# What is swordsmanship/Sword skills



## Seraphoenix (Aug 27, 2022)

Mods please don't merge this as it needs to be a separate discussion. 

In this chapter Brannew (Not Oda  ) gives us his opinion that Mihawk has greater swordsmanship/sword skills than Shanks. What does he mean by this?:
1. Only specific techniques in swordsmanship like parrying, thrusting, maintaining distance, etc
2. The sum of all your abilities (Sword techniques like above, haki, physical stats, DF etc) if you hold a sword in your hand
3. Other

In the Shanks vs Mihawk thread, it seems people are talking past each other as people seem to be using either definition 1 or 2. So which is it? Don't try and turn this into another Shanks vs Mihawk thread, just answer the question.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 3


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## A Optimistic (Aug 27, 2022)

I’m a firm believer it’s option 2. If two swordsmen fight, the winner is the stronger swordsman. Doesn’t matter if the winner used a devil fruit and/or used magical Jedi haki.

The winner is the stronger swordsman. And don’t worry, nobody will merge this thread with the other one.

Reactions: Like 11 | Agree 2


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## Mihawk (Aug 27, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> 1. Only specific techniques in swordsmanship like parrying, thrusting, maintaining distance, etc
> 2. The sum of all your abilities (Sword techniques like above, haki, physical stats, DF etc) if you hold a sword in your hand
> 3. Other



All of the above bro. 

Of course techniques like parrying, thrusting, footwork, and counters are important too. Mihawk showed this when he parried Vista for a while without even looking at him (focusing on Luffy). These basic fundamental techniques should be utilised by any high level fighter wielding a sword. Shanks, Rayleigh, Oden, Zoro, and Roger should all be capable of parrying, thrusting, and using their swords for defence. 

The sum of your abilities count too. In the New World, one cannot survive without at least having an adept usage of Haki. For the top tier elite and cream of the crop, this goes without saying. An insanely high level of Haki mastery is a base prerequisite for anyone who is counted among the world's strongest fighters. This is especially true if you _don't _have a devil fruit. Zoro has awakened Conqueror's Haki; Rayleigh is a very well-rounded Haki user who can bypass the intangibility of Logia Admirals. Shanks can easily block Akainu's magma with his sword. Haki is a tool and a skill to be mastered. 

Physical stats are obviously vital at this level. Oden was compared to a wild beast for the ferocity of his fighting style. He had the endurance and stamina to hang on the Moby Dick for days, and tanked Roger's Divine Departure without getting knocked out. His strength and speed allowed him to gain an upper hand on Kaido. Dracule Mihawk has the ability to slice off an entire iceberg that surrounded Marineford with the air pressure caused from a distance by a casual, nameless swing. While this is also a showcase of incredible technique and graceful skill, it also demonstrates the raw physical power that he has at his disposal. It's nothing like the feat by Law in Punk Hazard, as he does not possess a DF. 

Top tier swordsmanship consists of top tier mastery of Haki (possibly in all forms), an insane level of physical strength as a minimal requirement, as well the emission of Haki and the skill to use that weapon with flawless precision. None of these things should be mutually exclusive.

Reactions: Like 15


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## Seraphoenix (Aug 27, 2022)

Personally, I believe it's number 1 and Brannew was making two separate statements. Mihawk has greater sword skills than Shanks and the sum of his abilities (Definition 2) makes him WSS. If you believe in definition 1, then you believe he was making a 'therefore' statement with the skills and WSS thing.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Tsukuyomi (Aug 27, 2022)

The ability to imbue haki in your blade and make it more devastating/Lethal.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Sablés (Aug 27, 2022)

In a normal, limited world, I would go with number one. However, in One Piece, the barriers that defines a swordsman are undefined.  No authority in the world has or cares to and there are so many ways to build a style. The only way to make sense of it is that the swordsman who is stronger and wins, is the stronger swordsman. So I will naturally go with number two.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## spawn3 (Aug 27, 2022)

The problem with interpretation 1 is that all of Zoro's improvements as a swordsman are from things in option 2.

How does Zoro get stronger?
By learning how to cut steel (Haki)
By learning how to send flying slashes (physical strength)
By learning how to create illusions through spirit (Haki)
By learning how to use CoA and CoO (Haki)
By learning how to use the Foxfire style (Haki)
By learning how to use CoC (Haki)
Zoro trains to get better at things in option 2...

I've never seen Zoro training at parrying, thrusting, or maintaining distance.
I've only seen him workout to get physically stronger and training to improve his Haki.
Not a single upgrade has ever been about things in option 1.

Mihawk has to pose a challenge to Zoro in the things Zoro is getting better at. Otherwise, there's no point to the journey. 
When Zoro and Mihawk fight, their duel isn't suddenly going to be about parrying, thrusting, maintaining distance, or anything like that. 
It's going to be about things Zoro got better at, and those things include physical strength and Haki. 
It should be even more obvious after chapter 1033, when Zoro revealed that his kingly ambition was becoming WSS. 
Why would the fight be about parrying and attacking at 45 degree angles?

Reactions: Winner 26


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## Garcher (Aug 27, 2022)



Reactions: Like 2


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## A Optimistic (Aug 27, 2022)

So is Zoro not a swordsman since he's thrown kicks in battle and says he is willing to bite King's throat?

Reactions: Funny 3


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 27, 2022)

Haki, strength, technique all count as part of swordsmanship. Zoro's training involved haki, and Mihawk told him to reach the point where he can turn his blade black like his. 

The only caveat I'll mention, and this is just a theory of mine, is that no-contact aCoC might not count as swordsmanship. I think this is fair or makes some sense because it might reduce the necessity of technique while dueling/parrying/etc if everything becomes a big force haki push and the distinction between using a Kanabo and a Katana is gone. 
Zoro while using aCoC still makes contact, the only time he used aCoC no-contact was to free his sword from King's swordbreaker when he was gonna disarm him (which still fits in his proclamation of wanting to do anything to beat King even biting his throat)

I think the technique swordsmen will improve on via aCoC/haki will turn their sword permanently black to further increase their strength along the lines of swordsmanship. That is one distinction we see between the strongest haki users like roger or whitebeard or shanks who use blades but not black blades and Mihawk who is a swordsman through and through. 

This is still just a theory so take it with a grain of salt.


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## Sablés (Aug 27, 2022)

Sablés said:


> We can't forget what was never said. I cannot believe how many of you took this out of context. King was never stated to be a swordsman, but Zoro never said he wasn't one either. King said he didn't understand why anyone would limit themselves to traditional forms or schools, not that he wasn't a swordsman. Zoro said "Good point. *And you never claimed to be a swordsman*". Zoro cannot accuse King of not following tradition (which are guidelines, not rules) if he never claimed to be a swordsman. It'd be like trying to admonish someone for breaking a code they never adhered to in the first place. However, the only way you can say that proves King isn't a swordsman is if you believe anyone who fights wantonly or has a unique/aberrant approach to swordfighting is disqualified as a swordsman. Sadly for you, that includes Zoro, who said he would act just like King and would do whatever it takes to win himself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Captain Quincy (Aug 27, 2022)

If you beat the other swordsman then you're the better swordsman, it's as simple as that. There's not going to be referees during Mihawk's fights throwing red cards for using too much haki or not refined enough technique.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 2


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## Big Bob (Aug 27, 2022)

If you use a sword as your main/only weapon in a fight, you are a swordsman.


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## Vagueness (Aug 27, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Doesn’t matter if the winner used a devil fruit


This makes no sense to me. Are we really gonna pretend like BM is a more skilled swordsman then Zoro if she were to beat him with all her DF bullshit because she also wields napoleon?

