# Dr. Manhattan vs. DBZ verse w/prep(Movies included)



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 3, 2011)

Dr. Manhattan vs. DBZverse w/prep(Movies included)

Dr. Manhattan is on one side and the DBZ verse is on the other.

DBZverse get's 1 month of prep.

Enemies will cooperate with the good guys in the DBZ verse.

DBZ verse has knowledge of Dr. Manhattan.

All fighters that have ever appeared in the DBZ verse are included in this fight.

The battle site will be on The Supreme Kai's planet.

Who wins?


----------



## Bioness (Oct 3, 2011)

Does the Dragon Ball verse even have anyone with brains to actually do prep? besides you know training their asses off.

They still won't be able to kill Doctor Manhattan while he can use blink and they all turn to dust.


----------



## Heavenly King (Oct 3, 2011)

the good doctor kills them all


----------



## MrChubz (Oct 4, 2011)

Bioness said:


> Does the Dragon Ball verse even have anyone with brains to actually do prep? besides you know training their asses off.
> 
> They still won't be able to kill Doctor Manhattan while he can use blink and they all turn to dust.



Bulma and Bulma's dad. It's not like they'll stand a chance either way.


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 4, 2011)

Bioness said:


> Does the Dragon Ball verse even have anyone with brains to actually do prep? besides you know training their asses off.
> 
> *They still won't be able to kill Doctor Manhattan while he can use blink and they all turn to dust.*



Isn't that a bit of NLF? Just asking because in the movies, the only people he distenegrates are low level superhumans. Why would the same tactic work on planet busters?


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 4, 2011)

Uncle Phantom said:


> Isn't that a bit of NLF? Just asking because* in the movies*, the only people he distenegrates are low level superhumans. Why would the same tactic work on planet busters?





Uncle Phantom said:


> *in the movies*


----------



## Solrac (Oct 4, 2011)

Dr. Manhattan steamrolls most of the DBZ-verse.


----------



## enzymeii (Oct 4, 2011)

Can Shenron override Manhattan's powers?  That's the question here...


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 4, 2011)

enzymeii said:


> Can Shenron override Manhattan's powers?  That's the question here...



Shenron most impressive feat is reviving people, so no, he is not going to stop a gut who was able to regen after being completely desintegrated.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 4, 2011)

Uncle Phantom said:


> Isn't that a bit of NLF? Just asking because in the movies, the only people he distenegrates are low level superhumans. Why would the same tactic work on planet busters?



not especially because he does is temporal based transmutation and pretty advanced at that.

to my knowledge the only character ever to show any kind of resistance to an ability that resembles that was kid buu and even then the Majin principle of transmutation is..very different from the good Doctor does


----------



## Mickey Mouse (Oct 4, 2011)

They all wish they were immortal, or their strongest was immortal. Not Even the good doctor can do anything about it.


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 4, 2011)

VastoLorDae said:


> They all wish they were immortal, or their strongest was immortal. Not Even the good doctor can do anything about it.



If they could do that, they would have done it after the first or second time they were killed, instead of having to revive each other every time some enemy appeared.


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 4, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> If they could do that, they would have done it after the first or second time they were killed, instead of having to revive each other every time some enemy appeared.



Technically they can, it's just the good guys never wanted to be.

There's even a character who successfully obtained it(Garlick Jr.)


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 4, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> not especially because he does is temporal based transmutation and pretty advanced at that.
> 
> to my knowledge the only character ever to show any kind of resistance to an ability that resembles that was kid buu and even then the Majin principle of transmutation is..very different from the good Doctor does



Wouldn't Vegeto be resistant to it as well? Fighting as a jawbreaker and all.


----------



## enzymeii (Oct 4, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> Shenron most impressive feat is reviving people, so no, he is not going to stop a gut who was able to regen after being completely desintegrated.



Well that's downplaying a bit... and unfair because that's all he was ever asked to do.  Even still, we know that his abilities can warp reality, at least a bit (power over death, made someone a king, made ladies' underwear fall out of the sky, etc...), and work on a universal scale (bringing people from other dimensions, across galaxies, etc..).  I don't see why Manhattan should have any immunity to magic.  All they should have to do is wish that his powers stop working...


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 4, 2011)

Uncle Phantom said:


> Wouldn't Vegeto be resistant to it as well? Fighting as a jawbreaker and all.



it's a different form of transmutation is my only issue one is temporal and molecular the other is mystical and John tends to 'turn to sludge" rather than "alter forms"


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Oct 4, 2011)

Dr. Manhattan takes this, but he's also lacking in the feats department in most of his stats.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 4, 2011)

enzymeii said:


> Well that's downplaying a bit... and unfair because that's all he was ever asked to do.  Even still, we know that his abilities can warp reality, at least a bit (power over death, made someone a king, made ladies' underwear fall out of the sky, etc...), and work on a universal scale (bringing people from other dimensions, across galaxies, etc..).  I don't see why Manhattan should have any immunity to magic.  All they should have to do is wish that his powers stop working...



yeah The Dragon can't kill beings beyond its creators PL

so you were saying?


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Oct 4, 2011)

How does that even work out of verse?


----------



## Francesco. (Oct 4, 2011)

Prep and knowledge? Guldo stop time, and Bu turn's Manhattan into chocolate.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Oct 4, 2011)

1. Guldo stopping time would stop Buu too...
2. Manhattan would just transform back...


----------



## Francesco. (Oct 4, 2011)

Ginyuu body switch?


----------



## Bender (Oct 4, 2011)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> 1. Guldo stopping time would stop Buu too...
> 2. Manhattan would just transform back...



Guldo solos 

after all he's faster than Burter and he's the fastest in the universe.


----------



## killfox (Oct 4, 2011)

If buu absorbed guildo he could have unlimited timestop because he doesnt need to breathe.


----------



## ss5 (Oct 4, 2011)

killfox said:


> If buu absorbed guildo he could have unlimited timestop because he doesnt need to breathe.



Lol, this.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Oct 4, 2011)

If you need to add non canon movies and give them a month of prep to boot you've already acknowledged they'd lose in canon. Wait, it's the guy who made a fanfiction Buu thread.

Manhattan still has the H4X and intelligence to win. He can perceive past, present and future(though not omniscient and Tachyons can block his precog), teleport himself or others across planetary to Galaxy ranges(many go into a star or black hole), intangibility/phasing through people, duplication, ability to perceive atoms and electrons even manipulating them for high level transmutation(he turns them into rocks then dumps them into or black hole).Basically he has ways to counter characters who can teleport or survive in space or regen basically and no Ginyu is not body switching someone whose beyond physical nor is Buu absorbing something beyond any matter he's absorbed, candy beam is useless against a guy who could turn himself back or do the same. 

He's quantum in nature as well if I recall.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 4, 2011)

Admiral Shujin said:


> Prep and knowledge? Guldo stop time, and Bu turn's Manhattan into chocolate.



stop time on a temporal being?

no



Admiral Shujin said:


> Ginyuu body switch?



does Ginyuu know how to even control a body that seems to be made entirely of tahcyons and temporal energies?

no..he does not he ends up just like John was when he first got his powers..a descorporated mass floating around unable to act




Azrael Finalstar said:


> How does that even work out of verse?



what the Dragon? if it's brought with you to the battlefield i don't see why it wouldn't work


----------



## Bender (Oct 4, 2011)

Yeah in all seriousness though Dr. M stomps


----------



## I3igAl (Oct 4, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> does Ginyuu know how to even control a body that seems to be made entirely of tahcyons and temporal energies?
> 
> no..he does not he ends up just like John was when he first got his powers..a descorporated mass floating around unable to act



That's true but I still see it working. I mean any Post-Frieza arc character could oneshot Jon, when he is in Ginyu's body.


----------



## Nevermind (Oct 4, 2011)

Raigen Effect.

In full play.


----------



## Bender (Oct 4, 2011)

Nevermind said:


> Raigen Effect.
> 
> In full play.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IUECIgN3qc&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

Love da Fonz


----------



## enzymeii (Oct 4, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> yeah The Dragon can't kill beings beyond its creators PL
> 
> so you were saying?



Did I say kill?  Its not like manhattan has a PL anyhow, since he's not Ki based...


----------



## Bender (Oct 4, 2011)

I was thinking of posting that video. 



