# Itachi vs. Tsunade (taijutsu fight)



## trance (Feb 24, 2015)

Location: Sannin Battleground

Intel: Full

Mindset: Bloodlusted

Distance: 50m

Rules: Itachi has V2 Ei level speed.


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## DavyChan (Feb 24, 2015)

What? 
You're pitting up someone against someone who specializes in taijutsu and is close enough to Itachi on her own to be at least mid diffed by Itachi in a regular fight. 

Anyway,
Tsunade low diff - stomp

Better question would have been Sakura (Beginning of Shippuden) vs this itachi


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## Nikushimi (Feb 24, 2015)

Itachi runs around Tsunade and lands hits on her all day while she can't lay a finger on him.

In the end, he's exhausted and she's bloody and pissed. The best option would be to Shunshin the fuck up outta there while he's still got the juice for it.


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## trance (Feb 24, 2015)

Tsunade ain't got her regeneration. With his superhuman strength + V2 Ei's insta-blitz level speed, he can easily cut her head off.


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## Ghost (Feb 24, 2015)

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I remember Tsunade is not really that much more durable than your average high level ninja. Sure she has some amazing endurance, stamina and pain tolerance, but without her regeneration she is not taking hits that well. Also nothing is stopping the former captain of an assassination squad from just plucking her eyes out. 



dpwater25 said:


> You're pitting up someone against someone who specializes in taijutsu


I hope you're not implying that Tsunade is better than Itachi at Taijutsu, because I don't remember any impressive Taijutsu skill feats from Tsunade.



> Anyway,
> Tsunade low diff - stomp



Itachi is a lot faster, smarter and has precognition, how exactly is Tsunade stomping him? Super strength is useless if she can't land a single hit. 


> Better question would have been Sakura (Beginning of Shippuden) vs this itachi


Because Itachi can just blitz and snap her neck.


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## Veracity (Feb 24, 2015)

^^Tf?What ? Like literally your had debates with several posters regarding Tsuandes Durability many upon many times. Yes I'm going to correct you cause you are dead wrong. Tsunade is more durable then most ninja as she comes out a justu that turns ninja into meat chunks with only minor cuts. She also gets pelted with pointblank Yasaka's and the chakra enhanced blast merely breaks her skin.

And lmaooo at Itachi being better at a taijustu than a Taijustu Master ? Like I know you like Itachi but damn that's just pure wank and degrades Tsuande to the highest point possible. Tsuande is a Sannin level opponent who specializes in taijjstu while Itachi is a Genjusu master. His CQC ability isn't great at all. Having V2 ay speed doesn't make him a good taijustu fighter all of a sudden.


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## TheGreen1 (Feb 24, 2015)

Well V2 Ei level speed is already going to give Itachi the advantage. This is more of a spite thread.


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## Mercurial (Feb 24, 2015)

Itachi would usually be too fast and skilled for Tsunade. If you give him V2 Ei's speed he just blitzes her and puts a kunai between her eyes.


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## DavyChan (Feb 24, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I remember Tsunade is not really that much more durable than your average high level ninja. Sure she has some amazing endurance, stamina and pain tolerance, but without her regeneration she is not taking hits that well. Also nothing is stopping the former captain of an assassination squad from just plucking her eyes out.
> 
> 
> I hope you're not implying that Tsunade is better than Itachi at Taijutsu, because I don't remember any impressive Taijutsu skill feats from Tsunade.
> ...



lol. Stop trolling. Name literally ONE impressive itachi feat that was strictly taijutsu. And uk Tsunade's entire moveset is taijutsu. I know ur trolling. And no Itachi wasn't shown to be fast. Tsunade did however fly at madara. Itachi just zips places via genjutsu.


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## TheGreen1 (Feb 24, 2015)

dpwater25 said:


> lol. Stop trolling. Name literally ONE impressive itachi feat that was strictly taijutsu. And uk Tsunade's entire moveset is taijutsu. I know ur trolling. And no Itachi wasn't shown to be fast. Tsunade did however fly at madara. Itachi just zips places via genjutsu.



The specifics of this thread grant Itachi Ei V2 speed. She's not touching him.


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## Ghost (Feb 24, 2015)

dpwater25 said:


> lol. Stop trolling.


please.


> Name literally ONE impressive itachi feat that was strictly taijutsu.


Beat Hebi Sasuke and Kakashi in CQC, hanged with KCM Naruto and Bee in CQC.


> And uk Tsunade's entire moveset is taijutsu.


Tsunade's move set is op heals and hulk smash. How does that make her any good in Taijutsu? Her skill should be at least Guy level in order to make up for the enormous gap in speed + Itachi's precognition.


> I know ur trolling.


My trolling what?


> And no Itachi wasn't shown to be fast.


Pretty sure OP has given Raikage level speed to Itachi in here, and he doesn't even need it.

*Itachi is able to pressure Killer Bee with his speed* and hang with KCM Naruto in CQC. There are also examples such as him speed blitzing Konoha Jounins.


> Tsunade did however fly at madara. Itachi just zips places via genjutsu.


what


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## LostSelf (Feb 24, 2015)

Nikushimi made the thread, actually.

Itachi cannot kill her without MS.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 24, 2015)

Kunai and kicks are doing very little to Tsunade. If he tries to grapple her and break her neck, she kills him in the interim. Itachi would exhaust himself before he killed Tsunade with generic blunt force trauma and ninja tools.

That said, without regeneration there is a very low chance that Tsunade's landing a hit on him when he moves as fast as V2 Ei. So he speeds around, kicking and slashing at Tsunade and seeing very little results. He collapses from exhaustion after several hours of fighting, so Tsunade wins, albeit she will be tired and injured.​​


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## Ersa (Feb 24, 2015)

If he has V2 Ei speed then I don't see how he can't eventually pluck out her eyes with a lucky kunai strike. If we're talking purely taijutsu it'll take a while for him to tire out (same for Tsunade).


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## Bonly (Feb 24, 2015)

Itachi punches and kicks Tsunade god knows how many times for god knows how long and either Itachi gets killed when he tired out or he knocks her out unconscious and I think we all know which of the two is likely to happen more times then not


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 24, 2015)

When were you under the impression Itachi didn't have V2 shunshin speed?


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 24, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Itachi would usually be too fast and skilled for Tsunade. If you give him V2 Ei's speed he just blitzes her and puts a kunai between her eyes.



 This. V2 isn't even needed if he can react efficiently against SM Kabuto in CQC. V2 Level of Speed is just overkill.

 And whether or not KCM Naruto was using full effort against Itachi is irrelevant as Base Bee was clearly trying and Itachi was effortlessly dodging him while focusing on KCM Naruto.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 24, 2015)

Trance said:


> Tsunade ain't got her regeneration. With his superhuman strength + V2 Ei's insta-blitz level speed, he can easily cut her head off.



If he's not careful with that kind of speed, he could end up breaking his ankle like an inexperienced KCM Naruto did, tho.

