# EMS Hebi Sasuke vs Minato



## Luftwaffles (Feb 17, 2013)

Location: Endless grassy field
Distance: 70 meters
Knowledge: Manga?
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: Orochimaru can't emerge from Sasuke's body under any circumstances, Manda, Bunta

This is Sasuke with Hebi powers and EMS.

EDIT: Minato can't leave the battlefield to another location ie: Konoha, Mt. Myozabaku etc..


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 17, 2013)

What the hell is with all of the Minato threads your making, Kid? 

Anyways, I can see this going both ways. Minato can dodge Amaterasu with Hiraishin, and his speed will make it difficult although not impossible for Sasuke to successfully trap him in a genjutsu. He can counter Susanoo by throwing a kunai at it, then creating an S/T Barrier inside of the construct using the warping radius of the kunai. Then he can shove a rasengan through it to kill Sasuke. 

But Sasuke can make life difficult for Minato using Enton and his ability to quickly spread the flames of Amaterasu. Susanoo will be difficult to overcome, as the maneuver I described in the above paragraph won't be easy to pull off.

One possible way for Minato to win is to hide a tag somewhere on the battlefield, teleport to Konoha, summon Ma and Pa (who you haven't restricted), and then let them prep Frog Song before returning to the battlefield to buy sometime before they're finished. Or he can just wait with them there, whichever is safer or easier. Minato has not exactly done anything like this in the manga, so I'm not saying that he can beat Sasuke 10/10 with this strategy. I'm just putting what I think is a good idea out there.

Then there's Oral Rebirth to consider. Sasuke will only be able to regenerate a few times with it due to the chakra cost, but considering how difficult it will for Minato to get a kill Oral Rebirth will drastically reduce Minato's chances of winning. And Minato can't tag Sasuke's body on the first kill either, as Oral Rebirth creates a new body for him. 

In the end though, I still think this is pretty close, only because Sasuke will be hard pressed to hit Minato, and Hiraishin is just too unpredictable and versatile. Plus, there's always Frog Song to bank on. Whoever wins, its going to be with extreme difficulty.


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## Luftwaffles (Feb 17, 2013)

Teleporting to another location is an automatic loss TDA.

Tomorrow I'm making Jiraiya threads 

Also, can't Sasuke block Minato's kunai the way he did vs Itachi?


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 17, 2013)

☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> Teleporting to another location is an automatic loss TDA.
> 
> Tomorrow I'm making Jiraiya threads
> 
> Also, can't Sasuke block Minato's kunai the way he did vs Itachi?


Is that just what you think, or are you putting that as a restriction?

If its the former, then I will happily argue with you on this point. If you're just going to restrict it because you're OP, I will grudgingly accept it but know in my heart that Minato is being unfairly limited.


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## Luftwaffles (Feb 17, 2013)

It's a general rule in my understanding. Leaving the boundaries of the OP's location is an auto-loss.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 17, 2013)

☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> It's a general rule in my understanding. Leaving the boundaries of the OP's location is an auto-loss.


Okay then. I will argue with you on this point. 

Could you point me to where that rule is stated? From my understanding, a BFR is only considered a BFR if the one leaving is incapable of returning in a timely matter. Or else Obito would be disqualified whenever he goes full intangible, since he's technically in another dimension. Same with Kakashi, who would be disqualified if Obito warped him, despite the fact that he can return even after being warped by Obito.


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> It's a general rule in my understanding. Leaving the boundaries of the OP's location is an auto-loss.



Leaving the dimension would count, and thus Kakashi & Obito could not leave with Kamui.


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## Luftwaffles (Feb 17, 2013)

But they are still in the same "space".

It's an un-written rule, it's like a general common sense thing..

Otherwise, there would be no need in setting a location if one can just leave the OP's boundaries.


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> But they are still in the same "space".
> 
> Otherwise, there would be no need in setting a location if one can just leave the OP's boundaries.



No they are not. Being in a different dimension is definitely out of any set location.


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## Luftwaffles (Feb 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Leaving the dimension would count, and thus Kakashi & Obito could not leave with Kamui.




Aaaaand? This has to do with this thread because...

Leaving to a dimension is not the same as leaving to another battlefield all together... and then coming back. They are part of the users power/dojutsu.

You can't compare that to leaving match boundaries. When Obi/Kak warp they stay in the same space.

Stay on topic Rocky.


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## Dr. White (Feb 17, 2013)

Sauce should take this one thanks to his stamina/endurance boost via EMS. With EMS not only does he have controlled Enton(which pose some problems even for Minato) but he was Ama Shuriken now as well. Sasuke's EMS also improved his Tsukuyomi to the point where like Itachi he to could hypotize people, meaning that is a GG for Minato. Susano is wha cements this IMO as Minato can't touch Sasuke and with Sasuke's ability to become coated in Enton Susano Minato will have a hard time trying to warp it. Eventually I either See Minato not being able to keep up and being tagged with a hit he can't tank or they fight forever until Sasuke pulls out Kirin from inside Susano. 

EMs Sauce -Hgh- Extreme Difficulty 7/10


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 17, 2013)

☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> Aaaaand? This has to do with this thread because...
> 
> Leaving to a dimension is not the same as leaving to another battlefield all together... and then coming back



How is it not the same. Either way you're leaving the battlefield and returning shortly with you're own power. Being in another dimension is arguably worse, since you're not even on the same planet. 



☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> They are part of the users power/dojutsu.



And Hiraishin is part of Minato's power, while his tags in Konoha are standard equipment. 



☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> You can't compare that to leaving match boundaries. When Obi/Kak warp they stay in the same space.



The very definition of being in another dimension means you're not in the same space.


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## Thunder (Feb 17, 2013)

From what I understand, it's generally against the rules to leave the  location altogether via BFR (e.g. having a toad reverse summon Jiraiya  to Mount Myōboku).

Obito's phasing is different, because he's  technically still "there" when he goes invulnerable. It only becomes a  problem if Obito actually tries to warp to another physical location.

But it's ultimately up to the OP to decide what constitutes BFR.


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> Aaaaand? This has to do with this thread because...
> 
> Leaving to a dimension is not the same as leaving to another battlefield all together... and then coming back. They are part of the users power/dojutsu.
> 
> ...



Because you contradict yourself so severely that it comes off as clear, opinionated bias.

Watch this:



> Leaving to a Battlefield is not the same as leaving to another dimension all together... and then coming back. They are part of the users power/S/T Jutsu



It's laughably bad.

They aren't in the same space, that doesn't even make any sense. Being in the box dimension is much further away than Konoha. It's not on the same planet. It's not even on the same plane of space & time.

I'm perfectly on Topic, discussing an ability of Minato. Don't run from what you started.



Thunder said:


> From what I understand, it's generally against the rules to leave the  location altogether via BFR (e.g. having a toad reverse summon Jiraiya  to Mount Myōboku).





			
				Outskirts Battledome said:
			
		

> Examples of BFR:
> 
> - Throwing someone into space (if they have no way to return by themselves)
> - Trapping someone in another dimension
> ...



