# Genis-Vell vs Lucifer Morningstar



## Blakk Jakk (Aug 16, 2018)

I've been curious of this one for quite some time. I wanna see how the starfaced Half-Kree, Half-Titan, All Bastard mofo stacks up against one of DC's big dogs 

S1: Captain Marvel Genis vs Mortal Lucifer
S2: Mad God Genis vs Lucifer Morningstar
S3: Photon Genis vs Lucifer Morningstar w/ Azazel's Sword


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## trexalfa (Aug 16, 2018)

Let me see... someone who shot Multi Eternity in the face and gave zero fucks about an omniverse tier warp....  Sounds like it's too much for the merely massively multiversal Lucifer.


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## TYPE-Rey (Aug 16, 2018)

Pretty sure that Lucifer is above multiversal...
@Huey Freeman you know your DC shit...care to clarify.


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## Huey Freeman (Aug 16, 2018)

Lucy is above Multiverse, it is important to note DC describes its entire verse as a Multiverse. They only used Omniverse one or twice at the most and I have never actually seen them used megaverse to describe the entirety of their verse. Anyway Michael and Lucy are the creators of the DC multiverse.


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## trexalfa (Aug 16, 2018)

Huey Freeman said:


> Lucy is above Multiverse



C I T A T I O N  N E E D E D 



Huey Freeman said:


> It is important to note DC describes its entire verse as a Multiverse.



Then how the hell is he above multiverse level? Genis fucked up Multi Eternity and no sold the Chaos Wave.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 16, 2018)

Huey Freeman said:


> Lucy is above Multiverse, it is important to note DC describes its entire verse as a Multiverse. They only used Omniverse one or twice at the most and I have never actually seen them used megaverse to describe the entirety of their verse. Anyway Michael and Lucy are the creators of the DC multiverse.


That's extremely weak next to a guy who uses TOAA as a weapon


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Aug 16, 2018)

he's so far above multiverse that mxy has some feats that are better than him


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## Huey Freeman (Aug 16, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Aren't you the guy who said that only TOAA can beat Lucifer? Hilariously, TOAA is in Genis' arsenal



Sigh but if you must insist

Lucifer explaining his multiverse is infinite 

*Spoiler*: __ 









By his own choosing he can become omnipresent



Reality Warping on such a scale he can ignore the Laws of creation and kill Fenris, a being who can't die until the end of everything. 

nigh omniscient after absorbing all the information from the Presence's creations


1/2 the presence an aspect of him


But please tell me more how Lucy is just merely at a Multiversal scale

Reactions: Like 1


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## Huey Freeman (Aug 16, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Because you never had any business claiming Lucy could take on the LT, you did so purely because you're an ignorant fanboy.


Oh look it's the timekeeper of salt. The guy who will bring up shit from year 2008 because you told him X fictional character can kick his Y fictional character.  

Now prepare him to bring up old shit as he goes on his tirade of personal attacks?

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Aug 16, 2018)

Huey Freeman said:


> Oh look it's the timekeeper of salt. The guy who will bring up shit from year 2008 because you told him X fictional character can kick his Y fictional character.
> 
> Now prepare him to bring up old shit as he goes on his tirade of personal attacks?



I feel like this is in someway projection, but I'm not sure since it implies you have the mental capacity for consistency and the like. 

Meanwhile Lucy lacks the feats to take an omniverse killer, your misrepresentations of scans aside


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 16, 2018)

As for feats on Genis' end


*Spoiler*: __ 





Genis killed Eternity with the help of Entropy who had been stalemating his father since the beginning of existence





*Spoiler*: __ 






The Eternity that Genis killed was Multi-Eternity as the descriptions are near identical to one another





*Spoiler*: __ 










Genis shoots Entropy in the face, restarts the multiverse and transforms him into his father, Eternity





*Spoiler*: __ 







An expansion on what Genis did when he busted the multiverse and brought it back





*Spoiler*: __ 







Genis is an Omniverse level telepath that can channel TOAA at will and use his telepathy/mental energy and funnel that into his Nega-Bands for energy projection


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 16, 2018)

*Spoiler*: __ 








Genis' Cosmic Awareness kicks in for the first time in the HoM reality (in actuality it's Earth 616 but it's been warped to fit Wanda's desires) and he starts to remember everything that happened in the Earth 616 universe as well as foreseeing what will happen should everything revert back to normal





*Spoiler*: __ 






Genis' energy explodes out of him and for a moment, he collapses and expands the entire universe. His power continues to bisect reality all around him as he struggles with his choice to change everything back as well as the Chaos Wave actively resisting him from doing so. Should he destroy the entire universe, he will put an end to Wanda's Omniversal reality warp





*Spoiler*: __ 








Genis bisects reality some more and admits he has the power to change everything back which would possibly retcon Wanda from ever casting the Chaos Wave. Either way undoing an Omniverse level reality warp is no laughing matter whether it be destroying the universe where it originated or just putting things back to normal





*Spoiler*: __ 





Also keep in mind, Doom and Wanda managed to steal the Lifeforce from TOAA and amped themselves up considerably. The Lifeforce is what caused Wanda to be able to warp the Omniverse numerous times through the Chaos Wave





*Spoiler*: __ 







Genis gets so powerful that he threatens to destroy Multi-Eternity again by siphoning off his energy




Genis is pretty solidly Omniverse level and has TOAA on speed dial 

Actually since I can't trust Huey to tell the truth how about you come on in @Jackalinthebox


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## Huey Freeman (Aug 16, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I feel like this is in someway projection, but I'm not sure since it implies you have the mental capacity for consistency and the like.
> 
> Meanwhile Lucy lacks the feats to take an omniverse killer, your misrepresentations of scans aside



No need to project sir, you merely use that to try discredit your opponent for which you have provided no form of solid counter point other that trying to flex your flaccid epeen. Only thing consistent is your childish methods as seen from your activity in the Cafe. Personal attacks is your MO.

Meanwhile, that nice and all I have yet to see a solid argument from you so ignoring. Kick rocks


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## Jackalinthebox (Aug 16, 2018)

I'll start off with a question. How do you view Destiny containing the entire DCU inside his book? Keep in mind that not only is Lucifer partially responsible for creating the Endless, but Destiny also admitted Michael could erase him without breaking a sweat

Been curious about how people view Destiny's status. Will post some of Lucifer's better feats here in a bit


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 16, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> I think it is because this Genis-Vell cult-worship is getting out of control.
> 
> Lucifer would be completely unperturbed by that stunt of "showing someone the One Above All" as a result, because he already has open association with His DC counterpart and travels the Overvoid with no issue.
> 
> There's nothing Genis could do against Lucifer as a result of that simple fact.


...

what

no

There's no Genis-Vell cult worship

You are aware in my scan dump that Genis is capable of channelling TOAA and using his Cosmic Awareness that extends up to TOAA into his Nega-Bands to project as energy right?

That's why he was capable of undoing an Omniverse level reality warp that was using some of TOAA's energy


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 16, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> I'll start off with a question. How do you view Destiny containing the entire DCU inside his book? Keep in mind that not only is Lucifer partially responsible for creating the Endless, but Destiny also admitted Michael could erase him without breaking a sweat
> 
> Been curious about how people view Destiny's status. Will post some of Lucifer's better feats here in a bit


I dunno, that seems like an Omniverse level feat but I'm not sure

Watchdog probably disagrees with that assertion

Please do post scans, I wanna see what Lucy can do


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 16, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> I'll start off with a question. How do you view Destiny containing the entire DCU inside his book? Keep in mind that not only is Lucifer partially responsible for creating the Endless, but Destiny also admitted Michael could erase him without breaking a sweat
> 
> Been curious about how people view Destiny's status. Will post some of Lucifer's better feats here in a bit



Destiny of the Endless was described by Lucifer as a side-effect of the Presence's deterministic approach to Creation, and as for containing the entire DCU inside his book:





Let us not forget the official map of the DC Multiverse has the figure of Destiny outside the multiverse.

Dark Nights: Metal also showed that, even though the Dark Multiverse is filled with worlds and stories that should never be, the events of Barbatos' invasion are still recorded in a book in Dream's library, in the section solely for dreams and nightmares. 

And despite all of that, Lucifer is still above the Endless for the most part.  He helped create the DC Multiverse, so he is responsible for all things within it, and potentially all realms connected to it.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Aug 16, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> pedantry and blinders from a bad poster



It's amazing, its like you selectively pick people you dislike then make terrible arguments in a failed to debunk their positions, virtue signaling for a sign up troll while you're at it.

Genis Vell channeling the powers of an omnipotent when measured against Lucifer's feats the best of which put him slightly above Nemesis is charming, but having actually read the comics, not harping on idiotic author statements, secondary canon sources and databooks...well..there's a reason why we're all bodying Huey and you're spared from a propeller hat barrage because you're the type to bait fuckers into getting banned 



Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> ...
> 
> what
> 
> ...



Your facts don't matter, only Catty's ceaseless grudge and crushing need to get everyone he dislikes banned does!


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 16, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Genis Vell channeling the powers of an omnipotent when measured against Lucifer's feats the best of which put him slightly above Nemesis is charming, but having actually read the comics, not harping on idiotic author statements, secondary canon sources and databooks...well..there's a reason why we're all bodying Huey and you're spared from a propeller hat barrage because you're the type to bait fuckers into getting banned


He did that on 2 separate occasions at least

Once against Purple Man to fry his brain

The other against House of M Wanda in an attempt to undo her Omniverse level reality warp that used energy from TOAA directly

So yeah, Genis is decently strong and punks Omniverse level characters pretty easily


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 16, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> ...
> 
> what
> 
> ...



That is the case, but you are trying to claim that would work on someone who possesses one third of the Presence's power (the other two being Gabriel and Michael) and was responsible for shaping the whole of the DC Multiverse at its very beginning, is more than capable of replacing God if he so chose to, and even killed a dark equivalent of the Presence.

The only thing stopping Samael from being a complete equal to the Presence is that the other two thirds of the power-set are possessed by Gabriel and Michael.  But even then, he still managed to kill the Dark Presence (though I'm finding info that says the second series will be non-canon to the 2018 series coming up).


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 16, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> That is the case, but you are trying to claim that would work on someone who possesses one third of the Presence's power (the other two being Gabriel and Michael) and was responsible for shaping the whole of the DC Multiverse at its very beginning, is more than capable of replacing God if he so chose to, and even killed a dark equivalent of the Presence.
> 
> The only thing stopping Samael from being a complete equal to the Presence is that the other two thirds of the power-set are possessed by Gabriel and Michael. But even then, he still managed to kill the Dark Presence (though I'm finding info that says the second series will be non-canon to the 2018 series coming up).


Errrrr

This is all fluff that assumes the old outdated theory that TOAA = Presence when they are not

Genis channeled energy from a being that's so powerful that his right hand man has Omniverse sized closets that are infinitesimal compared to LT's true body or the rest of his dimension


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 16, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> He did that on 2 separate occasions at least
> 
> Once against Purple Man to fry his brain
> 
> ...



So if I were to have, say, set up an Elric vs. Genis-Vell thread, where would the coin toss fall on who punks who?

I would be assuming Elric, given I've more than once seen the argument made that the Marvel Multiverse is just part of the bigger Skrayling Tree that Elric once shook.



Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Errrrr
> 
> This is all fluff that assumes the old outdated theory that TOAA = Presence when they are not
> 
> Genis channeled energy from a being that's so powerful that his right hand man has Omniverse sized closets that are infinitesimal compared to LT's true body or the rest of his dimension



Which is where I am seeing a problem arising with the argument.  My apologies if this takes a while to read.

Both The One Above All and the Presence are stated to be the Supreme Creators of their respective cosmologies. In that context, both are intended to be omnipotent. Trying to put one over the other is the same as arguing "which God is more omnipotent than the other".

But in the case of the Life Force and "tapping into One-Above-All's power", the case for full omnipotence was that your powers could also not be taken or tampered with, the last time I checked (though I could be wrong). Unless you make the case for The-One-Above-All _*letting *_some of their power be taken by others, as is the case with the Life Force and the Nega Bands, wouldn't the fact the One-Above-All's power could be taken by living beings at all point towards the possibility of the One-Above-All not being a true omnipotent?

And in the case of the Presence, his omnipotence over the DC Multiverse can be assumed by anyone who takes his Name in his absence, or anyone who places their own Name over Creation.  The Titans Gyges and Garamas did the former, and Lucifer had to engineer a spell to attack them in the past before they became omnipotent to kill them. Michael and Elaine both attempted the latter, with Elaine succeeding in becoming new God.



*Spoiler*: __ 









And in the second series (which may become non-canon with the new series coming later this year), Gabriel could only "kill" the Presence because the Presence allowed it, and that was only so the Presence could change from his present state. But the Dark Presence proved susceptible to what was opposite of his "Purity": corruption and contamination, which Lucifer exploited to kill the Dark Presence.

So, between the One Above All and the Presence:

In one case, you have a God whose power can be stolen by mortals and/or taken by other means (the Nega Bands), as evidenced by direct reference to the God in both cases. Genis-Vell, based on your arguments, is capable of taking energy directly from the One Above All, and the Life Force, the One Above All's power, was able to be taken by Wanda and Doom to empower themselves.

In the other case, there is a God whose Creation can be controlled by those who take his Name as theirs, or who replace his Name with their own if they possess the potential to do so, _*in his absence*. _Lucifer is one of those beings with the potential to replace God's Name with their own to maintain Creation, and so become God as a result.

A God who can have his power taken while he is present, and a God whose Name and control over Creation can only be taken by others in his absence.

I wonder what your thoughts are of that interpretation of the two.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 16, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> So if I were to have, say, set up an Elric vs. Genis-Vell thread, where would the coin toss fall on who punks who?
> 
> I would be assuming Elric, given I've more than once seen the argument made that the Marvel Multiverse is just part of the bigger Skrayling Tree that Elric once shook.


I don't think that's how that works. A counterargument can be made that the Elric Saga is part of the Marvel Omniverse as defined by Mark Gruenwald. I'd much rather not go into that and just leave the cosmology as is without having to drag other series into it.


Catalyst75 said:


> Both The One Above All and the Presence are stated to be the Supreme Creators of their respective cosmologies. In that context, both are intended to be omnipotent. Trying to put one over the other is the same as arguing "which God is more omnipotent than the other".


The One Above All's supremacy has never been challenged by anyone in-universe. All the times TOAA has given his power, it was of his own free will. The Presence on the other hand has been challenged and even beaten several times. You won't find one instance of that happening to TOAA. The fact that there even is an Overmonitor that may be above The Presence demonstrates that. TOAA on the other hand is above even the likes of the Beyonder and his entire race which is about as close to an Overmonitor analogue as you'll get.


Catalyst75 said:


> But in the case of the Life Force and "tapping into One-Above-All's power", the case for full omnipotence was that your powers could also not be taken or tampered with, the last time I checked (though I could be wrong). Unless you make the case for The-One-Above-All _*letting *_some of their power be taken by others, as is the case with the Life Force and the Nega Bands, wouldn't the fact the One-Above-All's power could be taken by living beings at all point towards the possibility of the One-Above-All not being a true omnipotent?


I've never argued TOAA is necessarily omnipotent except in-universe. Both instances imply that TOAA allowed both to happen and he just as easily yanked Doom of the Lifeforce. Genis on the other hand let himself die because he was a threat to everything. As powerful as both are, neither one can legitimately challenge TOAA.


Catalyst75 said:


> And in the case of the Presence, his omnipotence over the DC Multiverse can be assumed by anyone who takes his Name in his absence, or anyone who places their own Name over Creation. The Titans Gyges and Garamas did the former, and Lucifer had to engineer a spell to attack them in the past before they became omnipotent to kill them. Michael and Elaine both attempted the latter, with Elaine succeeding in becoming new God.


That's a pretty huge strike against their supposed omnipotence if they were retroactively robbed of Presence's power.


Catalyst75 said:


> And in the second series (which may become non-canon with the new series coming later this year), Gabriel could only "kill" the Presence because the Presence allowed it, and that was only so the Presence could change from his present state. But the Dark Presence proved susceptible to what was opposite of his "Purity": corruption and contamination, which Lucifer exploited to kill the Dark Presence.


Again, pretty gigantic strike against The Presence's omnipotence here. You will not see TOAA succumbing to something like that.


Catalyst75 said:


> In one case, you have a God whose power can be stolen by mortals and/or taken by other means (the Nega Bands), as evidenced by direct reference to the God in both cases. Genis-Vell, based on your arguments, is capable of taking energy directly from the One Above All, and the Life Force, the One Above All's power, was able to be taken by Wanda and Doom to empower themselves.


That's not what my scans say. Doom had to cast a pretty complex to get anything mystical from TOAA to empower Wanda and TOAA just as easily yanked Doom of his energy which shows how far above TOAA is to Doom. Genis on the other hand expanded his Cosmic Awareness to such a level that it extended all the way to The Ascension where TOAA is and was able to use some of the energy that his mind was processing. I doubt he could channel all of TOAA, just enough to mind fry Purple Man's brain and undo the Chaos Wave.


Catalyst75 said:


> In the other case, there is a God whose Creation can be controlled by those who take his Name as theirs, or who replace his Name with their own if they possess the potential to do so, _*in his absence*. _Lucifer is one of those beings with the potential to replace God's Name with their own to maintain Creation, and so become God as a result.


Which I'm going to say doesn't quite imply Presence > TOAA. Presence can't control who his successors are while TOAA has legitimately never been challenged by anyone. Moreover, the fact that Lucifer has 1/3rd of Presence's power kinda shows that even while present, the Presence's power is not wholly his. That's no different than what TOAA did with the Lifeforce or building Excalibur or giving Genis the potential to expand his Cosmic Awareness to such a high level.


Catalyst75 said:


> A God who can have his power taken while he is present, and a God whose Name and control over Creation can only be taken by others in his absence.


Not all of his power nor against his consent unlike The Presence.


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## Kurou (Aug 16, 2018)

Channeling someone's power doesn't necessarily mean you're taking it by force. 


Kind of a weird argument to make cat


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 16, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> I don't think that's how that works. A counterargument can be made that the Elric Saga is part of the Marvel Omniverse as defined by Mark Gruenwald. I'd much rather not go into that and just leave the cosmology as is without having to drag other series into it.



As defined by Mark Gruenwald, every franchise or story you can think of is part of the Marvel Omniverse.

So I agree that the Omniverse as a concept should not be gone into.



Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> The One Above All's supremacy has never been challenged by anyone in-universe. All the times TOAA has given his power, it was of his own free will. The Presence on the other hand has been challenged and even beaten several times. You won't find one instance of that happening to TOAA. The fact that there even is an Overmonitor that may be above The Presence demonstrates that. TOAA on the other hand is above even the likes of the Beyonder and his entire race which is about as close to an Overmonitor analogue as you'll get.



My question is has it ever been stated explicitly that the One Above All gave his power to someone else every other time people like Genis, Wanda and Doom have used it?

Aside from the Dark Presence, which may not have even been the Presence (and those events might become non-canon depending on what the 2018 series), I don't know of the times where the Presence was "beaten". As for the Overmonitor, the Overmonitor was taken completely unaware by the existence of the DC Multiverse, as it thought itself the only thing in existence, and the concepts within it were also foreign to the Overmonitor - concepts that would have been invented by the Presence, and concepts which split the initial probe it sent into two separate entities.

And the Lucifer series both show there has been more than one Creation in the Void.  The Silk Man was from a Creation either before or after Yahweh's, after all. The implication is that the DC Multiverse was the only one the Overmonitor noticed.



Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> I've never argued TOAA is necessarily omnipotent except in-universe. Both instances imply that TOAA allowed both to happen and he just as easily yanked Doom of the Lifeforce. Genis on the other hand let himself die because he was a threat to everything. As powerful as both are, neither one can legitimately challenge TOAA.



I get what you are saying now, even if it is still implication.



Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> That's a pretty huge strike against their supposed omnipotence if they were retroactively robbed of Presence's power.



They were omnipotent _within _the DC Multiverse. The Presence was absent, but his Name was still imprinted upon everything in Creation. His Name was holding Creation together, and Creation started to fall apart once it began fading away in his absence. Taking his Name as their own was equivalent to taking over the control panels of reality; from the moment they did so, they were omnipotent, but there was still a time where they were not.

And I say omnipotence because Lucifer himself said they were, and that was why he had to strike them at a time _before _they were.



Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Which I'm going to say doesn't quite imply Presence > TOAA. Presence can't control who his successors are while TOAA has legitimately never been challenged by anyone. Moreover, the fact that Lucifer has 1/3rd of Presence's power kinda shows that even while present, the Presence's power is not wholly his. That's no different than what TOAA did with the Lifeforce or building Excalibur or giving Genis the potential to expand his Cosmic Awareness to such a high level.



Because that was the way the Presence set Creation up, and it was only an issue in the first place because the Presence chose to leave. 

Furthermore, while Lucifer does have 1/3rd of the Presence's power, the Presence is stated to still be able to easily unmake Lucifer, because he has the sum total power - Creation, Manipulation, the Imposition of Forms and Patterns (to give Gabriel's power a name) - while Lucifer, Gabriel and Michael each only have one of the three (though it must be noted Lucifer could still create a Multiverse with just his and Michael's powers).

They arguably possess each of their own powers to the same extent as God, but he has all three and that makes him superior.



Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Not all of his power nor against his consent unlike The Presence.



I am starting to feel like we are arguing the same thing, only for different characters.

As I said, that is the way the Presence set Creation up - he allowed for himself to have a successor, and chose to make way for a successor by leaving Creation entirely.

What you are saying for the One Above All is that he allows those things while he is present.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 16, 2018)

Lucifer is hilariously beyond megaverse level+, let alone multiverse level+, but given the absurd upgrades Genis has gotten even after his already absurd showings were analyzed, Lucifer will still likely lose this one anyway. Lucifer can one-shot baseline omniverse level characters, but... that's not really anything to Genis doing the same to people on Lucifer's level.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 16, 2018)

Ampchu said:


> Lucifer is hilariously beyond megaverse level+, let alone multiverse level+, but given the absurd upgrades Genis has gotten even after his already absurd showings were analyzed, Lucifer will still likely lose this one anyway. Lucifer can one-shot baseline omniverse level characters, but... that's not really anything to Genis doing the same to people on Lucifer's level.


