he's calling them the "三忍", becomes a title because in Japanese culture  "三忍" is a title that holds weight and specifically refers to three of the greatest and most legendary ninja from folklore. 

So Hanzo giving them the title "三忍", clearly conveys that Hanzo sees them as lengendary ninja worthy of that honor. In-fact to talk a little bit more inside baseball, it's quite awesome that Hanzo was the one who gave the Sannin their title, as Kishi uses the same Kanji to spell Hanzo's name as the legendary (and often times considered greatest of all ninja) Hattori Hanzo ("半挿"). So the whole cultural subtext of that scene is basically one of the most legendary ninja in all of history respecting Orochimaru, Tsunade, and Jiraiya so much that he gives them an almost equally legendary title.



> I still think the same thing, though. The people who hold the title determine what it means, and the Sannin we've come to know in the manga are far more powerful than the trio that fought Hanzō.


The Current Sannin are much stronger than they were when they fought Hanzo. There's no doubt about that, but the manga makes it fairly obvious that they were quite powerful as a unit even back then. And heck even if all three Sannin from back then combined added up to being close to one current Sannin, that would still put Hanzo well above an individual sannin, as he clearly dominated them in their match back then, as he's not even damage at all, while they are near the end of their rope.

Also one should consider the context of the manga. Kishi is giving choosing to give this character the same name as the legendary Ninja Hanzo and show such a culturally rich scene as Hanzo granting the Sannin their titles, all as build up to Jiriaya saying he can't believe a single person could defeat Hanzo. The scene is clearly meant to support that, so to say the Sannin were just weak back then, misses the entire point of the scene. The Sannin were strong as fuck, and Hanzo owned them, because he was even stronger than fuck, and it's that strength that makes Jiriaya believe no single man could defeat him. 

And what's the answer to all this, it's not well there are shinobi that could be as stronger or stronger, no it's the Amegakuru shinobi saying, well it did take fucking God to do it. 

So the whole scene reads as us dealing with some of the most legendary of all shinobi, with Hanzo being thee most legendary, and the only way that can be surpassed is through the power of the gods themselves.

That's personally why I see Prime-Hanzo as at the very tippy top of the non Kaguya connected Shinobi, because for all intents and purposes that's how he's played off in that scene.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

1 The sannin didn't fight Hanzou by themself. They were leading or at least among an squad of shinobis from konoha

2 They were utterly destroyed by Hanzou neg diff

3 The sannin were able to use their boss summons, and Jiraiya at least had begun his sage training

4 Jiraiya thought that even after getting the sage mode he wasn't on par with prime Hanzou.

Conclusion
Prime Hanzou=>Sage Jiraiya (and Orochimaru and Tsunade with their power ups, each by themself, not as a team) > The squad of ninjas lead by the sannin>Old Hanzou


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 10, 2015)

In a no knowledge scenario he may force out a mutual K.O by ruptoring his venom sack against  shinobi who'd normally decimate him, like Sandaime Raikage, although it is a low possibility.

In a full knowledge scenario, it is doubtful if he can defeat anyone stronger than Hidan TBH. 
No offense to Hanzo bandwagoners but Hanzo is shit. One of the most overrated characters in the manga.




Rocky said:


> Mifune can't even really compete with any of the Sannin individually when they're older.



Neither can Hanzo.


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## Icegaze (Apr 10, 2015)

Grimm i swear u feel like my double account
my words exactly 
maybe again they have some Db info we dont. those who are hyping hanzo mind sharing his DB info as well as his techniques
cuz from what i read not much about his fighting abilities


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## FlamingRain (Apr 10, 2015)

Turrin my answers to your points would be the largely the same as my answes to Rocky's, so if you'll just read this reply to him...



Rocky said:


> I agree that the Sannin then were nothing compared to what we've seen in Part II, mostly due to the acquisition of broken techniques (Sage Mode & Byakugo) and all of the experiments Orochimaru performed to further his own abilities.
> 
> That said, I still think they were supposed to be viewed as powerful ninja back then, thus the "legendary" part of the title. I mean, fifty is typically not one's prime, so it's reasonable to assume that outside of the aforementioned techniques, there wasn't _that_ drastic of a power spike from when they were younger, at least in the case of Jiraiya & Tsunade.



I'm sure they were supposed to be powerful back then as well (Hanzō explicitly says the three of them are strong), my view is just that what Hanzō was _really_ impressed with/taking interest in was their _potential_, and he simply wanted to perpetuate his own fame by being the answer to "where did you guys get that name from" questions and thus being associated with them once they actually started becoming legendary.

As of their stepping foot into this manga, "Sannin" referred to people who strike fear into the hearts of enemies across the globe, are strong enough to take down entire nations by themselves, and that by being inaugurated as Hokage could intimidate other villages enough to deter them from attacking Konoha when it was at roughly 1/3rd of its usual power.

I don't think Hanzō, whether at his peak or not, could handle three ninjas each with a r?sum? anything like _that_, and _Jiraiya_ doesn't seem to believe that he would be stronger than even one.

Remember his conversation with Gamatora?

_"I'll be fighting a *slightly* tough opponent."_

_"I shouldn't be too long."_

It's even more telling when you consider that knowing he was going up against the guy who killed Hanzō didn't even make him consider Sage Mode (if it had, he would have entered it before slipping into that Amegakure ninja's shadow to fish Pain out), and he only decided to utilize his most powerful form from the start once he realized _he was going up against the Rinnegan_.

That is definitely _not_ the behavior of somebody going up against someone apparently superior to their superior all by themselves, so I do think their power spike was...pretty dramatic.

What I find impressive about Jiraiya expressing surprise that Hanzō was defeated isn't the fact that the surprise comes from a Sannin, it's the fact that it comes from a person that already knew Akatsuki was an organization made up of Kage-level fighters (which at least implies that Hanzō was stronger than your run of the mill Kage).


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> In a no knowledge scenario he may force out a mutual K.O by ruptoring his venom sack against  shinobi who'd normally decimate him, like Sandaime Raikage, although it is a low possibility.
> 
> In a full knowledge scenario, it is doubtful if he can defeat anyone stronger than Hidan TBH.
> No offense to Hanzo bandwagoners but Hanzo is shit. One of the most overrated characters in the manga.



Ironic coming from someone with Grimmjow in his user name.

LOL Mifune could one shoot Hidan, the same goes for Hanzou, even old Hanzou can cut hidan's head before he can know what happened.

Hanzou defeated the sannin along with a team of Konoha ninjas, that's a fact.
Hanzou crippled Nagato, that's a fact.
Hanzou was faster than Gedo Mazo's attacks, that's a fact.
Jiraiya thought Hanzou was more powerful than him, even with Sage Mode.

@FlaminRain

Jiraiya didn't really want to fight Pain, he wanted to infiltrate the city and get the info before someone noticed him. That's why he didn't enter in Sage mode.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 10, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> @FlaminRain
> 
> Jiraiya didn't really want to fight Pain, he wanted to infiltrate the city and get the info before someone noticed him. That's why he didn't enter in Sage mode.



You can't seriously think I'm going to believe this here excuse when I just provided the page of Jiraiya saying he was going to be _fighting_ him.

Do I also need to go get the page where he said to Konan that he was _trying to fish Pain out_ to hammer it home?

Okay maybe this translation says "I cast the bait hoping to land this 'Pain' guy" but that's fishing _(1)_.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> You can't seriously think I'm going to believe this here excuse when I just provided the page of Jiraiya saying he was going to be _fighting_ him.
> 
> Do I also need to go get the page where he said to Konan that he was _trying to fish Pain out_ to hammer it home?
> 
> Okay maybe this translation says "I cast the bait hoping to land this 'Pain' guy" but that's fishing _(1)_.



Fair enough, I didn't remember it that way.

Anyway Jiraiya did also say that he couldn't believe that there existed someone able to defeat Hanzou.

So he really did believe that Hanzou (prime Hanzou), was more powerful than even himself.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 10, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Ironic coming from someone with Grimmjow in his user name.


But whats more ironic is that its coming from someone with Zuhaitz in their user name. 



> LOL Mifune could one shoot Hidan, the same goes for Hanzou, even old Hanzou can cut hidan's head before he can know what happened.


Unsubstantiated horseshit.



> Hanzou defeated the sannin along with a team of Konoha ninjas, that's a fact.


Hanzo also had his own army. That is also a fact.



> Hanzou crippled Nagato, that's a fact.



He did that by kidnapping a woman and using a trap to destroy Nagato's legs(who for some reason couldn't detect it with his rinnegan or sensory abilities), which is also a fact.



> Hanzou was faster than Gedo Mazo's attacks, that's a fact.


And we don't know how fast Gedo Mazo's attacks are, that is also a fact.



> Jiraiya thought Hanzou was more powerful than him, even with Sage Mode.


He was overestimating Hanzo.

Its just like your big brother/your dad/whoever the fuck you think is strong @ that point seems like the strongest man on earth when you'r 6 years old. Hanzo was that guy for Jiraiya, doesn't mean he was still stronger, Jiraiya was just overrating him.

The opposite of this happened with Sasuke and Itachi. Sasuke thought he'd be able to take on Itachi in part 1, after he awakened 2 tomoe sharingan and learned Chidori, but the gap between them was still very evident.
Characters can underestimate or overestimate others. 

Also if Jiraiya really thought Hanzo was stronger than himself, then he would never attempt to fight Pain.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 10, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Fair enough, I didn't remember it that way.
> 
> Anyway Jiraiya did also say that he couldn't believe that there existed someone able to defeat Hanzou.
> 
> So he really did believe that Hanzou (prime Hanzou), was more powerful than even himself.



The Viz reads: _"Unbelievable...that he could take down Hanzo by himself."_

Most people tend to use the term "unbelievable" loosely, and Jiraiya was referring specifically to Pain. It's an exaggerated statement like nobody being able to stand shoulder to shoulder with Tsunade or Minato being unparalleled.

I don't know if Jiraiya was aware that Hanzō was no longer in his prime either. We were shown him remembering Hanzō at his peak, it was never indicated that he was aware that the salamander had since gone rotten. He seemed to think he was still active in the Amegakure civil war...


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## Trojan (Apr 10, 2015)

> Minato being unparalleled.



Except for his son.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> The Viz reads: _"Unbelievable...that he could take down Hanzo by himself."_
> 
> Most people tend to use the term "unbelievable" loosely, and Jiraiya was referring specifically to Pain. It's an exaggerated statement like nobody being able to stand shoulder to shoulder with Tsunade or Minato being unparalleled.
> 
> I don't know if Jiraiya was aware that Hanzō was no longer in his prime either. We were shown him remembering Hanzō at his peak, it was never indicated that he was aware that the salamander had since gone rotten. He seemed to think he was still active in the Amegakure civil war...



It is not exaggerated at all, Minato was genius and one of the most powerful ninjas of all time.

And Jiraiya found it extraordinary that anyone could defeat Hanzou, because he considered Hanzou as an extremely powerful ninja.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 10, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> It is not exaggerated at all, Minato was genius and one of the most powerful ninjas of all time.



If he's not _the single greatest_ ninja of all time then he's not really unparalleled, and what about Jiraiya saying virtually the same thing about Tsunade?

It's clearly exaggerated.



> And Jiraiya found it extraordinary that anyone could defeat Hanzou, because he considered Hanzou as an extremely powerful ninja.



Of course. That doesn't mean he thought Hanzō was his own superior, though.


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I'm sure they were supposed to be powerful back then as well (Hanzō explicitly says the three of them are strong), my view is just that what Hanzō was _really_ impressed with/taking interest in was their _potential_, and he simply wanted to perpetuate his own fame by being the answer to "where did you guys get that name from" questions and thus being associated with them once they actually started becoming legendary.


I'm sorry, but at no point was the scene about potential. Again the context of the scene was Jiraiay thinking back to this strength display of Hanzo's and concluding no single individual could beat Hanzo. The scene was there to hype Hanzo's strength, not to hype the Sannin's potential.



> As of their stepping foot into this manga, "Sannin" referred to people who strike fear into the hearts of enemies across the globe, are strong enough to take down entire nations by themselves, and that by being inaugurated as Hokage could intimidate other villages enough to deter them from attacking Konoha when it was at roughly 1/3rd of its usual power


And Jiraiya believes no single person can beat Hanzo. Is Jiriaya making that statement, if Orochimaru, Tsunade, or himself could defeat Hanzo, no he's not.



> I don't think Hanzō, whether at his peak or not, could handle three ninjas each with a r?sum? anything like that, and Jiraiya doesn't seem to believe that he would be stronger than even one.


I don't think anyone believes Hanzo could take down all three Sannin at their best, but he's clearly suppose to be seen as better than a Sannin [as of the Uchiha Bros arc]



> Remember his conversation with Gamatora?
> 
> "I'll be fighting a slightly tough opponent."
> 
> ...


None of this has legs. Why because Jiraiya clearly stated he did not believe the Amegakuru fodder that Pain solo'd Hanzo. In-fact the Kanji used in the original Japanese, specifically implies Jiraiya thinks the Amegakuru fodder's intel is merely a second hand rumor.

So Jiriaya's actions are not those of a person who believes Pain solo'd Hanzo is likely in the first place. But Jiriaya giving Gamatora to Naruto, was probably due to the rumor of Pain soloing Hanzo, because on the off chance it was true Jiriaya was dead meat.

I also don't see why you think is prudent to try and argue around what Jiraiya actually said. We know Jiriaya's thoughts about Hanzo's strength as he told us. He believed no single person could beat Hanzo. So why exactly would he than contrary to what he just said believe Hanzo is much weaker than a Sannin; it makes no sense. 



> What I find impressive about Jiraiya expressing surprise that Hanzō was defeated isn't the fact that the surprise comes from a Sannin, it's the fact that it comes from a person that already knew Akatsuki was an organization made up of Kage-level fighters (which at least implies that Hanzō was stronger than your run of the mill Kage).


Jiraiya knew that the organization was made up of people he expressed were more troublesome than Orochimaru. So Hanzo would need to be quite a great deal stronger than Orochimaru, for Jiraiya to be surprised that their leader was capable of defeating Hanzo.



FlamingRain said:


> The Viz reads: _"Unbelievable...that he could take down Hanzo by himself."_
> 
> Most people tend to use the term "unbelievable" loosely, and Jiraiya was referring specifically to Pain. It's an exaggerated statement like nobody being able to stand shoulder to shoulder with Tsunade or Minato being unparalleled.
> 
> I don't know if Jiraiya was aware that Hanzō was no longer in his prime either. We were shown him remembering Hanzō at his peak, it was never indicated that he was aware that the salamander had since gone rotten. He seemed to think he was still active in the Amegakure civil war...



The Hanzo statement isn't "unbelievable" in the sense that it's extraordinary that someone could do it, it's literally that he doesn't believe it and rather thinks the Amegakuru Shiobi is citing an off hand rumor. This doesn't get conveyed well by the english translations, but the Kanji used in Jiriaya's previous dialog hold that meaning.

The statement Jiraiya makes about Minato is talent and potential based, given the Kanji he uses. 

The one made about Tsunade, I haven't looked at, but if you have the page I'd be more than happy to look at the Raw. 

Basically from what I can tell. Jiriaya's opinion was that Hanzo was the strongest Ninja, while Minato had the potential to become the strongest ninja. Tsunade again i'm not sure until I find that page.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> If he's not _the single greatest_ ninja of all time then he's not really unparalleled, and what about Jiraiya saying virtually the same thing about Tsunade?



When did he say the same about Tsunade.



FlamingRain said:


> Of course. That doesn't mean he thought Hanzō was his own superior, though.



At least he was really surprissed that someone could defeat him, meaning that he at least thought that couldn't defeat him himself.


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## Kind of a big deal (Apr 10, 2015)

I have always felt that Hanzou's power was like Danzou's. Not literally his abilities of him on his own (although certainly good enough to make a Sannin unsure about the outcome), but the fact that as a leader through his organisation (or country in this case) he wields substantial power, and that's what makes him truly dangerous.

To illustrate this, long ago I did some math, and there's a good amount of years between the moment that Nagato is made to kill Yahiko, and Hanzou finally losing the civil war to Akatsuki. During all this time, Hanzou manages to stay alive, because it was mentioned later that he had only recently been killed. Imagine if you will, how strong someone has to be, to be on Pain's death list, and survive for years. I don't have to remind everyone how quickly he dealt with the entirety of Konoha. Also, those guys carrying corpses to the tower, that Jiraiya interrogated later, hinted at the fact that they had to do that regularly enough to recognise the gender of a corpse by weigh alone. That leads me to believe that assuming power in the Hidden Rain was actually very, very difficult for Pain/Nagato, and even cost him a large amount of host bodies.

It's not actual proof though, of course. But it makes sense to me to see the hype surrounding him, as more about his functions and ambition, rather than his personal fighting ability. I get the sense throughout all his mentions and also his edo tensei, where he speaks about it briefly, that he's considered sort of like the seminal shinobi, the main adversary of the 5 great villages. (for you history fans he would be to the villages what Mithridates would be to the Roman republic -also immune to poison btw) They fear/hype him for what he represents, rather than his personal fighting power.

That explains the hype, and it explains that he is a very capable fighter, but not the upper tier in the whole manga.

As for the strongest he could beat, I guess anyone susceptible to poison. Maybe like 3rd Raikage. Which would be, at least to me, pretty much par for the course for the hype he has during his lifetime/prime.


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2015)

Okay I found it:

Chapter 158, PG 4

"Her contribution was a big part of Konoha's victory during the great era of war.....no person as of yet has stood shoulder to shoulder with her medical or battle jutsu" 

---------

It's Jutsu" not skill. I see where Viz made the mistake though. Because 術 literally means arts or skills. However in the context of the Naruto manga "術" is always used to refer to Jutsu. 

So really Jiriaya is saying that Tsunade's Jutsu are unrivaled. His reasoning for that doesn't have to be their strength though; it could simply be how useful her Jutsu are in a battle, because she can support everyone. In-fact the entire sentence is within the context of the Great-Ninja War and the Kanji used for Battle, can mean the battle between two armies. So honestly that's what I think Jiraiya is getting at their.

But even if Jiriaya meant her literal battle-Jutsu were better than anyone else, that would just mean her Jutsu are the best, not that she is the best, as their are other factors that decide someone's overall combat proficiency. So Tsunade can have thee best Jutsu, while Hanzo is still thee best Shinobi. Though once again I have to stress that I think Kishi/Jiriaya just means she has the most valuable Jutsu in a war setting, because of her unmatched medical ninjutsu and support capabilities.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 10, 2015)

_*"Not only did she contribute greatly toward's Konoha's victory during the turbulent era of the Great War...// but there are still none who can stand shoulder to shoulder with her in regards to battle or medical Jutsu."​*_
Viz doesn't say "skill" in its translation, it says Jutsu, so I don't know where you're seeing a mistake at regarding that.

Now I may not have the raws myself to really be able to see what characters are and aren't there, but I've read that the Viz translator's so called "mistakes" are most often intentional because of her interpretation of the text, and going off of what I _can_ see I seriously doubt Jiraiya is simply referring to her having the most valuable Jutsu for a war. "Not only", "but", "still", and "or" make it sound like he begins talking specifically about her abilities standalone and not simply their value in the setting of the Great War specifically. Regarding Minato it goes:

*"Aw, come on, everybody pales in comparison to the fourth lord. // As a shinobi, his capacity was unparalleled. A true one-of-a-kind…// He was overflowing with talent for Jutsu and intelligence…he was socially popular…and well, he was quite a looker, just like me."​*
He doesn't seem to be talking only about talent, because talent is only brought up a couple sentences in.

So I don't believe you.

I don't even know what makes you (more) trustworthy anyway, honestly. Not to be mean, I just don't, and you're being weighed against the people that actually get paid to translate this stuff and have time to do it (doesn't mean they're infallible but it's something).



Turrin said:


> I'm sorry, but at no point was the scene about potential. Again the context of the scene was Jiraiay thinking back to this strength display of Hanzo's and concluding no single individual could beat Hanzo. The scene was there to hype Hanzo's strength, not to hype the Sannin's potential.



You did a spectacular job raising some _irrelevant_ objections.

Hanzō's interests =/= that scene. I never contested that the scene was there to hype Hanzō's strength, but the fact that the scene was there to hype Hanzō's strength simply doesn't tell us anything about what Hanzō's intentions were in deciding to let the Sannin go.

"Hanzō's so strong that the only reason the Sannin are alive is because he let them live when he fought them in their youth" does nothing to answer the question "Well, _why_ did he decide to let them live and name them Sannin?" So we have to look elsewhere for that.

It couldn't have been _just_ because Konoha was going to win anyway because that still gives him no incentive to actually give them the name Sannin (and he could have done that before he killed everyone else), we also know the three continued to grow (latent potential) and as their reputation grew _so would his_, as the person who gave them the title; therefore it seems plausible to infer that he was simply using them as a way to get his own name out there.

Such inferences aren't precluded by the fact that the scene was to hype Hanzō.



> And Jiraiya believes no single person can beat Hanzo. Is Jiriaya making that statement, if Orochimaru, Tsunade, or himself could defeat Hanzo, no he's not.



Again, most people use the term "unbelievable" very loosely. This is casual speech not a formal essay. Everybody who is anybody has heard people say "I can't believe x" _right after they watch x happen in front of them with their own eyes_- they do not literally mean "I do not believe that just happened", they mean "wow that's incredible". If Jiraiya seriously did not actually believe it happened he would not even care to ask _how_ it happened ("And just how was Hanzo killed? // What are Pain's abilities?", etc.).

As of right now I'm not buying your claim that "Jiraiya doesn't believe it and that just doesn't get conveyed well by english translations". Translation is an art, not a science. How hard can it be to have Jiraiya say something like _"A single man defeating Hanzo...yeah, right"_ or _"that's far-fetched...that this Pain could take down Hanzo alone"_ both of which would capture the original meaning a _lot_ better for english-speaking audiences? That doesn't seem hard to do. Like at all. They could have even had him blatantly say "I don't really believe that he could take Hanzo down by himself." so I just have a hard time buying "Jiraiya really doesn't believe it and that just doesn't get conveyed well by english translations"

Jiraiya "believes no single person can beat Hanzō" about as much as he believes there are none who can stand shoulder to shoulder with Tsunade or parallel Minato.



> He's clearly suppose to be seen as better than a Sannin [as of the Uchiha Bros arc]



I still disagree.



> I also don't see why you think is prudent to try and argue around what Jiraiya actually said.



Because from my perspective _that *wasn't* what he was saying_. If I thought that he meant what you think he did we wouldn't be arguing right now. If I wanted to argue _around_ what he said I could just say that I think Jiraiya was _wrong_ and try to show why he might be mistaken, but that's not what I'm doing.



> Jiraiya knew that the organization was made up of people he expressed were more troublesome than Orochimaru. .



Hah.

_"Then someday, you'll die against opponent*s* that are more troublesome than Orochimaru."_ Unless Jiraiya thinks Naruto is going to be killed multiple times or something he's not referring to them on an individual basis. He was surprised Hanzō was killed by Pain _all by himself_.

Not to mention that he may not even be talking about power there, since "more troublesome" could mean all sorts of things. One example being that people like Akatsuki are actually after Naruto whereas Orochimaru was only concerned about getting Sasuke, another might be how Orochimaru usually just waits for people to join him whereas Akatsuki just incapacitates them and takes them by. Nevermind that he was talking to Naruto, and that the Orochimaru that Naruto would have known was the one with no hands(eals).



Zuhaitz said:


> When did he say the same about Tsunade.



The very page before he said it about Minato.



> At least he was really surprissed that someone could defeat him, meaning that he at least thought that couldn't defeat him himself.



Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

Ah no?
Why would he be surprised of someone defeating Hanzou if he himself was able of such a feat?


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 10, 2015)

Oh shit, I feel FlamingRain solo'd this thread.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

Sorry, but Turrin did the thread and he solo'd it.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 10, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Sorry, but Turrin did the thread and he solo'd it.





 Too bad it's my opinion and I made that very clear in my post.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Too bad it's my opinion and I made that very clear in my post.



Your opinion about the who is the strongest character Hanzou can defeat (the topic of the thread)? or something that none cares about but you feel that you have to write it here anyway?

Just asking.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 10, 2015)

Zuhaitz said:


> Your opinion about the who is the strongest character Hanzou can defeat (the topic of the thread)? or something that none cares about but you feel that you have to write it here anyway?
> 
> Just asking.



 Everyone cares about my onion. 

 Carry on now, peasant.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Everyone cares about my onion.
> 
> Carry on now, peasant.



Of course they do, you are special, you are the only user whose user name has a "Naruto" on it.


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> _*"Not only did she contribute greatly toward's Konoha's victory during the turbulent era of the Great War...// but there are still none who can stand shoulder to shoulder with her in regards to battle or medical Jutsu."​*_
> Viz doesn't say "skill" in its translation, it says Jutsu, so I don't know where you're seeing a mistake at regarding that.
> .


Okay, I was going off the Wiki that says Unrivaled Battle skills, and assumed they were quoting the Viz, because that's different than the online trans.



> Now I may not have the raws myself to really be able to see what characters are and aren't there, but I've read that the Viz translator's so called "mistakes" are most often intentional because of her interpretation of the text


And all I can give is my interpretation that, is that she has it wrong, and show my work. So here I go:

The sentence starts with その, which literally means "someone". In this case Jiriaya is speaking about Tsunade, so the natural translation for that would be "her". Viz also agrees with this translating it as "her". Than after that it continues with the part of the line in contention "戦闘•医療術" 

"戦闘" stands for "battle", "医療" stands for medical treatment, and "術" stands for "Jutsu". All of these things are easily referenced:





Now the question becomes what does the "•" stand for. In Japanese grammar the dot is used to indicate items in sequence. Unfortunately the best reference to this I can find is a Japanese's person's response to Yahoo answers article:

"Works like the spaces between words in English, especially when used with katakana. Also used to list multiple items like: 友情・努力・勝利 (friendship, effort and victory). "



But that should suffice. So anyway you'd translate the "・" here to be "and/or".

So it comes out to "battle and/or medical jutsu". Now keep in mind this isn't the only time Kishi uses the "・" he also uses it frequently in the Data-books, for you guessed it Jutsu:


Given the way Kishi uses it in the Data-books, where it's typical used to describe a type of Jutsu, I.E. Enton・Kagatsuchi, Katon・Whatever. It may be even more prudent here to translate that setence as Battle・Medical Jutsu. I.E. it's the type of Jutsu is combat, but it's medical jutsu. So battle-medical jutsu.

However I avoided that, because I thought that would be taking a bit too many liberties with my translation, I.E. trying to get into Kishi's head too much. Though that shows part of the reason why I feel Jiraiya is probably speaking towards her medical jutsu's being what's uncontested in battle.

Anyway, there is no "In" like the Viz has in the Japanese text. "in" to my knowledge doesn't even exists as a Japanese word and whenever written is written in Katakana [which is the series of characters used to represent words not found in the original japanese language] as "イン".

And really it's the "in" that makes it sound like Tsunade is uncontested well "in" battle, versus if we remove the "in" and go for the more literal translation, it's just "battle and/or medical jutsu". 

Now you could still interpret it as "battle" and "Medical-Jutsu", where the "Jutsu" only applies to "Medical", but I think that goes against the spirit of Kishi using the "・' there too much, just like translating it as battle-medical jutsu might be going a bit too far. For example, look at another example from Jiriaya. It's by the same speaker, Jiriaya, so the type of speech shouldn't change and it also lists more than one item "優しい男だったが根性" and so on. Here Jiraiya also list multiple things. He says Minato was a kind man and his will-power was intense, but instead of using the  "・" he uses "が" ["Ga"] to signify "and". Why the difference? 

From what I can tell from my understanding of the language and Kishi's writing habits it's because in the Tsunade example battle and medical are suppose to both be connected to "jutsu", while in the other example the two things are separated.

---------

As for why I believe even more so that Jiriaya is referring to Tsunade's battle-Jutsu in the sense of her support capabilities on the battlefield. Well besides what I already spoke towards it's the context of the sentence. The sentence starts off with Jiriaya telling Naruto how Tsunade was such a major factor for why Konoha achieved victory in it's previous wars. So in that context "battle" probably doesn't mean any old battle, but rather "war". In war she is unrivaled, well we learn why later, because she is a support beast, that is a massive boon to the side that has her in the war. Those are just my thoughts, though [not the translator talking, well at least not completely].

Here's the Raw's to cross reference:
"Then someday, you'll die against opponent*s* that are more troublesome than Orochimaru."
"Then someday, you'll die against opponent*s* that are more troublesome than Orochimaru."



> "Aw, come on, everybody pales in comparison to the fourth lord. // As a shinobi, his capacity was unparalleled. A true one-of-a-kind…// He was overflowing with talent for Jutsu and intelligence…he was socially popular…and well, he was quite a looker, just like me."
> 
> 
> He doesn't seem to be talking only about talent, because talent is only brought up a couple sentences in.


For the Minato thing I don't even need to bother giving a long winded explanation, instead I'll just quote the most esteemed off all translators to grace these boards, Shounensuki:

ShounenSuki, "四代目と比べられりゃ　誰だってキツイだろうーよ　なんせ　あやつは忍としての器は歴代一だ った… 術の才に溢れ　頭脳明晰…人望に満ち　まぁ…ワシ並みに男前だったしのォ」
"Being compared to the Yondaime would be hard for anyone. Anyhow, that guy's ability as a shinobi was first among all... There was no end to his ability with jutsu. He had a keen mind... Very popular. Well... he was a handsome man, like me."

Anyway, as I said in the earlier thread, I would interpret these quotes as saying that the Yondaime was the most talented shinobi ever"




> I don't even know what makes you (more) trustworthy anyway, honestly. Not to be mean, I just don't, and you're being weighed against the people that actually get paid to translate this stuff and have time to do it (doesn't mean they're infallible but it's something).


They get paid to make a readable translation, they do not get paid to translate things to be scrutinized in strength debates, by ultra-fans. What Viz says is completely readable and convey's the overall meaning of the text; Tsunade is a huge asset to Konoha, that is worthy of the title of Hokage and an excellent ninja. 

But we, take things deeper than that, and scrutinize things much more intensely. Which is what your doing here. Jiriaya may be exaggerating his stance on Hanzo, because he said Tsunade is unrivaled in battle, which is contradictory. Viz isn't accounting for such things and is not around to explain the nature of the text in accordance with said discussion, so while their translation is perfectly acceptable under normal circumstance, it's not so here. 

So while I don't profess to be a better translator than whoever translates for the Viz, I do feel i'm a more effective translator for these discussions about specific wordings in strength debates, because not only am I actually around to explain things, but i'm also taking my time to consider the text in the context that's being presented here and translating it as close to the original japanese as possible, Versus Viz who has probably 100 other things to translate by whatever deadline they are held to and therefore are not giving notes on all their work, prudent to strength debates.

If after all that you still wish to not believe me, that's up to you, but don't expect me to be convinced by any argument that is asking me to ignore what i'm reading and getting out of the Raw-Text. If Shounensuki was in here or someone of her caliber who can discuss the translation with me and why i'm mistaken in my interpretation, it would be one thing, but someone just pointing to another translation and saying it's right, while what i'm actually reading from the Raw is wrong, is not something i'm buying into.

--------

But I digress, because even going off the Viz, the Viz does not state why there is "none who can stand shoulder to shoulder with her in regards to battle". Even going off the Viz that doesn't have to be a purely strength statement, she could be the best in battle due to her support capabilities.


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2015)

> Such inferences aren't precluded by the fact that the scene was to hype Hanzō.


But i'm not sure what your driving at here. I don't think anyone denies that Hanzo probably saw potential in the Sannin, but the point of the scene was to first and foremost hype Hanzo.



> Again, most people use the term "unbelievable" very loosely. This is casual speech not a formal essay. Everybody who is anybody has heard people say "I can't believe x" right after they watch x happen in front of them with their own eyes- they do not literally mean "I do not believe that just happened", they mean "wow that's incredible". If Jiraiya seriously did not actually believe it happened he would not even care to ask how it happened ("And just how was Hanzo killed? // What are Pain's abilities?", etc.).
> 
> As of right now I'm not buying your claim that "Jiraiya doesn't believe it and that just doesn't get conveyed well by english translations". Translation is an art, not a science. How hard can it be to have Jiraiya say something like "A single man defeating Hanzo...yeah, right" or "that's far-fetched...that this Pain could take down Hanzo alone"


I'm sorry dude but he says point blank "I don't believe it", and your response is well it's just a figure of speech. If he said "that's far-fetched" or "yeah-right" I could easily argue the same thing as you that it's a figure of speech, not meant to be taken completely literally. So basically it's not an issue with text not being straight forward, it's an issue with you assuming the text is not straight forward. Which would be okay, if we had a reason to believe it's not straight forward, but we don't. Jiraiya never says anything to undermine the statement and nether does any other characters in the verse. Not to mention the actual Japanese used makes it clear that Jiraiya is treating this assertion as a rumor, and after all that's what it is, even in context with the rest of the scene he is torturing an Amegakuru-fodder who really knows nothing about Pain, except that he's suppose to be some kind of God. That Amegakuru-Fodder never saw Pain solo Hanzo or even knew at all what Pain's abilities were. He quite literally is repeating a rumor.



> "Then someday, you'll die against opponents that are more troublesome than Orochimaru." Unless Jiraiya thinks Naruto is going to be killed multiple times or something he's not referring to them on an individual basis. He was surprised Hanzō was killed by Pain all by himself.


Well we could just use the Viz your so fond of it, which has it as a single enemy:

_"Someday you will face an enemy even greater than Orochimaru"_

Completely destroying your point, but in fairness, I'll take a look at the Raw myself.

Well I get opponents [well not exactly, but close enough] as well from reading the Raw, so i'll have to concede the point, it's possible he meant that more than one of them would gang up on Naruto.

Edit: I also get troublesome rather than greater, so that speaks towards your other point, but still doesn't diminish my doubts due to what I said bellow.

However with that statement aside I find it extremely dubious that Jiriaya would not account for someone around Orochimaru in strength being in Akatsuki. He spied on Akatsuki, saw Itachi's great power first hand, and knew that someone of Orochimaru's caliber [Orochimaru himself] was once a member of Akatsuki [and not even the leader]. So I still take a-lot of issue with the idea that Jiraiya would be so shocked the Akatsuki-Leader solo'd Hanzo, if Hanzo wasn't substantially stronger than Orochimaru [pre-edo retcon of course].


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2015)

@Zuhaitz

Don't be so hard on NarutoX28, he's one of the few people left in the BD that can carry a real discuss, which should be praised not bashed, even if we disagree with his conclusions. Though I would like to know more of his thoughts beyond just FlamingRain solo'd lol.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 10, 2015)

I have nothing to contribute to this discussion. You guys are analyzing the manga far more than I thought anybody would be able to, so congrats. I might add tidbits if need be, but I do believe I have nothing to contribute.


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## Rocky (Apr 10, 2015)

This is a good debate. I keep switching sides every time Turin & Flamey post.

I definitely agree with Turrin on the Tsunade thing. It doesn't make much sense for Jiraya to call her peerless in battle when that entire arc existed to showcase the Sannin _deadlocke_.


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I have nothing to contribute to this discussion. You guys are analyzing the manga far more than I thought anybody would be able to, so congrats. I might add tidbits if need be, but I do believe I have nothing to contribute.


Lol, we are indeed going overboard. I only put this effort in because Hanzo and the Sannin are some of the characters I find the most interesting in the manga.



Rocky said:


> This is a good debate. I keep switching sides every time Turin & Flamey post.
> 
> I definitely agree with Turrin on the Tsunade thing. It doesn't make much sense for Jiraya to call her peerless in battle when that entire arc existed to showcase the Sannin _deadlocke_.


That's also true. I mean Jiraiya does seem pretty confident he can kill Tsunade in that arc:

Jiriaya, "i'll personally hunt you down and kill you"
Jiraiya, "depending on the circumstances I might have to kill Tsunade"

That's from the Viz, not my translation, to clarify.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> And all I can give is my interpretation that, is that she has it wrong, and show my work. So here I go:
> 
> It may be even more prudent here to translate that setence as Battle・Medical Jutsu. I.E. it's the type of Jutsu is combat, but it's medical jutsu. So battle-medical jutsu.
> 
> However I avoided that, because I thought that would be taking a bit too many liberties with my translation, I.E. trying to get into Kishi's head too much. Though that shows part of the reason why I feel Jiraiya is probably speaking towards her medical jutsu's being what's uncontested in battle.



I follow you up to the point where you compare the use of ・ in Jiraiya's comment to its use in the databooks. Wouldn't the use in the databook be more akin to marking the beginning of a title being written than the word "and"?

If you think _battle・medical Jutsu_ ("battle/combat-type medical Jutsu"?) goes too far yet think Jutsu still applies to both shouldn't you just say that it's supposed to mean something more along the lines of _"battle Jutsu and medical Jutsu"_, which means essentially the same thing as _"battle or medical Jutsu"_? If so then that would just speak towards the _dual-functioning_ nature of Tsunade's abilities (even _if_ we read it as "combat-type medical Jutsu") as we've seen medical techniques be used for offensive purposes _as well as_ supplementary (looking at Shosen overdose, Chakra Scalpels, Ranshinshō, and Chakra-charged strength here?). Jiraiya would just be speaking about both fighting _and_ treatment, not simply talking about her healing skills being amazing for wars. If that was all he would have just mentioned her medicinal skills without the second mention of combat.