It's perfectly fine to leave a location, as long as they can return.


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## Luftwaffles (Feb 17, 2013)

^ Standard equipment?
My TDA, you've fallen 

Leaving match boundaries means auto-loss, stop trying to justify Minato.
If Minato leaves to Konoha.. he loses automatically.


Volume 41's cover 

Space has 3 dimensions which all coexist  so, Kamui and FTG are only applicable IF they are in a same space aka match boundaries.


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## Thunder (Feb 17, 2013)

So the rule is based more around time limit and the ability to return. Makes sense considering Minato disappears all the time in matches with Hiraishin, but only for a brief time (and he's able to get back). Good to know.


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> Leaving match boundaries means auto-loss, stop trying to justify Minato.
> If Minato leaves to Konoha.. he loses automatically.



By the definition of _BFR_ (the one that we use), Minato can leave as long as he has a viable way to return within a reasonable amount of time.

You're not the one who determines the clauses the Naruto Battledome follows. You could of course make it a condition of the match, but then that's all it is, a condition.


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## Dr. White (Feb 17, 2013)

OP claims that Minato can't teleport outside the boundaries, I don't see the problem here. In his fight vs Obito he teleported to a distant field somewhere close to the previous location, he didn't go back home, or the kage's office. IC Minato is not being a little pussy and teleporting to his house in the threat of danger. We should move on and get to real discussion since this debate takes up 3/4 of the thread


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 17, 2013)

☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> ^ Standard equipment?
> My TDA, you've fallen



What do you mean? 

Minato always has tags placed in Konoha and around the world. Its like Sasori's puppets or kunai. 



☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> Leaving match boundaries means auto-loss, stop trying to justify Minato.
> If Minato leaves to Konoha.. he loses automatically



Proof? An unwritten rule doesn't mean one is obligated to follow it. Its unwritten. I have an actual written rule supporting my stance.



☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> _BFR_
> 
> Space has 3 dimensions which all coexist  so, Kamui and FTG are only applicable IF they are in a same space aka match boundaries.



Pocket Dimensions are different from those kinds of dimension. 

The dimensions being referred to in that article are the dimension of length, width, and depth, not fictional pockets of space dislocated from the main universe.


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot this is not the OBD.
> Minato auto-loses if he touches Konoha... any other place in the match location I would've been fine with.
> 
> And I never said I was Rocky, so you can stop insinuating and trying to come off as better. I just follow common sense.... although now I see why the Minato fandom is so disliked dear
> ...



I'm am most certainly _not_ disliked. 

You may dislike me, but I really don't care. The Naruto Battledome & Outskirts Battledome share the same concept of BFR. "Ask a Mod"

-snip-


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## Luftwaffles (Feb 17, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> What do you mean?
> 
> Minato always has tags placed in Konoha and around the world. Its like Sasori's puppets or kunai.
> 
> ...


Was the term pocket dimension made here in the NF? Or is it legitimaley called a pocket dimension in the manga?

And no. Kamui is connected to the dimension via Dojutsu powers.
FTG is connected to Konoha...as a safe house??
Minato is already in another dimension while warping, and you're granting him being able to MOVE ENTIRELY to another location because of this


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 17, 2013)

Well, since the OP is (unfairly) restricting Minato's mobility, I guess there's no use arguing about it anymore. 



☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> .... although now I see why the Minato fandom is so disliked dear





Rocky said:


> I'm am most certainly _not_ disliked.





You know, HBK, there's a reason why Rocky was nominated for member of the month. 

And no...member of the month doesn't mean the most disliked member.


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## Luftwaffles (Feb 17, 2013)

@Rocky

I said, and I repeat... Leaving the match boundaries is an auto-loss. Minato touches Konoha, he loses the match. Are you insinuating an IC Minato would.... hide from EMS Sauce?
Stop nitpicking words


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> @Rocky
> 
> I said, and I repeat... Leaving the match boundaries is an auto-loss. Minato touches Konoha, he loses the match. Are you insinuating an IC Minato would.... hide from EMS Sauce?
> Stop nitpicking words



Well since it's a match condition now, there's really no point in debating it, is there?


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## Luftwaffles (Feb 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Well since it's a match condition now, there's really no point in debating it, is there?


There never was Rocky.... there never was...

Even then, IC Minato doesn't camp in Konoha or summon Ma/Pa Toads so..


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## Bonly (Feb 17, 2013)

I am of the opinion that EMS Sasuke vs Minato most likely comes down to a battle of attrition which is a toss up either way. Sasuke gaining his snake abilities from his Hebi form really won't help much that much. So its pretty much the same as EMS Sasuke vs Minato which means it comes down to a battle of attrition which is still a toss up IMO.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 17, 2013)

Hey, guys, tone it down a little. I don't mind if you don't like each other or anything, but don't let your hostility derail the thread.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 17, 2013)

Bonly said:


> I am of the opinion that EMS Sasuke vs Minato most likely comes down to a battle of attrition which is a toss up either way. Sasuke gaining his snake abilities from his Hebi form really won't help much that much. So its pretty much the same as EMS Sasuke vs Minato which means it comes down to a battle of attrition which is still a toss up IMO.


I think the addition of Oral Rebirth to Sasuke's arsenal, plus the OP's restriction on Minato's mobility, would swing the battle in Sasuke's favor. In a normal battle against regular EMS Sasuke, it would be a tossup like you said, but with Oral Rebirth making it that much harder for Minato to get a kill I think Sasuke might win more often than not. 

Although that may change in a few chapters...


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## ImSerious (Feb 17, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> I think the addition of Oral Rebirth to Sasuke's arsenal, plus the OP's restriction on Minato's mobility, would swing the battle in Sasuke's favor. In a normal battle against regular EMS Sasuke, it would be a tossup like you said, but with Oral Rebirth making it that much harder for Minato to get a kill I think Sasuke might win more often than not.
> 
> Although that may change in a few chapters...



How is oral rebirth gonna change anything? If oral rebirth comes into play that means Minato has tagged Sasuke, which means Minato can just appear behind him and stab him in the back for the rest of the match until hes out of chakra(oral rebirth costs alot of chakra).


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 17, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> How is oral rebirth gonna change anything? If oral rebirth comes into play that means Minato has tagged Sasuke, which means Minato can just appear behind him and stab him in the back for the rest of the match until hes out of chakra(oral rebirth costs alot of chakra).


Oral rebirth creates a new body doesn't it? And the new body isn't tagged.


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## Bonly (Feb 17, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> I think the addition of Oral Rebirth to Sasuke's arsenal would swing the battle in Sasuke's favor. In a normal battle against regular EMS Sasuke, it would be a tossup like you said, but with Oral Rebirth making it that much harder for Minato to get a kill I think Sasuke might win more often than not.
> 
> Although that may change in a few chapters...



