# Wonder Woman Vs Goku



## Valdens (Dec 7, 2005)

superman>WW, superman >goku
battle of the superman losers


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## martryn (Dec 7, 2005)

I'm pretty much convinced that Superman isn't greater than Goku in beating things up.  But Superman is pretty much the perfect super hero so I wouldn't be surprised if his current (non-1930's) incarnation is God himself.


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## BladeofTheChad (Dec 8, 2005)

SuperMan Prime>>>Goku....Goku>>>>Post Superman...


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## Bullet (Dec 8, 2005)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> SuperMan Prime>>>Goku....Goku>>>>Post Superman...



Even post crisis Superman is more powerful than Goku, in any transformation too.

As for this fight. It could go either way, WW I think is stronger and is able to match an ssj3 Goku in a fight (especailly since she can take a punch from Superman and Zoom). Goku has the advantage from a distance with his energy blasts, so that whould help him alot in this fight; But WW is very skilled in deflecting blasts with her bracelets, so it won't be easy easy for Goku.

I havn't decide on who wins yet, so I'll wait to hear what others think with an honest opinion before I choose.


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## Last of the Uchihas (Dec 8, 2005)

Goku would pwn anyone, even god and satan.


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## mgrace (Dec 8, 2005)

This is a no-contest event... GOKU for the win.... in seconds


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## Luciferxxxxx (Dec 8, 2005)

yeah!... Goku PWNED WW...

I'd say... Goku >>> Smoker >>> Superman >>> WW ... (ー_ー')


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## Deleted member 15401 (Dec 8, 2005)

i'd give it to goku, just for his fighting experience and martial arts expertise

roughly same strength (probably not, but shutup please and make this easier)
but in fighting styles, goku > wonderwoman~


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## ydraliskos (Dec 8, 2005)

Do you people forget Wonder woman is a woman? Goku would TOTALLY freak out and start acting all stupid because he punched her breast.


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## Luckey (Dec 8, 2005)

Wonderwoman looks a little like chi chi.
So in DB universe I'd say Wonderwoman IS chichi

Goku mistakes her and has babies with her.

THE END


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## Valdens (Dec 8, 2005)

Lain Iwakura said:
			
		

> yeah!... Goku vs WW...a good match...they tie...
> 
> I'd say... *Smoker*>>>*Superman*>>>*Goku=WW* ... (ー_ー')



hmmmm. yep, i needed to fix that. thank me later.


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## Chamcham Trigger (Dec 8, 2005)

Copinator said:
			
		

> Goku would pwn anyone, even god and satan.


Actually he kinda already did too .  
People forget that DBZ never puts space and time into account in their movements.


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## BladeofTheChad (Dec 8, 2005)

Excuse, but can soemone tell me why Regular Superman>>>Goku?

ok, maybe barring the use of Super Sayjin, but other than that...how do u explain it?


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## korican04 (Dec 8, 2005)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> Excuse, but can soemone tell me why Regular Superman>>>Goku?
> 
> ok, maybe barring the use of Super Sayjin, but other than that...how do u explain it?


oh goodness here we go. 
Well there is an entire thread on this so you can search for that.

Basically this comes down to opinion and  I'll ask if you have read comics featuring superman in them. And I mean recent ones like from 2000-2005?


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## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 8, 2005)

here

^^The Goku vs Superman thread since some people are bound to be to lazy to search for it lol


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## Valdens (Dec 8, 2005)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> Excuse, but can soemone tell me why Regular Superman>>>Goku?
> 
> ok, maybe barring the use of Super Sayjin, but other than that...how do u explain it?



because
1.he can destroy planets as easily as goku
2.he sneezed and destroyed a solar system
3.him+10,000 years of sun=superman prime
4.becuase goku=asian super man, and U.S.A.>Asia
5.The only thing that would do actual considerable harm to supeman would be a fully charged spirit bomb, which when it did not kill him, goku would be exhausted and superman wins
6.superman has 99% light speed, goku probably about mach 1-2
but of course smoker still beats either of them.


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## EvilMoogle (Dec 8, 2005)

Valdens said:
			
		

> because
> 5.The only thing that would do actual considerable harm to supeman would be a fully charged spirit bomb, which when it did not kill him, goku would be exhausted and superman wins



Minor corection, spirit bomb doesn't harm those pure of heart, which Superman qualifies for.  WW would probably qualify for as well, actually but there might be some debate there.

Generally I don't know much about WW of recent.  I'd guess she'd win, but that's just a guess.  I voted her to win to help counter the millions that have/will vote Goku without even looking at the thread.


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## Valdens (Dec 8, 2005)

7.





			
				EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> Minor corection, spirit bomb doesn't harm those pure of heart, which Superman qualifies for.


thanks, another reason why goku would lose


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## Bullet (Dec 8, 2005)

EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> Minor corection, spirit bomb doesn't harm those pure of heart, which Superman qualifies for.  WW would probably qualify for as well, actually but there might be some debate there.
> 
> Generally I don't know much about WW of recent.  I'd guess she'd win, but that's just a guess.  I voted her to win to help counter the millions that have/will vote Goku without even looking at the thread.



That why I wanted to wait for an honest opinion. IMO, WW is fast enough to fight with ssj2 or 3 Goku and is more than capable of taking a punch from him. If anybody who posted in this thread read any of WWs books, they'll know that she's well above class 100 (and is probaly stronger than ssj3 Goku), and has taken blows from Superman and Zoom some of the most powerful people in DC. I can post scans, but I'll wait a little longer to see what someboby who actually knows something about both characters. 

Oh, and anybody who thinks Goku is faster, could you prove it?


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## Bullet (Dec 8, 2005)

hjkou said:
			
		

> i'd give it to goku, just for his fighting experience and martial arts expertise
> 
> roughly same strength (probably not, but shutup please and make this easier)
> but in fighting styles, goku > wonderwoman~



WW is one of the best fighter's in DC, she's no amature when it comes to combat. 

I also belive she's stronger than him, even in his higher transformations. Goku does have a chance too with his energy blasts, just as WW does.


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## Bullet (Dec 8, 2005)

Copinator said:
			
		

> Goku would pwn anyone, even god and satan.



Yes, we all know that you're in love with Goku. But what does that have to do with this fight?:S


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## Valdens (Dec 9, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Oh, and anybody who thinks Goku is faster, could you prove it?


they just assume that instant transmission is the same thing as light speed and goku>god,DS,SOK,smoker prime,superman,thanos,imperiex,everything....
i thunk WW would win because she is not that much under supermans level and doesnt get enough credit for her abilities. people watch the super friends and get their levels of power from there 

P.S.:bullet, much better posting. big change since jax vs balrog.


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## Bullet (Dec 9, 2005)

Valdens said:
			
		

> they just assume that instant transmission is the same thing as light speed and goku<god,DS,SOK,smoker prime,superman,thanos,imperiex,everything....
> i thunk WW would win because she is not that much under supermans level and doesnt get enough credit for her abilities. people watch the super friends and get their levels of power from there
> 
> P.S.:bullet, much better posting. big change since jax vs balrog.



IT is only a teleport though, it's not his speed, WW has been up against teleporters before. I don't know why everybody thinks that's Goku's own speed.

I still think Barlog whould win, but that's just my opinion.  Oh and I was just messing with you the way I was posting if you were annoyed by that.:


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## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

let me start off with Goku is better than superman, i was a member of that conversation, well actually the GL Ring Goku vs Superman but that turned into Goku vs Superman quickly.

number 1, Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mach1-2, that is just a ridiculous statement.

WW is not even that damn fast, she barely breaks the speed of sound, her skills are well below goku's when it comes to fighting, IT could be speed if goku wanted to use it like that considering during a fight it would not require much thought to IT to a spot.  WW is not that fast either, she probably wouldn't even be able to keep up with Goku.  we actually finished discussing Goku vs Flash speed wise, if that debate happens then WW's speed is obsolete, and Goku's speed actually corresponds to his fighting speed.

and to be honest, IT is in fact the speed of light.

To be formal, Shunkan Ido is a method of high speed traveling, he moves at the speed of light and anyone he comes in contact with as well.  its done by concentrating on someone's energy, so goku could in fact do that technique all day to WW considering he's not far from sensing her energy because they're fighting.

but considering its instant he is moving faster, he is not dematerializing himself.


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## Bullet (Dec 9, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> let me start off with Goku is better than superman, i was a member of that conversation, well actually the GL Ring Goku vs Superman but that turned into Goku vs Superman quickly.
> 
> number 1, Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mach1-2, that is just a ridiculous statement.
> 
> ...



Helps Flash create a vortex to save MM from a fire caused by nanites who transform trace elements into magnesium 



WW blocks gunfire from every direction 



Wonder Woman's speed and skill 1



Wonder Woman's speed and skill 2











Jesse Quick #1. She's capable of keeping up with Jesses Quick, one of DCs fastest speedsters, so she's alot faster than Mach 1. 





Wonder Woman flies fast enough to create sonic booms 



Her and Superman decide to attack at mach 3.





Now this is an insane speed feet right here, she's far faster than you think.





Diana deflecting Bullets, while she is still blind



Again keeping up with Jesse Quick















She adapts to Flashes speed.



Wonder Woman reflecting bullets (automatic fire) while blind.





WW and the team speedbiltzing



Superman and WW fought from Earth, towards the sun, back on Earth fighting, all in 1:54 from start to finish. That's alot faster than mach speeds. 



Diana takes part in the search around the globe (running) for white martians (Speed feat and perception/reaction abilities)















Another speedbiltz.



Here's a recent issue. Wonder Woman vs. Omacs. Wonder Woman showed some impressive speed and durability feats in this fight. And this happens right after her fight with Superman.

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And how do you know that Goku is even faster than mach 1 or 2? You have any evidence that whould put Goku or any other DBZ character faster than WW? IT is a teleport (and he'll be loseing energy each time he uses it), that's all it is, if it was his speed, he whouldn't have any trouble with the enemies he fight in DBZ because none of them are even close to being light speed. And WW is one the best fighters in DC, she's been trained from a child to be a fighter and has a 1000 years of battle trainning along with Superman, so she's more than capable of fighting against Goku.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

well in actuallity, Cell knew IT, and Buu knew IT, so there u have it, i'm sorry if Toriyama doesn't go out his way to calculate goku's speed all the time.  but considering everyone likes to bring up gotenks goin round the world in 10 min even though he wasn't at full speed or SSJ shows that these guys are much faster than what u are perceiving them to be.

oh and thanks for the WW adapting to Flash pic considering you basically were all against goku in the flash vs goku thread because Flash is so fast yet WW is adapting to his speed.  another example of your one-sided images, i guess this time it comes back, i'll be using that pic in the thread, so thank you bullet.

oh and another thing about speed, why does batman see WW and Superman so well when their fighting, cause people hardly ever see Goku and the stronger members fighting. but i guess they're teleporting at that point to.

you have totally stumped me on the WW speed i'll give that to u, she is quite fast, might as well put her up there with the Flash considering Jesse Quick shares the same speed as her father Johnny who tapped into the speed force.  Then there's the question of why she hasn't tapped in the speed force considering she wasn't born a speedster as well, well i guess thats just something DC forgot to air out.

Goku doesn't even lose energy when doing IT, when did u ever see him exhausted or break a sweat from it.  another theory that u felt like throwing out there.  he did a kamehameha and IT while already drained of energy so dismiss that, oh yeah he also fought a cell jr. and then IT cell to king kai's planet without taking a senzu bean.  his speed is obviously leaps and bounds above mach 1-2 considering he made it appear as he was intangible due to him moving so fast.

toriyama has never gone into specifics of goku's powers and speed, i'm basing my statements on things that characters have done in the series and the fact that after the 10 year skip after Buu Goku is better than that (referring to Gotenks and Goku).  and considering Goku's martial arts training is all about him controlling his body inside and out, he could probably vibrate his body as well.  when the energy blast were fired and went through him, goku only had imprints to his left and they were very close, close enough that if he dodged there his body would not have been out the way.


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## Viciousness (Dec 9, 2005)

According to several database Ive looked up the highest shown speed from her is mach 3 flying and subsonic on land, and this one says the highest possible theoretically would be mach:

http://search.deviantart.com/searchcraft/?cmd=1&offset=0&search=neji+and+tenten 

"Superspeed: It is unknown how long she can maintain a speedster?s average pace (which we clock at approximately 125 mph (2.08 miles/second) to 200 mph (3.3 mile/sec) innercity and 225 mph (3.75 miles/sec) to 500 mph (8.3 miles/sec) over land outside of cities). Since Wonder Woman lacks the speed aura of true speedsters, the environmental effects/disruptions that she causes probably prevent her from utilizing superspeed mobility as a common mode of travel. With bracers forged by Hephastes, Wonder Woman boosts her resistance to injury with her near-indestructible bracers. She is able to deflect attacks that might otherwise cause her considerable injury but she can only deflect attacks she is aware of.

Flight: Wonder Woman is capable of unassisted flight through an as yet unknown but probably magical means. She has been clocked at Mach 3 (2,100 mph, 35 miles per second) in flight and can be presumed to be much faster if she wanted to be. No reliable ceiling is known but atmospheric distubances occur at speeds greater than Mach 10 (7,000 mph, 116 miles/sec) so that is probably her limit in atmosphere as well. Her aerial manuevability is not as developed as aerial combatants such as Hawkman or the Black Condor, but she is a relatively capable aerial combatant as well. "




			
				Bullet said:
			
		

> And how do you know that Goku is even faster than mach 1 or 2? You have any evidence that whould put Goku or any other DBZ character faster than WW? IT is a teleport (and he'll be loseing energy each time he uses it), that's all it is, if it was his speed, he whouldn't have any trouble with the enemies he fight in DBZ because none of them are even close to being light speed. And WW is one the best fighters in DC, she's been trained from a child to be a fighter and has a 1000 years of battle trainning along with Superman, so she's more than capable of fighting against Goku.



Youve seen pictures of Roshi's blast hitting the moon in a frame before in what looks like a second. They dodge blasts like that in dbz all the time with ease. Piccollo Special Beam cannon Makenkozappo has been dodged before.
Even if you assume Gotenks was going all out when he ran around the world and Goku is slightly below him, can you really get around the world that fast at mach 2? The earth at the equator has a circumference of 249000 miles and mach 2 is 1400 mph. Doing the math that means itd take 18 hours to get around the world at mach 2.

To do it in 10 minutes youd have to travel approximately 213.5 times the speed of sound. Its not going to go down much unless you do it at the ice capes or something.  But even at the poles edge the circumference of the earth is 24860 miles: Link removed. So its still 213 times the speed of sound to circle the earth in 10 minutes there. And If I remember correctly Gotenks was in base form when he did that. And theres been plenty of other examples of Goku being much faster than mach 2. The guy freaking escaped from namek when it looked like it had 2 seconds left to blow for christs sake. He seemed to vibrate through Jeice and Burter's ki attacks before as well. 

Youre posting pics of WW blocking bullets to prove her speed, yet weve seen Gohan catch a steam of bullets fired on all sides of him with one hand in a relaxed fashion, and she looked like she was struggling there. 

It was obvious Supes was holding back in his fight with her, and Flash probably is too, since you guys said he never goes all out at all in the goku vs flash thread, who knows how hard he was trying at all. And if Goku decides to blow up a chunk of the planet theres no way Wonder Woman is going to escape it. Sure she unlike the flash she has the liberty to fly off of it, but at just mach 3  shes still going to take serious damage, and its said she cant really take damage like Superman and co..


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## Bullet (Dec 9, 2005)

"unknowndanex well in actuallity, Cell knew IT, and Buu knew IT, so there u have it, i'm sorry if Toriyama doesn't go out his way to calculate goku's speed all the time.  but considering everyone likes to bring up gotenks goin round the world in 10 min even though he wasn't at full speed or SSJ shows that these guys are much faster than what u are perceiving them to be."

Cell didn't know IT until after he was blow into outer space by Gohans attack, during his fight against Goku he never knew it. Buu new about the attack, but Gohan (who was pounding S. Buu) or Gotenks didn't. Gotenks isn light speed, not even Super Buu in his strongest incarnation (when he absorbed Gohan) was light speed.

 Canon Instant Transmission takes a second (to a couple) to lock onto ki before Goku can teleport..... meaning Goku had about a seconds time to teleport

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Super Buu 3 takes off

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Super Buu is still flying, while Goku and Vegeta are chatting

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Super Buu 3 finally finds them

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"oh and thanks for the WW adapting to Flash pic considering you basically were all against goku in the flash vs goku thread because Flash is so fast yet WW is adapting to his speed.  another example of your one-sided images, i guess this time it comes back, i'll be using that pic in the thread, so thank you bullet."

I still think Flash can beat Goku. Flash wasn't using all of his speed against WW. And WW isn't slow, she's fought Superman and was able to keep up with Jesses Quick, both who are faster than Goku.

"oh and another thing about speed, why does batman see WW and Superman so well when their fighting, cause people hardly ever see Goku and the stronger members fighting. but i guess they're teleporting at that point to."

Superman was the one that could see them, not Batman. During the Superman vs. Doomsday fight no one was able to see them, and that was ten years ago back when Superman was only a little bit faster than Mach speeds; so what's your point?

"you have totally stumped me on the WW speed i'll give that to u, she is quite fast, might as well put her up there with the Flash considering Jesse Quick shares the same speed as her father Johnny who tapped into the speed force.  Then there's the question of why she hasn't tapped in the speed force considering she wasn't born a speedster as well, well i guess thats just something DC forgot to air out."

That just proves that WW is almost as fast as speedsters. That also proves that she's fast enough to fight any DBZ character.

"Goku doesn't even lose energy when doing IT, when did u ever see him exhausted or break a sweat from it.  another theory that u felt like throwing out there.  he did a kamehameha and IT while already drained of energy so dismiss that, oh yeah he also fought a cell jr. and then IT cell to king kai's planet without taking a senzu bean.  his speed is obviously leaps and bounds above mach 1-2 considering he made it appear as he was intangible due to him moving so fast."

No, Goku was fresh when he did the IT with Kamehameha wave, he lost all his energy once he failed to kill Cell with the attack. And Cell could have been hit Goku, considering how long it took. And again IT is only a teleport, not his actual speed.

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"toriyama has never gone into specifics of goku's powers and speed, i'm basing my statements on things that characters have done in the series and the fact that after the 10 year skip after Buu Goku is better than that (referring to Gotenks and Goku).  and considering Goku's martial arts training is all about him controlling his body inside and out, he could probably vibrate his body as well.  when the energy blast were fired and went through him, goku only had imprints to his left and they were very close, close enough that if he dodged there his body would not have been out the way."
Now your just assuming that he could vibrate his body invisible, but he can't, because he's not close to light speed. You have to be light speed in order to do somthing like that.


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## Viciousness (Dec 9, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Now your just assuming that he could vibrate his body invisible, but he can't, because he's not close to light speed. You have to be light speed in order to do somthing like that.


It seems pretty obvious that the Dragonball characters move alot faster in close quarter combat than they do when flying around the world or from country to country etc.

They dodge blasts that seem to be the speed of light all the time, fight faster than untrained eye can see by faaaaaaaaaar (Since even at the beggining of DB they were doing this, and now its so fast that the people who could see them then and thensome can't). But when theyre flying overhead ussuallythey dont seem like a blur but instead something that can definately be spotted. It definately seemed like Goku was vibrating through those attacks.

Also Goku isnt going to need time to lock on to a ki thats infront of him for IT. Vegeta was obviously a fair distance away  and Goku just felt his faint ki and had to log on. If hes using it in combat like he did against Cell then why locate his ki?


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## konflikti (Dec 9, 2005)

The speed of the ki blasts in DB seems completely random when compared to speed feats the characters have done. The ki blasts are extremely slow in close quarters, leaving characters chance to actually dodge them, while being near light-speed on long range. So in my opinion, you can't judge anyones speed by comparing it to the speed of ki blast.

On the other hand, it is somewhat common sense to note that speedsters can dodge ki blasts because DB crew can dodge them too, considering that the DC speedsters are usually potrayed with more amazing speed feats than that of DB crew.

The fight itself is lot more closer that Superman vs. Goku, since WWs high standings in the comics still are lot lower than Supermans. I'd still give it to WW since her general invulneribility in close combat is enough to duke it out with Supes, even if he is holding back. Goku has never potrayed such provess in physical fight. Considering the fact that WW should be at least as fast to catch Goku adn dodge his ki blasts while doing this, it would in my opinion boil down to physical combat.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

i don't give it to WW, Supes, or Flash, the only reason DC has more speed feats is because they've been around longer, and DBZ chose to stick with fights and lets not sit around thinkin up random numbers to put on a comic to make people say wow.  

how the hell would u say Goku was fresh when he did the IT Kamehameha vs Cell and they were fighting for awhile at that point, stop getting image and read something.  we've actually proved that goku and others are light speed or above, u are the one that hasn't proved if they aren't.  and last time i checked i didn't throw a time when Cell knew it i just said he did considering you decided to run off at the mouth sayin goku the only one that knows it.

now u gotta take up for flash in the WW pic because she's doing something against the almighty flash, whats the point of showin the pic if she was fighting someone who wasn't tryin, that actually downplays her.

what we're sayin in IT is that if u move that instantly u must be past light, u don't have to look for ki when u're that damn close to the opponent, and also flip the page when he calls it bein a being of light.

and whats up with the stupid assumption that during Doomsday, Superman only knew mach speeds, come on now.  and since we're talkin bout back in the day when goku was a CHILD, people couldn't see goku, krillin, or roshi back in DB, so what's your point.

how u gonna say superman the only one that saw it and batman was the one that said she's adapting to his speed, did u check your images before sending them.

my gosh, now WW is bein overrated, i'm waiting to see every DC Comics hero put on this board now and see how quickly yall can overrate them, cause this is trippin me out.


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## korican04 (Dec 9, 2005)

I give this to goku pretty quickly. Wonder Woman might be fast but her max speed is mach 3. Flash was making fun of her because it at one point. 
In terms of durability she can probably keep up with goku in terms of taking punches, but goku can use his energy blasts and her blast durability isn't up to par with others like supes and jon jon. 

I'm not taking account blast speeds from any blowing up moon from earth that db and dbz showed them do, because later they are all impressed at someone making a deep hole in the ground. hello piccolo did you not forget you just blew up the moon 2 months ago, why are you impressed at a 100 foot hole. 
Then you have them shoot blasts real time and all the other person does is punch them out of the way. If you can shoot blasts at light speed why don't you do it all the time, instead of shooting out something that takes 3 seconds to get to your opponent and have them punch it.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

well u can't really say if those blasts are light speeds away sometimes, they're just probably that damn fast enough to avoid or hit them.  but sometimes u have to assume those blasts are fast as shit, and DBZ has a thing where they like to show u what other people are thinkin or doing at the exact time a blast is fired instead of after.  like the final flash bein fired at cell, if it was a 3 second beam cell would have easily moved, i think it was much faster.  

damnit, vegeta was supposed to win that fight, he missed.

oh and VEGETA WOULD BEAT THEM ALL INCLUDING GOKU AT THE SAME TIME


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## korican04 (Dec 9, 2005)

you know they just stand there sometimes to prove a point that the blast can't hurt you. Then you see them raise and eye brow and be all surprised at the "power" that's coming. I'm not saying the blasts aren't fast, but light speed, c'mon now. Instead of thinking about the strength of the blast that's going to hit you, move out of the way.


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## Viciousness (Dec 9, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> I'm not saying the blasts aren't fast, but light speed, c'mon now.



For Muten ROshi's blast to reach the moon in a second itd have to be faster than light speed, and it definately didnt take more than 2 seconds, neither did piccolo's yet radditz dodged the same beam before. these guys might not fly around the world at light speed, but they definately think and dodge at something around or above it. Them thinking about things has been slowed down alot just like in db the exchange between roshi and kurririn happened in an instant, and theyre way faster now.

but yeah like you said Goku'd definately beat WW. Even if you doubt the lighspeed in battle thing Gotenks flew around the world at mach 200+ and just about every reliable site Ive checked has clocked WW at mach 3 and possibly 10 max.


