# Law vs Ace



## mastergimmy (Mar 23, 2015)

Instead of Smoker vs Law, we replace it with Ace on the same island

Knowledge: same as Smoker

Battleground: Law vs Smoker


Who would win?


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## Pirao (Mar 23, 2015)

Luffy>Law>=Ace IMO, could go either way but if I was forced to pick a side I'd pick Law.


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## Coruscation (Mar 23, 2015)

Ace doesn't go down in 5 minutes so their fight ends up wrecking the whole laboratory. Law should have a chance of taking it but Ace would be a tougher nut to crack than Smoker. Can go either way.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 23, 2015)

Law slices and dices.


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## Amol (Mar 23, 2015)

I consider them more or less equal.
So fight could go either way .


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## Ruse (Mar 23, 2015)

Law edges it


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 23, 2015)

Issho said:


> Law slices and dices.



Going with this.


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## Bernkastel (Mar 23, 2015)

Law should win.
His hax and haki are enough to connect and beat Ace with high diff.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 23, 2015)

Law 

He has an answer to a lot of ace's offense.


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## Luke (Mar 23, 2015)

Law edges it. 

As far as I'm concerned, Luffy, Law, Kidd, and Drake are all stronger than Ace. Zoro is probably equal to him.


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## TheWiggian (Mar 23, 2015)

Law high (low) diff.


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## Dr. White (Mar 23, 2015)

Law wins with anywhere from Smoker to Vergo difficulty. High diff at most.

Law sets up room and calls WB a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".). Ace blindly rushes in and gets hit with the 3 piece of Shambles + Radio Knife + Injection Shot. I'm half joking but Ace is at a disadvantage in every category except AOE and Physical stats. Law is master manipulator, bot mentally and physically with everything around him. Tact takes care of AOE, and shambles saves him from anything he can't react to with Tact.


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## Kaiser (Mar 23, 2015)

Ace wins this, very high difficulty. He was a level above Jinbe


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## Gohara (Mar 23, 2015)

Ace wins with high to extremely high difficulty, IMO.  A good case can be made for either of them winning, though.


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## ShadoLord (Mar 23, 2015)

Ace wins with mid to high-diff.


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## convict (Mar 23, 2015)

Going with Ace extreme difficulty for now. Starting next arc my opinion will probably change. I expect Law to have grown stronger after his "death".


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## King plasma (Mar 23, 2015)

By feats: Law
By hype: Ace

Going with Law.


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## Intus Legere (Mar 23, 2015)

Maybe I regard Ace higher than most people, but the guy did battle Jinbe for 5 days -- which means they were equally matched --  before he even joined Whitebeard. Which probably points to Ace being considerably stronger than Jinbe later on.

Going by feats, though, Law should win. Without displaying significant haki an opponent of Law is on a natural disadvantage, Logia or not. Ace may have the firepower and the reputation on his side, but anyone below a certain haki threshold will have serious trouble against Law.


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## MYJC (Mar 23, 2015)

Law with high-ish difficulty. 

All in all, Law is just better. Better haki, better stats, better feats, more hax fruit, etc. 


The only think Ace really has over Law is being a logia and maybe AoE, and neither one of those is enough to beat Law. Most likely Ace ends up getting Mes'd up sooner or later (pun intended).


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## Harard (Mar 24, 2015)

I'm going with Ace for now, but by next arc, Law should be ahead of him.


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## The Bloody Nine (Mar 24, 2015)

King plasma said:


> By feats: Law
> By hype: Ace
> .



Im going with Ace high diff. Why does everybody take it for granted that a prodigy like Ace is weaker than current Luffy when he still has like 6 months more experience than him ( Ace was 3 years older).


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## TheWiggian (Mar 24, 2015)

Ace wank is disgusting...


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## Canute87 (Mar 24, 2015)

Law wins.

Lol Entei.


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## Intus Legere (Mar 24, 2015)

The Bloody Nine said:


> Im going with Ace high diff. Why does everybody take it for granted that a prodigy like Ace is weaker than current Luffy when he still has like 6 months more experience than him ( Ace was 3 years older).



Because despite his reputation, he lacks the feats. Honestly, current Luffy feats are comparable to Ace's, and even if they aren't, Luffy got better physical and haki feats to seal the deal.

Yes, he stalemated Jinbe quite some time before his death, defeated Doma and his crew, got to be a Whitebeard commander, had enormous potential, but... what about his feats? Attacking power aside (Entei and Hiken are definitely impressive), his feats are kind of underwhelming.