There's clearly a difference between someone who's entire fighting style revolves around sword techniques and a DF user who simply uses a sword as an auxiliary tool.


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## Gledania (Aug 27, 2022)

mihawk wouldn't have wasted his time with shanks if he wasn't a swordman.

I guess shanks can win if they both stares at each others and start throwing CoC haki tentacles over each others   


Shanks CoC > Mihawk CoC
Mihawk CoA > Shanks CoA

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Geralt-Singh (Aug 27, 2022)

Number 2

Mihawk's main and only rival is Shanks, he obviously considers him to be a swordsman and he only stopped fighting him because he lost his dominant arm

Mihawk taught Zoro haki during his training, not pure swordsman techniques

Zoro's strongest attacks involve Haki and improving his Haki is what makes him stronger

Reactions: Like 7


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## A Optimistic (Aug 27, 2022)

Vagueness said:


> This makes no sense to me. Are we really gonna pretend like BM is a more skilled swordsman then Zoro if she were to beat him with all her DF bullshit because she also wields napoleon?
> 
> There's clearly a difference between someone who's entire fighting style revolves around sword techniques and a DF user who simply uses a sword as an auxiliary tool.



Yes Big Mom is a better swordsman than Zoro. What can Zoro do that's comparable to Ikkoku? And Oda considers a DF user like Fujitora to be a swordsman.


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## Garcher (Aug 27, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> So is Zoro not a swordsman since he's thrown kicks in battle and says he is willing to bite King's throat?


? Zoro has studied the blade, so he is a swordsman


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## Vagueness (Aug 27, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Yes Big Mom is a better swordsman than Zoro. And Oda considers a DF user like Fujitora to be a swordsman.


Why are you using Fuji as some gotcha example? Fuji's fighting style is in no way similar to the way BM fights and his swordsmanship is clearly way more central to the way he fights than BM's. 

Arguing that BM is legitmately a better swordsman than Zoro just proves how silly and disingenuous these debates get tbh.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## A Optimistic (Aug 27, 2022)

Vagueness said:


> Why are you using Fuji as some gotcha example? Fuji's fighting style is in no way similar to the way BM fights and his swordsmanship is clearly way more central to the way he fights than BM's.



Big Mom uses her sword more often than Fujitora, what are you talking about? Fujitora doesn't even have a single named attack that uses his sword while Big Mom has plenty. 



Vagueness said:


> Arguing that BM is legitmately a better swordsman than Zoro just proves how silly and disingenuous these debates get tbh.



Then name a single feat that Zoro has that's better than Ikkoku. Shouldn't be too hard if you think Zoro is a better swordsman than Big Mom.


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## CaptainCommanderRenji (Aug 27, 2022)

A Optimistic said:


> Yes Big Mom is a better swordsman than Zoro. What can Zoro do that's comparable to Ikkoku? And Oda considers a DF user like Fujitora to be a swordsman.


I wouldn't compare Fujitora to Big Mom. Fujitora seems like u guy who has been a sword master for decades and he only got his DF recently.


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## A Optimistic (Aug 27, 2022)

CaptainCommanderRenji said:


> I wouldn't compare Fujitora to Big Mom. Fujitora seems like u guy who has been a sword master for decades and he only got his DF recently.



Fujitora doesn't have a single named sword attack and has never actually damaged anyone with his blade. Big Mom has numerous sword named sword attacks and has some of the best sword feats in the series.

Big Mom is more of a swordsman than Fujitora is tbh.


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## Corax (Aug 27, 2022)

It is the sum of swordsman abilities. Not like swordsmen aren't allowed to use haki or kick or punch. We have seen a lot of kicks and punches from swordsmen in this manga,a all swordsmen who can use haki use it in every fight.


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## Forcer (Aug 27, 2022)

2. would be the most correct but I want to point out something, specially regarding the df part.
One thing is using the fruit to help your swordsmanship and another is using the swordsmanship to enhance the df.

For example even tho Law has swordsmanship training and uses a sword his fighting style clearly revolves around his df. So I can't consider him a swordsman.

Other case would be that Big Mom also has swords skills and even uses it in combat but that's clearly just a secondary thing. I wouldnt call her a swordsman but more of a versitile fighter as she also uses her fruit and she is also a brawler.

So I would disqualify this two from being called swordsman, at least in the sense of fighters that Mihawk and Zoro and looking for.

Other thing would be Kaku for example that was trying to use his df to improve his swordsmanship. Even tho he uses a df I don't think Zoro would disqualify him from being a swordsman.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tenma (Aug 27, 2022)

FWIW Shanks is described as a Dai Kengo (Great Swordsman) while I doubt sonewhat like Law and Big Mom would ever be described as such


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## Mihawk (Aug 27, 2022)

I like how people who argue against Swordsmen always move the goal posts.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 27, 2022)

Vagueness said:


> This makes no sense to me. Are we really gonna pretend like BM is a more skilled swordsman then Zoro if she were to beat him with all her DF bullshit because she also wields napoleon?
> 
> There's clearly a difference between someone who's entire fighting style revolves around sword techniques and a DF user who simply uses a sword as an auxiliary tool.


Let’s say Zoro beats Mihawk and becomes WSS… Then afterwards Shiryu beats Zoro… Shiryu who is a swordsman that has a df… Will Zoro NOT lose his WSS title when Shiryu beats him?

will it matter that Shiryu had a df?


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 27, 2022)

Forcer said:


> Zoro would disqualify him from being a swordsman.


Is it up to Zoro to “disqualify” people?

For example if Zoro hears the Shiryu beat Mihawk, would Zoro simply disqualify Shiryu and himself decide that Mihawk is still WSS and Shiryu doesn’t matter after beating him because he has a df?

I think the moment a swordsman wins a fight against another swordsman, NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES… Even if he wins by throwing down his swords, and then shooting haki tentacles, that swordsman is in fact the stronger one

If Mihawk loses to Fujitora or Shiryu or Law, that’s it… He will simply NOT be WSS anymore


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## Conquistad0r (Aug 27, 2022)

Ofcourse it's option 1.
And Zoro, who's entire growth in the manga has been in Haki & strength, is not a swordsman anymore.

Mihawk really pulled a fast one on Zoro. When Zoro asked him to teach him the "Way of the Sword", he thought Zoro Haki and made sure Zoro can never become the WSS because it's about skills.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 27, 2022)

Mihawk when meeting Zoro: "If you were a competent swordsman you could tell the difference between us without fighting" aka "If you were a competent swordsman you'd have a good CoO"
Mihawk when training Zoro "You must master CoA if you are to become a decent swordsman"

OL: ACktuAlLy hAkI iS a SePaRaTe SkilL

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3


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## bil02 (Aug 27, 2022)

In One piece? The art to use your abilities with your sword.


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## Conquistad0r (Aug 27, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Mihawk when meeting Zoro: "If you were a competent swordsman you could tell the difference between us without fighting" aka "If you were a competent swordsman you'd have a good CoO"
> Mihawk when training Zoro "You must master CoA if you are to become a decent swordsman"
> 
> OL: ACktuAlLy hAkI iS a SePaRaTe SkilL


As if brawlers, club users, df users, martial artists, gunmen all don't use Haki to enhance their existing fighting style....

Haki is simply used to enhance a fighting style. If someone says Mihawk's swordsmanship surpassed Shanks, the obvious implication is that it's his swordsmanship while being enhanced by Mihawk's haki surpassed Shanks' own.

