# Itachi vs Killer Bee (conditions)



## demaMlaJ (Jan 11, 2017)

Itachi *without* the _Sharingan_ or Killer Bee *without *_Hachibi_, who from feats and your opinion based on facts would win?

Place: Where Killer Bee fought Sasuke
Knowledge: None
Distance: 25 yards


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## Dr. White (Jan 11, 2017)

Comes down to if Itachi can land ephemeral/clone feint into a killshot before Bee pulls out his swords and eventually catches up to Itachi and kills him.

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## Ryuzaki (Jan 11, 2017)

Killer Bee curbs

Based on feats Itachi without his sharingan falls to mid-to-high jounin level, perhaps even lower. Killer Bee without the Hachbi has shown that he can handle MS Sasuke without much difficulty. He can still implement raiton-based moves and has a whole combat-based arsenal that will prove too much for Itachi.

More to the point, Itachi will not be able to:

- React to Killer Bee
- Implement any high level genjutsu (Tsukuyomi)
- Amaterasu/Susano'o are gone too
- No sharingan means, no Izanagi or Izanami

He's really at the mercy of Killer Bee, KB is far too fast, durable and much stronger (physically) than Itachi. Itachi has close to no advantage on both offense or defense.

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## Bonly (Jan 11, 2017)

Sasuke without his Sharingan went into CQC without his Sharingan and managed to outplay B and land a hit so outside of B using his acrobat fighting style, Itachi should be able to react to B in CQC and get some hits in and since Killer B is lacking in the range game(I don't recall him using any range jutsu without Gyuki) so overall wise Itachi should be good for a bit. There's Finger Genjutsu which Killer B has no knowledge on and if he gets caught then that sets up Itachi to set up his next attack and keep pressuring Killer B. Then there's shadow clones and exploding clones crow clones which can cause feints that Killer B would have to deal with that can not only dish out damage but also set up free shots and follow up attacks as well as create distractions. Then there's Itachi's sped and fast jutsu speed that had Kakashi on his toes as well as let him create a clone that even Hebi Sasuke couldn't see as well as his speed to use a Katon and ponce on B+Naruto when B was surprised as opposed to Naruto+Nagato who knew what was up along with Itachi getting behind Killer B and giving him a heads up. Even without the Sharingan Itachi has alot going for him that B is gonna have a problem dealing with since Itachi can attack from multiple different angles at such a fast pace. Whether Killer B wins or not depends on if he gets close enough to go at Itachi with his acrobat swordplay upon which he'd overwhelm and kill Itachi though I'd favor Itachi to come out on top more times then not.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Android (Jan 12, 2017)

Itachi w/o Sharingan ?
Yeah , Bee rapes .

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2 | Disagree 1


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## Sadgoob (Jan 12, 2017)

1. Bee needed Samehada to block Itachi's katon. (It hurt Samehada.)
2. Bee needed Nagato to warn him about Itachi's clone feint.
3. Bee needed Naruto to block Itachi's clone feint.
4. Bee was unable to hit Itachi when Itachi wasn't even looking at him.
5. Bee needed Itachi to warn him about flickering behind him.
6. Bee needed the Hachibi (transformation) to block Itachi's fire-shuriken. (Bee cried in pain.)
7. Bee needed Hachibi to break him out of genjutsu.
8. Bee needed Samehada to prep the block for Itachi's shuriken.

What makes you think Bee stands any chance here? Without his Sharingan, the only thing Itachi couldn't do above is the genjutsu, but he could just cast finger or crow genjutsu instead and this time Bee doesn't have a method to break it. Itachi proved he didn't need 3-tomoe reflexes when he easily evaded Bee without vision and easily clone feinted him. In contrast, Bee was *heavily* reliant on his partners throughout his entire scuffle with Itachi. Without them, he would have been racking up injuries:

1. Bee is surprised by the jutsu speed and is clipped with some fire damage. Lightly injured.
3. Bee is surprised by Itachi's clone feint and takes some light blade damage. Lightly injured.
5. Bee is surprised by Itachi flickering behind him, and takes some more light blade damage. Moderately injured.
6. Bee is unprepared to block Itachi's fire shuriken cleanly and takes some blade/fire damage. Moderately injured.
7. Bee doesn't break out of genjutsu in time and takes solid blade damage. Heavily injured.
7. Bee doesn't have Samehada to prep his blades for the block either, so he takes more blade damage. Remains heavily injured.
8. Bee is _one minute in_ and dripping blood, burns, and is in no better shape against speed (can't track) or genjutsu (can't look.) And this is assuming Itachi doesn't _*solidly*_ land anything before the genjutsu combination.



Ryuzaki said:


> Based on feats Itachi without his sharingan falls to mid-to-high jounin level perhaps even lower.



LOL! Itachi beat Pre-Wind and Post-Wind Naruto with a finger and crow genjutsu respectively, not his own Sharingan. Naruto was a Low Kage both times, having been trained by Jiraiya and being able to access KN0, KN1, Gamabuta, and having enough skill to clone feint Kakashi and Kakuzu (so he's obviously _*way*_ above High Jonin like part one Kabuto.) Post-Wind he had much greater chakra control (and _much _stronger chakra) than any normal Kage to make the FRS, and was still seemingly unable to break out of the Itachi clone's crow genjutsu. Both times it was a watered down Itachi clone that trounced Naruto in genjutsu, not 100% Itachi himself.



Ryuzaki said:


> Killer Bee without the Hachbi has shown that he can handle MS Sasuke without much difficulty.



First, you're mistaken. Bee needed the Hachibi to break him out of genjutsu (when Sasuke put him on his face near the beginning of the match.) And by "MS Sasuke," you mean Sasuke without any MS techniques that was stated to still be injured from Itachi, as well as having most of his powers sealed by Itachi (Curse Seal enhancements, Orochimaru enhancements.) Sasuke was also emotionally traumatized and became tactically retarded compared to Hebi Sasuke against Deidara or Itachi. In reality, _that_  "MS Sasuke" _an entire tier weaker than even Sasuke at the beginning of part 2_ (before absorbing Orochimaru.)



Ryuzaki said:


> More to the point, Itachi will not be able to:
> 
> - React to Killer Bee



LOL! Killer Bee couldn't even hit Itachi when Itachi was grappling with KCM Naruto and _had his back turned_ to Killer Bee. Itachi was literally blind to Killer Bee (no Sharingan, no normal eyeball,) literally tied up in grappling with Naruto, obviously focused on Naruto, and Bee _still_ couldn't land a hit. Yet somehow you think Itachi can't react? The manga clearly shows Itachi having no issue reacting to Killer Bee _*with no vision at all. *_Itachi is 5/5 and faster than Bee with or without vision, even as an Edo (IMO < 100% peak life.)



Ryuzaki said:


> Implement any high level genjutsu (Tsukuyomi)



Genjutsu is skill-based not power-based and Itachi's genjutsu skill is at the highest level and the most hyped in the manga i.e. being the only person to control people with genjutsu without sensing teams detecting a thing. Bee without Hachibi has nothing to indicate his chakra control or chakra power is better than Post-Wind Naruto who instantly lost to Itachi's clone's crow genjutsu. Bee also doesn't seem particularly intellectual, so I doubt he'd recognize realistic genjutsu either (when, say, Deidara did not.)



Ryuzaki said:


> KB is much stronger (physically) than Itachi.



Itachi blocked Sage Kabuto, KCM Naruto, and Bee himself. He has no issues with parrying strong opponents. We also don't really know Itachi's strength in a normal or Edo body. We just know he's 3.5 in an end-stage diseased body. In alternate media (books, TV,) Itachi is portrayed as _exceptionally_ strong when not sick and does things like defeating boss summons with strength, making craters in the ground from blows, or destroying boulders i.e. what you'd expect from someone blocking a Sage.

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## UchihaX28 (Jan 12, 2017)

Itachi, while preoccupied with KCM Naruto, casually evaded Bee's attack* from the rear*. Bee's speed is by no means worrisome for the likes of Itachi, with or without the Sharingan.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Sapherosth (Jan 12, 2017)

Bee still loses to finger genjutsu. 

Outside of his acrobat style, he cannot put Itachi down even without sharingan. I remember Sasuke holding his own for a while without sharingan, so Itachi will probably do better and land a genjutsu. Explosive clones will also come in handy.

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## Ryuzaki (Jan 12, 2017)

lol y'all are crazy if you think Itachi manages to win against Bee without his MS. He's barely Asuma level and that's being generous

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## LightningForce (Jan 12, 2017)

Why is this thread not locked yet?

KB rapes, and rapes *hard*.

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## Android (Jan 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> lol y'all are crazy if you think Itachi manages to win against Bee without his MS. He's barely Asuma level and that's being generous





LightningForce said:


> Why is this thread not locked yet?
> 
> KB rapes, and rapes *hard*.


Glad to see that some people can read the manga .

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 12, 2017)

With no MS, Itachi can't even take Kakashi. So I don't see how he'll take Bee who was able to stomp base Sharingan Sasuke. 



Dr. White said:


> Comes down to if Itachi can land ephemeral/clone feint into a killshot before Bee pulls out his swords and eventually catches up to Itachi and kills him.



Are we combining Itachi's feats with other characters' feats/qualities again?


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## Dr. White (Jan 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> lol y'all are crazy if you think Itachi manages to win against Bee without his MS. He's barely Asuma level and that's being generous

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## Dr. White (Jan 12, 2017)

It's good to see all this downplay

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## Sapherosth (Jan 12, 2017)

Lets see,

Without sharingan, Itachi has:

1. Clones for feints (explosion and crows)
2. Crows for feints
3. Suiton
4. Katons
5. Finger Genjutsu which solo'd Naruto who had genjutsu resistant training and had to be saved by two medical ninja's.
6. One of the smartest brains in this manga
7. Fast shunshin and foot speed.



Killer Bee without Hachibi:

1. Excellent strength/speed
2. High chakra
3. Insane acrobat
4. Durable
5. Borderline retarded.
6. Raiton pencils

Yeah....stop the wanking. Without Hachibi, Killer Bee gets owned by genjutsu HARD.

Here's how the fight will go - Itachi uses Katon, Bee dodges, tries to attack Itachi, gets hit by finger genjutsu - Fight over.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 12, 2017)



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## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2017)

Killer bee is limited to acrobat and base lariat

he is slower than itachi, has less mid range game and no feinting ability. 

itachi would kick his teeth in casually. Cant believe anyone would believe bee stands a chance here

Reactions: Like 3


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## LightningForce (Jan 12, 2017)

We literally have zero feats of Itachi in combat without his Sharingan. Sharingan is what enabled him to react, parry, and land precise hits on all of his opponents. It's what allowed Kakashi and Sasuke to perfect their signature technique.

Sharingan is the Uchiha's greatest asset and without it, they are essentially broke. There's a reason why we almost never see an Uchiha fighting without it.

Killer Bee's base techniques and reflexes have been shown to dazzle and overpower Sharingan Sasuke as well as push back Sharingan Itachi. What would happen if they didn't have Sharingan to at the very least keep track of Bee's complex swordplay as well as movements? Oh wait, I have an idea.

Bee has everything from durability, speed, strength, and swordsmanship. Katons are easy for him to dodge/tank. Shurikenjutsu are easily parried, and will be less precise without Sharingan. An exploding clone is nothing for him to be unable to dodge. I'll be damned if anybody ever thinks that KB loses to finger genjutsu.

Are we going to say Sharinganless Itachi can defeat Sharingan Sasuke now? What has this world come to?

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## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2017)

LightningForce said:


> We literally have zero feats of Itachi in combat without his Sharingan. Sharingan is what enabled him to react, parry, and land precise hits on all of his opponents. It's what allowed Kakashi and Sasuke to perfect their signature technique.
> 
> Sharingan is the Uchiha's greatest asset and without it, they are essentially broke. There's a reason why we almost never see an Uchiha fighting without it.
> 
> ...



sharingan has no baring on his hand seal speed. which affects his feinting ability 
sharingan had no baring on his ability to evade bee when bee attacked from behind

sharingan had no baring on his crimson flower jutsu

has no baring on his katon 

etc

shiruken jutsu easily parried? when he used partial transformation to block one and 7 sword style to block the other which he only managed on both occasions due to hachibi support?

bee would have to know the clone explodes though, he has no way to tell till it explodes. thats the entire idea of a trap clone. bee is exclusively close range which means he is far more likely to even run into a trap clone

attempts a lariat on what he thinks is itachi only for it to be a clone which explodes in his face


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## Rocky (Jan 12, 2017)

Guys this might be close.

Itachi doesn't need his Sharingan to be one of the better genjutsu users we've seen. Bee has had Gyūki to snap illusions for him for years, so I'm going to assume that Bee never spent too much time on his own personal genjutsu defense. Itachi should be able to create plenty of openings here. The one problem he faces is that he kinda can't do anything to Bee. Fireball hurts but I don't see it causing a critical injury to somebody so tanky. Itachi probably can't beat Acrobat without his Sharingan, and if Bee gets ahold of Itachi, Itachi is dead. Itachi can win if his base genjutsu can open Bee up enough to where Itachi can stack like seven katon technique on him, but otherwise Bee breaks all of his ribs with Lariat.

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 12, 2017)

Just saying, fellas, if Bee could tank a powerful ST, the same one which turned Edo Itachi into dust, then I do not see Itachi being able to do much to budge him.


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## Bonly (Jan 12, 2017)

Rocky said:


> Guys this might be close.
> 
> Itachi doesn't need his Sharingan to be one of the better genjutsu users we've seen. Bee has had Gyūki to snap illusions for him for years, so I'm going to assume that Bee never spent too much time on his own personal genjutsu defense. Itachi should be able to create plenty of openings here. The one problem he faces is that he kinda can't do anything to Bee. Fireball hurts but I don't see it causing a critical injury to somebody so tanky. Itachi probably can't beat Acrobat without his Sharingan, and if Bee gets ahold of Itachi, Itachi is dead. Itachi can win if his base genjutsu can open Bee up enough to where Itachi can stack like seven katon technique on him, but otherwise Bee breaks all of his ribs with Lariat.



There's also a water source nearby so how well do you think B would be able tank at least five water drills from Itachi's Suigadan which pretty much attack from 360 degrees?

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## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2017)

Rocky said:


> Guys this might be close.
> 
> Itachi doesn't need his Sharingan to be one of the better genjutsu users we've seen. Bee has had Gyūki to snap illusions for him for years, so I'm going to assume that Bee never spent too much time on his own personal genjutsu defense. Itachi should be able to create plenty of openings here. The one problem he faces is that he kinda can't do anything to Bee. Fireball hurts but I don't see it causing a critical injury to somebody so tanky. Itachi probably can't beat Acrobat without his Sharingan, and if Bee gets ahold of Itachi, Itachi is dead. Itachi can win if his base genjutsu can open Bee up enough to where Itachi can stack like seven katon technique on him, but otherwise Bee breaks all of his ribs with Lariat.



You  Think bee can tank a point blank exploding clone ?


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## Rocky (Jan 12, 2017)

Bonly said:


> There's also a water source nearby so how well do you think B would be able tank at least five water drills from Itachi's Suigadan which pretty much attack from 360 degrees?


It depends on the drilling force of the water. I did forget about that though, so that'd be another option for Itachi.


Icegaze said:


> You  Think bee can tank a point blank exploding clone ?


Yes. Jūgo's rocket punched Bee in the skull and did no damage whatsoever. I don't really think Itachi's clone is noticeably superior to Jūgo's enhanced fist.


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## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2017)

Rocky said:


> It depends on the drilling force of the water. I did forget about that though, so that'd be another option for Itachi.
> 
> Yes. Jūgo's rocket punched Bee in the skull and did no damage whatsoever. I don't really think Itachi's clone is noticeably superior to Jūgo's enhanced fist.



Or bee avoided the rocket punch before it drilled him to the ground 

All bee tanked was a morphed CS2 punch 

When jugo decided to jet pack it 
The scene cuts and next thing we know bee is atop some broken rocks 

No actual proof he tanked the rocket punch

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 12, 2017)

Be literally tanked plausibly the second strongest Shinra Tensei in his base mode... Naruto was in KCM when he did and Edo Itachi got turned into dust. That isn't something we should ignore.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> lol y'all are crazy if you think Itachi manages to win against Bee without his MS. He's barely Asuma level and that's being generous



 You're crazy if you actually believe that.

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## demaMlaJ (Jan 12, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> You  Think bee can tank a point blank exploding clone ?


Killer Bee is a tank, even without Hachibi. The only real question is if Itachi's Sharingan-less genjutsu will beat him without Hachibi's assistance? And as a High level Jounin without Hachibi I think he has a chance..?


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## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Be literally tanked plausibly the second strongest Shinra Tensei in his base mode... Naruto was in KCM when he did and Edo Itachi got turned into dust. That isn't something we should ignore.



As did KCM naruto 
The same guy who breaks his ankle when he moves too fast 

Wouldn't use ST to justify bee durability


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## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2017)

demaMlaJ said:


> Killer Bee is a tank, even without Hachibi. The only real question is if Itachi's Sharingan-less genjutsu will beat him without Hachibi's assistance? And as a High level Jounin without Hachibi I think he has a chance..?



Bee has no reason to have trained in genjutsu defence when he has always had a partner 
He gets punked by genjutsu here 

Tank or not bee isn't immune to stabbing or cutting attacks


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## demaMlaJ (Jan 12, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Bee has no reason to have trained in genjutsu defence when he has always had a partner
> He gets punked by genjutsu here
> 
> Tank or not bee isn't immune to stabbing or cutting attacks


What in Itachi's arsenal can kill Killer Bee? The Lariat can def murk Itachi off..

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## Blaze Release (Jan 12, 2017)

Its interesting some of these replies.