I would think that _"battle or medical Jutsu"_ is more consistent with Sakura's flashbacks of training with Tsunade, too. The Kazekage Rescue arc has her remembering that offense comes second, not because supporting the team is more important than attacking, but because evasion was the first priority; the Ten Tails Revival Arc has her remembering that being the medic isn't an excuse to not learn how to fight. (It's why Tsunade's known as both the greatest medical ninja _and_ most _powerful_ Kunoichi simultaneously, and why when supporting the other four Kage didn't get them anywhere against Madara she went on the offensive instead of sticking with support.)

I also thought が meant something more like _"but"_, than _"and"_, and that it would read more like "he was a kind man _but/despite that_ his willpower was intense". (I think that makes more sense anyway since people don't tend to associate kindness with intense/fierce willpower.) So wouldn't the difference actually be that in the Tsunade example battle and medical are supposed to be two things that simply pile into one whole additive whereas in the Minato example kind and fierce contrast with each other?



> If after all that you still wish to not believe me, that's up to you, but don't expect me to be convinced by any argument that is asking me to ignore what i'm reading and getting out of the Raw-Text.



That's fine. I was just saying I didn't know why _I_ should take you over the Viz.



> But I digress, because even going off the Viz, the Viz does not state why there is "none who can stand shoulder to shoulder with her in regards to battle". Even going off the Viz that doesn't have to be a purely strength statement, she could be the best in battle due to her support capabilities.



It doesn't make sense to distinguish battle from support unless he is talking about _both_ her battle and support capabilities as two different things that nobody can stand shoulder to shoulder with. In order to satisfy your interpretation all he would have to do is bring up her medical abilities without reference to battle because he _already_ brought up the war itself.



Turrin said:


> But i'm not sure what your driving at here. I don't think anyone denies that Hanzo probably saw potential in the Sannin, but the point of the scene was to first and foremost hype Hanzo.



I'm getting at exactly what I said: that the potential Hanzō  saw in Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru was the ability we know of the Sannin today, that _that's_ what it means to be one of the Sannin and that _that's_ what Hanzō wanted to be associated with, not the power of the far inferior striplings that he beat up. I'm saying that I disagree with Rocky that their power increase wasn't that drastic, and I think Hanzō gave them the title counting on them to go and make _themselves_ famous. Hanzō didn't make them famous- they'd have been famous regardless of whether or not they ever fought Hanzō, it's just that when they did fight Hanzō he realized that, saw an opportunity to spread his own name, and took it.



> I'm sorry dude but he says point blank "I don't believe it", and your response is well it's just a figure of speech. If he said "that's far-fetched" or "yeah-right" I could easily argue the same thing as you that it's a figure of speech, not meant to be taken completely literally.



They don't have to be concerned about ultra-fans debating. Viz translation is paid to capture the feeling and meaning of the text in a way that flows well for english-speaking audiences.

The reason we have to believe it isn't straightforward is a matter of usage likelihood. People _usually_ mean they don't actually believe what they're being told when they use the phrases "far-fetched" and/or "yeah, right", as opposed to "unbelievable", which people normally use when they mean something is extraordinary or astonishing. So, _as far as conveying the original meaning and feeling to english speaking audiences_ those would be much better choices. That's an easy thing to do because it flows every bit as easily, and yet it changes the tone. It's _too_ easy to explain it away by just saying "it doesn't get conveyed in english very well".

That excuse is weak as I don't know what; so weak that I'd much sooner assume that the real problem is just this:



You said:


> With my Hanzo-fandom.



than it truly "not conveying well in english".

So the very fact that they still went with "unbelievable" calls into question the idea that Jiraiya was _not_ simply using it as a figure of speech, as does Jiraiya's own prior inquiry about _how_ Hanzō was killed and _by what_ abilities. Even if the Amegakure fodder didn't know the specifics of Pain's abilities he couldn't have been so ignorant as to not even realize when a civil war had ended, and what could have caused that other than Hanzō dying, apparently _without witnesses_ (if nobody was _there_ to see then that implies nobody was _there_ helping Pain)?



> Well we could just use the Viz your so fond of it, which has it as a single enemy.



I would have but I lost volume 27 a while ago, and eh...I don't think that translation "destroys" my point. It _might_ undercut it but it may not do that either, because "an enemy" could still mean a person, it could mean a small group, and it could even be taken to mean an army really.

Jiraiya stated that they didn't know the full details, so he may not have known if there even was a leader back then (and by Part 2 he still didn't know what the leader's name was). He only indicated that he knew the nine members all joined voluntarily.

Jiraiya himself thought he could fight one Akatsuki pair alone, and Kakashi seemed to figure the same thing in the Kazekage Rescue Arc when they were pondering why it took so long for Akatsuki to make a move, saying _"They probably couldn't do anything, not that they just didn't?after all, Naruto was with Jiraiya?"_ Jiraiya may well have simply figured that his snaky contemporary was at the top in terms of power at the time, as he _did_ know that Orochimaru was an "important" member when he talked to Kakashi and apparently knew that most of the members appeared in the bingo book (meaning that at least _some_ could be identified).

So long as Jiraiya had no good reason to think Orochimaru's level of power was _typical_ of individual Akatsuki members I don't see the problem with Jiraiya being surprised that someone could solo Hanzō and yet still figuring himself to most likely be able to take said person on.



Rocky said:


> This is a good debate. I keep switching sides every time Turin & Flamey post.
> 
> I definitely agree with Turrin on the Tsunade thing. It doesn't make much sense for Jiraya to call her peerless in battle when that entire arc existed to showcase the Sannin _deadlocke_.



I realize that?.That's my reason for even bringing it up- my entire point is that these kinds of claims are hyperbolic.

In the same way that Jiraiya didn't _really_ mean that _nobody_ could stand shoulder to shoulder with Tsunade (and he didn't really mean hat nobody could parallel Minato's capacity as a shinobi, and that Kabuto didn't really mean nobody could overcome sickly Kimimaro regardless of who it was) Jiraiya didn't _actually_ mean that Hanzō couldn't be taken down by a single man.

He couldn't have. I mean forgetting everything else, everybody and their mama knew about Hashirama and Madara, and there is no "but they're dead" excuse because as seen in Jiraiya's conversation with Gamatora he suspected that Madara was still around. If he _seriously_ didn't think any one person could beat Hanzō Jiraiya was saying Hanzō > Madara, and I'm certain that's not what we're supposed to take from Jiraiya's sentiments.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 11, 2015)

Imma let you finish, but I'd just like to say that Black Zetsu saying that Itachi was "completely invincible" in defense and offense was the best hype OF ALL TIME.​


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 11, 2015)

I was leaning towards Turrin, but FlamingRain made a koala tea post, so now I'm not so sure.


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I follow you up to the point where you compare the use of ・ in Jiraiya's comment to its use in the databooks. Wouldn't the use in the databook be more akin to marking the beginning of a title being written than the word "and"?


The thing with the DB, is that the ・ isn't usually utilized that way [at least not to my knowledge], it's more of Kishi's own flair, which is why his usage in Jiriaya's statement peaks my interest. 



> If you think battle・medical Jutsu ("battle/combat-type medical Jutsu"?) goes too far yet think Jutsu still applies to both shouldn't you just say that it's supposed to mean something more along the lines of "battle Jutsu and medical Jutsu", which means essentially the same thing as "battle or medical Jutsu"? If so then that would just speak towards the dual-functioning nature of Tsunade's abilities (even if we read it as "combat-type medical Jutsu") as we've seen medical techniques be used for offensive purposes as well as supplementary (looking at Shosen overdose, Chakra Scalpels, Ranshinshō, and Chakra-charged strength here…). Jiraiya would just be speaking about both fighting and treatment, not simply talking about her healing skills being amazing for wars. If that was all he would have just mentioned her medicinal skills without the second mention of combat.


Jiraiya is speaking towards both her medical abilities and her abilities in combat, I never denied such. What I'm saying is that the statement doesn't necessarily mean that in Jiraiya's opinion Tsunade is the strongest Ninja. Having the best battle-Jutsu, best battle-medical-jutsu, or being the best in battle, no matter which way the text is translated it doesn't demand that Tsunade is thee "strongest".

Having the best battle-Jutsu _doesn't mean_, someone is the strongest because there is more to the strength of characters in this series than just their Jutsu's effectiveness in battle. Having the best battle-medical-Jutsu _doesn't mean_ make someone the strongest, it just makes their medical Ninjutsu the most suited to battle. Being the best in battle _doesn't make_ someone the strongest, because they could be the best for a combination of their strength, intelligence, knowledge, leadership, and medical capabilities, rather than just purely strength. 

That's my point --- For your argument that Jiriaya's statement about Tsunade contradicts his statement about Hanzo to work; Jiriaya's statement has to be saying Tsunade is the strongest Ninja. However no matter what translation we discuss, nothing forces that statement to mean that Tsunade is the strongest. Hence the point is moot.



> I also thought が meant something more like "but", than "and", and that it would read more like "he was a kind man but/despite that his willpower was intense". (I think that makes more sense anyway since people don't tend to associate kindness with intense/fierce willpower.) So wouldn't the difference actually be that in the Tsunade example battle and medical are supposed to be two things that simply pile into one whole additive whereas in the Minato example kind and fierce contrast with each other?


が can mean both:


And I don't necessarily find being "kind" and having great will-power to be contrasting themes in the Naruto-Manga. In-fact most of the kindest characters, have the fiercest will-power; Jiriaya, Hiruzen, Minato, and even the Main-Character himself.

In-fairness though I didn't really do a full translation of the statement, rather I was just looking for an example where Jiriaya used "and" w/o using the ・. So whether it's "and" or "but" i'd have to take a deeper look. 

But the overall point i'm trying to make doesn't change. There are plenty of ways Kishi could have said "and", but he makes the choice to use "・", something I've not seen appear in the Raw's outside of Jutsu. Granted I haven't read the entire manga from the Raws, but i've read a fair amount of different statements, and only in the Tsunade one is  "・" used.



> That's fine. I was just saying I didn't know why I should take you over the Viz.


I already explained why. Viz is not around to explain the meaning of the Japanese language prudent to this specific discussion. They do their best, but the more I go on the more mistakes [or liberties taken] I see, like in the case of the line about Naruto facing more troublesome opponents. I don't see how they could have possibly gotten "greater" or a singular "enemy" from that line.



> It doesn't make sense to distinguish battle from support unless he is talking about both her battle and support capabilities as two different things that nobody can stand shoulder to shoulder with. In order to satisfy your interpretation all he would have to do is bring up her medical abilities without reference to battle because he already brought up the war itself.


He's not distinguishing battle from support. He's distinguishing battle from being a medic. If one hears being a medic, they think of someone in a tent healing people, like how the the medical corps were acting in the 4th-War. So distinguishing what Tsunade does, which is be a battle medic, and sitting in a tent-healing people, is what's being distinguished there. Tsunade is great in battle _and_ just hanging back healing people

But the distinction is not suppose to be _strength_ and medical-jutsu, if Kishi meant that he would have just said "strength", there are plenty of words for "strength" in Japanese Kishi could have used and has indeed used throughout the course of the manga. "Battle" on the other hand leaves things open to interpretation. Is she the best in battle because she's the strongest or is it the sum total of multiple qualities, I.E. she's not the strongest, but she is the most effective because of her leadership, intelligence, knowledge, medical capabilities, and strength combined. Also bare in mind things like leadership, intelligence, and knowledge are not medical techniques, yet are extremely important in determining ones effectiveness _in_ battle. Additionally something like Kuchiyose: Katsuya is an integral part of what makes Tsunade's support capabilities so effective, but Kuchiyose _is not_ a medical technique.

Again your critique requires Jiraiya's statement to mean Tsunade is the "strongest", but with my translation insight aside, and even in Viz's translation Jiraiya's meaning is left ambiguous and for time to clarify. Now time has passed, and it makes more sense that Jiraiya would be talking about Tsunade's abilities holistically making her the best, rather than her being the strongest ninja in Jiraiya's opinion. While what your doing is going so far as realizing that Tsunade being the "strongest" doesn't make sense, but not considering their is very valid alternative interpretation of Jiraiya's words that does.



> I'm getting at exactly what I said: that the potential Hanzō saw in Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru was the ability we know of the Sannin today, that that's what it means to be one of the Sannin and that that's what Hanzō wanted to be associated with, not the power of the far inferior striplings that he beat up. I'm saying that I disagree with Rocky that their power increase wasn't that drastic, and I think Hanzō gave them the title counting on them to go and make themselves famous. Hanzō didn't make them famous- they'd have been famous regardless of whether or not they ever fought Hanzō, it's just that when they did fight Hanzō he realized that, saw an opportunity to spread his own name, and took it.


Here I disagree completely. I don't see anything in the Manga that indicates Hanzo gave Jiriaya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru their title in-order to spread his own name. Hanzo was already an extremely famous Ninja at that point, who people fled from, as the Mifune flashback illustrates. Hanzo didn't even ask the Sannin to spread the word that he gave them their title. In-fact no one has even shown knowledge that this is where the Sannin title came from besides a Sannin themselves. In-fact unless i'm missing something substantial [which is possible], I really don't know where your getting this idea from at all.

If I were to guess on Hanzo's motivation for giving them the title, I would go with the reason Hanzo actually gave in the manga; that he gave them the title out of respect for their strength, and if there were anything beyond that I'd go with the other reason he's given for sparing another person's life [Mifune's], I.E. to once against test his own resolve on the Sannin. 

That's not to say I disagree with you that the Sannin got a-lot stronger than back then, but there is serious difference from becoming a-lot stronger, and becoming so much stronger that 1 Sannin is now _vastly superior_ to _all_ of the sannin from back then combined.


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2015)

> They don't have to be concerned about ultra-fans debating. Viz translation is paid to capture the feeling and meaning of the text in a way that flows well for english-speaking audiences.


Sure, but not in the context of strength debates where minor things can make a world of difference.

Let's take the Viz translation "Someday you will face an enemy even greater than Orochimaru", for example.

When someone is reads this normally it's a perfectly acceptable translation, because it convey's the general meaning of the text well, that Naruto will be going up against a greater threat than Orochimaru in the future.

However, in our ultra specific discussion, something as small as whether Jiraiya says "enemy" or multiple "opponents" matters; or says "greater" rather than "troublesome", matters as we are trying to define the nature of that "threat" from the text.



> The reason we have to believe it isn't straightforward is a matter of usage likelihood. People usually mean they don't actually believe what they're being told when they use the phrases "far-fetched" and/or "yeah, right", as opposed to "unbelievable", which people normally use when they mean something is extraordinary or astonishing. So, as far as conveying the original meaning and feeling to english speaking audiences those would be much better choices. That's an easy thing to do because it flows every bit as easily, and yet it changes the tone. It's too easy to explain it away by just saying "it doesn't get conveyed in english very well".


Firstly your not asking Viz to translate for english speakers, your asking Viz to translate specifically to your liking. Because if I hear someone say "yeah-right" i'm going to take there strength of emotion and conviction in the statement less seriously than, "unbelievable!". So whose right here and more representative of "english-speakers"; the answer is no one. "English-Speakers" in different regions, generations, up-brings, etc.. will inherently have different interpretations of what language is more direct and serious. And if Viz does what your saying they do, I.E. just add english expressions in to try and cross the linguistic divided, that is going to be hit and miss; just like we have an example of here, where you think "yeah, right" would convey Jiriaya's disbelief better than "unbelievable", while I think the opposite. That hit and miss style of rewrites, doesn't seem nearly as reliable as someone who is trying to translate as close to the original Japanese-text as possible, for strength-debates where accuracy is key.

Ether way though, we don't need to the translation to know this is a rumor, because it quite literally is presented as that in the manga. So unless you think Jiriaya is a preteen that will take any gossip to be the real deal, than I don't see how Jiriaya not immediately cowering in fear over a rumor is some how a bigger reflection of his thoughts on Hanzo's strength than his direct statements, and fuck the DB supports Jiriaya's feelings that Hanzo was unrivaled, by citing how many people held the same belief, _"He ran on the battlefield riding his summoned salamander, a man who's name roared as unrivalled among shinobi."_. I just really don't.



> hat excuse is weak as I don't know what; so weak that I'd much sooner assume that the real problem is just this:


I think this is pretty unfair of you, and these types of weak personal attacks only usually appear when one side is loosing the argument. It would be one thing, if I was intentionally being unfair and twisting things to benefit my argument. However I've gone out of my way to be fair to beliefs opposing mine. I'm not arguing that Nagato's statement means Prime-Hanzo was equal to him, even-though it could be taken that way on face value. I'm not simply presenting the Viz-Translation of "a greater enemy" than Orochimaru, because it supports my argument, I went out of my way to take a look at the Raw and concede these points because I got things from the Raw, that coincide with your points. I'm going out of my way to show my work for translations and why I believe certain things, and so on. There is absolute no reason to accuse someone of bias, simply because they are a fan of a character. I know for a fact that your a fan of the Sannin, so should I just say your interpretation of "unbelievable" is color'd by your Sannin-Fandom?



> . Even if the Amegakure fodder didn't know the specifics of Pain's abilities he couldn't have been so ignorant as to not even realize when a civil war had ended,


Okay, Pain literally is 6 individual bodies, yet the Amegakuru fodder was ignorant of this fact. So despite knowing a civil war ended [note-I never argued the fodder was that out of touch], the Amegakuru fodder was ignorant that six individual bodies defeated Hanzo. So it's very clear that he just heard some single individual defeat Pain, rather than knowing all the specifics, and it's very clear that more than one individual could have ganged up on Hanzo with the Amegakuru-Fodder still being left believing a single individual did so, considering he didn't know six-bodies fought Hanzo. So _quite literally_ the Amegakuru-fodder is repeating a second hand rumor, which he had no deep knowledge of.



> and what could have caused that other than Hanzō dying, apparently without witnesses (if nobody was there to see then that implies nobody was there helping Pain)?


I fail to see how Pain can keep all of his abilities and more importantly the fact that he is conglomerate of six individual bodies secret from the Amegakuru-Fodder, yet some how couldn't keep it a secret that he had the help of another Akatsuki member. Fuck given the Amegakuru-Fodder's total lack of knowledge on the Paths, he could logically have kept it a secret from the Amegakuru-Fodder that 5 other Akatsuki members helped him.

Edit: Hell in a manga about mystical ninja with memory erasing techniques [which Pain or Konan did indeed employ], this is even less surprising. What would be surprising is a legendary sannin not being aware of such techniques.



> I would have but I lost volume 27 a while ago, and eh...I don't think that translation "destroys" my point. It might undercut it but it may not do that either, because "an enemy" could still mean a person, it could mean a small group, and it could even be taken to mean an army really.


The point I was trying to make with bring up the Viz, is it doesn't matter to me that their translation is more beneficial, I agree with your points being plausible, because what I get from the Raw-Text matches what your saying.



> Jiraiya stated that they didn't know the full details, so he may not have known if there even was a leader back then (and by Part 2 he still didn't know what the leader's name was). He only indicated that he knew the nine members all joined voluntarily.


It doesn't matter if he knew there was a leader back then or not, what matters is that he knew there was a leader when making his statements about Hanzo.



> So long as Jiraiya had no good reason to think Orochimaru's level of power was typical of individual Akatsuki members I don't see the problem with Jiraiya being surprised that someone could solo Hanzō and yet still figuring himself to most likely be able to take said person on.


It's perfectly reasonable for Jiraiya to believe some, if not many of the members were weaker than Orochimaru. The problem is Pain was not just a _typical member_ of Akatsuki, he was _the leader_. The fact of the matter is your interpretation is basically demanding that I believe the following:

-- Jiriaya considered it impossible [or at least next to impossible] that the Leader of Akatsuki was even as strong as Orochimaru. As otherwise if he thought that was an option it would not shock Jiriaya so much that someone who could be >= Orochimaru, defeated Hanzo, if Hanzo is weaker than Orochimaru. --

Not only do I find that insulting to Jiraiya's intelligence, but insulting to the reader's intelligence if that's what Kishi was really going for. Because the natural assumption anyone would make is that the Leader is _likely_ stronger than his subordinates or at the very least as strong as his top subordinate. That's not to say it's impossible the Leader, could be weaker than one of his subordinates, but it's the much less likely option. So for Jiraiya to believe the less likely option, so definitively that he is left flabergasted that the Leader solo'd Hanzo, makes no sense to me, and it makes no sense to me that Kishi would expect readers to interpret that scene as Jiraiya and the manga working under the assumption of said less likely option. 

Anyway I believe we should, and I know I at the very least expect Jiraiya to not be a total idiot to the point where he can't even imagine a scenario where the Leader who has some of the strongest  and most cut throat shinobi in the world as his subordinates [including Orochimaru at one point], is >= Orochimaru. 

And beyond that once again the DB reinforces the idea of Hanzo being unrivaled as something many believed, not just Jiraiya. So rather than Jiriaya being a total moron, I think the idea that Hanzo was simply viewed by Jiriaya and others as a more powerful shinobi than Orochimaru, makes a whole lot more sense.



> mean forgetting everything else, everybody and their mama knew about Hashirama and Madara, and there is no "but they're dead" excuse because as seen in Jiraiya's conversation with Gamatora he suspected that Madara was still around. If he seriously didn't think any one person could beat Hanzō Jiraiya was saying Hanzō > Madara, and I'm certain that's not what we're supposed to take from Jiraiya's sentiments.


I think there is a major difference for not accounting for the strength of individuals that were the stuff of myth and folklore, as well as factoring in his own completely unsubstantiated "premonition" that Madara may have something to do with the Kyuubi-attack, in his initial reaction to Hanzo's defeat than Jiraiya not accounting for the strenght of an individual he knows personally and even knows was once a part of Akatsuki, such as Orochimaru


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 12, 2015)

While I don't doubt that Hanzou in his prime was stronger than he was just before he died, the difference isn't _massive_. The Sannin that fought Hanzou were a lot weaker than they were in their 50s, as they didn't possess or use their most powerful techniques eg. White Snake Power, Byakugou, and Sage Mode. When Jiraiya comments on Hanzou's power he did so in reference to a man that could defeat a much weaker version of the Legendary Trio. 

That said, the Sannin in their youth still had access to advanced elemental ninjutsu, medical ninjutsu, fuinjutsu, high level taijutsu and summons. Hanzou was obviously very powerful to be able to handle all of those things by himself.

I'd say he was probably a Low-High Kage level / High-Mid Kage level shinobi, around the same strength as the likes of Onoki, the current Sannin and Tobirama. Those are probably the strongest opponents he competes with, though the strongest he could definitely defeat are the likes of Ei or Kisame.​​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 12, 2015)

Prime thing is overrated. It is simply used to hype a certain character from a narrative perspective, without any substantial  thought behind it. 

We've seen Edo(prime) Hiruzen. He was still shit.

Prime Hanzo(AKA EDO Hanzo + resolve or some other emotional shit) isn't going to overshadow his performance we've seen in the war arc.

Jiriaya's words are mere hype for a filler dead character. They don't make any sense either, given Jiraiya was surprised that Hanzo was defeated by a single man and then he proceeded to take on that man and attempted defeat him anyway. 
Add that up to what we've seen from Hanzo against Mifune, and you don'T get anything special. 
Hanzo would be a formidable part 1 character.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 12, 2015)

Maybe the original point of that hype was about that "single man". With Pain turning out to be 6 men. I wonder if there is an actual emphasis on the number in Jiraiya's words.


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> While I don't doubt that Hanzou in his prime was stronger than he was just before he died, the difference isn't _massive_.​



I honestly don't think the difference has to be massive. Rusty-Hanzo himself is just underestimated because Kishi tailored the situation perfectly to result in Hanzo's "loss". 

Mifune was specifically resistant to salamander poison, due to a prior run in with Hanzo. A run in that Hanzo conveniently forgot occurred, until Mifune land his attack. If Mifune was not resistant to the poison, the match would have ended here [1]. If Hanzo had remember Mifune's resistance, he would not have wasted Ibusei, by having him attempt to poison Mifune, getting it's head cut off. If Mifune was not poison resistant, the match would have ether ended the moment Hanzo's mask came off, or Mifune wouldn't have been able to follow through with his strike for fear of being poisoned. 
.
Hanzo doesn't need huge increases to stomp/low diff Mifune. Rusty Hanzo would have low-diff'd Mifune if Mifune wasn't resistant to his poison, heck he would have outright stomped him in the first few moments of the match if Ibusei hadn't just spent his pay load on the Ambush-Squad. Even with poison-resistance, Rusty-Hanzo could have still probably defeated Mifune, if he had remembered Mifune was poison resistant, and instead of wasting Ibusei, had Ibusei use his poison cloud to blind Mifune allowing him to gain distance to use Hand-Seals, or fuck even while Mifune was dealing with being swallowed cast hand-seals, instead of believing the poisoned had finished Mifune. If the match had started at any other range this also wouldn't have been an issue for Rusty-Hanzo.

The scenario Hanzo was in, amounts to putting character-A up against character-B, but having character-A give character-B the means to immune to one of his greatest abilities, while at the same time forgetting he'd done so. Almost any character that isn't starting to get close to the god-tiers, would have a tough time, if not loose in that scenario, considering character-B is no push over as one of the few men selected out of an 80,000 strong army to be a commander.



> The Sannin that fought Hanzou were a lot weaker than they were in their 50s, as they didn't possess or use their most powerful techniques eg. White Snake Power, Byakugou, and Sage Mode. When Jiraiya comments on Hanzou's power he did so in reference to a man that could defeat a much weaker version of the Legendary Trio.


Sure, but do you really think Byakugo [Retecon] and Edo-Tensei [Retecon] aside, that any of the Sannin, as of the Uchiha brothers arc, are so much stronger than their past selves that they could casually solo 1v3? I have some serious misgivings about that, as that makes younger-sannin seem quite fodderific, when the manga indicates they were already clearly strong enough to be worthy of such an esteemed title as the "sannin" in the first place.



> I'd say he was probably a Low-High Kage level / High-Mid Kage level shinobi, around the same strength as the likes of Onoki, the current Sannin and Tobirama. Those are probably the strongest opponents he competes with, though the strongest he could definitely defeat are the likes of Ei or Kisame.


I think the manga/data-book demands that he's at least a decent bit stronger than that. I really doubt Jiraiya is so shocked that Akatsuki-Leader Solo'd Hanzo, if Hanzo was around Sannin "level", considering a Sannin was once the Leader's subordinate. I really don't think Jiraiya would so shocked a single individual defeated Hanzo if there were that many Ninja he knew of, some he knew personally, that could defeat Hanzo. 

Than there's the DB, which states at one point he was considered unrivaled. Well I mean what era was that. It's hard to say for sure due to Hanzo's age, but we know it was during 1-3 possible eras, all of which are packed with strong as hell individuals.

If it was during the "Nindaime-Era", than he would need to be considered best, while characters like  Tobirama, Mu, Kinkaku/Ginkaku, and Gengetsu, where active.

If it was during the "Sandaime-Era", than he would need to be considered the best while characters like Sandaime-Raikage, Sandaime-Kazekage, Onoki [Prime?], and Prime-Hiruzen were active

If it was during the "Yondaime-Era", than he would need to be considered the best while characters like, Minato, Yagura, Onoki, and Ei were active.

In any of these Eras we have characters that are at least as strong  as a Sannin, if not a bit stronger, that Hanzo would need to overshadow.

And at the very least we know Prime-Chiyo and her enemy the White-Fang were active during Hanzo's heyday, and w/ speculation of Prime-Chiyo's strength aside, we know the White-Fang was suppose to be incredibly powerful himself, being above that guy alone should likely put Hanzo above an individual Sannin.

--------
Any-way if I were to estimate it, I probably say that Rusty-Hanzo is at the lower end of Mid-Kage, though it's hard to tell w/o seeing his Jutsu, and Prime-Hanzo is thee strongest Mid-Kage, and just falls a bit short of the next tier as he lacks Kaguya-Hax.

I consider Mifune Low-Kage, so him needing such a major advantage to not be defeated by Rusty-Hanzo, makes it hard for me to see Rusty-Hanzo as Low-Kage. At absolute worst, I could see an argument for Mifune being one of the weakest Low-Kage and Hanzo being one of the strongest, but I think that does a diservice to Mifune, and I also find that problematic when I can see Rusty-Hanzo beating Mid-Kages, w/o getting a chance to really display hardly any of his Jutsu and only having 2 chapters worth of panel time to accumulate feats, due to how OP some of his abilities are.

Prime-Hanzo given Jiriaya's reaction, DB statements, and historical significance of his name should be at the top, if not thee strongest of the Mid-Kage, which is is the tier I pretty much place all characters that don't start having major Kaguya-hax on.



Alex Payne said:


> Maybe the original point of that hype was about that "single man". With Pain turning out to be 6 men. I wonder if there is an actual emphasis on the number in Jiraiya's words.


I certainly think this is the reason why Kishi had Jiriaya say "merely one person", instead of just saying Hanzo is unrivaled in strength like the Data-book does, to hint at Pain's ability. However the message is still Hanzo being unrivaled.​


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## FlamingRain (Apr 12, 2015)

Goodness, Turrin. Imma need you to figure out how to make shorter posts.

I might be replying in increments otherwise.



Turrin said:


> The thing with the DB, is that the ・ isn't usually utilized that way [at least not to my knowledge], it's more of Kishi's own flair, which is why his usage in Jiriaya's statement peaks my interest.



You mean piques*?

It _is_ utilized that way if it's being used to separate types from the specific techniques in question.

陰封印・解

Infūin: Kai, not Yin Seal _and_ Unravel/Release

結界・天蓋法陣

Kekkai: Tengai Hōjin, not Barrier _and_ Canopy Method Formation



> I already explained why.



I said I didn't know why I should take you over the Viz _before_ you ever tried explaining, though…

Before you label it a mistake ask yourself:

"Greater than" in what sense? A greater trouble maybe?

Does "enemy" necessarily refer to an individual or can it refer to a team, group, army, etc. as well?

Those kinds of liberties aren't things I would label mistakes, nor do I find that diction more problematic than "troublesome" and "opponents".



> He's not distinguishing battle from support. He's distinguishing battle from being a medic.



There are field medics just like there are tent-medics, though; there is only something to be distinguished from battle if he is referring to the support role. Tsunade tried to _kill_ Orochimaru with a _medical Jutsu_, Tsunade's first _fight_ in the series took place in a chapter titled _"medical ninja"_ with the combatants both using _medical Jutsu_ to go at it, and during the Five Kage vs. Madara battle it was already obvious that Tsunade wasn't a tent-medic but then she still pointed out to Madara that she wasn't _just_ a medic _as she attacked him_, i.e.- she was saying she wasn't _just_ a support-type.

So, all Jiraiya would do is bring up her medical abilities without the second reference to battle because he already brought up the war itself, _unless_ he's referring also to her own fighting ability in the same light.

And Tsunade didn't have her seal in her flashbacks with Dan and Nawaki, while Orochimaru was unfamiliar with her release and application of its contents during the Sannin Showdown, implying that she developed it and Sōzō Saisei _after_ the war. The Katsuyu distance healing uses the link shared via the seal- and she obviously can't do that without....having the seal...so...



> There is serious difference from becoming a-lot stronger, and becoming so much stronger that 1 Sannin is now _vastly superior_ to _all_ of the sannin from back then combined.



It's also a difference we can only weigh if we actually know what the Sannin could and could not do at the time of the Hanzō fight, and we simply aren't in a position to know that. Why? Because the Second Great Ninja War didn't start and end with Hanzō, it lasted several years, and because when Hanzō said they were strong we still have to wonder "in relation to what".

We can certainly  rule out them having had certain abilities at the time, but as far as confirming which ones they did have? Good luck. I mean we can say things like Orochimaru had yet to begin experimenting on his own body because Tsunade and Jiraiya were surprised that he could take one of Tsunade's shots and only ever figured out that he was in a different body at the end of the fight, that Tsunade didn't have the seal or regeneration because it wasn't there in her flashbacks with Dan and Nawaki while Orochimaru was unfamiliar with her release and application of its contents during the Sannin Showdown, we can say that Jiraiya didn't have Magen: Gamarinshō because he didn't even know what it was until the fight with Pain, but we _can't_ even say things like whether or not Tsunade was a medical ninja at that point (though Jiraiya's hair was longer in the scene where Tsunade found out about Nawaki's death than it was in the scene where they fought Hanzō), or whether or not Jiraiya had techniques like Doton: Yomi Numa (though I didn't see any swamps anywhere on that field)

If the Sannin were all around Part 1 Kakashi's level then yes I think one of them currently could solo all three of them in the past in a stomp, and for all we know they could have been there as of that fight.



> Firstly your not asking Viz to translate for english speakers, your asking Viz to translate specifically to your liking.



You're attacking a straw man. I'm not asking Viz to translate specifically to my liking; notice I never said "_I_ usually mean _I_ don't actually believe what _I'm_ being told when _I_ use the phrases 'far-fetched' and/or 'yeah, right', as opposed to 'unbelievable', which _I_ normally use when _I_ mean something is extraordinary or astonishing," what I said was "_people_ usually mean _they_ don't actually believe what _they're_ being told when _they_ use the phrases 'far-fetched' and/or 'yeah, right', as opposed to 'unbelievable', which _people_ normally use when _they_ mean something is extraordinary or astonishing,". I'm not using myself as a representative, I'm using the hundreds of people that I've seen and heard say those things, all over the place and from several age groups; it wouldn't be rational for me, or anyone else such as yourself, to do otherwise. So when you just say _you'll_ take those other expressions as a figure of speech and not "unbelievable" I quite frankly _don't see why *I* should care_, though if you want to continue to disagree that's all you.

I never contested the fact that Pain soloing Hanzō was a rumor (at least as far as that Amegakure shinobi was concerned) either. I don't need to, _because people buy into rumors_, especially widespread rumors (Jiraiya said that just strolling about the city almost everyone mentioned Pain with the utmost respect) that they can't rebut the claims to (and how would Jiraiya go about doing that?)



> I think this is pretty unfair of you, and these types of weak personal attacks only usually appear when one side is loosing the argument.



I sure didn't feel like I was "losing" when I posted that, nor do I feel like I'm "losing" now that you've responded to said post, because I'm actually (one of the apparent few) educated enough to realize that where your objection comes from doesn't necessarily determine whether or not your objection is true (somebody can get the right answer to something without thinking clearly), so no. "You're biased" isn't an argument, and I didn't use it as one just then. I'm just saying that what you're telling me sounds like it's pretty out there, just from where I'm starting at, I don't believe you to begin with and on top of/besides that, you have a plausible motive, which just doesn't do you any favors as far as convincing me that I should trust your interpretation instead.

My interpretation of "unbelievable" is colored by me actually having a social life and not being locked in my basement all the time- _I actually talk to people_- it has nothing to do with my fondness of the Sannin (though if you want to suggest that it does then go right ahead), and neither do my would-be interpretations of "far-fetched" and "yeah, right".

I don't even know what I have to gain to gain here: virtually everybody in the BD who knows me already knows I rate each of the Sannin higher than most, and since I've been here they seem to have risen in the eyes of quite a few. Meanwhile the only Hanzō I've ever tried to place on a tier list is the rusty one. So what if Hanzō actually _is_ stronger than a current Sannin after all? What does that mean for me and my Sannin fandom? Does it mean that Hiruzen was telling a blatant lie when he said that not even he would be able to beat Orochimaru? Does it mean Jiraiya wasn't about to one-shot Kisame were it not for Itachi? Does it mean that Shikaku didn't call Tsunade the strongest woman in the world? Does it mean Sasuke didn't admit that he only ever beat Orochimaru because he couldn't use his arms? Does it mean that Pain didn't call Jiraiya a threat and was lying when he said Jiraiya would've beaten him if he only had more knowledge? Does it mean that Tsunade didn't make Madara rescind his "weak Senju woman" comment? No, no, no, no, no, and no. And no.

Every argument I make for the Sannin now I can still make if Hanzō is stronger than they are, so what do you think I'm after when I contest Hanzō being their superior? I've got nothing to lose here. On the other hand, since the Sannin are (generally) more respected in the BD than Hanzō is  you actually have something to gain. If you can convince people that the Sannin think Hanzō is their superior, you can raise the general perception of him significantly.



> Okay, Pain literally is 6 individual bodies, yet the Amegakuru fodder was ignorant of this fact.



Nagato refers to the bodies collectively as "Pain", so in that sense Pain is one entity. What incentive did Nagato have to keep a detail another member of Akatsuki helped him a secret were that the case. Are the underlings of Akatsuki not going to want to be a part of Akatsuki anymore? Said underlings actually explained that the only reason he kept his identity a secret was in case somebody got captured and was interrogated. If more than one member of Akatsuki was involved in the killing of Hanzō wouldn't that story actually make it even harder for those remnant factions to track down their targets because they could be in multiple places (and thus provide an even better "defense" against them)?



> The problem is Pain was not just a _typical member_ of Akatsuki, he was _the leader_.



I was just saying.

Question, Turrin: does being the leader always mean somebody is superior to everyone else? Was Yahiko stronger than Nagato back in the day?