Then he'd really be in trouble.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 24, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> If he's not careful with that kind of speed, he could end up breaking his ankle like an * inexperienced *KCM Naruto did, tho.
> 
> Then he'd really be in trouble.



 Itachi's never inexperienced tho.


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## Veracity (Feb 25, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> This. V2 isn't even needed if he can react efficiently against SM Kabuto in CQC. V2 Level of Speed is just overkill.
> 
> And whether or not KCM Naruto was using full effort against Itachi is irrelevant as Base Bee was clearly trying and Itachi was effortlessly dodging him while focusing on KCM Naruto.



Itachi was hardly even focusing on KCM Naruto at that point... He didn't cast his Justu until he was completely out of close quarter, so to assume his attention was split between killer bee and Naruto at that time is quite false, and even if it was ; its as impacting as realizing there is a crowd around you as you fight . 
& being able to not get killed against base bee for a single panel isn't that impressive. Bee overwhelms with time basically. 

For reference, a physically inferior Sasuke( to Hebi) was able to avoid being slaughtered by base bee for  a longer time frame: He placed it on Obito's back after being torn to ribbons.
He placed it on Obito's back after being torn to ribbons.

So I don't buy what Itachi did being all that important to be honest as Hebi Sasuke without Raiton flow would get dominated in CQC against Tsuande .


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## Jad (Feb 25, 2015)

To be fair. Itachi has been stated in the databook as being very skilled in taijutsu, which is more than what is stated of Tsunade in taijutsu. Plus he has better feats of taijutsu fights against better opponents in the manga than Tsunade's part 1 kabuto battle. I think Tsunade specialises in close quarter combat because she combines her strength with her byakugo, but not a taijutsu master. If she was a master in taijutsu I'm sure there would be at least a comment on it somewhere or elaborated. I think there is a difference in being a Master of taijutsu and just regularly using it in combat with other ninjutsu.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 25, 2015)

Itachi uses one shunshin and dies from chakra exhaustion.


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## Ghost (Feb 25, 2015)

He goes blind before that.


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 25, 2015)

Im not sure what's the point of giving itachi v2 speed, he's already much faster then tsunade and has 3 tomoe to boot so that really doesn't change anything.


Only way itachi is winning is if you give him a sword or multiple kunai, in a straight up taijutsu clash, he does nothing but make tsunade mad for a few hours, once he runs out of juice she will knock his block off.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 25, 2015)

Jad said:


> To be fair. Itachi has been stated in the databook as being very skilled in taijutsu, which is more than what is stated of Tsunade in taijutsu. Plus he has better feats of taijutsu fights against better opponents in the manga than Tsunade's part 1 kabuto battle. I think Tsunade specialises in close quarter combat because she combines her strength with her byakugo, but not a taijutsu master. If she was a master in taijutsu I'm sure there would be at least a comment on it somewhere or elaborated. I think there is a difference in being a Master of taijutsu and just regularly using it in combat with other ninjutsu.



The Databook gave her a 5 in taijutsu. There's some clarification for you.

And anyway, a drunken, rusty Tsunade was toying around with Part I Naruto in a taijutsu skirmish. At that point it was clear that she was leagues above him in skill, and the databook gave him a 2/5 in taijutsu at that point in the manga. 2/5 may not be a very high level of skill, but it at least demonstrates that Tsunade was far above that level.

This was the first time we ever saw Tsunade in a battle situation too, and her taijutsu _skill_ was one of the two things Kishimoto showed off, the other being her super strength. What does that tell you?

Her fight against Kabuto displayed that a high enough taijutsu ability can overcome raw speed. Kabuto was the faster opponent, but he couldn't dominate her in a taijutsu battle without immobilising her first. 

By Part II Sakura's taijutsu skill goes up to a 3/5 in the Databook. And yet we know that Tsunade is still far above her student at that point.

Later on we see her smashing Susano'o clones into the ground in close combat, and using Madara's Susano'o sword offensively to nearly impale him. 

I don't see why Tsunade's taijutsu expertise is so difficult to understand. It's evidently been alluded to or even explicitly shown on multiple occasions.​​


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 25, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> The Databook gave her a 5 in taijutsu. There's some clarification for you.
> 
> And anyway, a drunken, rusty Tsunade was toying around with Part I Naruto in a taijutsu skirmish. At that point it was clear that she was leagues above him in skill, and the databook gave him a 2/5 in taijutsu at that point in the manga. 2/5 may not be a very high level of skill, but it at least demonstrates that Tsunade was far above that level.
> 
> ...



She's very verse in taijutsu, but it does little to no good against a opponent who is just as good, is very very faster then her and part 1 kabuto for that matter, and has 3 tomoe sharingon just for the lolz.

Tsunade wins here but more due to her durable then to her actual taijutsu skill


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## Jad (Feb 25, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> The Databook gave her a 5 in taijutsu. There's some clarification for you.
> 
> And anyway, a drunken, rusty Tsunade was toying around with Part I Naruto in a taijutsu skirmish. At that point it was clear that she was leagues above him in skill, and the databook gave him a 2/5 in taijutsu at that point in the manga. 2/5 may not be a very high level of skill, but it at least demonstrates that Tsunade was far above that level.
> 
> ...



Even if with the 5, she still doesn't register as a Taijutsu master in any sense of the word. I said she specializes in close quarters combat with her regeneration, but in terms of pure skill she was no-sold by Kishimoto in that department. I mean the lack of techniques in her Taijutsu repertoire is also another blow. Her best Taijutsu feats are back in the Part-1 Kabuto stage. And for her one on panel feat of punching a Sasuno clone, that was indeed accompanied by two large blades in her stomach. I'd be more impressed if she did that without them in there. Plus the scene of Tsunade using Madara's blade against him, how was that a good Taijutsu feat? She basically just tried to surprise him with a straight forward attack (in the literal sense).

At least with Itachi you see his many close quarter engagements with Part-2 Kakashi, KCM Naruto, his deflection of Kirabi's blades, and Hebi Sasuke fight. All opponents that are so vastly superior to Part-1 Kabuto, On top of that, you keep telling me she was toying with Kabuto or something along the lines. She looked like she was very much trying against him. She was huffing and puffing before Kabuto even popped a soldier pill and couldn't land any hits based on the craters left.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 25, 2015)

Bkprince33 said:


> She's very verse in taijutsu, but it does little to no good against a opponent who is just as good, is very very faster then her and part 1 kabuto for that matter, and has 3 tomoe sharingon just for the lolz.
> 
> Tsunade wins here but more due to her durable then to her actual taijutsu skill



Agreed. Although Itachi isn't quite as good at taijutsu as Tsunade is. He has a 4.5, while she has a full 5/5.



Jad said:


> Even if with the 5, she still doesn't register as a Taijutsu master in any sense of the word. I said she specializes in close quarters combat with her regeneration, but in terms of pure skill she was no-sold by Kishimoto in that department.