I remember when you said the fight was more contentious but now it seems like it's a stomp in Genis' favor


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## Nep Heart (Aug 16, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> I remember when you said the fight was more contentious but now it seems like it's a stomp in Genis' favor



 Yeah, that was my analysis prior to Genis getting a second upgrade.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 16, 2018)

Ampchu said:


> Yeah, that was my analysis prior to Genis getting a second upgrade.


Yeah Genis' feats are ridiculous and they were all overlooked

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Aug 16, 2018)

Some Michael shenanigans 




Lucifer oneshotting an aspect of the Presence



Lucy fights Garamas & Gyges, they both possessed part of the Presence's power



Infinity in relation to Lucifer



Destroying the Mansions of Silence & the "creations" that are contained there


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 16, 2018)

@Ampchu @TTGL @The Immortal WatchDog

IMO here's how the 3 scenarios go

S1: Win to Captain Marvel Genis because of his Cosmic Awareness being so broken that he was able to precog against Oblivion eating the universe, held his own against several Abstracts (actually Walker had to resort to switching him out with Rick Jones because Genis was a threat) and his power source is the "Heart of the Universe," which could mean Eternity but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion

S2: Win to Mad God Genis because...well, I think we've gone over why

S3: Toughie but I still say Genis takes it since his Cosmic Awareness will give him all the necessary info on that sword Lucifer has and he'll be able to prepare pretty quick against it


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Aug 16, 2018)

I about agree with that, Genis should comfortably take all three, LSM shouldn't be too far above pre nerfing Nemesis megaversal and a bit above but that's not beyond what you guys have presented here...and the guys feats from his original run have been heavily embellished by fans and editors and databook and QnA panels in the comics themselves, so I've always felt Vertigo cosmics get high balled ahead of where they should be.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 16, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I about agree with that, Genis should comfortably take all three, LSM shouldn't be too far above pre nerfing Nemesis megaversal and a bit above but that's not beyond what you guys have presented here...and the guys feats from his original run have been heavily embellished by fans and editors and databook and QnA panels in the comics themselves, so I've always felt Vertigo cosmics get high balled ahead of where they should be.


Well to be fair in the new run, Lucy got a sword that mortally wounded The Presence and caused him to change into something resembling the Great Evil Beast and he was able to strike down The Presence with it

That's why I say Genis would need to use his Cosmic Awareness to prepare for the thing

Granted it's noncanon but I wanted to put that scenario in just to be fair to Lucy in case it's a stomp


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Aug 16, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Well to be fair in the new run, Lucy got a sword that mortally wounded The Presence and caused him to change into something resembling the Great Evil Beast and he was able to strike down The Presence with it
> 
> That's why I say Genis would need to use his Cosmic Awareness to prepare for the thing
> 
> Granted it's noncanon but I wanted to put that scenario in just to be fair to Lucy in case it's a stomp



I miss when the presence was a fucking dumb thot who looked like she worked at a 90's coffee house 

edit- oh and @Catalyst75  I just wanna point out, your naked attempt to slander the fucking posters in this thread is exactly why no one, no one fucking respects you here. You think you can hide behind your issues and use the rules to shield you from reprisal for trolling. Keep it up and someone is going to get sick of your shit and you'll find you won't be able to log on without getting dog piled 

calm the fuck down dude.


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## Lurko (Aug 16, 2018)

Genis with those gains.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 16, 2018)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Genis with those gains.


Check out Avengers Forever and Peter David's Captain Marvel series mate 

You should read Avengers Forever so you can spoil the plot of Avengers 4 for yourself


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## Lurko (Aug 16, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Check out Avengers Forever and Peter David's Captain Marvel series mate
> 
> You should read Avengers Forever so you can spoil the plot of Avengers 4 for yourself


I rather not.


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 16, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Some Michael shenanigans
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is also Lucifer going into a pool filled with the thoughts of God and taking the entirety of the pool into himself.

Matthew Schroeder's equation of Lucifer processing the entire 20 billion year history of a Creation before he can blink.

Uncontrolled cosmic awareness drove Genis bats-in-the-belfry crazy.

Lucifer both processed the entire history of Creation, and took in the thoughts of God within himself, and was not bothered at all.  Meanwhile, comprehending the Presence was too much for the Titan Cronus (it killed him), and the Spectre could not handle what it felt like to be God.  Keep in mind the Spectre once channeled enough power in his clash with the Anti-Monitor to see, and I quote: "He sees worlds that have never existed and never will! *He sees shapes and colors and patterns and concepts undreamt-of even by his master*!"

Lucifer may be one of the extremely few instances where Genis' Cosmic Awareness isn't the banned-from-vs-debates game-breaking power his is purported to be.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 17, 2018)

Uhhh, yeah, that feat that @MatthewSchroeder calced is for _weakened_ Lucifer. Space and time on all levels are otherwise completely irrelevant to his true form at its peak to the point he transcends DC's Multiverse by a large margin.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> There is also Lucifer going into a pool filled with the thoughts of God and taking the entirety of the pool into himself.
> 
> Matthew Schroeder's equation of Lucifer processing the entire 20 billion year history of a Creation before he can blink.
> 
> ...


Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Genis' insanity is not that much of a crutch to him

All it did was just make him more dangerous and able to access his higher end powers that had been blocked by Moondragon and his morals

Without Moondragon or his ethics in the equation, Genis was free to go around beating Abstracts and undo TOAA-backed reality warps


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

It's honestly more impressive that a mortal being attain Cosmic Awareness and only suffer temporary madness from it than a metaphysical being that already had access to it since he was first created

The mere fact his head didn't explode so hard that he would have gotten erased is a testament to how sturdy his brain is and how insane his mind's processing power is


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 17, 2018)

Ampchu said:


> Uhhh, yeah, that feat that @MatthewSchroeder calced is for _weakened_ Lucifer. Space and time on all levels are otherwise completely irrelevant to his true form at its peak to the point he transcends DC's Multiverse by a large margin.



Ah, that's right. He gave his Lightbringer power to Mazikeen before he left for the Void.  And he's been stated to be able to react as fast as can be said to be instantaneous.  If he can _move_ as fast as he can process information...Well, you get the idea. 



Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> It's honestly more impressive that a mortal being attain Cosmic Awareness and only suffer temporary madness from it than a metaphysical being that already had access to it since he was first created
> 
> The mere fact his head didn't explode so hard that he would have gotten erased is a testament to how sturdy his brain is and how insane his mind's processing power is



It is also comic books. When you are a writer, you usually write what works for the story you want. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the levels of the characters in this thread, it is a matter of who can act and strike first for a definite advantage, and I think Lucifer may have that advantage (even if speed is rather irrelevant at a certain point).  His processing speed in a _weakened state_ is well over a hundred orders of magnitude greater than the highest calculated speed for Marvel characters on the site (that are recorded on the speed scale), and an argument could be made on whether Genis-Vell's Cosmic Awareness could even apply to Lucifer, depending on how Cosmic Awareness would interact with Acausality (which is listed on Lucifer's profile).


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> At the levels of the characters in this thread, it is a matter of who can act and strike first for a definite advantage, and I think Lucifer may have that advantage (even if speed is rather irrelevant at a certain point). His processing speed in a _weakened state_ is well over a hundred orders of magnitude greater than the highest calculated speed for Marvel characters on the site (that are recorded on the speed scale), and an argument could be made on whether Genis-Vell's Cosmic Awareness could even apply to Lucifer, depending on how Cosmic Awareness would interact with Acausality (which is listed on Lucifer's profile).


Given that Genis' Cosmic Awareness is so broken that it could be used on the likes of Oblivion, Eternity, Entropy, etc. as well as see through an Omniverse level reality warp, I'm pretty sure he'd have no trouble using his Cosmic Awareness on Lucifer


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 17, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Given that Genis' Cosmic Awareness is so broken that it could be used on the likes of Oblivion, Eternity, Entropy, etc. as well as see through an Omniverse level reality warp, I'm pretty sure he'd have no trouble using his Cosmic Awareness on Lucifer



Perhaps, but Marvel abstract entities are tied to the concepts they embody within the Marvel Multiverse, and so within what Genis' Cosmic Awareness could be aware of.

Lucifer was created by the Presence before the DC Multiverse, so I am uncertain whether an ability that allows perception of everything _within a Universe_ would be applicable to an entity created outside of any one Universe.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> Perhaps, but Marvel abstract entities are tied to the concepts they embody within the Marvel Multiverse, and so within what Genis' Cosmic Awareness could be aware of.
> 
> Lucifer was created by the Presence before the DC Multiverse, so I am uncertain whether an ability that allows perception of everything _within a Universe_ would be applicable to an entity created outside of any one Universe.


Errrrrr

No

When you're capable of extending your Cosmic Awareness to the domain of TOAA, you are not bound to any one "universe" or creation or what have you

Beings like Oblivion have extended before the multiverse began and yet Genis was able to counter him eating the universe by seeing his assault before it happened and going somewhere outside of Oblivion's influence


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## Fang (Aug 17, 2018)

To his credit, Lucy is outmatched in cosmic throw downs by a number of entities that don't surpass two hands. So if all this this about Genis is true, then he'll probably lose 6 out of 10 times here. But the shit with the Basanos, Endless, Michael, etc is still pretty damn stupid ridiculous by any stretch in any universe's cosmology.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

Fang said:


> To his credit, Lucy is outmatched in cosmic throw downs by a number of entities that don't surpass two hands. So if all this this about Genis is true, then he'll probably lose 6 out of 10 times here. But the shit with the Basanos, Endless, Michael, etc is still pretty damn stupid ridiculous by any stretch in any universe's cosmology.


I posted a bunch of scans on the first page so check over there mate

In any case, I'm not sure about Lucifer being able to match someone who can easily kill Omniverse level beings and resurrect them at will, undo Omniverse level reality warps, use Cosmic Awareness to precog Abstracts and feed him as much information as he needs and channel TOAA via Cosmic Awareness to funnel his mental energy into his pair of Nega-Bands to project energy with


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 17, 2018)

Eh probably still Lucifer.
Edit: Michael would maybe even be better 

Michael has that raw power feat of rewriting every Atom in the entirety of Creation while dying or something like this.


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 17, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> I posted a bunch of scans on the first page so check over there mate
> 
> In any case, I'm not sure about Lucifer being able to match someone who can easily kill Omniverse level beings and resurrect them at will, undo Omniverse level reality warps, use Cosmic Awareness to precog Abstracts and feed him as much information as he needs and channel TOAA via Cosmic Awareness to funnel his mental energy into his pair of Nega-Bands to project energy with



Which is why this question needs to be asked: *what are the limits to his Cosmic Awareness?
*


Up until the time near his death, Genis kept on having trouble "tuning" his Cosmic Awareness between past, present and future.  It is not something he ever displayed complete mastery over, and his Cosmic Awareness never afforded him a possibility where he could keep himself from destroying the Universe that didn't result in his own death.

And it didn't stop Zemo from freezing him in time, carving him into pieces and scattering him across the Darkforce dimension.

His death alone is one piece of evidence that his Cosmic Awareness is far from perfect, and that someone with the means at their disposal can kill him.



RavenSupreme said:


> Eh probably still Lucifer.
> Edit: Michael would maybe even be better
> 
> Michael has that raw power feat of rewriting every Atom in the entirety of Creation while dying or something like this.



That is what he did when he entered the Logos, and Lucifer later shattered the Logos with his power (while Michael was inside).

