# Naruto



## Trojan (May 14, 2014)

Well, as you can see kishi made them (Naruto, Sasuke, and madara) insanely powerful, and we haven't even seen his full power yet.  

so, other than Sasuke, Madara, Kaguya and her family, is it possible to defeat current Naruto? 

Naruto can only use 4 clones, and he is against everyone else. 

Note: the clones do NOT get the Gedu-damas as it seems that they do not have it in the manga.

Note2: Dai can gets Gai's feat as well with the gates.


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## Triggenism (May 14, 2014)

Juubito is still in the fold (I assume). And with both Dai and Gai being that strong + the entire shinobi world (except the individuals you restricted) Naruto is going to get wrecked here. And I say this even as a fan. Anyone would get wrecked by that many opponents.


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## Arles Celes (May 14, 2014)

I guess 8th Gate Guy could give Naruto at least some trouble and could damage him a bit. Though he would most likely lose even before the time limit run out.

Juubito may offer some resistance. But just that...some resistance before being inevitably defeated.

Maybe Hashi  could last over a minute if he unleashed Shinsenju right away and backed it with mokuryu and mokujin with a forest full of sleeping pollen to at least distract Naruto a bit. He would inevitably lose though.

So yeah, the only ones who have any actual chance of defeating Naruto are Current Sasuke, Current Madara, Kaguya and her closest family(probably only her sons).

Naruto could now comfortably solo Akatsuki and probably all 5 hokages with some extra normal kages as a small snack. He would utterly stomp the Alliance even in its full 80000 membership.


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## Cognitios (May 14, 2014)

2 8th Gate users
SM Hashirama
Kabuto + Edo Army
Orochimaru + Edo Kage
BM Minato
Juubito
Healthy Mobile Nagato
Together they can probably push a mid-high diff.
Add in the shinobi world and they win. High diff, but they win.


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## Triggenism (May 14, 2014)

Arles Celes said:


> I guess 8th Gate Guy could give Naruto at least some trouble and could damage him a bit. Though he would most likely lose even before the time limit run out.
> 
> Juubito may offer some resistance. But just that...some resistance before being inevitably defeated.
> 
> ...



I agree with you, but remember that he has to face basically the whole ninja world at once. A big fat mass of enemies all targetting him at once. While he can survive almost all of those attacks in isolated situations, in this scenario with 100,000+ ninjutsu and genjutsu attacks going after him at once he's gonna get overwhelmed immediately. 

I think if Naruto had prep and could go from village to village in a normal ninja day where the armies aren't prepped. He would demolish everyone.

But against this many I'm not sure even Kaguya or Hagoromo can defeat the combined Naruto world alone.


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## KeyofMiracles (May 14, 2014)

Kifflom!! said:


> Juiboto and 8th gate guy would wreck him



Lol, hell no.


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## Trojan (May 14, 2014)

The best scenarios I can imagine in my head is. 

1- They give Kakashi big enough chakra to teleport Naruto  and/or his Gedu-damas while he's busy fighting
the others. So, they will be done as he can't get out of their without one of obito's eyes. Perhaps, this is their absolute best scenario for them. 

2- Minato take Naruto's Gedu-damas as he did to Madara, and thus weakening his attack/defense. 
either he does that with his own body as he did in the manga, or with S/T barrier. Then, Gai use the 8th gates
to fight against him either by himself, or with his father's aid. 

I can't think of many others, there are some possibilities, but they seem unlikely.


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## Kyu (May 14, 2014)

Eighth Gated Gai & Dai are the only thing resembling a threat. Everyone else dies horribly in the crossfire. A significantly weaker BSM Naruto could solo the Shinobi Alliance+Gokage(minus edo Hashi & edo Minato).


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## Arles Celes (May 14, 2014)

Triggenism said:


> I agree with you, but remember that he has to face basically the whole ninja world at once. A big fat mass of enemies all targetting him at once. While he can survive almost all of those attacks in isolated situations, in this scenario with 100,000+ ninjutsu and genjutsu attacks going after him at once he's gonna get overwhelmed immediately.
> 
> I think if Naruto had prep and could go from village to village in a normal ninja day where the armies aren't prepped. He would demolish everyone.
> 
> But against this many I'm not sure even Kaguya or Hagoromo can defeat the combined Naruto world alone.



The thing is that the whole world matters only when there is no difference in tiers by like...10 levels when it concerns most(99%) of the world shinobi who face him.

He casually kills nameless fodders, takes like 2-3 seconds to kill guys like Kakashi/Darui/Mifune, around 5 seconds to defeat a regular kage level opponent like Ei/Tsunade/Gaara, around 30sec-2 minutes to defeat guys like Hashi/Minato and his greatest challenge are Juubito and 8th Gate Guy whom are the only ones that he needs to watch for as everyone else is just a mere nuisance.

Its like putting Tsunade against a 1000 part 1 Naruto's clones, 10 part1 Neji's, 3 Anko's and 2 pre-Hebi Sasukes.


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## Triggenism (May 14, 2014)

Alright. You won me over.

However can Naruto tank Night Guy? That is one of the big questions for me. I mean just look at Madara's facial expression as he got hit by the attack:


*Spoiler*: __ 



]




If that kick connects I fear Naruto's facial expression will be of similar horror.


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## Trojan (May 14, 2014)

As strong as Naruto is, there is no way he's tanking night guy without problems. He might lose half of his body
or even die. The question is, if he lost half of his body, can he regenerate with his magic hand, or not? @>@


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## blk (May 14, 2014)

To the people saying that Juubito isn't enough: what exactly puts Naruto above him?

Juubito has greater firepower, more chakra (cause of Juubi), probably similar durability and similar regen (and with this i'm being generous to Naruto, since he didn't shown any regeneration feat that is on the same level of Juubi's Jins feats, as far as i remember).
Their speed should be roughly equal since both use Juubi-quality chakra (Naruto has a part of the chakra of all the Bijuu) for the shunshin.

This is not even a matter of Naruto being a bad match-up for Juubito, considering that they have pratically the same moveset (black balls that disintegrate stuff and nullify ninjutsu and attacks with huge AoE, such as Juubidamas and the latest kind of FRS).

They are equal on everything that is relevant except for the firepower, in which Juubito is superior.

Red Gai is another possibility, but whether he wins or not heavily depends on the starting conditions of the battle.


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## KeyofMiracles (May 14, 2014)

Hussain said:


> As strong as Naruto is, there is no way he's tanking night guy without problems. He might lose half of his body
> or even die. The question is, if he lost half of his body, can he regenerate with his magic hand, or not? @>@



Gai shouldn't be able to touch Gudo Dama. [X]

And if enough of them are used, they can even withstand Juubidama (which should have Nature Energy in it as the Juubi's power is all Nature Energy) So either its special properties prevent Gai from touching it, or Night Gai is outright tanked.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 14, 2014)

Might dai could not even wipe out the seven swordsman so he is not touching current naruto 8th gate or not.
Red steam gai, juubito and to a lesser extent SM hashirama with oro+kabuto and their top edos are the only thing threatening naruto in the least.

Depends on how they deal with naruto's nukes honestly. If naruto gets them off everyone is dying...to be truthful gai is like the only one that could really stop him everyone should be back up. Shukaku's power+truth seeking orbs make edo's like normal shinobi also. Add in naruto's sensing and gai is like the only one who can really hit him with night gai. While it makes sense that naruto's yang power would work on himself i'm sure people won't stand for that but he should be able to heal from that.

Anyway the gap is only gonna get larger as naruto powers up and while i'm iffy now once he gets that bijuu avatar which is perfect for fighting armies.....


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## Triggenism (May 14, 2014)

But if both Dai and Gai use their Night attacks. Naruto is gonna get absolutely demolished as we saw what happened to Madara's body. Now multiply that damage. If Dai lands his kick on his chest and Gai on his back, Naruto's body will fly off in three pieces, upper torso and head, midsection and third part would be waist and down. Then the rest of the alliance eviscerate what's left of his body.


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## trance (May 14, 2014)

Gai with the eighth gate will definitely give him trouble but I don't see him winning. Everyone else stands no chance.


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## Trojan (May 14, 2014)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Gai shouldn't be able to touch Gudo Dama. [X]
> 
> And if enough of them are used, they can even withstand Juubidama (which should have Nature Energy in it as the Juubi's power is all Nature Energy) So either its special properties prevent Gai from touching it, or Night Gai is outright tanked.



How did he save kakashi then? @>@
X
X


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## Blu-ray (May 14, 2014)

Gai can touch Godoudama. Are we forgetting his kick snapped Madara's staff in two like it was a twig, and that Naruto outright kicked it? Even if Naruto only managed due to his power, Gai still touched it.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 14, 2014)

I thought gai's attack distorting space caused the staff to break. I mean minato told him not to touch those things for a reason guys...

Also elia gai saved kakashi by just yanking him out the way....no way he took that with his back in the six gate.