Whilst we have seen limited feats of Itachi outside the sharingan, its rather obvious given his hype that he would still be a formidable opponent. Obviously with the restrictions given he is weaker, but his diversity even with the sharingan restricted will pull him through agains't a character who only has taijutsu/kenjutsu to boost about and tbh i will not give bee the speed/reaction time advantage as i believe they would roughly be equal, with itachi if anything having this advantage.

Like some have said, if itachi can stay away from Bee's kenjutsu and he is smart enough to do so in the manga unlike Sasuke who challenged bee, he takes it. He is still smart and cunning enough to use a blend of genjutsu, clone's; bunshin or karasu, kuchiyose to block bee's LOS and ninjutsu execution to give him the edge and overall the win.

Not too sure why base bee's durable is being overestimated.
Sure he is quiet a big guy, however i do not believe he has been hyped or praised for his durability.
We have seen him complain in his partial transformation of hosenka tsumabeni.
I have an idea
With a water near by, itachi should take advantage of this also.

Somebody mentioned his shurikenjutsu skill is affected by the restriction.
However if you go back you'd see that itachi closed his eyes when he launched the kunai's and only opened his eyes with the sharingan.

I have an idea
I have an idea
I have an idea

All in all there is still alot more going for itachi, than there is for bee.


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## demaMlaJ (Jan 12, 2017)

Ablaze said:


> Its interesting some of these replies.
> 
> Whilst we have seen limited feats of Itachi outside the sharingan, its rather obvious given his hype that he would still be a formidable opponent. Obviously with the restrictions given he is weaker, but his diversity even with the sharingan restricted will pull him through agains't a character who only has taijutsu/kenjutsu to boost about and tbh i will not give bee the speed/reaction time advantage as i believe they would roughly be equal, with itachi if anything having this advantage.
> 
> ...



I think it would be a very close match-up too with Bee edging Itachi because of more feats but I do not think it's a rape in favor of Bee because Itachi is a very good ninja even without Sharingan u̶n̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶S̶a̶s̶u̶k̶e̶.


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## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2017)

demaMlaJ said:


> What in Itachi's arsenal can kill Killer Bee? The Lariat can def murk Itachi off..



Exploding clone 
Kunai slash to the neck 
Stab in the gut


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## Sapherosth (Jan 12, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Be literally tanked plausibly the second strongest Shinra Tensei in his base mode... Naruto was in KCM when he did and Edo Itachi got turned into dust. That isn't something we should ignore.




Absolutely hilarious.

Itachi Uchiha gets turned to dust, while a crow survives intact without any damage. 





Let me guess, the crow escaped ST before anyone else and wasn't hit by it?


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## Dr. White (Jan 12, 2017)

So Minato was gonna kill Ei and Bee with a kunai, but Itachi cannot possibly kill anyone here besides being able to fire flow and being a weapon master?

tbf I don't think Minato could have killed shrouded Ei, but I'm pretty sure a ton of ya'll in here saying he can't hurt Itachi wouldn't argue Minato hurting Bee.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 12, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> So Minato was gonna kill Ei and Bee with a kunai, but Itachi cannot possibly kill anyone here besides being able to fire flow and being a weapon master?
> 
> tbf I don't think Minato could have killed shrouded Ei, but I'm pretty sure a ton of ya'll in here saying he can't hurt Itachi wouldn't argue Minato hurting Bee.



Double standard exists.

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## Ryuzaki (Jan 12, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> LOL! Itachi beat Pre-Wind and Post-Wind Naruto with a finger and crow genjutsu respectively, not his own Sharingan. Naruto was a Low Kage both times, having been trained by Jiraiya and being able to access KN0, KN1, Gamabuta, and having enough skill to clone feint Kakashi and Kakuzu. Post-Wind he had much greater chakra control (and _much _stronger chakra) than any normal Kage to make the FRS, and was still seemingly unable to break out of the Itachi clone's crow genjutsu. Both times it was a watered down Itachi clone that trounced Naruto in genjutsu, not 100% Itachi himself.



Both versions of Naruto are nowhere near kage level, at best he's chuunin level in both scenarios in all aspects of combat (taijutsu, ninjutsu, genjutsu). Clone feinting is not an accurate gauge of skill as nearly anyone cannot tell the difference between clones unless you are Madara. Itachi was clone feinted by Part 1 Kakashi, so I guess he's on his level too. 



Sadgoob said:


> First, you're mistaken. Bee needed the Hachibi to break him out of genjutsu (when Sasuke put him on his face near the beginning of the match.) And by "MS Sasuke," you mean Sasuke without any MS techniques that was stated to still be injured from Itachi, as well as having most of his powers sealed by Itachi (Curse Seal enhancements, Orochimaru enhancements.) Sasuke was also emotionally traumatized and became tactically retarded compared to Hebi Sasuke against Deidara or Itachi. In reality, _that_  "MS Sasuke" was _significantly weaker than Sasuke at the beginning of part 2_ (before absorbing Orochimaru.)


Killer Bee has shades, he'd never be able to tell where his eyes are in order to put him in genjutsu.



Sadgoob said:


> LOL! Killer Bee couldn't even hit Itachi when Itachi was grappling with KCM Naruto and _had his back turned_ to Killer Bee. Itachi was literally blind to Killer Bee (no Sharingan, no normal eyeball,) literally tied up in grappling with Naruto, obviously focused on Naruto, and Bee _still_ couldn't land a hit. Yet somehow you think Itachi can't react? The manga clearly shows Itachi having no issue reacting to Killer Bee _*with no vision at all. *_Itachi is 5/5 and faster than Bee with or without vision, even as an Edo (IMO < 100% peak life.)


Itachi has no precognition and Killer Bee put Itachi on the defensive when he had the sharingan. Itachi may be top tier in reflexes but he's still slower than the likes of Killer Bee, Raikage and etc. He's not known for his speed like the cloud shinobi are. Killer Bee was dancing around Sasuke and he couldn't even keep up with his sharingan. Itachi gets pummeled here.



Sadgoob said:


> Genjutsu is skill-based not power-based and Itachi's genjutsu skill is at the highest level and the most hyped in the manga i.e. being the only person to control people with genjutsu without sensing teams detecting a thing. Bee without Hachibi has nothing to indicate his chakra control or chakra power is better than Post-Wind Naruto who instantly lost to Itachi's clone's crow genjutsu. Bee also doesn't seem particularly intellectual, so I doubt he'd recognize realistic genjutsu either (when, say, Deidara did not.)


He'd never get the chance to use his finger genjutsu because the obvious requirement is Itachi making sure they look at his finger, which Itachi wouldn't be able to confirm with Killer Bee's shades on.



Sadgoob said:


> Itachi blocked Sage Kabuto, KCM Naruto, and Bee himself. He has no issues with parrying strong opponents. We also don't really know Itachi's strength in a normal or Edo body. We just know he's 3.5 in an end-stage diseased body. In alternate media (books, TV,) Itachi is portrayed as _exceptionally_ strong when not sick and does things like defeating boss summons with strength, making craters in the ground from blows, or destroying boulders i.e. what you'd expect from someone blocking a Sage.


Itachi's strength was average as per everyone, he's not a muscle-bound brute, he's a finesse shinobi, his strength is slightly above average the same as Kakashi. There's nothing about his disease limiting his strength, his disease only effected his longevity on battle. If there was something as compromising as his physical strength it would have been noted in any of the databooks.



Sapherosth said:


> Lets see,
> 
> Without sharingan, Itachi has:
> 
> ...


His clone feints, crow feints, suitons, katons are only going to extend the battle time, not necessarily give him an overt advantage. Finger genjutsu requires Itachi know Killer Bee make his gaze which wouldn't happen due to his shades and likely any basic genjutsu can be broken by someone as skilled as Killer Bee. The intellect disparity between the two won't amount to much, Itachi's strategy against Killer Bee was purely defensive and retreating to use Amaterasu.



Sapherosth said:


> Killer Bee without Hachibi:
> 
> 1. Excellent strength/speed
> 2. High chakra
> ...


You're forget raiton channeling into his swords, better weapon combat, better clone feints and ink-based ninjutsu (i.e. clones and seals). All of which Itachi has no counter for.



Dr. White said:


> It's good to see all this downplay


Downplaying Killer Bee is tough, I'd figure Itachi fans would be up for the challenge.



UchihaX28 said:


> You're crazy if you actually believe that.


Does Itachi have any ninjutsu in his arsenal that even comes close to Hien/Fujin?
Itachi has like no killing potential without his MS.

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## Sadgoob (Jan 12, 2017)

LightningForce said:


> Sharingan is what enabled him to react, parry, and land precise hits on all of his opponents.



Not true. He wasn't looking at Bee when he casually dodged Bee. His eyes might as well have been closed. Itachi was also shown to barely be able to see at all in part two. We saw that he had double vision that was also extremely blurry when fighting Sasuke. He doesn't rely on the Sharingan the way you think he does.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Just saying, fellas, if Bee could tank a powerful ST, the same one which turned Edo Itachi into dust, then I do not see Itachi being able to do much to budge him.



Shuriken and fire made Bee cry out. There are many ninja that can soak up blunt damage _extremely_ well but remain vulnerable to cutting/piercing damage: Orochimaru, Tsunade, Hidan, Gai, Sage Jiraiya, Pain, Kisame, Bee, etc. All of them can endure blunt blows that shatter boulders, but cutting/piercing attacks still penetrate through their flesh effectively. Heck, we saw Kakashi bounce right back from an ST that shattered stone. Do you think Kakashi's skin can tank blades? Nah.

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## Dr. White (Jan 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> You're forget raiton channeling into his swords, better weapon combat, better clone feints and ink-based ninjutsu (i.e. clones and seals). All of which Itachi has no counter for.


Uhm how is Bee gonna hit Itachi when he can cast faster than sharingan can see, genjutsu Bee with crow clones or fingers, and feint him for openings/explosion jutsu? Itachi feinted Bee twice in their encounter. Bee couldn't hit him with Sameheda from his blindside, Bee couldn't tag Itachi when he shadowed him (Itachi dodged, feinted with katon, and put Bee under genjutsu), and Bee couldn't land a hit despite Itachi being armed with a kunai before Itachi jetted out of range.

Bee's feint game is no where near Itachi's and katons deal with them, raiton flow is a bitch I'll give you that but Itachi's whole game revolves around not being hit in the first place. Bee only has better kenjutsu not weapons game overall. (skillwise not weaponset)


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 12, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Uhm how is Bee gonna hit Itachi when he can cast faster than sharingan can see, genjutsu Bee with crow clones or fingers, and feint him for openings/explosion jutsu? Itachi feinted Bee twice in their encounter. Bee couldn't hit him with Sameheda from his blindside, Bee couldn't tag Itachi when he shadowed him (Itachi dodged, feinted with katon, and put Bee under genjutsu), and Bee couldn't land a hit despite Itachi being armed with a kunai before Itachi jetted out of range.
> 
> Bee's feint game is no where near Itachi's and katons deal with them, raiton flow is a bitch I'll give you that but Itachi's whole game revolves around not being hit in the first place. Bee only has better kenjutsu not weapons game overall. (skillwise not weaponset)


Killer Bee is faster than Itachi, more to the point, if he can fool one of the best sensors (karin) and an MS user at the same time, I don't feel like he'd have difficulty fooling Itachi.


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## Dr. White (Jan 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Killer Bee is faster than Itachi, more to the point, if he can fool one of the best sensors (karin) and an MS user at the same time, I don't feel like he'd have difficulty fooling Itachi.


What? When did he fool a sensor and MS user? He was facing a team of people and shushin'd far away against them and then Karin sensed him anyway.

Itachi has feinted shaeingan users while in an intense shuriken battle, woven faster than Kakashi could track, gotten a string combo on Bee, and clone feinted Kabuto with Sage/snake sensing. Itachi is much more crafty than Sasuke at that point as seen in the Kabuto fight

Bee is not overly faster than Itachi. Itachi's agility and execution speed had Bee himself on the ropes twice, andITachi escaped his acrobat with a kunai despite MS Sauce getting well sauced.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 12, 2017)

Given that everyone is projecting their unjustified audacity towards Itachi, I think I'll interject here and give my argument of the battle before fading into the shadows like my boi Itachi, Shisui, and Sasuke. 

A common misconception that is held is that Bee's Kenjutsu mutilates Itachi without analyzing things pragmatically. The technique lacks utility and numerous ninja can counter this technique through diversionary techniques to befuddle Bee or attack from a range to inhibit his ability to engage in CQC with the opposition. Essentially, this technique is only intrinsic to close-combat and reaches a point of diminishing returns when their opponent attacks from mid-range. This is something Itachi excels in and his stupendous speed in ninjutsu deters Bee from even using this style in the first place because orienting his blades in tandem with his body requires time. Itachi would have to withdraw from his rapid-style combat in order for Bee to even utilize this style and even if that wasn't the case, as long as Itachi distances himself from Bee, then Bee can't approach him because approaching him from a vast distance while in an uncomfortable position incompatible with moving from A --> B is inefficient and lends more openings for his opponent.

This is why Killer Bee's Kenjutsu has only been useful in two scenarios, the 2nd of which was because Itachi overtly lent an opening for Bee and disengaged subsequently with ease. The best tactic Killer Bee would rely on is boxing in Itachi with his blades as he did with Kisame which is imprudent because Itachi can simply deflect his blades away and CQC without his erratic maneuvers is suicide because Sasuke alone could manhandle Bee without his Sharingan. Engaging in CQC against some who is significantly faster than Sasuke, can scorch him with Katon (thanks to no partial Bijuu Mode), spiraling suiton that can drill into his opponent, and explosive bunshins (w/ explosions gravely wounding Obito who withstood an explosive rasengan) enables Itachi to overcome Bee in combat.

Sadgoob already outlined why Itachi is significantly faster, so I won't delve any deeper unless need be. Itachi is simply superior given Bee's lack of options and I'm simply astonished by the deprecating comments that denote Base Itachi as Asuma's equal, that's such an asinine claim with no substance behind it.

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## Ryuzaki (Jan 12, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> What? When did he fool a sensor and MS user? He was facing a team of people and shushin'd far away against them and then Karin sensed him anyway.
> 
> Itachi has feinted shaeingan users while in an intense shuriken battle, woven faster than Kakashi could track, gotten a string combo on Bee, and clone feinted Kabuto with Sage/snake sensing. Itachi is much more crafty than Sasuke at that point as seen in the Kabuto fight
> 
> Bee is not overly faster than Itachi. Itachi's agility and execution speed had Bee himself on the ropes twice, andITachi escaped his acrobat with a kunai despite MS Sauce getting well sauced.


Karin wasn't able to sense him after the clone feint, when they took in that fake Killer Bee clone, I mean hell Obito and Zetsu were both fooled as well. Bee is faster than Itachi, that entire time in CQC he made ridiculously quick work of Sasuke, especially when he started using his 7-sword style. That same move forced Itachi to retreat as an Edo and use Amaterasu instead.

From my perspective, Itachi has close to 0 advantage over Killer Bee without his sharingan, if he had his sharingan, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. However, he still doesn't have any viable means of putting Killer Bee down.

The same goes for any real threat, he needs Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi/Susano'o for game enders.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Both versions of Naruto are nowhere near kage level, at best he's chuunin level in both scenarios in all aspects of combat (taijutsu, ninjutsu, genjutsu).



An example of _actual_ Chunin are: Iruka, Mizuka, Demon brothers, and part one Shikamaru. An example of _actual_ low Jonin are: pre-Sharingan Kid Kakashi, Taiseki, 2-tomoe Obito (who paneled a low Jonin.) An example of _actual _elite/top Jonin are Part one Kabuto, Wave Kakashi, and Zabuza. Zabuza said Kakashi and himself could not defeat Haku, Haku easily beat Sasuke even though Sasuke easily blitzed 10 Zabuza clones, and then Haku lost badly to KN0.

You frankly have zero idea where the power bars for Chunin/Jonin ranks are actually located. KN0 has _always _been on the Jonin spectrum, even when Naruto genuinely was low Chunin level in base. And Naruto has been Chunin level in base since chapter 1, because he beat a Chunin instructor (that had just negged Chunin Iruka) without any real effort or injury.

A defined Elite Jonin level is part one Kabuto, and Kabuto beat Tsunade and then got outplayed and took a Rasengan from a pre-SRA base Naruto with a broken leg. Kabuto was also intercepted (and Tsunade saved) by pre-SRA base Naruto. If base Naruto wasn't at least low Jonin when negging Chunin in chapter 1 and intercepting/beating Elite Jonin Kabuto after multiple training arcs, then KN0 _*definitely*_ was because KN0 could effortlessly blitz opponents that base Naruto struggled to touch even with a bunch of clones.

So part 2 Naruto, after more training arc, having trained how to access KN0, KN1, and KN2 while maintaining full control, _*and *_being able to therefore summon Gamabuta with fox chakra like he did in part one to save the entire village from a bijuu...saying he's Chunin level is so wrong that it's hilarious.



Ryuzaki said:


> Killer Bee has shades, he'd never be able to tell where his eyes are in order to put him in genjutsu.



You do know Killer Bee was put into genjutsu while wearing his shades mutliple times against multiple opponents, right? I've said this many times but it's obvious that ninja *don't need to see their target to use visual genjutsu*, they just need their target to see the stimuli (their eyes, finger, their hands, the moon, etc.) This is well established _throughout _the manga.



Ryuzaki said:


> Itachi may be top tier in reflexes but he's still slower than the likes of Killer Bee



The manga *literally* shows the opposite. Bee was *literally* unable to touch Itachi even when Itachi had no eyes on Bee and was tied up with Naruto. Bee was *literally* unable to keep track Itachi's very first movement.