If you're willing to overlook canon material in favour of your own personal opinion, then go ahead. But please don't use it in an actual discussion as a means to overrule what the author has explicitly stated. 



> I mean the lack of techniques in her Taijutsu repertoire is also another blow.



Tsunade has shown a wide variety of taijutsu manoeuvres. Just because they aren't all given names, it should in no way detract from her versatility or skill in unarmed combat. 



> Her best Taijutsu feats are back in the Part-1 Kabuto stage.



So what? That was the only time in the entire manga that Tsunade has had the _opportunity_ to exclusively use taijutsu and little else. Against Madara it was impossible to use just taijutsu and get any results (see Ei's repeated failure to do anything against him), against Pein she was too exhausted to do anything, and against Orochimaru she was using taijutsu until his regeneration started to counter-act it. 



> And for her one on panel feat of punching a Sasuno clone, that was indeed accompanied by two large blades in her stomach.



Yes, but there's no evidence to guarantee that the Susano'o clone she hit was the one that stabbed her. After all, five clones were sent after Tsunade and there is only one within close proximity of her. Furthermore, each clone only carries one sword. Its possible that she was hit by two other clones and then engaged combat with a third ie. the one she hit. 

Even if that isn't the case, Madara is a much faster opponent than she is, possessing the Mangekyou Sharingan to predict her attacks and probably a 5/5 in taijutsu as well. With all those advantages, her ability to land a hit on him at all is really nothing to turn your nose up at. 



> I'd be more impressed if she did that without them in there.



It was five against one. No taijutsu user short of Seven Gated Gai could have inflicted heavy damage to those clones by themselves without sustaining damage. Surely the fact that Tsunade performed that feat _despite_ the grievous injuries is an indication of her skill? 



> Plus the scene of Tsunade using Madara's blade against him, how was that a good Taijutsu feat? She basically just tried to surprise him with a straight forward attack (in the literal sense).



She smashed his weapon in half, swung it around in mid air and aimed it with _precision_ at Madara. Just because the jabbing motion itself was linear it doesn't detract from the skill required to perform that kind of feat. If she was on the ground running at him with a normal blade it would be different, but the fact that she executed this in mid-air with a blade twice her size, and nearly stabbed him, makes it more impressive. 



> At least with Itachi you see his many close quarter engagements with Part-2 Kakashi, KCM Naruto, his deflection of Kirabi's blades, and Hebi Sasuke fight. All opponents that are so vastly superior to Part-1 Kabuto, On top of that, you keep telling me she was toying with Kabuto or something along the lines. She looked like she was very much trying against him. She was huffing and puffing before Kabuto even popped a soldier pill and couldn't land any hits based on the craters left.



Nowhere did I even _imply_ that she was toying with Kabuto.​​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 25, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Itachi uses one shunshin and dies from chakra exhaustion.



I'm not sure if this is a joke about Itachi hate, or a joke about him amping his chakra to bijuu levels for a V2 shunshin.


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## DavyChan (Feb 25, 2015)

TheGreen1 said:


> The specifics of this thread grant Itachi Ei V2 speed. She's not touching him.



I didn't see that.



Saikyou said:


> please.
> 
> Beat Hebi Sasuke and Kakashi in CQC, hanged with KCM Naruto and Bee in CQC.
> 
> ...



I don't recall Naruto hanging out with Itachi unless your referencing Edo Itachi and in that fight nothing really happend so its hardly credible. Neither Sasuke nor Itachi were moving fast back when he fought Hebi Sasuke. Tsunade was shown to have just as good reaction rates (which is the fastest thing he did, not actually speed movement). 

And Tsunade's "hulk smash" is considered Taijutsu. And Tsunade is >>> Gai.

And I don't understand how your confused. Itachi only appears fast by seemingly warping places but he's just using genjutsu or clones to make it look like it's him and then it dissapears and then he is somewhere else (e.g. Sasuke vs Itachi and then Itachi reappears in his seat idle AF). Tsunade has better movement speed. She flew towards Madara. 

*Spoiler*: __


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## Ghost (Feb 25, 2015)

DavyChan said:


> I don't recall Naruto hanging out with Itachi unless your referencing Edo Itachi and in that fight nothing really happend so its hardly credible.


Itachi took on Naruto and Bee at the same time (granted none of them were going all out) and later pressured Bee with his pure speed alone. Bee shat on Taka 1 vs 3.


> Neither Sasuke nor Itachi were moving fast back when he fought Hebi Sasuke.


What? Pretty sure Sasuke was going all out there, and he is much faster than Tsunade.


> Tsunade was shown to have just as good reaction rates (which is the fastest thing he did, not actually speed movement).


Itachi's reactions >>>> Tsunade's. 


> And Tsunade's "hulk smash" is considered Taijutsu. And Tsunade is >>> Gai.


Are you actually saying that Tsunade is more skilled than Guy in Taijutsu?

Tsunade has literally no exceptional skill in the area. 


> And I don't understand how your confused. Itachi only appears fast by seemingly warping places but he's just using genjutsu or clones to make it look like it's him and then it dissapears and then he is somewhere else (e.g. Sasuke vs Itachi and then Itachi reappears in his seat idle AF).


Oh my fucking lord. Read Itachi vs Bee and Itachi vs Kabuto. He pressured base Bee and went toe to toe with a perfect Sage. Both of those characters are a lot faster than Tsunade.


> Tsunade has better movement speed.


No she doesn't.


> She flew towards Madara.


How is that impressive at all=


> *Spoiler*: __


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 25, 2015)

> Tsunade has literally no exceptional skill in the area.


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## Ghost (Feb 25, 2015)

That's great. I mean in raw skill. She is definitely dangerous in CQC when completely unrestricted.


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## Veracity (Feb 25, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> That's great. I mean in raw skill. She is definitely dangerous in CQC when completely unrestricted.



That excerpt included taijjstu skill so what are you talking about ?


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## Guybot2 (Feb 25, 2015)

her speed and her reaction as a rusty tsunade vs oro is evident when his manda tried to attack gamta then She lift the huge sword in MID-AIR then process to impale Manda all in the split second... Thats.... FAST for a rusty tsunade..

the Tsunade we saw at the war isnt rusty anymore... she whipped herself back into shape... that mean she went to where she was before she's rusty in part 1..  the fact she was confident in challenge the Ei.. she saw Ei's movement when he tried to blitz naruto.. if she can see his movement then she can see anyone's.. 

the only way for itachi to win is to do the suicide attack but it will be extremely hard..


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 25, 2015)

Tsunade would bash Sick Itachi's brains in, but this version of Sick Itachi is a bit too fast for her to strike.

That being said, is Sick Itachi's physical strength great enough to down someone like Tsunade, who has top tier pain tolerance and vitality even outside of Byakugo?

