# Juubi Obito vs Accelerator | Juubi Obito vs Fiamma



## ~Greed~ (Aug 3, 2013)

Two matches in one fight. 

It probably won't make a difference, but for the purpose of the match, Chakra=AIM. 

For fight 1:

Scenario 1: Base Accelerator vs Base Adult Obito

Scenario 2: Base Accelerator vs Juubito

Scenario 3: Blackwing Accelerator vs Juubito

Scenario 4: Angel Accelerator vs Juubito

Speed equal if needed.


For Fight 2:

Scenario 1: Base Fiamma vs Base Adult Obito

Scenario 2: Fiamma with Index's controller/knowledge vs Juubito

Speed equal if needed.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 3, 2013)

Juubito isn't continent level (at least quantifiably, the giant BB could be, but no way to calc it reliably yet), so the only option he has left is to walk through everything while phased, then do his dimensional BFR

if that works


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## Neruc (Aug 3, 2013)

I have no idea about Fiamma.

For Accel,cant Juubito turn intangible and release a black jinton inside of Accel?

Otherwise BFR'ing is his only option.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 3, 2013)

> release a black jinton inside of Accel?


wouldn't vector shield still protect him ?


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## Neruc (Aug 3, 2013)

IIRC we had this discussion on MF(A long one too),and Accel never managed to redirect a country level + atomization attack from inside of his own body.
Outside he dealt with that Meltdown arm that atomizes.but not inside.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 3, 2013)

+ it says _Angel_ Accel vs Juubito, Angel Form is currently accepted to have regular continent durability as far as I know



base Accel vs Juubito would be a better match


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## Neruc (Aug 3, 2013)

Wouldn't atomization work either way?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 3, 2013)

it does not ignore durability, just much more potent then BBs or his chakra arm strength


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## Neruc (Aug 3, 2013)

How many petatons does Accel sit at currently?

The second form Juubi's BB was slightly over half a petaton,and Juubito when not in control of his power was able to tear down those barriers that withstood a much stronger BB.
And here we are talking about atomization.

Ignoring all of this,does Juubito actually need to touch the opponent to BFR him?
I think there were instances where he didn't.


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## DHxCohaco (Aug 3, 2013)

> Scenario 1: Base Accelerator vs Base Adult Obito


this is a huge stomp in Accelerator's favor 
also juubito has no chance against angel Accelerator


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 3, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> + it says _Angel_ Accel vs Juubito, Angel Form is currently accepted to have regular continent durability as far as I know
> 
> 
> 
> *base Accel vs Juubito would be a better match*



Extra scenario added. Actually, 2 extra scenario's added.



Neruc said:


> I have no idea about Fiamma.
> 
> For Accel,cant Juubito turn intangible and release a black jinton inside of Accel?
> 
> Otherwise BFR'ing is his only option.



Has Obito ever turned intangible and attacked the inside of someone's body?

Either way, probably wouldn't work, since Accelerator has defended against dimensional attacks like teleportation before. 



Fluttershy said:


> wouldn't vector shield still protect him ?



If your referring to his defense against dimensional attacks, then probably.



Fluttershy said:


> Juubito isn't continent level (at least quantifiably, the giant BB could be, but no way to calc it reliably yet), so the only option he has left is to walk through everything while phased, then do his dimensional BFR
> 
> if that works



well crap, I thought Juubi's bijuu bomb was continent level.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 3, 2013)

> The second form Juubi's BB was slightly over half a petaton,and Juubito when not in control of his power was able to tear down those barriers that withstood a much stronger BB.
> And here we are talking about atomization.


yep, should make his black Jintons >>> then the regular BB (would only need to be 2.5-3+ times higher to hit baseline continent level and it's likely much more then 3 times .. that one calc of mine put the giant BB @ exatons, but we can't use it that way), but quantifying is the problem 





> does Juubito actually need to touch the opponent to BFR him?


I believe so .. Kakashi can do it from range


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## Neruc (Aug 3, 2013)

Othinus said:


> Has Obito ever turned intangible and attacked the inside of someone's body?


He should be able to.
He left the Black Jinton attached to Minato and then left,so its feasible.





> Either way, probably wouldn't work, since Accelerator has defended against dimensional attacks like teleportation before.


Does he have that protection in all of his forms?



Fluttershy said:


> yep, should make his black Jintons >>> then the regular BB (would only need to be 2.5-3+ times higher to hit baseline continent level and it's likely much more then 3 times .. that one calc of mine put the giant BB @ exatons, but we can't use it that way), but quantifying is the problem


Actually the problem now is if Juubito can even phase though Accel's vectors.




> I believe so .. Kakashi can do it from range


Must be my faulty memory then.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 3, 2013)

@ Othinus  it's not a dimensional attack 

he phases into another dimension to become effectively intangible


to attack normally he phases back in

the BFR is putting the target inside that dimension with a warp done by touch


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## Neruc (Aug 3, 2013)

And Accel has to add something to his database or something before he can redirect it right? 

I know chakra=AIM but the black Jinton is far above any other Jutsu due to its complexity.
Would Accel still need to register it?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 3, 2013)

Accel probably takes it even in base


unless this is not on a planet where he can't leech his petatons


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## Neruc (Aug 3, 2013)

Standard location is the Hyperbolic time chamber


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 3, 2013)

Neruc said:


> He should be able to.
> He left the Black Jinton attached to Minato and then left,so its feasible.
> Does he have that protection in all of his forms?


That wasn't actually inside his body though was it?

Also, yea, he has dimensonal defenses in all forms, even base.




Fluttershy said:


> @ Othinus  it's not a dimensional attack
> 
> he phases into another dimension to become effectively intangible
> 
> ...




Hmmm.....

Would this work on someone who can ignore attacks that travel into one dimension and then exit back into the real world? Because that's how teleportation works in toaru. It isn't true teleportation, but rather something like dimensional travel.

See here for more info, see here:


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## Qinglong (Aug 3, 2013)

Khajit said:
			
		

> outright stated when he ran into magic the first time
> basically in accel's own words. When teleporters try crap to him "shit gets weird"
> basically it's because teleortation in raildex is just movement
> via extra dimensions
> ...



The most I could get is in verse teleportation doesn't matter to him, dunno if this helps


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 3, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> Accel probably takes it even in base
> 
> 
> unless this is not on a planet where he can't leech his petatons



For the sake of the match and so accel can use all of his abilities. The fight takes place in Misaki City from Shakugan no Shana.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 3, 2013)

wouldn't know, but like I said base Accel probably wins anyhow


you'd need  to beat him


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## Neruc (Aug 3, 2013)

Othinus said:


> That wasn't actually inside his body though was it?


It wasn't,but there shouldn't any reason he cant let it inside of his body considering Obito was able to port outside attacks in his dimension,and in this case he can probably stick his hands inside Accel(if he can) and then create the Black Jinton there since it has a short creation time.

Juubito himself is mach 160+



Fluttershy said:


> wouldn't know, but like I said base Accel probably wins anyhow


Well probably.