Elaine Belloc also inscribed her name on every particle in Creation later on, when The Presence handed over Creation to her.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> Which is why this question needs to be asked: *what are the limits to his Cosmic Awareness?*


Oh boy I saw you use a scan outta context. This will be good.


Catalyst75 said:


> *Spoiler*:
> 
> Up until the time near his death, Genis kept on having trouble "tuning" his Cosmic Awareness between past, present and future.


Yup you didn’t read New Thunderbolts but you feel the need to take that instance outta context. You wanna know why Genis was having trouble with his Cosmic Awareness here? It was because of Baron Zemo messing with his regeneration and drawing energy off of Eternity which caused him to exist at all points in time as well as all timelines simultaneously. If Zemo hadn’t have done that, Genis wouldn’t be having that problem. Genis prior to this had no trouble seeing the past or future as he was able to witness the events of Avengers Forever and what would have happened had he saved or not saved the galactic peacemaker.

Catalyst, read the comics, don’t take these scans off random sites.


Catalyst75 said:


> It is not something he ever displayed complete mastery over, and his Cosmic Awareness never afforded him a possibility where he could keep himself from destroying the Universe that didn't result in his own death.


A death that he allowed to happen. Genis subconsciously wanted Zemo to kill him because there was no other alternative where he doesn’t destroy everything. Its Genis, it’s his job to protect the universes and being a massive walking reality black hole means he had to die as well as him having a bit of a death wish. Moreover, I consider this massive PIS considering his earlier feats of being able to tell the past and future just fine. I’ve also never said he ever mastered the Cosmic Awareness. I’ve always stressed that he hasn’t.


Catalyst75 said:


> And it didn't stop Zemo from freezing him in time, carving him into pieces and scattering him across the Darkforce dimension.


Go to Thunderbolts [HASHTAG]#101[/HASHTAG] and read Songbird’s obituary for Genis. She says that he wanted to die and knew he was going to. Given that she was inside his head and saw firsthand what he was going to do, I don’t doubt her word for a second.


Catalyst75 said:


> His death alone is one piece of evidence that his Cosmic Awareness is far from perfect, and that someone with the means at their disposal can kill him.


A death he wanted and allowed to happen. This is not something just anyone can replicate. We’re assuming Genis here isn’t suicidal or a threat to everything. This is frankly desperate, mate. I know you like Lucifer but for the love of Stan, read the runs.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Keollyn (Aug 17, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> I'd much rather not go into that and just leave the cosmology as is without having to drag other series into it.



Always hated this shit. 

Honestly, I find anyone using this type of argument to be utterly desperate. If you are a fan of a series, let its own weight carry it. Piggybacking off essentially another series power is taking the shortcut way.

P.S. This includes mythologies. SMT handled it best (since they tend to carry out the same or similar events that occurred in said mythos), but not all series do, and they should not benefit from previously established works.


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## Fang (Aug 17, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> I posted a bunch of scans on the first page so check over there mate
> 
> In any case, I'm not sure about Lucifer being able to match someone who can easily kill Omniverse level beings and resurrect them at will, undo Omniverse level reality warps, use Cosmic Awareness to precog Abstracts and feed him as much information as he needs and channel TOAA via Cosmic Awareness to funnel his mental energy into his pair of Nega-Bands to project energy with



You misread my post.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

Fang said:


> You misread my post.


Oh I did? Fuck it drinking at 2 in the morning wasn’t very smart


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## Orochibuto (Aug 17, 2018)

TOAA >>>>> The Presence

The Presence is likely PR Beyonder level.

The Presence was usurped by Carnivore, and while he gave up his power willingly, he was still blackmailed. He could not refuse Carnivore and save the Shekinah, he had to do one or the other.

Also The Writer is above The Presence.

Also The Presence was retcon created in a mega reality warp using the power of dreams, which may or may not had been the Dream of a Thousand Cats warp.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

Orochibuto said:


> TOAA >>>>> The Presence
> 
> The Presence is likely PR Beyonder level.
> 
> ...


I can’t believe I’m actually agreeing with most of this post


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## Huey Freeman (Aug 17, 2018)

Orochibuto said:


> Also *The Writer *is above The Presence.
> .


And? I've seen a couple reaches in my time but this is funny as heck


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## Orochibuto (Aug 17, 2018)

Note given (as far as I recall) PR Beyonder was not omniscient and The Presence is, he would be stronger than PR Beyonder.

Still, the point is TOAA > The Presence, because of reasons stated in my previous post.


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## Orochibuto (Aug 17, 2018)

Huey Freeman said:


> And? I've seen a couple reaches in my time but this is funny as heck



And what?

TOAA is above everyone in Marvel, absolutely anyone.

The Presence has somone above him, TOAA does not.


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## Huey Freeman (Aug 17, 2018)

Orochibuto said:


> And what?
> 
> TOAA is above everyone in Marvel, absolutely anyone.
> 
> The Presence has somone above him, TOAA does not.



Hey whats infinity divided by 2? Nothing you are saying dismiss anything here. Having the writer being above you don't disprove his power.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

I dunno about The Writer > The Presence but you have The Presence all but admitting there’s external forces beyond even him

The Overmonitor & the Writer probably are his superiors


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## Orochibuto (Aug 17, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> I dunno about The Writer > The Presence but you have The Presence all but admitting there’s external forces beyond even him
> 
> The Overmonitor & the Writer probably are his superiors



And we have confirmation Dreams are those forces.

So unless you want to get really creative and claim The Writer draws his power from Dreams, The Presence is at least not 1, but 2 tiers below the absolute top.


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## Kurou (Aug 17, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> I can’t believe I’m actually agreeing with most of this post




When Orochi bodies you you might as well light yourself on fire and take a dive off the nearest cliff


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## Id (Aug 17, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> Which is why this question needs to be asked: *what are the limits to his Cosmic Awareness?
> *
> 
> 
> ...


The feat of Shattering the Logoz is often overlooked or underestimated. And a really big feat even with Michael being in it.


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 17, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Oh boy I saw you use a scan outta context. This will be good.



Yet you didn't answer my question of what limits there are to Cosmic Awareness.  Unless you want to confirm that you think Cosmic Awareness has no limits whatsoever, in which case the character would be unfeasible for vs. debates like other instances where that was decided in certain scenarios for certain characters.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucifer is above the seven Endless. They are side-effects of the Creation which Lucifer shaped under the instruction of the Presence.

Destiny is said to hold the entire Universe in his book, all of the past, present and future, book from which Lucifer could tear the pages out of. The Basanos which Lucifer fought were based on Destiny's Book, and Lucifer ignored it when they tried to inflict every possible death onto him in their first encounter in Lucifer's Creation.

His will, described as infinite by Noema, the Basanos' child, allowed him to still turn the outcome in his favor when Noema tried to tilt the scales so Lucifer would die against Fenris, who would have destroyed the Primum Mobile if given the chance. Instead, Lucifer had reserved his power for the moment he crushed Fenris' head. All of this was after Fenris grew more powerful from all acts of destruction that included the devastation of the Mansions of Silence.

Death of the Endless has no claim on him, and she will eventually claim both time itself and her older brother Destiny.

Dream of the Endless demonstrated the ability to rewrite all of reality through the dreams of a thousand living beings in "Overture", a rewriting that affected his fellow Endless and the Book of Destiny.

Michael possesses the Demiurgic power of Creation, including the energy necessary to create a Multiverse.  To make his own Creation, Lucifer stabbed Michael out in the Void, took the explosion of power point-blank, and reassembled Michael after the new Creation was born.

And as @Id pointed out, destroying the Logos is no easy feat, as it was the place where the Presence's Words live and where Michael went to rewrite his Name onto _every atom_ in Creation.



Orochibuto said:


> TOAA >>>>> The Presence
> 
> The Presence is likely PR Beyonder level.
> 
> ...



You mean a deity who is omniscient wouldn't have surrendered because he knew someone else would save the day in his stead? Wasn't the logic of God letting something happen used to explain Genis, Wanda and Doom taking the One Above All's power? 

As for the The Writer, he said that he was going to be replaced by _another Writer_ at the end of his run who will take over writing _Animal Man's_ life, and that the representation in the comic was just written from the real world.


*Spoiler*: __ 










The issue that introduces him was one of Morrison's meta-commentaries on the nature of comic books, but the Writer is restricted by the fact that, as he states, he reached the end of his run and was to be replaced by another Writer who would continue writing Animal Man's life in whatever way they choose, a way he states he does not know about. 

And he can suffer writer's block and his representation in the comic can be killed.



That's in contrast to the set-up of the Presence as the Creator of the DC Multiverse - omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.  


*Spoiler*: __ 













The Presence states he possesses omnipotence.

The Presence made the Multiverse in a way that every variable, physical law and event happens because he makes it happen. 

He possesses Omniscience and knows everything, is able to disengage that Omniscience to allow for Elaine and Lilith to plead their respective cases on the fate of Creation. 

Any decision he makes directly in relation to Creation is _ab aeterno - _if he chooses so, he can make it so the Multiverse, and everything within it, had never been in the first place.

But most important for this discussion, and I believe for properly defining omniscience, was his meeting with Lilith and Elaine.  He wished to experience randomness, _so he left his Creation entirely _to see what the fruits of randomness would bring forth.  He _chose_ to disengage his Omniscience from his meeting with Lilith and Elaine.
----------------------------------------------------------
The Writer _cannot _be Omniscient because writers are interchangeable and temporary in comics - one writer does not know what the next writer will do, and aren't Omnipotent because they are restricted to the story and character they write specifically.

The Overmonitor is not omnipotent or omniscient, either. It was taken by surprise when it found the DC Creation, made by the Presence, within itself and its probe was taken aback by the concepts and stories that existed within the DC Multiverse, implying it never noticed other Creations that were created and then returned to nothing (at least three Creations came into being in the time we saw Lucifer in the Void).

The Presence is omniscient within the DC Multiverse, and only by leaving Creation entirely or disengaging his Omniscience could he allow uncertainty and randomness to play out within it.  He is omnipotent as any decision he makes is from the beginning of time - there is either "something" or "nothing".

The dreams of living beings, "external forces", only served to shape him, _not create him.  _The point the Presence was making was that everyone and everything is shaped by their interactions with external influences - no one entity is solely their own maker.  He makes Creation, and the thoughts of living beings in turn shape him. It's not a sign that dreams "made him", otherwise the Endless would be above the Presence, when Lucifer has made it clear the Endless, like Destiny, are side-effects of the Presence's Creation.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> Yet you didn't answer my question of what limits there are to Cosmic Awareness. Unless you want to confirm that you think Cosmic Awareness has no limits whatsoever, in which case the character would be unfeasible for vs. debates like other instances where that was decided in certain scenarios for certain characters.


If you wanna know what it’s limit is, it’s limit is up to and including TOAA’s realm for at least a brief moment. I thought that was obvious. I’m not saying Genis is equal to TOAA nor am I saying he’s superior to the likes of LT. I’d dispute if he’s even Protege’s superior but that’s for another time.

Photon Genis’ limitations are artificial because of the nature of Zemo’s fuckery. Those limitations aren’t present because we aren’t assuming Genis is suicidal here or trying to stop himself from destroying all of existence.


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 17, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> If you wanna know what it’s limit is, it’s limit is up to and including TOAA’s realm for at least a brief moment. I thought that was obvious. I’m not saying Genis is equal to TOAA nor am I saying he’s superior to the likes of LT. I’d dispute if he’s even Protege’s superior but that’s for another time.