Doubtful in my opinion. She didn't bat an eye when Kabuto severed multiple tendons and destroyed her chakra network with his medical ninjutsu and she was still maintaining a summon, consciousness and dialogue while split completely in half.

This all pales in comparison to her sustaining multiple wounds from Kusanagi (one of which went directly through her torso) to then clobber Orochimaru in the face before initiating the inferior Yin Seal variant to heal her wounds, as well as coming out of light travel for the most part intact, to land a blow on Madara before healing. 

Sickly Itachi's strikes would probably feel like being hit with a pillow compared to some of the things she's pushed through and walked off, especially considering his only successful taijutsu feat of mention was that of slamming preteen sauce against a wall, which did no damage to him.

Sick Itachi can't fight for long, regardless of this speed boost, which in actuality probably winds him into death even faster because of the stress on a body moving that fast/the possible chakra needed to initiate that shunshin. 100, 200 times he'll have to hit Tsunade before she goes down? I don't know that he's even capable of throwing 100 punches before his heart gives out, let alone landing them all with a sufficient capability of wounding someone like Tsunade.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 25, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> That's great. I mean in raw skill. She is definitely dangerous in CQC when completely unrestricted.



In raw skill she was famed for her taijutsu back during the shinobi war, and this was before she had regeneration.  She was definitely a clan child, and most certainly was taught the taijutsu of the Senju clan, which is good enough to fight the Uchiha clan, all of whome have had pretty refined taijutsu, and were a clan known to be overal superior to clans in all aspects, just like the Senju.  We also know her strength of 1000 wasn't her original strength, because Jiraiya told us she developed that in _response_ to battlefield conditions she encountered during the war, where enemies wouldn't leave her alone to heal her team mates, which further implies that she respected and feared when she didn't have a nuclear fist.  

Afterwards, she developed and institutionalized an evasive style for medics, which she passed to Sakura, and she also developed her ugly juggernaut style to take advantage of her regeneration.  Hints of skill are shown during the conversation with Raikage, where he mentions that she's _starting_ to get sloppy, and she replied that against this opponent, it was the best move.  This was later echo'd when Zetsu admonished Madara for looking sloppy, or ugly, against the bijuu, and he replied that it was okay because he had regeneration.  Furthermore, during the Kabuto fight, Tsunade was fatigued and slowed, in addition to being decades out of practice, so that also wasn't an accurate reflection of her abilities.  She did have a rather elegant exchange with Naruto, when she beat him with one finger without moving while drunk, but that's one of the few scenes where her finesse was highlighted.

Now, you can say that Kishi screwed up by seldom showing Tsunade fight with noticable skill, but we know she was taught her clan's style (Possibly by Hashirama himself, given the timeline and their closeness and his firsthand knowledge of her strength), and we also know that she developed at least two other styles of taijutsu for medics and herself, and that she has a 5.0, and that she was famous for taijutsu during the war before and after she just hit hard, but didn't fissure the earth with her finger.  We also know that 5.0 are only afforded to masters.  Hiruzen was a taijutsu master and god of shinobi who learned everything in Konoha, Guy developed a style that let him fight while looking at his feet, Hiashi is the best at the strongest style in Konoha, and Tsunade as demonstrated has the knowledge base and skill to go beyond their innate discipline.  4.5's are often afforded to people who are very strong in one style, Itachi, Kakashi, and others who are fantastic but not varied innovative, or versed in exceptional styles such as jyuuken.  So reasonably, and logically, and narratively, for what we know to make sense, Tsunade _must_ have a high degree of raw skill, and is _supposed_ to, whether Kishi choose to properly display it on panel or not.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 25, 2015)

Guybot2 said:


> her speed and her reaction as a rusty tsunade vs oro is evident when his manda tried to attack gamta then She lift the huge sword in MID-AIR then process to impale Manda all in the split second... Thats.... FAST for a rusty tsunade..
> 
> the Tsunade we saw at the war isnt rusty anymore... she whipped herself back into shape... that mean she went to where she was before she's rusty in part 1..  the fact she was confident in challenge the Ei.. she saw Ei's movement when he tried to blitz naruto.. if she can see his movement then she can see anyone's..
> 
> the only way for itachi to win is to do the suicide attack but it will be extremely hard..



 That's not necessarily true. Kakashi, Minato, Lee, and even Gaara could track 8th Gate Gai's movements while being drastically slower than them.

 Likewise, Sasuke and Naruto were able to track Juubito yet that doesn't mean they were in his speed tier as shown when Juubito literally blitzed them after blocking both of their moves.

 Being able to see someone's movements is especially useless when your body can't keep up. Even Tsunade tracking Ei is meaningless as Madara stated Tsunade was slower than Ei. Tracking someone's movements is useless, esp. when up against someone who has precognition, higher skill, and a more composed fighting style whereas Tsunade gets reckless which leaves her susceptible to bushin feints (fortunately that's restricted).

 Of course, I agree, Tsunade is certainly proficient in Taijutsu if she can land hits on Susanoo clones and even pressure Madara somewhat.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 25, 2015)

Jad said:


> Even if with the 5, she still doesn't register as a Taijutsu master in any sense of the word. I said she specializes in close quarters combat with her regeneration, but in terms of pure skill she was no-sold by Kishimoto in that department.



Alright.

These are definitions of the word master:



> master 1 |ˈmastər| noun
> a skilled practitioner of a particular art or activity:
> 
> adjective
> having or showing very great skill or proficiency:



This is a scan of the databook explanation of what is measured in the Taijutsu category:


Tsunade has a maximal 5 out of 5, which shouldn't be attributed to her sheer power _or_ her regeneration because those both fall into their own categories of Strength and Ninjutsu respectively (the Taijutsu statistic is determined _independently_ of them), so _how_ is she not a master?



Honestly I'd say she's got a lot more going for her than most even if we look only at the manga.

We saw an inebriated and extremely rusty Tsunade jab a pressure point in Naruto's wrist to make him drop it before she confiscated it herself and used it to flick his headband off and proceed to knock him back to land directly in front of the area it was going to come back down at, and all with one finger. She even jacked his wallet while she was at it and nobody even noticed until she decided to lift it up and bring it to their attention for a bet. She's got some very fine precision skills going on. Even if you go with the "it was Part 1 Naruto" retort I'd like to point out that it being Part 1 Naruto means Kishi could have simply let Tsunade blitz him if he felt like it, or he could have let her rip the ground in two at the beginning, but instead of doing either of those far simpler things he decided to flesh out the exchange. The feat just _implies_ that she's highly skilled in Taijutsu.