Ryuzaki said:


> Itachi's strength was average as per everyone. He's not a muscle-bound brute, he's a finesse shinobi



Nowhere in the manga or databook is this stated or even implied. Even when Itachi's body was stated to have been eaten up by disease, he had a 3.5 strength which is frankly very good. Old Hiruzen didn't have a diseased body and only had a 3.0 strength, which is equal to Lee in the Forest of Death... where we saw Lee casually rip a tree out of the ground with one hand. We also saw Forest of Death Sasuke with a 2.0 strength kick a building-sized bear to death.

Many ninja that have 4.5 or 5/5 strength aren't muscly like the Raikage, and quite a few have high degree of finesse as well. There's zero reason to think a shinobi can't have strength and finesse. Several ninja with fairly average builds that are 4.5+ strength are: Gai, Lee, Human Path, Tsunade, Asuma, etc. and then you have short fat strong people like Jirobo or Preta Path, and then you have tall (not particularly muscled) strong people like Asura or Kisame. 



Ryuzaki said:


> There's nothing about his disease limiting his strength. It would have been mentioned.



Zetsu* literally* said Itachi should have been much stronger. Your opinion is based on *literally* nothing. It's also common sense that somebody about to die from an aggressive disease isn't at his peak physical strength in life. I have to do fitness tests frequently for my job and I know I'm nowhere near peak physical strength or speed when I have a common cold, and much, much worse if I'm fighting the flu. Neither of those are anything close to something that has me coughing up blood and is terminal.



Ryuzaki said:


> likely any basic genjutsu can be broken by someone as skilled as Killer Bee.



There's literally nothing indicating that Killer Bee is better at chakra control than Wind Naruto, or that he'd even recongnize a realistic genjutsu in time to break out. There's also nothing indicating that the crow genjusu or finger genjutsu are "basic." The finger genjutsu was literally in a chapter titled "Itachi's Power!" and Itachi was hyped as one of the greatest genjutsu users in the world. Kisame urgently asked for Itachi to help him when Kurenai put Kisame in "basic" hand genjutsu. Hiruzen was completely unable to break 10% Hashirama's "basic" hand genjutsu.



Ryuzaki said:


> Itachi's strategy against Killer Bee was purely defensive and retreating to use Amaterasu.



Someone didn't read the manga at all apparently? Itachi was the one that rushed Naruto & Killer Bee with a katon, then rushed them both with a clone feint, then rushed Killer Bee again with a shunshin where he aggressively used genjutsu and weapons. Bee needed help from *literally* five other individuals/entitities (Nagato, Naruto, Itachi, Samehada, Hachibi) in less than a chapter to keep up with Itachi's offensive onslaught. Bee didn't start mounting any sort of effective offense until prepping his 8 blades, which Itachi easily evaded and countered with kunai. There's nothing to suggest he couldn't dump a katon or genjutsu or suiton or exploding clone or clone feint him while he's holding all the blades. Itachi literally "fell back" to engage Naruto again (draw out the sealed crow) because Bee was that impotent to pressure Itachi.



Ryuzaki said:


> The same goes for any real threat, he needs Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi/Susano'o for game enders.



_Multiple_ Akatsuki members disagree.

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## Sapherosth (Jan 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Both versions of Naruto are nowhere near kage level, at best he's chuunin level in both scenarios in all aspects of combat (taijutsu, ninjutsu, genjutsu). Clone feinting is not an accurate gauge of skill as nearly anyone cannot tell the difference between clones unless you are Madara. Itachi was clone feinted by Part 1 Kakashi, so I guess he's on his level too.
> 
> 
> Killer Bee has shades, he'd never be able to tell where his eyes are in order to put him in genjutsu.
> ...




So how did Itachi cast sharingan genjutsu on Bee in the first place since he couldn't see whether or not Bee was looking at his eyes? He was wearing his shades back then too.



Also, I find it insane to call Wind Arc Naruto Chuunin level.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:
			
		

> Does Itachi have any ninjutsu in his arsenal that even comes close to Hien/Fujin?
> Itachi has like no killing potential without his MS.



If his ninjutsu canonically stalemated Kakashi's with ease and vehemently battled against CS Sasuke's tumultuous flames, then yeah, it's significantly stronger than Asuma's ninjutsu.


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## LightningForce (Jan 12, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> sharingan has no baring on his hand seal speed. which affects his feinting ability
> sharingan had no baring on his ability to evade bee when bee attacked from behind
> 
> sharingan had no baring on his crimson flower jutsu
> ...



Feinting without the tools to put effectively put him down will only prolong his inevitable defeat.

Itachi obviously saw or heard KB getting behind him and reacted accordingly. Are we going to say that Sharinganless Itachi can evade back attacks now?

Yes, shurikenjutsu will be easily parried when he still has his seven swords style. And less precise since Itachi doesn't have Sharingan here.

Sharingan had everything to do with the precision of his Crimson flower jutsu.

Exploding clone isn't going to do jack to KB when the guy literally tanked a CS2-enhanced punch from Jugo as well as a forest-blowing ST from Nagato.



Sadgoob said:


> Not true. He wasn't looking at Bee when he casually dodged Bee. His eyes might as well have been closed. Itachi was also shown to barely be able to see at all in part two. We saw that he had double vision that was also extremely blurry when fighting Sasuke. He doesn't rely on the Sharingan the way you think he does.



I'll just post the same statement and question again: Itachi obviously saw or heard KB getting behind him and reacted accordingly. Are we going to say that Sharinganless Itachi can evade back attacks now?

Like you said, we saw how blurry vision affected Itachi's reactions against Sasuke. Now give him no Sharingan and how do you think he will react?

Sharingan reliance is straightforward. It's precognition, the ability to track and foresee movements. Itachi's reactions are undoubtedly worse without Sharingan. He can't keep up in CQC. His shurikenjutsu will be less precise especially given KB's fast and fluid movements. Almost his entire genjutsu arsenal is shut down. And worst, he has to continuously pummel KB with lots of attacks, none of which are hard-hitting or too risky to pull off in CQC, to effectively put him down, given KB's durability.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 12, 2017)

@demaMlaJ  What version of them are present? Is this War Arc Killer B with Samehada? But without anything Jinchuriki-related? Is this Fated Battle Between Brothers Arc Itachi? But without Sharingan?


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## Sadgoob (Jan 12, 2017)

LightningForce said:


> Feinting without the tools to put effectively put him down will only prolong his inevitable defeat.



Genjutsu, blades, fire, and suiton drills are both effective as Bee hasn't demonstrated a defense for any of them. Exploding clones do seem like blunt force though, and Bee has demonstrated he can soak that up pretty well. But most of Itachi's arsenal remains effective. Pain is an example of individuals that can soak up blunt force extremely well but who burning, cutting, drilling, etc. still hurt. And even if blunt force doesn't injure Bee much, pushing him with a suiton or clone's concussive blast would still allow Itachi to set up another attack (and from his blindspot no less) as well as likely knocking Bee's blades away from him.



LightningForce said:


> Itachi obviously saw or heard KB getting behind him and reacted accordingly. Are we going to say that Sharinganless Itachi can evade back attacks now?



Dude. Itachi *did *evade a back attack. It was literally drawn out. How is this even a question? Obviously he sensed Bee (hearing, smell, air, etc.) but it sure as shit wasn't with vision, so the argument that he needs precognition to dodge is patently disproven. He can sense Bee in other ways and dodge.



LightningForce said:


> Yes, shurikenjutsu will be easily parried when he still has his seven swords style. And less precise since Itachi doesn't have Sharingan here.



We saw Itachi's shurikenjutsu with his eyes closed bounce off each other and hit every target. We also saw that Itachi's vision was blurred and had double vision against Sasuke and he was just fine in a shuriken battle. He obviously has trained himself to not rely on vision and yet uses shuriken extremely effectively.

Bee can deflect shuriken better with the 8-swords, but he can't absorb jutsu or dodge as easily in that stance, or form a kai seal easily if caught in a paralysis jutsu while gripping two blades. So he'd be more vulnerable to other elements of Itachi's arsenal. He's hardly invincible. Moreover, he can only block things that he sees or senses. Kabuto said that Itachi's curved shurikenjutsu when attacking from blindspots was virtually unavoidable. So if Itachi clone feints and is in a blindspot, it's less likely Bee would deflect everything. Bee might be able to guard his vital spots, but he'd still likely take some damage.



LightningForce said:


> Sharingan had everything to do with the precision of his Crimson flower jutsu.



It really doesn't, because Bee wasn't moving when Itachi threw them.



LightningForce said:


> Exploding clone isn't going to do jack to KB when the guy literally tanked a CS2-enhanced punch from Jugo as well as a forest-blowing ST from Nagato.



I agree with you that it won't hurt Bee much, _*but*_ it would likely send him flying. This would not only knock some swords away, but also leave Itachi free to set up a combo e.g. the clone explosion knock Bee back into a lake and Itachi uses Suigaiden drills when Bee hits the water.  Really, the fact that Bee doesn't have many other options than to just *take *the concussive blast is a problem. It basically leaves Itachi completely free to set up combos. Itachi using a suiton, like the one he pegged Sage Kabuto with, would also push Bee back and knock away blades just like it knocked away Kabuto's glasses. And if Itachi uses that opportunity to hop in his blindspot, then Bee will definitely be taking hard hits.

As I said at the beginning of my post, Bee has not demonstrated the capacity to tank high level katons (with no chakra cloak,) break genjutsu from elite genjutsu users, and we've already seen that blades _do_ hurt him. Even if Itachi only "clips" Bee with blades and katons, it's going to weaken him and make him less effective as the battle goes on. And since all these jutsu are much smaller than the exhausting MS jutsu (and Itachi isn't sick here?) then it's highly unlikely that Itachi would drop dead from fatigue before Bee bled out or was sufficiently weakened for Itachi to land some major hits.

Itachi, in contrast, _has_ demonstrated that he can evade Bee without any vision at all. And all Itachi has to do to win is evade, land katon, land suiton, and land blade attacks. There likely wouldn't be any 100% killing blow at the beginning, but it would injure Bee and those injuries would build up. Genjutsu, clone feints, and blindspots make that certain, and a 100% kill shot (kunai to the brain) more likely, and it grows more and more likely as Bee racks up injuries.

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## Serene Grace (Jan 12, 2017)

Wow, Bee gets soloed by finger genjutsu, and kunai's....Wow.

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## Sadgoob (Jan 12, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Wow, Bee gets soloed by finger genjutsu, and kunai's....Wow.



What kind of idiot would think a clone feint + weapon combo could solo someone like base Bee?

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 12, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Hashirama killed Madara with a plain sword.


hmm did they fight for hours, prior to Hashi doing that, I can't remember? Can Itachi repeat this feat? I mean you'd think that some people would use their common sense, and their *eyes* to see that finger genjutsu takes extereme *focus and aim, *something Itachi won't get as Bee isn't just gonna stand their, allowing him to point his finger at him, and put him in genjutsu, like Itachi defenders suppose he would. Without his sharingan, he doesn't get a slowed down vivid image of Bee, at which he can point his finger at a much easier rate, sadely he has to use his regular eyes which are close to trash, though I agree because Hashi killed Madara with an underground clone after a battle that consisted of a plethora of hours, itachi can repeat that same feat(blatant sarcasm).  While youre at it, you might as well juast throw the Itachi "blitzing" Bee feat(despite bee not seeming the slightest alarmed, ans litreally tols him, he knew he was behind him). As for this topic, I'm staying out of this one, a good 200m away.


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## Bonly (Jan 12, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> see that finger genjutsu takes extereme *focus and aim, *something Itachi won't get as Bee isn't just gonna stand their, allowing him to point his finger at him, and put him in genjutsu, like Itachi defenders suppose he would.



What extreme focus and aim does Itachi need? All he did was point his finger at Naruto and caught Naruto in a Genjutsu, nothing extreme about it. Also Killer B doesn't know about the finger Genjutsu so how would he know that looking at a finger would result in him landing in a Genjutsu?



> Without his sharingan, he doesn't get a slowed down vivid image of Bee, at which he can point his finger at a much easier rate, sadely he has to use his regular eyes which are close to trash,



Sasuke without his Sharingan went into CQC and managed to outplay B and land a hit so outside of B using his acrobat fighting style, Itachi should be able to react to B's movements decently well even with "his regular eyes which are close to trash".


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## Sapherosth (Jan 12, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Wow, Bee gets soloed by finger genjutsu, and kunai's....Wow.




Well, he would've if Hachibi didn't bail him out. No reason to suggest Bee has any genjutsu resistant outside of Hachibi.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 12, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> hmm did they fight for hours, prior to Hashi doing that, I can't remember?



Yeah, he spent a couple hours trying stuff that didn't work like the clone feint and sword did.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> juast throw the Itachi "blitzing" Bee feat(despite bee not seeming the slightest alarmed, ans litreally tols him, he knew he was behind him).



Only in the fan translation. In the actual/official manga, Bee said "Got it!!!"

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2017)

LightningForce said:


> Feinting without the tools to put effectively put him down will only prolong his inevitable defeat.
> 
> Itachi obviously saw or heard KB getting behind him and reacted accordingly. Are we going to say that Sharinganless Itachi can evade back attacks now?
> 
> ...



How did he see an enemy behind him with sharingan ? With the eyes behind his head ?
Nope he heard bee and that was enough to evade him showing a difference in speed 

Itachi crow also tanked that ST 
Guess it was really powerful

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 13, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> As did KCM naruto
> The same guy who breaks his ankle when he moves too fast
> 
> Wouldn't use ST to justify bee durability



KCM is basically the same as Naruto using KN9 i.e. something stronger and more durable than KN6. It makes sense he would tank it.



Sapherosth said:


> Absolutely hilarious.
> 
> Itachi Uchiha gets turned to dust, while a crow survives intact without any damage.
> 
> ...



For all we know, Naruto could've shielded it. The panel wasn't shown.

Ask yourself this, either Itachi is a sadist and loved watching his comrades almost die before striking. Or Kabuto knew Itachi was dust and tried to finish off the Jinchuriki before Itachi reformed. The second one sounds more sensible.

1. V4 Susanoo feels nothing with CT and breaks out with Totsuka.
2. After getting caught in a Yomi Numa, Itachi will jump out.
3. Itachi can use Amaterasu on 3 Sage sensors simultaneously without them knowing about it.

I wonder if I'm going to add "Itachi can tank a strong ST" to the list.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> KCM is basically the same as Naruto using KN9 i.e. something stronger and more durable than KN6. It makes sense he would tank it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You mean the guy who broke his ankle when landing using shunshin 

Or the guy who got hurt by Roshi lava body 

As if .. KCM ain't all that durables 

Odd how you ignored the crow tanked it as well


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 13, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> You mean the guy who broke his ankle when landing using shunshin
> 
> Or the guy who got hurt by Roshi lava body
> 
> ...



I don't see how a shroud can stop him from breaking his ankle due to him being clumsy.

He got hurt, but he wasn't taken out.

Durable means he can take hits and bounce back. Not that he's safe from being clumsy or can't feel pain.

Crow, Naruto could've easily shielded. Now I want you to answer: is Itachi the type of guy who'd save his comrades when he can or wait? Or is Kabuto the kind of guy to try to take care of his targets the while Itachi is reforming?

One is OOC and the other is IC, so the answer is obvious.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 13, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> KCM is basically the same as Naruto using KN9 i.e. something stronger and more durable than KN6. It makes sense he would tank it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ohhh so Naruto somehow shielded the crow......Right. Because it wasn't shown, Naruto must've protected the crow.

But wait, since it wasn't shown, Itachi must've been turned to dust! Despite having Susano to protect himself.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 13, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Ohhh so Naruto somehow shielded the crow......Right. Because it wasn't shown, Naruto must've protected the crow.
> 
> But wait, since it wasn't shown, Itachi must've been turned to dust! Despite having Susano to protect himself.



Show me Susanoo in that panel. 

So Naruto simply shielding a crow is so unfathomable to you when the following are perfectly logical to you:

1. V4 Susanoo feels nothing with CT and breaks out with Totsuka.
2. After getting caught in a Yomi Numa, Itachi will jump out.
3. Itachi can use Amaterasu on 3 Sage sensors simultaneously without them knowing about it.



Naruto couldn't have shielded the crow, its not like he has some sort of shroud or anything.  

You really couldn't answer the Kabuto point, could you?


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## Sapherosth (Jan 13, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Show me Susanoo in that panel.
> 
> So Naruto simply shielding a crow is so unfathomable to you when the following are perfectly logical to you:
> 
> ...





Wow.....

You ask me to show Susano in that panel. Why don't YOU show me Naruto protecting the crow? 


I couldn't answer Kabuto's point?  

There was no point to begin with, you have zero substance to support your claim whatsoever.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 13, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Wow.....
> 
> You ask me to show Susano in that panel. Why don't YOU show me Naruto protecting the crow?
> 
> ...



Unless you think a small crow can tank what 3 toads couldn't, I think you ought to at the very least provide a better alternative explanation. Though, going by your conduct, I'm not going to hold my breath on that. I asked you to show Susanoo because I knew you couldn't as Itachi didn't use Susanoo hence he became dust.

Yes, you can't answer the Kabuto point I put forward. 

You Itachi fans crack me up, even now.
Either you don't read what you quote or resort this sort of posting style that you're currently using when confronted with points you simply cannot tackle.

Never change, plz.

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## Sapherosth (Jan 13, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Unless you think a small crow can tank what 3 toads couldn't, I think you ought to at the very least provide a better alternative explanation. Though, going by your conduct, I'm not going to hold my breath on that. I asked you to show Susanoo because I knew you couldn't as Itachi didn't use Susanoo hence he became dust.
> 
> Yes, you can't answer the Kabuto point I put forward.
> 
> ...



Ever heard of the saying "The bigger they are, the harder they fall" ?


You ask me to show Susano, why can't I ask you to show me Itachi turning into dust? Lmfao. If a crow can survive it, so can Itachi.