> you'd need  to beat him


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## Xam (Aug 3, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> The most I could get is in verse teleportation doesn't matter to him, dunno if this helps



It should, since ToAru's teleportation is in 11 dimensions and it did shit to him, He should be protecting against BFR and maybe phasing via that.


Fluttershy said:


> wouldn't know, but like I said base Accel probably wins anyhow
> 
> 
> you'd need  to beat him


You just whore out that calc's link.



Neruc said:


> It wasn't,but there shouldn't any reason he cant let it inside of his body considering Obito was able to port outside attacks in his dimension,and in this case he can probably stick his hands inside Accel(if he can) and then create the Black Jinton there since it has a short creation time.
> 
> Juubito himself is mach 160+
> 
> ...



Didn't zer0 and damastah bring up some kinetic energy argument?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 3, 2013)

> You just whore out that calc's link.


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## Neruc (Aug 3, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Didn't zer0 and damastah bring up some kinetic energy argument?



I stopped caring by that point.


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## Xam (Aug 3, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


>





Neruc said:


> I stopped caring by that point.



You made the thread then left halfway.
you are such a


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## Neruc (Aug 3, 2013)

No I didn't make the thread.

I just deviated from the "Accelerator stomps" lines that everyone was spouting 
And I regret it


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 3, 2013)

And here I was thinking this would be more even.

I'm actually kind of disappointed that this wasn't as even as I thought it was.


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## Xam (Aug 3, 2013)

Neruc said:


> No I didn't make the thread.
> 
> I just deviated from the "Accelerator stomps" lines that everyone was spouting
> And I regret it


Who made it then? 

It was a good devation...at first, then the mini-shitstorm set in , at which point you retreated. Scaredy Cat.



Othinus said:


> And here I was thinking this would be more even.
> 
> I'm actually kind of disappointed that this wasn't as even as I thought it was.


Accel is just too good mayne.


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## Neruc (Aug 3, 2013)

Well you could have waited for more feats for Juubito.

But then again,he'll probably be moon busting in the next chapters 



Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Who made it then?
> 
> It was a good devation...at first, then the mini-shitstorm set in , at which point you retreated. Scaredy Cat.



Jellal did.

I got bored.


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## Xam (Aug 3, 2013)

Neruc said:


> Well you could have waited for more feats for Juubito.
> 
> But then again,he'll probably be moon busting in the next chapters


Turrible downplay. 
Dying RS Sennin was moon-small planet busting, just look at flutters calc. 

Juubito is obviously going to go straight for Star Busting. 




Neruc said:


> Jellal did.
> 
> I got bored.


Of course it was Jelly, forgot.

Yet you never get bored of debating against FT, Neru a secret FT hater?...wait.


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## Regicide (Aug 3, 2013)

Neruc said:


> And Accel has to add something to his database or something before he can redirect it right?


Nah. Accelerator could reflect magic despite knowing nothing about it and having never encountered it before.

Kakine only circumvented his redirection by using Accel's subconscious filter against him.


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## JustFan (Aug 3, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Yet you never get bored of debating against FT, Neru a secret FT hater?...wait.


Neru being a secret To Aru hater might be legit 
Remember the Genocyber thread 
Then again we all know Neru is just tsundere for FT, so he could be a tsundere for To Aru too, (despite never watching it) who knows?


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 3, 2013)

^Another new member from MF?


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 3, 2013)

Also, what about Fiamma's fight against Juubito?


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## Regicide (Aug 3, 2013)

Don't think Juubito can really do anything to Fiamma, grimoires or no.


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## RedSurvivor (Aug 3, 2013)

Fiamma's chicken claw Holy Right takes this I believe.


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## Xam (Aug 3, 2013)

JustFan said:


> Neru being a secret To Aru hater might be legit
> Remember the Genocyber thread
> Then again we all know Neru is just tsundere for FT, so he could be a tsundere for To Aru too, (despite never watching it) who knows?


That's npt cool , ToAru is quality.
Dat Thread 

Broru-ru is a tsun for everything. 


Othinus said:


> ^Another new member from MF?


Fanny-tan joined before me. xD


Othinus said:


> Also, what about Fiamma's fight against Juubito?


pretty sure Fiamma takes it rather handily too.


RedSurvivor said:


> Fiamma's *chicken claw* Holy Right takes this I believe.


Pefect


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## Regicide (Aug 3, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> That's npt cool , ToAru is quality.


Careful, words like those will get you lynched around here.


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## Xam (Aug 3, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Careful, words like those will get you lynched around here.


A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. .
I also like JJBA and Beserk since before I joined here, which are rep getters 

I have varied tastes


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## lokoxDZz (Aug 4, 2013)

Fiamma stomps juubito and the verse in base


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## Shiorin (Aug 4, 2013)

Othinus said:


> Also, what about Fiamma's fight against Juubito?


Konan showed that base Obito can only maintain his intangibility for 10 minutes continuously. Once he's done, Holy Right swats him.

Index's grimoires grant Fiamma some neat tricks. Time Related to Life and Death is convenient against Juubito's staff. Space-time defense takes care of any counter.


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## Tir (Aug 4, 2013)

Continent Accel?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 4, 2013)

hmm, btw, Obito via his Rinnegan should have the Human Path ability to rip out souls


would that work on base Accel ?


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## ikoke (Aug 4, 2013)

I remember reading in an old thread that base Accel's vector defense doesn't work against exotic stuff like soulfuck.(not 100% sure since i've never read To-aru)

So Gedo Mazou's ranged soulfuck could come in handy.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 4, 2013)

btw can base Accel fly ? in order to get away from Juubito ? 


someone mentioned making a black Jinton inside Accel, but if we're talking about attacking him from the inside then simply phasing a fist inside his gut should kill him (since base Accel by himself has like wall durability), no ? 



basically:

- Juubito phases (from what I understand Accel can't attack something in another dimension), reaches his intangible fist inside Accel (say the brain or something), then phases back in .. the vector shield would be able to affect him again as soon as he's phased back into solid, but by then it's already too late since his fist is already inside, tearing it apart ?  either that or the soulfuck (since it seems Accel has protection against dimensional BFR/teleport ?)


possible or not ? 

talking about vs base Accel


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## Shiorin (Aug 4, 2013)

The soulfuck requires touch and a little time. If he puts his hand on Accel he instantly gets his blood flow reversed.


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## ikoke (Aug 4, 2013)

Shiorin said:


> The soulfuck requires touch and a little time. If he puts his hand on Accel he instantly gets his blood flow reversed.



Gedo Mzou's soulfuck is ranged.


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## Neruc (Aug 4, 2013)

Wouldn't Accel destroy it the instant it appears?

The Black Jinton is still a valid strategy if Accel cant fly away in time due to the standard starting distance of 10-20 meters and the speed difference between them.


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## Shiorin (Aug 4, 2013)

ikoke said:


> Gedo Mzou's soulfuck is ranged.