Nevermind said:


> [YOUTUBE]yyzK6e6py9A[/YOUTUBE]



"Now sit on it"


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Oct 4, 2011)

enzymeii said:


> Did I say kill?  Its not like manhattan has a PL anyhow, since he's not Ki based...



No, power level is just a fancy way of whose stronger in number form,not exclusive to dragonball either. So the point stands, Silver Surfer does not have a number but his level of power is still beyond Shenron that's the kind of logic he meant, Manhattan is not Surfer level but the reason is the same. 



> That's true but I still see it working. I mean any Post-Frieza arc character could oneshot Jon, when he is in Ginyu's body



Give a feat of Ginyu body switching with a guy whose not even physical? manhattan's body is not even biological like Goku's.


----------



## enzymeii (Oct 4, 2011)

Tranquil Fury said:


> No, power level is just a fancy way of whose stronger in number form. So the point stands.



Don't the androids not have power levels for that very reason?  I'm pretty sure power level is a measure of Ki....

this source would seem to agree with me: 


> [power levels are] first introduced in Dragon Ball, where Goku as a kid learns to sense ki after drinking the Ultra Divine Water, although the Z Fighters are able to detect power levels via the ki sensing ability eventually.



And again, I didn't say kill, I said take away his power.  I still don't see any reason Dr. M shouldn't be vulnerable to magic.


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 4, 2011)

enzymeii said:


> Don't the androids not have power levels for that very reason?  I'm pretty sure power level is a measure of Ki....


And they didn't erase or kill the androids neither, nor nullifided their powers, even though they didn't had ki, so moot point.



enzymeii said:


> And again, I didn't say kill, I said take away his power.  I still don't see any reason Dr. M shouldn't be vulnerable to magic.


Because he is well above anyone is DBZ, Sheron and his creator included.


----------



## I3igAl (Oct 4, 2011)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Give a feat of Ginyu body switching with a guy whose not even physical? manhattan's body is not even biological like Goku's.



Is this necessary? It seems like some kind of soul switch since it is transferred out of their heads. There is no reason believe it is a physical attack, since whatever Ginyu transferes shure isn't physical. (Unless you want to claim he teleport his brain around)

Also Dr. Manhattan has a physical body just on a subatomic level. That's why he radiates Cherenkov radiaton.(Sorry I'm not really a physisist I can't explain it better.)


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Oct 4, 2011)

Someone with 5,000 in DB is stronger than someone with 500 because more ki= more/better stats, why do you think Raditz can blitz someone weaker in power level?. Power level numbers are based on whatever the writer of that verse wants. You are arguing a technicality. Saying Odin has a higher power level than anyone in Dragonball would not be wrong, he's stronger than them in every stat by a huge amount.

Kill or not won't change the fact Manhattan's powers are beyond anything Shenron could do such on.

EDIT Yes it's necessary as well as the soul part, the mechanics of such an attack has never been explained in universe and I said Manhattan is not *biological*, does having atoms necessarily make something biological? Physical body won't change the fact it's different from Saiyan.

EDIT 2 Okay if I recall he did have some nerves while reforming from having his intrinsic field,  won't really matter he can duplicate himself, has intangibility and precog.


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 4, 2011)

I3igAl said:


> Is this necessary? It seems like some kind of soul switch since it is transferred out of their heads. There is no reason believe it is a physical attack, since whatever Ginyu transferes shure isn't physical. (Unless you want to claim he teleport his brain around)
> 
> Also Dr. Manhattan has a physical body just on a subatomic level. That's why he radiates Cherenkov radiaton.(Sorry I'm not really a physisist I can't explain it better.)



He has a non linear perception of time, his body is basically pure energy,  and  can regenerate from being desintegrated, when has Ginyu ever controled a being like that, and that can regenerate from being desintegrated.
Also you have no besis to claim is a soul based attack, in any case is just some kind of mind rape, and considering thar Jon dosn't percive time as linear, and therdore his conscience of before Ginyu attack would still exist, i seriously doubt he is going to do nothing to Jon.


----------



## enzymeii (Oct 4, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> And they didn't erase or kill the androids neither, nor nullifided their powers, even though they didn't had ki, so moot point.



simple PIS, dear Watson.  



> Because he is well above anyone is DBZ, Sheron and his creator included.



What does "above" mean here?  You're just talking about his ability to win in a fight, I'm talking about their Ki, or their life-force.  If you think about it makes sense: the Dragonballs don't have power over anyone with a greater _lifeforce_ than Dende, but is Manhattan's _lifeforce_ greater than Dende's?  Its a different scale.  



			
				Tranquil Fury said:
			
		

> Someone with 5,000 in DB is stronger than someone with 500 because more ki= more/better stats, why do you think Raditz can blitz someone weaker in power level?. Power level numbers are based on whatever the writer of that verse wants. You are arguing a technicality. Saying Odin has a higher power level than anyone in Dragonball would not be wrong, he's stronger than them in every stat by a huge amount.
> 
> Kill or not won't change the fact Manhattan's powers are beyond anything Shenron could do such on.



I assume this is directed at me?  Odin would be different because he has defense against magic, and powers that are explicitly linked to his "lifeforce" (the Odinforce, naturally), so equivalency would come into play.  Manhattan's got his powers from science though... its a different scale.


----------



## I3igAl (Oct 4, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> He has a non linear perception of time, his body is basically pure energy,  and  can regenerate from being desintegrated, when has Ginyu ever controled a being like that, and that can regenerate from being desintegrated.
> Also you have no besis to claim is a soul based attack, in any case is just some kind of mind rape, and considering thar Jon dosn't percive time as linear, and therdore his conscience of before Ginyu attack would still exist, i seriously doubt he is going to do nothing to Jon.



Never said Ginyu could control him. I'm pretty confident he wouldn't be able to control Jon's body and fall apart instantly.

The argument with the perception oftime makes sense however. So mind switch won't work.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Oct 4, 2011)

> simple PIS, dear Watson



They could not get rid of the Saiyans either. Anything more powerful than Shenron can't be influenced in the way you suggest though they can be brought back to life, you arguing a technicality of what counts as a power level in Dragonball won't change this fact or the point being argued.


----------



## enzymeii (Oct 4, 2011)

Tranquil Fury said:


> They could not get rid of the Saiyans either. Anything more powerful than Shenron can't be influenced, you arguing a technicality of what counts as a power level in Dragonball won't change this fact or the point being argued.



Just because its a technicality doesn't mean its not legitimate.  Here's my argument in simple bullet form:

-power level is based on Ki, or life-force, thus
-under obd equivalency, everyone has Ki, so everyone has a power level
-Manhattan doesn't have particularly powerful Ki, he gets his powers from the particle-accelerator accident, thus,
-Manhattan doesn't have a high power level, just like the androids, thus,
-Dende has a higher power level than Manhattan, thus
-The Dragonballs have power over Manhattan

At what stage is there a problem?


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 4, 2011)

enzymeii said:


> Just because its a technicality doesn't mean its not legitimate.  Here's my argument in simple bullet form:
> 
> -power level is based on Ki, or life-force, thus
> -under obd equivalency, everyone has Ki, so everyone has a power level
> ...


That would make sense, if Sheron had killed the Andrioids, but considering that Trunks even had to time travel, instead of just collecting the dragon ball and earasing them, seem to insinuate that they couldn't do such thing.
And you can't just cliam PIS since Sheron dosne't have a single feat insinuating that he could do such thing.


----------



## enzymeii (Oct 4, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> That would make sense, if Sheron had killed the Andrioids, but considering that Trunks even had to time travel, instead of just collecting the dragon ball and earasing them, seem to insinuate that they couldn't do such thing.



Where is it insinuated that he can't kill the android?  



> And you can't just cliam PIS since Sheron dosne't have a single feat insinuating that he could do such thing.



As I've already pointed out, Shenron has a limited degree of reality warping over a trans-galactic/trans-dimensional area.  Manhattan doesn't have a single feat to insinuate resistance against this kind of power.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Oct 4, 2011)

enzymeii said:


> Just because its a technicality doesn't mean its not legitimate.  Here's my argument in simple bullet form:
> 
> -power level is based on Ki, or life-force, thus
> -under obd equivalency, everyone has Ki, so everyone has a power level
> ...



