# Elaine Belloc Vs. The Beyonder



## Warlordgab (Jun 28, 2016)

DC Vs. Marvel



*VS*



*Location:* Space
*Mindset:* IC
*Scenarios:*

1) Elaine Vs. Pre-retcon Beyonder
2) Elaine Vs. Post-retcon Beyonder

Who wins?


----------



## Huey Freeman (Jun 29, 2016)

Elaine is basically the presence IIRC


----------



## RavenSupreme (Jun 29, 2016)

vertigo doesnt fuck around


----------



## Lucifer Morningstar (Jul 2, 2016)

Elaine Belloc would win under both scenarios, 2nd would be pointless.

She inherited the Demiurgic power through her father and with Lucifer's guidance, she molded and created her own universe, and that was a vastly weaker and earlier version. I am unsure post-retcon Beyonder would even beat that version of her, which was a far earlier version of her, extremely inexperienced and powerless compared to what she became at the end.

After the Presence decided to abandon his post, one of his descendants had to step in; otherwise creation itself would have been destroyed. Michael was dead; Lucifer was unwilling to become what he always tried to oppose, and he manipulated things so that Elaine would get the entirety of the power of the Presence. There really aren't many on-panel feats, but there is clear confirmation that she assumed the role of the Presence and very much _is_ the Presence by the end of the Lucifer series, whom she pretty much has the full power of, along with omniscience (which Beyonder lacks), and omnipresence.

Anyway, especially in character, I don't see Beyonder winning here against Lucifer, let alone the girl.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 2, 2016)

I considered PR Beyonder and The Presence as equivalent powers. Given how none of them is supreme but they are still beyond nearly anything else.


----------



## Fang (Jul 2, 2016)

Lucifer Morningstar said:


> Elaine Belloc would win under both scenarios, 2nd would be pointless.



She's not winning the first match.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 2, 2016)

Yeah, PR Beyonder is pretty much equivalent to the original Presence, I dont see a noob one defeating him.


----------



## mali (Jul 2, 2016)

IIRC the Presence was similar in power to LT so I don't see how pre-retcon Beyonder would lose to Elaine. She wins against post-retcon though.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 2, 2016)

Mali said:


> IIRC the Presence was similar in power to LT so I don't see how pre-retcon Beyonder would lose to Elaine. She wins against post-retcon though.



What? No, the Presence is WAY beyond the LT.


----------



## mali (Jul 2, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> What? No, the Presence is WAY beyond the LT.


Based on what?


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 2, 2016)

Mali said:


> Based on what?



Dude he is way beyond guys like Michael and Luci. He casually moved and dwarfed an omniverse.


----------



## mali (Jul 2, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> Dude he is way beyond guys like Michael and Luci. He casually moved and dwarfed an omniverse.



Being far above universal+ characters doesn't really say much and IIRC both Michael and Lucifer together equal the Presence (power and will). When did it do that?


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 2, 2016)

Mali said:


> Being far above universal+ characters doesn't really say much and IIRC both Michael and Lucifer together equal the Presence (power and will). When did it do that?



When he gave his post to Elaine who could also casually move around said omniverse after The Presence gave him his post.


----------



## Fang (Jul 2, 2016)

What omniverse exists in DC?


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 2, 2016)

Fang said:


> What omniverse exists in DC?



Its the enirety of creation in DC, come on Fang, you know quite well The Presence has been for years considered way above the LT.

And now people say he is just LT level?

Just check the OBD wiki.


----------



## Fang (Jul 2, 2016)

There's no omniverse in DC.


----------



## mali (Jul 2, 2016)

If "creation" is an omniverse then what Michael and Lucifer made is also a omniverse.


----------



## Fang (Jul 2, 2016)

Its all of creation sure, a megaverse or whatever, but that term omniverse is pretty exclusive to Marvel.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 2, 2016)

Even if its not an omniverse. He is still stronger than LT.


----------



## mali (Jul 2, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> Even if its not an omniverse. He is still stronger than LT.