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## korican04 (Dec 9, 2005)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> For Muten ROshi's blast to reach the moon in a second itd have to be faster than light speed, and it definately didnt take more than 2 seconds, neither did piccolo's yet radditz dodged the same beam before.


So question. If they can easily shoot out blasts that can travel light speed and blow up 1/6th the mass of the earth. Why be surprised at some ditch in the ground and not shoot those blasts all the time. Like when they fought napa. If they had that power why not blast napa while he was falling at some speed like 200 mph, at that blast speed and distance it should have been instantaneous?


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## CrazyMoronX (Dec 9, 2005)

Simple answer:

Dragonball doesn't work in real world physics, nor does it make sense, or have to make sense. It just is.

I give the fight to Goku, since he's obviously superior givent he arguments.


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## Viciousness (Dec 9, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> So question. If they can easily shoot out blasts that can travel light speed and blow up 1/6th the mass of the earth. Why be surprised at some ditch in the ground and not shoot those blasts all the time. Like when they fought napa. If they had that power why not blast napa while he was falling at some speed like 200 mph, at that blast speed and distance it should have been instantaneous?



Im really not familiar with the scene youre talking about. Its not when Nappa took out the city right? If its something elseMy guess is because it was a condensed blast that scraped the surface. and Piccolo was more awed by the ki that went into it or something. And when characters are falling theyve been shown getting lit up with dozens of blasts to the back before. By the end of the series its not even disputable their blasts where accidentally doing that level of damage and they were trying to avoid it


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## korican04 (Dec 9, 2005)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Im really not familiar with the scene youre talking about. Its not when Nappa took out the city right? If its something elseMy guess is because it was a condensed blast that scraped the surface. and Piccolo was more awed by the ki that went into it or something. And when characters are falling theyve been shown getting lit up with dozens of blasts to the back before. By the end of the series its not even disputable their blasts where accidentally doing that level of damage and they were trying to avoid it


napa shot a blast on the ground and it made a hole, he aimed at the ground no scraping going on, then piccolo commented,  "what a crater" "what power". No mention of ki, or anything just the hole.

I guess it doesn't really matter because dbz doesn't follow any real rules other than training makes you powerful and you can learn to do about anything if you train hard enough.


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## Phaze1TM (Dec 9, 2005)

Goku wins hands down, In the confusion of a Instant transmission he could remove her bra and she woulldn't even notice.


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## Bullet (Dec 9, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> I give this to goku pretty quickly. Wonder Woman might be fast but her max speed is mach 3. Flash was making fun of her because it at one point.
> In terms of durability she can probably keep up with goku in terms of taking punches, but goku can use his energy blasts and her blast durability isn't up to par with others like supes and jon jon.
> 
> I'm not taking account blast speeds from any blowing up moon from earth that db and dbz showed them do, because later they are all impressed at someone making a deep hole in the ground. hello piccolo did you not forget you just blew up the moon 2 months ago, why are you impressed at a 100 foot hole.
> Then you have them shoot blasts real time and all the other person does is punch them out of the way. If you can shoot blasts at light speed why don't you do it all the time, instead of shooting out something that takes 3 seconds to get to your opponent and have them punch it.




How can you say she's only mach 3, when the scans I've shown above proves that she's much faster? How can you even assume that Goku is faster than mach 3 or her? 

And WW is very durable if she gets hit by Superman. She's was even hit from space all the back down to Earth, that's very good durability. Goku is strong, but he doesn't hit as hard as Superman. She's very good at blocking blasts, that's one of her best talents and can take them too (I think even better than MM). She's going to block right through the blasts taking it towards h2h too. I also belive WW to be much stronger than ssj3 Goku, so what she don't make for range attacks, she does with her strength.


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## korican04 (Dec 9, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> How can you say she's only mach 3, when the scans I've shown above proves that she's much faster? How can you even assume that Goku is faster than mach 3 or her?
> 
> And WW is very durable if she gets hit by Superman. She's was even hit from space all the back down to Earth, that's very good durability. Goku is strong, but he doesn't hit as hard as Superman. She's very good at blocking blasts, that's one of her best talents and can take them too (I think even better than MM). She's going to block right through the blasts taking it towards h2h too. I also belive WW to be much stronger than ssj3 Goku, so what she don't make for range attacks, she does with her strength.


Her blast durability comes from her being able to deflect lasers. 
When she fought imperiex, and cracked the probes body, she survived the explosion and was able to fight later on but she got f**ked up. That explosion could tear the sea in half. A strong blast from goku could do the same if he pulled one out on her. 
Physically she can probably lift more then goku. He pushes mountains she pulls the moon. I'll agree there. But blast capabilities are lacking that's why she uses the bracelets. Jon Jon can be ripped in half and be alright.


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## Bullet (Dec 9, 2005)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> *It seems pretty obvious that the Dragonball characters move alot faster in close quarter combat than they do when flying around the world or from country to country etc.*
> 
> Which WW has proven to do both, with the scans I've shown.
> 
> ...


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## Bullet (Dec 9, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> Her blast durability comes from her being able to deflect lasers.
> When she fought imperiex, and cracked the probes body, she survived the explosion and was able to fight later on but she got f**ked up. That explosion could tear the sea in half. A strong blast from goku could do the same if he pulled one out on her.
> Physically she can probably lift more then goku. He pushes mountains she pulls the moon. I'll agree there. But blast capabilities are lacking that's why she uses the bracelets. Jon Jon can be ripped in half and be alright.



Those imperiex blasts weren't to be be taken lightly and she didn't know that it whould selfdestruct either. Doesn't matter though, I've other scans showing her taking energy blasts just fine and continuing to fight. Also her bracelets has deflected alot of blasts before, she's very good at deflecting, which is why she whould no doubt be able to fight him in close combat.

She also has her Lasso with her and is very good at using it.


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## BladeofTheChad (Dec 9, 2005)

You guys seem to forget the Wizard Crossover special...where they decided Goku would win.


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## Viciousness (Dec 9, 2005)

*


			
				Bullet said:
			
		


			How can you say she's only mach 3, when the scans I've shown above proves that she's much faster? How can you even assume that Goku is faster than mach 3 or her?
		
Click to expand...

*

Umm Ive already explained how you can assume that. Base form Gotenks ran around the earth in about 10 Minutes. Toriyama directly said youd barely notice a difference between Goku and Gotenks. To accomplish such a feat he'd have to run at at least mach 230. The scans you showed  featured WW fighting speedsters who were holding back, and keeping up with a Flash Friend who looked like she was barely jogging. You cant assume that makes her as fast as the flash and supes when theyre serious. And no one else does. As Ive said before nearly every site Ive been to has clocked her at mach 3, with the most slack giving her a max of mach 10.



			
				Bullet said:
			
		

> There energy blasts aren't light speed. Spiderman dodges energy blasts all the time, but does that make them light speed, no it doesn't.



Not all the blasts are lightspeed but theyve definately dodged lightspeed blast before if freaking Roshi blew up the moon in less than a second. Even if you somehow argue that frame spread out over 2 seconds the average distance from the earth till the moon would make the beam at least light speed.

Add to that the pic you said had the guy say his blasts moved at light speed, youre contradicting yourself. Spidey just has the instinctive reaction time of his spidey sense to see where the guy is obviously pointing his arm and dodge. Spidey is fighting a human who can only move his arm at human speed to begin with. Goku as a kid moved his arms so fast against tenshinhan it looked like he had 6 of them for several minutes of the fight. So that energy 



> *Also Goku isnt going to need time to lock on to a ki thats infront of him for IT. Vegeta was obviously a fair distance away  and Goku just felt his faint ki and had to log on. If hes using it in combat like he did against Cell then why locate his ki?*
> 
> Goku only used IT twice against Cell (one to protect the planet from Cell Kamehameha wave and the other when used IT plus Kamehameha wave), it wasn't used through the whole battle.



So whats your argument? Since Goku's had to lock onto ki's more often to visibly show he's doing Shunkan Idou by default even if he can feel the ki right in front of him hes going to have to take a minute to lock on? He definately fooled cell who has a reaction time quick enough to dodge a final flash.Also just because we know for a fact he uses it in big moments doesnt mean he hasnt used it throughout the fight when hes definately capable. 

Bullet no offense but honestly you act like showing enough photos could prove a hamster will kill a rhino in a fight. Majority of these pictures arent saying much even if you cleverly word them to overrate the character past what DC intended.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

if you put Bullet's images together, it starts to contradict a lot of what he says in threads.  like flash bein so fast and WW catching him, then in a superman thread how he makes WW look stupid, where as in another image he wants to show WW going toe to toe with him.  i remember i disected just about every superman pic u showed in the GL Goku thread when u felt like showin him fighting Warbird and braggin bout it (Warbird is the weakest version of Carol Danvers, Ms. Marvel is second, and she would have destroyed superman when she was Binary).

DrunkenYoshimaster has basically proven that Goku is as fast as we all say he is and didn't need an image to say it, cause it would be impossible to find considering Toriyama has better things to talk about than speed feats.  The only reason Goku hasn't pushed a moon is because he hasn't tried.

Goku takes this, WW is very skilled i will take nothing away from her, but this thing with her bein faster than Goku or anything else is ridiculous.  And her lifting things has nothing with her punching power forreal,  Mike Tyson fought many people who were stronger than him in his prime and took their punches and knocked them out in one.

how can u compare the energy blast from DBZ to Spiderman, come on now thats a little ridiculous as well.  come back with some truth to yo words and not an image i can use for later.


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## Bullet (Dec 9, 2005)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> *
> *
> 
> *Umm Ive already explained how you can assume that. Base form Gotenks ran around the earth in about 10 Minutes. Toriyama directly said youd barely notice a difference between Goku and Gotenks. To accomplish such a feat he'd have to run at at least mach 230. The scans you showed  featured WW fighting speedsters who were holding back, and keeping up with a Flash Friend who looked like she was barely jogging. You cant assume that makes her as fast as the flash and supes when theyre serious. And no one else does. As Ive said before nearly every site Ive been to has clocked her at mach 3, with the most slack giving her a max of mach 10.*
> ...


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## Bullet (Dec 9, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> *if you put Bullet's images together, it starts to contradict a lot of what he says in threads.  like flash bein so fast and WW catching him, then in a superman thread how he makes WW look stupid, where as in another image he wants to show WW going toe to toe with him.  i remember i disected just about every superman pic u showed in the GL Goku thread when u felt like showin him fighting Warbird and braggin bout it (Warbird is the weakest version of Carol Danvers, Ms. Marvel is second, and she would have destroyed superman when she was Binary).*
> 
> I havn't been contradicting any thing.:S  The scans I've showed only proves that WW isn't slow as everyboy thinks.
> 
> ...


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## Viciousness (Dec 9, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> DrunkenYoshimaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bullet (Dec 9, 2005)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Bullet said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Viciousness (Dec 9, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Gotenks was more powerful than Goku, it's why he fought against S. Buu when Goku couldn't. So again he's not in the same league as Gotenks.



Toriyama said he was slightly more powerful, but even in his way of saying it it sounded as if he was saying Goku would win in a fight still due to being the best martial artist. Gotenks is a cocky bastard and Buu even stated he was toying around to Gohan. He couldve absorbed him earlier if he were being serious. Goku couldve knocked Super Buu around a few times but unlike Gotenks who is a cocky fusion, he's not going to beleive he could actually defeat him in the end, especially when he's absorbing people for power and Vegeta was there as another person for him to absorb along with everyone they just dragged out of him, now immobile. They couldnt have won in that situation even if you switch Gotenks with Goku.





> Super Buu 3 (strongest incarnation) could barely get to Goku and Vegeta in time, so that also proves that they also aren't light speed either



I said in close combat first off, and second we have no idea how far Goku had to teleport to reach Vegeta in the first place. Buu had to feel for their signal to find them, and he wasnt even sure they were there until he got alot closer.
You already made the point that Goku took a while to locate exactly where Vegeta's ki was, what makes you think Buu would do it so much faster.



> Napa through a blasts at Gohan with the intentions of killing him, which wasn't even close to being the speed of light.


The power doesnt determine the speed. But the fact that Gohan wasnt moving to begin with means Nappa doesnt have a reason to throw anything near his fastest beam.



> Who said that there blasts were the speed of light cannon wise? And again Spiderman dodge energy blasts all the time, so it only proves that even some of slower than WW and Goku could do it.



The guy said it himself! read the page. He's dodging blasts generated from someones hands who arent moving nearly as fast as the speed of the blasts. All he has to do is look at where his hands are aiming and move! 



> Same time it took for him to teleport away from Cell's kamehameha wave.:S It takes time for him to lock on to somebody KI.


 Another bullshit argument. Goku took a while to teleport in order to feign an attack from above.



> Even if it wasn't in the manga, it was in the Japanese anime show which still makes it cannon.



And this is the most bullshit of them all. Its like me saying Wonderwoman is super slow on Cartoon Network so Goku would kick her ass. Theres tons of examples of DC characters being toned down on TV, so your saying I can use those and account them as the true characters power? Youd never see that happen with the true manga Goku.



> No, the scans show that WW is fast enough to keep up with speedsters (even if they're holding back), which proves she whouldn't have any problems fighting Goku. She also fought with Superman, went around the world while running, and was able to deflect oncoming attacks from different angles while portecting someone in that scan I posted, which also proves that she's faster than Mach 3. Mach 3 isn't her limit, her and Superman had no problem doing that at all either. You still havn't porven that Goku could even go at Mach 3 also.



Right because I dont have a million scans of DB at my disposal, and the series didnt go on for enough decades for Toriyama to give a definitive proof example of it or anything to the contrary... Its obvious to anyone who reads what I wrote that Goku could go mach 3, based on the FACT that Toriyama barely places him below Gotenks, and Gotenks not even in his max form moved a good 100 times that. Youre just in denial. 
And pitting WW against speedsters who aren't doing anything near what theyre capable of, proves nothing. They were moving slow enough to communicate with her or give her a challenge based on her own abilities. Thats like saying "Im a great boxer, because I took a punch from Mike Tyson who was pulling it significantly when he hit me in the face".

Youre in denial and Im through arguing with you if after all this you cant even accept Goku's speed>>>>>>>>>>Mach 3. Yet Ive been completely unable to find a site that BSs WW enough that her speed would be even above mach 10 theoretically.

Youre dragging anime filler (an example that shows Goku being much weaker than the canon manga) into this to give yourself any kind of argument, but do you see me mentioning the comic where Wonder Woman lost to Storm of all people?


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## Cytokinesis (Dec 9, 2005)

I would like to reitarate this completely awesome theory by Luckey that makes a lot of sense and explains the humongous difference between fight speeds and flight speeds.

 Dragonball Theory

Albert Einstein theorized that time and gravity are a close link. He also said if you travel at the speed of light your body will age slower than people that are not. If you travel at the speed of light for 10 years, came back to earth, you'll be 10,000 years into the future (or something like that). In 1976 a physicist theorized you can travel back in time by getting and object with a gravity 100,000 stronger than our sun's, stand at the edge of it, and spin the object close to light speed. The exact opposite of going to the future in which you must go at the speed of light.


Remember, the higher ones gravity or weight in proportion to one's relative gravity, the faster time would travel. To an ant, life seems just as long as to an elephant. That's why flies have much better reflexes.


Now, imagine the Earth, the Sun and a blackhole laying on top of a rubber sheet. Earth will bend the sheet a little and the Sun will bend the sheet a lot because its heavier. A Black Hole on the other hand will break through the sheet. The Black Hole has such a powerful gravity that even light cannot escape. The Black Hole is quite literally making it's own time frame and own universe. In other words, if you bend gravity, you bend time. Any physicist will tell you this.


Now your reading this and saying to yourself "What the heck does this have to do with anything!"
Well one night I connected this theory with why in DBZ they have really fast reflexes and move so fast! As one recalls, in DBZ they obviously move faster than the speed of sound without making sonic booms. In the next paragraph I hope I will make DBZ scientifically possible.


Did you ever notice why gravity seems to be the main topic of massive powerlevel increases? That's because Goku is able to adapt to lets say 450 times gravity. To him, normal now is 450 times gravity. Everything in the normal gravity world just seems slow when he's charged up. Sure, there are other ways of become ungodly powerful in DBZ without gravity training, but this is concrete evidence. Goku in which now mastered time a gravity himself because earth's gravity is no longer an obstacle.


Couple paragraphs ago I said that DBZ characters usually don't make sonic booms even though they travel much faster than the speed of sound. Well, think about it. Vegeta is like a black hole, his power is so strong that he's able (you guessed it) bend time and gravity himself! History lesson: In 1996 a French physicist proposed on can travel at the speed of light without actually going the speed of light. If you can squeeze the gravity ahead of you, you can get past the object faster but still going at the same speed. That's because there's less distance between you and your desired point. What Vegeta does is bend gravity ahead of him so he can get closer, lets say, Recoom, without having to break the law of physics which does not permit traveling close to the speed of light. The higher one's powerlevel, the higher one's "gravity". So Vegeta gets to Recoom without actually traveling faster than the speed of sound in which ladies and gentleman, without making a sonic boom.


Why do you think when character charge up, they strangely alter gravity around them? Or when two character lock up, the ground around them creates a crater? They create their own gravity. Akira Toriyama is a smart fellow. He probably knew this without actually knowing why.

Being capable of altering the gravity around you would in turn make every dragonball character capable of traveling faster than the speed of light--which basically means faster than The Flash.


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## Bullet (Dec 9, 2005)

Cytokinesis said:
			
		

> I would like to reitarate this completely awesome theory by Luckey that makes a lot of sense and explains the humongous difference between fight speeds and flight speeds.
> 
> Dragonball Theory
> 
> ...



I don't think so. That whould mean that picachu, Yusuke, Lina, Kenshin, and just about every other anime character does that. In anime when character blink to one place to another, it's really just showing that there going from point A to point B. They're really just using superspeed (flight speed or running speed).


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## Viciousness (Dec 9, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Goku whouldn't have came close to Gotenks in power, Goku at ssj3 was equal to Fat Buu (who isn't close to Buu in power), when Evil Buu absorb Fat Buu his power right there increase well over Goku in power. So again he's not close to being on Gotenks level.



How was he equal to Fat Buu? he told Piccolo he couldve beat him but it was his time to leave and left it up to the boys to do. Hes realistic so he knows he couldnt beat Super Buu. After trying for a good amount of time Gotenks couldnt either.



> Close combat still don't know how fast he is, so you still not making sense.:S
> Goku was alredy talking to Vegeta when S. Buu took off (and no, Buu didn't know about the IT until he became Kid Buu)



I didnt say Buu knew IT I said he had to find their energy signal. Whats the point of going light speed if you dont know where youre going to.




> It doesn't matter, you said that there energy blasts are light speed, if that was true, the blasts whould have been killed Gohan before Piccolo was even able to move.


Stop taking me out of context, I said their blasts are definately able to go lightspeed, I didnt say all of them were. Nappa doesnt have to throw a lightspeed blast to destroy a stationary target.



> Spiderman is dodging the energy blasts, there's just no way around it. Goku did take awhile to teleport away from the attack (he puts his hand on top of his head in order to teleport).


What do you mean theres no way around it? He obviously sees where the guy is pointing and dodges with his spider reflexes. The guy says the blast is light speed, theres no way around that now, but even kenshin explained he dodged gunfire based on seeing where the gun was aimed.



> The Japanese anime was made by Toriyama, so it's cannon. I don't use US version, because they have alot of stuff screwed up.



If you really think Toriyama created the DBZ anime, there really is no point in discussing this with you. Toriyama said he was displeased with the anime filler they were doing on several occasions. He's no more responsible for it than Kishimoto is for the crappy Naruto filler airing now...




> But what you wrote, still doesn't prove that he's faster than WW. WW can go against Speedsters because she has the speed too. When they showed her keeping up with Superman and Jesse it proves that she's alot faster than Mach 3.
> 
> Which you still fail to prove that Goku's speed >>>>> WW. So yes WW is fast enough or faster than Goku.



You have no proof these people were going above mach 3 in the first place! their capable of going Light speed and above, but theres no way in hell they were doing anything near that against WW. If you took a philosophy course for a day, youd know youre guilty of so many fallacies with this argument its not even funny. But by logic if Goku is slightly below Gotenks according to Toriyama, and Gotenks not even in SSJ3 out can go mach 230 around the world not even trying hard, then by default Goku in SSJ3 speed > mach 230 (probably much greater). Arguing that he's 100 times as slow when he's keeping up with the same people Gotenks fights is ludicrous. I dont even think you could make the argument that piccollo is only mach 3.



> Goku push a moutain apart isn't filler because it was in the Japanese version also, what's filler is Vegeta blowing up planet Arila (since that episode doesn't even exsist in the Japanese version or original Manga). And if Goku didn't have that feat, it whould be noway to no just how strong he is, since there wasn't alot of strength feats shown in the manga. That was his highest strength feat. WW losing to Strom isn't cannon, it's a crossover, and was fan voted. Do you think Wolverine can Lobo? Because Lobo lost to him in a crossover.



....do you honestly think the US version was animating new episodes. The arlia ep exists in both versions. And so are the animated DC series cannon for you? theres plenty of examples of the DC characters being weak there, but I admit they were toned down (and definately werent thought up by Toriyama, I dont know where you got that from), just like you need to admit Goku was toned down significantly in that mountain splitting example.

But like I said theres no point in arguing when youre being completely unreasonable and making outrageous statements about the speed thing, and trying to argue that the anime should be taken as canon. Have fun deluding yourself into thinking that the anime is canon and SSJ3 Goku is 100xslower than SSJ Gotenks when Toriyama himself puts Goku slightly below Gotenks.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

i said u contradict yourself with images, because your reasons for using them in one thread will be downplayed when u show them in another thread.
example:
"hey guys check this flash pic out, goku is no way near that speed no one is fast as flash."  
WW has no speed bullet. 
" hey guys check this WW pic where she's keeping up with the flash and jesse quick and superman. " 
so that means WW is as fast as flash bullet, then goku could adapt and catch him.  
"what are u talkin bout, Flash was holding back"
so she's not that fast
"she kept up with Flash, Jesse Quick, and Superman in my pictures"
it'll go forever dealing with u

*Goku whouldn't have came close to Gotenks in power, Goku at ssj3 was equal to Fat Buu (who isn't close to Buu in power), when Evil Buu absorb Fat Buu his power right there increase well over Goku in power. So again he's not close to being on Gotenks level.*

look that analysis is based on toriyama, not DY so take that up with him.  and considering goku does nothing but train, after the timeskip he was stronger.

*Close combat still don't know how fast he is, so you still not making sense.
Goku was alredy talking to Vegeta when S. Buu took off (and no, Buu didn't know about the IT until he became Kid Buu)*

S.Buu was the cocky one of the Buu formations, Kid Buu was the relentless killer.  S.Buu basically looked for them in that way because he just got a kick out of it.  thats just how his character was.  if he wanted to, he would've found them and quickly killed them, the same way if he wanted to he could've killed gohan or absorbed him instead of playing with him first.

*It doesn't matter, you said that there energy blasts are light speed, if that was true, the blasts whould have been killed Gohan before Piccolo was even able to move.*

considering we've basically been saying these guys were fast as shit to begin with even during DB, the blast could have gone at light speed but piccolo just happened to be faster 

*Spiderman is dodging the energy blasts, there's just no way around it. Goku did take awhile to teleport away from the attack (he puts his hand on top of his head in order to teleport).*

spiderman dodges energy blast one day and gets hit by a kraven's tranquilizer dart the next, so whats your point.  why don't u do some image searching and dig up Kraven's Last Hunt.  the guy said he got the speed of light on his side and before he could do anything to start it up he was already webbed up, so in actuallity he wasn't dodging light speed attacks.  don't compare those crappy blasts to dbz, those things were probably moving like bullets at spiderman.  and don't make more stupid comments like sayin dbz blasts are bullet speed or slightly faster.