The stage where your thoughts began processing that. Power level in Dragonball is based on ki/life force but when someone has a higher power level(it means that someone is stronger) than Shenron it can't do anything to them like strip them of their powers or anything useful outside revive them or grant immortality, the Saiyans can attest to this since nothing could be done to stop them. King Piccolo could kill Shenron. Puranga could not do anything to harm or dispose of Frieza either. Saying A has a power level of 5,000 and B 500 just means A is stronger than B, Saiyans had higher power level i.e were stronger than Shenron so it could not counter their threat. Manhattan could just kill Dende or Piccolo if you want to keep arguing a technicality.

Dende has a higher power level than Manhattan? Based on what? Guess  Dende could take away Silver Surfer's powers because Surfur has no power level in ki and thus even Dende has a higher power level than Silver Surfer?

Power level can be numbers, level,  class/category or whatever the author decides in fiction but it's just a fancy way of saying whose stronger. So yes, you're being a moron by arguing a technicality.


----------



## enzymeii (Oct 4, 2011)

Tranquil Fury said:


> The stage where your thoughts began processing that. Power level in Dragonball is based on ki/life force but when someone is stronger than Shenron it can't do anything to them like strip them of their powers or erase them or anything useful outside revive them or grant immortality, the Saiyans can attest to this since nothing could be done to stop them. King Piccolo could kill Shenron. Puranga could not do anything to harm or dispose of Frieza either. Saying A has a power level of 5,000 and B 500 just means A is stronger than B, Saiyans had higher power level i.e were stronger so it could not counter their threat.



Higher power level =/= stronger.  Frieza had a higher power level than the Andoids, for instance...  



> Manhattan could just kill Dende or Piccolo if you want to keep arguing a technicality.



But DB has prep


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 4, 2011)

enzymeii said:


> Where is it insinuated that he can't kill the android?


I don't know maybe the fact that instead of using the dragon balls, trunks had to time travel, or the fact the even when they were trying to kill the andrioids before they awakend instead of just using the dragon balls they tired to kill them directly, or the fact that even before the andrioids stomped them, they still didn't use the dragon balls.  
Shenron wasn't even able to turn the Androids into Humans, what make you think that he could strip Jon from his powers.



enzymeii said:


> As I've already pointed out, Shenron has a limited degree of reality warping over a trans-galactic/trans-dimensional area.  Manhattan doesn't have a single feat to insinuate resistance against this kind of power.


A limited reality warping which biggest feat is being able to revie somone thre times at most, and that has been shown to be ineffective against any enemy worth of a damn.
Also Sheron would need to erase Jon from existense, which he can't, since he can regen from being desintegrated, and he has never showed to be able to strip people from thier powers, specially from a guy like Jon.


----------



## enzymeii (Oct 4, 2011)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Dende has a higher power level than Manhattan? Based on what? Guess  Dende could take away Silver Surfer's powers because Surfur has no power level in ki and thus even Dende has a higher power level than Silver Surfer?



Hm... no SS is a different case.  The Power Cosmic is more linked to life-force and would fall under equivalency for Ki imo.  



> Power level can be numbers, level,  class/category or whatever the author decides in fiction but it's just a fancy way of saying whose stronger. So yes, you're being a moron by arguing a technicality.



No need to hate, I'm just arguing about a battle between fictional characters   But I've already refuted this point: power level is Ki, is life-force, not "who would win in a fight".


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Oct 4, 2011)

And Goku had a higher power level than Frieza, Goku has to keep raising his power level to get stronger than the Androids(the numbers are no longer given though because they were getting huge). Power level dictates whose stronger and is just that. Androids like Gero/19 had to keep absorbing Ki to grow, Cell had to absorb people and the Androids 17/18. You cherry picking Androids not having power level in ki won't change the fact what power level represents. 

Do I have to give a chart or dumb down my posts to explain the obvious?

EDIT Okay Hulk. Let's see you make excuses or dodge the point with that.


----------



## Lucaniel (Oct 4, 2011)

manhattan doesn't have a powerset anything like any db character so you obviously can't equalise things like a power level


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Oct 4, 2011)

It actually just occured to me. Chocolate beam is magic based, could he actually reconstitute from magic? its a completely different ballgame. Not that he loses mind you.


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 4, 2011)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> It actually just occured to me. Chocolate beam is magic based, could he actually reconstitute from magic? its a completely different ballgame. Not that he loses mind you.



The beam is magic based, but it's effects are no different from what any Matter Manipulator could do, so he could still regen from being a candy.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Oct 4, 2011)

Being magic does not give something a free pass, it's transmutation and Manhattan can reform from an atomic level. He can control matter at such levels for transmutation to begin with.


----------



## Fang (Oct 4, 2011)

The problem is Dr. Manhattan has absolute and utterly no speed feats. The best is you have someone iirc saying that he can stop a bullet in mid-air.


----------



## masamune1 (Oct 4, 2011)

The Dragonballs don't work in Future Trunk's timeline, either because Dende isn't around to get them to work or because he was killed. Thats why Trunks didn't use them.

At least, I think thats what happened.

Shenron's best feat is resurrecting an entire planet- thats beyond anything that Manhatten has shown. He wasn't even said to be capable of stopping more than 40% of Soviet Russia's nukes if it came to war- hardly the sign of someone on the same level as planet busters. Worst comes to worst they can always get Buu to absorb Dende and see how strong _his_ Dragonballs are.

Also magical transmuation should work, because if Manhatten is able to turn himself back from chocolate...then I contend, he was never really chocolate.


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 4, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> Shenron's best feat is resurrecting an entire planet- thats beyond anything that Manhatten has shown. He wasn't even said to be capable of stopping more than 40% of Soviet Russia's nukes if it came to war- hardly the sign of someone on the same level as planet busters. Worst comes to worst they can always get Buu to absorb Dende and see how strong _his_ Dragonballs are.


And yet he was unable to turn an android into human, so what makes you think he would be able to nullify his power.



masamune1 said:


> He wasn't even said to be capable of stopping more than 40% of Soviet Russia's nukes if it came to war- hardly the sign of someone on the same level as planet busters. Worst comes to worst they can always get Buu to absorb Dende and see how strong _his_ Dragonballs are.


Hax > Destructive capacity.
He can desintegrate them, or BFR them, and they can't kill him.
Also Jon never said he couldn't stop the misiles, i was just speculation with no solid basis. 



masamune1 said:


> Also magical transmuation should work, because if Manhatten is able to turn himself back from chocolate...then I contend, he was never really chocolate.


He regenerated from being completly desintegrated, regenerating from being a candy is no different.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Oct 4, 2011)

Fang said:


> The problem is Dr. Manhattan has absolute and utterly no speed feats. The best is you have someone iirc saying that he can stop a bullet in mid-air.


Its not like they can really hurt him though.


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 4, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> And yet he was unable to turn an android into human, so what makes you think he would be able to nullify his power.
> 
> 
> Hax > Destructive capacity.
> ...



Seems Manhattan has a limit I forgot about?

Unless there is another explanation as to why he couldn't stop 40% of Russia's nukes if they were launched.

Defend this Samarviti and explain why this is.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Oct 4, 2011)

Uncle Phantom said:


> Seems Manhattan has a limit I forgot about?
> 
> Unless there is another explanation as to why he couldn't stop 40% of Russia's nukes if they were launched.
> 
> Defend this Samarviti and explain why this is.



Been forever since I last read Watchmen do you have the scan where he says that.


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 4, 2011)

Uncle Phantom said:


> Seems Manhattan has a limit I forgot about?
> 
> Unless there is another explanation as to why he couldn't stop 40% of Russia's nukes if they were launched.
> 
> Defend this Samarviti and explain why this is.



The one who said he couldn't stop the misils, was a some guy called profesor milton glass, who had no way to know the limits of Jon powers, and was just speculating.




Emperor Joker said:


> Been forever since I last read Watchmen do you have the scan where he says that.


Here is the Scan.


----------



## I3igAl (Oct 4, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> The one who said he couldn't stop the misils, was a some guy called profesor milton glass, who had no way to know the limits of Jon powers, and was just speculating.



However Jon never stopped them so assuming he could manipulate something at such a large scale is no limit fallacy. It is impossible to proof he could. However I don't see Shen-L?ng warping him away.