I also think you're forgetting one possibility here when you talk about what I'm supposedly demand you to believe. Because what if…stay with me now…Jiraiya would have found it astonishing that Orochimaru wasn't the strongest individual member of Akatsuki when he was there? Entertain that notion and you see that I'm not really demanding you to believe what you allege.



> And beyond that once again the DB reinforces the idea of Hanzo being unrivaled.



The databooks also say Tsunade is unstoppable and nobody who confronts Sasuke stands a chance at living.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 12, 2015)

By the way:



> I think there is a major difference for not accounting for the strength of individuals that were the stuff of myth and folklore, as well as factoring in his own completely unsubstantiated "premonition" that Madara may have something to do with the Kyuubi-attack, in his initial reaction to Hanzo's defeat than Jiraiya not accounting for the strenght of an individual he knows personally and even knows was once a part of Akatsuki, such as Orochimaru



*1.)* That was _Hashirama_, not Madara.

*2.)* The ninja of the Hidden Leaf at least from Jiraiya's generation back didn't seem to be the ones counting it as mere myth. Tsunade didn't question her grandaddy fighting someone as strong as Madara when he busted out that Jutsu during which the significantly younger Kabuto remarked that the people who heard about him considered him a fairy tale; she only did that after Final Susano'o came out, as if she could buy everything before that (which is enough to say Hanzō doesn't even compare).

*3.)* Jiraiya only had that opinion because of Minato's actions and how well he knew him, so it wasn't unsubstantiated.


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## Turrin (Apr 12, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I'm just saying that what you're telling me sounds like it's pretty out there, just from where I'm starting at, I don't believe you to begin with and on top of/besides that, you have a plausible motive, which just doesn't do you any favors as far as convincing me that I should trust your interpretation instead.
> 
> My interpretation of "unbelievable" is colored by me actually having a social life and not being locked in my basement all the time- _I actually talk to people_- it has nothing to do with my fondness of the Sannin (though if you want to suggest that it does then go right ahead), and neither do my would-be interpretations of "far-fetched" and "yeah, right".


I'm sorry, but how is this not an accusation of Bias. Fuck it seems like an accusation that I don't have a social life and therefore don't understand what "unbelievable" means in a social setting. That is an attack on my character and not an actual point germane to the discussion. Sorry, but all I get from this is you feel you are loosing the argument and have thus defaulted to attacking my character, with absolutely no reason to do so.

I'll get to the rest later, but I find this particular part insulting and even more makes me call into question your motives, which is a shame, because previously I had mad respect for you, hence me going to great lengths to discuss this topic with you, and never questioned you motives until now.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 12, 2015)

There was such an accusation of bias, I just mean that _the accusation wasn't my argument_, because somebody can get the right answer even if for the "wrong" reasons. It was more of me...typing out the flow of my thinking as I went through it, if you will...


Though I _didn't_ intend to come off as really implying _you_ had no social life, or that you were locked in your basement all the time (I don't even have a basement to be locked in, so when I said that I wasn't serious...).

That was harsh of me to even throw that in the post, though, so I apologize.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 12, 2015)

I've been in my basement for 12 years. Biding my time.


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2015)

After reading all the posts. hanzo is low kage level
ibuse poison gas is a battle field changer and is hax but when we compare said ability to what Mei can do. acid mist on the whole battle field 
poison gas becomes less impressive. Also note that despite its AoE its not a fast jutsu. therefore getting out of the way is perfectly possible. 

the difficult bit is the poison gas acts as a smoke screen which allows for hanzo gun powder technique as well ibuse hiding out for the next 5 minutes. 

these 2 things alone allow hanzo to beat most people, however when considerign level. it should be just about who he can beat but his techniques themselves. 

Ei is either mid or  high depending on what people think and he absolutely entirely low diffs hanzo. something that shouldnt happen to people on the same level


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> After reading all the posts. hanzo is low kage level
> ibuse poison gas is a battle field changer and is hax but when we compare said ability to what Mei can do. acid mist on the whole battle field
> poison gas becomes less impressive. Also note that despite its AoE its not a fast jutsu. therefore getting out of the way is perfectly possible.
> 
> ...



Hanzou's own breath is posionous and can much more effective than Ibuse's. His weapons also have poison on them. 

Not to mention his explosive seals that have showed to be able to cripple even Nagato.

Hanzou is also an expert in the art of taijutsu anc kenjutsu, and much faster than Mei, and I'm talking about the old rusty Hanzou.

Hanzou also knows to use suitons.

Old Hanzou is a indeed and low Kage level, a high low level Kage. But prime Hanzou is much more powerful, a solid high level Kage.


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2015)

it cant be more effective though. he risks getting trolled by his poison sack if he doesnt keep his mask on.

yes they crippled nagato no doubt. however they have to be placed there. if he could summon them at will then certainly would be hax 

yes he is a good kenjutsu user no doubt. of course he is faster than Mei. never doubted that 

yes hanzo can use suitons. but lets not compare them to Mei or kisame. 

for me the strongest low kage level is Mei and i believe she would flat out beat him. her Acid mist could casually cover the same range as Ibuse poison however its quicker to use.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> it cant be more effective though. he risks getting trolled by his poison sack if he doesnt keep his mask on.
> 
> yes they crippled nagato no doubt. however they have to be placed there. if he could summon them at will then certainly would be hax
> 
> ...



Only by cutting attacks. If his enemy doesn't use swords or any cutting attack then Hanzou can take his mask off, or if he sees that he has no other choice.

We don't know if he prepared the attack before or not. In any case we have seen other ninjas of the rain that could control paper and that could use it like Hanzou, so at least we know that Hanzou can move the explosive tags at will.

I doubt Mei can defeat even old rusty Hanzou. Even if the starting distance didn't allow Hanzou to cut her head with his weapon, he can always summon Ibuse under her and kill her with the posion.


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2015)

entirely true. he will certainly take his mask off against the likes of hiash. though targetting that area will jukken will still rupture the sack. so i think he will always keep in on. its too big a risk 

Read the Db. his fire jutsu is a prepped jutsu. 

he can move them towards the user however they must be placed there. either read Db or ask turrin he translated it 

Mei should be able to she barfs mist and hanzo either must evade it or die. same way she can evade ibuse poison gas.  however she can use her jutsu quicker than hanzo can summon ibuse and ibuse uses his jutsu also. she can keep using mist back to back. ibuse must wait 5 minutes 

i doubt at any distance hanzo is so fast with (no feats!) that he can cut her head off before she can form a seal when she used 2 jutsu back to back against madara. 

her seal speed is impressive

also surviving against 5 mokuton susanoo clones>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>loosing to mifune


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> entirely true. he will certainly take his mask off against the likes of hiash. though targetting that area will jukken will still rupture the sack. so i think he will always keep in on. its too big a risk
> 
> Read the Db. his fire jutsu is a prepped jutsu.
> 
> ...



Even if It's a prep jutsu, he can still control paper like Konan and explosive tags are regular equipment of the ninjas, so he can use the exploive tagsin a better way than almost any other ninja.

Mei's mist hasn't shown to instant kill, and Hanzou is fast enough to dodge it.

Mei wouldn't have survived if she wasn't saved by Gaara.


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2015)

yes he can. however it been prep makes it impractical to use in battle. unless prep is allowed 

he cant use explosive tags better than tobirama or konan or even sai. btw those are the only 3 ninja who use explosive tags to fight or as a way of fighting

so the statement is false. of course he uses explosive tags better than people like tsunade etc who dont use it 

however if u compare him to people who use explosive tags he is thee worst user 

No it hasnt shown instant kill. nor has any of hanzo jutus. doesnt mean it cant. 

also if hanzo is fast enough to dodge Mei acid. Mei is fast enough to dodge poison gas with no speed attached to it 

yes she wouldnt have true. however its still a better feat. Also hanzo must summon before he uses poison gas. mei can acid mist the battle field casually 

anywayz made a non spite thread for it. so we can discuss it there


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> yes he can. however it been prep makes it impractical to use in battle. unless prep is allowed
> 
> he cant use explosive tags better than tobirama or konan or even sai. btw those are the only 3 ninja who use explosive tags to fight or as a way of fighting
> 
> ...



Hiruzen, Shikamaru and Naruto has use the explosive tags in more than one fight.

Hanzou can control the explosive tags and send them flying to the enemy's body.

Ibuse's poison's spreading speed was impressive and caught the ambush squad easily. Mei can't dodge it.

A non spite thread?


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2015)

yes but they dont use it as a style of fighting. u are grasping at straws and u know it 
yes and sai can draw them out litteraly draw them out and put them on birds which fly at u then explode

yes a non spite thread dont be bitter i am curious cuz i find it ridiculous that hanzo must first summon ibuse to spread poison while Mei can do the same with acid mist with no need of a summon. 

as for coming close to Mei. didnt she already instantly melt a zetsu who tried that .so comign close to either of them is dangerous as well 

anyone could catch the ambush squad though. it had kankuro and the rest were fodder. u saying Mei jutsu cant catch kankuro?


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> yes but they dont use it as a style of fighting. u are grasping at straws and u know it
> yes and sai can draw them out litteraly draw them out and put them on birds which fly at u then explode



Neither does Hanzou. Hanzou's fighting style is based on his poison and taijutsu. Explosive tags seems to be an add, a complement. 

For example he used it against Nagato or against the Konoha squad the sannin belong to.



Icegaze said:


> yes a non spite thread dont be bitter i am curious cuz i find it ridiculous that hanzo must first summon ibuse to spread poison while Mei can do the same with acid mist with no need of a summon.
> 
> as for coming close to Mei. didnt she already instantly melt a zetsu who tried that .so comign close to either of them is dangerous as well
> 
> anyone could catch the ambush squad though. it had kankuro and the rest were fodder. u saying Mei jutsu cant catch kankuro?



Omoi and Sai were part of the ambush team.

And Hanzou doesn't need to summon Ibuse from the beginning, he can start with a shunshin+kenjutsu and make Mei unable to use any jutsu.


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2015)

fair enough was simply countering the statement that hanzo can use it alot better than most when very few ninja have actually used explosive tags in battle

yes omoi and sai were part of the team. whats ur point? they are specks of dust to hanzo and any kage level shinobi

why would Mei be unable to use any jutus? 

thats mifune trick not hanzo's. Mei can use jutsu very quick as shown against madara. she will have zero issues using jutsu against hanzo. none at all 

nice hand me down u just gave hanzo though


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> fair enough was simply countering the statement that hanzo can use it alot better than most when very few ninja have actually used explosive tags in battle
> 
> yes omoi and sai were part of the team. whats ur point? they are specks of dust to hanzo and any kage level shinobi
> 
> ...



Sai blitzed Deidara and Sasori.

Hanzou is faster than Mei his ttacks are faster and that speed difference makes so that Mei can only counter his jutsus if anything.

For example if Hanzou shunshins right next to her and tries to slash her, she'll only have to dodge, if Hanzou keeps attacking Mei will only be abe to counter at most.


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## Turrin (Apr 13, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It _is_ utilized that way if it's being used to separate types from the specific techniques in question.
> 
> 陰封印・解
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure that's what I said two posts back, which is why I said it _might_ be prudent to translate the line about Tsunade, as Battle・Medical Jutsu.



> Before you label it a mistake ask yourself:
> 
> "Greater than" in what sense? A greater trouble maybe?
> 
> ...


But at least you can admit that there are indeed liberties taken. And whether or not you take issue with said liberties, I personally find it problematic to use a liberal translation when we are arguing specifics. 



> There are field medics just like there are tent-medics, though; there is only something to be distinguished from battle if he is referring to the support role. Tsunade tried to kill Orochimaru with a medical Jutsu, Tsunade's first fight in the series took place in a chapter titled "medical ninja" with the combatants both using medical Jutsu to go at it, and during the Five Kage vs. Madara battle it was already obvious that Tsunade wasn't a tent-medic but then she still pointed out to Madara that she wasn't just a medic as she attacked him, i.e.- she was saying she wasn't just a support-type.


The problem is you have to put yourself back in the head-space of Part I. Now we've seen plenty of battle medics, but back at the start of the Sannin-Arc, we'd never really seen medical ninjutsu used in combat before. So distinguishing Tsunade as a battle-medic, was important.



> So, all Jiraiya would do is bring up her medical abilities without the second reference to battle because he already brought up the war itself, unless he's referring also to her own fighting ability in the same ligh


Here's my question, medical-jutsu aside, is how good someone is in battle, completely dependent on their strength or can it be the sum total of multiple factors; _yes or no_?



> And Tsunade didn't have her seal in her flashbacks with Dan and Nawaki, while Orochimaru was unfamiliar with her release and application of its contents during the Sannin Showdown, implying that she developed it and Sōzō Saisei after the war. The Katsuyu distance healing uses the link shared via the seal- and she obviously can't do that without....having the seal...so...


Well first DBIV states that Katsuya has her own restoration abilities. Secondly Katsuya can still wrap herself around allies to act as a shield or carry wounded off the battlefield. She's still excellent at support even w/o the Byakugou-Seal and Sozo Saisei.



> We can certainly rule out them having had certain abilities at the time, but as far as confirming which ones they did have? Good luck. I mean we can say things like Orochimaru had yet to begin experimenting on his own body because Tsunade and Jiraiya were surprised that he could take one of Tsunade's shots and only ever figured out that he was in a different body at the end of the fight, that Tsunade didn't have the seal or regeneration because it wasn't there in her flashbacks with Dan and Nawaki while Orochimaru was unfamiliar with her release and application of its contents during the Sannin Showdown, we can say that Jiraiya didn't have Magen: Gamarinshō because he didn't even know what it was until the fight with Pain, but we can't even say things like whether or not Tsunade was a medical ninja at that point (though Jiraiya's hair was longer in the scene where Tsunade found out about Nawaki's death than it was in the scene where they fought Hanzō), or whether or not Jiraiya had techniques like Doton: Yomi Numa (though I didn't see any swamps anywhere on that field)


I never thought they had all of their abilities in the first place. I don't think they had Sousou Saisei, Sennnin-Modo, Hydra, Edo-Tensei, etc... But I think your underestimating the things that we can assume.

We know Jiraiya was already proficient in Katon Ninjutsu, could use Kage-Bushin, and was skill enough to teach the fundamentals of every nature alteration to Nagato/Yahiko and even Kami techniques to Konan. And considering Jiraiya is that skilled in Ninjutsu at that point, I would assume the genius and ninjutsu freak Orochimaru is even more skilled and Tsunade is at least somewhere around there. We know that Tsunade had her herculean strength, because apparently she had that even back when Hashirama was alive, and we can be fairly certain she had her medical skills back then as Chiyo talks about how Tsunade used to use her medical techniques to counter her poisons in the 2nd Shinobi-War. We also know Jiraiya had his Toad summons back then because he visits the Toad-Sennin around the same time, and we can be pretty sure Orochimaru and Tsunade did as well, considering their whole title of "Sannin" comes from the Toad/Slug/Snake.

So we basically have three Ninja who should be at least well above average in Ninjutsu skill, each with their own unique techniques they bring to the table, a well than above average medic who also has high combat proficiency, and each having powerful summons at their disposal. I don't think any of the current Sannin are Low-Diff or Stomping that. 



> If the Sannin were all around Part 1 Kakashi's level then yes I think one of them currently could solo all three of them in the past in a stomp, and for all we know they could have been there as of that fight.


I don't think any of the Sannin are stomping three Part I Kakashis. Kakashi even in part 1 was tremendously skilled in all the fundemental ninja arts, had Sharingan, and had mastery of 1,000 Jutsu. . Kakashi's only real problem preventing him from hanging with the Sannin to a certain extent back then was his stamina, but with three of them to shoulder the load, that wouldn't be as much of an issue. Plus Kakashi was even compared to Kabuto in strength and Kabuto was able to put forward a good showing against Tsunade. Granted she was rusty and didn't have much chakra stored in her Yin-Seal at that point, but he still performed admirably against many of her skills.

So I feel as if 1 Part-1 Kakashi could put up a fight against a Sannin, until he ran out of stamina. Three should at the very least force a Sannin to use their stronger techniques, if not their ultimates [Sousou Saisei, Edo-Tensei, Hydra, and Sennin Modo]. I agree that a Sannin could beat 3 Part I Kakashi's, but I think it would be more with at least Mid-diff, rather than being a stomp.

Plus three carbon copies of the same shinobi is easier to deal with in my opinion than three different shinobi with unique skills, especially when one is a Medic. So if three P1-Kakashi's push a Sannin to Mid-Diff, I'd expect the three Younger-Sannin to at least push a current Sannin to High Diff. 

And Part I-Kakashi "level" is probably the weakest I could possibly see an individual Sannin being back then. More likely i'd place them as around Part-1 Kakashi in strength, but than having their powerful summons on-top of it, pushing them further up the scale.


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## Turrin (Apr 13, 2015)

> I'm not asking Viz to translate specifically to my liking; notice I never said "I usually mean I don't actually believe what I'm being told when I use the phrases 'far-fetched' and/or 'yeah, right', as opposed to 'unbelievable', which I normally use when I mean something is extraordinary or astonishing," what I said was "people usually mean they don't actually believe what they're being told when they use the phrases 'far-fetched' and/or 'yeah, right', as opposed to 'unbelievable', which people normally use when they mean something is extraordinary or astonishing,". I'm not using myself as a representative, I'm using the hundreds of people that I've seen and heard say those things, all over the place and from several age groups; it wouldn't be rational for me, or anyone else such as yourself, to do otherwise. So when you just say you'll take those other expressions as a figure of speech and not "unbelievable" I quite frankly don't see why I should care, though if you want to continue to disagree that's all you.


I'm sorry, but I don't see how that isn't asking Viz to translate to your liking. Everything you said is based on your own experiences and social interactions. For you "unbelievable" immediately sounds like an expression, because you've interacted with many people who've used that expression. On the other hand I've interacted with people who've used it as an expression, and also used it in the literal sense, so if someone said "unbelievable", whether I'd take that as an expression or not, would depend on the context. So when Viz translated the line as "unbelievable", i'm not going to immediately take that as expression, i'm going to evaluate the context; and the context leaves me with the impression that "unbelievable" is used literally there, rather than an expression. However your asking me to believe that Viz translated it specifically to be an expression, because that's how you hear "unbelievable" and are assuming Viz hears it the same way. That is working under the assumption that Viz is specifically translating for "you" or at least someone like "you". And i'm not saying that's not normally possible, because the Viz-translator could have a similar back-ground as "you" and also hear "unbelievable" as totally an expression. However the Viz translator _could_ also have a background more like mine, and have heard unbelievable used literally as well. Or the Viz-translator could have just not thought through deeply enough how that line could end up sounding different to various people with with different backgrounds.

That's why to get clarification, I think looking at the Raw-Japanese is important. In this case what I get from the Raw-Text is that it's more literal rather than an expression, so in this instance i'm going to assume Viz meant "unbelievable" literally, even-though I acknowledge it can be used as an expression. 



> I never contested the fact that Pain soloing Hanzō was a rumor (at least as far as that Amegakure shinobi was concerned) either. I don't need to, because people buy into rumors, especially widespread rumors (Jiraiya said that just strolling about the city almost everyone mentioned Pain with the utmost respect) that they can't rebut the claims to (and how would Jiraiya go about doing that?)


I don't see why you would expect a veteran Ninja to immediately believe a rumor whole heartedly. I'm sorry, but I just don't. 

As for how Jiriaya can rebut them, the very fact that Amegakuru-Fodder knows none of the specifics regarding how Pain solo'd Hanzo or even a single one of his techniques, is more than enough for Jiriaya or any rational person to question the validity of his claims. Even more so in a world of Ninja where peoples memories can be altered and their are mass hypnosis techniques.



> Nagato refers to the bodies collectively as "Pain", so in that sense Pain is one entity.


Your missing my point. I'm not saying Pain isn't one entity. Pain is one entity, but Pain is also made up of six physical bodies. If Nagato could have six physical bodies deal with Hanzo, without anyone being aware of such a fact, he very clearly 6 individuals could have dealt with Hanzo, claimed it was 1 individual, and none would be the wiser. 

My point being that the Amegakuru-Fodder didn't really know shit. It could have been 6 individuals that defeated Hanzo, and the Amegakuru-Fodder would still be buying into it just being Pain.



> What incentive did Nagato have to keep a detail another member of Akatsuki helped him a secret were that the case. Are the underlings of Akatsuki not going to want to be a part of Akatsuki anymore? Said underlings actually explained that the only reason he kept his identity a secret was in case somebody got captured and was interrogated. If more than one member of Akatsuki was involved in the killing of Hanzō wouldn't that story actually make it even harder for those remnant factions to track down their targets because they could be in multiple places (and thus provide an even better "defense" against them)?


Nagato's incentive doesn't matter. He has no incentive because that didn't actually happen, he did solo Hanzo. However there could be plenty of incentives for someone to pretend a single individual killed Hanzo, versus multiple individuals; and Jiraiya should be aware of such motivations.

For example Pain soloing Hanzo is what got the people of Amegakuru to believe he was a God. That is a powerful thing. If people really start believing your a god, not only are they less likely to try turning against you [and i'm not just talking force of arms, but providing the enemy w/ information] , but they are more likely to die willingly for your cause. I mean that one of the biggest way cults have come about in the past and even beyond just cults giving the people a sense that the ruler is a divinity, is a tool of control that nations have been using for centuries. Japan's emperor for generations apon generation claimed a connection to the divine, same with China's, and so on. 

Beyond that, a ruler might also wishes to keep the method which he used to slay his competition secret for multiple reasons. If he used an under-handed method that could reflect negatively on his character and hurt public opinion of him. Or in this case if he has ties to criminal organization like Akatsuki, he may not wish for his people to know what the nature of these ties are, the fact that he's the leader, or any real major details about said organization that could be gotten out of them if they were captured; like amount of members, names of members, and so on.

Even further beyond that some rumors aren't even started by the leaders themselves. The fact that Jiriaya talks to two Amegakuru Ninja that believe Pain solo'd, doesn't necessary mean Pain solo'd or even that Pain himself started that rumor. Some people of Amegakuru may have simply started that rumor as means of paying homage to their leader or out of fear for their leader. And Pain is not going to patrol the streets wasting his time correcting them, and saying yeah actually I had help.

-----

Bottom line is there are a myriad of reasons why a false rumor could be spread. Jiriaya is an elite Ninja, so him not even considering the idea that this is a false rumor, seems really insulting to Jiriaya's intelligence to me. I mean fuck man if you turn on the TV right now and there is a news bulletin that Mike Tyson is in the Hospital for undisclosed reasons. Than some people come up to you on the street and say hey you know it was just a single guy who knocked out Tyson. Are you immediately going to believe that's true. If so, than I should be able to win this debate by simply saying "Yah know, I heard that the 5th DB has an interview with Kishi saying Hanzo is twice as strong as a Sannin", and you should just believe me, and were done here. But no, any rational person such as yourself, would not believe a rumor like that w/o hard evidence, in-fact you and I would probably start from a position of believing that rumor is less likely than the myriad of alternative explanations for why Tyson is in the hospital, that don't require us to believe a single man off the streets solo'd Tyson in a fist fight.



> Question, Turrin: does being the leader always mean somebody is superior to everyone else? Was Yahiko stronger than Nagato back in the day?


The problem is your making this about whether something is _"always"_ the case, when it really should be about what's _likely_ to be the case.

The Leader isn't always the strongest, but he is likely to be the strongest or one of the strongest. However, for your explanation to work Jiraiya would not have to consider the Akatsuki Leader being >= to Orochimaru, as even a viable option. And Kishi would have to believe we as readers don't think it's possible that the Leader is >= Orochimaru.

Jiriaya/Kishi would need to be moronic to think that way. And while i'm certainly down on Kishi, I don't think he is quite a moron.


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## Turrin (Apr 13, 2015)

> I also think you're forgetting one possibility here when you talk about what I'm supposedly demand you to believe. Because what if…stay with me now…Jiraiya would have found it astonishing that Orochimaru wasn't the strongest individual member of Akatsuki when he was there? Entertain that notion and you see that I'm not really demanding you to believe what you allege.


How is that different than what I said? I said and I quote:

"Your interpretation is basically demanding that I believe the following: 

Jiriaya considered _*it impossible [or at least next to impossible] that the Leader of Akatsuki was even as strong as Orochimaru*_. As otherwise if he thought that was an option it would not shock Jiriaya so much that someone who could be >= Orochimaru, defeated Hanzo, if Hanzo is weaker than Orochimaru. --"

That is exactly what I said your interpretation requires and that _is indeed_ what it requires.

For your interpretation to work Jiriaya must be totally and completely astonished by the fact that Akatsuki-Leader is as strong as Orochimaru . 

To me, and I'm not trying to be rude here, it's seems absolutely ludicrous that the Akatsuki-Leader being as strong as Orochimaru, would be so god-dam shocking to Jiriaya.

It's not like Orochimaru is Kaguya "level". Jiriaya should be aware of the fact that there are plenty of Ninja who have been and still are around Orochimaru in strength and in some cases stronger. Here's just a short list of the ones Jiriaya specifically should know about: Himself, Tsunade, Almost all the Kages during his long life time, White-Fang, debatably Itachi, debatable Sasori, debatably Kakuzu, debatably Shisui, debatably Prime-Chiyo, and so on.

I'd place Orochimaru above some of these characters, but not by a VAST enough margin, where they are an entirely different "Tier" than Orochimaru. 

The point being that Jiraiya should be well aware of the fact that, while Orochimaru possess uncommon strength, it's not so rare that he should be left flabergasted by the fact that the Leader of Akatsuki is as strong as Orochimaru, especially when Orochimaru was once said leader's subordinate, as well as other subordinates of said leader Jiriaya should at least be aware are around Orochimaru in strength, like Itachi, Sasori, and Kakuzu.

I just don't see how that level of shock makes sense for a character in Jiriaya's position, like at all.



> The databooks also say Tsunade is unstoppable and nobody who confronts Sasuke stands a chance at living.


Where does it say that? But overall I'm not saying we should take the DB literally, if I was than I would have just quoted that phrase and said it's over you've lost, Hanzo is unrivaled thee end.

What I am saying is that statement in the DB is clearly in there to convey to readers that people considered Hanzo at one point and time to be one of the strongest of all shinobi in circulation. Not only does that help establish Hanzo's reputation beyond Jiriaya's statements, but it also speaks towards Hanzo's strength, because there is no point and time in history where even being in the running for strongest wouldn't push Hanzo very far up the power ladder, probably even above a Sannin.



> That was Hashirama, not Madara.


And if Tree-World and Flower Tree world are the stuff of legends, you don't think what Madara is capable off is? Come on now.



> The ninja of the Hidden Leaf at least from Jiraiya's generation back didn't seem to be the ones counting it as mere myth. Tsunade didn't question her grandaddy fighting someone as strong as Madara when he busted out that Jutsu during which the significantly younger Kabuto remarked that the people who heard about him considered him a fairy tale; she only did that after Final Susano'o came out, as if she could buy everything before that (which is enough to say Hanzō doesn't even compare)


I don't think someone's granddaughter is an accurate representation of public opinion. Why not go with Ei's reaction, which is "what's that", and Ei is only a few 5-6 years younger than Jiriaya. But even going off Tsunade's reaction, she may not have been surprised by the Jutsu itself, but she was surprised by the scale:
"his friend"

But fuck I don't even think Flower-Tree World is enough to say Hanzo doesn't even compare, as we literally saw Onoki counter Flower-Tree World, and most wouldn't place Onoki as tiers and tiers above the someone who is stronger than a Sannin by a decent margin. Fuck most people wouldn't put Onoki above a Sannin and some would put a Sannin above Onoki. Heck we saw Gaara react to and evade it, and only got hit down into the pollen because Madara used his own Susano'o and Katon techniques in conjunction with it. So again is Gaara tiers and tiers above someone stronger than a Sannin?

Now don't get me wrong Flower-Tree World is powerful and hax, but if Tsunade is thinking this is Hashi's ultimate technique or the limit of Hashi's power, it's not something insurmountable for characters around Sannin "level". We've also seen characters around that "level" create attacks of massive scope. Such as Deidara's C3/CO, Jiriaya's Gama Yu Endan, Gaara's sand techs in the desert, and so on. None of which guarantee a victory against Sannin "level" or above characters. Especially if in Tsunade's mind the scale of Flower-Tree-World was not as vast until she actually saw it in the Madara fight.



> Jiraiya only had that opinion because of Minato's actions and how well he knew him, so it wasn't unsubstantiated.


He knew Minato had a reason for sealing the Fox into Naruto, considering his knowledge of Minato. That part is substantiated, what was totally hypothetical on Jiriaya's part to the point where the Toad-Scroll laughed him off, is that Madara was the reason why. This is also a possibility Jriiaya shared after her heard about Hanzo being solo'd.

So perhaps, and though this is not confirmed by anything, it's possible that Jiriaya thought about on the off chance that the rumor was true, what power could defeat Hanzo, and that started to get him thinking about the Kyuubi attack, and together these two things made him think perhaps there was a chance that some power like Madara's or Madara himself was behind things.  That's just my thoughts.

But even if the hypothesis was before the statement he made about Hanzo, I still see absolutely no reason to equate a vague hypothesis on a mythological character's strength, to characters Jiriaya actually new personally.

PS- Tried to shorten it, but it still ended up three posts; sorry.


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## Turrin (Apr 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> After reading all the posts. hanzo is low kage level
> ibuse poison gas is a battle field changer and is hax but when we compare said ability to what Mei can do.


Sigh...No it's not. 

Ibusei's Gas Cloud covered like half a mile of forest and rose high enough into the sky that it was towering over the tallest trees and more comparable in size to mountains in the background:
"his friend"

Mei's Acid Mist filled a small room. 

Ibusei's Gas Cloud in size and scope absolutely dwarf's Mei's Acid Mist. 

Now you can say Mei can create a larger Acid Mist Cloud than the one used against Sasuke. 

However even working under the assumption that Mei could create an Acid-Cloud as large as Ibusei's Gas-Cloud, it still wouldn't be eons better than Ibusei's Gas Cloud, it would just be different. Some characters would handle Acid better than Poison, and some would handle Poison better than Acid. I do think it would be better overall, but not by much. The reason both are dangerous would still be similar, the scope makes the cloud extremely difficult to avoid or escape, and w/o knowledge a Shinobi can easily be KO'd before even realizing it's anything more than a mere smoke-screen.

The biggest difference would be if Mei could generate these Cloud's w/o the 5min cool down that Ibusei has, but if she could, both consistently generate the cloud and make one as large as Ibusei's, she automatically becomes one of the strongest Mid-Kages, up there with Tobirama, Minato, and Prime-Hiruzen, due to how fucking hax that shit would be.



> Also note that despite its AoE its not a fast jutsu. therefore getting out of the way is perfectly possible.


Not fast lolz, It covered like half a mile of forest in like 2-3 panels. It's incredibly fast. Even Kankuro's-Squad running at full speed and having a head start, couldn't even come close to escaping it. 



> Ei is either mid or high depending on what people think and he absolutely entirely low diffs hanzo. something that shouldnt happen to people on the same level


That scenario only happens when Ei starts in close range and immediately use his Max-Speed to blitz Hanzo. That's great and all, but Hanzo can Low-Diff Ei under the right conditions as well. If Ei doesn't know about Ibusei's Gas being poisonous and Hanzo starts the match at Mid or Long-Range opening with Ibusei gassing the area, Ei breaths in the Gas and get's owned just as bad as Kankuro's Squad did. So both can Low-Diff each other under Ideal conditions. In-fact Hanzo's win under ideal conditions is more plausible than Ei's, considering even if Ei does Max-Speed Blitz' Hanzo, if he ruptures the Venom Sack or knocks Hanzo's mask off he's a dead man, while Hanzo might survive Ei's blitz, and even if he doesn't it would still result in a draw with both of them dying. There is no threat of something like that happening in Hanzo's ideal scenario, Ei just plain looses.

In none Ideal situations the match can easily go ether way. At Mid-Long Range Ibusei's Gas cloud is a huge problem for Ei depending on if he has knowledge or not. In CQC Hanzo having kept up with Mifune in CQC for 5min, shouldn't be instantly blitz'd by Ei's non top speeds, he'll loose out in the end for sure, but he won't be stomped and if he removes his mask or Ei ruptures the sack, than Ei could easily loose out in a CQC exchange as well or the match could end in a draw. By no means is Ei guaranteed to win, let alone guaranteed to stomp. In-fact in more scenarios and situations Hanzo, probably wins than Ei, unless Ei has knowledge of all of Hanzo's poison delivery methods.

And that's w/ Rusty-Hanzo having a fraction of the panel time of Ei and not getting to show hardly any of his Jutsu.

-----

And Ei has it easier than quite a few other Mid-Kages as his RNY, Speed, and superior CQC abilities keep him safe from being scratched by Hanzo and poisoned that way. As well as his RNY and high durability allowing him to tank, with minimal injuries, Hanzo's only shown offensive Jutsu; Katon- Explosive Tags


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Sigh...No it's not.
> 
> Ibusei's Gas Cloud covered like half a mile of forest and rose high enough into the sky that it was towering over the tallest trees and more comparable in size to mountains in the background:
> "his friend"
> ...



hello turrin. shocked u actually responding to my posts. 
if u see when Mei used hidden mist below: you can see the range it covers and how quickly 

we seen Muu running away in this panel 

"his friend"

Muu still running off and here we see the mist has already covered whats infront of him 

"his friend"

Mei using hidden mist covered Muu in a single panel despite the fact that he had already been running away from the technique. she essentially covered the entire range of birth of trees twice. thats casually comparable to ibuse poison gas 

So she can do the same thing with Acid mist




> Now you can say Mei can create a larger Acid Mist Cloud than the one used against Sasuke.



she can see above. 



> However even working under the assumption that Mei could create an Acid-Cloud as large as Ibusei's Gas-Cloud, it still wouldn't be eons better than Ibusei's Gas Cloud, it would just be different. Some characters would handle Acid better than Poison, and some would handle Poison better than Acid. I do think it would be better overall, but not by much. The reason both are dangerous would still be similar, the scope makes the cloud extremely difficult to avoid or escape, and w/o knowledge a Shinobi can easily be KO'd before even realizing it's anything more than a mere smoke-screen.



see above its just as large. it wouldnt be Eons better. however it will eat through a poison cloud casually. the reverse isnt true. Certainly some characters will handle poison better than Acid and vice versa. 

I agree with the last part. however both techniques are particularly known for their speed a ninja using shunshin can avoid it if they see it coming. 

Now why Mei technique is better is because it stays on the battlefield. ibuse poison gas dissipates as shown by the fact that the cloud didnt stay through out the battle. 

we have seen how clam mist and hidden mist stay throughout. and Mei also needed to reduce the PH of her acid mist so that she doesnt melt the other kage. showing that Acid mist doesnt just dissipate after its used



> The biggest difference would be if Mei could generate these Cloud's w/o the 5min cool down that Ibusei has, but if she could, both consistently generate the cloud and make one as large as Ibusei's, she automatically becomes one of the strongest Mid-Kages, up there with Tobirama, Minato, and Prime-Hiruzen, due to how fucking hax that shit would be.



precisely. no cool down. she can use it back to back. she will cover any battlefield easily. 
Actually she can do that and no she isnt one of the strongest because of it. 

The technique isnt particularly fast and most ninja at mid kage level have faster techniques or better defenses. 

Ms sasuke, itachi, Ei, sandiame, gaara, tsunade. All above her level with very different fighting styles will have zero issue against Mei jutsu regardless of the scale or the frequency of its use. 



> Not fast lolz, It covered like half a mile of forest in like 2-3 panels. It's incredibly fast. Even Kankuro's-Squad running at full speed and having a head start, couldn't even come close to escaping it.



so did mei. neither tecchnique is known for its speed. atsugi covered a greater distance. its however not a fast jutsu. incredibly fast? . Things that are incredibly fast, Ei, gai, Air palm, 
Iai. those are fast and known for speed. poison gas isnt  or mei jutsu



> That scenario only happens when Ei starts in close range and immediately use his Max-Speed to blitz Hanzo. That's great and all, but Hanzo can Low-Diff Ei under the right conditions as well. If Ei doesn't know about Ibusei's Gas being poisonous and Hanzo starts the match at Mid or Long-Range opening with Ibusei gassing the area, Ei breaths in the Gas and get's owned just as bad as Kankuro's Squad did. So both can Low-Diff each other under Ideal conditions. In-fact Hanzo's win under ideal conditions is more plausible than Ei's, considering even if Ei does Max-Speed Blitz' Hanzo, if he ruptures the Venom Sack or knocks Hanzo's mask off he's a dead man, while Hanzo might survive Ei's blitz, and even if he doesn't it would still result in a draw with both of them dying. There is no threat of something like that happening in Hanzo's ideal scenario, Ei just plain looses.



V1 Ei dodged jugo canon point blank. even without Max speed he will easily close the distance between hanzo and himself before hanzo can summon ibuse and have it barf out poison gas. 
to actually put conditions in hanzo favor shows he is weaker. if we start them at most battle distances shown in the manga. Ei neg diffs. he will close that gap in no time. 