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## Hosemisnuba (Mar 24, 2015)

Ace wins this mid-high difficulty. As many have pointed out, the guy stalemated Jinbe for five days long before he was even Whitebeard's commander. Furthermore, he has the highest known bounty in the series. Although he may lack in feats, his hype far exceeds Laws and as such, Ace wins.


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## Coruscation (Mar 24, 2015)

Intus Legere said:


> Because despite his reputation, he lacks the feats. Honestly, current Luffy feats are comparable to Ace's, and even if they aren't, Luffy got better physical and haki feats to seal the deal.
> 
> Yes, he stalemated Jinbe quite some time before his death, defeated Doma and his crew, got to be a Whitebeard commander, had enormous potential, but... what about his feats? Attacking power aside (Entei and Hiken are definitely impressive), his feats are kind of underwhelming.



His feats are only arguably underwhelming in the sense that we didn't get enough feats to objectively, quantitatively judge his prowess in some areas. That's not evidence of absence, it's absence of evidence. Judging Ace by lacking feats is no better than judging Kid by the same. As far as the feats he actually performed goes, only one is arguably underwhelming, and even then only if you make a specific assumption about a specific character. The only feat he was ever involved in that looks arguably underwhelming now is taking so much damage from Blackbeard's punches. And it's entirely possible that Blackbeard is just that much of a physical beast and that, not Ace being physically weak, is the reason why those physical blows hurt him so much. The only reason the feat would look underwhelming is if you assume that Blackbeard isn't that physically strong.

Taking Ace's feats at face value he was able to stalemate Aokiji in a direct clash, and later on he was able to intercept Akainu going for Luffy when Akainu was much closer to Luffy. He showed great AOE and fast long distance movement. There's nothing underwhelming about these feats. Especially the two first feats show absolutely incredible speed as well as energy output, if you accept them for what they appear to be. If you don't, then you're just making assumptions of your own to _dis_credit feats that he _does_ have. Doing that and then calling his feats underwhelming isn't really logical. The way Ace was portrayed against Aokiji is better than the way Zoro was portrayed against Fujitora. Maybe you don't want to take that at face value, but it is a fact.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 24, 2015)

convict said:


> Going with Ace extreme difficulty for now. Starting next arc my opinion will probably change. I expect Law to have grown stronger after his "death".



Law is a saiyan after all.


His power level will sky rocket.


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## Harard (Mar 24, 2015)

TheWiggian said:


> Ace wank is disgusting...



That overuse of the word "wank"


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## Kaiser (Mar 24, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Law is a saiyan after all.
> 
> 
> His power level will sky rocket.


I wouldn't be surprised if Oda revealed a shit like this one later in the manga, just like Goku in Dragon Ball where it was only revealed in part2 and the difference was exponentialy seen


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## Intus Legere (Mar 24, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> His feats are only arguably underwhelming in the sense that we didn't get enough feats to objectively, quantitatively judge his prowess in some areas. That's not evidence of absence, it's absence of evidence. Judging Ace by lacking feats is no better than judging Kid by the same.



Ace had one full fight and a few minor fights in the manga. He had opportunity to show his attacking power, his endurance, his fruit prowess and his haki.

Unlike Kid, for instance. I'm not sure why you are comparing the two of them.



> As far as the feats he actually performed goes, only one is arguably underwhelming, and even then only if you make a specific assumption about a specific character. The only feat he was ever involved in that looks arguably underwhelming now is taking so much damage from Blackbeard's punches. And it's entirely possible that Blackbeard is just that much of a physical beast and that, not Ace being physically weak, is the reason why those physical blows hurt him so much. The only reason the feat would look underwhelming is if you assume that Blackbeard isn't that physically strong.



Why should I assume Blackbeard is particularly strong physically?

Blackbeard said it clearly: "" That's a clear statement. Ace was hurt not because Blackbeard was a strength powerhouse in particular -- which would make no sense at all, and Blackbeard already had the opportunities to demonstrate his great strength if that was the case --, Ace was hurt because he is reliant on his Devil Fruit, and being a Logia he was surprised at being hit and seeing his own blood.

Van Auger might be amazed on Ace not being pathetic without his Devil Fruit, going as far calling him amazing. However, we've seen Law doing far more without his Devil Fruit than Ace. As far as current One Piece standards go, without his Devil Fruit Ace is not amazing at all.