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## Rocky (May 14, 2014)

blk said:


> Their speed should be roughly equal since both use Juubi-quality chakra (Naruto has a part of the chakra of all the Bijuu) for the shunshin.



Naruto pegged Madara with that sealing Rasengan, who only escaped through the use of Limbo. Obito cannot do that, so he loses there.


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## Jagger (May 14, 2014)

Kifflom!! said:


> Juiboto and 8th gate guy would wreck him


I wouldn't be so sure about it. Juudara, that was much stronger than Juubito, was running away from them (Naruto and Sasuke) and needed his remaining eye in order to match them. 

Juubito isn't wrecking him and neither is 8th Gated Gai.


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## KeyofMiracles (May 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> How did he save kakashi then? @>@
> Agan, this shows he's in complete control despite being pinned by Myonjinmon.
> Agan, this shows he's in complete control despite being pinned by Myonjinmon.



He moved him out of the way.



VolatileSoul said:


> Gai can touch Godoudama. Are we forgetting his kick snapped Madara's staff in two like it was a twig, and that Naruto outright kicked it? Even if Naruto only managed due to his power, Gai still touched it.



The force from Gai's attack knocked his staff away. Not once did he ever touch Gudo Dama with his own limbs, and yes, Naruto did only touch it because of his power up.

Gai can't touch Gudo Dama.


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## blk (May 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Naruto pegged Madara with that sealing Rasengan, who only escaped through the use of Limbo. Obito cannot do that, so he loses there.



As if Naruto can simply make the Rasengan and hit Juubito whenever he wants.


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## Rocky (May 15, 2014)

blk said:


> As if Naruto can simply make the Rasengan and hit Juubito whenever he wants.



That's kind of what he did to Madara, who's stronger than Obito in every way possible.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That's kind of what he did to Madara, who's stronger than Obito in every way possible.



but that was with the help of Sasuke's jutsu who kinda teleported (?) madara in between to get hit
by their jutsus. Naruto shouldn't be able to do the same thing without Sasuke's help. @.@

In addition to that, madara had only 1 Gedu-Dama due to Minato taking all the others from him, here obito has his own
+ all the others helping him. @.@


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## Rocky (May 15, 2014)

I don't think that was teleportation. Just their movement speed.


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## Ghost (May 15, 2014)

Without Sasuke, Madara and the Sennin's family in the opposing team, Naruto rapes hard.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't think that was teleportation. Just their movement speed.



but Sasuke told Naruto to attack HIM, and when he did, Sasuke made madara appear in between. They did not really move. 

The force from Gai's attack knocked his staff away.
here when Sasuke told Naruto to use his jutsu towards him

and here madara appear to take the attack 
The force from Gai's attack knocked his staff away.

though I don't like to talk about Sasuke's jutsu because I still don't understand how it works so...


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 15, 2014)

Kaguya
Hagoromo
EMS Madara w/ 100% Kyuubi, One-Eyed Rinnegan Madara (SM) and JJ Madara
Juubito
Current Sasuke
Sage Hashirama
Shimon Gai

One people capable of defeating Current Naruto and/or giving him some trouble


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## Rocky (May 15, 2014)

Saddam said:
			
		

> but Sasuke told Naruto to attack HIM, and when he did, Sasuke made madaa appear in between. They did not really move.



Oh shit you're completely right.  

I missed that.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Kaguya
> Hagoromo*
> EMS Madara w/ 100% Kyuubi, One-Eyed Rinnegan Madara (SM) *and JJ Madara
> Juubito
> ...



I don't agree with the bold, they get fodderstomped. Madara even was running from him. Naruto in base with his YRS solo'd madara without much effort.

****
why on earth does my Name appear like "Saddam" in that quote


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## DaVizWiz (May 15, 2014)

The verse wins. 

Since you restricted Kaguya's family, I'm assuming you're allowing dead champions + armies into the fold, as you deliberately restricted the dead kaguya family. In which case, you're probably looking at multiple generations of ninja (stronger in the beginning compared to now, I.E. closer we get to Ashura + Indra the stronger the ninja).

Which equates to arguably 100+ S-ranks, probably 300,000 ninja at least (several great ninja wars in this era = a shit load of ninja to fight them, greater than 3 generations of ninshu at least), and the 100,000 Zetsu Obito made. 

Koto alone would stop him, though that's debatable (as Naruto has 9 other bijuu personalities within him, and apparently Hogormo's power defies reality).

After seeing Sakura taking the initiative, and Sasuke/Naruto failing to reach Judara before Sakura's shunshin did- I'm beginning to think the gap between them and the other S-ranks isn't that much, or so Kishimoto is trying to show us.


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I don't agree with the bold, they get fodderstomped. Madara even was running from him. Naruto in base with his YRS solo'd madara without much effort.



Do you realize how weakened Madara was?
Half of his entire chest was blown apart by Shimon Gai...

Would you expect the guy to put up some fight after getting out of something brutal like that?

Even as Juubi Jin, that's a ridiculous handicap...especially if you're fighting someone who got boosted by Rikudou Sennin himself. In that situation, I'd say that EMS Madara w/ 100% Kyuubi and Sage Hashirama were stronger.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Do you realize how weakened Madara was?
> Half of his entire chest was blown apart by Shimon Gai...
> 
> Would you expect the guy to put up some fight after getting out of something brutal like that?
> ...



He recovered though, but I guess what you said is a possibility. 

- Stronger than who? I really hope you don't mean Naruto.


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> He recovered though, but I guess what you said is a possibility.
> 
> - Stronger than who? I really hope you don't mean Naruto.



I was referring to weakened JJ Madara.


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## DaVizWiz (May 15, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Do you realize how weakened Madara was?
> Half of his entire chest was blown apart by Shimon Gai...
> 
> Would you expect the guy to put up some fight after getting out of something brutal like that?
> ...


I'm certain Madara tried to use the same excuse, though he corrected himself [1]

After the fight with Gai he wasn't that much weaker than his normal self, otherwise the author would have made it obvious. Inability to react isn't a symptom of bodily injury, that's a symptom of simply being slower. 

Naruto outpaced his pre-god tree self with ease while in base (with the BSM oculars) and hit him with an attack with ease, not because Madara was weakened, but because Naruto was simply that strong.

Moreover, I see Judara's body with scrapes and minor cuts here [1], is that suppose to be an indication that his abilities are severely hindered? By god, the dude ported to the kamui dimension while bisected, floated in front of Obito and had a casual conversation with him while missing half a body. Ninja with less recovery capacities have performed close to their peak with more severe injuries than what Judara was facing- he's practically immortal with an inextinguishable stamina/chakra pool.


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## Ghost (May 15, 2014)

Guy isn't doing jack shit to Naruto.


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## blk (May 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That's kind of what he did to Madara, who's stronger than Obito in every way possible.



Hussain pretty much said everything that there was to say. Sasuke teleported Madara and the latter had just one black sphere.




saikyou said:


> Without Sasuke, Madara and the Sennin's family in the opposing team, Naruto rapes hard.



What about Juubito? He is stronger than Naruto.



Hussain said:


> I don't agree with the bold, they get fodderstomped. Madara even was running from him. *Naruto in base with his YRS solo'd madara without much effort.*
> 
> ****
> why on earth does my Name appear like "Saddam" in that quote



The bold is a total bullshit.
The YRS didn't do any significant damage to Madara and the latter wasn't even ready for that.
Put Naruto vs a fresh and ready Juubidara, with ALL of the black spheres, and the fight will go differently.



DaVizWiz said:


> Inability to react isn't a symptom of bodily injury, that's a symptom of simply being slower.
> 
> Naruto outpaced his pre-god tree self with ease while in base (with the BSM oculars) and hit him with an attack with ease, not because Madara was weakened, but because Naruto was simply that strong.



In the same page that you linked you can see that Madara blocked the punch. There was no blitz.
Also, Madara was clearly unprepared for such a sudden assault.


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## Kyu (May 15, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> *EMS Madara w/ 100% Kyuubi*, One-Eyed Rinnegan Madara (SM)
> *Sage Hashirama*
> 
> 
> One people capable of defeating Current Naruto and/or giving him some trouble



Naruto had Juubi Jin Madara running like a bitch *before* powering up. Meanwhile Hashirama admits inferiority to a v1 Juubito. 

Rikudo Sage Naruto rips Hashi & Madara a new asshole.


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## Rocky (May 15, 2014)

blk said:


> What about Juubito? He is stronger than Naruto.



Naruto's opponent is currently far above Obito ever was. You claim the reason that Pre-Tree Madara lost to Naruto is because he was injured, but Madara himself used that same excuse. He then retracted that statement because it wasn't the actual reason.

There isn't really any jutsu evidence to support Naruto being stronger than Obito? you're correct in that. But there isn't any evidence to the contrary either, considering Naruto isn't done fighting yet. We both know, for certain, that there will be more to show. The only thing Obito has over Naruto is firepower, and guess what: Obito also has that advantage on current Madara by "feats."