Ei has no reason to rupture the sack. he goes for chest or neck shots. so nope no sack will be ruptured. 

hanzo cant survive Ei hitting him. if Ei goes for him Ei kills him in 1 strike. 

like i said put it at normal fighting distances shown in the manga and hanzo gets ragdolled. 



> In none Ideal situations the match can easily go ether way. At Mid-Long Range Ibusei's Gas cloud is a huge problem for Ei depending on if he has knowledge or not. In CQC Hanzo having kept up with Mifune in CQC for 5min, shouldn't be instantly blitz'd by Ei's non top speeds, he'll loose out in the end for sure, but he won't be stomped and if he removes his mask or Ei ruptures the sack, than Ei could easily loose out in a CQC exchange as well or the match could end in a draw. By no means is Ei guaranteed to win, let alone guaranteed to stomp. In-fact in more scenarios and situations Hanzo, probably wins than Ei, unless Ei has knowledge of all of Hanzo's poison delivery methods.



again having to make it ideal of hanzo proves my point 
V1 Ei is horribly faster than mifune though. by feats and u known tsunade being surprised that a 9 tail jin could keep up with Ei V1 speeds. surviving against mifune is far easier, for one hanzo can block mifune. he cant block Ei 

Do poll such a match. i doubt most would disagree with me



> And that's w/ Rusty-Hanzo having a fraction of the panel time of Ei and not getting to show hardly any of his Jutsu.



thats the only hanzo we know. the prime version is ur fan fic. no different from prime itachi which everyone discredits or prime hiruzen with nothing but that hype
-----



> And Ei has it easier than quite a few other Mid-Kages as his RNY, Speed, and superior CQC abilities keep him safe from being scratched by Hanzo and poisoned that way. As well as his RNY and high durability allowing him to tank, with minimal injuries, Hanzo's only shown offensive Jutsu; Katon- Explosive Tags



most mid level kage can take a hit from Ei. hanzo cant cuz he got no defensive abilities and cannot survive Ei punching him. 

tsunade, gaara, sasori etc
just to mention 3 can survive Ei hitting them alot more than once. hanzo simply cannot.


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 13, 2015)

Hidden mist =/= acid mist
The same way Kage bushin =/= suiton bushin

All your point that came from that feat is null


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## Icegaze (Apr 13, 2015)

ok. ill wait for a more relevant poster to reply. thanks. feel free to not quote me or respond. last reply to u


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## FlamingRain (Apr 13, 2015)

> PS- Tried to shorten it, but it still ended up three posts; sorry.



Mmhmm.

Your plan is to crush me beneath a wall of text isn't it, Turrin?



Turrin said:


> I'm pretty sure that's what I said two posts back, which is why I said it _might_ be prudent to translate the line about Tsunade, as Battle・Medical Jutsu.



Yeah, that's why I said "_if_ you think that goes too far" back then, and I also said that I still think it speaks to the dual-functioning nature of Tsunade's abilities even if it was translated that way.

But I guess my question would be: would not its placement be the determinant in whether or not it should be understood as ":" or "and/or"?



> But at least you can admit that there are indeed liberties taken.



I admitted that a few posts ago. There are virtually always liberties like that taken when you translate something from one language to another, it's just that that doesn't necessarily equate to _mistakes_ that cause a serious tonal difference.



> The problem is you have to put yourself back in the head-space of Part I.



I'm in that headspace.

Most of those things I named off _were Part 1 events_, and that's not even all of it.

Even back in the Chūnin Exam finals Kabuto, the guy as strong as Part 1 Kakashi, healed Hinata with a medical technique and then proceeded to knock Kiba out cold _with the very same Jutsu_. The first fan-book, which was released during the Orochimaru vs. Hiruzen fight, had already claimed that Tsunade was the strongest Kunoichi in Konoha history and justified it by pointing out that she was _every bit a match_ for Jiraiya and Orochimaru. Orochimaru already highlighted that Tsunade only became a medical specialist after Nawaki's death, and Tsunade scared Kabuto by demolishing that wall near the Tanzaku Castle before Jiraiya's statement as well.

I don't think anybody would have thought she was some tent-medic and thus needed Jiraiya to distinguish it.



> Here's my question, medical-jutsu aside, is how good someone is in battle, completely dependent on their strength or can it be the sum total of multiple factors; _yes or no_?



I would say that someone's level of strength _is_ their sum total of multiple factors that can come into play when they fight, so...

Is that a "yes"?



> Well first DBIV states that Katsuya has her own restoration abilities.



But wouldn't we need to "put ourselves back in the headspace of Part 1"? We didn't know Katsuyu had her own restoration abilities back in Part 1, we didn't even know that in the Itachi Pursuit and Tale of Jiraiya Arcs of Part 2. We did know that Tsunade summoned her to try and _kill_ Orochimaru once she got over her hemophobia, though. The databook also says that Katsuyu's true _strength_ is considerable despite her politeness and obedience because of her _fighting_ on equal footing with Gamabunta and Manda.

I'll give you the point bout carrying the injured away from battle though...



> I think your underestimating the things that we can assume.



Define "proficient" in Katon Ninjutsu. Are you talking about Jiraiya cooking that fish? Is _anyone_ supposed to be impressed by that besides enthusiastic non-ninjas like Yahiko? Beginning of series Sasuke could have cooked that fish. Moreover, Jiraiya's teachings were likely based more around mere knowledge of those techniques than they were around his own ability to demonstrate them, because he taught Nagato each and every one of the Five Great Changes in Nature despite canonically not being able to use them all himself (presumably, that's the same case with Konan).

I disagree that we can be certain Tsunade had her medical skills back then, though. Once again I stress that the Second Great Ninja War didn't start and end with Hanzō, and Tsunade apparently wasn't yet a medical specialist when it began. I think Kishi may have just retconned Hashirama to live until he saw Tsunade in her prime tbqh just because Toddlernade hitting war-arc Sakura hard is..pretty outrageous. If so, then that could have been either before _or_ after the Hanzō battle.



> Part I Kakashi's only real problem preventing him from hanging with the Sannin to a certain extent back then was his stamina.





...no.

To say that Kakashi's only real problem preventing him from hanging with a Sannin back then was his stamina outright defies canon. Stamina only becomes an issue when the fighters in question can already compete with each other, and Kakashi himself admits that the notion of him competing with one of the Sannin is the mark of a fool. Stamina is a non-issue because Kakashi cannot hang with them in the first place.

Part 1 Kakashi was about as strong as Part 1 Kabuto, according to two of the Sannin and Kakashi himself. Someone like Shizune is implied by Kabuto himself, Orochimaru, and Jiraiya to be a threat to people on that level of power, and Tsunade knocked Shizune the crap out immediately after she resolved to stop her at the cost of her own life. _There's a reason_ that despite facing a Sannin that was _already_ decades out-of-shape (severe handicap), out-of-practice (severe handicap), and unable to even summon due to a fear of blood (another severe handicap) Kabuto had to run away until she was tired out before popping some ninja steroids to even approach her, and yet still wound up having to resort to her hemophobia in order to stop her, and that reason is that the dissimilarity in level between a healthy member of the Progidal Three and Part 1 Kakashi level ninjas is absolutely tremendous.



Turrin said:


> Everything you said is based on your own experiences and social interactions.



Of course it is. I'm the one talking.

That isn't to _my_ liking, though, because it isn't about what _I_ would say or how _I_ would word it, it's about how I _would expect most other people to word it_. You disagree, talking about how you could try to "far-fetched" and "yeah, right" are things people say when they mean something is extraordinary or astonishing, but that just puts your online opinion on one side of the scale that has hundreds of in-life encounters in which the opposite has been demonstrated on it. Which one would be most reasonable for me to go with as being more representative of usage likelihood? Yes, the latter. You could be telling the truth that you've interacted with people who use "unbelievable" when they actually don't believe something, it's just that I'm going to think the instances you bring up are the _exception_, and when you try to convey meaning to groups speaking different languages you don't swing with the exception, you swing with the general rule, so I'm also going to think that's not what the Viz translator went with (simply because that seems to be more likely than not). The only assumption I'm working under is that a general trend holds up and the exception wasn't chanced across, like almost everybody does in most of their decisions.



> I don't see why you would expect a veteran Ninja to immediately believe a rumor whole heartedly.



Because that's normal social behavior and being a veteran doesn't suddenly immunize you to rumors.

That's also not a rebuttal, Turrin. If Jiraiya wanted to rebut his claims he'd have to do something like go find all of Hanzō's friends and family or Hanzō himself still alive, or go find witnesses to the massacre. Questioning doesn't mean rejection, it often precedes provisional acceptance. There must be something to the claim that's true if the city itself is under that impression. Amegakure couldn't think Pain solo'd Hanzō if Hanzō and everything he stood for wasn't actually destroyed, for example.



> Nagato's incentive doesn't matter. He has no incentive because that didn't actually happen, he did solo Hanzo.



It _does_ matter and you actually just pointed towards why it does. Since keeping his information a secret from interrogators was a matter of concern to him then, if anything it would be _more_ beneficial to spread a rumor that someone backed him up in killing Hanzō as that spreads the targets out for remnant factions, and there would be no worry about people turning against them because those multiple members of Akatsuki that assisted in Hanzō's killing would still be present.

It wasn't soloing Hanzō that got the people of Amegakure to see Pain as some kind of "god". It was stated that what was perceived as his _true_ terror was the extermination of Hanzō's parents, wife, children, relatives, friends and allies _all the way down to their newborn *babies*_, burning all of their houses down and then finally killing off even former clientele. Ruthless annihilation of anyone who threatened his ideals was what they thought was judgement like that of a "god". Their respect for him was in all likelihood motivated by _fear_, fear that is not going to go away if they learn that he was associated with some mercenary group (I mean that's only going to _increase it_, and Akatsuki was already famous, and one side of the Amegakure civil war so it's not like they didn't know Pain was involved with them. What is 2+2?), and considering that his entire plan for "peace" revolved around fear of the ramifications of instigating anything I don't think he'd care if that city had another reason to be afraid of him.

One thing that really doesn't matter is whether or not Nagato himself started it. Someone with that kind of influence over a city can definitely add to a rumor; Pain has enough people under his control for that, and by all means it would be better for him to.



Turrin said:


> For your interpretation to work Jiriaya must be totally and completely astonished by the fact that Akatsuki-Leader is as strong as Orochimaru.



Yeah, I don't see why Jiraiya couldn't be astonished that the leader of Akatsuki was as strong as Orochimaru. It's my belief that the Sannin recognize their contemporaries as being more or less equal to themselves, and Jiraiya apparently thought he was going to just go kill said leader of Akatsuki himself with it probably not even taking very long.

The leader isn't even most likely to be the strongest in an organization where everybody who joined joined voluntarily. He's most likely to be the leader just because it was his idea that they were interested in.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 13, 2015)

> Where does it say that?



In their character pages, bro. Here they are:


*Spoiler*: _Tsunade's_ 





> Tsunade (pg 104-109)
> 
> Pg 104
> 
> ...







*Spoiler*: _Sasuke's_ 





> Sasuke Uchiha
> 
> With my hatred... I'll turn the illusion into reality!
> 
> ...






Actually there's also this: 
*Spoiler*: _The Legend of the Sannin_ 





> What is the truth behind the three sannin? With three key words, we will discover how the three became legends.
> 
> Even ghosts would cower before Konoha’s three sannins!
> 
> ...








> > The claims I was talking about are bolded (though the Sasuke translation is different, it makes the same point; here's a picture of the one I was talking about ).
> >
> > So Tsunade's profile says that Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru are adulated as the strongest ninja who put fear into the hearts of enemies far away, and then there's the "only a Sannin can beat a Sannin" saying popping up again in the databook, so it looks like by the time we were introduced to them the Sannin have outstripped even Hanzō!


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## Turrin (Apr 13, 2015)

@Icegaze



Zuhaitz said:


> Hidden mist =/= acid mist
> The same way Kage bushin =/= suiton bushin
> 
> All your point that came from that feat is null


This covers pretty much the first half of your post.Icegaze Demonic Mist is not Acid Mist. If Mei is capable of casting Acid Mist on the same scale and with the same ease as Demonic Mist, she is broken. 



> I agree with the last part. however both techniques are particularly known for their speed a ninja using shunshin can avoid it if they see it coming.


Simply having Shunshin is not enough to escape. You'd need top-tier reactions and be capable of a massive distance Shunshin. Thee only Shunshin I can recall that crossed a distance any where remotely similar the scope of Ibusei's gas cloud is BM-Naruto's shunshin he used here:
"his friend"

And BM-Naruto has vastly more chakra to pump into his Shunshin than nearly any character besides God-Tiers, like Madara, Hashirama, Juubi-Jins, etc...

And even if I gave speed demons like Ei the benefit of the doubt, it's still dependent on those speedsters having knowledge of Acid-Mist prior to Mei utilizing it. And even if they escape they can't get close to Mei and are forced to rely on extremely Long-Range Jutsu, while not being able to see where Mei is through the Mist. 

So even an Ideal match up w/ knowledge would be climbing an uphill battle against how broken that would be, and that would only be _one_ of Mei's techniques



> Ms sasuke, itachi, Ei, sandiame, gaara, tsunade. All above her level with very different fighting styles will have zero issue against Mei jutsu regardless of the scale or the frequency of its use.


Not only are you picking some of most equipped Mid-Kages to deal with such an ability, but all of them would need prior knowledge of the Mist [except Sandaime-Raikage], otherwise they could all easily be killed by the Mist before even realizing it's Acidic. If they have knowledge only, Ei still can't do anything but flee. While the rest ar eleft using demanding Jutsu to stay alive in the Mist, while having a tough time finding Mei w/ their LOS cut off. 

Sandaime is the only one who this doesn't apply to due to his extreme durability, but one could easily make the argument that he is the worst match up for Mei out of all the Mid-Kage, if this was the case.



> so did mei. neither tecchnique is known for its speed. atsugi covered a greater distance. its however not a fast jutsu. incredibly fast? . Things that are incredibly fast, Ei, gai, Air palm,
> Iai. those are fast and known for speed. poison gas isnt or mei jutsu


We don't need to be told it's fast. We saw it was fast, when it covered like a 1/2 mile of forest in a split instance, and Kankuro's Squad running full speed in the opposite direction, an were already far away from them couldn't hope to escape it. No one but speed-demons stand a chance of escaping that scope, and no Atsugi does not cover that level of scope.

You need to take another look at this panel:
"his friend"



> V1 Ei dodged jugo canon point blank. even without Max speed he will easily close the distance between hanzo and himself before hanzo can summon ibuse and have it barf out poison gas.


Ei couldn't close a distance of 5-10m before the ceiling collapse ontop of him, when not going Max-Speed, during the Kages arc. He's not closing Mid or Long-Range, before Hanzo can gas them. Kuchiyose takes 1-Hand-Seal and the rest is instance, than it takes one more instance for Hanzo to say "smoke'm" and the gas is out, it's not some tech that takes much preparation at all.



> to actually put conditions in hanzo favor shows he is weaker. if we start them at most battle distances shown in the manga.


Most of the times the characters become aware of the enemy long-before coming into short-range. The idea that most of the time characters aren't aware of the enemy until short-range is a total and completely misconception on this forum and an outright denial of cannon, to skew things in favor of speedsters.



> Ei has no reason to rupture the sack. he goes for chest or neck shots. so nope no sack will be ruptured.


He does not always go for the chest and neck shots. He goes for a wide variety of shots. Liager-Bomb could easily rupture the sack for instance. So could leg drop. And so on. W/o knowledge of the sack, even if you want to claim Ei's chances of not rupturing the sack are better than his chances of rupturing the sack, it's still a very real possibility that he will. And if he does that is a loss or a draw for Ei. Someone you claim will stomp in every situation. 

And than there is also Hanzo's poison breath which can easily KO him. Fuck as you said yourself Ei has gone for the neck, and when he does, the force of would knock of Hanzo's mask, and that's the end for Ei. Or if Hanzo just takes his mask off, he could end Ei w/o even needing to necessarily be hit.



> anzo cant survive Ei hitting him. if Ei goes for him Ei kills him in 1 strike.


Please show Hanzo's durability, that confirms he can't survive 1 strike of any kind. Fucking Karin survived being hit by a Bijuu's Tail that was lit on fire with Amaterasu, and she isn't some durability monsters when not biting herself [which she didn't there]. Characters in Naruto have massively altered durability in general, and it would not surprise me if Hanzo, rusty, as he may be being still physical fit enough to keep up with Mifune for 5min, could withstand a blow or two from Ei w/o immediately dying, depending on the nature of that blow.



> V1 Ei is horribly faster than mifune though. by feats and u known tsunade being surprised that a 9 tail jin could keep up with Ei V1 speeds. surviving against mifune is far easier, for one hanzo can block mifune. he cant block Ei


By feats Sasuke aim dodged Ei, Juugo reacted to Ei, and Suigetsu reacted to Ei. Mifune  being world famous for his speed [and by extension Hanzo] should be able to more than comfortable keep up with Ei, if these characters did. Ei when not using Max-Speed Shunshin is not some unstoppable speed demon.



> Do poll such a match. i doubt most would disagree with me


It doesn't matter to me who agrees with you or not. Even if 100 people agreed with you and 1 with me, it wouldn't make you any less wrong. Ei can not win 10 out of 10 times in a stomp against Hanzo, over varying conditions.

But if you really want I can make threads of Hanzo vs Mid-Kages and Mei w/ Ibusei Gas Cloud Sized Acidic Mist vs Mid-Kages, and you'd see that not everyone is going to think they are always stomped 10/10 times, or in Mei's case anywhere close to that.



> thats the only hanzo we know. the prime version is ur fan fic. no different from prime itachi which everyone discredits or prime hiruzen with nothing but that hype


This has nothing to do with Prime-Hanzo. Rusty-Hanzo, had 1, 2 chapters battle to show feats and 1 small moment against the Amegakuru orphans; and during the former instance he couldn't use Jutsu due to the nature of the fighter he was up against. Ei has had 2 Major battles against Sasuke and Madara, had multiple minor battles against Minato, Naruto, and B, and had a number of skirmish throughout the manga and other instances to accumulate feats. In no universe is a feat based comparison fair, and this is Rusty-Hanzo were talking about.



> most mid level kage can take a hit from Ei. hanzo cant cuz he got no defensive abilities and cannot survive Ei punching him.


If you don't think Hanzo can take any hit from Ei, I don't see how Tobirama, Hiruzen, Base-Jiriaya, Minato, etc.. are taking a hit from Ei. So apparently they aren't Mid-Kage?

But I digress because Ei literally can't survive a hit from Hanzo's poison. So even if the Hanzo can't survive a blow, that only makes things even in that regard. The rest will come down to who can hit who first, and whether they can do that w/o being hit themselves, which largely depends on knowledge, distance, and how each acts IC. Which if something like Distance can decide the match they aren't as far apart as your making them out to be.


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## Rocky (Apr 13, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It's my belief that the Sannin recognize their contemporaries as being more or less equal to themselves.



Didn't Orochimaru consider Itachi an unobtainable dream?


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## FlamingRain (Apr 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Didn't Orochimaru consider Itachi an unobtainable dream?



Yeah. I don't think _Jiraiya_ knew that, though.

I've posted my opinion on how that can be reconciled with the Sannin's equality before.

You forgot?


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## Rocky (Apr 13, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Yeah. I don't think _Jiraiya_ knew that, though.
> 
> I've posted my opinion on how that can be reconciled with the Sannin's equality before.
> 
> You forgot?



Don't make me feel bad here. 

If you could just refresh my memory. I understand that hypothetically Itachi could beat Orochimaru in a fight yet lose to Jiraiya; is there something else?


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## FlamingRain (Apr 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Don't make me feel bad here.



I'm joking. 



> If you could just refresh my memory. I understand that hypothetically Itachi could beat Orochimaru in a fight yet lose to Jiraiya; is there something else?



Just going to almost copy-paste:


*Spoiler*: __ 





> Well I don't believe there's much of anything separating the Sannin either, but there's still nothing necessarily inconsistent between that and Itachi and Kisame's statements about Jiraiya.
> 
> Trashed is a strong word. I don't see how you can take that from Itachi and Orochimaru's second "fight", because that was an instant clash of both of their ultimate techniques- it was by no means casual nor reflective of what the pacing of a normal fight between them would be unless Itachi already acknowledges that nothing bar the Totsuka can really take down Orochimaru.
> 
> ...


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## Veracity (Apr 13, 2015)

If Hashirama can escape the AoE of COFRS instantly and cross a mountain range in a panel, as well as Minato crossing Konoha in a moment and Sage Naruto climbing the God tree in a mere second ~ then Ay can DEFINITELY escape the AoE of the poison..


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> But I guess my question would be: would not its placement be the determinant in whether or not it should be understood as ":" or "and/or"?



I don't know, because Kishi uses the ・[For Jutsu] in a way i've never heard off in my studies of the language or find any references for. It seems to be specific linguistic trade mark Kishi himself has devised, rather than being a linguistic style typically used in the language itself.



> There are virtually always liberties like that taken when you translate something from one language to another, it's just that that doesn't necessarily equate to mistakes that cause a serious tonal difference.


I specifically said they don't cause serious tonal differences, usually, but we are talking in deeper specifics than just the tone. Which is why I find them problematic, for _this_ discussion.



> Even back in the Chūnin Exam finals Kabuto, the guy as strong as Part 1 Kakashi, healed Hinata with a medical technique and then proceeded to knock Kiba out cold with the very same Jutsu. The first fan-book, which was released during the Orochimaru vs. Hiruzen fight, had already claimed that Tsunade was the strongest Kunoichi in Konoha history and justified it by pointing out that she was every bit a match for Jiraiya and Orochimaru. Orochimaru already highlighted that Tsunade only became a medical specialist after Nawaki's death, and Tsunade scared Kabuto by demolishing that wall near the Tanzaku Castle before Jiraiya's statement as well.


I'm sorry, but this is insufficient. 

1. Kabuto knocking out a Genin w/ a Medical Tech, doesn't mean if he was in a War he wouldn't be hanging back in a Tent; and same thing with crumbling a wall. Nether of these illustrate that as Medics they are more or equally effective on the battlefield than in a Tent healing people
2. Fan-book is great, but not all fans purchase the Fan-book, so it isn't surprising that Kishi would wish to offer this distinction in the Manga
3. Nawaki stuff happened after Jiraiya's statement

------

Jiraiya's statement distinguishes Tsunade, as being more effective or at least equally effective on the battlefield than in a Tent. Something that was not established for Medic's prior to that point.



> I would say that someone's level of strength is their sum total of multiple factors that can come into play when they fight, so...
> 
> Is that a "yes"


I agree they have some impact on strength, however the main point that you seem to be dodging around is that their are qualities that can make someone more effective in a team-setting or war, than they are in an individual 1v1 match. Tsunade being a great Leader, reflects on her knowledge and experience, which have an impact on a 1v1 match, but won't have as great of an impact as in a Team-Battle or War. Tsunade's support capabilities help her a 1v1, but are more beneficial in a Team-Battle or War.

Simply put, are your denying the possibility that someone could be stronger than Tsunade in a 1v1, but less beneficial to their side in a battle. Or to put it another way are you denying that Tsunade could loose to someone in a 1v1, but guide her team to victory against that same person's team, because of her effectiveness rises in a Team-Setting?



> But wouldn't we need to "put ourselves back in the headspace of Part 1"? We didn't know Katsuyu had her own restoration abilities back in Part 1, we didn't even know that in the Itachi Pursuit and Tale of Jiraiya Arcs of Part 2..


There is a major difference here. In the first example it's what Kishi is trying to convey to readers for the first time. We haven't seen there can be medics more or equally effective in battle, as they are in a tent. So Kishi is conveying that to us. However Kishi at that point doesn't want us to know why Tsunade is so effective "in battle",  as otherwise he'd just have Jiraiya list of her abilities. But that doesn't mean Kishi doesn't have these ideas in mind. Now looking back we can figure out why Tsunade is so effective in battle, because Kishi has revealed why over the course of the story.



> We did know that Tsunade summoned her to try and kill Orochimaru once she got over her hemophobia, though. The databook also says that Katsuyu's true strength is considerable despite her politeness and obedience because of her fighting on equal footing with Gamabunta and Manda


No we didn't know any of that at the time of Jiriaya's statement. All of that came afterwards, the same way that almost all data on Tsunade came after that statement.



> I'll give you the point bout carrying the injured away from battle though...


So than why are we still even discussing this Tsunade statement than, when even by the Viz translations of "in-battle" it doesn't have to be a statement of Tsunade being the strongest?



> Define "proficient" in Katon Ninjutsu. Are you talking about Jiraiya cooking that fish? Is anyone supposed to be impressed by that besides enthusiastic non-ninjas like Yahiko? Beginning of series Sasuke could have cooked that fish. Moreover, Jiraiya's teachings were likely based more around mere knowledge of those techniques than they were around his own ability to demonstrate them, because he taught Nagato each and every one of the Five Great Changes in Nature despite canonically not being able to use them all himself (presumably, that's the same case with Konan).


I don't think Jiriaya had all of these techniques, but I do think Jiraiya being capable of teaching the mechanics of such a wide array of different types of Ninjutsu to three separate individuals, demonstrates a high understanding off the inner workings of Ninjutsu, that I don't think Jiraiay would have unless he was already quite proficient in the art.



> I disagree that we can be certain Tsunade had her medical skills back then, though. Once again I stress that the Second Great Ninja War didn't start and end with Hanzō, and Tsunade apparently wasn't yet a medical specialist when it began. I think Kishi may have just retconned Hashirama to live until he saw Tsunade in her prime tbqh just because Toddlernade hitting war-arc Sakura hard is…..pretty outrageous. If so, then that could have been either before or after the Hanzō battle.


The problem is I see no indication that Tsunade did not have these things and while we can't narrow it down to an exact time frame for sure, I do see indications that she likely did. So while we can't be certain I do feel I'm being fair in when estimating she did have these things.



> …...no.
> 
> To say that Kakashi's only real problem preventing him from hanging with a Sannin back then was his stamina outright defies canon. Stamina only becomes an issue when the fighters in question can already compete with each other, and Kakashi himself admits that the notion of him competing with one of the Sannin is the mark of a fool. Stamina is a non-issue because Kakashi cannot hang with them in the first place.


Do you think War-Arc Three-Tome Kakashi gets stomped by a Sannin? If not than literally nothing changed, but stamina? 

Kakashi can not compete with a Sannin in large part because of Stamina issues. Stamina makes a world of difference, in Kakashi's case, because he's Sannin "level" in many regards, where the only regards he is insufficient in is stamina and lacking an ultimate. That's why he reaches Sannin-"level" once he gets more stamina and Kamui, in Part II.



> Part 1 Kakashi was about as strong as Part 1 Kabuto, according to two of the Sannin and Kakashi himself. Someone like Shizune is implied by Kabuto himself, Orochimaru, and Jiraiya to be a threat to people on that level of power, and Tsunade knocked Shizune the crap out immediately after she resolved to stop her at the cost of her own life.


Kabuto raped Shizune. Tsunade own'd Shizune with a blindside attack. So this Shizune stuff is an exaggeration. 



> There's a reason that despite facing a Sannin that was already decades out-of-shape (severe handicap), out-of-practice (severe handicap), and unable to even summon due to a fear of blood (another severe handicap) Kabuto had to run away until she was tired out before popping some ninja steroids to even approach her, .


This is called using ones abilities effectively. There is no advantage or disadvantage there. Kabuto used his skills to evade Tsunade's blows until she tired, and than used his skills to make a soldier pill, which he than popped to get the edge.



> and yet still wound up having to resort to her hemophobia in order to stop her, and that reason is that the dissimilarity in level between a healthy member of the Progidal Three and Part 1 Kakashi level ninjas is absolutely tremendous


Kabuto exploited her hemophobai after Jiraiya arrived and he didn't wish to face 2 Sannin at once.

Before that Kabuto was keeping pace with Tsunade quite well and she even acknowledge his skills. 

I already said she was rusty, but if she could stomp 3 Kabuto "level" fighters so easily, rusty or not, she should have stomped 1 Kabuto.



> es you bring up are the exception, and when you try to convey meaning to groups speaking different languages you don't swing with the exception, you swing with the general rule,


It's only a general rule for you that "unbeleivable" is not used literally. I see it all the time, especially in written work. So again that is you holding an expectation that Viz is translating for you, and not for someone like me, or even considered this issue in this much detail. That's not something I can blindly get behind, while ignoring what the actual Raw-Text says.



> Because that's normal social behavior and being a veteran doesn't suddenly immunize you to rumors.


Normal social behavior is to immediately accept a rumor as true? I think that is normal social behavior maybe in Middle School, not for a 54 year old. And I can't imagine someone smart as yourself  tactually believes any rumor someone tells you. And if you don't believe every rumor, why are you arguing Jiriaya does. It doesn't make sense to me.



> That's also not a rebuttal, Turrin. If Jiraiya wanted to rebut his claims he'd have to do something like go find all of Hanzō's friends and family or Hanzō himself still alive, or go find witnesses to the massacre. Questioning doesn't mean rejection, it often precedes provisional acceptance. There must be something to the claim that's true if the city itself is under that impression. Amegakure couldn't think Pain solo'd Hanzō if Hanzō and everything he stood for wasn't actually destroyed, for example.


Jiraiya's rebuttal was going to find out more about Pain, which is exactly what he did.


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2015)

> One thing that really doesn't matter is whether or not Nagato himself started it. Someone with that kind of influence over a city can definitely add to a rumor; Pain has enough people under his control for that, and by all means it would be better for him to.


I think your missing the point bruv. It isn't a matter of who started the rumor or whether a different rumor could have been started; it's that your view point demands that Jiriaya believed the rumor he heard and never considered it even an option that this rumor could be false. Only if Jiraiya whole heartedly believe Pain definitely solo'd Hanzo, does any of your argument about how Jiraiya acted leading up to face Pain hold any weight.

However I have yet to see you put forward any real reasoning as to why Jiraiya wouldn't even consider the possibility that the Rumor was false. All you did was list a reason why another rumor might make more sense, considering Nagato's character, which Jiraiya didn't even know at the time. 

Again you need definitive evidence that Jiraiya believed this rumor completely, otherwise your argument doesn't work. You can't just rely on the idea that possibly Jiraiya might not have questioned the rumor due to X, because "possibly" doesn't work here. As if it's only "possible" that Jiraiya believed the rumor, than it's also "possible" that he didn't believe it. And in-order to refute a diret statement from Jiriaya, you need a heck of a-lot more than "possible". In-fact since the other "possible" option doesn't contradict something in the manga, we should de-facto go with that option being more likely.



> Yeah, I don't see why Jiraiya couldn't be astonished that the leader of Akatsuki was as strong as Orochimaru. It's my belief that the Sannin recognize their contemporaries as being more or less equal to themselves, and Jiraiya apparently thought he was going to just go kill said leader of Akatsuki himself with it probably not even taking very long.


Again you not seeing why Jiraiya couldn't be astonished, isn't a real argument. You need to show why Jiriaya wouldn't be astonished in a compelling way. I've already compiled my evidence multiple times now why Jiraiya being astonished makes no sense.

He knew many Ninja who were around Orochimaru's "level", so it shouldn't be that shocking. He directly knew Ninja in Akatsuki that were around Orochimaru's "level" and Orochimaru was in Akatsuki himself, so it shouldn't be that shocking that the Leader would be. It shouldn't be that shocking when he knew at least two characters on a personal "level" who were not even = Orochimaru, but stronger than Orochimaru. It shouldn't be that shocking when both him and his fellow team mate are around Orochimaru's "level". Fuck he was more shocked at the prospect of a single individual beating Hanzo, than Sasuke defeating Orochimaru, so it really shouldn't be that shocking.

Now despite all this, please explain why it's so shocking that Akatsuki-Leader could be equal to Orochimaru.



> The leader isn't even most likely to be the strongest in an organization where everybody who joined joined voluntarily. He's most likely to be the leader just because it was his idea that they were interested in.


The Leader is likely to be the strongest, whether people joined voluntarily or not. He is still keeping them in line, on point, and commands enough of their respect that they are willing to obey him. And your view point not only requires him not to be strongest, but to not even be tied for the strongest and actually weaker than one of his subordinates. And even more so, your view point doesn't just require this as a possibility, or even the more likely possibility, it requires Jiraiya to have not considered this an option to such an extent that he is baffled by the sheer idea. I do not see how that makes sense. 



> So Tsunade's profile says that Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru are adulated as the strongest ninja who put fear into the hearts of enemies far away, and then there's the "only a Sannin can beat a Sannin" saying popping up again in the databook, so it looks like by the time we were introduced to them the Sannin have outstripped even Hanzō!


And again I wasn't using the DB's statement as a literal statement, but rather an indicator. The statements you cite are also an indicator. The Sannin for awhile were meant to be viewed as the top dogs in the manga. Sasuke's speed was amazing at that time. Just like Hanzo was suppose to be one of the strongest Ninja ever as of the Uchiha-Bros arc, before the God-Tiers come on scene.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

@Likeboss spot on 
A will casually waltz away from it. no issues there. i mean even killer bee a slow ninja could cross a mountain range quicker than team taka could track. sorry but the poison will have to be super fast which it isnt 

Also considering tobirama explosive tag jutus needs to be perfectly timed so its not avoided, it goes to shwo that AoE jutsu that arent particularly fast can still be evaded if its timed wrong


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Likeboss spot on
> A will casually waltz away from it. no issues there. i mean even killer bee a slow ninja could cross a mountain range quicker than team taka could track. sorry but the poison will have to be super fast which it isnt
> 
> Also considering tobirama explosive tag jutus needs to be perfectly timed so its not avoided, it goes to shwo that AoE jutsu that arent particularly fast can still be evaded if its timed wrong



Bee is slow? 

Bee is among the fastest ninjas.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

sorry bee isnt slow. i meant a slower ninja when compared to EI 
thanks for the correction 
he certainly is. however Ei is much faster. my point was Ei would never have an issue avoiding poison gas. even at point blank range


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## Zuhaitz (Apr 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sorry bee isnt slow. i meant a slower ninja when compared to EI
> thanks for the correction
> he certainly is. however Ei is much faster. my point was Ei would never have an issue avoiding poison gas. even at point blank range



True, the only way A could get hit by the gas was if he thought he could tank it or if he sees it too late.

Then again, how can he win if he can't get near his enemy?


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

> Turrin said:
> 
> 
> > @Icegaze
> ...


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

> It doesn't matter to me who agrees with you or not. Even if 100 people agreed with you and 1 with me, it wouldn't make you any less wrong. Ei can not win 10 out of 10 times in a stomp against Hanzo, over varying conditions.



ur the blind kid who says something is white when everyone tells u its black. try harder. 
no Ei cannot win 10 out of 10. however will win more often hence establishing him as the stronger fighter 



> But if you really want I can make threads of Hanzo vs Mid-Kages and Mei w/ Ibusei Gas Cloud Sized Acidic Mist vs Mid-Kages, and you'd see that not everyone is going to think they are always stomped 10/10 times, or in Mei's case anywhere close to that.



i never said 10/10 stomp however every mid kage will beat mei in neutral conditions more often than not. same for hanzo 



> This has nothing to do with Prime-Hanzo. Rusty-Hanzo, had 1, 2 chapters battle to show feats and 1 small moment against the Amegakuru orphans; and during the former instance he couldn't use Jutsu due to the nature of the fighter he was up against. Ei has had 2 Major battles against Sasuke and Madara, had multiple minor battles against Minato, Naruto, and B, and had a number of skirmish throughout the manga and other instances to accumulate feats. In no universe is a feat based comparison fair, and this is Rusty-Hanzo were talking about.




and the sandaime raikage had the same amount of chapters yet u wont have anyone put him at low kage level. u urself put him at high kage level. Again hanzo can have alot more techniques. if he isnt quick enough to use them he dies equally

kakashi has had several chapters to show case all he can do. bar kamui he gets trolled by EI horribly



> If you don't think Hanzo can take any hit from Ei, I don't see how Tobirama, Hiruzen, Base-Jiriaya, Minato, etc.. are taking a hit from Ei. So apparently they aren't Mid-Kage?



who said jiriaya can take a hit from Ei? i never said he could. however unlike hanzo. jiriaya got his hair to defend himself. tobirama isnt taking a hit from Ei. then again he got hirashin to get out of the way. hiruzen has enma staff. minato was never hit by Ei so i dont know why u bring them up 

all those u mentioned can actually defend against Ei punch. doesnt mean they can avoid it. however unlike hanzo they have techniques to defend his punch. hanzo got only his face to defend the punch


> But I digress because Ei literally can't survive a hit from Hanzo's poison. So even if the Hanzo can't survive a blow, that only makes things even in that regard. The rest will come down to who can hit who first, and whether they can do that w/o being hit themselves, which largely depends on knowledge, distance, and how each acts IC. Which if something like Distance can decide the match they aren't as far apart as your making them out to be.