Lastly, haki. I'm not saying that he didn't have it, because it would be really weird if he didn't. What I'll say is that his haki was probably nothing remarkable, . Ace clearly said that he'd have to avoid being caught. He's clearly stating that, without his Devil Fruit powers, he's not confident that he has the resources to take down his enemy. One might say that the concept of busoshoku or hardening didn't exist back then, but it doesn't help Ace's case at all. He can't be a busoshoku master, and that is atrocious against someone like Law.




> Taking Ace's feats at face value he was able to stalemate Aokiji in a direct clash, and later on he was able to intercept Akainu going for Luffy when Akainu was much closer to Luffy.





> The way Ace was portrayed against Aokiji is better than the way Zoro was portrayed against Fujitora. Maybe you don't want to take that at face value, but it is a fact.



Zoro clashed with Fujitora twice, and Ace was defeated in one attack in his attempt to intercept Akainu. Best case scenario, it seems about equal to me, and according to his reputation Ace is supposed to be stronger than the likes of Zoro, Luffy and Law.




> He showed great AOE and fast long distance movement. There's nothing underwhelming about these feats. Especially the two first feats show absolutely incredible speed as well as energy output, if you accept them for what they appear to be. If you don't, then you're just making assumptions of your own to _dis_credit feats that he _does_ have. Doing that and then calling his feats underwhelming isn't really logical.



Hold your horses, I didn't say anything about his speed in particular. Although I don't remember any fast long distance movement from him, unless you're talking about intercepting Akainu, and I wouldn't call that a great speed feat. At any rate, compared to Luffy and Law, he definitely loses in the haki, endurance and movement department. Again, meanwhile, given his reputation, he should be above the two of them overall. How's that not underwhelming?

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Coruscation (Mar 24, 2015)

> Ace had one full fight and a few minor fights in the manga. He had opportunity to show his attacking power, his endurance, his fruit prowess and his haki.
> 
> Unlike Kid, for instance. I'm not sure why you are comparing the two of them.



He showed his attacking power, which was very high. He showed his endurance, which was amazing. He showed his DF prowess, which was stellar (further reinforced by post-TS comments). He didn't show Haki, but that's likely just because Haki was barely a concept back when Ace had his main fight. He did attack a Logia, who can only be damaged with Haki, with a punch, so maybe you can make a simple inference...



> Why should I assume Blackbeard is particularly strong physically?



You could make a simple inference:

- Ace has _at least_ the sheer endurance to fight someone who is current M3 level, and can perform  level of attack, for five days.
- Blackbeard dealt considerable damage to Ace with a single punch.

Put one and one together. Blackbeard's punches are very, very strong. Ergo Blackbeard is physically very, very strong. That's not a fact, but why should you assume Blackbeard ISN'T very physically strong? What has he done to make you think he's not? Was it maybe the time he tilted an island as soon as he got the strength-dependent Gura Gura fruit? Maybe the time he blocked a punch from Whitebeard with his hand?



> Ace was hurt not because Blackbeard was a strength powerhouse in particular -- which would make no sense at all, and Blackbeard already had the opportunities to demonstrate his great strength if that was the case --, Ace was hurt because he is reliant on his Devil Fruit, and being a Logia he was surprised at being hit and seeing his own blood.



_That_ makes no sense. That's what we thought at the time. It's completely false. Ace had been hurt as a Logia SEVERAL times before. By Jinbe, by Whitebeard, almost unquestionably by other NW fighters he fought in the NW.



> Van Auger might be amazed on Ace not being pathetic without his Devil Fruit, going as far calling him amazing. However, we've seen Law doing far more without his Devil Fruit than Ace.



So you're going to be a feat zombie? You can't take the author, speaking through one of his characters, on his word? What's the point of discussion if you refuse to accept statements of fact from credible sources because you demand "feats"?



> What I'll say is that his haki was probably nothing remarkable, if he was helpless against Blackbeard's punches. Ace clearly said that he'd have to avoid being caught. *He's clearly stating that, without his Devil Fruit powers, he's not confident that he has the resources to take down his enemy*.



...........and?

What chance in hell would Law, or Luffy for that matter, have against someone their own level if you took away their Devil Fruit powers? None. How is that a strike against Ace, it applies to virtually everyone. Imagine DF-less Law vs. Yami Teach, you're looking at a massacre. This insane bias against Ace is a cancer of this forum. People simply _decide_ to think that Ace was one of those "Logia who think they're invincible" despite the manga shooting that idea in the face time and time again.



