# Tobirama vs Itachi



## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

*Location:* Amegakure

*Distance:* 30 metres

*Mindset:* IC

*Knowledge:* Full

*Restrictions:* ET

*Additional Info:* 


Tobirama is not an ET but has all of his feats
Itachi is sick and doesn't have Koto crow
Itachi starts with 3-Tomoe


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## hbcaptain (Nov 7, 2015)

It would be a balanced fight until Itachi lost his stamina , then he will lose .


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## t0xeus (Nov 7, 2015)

Full knowledge for both?

Tobirama abuses that he has better stamina and outlasts Itachi while spamming large suitons whenever Itachi tries to attack.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Sick Itachi is a funny character. I'm not sure if there's a character more reliant on his opponent not knowing anything about him than sickly Itachi is. The "you lost when you looked at me" thing can steal him _alot_ of fights. 

Yes, even fights against ninja who are typically comfortable against the Sharingan. Or ninja that possess the swiftness to avoid most of Itachi's "unavoidable" techniques. Or ninja that have the smarts to match Itachi's own and not to get played like a Kakuzu. Or ninja that possess the stamina to keep going at a competent level far longer than Itachi can, even if he _wasn't_ on life support. Or ninja that can do all of the above.

Like Tobirama.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

Tobirama has to deal with Amaterasu/magatama/totsuka while at the same time watching out for all methods of genjutsu Itachi can employ. 
And he has what ? Some ranged suitons and Hirashin Giri. He is very limited offensively. His only shot is trying to outlast Itachi and run around till he drops dead. 
I'd give this to Itachi more times than not.



t0xeus said:


> Full knowledge for both?
> 
> Tobirama abuses that he has better stamina and outlasts Itachi while spamming large suitons whenever Itachi tries to attack.



Itachi preempts and hits him with a suiton of his own, like he did to Sage Kabuto.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Itachi can instantly copy any suiton he attempts to use. Even A ranks. Infact given how fast his handsigns are his might actually beat Tobirama's lol.

If Tobirama botches his opening blitz, Itachi already has him in a genjutsu. Knowing about Itachi's genjutsu doesn't mean shit unless you have a direct way to nullify it. He doesn't need eye contact.


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## Matty (Nov 7, 2015)

I don't see Itachi losing. Although it will be an extremely close fight


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## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Itachi can instantly copy any suiton he attempts to use. Even A ranks. Infact given how fast his handsigns are his might actually beat Tobirama's lol.



But it's OOC for Itachi to copy Jutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

I hope thats sarcasm.


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## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I hope thats sarcasm.



Has Itachi ever copied Jutsu? Forgive me if I'm wrong but I can't recall him ever doing so.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Itachі said:


> Has Itachi ever copied Jutsu? Forgive me if I'm wrong but I can't recall him ever doing so.



*Facepalm*


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

^
You took the facepalm out of my palm friend.


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## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> *Facepalm*



why don't you try providing a little substance m8

i legitimately don't remember him ever copying jutsu with his sharingan, not bothered to try and dig it out


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Itachi read through Kabuto's intended water jutsu inside of Izanami, and preempted Kabuto with his own.


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## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Itachi read through Kabuto's intended water jutsu inside of Izanami, and preempted Kabuto with his own.



That doesn't mean he copied it though, was it implied that he did? Itachi has used Suiton before so it's definitely not something that's far reaching.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

^
May or may not have copied it, but we know prior to that he hadn't used Suigadan.

Although sharingan is stated to have the capability of copying ninjutsu and databook explains it in detail, so Itachi should be able to copy any jutsu that he has affinity in, as long as he can observe it being performed(save for bloodline techniques). I can link you sharingan's databook entry if you like.

But mate, you are trying to swim against the current.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Even though there might not be alot of instances he has displayed it, actually it might just be that one time, from my memory anyways.

It's a basic ability of the Sharingan. And it's not just ninjutsu either, even Sasuke as a kid was able to copy advanced taijutsu. Kakashi easily copied Zabuza and Kisame's suiton as well.

There isn't really enough panel time for Uchiha's to be pre-empting people, easier to just get to the actual jutsu that matter such as the nukefest this manga turned into.

Itachi didn't do it because he has never needed to. His only real battle was against SM Kabuto. The rest of his skirmishes he dealt with by using simple genjutsu or a Tsukiyomi for good measure.


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## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Even though there might not be alot of instances he has displayed it, actually it might just be that one time, from my memory anyways.
> 
> It's a basic ability of the Sharingan. And it's not just ninjutsu either, even Sasuke as a kid was able to copy advanced taijutsu. Kakashi easily copied Zabuza and Kisame's suiton as well.
> 
> ...





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi has the capability, so he should be able to do it if he deems necessary.
> 
> Asking proof for this is facepalm worthy.



I literally just explained my point. Now I'm facepalming. I know that Itachi has the ability to facepalm, I was wondering whether he had actually used it in battle. Itachi has never done it before so it's not sensible to rely on him doing it to counter a random Suiton from Tobirama.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Just as it wasn't sensible for people to even think random suitons would even do shit to Itachi. In the scenario he did it's just one of the ways Itachi could counter it.

It's just people grasping at straws lol.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

Itachі said:


> I know that Itachi has the ability to facepalm,



What an ability 



> I was wondering whether he had actually used it in battle. Itachi has never done it before so it's not sensible to rely on him doing it to counter a random Suiton from Tobirama.



I just proved that he did. He copied and cast Kurenai genjutsu back on her.

Now you deserved another facepalm.



Ghoztly said:


> It's just people grasping at straws lol.



Sad but seems to be pretty common nowadays.


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## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> edit : He copied and cast Kurenai's genjutsu on her. Thats how sharingan's reversal technique works. I can also give you the databook link.
> 
> But mate, you are trying to swim against the current.



ah right, fair enough. still doesn't warrant him really using it, he's faced many opponents and he didn't use it against them. why would he use it against kurenai of all opponents? plus, it was in part 1. has anyone copied jutsu in part 2? kishi did away with it sadly. yeah, itachi _could_ copy jutsu but i highly doubt it. it's unlikely.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I just proved that he did. He copied and cast Kurenai genjutsu back on her.
> 
> Now you deserved another facepalm.



except that you edited it in after i replied


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

Itachі said:


> ah right, fair enough. still doesn't warrant him really using it, he's faced many opponents and he didn't use it against them. why would he use it against kurenai of all opponents? plus, it was in part 1. has anyone copied jutsu in part 2? kishi did away with it sadly. yeah, itachi _could_ copy jutsu but i highly doubt it. it's unlikely.
> 
> 
> 
> except that you edited it in after i replied



Do you realize that you are still trying to grasp at straws ? 

I mean you asked for evidence, and I gave it to you. Now you are you producing random excuses.

Bottom line is, Itachi can use it when he thinks it viable.
Lets just leave it at that


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## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Do you realize that you are still trying to grasp at straws ?
> 
> I mean you asked for evidence, and I gave it to you. Now you are you producing random excuses.
> 
> ...



I'm grasping at straws? So Itachi copied a Jutsu once throughout all of his battles, I'm just saying that he's not likely to use it. I'm not saying he definitely won't, it's like saying that Kakashi will use Kawarimi. They have barely used it, Part 2 did away with log Kawarimi and Jutsu copying. It's fine to say that Itachi might copy Jutsu but it's stupid to say that he will or that he's likely to. Unless it's a Jutsu that he can't counter, why would he do it? Itachi has Suitons of his own to counter Tobirama's Suitons.

Strange to use it against Kurenai of all people..


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

She was too fodder to waste time using his own jutsu.

Sad, but true IMO. I swore he even smirked at her like she was being a total dumbass, which she was.


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## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> She was too fodder to waste time using his own jutsu.
> 
> Sad, but true IMO. I swore he even smirked at her like she was being a total dumbass, which she was.



so using one of his own jutsu would have wasted more time than copying a completely different jutsu and using it against her? 

he did smirk tho


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

Itachі said:


> I'm grasping at straws? So Itachi copied a Jutsu once throughout all of his battles, I'm just saying that he's not likely to use it. I'm not saying he definitely won't, it's like saying that Kakashi will use Kawarimi. They have barely used it, Part 2 did away with log Kawarimi and Jutsu copying. It's fine to say that Itachi might copy Jutsu but it's stupid to say that he will or that he's likely to. Unless it's a Jutsu that he can't counter, why would he do it? Itachi has Suitons of his own to counter Tobirama's Suitons.
> 
> Strange to use it against Kurenai of all people..



What you are doing is the true definition of grasping at straws.

You first claimed that it is OOC for Itachi to copy jutsu, and then you started coming up with other excuses when you are presented with evidence.

Its like saying that Kakashi won't use raiton bunshin because he only used it once(or twice can't remember). 

In the battledome it is safe to assume that tachi can copy jutsus that he has the prerequisites to do so. I have no idea why you made such a big deal out of it.


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## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What you are doing is the true definition of grasping at straws.
> 
> You first claimed that it is OOC for Itachi to copy jutsu, and then you started coming up with other excuses when you are presented with evidence.
> 
> ...



but.. it's still ooc. just because a character does something once in more than a few battles i don't think it's fair to expect them to do it. especially something as useful as copying jutsu, itachi used it in a weird situation against kurenai when it wasn't required and then he never used it again. i have no reason to grasp at straws, it's not like i want it to be ooc for itachi to copy jutsu. 

he can copy jutsu but it doesn't mean that he _will_. i never said that he won't, just that it's not likely. copying jutsu is something that's generally useful that itachi doesn't really use, it's not like it's a technique that's obscure or that's only useful in a very specific situation. the user i responded to acted like itachi would likely copy tobirama's suitons when that is not the case.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

You said its OOC because you thought he never did it.
You learned that he did, and now you are still saying its OOC.

Whatever man, lol.


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## ARGUS (Nov 7, 2015)

Tobirama wins this, 

 -- Susanoo gets teleported, or its attacks are evaded till itachi drops it down and gets marked 

 -- amatearsus built up is sensed. its spawn is reacted to and instatntly evaded with FTG. having clones reduces the probability of it landing on tobirama either way

 -- genjutsu is coutnered by having many clones around the battlefield. and the means of FTG prevents him from having eye contact either way. With intel and experience agianst sharingan. its not happening 

 -- CQC is suicide unless itachi wants to end up marked and blitzed


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## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You said its OOC because you thought he never did it.
> You learned that he did, and now you are still saying its OOC.
> 
> Whatever man, lol.



He did it once in a situation where it was weird for him to do so. If he had one situation where he needed to use and and he did use it then I'd say fair enough, it's likely that he would copy Jutsu, but no such thing has happened. I was reconsidering when you and that other user facepalmed, I thought that maybe I missed something where Itachi copied Jutsu in a relevant situation. But nah, I didn't.

Again, Kakashi's used Kawarimi before, does it mean that he's likely to use it now? Even though Kakashi used it more than just once, he's never used it a single time in Part 2 if I remember correctly. So would you say that it's in character for Kakashi to use Kawarimi in a battle? You probably wouldn't even _consider_ Kakashi using it.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Knowledge: Full

Nobody sane would leave themself open to FTG blitz that easily.

Thing is Itachi doesn't need eye contact, so Tobirama's knowledge means shit after Itachi clone trolls him.


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## Vice (Nov 7, 2015)

It's silly to think that Itachi couldn't copy jutsu, it's one of the Sharingan's basic abilities, but I do agree that it's not within his character to do so because we only have one confirmed instance in the entire manga where he has done so.


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## LostSelf (Nov 7, 2015)

Sick Itachi's not beating Tobirama.

The man's a sensor, and sensing has shown to troll Amaterasu. And... that' the only threat i see Tobirama facing.
He can mark and Hiraishin, and proceed to teleport anytime he senses Amaterasu coming, and anytime he needs to force Itachi to use Susano'o.

Even if Itachi manages to feint him, Tobirama can always teleport. 

I give my vote to him.


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## Complete_Ownage (Nov 7, 2015)

Tobirama is simply a superior shinobi then Itachi plus his entire aresnal trolls practically every jutsu Itachi can think of using bar Izanami.

Faster, stronger, smarter, sensor, years of experions fighting uchiha

Tobirama wins this via hard dificulty though wont be easy


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Lol. Same explanations for Tobirama and Minato using the FTG blitz speed bs. With knowledge, 1v1, nobody is getting bltized here. 

He won't do shit after he's caught in a genjutsu. No sharingan, no genjutsu defense and he isn't Kabuto.

Itachi won't even activate Susanoo with knowledge, he knows Tobirama can troll it.

Same goes for Amaterasu.

Knowledge: FULL

FULL

FULL

Only thing is even with full knowledge he can still get genjutsu gg'd. I know, it's hard to accept with what little we have in terms of genjutsu masters, but it really is that good.


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## LostSelf (Nov 7, 2015)

Makes you wonder how Obito with knowledge was caught in Hiraishin blitz.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

It does, but hey, I am not the writer. It's likely he blitzes a clone, or even a genjutsu Itachi.

I also don't care how many fodder Uchiha's he beat. And we have no idea how powerful Izuna really was.

And chances are they weren't pascifist genjutsu masters like Itachi.


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## thechickensage (Nov 7, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Lol. Same explanations for Tobirama and Minato using the FTG blitz speed bs. With knowledge, 1v1, nobody is getting bltized here.



hiraishingiri is the technique he used to kill Izuna, so FTG doesn't have to be used in a blitz to be effective

Tobirama is 1 of 2 people who have the most experience fighting Uchiha, so I don't see him losing this


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

I don't really care about anything to do with Izuna, he got wrecked and has no feats nor do we know how strong he was. I obviously know he wasn't fodder. But another Madara? Itachi? Shisui? Not likely.


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## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> I don't really care about anything to do with Izuna, he got wrecked and has no feats nor do we know how strong he was.