[/QUOTE]

sure because poison is much faster than jugo canon that Ei avoided point blank. maybe cuz u think hanzo can summon and have ibuse poison gas the place. before EI closes the distance and kills him 

again if u going to put them 100's of meters apart then that implies one needs an obvious advantage. no different from starting deidara sky high then claiming he is on the level cuz he would easily be able to use C3 against ground opponents. 

nonetheless slower ninja than Ei have crossed horribly further distances than poison gas in 1 shunshin. Ei would do the same

note v1 Ei went so far with his shunshin that karin a sensor coudlnt even tell that he escaped jugo canon. Ei will never loose to hanzo at 1m or 1000m

note the poison gas dissipates. it doesnt linger on the battlefield. or kishi would have implied it by showing signs of the cloud still being there. wasnt implied it floods the area then dissipates after a while. This to me seems obvious considering mifune only felt the need to hold his breath when ibuse came from under.if poison gas was already all over the place therefore implying mifune is entirely* immune and not resistant to it* then mifune would have had no need to hold his breath

considering he would have pulled poison air in if it was still in the air. 

the poison gas is horribly less hax than people think


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2015)

@Icegaze

I can't have this discussion with you until you become realistic about the size of Ibusei's gas cloud:



The Gas Cloud is large in scope than the large mountain in the panel, and is roughly just as tall. 

Fuuton Atsugi, carved out a sizable chunk of forest, but is nowhere near the size of a gas cloud that is wide than a large mountain and nearly as tall. Nether is being able to fill two rooms w/ Acidic Mist. Even B's shunshin is from mountain peak to mountain peak, which not comparable to the width of a large mountain at it's center [and than some].


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> @Icegaze
> 
> I can't have this discussion with you until you become realistic about the size of Ibusei's gas cloud:
> 
> ...



ok turrin its larger. 
now explain how atsugi which has a Db statement of being fast and can level a chunk of a forest can still be avoided by kakashi in the air at point blank range.

yet u think poison gas with no speed to it, would be impossible to dodge for anyone on that general level

note kakashi is horribly slower than Ei. and kakashi in mid air avoided something which is faster than poison gas with alot of AoE at point blank

then remember Ei point blank evaded jugo chakra canon and went so far karin couldnt sense him anymore

So yh no issues avoiding it for most high level shinobi. either through speed, or using jutsu 

like gai did to 6tail acid gas. 

its not some uncountrable super speed gas coming their way. 

a smaller katon is more than enough to disperse it making it harmless. since u know its the concentration of poison gas that makes it dangerous. 1 part per million in 4m3 of air wont be nearly as deadly as 5000 parts per million in the same volume


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2015)

Also can't have this conversation, until you explain to me how covering the scope of a Large-Mountain [and than some] in three panels is not a massive speed feat. 

And that Kakashi reactions are better than V1-Ei's, considering that Kakashi is equivalent or better than Three-Tome Sasuke, who out reacted V1-Ei, evading his elbow and landing Chidori on him.i

Edit: Basically by the time Chiyo thinks, "that's poison gas", the gas has covered the scope of a large mountain and than some. How is not insanely fast.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Also can't have this conversation, until you explain to me how covering the scope of a Large-Mountain [and than some] in three panels is not a massive speed feat.
> 
> And that Kakashi reactions are better than V1-Ei's, considering that Kakashi is equivalent or better than Three-Tome Sasuke, who out reacted V1-Ei, evading his elbow and landing Chidori on him.i
> 
> Edit: Basically by the time Chiyo thinks, "that's poison gas", the gas has covered the scope of a large mountain and than some. How is not insanely fast.



 
kakashi reactions better than Ei when Ei reactions are compared to minato
 
making things up now 

so i guess atsugi is also insanely fast and cant be avoided since it covered that range in 1 panel vs the 3 panels coering a wider range 


the author didnt imply it to be fast therefore its not. why would he mention this is fast or this is several times then fail to mention poison gas. is he picking on hanzo? 

kishi even mentions when attacks are slow or fast. if he dont mention it, the speed then its not fast. simply put. when a jutsu is fast kishi has always emphasized it. always!

again tobirama explosive tag jutsu AoE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ibuse poison gas. yet must be timmed so its not avoided. as stated in DB. i mean why cant tobirama just use it at will and catch his enemy in it since its got such an AOE, do note the range of it in 1 panel. go back and check. 

also ibuse poison gas AoE<<<<<<<<<<<<killer bee 1 shunshin or the range which karin can sense 
which ei out ran in 1 V1 shushin 

u simply dont like a different opinion that isnt pole dancing hanzo 

not my fault. 

covering anything in 3 panels isnt fast. at all. not when we have tsunade outpacing giant fast movign snakes like manda when rusty. how large do u think manda is compared to the forest?

quick question though do u think Ei cant outrun poison gas if he sees it coming?

do u also think if poison gas comes kakuzu way or deidara way or kisame way that they become defenseless? cant atsugi blow it away, suiton disperse it. as for sasori he can bask in hanzo poison and be just fine. 

not trying to be annoying i just dont get how any mid level would have an issue with poison gas. Either they overpower by countering with a technique. Eg deidara uses any bomb and no more poison gas 
or outrunning it like Ei or killer bee or sasuke or kakashi would do.


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2015)

There's no reason we need to be told something is fast, when we are directly shown it's fast. Covering an area greater than the size of a large mountain by the time Chiyo can think "that's poisonous" is insanely fast.


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## Icegaze (Apr 14, 2015)

but it took 3 panels. or are u now claiming it didnt take 3 panels?

actually we need to be told. bijuudama which can easily cover that range in a panel was stated by obito to be a slow technique 

yet he considers kakashi shunshin as well as sasuke's to be fast

also bee covered a greater distance in 1 shunshin. that should tell u its really not that fast, if it takes 3 panels or since u changed ur mind,  the time it took chiyo to make her comment 

killer bee in 1 shunshin staight up vanished in front of sasuke, suigetsu and jugo. Karin had to pretty much sense him to find out where he had gone

Now considering that distance. She could still sense bee

yet when Ei avoided jugo canon, Ei went so far that karin couldnt even sense him at all. 

Ninja have been shown on more than one occassion to casually cover that distance in a single panel 

even obito!! obito!!! not known for his physical speed shunshin towards KCM naruto at a distance similar to poison gas AOE. note he was at gedo mazo who was very very far away from hachibi and naruto. 1 panel later he is right next to naruto. and this from someone not known for his speed. 

any mid kage level ninja with adequate shunshin outpaces it. Even hiashi air palm gets rid of it. seriously u giving it far too much credit. completely undeserved 

go back and look at the panels.

*edit in anticipation to ur obvious weak retort do note. obito was out of range of this technique. 
removed

to get a better idea 
removed

do note that even if u want to claim obito was close to gobi. that distance between gobi and hachibi is very much the same size at the very least as the forest in length. now obito closed that distance in 1 panel. 

gai and kakashi did the same or even worse. in that same time frame to save naruto. So why exactly are u under the impression that poison gas covering a mountain range in 3 panels is fast?*


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2015)

Are you seriously arguing Kakashi and Sasuke's shunshin are too fast for Obito. I just can't even begin with that shit.

Haishi's air-palm can get read of a mountain sized gas cloud. 

Every-time I try with you I just loose hope or any rational conversation taking place.


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## Icegaze (Apr 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Are you seriously arguing Kakashi and Sasuke's shunshin are too fast for Obito. I just can't even begin with that shit.
> 
> Haishi's air-palm can get read of a mountain sized gas cloud.
> 
> Every-time I try with you I just loose hope or any rational conversation taking place.



am not. however they are faster than he is
 
u just dont like being wrong a habit of urs sadly

lool i loose hope with a guy seeing mei use water dragon from her mouth and then denies she did just so he can say hanzo wins

Thunder and i showed u said panel 3 different times



rational ? from a guy who denies Mei using water dragon without a source. do u want to see the panel again?


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> am not. however they are faster than he is
> 
> u just dont like being wrong a habit of urs sadly
> 
> ...


Thunder hasn't even discussed Ibusei's gas cloud with me lol, so is this just in your imagination?


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## Icegaze (Apr 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Thunder hasn't even discussed Ibusei's gas cloud with me lol, so is this just in your imagination?



doesnt stop 
the fact that u made up Mei not being able use water dragon without a water source 

do u want to see the panel again


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> doesnt stop
> the fact that u made up Mei not being able use water dragon without a water source
> 
> do u want to see the panel again


You can't show me something that doesn't exists, but this belongs in the Mei thread.


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## Icegaze (Apr 15, 2015)

I have already sent u the link before 
The denial is strong in you 
Please go read chapter 577 better yet suck on this panel 
...

Let it be known I used my phone to troll u on this one 
Have u looked at the panel 
Did u notice the water comes from Mei mouth 

Try a lot harder . Btw Shame I can't neg u again or I would have for denying something shown to u on pNel


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 15, 2015)

Hanzo in his prime the only feat we really have is that he was stronger than 3 Sannin but we don't know exactly how strong the Sannin were at that point of time but we can definitely deduce they weren't as strong as they were current time in the manga because any one person bar Rikudo Lites could take on the Sannin at once , at best I would probably give them Pt 1 Kakashi , Gai , Asuma level meaning they were promising elite Jounins , the 3 of them would give many Kage level opponents a difficult time but that isn't strong enough to push someone who is considered stronger than Pain so thats the max right there but we know he's stronger than Jiraiya who admitted knowing his own strength he couldn't fathom someone being able to defeat Hanzo.


know the question is what shinobi fit into the criteria of someone who os stronger than Jiraiya but not stronger than Pain 

Danzo, Minato, , Hiruzen(Prime) would probably fit the bill


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## Thunder (Apr 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Thunder hasn't even discussed Ibusei's gas cloud with me lol, so is this just in your imagination?



Apparently, I'm the official unbiased third party for all Turrin vs. Icegaze debates.


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## Icegaze (Apr 15, 2015)

Lol sorry to put you in the middle but he has straight up denied a panel i have shown him 4 times
in 2 different panels we basically see the flood dragon coming out of mei mouth. kishi showed it on 2 different panels not even 1 panel

nah common!!! there is no way you dont get why i am being a pest here he is straight up trolling and for no reason


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## Thunder (Apr 15, 2015)

I'm not complaining. We've all had some good debates lately. 

And yeah, I agree with that as I said in the other thread (Mei is just able to create a huge water dragon because she's cool like that).

But Turrin is entitled to his own interpretation of those panels.


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## Icegaze (Apr 15, 2015)

he isnt entitled to troll just because he wants hanzo to win
thats no different from saying war arc kakashi doesnt have a sharingan 
its that dumb


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 15, 2015)

I would agree with IceGaze's statement here.

 After all, even Darui can use a high level Suiton that only Tobirama was capable of using and Mei's proficiency with Suiton seems to be far above Darui's. 

 So it's possible that Mei can definitely use her technique without a water source.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I would agree with IceGaze's statement here.
> 
> After all, even Darui can use a high level Suiton that only Tobirama was capable of using and Mei's proficiency with Suiton seems to be far above Darui's.
> 
> So it's possible that Mei can definitely use her technique without a water source.



The scale of Darui's Suitons is vastly smaller than Mei's. Only Kisame has produced Suitons at the scale of Mei's water Dragon and larger, and Kisame can only due that due to having Bijuu chakra supplies; and even Kisame hasn't applied shape manipulation of that degree to his larger Suitons, as he just barfs out pure water or at most water in circular shape. I'm not sure I see a reason to believe Mei is on that level, when the DB provides a perfectly rational explanation, in that she can draw water from underground with her other Suiton technique and combine that with water she vomits out to create a large Water-Dragon.

And no the manga does not show Mei producing the water-dragon w/o creating a water source first, it only shows that she can add water to a preexisting water source by vomiting out more.


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## Icegaze (Apr 16, 2015)

oh wow. panel denial at its best.  
so why did kishi draw the water dragon coming out of Mei mouth
Ah thunder u see why am livid now right. ah common!!! is hanzo lying in bed next to you turrin?


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## Jad (Apr 16, 2015)

Wasn't Hanzo hailed for his strategic mind?


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## Icegaze (Apr 16, 2015)

he was. but i dont see why Mei sees poison gas coming and doesnt respond with flood dragon or acid mist
this is assuming 
she can shunshin out of the way. she is no killer bee but killer bee shunshin a mountain range in a panel. mist spreading over a forest in 3 panels isnt some unavoidable thing. 

better for mei to counter though and she can


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 16, 2015)

Jad said:


> Wasn't Hanzo hailed for his strategic mind?



 That could mean many things such as Hanzo being a tactical leader, being able to gain the support of hundreds of ninja and form an alliance with Danzo to take down one of the Akatsuki's previous leaders (Yahiko) at the time.

 His fight against Mifune showed nothing to be really strategic besides blindsiding Mifune with Ibuse. Besides that, I don't see how Hanzo could be a strategic ninja in terms of combat.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 16, 2015)

Turrin said:


> We are talking in deeper specifics than just the tone.



Nowe're talking about Jiraiya's tone



> Jiraiya's statement distinguishes Tsunade, as being more effective or at least equally effective on the battlefield than in a Tent. Something that was not established for Medic's prior to that point.



*1.)* What does it matter if it was a Genin? Someone that was a Chūnin or Jōnin would pass out all the same were they hit with the technique; Kabuto knocking _anyone_ out with a medical Jutsu means he can knock _enemies_ out with it, and we had already learned he was capable of fighting at least ten Anbu and that after seeing his skills Kakashi thought his current strength would be obsolete.

*2.)* The fanbook, like the databook, just repeats what the manga already laid out for us. Maxims like "only another one of the Sannin can defeat a Sannin" don't make sense unless they're all every bit a match for each other, and we already had that saying.

*3.)* No it didn't. What I'm referring to happened in chapter 154 and was clarified in chapters 155-6. Jiraiya's statement came in chapter 158.

Even the talk about the greatness of the advocacy for making sure that one of the members of the basic cells that would be acting autonomously on tours would be a medical specialist doesn't make sense if medics weren't actually _more_ effective on the battlefield than in tents away from the action, and we had that information before Jiraiya's comment as well. If they were more effective in tents then they would be kept in tents, not put into platoons.



> Are you denying the possibility that someone could be stronger than Tsunade in a 1v1, but less beneficial to their side in a battle. Or to put it another way are you denying that Tsunade could loose to someone in a 1v1, but guide her team to victory against that same person's team, because of her effectiveness rises in a Team-Setting?



Not necessarily. There are several ninja of different types who could possibly face someone stronger than themselves in a one-on-one but be more beneficial to their side in a team setting, so what if Tsunade might be one of them in some cases. (You won't get me saying more than "some cases", as the concept of multi-man fights being more burdensome than beneficial is not foreign to the Narutoverse; Tsunade may be able to keep her teammates alive longer with her heals, but that also entails that she has that much less Chakra to use on healing herself and/or refocus to attack with, so there are still risks of drawbacks with her as with anybody else.)

However once it becomes a team setting it's not _Tsunade's_ battle anymore, it's the conglomerate's; that's why we call Madara's introductory fight "The Five Kage vs. Madara" instead of "Tsunade vs. Madara". She raises the team's effectiveness collectively, her own does not rise. If we want to talk about Tsunade we think about what she can do _herself_. That is the difference between Tsunade playing recovery battery for the other four Kage to battle and pushing ahead of them to herself fight once she activated Sōzō Saisei; it's why Tsunade herself said there had just been 4 instead of 5 (i.e.- she wasn't even considering herself to have counted, neither was Madara for that matter) and why Madara only acknowledged her once the former happened.

If you want such an example of someone whose _own_ effectiveness rises when placed in a team setting, look at Sage Mode users like Naruto and Jiraiya- their Sage Mode teacher himself stated that it is an ability most effective when you have teammates covering for you.



> In the first example it's what Kishi is trying to convey to readers for the first time. We haven't seen there can be medics more or equally effective in battle, as they are in a tent. So Kishi is conveying that to us. However Kishi at that point doesn't want us to know why Tsunade is so effective "in battle",  as otherwise he'd just have Jiraiya list of her abilities. But that doesn't mean Kishi doesn't have these ideas in mind. Now looking back we can figure out why Tsunade is so effective in battle, because Kishi has revealed why over the course of the story.



And?

We'd never seen Katsuyu before. We hadn't seen giant slugs be more or equally effective at healing than fighting. Tsunade was the one to instigate the summoning phase of the Sannin's Showdown, i.e.- Katsuyu was brought out for _offensive purposes_. We learned Katsuyu could spray rock-formation-disintegrating acid before we ever learned she could heal people. _That's_ what Kishi was conveying to readers for the first time about Katsuyu, not a healing slug.

Your "looking back" point contradicts everything you've been saying so far.

You: "He's distinguishing battle from medic- tent healing."

Flamey: "There are field medics and tent medics. Jiraiya would be distinguishing between battle and support, not battle and medic, because.."

You: "We didn't know those things yet" (This is _wrong_, btw.)

You: "Databook 4 says Katsuyu has her own restoration abilities"

Flamey: "We didn't know that yet"

Make up your mind. Either what we learn matters regarding what Jiraiya was saying or it doesn't.  If looking back with what we have been given now flies then like I said Jiraiya would have been distinguishing combat from support, not from medic. Over the course of the story Kishi has simply reiterated what we already knew about Tsunade- she could be classified as both an offensive unit as well as well as an auxiliary one (we have evidence of this even before Jiraiya's statement). Essentially, she was a fighter _first_ then became a healer later, and she's first-class in both respects. Katsuyu is in a similar boat. If looking back _doesn't_ fly then you don't get to bring up something like Kuchiyose: Katsuyu as an example of a support ability that isn't a medical technique, because we didn't know about that yet.

In your own translation Jiraiya does not say "no person's Jutsu" has stood shoulder to shoulder with her battle or medical Jutsu, he says "no person" has stood shoulder to shoulder with her Jutsu. Meaning whether it's just because of her Jutsu or not, Tsunade is unmatched either way, according to him.



> So than why are we still even discussing this Tsunade statement.



Because carrying people _away from_ battle is to keep oneself _uninvolved in_ battle, eliminating any necessity for a second mention of battle once war had already been brought up earlier. It cannot be what is being referred to, especially going by your own silly logic of "we didn't know about it yet".



> I don't think Jiriaya had all of these techniques, but I do think Jiraiya being capable of teaching the mechanics of such a wide array of different types of Ninjutsu to three separate individuals, demonstrates a high understanding off the inner workings of Ninjutsu, that I don't think Jiraiay would have unless he was already quite proficient in the art.



It's possible for ninjas to have understandings of such things exceeding their own proficiency. It's especially likely in the case of the Sannin whose superlative sensei was renowned as _the Professor_.



> The problem is I see no indication that Tsunade did not have these things.



There are no indications that she most likely did either.

It was losing Nawaki that inspired her to become a medical specialist and establish a system of assigning medical specialists as one of the members of the basic cells. That didn't happen until Nawaki's 12th birthday in the middle of this same war, which could have been before or after the fight with Hanzō, there's not really anything pointing in one direction more than the other.

You admit that you can't narrow it down, so why assume that she did besides you just kind of wanting to?



> Do you think War-Arc Three-Tome Kakashi gets stomped by a Sannin? If not than literally nothing changed, but stamina?



What evidence do you have for stamina being the only difference between war-arc three-tomoe Kakashi and Part 1 Kakashi?The Mangekyō isn't the only new thing he showed in Part 2, he also displayed Raiton Kage Bunshin, Raijū Tsuiga, Raiden, Raiton-flowed Kunai, etc. (Kakashi having bundles of Jutsu since Part 1 doesn't necessarily mean that the ones he showcased in Part 2 had always been there and weren't recent developments), gained more experience, apparently increased his hand-seal speed (Sakura remark), direct movement speed (Obito remark), reflexes, etc.

Stamina only "makes a world of difference" provided Kakashi is already able to compete. *He is not able to do such a thing at all.* Part 1 Kakashi was one-shotted by Orochimaru's killing intent alone and is below the old Hiruzen that admitted he wouldn't be able to stand against Orochimaru even before he learned about Edo Tensei.

You telling me Kakashi was going to fight Orochimaru and then when Orochimaru invited him to kill him he just suddenly saw a vision of his own head flying off because he had a spontaneous realization like "oh my gosh I don't have enough stamina to fight him how stupid am I"? Turrin please.

It never comes down to outlasting.

There is pretty much nothing Kakashi can do about Doton: Yomi Numa, for example. Yatai Kuzushi neither for that matter, since the landing would destroy the ground immediately beneath the toad Kakashi's not likely to be able to avoid it with just a Doton.

A fresh, in-shape Tsunade that's gotten back into the swing of things would destroy him up close. She's more skilled than he is in Taijutsu, he can't block, he can't afford to trade shots like Kabuto because he can't negate her strength like he could, terrain destruction has thrown even his more experienced Part 2 self off before and Tsunade isn't above resorting to it IC.

Orochimaru would also destroy him up close with Nan no Kaizō's flexibility/elasticity, techniques like Sen'ei Tajashu, Jagei Jubaku, Mandara no Jin, and Kusanagi snipes that have the potential to be telekinetic.

But forget all that. Hanzō used his signature Ibuse against the Sannin, so those are fair game as far as the comparison goes, right? What happens if the Sannin use theirs? If Kakashi doesn't simply get squashed beneath the initial summoning he still lacks any sort of response to any of them, even if we multiply him by three. Kakashi does not operate on the scale necessary to actually pose a threat to creatures of that size and toughness, and their own techniques are large enough that he'll be having difficulty avoiding them. Jiraiya and Gamabunta still roast him, Tsunade and Katsuyu still melt him, and Orochimaru and Manda still run him over.

There is no competition whatsoever.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 16, 2015)

> Kabuto raped Shizune. Tsunade own'd Shizune with a blindside attack. So this Shizune stuff is an exaggeration.



_That_ Kabuto was on roids, and they were fighting while Jiraiya and Orochimaru were; even after the needle projectile-Scalpel-Poison Fog-Doton dig  sneak attack exchange they apparently kept fighting for at least a little bit, because they somehow managed to get so far to Tsunade's _opposite side_ that when Kabuto punches her in the face _back towards the side they used to be on_ Shizune lands _in front of_ Tsunade. It could have only taken longer in an encounter where Kabuto wasn't on roids, and where Shizune wasn't trying to stand between Kabuto and a traumatized Tsunade.

And _blindside attack_? Are you serious right now? _She was looking right at Tsunade and explicitly stated that she'd give up her life to stop her_, and even had the extra warning of Tsunade _growling at her_ and saying she shouldn't dare use that tone with her. That was no cheap shot, she just couldn't defend herself.



> This is called using ones abilities effectively. There is no advantage or disadvantage there. Kabuto used his skills to evade Tsunade's blows until she tired, and than used his skills to make a soldier pill, which he than popped to get the edge.



It's called admitting how outclassed you are without saying a word.

All of Tsunade's handicaps are advantages for Kabuto, prior intel and devising of a plan beforehand are additional advantages. Kabuto was on Kakashi's competitive level _before_ the augmentation of the Hyōrōgan, so with those in his system...against a fallen Tsunade that had been weakened even further...

There was no _combat_ even involved in the initial stages. Kabuto straight up _ran in the opposite direction_, with the chase starting in an area that had high structures able to be used to largely remove the opening provided by the fall resulting from being forced into the air by the devastation of Tsunade's strikes, which would only grow less destructive as she tired while they approached the Grassy Waves Prairie. That, and Tsunade wasn't exclusively focused on him, she was in a blind rage that was directed _primarily_ at _Orochimaru_.

Once they got out to the field the scale of the destruction caused by Tsunade's strikes had diminished considerably, and it was only at that sucking air point that Kabuto amped himself up before approaching her. _That_ is the start of fallen Tsunade _vs. Kabuto_, and it still ended with him being forced to abuse her phobia, a tactic that requires no combat competence and could be pulled by anyone and their grandma.



> Kabuto exploited her hemophobai after Jiraiya arrived and he didn't wish to face 2 Sannin at once.
> 
> Before that Kabuto was keeping pace with Tsunade quite well and she even acknowledge his skills.



He overtly stated that he was planning to do it _before_ Jiraiya showed up (as if reaching for his kunai pouch before even realizing his neural system has been disoriented wasn't enough of an admission), their arrival just interrupted him momentarily.

As for "keeping pace quite well"...I'm just repeating that Kabuto was on Kakashi's competitive level _before_ the augmentation of the Hyōrōgan, so with those in his system, and an already weakened Tsunade having already been weakened even further...all of the conditions were in his favor once they actually fought, and he still had to resort to a tactic that required no combat expertise (cutting himself ) in order to stop her.

He only ever managed to touch her with that crucial muscle-severing tap once she, seeing red and in her extreme rustiness, left herself airborne (i.e.- unable to evade even though she saw him move) with a diagonally rising back kick, and even then he had to take a hit the moment he got her. His slipperiness and the bolstering of the Hyōrōgan just let him survive until he lucked out that Tsunade messed herself up.

Tsunade was also referring specifically to Kabuto's Chakra Scalpels and ability to figure out how to move under Ranshinshō so quickly. Pity neither of those things even apply to Kakashi.



> Normal social behavior is to immediately accept a rumor as true?



Yes. Yes that is normal social behavior, from middle school through adulthood up to and past 54 years old. Politicians and their agendas _ride_ on that crap.

Did you know that even grown the more people hear about something related to a rumor the more likely they are to buy into it, especially if the rumor is widespread? That when a rumor is surprising it is more likely to stick? That when somebody is thinking of a topic already they're more likely to buy into the rumor? That when the rumor involves something bad happening to someone they don't like they're more likely to buy into it regardless? That when it is difficult to disprove they're more likely to buy into it? (Did you know all of those actually apply to Jiraiya?) Etc., etc., etc., and that's assuming they don't just buy into it without a reason.



> And I can't imagine someone smart as yourself  tactually believes any rumor someone tells you. And if you don't believe every rumor, why are you arguing Jiriaya does. It doesn't make sense to me.



I don't, but then, Jiraiya is not me and I wouldn't use myself as a stardard because I know I'm more strict about that than most people anyway. Jiraiya on the other hand is the closest thing in the Narutoverse to a hipster.



> Jiraiya's rebuttal was going to find out more about Pain, which is exactly what he did.



No, he specifically said he was going to go _fight_ Pain, which is exactly what he did, and is not a rebuttal.



> However I have yet to see you put forward any real reasoning as to why Jiraiya wouldn't even consider the possibility that the Rumor was false.



I don't need to put forth reasoning as to why he wouldn't consider the possibility that the rumor was false because I never claimed that he wouldn't, and I already pointed out that questioning validity doesn't necessarily lead to a rejection of the rumor, instead actually often preceding provisional acceptance.

I listed a reason why another rumor would make more sense because that in and of itself would be evidence the description of the event that's been spread around is authentic. It could have occurred to Jiraiya that if it were made up, a better job could have been done of it, and yet it wasn't, therefore it's less likely than one might initially think to have actually been made up. It could have occurred to Jiraiya that if nobody was there to see Hanzō and everything he stood for get burned to the ground that suggests that nobody was helping out when Hanzō was killed. It could have occurred to Jiraiya that he didn't have any way to disprove to claims. All of those "a person is more likely to buy into a rumor if x" things I listed earlier apply here, too.

Professional teachers, scientists, historians, philosophers, etc. have bought into rumors that they were shocked to even hear about and for no reason other than the fact that somebody emailed them saying so; what the crap is it about Jiraiya being 54 years old that is supposed to make him more resistant to buying into rumors than them?



> Again you not seeing why Jiraiya couldn't be astonished, isn't a real argument.



That is so freaking hypocritical...you just did the _same thing in your own post_. 

I didn't say it was an argument, though. "I don't see why not" is an invitation for you to provide a reason why not as I currently lack any reason to doubt what my claim supposedly requires me to believe. Why is what I said so hard to believe? _You_ are being asked to show _that_.

Argumentation only requires that you provide something that makes one claim more likely than another, which is what I did and what you failed to address. I'll repeat it and see if you actually don't skip over it this time:

If Jiraiya thought he could go fight the Akatsuki leader while being so lax as to forgo bothering to first enter Sage Mode while he has the chance and still not take long it implies that he believes himself superior to said leader of Akatsuki. Provided that Jiraiya also believes Orochimaru's level of ability to be more or less equivalent to his own, as I think he does, then it's most likely that Jiraiya would be astonished to learn that said leader of Akatsuki was about as strong as Orochimaru just like he would be shocked to learn that he was as strong as himself.



> He knew many ninja who were around Orochimaru's "level".



What ninja? 

The only two ninja in Akatsuki he directly knew were Itachi and Kisame.

Kisame already admitted for us in canon that he isn't even in the same league as a Sannin, and all he did when Jiraiya showed up was get saved by Itachi. Meanwhile all Jiraiya knows about Itachi is that he has Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu; Itachi isn't stronger than the Sannin until Susano'o is factored in (he's apparently seen as weaker by people like Kakashi), and Jiraiya didn't know about that.

We also don't see Jiraiya's reaction in the moment he first learned of Orochimaru's death like we do with Hanzō's case, so I don't know where you pulled that line about it not shocking him as much as Hanzō being killed did. In addition to that, Jiraiya was researching Orochimaru's Fūshi Tensei technique, so he might've been aware that Orochimaru was weakened at the time of the transfer.



> The leader is likely to be the strongest, whether people joined voluntarily or not.



You're stuck in the "it's a shonen" mindset completely neglecting the fact that the characters in the story don't know they're in a shonen manga. Remember that detail and suddenly leadership doesn't entail superior fighting power.

You talk about keeping them in line, on point, and commanding respect, as if you somehow know that coercive sheer force would be necessary or something when the very fact that they _joined voluntarily_ suggests that they already liked the intentions being pursued and were _already willing to help participate in their facilitation_.



> And again I wasn't using the DB's statement as a literal statement, but rather an indicator.



Irrelevant to my assertion.

Hanzō's fame began before the era of the Sannin, therefore if we receive indications that they're the ones reputed to be the top dogs the implication is that Hanzō has been eclipsed by this point. He's been surpassed, databookily and chronologically speaking.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 16, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> As for "keeping pace quite well"...I'm just repeating that Kabuto was on Kakashi's competitive level _before_ the augmentation of the Hyōrōgan



I find this incredibly silly. Someone's "level" includes every available ability. Kabuto is a medic nin. He can make those pills by himself. Pills were shown to be basic equipment for a lot of different folks. Even non-medics like Kiba. It is simply one way to use medical abilities in combat. Just like his scroll of dead bodies. And Orochimaru knows quite well about all that. 

Kabuto used an elaborate trap in a favorable location just to escape rusty Kakashi. He needs his whole arsenal and every trick to properly compete against him.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 16, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> I find this incredibly silly. Someone's "level" includes every available ability. Kabuto is a medic nin. He can make those pills by himself. Pills were shown to be basic equipment for a lot of different folks. Even non-medics like Kiba. It is simply one way to use medical abilities in combat. Just like his scroll of dead bodies. And Orochimaru knows quite well about all that.
> 
> Kabuto used an elaborate trap in a favorable location just to escape rusty Kakashi. He needs his whole arsenal and every trick to properly compete against him.



We've had this conversation before, I just know it.

You can bring up the chances that Orochimaru _may_ have accounted for it, but what about Kakashi and Jiraiya? You don't see Ino, Chiyo, Sakura, Shizune, or Tsunade popping those pills (we didn't even see Kabuto pop them again against Kn3 or Team Yamato), you don't even see Rin handing them out in the middle of a war, so why would _those two_ think of them when estimating that Kabuto was right there with Kakashi just like Orochimaru did? The fact that Naruto thought Kiba was cheating when he took one while Shikamaru didn't know what they were definitely suggests that they aren't used commonly at all; Chōji *Akimichi* and Kiba is not "a lot of different folks". 

If they _were_ accounting for the pills anyway you'd have to wonder what in the crap _any of them (Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and even Kabuto himself)_ were thinking when they acted as though Shizune was a problem for and even a threat to Kabuto, considering how he dropped her after they'd been taken. Maybe, just maybe, they weren't considering the enhancement because the grand majority of ninja don't usually carry them around like shuriken and kunai~. 


I also want to know in what way that location was favorable for Kabuto. One could argue that if anything the "trap" Kabuto set up only made up for the fact that they were indoors, since that let Kakashi try to guard the doorway with a Kage Bunshin. Had they just been outside Kabuto could have just taken off like he did at the Chūnin Exam Stadium.

Kabuto doesn't need those pills to be competitive with Part 1 Kakashi. Even without the pills he can use the same Doton ability Kakashi can, Nehan Shōja can incapacitate the summoning dogs, his Chakra Scalpels can be manifested on both hands simultaneously and sustained for longer than Kakashi can sustain Raikiri, and he won't be stopped by any attack that doesn't seriously injure his vitals thanks to Shosen and In'yu Shōmetsu, in contrast to Kakashi who could be crippled by so much as a fleeting tap from those Scalpels practically anywhere (which could happen as easily as Kabuto blocking with them).

_With_ the pills you can just imagine...


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## Icegaze (Apr 16, 2015)

I get what you saying Flamming however part 1 kabuto and part 1 kakashi are basically equal. 
perhaps the pills werent accounted for. but i doubt they werent. not every ninja uses pills, however orochimaru wont compare them without taking into account kabuto full ability 

i find it odd kiba never used the pills after his fight with naruto. 

i think there are alot of things kishi just stopped caring about


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## Trojan (Apr 16, 2015)

What Hanzo showed on panel is poor. It's true that in the war arc it's stated that he is weaker because he lost his faith, but that what we have. It's pointless to talk about him in his prime we have no clue how he was in his prime. As for Jiraiya's statement, I believe he's talking about the living people at that time as one thing, and the second thing is his statement is based on what he knows. Surely, he knows a lot of things, but we don't know how much especially about other characters... U_U


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## Icegaze (Apr 16, 2015)

Spot on Hussain 
for one he had no idea how much orochimaru had improved. 
He didnt know of gai ability to use gates (doubt he did at the level gai uses it) 
What he knew of the other kage could have been limited as no info was shared at that time
he knew nothing of itachi, kakuzu etc

so essentially jiriaya statement doesnt have alot to go on. 

I just think its a shame his only shown katon technique requires prep. would be so much better if it could just be summoned immediately then directed towards the opponent 

With what he has shown though. Even the likes of kakuzu seem like gods compared to him. which is just sad


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## Alex Payne (Apr 16, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> We've had this conversation before, I just know it.
> 
> You can bring up the chances that Orochimaru _may_ have accounted for it, but what about Kakashi and Jiraiya? You don't see Ino, Chiyo, Sakura, Shizune, or Tsunade popping those pills (we didn't even see Kabuto pop them again against Kn3 or Team Yamato), you don't even see Rin handing them out in the middle of a war, so why would _those two_ think of them when estimating that Kabuto was right there with Kakashi just like Orochimaru did? The fact that Naruto thought Kiba was cheating when he took one while Shikamaru didn't know what they were definitely suggests that they aren't used commonly at all; Chōji *Akimichi* and Kiba is not "a lot of different folks".


 Hyorogan is an universally known pill. Naruto had zero academic knowledge and near-zero experience at that point. Same with Shikamaru - who while having top-tier brain still had grades nearly as bad as Naruto's because of his laziness. Naruto was also arguing that having a ninja animal alongside you is cheating. Kakashi, Hayate and Asuma were able to instantly recognize it. Hayate even clearly says that it is simple Ninja Tool. Those pills aren't as basic as kunai obviously but still are within basic tools category. Considering that any decently experienced shinobi can instantly recognize what it is. 




FlamingRain said:


> If they _were_ accounting for the pills anyway you'd have to wonder what in the crap _any of them (Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and even Kabuto himself)_ were thinking when they acted as though Shizune was a problem for and even a threat to Kabuto, considering how he dropped her after they'd been taken. Maybe, just maybe, they weren't considering the enhancement because the grand majority of ninja don't usually carry them around like shuriken and kunai~.


Orochimaru not knowing that his extremely skilled medic henchman can't make those pills is simply stupid. You have to remember the context of Orochimaru's strength evaluation. He was warning Kabuto that he can't kill him because his level isn't up there. Kabuto's actions after those words point towards those words being correct. Hell, his face kinda made it obvious that Oro was spot on. Those pills are the equivalent of stuff like chains, caltrops or summoning scroll. They aren't as basic as kunai but still within that general tier. Unless you want to argue that Kakashi jumps a tier every time he uses Doton: Tsuiga no Jutsu. Orochimaru didn't say a single word about Kabuto using Hyorogan. Scans about Shizune being a considered a threat to Kabuto? And every other fight Kabuto was in afterwards were very brief for him - resulting in Kabuto either getting quickly overpowered or quickly backstabbed. 



FlamingRain said:


> I also want to know in what way that location was favorable for Kabuto. One could argue that if anything the "trap" Kabuto set up only made up for the fact that they were indoors, since that let Kakashi try to guard the doorway with a Kage Bunshin. Had they just been outside Kabuto could have just taken off like he did at the Chūnin Exam Stadium.


 It gave Kabuto who happens to be skilled with manipulating dead bodies... a bunch of dead bodies which wouldn't be suspicious.  



FlamingRain said:


> Kabuto doesn't need those pills to be competitive with Part 1 Kakashi. Even without the pills he can use the same Doton ability Kakashi can, Nehan Shōja can incapacitate the summoning dogs, his Chakra Scalpels can be manifested on both hands simultaneously and sustained for longer than Kakashi can sustain Raikiri, and he won't be stopped by any attack that doesn't seriously injure his vitals thanks to Shosen and In'yu Shōmetsu, in contrast to Kakashi who could be crippled by so much as a fleeting tap from those Scalpels practically anywhere (which could happen as easily as Kabuto blocking with them).
> 
> _With_ the pills you can just imagine...