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 4, 2011)

I3igAl said:


> However Jon never stopped them so assuming he could manipulate something at such a large scale is no limit fallacy. It is impossible to proof he could. However I don't see Shen-L?ng warping him away.


Because the misils never were launched.
Not that i matter much since DBZ has no resistance against matter manipulation.


----------



## masamune1 (Oct 4, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> And yet he was unable to turn an android into human, so what makes you think he would be able to nullify his power.



It's a power level thing. Which doesn't strictly apply here because Manhatten's powers come from a different source, or are of a different nature.

Basically the you should be thinking about hax the android had to have been, to have been resistant to a power that can create an entire world. Something Manhatten cannot do (he can create life, but thats different).

Essentially he utterly lacks the kind of destructive power the androids did. The androids are all theoretically capable of destroying a planet; he can't.  




> Hax > Destructive capacity.
> He can desintegrate them, or BFR them, and they can't kill him



Hmmm....Whats his best disintegration feat?

I mean, wouldn't that fall under a no-limits fallacy? Assuming that he can disintegrate absolutely anything?

Also Hax> Destructive capacity means you are conceding that Manhatten is technically weaker than them, so I don't see how this would be different from, say, time-freezing or telepathy, in that the ability to defeat someone in DBZ isn't a measure of your power, hence not really a measure of whether the Dragonballs will affect you or not.



> He regenerated from being completly desintegrated, regenerating from being a candy is no different.



No, because then he wasn't actually candy.

If he were _truly_ candy, he wouldn't have those powers anymore.


----------



## I3igAl (Oct 4, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> Because the misils never were launched.
> Not that i matter much since DBZ has no resistance against matter manipulation.



I agree that he can disintegrate DBZ-characters who have no resistance against his matter manipulation. And unless someone pulls out another trick they have know chance. 
IMO DBZ's last weapon is time travel and trying to kill Jon Osterman before he becomes DR. Manhattanwon't work since future ince people always overrate Dr. Manhattan. However DBZ hasn't shown timetravel over the needed amount of time and it also showed many complications(spawning Cell) and in the end just created another timeline, with the Androids still present in Future trunks timepline. So it probably won't work at all.


I just wanted to clarify that missile thing having him take on upper heralds, like Thor and especially Surfer, or when you look at current threads over here even Galactus and in most cases even assuming it is a stomp for Manhattan. I'm just annoyed of people thinking he was the most powerful comic book superhero of all time even if he has no feats to proof such a claim.


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 4, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> It's a power level thing. Which doesn't strictly apply here because Manhatten's powers come from a different source, or are of a different nature.


"A power level thing" is not a very good explanation, Androids didn't have ki, and their power also came from a different source that most of the DBZ characters.



masamune1 said:


> Basically the you should be thinking about hax the android had to have been, to have been resistant to a power that can create an entire world. Something Manhatten cannot do (he can create life, but thats different).


Unless the androids had showed some kind of magical resistance or some trasmutation immunity, which they didn't, it just mean that Sheron powers are quite limited and he can change somone structure.



masamune1 said:


> Essentially he utterly lacks the kind of destructive power the androids did. The androids are all theoretically capable of destroying a planet; he can't.


And Jon  can desintegrate them, bfr them, among other many ways of killing them,but they can't kill Jon.




masamune1 said:


> Hmmm....Whats his best disintegration feat?
> 
> I mean, wouldn't that fall under a no-limits fallacy? Assuming that he can disintegrate absolutely anything?


DBZ character hasn't showed resistance to trasmutation, and are made of matter, so Jon can just control their atoms, or BFR them, external durability dosn't matter much when you can control matter at at your will.



masamune1 said:


> Also Hax> Destructive capacity means you are conceding that Manhatten is technically weaker than them, so I don't see how this would be different from, say, time-freezing or telepathy, in that the ability to defeat someone in DBZ isn't a measure of your power, hence not really a measure of whether the Dragonballs will affect you or not.[


Power level in DBZ are basically Ki, androids didn't have Ki, and yet, Shenron was unable to turn them into humans.




masamune1 said:


> No, because then he wasn't actually candy.
> 
> If he were _truly_ candy, he wouldn't have those powers anymore.


He would as a long as his particles exist, as he showed when he was completly desintegrated and he just came back, to put in in a simple way, he is basically immune to matter manipulation, at least of that level.


----------



## Majinvergil (Oct 4, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> The Dragonballs don't work in Future Trunk's timeline, either because Dende isn't around to get them to work or because he was killed. Thats why Trunks didn't use them.



it was actully because piccolo was killed.


----------



## masamune1 (Oct 4, 2011)

^Well, there you go.



Samavarti said:


> "A power level thing" is not e very good explanetion, Androids didn't have ki, and their power also come from a different source that most of the DBZ characters.



Where was that stated? I don't recall.

Also Android is a bad translation- Gero, 16, 17 and 18 are cyborgs, and Cell is an artifical organic lifeform.



> Unless the andorids had showes some kind of magical resistance or some trasmutation immunity, which they didn't, it just mean that Sheron powers are quite limited and he can change somone structure.



It's because they were stronger than him. It doesn't change the fact that he can restructure a planet.

So you've still got at least one feat that puts him way above Manhatten's level.



> DBZ character hasn't showed resistance to trasmutation, and are made of matter, so Jon can just control their atoms, or BFR them, external durability dosn't matter much when you can control matter at at your will.



Android 18 did.

And yes, it does matter, because its a fallacy to assume that because Jon can control the atoms of a normal human, he can control the atoms of superhuman aliens or magical genies, both of which have vastly superior durability to anything he has used his powers on. Extrernal durability is _dependant_ on matter, not independant of it. 



> Power level in DBZ are basically Ki, androids didn't have Ki, and yet, Shenron was unable to turn them into humans.



Where does it say they don't have Ki again?

I mean I've heard other peole say that before, I'm just wondering where it was said.



> He would as a long as his particles exist, as he showed when he was completly desintegrated and he just came back, to put in in a simple way, he is basically immune to matter manipulation, at least of that level.



Disnitegration is different from being turned into chocolate. If you think about transmutation being breaking up somethings atoms and then changing them, this is like the next step up. So its _not_ that level at all; it's the _next_ level, because someone completely changed him. 

But that wasn't what I was saying.

What I'm saying is, that depends on how absolute the transmutation is, and since this is magical transmutation I'm saying that yes, it might be different, and it may be pretty darn absolute. If he were _truly_ turned into chocolate, then he wouldn't be Doctor Manhatten, and ergo he couldn't turn back.


----------



## Majinvergil (Oct 4, 2011)

Vegeto was turned into candy and still was able to fight.


----------



## masamune1 (Oct 4, 2011)

Majinvergil said:


> Vegeto was turned into candy and still was able to fight.



Yeah, but he had Ki or life energy, and much higher Ki than Buu or Manhatten. His power derives from a semi-mystical source. Doesn't mean that Manhatten can do the same.

And Buu's transmutation is magical, which is one of the issues here.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Oct 4, 2011)

Didn't Doc have nanosecond reactions.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Oct 4, 2011)

DBZ has prep?
It would be pretty easy for them to get shenron to telaport him into the sun.


----------



## masamune1 (Oct 4, 2011)

Charcan said:


> Didn't Doc have nanosecond reactions.



No.

If he did, he wouldn't have been disintegrated by Ozymandias.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Oct 4, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> No.
> 
> If he did, he wouldn't have been disintegrated by Ozymandias.



Didn't he watch subatomic particle movement.

Flash has been tagged by non-speedsters probably more times than Watchmen has pages while being much faster.


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 4, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> ^Well, there you go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dosen't matter much really.





masamune1 said:


> It's because they were stronger than him. It doesn't change the fact that he can restructure a planet.


When he has even done, or even stated to be able to do that?
And if a peak human guy had a planet buster gun, under you logic he would be immune to Shenron, because Androids power cpme from science, not from their ki.





masamune1 said:


> Android 18 did.


No, she didn't, it was stated that Shenron was unable to turn her in human, and yet he was able to remove a bomb from her, so Obyously, it just means that Shenron is weak, and hasn't enough power to remove soone powers, or turn somone into a normal human.



masamune1 said:


> And yes, it does matter, because its a fallacy to assume that because Jon can control the atoms of a normal human, he can control the atoms of superhuman aliens or magical genies, both of which have vastly superior durability to anything he has used his powers on. Extrernal durability is _dependant_ on matter, not independant of it.