Was talking about Human Path. Only Nagato has a feat of performing the ghost dragon thing by letting the statue rape him.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 4, 2013)

I'm not sure he has blood, being made of the same mass as Juubi  (he didn't bleed when he was missing half of his body and neither did Juudi when it tore out a chunk of its body), though that's speculation I guess (and Juubito has country+ durability, base Accels own power is island level IIRC, without leeching the rotation energy first)


and I don't recall soulfuck requiring time other then pulling the soul out 

that and Juubito is faster (blitzed some MHS chars vs Accels Mach 70 mental reactions), Accel still has to consciously use it on Juubito as far as I know



+ I mentioned soulfuck as one of the options .. if simply a fist/hand materializes inside Accels brain - what would happen ?


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## Shiorin (Aug 4, 2013)

Well there's the physical motion of pulling it out. Naruto was able to struggle against it with Nagato but that may be unique to him. Even if Accel can't reverse his blood flow, his auto-defense can still repel Obito by reversing all vectors against his hand. In general touching Accel doesn't work.

Blitzing a phased object into Accel's brain should work.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 4, 2013)

to be fair, I don't see current Juubito going with the whole phase into the brain/body option, at least right away even if it should be available to him


maybe later in the fight if he survives that long (he should, so long as PIS/CIS is off and he uses his phasing as he used to before for everything)


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## ikoke (Aug 4, 2013)

Shiorin said:


> Was talking about Human Path. Only Nagato has a feat of performing the ghost dragon thing by letting the statue rape him.



It's true that Obito hasn't displayed the ability to summon the ethereal dragons. But his overall control over the Gedo seems to be much better than Nagato's(he can actually summon and use it in combat),so it should be possible for him to manifest the sealing dragons as well.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 4, 2013)

well technically it was GM itself that used the soulfucking dragons

GM is Juubis body, later became the Juubi which was then absorbed and made into Juubitos body


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## Xam (Aug 4, 2013)

Soulfuck definitely should work, since Accel has resistance to mindfuck, but not soul fuck, Base Accel does have flight via 6 tornado things he has on his back, but it's hardly very fast compared to Juubi's speed, when it showed in in Volume 12/13 he didn't use it to fly iirc, then he didn't use it to fly until NT1 where he was keeping up with a Powered Suit that wasn't even going 1050 m/s since after Accel got forced to stay back Hamazura on Dragon Rider caught up, it's possible he can go faste with them, but he hasn't shown it.

As for phasing through and sticking stuff, on MF someone brought up that since Accel has shown that ToAru's 11 dimesnions teleportation doesn't work on him, it should help him defend against just being BFR's or phased when Juubito uses Kamui.

I can go find it if anyone's wants me to.

Edit: Wow I haven't been negged into oblivion for saying I like ToAru and it's good.


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## Neruc (Aug 4, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Edit: Wow I haven't been negged into oblivion for saying I like ToAru and it's good.



Want me to change that? 

And I think the 11 dimension stuff was already brought up in the thread,but go find that quote if you wish.


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## RedSurvivor (Aug 4, 2013)

I knew where the quotes were, so I just figured i'd grab them real quick.

For how Toaru teleportation works.


> Shirai’s ability was called instant teleport. It was not limited to 3 dimension rules, so she could move about freely within space.
> 
> However, there was a weakness to this ability. Though the phrase ‘to teleport within space’ sounded simple, the theory behind it was to get away from the 3 dimensions, find her position in the 11th dimension, and then calculate the vectors to teleport. Such calculations complexity couldn’t be compared to the simple commands that ordinary espers would have, like ‘fire a fireball’, ‘fire electric strikes’.




For Accel's ability to block it.


> When he reflected teleportation powers, a strange phenomenon occurred in the 3 dimensional world, but this had felt entirely different.



It's not stated how exactly his reflection works in this case though, whether he prevents it from materializing inside his body or his outer vector shield somehow blocks it.


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## Xam (Aug 4, 2013)

RedSurvivor said:


> I knew where the quotes were, so I just figured i'd grab them real quick.
> 
> For how Toaru teleportation works.
> 
> ...


Good ol Red. 



Neruc said:


> Want me to change that?
> 
> And I think the 11 dimension stuff was already brought up in the thread,but go find that quote if you wish.


Bro's don't neg bro's unless they're wanking. 

and RS already got it.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 4, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Soulfuck definitely should work, since Accel has resistance to mindfuck, but not soul fuck, Base Accel does have flight via 6 tornado things he has on his back, but it's hardly very fast compared to Juubi's speed, when it showed in in Volume 12/13 he didn't use it to fly iirc, then he didn't use it to fly until NT1 where he was keeping up with a Powered Suit that wasn't even going 1050 m/s since after Accel got forced to stay back Hamazura on Dragon Rider caught up, it's possible he can go faste with them, but he hasn't shown it.




Accel giving up against Silvercross's Highway Cheetah was one of the most bullshit moments in the series. Almost on the level of Accel losing to Kihara Amata in their first fight.

We already know that Awakened and angel level beings in toaru move at at least mach 20 from a statement in the series itself where it was stated that Blackwing accelerator air punched Kihara Amata at dozens of times the speed of sound, meaning at the very least, mach 20, but likely faster.

We also know that Accelerator with Tornado wings has the ability to fight in a three way battle against Kazakiri and Gabriel without getting speedblitzed. If he were below mach 1, he'd be getting wrecked.

I mean hell, even Mugino has a very simple calc that puts her at mach 20+, and she's shit tier compared to Accelerator.


As far as soulfuck working.

If it requires contact, it's not working. If it doesn't require contact, it will work.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 4, 2013)

@ Othinus what about this ? :



> if simply a fist/hand materializes inside Accels brain - what would happen ?





> basically:
> 
> - Juubito phases, reaches his intangible fist inside Accel (say the brain or something), then phases back in .. the vector shield would be able to affect him again as soon as he's phased back into solid, but by then it's already too late since his fist is already inside, tearing it apart ?
> 
> talking about vs base Accel




from what I understood Accel can protect himself from getting BFRed, but this way Obito would only be using his kamui on himself and then rematerialize inside Accels brain/some vital body part for an insta-kill (don't enough have to _do_ anything with it, just having it appear inside should be enough given Accels own durability in base)


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## Xam (Aug 4, 2013)

Othinus said:


> Accel giving up against Silvercross's Highway Cheetah was one of the most bullshit moments in the series. Almost on the level of Accel losing to Kihara Amata in their first fight.


This is true. 
>omgsmychokewon'tworkinatunnel


Othinus said:


> We already know that Awakened and angel level beings in toaru move at at least mach 20 from a statement in the series itself where it was stated that Blackwing accelerator air punched Kihara Amata at dozens of times the speed of sound, meaning at the very least, mach 20, but likely faster.


Yup.


Othinus said:


> We also know that Accelerator with Tornado wings has the ability to fight in a three way battle against Kazakiri and Gabriel without getting speedblitzed. If he were below mach 1, he'd be getting wrecked.


This is what I forgot, I thought he went straight into Dark wing, I remember now, he went Tornado wing mode and flew up leaving WORST and LO behind. Never mind then, his Tornado mode is fast.

No idea how he didn't catch Silvercross. lolkazuma


Othinus said:


> I mean hell, even Mugino has a very simple calc that puts her at mach 20+, and she's shit tier compared to Accelerator.