Well, we can safely assume that he was around Tobirama's level because of portrayal. We don't have any evidence or feats to prove otherwise so it's probably best to go with portrayal.


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## thechickensage (Nov 7, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> I don't really care about anything to do with Izuna, he got wrecked and has no feats nor do we know how strong he was. I obviously know he wasn't fodder. But another Madara? Itachi? Shisui? Not likely.



how is it not likely?  it was the Senju bros vs the Uchiha bros, and they were supposed to be close in talent

is your argument "cuz itachi"   ?


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

Itachi's style was entirely different than the other Uchiha portrayed bar Shisui who was killed and only hyped by word of mouth from the other characters.

His genjutsu was on another level.

It's not Itachi really. How many genjutsu specialists exist in this manga? It's hilarious how underrated it is. The only opponents Itachi fought conveniently weren't going to get killed by genjutsu due to plot.

He spared Kakashi.

He didn't want to kill Sasuke.

It seemed like he didn't partake in much bijuu capturing, hence letting Kisame solo.

Kabuto was immune.


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## thechickensage (Nov 7, 2015)

but his genjutsu is still just based on the eyes.  the same techniques are used to counter it...the same techniques Tobirama perfected for years fighting vs uchiha


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

All he needs is a finger. One moment of pause or hesitation, and you're caught. Naruto's rushed in a few times and got caught if you want to go check for yourself.

Nobody gets caught because he hasn't fought them/ and or he had no reason to catch them. (Sasuke/Kabuto.)

Also good luck fighting Itachi trying to focus entirely on his feet.


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## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

Yes, it's very likely that Tobirama is effective at battling Uchiha without looking into their eyes. With his speed, sensing and Hiraishin it doesn't hinder him as much as it would another character.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Makes you wonder how Obito with knowledge was caught in Hiraishin blitz.



Coz Obito is a retcon.

Tobi acted like he wasn't familiar with Minato, as if he only knew him through rep.

Or if you want some consistency, you may chalk it up to Obito being a 14 year old inexperienced kid who wasn't particularly smart.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

With full knowledge Tobirama doesn't have a chance in hell at tagging Itachi. As usual this is all IMO and I know an army of Tobirama Minato hypers will come in here with there lolftgblitz stuff.

But nobody is getting blitzed 1v1 with full knowledge easily, especially not a character like Itachi.

Without genjutsu Itachi gets decimated. But that's the thing, he IS genjutsu, His entire character is based on it.


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## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Coz Obito is a retcon.
> 
> Tobi acted like he wasn't familiar with Minato, as if he only knew him through rep.
> 
> Or if you want some consistency, you may chalk it up to Obito being a 14 year old inexperienced kid who wasn't particularly smart.



You have to admit though, it was quite clever of Minato to think of using that tactic in the midst of battle. I can see how Obito could overlook it but yeah, I don't think it's really comparable to Tobirama vs Itachi. Obito lost that battle because he was outsmarted, not because Minato could outright blitz him.


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## LostSelf (Nov 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Coz Obito is a retcon.
> 
> Tobi acted like he wasn't familiar with Minato, as if he only knew him through rep.
> 
> Or if you want some consistency, you may chalk it up to Obito being a 14 year old inexperienced kid who wasn't particularly smart.



Obito was familiar with it. He didn't rush against Minato like forgetting about Hiraishin. He ran against him to warp him faster. Minato just proved to be faster than him.

He also was able to control Kyuubi, create havoc on Konoha, separate Minato from Kushina, and get away with his task.

I wouldn't call that inexperienced or dumb.


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## thechickensage (Nov 7, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> With full knowledge Tobirama doesn't have a chance in hell at tagging Itachi. As usual this is all IMO and I know an army of Tobirama Minato hypers will come in here with there lolftgblitz stuff.
> 
> But nobody is getting blitzed 1v1 with full knowledge easily, especially not a character like Itachi.
> 
> Without genjutsu Itachi gets decimated. But that's the thing, he IS genjutsu, His entire character is based on it.



blitzing IS A BIT EASIER when you can just appear behind the person rather than having to rush them, and hiraishingiri always appears in your blind spots

but i agree that itachi's style is mostly genjutsu...


what do you think the #s would be for Tobirama vs Itachi?  30/70 in favor of itachi, or what?

I think it's 80% Tobirama's win


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## Complete_Ownage (Nov 7, 2015)

Thinks Tobirama is going to fall for some fodder finger genjutsu when he is what the second most experienced in fighitng Uchiha in history...The man created jutsus just for that reason, Hiraishin and clones

IF anything Tobirama has a better chance at killing Itachi then Minato due to his expereince, and how the uchiha battle in combat. Tobirama has already seen Itachis entire aresenal in his lifetime(for the most part)


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## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Thinks Tobirama is going to fall for some fodder finger genjutsu when he is what the second most experienced in fighitng Uchiha in history...The man created jutsus just for that reason, Hiraishin and clones



If Tobirama actually gets caught in Genjutsu then he's finished. I believe that he can avoid it in most scenarios but all Itachi needs is a second of Tobirama being out of the loop for him to swoop in and slit his throat or even Amaterasu him from a distance. It's all fine and dandy if Tobirama has experience in cancelling Genjutsu but it doesn't make a difference when he doesn't know that he's in a Genjutsu. Itachi's Genjutsu was powerful enough to toy around with Sasuke, another Sharingan user.


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## Complete_Ownage (Nov 7, 2015)

Itachі said:


> If Tobirama actually gets caught in Genjutsu then he's finished. I believe that he can avoid it in most scenarios but all Itachi needs is a second of Tobirama being out of the loop for him to swoop in and slit his throat or even Amaterasu him from a distance. It's all fine and dandy if Tobirama has experience in avoiding Genjutsu but it doesn't make a difference when he doesn't know that he's in a Genjutsu.



You guys make it sound so easy for someone to land genjutsu. I can say the same... all Tobirama has to do is blitz Itachi off the bat and theres nothing he can do about it. Enough with this instant genjutsu bs. Shit was old 10 years ago


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

It is easy to land genjutsu if you're Itachi.

People need to stop thinking genjutsu is fodder. It's ridiculous, the entire final arc was to stop one from happening, infact it was a larger Tsukiyomi. Itachi's preferred genjutsu,

All it takes is a clone distraction or feint or one slip up from anyone and they are caught.


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## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

Complete_Ownage said:


> You guys make it sound so easy for someone to land genjutsu. I can say the same... all Tobirama has to do is blitz Itachi off the bat and theres nothing he can do about it. Enough with this instant genjutsu bs. Shit was old 10 years ago



I don't think Tobirama's blitzing Itachi from 30 metres, especially when Itachi has full knowledge. Itachi actually utilises Genjutsu a _lot_. He's good at creating openings for him to be able to use Genjutsu. I never said it was 'instant' but Itachi has started off with Genjutsu right off the bat in pretty much every fight. Not gonna happen here since Tobirama starts with full knowledge. Genjutsu is very powerful in that all the caster needs is a critical second or so where their opponent is caught in Genjutsu to strike. That's the reality of Genjutsu, Itachi's not gonna take more than a few seconds to kill someone that's in a Genjutsu, especially not someone as powerful as Tobirama. I'm not saying that Itachi definitely will catch Tobirama in a Genjutsu but it certainly shouldn't be ruled out.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

By the way, enough with this Tobirama Minato instant blitz BS. It doesn't happen 1v1, it's old. Full knowledge? LOL not happening. Take that on outta here.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

Itachі said:


> You have to admit though, it was quite clever of Minato to think of using that tactic in the midst of battle. I can see how Obito could overlook it but yeah, I don't think it's really comparable to Tobirama vs Itachi. Obito lost that battle because he was outsmarted, not because Minato could outright blitz him.



You mean teleporting to a kunai ? 

Obito saw him do that earlier. He just went completely brain dead.



LostSelf said:


> Obito was familiar with it. He didn't rush against Minato like forgetting about Hiraishin. He ran against him to warp him faster. Minato just proved to be faster than him.
> 
> He also was able to control Kyuubi, create havoc on Konoha, separate Minato from Kushina, and get away with his task.
> 
> I wouldn't call that inexperienced or dumb.



There are two explanations to why he didn't expect Minato to teleport to his Kunai.

1 - He wasn't familiar with it.
2 - He is retarded.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

He was also younger, it wasn't long ago he was chilling with old man Madara twiddling his thumbs. Bad writing and Obito being retarded seem to be legit excuses.


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## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You mean teleporting to a kunai ?
> 
> Obito saw him do that earlier. He just went completely brain dead.



Minato used Obito's ability against him, Obito underestimated Minato and thought that Minato would actually try a standard kunai throw on him. It's not the same as just teleporting to a kunai though, when Obito phased through the kunai he thought that the attack was over and that he'd succesfully countered Minato's attack. He let his guard down.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

Itachі said:


> *when Obito phased through the kunai he thought that the attack was over* and that he'd succesfully countered Minato's attack. He let his guard down.



Thats what I'm saying... You have to be really stupid to think Minato wouldn't teleport to that Kunai. Yes Obito wasn't very bright, but I don't think he was that stupid either.

If I were Obito, I'd play my hand exactly the same, only that I'd stay intangible but act like I was trying to warp Minato. Then Minato would teleport on top of me with a rasengan, miss it and then I'd grab and warp him.

He actually did that tactic to Fuu & Torune. He pretended like he was going to punch Fuu, knowing Torune would try to tag him when he was tangible, but he was just baiting them, he remained intangible and Torune ended up hitting Fuu.


I think its just bad writing tbh.


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## LostSelf (Nov 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There are two explanations to why he didn't expect Minato to teleport to his Kunai.
> 
> 1 - He wasn't familiar with it.
> 2 - He is retarded.



He was familiar, in some point in the fight he noted Minato could teleport to Kunais, if i'm not mistaken.

He probably was surprised Minato could escape his warp. That, or Kishi made him retarded, like you said.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> He was familiar, in some point in the fight he noted Minato could teleport to Kunais, if i'm not mistaken.
> 
> He probably was surprised Minato could escape his warp. That, or Kishi made him retarded, like you said.



I'd go with the latter.

Because he completely didn't expect Minato to do that. Obito was like "he teleported to the kunai he threw earlier ?!?"


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## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats what I'm saying... You have to be really stupid to think Minato wouldn't teleport to that Kunai. Yes Obito wasn't very bright, but I don't think he was that stupid either.
> 
> If I were Obito, I'd play my hand exactly the same, only that I'd stay intangible but act like I was trying to warp Minato. Then Minato would teleport on top of me with a rasengan, miss it and then I'd grab and warp him.
> 
> ...



at least you can say that you're smarter than a fictional evil 'genius' 

even if he did expect minato to teleport to it, he might have gotten cocky and thought that he could warp minato before minato could teleport to the kunai.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

I mean he was still a kid back then, and he was getting his way, trolling the fourth hokage and his wife, destroying konoha, ending lives, complete destruction.

The fourth was probably also his first real opponent.

He quickly got sonned is all.

I blame it on being a teenager. LOL.

Back to the main topic though. I don't like downplaying FTG at all, I realize how crazy it is, but with full knowledge and the abilities he has Itachi isn't losing from an opening blitz. You would need something else to convince me he wins this because that is not working.

He isn't immune to genjutsu, you can't say because he's tobirama that he is, he has no panels or feats proving he has any defense against it. That, and Itachi doesn't need eye contact. Itachi is also great in cqc and ninjutsu, good clone/genjutsu feats.


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## Itachі (Nov 7, 2015)

I don't think anybody actually said that Tobirama would blitz straight away. Argus said that Itachi would get blitzed if he got tagged and Complete_Ownage said that Tobirama would blitz to make a point against me, he didn't actually mean it.


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## Ersa (Nov 7, 2015)

Tobirama is experienced with fighting the Sharingan and has the tools to circumnavigate genjutsu and Amaterasu for the most part. It's not easy as Itachi is a better on the fly thinker and has Susanoo but he's gonna de-grade fast from MS use and his terminal illness. Tobirama should win this high difficulty.

With that being said I think Edo Itachi wipes the floor with him, even if he is on the same general level.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 7, 2015)

The thing is though, with full knowledge I don't even think Itachi would activate the MS. Amaterasu get's sensed according to everyone, so why bother? Tsukiyomi needs eye contact, unless he feints Tobirama somehow or provokes him to somehow look into his eyes he can't use it. Susanoo would get teleported. I am not sure how the Yata mirror acts in that situation, it's said to block and repel jutsu. If this works then yeah Itachi wins if he can use Susanoo. That is more than enough to get Tobirama into a genjutsu if he has to go through susanoo to get to him. Yata doing anything is fanfic right now of course as we have no feats to go on.

It's literally the fact he can genjutsu him without eye contact, he doesn't need much time at all, infact people caught in it didn't even realize it at first until Itachi made it clear. (Naruto, Deidara)

Itachi is no slouch fundamentally, outside of the FTG I would argue he can cqc Tobirama just fine, he had no issues with KCM Naruto and Bee. Any suiton wouldn't work period. Normal speed it's arguable who's faster until Tobirama uses FTG.

He could  use the first genjutsu he catches him in to quickly end his life any way he sees fit.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats what I'm saying... You have to be really stupid to think Minato wouldn't teleport to that Kunai. Yes Obito wasn't very bright, but I don't think he was that stupid either.



The entire scene played out in like half a second. Don't be fooled by the slow motion. 

Minato threw the shit at him, and he instinctively let it pass through. He didn't ponder the possibility of Minato jumping to the marker. He thought he was going to be fast enough to stop Minato from jumping period. He just wasn't.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The entire scene played out in like half a second. Don't be fooled by the slow motion.
> 
> Minato threw the shit at him, and he instinctively let it pass through. He didn't ponder the possibility of Minato jumping to the marker. He thought he was going to be fast enough to stop Minato from jumping period. He just wasn't.