Only in this fandom would people be coping about something so obvious even after the author comes out and spells it out.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 5 | Informative 1


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## bil02 (Aug 27, 2022)

spawn3 said:


> Why would the fight be about parrying and attacking at 45 degree angles?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Conquistad0r (Aug 27, 2022)

Denjiro's Vivre Card: "*His Swordsmanship is the GREATEST among the Red Scabbards.*"

Tell me bros, what does this mean... does this mean that Denjiro is the strongest Scabbard (except Sulong Dukes ofc) or does that mean that he can Parry, Thrust & Maintain Distance better than the other Scabbards.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 5


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## Karma (Aug 27, 2022)

I see it as between 1 and 2

Swordskill is just sword skill, however a swordsman will use other outlets like haki or df powers to improve it.

The catch is that a swordsman will do the same for their overall power with the blade. Just look at Kaku who detailed how much stronger his sword techniques got with his new df


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## Ezekjuninor (Aug 27, 2022)

Regardless of what it is, Oda wouldn't say Mihawk's swordsmanship exceeds Shanks' if Shanks was not a swordsman. The next line then confirms Mihawk as the WSS.

Also, the answer is 2. Swordsmanship skill has been pretty much used to depict a swordsman's strength in One piece.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Lawliet (Aug 27, 2022)

Conquistad0r said:


> Denjiro's Vivre Card: "*His Swordsmanship is the GREATEST among the Red Scabbards.*"
> 
> Tell me bros, what does this mean... does this mean that Denjiro is the strongest Scabbard (except Sulong Dukes ofc) or does that mean that he can Parry, Thrust & Maintain Distance better than the other Scabbards.


Yes, it was shown to us that Denjiro is the strongest Scabbard in the Manga.  He is for sure stronger than Kinemon, Okiku and Kanjuro who were left in the dust for 20 years.

He is for sure stronger than Kawamatsu who was a prisoner for 15 years?
That only leaves Izou who doesn't use a sword, and Ashura who was sleeping and robbing citizens for 20 years instead of training behind vengeance, which is what Denjiro was doing. As for Neko, he doesn't look like a swordsman to me. Inu? I'd give the edge to Denjiro as well, without Solung of course.


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## Conquistad0r (Aug 27, 2022)

Lawliet said:


> Yes, it was shown to us that Denjiro is the strongest Scabbard in the Manga.  He is for sure stronger than Kinemon, Okiku and Kanjuro who were left in the dust for 20 years.
> 
> He is for sure stronger than Kawamatsu who was a prisoner for 15 years?
> That only leaves Izou who doesn't use a sword, and Ashura who was sleeping and robbing citizens for 20 years instead of training behind vengeance, which is what Denjiro was doing. As for Neko, he doesn't look like a swordsman to me. Inu? I'd give the edge to Denjiro as well, without Solung of course.


IMO, he is for sure stronger than all the scabbards with the only exception being the Sulong Dukes.

All the Scabbards who time travelled are by default inferior since they didnt grow.
Which leaves Izo, Kawamatsu, Ashura and the Mink Dukes.
Izo is a Veteran/Tobi Roppo class fighter in the WBPs. Ashura Douji & the Dukes are practically equals (this was even emphasized in the manga iirc) and are a tad bit below Jack imo. They all make Jack look like a fool in their introductions as well.

We also have Ashura hyping up Denjiro as a "Demon with the blade" during the start of the raid where he reveals himself. I think I can place him over Ashura Doji. Plus he simply has better feats, being able to slap away Zoro's named moves like it was nothing & clash with him.

That leaves him being only inferior to the Dukes in Sulong. Which makes sense with the VC hyping him with the line "His Swordsmanship is the Greatest in the Scabbards."

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 27, 2022)

@Seraphoenix nice poll

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Dunno (Aug 27, 2022)

When he specifically mentions sword skills, it refers to how good the characters are at using the sword in particular. When he refers to strength, which he does in the same sentence, he refers to their overall abilities. The significance of this statement is that it once again reinforces the fact that Shanks is a swordsman, which given that we know that Mihawk is the strongest character classified as a swordsman, also means that Mihawk is stronger than him.

Swordsmanship is not the same as sword skills though. Swordsmanship includes sword skills, but also all of the other stuff needed to fight well with a sword.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gunners (Aug 27, 2022)

Is Gear 4 Luffy smacked part 1 Zoro with a sword, would that make him the better swordsman?


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## Sablés (Aug 27, 2022)

Gunners said:


> Is Gear 4 Luffy


Not a swordsman.
Shanks is a swordsman.

Move on.


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## Perrin (Aug 27, 2022)

The boat daz bones travels on


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## Mob (Aug 27, 2022)

Swordmanship is the way of life, sword is part of you and not just a tool yada yada


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## Sir Curlyhat (Aug 27, 2022)

_If Oda wanted to say Mihawk is stronger the line would have been "Mihawk is stronger".

Saying that Mihawk's skill with the sword is better instead means that there's a distinction between the two.

That doesn't mean that this is evidence of the opposite and Mihawk is weaker, just that Oda does not want the line "Mihawk is stronger than Shanks" to be there and end the discussion of who is stronger between the two, as that's something that remains unresolved within the verse as well since their duels remain unsetled._

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Aug 27, 2022)

Not even Oda knows at this point.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Canute87 (Aug 27, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> Mods please don't merge this as it needs to be a separate discussion.
> 
> In this chapter Brannew (Not Oda  ) gives us his opinion that Mihawk has greater swordsmanship/sword skills than Shanks. What does he mean by this?:
> 1. Only specific techniques in swordsmanship like parrying, thrusting, maintaining distance, etc
> ...


Mihawk can perform  sword skills that quire both hands to hold.

Zaraki taught us this in bleach.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## 9TalesOfDestruction (Aug 27, 2022)

Well it's 1 and 2 minus DF abilities.


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## Oda Report (Aug 27, 2022)

spawn3 said:


> The problem with interpretation 1 is that all of Zoro's improvements as a swordsman are from things in option 2.
> 
> How does Zoro get stronger?
> By learning how to cut steel (Haki)
> ...



Thank you for putting on a clinic for the uninitiated. 

Thread is over.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Aug 27, 2022)

CaptainCommanderRenji said:


> I wouldn't compare Fujitora to Big Mom. Fujitora seems like u guy who has been a sword master for decades and he only got his DF recently.



BM has been using a Sword since the Rocks days.


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## Gohara (Aug 27, 2022)

I think it refers specifically to swordsmanship techniques. And when I say techniques I'm not referring to attacks but rather technical ability to use a sword. If all of the things in option 2 were included then I don't see why Oda wouldn't just have them say Mihawk is outright the stronger character. That the distinction was even made to say superior in skill tells me Mihawk has better swordsmanship technique, but this doesn't tell us for sure who the more powerful fighter is. Even if Oda intends for them to be equal, he had a reason for making this distinction, which at least would be to keep us interested in who's actually more powerful as a whole.

At least, that's my speculation. If someone tells me that person A is a better chef than person B. Sure, things like physical strength and stamina are in some way involved in being a chef. But in a case where both are physically strong and have good stamina but one is physically stronger and has more stamina than the one who is actually superior in chef based knowledge and application of that knowledge, the other is still a superior chef in skill regardless of the other being physically stronger and having more stamina.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Aug 27, 2022)

To be fair Big Mom doesn't use skill when it comes to her sword attacks. It's basically just pure raw power.


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## Oda Report (Aug 27, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> To be fair Big Mom doesn't use skill when it comes to her sword attacks. It's basically just pure raw power.