I'd have to disagree with you here. Our King Itachi has already stated that using Oral rebirth consumes a massive amount of chakra which using wouldn't be all that helpful IMO. It was already 50/50 on who can outlast who as it was but add in Sasuke losing massive amounts of chakra using it once or twice would tip the scales in Minato's favor. And with his Shunshin+Hiraishin, Minato should be able to dodge most(if not all) of Sasuke's sneak attacks.


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## RBL (Feb 17, 2013)

@antdog is right.

but in my opinion, EMS sasuke takes this. minato got all his powers by his own, but sasuke has been gifted by the gods with all his abilities but 'kirin'. with this Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, he is on another leage, above minato.


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## ImSerious (Feb 17, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> Oral rebirth creates a new body doesn't it? And the new body isn't tagged.



Oh yeah....my bad.


Minato still takes this as Sasuke cant deal with his speed. Susano either gets warped or Minato warps inside, Amaterasu gets dodged and Kirin is dodged/redirected.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 17, 2013)

Bonly said:


> I'd have to disagree with you here. Our King Itachi has already stated that using Oral rebirth consumes a massive amount of chakra which using wouldn't be all that helpful IMO. It was already 50/50 on who can outlast who as it was but add in Sasuke losing massive amounts of chakra using it once or twice would tip the scales in Minato's favor. And with his Shunshin+Hiraishin, Minato should be able to dodge most(if not all) of Sasuke's sneak attacks.


Makes sense. I disregarded the chakra cost because my approach to this matchup didn't focus much on a battle of attrition. But taking your approach I can see the point being made. I'll have to concede on this.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2013)

This is pretty interesting. I'm going to assume "Hebi powers" includes the Curse Seal.

Bear in mind, given we know that the Curse Seal is essentially a watered down Sage Mode, I'm going to assert that using the Curse Seal will power up Sasuke's MS and its jutsu as well. CS2>CS1 in terms of the power up, of course.

Sasuke's going to have to delegate his chakra wisely. Though I don't think he'll need to use Orochimaru's substitution much against Minato. Susanoo with be more than a good shield; it breaks kunai. Even more so when it is enhanced by the Curse Seal; this may mean the lower levels of Susanoo can break kunai too.



> Location: Endless grassy field
> Distance: 70 meters
> Knowledge: Manga?
> Mindset: IC
> Restrictions: Orochimaru can't emerge from Sasuke's body under any circumstances, Manda, Bunta



Manga knowledge makes it hard on the Sasuke side. I'll assume he doesn't. 

Base Sasuke's movements are faster than *base* Minato's; he kept up with a shrouded A (not amplifed). That form of A was said to be faster than Minato (base) and was shown to be canonically faster (Minato required Hiraishin to react).

Why is all this relevant? With his Sharingan, he'll be able to see and react to Minato coming from out of the blue from a random kunai. Sasuke's options range from Susanoo, Kagutsuchi, Chidori Nagashi or a random snake. 

I'm inclined to say that either Kagutsuchi or Susanoo would be probably counters to surprise attacks. In other words it will take effort to take this super Sasuke.

I'm sure the fight will go on long enough for Sasuke to figure out Hiraishin; he figured out Izanagi and A managed to figure out Hiraishin.

This will either mean Sasuke will spam snake summons, use Kagutsuchi, or he'll go airborne. 

I reckon Sasuke's eventually going to beat Minato. _If_ he finds it hard to react, he can just jump to CS1, or 2 to enhance his reflexes and his Sharingan.

A lot of scenarios and possibilities come to mind. However most of them have Sasuke winning, so as such I'm going to go ahead and say *Sasuke wins.*

EDIT

Note that the Minato winning scenarios, most of them, involve him using Shikifuuijin. However the fight ending like that depends on your interpretation. By that I mean if you consider Shikifuujin as a legit Minato victory, he wins. If you consider it as a last resort kill switch that only means he uses it when he can't win, then he loses.


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## Stermor (Feb 17, 2013)

lol minato has the reaction and speed to easily react to any attack sasuke does, and then time space barrier just fires it back at sasuke.. 

that is all there is to it.. sasuke cannot get arround it.. he does not use clones to attack from multiple directions.. he does not have attack can really move arround the time space barrier.. and he isn't fast enough to use a sneak attack.. 

sasuke just doesn't have hte reactions or speed to compete with minato just yet.. alternativly minato doesn't really have much to hurt sasuke with.. but then again he has use a (probebly preprepared) seal.. while sasuke is using high powered jutsu's.. 

atrition is horrible in minato's favor.. 

also it is very likely minato can just create a seal to suck up amaterasu, ala jiriaya his teacher and the person who he has surpassed in sealing..



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Base Sasuke's movements are faster than *base* Minato's; he kept up with a shrouded A (not amplifed). That form of A was said to be faster than Minato (base) and was shown to be canonically faster (Minato required Hiraishin to react).



hahaha you believe sasuke is faster then minato in movement lol 

can i remind you minato used hiriashin with A but he could still react to a full powered attack without trouble.. something sasuke cannot even percieve.. 

then you have obito haveing to rescue sasuke from onoki, and again obito rescueing him from danzo's seal.. both times sasuke was unaware of obito even moving.. 

the same obito was slower then minato.. 

minato is not just faster then sasuke he is so much faster that sasuke cannot even percieve him.. 

remeber sasuke already failed to see bee's base shunsin.. he failed to see Av2 shunsin.. and minato has better reactions then both.. and he has pretty good shunsin track record himself.. 

no sasuke is horrible outmatched in the speed or reaction area..


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2013)

Stermor said:


> hahaha you believe sasuke is faster then minato in movement lol
> 
> can i remind you minato used hiriashin with A but he could still react to a full powered attack without trouble.. something sasuke cannot even percieve..



Key: he needed Hiraishin. That's Minato reacting. 
Unamplified shroud, Minato still needed Hiraishin whereas the Sharingan was enough for Sasuke.



> then you have obito haveing to rescue sasuke from onoki, and again obito rescueing him from danzo's seal.. both times sasuke was unaware of obito even moving..
> 
> the same obito was slower then minato..



Minato was fighting Obito, and Sasuke was not. Obviously Sasuke's not going to keep tabs on someone he isn't keeping tabs on. Further Minato was about as fast as Obito was; Hiraishin was what made him faster.
At most I'd say his reflexes were above Obito's. Then again we're comparing a 14 year old Obito to Minato.



> remeber sasuke already failed to see bee's base shunsin.. he failed to see Av2 shunsin.. and minato has better reactions then both.. and he has pretty good shunsin track record himself..



An injured Sasuke didn't see it. 
How did he fail to see A's V2 Shunshin when he put up Kagutsuchi to defend himself from it?
Minato's Shunshin record apparently still puts him below V1 A, which Sasuke was able to keep up with.