"He teleported to the kunai he threw  ?!?!"
instead of 
"damn he is fast!"

I am pretty sure Obito didn't expect Minato to do what he did.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Isn't that what I just said. 

He instinctively passed through a weapon suddenly being hurled at his face and went to grab Minato because he thought he was faster. Then he got blitzed. 

If he had expected Minato to go anywhere, he wouldn't have solidified to touch him.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 7, 2015)

Minato had only used FTG defensively up until that point, so Obito likely believed that that Kunai was meant to be used defensively if Minato's in trouble, but instead he used it while it was still in mid-air. It makes sense honestly considering Minato never used it offensively and even Minato commented on it being a more advanced version of FTG.

 Hell, Minato made the same mistake here afterall:

 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Isn't that what I just said.
> 
> He instinctively passed through a weapon suddenly being hurled at his face and went to grab Minato because he thought he was faster. Then he got blitzed.
> 
> If he had expected Minato to go anywhere, he wouldn't have solidified to touch him.



Again, he could have remained intangible. But despite knowing there was a marked Kunai @ the back of his head, he went for the grab. 

Two explanations for that :

1 - He didn't know Minato could teleport to a moving kunai.
2 - He knew, but he didn't expect Minato to do it. In otherwords he is retarded.


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## Rocky (Nov 7, 2015)

Or three, he thought he was fast enough to warp Minato before Minato went anywhere, and thus was not considering the possibility of Minato warping to that particular kunai or any other kunai. Obito did not fucking know that he was slower than Minato.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 8, 2015)

But then why did he say "he teleported to the kunai he just threw ?!?"

Tobi wasn't surprised that Minato was too fast for him to warp. He was surprised that Minato blindsided him by teleporting to the Kunai behind his back.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

Tf you mean "he wasn't surprised that Minato was too fast for him to warp"..? 

Dog, why the _fuck_ would Obito solidify and say "I win" if he thought Minato was capable of going anywhere?


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

Itachі said:


> why don't you try providing a little substance m8
> 
> i legitimately don't remember him ever copying jutsu with his sharingan, not bothered to try and dig it out



Kishi pretty much said he was bluffing about that ability and never thought about it in the long run.
That's why we barely saw that ability. He said, as the story went on, the sharingan ability got changed.



> A: Kishimoto says that he wanted to do this right off the bat to show off Kakashi’s strength as an example of what an experienced ninja can do in the Narutoverse. This would set some cornerstones down in the manga straight away and make it easier for the audience to put things into perspective. Kobayashi points out that there were many things introduced in this arc that played huge roles right until the end of the series (kekkei genkai, sharingan etc), but Kishimoto just said he was ‘bluffing’ with these things in the beginning [nb: in other words he just made them up without any thought on how to use them in the future]. At the time he was just making these things up for the excitement and suspense, but didn’t pick up on what to do with some of these threads long-term until later. Basically he was making it up as he went. Even with Sasuke’s backstory, at the time of the Wave Arc, all that had been thought out was that Sasuke had an elder brother who had done something bad, and that was it. Kishimoto admits the planning was very hazy at this point. However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances. Kishimoto also says that although he introduced the Sharingan as being able to copy moves, the premise on what the Sharingan could do changed drastically over the course of the storyline.
> 
> Kobayashi comments that the concept of focusing on eyeballs in a Shounen manga is unique, and Kishimoto laughs and agrees. Kishimoto explains that theres a really old story called ‘Take of the Gallant Jiraiya’ that often comes up in Kabuki and the like, where the main character Jiraiya actually has the Sharingan. Kishimoto decided to take the concept of the Sharingan from this story and create the Uchiha clan to give the Sharingan to. And because Kakashi also has a Sharingan despite not being an Uchiha, he wanted this to be a mystery that kept readers interested as to how he got it.


12


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## Six (Nov 8, 2015)

Love how people underrate the hell out of genjutsu. "Tobirama has experience fighting the Uchiha" 
So what? Itachi is not your generic Uchiha. He most likely surpassed Shisui as the best genjutsu user. And even if he didn't, Madara let alone Izuna have not been shown to be on his level of genjutsu mastery. Madara is a ninjutsu type, he likes to absolutely destroy his enemies bodies and break their spirits and what better way than with his large scale ninjutsu?  Izuna is hyped fodder even if he was "equal" to his brother. Itachi's genjutsu >> Madara. How is Tobirama supposed to handle something at a level he's never experienced? He'll treat it like a generic Uchiha genjutsu and regret it. 

If a damn sage who before his sage boost had a 4.5 in genjutsu had to blind himself just to stand a chance, then what the hell is someone who is less powerful than that sage in genjutsu going to do?


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Itachi's genjutsu >> Madara.





That based on what?



> If a damn sage who before his sage boost had a 4.5 in genjutsu had to blind himself just to stand a chance, then what the hell is someone who is less powerful than that sage in genjutsu going to do?



That same guy has his way to make 99% of itachi's Genjutsu to be completely useless, until the asspull Izanami came to the scene. 
Likewise, Tobirama has his ways to deal with the overrated Genjutsu as well. I.E his sensing, speed, and clones.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 8, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Love how people underrate the hell out of genjutsu. "Tobirama has experience fighting the Uchiha"
> So what? Itachi is not your generic Uchiha. He most likely surpassed Shisui as the best genjutsu user. And even if he didn't, Madara let alone Izuna have not been shown to be on his level of genjutsu mastery. Madara is a ninjutsu type, he likes to absolutely destroy his enemies bodies and break their spirits and what better way than with his large scale ninjutsu?  Izuna is hyped fodder even if he was "equal" to his brother. Itachi's genjutsu >> Madara. How is Tobirama supposed to handle something at a level he's never experienced? He'll treat it like a generic Uchiha genjutsu and regret it.
> 
> If a damn sage who before his sage boost had a 4.5 in genjutsu had to blind himself just to stand a chance, then what the hell is someone who is less powerful than that sage in genjutsu going to do?



Pretty much this. Genjutsu gets shit on in this forum because Itachi's never been able to really utilize it. All his opponents conveniently were able to withstand it due to plot or nullifying it (Kabuto.)

Anyone Itachi takes seriously and wants to kill would get genjutsu gg'd, and nobody can prove otherwise and it drives them crazy because they know it's true, it's sad really. He doesn't even need eye contact to fuck you.

Itachi was a pacifist and avoided all the fighting he could, and his genjutsu style speaks for itself. He shits on literally every other genjutsu user in the manga and any genjutsu presently known outside of the Infinite Tsukiyomi which was just a larger version of his. 

Minato and Hashirama are the only ninja I could see even hoping to stand a chance, and that is apparently taboo to say or I will get attacked by 50 fanboys. I don't think even Hashirama could stop it.  Their excuse is "it's Hashirama." Same goes for Madara. Pretty much feats based off all their own battles against each other yet they solo everyone else in the narutoverse. Minato's speed means nothing, Itachi's genjutsu means nothing, etc. Because they are Hashirama and Madara. This is excluding all the Rikudou rinnegan BS by the way before I get attacked by Madara fans. 

He didn't kill Kakashi by choice.

Sasuke I don't need to explain.

Naruto I don't need to explain.

Kabuto was immune.

Anyone else would get royally trolled if he had grounds to physically hurt or kill them.

Who else can we really say was a genjutsu expert that was alive? Tayuya was fodder, and some kage level's had a random gg genjutsu like Danzo and Kabuto and look what happened when they used those, to massive effect because it's a rarity. Danzo only did as good as he did because of Izanagi, same goes for white rage and Koto.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Pretty much this. Genjutsu gets shit on in this forum because Itachi's never been able to really utilize it.



Sorry, but you must really be extremely delusional to come to such a conclusion after all this time.
Genjutsu is overrated as fuck because of the very fact that itachi barely even used it against anyone
worthy. Because of that, people always give him way too much credits against everyone...

Looking at itachi's feats 

1- He did his "Finger Genjutsu" on EARLY part 2 Naruto, who was Chunin-level or so. Some people
go full less-than-smart mode and assume since he got THAT Naruto, therefore he can get any KAGE
right away like he did to Naruto, because what do you know, early part 2 Naruto was CLEARLY a high-level Kage opponent. Really, most of that itachi wanked feats come from getting early part 2 Naruto on a genjutsu.

2- itachi getting Kakashi from part 1. And all of a sudden, that Kakashi is equal to anyone else, and that includes Hashirama, SM Kabuto, 8th Gate Gai....etc etc. Since that Kakashi couldn't take it, everyone else will lose and get in the genjutau exactly like part 1 Kakashi. 

3- oh, Deidara was caught before he even train his eye? That must mean Everyone else will get in the genjutsu as well, just like Deidara.

and so on and so forth. 


Mainly because we haven't see other characters in such a situation, so they are automatically assumed that they have got nothing. 



> heir excuse is "it's Hashirama." Same goes for Madara. Pretty much feats based off all their own battles against each other yet they solo everyone else in the narutoverse. Minato's speed means nothing, Itachi's genjutsu means nothing, etc. Because they are Hashirama and Madara.


you are right here tho. lol


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## Ghoztly (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Sorry, but you must really be extremely delusional to come to such a conclusion after all this time.
> Genjutsu is overrated as fuck because of the very fact that itachi barely even used it against anyone
> worthy. Because of that, people always give him way too much credits against everyone...
> 
> ...



None of what you just said is relevant. None of them can stop genjutsu better than the other. A kage level would still take his genjutsu as hard as a damn genin, they have ZERO defense once it hits them. It attacks in a different way than ninjutsu or taijutsu. You don't just 'kai' Itachi or Tsukiyomi.

He could have killed Kakashi, even Kakashi said so. He CHOSE not to.

I wouldn't expect you to understand since your a Minato fan. You automatically HATE Itachi lol.

Sasuke shit on deidara with genjutsu. Itachi would slaughter him. Effortlessly. AGAIN.

He one paneled a sannin.

Stop, now. You and the other downplayers grasp at straws so much it's funny.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

In that case what makes your argument about itachi any better? We have seen FAR faster characters than him
fall for the FTG, so why not him? Why are you assuming that the Genjutsu will come to play faster than the fastest
jutsu there is? 

You are bringing itachi's feat against other characters who couldn't handle his genjutsu well and say
"You see? OMG! those characters couldn't deal with Genjutsu, therefore Tobirama can't! Sugai itachi-sama!" 

Well, why can't Tobirama's fans bring his feats with FTG against slower opponent and use that exact same logic
of yours against you? Yes, Tobirama has no feats with Genjutsu, nor does itachi have any feats against the fastest
characters either. 



> He could have killed Kakashi, even Kakashi said so. He CHOSE not to.


And? You believe part 1 Kakashi is as powerful as Tobirama? 


> I wouldn't expect you to understand since your one of the fanboys I speak of who continue to downplay Itachi and come off even worse than his fans do.


the speaks of the losers when they can't give a logical answer. So sweat.

I can as easily to criticise you of continuing the overrate itachi and come off even worst than his tards do.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 8, 2015)

You contain zero logic as well and it's all based off personal love/hate for a certain character. If Minato or Tobirama get caught they are dead.

I don't discredit FTG. With full knowledge on it though nobody compotent is getting blitzed right off the bat.

Then Itachi proceeds to genjutsu gg. Just like your FTG gg, thats my answer and I am sticking to it. This FTG nonsense needs to stop. This isn't a full scale battle with multiple enemies/allies and with full knowledge 1v1 it isn't blitzing as an opener. 

Say goodbye to your hero once he blitzes a fake itachi or a clone, genjutsu gg.

If this was Itachi meeting someone he had no knowledge on, I might believe you.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> You contain zero logic as well and it's all based off personal love/hate for a certain character. If Minato or Tobirama get caught they are dead.
> 
> I don't discredit FTG. With full knowledge on it though nobody compotent is getting blitzed right off the bat.
> 
> ...



- You reading comprehension is not the best out there, is it? 



> If Minato or Tobirama get caught they are dead.


and if itachi's nick got stabbed he is also dead, what's your point?
My previous statement was not about this. It was, what makes you think itachi will do his trump card faster than a character who's faster than him, and so is his jutsu faster than Genjutsu? 



> I don't discredit FTG. With full knowledge on it though nobody compotent is getting blitzed right off the bat.


Say that to Obito and A and the rest. 



> Then Itachi proceeds to genjutsu gg.


Then Tobirama proceeds to FTG GG



> Say goodbye to your hero


I don't even like Tobirama. You are putting thoughts in your own head, and your Passion for itachi is blinding you.



> If this was Itachi meeting someone he had no knowledge on, I might believe you.


Likewise with Tobirama. He has full knowledge here, why are you being blind of that part? Because you don't like it?


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## Ghoztly (Nov 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - You reading comprehension is terrible, isn't it?
> 
> 
> and if itachi's nick got stabbed he is also dead, what's your point?
> ...



Every message you post has an undertone of Minato fanboyism, and you know it.

He won't get stabbed in the neck because he knows it's coming and will have a counter ready. And his counter won't be a physical one. 

Genjutsu gg'd, nothing you say about Tobirama can convince me otherwise. His one trick isn't handling someone with full knowledge of how it works unless they are fodder. He also doesn't any any opening for an interception feat or support from allies.

This is 1v1. Itachi knows it's coming, there is no way in hell it works as an opening attack.

Itachi hits people even without eye contact, that's my logic. It can't be avoided, it's not a physical attack or a ninjutsu. Tobirama would be straight fucked up.

I am done debating and responding, Itachi has my vote.