Your point about Kabuto knowing Itachi turned to dust which is why he went for Naruto and Bee holds no substance whatsoever. Kabut could have easily targeted those two first because they were his targets to begin with.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 13, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Ever heard of the saying "The bigger they are, the harder they fall" ?
> 
> 
> You ask me to show Susano, why can't I ask you to show me Itachi turning into dust? Lmfao. If a crow can survive it, so can Itachi.
> ...



Tell me you think a crow can tank ST. 

You can't even explain why Itachi would let his comrades stay in danger... unless he was recovering.

Of course, this doesn't change the fact that you can't tackle simple points.


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## demaMlaJ (Jan 13, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> @demaMlaJ  What version of them are present? Is this War Arc Killer B with Samehada? But without anything Jinchuriki-related? Is this Fated Battle Between Brothers Arc Itachi? But without Sharingan?


This is Killer Bee before his battle with Kisame.. And this is Itachi before his battle with Sasuke just without his Sharingan.


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I don't see how a shroud can stop him from breaking his ankle due to him being clumsy.
> 
> He got hurt, but he wasn't taken out.
> 
> ...



Itachi is the kind of guy who would exploit openings which is what he did
Waiting till nagato had his back turned while focused on naruto and bee 

That's the kind of guy itachi is 

Baseless to claim the crow was shielded 

No scans showing such


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## Sapherosth (Jan 13, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tell me you think a crow can tank ST.
> 
> You can't even explain why Itachi would let his comrades stay in danger... unless he was recovering.
> 
> Of course, this doesn't change the fact that you can't tackle simple points.




I don't "think", the crow survived it in the manga. If a crow survived it without a scratch, so did Itachi. 

Base Bee didn't receive any damage, but somehow Itachi with Susano was turned to dust. This is just too sad....


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## Azula (Jan 13, 2017)

Will bee using ink fall under hachibi power?
Or is it something that has developed within him due to influence of hachibi much like naruto's whiskers?
He just uses it casually to write on his notebook when talking to kisame.

If ink is allowed I can see Bee hitting Itachi with a blast of it on face as a surprise attack if they parry with sword/kunai.
And that can be the opening hit Itachi in the critical spot.



Sapherosth said:


> Base Bee didn't receive any damage, but somehow Itachi with Susano was turned to dust. This is just too sad....



Bee's durability is often overlooked, but he is actually built along the same manner as raikage.
Second best maybe but not far behind him.
In the flashbacks you can see raikage encouraging bee to eat a lot to build his body.
Bee tanking shinra tensei isn't the least bit surprising.

But shinra tensei can seriously fuck up anyone with any body enhancements.
Hinata and kakashi were half dead from one blast of it.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 13, 2017)

-Azula- said:


> Will bee using ink fall under hachibi power?
> Or is it something that has developed within him due to influence of hachibi much like naruto's whiskers?
> He just uses it casually to write on his notebook when talking to kisame.
> 
> ...




Base Bee's durability > Susano? 

If not, the debate is over.


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## Azula (Jan 13, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Base Bee's durability > Susano?
> 
> If not, the debate is over.



Itachi didnt have susanoo when nagato hit all them with shinra tensei 

And I know you like to think that Itachi activated it somehow off panel but you will have to account for his prolonged absence and letting nagato get stronger and letting bee and naruto almost die.

Also seems suspicious that itachi opt for kunais on nagato's summon and naraka path instead of blasting them with yasaka magatama if susanoo was already activated.

The last shown state of characters and previous behavior of jutsu in question seem more reliable in deducing what happened off panel than just inventing scenarios.

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## Android (Jan 13, 2017)

This thread hasn't been locked yet 
Oh......Itachi being overrated as fuck , as usual 

Bee smokes his ass w/o the Sharingan , dafuq people ??!

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 13, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Itachi is the kind of guy who would exploit openings which is what he did
> Waiting till nagato had his back turned while focused on naruto and bee
> 
> That's the kind of guy itachi is
> ...



Kabuto is also the kind of guy who would know to only ignore Itachi because he knows he's dust. 

Baseless, hardly when it did survive a ST when Itachi got turned to dust. What is baseless, however, is to say that Itachi wasn't dust. Kabuto, established via Muu that Edos hit with powerful attacks take time to recover. A Rinnegan attack would be considered powerful.



Sapherosth said:


> Base Bee's durability > Susano?
> 
> If not, the debate is over.



Relevant if Itachi used Susanoo. However, you're basically asking me to say base Itachi's durability > Bee's. 

Fam, the debate was over when you demonstrated you couldn't tackle the points with anything of substance and delved into this desperate "Itachi had Susanoo".


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## Sapherosth (Jan 13, 2017)

-Azula- said:


> Itachi didnt have susanoo when nagato hit all them with shinra tensei
> 
> And I know you like to think that Itachi activated it somehow off panel but you will have to account for his prolonged absence and letting nagato get stronger and letting bee and naruto almost die.
> 
> ...



Prolonged absence can be easily explained by Itachi observing Nagato before taking action as oppose to engaging in blind like Naruto and Killer Bee.

If Itachi really was blasted to bits, how the hell would he know about Nagato's shared vision? Since he would be regenerating far away.

How can you explain the crow also surviving? Or do you actually think Naruto protected the crow.

If you think Naruto managed to protect the crow in time, Itachi can also activate Susano to protect himself in time as well.

You have zero evidence whatsoever to suggest Itachi was destroyed by ST.

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 13, 2017)

Because the only guy of the three to notice Nagato, and react to Ay more easily than Minato did without Hiraishin, managed to react and reasonably saved the crow in time. We need to assume Itachi activated Susanoo because and had a prolonged absence which would make no sense. Even though we should ignore there is always a panel or two dedicated to Susanoo activation.

So Itachi can now predict Shinra Tensei, which probably only Rinnegan and Six Path power users can do (the databook suggests it always gets people off-guard... but Six Paths did help with detecting Limbo), something no ocular power (even the Byakugan) or sensor has ever done.

I'm going to add that the list of baseless things you've passed on as logical.


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kabuto is also the kind of guy who would know to only ignore Itachi because he knows he's dust.
> 
> Baseless, hardly when it did survive a ST when Itachi got turned to dust. What is baseless, however, is to say that Itachi wasn't dust. Kabuto, established via Muu that Edos hit with powerful attacks take time to recover. A Rinnegan attack would be considered powerful.
> 
> ...



And naruto is the kind of guy who shows concern for his team mates even when they are edo 
If itachi was turned to dust he would show concern 
He showed none 

Round in circles regardless till you can show me a scan of itachi being harmed he said ST 

We know for a fact naruto wasn't despite clearly indicating if he takes a direct hit from Ay he could die 

A can barely get though rib cage susanoo 

But somehow you want anyone to believe ST is so powerful yet naruto who isn't more durable than rib cage susanoo can no sell the ST that hit them


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## Azula (Jan 13, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Prolonged absence can be easily explained by Itachi observing Nagato before taking action as oppose to engaging in blind like Naruto and Killer Bee.
> 
> If Itachi really was blasted to bits, how the hell would he know about Nagato's shared vision? Since he would be regenerating far away.
> 
> ...



This would imply that Itachi knew before hand that he would need to hide and observe nagato's jutsu instead of dealing with jutsus on the go as he has done all his life.

Tell me, when fighting kabuto did he send in his brother as bait and say imma hide and observe kabuto, you go ahead?

Also it is stupid that he has susanoo activated but uses kunai to attack summons? As stupid as gathering chakra for amaterasu but going nah better use low tier katons instead.

All of them were thrown in same general direction so he was near them.

The most likely sequence of events.

-Shinra tensei
-all get thrown
-bee chakra is stolen, naruto is captured
-nagato goes for naruto soul
-Itachi finishes regeneration
-bee goes in to save naruto
-chameleon spots bee, nagato grabs him
-Itachi sees this, hits chameleon and naraka summon with kunai
-activates susanoo and goes in to save them in the nick of time.

And don't be hung up on the crow. 

That's as weak as claiming katsuyu clone is resistant to kyuubi corrosive chakra because she was with naruto when he went eight tails in pein arc.

Minor things like that donot feature high on kishi priority list.
Yes they are inconsistencies.

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 13, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> And naruto is the kind of guy who shows concern for his team mates even when they are edo
> If itachi was turned to dust he would show concern
> He showed none
> 
> ...



There's no reason to believe Itachi's body could withstand that ST, yet you're implying he did... You'll need to support evidence for that. Plus Bee has a history of tanking things even a direct ST from a rejuvinated Nagato.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 13, 2017)

Bonly said:


> What extreme focus and aim does Itachi need? All he did was point his finger at Naruto and caught Naruto in a Genjutsu, nothing extreme about it. Also Killer B doesn't know about the finger Genjutsu so how would he know that looking at a finger would result in him landing in a Genjutsu?


What? His finger genjutsu isn't something that happens instantly, lol. Itachi could have easily prepped the genjutsu, that entire chapter where he was just standing there, prior to him using it. What basis or proof do you have to suggest that itachi, just used it out of the blue without any prep. Non sharignan genjutsu, has always taken prep, hence why genjutsu users, rarely engage in combat, and are usually seen at the sidelines, prepping genjutsu and waiting for a distraction(a great example is Cee).



Bonly said:


> Sasuke without his Sharingan went into CQC and managed to outplay B and land a hit so outside of B using his acrobat fighting style, Itachi should be able to react to B's movements decently well even with "his regular eyes which are close to trash".


.....Same Sasuke that got embarrassed when Bee started getting serious and used his kenjutsu, with his *sharingan on
And this...

Spoiler:  






*
Not sure how this example gives you a basis to suggest that Itachi would be able to compete with bee, when Bee completely trashed Sasuke when he got serious. With out his precious pre-cog, he's gonna get embarassed by Bee's kenjutsu

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## Dr. White (Jan 13, 2017)

Itachi was never shown on panel to be ripped to dust. It's absurd to think his body would be turned to dust while Killer Bee and Nardo (who got hurt by Han) suffered no damage, not broken bones, no being maimed, etc. There is literally no evidence to support the notion that Itachi was obliterated it's an argument from ignorance.

Kakashi took multiple point blank ST's to the face, Hell Shikamaru survived being in CST range and came out with a broken leg. ST causes massive internal damage/exterior damage like breaking bones, bruising, etc. Why would ST funciton to blow Itachi to bits this one time when it has never done so before? How we reaching this conclusion with no visual on Itachi taking the hit or his state?


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## Dr. White (Jan 13, 2017)

lmao at Itachi needing to prep his genjutsu's now, and he can't just casually use them out of the blue


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 13, 2017)

demaMlaJ said:


> This is Killer Bee before his battle with Kisame.. And this is Itachi before his battle with Sasuke just without his Sharingan.


 In that case, what we have here is:
*Killer B's Jutsu*

Akurobatto
Raiton: Rariatto
*Itachi's Jutsu*

Bunshin Daibakuha

Karasu Bunshin no Jutsu
Utakata
Katon: Gokakyu no Jutsu
Katon: Hosenka no Jutsu
Katon: Hosenka Tsumabemi
Kage Bunshin no Jutsu
Kuchiyose no Jutsu (Crows)
Suiton: Mizuame Nabara
Suiton: Suiryudan no Jutsu
Suiton: Suigadan
Then you add onto the fact that the location is the Valley of Clouds and Lightning/Storm Cloud Ravine, so Itachi has the natural advantage with all of his Suiton. So Itachi clearly has the advantage when it comes to versatility and range by a long shot, Killer B doesn't have anything outside of close-range techniques. However, if you compare each of their statistics Killer B has a noticeable advantage.
*Killer B's Stats*

Superior Strength (Bested V1 A in a Lariat contest and sent him flying)
Superior Speed & Reflexes (Itachi is terminally ill and has no Sharingan, this isn't Edo Itachi who is basically healthy Itachi with a Pseudo-EMS. This is the Itachi who could barely avoid rigged Shuriken despite having his Sharingan active as well. In before, "he let Sasuke win" I'm aware of that, but that doesn't mean he's omniscient and literally planned out each and every single movement that each of them made. The fact that Sasuke recalled Itachi using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu when Obito said he could've killed him if he wanted too implies that was what he was referring to. Without his Sharingan that he has utilized 99% of the time, his predictive capabilities, visual acuity, clarity, and perception are all significantly decreased and thus so will his reflexes and battle prowess in general.)
Superior Durability (Withstood Jugo's Kassokuken: Ichishiki, V1 A's Lariat, and Nagato's Shinra Tensei all with no noticeable damage whatsoever)

Superior Stamina & Chakra Reserves (I don't think this needs an explanation, Killer B is a perfect Jinchuriki and Itachi has a terminal illness)
*Itachi's Stats*

Superior Chakra Control (Despite being terminally ill he lasted as long as Hebi Sasuke did despite him having the Cursed Seal of Heaven and being boosted by absorbing Orochimaru. Also, Itachi's Shunshin overwhelmed B twice and Shunshin is dependent on chakra control according to the First Databook, and has nothing to do with natural physical speed.)
Other than the stated above, Itachi doesn't have any relevant advantages over Killer B when it comes to their stats. Anyhow, as for the actual battle. I'd go with Killer B mid-to-high difficulty, all of Itachi's techniques can either be tanked, countered, or dodged by Killer B. He could pull out and deflect multiple shuriken from Edo Itachi at the last second even after being ensnared in a Genjutsu when the shuirken were basically at point-blank range and headed for him. So Itachi's Shurikenjutsu is a non-factor here, and Killer B could Shunshin a massive distance away even after being stunned a second later at the last second. So he has the speed to evade all of Itachi's Katon and Suiton if he can do that, especially since Itachi's ability to nail him will be greatly inhibited due to his lack of Sharingan.

If he were to attack Itachi first, and Itachi quickly utilized a Kage/Karasu/Daibakuha Bunshin to evade and get behind B to attack him. B has already shown the speed to quickly react and Shunshin far away after being stunned to evade sneak attacks, and the durability to withstand any of Itachi's techniques that aren't that formidable anyway. I ruled Utakata out, because it's completely hypeless and has no official name nor entry in the Manga or Databooks and was only ever used on a base Naruto. Meaning in Kishi's eyes, it's pretty irrelevant and surely will not enable Itachi to take out a bunch of Kage-level characters so easily contrary to what some posters think. So in the end, all of Itachi's techniques can be dealt with by Killer B and once he gets close to Itachi and executes Acrobat he will get overwhelmed and finished in five seconds: so Killer B wins.

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## Sapherosth (Jan 13, 2017)

-Azula- said:


> This would imply that Itachi knew before hand that he would need to hide and observe nagato's jutsu instead of dealing with jutsus on the go as he has done all his life.
> 
> Tell me, when fighting kabuto did he send in his brother as bait and say imma hide and observe kabuto, you go ahead?
> 
> ...



Why not bring up the crow when it's a perfectly valid point? The crow was also hit by the ST just as much as everyone else.

Also, why wouldn't he observe Nagato when he has the opportunity to? It's within his character to do so. Calm > Analyse situation > Counter. Not charge in like Naruto and Bee did.

When he faced Kabuto was a completely different scenario. Comparing the two is ridiculous and is just stretching.

To suggest Itachi's Susano is insufficient to tank a ST that base Killer Bee tanked with ease is insane.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 13, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> lmao at Itachi needing to prep his genjutsu's now, and he can't just casually use them out of the blue


Could you show me a scan of him using finger genjutsu, without any prep? He was literally staring at them for the longest time, and made a seal, and its funny that right after he made the seal we get a showcase/zoom in on his finger, then right after he uses the genjutsu. Not sure why kishi would go out his way, to show:
1. Itachi use a seal
2. Give us a zoom in on his finger
3. Then have him put Naruto in a genjutsu, shortly after.

*Spoiler*: __ 







 Again using this has more substance, then showing no proof at all, lmao.


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## Dr. White (Jan 13, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Could you show me a scan of him using finger genjutsu, without any prep? He was literally staring at them for the longest time, and made a seal, and its funny that right after he made the seal we get a showcase/zoom in on his finger.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


You are pushing the positive claim that Itachi needs prep to use his finger genjutsu when that is not the case. You are adding this random variable of needing to prep his genjutsu because he was doing as Itachi always did, and was casually standing there talking before using it on Naruto. That is not explicit evidence for him needing prep to use the genjutsu, and quite frankly it's a random non sequitur. Occams razor suggest that Itachi needed to use the seal and then the visual stimulus. No diffferent from Kabuto using Temple of Nirvana or Shi using his Raiton genjutsu. Are you gonna claim that Shi needed prep because he didn't cast when Sasuke blitzed and got countered by Darui? Or that Kabuto needs prep because he was amongst the crowd the whole time before casting?

So Itachi's finger genjutsu is like all other jutsu that require a seal? How does this connect to your claim about needing substantial prep?

Furthermore why would this genjutsu require so much prep if genjutsu is more about chakra control not chakra quantity and we know Itachi couldn't use jutsu such as MS in that form?


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## Dr. White (Jan 13, 2017)

Also regarding Itachi's reactions without sharingan it's a bogus argument that he drops tiers or something. All the sharingan does is add the trajectory based pre cog to their vision, it doesn't give them slow mo vision or buffer their actual reactions. This was the case as we saw Sasuke learn to copy Lee's taijutsu after being beaten by it once, and then used it in battle without the use of sharingan , and then once again when he further mastered Lee style taijutsu and used it without sharingan. It is not some crutch that the uchiha need. Once the uchiha copies or faces something it acclimmates the body to it thus having it become apart of their base stats (assuming they are capable of acheiving such.).


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## Serene Grace (Jan 13, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> You are pushing the positive claim that Itachi needs prep to use his finger genjutsu when that is not the case.


By what basis, show me proof to prove me otherwise. Kishi literally went out his way to how:
1. Itachi use a seal
2. Give us a zoom in on his finger
3. Then have him put Naruto in a genjutsu, shortly after.
Are you just gonna completely disregard that because "lol Itachi is too strong"?