Haven't seen that since I'm new, but I know Mugino has HS+ bursts from her fights..I think.


Othinus said:


> As far as soulfuck working.
> 
> If it requires contact, it's not working. If it doesn't require contact, it will work.



I don't remember Gedo Mazo needing contact, then again it's lolnardo, so I don't prioritize it's feats.
Not until RS shows up and planetbusts.. 



Fluttershy said:


> from what I understood Accel can protect himself from getting BFRed, but this way Obito would only be using his kamui on himself and then rematerialize inside Accels brain/some vital body part for an insta-kill (don't enough have to _do_ anything with it, just having it appear inside should be enough given Accels own durability in base)



Since it's base accel it should work, although that's if he literally appears inside and gets a sure fire hit, because iirc in his Aiwass fight, Accel was almost bisected or some shit and kept the blood flowing so he wouldn't bleed out.


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## RedSurvivor (Aug 4, 2013)

Doesn't Accel's protection against teleport cover this? Obito's intangibility works by having Obito's body phase into his own dimension whenever he touches something correct? If he phases, say, his hand into Accel's body then brings it back from his dimension, that seems like something covered by Accel's reflection. 

Toaru teleport works by moving something into the 11th dimension then back into the 3rd dimension, either in empty space or inside an object. The concept seems similar here.

Ranged soulfuck certainly works though.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 4, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> This is true.
> >omgsmychokewon'tworkinatunnel



Pretty much. He actually wasn't sure if it would work or not, he just didn't want to risk it and let shiage handle things.




> Yup.
> 
> This is what I forgot, I thought he went straight into Dark wing, I remember now, he went Tornado wing mode and flew up leaving WORST and LO behind. Never mind then, his Tornado mode is fast.
> 
> ...



Pretty much. And lolkazuma indeed




> Haven't seen that since I'm new, but I know Mugino has HS+ bursts from her fights..I think.



remember her using her meltdowner arm to propel herself so she wasn't hit by those 200kg bombs shiage tricked her into setting off? That's where the feat comes from.




> I don't remember Gedo Mazo needing contact, then again it's lolnardo, so I don't prioritize it's feats.
> Not until RS shows up and planetbusts..



I don't know. My memory of Naruto feats is vague at best.




> Since it's base accel it should work, although that's if he literally appears inside and gets a sure fire hit, because iirc in his Aiwass fight, Accel was almost bisected or some shit and kept the blood flowing so he wouldn't bleed out.



It actually said Accelerator was cut in half iirc. Not sure he survived that if he was truly "cut in half".

And technically angel mode and darkwing don't have soulfuck resistance either.


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 4, 2013)

RedSurvivor said:


> Doesn't Accel's protection against teleport cover this? Obito's intangibility works by having Obito's body phase into his own dimension whenever he touches something correct? If he phases, say, his hand into Accel's body then brings it back from his dimension, that seems like something covered by Accel's reflection.
> 
> Toaru teleport works by moving something into the 11th dimension then back into the 3rd dimension, either in empty space or inside an object. The concept seems similar here.




Yes. It's very similar. I actually brought this point up earlier.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 4, 2013)

> by having Obito's body phase into his own dimension whenever he touches something correct


not only when he touches someone

any time he wants any of his own body parts or the whole body can shift into the other dimension



to prevent this Accel would need to be able to stop Obito from using his own kamui on himself (not on Accel) to make his own hand (Obitos hand) solid again

he doesn't use anything on Accel directly, other then materializing his own hand inside Accels body/brain


don't know enough about ToAru mechanics to say whether this is covered .. earlier someone mentioned it would work

if it doesn't - how would it function ? Obito would not be able to phase his hand/body back inside the "main" dimension so long as that intangible hand is inside the same space occupied by Accels body ? And as soon as it's out of the body - he can phase it in again ?


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## ~Greed~ (Aug 4, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> from what I understood Accel can protect himself from getting BFRed, but this way Obito would only be using his kamui on himself and then rematerialize inside Accels brain/some vital body part for an insta-kill (don't enough have to _do_ anything with it, just having it appear inside should be enough given Accels own durability in base)



That's actually how teleport works in toaru. So it probably wouldn't work. So I can be lazy and don't have to explain a lot of mumbo jumbo in regards to how toaru teleport works,  

Basically, they send an object (or themself) from the 3d world (the normal world) into the 11th dimension (the teleporters dimension), and back into the 3d world (usually into a human body or some other target).

Pretty similar to Obito's ability in the way it works.

So my opinion would be that no, Obito's dimensional fuckery probably won't work very well.


----------



## Xam (Aug 4, 2013)

RedSurvivor said:


> Doesn't Accel's protection against teleport cover this? Obito's intangibility works by having Obito's body phase into his own dimension whenever he touches something correct? If he phases, say, his hand into Accel's body then brings it back from his dimension, that seems like something covered by Accel's reflection.
> 
> Toaru teleport works by moving something into the 11th dimension then back into the 3rd dimension, either in empty space or inside an object. The concept seems similar here.
> 
> Ranged soulfuck certainly works though.


It should protect in the phasing instance.

Gedou Mazo still a problem. 


Othinus said:


> Pretty much. He actually wasn't sure if it would work or not, he just didn't want to risk it and let shiage handle things.
> 
> Pretty much. And lolkazuma indeed


Shiage did have a cool bike though , Accel letting him have it totally makes sense.

Yup.


Othinus said:


> remember her using her meltdowner arm to propel herself so she wasn't hit by those 200kg bombs shiage tricked her into setting off? That's where the feat comes from.


Oohhh yeah. Volume 19, Shiage's face was probably priceless.

Yay Mugino feats. 


Othinus said:


> I don't know. My memory of Naruto feats is vague at best.


Same here, especially since recent feats are so much crazier.


Othinus said:


> It actually said Accelerator was cut in half iirc. Not sure he survived that if he was truly "cut in half".
> 
> And technically angel mode and darkwing don't have soulfuck resistance either.


Completely? It's even more impressive then , I remembered it as almost, enough to bleed out super fast.

This is true, but don't mention that. shh


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 4, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> he doesn't use anything on Accel directly, other then materializing his own hand inside Accels body/brain



Actually this is the problem. A weird unknown phenomena would occur and the phase would be rejected. This is basically how teleport works in toaru except instead of a human body they usually use an object.

To use Kuroko as an example, she teleports spikes or when in need, glass panels into an object, which displaces the object and if human, would normally kill it.