So does swordsman like Mihawk and shanks.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Aug 27, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> So does swordsman like Mihawk and shanks.



One would assume AdCoC application is considered a skill.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## T.D.A (Aug 27, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> Mods please don't merge this as it needs to be a separate discussion.
> 
> In this chapter Brannew (Not Oda  ) gives us his opinion that Mihawk has greater swordsmanship/sword skills than Shanks. What does he mean by this?:
> 1. Only specific techniques in swordsmanship like parrying, thrusting, maintaining distance, etc
> ...


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## Oda Report (Aug 27, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> One would assume AdCoC application is considered a skill.



That Ice berg feat was just raw power.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Aug 27, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> That Ice berg feat was just raw power.



I didn't say Shanks and Mihawk didn't have raw power. I said Big Mom doesn't apply skill in hers, at least for the most part. 

Don't be daft.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Oda Report (Aug 27, 2022)

"A sword without grace is not a powerful sword." 

Mihawk giving game back in east blue.


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## deltaniner (Aug 27, 2022)

Oda doesn't see a difference between sword skill and sword power. He's a mangaka, not some sort of historical scholar of sword techniques.

Name me a _single_ instance in which someone who's a weaker swordsman is "more skilled" than the stronger swordsman.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Oda Report (Aug 27, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> I didn't say Shanks and Mihawk didn't have raw power. I said Big Mom doesn't apply skill in hers, at least for the most part.
> 
> Don't be daft.



Sorry for discussion a story with ya man. 

I'm just noting that Mihawk and shanks can do both because they are that skilled while Big Mom is lacking. Same can be said when it comes to purple tiger.


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## Canute87 (Aug 27, 2022)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> To be fair Big Mom doesn't use skill when it comes to her sword attacks. It's basically just pure raw power.


Because she's never had to.  What's the point of trying to redirect a bullet with a sword when a fucking grenade launcher does jack shit.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Aug 27, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> Mods please don't merge this as it needs to be a separate discussion.
> 
> In this chapter Brannew (Not Oda  ) gives us his opinion that Mihawk has greater swordsmanship/sword skills than Shanks. What does he mean by this?:
> 1. Only specific techniques in swordsmanship like parrying, thrusting, maintaining distance, etc
> ...


Tradition forms and skills using the Sword. This was made clear in the King vs Zoro fight

Reactions: Like 1


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 27, 2022)

Gohara said:


> technical ability to use a sword


What does this mean then?


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 27, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Tradition forms and skills using the Sword. This was made clear in the King vs Zoro fight


So what are “traditional forms and skills”

For example does Zoro pulling how own spirit out his body, manifesting swords out of his spirit, and then cutting people with his spirit (Ashura) count as “traditional forms and skills”


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## Sablés (Aug 27, 2022)

Zoro has no problem biting out people's throats, punching them, kicking them, or throwing buildings at them.
Zoro also recognizes Cabaji's whole slew of circus antics as swordsmanship.

Anyone who tries to limit swordsmanship to "tradition" is a liar. We have no parameters to determine where swordsmanship ends.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 7


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## Sablés (Aug 27, 2022)

Posting for those who might not remember that fight


*Spoiler*: __ 
















Everything Cabaji did, Zoro did not complain about or dismiss as unfair or call it off. Rather he accepted that Cabaji called himself a swordsman and that he would not lose to anyone who did.  As far as One Piece is concerned, if you are called a  swordsman, anything is fair game. What matters is winning and Cabaji was too damn weak an opponent.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Turrin (Aug 27, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> So what are “traditional forms and skills”
> 
> For example does Zoro pulling how own spirit out his body, manifesting swords out of his spirit, and then cutting people with his spirit (Ashura) count as “traditional forms and skills”


We don’t really know, because Oda left it Ambiguous. But I would assume most Sword Based skills fall under this


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Zoro has no problem biting out people's throats, punching them, kicking them, or throwing buildings at them.
> Zoro also recognizes Cabaji's whole slew of circus antics as swordsmanship.




When zoro says he's willing to bite out Kings throat he's saying he's willing to do anything including abandoning swordsmanship to beat king since he's responding to king also not being a swordsman.
Against Mr1 this was also the case and Mr 1 said he wasn't a swordsman either.


Zoro and Cabaji both recognized Cabaji wasn't using real swordsmanship, that's why Zoro kicked his unicycle out from under him and then Cabaji went "okay time for real swordsmanship"



There's clearly a recognition of "real swordsmanship" vs swordsmanship with tricks throughout the series. The only thing is zoro is willing to deviate from swordsmanship to fight opponents who aren't using it or are using it with a bunch of other tricks.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> When zoro says he's willing to bite out Kings throat he's saying he's willing to do anything including abandoning swordsmanship to beat king since he's responding to king also not being a swordsman.


Zoro never said that he would give up swordsmanship. He never said King wasn't a swordsman either. Kindly leave the inferences at the door.

King never said he wasn't a swordsman. Zoro said King "never claimed" to be one, so he cannot be faulted to any degree for an unorthodox style. Zoro has used punches, kicks, and thrown buildings at his enemies before. In battles that were explicitly about swordsmen.


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Zoro and Cabaji both recognized Cabaji wasn't using real swordsmanship


They never said this either.
Cabaji said he wasn't using his "real" skills yet, which can just translate to him not going all out.

Zoro didn't care. So long as Cabaji called himself a swordsman, he wasn't going to lose. Zoro fully accepted every trick Cabaji pulled out of his ass. The means didn't matter to Zoro, only the end result. A swordsman with tricks, is still a swordsman. Winning is all that matters in the end.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Zoro never said that. He never said King wasn't a swordsman either. Kindly leave the inferences at the door.
> King never said he wasn't a swordsman. Zoro said King "never claimed" to be one, so he cannot be faulted to any degree for an unorthodox style. Zoro has used punches, kicks, and thrown buildings at his enemies before. In battles that were explicitly about swordsmen.



Bruh... if someone says "You never claimed to be a swordsman" that necessarily means they aren't swordsman or they have done something that has deviated from swordsmanship in a way you doubt their status as one. Mentioning orthodox techniques also means you need to adhere to them to be a proper swordsman.




Sablés said:


> They never said this either.
> Cabaji said he wasn't using his "real" skills yet, which can just translate to him not going all out.
> Zoro didn't care. So long as Cabaji called himself a swordsman, he wasn't going to lose. Zoro fully accepted every trick Cabaji pulled out of his ass.



He acccepted it as first, and he then got tired of them and kicked the cycle from under him. After that there was a mention of real swordsmanship confirming there is such a thing as that. No its not cabaji saying he'll use his real skills or that he was holding back, its simply him using his swordsmanship alone, sans tricks. That's the entire purpose of that exchange, to distinguish swordsmanship with tricks to real swordsmanship

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Bruh... if someone says "You never claimed to be a swordsman" that necessarily means they aren't swordsman or they have done something that has deviated from swordsmanship in a way you doubt their status as one. Mentioning orthodox techniques also means you need to adhere to them to be a proper swordsman.


The phrase on the tin means a positive claim has not been made. It does not affirm a fact beyond that. To insinuate that is working on the basis of an implication, which is neither a statement nor a fact in of itself.

And  mentioning orthodox techniques means you need to adhere to them to be a "traditional" swordsmen. Zoro has fought outside those means before. So if Zoro isn't a swordsman, go right ahead and make the claim. If anything, all the King scenario does is bring attention to what was already obvious. Swordsmen aren't limited in what can they do to get the edge on their opponent.


