# Emiya Shirou vs Erza Scarlet



## GaRbS (Jan 10, 2015)

Location: Einzbern forest.
Starting distance: 10 meters.
Knowledge: It's their 2nd fight. They both know the other is a mage that can summon magical weaponry.
Restriction: None.
Character version: Composite Shirou and strongest version of Erza.
Bloodlust: On
CIS/PIS: Off.
Speed it's not equalized.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 10, 2015)

What kind of feats does Erza have?


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 10, 2015)

Shh

I'm in the middle of barely caring enough about a match to post


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jan 10, 2015)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> What kind of feats does Erza have?



I'm behind on FT, but I think she has triple digit kilotons and she's low-ish hypersonic (just above or below mach 10 or so).


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 10, 2015)

I'm the most caring, clearly


----------



## Crimson King (Jan 10, 2015)

Unlimited Gae Bolg to the Face Works


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 10, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> I'm behind on FT, but I think she has triple digit kilotons and she's low-ish hypersonic (just above or below mach 10 or so).



If that's the story... Shirou kind of wrecks her in just about any given route

Fate?  Caliburn

UBW?  So much to choose from

HF?  NLBW, Rho Aias, etc

He has all the tools to win, and more than enough speed to compete

Erza could theoretically kill him, but only if she gets an attack off that connects


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 10, 2015)

I'm bored and I possess knowledge, why not spread it dude?


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 10, 2015)

>Composite
>Avalon 
>Caliburn
>Reality Marble

So many options for murder

So little time


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 10, 2015)

erza can't compete with shirou's NP on top of being slightly slower than him


----------



## GaRbS (Jan 10, 2015)

Shirou's combat speed may be faster than Erza's, but remember that his movement speed it's just 50 km/h. So Shirou can't blitz her unless she goes into melee range.


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 10, 2015)

You confuse cobat speed with travel speed.
Shirou in combat did things like speedblitzing Dark Berserker, passing 10 meters faster than he had swung down his sword.
He did this while conjuring up Nine Lives and then parried Berserker's attack.
Besides, I don't think it's all that relevant here.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 10, 2015)

> Shirou's combat speed may be faster than Erza's, but remember that his movement speed it's just 50 km/h. So Shirou can't blitz her unless she goes into melee range.



So....where the fight is going to take place since Erza favors melee above ranged combat?

and where shirou can just skewer her with infinite swords?


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 10, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> >Composite
> >Avalon
> >Caliburn
> >Reality Marble
> ...



Erza wins because Shirou can't decide which to use 

/thread


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 10, 2015)

His brain explodes trying to figure out the best way to murder her 

Bad End followed by Tiger Dojo segment


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 10, 2015)

Taiga >>> Fairy Fail 

canon


----------



## GaRbS (Jan 10, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> You confuse cobat speed with travel speed.
> Shirou in combat did things like speedblitzing Dark Berserker, passing 10 meters faster than he had swung down his sword.
> He did this while conjuring up Nine Lives and then parried Berserker's attack.
> Besides, I don't think it's all that relevant here.


Actually, Shirou didn't move at all besides executing NLBW. It was Berserker who crossed that distance, Shirou just attacked him before Berserker finishied his blow.


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 10, 2015)

I think you're talking about a whole different scene.
Especially since you say Nine Lives Blade Works which happened about several minutes after this.


----------



## GaRbS (Jan 10, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> I think you're talking about a whole different scene.
> Especially since you say Nine Lives Blade Works which happened about several minutes after this.


Then of what scene exactly are you talking about?


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jan 10, 2015)

Emiya Shirou if he has time to trace a weapon could stand a chance but otherwise he gets blitzed from what little I know of FT, his UBW also takes time to set up via incantation and is exclusive to UBW Shirou due to Rin lending prana although Shirou at some point post game would do learn to summon it with his prana and master it within some 10-20 years. Atleast make this Archer the servant version of Shirou.

Fate Shirou has noobish tracing and quite weak
UBW has somewhat better ability, Rin's prana and UBW
HF Shirou has the highest tracing but no UBW and constant pain
Full potential Shirou is around Kiritsugu level Magus killer
Archer is Shirou at Heroic spirit levels but alternate universe Shirou

Archer I can see counted as a separate character like Future Trunks and Chibi Trunks considering the game does as well but you'd have those other Shirous mentioned above to choose from.