Her out-of-shape, fatigued, out-of-practice, blind rage performance against Kabuto and Orochimaru wasn't bad either. She evaded roided up Kabuto's digging Chakra Scalpel attempt when it was mere inches away from her ankle and prepared herself to strike back in the same motion, hit him with a shoulder charge the moment he managed to touch her, and got up and leapt behind him to backhand him into the ground when he pushed his glasses up. At that point Kabuto knew that he wasn't going to stop her and had to resort to abusing her phobia to survive. That she did this while in such terrible shape _is part of the feat_, and I think most people miss that and so try to say she isn't as impressive as she's made out to be; if Tsunade can force an above average Taijutsu fighter on steroids to resort to her phobia while fatigued, decades out-of-shape, decades out-of-practice, and in a blind rage then you can only imagine what kind of a monster she must have to be when she's _actually in shape_ to even be able to afford such large handicaps and perform at that level.

She also drilled anticipation and evasion into _Sakura_ well enough that she was able to fairly quickly catch on to the intricate patterns of Sasori's _finger movements_ and predict his incoming attacks based off of those. Reading into larger bodily movements like punches and kicks can only be easier because those maneuvers are more obvious. That's how Kimimaro approaches fights when he's not in CS2, and Tsunade still eclipses even him in intelligence, knowledge of human body dynamics (as world's greatest medic ninja), and experience- all three of which are relevant factors contributing towards one's analytical and anticipatory ability.


Tsunade's status as a Taijutsu master is a given. It isn't her fault that she only ever battled against gigantic Chakra constructs in Part 2.


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## DavyChan (Feb 25, 2015)

I would continue answering but you guys have taken this to a whole nother level. You've taken it to some Ibiki level shit. With a link to a fucking *Essay*! Impressive, but I just can't. If someone gives me the roundabout I kould though.


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## Jad (Feb 25, 2015)

I will response to your posts Godaime and FlamingRain in full earnest when I have time. However, first with FlamingRain, you pulled a dictionary term of the word Master to try and pass off why Tsunade fits that description. I believe you are wrong to do that in my honest opinion, because Itachi fits that description perfectly, and I don't believe he is a Master of Taijutsu. 

I also believe the way you show off Tsunade's Taijutsu feats is a bit too much, you literally take scenes and stretch them out with colorful words and descriptions. If you honestly took the way you described Tsunade's Taijutsu feats and passed it off to Itachi, you would make her look bad. The fact of the day is, Itachi has more feats against stronger opponents shown with greater skill than Tsunade has ever in her lifetime of this manga. You can say that Tsunade skillfully bemused a genin Naruto by easily snatching his Kunai from out of his hand, but I will just retort with Itachi engaging Killer Bee's Seven sword dance. You may come at me with Tsunade's skilfully ramming her shoulder into Kabuto while sacrificing herself to damage, but I will retort with Itachi blocking Sage Kabuto's attack with Sasuke's Katana or dodging Bee's Samehada. You may find another feat from Tsunade, but Itachi has an even greater display with a better opponent and usually without taking a hit in Taijutsu.

Not to confuse anyone, but this is a discussion solely based on skill, not really how this match up would end.


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## Ersa (Feb 25, 2015)

I always envisioned Tsunade as more of a tanky brawler and Itachi as the more "skillful" and nimble fighter. Do remember the taijutsu stat includes knowledge of taijutsu and Tsunade may possess more knowledge which may contribute 0.5 difference in their scores.

It is a little skewed since Itachi has fought more skillful opponents like Killer B, SM Kabuto, KCM Naruto while Tsunade has less notable opponents like Part I Naruto and Kabuto but it's what we have to work with.

I don't see how it has too much bearing on the match itself really, pure taijutsu alone Tsunade should win cause Itachi can't put her down before she gets a lucky blow in.


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## Rocky (Feb 26, 2015)

Skill is ambiguous in definition. If Tusande possesses more knowledge of boxing and grappling maneuvers than Itachi does, and also possesses the necessary quickness and agility to apply them in actual combat...wouldn't she be considered more "skilled" than Itachi? 

Feat-wise, Itachi hasn't shown me anything in hand to hand combat that Tsunade would be incapable of performing. He may be able to fight at a certain _speed_ that she cannot replicate, but in terms of the _specific combat maneuvers he is actually applying_, there isn't a single feat anyone with a 5/5 cannot mimic.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 26, 2015)

It's notable that's Itachi 4.5 taijutsu stat was in the time frame where his sickness was peaking, and that a highly exertive, physical area like taijutsu would have _proficiency_ suffer from debilitating sickness (along with Zetsu-stated speed, and stamina, strength.)

I find it exceedingly unlikely that Itachi lacked knowledge of higher level taijutsu techniques, or the skill/proficiency to use them _if his body weren't breaking down from sickness_. But that's just me.​


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## Veracity (Feb 26, 2015)

I actually want someone to provide any Taijustu related feats that Itachi has accomplished that is impressive in any way cause all I've gotten were vague answers like; Itachi vs Kabuto or Itachi vs KCM Naruto.

The killer bee example also isn't that impressive if you actually notice snag happen and take everything into consideration..


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## Sadgoob (Feb 26, 2015)

It's impossible to prove Itachi's stand-alone proficiency because the 3-tomoe Sharingan provides such astonishing advantage in terms of hand to hand control and anticipation. 

However, given that he had a 4.5 when sick, and has ridiculous amounts of knowledge and talent in general, it'd be a stretch to say he was ignorant/incapable of using lotus techniques, for example.

If it weren't for his body being "eaten up by disease" anyway, and the stated fact that the lotus technique takes an enormous toll on the body... which would thus lower Itachi's proficiency.​


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## Rocky (Feb 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> It's notable that's Itachi 4.5 taijutsu stat was in the time frame where his sickness was peaking, and that a highly exertive, physical area like taijutsu would have _proficiency_ suffer from debilitating sickness (along with Zetsu-stated speed, and stamina, strength.)​



Taijutsu proficiency is mental, because at its roots it is simply knowing which maneuver to perform in response to what your opponent is doing or wants to do. Physically being able to perform said maneuver should be a matter of physical strength and speed, no?

Well, and form depending on your style. However, since Itachi & Tsunade are rather vanilla in their taijutsu style, it shouldn't matter. It isn't like Itachi couldn't move with his illness, so he still should have been able to do everything he's ever shown to be capable of. It'd be different if somebody like B was sick, and his condition affected the extreme balance & coordination necessary to use his unique Kenjutsu style.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 26, 2015)

The most impressive thing Itachi did for me in terms of straight slickness was grapple Kakashi's clone into eye contact.  That looked cool as the 9th circle of hell.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Taijutsu proficiency is mental, because at its roots it is simply knowing which maneuver to perform in response to what your opponent is doing or wants to do. Physically being able to perform said maneuver should be a matter of physical strength and speed, no?
> 
> Well, and form depending on your style.



Form, in the sense that you're performing the right movement in the right situation, yeah. And severe sickness would make it harder to maintain perfect form, although not impossible.

However, we've discussed this before: his ninja-fu is vanilla, but top-tier as vanilla gets. But he almost certainly also has knowledge on elite styles like lotus jutsu, but... lacks the proficiency?