Everything else goes to Naruto. Dodging Limbo is better than any of Obito's speed feats, and stamina wise Naruto has all of the bijū. Obito was missing the final two.


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## Rocky (May 15, 2014)

I'll keep going and address the original post.



blk said:


> Juubito has greater firepower



This is unproven.



> more chakra (cause of Juubi)



Obito has the Chakra of bijū 1-7, and pieces of the final two. Naruto has the power off all nine.



> Probably similar durability



Unsubstantiated until Naruto's durability is tested...



> similar regen (and with this i'm being generous to Naruto, since he didn't shown any regeneration feat that is on the same level of Juubi's Jins feats, as far as i remember).



Naruto revived the dead with a pat on the chest. I think your generosity is unnecessary. The worst thing Obito healed was his wound from Rasengan.



> Their speed should be roughly equal since both use Juubi-quality chakra (Naruto has a part of the chakra of all the Bijuu) for the shunshin.



Naruto has senjutsu straight from Rikudō Sennin himself, granting him sensing abilities that allow him to dodge Limbo and go hand to hand with four _invisible_ Rikudō Madara clones _that he can't even see._

What are Obito's speed feats on par with that?


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## Kai (May 15, 2014)

Regarding the totality of the bijuus, Madara still misses Kurama's Yin half yet I'm sure he's considered no less complete as a perfect Juubi's Jinchuuriki with all his power. Naruto's usage of the bijuu chakras was able to fight at Madara's level despite only possessing their chakras and not their full forms. 

Makes me think Obito wasn't in deficit when he still possessed the Hachibi and Kyuubi chakras (after many Juubi transformations), and was never stated to be lacking in comparison to a full Juubi's Jin. I've had a tendency to think Madara is a more powerful Juubi's Jin because he has more powers of the Sage stacked on top of the bijuus, not because he was a host of more bijuus.

Kishi simply won't allow all nine full beasts in one host. I think Kishi wants us to believe a Juubi's Jin can be at full power even without their whole forms.


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## blk (May 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You claim the reason that Pre-Tree Madara lost to Naruto is because he was injured, but Madara himself used that same excuse. He then retracted that statement because it wasn't the actual reason.



No, i'm claiming that Naruto never defeated Madara.

1) Madara blocked the punch.

2) The YRS didn't do any significant damage.

3) Madara wasn't prepared for the assault (being unprepared is not the same thing as being weakened).

4) Madara didn't have all of his black orbs.

Saying that Naruto defeated Madara is like saying that Gai defeated him when he hit him with his first evening elephant.



> There isn't really any jutsu evidence to support Naruto being stronger than Obito– you're correct in that. But there isn't any evidence to the contrary either, considering Naruto isn't done fighting yet. We both know, for certain, that there will be more to show. The only thing Obito has over Naruto is firepower, and guess what: Obito also has that advantage on current Madara by "feats."
> 
> Everything else goes to Naruto. Dodging Limbo is better than any of Obito's speed feats, and stamina wise Naruto has all of the bijū. Obito was missing the final two.



We can safely assume that Madara has the same firepower of Juubito, because he has, literally, the same quantity and quality of chakra within him.

Dodging limbo is nothing special.

Naruto has only a part of the chakra of the Bijuus, Madara is the one that has the actual Bijuus within him.



> This is unproven.



This is what a small Juubidama can do [1].
This is the kind of Juubidama that Juubito can do [2].

Naruto hasn't shown attacks as powerful as those.



> Obito has the Chakra of bijū 1-7, and pieces of the final two. Naruto has the power off all nine.



Naruto has only a part of the chakra of the Bijuus, Madara is the one that has the actual Bijuus within him.



> Unsubstantiated until Naruto's durability is tested...



I know, that's another reason why i said that i'm being generous with Naruto.



> Naruto revived the dead with a pat on the chest. I think your generosity is unnecessary. The worst thing Obito healed was his wound from Rasengan.



That is definetly not the same thing as the kind of regeneration i'm talking about.
Juubito regenerated after that he destroyed half of his body while the Juubi was taking control of him.
Also, he immediatly regenerated after that Sasuke's PS cut through him.

But regardless of those feats, we can safely assume that he has the same regenerative power of Madara and the Juubi (since he has literally the same quantity and kind of power).



> Naruto has senjutsu straight from Rikudō Sennin himself, granting him sensing abilities that allow him to dodge Limbo and go hand to hand with four invisible Rikudō Madara clones that he can't even see.
> 
> What are Obito's speed feats on par with that?



I don't know what's so special about going hand to hand with Limbo clones.

Juubito blitzed Hashirama, Tobirama, cut Minato's arm before he could teleport (which requires just the thought), blitzed KCM Naruto and Sasuke.
By virtue of having the Juubi, we can safely assume that he has a similar speed to Juubidara.
And maybe there are more feats.


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## Rocky (May 15, 2014)

blk said:


> We can safely assume that Madara has the same firepower of Juubito, because he has, literally, the same quantity and quality of chakra within him.



So does Naruto.



> Dodging limbo is nothing special.



What makes you say that?



> Naruto has only a part of the chakra of the Bijuus, Madara is the one that has the actual Bijuus within him.



So far he's interacted with them more so than Madara, so again, what makes you say that? Naruto has literally spoken with Son, Shukaku, and Kurama.



> This is what a small Juubidama can do [1].
> This is the kind of Juubidama that Juubito can do [2].
> 
> Naruto hasn't shown attacks as powerful as those.



He hasn't, but neither has Madara, and both him and Naruto have the power of the bijū that Obito does.



> That is definetly not the same thing as the kind of regeneration i'm talking about.
> Juubito regenerated after that he destroyed half of his body while the Juubi was taking control of him.
> Also, he immediatly regenerated after that Sasuke's PS cut through him.



Oh.

You're right, Naruto's never shown regeneration like that. That's because he hasn't been injured. Considering he can create eyeballs and even reverse the  effects of the 8th Gate with a mere touch, I'm not ruling out self regeneration. Though I could be wrong. 



> I don't know what's so special about going hand to hand with Limbo clones.



It's a better cqc feat than anything Jūbito has accomplished. Madara is superior to Obito in every way, and Naruto can't even _see_ him, yet he's fighting him hand to hand. 



> Juubito blitzed Hashirama, Tobirama, cut Minato's arm before he could teleport (which requires just the thought), blitzed KCM Naruto and Sasuke.



Madara was faster than Obito before the addition of the Jūbi (and Madara even received more chakra than Obito), so it's reasonable to assume he's faster and more than capable of replicating those feats.

He even did that with Minato, but better. Minato couldn't jump away from Madara.

And that was all _Pre-Tree. _


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## Lurko (May 15, 2014)

Only Sasuke and Madara and people above them can beat him now.


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## tkpirate (May 15, 2014)

Naruto will spam his Bijuu dama Rasenshurikens,and destroy half of the planet,but in the end he will lose.


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## Lurko (May 15, 2014)

Why's that? Senjustu will be involved aka bye bye Obito.


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## SubtleObscurantist (May 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Naruto's opponent is currently far above Obito ever was.



Now that Madara has regained his other eye, yes, that's absolutely true. But he also has proven capable of occupying both Naruto and Sasuke without engaging them himself. I actually don't think that Madara without Gedou Dama or his other Rinnegan is that far above Obito. 


> You claim the reason that Pre-Tree Madara lost to Naruto is because he was injured, but Madara himself used that same excuse. He then retracted that statement because it wasn't the actual reason.



Eh? Madara said that before Naruto got the better of him in that exchange, merely because Naruto was able to pin him with his speed and strength. Again, while Madara was still injured and surprised and without any Gedou Dama but one. But that wasn't some sort of admission of Naruto's superiority. 


> Dodging Limbo is better than any of Obito's speed feats,



Uh, no, it's not. That's basically just dodging Madara, who hasn't even used Shunshin since becoming a Jinchuuruki, which is really no better than blitzing KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke as a speed feat. 





> and stamina wise Naruto has all of the bijū. Obito was missing the final two



Uh, no, Naruto has half of Kurama's power and small pieces of the other nine Bijuu. Obito had the full power of the first seven Bijuu, a small piece of Gyuki's power, and a likely somewhat larger but still small piece of Kurama's power. Naruto's non-Bijuu chakra very likely greater at this point, but overall he only has a small fraction of the Juubi's power. Plus, keep in mind that the Juubi itself seems to have more power than than of the nine Bijuu combined since it's power is considered "immeasurable" and it only increased it's power more after it first was reborn.


----------



## Lurko (May 15, 2014)

Seriously I don't see what Obito can do to Naruto, Naruto was owning Pre tree Juubi Madara in Ksm bascially and Madara confirmed it.