 Pill-less Kabuto was outperformed by Rusty Kakashi who didn't use his Sharingan. You have amped Kabuto perform against exhausted Rusty Tsunade and featless Shizune. You place Sharingan Kakashi against those and he'd perform either just as good or better. Kabuto run away both times he had faced Kakashi directly. Admitting that fighting him without a good plan would end in his moves getting copied. 

Kabuto isn't as skilled in straightforward fighting skills as Kakashi. Nor he is as good in physical stats. He has regen and a bunch of very tricky abilities. And sufficient intelligence to challenge Kakashi's. Saying that something as simple and generic as Soldier Pill was Kabuto's Secret Trump Card is just... Not very nice to Kabuto. It is something _Chunin Exams Kiba_ uses to supplement his fighting style.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 17, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Hyorogan is an universally known pill.



It isn't universally known if there are people who have no knowledge of it, and being known doesn't mean it's commonly used (and thus likely going to be considered in someone's evaluation) anyway.

Shikamaru's poor grades were probably more a product of him not feeling like doing the work than him simply not knowing the answers- I mean he recognized the ringing and silent senbon trick just fine, after all. Ino didn't recognize the pills either and she was supposed to be a good student. Even the first round of the Chūnin Exams involved a test intentionally made to be too difficult for a mere Genin to answer by themselves, so I don't think it's out of the question for a wider selection of tools to be allowed than what was covered in the academy. Even if the Hyōrōgan are permitted in exam battles they're still not _standard_. They don't practically come with the weapon holsters and pouches like shuriken. They're more akin to sleep bombs than they are to weapons of steel and the like insofar as they're not typically utilized, _even by medics_. It's the same reason we don't think "sleep bomb" when we think of Sakura and Tsunade like we think of "weapon scroll" when we think of TenTen.

Kakashi recognizes the pills, but it's with "?!" as if he's surprised to see them being used. Never do the exam participants throwing weapons get that reaction from him. Tsunade also has the "...!" and "!!" as if she wasn't expecting them to be pulled out. Plus the way Orochimaru talked about it ("it might be time to use 'it' now") just doesn't seem like the way someone would be talking if they're thinking of something essentially in the same class as a kunai. That's the mark of an uncommon tool if I've ever seen one, and it's probably no coincidence that Kabuto only bothered to use it one time in the manga, it probably wasn't being thought of when he was said to be the same as Kakashi.



> Orochimaru not knowing that his extremely skilled medic henchman can't make those pills is simply stupid.



It's also a spectacular strawman you just pulled. You can't find any post of mine anywhere that contains me making the claim "Orochimaru didn't know Kabuto could make those pills".

That's why I asked about _Jiraiya and even Kakashi himself instead_.



> You have to remember the context of Orochimaru's strength evaluation. He was warning Kabuto that he can't kill him because his level isn't up there.



?

Of course?

The context was Orochimaru's taunting of Kabuto about the prospect of stopping him, the evaluation was simply used as Orochimaru's explanation as to why that would never happen. (You can't stop me _because_ you're only as strong as Kakashi.)

What does that have to do with anything I'm saying, though?



> Scans about Shizune being a considered a threat to Kabuto? And every other fight Kabuto was in afterwards were very brief for him - resulting in Kabuto either getting quickly overpowered or quickly backstabbed.



_Sweating_ Kabuto _praises her_.

Orochimaru saying it might be _problematic_ if she interferes again so they need to get rid of her.

Jiraiya thinking Shizune has it in her to be able to _handle Kabuto_.

She's clearly dangerous enough to him.

As I said earlier responding to Turrin, Kabuto did not actually engage Tsunade until _after_ he swallowed the Hyōrōgan. Not a single one of Kabuto's other fights has been _so_ brief that he didn't have the time to swallow some pills. Following the Tsunade encounter example he should have taken a pill before even charging Kn3, for instance.



> It gave Kabuto who happens to be skilled with manipulating dead bodies... a bunch of dead bodies which wouldn't be suspicious.



Dead bodies aren't a part of the location, especially not when _Kakashi is the one who stationed them there_ and the only reason they're dead is _because Kabuto killed them himself_.



> Pill-less Kabuto was outperformed by Rusty Kakashi who didn't use his Sharingan.



That wasn't Kabuto, though, that was just a corpse that he manipulated and Kakashi fell for. _Kabuto_ is the one who jumped out of the window while removing his mask like he was in some kind of movie or something.



> Kabuto run away both times he had faced Kakashi directly.



Implying he was only facing Kakashi the second time when that was a 2 on 3 fight of Kabuto and Baki vs. Kakashi, Gai, and Genma waiting to happen.

Baki and Genma had been at it since Sasuke left, so the fact that Genma was still uninjured suggests that Baki wasn't going to come close to making up for Gai's presence. If Kabuto is on Kakashi's level he can't handle _two_ Kakashi level fighters at once, the risk of getting his techniques copied is significantly heightened in _that_ circumstance. A retreat there does nothing to suggest that he'd have been unable to compete with just Kakashi were they to have fought right then.



> Kabuto isn't as skilled in straightforward fighting skills as Kakashi.



Orochimaru said that Kabuto's only chance at stopping him was to kill Sasuke because he could not _kill Orochimaru himself_. How did Orochimaru justify that? By pointing out that Kabuto was only as strong as Kakashi. The implication is that because there's no hope of him winning a straightforward fight with Orochimaru _due to him merely being equivalent to Kakashi_, his only feasible option was to resort to indirect methods such as attempting to kill Sasuke.

And Jiraiya said Kabuto had the same power as Kakashi when they were on the wide open Grassy Waves Prairie. I don't know what he could have meant by that _besides_ his level in regards to a straightforward fight.



> And sufficient intelligence to challenge Kakashi's.



His intelligence probably _exceeds_ Kakashi's.


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2015)

@FlamingRain;

I'm going to try and cut to the heart of the discussion here and eliminate some points, because I feel some have become superfluous and others I just don't think were going to see eye to eye about [like my translation vs Viz, and such]. So forgive me for ignoring some point, It's not that I didn't read them or am belittling them, I just don't see them going anywhere. So moving on:



> However once it becomes a team setting it's not Tsunade's battle anymore, it's the conglomerate's; that's why we call Madara's introductory fight "The Five Kage vs. Madara" instead of "Tsunade vs. Madara". She raises the team's effectiveness collectively, her own does not rise. If we want to talk about Tsunade we think about what she can do herself. That is the difference between Tsunade playing recovery battery for the other four Kage to battle and pushing ahead of them to herself fight once she activated Sōzō Saisei; it's why Tsunade herself said there had just been 4 instead of 5 (i.e.- she wasn't even considering herself to have counted, neither was Madara for that matter) and why Madara only acknowledged her once the former happened.


Jiriaya did not say Tsunade's Battle, 1v1, etc... he just said "in battle". Battle can and most of the time does, involve more than a 1v1. So I'll ask for a third time, what part of the text forces me to believe that Jiriaya considered Tsunade as the strongest in 1v1 combat, versus seeing her as holistically the best when considering the weight of her skills in many different types of battles; 3v3, 4v3, 5v7, 100v100, etc...



> In your own translation Jiraiya does not say "no person's Jutsu" has stood shoulder to shoulder with her battle or medical Jutsu, he says "no person" has stood shoulder to shoulder with her Jutsu. Meaning whether it's just because of her Jutsu or not, Tsunade is unmatched either way, according to him.


The problem is Jutsu do not make up all of a Shinobi's power. Even if her Jutsu are better than Hanzo's, Hanzo can still be stronger than her, due to his other capabilities.



> Because carrying people away from battle is to keep oneself uninvolved in battle, eliminating any necessity for a second mention of battle once war had already been brought up earlier.


So let's forget carrying them off the battlefield. How about Katsuya being used as a shield to defend others from techniques, by wrapping herself around them. Does that not count as being involved in battle, because if so, than your basically saying any time anyone uses a defensive technique to protect their allies from an enemies attack, they are not involved in battle, which I find rather silly.



> Stamina only "makes a world of difference" provided Kakashi is already able to compete. He is not able to do such a thing at all. Part 1 Kakashi was one-shotted by Orochimaru's killing intent alone and is below the old Hiruzen that admitted he wouldn't be able to stand against Orochimaru even before he learned about Edo Tensei. .


Kakashi is able to compete, Ougi and Stamina aside. Orochimaru terrifying Kakashi makes sense, because he Orochimaru was stronger, due to not having the same stamina issues as Kakashi and having powerful Ougi Jutsu. That reaction makes sense, due to those things. 



> There is pretty much nothing Kakashi can do about Doton: Yomi Numa, for example.


Kakashi is one of the best Raiton users in the manga, already mastering and inventing an S-Rank Raiton well before Part I. Yet, he's certainly being done in by a Doton-Tech. That doesn't make sense to me.



> Yatai Kuzushi neither for that matter, since the landing would destroy the ground immediately beneath the toad Kakashi's not likely to be able to avoid it with just a Doton.


Yatai Kuzushi can kill Kakashi. That doesn't mean he can't keep up with Jiraiya, as if Jiraiya had no techniques that could defeat Kakashi, Kakashi wouldn't be keeping up with him he'd be much stronger than him. Yatai Kuzushi is dangerous, no doubt, but if Kakashi has a KB-Feint in play he can survive the technique that way, he can also make it difficult for Jiriaya to jump above him considering his CQC abilities and plethora of Jutsu that cover a myriad of ranges. 



> A fresh, in-shape Tsunade that's gotten back into the swing of things would destroy him up close. She's more skilled than he is in Taijutsu, he can't block, he can't afford to trade shots like Kabuto because he can't negate her strength like he could, terrain destruction has thrown even his more experienced Part 2 self off before and Tsunade isn't above resorting to it IC.


A fresh in shape Tsunade still had a 3.5 in speed. Kakashi has a 4.5, and Sharingan prediction on top of it. There is absolutely no reason to believe he gets destroyed by Tsunade in CQC. He can aim dodge her attacks, and once he see's her physical strength create distance between them, as he is quicker than her. He can use KB to come in close against Tsunade instead of taking the risk himself and slow down her movements w/ paralyzing Raitons even further. I'm sorry, but I just don't see him going down as easily as you claim [pre-Byakugo retecon].



> Orochimaru would also destroy him up close with Nan no Kaizō's flexibility/elasticity, techniques like Sen'ei Tajashu, Jagei Jubaku, Mandara no Jin, and Kusanagi snipes that have the potential to be telekinetic.


Again Kakashi is quicker than Orochimaru, has a plethora of techniques to draw from to defend himself, and so on. 

Mandara no Jin is evaded with Doton. Ksunagi is countered by Rarikiri flow which cuts Orochimaru's sword in half. The rest is just plain evaded with Sharingan prediction and Kage-Bushin.


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2015)

> Kakashi doesn't simply get squashed beneath the initial summoning he still lacks any sort of response to any of them, .


Kakashi would go after the Summoner, just like Naruto went after Animal-Realm. This is Kakashi's only answer even in Part II, as unless Rarikiri variants are effective enough to poof Boss-Summons, he lacks any means of defeating them. Even with Kamui, he can't really use a Kamui that's large enough on the fly to deal significant damage to a Boss-Summon, and even if he could he'd be trading a large amount of chakra to use a single Kamui, just to deal with one Boss-Sized Summon. Basically what i'm saying is Kakashi has never been the type of fighter who would excel at taking down boss-summons, but bad type-match up aside he's still good enough where he won't get owned by Boss-Summons. He's fast enough to evade around Boss-Summons and run up them attacking the summoner, he's skilled enough to target weak spots like the eyes with Raiton-Flow weapons, and he's got Sharingan Genjutsu to at least slow them down until Jiriaya breaks them free. Do I think a single Kakashi looses out to a Sannin riding their boss summom more often than not, yeah I do, but I think this is type mismatch and he's still not hopeless.



> even if we multiply him by three. Kakashi does not operate on the scale necessary to actually pose a threat to creatures of that size and toughness, and their own techniques are large enough that he'll be having difficulty avoiding them. Jiraiya and Gamabunta still roast him, Tsunade and Katsuyu still melt him, and Orochimaru and Manda still run him over


If we multiple Kakashi by three, he's winning against the Boss-Summons. Three Kakashi's are too many targets for the Boss-Summon and Jiriaya/Tsunade/Orochimaru to avoid. They will make their way up the Boss Summon and attack the summoner. None of the Sannin in Base can stand up to 3-Kakashi's in CQC. 

Jiriaya is the closest to a single Kakashi in speed and reactions, but he looses out overall, because Kakashi has Sharingan augmenting him further. There is no way he could avoid attacks from 3 Kakashi at once in Base, for very long, there just isn't, And one attack from them can mean significant damage or death. Jiraiya will need SM to prevent this. Tsunade are even less equipped to avoiding the 3 Kakashi's attacks with inferior speed and reaction to Jiriaya. Without moving to her triumph card [Sousou Saisei] she'd die even easer and if she does move to her triumph it becomes how much chakra does she have in the Yin-Seal to what extent can she really regenerate. Orochimaru w/ the same speed stat as Jiriaya also gets tagged easily by 3 Kakashi, though at least in his case his regen would keep him alive, but Kakashi has a-lot of ways to seal his movements, not the least of which being paralyzing him with Raiton. So Orochimaru also would need one of his ultimates, to really stay afloat; ether Edos to help micromanage the Kakashi or Yamata no Orochi.

All of the Sannin would need their ultimates to defeat 3 Kakashi's and even than I could still see it being a bit dicey for any Sannin bar Yamata no Orochi Oro.



> That Kabuto was on roids, and they were fighting while Jiraiya and Orochimaru were; even after the needle projectile-Scalpel-Poison Fog-Doton dig sneak attack exchange they apparently kept fighting for at least a little bit,


If the extent of Shizune's display is that she was able to fight Kabuto for a bit, after he had just fought a Legendary Sannin, I really don't see what's suppose to impress me about that. 



> nd blindside attack? Are you serious right now? She was looking right at Tsunade and explicitly stated that she'd give up her life to stop her, and even had the extra warning of Tsunade growling at her and saying she shouldn't dare use that tone with her. That was no cheap shot, she just couldn't defend herself.


She still wasn't expecting Tsunade to attack her.



> All of Tsunade's handicaps are advantages for Kabuto, prior intel and devising of a plan beforehand are additional advantages. Kabuto was on Kakashi's competitive level before the augmentation of the Hyōrōgan, so with those in his system...against a fallen Tsunade that had been weakened even further...


No all of these attributes are what made Kabuto roughly equivalent to Kakashi. Kabuto's medical skills which allowed him to create Hyōrōgan and Zōketsugan as well as Kabuto's intelligence and knowledge that allowed him to form a cunning strategy to exhaust Tsunade. These are all legitamate parts of a ninja's capabilities and it would be silly of Orochimaru to say Kabuto can only perform as well as Kakashi, if Orochimaru wasn't accounting for these things, and he could augment his level even further with them. 

Intelligence and knowledge have a stat in the DB. Kishi has always counted Ninja-Tools as part of that Shinobi's strength; scrolls, puppets, swords, dogs, etc... are all part of a shinobi's strength.



> He overtly stated that he was planning to do it before Jiraiya showed up (as if reaching for his kunai pouch before even realizing his neural system has been disoriented wasn't enough of an admission), their arrival just interrupted him momentarily.


He was talking about slicing Tsunade with his Kunai. That's why he says he'll scatter enough that she's at the brink of death. If he was going to scatter his own blood, than Tsunade would not be at the brink of death, she'd just be terrified:
(4)

He also blatantly says that it's bad for him to go against 2 of the legendary sannin, which is why he spreads his own blood on Tsunade:
(4)



> don't, but then, Jiraiya is not me and I wouldn't use myself as a stardard because I know I'm more strict about that than most people anyway. Jiraiya on the other hand is the closest thing in the Narutoverse to a hipster.


So you think your more pre-disposed to look at a rumor with scrutiny than a 54 Year Old Legendary Ninja whose been involved in espionage for decades, and has traveled across the world on a sage like journey.

I'm sorry, but it seems really convenient to me  that your holding Jiriaya to a lower standard than yourself. 



> I don't need to put forth reasoning as to why he wouldn't consider the possibility that the rumor was false because I never claimed that he wouldn't, and I already pointed out that questioning validity doesn't necessarily lead to a rejection of the rumor, instead actually often preceding provisional acceptance.


Allow me to rephrase, than. What you need to do is prove Jiraiya believed the rumor, because otherwise if he did not believe it the point that him going to fight Pain, contradicts the Hanzo statement is moot. Now you might think Jiriaya believed it, but belief is not a good reason to undermine a direct statement, you need to proof, which you have yet to provide. 



> I didn't say it was an argument, though. "I don't see why not" is an invitation for you to provide a reason why not as I currently lack any reason to doubt what my claim supposedly requires me to believe. Why is what I said so hard to believe? You are being asked to show that.


I did provide multiple reasons why not:

"He knew many Ninja who were around Orochimaru's "level", so it shouldn't be that shocking. He directly knew Ninja in Akatsuki that were around Orochimaru's "level" and Orochimaru was in Akatsuki himself, so it shouldn't be that shocking that the Leader would be. It shouldn't be that shocking when he knew at least two characters on a personal "level" who were not even = Orochimaru, but stronger than Orochimaru. It shouldn't be that shocking when both him and his fellow team mate are around Orochimaru's "level". Fuck he was more shocked at the prospect of a single individual beating Hanzo, than Sasuke defeating Orochimaru, so it really shouldn't be that shocking."

Than I asked you to provide yours, that is all.


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2015)

> If Jiraiya thought he could go fight the Akatsuki leader while being so lax as to forgo bothering to first enter Sage Mode while he has the chance and still not take long it implies that he believes himself superior to said leader of Akatsuki.


This is explained by Jiraiya simply not believing the rumor was necessarily true. Until you prove Jiriaya definitely believed the rumor this part of your point is moot.



> Provided that Jiraiya also believes Orochimaru's level of ability to be more or less equivalent to his own, as I think he does, then it's most likely that Jiraiya would be astonished to learn that said leader of Akatsuki was about as strong as Orochimaru just like he would be shocked to learn that he was as strong as himself.


Your stand point demands that Jiraiya believe the Akatsuki-Leader is weaker than Orochimaru. As if Jiraiya thought the Akatsuki-Leader  could be > or = Orochimaru, and he thought Orochimaru was > Hanzo, than he wouldn't be shocked Akatsuki Leader beat Hanzo.

So now let's apply that to you point. I do not think Jiriaya would consider his odds of defeating someone who is = to Orochimaru or even stronger, low. If Jiraiya still considers Orochimaru a close rival to him, than a battle between two shinobi that close should be more than capable of falling ether way, depending on match up, conditions, and so on. Even someone who is somewhat stronger than Orochimaru, Jiraiya could still believe he has a decent chance at beating, as a weaker shinobi can often time still pull wins against slightly stronger ones. Jiriaya himself may have even believed he had the conditional advantages as Pain didn't know his position and location being conducive to his fighting-style. 

So combine that with the fact that Jiraiya did clearly have some doubt in his victory, which is why he sent the Toad-Scroll away in the first place, and I don't see any of Jiraiya actions conflicting with him believing in the possibility that Akatsuki-Leader >= Orochimaru. Where I will agree with you is he probably didn't think AL was VASTLY stronger than Orochimaru, but that's irrelevant, because for your argument to work, you need to prove Jiraiya didn't believe the AL could be even equal to Orochimaru, so VASTLY-Stronger was never something on the table to begin with.



> What ninja?
> 
> The only two ninja in Akatsuki he directly knew were Itachi and Kisame.


Nearly every Major Kage he knew in his life time. I find it suspect tht he wouldn't have been briefed on Kakuzu and Sasori's capabilities. Itachi. Himself and Tsunade. Debatably Shisui. Debatably Sasuke. And so on.



> Meanwhile all Jiraiya knows about Itachi is that he has Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu; Itachi isn't stronger than the Sannin until Susano'o is factored in (he's apparently seen as weaker by people like Kakashi), and Jiraiya didn't know about that.


Itachi w/o Susano'o isn't >= to Sannin percisely, but he's certainly still not far off and that's all Jiriaya knew about Itachi, as he never saw Itachi go all out. So I have no clue why it would be so shocking for Jiriaya to believe Itachi is close to Orochimaru's "level" at his best.



> We also don't see Jiraiya's reaction in the moment he first learned of Orochimaru's death like we do with Hanzō's case, so I don't know where you pulled that line about it not shocking him as much as Hanzō being killed did. In addition to that, Jiraiya was researching Orochimaru's Fūshi Tensei technique, so he might've been aware that Orochimaru was weakened at the time of the transfer.


What I was saying was, Jiraiya accepted that there was someone strong enough to kill Orochimaru, when the information was from a reliable source. He didn't act in disbelief of it. So how exactly would it than shock him to learn another ninja was >= to Orochimaru? That doesn't make sense to me. 



> You talk about keeping them in line, on point, and commanding respect, as if you somehow know that coercive sheer force would be necessary or something when the very fact that they joined voluntarily suggests that they already liked the intentions being pursued and were already willing to help participate in their facilitation.


I talk about these things because the manga highlights them as testaments of Akatsuki Leader's strength

_Tsunade: "Akatsuki"... / Somebody who managed to gather together a group of that strength... // I don't want to think how strong he must be... / And then you're planning to head right into the palm of his hand.

Jiraiya: Well... I guess I should be going.
Tsunade: Make sure you come back alive...

7
Jiraiya: ........
Tsunade: If I lose you on top of everything... I..._

Tsunade very clearly cited those qualities as reasons to believe Akatsuki-Leader could be incredibly strong and she was clearly concerned with whether Jiriaya was strong enough to take him on. Yet somehow it's shocking that AL is >= to a Sannin, and Jiriaya somehow didn't consider him being the Leader didn't have any impact on how strong he was likely to be?


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## FlamingRain (Apr 20, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I'm going to try and cut to the heart of the discussion here and eliminate some points, because I feel some have become superfluous and others I just don't think were going to see eye to eye about. So forgive me for ignoring some point, It's not that I didn't read them or am belittling them, I just don't see them going anywhere.



Alright.



> Jiriaya did not say Tsunade's Battle, 1v1, etc.



He didn't need to. "Battle" in relation to Tsunade is effectively Tsunade's battle. It can't reflect on and be attributed to her otherwise. That's why you didn't have any villagers saying "Naruto and Hinata saved the village", despite her attempt at interference being the trigger for the Kn6 mode that freed Naruto from being pinned to the ground and had the last path of Pain on the ropes as he was chased out of the village, only "Naruto saved the village". 

Tsunade is not like a member of Ino-Shika-Chō with abilities specifically made to coordinate with another person's ability and that person's another's like pieces of a puzzle to maximize potency, she just has abilities that can are effective in multiple roles- abilities that can be applied to her own person to an even greater extent than to another, and that's effectiveness when applied to others can waver _drastically_. Battling effectiveness can't be predicated based on _that_ because it depends on who it is she's applying it to and that could be anyone from living legends like her contemporaries all the way down to fodder foot soldiers that don't know how to do anything except get one-shotted by the enemy (there are such things as allies that are more trouble than they're actually worth)- the focus of power is lost in such a case and there can be very real chances that the abilities of the adversaries happen to blend in a more productive manner whilst Tsunade's efforts amount to wasted Chakra, meaning someone can be more effective than she entirely due to independent factors produced by other agents not Tsunade. Like I said it wouldn't be Tsuande's battle anymore, but the conglomerate's.

And strangely enough?Hanzō's specialties seem more suited to tackling large numbers than single opponents, so I don't know why you're even trying to point towards him simply having a particular fighting style that made him supreme in 1 on 1 combat but not



> Even if her Jutsu are more powerful than Hanzo, Hanzo can still be stronger than her, due to his other capabilities.



That wouldn't make any sense. I know Jutsu don't make up _all_ of a shinobi's power, but if _Hanzō_ were more powerful than she that would entail that's he's able to stand shoulder to shoulder with her Jutsu, even if the only reason he's able to do that is because of factors _in addition to_ his own Jutsu. If that were the case then Jiraiya would have said "no person's Jutsu" instead of "no person"- the fact that he was using "no person" instead implies that there are none able to make up for trailing behind her Jutsu with the other aspects of combat.



> How about Katsuya being used as a shield to defend others from techniques, by wrapping herself around them.



If someone's fighting style is defensive pressure then so be it, but it's still fighting. Defensive tactics are in a different category than auxiliary ones. Hari Jizō is a defensive technique, but it's still a direct fighting technique. Jiraiya has used his toads as shields from sword swings, Sasuke has used snakes as shields from bombs- nothing about that distances them from direct fighting.

The amount of defensive power that's provided by that tactic also correlates _negatively_ with the amount of people Katsuyu melds with, because there'd just be that much more protective substance between each person she's holding and the attack in question, ultimately meaning it's at its potential greatest in a one-on-one scenario and furthermore, depending on what manner of attack hits Katsuyu, it _could_ lead to a counter-attack from her. I.e.- if the opponent was a practitioner of some Taijutsu maneuver, or hurling a chained/wired/roped weapon, etc. they just might find themselves pulled in and held in place for an acid bath (or Tsunade's heel).



> Kakashi is able to compete, Ougi and Stamina aside.



Oh, now it's no longer stamina but "_ougi_ _and_ stamina", although that calls into question the point of you even bringing up his "1000 Jutsus" hype, because according to this they _must_ have all been fodder.

_Raikiri_ is a powerful Ougi Jutsu, though (if Raikiri's still not powerful _enough_ that just goes to show how big the gap that Kakashi's trying to bridge is), to this day only his Mangekyō is a more dangerous technique of his, and Kakashi's stamina increase all the way up to databook 3 didn't even amount to half a tier greater than what it was in databook 1, so I'm not buying that as his excuse for one second.

Kakashi was going to fight Orochimaru and then got put in his place by Orochimaru's killing intent, not by a graph that charted the amount of Chakra Orochimaru had in the tank- it had nothing at all to do with a realization that he lacked the stamina to compete, he just realized that he was completely outclassed.



> Kakashi is one of the best Raiton users in the manga, already mastering and inventing an S-Rank Raiton well before Part I. Yet, he's certainly being done in by a Doton-Tech.



Yes.

The only times we've seen Raiton-Doton interactions in the manga the Raiton has always simply pierced through the Doton, it has never caused the Doton to de-activate. It won't do Kakashi any good to pierce through a _swamp_, that's not going to get him out of it.

Honestly, even gratuitously assuming that for some strange reason unbeknownst to us that a Raiton would ever have the effect of de-activation, every single one of Kakashi's Raitons (though he only ever showed Chidori/Raikiri in Part 1) are all too small to deal with something as large as Yomi Numa. So let's say he actually manages to get a platform beneath his feet, he's still going to be surrounded by the swamp and even the tiny patch of land he managed to return to normal will just be sucked into the rest of the very deep swamp.

Kakashi can't deal with it.



> Yatai Kuzushi is dangerous, no doubt, but if Kakashi has a KB-Feint in play he can survive the technique that way, he can also make it difficult for Jiriaya to jump above him considering his CQC abilities and plethora of Jutsu that cover a myriad of ranges.



Jiraiya doesn't need to jump above him to use Yatai Kuzushi. The summon doesn't have to appear beneath the summoner, they can have it appear in front of them as Tsunade demonstrated (otherwise Katsuyu would have just landed on top of the Hokage Mansion and crushed it).

Kage Bunshin feinting still requires the original to actually get out of the way of the attack, so no I don't expect that kind of thing to work against something like a giant 100 meter toad being dropped on Kakashi with enough force to destroy the ground beneath it (i.e.- retreating underground isn't resulting in safety either).



> There is absolutely no reason to believe he gets destroyed by Tsunade in CQC.



A 3.5 is what Hidan had, and yet he was not only clashing with _Part 2_ Kakashi but running right alongside him as they moved around the battlefield without issue. Tsunade herself already blitzed Shizune despite her higher speed statistic (and I'm not about to buy this _retarded as mess_ excuse that Shizune somehow didn't expect her to attack after Tsunade glared, growled, and reprimanded her in response to Shizune explicitly stating that she was going to lay down her life to stop Tsunade- something that she would only be saying if she knew an assault was imminent), she already managed to repeatedly intercept Orochimaru in spite of his higher speed statistic as well as get up from an inconvenient laying down position, jump over Naruto, and deck him in the face before he could get out of the way despite him paying close enough attention to her to notice the trembling stop before she did it.

A 4.5 speed statistic is no problem once Chakra-intensive movements come into play, as they inevitably will.

The Sharingan really isn't a problem either unless Kakashi focuses exclusively on evading (and even it can't predict the effects produced by Tsunade deciding to manipulate the terrain) , as it still doesn't grant him the ability to perform physical impossibilities like attack and retreat simultaneously. If he ever advances in order to attack himself Tsunade can take advantage of his close-proximity and take him down while he's within her reach, because, again, he can't block her strength. _Ranshinshō_ also allows Tsunade to incapacitate Raiton: Kage Bunshins without making them explode (and they seem to take a second to do that so she _may_ be able to simply back off from them, since she won't have Kakashi impaled a few feet across a giant tail like a certain path of Pain did).

His Part 1 ranged game consists of Suitons and sending his dogs after people. His dogs will get splattered all over the ground and his Suiton projectiles can be either evaded or knocked aside. He's at his most lethal up close, unfortunately he's still much less lethal than Tsunade?she devastates him.



> Mandara no Jin is evaded with Doton. Kusanagi is countered by Raikiri. The rest is just plain evaded with Sharingan prediction and Kage-Bushin.



Except snakes can burrow underground, too, and they're better at digging than people. 

The main threat of the Kusanagi would be Orochimaru suddenly spitting it out if Kakashi gets close and/or telekinetically manipulating it to stab him through the back. It's the catching him off guard that's most dangerous; Kakashi's Raikiri might be able to block a slash (it most definitely will _not_ cut it in half when slamming it with adamantine-form Enma couldn't do jack to it but hurt Enma himself), but he could only do that if he knew that he needed to in time, and if he doesn't even see it coming he won't. Kakashi went straight to Raikiri as soon as he saw Orochimaru in Part 1, Orochi could just let himself get stabbed and then spit a sword in Kakashi's face.

The other techniques emerge pretty quickly _(1)_ _(2)_ and can have a pretty sizable range _(3) _ _(4)_, if Kakashi's near Orochimaru or trying to approach him he's going to have issues, and just evading isn't going to get him anywhere.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 20, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Basically what i'm saying is Kakashi has never been the type of fighter who would excel at taking down boss-summons, but bad type-match up aside he's still good enough where he won't get owned by Boss-Summons.



Kakashi was going to try and take off GM's head, I think he can hurt a boss summon (besides Katsuyu) sufficiently enough with the Mangekyō.

You're sitting here lying to yourself trying to play it off as a matchup problem. Look at the other ninja at or nearing Part 1 Kakashi's general level and compare how they fare against them. Kabuto couldn't take them down, Shizune couldn't, Asuma couldn't, Kurenai couldn't, Zabuza couldn't, etc., etc., etc. The vast majority of ninja that aren't themselves Kage level and even a few Kage levels would never "excel at taking down" _boss_ summons, which is realistic because chieftain summonings are such an extremely rare encounter that it hardly ever occurs outside of combat involving people who are already Kage-level.  Consider how the Konoha platoons hit a brick wall trying to deal with the giant snakes summoned outside of the walls of the village and the multitude of Shinobi Alliance members that couldn't do anything about the Mizukage's clam that doesn't even come from a legendary mountain/forest/cave. It's a power level issue, not just a specific type-matchup issue.



> If we multiple Kakashi by three, he's winning against the Boss-Summons. Three Kakashi's are too many targets for the Boss-Summon and Jiriaya/Tsunade/Orochimaru to avoid. They will make their way up the Boss Summon and attack the summoner.



No he isn't.

The boss summons don't need to avoid him because he doesn't hit hard enough to hurt them. His Suitons could effectively just be walked through to step on Kakashi, his dogs get sat on, Raikiri is too concentrated to be threatening- it'd feel like getting a paper cut, so multiplying him by three would still leave them a mere annoyance, not a threat- we never saw Kakashi resort to Raiton flowing his weapons in Part 1, so if he even could do it he most likely _wouldn't_ do it, and targeting their eyes is easier said than done because it will take time to for the projectile to travel all the way up there and I'm sure the summons have had to handle kunai being thrown at them at some point in their careers as war veterans (before it reaches them they could just lean their heads out of the way, Gamabunta could just jump, Katsuyu could tank it anyway).

I wouldn't put any stock into Kakashi simply scaling the summons and attacking the Sannin themselves, specially not when it's been made a point that nobody had been able to ride on Gamabunta's head since the Fourth Hokage himself. Gamabunta could rodeo them off or slap them back to the ground 100 meters below with his tongue lashing out of nowhere (if the tongue doesn't work as to slap them off it will at least grab their attention long enough for Jiraiya to entangle them with the wide-reaching Ranjishigami), Katsuyu could just grab them with her ability to meld before they ever made it all the way up to Tsunade and it only takes a second to put them each into a coma with a Shosen overdose, Manda could just either swing his tail or roll over and squish him. Unless you think he's just going to jump straight to their faces, which is a terrible idea that's going to get him blasted across the field by liquid water bullets, melted with acid slime, or pounded back to the ground with a tail.



> If the extent of Shizune's display is that she was able to fight Kabuto for a bit, after he had just fought a Legendary Sannin, I really don't see what's suppose to impress me about that.



You misunderstood the point then.

Shizune wasn't brought up to impress you, she was brought up to show that she wasn't the problem she had been painted as before, which could be attributed to Kabuto operating beyond his typical level that people are liable to consider when evaluating.

Taking the Hyōrōgan must have enhanced Kabuto beyond his typical evaluated strength because if that's the strength that everybody had been considering they wouldn't have treated Shizune as something Kabuto needed to be particularly wary of, and in that case, it's extremely likely that Kabuto _even without_ the Hyōrōgan is on par with Kakashi.



> No all of these attributes are what made Kabuto roughly equivalent to Kakashi. Kabuto's medical skills which allowed him to create Hyōrōgan and Zōketsugan as well as Kabuto's intelligence and knowledge that allowed him to form a cunning strategy to exhaust Tsunade.



I'm talking about perceptions in-Narutoverse. People consider scrolls, puppets, swords, dogs, etc. to be part of a ninja's strength when use is integral to or typical of their fighting style. They don't account for them in evaluations if they're hardly used because the ninja in question don't always have them on them- again, people think of weapons scrolls when they think of TenTen because that's central to her fighting style, you're almost never going to catch her without them, but when people think about Sakura, Tsunade, and Shizune they don't think about sleep bombs or any kind of pills despite their ability to prepare them, because they typically wouldn't use them/consistently have them available. Kabuto has never used the Hyōrōgan outside of the fight with Tsunade, which he went into with a specific plan involving its use (Oro- "It might be time to use 'it'."), suggesting that it's utilization is an _a_typical event in that same way. Jiraiya and Kakashi (who everybody just seems to conveniently forget when trying to argue this point) wouldn't have considered it in _their_ evaluations, and yet they both came to the same conclusion as Orochimaru that Kabuto ~ Kakashi.

Intelligence and knowledge are what made him realize such a strategy was going to be necessary against Tsunade despite her handicaps and his ability to negate her trademark strength. There is no databook statistic for prep, and intelligence doesn't encompass ninja tools. If Kabuto can only stand against Kakashi with prior intel and preparation, then he's not going to be considered as being as strong as Kakashi. It'd be like Orochimaru and Itachi in spite of the brokenness that is Edo Tensei- it's Orochimaru's talent and intelligence that allows him to perform that Jutsu, but it' has to be prepared each time it's going to be used, Itachi's only stronger because Orochimaru most frequently wouldn't have that Jutsu prepared if they were to run into each other on any given day. Featwise I think Kabuto's still up there without the pills, though.



> He was talking about slicing Tsunade with his Kunai.



He's talking about abusing her phobia, as blood actually being visible is the only difference pulling out that Kunai instead of continuing with the Scalpels could have possibly made, and he specifically brought up her fear of blood for her to hear.

Splattering it until the brink of death was just part of the scare tactic- had he actually meant it he would have just cut Tsunade instead of himself after she charged him again, instead of leaving himself practically unable to use one arm while the other opponents were still present.



> So you think your more pre-disposed to look at a rumor with scrutiny than a 54 Year Old Legendary Ninja whose been involved in espionage for decades, and has traveled across the world on a sage like journey.



Probably.

You keep treating "54 year old legendary ninja whose been involved in espionage for decades" like it's some great thing. Half of it is irrelevant, and apparently none of it has managed to make Jiraiya wise and knowledgeable enough to merit a 5 in his intelligence/knowledge statistic.



> Allow me to rephrase, than. What you need to do is prove Jiraiya believed the rumor, because otherwise if he did not believe it the point that him going to fight Pain, contradicts the Hanzo statement is moot.



Pain living in the tallest tower in Amegakure is as much of a rumor as him killing Hanzō, Jiraiya operated under that assumption anyway, so the fact that it's a rumor doesn't by itself prove serious disbelief on his part. He also also asked about Pain's abilities following the reveal; why would he try to ascertain how it happened if he didn't believe it happened (it wasn't like he was asking the questions sarcastically)?