However, if used on accelerator, a weird phenomena happens and apparently accelerator comes out unharmed. In all likelyhood, if Kuroko were to use her attack on Accelerator, the teleport would be cancelled, and no matter would be displaced.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 4, 2013)

Othinus said:


> That's actually how teleport works in toaru. So it probably wouldn't work. So I can be lazy and don't have to explain a lot of mumbo jumbo in regards to how toaru teleport works,
> 
> Basically, they send an object (or themself) from the 3d world (the normal world) into the 11th dimension (the teleporters dimension), and back into the 3d world (usually into a human body or some other target).
> 
> ...


and Accel can stop this ? not just stop someone from sending/BFRing himself somewhere, but also stop people from using their own dimensional/phasing ability on themselves ?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 4, 2013)

Othinus said:


> Actually this is the problem. A weird unknown phenomena would occur and the phase would be rejected. This is basically how teleport works in toaru except instead of a human body they usually use an object.
> 
> To use Kuroko as an example, she teleports spikes or when in need, glass panels into an object, which displaces the object and if human, would normally kill it.
> 
> However, if used on accelerator, a weird phenomena happens and apparently accelerator comes out unharmed. In all likelyhood, if Kuroko were to use her attack on Accelerator, the teleport would be cancelled, and no matter would be displaced.


alright, close enough then


----------



## Xam (Aug 4, 2013)

So what about Gedo Mazo then?
Is it ranged? I remember it being ranged when Pein used it, not sure if Obito can use it the same way though.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 4, 2013)

GM is ranged


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 4, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> and Accel can stop this ? not just stop someone from sending/BFRing himself somewhere, but also stop people from using their own dimensional/phasing ability on themselves ?



It doesn't really make a difference whether it's a human or an object. 

To use Kuroko as an example again, she could teleport her first into his head, but a weird phenomena would happen and it would fail. 

To further clarify, if it were a normal human and she teleported his first into their head, their brain would be displaced and he fist would take the place of the part of their brain that was originally there.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 4, 2013)

what if he tried to do that with that Jinton bomb as Neruc mentioned ?

it's at least a high country+ atomization explosion/expansion, but would that matter compared to a fist ? or it simply wouldn't materialize at all ?


----------



## RedSurvivor (Aug 4, 2013)

I know Obito is MHS, but how fast is GM? Just wondering if Accel could break it before it soulfucks him. 

Not sure if Jinton would be any different from trying to phase anything else.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 4, 2013)

as I mentioned before, GM is Juubis dead body that later became Juubi that was later absorbed into Obito and became his body


so in a way GM is Juubito now


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 4, 2013)

thanks for the explanations btw


----------



## RedSurvivor (Aug 4, 2013)

Hm. Well, if Juubito uses his soulfuck ability right away that's probably game. If he uses anything else, and especially if he gives Accel anything to reflect, he probably ends up in a fridge. Speed equal i'm less sure about. 

Just my opinion though.


----------



## ShadowReaper (Aug 4, 2013)

Accel reflects Bijuu dama right at him.


----------



## Xam (Aug 4, 2013)

@Flutter

damastah/zer0/RedSurvivor/Fan brought up a Kinetic Energy argument since because of Accel's brain rewriting feat, this is just appliccable to Juubito inserting Jinton into Accel though, Soulfuck is still fair game.



			
				RedSurvivor/Servant said:
			
		

> Accel's control has been shown to be insane. He individually controlled every electrical impulse in Last Order's mind in order to reset her mind to the way it was a week before.





			
				Justfan said:
			
		

> Again, electrical impulses aren't exactly explosions, aren't they?
> They are easy to redirect without hurting anything because they are small.





			
				damastah said:
			
		

> electrical impulses deal with the fusion/fission of synapses and charges of the ions/radionuclides/stuff in the brain with charges in the current(assuming it's electrical in form). These same overlying reactions compose an explosion. Now considering Accel altered them to a state a week before, which has an impact on the half-life of the radioactive decay of the radionuclides the brain has, it wouldn't be too far-fetched to fine tune it to an explosion..... question is if Accel is fast enough to do it.





			
				Justfan said:
			
		

> Accel technically has a way to bring out the atomizing attack out of his body
> He has a feat of affecting electric impulses inside someone's head before, so it's possible that he can turn the explosion to atoms and safely bring them out of his body through his own atoms.
> I don't really remember Accel making something so energetic into something so small through, but it might be possible to do inside his body, where his vector shield is everywhere





			
				damastah said:
			
		

> NO just NO. Turning the explosion into atoms? He somehow dissipates the Explosion's weighted energy and kinetic force by countersetting it with a force equal to it's own(displacement) where in he calculates the require atomic displacement rate and uses his atoms as a medium to displace the force out of his body. As i said depends if Accel can calculate in time/fast enough.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 4, 2013)

ShadowReaper said:


> Accel reflects Bijuu dama right at him.


he can tank it or erase it with his black Jinton defence or phase through it

so that won't do anything


Accel wins though, unless Obito just stays away and phased for a stalemate .. that's a fanfic though


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 4, 2013)

I'm not too comfortable with saying that Juubito can use the ranged soulfuck phantom dragons until he shows this ability btw


even though he does have everything for it (Rinnegan, GM etc.)


----------



## steveht93 (Aug 4, 2013)

Since when was accelerator continent level? The attack that angle  accelerator tanked from flamma is mostly unquantifiable.


----------



## RedSurvivor (Aug 4, 2013)

I believe this thread went back over that.



Discussion happened on the wiki as well, and I think the consensus was that Accel is Island-level + in Base and Darkwing without prep, Continental + with prep, and is always Continental + in Angel mode.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 4, 2013)

steveht93 said:


> Since when was accelerator continent level? The attack that angle  accelerator tanked from flamma is mostly unquantifiable.


We can use the nuke calculator for that attack.

Since it would have enveloped all of Eurasia and shit.


----------



## steveht93 (Aug 4, 2013)

But I thought the reason why the attack is unquantifiable is because we don't know it's nature and it didn't hit its target as well. 

Did endless mike comment on the wall feat calc? I remember him having a hard time swallowing the feat.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 4, 2013)

steveht93 said:


> But I thought the reason why the attack is unquantifiable is because we don't know it's nature and it didn't hit its target as well.


What nature of the attack?

It's just a rain of Telesma that results in an explosion, just like any of Birdway's summoned explosions. Touma and Fiamma even say as much.


----------



## Dogescartes (Aug 4, 2013)

Accel is so broken is not even funny.


Is like a toned down GER.
it will always be broken, no matter how many year pass


----------



## Xam (Aug 4, 2013)

fedecala said:


> Accel is so broken is not even funny.
> 
> 
> Is like a toned down GER.
> it will always be broken, no matter how many year pass


A very very toned down GER.

Although ToAru verse has KL to set things to zero, doesn't even begin to compare.


----------



## ikoke (Aug 4, 2013)

GER is not needed,this guy teaches Accel what a truely broken fighter is capable of.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 4, 2013)

fedecala said:


> Accel is so broken is not even funny.


Not really, since all he really does is defend against physical attacks, mindfuck, and telefrags. And explode people by reversing their bloodflow.

Accel still gets wrecked by more abstract shit.


----------



## Shiorin (Aug 4, 2013)

Othinus said:


> It doesn't really make a difference whether it's a human or an object.
> 
> To use Kuroko as an example again, she could teleport her first into his head, but a weird phenomena would happen and it would fail.
> 
> To further clarify, if it were a normal human and she teleported his first into their head, their brain would be displaced and he fist would take the place of the part of their brain that was originally there.


At first I thought the vector calc to counter teleport isn't part of his auto defense, which means he could be blitzed, but then I checked volume 20, and it is. So Accel actually no-sells that. Plus here AIM=chakra so it's debatable if the phantom dragons would phase through Accel to soulfuck him even if Obito could use them.