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 10, 2015)

Fate Shirou can trace swords he's familiar with during mid-swing of a Servant or before he'd get blasted by Meroach.
UBW Shirou has absolutely no issues with speed.

UBW chant can be also used while the user is busy in battle or behind the cover of Rho Aias.
HF Shirou can momentarily even blitz Servants, having weapons or not.
This version of Shirou can also stop time for a moment and summon Rho Aias just before Excaliblast and Bellerophon would clash.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jan 10, 2015)

willyvereb said:


> Fate Shirou can trace swords he's familiar with during mid-swing of a Servant or before he'd get blasted by Meroach.
> UBW Shirou has absolutely no issues with speed.
> 
> UBW chant can be also used while the user is busy in battle or behind the cover of Rho Aias.
> ...



So Shirou did not admit in Fate he had no business in Servant fights during the Gilgamesh and Saber final Fate day thus leaving them on their own?

Kirei was'nt outclassing Shirou without using any command spells to boost him to servant levels and Shirou did'nt win due to Avalon summoning catching a past his prime Kirei potentially off guard?

Shirou vs Archer in UBW:
Archer on Independent action which may lower his stats a bit
Going for 1- 2 days without a prana source
Thrashing Shirou around
Shirou absorbing knowledge throughout the battle yet still losing
Archer's narrative showing some conflict to want to see Shirou not give up
Archer not attacking after Shirou stabbed him as Shirou noted

And UBW Shirou did not outright say he cannot beat a servant even in his UBW and that Gilgamesh was an exception?

Shirou vs Gilgamesh:
Gilgamesh was toying with Shirou and Rin
He did'nt attack initially giving Shirou time to trace
Did'nt fire all his swords at once but few
Needed Archer to cast Rho Aias initially or twice
Gilgamesh not using omnidirectional projection based swords
Shirou inside UBW saying he cannot beat a servant even there
Shirou mentioning how Gilgamesh was the exception
Gilgamesh not wearing armor
Gilgamesh losing his cool as always
Shirou outright saying he could not allow Gilgamesh to regain composure
UBW allowing for faster sword draw from the ground
Shirou noting that even after cutting Gilgamesh's arm off he could still win

Later on Shirou is powerless when Gilgamesh threatens to drag him down with Enkidu till Archer saves him. I mean he admits that even without his armor and one hand that Gilgamesh could still have a chance to win if he regains composure. Gilgamesh to be fair says "You're stronger than me in this world" which is fine as UBW is the natural enemy of Gate of Bablyon.

I mean Saber outright is scared of Shirou facing a servant till he says that Gilgamesh is a different case and she runs off to save Rin. The initial plan was also Shirou, Saber and Rin vs Gilgamesh as Shirou notes. 

Sure if Shirou gets his UBW out he could win or not(don't know much about FT) but you're assuming he's not going to get blitzed before or that the one sided Rho Aias prevents someone from attacking from the other sides.

Speed is not an issue when Archer a statistically more powerful Shirou, more experienced and more skilled was being speed blitzed by Lancer(to be fair one of the fastest servants) to a point he was a blue blur and struggling even with his Mind's Eye?It's impressive his tactics let him last so long but it's made clear he was not going to win that fight. It's why he baits Lancer into using his Gae Bolg's thrown version so he could put up Rho Aias. 

Archer was'nt struggling to hit Rider when she was under Shinji in CQC?This being a much weaker one than Sakura's Rider?But speed is not an issue to Shirou right?Fate Shirou was'nt horribly outclassed by her as well?UBW Shirou is'nt that much above Fate Shirou in stats, he has better tracing plus Rin's prana and can call out UBW.

Berserker:
He was blind so Shirou had time to trace
Berserker notices only after sensing the tracing
Shirou uses Berserker's Axe club for NLBW
Shirou's later blow is still blocked
Shirou admit he was going to die from the hit
Berserker stops/hesitates because he hears Illya
Shirou deals the death blow

The Saber fight in the bad ending I'll give but that was when he had traced a sword because she allowed it. The other fight is with Sakura Rider, his contribution being the Rho Aius, to be fair he does trace it AFTER Dark Saber fires her Dark Excalibur but Dark Saber is more powerful than Rin Saber whose more powerful than Kiritsugu Saber whose stronger than Shirou Saber. You're not going to claim Shirou operates at top tier servant level when a dying Kirei Kotomine was kicking his ass in the same route?