Now from what we've seen of his other physical/bodily trained skills and essentially being the best with seals, his weapons, etc. I seriously doubt he lacks the skill/ability to learn them. 

Just the inability to use those highly stressful, elite techniques due to bodily circumstance. (Kimimaro is the exception due to his bloodline providing constant Tsunade-like regeneration.)​


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## StarWanderer (Feb 26, 2015)

I dont know, maybe Tsunade can withstand Itachi's onslaught and exhauste him, since Itachi's chakra reserves are poor... Maybe Itachi can hit her do death hundreds, thousands of times...


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## Veracity (Feb 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> It's impossible to prove Itachi's stand-alone proficiency because the 3-tomoe Sharingan provides such astonishing advantage in terms of hand to hand control and anticipation.
> 
> However, given that he had a 4.5 when sick, and has ridiculous amounts of knowledge and talent in general, it'd be a stretch to say he was ignorant/incapable of using lotus techniques, for example.
> 
> If it weren't for his body being "eaten up by disease" anyway, and the stated fact that the lotus technique takes an enormous toll on the body... which would thus lower Itachi's proficiency.​



Except that's part of Itachis arsenal and actually enhances the capabilities of what he can actually do in hand to hand combat . The point I'm trying to make is that Itachi hardly even has any impressive feats that involve taijjstu. Some users( jad) say that he is extremely skilled in this regard( enough to put him " above" Tsunade ) yet for proof we only get vague examples.

I think people honestly get confused with what taijustu skill actually is. They think flipping and twirling around makes an individual skilled at taijjstu. Sorry to say but when straight skill is involved , captain America would best Spidey's ass. & Tsunade would murk Itachi just as bad. All this acrobatic skill is sometimes completely unnecessary when throwing hands . 

Which leads me to my second point . Itachi is extremely good at using  his speed to create openings for for Genjustu and Ninjustu( which are restricted) rather than actually being skilled; which often alludes readers into thinking he can outdo someone like Tsuande.

I'm not saying that Itachi isn't skilled in taijustu, but he doesn't come close to Tsuande and that's logical. He had a 4.5 while sick and Tsuande had a 5 while rusty. Tsuande also outclasses him in taijustu hype as well as feats.


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## Rocky (Feb 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> However, we've discussed this before: his ninja-fu is vanilla, but top-tier as vanilla gets. But he almost certainly also has knowledge on elite styles like lotus jutsu, but... lacks the proficiency?
> 
> Now from what we've seen of his other physical/bodily trained skills and essentially being the best with seals, his weapons, etc. I seriously doubt he lacks the skill/ability to learn them.
> 
> Just the inability to use those highly stressful, elite techniques due to bodily circumstance. (Kimimaro is the exception due to his bloodline providing constant Tsunade-like regeneration.)​



I don't think it's fair to say that Kishimoto gave Itachi a 4.5 because his illness inhibited him from using the lotus techniques. Though since it is possible that is what he was thinking, then so be it. That still wouldn't make Itachi Tsunade's superior.

You need to remember that Itachi died at 21. Even accounting for the 20 year break in ninja stuff, Tsunade still had a good 15 years of experience on Itachi, which gave her time to study her chosen fields of combat- Taijutsu & Medical Ninjutsu. Itachi primarily fought with Genjutsu & Ninjutsu, so it makes sense for him to have invested the majority of his time there. It _doesn't_ make much sense for Itachi to have gathered more (or even an equal amount of) knowledge than Tsunade has on all the different things one can do when boxing and grappling with another.

Even if Itachi would have a 5/5 when healthy because his ability to use the lotus techniques had been restored, I wouldn't consider him more skilled than Tsunade. If you were to equate speed, strength, and stamina, would _you_ pick Itachi to beat Tusnade in a taijutsu match based on what we know and what we've seen in the story? Who is more likely to bring something to the table that the other hasn't seen before (in terms of taijutsu)?


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## Alex Payne (Feb 26, 2015)

Tsunade's actual taijutsu showings look like crap. Her most "skill" moment was schooling Naruto with one finger. Yet she is supposed to be extremely skilled and knowledgeable - she went through War without regeneration techs. She invented the whole style around chakra-enhanced strength. She created a special evasion training for medic-nins. As far as pure taijutsu expertise goes she only loses to Gai(and EoS Lee probably) imo. With A and probably B being her  peers. It seems like Kishimoto was simply unable to properly develop her power-based style. Having her take every incoming attack due to regen didn't help either. Lack of fights too. She needed something similar to Gai's nunchaku moment. Too bad her only Part 2 fight was against _Madara_.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Skill is ambiguous in definition. If Tusande possesses more knowledge of boxing and grappling maneuvers than Itachi does, and also possesses the necessary quickness and agility to apply them in actual combat...wouldn't she be considered more "skilled" than Itachi?



 While the first statement is true, Itachi has shown far better quickness and agility feats, allowing him to tango with SM Kabuto who could dodge Sasuke's Susanoo Arrow effortlessly, a feat that displays SM Kabuto's superiority in CQC against anyone Tsunade has ever faced. However, Tsunade's skill mostly stems from her enhanced physical strength and durability which suits her fighting style perfectly as she can take advantage of a strike meant to weaken her and instead, use it as a way to open up her opponent for a deadly strike.

 This definitely makes me reconsider whether or not Itachi can win. Itachi is certainly more reflexive and agile mainly due to Precognition and the fact that he overpowered a Mid-Kage level ninja such as Sasuke in CQC while still being sick and practically blind, but Tsunade's strength and durability allows her to be a threat against Itachi up close. Itachi's main method of countering this is mid-range Katons, Bushin feints, and genjutsu which is unfortunately restricted.



> Feat-wise, Itachi hasn't shown me anything in hand to hand combat that Tsunade would be incapable of performing. He may be able to fight at a certain _speed_ that she cannot replicate, but in terms of the _specific combat maneuvers he is actually applying_, there isn't a single feat anyone with a 5/5 cannot mimic.



 Personally, I wouldn't go as far as to say that. Itachi's feats of holding KCM Naruto back while dodging a Killer Bee striking from behind is certainly better than what Tsunade has shown in CQC along with being able to actually defend himself against Killer Bee's 7 sword fighting style which even brought Taka Sasuke to his knees, the same one who could dodge and strike V1 Raikage. The best feats Tsunade has is charging in recklessly against Madara which left herself susceptible to multiple hits. The only reason Itachi can't really put her down is because of her durability unless ninja tools are allowed.


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## Rocky (Feb 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> While the first statement is true, Itachi has shown far better quickness and agility feats, allowing him to tango with SM Kabuto who could dodge Sasuke's Susanoo Arrow effortlessly, a feat that displays SM Kabuto's superiority in CQC against anyone Tsunade has ever faced. However, Tsunade's skill mostly stems from her enhanced physical strength and durability which suits her fighting style perfectly as she can take advantage of a strike meant to weaken her and instead, use it as a way to open up her opponent for a deadly strike.