Burden of proof is on you, prove that DBZ characters atomic structure is any diferent than the rest of the humans.




masamune1 said:


> Where does it say they don't have Ki again?
> 
> I mean I've heard other peole say that before, I'm just wondering where it was said.


Since the Begin of DBZ, the Ki levels basically become the only thing that mattered, betwen more Ki, more powerful the character is.


masamune1 said:


> Disnitegration is different from being turned into chocolate. If you think about transmutation being breaking up somethings atoms and then changing them, this is like the next step up. So its _not_ that level at all; it's the _next_ level, because someone completely changed him.


Jon can trasmute thing as well, so is still moot point,but you are missing the point, the thing is that a long as his particles exist, he can reform, and since Buu choccolate being hasn't showed to be able to destroy matter, he can just reform.



masamune1 said:


> But that wasn't what I was saying.
> 
> What I'm saying is, that depends on how absolute the transmutation is, and since this is magical transmutation I'm saying that yes, it might be different, and it may be pretty darn absolute. If he were _truly_ turned into chocolate, then he wouldn't be Doctor Manhatten, and ergo he couldn't turn back.


It uses Magic to trasmute the things, but the effect is the same that any other science based trasmutation power, unless you can prove in otherwise, if not, it's just bassless speculation.


----------



## Bender (Oct 4, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> DBZ has prep?
> It would be pretty easy for them to get shenron to telaport him into the sun.



Mahatten was disintegrated by one of Veidt's machine and regenerated. If he could regenerate from that I'm pretty sure that he could do the same from being teleported to the sun.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 4, 2011)

enzymeii said:


> Did I say kill?  Its not like manhattan has a PL anyhow, since he's not Ki based...



and yet Manhattan can erase Kami and Dende from existing with a thought or turn them into mush..the power gap is clear also you have no proof Shenron can effect a being like this


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Oct 4, 2011)

When did Shenron show that much range?


----------



## Emperor Joker (Oct 4, 2011)

Charcan said:


> When did Shenron show that much range?



Didn't Shenron revive every Namek killed by Freiza's forces all the way from Earth? range is not the problem here.


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 4, 2011)

^ Reviving Namekians while being present on Earth

Edit: Ninja'd


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Oct 4, 2011)

Emperor Joker said:


> Didn't Shenron revive every Namek killed by Freiza's forces all the way from Earth? range is not the problem here.



I was thinking this fight already starts in the Supreme Kai planet which IIRC is in another dimension besides. As far as the "port to the Sun" thing.


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 4, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> Burden of proof is on you, prove that DBZ characters atomic structure is any diferent than the rest of the humans.



Aliens, artifical androids and magical genies don't differ in structure than humans?

Frieza and Buu's structures are fundamentally different than a human being's.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Oct 4, 2011)

Charcan said:


> I was thinking this fight already starts in the Supreme Kai planet which IIRC is in another dimension besides. As far as the "port to the Sun" thing.



Didn't see that part of the OP actually...I can't recall any trans-dimensional feat for Shenron with that mentioned.


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 4, 2011)

Well they have a month of prep. It's fairly plausible to just get Kibitoshin and Goku to teleport people there in that month before the fight starts.


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 4, 2011)

Uncle Phantom said:


> Aliens, artifical androids and magical genies don't differ in structure than humans?



My bad, i didn't planted it well enough, Prove that DBZ characters atomic structure is any different from the matter in Watchmen.


----------



## Bender (Oct 4, 2011)

Shenron can't alter a person's genes or bodily structure (save healing). It's part of the reason why Android #18 and Android #17 couldn't be turned into human beings since they were partially human already.


----------



## masamune1 (Oct 4, 2011)

^No, he blatantly stated that he could'nt change them because they were stronger. Thats all.



Samavarti said:


> Dosen't matter much really.



It does; they are part human, so they should have Ki.



> When he has even done, or even stated to be able to do that?
> And if a peak human guy had a planet buster gun, under you logic he would be immune to Shenron, because Androids power cpme from science, not from their ki.



I've already told you, when he recreated Earth, his best feat, which is what we were talking about. He did it at the end of the Buu saga.

(Actually, my bad- it was Porunga, not Shenron. But that just means they need different dragonballs).

And again, when was it stated they don't have Ki?



> No, she didn't, it was stated that Shenron was unable to turn her in human, and yet he was able to remove a bomb from her, so Obyously, it just means that Shenron is weak, and hasn't enough power to remove soone powers, or turn somone into a normal human.



Well, she _technically_ didn't, but it was stated that she would. He's hardly weak if he can recreate a planet.



> Burden of proof is on you, prove that DBZ characters atomic structure is any diferent than the rest of the humans.



The fact that they can survive continent destroying attacks and above. 

Durability is determined by the nature of your atomic structure. The atomic structure of wod is different from the atomic structure of diamond, for instance, which is why diamond is stronger. The mere fact that they are more durable is proof that they are different.



> Since the Begin of DBZ, the Ki levels basically become the only thing that mattered, betwen more Ki, more powerful the character is.





> Jon can trasmute thing as well, so is still moot point,but you are missing the point, the thing is that a long as his particles exist, he can reform, and since Buu choccolate being hasn't showed to be able to destroy matter, he can just reform.
> 
> It uses Magic to trasmute the things, but the effect is the same that any other science based trasmutation power, unless you can prove in otherwise, if not, it's just bassless speculation.



No, _your_ missing the point. I wasn't arguing about _Buu's_ transmutation; I was arguing against your statement that magical transmutationis the same as Jon's. In this case, if Jon were actually turned into chocolate, his consciousness and very soul would be transmutated too, and he wouldn't have his powers, because chocolate doesn't have powers.

Essentially as long as his particles exist; no, he _wouldn't_ be able to reform, not if the transmutation is absolute (which it isn't, since Vegitto recovered, but thats another issue).

It was more of a snarky remark, though frankly you are wrong to think the burden of proof is on me, since you made the original claim that magical transmutation is the same as his.


----------



## Bender (Oct 4, 2011)

@Masamune 1

T.O 

Isn't the reason why D.B. warriors are able to survive continent busting attacks because they build up the strength to resist them?


----------



## MisterShin (Oct 4, 2011)

Emperor Joker said:


> Didn't see that part of the OP actually...I can't recall any trans-dimensional feat for Shenron with that mentioned.


Shenron reviving Vegeta in Buu Saga (Vegeta was on Supreme Kai Planet).
Shenron recovering Goku's Ki in Buu Saga (Goku was on Supreme Kai Planet)

Range is not a problem for Shenron. 

Shenron can also move the point of entry, when reviving people. (e.g. revived Krillin on Earth, when he died on Namek)


----------



## masamune1 (Oct 4, 2011)

Black Titan said:


> @Masamune 1
> 
> T.O
> 
> Isn't the reason why D.B. warriors are able to survive continent busting attacks because they build up the strength to resist them?



Well, to clarify, its not so much that their atomic structure is _different_ from humans (or humanoids), and more like its being held together by something- in this case, Ki, and truckloads of it. They train to build up Ki, and on a Physics level that's the effect. 

Essentially its not an issue of Manhatten being able to disintegrate matter or not; its about the way matter is held together and the fact that some things are just harder to take apart than others.

*EDIT: *Well, thats my take on it anyway.


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 4, 2011)

masamune1 said:


> It does; they are part human, so they should have Ki.


But thier power come from their Robotic parts.




masamune1 said:


> I've already told you, when he recreated Earth, his best feat, which is what we were talking about. He did it at the end of the Buu saga.


Revivng people in the earth =/= Recreating Earth




masamune1 said:


> And again, when was it stated they don't have Ki?


They don't have Ki signature, that's why they can gou undetected by ki signatures, and they powers come from a mechanic device that supplies them with energy.





masamune1 said:


> Well, she _technically_ didn't, but it was stated that she would. He's hardly weak if he can recreate a planet.


She was stated that she was immune to trasmutation, were exactly?




masamune1 said:


> The fact that they can survive continent destroying attacks and above.


So can Krillin, and he is a human, with a human atomic structure.



masamune1 said:


> Durability is determined by the nature of your atomic structure. The atomic structure of wod is different from the atomic structure of diamond, for instance, which is why diamond is stronger. The mere fact that they are more durable is proof that they are different.