While that might be true, by how much? Because we know how easily pre-retcon beyonder can dispatch the LT.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 2, 2016)

I am not well versed in comics, so a more knowledgeable guy might give better evidence.

But for example, LT is 16-dimensional while The Presence is stated to be infinite dimensional (or countless at least).


----------



## mali (Jul 2, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> But for example, LT is 16-dimensional while The Presence is stated to be infinite dimensional (or countless at least).



Not sure what this even means.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 2, 2016)

Well then I hope Mike or a comic expert post here more evidence. My knowledgement on DC is mainly from wikis and battle forums.

I just want to know what the fuck happened for The Presence to be considered just LT level. Because it has always been regarded as way beyond that level.


----------



## mali (Jul 3, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> Well then I hope Mike or a comic expert post here more evidence. My knowledgement on DC is mainly from wikis and battle forums.
> 
> I just want to know what the fuck happened for The Presence to be considered just LT level. Because it has always been regarded as way beyond that level.



Nothing happened to the Presence. The only reason I mentioned LT was to give the minimum baseline for the Presence's power (as far as I see it at least). However that doesn't mean we can arbitrarily guess where it fits in the gulf that is LT level to omnipotent (unlike pre-retcon beyonder). DC characters (when their this powerful) aren't so clear cut in terms of the scope of their powers, which can't be said for Marvel counterparts.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 3, 2016)

Well there is also the fact that Carnivore with just half of The Presence's power was regarded as completely invincible in all DC and could only be beaten by using the other half against him, which he allowed to be used because he really didnt wanted to win.

There is also the 2 titan brothers just by sitting on The Presence's vacant throne were enough to shit on absolutely everything else including Mike and Luci (though it is implied that they would had eventually attained the full power of The Presence if they retained the throne long enough)

There is also Cronos with the godwave, who shitstomped pantheon after pantheon, was beating angels like fodders (dont remember if Luci and Mike participated on the brawl) and in the end was nothing to The Presence. In fact the godwave was created by The Source, an aspect of The Presence.

Also Synnar, a guy that was pretty much Luci and Mike combined, was defeated by The Presence.


----------



## God (Jul 3, 2016)

The presence is the dc equivalent of TOAA/Above All Others. He would knock the LT senseless.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## mali (Jul 3, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> Well there is also the fact that Carnivore with just half of The Presence's power was regarded as completely invincible in all DC and could only be beaten by using the other half against him, which he allowed to be used because he really didnt wanted to win.
> 
> There is also the 2 titan brothers just by sitting on The Presence's vacant throne were enough to shit on absolutely everything else including Mike and Luci (though it is implied that they would had eventually attained the full power of The Presence if they retained the throne long enough)
> 
> ...



None of this really matters considering this is all below the scope of LT.



Cubey said:


> The presence is the dc equivalent of TOAA/Above All Others. He would knock the LT senseless.



The Presence is not omnipotent. It's been shown again and again. The very fact that the Great Evil Beast could stalemate the Presence shows this.


----------



## God (Jul 3, 2016)

Mali said:


> The Presence is not omnipotent. It's been shown again and again. The very fact that the Great Evil Beast could stalemate the Presence shows this.



By that logic, neither are TOAA or Beyonder. TOAA couldn't fix the flaw in the universe without thanos' help. Beyonder stalemated molecule man.


----------



## mali (Jul 3, 2016)

Cubey said:


> By that logic, neither are TOAA or Beyonder. TOAA couldn't fix the flaw in the universe without thanos' help. Beyonder stalemated molecule man.



Beyonder isn't omnipotent. TOAA being omnipotent is undisputed simply because it represents the writers. Also Lucifer and Michael equal the Presence. Hell, Synnar shouldn't have been able to do anything other than what he was made to do if the Presence was omnipotent.