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## Stermor (Feb 17, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Key: he needed Hiraishin. That's Minato reacting.
> Unamplified shroud, Minato still needed Hiraishin whereas the Sharingan was enough for Sasuke.



uhm it was his fastest attack so it wasn't unamplified it was full on v2(which sasuke can't percieve).. and no we don't know if he needed hiraishin or just used it for comfort.. he clearly didn't have a problem reacting.. but we can't say for certain he needed hiraishin.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Minato was fighting Obito, and Sasuke was not. Obviously Sasuke's not going to keep tabs on someone he isn't keeping tabs on. Further Minato was about as fast as Obito was; Hiraishin was what made him faster.
> At most I'd say his reflexes were above Obito's. Then again we're comparing a 14 year old Obito to Minato.



true, but we dont'know if obito got faster in the years.. doesn't really matter though since A has proven minato is fast.. and obito tryed kamui with minato and he noticed and countered.. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> An injured Sasuke didn't see it.
> How did he fail to see A's V2 Shunshin when he put up Kagutsuchi to defend himself from it?
> Minato's Shunshin record apparently still puts him below V1 A, which Sasuke was able to keep up with.



he failed to see, he did not fail to think hey i can't keep up lets use an shield all arround me to prevent him from attacking.. its called anticipation, not reacting.. 

why below v1A?? i don't understand how you get that from anything?? minato has long distance (across konoha) shunsin, he has the jounin from iwa(might be fodder though) and he has the exploding note shunsin.. it is quite clear he is good with shunsin.. he also has way way better reactions then sasuke.. and the reputation as the fastest man alive..


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Key: he needed Hiraishin. That's Minato reacting.
> Unamplified shroud, Minato still needed Hiraishin whereas the Sharingan was enough for Sasuke.







The situations are identical. It's one of the most obvious parallels in the Manga. Both Naruto & Minato dodged Max-Power Ei.

Now:



Notice how Sasuke is completely oblivious to the Raikage. He put's up the Enton Barrier out of desperation, so that no matter how fast Ei was, he was untouchable. 

This is backed by Karin's statements claiming Sasuke cannot follow the Raikage's movements.




Naruto and Minato are capable of following the Raikage's movements, while Sasuke is not.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2013)

Stermor said:


> uhm it was his fastest attack so it wasn't unamplified it was full on v2(which sasuke can't percieve).. and no we don't know if he needed hiraishin or just used it for comfort.. he clearly didn't have a problem reacting.. but we can't say for certain he needed hiraishin.



We do know he needed Hiraishin, he used it. If he didn't, then he wouldn't have required Hiraishin.
We can't say for certain that he _didn't_ need Hiraishin.



> true, but we dont'know if obito got faster in the years.. doesn't really matter though since A has proven minato is fast.. and obito tryed kamui with minato and he noticed and countered..



Well it depends on your stance. If you believe with Hashirama's cells Obito did grow with his speed - at 14 he was the only person aside from A who forced Minato to use Hiraishin in a speed battle.

Hey~ hey~ I'm not saying Minato isn't fast. I'm saying Sasuke isn't too slow to fight. 

How does Obito with Kamui fit in? Though I think I'll better understand your point if I know _which_ Kamui moment you were referencing.



> he failed to see, he did not fail to think hey i can't keep up lets use an shield all arround me to prevent him from attacking.. its called anticipation, not reacting..



You don't believe this anticipation would translate to a battle against Minato?



> why below v1A?? i don't understand how you get that from anything?? minato has long distance (across konoha) shunsin, he has the jounin from iwa(might be fodder though) and he has the exploding note shunsin.. it is quite clear he is good with shunsin.. he also has way way better reactions then sasuke.. and the reputation as the fastest man alive..



Across Konoha? When was this?
I remember the part with the Iwa shinobi was actually Shunshin, if you're referencing the moment I think you're referencing. 

I'm aware of his reputation, but looking at his bout with A, his speed factored in Hiraishin.



Rocky said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Here's the distinction, Minato had to use teleportation. KCM Naruto actually used his speed. Using max power A as a measure, I would say KCM Naruto moves way too fast for the Sasuke ITT to do much of anything.

Why him and not Minato? Naruto physically used his speed, Minato summoned himself to another point.



> Now:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just so I'm clear, are you suggesting Minato would be able to follow V2 A's movements and react (Naruto style) _without_ Hiraishin? That's the general impression I'm getting....

Just so we're clear, using V2 A as a measure, I think between Naruto, Minato and Sasuke, only Naruto can react to him adequately with speed alone. Not including teleportation.

Note I said I think Sasuke could be faster than *base* Minato i.e. Minato without Hiraishin. I showed the page, V1 A forced Minato to use Hiraishin and also Sasuke demonstrably showed he can keep up with that variant of A.

In no way am I suggesting Sasuke will blitz Minato; I never said that. I'm saying Minato won't overwhelm Sasuke like a fodder-nin.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 17, 2013)

@Munboy

Hiraishin still requires thought. You still need to be able to react to use it. Minato was able to toss a kunai (a physical movement), teleport to another kunai, and then teleport back to the kunai he tossed before V2 Ei could move a few inches. That's extremely fast reaction time.

And where did you get the idea that V1 Ei forced Minato to use Hiraishin? That was V2 Ei who tried to punch Minato. The headband is preventing his hair from rising up, so you can't the difference. In this case, I'd rather take Ei's word that it was his fastest speed over appearances. 

Sasuke is invariably slower than Minato's shunshin. Minato has crossed Konoha in seconds with his shunshin, and he moved so quickly that Obito, with his Mangekyo Sharingan, saw nothing but a yellow flash when Minato saved baby Naruto.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> @Munboy
> 
> Hiraishin still requires thought. You still need to be able to react to use it. Minato was able to toss a kunai (a physical movement), teleport to another kunai, and then teleport back to the kunai he tossed before V2 Ei could move a few inches. That's extremely fast reaction time.



The Sharingan allows Sasuke to see people before they even touch him, its up to his capabilities if he reacts. Given the CS = poor man's SM, it should enhance the Sharingan's prediction capabilities. I'm just saying Sasuke won't be "lolblitzed".

Minato threw that kunai up _in the anime_. 

The page suggested Minato teleports to the kunai on the tree _then_ dropped the kunai.



> And where did you get the idea that V1 Ei forced Minato to use Hiraishin? That was V2 Ei who tried to punch Minato. The headband is preventing his hair from rising up, so you can't the difference. In this case, I'd rather take Ei's word that it was his fastest speed over appearances.



The second time A charged towards him. Not the first time.



> Sasuke is invariably slower than Minato's shunshin. Minato has crossed Konoha in seconds with his shunshin, and he moved so quickly that Obito, with his Mangekyo Sharingan, saw nothing but a yellow flash when Minato saved baby Naruto.



Minato Shunshin was praised immensely when? Minato crossed Konoha in seconds with Hiraishin... when?

Obito didn't say he saw a yellow flash, he just said as expected.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 17, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Minato threw that kunai up _in the anime_.
> 
> The page suggested Minato teleports to the kunai on the tree _then_ dropped the kunai.



If you look at the bottom left panel, you see a kunai floating next to Ei. That's the kunai he tossed before he teleported. The anime just makes it clearer. 