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> He acccepted it as first


There's no "at first" here. "I will not lose to anyone who calls themselves a swordsman". This never changed. He never went back on it and why would he? Cabaji didn't take his claim as a swordsman back. Cabaji blew fire, used smoke, and attacked with kicks to Zoro's open wound. Cabaji had already used most of his tricks at that point and Zoro had seen it. Still accepted him as a swordsman. Nothing changed beyond the fact that Cabaji was a weakling who stood no chance of winning. Once again proving that skill is synonymous with strength.

Because of course it bloody is. That's the definition.



> the ability to do something well; expertise.





IchijiNijiSanji said:


> After that there was a mention of real swordsmanship





Sablés said:


> Cabaji said he wasn't using his "real" skills yet, which can just translate to him not going all out.


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## Saitama (Aug 28, 2022)

Mostly option 1 with necessary haki from option 2 to cut steel and changing the blade's color.

That's what's meant by sword skill.


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 28, 2022)

Turrin said:


> We don’t really know, because Oda left it Ambiguous. But I would assume most Sword Based skills fall under this


What about cutting steel… is that under this?


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> So what are “traditional forms and skills”
> 
> For example does Zoro pulling how own spirit out his body, manifesting swords out of his spirit, and then cutting people with his spirit (Ashura) count as “traditional forms and skills”



Having more swords doesn't mean you aren't using swordsmanshp.
Mihawk uses 1 sword style, oden uses 2 sword style, Zoro 3 sword, Hachi uses 6 swords, hyouzou 8 swords.
Zoro in asura is just using 9 sword style
I don't think its a disqualifying factor. 

We also don't know what Asura is, it hasn't really been explained at all.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 28, 2022)

> The phrase on the tin means a positive claim has not been made. It does not affirm a fact beyond that. To insinuate that is working on the basis of an implication, which is neither a statement nor a fact in of itself.



The implication was zoro's assumption. His assumption was challenged and in his mind he disqualified king from being a swordsman



> Zoro has fought outside those means before. So if Zoro isn't a swordsman, go right ahead and make the claim.



Zoro is a swordsman. But if his opponent starts using non-swordsman techniques and he gets frustrated he'd respond in kind as well.
This doesn't mean if he's fighting a swordsman who uses swordsmanship alone he'd suddenly start kicking and biting.
Other moves than swordsmanship aren't even his bread and butter and he has no named techniques in that category. 

Its a simple matter of nuance. 




Sablés said:


> And  mentioning orthodox techniques means you need to adhere to them to be a "traditional" swordsmen.



King is calling swordsmanship itself orthodox. That's he isn't a swordsman, he doesn't believe in sticking to it and will openly do other stuff that cannot possibly be classified as such



Sablés said:


> Zoro has fought outside those means before. So if Zoro isn't a swordsman, go right ahead and make the claim. If anything, all the King scenario does is bring attention to what was already obvious. Swordsmen aren't limited in what can they do to get the edge on their opponent.



If zoro beats someone by crushing them with a building he throws at them absolutely no one would consider that swordsmanship bruh how is this hard to understand.  



Sablés said:


> There's no "at first" here. "I will not lose to anyone who calls themselves a swordsman". This never changed. He never went back on it and why would he? Cabaji didn't take his claim as a swordsman back. Cabaji blew fire, used smoke, and attacked with kicks to Zoro's open wound. Cabaji had already used most of his tricks at that point and Zoro had seen it. Still accepted him as a swordsman. Nothing changed beyond the fact that Cabaji was a weakling who stood no chance of winning. Once again proving that skill is synonymous with strength.



There is a "at first" here
The "real swordsmanship" line is not at all about him showing his real skills. Its explicitly put within context of zoro not tolerating Cabaji using his circus acts anymore, after which cabaji stops using them and starts using only swordsmanship for the final clash, there shouldn't be another way of interpreting it unless you take it in a vacuum. And then loses immediately because his sword skills aren't good enough

As this point yall will claim blowing a fireball from your ass that burns a city down is swordsmanship somehow.


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## Oda Report (Aug 28, 2022)

My god all this agenda piece just to try and move shanks out the realm of being a swordsman no matter if he shoots haki beams out his ass. . .dude is a swordsman. 

Didn't Oda post a color.spread of the swordsman of One Piece they where all different and brought there own flavor..


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> The implication was zoro's assumption. His assumption was challenged and in his mind he disqualified king from being a swordsman


Yes, the assumption that was never proven wrong.* Only that Zoro recognized that it was an assumption*. Nowhere is it said that King is disqualified as a swordsman. That is YOUR assumption. Stop taking leaps and read what is actually in the text.


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Zoro is a swordsman. But if his opponent starts using non-swordsman techniques and he gets frustrated he'd respond in kind as well.


Said and shown nowhere. All your opinion.


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> King is calling swordsmanship itself orthodox. That's he isn't a swordsman, he doesn't believe in sticking to it and will openly do other stuff that cannot possibly be classified as such


Nah. King is saying that he doesn't understand sticking to a traditional style.
All that means is that aberrant swordsman can exist, not that he isn't a swordsman whatsoever. Tradition does not have to be adhered to.
That's another leap of logic you've made.


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> If zoro beats someone by crushing them with a building he throws at them absolutely no one would consider that swordsmanship bruh how is this hard to understand.


Did the manga tell you this? Because that is what Zoro did to Mr. 1 who he did not distinguish from a swordsman up to that point.


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> There is a "at first" here


Where did Zoro retract his statement of Cabaji being a swordsman and Zoro saying that he will not lose to someone who calls himself a swordsman. Cite me the scene.
Do not give me your inference. Give me the explicit statement.



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Its explicitly put within context of zoro not tolerating Cabaji using his circus acts anymore, after which cabaji stops using them


Zoro never said Cabaji wasn't a swordsman. 
He solely said that he was tired of fighting with an unworthy opponent.



You extrapolate that to Cabaji not using """"real swordsmanship""", when it can easily just mean (and certainly does) that Zoro is tired of Cabaji's weak ass, who cannot hope to win despite the massive advantage Zoro gave him by slicing his abdomen, along with the tricks Cabaji was using.

No shit Cabaji stopped using tricks. Zoro already saw through everything and kicked his unicycle away. By the time he's ready to go all out, Zoro just one-shots him.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Tenma (Aug 28, 2022)

100% of Zoro's development since the timeskip has revolved around haki (hardening in Dressrossa, haki control for Enma, CoC to defeat King and master his blades, implied black blade in future).

This isn't Kenshin; Oda isn't go into crazy intricate swordplay, haki's the dominant power system so swordsmanship is naturally gonna revolve around it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 28, 2022)

SKILLbros ...

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Oda Report (Aug 28, 2022)

Mihawk deflecting bullets with the tip of Yuru with masterful grace. . .

Have yet to see that feat replicated. 

Judges gave Mihawk a 10, 10, 9 score to Shanks brutish wifi haki display sore of 10, 7, 5.. wonderful swordsmanship of the world's strongest swordsman. He truly is the better swordsman. 

Remarkable display skill.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> h. King is saying that he doesn't understand sticking to a traditional style.
> All that means is that aberrant swordsman can exist, not that he isn't a swordsman whatsoever. Tradition does not have to be adhered to.
> That's another leap of logic you've made.



Its not a leap of logic its as clear as day king punching, using a swordbreaker etc would disqualify him from swordsmanship. Zoro's whole response about biting his throat is in response to that because he's essentially saying "who knows I might give up my fighting style too to win"






Sablés said:


> Did the manga tell you this? Because that is what Zoro did to Mr. 1 who he did not distinguish from a swordsman up to that point.



