# Hiraishin (teleportation) vs Shushin (speed)



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Here is something that i hope people would understand.

*Hiraishin is no different than shushin in close range combat. * People's answer to everything concerning Yondaime is always Hiraishin, and how no one can deal with teleporttation in order to counter attack, evade, etc. This thread is meant to put this myth to rest. 

The myth is that Hiraishin is "unbeatable", this is the same people that once thought that rasengan wasn't copiable.  But before i start this, i want to make clear of one thing, Hiraishin doesn't kill!  You guys would be surprised to how many people i have seen saying this foolish thing in the battledome.

We have already have seen Hiraishin in action in the Kakashi Gaiden so there is no need to post the pics here.  We know that Hiraishin is "instant" but "instant" depend on where you use it.  If you watch the Gaiden you will get a good example of this. You had Yondaime fighting 50 shinobis in a battle field, yet he was able to teleport in an instant to save Kakashi and Rin from a certain doom who were in a total different battlefield. This is something that speed alone just can't do.  *This is what separate teleportation from speed, the amount of ground you can cover in an instant. * However, short distances is something speed *can* match teleportation, as well as the target being able to counter or evade.  

Here you have Gai's speed for example.  


*Spoiler*: __ 








Gai was in Team 7 position in an instant.

Here you have Sasuke post timeskip


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## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Here you have Itachi







and here you have instant movement and counter attacks/evading attacks.











In other words, people with high skills can avoid "instant kill". Notice how Yondaime never used Hiraishin in front of his enemy. The stone shinobi was hiding when he got tracked down, while the 50 shiobis where hiding behind a boulder, plus they didn't know Yondaime had arrived.  Which is why Hiraishin works for long range and ambushing, but at close range is no different than shushin.


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Nov 28, 2006)

you're wrong. Hiraishin will beat even Gai in that scene. Gai spend 0,000001 seconds to move there. Hiraishin tooks 0,00000000. Hiraishin wins over speed just by definition.


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## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Borat Sagdiyev said:


> you're wrong. Hiraishin will beat even Gai in that scene. Gai spend 0,000001 seconds to move there. Hiraishin tooks 0,00000000. Hiraishin wins over speed just by definition.




It won't matter, it will still be the same thing, plus two downsides, Yondaime must have a tag in place already before he can teleport or throw his kunai witht he tag on.


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## *uzumaki-naruto* (Nov 28, 2006)

hmm i always thought normally yondaime used harishin with a rasengan combo


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> It won't matter, it will still be the same thing, plus two downsides, Yondaime must have a tag in place already before he can teleport or throw his kunai witht he tag on.



well, that's the disadvantage of Hiraishin, but if we are just comparing both (assuming Hiraishin could be perfomed) there's no way of beating it. Once Yondaime performs Hiraishin you are a dead man cause you can't evade something that takes no time. Unless Yondaime is out of kunais or he, conveniently, forgot how to use rasengan or some other jutsu.


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## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Borat Sagdiyev said:


> well, that's the disadvantage of Hiraishin, but if we are just comparing both (assuming Hiraishin could be perfomed) there's no way of beating it. Once Yondaime performs Hiraishin you are a dead man cause you can't evade something that takes no time. Unless Yondaime is out of kunais or he, conveniently, forgot how to use rasengan or some other jutsu.




once again, there is no difference between the two a close range, you just saw what shushin does at close range.


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## Spanish Hoffkage (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> once again, there is no difference between the two a close range, you just saw what shushin does at close range.



Yondaime will be there before the fastest shunshin reaches whatever place. (Assuming Hiraishin could be performed) Also it's also presumable that Yondi is more skilled than your average jounin so...


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## xohoag (Nov 28, 2006)

that speed only works on weaker opponents, gai would never be able to just run behind kisame and kill him, whereas hiraishin would work just perfectly


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## Tsukiyomi (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> once again, there is no difference between the two a close range, you just saw what shushin does at close range.



If there is no difference, then why is it that Yondaime became legendary because of this single move?  Why is it that because of this single move, entire armies were told to run if they saw him?

If Shunshin (a very common ninja move) is truly the same as Hiraishin, why would the enemies of Konoha fear it at all?

The answer, they are not the same.

The databook flat out states they are different, that Hiraishin is faster, that it is more like Kuchiyose then Shunshin.  Meaning its a space time jutsu, not just a movement jutsu like Shunshin.


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## <insertnamehere> (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> once again, there is no difference between the two a close range, you just saw what shushin does at close range.


the speed you demonstrated in those pics are compared to people standing still.  of course when you see extreme speed compared to people who aren't moving, it will seem great.  now if you compare extreme speed with extreme speed, it won't seem AS great.  but if you compare extreme speed with something instantaneous, extreme speed will always seem as if it's standing still.  it's all relative.

it's sort of like when lee and sasuke fought for the very first time. lee was moving faster than sasuke and sasuke could see what lee was doing even though his body couldn't keep up.  however, no matter how great sasuke's eyes are, you can't really keep up with something that teleports because it can teleport to any random spot... you can only predict where it will appear.

to sum it all up, to a person without the eyes or the body to follow someone with extreme speed, teleportation and extreme speed will SEEM the same.  however, to somebody who can keep up with the most extreme of speed... teleportation will be like throwing a wrench in the gears.  it definately WILL be different.  that is relativity.


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## wiggely (Nov 28, 2006)

lets see shushin takes time to perform and harishin takes no time to perform.  omg harishin is faster.

it doesn't matter how fast shushin is it isn't institanious, harishin is.  and in battle nothing can defeate institanious speed (unless you are able to predict exactly where and when he will teleport to).


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## Superb Herb (Nov 28, 2006)

Yondy can be in as many places as he has seals or kunais in that means you have to kill him as soon as you see him, otherwise with his fast Shushin he could have thrown alot of kunais around and then he has already won.

You can't even be suprised on the battlefield because there is no time to form that thought. Simply once that jutsu is activated you are dead.

Thats one reason Naruto may not learn it till alot later, because then he would be way to overpowering and there would be no competition.


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## MS81 (Nov 28, 2006)

*uzamaki-naruto* said:


> hmm i always thought normally yondaime used harishin with a rasengan combo



that was in Narutimate Hero 3.

the 2 diff is that Hiraishin you have to put tags on object and sushin is c-ranked jutsu which can be upgraded as we seen Time skip Sasuke vs. chuunin exams Sasuke.


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## Clandestine (Nov 28, 2006)

I always speculated that the whole difference between the two was that one could be sensed while the other couldnt.


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## Muk (Nov 28, 2006)

The difference between shushin and Hirashin simply put.

Ideal conditions, Hirashin seal was already put etc.

Yondaime has a rasengan cast and is standing 20m away from his enemy. With shushin the enemy can expect him coming at him, there is a preception of time, time passes as Yondaime moves to his enemy.

Hirashin time does not pass. In the same time interval, where Yondaime was standing at 20m away, he is also where his seal is standing, thus breaking the lightspeed law of physics, but since this is Naruto it works. Be literrally bend time and space as he is there where his enemy is and since no time has passed, his enemy is still not prepared to for a counter and dies from the rasengan in his stomach or where ever.

It is the same as the following physics problem.

You want to put a space shuttle into a garage that is smaller then the space shuttle, close the gates and let it out the other side by opening the back door of the garage, when it is completly inside.

so it would be like this:
a) front garage is open.
b) shuttle flies in.
c) front gate closes.
d) back door opens.
e) shuttle flies out.

The garage is smaller then the shuttle, yet it works. It works because the action is done faster then light, thus bending time and space. 

Hope I didn't give you a headache when I talk like this  Cause I really cut out a lot of calculation and explanations to this physics problem. Just trust me on this. It works, it has been proven, and maybe if you look and search really hard, you'll find all the details on the internet somewhere. Oh I should put this on the thread bruce opened .


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## lazyeyeZ0o (Nov 28, 2006)

haku is incrediblely fast... but his moment was still able to be predicted.
hiraishin = no movement, no prediction of where the user might appear


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## bearzerger (Nov 28, 2006)

Ehm neither shunshin nor hiraishin are actually close range combat moves per se. They are both used to get from long range or mid range into close range combat and in that regard Hiraishin is clearly superior because it leaves the opponent no reaction time. No matter how fast your reaction speed is you have no chance to escape because you get attacked the exact moment the opponent appears.
Also you mentioned the scene where Yondaime battles 50 rock nin and just that scene clearly shows the difference between shunshin and hiraishin. Yondaime killed those shinobi without leaving them a chance to react a feat which would have been impossible for someone using shunshin, because unlike shunshin hiraishin also allows you to control the battlefield. It allowed him to appear at any place were there was a seal at any given moment. Furthermore it doesn't have the disadvantages of shunshin, which were explained also during the gaiden when Yondaime told Kakashi that chidori is an incomplete technique because he can only move in a straightforward attack and his speed is too fast to see the enemy counter. Hiraishin on the other hand is far more flexible it can be even used in midair when you can't change your direction the regular way.


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## BattousaiMS (Nov 28, 2006)

Erm the thing is shunshin isn't speed at all. What Gai and Itachi were doing weren't shunshin either. You see shunshin is like a short teleportation but it uses the natures elements as its escape pod. That's why you see Kakashi use leaves,  Haku use water mist and Yondaime use wind. What Gai did was basic speed and what itachi is also speed but nothing on Gai's level. The reason why he seems fast here is because everyone being concentrated of Kurenai's fall and it is known that if both persons speed is same the one falling down and getting up would be slower then the one runing behind her. The next segment is also not shunshin. It's Itachi's seal speed.


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## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

<insertnamehere> said:


> the speed you demonstrated in those pics are compared to people standing still.  of course when you see extreme speed compared to people who aren't moving, it will seem great.  now if you compare extreme speed with extreme speed, it won't seem AS great.  but if you compare extreme speed with something instantaneous, extreme speed will always seem as if it's standing still.  it's all relative.



???

since when did Yondaime used his teleportation against moving targets?

He didn't, in fact, they were all standing still.




> it's sort of like when lee and sasuke fought for the very first time. lee was moving faster than sasuke and sasuke could see what lee was doing even though his body couldn't keep up.  however, no matter how great sasuke's eyes are, you can't really keep up with something that teleports because it can teleport to any random spot... you can only predict where it will appear.



Sasuke doesn't need the eyes, but speed and intelligence.  We have already seen how many skill shinobis deal with speed, or in dangerous situation, they create clone, or go underground. 




> to sum it all up, to a person without the eyes or the body to follow someone with extreme speed, teleportation and extreme speed will SEEM the same.  however, to somebody who can keep up with the most extreme of speed... teleportation will be like throwing a wrench in the gears.  it definately WILL be different.  that is relativity.



again, there is no difference in close range with shushin and hiraishin, you won't "see" them.




Tsukiyomi said:


> If there is no difference, then why is it that Yondaime became legendary because of this single move?  Why is it that because of this single move, entire armies were told to run if they saw him?



Last time i remeber they were told to run fi you ran into him, it didn't say anything about hiraishin.  I mean, any army would run if they face Oro, Sandaime, etc.

Hiraisin unlike shushin have two things, instant teleportation in long distances and tags.

However, the difference won't be noticed in close range as shushin can move in an instant.



> If Shunshin (a very common ninja move) is truly the same as Hiraishin, why would the enemies of Konoha fear it at all?



They don't fear the *move*, the fear the *fighter*, just like they would have fear any kage level shinobi.



> The answer, they are not the same.



you are using a bad example, as they don't fear the move, but the shinobi.




> The databook flat out states they are different, that Hiraishin is faster, that it is more like Kuchiyose then Shunshin.  Meaning its a space time jutsu, not just a movement jutsu like Shunshin.



i never said it was movement, if you took time to read my thread, especially the tille of this thread, you know i have classified hiraishin as teleportation and shushin as speed.

They are different, because one is teleportation, can place tags, and can travel long distances in an instant.


however, in *close range* their is no difference.



xohoag said:


> that speed only works on weaker opponents, gai would never be able to just run behind kisame and kill him, whereas hiraishin would work just perfectly




Yondiame would need a tag behind Kisame, where Kisame can easily have a mizu bushin ready to take the attack.

just like Itachi and Kakashi did to each others.




Borat Sagdiyev said:


> Yondaime will be there before the fastest shunshin reaches whatever place. (Assuming Hiraishin could be performed) Also it's also presumable that Yondi is more skilled than your average jounin so...



If you are using short range, you won't.

Kakashi is creame the creame you know, so is Itachi.

You already saw that they thought of 2 moves ahead of them when attacking/counter attacking. Yondaime might be betting in that attack.


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## Superb Herb (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> ???
> 
> since when did Yondaime used his teleportation against moving targets?
> 
> ...



lol you just don't get it. 

When all of the forums is against you, you should realise that you are most likely wrong, it has already been explained why Hirashin is better and why he was feared, the mods should just close this topic.

If you don't get it after reading the posts on here then you are not smart enough to comprehend it.


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## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

KyuubiYondime said:


> lol you just don't get it.
> 
> When all of the forums is against you, you should realise that you are most likely wrong, it has already been explained why Hirashin is better and why he was feared, the mods should just close this topic.
> 
> If you don't get it after reading the posts on here then you are not smart enough to comprehend it.



lol, i'm most likely right. I already mention for what Hiraishin is good for, and why in close range it don't make a difference when comparing it to shushin.


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## Mickey (Nov 28, 2006)

I think you fail to understand the concept of teleportation. The difference between moving somewhere and teleportation is that there is * no movement with teleportation*, it by definition happens instantly. You are somewhere, then you are somewhere else *instantly*. No movement is faster than movement. Period. The time might seem negligible to you, but Kishi does not think so, and guess what? It's his opinion that matters. It's stupid to try and argue against this, whether or not the difference of .0000000001 is enough to make teleportation pointless, because in Kishi's world the discrepancy obviously does make a difference. Copying and pasting pictures from the manga and trying to argue about it changes nothing.


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## Kwheeler (Nov 28, 2006)

Well, even in short range the two techniques can't be the same.  Shushin may get you somewhere in an "instant", but if I'm correct in my interpretation of how Hiraishin works(still a bit fuzzy) then Yondy could literally travel the same distance as a shushin in the same instant, as in no time spent.  Also theres the question of perception, to someone like Naruto or Sakura Shushin and Hiraishin probly appear to be the same thing, but to someone like Gai or Kakashi, and especially someone like Jiraiya, Oro or Yondy, the difference is much clearer.


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## Superb Herb (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> lol, i'm most likely right. I already mention for what Hiraishin is good for, and why in close range it don't make a difference when comparing it to shushin.



Its almost sad that after some of these posts you can see the FACT that HIRASHIN is simply FASTER.

No matter how fast shushin is the enemy notices your gone and can AT LEAST THINK of a defense.

With HIRASHIN you would pull back your kunai and THEN INSTANTLY you would have a HOLE in your CHEST.


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## Kwheeler (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> lol, i'm most likely right. I already mention for what Hiraishin is good for, and why in close range it don't make a difference when comparing it to shushin.



Well, when you put it like that youre most likely wrong   The speed of someone's shushin(assuming it is based off the eprson's speed) will differ from person to person(ie. its unlikely for Naruto to shushin behind Gai).  And when comparing the tactical advantages of shushin to close range hiraishin, hiraishin still comes out on top.  Hiraishin basically leaves no blind spot because it takes no time to complete, in other words Yondy throws a kunai at you and suddenly appears behind you before you even have time to realise that the knife was anything special; when in the same situation if Yondy uses a shushin to appear behind someone they are given time to react to his speed.

Instant movement, even in close range, will almost always be inferior to teleportation.


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## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Kwheeler said:


> Well, even in short range the two techniques can't be the same.  Shushin may get you somewhere in an "instant", but if I'm correct in my interpretation of how Hiraishin works(still a bit fuzzy) then Yondy could literally travel the same distance as a shushin in the same instant, as in no time spent.  Also theres the question of perception, to someone like Naruto or Sakura Shushin and Hiraishin probly appear to be the same thing, but to someone like Gai or Kakashi, and especially someone like Jiraiya, Oro or Yondy, the difference is much clearer.




Hiraishin migth make a difference when dealing with Naruto, Sakura, but not with people like Oro, Gai, Kakashi, Itachi who are fast and always have a clone taking the damage just in case.




Mickey said:


> I think you fail to understand the concept of teleportation. The difference between moving somewhere and teleportation is that there is * no movement with teleportation*, it by definition happens instantly.



apaprently, you didn't read my thread at all. 



> You are somewhere, then you are somewhere else *instantly*. No movement is faster than movement. Period. The time might seem negligible to you, but Kishi does not think so, and guess what? It's his opinion that matters. It's stupid to try and argue against this, whether or not the difference of .0000000001 is enough to make teleportation pointless, because in Kishi's world the discrepancy obviously does make a difference. Copying and pasting pictures from the manga and trying to argue about it changes nothing.



They won't make a difference as seen in those images.


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## Mickey (Nov 28, 2006)

IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE BECAUSE KISHIMOTO SAYS IT DOES.

edit: also, I don't really understand that post. What is "they"? I just kind of made an assumption about what you meant. 



And you still don't get it. It doesn't matter how close to "instant" something is, because it is still not instant. Something that happens instantly is intrinsically faster than something that does not, no matter how close it is to instant. 

Now, I acutally did read your post, and  I saw that you argued that the speed difference doesn't matter, but what I also tried to explain to you is that it obviously does. If you had read my post, instead of just quoting it, you would have seen that was the point I was leading to.


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## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Kwheeler said:


> Well, when you put it like that youre most likely wrong



i was using the sasme technique as that guy. 



> The speed of someone's shushin(assuming it is based off the eprson's speed) will differ from person to person(ie. its unlikely for Naruto to shushin behind Gai).  And when comparing the tactical advantages of shushin to close range hiraishin, hiraishin still comes out on top.  *Hiraishin basically leaves no blind spot because it takes no time to complete, in other words Yondy throws a kunai at you and suddenly appears behind you before you even have time to realise that the knife was anything special*; when in the same situation if Yondy uses a shushin to appear behind someone they are given time to react to his speed.



This is a bad example, because throwing a kunai make Yondaime even slower, as he will be limited to the speed of the kunai.  We have already seen people who surround themselve with a defence or create a clones to take the hit, especially if they are dealing with powerful shinobis.




> Instant movement, even in close range, will almost always be inferior to teleportation.



I disagree, due tot he examples i have shown.

I hope hiraishin is brought back, so we can put an end to this.


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## Tsukiyomi (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> Last time i remeber they were told to run fi you ran into him, it didn't say anything about hiraishin. I mean, any army would run if they face Oro, Sandaime, etc.
> 
> Hiraisin unlike shushin have two things, instant teleportation in long distances and tags.
> 
> However, the difference won't be noticed in close range as shushin can move in an instant.



They were told to run if they saw the yellow flash. He is called the Yellow Flash BECAUSE of that move.

The enemies feared his reputation and renound, all of which came from this move.  So yes, they did fear this move.  Not to mention the fact that the Konoha ninjas were in AWE of this move.  

And according to the databook Hiraishin is reguarded as nothing more than a legend in Konoha these days.  Its such a fantasic and unbelievable move that they don't even believe it was real anymore.  Thats quite different from Shunshin which is a very low level ninja move.


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## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Mickey said:


> IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE BECAUSE KISHIMOTO SAYS IT DOES.
> edit: also, I don't really understand that post. What is "they"?



i already pontined out the obvious difference.

tell me to what "they" you refer to.


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## Muk (Nov 28, 2006)

I tell you, Hirashin makes you faster then light. That is why it's better then shushin. There is no other explanation for it  Physics prooves it to be faster then light ;D


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## Kwheeler (Nov 28, 2006)

> Hiraishin migth make a difference when dealing with Naruto, Sakura, but not with people like Oro, Gai, Kakashi, Itachi who are fast and always have a clone taking the damage just in case.



I think you fail to see this, however FAST those people are, they cannot counter Yondy mid-hiraishin because it executes faster that ANYONE could possible travel.  Using a clone jutsu to counter doesnt work either, unless they use the jutsu long before hiraishin is activated.

You seem to have trouble differentiating between SPEED, and SPACE TIME raping, there is a difference, no matter hos close the two people are to each other.  Even if shushin is instantaneous speed, hiraishin doesnt even take an instant, and when ninja on the level of Itachi, Oro and Yondy fight, an instant means life or death.


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## Spy_Smasher (Nov 28, 2006)

In all cases, your example pages depicted mismatches. One combatant was significantly faster than the other. What would happen, I wonder, if Gai faced Itachi in a drawn-out fight, however.

Gai's speed is enourmous. Staggering. But so is Itachi's and he has a high-level Sharingan. Gai attacks, moving behind Itachi in the merest split-second at a speed few others could follow. Unfortunately, because his own speed and reflexes are so high, Itachi is able to predict the direction of Gai's attack and defend himself. Itachi sees that Gai is going to attack from the high left rear. He blocks. Then attacks at super-speed himself. Gai blocks. And so on ... becuase they are evenly matched in speed.

With Hiraishin, there is no way to predict the attack vector. Right? Left? Above? Below? With no continuous movement, there is no way to know.

Even at hand-to-hand ranges, Hiraishin is a huge advantage.


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## Draffut (Nov 28, 2006)

Someone else can use Shushin to dodge your Shushin.

Hirashin is instant, they wont have time to use Shushin to dodge it.

Shushin takes a large amount of Chakra, Hirashin doesn't.

Shushin if used excessivly can tear your muscles in the same way the first couple gates do.  Teleportation does not do this.


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## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

Race from Hawaii to Paris
GO!

Teleportation beats speed any day.


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## Kwheeler (Nov 28, 2006)

DeepThought said:


> Race from Hawaii to Paris
> GO!
> 
> Teleportation beats speed any day.



same goes for close range, race from the kitchen table to the fridge, teleportation gets you there before the other guy takes his first step.


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## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Tsukiyomi said:


> They were told to run if they saw the yellow flash. He is called the Yellow Flash BECAUSE of that move.



I have never said that he wasn't known for that move. I said that they fear the figher, not the move. Yes, they go hand in hand, but as you know Yondaime isn't just hiraishin.  Yondaime could have easily use gamabuinta on them and squash them, but he didn't.

But one of the most important reasons why they mentioned his NICKNAME was because they didn't know his name, just his nickname!

What are they going to call him, sensei?l ol

Hell, we the reader don't know his name either! 

We only call him Yondaime because he became a Hokage later, notice how Kishi didn't use Yondaime's name in the Gaiden, but had him called the entire time, Sensei.




> The enemies feared his reputation and renound, all of which came from this move.  So yes, they did fear this move.



They haven't seen the move, so how can they be afraid of it! 

They haven't seen him in a fight nor this move. They only heard rumors. 
There is a difference my friend.




> Not to mention the fact that the Konoha ninjas were in AWE of this move.



not to brag, but this is pointless, you want to know how many time Konoha Jounins have being awe by seeing other moves? A LOT! 



> And according to the databook Hiraishin is reguarded as nothing more than a legend in Konoha these days.  Its such a fantasic and unbelievable move that they don't even believe it was real anymore.  Thats quite different from Shunshin which is a very low level ninja move.




People know this move, as you had witness to it, especially those jounins in the Gaiden, Rin, espcially Kakashi who saw first hand the move and how it works. Meaning that the Sannin must have seen it too.




Kwheeler said:


> I think you fail to see this, however FAST those people are, they cannot counter Yondy mid-hiraishin because it executes faster that ANYONE could possible travel.  Using a clone jutsu to counter doesnt work either, unless they use the jutsu long before hiraishin is activated.



We have seen that casting those jutsu don't take anytime at all, especially those of clones and defense as we never get to see them being perform.



> You seem to have trouble differentiating between SPEED, and SPACE TIME raping, there is a difference, no matter hos close the two people are to each other.  Even if shushin is instantaneous speed, hiraishin doesnt even take an instant, and when ninja on the level of Itachi, Oro and Yondy fight, an instant means life or death.




Again, it won't matter a close range.

reason, why Yondaime hasn't use hiraishin like that in the open, but in hiding for ambushes.



Spy_Smasher said:


> In all cases, your example pages depicted mismatches. One combatant was significantly faster than the other. What would happen, I wonder, if Gai faced Itachi in a drawn-out fight, however.
> 
> Gai's speed is enourmous. Staggering. But so is Itachi's and he has a high-level Sharingan. Gai attacks, moving behind Itachi in the merest split-second at a speed few others could follow. Unfortunately, because his own speed and reflexes are so high, Itachi is able to predict the direction of Gai's attack and defend himself. Itachi sees that Gai is going to attack from the high left rear. He blocks. Then attacks at super-speed himself. Gai blocks. And so on ... becuase they are evenly matched in speed.
> *
> ...



Yes there is, as that were tags/kunais comes in, making easy to spot where Yondaime is going to teleport to.

Yoniame simpyl can't telepot just like that, he need tags in place.




Draffut said:


> Someone else can use Shushin to dodge your Shushin.
> 
> Hirashin is instant, they wont have time to use Shushin to dodge it.
> 
> ...




lol, have you even read teh manga?

since when does shushin uses a lot of chakra and tear up your muscles? 




DeepThought said:


> Race from Hawaii to Paris
> GO!
> 
> Teleportation beats speed any day.



there goes another one who didn't read what i said.


----------



## Dirk Diggler (Nov 28, 2006)

The "close range" argument fails, the time it takes you to stretch out your arm to punch me with Shushin, I've already bitch slapped you with Hiraishin.


----------



## Mickey (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> i already pontined out the obvious difference.
> 
> tell me to what "they" you refer to.