> Zoro clashed with Fujitora twice, and Ace was defeated in one attack in his attempt to intercept Akainu. Best case scenario, it seems about equal to me, and according to his reputation Ace is supposed to be stronger than the likes of Zoro, Luffy and Law.



Akainu _hard counters_ Ace. Come on now, please. When Ace faced an Admiral he didn't get hard countered by he simply smiled confidently and matched Aokiji's attack head-on, without showing signs of struggle AKA Zoro vs. Fujitora. So that's better. Take it however seriously you want compared to Fujitora (AKA the man who half-asses everything) vs. Zoro but it's a fact that Ace was portrayed better.

According to what reputation is Ace supposed to be stronger? He absolutely is at least on the same level as them as per his rep, but outright stronger?



> Hold your horses, I didn't say anything about his speed in particular. Although I don't remember any fast long distance movement from him, unless you're talking about intercepting Akainu, and I wouldn't call that a great speed feat.



You asked for feats. Speed feats are feats and Ace has great ones.

The long distance feat is him leaping over ships in Arabasta.

Intercepting Akainu is not a good feat? You do realize he moved _faster_ than Akainu in that instance, right? Moved faster than an Admiral? In what screwed up universe is that not a great speed feat for someone around Luffy/Law level?



> At any rate, compared to Luffy and Law, he definitely loses in the haki, endurance and movement department. Again, meanwhile, given his reputation, he should be above the two of them. How's that not underwhelming?



How on earth does he lose in endurance? He fought Jinbe for five days. _Five days_. He fought a guy with this level of attack power:



For five days. Oh, and he still got up to fight against Whitebeard after that. That is literally one of the best endurance feats in the entire manga. A feat he performed when he was a year younger than Luffy currently is. It's absolutely mindblowing to say that he "definitely" loses to Law in endurance. I could also point to him matching Aokiji after being handcuffed, beaten and likely malnourished for literally weeks.


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## Intus Legere (Mar 24, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> He showed his attacking power, which was very high. He showed his endurance, which was amazing. He showed his DF prowess, which was stellar (further reinforced by post-TS comments). He didn't show Haki, but that's likely just because Haki was barely a concept back when Ace had his main fight. He did attack a Logia, who can only be damaged with Haki, with a punch, so maybe you can make a simple inference...





> You could make a simple inference:
> 
> - Ace has _at least_ the sheer endurance to fight someone who is current M3 level, and can perform  level of attack, for five days.
> - Blackbeard dealt considerable damage to Ace with a single punch.





> How on earth does he lose in endurance? He fought Jinbe for five days. _Five days_. He fought a guy with this level of attack power:



He has incredible stamina. His endurance, as in the ability to stand damage, as far as feats go, is nowhere near stellar. Stamina isn't that important of an attribute in a fight, though, unless it lasts for a long time, and if such a fight happens, Ace's stamina gives him the advantage over Law's stamina draining powers.

Although I don't pretend to know how the fight went, unlike you. There was a fight, a stalemate happened, they were tired afterwards, but what kind of attacks they took on I do not know. Stating that Ace can take on attacks like _Gyojin Karate Ogi: Buraikan_ and survive because he fought Jinbe for five days is not inference, it's assumption -- not a bad one, but it still is an assumption. It's also a good assumption that they had to stop and have lunch, dinner, bladder needs, but there is no inference here, we simply don't know. If you don't pretend to know what happened in the fight, then you should know that the fight vs. Jinbe helps his reputation, but doesn't do much in regards to his feats, *which is the WHOLE point*.




> Put one and one together. Blackbeard's punches are very, very strong. Ergo Blackbeard is physically very, very strong.





> That's not a fact, but why should you assume Blackbeard ISN'T very physically strong? What has he done to make you think he's not? Was it maybe the time he tilted an island as soon as he got the strength-dependent Gura Gura fruit? Maybe the time he blocked a punch from Whitebeard with his hand?



Again, because that's an assumption, and not even a likely one. You're assuming that he took some high level attacks from Jinbe and could keep on  Which makes Blackbeard's tremendous strength theory an assumption built upon another assumption.

Gura Gura fruit is strength dependent? Where did you get that from?

When did he block a legitimate punch from Whitebeard? 

What about Blackbeard causing Luffy pretty much the same amount of damage that he caused pre-skip Luffy? Does it mean that Luffy has stellar endurance, despite Blackbeard's monstrous strength? Does that mean Blackbeard was taking it easy with Luffy?

I think you are on a huge train of assumption here. Also, I think you didn't understand what I was talking about in the post you first quoted.