So Juubito's options are to overwhelm Accel, because he isn't out-haxing him.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 4, 2013)

hows does AIM=chakra (whatever that means) stop the soulfuck ?


----------



## RedSurvivor (Aug 4, 2013)

I think Shio is stating that since the...dragon things apparently need to touch you to rip out your soul, Accel's field should prevent them from touching him. As for whether that works, I dunno. If it's really a physical contact thing then yeah, but I don't know enough about how Obito's soulfuck works to say.


----------



## Shiorin (Aug 4, 2013)

The phantom dragons soulfuck by phasing through you and carrying away your soul. I'm assuming they're still made of chakra which would be standard in Nardoverse. 

If chakra were not equalized with AIM, then as shown in his fight with Kakine it would be an unknown force to Accel and he would have to experience it first to learn how to counter its vectors. But since it is equalized, the dragon would be a mass of AIM like that of espers, its phasing nature similar to teleporters that Accel already automatically shuts down.


----------



## RedSurvivor (Aug 4, 2013)

Well, we know Accel's ability works on mana (he can reflect it at least), which is the life force of magicians. As far as I know, chakra = the lifeforce of ninjas. So he may be able to do that regardless.


----------



## Xam (Aug 4, 2013)

So even the Dragons don't work. Juubito still hasn't evolved yet to be able to take Accel.
Pity.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 4, 2013)

Perhaps we should put Juubito against someone else in the cast instead.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 4, 2013)

> I'm assuming they're still made of chakra which would be standard in Nardoverse.


wouldn't know for sure, but they may just be some kind of ~spirits (*phantom* dragons), like the Shinigami or King of Hell etc.


not everything is made of chakra


----------



## Blackfeather Dragon (Aug 4, 2013)

Othinus said:


> And here I was thinking this would be more even.
> 
> I'm actually kind of disappointed that this wasn't as even as I thought it was.



Give it a few more months maybe obito shows something


----------



## Xam (Aug 4, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Perhaps we should put Juubito against someone else in the cast instead.



Hyouka maybe? Rensa #29?


----------



## RedSurvivor (Aug 4, 2013)

Rensa would just basically be Accel vs. Juubito again though, since all of her strongest powers come from him.

Hyouka I don't think can beat Juubito. She's not resistant to soulfuck or mindfuck, and her only good feats come from managing to not immediately die against Gabriel (who I think I recall not really trying very hard to kill her). If it was just a slugging match then maybe, her regeneration is pretty awesome, but Juubito's hax probably wins.

Edit: Actually, thinking about it, if chakra is equalized to magic, Hyouka has that whole anti-magic thing going on. That might be enough to get her the win if they're equalized.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 4, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Hyouka maybe? Rensa #29?


Rensa is essentially the same thing as fighting Accel.

Kazakiri doesn't have the feats to take on Juubito, she's only double-digit gigatons.


----------



## Xam (Aug 4, 2013)

RedSurvivor said:


> Rensa would just basically be Accel vs. Juubito again though, since all of her strongest powers come from him.
> 
> Hyouka I don't think can beat Juubito. She's not resistant to soulfuck or mindfuck, and her only good feats come from managing to not immediately die against Gabriel (who I think I recall not really trying very hard to kill her). If it was just a slugging match then maybe, her regeneration is pretty awesome, but Juubito's hax probably wins.
> 
> Edit: Actually, thinking about it, if chakra is equalized to magic, Hyouka has that whole anti-magic thing going on. That might be enough to get her the win if they're equalized.


That last paragraph might work.
Thoughts anyone?


Regicide said:


> Rensa is essentially the same thing as fighting Accel.
> 
> Kazakiri doesn't have the feats to take on Juubito, she's only double-digit gigatons.



Oh yeah. 

Damnit, such a large Divide in ToAru characters.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 4, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Damnit, such a large Divide in ToAru characters.


Wall level low tiers.

Planet level top tiers.


----------



## Regicide (Aug 4, 2013)

gnhsgjian said:


> For Accel,cant Juubito turn intangible and release a black jinton inside of Accel?


This was already covered in earlier pages.


----------



## kenzabo (Aug 4, 2013)

i'm new to the obd
i want to ask a question.
does accel shield work with time stop ? like Dio+The World
i don't know where to ask


----------



## Regicide (Aug 4, 2013)

kenzabo said:


> i'm new to the obd
> i want to ask a question.
> does accel shield work with time stop ? like Dio+The World
> i don't know where to ask


Redirection won't protect him against timestops.

Unless it's the shitty kind where attacks conveniently stop in midair right before hitting the target and only start moving again when time resumes.


----------



## Xam (Aug 4, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Wall level low tiers.
> 
> Planet level top tiers.




Amata is only street level without his guns 

and isn't Gabriel Star Level because she can toss them around?


----------



## Regicide (Aug 4, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Amata is only street level without his guns
> 
> and isn't Gabriel Star Level because she can toss them around?


Misha needs to be in space for that.

Can't exactly throw a star into the planet while you're on it if you don't have the durability to tank it yourself.


----------



## Xam (Aug 4, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Misha needs to be in space for that.
> 
> Can't exactly throw a star into the planet while you're on it if you don't have the durability to tank it yourself.


Oh yeah, shit, sleep deprivation really does cause me to forget shits.


----------



## P3IN (Aug 30, 2013)

Accel can take this, he has continental plus DC and durability (JUUBITO is currently country level+ same durability) 

And dimesnional BFR lol


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 30, 2013)

RS solos


----------



## Xam (Aug 30, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> RS solos



RS isn't in match Flutter.


----------



## ShadowReaper (Aug 30, 2013)

Both of these guys stomp him.


----------



## Xam (Aug 30, 2013)

ShadowReaper said:


> Both of these guys stomp him.



Wait, wat?
You saying Fiamma and Accel beat Juubito?

That was already decided mayne, P3ln brought the thread back up from being done with.


----------



## willyvereb (Aug 30, 2013)

Obito's intangibility and BFR are pretty similar to what teleporters do in ToAru.
So it won't work.
And even if Accelerator cannot leech the rotational energies of a planet, he can take out Juubito by redirecting anything he throws at the albino.

As for Fiamma, he probabl needs to be in his LPSaD form by which point this is a merciless stomp.
Fiamma's Holy Right has sub-relativistic reactions (can block a laser that just came down from the ceiling).
And logically the Holy Right should have durability equal to its DC.
So it can tank anything up to planet level.
Holy Right can most likely also ignore Obito's intangibility.


----------



## Xam (Aug 30, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> - snip -


LPSAD is ridiculous stomp like you said, Base Fiamma should be enough right though..


----------



## P3IN (Aug 30, 2013)

> P3ln brought the thread back up from being done with.



I could not help but not notice such an intriguing thread


----------



## willyvereb (Aug 30, 2013)

Base Fiamma is "only" ilsand level+, IIRC.
That continent-busting claim was about the Telesma which was left behind after Fiamma lost his LPSaD form.
In short it was an one-off event.
Albeit I remember some sort of continent level feat/claim for a mid-powered Fiamma.
That might count.