Dr. White said:


> You are adding this random variable of needing to prep his genjutsu because he was doing as Itachi always did, and was casually standing there talking before using it on Naruto.


Wrong, you're adding the random varibale that Itachi can juts use finger genjutsu instantly, despite the other genjutsu users, and a couple of clues indicating otherwise. I have something to stand on, while what you're saying has no base.



Dr. White said:


> That is not explicit evidence for him needing prep to use the genjutsu, and quite frankly it's a random non sequitur.


How is it a non sequitur? Its like me saying that Naruto can just use rasengan out of the blue with no prep, he clearly needs to set up the jutsu, prior to using it. Until legit proof is brought forward, that he can automatically just span his finger genjutsu, despite the manga clearly showing use that he can't, then I'm not believing this.



Dr. White said:


> No diffferent from Kabuto using Temple of Nirvana


He did prep the genjutsu, so this actually *helps* my point
Then 14 pages later, after multiple interactions from different characters, he finally uses it. If you're suggesting that he didn't need prep, then you're literally ignoring the manga. 



Dr. White said:


> Shi using his Raiton genjutsu


What? He used handseals prior to the genjutsu happening, *that*....*is*....*prep
*



Dr. White said:


> Are you gonna claim that Shi needed prep because he didn't cast when Sasuke blitzed and got countered by Darui? Or that Kabuto needs prep because he was amongst the crowd the whole time before casting?


No I'm gonna claim they needed prep, because I have *eyes*, and they were clearly shown to use hand seals prior to using the genjutsu, which *is* *prep*, lol.



Dr. White said:


> So Itachi's finger genjutsu is like all other jutsu that require a seal?


Yes wtf. It isn't something, that just magically happens out of nowhere. Like all genjutsu's he needs to set it up, prior to him using it. As I repeat myself

1. Itachi uses a seal
2. Kishi Gives us a zoom in on his finger
3. Then he has Itachi put Naruto in a genjutsu, shortly after.



Dr. White said:


> How does this connect to your claim about needing substantial prep?


You ironically ask me proof, yet haven't shown the slightest proof yourself. I again repeat that you have no basis to suggest that Itachi's finger genjutsu is something that can be used instantly, and needs prep prior to using it, like other normal genjutsu's do. I actually have blatant hints and examples, yet you've provided literally nothing in turn.

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## Serene Grace (Jan 13, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Also regarding Itachi's reactions without sharingan it's a bogus argument that he drops tiers or something. All the sharingan does is add the trajectory based pre cog to their vision, it doesn't give them slow mo vision or buffer their actual reactions. This was the case as we saw Sasuke learn to copy Lee's taijutsu after being beaten by it once, and then used it in battle without the use of sharingan , and then once again when he further mastered Lee style taijutsu and used it without sharingan. It is not some crutch that the uchiha need. Once the uchiha copies or faces something it acclimmates the body to it thus having it become apart of their base stats (assuming they are capable of acheiving such.).


After Sasuke unlocked his 3T, thats exactly what was shown to us
*Spoiler*: __ 







Are you really gonna tell me, that he isn't getting a vivid slowed down Image?

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## UchihaX28 (Jan 13, 2017)

-Azula- said:


> Itachi didnt have susanoo when nagato hit all them with shinra tensei
> 
> And I know you like to think that Itachi activated it somehow off panel but you will have to account for his prolonged absence and letting nagato get stronger and letting bee and naruto almost die.
> 
> ...



 Obviously because shuriken are smaller, therefore, have an easier time avoiding Nagato's LoS.

 That and Kishimoto clearly lionized Itachi throughout the entire fight, so him accomplishing such a feat with mere shuriken elicits a stronger response from the audience.

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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 13, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Also regarding Itachi's reactions without sharingan it's a bogus argument that he drops tiers or something. All the sharingan does is add the trajectory based pre cog to their vision, it doesn't give them slow mo vision or buffer their actual reactions. This was the case as we saw Sasuke learn to copy Lee's taijutsu after being beaten by it once, and then used it in battle without the use of sharingan , and then once again when he further mastered Lee style taijutsu and used it without sharingan. It is not some crutch that the uchiha need. Once the uchiha copies or faces something it acclimmates the body to it thus having it become apart of their base stats (assuming they are capable of acheiving such.).





The Death & The Strawberry said:


> After Sasuke unlocked his 3T, thats exactly what was shown to us
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


In addition to what Strawberry posted, it should be common sense. The Sharingan enables the user to predict their opponent's movements by basically seeing them before they happen in slow motion by observing the most minute muscle movements. This has been canonically confirmed before, and we've literally seen it countless times. It heightens the user's perception and basically enables them to see the attack before it happens, allowing them to react faster. It's what allowed Sasuke to go from getting wrecked by KN0 Naruto to wrecking him, don't be ridiculous. Itachi losing his Sharingan is a significant debuff, he has now lost the ability to predict his opponent's movements, has decreased visual clarity, acuity, and overall perception. 

I'm aware that if their body isn't already trained well-enough then they cannot imitate what they copy, but that doesn't change the fact that it will greatly affect their reflexes and battle prowess in general.

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## Dr. White (Jan 13, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> By what basis, show me proof to prove me otherwise. Kishi literally went out his way to how:
> 1. Itachi use a seal
> 2. Give us a zoom in on his finger
> 3. Then have him put Naruto in a genjutsu, shortly after.
> Are you just gonna completely disregard that because "lol Itachi is too strong"?


A.) you don't understand how the burden of proof works. You're making a claim so you must provide the evidence to justify your positive claim that "Ephemeral needs prep" and that Itachi was explicitly prepping the jutsu vs Naruto.
B.) So once again. Itachi used a seal and then put Naruto in genjutsu with the visual stimulus. How is that prep? It's the same as most other non sealess jutsu. I'm talking about non standard prep and your assertion that Itachi needed the time where he was talking to Kakashi and Co in order to cast the genjutsu.
C.) Naruto was in the genjutsu from the moment that he saw Itachi's finger. He didn't realize he was caught until much later...




> Wrong, you're adding the random varibale that Itachi can juts use finger genjutsu instantly, despite the other genjutsu users, and a couple of clues indicating otherwise. I have something to stand on, while what you're saying has no base.


Not at all. All he has to do is make the seal and get the target to look at his finger. You are trying to use a cutscene and Itachi talking to them as some dishonest means of trying to mitigate ephemeral's effectiveness. 

It's the same shit Kurenai's genjutsu. Make seal and have visual stimulus trap the opponent's mind. 



> How is it a non sequitur? Its like me saying that Naruto can just use rasengan out of the blue with no prep, he clearly needs to set up the jutsu, prior to using it. Until legit proof is brought forward, that he can automatically just span his finger genjutsu, despite the manga clearly showing use that he can't, then I'm not believing this.


I'm clearly not aruging that Itachi can just lift his finger and cast the jutsu. He obviously needs to mold it and make 1 seal. What I am arguing is your notion that after the seal is made and chakra is molded (just like any other jutsu) that Itachi has to wait some crazy amount of time before he can cast it on the target and have them be affected.



> He did prep the genjutsu, so this actually *helps* my point
> Then 14 pages later, after multiple interactions from different characters, he finally uses it. If you're suggesting that he didn't need prep, then you're literally ignoring the manga.


I will give you the Kabuto one as he isn't an amazing genjutsu user and was using an A rank genjutsu with AOE. But he still only needed one tiger seal. I agree though he does have a very small window of time he needs.

This was not the case with Itachi though. Itachi literally made the seal, cutscene, and then chose Nardo as his target with finger blast. Nardo immediately went under...


> What? He used handseals prior to the genjutsu happening, *that*....*is*....*prep*


Literally every basic jutsu requires seals. Usually when people invoke "prep time" it suggest the time to accomplish a jutsu requires additional set up or preperation like Paper Ocean, Edo tensei, Izanami, etc..



> No I'm gonna claim they needed prep, because I have *eyes*, and they were clearly shown to use hand seals prior to using the genjutsu, which *is* *prep*, lol.


One seal performed by a man who an outweave sharingan users pre cog is not some lenghty prep period. You were using this instance to try and back up the "sideline genjutsu users" thing which is not true for all cases and not Itachi. Kurenai straight up used it while being no more than 5m away from Kisame and Itachi, Shi used his genjutsu without a notable distraction. It has nevber been portrayed that Itachi needs crazy prep or openings to use his genjutsu. Certainly nothing that would hamper him from using it directly in CqC. 




> Yes wtf. It isn't something, that just magically happens out of nowhere. Like all genjutsu's he needs to set it up, prior to him using it. As I repeat myself
> 
> 1. Itachi uses a seal
> 2. Kishi Gives us a zoom in on his finger
> ...


Once again you are claiming that the time in between Itachi's seal and him using it on Naruto, was time needed to use the genjutsu. That is not the case. He decided to prep it with his seal, and then only chose to cast it when Naruto attempted to charge him. That does not necessitate he always needs that time after the seal which was my major gripe with your argument as you were insinuating this means Itachi can't effectively use genjutsu in battle. Not to mention talking is frequently regarded as free action.

You're notion was this is the reason most genjutsu users fight from the side and use distractions. This isn't true of genjutsu specialist like Kurenai, Itachi, and Shi who can initiate their genjutsu mid battle just like a rasengan, or chidori back when chidori still needed seals to be done.

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## Dr. White (Jan 13, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> In addition to what Strawberry posted, it should be common sense. The Sharingan enables the user to predict their opponent's movements by basically seeing them before they happen in slow motion by observing the most minute muscle movements. This has been canonically confirmed before, and we've literally seen it countless times. It heightens the user's perception and basically enables them to see the attack before it happens, allowing them to react faster. It's what allowed Sasuke to go from getting wrecked by KN0 Naruto to wrecking him, don't be ridiculous. Itachi losing his Sharingan is a significant debuff, he has now lost the ability to predict his opponent's movements, has decreased visual clarity, acuity, and overall perception.
> 
> I'm aware that if their body isn't already trained well-enough then they cannot imitate what they copy, but that doesn't change the fact that it will greatly affect their reflexes and battle prowess in general.


Yes but that is them having knowledge of something faster than they would normally. It is not buffing their natural reactions (more so enabling their reactions to be used faster by giving them supernatural tracking). If that were the case Sasuke would not have been able to accomplish copying Lee's taijutsu that he got soloed with since he needed sharingan to track it and obviously couldn't keep pace physically. He acclimated his body and learned how Lee did it and accomplished such in base. If sharingan was a crutch then they would need to use it again when trying to replicate said feats because their normal vision would be drastically slower.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 13, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Yes but that is them having knowledge of something faster than they would normally. It is not buffing their natural reactions (more so enabling their reactions to be used faster by giving them supernatural tracking). If that were the case Sasuke would not have been able to accomplish copying Lee's taijutsu that he got soloed with since he needed sharingan to track it and obviously couldn't keep pace physically. He acclimated his body and learned how Lee did it and accomplished such in base. If sharingan was a crutch then they would need to use it again when trying to replicate said feats because their normal vision would be drastically slower.


It allows them to react faster and easier to stimuli, therefore, it enhances their reflexes. The reason Sasuke was able to replicate Lee's fighting style is because he did plenty of training based on being able to easier remember and mimic Lee's techniques due to witnessing it with the Sharingan. So he honed his body and reflexes to be on par with Lee's, so that he could accomplish said feats without the Sharingan. I'm not saying their reflexes are moot without the Sharingan, but they're certainly lower by a noticeable amount and fighting will be harder without it.


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## Dr. White (Jan 13, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> It allows them to react faster and easier to stimuli, therefore, it enhances their reflexes. The reason Sasuke was able to replicate Lee's fighting style is because he did plenty of training based on being able to easier remember and mimic Lee's techniques due to witnessing it with the Sharingan. So he honed his body and reflexes to be on par with Lee's, so that he could accomplish said feats without the Sharingan. I'm not saying their reflexes are moot without the Sharingan, but they're certainly lower by a noticeable amount and fighting will be harder without it.


Yes but you aren't understanding. It's an additive. Which means taking away the sharingan is not a detriment to their natural reactions. It's losing the extra pre cog usually added to their vision. No doubt overall they are less reactive, but they are still pretty comparable to themselves without sharingan barring specificity of trajectory and mirco movements. 

There is a reason it is pseudo pre cognition. Pre cognition is not the same as enhanced reactions. V1 is an example of someone's natural reactions being buffed. 

Sasuke did not train to copy Lee's shadow Taijutsu vs Yoroi. He pulled it out on the fly because he saw it once. Ala he he accomplished a speed without sharingan aiding his reflexes, that prior was enough to overwhelm his natural body speed. So Itachi still has all the experience and acclimation of all he's done in his life, including a ton from sharingan usage.


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## Dr. White (Jan 13, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> After Sasuke unlocked his 3T, thats exactly what was shown to us
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


Do you know what pre cognition is? Sasuke is getting information about trajectory before it happens. His natural reflexes, aka the time it takes Sasuke's nerves to transmit messages about sensory info and for him to think and react, are not being buffed. Sasuke's reactions are still his though, he's just getting the ability to use his reactions earlier because he's being aided by knowing exactly where things are going. 

This is why ei is fast because he actually buffs his bodies ability to react. But sharingan users naturally acclimate to speeds (such as Sasuke did without sharingan) after experiencing them, and still have their natural reactions to count on.


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There's no reason to believe Itachi's body could withstand that ST, yet you're implying he did... You'll need to support evidence for that. Plus Bee has a history of tanking things even a direct ST from a rejuvinated Nagato.



Which has no baring on his ability to tank a stab to the gut


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## Serene Grace (Jan 13, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> A.) you don't understand how the burden of proof works. You're making a claim so you must provide the evidence to justify your positive claim that "Ephemeral needs prep"


Alright, every non sharingan genjutsu needs prep, and kishi literally went out his way to show us Itachi making a seal, then gave us a zoom in on Itachi's finger, then not to shortly have him use the genjutsu.



Dr. White said:


> So once again. Itachi used a seal and then put Naruto in genjutsu with the visual stimulus. How is that prep?


He clearly can't use the finger genjutsu, out of the blue(no one can do that), hence why it makes sense that the finger genjutsu needs prep, and that said "prep", was the seal Itachi made. Funny how Kishi went out his way to show a zoom in on Itachi's finger, and you say that its a non sequitur.



Dr. White said:


> I'm clearly not aruging that *Itachi can just lift his finger* and *cast the jutsu.*


Oh really, contradicting yourself already?


Dr. White said:


> *lmao at Itachi needing to prep his genjutsu's now, and he can't just casually use them out of the blue *





Dr. White said:


> He obviously needs to mold it and make 1 seal. What I am arguing is your notion that after the seal is made and chakra is molded (just like any other jutsu) that Itachi has to wait some crazy amount of time before he can cast it on the target and have them be affected.


I'm not suggesting that, but Itachi clearly can't use it instantly, he needs prep prior to him using it and pointing his finger at someone.


Dr. White said:


> I will give you the Kabuto one as he isn't an amazing genjutsu user and was using an A rank genjutsu with AOE. But he still only needed one tiger seal. I agree though he does have a very small window of time he needs.





Dr. White said:


> This was not the case with Itachi though. Itachi literally made the seal, cutscene, and then chose Nardo as his target with finger blast. Nardo immediately went under...


How can you say this isn't the case, if that's exactly what happen, when kabuto used it? I would understand your point if Itachi used it on different occasions, but he didn't. He was only shown to use the genjutsu once, and that one time he used it, he had to make a seal and wait a lengthy time, prior to him using it. I could agree to disagree on the matter of the time spam that was in between them before he used the genjutsu, but the seal he used was clearly visible, indicating that he needed to hold it, and focus.



Dr. White said:


> Literally every basic jutsu requires seals. Usually when people invoke "prep time" it suggest the time to accomplish a jutsu requires additional set up or preperation like Paper Ocean, Edo tensei, Izanami, etc..


Earlier you literally said: "lmao at Itachi needing to prep his genjutsu's now, and he can't just casually use them out of the blue", I then completely debunked this, as you were saying it as if Itachi is an exception for not needing prep, when the entire manga, and Itachi's specific actions along with manga hints, disagree.



Dr. White said:


> One seal performed by a man who an outweave sharingan users pre cog is not some lenghty prep period.


The seal was visible, indicating that he needed precise chakra control, focus, and had to hold it. Not sure why Kishi would go out his way, to have make his seals visible, and then right after have a zoom in on his finger, clearly indicating its relation.



Dr. White said:


> t has nevber been portrayed that Itachi needs crazy prep or openings to use his genjutsu.


You can't really say its never been portrayed, if he's only used it *once.*



Dr. White said:


> Certainly nothing that would hamper him from using it directly in CqC.


Yah, unlike Naruto, Kakashi, and Chiyo just staring at Itachi, KB is gonna start fighting off the bat, while moving all over the place. Ask yourself this: Would Itachi's finger be able to keep up with something, when his eyes barely can? Once KB starts blitzing and fighting all over the place, Itachi won't receive the benefit of a slowed down vivid image of his nexts move, in which he can directly point his finger at.



Dr. White said:


> Once again you are claiming that the time in between Itachi's seal and him using it on Naruto, was time needed to use the genjutsu.


I'll agree to disagree on the point of him waiting before using it, but as for the genjutsu: His handseals were clearly visible indicating that the seal takes focus, precise chakra control, and hold. Not sure why Kishi would go out his way, to have make his seals visible, if it was one of those seals, that can be used at extreme speeds.



Dr. White said:


> You're notion was this is the reason most genjutsu users fight from the side and use distractions. This isn't true of genjutsu specialist like Kurenai, Itachi, and Shi who can initiate their genjutsu mid battle just like a rasengan, or chidori back when chidori still needed seals to be done.