*The Japanese anime was made by Toriyama, so it's cannon. I don't use US version, because they have alot of stuff screwed up.*

what the hell are u talkin bout.  like i said u should stop running off at the mouth, its clear that if it ain't on an image u know nothing about it.  there are no US only episodes, all the US episodes are dubbed just like the Naruto ones and every other anime brought here.  Toriyama didn't even do the DBZ anime, he is listed as original creator and he was consulted.

*But what you wrote, still doesn't prove that he's faster than WW. WW can go against Speedsters because she has the speed too. When they showed her keeping up with Superman and Jesse it proves that she's alot faster than Mach 3.
*

yet, if we turn that around on you you're gonna say that superman and jesse quick were holdin back just like flash.  u'll contradict yourself once again soon, u've become good at it.

*Which you still fail to prove that Goku's speed >>>>> WW. So yes WW is fast enough or faster than Goku.*

technically u still haven't either, considering if we use your images for our purposes u will downplay them for us.  every single WW database or document will either say superspeed or mach speed, when they talk of flash they say light speed, superman at 99% light speed.  when u see IT, light speed.  oh yeah in that statement u just said WW is faster than goku.
*
Goku push a moutain apart isn't filler because it was in the Japanese version also, what's filler is Vegeta blowing up planet Arila (since that episode doesn't even exsist in the Japanese version or original Manga). And if Goku didn't have that feat, it whould be noway to no just how strong he is, since there wasn't alot of strength feats shown in the manga. That was his highest strength feat. WW losing to Strom isn't cannon, it's a crossover, and was fan voted. Do you think Wolverine can Lobo? Because Lobo lost to him in a crossover.*

well i don't think superman can beat thor considering thor carries superman weakness but didn't use it once in the comic, but i bet u'll probably say otherwise.  stop talkin bout this difference between japan and american anime, it was FILLER period.  america didn't disect the episode and say "hmmmmmmm lets have him push a mountain".  i've said on several ocassions, u're not gonna see speed or strength feats bein calculated because only DC does crap like that.


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## icy_tony (Dec 9, 2005)

*To all the goku haters*

OK, u have ur points that WW is, at max speed, mach 10. givin u that, u also say she doged the bullets wif hand cuffs, there were only like 20 bullets. Goku, from the WARRIOR race of the MOST powerful beings in the universe, cant beat superman or WW. 

Yes he can. point blank, no questions asked, and i will back up this statement with ample evidence.
1) in dragonball, fights tien, moves his arms to lok like six arms, he was 10. 
2) in dragonball z, fights frezia, fights a very physical fight, gets his ass handed to him, yet he still comes back fo the win.
3) dragonball z, fights cell, at a disadvantage, fights to his fullest, people cant see them because they were moving FASTER than the eye could see, even some of the z fighters had a hard time keeping up. 
4) dragonball z, fights pikkon, gets hit by thunder flash attack 2 times, still wins(ruled ring out, but he won)
5) dragonball z, fights vegeta, his lost energy enough to feed buu, extremely physical fight, ends in a draw.
6) powers up to ssj 3, draws clouds in from around the world
7) dbz, goes to new namec at the speed of LIGHT to get a new guardian before the cell games start.
8) fights kid buu, eventually wins, gets ass handed to him numerous times, still manages to make extremely large spirit bomb.

so for everyone who thinks goku is weaker than superman and WW, watch the dbz series again and see for ur self, that goku is the man and WW gets her ass handed to her if goku goes all out. also goku blew up the sun in cooler movie, i think.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

good points icy_tony, just don't bring up movies cause people whine, even though i say time and time again that power wise they are kept in the parameters of the DBZ universe.  but he didn't blow up the sun in the cooler movie, he shot cooler with a kamehameha from earth to a star, he got to the star pretty quick considering energy blasts in DBZ don't move at least light speed, right bullet


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## korican04 (Dec 9, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> good points icy_tony, just don't bring up movies cause people whine, even though i say time and time again that power wise they are kept in the parameters of the DBZ universe.  but he didn't blow up the sun in the cooler movie, he shot cooler with a kamehameha from earth to a star, he got to the star pretty quick considering energy blasts in DBZ don't move at least light speed, right bullet


oh goodness, if you want to bring those movies into this, then you should see when cooler first appeared. He shot goku in the back with some little eye lasers and goku was out for the entire movie until the end when he was revived by a senzu bean. yeah way to go goku.lol


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## unknowndanex (Dec 9, 2005)

lol, thats a good point, but cooler was rather shocked that anybody could survive that blast.  it was a piercer.  but, good point none the less


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## ~Kaio-Cam~ (Dec 10, 2005)

who said that energy blast didnt pack a powerful punch... besides if Superman was hit by that type of beam, it prolly would have went right through him like a wet napkin


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## BladeofTheChad (Dec 10, 2005)

Anybody remember the Wizard special where Goku kicked Superman's ass? Sure, Prime would rape Goku and so would Pre-Crisis...bt Post...Hell fucking no.


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## Viciousness (Dec 10, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> He could have beaten Fat Buu, but they was still equals. Gotenks actually whould have won if he hadn't goofed around; he was about to finish S. Buu off, but he turned back into his normal stat before that could happen.



Right.....go ahead and beleive Gotenks who thought every new technique he whipped out was going to finally obliterate Buu. News flash: NONE OF THEM DID, and neither was this one. Buu tells Gohan after he shows up that he was toying around and waiting for him to show up. If he was serious he couldve absorbed Gotenks a while ago, even if Gotenks could knock him around a bit.



> He found there energy signals and as soon as he did, he took off. That was just to prove that they aren't so fast for WW.



If he knew their exact location why does he later say "Found you" in the scans you posted??? he had a vauge idea what direction they were in but probably wasnt even going near full speed. Like unknowndaneX said, Super Buu was cocky, and even claimed to toy around with Gotenks himself. 



> I said there blasts aren't light, as I've proven already. WW dodge energy blasts, but does that make light speed or something? No.


What have you proved? Theres nothing in the DC universe showing those blasts she dodged where lightspeed, but Roshis blast that took out the moon obviously was, as were all the stray blasts that cause planetary explosions in the background when dodged. Not all energy attacks are lightspeed Ive already said that. The Kienzan definately isnt ever lightspeed. But the DBZ characters have dodged lightspeed blasts before in close quarter combat.



> Spiderman has dodged energy blasts countless of times, it's nothing new to him.



And even if they are lightspeed, he only has to move as fast as a HUMAN can aim them to dodge in the examples you posted. Just like Kenshin explained himself dodging gunfire.




> Toriyama was the one that did the Japanese version also, which is just as cannon as the manga.



Where are you getting this from? Toriyama obviously didnt create the Japanese anime and its filler! he criticizes it in several interviews! what part of this dont you understand!? You dont know what youre talking about, you thought the US animated new episodes like the Arlia one, dont speak on the anime being cannon if you obviously dont know what you are talking about with regards to the creation of the anime.





> Since was it stated that Gotenk could go Mach 230? Where is your proof that any DBZ character is even faster than mach 3? Goku has never fought S. Buu, only Gotenks and Mystic Gohan. Oh and WW isn't mach 3, you're the only one that's trying to decrease her in speed, when the scans proves that she's much faster.



Umm based on how fast he flew around the world and calculations as I explained earlier Gotenks would have to be at least mach 230, and that wasnt even in SSJ3 form. And Gotenks fought and got his ass whooped by Fat Buu before too, in non SSJ3 form. Your scans dont prove shes above mach 3 as Ive said. Im reasonable and willing to beleive shes above it but even the most lenient sites Ive found put her at mach 10 max, and nothing youve shown has proved them wrong.



> Did you read my whole post? I said that Goku pushing the moutain apart was also in the oringinal Japanese anime, which makes it cannon.



The anime isnt canon..the case is closed you cant even argue this.



> No, the animated JLA cartoon isn't cannon, only the comics. WB is people who does the series, not DC. Goku wasn't toned down, Goku has never even done a feat like that; that was the biggest strength feat hes done in DBZ.



Thats definately debatable, and the only reason you could make that argument is because Goku doesnt really go around doing strength feats throughout DBZ. whens the last time you remember him doing something before that based on physical strenth? training in 100x earth gravity way before he was strong enough to go ssj or something? or holding up tons of waights in base form in the afterlife? Reasonably from the manga Goku's not going to be that weak that he'd struggle to push a mountain apart, but the anime is full of inconsistent errors.





> I'm not being unreasonable,:S  you said WW was slower than Goku, I said she isn't and that you bring proof that he's faster than her.
> 
> Again Gotenks (who was able to fight with S. Buu when Goku couldn't) is >> Goku



Get out of here with that argument. Any reasonable person would say based on this deductive argument Goku must be way faster than mach 3. Goku says that because he's rational and knows he wouldve lost eventually, he was blowing up kid buu left and right even and couldnt obliterate him. If hes strong enough to knock Super Buu around but not to beat him of course hes not going to want to go out there and fight him while leaving huge unconcious power level people around for Super Buu to absorb as well as Vegeta.
You cant argue that Gotenks is so much above Goku that his speed should be 100x greater, even when ssj vs goku's ssj3? do I need to repost the quote for you, from the creator of dragonballs own mouth:

"Nirazaki: I know that a lot of people want to hear more about fusion. With Gotenkusu now in the story, will he play that big of a role? And most of all, is he stronger than Son Goku himself?

Toriyama-san: Well I dont know yet. Ive planned some things with Gotenkusu, but he wont be the focus of the entire saga. Youll see as things develop. As for their strength, Gotenkusu is a little bit stronger, but you wouldnt notice a difference. Still, Son Goku will always be the most skilled martial artist! (Smiles) But Gotenkusu will not be the only person to go higher than son Goku. "


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## Bullet (Dec 10, 2005)

icy_tony said:
			
		

> OK, u have ur points that WW is, at max speed, mach 10. givin u that, u also say she doged the bullets wif hand cuffs, there were only like 20 bullets. Goku, from the WARRIOR race of the MOST powerful beings in the universe, cant beat superman or WW.
> 
> Yes he can. point blank, no questions asked, and i will back up this statement with ample evidence.
> 1) in dragonball, fights tien, moves his arms to lok like six arms, he was 10.
> ...



1. All this doesn't prove that hes faster than WW, only that hes faster than the people who's looking. 

2. Again what does this have to do with the thread?

3. Look at post 1.

4. WW gets hit by Superman, was hit by Zoom that knocked her across contry, she's been shot in the face by energy blasts and was hit from space back to Earth by Superman and continued to fight too. Her durabilty is high indeed! 

5. What's the point of this?:S 

6. Look at #5

7. By using IT, which isn't his own speed (and don't forget he can't survive in space either)

8. He lost to Kid Buu and need help (Fat Buu and Vegeta) to pull off the Spirit Bomb (which also whould mean getting outside help since it's not his own energy in a fight). Again, this proves what?:S 

And I watch DBZ the show and have read the manga too also. Oh and Goku didn't blow up the sun Either, if you have to lie just for your character could have a better chance of winning, than maybe you shouldn't debate.


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## Viciousness (Dec 10, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Again, WW being to keep up with DCs speedsters on several occasions only proves that she's not as slow as you think.


right..when they werent going all out. Thats like me saying since captain boomerang gave flash a hard time when flash was holding back, he attacks at mach 500 or something. Where is the logic to your statements.



> Goku did alot of trianning, but still doesn't prove how strong he is does it?:



but a statement from the words of toriyama does. which is UnknowndaneX's point



> Energy blasts are an energy blasts, are you trying to say that the energy blasts in DBZ is much faster than any other energy blasts?  Again Spiderman dodges them all the time. How fast do think the DBZ charaster energy blasts are? Because they aren't light speed.



If they blow up the moon and other planets in the background in a single frame that couldnt have taken more than one second oh yes they are. And blasts that have done that have been dodged before. Not all blasts in DB are the same speed as Ive already said.



> I don't go by US episodes, like I said, i only go by the Japanese version of the anime and the original manga.  Toriyama did do the anime also, he stats himself that once his manga became more popular he turned it into an anime.



Toei studios did the anime. Go to any DB board and ask them if you dont beleive me. Toriyama was hardly involved at alll except very rarely like with movie 9. And there are interview quotes proving it.
You dont know what youre talking about.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 10, 2005)

*Again, WW being to keep up with DCs speedsters on several occasions only proves that she's not as slow as you think.*

ok since they were holding back, tell me how fast do u think the speedsters were goin, especially flash in that pic considering batman could see the fight.

*Goku did alot of trianning, but still doesn't prove how strong he is does it?:*

well u'll never know by numbers cause Toriyama doesn't do crap like that for the 1000th time but he did say that Goku is based off of Superman.  so go off of that.

*Gohan was beating the crap out S. Buu until he absorbed Gotenks, Gotenks whould beaten S. Buu if hadn't wasted all of his time goofing around. It doesn't matter though, because all of them was more powerful than Goku but Fat Buu (because he was equal to an ssj3).*

when u referred to S.Buu u showed us the pic when he absorbed gohan, most people refer to that version when referring to S.Buu.  Fat Buu wasn't equal to SSJ3 he got his ass kicked and Goku was there just to test him out cause he limited his time on earth considerably by going SSJ3, and that transformation is much more powerful in the afterworld.  and toriyama described SSJ3 as unlimited power in the afterworld.

*Considering that WW has shown to keep up with some of DC fastest being, porves that she shouldn't have any problems fighting with a Goku.*

not necessarily, unless Goku held back like all the other speedsters did, it appears she has to get a handicap.

*
Energy blasts are an energy blasts, are you trying to say that the energy blasts in DBZ is much faster than any other energy blasts? Again Spiderman dodges them all the time. How fast do think the DBZ charaster energy blasts are? Because they aren't light speed.*

all energy blasts are not the same.  DBZ's energy blasts must be light speed considering the Final Flash blasted from Earth and blew up another planet very fast, a planet most likely light years away.  so that blast was most likely above the speed of light, a blasts that cell barely dodged.  VEGETA WAS SUPPOSED TO WIN 

*I don't go by US episodes, like I said, i only go by the Japanese version of the anime and the original manga. Toriyama did do the anime also, he stats himself that once his manga became more popular he turned it into an anime.*

Toriyama turned over the rights for the anime, if u look at the credits and his own source of credit for work.  he is the creator and did the story for the manga, and for anime he has credit as orginal creator (cause its his manga) and consultant.
*
That were holding back, the point I was trying to make again, was that she's not slow compared to DCs speedsters. They may be faster, but she isn't so slow that she could get speed biltz unless they start to hit light speed. Jesse Quick is light speed, who WW was still able to keep up with, that proves that she's not at all slow.*

she's not slow compared to DC's speedsters who hold back ok.  once again, i guess WW needs a handicap.

*No I won't. I get my feats from actually reading her comics, not by going to some random website like you do. I never said WW was faster than Goku, I only asked you to prove that hes faster than her, since you keep saying that she's slower than him without proving it.*

here's what u said by just speaking and not images:
1.  Japanese and US Dragonball Z anime were different, (the only difference is that they cut the Japanese version for content cause they intended the show for kids)
2.  Goku is mach 1-2 speed
3.  they're energy blasts aren't speed of light
4.  accused me of using websites

i didn't use website info, i go off of what i know, and i can't back it up with images cause my older comics are at home and i'm in college.  i referred to the one's DY said he got his info from, and i will not doubt they're credibility until i see something that has her going faster than that.  don't keep talkin bout her and speedsters cause according to u they have to hold back.  and if u say that WW is fast because she keeps up with speedsters only until the hit light speed, but then say goku is only mach 1-2, aren't u saying he's slower than her?  common sense says yes


*Well this isn't a Superman vs. Thor thread, so no comment on this. And the American version had alot of filler, it was far from being anything like the original Japanese anime or manga.*

well i was using that cause u brought up the crossover issue.  japan had filler too, where the hell u get info from.  DBZ chapters were relatively short so they had to fit 20 min. of animation per episode, so there was filler in the anime period to push time and explore other aspects of the DBZ universe, for example:  vegeta, nappa, and raditz knew frieza destroyed their planet in the anime, yet in the manga vegeta didn't find out til Dodoria told him on namek.  the afterworld tournament between the cell and buu saga.  they wanted to explain certain things that the manga didn't.  thats why there is filler in the anime, i will not separate the two cause THEY ARE THE SAME!!!!!!!!!


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## unknowndanex (Dec 10, 2005)

bullet we are not saying that during buu saga goku was stronger, we're saying he gets stronger than him after the time skip.  if u don't agree that goku gets stronger as he trains, then there's no point of arguing cause u would just be spitting out foolishness.


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## Bullet (Dec 10, 2005)

*ok since they were holding back, tell me how fast do u think the speedsters were goin, especially flash in that pic considering batman could see the fight.*

If You mean like keeping up with Jesse Quick twice (who was surprised, fighting Superman at high speeds, serching around the world, and was able to adabt to a Flash that was holding back; then yeah, she's more than capable of fighting Goku. Can you prove that Goku could even do the speed feats I've shown her to do or prove that hes faster than her? 

*well u'll never know by numbers cause Toriyama doesn't do crap like that for the 1000th time but he did say that Goku is based off of Superman.  so go off of that.*

I don't know what you're talking about here.:S 

*when u referred to S.Buu u showed us the pic when he absorbed gohan, most people refer to that version when referring to S.Buu.  Fat Buu wasn't equal to SSJ3 he got his ass kicked and Goku was there just to test him out cause he limited his time on earth considerably by going SSJ3, and that transformation is much more powerful in the afterworld.  and toriyama described SSJ3 as unlimited power in the afterworld.*

S. Buu (the one with Evil Buu and Fat Buu combined), was no match for Mystic Gohan. Fat was matching ssj3 Goku in speed and power, Goku (Goku even admit this) could have won though because he was more skilled. The transformation wasn't more powerful in the afterworld, it just took up much more energy since he was mortal.

*not necessarily, unless Goku held back like all the other speedsters did, it appears she has to get a handicap.*

Goku isn't as fast as the other speedsters, so WW whould be fine against him. And you still have yet to prove that he's faster than her also.

*all energy blasts are not the same.  DBZ's energy blasts must be light speed considering the Final Flash blasted from Earth and blew up another planet very fast, a planet most likely light years away.  so that blast was most likely above the speed of light, a blasts that cell barely dodged.  VEGETA WAS SUPPOSED TO WIN *

There blasts aren't light speed. And Cell didn't try to dodge the blasts, instead he stood there, since Vegeta dared him too (Cell was just trying to prove to Vegeta that he was below him in power).

*Toriyama turned over the rights for the anime, if u look at the credits and his own source of credit for work.  he is the creator and did the story for the manga, and for anime he has credit as orginal creator (cause its his manga) and consultant.*

Toriyama did the Japanese show later after he finish the manga.

*she's not slow compared to DC's speedsters who hold back ok.  once again, i guess WW needs a handicap.*

Did Jesse say she was holding back, when WW twice was able to keep up with her? 


*here's what u said by just speaking and not images:
1.  Japanese and US Dragonball Z anime were different, (the only difference is that they cut the Japanese version for content cause they intended the show for kids)
2.  Goku is mach 1-2 speed
3.  they're energy blasts aren't speed of light
4.  accused me of using websites*

1. Correct. And don't forget that they added alot of filler in the US version. 

*i didn't use website info, i go off of what i know, and i can't back it up with images cause my older comics are at home and i'm in college.  i referred to the one's DY said he got his info from, and i will not doubt they're credibility until i see something that has her going faster than that.  don't keep talkin bout her and speedsters cause according to u they have to hold back.  and if u say that WW is fast because she keeps up with speedsters only until the hit light speed, but then say goku is only mach 1-2, aren't u saying he's slower than her?  common sense says yes*

I never said Goku was mach 1 or 2, I asked you to prove that hes faster than WW. I also don't think you read her comics because you randomly put her at mach 3, which she's faster than.


*well i was using that cause u brought up the crossover issue.  japan had filler too, where the hell u get info from.  DBZ chapters were relatively short so they had to fit 20 min. of animation per episode, so there was filler in the anime period to push time and explore other aspects of the DBZ universe, for example:  vegeta, nappa, and raditz knew frieza destroyed their planet in the anime, yet in the manga vegeta didn't find out til Dodoria told him on namek.  the afterworld tournament between the cell and buu saga.  they wanted to explain certain things that the manga didn't.  thats why there is filler in the anime, i will not separate the two cause THEY ARE THE SAME!!!!!!!!!*

I never brought up the crossover issue, you did. You said Storm beat WW, so I simply said that crossovers don't since there fan voted. 

That what I'm talking about, in the US version there were alot of Filler and badly dubed lines.

Look at how different the Japanese anime show is from the US version.

Here's the Japanese version episode list. Notice that Episode 7 doesn't have planet Arila in it.

[Nanashi]Eureka_seveN_-_20_[87266CB5].avi

And here's the US version

[Nanashi]Eureka_seveN_-_20_[87266CB5].avi


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## BladeofTheChad (Dec 10, 2005)

DAMNIT LISTEN...Anybody remember the Wizard special where Goku kicked Superman's ass? Sure, Prime would rape Goku and so would Pre-Crisis...bt Post...Hell fucking no.


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## Bullet (Dec 10, 2005)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> DAMNIT LISTEN...Anybody remember the Wizard special where Goku kicked Superman's ass? Sure, Prime would rape Goku and so would Pre-Crisis...bt Post...Hell fucking no.



No you listen, Wizard isn't cannon, if it didn't come from DC then it's not cannon period.


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## yummysasuke (Dec 10, 2005)

Goku would so win this...


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## Bullet (Dec 10, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> bullet we are not saying that during buu saga goku was stronger, we're saying he gets stronger than him after the time skip.  if u don't agree that goku gets stronger as he trains, then there's no point of arguing cause u would just be spitting out foolishness.



I never said that Goku doesn't get stronger as he trains.:S


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## Bullet (Dec 10, 2005)

yummysasuke said:
			
		

> Goku would so win this...




How please?:


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## konflikti (Dec 10, 2005)

I still don't understand why you keep coming back with the speed of those blasts. Toriyama apparently didn't really think about speeds when he was doing them, since they make no sense. For Toriyama, the concept of speed seems rather random overall. The speed feats of DB crew are mostly to amaze the audience, not to depict how fast they actually move. If you really want to consider that since the moon is destroyed in only one panel by Roshi, you should also consider that Earth should go batshit insane after the moon has been destroyed. Toriyama didn't care about that shit. He wanted to make a manga that would amaze it's audience and apparently succeeded.

But the thing is, this all takes away from the credibility of feats in DB. Same way as you're complaining about DC speedsters needing to hold back in order to WW being able to keep up with them, we could imply that Goku SSJ3 isn't any faster than Piccolo in DB for dashing in Nappa's blasts way, since the concept of energy blasts hasn't really changed since then. Of course, it would be logical to think that Goku is a lot faster than that.



> DAMNIT LISTEN...Anybody remember the Wizard special where Goku kicked Superman's ass? Sure, Prime would rape Goku and so would Pre-Crisis...bt Post...Hell fucking no.


No-one cares about Wizard, unless by chance they happen to be right.


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## yummysasuke (Dec 10, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> How please?:


 
Well, he can turn into Super Saiyan (don't know how to spell), which can go to the extent of level 4, which is the strongest ever. Then he can shoot out them energy balls, has the speed, can fly, can do that teleportation thing and just has the determination.

(I'm sorry if the description of things suck, because I've watched the chinese version only, and not the english one, so I don't know what things are called in english.)


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## Viciousness (Dec 10, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> True Gotenks techniques were childish, but he was still more powerful than Goku. Buu was lying also, he whould have lost if Gotenks time whouldn't have ran out.