Someone else can carry this on. What part of young B reacting to FTG and having a counter ready do people fail to understand? And he's even better than Tobirama at it. Anyone compotent will expect it and be ready for it. It's not this oneshot jutsu you all want it to be. I swear you all think they can use it just with their own physical bodies and it needs no prep or something. Tobirama is a genius and invented some of the sickest jutsu. Please stop making me downplay him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Tf you mean "he wasn't surprised that Minato was too fast for him to warp"..?


Its clear what I mean.
Reading Obito's reaction, he was surprised @ the fact that Minato teleported to the kunai he just threw, which was behind his back.
Tobi wasn't surprised that he was outsped, he was suprised that he was outplayed.




> Dog, why the _fuck_ would Obito solidify and say "I win" if he thought Minato was capable of going anywhere?



Because he thought they were going to trade hits 
Minato was lunging at him with a rasengan, so he thought he'd be able to warp Minato before rasengan reached him.


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## Itachі (Nov 8, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> He'll treat it like a generic Uchiha genjutsu and regret it.



Tobirama has full knowledge here, he knows of Itachi's Genjutsu prowess and he'll try and avoid it.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Tobi wasn't surprised that he was outsped, he was suprised that he was outplayed.



He was outplayed by being outsped. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because he thought they were going to trade hits. Minato was lunging at him with a rasengan, so he thought he'd be able to warp Minato before rasengan reached him.



Yes, or in other words, he didn't think Minato was going anywhere. 

What are you missing?


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## LostSelf (Nov 8, 2015)

I wonder why Itachi can't defeat Hashirama, because he has no counter to genjutsu.

Genjutsu's not everything, people. Sure, it isn't as easy to avoid as just not looking at people's eyes. Kabuto, who was a sage, had to cover his eyes (we can attribute that to two Uchihas). But if someone's capable of fighting genjutsu here is Tobirama.

And we've seen clones tricking genjutsu clearly. Not to mention Hiraishin, wich can make eye contact almost impossible. Genjutsu is not auto-casted. Itachi should cast it. It's not like you're going to look at his eyes and boom, auto-genjutsu'd.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He was outplayed by being outsped.


No, he was outplayed by being outsmarted and outmanuvered.



> Yes, or in other words, he didn't think Minato was going anywhere.
> 
> What are you missing?



Yes, he didn't, thats why he is pretty damn stupid.

I'd ask you the same thing actually.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 8, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I wonder why Itachi can't defeat Hashirama, because he has no counter to genjutsu.



Sage Mode is a counter to genjutsu, as Kabuto showed.

Hashirama's special god-chakra that lets 10-year-jutsu be used every hour is also likely harder for genjutsu users to manipulate.​


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> outsmarted and outmanuvered.



He was outsmarted & outmaneuvered by being outsped. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes, he didn't, thats why he is pretty damn stupid.



Obito did not know Minato was fast enough to jump away in time. It has nothing to do with intelligence.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Sage Mode is a counter to genjutsu, as Kabuto showed.
> 
> Hashirama's special god-chakra that lets 10-year-jutsu be used every hour is also likely harder for genjutsu users to manipulate.​



Kabuto closed his eyes, and shut them down completely. Hashirama's SM does not do that, nor
has Hashirama shown to fight like that, ever. Otherwise, he would have done so against Madara. 

But I yes, SM >>>>> MS.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 8, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He was outsmarted & outmaneuvered *by being outsped. *



Bold is unnecessary.



> Obito did not know Minato was fast enough to jump away in time. It has nothing to do with intelligence.



No, he simply didn't expect Minato to teleport away because he thought Minato was going to try to him 
Hence his surprise at the end "did he teleport to the kunai he just threw ?!?!"


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2015)

I think you 2 need to agree to disagree. 

-----
I am surprised tho, why does itachi > Oro, makes him automatically stronger than the other 2 (even tho their fighting style is 100% different than each other).

But Tobirama defeating Izuna does not automatically makes him stronger than itachi even tho the similarities between them are much more than the sannin.


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## Rocky (Nov 8, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Bold is unnecessary.



Actually it's what happened. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> No, he simply didn't expect Minato to teleport away because he thought Minato was going to try to hit him



Mhm. 

Obito was trying to go faster than Minato's Rasengan. 

He wasn't worried about the flying kunai or any other kunai because Minato was already in his face with Rasengan.

He did not know that Minato was capable of warping away the moment he solidified.


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## Bonly (Nov 8, 2015)

IMO either Itachi manages to catch Tobi in a genjutsu and then lands a fatal blow(assuming the genjutsu isn't said fatal blow) or Tobi is gonna counter most of what Itachi does either lands a touch on him which will later lead to a GG


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## Sadgoob (Nov 8, 2015)

Vice said:


> It's silly to think that Itachi couldn't copy jutsu, it's one of the Sharingan's basic abilities, but I do agree that it's not within his character to do so because we only have one confirmed instance in the entire manga where he has done so.



Two IIRC. He copied and threw back Kurenai's genjutsu as well, if that counts. But most of Itachi's fights have been against enemies with jutsu he can't copy, either from elemental incompatibility or special requirements.



Complete_Ownage said:


> Tobirama is simply a superior shinobi then Itachi


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## StarWanderer (Nov 9, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Tobirama has to deal with Amaterasu/magatama/totsuka while at the same time watching out for all methods of genjutsu Itachi can employ.
> And he has what ? Some ranged suitons and Hirashin Giri. He is very limited offensively. His only shot is trying to outlast Itachi and run around till he drops dead.
> I'd give this to Itachi more times than not.
> 
> ...



1. He could save SA members from Shinju's branches using Shunshin and physically reacted to Juubito. Furthermore, he is a sensor. Before activating Amaterasu, Itachi has to close his aye and generate chakra. Genjutsu will be ineffective due to Tobirama's experience. Tobirama wins mid-diff at most by outlasting him.
2. Itachi doesnt have a Suiton - that was an illusion created by Itachi's Sharingan, when he used Izanami on Kabuto. However, i do believe that he can copy Tobirama's Suiton. However, that wont help him due to Tobirama's huge speed advantage.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 9, 2015)

Itachi's seal speed shits on practically every other display of seal use we've seen. Sharingan + that he either meats Tobrirama's jutsu with his own or beats it.

Don't forget Itachi has full knowledge on Tobirama and vice versa, the problem is Tobirama's ace is a physical attack that Itachi can avoid.

He would fall into genjutsu quickly or eventually, as Itachi can use it in two ways, eye contact which Tobirama I am 98% sure can avoid, or no eye contact, lol. Either way he is done.


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## StarWanderer (Nov 9, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Itachi's seal speed shits on practically every other display of seal use we've seen. Sharingan + that he either meats Tobrirama's jutsu with his own or beats it.
> 
> Don't forget Itachi has full knowledge on Tobirama and vice versa, the problem is Tobirama's ace is a physical attack that Itachi can avoid.
> 
> He would fall into genjutsu quickly or eventually, as Itachi can use it in two ways, eye contact which Tobirama I am 98% sure can avoid, or no eye contact, lol. Either way he is done.



The knowledge is full. Do you think he will use his Suiton against Mangekyou Sharingan user? With his knowledge and experience?

Nope. He will run around Itachi, exhausting him. And no - Itachi cant dodge a physical attack from someone who could mark Juubito. 

Finger, or any other genjutsu, including Koto, can be dodged. Tobirama is in a higher speed tier + has Hiraishin.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 9, 2015)

He runs around Itachi and then what exactly? Itachi lets him run and waits for him.

Young Bee even reacted and countered Hiraishin when he knew it was coming. Itachi would certainly do so or it's even a clone he ends up Hiraishin blitzing.

Hiraishin was meant for a surprise attack, there is no surprise here 1v1 with knowledge.


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## StarWanderer (Nov 9, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> He runs around Itachi and then what exactly? Itachi lets him run and waits for him.
> 
> Young Bee even reacted and countered Hiraishin when he knew it was coming. Itachi would certainly do so or it's even a clone he ends up Hiraishin blitzing.



If he doesnt have his Susanoo up, he is done, due to Hiraishin and Tobirama's speed. Plu, i do admit right now that there is a chance that Tobirama will use his Suiton against Itachi, exhausting him, although there is a risk in that.

Young Bee has never, ever, reacted to someone as fast as Tobirama. Minato's striking speed and reflexes are inferior to those of Tobirama.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 9, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> If he doesnt have his Susanoo up, he is done, due to Hiraishin and Tobirama's speed. Plu, i do admit right now that there is a chance that Tobirama will use his Suiton against Itachi, exhausting him, although there is a risk in that.
> 
> Young Bee has never, ever, reacted to someone as fast as Tobirama. Minato's striking speed and reflexes are inferior to those of Tobirama.



What...? Tobirama even admitted inferiority to Minato when it came to teleporting...

I respect Tobirama alot, but come on, lol. 

He doesn't have to use suiton against such an advanced sharingan user, Tobirama is a genius, he knows Itachi can counter it. I am just saying that in the event he was foolish enough to attempt sution it would have zero effect.

Itachi won't use Susanoo because Tobirama will troll it. Although I am not sure if the Yata mirror will prevent it from being teleported. It matters little in this battle as we have no idea how it works fully and Itachi won't risk Susanoo due to sick+ teleporting

Itachi will win how he always does, via inescapable genjutsu as soon as he avoids this so called FTG blitz he KNOWS 100% is going to come.

Hiraishin is a monster in sitatuons like full scale battles or catching people unaware, 1v1 with knowledge that it's on the way isn't working on a high kage level opponent.

EDIT: Unless your a moron like Obito and attempt to play chicken with the fastest ninja in existence. Facepalm.


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## StarWanderer (Nov 9, 2015)

> What...? Tobirama even admitted inferiority to Minato when it came to teleporting...



That's the thing - *ONLY* when it came to teleporting aka Hiraishin and Shunshin, which is a mere running speed from point A to point B. But what about movement speed? Reflexes? Tobirama reacted to Juubito and marked him. *KCM* Minato did nothing when had a chance and lost his arm.



> I respect Tobirama alot, but come on, lol.



Respect, or no respect - in movement speed and reflexes department, Tobirama has a lot better feats. In fact, judging from his performance against Juubito, he was faster than even KCM Minato, let alone base Minato. 



> He doesn't have to use suiton against such an advanced sharingan user, Tobirama is a genius, he knows Itachi can counter it. I am just saying that in the event he was foolish enough to attempt sution it would have zero effect.



Itachi can dodge it, so yeah - i agree. It wont do much. 



> Itachi won't use Susanoo because Tobirama will troll it. Although I am not sure if the Yata mirror will prevent it from being teleported. It matters little in this battle as we have no idea how it works fully and Itachi won't risk Susanoo due to sick+ teleporting



Yata wont. Hiraishin is a mere teleportation, a space-time ninjutsu. It is not a direct attack.



> Itachi will win how he always does, via inescapable genjutsu as soon as he avoids this so called FTG blitz he KNOWS 100% is going to come.



A genjutsu against Tobirama, who fought Uchihas his whole life? And since when Itachi can react to Tobirama?



> Hiraishin is a monster in sitatuons like full scale battles or catching people unaware, 1v1 with knowledge that it's on the way isn't working on a high kage level opponent.



It will work, due to Tobirama's speed advantage. He is in a higher speed tier.


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## Trojan (Nov 9, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Hiraishin is a monster in sitatuons like full scale battles or catching people unaware, 1v1 with knowledge that it's on the way isn't working on a high kage level opponent.
> .



itachi is not a kage level. He is Jonin-level as Kishi stated. 




> On Shippuden’s/ Part II’s plot - Kobayashi starts off asking about whether there was framework put in place for the direction of Shippuden’s story. Kishimoto replies that because Naruto and his group were so weak as genin in the first part, so he wanted to make them stronger in the second part. This is especially because he introduced the Akatsiki, who are all Jonin level, so he had to make the main cast stronger too. He also used the timeskip as a chance to change their clothes, since he didn’t like the swirl on the arm of Naruto’s jacket, and also his thick collar in Part 1 got in the way of his face in action scenes. So he drew a small collar and dropped the swirl. He also added the headband with the long tails at the back so they would stand out and flutter during action scenes.


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## Kai (Nov 9, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> That's the thing - *ONLY* when it came to teleporting aka Hiraishin and Shunshin, which is a mere running speed from point A to point B.


Mere running speed from point A to point B is not the only thing that comes with teleporting, and Tobirama is well aware of that fact.


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## Trojan (Nov 9, 2015)

This feats shit all over Tobirama for a hundered years to come


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## StarWanderer (Nov 9, 2015)

Kai said:


> Mere running speed from point A to point B is not the only thing that comes with teleporting, and Tobirama is well aware of that fact.



Shunshin has been used only for travel speed from point A to point B, as far as i know.


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## Trojan (Nov 9, 2015)

yes, the same one u were using.


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## Kyu (Nov 9, 2015)

Shouldn't Tobirama blitz since his clones move faster than KCM users.


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## Itachі (Nov 9, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> 2. Itachi doesnt have a Suiton - that was an illusion created by Itachi's Sharingan, when he used Izanami on Kabuto. However, i do believe that he can copy Tobirama's Suiton. However, that wont help him due to Tobirama's huge speed advantage.



Itachi used Suiton on Kakashi in Part 1 and he technically still used it on Kabuto. Izanami doesn't allow you to do anything, Itachi had to replicate it so we can assume that Itachi knows how to use Suiton: Suiryudan.


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## Trojan (Nov 9, 2015)

Itachі said:


> Itachi used Suiton on Kakashi in Part 1 and he technically still used it on Kabuto. Izanami doesn't allow you to do anything, Itachi had to replicate it so we can assume that Itachi knows how to use Suiton: Suiryudan.



Tobirama has more chakra than itachi. Altho his Water Style feats have been pitiful, but generally speaking, if he puts more chakra into it, chances are he is going to overwhelm itachi in that regard.