Zoro never considered Mr 1 to be a swordsman at that point, he only considered him a human sword. He also didn't throw that building in hopes to defeat him, his goal was still being able to cut Mr 1.



Sablés said:


> Where did Zoro retract his statement of Cabaji being a swordsman and Zoro saying that he will not lose to someone who calls himself a swordsman. Cite me the scene.
> Do not give me your inference. Give me the explicit statement.



You can be a swordsman and also be a circus acrobat. Cabaji used them in conjunction. That doesn't mean Cabaji stopped being a swordsman, but it is clear his acrobatics weren't part of swordsmanship and Zoro told him to knock that off by deviating from swordsmanship himself



Sablés said:


> Zoro never said Cabaji wasn't a swordsman.
> He solely said that he was tired of fighting with an unworthy opponent.


Bad translation lol



Sablés said:


> You extrapolate that to Cabaji not using """"real swordsmanship""", when it can easily just mean (and certainly does) that Zoro is tired of Cabaji's weak ass, who cannot hope to win despite the massive advantage Zoro gave him by slicing his abdomen, along with the tricks Cabaji was using.


Only with the bad translation that doesn't reflect the action on panel and doesn't flow as coherently.



Sablés said:


> No shit Cabaji stopped using tricks. Zoro already saw through everything and kicked his unicycle away. By the time he's ready to go all out, Zoro just one-shots him.



Zoro only kicked the unicycle away because started deviating from swordsmanship and he was tired of the non-swordsman style kept throwing in along with sword fighting and responded in kind. 

He could still use his tops or fireballs but Cabaji then stuck to using swordsmanship alone and lost promptly because he wasn't relying on his circus acrobat skills.


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Zoro in asura is just using 9 sword style


You don’t think Zoro’s spirit literally coming out of his body and damaging people is any different from like if that octopus Fishman used 9 swords?


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## Karma (Aug 28, 2022)

deltaniner said:


> Oda doesn't see a difference between sword skill and sword power. He's a mangaka, not some sort of historical scholar of sword techniques.
> 
> Name me a _single_ instance in which someone who's a weaker swordsman is "more skilled" than the stronger swordsman.


Beckman and Yassop?


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> You don’t think Zoro’s spirit literally coming out of his body and damaging people is any different from like if that octopus Fishman used 9 swords?



If his spirit takes the form of more arms with swords, and in practice they function as more swords and arms and he uses sword techniques then no  
I'm not seeing any contradiction, any more so than say a swordsman using a devil fruit to grow more limbs and using XYZ sword style (Onigumo?)


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## savior2005 (Aug 28, 2022)

Visra >= Mihawk > Shanks


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## Conxc (Aug 28, 2022)

Zoro: “can you train me in the way of the sword?”

Mihawk: “sure. No wine until you learn Haki.”

OL: “hAkI hAvE nOtHiNg Do WiTh SoOrD sKiLl”

Reactions: Funny 2 | Creative 1 | GODA 1


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> If his spirit takes the form of more arms with swords, and in practice they function as more swords and arms and he uses sword techniques then no
> I'm not seeing any contradiction, any more so than say a swordsman using a devil fruit to grow more limbs and using XYZ sword style (Onigumo?)


Hmmm so The main thing the constitutes swordsman is simply the ability to cut

not how people cut, or the actual powers associated with how or why they cut, swordsmanship is simply the ability to cut

So you Kaku’s statement that he is in fact a “four sword style” user despite his other two “swords” being rankyaku attacks from his legs that are actually rokushiki martial arts techniques 

The same “As long as the spirit Zoro uses is cutting things”, Kaku is in fact a four sword style user when his legs use a martial arts to cut people

Swordsmanship is the ability to cut… NO MATTER HOW OR WHY OR WHICH METHOD IS APPLIED

Meaning… Haki being used to cut things IS ALSO STILL SWORDSMANSHIP… Right?

Reactions: Like 1


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> Hmmm so The main thing the constitutes swordsman is simply the ability to cut





CoopoNitro7 said:


> Swordsmanship is the ability to cut… NO MATTER HOW OR WHY OR WHICH METHOD IS APPLIED




No swordsmanship is not simply the ability to cut. Its about using swordsman techniques. For example not all bladed weapons count as swordsmanship, like Whitebeards Bisento (unless you're including whitebeard in mihawks title)
Not all fruits granting you the ability to cut constitute swordsmanship either, like Mr 1 the excavator assassin.
Does Doflamingo using his strings to cut up people, slice, dice count as swordsmanship?
Kaku is a strange case, but his yontoryu seemed to be justified in story by his body itself being a weapon and him using it like a sword for sword techniques. Furthermore Kaku has techniques in his giraffe form that aren't compatible with swordsmanship for example his Bigan and him beating the hell out of Zoro with his whip like neck. 
However someone like Marco using his talons to cut people and slice people doesn't seem to count.

Not all cutting techniques and abilities are swordsmanship which should be evident from the idea that not everyone who cuts, even using it as their primary form of damage, is a swordsman. There are some factors relating to the martial art of swordsmanship which go into qualifying something as swordsmanship but not others 

So continuing the above line of thought....



> Meaning… Haki being used to cut things IS ALSO STILL SWORDSMANSHIP… Right?


Haki being used with swordsmanship techniques is still swordsmanship, like wano's ryuo
But this does not preclude cutting techniques using haki from being something other than swordsmanship, and also doesn't preclude there being haki skills that are not compatible with swordsmanship


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> No swordsmanship is not simply the ability to cut. Its about using swordsman techniques. For example not all bladed weapons count as swordsmanship, like Whitebeards Bisento (unless you're including whitebeard in mihawks title)
> Not all fruits granting you the ability to cut constitute swordsmanship either, like Mr 1 the excavator assassin.
> Does Doflamingo using his strings to cut up people, slice, dice count as swordsmanship?
> Kaku is a strange case, but his yontoryu seemed to be justified in story by his body itself being a weapon and him using it like a sword for sword techniques
> ...


So Kaku using his legs and Zoro using his literal spirit to cut people are simply the exceptions to the rules that you MUST have a sword specifically?

Then isn’t haki a cheat code? Remember when Zoro is using Haki to cut Mr.1 in Alabasta, he makes his sword fail to cut a leaf with Haki… And then makes his sword cut steel with Haki… his haki itself overrides the sword and it’s abilities. Suddenly the sword can’t even cut a leaf… And then suddenly the sword can cut steel even though it’s also made of steel and that shouldn’t be possible physically

If the presence of the sword IS he defining feature of swordsmanship then Haki must not be part of swordsmanship because haki overrides the sword itself… It’s Zoro’s haki that cut Mr .1… Not his sword


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> So Kaku using his legs and Zoro using his literal spirit to cut people are simply the exceptions to the rules that you MUST have a sword specifically?


Zoro is using his spirit to manifest swords and limbs. There is no exception there from other toryu's 

Kaku is the exception. Kaku. Which is why I called his case strange and provided the in universe explanation



CoopoNitro7 said:


> Then isn’t haki a cheat code? Remember when Zoro is using Haki to cut Mr.1 in Alabasta, he makes his sword fail to cut a leaf with Haki… And then makes his sword cut steel with Haki… his haki itself overrides the sword and it’s abilities. Suddenly the sword can’t even cut a leaf… And then suddenly the sword can cut steel even though it’s also made of steel and that shouldn’t be possible physically
> 
> If the presence of the sword IS he defining feature of swordsmanship then Haki must not be part of swordsmanship because haki overrides the sword itself… It’s Zoro’s haki that cut Mr .1… Not his sword



We are delving into a territory where I don't think Zoro used Armament Haki back in alabasta because even though he learned how to cut steel, even with flying slashes, he was unable to harm Enel. If you believe zoro was constantly using armament haki preskip, nothing can be done (despite the similar explanation)

Also read my edit i added right before you posted.