Fist off, I'm talking about Taijutsu proficiency separate from speed & strength, which have their own categories in the Databook. This means that Tsunade 5 & Itachi's 4.5 have nothing to do with their respective speed and strength.

Secondly, Itachi's close combat feats against Kabuto include...blocking his chakra scalpel. That doesn't require anything but the ability to react to Kabuto's speed, which Itachi shouldn't have difficulty with considering his tier 5 speed and Sharingan precognition. 

Itachi seemingly keeping up with Killer B would be the best argument to use, but he only did so for less than a panel, which isn't long enough to prove anything. Even an injured Sasuke could keep pace with B before getting spanked.



> This definitely makes me reconsider whether or not Itachi can win. Itachi is certainly more reflexive and agile mainly due to Precognition and the fact that he overpowered a Mid-Kage level ninja such as Sasuke in CQC while still being sick and practically blind, but Tsunade's strength and durability allows her to be a threat against Itachi up close. Itachi's main method of countering this is mid-range Katons, Bushin feints, and genjutsu which is unfortunately restricted.



Itachi is certainly faster than Tsunade, but he can't do anything to her with his bare hands. She is too strong, made evident by emerging from the shredder with only minor wounds and shrugging off Magatama with nothing more than a bruise. 

So he cannot win.



> Personally, I wouldn't go as far as to say that. Itachi's feats of holding KCM Naruto back while dodging a Killer Bee striking from behind is certainly better than what Tsunade has shown in CQC.



No it isn't. Itachi jumped out of the way. Tsunade is also capable of jumping. There is nothing super skillful about it.

Holding Naruto back was impressive, but that's more so a speed and precognition feat than a feat that displays a great deal of taijutsu proficiency. KCM Naruto isn't some Taijutsu guru; he's just very fast. 

If we're just talking about skill, stalemating with Naruto doesn't make Itachi better than Tsunade because Naruto isn't better than Tsunade when we equalize speed and strength.


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## Ersa (Feb 26, 2015)

Tsunade did not have a 5 in taijutsu while rusty.

Her DB score comes from start of Part II where she had started getting back into shape beating the shit out of Sakura and not wandering around the world getting drunk and gambling all the time.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 26, 2015)

Taijutsu score isn't tied to physical condition. See old Sarutobi.


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## trance (Feb 26, 2015)

Based on feats, Tsunade's got a fairly straightforward and predictable fighting style, often utilizing wide sweeping punches or kicks, which doesn't exactly take a taijutsu expert to demonstrate. That being said, what makes her so effective in CQC is her ungodly strength and regeneration - and to a lesser extent, her strong lifeforce and endurance. So, perhaps it's because of those two advantages that she showcases such basic taijutsu moves in combat...not because she can't use more advanced demonstrations but because she doesn't _need_ to.


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## Ghost (Feb 26, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Itachi's chakra reserves are poor...


This shit got old 4 years ago. Itachi's stamina and chakra reserves are far from _poor_.




> Maybe Itachi can hit her do death hundreds, thousands of times...



Pretty sure Tsunade (with healing restricted) can't take hundreds of hits from Itachi.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 26, 2015)

Jad said:


> However, first with FlamingRain, you pulled a dictionary term of the word Master to try and pass off why Tsunade fits that description. I believe you are wrong to do that in my honest opinion.



If not by _definition_ then by what do you _define_ a master in order to try and exclude Tsunade?

Tsunade _maxes out_ in the score measuring what is in those descriptions, Itachi does not, so why should anyone care if you don't consider _Itachi_ a master?



> I also believe the way you show off Tsunade's Taijutsu feats is a bit too much, you literally take scenes and stretch them out with colorful words and descriptions.



Colorful words and descriptions?

That's just how I talk, and I didn't say anything that wasn't true.

My main points were:

*1.)* She isn't necessarily this "tanky brawler" that people are so insistent on picturing her as. Ridiculous strength =/= Hulk.

*2.)* The implication her feats have for her peak performance (i.e.- practicing, in shape, etc.)

You don't apply those Kabuto showings to Tsunade and then say "this is the best she can do". That is canonically false. It'd be just as bad as saying that a healthy Jiraiya might mess up and summon Gamakichi mid-fight. It is just silly.

What you are supposed to do is consider that if the vast majority of the cast were ever to be taken and conditioned to be two decades out of shape, two decades rusty, and in a blind rage they would only do far worse than she did.

_That's_ what prompted Kabuto's _awe_ during the skirmish, because it was kind of the entire point of his plan.

*"She may be retired from the front lines...but what power...//So this is a living legend...?"*​


> If you honestly took the way you described Tsunade's Taijutsu feats and passed it off to Itachi, you would make her look bad.



Well that'd be irrelevant, since I'm just talking about Tsunade's own status as a Taijutsu master, but I don't think so anyways.



> The fact of the day is, Itachi has more feats against stronger opponents shown with greater skill than Tsunade has ever in her lifetime of this manga.



Again irrelevant. I'll address it anyway, though.

You're just trying to fault Tsunade for not demonstrating something that she has not even had the opportunity to demonstrate.

Nobody is going to go up against a flipping _ribcage_ and start busting out a bunch of new fancy moves. Even if she could there would be no point- the energy would be wasted. The same applies to the Susano'o clones; heck, she started tanking stabs from the clones _because_ all the extra moving around was a waste of time compared to just beasting through their attacks, but she only swapped up because she had high-speed regeneration going on at the time, and she didn't _always_ have said regeneration.



> You can say that Tsunade skillfully bemused a genin Naruto by easily snatching his Kunai from out of his hand, but I will just retort with Itachi engaging Killer Bee's Seven sword dance.



?

He was retreating from it, not engaging it.

Even then, Sasuke could try engaging it (didn't work out for him but he tried) when he was still recovering from the fight with Itachi and he only has a 3.5, the same thing Kabuto had before absorbing Orochimaru.



> You may come at me with Tsunade's skilfully ramming her shoulder into Kabuto while sacrificing herself to damage, but I will retort with Itachi blocking Sage Kabuto's attack with Sasuke's Katana or dodging Bee's Samehada.



It was while recovering from being airborne, because Kabuto tapped her the second before she rammed him, but okay.

I don't see why blocking with a sword or evading Samehada is more impressive, though.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 26, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Taijutsu score isn't tied to physical condition. See old Sarutobi.



It's completely reasonable and intuitive that hand-to-hand proficiency would be, in part, dependent on the condition of the body. Being old and being eaten up by disease are not equivalent.

e.g. my grandpa was strong when he was 65. That old-man strength is real, and he'd jog too. But when he got cancer and was deep into chemo two years later, he couldn't open water bottles and could barely hobble around the house.

Plus Hiruzen (and Kimimaro) both may have been 5+ in skill beforehand, just like Itachi was 5+ in speed and sick Itachi was 5.0 and Hebi Sasuke was 4.5 in speed.​


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## Alex Payne (Feb 26, 2015)

This again. Sarutobi had difficulties wielding his weapon of choice. 