I'm not making the point that Jiraiya "contradicts" the Hanzō statement, I'm pointing towards Jiraiya's actions (as well as the databook, the only a Sannin can beat a Sannin adage, etc.) following as evidencing that he simply didn't mean _"shinjiraren"/"unbelievable"_ any more literally than when someone says it after eating something delicious or making a remark about how someone is behaving. If I came across a dime for every time "shinjirarenai"/"unbelievable" was used when something unexpected happened even if it was in plain sight I could buy a _planet_. It is used as _slang_, and Jiraiya is not giving some presentation to keep his job as the CEO of some fancy company, he's just talking to someone he picked up off the street, so there's no reason for me to doubt that it's used as slang here, too, unless _you_ demonstrate the opposite which you have not done thus far.

I'm going to assume it's just another one of the many exaggerated claims in the manga until that point.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 20, 2015)

Turrin said:


> This is explained by Jiraiya simply not believing the rumor was necessarily true.



Turrin, bro, *what* are you doing? That has _nothing_ to do with what I said. You need to start paying attention before you respond. I'm not talking even about the Hanzō thing in regards to this particular point, keep up with me now, I'm just talking about what Jiraiya would have thought about the Akatsuki leader _regardless_.

The fact that Jiraiya could be _so lax_ despite knowing that Orochimaru was a former member of Akatsuki suggests that he still didn't believe the leader of Akatsuki was more, or even _as_ powerful as his contemporary.

Just look at how the prospect of facing Orochimaru makes Jiraiya behave in Part 1- when Ebisu asked about the reason for his return to the village he made it a point that he _wasn't_ there to fight Orochimaru because he didn't want to stick his neck into trouble, and in the Tsunade search arc he stressed how bad it was that Orochimaru might get his arms back, in addition to turning to both of the available medical specialists for alleviating his own handicap before having to face armless Orochimaru (he even says "Argh! I've got no choice..." before their mutually handicapped fight begins). That is nothing like going fishing for the Akatsuki leader saying "I'll be facing a _slightly_ tough opponent and I shouldn't be too long" without even bothering to enter his heightened form.

I mean sure, Jiraiya could think that the leader _could_ be as strong as Orochimaru (or any other ninja), but in the ninja world he _could_ come across anyone like that. It's shocking because considering just how powerful a Sannin is in all likelihood he never _would_ be coming across someone that strong. Shock comes from something being significantly different from your _expectations_, _not_ explored logical possibilities _fullstop_. So you're not about to unnecessarily force this burden of somehow needing to prove with absolute certainty that Jiraiya didn't consider it so much as a logical possibility onto me, I bear no such thing.



> Nearly every Major Kage he knew in his life time. I find it suspect tht he wouldn't have been briefed on Kakuzu and Sasori's capabilities. Itachi. Himself and Tsunade. Debatably Shisui. Debatably Sasuke.



Oh dear.

*1.)* Nearly every major Kage-

No.

Orochimaru killed the Fourth Kazekage Rasa as well as the Third Hokage Hiruzen who was reputed to be the strongest Kage of the Five. Granted, Hiruzen didn't realize just how much his old age had affected him until _after_ he began fighting Orochimaru (the Anbu didn't seem to have done that yet either), but he had admitted to not being able to stand against him as well as sent everyone on a search for Jiraiya _before_ that point. Orochimaru was also able to grow bored during his fight with Hiruzen while even the Third Raikage thought he would have enjoyed fighting the weaker Rasa and the other Edo Tensei'd Kages, so he's a cut above most Kages.

*2.)* Kakuzu and Sasori-

I don't see why Jiraiya would be briefed on Sasori and Kakuzu's capabilities since he's not the one getting mission reports tbh (maybe he heard what happened to the Kazekage that just went missing all those years ago, but besides that?), I don't really think it matters that much if he was either way, though.

I don't see any indications in the manga that Kakuzu is considered to be any stronger than someone like Kisame by any of the residents of the Narutoverse themselves. Sasori might be considered somewhat stronger than Kisame (I think somewhere Kisame said he thought Deidara was one of Akatsuki's more formidable members (don't know what chapter that is), and Sasori should be slightly stronger than Deidara considering Deidara's own admission that he was probably superior, so he's up there, at least?), but it doesn't follow from that that he'd be considered to be on Orochimaru's level, specially not when Orochimaru was intending to kill him at the Tenchi Bridge.

*3.)* Itachi-

Not at all likely, given that Kakashi knew as much about Itachi as Jiraiya did and yet still figured that it was his presence that simply kept Akatsuki from acting to capture Naruto over the timeskip.

*4.)* Jiraiya himself and Tsunade-

Sure. I already said this.

*5.)* Shisui-

Was suspected to have been killed by Itachi before he even awakened the Mangekyō, by ninja that knew both of them, so?*no*.

*6.)* Sasuke-

Not necessarily. Jiraiya was researching Orochimaru's Fushi Tensei technique. He knew that he was forced to switch bodies before Sasuke reached him in Part 1, so he could have attributed the victory to Orochimaru being weakened at the time.



> What I was saying was, Jiraiya accepted that there was someone strong enough to kill Orochimaru, when the information was from a reliable source. He didn't act in disbelief of it.



What doesn't make sense to me is how you keep managing to quote me without seeming to have read what it is you're quoting before responding.

As I said:

*1.)* We don't see Jiraiya's reaction to the news that Orochimaru was killed- he _could have_ found it shocking and we just didn't get to see it because we weren't shown the scene where he first learned about it.

*2.)* Jiraiya may have accounted for Orochimaru being weakened at the time due to his research of Fushi Tensei and figured that Sasuke killing him then doesn't mean he could have killed him had he been at full power. That is, after all, the only reason Sasuke beat him according even to Sasuke himself.

Your implication that in supposed contrast to this Jiraiya went and "acted in disbelief" of Pain killing Hanzō is assuming what is to be proved as a premise for your argument, when I'm saying that Jiraiya's actions can just as easily be explained by him simply having exaggerated his sentiments earlier and in actuality not regarding Hanzō as being on par with himself.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 20, 2015)

> *Originally Posted by Turrin*  View Post
> I'm going to try and cut to the heart of the discussion here



I laughed.


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## Thunder (Apr 20, 2015)

Turrin vs. FlamingRain is shaping into a mini Great Debate. All the newcomers viewing this thread must feel like those ANBU when Orochimaru and Hiruzen fought.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 20, 2015)

This shit's still going on?



 I can't even keep up with the debate.


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## Jad (Apr 20, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Turrin vs. FlamingRain is shaping into a mini Great Debate. All the newcomers viewing this thread must feel like those ANBU when Orochimaru and Hiruzen fought.



Or just already left the building


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> He didn't need to. "Battle" in relation to Tsunade is effectively Tsunade's battle. It can't reflect on and be attributed to her otherwise. That's why you didn't have any villagers saying "Naruto and Hinata saved the village", despite her attempt at interference being the trigger for the Kn6 mode that freed Naruto from being pinned to the ground and had the last path of Pain on the ropes as he was chased out of the village, only "Naruto saved the village".


I'm sorry man but this makes no grammatical sense whatsoever. If I say someone is the best in battle, that doesn't mean it's exclusively their battle; the battles could involve thousands of individuals. but that individual simply stood out for his/her contributions to those battles being greater than anyone else. 



> That wouldn't make any sense. I know Jutsu don't make up all of a shinobi's power, but if Hanzō were more powerful than she that would entail that's he's able to stand shoulder to shoulder with her Jutsu, even if the only reason he's able to do that is because of factors in addition to his own Jutsu. If that were the case then Jiraiya would have said "no person's Jutsu" instead of "no person"- the fact that he was using "no person" instead implies that there are none able to make up for trailing behind her Jutsu with the other aspects of combat.


I'm sorry, but this makes no grammatical sense ether. If I say no one can stand shoulder to should with Killer-B in Battle-Kenjutsu, that doesn't mean everyone would loose to Killer-B, it just means I consider Killer-B is thee best at Kenjutsu in battle.



> If someone's fighting style is defensive pressure then so be it, but it's still fighting. Defensive tactics are in a different category than auxiliary ones. Hari Jizō is a defensive technique, but it's still a direct fighting technique. Jiraiya has used his toads as shields from sword swings, Sasuke has used snakes as shields from bombs- nothing about that distances them from direct fighting.


Of course it's fighting, but it's support oriented fighting. Again the problem w/ your entire logic is that your forcing best in battle to mean "thee-strongest-shinobi", which it does not have to. The best in battle can be due to multiple different factors.

Fuck I just found this from another major translator NJT about the line:

chap: 158

その戦闘・医療術には未だ肩を並べるものはいない
her skills in battle and medical treatmeant can't even be compared
*Note, This is what he says, but I'm quite sure he's saying that she's the best in battle, but more that she's well balanced in both, and in comparison to that, no one exists.

NJT says right there, that it's more about her being well balanced in both battle and medical arts, that makes it so no one can compare to her, not that she's the strongest-shinobi. 

And please do not use NJT's typo of forgetting the word "not" in "i'm quite sure he's "not" saying that..." to try and argue against this, as I'd find that extremely bias and ridiculous, considering that it is very clear NJT just made a typo there,  as she goes on to say "but more that", which indicates it's not that she's the best in battle, "but more that" she's more balanced. 



> Oh, now it's no longer stamina but "ougi and stamina",


Umm...no it just that before I was talking about why he couldn't hang with a Sannin to a "certain-extent" back in Part I, here were talking about why he is not Sannin "level". What was preventing him from putting up a decent fight with a Sannin was stamina, what's preventing him from being Sannin  "level" was stamina and a lack of a solid ougi. 



> although that calls into question the point of you even bringing up his "1000 Jutsus" hype, because according to this they must have all been fodder.


Are you saying any Jutsu that is not an Ougi, like Sennin Modo, Yamata no Orochi, Sousou Saisei, and Edo-Tensei is fodder? If not than this is a straw-man.



> Raikiri is a powerful Ougi Jutsu, though (if Raikiri's still not powerful enough that just goes to show how big the gap that Kakashi's trying to bridge is), to this day only his Mangekyō is a more dangerous technique of his, and Kakashi's stamina increase all the way up to databook 3 didn't even amount to half a tier greater than what it was in databook 1, so I'm not buying that as his excuse for one second.


Are you saying Rarikiri is an Ougi on par with Sennin Modo, Yamata no Orochi, Sousou Saisei, and Edo-Tensei? If not than this isn't germane to my point.



> Kakashi was going to fight Orochimaru and then got put in his place by Orochimaru's killing intent, not by a graph that charted the amount of Chakra Orochimaru had in the tank- it had nothing at all to do with a realization that he lacked the stamina to compete, he just realized that he was completely outclassed.


He was put in his place as weaker than Orochimaru. Okay now why was he weaker, there must be a reason. I'm saying that reason was stamina and a lack of an Ougi on par with the Sannin's. 



> The only times we've seen Raiton-Doton interactions in the manga the Raiton has always simply pierced through the Doton, it has never caused the Doton to de-activate


Cough....Kibaku-Nendo....Cough



> Honestly, even gratuitously assuming that for some strange reason unbeknownst to us that a Raiton would ever have the effect of de-activation, every single one of Kakashi's Raitons (though he only ever showed Chidori/Raikiri in Part 1) are all too small to deal with something as large as Yomi Numa. So let's say he actually manages to get a platform beneath his feet, he's still going to be surrounded by the swamp and even the tiny patch of land he managed to return to normal will just be sucked into the rest of the very deep swamp.


Kakashi only needs to stop himself from sinking, from there he can Shunshin out of the Swamp. I'm not saying the Swamp isn't troublesome for Kakashi, but the idea of him being one-shotted by it, is not something I subscribe to.



> Jiraiya doesn't need to jump above him to use Yatai Kuzushi. The summon doesn't have to appear beneath the summoner, they can have it appear in front of them as Tsunade demonstrated (otherwise Katsuyu would have just landed on top of the Hokage Mansion and crushed it).


The only way we've ever seen the technique used is by Naruto, Jiriaya, and Minato getting above the enemy and than summoning a boss-toad. So no I do not find it likely for it to be used any other way.



> Kage Bunshin feinting still requires the original to actually get out of the way of the attack, so no I don't expect that kind of thing to work against something like a giant 100 meter toad being dropped on Kakashi with enough force to destroy the ground beneath it (i.e.- retreating underground isn't resulting in safety either).


The way Kakashi uses KB feint is for the original to hide underground, so likely the original will be out of the way of the attack.



> A 3.5 is what Hidan had, blah-blah


Kabuto with a 3.5 in speed and 3.5 in Taijutsu, evaded her to the point of exhaustion. And even if you want to claim she was rusty, there is a massive gulf between Kabuto and Kakashi, considering Kakashi's 4.5 in speed and 4.5 in Taijutsu + Sharingan on top of it. 

As for Hidan, Kakashi had it rough against him because his reach was extend with his scythe and he had to avoid even a single scratch, while also keeping an eye on Kakuzu. As for Shizune, her not being in the right state of mind when pitted against the person she loved and respected is more than understandable, and Shizune isn't anywhere near Kakashi anyway. Orochimaru was heavily weakened from part of his soul being ripped out and body failure, yet he still avoided Tsunade to the point of exhaustion alongside Kabuto, so her eventually landing a blow on him after a long battle, doesn't help your case at all.



> The Sharingan really isn't a problem either unless Kakashi focuses exclusively on evading (and even it can't predict the effects produced by Tsunade deciding to manipulate the terrain) , as it still doesn't grant him the ability to perform physical impossibilities like attack and retreat simultaneously. If he ever advances in order to attack himself Tsunade can take advantage of his close-proximity and take him down while he's within her reach, because, again, he can't block her strength.


Sasuke was able to evade Ei's elbow and at the same time land his own attack, and he has the same speed as stat as Kakashi and same Sharingan. If Sasuke can do that against Ei, there is absolutely no reason to believe Kakashi can't do so against Tsunade.



> Ranshinshō also allows Tsunade to incapacitate Raiton: Kage Bunshins without making them explode


I'm sorry, but you made this up.



> His Part 1 ranged game consists of Suitons and sending his dogs after people. His dogs will get splattered all over the ground and his Suiton projectiles can be either evaded or knocked aside.


His ranged likely consists of hundreds of Jutsu, considering his 1K. But I agree that Kakashi is more a Mid/Short-Range fighter, but so is Tsunade, so I doubt we would see a ranged battle.



> Except snakes can burrow underground, too, and they're better at digging than people


When have those small snakes proven they are better at digging under ground than a magical Ninja using a mystical art? 



> The main threat of the Kusanagi would be Orochimaru suddenly spitting it out if Kakashi gets close a


Fuck even Sai didn't get done in by that, and your expect Kakashi to be, come on man.



> nd/or telekinetically manipulating it to stab him through the back. It's the catching him off guard that's most dangerous


This can be dangerous any feint style blindside attack is. But is it anymore dangerous than Orochimaru getting blindside by a KB-Feint or feinted by Sharingan-Genjutsu, no. Both are capable of these tricky maneuvers



> Kakashi's Raikiri might be able to block a slash (it most definitely will not cut it in half when slamming it with adamantine-form Enma couldn't do jack to it but hurt Enma himself), but he could only do that if he knew that he needed to in time, and if he doesn't even see it coming he won'


I don't see what blocking a blunt staff, has to do with blocking Rarikiri. Ce-Gaara could likely block Enam strikes with his ultimate-defense, but he couldn't block Chidori. Chidori and Rarikiri are different than blunt strikes.


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2015)

> Kakashi went straight to Raikiri as soon as he saw Orochimaru in Part 1, Orochi could just let himself get stabbed and then spit a sword in Kakashi's face.


And than Kakashi evades sword spit, which has zero notable feats and failed to kill Sai.



> The other techniques emerge pretty quickly (1) (2) and can have a pretty sizable range (3) (4), if Kakashi's near Orochimaru or trying to approach him he's going to have issues, and just evading isn't going to get him anywhere.


Dude even Yamato casually Kwarimi'd out of one of Orochimaru's best displays of Hidden Snake Hands, and he's not as fast as Kakashi. So expecting Kakashi to loose to this is just silly imo.



> Kakashi was going to try and take off GM's head, I think he can hurt a boss summon (besides Katsuyu) sufficiently enough with the Mangekyō.


He was going to take off GM's head at a huge cost to his stamina and eye-sight. He does that to a Boss-Summon and he kills it, but at such a high cost that it's impractical when Tsunade, Jiraiya, and Orochimaru can summon multiple boss-summons.



> Look at the other ninja at or nearing


Shizune, Asuma, and Kurunai are not on P1-Kakashi's "level". P1-Kakashi is someone who Gai considered his rival, was legendary as a the Copy Ninja, called the number one technician in the leaf village, someone Itachi considered strong enough to give Kisame problems, and so on. It would be more apt to compare Kakashi to Jonin, like Chouza, Shikaku, Inoichi, Healthy Kimi, Yamato, Haishi, etc... but even than he and Gai stand out even more than these guys.

And I disagree with your premise anyway. Shizune can take down a boss-summon w/ Poison, Amakichi with Multi-Size, Gaiw/ Gates, Inoichi with Shintenshin, Fu with Shintenshin, Kimi w/ Swarbi no Mai, Kiba w/ cerberous, SPII-Sakura w/ Okasho, and so on. May Jonin-Class Shinobi have the means to defeat a boss-summon, more efficiently than Kakashi can. The issue for most of them would be beating a Boss-Summon and a Sannin at the same time, which they lack the capability to do, but this was never about Part I-Kakashi beating a Sannin 1v1, it was about Three Part I Kakashi's "level" Ninja being able to push a Sannin to Mid/High Diff.



> The boss summons don't need to avoid him


I wasn't talking about the Boss-Summons avoiding him, I was saying the boss-summons aren't going to be able to keep track off 3 Kakashi's at once, which would enable them to avoid the Boss-Summon and go for the summoner. 



> I wouldn't put any stock into Kakashi simply scaling the summons and attacking the Sannin themselves, specially not when it's been made a point that nobody had been able to ride on Gamabunta's head since the Fourth Hokage himself. Gamabunta could rodeo them off or slap them back to the ground 100 meters below with his tongue lashing out of nowhere (if the tongue doesn't work as to slap them off it will at least grab their attention long enough for Jiraiya to entangle them with the wide-reaching Ranjishigami), Katsuyu could just grab them with her ability to meld before they ever made it all the way up to Tsunade and it only takes a second to put them each into a coma with a Shosen overdose, Manda could just either swing his tail or roll over and squish him.


None of them are going bucking bronco enough to cause enough problems for 3 Kakashi's scaling them, that they wouldn't also hurt their summoner. 

The only viable counter you have proposed her is Katsuya melding, which would make Katsuya difficult to run up, but 3 Kakashi's could also use percision ranged attacks to knock Tsunade off Katsuya w/ Suitons or Raitons. Heck one Kakashi could use Sharingan Genjutsu on Katsuya to slow Katsuya down, while the other 2 Kakashi's focus on knocking Tsunade off or using this chance to run up Katsuya. There are still many options open to the 3 Kakashi's.



> Shizune wasn't brought up to impress you, she was brought up to show that she wasn't the problem she had been painted as before, which could be attributed to Kabuto operating beyond his typical level that people are liable to consider when evaluating.


What problem was she painted to be before? Please show me the panel your referring to, because I really don't see the implications your talking about.



> Taking the Hyōrōgan must have enhanced Kabuto beyond his typical evaluated strength because if that's the strength that everybody had been considering they wouldn't have treated Shizune as something Kabuto needed to be particularly wary of, and in that case, it's extremely likely that Kabuto even without the Hyōrōgan is on par with Kakashi.


Even after Kabuto had taken Hyōrōgan, the manga still compares him to Kakashi "level"
Link removed



> I'm talking about perceptions in-Narutoverse. People consider scrolls, puppets, swords, dogs, etc. to be part of a ninja's strength when use is integral to or typical of their fighting style


Okay please prove Kabuto doesn't always have pills on him.



> ntelligence and knowledge are what made him realize such a strategy was going to be necessary against Tsunade despite her handicaps and his ability to negate her trademark strength. There is no databook statistic for prep, and intelligence doesn't encompass ninja tools. If Kabuto can only stand against Kakashi with prior intel and preparation, then he's not going to be considered as being as strong as Kakashi.


Yet the manga still blatantly compared him to Kakashi in strength even with said preparation.



> It'd be like Orochimaru and Itachi in spite of the brokenness that is Edo Tensei- it's Orochimaru's talent and intelligence that allows him to perform that Jutsu, but it' has to be prepared each time it's going to be used, Itachi's only stronger because Orochimaru most frequently wouldn't have that Jutsu prepared if they were to run into each other on any given day. Featwise I think Kabuto's still up there without the pills, though.


Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru, because Orochimaru's Tensei were not as strong back in Part I, that's why. It has nothing to do with preparation. If Orochimaru could have beaten Itachi with prep he would have done so.



> He's talking about abusing her phobia, as blood actually being visible is the only difference pulling out that Kunai instead of continuing with the Scalpels could have possibly made, and he specifically brought up her fear of blood for her to hear.
> 
> Splattering it until the brink of death was just part of the scare tactic-


Sigh... yes it was a reference to her blood phobia, but not about exploiting that phobia, it was about him mocking Tsunade, saying she's going to see blood when he kills her with his Kunai. That entire scene was with Kabuto having the advantage. He chargers her and than Jiraiya and company than come to her rescue:
Link removed
Link removed

Fuck Kabuto wasn't even fighting with killer intent and he was still winning:

From NJT:

Kabuto:
アナタにはまだ死なれたら困りますからね・・・
Because we still need you alive

首は狙いませんよ
I didn't aim for the kill

Tsunade even acknowledge how tremendously skilled Kabuto was:


術のセンスと切れ味は
His sense and mastery of his jutsu (well it actually says his sense and sharpness of his jutsu... but I felt mastery would be better  )

私の全盛期すら超える
would surpass me even at my prime. 

Literally everything about that interaction indicates Kabuto is difficult Shinobi for Tsunade to handle.



> he would have just cut Tsunade instead of himself after she charged him again, instead of leaving himself practically unable to use one arm while the other opponents were still present


He couldn't cut Tsunade again, because his chance passed. He had an opening when Tsunade was still suffering form the damage from chakra scalpels and caught off guard by how quickly he recovered from Rajinsho, but that wouldn't work here, plus Jiriaya would have stepped in if he attacked Tsunade, so being faced w/ two sannin and no longer having that opening he decided to end the fight with Tsunade's blood phobia so he could focus on Jiraiya.



> You keep treating "54 year old legendary ninja whose been involved in espionage for decades" like it's some great thing. Half of it is irrelevant, and apparently none of it has managed to make Jiraiya wise and knowledgeable enough to merit a 5 in his intelligence/knowledge statistic.


The dude has fucking 4.5, which is .5 off from roof tier. Are you really going to sit here and tell me that someone needs to be roof tier intelligent, to not simply take a rumor at face value. I'm sorry, but that is utterly absurd.

And all of the things I listed are relevant.

Jiraiya having the experience and maturity of being a 54 Year-Old, is likely to be wise enough to not take a rumor at face value, even more so having traveled the world making him likely to be exposed to various rumors, many of which probably were not true. Him being involved in espionage and a master ninja, means he is involved in a world of secrets and lies, and he's one of the best, again another compelling reason to assume he wouldn't take rumors at face value. And yes even his 4.5 in intelligence helps support this.

I'm sorry, but if your asking me to believe despite all this Jiraiya still certainly believed the rumor whole heartedly, that's not a strong or persuasive argument.


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2015)

> Pain living in the tallest tower in Amegakure is as much of a rumor as him killing Hanzō, Jiraiya operated under that assumption anyway, so the fact that it's a rumor doesn't by itself prove serious disbelief on his part. He also also asked about Pain's abilities following the reveal; why would he try to ascertain how it happened if he didn't believe it happened (it wasn't like he was asking the questions sarcastically)?


First off it's a less outlandish rumor and second off there is a difference between checking out a rumor and believing one whole heartedly from the jump.



> I'm not making the point that Jiraiya "contradicts" the Hanzō statement, I'm pointing towards Jiraiya's actions (as well as the databook, the only a Sannin can beat a Sannin adage, etc.) following as evidencing that he simply didn't mean "shinjiraren"/"unbelievable" any more literally than when someone says it after eating something delicious or making a remark about how someone is behaving. If I came across a dime for every time "shinjirarenai"/"unbelievable" was used when something unexpected happened even if it was in plain sight I could buy a planet. It is used as slang, and Jiraiya is not giving some presentation to keep his job as the CEO of some fancy company, he's just talking to someone he picked up off the street, so there's no reason for me to doubt that it's used as slang here, too, unless you demonstrate the opposite which you have not done thus far.


I'm sorry, but this is such an inherent misrepresentation of what was said that I can't let it go. 

Amegakuru Shinobi does not simply say his piece and Jiraiya simply say unbelievable. 

Amegakuru Shinobi says  Pain beat Hanzo, and than Jiraiya's initial reaction is "Shinjiraren", but he doesn't stop there, he builds on it saying Pain "とやら", which _"indicates uncertainty or second hand nature of information quoted"_, hence me translating it as "You must be mistaken". Than he further builds on it thinking back to Hanzo's strength and once again repeats "Shinjiraren". 

So it's not just an initial reaction of "unbelievable", it's a consistant thought process throughout the entire discussion w/ the amegakuru shinobi, that Jiriaya does not trust the amegakuru shinobi's information. In-fact that is directly stated via "とやら":




> The fact that Jiraiya could be so lax despite knowing that Orochimaru was a former member of Akatsuki suggests that he still didn't believe the leader of Akatsuki was more, or even as powerful as his contemporary.


I just don't see Jiraiya as being lax tho. Him and Tsunade specifically discuss the strength of Akatsuki-Leader, and how Jiraiya could loose his life. Jiriaya doesn't even want Tsunade to come join him, because he fears for her life. Jiraiya went to extremes to try and move through Amegakuru undetected and he even went out of his way to send the Toad-Scroll off to make sure it got away before anything bad went down. None of this makes me feel as if Jiriaya was so lax about the situation, in-fact it's the exact opposite, Jiriaya was taking precautions and knew just how dangerous his situation was.

Your argument extends about as far as Jiriaya putting on a brave face for his friends and him not using Sennin Modo before the fight, which is nothing more than plot as to avoid an anti-climatic reveal. Fuck Ninja don't use their best techs first all the time even when knowing they are going up against extremely strong enemies that could kill them. It's a narrative device Kishi employs so as to save those reveals for more climatic moments in the battle.

So nether of those things, make me believe Jiraiya was so-lax about his situation, when we have many better indicators that this was not the case, like at all.

-----


> So you're not about to unnecessarily force this burden of somehow needing to prove with absolute certainty that Jiraiya didn't consider it so much as a logical possibility onto me, I bear no such thing.


The reason the burden of proof is on you, is because thee only way Jiriaya carried himself that is relevant to this discussion is Jiraiya's belief that he had a chance to beat Akatsuki-Leader. Because if he thought he had a chance and truly believed the rumor that Akatsuki-Leader beat Hanzo, than that would be one feather in your arguments metaphorical cap for Sannin > Prime-Hanzo. However that argument relies on your proving w/o a shadow of a doubt that Jiraiya whole heartedly believed the rumor that Akatsuki-Leader beat Pain. Otherwise this point is moot and outside of this point you have nothing as far as Jiraiya's actions go.



> Orochimaru killed the Fourth Kazekage Rasa as well as the Third Hokage Hiruzen who was reputed to be the strongest Kage of the Five. Granted, Hiruzen didn't realize just how much his old age had affected him until after he began fighting Orochimaru (the Anbu didn't seem to have done that yet either), but he had admitted to not being able to stand against him as well as sent everyone on a search for Jiraiya before that point.


Let's be real here, given how Yondaime-Kazekage was portrayed, most Kages are stronger than him and he is one of the weakest Kages we've seen in the manga. Defeating Old-Hiruzen is a much better feat, but again being real, Old-Hiruzen is not way above most Kages. Even if we go by his Part I hype of being the strongest Gokage, than we should go by the Part I hype that the Fan-book calls him equivalent to Orochimaru

Fanbook about Orochimaru vs Hiruzen, _"The two shinobi were equally matched and the battle seemed endless"_

So Orochimaru and Old-Hiruzen are roughly equal. Even if I than go by the hype that Old-Hiruzen is stronger than the Gokage that were around back then, I'd certainly place Ei and Onoki [even pre-stone will] around Old-Hiruzen in strength, and only slightly weaker. So there's 2 Kages right there that are close to Orochimaru. Than going back in time to other Kages. Minato, Tobirama, Sandaime-Raikage and Yondaime-Mizukage, should also all be relatively close. So that's 6 individuals, and that's assuming all the other Kages we don't know enough about were inferior and that Jiraiya didn't know much about Troll and Mu.



> I don't see why Jiraiya would be briefed on Sasori and Kakuzu's capabilities since he's not the one getting mission reports tbh (maybe he heard what happened to the Kazekage that just went missing all those years ago, but besides that…), I don't really think it matters that much if he was either way, though.


You don't see why Jiriaya and Tsunade/Kakashi would share intel about Akatsuki or about the person Jiriaya's apprentice just went up against. Come on bruv.



> I don't see any indications in the manga that Kakuzu is considered to be any stronger than someone like Kisame by any of the residents of the Narutoverse themselves. Sasori might be considered somewhat stronger than Kisame (I think somewhere Kisame said he thought Deidara was one of Akatsuki's more formidable members (don't know what chapter that is), and Sasori should be slightly stronger than Deidara considering Deidara's own admission that he was probably superior, so he's up there, at least…), but it doesn't follow from that that he'd be considered to be on Orochimaru's level, specially not when Orochimaru was intending to kill him at the Tenchi Bridge.


Kakuzu is perhaps more debatable, but Sasori defeated a stronger Kazekage than Orochimaru even before getting that Kazekage's power himself, and solo'd a fricking country, and was stronger than Deidara. I see no reason to believe Sasori is not at least close to Orochimaru.

Orochimaru was planning to kill him at the bridge with the help of Kabuto and in an ambush. Not to mention Orochimaru being the most arrogant character ever when it came to overestimating himself



> Not at all likely, given that Kakashi knew as much about Itachi as Jiraiya did and yet still figured that it was his presence that simply kept Akatsuki from acting to capture Naruto over the timeskip.


I don't think Kakashi was talking purely about Jiriaya being stronger than every Akatsuki member, I think he meant that the risk of going up against Jiriaya kept Akatsuki away. If Itachi was as strong as a Sannin, it would still be risky for him to fight someone of equal strength. Itachi even comments on this to Kisame in the manga. So I see nothing wrong with Kakashi believe Jiraiya acted as deterrent while also believing Itachi could be close to a Sannin in strength.



> Was suspected to have been killed by Itachi before he even awakened the Mangekyō, by ninja that knew both of them, so…no.


And suddenly this matters to strength why? There are things like poison and back-stabbing you know.



> Not necessarily. Jiraiya was researching Orochimaru's Fushi Tensei technique. He knew that he was forced to switch bodies before Sasuke reached him in Part 1, so he could have attributed the victory to Orochimaru being weakened at the time.


Jiriaya nor Tsunade ever make this excuse for Orochimaru, so I very much doubt they were aware of this. But sure if you want to say Sasuke is a maybe, than fine, fuck i'll even give you Itachi and Shisui as maybe as well.

We still have: Tsunade, Ei, Onoki, Jiriaya-himself, Sasori, Sandaime-Raikage, Minato, Tobirama, Yondaime-Mizukage. 

Than we have a whole slew of maybes, if we want to do that category:

Shisui, Itachi, Sasuke, Killer-B, Other-Kages, Mu, Troll, etc...



> Not necessarily. Jiraiya was researching Orochimaru's Fushi Tensei technique. He knew that he was forced to switch bodies before Sasuke reached him in Part 1, so he could have attributed the victory to Orochimaru being weakened at the time.


No I'm saying that the situation with Orochimaru vs Hanzo, contrast in the sense of a reliable source vs an non-reliable one. 

Jiraiya says Sasuke defeated Orochimaru, everyone is shocked, but he tells them it's the truth because it comes from a reliable source. This contrasts the Hanzo situation where the information does not come from reliable source. This indicates Jiriaya is aware of the contrast between reliable sources and potentially unreliable sources. And his reactions differ depending on the quality of that source.

Yes we didn't see Jiriaya's initial reaction, but in Hanzo's case we also don't just see his initial reaction. We see his second, third, and forth reactions, after continuing to question the amegakuru fodder, and they are always of disbelief and mistrust, vs in the Orochimaru case he trust the information because he knows the source is reliable.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 21, 2015)

Talking about Sai not getting done in by the Kusanagi snipe as if Orochimaru was trying to do him in instead of teaching him manners for trying to speak with a clone. What a laugh.

You _Kuchiyose: Nonsensical Wall of Text no Jutsu_ users are hard to kill, though.

Look Turrin, I don't concede any of those points but we're _probably_ done, because among other things we're just going to keep disagreeing here. I would gladly pick apart every bit of whatever the mess you think that is that you just typed, but I've lost interest in continuing to reply exhaustively because after just reading through it I simply can't shake the feeling that you're playing intentionally stupid (and I really, really, strongly suggest that you sit down and think a little for once before implying somebody is biased after that hissy fit you threw when the implication was directed at you). I mean what is this crap about Shizune taking down something as large as a boss summon with the tiny amount of poison she's shown to produce, or this bs about Hiruzen being equivalent to Orochimaru when Hiruzen himself admitted inferiority, it's stated during the fight that he was being toyed with, and the second databook says the fight amounted to a boring game for Orochimaru? 

We saw a "prime" Hanzō acknowledge that he was at considerable risk facing a young Mifune in the past and we have Mifune saying that faith made the difference the second time. There is nothing to suggest that Hanzō is regarded as being more dangerous than a present-day Sannin when we have the Prodigal Three being the ones praised as the strongest ninjas feared across the globe by the time the manga starts/we were introduced to them, which they wouldn't be unless they had surpassed Hanzō. I'm not convinced that Jiraiya considered him to be their superior at that point.



I'm pretty sure njt means "I'm not quite sure" as opposed to "I'm quire sure he's not", considering that he says just before that "_This is what he says_, but", essentially admitting that he's not reading that interpretation off of the text. Even that acknowledgement just goes to show my point- Jiraiya has made a distinction between fighting and medical treatment, not between medical treatment on the field and medical treatment in a tent as you've been nonsensically insisting (for the umpteenth time, medical treatment by itself covers both of those things, especially with the war having already been brought up). Regarding her battle skills in the same light as her medicinal skills when we know she's the greatest medic implies she's also the what??Right, the top battler. So you can't get around that just looking at the text; your interpretation is the result of you reading something into the text, not off of it.

The point is that it is hyperbolic, just like Kabuto reassuring Orochimaru that he _knew_ there was nobody who could overcome Kimimaro _regardless of who it was_.

Regarding the use of "とやら", just considering where it is I would think that とやら is supposed to demonstrate Jiraiya's uncertainty about exactly how formidable Pain is- something like "Well I'm not sure how strong this Pain is, but still"- and not about Hanzō being killed by Pain, especially since every other translation I've seen has translated that bubble "No matter how powerful this Pain might be"/"Regardless of how strong this Pain may be" without making a mention of Hanzō's own power.  You're the first person I've ever seen include "You must be mistaken?it's not exceeding his" in that translation.


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Talking about Sai not getting done in by the Kusanagi snipe as if Orochimaru was trying to do him in instead of teaching him manners for trying to speak with a clone. What a laugh..


So it's a technique used to intimidate Sai "level" Ninja, I don't think that's any better. But even Sai aside, your asking someone to believe a technique with no noteworthy feats, hype or portrayal whatsoever will land on and defeat an exceptionally quick character. I fail to see, how you can't understand my issue with believing Kakashi looses to this.



> Look Turrin, I don't concede any of those points but we're probably done, because among other things we're just going to keep disagreeing here. I would gladly pick apart every bit of whatever the mess you think that is that you just typed, but I've lost interest in continuing to reply exhaustively because after just reading through it I simply can't shake the feeling that you're playing intentionally stupid


And now were back to petty insults, in lieu of an actually persuasive argument.



> (and I really, really, strongly suggest that you sit down and think a little for once before implying somebody is biased after that hissy fit you threw when the implication was directed at you)


I really, really, strongly suggest that you sit down and re-read what I said, because nowhere is there that implication.



> ). I mean what is this crap about Shizune taking down something as large as a boss summon with the tiny amount of poison she's shown to produce


Considering a Cobra's venom can take down an full sized elephant, i'm not sure why you feel it's so implausible that Shizune w/ poison she brewed through magical ninja skills could take down a boss-summon, but I admit I should have said "may be able" to instead of "can". 



> this bs about Hiruzen being equivalent to Orochimaru


It's what the Fanbook states. Your killing the messenger.



> when Hiruzen himself admitted inferiority


Hiruzen said he expected that he could not face him. An expectation is not a fact, it's an assumption. An assumption that proved false when he did indeed face him.



> it's stated during the fight that he was being toyed with


Orochimaru thought Hiruzen was just allowing himself to be toyed with because he was not expecting Shiki Fuujin to be so powerful. Something he was proven wrong about.