----------



## God (Jul 3, 2016)

Mali said:


> Beyonder isn't omnipotent. TOAA being omnipotent is undisputed simply because it represents the writers. Also Lucifer and Michael equal the Presence. Hell, Synnar shouldn't have been able to do anything other than what he was made to do if the Presence was omnipotent.



TOAA is not omnipotent if he needed Thanos to do something he couldn't in Marvel: The End.

Secondly, Lucifer and Michael do not equal the Presence. There are more aspects to the Presence than the will and power, and only Elaine has arguably gained the totality of the Presence's sovereignty.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Jul 3, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> Yeah, PR Beyonder is pretty much equivalent to the original Presence, I dont see a noob one defeating him.





Orochibuto said:


> What? No, the Presence is WAY beyond the LT.





Mali said:


> Based on what?





Mali said:


> Being far above universal+ characters doesn't really say much and IIRC both Michael and Lucifer together equal the Presence (power and will). When did it do that?





Orochibuto said:


> When he gave his post to Elaine who could also casually move around said omniverse after The Presence gave him his post.





Fang said:


> What omniverse exists in DC?





Orochibuto said:


> Its the enirety of creation in DC, come on Fang, you know quite well The Presence has been for years considered way above the LT.
> 
> And now people say he is just LT level?
> 
> Just check the OBD wiki.





Fang said:


> There's no omniverse in DC.





Mali said:


> If "creation" is an omniverse then what Michael and Lucifer made is also a omniverse.





Fang said:


> Its all of creation sure, a megaverse or whatever, but that term omniverse is pretty exclusive to Marvel.





Orochibuto said:


> Even if its not an omniverse. He is still stronger than LT.



Seeing the above haven't had a clue, some points
-Pre-retcon beyonder was an idiot and consistently so someone like Lucifer would make quick work in manipulating him.
- Marvel Omniverse = DC multiverse fancy words be fooling you
- it is confirm the Presence created creation ( DC multiverse )which makes that = TOAA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pre retcon beyonder >>>>>>LT unless any of you have evidence the later two created Marvel Omniverse and without them all of creation would crumble. Yeah I think so

Elaine inherited the Presence powers when he abandon his post


----------



## Huey Freeman (Jul 3, 2016)

Mali said:


> None of this really matters considering this is all below the scope of LT.
> 
> 
> 
> The Presence is not omnipotent. It's been shown again and again. The very fact that the Great Evil Beast could stalemate the Presence shows this.


Are you referring to the over monitor? You do know that is the writers that exist outside DC multiverse.
Secondly the GEB didn't exactly stalemate the presence and is pointless since he absorbed it anyway.


----------



## Fang (Jul 3, 2016)

TMK posts always make me laugh.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Xcano (Jul 3, 2016)

LT is comprised of the entirety of the Marvel Cosmology. The term "omniverse" has been retconned to only include the Marvel franchise as shown by people exiting the omniverse and extra-omniversal threats (the Beyonders).

The Marvel Cosmology has an aleph infinite number of universes. The DC Cosmology has an infinite amount of universes spawned every infinitesimal second. These are pretty much the same thing to the best of my knowledge.

So you could potentially argue LT = the Presence, although I would say LT < Presence because the Presence can manipulate things on that scale casually.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 3, 2016)

For those who say The Presence is TOAA equivalent, that is incorrect.

The Presence is the antepenultimate thing in DC, with the power of beliefs being the penultimate and the writers being the ultimate.


----------



## Solar (Jul 3, 2016)

Xcano said:


> The Marvel Cosmology has an aleph infinite number of universes.



No and not even a real thing.



> The DC Cosmology has an infinite amount of universes spawned every infinitesimal second. These are pretty much the same thing to the best of my knowledge.



That's just an infinite multiverse then.


----------



## Tonathan100 (Jul 3, 2016)

Xcano said:


> LT is comprised of the entirety of the Marvel Cosmology. The term "omniverse" has been retconned to only include the Marvel franchise as shown by people exiting the omniverse and extra-omniversal threats (the Beyonders).


I'd say that the "current" definition is simply an alternative definition of the Omniverse.