> _That_ makes no sense. That's what we thought at the time. It's completely false. Ace had been hurt as a Logia SEVERAL times before. By Jinbe, by Whitebeard, almost unquestionably by other NW fighters he fought in the NW.



That's what was clearly implied. There was some time since Ace left Whitebeard's ship, and he might not have been hurt since then. Teach said he was surprised by being hurt, and there was surprise in his face. If that makes no sense to you, then we're reading difference scenes.




> So you're going to be a feat zombie? You can't take the author, speaking through one of his characters, on his word? What's the point of discussion if you refuse to accept statements of fact from credible sources because you demand "feats"?



*My whole point is that his feats don't match up his reputation.* What else exactly did you expect?




> ...........and?
> 
> What chance in hell would Law, or Luffy for that matter, have against someone their own level if you took away their Devil Fruit powers? None. How is that a strike against Ace, it applies to virtually everyone. Imagine DF-less Law vs. Yami Teach, you're looking at a massacre. This insane bias against Ace is a cancer of this forum. People simply _decide_ to think that Ace was one of those "Logia who think they're invincible" despite the manga shooting that idea in the face time and time again.



Luffy could probably throw a Haki punch right at his face. Law could try to cut him. Gears or not, Ope no mi or not, both have demonstrated that they aren't helpless without their fruits. Ace showed nothing of the like, only said that he could not allow himself to get caught.

Before saying I'm insanely biased against Ace, take a minute and consider the discussion we're having here. I'm not denying that Ace isn't one of those Logias: I'm telling you that his reputation and his feats don't match. Then you come trying to argue that I'm denying the author's words.

Are you sure you understand what's being discussed here? 



> Akainu _hard counters_ Ace. Come on now, please. When Ace faced an Admiral he didn't get hard countered by he simply smiled confidently and matched Aokiji's attack head-on, without showing signs of struggle AKA Zoro vs. Fujitora. So that's better. Take it however seriously you want compared to Fujitora (AKA the man who half-asses everything) vs. Zoro but it's a fact that Ace was portrayed better.



Second clash against Fujitora seemed like they were casually fighthing eash other, no sign of advantages on either side. Even the first clash wasn't that one sided. Zoro was panting and had blood on his face, but I'd expect far worse from someone like him in his situation.

At any rate, I just said that Ace's attack power is the only part of his stats that isn't underwhelming. I don't get where you want to arrive by saying that he matched an Admiral attack better than Zoro, because I said that Ace is superior to Zoro, Luffy and Law in attack power department, as he should. 



> According to what reputation is Ace supposed to be stronger? He absolutely is at least on the same level as them as per his rep, but outright stronger?



Commander of the Second Division of the Whitebeard Pirates, which apparently means he's among the stronger commanders, as Jozu and Vista are respectively commanders of the 3rd and 5th divisions. Son of the Pirate King, and someone himself whose potential was praised to be paramount, and he still has six months more of experience on Luffy. Fought Jinbe to a stalemate for five days, and that was quite some time before he even joined Whitebeard crew. He's supposedly strong even without his fruit, but seemed pretty helpless without it.

What else do you need?





> You asked for feats. Speed feats are feats and Ace has great ones.
> 
> The long distance feat is him leaping over ships in Arabasta.
> 
> Intercepting Akainu is not a good feat? You do realize he moved _faster_ than Akainu in that instance, right? Moved faster than an Admiral? In what screwed up universe is that not a great speed feat for someone around Luffy/Law level?



Law can teleport. Luffy has gear second. 

Akainu was going to execute Luffy. It didn't seem like a particularly fast attack, he didn't need speed for a downed fighter anyway, and Ace was right there, close by them. What's to be that much impressed about? Leaping over ships in Arabasta is a good feat. Still doesn't make him more mobile than Luffy or Law.


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## Dr. White (Mar 24, 2015)

Why do people think Law will magically get stronger at the beginning of next Arc?


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## Kaiser (Mar 24, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Why do people think Law will magically get stronger at the beginning of next Arc?


He is a saiyan of the one piece manga. Near death with time to regenerate makes him stronger


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## Dr. White (Mar 24, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> He is a saiyan of the one piece manga. Near death with time to regenerate makes him stronger



Do half saiyans get a Zenkai? Pretty sure only Law's dad was saiyan


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## Coruscation (Mar 24, 2015)

> He has incredible stamina. His endurance, as in the ability to stand damage, as far as feats go, is nowhere near stellar.



He fought Jinbe for five days.