Kirei
-Both was on the verge of dying
-Kirei thrashes Shirou for most of the fight
-Shirou's metallic skin hurts Kirei but he still thrashes
-Shirou gets one or three hits in
-Kirei's dies as he's about to finish Shirou off
-Shirou wins

Archer in F/HA: This is technically Avenger being Shirou in loop but he copies Shirou's data so
-Hrunting needing 45 second charge time
-Saber by his side
-Use of command seal to boost Saber
-Archer going for Saber then switching to Shirou
-Shirou tracing Rho Aius
-Archer cut down by Saber

You'll note that he's support here for Saber which works well as shown with Rider or Saber in Fate. 

To say nothing of the fact that for 10+ years all interviews with Word of god have been consistent on the whole Servant>Shirou aspect. Nasu changes his mind a lot but he has not changed his mind on Shirou being below servant level.

It takes characters like Ciel, Bazett Prime and such just to statistically fight defensively before losing to an average Servant barring their H4X like Fraga or such. Shirou is outright stated to not even be at their level. Even Kirei Prime is not Ciel level considering she outranks him in Church and there are stronger people in Church than Kirei although how he took out Bazett is unknown.

To be fair to Shirou the likes of Lancer, Rider, Saber, Berserker, Gilgamesh in FSN are not average servants(especially Gilgamesh whose Gate of Babylon means no Servant will win in HA/Zero/FSN continuity) but it's made clear by Shirou himself and word of god he cannot match a servant and those instances he has, required some special circumstances.

If you want to say that Shirou with traced weaponary or UBW already out could win this thread, that's fine but if Erza is even mach 1 or mach 2, she will speedblitz him. I don't know where she compares to Servants outside her losing fights to Archer here but considering FT has been getting feats and stuff I'd assume Erza is much stronger than Shirou atleast unless they are really weak superhumans(Twilight levels).

Rho Aius= one sided barrier, the other sides are open and exposed so unless we're talking incredible retard levels of character(possible), going for the exposed sides is good strategy.


----------



## GaRbS (Jan 10, 2015)

> Fate Shirou can trace swords he's familiar with during mid-swing of a Servant


No, Caliburn was still being made while it blocked Berserker's attacks.


> or before he'd get blasted by Meroach.


No, Gilgamesh didn't attack Shirou until he finished projecting Caliburn. And he first used a random sword against Shirou before he pulled out Merodach.
Also, Fate Shirou takes at least 1 minute to project Caliburn, that's why he couldn't use it against Kirei.


> UBW Shirou has absolutely no issues with speed.


Also no, Shirou was being owned by a Gilgamesh who was just playing with him.
Shirou couldn't even project correctly due to the  pression of Gilgamesh' s attacks.


> UBW chant can be also used while the user is busy in battle or behind the cover of Rho Aias.


Only the second, neither Archer nor Shirou have been shown to do the first thing.


> HF Shirou can momentarily even blitz Servants, having weapons or not.


When?



> Archer was'nt struggling to hit Rider when she was under Shinji in CQC?This being a much weaker one than Sakura's Rider?


I don't think so. I remember that the novel stated they were equals when Archer faced Sakura's Rider.



> Shirou's later blow is still blocked


None of Shirou's blows were blocked. The problem was that his last blow wouldn't have prevented him from dying from Berserker' s blow even if he was faster than him.



> The Saber fight in the bad ending I'll give but that was when he had traced a sword because she allowed it.


That's true but I must note that Shirou said that the twin swords are the projections with the least burden on him. And he projected Berserker's axe sword in one second. So that's a point for him in contrast with Fate Shirou.



> Even Kirei Prime is not Ciel level


Prime Kirei should be with 10+ Command Spells, and Nasu said he could even defeat Ciel at the time of Fate/Zero.



> If you want to say that Shirou with traced weaponary or UBW already out could win this thread, that's fine but if Erza is even mach 1 or mach 2, she will speedblitz him


He only stands a chance if he already has his projections.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 10, 2015)

erza is high end town+ on both dc/dura and hypersonic on some extext


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 10, 2015)

tl;dl
You try to reason these out but the fact that the main cast had no problems to act against Servants.
Rin could use her magic while Saber was running towards her.
She could dodge Lancer's attacks
And she beat up Caster who could react against Archer's attacks prior.