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## Turrin (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> What about cutting steel… is that under this?


Seems to be


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Zoro is using his spirit to manifest swords and limbs. There is no exception there from other toryu's
> 
> Kaku is the exception. Kaku. Which is why I called his case strange and provided the in universe explanation
> 
> ...


Zoro’s spirit is still his spirit… It’s Zoro’s spirit that’s cutting people… there isn’t an actual sword there… or do you believe Zoro is manifesting actual matter into being from like the shadow realm or something… Ashura is called an illusion by Kaku… It’s an illusion that is still able to cut him… There is no actual sword there… It’s some kind of spirit or demon energy or some shit

Well the reason Zoro didn’t cut Enel is he didn’t use Haki… Haki is supposed to be activated in order to use it… Zoro did not pause and hear the breath of lightning the way he heard the breath of steel and then actively use Breath of all things to try and cut Enel… hence why he didn’t cut him… Remember it’s called “the breath of all things” and ranges from cutting nothing to everything… So even using the explanation from Alabasta, Zoro should by all means be able to cut lightning,.. And now that we learned that it’s Haki, well then it’s even clearer that he should be able to have done it, if he thought to do it

We are trying to find out what swordsmanship is…  if Haki is the main reason a swordsman can cut steel, even supplanting what sword he has or even his own physical ability, then isn’t Haki by nature above swordsmanship 

Your form or techniques or whatever doesn’t matter if you don’t have the haki…  and Haki is good enough to cut steel no matter how poor your form or techniques are… And the person who can cut steel is the better swordsman right?


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 28, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Seems to be


But cutting steel is a haki ability. As described by Hyogoro, Zoro cutting steel pre time skip was just Ryuo


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## Gohara (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> What does this mean then?


Form and precision performing techniques, stance, knowledge of techniques and how to perform them, knowledge of styles, the ability to apply any of the knowledge when any situation permits, discipline, etc


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> Zoro’s spirit is still his spirit… It’s Zoro’s spirit that’s cutting people… there isn’t an actual sword there… or do you believe Zoro is manifesting actual matter into being from like the shadow realm or something… Ashura is called an illusion by Kaku… It’s an illusion that is still able to cut him… There is no actual sword there… It’s some kind of spirit or demon energy or some shit



If he's green lanterning  arms and swords those are still being used as swords, functionally he's still using them to do sword techniques the same as any fishman who'd use 8 swords. 



CoopoNitro7 said:


> Well the reason Zoro didn’t cut Enel is he didn’t use Haki… Haki is supposed to be activated in order to use it… Zoro did not pause and hear the breath of lightning the way he heard the breath of steel and then actively use Breath of all things to try and cut Enel… hence why he didn’t cut him… Remember it’s called “the breath of all things” and ranges from cutting nothing to everything… So even using the explanation from Alabasta, Zoro should by all means be able to cut lightning,.. And now that we learned that it’s Haki, well then it’s even clearer that he should be able to have done it, if he thought to do it



Hearing the breath or rhythm of things hasn't ever been how armament haki or even ryou was used. Luffy wasn't listening to the breath of kaidos scales to be able to punch through them. 
We don't exactly know what that technique zoro used back in alabasta. It could've been some form of Observation haki but then again typical observation haki doesn't detect inanimate objects the way zoro was able to detect rocks and his swords

The closest I've seen to something like that is what Sabo used to destroy the Colosseum ring back in dressrosa by finding the core or whatever. But those mechanics still seem unexplained. 


CoopoNitro7 said:


> Your form or techniques or whatever doesn’t matter if you don’t have the haki…  and Haki is good enough to cut steel no matter how poor your form or techniques are… And the person who can cut steel is the better swordsman right?



The way you describe using haki is something where he has to careful manage his haki and match something about it to the rhythm of something about the steel, and becoming one with your blade. Having poor form or technique in such a case would mean you would fail which is something completely distinct or unexplored about how haki works.


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 28, 2022)

Gohara said:


> Form and precision performing techniques, stance, knowledge of techniques and how to perform them, knowledge of styles, the ability to apply any of the knowledge when any situation permits, discipline, etc


Let’s go back to king, assume King never said he was not a swordsman but the fight between King and Zoro ended after King overpowered Zoro with his sword that first time… Who would you call the “stronger swordsman”? Not “better swordsman”… the ”STRONGER SWORDSMAN”

As in Zoro uses all those thing you named above, but King pulls out his sword FOR FUN, Clashes with Zoro ONCE, overpowers him completely and cuts Zoro CLEAN IN HALF… And Zoro died instantaneously from blood loss and Organ failure and a raptured spine

which of the two combatants would be called “the stronger swordsman”? Taking into account the fact that It was Haki, CONQUEROR’S HAKI, that prevented this outcome… Not anything you listed above… Not knowledge of styles, discipline or stances… ONLY HAKI saved Zoro

Anha, so would King not be the stronger swordsman?


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> The way you describe using haki is something where he has to careful manage his haki and match something about it to the rhythm of something about the steel, and becoming one with your blade. Having poor form or technique in such a case would mean you would fail which is something completely distinct or unexplored about how haki works.


Let me rephrase this… Give Post Udon Luffy, Nidai Kitetsu and Have East Blue Zoro with Wado Ichimonji… the two of them decide to cut steel as a contest… Luffy pours his haki into the sword (we know Luffy can put haki into objects as we see him out haki in his sandals) and he focuses his Ryuo and cuts the steel clean… Then East Blue Zoro flops using all his “techniques”…

Is East Blue Zoro a better swordsman than Post Udon Luffy?


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## Gohara (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> Let’s go back to king, assume King never said he was not a swordsman but the fight between King and Zoro ended after King overpowered Zoro with his sword that first time… Who would you call the “stronger swordsman”? Not “better swordsman”… the ”STRONGER SWORDSMAN”
> 
> As in Zoro uses all those thing you named above, but King pulls out his sword FOR FUN, Clashes with Zoro ONCE, overpowers him completely and cuts Zoro CLEAN IN HALF… And Zoro died instantaneously from blood loss and Organ failure and a raptured spine
> 
> ...


In my mind stronger swordsman when used by Oda has always meant better at using swordplay, and in the most recent chapter it’s referred to as better swordsman/more skilled.

If King win a match against Zoro not through swordplay but through haki, then I’d say he’s the more powerful character but not the more powerful or superior swordsman


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## Turrin (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> But cutting steel is a haki ability. As described by Hyogoro, Zoro cutting steel pre time skip was just Ryuo


Yeah and Haki can be part of the Traditional Sword Forms and Techniques. Just like physical strength is. The difference comes when Haki is used for skills outside these Traditional Sword Forms/Skills.

For example Zoro using Haki to cut Steel with a Sword skill is fine. Zoro picking up a Gun and Coating a Bullet with Haki, isn’t.

Think of Haki like muscle, it can be applied within the rules of that profession.


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## Gohara (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> Let me rephrase this… Give Post Udon Luffy, Nidai Kitetsu and Have East Blue Zoro with Wado Ichimonji… the two of them decide to cut steel as a contest… Luffy pours his haki into the sword (we know Luffy can put haki into objects as we see him out haki in his sandals) and he focuses his Ryuo and cuts the steel clean… Then East Blue Zoro flops using all his “techniques”…
> 
> Is East Blue Zoro a better swordsman than Post Udon Luffy?