----------



## ueharakk (May 15, 2014)

blk said:


> To the people saying that Juubito isn't enough: what exactly puts Naruto above him?


portrayal puts Naruto far above him.  Beating pre-shinjuu absorption JJ Madara in base puts him above Juubito.  






blk said:


> Juubito has greater firepower, more chakra (cause of Juubi), probably similar durability and similar regen (and with this i'm being generous to Naruto, since he didn't shown any regeneration feat that is on the same level of Juubi's Jins feats, as far as i remember).
> Their speed should be roughly equal since both use Juubi-quality chakra (Naruto has a part of the chakra of all the Bijuu) for the shunshin.
> 
> This is not even a matter of Naruto being a bad match-up for Juubito, considering that they have pratically the same moveset (black balls that disintegrate stuff and nullify ninjutsu and attacks with huge AoE, such as Juubidamas and the latest kind of FRS).
> ...


It's not fair to evaluate Naruto or Sasuke by feats since they are in the process of displaying what they can do thus feats would only show the lower limits of their capabilities.  

but even with that said, Juubito may have displayed more firepower than Naruto, but it took him a whole chapter in order to actually fire it off blindly.  BSM Naruto was able to land a bijuudama on Juubito's onmyouton and it destroyed a bunch of the black stuff, all current naruto has to do is land a bijuudama rasenshuriken on the black stuff and juubito is a goner.  

Plus unlike naruto's attacks, juubito's juubidamas aren't made of senjutsu so naruto just erases them blocks them with onmyouton.


----------



## Kai (May 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Plus unlike naruto's attacks, juubito's juubidamas aren't made of senjutsu so naruto just erases them blocks them with onmyouton.


To be fair, not taking into consideration Naruto's other abilities, an actual Juubi Jinchuuriki's Gudodamas should be more powerful than Naruto's


----------



## ueharakk (May 15, 2014)

Kai said:


> To be fair, not taking into consideration Naruto's other abilities, an actual Juubi Jinchuuriki's Gudodamas should be more powerful than Naruto's


why is that?  

And even if so, why does it matter how 'powerful' they are when they erase ninjutsu?


----------



## Rocky (May 15, 2014)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> I actually don't think that Madara without Gedou Dama or his other Rinnegan is that far above Obito.



Uh, why? He was pretty far above him before both of them absorbed the Ten Tails, and Madara absorbed more chakra. 



> Eh? Madara said that before Naruto got the better of him in that exchange, merely because Naruto was able to pin him with his speed and strength.



My point exactly.

Then he went ahead and cut the God Tree in half,  leaving a giant gash in Madara.



> Uh, no, it's not. That's basically just dodging Madara, who hasn't even used Shunshin since becoming a Jinchuuruki, which is really no better than blitzing KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke as a speed feat.



We actually didn't see if the limbo clone attempted to flicker punch Naruto. 

Though that wasn't really my point. Naruto didn't even see Madara yet his body moved, and Naruto couldn't even tell why. It's a crazy sensing feat.

Avoiding Madara's Liimbo itself is a speed feat on par with any of Obito's, but Naruto's insane reflexes put him above.



> Uh, no, Naruto has half of Kurama's power and small pieces of the other nine Bijuu.



This is the second time I've seen this. Was this actually said somewhere? I don't remember.



> Plus, keep in mind that the Juubi itself seems to have more power than than of the nine Bijuu combined since it's power is considered "immeasurable" and it only increased it's power more after it first was reborn.



All the Jūbi is is the power of the nine bijū combined.


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## Kai (May 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> why is that?
> 
> And even if so, why does it matter how 'powerful' they are when they erase ninjutsu?


How do you figure the Gudodama are ninjutsu?


----------



## ueharakk (May 15, 2014)

Kai said:


> How do you figure the Gudodama are ninjutsu?


What does that have to do with the post you quoted?


----------



## Lurko (May 15, 2014)

Naruto could arguably beat post Shinju Madara with the one eye before Kamui or the other rinnegan,  I don't see why people believe Naruto wouldn't beat Obito.


----------



## Kai (May 15, 2014)

Sorry misread, you said bijuudamas. I thought you said Naruto would block/erase a Juubi's Jin Gudodamas with his own Gudodamas.


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## Jak N Blak (May 15, 2014)

Numbers...
Will NEVER be an issue for Naruto.


----------



## Arles Celes (May 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> why is that?
> 
> And even if so, why does it matter how 'powerful' they are when they erase ninjutsu?



Isn't Juubito using Six Path Sage Mode like Madara?

In such a case he should be able to damage those who nullify ninjutsu.


----------



## Trojan (May 15, 2014)

I really don't think that the other characters are as useless as most of people here think they are. @>@
a little help from mostly "blind" kakashi, Gaara, and armless Minato cost Madara to lost a great deal of power
and made him unable to defend himself. 

If those three in a better condition than they were, and did the same thing to Naruto for example (talking all of his Gedu-damas) that WILL make a different especially with people like obito, and 8th gates Gai around. @.@

@Arles Celes

I think madara is able to do so because he stole Hashi's SM in the first place, but I could be wrong
since even Sasuke seems to have it as well. @>@


----------



## ueharakk (May 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I really don't think that the other characters are as useless as most of people here think they are. @>@
> a little help from mostly "blind" kakashi, Gaara, and armless Minato cost Madara to lost a great deal of power
> and made him unable to defend himself.


rinbou takes care of them...



Hussain said:


> If those three in a better condition than they were, and did the same thing to Naruto for example (talking all of his Gedu-damas) that WILL make a different especially with people like obito, and 8th gates Gai around. @.@


how will they be able to do anything when they'd individually have a hell of a time beating a KCM bunshin let alone KSM/BM/BSM/'base'/RSM bunshins?


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## Trojan (May 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> rinbou takes care of them...
> 
> 
> how will they be able to do anything when they'd individually have a hell of a time beating a KCM bunshin let alone KSM/BM/BSM/'base'/RSM bunshins?



- What is "rinbou"? @>@
- Naruto is only limited to 4 clones here. @>@


----------



## blk (May 15, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Seriously I don't see what Obito can do to Naruto, Naruto was owning Pre tree Juubi Madara in Ksm bascially and Madara confirmed it.



1) Juubito is stronger than an unprepared Madara that has just one black sphere.

2) Naruto didn't do any significant damage to Madara.



Rocky said:


> So does Naruto.
> 
> So far he's interacted with them more so than Madara, so again, what makes you say that? Naruto has literally spoken with Son, Shukaku, and Kurama.
> 
> He hasn't, but neither has Madara, and both him and Naruto have the power of the bijū that Obito does.



Again, Naruto only has a small part of the Bijuus chakra.

You can see in this page that Madara absorbed all of them into the Gedo [1], while Naruto has only received a small part of the chakra of each Bijuu (except for Kurama's half) [2 ; 3 ; 4].
Madara hasn't interacted with the Bijuu because they seem to be in an unconscious state [5]. And it's not like he has any reason for interact with them.

To further expand on this, it is already confirmed by the Juubito case that one doesn't need all the power of the Bijuu in order to utilize the black spheres and achieve the Rikudo-like form. The most probable hypothesis is that you just need at least a part of the chakra of every Bijuu in order to unlock those things.


For second, it is confirmed by the Kurama case that just a part of the chakra of a Bijuu can develop its own consciousness and can regenerate its own chakra (but without exceed the maximum amount, i.e if half of Kurama has 50 units of chakra it can only regenerate up to those 50 units).

For last, it is pretty clear that the Juubi's power is _far_ greater than the power of the 9 Bijuu divided.
Just look at this page [6], i don't recall the individual Bijuu (even all togheter) having any visible effect on the chakra sphere (that i suppose shows the various concentrations of chakra present on the planet).
Infact, to create the Juubi you need the Gedo aswell (not just the chakra of the Bijuus) and surely it has effects on the final product: this is a case of the whole being greater than the parts.

Therefore, the fact that Naruto has the black spheres, speaks with the Bijuu and uses their chakra (without worrying that it will run out) isn't evidence that he possesses the same power of Juubito and Juubidara.




> What makes you say that?
> 
> Madara was faster than Obito before the addition of the Jūbi (and Madara even received more chakra than Obito), so it's reasonable to assume he's faster and more than capable of replicating those feats.
> 
> ...



Even though i don't think that speed simply adds up like that, i can accept the notion that Madara is a bit faster than Juubito.
Though, a little difference in speed isn't game changing. 

Being Pre-Tree or post means nothing, Madara already had almost all of the power of the Bijuu.



> Oh.
> 
> You're right, Naruto's never shown regeneration like that. That's because he hasn't been injured. Considering he can create eyeballs and even reverse the  effects of the 8th Gate with a mere touch, I'm not ruling out self regeneration. Though I could be wrong.