Kirei is Rider's equal
Kirei could match True Asassin
True Assassin ran circles around Lancer, partially due to his stealth but the difference simply couldn't have been large enough
He can also speedblitz a weakened HF Shirou
He did all this in base while out of practice.

Shirou had these in abdunance, too.
Servants are better, yes.
At certain points faster, yes.
More skilled, yes.
But those are all unquantifiable differences in a cross-universal debate.
Simple as that.


----------



## GaRbS (Jan 10, 2015)

> Rin could use her magic while Saber was running towards her.


Because she was busy slicing Archer. Because a full speed Saber was able to blitz Caster before she casted an spell in HF.





> She could dodge Lancer's attacks


Because he was playing with her, in the same way he did with Shirou.


> And she beat up Caster who could react against Archer's attacks prior.


Caster never reacted to none of Archer's attacks.





> Kirei is Rider's equal


Prove it.





> Kirei could match True Asassin


Kirei was out of breath against an relaxed TA. He didn't match him, just defended a little against him.


----------



## Kazu (Jan 10, 2015)

GaRbS said:


> Caster never reacted to none of Archer's attacks.



At a distance, yes. But she did. 

Archer vs Caster fight. 

Archer charges at caster, she teleports away. 

She dodges Kanshou and bakuya that he threw at her too.


----------



## GaRbS (Jan 10, 2015)

> Archer charges at caster, she teleports away.


She teleported after Archer killed a shadow/illusion of her, so she didn't reacted to his attack.





> She dodges Kanshou and bakuya that he threw at her too.


Because Archer himself warned her =/


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 10, 2015)

Caster threw up her shield before getting hit by GoB







GaRbS said:


> Because she was busy slicing Archer.








VN makes it quite clear she was long finished with Archer when she attacked.


----------



## Kazu (Jan 10, 2015)

GaRbS said:


> She teleported after Archer killed a shadow/illusion of her, so she didn't reacted to his attack.Because Archer himself warned her =/



Archer states that she used teleportation. 

And caster is able to look at them and then react to Kanshou and bakuya


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 10, 2015)

So yeah, this is just the sam ol' "Don't like it so it didn't happen" scenario.
Fact is Shirou and a number of other "ordinary humans" have Servant-like reactions and at times speed.
Simpleas that.
Mind the fact that Einzbern homunculi can have Servant-like stats, too.
Servants might be quite powerful but their feats aren't completely outside the realm of modern magi.


----------



## GaRbS (Jan 10, 2015)

> Archer states that she used teleportation.


Yeah, she teleported after Archer killed an illusion/Shadow of her.





> And caster is able to look at them and then react to Kanshou and bakuya


She didn't look at the swords, just avoided them thanks to Archer's yell.





> So yeah, this is just the sam ol' "Don't like it so it didn't happen" scenario.
> Fact is Shirou and a number of other "ordinary humans" have Servant-like reactions and at times speed.
> Simpleas that.


It's called context, simple as that.


----------



## savior2005 (Jan 10, 2015)

erza wins


*Spoiler*: __ 



because she's erza


----------



## shade0180 (Jan 10, 2015)

> It's called context, simple as that.



 calling out for context.... wow... this kind of argument was thrown out since 2012


----------



## Crimson King (Jan 10, 2015)

GaRbS said:


> *snip*.



Gae Bolg to the face?

Gae Bolg to the face


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2015)

Come on guys you are talking to Garbs he has a Shirou love that let him beat Dr strange prime with rule breaker.


----------



## Crimson King (Jan 11, 2015)

Reply due to popular demand

Composite Shirou means heh as access to Archer's arm as well as a good prana source.

He can use Gae Bolg due to having both seen it and it being in Archer's memories. With that, he can trace Gae Bolg and fire them off for an easy win.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 11, 2015)

Broken Phantasm Instagib Gae Bolg


----------



## ShadowReaper (Jan 11, 2015)

Shirou has better plot armor, so he wins.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 11, 2015)

> Shirou>Faily tail.


not really...
he is less shit,tho


----------



## Snoozles (Jan 11, 2015)

Somehow Dark!Berserker crossing 30 meters in 3 seconds is turned into Shirou being able to blitz hypersonic servants...



> There's about thirty meters to the black giant.
> It'll take him less than three seconds to close this distance.
> Therefore.
> The outcome of this battle will be decided in the next three seconds.



Getting nine hits on this speedster before he can attack is clearly a feat for the ages.

An honest evaluation of the feat would get you somewhere in the transonic to supersonic range without calc stacking.