Yeah, because he had such a hard time absorbing him after all. Buu says he absorbs Gotenks to face Gohan because he had to be the strongest. Meaning he never considered Gotenks stronger than himself and capable of obliterating him completely to begin with. Goku says hes blown up Kid Buu several times during their fight. But Buu is incredibly hard to kill dont you understand. If Goku had just waltzed out there to face Buu with Vegeta and a bunch of unconcious powerhouses worst case scenario Buu would absorb everyone but Goku and then Kill Goku. Best case is Goku beats down on Buu and runs out of energy getting killed in the end. Goku realizes this. Gotenks is just cocky, as are all fusions. But you hardly seem familiar with the series if youre defending Toriyama creating the series till the end as well as episodes being made from scratch in the US.



> How could he have gotten there if he didn't locked on to there KI? He knew where he was going. Note that this happen when he absorbed both Gohan and Gotenks too.


 He felt the rough area it was coming from. If he knew exactly where they were then why the surprise and saying "Found You" later. Unless hes playing around and not going anywhere near full speed to begin with but instead toying with them like I said.



> None of there energy blasts are light speed.



Explain to me how a blast reaches the moon in under two seconds if its less than light speed. How to stars get blown up in the distance from blasts in a frame that couldnt have been more than a couple seconds. Of course those energy blasts are lightspeed and above...




> I never said that the lasers were light speed, what I was trying to prove, was that energy blasts fired in comics and manga aren't light speed and that characters slower than WW and Goku has dodged them before.



Great job of proving it when the guy in your pic says its a lightspeed blast. Spidey dodged by seeing where he aimed at. And even so you cant prove that all blasts from comics and DB are the same speed when its obvious even energy attacks in DB dont travel the same speed. Look at the Kienzan vs the Makankozappo!



> No, you're the one that don't know what your talking about. Toriyama did both, the Japanese version and Manga. The planet Arila wasn't cannon, it was only in the US version, not the Japanese anime or Manga, I know what I'm talking about.



Youre right about one thing. The planet Arlia wasnt cannon. THATS BECAUSE THE FREAKING ANIME ISNT CANNON TO BEGIN WITH. Do I have to type in all caps for it to get through to you? Ive known for years how the series was handled. Toriyama's biggest involvement in the anime other than movie 9 was in the hiring of the original voice actors. Once again you dont know what youre talking about . The episode on Arlia was in both versions only the US switched the episode order up and deleted an episode. It was 7 in the US and 11 in Japan. Ive known this all along but since you wont listen to me to begin with perhaps these links will get through to you: 
Link removed

As far as Toriyama not making the anime I dont even think that needs justifying. Even some of the least knowledgable people on db boards about the seriies are aware of that.

"Akira-san remembers watching Dragonball and Dragonball Z while eating dinner or together with his own young son, he and his son enjoyed the show ,but largely kept his own input to the show to a minimum."

[Nanashi]Eureka_seveN_-_20_[87266CB5].avi

"I don't tend to interfere with the animators process. I wanted a fantastic story, so I did tell them that, but the basic production was all up to them. I might put in a small word where I thought it'd really matter." Instead, the animation actually ended up having an affect on the look of Toriyama's own manga. "When I talked to the animation director Toyo'o Ashida and saw his drawings, I thought that it was more effective to depict fights with sharper lines," Toriyama says. "Until then, I had tended to use subtler colorings, but I changed to more defined colors, like in the animation. I learned that you can get the same effects as gradated colors if the coloring is done right. So I was able to do sharp colors, which were more suitable for a boys' magazine, and learned an easier way of coloring at the same time. This was the influence from both the animation and Mr. Ashida."

Link removed

Ive seen others too where Toriyama wasnt familiar with anime only characters, was displeased with how they handled something etc. How is it cannon if it directly contradicts the manga itself? The anime had to change things it said repeatedly based on what Toriyama later did, and the Legendary Super Saiyajin thing was explained differently etc. FOR THE LAST TIME ITS NOT CANNON. I dont know what legitimate source you got to support that argument...



> Again how do you know that he was going mach 230? You do realize if he was going that fast, he whould faster than light, right?



have you taken algebra yet? Because I know my math and passed Calc 4 a long time ago. But since you wont beleive anything I have to say to begin with Ill post another source this time

Light travels at a speed of 186000 miles a second or 700 million miles an hour.


Sound is about 700 mph. since when is 700x230 greater than 700 million??



> Goku does do strength feats. Him push the moutain is one of his biggest feats. Goku wiegths aboth 137 pounds right, so 100x gravity whould mean that he only was carrying 6 tons. That's nothing to WW. He couldn't even lift 40 tons in the after life (ten tons on each limb) , he had to go ssj in oder to do that. So again, the moutain he push apart was his greatest feat.



He was training in 100x gravity to the point of being fully mobile. And thats nothing compared to what hes capable of in ssj3 either. Do you know what the gravity was in the afterlife? regardless even SSJ2 was ridiculously stronger than SSJ, to the point of slicing through SSJ level characters with one hit.Goku hasnt done any strength feats that show anything near what hes capable of. Maybe if DB went on for as many decades as  DC comics youd have some legitimate ones though, and I assure you theyd be much more than ripping apart a mountain.




> I can argue that, did he show any where in the show or manga to be faster than mach 3 in the show? He's weak enough to knocked around by S. Buu. Are you sure you're looking at the same show I am?


Obviously not if you think Arlia wasnt a part of the Japanese version. Anyway he said they couldnt beat him so youre jumping to the assumption that Super Buu would beat him around like a ragdoll in a matter of seconds, despite the fact that he got right in Super Buu's face twice now (other time was just before Gohan got absorbed) would he really get in the face of someone thats going to slap him silly? all you know from his quote is Goku realized he couldnt beat Super Buu ultimately, just like Gotenks couldn't. And having Vegeta and a bunch of unconcious fighters around would only make matters worse. That definately doesnt contradict Toriyama putting Goku slightly below Gotenks. And definately not 100 some x below Gotenks....




> I never said that Gotenks was far greater than Goku, but the way Goku was afraid to fight S. Buu, proves that Gotenks is much more powerful.


If Gotenks isnt far greater, how is he going to move 100x as fast???
He was scared to go out and fight them because he knew theyd lose in the end. Vegeta wouldnt add anything and would get absorbed, while Goku couldnt obliterate Buu in the first place just like Gotenks, and then the earth would be doomed. Goku is a seasoned fighter, not some cocky brat. He knew what he was talking about, that doesnt make him <<<<<<<Gotenks like youre suggesting. Toriyama said he was slightly below and Ive given definitive proof.




> And this still doesn't prove that he was more powerful than Gotenks.



It proves he was barely any weaker pretimeskip (obviously hes stronger post). Anyone would realize that. Like I said youre in denial and making wrong point after wrong point just like with the Cannon and Arlia points. When are you going to realize youre WRONG?


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## unknowndanex (Dec 10, 2005)

*I don't know what you're talking about here.*

AKIRA TORIYAMA BASED GOKU OFF OF SUPERMAN AS FAR AS HIS POWER AND ABILITIES ARE CONCERNED.  GOKU STARTED OFF AS A MARTIAL ARTS VERSION OF SUPERMAN FOR ASIA

*S. Buu (the one with Evil Buu and Fat Buu combined), was no match for Mystic Gohan. Fat was matching ssj3 Goku in speed and power, Goku (Goku even admit this) could have won though because he was more skilled. The transformation wasn't more powerful in the afterworld, it just took up much more energy since he was mortal.*

it was more powerful considering Toriyama described it as unlimited power there, your DBZ knowledge is pretty low.

*Goku isn't as fast as the other speedsters, so WW whould be fine against him. And you still have yet to prove that he's faster than her also.*

u haven't proved WW is faster than him or any other speedster.  DY calculated a base gotenks trip around the world, BASE gotenks.  Toriyama said it in the statement that there was a small gap between goku and gotenks. this is based on toriyama, so stop making stupid remarks going against the creator about gotenks >>>goku.

*There blasts aren't light speed. And Cell didn't try to dodge the blasts, instead he stood there, since Vegeta dared him too (Cell was just trying to prove to Vegeta that he was below him in power).*

not really Cell leaned to the left so that he wouldn't take direct impact, considering the blast reached another planet light years away in seconds, means it did move faster than the speed of light.  u enjoy running off a the mouth.  cell didn't do it to show 
vegeta he was weak, cause the guy had to regenerate, if he wanted to show vegeta he was weak he would've taken the blast head on instead of looking up in fear of it.
*
Toriyama did the Japanese show later after he finish the manga.*

you are obviously the only who believes this.  toriyama created gregory and consulted for the show.  the show was done by TOEI ANIMATION STUDIO.  toriyama most of the time gave his thoughts over the phone, but it was TOEI who did the anime and toriyama was consultant.

*1. Correct. And don't forget that they added alot of filler in the US version.*

it appears all u know about is DC comics from the threads i've seen u in, your DBZ knowledge is pretty mediocre.

*I never said Goku was mach 1 or 2, I asked you to prove that hes faster than WW. I also don't think you read her comics because you randomly put her at mach 3, which she's faster than.*

*And how do you know that Goku is even faster than mach 1 or 2?  *

why would u ask me this question, if u thought he was faster yourself, and don't say u were waiting for me to prove it cause people only want proof when they don't believe something.  so u must believe that goku is not faster than mach 1 or 2.  sorry though, valden brought it up first though.  but u sure as hell took up for the statement.

*
I never brought up the crossover issue, you did. You said Storm beat WW, so I simply said that crossovers don't since there fan voted.

That what I'm talking about, in the US version there were alot of Filler and badly dubed lines.

Look at how different the Japanese anime show is from the US version.

Here's the Japanese version episode list. Notice that Episode 7 doesn't have planet Arila in it.

[Nanashi]Eureka_seveN_-_20_[87266CB5].avi

And here's the US version

[Nanashi]Eureka_seveN_-_20_[87266CB5].avi*

i never said anything about Storm beating WW.  oh yeah thanks for proving yourself wrong with the episodes.  japanese episode 11 is US episode 7.
Jap Ep 11:  The Strongest Saiyan Awakes
US Ep 7:  Trouble on Arlia

they're the same eps, read the comments above that the US is fused and cut like i said.

DBZ knowledge.........................ZERO
i see you're using websites


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## unknowndanex (Dec 10, 2005)

konflikti said:
			
		

> I still don't understand why you keep coming back with the speed of those blasts. Toriyama apparently didn't really think about speeds when he was doing them, since they make no sense. For Toriyama, the concept of speed seems rather random overall. The speed feats of DB crew are mostly to amaze the audience, not to depict how fast they actually move. If you really want to consider that since the moon is destroyed in only one panel by Roshi, you should also consider that Earth should go batshit insane after the moon has been destroyed. Toriyama didn't care about that shit. He wanted to make a manga that would amaze it's audience and apparently succeeded.
> 
> But the thing is, this all takes away from the credibility of feats in DB. Same way as you're complaining about DC speedsters needing to hold back in order to WW being able to keep up with them, we could imply that Goku SSJ3 isn't any faster than Piccolo in DB for dashing in Nappa's blasts way, since the concept of energy blasts hasn't really changed since then. Of course, it would be logical to think that Goku is a lot faster than that.
> 
> ...




what the hell are you talkin about?????????

we've already said on numerous occassions that not all blast are the same.  the speed feats in DBZ are done because that happens to be in the storyline and DBZ is a fast paced action show.  now tryin to amaze people is showin the feat first and then putting in random numbers to show how what they doin is so great.  don't compare DC to DBZ, cause thats apples to chicken.  except for goku being the asian superman

and we basically already have said in other post on several ocassions that this is not REAL LIFE, THIS IS FANTASY.  if thats the case WW shouldn't be as strong as she is, or fast, and going that fast or being that strong would cause her body to break considering the body can't take that much strength and speed that is showed in comics and DBZ.  thats thrown out the window though.

what you said about speedsters holding back and SSJ3 Goku and piccolo didn't make one bit of sense.  i'm sayin that Bullet showed me a pic of WW keeping up with speedsters and adapting and i actually gave him props for showing me her speed.  then when i said that leaves flash vulnerable for flash vs goku thread, he downplayed the images and said the speedsters were holding back.  now i'm tryin to figure out which way of contradicting himself does he feel like going, cause either way he is contradicting himself left and right and did it again with the stupid self-destroying websites he showed me.  how the hell does SSJ3 Goku, and Piccolo vs Nappa relate to that to WW and speedsters.  has piccolo and nappa come into combating contact with SSJ3 goku let alone SSJ2.  WW is actually in combating contact and racing these speedsters.


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## Viciousness (Dec 10, 2005)

^to add, if bullet is saying The speedsters are holding back against Wonder Woman, how does his scan prove Wonder Womans speed anymore than me posting a batle of captain Boomerang vs flash not going all out at all, prove captain boomerang can move mach 500 or something? It basically seems like theyve slowed down to a pace that would give her a challenge and at most theyre surprised because she out does what they expected. Not because she can do anything at all near what theyre capable of.  Theres not much you can conclude from that. But just about every site Ive checked has concluded her speed to be mach 10 at the max.


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## konflikti (Dec 10, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> what the hell are you talkin about?????????
> 
> we've already said on numerous occassions that not all blast are the same.  the speed feats in DBZ are done because that happens to be in the storyline and DBZ is a fast paced action show.


My point is, that now you claim to think the same way as I do, but base Gokus speed on the blasts anyway. "Goku can dodge at least light-speed since Roshis Kamehameha hit the moon in 2 seconds." That's the hell. They did dodge those at the beginning of the series, what makes you think they have improved in speed since? Thats the case if you want to judge by the speed of the blasts.

The long debated point of Bullet's with Spiderman, was that you don't need superspeed to dodge light-speed(or whatever) blasts. Then you go high and mighty yelling that what does it have to do it with the situation or telling that Kenshin told that he dodges gun-fire by looking where the gun points. That further proves his point. Why does WW needs such high speeds to dodge ki blasts, since apparently even Kenshin could do that(except the blast radius ;P).

Goku is a dwarf in close combat compared to WW. She hits harder and has more experience. The close-combat is pretty much only thing she has got going for her. Of course she wants to iniate that. How often do we see Goku either ITing continously away and shooting Ki blasts as he goes? Or just running away and shooting? If it comes to HtH, Goku is gonna be in the world of hurt.



			
				DY said:
			
		

> to add, if bullet is saying The speedsters are holding back against Wonder Woman, how does his scan prove Wonder Womans speed anymore than me posting a batle of captain Boomerang vs flash not going all out at all, prove captain boomerang can move mach 500 or something?


This is pretty much where all your debates boil down to. Trying to prove scans and feats wrong. It's a pretty annoying way to debate(I have one friend who debates like that. It's pretty effective, but never leads anywhere). Since, if we turn this into battle of dissaproving the facts and feats of the others, it's either gonna boil down to which character you like more or not gonna end at all. Both have their high and low showings. It's common sense to go by the high showings, since there is no defined version in the first post and we want this fight to be "fair".


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## Bullet (Dec 10, 2005)

*AKIRA TORIYAMA BASED GOKU OFF OF SUPERMAN AS FAR AS HIS POWER AND ABILITIES ARE CONCERNED.  GOKU STARTED OFF AS A MARTIAL ARTS VERSION OF SUPERMAN FOR ASIA*

True he was a big fan of Superman, but check this website out, it talks about Akira Toriyama. [Nanashi]Eureka_seveN_-_20_[87266CB5].avi

*it was more powerful considering Toriyama described it as unlimited power there, your DBZ knowledge is pretty low.*

Where was it stated that ssj3 have unlimted power (I assume that's what you'r4e talking about).


*u haven't proved WW is faster than him or any other speedster.  DY calculated a base gotenks trip around the world, BASE gotenks.  Toriyama said it in the statement that there was a small gap between goku and gotenks. this is based on toriyama, so stop making stupid remarks going against the creator about gotenks >>>goku.*

You havn't proven that Goku is faster than WW. I never said she was faster than the DCs speedsters, only that she was able to keep up with them. WW went around the world too, what's your point. You still havn't proven that Goku is faster than her. Gotenks was stronger than Goku, he was able to fight with S. Buu, a fully powered Goku couldn't. 

*not really Cell leaned to the left so that he wouldn't take direct impact, considering the blast reached another planet light years away in seconds, means it did move faster than the speed of light.  u enjoy running off a the mouth.  cell didn't do it to show 
vegeta he was weak, cause the guy had to regenerate, if he wanted to show vegeta he was weak he would've taken the blast head on instead of looking up in fear of it.*

Again, this doesn't prove that there energy blasts are light speed. Did it show the blast going to a another planet? Vegeta wasn't even able to harm Cell, so Vegeta dared Cell not to move, if Cell wanted to, he could have continued to beat Vegeta down.

*you are obviously the only who believes this.  toriyama created gregory and consulted for the show.  the show was done by TOEI ANIMATION STUDIO.  toriyama most of the time gave his thoughts over the phone, but it was TOEI who did the anime and toriyama was consultant.*

And again, Toriyama was apart of the Japanese anime show (which is far better than the US version).

*it appears all u know about is DC comics from the threads i've seen u in, your DBZ knowledge is pretty mediocre.*

Not true. I know DC, Marvel, some Manga, Image, and Udon. 


*why would u ask me this question, if u thought he was faster yourself, and don't say u were waiting for me to prove it cause people only want proof when they don't believe something.  so u must believe that goku is not faster than mach 1 or 2.  sorry though, valden brought it up first though.  but u sure as hell took up for the statement.*

Again I'm asking you to prove that he's faster than WW. Because right now, she's fast enough to fight with him.

*they're the same eps, read the comments above that the US is fused and cut like i said.

DBZ knowledge.........................ZERO
i see you're using websites*

And again maybe you need to take a look a the websites I've just posted.


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## Bullet (Dec 10, 2005)

yummysasuke said:
			
		

> Well, he can turn into Super Saiyan (don't know how to spell), which can go to the extent of level 4, which is the strongest ever. Then he can shoot out them energy balls, has the speed, can fly, can do that teleportation thing and just has the determination.
> 
> (I'm sorry if the description of things suck, because I've watched the chinese version only, and not the english one, so I don't know what things are called in english.)



Hes going to have to go SSJ2 and above in order to even be a match for her. She could deflect energy blasts, can fly, has the speed, is stronger, can take his punches, and her lasso has some neat tricks.


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## Bullet (Dec 10, 2005)

konflikti said:
			
		

> My point is, that now you claim to think the same way as I do, but base Gokus speed on the blasts anyway. "Goku can dodge at least light-speed since Roshis Kamehameha hit the moon in 2 seconds." That's the hell. They did dodge those at the beginning of the series, what makes you think they have improved in speed since? Thats the case if you want to judge by the speed of the blasts.
> 
> The long debated point of Bullet's with Spiderman, was that you don't need superspeed to dodge light-speed(or whatever) blasts. Then you go high and mighty yelling that what does it have to do it with the situation or telling that Kenshin told that he dodges gun-fire by looking where the gun points. That further proves his point. Why does WW needs such high speeds to dodge ki blasts, since apparently even Kenshin could do that(except the blast radius ;P).
> 
> ...



Nice post! You've just sumed up what I was trying to say.


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## Viciousness (Dec 10, 2005)

konflikti said:
			
		

> This is pretty much where all your debates boil down to. Trying to prove scans and feats wrong. It's a pretty annoying way to debate(I have one friend who debates like that. It's pretty effective, but never leads anywhere). Since, if we turn this into battle of dissaproving the facts and feats of the others, it's either gonna boil down to which character you like more or not gonna end at all. Both have their high and low showings. It's common sense to go by the high showings, since there is no defined version in the first post and we want this fight to be "fair".



Its not proving FEATS are wrong, because the speedsters werent serious by Bullets own words. If Bullet had posted an actual FEAT there would be nothing to prove wrong in the first place. He posted WonderWoman keeping up with the speedsters here, then contradicts himself trying to downplay the image elsewhere showing it was just some random speed that didnt mean anything as to how fast they were. We know Superman can go about the speed of light but when fighting alongside Wonderwoman he also went mach 3. Nothing at all implies the Flashes friend is going all out when racing Wonder Woman, even if shes Supes speed she could very well be going mach 3 just like he was, and people have said numerous times in other threads Superman had to be holding back drastically when facing wonder woman.

A feat would be like Superman flying to Saturns moon in a stated four seconds. This however isnt a high showing at it isnt showing anything substantial at all, and Bullet himself downplayed it to his own benefit.



> The long debated point of Bullet's with Spiderman, was that you don't need superspeed to dodge light-speed(or whatever) blasts. Then you go high and mighty yelling that what does it have to do it with the situation or telling that Kenshin told that he dodges gun-fire by looking where the gun points. That further proves his point. Why does WW needs such high speeds to dodge ki blasts, since apparently even Kenshin could do that(except the blast radius ;P).



Like I said before Spiderman was able to dodge because you have a person moving at Normal HUMAN speed directing those blasts. He said he was going to fire first to begin with. Same with Kenshin, all you have to see is them start to pull the trigger. In DBZ they can redirect the trajectory of blasts and their hand speed is much faster than what a human can see, and very often they release blasts at any time. Kenshin cant dodge a ki blast unless its thrown by a normal human who giives off a signal hes about to shoot it at him, and they dont alter the trajectory of it at all mid flight.

EDIT: To add at the beggining of the series Goku never dodged a full powered Kamehameha from Buff roshi like the one he first at the moon unlike what youre saying. When Radditzu comes to earth hes shocked by the power of their beams in comparison to their powerlevels as well. Roshi's Buff Body Kamehameha was fired with alot of power for the time in the series, as well as speed, plus he had hundreds of years of experience with the technique so in his prime form its going to be loads better than the average blasts being fired back then.
But as the series progressed they definately are dodging light speed or faster blasts, and in some cases you can even see the spacial destruction caused by the blasts once they are dodged.


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## konflikti (Dec 10, 2005)

DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Its not proving FEATS are wrong, because the speedsters werent serious by Bullets own words. If Bullet had posted an actual FEAT there would be nothing to prove wrong in the first place. He posted WonderWoman keeping up with the speedsters here, then contradicts himself trying to downplay the image elsewhere showing it was just some random speed that didnt mean anything as to how fast they were. We know Superman can go about the speed of light but when fighting alongside Wonderwoman he also went mach 3. Nothing at all implies the Flashes friend is going all out when racing Wonder Woman, even if shes Supes speed she could very well be going mach 3 just like he was, and people have said numerous times in other threads Superman had to be holding back drastically when facing wonder woman.


Well, I kinda agree with you here. On the other hand, one of Bullet's scans show that WW catches Jessie when they seem to be moving really really fast(Speed Force barrier?).



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Like I said before Spiderman was able to dodge because you have a person moving at Normal HUMAN speed directing those blasts. He said he was going to fire first to begin with. Same with Kenshin, all you have to see is them start to pull the trigger. In DBZ they can redirect the trajectory of blasts and their hand speed is much faster than what a human can see, and very often they release blasts at any time. Kenshin cant dodge a ki blast unless its thrown by a normal human who giives off a signal hes about to shoot it at him, and they dont alter the trajectory of it at all mid flight.


Yes, but this is a superhuman vs. superhuman match-up, so the comparison is justified. They aren't that far from each other in terms of power.



			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> But as the series progressed they definately are dodging light speed or faster blasts, and in some cases you can even see the spacial destruction caused by the blasts once they are dodged.


Are the speeds ever stated? Concept of speed of blasts in DB is very shaky. I wouldn't judge by them.


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## Viciousness (Dec 10, 2005)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Yes, but this is a superhuman vs. superhuman match-up, so the comparison is justified. They aren't that far from each other in terms of power.



Spiderman has spidey reflexes and is designed to instinctively dodge human punches and the like. He sees where the guy is about to aim and dodges before he throws it.
Theres scenes in DB of the attack not being dodged until after its been fired, and it then causing a twinkle in the distance. 

Also we know shes capable of surviving Superman's pulled punches, but so is Batman for that matter. He threatened to throw a serious punch once post-crisis that could split the moon, and as he was holding back on WW I seriously doubt any of those punches he through would have split the moon. But can Wonder Woman really withstand a planetary destroying blast? a steady stream of them? Can she really keep up with Goku if he's serious. Im still hard pressed to find a site that makes an argument for her going above Mach 10. But logically SSJ3 Goku's going to be faster than Gotenks whos way faster than that to begin with.