I see. It didn't sound obvious the way you were emphasizing Genis could channel energy directly from TOAA through the Nega Bands, but thanks for clarifying.  One of my worries was that people could get the wrong idea about Genis tapping into the TOAA (and I got the wrong idea that was what you were implying, so my apologies for prior accusations).

Since you are saying he's not superior to the likes of the Living Tribunal, I guess also means he'd be below the Beyonders who killed the first LT, and the Pre-Retcon Beyonder (who was later stated to be a child unit Beyonder).  As for Protege, I'd say potentially lesser as he nearly usurped the Living Tribunal, and it was Scathan the Celestial whose judgement tipped the balance in LT's favor.

That said, I still think there is ambiguity of whether Genis would be superior to someone like Lucifer Morningstar.  Genis was powerful enough to destroy Multi-Eternity, but Lucifer is to the Presence what the Living Tribunal is to the One Above All, if not more so (Lucifer shaped Creation and had the potential to succeed the Presence as God).


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> I see. It didn't sound obvious the way you were emphasizing Genis could channel energy directly from TOAA through the Nega Bands, but thanks for clarifying.  One of my worries was that people could get the wrong idea about Genis tapping into the TOAA (and I got the wrong idea that was what you were implying, so my apologies for prior accusations).
> 
> Since you are saying he's not superior to the likes of the Living Tribunal, I guess also means he'd be below the Beyonders who killed the first LT, and the Pre-Retcon Beyonder (who was later stated to be a child unit Beyonder).  As for Protege, I'd say potentially lesser as he nearly usurped the Living Tribunal, and it was Scathan the Celestial whose judgement tipped the balance in LT's favor.
> 
> That said, I still think there is ambiguity of whether Genis would be superior to someone like Lucifer Morningstar.  Genis was powerful enough to destroy Multi-Eternity, but Lucifer is to the Presence what the Living Tribunal is to the One Above All, if not more so (Lucifer shaped Creation and had the potential to succeed the Presence as God).


The Presence is not TOAA of DC. We’ve gone over that. DC and Marvel have very different cosmologies.

Also, I’d dispute the Beyonders being superior to Genis. For one, they could not seal off the 616 reality to stop the Chaos Wave from spreading when they pooled their powers into Meggan while Genis almost completely undid it.

LT’s True Body up in the Starlight Citadel was completely unaffected by the Chaos Wave as he was training She-Hulk to be his newest agent.

LT’s True Body is so hilariously powerful that he has Omniverse sized closets for each of his agents. We don’t know how many he has but we know he has a lot. And LT’s size makes those closets tiny by comparison as does the rest of his personal realm.

Are the Beyonders more powerful than LT’s M-Body? Sure. More powerful than his True Body? Doubtful. We have no evidence that they attacked LT in the Starlight Citadel and the comic actually implies that’s the case since they attacked LT within the multiverse rather than outside it where his personal domain is. The fact that Adam Warlock even had an M-Body to fuse with more than implies that LT is still alive but only has one or a few M-Bodies lying around.


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 17, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> LT’s True Body up in the Starlight Citadel was completely unaffected by the Chaos Wave as he was training She-Hulk to be his newest agent.





Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Are the Beyonders more powerful than LT’s M-Body? Sure. More powerful than his True Body? Doubtful. We have no evidence that they attacked LT in the Starlight Citadel and the comic actually implies that’s the case since they attacked LT within the multiverse rather than outside it where his personal domain is. The fact that Adam Warlock even had an M-Body to fuse with more than implies that LT is still alive but only has one or a few M-Bodies lying around.



Except the death of the Living Tribunal in the lead-up to "Secret Wars" was to show the inevitability of the Multiverse's destruction as the last Abstract to die.  Adam Warlock specifically made a deal with _The-One-Above-All _to become the new Living Tribunal.  And the point of Lords Order and Chaos killing the second Living Tribunal was to emphasize how the cosmic hierarchy in a newly formed Multiverse was subject to change and corruption.

When was the conclusion even reached that, throughout "Secret Wars" and "Ultimates 2", the "True Body Living Tribunal" was never destroyed?  This is certainly my first time hearing of it.


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## Orochibuto (Aug 17, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> When was the conclusion even reached that, throughout "Secret Wars" and "Ultimates 2", the "True Body Living Tribunal" was never destroyed?  This is certainly my first time hearing of it.



There is a small hint that could be taken any way when Thanos takes AW to Ascension. He says something like that AW can become the new LT because he has the energy of other reality's LT. The implication of there existing many versions of LT (as opposed to just the same LT being the one acting in all M-bodies, at full power) could be taken to imply there is a global aspect of LT that oversees all of this. Just like how there is a Multi-Eternity for Eternities.

Its not strong evidence, but there you have it.

Of course it could also be taken to imply AW just had the energy of a LT M-body and that he used it to take over all of LT's total functions. In any case, it was not very clear.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> Except the death of the Living Tribunal in the lead-up to "Secret Wars" was to show the inevitability of the Multiverse's destruction as the last Abstract to die. Adam Warlock specifically made a deal with _The-One-Above-All _to become the new Living Tribunal. And the point of Lords Order and Chaos killing the second Living Tribunal was to emphasize how the cosmic hierarchy in a newly formed Multiverse was subject to change and corruption.


Reread Infinity Finale. Thanos outright says that the LT of Earth-616 (that is his M-Body) was slain but the M-Body of LT on Earth-NumberI'mForgetting was not which allowed for Adam Warlock to merge with LT. That's nothing new really. Abstracts get replaced all the time. Dave replaced Death in Secret Wars 2, Thanos replaced Eternity in the Infinity Gauntlet arc briefly, Entropy replaced Eternity, etc. TOAA had to be invoked because LT is the most prestigious of all the Abstracts.


Catalyst75 said:


> When was the conclusion even reached that, throughout "Secret Wars" and "Ultimates 2", the "True Body Living Tribunal" was never destroyed? This is certainly my first time hearing of it.


Since Dan Slott's She-Hulk run revealed the real LT in the Star Chamber. Every Abstract, LT included, uses M-Bodies. We are shown at no point in Secret Wars, Ultimates 2, etc. that the Star Chamber was breached in anyway. It's never brought up or implied to have been breached in anyway. Rereading Secret Wars, the narration says that LT was assaulted within all realities simultaneously. Well guess what lies outside of reality? The Star Chamber. The Dimension of Manifestations does as well which is where Abstracts get their M-Bodies. So really, it's more than likely that LT hasn't perished, just his M-Bodies.


Orochibuto said:


> There is a small hint that could be taken any way when Thanos takes AW to Ascension. He says something like that AW can become the new LT because he has the energy of other reality's LT. The implication of there existing many versions of LT (as opposed to just the same LT being the one acting in all M-bodies, at full power) could be taken to imply there is a global aspect of LT that oversees all of this. Just like how there is a Multi-Eternity for Eternities.


That's how M-Bodies generally work. We see just how different the Star Chamber's LT is to the other M-Bodies LT has possessed over the years. It'd be a strange outlier for LT's M-Body functions to be different although it wouldn't be implausible I guess.


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 17, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> . Every Abstract, LT included, uses M-Bodies. We are shown at no point in Secret Wars, Ultimates 2, etc. that the Star Chamber was breached in anyway. It's never brought up or implied to have been breached in anyway.



Except the Star Chamber would not need to be breached if the Living Tribunal himself left the Chamber to confront the problem.  When the Living Tribunal was killed, it was said a sliver of himself fell into each reality afterwards.  If the True Body of the Living Tribunal was still alive, it wouldn't make sense to me for him to let the Multiverse be destroyed after the Beyonders destroyed a M-Body.

As for Adam Warlock, he absorbed the energies of his original reality into himself (*Earth-19141).  *Wouldn't it be possible that he also absorbed the M-Body of that world, which is what allowed him to take the Living Tribunal's place afterwards when all other M-Bodies (and the True Body) had been destroyed with their Universes?


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> Except the Star Chamber would not need to be breached if the Living Tribunal himself left the Chamber to confront the problem. When the Living Tribunal was killed, it was said a sliver of himself fell into each reality afterwards. If the True Body of the Living


How would he? LT is so gigantic that the Omniverse is a closet in his personal dimension and LT dwarves the wardrobes that each of his agents possess. Generally speaking, Abstracts send their M-Bodies to interact with the physical space that exists below their personal domain. It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for LT, who's so gigantic that he could literally step on the Omniverse and not notice it, to go out and tackle the problem when he has scores of M-Bodies to do the job for him, especially in a form that cannot interact with what's physical.


Catalyst75 said:


> When the Living Tribunal was killed, it was said a sliver of himself fell into each reality afterwards.


A sliver of himself. That would be his M-Bodies. That's how his M-Bodies have been described in countless comics and guidebooks.


Catalyst75 said:


> If the True Body of the Living Tribunal was still alive, it wouldn't make sense to me for him to let the Multiverse be destroyed after the Beyonders destroyed a M-Body.


LT let the Chaos Wave rampage across the Omniverse without intervening. LT would absolutely leave the multiverse's problems to his M-Bodies rather than use a form that has drawbacks. Besides that, Jim Starlin had LT be aware that there were changes to the multiverse coming and LT, more than likely, chose to not use his True Body to act because of what was going to happen.


Catalyst75 said:


> As for Adam Warlock, he absorbed the energies of his original reality into himself (*Earth-19141). *Wouldn't it be possible that he also absorbed the M-Body of that world, which is what allowed him to take the Living Tribunal's place afterwards when all other M-Bodies (and the True Body) had been destroyed with their Universes?


No because the comic outright says that the LT of his Earth wasn't slain and that he bonded with that particular M-Body. The 616 M-Body on the other hand was slain and his body was being ravaged by space pirates. So there's no way that Warlock would have been able to use 616 LT's M-Body in anyway. It's also laughable that he have access to the Star Chamber LT when the Star Chamber LT is outside the Omniverse which is way outside of Warlock LT's jurisdiction. We have no solid evidence that Star Chamber LT was affected and in fact have evidence that he wasn't affected.


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 17, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> No because the comic outright says that the LT of his Earth wasn't slain and that he bonded with that particular M-Body.



That's what I meant: he merged with the M-Body of his universe, and that is what allowed him to take the place of the Living Tribunal.  



Explicit mention is made of the first Living Tribunal falling prey to the power of the Beyonders. If he were still around in the Star Chamber, there wouldn't be a need for a new Living Tribunal in the first place, one created by the One-Above-All itself..


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> That's what I meant: he merged with the M-Body of his universe, and that is what allowed him to take the place of the Living Tribunal.
> 
> 
> 
> Explicit mention is made of the first Living Tribunal falling prey to the power of the Beyonders. If he were still around in the Star Chamber, there wouldn't be a need for a new Living Tribunal in the first place, one created by the One-Above-All itself..


Nothing in that scan alludes to the Star Chamber in anyway other than your extrapolation. Moreover, the "first" LT is more than likely referring to the 616 LT not Star Chamber LT. Until we see the Star Chamber mentioned or alluded to, any assumptions about it is just that, an assumption. We don't know what Star Chamber LT has been doing since the She-Hulk run or what he's doing now or if he fell to the Beyonders. The comics thus far say that the LT was fought on all levels of reality and we have established earlier that True LT is beyond reality. The fact that there was an LT M-Body lying around for Warlock to merge with implies that LT did not get wiped out completely. If that happened, there would be absolutely no M-Bodies left and the concept of LT would be erased from the multiverse until someone took his place. As it is, this seems like a case of Warlock doing what Maelstrom did to Anomaly. That is take the place of the dead Abstract's M-Body rather than the True Body as someone like Entropy did with Eternity.