----------



## Xam (Aug 30, 2013)

P3IN said:


> I could not help but not notice such an intriguing thread


Intriguing or not mayne, it was done for like a week. 
What's the necro rules on here anyway? Though I doubt you broke them.

Edit: It's been 25 days since last post before yours mayne, y u do dis


willyvereb said:


> Base Fiamma is "only" ilsand level+, IIRC.
> That continent-busting claim was about the Telesma which was left behind after Fiamma lost his LPSaD form.
> In short it was an one-off event.
> Albeit I remember some sort of continent level feat/claim for a mid-powered Fiamma.
> That might count.


Was he really? I remember someone claiming Continent Level Fiamma in base due to power scaling or something.

Fiamma with Index Controller? That's the only "mid-powered" Fiamma I remember, and iirc his DC wasn't really boosted that much with that, since Pendex herself is only like Island level.


----------



## willyvereb (Aug 30, 2013)

The point of Fiamma's link with Index was to allow him to better control the Holy Right.
Him gaining Index's power and collection of spells was merely a bonus.


----------



## Xam (Aug 30, 2013)

I should probably go read Volume 22 again then. 

I remember him taking Control of Index being merely a intelligence boost as to how to use his HR, while he needed IB to actually get full control of his Holy Right.

Don't remember Pendex actually helping control HR any better.


----------



## willyvereb (Aug 30, 2013)

Not like my memories are an better of the series, mind ou.
But yeah, Imagine Breaker was a must for Fiamma to fully control his Holy Right.


----------



## Xam (Aug 30, 2013)

Just did a quick check, It was something about refining the Holy Right through Index's knowledge.
That does sound like his control over HR got better.

Although I definitely don't remember him showing Continent Level with Pendex Mode.
I'm too lazy right now, so perhaps I'll read through later to try and confirm or deny that.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 30, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Obito's intangibility and BFR are pretty similar to what teleporters do in ToAru.
> So it won't work.
> And even if Accelerator cannot leech the rotational energies of a planet, he can take out Juubito by redirecting anything he throws at the albino.
> 
> ...



Planet level based on what again?


----------



## Xelloss (Aug 30, 2013)

To be accurate to have a better control of overwhelming power a overwhelming knowledge is needed, this is what he gains with pendex, basically make the holy right stable enough to remove its time limit.

As willy point out, this doesn't increase the power of the holy right


----------



## willyvereb (Aug 30, 2013)

Because LPSaD Fiamma can crush an entire planet (Earth?) to dust with his Holy Right.

Right, closer to small planet level (pulverization doesn't require as much energy as mass-scattering) but it still stands.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 30, 2013)

You mean when Fiamma tripped that loser flag, and Kamachi worded it in Third Person Limited?

Just spent a week discrediting the validity of that claim. If your brain cells can handle it, check the FCK vs Fiamma thread out


----------



## Gundam Meister (Aug 30, 2013)

You dint debunk anything Techron so don't go around with your blatant massive downplaying


----------



## TehChron (Aug 30, 2013)

Considering you literally contributed nothing to the discussion, and I spent the entire thread tearing down yours, Lokodoxs, and Greedos protests to the contrary to the point you all gave up...Yeah I did.

But hey, if youre right and Im wrong, heres another excellent chance for you to prove so, then


----------



## ~Greed~ (Aug 30, 2013)

There's no need, since everyone still disagrees with you.

We gave up because debating with you is like debating with a brick wall.


----------



## willyvereb (Aug 30, 2013)

TehChron said:


> You mean when Fiamma tripped that loser flag, and Kamachi worded it in Third Person Limited?
> 
> Just spent a week discrediting the validity of that claim. If your brain cells can handle it, check the FCK vs Fiamma thread out


Maybe you did.
(Have better things to do than check a thread which never interested me)

But the way you word this makes you sound more like a frustrated moron.
This near-gloating attitude and unprovoked aggressive reaction makes one suspect that your "victory" was actually being closer to "meh, he's too dense to reason with".
It kinda feels like you're overcompensating somehow.
So allow me to express my doubts here.
My impression could be wrong, though.
By all means, you're free to prove the opposite.

Anyways, from what I know there are precedents of planetbusting claims.
The original of Etzali's obsidian spearhead.
The original Gungnir.
This.
I'm far from being the most familiar with this verse but I'm aware of at least these.
Gabriel's feat of potentially altering the Earth's orbit by merely restoring its wings is also in the small planet busting range (exatons to single digit zettatons, I did a few lazy calcs a year ago but forgot the exact number).
And there's Gabriel's feat of moving multiple stars at once.
So it isn't like planetbusting the highest feat in the verse.
I even remember something about LPSaD Fiamma being above Gabriel but it's been a while and I also heard that this statement got debunked recently.

To sum it up, Fiamma's planetbusting claim is about as valid as the various continent level claims and feats in the verse.
Attacking it is an obvious case of double standards, IMO.


----------



## TehChron (Aug 30, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Maybe you did.
> (Have better things to do than check a thread which never interested me)
> 
> But the way you word this makes you sound more like a frustrated moron.
> ...



Oh, hey, taunting someone who's trying to get a rise out of someone else. That's new.

Anyway, I dont recall an instance of Fiamma in LPSaD mode being superior to Gabriel. But the crux of what I was saying was that Fiamma didnt have a clue what he was talking about. In any way, shape, or form. And given the writing style used in the series, its not really an author statement, but closer to a character one worded from a third person perspective.

But again with this double standard stuff? Weird.


And Greedo, youre free to disagree with me, but arguing from belief doesnt mean a thing. Especially when the material is in favor of my argument.


----------



## Xam (Aug 30, 2013)

@Willy
Is he was literally known at "The One above God"

How can be lower than Gabriel?


----------



## TehChron (Aug 30, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> @Willy
> Is he was literally known at "The One above God"
> 
> How can be lower than Gabriel?



Because we dont have anything better to call him?


----------



## OS (Aug 30, 2013)

I swear you're like those people on 4chan that think accelerator can beat superman or flash. You are either challenged or trolling.


----------



## Xam (Aug 30, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Because we dont have anything better to call him?


Pretty Sure Kazuma could have thought up another title. LPSAD is pretty obvious in it's meaning.



Original Sin said:


> I swear you're like those people on 4chan that think accelerator can beat superman or flash. You are either challenged or trolling.


Who you referring to here mayne?


----------



## TehChron (Aug 30, 2013)

Original Sin said:


> I swear you're like those people on 4chan that think accelerator can beat superman or flash. You are either challenged or trolling.



You're the ones basing your conclusions off of a claim of debatable accuracy. Asserting that about a random claim from someone who doesnt even know how much power his own weapon uses is the same as a retarded NLF now?

And apparently Im the one who's challenged


----------



## TehChron (Aug 30, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Pretty Sure Kazuma could have thought up another title. LPSAD is pretty obvious in it's meaning.



Its pretty obvious because that was Fiamma's Goal and he then calls himself that after acquiring Imagine Breaker, because he assumes thats what hes become?