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The second time A charged towards him. Not the first time.



Both times actually. The first and the second. But I don't see why it matters, as either way he reacted to V2 Ei's full speed, something Sasuke was incapable of doing. The second time he even did it casually with his back turned towards him. 




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Minato Shunshin was praised immensely when? Minato crossed Konoha in seconds with Hiraishin... when?.



Here

Minato is on top of the Hokage Monument in one panel, while the Kyuubi is outside of the village in the other panel. They're on seperate sides of Konoha. 

The next panel, Gamabunta has been summoned on top of the Kyuubi. And if you check the next page you'll see that Minato is also on top of Gamabunta's head so he crossed the intervening distance as well, in seconds before the Kyuubi could fire an already charged bijuudama.

Now, you'll probably deny that its a shunshin. ITs okay, I'm prepared for that:

1. No Hiraishin kunai or seal was drawn or mentioned, despite every single instance of it being used Kishi draws a kunai/seal or has it mentioned in dialogue (like the formula engraved in Kushina's seal)

2. Gamabunta was summoned in mid-air on top of the Kyuubi, who was outside of the village. So, unless you think (A) Minato has a random kunai floating in mid-air outside of the village, or (B) Minato threw a kunai across all of Konoha, then it had to have been a shunshin. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Obito didn't say he saw a yellow flash, he just said as expected



He said that Minato lived up to his title of Yellow Flash. that implies that Obito saw a yellow flash. BUt I'll drop this one; its not an important point anyways.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> If you look at the bottom left panel, you see a kunai floating next to Ei. That's the kunai he tossed before he teleported. The anime just makes it clearer.



Look at Minato before teleporting, he's holding the kunai. Now look at the panel where he teleported, his hand looks like he dropped something. His arm suggests he threw it towards A. 

The anime added an extra detail, they don't necessarily clear things up. For example... KN6 vs God Realm....




> Both times actually. The first and the second. But I don't see why it matters, as either way he reacted to V2 Ei's full speed, something Sasuke was incapable of doing. The second time he even did it casually with his back turned towards him.



The second time, A wasn't using his max speed. The second time Minato resorted to Hiraishin.



> Here
> 
> Minato is on top of the Hokage Monument in one panel, while the Kyuubi is outside of the village in the other panel. They're on seperate sides of Konoha.
> 
> The next panel, Gamabunta has been summoned on top of the Kyuubi. And if you check the next page you'll see that Minato is also on top of Gamabunta's head so he crossed the intervening distance as well, in seconds before the Kyuubi could fire an already charged bijuudama.



What? You can easily attribute that to Hiraishin, there wasn't any clear Shunshin. That would make him around A's speed, V1. Which isn't the case as per se C.



> 1. No Hiraishin kunai or seal was drawn or mentioned, despite every single instance of it being used Kishi draws a kunai/seal or has it mentioned in dialogue (like the formula engraved in Kushina's seal)
> 
> 2. Gamabunta was summoned in mid-air on top of the Kyuubi, who was outside of the village. So, unless you think (A) Minato has a random kunai floating in mid-air outside of the village, or (B) Minato threw a kunai across all of Konoha, then it had to have been a shunshin.



Not denying it wasn't Hiraishin, I just see no indication that he used Shunshin from the forest all the way to that location. Furthermore, wouldn't his home village have tags?
For all we know Minato could've been moving (remember he is a speedster) while Hiruzen and co were fighting Kurama. If he performed some insane speed feat, it would've defo been highlighted.

Minato can throw kunai pretty far, as can any shinobi in this series. It isn't a stretch to believe that's what happened with Bunta. 

There are more possibilities than just "either Hiraishin or Shunshin".



> He said that Minato lived up to his title of Yellow Flash. that implies that Obito saw a yellow flash. BUt I'll drop this one; its not an important point anyways.



That doesn't imply Obito saw a Yellow Flash... Going by C, Minato had a reputation for being decently fast without Hiraishin. Obito may've meant he lived up to that.


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## Bonly Jr. (Feb 17, 2013)

Never ever try to restrict Minato, to put him at a disadvantage!

Look at the OP'ness of Minato. Some -snip- may claim Minato is "limited in kunai", but is he? When he saved Naruto from the exploding tag, we was shown to teleport to his safe house, where he keeps many many FTG kunai. He runs out, goes home, gets more, and continues. All would happen under 30 seconds, deal with it!


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Here's the distinction, Minato had to use teleportation. KCM Naruto actually used his speed. Using max power A as a measure, I would say KCM Naruto moves way too fast for the Sasuke ITT to do much of anything.
> 
> Why him and not Minato? Naruto physically used his speed, Minato summoned himself to another point.
> 
> ...



You've misinterpreted my point.

Minato's reflexes don't change if Hiraishin is stripped from him, only how quickly he can get from one point to another does.

I'll lay this out in plain terms:

Naruto perceived The Raikage's Body Flicker and avoided using his own Flicker.

Minato perceived The Raikage's Body Flicker, tossed a Kunai above Ei's shoulder (see spoiler), and avoided using the Flying Thunder God Technique.

Sasuke couldn't perceive the Raikage's, as noted by Karin, so he threw up a fire barrier to protect himself from any attacks.

Minato is above Sharingan Sasuke in the reflex department. If Minato was able to make the Max-Power Raikage look foolish, Sasuke will certainly be overwhelmed.



You could try to claim Minato through the Kunai from the tree, but that's a better feat anyway. If Minato can blitz Ei with a Kunai, then Sasuke doesn't stand a chance.


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## Bonly Jr. (Feb 17, 2013)

☯The Heartbreak Kid☯ said:


> Try not to get banned.



For what? I'm merely relaying Minato's advantage in this fight. Not to mention he has the best hair.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> *You could try to claim Minato through the Kunai from the tree*, but that's a better feat anyway. If Minato can blitz Ei with a Kunai, then Sasuke doesn't stand a chance.



That _is_ what I'm claiming. I'm not trying to devalue Minato's feats or speed, not at all. 
My only point is that Sasuke isn't going to be insta-killed.


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That _is_ what I'm claiming. I'm not trying to devalue Minato's feats or speed, not at all.
> My only point is that Sasuke isn't going to be insta-killed.



If Minato really threw that Kunai from the tree, that means he got it there before V2 Ei could move. Sasuke would slaughtered in an even worse fashion if Minato could really throw his Kunai that fast.

Do you have any evidence suggesting he through it anyway, other than your opinion that his hand looked like he threw it?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> If Minato really threw that Kunai from the tree, that means he got it there before V2 Ei could move. Sasuke would slaughtered in an even worse fashion if Minato could really throw his Kunai that fast.
> 
> Do you have any evidence suggesting he through it anyway, other than your opinion that his hand looked like he threw it?



Minato got there because he teleported, of course he got to the three before A could move.

There's no evidence to suggest he threw it before going to the three, aside from the anime. In the Gaiden we _did_ see Minato throw shuriken really quickly.