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 17, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Nothing in that scan alludes to the Star Chamber in anyway other than your extrapolation. Moreover, the "first" LT is more than likely referring to the 616 LT not Star Chamber LT. _*Until we see the Star Chamber mentioned or alluded to, any assumptions about it is just that, an assumption.*_ We don't know what Star Chamber LT has been doing since the She-Hulk run or what he's doing now or if he fell to the Beyonders. The comics thus far say that the LT was fought on all levels of reality and we have established earlier that True LT is beyond reality. The fact that there was an LT M-Body lying around for Warlock to merge with implies that LT did not get wiped out completely. If that happened, there would be absolutely no M-Bodies left and the concept of LT would be erased from the multiverse until someone took his place.



So would any fan theories to do with the Living Tribunal in relation to it.  But regardless of theories and assumptions, what is more important is *writer's intent.* 

With the build-up to "Secret Wars", the impact of the Living Tribunal's destruction by the Beyonders would require the _True Living Tribunal _to be killed off, to emphasize the threat of the Beyonders having killed every other cosmic deity in the Multiverse.  The same goes for the Adam Warlock Living Tribunal being destroyed in preparation for the First Firmament devouring Eternity.  

In both instances, the writers killed off the True Living Tribunal to convey the severity of the threat at hand.  You can't override and change that fact by appealing to the existence of the Star Chamber.


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## Fang (Aug 17, 2018)

Are you talking about Pre-Retcon Beyonder or *the* Beyonders who a handful of absolutely raped the LT and caused the events of Secret War 2015? Because even at his best in Marvel, LT wanted Molecule Man with him to deal with PR Beyonder.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> So would any fan theories to do with the Living Tribunal in relation to it.  But regardless of theories and assumptions, what is more important is *writer's intent.*
> 
> With the build-up to "Secret Wars", the impact of the Living Tribunal's destruction by the Beyonders would require the _True Living Tribunal _to be killed off, to emphasize the threat of the Beyonders having killed every other cosmic deity in the Multiverse.  The same goes for the Adam Warlock Living Tribunal being destroyed in preparation for the First Firmament devouring Eternity.
> 
> In both instances, the writers killed off the True Living Tribunal to convey the severity of the threat at hand.  You can't override and change that fact by appealing to the existence of the Star Chamber.


Writer's intent is nigh impossible to gauge because we are not the writer. This is not SufficientVelocity, we go by what is shown on panel and what was shown on panel was that the LT's M-Bodies were slain but the True LT was, for all intents and purposes, not affected.

You can't throw out what's been established by previous writers just because the writers wanted to make a big deal of LT's apparent demise. Writers do that shit all the time. Comics are very clickbaity in that regard and they usually want a way to bring back characters and killing off True LT would pretty much make it impossible for that to occur.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Aug 17, 2018)

>using writer's intent as an argument

lol


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## The Runner (Aug 17, 2018)

Writer’s intent means dick here.

The Death of the Author reigns supreme in this case. Especially thanks to the nature of the comics industry


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## Fang (Aug 17, 2018)

Going by writer's intent I could fucking try to be a sperg and claim Anakin Skywalker is > every fucking Jedi and Sith or even the Ones because of Lucas's repeated statements even though his own actions and other authors and writers in the canon fucking contradict him being stronger than everyone else

It means jackshit


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## Unlosing Ranger (Aug 17, 2018)



Reactions: Like 2


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 17, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Writer's intent is nigh impossible to gauge because we are not the writer. This is not SufficientVelocity, we go by what is shown on panel and what was shown on panel was that the LT's M-Bodies were slain but the True LT was, for all intents and purposes, not affected.
> 
> You can't throw out what's been established by previous writers just because the writers wanted to make a big deal of LT's apparent demise. Writers do that shit all the time. Comics are very clickbaity in that regard and they usually want a way to bring back characters and killing off True LT would pretty much make it impossible for that to occur.


That is true, but you sure seem intent on speaking for them when the stories on-paper point towards the Living Tribunal's actual death, but you instead pull out a place only seen in one series from a decade ago to rewrite those events into a "but not really".

Especially when the Living Tribunal could have simply left that place to deal with those matters personally, and resurrecting him would be (and on panel is indicated to be) a matter of the One-Above-All restoring it.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> That is true, but you sure seem intent on speaking for them when the stories on-paper point towards the Living Tribunal's actual death, but you instead pull out a place only seen in one series from a decade ago to rewrite those events into a "but not really".
> 
> Especially when the Living Tribunal could have simply left that place to deal with those matters personally, and resurrecting him would be (and on panel is indicated to be) a matter of the One-Above-All restoring it.


Except what we have on panel does not in anyway imply that the Star Chamber LT was involved. We don't know if the author intended for Star Chamber LT to die or not. We don't know if he intended to keep Star Chamber LT alive for future stories. We can't assume anything at the moment other than use the mechanics available us to try and paint something of a complete picture even if it's flawed.

Also remember what I said about LT not intervening during the Chaos Wave? That was even more disastrous than Secret Wars given that lasted about 10 years and it was threatening all of reality and LT didn't lift a finger to stop it. Secret Wars by comparison is small potatoes next to something even the Beyonders had trouble dealing with.


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## Fang (Aug 17, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Except what we have on panel does not in anyway imply that the Star Chamber LT was involved. We don't know if the author intended for Star Chamber LT to die or not. We don't know if he intended to keep Star Chamber LT alive for future stories. We can't assume anything at the moment other than use the mechanics available us to try and paint something of a complete picture even if it's flawed.
> 
> Also remember what I said about LT not intervening during the Chaos Wave? That was even more disastrous than Secret Wars given that lasted about 10 years and it was threatening all of reality and LT didn't lift a finger to stop it. Secret Wars by comparison is small potatoes next to something even the Beyonders had trouble dealing with.



You call Emperor Doom a small potato? You thot.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

Fang said:


> You call Emperor Doom a small potato? You thot.


Next to Lifeforce Doom, probably


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## Fang (Aug 17, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Next to Lifeforce Doom, probably



Brah, we are talking about an event that made LT getting murdered by three Beyonders look like a bag of dog shit with the cosmic totem pole of reality erasure across everything in Marvel. Its not below Lifeforce Doom at any rate.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

Fang said:


> Brah, we are talking about an event that made LT getting murdered by three Beyonders look like a bag of dog shit with the cosmic totem pole of reality erasure across everything in Marvel. Its not below Lifeforce Doom at any rate.


Yeah I get that but Lifeforce Doom got power from TOAA and he said that the Beyonder paled in comparison to him. Given Meggan tried channeling the Beyond Realm to stop the Chaos Wave and ended up dying and that the Chaos Wave somehow came back despite her efforts, I'm not seeing how Lifeforce Doom isn't insanely powerful here, possibly even above Emperor Doom


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## Fang (Aug 17, 2018)

So TOAA isn't omnipotent then. Neat.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 17, 2018)

Fang said:


> So TOAA isn't omnipotent then. Neat.


Hey I never claimed he necessarily was 

Still, you gotta admit Lifeforce Doom is just 

Emperor Doom is cool too tho. It was nice seeing more of Emperor Doom than we got of Lifeforce Doom because TOAA decided to yank Doom's powerup

Goddammit TOAA


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 18, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Also remember what I said about LT not intervening during the Chaos Wave? That was even more disastrous than Secret Wars given that lasted about 10 years and it was threatening all of reality and LT didn't lift a finger to stop it. Secret Wars by comparison is small potatoes next to something even the Beyonders had trouble dealing with.



"Small potatoes"?  The Beyonders killed every Abstract in the Multiverse (save the Phoenix Force) and sparked an unstoppable chain reaction that destroyed Universes until there was nothing left. 



Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Hey I never claimed he necessarily was



Which does point towards an issue with attributing omnipotence to Gods in fiction, especially Creator Gods. The moment you have a character stated to *take power *directly from such a God, it throws their omnipotence into question if it is not outright stated the God "allowed their power to be taken".


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 18, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> "Small potatoes"? The Beyonders killed every Abstract in the Multiverse (save the Phoenix Force) and sparked an unstoppable chain reaction that destroyed Universes until there was nothing left.


Which happens a lot actually. Maelstrom and Edifice Rex threatened to murder all the Abstracts, Oblivion included, and LT didn’t intervene, probably because he knew the situations would resolve themselves. LT only intervenes when directly summoned or asked to by his master, otherwise he seems disinterested in cosmic matters, resolving to let things sort themselves out.


Catalyst75 said:


> Which does point towards an issue with attributing omnipotence to Gods in fiction, especially Creator Gods. The moment you have a character stated to *take power *directly from such a God, it throws their omnipotence into question if it is not outright stated the God "allowed their power to be taken".


I honestly don’t care about TOAA’s supposed omnipotence. If you scrutinize him enough, you’ll find holes in his omnipotence. Regardless, TOAA has never been indicated to have had his power stolen without his knowledge or consent. Given TOAA represents the writer and the writer would obviously know what he’s writing, it’s very easy to say TOAA knows and allows his power to be taken and can refuse his power to be taken if he so chooses. He did it when Doom was getting too powerful for his liking, he can just as easily do it to anyone else.

Let’s recap here.

Star Chamber LT’s feats are having personalized Omniverse sized wardrobes for each of his agents. LT in turn dwarves those wardrobes immensely and the rest of his dimension is incomprehensibly larger than those wardrobes.

Star Chamber LT also showed no signs of being affected by the Chaos Wave as he was training She-Hulk at the time meaning his attention was elsewhere and he probably didn’t much care.

Said Chaos Wave originated from Doom casting a spell to empower Wanda to bring her children back but it corrupted her and kicked off the events of House of M. The Chaos Wave had gotten so potent and dangerous that it was ravaging the Omniverse several times and threatened to reach the Ascension where TOAA is. Something that potent should have gotten LT’s attention but it didn’t because it was way beneath him and probably because TOAA didn't want him to intervene.

Several ways of stopping the Chaos Wave were attempted like Meggan channeling the energies of the Beyond Realm to seal off the 616 reality from the rest of the multiverse although that failed because Strange and Beast noticed it was leaking out again and threatening to destroy everything again. What ultimately stopped it was the Phoenix Force being sacrificed to balance the multiverse out between itself and the Lifeforce.

Yeah, I think all that validates Doom’s claim that the Lifeforce dwarfed the Beyonder’s power and yet Star Chamber LT didn’t intervene or seem to care. This relates back to Genis because he threatened to destroy the 616 reality and presumably kill Wanda while doing so or put everything back to the way it was before the reality warp took place, possibly retconning Wanda from ever getting the powerup she got.

All in all, the Chaos Wave/Lifeforce is pretty damned broken and it’s nuts what LT and Genis were doing while it happened.


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 18, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Star Chamber LT also showed no signs of being affected by the Chaos Wave as he was training She-Hulk at the time meaning his attention was elsewhere and he probably didn’t much care.