Jinbe. The guy with gigantic strength and huge attack power.

Do you think they were giving each other lovetaps or something?

Unless you think that, Ace has fantastic endurance because he endured plenty of attacks from a monster like Jinbe across the span of 5 days straight.



> If you don't pretend to know what happened in the fight, then you should know that the fight vs. Jinbe helps his reputation, but doesn't do much in regards to his feats, which is the WHOLE point.



Dude. It's a _fight_. What happens in fights? They were both shown bloody as hell. It's not a bloody "assumption" that they both landed plenty of hits on each other.



> Gura Gura fruit is strength dependent? Where did you get that from?
> 
> When did he block a legitimate punch from Whitebeard?
> 
> What about Blackbeard causing Luffy pretty much the same amount of damage that he caused pre-skip Luffy? Does it mean that Luffy has stellar endurance, despite Blackbeard's monstrous strength? Does that mean Blackbeard was taking it easy with Luffy?



We were shown repeatedly how Whitebeard strained his muscles when he tossed out heavy quake punches. Clearly the power is dependent on the user's strength to a high degree, it obviously isn't dependent on DF skill because Blackbeard, having just got the fruit, had absolutely zero skill with it. So what's left is physical strength which just so happens to fit right in with how Whitebeard was shown using it.

When he blocked WB's quake punch with the Yami. He held out his hand and connected with WB's incoming hand which caused WB's fruit to deactivate. That means BB still stopped the force carried by WB's muscle, which is a hell of a lot.

What about it? It's one out of dozens of scenes where things that don't make sense happen. It's no different than say Luffy vs Hyouzou. Blackbeard obviously held back because why would he go all out against someone who was a pissant weakling relative to himself? It's exactly how Luffy himself holds back against weaker people, like Hyouzou.



> That's what was clearly implied. There was some time since Ace left Whitebeard's ship, and he might not have been hurt since then.



No shit. He was traveling in Paradise. How many people can hurt Ace in Paradise? This is irrelevant, Ace took plenty of damage in the New World and he knew how to take a hit.



> Teach said he was surprised by being hurt, and there was surprise in his face. If that makes no sense to you, then we're reading difference scenes.



The surprise came from being suddenly unable to use his DF. *That* is something unlike what he had ever experienced before. Not merely getting hit. He had been beaten within an inch of his life since aquiring his Logia, he's not going to get surprised by people managing to hit him.



> My whole point is that his feats don't match up his reputation.



Yes they *do*. Unless you make specific assumptions about specific characters to arrive at the conclusion that they don't. Which is what you're doing, but that's completely illogical. It's like being told from a reliable source that an object is very durable. Then someone smashes that object with a huge hammer and breaks it. Instead of concluding the guy with the hammer was very strong you then conclude the object was actually very fragile. It makes no sense, why don't you go with the conclusion that's actually *outright stated in the manga?* It's so typical of people around here to throw their own assumptions in front of what the manga states when it comes to Ace. He was a beast without his DF, stated fact, and still people persist in trying to paint him as some idiot Logia who couldn't fight without it or take a hit.



> Luffy could probably throw a Haki punch right at his face. Law could try to cut him. Gears or not, Ope no mi or not, both have demonstrated that they aren't helpless without their fruits. Ace showed nothing of the like, only said that he could not allow himself to get caught.



Of course he couldn't allow himself to get caught. He would lose if he got caught too often. SO WOULD LUFFY OR LAW. They'd both get their asses kicked even if they tried to put up some token resistance. That's a plain fact.

You're denying feats of Ace's like fighting Jinbe for 5 days, a monster physical fighter. You're denying the direct statement of Van Auger that Ace's basic combat abilities were incredible. All so you can stick to a stubborn "he didn't show the feats" position. Why be this irrational instead of accepting what the manga plainly wants you to think?



> Before saying I'm insanely biased against Ace, take a minute and consider the discussion we're having here. I'm not denying that Ace isn't one of those Logias: I'm telling you that his reputation and his feats don't match. Then you come trying to argue that I'm denying the author's words.



They don't not match. You're taking absence of evidence as evidence of absence. If we had seen Ace *try and fail* to fight decently without his fruit, THAT would be his rep and feats not matching. But that never happened. We simply never got to see him do it at all. That means we only have the rep and not the feats. But the rep is good enough because it would be completely asinine for Oda to write it into his manga that Ace's basic combat abilities are incredible if he meant for them to be poor. It's no different in this respect than any other hype that has yet to be proven.