Of course, i admit that it is likely that Naruto has a very good self-regenerative power, but without an appropriate feat i simply cannot assume that he can regenerate half of his body like nothing (as the Juubi Jins did/can do).






ueharakk said:


> portrayal puts Naruto far above him. Beating pre-shinjuu absorption JJ Madara in base puts him above Juubito.



Your interpretation of the portrayal means nothing to me. I see Juubito as being portrayed stronger than anyone bar Juubidara with the Rinnegan, full power Hagoromo and Kaguya.

"Beating" an unprepared Madara with just one black orb, without doing any significant damage, doesn't put anyone above Juubito.



> It's not fair to evaluate Naruto or Sasuke by feats since they are in the process of displaying what they can do thus feats would only show the lower limits of their capabilities.
> 
> but even with that said, Juubito may have displayed more firepower than Naruto, but it took him a whole chapter in order to actually fire it off blindly.  BSM Naruto was able to land a bijuudama on Juubito's onmyouton and it destroyed a bunch of the black stuff, all current naruto has to do is land a bijuudama rasenshuriken on the black stuff and juubito is a goner.
> 
> Plus unlike naruto's attacks, juubito's juubidamas aren't made of senjutsu so naruto just erases them blocks them with onmyouton.



I don't care about fairness, give me more feats and i'll add them to the evaluation.

Juubito could have fired the Juubidamas before, just by charging them less than he did.

When was the black stuff destroyed? I don't remember.
Also, consider that the black stuff can't simply be destroyed, since it can rearrange itself in the form that the user wants.

Juubito himself, without the black stuff, can probably tank a bijuu RS and regenerate.
So, even if the black stuff is destroyed Juubito will be fine (also because a much weaker force will hit him).

I'm pretty sure that the Juubi's chakra is, in part, made of natural energy; in this case Juubito has Senjutsu by default.


----------



## Bonly (May 15, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Well, as you can see kishi made them (Naruto, Sasuke, and madara) insanely powerful, and we haven't even seen his full power yet.
> 
> so, other than Sasuke, Madara, Kaguya and her family, is it possible to defeat current Naruto?
> 
> ...



No, it's highly unlikely that anyone else can beat current Naruto. If they can't have any of the listed on a team then the best they could do is have Obito and Gai(Dai as well in scenario two) and hope that would be enough to overwhelm Naruto but they might not be enough either.


----------



## Rocky (May 15, 2014)

blk said:


> Again, Naruto only has a small part of the Bijuus chakra.



Interesting, but I'm not convinced.



There they are, all nine bijū. Naruto's conversation obviously isn't taking place inside of Madara, so until the above is explained, I'm not conceding Naruto having only a small part of them. He's got all of them, which is more power than even Madara.



> Even though i don't think that speed simply adds up like that, i can accept the notion that Madara is a bit faster than Juubito.
> Though, a little difference in speed isn't game changing.



...and where do you believe Naruto's speed falls?



> Being Pre-Tree or post means nothing, Madara already had almost all of the power of the Bijuu.



The power of the Shinju means nothing? So why did it restore him and give him a third eye?


----------



## blk (May 15, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Interesting, but I'm not convinced.
> 
> 
> 
> There they are, all nine bijū. Naruto's conversation obviously isn't taking place inside of Madara, so until the above is explained, I'm not conceding Naruto having only a small part of them. He's got all of them, which is more power than even Madara.



I've already elaborated on the fact that the chakra of a Bijuu can develop its own consciousness. Heck, for what we know Obito might have just took away from Madara the conscious part of the Bijuus.

So, that is nothing more than a rapresentation within Naruto's mind.

Last thing, i've already provided evidences that show that the parts are <<< the whole in the Juubi's case.
Even if Naruto has all of them (which is very clearly not the case), having the Juubi provides far more power.



> ...and where do you believe Naruto's speed falls?



We haven't seen Naruto deal with Madara's shunshin, but i think it's safe to assume that Naruto has a similar speed.
So, assuming that Madara has this (small) advantage of speed over Juubito, Naruto will aswell.



> The power of the Shinju means nothing? So why did it restore him and give him a third eye?



Restore? Madara had no injury that couldn't be easily healed by the regeneration that he always had as a Juubi Jin.
The third eye appears when someone with the power of the Rinnegan comes near the moon [1] (i'm using manga stream because manga panda is a bit confusing about this).

I guess that the Shinju did increment a bit his chakra, but that's it.


----------



## ueharakk (May 15, 2014)

blk said:


> Your interpretation of the portrayal means nothing to me. I see Juubito as being portrayed stronger than anyone bar Juubidara with the Rinnegan, full power Hagoromo and Kaguya.
> 
> "Beating" an unprepared Madara with just one black orb, without doing any significant damage, doesn't put anyone above Juubito.


The very fact that you left out Naruto did all that without powering up, did that while simultaneously slicing the shinjuu in half, and claim that naruto didn't do any significant damage despite madara shown almost cut in half from the youton rasenshuriken shows how unsupported your counterargument is and how compelling my own is.






blk said:


> *I don't care about fairness,* give me more feats and i'll add them to the evaluation.


Well, if you don't care about evaluating characters fairly, then I don't see why anyone should take your posts seriously.



blk said:


> Juubito could have fired the Juubidamas before, just by charging them less than he did.


Show me the feats.  Can he aim them at people?  Naruto just cuts off the tree before they are charged, or dodges the bijuudamas, or blocks the explosion with onmyouton, or simply blitzes obito with a bijuurasenshuriken considering he can land a youton rasenshuriken on a more powerful madara while in base.



blk said:


> When was the black stuff destroyed? I don't remember.
> Also, consider that the black stuff can't simply be destroyed, since it can rearrange itself in the form that the user wants.


destroyed *here *  The black stuff doesn't rearrange itself once it's destroyed.



blk said:


> Juubito himself, without the black stuff, can probably tank a bijuu RS and regenerate.
> So, even if the black stuff is destroyed Juubito will be fine (also because a much weaker force will hit him).


*What in the hell makes you* *think Juubito tanks* *a SM FRS let alone a senpou bijuudama rasenshuriken?*



blk said:


> I'm pretty sure that the Juubi's chakra is, in part, made of natural energy; in this case Juubito has Senjutsu by default.


It isn't, else Juubito wouldn't have been able to block the quad bijuudama with an onmyouton shield with zero effort while a normal sized senpou bijuudama from naruto destroys his onmyouton.

Plus if you want to give juubito stuff that he hasn't shown in the manga, then you'd give naruto stuff as well.


----------



## Rocky (May 15, 2014)

blk said:


> I've already elaborated on the fact that the chakra of a Bijuu can develop its own consciousness. Heck, for what we know Obito might have just took away from Madara the conscious part of the Bijuus.



Even if, you keep saying Naruto has fragments of their chakra. That scan displays the nine bijū in their entirety, not the floating heads that represented fragments. 



> So, that is nothing more than a rapresentation within Naruto's mind.



What does that mean?



> Last thing, i've already provided evidences that show that the parts are <<< the whole in the Juubi's case.
> Even if Naruto has all of them (which is very clearly not the case), having the Juubi provides far more power.



...power of the nine bijū combined= Jūbi. Naruto has the former, and Madara the latter, but they are the same power...which is why they have the same abilities. 



> We haven't seen Naruto deal with Madara's shunshin, but i think it's safe to assume that Naruto has a similar speed.
> So, assuming that Madara has this (small) advantage of speed over Juubito, Naruto will aswell.



Which would give Naruto a slight advantage in movement speed. However, Naruto's sensing abilities give him a large advantage in reflexes. Obito would basically be incapable of hurting Naruto.



> Restore? Madara had no injury that couldn't be easily healed by the regeneration that he always had as a Juubi Jin.



It didn't just restore injuries. It completely refreshed him, even his headband.


----------



## blk (May 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> The very fact that you left out Naruto did all that without powering up, did that while simultaneously slicing the shinjuu in half, and claim that naruto didn't do any significant damage despite madara shown almost cut in half from the youton rasenshuriken shows how unsupported your counterargument is and how compelling my own is.



Since Madara can easily regenerate from "almost being cut in half", i don't consider it to be a significant damage.
Juubito has shown greater firepower than the YRS, i'm not sure how being able to cut the tree means being portrayed as stronger.

Madara was unprepared and had only one black sphere; Juubito is stronger than such a version.

The fact that he was in base is almost irrelevant, even in his stronger form he hasn't shown anything that is far above to what Juubito has shown.




> Well, if you don't care about evaluating characters fairly, then I don't see why anyone should take your posts seriously.



I consider fair to evaluate characters with the feats (and all of their implications) they have.
What i don't care about is what you consider fair.




> Show me the feats.  Can he aim them at people?  Naruto just cuts off the tree before they are charged, or dodges the bijuudamas, or blocks the explosion with onmyouton, or simply blitzes obito with a bijuurasenshuriken considering he can land a youton rasenshuriken on a more powerful madara while in base.