What? I have no idea what you're even talking about anymore. The last sentence of your previous post is what I was referring to, "They won't make a difference as seen in those images.". I assumed you meant the difference in speeds, because otherwise that statement makes absolutely no sense and is irrelevant to anything I said. 

anyway, I'm going to try and explain this one last time. The scenarios you're thinking of aren't possible (ie, Itachi fighting Yondi to match speed). This means your argument is based on inductive reasoning (which there is obviously no problem with in of itself). Being an inductive argument, however, means that your argument can never be more than PROBABLY true, because the basis of your argument is an extrapolation of other events that have not, or, as in this case, cannot happen. An inductive argument therfore gains its strength from its content. As I have tried to explain to you, the content of your argument is weak and therefore does not make it easier to accept the conclusion. 

The premises of your argument contained such weak arguments as "since Itachi can move real, real fast in this picture, he can probably move faster than Hiraishin". Since we have never seen Itachi face Hiraishin you cannot say that he, or anyone else (excepting one using other teleportation jutsu) would be faster than it when all evidence points to the contrary. There is nothing, and I repeat NOTHING that suggests Itachi could match Hiraishin's speed at close range. And yeah, when I say nothing, I am keeping your weak photo "evidence" in mind. None of those pages help your argument.


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

> there goes another one who didn't read what i said.


There goes another on who won't read what EVERYONE else has said.


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Dirk Diggler said:


> The "close range" argument fails, the time it takes you to stretch out your arm to punch me with Shushin, I've already bitch slapped you with Hiraishin.




Correction, you mut first throw a special kunai to teleport!

that "weakens" the technique as it also let the opponent know where you are going to teleport.

second, the time will be the same, the speed/teleportation is the same at close range.




DeepThought said:


> There goes another on who won't read what EVERYONE else has said.



I have read what they said, you on the other hand just came out of nowhere charging head first into a concrete wall. 

i said there is no competition in long range, which is what make hiraishin so unique.


----------



## Kwheeler (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> Correction, you mut first throw a special kunai to teleport!
> 
> that "weakens" the technique as it also let the opponent know where you are going to teleport.
> 
> ...



you still don't get it, even at close range speed and teleportation *ARE. NOT. THE. SAME.*


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

> Correction, you mut first throw a special kunai to teleport!


Correction, you don't have to throw the kunai.  Yondaime gave one to Kakashi and then teleported to him from miles away.


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## Mickey (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> second, the time will be the same, the speed/teleportation is the same at close range.




How can you possibly say that, especially after you purported to have read my post? SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS INSTANTLY IS ALWAYS FASTER THAN SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T. PERIOD. 


God damn.


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

God Damn indeed.


----------



## Mickey (Nov 28, 2006)

I think a brick would be more helpful...put me out of my misery


----------



## Tsukiyomi (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> Correction, you mut first throw a special kunai to teleport!
> 
> that "weakens" the technique as it also let the opponent know where you are going to teleport.




Lets your opponent know where you are going to teleport?  How?  The seal is a marker, he doesn't have to teleport ON that seal, it just lets him know the nearby area to teleport to.  Thats why when he teleported behind the rock-nin he didn't teleport right on the guys foot (where the seal was) he teleported behind him with a knife to his throat (which indicates he can control his body's position when he arrives).

So he only has to get a seal nearby his opponent (or just touch his opponent to leave a seal) and the battle is over.

Its not that hard to scatter seals.  Look at it this way, if Shunshin is really the same like you say (which is isn't) he could just use shunshin to scatter seals all over the battlefield.

I still fail to see how you can be so blind as to not see the difference between speed and teleportation.


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Mickey said:


> What? I have no idea what you're even talking about anymore. The last sentence of your previous post is what I was referring to, "They won't make a difference as seen in those images.". I assumed you meant the difference in speeds, because otherwise that statement makes absolutely no sense and is irrelevant to anything I said.



i see. Yes, by they in that instance i meant hiraishin and shushin.




> anyway, I'm going to try and explain this one last time. The scenarios you're thinking of aren't possible (ie, Itachi fighting Yondi to match speed). This means your argument is based on inductive reasoning (which there is obviously no problem with in of itself). Being an inductive argument, however, means that your argument can never be more than PROBABLY true, because the basis of your argument is an extrapolation of other events that have not, or, as in this case, cannot happen. An inductive argument therfore gains its strength from its content. As I have tried to explain to you, the content of your argument is weak and therefore does not make it easier to accept the conclusion.



you have your opnion in how hiraishin for fare in close range, i gave my opinion on how it would fare against shushin in close range using examples.

Kishi didn't deny what i'm saying, he just said there is a difference bewteen them, as we know the difference. In his statement he is't mentioning close range, but overall. Long distances, tag, etc.



> The premises of your argument contained such weak arguments as "since Itachi can move real, real fast in this picture, he can probably move faster than Hiraishin".



I never said that neither of them can move faster that hiraishin, but that they can deal with it by either counter attacking or defence.
I think people have misunderstood my argumement. I'm not saying Y character is faster than hiraishin, what i'm saying is that they is no difference in close range.




> Since we have never seen Itachi face Hiraishin you cannot say that he, or anyone else (excepting one using other teleportation jutsu) would be faster than it when all evidence points to the contrary.



I would like for you to point out in any of my posts where i have said that Itachi is faster than hiraishin?



> There is nothing, and I repeat NOTHING that suggests Itachi could match Hiraishin's speed at close range. And yeah, when I say nothing, I am keeping your weak photo "evidence" in mind. None of those pages help your argument.




Once again, where are yuo gettign this fact, that i said that Itachi is faster than hiraishin? 




DeepThought said:


> There goes another on who won't read what EVERYONE else has said.



I have read what they said, you on the other hand just came out of nowhere charging head first into a concrete wall. 

i said there is no competatrion in long range, which is what make hiraishin so unique.



Kwheeler said:


> you still don't get it, even at close range speed and teleportation *ARE. NOT. THE. SAME.*



*the are the same.*




DeepThought said:


> Correction, you don't have to throw the kunai.  Yondaime gave one to Kakashi and then teleported to him from miles away.



lol, you just proved to me once again that you didn't read my thread, because if you read my thread, you would know that i mentioned that!


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Mickey said:


> How can you possibly say that, especially after you purported to have read my post? SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS INSTANTLY IS ALWAYS FASTER THAN SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T. PERIOD.
> 
> 
> God damn.



God damn indeed!

In close range the difference won't make a difference!



Mickey said:


> I think a brick would be more helpful...put me out of my misery



not just yet


----------



## Mickey (Nov 28, 2006)

I was using Itachi as an example, but I realize I worded that badly. I was referring to the picture of Itachi that you used as evidence. I am aware that you are not comparing any characters, but rather the jutsu....but I think you're the one missing everyone elses' points. 

"Kishi didn't deny what i'm saying, he just said there is a difference bewteen them, as we know the difference. "

Yes, he essentially he did. Yondi's whole reputation as a ninja was built on that technique. It is therefore a reasonable extrapolation that the S-rank specialized technique that made Yondi known as the Yellow Flash, and one of the strongest ninjas of all time is faster than the genin-level speed technique. Even close range. You say the speed difference doesn't make a difference, but all evidence in the manga and databooks point the other way. That is why everyone thinks you are wrong.

Like you said, there is a difference between the two techniques. But the difference is that Hiraishin is faster. We're talking in circles but I'm going to say it one more time. What you call a negligible difference in speed at close range is not negligible to Kishimoto THE AUTHOR OF THE MANGA. I'll put it this way:
*kishimoto says Yondi is very strong
*The databook suggests Yondi is so strong largely because of Hiraishin
*Hiriahin is a teleportation technique
*teleportation is invariably faster than any other type of movement
-therefore, Yondi's teleportation technique is faster than any other, no matter the range.

I think it's far easier to accept that argument than yours, mainly because it actually makes sense and is supported by evidence. But hey, that's just me.


----------



## MS81 (Nov 28, 2006)

I agree that Hiraishin *could be faster* but there's no proof.
maybe shisui and Yondaime will have a battle to see what's better.


----------



## Genesis (Nov 28, 2006)

Here's an example for you since people have really already answered you and i can't be bothered to recycle and add.

Two Kage level nins like Yondaime and Itachi face off. Both know shunshin however Yondaime also knows Hiraishin. They are at a level where they are able to anticipate each others attacks and the speed isn't overwhelming on either side. However instead of punching Itachi, Yondaime lands a marker.

The Hiraishin has essentially been set up for him to land a final blow since he can summon himself to the vicinity of that seal. This is where the difference in speed plays a part since you can't anticipate something which is instant.

You can train your eyes to a level where you're able to catch the slightest of movements and prepare a defense. So even if you have 0.000001 seconds to react, you will be able to do something since you are at that level.

However if there is no time at all which is the case with Hiraishin, you're dead. That 0.000001 second span, contrary to what you think makes a big difference.


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

No difference in close range?
Here's a practical example.

Let's say you are completley surrounded.  Would you rather:
A: Escape as fast as you can
B: Escape instantly

Whatever... this is a useless argument since BMG is a brick wall.

I'm going to Hirashin out of here... cause it's faster.


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Tsukiyomi said:


> Lets your opponent know where you are going to teleport?  How?  The seal is a marker, he doesn't have to teleport ON that seal, it just lets him know the nearby area to teleport to.  Thats why when he teleported behind the rock-nin he didn't teleport right on the guys foot (where the seal was) he teleported behind him with a knife to his throat (which indicates he can control his body's position when he arrives).



Notice how close he was to the enemy and that he appear from the rigth side where he had place the tag, meaning that he will appear very very close to the enemy. Which means, you can keep a distance from the kunai/tag, and you will know that Yondaime won't teleport near you.




> So he only has to get a seal nearby his opponent (or just touch his opponent to leave a seal) and the battle is over.




err no, because apparently, you forget that people can move in an instant, or have clones as baits among other thing.



> Its not that hard to scatter seals.  Look at it this way, if Shunshin is really the same like you say (which is isn't) he could just use shunshin to scatter seals all over the battlefield.



then you just keep moving from battlefield to battlefield unless you want to tell me Yondaime had taged the whole world! 

and this is not mentioning the use of clones or if the enemy decides to go underground, because that would mean, hirashin is useless.



> I still fail to see how you can be so blind as to not see the difference between speed and teleportation.




i'm not blind, i see the difference in long range among other things, but there is no diffence enough in close range.

so you just can't call me blind, because i'm not.

if i was blind how can i even see and reply to your post!


----------



## MS81 (Nov 28, 2006)

Genesis said:


> Here's an example for you since people have really already answered you and i can't be bothered to recycle and add.
> 
> Two Kage level nins like Yondaime and Itachi face off. Both know shunshin however Yondaime also knows Hiraishin. They are at a level where they are able to anticipate each others attacks and the speed isn't overwhelming on either side. However instead of punching Itachi, Yondaime lands a marker.
> 
> ...


very much sums it up dude reps.


----------



## Mickey (Nov 28, 2006)

You keep saying "no difference" but you don't mean that, I think. You mean negligible difference. That's why people are getting so confused by your posts. But even so the difference isn't negligible, as so many have tried to explain to you (even the manga )


----------



## Tsukiyomi (Nov 28, 2006)

mangekyousharigan81 said:


> I agree that Hiraishin *could be faster* but there's no proof.



No proof?  You mean aside from the fact that it was directly stated in the databook to surpsass the speed of shunshin?


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Mickey said:


> I was using Itachi as an example, but I realize I worded that badly. I was referring to the picture of Itachi that you used as evidence. I am aware that you are not comparing any characters, but rather the jutsu....but I think you're the one missing everyone elses' points.
> 
> "Kishi didn't deny what i'm saying, he just said there is a difference bewteen them, as we know the difference. "
> 
> Yes, he essentially he did. Yondi's whole reputation as a ninja was built on that technique. It is therefore a reasonable extrapolation that the S-rank specialized technique that made Yondi known as the Yellow Flash, and one of the strongest ninjas of all time is faster than the genin-level speed technique. Even close range. You say the speed difference doesn't make a difference, but all evidence in the manga and databooks point the other way. That is why everyone thinks you are wrong.



the manga doesn't prove i'm wrong, the manga and databook, point out the difference, long range, tag, and space/time.

The databook doesn't compare shushin and hiraishin in close combat.




> Like you said, there is a difference between the two techniques. But the difference is that Hiraishin is faster.



faster in long and mid range, not in low range.



> We're talking in circles but I'm going to say it one more time. What you call a negligible difference in speed at close range is not negligible to Kishimoto THE AUTHOR OF THE MANGA. I'll put it this way:
> *kishimoto says Yondi is very strong



there a shit lot of strong people.



> *The databook suggests Yondi is so strong largely because of Hiraishin



yes, and that doesn't make him faster in close range. You also ahve Shusui of the shushin for that matter, so imagine how fast that guys was.



> *Hiriahin is a teleportation technique



yes



> *teleportation is invariably faster than any other type of movement
> therefore, Yondi's teleportation technique is faster than any other, no matter the range.



false, in low range it won't make a difference.



> I think it's far easier to accept that argument than yours, mainly because it actually makes sense and is supported by evidence. But hey, that's just me.



My thing are supported by evidence too, yet, Kishi left a hole, he never compared shushin and hiraishin in close range.


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## Mickey (Nov 28, 2006)

Tsuki is right. And even if it didn't say so in the databook, that is, assuming there was no direct proof either way, it is still more logical to believe Hiraishin faster, simply because it was the technique that led to Yondi's success.


----------



## Mickey (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> false, in low range it won't make a difference.



It's not false. You can hold that it wouldn't make a difference, BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE MY POINT FALSE. For the umpteenth time, TELEPORTATION, BY DEFINITION, IS FASTER THAN ANYTHING ELSE. No matter what, no matter where.

And one more thing: You keep saying hiraishin is not faster short range but there is no evidence of this. You have no evidence to support what you say (and don't try to use the pictures you used in your first post, those are useless) and we all have provided evidence to prove our (supported) conclusions make more sense than yours, which is entirely baseless.


----------



## Fenix (Nov 28, 2006)

MANGA PAGES CANNOT ILLUSTRATE SPEED ACCURATELY

ALSO "INSTANT" IS A DRAWING STYLE AND ALSO DEPENDS ON WHOSE PERSPECTIVE THE AUTHOR WANTS YOU TO SEE THE ACTION

In other words, instant movements as demonstrated by Gai, Itachi and Sasuke are not truly instant. 

Please please understand that THIS IS A MANGA.


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Genesis said:


> Here's an example for you since people have really already answered you and i can't be bothered to recycle and add.
> 
> Two Kage level nins like Yondaime and Itachi face off. Both know shunshin however Yondaime also knows Hiraishin.



i don't want to turn this into a Itachi vs Yondaime.

so lets just say this once.



> They are at a level where they are able to anticipate each others attacks



Itachi has the sharingan, making him more likely to anticipate all that Yondaime throw at him. He is after all the greatets genius of all time, plus anbu captain by the age of 13.



> and the speed isn't overwhelming on either side.



we haven't seen Yondaime normal speed, but hiraishin.



> However instead of punching Itachi, Yondaime lands a marker.



To this day, no one has ever lay their fingers on Itachi, only his clone which are meant for that.




> The Hiraishin has essentially been set up for him to land a final blow since he can summon himself to the vicinity of that seal. This is where the difference in speed plays a part since you can't anticipate something which is instant.



Itachi can easily anticipate anything, as seen with most skilled shinobis they made they lay traps before the figth even start, including clones or being underground.

Itachi has the speed to match hiraishin in close combat, after all this is Itachi who killed Shusui Shushin, so imagine how fast his shushin must be.




> You can train your eyes to a level where you're able to catch the slightest of movements and prepare a defense. So even if you have 0.000001 seconds to react, you will be able to do something since you are at that level.
> 
> However if there is no time at all which is the case with Hiraishin, you're dead. That 0.000001 second span, contrary to what you think makes a big difference.




Nope, as there is no difference, not to mention that highly skill shinobi always lay traps before a fight. We have seen this multiple times.


----------



## Chi (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> that "weakens" the technique as it also let the opponent know where you are going to teleport.


 
lol.

Will opponent sit and wait when Yondaime teleport there? Do you think that if Yondaime placed a tag he will teleport there in set time, or somthn?

Yes, you WILL know that Yindaime will teleport there, but what it really gives you?

You think it's like: you two are fighting and bam Yondaime disappeared, so you realize that he teleported and you turn around to tag to face Yondaime.
Wrong.

The moment you see that Yondaime disappeared Yondaime is already where tag is. There is no time to actually "realize" it because it's instant.
In case of "fast movement" you have (even if tiny little) time to realize and take some actions. In this case there is NO time at all..

In those pictures Gai flashes in front of mere genins. Their eyes are just incapable of catching such movements.
Do you think Gai could beat some high ranked jounin with mere this?

How about fighting an Uchiha, or Hyuuga? They can predict very fast and catch even the fastest movements. So Gai can be fast but still be caught by Hyuuga, or Uchiha. Hirashin can't be caught by the eye, because there is nothing to catch.

I agree.. There is no difference in close combat if you fight against some no namers. But it's the same like "there is no difference between boxing champ and teenage guy if they fight a newborn".


----------



## Uzumaki Yondaime (Nov 28, 2006)

Aren't we just dealing with an ignorant guy now?  I mean honestly doesn't Yondaime have both at his disposal so.... whats the whole argument about?  Plus to settle all your little arguments, Hirashin is just a teleportation technique, it just gets you from point A to point B and thats all.  Yondaime has super fast reflexes and speed in order to pull off teleportations from one point to the next in less than a second.  

Look at that part in Kakashi Gaiden where he teleports right in front of the Rock Jounin which is swinging his katana down at Kakashi.  Yondaime appeared right in front of them, grabbed Kakashi, left a seal on the Rock-nin's foot and teleported back to the hideout instantly.  Hirashin only got him to and back, it's his own speed and reflexes that are at work here.  Also that other instance where he supposedly took out fifty so Rock ninjas in the blink of an eye.  That quite fast there if you think about it, a guy who can teleport between 50 places and kill all those individuals immediately.


----------



## Mickey (Nov 28, 2006)

Lol, you're talking about Itachi again. DIdn't I explain that you can't start saying Itachi would do this and that without proper proof? Especially statements like, "Itachi has the speed to match hiraishin in close combat, after all this is Itachi who killed Shusui Shushin, so imagine how fast his shushin must be."

If you can't see how ridiculous it is to refer to a death we haven't seen as evidence of Itachi's speed ( as we have no idea how it really happened) then it is impossible to reason with you.


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Mickey said:


> It's not false. You can hold that it wouldn't make a difference, BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE MY POINT FALSE. For the umpteenth time, TELEPORTATION, BY DEFINITION, IS FASTER THAN ANYTHING ELSE. No matter what, no matter where.



and again, the tiny difference won't matter in close range.



> And one more thing: You keep saying hiraishin is not faster short range but there is no evidence of this. You have no evidence to support what you say (and don't try to use the pictures you used in your first post, those are useless) and we all have provided evidence to prove our (supported) conclusions make more sense than yours, which is entirely baseless.




I already proved how fast shushin is in close range, you nor the manga has shown or prove how fast hiraishin is close range. 

I'm stating what we have seen and read.


----------



## Chi (Nov 28, 2006)

The botom line is: As long as there are ninjas who can react to very (very very...) fast movements in close combat, the difference between hirashin and shushin is plain obvious..


----------



## Mickey (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> I already proved how fast shushin is in close range, you nor the manga has shown or prove how fast hiraishin is close range.




No, you haven't proven anything. No one is convinced by your arguments, don't you see that? Now there's proof of something! Hiriashin hasn't been shown in the manga because Yondi is dead. I've already explained that we're having an argument based on inductive logic, which means both of our arguments are unprovable by definition. You can, however, make reasonable assumptions about things, and yours are not reasonable as I have tried to explain.

I'm going to stop at this point, because your arguments are groundless and have basically been reduced to "No, you're wrong!". Also, I suspect there is some sort of language gap because you have contradicted yourself a few times, which frankly confuses the hell out of me, and also I flat out just don't get some of what you say.  I mean that in the friendliest way possible though


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

> I'm stating what we have seen and read.


Well, we've only seen a limited amount of Hirashin.  Everyone and their cousin knows Shushin ... so it's not like that proves anything.

Wait it does!

Everyone anticipates Shushin... no one expects a move like Hirashin
(Which no one else knows much about)


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Chi said:


> lol.
> 
> Will opponent sit and wait when Yondaime teleport there? Do you think that if Yondaime placed a tag he will teleport there in set time, or somthn?
> 
> ...



This happen too with the shushin move i showed, plus the fact that Yondiame  must throw the kunai its already giving away his next destination. His teleportation is now limited by the speed of the kunai and you also seem to forget that highly skill people tend to set trap, back up plan before a fight even starts. We have seen Yondaime's hiraishin and in both cases, he used them just like that. He doesn' throw the kunai at them because it give away his next destination.  We have seen him using it only when his opponent are hiding or unaware of his existance in the battlefield, which make hiraishin a move for ambush, not for a fight head on, especially when the enemy already seen the kunai and know its his.




> In those pictures Gai flashes in front of mere genins. Their eyes are just incapable of catching such movements.
> Do you think Gai could beat some high ranked jounin with mere this?



Kakashi can only keep up with him because of the sharingan, and seeing how rare the sharingan is, then yes. Gai c




> How about fighting an Uchiha, or Hyuuga? They can predict very fast and catch even the fastest movements. So Gai can be fast but still be caught by Hyuuga, or Uchiha. Hirashin can't be caught by the eye, because there is nothing to catch.



They don't need to catch it but predict it, which is what skill shinobis. They pay attentiuon where Yondaime throw the kunai. In close range, hiraishin got catch shushin, even less while moving. Notice how all of Yondaime's victims were standing still, plus in hiding in the open field.



> I agree.. There is no difference in close combat if you fight against some no namers. But it's the same like "there is no difference between boxing champ and teenage guy if they fight a newborn".



????


----------



## Chi (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> Kakashi can only keep up with him because of the sharingan, and seeing how rare the sharingan is, then yes. Gai c


 
Well. And now I would really like to see manga page where it states something like that..
Otherwise, whole your thread can be trashed..


----------



## Kinjishi (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> Here is something that i hope people would understand.
> 
> *Hiraishin is no different than shushin in close range combat. * People's answer to everything concerning Yondaime is always Hiraishin, and how no one can deal with teleporttation in order to counter attack, evade, etc. This thread is meant to put this myth to rest.
> 
> ...




You are very wrong. Speed can still be witnessed in short range. Thats what the sharingan does. As you can also see in the Sasuke pic, Yamato could trace Sasukes movements. Hiraishin, can not be detected by any means. Not even the Sharingan can trace its movements in any range. Therefore the Yondaime's technique is far superior than any Shushin.


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Mickey said:


> No, you haven't proven anything.



i did, i used the example given.



> No one is convinced by your arguments, don't you see that? Now there's proof of something! Hiriashin hasn't been shown in the manga because Yondi is dead.



no shit sherlock!

Here is my little prediction for you, Kakashi also knows Hiraishin. 



> I've already explained that we're having an argument based on inductive logic, which means both of our arguments are unprovable by definition. You can, however, make reasonable assumptions about things, and yours are not reasonable as I have tried to explain.



They are reasonable as i used examples from the manga.




> I'm going to stop at this point, because your arguments are groundless and have basically been reduced to "No, you're wrong!".



they are not groundless, and actually, the one that started with the 'no, you are wrong" were you guys.



> Also, I suspect there is some sort of language gap because you have contradicted yourself a few times, which frankly confuses the hell out of me, and also I flat out just don't get some of what you say.  I mean that in the friendliest way possible though




lol, tell me where i have contradicted myself?


----------



## Genesis (Nov 28, 2006)

Did you even read and understand?


B.M.G. said:


> i don't want to turn this into a Itachi vs Yondaime.


You can replace Itachi with any other High level nin and my example would remain the same.


> Itachi has the sharingan, making him more likely to anticipate all that Yondaime throw at him. He is after all the greatets genius of all time, plus anbu captain by the age of 13.


The whole point of my example was to show you that even the fastest of speeds can be anticpated by the nins of the same level.

Gai rapidly appears behind Naruto. He can't sense or see it since he's not at that level but someone like Itachi or Sandaime or Oro etc. would be able to since they are at a similar level.


> we haven't seen Yondaime normal speed, but hiraishin.


Read the example, don't take it in a literal sense by bringing everything from the manga but in the context of what i wrote.


> Itachi can easily anticipate anything, as seen with most skilled shinobis they made they lay traps before the figth even start, including clones or being underground.


Like i said in my example. If a person is so fast that he moves within a 10th of a second, as long as the opposing shinobi is at a same level, he can anticipate that attack and do something about it. This is because they have trained themselves to such a level that they can anticipate the slightest of movements. You can't anticipate something which is instant because you're not even given that 10th or 100th of a second to see.


> Itachi has the speed to match hiraishin in close combat, after all this is Itachi who killed Shusui Shushin, so imagine how fast his shushin must be.


Do you know how he killed Shisui? No, and once again please go read the example and understand it.


> Nope, as there is no difference, not to mention that highly skill shinobi always lay traps before a fight. We have seen this multiple times.


Spoken like someone who knows nothing about fighting. It makes all the difference. Gai is a speed freak but he won't be able to take someone like Oro by surprise since he's at the level where he can anticipate such attacks and would detect even the slightest of movements.

If two nins come to a stalemate where their speed cancels each other out and they aren't able to defeat each other completely but only land blows, the one who possesses something which will make him move instantly will win. Simply because you can't anticipate something which happens instantly.

Instead of landing blows, Yondaime needs to put a marker and the next instant, the guy is dead.


----------



## Rikudou (Nov 28, 2006)

This is stupid. If Sasuke met someone faster than him, shunshin would be useless. This is not the case with hiraishin. there's IS a difference between bending time/space and simply moving very fast.
The threadmaker just doesn't seem to understand this.