Is proof that they are more durable, but as a long as their atomic structure is composed by the same elements, and as a long as they have atoms, they can be trasmuted.







masamune1 said:


> No, _your_ missing the point. I wasn't arguing about _Buu's_ transmutation; I was arguing against your statement that magical transmutationis the same as Jon's. In this case, if Jon were actually turned into chocolate, his consciousness and very soul would be transmutated too, and he wouldn't have his powers, because chocolate doesn't have powers.


The same could be said about being desintegrated, but it didn't work very well against him.
Unless you are saying that being turned into a chocolate somhow han mindrape, and soulfuck somone, in which case you will have to bring proves to back you cliams.



masamune1 said:


> Essentially as long as his particles exist; no, he _wouldn't_ be able to reform, not if the transmutation is absolute (which it isn't, since Vegitto recovered, but thats another issue)..


Is trasmutation, unless you can prove it otherwise, and "lol, is a maigc beam", is not really an argument


masamune1 said:


> It was more of a snarky remark, though frankly you are wrong to think the burden of proof is on me, since you made the original claim that magical transmutation is the same as his.


You claim that Majin Buu trasmutation works diferent from other kinds of trasmutations, burden of proof is on you, not in me.


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 4, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> But thier power come from their Robotic parts.
> 
> 
> 
> Revivng people in the earth =/= Recreating Earth



Porunga did recreate the Earth.

Just look at this


----------



## MisterShin (Oct 4, 2011)

Androids do NOT have Ki.

Reason: It is because their bodies are modified. They run on an eternal energy generator, meaning they will never tire or run out of energy.


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 4, 2011)

Uncle Phantom said:


> Porunga did recreate the Earth.
> 
> Just look at this



My bad, thogu i see some planet sized silhouette, isn't that supossed to be the earth, it was destroyed in the sense of being blown into pieces, o in the sense of being severely damaged, making immposible to live in it?


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 4, 2011)

The scan says that it was restored to the way it was before Buu destroyed it. It wasn't impossible to live in.

The only reason there weren't any humans was because Super Buu killed them all with some sort of genocide blast.


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 4, 2011)

Didn't think about it before, but if Porunga posses enough power to create a planet, shouldn't he be able to make DBZ fighters immune to transmutation should they wish for it?

They do have knowledge on him and Porunga can already create matter out of nothing so it should be within his realm of power to do so.


----------



## Nevermind (Oct 4, 2011)

Uncle Phantom said:


> Didn't think about it before, but if Porunga posses enough power to create a planet, shouldn't he be able to make DBZ fighters immune to transmutation should they wish for it?
> 
> They do have knowledge on him and Porunga can already create matter out of nothing so it should be within his realm of power to do so.



How exactly does it follow that since Porunga can create matter out of nothing he can somehow make the figters immune to transmutation?


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 4, 2011)

Uncle Phantom said:


> Didn't think about it before, but if Porunga posses enough power to create a planet, shouldn't he be able to make DBZ fighters immune to transmutation should they wish for it?
> 
> They do have knowledge on him and Porunga can already create matter out of nothing so it should be within his realm of power to do so.



Not really, even if Buu destroyed the earth, the matter of the earth still exisited, what shenron did was restore that matter to it's original form, and asking immunity against matter manipulation would like asking immunity against ki blasts, and there is no precedent for such thing, specially considering the fact that he was unable to turn android 18 into human, that makes me think that Shenron is still bonded to laws of physics.


----------



## Majinvergil (Oct 4, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> Revivng people in the earth =/= Recreating Earth



He did both actully.

buu killed everyone on the planet , of course except for those who left to another planet and destroyed the planet.

porunga 1st recreated the planet the way it was and then revived everyone that was killed.


----------



## Majinvergil (Oct 4, 2011)

Uncle Phantom said:


> Didn't think about it before, but if Porunga posses enough power to create a planet, shouldn't he be able to make DBZ fighters immune to transmutation should they wish for it?
> 
> They do have knowledge on him and Porunga can already create matter out of nothing so it should be within his realm of power to do so.


Well if they can wish for immortality,don't see why not.


----------



## MisterShin (Oct 4, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> Not really, even if Buu destroyed the earth, the matter of the earth still exisited, what shenron did was restore that matter to it's original form, and asking immunity against matter manipulation would like asking immunity against ki blasts, and there is no precedent for such thing, specially considering the fact that he was unable to turn android 18 into human, that makes me think that Shenron is still bonded to laws of physics.


Android 18 cant turn into an human, BECAUSE she is already a human. 
Android 18 is a modified human.

Shenron can create things from thin air or restore.
Its was asked to restore Earth, hence it is restored. Meaning that it used the matter like you said above.
Shenron created panties from thin air. lol


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 4, 2011)

MisterShin said:


> Android 18 cant turn into an human, BECAUSE she is already a human.
> Android 18 is a modified human.


She is a cyborg, so she is not 100% human, thats why they asked Shenron to restore her humanity, but he was unable to do so.



MisterShin said:


> Shenron can create things from thin air or restore.
> Its was asked to restore Earth, hence it is restored. Meaning that it used the matter like you said above.
> Shenron created panties from thin air. lol



If the Shenron can restore the earth, i'm pretty sure getting the material from a pantie from the nature shouldn't be a very hard task.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Oct 5, 2011)

Dr. M has  no magic resistance feats. babidi controls the evil in his heart turning him into Majin Dr. Man.


----------



## Physics Man (Oct 5, 2011)

Very bad rape thread the Dr. wins this with utter ease.


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 5, 2011)

Physics Man said:


> Very bad rape thread the Dr. wins this with utter ease.



It's still a bunch of Argument of Belief though.

The answer is "he should" but he lacks a gross amount of feats. 

It also helps that  he has never shown a limit to his abilities. We have what he can potentially do and that's about it.

If you read the thread, you will notice some discrepancies that make people question what the Dr. is really capable of.


----------



## Physics Man (Oct 5, 2011)

Everything is a argument of belief about fictional characters because they are fictional. But in a fight going by feats and power scaling Dr. wins easily.


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 5, 2011)

Physics Man said:


> Everything is a argument of belief about fictional characters because they are fictional. But in a fight going by feats and power scaling Dr. wins easily.



Not necessarily. One can come up with evidence and feats to support their claim as to why one character should beat the other. 


Dr.M lacks feats of him effecting beings anywhere near the guys he's fighting here and alot of the structures that he is supposed to transmute in this match don't even exist in his verse. He also lacks feats of him affecting magical beings, not to say that he couldn't but one could still argue that he probably can't. Not to mention whether or not Shenron can do some things to help DBZ here is still being debated .

There is nothing to powerscale off of. He is the top dog in his verse.

It's kind of like saying a matter manipulator is a matter manipulator and degrees of matter manipulating don't exist when infact they do. A lot of answers here don't have feats to back them up and are purely theoretical. 

That's why I said alot of this is going off what he is potentially supposed to be able to do.


----------



## Tengu (Oct 5, 2011)

Can Doctor Manhatan destroy a planet?, i though he was only city buster.
Anyway, Buu could absorbs all the fighters on his team, Buu is almost immortal anyway, he just needs an atom to regenerate, and if he absorbs everybody on his team, he would be unstoppable.


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 5, 2011)

Uncle Phantom said:


> Dr.M lacks feats of him effecting beings anywhere near the guys he's fighting here and alot of *the structures that he is supposed to transmute in this match don't even exist in his verse*


Based on what, you still hasn't proved that DBZ characters aren't made from some weird and unknown that dosen't exist, not that it matter much, because he can still BFR them.


Uncle Phantom said:


> He also lacks feats of him affecting magical beings, not to say that he couldn't but one could still argue that he probably can't.


The Only magical beings in DBZ are Shenron, the souls of the dead, and arguably the onis.




Uncle Phantom said:


> It's kind of like saying a matter manipulator is a matter manipulator and degrees of matter manipulating don't exist when infact they do. A lot of answers here don't have feats to back them up and are purely theoretical.


He can control matter at atomic level, and there are no others matter manipulators in DBZ, or anyone that has shown resistance to it, and until proven the opposite, all DBZ characters have atoms.




Tengu said:


> Can Doctor Manhatan destroy a planet?, i though he was only city buster.