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There's no evidence to suggest he threw it before going to the three, aside from the anime. In the Gaiden we _did_ see Minato throw shuriken really quickly.



Except for the fact that Minato didn't have the Kunai upon arriving from the tree. I also don't know you don't trust the anime. Non-filler parts are always identical to the Manga. If Minato really threw it from the tree, why didn't the animators draw him doing so? Why are you so dead set on them getting it wrong?

There's no evidence suggesting he the it from the tree. Literally, we see Minato arriving at the tree without the Kunai. When would he have thrown it?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Except for the fact that Minato didn't have the Kunai upon arriving from the tree. I also don't know you don't trust the anime. Non-filler parts are always identical to the Manga. If Minato really threw it from the tree, why didn't the animators draw him doing so? Why are you so dead set on them getting it wrong?
> 
> There's no evidence suggesting he the it from the tree. Literally, we see Minato arriving at the tree without the Kunai. When would he have thrown it?



His hand/arm suggested he dropped it from the tree. There was _nothing_ in the initial panel to suggest that he threw it _before_ teleporting.

I'm not dead set on them getting it wrong, I'm looking at the page and can see _no_ indication for it. I'm also aware that the "Minato threw it before he teleported" stance comes from the anime; it was never an argument before the episode was released.

You're right, there's no concrete evidence to say he threw it from the tree. At the same time there is no evidence at all to suggest that he threw it before teleporting.
However the Gaiden does show that Minato is capable of throwing multiple shinobi projectiles pretty far from a distance... so _one_ kunai surely shouldn't be unbelievable.


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## αce (Feb 17, 2013)

> He can counter Susanoo by throwing a kunai at it, then creating an S/T  Barrier inside of the construct using the warping radius of the kunai.



I've seen this said far too often. So basically Minato can teleport behind a wall he so chooses because of the radius? And besides, this claim contradicts your first point about Amaterasu not touching him. If Minato goes inside Susano-o, no matter how fast he is, it'll take him a moment to use rasengan on Sasuke. Well, have fun getting an Amaterasu to the throat if that's the case.

Susano-o is Minato's hard counter. Just as it was with the Raikage when he took on Madara. Speed does him no good as he has nothing that can break it.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Feb 17, 2013)

EMS plus Curse Mark? Can I get a Sasuke up in here!


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> His hand/arm suggested he dropped it from the tree. There was _nothing_ in the initial panel to suggest that he threw it _before_ teleporting.
> 
> I'm not dead set on them getting it wrong, I'm looking at the page and can see _no_ indication for it. I'm also aware that the "Minato threw it before he teleported" stance comes from the anime; it was never an argument before the episode was released.
> 
> ...



Did you look at the panel? Minato arrives at the tree _without the Kuani._ _That's_ the evidence that that he threw it before.



Look, you can still see the flicker lines on him indicating he just arrived. No Kunai in his hand. By the way, having his hand open does not indicate he threw something.

And as I said before, the animators don't change non-filler material for fun.



αce said:


> I've seen this said far too often. So basically Minato can teleport behind a wall he so chooses because of the radius? And besides, this claim contradicts your first point about Amaterasu not touching him. If Minato goes inside Susano-o, no matter how fast he is, it'll take him a moment to use rasengan on Sasuke. Well, have fun getting an Amaterasu to the throat if that's the case.
> 
> Susano-o is Minato's hard counter. Just as it was with the Raikage when he took on Madara. Speed does him no good as he has nothing that can break it.



Minato has demonstrated the ability warp others _without_ direct contact. He's warped Kurama through Gammabunta, so he should be able to warp Sasuke though Susano'o.


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## Dr. White (Feb 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Did you look at the panel? Minato arrives at the tree _without the Kuani._ _That's_ the evidence that that he threw it before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Minato indeed was able to react to V2 Raikage there but without Hirashin there is no way he would have avoided it. In cases where Minato doesn't have Hirashin he is exactly like Sasuke in his first battle vs Lee, he'd see it coming but couldn't react. The problem lies in that some people believe this makes him 100% invincible which is not the case, one cannot deceive Minato into a point where he can't react, destroy the kunai, or get creative in many ways. Here EMS Sasuke definitely has the tools to destroy kunai, or press Minato into' a situation where he can't react. EMS is a big factor here as Sasuke will be able to go all out in a full scale battle, and with Ama shuriken, improved, Tsukyomi and Susano I don't see much Minato is doing here


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Minato indeed was able to react to V2 Raikage there but without Hirashin there is no way he would have avoided it. In cases where Minato doesn't have Hirashin he is exactly like Sasuke in his first battle vs Lee, he'd see it coming but couldn't react. The problem lies in that some people believe this makes him 100% invincible which is not the case, one cannot deceive Minato into a point where he can't react, destroy the kunai, or get creative in many ways. Here EMS Sasuke definitely has the tools to destroy kunai, or press Minato into' a situation where he can't react. EMS is a big factor here as Sasuke will be able to go all out in a full scale battle, and with Ama shuriken, improved, Tsukyomi and Susano I don't see much Minato is doing here



....I never gave judgement on the match.


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## αce (Feb 17, 2013)

> Minato has demonstrated the ability warp others _without_ direct contact. He's warped Kurama through Gammabunta, so he should be able to warp Sasuke though Susano'o.



That was just an application of the same jutsu he used to warp the Bijuu dama aimed at him earlier. If he warps Sasuke, he's warping him and Susano-o together. There's absolutely no basis for him being able to warp one part and leave the exterior coverage behind. That's like saying he could warp your heart out of your body and leave the carcass behind.


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

αce said:


> That was just an application of the same jutsu he used to warp the Bijuu dama aimed at him earlier. If he warps Sasuke, he's warping him and Susano-o together. There's absolutely no basis for him being able to warp one part and leave the exterior coverage behind. That's like saying he could warp your heart out of your body and leave the carcass behind.



What? It's nothing like that. Susano'o and Sasuke are separate entities.

I don't see why Minato couldn't teleport Sasuke through the solid structure of Susano'o if he could teleport Kurama through the solid structure of Bunta.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Did you look at the panel? Minato arrives at the tree _without the Kuani._
> 
> 
> 
> ...



His hand looks like he let go of something... then the next panel we see a kunai near A.

How do we know the animators don't alter some canon "for fun"?
In fact there is evidence to indicate otherwise.

I'll post one picture and cite one other instances.

Another instance is how Nagato executed CT; in the manga he threw it, but in the anime he released it like a butterfly.

The point? The anime _are_ capable of altering canon scenes. Yes, the edited a small scene... but the Minato-kunai thing was a small scene too. 
So that does reduce the credibility of the point that the anime don't alter canon material... well there is the infamous Deva vs KN6 episode.....


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> His hand looks like he let go of something... then the next panel we see a kunai near A.
> 
> How do we know the animators don't alter some canon "for fun"?
> In fact there is evidence to indicate otherwise.
> ...