While he controlled the Juubi he made smaller Juubidamas. Though, the fact that he has the chakra and the concentration to make several huge Juubidamas is an already strong enough evidence for claim that he can also make smaller Juubidamas.

He won't be able to dodge the explosion if the dama is launched in the ground.

Naruto cannot blitz Juubito.

Any kind of rasenshuriken is tanked by the black stuff.



> destroyed *here * *The black stuff doesn't rearrange itself once it's destroyed.*



Ok.

Need evidences for the bold.
A bunch of pieces temporarily falling (or were they floating? considering that there is a "flap" thing) isn't a very good evidence.

Also, in the following pages the spheres don't seem to have decreased in size [1 ; 2 ; 3].



> *What in the hell makes you* *think Juubito tanks* *a SM FRS let alone a senpou bijuudama rasenshuriken?*



Yeah, the word "tank" was a bad choice.
What i meant is that Juubito can survive to the attack and then regenerate.



> It isn't, else Juubito wouldn't have been able to block the quad bijuudama with an onmyouton shield with zero effort while a normal sized senpou bijuudama from naruto destroys his onmyouton.
> 
> Plus if you want to give juubito stuff that he hasn't shown in the manga, then you'd give naruto stuff as well.



It is stated right here [4] that the Juubi _is_ natural energy.

Juubito probably rearranged his black stuff after the explosion (he wasn't shown immediatly after it).




Rocky said:


> Even if, you keep saying Naruto has fragments of their chakra. That scan displays the nine bijū in their entirety, not the floating heads that represented fragments.
> 
> What does that mean?



This is getting absurd.
Some page before _the Bijuu themselves_ clearly state that he has only parts of their chakra (on top of all the others statements and evidences in general).

It means that they are in Naruto's mind, therefore he can see them with the form he wants.



> ...power of the nine bijū combined= Jūbi. Naruto has the former, and Madara the latter, but they are the same power...which is why they have the same abilities.



Are you even reading my responses?
Address the fact that the Juubi's chakra was comparable to another planet, while the Bijuu's chakra never had any visible effect on the chakra sphere.
And again, you are leaving Gedo Mazo out of the equation while it is a very important part of it.

I have already provided evidences that show why not having the total amount of the Bijuu chakra doesn't make one unable to unlock the black spheres. Infact, every single character that unlocked those spheres didn't have the full amount of chakra of the Bijuu.



> Which would give Naruto a slight advantage in movement speed. However, Naruto's sensing abilities give him a large advantage in reflexes. Obito would basically be incapable of hurting Naruto.



If Juubito shoots a juubidama at the ground, Naruto won't be able to avoid the explosion.



> It didn't just restore injuries. It completely refreshed him, even his headband.



Madara's clothes are part of his body (like Juubito's "clothes"), as shown by the fact that he was regenerating them [1].
There are no reasons why he can't regenerate his headband.


----------



## Rocky (May 15, 2014)

blk said:


> This is getting absurd.
> Some page before _the Bijuu themselves_ clearly state that he has only parts of their chakra (on top of all the others statements and evidences in general)/



I didn't know this.

Can you provide that scan?



> Address the fact that the Juubi's chakra was comparable to another planet, while the Bijuu's chakra never had any visible effect on the chakra sphere.
> And again, you are leaving Gedo Mazo out of the equation while it is a very important part of it.



When had the chakra of the bijū been combined before the Jūbi appeared? The Gedo statue is just a shell. Its power comes from the bijū themselves.  



> If Juubito shoots a juubidama at the ground, Naruto won't be able to avoid the explosion.



Turtle up in the Gudō-shield? the same way Jūbito survives.


----------



## ueharakk (May 15, 2014)

blk said:


> Since Madara can easily regenerate from "almost being cut in half", i don't consider it to be a significant damage.


madara easily regenerated from Night Gai, despite saying he almost died from that attack, being able to easily regenerate from something means jack about it being significant damage.



blk said:


> Juubito has shown greater firepower than the YRS, i'm not sure how being able to cut the tree means being portrayed as stronger.


that has nothing to do with portrayal.

Naruto did that in base while simultaneously almost cutting madara in half while dodging rinbou and required almost no prep.



blk said:


> Madara was unprepared and had only one black sphere; Juubito is stronger than such a version.


What do you mean 'unprepared'?  Based on what is juubito stronger than that version?  



blk said:


> The fact that he was in base is almost irrelevant, even in his stronger form he hasn't shown anything that is far above to what Juubito has shown.


That's a feat based argument, portrayal isn't about feats, it's about performance against shinobi.  Also, are you asserting RSM Naruto isn't significantly stronger than the 'base' naruto who fought JJ Madara?




blk said:


> I consider fair to evaluate characters with the feats (and all of their implications) they have.
> What i don't care about is what you consider fair.


Then again, no one should take your evaluations seriously, as they are simply biased towards characters who have had more screen time than others.  

Second, in a discussion, you HAVE to 'care about' what someone else considers a fair evaluation, since if what they consider is fair is actually true, then it would mean that your methods of evaluation are fallacious and do not lead to plausible conclusions.  

And although you say that that's how you evaluate your arguments, you don't considering you put rinnegan Madara above SM Hashirama and allow madara the ability to use things like senpou shinsuusenjuu despite never showing mokuton on the level of hashirama's mokujin, let alone shinsuusenjuu.  





blk said:


> He won't be able to dodge the explosion if the dama is launched in the ground.


neither would juubito, they'd both block the explosion with onmyouton.  



blk said:


> Naruto cannot blitz Juubito.


based on...... base naruto almost blitzing madara? 



blk said:


> Any kind of rasenshuriken is tanked by the black stuff.


Based on....the black stuff getting destroyed by a normal senpou bijuudama?




blk said:


> Need evidences for the bold.
> A bunch of pieces temporarily falling (or were they floating? considering that there is a "flap" thing) isn't a very good evidence.


If the pieces rearranged themselves, then they wouldn't even be falling, we'd see them rearrange themselves.  The burden of proof is on you to show that when the black stuff is destroyed it does rearrange itself.



blk said:


> Also, in the following pages the spheres don't seem to have decreased in size [1 ; 2 ; 3]


It's not about the spheres decreasing in size, it's about the number of spheres decreasing.  Obito starts out with 10 spheres.  We only see 9 in the last scan (7 orbs + the 2 in his hands).




blk said:


> Yeah, the word "tank" was a bad choice.
> What i meant is that Juubito can survive to the attack and then regenerate.


HOW!?  He gets a hole in his back from a normal-sized sennin mode naruto rasengan.  He gets sliced in half by mini kyuusanoo.  A senpou FRS is more powerful than 25 SM Chou oodama  rasengans.  Youton FRS is even stronger than that, and bijuudama rasengan is the most powerful attack we've seen naruto ever perform, how is Juubito going to survive anything above a senpou FRS when he gets a hole in his back from a senpou rasengan?




blk said:


> It is stated right here [4] that the Juubi _is_ natural energy.
> 
> *Juubito probably rearranged his black stuff after the explosion (he wasn't shown immediatly after it).*


 Natural energy isn't senjutsu, natural energy is combined with chakra in order to _create_ senjutsu.
In addition to that the juubi's bijuudamas aren't natural energy as they distort the chakra sensing sphere which detects chakra.

The bolded just shows the kind of ridiculous conclusions you have to necessarily assert in order for your argument to be true.  

Why in the world would obito rearrange the black stuff around him after the explosion *only to then remove it?*

A normal juubidama is magnitudes beyond magnitudes more powerful than a normal bijuudama.  A super bijuudama is magnitudes beyond a normal juubidama, and you're telling me that juubito sustained zero damage from a quad juubidama blast when his face gets exposed when a senpou bijuudama hits his shield?


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## Lurko (May 15, 2014)

Boy these blog of text I don't like but to call Jubbito stronger than Jubbidara regardless of the fact Jubbito has more orbs is dumb, to say no difference in power between post and pre tree asorbitoon is the dumbest thing I've seen in a while.


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## tkpirate (May 16, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Why's that? Senjustu will be involved aka bye bye Obito.



well,there are two 8th gate users,Hashirama and Kakashi with Kamui,with Naruto's current feats,shinobi world will win with high difficulty.but once we see his next transformation and his megazord,he should win.


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## Lurko (May 16, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> well,there are two 8th gate users,Hashirama and Kakashi with Kamui,with Naruto's current feats,shinobi world will win with high difficulty.but once we see his next transformation and his megazord,he should win.



Hashi and company are fodder, even the two 8 gate users are.. Jubbito is the only problem here.


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## blk (May 16, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I didn't know this.
> 
> Can you provide that scan?



Here [1 ; 2 ; 3].



> When had the chakra of the bijū been combined before the Jūbi appeared? The Gedo statue is just a shell. Its power comes from the bijū themselves.



For example, in the fight between Obito and Naruto when the latter developed the BM.



> Turtle up in the Gudō-shield? the same way Jūbito survives.