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## ~Kaio-Cam~ (Dec 10, 2005)

on the subject... i never got to say what i wanted to say  

Wonderwoman and Goku... two different cartoon series, two different worlds.... when this question pops up, the real question is: Who is potrayed stronger in their own cartoon series. My answer without hesitation would be, would be, Goku. From what we've seen wonderwoman could do, Goku could do the same, or even better. As far as strength, yup. Now moving on to something greater...

Superman vs Goku.... ok... 2 diff. cartoon series, 2 different worlds. Who is potrayed stronger? Goku my friends. From what we've seen superman can do, Goku can do as well or even better. (maybe not the laser eye beams but who knows.) In the DBZ series (fuck dbgt) Goku could, blow up mountains, fall from the atmosphere and survive, of course fly, and everyone has seen dragonball z, so u know where i'm trying to get at. Superman from what i've read/seen is just a very very strong being, not normal compared to human beings. He can fly around the world really fast, survive being hit really hard, and yeah. Well anyway, what i'm trying to say is, Goku is stronger than Superman from what we've all seen. I mean, when Superman punches for real, compare it to when Goku Punches coming for real in his series. Not to mention the fast pace movements when fighting. 

As always though, topics like this (2 different characters from 2 different cartoon series) people will always pick favorites. I know a lot of old school, adults, would choose Superman over Goku simply because of the fact that Superman is "Superman"


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Dec 10, 2005)

Uh... they're comparing the manga/comic versions of Goku and Wonder Woman/Supes, not the cartoons.

Comic Supes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ANY version of Goku. As far as WW goes, it's a more even match-up possibly, but I think WW has the edge in speed and experience, which may be the difference in the fight that tips it in her favor.


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## Jaga (Dec 10, 2005)

show Superman some Kryptonite and hes down... Wonder Women relies on a lasso and her arm band shields to do a lot of damage, take those away and shes just a strong woman

Goku's the most powerful hands down... he doesn't need any tools and he has no weaknesses.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Dec 10, 2005)

Goku has no weaknesses? The guy can't fight at max power for more than 20 minutes. Superman and Wonder Woman don't have that problem. Also, Wonder Woman uses her braclets for protection, not offense, as she's strong enough to not need them to fight.

Finally, Goku's not even the strongest character in his own manga series.

Get the facts right before posting, please.


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2005)

Jaga said:
			
		

> show Superman some Kryptonite and hes down... Wonder Women relies on a lasso and her arm band shields to do a lot of damage, take those away and shes just a strong woman
> 
> Goku's the most powerful hands down... he doesn't need any tools and he has no weaknesses.



Goku rely's on his KI to amp him to levels to fight with other beings, without it, he'll die fast, so what's your point? Using Kryptonite whould mean you need outside help in order to win. WW is a skilled fighter, very fast, durable (not Superman level) and strong, she'll still be a threat without her bands and lasso.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 11, 2005)

*My point is, that now you claim to think the same way as I do, but base Gokus speed on the blasts anyway. "Goku can dodge at least light-speed since Roshis Kamehameha hit the moon in 2 seconds." That's the hell. They did dodge those at the beginning of the series, what makes you think they have improved in speed since? Thats the case if you want to judge by the speed of the blasts.*

because everytime goku finishes training they refer to him being stronger and faster, most notably after gravity training.

*The long debated point of Bullet's with Spiderman, was that you don't need superspeed to dodge light-speed(or whatever) blasts. Then you go high and mighty yelling that what does it have to do it with the situation or telling that Kenshin told that he dodges gun-fire by looking where the gun points. That further proves his point. Why does WW needs such high speeds to dodge ki blasts, since apparently even Kenshin could do that(except the blast radius ;P).

Goku is a dwarf in close combat compared to WW. She hits harder and has more experience. The close-combat is pretty much only thing she has got going for her. Of course she wants to iniate that. How often do we see Goku either ITing continously away and shooting Ki blasts as he goes? Or just running away and shooting? If it comes to HtH, Goku is gonna be in the world of hurt.*

for the first paragraph, i wasn't the one that said that, u are referring to DY and I actually was just saying all energy blasts aren't the same speed.  second paragraph, how can u say that goku is a dwarf compared to wonder woman in close combat, that is just dumb he's the most skilled martial artists in DBZ, WW has not shown that she is that much of a beast compared to Goku.  Goku doesn't IT all day every fight because Toriyama wanted to have a good fight instead of just tryin to out do Marvel comics.  goku is fighting intergallactic beings the same way WW is, you're basically just under the assumption that DC characters are stronger than DBZ when they are not.  goku's fighting speed is crazy, and if WW mixes it up with Goku he would own her.
*
True he was a big fan of Superman, but check this website out, it talks about Akira Toriyama. here*

you really don't understand what u send, they are referring to him writing.  dbz is the only story he WROTE for older audiences, i could've sworn DY sent u an interview with the guy.

*You havn't proven that Goku is faster than WW. I never said she was faster than the DCs speedsters, only that she was able to keep up with them. WW went around the world too, what's your point. You still havn't proven that Goku is faster than her. Gotenks was stronger than Goku, he was able to fight with S. Buu, a fully powered Goku couldn't.*

i'm sorry DY put out Toriyama stating how small of a gap there was between goku and gotenks before the timeskip but u take that up with him.  why do u keep referring to gotenks and goku before the timeskip anyway, we've been talkin bout the comparison after the timeskip that goku is stronger.  u haven't really proved she can keep up with speedsters considering that everytime i refer to that, u make it a point to point out that they are holding back, and even batman saw her fighting flash, so exactly how slow was flash going when he fought WW?
*
Again, this doesn't prove that there energy blasts are light speed. Did it show the blast going to a another planet? Vegeta wasn't even able to harm Cell, so Vegeta dared Cell not to move, if Cell wanted to, he could have continued to beat Vegeta down.*

u know what, considering you know nothing about distances of planets and speeds required to get there i'll just leave it alone cause u obviously just be rambling off.

*And again, Toriyama was apart of the Japanese anime show (which is far better than the US version).*

please can someone vouch that the US is only cut and fused because they meant the show for younger audiences.  that bullets own site has a comment explaining that there is no real difference other than that, please.
*
Again I'm asking you to prove that he's faster than WW. Because right now, she's fast enough to fight with him.*

well considering you haven't, thats just a broken argument because u ignore words and only go off images.

*And again maybe you need to take a look a the websites I've just posted.*

on your websites there are these things called Words on top of the episode list that explains that the US version is cut and fused which is why there are less episodes than japans.  US episode 7 and Japan episode 11 are the same episodes.  that is ridiculous that for sake of argument u will ignore the obvious.
*
Yes, but this is a superhuman vs. superhuman match-up, so the comparison is justified. They aren't that far from each other in terms of power.*

last time i checked, goku was a saiyan.  from planet vegeta the planet with the most powerful warriors in the UNIVERSE.

WW is bein highly overrated here, i was more comfortable when the match-up was between him and superman considering goku is based off him so that makes a good match.  but its obvious yall think DC is just that damn powerful when they're not.


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## BladeofTheChad (Dec 11, 2005)

Alright, Flash Prime ends up taking this fight too.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 11, 2005)

LOL, you trippin me out with this Flash Prime.


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2005)

*i'm sorry DY put out Toriyama stating how small of a gap there was between goku and gotenks before the timeskip but u take that up with him. why do u keep referring to gotenks and goku before the timeskip anyway, we've been talkin bout the comparison after the timeskip that goku is stronger. u haven't really proved she can keep up with speedsters considering that everytime i refer to that, u make it a point to point out that they are holding back, and even batman saw her fighting flash, so exactly how slow was flash going when he fought WW?*

You still havn't proven that Goku is faster than WW.  I've shown her being able to keep up with speedsters (she was even able to catch Jesse Quick), travel around the world (while running), and fought with Superman at high speeds (even though he wasn't in his right mind, she prove to be able to at lease hold her own against him).

*Well considering you haven't, thats just a broken argument because u ignore words and only go off images.*

I've proven mine, you havn't proven anything at all.

*u know what, considering you know nothing about distances of planets and speeds required to get there i'll just leave it alone cause u obviously just be rambling off.*

They didn't show the blasts going to any planet, you made that up, just like you did by saying Gotenks is mach 230, which will make him faster than light.

*for the first paragraph, i wasn't the one that said that, u are referring to DY and I actually was just saying all energy blasts aren't the same speed. second paragraph, how can u say that goku is a dwarf compared to wonder woman in close combat, that is just dumb he's the most skilled martial artists in DBZ, WW has not shown that she is that much of a beast compared to Goku. Goku doesn't IT all day every fight because Toriyama wanted to have a good fight instead of just tryin to out do Marvel comics. goku is fighting intergallactic beings the same way WW is, you're basically just under the assumption that DC characters are stronger than DBZ when they are not. goku's fighting speed is crazy, and if WW mixes it up with Goku he would own her.*

WW can fight at high speeds, she's a beast, she's stronger, and is one of DCs greatest fighters; she shouldn't be underestimated.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 11, 2005)

*You still havn't proven that Goku is faster than WW. I've shown her being able to keep up speedsters (she was even able to catch Jesse Quick), travel around the world (while running), and fought with Superman at high speeds (even though he wasn't in his right mind, she prove to be able to at lease hold her own against him).*

soon as i gave her credit for it u downplayed it and said Jesse held back.
*
I've proven mine, you havn't proven anything at all.*

u haven't proved anything, u showed some images and downplayed them when i said something about Flash.  u honestly don't go through the thread, check what u be saying.

*They didn't show the blasts going to any planet, you made that up, just like you did by saying Gotenks is mach 230, which will make him faster than light.*

and while you're checking why don't check what i say, cause once again DY MADE THAT STATEMENT ABOUT MACH 230!!!!!!!!  and DY has already calculated that that isn't even light speed.

*
WW can fight at high speeds, she's beast, she's stronger, and is one of DCs greatest fighters; she shouldn't be underestimated.*

i'm not underestimating her at all, i'm just confused on her speed cause when i gave u props on showing me her speed u said the speedsters were holding back.  answer the question were they holding back or not.  
about her being stronger and better than goku, thats a disgrace to DBZ period, u should put her in a fight with Piccolo fused w/ Kami.  
and considering Vegeta trained under 400x gravity before even reaching SSJ, is a feat in itself to say they're stronger and faster than WW.

you obviously think DC has the greatest fighters and heroes to ever live, so now i see why u constantly lay out crazy claims like WW lasting with Goku.  DC is the minor leagues, deal with it.


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2005)

*soon as i gave her credit for it u downplayed it and said Jesse held back.
u haven't proved anything, u showed some images and downplayed them when i said something about Flash.  u honestly don't go through the thread, check what u be saying.*

You havn't given her any creadit.:S  I've showed her being able to keep up with DCs speedsters, you havn't shown or proven anything. I never down played anything.


*and while you're checking why don't check what i say, cause once again DY MADE THAT STATEMENT ABOUT MACH 230!!!!!!!!  *

I'm sure you or the other the guy said that, but it wasn't me.



*i'm not underestimating her at all, i'm just confused on her speed cause when i gave u props on showing me her speed u said the speedsters were holding back.  answer the question were they holding back or not.  
about her being stronger and better than goku, thats a disgrace to DBZ period, u should put her in a fight with Piccolo fused w/ Kami.  
and considering Vegeta trained under 400x gravity before even reaching SSJ, is a feat in itself to say they're stronger and faster than WW.*

No, I'm fine with keeping her against Goku at his max, she could possibly beat him. How much does vegeta weigh? It doesn't matter, I'll just use Goku's (137 pounds right) weight. If Goku was to train at 400x normal gravity that only mean that he was lifting 27tons (like I said, Goku pushing the moutain apart is his highest feat). Again that's nothing to WW. Jesse Quick (WW was able to catch her) wasn't holding back, so that proves that WW is capable of keeping up with speedsters.

Here's some of WWs strength feats. 

WW lifting a giant alien tank.



WW lifting a giant air plane with ease after fighting Superman.









Wonder Woman catching and stopping a meteorite.



WW, Superman, and GL (Kyle) pulling the Earth's Moon.





*you obviously think DC has the greatest fighters and heroes to ever live, so now i see why u constantly lay out crazy claims like WW lasting with Goku.  DC is the minor leagues, deal with it.*

No I don't.:S She could possibly beat Goku at max is my claim.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 11, 2005)

*You havn't given her any creadit. I've showed her being able to keep up with DCs speedsters, you havn't shown or proven anything. I never down played anything.
*

once again check the threads on what i said on bout page 2 or 3.  i said something along the lines: "i didn't know WW was that fast thanks for the images, so that means Goku can adapt to Flash too"  it was something on that order and thats when u started downplaying the speedsters holding back.

*I'm sure you or the other the guy said that, but it wasn't me.*

well wasn't me so deal with it

*No, I'm fine with keeping her against Goku at his max, she could beat possibly beat him. How much does vegeta weigh? It doesn't matter, I'll just use Goku's (137 pounds right) weight. If Goku was to train at 400x normal gravity that only mean that he was lifting 27tons. Again that's nothing to WW. Jesse Quick (WW was able to catch her) wasn't holding back, so that proves that WW is capable of keeping up with speedsters.*

well actually thats like saying he was training with a 27 ton body suit at base form during the Cell saga.  so yes, thats something to WW considering that he was fighting with all that weight on him.  i'll keep Jesse Quick bein at full speed in mind cause u'll contradict yourself quick.  and keep in mind that u are saying WW is light speed or above now because Jesse Quick has the same speed Johnny Quick had, and Johnny Quick tapped into the speed force.

*No I don't. She could possibly beat Goku at max is my claim.*

you must do cause saying WW could possibly beat Goku is just plain wrong. 

stop puttin WW in the major leagues, WW to Goku, is like a high school basketball player to MJ in his prime.


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2005)

*once again check the threads on what i said on bout page 2 or 3.  i said something along the lines: "i didn't know WW was that fast thanks for the images, so that means Goku can adapt to Flash too"  it was something on that order and thats when u started downplaying the speedsters holding back.*

Again I'm waiting for proof that Goku is faster than WW, until then, she's fast enough to fight with him.

*well wasn't me so deal with it*

Well lets move on!: 

*well actually thats like saying he was training with a 27 ton body suit at base form during the Cell saga.  so yes, thats something to WW considering that he was fighting with all that weight on him.  i'll keep Jesse Quick bein at full speed in mind cause u'll contradict yourself quick.  and keep in mind that u are saying WW is light speed or above now because Jesse Quick has the same speed Johnny Quick had, and Johnny Quick tapped into the speed force.*

WW is a high class 100, 27 tons isn't even enough to move her. Like i said, Goku pushing a moutain apart is highest feat of strength. I never said WW was light speed, but she was able to catch Jesse Quick. Now bring proof that Goku is faster than WW?

*you must do cause saying WW could possibly beat Goku is just plain wrong. *

How is it wrong to think WW could beat Goku? Unless he's god (which he isn't), WW could possibly beat him.

*stop puttin WW in the major leagues, WW to Goku, is like a high school basketball player to MJ in his prime.*

Stop overhyping Goku and being so bitter. Bring proof that Goku is greater than WW while you at it.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 11, 2005)

*Again I'm waiting for proof that Goku is faster than WW, until then, she's fast enough to fight with him.*

IT is faster than light, being able to train with 27 tons at your normal speed (even though by the end of buu he is probably 20 times better) makes u pretty damn fast.  show me WW doing that.
*
WW is a high class 100, 27 tons isn't even enough to even move her. Like i said, Goku pushing a moutain apart is highest feat of strength. I never said WW was light speed, but she was able to catch Jesse Quick. Now bring proof that Goku is faster than WW?*

pushing a mountain didn't happen in the manga, and thats what normally counts in the battledome.  and he could do 27 in base mode and considering he was better than vegeta at that point lets up it to an even 30, and by the end of buu lets say he was 20 times better than he was in cell, so that would be training with 600 tons.

*How is it wrong to think WW could beat Goku? Unless he's god (which he isn't), WW could possibly beat him.*

doesn't need to God to beat an amazon who doesn't belong in the same sentence with him.

*Stop overhyping Goku and being so bitter. Bring proof that Goku is greater than WW while you at it.*

considering DBZ doesn't present us with numbers proof in the manga then there is nothing significant that you would take, cause u only go by images.  don't put websites you post anymore cause they normally make u look bad.  but off gravity training, fighting beings that i believe WW could never stand a chance with, fighting at a speed WW doesn't fight at, making it appears shots are flying through him instead of having to block with crappy bands is proof enough.

damnit bullet go away  its down to two, and i need another victory, i've been on a role as of late in threads.


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2005)

*IT is faster than light,*

IT is just a teleport, it's not his speed. And WW has fought teleporters, it's nothing new to her. 

*being able to train with 27 tons at your normal speed (even though by the end of buu he is probably 20 times better) makes u pretty damn fast.  show me WW doing that.*

This still doesn't prove that he's faster or stronger than WW.  


*pushing a mountain didn't happen in the manga, and thats what normally counts in the battledome. *

If you take away him pushing the moutain apart, he won't have a high end feat. Which is even worser for him. 


*and he could do 27 in base mode and considering he was better than vegeta at that point lets up it to an even 30, and by the end of buu lets say he was 20 times better than he was in cell, so that would be training with 600 tons.*

But since he doesn't have a feat to go by, I think it's safe to say WW is stronger than Goku.

*doesn't need to God to beat an amazon who doesn't belong in the same sentence with him.*

Well to bad, because this amazon has shown to be greater than Goku IMO.

*considering DBZ doesn't present us with numbers proof in the manga then there is nothing significant that you would take, cause u only go by images.  don't put websites you post anymore cause they normally make u look bad.  but off gravity training, fighting beings that i believe WW could never stand a chance with, fighting at a speed WW doesn't fight at, making it appears shots are flying through him instead of having to block with crappy bands is proof enough.*

Considering that I've proven that WW is stronger than Goku at his max, plus she's durable enough to take punches from people in her strength class and is fast enough to fight him, she'll most likely win. 

*damnit bullet go away  its down to two, and i need another victory, i've been on a role as of late in threads.*

Still waiting for evidence that whould make max Goku greater than WW.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 11, 2005)

you haven't proven that her strength class is higher than goku, unless u show me a pic of her beating a DBZ character which u never will.  do some calculating and see how fast you would have to be to run under 400x gravity at the least.  way faster than WW thats for sure, why don't u show me her doing something under that much gravity.  u still haven't shown me evidence that shows WW is greater than Goku, and max Goku won't be needed.

Goku doesn't need a mountain pushing feats, he can train under extreme conditions, its called gravity.

i had an initial velocity i could actually calculate his speed under gravity.  whats a good initial velocity that he has according to u.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 11, 2005)

not even that, how long do u think goku could train under 400x
remember that he basically trained for days under 100 back in frieza so be realistic.

the new question for anyone is how much gravity can base goku after 10 year skip be able to sustain as if it were nothing, i think by the beginning of buu it would be 600x.  and how long can goku forget jog under normal conditions considering once they get used to the gravity, that it is considered normal conditions.


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2005)

*QUOTE=unknowndanex]you haven't proven that her strength class is higher than goku, unless u show me a pic of her beating a DBZ character which u never will.  *

Did you not see the strength feats I've shown or are you just trying to ignore her feats? How bout bringing proof that Goku is stronger than WW.

*do some calculating and see how fast you would have to be to run under 400x gravity at the least.  *

Again 27 tons is nothing to her, she's well above class 100. Again, bring proof that Goku is stronger than WW.

*way faster than WW thats for sure, why don't u show me her doing something under that much gravity.  *

Goku being faster than her is Unproven.

*u still haven't shown me evidence that shows WW is greater than Goku, and max Goku won't be needed.*

Actually I have, you havn't shown or proven that max Goku is greater than WW.


*Goku doesn't need a mountain pushing feats, he can train under extreme conditions, its called gravity.*

Yeah 27 tons again is nothing to her WW, she's beyound 27 tons. So you still have to prove that max Goku is stronger than WW.

*i had an initial velocity i could actually calculate his speed under gravity.  whats a good initial velocity that he has according to u.*

Again bring proof that Goku is faster than WW please. 27 tons is nothing to her, she's well into high class 100, not class 20.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 11, 2005)

*All this is unproven and only speculation.*

you should really stay away from DBZ threads, cause saiyans get stronger after every battle, goku even shot himself under 50x gravity so he could be strong enough to withstand 100x so just stop making random statements and u are really lacking on DBZ knowledge.  u can just use 450x considering thats the max gravity they've shown though.  now just tell me how long u think goku can jog under normal conditions considering after they do the gravity training they don't even notice it anymore and move normally.  (example even though significant difference in gravity:  Vegeta laughed at Cui when he bragged that they were fighting at 10x, Vegeta didn't even notice the change in gravity.)  just tell me how long can goku jog or fly at normal conditions and you'll get your speed.

don't give me no BS about speculation because i'm actually using DBZ numbers i'm just asking u for an estimate on how long can goku jog or fly under normal situations.  don't beat around the bush cause i'm bout to prove once and for all that he is fast as shit.  i know the calculation.


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## acritarch (Dec 11, 2005)

Holy crap that is long.

WW would probably win in close combat. Goku would probably win if he was using IT to suprise WW. Speedwise I don't think it can be proved that any is faster than the other unless you go by "stats" on WW's speed. WW has kept up with pissed off Supes going all out because he thought she killed lois during one of the run ups to infinite crisis (and Supes can go nearly light speed and was not holding back). Er, it was the one where she killed the guy because he was controling the visions supes had and then the OMACs started activating after she killed him and it was broadcasted. Goku is also very fast, although not nearly light speed ala Gotenks comparison... probably much slower though. If anything, based on what I've seen from the manga/comics I'd go with WW in speed (disregarding the charcter book stats or whatnot where the max mach3 comes from cause that doesn't seem true). 

Okay, as for Supes and Flash if they went all out (disregarding character flaws) against Goku (disregarding character flaws), they would both beat Goku. If you included character flaws, they probably would end up in some sort of compromise. Standard procedure on the battledome for me to analyze the characters going all out against each other unless stated otherwise. 

BTW, Gottenks "goes around the earth a lot" and also took a nap in 29 minutes. I don't know where anyone got 10 minutes from as piccolo says he only has A MINUTE (out of the 30 minute fusion) left when he gets back.

And this thread needs some humor. So here is DBZ in a nutshell (hilarious! please watch ):
Link removed


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2005)

braindx said:
			
		

> Holy crap that is long.
> 
> WW would probably win in close combat. Goku would probably win if he was using IT to suprise WW. Speedwise I don't think it can be proved that any is faster than the other unless you go by "stats" on WW's speed. WW has kept up with pissed off Supes going all out because he thought she killed lois during one of the run ups to infinite crisis (and Supes can go nearly light speed and was not holding back). Er, it was the one where she killed the guy because he was controling the visions supes had and then the OMACs started activating after she killed him and it was broadcasted. Goku is also very fast, although not nearly light speed ala Gotenks comparison... probably much slower though. If anything, based on what I've seen from the manga/comics I'd go with WW in speed (disregarding the charcter book stats or whatnot where the max mach3 comes from cause that doesn't seem true).
> 
> ...



Thanks for your input on things!


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2005)

*you should really stay away from DBZ threads, cause saiyans get stronger after every battle, goku even shot himself under 50x gravity so he could be strong enough to withstand 100x so just stop making random statements and u are really lacking on DBZ knowledge.  u can just use 450x considering thats the max gravity they've shown though.  now just tell me how long u think goku can jog under normal conditions considering after they do the gravity training they don't even notice it anymore and move normally.  (example even though significant difference in gravity:  Vegeta laughed at Cui when he bragged that they were fighting at 10x, Vegeta didn't even notice the change in gravity.)  just tell me how long can goku jog or fly at normal conditions and you'll get your speed.*

It's up to you to prove that Goku is stronger and faster than WW, so the ball is in your court. 