Ok, the anime thing is pointless. I'll concede the point because it was never canon to begin with.

Minato doesn't look like he let go of anything, his hand was just open.

How would Minato throw a Kuani from a tree if we can see him arriving at the tree with no Kuani?


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## Dr. White (Feb 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> ....I never gave judgement on the match.



I was admitting that you were indeed right in the argument you were in when I quoted you, Minato did indeed get the kunai above his shoulder before FTG'ing/ What I was claiming is that it mean nothing besides that he has good slight reaction time(he would have been decapitated in base), he is no faster than a character like Kakashi, Itachi, or Sasuke without FTG, and even with FTG he is not as effective as Ei or KCM Naruto as I think some fans like to portray his speed as. 

Minato's Hirashin is not about speed its about displacement of time/space which we intepret as speed, but in reality nothing is being moved, minus his actions before and after the activation of each "jump". FTG is much more comparable to Kamui, then it is super speed. Ei can willingly change his direction and choose where and when to speed up/change direction. Minato is at the mercy of where is seals are, and where he can transport them to, and while that does give him utility in other places barring speed, his use of FTG really can't be compared to Ei or Naruto's use of blitzing speed to counter. 

Sorry for the irrelevant rant


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Minato doesn't look like he let go of anything, his hand was just open.
> 
> How would Minato throw a Kuani from a tree if we can see him arriving at the tree with no Kuani?



How would Minato throw a kunai before teleporting if the opposition was so fast that Minato had to resort to Hiraishin?
Plus the open hand _could_ arguably indicate that he dropped the kunai. It has some support as the next panel literally has the kunai placed above A, but almost directly below Minato.


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> and even with FTG he is not as effective as Ei or KCM Naruto as I think some fans like to portray his speed as.



This is kind of funny.

The Raikage admits inferiority in speed and you think Ei is more effective?


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 17, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How would Minato throw a kunai before teleporting if the opposition was so fast that Minato had to resort to Hiraishin?
> Plus the open hand _could_ arguably indicate that he dropped the kunai. It has some support as the next panel literally has the kunai placed above A, but almost directly below Minato.



So let me get this straight; you're saying that Minato teleported to the tree, then he dropped the kunai, and it somehow managed to land near the Raikage despite the tree not being directly above Ei and actually be quite far away. 

Or are you saying that he teleported to tree, then threw his kunai back at Ei so quickly that Ei couldn't even move a few inches at maximum speed? That's even worse, and gives Minato an even better feat of throwing kunai. 

Basically, the former is impossible as the kunai wouldn't land anywhere near Ei, and the latter case gives Minato an even better feat of being able to throw kunai faster than Ei can move. 

I think mine and Rocky's explanation is much more plausible, but if you want to go with the route that gives Minato even better feats, fine by me. 



αce said:


> That was just an application of the same jutsu he used to warp the Bijuu dama aimed at him earlier. If he warps Sasuke, he's warping him and Susano-o together. There's absolutely no basis for him being able to warp one part and leave the exterior coverage behind. That's like saying he could warp your heart out of your body and leave the carcass behind.



Wrong. That was just an expanded Hiraishin warp; nothing whatsover suggests that it was an S/T barrier, which functions completely different. Suggesting such is baseless. 

There's a big difference between a heart and a seperate entity like Susanoo. If Gaara's sand can seperate the user from Susanoo, then there's no reason why a jutsu that bends the fabric of space cannot do the same, especially when said jutsu has already been shown to be selective. 



αce said:


> I've seen this said far too often. So basically Minato can teleport behind a wall he so chooses because of the radius? And besides, this claim contradicts your first point about Amaterasu not touching him. If Minato goes inside Susano-o, no matter how fast he is, it'll take him a moment to use rasengan on Sasuke. Well, have fun getting an Amaterasu to the throat if that's the case.
> 
> Susano-o is Minato's hard counter. Just as it was with the Raikage when he took on Madara. Speed does him no good as he has nothing that can break it.



Nothing contradicts Minato being able to teleport behind a wall if he has a tag positioned correctly. When using Hiraishin, Minato doesn't physically travel the intervening space; its instantaneous dimensional teleportation. Physical barriers like Susanoo should be as easy to circumvent with an S/T tech as ordinary walls. Unless you can make a strong case that Susanoo is a multi-dimensional construct, its not blocking teleportation. 

About your other point; Minato doesn't have to make the S/T Barrier in plain sight. With his speed he can easily break line of sight and perform the maneuver in a more secure location, or he can throw the kunai from behind and do it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> So let me get this straight; you're saying that Minato teleported to the tree, then he dropped the kunai, and it somehow managed to land near the Raikage despite the tree not being directly above Ei and actually be quite far away.



Look at Minato's arm, the position it was in. Shinobi have thrown kunai pretty far, pretty fast before.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 17, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Look at Minato's arm, the position it was in. Shinobi have thrown kunai pretty far, pretty fast before.


Okay, so you're saying that Minato threw a kunai faster than V2 Ei could move a few inches. Alright, I can accept that. 

Better feats for Minato.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> Okay, so you're saying that Minato threw a kunai faster than V2 Ei could move a few inches. Alright, I can accept that.
> 
> Better feats for Minato.



But yet he required Hiraishin for a V1 A... the same A that Sasuke kept up with. Ergo, my point is still that Minato isn't instant killing Sasuke.


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> But yet he required Hiraishin for a V1 A... the same A that Sasuke kept up with. Ergo, my point is still that Minato isn't instant killing Sasuke.



They were both V2....

Like, Minato was about to insta-kill A, whos tiers faster than Sauce.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> They were both V2....



The second was V1. 

noted

noted


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The second was V1.
> 
> noted
> 
> noted



Why would Ei downgrade??


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## Dr. White (Feb 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> This is kind of funny.
> 
> The Raikage admits inferiority in speed and you think Ei is more effective?



Red Herring?
Ei's speed is fast, but no where near instant. You didn't counter to any of my points as to why I said this/


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 17, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> But yet he required Hiraishin for a V1 A... the same A that Sasuke kept up with. Ergo, my point is still that Minato isn't instant killing Sasuke.


Where does it say he _requires_ Hiraishin. That doesn't negate the other feat. 

And Ei was in V2 the whole time. Like I said earlier, the headband was preventing his hair from fluttering. I would rather take Ei's statement of being at his fastest speed as well as the parallel made with Naruto's feat over appearances, which can be deceiving especially since the only physical difference between V1 and V2 is the hair fluttering, which is prevented by the headband.


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## Rocky (Feb 17, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Red Herring?
> Ei's speed is fast, but no where near instant. You didn't counter to any of my points as to why I said this/





Dr. White said:


> and even with FTG he is not as effective as Ei



Hiraishin is more effective that The RnY Body Flicker, as proven when Minato defeated Ei.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Why would Ei downgrade??



I'm not the author, I can't answer that question. However apparently he did.