Ever heard the term "Hax"


Tengu said:


> Anyway, Buu could absorbs all the fighters on his team


Unless he suddnly obtains the ability to completly destroy matter is not going to be of much use.


Tengu said:


> Buu is almost immortal anyway, *he just needs an atom to regenerate*, and if he absorbs everybody on his team, he would be unstoppable.


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 5, 2011)

^ Buu was made from magic, which makes him by definition, a being of magic. 

There's no evidence to suggest that Dr.M can transmute a being who is in complete control of his anatomy. He can even fight inside himself. I think there's a scan that also says this, I just have to find it.

Its just that DBZ characters atoms are packed together much tighter than any being in Dr.Manhattans verse. Its why they take continent busters without batting an eye. To say Dr.M can manipulate objects that are hard enough to tank that type of an explosion with ease is questionable. Disassembling a hard structure is much more difficult than to disassemble an softer one and DBZ characters are god like compared to anybody Dr.M has ever transmuted.

How can you say that Goku and a peak human have similar structure when one's body is much superior to the others?

Of not, then where does it stop? Could he disassemble Superman as well? Give me a limit to his transmutation abilities.

Not saying he doesnt win here but I'm just looking for more of a concrete answer.

Also how does BFR work when characters here can just teleport back to the battlefield?  Meta Cooler, Goku,Kid Buu, etc.


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 5, 2011)

Uncle Phantom said:


> ^ Buu was made from magic, which makes him by definition, a being of magic.


But is not a pure magic being.



Uncle Phantom said:


> There's no evidence to suggest that Dr.M can transmute a being who is in complete control of his anatomy. He can even fight inside himself. I think there's a scan that also says this, I just have to find it.


That really shouldn't care much, one time is controling you anatomy, and another controling your atoms.



Uncle Phantom said:


> Its just that DBZ characters atoms are packed together much tighter than any being in Dr.Manhattans verse. Its why they take continent busters without batting an eye. To say Dr.M can manipulate objects that are hard enough to tank that type of an explosion with ease is questionable. Disassembling a hard structure is much more difficult than to disassemble an softer one and DBZ characters are god like compared to anybody Dr.M has ever transmuted.


If that were true they would be a lot heavier than normal humans, and Krillin is a human and yet has an incredibly high durability, and unless he somehow learned how to change his atomic structure, his atomic structure shouldn't be much diferent from any other human.



Uncle Phantom said:


> How can you say that Goku and a peak human have similar structure when one's body is much superior to the others?


A profesional wrestler is physically superior to some random fat guy, but that dosen't mean their atomic structure is particularly different.



Uncle Phantom said:


> Of not, then where does it stop? Could he disassemble Superman as well? Give me a limit to his transmutation abilities.


I don't know much about Superman, but i'm pretty sure he has shown feats against trasmutation.




Uncle Phantom said:


> Also how does BFR work when characters here can just teleport back to the battlefield?  Meta Cooler, Goku,Kid Buu, etc.


To teleport the characters need a Ki Sign, and for detecting somone ki that person need to be in their ki sensing range, and since their Ki range hasn't showed to be able to cover multi planetary distances, BFR should work.
Also there are not that much character that can survive in the space.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 5, 2011)

they can't really harm the good doctor and he can kind of just take his time doing what ever the hell he pleases- the only character you could possibly make a case for resisting him is vigito and even then he had no true transmutation resistance and nothing to suggest he'd resist temporal based powers

seriously why is this thread a shitstorm the results are obvious


----------



## Bender (Oct 5, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> seriously why is this thread a shitstorm the results are obvious



Uncle Phantom thinks that Dr. M doesn't have enough showings to be able to take down the Z-verse.


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 5, 2011)

Where did I say that Bender?

Quote me saying Dr.M doesn't win here.


----------



## Bender (Oct 5, 2011)

Uncle Phantom said:


> Where did I say that Bender?



Oh, my bad. 

I thought from you saying this:



> There's no evidence to suggest that Dr.M can transmute a being who is in complete control of his anatomy.



That you thought Dr. M couldn't win.


----------



## MisterShin (Oct 5, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> If that were true they would be a lot heavier than normal humans, and Krillin is a human and yet has an incredibly high durability, and unless he somehow learned how to change his atomic structure, his atomic structure shouldn't be much diferent from any other human.
> 
> A profesional wrestler is physically superior to some random fat guy, but that dosen't mean their atomic structure is particularly different.
> 
> ...


Upa's Father tanks bullets, although he is a regular human.
these rocks 

Other Human characters such as Yamcha have endured 10x Gravity upon their body.
Insane Training has changed their bodies forever. 


Buu sensed Gohan, who was in Kaioshin realm from Earth.
Z-Fighters Sensed Freiza spaceship approaching Earth from Outer Space.
Goku sensed King Kai from Earth 
etc etc (Long story made short, they can sense beyond multi planetary) 

Buu & Kaioshins, Janemba dont need Ki sensing for teleporting.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 5, 2011)

enzymeii said:


> Can Shenron override Manhattan's powers?  That's the question here...



Considering he couldn't turn 18 human and it was specifically said that it was because she was more powerful than him....



VastoLorDae said:


> They all wish they were immortal, or their strongest was immortal. Not Even the good doctor can do anything about it.



He turns them into immortal worms and teleports them to space where they float for all eternity.



Uncle Phantom said:


> Wouldn't Vegeto be resistant to it as well? Fighting as a jawbreaker and all.



Not being disintegrated on a subatomic level or being turned into snow or gas



Admiral Shujin said:


> Prep and knowledge? Guldo stop time, and Bu turn's Manhattan into chocolate.



Because

- Buu can move during timestop
- Dr. M couldn't predict that
- Buu can transmute enery
- Dr. M can't control his own body structure 



Fang said:


> The problem is Dr. Manhattan has absolute and utterly no speed feats. The best is you have someone iirc saying that he can stop a bullet in mid-air.



He was able to view electrons orbiting an atomic nucleus, that requires insane reaction times



Matta Clatta said:


> DBZ has prep?
> It would be pretty easy for them to get shenron to telaport him into the sun.



Which wouldn't hurt him at all



Tengu said:


> Can Doctor Manhatan destroy a planet?, i though he was only city buster.



His limit is unknown



> Anyway, Buu could absorbs all the fighters on his team, Buu is almost immortal anyway, he just needs an atom to regenerate



Wrong. The least he showed to be able to regenerate from was dust/mist. Those are particles large enough to be seen by the unaided human eye



> and if he absorbs everybody on his team, he would be unstoppable.



More like he would just make it easier for the doctor since he only has one target to destroy instead of many


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 5, 2011)

Black Titan said:


> That you thought Dr. M couldn't win.



I don't think it is since no one in the DBZ universe has the time of anatomical control that'd be needed to overcome John's transmutation


----------



## Bender (Oct 5, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I don't think it is since no one in the DBZ universe has the time of anatomical control that'd be needed to overcome John's transmutation



Ha! I was right regarding that. Thought so. DBZverse doesn't seem to have any way out of sight sci-fi elements (aside from spaceship, space travel, tracking devices, androids).


----------



## Heavenly King (Oct 5, 2011)

they died that's it no more of this lol


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 5, 2011)

Black Titan said:


> Ha! I was right regarding that. Thought so. DBZverse doesn't seem to have any way out of sight sci-fi elements (aside from spaceship, space travel, tracking devices, androids).



well, to be fair buu comes very close but the kind of control needed to reverse what Manhattan needs you'd need to have complete control over your molecular structure like a Herald or Thanos or be extremely skilled at transmutation and defense like Magneto Strange or any ranked GL basically

Buu's nowhere near that kind of control but his is pretty advanced


----------



## Heavenly King (Oct 5, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> well, to be fair buu comes very close but the kind of control needed to reverse what Manhattan needs you'd need to have complete control over your molecular structure like a Herald or Thanos or be extremely skilled at transmutation and defense like Magneto Strange or any ranked GL basically
> 
> Buu's nowhere near that kind of control but his is pretty advanced




you're right about that one man.


----------



## Tengu (Oct 6, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> Ever heard the term "Hax"
> 
> Unless he suddnly obtains the ability to completly destroy matter is not going to be of much use.