----------



## Draffut (Nov 28, 2006)

instant speed is always faster then really, really, really, really, fast speed.  The later can be followed and predicted by a really, really, really, really fast opponent.  Teleportation cannot.  You cannot move faster then light, so you cannot match Hirashin's speed with any physical means.  (Sharingan might be able to, with it's time/space powers, but thats anouther subject)


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Chi said:


> Well. And now I would really like to see manga page where it states something like that..
> Otherwise, whole your thread can be trashed..




WTF are you talking about?

Kakashi simply can't match Gai's speed.

Kakashi simply doesn't know how to open that many gates, plus Gai's specilaty is speed and taijutsu, Kakashi is overall figther.

So while Kakashi migth not have the actual speed to keep up with Gai, he is still fast enough that his tactics and the sharingan can make up the difference, and this doesn't mean extra speed, but prediction abilties, which we "might' say it "slow Gai's speed down"

Not even Sasuke could keep up with Lee even with his inferior sharingan (chunnin exam)


----------



## Crowe (Nov 28, 2006)

We've had this discussion countless of times, LoTU. Hiraishin is *instant*, Shushin isn't. If you can't understand this then Naruto isn't something for you.


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

*PROOF*

*Teleport *
Part of Speech:   verb 
Definition:   to transfer or transmit _instantaneously_ without physically traversing the space in between but rather by psychic or advanced technological means 

*Instantaneous*
Part of Speech: adjective
1. occurring, done, or completed in an instant: an instantaneous response.  
2. existing at or pertaining to a particular instant.

Now, delete your NF account.


----------



## Tsukiyomi (Nov 28, 2006)

Dude you still don't seem to get it.

You keep using examples whereby one person TOTALLY outclasses the other person in terms of speed.  Of course in that instance there really is no difference.  Rock Lee with 5 gates opened and no weights against Konohamaru, yeah, from Konohamaru's perspective the movement would be instantaneous, but its not.

Hiraishin is _instantaneous_ movement, that GAURANTEES that you will be the significantly faster person in the equation.  Thats significantly different than using shunsin to try to outclass your opponent on speed.


----------



## Draffut (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> WTF are you talking about?
> 
> Kakashi simply can't match Gai's speed.
> 
> Kakashi simply doesn't know how to open that many gates, plus Gai's specilaty is speed and taijutsu, Kakashi is overall figther.



Pure speculation.  You assume Kakashi cant open "that many" gates, and that his base speed is less then Gai.  I fail to see proof of either of these.

Pretty much everything you have put up here is pure speculation, wrong, or horibly skewed comparisons.  Kinda funny really.


----------



## Muk (Nov 28, 2006)

*proof:*

*speed*  (spd)_n._*1. * _Physics_  The rate or a measure of the rate of motion, especially:*a. * Distance traveled divided by the time of travel.
*b. * The limit of this quotient as the time of travel becomes vanishingly small; the first derivative of distance with respect to time.


maybe if you beg, you might be forgiven

btw deepthought great idea


----------



## Chi (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> WTF are you talking about?
> 
> Kakashi simply can't match Gai's speed.
> 
> ...


 

SCAANS! Give me scans, or some proofs. 
Where does it states that only sharingan can match Gai speed?
Do you want to tell me that Gai will now go and just superspeed everyone (Orochimaru, Akatsuki)?

All your thread revolves around "there is noone to mach Gai speed". Which has absolutely NO evidence.
And who is Gai? He is one person. Is this topic Hirashin and Gai against someone?
Last time I checked Gai was the only one with such speed .

Jeez.. You really like being in denial..


----------



## bearzerger (Nov 28, 2006)

I wonder why all of you are still reacting to what B.M.G. says. If he's actually serious with what he's saying he deserves our pity and if not he gets off on your replies. Just ignore him, because it's pretty obvious there is no use in arguing with him.


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Genesis said:


> Did you even read and understand?
> 
> You can replace Itachi with any other High level nin and my example would remain the same.
> 
> ...


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Tsukiyomi said:


> Dude you still don't seem to get it.
> 
> You keep using examples whereby one person TOTALLY outclasses the other person in terms of speed.  Of course in that instance there really is no difference.  Rock Lee with 5 gates opened and no weights against Konohamaru, yeah, from Konohamaru's perspective the movement would be instantaneous, but its not.
> 
> Hiraishin is _instantaneous_ movement, that GAURANTEES that you will be the significantly faster person in the equation.  Thats significantly different than using shunsin to try to outclass your opponent on speed.



I disagree, the gap between both jutsu in close range cease to exist.

Especially, since Hiraishin is limited by the kunai's speed.


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

idiot [id-ee-uht] 

–noun
1. an utterly foolish or senseless person.  
2. Psychology. a person of the lowest order in a former classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25.  


I rest my case.


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Draffut said:


> Pure speculation.  You assume Kakashi cant open "that many" gates, and that his base speed is less then Gai.  I fail to see proof of either of these.
> 
> Pretty much everything you have put up here is pure speculation, wrong, or horibly skewed comparisons.  Kinda funny really.



is not speculation its logic.

Gai has trained his entire body in this field, not Kakashi.

Kakashi is a overall shinibi.

We have seen Kakashi opening the first gate, and we can't presume he can open one or two more, but that's about it.


----------



## Genesis (Nov 28, 2006)

Here's another example but i'm going to use 2 random nins called Muk and Chi.  

Both these nins are at the level of a Kage and both know Shunsin. However, Muk also knows Hiraishin.

They move so fast that it's within a 100th of a second. But since they are at a similar level, none of them can outclass the other because they are capable of anticipating each others attacks. They can see that slight movement the other makes in order to react.

However in the next move Muk lands a seal on Chi instead of a punch. There is no 100th of a second or 100000000000000000000th of a second for Chi to see and be able to anticipate what he's going to do. It's instant, and Chi is dead with a kunai in his throat.

What you fail to understand is that in order to anticipate something, you need to detect a slight movement to give an indication of what your opponent may do. However, if that movement is instant, there's no chance for you to make a defense. You can't react to something which is instant.

Also Hiraishin doesn't rely on the kunai, it's the seal which is the main thing. The seal can be planted on the body of a person and he's screwed.

Also i just caught you out.


> if he managed to place a tag!


You're comparing shunshin and Hiraishin but here you are speculating on Yondaime's abilities in order to downplay the effectiveness of Hiraishin as a jutsu. This is over, you fail.

@ Muk -  But are his begging skills that good that he stands a chance of being forgiven?


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

Stubborn
–adjective 1. unreasonably obstinate; obstinately unmoving: a stubborn child.  

Ass
...
...
3. a stupid, foolish, or stubborn person.


----------



## dregoth (Nov 28, 2006)

Reps to you! I've always been saying that no matter how fast Hiraishin is it is still a jutsu, requires execution time and it handseals.

Hiraishin isn't that useful in ofensive mode against a skilled opponent with greater speed than the hiraishin user, since it's all about Kunai deflection and dodging to avoid the seal.

The strenght of hiraishin lies in its secrecy. If one doesn't know how the jutsu works he won't give a crap about kunais and will die.


----------



## Muk (Nov 28, 2006)

Wait Deepthought you forgot something. Let me add this and then the case should be closed.

*stub·born*  (stbrn)_adj._ 
*stub·born·er*, *stub·born·est* 
*1. **a. * Unreasonably, often perversely unyielding; bullheaded.

*3. * Difficult to treat or deal with; resistant to treatment

Now this case should be closed, un.

T_T deepthought beat me to it.

@genesis: .... no his begging skills are not even worthing of noob level. They are critically below anything on NF!

*mental retardation
*_n._ Subnormal intellectual development as a result of congenital causes, brain injury, or disease and characterized by any of various cognitive deficiencies, including impaired learning, social, and vocational ability. Also called _ mental deficiency_.


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

You say that shinobi can detect slight movements.
So, Shushin has a weakness if the person can anticipate.
(Even if they can't do anything like Sasuke vs. Lee... there is still a slight chance of escape/counter)

Yondaime could annouce on a loudspeaker "I'm going to teleport and kill you"  There is no knowing where he is going to end up.  The genius of the technique is it's deception.  Yondaime throws kunai from a distance.  Whether or not you dodge or deflect them, he has won.  He has littered the field with summoning seals (that you didn't know where on the kunai) and can be anywhere at anytime.


----------



## Genesis (Nov 28, 2006)

@ Muk - True, i've never seen anything this terrible.


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Chi said:


> SCAANS! Give me scans, or some proofs.
> Where does it states that only sharingan can match Gai speed?



It common sense!

also, you are taking out of context my post, I said that in Kakashi's situation the sharingan plus his tactics is what closes the gap in speed. Well, it really doesn't closes the gap, it just allow Kakashi to predcit Gai's movement. After all they are eternal rivals according to Gai.



> Do you want to tell me that Gai will now go and just superspeed everyone (Orochimaru, Akatsuki)?



Yes. They aren't faster than Gai, however, they can deal with his speed in other manner instead to countering it with speed against speed. 

Didn't Kakashi stated that Gai with all open gate can surpass even a Hokage? 



> All your thread revolves around "there is noone to mach Gai speed". Which has absolutely NO evidence.



from all the person we have seen, he is the fastest.



> And who is Gai? He is one person. Is this topic Hirashin and Gai against someone?



 



> Last time I checked Gai was the only one with such speed .



yes and?




> Jeez.. You really like being in denial..




nope, i'm aguing using the images i ahve shown as evidence.


----------



## dregoth (Nov 28, 2006)

Btw, it was never stated hiraishin is instantaneous in the legitimate sense of the word.

Instantenous for shinobis can be something around Mach 5. 

In physics there's nothing instantaneous, period.


----------



## Muk (Nov 28, 2006)

dregoth said:


> Btw, it was never stated hiraishin is instantaneous in the legitimate sense of the word.
> 
> Instantenous for shinobis can be something around Mach 5.
> 
> In physics there's nothing instantaneous, period.



Err i must correct you. The very concept of higher level physics relies on the concept that there are instantaneous moments. Thus everything in Physics is instantaneous!

You *PHAIL* and Kwgod eat you and the beggars take all your money!


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

> In physics there's nothing instantaneous, period.



Phyics went out the window with Kage Bunshin.


----------



## Genesis (Nov 28, 2006)

dregoth said:


> Btw, it was never stated hiraishin is instantaneous in the legitimate sense of the word.
> 
> Instantenous for shinobis can be something around Mach 5.
> 
> In physics there's nothing instantaneous, period.


Yes because Kishi believes that fans of the manga aren't so slow that they will break down his manga and analyse to the extent where they begin to bring science as well as the creation of the universe to try and debate. 

This is about everyone who overanalyses and not just you.


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

dregoth said:


> Reps to you! I've always been saying that no matter how fast Hiraishin is it is still a jutsu, requires execution time and it handseals.



thanks God people lie you exist in this forum! 



> Hiraishin isn't that useful in ofensive mode against a skilled opponent with greater speed than the hiraishin user, since it's all about Kunai deflection and dodging to avoid the seal.



or simply change battlefield among many other things.



> The strenght of hiraishin lies in its secrecy. If one doesn't know how the jutsu works he won't give a crap about kunais and will die.



right on target, reason why the enemy think Yondiame just teleport just like that, but that isn't the case. If they know where his power comes from, Hiraishin is pretty much useless against high level shinobis. 


Glad to know that someone uses common sense. 

Rep to you, but i'm maxed out.


----------



## *uzumaki-naruto* (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G read this:



> This jutsu was created by the Fourth Hokage and the reason behind his nickname, "The Yellow Flash of Konoha" (木ノ葉の黄色い閃光, "Konoha no Kiiroi Senkō"). It allows the user to move over large distances with ultra-high speed. Although *it is often compared with the Body Flicker Technique, the speed of this jutsu is much greater*. In principal, it is similar to the Summoning Technique, but instead sends the user somewhere rather than bringing something to them.
> 
> To activate this jutsu, the user needs a special seal or "jutsu formula" (術式, Jutsu-shiki?) to mark the destination. After this is done, the user can almost instantaneously transport himself to that location. The Fourth applied the formula in advance to weapons such as kunai. It is also possible to leave a formula in an area touched by the user.
> 
> ...


_from wikipedia_

this give you an idea why harishin is greater than the body flick technique


----------



## BattousaiMS (Nov 28, 2006)

^(message directed to B.G.M)
Your messing the wrong subjects. Hiraishin has nothing to do with speed* and everything to do with teleportation. Shunshin also has nothing to do with speed* but has everything to do with teleportation. So its dumb to compare the speed of both of these jutsus with Gai or Itachi and stupidly claim that they are using shunshin when evidently they aren't.

No matter how fast Gai is he will still get caught off guard by Hiarishin cuz it's a dimentiosional teleportation and it's instantaneous without giving you a clue that the person will be poping out at the exact location.It's like your cheating a race with him by tagging him first, letting him do all the running and at last second poping up next to him and crossing the line before him.  

Shunshin however wouldn't beat Gai because first of all your not locing on a person but a location and second your using element of nature as your guidance which pop along with you when you teleported to that location.  This means that Gai can not only run faster by his own speed and taking some shortcuts but also that if indeed the person poped next to him he will get an advanced warning as this teleportation is much more visible.

As for anyone capable of outmatching Gai. Well the one who may have is currently dead, that is Yondaime. I say this because he was described and shown to be extremely fast even when he's not using hiraishin. However that being said others can very well beat Gai as well people like Kakashi and Asuma are near Gai's speed and they have better chakra control then him not to mention that if Gai does try to use the gates Kakashi also knows how to use it. So just because he happens to be the fastest normally doesn't make him the fastest in battle.

Speed* = The speed I am talking about is running speed. The difference between this speed and teleportation is like this one is warp speed while the other is jump gate/hyperspace fold/slipstream technology in science fictions.


----------



## wiggely (Nov 28, 2006)

teleportation is always faster than movement.  this is because of what the definition of teleportation and movement (speed) is.


> I disagree, the gap between both jutsu in close range cease to exist. (in other words they are the same)


do you understand what *always* means?



> > Originally Posted by Chi
> > SCAANS! Give me scans, or some proofs.
> > Where does it states that only sharingan can match Gai speed?
> 
> ...


its so much common sense that your the only one one that realizes it.

wait, common sense refers to things that basically everyone knows.  that means that what your saying is not common sense, by definition of what the word common sense means.



> Btw, it was never stated hiraishin is instantaneous in the legitimate sense of the word.
> 
> Instantenous for shinobis can be something around Mach 5.
> 
> In physics there's nothing instantaneous, period.


yes it does.  the manga and databook state that its a teleportation technique.  that means instananeous, by definition of the word teleport.

my two cents:
as battousai points out harishin isn't fast.  fast is a word that describes speed.  harishin has no speed.  it is instantanous, from point a to point z.

the body flicker technique requires speed.  teleportation is faster than any speed ever concievable.


-----------------------------------------


lets see  manga, databook, kishimoto, people in this thread, evidence, and the definition of words all side with hirashin blowing the body flicker out of the water.

then there is what BGM thinks.

wait what am i saying.  deepthought and all of you guys are crazy, i'm siding with BGM on this one.


----------



## Tsukiyomi (Nov 28, 2006)

dregoth said:


> In physics there's nothing instantaneous, period.



You know you're right, but thank god physics dictates that using a specific set of hand movements allows me to teleport an animal to my side or allow myself to breath fire/walk on water.


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

@ wiggley
I'm left confused...
I.. think I want to laugh... but I'm not sure... hmmm


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

*uzamaki-naruto* said:


> B.M.G read this:
> 
> 
> _from wikipedia_
> ...



thank for the description, i have it too. 

But look at it closely.



> it is often compared with the Body Flicker Technique, the *speed* of this jutsu is much greater.



Its contradicitng itself.

take another look at the sentece above.



> It allows the user to move over large distances with ultra-high *speed*.



now there is a contradiction.  Kishi is saying speed and then says, time and space.

but that's not even all, look at this. further down you have this



> After this is done, the user can *almost *instantaneously transport himself to that location.



almost is a keyword.

you also must take into consideration who's shushin is he refering too, not even mentioning how it would work in close range compare to shushin, as what Kishi is basically saying is that hiraishin is faster than shushin because of its long range that it can cover in *almost* an instant..



> This technique is the reason Konoha came out victorious in the Iwa-Konoha Ninja War



lol, don't used that as an example, he only defeated 57 shinobis. 




> before they could even react.



bad example, they are nameless shinobis, an second of all, the other ninjas weren't counting on him as they weren't fighting him in the first place, but the other leaf shinobis.  Reason why hiraishin is a ambush move.


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

> But look at it closely.



Look at it closer...

"Wikipedia is crap"


----------



## Muk (Nov 28, 2006)

wiggely said:


> lets see  manga, databook, kishimoto, people in this thread, evidence, and the definition of words all side with hirashin blowing the body flicker out of the water.
> 
> then there is what BGM thinks.
> 
> wait what am i saying.  deepthought and all of you guys are crazy, i'm siding with BGM on this one.



It hurts. It hurts so much >_<

Ohh and I also wanted to add common is something that is over 50% because once its over 50% its above the average and thus a majority 

You should never trust in wiki when it says something about Naruto. They reworded the context

Thus only stuff from the data book are the truth.

BMG you are over analysing something that isn't the truth. Thus by academic standards you are analysing something that is wrong in every way. Therefore your statement is false.

You are in the wrong. 

Oh wait, but since this is NF I guess this rule doesn't apply to you, what a pitty.


----------



## Finn Mac Cool (Nov 28, 2006)

The only feasible argument I can see for Shunshin being equal to Hiraishin in close range combat is Hiraishin's need for tags.  However that argument hinges upon the assumption that the Fourth Hokage throws a kunai with a tag and, as soon as it gets near his opponent, he teleports there, in which case the opponent could see the kunai and get far enough away from it to avoid the Fourth.  However the Fourth could also throw tagged kunai around and wait until his opponent is in the right position for teleportation to work.  If the Fourth can teleport to within, let's say, two feet of a tagged kunai, then, in a close range fight, it would take very few kunai stuck to the ground to give him the ability to teleport virtually anywhere his opponent would be able to stand.  Plus I must presume that Hiraishin would work even if the Fourth was in mid-jump, had his legs injured, was caught in a trap, or in any other sort of situation that would stop or hinder his ability to move and, thus, use the Shunshin.

So the Fourth Hokage leaps into the air and throws a bunch of tagged kunai at the ground.  His opponent dodges the kunai and tries to hit the Fourth with a thrown weapon.  Where most ninja would be unable to change their course of direction in the air, the Fourth can simply teleport away and to any one of the many locations in the battlefield where one of his kunai landed.  If he threw enough kunai (and we've seen ninja throw an awful lot of weapons at once in this series), he could probably then teleport almost anywhere within a twenty foot range.  If the opponent is within that range, he has no way to avoid the Fourth's instantaneous attack.  If he's outside that range . . . well, then it's no longer a close range fight, which was the whole point of this thread.


----------



## dregoth (Nov 28, 2006)

*uzamaki-naruto* said:


> B.M.G read this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you! Almost instantaneous != instantaneous.

You people must learn how to read. BMG is claiming that Hiraishin speed, no matter how fast or even instantaneous is limited to the medium that holds the seal speed.

In this sense, I don't see why hiraishin is any greater than shunshin.


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

@Muk-agreed
Unless Kishimoto wrote and locked the wikipedia entry.. it's crap


----------



## wiggely (Nov 28, 2006)

> Look at it closer...
> 
> "Wikipedia is crap"


you beat me to it


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

BattousaiMS said:


> ^(message directed to B.G.M)
> Your messing the wrong subjects. Hiraishin has nothing to do with speed* and everything to do with teleportation.



however, reviewing the databook again Kishi is contradicting himself



> It allows the user to move over large distances with ultra-high *speed*.






> Shunshin also has nothing to do with speed* but has everything to do with teleportation. So its dumb to compare the speed of both of these jutsus with Gai or Itachi and stupidly claim that they are using shunshin when evidently they aren't.



can you point out where was it said that shushin is some kind of teleportation?



> No matter how fast Gai is he will still get caught off guard by Hiarishin cuz it's a dimentiosional teleportation




Gai is the one of the candidate that would never fall for hiraishin.




> and it's instantaneous without giving you a clue that the person will be poping out at the exact location.



After this is done, the user can almost instantaneously transport himself to that location. 

and hiraishin does give you a clue were you are going to pop out, as you only need to stay away from the kunai.




> It's like your cheating a race with him by tagging him first, letting him do all the running and at last second poping up next to him and crossing the line before him.



for that, you must first touch him in the first place.




> Shunshin however wouldn't beat Gai because first of all your not locing on a person but a location and second your using element of nature as your guidance which pop along with you when you teleported to that location.  This means that Gai can not only run faster by his own speed and taking some shortcuts but also that if indeed the person poped next to him he will get an advanced warning as this teleportation is much more visible.



again, can you point to me where what this said about shushin. From my understandinf it all always being about the user's speed.



> As for anyone capable of outmatching Gai. Well the one who may have is currently dead, that is Yondaime. I say this because he was described and shown to be extremely fast even when he's not using hiraishin.



this is false, as we have only seen Yondaime using hiraishin, not his normal speed. You just made that up.




> However that being said others can very well beat Gai as well people like Kakashi and Asuma are near Gai's speed and they have better chakra control then him not to mention that if Gai does try to use the gates Kakashi also knows how to use it. So just because he happens to be the fastest normally doesn't make him the fastest in battle.



He is the fastest, but they are ways to deal with fast people.



> Speed* = The speed I am talking about is running speed. The difference between this speed and teleportation is like this one is warp speed while the other is jump gate/hyperspace fold/slipstream technology in science fictions.




look above.


----------



## Tsukiyomi (Nov 28, 2006)

dregoth said:


> Thank you! Almost instantaneous != instantaneous.



You're going by Wikipedia, which tends to be very flawed in this arena since fans all add their own translations/perspectives.



dregoth said:


> You people must learn how to read. BMG is claiming that Hiraishin speed, no matter how fast or even instantaneous is limited to the medium that holds the seal speed.



Limited to tbe medium that holds the seal speed?  What does that mean, what medium?

Regardless of what you say Kishimoto has stated it to be instantaneous, he is the god of this universe so what he says is so.



dregoth said:


> In this sense, I don't see why hiraishin is any greater than shunshin.



If Hiraishin is no greater than Shunshin, why is it an S-rank move?  Also why would the Fourth bother creating a move that already exists?


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

> If Hiraishin is no greater than Shunshin, why is it an S-rank move? Also why would the Fourth bother creating a move that already exists?



Logic Burn


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Tsukiyomi said:


> You're going by Wikipedia, which tends to be very flawed in this arena since fans all add their own translations/perspectives.



lets get NJT. That way everyone happy.



> Limited to tbe medium that holds the seal speed?  What does that mean, what medium?



kunais.



> Regardless of what you say Kishimoto has stated it to be instantaneous, he is the god of this universe so what he says is so.



he also said, *almost instanneous*, and mentioned *speed* two times refering to hiraishin too.

so again, it looks like he is contradicting himself.



> If Hiraishin is no greater than Shunshin, why is it an S-rank move?  Also why would the Fourth bother creating a move that already exists?



You are taking out of context. Hiraishin can cover long distances almost in a instance, which shushin can't do.

Plus, it can place tag on anyone, if you manahe to lay a tag on them.

like all jutsu, it has it ups and down.


----------



## Denizen (Nov 28, 2006)

Borat Sagdiyev said:


> you're wrong. Hiraishin will beat even Gai in that scene.



But even Hiraishin cannot defend against Gai's DYNAMIC ENTRY!!!​.

Fact.


----------



## Superb Herb (Nov 28, 2006)

OMG I can't believe such HUGE hate for a character could be around. I mean seriously you must that or you are seriously so damn dumb its pathetic.


----------



## Mickey (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> i did, i used the example given.



merely providing a picture does not consitute proof (or even an example, as they weren't examples of what you were saying), I don't know how anyone could possibly be so foolish as to think that. The "example given" did not help your argument, therefore it was irrelevant, and therefore your conclusion is unsupported by your evidence.




B.M.G. said:


> They are reasonable as i used examples from the manga.


No, they are not reasonable. The examples you took from the manga were not conclusive at all. If you don't understand why, look at my past posts which explained why quite clearly.





B.M.G. said:


> they are not groundless, and actually, the one that started with the 'no, you are wrong" were you guys.



Yes, they are groundless. When an argument is called "groundless", it means there is lacks satisfactory premises. Your arguments lack satisfactory premises, therefore they are groundless. 




> lol, tell me where i have contradicted myself?


Well, several times you have admitted that teleportation is instant and is therefore faster than even the most speedy movement, but then right after said that suunshin (sp?) was just as fast at close range. That is a contradiction, obviously. What you meant to say is it wouldn't make a difference at close range. There are others, but you're just really not worth it


----------



## rorykage (Nov 28, 2006)

all i keep seeing is arguments that say hiraishin makes no difference at short range, as compared to shunshin.

and also, that yondaime throws a kunai with a seal first, and this "weakens" the jutsu.

first off, even over close range, hiraishin is faster. no matter how fast a persons shunshin is, they are still actively propelling themselves forward. they are basically running at an impossible speed. everyone with me? hiraishin is totally different, and exponentially faster. hiraishin allows the user to *disappear* from time and space in an instant, and re-appear at another point in space, in the *exact same instant*. hiraishin happens so fast that it's almost as though the user can be in multiple places at once. however, since shunshin is based on movement any ninja can track it, (i know we get a lot of "he's too fast" moments, but speed is only relative to the individual) example: sharingan would be able to see, predict, and intercept the movement involved in shunshin, but sharingan can't see what isn't there. hiraishin has no movement, all sharingan would see is somone dissappear from space, and by the time the sharingan user processes a thought they would be stabbed in the back of the head.

and about the kunai....please. use some logic. yondaime throws a kunai and the enemy has to either dodge or deflect it, or something, and in the time they take to consider what action they'll take, yondaime would have won. a kunai is actually an excellent tool to use with the hiraishin seal, because the enemy would be distracted by the kunai, and then get fucked by the jutsu.

the OP also tried to say that it wouldn't work against ninja of Oro or Itachi's level, but for one thing, that is a baseless statement, and secondly that can be said for any jutsu. no technique = auto-win, there is always a counter technique. it doesn't change the fact that hiraishin is on a whole other level from shunshin.