Nin/Gen/Tai DB stats aren't tied to physical state. Lee was able to improve his Taijutsu score between fighting Gaara and ending his fight with Kimimaro. And he was physically weakened in SRA which DB2 covered. So simply facing Kimimaro's style was enough to boost his stat due to gained knowledge. Even though that knowledge boost isn't comparable to that general drop in physical stats.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 26, 2015)

Weapons aren't taijutsu, because if they were, Itachi would be up there. And being unable to perfectly swing around a giant metal staff that probably weighs more than the silverback gorilla that transformed into is not the same level of handicap.

You can argue that taijutsu isn't tied to bodily condition, but that's pretty deluded in my opinion, as it's literally an art about using the body as a stand-alone weapon effectively. 

Orochimaru, for example, almost certainly had the maximum amount of knowledge on taijutsu techniques, but he only had a 3.5 in part two. Because his crippled body from losing his arms was too weak to implement the knowledge.​


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## Alex Payne (Feb 26, 2015)

Orochimaru also had 5 in both Ninjutsu and Handseals. Without physical ability to use both properly.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 26, 2015)

Kimimaro's weapon-reliant Tsubaki no Mai, Tessenka no Mai- Tsuru, Tessenka no Mai- Hana, and even Teshi Sendan are labeled as Taijutsu.

As of databook 4 so is Killer Bee's Acrobat:



> Acrobat (荒繰鷺伐刀 (アクロバット), Rough Line Heron Striking Sword (Akurobatto))
> Taijutsu, A-rank, Offensive, Short-range (0–5m)
> User(s): Killer B
> 
> ...



Kenjutsu/Bukijutsu are just specific categories of Taijutsu.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 26, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Orochimaru also had 5 in both Ninjutsu and Handseals. Without physical ability to use both properly.



Yeah, but we saw him use ninjutsu and hand seals against KN4, so that was retconed a little. In contrast, his weakened body was pointed out. Do you think he had sub-4 knowledge about taijutsu? 

Mr. I-will-know-every-jutsu-ever Orochimaru? I don't think so. I think he _knew_ more than Gai and Bee combined, but couldn't implement/practice those jutsu without crumpling to the ground.​


FlamingRain said:


> Kenjutsu/Bukijutsu are just specific categories of Taijutsu.



Good point! I guess it is a factor.​


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## Alex Payne (Feb 26, 2015)

Orochimaru actually didn't use handseals against KN4. All his jutsu were related to body-modification, summons and Kusanagi. 

As for him having 3.5 taijutsu... It is both possible and consistent with his previous showings. You know, when he got instantly trashed by beaten up old Sarutobi in CQC. Who is significantly slower and even physically weaker if go by stats. Orochimaru is interested in _ninjutsu_. Remember his dialogue with Jiraiya? "Ninja is the one who uses ninjutsu. People with potential to use the most of ninjutsu are strongest." Learning how to properly swing nunchakus or spin with 7 swords would be boring to him. When he learned how to transfer and anchor his soul.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 26, 2015)

All these old BD faces posting in one thread. Its almost making me feel nostalgic. 



DavyChan said:


> I would continue answering but you guys have taken this to a whole nother level. You've taken it to some Ibiki level shit. With a link to a fucking *Essay*! Impressive, but I just can't. If someone gives me the roundabout I kould though.



The crux of Suu's primer is a breakdown of Tsunade's close combat skills. It splits her prowess into five factors: Strength, Resilience, Stamina, Taijutsu Skill and Evasive and Anticipatory skill. 

I'm afraid that it would be impossible for me to summarise the information because, quite simply, there is just far too much of it. 

You commented that Tsunade has no taijutsu skill. You would be best reading the section of Suu's essay, ie. factor 5, that disputes your claim. Although various other points made in that essay, even outside of that factor, dispute your claim too.​​


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## Sadgoob (Feb 26, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Orochimaru actually didn't use handseals against KN4. All his jutsu were related to body-modification, summons and Kusanagi.



Maybe, but the author doesn't draw all hand seals out though. That giant wave of snakes, each with a blade coming out of its mouth, for instance, looked more like a jutsu to me.​


Alex Payne said:


> As for him having 3.5 taijutsu... It is both possible and consistent with his previous showings. You know, when he got instantly trashed by beaten up old Sarutobi in CQC.



If memory serves, Orochimaru basically blitzed Hiruzen and put a kunai to his throat at the beginning of the fight. Then stabbed himself and walked away laughing.

So with that level of not-giving-a-fuck, Hiruzen disarming Kusanagi (which Orochimaru can control remotely) isn't proof of anything.​


Alex Payne said:


> Who is significantly slower and even physically weaker if go by stats. Orochimaru is interested in _ninjutsu_. Remember his dialogue with Jiraiya? "Ninja is the one who uses ninjutsu. People with potential to use the most of ninjutsu are strongest." Learning how to properly swing nunchakus or spin with 7 swords would be boring to him. When he learned how to transfer and anchor his soul.



He was clearly disappointed that he couldn't take advantage of Kimimaro's taijutsu-specialized body, and his desire was to learn every jutsu in existence.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 26, 2015)

Trance said:


> Based on feats, Tsunade's got a fairly straightforward and predictable fighting style, often utilizing wide sweeping punches or kicks, which doesn't exactly take a taijutsu expert to demonstrate. That being said, what makes her so effective in CQC is her ungodly strength and regeneration - and to a lesser extent, her strong lifeforce and endurance. So, perhaps it's because of those two advantages that she showcases such basic taijutsu moves in combat...not because she can't use more advanced demonstrations but because she doesn't _need_ to.



Adding on.  Most taijutsu showcases involve two characters giving detailed exchanges. Blocks and parries and counters and smooth choreography.

All of Tsunade's opponents camped in Susano or ran away instead of engaging her, because she'd blow them up if they tried to block or parry or counter or properly engage her.  So she doesn't need it, and never gets to show it.  The few times she got a chance to, she did, so there's that, but those were limited circumstances.


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## Thunder (Feb 26, 2015)

Tsunade and Sakura are never allowed to hit humans with "normal"  durability at full power. The results would be too graphic for this  manga. Just look at their major fights.

Tsunade vs. Orochimaru
Sakura vs. Sasori
Tsunade vs. Edo Madara
Sakura vs. Jūbi
Sakura vs. Kaguya

Not once have they hit someone with average durability like Minato or Itachi.

If  either of them were to land that hit? They're dead. It's not going to  happen here anytime soon, though. Hitting someone with V2 A levels of  speed with a telegraphed punch is hard enough as is. Add a three-tomoe  Sharingan to the equation? Forget it.

She could outlast Itachi I  guess, but I assume he's got enough chakra to use that super Shunshin  repeatedly throughout the match . . . so yeah.


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