Of course he can, i was just saying that he can't avoid it.





ueharakk said:


> madara easily regenerated from Night Gai, despite saying he almost died from that attack, being able to easily regenerate from something means jack about it being significant damage.



Gai's last attack caused much more damage than Naruto's attack.
Considering that Juubito was able to easily survive and regenerate after being cut in half, i don't see how being _almost_ cut in half is a significant damage.



> that has nothing to do with portrayal.
> 
> Naruto did that in base while simultaneously almost cutting madara in half while dodging rinbou and required almost no prep.



You are using a destructive feat of Naruto in order to support his portrayal, why can't i do the same with Juubito.



> What do you mean 'unprepared'?  Based on what is juubito stronger than that version?
> 
> That's a feat based argument, portrayal isn't about feats, it's about performance against shinobi.  Also, are you asserting RSM Naruto isn't significantly stronger than the 'base' naruto who fought JJ Madara?



Juubito with all of the black spheres is stronger than a Madara with just one of them and one Rinnegan.

Unprepared in the sense that Madara was in a bad position when Naruto attacked him. He was completely open, had just one black orb and despite that Naruto's punch was blocked.

Performance against shinobi pretty much comes down to feats. I never stated that RSM isn't stronger than his base form.



> Then again, no one should take your evaluations seriously, as they are simply biased towards characters who have had more screen time than others.
> 
> Second, in a discussion, you HAVE to 'care about' what someone else considers a fair evaluation, since if what they consider is fair is actually true, then it would mean that your methods of evaluation are fallacious and do not lead to plausible conclusions.
> 
> And although you say that that's how you evaluate your arguments, you don't considering you put rinnegan Madara above SM Hashirama and allow madara the ability to use things like senpou shinsuusenjuu despite never showing mokuton on the level of hashirama's mokujin, let alone shinsuusenjuu.



I think it's better to limit yourself to things that characters have shown, or to things that is implied that they can do.

It was stated that Madara has Hashirama's Mokuton (and he also shown a mokuton jutsu that i generally consider to be above mokujin, which is flower world), the only thing that he lacked was SM. With it there are no reasons for why he can't use every jutsu that Hashirama has. Heck, even spiral Zetsu, a mere mokuton clone created by Madara, can use a version of shinsuusenjuu.



> based on...... base naruto almost blitzing madara?



Madara blocked the punch (while being in an uncomfortable situation), there was no "almost blitz".



> Based on....the black stuff getting destroyed by a normal senpou bijuudama?



Only little pieces were destroyed.



> If the pieces rearranged themselves, then they wouldn't even be falling, we'd see them rearrange themselves.  The burden of proof is on you to show that when the black stuff is destroyed it does rearrange itself.
> 
> 
> It's not about the spheres decreasing in size, it's about the number of spheres decreasing.  Obito starts out with 10 spheres.  We only see 9 in the last scan (7 orbs + the 2 in his hands).



The shape shifting of the black stuff is an active process, Juubito might have just rearranged them shortly after. And again, the "flap" text seems suspicious, perhaps it means that the pieces are floating and not falling.

I'm counting 7 black orbs in total.
Anyway, Juubito might have used more than 2 orbs in order to create those shields.



> HOW!?  He gets a hole in his back from a normal-sized sennin mode naruto rasengan.  He gets sliced in half by mini kyuusanoo.  A senpou FRS is more powerful than 25 SM Chou oodama  rasengans.  Youton FRS is even stronger than that, and bijuudama rasengan is the most powerful attack we've seen naruto ever perform, how is Juubito going to survive anything above a senpou FRS when he gets a hole in his back from a senpou rasengan?



It definetly depends on how Juubito is hit.
If just a part of the jutsu hit him, like with Madara, and it has to pass through the black stuff before that, i can see Juubito surviving to it.

Juubito can also cover himself with chakra arms in order to provide further defensive capabilities.

And it's not like he can't simply dodge the attack (so that at best only part of the explosion will hit him).



> Natural energy isn't senjutsu, natural energy is combined with chakra in order to _create_ senjutsu.
> In addition to that the juubi's bijuudamas aren't natural energy as they distort the chakra sensing sphere which detects chakra.
> 
> The bolded just shows the kind of ridiculous conclusions you have to necessarily assert in order for your argument to be true.
> ...



Chakra is created with physical and spiritual energy, if you add to that natural energy it becomes senjutsu.
Juubito has chakra and natural energy (coming from the Juubi), so the jutsu he uses are made of senjutsu.

The Juubi itself distorts the chakra sensing sphere, and it is full of natural energy.
In addition, Madara mentions in this pages that the "rikudo-mode" is a senjutsu [1 ; 2].

I don't think that the hole in the shield was caused by the Bijuudama, since the pieces are a lot smaller than that. Juubito probably opened it a bit in order to speak to Naruto.

I don't see what's so strange about Juubito putting the pieces togheter with the shield shortly before deactivating it.

Moreover, even if the Juubidama weren't made of senjutsu the problem still remains, considering that the pure mechanical and thermal energy that is released by a normal Juubidama is magnitudes above Gai's punches; yet the latter was able to break the black stuff by punching Madara through it.


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## tkpirate (May 16, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Hashi and company are fodder, even the two 8 gate users are.. Jubbito is the only problem here.



if this was a OBD fight,then yes Hashi would have been a fodder to Naruto.but how much hype Kishi has given him,i don't think Hashi would be a fodder to current Naruto.also Gai in 8th gate was dominating Madara(though with PIS).they wouldn't defeat Naruto,but should cause some problems.


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## Icegaze (May 16, 2014)

naruto throws bijuudama FRS twice and everyone dies. considering how easy it was for him to use it he can probably spam it and even add regular bijuudama's. naruto can fight goku now lol


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## Lurko (May 16, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> if this was a OBD fight,then yes Hashi would have been a fodder to Naruto.but how much hype Kishi has given him,i don't think Hashi would be a fodder to current Naruto.also Gai in 8th gate was dominating Madara(though with PIS).they wouldn't defeat Naruto,but should cause some problems.



No it's not just an obd fight Naruto,  Sasuke and Madara are on a completely different level now, Hashi can't do shit to any of them c'mon man!


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## Rocky (May 16, 2014)

blk said:


> Here [1 ; 2 ; 3].



After Naruto receives pieces (2-7 from before, 1, 8, and 9 from Obito), Kurama tells Hagoromo that the "time has come". Rikudō then _calls them forward_ and they appear. Something..happened there.

Even if I'm wrong here, Naruto still has the actual power of Rikudō, and Obito most definitely does not.


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## Trojan (May 16, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> naruto throws bijuudama FRS twice and everyone dies. considering how easy it was for him to use it he can probably spam it and even add regular bijuudama's. naruto can fight goku now lol



What stop them from teleporting it though? 
Minato with his S/T barrier.
Kakashi with his Kamui

and Obito's TBBs are also stronger than Naruto's TBBRS. 

As I said previously, just because the others are far weaker than he is, does not make them completely useless. It's depends on how they will use their jutsus and their "teamwork" so to speak. 

Naruto has batter firepower than they do (perhaps other than obito?) but his jutsus can still b dealt with via the teleportation jutsus. 

and since Gai almost killed madara by himself, it shouldn't be taken lightly that he and his father
are here and both can use the 8th gates. As strong as Naruto is, I don't think he is that far above madara who fought Gai. 

Rocky

Naruto has only a small amount of their chakra, not the entire thing, unless you believe that madara is the one who has small amount of their
chakra or has none (since they will be completely with Naruto according to you?) 

as for obito it was stated that he has the same power as the sage as well. Even though I think that's an exaggeration from his part since he was
lacking 2 of the Bijuus. (most of their power at least)


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## blk (May 16, 2014)

Rocky said:


> After Naruto receives pieces (2-7 from before, 1, 8, and 9 from Obito), Kurama tells Hagoromo that the "time has come". Rikudō then _calls them forward_ and they appear. Something..happened there.
> 
> Even if I'm wrong here, Naruto still has the actual power of Rikudō, and Obito most definitely does not.



I don't understand what is the problem.
That is easily explainable by the fact that Naruto has the conscious part of the chakra of the Bijuu (which is the thing i think is most likely) or by the fact that the chakra of a Bijuu can develop its own consciousness. We have evidences for both of those possibilities.

That fact that we see their entire body is, again, explainable by virtue of being into Naruto's mind.
Just look at when Naruto TNJ'd Juubito, there were 3 other Juubitos and the entire shinobi army; but we know that was something that was just inside their brain, nothing more.
Therefore, we have evidences also for this possibility.

On the other hand, i don't see any evidence for the interpretation that the 9 Bijuu in their entirety are suddenly within Naruto. Infact, this is outright contradicted by the fact that Madara has them inside him (and he literally absorbed them on-panel).