*don't give me no BS about speculation because i'm actually using DBZ numbers i'm just asking u for an estimate on how long can goku jog or fly under normal situations.  don't beat around the bush cause i'm bout to prove once and for all that he is fast as shit.  i know the calculation.*

And I'm still asking you to prove that Goku is stronger and faster than WW please?


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## acritarch (Dec 11, 2005)

Let me elaborate on my previous thread a little bit...



			
				I said... said:
			
		

> Okay, as for Supes and Flash if they went all out (disregarding character flaws) against Goku (disregarding character flaws), they would both beat Goku. If you included character flaws, they probably would end up in some sort of compromise. Standard procedure on the battledome for me to analyze the characters going all out against each other unless stated otherwise.



Wizard's list of characters and their rankings may be more accurate in terms of taking into account character flaws and weakness, but here I (and I think most other people don't take into account weaknesses and such most of the time because in some cases it is really hard to judge what would happen) which is why I said what I said. In any case, Wally's arrogance is definitely MORE than Goku's so if taken in context of character flaws, Goku would probably go all out before Flash would and thus Goku would win. But in the context of no character flaws, Wally's superior speed + punching power would be victorious over Goku.

Plus, hopefully no one will bring up the popularity voted battles and such where so and so character won because they were more popular. That's just a crock.



			
				I said... said:
			
		

> BTW, Gottenks "goes around the earth a lot" and also took a nap in 29 minutes. I don't know where anyone got 10 minutes from as piccolo says he only has A MINUTE (out of the 30 minute fusion) left when he gets back.



This is in volume 40, ch 10, page 9 (or 10) for reference.


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## Viciousness (Dec 11, 2005)

braindx said:
			
		

> Holy crap that is long.
> 
> WW would probably win in close combat. Goku would probably win if he was using IT to suprise WW. Speedwise I don't think it can be proved that any is faster than the other unless you go by "stats" on WW's speed. WW has kept up with pissed off Supes going all out because he thought she killed lois during one of the run ups to infinite crisis (and Supes can go nearly light speed and was not holding back). Er, it was the one where she killed the guy because he was controling the visions supes had and then the OMACs started activating after she killed him and it was broadcasted. Goku is also very fast, although not nearly light speed ala Gotenks comparison... probably much slower though. If anything, based on what I've seen from the manga/comics I'd go with WW in speed (disregarding the charcter book stats or whatnot where the max mach3 comes from cause that doesn't seem true).
> 
> ...




Lol funny movie. But anyway I realize Gotenks actually did it in 29, but the 10 minutes Gotenks thing was just a number decided on by the people arguing for Flash in the Flash vs Goku thread, since it was obvious Gotenks likes to mess with Piccolo and freak him out like how he didnt reveal SSJ3 until after Piccolo thought it was hopeless and destroyed the RoSaT entrance. We've been using that number since then as the thread carried over from there. No one assumed he was going full speed or even trying that hard to make it around the world, besides just the nap. Plus he wasnt even SSJ3 during the flight. But even if you make the bogus assumption that he was and was going all out its still well over Mach 3 which Bullet wanted to pretend Goku couldnt surpass.

Also do you really want to say Supes was "going all out" or anything close to it? Was he vibrating and phasing through her? zipping around at lightspeed? Or even creating sonic boom destruction everywhere he went? Last time I mentioned a WW and Superman's fight to show how weak Superman has been portrayed at times, you ignored it and chalked it up to DC's inconsistency (back in the Supes vs Goku with GL ring thread). Wouldnt this also go in the category of inconsistency if he was really going all out like you said? But I highly doubt that, even if Bullet posted his usual pics of this battle, that it would even compare to what we've seen Superman to be capable of.

Speaking of which Bullet, Im honestly surprised you hopped back in this thread, after the two major points which you were so defensive of and so sure you were right on (The anime being Cannon and Arlia not being in the japanese anime) were completely and utterly shot down. But I guess you saw an easy prey on which to take out your frustration (poor Jaga).

Why do you keep bringing up Goku breaking up the mountain. It's obvious to anyone through detuctive reasoning that by that point in the manga he'd be capable of much more physically based on what he could do earlier in the series and how much his power has increased since then. Just like its obvious through detuctive reasoning Goku is at least capable of moving several hundred times the speed of sound, if Toriyama placed him slightly beneath Gotenks, who did it not even maxed out.  
There's no reasoning involved in your posts about her keeping up with speedsters who werent even showing near what theyre capable of. That's like saying anyone who's battled the flash and given him a hard time when he's in his usual mode of not trying as youd put it, including Captain Boomerang, is capable of something near lightspeed thought and movement.
And honestly if youre using sites to say she has class 100 strength, shouldnt you be using those same sites with regards to her < mach 10 speed??

But honestly I dont expect you to listen. Youre extremely hard headed until youre proven completely wrong beyond any reasonable shadow of a doubt, and youve made wrong and dumb point after wrong and dumb point, including this one, which takes the cake: 





			
				Bullet said:
			
		

> just like you did by saying Gotenks is mach 230, which will make him faster than light.


 Right...mach 230 is above lightspeed??? 
I'm not going to waste my time with someone so wrong and hard headed on so many points that Id have to beat the truth into his head. Sure you might be able to make the case theres no way to absolutely determine this battle unlike whether Arlia was in the Japanese anime or not, but I think unknowndanex and I have shown more than likely Goku's capable of beating Wonder Woman based on reasonable evidence and arguments. You havent even shown me Wonder Woman could take a blast capable of destroying the earth, much less their more powerful ones.

I've got better things to do than play "Prove Bullet wrong on point after point as he continues to post a steady barrage of increasingly meaningless images"...


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## unknowndanex (Dec 11, 2005)

Bullet u're obviously scared to throw in a time because then your poor little WW will be ousted in speed.  Don't care too much for your images of Strength feats because the manga has fighting and training, not strength feats.  your thinking jesse quick was going all out is pure speculatin and unproven.

but considering you're gonna beat around the bush, DY would probably agree with me that goku could jog for at least 

and training under 450 gravity would mean you would need a velocity of 116,640,000 m/s where as light speed is 229 million and some change, this is during the cell saga in base form, thats for vegeta before the hyperbolic time chamber.  this isn't speculation, this is the truth, and bulma herself that he was in the gravity chamber for days.

there's a long ago speed feat even though saiyans get stronger and faster due to training and battling, thats not speculation either, its truth.

and with the gotenks thing, we were basically just entertaining that crap because someone who obviously knows nothing about DBZ wanted to say he went around the world in 10 min and no one else knew this info existed.  but they never say how many times gotenks went around the world, so taking gotenks speed into account to compare to goku is pure speculation as well.

DY he is not hard headed til he's proven completely wrong cause he tries to ignore it in fear that he's bein ousted.   i actually told him to stick with 450x gravity and pick a time for how long he could jog and he called that speculation.


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2005)

*Speaking of which Bullet, Im honestly surprised you hopped back in this thread, after the two major points which you were so defensive of and so sure you were right on (The anime being Cannon and Arlia not being in the japanese anime) were completely and utterly shot down. But I guess you saw an easy prey on which to take out your frustration (poor Jaga).

Why do you keep bringing up Goku breaking up the mountain. It's obvious to anyone through detuctive reasoning that by that point in the manga he'd be capable of much more physically based on what he could do earlier in the series and how much his power has increased since then. Just like its obvious through detuctive reasoning Goku is at least capable of moving several hundred times the speed of sound, if Toriyama placed him slightly beneath Gotenks, who did it not even maxed out.  
There's no reasoning involved in your posts about her keeping up with speedsters who werent even showing near what theyre capable of. That's like saying anyone who's battled the flash and given him a hard time when he's in his usual mode of not trying as youd put it, including Captain Boomerang, is capable of something near lightspeed thought and movement.
And honestly if youre using sites to say she has class 100 strength, shouldnt you be using those same sites with regards to her < mach 10 speed??

But honestly I dont expect you to listen. Youre extremely hard headed until youre proven completely wrong beyond any reasonable shadow of a doubt, and youve made wrong and dumb point after wrong and dumb point, including this one, which takes the cake:  Right...mach 230 is above lightspeed??? 
I'm not going to waste my time with someone so wrong and hard headed on so many points that Id have to beat the truth into his head. Sure you might be able to make the case theres no way to absolutely determine this battle unlike whether Arlia was in the Japanese anime or not, but I think unknowndanex and I have shown more than likely Goku's capable of beating Wonder Woman based on reasonable evidence and arguments. You havent even shown me Wonder Woman could take a blast capable of destroying the earth, much less their more powerful ones.

I've got better things to do than play "Prove Bullet wrong on point after point as he continues to post a steady barrage of increasingly meaningless images"...*

Yep, still no proof. All I'm getting is WW can't do this and that, but Goku can do this and that without bringing any evidence at all.  Sorry, but i'll stick with WW for this fight.


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## Gunners (Dec 11, 2005)

Bullet something you must realise about dbz, all the calcualtion were done rong, tori intended the characters to move at light speed he got the calculations mixed up.

With dc characters they use some laws of physics to state people speed, dbz goes by it own laws.

That being said i beleive gokou would win, just send a kamehameha wave that could destroy a planet at her.


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## korican04 (Dec 11, 2005)

Why do we even create threads like this. They are two complete different worlds, dc and marvel then dragon ball. Dc and marvel try to base their worlds on earth then change what characters can do with randomn science mumbo jumbo. 

DB is completely different. This is a world where if you blow up the moon it doesn't have any environmental catastrophies. You can powerpole to the moon and you have a rabbit breathe there (this is old school db). And after radditz came everyone started fighting the exact same way. Throw a couple hundred punches and kicks hope some land. Then it doesn' matter who you are but you can learn how to fly (videl). Or learn how to fuse, or even learn how to teleport and throw blasts. They have flying cars then go out a couple miles you have still have farmers with pitch forks. If thor or superman where in the dbz world they would be made to fight the exact same way, throw a couple hundred punches and power up. There are two worlds a spirit world where apparently you can still train and get stronger like goku had done twice and a "human" world. So you aren't really dead until you get evaporated in the spirit world. It's hopeless trying argue both sides. This is like asking if wonder woman can beat up bugs bunny.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 11, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## unknowndanex (Dec 11, 2005)

*How have I been making random statments? You said Goku was greater than WW, so asked you to bring proof of this. *

Toriyama did the DBZ anime, the Japanese anime has no filler only the US does even though they're the same, mountain pushing, saiyans getting stronger speculation, etc. etc. etc. all were just random wrong statements.
*
I said Goku being stronger than WW is only speculation since he doesn't have a feat that's greater than hers. *

and to repeat myself:  u're never gonna prove either or because u base your arguements on images which you're not gonna get from DBZ to show a feat.  so thats basically a broken argument and u have only proved that WW is strong, not stronger than goku.


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2005)

[*QUOTE=unknowndanex]





			
				Bullet said:
			
		




that calculation shows they can move at light speeds, and u can't really say WW can operate under that gravity considering her body hasn't experienced it and you have no proof.  27 tons is pretty much speculation as well considering you don't know how to calculate weight according to gravity.

It doesn't prove they could go at light, did they mention they could go at light or are you just giving them extra abilities? IT is the fast thing in DBZ, that's the only thing that goes light speed, if Goku was light speed he wouldn't need IT. And you still havn't proven that Goku is Stronger than WW. 

i know i lost you in that other statement about saiyans getting stronger because your DBZ knowledge is lacking a lot, and u seem to go against everything toriyama intended for DBZ like moving at light speeds.  you haven't shown evidence she is stronger than goku, cause DBZ doesn't show feats like DC, so all u've really shown is that WW is strong.  something nobody even doubted.  but u haven't proven she is stronger than goku.

I was lost, because it isn't helping you. They get stronger after being beaten, it doesn't happen during battle (good example whould be Goku vs. Cell). I've lots of evidence showing her to be stronger than Goku, you're the one that havn't shown anything or proven anything.:  I've also shown her to be fast or are you going to dismiss her speed feats in order for Goku to have a better chance in this match?

Click to expand...

*


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2005)

*[and to repeat myself:  u're never gonna prove either or because u base your arguements on images which you're not gonna get from DBZ to show a feat.  *

Actually I have, one character feats of strength is greater than the other (who is WW). 

*so thats basically a broken argument and u have only proved that WW is strong, not stronger than goku.*

I've proven that WW is stronger than Goku, so it's not a broken argument IMO.:


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## konflikti (Dec 11, 2005)

gunners said:
			
		

> Bullet something you must realise about dbz, all the calcualtion were done rong, tori intended the characters to move at light speed he got the calculations mixed up.
> 
> With dc characters they use some laws of physics to state people speed, dbz goes by it own laws.
> 
> That being said i beleive gokou would win, just send a kamehameha wave that could destroy a planet at her.


What the hell? Can I see that interview? I doubt Toriyama ever did any calculations at all. Even if DBZ goes by its own laws, that doesn't give you the right to decide what their general speeds are.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and training under 450 gravity would mean you would need a velocity of 116,640,000 m/s where as light speed is 229 million and some change, this is during the cell saga in base form, thats for vegeta before the hyperbolic time chamber. this isn't speculation, this is the truth, and bulma herself that he was in the gravity chamber for days.


Can you tell me where did you get these numbers and what are you trying to prove with them? Gravity I do get but what's with the velocity? How the hell you calculate velocities from fucking gravity? Unless you're calculating escape velocities or something totally irrelevant.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and to repeat myself: u're never gonna prove either or because u base your arguements on images which you're not gonna get from DBZ to show a feat. so thats basically a broken argument and u have only proved that WW is strong, not stronger than goku.


How is Bullet's argument broken whe he has images to back himself up while you have not?


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## narutorulez (Dec 11, 2005)

Goku,no one can beat him when they have made him super pissed


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## Gunners (Dec 11, 2005)

> What the hell? Can I see that interview? I doubt Toriyama ever did any calculations at all. Even if DBZ goes by its own laws, that doesn't give you the right to decide what their general speeds are.



Im not going to dig up an interview, but he said when someone asked ''did you ever consider the power increase''

tori words were simular to this ''yeh at one point the characters could blow up mountains and move ultra fast, towards the end they could blow up galexies and move at the speed of light''

with dbz it wasnt about calculations like it is with dc characters.


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2005)

narutorulez said:
			
		

> Goku,no one can beat him when they have made him super pissed



Nice arguement.


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## Grep (Dec 11, 2005)

Lets see when Vegeta was first introduced he destroyed a planet with ease, and that was right after Raditz by the end of the series Goku should have been able to destroy the world, eat it, shit it out and then destroy it again, but when they fight they just make little craters. Sorry I just had to vent my DBZ is over the top frustration, I love the show and Goku but it is insane. Anyways Superman wouldn't even be able to see Goku even in his normal form in SS, SS2, SS3, SS4 (in GT) there is NO WAY that Superman would survive.


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## Grep (Dec 11, 2005)

As for this Debate on DBZ character being faster than light speed, it is true. Raditz told Goku and Piccolo that he could move faster than the speed of light, this is another thing I hate because by the end of the show Goku's speed would be at least 100X light speed.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Dec 11, 2005)

Goku would easily takeout wonderwoman. Has everyone forgoten that even if the enemy is faster then Goku, which wonderwoman isn't anyway that Goku can still react and know where she is. 

Remember his training in db, from kami and then at the tournament how he knew without looking exactly where tenshian was. Remember Gohan against Dabra during that fight how Goku and vegeta where saying how he'd forgoten how to fight propery. 

Dbz chars on top of wicked speed, have spiderman like senses and masterfully fighting ability (at least Goku) he has the best fighting technique in the universe literally. 

Wonderman get killed easily, she not as durable as sups, slower and most importantly has less powers. Goku fires a kamehameha at her, killing her or just beats her to death.


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## Bullet (Dec 11, 2005)

*QUOTE=shika shika boo]Goku would easily takeout wonderwoman. *

Prove it?

*Has everyone forgoten that even if the enemy is faster then Goku, which wonderwoman isn't anyway that Goku can still react and know where she is. *

Can you please prove that Goku is faster than WW. WW is capable of fighting blind, she's very skilled.

*Remember his training in db, from kami and then at the tournament how he knew without looking exactly where tenshian was. Remember Gohan against Dabra during that fight how Goku and vegeta where saying how he'd forgoten how to fight propery. *

What does this have to do with this fight though?:S 

*Dbz chars on top of wicked speed, have spiderman like senses and masterfully fighting ability (at least Goku) he has the best fighting technique in the universe literally. *

WW also have speed, she's a skilled fighter and Goku only has the best fighting technique in his universe. 

*Wonderman get killed easily,*

Unproven

* she not as durable as sups, *

She's durable enough to fight against Goku.

*slower and most importantly has less powers. *

Prove that Goku is stronger and faster than WW please?

*Goku fires a kamehameha at her, killing her or just beats her to death.*

WW isn't going to wait around for him to fire off a Kamehameha wave and her bands has deflected forces like a Kamehameha wave before, it's nothing new to her. WW is going to bring the fight h2h (and it will happen), where she gains a huge advantage.:


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## pnoypridz (Dec 11, 2005)

i really think this is an easy match

guko just instant transmit to the other side of the planet and destroys it and transmit out in time

dead WW


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## Grep (Dec 11, 2005)

Bullet you are rediculous you talk about proof, yet you have none either. IMO (as well as pretty much every one elses but yours) Goku could take any super hero, including WW. Why is it that every time someone sites some specific detail that explain why Goku would win you say, "That has nothing to do with this fight". Also you said that it was only in the US release that Vegeta blew up a planet, and Raditz was faster than light. I am American and like most American have only seen the US ver so change the title of your post to WW vs Japanese Goku because in the US ver he is unbeatable.

The facts are that Goku could at least pull a vegeta (or a chiotzu) and destroy both of them if he had to. I could actually see Super Man vs Goku being a decent fight, but WW isn't as strong or as fast as superman (at least not in any comic or show that I have seen).


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## Kamendex (Dec 11, 2005)

BGtymin said:
			
		

> As for this Debate on DBZ character being faster than light speed, it is true. Raditz told Goku and Piccolo that he could move faster than the speed of light, this is another thing I hate because by the end of the show Goku's speed would be at least 100X light speed.




.....that was a dub line just to let you know...Radditz cannot move at the speed of light.

Gohan in the beginning of the Buu Saga was in a hurry to get to school and he was going as fast as he could in base....and if you do the calculations correctly it comes out to Mach 3 speed...which is nowhere NEAR the Speed of light.

SSj Gotenks took a whole minute to fly to where Buu was to fight him...the Speed of light is 7 times around the world in 1 second....how the hell is that even close to the speed of light?

Think about this logically for a second...if Dragonball characters can move at the speed of light, IT would be useless, Gokuu would've never ran away from Gohan Buu, ki blasts would be USELESS since they can dodge them easily, etc.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Dec 11, 2005)

*...BUllet- You said that wonderwoman won't wait around to get hit by a Kamehameha... well what about other energy attacks. *She constantly just stands still and deflects bullets instead of just using her speed to dodge them. She do the same retarded thing her, try to deflect one of goku energy blast then get hit and stunned temperaily and get kamehameha. 

*Also- concerning the speed of the kamehameha*.  Goku doesn't need time to charage it, at all- During the nappa fight look how fast he did it... Nappa beam was already coming at him. Goku Kamehema is way faster then that now. Wonderwoman won't be able to dodge it once he fires it. She'll just see a huge flash of light. 

Omg WW may not even know it's an attack. 

...You want me to prove Goku is stronger PHYSICALLY- It is horribly easy. 

Remember vegeta training in his 200 times gravity. Meaning his body is 200 time heavier. So if he vegeta normally weighted 150 pounds, he'd now weight 30, 000 pounds. When Goku was dead, he was training with weights on his entire body that weight, err king kai said like 100 tons total... plus in ten time gravity. Therefore 1000 tons. The instant he went supersaiyan he could move easily, like it was nothing. 

Meaning Goku in supersaiyan one can easily EASILY lifted 1000 tons. 

----------

Goku having  spiderman like sense and the greatest fighting abiltiy, means he can predict how ww is goign to attack him. Unlike cell she doesn't have wicked martial arts skills, her punk ass attacks are easy to read, even if they are fast. Goku dodges everything she's got and can teleport behind her or away and spam kamehameha's. 

Wonderwoman has no way to win whatsoever she gets owned.


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## Kamendex (Dec 11, 2005)

shika shika boo said:
			
		

> *...BUllet- You said that wonderwoman won't wait around to get hit by a Kamehameha... well what about other energy attacks. *She constantly just stands still and deflects bullets instead of just using her speed to dodge them. She do the same retarded thing her, try to deflect one of goku energy blast then get hit and stunned temperaily and get kamehameha.
> 
> *Also- concerning the speed of the kamehameha*.  Goku doesn't need time to charage it, at all- During the nappa fight look how fast he did it... Nappa beam was already coming at him. Goku Kamehema is way faster then that now. Wonderwoman won't be able to dodge it once he fires it. She'll just see a huge flash of light.
> 
> ...




First of all, Gokuu in the other world had 40 tons on him, 10 tons on each limb. And there was no gravity in otherworld, it wasnt even stated that there was. There is gravity on Kaiosama's planet...and Kaiosama's planet is a special case since only two people have ever been able to go there.


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## acritarch (Dec 11, 2005)

> Remember vegeta training in his 200 times gravity. Meaning his body is 200 time heavier. So if he vegeta normally weighted 150 pounds, he'd now weight 30, 000 pounds. When Goku was dead, he was training with weights on his entire body that weight, err king kai said like 100 tons total... plus in ten time gravity. Therefore 1000 tons. The instant he went supersaiyan he could move easily, like it was nothing.
> 
> Meaning Goku in supersaiyan one can easily EASILY lifted 1000 tons.



Wrong. Weight is weight. 100 tons in 1x gravity is still 100 tons in 100000x gravity. It they said it was a 1000 kg/g/lbs *MASS*, then it would be different. So the 40 tons on Goku is still 40 tons. 

Edit: Haha Kamen, your argument is weaker than mine!


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## Valdens (Dec 11, 2005)

*Superman vs. Smoker 2!!!*

*looks at screen* OMGWTF! WHAT HAVE I DONE!
*decides to set thos thread straight*

ok now, this is starting to remind me a lot of a thread called superman vs smoker, and i wont have it, because that thread is copyrighted patent.

bullet, you have been doing a nice job defending wonder woman, and obviously many people have agreed with you, as do i, but you hvae to realize that these DBZ fanboys and n00bs like unknowndanex refuse to let DBZ lose mainly because if goku lost any battle then they would die inside. i think its quite obvious WW wins with all the good pics youve postes and somewhat canon argument.

a word for all you stupid people out there, *SUPERMAN EASILY PWNS GOKU! *

ITS TRUE, AND THE DISCUSSION OF THAT THREAD PROVED IT. the only time such mass fanboyism is allowed is in threads that have smoker or bonta-kun, and we all know the goku winning arguments are 1 of the two following things:
1. Mass DBZ Fanboyism or
2. Ignorance of DC and its Greatness

now flame me, neg rep me, ignore me, and block me as you like, but we all know that DBZ doesnt have an auto win because toriyama forgot to write down a speed marker for the seires and winged it. hell, im sure that you fanboys could come up with a way for goku to beat smoker prime or dark schneider using that "reality and physics doesnt apply" argument

                                            -valdens


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## unknowndanex (Dec 11, 2005)

tons is easily converted to mass, so what are u talking about.  1 ton is 2100lbs.  and if u calculate it speed wise, then u wouldn't hit light speed but you be pretty damn close in base form at that.  gotenks was not flying full speed or in a powered up form, gohan didn't have to fly light speed to get to school so he didn't.  yall act like just cause they can go light speed means everything must be done at light speed.  

everytime the flash is brought up doing something that contradicts his speed, its he held back (not sayin flash is slow), yet if a DBZ character doesn't do something light speed its cause they can't.  toriyama wants to make an interesting fight and shows dialogue of different people at the exact same time, so when buu is comin at goku and vegeta, when buu talks, its at the exact moment Goku and Vegeta are talking.  toriyama likes to show what is going on at that exact time.

how does a discussion thread prove Superman is better than Goku, can i see the thread where everyone says, ok its setteled, superman is better than Goku.  

now i'm not gonna sit here and say goku can beat smoker or DS, thats called stupidity, but its not stupid to think goku can beat superman.