----------



## Chi (Nov 28, 2006)

So is it Hirashin vs Anyone in close combat, or is it Hirashin vs Gai?

Again. Your whole point is that there are no ninjas in the universe to match Gai's speed (which brings us to question if it's the topic about Gai).
And you don't have absolutely NO support for this except your "common sence". And it's not "common sence" it's "SPECULATION". And it turns your thread right in a theory.

And one more thing. Whn you move with a set speed it can be said that everything around you moves at the same speed relatively to you and you just stand still.
Gai can see where he goes and what oponnent does and react on the situation. So means Gai can see movements on the same speed like his. What makes you so sure, that there is no one in this world who can train their eyes  so they can see such movements?

And again. Whole your topic revolves around Gai. Other examples please.


----------



## Mickey (Nov 28, 2006)

And once again you guys are missing the key point here : Hiraishin is better cause Kishi said so. End of story. Stop fucking arguing with it, your opinion doesn't change anything


----------



## Superb Herb (Nov 28, 2006)

Here is Leaf Ninjas take on Hirashin.

Hiraishin no Jutsu is a ninjutsu technique utilized by the Fourth Hokage. The 

technique gave Yondaime his nickname "Konoha's Yellow Flash," due to his 

bright yellow hair and his *ability to traverse great distances in the blink of an 

eye*. *A space-time jutsu like Kuchiyose*, Yondaime first needs to mark his 

destination with a shiki (rite) first, he can then activate the jutsu to come to 

the mark. He can apply this to a weapon such as a kunai, *and when thrown 

or used, he can instantly travel to it*. *He can also apply the mark to a 

touched area, such as his opponent or some other surrounding feature*. No 

matter where the opponent goes, Yondaime can travel to the mark to kill 

them.


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

> And once again you guys are missing the key point here : Hiraishin is better cause Kishi said so. End of story. Stop fucking arguing with it, your opinion doesn't change anything



I agree.  If you want to say Kishi is flawed. fine.  But he's the source of proof.  according to Kishi, Hirashin>Shushin.

You can't measure "speed" in between panels of a comic book.  You can, however, believe what the characters and author have to say.


----------



## dregoth (Nov 28, 2006)

Tsukiyomi said:


> You know you're right, but thank god physics dictates that using a specific set of hand movements allows me to teleport an animal to my side or allow myself to breath fire/walk on water.



Most fenomena in Naruto can be reproduced by the laws of physics. 

A human body holds enough electromagnetic charge to produce strenght that can lift dozens of gigatons, its just a matter of using the old formula of electric force between a mol of charges at a distance of 5-6 feet. This same force prevent you from sinking into the ground and if we could use it at our will we'd walk on water for sure.

It doesn't matter if hiraishin is instantaneous. The execution speed isn't. Instantaneous in the eyes of one shinobi maybe different from another. For the masses hiraishin is instantaneous.

Since the principle is the same as Kuchiyose, every summoner would auto-win if the speed were instantaneous.

I agree that it's almost impossible to win over hiraishin w/out prior knowledge. But I also believe it's not auto win once one is aware of the mechanism, since it's just a matter of keeping the distance and stop the kunais halfway.

And probably the kunais can be used only once, as most summoning stuff.


----------



## Spanish Hoffkage (Nov 28, 2006)

Hiraishin is so fast kishi can't even draw it at time.


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Chi said:


> So is it Hirashin vs Anyone in close combat, or is it Hirashin vs Gai?



actually, it a tomato vs lion.



> Again. Your whole point is that there are no ninjas in the universe to match Gai's speed (which brings us to question if it's the topic about Gai).



not, that's your whole point ti seem, as you keep bringin up that. My whole point has been from the very begining, that hiraishin in close range is no different than shushin. even my topic says this, so please pay attention. 



> And you don't have absolutely NO support for this except your "common sence". And it's not "common sence" it's "SPECULATION". And it turns your thread right in a theory.



I'm using existing eivdence of my claim.



> And one more thing. Whn you move with a set speed it can be said that everything around you moves at the same speed relatively to you and you just stand still.
> Gai can see where he goes and what oponnent does and react on the situation. So means Gai can see movements on the same speed like his. What makes you so sure, that there is no one in this world who can train their eyes  so they can see such movements?



you just don't need to train with your eyes, but with body speed as well. 

Look at what happen to Sasuke, he had the eyes, but he couldn't follow Lee, and that was a Lee that went easy on him.



> And again. Whole your topic revolves around Gai. Other examples please.




i think you have an obssesion with Gai, or apparently, they only word that you understand is Gai. 

My whole topic revolves around hirashin and shushin at close range.

Gai is one of the many examples used.

please pay attention to my first post.


----------



## Genesis (Nov 28, 2006)

What if someone like Gai had the Hiraishin? He's so fast that he'll definitely get the seal on someone. Shunshin wouldn't help anyone there.

This thread is making children cry all over the world.

Everything has been answered over these past 7 pages. If you still can't understand then this really is pointless.


----------



## Kwheeler (Nov 28, 2006)

> My whole point has been from the very begining, that hiraishin in close range is no different than shushin.



And based on the information available regarding both techniques, they are not the same.


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

> Most fenomena in Naruto can be reproduced by the laws of physics.



OMG you lose so bad. (phenomena?)



> its just a matter of using the old formula of electric force between a mol of charges at a distance of 5-6 feet.



So I can scientifically replicate those conditions by manipulating my hands and "believing" in it?

I'll bet frogs and snails can talk too. (with the proper stimulus of course)


----------



## Tsukiyomi (Nov 28, 2006)

dregoth said:


> *Most *fenomena in Naruto can be reproduced by the laws of physics.



You said it, MOST....MOST of the phenomena. If even a single one cannot be reproduced in such a way that is concrete proof that this universe is not bound by the same laws of physics.

Given that this is a FICTIONAL universe with MAGICAL NINJAS, its reasonable to say that you cannot apply real world physics to this world.


----------



## Spanish Hoffkage (Nov 28, 2006)

Once Kishi tried to draw Hiraishin but then he realised Yondaime was already there.


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Kwheeler said:


> And based on the information available regarding both techniques, they are not the same.




They are not the same, correct, however, in close range, the tiny difference won't even make a difference.



Genesis said:


> What if someone like Gai had the Hiraishin? He's so fast that he'll definitely get the seal on someone. Shunshin wouldn't help anyone there.
> 
> This thread is making children cry all over the world.
> 
> Everything has been answered over these past 7 pages. If you still can't understand then this really is pointless.




Gai wouldn't need it in the first place, unless he would like to conserve enermy on his way back from a mission.


----------



## Kwheeler (Nov 28, 2006)

DeepThought said:


> OMG you lose so bad. (phenomena?)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dont forget that with the right chemical reactions ancient magical animals can be sealed inside of young children and inanimate objects.


----------



## Purgatory (Nov 28, 2006)

wiggely said:


> lets see shushin takes time to perform and harishin takes no time to perform.  omg harishin is faster.
> 
> it doesn't matter how fast shushin is it isn't institanious, harishin is.  and in battle nothing can defeate institanious speed (unless you are able to predict exactly where and when he will teleport to).



You're forgetting something...*HIRAISHIN* needs a special kunai to be activated and used. Either land it in a secret spot somewhere around the enemy or get someone else to hold it. Without it you'd have to use Shunshin as an alternative, though I don't favor one over another.


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)




----------



## Chi (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> actually, it a tomato vs lion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
lol.
Here is the FACT: Hirashin is the instant movement.
Here is the fact: With shunshin you still need time to get to the end point.

In a close range combat there is a possibility of the opponent who can react to super high speed.
In the close range combat there are no opponents who can react on teleportation since it's instant.

What the hell are you still trying to prove?
It was stated to you already 100 times, and you still in denial..

Are you trying to prove, that there are no ninjas in Naruto world who can match up to shunshin? I can just laugh..


----------



## Genesis (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> Gai wouldn't need it in the first place, unless he would like to conserve enermy on his way back from a mission.


Your only defence against the first example i gave was that it depends on whether Yondaime can plant seals on someone.

Considering the fact that this thread is talking about Hiraishin and Shunshin as jutsus, it shouldn't matter of who is performing it.

Gai with Hiraishin would be capable of landing the seal on anyone hence he would be unstoppable. Someone with shunshin wouldn't be able to prevent him from tagging them.

Essentially when it comes down to it, you can't prove that someone with Shunsin is better than another with Hiraishin and Shunsin because that extra jutsu makes a big difference.

This is becoming repetitive.


> You're forgetting something...HIRAISHIN needs a special kunai to be activated and used.


No it needs a seal. That's also been answered in this thread, read before posting.

To quote Chi:


> Here is the FACT: Hirashin is the instant movement.
> Here is the fact: With shunshin you still need time to get to the end point.
> 
> In a close range combat there is a possibility of the opponent who can react to super high speed.
> ...


Simple, and explains it. If you can't accept it move on.


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Chi said:


> lol.
> Here is the FACT: Hirashin is the instant movement.
> Here is the fact: With shunshin you still need time to get to the end point.



yes, but it seems that Kishi is contradicting himself if you the hiraishin traslation.

However, instant or not, the difference between the two at close is none. 


> > In a close range combat there is a possibility of the opponent who can react to super high speed.
> > In the close range combat there are no opponents who can react on teleportation since it's instant.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## wiggely (Nov 28, 2006)

> You're forgetting something...HIRAISHIN needs a special kunai to be activated and used. Either land it in a secret spot somewhere around the enemy or get someone else to hold it. Without it you'd have to use Shunshin as an alternative, though I don't favor one over another


actually i didn't forget anything.

consider this.  we know that ninja can hold things with their feet using chakra.  the can hold their bodies to trees or more importantly sasuke threw a kunai with his foot.

its not to hard to imagen a seal that on the back side of it looks like dirt, rock, or tree bark.

the 4th could walk/run around holding seals to his foot with chakra and release them on the ground when ever he wanted without an enemy knowing.  and therefore would be able to transport where he wants to with out letting the enemy know where the seal is.

i mean if the placement of the seal was so obvious that the enemies knew where it was the technique wouldn't work at all.  an enemy could just remove the seal from his body and be safe.

but the thing is the 4th can place seals in ways in which the enemy doesn't know what direction he is going to attack from.  a very simple example: he throws 5 kunai at once with seals on them.  an enemy can't keep track of more all the directions at the same time.

come on guys if shikamaru was able to place a kunai behind two kage level ninjas without a problem the 4th can do it also.


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Genesis said:


> Your only defence against the first example i gave was that it depends on whether Yondaime can plant seals on someone.
> 
> Considering the fact that this thread is talking about Hiraishin and Shunshin as jutsus, it shouldn't matter of who is performing it.
> 
> Gai with Hiraishin would be capable of landing the seal on anyone hence he would be unstoppable. Someone with shunshin wouldn't be able to prevent him from tagging them.



nope, you are assuming that shushin and hiraishin are unbeatable.

They are ways to handle both of them, and i have already stated a couple of them.




> Essentially when it comes down to it, you can't prove that someone with Shunsin is better than another with Hiraishin and Shunsin because that extra jutsu makes a big difference.
> 
> This is becoming repetitive.



it won't make a difference in close range



> No it needs a seal. That's also been answered in this thread, read before posting.



a special kunai already has a seal on it. same shit

you can tag it on almost anaything.


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

If he were to say... have an army of ninjas throw the kunai... or say... use an exploding tag that spreads more tags (like Sakura in movie 1) or litter the field with tags in some other way... The enemy would never see it coming.

There's no deception involved with Shusin.  It's straightworeward speed.  Hirashin has many applications.


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

wiggely said:


> come on guys if shikamaru was able to place a kunai behind two kage level ninjas without a problem the 4th can do it also.




Out of context and different circumstances. That was an ambush.


reread how he was able to place a kunai behind them.

Also, Yondaime doesn't have a 200 IQ brain.


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

> it won't make a difference in close range





> it won't make a difference in close range





> it won't make a difference in close range



Someone with shushin stabbing someone with shushin is relativley the same speed. (Einstein bitches!)
Someone with shushin stabbing someone using hirashin will miss... everytime.  It doesn't matter where Yondaime has the seal. as long as it is "away" they are stabbing at nothing


----------



## Superb Herb (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> Out of context and different circumstances. That was an ambush.
> 
> 
> reread how he was able to place a kunai behind them.
> ...



Shika doesnt have the ability to instantly teleport by someone either.


----------



## Chi (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> I mean, it seems if i say "Kakashi is strong" you conclude that i said, that Kakashi is the strongest and no one can match up to him.
> 
> again, stop putting things can of things in my mouth when i haven't even said things slike that.
> 
> I hope that this time, you won't interpret that i meant, that Kakashi > Universe.


 
I'm not putting words in your mouth.
You just flat out said that no one except Kakashi can match Gai's speed and only because Kakashi has sharingan.

Now you are trying to prove that hirashin isn't instant and that Kishimoto contradicts himself.
It's common measures for those who lack any arguments to support their theories.

Tag doesn't necessary must be on kunay. As battle proceeds the whole area can be covered in tags.

Really.. I explained everything in the previous post already. You are the only one on the whole forums who doesn't understand.


----------



## wiggely (Nov 28, 2006)

> Out of context and different circumstances. That was an ambush.
> 
> 
> reread how he was able to place a kunai behind them.
> ...


you miss the point.

shikamaru was able to put the knives behind them because he was able to move quick enough that the two ninjas only had time to dodge them.  the point is that that when compairing shikamaru to yondaime, shikamaru is like a turtle and yondaime is like a ferrari.

yondaime, literally by using hiriashin, and literly throw 7 kunai (with seals) at an enemy from every single direction at once.  seven seals around the enemy and teleportating to each one and throwing a kunai.  once this happens the enemy is dead.  he can't guard against every direction at the same time.  then instant teleportation and instant kunai in the heart.


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Chi said:


> I'm not putting words in your mouth.
> You just flat out said that no one except Kakashi can match Gai's speed and only because Kakashi has sharingan.



No, i said that Kakashi is Gai's rival and that one of the reasons he can keep up with Gai was because of his sharingan and tactics.

So please explain to me how you came to the conclusion that i said that Kakashi is the only one that can "match" Gai's speed?



> Now you are trying to prove that hirashin isn't instant and that Kishimoto contradicts himself.



actually, no. I wasn't contradicting myself. I always said from the very begining that hiraishin was teleportation, and then someone posted a description of the hirashin, where Kishi uses the words speed, and almost instantaneous movements for hiraishin, which is where i said, Kishi is contradicting himself.  




> It's common measures for those who lack any arguments to support their theories.



wth? you are putting thing in my mouth all this times.



> Tag doesn't necessary must be on kunay.



tell me where i have said that? i have said tags and special kunais



> As battle proceeds the whole area can be covered in tags.



just like you can easily from that battlefield to another battlefield. Are you telling me, Yondiame has the whole world covered with tag too? 



> Really.. I explained everything in the previous post already. You are the only one on the whole forums who doesn't understand.



what, i can't hear you.



KyuubiYondime said:


> Shika doesnt have the ability to instantly teleport by someone either.



shika in some of way has developed his own kind of hiraishin if you look at it closely.


----------



## Finn Mac Cool (Nov 28, 2006)

Yes, the difference in speed between the two jutsus is very, very, _very_ small, but ninja's reflexes are very, very, _very_ fast.  In battles between high level ninja, an extra one millionth of a second can often mean the difference between life and death.


----------



## wiggely (Nov 28, 2006)

> Are you telling me, Yondiame has the whole world covered with tag too?


technically yes.  its never been said that there is a limit to the amount of tags he can use.  so technically the only limit on the amount of tags he can have is the number of trees in the narutoverse.



> shika in some of way has developed his own kind of hiraishin if you look at it closely.


you just proved your theory.  shikamaru now has hiraishin!!!!  brilliant.  his new nick name is now the "black flash".


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

wiggely said:


> you miss the point.
> 
> shikamaru was able to put the knives behind them because he was able to move quick enough that the two ninjas only had time to dodge them.  the point is that that when compairing shikamaru to yondaime, shikamaru is like a turtle and yondaime is like a ferrari.



once again, it was an ambush.

The outcome would have been totally different.

I don't know what would Yondaime do against Hidan, as when he find out that Hidan is immortal, which he doesn't, he is screwed, because by then he would be injured by hidan.

kazkuzu seem to have a tough skin, and i doubt a kunai will won'on him.



> yondaime, literally by using hiriashin, and literly throw 7 kunai (with seals) at an enemy from every single direction at once.
> seven seals around the enemy and teleportating to each one and throwing a kunai.  once this happens the enemy is dead.  he can't guard against every direction at the same time.  then instant teleportation and instant kunai in the heart.




The enemy would only need to run backwards, or simple go underground


----------



## DeepThought (Nov 28, 2006)

Whatever. 
semantics and analyzation aside

Here are the facts:

*Hirashin = Rank: S

Shushin = Rank: D*

I'm out.


----------



## Chi (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> No, i said that Kakashi is Gai's rival and that one of the reasons he can keep up with Gai was because of his sharingan and tactics.
> 
> So please explain to me how you came to the conclusion that i said that Kakashi is the only one that can "match" Gai's speed?


 


			
				me said:
			
		

> In those pictures Gai flashes in front of mere genins. Their eyes are just incapable of catching such movements.
> Do you think Gai could beat some high ranked jounin with mere this?





			
				you said:
			
		

> Kakashi can only keep up with him because of the sharingan, and seeing how rare the sharingan is, then yes. Gai c


Anyway.. Here's the situation.
There stands Orochimaru.
In the first case, Gai rushes to him at his maximum speed. Will orochimaru see his movements and react?
Second case, Yondaime teleports instantly to Orochimaru. Will he be able to react?


----------



## Spanish Hoffkage (Nov 28, 2006)

............................A

............................I



> Shushin = Rank: D
> 
> Hirashin = Rank: S


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

wiggely said:


> technically yes.  its never been said that there is a limit to the amount of tags he can use.  so technically the only limit on the amount of tags he can have is the number of trees in the narutoverse.




if that was true , then he wouldn't have needed to use new tags in the Gaiden, after all, you just said that technically, he might have them all over the world.  Apparently, Yondaime was on vacation thr day he was to put tags in that part of the world.;amuse



> you just proved your theory.  shikamaru now has hiraishin!!!!  brilliant.  his new nick name is now the "black flash".



where i have said that Shika has Hirashin?




Chi said:


> Anyway.. Here's the situation.



wth?

I was refering to Kakashi's case there! Anyone knows that! reread it! 




> There stands Orochimaru.
> In the first case, Gai rushes to him at his maximum speed. Will orochimaru see his movements and react?



He would either take the attack head on, or use a clone.



> Second case, Yondaime teleports instantly to Orochimaru. Will he be able to react?



he would take the attack head on or use a clone.

Look at the MK fight. Oro let himself get hit in the face with a Kyuubi chakra, and that was his real body.

and you think a mere kunai, rasengan, or a punch is going to scare Oro away? Please!


----------



## Muk (Nov 28, 2006)

Why won't this thread die? It's like the other thread, where someone said he talked to Kishimoto and heard the ending or something T_T

Pulls out Vorpal pixy lance and starts stabbing at the thread.

Hirashin = S rank jutsu

Shushin = D rank.

all the proves are in the previous pages.

This thread PHAILS!!!


----------



## Sterling Archer (Nov 28, 2006)

DeepThought said:


> Here are the facts:
> 
> *Hirashin = Rank: S
> 
> ...



This topic is WTFpwnd.


----------



## rorykage (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> once again, it was an ambush.
> 
> The outcome would have been totally different.
> 
> ...



what point are you even arguing anymore? it looks to me like you're trying to prove hiraishin doesn't mean you automatically own. i think everybody knows that there is always a way to deal with a technique, so this argument isn't necessary.

i thought your original point was that there is no difference in hiraishin and shunshin at close range? what happened to that point? oh yeah, it was disproven, so what are you still arguing about?


----------



## wiggely (Nov 28, 2006)

> The enemy would only need to run backwards, or simple go underground


i see you don't understand.  one can't run backwards if there is a kunai coming at the back of your head.  and we know that most ninja's we've seen can go underground (sarcasim).



> if that was true , then he wouldn't have needed to use new tags in the Gaiden, after all, you just said that technically, he might have them all over the world. Apparently, Yondaime was on vacation thr day he was to put tags in that part of the world.;amuse


wow!  it is true.  just because he didn't use all the paper in kohona to create tags and place them other places doesn't mean that he couldn't.  he doesn't have to because having a handful in battle is all he has ever needed.



> once again, it was an ambush


now its obvious that your not listening/thinking.  with hiraishin, teleportation from one spot to another (instantly remind you), _* yondaime coming face to face with hidan and kazuku is faster *_(technically move from place to place, no movement is involved so no speed involved) _*than shikamaru in an ambush*_.



> where i have said that Shika has Hirashin?





> shika in some of way has developed his own kind of hiraishin if you look at it closely


no he doesn't have his own kind of hiraishin.


----------



## Genesis (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> nope, you are assuming that shushin and hiraishin are unbeatable.


I didn't assume that. You can't comprehend my posts.


> They are ways to handle both of them, and i have already stated a couple of them.


This has nothing to do with what i said.


> it won't make a difference in close range


You still haven't countered either of my examples and countless others have proven you wrong throughout this meaningless thread.


> a special kunai already has a seal on it. same shit
> 
> you can tag it on almost anaything.


Was i talking to you when i said that?

Let the thread die, as rorykage has pointed out, he doesn't even know what he's arguing anymore.


----------



## Chi (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> he would take the attack head on or use a clone.


 
The case is... He doesn't know when Hirashin is coming and even if he knows it coming he doesn't have ANY time to react and create clone.
Handseals still require time. Hirashin is instant. It doesn't take time. That's the whole difference.


Anyway.. i'm done with this topic. You've been proven wrong a lot of times already. If you want to belive in it so much then please go ahead.


----------



## BattousaiMS (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> however, reviewing the databook again Kishi is contradicting himself


Kishimoto isn't contradicting in the databook. The speed he is talking about in it is the speed in terms of relativity it's not physical running speed.



B.M.G. said:


> can you point out where was it said that shushin is some kind of teleportation?


Shunshin is a teleportation look at the anime/manga look at the databook discription. Shunshin is stated as D rank jutsu which allows the user to appear and dissapear in an instant from a given location to another with the use of elemnts as their teleportation signature. It means that no matter how fast the person is he or she will always leave a mark in his teleportation while leaving and arriving there. The person isn't bursting out in speed here he is appearing and dissapearing. It's not a useful jutsu to use in battle cuz it simply takes you too much time to dissapear and pop up and your element showing before you gives a clear indication to the opponent where you are if he happens to be near it.



B.M.G. said:


> Gai is the one of the candidate that would never fall for hiraishin.


Orly? how so? Last we checked nobody ever knew what the fuck hit them before it was too late and llast I remember there was nowhere stated that Gai  is an expert in tracking or sensing. In fact, he even has a bad memory considering that he didn't even recall Kisame and had a difficulty fighting a fake Kisame. It tells you alot about Gai. He is great physically yes, but that doesn't make him untouchable. If the person using hiraishin in front of him, he might have a chance but Yondaime always lands behind his his target and he is still one of the fastest guy we have seen.



B.M.G. said:


> After this is done, the user can almost instantaneously transport himself to that location.
> 
> and hiraishin does give you a clue were you are going to pop out, as you only need to stay away from the kunai.



No what matters in the hiraishin is not the kunais but rather the seal in them a seal that Yondaime could set on you with a simple touch. You won't even notice it, he could simply have patted you on the back and set it on and you won't even see the seal. Not to mention that no one knows that it works with seal to begin with. Gai would be in the same position as the rest of them totally clueless of the kunai or the seal before its too late.




B.M.G. said:


> for that, you must first touch him in the first place.



Again read above. 



B.M.G. said:


> again, can you point to me where what this said about shushin. From my understandinf it all always being about the user's speed.



User speed is important but not compared to what element your going to use to perform it. If your using a visible element like most do, it's going to be easily noticable as your teleportation elemt starts surrounding you as you pop out. So in order to use it like you want where speed would matter the person has to use it with a non visible matter like Yondaime does which is Wind. The rest of the users we have seen are easily tracable since leaves, mist and sand  aren't invisible. 



B.M.G. said:


> this is false, as we have only seen Yondaime using hiraishin, not his normal speed. You just made that up.



Yondaime used all 3 forms in chapter 240. In the begining of the battle after Kakashi started charging and killing the KB on Obitio was all done with his normal speed. 

Where he grabbed Kakashi in a distant when he nearly got impaled the first time is the use of shunshin, see the wind vapor around him? in page 8-9 with the zoom sound that's his wind shunshin. 

Then look at his next teleportation the time where Rin is thinking that her sensei's shunshin is so fast. There is no sound no movement at all and he's already behind the poor fool. It's so instantaneous that he dissapeared even before his bag had time to tilt on the floor.