Not the basic premise of my argument. I was responding to the notion of Itachi, just being able to automatically use finger genjutsu, without any sort of prep. He can't just point his finger, and put someone in genjutsu, he's gonna need to make the genjutsu first, via seals, and then he's gonna have to use it. Lol, not every single genjutsu seal works the same. The one Itachi used, clearly showed that he needed precise chakra control, and had to hold/maintain it.

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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 13, 2017)

Itachi is being underrated. We don't know what kind of effect the loss of Hachibi would have on Killer B's stats, anyway. For all we know, Hachibi's tremendous reserves can be fueling his fast movements. 

Itachi loses absolutely nothing in the physical department. He'd probably gain stamina by not having to keep Sharingan activated, to be honest. Granted, Itachi's chakra control is good, but every little bit counts. The main problem is that Itachi loses precognition from his Sharingan, and we don't know what kind of effect that has on him. But Itachi is still fast in his own right and should have good enough reflexes to at least keep up with his own level of speed. Nothing really suggests that Killer B with Hachibi is faster than Itachi; they're around the same level of speed. The ridiculous speed of Itachi's Jutsu execution, general versatility and intelligence are what would separate these two by a large margin. Itachi can still cast Genjutsu without Sharingan (something Killer B doesn't have), can use Bunshin variants (something Killer B apparently doesn't have without Hachibi's ink) and ultimately has the superior list of elements (Itachi counters Raiton with Fuuton and is matched with Killer B's own Katon/Suiton). There's also the fact that Itachi presumably wouldn't lose Jutsu that he has copied with Sharingan. Killer B's only advantages are kenjutsu, durability, physical strength and stamina.

Itachi takes it without much trouble, considering he has far more options than Killer B and is the better shinobi.

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## UchihaX28 (Jan 13, 2017)

King Itachi said:


> Itachi takes it without much trouble, considering he has far more options than Killer B and is the better shinobi.



This is the crux of the matter for Bee. Bee lacks versatility and it will be his downfall in this match.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 13, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi was never shown on panel to be ripped to dust. It's absurd to think his body would be turned to dust while Killer Bee and Nardo (who got hurt by Han) suffered no damage, not broken bones, no being maimed, etc.



Yup. This is the action sequence of what happened:

Nagato used ST. (1 second)
Nagato rushed and grabbed Bee. (1 second)
Naruto came a few moments later to help but was grabbed. (2 seconds)
Itachi came a few moments after Naruto and saved them. (2 seconds)

In terms of battle time, Itachi was gone for a handful of seconds. If Bee and Naruto sustained literally 0% damage from ST. Bee literally complained more about Itachi's fire shuriken than he did about ST. I doubt Itachi sustained any damage, and that's assuming he was even hit, as he's more reflexive, faster, and observant than Bee. He may have just waited a few extra seconds to make sure his attack/interception was effective (unlike Naruto.)


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## demaMlaJ (Jan 14, 2017)

What in Itachi's arsenal does he have that


King Itachi said:


> Itachi is being underrated. We don't know what kind of effect the loss of Hachibi would have on Killer B's stats, anyway. For all we know, *Hachibi's tremendous reserves can be fueling his fast movements.*
> 
> Itachi loses absolutely nothing in the physical department. He'd probably gain stamina by not having to keep Sharingan activated, to be honest. Granted, Itachi's chakra control is good, but every little bit counts. The main problem is that Itachi loses precognition from his Sharingan, and we don't know what kind of effect that has on him. But Itachi is still fast in his own right and should have good enough reflexes to at least keep up with his own level of speed. *Nothing really suggests that Killer B with Hachibi is faster than Itachi*; *they're around the same level of speed*. The ridiculous speed of Itachi's Jutsu execution, general versatility and intelligence are what would separate these two by a large margin. Itachi can still cast Genjutsu without Sharingan (something Killer B doesn't have), *can use Bunshin variants (something Killer B apparently doesn't have without Hachibi's ink)* and ultimately has the superior list of elements (Itachi counters Raiton with Fuuton and is matched with Killer B's own Katon/Suiton). There's also the fact that Itachi presumably wouldn't lose Jutsu that he has copied with Sharingan. Killer B's only advantages are kenjutsu, durability, physical strength and stamina.
> 
> *Itachi takes it without much trouble, considering he has far more options than Killer B and is the better shinobi*.



1st/2nd Bold: Killer B's speed is = to Taka Sasuke's if not better and without Itachi's precog it will be difficult to fight CQC. While Itachi was equal to Hebi Sasuke in the speed department who is much weaker than Taka Sasuke. I would give Killer B the slight speed advantage.

3rd Bold: O_O I'm sure Killer B can use clones without the help of Hachibi. A basic genin can use clones lol.

4th Bold: Killer B has faced stronger opponents than Sasuke and has won/stalemated and is a better Shinobi than Itachi without his Sharingan.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 14, 2017)

demaMlaJ said:


> 1st/2nd Bold: Killer B's speed is = to Taka Sasuke's if not better and without Itachi's precog it will be difficult to fight CQC. While Itachi was equal to Hebi Sasuke in the speed department who is much weaker than Taka Sasuke. I would give Killer B the slight speed advantage.



What does this post have to do with the bolded as you say?
What I stated is that we don't know what kind of effect the loss of Hachibi would have on Killer B's stats. For all we know, his physical speed could simply be boosted by Hachibi's reserves.

And I don't know what you're talking about. Itachi doesn't need precognition to simply avoid Killer B. He knew it wasn't worth fighting Killer B that way and thus avoided him. Even though Itachi is capable with a sword, he's not a kenjutsu specialist, and he also lacked a sword in that situation.

As for Taka Sasuke being "much" stronger than Hebi Sasuke, that's not entirely true. Along with that, Taka Sasuke being "much" stronger than Hebi Sasuke (from your perspective) has absolutely no correlation with mere speed. If anything, Hebi Sasuke is faster than Taka Sasuke due to Cursed Seal that boosts his stats. A small advantage in speed is not going to really show in a fight, but Itachi's score in DB speaks for itself. His chakra control speaks for itself, too, which gives him a good Shunshin.

Killer B wasn't faster than Sasuke; it's just that Sasuke is arrogant and decided to fight Killer B's kenjutsu with his inferior kenjutsu. Itachi did the complete opposite and avoided it. Itachi's precognition isn't necessary to combat that because he won't even be trying to fight it.



> 3rd Bold: O_O I'm sure Killer B can use clones without the help of Hachibi. A basic genin can use clones lol.



The only clones that Killer B has shown involve ink, which comes from Hachibi as we've seen on panel. Itachi can use Explosive Clones and Crow Clones. Those variants have nothing to do with his Sharingan.



> 4th Bold: Killer B has faced stronger opponents than Sasuke and has won/stalemated and is a better Shinobi than Itachi without his Sharingan.



Nothing you say here applies because Killer B doesn't have Hachibi in this scenario. Itachi has more options without Sharingan than Killer B has without Hachibi.


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## Azula (Jan 14, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Why not bring up the crow when it's a perfectly valid point? The crow was also hit by the ST just as much as everyone else.
> 
> Also, why wouldn't he observe Nagato when he has the opportunity to? It's within his character to do so. Calm > Analyse situation > Counter. Not charge in like Naruto and Bee did.
> 
> ...



As I told you minor inconsistencies are of no value.
Is katsuyu immune to corrosive kyuubi chakra because of pein arc?
If we sit down to make a ist of similar things it would take all day.
Things like that just slip kishi's mind that is all.
Shinra tensei kils people,  thats not going to change because kishi forgot to kill off a small crow.

Kabuto situation is the same because Itachi didnt have knowledge on both him and nagato.
He didnt offer up sasuke as bait.
Your argument doesn't fly.

You still havent explained why Itachi resorts to a dozen kunai when just a couple of magatama would do the same job.
You are not explaining Itachi's illogical descision of using lower tier weapons when already has his strongest jutsu activated.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 14, 2017)

-Azula- said:


> As I told you minor inconsistencies are of no value.
> Is katsuyu immune to corrosive kyuubi chakra because of pein arc?
> If we sit down to make a ist of similar things it would take all day.
> Things like that just slip kishi's mind that is all.
> ...




1. Katsuyu could have easily healed itself when it was inside the Kyuubi, much like how Kin & Gin were able to survive for days inside the actual Kyuubi. 

2. ST doesn't kill per say. The landing or follow up attack usually does. Unless you think the landing killed Itachi with Susano, you have no argument whatsoever. 

3. Itachi using Kunai's instead of the yasaka beads can easily be explained by the fact that he cannot create enough yasaka beads in time to attack at all the eyes at the same time,  but he can use his shuriken jutsu to attack all the eyes in their blind spot more effectively. How many eyes did you see there? and how many kunai's did you see Itachi use? You do realise he has to use it from their blind spots, and Yasaka beads wouldn't have been able to achieve the same result. 

It's like asking Madara why he didn't just use Perfect Susano to kill the Gokage right at the start just because he already has Susano activated. He didn't need to. That's all there is to it. 


And also, can I ask why you think Itachi would use Sasuke as bait when Itachi was clearly protecting Sasuke throughout the fight while sacrificing himself ? Completely out of character. 

Furthermore, Naruto and Bee weren't baits. They went in there of their own accord and failed. Itachi simply waited for an opening to save them. Completely different scenario all together. 

Trying to compare those 2 scenario's is just desperation at its finest.


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## demaMlaJ (Jan 14, 2017)

King Itachi said:


> What does this post have to do with the bolded as you say?
> What I stated is that we don't know what kind of effect the loss of Hachibi would have on Killer B's stats. For all we know, his physical speed could simply be boosted by Hachibi's reserves.
> 
> And I don't know what you're talking about. Itachi doesn't need precognition to simply avoid Killer B. He knew it wasn't worth fighting Killer B that way and thus avoided him. Even though Itachi is capable with a sword, he's not a kenjutsu specialist, and he also lacked a sword in that situation.
> ...



Itachi and B's speed are about equal then (B has a slighter advantage IMO).
Killer B was keeping up with 3-tomoe Sharingan Sasuke in base.. You think non-Sharingan Itachi > Sharingan Sasuke? No..
Maybe it involves ink because of the Hachibi's influence, just like how Naruto has whiskers because of the Fox's influence.. I'm pretty sure a High-level Jonin can perform clones that a low-level Genin could..
What in Itachi's arsenal can kill B without B evading or tanking them?


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## Dr. White (Jan 14, 2017)

-Azula- said:


> As I told you minor inconsistencies are of no value.
> Is katsuyu immune to corrosive kyuubi chakra because of pein arc?
> If we sit down to make a ist of similar things it would take all day.
> Things like that just slip kishi's mind that is all.
> ...


- Nagato/Kabuto was completely different. Itachi took the time to analyze because Nagato was a major threat to all 3 high tiers and they started the fight being seperated by CT. Itachi sat back and analyzed given what he had, and we saw this approahc was better than Naruto's (who had full knowledge) and Bee (who rushed in and tried multiple times to power through Nagato). Kabuto fight is a completely different context...Itachi was in Kabuto envirionment, couldn't kill Kabuto, and was in a completely different fight protecting his brother. Second off *Itachi did sit back and analyze*...He countered his white rage move which would have soloed Sauce, countered mukai tensei, and lead the whole fight.  Hence why Kabuto hyped his battle intuition...Sasuke was just trying to end Itahci and the latter found out about ET curse and figured Izanami was needed..

Kunai > Susanoo magatam's because Itachi was on the move, and can aim his kunai much more ...something magatama cannot do...Throwing a knife is faster than summoning a create to shoot straight projectiles. Itachi was blindsiding Nagato

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## Turrin (Jan 14, 2017)

B would win this. 

If B can troll 3T-Sasuke in CQC w/ 7S, than Itachi can't afford to fight in straight up CQC against B, unless he uses clones. Itachi could try Mid-Range combat, but B can certainly tank Itachi's Katons and Samehada can absorb his Suitons. Itachi's Shuriken Jutsu can be blocked, as we saw B block it with his Kenjutsu before, and B is ultimately faster than Itachi so he'll eventually draw him into CQC, and Itachi will loose there. 

Itachi's best option would be clone feinting B, but even if he manages to trick B, I don't think Itachi will be able to finish B in that opening. B is durable enough where he can likely survive albeit with damage many of Itachi's moves. B can also use his own clones to fight via Ink Bushin to help cover his blindspots too. 

And no I don't count Finger-Genjutsu as viable until I see an actual feat against a High-Tier

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## Serene Grace (Jan 14, 2017)

Turrin said:


> B would win this.
> 
> If B can troll 3T-Sasuke in CQC w/ 7S, than Itachi can't afford to fight in straight up CQC against B, unless he uses clones. Itachi could try Mid-Range combat, but B can certainly tank Itachi's Katons and Samehada can absorb his Suitons. Itachi's Shuriken Jutsu can be blocked, as we saw B block it with his Kenjutsu before, and B is ultimately faster than Itachi so he'll eventually draw him into CQC, and Itachi will loose there.
> 
> ...


Oh my god this. Not sure why people think its impossible to stop, because it caught a bos Naruto.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2017)

Turrin said:


> B would win this.
> 
> If B can troll 3T-Sasuke in CQC w/ 7S, than Itachi can't afford to fight in straight up CQC against B, unless he uses clones. Itachi could try Mid-Range combat, but B can certainly tank Itachi's Katons and Samehada can absorb his Suitons. Itachi's Shuriken Jutsu can be blocked, as we saw B block it with his Kenjutsu before, and B is ultimately faster than Itachi so he'll eventually draw him into CQC, and Itachi will loose there.
> 
> ...



Isn't ink clone a result of hachibi influence which isn't allowed here 

What feats make bee faster than itachi 

Their exchange implied otherwise 

With itachi getting behind bee on one occasion 

Then casually avoiding a blind side attack from bee in another


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## Bonly (Jan 14, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> What? His finger genjutsu isn't something that happens instantly, lol. Itachi could have easily prepped the genjutsu, that entire chapter where he was just standing there, prior to him using it. What basis or proof do you have to suggest that itachi, just used it out of the blue without any prep. Non sharignan genjutsu, has always taken prep, hence why genjutsu users, rare



He makes a seal, points his finger and then the Genjutsu is used. It's not rocket science nor is this some super complex process so I'm not seeing where you get the idea that Itachi needs extreme focus and aim to do the Genjutsu also I didn't think I would need to state Itachi making a seal for the Genjutsu the same way you haven't mentioned the process of B pulling out his swords and then setting them up in each place that he put them. Also B still lacks knowledge on said Genjutsu so it's not like he would purposely avoid looking at a finger.




> .....Same Sasuke that got embarrassed when Bee started getting serious and used his kenjutsu, with his *sharingan on
> And this...
> 
> Spoiler:
> ...



Not sure if trolling or lacks a decent reading comprehension skill . As I just said "*outside of B using his acrobat fighting style*" and what do you show? B using his acrobat fighting style. Well no shit I already agreed to that lol. The point of showing what Sasuke did was to show that even without the Sharingan, Itachi can still react to Killer B so unless you think B is gonna only use Acrobat the entire time(which isn't something he's ever done) then at different points in the match, Itachi can react to him even with "his regular eyes which are close to trash" as you said.

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 14, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Which has no baring on his ability to tank a stab to the gut



Perhaps, but it means he can take a lot of force and still come back kicking. Though, Itachi isn't going to be stabbing be when Sasuke couldn't.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Perhaps, but it means he can take a lot of force and still come back kicking. Though, Itachi isn't going to be stabbing be when Sasuke couldn't.



Itachi >> that version of sasuke so pointless comparison 

You still Haven't explained how bee is getting blind sided by clone feinting 

Which leaves him exposed


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 14, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Itachi >> that version of sasuke so pointless comparison
> 
> You still Haven't explained how bee is getting blind sided by clone feinting
> 
> Which leaves him exposed



Overall, due to the fact Sasuke didn't awaken Susanoo or obtaining Kagutsuchi? Of course. Was he better at CQC than Sasuke without the MS? Of course, not.

Sasuke had better tools, he had the Raiton to counter Bee... Itachi doesn't even have that. So his kunai attempts would fall short. He also displayed Sharingan prediction isn't sufficient against Bee, nor could he find an opportunity to use Genjutsu on Bee.
Now bear in mind that Bee is exactly like the one Itachi's facing i.e. no Hachibi and no Samehada meaning the opportunity that Itachi had to use Genjutsu on Bee (Bee's Samehada adjusted fighting style) is gone. In fact, when Itachi faced the Bee that Sasuke faced... he literally ran away to get Nagato's protection and use the MS.

No MS, no Nagato and Killer B starting with his 7 swords style... Itachi stands no chance without his Mangekyou.

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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Overall, due to the fact Sasuke didn't awaken Susanoo or obtaining Kagutsuchi? Of course. Was he better at CQC than Sasuke without the MS? Of course, not.
> 
> Sasuke had better tools, he had the Raiton to counter Bee... Itachi doesn't even have that. So his kunai attempts would fall short. He also displayed Sharingan prediction isn't sufficient against Bee, nor could he find an opportunity to use Genjutsu on Bee.
> Now bear in mind that Bee is exactly like the one Itachi's facing i.e. no Hachibi and no Samehada meaning the opportunity that Itachi had to use Genjutsu on Bee (Bee's Samehada adjusted fighting style) is gone. In fact, when Itachi faced the Bee that Sasuke faced... he literally ran away to get Nagato's protection and use the MS.
> ...



Of course he was better than sasuke without Ms 
In cqc 
Sasuke method of fighting was very direct itachi is not 
His whole game is feinting he will never engage bee directly 

Itachi isn't using any Kunai attempt directly 
He would fake it bee would tbink he has won 
It's a clone which explodes in his face 
Or a crow clone 

That's itachi method of fighting


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 14, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Of course he was better than sasuke without Ms
> In cqc
> Sasuke method of fighting was very direct itachi is not
> His whole game is feinting he will never engage bee directly
> ...