*bullet, you have been doing a nice job defending wonder woman, and obviously many people have agreed with you, as do i, but you hvae to realize that these DBZ fanboys and n00bs like unknowndanex refuse to let DBZ lose mainly because if goku lost any battle then they would die inside. i think its quite obvious WW wins with all the good pics youve postes and somewhat canon argument.*

is this a DC fanboy revolution or something.  i've stated and u have now confirmed that u can't really compare images cause Toriyama doesn't sit on his making up numbers all damn day, or coming up with a feat for goku can do just to say he is so great.  while DC heroes are lifting something, that has nothing to do with a fight, Goku is battling beings on a whole nother level.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Dec 11, 2005)

@Valdens Superman would Pwn Goku, Because Superman is >>>>>>>>>>>> Wonderwoman. Wonderwoman is not as strong, not nearly as fast and not even close to being as durable. Yeah yeah she can take a punch from supes.. so what. Supes can take five hour beatings from people with more strength. 

Wonderwoman also doesn't have any other powers. Goku wins, ww will never get a hit on goku and goku can fire away kamehamea's. 

OMG people since vegeta first appeared dbz chars have been able to blow up planets... imagine what ss3 goku could do with a kamehameha. 

Proof that wonderwoman dies from a kamehameha.. Look at what Vegeta did with his big bang attack... it came down from outer space or something and he specifically targeted cell... (perfect cell) ... Goku ssj3 Kamehamea >>>> vegeta Big Bang attack. 

Wonderwoman is dead. As you can be dead. 

--------
And jeeze I'm dissapointed that from the post above, Goku was only carrying around that low as amount of weight.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 11, 2005)

well if u go back to the GL Goku thread, when it was brought up that WW took shots from superman, just about everybody on this thread defending WW said Superman was holding back.  another example of DC fans changing up depending on argument.


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## acritarch (Dec 11, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> tons is easily converted to mass, so what are u talking about. 1 ton is 2100lbs. and if u calculate it speed wise, then u wouldn't hit light speed but you be pretty damn close in base form at that. gotenks was not flying full speed or in a powered up form, gohan didn't have to fly light speed to get to school so he didn't. yall act like just cause they can go light speed means everything must be done at light speed.



No, you have to know what gravity or force on an object is to convert it to mass. 100 tons in 1x gravity is the same as 100 tons in 100x gravity. They have different masses though.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 11, 2005)

weight is directly proportional to mass and gravitational field does affect them.  mass is not affected by position whereas weight is, so yes the weight is changed.  if someone put a 100 pound weight under 100x gravity you not lift it up.  but i see what u're talkin bout because of the proportionality but the constant in that relation is gravity, so as a matter of fact u can convert weight using gravity.


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## acritarch (Dec 11, 2005)

> weight is directly proportional to mass and gravitational field does affect them. mass is not affected by position whereas weight is, so yes the weight is changed. if someone put a 100 pound weight under 100x gravity you not lift it up. but i see what u're talkin bout because of the proportionality but the constant in that relation is gravity, so as a matter of fact u can convert weight using gravity.



Yes, I know that. All I was trying to say that Goku's lifting 40 tons SSJ on Kai's world is just 40 tons. Not 10x the gravity to 400 tons.


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## ~Kaio-Cam~ (Dec 11, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> And how do you know that Goku is even faster than mach 1 or 2? You have any evidence that whould put Goku or any other DBZ character faster than WW? IT is a teleport (and he'll be loseing energy each time he uses it), that's all it is, if it was his speed, he whouldn't have any trouble with the enemies he fight in DBZ because none of them are even close to being light speed. And WW is one the best fighters in DC, she's been trained from a child to be a fighter and has a 1000 years of battle trainning along with Superman, so she's more than capable of fighting against Goku.



omg i can tell ur a hardcore DC fan, cause this debate wouldnt be lastin this long. Wonderwoman yeah has been trained and shit but all of her true power didnt come to her from hard work and training. She's grew up in that race of Amazonians, and she was given that power by her people. Ok, she may have 1000 years of battle and training exp. but that doesnt mean she's more capable of fighting Goku and actually winning. When Goku died and went to the after life he fought fighters with 1000s of years of trainign experience and beat them all, even the strongest. Goku is no older than 40 years old and he beat fighters who are 1000 years of age. Goku is faster than both wonderwoman and superman. If Nappa, which is now one of the weakest characters in the whole dbz world, is able to fly faster than a plane, rip it apart like it was wet paper, and blow UP, i said BLOW UP carriers and ships with his fuckin lasers eyes(SUPERMAN, i've never seen him blow shit up with his laser eyes), then Goku can do the same thing.. not better. Now if i cant eevn see Wonderwoman or SUperman do what Nappa can do, what the fuck would u compare Goku to Wonderwoman. BTW Jets are able to fly at Mach 1 and Mach 2. Another example would be when Cell destroys a whole army of tanks,  jets, soldiers, the whole shitnikz with a single blast. Goku is stronger than Cell. have you seen Superman or Wonderwoman do anything this amazing. Fuck no. I'm Done


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## korican04 (Dec 11, 2005)

Here we go, someone coming into the argument obviously watching a lot of dbz anime and probably reading none of it's manga then claiming superman can't do anything, most likely because he doesn't read comics. yeah this strengthens the dbz argument a whole lot.


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## konflikti (Dec 12, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> 1.  whats with this goku mach 1-2 crap, he is obviously way faster than that.  if u use acceleration due to gravity and use Vegeta training under 400x or 450x gravity, then thats 50% speed of light right there if u calculate it.  and that was during the android saga in base form.  these guys are walking around not even knowing if there's a change in gravity or not now.


I demand you to post these calculations before I'm going to accept any of your claims.


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## EvilMoogle (Dec 12, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> 1.  whats with this goku mach 1-2 crap, he is obviously way faster than that.  if u use acceleration due to gravity and use Vegeta training under 400x or 450x gravity, then thats 50% speed of light right there if u calculate it.  and that was during the android saga in base form.  these guys are walking around not even knowing if there's a change in gravity or not now.



In that case, you'd notice the pattern in football that the big, strong guys who can lift the most tend to be the fastest.  But that's not the case (in fact as a trend the opposite is true).  The fastest tend to be the smaller wirey guys.

Training under high gravity would make Goku stronger, there's no real argument there.  But it might actually make him slower because it trains his muscles for power rather than speed.  I'll grant that he's faster after the training, but just because he becomes 400x stronger doesn't mean that he's 400x faster.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 12, 2005)

konflikti said:
			
		

> I demand you to post these calculations before I'm going to accept any of your claims.



ok here goes:
acceleration due to gravity is 9.8m/s2 and some change rounded to 10 to make it simpler.

equation for final velocity is: Vf = Vi + A*t(will be estimated but to a small extent)

now i know u can agree that DBZ consistent with the fact that once saiyans get used to something they do it later on like its a normal thing.  same thing with goku 10x and 100x gravity.  this is a calculation on how much velocity u would have to be able to output just by walking in 450x gravity.  so as an estimate on time, i'll say vegeta can walk for a good three days under 450x.  

A = 450(9.8) =  4410 m/s2 thats the acceleration
t = 3 days = 72hours = 25920s
Vi = 0
A*t = 4410m/s2 * 25920s = 114,307,200 m/s
c = 299,792,458 m/s
bad estimate last time it would be roughly 40% speed of light.

u would need to be able to atain that just to walk under that much gravity.  vegeta did this in base form, and was actually training and fighting under those conditions, and bulma said he was in there for days.  of course he was fuckin himself up the first time he tried, but it went about the same way Goku did when he was doing 100x.  but this is just during the Cell saga in base form, imagine what they would be capable of after the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, the time skip to Buu when Goku was in the Afterworld, then the time skip after Buu (u know Goku does nothing but train) at SSJ3.
if u think i should use a different time then thats cool, cause you're entitled to your opinion.

*In that case, you'd notice the pattern in football that the big, strong guys who can lift the most tend to be the fastest. But that's not the case (in fact as a trend the opposite is true). The fastest tend to be the smaller wirey guys.

Training under high gravity would make Goku stronger, there's no real argument there. But it might actually make him slower because it trains his muscles for power rather than speed. I'll grant that he's faster after the training, but just because he becomes 400x stronger doesn't mean that he's 400x faster.*

what????? did u not see the Frieza saga when Goku was faster than ever due to his gravity training.  the point of the training was to make Goku all around better, not just physically stronger.


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## Viciousness (Dec 14, 2005)

Valdens said:
			
		

> *lo
> bullet, you have been doing a nice job defending wonder woman, and obviously many people have agreed with you, as do i, but you hvae to realize that these DBZ fanboys and n00bs like unknowndanex refuse to let DBZ lose mainly because if goku lost any battle then they would die inside. i think its quite obvious WW wins with all the good pics youve postes and somewhat canon argument.
> 
> a word for all you stupid people out there, *SUPERMAN EASILY PWNS GOKU! *
> ...



I think your post is a prime example of what I was talking about in my previous quote as for why dbz vs matches turn into mud slinging matches: 





			
				DrunkenYoshimaster said:
			
		

> Because like I said DB gets no respect since it becamea US fad. As a result if Goku is brought up people generally throw out insults at those who try to defend him and they respond with more insults (even though I wasnt one who did). And once again it was someone arguing against goku who started labelling people fanboys:



Dude read the freaking thread. unknowndaneX and I proved Bullet completely wrong on several points he was extremely defensive of. I dropped out because he doesnt seem to know what logic is enough to accept the claim that because Gotenks travels at least mach 100 without going all out and Toriyama says Goku is slightly below Gotenks, then Goku must be faster than mach 100.
He'd just rather delude himself into beleiving Goku is mach 3 for some reason, unless I find an exact quote saying his speed (which doesnt exist). He'd rather take pictures which that create faulty arguments like "WW can keep up with the flash and her friend who arent trying at all, so she must be mach 100+" even though people slow as hell have been able to keep up with Flash before when he wasnt trying near his hardest. 

His reasoning is almost as bad as your " If WW<<< Superman and Superman >>> Goku so WW>>> Goku too. Why do you think DC fansites dont put WW anywhere near Superman in speed or durability? and occasionally in strength but only theoretically. If you tried to say her speed is comparable to supes and flash on a DC board you'd probably be labelled a WW fanboy.

You just come barging in and see "Oh tons of pages of Bullet arguing against DB! must be fanboys!! I hate fanboys, shut em up and lynch em!"
and you're pointing out unkowndanex when he's probably read way more US comics than you, and if anything just seems to dislike people who try and overrate DC characters when they get into battles outside of their Universe like Marvel and DB. Yet in a DC battle you never see half of these half baked theories come out of the woodworks.

And like I said Im out because as Ive learned the hardway, no amount of intelligent reasoning can get through to Bullet, he just says convinced he is right until you prove to him just how far from it he is like with the Arlia and Anime Canon examples. Then he pounces on people who enter the thread saying slightly incorrect statements, when he's said things as ignorant as "mach 230 is faster than the speed of light!" in this thread...
I only came back because I saw a hater who didnt know what he was talking about at all.


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## ~ Masamune ~ (Dec 14, 2005)

Goku wins,end of story


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## Keyser S?ze (Dec 14, 2005)

goku will obviously blast this bitch. lol. j/k. but he would own her like nothing. that crazy super saiyan, he wouldn't hit a woman though.


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## EvilMoogle (Dec 14, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> ok here goes:
> acceleration due to gravity is 9.8m/s2 and some change rounded to 10 to make it simpler.
> 
> equation for final velocity is: Vf = Vi + A*t(will be estimated but to a small extent)
> ...


A) The acceleration that applies to that formula only makes sense if you're going directly against the acceleration.  IE if Goku were flying up or climbing up.  It does not apply in any way shape or form to someone walking/running at a 90-degree angle to the force.  The time in that equation only applies to the time that is accelerating, not simply the "time spent training."  If anything, you'd need to use a force equation of some sort.

B) Even if you were able to calculate the force that Goku can produce, this in no way means that he would be able to produce that force to accelerate constantly.  I can run at Xmph.  If I am carrying 10% of my body weight, I can still run faster than X/110mph.  This is because when running I do not use 100% of the power my body can produce.  I see no reason that this would be different for Goku.




			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> *In that case, you'd notice the pattern in football that the big, strong guys who can lift the most tend to be the fastest. But that's not the case (in fact as a trend the opposite is true). The fastest tend to be the smaller wirey guys.
> 
> Training under high gravity would make Goku stronger, there's no real argument there. But it might actually make him slower because it trains his muscles for power rather than speed. I'll grant that he's faster after the training, but just because he becomes 400x stronger doesn't mean that he's 400x faster.*
> 
> what????? did u not see the Frieza saga when Goku was faster than ever due to his gravity training.  the point of the training was to make Goku all around better, not just physically stronger.



Oh, I agree Goku was faster after the training, however I do not think your logic holds true that because he is 450-times-stronger he should be 450-times-faster.  It just doesn't work that way.

Watch any sport that has a mixture of "big guys" and "little guys" (I use American football, but anything you can find that in should work).  The little guys tend to be faster because they optimize their muscles for speed rather than for strength.

WR and HB players that play to speed tend to be smaller of build so they can run faster.  FB players that play to strength tend to have bigger builds so they can power through.  As a general rule, a FB will bench more than a WR, but a WR will beat the FB in a sprint.

Weight training is a great way to increase the power/strength/stamina of your muscles, but a fairly poor way to increase the speed of them.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 14, 2005)

it would be different for goku, because if you are in a place with a magnified gravity meaning that your whole body is being affected.  if you are carrying 10 percent of your body weight it could be on your shoulders or back, and not much of that percentage would be pushed to your legs.

the way gravity training would affect u is like putting that 10 percent of your body weight all over your body, which would equal out what you're doing after your body adjust, so u could in fact become 450 times faster.

one thing about that calculation is that they actually use it for jets in the airforce for how much they can put on the jet or plane.  i think that calculation works a lot better for goku flying, but my whole point was that he was actually fighting in that gravity.  and afterwhile he was fighting at the speed that he was making people gasp in the first place.

another thing, i've already talked of batman being able to see WW fight Flash, so i know for a fact that pic of Flash fighting WW was Flash not being even at 20 percent of his speed.  no one can see the dbz characters fighting during the Saiyan Saga, unless they knew how to use ki well.  in the Frieza saga even the one's that knew how to use ki didn't realize Goku was at kaioken 20 cause Frieza made it look like he was moving slow as shit, the same Goku that hit Recoome and Gohan, Krillin, Jeice, and Burter couldn't even see the attack.

you get the Cell saga when Goku fought Cell and Cell showed his true speed and not even Goku could see him anymore until Cell started playing again.

My point is, WW wouldn't be able to deal with that much speed if she was struggling with Flash's downplayed speed that Batman (a human) could see clearly.

WW is really out of her league in speed.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 15, 2005)

*


			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		


			My point is, WW wouldn't be able to deal with that much speed if she was struggling with Flash's downplayed speed that Batman (a human) could see clearly.
		
Click to expand...

*
How? WW was able to keep up with Jesse quick, travel around the world (nobody was able to see her), fight with Flash (even though it was only trainning and Batman was watching them from the monitor), and fight with Superman at high speeds. 

*WW is really out of her league in speed.*

WW is fast enough to fight Goku, you havn't proven that she's not or that Goku is faster than her.



			
				Acapella said:
			
		

> OMG u idiot, this isnt even worth getting pissed off for the hell of it. You are a complete moron and a liar omg, i'm sorry this will be the only time i will actually flame at my min. DUDE, Superman isnt faster than the speed of light. That's total bullshit. Comics and the TV show says "Faster than a speeding BULLET" AHEM
> 
> "Faster than a speeding BULLET"
> "Faster than a speeding BULLET"
> ...



Whe was the last time you read a Superman comic?




			
				Masamunenissay said:
			
		

> Goku wins,end of story




Whould that be because of fanboyism?


----------



## unknowndanex (Dec 15, 2005)

well like i said, if Batman saw her fighting Flash clearly, he wasn't fighting as fast as Goku fights characters, cause Batman sure as hell wouldn't see them.  WW running with Jesse Quick, was exactly what u called it, a run.  That really has no relation to the fight, is she gonna run away from Goku or something, i would hope not but considering a lot of DC threads have DC characters winning with petty tactics i wouldn't be surprised if i see a couple.  (not referring to u bullet personally, just in general)

you haven't proved that WW is faster than Goku or able to keep up with him cause u have no basis to say that Jesse Quick is faster than them considering DBZ don't throw numbers out there.  but with the comparison of sagas i just threw in my last post which were all facts, and the FACT that batman could clearly see the battle between WW and Flash shows that they weren't fighting at that much of a high speed.  i'm not downplaying Flash speed i think he held back a goot 75-85 percent of his speed.

and i haven't seen anything to go against my fight calculation, i think evilmoogle was referring to foot speed in his post.  if vegeta had to output enough force and acceleration to reach 40 percent the speed of light just to train in base form at the beginning of cell, imagine what goku could do at the end of buu, i won't throw out numbers but keep these in mind.

recovers from the heart disease receiving increase
hyperbolic time chamber
walking around at SSJ was also a training tactic
7 year jump to buu in otherworld where he did nothing but train and fight with warriors with over thousands of years experience
10 years after buu
SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3

thats a whole lot to add in there, and look at the big increase in strength and speed in otherworld when he went to SSJ 
the guy went from not moving 40 tons at all to tossing it on his back and running like he had nothing on him at all.

we may not be able to throw images, but we can throw shit out there that has happened.  i'm not putting a number out there for strength cause that is not the lasting factor of a fight, but first of all u have to find out what the hell his max was at SSJ, and considering SSJ to SSJ2 is a bigger jump than base to SSJ, and SSJ3 to SSJ2 is slightly larger jumper than SSJ to SSJ2. how strong is goku?

and unless u prove batman couldn't see them fighting or show me a fight where the human eye couldn't see her fighting, then maybe u can pass level one of can she keep up with Goku in a fight.  cause u keep acting as if this is a race


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## konflikti (Dec 15, 2005)

Acapella said:
			
		

> Bullshit


That particular line was from... 1938 or something. Good job finding recent info.



			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> and i haven't seen anything to go against my fight calculation, i think evilmoogle was referring to foot speed in his post. if vegeta had to output enough force and acceleration to reach 40 percent the speed of light just to train in base form at the beginning of cell, imagine what goku could do at the end of buu, i won't throw out numbers but keep these in mind.


You can't calculate velocies like that. If I can accelrate for say, 2 m/s^2 and keep jogging for a day does that mean I can run 172800m/s after jogging for 24h? Oh, and planes has nothing to do with this, since Gokus flying is mystical and not based on physics, un-like planes. He doesn't fly because he goes fast enough for the air currents to lift him, he flies because he wants to.


----------



## Master Scorpion (Dec 15, 2005)

Wonder woman would kick goku's ass with no sorry.....You could feel annoyed when you heard goku's voice


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## EvilMoogle (Dec 15, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> it would be different for goku, because if you are in a place with a magnified gravity meaning that your whole body is being affected.  if you are carrying 10 percent of your body weight it could be on your shoulders or back, and not much of that percentage would be pushed to your legs.
> 
> the way gravity training would affect u is like putting that 10 percent of your body weight all over your body, which would equal out what you're doing after your body adjust, so u could in fact become 450 times faster.


Actually, in a high G environment it would have even less impact because the weight is evenly distributed amongst all your muscles.  However lacking a way to simulate this for you I'll drop the discussion for now.




			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> one thing about that calculation is that they actually use it for jets in the airforce for how much they can put on the jet or plane.  i think that calculation works a lot better for goku flying, but my whole point was that he was actually fighting in that gravity.  and afterwhile he was fighting at the speed that he was making people gasp in the first place.


I'm sorry unknowndanex, but take a physics course or two.  You will NEVER use that formula the way you're trying to use it, you have fundimental flaws in your argument.  


*Spoiler*: _Physics Lession_ 




Here are the things you need to know to use that formula.

Vf = Vi + A*t

Most importantly, "A" is the acceleration along the vector you're looking at.  The only time this "A" would be the force of gravity would be if the subject were rising or falling.  And even in that case, it doesn't count if there is an additional force in the equation (for example, Goku flying up away from the source of Gravity is an additional force that would need to be added into the system).

So, outright it's useless for what you want to do with it, but let's continue.

"T" is the time that the acceleration happens.  Again, even if we were in a system where we could use this formula to calculate Goku's speed, unless Goku were constantly accelerating during this time, this formula is worthless.

Vi is the initial velocity before the acceleration starts, and vf is the final velocity after the acceleration ends (or at least after you stop wanting to measure it).

So, if we were measuring, say, an unconcious Goku falling off a bridge with negligable wind resistance we could use this to find the speed he'd be going after 3 seconds by plugging in vi=0, a=9.8m/s, t=3s and would get vf=29.4m/s with a positive noting a velocity towards the Earth.  This calculation assumes negligable wind resistance.

Or if Goku were running a footrace and we know he accelerates at a constant rate for the first three seconds, is initially stopped and is going 4m/s at the end of it that would give us vi=0, vf=4m/s, t=3 and we would get his acceleration a=1.33m/s.  You'll note that this calculation does not include gravity because we're assuming he's running the foot race along the ground, not up a wall.

This is basic highschool physics, I'd be happy to continue if you want.




The short answer is that there is no way to calculate Goku's speed without acutally knowing some information about him.  Here's one additional calculation to try to put it into perspective for you.

*Spoiler*: _EvilMoogle's Speed_ 




vf=vi+a*t.

I've trainined on Earth my entire life, so a=9.8m/s.
We'll assume I wasn't moving when I was born, so vi=0m/s.
I've been training for 26+ years, about 845467200s.

That means my potiental max speed is: 8285578560m/s!!!  That's 16250 times the speed of light.

Excuse me, I'm going to go whup the flashes butt


----------



## Gunners (Dec 15, 2005)

Bullet learn to edit your post, youve made a tripple post and some doubles.

Anyway gokou wins, imo he is faster, regardless of speed he would own her with the attacks, energy attacks that can blow up more than a planet hitting wonder woman imo would damage/kill her, if you have more infomation on wonder womans powers on surviving planet blowing up attacks please tell me.


----------



## ~Kaio-Cam~ (Dec 15, 2005)

i quit

this is pointless now, the majority of people already know Goku is stronger than every freakin DC character. Everyone supporting DC characters are unable to show/give proof on how wonderwoman and Superman are stronger than Goku (as in showing us something that WW and Superman can do better than Goku. You have yet to show us.) One of the comics Bullet has showed me about the super heroes flying through space at hyper speed. How come they did not freeze of just blow up like a balloon? There's no air in space. Goku can use Instant Transmission so none of the superfriends can top him in getting from one place to another. I'll just stop here cause this is ridiculous. They wont be convinced, no changing their choice. I suggest everyone else just quit because Bullet has yet to show us a good comparison. I mean look we can end this thread by simplying saying:

Goku can destroy the Earth 100X DONE!

Besides, i like superman and all, but the Costumes, cape, and storyline of DC comics and tv series just doesnt catch me in a entertaining way. Movies are the best though. Done................


----------



## korican04 (Dec 15, 2005)

^ dude you should quit, you just asked why things happend to comic book characters like not freazing and blowing up. Because um they are comic book characters and stuff doesn't have to make sense, it's like asking why superman or rogue can fly. And same thing for goku, why is it ok for goku to be able to learn how to teleport, it's a manga, stuff like this doesn't have to make sense.