B.M.G. said:


> He is the fastest, but they are ways to deal with fast people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He isn't the fastest. He is one of the fastest. If he was the fastest he wouldn't have had any trouble confronting Kisame from the get go in part 2 when fake Kisame attacked him. He had so much difficulty with him that he was force to open his 6th gate to beat him up. So stop using his speed to decleare him as some invincible warrior because he isn't. He can't do nothing against hiraishin because he has no knowledge of the jutsu, certainly not enough sense to track it if Yondaime decided to pop up behind him like he usually does and given that Yondaime is shown damn fast himself.

Would Gai win with a chakra less race? Most likely but this isn't the olympiques its shinobi world and here anything goes. So Gai's top speed maybe good but it still doesn't give him any protection against all people.


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

wiggely said:


> i see you don't understand.  one can't run backwards if there is a kunai coming at the back of your head.



Lol, so explain to me, how can Yondaime being in front of his enemy can throw kunais at all directions? 

Again, you just go backward because Yondaime is not behind you, but in front of you!




> and we know that most ninja's we've seen can go underground (sarcasim).



high level shinobis have, (Oro, Zetsu, Kakashi, Kabuto, Sai, Yamato) lol, even Naruto as a genin did it. 



> wow!  it is true.  just because he didn't use all the paper in kohona to create tags and place them other places doesn't mean that he couldn't.  he doesn't have to because having a handful in battle is all he has ever needed.



First, the tag doesn't need paper because its a seal, it needs a solid surface.

Then, it must also be determine if those tag can be reused, and if they have a time limit.

and if the other countries are cutting trees at a large scale then Yondaime's plan for world domination is screwed! 



> now its obvious that your not listening/thinking.  with hiraishin, teleportation from one spot to another (instantly remind you), _* yondaime coming face to face with hidan and kazuku is faster *_(technically move from place to place, no movement is involved so no speed involved) _*than shikamaru in an ambush*_.



err. no. By Yondaime already doing the ambush he save time, plus the element of suprise which he won't get by exposing himself to them.



> no he doesn't have his own kind of hiraishin.




He does have some "kind" of hiraishin, of course there is no speed or teleporttation involved.

Yondaime's hiraishin need tags, and he love to use kunais for those tag in order to teleport as it can fool the enemy thinking they are normal kunais.

Shika uses "chakra tags" on his kunais so he can throws them to fool his enemies and then using his shadow skills traps the enemy's shadow.




Chi said:


> The case is... He doesn't know when Hirashin is coming and even if he knows it coming he doesn't have ANY time to react and create clone.
> Handseals still require time. Hirashin is instant. It doesn't take time. That's the whole difference.



Oro doesn't use handseal when healing, you clearly saw it, so a kunai or a rasnegan or super punch won't matter.  especially since Yondaime doesn't even have a tag near Oro.

Once again, you are assuming that Yondiame can telpeport at will, which is not the case. PLus a shinobis must be prepare for the unexpected.



> Anyway.. i'm done with this topic. You've been proven wrong a lot of times already. If you want to belive in it so much then please go ahead.



I haven't been proven wrong.



BattousaiMS said:


> Kishimoto isn't contradicting in the databook. The speed he is talking about in it is the speed in terms of relativity it's not physical running speed.



Then he doesn't need to use speed in the first place, and he did it twice!

however, that still doesn't change my opinion, as i stated from the begining that hiraishin was teleportation. 




> Shunshin is a teleportation look at the anime/manga look at the databook discription. Shunshin is stated as D rank jutsu which allows the user to appear and dissapear in an instant from a given location to another with the use of elemnts as their teleportation signature. It means that no matter how fast the person is he or she will always leave a mark in his teleportation while leaving and arriving there.



same thing with hiraishin and summoning. Look at both of them.

You can clearly see the smoke or whatever the hell is it.



> The person isn't bursting out in speed here he is appearing and dissapearing. It's not a useful jutsu to use in battle cuz it simply takes you too much time to dissapear and pop up and your element showing before you gives a clear indication to the opponent where you are if he happens to be near it.



again, shushin by highly skilled shinobis is done like nothing, ans the smoke effect are also seen in hiraishin and summoning.



> Orly? how so? Last we checked nobody ever knew what the fuck hit them before it was too late and llast I remember there was nowhere stated that Gai  is an expert in tracking or sensing. In fact, he even has a bad memory considering that he didn't even recall Kisame and had a difficulty fighting a fake Kisame. It tells you alot about Gai.



Its called comic relief!

Whoever sees Kisame is bound to remember him forever, after all, when do you see a Great White Shark out of water in a human body?



> He is great physically yes, but that doesn't make him untouchable. If the person using hiraishin in front of him, he might have a chance but Yondaime always lands *behind his his target* and he is still one of the fastest guy we have seen.



Everyone know that the place where they will attack is from the behind, Yondaime isn't the only ones that does this or know this you know. 




> No what matters in the hiraishin is not the kunais but rather the seal in them a seal that Yondaime could set on you with a simple touch. You won't even notice it, he could simply have patted you on the back and set it on and you won't even see the seal. Not to mention that no one knows that it works with seal to begin with. Gai would be in the same position as the rest of them totally clueless of the kunai or the seal before its too late.



again, it not like Yondaime can just place a tag like that and teleport toward them. We have seen that he likes to place them in kunais, which makes them eassy to spot and if Yondiame doesn't uses kunais, then he would have t use his own speed against Gai, and you know that Yondaime simply can't match Gai's speed with his body speed.




> User speed is important but not compared to what element your going to use to perform it. If your using a visible element like most do, it's going to be easily noticable as your teleportation elemt starts surrounding you as you pop out. So in order to use it like you want where speed would matter the person has to use it with a non visible matter like Yondaime does which is Wind. The rest of the users we have seen are easily tracable since leaves, mist and sand  aren't invisible.



again, same thing with Hiraishina and summoning. You can clearly see it.




> Yondaime used all 3 forms in chapter 240. In the begining of the battle after Kakashi started charging and killing the KB on Obitio was all done with his normal speed.



He used special kunai to get to Kakashi and to get to that stone shinobi as he had already given him a special kunai. The other one, he was close to Obito.



> Where he grabbed Kakashi in a distant when he nearly got impaled the first time is the use of shunshin, see the wind vapor around him? in page 8-9 with the zoom sound that's his wind shunshin.



false, that was hiraishin. Yondaime had already given Kakashi the special kunai, reason why Yondaime was later able to save Kakashi again at the end.



> Then look at his next teleportation the time where Rin is thinking that her sensei's shunshin is so fast. There is no sound no movement at all and he's already behind the poor fool. It's so instantaneous that he dissapeared even before his bag had time to tilt on the floor.



we already know that he can lay tag on any solid surface.



> He isn't the fastest. He is one of the fastest. If he was the fastest he wouldn't have had any trouble confronting Kisame from the get go in part 2 when fake Kisame attacked him. He had so much difficulty with him that he was force to open his 6th gate to beat him up. So stop using his speed to decleare him as some invincible warrior because he isn't. He can't do nothing against hiraishin because he has no knowledge of the jutsu, certainly not enough sense to track it if Yondaime decided to pop up behind him like he usually does and given that Yondaime is shown damn fast himself.



Gai was fighting on water! not on the ground, he basically had to fly to fight Kisame, making him vunerable in the firts place.  Gai is simply the fastest shinobi until someoen else comes along.  



> Would Gai win with a chakra less race? Most likely but this isn't the olympiques its shinobi world and here anything goes. So Gai's top speed maybe good but it still doesn't give him any protection against all people.



but enough to avoid any fight he doesn't like to fight.


----------



## Superb Herb (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> Lol, so explain to me, how can Yondaime being in front of his enemy can throw kunais at all directions?
> 
> Again, you just go backward because Yondaime is not behind you, but in front of you!
> 
> ...



Seriously this whole theory of yours has been blown apart.

You want to compare Shikas shit chakra blades to Hirashin?

And there similar because of a tag huh? Well I guess every has a hirashin then because everyone uses the exploding tags on kunais.


----------



## Shidoshi (Nov 28, 2006)

rocklee0036 said:


> You are very wrong. Speed can still be witnessed in short range. Thats what the sharingan does. As you can also see in the Sasuke pic, Yamato could trace Sasukes movements. Hiraishin, can not be detected by any means. Not even the Sharingan can trace its movements in any range. Therefore the Yondaime's technique is far superior than any Shushin.


Not to get in the middle of B.M.G/LotU's arguement about the mechanics behind Hiraishin, but I *will* say that since all ninjutsu use chakra, and Hiraishin is ninjutsu, then there's a fairly good possibility that the sharingan can "deal with it", even if it can't copy it.  If an Uchiha like Itachi can see Yondaime's chakra flow right before he opens the portal between two points in space-time, there's a decent chance that he could see an shadow image of foresight.  

Because it's only instant while Yondaime's in "mid-transit" (because that's when he's moving outside normal space-time), but the moments before he disappears, and the moments after he reappears, everything else takes time, no matter how infinitessimally short.

Plus, there are limitations to the jutsu, despite people's insistence to neglect it.  It *is* limited, to a certain extent, in opening the "portal" in space-time near the seal Yondaime jumps towards.  How close to the seal?  We don't know.

I'll also say, that no jutsu is undefeatable...this has been proven more than once in this manga; like all jutsu, it's most effective among those unknowledgable of how it works.  You keep a certain distance away from any tags Yondaime might throw around, and you *might* survive (by exploiting the limitation in the jutsu) provided you're fast enough yourself.

But, I think B.M.G./LotU means that there's no visual difference to the *normal observer* of the jutsu.  Empirically, it would appear the same as quick Shunshin by a high-level ninja.  Rin called it "Shunshin" herself, when she saw it.

That's why B.M.G./LotU is also saying that "yeah, in a reference frame of a long distances, Hiraishin is clearly superior".


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Shidoshi said:


> Not to get in the middle of B.M.G/LotU's arguement about the mechanics behind Hiraishin, but I *will* say that since all ninjutsu use chakra, and Hiraishin is ninjutsu, then there's a fairly good possibility that the sharingan can "deal with it", even if it can't copy it.  If an Uchiha like Itachi can see Yondaime's chakra flow right before he opens the portal between two points in space-time, there's a decent chance that he could see an shadow image of foresight.
> 
> Because it's only instant while Yondaime's in "mid-transit" (because that's when he's moving outside normal space-time), but the moments before he disappears, and the moments after he reappears, everything else takes time, no matter how infinitessimally short.
> 
> ...



Right on target.

You said it a lot better what i was trying to portrait.  

and also brought some good insight to the table.


----------



## ez (Nov 28, 2006)

there is a difference whether it's close range or long range

shunshin will always take time to move even the smallest distance

hiraishin wouldn't take any time


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## FitzChivalry (Nov 28, 2006)

If you can't figure out which move is superior over which simply by rank and reputation, you're an idiot. But people should seriously stop taking this thread seriously, on account of who actually made it:


pek the villain said:


> We've had this discussion countless of times, *LoTU.* Hiraishin is *instant*, Shushin isn't. If you can't understand this then Naruto isn't something for you.


No wonder why—with all sound logic and manga evidence as support against him—this thread was still able to carry on for 165 replies, and for 9 pages. Only one person could create so much frustration with little backing his assertion for this long. It's an art form. The way he makes spoiler tags and links in his sig is also very identical to how LotU did _his _sigs.

People, drop this thread and move on with your lives.


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## Tsukiyomi (Nov 28, 2006)

Shidoshi said:


> Not to get in the middle of B.M.G/LotU's arguement about the mechanics behind Hiraishin, but I *will* say that since all ninjutsu use chakra, and Hiraishin is ninjutsu, then there's a fairly good possibility that the sharingan can "deal with it", even if it can't copy it.  If an Uchiha like Itachi can see Yondaime's chakra flow right before he opens the portal between two points in space-time, there's a decent chance that he could see an shadow image of foresight.



An image of foresight?  Foresight on teleportation?  Sharingan predicts movements by following an opponents body movements and muscle movements and predicting future movements, you can't use that to predict teleportation because it doesn't work the same way as normal movement.

You're basing that on absolutely nothing.

B.M.G. you've been pretty soundly proven wrong here by nearly every person to enter this thread, any last closing arguments before this thread ends?


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## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Tsukiyomi said:


> An image of foresight?  Foresight on teleportation?  Sharingan predicts movements by following an opponents body movements and muscle movements and predicting future movements, you can't use that to predict teleportation because it doesn't work the same way as normal movement.
> 
> You're basing that on absolutely nothing.
> 
> B.M.G. you've been pretty soundly proven wrong here by nearly every person to enter this thread, any last closing arguments before this thread ends?




Close it go right ahead, but i wasn't soundly proven wrong as you said 


time will tell


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## The Fourth Hokage (Nov 28, 2006)

there's really nothing to add.  So many people have it straight already.  Instantaneous teleportation always wins out over having to traverse the distance at whatever speed.  There's always going to be a difference.  Hiraishin is an unrivaled jutsu, plain and simple


----------



## Tsukiyomi (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> Close it go right ahead, but i wasn't soundly proven wrong as you said
> 
> 
> time will tell



Time will tell...?  Time will tell what?  Since when was Shunshin of any important focus in the manga?

Kishimoto obviously wants us to think of Yondaime as the ideal of what a ninja is (since he is our main heroes ideal to surpass), why would he give him an inferior technique and bother making it an S-rank?

What exactly in the manga is going to happen to "tell" your side?


----------



## Pride (Nov 28, 2006)

The problem is that you think that a 0.00001 second faster move wouldn't help.

If a ninja moved behind you in 0.0001 seconds, it would not seem much different from moving behind you in 0 seconds. That is understandable.

But in the world of ninjas, the higher level ninjas would notice the difference and would be affected by it. 

I'll try to make an example. Suppose a high level ninja like Kakashi could notice a ninja comming behind him at the speed of 0.00001 second. Maybe Itachi with his Sharingan could notice it even if it was 0.000001 second. Then lets put in Gai who could move behind a ninja at 0.000001 second. He would be able to get behind Kakashi without Kakashi being able to react fast enough. However, Itachi would be able to see him comming and maybe counter his attack. Then we put in Yondaime who could move behind a ninja at 0 seconds. Both Kakashi and Itachi would not be able to react to his attack fast enough.

In a high-level ninja fight, Hiraishin would not be effective to be used in the special kunai way, for a *direct* attack. (I understand that it would be effective for dodging attacks later on or getting into good positions instantaneously.) However, if Yondaime is able to plant the seal onto you (which shouldn't be so hard, seeing that high-level ninja always end up comming in contact in fights, just that Yondaime's comming in contact also gives him a huge advantage) then he could unleash attacks on you that could not be perceived. Once the Seal is on the opponent, he wouldn't have to use his Shushin which might be countered, he could use his Hiraishin which can't be detected.

With Shushin there's always a chance that the other ninja would be able to see you comming in that 0.000001 second, but with Hiraishin, no matter what level ninja, it would be impossible to see you comming in that 0 second.

You're picture examples are nothing more than pictures. They do not show the different distance traveled in the amount of time used. They are flawed proof that Hiraishin and Shushin are the same in close combat. Just because you think one *poof* looks just like the other, doesn't mean that the high-leveled ninjas in the manga will think the same.

So in conclusion, Hiraishin vs Shushin would not matter if the ninja could not keep up with the Shushin speed in the first place. But if the ninja could keep up with the Shushin speed, then Hiraishin would be the ticket to victory (speedwise).


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Tsukiyomi said:


> Time will tell...?  Time will tell what?  Since when was Shunshin of any important focus in the manga?



Point out where i said that shunshin was an important focus on the manga? 



> Kishimoto obviously wants us to think of Yondaime as the ideal of what a ninja is (since he is our main heroes ideal to surpass), why would he give him an inferior technique and bother making it an S-rank?



All jutsus are not unbeatable, including hiraishin. 

Many shinobis are ideal to what a shinobi should, especially Sandaime.



> What exactly in the manga is going to happen to "tell" your side?




"Going to tell" if we get to see hiraishin used against people i have mentioned.


----------



## Tsukiyomi (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> Point out where i said that shunshin was an important focus on the manga?



Unless it becomes a focus or gets a lot more explanation time it cannot be proven to be even in the same universe as Hiraishin in terms of power.



B.M.G. said:


> All jutsus are not unbeatable, including hiraishin.
> 
> Many shinobis are ideal to what a shinobi should, especially Sandaime.



I never said it was unbeatable, only that it was a jutsu worthy of Yondaime.

Yondaime is set to be THE ideal, the ideal above all others.  Thats why Naruto, our main hero, is focused entirely on surpassing Yondaime, not Sandaime.

He's been shown to be a genius who instead of going the traditional route (like Sandaime did, learning all the existing moves) he created moves of his own which transcended that which already existed (no offensive move can really compare to Shiki Fuujin).



B.M.G. said:


> "Going to tell" if we get to see hiraishin used against people i have mentioned.



Oh come on, what are the odds of that happening?  Hiraishin used against Gai?

Even if it were used, it almost certainly won't be from Yondaime,  and unless its from him its not really a valid comparison.

If Yondaime were pitted against Itachi or Gai you can be certain Kishimoto would have Yondaime win, hid power is far more important to the story.


----------



## louis (Nov 28, 2006)

Tsukiyomi said:


> If there is no difference, then why is it that Yondaime became legendary because of this single move?  Why is it that because of this single move, entire armies were told to run if they saw him?
> 
> If Shunshin (a very common ninja move) is truly the same as Hiraishin, why would the enemies of Konoha fear it at all?
> 
> ...




QFT i agree withe this


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## Shidoshi (Nov 28, 2006)

Tsukiyomi said:


> An image of foresight?  Foresight on teleportation?  Sharingan predicts movements by following an opponents body movements and muscle movements and predicting future movements, you can't use that to predict teleportation because it doesn't work the same way as normal movement.


That's not what Sasuke said he saw when he saw those shadow images after his eyes evolved.  He didn't say "based on how Naruto's muscles move", he said "based on how power (chikara/chakra) flows through his body".  Big difference.  The sharingan *can* see the internal flow of chakra.  

_That_ much was plainly obvious during the Gaiden.



> _You're basing that on absolutely nothing._


You're incorrect.  

Please note:  I'm not saying someone like Itachi definitely could, but that it's plausible.

And even if an Uchiha with mastered sharingan eyes *did* witness the jutsu at the initialization phase (and saw shadow image/s), that doesn't automatically mean they'd be fast enough to react to it (a la, Chuunin Exam Sasuke and Lee's first "fight").


----------



## Tsukiyomi (Nov 28, 2006)

Shidoshi said:


> That's not what Sasuke said he saw when he saw those shadow images after his eyes evolved.  He didn't say "based on how Naruto's muscles move", he said "based on how power (chikara/chakra) flows through his body".  Big difference.  The sharingan *can* see the internal flow of chakra.
> 
> _That_ much was plainly obvious during the Gaiden.
> 
> ...



How can you predict a movement that has NO PHYSICAL MOVEMENT?  There is no path to follow with your eyes, no physical movement to predict.

Even if there were, it is instantaneous, you cannot predict a movement that is done before you're even done perceiving it.


----------



## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Tsukiyomi said:


> Unless it becomes a focus or gets a lot more explanation time it cannot be proven to be even in the same universe as Hiraishin in terms of power.



and i already stated the difference, which i agreed that hiraishin is superior to shunshin in certain areas such as long distances, tag, etc, but not in close range.



> I never said it was unbeatable, only that it was a jutsu worthy of Yondaime.




You kind of sounded like like no jutsu can compete with any of his jutsus. 



> Yondaime is set to be THE ideal, the ideal above all others.  Thats why Naruto, our main hero, is focused entirely on surpassing Yondaime, not Sandaime.



We know why Naruto aspire to be like Yondaime and not Sandiame.

1. Naruto is from a new generation, so he grew. up hearig the legend of Yondaime not Sandaime. Hey, My hero die the same die i was born, i like him already!

2. He sees Sandaime as an old fart, and what he doesn't know is that that old fart is the Strongest Hokage in History, reason why he was also called God of the Shinobis.

3. Naruto has been compared to Yondaime so of course he will like to be Yondaime, young and brave.



> He's been shown to be a genius who instead of going the traditional route (like Sandaime did, learning all the existing moves) he created moves of his own which transcended that which already existed



All shinobis, especially Hokages have been shown a genius. We don't know where the detah God jutsu came from but Yondiame didn't craete it because he would be dead. You need to develop a jutsu, which means practicing it. so i doubt the death God was kind to let Yondaime summon his multiples times. Yondi must have found it in a scroll or learn it from someone else.



> (no offensive move can really compare to Shiki Fuujin).



there are many jutsu that can overcome the death god jutsu, since Yondaime is not invunerable.

 there is an a basic jutsu it all it take.

You go underground, and then Yondaime is fucked because he doesn't have anyone to drag their soul. Imagine if Kakashi has the invinsible jutsu as seen in the Gaiden?




> Oh come on, what are the odds of that happening?  Hiraishin used against Gai



hey, what were the chaces that Kakashi had copied rasengan?

What were the chances that Naruto took classed from Azuma?



> Even if it were used, it almost certainly won't be from Yondaime,  and unless its from him its not really a valid comparison.



then we better see more Yondaime flashbacks. 



> If Yondaime were pitted against Itachi or Gai you can be certain Kishimoto would have Yondaime win, hid power is far more important to the story.



I'm pretty sure he won't, especially against Itachi.

Gai was stated that when he opens the 8 gates he is stronger than a Hokage, unless you want to tell me Yondaime was a super saiyajin level 3.


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## Uzumaki Yondaime (Nov 28, 2006)

wow and you guys are still at it.  You know BMG has been proven wrong in practically every single post but the guy is just like ignorant and keeps denying everything.  Can someone please just end this, like the same points have been stated but the guy just won't listen.  Stop trying to be a more intelligent sounding Ando because you're not doing a good job of it.  What Kishimoto says is law.  You can say he contradicts himself or he made a mistake or whatever but in the end what Kishimoto says is canon.  If Kishimoto says that Hirashin ia a genin rank jutsu then that is just what it is.  But in this case Hirashin is a highly powerful jutsu while Shushin is just a basic speed technique that all ninjas need to know.  Not to mention Yondaime has both so its already a one sided victory for the guy.


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## dregoth (Nov 28, 2006)

Tsukiyomi said:


> How can you predict a movement that has NO PHYSICAL MOVEMENT?  There is no path to follow with your eyes, no physical movement to predict.
> 
> Even if there were, it is instantaneous, you cannot predict a movement that is done before you're even done perceiving it.



Kuchiyose can be countered/nullified. Sarutobi did it. If he could predict the Edo tensei he'd have a better chance of countering the jutsu as a whole. A Kage level Uchiha with super fast seal speed would have a chance to counter the jutsu...



Chi said:


> The case is... He doesn't know when Hirashin is coming and even if he knows it coming he doesn't have ANY time to react and create clone.
> Handseals still require time. Hirashin is instant. It doesn't take time. That's the whole difference.
> 
> 
> Anyway.. i'm done with this topic. You've been proven wrong a lot of times already. If you want to belive in it so much then please go ahead.



Funny, yondaime was performing handseals before he killed 50 rock nins.


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## chakra-burned (Nov 28, 2006)

Nope. Sarutobi had to spend a bit of time prepping for the anti-summon. Which is why Oro got two Hokages in before Sarutobi could stop him. In that amount of time you'd be lying on the floor with a kunai in your head. Also, he took that amount of time to stop one summon. In the (very likely) event that there are multiple markers in the area you're still just as screwed.


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## dregoth (Nov 28, 2006)

chakra-burned said:


> Nope. Sarutobi had to spend a bit of time prepping for the anti-summon. Which is why Oro got two Hokages in before Sarutobi could stop him. In that amount of time you'd be lying on the floor with a kunai in your head. Also, he took that amount of time to stop one summon. In the (very likely) event that there are multiple markers in the area you're still just as screwed.



If the activation can be predicted and the handseals for anti-summon are fast enough I don't see how this is an issue.

Hiraishin is a great jutsu, but most people insist on the fact that it kills by itself and its "instanteouness". Hardly I see any concrete example or possible combination with the jutsu. 

How would Yondaime kill Sasori? Even if he is super hyper fast he would need to damage the armor. A kunai can't do the job, so teoretically only rasengan is left. But he can't make a rasengan and teleport, because hiraishin needs handseals (unless he is like haku). So...


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## TheoDerek (Nov 28, 2006)

I agree with this thread, but with a slight twist.  A Sharingan user can use shunshin and have it be similar to hiraishin.  And I believe Sasuke will be that Sharingan user.  Shisui of the mirage was known for his incredible use of shunshin.  And if you think about it that makes sense.  Everything Naruto has Sasuke has an equivalent and vice versa.

Sasuke has Chidori, Naruto has Rasengan
Sasuke has Sharingan to help his taijutsu, Naruto has KB to help his taijutsu
Sasuke can/will summon snakes, Naruto can summon frogs
Sasuke has a "that jutsu", Naruto is getting the complete Rasengan
Sasuke will have Sharingan/Sunshin, Naruto will have Hiraishin


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## B.M.G. (Nov 28, 2006)

Sasuke3759 said:


> I agree with this thread, but with a slight twist.  A Sharingan user can use shunshin and have it be similar to hiraishin.  And I believe Sasuke will be that Sharingan user.  Shisui of the mirage was known for his incredible use of shunshin.  And if you think about it that makes sense.  Everything Naruto has Sasuke has an equivalent and vice versa.
> 
> Sasuke has Chidori, Naruto has Rasengan
> Sasuke has Sharingan to help his taijutsu, Naruto has KB to help his taijutsu
> ...



Looking at that way it also makes sense.


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## chakra-burned (Nov 28, 2006)

That part of killing instantaneously is a leap of logic on your part. We're saying that it's speed in unmatched, resulting in its ability to kill instantly. Note this is made in a general context not including exceptions. 