He would need to look into Bee's eyes. Look at Bee vs Itachi and Sasuke vs Bee and tell me when Bee was using his 7 swords style, when was the opportunity there to use Genjutsu on him? Clue: Sasuke got owned for trying to fight and Itachi ended up running away.


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## Rai (Jan 14, 2017)

Itachi solos

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Informative 1


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He would need to look into Bee's eyes. Look at Bee vs Itachi and Sasuke vs Bee and tell me when Bee was using his 7 swords style, when was the opportunity there to use Genjutsu on him? Clue: Sasuke got owned for trying to fight and Itachi ended up running away.




Why would he need to look into bee eyes when he is using clone feints
Or finger genjutsu ?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 14, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Why would he need to look into bee eyes when he is using clone feints
> Or finger genjutsu ?



What are those clones going to do when be goes nuts?

Also finger Genjutsu? That only works on people Chunin level shinobi or below hence Itachi didn't even use it in his top tier battles.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 14, 2017)

Bonly said:


> He makes a seal, points his finger and then the Genjutsu is used.


What? And while he's making that seal, what will bee be doing, scratching his ass? I think the obvious answer is no, Bee's gonna be all over the place, Itachi needs focus, and he has to* aim* his finger directly at bee, Im not sure how he's gonna do that when he's already gonna be having trouble with Bee's speed.



Bonly said:


> It's not rocket science nor is this some super complex process so I'm not seeing where you get the idea that Itachi needs extreme focus and aim to do the Genjutsu also I didn't think I would need to state Itachi making a seal for the Genjutsu the same way you haven't mentioned the process of B pulling out his swords and then setting them up in each place that he put them. Also B still lacks knowledge on said Genjutsu so it's not like he would purposely avoid looking at a finger.


The seal that he was shown using prior, was clearly visible and he was holding it for a while. This indicates that this is a seal that can't be rushed, and takes extreme focus, along with precise chakra control. Unlike Kakashi and Naruto, Bee isn't just gonna be staring at Itachi while he's using the genjutsu, or use the seal.



Bonly said:


> also I didn't think I would need to state Itachi making a seal for the Genjutsu the same way you haven't mentioned the process of B pulling out his swords and then setting them up in each place that he put them.


Who said he needs to pull out his swords to fight? Why couldn't Bee just blitz Itachi while he's using his seal, or trying to set up the genjutsu. Itachi can't hold the seal, set up the genjutsu, and point at bee, all before Killer Bee comes in for the blitz, or will he be able to do it during CQC with Bee.


Bonly said:


> Also B still lacks knowledge on said Genjutsu so it's not like he would purposely avoid looking at a finger.


My god. Show me feats of this finger genjutsu, that suggest it would hinder someone like Bee, who's kage level++ in terms of skill and battle experience. Its funny how people think its so effective, yet its rarely used by Itachi against strong opponents, hmm I wonder why.



Bonly said:


> Not sure if trolling or lacks a decent reading comprehension skill . As I just said "*outside of B using his acrobat fighting style*" and what do you show? B using his acrobat fighting style.


My bad, I looked over the part where you said outside his acrobat fighting style, no need to be so mean about it though.


Bonly said:


> The point of showing what Sasuke did was to show that even without the Sharingan, Itachi can still react to Killer B so unless you think B is gonna only use Acrobat the entire time(which isn't something he's ever done) then at different points in the match, Itachi can react to him even with "his regular eyes which are close to trash" as you said.


That example doesn't really hold up, Bee wasn't really taking it seriously until he brought out the swords. Unless you think a Bee writing notes while in combat with Sasuke is serious. I'm not disregarding that Itachi can't keep up with Bee, I'm just saying that his eyes won't allow him to get a vividly slowed down image of Bee, at which he can point his finger at. Basic point is Itachi isn't gonna land finger genjutsu on Bee who's gonna be all over the place, or fighting him up close. You're exampel shows that Bee likes to play around first with his opponent to see if how strong they are, and if their strong enough, Bee gets serious and pulls out his kenjutsu. His regular eyes are still trash, since he gets no pre cog, nor does he get the amazing vision of the sharingan, he's just a normal joe with above average speed, and reflexes.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 14, 2017)

Itachi has a 4.5 in Taijutsu and a 5 in Speed, so he is automatically superior in CQC in comparison to Sasuke. Sasuke has Raiton Variants, but that's trivial when Itachi's options within CQC are greater, especially due to his superior ninjutsu execution which increases his efficacy in CQC significantly. Speed is intrinsic and instrumental for CQC and Sasuke's reduced speed gives him little opportunity to even exploit openings with it in comparison to Itachi's execution.

The only thing remotely tailored for CQC is Chidori Nagashi, but that requires Sasuke to be stationary which lends your opponent such a devastating and conspicuous opening. This is a weakness that is incongruous with Itachi and Itachi's speed simply gives him significantly greater options in what he can employ in CQC. This was even illustrated in Hebi Sasuke vs. Itachi where even Sick Itachi's confounding speed was enough to deter Sasuke from making use of his Raiton Variants.

Simply yelling, "Raiton Variants," isn't an argument and I'm baffled as to why someone would believe a Weakened Taka Sasuke is somehow better than Sick Itachi let alone the real deal.


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## Bonly (Jan 14, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> What? And while he's making that seal, what will bee be doing, scratching his ass? I think the obvious answer is no, Bee's gonna be all over the place, Itachi needs focus, and he has to* aim* his finger directly at bee, Im not sure how he's gonna do that when he's already gonna be having trouble with Bee's speed.



Have you ever read a fight that involved Killer B before? Killer B isn't some random spinning top that's constantly moving non stop always attacking.  So it's not gonna be to hard for Itachi to deal when outside of the Shunshin he used to avoid Jugo's attack and acrobat, his speed isn't to dangerous and one of those two he has used for defense so yeah. 

To add to it Itachi isn't forced into just standing out in the open to doing such so even if you think Itachi's gonna have problems anyway, Itachi has access to clones. Itachi shot off a Katon, made a clone to stay behind and hold Nagato and then had his real self was above ready to attack upon which Killer B had no clue hence the "?!!". We have Itachi again throughout the fight being able to get behind and give Killer B the heads up on his position. Once a crow clone was destroyed it was able to cloud Sasuke's LoS long enough for Itachi to use his Genjutsu on Sasuke and Itachi can just summon them as well instead of using them as clones to cloud LoS for a second or two thus creating an opening for clones. Then you got Itachi creating clones in front of Kurenai without her or even noticing with Kakashi being the only one upon which he had the benefit of coming to the battle late and setting up his own clones. The Sharingan helps with reaction speed but not pure physical speed or hand seal making speed so even without the Sharingan Itachi can still physically pull off something like the above upon which with the help of a clone and what not Itachi would be able to freely make the seal and get his finger ready so when B does find the real Itachi, Itachi is gonna be all set ready to go with some space between them so again even if you still think Itachi would be hard pressed by B's speed, he has a way to get around it.



> The seal that he was shown using prior, was clearly visible and he was holding it for a while. This indicates that this is a seal that can't be rushed, and takes extreme focus, along with precise chakra control. Unlike Kakashi and Naruto, Bee isn't just gonna be staring at Itachi while he's using the genjutsu, or use the seal.



My dude. The guy made the seal in one panel, held it the seal in place for one panel and then stopped making the seal. Once again what about that simply process which took all of 2-3 seconds is hinting that it takes extreme focus and what not to suggest Itachi's gonna have a problem with using it? 



> Who said he needs to pull out his swords to fight? Why couldn't Bee just blitz Itachi while he's using his seal, or trying to set up the genjutsu. Itachi can't hold the seal, set up the genjutsu, and point at bee, all before Killer Bee comes in for the blitz, or will he be able to do it during CQC with Bee.



When has Killer B blitzed anyone outside of his tailed forms or when has he even tried such a method? Did he try this against Taka? The man and let Suigetsu pull up on him and then defended and took his sword and then let Jugo come to him for some good ol fashion 1V1. Did he try this against Kisame? Nah he went for blindsides and tried to attack from afar as well at first. Did he try this against the Jins? Well you know how that played out Anyone? Did he try such when he was in the face of Itachi and Nagato. Nope, in fact he got caught off guard by Itachi's Katon+clone feint. But I'm suppose to believe here he's likely gonna go for a blitz right off the bat huh. Yeah ok and while were at it Itachi's gonna constantly spam crows to cloud LoS and then he's gonna spam a shit ton of shadow clones with half of them being exploding clones as well!



> My god. Show me feats of this finger genjutsu, that suggest it would hinder someone like Bee, who's kage level++ in terms of skill and battle experience. Its funny how people think its so effective, yet its rarely used by Itachi against strong opponents, hmm I wonder why.



My god. Show me feats of Killer B without Gyuki to show me his Genjutsu defense to suggest he wouldn't hinder Killer B enough to ? In fact can show me how many people outside of Dojutsu users who are ever outright unaffected by a Genjutsu period or very little to the point where the caster couldn't form an attack? 


> My bad, I looked over the part where you said outside his acrobat fighting style, no need to be so mean about it though.



Coming from the guy who was mean and just laughing at what he misunderstood? It hurt my feeling to see those laughing emotes when I went to reply to the post, I went into my shower, played some Usher and cried in the fetal position for a good clean 2 hours so you don't have a right to say no need to be mean




> That example doesn't really hold up, Bee wasn't really taking it seriously until he brought out the swords. Unless you think a Bee writing notes while in combat with Sasuke is serious. I'm not disregarding that Itachi can't keep up with Bee, I'm just saying that his eyes won't allow him to get a vividly slowed down image of Bee, at which he can point his finger at. Basic point is Itachi isn't gonna land finger genjutsu on Bee who's gonna be all over the place, or fighting him up close. You're exampel shows that Bee likes to play around first with his opponent to see if how strong they are, and if their strong enough, Bee gets serious and pulls out his kenjutsu. His regular eyes are still trash, since he gets no pre cog, nor does he get the amazing vision of the sharingan, he's just a normal joe with above average speed, and reflexes.



Or it shows that Killer B without Acrobat isn't to speedy in CQC like you seem to think he is because outside of Acrobat I don't really recall him doing anything to special in CQC when it comes to the speed department. Though I get your point, my point was that Itachi doesn't necessarily need to vividly see a slowed down image of Killer B in order to be able to react to him, outside of Acrobat that is.

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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 14, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Yes but you aren't understanding. It's an additive. Which means taking away the sharingan is not a detriment to their natural reactions. It's losing the extra pre cog usually added to their vision. No doubt overall they are less reactive, but they are still pretty comparable to themselves without sharingan barring specificity of trajectory and mirco movements.


 It's not, but it's loss prevents them from using their natural reflexes properly: therefore, like you said, they're overall less reactive. The technicalities don't matter, because Itachi's reactions are now much lower. Sasuke had the reflexes to deal with KN0 Naruto's speed, but couldn't use them properly without the assistance of a fully-matured Sharingan. So even though he does have the natural reflexes to do so, he couldn't use them to their fullest extent without his Sharingan. This situation is no different, so no matter which way you cut it, Itachi is noticeably less reactive than in any other scenario. 



> There is a reason it is pseudo pre cognition. Pre cognition is not the same as enhanced reactions. V1 is an example of someone's natural reactions being buffed.
> 
> Sasuke did not train to copy Lee's shadow Taijutsu vs Yoroi. He pulled it out on the fly because he saw it once. Ala he he accomplished a speed without sharingan aiding his reflexes, that prior was enough to overwhelm his natural body speed. So Itachi still has all the experience and acclimation of all he's done in his life, including a ton from sharingan usage.


 I never said he did, I was referring to Sasuke being stated to have trained to properly mimic Lee's taijutsu against Gaara. Honestly, I'm not sure what you are even still trying to prove here. I understand that the Uchiha must have the natural reflexes to deal with what their Sharingan is processing, but they canonically cannot be used to their fullest extent without the aid of the Sharingan. The difference between having the Sharingan and not having is what:

Enabled Sasuke to keep up with Haku when he couldn't before. 

Enabled Sasuke to wreck KN0 Naruto when he was getting wrecked prior. 
Enabled Sasuke to dodge an attack from V1 Killer B.
Enabled Obito to fight pretty much evenly alongside Kakashi and take on two Jonin when he was noticeably outclassed prior. 
The list goes on and on, but I think I've provided enough examples. Acting like Itachi losing the Sharingan, which he uses 99% of the time, isn't going to have a noticeable effect on his reflexes in battle is nonsense. This is literally the weakest version of Itachi possible, taking on the guy who beat the shit out of Team Taka. Killer B nearly killed 3T Sasuke in five seconds, with his Acrobat, base Itachi stands no chance in CQC once B uses Acrobat. All he can do is attack him from afar, and his arsenal simply won't cut it and hasn't display anything that would indicate it's effective enough against B.


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## Dr. White (Jan 14, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> It's not, but it's loss prevents them from using their natural reflexes properly: therefore, like you said, they're overall less reactive. The technicalities don't matter, because Itachi's reactions are now much lower. Sasuke had the reflexes to deal with KN0 Naruto's speed, but couldn't use them properly without the assistance of a fully-matured Sharingan. So even though he does have the natural reflexes to do so, he couldn't use them to their fullest extent without his Sharingan. This situation is no different, so no matter which way you cut it, Itachi is noticeably less reactive than in any other scenario.
> 
> I never said he did, I was referring to Sasuke being stated to have trained to properly mimic Lee's taijutsu against Gaara. Honestly, I'm not sure what you are even still trying to prove here. I understand that the Uchiha must have the natural reflexes to deal with what their Sharingan is processing, *but they canonically cannot be used to their fullest extent without the aid of the Sharingan. The difference between having the Sharingan and not having is what:*
> 
> ...


This is where your argument is falling apart. Once again the sharingan is an additive. They don't get it until they are 13 and don't always actively use it. It provides a boost to natural reactions and allows one to mimick and acclimate the body to speeds it has faced before. You keep saying their natural reflexes can't be used to full extent and that is bogus. Itachi's hand speed, shushin speed, and movement speed has nothing to do with sharingan. Itachi used agility to get in close vs Bee twice catching him off guard. Losing sharingan is not going to put Itachi on a level lower than his physical speed.

Those instances are vs people they had just met and had no chance to get acclimated too. Once again Rock Lee straight up blitzed Sasuke. Sasuke just by seeing it once, could replicate said feat in base without having to activate his sharingan to do so. Which proves Itachi has naturally benefitted from fighting with sharingan and his natural agility gets acclimated. V1 Bee, Haku mirror speed, and KN0 are all buffs hence why the sharingan being an additive can help compensate for reactions... Base Bee is not >> Itachi in speed as we saw when they encountered eachother...Acrobat is the only thing Itachi would need sharingan to defend against along with shrouded speed.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 14, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> This is where your argument is falling apart. Once again the sharingan is an additive. They don't get it until they are 13 and don't always actively use it. It provides a boost to natural reactions and allows one to mimick and acclimate the body to speeds it has faced before. You keep saying their natural reflexes can't be used to full extent and that is bogus. Itachi's hand speed, shushin speed, and movement speed has nothing to do with sharingan. Itachi used agility to get in close vs Bee twice catching him off guard. Losing sharingan is not going to put Itachi on a level lower than his physical speed.


 It won't lower his actual speed, but it will affect how well it's utilized since his reflexes have been considerably lowered. 



> Those instances are vs people they had just met and had no chance to get acclimated too. Once again Rock Lee straight up blitzed Sasuke. Sasuke just by seeing it once, could replicate said feat in base without having to activate his sharingan to do so. Which proves Itachi has naturally benefitted from fighting with sharingan and his natural agility gets acclimated. V1 Bee, Haku mirror speed, and KN0 are all buffs hence why the sharingan being an additive can help compensate for reactions... Base Bee is not >> Itachi in speed as we saw when they encountered eachother...Acrobat is the only thing Itachi would need sharingan to defend against along with shrouded speed.


 Alright, that may be true but it's difficult to determine who is faster overall among B and Itachi anyway. Itachi's Shunshin being able to overwhelm Killer B doesn't make Itachi himself overall faster than Killer B in anyway, as Shunshin is a technique that is dependent on chakra control and has little to do with one's natural physical speed and reflexes according to it's official Databook entry. Take into account that was Edo Itachi, who as I've pointed out in my original post, is superior to regular Itachi is every sense of the word due to: 

Not having a terminal illness that significantly lowered all of his physical stats.
Being incapable of being able to go blind, and thus, has a Pseudo-EMS unlike the normal Itachi who is already partially blind. 

Being incapable of feeling pain and having constantly replenishing chakra reserves, unlike the normal Itachi who is in constant pain due to his illness and has poor reserves. 
So granting Itachi features of Edo Itachi is heavily flawed, let alone granting a Sharinganless Itachi the feats of a 3T Edo Itachi. But my overall main point is, Acrobat is the main thing that Killer B would use which is something Itachi has no actual counter against. All he can do is delay the inevitable by fleeing and using a Katon or Suiton, or by resorting to Kage/Karasu/Daibakuha Bunshins as B has shown enough speed to either evade or tank everything Itachi can dish out. While B's Acrobat or Lariat would one-shot Itachi.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 14, 2017)

I wonder what base Itachi can use to strain himself like the MS lmao.

How about killer bee gets roasted alive when he tries cqc?


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 15, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> An example of _actual_ Chunin are: Iruka, Mizuka, Demon brothers, and part one Shikamaru. An example of _actual_ low Jonin are: pre-Sharingan Kid Kakashi, Taiseki, 2-tomoe Obito (who paneled a low Jonin.) An example of _actual _elite/top Jonin are Part one Kabuto, Wave Kakashi, and Zabuza. Zabuza said Kakashi and himself could not defeat Haku, Haku easily beat Sasuke even though Sasuke easily blitzed 10 Zabuza clones, and then Haku lost badly to KN0.
> 
> You frankly have zero idea where the power bars for Chunin/Jonin ranks are actually located. KN0 has _always _been on the Jonin spectrum, even when Naruto genuinely was low Chunin level in base. And Naruto has been Chunin level in base since chapter 1, because he beat a Chunin instructor (that had just negged Chunin Iruka) without any real effort or injury.
> 
> ...