Buu survived explosions that can disintegrate entire zones, and explosions that can easily destroy planets, you are underrating Buu here.
There is no proof Doctor Manhatan could kill him.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

Tengu said:


> Buu survived explosions that can disintegrate entire zones, and explosions that can easily destroy planets, you are underrating Buu here.
> There is no proof Doctor Manhatan could kill him.



yes there is the fact that Buu can't recover from what John can do..and what the hell do you mean by Zone?


----------



## Tengu (Oct 6, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> yes there is the fact that Buu can't recover from what John can do..and what the hell do you mean by Zone?



John may be able to disintegrate lesser beings, but someone as Buu who can survive blats that can destroy planets, i don't think so.
And i was referring to the area Vegeta destroyed when he self-detonated, and left that big crater.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 6, 2011)

Tengu said:


> John may be able to disintegrate lesser beings, but someone as Buu who can survive blats that can destroy planets, i don't think so.



John if worse comes to worse does not need to transmutate even though Buu's probably the only one who can resist that however limited

he can just toss him into a star or blackhole 



Tengu said:


> And i was referring to the area Vegeta destroyed when he self-detonated, and left that big crater.



ah thanks for clearing that up I thought you meant dimension or something and was about to..go all anti dbztard..foot in mouth avoided..many thanks


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 7, 2011)

He's made of matter, and Dr. M controls matter on the subatomic level. Durability against conventional force is irrelevant.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Oct 7, 2011)

if DB has preptime, what stops Babidi from brining forth the evil in Dr. M heart???


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 7, 2011)

He's completely beyond the conceptions of good and evil.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Oct 7, 2011)

And that wouldn't even work on Vegeta


----------



## enzymeii (Oct 7, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> He's made of matter, and Dr. M controls matter on the subatomic level. Durability against conventional force is irrelevant.



Hm... but can we say for sure what level of matter Buu regenerates on?  Gotenks was blasting his remains with concentrated Kii blasts, and he still regenerated.  Surely just focused attacks from such a high-tier character would be destroying the very atoms themselves.


----------



## Samavarti (Oct 7, 2011)

enzymeii said:


> Hm... but can we say for sure what level of matter Buu regenerates on?  Gotenks was blasting his remains with concentrated Kii blasts, and he still regenerated.  Surely just focused attacks from such a high-tier character would be destroying the very atoms themselves.



Dr. Manhattan sends him to the sun, problem solved.

Also no matter how powerfull the attack is matter can not be destroyed uless you are a reality warper or something like that, ehich is not the case of DBZ characters.


----------



## enzymeii (Oct 7, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> Dr. Manhattan sends him to the sun, problem solved.



I was only arguing the point that he couldn't regen from Manhattan's hand-wave.  Not that Buu would win.



> Also no matter how powerfull the attack is matter can not be destroyed uless you are a reality warper or something like that, ehich is not the case of DBZ characters.



Dr. Manhattan doesn't actually do that either though... When I say destroy the atoms I mean break them down into their constituent parts.  Nothing is ever created or destroyed, comes or goes, exists as many or one, etc...


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Oct 7, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> Also no matter how powerfull the attack is matter can not be destroyed uless you are a reality warper or something like that, ehich is not the case of DBZ characters.


This is fiction, so not necessarily


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 7, 2011)

enzymeii said:


> Hm... but can we say for sure what level of matter Buu regenerates on?  Gotenks was blasting his remains with concentrated Kii blasts, and he still regenerated.  Surely just focused attacks from such a high-tier character would be destroying the very atoms themselves.





The most he was ever shown to regenerate from was mist (in the ROSAT) and dust (after blowing up the Earth). Both of which are composed of particles large enough to be seen by the naked eye.

No DBZ character can destroy atoms.


----------



## Cocoa (Oct 7, 2011)

Someone with matter manipulation on the subatomic level? He can easily kill Buu. 
Wtf are some of you smoking?


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 7, 2011)

Cocoa said:


> Someone with matter manipulation on the subatomic level? He can easily kill Buu.
> Wtf are some of you smoking?



They're smoking Goku's cock


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 7, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> They're smoking Goku's cock



Do you remember the first time you ever took on DBZ wank ever in a vs debate? I think I do it was a Justice League vs SS3 Goku thread and Raigen was there in his Raikai incarnation and I remember some wankers too I think it was before phenom showed up right when I stopped defending dbz because I realized most of the arguments were crap. The thread was probably about as long as this one..and I remember when it was over going "holy shit that was crazy!' 

and what ever I think two years later there was another huge ass thread I think it started with Brolli vs Odin or something and I remember thinking to myself "I can't believe people still buy into this shit this crap cannot continue"

its been almost four years since I've said that and it never ends..I have no fucking clue how people can still buy into this I mean it's bewildering some times



Endless Mike said:


> He's completely beyond the conceptions of good and evil.



Really? I never got the impression I got that he was a good man who got way in over his head and emotionally overwhelmed by his omnipresence/prescience and just sort of gave up

I mean what ever one way or the other I doubt the wizard can mess with him



Cthulhu-versailles said:


> if DB has preptime, what stops Babidi from brining forth the evil in Dr. M heart???



Ehh John didn't really have a dark side to him as a human he was a studious and decent guy if a bit shy..and really it came off like all he wanted to do was fix watches before he got his powers and was pushed into science by his old man

it's not really a recipe for the Majin seal I'd think assuming he could even effect him



Cocoa said:


> Someone with matter manipulation on the subatomic level? He can easily kill Buu.
> Wtf are some of you smoking?



delusion mi amigo nothing more potent then willfully ignoring the validity of the arguments of the other side


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 7, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Do you remember the first time you ever took on DBZ wank ever in a vs debate?



Actually no I don't but I think it might have been at CBR.



> its been almost four years since I've said that and it never ends..I have no fucking clue how people can still buy into this I mean it's bewildering some times



Fanboyism is a powerful thing



> Really? I never got the impression I got that he was a good man who got way in over his head and emotionally overwhelmed by his omnipresence/prescience and just sort of gave up



His mind had expanded beyond human concepts of good and evil, he didn't care if there was a nuclear war because humans were like ants to him, he operated by logic and not emotion.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 7, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Actually no I don't but I think it might have been at CBR.



you joined there? It's hard imagining you as a rumbler 



Endless Mike said:


> ]
> Fanboyism is a powerful thing



True enough although I hope it's not SW vs ST level to still be dealing with people like phenom or Moses or something a decade from now..is hard to fathom




Endless Mike said:


> His mind had expanded beyond human concepts of good and evil, he didn't care if there was a nuclear war because humans were like ants to him, he operated by logic and not emotion.



ah, I thought he was just really detached


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 7, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> you joined there? It's hard imagining you as a rumbler



That was like back in 2004, I was banned and I don't even remember the name I used 



> True enough although I hope it's not SW vs ST level to still be dealing with people like phenom or Moses or something a decade from now..is hard to fathom



I can bet Sentry will still be making fake accounts under our names well into the 2020s


----------



## Uncle Phantom (Oct 7, 2011)

I think as the movie continued he became more and more indifferent to humanity as a whole. He still had some sort of foundation. Otherwise, he wouldn't have helped the protagonists in the story.


----------



## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Oct 7, 2011)

Better hope there will be no computers in Sentry's retirement home.


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 7, 2011)

Uncle Phantom said:


> I think as the movie continued he became more and more indifferent to humanity as a whole. He still had some sort of foundation. Otherwise, he wouldn't have helped the protagonists in the story.





Uncle Phantom said:


> I think as the movie continued





Uncle Phantom said:


> *the movie*





Uncle Phantom said:


> *movie*


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Oct 7, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> That was like back in 2004, I was banned and I don't even remember the name I used



Think Tanith was the boss there then 



Endless Mike said:


> I can bet Sentry will still be making fake accounts under our names well into the 2020s



that's a scary though the worse part is aside from the noobs who parrot another persons old argument with out really having the first clue how to properly defend it..or themselves the original trolls..seem to cling to it until it's lost all meaning and become an instinctual knee jerk

it's just blind adherence to biased for it's own sake



Charcan said:


> Better hope there will be no computers in Sentry's retirement home.



I'd laugh if I didn't believe it was so accurate


----------



## AceDick (Oct 8, 2011)

Darkstar and Sentry should be friends. Sentry hates EU afterall


----------