> and the second databook says the fight amounted to a boring game for Orochimaru?


Orochimaru went in with the expectation of a boring game and went out losing the souls in his arms. Again actual results speak more than expectations.



> We saw a "prime" Hanzō acknowledge that he was at considerable risk facing a young Mifune in the past a


False. He didn't see a reason to risk taking his mask off, because Mifune wasn't powerful enough to warrant taking that risk.



> and we have Mifune saying that faith made the difference the second time.


Mifune said Hanzo's lack of faith led to him becoming rusty.



> There is nothing to suggest that Hanzō is regarded as being more dangerous than a present-day Sannin


There clearly is or we wouldn't be having this discussion. 



> when we have the Prodigal Three being the ones praised as the strongest ninjas feared across the globe by the time the manga starts/we were introduced to them


They were praised as such by Ebisu and Ebisu was clearly proven wrong. Now why should anyone take a statement made in early part I from Ebisu, over the infinitely more knowledgable [especially about Sannin and Hanzo's strength] Jiriaya's statements. It just doesn't make sense to me.



> . I'm not convinced that Jiraiya considered him to be their superior at that point.


But you don't have persuasive argument for why your not convinced. You've failed to prove Jiraiya whole heartedly believe the Amegakuru Shinobi's rumor. You've failed to prove that Jiraiya would consider it so unbelievable that Akatsuki-Leader could be >= to Orochimaru. You've failed to prove that Tsunade's statement contradicts Jiraiya's statement about Hanzo. 



> I'm pretty sure njt means "I'm not quite sure" as opposed to "I'm quire sure he's not", considering that he says just before that "This is what he says, but", essentially admitting that he's not reading that interpretation off of the text.


Okay cool, let's go with "not quite sure". That's still a solid translator telling you the line is not clear enough and he clearly feels it means something different than what your saying it does. Essentially means two people that can read the raw text [NJT and Myself] are telling you that the statement is too vague to say Jiriaya certainly believes Tsunade is the strongest Ninja. And your argument requires that it be a certainty, because otherwise it doesn't contradict Jiraiya's statements about Hanzo.

And to be perfectly honest with you, i've been more than fair with this whole thing, considering the Tsunade statement was made back in ch 158 and the Hanzo statements and Hanzo's introduction occur in ch 369, over 200 chapters and many years later. The chances of a retcon are extremely high. So even if you could prove Jiraiya meant that Tsunade is the strongest Ninja, which you can't, your argument is still not reliable. 



> iraiya has made a distinction between fighting and medical treatment, not between medical treatment on the field and medical treatment in a tent as you've been nonsensically insisting (for the umpteenth time, medical treatment by itself covers both of those things, especially with the war having already been brought up). Regarding her battle skills in the same light as her medicinal skills when we know she's the greatest medic implies she's also the what?…Right, the top battler. So you can't get around that just looking at the text; your interpretation is the result of you reading something into the text, not off of it.


I can understand you arguing that maybe I have it wrong, because i'm not a time tested translator, but your fucking telling NJT whose a solid translator that what she's saying is nonsense while having no ability to actually read the raw-text yourself, is where I draw the line. Your argument has basically become that you know better than two people who can read the raw-text, what is being distinguished and what isn't, to the point of calling their view points nonsensical. This is totally unfair off you, i'm sorry, but it just is.

Beyond that, for the fifth time, what is being distinguished is "battle" and "Medical-Jutsu", for the sixteenth time, this distinction is there because medical ninjutsu can be used both inside_ and outside of battle_.  So saying none can stand shoulder to shoulder with her in battle, wouldn't be enough to say she is unparalleled in medical-jutsu, because medical-Jutsu can be used outside of battle. And for the nineteenth time this distinction doesn't mean she is the strongest ninja, it just means that she is the best in battle, which can be a combination of multiple factors.



> The point is that it is hyperbolic, just like Kabuto reassuring Orochimaru that he knew there was nobody who could overcome Kimimaro regardless of who it was.


The actual translation is closer to this:
*looked backed*

And it clearly sets the statement in the context of this mission. I.E. no one one coming to rescue Sasuke could beat Kimi, is what Kabuto is saying. 

Fuck Kabuto questions who is stronger Kimi or Sasuke, a few chapters prior. So he clearly considered weakened Kimi around Sasuke's "level" post CS upgrade. And I know your point is that Kabuto was exaggerating, but there is exaggerating and than there is just being a moron. Kabuto saying someone who is around CS2-Sasuke in strength, can't be beaten by Jiriaya, Itachi, & Tsunade, etc.., would not be him merely making a hyperbolic statement, it would be him loosing his fucking mind. While on the other hand it makes perfectly rational sense that those sent to rescue Sasuke couldn't beat someone around the strength of CS2-Sasuke.



> Regarding the use of "とやら", just considering where it is I would think that とやら is supposed to demonstrate Jiraiya's uncertainty about exactly how formidable Pain is- something like "Well I'm not sure how strong this Pain is, but still"- and not about Hanzō being killed by Pain, especially since every other translation I've seen has translated that bubble "No matter how powerful this Pain might be"/"Regardless of how strong this Pain may be" without making a mention of Hanzō's own power. You're the first person I've ever seen include "You must be mistaken…it's not exceeding his" in that translation.


It is about Pain's formidability, as in Jiraiya doubting Amgakuru-Shinobi's info about how Pain is formidable enough to defeat Hanzo. Like I said and proved "とやら" is doubt over second hand information. Now what exactly was that second hand information in question....it was the Amegakuru shinobi saying Pain beat Hanzo. That's what is directly stated to be in doubt here in the raw text, because that's the subject.

So whether it's 

Jiriaya, "You must be mistaken, no matter how great Pain's strength is it's not exceeding his"

Jiriaya, "That man is known by every person in the Ninja World, Amegakure's Hanzo of the Salamander"

Viz:


"No matter how powerful this Pain might be...there were truly no shinobi that didn't know the name of Amagkure's previous leader, Hanzo of the giant salamander"

Cnet:

Jiraiya: You can say that Pein is strong... // But there is nobody in the shinobi world who doesn't know the name of "Salamander" Hanzou, the chief of the Village of Rain...!

It doesn't matter because in all case, Jiriaya is clearly doubting the Amegakuru-Fodder's assertion that Pain is formidable enough to defeat Hanzo.

My choice of words, is simply because I think it gives greater insight into the raw-text, in a way that other translations don't quite convey clearly enough, though still technically correct in the message and feeling of the text. 

I think "you must be mistaken" more clearly conveys the idea of とやら and I choose not exceeding, because it more closely conveys the idea of "いか"  at the start of the statement. But again the message is the same universally; Jiriaya does not trust the Amagekuru-Ninja's second hand account of Pain's strength being enough to defeat Hanzo:
*looked backed*


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## FlamingRain (Apr 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> So it's a technique used to intimidate Sai "level" Ninja, I don't think that's any better.







> And now were back to petty insults.



It's not an insult that I get the feeling you're playing dumb. If you think it is then fine, I'm past the point of caring whether or not it comes off that way and that's your issue, not mine, because you feeling insulted is not the same as you actually being insulted by me.



> I really, really, strongly suggest that you sit down and re-read what I said, because nowhere is there that implication.



This cannot be coming from the guy who has spent the past 10 days attacking strawmen.

You- "to try and argue against this, as I'd find that *extremely bias and ridiculous*".

In other words, "I know what you're thinking so don't even try it cuz then you're just _biased_".



> Considering a Cobra's venom can take down an full sized elephant.



The poison isn't magical, though the boss summonings are.

There's a much bigger size difference between Shizune and those summons than there is between a cobra and an elephant, and Naruto's reaction to being cut by the poisoned Kunai which Sakura produced with Shizune's instruction was a delayed one, so just imagine how it would work out using those wapons against something like a boss summoning. In all likelihood her needles would just bounce right off anyway, considering how heavily these things slam into the ground without getting hurt and the magnitude of attacks they can be hit by and remain intact after.



> It's what the Fanbook states.



The fanbook doesn't override the manga and the databook's claims to the opposite.

At best, Hiruzen is equally matched with Orochimaru's _playing around performance_, but he's demonstrably not on par with Orochimaru fullstop considering his own comments, Orochimaru's, and the databook's.



> Hiruzen said he expected that he could not face him. An assumption that proved false when he did indeed face him.



It would have only been proven false had Orochimaru been serious when they fought, and he wasn't, so nothing about that statement was proven false. It just goes to show how arrogance can get the best of someone.



> Orochimaru went in with the expectation of a boring game.



The databook doesn't say Orochimaru just had the mere expectation of it being boring.



> False. He didn't see a reason to risk taking his mask off, because Mifune wasn't powerful enough to warrant taking that risk.



Way to misrepresent that sequence.

Hanzo said that against an opponent of Mifune's caliber _he couldn't afford to take that risk_ _(1)_. He sometimes removes his mask _when there's little to no risk of him being injured and left open_ _(2)_, _when there is a significant risk of that happening_ he keeps it on.



> There clearly is or we wouldn't be having this discussion.



No there isn't, and us discussing it doesn't prove there is, because if people can talk about things that don't exist they can talk about things without anything suggesting it.



> They were praised as such by Ebisu and Ebisu was clearly proven wrong.



This is exactly what I mean by playing intentionally stupid.

You know very well the claim I'm talking about there comes from _the databook_, _not_ Ebisu, the databook which also reiterates the "only a Sannin can beat a Sannin" adage after showing Jiraiya's face as he threatens to kill.

But here you are, pretending you didn't already know...



> But you don't have persuasive argument for why your not convinced.



You don't need an argument to be unconvinced about something.



> Okay cool, let's go with "not quite sure". That's still a solid translator telling you the line is not clear enough and he clearly feels it means something different than what your saying it does.



It doesn't matter. The moment the translator admits "_this_ is what the text says, _but_" their following opinion doesn't hold any more weight than anyone else's, because they're no longer deriving their interpretation from what the text itself says and that's the only special privilege they have regarding the issue.

_You_ haven't been saying the statement is too vague, you've been arguing that it has a different meaning than what I thought it did, saying Jiraiya is distinguishing between healing during battle and in a tent, something which not even njt said (so you can quit trying to act like you're affirming the same thing when I say *you've* been nonsensically insisting something, which you have).



> And your argument requires that it be a certainty, because otherwise it doesn't contradict Jiraiya's statements about Hanzo.
> 
> The chances of a retcon are extremely high.



Arguments don't require absolute certainty, mine is no exception to that. All that's required is "does this suggest that x would be more likely to be true than y". That's just your Hanzō hard-on saying otherwise instead of your brain again, and why you've reverted to this horrid "lolretcon" excuse which you fail to apply consistently. Is it or isn't it a retcon, Turrin? You can't have it both ways. You're pretty much trying to say "even if your argument is right you're wrong". There are explanations besides lolretcon. It doesn't have to be a retcon if, as I claimed, these are all to be viewed merely as hyperbolic statements to begin with.



> Beyond that, for the fifth time, what is being distinguished is "battle" and "Medical-Jutsu", for the sixteenth time, this distinction is there because medical ninjutsu can be used both inside_ and outside of battle_.



And that explanation _still_ doesn't make sense because inside or outside of battle that would _all_ fall under the blanket of medical treatment, and we already knew that medics were considered at least as effective treating people on the field as they were in tents, because otherwise there wouldn't have been anything so great about advocating for making sure one of the members of the basic cell was a medic, so that excuse doesn't fly either.



> The actual translation is closer to this:
> (2)



I don't see anywhere in that statement where it says "none of the rookies". That could just as easily be taken as "there's nobody who can beat Kimimaro so why worry about Konoha, they can't beat him either".

It isn't put into that context any more than Jiraiya's statement is put into the context of "Hanzō" being synonymous with an entire regime because the Amegakure fodder said Pain was legendary for having taken down "the old/former Amegakure" all by himself and went on to highlight how tight security was around Hanzō, or how it's put into the context of who would be more powerful than Hanzō _in the Amegakure civil war_, which automatically excludes the Sannin, previous Hokage, Kage, etc. who resided elsewhere and were not participating.



> Kabuto questions who is stronger Kimi or Sasuke, a few chapters prior.



This would only prove my point that these kinds of claims aren't meant to be taken literally, as you noted.



> It doesn't matter because in all case, Jiriaya is clearly doubting the Amegakuru-Fodder's assertion that Pain is formidable enough to defeat Hanzo.



He's doubting he could beat Hanzō _no matter how strong he is_? Is Jiraiya saying Hanzō is omnipotent, Turrin? You talk about people losing their minds as if Jiraiya hasn't...



> My choice of words, is simply because I think it gives greater insight into the raw-text, in a way that other translations don't quite convey clearly enough, though still technically correct in the message and feeling of the text.



And by all appearances you seem to be alone in this.

They can't be both correct and not quite correct.


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## Turrin (Apr 22, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> r
> You- "to try and argue against this, as I'd find that *extremely bias and ridiculous*".
> 
> In other words, "I know what you're thinking so don't even try it cuz then you're just _biased_".


Saying if you were to do something, it would be bias, is not the same thing as saying you are bias. 



> There's a much bigger size difference between Shizune and those summons than there is between a cobra and an elephant, and Naruto's reaction to being cut by the poisoned Kunai which Sakura produced with Shizune's instruction was a delayed one, so just imagine how it would work out using those wapons against something like a boss summoning. In all likelihood her needles would just bounce right off anyway, considering how heavily these things slam into the ground without getting hurt and the magnitude of attacks they can be hit by and remain intact after.


This is a fair point about their durability, I didn't consider that.



> The fanbook doesn't override the manga and the databook's claims to the opposite.


The Manga and Data-books don't say the opposite. Expectations are not the same thing, as what actually occurred. 



> t would have only been proven false had Orochimaru been serious when they fought, and he wasn't, so nothing about that statement was proven false. It just goes to show how arrogance can get the best of someone.


Orochimaru didn't start the battle going full-stop, but nether did Hiruzen. Battles in the Naruto manga rarely start with both shinobi being fully serious and going all out. They get there over time. Orochimaru got serious when Hiruzen pulled out Shiki Fuujin, and even still he could not prevent his arms from being soul ripped.



> The databook doesn't say Orochimaru just had the mere expectation of it being boring.


"Even a fight with his former teacher, the third, this is only a boring past time for Orochimaru. To hurt his teacher, he readies the cruelest stage by bringing back the souls of the dead."

This is talking about the very start of the fight, before hardly any of their cards were played and even before the Edo-Hokages were brought out. So yes it was an expectation and expectation that was proven false. Or are you simply going to ignore all the other comments form the DB that talks about how great of a fight Hiruzen gave Orochimaru

"He heroically mastered the fight with Orochimaru. "
"Through the spirit summoned by the 3rd, Orochimarus soul is seized. The spirit then proceeds to swallow his soul in front of his eyes. As one who made a mockery of lives, with a scream that resounds at the point of death, Orochimaru experiences the terror of his own passing by."
" But the Sandaime laid down the severest, and what could be seen as the severest punishment on Orochimaru who was ambitious to possess all the jutsus in the world."

Orochimaru expected it to be a boring pass time at the start, but than was brought to the point of absolute terror and suffered the severest of punishments by the end. 

Again Results > Expectations.



> Hanzo said that against an opponent of Mifune's caliber he couldn't afford to take that risk (1)n.


Nope Hanzo says it right there, he can't afford to give Mifune "the opening", not can't afford to take the "risk". These are different sentiments. If he couldn't afford to take the "risk", than you'd be right that he can't take the mask off against Mifune. However if he can't afford to give Mifune an opening, he can take his mask off, it's just risky and he has to be careful not to have his venom-sack ruptured.



> . He sometimes removes his mask when there's little to no risk of him being injured and left open (2), when there is a significant risk of that happening he keeps it o


Hanzo does not say the risk is exclusive to Shinobi of Mifune's "level", he just says he's removed his mask in the past, but it's risky. That means there's always a risky, no matter who he's fighting. So there would be no reason for him to take that risk, if he could otherwise defeat the enemy. Which means him using it against weaker enemies than Mifune, is nonsense, because it would be taking a risk against people he could otherwise stomp. It's rather the times that Hanzo removed the mask before, were when he needed to take that risk to defeat the enemy.



> You know very well the claim I'm talking about there comes from the databook, not Ebisu, the databook which also reiterates the "only a Sannin can beat a Sannin" adage after showing Jiraiya's face as he threatens to kill.


So I guess, I should say your playing intentionally stupid for nor realizing that the DB quote your referring to is a question, rather than a statement. Hence me not bothering with it, because a question doesn't substantiate your point.

"Are the only ones who can fight against the three sannins the sannins themselves?"



> It doesn't matter. The moment the translator admits "this is what the text says, but" their following opinion doesn't hold any more weight than anyone else's, because they're no longer deriving their interpretation from what the text itself says and that's the only special privilege they have regarding the issue.


Oh please, she included it as note on her translation. It's obviously meant as clarification that the line is vague and that she leans towards an alternate interpretation than Tsunade is the "strongest-ninja" based on the raw-text. 



> You haven't been saying the statement is too vague,.


Yes, yes I have been arguing that, the entire fucking time in-fact. When I did my initial write up about the translation, I specifically said the way Kishi uses the "dot" there could lead to multiple different translations/interpretations like "Battle and Medical-Jutsu", "Battle-Jutsu and Medical-Jutsu", "Battle-Medical Jutsu", do to how interconnected Kishi wishes for that sentiment to be, through using the "dot" as a connector, and that I was selecting the one I felt conveyed the text more, but acknowledging it might be more appropriate to translate it another way. From there we than began discussing on the basis of the Viz, because you didn't like my translations, and I said even based on the Viz "in-battle" doesn't have to mean Tsunade is the "strongest-ninja", because there are more factors that going into being the best in battle, than just individual strength. I said back in Part I we wouldn't know the answer to whether Jriiaya meant Tsunade was the strongest-ninja or best for other criteria, but as the manga progressed, we learned Jiriaya "likely" meant other criteria, as Jiriaya clearly considers Hanzo and others stronger than her.

Basically my entire point, has been whether we use my translations, NJT, or Viz, Jiriaya's statement allows for alternative interpretations, besides Tsunade is the "strongest-ninja", which discounts your premise, because you need it to have the singular interpretation that Tsunade is the "strongest-ninja" to make your point.



> Arguments don't require absolute certainty, mine is no exception to that..


You haven't even proved it's likely that your interpretation is correct.



> hy you've reverted to this horrid "lolretcon" excuse which you fail to apply consistently. Is it or isn't it a retcon, Turrin? You can't have it both ways. You're pretty much trying to say "even if your argument is right you're wrong". There are explanations besides lolretcon. It doesn't have to be a retcon if, as I claimed, these are all to be viewed merely as hyperbolic statements to begin with.


Nah, i'm just pointing out that your argument is so absurdly weak, that even if someone believed your interpretation over two translators, there would be still reasonable doubt as to the validity of your claim.



> And that explanation still doesn't make sense because inside or outside of battle that would all fall under the blanket of medical treatment, and we already knew that medics


Yes Medical-Jutsu would cover inside and outside of battle, hence why Kishimoto distinguished medical Jutsu from battle, so it would also cover outside of battle as well. That's literally what I said.



> were considered *at least as effective treating people on the field as they were in tents*, because otherwise there wouldn't have been anything so great about advocating for making sure one of the members of the basic cell was a medic, so that excuse doesn't fly either.


This is completely made up by you. And in-fact the manga specifically shows otherwise. When Shizune is doing her complex medical ritual to heal neji, do you think she's able to do that shit mid battle. When Tsunade do medical research to come up with a new treatment for Lee's leg, is she going to be able to sit down and read books mid battle. Come on this is just ridiculously silly.



> I don't see anywhere in that statement where it says "none of the rookies". That could just as easily be taken as "there's nobody who can beat Kimimaro so why worry about Konoha, they can't beat him either".


Kabuto says what hinderance can Kimi face, which is speaking towards this mission specifically, and thus puts the statement in context of this mission. 



> It isn't put into that context any more than Jiraiya's statement is put into the context of "Hanzō" being synonymous with an entire regime


The context of the Hanzo statement is clearly Hanzo's strength, because Jiraiya puts the context there with flashbacks and the way he words his statements.



> This would only prove my point that these kinds of claims aren't meant to be taken literally, as you noted


Or it just proves that you are once again choosing an interpretation that contradicts the text, when there is an equally valid one that does not. And no the Sasuke statement does not help your point, because it wouldn't be hyperbola it would be out of character moronic behavior for Kabuto.



> He's doubting he could beat Hanzō no matter how strong he is? Is Jiraiya saying Hanzō is omnipotent, Turrin? You talk about people losing their minds as if Jiraiya hasn't...


It's not a matter of omnipotence, it's a matter of Jiriaya considering Hanzo the strongest ninja [or at least strongest active ninja], and he can't imagine Pain could exceed that level of strength.


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## Turrin (Apr 22, 2015)

@Flamingrain - Continuation 

And for the record, i'm not saying hyperbola and retecons don't exists in the Naruto-manga, they do, It's just the more that I read the raw text and find better translations the amount of these decrease. So I'm not going to assume a statement is a hyperbola unless there is good evidence to support that notion. When it comes to the Hanzo statement specifically regardless of it being a hyperbola or not the scene still clearly is set up to establish Hanzo as stronger than Jiriaya. Firstly if Hanzo actually was weaker than a Sannin, than he'd serve no point in hyping Akatsuki-Leader, when other Akatsuki are as strong as Sannin, and secondly the manga builds on Hanzo's hype by actually showing evidence off it with the Sannin flashback. You can quibble about us not knowing how strong the Sannin were for sure back then, but that disregards the meaning of the flashback - the flashback was there to show evidence for why Jiriaya considered Hanzo so powerful, and that's how it should be taken. Thirdly whether Jiriaya words were hyperbola or not, his sheer shock, awe, and respect for Hanzo implies Hanzo was stronger than Jiriaya himself, as Jiriaya would not be so shocked at the defeat of a man who is weaker than Sannin "level" considering prior to leaving to goto amegakuru, Tsunade and Jiriaya literally talk about how Akatsuki Leader could be powerful enough to kill Jiriaya, who is a Sannin. So I don't think it's a hyberola, but even if it was I still think the context of the scene is clearly placing Hanzo above the Sannin.  So for me to disregard this based on just well maybe it's a hyperbola, I would need a strong argument as to why, and I am not getting that from you. All you've said is Jiraiya actions were too lax for the statement for him to believe Hanzo is stronger than himself, but I don't consider Jiriaya's actions lax and you've failed to prove that Jiraiya even believed the Amegakuru ninja, while all evidence from the raw-text points to the opposite.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 22, 2015)

Sorry, Turrin. Like I said I'm done with engaging in the exhaustive multi-post-long responding, probably just responding, because it's simply become utterly unproductive and unprofitable.

My conclusion remains that I've seen no argument that would convince me to take the Hanzō comment out of the hyperbolic statement category and it's not likely that I will.

The databook quote I was referring to that you tried to attribute to Ebisu is in the profile saying "strongest three ninjas that put fear into the hearts of enemies far away", it's not a question. The "can only a Sannin can beat a Sannin" quote is a rhetorical question- it's just a maxim expressing the general truth of the claim rather than genuinely trying to elicit an answer from the reader.

The testimonial about Hanzō comes from Jiraiya- Jiraiya did not know that there were other Akatsuki as strong as the Sannin, nor did he think it was likely that the Akatsuki leader would be as strong as himself considering his attitude about going to fight him compared to his wariness of battling Orochimaru. Jiraiya being shocked that Hanzō was killed means Hanzō was really strong, not that he was stronger than the Sannin themselves. Not every testament to strength is assumed to be understood to be preceded by "in comparison to me [the person speaking]", otherwise Madara would have never retracted his claim that Tsunade was weak, because _compared to him_ she obviously still was, and defeating people feared across the globe who even the man reputed to be the strongest of the Five Kage wouldn't _is an astonishing feat in and of itself_. If there were enough of a chance of a Sannin being killed by a single member of Akatsuki that it wouldn't also be astonishing then Jiriaya would have at least entered Sage Mode before fishing out Pain instead of after finding out that what he was up against was the Rinnegan.

Your address just isn't convincing for me.


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## Turrin (Apr 22, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> the profile saying "strongest three ninjas that put fear into the hearts of enemies far away", it's not a question.


K cool, so I guess than your playing intentionally stupid, by not acknowledging that the context is both at some undisclosed point in the past and about all three Sannin combined:

"She who was adulated as the Three Sannins, the strongest ninja who put fear into the hearts of enemies far away, is once more revived!"



> . The "can only a Sannin can beat a Sannin" quote is a rhetorical question- it's just a maxim expressing the general truth of the claim rather than genuinely trying to elicit an answer from the reader.


It's not a rhetorical question. It's a question posed to readers based on certain people in the manga, like Ebisu, holding that belief. 



> The testimonial about Hanzō comes from Jiraiya- Jiraiya did not know that there were other Akatsuki as strong as the Sannin,



_Tsunade: "Akatsuki"... / Somebody who managed to gather together a group of that strength... // I don't want to think how strong he must be... / And then you're planning to head right into the palm of his hand.

Jiraiya: Well... I guess I should be going.
Tsunade: Make sure you come back alive...

7
Jiraiya: ........
Tsunade: If I lose you on top of everything... I..._

Frog: You want me around? / What is this about?!
Jiraiya: I'm planning to go up against a pretty powerful guy.
Frog: Huh... And this guy's so strong you need to make sure I can get away?
Jiraiya: This is just a precaution... / Now, come on, I need to activate the seal of release.

Yup that's why he had two conversations about how Akatsuki-Leader could be strong enough to kill him, because he certainly didn't believe Akatsuki-Leader could be Sannin "level".



> ot every testament to strength is assumed to be understood to be preceded by "in comparison to me [the person speaking]", otherwise Madara would have never retracted his claim that Tsunade was weak, because compared to him she obviously still was, and defeating people feared across the globe who even the man reputed to be the strongest of the Five Kage wouldn't is an astonishing feat in and of itself.


Madara was not in shock into a state of incredulous disbelief over Tsunade's strength.



> If there were enough of a chance of a Sannin being killed by a single member of Akatsuki that it wouldn't also be astonishing then Jiriaya would have at least entered Sage Mode before fishing out Pain instead of after finding out that what he was up against was the Rinnegan.


Jiraiya could have gone up against multiple Akatsuki members and he still didn't enter Sennin Modo, despite previously admitting at the very least that multiple Akatsuki are more troublesome than Orochimaru. Jiriaya didn't go Sennin Modo before hand because of Plot, the fact that your trying to justify it any other way is absurd, when Jiriaya could have ended up having to face multiple Akatsuki and the entire Amegakuru army. 

Instead of using hiding behind the fact that no ninja rarely use their strongest Jutsu first, even when it's prudent to do so, for the sake of plot, why not look at Jiraiya's actually actions and conversations. Why not look at the fact that him and Tsunade blatantly discuss how the Akatsuki-Leader strength could be immense and how Jiriaya could be killed by him. Why not look at the fact that Jiraiya specifically takes the time to let the Toad-Scroll get away before hand because of how strong the Akatsuki-Leader could be and the fact that he may die? Why not look at these blantant indications that Jiraiya considered it very possible that Akatsuki-Leader could kill a Sannin?


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## FlamingRain (Apr 22, 2015)

_"acknowledging that the context"_

The databook just talks about the _three_ Sannin as being the strongest, not "as a group", not "when combined" (and it's redundant to say three three ninjas, so "the three" can be understood as "one of the"). Because Tsunade is obviously _*not* three different people_, it's highlighting her as _*one of* those three ninjas that are deadlocked for the strongest_.

Chronologically speaking that means they've surpassed Hanzō, because Hanzō _precedes_ their era.

Furthermore, _yes_, the question in the databook _is_ a rhetorical question- it's to prove a point about how deadly the Sannin must be, which is why it's accompanied by a picture of Jiraiya's threatening face instead of one of Ebisu talking like it does the other times it simply references what somebody already said in the manga.


_"because he certainly didn't believe"_

If you've been paying any attention whatsoever to what I've been saying, you'd have noticed that I haven't been claiming Jiraiya "certainly" didn't believe anything. I said myself that he "could" consider the Akatsuki leader being that strong, it's just that "could" =/= "likely would" or "expectantly". The Akatsuki leader "could" have been superior to Hanzō, it's just that one "wouldn't" have "expected" that he "likely would" be, hence hearing such would be astonishing. Acting as though I've been arguing certainty is attacking yet another strawman.  I've been arguing that Jiraiya seemingly figured the Akatsuki leader _most likely wouldn't have been_ as strong as he was, because if he had he wouldn't have thought that he shouldn't be too long despite starting in base instead of Sage Mode.


_"Madara was"_

Madara doesn't need to be in a state of incredulousness in order to demonstrate _the point I was making_, which is that power testaments aren't always to be understood as "in comparison to the person saying them".


_" multiple Akatsuki members "_

Jiraiya knew the Akatsuki traveled around in split pairs already, meaning he knew he probably wouldn't run into multiple Akatsuki (or at least the not the high ranking members).


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## Turrin (Apr 22, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> _"acknowledging that the context"_
> 
> The databook just talks about the _three_ Sannin as being the strongest, not "as a group", not "when combined" (and it's redundant to say three three ninjas, so "the three" can be understood as "one of the"). Because Tsunade is obviously _*not* three different people_, it's highlighting her as _*one of* those three ninjas that are deadlocked for the strongest_.
> .


The DB is talking about her being one of the Sannin, who collectively were the strongest three ninja. The DB expands on this later talking about how the Sannin's strength multiplied several times over due to their fantastic team-work. They were a legendary three man cell. 



> Chronologically speaking that means they've surpassed Hanzō, because Hanzō precedes their era.


The obviously surpassed Hanzo at a certain point because Hanzo declined in strength, while they grew in strength. It's whether they surpassed Prime-Hanzo that's in contention here tho. 



> Furthermore, yes, the question in the databook is a rhetorical question- it's to prove a point about how deadly the Sannin must be, which is why it's accompanied by a picture of Jiraiya's threatening face instead of one of Ebisu talking like it does the other times it simply references what somebody already said in the manga.


It proves they are threatening by referencing the fact that someone people think only another Sannin can beat them, but it leaves it as a question to readers so as to avoid making a direct claim.



> If you've been paying any attention whatsoever to what I've been saying, you'd have noticed that I haven't been claiming Jiraiya "certainly" didn't believe anything. I said myself that he "could" consider the Akatsuki leader being that strong, it's just that "could" =/= "likely would" or "expectantly". The Akatsuki leader "could" have been superior to Hanzō, it's just that one "wouldn't" have "expected" that he "likely would" be, hence hearing such would be astonishing. Acting as though I've been arguing certainty is attacking yet another strawman.


It's not that you've been arguing it, it's that your argument necessitates that, because otherwise, it would not be as shocking as Jiraiya statements indicate. But fine let's even go off the idea that it's "unlikely" that Akatsuki-Leader is equal to a Sannin. That still makes no dam sense, considering Jiraiya's convos with the Toad-Scroll and Tsunade. Tsunade clearly did not consider it unlikely that Akatsuki-Leader was as strong as a Sannin, considering how she speaks about him being immensely powerful and fears that Jiraiya could be killed. That is not the speech of someone that considers it unlikely that Akatsuki-Leader is even Sannin "level", and Jiraiya does nothing to rebuke this. Fuck latter on Naruto even questions why the hell Tsunade allowed Jiraiya to go on such a risky mission, and she doesn't deny it, rather she flashback to her once again telling Jiriaya how dangerous the mission was and Jiraiya talking about how he would put his life on the line, rather than saying it was not that dangerous:

_Naruto: ......... // Old lady... did you give him permission to...? // .........
Tsunade: I did.
Naruto: Why did you let him do a crazy thing like that?!! // You know as well as anyone how Ero-sennin is! / Going to a dangerous place like that, all by himself......
Kakashi: Stop this, Naruto.

4
Kakashi: Surely you can appreciate how the Fifth must feel about this.
Flashback!Tsunade: That's too dangerous for you to attempt alone...!
Flashback!Jiraiya: I am one of Konoha's Sannin. / You should understand what that entails. // You were so beautiful back then, and now you're an old woman of fifty... // I guess you're packing all your feelings towards those you've lost inside that huge chest of yours... / And there are only going to be more from now on... // But that doesn't mean we should get all miserable. // Our job is to provide good role models for the next generation, and lend them our help. // For their sake, we can smile as we put our lives on the line._

Every part of that indicates, that Tsunade and Jiraiya considered the Akatsuki-Leader >≈  Jiraiya, not that it was "unlikely" that Akatsuki-Leader was close to a Sannin in strength. Than we have the conversation with the Toad-Scroll, where Jiraiya specifically indicates he needs to make sure the Toad-Scroll escapes because he's going up against someone whose strong enough to potentially kill him. Again no part of that convo indicates it's "unlikely" that Akatsuki-Leader is Sannin "level", it rather builds on what was already established that Akatsuki-Leader is immensely strong and a huge threat to Jiraiya's life. 

And from a perspective of Jiraiya own knowledge it isn't even unlikely. He knew of multiple Ninja throughout his life time that were >= to a Sannin, and potentially knew about even more Ninja than that, which were on that "level". There is no reason for Jiraiya consider it "unlikely" that the Leader of multiple other powerful S-Class Missing Ninja, whose names "resound in every country", which included ninja around Sannin "level", and indeed an actual Sannin, to be around ≈ to Sannin. And before you say being the Leader doesn't have to do with strength, it does when Jiraiya and Tsunade's convo specifically put the title of Leader in that context, _"Somebody who managed to gather together a group of that strength... // I don't want to think how strong he must be"_. 

I'm sorry, but at no point does the manga ever indicate Jiraiya or even another Sannin Tsunade, considers the Akatsuki-Leader, to "likely" be weaker than a Sannin, and everything indicates otherwise. 



> I've been arguing that Jiraiya seemingly figured the Akatsuki leader most likely wouldn't have been as strong as he was, .


Sorry, but this is where your argument falls apart. Even if Jiraiya didn't consider it "likely" that Akatsuki-Leader was a strong as a Sannin, why wouldn't he still take the precaution of entering Sennin-Modo. It cost him nothing to enter the mode before the fight and he took other precautions like allowing the Toad-Scroll to escape before hand, and using the Amegakuru Shinobi to cloak his position with his Shadow-Technique. It's IC for Jiraiya to take that extra precaution whether he believes Akatsuki-Leader is "likely" to be that strong or not. 

So on no "level" does this argument work. You have no proof that he consider it "unlikely" Akatsuki-Leader was as strong as a Sannin and even if you did, it would still be OOC for Jiraiya to not take the precaution of entering Sennin-Modo anyway. Your argument just makes no sense whatsoever.



> because if he had he wouldn't have thought that he shouldn't be too long despite starting in base instead of Sage Mode


Again for the third time, he didn't use Sennin Modo because of Plot. It's the same reason Deidara doesn't start out with C4/C3 against Hebi-Sasuke, someone who he knew killed Orochimaru. It's the same reason Kisame doesn't start out in Kisamahada form against the 8-Tails Jinchuuriki, he knew outplayed Sasuke. It's the same reason Sasuke doesn't start out immediately with CS2 and immediately using Kirin despite going up against Itachi. It's the same reason Naruto doesn't immediately go full Godruto mode despite going up against Juubidara. It's the reason Ei doesn't go immediately go Max-Speed-R2 before facing Sasuke, despite believing Sasuke beat "B". It's the same reason Sasuke doesn't immediately use MS against B, despite knowing his the 8-Tails Jinchuuriki and seeing his skills first hand. And so on. 

This happens all the time and in most matches, yet your sitting here trying to play it off as somehow evidence of how strong Jiraiya considered Akatsuki-Leader to be, like it supercedes the very real statements that indicate Jiraiya and another Sannin consider Akatsuki-Leader to be a huge threat to him, please dude, just stop, you are digging such a deep hole for yourself with this argument it's ridiculous.



> Madara doesn't need to be in a state of incredulousness in order to demonstrate the point I was making, which is that power testaments aren't always to be understood as "in comparison to the person saying them".


Uhh...yes he does, because that's the whole fucking point. Jiraiya being in a state of incredulous is what makes Hanzo's strength reflect back on Jriaiya [even, if you ignore the actual statements], because it would not make sense for Jiraiya to be in such a state of disbelief if Hanzo was weaker than a Sannin, for reasons previously discussed.

Madara saying your strong doesn't reflect back on him, because he's not fucking baffled by how anyone could be as strong as Tsunade. Without the bafflement the implication disappears, because that bafflement is the implication.



> iraiya knew the Akatsuki traveled around in split pairs already, meaning he knew he probably wouldn't run into multiple Akatsuki (or at least the not the high ranking members).


Multiple, "consisting of, including, or involving more than one "

Pair, "two people who are related in some way or who do something together"

So if he knew they travel in pairs, than it's very plausible he could have run into Akatsuki-Leader and his/her partner. Than there is the potential of other Amegakuru Shinobi aiding their Leader. Yet even still your telling me Jiraiya IC wouldn't take the precaution of Sennin-Modo. Please...you should know that him not going Sennin-Modo was plot, to save that triumph card for a more dramatic reveal.


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