Itachi never placed KN Naruto into a genjutsu, he fought base Naruto and was able to overwhelm him. Base Naruto (w/o Kurama's interference) is at best a Chuunin-level. His only high level attack at that time are rasengan derived ninjutsu. One technique sadly doesn't equate to a low-kage status.



Sadgoob said:


> You do know Killer Bee was put into genjutsu while wearing his shades mutliple times against multiple opponents, right? I've said this many times but it's obvious that ninja *don't need to see their target to use visual genjutsu*, they just need their target to see the stimuli (their eyes, finger, their hands, the moon, etc.) This is well established _throughout _the manga.


The part in orange is false.

Did Itachi have the sharingan active before putting the genjutsu on Killer Bee?



Sadgoob said:


> The manga *literally* shows the opposite. Bee was *literally* unable to touch Itachi even when Itachi had no eyes on Bee and was tied up with Naruto. Bee was *literally* unable to keep track Itachi's very first movement.


Itachi was put on the defense, he's not going to beat Killer Bee like that. Killer Bee will outlast and exhaust him and then kill him.




Sadgoob said:


> Nowhere in the manga or databook is this stated or even implied. Even when Itachi's body was stated to have been eaten up by disease, he had a 3.5 strength which is frankly very good. Old Hiruzen didn't have a diseased body and only had a 3.0 strength, which is equal to Lee in the Forest of Death... where we saw Lee casually rip a tree out of the ground with one hand. We also saw Forest of Death Sasuke with a 2.0 strength kick a building-sized bear to death.
> 
> Many ninja that have 4.5 or 5/5 strength aren't muscly like the Raikage, and quite a few have high degree of finesse as well. There's zero reason to think a shinobi can't have strength and finesse. Several ninja with fairly average builds that are 4.5+ strength are: Gai, Lee, Human Path, Tsunade, Asuma, etc. and then you have short fat strong people like Jirobo or Preta Path, and then you have tall (not particularly muscled) strong people like Asura or Kisame.
> 
> Zetsu* literally* said Itachi should have been much stronger. Your opinion is based on *literally* nothing. It's also common sense that somebody about to die from an aggressive disease isn't at his peak physical strength in life. I have to do fitness tests frequently for my job and I know I'm nowhere near peak physical strength or speed when I have a common cold, and much, much worse if I'm fighting the flu. Neither of those are anything close to something that has me coughing up blood and is terminal.


You can twist the words to fit your delusion, but you are wrong my friend. Itachi's physical strength (healthy or otherwise) is at a 3.5. He's not a 'power-house' shinobi as you can tell, he doesn't have the stamina to be.



Sadgoob said:


> *There's literally nothing indicating that Killer Bee is better at chakra control than Wind Naruto, or that he'd even recongnize a realistic genjutsu in time to break out.* There's also nothing indicating that the crow genjusu or finger genjutsu are "basic." The finger genjutsu was literally in a chapter titled "Itachi's Power!" and Itachi was hyped as one of the greatest genjutsu users in the world. Kisame urgently asked for Itachi to help him when Kurenai put Kisame in "basic" hand genjutsu. Hiruzen was completely unable to break 10% Hashirama's "basic" hand genjutsu.




Except that Killer Bee was referred as the perfect jinchuriki and mastered an element to its fullest whereas Naruto had problems controlling Kurama to the point where he needed Yamato to restrain him from going out of control.



Sadgoob said:


> Someone didn't read the manga at all apparently? Itachi was the one that rushed Naruto & Killer Bee with a katon, then rushed them both with a clone feint, then rushed Killer Bee again with a shunshin where he aggressively used genjutsu and weapons. Bee needed help from *literally* five other individuals/entitities (Nagato, Naruto, Itachi, Samehada, Hachibi) in less than a chapter to keep up with Itachi's offensive onslaught. Bee didn't start mounting any sort of effective offense until prepping his 8 blades, which Itachi easily evaded and countered with kunai. There's nothing to suggest he couldn't dump a katon or genjutsu or suiton or exploding clone or clone feint him while he's holding all the blades. Itachi literally "fell back" to engage Naruto again (draw out the sealed crow) because Bee was that impotent to pressure Itachi.


That's great, but Itachi doesn't have the sharingan here, so he gets served like Sasuke. 



UchihaX28 said:


> If his ninjutsu canonically stalemated Kakashi's with ease and vehemently battled against CS Sasuke's tumultuous flames, then yeah, it's significantly stronger than Asuma's ninjutsu.


That comparison is entirely wrong.

The quality of Asuma's ninjutsu is equal to than Itachi's, they are both fire-based ninjutsu users and have an additional element, unlike Asuma Itachi's water-element cannot canonically put anyone down. Asuma can use his wind-element to overpower Itachi and Asuma still has stronger killing potential as he beheaded Hidan. He has proven his killing potential over the course of the manga, Itachi, however has always needed MS to deal with the heavy hitters. He needs MS to deal with the several of the Gokage individually. Back to the matter at hand, his genjutsu-prowess but the bulk of that is his sharingan and that is what puts him on par with the kage and abvoe people like Asuma. Take the sharingan out of the equation, he loses an integral part of his character. His drop will be what Kakashi's was from War Arc to Hokage (w/o Sharingan).



Sapherosth said:


> So how did Itachi cast sharingan genjutsu on Bee in the first place since he couldn't see whether or not Bee was looking at his eyes? He was wearing his shades back then too.
> 
> Also, I find it insane to call Wind Arc Naruto Chuunin level.



The sharingan assisted him, when you have an outlined map, it's much easier to work with. He doesn't have the sharingan in this match, therefore genjutsu doesn't work.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 15, 2017)

Dude, does a finger need to "see" Naruto's eyes to cast genjutsu, or does Naruto just to see the finger? How about the moon? Does the moon need to look people right in the eye? You should rethink your understanding of how visual genjutsu works.


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What are those clones going to do when be goes nuts?
> 
> Also finger Genjutsu? That only works on people Chunin level shinobi or below hence Itachi didn't even use it in his top tier battles.



What do you mean goes nuts ?
The idea of clones is to distract 
They don't have to do anything but draw bee attention away from the real attack 

Yes he didn't use it against top tier since every top tier failed to avoid eye contact 

That logic isn't comically flawed 

Finger genjutsu is only necessary if eye contact is avoided 

Now please explain how bee has a better genjutsu defence than naruto


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## Sapherosth (Jan 15, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> The sharingan assisted him, when you have an outlined map, it's much easier to work with. He doesn't have the sharingan in this match, therefore genjutsu doesn't work.



What? Lol

Since when does goggles prevent you from being captured in a visual genjutsu? You literally have zero evidence.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 15, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> What do you mean goes nuts ?
> The idea of clones is to distract
> They don't have to do anything but draw bee attention away from the real attack
> 
> ...



When he began to use the 7 sword style.

Clones won't be much of a distraction against Bee who'll literally steamroll through those clones with his 7 sword style.

Itachi specifically chose to use Sharingan Genjutsu in top tier battles, the only time he used finger Genjutsu was on Naruto who couldn't do anything at the time... not against Kakashi. That is quite telling. 

Are we going to go down this path where we need to prove every Jonin level ninja has better ability than Chunin level shinobi? Bee being an elite assumes he at least knows the basics of jutsu including how to break out of Genjutsu. Moreover, you haven't explained how Itachi can possibly overcome what Sasuke couldn't in CQC vs Bee, especially when Itachi consciously chose to flee and to use the MS.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 15, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> What? Lol
> 
> Since when does goggles prevent you from being captured in a visual genjutsu? You literally have zero evidence.


He's got shades, not goggles.

The underlying fact is that sharingan outlines chakra, chakra to the eyes as explained by Jiraiya is manipulated by genjutsu techniques. However, without the sharingan it's highly improbable to land a 'finger genjutsu' without being able to meet the users eyes - the reason why he succeeded with Naruto is because he had his sharingan (to guide his aim) and Naruto's eyes weren't covered. He has neither in this scenario.



Sadgoob said:


> Dude, does a finger need to "see" Naruto's eyes to cast genjutsu, or does Naruto just to see the finger? How about the moon? Does the moon need to look people right in the eye? You should rethink your understanding of how visual genjutsu works.



See above.

I'm going by manga, I don't know where you get your facts from though.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 15, 2017)

The so called criteria for using genjutsu


Ryuzaki said:


> He's got shades, not goggles.
> 
> The underlying fact is that sharingan outlines chakra, chakra to the eyes as explained by Jiraiya is manipulated by genjutsu techniques. However, without the sharingan it's highly improbable to land a 'finger genjutsu' without being able to meet the users eyes - the reason why he succeeded with Naruto is because he had his sharingan (to guide his aim) and Naruto's eyes weren't covered. He has neither in this scenario.
> 
> ...



Are you telling me that Itachi cannot use his finger genjutsu because Killer Bee has his shades on?


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## Muah (Jan 15, 2017)

Killerbee. Hes basically a perfect ninja. He was seen equal to minato.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 15, 2017)

Finger Genjutsu, something effective against Chunin levels. Is Itachi so screwed here that we're resorting to underestimating Bee so that Itachi has a shot?


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 15, 2017)

Itachi's Genjutsu is ranked as a 5 without the Sharingan, so I doubt it'd only be effective against Chuunin Level ninja, but we'll never know since Sharingan Genjutsu is more practical. I would assume it's easier to employ based on lack of knowledge which Bee doesn't have. The only realistic way the finger genjutsu would fail is if Bee moves far too quick for Itachi to react to which is not the case and Itachi has abstruse diversions which can halt Bee and create an opening for the genjutsu anyways.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 15, 2017)

I am sure Hebi  sauce had 5 in genjutsu. Does that mean he has a 5 without sharingan?


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 15, 2017)

professor83 said:


> I am sure Hebi  sauce had 5 in genjutsu. Does that mean he has a 5 without sharingan?



Genjutsu was a 4.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 15, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Genjutsu was a 4.


Oh yeah. Hiruzen was the one with 5.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 15, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Itachi's Genjutsu is ranked as a 5 without the Sharingan, so I doubt it'd only be effective against Chuunin Level ninja, but we'll never know since Sharingan Genjutsu is more practical. I would assume it's easier to employ based on lack of knowledge which Bee doesn't have. The only realistic way the finger genjutsu would fail is if Bee moves far too quick for Itachi to react to which is not the case and Itachi has abstruse diversions which can halt Bee and create an opening for the genjutsu anyways.



We don't know that. As far as I recall, there isn't a way to tell. Though you'd expect the Sharingan to be factored into his stats as it is a major part of his fighting.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 15, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We don't know that. As far as I recall, there isn't a way to tell. Though you'd expect the Sharingan to be factored into his stats as it is a major part of his fighting.



Sharingan would be accounted for in Ninjutsu and admittedly in Genjutsu (a tad bit due to knowledge of Sharingan Genjutsu), but I doubt they govern his stats. There's been enough evidence presented before that makes it more logical that it's a reflection of Base Stats.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 15, 2017)

@The Death & The Strawberry
I'm not sure why you are acting like it takes eons for Itachi to prep a finger genjutsu. You yourself admit that he needs only to weave that sign as "prep" but your implication is that he needs lots of time beforehand. Itachi was weaving signs faster than Sasuke or Kakashi could track with Sharingan, casting a finger genjutsu for him is a literal joke.


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## Dr. White (Jan 15, 2017)

Genjutsu is a hax. It's literally chakra being fine tuned and control inside the opponents mind to induce altered perceptions. This is not some Katon jutsu, and the argument that it stops working on opponents after a certain "level" which is arbitrary to the jutsu is nonsense. You need resistance to beat genjutsu, some are weaker than others (like Kurenai's bind < Itachi's sharingan bind) but you still have to work to beat it in specific ways.


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 15, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> The so called criteria for using genjutsu
> 
> 
> Are you telling me that Itachi cannot use his finger genjutsu because Killer Bee has his shades on?


It is what it is 

I just don't see Itachi hitting it off without the aid of the sharingan, he's never done without it so odds are he needs it for proper aim.


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## Dr. White (Jan 15, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> It is what it is
> 
> I just don't see Itachi hitting it off without the aid of the sharingan, he's never done without it so odds are he needs it for proper aim.


??? What does the sharingan have to do with his finger genjutsu being able to effect anyone who visually intakes his finger? his 3 tomoe requires eye contact, it's not koto and doesn't work around barriers. So Bee can be reached by visual genjutsu.

Saying because Itachi only used it once while in Shouten form that it can only work on said level as opposed to his regular more efficient options is one big argument from ignorance. especially given genjutsu is a hax.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 15, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Sharingan would be accounted for in Ninjutsu and admittedly in Genjutsu (a tad bit due to knowledge of Sharingan Genjutsu), but I doubt they govern his stats. There's been enough evidence presented before that makes it more logical that it's a reflection of Base Stats.



It is hard to use those stats fully as having a lot of knowledge can also boost your stats e.g. Jiraiya and his 4.5 in Genjutsu. It may govern his stats as it is the driving force behind his fighting, just like Kakashi. In a similar fashion, we cannot exclude Yamato's Kekkei Genkai from his states as it is the driving force behind his fighting.

The evidence doesn't matter unless the databook explicitly states it e.g. how some CS2 users say that it doesn't factor in CS2.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 15, 2017)

I'll answer all your arguments later, my cowboys are about to beat the packers, after being down by 14. Can't wait to see the face of Packer fanboys, lmao.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 15, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I'll answer all your arguments later, my cowboys are about to beat the packers, after being down by 14. Can't wait to see the face of Packer fanboys, lmao.


you may be right.
they are dead even 31-31 currently


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## Serene Grace (Jan 15, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> you may be right.
> they are dead even 31-31 currently


I got a scare because, it was 28-31, but then my boys pulled through


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## Parallaxis (Jan 15, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I got a scare because, it was 28-31, but then my boys pulled through


they got lucky with that 2 point conversion tho


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## Parallaxis (Jan 15, 2017)

thought they were about to go into overtime but deathberry was wrong.. 

OT:
I'm not leaning either way, i am seeing pretty convincing arguments on both sides.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 15, 2017)

I'm done with life.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 15, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I'm done with life.


they were making a comeback but it couldn't make up for their fail during the 3rd quarter


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 15, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It is hard to use those stats fully as having a lot of knowledge can also boost your stats e.g. Jiraiya and his 4.5 in Genjutsu. It may govern his stats as it is the driving force behind his fighting, just like Kakashi. In a similar fashion, we cannot exclude Yamato's Kekkei Genkai from his states as it is the driving force behind his fighting.
> 
> *The evidence doesn't matter unless the databook explicitly states it e.g. how some CS2 users say that it doesn't factor in CS2*.



 Yamato's Kekkei Genkai isn't an augmentation of one's abilities, so it's not analogous with the Sharingan.

 The bold is rather hypocritical because you're also forming an inference, so why're you applying such a double standard?

 I'm going to assume otherwise simply because Sakura's CES is instrumental to her combat ability yet her physical strength garners a 3 instead of a 5, but I ultimately agree that I shouldn't have presented Itachi's DB stat.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 15, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Yamato's Kekkei Genkai isn't an augmentation of one's abilities, so it's not analogous with the Sharingan.
> 
> The bold is rather hypocritical because you're also forming an inference, so why're you applying such a double standard?
> 
> I'm going to assume otherwise simply because Sakura's CES is instrumental to her combat ability yet her physical strength garners a 3 instead of a 5, but I ultimately agree that I shouldn't have presented Itachi's DB stat.



The evidence you cited assumes they know what goes in the databook. However, particularly databooks 1 and 2, explicitly state when something isn't factored into the states. That would have you believe that everything is considered unless specified.

Itachi's skill with jutsu, Nin and Gen including MS jutsu would be considered.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 15, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The evidence you cited assumes they know what goes in the databook. However, particularly databooks 1 and 2, explicitly state when something isn't factored into the states. That would have you believe that everything is considered unless specified.
> 
> Itachi's skill with jutsu, Nin and Gen including MS jutsu would be considered.



Not necessarily, it could also denote such specification as mundane and redundant. If we were to include everything, then we'd also factor in Gates, Kurama, CES, Sage Mode, Shunshin, and Cursed Seal when evaluating Databook stats which is seems somewhat incongruous with the Databook stats we're given.

Itachi's knowledge of MS Ninjutsu and Genjutsu should be intrinsic to the Databook's evaluation, but application of it should not be.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 15, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Not necessarily, it could also denote such specification as mundane and redundant. If we were to include everything, then we'd also factor in Gates, Kurama, CES, Sage Mode, Shunshin, and Cursed Seal when evaluating Databook stats which is seems somewhat incongruous with the Databook stats we're given.
> 
> Itachi's knowledge of MS Ninjutsu and Genjutsu should be intrinsic to the Databook's evaluation, but application of it should not be.



The databook clearly outline what they consider in the stats.
"Even if you might be able to take him on,"

Shunshin is Ninjutsu, if anything it goes to Ninjutsu. CES?

The databooks would go by what we'd seen. Sage Mode is its own type of jutsu, as are the CS, Kurama and gates... so they'd likely be regulated to the jutsu compartment. 

His application would be considered, I'd say. a 5 in Genjutsu means he's quite apt at using his Genjutsu including his MS, including his 5 in Ninjutsu which suggests he could do well with Amaterasu.

We can't assume he has Genjutsu he's never used though.

Databook 4's stats are different, though. You could give a character the benefit of the doubt that they'd have certain elemental jutsu, if the manga or other entries of the databook don't touch on that.


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