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## Itachі (Nov 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Tobirama has more chakra than itachi. Altho his Water Style feats have been pitiful, but generally speaking, if he puts more chakra into it, chances are he is going to overwhelm itachi in that regard.



Yeah, I'm not debating that, I'm just saying that Itachi does have Suiton techniques. But, Itachi is still an Uchiha and so his Chakra is naturally strong, it somewhat makes up for his average reserves.


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## Garcher (Nov 9, 2015)

Itachi is number one


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 9, 2015)

F*ck these forums my god Uchihas are so wanked. Why are they so overhyped it just f*cking annoys me. ITACHI IS OVERRATED. I pray for the day when someone asks "Tobirama vs Itachi" and doest even have to think and say Tobirama is the winner. Madara is the only Uchiha worthy of wank for f*ck sake it just annoys me. Tobirama is stronger than Itachi. Jiraiys is. Orochimaru is. Minato is. Eveyrone is. This shouldnt be up for debate.

*If Tsukuyomi is so good then why did we never hear of Senjus being put in Uchiha Genjutsu. Madara couldnt even get Tsunade in Genjutsu. Tobirama dodges Amaterasu and outlasts Itachi until his bottle of cola amount of stamina drains and then Hiraishingiri one shots him.*

Good lord. Itachi is mid Kage tier with basically all of Akatsuki (bar Hidan and Konan who are High Jonin and Pain who is high Kage) and Tsunade . Why is he even compared to High tier Kages like Part 1 Orochimaru, HM Jiraiya, Tobirama, Pein Rikudo, Nagato Prime, Hiruzen Prime, Base Minato etc. It just annoys me how people wank Itachi.

AND FOR THE F*CKING RECORD, OROCHIMARU IS STRONGER THAN ITACHI!!!!!!!

*Like come on. He may be hax and he's apparently very attractive othrwise he wouldnt be wanked so much, but bitch please, HOW CAN SOMEONE THAT LOST TO HEBI SASUKE BEAT SOMEONE ON THE HIGH KAGE TIER IE HEALTHY OROCHIMARU, HM JIRAIYA,TOBI-F*CKING-RAMA SENJU, PEIN RIKUDO*

I swear to god i'll break my computer if this stupid overwanking of Itachi and blowing up (as in blowing up a balloon) of his petty, insignificant feats, such as only ever hitting immobile people with Totsuka. Its bad enough a bitch could walk up to me and tell me Itachi is stronger than HM Jiraiya or Healthy Orochimaru, but now its getting to the point where people are sickly opening their mouths to be arguing that Sick Itachi could defeat Tobirama. The way i see it, if Itachi can beat Tobirama, so can Hebi Sasuke, Deidara or 90% Kisame (the fake one Killer Bee fought). 

This is so stupid we cant have proper debates on these forums if people dont stop overhyping weak characters. I dont mean to say Itachi is a trash tier shinobi but he has as much chance of defeating Tobirama as he does of defeating Pain, SM Jiraiya, Healthy Oro w/ Edos, Prime Nagato, Prime Onoki etc etc . He is strong, yes, but only to the point where he is a tier above Part 1 Kakashi. Tobirama is close to Hashirama in power. HE DEFEATED IZUNA, WHO IS BASICALY HEALTHY ITACHI WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT. IZUNA MUST HAVE HAD SUSANOO YET HE LASTED ALL BUT 5 MINUTES AGAINST TOBIRAMA ON THE BATTLEFIELD. 

Itachi is too overrated. Im getting sick in my cereal bowl thats how bad it is. The wank is _fierce_.

Im just so angry right now you people dont even understand. (Im not really angry but i need to emphasise my feelings). Stop overhyping Itachi. 

WHY WAS ITACHI NEVER OFFERED THE YONDAIME HOKAGE POSITION LIKE JIRAIYA, OROCHIMARU AND MINATO, PEOPLE WHO ARE STRONGER THAN ITACHI, YET ON PAR WITH/WEAKER THAN TOBIRAMA. LIKE WTF IS GOING ON HERE. STOP OVERHYPING ITACHI.

*SICK ITACHI'S BEST ON PANEL FEAT WAS LOSING TO HEBI SASUKE AND I DONT CARE WHAT ANYONE SAYS. HE WAS NOT HOLDING BACK. I DONT CARE WHAT TOBI AND HIS DUMB ASS SAID. SASUKE SAID ITACHI WAS GOING ALL OUT AND HE WAS THE ONE THAT FOUGHT ITACHI, NOT TOBI, SO ITACHI <<<<< HEBI SASUKE. HEBI SASUKE <<<<<<<<<<<<< 100% OROCHIMARU = JIRAIYA = / < BASE MINATO = / < TOBIRAMA.*

-snip-

Insert the rest here
HIGH KAGE: Tobirama, Part 1 Orochimaru, HM Jiraiya, Pein Rikudo, Prime Nagato,
MID KAGE: Tsunade, Part 2 Orochimaru, Base Jiraiya, Itachi, Kisame, Deidara, Kakuzu
LOW KAGE: Raikage, Mei, Gaara, Rusty Tsunade, Old Hiruzen
Insert the rest here

EVERYONE HAS GOOD ABILITIES. SHARINGAN IS NOT THE BEST ABILITY IN THE WORLD UNLESS YOUR NAME IS MADARA UCHIHA AND THAT IS NOT ITACHI SO DONT ANYONE EVEN TRY AND DARE TO PUT HIM NEAR THE LEVEL OF JIRAIYA LET ALONE F*CKING TOBIRAMA. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE. CANCEL THIS THREAD. TOBIRAMA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ITACHI. SAD THING IS USED TO LIKE ITACHI UNTIL THE WANK STARTED. ITS THE SAME WITH RORONOA ZORO IN ONE PIECE. HE WAS MY NO.2 STRAWHAT UNTIL WANK STARTED HAPPENING.

Tobirama would rape Itachi so bad i cant even explain it. The rape would be SOOOO fierce. Like, this thread shouldnt even exist. Its not up for debate. Tobirama Senju is a more powerful Shinobi than Itachi Uchiha.

Im done now.
_____________________________________________________________________________

Dear moderators,
_Please don't ban me for that little outburst because even you moderators have to appreciate the fact that the masturbation of Itachi Uchiha is now higher than ever before in the history of Naruto debates._


*Spoiler*: __ 



And by the way, Orochimaru > Itachi.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> itachi is not a kage level. He is Jonin-level as Kishi stated.



Thank you sir.

GOD TIER; YOU KNOW WHO IS HERE
KAGE TIER; SANNIN AND ABOVE
JONIN TIER; EVERYONE BELOW SANNIN *SUCH AS ITACHI*
CHUNIN TIER; PART 1 KONOHA 11
GENIN TIER; CE INO AND THE REST OF THE TRASH TIER


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## Complete_Ownage (Nov 9, 2015)

I think that dude needs some help my god


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## Itachі (Nov 9, 2015)

mate, i commend your effort and everything, you can write a lot, but it doesn't change that two thirds of your logic is fucking retarded.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 9, 2015)

Itachі said:


> mate, i commend your effort and everything, you can write a lot, but it doesn't change that two thirds of your logic is fucking retarded.


Tell me what part of it is retarded

I'm interested to hear your answer and i will write as much as i need until people stop idolising Itachi he's a trash ninja that lost to Sasuke. That puts him on level with Deathbed Orochimaru, or even below, since unlike Itachi, Orochimaru had a manga canon opportunity to kill Sasuke. They said Itachi was holding back but if we ignore the author's wank statements and just read we can see that isnt true.

Itachi = / < Deathbed Orochimaru < Sannin fight Orochimaru < KN4 fight Orochimaru < Part 1 Orochimaru at full power no ET < Part 1 Orochimaru with ET.
The only Orochimaru Itachi ever defeated is Deathbed Orochimaru that had just popped out of Sasuke's neck from being sealed there and had no idea where to look.

100% Orochimaru would f*ck Itachi into pieces, *JUST LIKE TOBIRAMA WOULD.*


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## Itachі (Nov 9, 2015)

It's definitely very plausible that Tobirama would win, nobody's saying that Itachi would stomp him so I don't know what sort of wank you're going on about. Stop using coloured text, stop increasing your text size and stop fucking talking about Orochimaru. Try talking about the actual battle itself instead of constantly referring to other shit. If you make your posts more presentable it'll encourage other people to reply to you and not just deem you as a psycho from the offset.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 9, 2015)

Itachі said:


> It's definitely very plausible that Tobirama would win, nobody's saying that Itachi would stomp him so I don't know what sort of wank you're going on about. Stop using coloured text, stop increasing your text size and stop fucking talking about Orochimaru. Try talking about the actual battle itself instead of constantly referring to other shit. If you make your posts more presentable it'll encourage other people to reply to you and not just deem you as a psycho from the offset.



But thats the problem, its not plausible, its definite. Its not up for debate. People will only say Itachi has a chance because they wank him. No one wanks Kakuzu but if they did they would say Kakuzu > Hashirama, just like wankers think Itachi > Tobirama. It makes me sick
*
Spoiler:  




I WILL  USE COLOURED TEXT AND INCREASE MY TEXT SIZE UNLESS A MODERATOR ASKS ME TO REFRAIN FROM DOING THAT. UNTIL THEN, KNOW YOUR PLACE AND STAY IN YOUR LANE.


*

I will refer to Itachi VS Orochimaru AS AN EXAMPLE of the wank that goes on here. The main subject is Tobirama. It shouldnt be because there shouldnt be a topic. Itachi VS Tobirama is like Asuma VS Hashirama.

Im not a psycho and you say im going on about wank that doesnt exist. But tell me, what is your username? Exactly. You have no right to speak to me. Begone!!!

_______

-snip- 

You say i should stop mentioning Orochimaru? You try and stop me lol.

Im not saying Itachi is trash but saying he can beat Orochimaru or Tobirama is the same as saying Kakashi / Hebi Sasuke can defeat Jiraiya or Hashirama. 

This Itachi-is-Kami-Sama-mentality needs to stop.

People wank him like he's more attractive than Princess Love.

This stupidity needs to stop. All the fangirls and fanboys. Im not targeting you (@Itachi) with this post but you know i have  a point with what i say.

Coloured text seems to blind @Itachi and his eyes dont have the mental capacity to read bold/enlarged text so here is a toned version. Hope you like it. 

-snip-


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

Sorry but saying Itachi is a mere Jonin level s just trollling and Kishi never said that , the guy just blized a certain sannin two times in one shot (the first time he beat him witjout even activating MS lol ) .


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Sorry but saying Itachi is a mere Jonin level s just trollling and Kishi never said that , the guy just blized a certain sannin two times in one shot (the first time he beat him witjout even activating MS lol ) .



Really now?

Prove it!

Don't go there with me. Don't you dare go there. Because I WILL MEET YOU THERE.

Itachi did not defeat Orochimaru. Cutting someone's hand does not qualify as a defeat. Otherwise Asura Pein defeated Jiraiya when he shot his arm off. Was that the end of the battle? No. I dont want to sound rude or agressive. Dont take this to offence but may God strike you down with lightning. Curse you for even thinking Itachi could defeat Orochimaru with 3 Tomoe. Hebi Sasuke couldnt do it and he defeated MS Itachi. When i say that i mean that Orochimaru won the physical encounter and his ultimate defeat was his own choice. He could have bitten Sasuke's head off here.


By your logic since Orochimaru > Jiraiya > Pein, 3 Tomoe Itachi >>> Pein. Thats fine. Im not calling you a fanboy but now you know what i mean when i say it.

As for the second fight, Orochimaru couldnt use 
- Edo Tensei
- Kawarimi
- Manda
- and all the rest of hand seal requring jutsu (bar Kawarimi which stems from the Shirohebi, and at the time, Orochimaru was in an extended form of Shirohebi form)


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## thechickensage (Nov 9, 2015)

Also, Tobirama didn't slit the throats of children in their sleep

And didn't katon flame-broil pregnant women

And didn't shuriken the elderly while they were changing their Depends adult diapers


So, clearly, Itachi has more guts than Tobirama

Such Hokage reasoning, very wow, much wisdom


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 9, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Also, Tobirama didn't slit the throats of children in their sleep
> 
> And didn't katon flame-broil pregnant women
> 
> ...



Sorry. Try again chicken sennin

Tobirama had the guts to create a jutsu as terrible and as against the laws of nature, as Edo Tensei but who cares who was more guts. Lee has more guts than Orochimaru, but which one of them is stronger? Jiraiya had more willpower than Pain, but who won the fight. Itachi has nicer hair than Tobirama but he cant defeat him.

If you are stronger than someone because you have more guts then Orochimaru > Itachi because he experimented on babies, killed his teacher, killed another kage, joined akatsuki and kidnapped young men and women for his experiments, which trumps killing a few defencless 2 tomoe Uchiha

King Tobirama Senju Sama who created Orochimaru's favourite jutsu > Prime Nagato > Base Minato > Part 1 Orochimaru > HM Jiraiya > Pein Rikudo > Part 2 Orochimaru > Base Jiraiya > Tsunade > (Hebi Sasuke >) Itachi  > Handicapped Orochimaru ONLY IF THE PLOT REQUIRES IT AS DEATHBED OROCHIMARU ALMOST KILLED THE GUY WHO DEFEATED ITACHI.

ITACHI WANK NEEDS TO STOP NOW!
He did as well against Hebi Sasuke as Deidara did so Deidara = Itachi.


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## Kai (Nov 9, 2015)

Keep the debate civil guys. Especially you Izaya, I've given you a warning from the content I've read on this page. No chill at all.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 9, 2015)

Oh! @LawTrafalgar's here? I remember you! The guy who uses no logic in my debate.





Law Trafalgar said:


> Love how people underrate the hell out of genjutsu. "Tobirama has experience fighting the Uchiha"
> So what? Itachi is not your generic Uchiha.