The Anti-summon will never be fast enough because the moment you even attempt to respond you're already stabbed in the back. That's the meaning of instantaneous. In the case of the Sharingan the moment you see the chakra being allocated it's already too late. That important instant where you see the jutsu being cast is the exact same instant you will find the user of the Hiraishin behind you. Of course this is all conjecture on the nature of chakra and seal usage, but inductive reasoning would seem to indicate that at least some cases yield very quick results. No one really can provide a solid and legitimate argument for this topic though, so no one can really claim they're right.


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## louis (Nov 28, 2006)

^^^^i think the treads over


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## Shishi-O (Nov 28, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> Here is something that i hope people would understand.
> 
> *Hiraishin is no different than shushin in close range combat. * People's answer to everything concerning Yondaime is always Hiraishin, and how no one can deal with teleporttation in order to counter attack, evade, etc. This thread is meant to put this myth to rest.
> 
> ...


hiraishin as you can see here

Buzz Killington 

is teleportation, true.

but if everyone you are fighting are moving the speed of a tortoise( slower actually) then hiraishin is actually superior to sunshin in speed.

thank you.


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## lyrs_amv (Nov 28, 2006)

Prediction is based on sensory.  You can't predict something when the rate of events occuring are faster than your ability to detect them.

However, this argument of "closed small places" and super speed is simply an derivative of mathemetics/calculus.  Essentially, 0.00000001~ is the same as 0.  0.9999999999~ is also the same as 1.

Nevertheless, this argument does not work with the Narutoverse.


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## chakra-burned (Nov 28, 2006)

At the same time the argument about .000001 and limits depends on the domain you're looking at. From an end behavior perspective .000001 is just as good as zero but from the reference point of someone who is at .000001 0 is still infinite magnitudes ahead of it. It's exactly like light relativity and chasing a beam of light. No matter how fast you are, even approaching 30000000 m/s, light will always be ahead of you with a "nyah nyah you'll never catch me" tone.


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## Shidoshi (Nov 28, 2006)

Tsukiyomi said:


> How can you predict a movement that has NO PHYSICAL MOVEMENT?  There is no path to follow with your eyes, no physical movement to predict.


It wouldn't be the "movement" that would be predicted, it would be the jutsu (and it's end result) that would be predicted.  You think the only thing that can be predicted is physical movement?



> _Even if there were, it is instantaneous, you cannot predict a movement that is done before you're even done perceiving it._


Correction:  Once the "portal" is opened, his reappearance is instantaneous after he "disappears", but there has to be a point in time where chakra is molded in order to open the "portal" between the two points in space-time in the first place, since it's ninjutsu and ninjutsu requires chakra, there's a flow of it.  It would be at that point that the end result (teleportation end point) could *plausibly* (and note the difference between "plausibly" and "definitely" here, it's very important) be seen.  There's still a passage of time, just not while he's in "transit".

At that point, it would be up to the ninja to react to what he forsees, if he's physically able to do so.


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## louis (Nov 28, 2006)

Sasuke3759 said:


> I agree with this thread, but with a slight twist.  A Sharingan user can use shunshin and have it be similar to hiraishin.  And I believe Sasuke will be that Sharingan user.  Shisui of the mirage was known for his incredible use of shunshin.  And if you think about it that makes sense.  Everything Naruto has Sasuke has an equivalent and vice versa.
> 
> Sasuke has Chidori, Naruto has Rasengan
> Sasuke has Sharingan to help his taijutsu, Naruto has KB to help his taijutsu
> ...






fixed it for you

Sasuke has Chidori, Naruto has Rasengan
Sasuke has Sharingan to help his taijutsu, Naruto has KB to help his taijutsu
Sasuke can/will summon snakes, Naruto can summon frogs
Sasuke has a "that jutsu", Naruto has "that jutsu"
Sasuke will have NOTHING to go aginst Hiraishin, Naruto will have Hiraishin


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## MS81 (Nov 28, 2006)

louis said:


> fixed it for you
> 
> Sasuke has Chidori, Naruto has Rasengan
> Sasuke has Sharingan to help his taijutsu, Naruto has KB to help his taijutsu
> ...



nah Sasuke will have sushin and Naruto will have *Nothing*we have yet to see what Hiraishin even looks like other than Narutimate Hero. but IMO
Naruto would've used it already if he had it.


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## chakra-burned (Nov 28, 2006)

Yeah and Kakashi had chidori. But did he use it in his first full fledged fight? Nub --;. Point is, if he doesn't know it now he'll probably learn it later.


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## Vandal Savage (Nov 28, 2006)

I really only read the first page but a number of people have already proven this wrong. Whether in close range or in combat, Hiraishin is better than shunshin. It doesn't matter if you are at close range and someone uses extreme speed against you because Hirishin is instantaneous. No matter how fast someone is, even at close range, Hiraishin will beat it because it will look like the person is not moving. You think Yondaime only used Hiraishin on people who ran away from him and unmoving targets? In that case it wouldn't matter what technique someone used because they would not be reacting to what there opponent does and would get killed on the spot.


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## Blitzkrieg (Nov 28, 2006)

This pretty much sum's it up.


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## ez (Nov 28, 2006)

loL tdultima just served those who thought shunshin could compare to Hiraishin


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## TheoDerek (Nov 28, 2006)

louis said:


> fixed it for you
> 
> Sasuke has Chidori, Naruto has Rasengan
> Sasuke has Sharingan to help his taijutsu, Naruto has KB to help his taijutsu
> ...


Sasuke will either use shunshin like Shisui did or he will have some sort of MS teleporting jutsus.  Take your pick.


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## ez (Nov 28, 2006)

MS teleporting jutsus? LOL


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## louis (Nov 28, 2006)

Sasuke3759 said:


> Sasuke will either use shunshin like Shisui did or he will have some sort of MS teleporting jutsus.  Take your pick.



I was just joking about sasuke having nothing  aginst Hiraishin I don't naruto learn Hiraishin but instead make his own trademark move but if he does learn Hiraishin then sasuke might be able to use shunshin like Shisui.


I really want to know what sasuke will have against the wind Rasengan


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## So_Smart_s0_Dumb (Nov 28, 2006)

Sasuke3759 said:


> Sasuke will either use shunshin like Shisui did or he will have some sort of MS teleporting jutsus.  Take your pick.



In case you haven't realized, this media format we are being entertained by, is called Naruto, also... if you have any literary skills whatsoever or if you are familiar with the plots of books or shows with a protagonist like Naruto (ie DBZ) then you should realize that Naruto IS going to be stronger then Sasuke because Naruto is going to have to beat villians stronger then Sasuke and Sasuke is his rival.

I'm not saying he won't get a jutsu to match Naruto's, I can't predict the details of the future of this manga but all I know is that Naruto is going to become alot stronger (if he already hasn't... i think he has, now it's about using his creativity and such)


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## So_Smart_s0_Dumb (Nov 29, 2006)

This thread is full of win, it should be stickied


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## ♠Mr.Nibbles♠ (Nov 29, 2006)

So_Smart_s0_Dumb said:


> In case you haven't realized, this media format we are being entertained by, is called Naruto, also... if you have any literary skills whatsoever or if you are familiar with the plots of books or shows with a protagonist like Naruto (ie DBZ) then you should realize that Naruto IS going to be stronger then Sasuke because Naruto is going to have to beat villians stronger then Sasuke and Sasuke is his rival.
> 
> I'm not saying he won't get a jutsu to match Naruto's, I can't predict the details of the future of this manga but all I know is that Naruto is going to become alot stronger (if he already hasn't... i think he has, now it's about using his creativity and such)



ahh damn it, we got noise from the peanut gallery again


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## Shidoshi (Nov 29, 2006)

ezxx said:


> MS teleporting jutsus? LOL


Yeah...how ridiculous is *that*?  I mean, using an eye to open an aperture between dimensions to send stuff from one point in space-time to anoth-...

...wait.










Yeah.....that's _right_, Sparky, Kakashi has a Mangekyou Sharingan jutsu that does something kinda similar to that, doesn't he?


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## TheoDerek (Nov 29, 2006)

louis said:


> I really want to know what sasuke will have against the wind Rasengan


Sasuke will have his "that jutsu."





So_Smart_s0_Dumb said:


> In case you haven't realized, this media format we are being entertained by, is called Naruto, also... if you have any literary skills whatsoever or if you are familiar with the plots of books or shows with a protagonist like Naruto (ie DBZ) then you should realize that Naruto IS going to be stronger then Sasuke because Naruto is going to have to beat villians stronger then Sasuke and Sasuke is his rival.


Naruto is going to be stronger than Sasuke because Sasuke is his rival?  This doesn't make any sense.  Rivals are constantly working to keep up with eachother.

Also, in Rurouni Kenshin the character Saito was stronger than Kenshin(who the series is named after mind you...  Sound familiar?).  The author of Rurouni Kenshin said that the only way Kenshin would beat Saito is if he was protecting his important people.  Sounds a lot like the "will of fire" doesn't it?





			
				So_Smart_s0_Dumb said:
			
		

> I'm not saying he won't get a jutsu to match Naruto's, I can't predict the details of the future of this manga but all I know is that Naruto is going to become alot stronger (if he already hasn't... i think he has, now it's about using his creativity and such)


When did I ever say Naruto wasn't going to become stronger?  And how does Naruto becoming stronger hault Sasuke's growth?


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## chakra-burned (Nov 29, 2006)

Shidoshi said:


> Yeah...how ridiculous is *that*?  I mean, using an eye to open an aperture between dimensions to send stuff from one point in space-time to anoth-...
> 
> ...wait.
> 
> ...



Too bad it murders your stamina and it's only a one way trip. Now honestly, barring possible how _plausible_ is it?


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## rorykage (Nov 29, 2006)

first this thread was about hiraishin vs shunshin.

it was deformed into a debate about hiraishin's abiltiy to insta-kill.

please, don't turn this into a sasuke vs naruto thing.

i pray to Mod, let this thread die.


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## TheoDerek (Nov 29, 2006)

chakra-burned said:


> Too bad it murders your stamina and it's only a one way trip. Now honestly, barring possible how _plausible_ is it?


Yondaime teleports left and right, but he doesn't seem to have any problems with his stamina being murdered.  Just becasue it is a MS jutsu doesn't mean it has to cost a lot of chakra.  Also, it is possible that Kakashi's MS jutsu takes a lot of chakra because it sends its target to another dimension.

And Hiraishin is also a one way trip.  To the tag...


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## Kwheeler (Nov 29, 2006)

> Also, in Rurouni Kenshin the character Saito was stronger than Kenshin(who the series is named after mind you... Sound familiar?). The author of Rurouni Kenshin said that the only way Kenshin would beat Saito is if he was protecting his important people. Sounds a lot like the "will of fire" doesn't it?


Hmm, i never knew that Saito was confirmed to be stronger than Kenshin, but then again powerlevels never really factored into RK battles, it was always morew about a person's combat style, with speed being the only apparent "absolute"(I remember a lot of emphasis being put towards really, really fast characters like Kenshin or Sojiro).

Anyway, this thread is full of ignorance and win, to even think Hiraishin and Shunshin in the same league is blasphemy...may Aoba's crows feast upon thy souls, unbelievers.

and...





> Yondaime teleports left and right, but he doesn't seem to have any problems with his stamina being murdered. Just becasue it is a MS jutsu doesn't mean it has to cost a lot of chakra.



I think he was talking about Kakashi's MS jutsu merely warping the target to another dimension, while Hiraishin actually warps the user to another dimension, then pulls them back into the original dimension.  And about a teleporting MS jutsu, honestly if it works like Kakashi's then it wouldnt be too much of a stretch to assume that it would not only be more complicated than Kakashi's, but also tax the body more, and it seems to have been a trend so far for MS specific jutsu's to kill your chakra supply.


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## chakra-burned (Nov 29, 2006)

Sasuke3759 said:


> Yondaime teleports left and right, but he doesn't seem to have any problems with his stamina being murdered.  Just becasue it is a MS jutsu doesn't mean it has to cost a lot of chakra.  Also, it is possible that Kakashi's MS jutsu takes a lot of chakra because it sends its target to another dimension.
> 
> And Hiraishin is also a one way trip.  To the tag...


That's why Yondaime uses seals. Seals do the incredible things that the human body can't. And though it's not rule that Mangekyou must take up lots of stamina, that seems to be the case every time it's used. And when it's such a pain to open just one hole in space time imagine doing that 2 times. With the accuracy necessary to make it effective. Case closed --;


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## TheoDerek (Nov 29, 2006)

Kwheeler said:


> Anyway, this thread is full of ignorance and win, *to even think Hiraishin and Shunshin in the same league is blasphemy*...may Aoba's crows feast upon thy souls, unbelievers.


Sharingan can do some mighty things.  I wouldn't doubt its power.





			
				Kwheeler said:
			
		

> I think he was talking about Kakashi's MS jutsu merely warping the target to another dimension, while Hiraishin actually warps the user to another dimension, then pulls them back into the original dimension. And about a teleporting MS jutsu, honestly if it works like Kakashi's then it wouldnt be too much of a stretch to assume that it would not only be more complicated than Kakashi's, but also tax the body more, and it seems to have been a trend so far for MS specific jutsu's to kill your chakra supply.


I don't think Kakashi's MS jutsu kills chakra as much as you would think.  He isn't an Uchiha so his MS jutsus would take a lot more out of him than normal.  Kakashi also admitted to having low stamina.  And Kakashi used his MS jutsu 3 times in the same day.

So for Sasuke, an Uchiha that doesn't have a stamina problem, it wouldn't be nearly as bad.





			
				chakra-burned said:
			
		

> That's why Yondaime uses seals. *Seals do the incredible things that the human body can't.* And though it's not rule that Mangekyou must take up lots of stamina, that seems to be the case every time it's used. And when it's such a pain to open just one hole in space time imagine doing that 2 times. With the accuracy necessary to make it effective. Case closed --;


So does the Sharingan.  

Seriously though, I think the Shunshin mastery/Sharingan combo is more likely.


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## chakra-burned (Nov 29, 2006)

Sharingan limits=/=seal limits. Sharingan still limited by the body. That and I have no clue what you mean by Shunshin/Sharingan mastery --; (And don't use Shisui. That's all bs coming from fan masturbation).


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## TheoDerek (Nov 29, 2006)

chakra-burned said:


> Sharingan limits=/=seal limits. Sharingan still limited by the body. That and I have no clue what you mean by Shunshin/Sharingan mastery --; (*And don't use Shisui. That's all bs coming from fan masturbation*).


No, it's in the databook.  I can't seem to find the translation atm, but I will post back when I do find it.


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## jaw679 (Nov 29, 2006)

Hiraishin is instant, Shushin is not. 

If Hiraishin is instant, which it is, then it would take no time to get from one spot to another. With Shushin you are moving, so it will take time. Even it you are moving as little as 5 feet in front of you with Shushin it will still take you a fraction of a second to reach that spot, while with Hiraishin it is instant.

Even if the difference is just a fraction of a second, there is still a difference. Meaning that Hiraishin, no matter what the distance, is better than Shushin.


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## TheoDerek (Nov 29, 2006)

I couldn't find anything on Shisui from the databook.  Maybe I imagined it.  

But what I did find was a post by raijin on Shisui's nickname, "Shunshin no Shisui."





			
				raijin said:
			
		

> Shisui's actual "nickname" was 瞬身のシスイ or "Shunshin no Shisui". Yes, it's the same 瞬身 (shunshin) used in Shunshin no Jutsu.
> 
> So basically, he would literally be known as "Instant Body Shisui" or "Shisui of the Instant Body" or "Body Flicker", if you prefer otherwise.
> 
> ...


Now I know Shunshin isn't instantaneous, but it is fast enough, especially for a Sharingan user.

There is obviously somthing that has to be done to initiate the teleportation with Hiriashin after the tag is placed.  Most likely somthing to do with chakra focusing.  

Lets just pretend Naruto knows Hiraishin(and has placed a tag on Sasuke) and Sasuke has mastered using shunshin in combat.  Naruto will focus the chakra to teleport.  Sasuke will see this with his Sharingan and begin to use shunshin.  The shunshin will happen first, but since it is slower than Hiraishin the end result of both will be achieved near the the same time.


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## Shinnou Genkaku (Nov 29, 2006)

People arent thinking, the threadstarted is right. In a close fight, hiraisin is not better than shunshin. Even if Yondi teleports behind you in .000000  seconds he still needs to percieve his current location and go through the motion of killing you. A shinobi with speed like Sasuke could percievably dodge the attack. Technically in short distances it could be disadvantagous to use hiraisin since it will force u to plan the attack you will use after you teleport in advance and if the opponent can predict where the attack will come from, it will leave you up for an attack


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## Muk (Nov 29, 2006)

* Proof *

*ig?no?rant*
  (gnr-nt)_adj._*1. * Lacking education or knowledge.
*2. * Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge
*3. * Unaware or uninformed.


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## Muk (Nov 29, 2006)

Since BMG loves using physics i'll tell you something.

When activating Hirashin (since it is instant, thus faster then light) Yondaime would be at two places at the same time. He'd be at his last spot and where his seal is. 
By the time light is processed by his enemy, whether or not his sharingan (the eye is still subject to laws of physics, e.g. light doesn't travel faster then light) he'd be dead, because he still thinks yondaime is still infront of him. Means in close range it does matter whether or not yondaime uses hirashin or shushin.

With hirashin, you never see him come at you, since he travels faster then light. You know the teleportation to that earth nin? When Rin saw Yondaime vanished, he was already there, it is just Kishi who cannot draw it in a single panel. And the earth nin still thought yondaime was where rin was, before he felt yondaime's kunai at his neck.

and the 50 earth nin, they didn't even realize yondaime left that big rock he was standing on. To them he was always standing on the rock, while relative to youndaime, he already slain all the nins.

Now that is the difference between Hirashin and Shushin.

Shushin is below light speed, thus never able to match it. The eye can process the infomation as you disappear and reappear.

Hirashin, you still think Yondaime is still at the same spot, but to Yondaime, he already killed you.

Thus YOU PHAIL!

Oh close combat situation.

Yondaime places a seal on Itachi. After some further battleing Itachi shushins and believes finally having landed the final blow on Yondaime, not realizing that Yondaime traveled *faster* then light and had slain Itachi, because he was at 2 places at the same time. DUn DUn DUn Hirashin wins.


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## G3ntleF!st (Nov 29, 2006)

Someone should Hirashin this guyz account to other fourm.......

Hirashin is faster A-C will always be faster then A-B-C becuzzzzzzz you can be killed at point B if you dont understand go back to school.

This is somemore I Need a Rest mumbo jumbo


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## TheoDerek (Nov 29, 2006)

@ Muk

I understand what you are saying, but to capitalize on that Yondaime would have to beable to attack faster than the speed of light as well.  Yondaime cannot stab his opponent in the back or slit their throat before the first "image" of himself disappears.


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## Muk (Nov 29, 2006)

his first image lasts long enough for you to not realise there is more infomation to come. especially to an observer, he'd see 2 yondaime, one still standing there where he was and the other already attacking his enemy in the back.
by the time the first image lands, his attack already landed.

but to make a stupid simple example:
Yondaime casts rasengan. Then he holds out rasengan in streched out hand. Then he hirashin. He doesn't even need to attack and he'd win. He lands behind his enemy right next to him, with his hand touching the enemy, but there is a rasengan in between his hand and where he is touching his enemy. Boom! See he doesn't even need to "attack" while in hirashin. He can do preparations and they'd land their blow. That is what happens when breaking the light barrier. 
You also realize when he rescued Kakashi. He traveled faster then light and taking in infomation that were still to happen. THus he could see the light of what was yet to come/happen, then enemy attacking kakashi and kakashi not able to avoid it 

Thus hirashin is a sharigan what is even better then a sharingan, cause you acutally move and can predict someones action. And the other person is just dumbfold at your ultra speed.


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## TheoDerek (Nov 29, 2006)

Muk said:


> his first image lasts long enough for you to not realise there is more infomation to come. especially to an observer, he'd see 2 yondaime, one still standing there where he was and the other already attacking his enemy in the back.
> by the time the first image lands, his attack already landed.


An observer wouldn't see two Yondaime's.  By the time the observer saw the real Yondaime the "image" would be gone.





			
				Muk said:
			
		

> but to make a stupid simple example:
> Yondaime casts rasengan. Then he holds out rasengan in streched out hand. Then he hirashin. He doesn't even need to attack and he'd win. He lands behind his enemy right next to him, with his hand touching the enemy, but there is a rasengan in between his hand and where he is touching his enemy. Boom! See he doesn't even need to "attack" while in hirashin. He can do preparations and they'd land their blow. That is what happens when breaking the light barrier.


For some reason I wasn't thinking about Rasengan or about using it in that way.  I'll give you that.





			
				Muk said:
			
		

> You also realize when he rescued Kakashi. He traveled faster then light and taking in infomation that were still to happen. THus he could see the light of what was yet to come/happen, then enemy attacking kakashi and kakashi not able to avoid it
> 
> Thus hirashin is a sharigan what is even better then a sharingan, cause you acutally move and can predict someones action. And the other person is just dumbfold at your ultra speed.


I don't agree with this.  I don't think Yondaime can see anything while he is teleporting.  Since it is instantaneous he shouldn't beable to see anything.

What happened in this scenario is Yondaime saw that Kakashi was about to be attacked, then he teleported to Kakashi(Kakashi had Yondi's Kunai w/ a tag on it), slapped a tag on the earth nin, grabbed Kakashi, and teleported back.


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## Hwon (Nov 29, 2006)

This is the dumbest thread I've ever seen thus I must comment on it.

First of all if the debate is whether or not Hiraishin > Shushin in close combat than you need to be more specific.  Each has its advantages and Yondaime utilized both as needed. Hiraishin is faster, not impeded by objects, and requires no physical effort to come to a full stop.  The down sides are the requirements to complete the jutsu and the fact that its point to point making it easier to predict where the person would appear. However, if the seal is placed on an enemy regardless of how fast or far he moves he would not be able to avoid Hiraishin.

Remeber Yondaime was very very fast even with out Hiraishin and he probably even used Hiraishin and Shushin together.  I mean teleport to a spot instantly to than begin moving at almost untraceable speeds only than to instantly be gone again.  Now if we are talking about Naruto or some other person using Hiraishin than obviously he should never use it in close combat other than to run away because hes not exactly fast yet.


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## Oldy (Nov 29, 2006)

Muk said:


> his first image lasts long enough for you to not realise there is more infomation to come. especially to an observer, he'd see 2 yondaime, one still standing there where he was and the other already attacking his enemy in the back.
> by the time the first image lands, his attack already landed.


Only if light got real sluggish and Yondaime could move at light speed.
By the moment Yondaime starts _to think_to move, the image of his previous location would be gone already.


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## Muk (Nov 29, 2006)

Oldy said:


> Only if light got real sluggish and Yondaime could move at light speed.
> By the moment Yondaime starts _to think_to move, the image of his previous location would be gone already.



To bend time and space as Hirashin is defined as Yondaime moves faster then light, not at or below light speed.


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## Oldy (Nov 29, 2006)

Muk said:


> To bend time and space as Hirashin is defined as Yondaime moves faster then light, not at or below light speed.


I meant after the teleportation.
If Yondaime teleport 30m away the "after image" would last 0.00000001s which is way too fast for informations to be processed by the brain to do anything. Before the 4th could strike or think to strike his opponent, it would be long gone.


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## neoalpha (Nov 29, 2006)

Muk said:


> Since BMG loves using physics i'll tell you something.
> 
> When activating Hirashin (since it is instant, thus faster then light) Yondaime would be at two places at the same time. He'd be at his last spot and where his seal is.
> By the time light is processed by his enemy, whether or not his sharingan (the eye is still subject to laws of physics, e.g. light doesn't travel faster then light) he'd be dead, because he still thinks yondaime is still infront of him. Means in close range it does matter whether or not yondaime uses hirashin or shushin.
> ...



*People who know nothing about physics should leave physics out of this.* If you want to use physics, PLEASE know what you are saying before you make yourself sound stupid.
Simple concepts:
Instantaneous: an instant, is the LIMIT as time (for example) approaches some value. In math, this is denoted as lim(t;t->t0), where t0 is some certain value. So, for instance, t->0 becomes "0". This is rather important because of the definition of the derivative (derivative is defined as the instantaneous rate of change). When concerning anti-derivatives, look at the end of it (such as "dx," or "dy,"... these are the "itty bitty infinitesimally small"). Ok, now that you know what an instant is, we can bring relativity in.
1. An object with MASS cannot go at the speed of light. 
Q: Does Yondaime have mass?
A: Yes
Q: Can he go at the speed of light?
A: No
*We'll use the equation E=[(mc^2)/(1-v^2/c^2)] (this isn't how we'd really solve it, it is technically a bit more complicated, but we'll keep it simple) for a second, and say for instance that we REALLY wanted him to go at the speed of light. So if v=c, E = mc^2/(1-1)... HMMM... problem? yes. mc^2/0... big problem  (technically it's infinity because of L'Hopitals rule... but I'll skip the explanation). In the end, it'd take an infinite amount of energy, sooo... we're fucked there. And if we want Yondaime to go faster, we get negative energy (which makes us more fucked).
Now, some people will say "yeah, but there have been experiments showing you can teleport shit." Ahhh, but did they teleport mass or did they teleport PHOTONS? Photons (luxons) have no mass, soooo.... they can travel at the speed of light-- they ALWAYS go at the speed of light. Even if we use StarTrek teleporters, it takes time to disassemble the person/object and reassemble them, so even if it appears to be instantaneous, it isn't. Even in the StarTrek universe you can't travel faster than light w/o warp fields/hyperspace/subspace. Same thing goes with Star Wars. Sorry trekies and star wars fans, you're out of luck here. 
2. On going faster than light...
Q: Can Yondaime go faster than light?
A: No, he is not a tachyon (this kinda deals with supersymmetry, causality, quantum physics, and whatnot... and again, I'm going to keep things simple).
So, since Yondaime isn't made up of imaginary mass, he obviously isn't going to go faster than light. Another problem presented is the symmetry factor. Essentially, particles (e.g. elections) have counterpart anti-particles (e.g positions). So we (brandyons- things that travel slower than light) must have an opposite-- enter the tachyon. The problem with the tachyon is that it ALWAYS goes faster than light. It (the tachyon) always wants to go at some infinitely large speed. To slow the tachyon down, it would require energy. Again, we hit the light speed barrier. To slow the tachyon down to the speed of light would take an infinite amount of energy. So, I guess we're fucked there too. Yondaime isn't a luxon either (luxon - a particle that always travels at the speed of light i.e. photon).
3. Hirashin or Shushin, which is faster?