That being said, I doubt FT's calcs are any better.


----------



## Qinglong (Jan 11, 2015)

I swear I see different people regurgitating the same shot down arguments about the same feat


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 11, 2015)

Snoozles said:


> Somehow Dark!Berserker crossing 30 meters in 3 seconds is turned into Shirou being able to blitz hypersonic servants...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lol nope

we got a safe low end for berserk strike (sonic speed) on the same scene 


> mach 38.004


calc stacking would make this shit high end triple digits mach


----------



## Regicide (Jan 11, 2015)

Are we really taking shit like that at face value when Nasu has no sense of scale? Take  shit for example.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> It is too late now.
> 
> The werewolf exudes an air of dominance.
> 
> ...





Yet, in the same scene, Lugh's movement is described as being too fast to perceive.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> "Prepare to die, you....!"
> 
> The werewolf murmured with malice and delight.
> 
> ...





..You're not going to be moving faster than what a human being can perceive at 20 m/s.


----------



## Regicide (Jan 11, 2015)

10 m/s is probably relativistic in Nasuland or something.

Ignore the retarded timeframe we're given and just look at the fact that Berserker is noted as swinging his sword at sound speed.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 11, 2015)

Regicide said:


> 10 m/s is probably relativistic in Nasuland or something.
> 
> Ignore the retarded timeframe we're given and just look at the fact that Berserker is noted as swinging his sword at sound speed.


wouldn't this make the timeframe lower and the speed bigger?


----------



## Regicide (Jan 11, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> wouldn't this make the timeframe lower and the speed bigger?


Yes, but I'm saying that makes more sense than thinking Berserker is moving at 10 m/s during that scene.

Not that it even really matters, because running speed =/= arm speed.


----------



## Snoozles (Jan 11, 2015)

Are we really going to take flowery language at face value?

"Disappeared from view", "speed of sound", "speed of light". Unless explicitly shown (moving as fast as a bullet), actual lasers, etc. it's just empty superlatives as far as I'm concerned.

I know how this forum works. Ignore everything that could possibly lower the value of the calc. If the numbers are nice use the numbers. If the flowerly superlatives are nice use the flowerly superlatives.

Personally, I don't buy it. In a novel, I'll take the hard numbers. Berserker was moving at roughly 10m/s. It's consistent with the speeds described earlier in the scene (a bit slower but consistent.)

I'll believe that Archer's arrows cross 4km in a second because that's what the author wrote. Or should we write that off too? It's a hard number given by the author. Can't be trusted.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 11, 2015)

Snoozles said:


> Are we really going to take flowery language at face value?
> 
> "Disappeared from view", "speed of sound", "speed of light". Unless explicitly shown (moving as fast as a bullet), actual lasers, etc. it's just empty superlatives as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> ...


>Speed of sound statement=flowery language
>implying we don't low ball the hell out of our calcs
>implying berserk travel speed has jackish to do with his reactions
10/10 logic right theere


----------



## Regicide (Jan 11, 2015)

Snoozles said:


> Are we really going to take flowery language at face value?


You can write that off as being flowery language, the narration is pretty explicit in that Mahoyo scene.

Berserker's only being marginally less so.


Snoozles said:


> "Disappeared from view", "speed of sound", "speed of light". Unless explicitly shown (moving as fast as a bullet), actual lasers, etc. it's just empty superlatives as far as I'm concerned.


That's nice, shame it means jack all around here.

We do give this kind of shit its fair share of scrutiny. Just look at any "Does this count as lightspeed?" debate. But we don't throw shit out without reason just because we're not given something to compare speed to.


Snoozles said:


> In a novel, I'll take the hard numbers.


And the hard numbers in fiction can be just as nonsensical as the descriptions you're taking as invalid.


----------



## AliceKumo (Jan 11, 2015)

Dat Nasu derailment is happening.


But it's really stupid right now.... long established speed feats are being questioned.... by really stupid logic. 
Yeah, Erza gets murdered one way or another.


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2015)

A important point is not all Shitou are equal, and each scenario has access to different powers, and please don't bring the crap of "Super Shitou" that Garbs love to argue.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 11, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Are we really taking shit like that at face value when Nasu has no sense of scale? Take  shit for example.
> 
> 
> Yet, in the same scene, Lugh's movement is described as being too fast to perceive.
> ...