Bitch please.



> He most likely surpassed Shisui as the best genjutsu user.


Koto > Tsuku. Itachi had to borrow Shisui's technique in order to make it to top tier just like he needed plot induced ass pulls like Totsuka and Izanami to even get close to Sannin tier.



Hussain said:


> That based on what?
> That same guy has his way to make 99% of itachi's Genjutsu to be completely useless, until the asspull Izanami came to the scene.


My point exactly.



> Likewise, Tobirama has his ways to deal with the *overrated Genjutsu *as well. I.E his sensing, speed, and clones.


As per usual, A+ for logic @Lord Hussain-Sama.



> Izuna is hyped fodder even if he was "equal" to his brother.


Itachi is fodder. And you are a fodder debater @LawTraflagar. Izuna > Itachi (who cant do anything with is low stamina and terminal ilness)



> Itachi's genjutsu >> Madara.


My point exactly. 

How is Tobirama supposed to handle something at a level he's never experienced? He'll treat it like a generic Uchiha genjutsu and regret it. 



> If a damn sage who before his sage boost had a 4.5 in genjutsu had to blind himself just to stand a chance, then what the hell is someone who is less powerful than that sage in genjutsu going to do?


Silly fool. SENJUS ARE TRAINED IN DEALING WITH UCHIHAS. WERE ANY OF THE KONOHA JONIN SENJUS WHEN THEY DID THIS.


TOBIRAMA WONT LOOK INTO ITACHIS EYE.

GENJUTSU IS GONE

HE HAS HIRAISHIN

AMATERASU IS GONE

HE IS A BETTER NINJA AND CAN OUTLAST ITACHI

SUSANOO IS GONE

TOBIRAMA IS THE WINNER


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 9, 2015)

Kai said:


> Keep the debate civil guys. Especially you Izaya, I've given you a warning from the content I've read on this page. No chill at all.


YESSIR!

And keep the debates fanboyism free!


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

> Itachi did not defeat Orochimaru. Cutting someone's hand does not qualify as a defeat. Otherwise Asura Pein defeated Jiraiya when he shot his arm off. Was that the end of the battle? No. I dont want to sound rude or agressive. Dont take this to offence but may God strike you down with lightning. Curse you for even thinking Itachi could defeat Orochimaru with 3 Tomoe. Hebi Sasuke couldnt do it and he defeated MS Itachi. When i say that i mean that Orochimaru won the physical encounter and his ultimate defeat was his own choice. He could have bitten Sasuke's head off here.


Wow , how can we change manga's feat like that , sorry but Orochimaru and Itachi's fights are nothing like a surprise murdring attack as did Shurado , they both fight man to man and the manga clearly showed that itachi defeated Orochimaru with only one 3TS Genjutsu , it's canon .

And Orochimaru has access to all his Jutsus , and all his Jutsus are nothing against Itachi's Genjutsu and MS , that's all .

Hebi Sasuke isn't Itachi , their Genjutsu level isn't the same and he hasn't MS a Dojutsu  is at a whole another level compared to 3TS . 

I forgot but Orochimaru lost to Sasuke's Genjutsu lol .


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Wow , how can we change manga's feat like that , sorry but Orochimaru and Itachi's fights are nothing like a surprise murdring attack as did Shurado , they both fight man to man and the manga clearly showed that itachi defeated Orochimaru with only one 3TS Genjutsu , it's canon .


So cutting someone's hand off (someone that can regenerate that hand) = defeat. Okay. 



> And Orochimaru has access to all his Jutsus , and all his Jutsus are nothing against Itachi's Genjutsu and MS , that's all .


Did Orochimaru have access to Edo Tensei here?




> Hebi Sasuke isn't Itachi


Yeah your right.
Hebi Sasuke is not Itachi.
Hebi Sasuke is stronger than Itachi.
Twice he admitted inferiority to FULL POWER Orochimaru. Yeah full power is not what i said, not the weakened one Itachi only beat because the plot allowed him to.



> , their Genjutsu level isn't the same and he hasn't MS a Dojutsu  is at a whole another level compared to 3TS .


So if MS is "a whole another level", then why did this happen?

*Spoiler*: __ 











> I forgot but Orochimaru lost to Sasuke's Genjutsu lol.


Orochimaru lost to his own Jutsu, which Sasuke overpowered using his Curse Seal which Orochimaur had no control over at the time because he didnt have his arms. Sharingan had nothing to do with it.


*Spoiler*: __ 







 Anyway who cares what bad logic hbcaptain is vomiting out like a dying old man, Tobirama > Itachi and that is what matters here. 
Because the next thing he'll be saying is that 3TS 11 year old Itachi > Orochimaru full power healthy with edos out or that 6 year old chunin Itachi with 2 tomoe sharingan > Hashirama, but hbcaptain, you go do that.

hbcaptain - Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi Uchiha. There is nothing you can to about it, just like you cant do anything about Tobirama being stronger than Itachi.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

> So cutting someone's hand off (someone that can regenerate that hand) = defeat. Okay.


Itachi wasn't willing t kill him , if he really did he will cut his head or heart , and Oro will instantly die , that's why Itachi>>Oro .



> Did Orochimaru have access to Edo Tensei here?


Edo Tensei isn't changing anything , P1 Hashirama and Tobirama will be defeated by Amaterasu , then Totsuka will seal Orochimaru as the manga is stating .



> Hebi Sasuke is stronger than Itachi.


lol .



> Orochimaru lost to his own Jutsu, which Sasuke overpowered using his Curse Seal which Orochimaur had no control over at the time because he didnt have his arms. Sharingan had nothing to do with it.


Euh no , Sasuke used his own chakra , he was in base when he overpowered Oro with his Genjutsu . Even if it was the case we are talking about Hebi Sasuke , so....
and CS2 Sasuke offensive Genjutsu<<<Tsukuyomi .

The only thing I agree with is that Tobrama is stronger than Itachi due to stamina .


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## Complete_Ownage (Nov 9, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> -snip-



Funny cause I am one of those people who doesn't wank Itachi. I have already said I believe Tobirama is just a tier above Itachi. There is ways to make ones point without being childish, changing font sizes, colors and etc


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 9, 2015)

Honestly this series would have been so much better if the Uchiha weren't in it with all their asspulls.

I'm starrting to sound like a broken record so ill say this for the last time *hbcaptain*, let me tell you one thing then ask you another.

_Orochimaru only lost to Itachi / said he was weaker than Itachi when he was NOT at full power Itachi_.

*How can you possibly think Itachi is stronger than FULL POWER Orochimaru, who is explicitly stronger than two Shinobi, one of which has defeated Itachi in the manga, and the other of which Itachi has claimed he is weaker than.*


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

Simply because P1 Tobirama<<<Itachi (Amaterasu gg) and Orochimaru can't control P2 Tobirama .

Plus giving Oro dead body is a favoritism .


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Nov 9, 2015)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Funny cause I am one of those people who doesn't wank Itachi. I have already said I believe Tobirama is just a tier above Itachi. There is ways to make ones point without being childish, changing font sizes, colors and etc



really now? intresting!

Begone now



hbcaptain said:


> Itachi wasn't willing to kill him , if he really did he will cut his head or heart , and Oro will instantly die , that's why Itachi>>Oro .



KAWARIMI THO




> Edo Tensei isn't changing anything , P1 Hashirama and Tobirama will be defeated by Amaterasu , then Totsuka will seal Orochimaru as the manga is stating .



IT CHANGES EVERYTHING

SO FIRST A HEART STAB CAN KILL AN IMMORTAL MAN

AND NOW AMATERASU SOLOES IMMORTAL ZOMBIES

SEE WHAT I MEAN WHEN I SAY THERE IS SO MUCH ITACHI WANK


> lol .


Lol what? Hebi Sasuke defeated Itachi didnt he?




> Euh no , Sasuke used his own chakra , he was in base when he overpowered Oro with his Genjutsu . Even if it was the case we are talking about Hebi Sasuke , so....
> and CS2 Sasuke offensive Genjutsu<<<Tsukuyomi .


Euh yes, I dont give a dan cos he beat him anyway. Itachi is stronger on paper, but in a real fight, things didnt work in his favour. Pein > SM Naruto. Jiraiya > Pein. Orochimaru > Itachi. Yet who won all three of those fights? Anything can happen if the scenario allows it so yeah maybe on a regular basis Itachi > Hebi Sasuke but whatever tho cos Itachis stilll = Deidara. Deidara < Sasori. My man Sasori < Shodai Otokage: Orochimaru Sama



> The only thing I agree with is that Tobrama is stronger than Itachi due to stamina .


 So you can comprehend that much. Thats a start but ill whip you into shape in no time and have you belive Orochimaru > Itachi too. Itll take a lot of work but if we work together we can get there.

Orochimaru's stamina >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Itachi's stamina.

.




hbcaptain said:


> Simply because P1 Tobirama<<<Itachi (Amaterasu gg) and Orochimaru can't control P2 Tobirama .
> 
> Plus giving Oro dead body is a favoritism .



I hate this argument. Forget the war arc and think of everything before that.

IN THE ONE FIGHT WE SAW OROCHIMARU USE EDO TESNEI IN HE CAME PREPARED WITH EDOS SET UP SO WHY WOULDNT HE EVERY FIGHT? ITS LIKE SAYING ITACHI LEAVES TOTSUKA AT HOME OR TENTEN GOES INTO A BATTLE WITH NO SCROLLS OR SASORI COMES WITHOUT PUPPETS OR DEIDARA COMES WITHOUT CLAY. ITS JUST SILLY, THIS ARGUMENT.

*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				richmass said:
			
		

> Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi.
> Guys, let's just get over the title for a second.. I know half of you are throwing up right now and the other half are masturbating furiously.
> 
> I believe that Orochimaru was stronger than Itachi. Not that he could beat him. But that he is generally stronger than him.  Why do I think this? Because of Itachi's fight against Sasuke.
> ...





WE KNOW TOBIRAMA > ITACHI AND NOW WE ALSO KNOW THAT OROCHIMARU > ITACHI!
ANYONE BEG TO DIFFER?


*Spoiler*: __ 





THIS IS > ITACHI (DODGE TOTSUKA, SKIN SHED TO EVADE AMATERASU, PARTNER METHOD OUT OF GENJUTSU)


----------



## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

Izaya said:
			
		

> KAWARIMI THO


Wow now Kawrimi can regenerate brain and heart lol .




> IT CHANGES EVERYTHING
> 
> SO FIRST A HEART STAB CAN KILL AN IMMORTAL MAN
> 
> ...


Orochimaru isn't immortal that's just a fanfic , he is just using some regenerating Jutsu that' all , and also he can't be afraid from age since he can change corps all 3 years .
Amaterasu burn for 7 days and 7 nights , if Hashirama and Tobirama are blitzed , they will still burned to nothing and returning to their form continualy , they can't do anything about that .





> Euh yes, I dont give a dan cos he beat him anyway. Itachi is stronger on paper, but in a real fight, things didnt work in his favour. Pein > SM Naruto. Jiraiya > Pein. Orochimaru > Itachi. Yet who won all three of those fights? Anything can happen if the scenario allows it so yeah maybe on a regular basis Itachi > Hebi Sasuke but whatever tho cos Itachis stilll = Deidara. Deidara < Sasori. My man Sasori < Shodai Otokage: Orochimaru Sama


You are the only one who is claiming that Jiraya is stronger than Pain and that Pain is stronger than Itachi , and Naruto needed , 6 elite toads+Katsuyu informations+Hinata+KN0+Minato reparing the seal . Without knowledge he will defait 2/3 Pain at most and will lose . And I forgot  Tendo power wasn't operative in their fight lol , basically SM Naruto fought just 10% Pain since , deva path is at a whole another level compared to the others .





> Orochimaru's stamina >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Itachi's stamina.


Yeah Orochimaru's stamina is better but he is not a Bijuu and plus his Jutsu require an incredible amount of chakra for each one .


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Wow now Kawrimi can regenerate brain and heart lol .


One chakra scalpel to the neck can kill you as stated by Kabuto and Tsunade. Orochimaru took 5 to the neck in that Kabuto flashback, and he used Kawarimi. Orochimaru's body isnt his true body, the white snake is, so if you shoot him in the brain or puncture his heart or internally behead him (i.e. chakra scalpel) it wont kill him for good. And even if Itachi did do some of the fanfic stuff you said he can, the Great White Serpent (Oro's true body) just comes out and uses Neurotoxin GG.



> Orochimaru isn't immortal that's just a fanfic , he is just using some regenerating Jutsu that' all , and also he can't be afraid from age since he can change corps all 3 years .
> Amaterasu burn for 7 days and 7 nights , if Hashirama and Tobirama are blitzed , they will still burned to nothing and returning to their form continualy , they can't do anything about that .


belittle him and downplay him if it makes you feel better but Orochimaru is immortal. (Resilience/Fushi Tensei/Kawarimi/White Snake Body can survive being chopped up which normal snakes cannot do)


> You are the only one who is claiming that Jiraya is stronger than Pain and that Pain is stronger than Itachi , and Naruto needed , 6 elite toads+Katsuyu informations+Hinata+KN0+Minato reparing the seal . Without knowledge he will defait 2/3 Pain at most and will lose . And I forgot  Tendo power wasn't operative in their fight lol , basically SM Naruto fought just 10% Pain since , deva path is at a whole another level compared to the others .


I didnt claim Jiraiya > Pain. Kishimoto did.

*Spoiler*: __ 











> Yeah Orochimaru's stamina is better but he is not a Bijuu and plus his Jutsu require an incredible amount of chakra for each one .