Unless you're going to argue that Fiamma's knowledge on such matters is unassailable, and we all know where that leads


----------



## OS (Aug 30, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Pretty Sure Kazuma could have thought up another title. LPSAD is pretty obvious in it's meaning.
> 
> 
> Who you referring to here mayne?


Tech



TehChron said:


> You're the ones basing your conclusions off of a claim of debatable accuracy. Claiming that a random claim from someone who doesnt even know how much power his own weapon uses is the same as a retarded NLF now?
> 
> And apparently Im the one who's challenged



I don't see anything debatable about the claim.


----------



## Xam (Aug 30, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Its pretty obvious because that was Fiamma's Goal and he then calls himself that after acquiring Imagine Breaker, because he assumes thats what hes become?
> 
> Unless you're going to argue that Fiamma's knowledge on such matters is unassailable, and we all know where that leads



Fiammas goal was simply to realign the elements and gain full control of his HR, he showed dis-satisfaction with the fact that he'd become LPSAD, or the title he assigned to himself.

Also, his knowledge isn't unassailable, but he still have 103,000 Grimoires and knows more about his powers than anyone else. His head was up his ass in how to save the world, but not in what his power was, he just didn't know his outer limits.

and also to your post above 

The thing is, it's not really debatable accuracy.
Almost all feats are either that way or through actual actions.

Thor being able to destroy a District in NT6 is now of debatable accuracy? And that's the one similar feat I can think off of the top of my head. 

Regardless, I won't respond even if you do, I'm at home sick and not in mood for a shit storm like FCK thread . I talk enough about language arts and shits in school. 





Original Sin said:


> Tech


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## willyvereb (Aug 30, 2013)

To sum it up, characters making claims on their power doesn't automatically make them incorrect.
It's incorrect when that'd meet certain contradictions.
In this sense there's little difference between character claims and statements made by the "omniscient narration".
Author statements/neutral claims are on a bit higher scale of believability.
But it doesn't mean those cannot be attacked.
The only true difference is that it's easier to explain why character statements are wrong.


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## TehChron (Aug 30, 2013)

Original Sin said:


> I don't see anything debatable about the claim.



Well, clearly not. But since you're not getting the main reason not to take that seriously, I'll bring it up with ABC logic, then.

We have an example of a literal "God" in the series. Othinus, right? When she encountered the Thing hidden in Touma's arm, she very casually one-shotted it. Just squeezed it, and then it gave up and vanished. She even expressed disappointment in it.

That very same Thing that casually wiped out Fiamma's "planet busting" energy blast. That LPSaD Fiamma was quite literally shitting himself in fear over in that very same passage after that feat.

Then there's the fact that even Ollerus and Fiamma _with his power to Save the World that activated when he took in IB in the first place_ failed to do anything other than stalemate that same Magic God.

So he's hardly the top of the food chain. So we should rely on feats, rather than Fiamma's limited and mistaken claims when scaling this stuff.

Is there anything wrong with that reasoning?


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## TehChron (Aug 30, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> To sum it up, characters making claims on their power doesn't automatically make them incorrect.
> It's incorrect when that'd meet certain contradictions.



Fiamma was mistaken about a lot of things relating to that entire situation. He even gets called out on it in the text.

So why should this be an exception?


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## willyvereb (Aug 30, 2013)

Like I said before, I'm far from being the most familiar with ToAru.
So I'm standing on the neutral side here.
Just telling that even if the claim was made by Fiamma (which IIRC isn't but made by the narrator, but again I'm not the most knowledgeable in this series), it wouldn't necessarily be wrong.
That'd be like jumping the gun.


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## Regicide (Aug 30, 2013)

TehChron said:


> That very same Thing that casually wiped out Fiamma's "planet busting" energy blast.


Pretty sure that was IB.


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## TehChron (Aug 30, 2013)

Xamgun D. Auchhior said:


> Fiammas goal was simply to realign the elements and gain full control of his HR, he showed dis-satisfaction with the fact that he'd become LPSAD, or the title he assigned to himself.



His objective was to realign the elements and draw out "the" Enemy to be Defeated. With the power of LPSaD. His objective was to obtain the power, which would then draw out his opponent. Which is a fantastic plan, by the way.



> Also, his knowledge isn't unassailable, but he still have 103,000 Grimoires and knows more about his powers than anyone else. His head was up his ass in how to save the world, but not in what his power was, he just didn't know his outer limits.



He didnt even know how much power went into his individual strikes. He said it himself when commenting on the Holy Rights inability to one-shot Touma and his Imagine Breaker.



> and also to your post above
> 
> The thing is, it's not really debatable accuracy.
> Almost all feats are either that way or through actual actions.
> ...



Thor destroying a district in NT6 isnt of debatable accuracy. He showed the firepower to display it. Gabriel life-wiping or planet busting isnt of debatable accuracy for similar reasons.

Fiamma mountain-busting. Fiamma arguably continent busting with the Telesma blast, those things aren't of debatable accuracy. But its a big step up from there to planet-busting, and that needs something a bit more solid. Sub-relativistic reactions for the HR? Sure. Spells out the ass? Sure.

Planet-busting, though? The text just doesnt support that.


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## TehChron (Aug 30, 2013)

Original Sin said:


> tencharacter



That 50/50 gamble encompasses every possibility she's capable of. So in exchange for the power to overwhelm two people of Base Fiamma's caliber, she also has the possibility to lose an arm in exchange for chopping off Ollerus' when he has his guard down.

So? Just means that Fiamma has 50/50 odds of standing a chance against her in a fight.



> Pretty sure that was IB.





> In fact, the great swirl of light Fiamma had fired had split in two right in front of the boy and scattered to either side of him. Yet that attack had held such power that it could blow away a planet or recreate any of the legends in Christianity.
> It was almost like?
> It was almost like it had been blown away by an invisible right hand stretching from the wound on the boy?s shoulder.
> ?What??? Fiamma of the Right said still not having grasped what had happened.
> ...



Anyway, Willy, that's why I brought up the Narrative Mode issue. Nothing in Third Person Limited is a real author statement. Its inherently limited information, based on the perspective of the characters the narratives centered upon.

Kamachi takes advantage of that all the time to mislead the readers about the nature of powers used in the series. We're mislead along with the characters.

That passage is no different.


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## Saitomaru (Aug 30, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> Juubito isn't continent level (at least quantifiably, the giant BB could be, but no way to calc it reliably yet), so the only option he has left is to walk through everything while phased, then do his dimensional BFR
> 
> if that works



Figured I should point this out just in case it wasn't already said: Juubito can't 'phase' anymore


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 30, 2013)

yep, he said he can't "slip through" now


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## lokoxDZz (Aug 30, 2013)

from what people are scaling prime juubi being continent durability,and rikundou likely small planet?


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## Source (Aug 31, 2013)

lokoxDZz said:


> from what people are scaling prime juubi being continent durability,and rikundou likely small planet?



RS's moon creating feat is  but no one sane will be using this in matches until we actually see the feat.

Juubito has nothing to get scaled to continent level (though he could be), since there is only one continent level feat in Naruto, and that is , which he can't get scaled to.


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