She Hulk #7 - 8 - November - December 2004

House of M #1 - August - December 2005

I assume there is an issue where She-Hulk was explicitly stated to have been being trained by the LT during the events of "House of M" (a version of her appears in the event). Otherwise, there's a time discrepancy between when She-Hulk was in the Star Chamber and the "House of M" event.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 18, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> She Hulk #7 - 8 - November - December 2004
> 
> House of M #1 - August - December 2005
> 
> I assume there is an issue where She-Hulk was explicitly stated to have been being trained by the LT during the events of "House of M" (a version of her appears in the event). Otherwise, there's a time discrepancy between when She-Hulk was in the Star Chamber and the "House of M" event.


There was a second She-Hulk series that took place after House of M.


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 18, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> There was a second She-Hulk series that took place after House of M.



I see, though the Star Chamber is only mentioned in flashback in that issue.



Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Said Chaos Wave originated from Doom casting a spell to empower Wanda to bring her children back but it corrupted her and kicked off the events of House of M. The Chaos Wave had gotten so potent and dangerous that it was ravaging the Omniverse several times and threatened to reach the Ascension where TOAA is. Something that potent should have gotten LT’s attention but it didn’t because it was way beneath him and probably because TOAA didn't want him to intervene.



An alternative is that the Living Tribunal did not intervene directly because it was a matter that sorted itself out _without_ him. With the Beyonders, on the other hand, _he had to intervene_ after every other Abstract was killed all the way up to Eternity.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 18, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> I see, though the Star Chamber is only mentioned in flashback in that issue.


We never see LT affected by the Chaos Wave during or after House of M so it's very easy to guess that he just didn't care or was asked not to intervene.


Catalyst75 said:


> An alternative is that the Living Tribunal did not intervene directly because it was a matter that sorted itself out _without_ him. With the Beyonders, on the other hand, _he had to intervene_ after every other Abstract was killed all the way up to Eternity.


You still aren't getting that LT's true form is so gigantic that he'd step on the Omniverse like it were a Hot Wheels toy. Moreover, in order to interact with the Omniverse, he has to use an M-Body. As an Abstract, he can't interact with what's physical without an M-Body to use.

M-Bodies that the Beyonders slew. Within the multiverse. We're never shown a fight with LT that takes place outside the multiverse as the narration says it took place on all realities simultaneously and we've established that LT exists beyond all realities in the Star Chamber.


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## Affectugender (Aug 18, 2018)

So LT is basically Darkseid's true form but on a billion times bigger scale?


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 18, 2018)

Affectugender said:


> So LT is basically Darkseid's true form but on a billion times bigger scale?


Most Abstracts work like Darkseid's true form. The only ones I can think of that don't are like Entropy, Epiphany, Eon, etc. LT, Eternity, Infinity, Death, Oblivion, etc. work on a similar premise.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 18, 2018)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> : o


What's so awesome about that scene is the implications it carry

Think of all the times someone got a taste of TOAA's power. Thanos, Genis, Captain Britain, Wanda, you name it.

None of them had to have their power forcibly taken from them. Except for Doom.

Had Doom kept the Lifeforce, he undoubtedly would have been the greatest threat to the Marvel Universe ever.

Nobody would be able to stop him. The only ones that could like Genis were dead and Captain Britain had no longer been King of Otherworld and the Beyonders were rendered useless in stopping Scarlet Witch's reality warp.

Which leaves us to LT having to step in or TOAA having to act directly against Doom before he became too much of a threat.

Yeah, Doom was such a threat that TOAA did something unprecedented and directly acted against Doom. That is nuts.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Aug 18, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> What's so awesome about that scene is the implications it carry
> 
> Think of all the times someone got a taste of TOAA's power. Thanos, Genis, Captain Britain, Wanda, you name it.
> 
> ...


Doom is the only important character in that scene.  That was more of a comment on the two ladies faces. Surprised forever.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 18, 2018)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Doom is the only important character in that scene.  That was more of a comment on the two ladies faces. Surprised forever.


Yeah the artist fucked up there


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## Gunstarvillain (Aug 18, 2018)

Just so it's loud and clear LT does not operate like spectre.

He is ordered to do things.

Not to judge


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 18, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> You still aren't getting that LT's true form is so gigantic that he'd step on the Omniverse like it were a Hot Wheels toy. Moreover, in order to interact with the Omniverse, he has to use an M-Body. As an Abstract, he can't interact with what's physical without an M-Body to use.
> 
> M-Bodies that the Beyonders slew. Within the multiverse. We're never shown a fight with LT that takes place outside the multiverse as the narration says it took place on all realities simultaneously and we've established that LT exists beyond all realities in the Star Chamber.



So, every other Abstract was destroyed by the Beyonders during those events, including Infinity and Eternity among them, but you insist that the Living Tribunal was an exception who hid his true body away inside the Star Chamber while the Multiverse _he was tasked to protect_ was systematically obliterated.

The entity who was the embodiment of the Marvel Multiverse and all reality taken form, _which was also established in the issue where the Beyonders killed him.  _I'd say that is more evidence that the actual Living Tribunal intervened and was killed, rather than it being just another M-Body.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 18, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> So, every other Abstract was destroyed by the Beyonders during those events, including Infinity and Eternity among them, but you insist that the Living Tribunal was an exception who hid his true body away inside the Star Chamber while the Multiverse _he was tasked to protect_ was systematically obliterated.
> 
> The entity who was the embodiment of the Marvel Multiverse and all reality taken form, _which was also established in the issue where the Beyonders killed him.  _I'd say that is more evidence that the actual Living Tribunal intervened and was killed, rather than it being just another M-Body.


Because all things point to it. LT as I said is largely disinterested in cosmic affairs and only acts when ordered or summoned to. Given how LT was aware of the changes coming to the multiverse, it is entirely possible that LT only used his M-Bodies to see what was going on and got caught up with the Beyonders trashing everything.

That's a lot more tactical than just throwing your entire self, which as I've been saying repeatedly is not something he can use within the multiverse because of how gigantic and non-physical it is.

Have you also not been paying attention? The Chaos Wave was arguably worse than the Beyonder incursion. That thing threatened to turn all of creation into an amorphous blob if it was left unchecked. Not even the Beyonders could stop it.

And LT's reaction to that was total apathy. I can absolutely buy LT being disinterested in the Beyonder incursion as well as the fact that he knew beforehand that the cosmos was going to change.

Let's also not forget that if LT's true body really had been killed, the very concept of his being would have been erased from the multiverse like when Beyonder killed Death. There would be no M-Body at all which would mean Adam Warlock never became LT and we all know that's not true.


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## Dr. White (Aug 18, 2018)

how does SMT Luci stack up?


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 18, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> how does SMT Luci stack up?


Against Genis and/or Lucy? Dies pretty quick to both unfortunately.


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## Dr. White (Aug 18, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Against Genis and/or Lucy? Dies pretty quick to both unfortunately.


Oh damn, I was always under the impression that he was stronger, given relative fodder can handle infinite multiverses and what not.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 18, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Oh damn, I was always under the impression that he was stronger, given relative fodder can handle infinite multiverses and what not.


Infinite multiverses is pretty weak against Genis. The guy one-shot the Omniverse in and out of existence, used TOAA to fry Purple Man's brain, used TOAA's power to undo an Omniverse wide reality warp and was siphoning off Eternity's energy and threatened to destroy all existence

Genis is...stupidly broken

Makes sense though. His mentors were Rick Jones and Silver Fucking Surfer

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Aug 18, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Against Genis and/or Lucy? Dies pretty quick to both unfortunately.



Uhhh that's debatable with DC Lucy.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 18, 2018)

Fang said:


> Uhhh that's debatable with DC Lucy.


Wait really? I remember the Kagutsuchi bit being a megaverse. What else am I missing?


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## Orochibuto (Aug 18, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> There would be no M-Body at all which would mean Adam Warlock never became LT and we all know that's not true.



He flatout needed TOAA's help to become LT, so it very obviously was not as simple as merging with a M-body.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 18, 2018)

Orochibuto said:


> He flatout needed TOAA's help to become LT, so it very obviously was not as simple as merging with a M-body.


I'm pretty sure that was because anyone replacing LT was unprecedented. Thanos outright says that the LT M-Body of Adam Warlock's reality was spared.


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## Fang (Aug 18, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Wait really? I remember the Kagutsuchi bit being a megaverse. What else am I missing?



And Lucifer is beyond any version of the Kagutsuchi including the main one. The main Kagutsuchi governing everything in the Amala hence the whole "infinite meridian" line.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 18, 2018)

Fang said:


> And Lucifer is beyond any version of the Kagutsuchi including the main one. The main Kagutsuchi governing everything in the Amala hence the whole "infinite meridian" line.


Yeah I'm aware of that. Kagutsuchi was pretty shit tier next to Lucifer. But what else am I missing?


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## Fang (Aug 18, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Yeah I'm aware of that. Kagutsuchi was pretty shit tier next to Lucifer. But what else am I missing?



That he's not inferior to DC Lucy.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 18, 2018)

Fang said:


> That he's not inferior to DC Lucy.


Ah. Well Watchdog disputes LSM being Omniverse level so you're probably right there


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## Jackalinthebox (Aug 18, 2018)

What's the reasoning behind Lucifer not being omniversal?


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## Fang (Aug 18, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Ah. Well Watchdog disputes LSM being Omniverse level so you're probably right there



I mean to me, "megaversal and omniversal" are interchangable jargon that just exists to justify a higher level of "infinity" or cosmic scale in whatever fiction's cosmology. The Amala is just one example in SMT, and there's the similar shit with the Schwarzewelt (hell throw in a bunch of time travel antics beyond the shit with the Dsir and Yggdrasil with Alex coming from an entirely different timeline and awhile back with ThanatoSeraph confirming even the "pocket" dimensions in the Schwarzewelt being part of the lore in the game) , what Polaris was doing with the Akashic Records in Devil Survivor 2, etc...

Hence why I have my doubt SMT Lucy would lose to DC Lucy when the former goes around all of the universes, realities, different worlds, etc...and shits on guys like Kagutsuchi, Metatron, etc..

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 18, 2018)

Fang said:


> I mean to me, "megaversal and omniversal" are interchangable jargon that just exists to justify a higher level of "infinity" or cosmic scale in whatever fiction's cosmology. The Amala is just one example in SMT, and there's the similar shit with the Schwarzewelt (hell through in a bunch of time travel antics beyond the shit with the Dsir and Yggdrasil with Alex coming from an entirely different timeline and awhile back with ThanatoSeraph confirming even the "pocket" dimensions in the Schwarzewelt being part of the lore in the game) , what Polaris was doing with the Akashic Records in Devil Survivor 2, etc...
> 
> Hence why I have my doubt SMT Lucy would lose to DC Lucy when the former goes around all of the universes, realities, different worlds, etc...and shits on guys like Kagutsuchi, Metatron, etc..


So what you're telling me is

There's more Amala like worlds out there in SMT

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Aug 18, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> So what you're telling me is
> 
> There's more Amala like worlds out there in SMT



For every "world" (universe) there's a Kagutsuchi governing that universe. And there are "endless/countless" worlds in the Amala, and there's a boss Kagutsuchi who regulates and oversees the Amala over these lesser ones, and even the shadow worlds that failed the Conception that exist outside of the Amala also at one point did with the cycle of creation, destruction, and reincarnation happening over and over.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 18, 2018)

Fang said:


> For every "world" (universe) there's a Kagutsuchi governing that universe. And there are "endless/countless" worlds in the Amala, and there's a boss Kagutsuchi who regulates and oversees the Amala over these lesser ones, and even the shadow worlds that failed the Conception that exist outside of the Amala also at one point did with the cycle of creation, destruction, and reincarnation happening over and over.