> Second clash against Fujitora seemed like they were casually fighthing eash other, no sign of advantages on either side. Even the first clash wasn't that one sided. Zoro was panting and had blood on his face, but I'd expect far worse from someone like him in his situation.



They locked swords. That's literally it. And we _know_ Fujitora was playing around the whole time and never wanted to capture the Straw Hats. Zoro didn't do a bad job in the first clash, but he certainly did worse than what Ace did against Aokiji.



> Commander of the Second Division of the Whitebeard Pirates, which apparently means he's among the stronger commanders, as Jozu and Vista are respectively commanders of the 3rd and 5th divisions. Son of the Pirate King, and someone himself whose potential was praised to be paramount, and he still has six months more of experience on Luffy. Fought Jinbe to a stalemate for five days, and that was quite some time before he even joined Whitebeard crew.



No, Oda has stated that division numbers have nothing to do with strength. Son of PK, so what? That doesn't mean anything out of context. 6 months of experience is nice but all experience isn't equal. Luffy training with Rayleigh or the SNs being in the thick of it in the NW can very plausibly have boosted their power more than Ace chilling on the WB's ship boosted his, while he'd get into some decent fights he'd never be in the truly fighting for his life situations that the super rookies were, nor was he personally trained 24/7 by a living legend, at most his crewmates gave him some pointers. Fighting Jinbe at 18 1/2 years old is an amazing feat and shows he was even stronger than Luffy at the same exact age. But again, all experience is not equal and the experience Luffy got past his 18 1/2 point was likely better than what Ace got which would cause Luffy to grow faster and slowly start catching up. So no, none of this implies he _should_ be superior to the top SNs, although he very well might be.



> Law can teleport. Luffy has gear second.
> 
> Akainu was going to execute Luffy. It didn't seem like a particularly fast attack, he didn't need speed for a downed fighter anyway, and Ace was right there, close by them. What's to be that much impressed about?



And? Luffy hasn't even done anything as impressive as intercepting two Admirals with Gear 2nd if we're going to start being technical, which is apparently what you want since you're so obsessed with Ace's "feats". Warping is movement speed, not attack speed, Ace just has to be able to react and considering he could react to Akainu that shouldn't be a problem.

Didn't "seem" like a fast attack, so now what you think an attack "seems" like matters? I thought this was about raw feats with no assumptions, right? You don't get to keep your cake and eat it too. If you want to be super technical about feats then Ace's feat of moving faster than Akainu is better than any speed feat Luffy or Law has simply by virtue of Akainu being an Admiral, and if he can move faster than Akainu then he sure as hell isn't having any problems with the speeds of Luffy and Law.


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## convict (Mar 24, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Why do people think Law will magically get stronger at the beginning of next Arc?



It is the same reason the strawhats get stronger every arc pretty much. Overcoming difficult situation spurs growth. And what Law had to overcome was less than no one.


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## Dr. White (Mar 24, 2015)

convict said:


> It is the same reason the strawhats get stronger every arc pretty much. Overcoming difficult situation spurs growth. And what Law had to overcome was less than no one.



Eh, growth really only happens IMO when you need to transcend something, or you have a fight that causes you to transcend yourself. Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji needed to develop finishers to compete (after their defeat at the hands of Aokiji and CP9 in W7), Zoro needed to become stronger mid fight to cut steel, etc.

Law's fights this arc weren't really growth fights, they were just showcasing his current level. After his first encounter Law wasn't at full power, and the closest thing to an actual fight he got was getting beat by Dofla pretty handily 3 times. Law built upon the powers of the Ope for taking dofla down but obviously will need Luffy. That's the reason I think Oda is having Law be more impressive than Luffy. It wouldn't make sense atleast from my perspective for Law to have a significant power jump, where as with Luffy I could see it happening. I think Law > Luffy with the gap Luffy has over Zoro, and I can see Luffy growing so much from Mingo that he surpasses Law. If Law to grows as much, then I'd be seeing it as Law >= Luffy still.


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## convict (Mar 24, 2015)

I'll just give one example, Sanji didn't really need to transcend himself to overcome Mr 2 and he kept up with Zoro and Luffy who did so during their respective fights just fine. It isn't just the fact that Sanji had a difficult struggle, but after Arabasta his peers got stronger and he had to keep up, and the same principle applies to Law honestly. Additionally, Law having to fight through such handicaps at such a high level can be seen as growth. I highly doubt he was ever pushed to such limits before, and thus when he is able to fight at full power later on, experiencing and fighting in such a handicapped state surely gives him an edge.