You dont have to a Bijuu to outlast Itachi. Sasuke managed it and he has less chakra than Orochimaru and by the way the manga has proved *Orochimaru has more chakra than Tsunade. The manga has also proved tsunade has more chakra than the Raikage.*

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Raiakge has Bijuu level chakra! AND FOR THE RECORD, WE HAVE NEVER SEEN OROCHIMARU RUN OUT OF CHAKRA ON PANEL (EXCEPT FOR WHEN HIS HOST BODY GOT SICK) UNLIKE TSUNADE AND RAIKAGE WHO WE HAVE SEEN GET EXHAUSTED.*


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Wow now Kawrimi can regenerate brain and heart lol .
> .



Very stupid thing to say considering Orochimaru spits out a new body that has a new heart and a new brain separate from the one that the old body has.


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 9, 2015)

It doesn't matter how much Uchiha blood he's spilled, they weren't Itachi's and SURE AS HELL weren't Madara's. They were fodder.

Itachi's fighting style is different, he doesn't need you to look into his eyes rendering Tobirama's experience useless.

And fighting Itachi by only watching his feet is suicide to boot. 

Done responding in this thread.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 9, 2015)

So if his head was wrecked , Orochimaru can thing and send to his body the order to use Kawarimi while he has no brain , the stupid one is you .


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Nov 9, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> So if his head was wrecked , Orochimaru can thing and send to his body the order to use Kawarimi while he has no brain , the stupid one is you .


First of all i didnt call you stupid. I called what you said stupid. But you are immature so i dont expect you to understand anyway. Who tf do u even think you're speaking to anyway? Itachi d*cksucker. I thought the mods warned you for being rude like that ... Silly rabbit.

i was referring to Orochimaru if he gets his heart pierced

If his head gets cut off the white snake form comes out then neurotoxin gg 

As for cutting off people's heads, this is from an Itachi VS Tsunade thread on Narutobaseforums


> Many of you have stated that Tsunade would be put under genjutsu and then Itachi would behead her in a moment.
> While this might be a possibility,* the only time we have seen a beheading is in Hidan and Kakuzu Arc.
> And that was because Hidan was standing still. *
> *
> ...



Show me panel feats of Itachi ever beheading someone? Yeah didnt think so.

Orochimaru trolls Izanami since he accepts himself and isnt trying to be another person. He trolls Kotoamatsukami because it doesnt work in combat situations that most would say it does. He trolls Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu with Oral rebirth. He trolls Totsuka by evasion or just trolling that with Kawarimi again. Whereas we have Manda, who can shed his skin to evade Amaterasu, can be snapped out of genjutsu via Orochimaru isng the partner method, and has shown feats that equate to reacting to and dodging Totsuka. He can attack from underneath Susanoo where the sun dont shine. Manda > Itachi. Thats a proved fact but anyway ...


----------



## StarWanderer (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> yes, the same one u were using.



Nope, you dont.


----------



## StarWanderer (Nov 11, 2015)

Itachі said:


> Itachi used Suiton on Kakashi in Part 1 and he technically still used it on Kabuto. Izanami doesn't allow you to do anything, Itachi had to replicate it so we can assume that Itachi knows how to use Suiton: Suiryudan.



Anything that happened in Izanami wasnt real - it was an illusion.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Nope, you dont.


Yup, I do. 


StarWanderer said:


> Anything that happened in Izanami wasnt real - it was an illusion.



It is not a far fetched idea to think itachi can use Water Dragon. It's nothing special anyway.


----------



## Itachі (Nov 11, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Anything that happened in Izanami wasnt real - it was an illusion.



If I remember correctly, the setup of it isn't an illusion since the user has to actually replicate it. I'm not too sure though, I'm pretty fuzzy on it.


----------



## Yongest Kenpachi. (Nov 11, 2015)

a sick Itachi? lol Tobirama is just going to tell him to go home


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2015)

Itachі said:


> If I remember correctly, the setup of it isn't an illusion since the user has to actually replicate it. I'm not too sure though, I'm pretty fuzzy on it.



It doesn't change anything whether it was an illusion or not. We know for a fact that Kabuto couldn't seperate the genjutsu experience from the real thing until he realized he was going through a loop. 
So in that sense, it was the exact replication of reality, whatever happened in it was within the RL capabilities of the characters.


----------



## Yoko (Nov 11, 2015)

Suiton dragon falls within his capabilities.  The one he used wasn't even a big one either, compared to Zabuza's and Mei's which makes sense considering his chakra pool.  It aligns with his other Suiton feats as well - Itachi used Suiton drill and Suiton wall back in Part I, both of which are B-ranked jutsu, just like Suiton dragon.  

Worse comes to worst, he could just copy any of Tobirama's in this match-up, as Sharingan has been stated to be capable of copying up to the A-rank.  And it's not like this isn't proven either - against Zabuza, Kakashi was able to copy the A-ranked Suiton funnel jutsu.


----------



## OutlawJohn (Nov 11, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It doesn't change anything whether it was an illusion or not. We know for a fact that Kabuto couldn't seperate the genjutsu experience from the real thing until he realized he was going through a loop.
> So in that sense, it was the exact replication of reality, whatever happened in it was within the RL capabilities of the characters.



This is so false it's ridiculous. You're literally giving Itachi the power to read minds and copy jutsu from within the brain of his opponents.


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 11, 2015)

Any handsigns would be read by Itachi fairly quickly, however Tobirama cannot read his, even a 3T sharingan couldn't, he was shown he was very talented at executing several justsu quickly and making Kakashi tactically retreat, even using damn shuriken as a distraction. 

Without a sharingan someone with normal vision would be screwed.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

Why would Tobirama care about hand-seals when his main jutsu does not require any! 



> even a 3T sharingan couldn't, he was shown he was very talented at executing several justsu quickly and making Kakashi tactically retreat, even using damn shuriken as a distraction.



comparing Tobirama to part 1 Kakashi. 

Sasuke's MS couldn't follow A's speed, and yet Minato saw him coming with his eyes.


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Why would Tobirama care about hand-seals when his main jutsu does not require any!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's not only Kakashi, it's a Sharingan, and a full 3T one. Nice try though.

MS does not increae the sharingans base abilities, all it does is grant them new abilities until someone on this board proves otherwise. 

Typical FTG wankist thinking thats all they need to instawin a fight. And with knowledge on it? Lol please.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

So you're saying 3T Sharingan is better than the MS? 



> Typical FTG wankist thinking thats all they need to instawin a fight.


Who said anything about that?



> And with knowledge on it? Lol please.


Have you ever even read the manga? Like EVER?


----------



## Rocky (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain is right, actually. I reread Sasuke vs Raikage last night, and A pretty much left Sasuke's vision. 

That didn't happen with Minato, so that'd put his perception above Sasuke's (and Kakashi's).


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> So you're saying 3T Sharingan is better than the MS?
> 
> 
> Who said anything about that?
> ...



3T=MS when it comes to what the shringan originally is capable of. The precog, copying, etc. The MS doesn't increase these, at all. Otherwise they would have it activated the entire fight. It's a waste of chakra. It's only used for their new jutsu.

You implied it. Stating it was his main jutsu and not crediting his other capabilities like Suiton etc. and implying his FTG would be enough to beat Itachi, and I am saying it isn't. Simple. Infact I don't think Tobirama can beat Itachi in any setting. But I won't bother going into that.

How are you following something that has left your field of vision?

You guys astound me. Why do I come into these threads?


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

> [=Ghoztly;54707472]3T=MS when it comes to what the shringan originally is capable of. The precog, copying, etc. The MS doesn't increase these, at all. Otherwise they would have it activated the entire fight. It's a waste of chakra. It's only used for their new jutsu.


Ok? How does that change the fact that Sasuke couldn't see A and Minato did? By your logic, since Sasuke's eyes are obviously better than Minato's, the latter shouldn't have been able to do so. 



> You implied it. Stating it was his main jutsu and not crediting his other capabilities like Suiton etc. and implying his FTG would be enough to beat Itachi, and I am saying it isn't. Simple. Infact I don't think Tobirama can beat Itachi in any setting. But I won't bother going into that.


I did not imply anything. I just said his main jutsu does not require hand-seals. Thus, that ability is more or less useless. Tobirama's Water style jutsu are pathetic anyway and he has no actual feat with good ones. Since his character was reteconned in part 2, his main fighting style is completely based on FTG. People still think too much of his hype in part 1 when he was praised for being able to use water jutsu without a source, but that thing is long gone. 



> How are you following something that has left your field of vision?
> You guys astound me. Why do I come into these threads?]



What does that have to do with your ridiculous claim about FTG "with knowledge? lol"

Izuna, who was the strongest in the clan after madara and who has the MS was beaten by it WITH KNOWLEDGE. 

Obito, who is the 3rd strongest uchiha to have ever lived was beaten by it WITH KNOWLEDGE. Even as the JJ, he was taken off-guard by it several times, it's ridiculous. It was a critical jutsu in both fights (with Obito and Madara), trying to put it down with those pitiful tries is meaningless. 

Minato ended an entire God-damn World War with it for crying out load. 
I guess they all must have not even heard of the jutsu, huh?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Hussain is right, actually. I reread Sasuke vs Raikage last night, and A pretty much left Sasuke's vision.
> 
> That didn't happen with Minato, so that'd put his perception above Sasuke's (and Kakashi's).



Raikage ran straight into Minato, how can he leave his vision ?


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 11, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Raikage ran straight into Minato, how can he leave his vision ?



Rocky knows his opinion is radical when he starts his post with Hussein is right about some aspect of Minato. He's been agreeing with Hussein, Munboy, Turrin, etc. more and more often. Perfect.​


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> Rocky knows his opinion is radical when he starts his post with Hussein is right about some aspect of Minato.​





anyway
Sasuke was looking at the Raikage
Kakashi realizes

and then, 
Kakashi realizes


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Ok? How does that change the fact that Sasuke couldn't see A and Minato did? By your logic, since Sasuke's eyes are obviously better than Minato's, the latter shouldn't have been able to do so.
> 
> 
> I did not imply anything. I just said his main jutsu does not require hand-seals. Thus, that ability is more or less useless. Tobirama's Water style jutsu are pathetic anyway and he has no actual feat with good ones. Since his character was reteconned in part 2, his main fighting style is completely based on FTG. People still think too much of his hype in part 1 when he was praised for being able to use water jutsu without a source, but that thing is long gone.
> ...



Out of all the most active posters, I think you're the poster I tend to feel nothing for when I read your posts, entirely irrelevant.

And I was talking about A leaving Sasuke's field of vision, if he charged directly at Sasuke the sharingan would have seen him. Whether or not he could do anything about it is up to his body and reflexes, if his body couldn't keep up with his eyes he's finished.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 11, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Raikage ran straight into Minato, how can he leave his vision ?





Rocky said:


> It doesn't matter if he tries to go around you or runs right at you. If your eyes can't track the speed, they can't track the speed.





Sadgoob said:


> He's been agreeing with Hussein, Munboy, Turrin, etc. more and more often.​



Idk bro. Turrin thinks Old Hiruzen can take Raikage.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> anyway
> Sasuke was looking at the Raikage
> Kakashi realizes
> 
> ...



As I pointed out to Rocky, Sasuke says that enemies are easier to track when they move in a straight line.

A didn't move in a straight line toward Sasuke. A did move in a straight line toward Minato. So Minato had it easier, according to Sasuke's statement. The two situations aren't comparable.​


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## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

> Out of all the most active posters, I think you're the poster I tend to feel nothing for when I read your posts, entirely irrelevant.


I don't need you feeling babydoll. Keep them to yourself. It would be more usefull if you can focus on arguments
than your affection, ok? Maybe if you are girl tho... 



> And I was talking about A leaving Sasuke's field of vision, if he charged directly at Sasuke the sharingan would have seen him. Whether or not he could do anything about it is up to his body and reflexes, if his body couldn't keep up with his eyes he's finished.



ok, so if A is moving directly at Minato, it's normal to see A. However, if itachi is doing his hand-seals in front of
Tobirama, the latter won't be able to see him because God knows that itachi's hand-seal is faster than A's V2.

That's what you're trying to say?


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I don't need you feeling babydoll. Keep them to yourself. It would be more usefull if you can focus on arguments
> than your affection, ok? Maybe if you are girl tho...
> 
> 
> ...



Tobirama isn't Minato.

And for once you're correct, that is what I am saying.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> As I pointed out to Rocky, Sasuke says that enemies are easier to track when they move in a straight line.
> 
> A didn't move in a straight line toward Sasuke. A did move in a straight line toward Minato. So Minato had it easier, according to Sasuke's statement. The two situations aren't comparable.
> 
> A also had like 15-20 years less time to perfect his shunshin jutsu back then, just sayin'. Kind of like how Hanzo probably wasn't stronger than the modern day Sannin as opposed to 15-20 years ago.​



Minato was given A his back here, and he still did it. 
Link removed

- A after 17 years still said only Minato (and then Naruto) dodged his speed.
and they were in pease zoon during those extra years, just saying. Because it did not do Naruto
and Sasuke much justice if you think more years makes you automatically better off. 



> Kind of like how Hanzo probably wasn't stronger than the modern day Sannin as opposed to 15-20 years ago.


We were told that Hanzo lost his "faith" which made him gets weaker. No such statement or even implication was said about A. 
Just like how Tsunade also got weaker after the 2nd War and she was barely keeping up with Kabuto because she was out of shape.


---------


> And for once you're correct, that is what I am saying.



Well, if you think itachi's seals are faster than A, then I guess I am done with you.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> anyway
> Sasuke was looking at the Raikage
> Link removed
> 
> ...





Rocky said:


> Idk bro. Turrin thinks Old Hiruzen can take Raikage.