What I mean is that, basically, there are two definitions of the "Omniverse".

Definition 1: all of fiction and real life combined
Definition 2: an infinite continuum of multiverses and megaverses

These definitions often converge, since, beyond VS. debating standard assumptions, a multiverse or megaverse has no set size in fiction.

Now is the time to look up both the DC Comics and Marvel Comics cosmologies.







Basically, while Marvel Comics is larger than DC Comics (because absolutely infinite universes > aleph-ω universes), the Beyonder and Elaine Belloc are on a similar tier of power, due to their feats.

*Elaine Belloc*
1. Elaine Belloc, with the power of Michael Demiurgos can create her own Creation. An Omniverse Level feat.

2. Elaine Belloc can move 1/4th of Creation, moving at infinite velocities in the process. A Multi-Megaverse Level+ feat.


3. Elaine Belloc can will herself to becoming omnipresent across all of Creation. This means that her reality warping is Omniverse Level.

I look for the rest of the scans later.

*Pre-Retcon Beyonder*


Notably, Pre-Retcon Beyonder is millions of times more powerful than the Marvel Comics Multiverse, including M-Bodies of the Living Tribunal. As even M-Bodies of the Living Tribunal are Multi-Megaverse Level+, this is a clear Omniverse Level feat.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 3, 2016)

A good way to picture PR Beyonder.

Take the Pre-Recton brothers, you know which represented the totality of DC and Marvel, against which the Living Tribunal was a literal ant.

Now imagine a Brother so large that compared to it, the Pre-Retcon Brothers are like a drop of water next to the ocean.

That is pretty much what PR Beyonder is.


----------



## mali (Jul 3, 2016)

Cubey said:


> TOAA is not omnipotent if he needed Thanos to do something he couldn't in Marvel: The End.



IIRC it didn't out right state it wasn't capable of doing it.



> Secondly, Lucifer and Michael do not equal the Presence. There are more aspects to the Presence than the will and power, and only Elaine has arguably gained the totality of the Presence's sovereignty.



While that might be true that doesn't change the fact that the raw power of the Presence manifests it's self through Michael and so would he be considered omniversal in regards to DC? Or can the creation that he and Lucifer made be considered an omniverse?



The Mad King said:


> Are you referring to the over monitor? You do know that is the writers that exist outside DC multiverse.
> Secondly the GEB didn't exactly stalemate the presence and is pointless since he absorbed it anyway.



Your making it sound as if the Presence overpowered GEB. If the Presence was truly omnipotent then merging would have never been needed.


----------



## twirdman (Jul 3, 2016)

Xcano said:


> LT is comprised of the entirety of the Marvel Cosmology. The term "omniverse" has been retconned to only include the Marvel franchise as shown by people exiting the omniverse and extra-omniversal threats (the Beyonders).
> 
> *The Marvel Cosmology has an aleph infinite number of universes. The DC Cosmology has an infinite amount of universes spawned every infinitesimal second. These are pretty much the same thing to the best of my knowledge.*
> 
> So you could potentially argue LT = the Presence, although I would say LT < Presence because the Presence can manipulate things on that scale casually.



Those two aren't even remotely the same thing.  An infinite number of universes being spawned every infinitesimal second would at best be read as infiniteXinfiniteXlength of universe which even assuming infinite timeline would be infinite^3 so still aleph null.  I've never seen the term aleph-infinite but I guess you could consider it a power tower of infinite height, but I don't think you are at all meaningful then.  All and all this just sounds meaningless.  Aleph-infinite would be larger than what you are saying for DC which is aleph-null.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 3, 2016)

Wasnt GEB the dark side of The Presence?

In which case then it would not make The Presence any weaker since it would be himself.

Similar to how Carnivore could only be defeated by the female side of The Presence after gaining the male side.


----------



## mali (Jul 3, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> Wasnt GEB the dark side of The Presence?
> 
> In which case then it would not make The Presence any weaker since it would be himself.
> 
> Similar to how Carnivore could only be defeated by the female side of The Presence after gaining the male side.