----------



## Gunners (Dec 15, 2005)

korican04 said:
			
		

> ^ dude you should quit, you just asked why things happend to comic book characters like not freazing and blowing up. Because um they are comic book characters and stuff doesn't have to make sense, it's like asking why superman or rogue can fly. And same thing for goku, why is it ok for goku to be able to learn how to teleport, it's a manga, stuff like this doesn't have to make sense.




Well in dbz they explain why characters can do things, dc is about characters doing shit, with some dc version of physics.

Dbz sort of sticks to reality to a sense.


----------



## konflikti (Dec 15, 2005)

gunners said:
			
		

> Well in dbz they explain why characters can do things, dc is about characters doing shit, with some dc version of physics.
> 
> Dbz sort of sticks to reality to a sense.


Ki isn't an explanation. It's just the same as "Speed Force" or kryptonian heritage.

Majority of people are smart enough to realize that Acapella hasn't read a DC comic since 1930s.


----------



## korican04 (Dec 15, 2005)

Have I just read right and read that dbz sticks to reality. lol
Yeah blowing up the moon and not having any catostrophic affects on the earth is real real... goku powerpoled to the moon and left three people yeah..reality. 
Being able to shoot lasers or teleport because of ki is a great explanation. It's just as bull as what comics make up for explanations. That's why we have to take what they can do as is. At least comics try to do some nonsensical mumbo jumbo with science involved to pass it off. DBZ explanations for things are ki and training.


----------



## Gunners (Dec 15, 2005)

> Ki isn't an explanation. It's just the same as "Speed Force" or kryptonian heritage.



Yeh it can also be some people beleif to what we have, the point is you can understand with dbz why they can do things related to ki. With dc a lot of the things are done without reasoning behind.



> Have I just read right and read that dbz sticks to reality. lol
> Yeah blowing up the moon and not having any catostrophic affects on the earth is real real... goku powerpoled to the moon and left three people yeah..reality.
> Being able to shoot lasers or teleport because of ki is a great explanation. It's just as bull as what comics make up for explanations. That's why we have to take what they can do as is. At least comics try to do some nonsensical mumbo jumbo with science involved to pass it off. DBZ explanations for things are ki and training.



Use common sense.

Dbz in that sense isnt realistic, with how the world works i know, but with the fighting you can understand why characters can do what they do, with dc you cant other than the sun light gave him strenght, a chemisrty gone wrong, will power etc.

DBZ has realistic reasons to the strength, whilst dc gave the characters powers first then came up with reasonings after.

Boy you thought you were the smart one.


----------



## The Warrior (Dec 15, 2005)

gunners said:
			
		

> Yeh it can also be some people beleif to what we have, the point is you can understand with dbz why they can do things related to ki. With dc a lot of the things are done without reasoning behind.
> Use common sense.
> Dbz in that sense isnt realistic, with how the world works i know, but with the fighting you can understand why characters can do what they do, with dc you cant other than the sun light gave him strenght, a chemisrty gone wrong, will power etc.
> 
> ...


A science experiment gone wrong producing mutations in one's DNA enhancing strength and speed beyond normal human limitations is a helluva lot more realistice than "HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" and then his hair glows yellow and he's somehow stronger, and in different clothes too for SSJ4, and he can project energy from his hands, enough to destroy and entire planet, all because he's trained himself physically to do so, also scientifically impossible.
Like you said, use common sense.


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## Gunners (Dec 15, 2005)

> A science experiment gone wrong producing mutations in one's DNA enhancing strength and speed beyond normal human limitations is a helluva lot more realistice than "HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" and then his hair glows yellow and he's somehow stronger, and in different clothes too for SSJ4, and he can project energy from his hands, enough to destroy and entire planet, all because he's trained himself physically to do so, also scientifically impossible.
> Like you said, use common sense.



No it isnt, science expirements wouldnt change your potential to the point where you can move at the speed of light, it is also the fact that dc is set in a world where it is simular to ours, dbz is diffrent, the runnings of the world is completly diffrent.

I supose your a dc fan whilst i prefer manga.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Dec 15, 2005)

gunners said:
			
		

> No it isnt, science expirements wouldnt change your potential to the point where you can move at the speed of light, it is also the fact that dc is set in a world where it is simular to ours, dbz is diffrent, the runnings of the world is completly diffrent.
> 
> I supose your a dc fan whilst i prefer manga.



DC has explained that all super fast movement is obtained through a extra-dimensional force known as the speed force. Sure, it dosnt make sence in real life but its a lot better then "Ki did"


----------



## Gunners (Dec 15, 2005)

with ki, you can understand limits, why people are capable of certain things.

With dc people are given idividual powers which in some case make no sense, honestly i picked up on the whole ki thing, i was like another add on to humans.

With dc they have to go into diff dimentions etc, to explain their powers.

Besides that isnt the point, gokou imo would smash wonder woman to pieces.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 15, 2005)

*


			
				gunners said:
			
		


			Bullet learn to edit your post, youve made a tripple post and some doubles.
		
Click to expand...

*
I only quote the people I disagreed with.

*Anyway gokou wins, imo he is faster, regardless of speed he would own her with the attacks, energy attacks that can blow up more than a planet hitting wonder woman imo would damage/kill her, if you have more infomation on wonder womans powers on surviving planet blowing up attacks please tell me*

IMO Goku isn't faster than WW, if he use his moutain/city (not planet destroying) destroying energy blasts she'll just deflect them with her bands and whould badly damage Goku with her strength or wrap him in her lasso. Goku has never survived a planet destroying attack either.



			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Besides that isnt the point, gokou imo would smash wonder woman to pieces.



Which still havn't been proven yet at all.


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## Gunners (Dec 15, 2005)

^^^ and you havent proven ww can beat gokou.

In battledomes you will never get full blown proof with these types as theyre in a diffrent dimension, im going by my assumptions wonder woman would die after being struck by a set amount of ki blast with enough power to blow up 10 planets or more.


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## Bullet (Dec 15, 2005)

> gunners said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Gunners (Dec 15, 2005)

sajin saga gokou could blow up a planet, his power more than 10 folder up to freiza point, your point????

He would outclass ww in power, and speed imo, you can only measure speed with figures with dbz it isnt like that, 

Side: dont bring in gotenks shit, akira isnt good at calculations is established.


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## Valdens (Dec 15, 2005)

shika shika boo said:
			
		

> OMG people since vegeta first appeared dbz chars have been able to blow up planets... imagine what ss3 goku could do with a kamehameha.



that was a canonless filler episode.


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## TGC (Dec 15, 2005)

Masamunenissay said:
			
		

> Goku wins,end of story



what he said...


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## Bullet (Dec 15, 2005)

> gunners said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## korican04 (Dec 15, 2005)

gunners said:
			
		

> Yeh it can also be some people beleif to what we have, the point is you can understand with dbz why they can do things related to ki. With dc a lot of the things are done without reasoning behind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol, alright dude if you like that reason for people growing in strength to those ridiculous levels because you trained hard go right ahead. Ok so krillin who was not able to run 100 meters in 10 secs in dragon ball now because of some training and some ki factor can throw lasers, fly really fast and pick up buildings.  so is this the realistic reason to their strengths? Please answer since you seem to be the "smart one" as you nicely put it.

look i'm not trying to start something (although i think we already did), but my point is that saying oh why isn't superman freazing to do death in space can be argued just as much as why goku can learn how to teleport. Or how is Cable able to fly because he has a super brain or how can goku fly because he uses ki. That's all really. 

I understand your point about everyone uses ki in dbz, so that's how they get strong, it's one world, maybe saying it's realistic is maybe the wrong word choice.In dc and marvel it's really just a convoluted mess sometimes.


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## Bullet (Dec 15, 2005)

How do I quote two or three people at the same time?


----------



## acritarch (Dec 15, 2005)

Um, just copy and paste then put it between:

[qoute=name]pasted stuff here[/qoute] 

with the word 'quote' spelled right, of course.


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## Bullet (Dec 15, 2005)

braindx said:
			
		

> Um, just copy and paste then put it between:
> 
> [qoute=name]pasted stuff here[/qoute]
> 
> with the word 'quote' spelled right, of course.



Oh, okay thanks!


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## The Warrior (Dec 15, 2005)

Gunners, ki makes no sense, it's impossible, the experiments improving you, not impossible, improbable, yes, for now, but with all of the genetic engineering today, it's not far off.
lol
and no, I'm not a dc fan in particular, manga is cool, but marvel kicks dc's ass.
back on topic.
There really is no competition in my opinion though, wonder woman, while strong and fast, does not nearly have enough to beat goku.
Supes on the other hand, I think that might be a better fight, meh, goku'd still probably win, I say just send a ki blast to blow up the planet, and instant transmission away, end of story.
lol


----------



## Pinkaugust (Dec 15, 2005)

Goku wins, but if he knew how, he'd get funky and do the hustle!


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## Pinkaugust (Dec 15, 2005)

The Warrior said:
			
		

> Gunners, ki makes no sense, it's impossible, the experiments improving you, not impossible, improbable, yes, for now, but with all of the genetic engineering today, it's not far off.
> lol
> and no, I'm not a dc fan in particular, manga is cool, but marvel kicks dc's ass.
> back on topic.
> ...


Superman can survive in space, Goku would have to destroy him entirely, like Cell or Buu.. Ki makes sense.. I've seen an old fart use his Ki to heat up a wet towel until it was dry.. Only put his hands on it and it started smoking.. I also saw him stand on paper which another man, just his wieght, could not, because he used his Ki to make him lighter..
Though it is probably impossible to do the things they do in DBZ.. that man had trained all his life and only got as far as that..


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Dec 15, 2005)

People need to give the "Goku would blow the planet up and IT away!" crap a rest already when Goku is matched up with someone who's stronger and/or faster than he is because it's getting really fucking anoying.

As for the fight, like I said before, I don't see how Goku wins(even though it's a more even fight than Goku/Supes) considering what Diana has in her favor(strength, speed, experience, durability). While the ki-blasts could balance things out a bit, I don't think Goku would last long enough to win before his energy runs out and WW hands his ass to him.


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## unknowndanex (Dec 16, 2005)

EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> Actually, in a high G environment it would have even less impact because the weight is evenly distributed amongst all your muscles.  However lacking a way to simulate this for you I'll drop the discussion for now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



actually i'm at UVA and got a B+ in Phys 1 and a A in Phys 2, if u pay attention to anything i say, i was really formulating it based on the fact that goku gets used to the gravity like it ain't nothing and it was just an estimate. so its actually 450x gravity compared to what we are on, so that little example u threw there was pretty stupid.  and in my earlier post i mentioned something about flying, but then i changed it to high speed fighting.  but whoever said there wasn't enough proof was right though.

Ki in fact does make make more since than an interdimensional speed force.  Ki is based on chi, just to a higher extent, ki is your inner energy, inner energy that people normally have.  no one has an interdimensional force on them making sure they break physics all the time, but its comic book so who cares.  

I know a lot of people will be happy that this is my last post for the holiday, so start smiling and cracking jokes.  My last opionated response shall be.

WW has not been proven to be faster than Goku or fight at a speed that Goku fights at.  Bullet has still not responded to when i said Batman could see WW and Flash fighting at a "high speed", he just posted the same damn picture i just discredited.  Goku and Vegeta actually choose to hold back their attacks in a way that it doesn't destroy everything considering their loved ones are on the planet.  Kid Buu destroyed the Earth in one attack, Vegeta's Galick Gun could destroy the world, Frieza has destroyed two planets.  When Vegeta and Goku unleash their mega attacks, they center the impact on the opponent, their big attacks don't normally miss.  They either get blocked or just taken like a man.

Just like all DC characters WW is being totally overrated here in terms of speed and power.  Superman holds back his punches on her, batman blatantly sees her fighting flash but "they were fighting so fast", the only speed feat i see is an inconsistent comic of her running with Jesse Quick and the last time i checked this was supposed to be a fight not a race.  Goku would easily beat WW based on skills, speed, power, and ki, and I know dag on well Supes would not easily beat Goku.  Considering Toriyama based Goku on Superman it would be a pretty even fight.  Layoff the DC fanboyism.  Not directed at everyone, but the people i'm referring to know who i'm talking to.

last post, have a wonderful christmas and a happy new year!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i'll argue with yall later.


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## EvilMoogle (Dec 16, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> actually i'm at UVA and got a B+ in Phys 1 and a A in Phys 2, if u pay attention to anything i say, i was really formulating it based on the fact that goku gets used to the gravity like it ain't nothing and it was just an estimate.





			
				unknowndanex said:
			
		

> this is a calculation on how much velocity u would have to be able to output just by walking in 450x gravity. so as an estimate on time, i'll say vegeta can walk for a good three days under 450x.



I weep for the future.

Short and simple.  The fact that Goku/Vegeta/etc can stand in 450x gravity is an impressive display of their strength and durability.  This is because their body has to withstand the forces associated with this as opposed to being crushed into jelly like a real-world human would be.

Goku/Vegeta/etc walking while under 450x gravity shows no additional force because any acceleration/force/velocity they're doing is at a 90-degree angle to the force caused by Gravity.  Sure we could do some minimal calculations based on stride length but that's getting into the realm on nonsense.

If you want to know more, PM me and I'll be happy to go into basic high school physics.

That aside, the ONLY estimations of speed we've had for Goku/et all is the Gotenks example that people don't like because it shows how slow the DBZ fighters really are.

The only other close estimate of speed we have is that they "move too fast to see" to this I direct you to an analisys of Seta Sojurio:
Link removed

This calculates the "speed of invisibility" to be between 136.36mph and 700mph.  Of course, this starts happening far too early in the series to be useful.


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## Bullet (Dec 16, 2005)

unknowndanex said:
			
		

> > WW has not been proven to be faster than Goku or fight at a speed that Goku fights at.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Valdens (Dec 16, 2005)

bullet, you have officially created something worse than superman vs smoker. seriously dude, wheter you are right or not, they are entitled to their opinion. stop destroying and correcting everyones posts. youve made your point. now quit. i dont even know if you are still serious or keeping this up for the helluvit like i did in superman vs smoker. that last post basically sums up everything you said, so stop flaming people and go post somewhere else.


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## konflikti (Dec 16, 2005)

Valdens said:
			
		

> bullet, you have officially created something worse than superman vs smoker. seriously dude, wheter you are right or not, they are entitled to their opinion. stop destroying and correcting everyones posts. youve made your point. now quit. i dont even know if you are still serious or keeping this up for the helluvit like i did in superman vs smoker. that last post basically sums up everything you said, so stop flaming people and go post somewhere else.


Except that in your particular case there was a clear victor, and you were the only one debating against him.


----------



## Valdens (Dec 16, 2005)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Except that in your particular case there was a clear victor, and you were the only one debating against him.



but i wasnt flaming people, triple posting, correcting everyones posts, saying the same thing over and ober, a lot of people found it funny, and thanks to it smoker prime was created. this thread and bullets flaming triple posting opinion correcting ect. is way over the top compared to the good laugh that was superman vs smoker.


----------



## Bullet (Dec 16, 2005)

Valdens said:
			
		

> but i wasnt flaming people, triple posting, correcting everyones posts, saying the same thing over and ober, a lot of people found it funny, and thanks to it smoker prime was created. this thread and bullets flaming triple posting opinion correcting ect. is way over the top compared to the good laugh that was superman vs smoker.




I'll quit when they quit responding, that's the only way I can know that I've actually won the debate!


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## Valdens (Dec 16, 2005)

you obviously arent going to. what you just listed above is called spamming. its not about winning the debate so dont make it. so seriously bullet, you keep this up and ill neg rep you. i didnt let you win jax vs balrog and your not going to win this one by spamming either.


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## Bullet (Dec 16, 2005)

Valdens said:
			
		

> you obviously arent going to. what you just listed above is called spamming. its not about winning the debate so dont make it. so seriously bullet, you keep this up and ill neg rep you. i didnt let you win jax vs balrog and your not going to win this one by spamming either.




Who's spamming? I'm debating that's it. I didn't continue arguing in the Jax vs. Balrog thread because it was boring; I really didn't care about that thread and was actully playing around. Here it's different.


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## Valdens (Dec 17, 2005)

but the thing is its gotten to the point of spamming when you say the same things over and over. its time to accept that they have their opinions and stop correcting everyones posts. maybe if you had another canon argument to add to the debate, a post containing that would be fine, but its really just turning this into a desolate thread what you do here. see, i know this, because i used to be like you at the first forum i had bullet. after a while everyone hated me and the forum died. so, morla is, if you dont stop, everyone will hate you because youll kill the forums with your toxic posts. understand?


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## ~Kaio-Cam~ (Dec 17, 2005)

it' over lmao, the majority votes and the majrotiy of posts. It's become a waste of time and energy to prove whats already been proven over and over again. 

lol heat ray vision blowing up earth hahaha


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## acritarch (Dec 17, 2005)

EvilMoogle: The speed of invisibility depends on how close the opponent is away from the character.


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## Bullet (Dec 17, 2005)

Valdens said:
			
		

> but the thing is its gotten to the point of spamming when you say the same things over and over. its time to accept that they have their opinions and stop correcting everyones posts. maybe if you had another canon argument to add to the debate, a post containing that would be fine, but its really just turning this into a desolate thread what you do here. see, i know this, because i used to be like you at the first forum i had bullet. after a while everyone hated me and the forum died. so, morla is, if you dont stop, everyone will hate you because youll kill the forums with your toxic posts. understand?



What you're doing right now is called spamming the thread, by trying to force somebody to stop posting. Now I'm going to continue posting here whenever I disagree with someones opinion, if you don't like it, then don't post here, especailly when it has nothing to do with what were talking about. This is the last time I'm going to be responding to these types of posts from you. Now if you don't like the way I debate, then PM me so we can talk about it, don't the spam the thread with nosense.



> it' over lmao, the majority votes and the majrotiy of posts. It's become a waste of time and energy to prove whats already been proven over and over again.
> 
> lol heat ray vision blowing up earth hahaha



And you're a good example of people who post here without knowing anything about the ohter character. Yes Supes Heat Vision is capable of destroying planets (his Heat Vision engulfed the entire Earth). When was the last time you've read a Superman comic?


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## ~Kaio-Cam~ (Dec 17, 2005)

lmao englulfed the earth? WOW omg *shakes head*


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## Zoro - inactive (Dec 17, 2005)

mgrace said:
			
		

> This is a no-contest event... GOKU for the win.... in seconds


Goku explode then up!


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## Luckey (Dec 17, 2005)

Valdens said:
			
		

> superman>WW, superman >goku
> battle of the superman losers


You're logic is flawed, that's like saying

Mango > Orange so mango > apple

That makes no sense.


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## Bullet (Dec 17, 2005)

Acapella said:
			
		

> lmao englulfed the earth? WOW omg *shakes head*



Like Naruto say, belive it!kyu


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## ~Kaio-Cam~ (Dec 19, 2005)

lol this may cheer u up Bullet.... a fanart from deviantart. Superman beat Goku in this comic. It's funny to me because of the way Goku was created. I honestly never though DC fans would be so touchy on the fact that Superman is not stronger than Goku

































If DC and Akira were to make an official story these 2 heroes, and Superman lost. I think comic book nerds would bring guns to school and go nuts.kyu kyu


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## Bullet (Dec 19, 2005)

Acapella said:
			
		

> lol this may cheer u up Bullet.... a fanart from deviantart. Superman beat Goku in this comic. It's funny to me because of the way Goku was created. I honestly never though DC fans would be so touchy on the fact that Superman is not stronger than Goku
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You really need to stop with the insults, you're making your self sound like a fanboy.  And this post of yours have nothing to do with this thread.


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## Id (Dec 19, 2005)

wonder wins.
She just ties Gokus with her Lazo and beat him to death. While I watch her boobies bounce


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## Bullet (Dec 19, 2005)

Indeed, WW is hot!


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## Valdens (Dec 19, 2005)

wow, this is officially a wasteland thread. and wonder woman doesnt have up to standard size hooters, which is her only flaw.


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## Id (Dec 19, 2005)

Valdens said:
			
		

> wow, this is officially a wasteland thread. and wonder woman doesnt have up to standard size hooters, which is her only flaw.



Ok your the last person to say anything realated to "Thread" "Waste" 

and Anything bigger than Two Hand Fulls is to much on some girls..


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## Valdens (Dec 19, 2005)

wow. that is this close to bathhouse material. nice pics tho. rep.


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## Keyser S?ze (Dec 19, 2005)

goku would win for sure.


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## Bullet (Dec 19, 2005)

> Ok your the last person to say anything realated to "Thread" "Waste"
> 
> and Anything bigger than Two Hand Fulls is to much on some girls..



Nice scans!



> goku would win for sure.



How so?


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## ~Kaio-Cam~ (Dec 19, 2005)

anyone who says Goku wins and that's it knows what he's talkin about mr. bullet. It's just so much we can say, most of us dont know where to start.


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## Bullet (Dec 19, 2005)

> Acapella said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Id (Dec 19, 2005)

Valdens said:
			
		

> wow. that is this close to bathhouse material. nice pics tho. rep.



yeah she is sexy in so many ways aint she?

I think its the boots.


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## ~Kaio-Cam~ (Dec 19, 2005)

my bad, i just realized i posted the wrong urls.. here it is... it's funny. Superman beating Goku. But it's lame. The guy who made this made Goku look like a chinese man with fakeGoku hair.


































It's truely lame, u can telll the guy who made this is a DC Fanatic


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## Id (Dec 19, 2005)

and the time me and WW got cought in the back of my chevy.

*Spoiler*: __ 



I was 17 at the time.


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## Bullet (Dec 19, 2005)

Acapella said:
			
		

> my bad, i just realized i posted the wrong urls.. here it is... it's funny. Superman beating Goku. But it's lame. The guy who made this made Goku look like a chinese man with fakeGoku hair.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay...but again what does this have to do with the thread?



> and the time me and WW got cought in the back of my chevy.


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## Id (Dec 19, 2005)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Okay...but again what does this have to do with the thread?




This does anyone that thinks she is slow think again.


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## ~Kaio-Cam~ (Dec 19, 2005)

it's fan comic superman vs Goku smart one, that's what it has to do with this thread. It's proving that there are little kids with no brains exist outside this forum


and u guys are sick and still immature thinkin of sexual fantasies over cartoons.


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## Bullet (Dec 19, 2005)

> Acapella said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## konflikti (Dec 19, 2005)

Acapella said:
			
		

> I am an idiot.


The artist of that comic gave Goku a chance in it since Supes relentlessly beating Goku wouldn't be fun at all. Supes abilities are downplayed. A lot. You are a fucking idiot for still not finding anything about Supermans abilities and keeping to spout this non-sense. Besides, you know nothing of the artist, what he thought while doing that or anything.


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## ~Kaio-Cam~ (Dec 20, 2005)

i thought the comic was funny because Superman actually had a chance against in SuperS transformation. The artist of the comic, i dont give a damn. The comic basically describes what he thinks of dbz period. Look at how he made Goku. His nose isnt like that, his whole face is squared, and his hair looks like a chinese at a anime convention lol. Superman, is lame, i find nothing wow about it. And again, ur right i know nothing of the artist, i dont care. I gave it a "L" stamp simply because he made Goku lose. not to mention lame on how Superman beat him.


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## Bullet (Dec 20, 2005)

Acapella said:
			
		

> i thought the comic was funny because Superman actually had a chance against in SuperS transformation. The artist of the comic, i dont give a damn. The comic basically describes what he thinks of dbz period. Look at how he made Goku. His nose isnt like that, his whole face is squared, and his hair looks like a chinese at a anime convention lol. Superman, is lame, i find nothing wow about it. And again, ur right i know nothing of the artist, i dont care. I gave it a "L" stamp simply because he made Goku lose. not to mention lame on how Superman beat him.



Take this to a Superman vs. Goku thread then.


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## Valdens (Dec 20, 2005)

my god, you guys whine whine whine whine whine whine whinewhine whine whine whine whine! quit! bullet! your so busy defending yourself and WW you cant tell when ppl are joking! and acapella! its been stated by everyone thats smart(including who made that comic) that superman>goku! and nice scans id.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Dec 20, 2005)

...I think this thread has died !


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