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## Dr. White (Mar 24, 2015)

convict said:


> I'll just give one example, Sanji didn't really need to transcend himself to overcome Mr 2 and he kept up with Zoro and Luffy who did so during their respective fights just fine. It isn't just the fact that Sanji had a difficult struggle, but after Arabasta his peers got stronger and he had to keep up, and the same principle applies to Law honestly. Additionally, Law having to fight through such handicaps at such a high level can be seen as growth. I highly doubt he was ever pushed to such limits before, and thus when he is able to fight at full power later on, experiencing and fighting in such a handicapped state surely gives him an edge.



Yeah true. I guess I just meant Law's growth won't be near Luffy's. Imo it won't be too significant at all.


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Eh, growth really only happens IMO when you need to transcend something, or you have a fight that causes you to transcend yourself. Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji needed to develop finishers to compete (after their defeat at the hands of Aokiji and CP9 in W7), Zoro needed to become stronger mid fight to cut steel, etc.


The manga states they get stronger with each island, so that's really not something that can be denied. As for why that's the case, there are a few reason, their physical exertion from travels buffs them up physically a bit as that happens in most mangas, but also they gain experience and knowledge from facing a variety of foes. Experience means the chance to figure out different ways and methods of using techniques as well as leveling up techniques. 

Gaining new abilities are more major power ups, but the passive growth between islands is still significant. That's why Luffy goes from struggling against pirates like Don Krieg in East-Blue to one shotting Bellamy in Jaya, despite not utilizing any new techniques to do so. 



> Law's fights this arc weren't really growth fights, they were just showcasing his current level. After his first encounter Law wasn't at full power, and the closest thing to an actual fight he got was getting beat by Dofla pretty handily 3 times.


Law will get stronger passively just like the SH's. The plot basically demands that to be the case since Law will need to be stronger to take on Kaidou and his crew in the coming Arc. Law will physically get stronger due to the exertion he put out in DR, he'll also become a technically better fighter from the experience and knowledge he gained in DR. 



> It wouldn't make sense atleast from my perspective for Law to have a significant power jump, where as with Luffy I could see it happening. I think Law > Luffy with the gap Luffy has over Zoro, and I can see Luffy growing so much from Mingo that he surpasses Law. If Law to grows as much, then I'd be seeing it as Law >= Luffy still.


The only reason this doesn't make sense, is because of your belief that Law must be stronger than Luffy, than Luffy must surpass him by next arc. That's not necessarily the case. If Law is stronger than Luffy, than Luffy will mostly likely have circumstances heavily on his side to allow him to defeat DD and he'll just go into next arc weaker than Law. Or he'll get a active instead of passive power up against DD, that puts him ahead of Law's passive DR growth. 

Or and what I feel is most likely, Luffy has always been stronger than Law and Law just has looked better feat wise since he's had the oppertunity to fight more impressive enemies than Luffy thus far. Vergo > Ceaser, and than he fought DD/Fujitora multiple times solo, while Luffy is only now getting his chance at a solo fight.


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## Canute87 (Mar 24, 2015)

Many people's saving graces against law was that as haxxed as he was Ace's ovehyped physical ability would see him through.

Obviously dressrosa arc has completely shit on that notion with law taking on smoker, cutting through vergo, dealing with fujitora's far more powerful onslaughts and going against someone of flamingo's which is  skill > Ace and landing a good attack on him in the process while not being at 100% with lead bullets being in him at a time.


Sorry Ace has nothing here to win.


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## Intus Legere (Mar 25, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The manga states they get stronger with each island, so that's really not something that can be denied.



Not something that can be quantified, either. You always say that, but what measuring stick are you using to examine Luffy's growth?



> That's why Luffy goes from struggling against pirates like Don Krieg in East-Blue to one shotting Bellamy in Jaya, despite not utilizing any new techniques to do so.



How are you comparing Don Krieg and Bellamy? Bounty? Experience on the Grand Line?


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## Kaito (Mar 29, 2015)

Law>Ace

Ace is strong, but relies too much on his devil fruit.


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## Yuki (Mar 29, 2015)

DeaththeKid741 said:


> Law>Ace
> 
> Ace is strong, but relies too much on his devil fruit.



And... Law doesn't?  O_O

Wot...


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## Magentabeard (Mar 29, 2015)

loooooooooooooool!

Law wins with low difficulty.


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## Freechoice (Apr 8, 2015)

Law high diff


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