No, the GEB is something that exists outside of the Presences creation. It's the absence of light (Presence) to simply put it.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Jul 4, 2016)

The GEB was the yang to the Presence ying which the presence merged with and become both embodiments. Which was the point the entire arc if you read it.

That doesn't disprove the Presencr power at all


----------



## Huey Freeman (Jul 4, 2016)

Fang said:


> TMK posts always make me laugh.


Concession accepted


----------



## Fang (Jul 4, 2016)

There's no concession because there is no argument, don't pull an Id now.


----------



## mali (Jul 4, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> The GEB was the yang to the Presence ying which the presence merged with and become both embodiments. Which was the point the entire arc if you read it.
> 
> That doesn't disprove the Presencr power at all



What? Are you saying the GEB and Presence were the same thing before merging? Because having something that is both opposite and equal in power to you kinda means you are not the pinnacle. Also at what point is it stated that the Presence became both embodiment's? The whole ending to the fight literally could not possibly further highlight how equal these 2 beings are, even after "merging".


----------



## Orochibuto (Jul 4, 2016)

Mali said:


> What? Are you saying the GEB and Presence were the same thing before merging? Because having something that is both opposite and equal in power to you kinda means you are not the pinnacle. Also at what point is it stated that the Presence became both embodiment's? The whole ending to the fight literally could not possibly further highlight how equal these 2 beings are, even after "merging".



As far as I understood it was not an external opposite, it was the evil or dark part of The Presence, like Yin and Yang.

Kinda like Carnivore and the Shekinah.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Jul 4, 2016)

Mali said:


> What? Are you saying the GEB and Presence were the same thing before merging? Because having something that is both opposite and equal in power to you kinda means you are not the pinnacle. Also at what point is it stated that the Presence became both embodiment's? The whole ending to the fight literally could not possibly further highlight how equal these 2 beings are, even after "merging".



Both the GEB and Presence are different sides of the same coin. The Presence still created the entire DC multiverse. So I don't see what's your point. In a way The presence and the over monitor are the same thing as well or rather the Presence is an aspect of the over monitor, as the Spector, source and phantom stranger are aspects of the presence. 

 In Marvel the LT hasn't displayed anything close to the Presence so I don't see how you can equate them both


----------



## mali (Jul 4, 2016)

Orochibuto said:


> As far as I understood it was not an external opposite, it was the evil or dark part of The Presence, like Yin and Yang.
> 
> Kinda like Carnivore and the Shekinah.





The Mad King said:


> Both the GEB and Presence are different sides of the same coin. The Presence still created the entire DC multiverse. So I don't see what's your point. In a way The presence and the over monitor are the same thing as well or rather the Presence is an aspect of the over monitor, as the Spector, source and phantom stranger are aspects of the presence.
> 
> In Marvel the LT hasn't displayed anything close to the Presence so I don't see how you can equate them both



At no point, prior to the merging/coming together, were the GEB and Presence stated to be the same thing or even 2 pieces of a whole. Bring out a single scan that supports this please. The difference between the GEB and all those other things that you guys mention is that they are explicitly stated to be apart of the Presence, where as the common characterisation of the GEB is "the absence of divine light".





The fight literally ended in a handshake. How much simpler can it be put.


----------



## The World (Jul 4, 2016)

The Presence/Elaine should still be able to win

Omnipotence is a paradoxical claim anyway

The presence never says that he was created, but does state that he is infinite and eternal.

so he stands at the top of DC/Vertigo Universe with only the "writers" being above him in some 4th wall breaking mumbo jumbo


----------



## God (Jul 4, 2016)

The OBD doesnt even accept true omnipotence anymore because it's logically impossible to prove.


----------



## Nevermind (Jul 4, 2016)

She loses the first match and wins the second. I don't know why this got 50 replies.

Heavy shades of pre-2011 omnipotence stuff here.


----------