Yeah I remember all this. But I think you said the Schwarzwelt was like the Amala hence my surprise. If that's true then I'm definitely in the wrong for underestimating SMT Lucy.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Aug 19, 2018)

I dispute him being "omniversal" in the sense that his highest end feats don't match up to the nastier cosmic shit done by the LT and TOAA, the manner in which Vertigo set their cosmology up and how horribly its always blended with the main DC reality has been a clusterfuck.

This gets overlooked usually unintentionally sometimes not so much.


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## Jackalinthebox (Aug 19, 2018)

I fail to see that as being good enough reasoning for him to not be omniverse level


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 19, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> I fail to see that as being good enough reasoning for him to not be omniverse level


I think I misunderstood his point as Lucy being lower tier Omniversal next to LT. My bad


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Aug 19, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> I fail to see that as being good enough reasoning for him to not be omniverse level



TBH this thread highlights an issue we have. Which is that users like Cattalyst don't actually debate in good faith, they stone wall for dozens of posts and multiple pages. Hide behind the rules and the ignorance of outsider mods with banning powers to basically silence any kind of valid discourse and put a stop to any kind of debate.

We shouldn't be forced to endure that, what he does should be a bannable offense and no one on the staff seems to understand that.


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## Fang (Aug 19, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Yeah I remember all this. But I think you said the Schwarzwelt was like the Amala hence my surprise. If that's true then I'm definitely in the wrong for underestimating SMT Lucy.



Yeah that's a straight up multiverse but the whole spiel TS did with the pocket dimensions inside it makes it even larger than imagined. Each Sector being a universe, each sector connecting to an infinitely layered quantum tunnel atop the previous one, that are beyond the space-time of the normal material universe, etc...Remember, a sleeping Mem Aleph's *breath* was affecting and shaking this multiverse.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 19, 2018)

Fang said:


> Yeah that's a straight up multiverse but the whole spiel TS did with the pocket dimensions inside it makes it even larger than imagined. Each Sector being a universe, each sector connecting to an infinitely layered quantum tunnel atop the previous one, that are beyond the space-time of the normal material universe, etc...Remember, a sleeping Mem Aleph's *breath* was affecting and shaking this multiverse.


I missed out on this. Interesting


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## Shuma (Aug 20, 2018)

So the general consensus is that Genis wins all rounds right?


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 20, 2018)

Shuma said:


> So the general consensus is that Genis wins all rounds right?


Pretty much

TOAA power too stronk


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 20, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Pretty much
> 
> TOAA power too stronk



Wouldn't that be considered disqualification because Genis needs to draw on power _from another character_ in order to get his win?


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 20, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> Wouldn't that be considered disqualification because Genis needs to draw on power _from another character_ in order to get his win?


Not really? Genis draws power from different sources all the time. It’s just that at his peak, he can draw some of it from TOAA.


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 20, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Not really? Genis draws power from different sources all the time. It’s just that at his peak, he can draw some of it from TOAA.



Yes, but the One Above All is still their own character while this is a match between Genis and Lucifer.

So, if Genis was not allowed to draw power from the One Above All in this match, do you think he would still win?


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 20, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> Yes, but the One Above All is still their own character while this is a match between Genis and Lucifer.
> 
> So, if Genis was not allowed to draw power from the One Above All in this match, do you think he would still win?


I don’t see why that’s a problem. That’s like banning Fei Fong Wong from using the Wave Existence when Fei gets his powers from the Wave Existence. Or banning Jean Grey from using the Phoenix Force’s powers.


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 20, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> I don’t see why that’s a problem. That’s like banning Fei Fong Wong from using the Wave Existence when Fei gets his powers from the Wave Existence. Or banning Jean Grey from using the Phoenix Force’s powers.



Those are default powers for those specific characters.

The One Above All mind-screw, if I recall what you said, was one instance with Purple Man. His default powers are energy absorption and manipulation, and telepathy.  The One Above All is not a main source of power for Genis, otherwise such a story-breaking power would validate needing to kill him off.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 20, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> Those are default powers for those specific characters.
> 
> The One Above All mind-screw, if I recall what you said, was one instance with Purple Man. His default powers are energy absorption and manipulation, and telepathy.  The One Above All is not a main source of power for Genis, otherwise such a story-breaking power would validate needing to kill him off.


He likely used TOAA’s power to (almost) undo the Chaos Wave

Even if he didn’t, that would still massively put Genis above Lucifer Morningstar regardless

Besides do you know how the Nega-Bands work?

The Nega-Bands work from drawing energy from the Negative Zone, photons in the universe and mental energy/telepathy

Mental energy that Genis has in abundance


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 20, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Besides do you know how the Nega-Bands work?



Yes, I am aware. 

Meanwhile, Lucifer has dominance over matter and the foundations of Creation, given he is the one who gave the Universe shape and "spun the light into suns". This includes time, as the Creation he set up was on a different gradient of time than the initial Multiverse proper.  Under the Presence's instruction, he shaped the structure of the DC Cosmology, which would include various spheres of the Cosmology and the realms within them (many of which have been stated to be infinite).

I suppose the question comes down to "who has the greater control over matter and energy".


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 20, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> I suppose the question comes down to "who has the greater control over matter and energy".


Would still give it to Genis if his matter and energy manipulation is so precise that he can undo a TOAA-backed reality warp


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Aug 20, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> Yes, I am aware.
> 
> Meanwhile, Lucifer has dominance over matter and the foundations of Creation, given he is the one who gave the Universe shape and "spun the light into suns". This includes time, as the Creation he set up was on a different gradient of time than the initial Multiverse proper.  Under the Presence's instruction, he shaped the structure of the DC Cosmology, which would include various spheres of the Cosmology and the realms within them (many of which have been stated to be infinite).
> 
> I suppose the question comes down to "who has the greater control over matter and energy".



Why aren't you banned? Stonewalling is unfuckingacceptable

why the fuck are you even here? all you do is bring misery, frustration and fury to any section you touch, your conduct is pathetic, like a cloud of abject misery that falls upon whatever section you touch...you're a blight.

And now you're attempting to roundabout handwave Micheal and the Presence power to LSM when he's always been the shaper but not the maker


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 20, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> And now you're attempting to roundabout handwave Micheal and the Presence power to LSM when he's always been the shaper but not the maker


That sounds like the opposite of the Phoenix Force but less manic depressive...

...

...scratch that, still manic depressive


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Aug 20, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> That sounds like the opposite of the Phoenix Force but less manic depressive...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...scratch that, still manic depressive



At least LSM is a classy manic depressive


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 20, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> At least LSM is a classy manic depressive


Yeah but Phoenix is prettier 

Anyways, Phoenix had to be sacrificed on an altar to stop the Chaos Wave even if she was about to counter its effects sort of

Genis almost retconned the Chaos Wave altogether


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 20, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Would still give it to Genis if his matter and energy manipulation is so precise that he can undo a TOAA-backed reality warp



Lucifer had the potential to take over the position of God with his Name on every atom in Creation, a Creation he helped create.  Depending on how far that extends, that means everything from the 5th Dimension (it exists within the Orrery) to the Sphere of Gods, the Monitor Sphere, and the World Forge.

Recall that the Tenth Metal produced such a wave of energy that_ it broke the Source Wall, _and White Lantern Kyle with the full Life Equation effortlessly warps time, space and reality based on his emotions, including a time he created a mini-Source Wall around a town:



Lucifer should be above both instances.


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## Empress Angeline (Aug 20, 2018)

Lucifer stomps. He's beyond the concept of infinity.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Aug 20, 2018)

wow this thread went from awful to terrible


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 20, 2018)

What in the everloving fuck was that sentence?


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## Empress Angeline (Aug 20, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> What in the everloving fuck was that sentence?


Wow Marvel Wank
Lucifer would beat The one above all as well
I'd argue Gan from the dark tower would stomp the one above all and he'd die to lucifer


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## Empress Angeline (Aug 20, 2018)

Yes. I'm serious here.
Marvel is well above multiversal obviously but not on the same scale as dark tower, DC comics, lovecraft, and the like.


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 20, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> Hm, now I get how the Suggsverse came out of here. It just depends on who you shill for.


Wow

I get you don't like Lucy losing

But you don't need to stoop that low


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## Hachibi (Aug 20, 2018)

Catalyst75 said:


> Hm, now I get how the Suggsverse came out of here. It just depends on who you shill for.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Aug 20, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Wow
> 
> I get you don't like Lucy losing
> 
> But you don't need to stoop that low



@Pandamonium @iwandesu @Xiammes

I'm gonna humbly ask that @Catalyst75  be section banned from the OBD over this shit. This is a guy who insults every user here with Autism by using his developmental issues to excuse his cowardice, trolling and pathetic baiting. He's lied numerous times both in this thread and to all of you, he enters the convo like Strongarm purely to troll and bait...and this absurdity hasn't fucking stopped forever now. How many more users does he have to manipulate sympathetic mods into banning when he's the sole instigator? We're all fucking tired of his absolute, contemptuous, lying bigotry and we ask that you remove him..or let us beat the shit out of him until he quits the forum 


Fuck this noise...he needs to be gone.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Es (Aug 20, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> @Pandamonium @iwandesu @Xiammes
> 
> I'm gonna ask that @Catalyst75  be section banned from the OBD over this shit, enough is enough. This is a guy who insults every user here with Autism by using his developmental issues to excuse his cowardice, trolling and pathetic baiting. He's lied numerous times both in this thread and to all of you, he enters the convo like Strongarm purely to troll and bait...and this absurdity hasn't fucking stopped forever now. How many more users does he have to manipulate sympathetic mods into banning when he's the sole instigator? We're all fucking tired of his absolute, contemptuous, lying bigotry and we ask that you remove him..or let us beat the shit out of him until he quits the forum
> 
> ...


He needs to begone


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## Blakk Jakk (Aug 20, 2018)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> @Pandamonium @iwandesu @Xiammes
> 
> I'm gonna ask that @Catalyst75  be section banned from the OBD over this shit, enough is enough. This is a guy who insults every user here with Autism by using his developmental issues to excuse his cowardice, trolling and pathetic baiting. He's lied numerous times both in this thread and to all of you, he enters the convo like Strongarm purely to troll and bait...and this absurdity hasn't fucking stopped forever now. How many more users does he have to manipulate sympathetic mods into banning when he's the sole instigator? We're all fucking tired of his absolute, contemptuous, lying bigotry and we ask that you remove him..or let us beat the shit out of him until he quits the forum
> 
> ...


After that post and him accusing me of running a cult, I agree


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## Catalyst75 (Aug 20, 2018)

Imakarum Mirabilis said:


> Wow
> 
> I get you don't like Lucy losing
> 
> But you don't need to stoop that low



Well, after I hear nonsense like this:

*"Genis is beyond infinity".

"TOAA is Genis's personal battery".*

How could I not see similarities to other posters from other forums who have made similarly ridiculous claims of other characters that are often mocked here?  I always thought Genis sounded like some trumped up Creator's Pet/Gary Stu, and nothing I've heard in this thread has disproved that.

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