The Dreaded Alias said:


> Where does it say he _requires_ Hiraishin. That doesn't negate the other feat.
> 
> And Ei was in V2 the whole time. Like I said earlier, the headband was preventing his hair from fluttering. I would rather take Ei's statement of being at his fastest speed as well as the parallel made with Naruto's feat over appearances, which can be deceiving especially since the only physical difference between V1 and V2 is the hair fluttering, which is prevented by the headband.



We saw it. 

He wasn't in V2 the whole time. With V2, the hair fluttered a little. The second time, it didn't.


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## Dr. White (Feb 17, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Hiraishin is more effective that The RnY Body Flicker, as proven when Minato defeated Ei.



No Minato is more effective with Hirashin than Ei is with his speed. That is different than claiming Hirashin > RnY in all aspects. You still have yet to respond to my points, so I take it you won't...?

Ei isn't an extremely tactical fighter, and let his emotions get the best of him per his IC expectedness. Minato is smart, and countered him perfectly being countered by the patient Bee himself. Hirashin is not more effective than RnY in all aspects, Minato can't move to places instantly without his tags being there whilst Ei can do this by simple thought, not to mention change directions, etc at the cost of arriving 10/100'ths of a second later.

For example Minato would be much more hardpressed vs Itachi with RnY than Ei/


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 17, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He wasn't in V2 the whole time. With V2, the hair fluttered a little. The second time, it didn't.



The hair fluttering a little bit is so minute that the second time it was probably just forgotten because its so unimportant. You're scrutinizing the scene far too much. Ei specifically said he was at his top speed, so I'd rather take his word over appearances which can be faulty in this case.


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## Luftwaffles (Feb 17, 2013)

\( ・ω・)/

Free hugs to all.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 17, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> The hair fluttering a little bit is so minute that the second time it was probably just forgotten because its so unimportant. You're scrutinizing the scene far too much. Ei specifically said he was at his top speed, so I'd rather take his word over appearances which can be faulty in this case.



A said it was his top speed _the first time_. The second time he just ran towards him, and we saw his hair lacked that fluttering trait.

noted < Even when knocked down, his hair still fluttered.


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## Stermor (Feb 18, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm not the author, I can't answer that question. However apparently he did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



isn't it more likely that the visual signals you apperently look for to see v2 are just a coincidence?? not really something required for the jutsu.. it would make much more sense that he keeps going at full speed 

then he slows down because his hair isn't fluttering anymore.. it seems like a case of searching for details that don't really have much to do with it to support your argument.. 

anyway it would make even less sense since we know the raikage was inferior in speed (by his own words)..


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 18, 2013)

Sasuke can remain protected within Susanoo against Minato's assaults. Minato can also dodge pretty much all of Sasuke's attacks through Hiraishin.

Sasuke however can destroy Minato's Kunai through his Enton style. Eventually, there won't be any kunai left for Minato to port to.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 18, 2013)

Stermor said:


> isn't it more likely that the visual signals you apperently look for to see v2 are just a coincidence?? not really something required for the jutsu.. it would make much more sense that he keeps going at full speed



The visual cue is there, it was established that his hair _always_ flutters when he's in V2 and it doesn't when he isn't. The second time, it clearly wasn't.



> then he slows down because his hair isn't fluttering anymore.. it seems like a case of searching for details that don't really have much to do with it to support your argument



We've seen, well after that time, that A's hair does flutter when he's in V2, constantly regardless if he speeds down or not. Same case in the flashback, i.e. my argument is supported by the visual cues. Your argument hinges on "it makes more sense if".



> anyway it would make even less sense since we know the raikage was inferior in speed (by his own words)..



Find me a post here where I contested that. 
I said Minato without Hiraishin isn't faster than A using the shroud, in general. I used that to say this would suggest Sasuke won't be speed blitzed considering he was able to anticipate A's V2 attacks and react with the MS.

Even more so in this thread now that Sasuke's CS1/2 (you can call it the poor man's Sage Mode) would likely enhance Sasuke's perception and overall speed too.


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## Stermor (Feb 18, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The visual cue is there, it was established that his hair _always_ flutters when he's in V2 and it doesn't when he isn't. The second time, it clearly wasn't.
> 
> We've seen, well after that time, that A's hair does flutter when he's in V2, constantly regardless if he speeds down or not. Same case in the flashback, i.e. my argument is supported by the visual cues. Your argument hinges on "it makes more sense if".



well the hair didn't flutter with minato and with madara (btw did his hair flutter with naruto??).. both guys are extremly powerful and wouldn't make sense for E to go slower.. so we have several cases where it did and several where it didn't.. as far as i'm concerned his hair fluttering or not does not indicate wether he is in v2 or not.. especially when he said 2 seconds before hand he was going full speed..




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Find me a post here where I contested that.
> I said Minato without Hiraishin isn't faster than A using the shroud, in general. I used that to say this would suggest Sasuke won't be speed blitzed considering he was able to anticipate A's V2 attacks and react with the MS.



the only thing minato might be slightly slower then A is in shunsin speed.. but even that can be contested.. especially since E considers himself inferior.. 

anyway sasuke can anticipate E in v2 but he can't actually react.. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Even more so in this thread now that Sasuke's CS1/2 (you can call it the poor man's Sage Mode) would likely enhance Sasuke's perception and overall speed too.



true cs will probebly help a bit with perception and speed.. but him covering the huge gap with cs is unlikely.. 

anyway i still believe minato won't have a trouble countering any attacks sasuke can do..


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## blk (Feb 18, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> Sasuke can remain protected within Susanoo against Minato's assaults. Minato can also dodge pretty much all of Sasuke's attacks through Hiraishin.
> 
> Sasuke however can destroy Minato's Kunai through his Enton style. *Eventually, there won't be any kunai left for Minato to port to.*



Minato can tag everything he touches, so the absence of Kunai ain't a real problem.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 18, 2013)

Stermor said:


> well the hair didn't flutter with minato and with madara (btw did his hair flutter with naruto??).. both guys are extremly powerful and wouldn't make sense for E to go slower.. so we have several cases where it did and several where it didn't.. as far as i'm concerned his hair fluttering or not does not indicate wether he is in v2 or not.. especially when he said 2 seconds before hand he was going full speed..



The hair did flutter the first time with Minato; not the second time (see "past: normal; amplified" for the pages).
The hair was also a cue with Madara, notice the style when it goes up as opposed to its normal style when it isn't amplified. Same with Naruto.

Past: normal; amplified. Future: normal; amplified.
The visual cue is there.



> the only thing minato might be slightly slower then A is in shunsin speed.. but even that can be contested.. especially since E considers himself inferior..



The way C made it sound, it is definitely more than "slightly". 
A considers himself inferior because Minato dodged his max speed; that wasn't with Shunshin. 



> anyway sasuke can anticipate E in v2 but he can't actually react..



Neither could Minato, hence the teleportation to get out of there. However Sasuke also managed to use a last minute jutsu to cover himself too.

As I've been saying many-a-time, this just means Sasuke isn't getting speed blitzed. That isn't Minato's only strength.


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