			
				Sojobo said:
			
		

> Someone should Hirashin this guyz account to other fourm.......
> 
> Hirashin is faster A-C will always be faster then A-B-C becuzzzzzzz you can be killed at point B if you dont understand go back to school.
> 
> This is somemore I Need a Rest mumbo jumbo


No. Suppose we have a wormhole. The wormhole gets you from point A to point B. Even using the wormhole, you don't go from point A to point B. It only appears that you do. In reality, you go A-C-B (that looks kinda weird, eh? A-C-B). This is because you exit 4-space (3d+time). Now, relativistically speaking, he does appear to travel at the speed of light in the wormhole, the problem is that you can't travel faster than light. Suppose you have 2 blackholes 100 light years apart. You enter in point A, you exit point B. You feel like no time went by, but in reality, 100 years went by. In this case, the wormhole acts like a time machine. So even if Yondaime could create a wormhole, it'd still take time . Again, what is faster? Hiraishin or Shushin? The answer in our universe is neither. In either case we're still limited to sub-light speeds. In the Narutoverse, Hiraishin is said to be faster. Yondaime is the yellow flash... but flash is a flashy word... you can say I'll be back in a flash. That doesn't mean you'll be back in 0 seconds. You can't (if you want to move somewhere). Flash... in the case of Yondaime, or anything made up of mass is like... suppose Yondaime went at .9999c, the light that shines off him goes at the speed of light, but Yondaime doesn't (no, you can't add .9999c to c and get 1.9999c, it doesn't work like that, sorry. Light travels at the speed of light, the end, period. No Galilean relativity... no einstein-bose condensate crap).

So in the end, Hiraishin wins in the Narutoverse. Unless Gai uses his gates technique and can suddenly travel at .99999999c with Shushin, only then does he have a chance. Realistically, impulses typically travel along neurons at a speed of anywhere from 1 to 120 meters per second. So still, even if you could travel at 120 m/s, that limits you to approx 0.0746mi/s which is approx 270mi/hr. I hope this puts an end to this crap/debate/whatever you wanna call it.

edit:
I also forgot to mention that Yondaime CANNOT be at 2 places at the same time. That would ADD energy to the universe. This breaks the laws of thermodynamics. 
1st law: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it _cannot be created or destroyed_. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another. The First Law of Thermodynamics (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one form into another.


----------



## Cal (Nov 29, 2006)

i'll give you credit, nice theory dude


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## Chi (Nov 29, 2006)

neoalpha said:


> *People who know nothing about physics should leave physics out of this.* If you want to use physics, PLEASE know what you are saying before you make yourself sound stupid.
> Simple concepts:
> Instantaneous: an instant, is the LIMIT as time (for example) approaches some value. In math, this is denoted as lim(t;t->t0), where t0 is some certain value. So, for instance, t->0 becomes "0". This is rather important because of the definition of the derivative (derivative is defined as the instantaneous rate of change). When concerning anti-derivatives, look at the end of it (such as "dx," or "dy,"... these are the "itty bitty infinitesimally small"). Ok, now that you know what an instant is, we can bring relativity in.
> 1. An object with MASS cannot go at the speed of light.
> ...


 

You draw to much physics in it.

And:


> Contrary to popular belief, Einstein never claimed that it was impossible to go faster than light: it was assumed from his equations. He however has no objections to accepting that spacetime fabric can travel faster than light. It is hypothesized that at the beginning of the universe, spacetime fabric travelled faster than light. Therefore, if we could bend spacetime, we could travel faster than light. Miguel Alcubierre theorized that it would be possible to "warp" spacetime by shrinking spacetime in front of you and expanding it behind you. Such warping would require a source of negative energy which would act as anti-gravity. A possible candidate is the dark energy of cosmology. However it is not clear if dark energy even exists and if it does what its properties are.


 
It's not the case anyway since the real science can't really be applied to fictional manga.

And as I understood, if it's really instant (really impossible to believe if you apply it to the real world) then Yondaime will be already behind enemy's back before his image from the previous spot will travel the distance between his last position and the enemy. It's not like there are 2 Yondaimes. He has only one physical body. What enemy sees is only a "mirage'. It's the image of Yondaime that still travels towards enemy.
Of course normal eye won't register the difference. And it's sounds totally crazy, but this is manga where everything is possible..


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## Rikudou (Nov 29, 2006)

neoalpha said:


> *People who know nothing about physics should leave physics out of this.* If you want to use physics, PLEASE know what you are saying before you make yourself sound stupid.
> Simple concepts:
> Instantaneous: an instant, is the LIMIT as time (for example) approaches some value. In math, this is denoted as lim(t;t->t0), where t0 is some certain value. So, for instance, t->0 becomes "0". This is rather important because of the definition of the derivative (derivative is defined as the instantaneous rate of change). When concerning anti-derivatives, look at the end of it (such as "dx," or "dy,"... these are the "itty bitty infinitesimally small"). Ok, now that you know what an instant is, we can bring relativity in.
> 1. An object with MASS cannot go at the speed of light.
> ...



Thanks neoaplha very interesting read, but what if you connect matter with antimatter? I know that the energy is then released in the form of Gamma rays and photons, but doesn't that energy weaken over a large distance?
And if Energy is always constant, where did all the matter come from? How was the particle created than caused the Big Bang?

I noticed you are quite informed on these subjects, so I'm eagerly awaiting your response.  This has been bothering me for quite some time.


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## Draffut (Nov 29, 2006)

dregoth said:


> Btw, it was never stated hiraishin is instantaneous in the legitimate sense of the word.
> 
> Instantenous for shinobis can be something around Mach 5.
> 
> In physics there's nothing instantaneous, period.



Ok, i know this is like 5 pages back.  but it's where i left off yesterday, give me time to catch up.

Instantaneous, is what it says, instantaneous.  there is no travel time.  If you want to throw physics at me, instantaneous would be acieved by reaching the speed of light, at which point (according to the theory of relativity) time stops.  But then you have to take into account that this is a Manga, and regular laws of physics dont really apply.



Sasuke3759 said:


> Sharingan can do some mighty things.  I wouldn't doubt its power.I don't think Kakashi's MS jutsu kills chakra as much as you would think.  He isn't an Uchiha so his MS jutsus would take a lot more out of him than normal.  Kakashi also admitted to having low stamina.  And Kakashi used his MS jutsu 3 times in the same day.
> 
> So for Sasuke, an Uchiha that doesn't have a stamina problem, it wouldn't be nearly as bad.So does the Sharingan.
> 
> Seriously though, I think the Shunshin mastery/Sharingan combo is more likely.



Tell me a single MS jutsu so far that hasn't been Chakra intensive.  even the ones that Itachi utalized used up most of his reserves.  No reason that this one jutsu would not be as taxing as all the other ones.

Also, people are sitting here assuming "Sasuke can see someone charge chakra with Hirashin."  Wouldn't one of the hundreds of ninja Yondaime fought noticed that and been able to counter it?  It is not that simple, as even in the many, many battles he was in, neither his enemies, or teamates (with Sharingan mind you) figured out how the jutsu worked.


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## Rikudou (Nov 29, 2006)

Draffut said:


> instantaneous would be acieved by reaching the speed of light, at which point (according to the theory of relativity) time stops.



I'm a law student, and never got this stuff explained to me, but can you please explain to me why time stops when you move at the speed of light?


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## DeepThought (Nov 29, 2006)

Since light actually has a speed (1,079,252,848.8 km/h). Time wouldn't exactly "stop" but you would be moving so fast, that relativity dictates everything else would appear to be moving slower.  Light is so fats, that the relative speed is so close to nothing... it's nothing.  Time stops.

This is not a scientific debate anyway.
Here's a simple way to settle it.

Nightcrawler vs original Quicksilver

Quicksilver is fast, but Nightcrawler teleports in an instant.  Quick! to the BattleDome!

(Before someone asks, I'm not including the Flash because he's a) DC universe b) way to fast.  I don't think Shushin allows you to travel fast enough to break the space/time continuum)


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## Draffut (Nov 29, 2006)

DeepThought said:


> Since light actually has a speed (1,079,252,848.8 km/h). Time wouldn't exactly "stop" but you would be moving so fast, that relativity dictates everything else would appear to be moving slower.  Light is so fats, that the relative speed is so close to nothing... it's nothing.  Time stops.



Pretty much, Neoalpha could probobly explain it far better then I ever could.



> This is not a scientific debate anyway.
> Here's a simple way to settle it.
> 
> Nightcrawler vs Quicksilver
> ...



If Shinsui did, your muscles would explode from the strain and friction caused anyhow.  Shushin is still limited by your body's abiltiy to move at those incredible speeds.  (kinda like the gates) while Hirashin isn't.


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## Splintered (Nov 29, 2006)

Like it or not, teleportation and extreme speed are different close range or otherwise.  You can counter extreme speed with extreme speed.  Teleportation to a specific object, especially if your target is the actual fighter, can't be countered.  Personally, I think the best way to fight it having extreme speeds in a close area, but that just limits some of usefulness, not make them useful.


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## DeepThought (Nov 29, 2006)

Actually, if you want to keep this scientific, Shushin isn't extremly fast.
At least, it doesn't break the sound barrier.  If it did, there would be a sonic boom everytime someone used it.  As far back as I can remember, there haven't been any large "BOOM" sound effects used in the manga when someone uses body flicker.  

So technically, you could shoot someone who knows body flicker.


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## Splintered (Nov 29, 2006)

DeepThought said:


> Actually, if you want to keep this scientific, Shushin isn't extremly fast.
> At least, it doesn't break the sound barrier.  If it did, there would be a sonic boom everytime someone used it.  As far back as I can remember, there haven't been any large "BOOM" sound effects used in the manga when someone uses body flicker.
> 
> So technically, you could shoot someone who knows body flicker.



This reminds me of the thread that we were debating on how fast can the human eye precieve and how fast is a character going.  I don't remember what the end result was, but I thought we would be at least be able to see a blur in a fight if they were going under the speed of sound...  *not good at physics*


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## The_Leader (Nov 29, 2006)

Do people bother trying to remember what the tag is FOR?

You CANNOT judge distance _when you're in a state transcending it. Hirashin is above space._



Chi said:


> And as I understood, if it's really instant (really impossible to believe if you apply it to the real world) then Yondaime will be already behind enemy's back before his image from the previous spot will travel the distance between his last position and the enemy....



That's impossible for Yondaime to do. If he doesn't first actually make the tag on the enemy, then he can't reliably teleport. Guess why?

Hirashin transcends both space and time. He can't think "Oh I'll come out in one second that should be about right behind the enemy's back". That could teleport him one 1 cm forward, or seventy miles forward straight into outer space. It could wind him up in a tree.

The tags exist for a REASON.


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## DeepThought (Nov 29, 2006)

If you think about it.  There is a bit of a blur when people body flicker.  That's why they usually use distracting objects (leaves, sand, whatever)

Let's see here:
The frequency at which flicker becomes invisible is called the , and is dependent on the level of illumination



> That's impossible for Yondaime to do. If he doesn't first actually make the tag on the enemy, then he can't reliably teleport. Guess why?
> 
> Hirashin transcends both space and time. He can't think "Oh I'll come out in one second that should be about right behind the enemy's back". That could teleport him one 1 cm forward, or seventy miles forward straight into outer space. It could wind him up in a tree.
> 
> The tags exist for a REASON.


HAHA. He's not the Millenium Falcon in Hyper Drive...

...

or is he?


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## The_Leader (Nov 29, 2006)

DeepThought said:


> HAHA. He's not the Millenium Falcon in Hyper Drive...
> 
> ...
> 
> or is he?



If he could do that, that would just make the tags and kunais so incredibly unnecessary and stupid that I would vomit.

Not to mention making it _the_ most broken jutsu. EVER.

I would ask why didn't he just teleport Kyuubi into a pocket dimension or a black hole, why wouldn't he just teleport enemies into space or something. It would be far easier than this slitting throat crap.


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## Muk (Nov 29, 2006)

neoalpha said:


> *
> Spoiler:
> 
> 
> ...



Guess what! How about this was for NF audience and I said in another thread that I was simplifying it ... 
Ok, So I didn't state it in this thread, let me state it then.
I am simplifying a lot of physics statements so that the majority can understand me. Too much mumbo jumbo and people are gona go huh and ignore you.

And yes, I appologize to the physics major people since I simplefied it to the point I am sounding like an idiot T_T. Majoring in compsie with physics as a minor and I get bashed by a physics major. Jeez

@splintered:
I think the eyes are able to preceive things faster then speed of sound. Question is wether or not you are able to react to it. Early fighter jets e.g. WWII german fighter jets and after were pretty damn fast, and the fighters could still see things, but couldn't react to the speed any longer.

EDIT: After I actually read your post, neoalpha, I just had to LOL

First Law of Thermodynamics only works under a CLOSED SYSTEM!!!! So don't start bashing me, if you mess up on the first law. The Naruto vers is not a CLOSED System, and never will be. Thus your whole crap can go to infinity if you want.


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## drunk kitsune (Nov 29, 2006)

Sorry, Muk, but apparently you lack physics godliness.  Obviously, you fail at life.  Being a biologist, my knowledge in physics is... less than formidable.  I can discuss it well enough, but if you start throwing equations at me, piss off.  And when you consider there are people on this forum who have yet to hit puberty... keep simplifying it.  Good job.

At any rate... I disagreed with the OP... initially.  Yeah, Hiraishin may give that 0.0000000000093 second edge over speed... but differences like that are called "statistically negligable" .  In other words... it's so small that it's not worth considering.  So, _in close combat,_ I would say the advantage Hiraishin is greater, but not by much, enough that it might not matter.


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## Muk (Nov 29, 2006)

drunk kitsune said:


> *Sorry, Muk, but apparently you lack physics godliness.  Obviously, you fail at life.*
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



There is a limit to sarcasm I can take


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## Mizu Gaeshi (Nov 29, 2006)

they are different. Yondaime doesn't have to physically move b4 attacking with hiraishin. with no physical movement leading up to an attack, he is a whole different animal than a super-fast nin using shunshin (which I would assume is used with varying degrees of effectiveness depending on the skill of the nin). it means there is nothing to see b4 the attack. there is nothing to hear. there is nothing to smell. there is nothing to feel. there is nothing to sense. you're actually, kind of disappearing from existence for the duration of hiraishin. that is, as opposed to simply moving faster than most nin can comprehend with shunshin (which leaves you with the possibility of highly advanced nin or nin with bloodlines still being able to combat it since its effectiveness is based on the skill of the nin).

I will agree that in close-quarters, they can be quite comparable depending on the match-up. in close-quarters, there isn't a lot of purpose to Yondaime's ability. it's unneccesary, and probly a waste of chakra. shunshin is very effective when used by highly skilled nin, as your pictures have proven (tho I think it's actually a low-rank jutsu while hiraishin is s-rank). Itachi uses it incredibly well. presumably as well as Shisui was known to. Gai shocked Sasuke, Naruto, and Sakura. another one not mentioned is during the chuunin exams when Sasuke fights, nnnn, Yoroi? yeah, Yoroi, I'm going with that. after the fight Sasuke almost collapses from having his chakra drained and fighting the curse seal. as he begins falling, Kakashi moves from the spectators area to a completely still standing position behind Sasuke, propping him up with his knee. @ that point, Kakashi was possibly moving faster than any of the young nin could see. same with the jounin stopping Neji from killing Hinata. Gai was moving faster than Sasuke and Naruto (after a period of huge growth) and Sakura (highly observant) could see. Itachi used it @ a level that jounin could not see.

I'll stay out of the argument about whether sharingan could predict hiraishin but I'll speculate. it seems like it would be able to, but it wouldn't matter since Yondaime could use it consecutive times. @ that point, it's possible that hiraishin used consecutively, would appear to a sharingan user as a field of clones that never move an inch, yet the sharingan user would be taking on damage.


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## basketball88 (Nov 29, 2006)

Anyone with the DataBook correct me if Im wrong on this but,

I believe it was mentioned in Hiraishin's entry that it was the only jutsu ever that Sharingan could not follow. 

I remember reading this and wondering if the ability would come into play against Sasuke or Itachi.

Also, I believe that Hiraishin is definitely faster than Shushin. 

I also believe that when Hiraishin is used against highly skilled Nin's, it could be countered, to a point. 
But it is such an powerful equalizing skill, that it would only take .00001 millesecond mistake, for someone to be killed with the technique.

Against any Joe-Blow Nin, it would be instant death, against Kage level, I believe it is an equalizing skill on the level of or above, Mangekyou Sharingan.


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## MS81 (Nov 29, 2006)

okay put it like this Sushin *D-A*rank jutsu depending on the person's ability.

Hiraishin *S*-rank jutsu only ppl that might know it is Kakashi and Jiraiyah but never showed any thing to resemble it.

even if Sasuke uses it the jutsu will only be A-B rank speed and if Naruto uses it the Hiraishin still will be S-rank speed.

So who wins?


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## afro luffy (Nov 29, 2006)

This thread is too long to read, so I don't know if it has already been posted or not, but this topic was already covered in dbz/gt.  Goku vs Cell, Goku used teleportation to fight against Cell and Cell fought evenly using just his speed.  Cell even showed Goku how fast he was, it was like he was teleporting himself.  Also, in GT with SSJ4 Goku vs Super 17.  Super 17 was actually faster than SSJ4 Goku using teleportation.  I don't know if this is a valid argument, just throwing ideas out.


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## B.M.G. (Nov 29, 2006)

bushybrows said:


> This thread is too long to read, so I don't know if it has already been posted or not, but this topic was already covered in dbz/gt.  Goku vs Cell, Goku used teleportation to fight against Cell and Cell fought evenly using just his speed.  Cell even showed Goku how fast he was, it was like he was teleporting himself.  Also, in GT with SSJ4 Goku vs Super 17.  Super 17 was actually faster than SSJ4 Goku using teleportation.  I don't know if this is a valid argument, just throwing ideas out.



More examples like this the better. although this is Naruto


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## Tsukiyomi (Nov 29, 2006)

dregoth said:


> Kuchiyose can be countered/nullified. Sarutobi did it. If he could predict the Edo tensei he'd have a better chance of countering the jutsu as a whole. A Kage level Uchiha with super fast seal speed would have a chance to counter the jutsu...



Edo Tensei is a unique summon.  The summon actually has to complete a physical movement to come into being (the coffin has to rise), with ANY other summon that we've seen the summoned being just materializes.

You can't counter materialization.



dregoth said:


> Funny, yondaime was performing handseals before he killed 50 rock nins.



You don't know what he was doing, his back was to us, for all we know he was preparing other weapons in his hands, or preparing to use a technique in conjunction with Hiraishin.


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## DeepThought (Nov 29, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> Here you have Gai's speed for example.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


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## *uzumaki-naruto* (Nov 29, 2006)

how long has this been going 4 and i thought every agree's that harishin is better than shushin(ooops i mean every except B.M.G)


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## Ize19 (Nov 29, 2006)

The thing is, it all depends what you consider close quarters.  For instance, when Yondaime rescued Kakashi from that jounin, they weren't all _that_ far away.  However, he took the jounin _completely_ off guard, the guy was unable to respond to it, and had the Yondaime wanted to kill him then and there, he could have.  Now, you might say that shunshin would work just as well there, the only problem is, Rin comments that it was an_extremely fast_ shunshin, which is proved wrong by the databook, proving that, even in close quarters, shunshin does not compare.


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## YellowFlashUzumaki (Nov 29, 2006)

bushybrows said:


> This thread is too long to read, so I don't know if it has already been posted or not, but this topic was already covered in dbz/gt.  Goku vs Cell, Goku used teleportation to fight against Cell and Cell fought evenly using just his speed.  Cell even showed Goku how fast he was, it was like he was teleporting himself.  Also, in GT with SSJ4 Goku vs Super 17.  Super 17 was actually faster than SSJ4 Goku using teleportation.  I don't know if this is a valid argument, just throwing ideas out.



dude thats the DBZ universe, which is entirely different than the Naruto universe, which everyone is talking about here. The fact of the matter is Kishi says Hiraishin is instantaneous which, in the definition he is using (our world's), is going from one place to another in no time whatsoever.  Shushin requires movement, as long as you have to propel yourself forward with Shushin, a Elite Jounin/Kage can keep up with it because you as long as you try to go from one place to another through movement of your body (unlike Hiraishin) you have to at least take that first step before attacking, otherwise you would be off-balance. As for your arguements concerning the fact that he has to throw a kunai before he uses Hiraishin.  One can assume that, just by completing/creating a jutsu like Hiraishin, one's speed has to be ridiculous as it is.  So Yondaime's shushin can be assumed to be extremely fast as well, which means he can keep up with most likely any ninja in the Naruto world.  Kishimoto has had Kakashi state that creating one's own jutsu is not only a jutsu builder but an all around builder as well, as Naruto will become stronger by enduring training that would help him perfect the Rasengan.  Now it takes Naruto shorter time than anyone else to perfect a jutsu b/c of his chakra capacity, so Yondaime must have taken many years of enduring rigorous training to perfect such a powerful jutsu as Hiraishin which means his Shushin should be on par with anyone else's, also considering that Hiraishin's pretty much an enhanced Shushin(which already means it should be faster--at any point or distance--than Shushin) someone's Shushin must be high enough to perfect it into Hiraishin (I feel like I'm going in circles).  To add to the kunai throwing, since Yondaime has shown he can put a seal just by touching something, it can also be assumed that he can do this to the ground too.  So by using Shushin to defend himself at first while also placing tags on the floor, Yondaime has essentially just tagged the ENTIRE ground--there would be no escape and he wouldn't have the OMGZFAILZERS of having to throw a kunai while someone attacks him at that very moment.  Now I'm not going to include physics in my argument because I hated the class and don't see myself as knowledgeable enough in that area to dish it out to people.

Finally, I disagree with BMG but I'm not going to bother arguing any further because:
A)What I said and would say has already been covered by the 13 pages of thread.
B)Apparently him and his lackey Degoth don't listen.
C)When 99.999% of the forum is against you on your theory--it's self-explanatory.


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## B.M.G. (Nov 29, 2006)

Ize19 said:


> The thing is, it all depends what you consider close quarters.  For instance, when Yondaime rescued Kakashi from that jounin, they weren't all _that_ far away.



That we dont know



> However, he took the jounin _completely_ off guard, the guy was unable to respond to it, and had the Yondaime wanted to kill him then and there, he could have.



Dude, all his attention was focuses on Kakashi. 



> Now, you might say that shunshin would work just as well there, the only problem is, Rin comments that it was an_extremely fast_ shunshin, which is proved wrong by the databook, proving that, even in close quarters, shunshin does not compare.



The fact that she mentioned shunshin hurts your case, because she is basically comparing them, in fact, she think Hiraishin is Shunshin. In other words, there is no difference at close range.


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## Trias (Nov 29, 2006)

Rasengan *is* un-copiable. Therefore, rest of your theory fails as well.


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## Tsukiyomi (Nov 29, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> That we dont know



We don't know what?  What close quarters is or how far apart they are?  We know how far apart they were and if you can't define close quarters then you have no argument at all.



B.M.G. said:


> Dude, all his attention was focuses on Kakashi.



Yeah, ok, so he was paying no attention at all to the enemy ninjas on the field?

Regardless he was mid attack on Kakashi and Yondaime was fast enough to get in, grab him and get out before that guy could finish swinging his arm.



B.M.G. said:


> The fact that she mentioned shunshin hurts your case, because she is basically comparing them, in fact, she think Hiraishin is Shunshin. In other words, there is no difference at close range.



No it doesn't hurt our case.  She was in AWE that a shunshin could be so fast, indicating that it shouldn't be able to move that fast (which it can't).  She called it Shunshin because she didn't know about Hiraishin, Yondaime kept it a secret.


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## DeepThought (Nov 29, 2006)

> No it doesn't hurt our case. She was in AWE that a shunshin could be so fast, indicating that it shouldn't be able to move that fast (which it can't). She called it Shunshin because she didn't know about Hiraishin, Yondaime kept it a secret.



Mega-Ultra-Win!


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## QuoNina (Nov 29, 2006)

Teleportation can be a killer. But it requires a bit planning.

*o*

So did he adjust his position after he was teleported or he modify it pre-teleportation? 

If he adjusted his position after he was teleported, Yondy would land on the enemy's left foot first according to the picture. :S

Or he could control his position relative to the tag before the transportation, so he didn't have to land right on the tag ...

Or once he applied that jutsu-shiki in "touched area", the whole object (the whole body) was tagged so it's easier to move to his desired destination...

Hm... I'll go ask someone who can do teleportation.


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## B.M.G. (Nov 29, 2006)

Tsukiyomi said:


> We don't know what?  What close quarters is or how far apart they are?  We know how far apart they were and if you can't define close quarters then you have no argument at all.



I mentioned that we didn't get to see the clear picture of the whole context. We only see different panels!