Raikage moved sideways, moving outside Sasuke's field of view, while Sasuke was busy casting Amaterasu.
He ran straigth into Minato, staying in his field of view.
Not rocket science fellas


----------



## Rocky (Nov 11, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> A didn't move in a straight line toward Sasuke. A did move in a straight line toward Minato.



Raikage moved in a straight line (sideways) out of Sasuke's vision. Then he circled him. 

This argument is dumb. You are trying to pitch that the Raikage's "fastest punch" is easier to track than the flicker he used on Sasuke. 



Sadgoob said:


> A also had like 15-20 years less time to perfect his shunshin jutsu back then, just sayin'.





...and you scold me for the Munboy-Turrin arguments.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Tobirama, the latter won't be able to see him because God knows that itachi's hand-seal is faster than A's V2.



The difference being that Tobirama only has to notice movement from an 8 foot, 400lb chocolate man covering 20 meters.

Itachi's hand seals, on the other hand, are much smaller and cover a much smaller distance. They're thus much harder to notice.​


Rocky said:


> ...and you scold me for the Munboy-Turrin arguments.



I'm not going to make it a major argument because, frankly I don't have to in order to win this debate, but you know there's validity in saying that A likely improved somewhat over 20 years.

Wasn't it you who was arguing that Gai only unlocked the 6-8th Gates over the time skip? No matter. Huge leaps of progress happen in much smaller spans of time.​


Rocky said:


> Raikage moved in a straight line (sideways) out of Sasuke's vision. Then he circled him.



The context of Sasuke's statement was said after Bee charged directly at him. Straight at him. Yeah, you can play semantics in order to keep your opinion, but I'm not going to indulge it.

The common sense fact of the matter is that it's easier to keep my eyes on something that never leaves my field of vision as opposed to something that does. So that's all I'll say about that.​


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 11, 2015)

He's honestly trying to say Minato's eyes are better than Itachi's sharingan.

This might be the first and only person I ever ignore/block on this forum.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 11, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> He's honestly trying to say Minato's eyes are better than Itachi's sharingan.





In essence, this is what A did to Sasuke.

You think A can do this to Minato?


----------



## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

@Sadgoob

regardless of itachi's handseal speed, countering whatever attack he is going to do should be a problem to Tobirama. 

1- Kakashi might not have seen the seals, BUT he was still able to see the attacks coming AND countered them perfectly. Even tho he was using seals.

2- Even IF we assume that Tobirama for God knows reason is slower than Kakashi in term of preforming the seals to counterattack itachi's attacks, his FTG will work by his thought. That will be enough to go elsewhere. 

Seeing how Kakashi, Hebi Sasuke...etc did not have any problem, or rather enough to make them hopeless against that, I don't see why should we assume that Tobirama would. That does not make much sense.


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> In essence, this is what A did to Sasuke.
> 
> You think A can do this to Minato?



Yup


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> In essence, this is what A did to Sasuke.
> 
> You think A can do this to Minato?



You're wrong. Sasuke whipped his head in the proper direction against A. He saw A move, just like Minato did. 

Arguably sooner than Minato did. A just wrapped around Sasuke too fast for him to follow him as he left his field of vision.

Because Sasuke doesn't have Hiraishin, he threw up an Amaterasu shield instead of teleporting out of danger.

And yeah, I don't think Minato would be able to track A making a circle around him any better than A did.

Also, another _*huge*_ difference aside from the circular versus straight attack pattern is that Minato _knew the shunshin was coming_.​


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 11, 2015)

Hussain said:


> regardless of itachi's handseal speed, countering whatever attack he is going to do should be a problem to Tobirama.



Yeah, I agree. He can react to the ninjutsu itself, which travels slowerthan v2 A (except the v4 Totsuka, _*Rocky*_). 

I'm just saying it's probably easier to notice v2 A on the move than Itachi's hands, not because the latter are faster, but because they're much smaller and cover much smaller distances.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2015)

Now you see, Minato didn't have to track Raikage's movement with his eyes, as he was coming @ him in a straight line. Raikage was always in Minato's field of view.

In Sasuke's case, he would have to track him with his eyes and then head to be able to keep him in his field of view.

Two situations can't be compared.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 11, 2015)

Plus Sasuke had just been pile-driven into cement and used stacked eye-crippling technique. Not exactly in the best form to track. He also didn't know about the lightning shunshin, unlike Minato.​


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## Rocky (Nov 11, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Yup



Then Minato would have been dead before Naruto was born. 



Sadgoob said:


> You're wrong. Sasuke whipped his head in the proper direction against A. He saw A move, just like Minato did.



I agree that Sasuke perceived some semblance of Raikage taking off, but he threw up at that fire shield because when he looked to the left, A wasn't there. 

The bottom line is that MS Sasuke couldn't keep up with A to the point that he needed a fire shield to cover all directions. Yet Minato fights against A multiple times, is considered superior, and you give me "nah, he's just base Gai with Hiraishin."

Give me a break. If Minato was as slow as you say he is, then A's plan would've  worked and he'd have broken Minato in half.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2015)

Exactly, he was trying to use Amaterasu.

Sasuke was attacking, and A was reacting.

Inn Minato's case, A was attacking and Minato was reacting.


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## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> Plus Sasuke had just been pile-driven into cement and used stacked eye-crippling technique. Not exactly in the best form to track. He also didn't know about the lightning shunshin, unlike Minato.​



That was Minato's first time encounter with A & B. JS.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Minato fights against A multiple times, is considered superior, but nah, "he's just base Gai with Hiraishin."
> 
> Give me a break. If Minato was as slow as you say he is, then A's plan would've  worked and he'd have broken Minato in half.



First off, Base Gai isn't slow. He's mildly less reflexive than MS Sasuke, but A didn't exactly outplay a peak MS Sasuke there. Sasuke was lessened by being _mid-Amaterasu_, lacking knowledge, etc. 

Minato just needs to have the faintest detection of a threat coming at him, and then he can instantly re-positon, throwing his enemy off. This is bad news for A because the v2 shunshin is taxing. 

Your conception of Minato having v2 speed on top of Hiraishin is what's ridiculous to me. I should be the one saying give me a break. Minato doesn't have any boosts aside from Hiraishin.

And yeah, Minato was considered superior to A, but he never did manage to kill or maim him, did he? The first lasting injury A ever seemed to sustain was from Sasuke taking his arm.



​


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## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Then Minato would have been dead before Naruto was born.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fixed it for ya.


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## Ghoztly (Nov 11, 2015)

I figured you would try and leave B out of this since he reacted and had a counter to Hiraishin.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 11, 2015)

Are you saying that Base Gai is slow ?


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## Rocky (Nov 11, 2015)

No        .


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## Language of Life (Nov 11, 2015)

Tobirama adds Itachi's hair to his Uchiha mane


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 11, 2015)

Base Gai with FTG is certainly superior to Base Minato.

 Don't be kidding yourself Rocky.


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## Rocky (Nov 11, 2015)

Top kek.

You know what my go-to response is. Hmu when base Gai perceives & responds to the v2 flicker from five meters.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Top kek.
> 
> You know what my go-to response is. Hmu when base Gai perceives & responds to the v2 flicker from five meters.



 The guy can perceive surrounding objects when he moves at speeds that distorts space itself.


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## Rocky (Nov 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> The guy can perceive surrounding objects when he moves at speeds that distorts space itself.



Yeah, in the 8th Gate. 

8th Gate Gai with or without Hiraishin >>> Minato.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Yeah, in the 8th Gate.
> 
> 8th Gate Gai with or without Hiraishin >>> Minato.



8th Gate doesn't increase nerve transmission speed.

 It merely increases one's physicality and reaction speed (due to improved speed) substantially.

 If you want actual feats, Base Gai literally almost hit a more experienced Obito who displayed immense skill evading hits from multiple different directions when Minato couldn't even come close without nearly being grabbed. He actually needed Hiraishin if he wanted to physically compete with a less experienced Obito.


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## Trojan (Nov 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> 8th Gate doesn't increase nerve transmission speed.
> 
> It merely increases one's physicality and reaction speed (due to improved speed) substantially.
> 
> If you want actual feats, Base Gai literally almost hit a more experienced Obito who displayed immense skill evading hits from multiple different directions when Minato couldn't even come close without nearly being grabbed. He actually needed Hiraishin if he wanted to physically compete with a less experienced Obito.



Minato (alone) Vs Obito (and flooring the living fuck out of him)

is worst than  Gai who with BM Naruto, BM B, and MS Kakashi helping him Vs Obito, and still not even being able to touch him? 



> Base Gai literally almost hit a more experienced Obito



I guess Base Gai is better than Gate Gai who couldn't touch Obito even though he was attacking from his back.


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## Rocky (Nov 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> 8th Gate doesn't increase nerve transmission speed.







NarutoX28 said:


> Base Gai literally almost hit a more experienced Obito who displayed immense skill evading hits from multiple different directions when Minato couldn't even come close without nearly being grabbed



Gai:

Was blocked by Obito's Gunabi.
Deflected thrown weaponry.
Whiffed on an intangible Obito with his Nunchaku.
Kicked it back into Obito, but whiffed again.
Anticipated & blocked the Gunabi behind-the-back.

Minato:

Whiffed on his kunai-lunge & was bound.
Teleported out of the chain.
Whiffed on the kunai thrown at Obito's head.
Responded to Obito's attempt to grab him with Hiraishin.
Used Rasengan on Obito.

Minato did _far_ better. It isn't even close.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Gai:
> 
> Was blocked by Obito's Gunabi.
> Deflected thrown weaponry.
> ...



 I don't understand your point. All of the performances that actually enabled Minato to have done something was all because of FTG. If you really want to prove that Minato is essentially superior to Base Gai and has FTG on top of that, then you have to prove that Minato is on a higher level than Gai without FTG.

 Gai, with mere reflexes alone managed to surpass Obito's strike speed and nearly struck him despite his skill in anticipating unpredictable hits (seeing as he could react to hits from multiple different directions) and even casually blocked a hit within his own blindspot. 

 Obito however, effortlessly charged at Minato and easily grabbed him and Minato would've been warped instantly had he not have Hiraishin to bail him out. This is from an inexperienced Obito who lacked Rikudou Chakra and the Gunbai which is an effective weapon.

 So again, I don't see how you proved that Minato w/o FTG is more reflexive and faster than Base Gai.


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## Rocky (Nov 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> If you really want to prove that Minato is essentially superior to Base Gai and has FTG on top of that, then you have to prove that Minato is on a higher level than Gai without FTG.



Hiraishin isn't some super form Minato activates. His reflexes, as in– his perception & "nerve transmission speed", are the same regardless of whether or not he can use Hiraishin.



NarutoX28 said:


> Gai, with mere reflexes alone managed to surpass Obito's strike speed and nearly struck him despite his skill in anticipating unpredictable hits (seeing as he could react to hits from multiple different directions) and even casually blocked a hit within his own blindspot.



This entire paragraph doesn't make a lick of sense. 

Gai was able to save himself by kicking his nun-chuck back the other way, forcing Obito's hand. If Gai had done this and hit Obito at the moment of his, er– solidification, _then_ you'd have something to work with. 

Gai has better taijutsu that Minato too, which you seem to be ignoring. 



NarutoX28 said:


> Obito however, effortlessly charged at Minato and easily grabbed him and Minato would've been warped instantly had he not have Hiraishin to bail him out.



That never happened, though. The only time Minato was grabbed was when he first experienced Kamui.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 11, 2015)

Either one of them can win--but, if he's sick, it's probably not going to be Itachi.


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## Lord Aizen (Nov 11, 2015)

Itachi wins everything is a one shot kill or can connect to a one shot kill. if youre talking about dying death bed itachi of course he'll lose


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Hiraishin isn't some super form Minato activates. His reflexes, as in– his perception & "nerve transmission speed", are the same regardless of whether or not he can use Hiraishin.



 All right and his nerve transmission speed and perception still pales in comparison to somebody who can perceive things while moving at speeds that distorts space itself.




> This entire paragraph doesn't make a lick of sense.
> 
> Gai was able to save himself by kicking his nun-chuck back the other way, forcing Obito's hand. If Gai had done this and hit Obito at the moment of his, er– solidification, _then_ you'd have something to work with.



 Gai was in mid-air and like you mentioned, managed to pressure Obito with an impressive maneuvor that simultaneously kicked back Obito's hand and managed to swing a nunchuck that he barely phased through despite having increased Increased Field of Vision (meaning he should've detected it earlier within his peripheral vision) and Rikudou Chakra. Keep in mind that Obito managed to outclass KCM Naruto in CQC and reflexes while KCM Naruto displayed superior reflexes to Minato seeing how he could physically react to V2 Ei with sheer speed and also taking into consideration how KCM Naruto's own strike on Kisame following his speed couldn't be detected by Adult Bee whereas Young Bee could detect Minato's own base speed after his warp on Raikage's back.

 Even then, I love how you downgrade Gai's feat and claim how he failed, so therefore it's pointless while Minato had done absolutely nothing that warranted any sort of shock outside of Hiraishin. Obito literally only had to run through him and easily caught Minato within his chains, forcing Minato to use Hiraishin to avoid it.



> Gai has better taijutsu that Minato too, which you seem to be ignoring.



 And that's ultimately a necessity for 2 close-range fighters and also heavily relies on reflexes.



> That never happened, though. The only time Minato was grabbed was when he first experienced Kamui.



 And he was easily caught after Obito literally ran through him. Obito literally had less experience and lacked Rikudou Chakra which ultimately made him less powerful overall.


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## DarkPower19 (Nov 12, 2015)

Tobirama. He is the Second Hokage, and his power is very superior than Itachi, also he has also struggled with many Uchiha in the past and knows the Sharingan. I'ts Senju, it has a lot of resistance, a great speed whit the Hiraishin and potent jutsus.  Itachi is powerful, but was tired with continued use of the Mangekyou, let alone Susanoo.


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