That's flavor text genius

Are we gonna start criticizing the minute Shirou going god speed with NLBW because the text says that?

All that really says is that Beowulf moving is just a blur 

>B-but muh human

1 human being practically superhuman to the point that he fucks up phantasmal beasts when he's nerfed and the other ones being Magi?

The Magis in question being Aoko Aozaki and Touko?

If we wanna start going for semantics?


----------



## GaRbS (Jan 11, 2015)

> A important point is not all Shitou are equal, and each scenario has access to different powers, and please don't bring the crap of "Super Shitou" that Garbs love to argue.


It seems to be accepted here in this forum, if you don't like it that's your problem. Nobody's forcing you to discuss.


----------



## Regicide (Jan 11, 2015)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> snip


I'm saying the numbers are retarded and that we shouldn't use them as evidence for Servants or whatever other characters in Nasuverse not being hypersonic.

Not that he isn't moving faster than the eye can see.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 11, 2015)

Regicide said:


> I'm saying the numbers are retarded and that we shouldn't use them as evidence for Servants or whatever other characters in Nasuverse not being hypersonic.
> 
> Not that he isn't moving faster than the eye can see.



Oh no, Beowulf's way more bullshit than what's written

In fact you'd be nerfing him if you started calcing based on what was written

Because a phantasmal beast on Beowulf's level being slow would be retarded

>Being a relative Nature Spirit along the lines of Arcueid
>goes around fighting Dead Apostle Ancestors


----------



## Regicide (Jan 11, 2015)

Yeah.

Suppose that's what powerscaling is for, though.


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2015)

Witch of the holy night power is really inconsistent with most of the Nasuverse, so i don't think try to power scale mages to Aozaki sisters or Alice is fair.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 11, 2015)

They're in a league of their own anyway compared to normal Magi

Especially Ms. I don't give a darn about time Aozaki


----------



## Haro (Jan 11, 2015)

Ah another calc argument I see. Also Didn't Shirous healing Hax get like way better in later novels?


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 11, 2015)

Cool kid said:


> Ah another calc argument I see. Also Didn't Shirous healing Hax get like way better in later novels?


his regeneration isn't _that_ good 
it might even be effective against erza low AOE but sure as hell isn't stopping her from blowing him to pieces if she gets around him (unlikely considering his superior speed and stronger weapons)
he does have Rho aias and avalon dimensional barrier iirc,tho


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2015)

Only with Avalon, and he needs Saber to be close or as his servant, thats why I mention is bad idea to mix Shirous as only Saber scenario Shirou gets Avalon  buff.


----------



## shade0180 (Jan 11, 2015)

Composite version kind of auto give it to him. 

The Shirou used here as stated by the op is a combination of all of his existing character. (So that also  give him access to anything his fate version has)


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2015)

Why I am not surprised, still doesn't give him access to Saber prana which is needed to use Avalon.


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 11, 2015)

Composite shirou has a literal potpuri of ways that he can murder the crap out of erza


----------



## shade0180 (Jan 11, 2015)

> Why I am not surprised, still doesn't give him access to Saber prana which is needed to use Avalon.



er being a composite version would also gives him the same link to Saber he got in Fate version of himself. so yes, he should have access to that prana which is also why we can use the Fate version of Shirou in BD matches without requiring Saber in the vicinity of a match.


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2015)

We did get on a argument that you get the same penalties on Nasu that the environment create (for example) the time alter of Kiritsu still get the penalty of the world trying to correct the time modification. 

So I am under the impression the same limits apply here.


----------



## shade0180 (Jan 11, 2015)

er what that's just plot fucking things up so why would we use it in a battle dome matches..  seriously PIS is off anything that could link to PIS should be shove off when BD matches is being done...


----------



## Xelloss (Jan 11, 2015)

We have always use that, the same way that Gaea will try to crush a RM and this is the cost to maintain the RM. So I don't see a reason to give a free pass here (not like this will affect the outcome of battle).


----------



## shade0180 (Jan 11, 2015)

Why would you use something like that when it is an obvious PIS...


----------



## BloodTempest (Jan 11, 2015)

The cost of a spell is PIS?


----------



## shade0180 (Jan 11, 2015)

Yes, Unless the value is a definite number... the cost is PIS.

we put a maximum number of uses to how many times they have shown to be able to use it though. but seriously how do you calculate mana/stamina and other shit without getting a definite value. the answer is you don't...