Neither Juubito nor Naruto have the power of the sage, what they have is just part of it (if we consider the Juubi to be part of Rikudo's power).
Neither has the Rinnegan and neither has the full amount of the chakra of the Bijuu (however, Juubito has a lot more than Naruto).


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## Trojan (May 16, 2014)

Minato sealed only a small part of his and Kushina's chakra inside Naruto, yet they appeared to him with their
entire body and communicated with him.


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## Rocky (May 16, 2014)

blk said:


> Neither Juubito nor Naruto have the power of the sage, what they have is just part of it (if we consider the Juubi to be part of Rikudo's power).
> Neither has the Rinnegan and neither has the full amount of the chakra of the Bijuu (however, Juubito has a lot more than Naruto).



I'm not talking about the bijū. Rikūdo's power is more than just the bijū and Rinnegan. Sasuke has it too; Rikūdo's power that is, along with his Rinnegan. He has it along with the Rinnegan. Where do you think that Black Chidori came from? Why do you think they're so fast and strong?

Rikūdo has his own abilities, and they have nothing to do with the Ten-Tails. He gifted Naruto and Sasuke that, while Madara's power is from the Jūbi.


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## blk (May 16, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I'm not talking about the bijū. Rikūdo's power is more than just the bijū and Rinnegan. Sasuke has it too; Rikūdo's power that is, along with his Rinnegan. He has it along with the Rinnegan. Where do you think that Black Chidori came from? Why do you think they're so fast and strong?
> 
> Rikūdo has his own abilities, and they have nothing to do with the Ten-Tails. He gifted Naruto and Sasuke that, while Madara's power is from the Jūbi.



Ah, so you meant the power symbolized by the thing in their hands; in that case i agree, Juubito definetly doesn't have that power.

This doesn't change anything else, though.


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## ueharakk (May 16, 2014)

blk said:


> *
> Gai's last attack caused much more damage than Naruto's attack.*
> Considering that Juubito was able to easily survive and regenerate after being cut in half, i don't see how being _almost_ cut in half is a significant damage.


You stated that because Madara was able to easily regenerate from Naruto's attack, it wasn't significant damage.  Therefore Gai's last attack causing much more damage than naruto's or juubito being able to easily survive and regening after being cut in half is irrelevant since all those attacks would fall under the category of "easily regenerated from" and thus you'd have to necessarily conclude that Gai's attack didn't significantly damage madara.




blk said:


> You are using a destructive feat of Naruto in order to support his portrayal, why can't i do the same with Juubito.


No i'm not.  I'm using what naruto _accomplished_ with those destructive feats in order to support his portrayal.  




blk said:


> Juubito with all of the black spheres is stronger than a Madara with just one of them and one Rinnegan.


Based on what?



blk said:


> Unprepared in the sense that Madara was in a bad position when Naruto attacked him. He was completely open, had just one black orb and despite that Naruto's punch was blocked.
> 
> Performance against shinobi pretty much comes down to feats. I never stated that RSM isn't stronger than his base form.


would you agree that naruto was shown to be more powerful than that madara?  I never said that you claimed RSM = Base Naruto, I said you were implying that RSM wasn't significantly more powerful than his base form.




blk said:


> I think it's better to limit yourself to things that characters have shown, or to things that is implied that they can do.


I don't think so.  By this logic, you'd conclude that people like Bee could have defeated Hashirama until we saw hashirama pull out shinsuusenjuu considering everything that the manga implied he was capable of up until that point in time could have been dealt with by a single bijuudama.



blk said:


> It was stated that Madara has Hashirama's Mokuton (and he also shown a mokuton jutsu that i generally consider to be above mokujin, which is flower world), the only thing that he lacked was SM. With it there are no reasons for why he can't use every jutsu that Hashirama has. Heck, even spiral Zetsu, a mere mokuton clone created by Madara, can use a version of shinsuusenjuu.


I don't know of anyone who'd consider flower tree world to be above mokujin.  Mokujin is the construct that allows him to fight against things like 100% Kurama and PS.  Heck, Hashirama had a jukai koutan at VoTe that was even larger than FTW, yet he uses mokujin in order to fight Madara and the kyuubi.  Spiral zetsu accomplished a mokujin that could be held in the palm of the real mokujin, and is implied he only did that after absorbing Yamato.  Throughout his 100+ chapters of appearance, madara has many opportunities to use things like mokujin or shinsuusenjuu, yet he never attempts to do so.  




blk said:


> Madara blocked the punch (while being in an uncomfortable situation), there was no "almost blitz".


Sure there is.  An almost blitz is a situation where all the opponent can do is put up a guard against an attack despite the attacker traveling from a distance away.




blk said:


> Only little pieces were destroyed.


The black stuff was destroyed enough that Obito's face was exposed.....  A senpou bijuudama's explosion registers as a tiny pop when compared to the size of the shinjuu.  YRS continued even after cutting the shinjuu in half, bijuudama rasenshuriken produces an explosion that would almost span the roots of the shinjuu.




blk said:


> The shape shifting of the black stuff is an active process, Juubito might have just rearranged them shortly after. And again, the "flap" text seems suspicious, perhaps it means that the pieces are floating and not falling.


Why would flap mean 



blk said:


> I'm counting 7 black orbs in total.
> Anyway, Juubito might have used more than 2 orbs in order to create those shields.


7 orbs plus the 2 orbs that he carries around in his hands, and you can blatantly see that by looking at the black stuff that pierces through his palms and is contributing to the bulk of the shields.  

Sure, Juubito 'might' have used more than 2 orbs just like a gigantic pink rhinocerous 'might' have popped in and out of existence between manga panels, however if you want to assert that that is actually the case, then you have a burden of proof to show that, because I don't have to prove a negative.




blk said:


> It definetly depends on how Juubito is hit.
> If just a part of the jutsu hit him, like with Madara, and it has to pass through the black stuff before that, i can see Juubito surviving to it.


What do you base that on?  What durability feats of the black stuff vs senjutsu would enable it to protect juubito enough that it allows him to survive BRS?



blk said:


> Juubito can also cover himself with chakra arms in order to provide further defensive capabilities.


Those chakra arms couldn't even withstand this giant rasengan, the same rasengan that did less damage to juubito's onmyouton than the senpou bijuudama did.



blk said:


> And it's not like he can't simply dodge the attack (so that at best only part of the explosion will hit him).


How can he dodge that attack when madara can't dodge YRS from base Naruto?  How can he even escape an explosion of such size?




blk said:


> Chakra is created with physical and spiritual energy, if you add to that natural energy it becomes senjutsu.
> Juubito has chakra and natural energy (coming from the Juubi), so the jutsu he uses are made of senjutsu.


No they aren't.  Just having chakra and having natural energy doesn't make senjutsu, you have to perfectly balance them together in order to accomplish that.  



blk said:


> The Juubi itself distorts the chakra sensing sphere, and it is full of natural energy.
> In addition, Madara mentions in this pages that the "rikudo-mode" is a senjutsu [1 ; 2].


Madara stated that he had rikudou senjutsu with that mode, not that absorbing the juubi automatically gives you that power.  Both Madara and Naruto have independent sources of senjutsu: Madara's being Hashirama's senjutsu (which is why madara needed hashirama's senjutsu) and Naruto's being his senjutsu (which is why naruto still shows frog eyes despite that sennin mode not having anything to do with the juubi).



blk said:


> I don't think that the hole in the shield was caused by the Bijuudama, since the pieces are a lot smaller than that. Juubito probably opened it a bit in order to speak to Naruto.


That just means the manga didn't show ALL the pieces that were removed from the hole.  The manga shows pieces of the shield falling, and then a hole in the shield.  What do you think that implies?  If kishi wanted to show Obito opening up the shield on his own, he'd show a complete shield and then obito opening a hole.  



blk said:


> I don't see what's so strange about Juubito putting the pieces togheter with the shield shortly before deactivating it.


Don't waste my time.  It's come to the point where I've backed you into a corner, and you're just grasping for whatever possible alternative explanation you can get your hands on no matter how improbable.  You know I'm right, you know you are wrong, it's just a manga, no one's going to die if you concede an argument. 

Do you think it makes sense for Juubito to get his shield blown away by the explosion, then take the pieces of the shield that were blown away, reform it into a protective sphere around himself despite no other attack being present, and then open the shield back up?  And then come show zero signs of any damage from the attack?



blk said:


> Moreover, even if the Juubidama weren't made of senjutsu the problem still remains, considering that the pure mechanical and thermal energy that is released by a normal Juubidama is magnitudes above Gai's punches; yet the latter was able to break the black stuff by punching Madara through it.


That's because the onmyouton erases all ninjutsu, even the explosions from ninjutsu.  Gai's punches weren't doing anything to the onmyouton on their own, the only way he damaged them was by punching madara (who can touch the onmyouton) into the black stuff and thus breaking it.  Thus, make the juubidamas senjutsu and obito dies, but he can't since obito can't use senjutsu.


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