Yes, they must have been far but then againKakahsi started running like crazy through the whole battlefield, but then again, we don't know how far they really were. 



> Yeah, ok, so he was paying no attention at all to the enemy ninjas on the field?



WTF?

You have some crazy kid that is headed right toward you at crazy speed, with a chidori making a hell of a sound, and you are going tell me, he should have payed attention to the enemy in the battlefield, and not the other threat in front of him? Who do you think this guy is? Do you think he has the Byakugan too? 




> Regardless he was mid attack on Kakashi and Yondaime was fast enough to get in, grab him and get out before that guy could finish swinging his arm.



yes, with hiraishin.




> No it doesn't hurt our case.  She was in AWE that a shunshin could be so fast, indicating that it shouldn't be able to move that fast (which it can't).  She called it Shunshin because she didn't know about Hiraishin, Yondaime kept it a secret.




Shushin's speed depend on the user's speed, if it didn't, You wouldn't have a Uchiha nicknamed, Shushin no Shisui.


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## Draffut (Nov 29, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> Shushin's speed depend on the user's speed, if it didn't, You wouldn't have a Uchiha nicknamed, Shushin no Shisui.



Shushin's speed is also dependsant on how much Chakra you use for it.  AS stated, it is very Chakra intensive, which iswhy most only use it as an escape mechanism.  Hirashin doesn't seam to require much energy at all (as seen with Yondaime's 50 man fight)

Just anouther reason it is better, at both close and long range.


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## neoalpha (Nov 29, 2006)

1.
Muk, if you're a Comp Sci major and a Physics minor, you must've failed all your physics classes. I sincerely hope that you aren't another comp sci major who programs in java and vb. The universe can be assumed to be a closed system. I hope you're thinking right now "yeah, well black holes suck up shit." My response to that is this: black holes have a certain life span. They radiate energy. This has been proven. I'm sure Hawking and Penrose are MUCH more credible source than you are. I also will not go any further into the lifespan of a black hole because the physics involved is very nasty.

2.
I am not a physics major. I study medicine, however... one of the requirements is to study physics. I however enjoyed it and decided to study more than what was needed.

3.
On the eye/processing information:
Remember, the fasted neural connection is 120m/s. This is of course a fraction of the speed of light.

4.
Someone asked why time "stops" at light speed, here's why:
T' = T sqrt[1 - (v/c)^2]
Again, this is another over-simplification. There's no need to put tensors into the picture. I'm sure Muk would shit his pants if he saw one as well .


Anymore questions?


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## drunk kitsune (Nov 29, 2006)

*Spoiler*: _If rants piss you off, skip this please._ 



OH MY GOD IT'S PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE ZOMG GAMABUNTA WOULD BE CRUSHED UNDER HIS OWN WEIGHT GAAAAAAHHHHHH OMG WHEN I TYPE IN CAPITAL LETTERS IT MEANS I'M RIGHT!!!ONE!

hehe.  sorry. as someone with plenty of medical experience, I have to say................. don't be arrogant -- and I'm sorry if you're not, if that's the case, try not to come off as so.  All it does is reinforce the stereotype, and considering it's because of Hiraishin... relax.  And that equation made _me _shit my pants.  I hate physics.




A lot of the posts are simply that Hiraishin>shushin, period.  The OP states that he thinks there is no difference between the two ----- in close combat.  Yes, Hiraishin is >>>>> shushin.  Yes, it's S rank.  But consider this-- say you're fast enough to cover 100 meters in 1 second... and you can cover 1000 in 10 seconds.  Traveling those 100 meters instantly only gives you an advantage of 1 second.  And that's 100 meters, which is definately not close combat.

The way I would see Hiraishin as being an advantage is if you teleport behind the person you're in close combat with.  The problem with this is that we know nothing of what happens when Yondi actually teleports.  Was he instantly holding the kunai to the rock nin's throat when he teleported?  Or did he have to move his arm, possibly rotate himself to face him?  If you teleport behind someone in close combat, if you're automatically facing them, they're d - e - d dead.  But if your back is to them, and their back is to you, then only pure speed, and placement, will dictate what happens.

Consider how in real life, in close combat, speed isn't the end-all; you can be fast, but if your footwork sucks, you don't have a chance.  Yes, Hiraishin is great.  Over a battlefield such as during Kakashi Gaiden, it's ridiculous.  But in pure close combat, at best I think it can just catch someone off guard.  Unless, of course, you can put a tag on their back, and poof, you instantly have a knife to their throat and you're behind them.

... did that make sense?

edit : basically, Hiraishin moves Yondi's whole body.  He doesn't stab you using it; he stabs you by moving his arm.  Every movement someone like, say, Gai, makes, is speed.  Not every movement Yondi makes is Hiraishin.

All in all, I say, the difference, _in close combat_, isn't much, if any.  Hiraishin is still better, of course.

@ draffut -- very good point, but it has to use a decent amount of chakra -- it is a summoning technique, after all.


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## DeepThought (Nov 29, 2006)

Sure it made sense.  But Hirashin > Shushin 4 ever.

Dur dur duuuuuur... drool.


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## Shishi-O (Nov 29, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> once again, there is no difference between the two a close range, you just saw what shushin does at close range.


hey guy this is major rain on your parade, but 

1) that rock nin was a jounin

2) he was watching yondaime, when he was killed, by effin shunshin.

3) there was no tag placed on the rock jounin's foot, it was shun shin both times. the 4th made no seals to activate hiraishin, like he did against the 50 rock nin.

4) that was shunshin when he rescued kakashi( yeah, carrying another person) and his heavy backpack.

5) as fast as gai is, i'm sure he wouldn't put his speed against the yellow flash, unless it was training.

6)whenever hiraishin was "shown"( or it's usage was alluded to), we never saw anything. we only heard that the enemies were wiped out. why would kishi break that set-up? and show hiraishin? the answer, he only showed shunshin. all the speed bursts that we saw, was shunshin.

7) this is what hiraishin looks like

 Say Hello 

Say Hello

Say Hello

as you can see they all ( victims) are not moving at all, like they are frozen in time, no amount of speed is going to beat a space time jutsu that stops time.

no worries mate, s'all goodness 

@bmg- his nickname( that uchiha) was shisui of the mirage( not shunshin) please stop makin' stuff up.


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## Tsukiyomi (Nov 29, 2006)

B.M.G. said:


> I mentioned that we didn't get to see the clear picture of the whole context. We only see different panels!
> 
> Yes, they must have been far but then againKakahsi started running like crazy through the whole battlefield, but then again, we don't know how far they really were.



So once again, all your arguments about distance are pointless.  You don't know how far they were, so you can't make any observations on close range use of Hiraishin.



B.M.G. said:


> WTF?
> 
> You have some crazy kid that is headed right toward you at crazy speed, with a chidori making a hell of a sound, and you are going tell me, he should have payed attention to the enemy in the battlefield, and not the other threat in front of him? Who do you think this guy is? Do you think he has the Byakugan too?



You do realize you can pay attention to more than one thing at a time right?  Or do you think that ninjas lose focus of all their surrounding environment when some stupid kid starts running at them blindly.

He obviously wasn't in too much of a panic as he was able to get around the chidori with little trouble.

He would have been well aware of all the enemy ninjas on the battlefield.



B.M.G. said:


> yes, with hiraishin.



Your point being?



B.M.G. said:


> Shushin's speed depend on the user's speed, if it didn't, You wouldn't have a Uchiha nicknamed, Shushin no Shisui.



Ok, and?

She was still in complete awe of how fast he was able to get around.  No speed can compare to instantaneous movement.


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## B.M.G. (Nov 29, 2006)

Tsukiyomi said:


> So once again, all your arguments about distance are pointless.  You don't know how far they were, so you can't make any observations on close range use of Hiraishin.



I don't need to, we know how Hiraishin world and what shunshin does at close range. There is almost no difference at all.



> You do realize you can pay attention to more than one thing at a time right?  Or do you think that ninjas lose focus of all their surrounding environment when some stupid kid starts running at them blindly.



Sorry, but not all ninjas are superb you know. He was a regular joe.




> He obviously wasn't in too much of a panic as he was able to get around the chidori with little trouble. He would have been well aware of all the enemy ninjas on the battlefield.



Kakashi has destroyed 19 of his kage bushins, so you bet he was worry. You can also see him screaming like hell at Kakashi so you know that he has lost his coolness aka, awareness of his enemies on the battlefield. Meaning, he is not discipline shinobi like adult Kakashi among other. 






> Your point being?



There wasnt one, just specifying.




> Ok, and?
> 
> She was still in complete awe of how fast he was able to get around.  No speed can compare to instantaneous movement.



The same thing would happen if she saw either Shisui's, Itachi's, Kakashi's, Gai's shunshin. "Fulano's shushin is so fast!


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## The Times (Nov 29, 2006)

Shishi-O said:


> hey guy this is major rain on your parade, but
> 
> 1) that rock nin was a jounin
> 
> ...



Actually, it was Hiraishin that the 4th used to save kakashi, by using the Kunai he gave Kakashi for his birthday, and later the tag that he placed on the Rock Nin's foot, which you can actually see in the later pages. It was just an error on Kishi's part to call it "Shunshin" in that chapter, which he corrected in the Databooks, and maybe the Volume release.

The difference between being able to move 10 centimeters instantly, and being able to move 10 centimeters in 0.001 of a second isn't much. If a person was watching a fight were people were moving that fast, then it's look like they were bothing moving at the same speed. The 4th still has a reaction time, which means that he can't teleport behind you and kill you instantly, as there is still time taken for his arm to move. Although, if he did get behind someone who was unsuspecting, and not in combat mode or any sort, or not paticulary fast, then he'd be able to kill that person easily. On a massive battlefield, Hiraishin would be extremely useful. In a one on one fight, it's still useful, but it's not the end all.


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## Shidoshi (Nov 29, 2006)

chakra-burned said:


> Too bad it murders your stamina and it's only a one way trip. Now honestly, barring possible how _plausible_ is it?


It shouldn't even be *possible* for an eye to distort the barrier between physical dimensions, but not only is it possible in _Naruto_, and *plausible*, but it's been done.

The plausibility of Sasuke having a Mangekyou jutsu (for the purposes of this sentence, let's assume he does) that can perform a similar kuchiyose "movement" like Hiraishin isn't all that low, to be honest.  Especially considering Kakashi's MS jutsu does half of what Hiraishin does to begin with.  It murdered Kakashi's stamina, true, but for any Uchiha, the chakra cost wouldn't be *as* bad.

And, it's only a one-way trip the way _Kakashi_ uses it.


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## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (Nov 29, 2006)

For a supreme technique, hiraishin is incredibly boring.


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## MS81 (Nov 29, 2006)

yeah I think a fight with the 4th VS. Kakashi or Itachi would settle this.


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## Superb Herb (Nov 29, 2006)

mangekyousharigan81 said:


> yeah I think a fight with the 4th VS. Kakashi or Itachi would settle this.



Why? So he could just slaughter them. Everyone knows how Hirashin works nothing to settle.


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## MS81 (Nov 29, 2006)

KyuubiYondime said:


> Why? So he could just slaughter them. Everyone knows how Hirashin works nothing to settle.



I know it's to prove that B.M.G. is wrong about Hiraishin. 

but then we could be wrong as well.


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## chakra-burned (Nov 29, 2006)

Shidoshi said:


> It shouldn't even be *possible* for an eye to distort the barrier between physical dimensions, but not only is it possible in _Naruto_, and *plausible*, but it's been done.
> 
> The plausibility of Sasuke having a Mangekyou jutsu (for the purposes of this sentence, let's assume he does) that can perform a similar kuchiyose "movement" like Hiraishin isn't all that low, to be honest.  Especially considering Kakashi's MS jutsu does half of what Hiraishin does to begin with.  It murdered Kakashi's stamina, true, but for any Uchiha, the chakra cost wouldn't be *as* bad.
> 
> And, it's only a one-way trip the way _Kakashi_ uses it.


When reality doesn't define the limits, conjecture from the manga does. Conjecture from the manga shows that mangekyou itself is a very taxing jutsu. It also shows that using the sharingan to distort physical dimensions takes a lot of time and chakra, and is very taxing. This is from what we know. Of course we won't know how Sasuke will be able to handle that particular jutsu, but that doesn't warrant a "the chance isn't that low". It warrants a "premise unknown". No one can make a claim to the probability of Sasuke accomplishing such an ability except for Kishimoto. However, we can probably assume that any jutsu that the mangekyou performs will be taxing, as we see a caution for stamina in both Kakashi and Itachi, the latter who is still stronger than Sasuke by a considerable margin. That would imply that even if Sasuke could distort space-time in the two ways necessary without straining and taking time, the chakra cost would still hamper its effectiveness and feasibility.


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## Shishi-O (Nov 29, 2006)

Kenechi said:


> Actually, it was Hiraishin that the 4th used to save kakashi, by using the Kunai he gave Kakashi for his birthday, and later the tag that he placed on the Rock Nin's foot, which you can actually see in the later pages. It was just an error on Kishi's part to call it "Shunshin" in that chapter, which he corrected in the Databooks, and maybe the Volume release.
> 
> The difference between being able to move 10 centimeters instantly, and being able to move 10 centimeters in 0.001 of a second isn't much. If a person was watching a fight were people were moving that fast, then it's look like they were bothing moving at the same speed. The 4th still has a reaction time, which means that he can't teleport behind you and kill you instantly, as there is still time taken for his arm to move. Although, if he did get behind someone who was unsuspecting, and not in combat mode or any sort, or not paticulary fast, then he'd be able to kill that person easily. On a massive battlefield, Hiraishin would be extremely useful. In a one on one fight, it's still useful, but it's not the end all.


i think you are confused about when he saved kakashi, i meant when they first saw action, ie. obito is still alive. and rin states" sensei's shunshin! so fast!"

and as stated and shown, hiraishin is a space time jutsu.

no amount of speed is going to save you when you are killed while time is frozen, and yondaime can dance around you like a ballerina.

also, it is a summopning of himself, so the sharingan can't copy jack.


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## Surreal (Nov 29, 2006)

Comedy gold.

Arguing how laws of physics apply in a fictional world where giant frogs can talk, Jesus has nothing on you since you can walk on water, there is a guy that can regenerate by spitting himself out, you can grow trees by yelling HIDDEN TECHNIQUE; BIRTH OF TREES, another dude that looks like a shark can create a fucking ocean in a place with no water and people can shoot lightning from their hand and move someone to another dimension by "giving them the eye".

Let me repeat it: comedy gold.


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## ecksiled (Nov 29, 2006)

Just to clarify real quick.. when Yondaime saves Kakashi its shunshin.  When he kills the rock ninja its Hirashin.  This can be determined by the fact that when he ends up behind the rock ninja the tag on his  foot appears (to me) to disolve (the shape seems to change from the first panel to the second getting a more smoke like appearance).  Its a one time user per tag jutsu based on this.  If he had used Hirashin to save Kakashi the tag would have dissolved and he wouldn't have been able to save him later.

Hirashin also doesn't necessarily require seals as someone else stated.  When Yondaime was at the battlefield versus the 50 rock ninjas he was about to go kill 50 people, obviously he's going to prepare some jutsu before he attacks.  Thus, there is no proof that Hirashin requires hand seals as of right now, and second even if it does in the original use against the rock ninja if you look at the panels they never show his torso hands before he disappears.

We don't know the mechanics of Hirashin.  When he uses it can he see where he's teleporting too before he chooses to wind up there?  Can he position himself however he wants relative to the tag (say within 5 meters)?  Does it freeze time or is he just tossed out around the tag?

We can't really know and its fun to speculate but some people seem like they're getting way too hot headed about this.


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## superbatman86 (Nov 29, 2006)

Shushin is faster in close combat because Hiraishin doesn't just involve the technique but the set up as well.And no one in the manga has thrown a kunai as fast as people like Itachi and Gai can move.


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## So_Smart_s0_Dumb (Nov 29, 2006)

The answer is obvious, but I gotta give some props to the maker of this thread.

You are a clever one.


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## Shinnou Genkaku (Nov 30, 2006)

this is a long ass debate


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## <insertnamehere> (Nov 30, 2006)

the BIG HUGE advantage in having Hiraishin over Shunshin is that you choose when you want to be close or far.  the person with Hiraishin can easily teleport away from battle and look in, have a good perception of the battlefield and make an assessment of the best move, then teleport back into battle.  you said in close range Hiraishin and Shunshin are pretty much the same?  well let's say they start close range.. in an instant, the battle can become long range and there you get the instantaneous advantage of Hiraishin.  point being... you lose.

Hiraishin is always better than Shunshin.


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## Rikudou (Nov 30, 2006)

neoalpha said:


> Someone asked why time "stops" at light speed, here's why:
> T' = T sqrt[1 - (v/c)^2]
> Again, this is another over-simplification. There's no need to put tensors into the picture. I'm sure Muk would shit his pants if he saw one as well .



This is 'boring physics mumbo jumbo'. I don't want none of that.
Can't you explain WHY time stops at the speed of light instead of bombarding me with formula's?
You can explain why matter is energy without bringing E=mc^2 too, you know...


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## Draffut (Nov 30, 2006)

hokagenaruto3 said:


> This is 'boring physics mumbo jumbo'. I don't want none of that.
> Can't you explain WHY time stops at the speed of light instead of bombarding me with formula's?
> You can explain why matter is energy without bringing E=mc^2 too, you know...



That forumula just says that pretty much, if you move at half the speed of light, time only moves at half speed.  I was hoping for some type of actual "explaination" also, since I already knew that.

And since it is just the "theory of relativity" it isn't really proven fact yet anyhow.


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## Rikudou (Nov 30, 2006)

Draffut said:


> That forumula just says that pretty much, if you move at half the speed of light, time only moves at half speed.  I was hoping for some type of actual "explaination" also, since I already knew that.
> 
> And since it is just the "theory of relativity" it isn't really proven fact yet anyhow.



If me and my brother were to run as fast as each other, would time be standing still? Can time really be bended?
If you just increase the speed, why would it change? Shouldn't things stay relative to each other and stay the same?
Why is the speed of light such a significant barrier?
Damn, all these questions and no answers...


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## Draffut (Nov 30, 2006)

hokagenaruto3 said:


> If me and my brother were to run as fast as each other, would time be standing still? Can time really be bended?
> If you just increase the speed, why would it change? Shouldn't things stay relative to each other and stay the same?
> Why is the speed of light such a significant barrier?
> Damn, all these questions and no answers...



It only compares to the speed of light.  As said, the speed of light is 1,079,252,848.8 km/h.  So if you and your friend raced. and you ran 2 km/h faster then your friend, time would technically be going slower for you then him.  But the diffrence is so insignificant that it isn't really worth mentioning.  To igure it out, you would ned to put those numbers nad other items into the equation he put up.

As to why light is the measurement, you would have to consult Neo.  I could give you why I think it is, but I havn't touched this stuff in 4 years and would probobly be half wrong.


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## FrostXian (Nov 30, 2006)

hokagenaruto3 said:


> This is 'boring physics mumbo jumbo'. I don't want none of that.
> Can't you explain WHY time stops at the speed of light instead of bombarding me with formula's?
> You can explain why matter is energy without bringing E=mc^2 too, you know...



Foolish member, you lack intelligence and/or education.


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## Shinnou Genkaku (Nov 30, 2006)

^ thats just mnea, every member doesnt have an iq and some prolly have ADHD and cant read long explanations. If they were all as smart as you then you would no  longer be smart would you?


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## DeepThought (Nov 30, 2006)

Technically, Transportation (mainly the "magical" kind) is faster than the speed of light.  Hate to use it as a reference: DBZ.  Goku transported across the universe instantly.  Not at warp 9 not at the speed of light... instantly.  These arguments are frivilous and superfluous.

Chakra = Magic
Chi = Magic
Magical Girl Pretty Sammy = Oh you better believe that's magic.

"But Deepthought, Chakra follows it's own scientific law."
First off, don't start a sentence with "but" at the beginning.  It's not proper.  Second.  Kishi is making this stuff up as he goes.  He JUST got around to explaining how elemental chakra works.  I'm not saying it isn't awesome, just not as intricate as you all want it to be.  He is Einstein, Darwin, and God of the Narutoverse.  If he says Hirashin is S and Shushin is D, you better believe it as gospel.


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## MS81 (Nov 30, 2006)

DeepThought said:


> Technically, Transportation (mainly the "magical" kind) is faster than the speed of light.  Hate to use it as a reference: DBZ.  Goku transported across the universe instantly.  Not at warp 9 not at the speed of light... instantly.  These arguments are frivilous and superfluous.
> 
> Chakra = Magic
> Chi = Magic
> ...


Thank you Deepthought I would rep you but I gave out too many.

anyway Deepthought do you think a Sushin can be upgraded?

say if Yondaime did Sushin and Shikamaru did it also who's Sushin would be superior if they are both D-ranked Jutsu's?


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## DeepThought (Nov 30, 2006)

I say there is probably validity to the experience of the user.
Just like with most jutsu.
(I'm not Kishi. I don't know)


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## ecksiled (Nov 30, 2006)

I'd say its experience and chakra.  The more chakra you put in the faster you go, so theoretically Naruto should be blazing fast since he has more chakra to waste than most people.

However, when Sasuke moved post time skip and when Gai materialized behind Team 7 before the Chuunin exams, was that Shunshin or their own natural speed?  I'm assuming its Shunshin but then the whole movement thing kind of confuses me.  When they go super fast is that just their muscles and training or is it a jutsu, and if its a jutsu then shouldn't equal chakra mean equal speed?


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## rorykage (Nov 30, 2006)

> Thank you Deepthought I would rep you but I gave out too many.



then i will give him rep for you! DeepThought's post said it all.


edit: apparently i already did for a different post, and i must wait. lame.


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## Muk (Nov 30, 2006)

Is this thread still not dead? I stab it some more with my vorpal pixy lance. *staby staby*

Yay real world physics ftw in fantasy setting with magic. Ohh yeah Shushin pwns Hirashin. Nuf said


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## Zer0_UchiHa (Dec 1, 2006)

I want to throw one little thing ive been thinking about in terms of the hiraishin. We all know its instant travel right, like from point A to point B, however that doesnt equate to instant kill necessarily. Think abuot this, yondaime teleported behing that rock nin, but he still had to actually move his hand to be able to cut the guys throat! If he has to move his hand at all, even if that movement takes as little as .001 of a second, then hiraishin isnt insta-kill! Think about this, if yondaime teleports behind someone, they could have time to react and avoid, provided they are faster than yondaime in "normal" speed. What i mean by normal speed would be say mohammed ali is faster than george foreman so that when foreman goes to punch ali, ali is able to block/dodge the punch. 

Lets say gai can move in "normal" speed at .0000001 seconds, and yondaime can move at .0001 seconds. Technically gai is faster and could avoid the insta-kill. Not saying he would be able to keep it up for long, eventually gai wouldnt be able to aviod all teleportations and stabbing atempts by yondaime, but if indeed yondy has to "move" his arm in the slightest bit when he comes out of his hiraishin teleportation, then the move doesnt not gaurantee and instant kill.

THink of trigun if u will, vash is fighting dominique. She can make it seem like time is frozen and make it look as though she is teleporting, however when she shoots her gun to kill vash, in the time it takes the bullet to come out of the barrel and strike vash, somehow vash is still able to move in time! Its essentially the same deal here with hiraishin i believe. Until kishi explains hiraishin further, i tend to think that its not insta-kill.


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## Shidoshi (Dec 1, 2006)

chakra-burned said:


> When reality doesn't define the limits, conjecture from the manga does. Conjecture from the manga shows that mangekyou itself is a very taxing jutsu. It also shows that using the sharingan to distort physical dimensions takes a lot of time and chakra, and is very taxing. This is from what we know. Of course we won't know how Sasuke will be able to handle that particular jutsu, but that doesn't warrant a "the chance isn't that low". It warrants a "premise unknown". No one can make a claim to the probability of Sasuke accomplishing such an ability except for Kishimoto. However, we can probably assume that any jutsu that the mangekyou performs will be taxing, as we see a caution for stamina in both Kakashi and Itachi, the latter who is still stronger than Sasuke by a considerable margin. That would imply that even if Sasuke could distort space-time in the two ways necessary without straining and taking time, the chakra cost would still hamper its effectiveness and feasibility.


I didn't say it wouldn't be taxing, I said it wouldn't be *as* taxing to an Uchiha as it would be to Kakashi, and you asked me about the plausibility of Sasuke having an eye jutsu similar to Hiraishin, not the plausibility of it being as effectively practical as Hiraishin.  It not implausible, considering Kakashi already has one that does half of what Hiraishin does.

If Kakashi hadn't shown his own MS space-time-warp-sendyoutohell-no-jutsu, I wouldn't have said it were plausible at all.  This is what you'd call "conjecture from the manga defining the limits".


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## DeepThought (Dec 1, 2006)

> THink of trigun if u will, vash is fighting dominique



WOW... no... just no... That was technically a hypnotism technique.  She made it seem like time had stopped by "freezing" Vash's mental clock.  She moved at a normal speed the entire time.

In Narutoverse, that translates to a genjutsu technique.  Very bad choice of comparison.
THe thread that wouldn't die
STAB!

​


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## wiggely (Dec 1, 2006)

> this is a long ass debate


why is this thread still in existance, and how is it a debate, even the thread starter got banned for his stubborness.



> THe thread that wouldn't die
> STAB!


summons itachi, kakashi, and sasuke to perform all three ms techniques known (genjutsu, black fire, and dimensional) in combination on this thread.


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## DeepThought (Dec 1, 2006)

He was banned? Awesome!
Stab
​


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## Muk (Dec 2, 2006)

Hey Deep can I use that stab pic too?


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## Tsukiyomi (Dec 2, 2006)

Wow, I forgot about this thread.

This is done.


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