----------



## BloodTempest (Jan 11, 2015)

I think that it's defined pretty well in the novels.

Fate/Zero: Kiritsugu uses Time Alter, damages his body depending on the degree that he alters it.

Fate/Stay Night: Shirou uses Unlimited Blade Works, costs prana to maintain.

That's just simple mechanics in each spell isn't it? Kiritsugu casts his spell from hitpoints and Shirou's constantly drains his MP.


----------



## shade0180 (Jan 11, 2015)

Which has a value of what?  It's like using MP in a game, there are cases of cinematic vs gameplay (Lv 20 character who does not have access to the spell nor mana for it but can be seen using it in a cinematic in the story).... we don't have a definite value for the cost which suggest PIS.


----------



## BloodTempest (Jan 11, 2015)

> A piercing pain suddenly invaded his entire body. With a moan, Kiritsugu stumbled. His body had reached its limit. The continuous activation of Innate Time Control had ruptured blood vessels all over his body, and the bones in his limbs also began to fracture due to having borne an unimaginable burden.



That would be from Kiritsugu's Double Accel.



> *Kiritsugu’s arms, legs, and heart let out sad screams of pain with every swing of the dagger*. The adverse effect of Innate Time Control *mercilessly tore apart Kiritsugu’s flesh*, and Avalon fixed the damage, momentarily. Regardless of how Saber herself had used it, the sheath was only ‘healing’ Kiritsugu while in his body- it could not prevent him from taking damage, it was simply healing the damage he took. *The excruciating pain of torn tendons and snapped bones tormented Kiritsugu’s nerves every single moment*.
> Even so, Kiritsugu did not hesitate. There was no need to hesitate. As long as his body could still move, he didn’t need to pay any attention to what he was feeling. Kiritsugu bet everything on the effects of the holy sword's sheath, and continued to accelerate against the agony.
> “Whoaaaaaaaaa!!”
> Kiritsugu’s body died and was reborn. He shrieked in agony as he sliced at the enemy before him with the dagger. His blood vessels, endlessly repeating a cycle of rupture and repair, shed sanguineous mists with every movement.
> ...



Triple Accel.



> “Time Alter: Square Accel!”
> The explosive pain boiled into every part of his senses.



Not so clear for Square Accel, but I think that the rest are pretty well defined.

Got nothing for Unlimited Blade Works though.


----------



## shade0180 (Jan 11, 2015)

and that still doesn't answer the limit.  

So after getting boiled how long can he last
how much energy can he exert in the fight.
how much damage could he take
how much speed did he lose
how much concentration did he need..


and so on

the only definite number in that is he can fight up to 4th accel..


----------



## BloodTempest (Jan 11, 2015)

The only reason he's going on at all is Avalon, how long can you keep running and shooting when your bones are fracturing themselves anyway?


----------



## shade0180 (Jan 11, 2015)

Depends on the plot.  he'd be marathoning  for a whole week if the plot wants him to do it. but seriously we have no answer for that. it's a short time probably less than a few minutes to an hour at most..


----------



## BloodTempest (Jan 11, 2015)

Eh, alright. We've been derailing the thread for a while now, let's just end this discussion.


----------



## Sygurgh (Jan 12, 2015)

Did I just see someone arguing for ≈ 10 meters per second Servants? Shirou is a better Erza except for strength and durability, but these parameters lose much of their importance when NPs have greater destructivity.


----------



## BreakFlame (Jan 12, 2015)

I feel like this should be UBW Shiro instead of Composite. The sheer variety of powers and feats, not to mention most of his route specific abilities would make the others far stronger than normal, makes it hard to get a fix on how strong he really is.

I mean, he may have had luck/arrogant stupidity on his side, but this is the guy who pulled out wins on Dark Saber and Gilgamesh. Composite Shiro might be able to do that even without plot armor.

I don't know, I'm not real familiar with Erza's basic stats. But this seems kind of lopsided to me.


----------



## GaRbS (Jan 13, 2015)

> Why I am not surprised, still doesn't give him access to Saber prana which is needed to use Avalon.


No, what is necessary to project Avalon it's the contract with Saber, not her prana. Her prana is for the healing of the Avalon inside his body.





> er being a composite version would also gives him the same link to Saber he got in Fate version of himself. so yes, he should have access to that prana which is also why we can use the Fate version of Shirou in BD matches without requiring Saber in the vicinity of a match


Also this.


----------