This is part of my point. Simply being a powerful character using a sword and being a really skilled swordsman are different things. Whitebeard could technically be called a swordsman, he uses a weapon technically classified as a type of sword. He’s stronger than mihawk, but he’s not the stronger/superior swordsman.

it’d make the title meaningless if character A with strong haki but average swordsmanship could defeat character B who’s a great swordsman but has no knowledge of haki, and then we said because character A is stronger and is technically a swordsman they’re the stronger or superior swordsman


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 28, 2022)

Gohara said:


> In my mind stronger swordsman when used by Oda has always meant better at using swordplay, and in the most recent chapter it’s referred to as better swordsman/more skilled.
> 
> If King win a match against Zoro not through swordplay but through haki, then I’d say he’s the more powerful character but not the more powerful or superior swordsman


No, I didn’t say “king won because of haki”… I said King won because he overpowered Zoro and cut him half… In fact it’s the other way around… Zoro is the one that won because of Haki… Remember… Zoro won only BECAUSE of haki

on the topic of swordplay, which character in the story has ever been considered the stronger swordsman simply because of their swordplay… Has Zoro ever LOST to someone and then said “we’ll it’s fine that I lost because I have better swordplay”


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> Let me rephrase this… Give Post Udon Luffy, Nidai Kitetsu and Have East Blue Zoro with Wado Ichimonji… the two of them decide to cut steel as a contest… Luffy pours his haki into the sword (we know Luffy can put haki into objects as we see him out haki in his sandals) and he focuses his Ryuo and cuts the steel clean… Then East Blue Zoro flops using all his “techniques”…
> 
> Is East Blue Zoro a better swordsman than Post Udon Luffy?



Im trying to convey how haki is used by luffy and how cutting steel from alabasta are completely different techniques and seemingly different power systems that have nothing in common. This hypothetical is interesting but it deviates from whether it was haki or not that used used back in alabasta or if the system of haki being used by swordsman is something completely distinct


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 28, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Yeah and Haki can be part of the Traditional Sword Forms and Techniques. Just like physical strength is. The difference comes when Haki is used for skills outside these Traditional Sword Forms/Skills.
> 
> For example Zoro using Haki to cut Steel with a Sword skill is fine. Zoro picking up a Gun and Coating a Bullet with Haki, isn’t.
> 
> Think of Haki like muscle, it can be applied within the rules of that profession.


So what decides a “better swordsman”… Is it simply the swordsman who wins the fight or is it the swordsman who uses the most techniques and traditions forms and all that


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Its not a leap of logic* its as clear as day* king punching, using a swordbreaker etc would disqualify him from swordsmanship. Zoro's whole response about biting his throat is in response to that because he's essentially saying "who knows I might give up my fighting style too to win"


It's not "clear as day" that's the very argument we're current having, so it does not substitute evidence.
It is a leap of logic because you are going beyond what is stated and demanding your interpretation of one IMPLICATION is evidence. It is not. Nothing is "essentially being said". All that is obvious is that Zoro acknowledges that he made an assumption that did not have to be true. Based on something Zoro himself has done.


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Zoro never considered Mr 1 to be a swordsman at that point, he only considered him a human sword. He also didn't throw that building in hopes to defeat him, his goal was still being able to cut Mr 1.


Wrong.



Mr. 1 had to go out of his way to state that he was not a swordsman, while Zoro challenged the idea mockingly.



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> You can be a swordsman and also be a circus acrobat. Cabaji used them in conjunction. That doesn't mean Cabaji stopped being a swordsman, but it is clear his acrobatics weren't part of swordsmanship and Zoro told him to knock that off by deviating from swordsmanship himself


There it is again. "It's clear".
That is not evidence.
Zoro never told him to knock off what wasn't swordsmanship
Cabaji never separated his acrobat arts from swordsmanship.
All of this is made up by you.

If we're going to start making wild claims and ignore evidence, including *request for evidence*, we are done here. I'm not interested in fanon.



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Bad translation lol


Find me another translation, and explain why that's the correct one then.


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Zoro only kicked the unicycle away because started deviating from swordsmanship


Said nowhere.
Cabaji was using it from the bloody start.
Zoro didn't care because Cabaji called himself a swordsman, and he said he wouldn't lose to ANYONE that calls themselves a swordsman . Not anyone who only fights with """"pure swordsmanship""" (not stated to exist in the text/fanmade term]) that calls themselves a swordsman. Meaning the capacity for victory is what defines the quality of a swordsman.

Is it really that hard reading and accepting what is stated on-panel without inserting your opinion and calling it fact?

Reactions: Like 3


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## Turrin (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> So what decides a “better swordsman”… Is it simply the swordsman who wins the fight or is it the swordsman who uses the most techniques and traditions forms and all that


It’s who has the better skill in Traditional Forms/Techniques. But that person will also typically win the fight as well, unless they are facing someone who has Skills outside Swordsmanship that are on a high enough level to effect the outcome of the fight.

For example. Kizaru has displayed high level Swordsmanship against Raleigh, but he has also displayed high level abilities outside Swordsmanship like Lazers and shit. There is for sure a chance he could loose to someone in a Sword Duel, but still beat them by keeping his distance and firing Lazers. But that wouldn’t make him a better Swordsman, just more versatile or stronger overall.

On the flip side of this. You may have a character like Cabaji who has a bunch of other skills outside Swordsmanship, but all of those skills are much weaker then his best Sword Skills. So if Cabaji Can’t beat someone with his Sword Skills he is likely just going to loose to that person outright.
—-
What matters here really is if Swordsmanship is by far a characters strongest skills or if they have other skills >= Swordsmanship


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Im trying to convey how haki is used by luffy and how cutting steel from alabasta are completely different techniques and seemingly different power systems that have nothing in common. This hypothetical is interesting but it deviates from whether it was haki or not that used used back in alabasta or if the system of haki being used by swordsman is something completely distinct


 oh I’m not arguing about Zoro the Alabasta thing… I’m fully convinced it’s haki… Aside from the fact that Hyogoro basically said it is, the person who taught it Zoro is literally from Wano… Would be random if two Wano citizens developed two different abilities that do the exact same thing for some reason… So this is foregone conclusion


My point around “stronger swordsman” is getting back to cutting… if Post Udon Luffy can cut steel with a sword, and East blue Zoro cannot, then Post Udon Luffy is the better swordsman between them


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 28, 2022)

Turrin said:


> It’s who has the better skill in Traditional Forms/Techniques. But that person will also typically win the fight as well, unless they are facing someone who has Skills outside Swordsmanship that are on a high enough level to effect the outcome of the fight.
> 
> For example. Kizaru has displayed high level Swordsmanship against Raleigh, but he has also displayed high level abilities outside Swordsmanship like Lazers and shit. There is for sure a chance he could loose to someone in a Sword Duel, but still beat them by keeping his distance and firing Lazers. But that wouldn’t make him a better Swordsman, just more versatile or stronger overall.
> 
> ...


If two swordsmen fight, and one has hundreds of traditional skills and forms, and the other is simply physically stronger than faster and just blitzes and cuts the “skilled” swordsman down immediately… Who is the “stronger swordsman”?


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## Gohara (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> No, I didn’t say “king won because of haki”… I said King won because he overpowered Zoro and cut him half… In fact it’s the other way around… Zoro is the one that won because of Haki… Remember… Zoro won only BECAUSE of haki
> 
> on the topic of swordplay, which character in the story has ever been considered the stronger swordsman simply because of their swordplay… Has Zoro ever LOST to someone and then said “we’ll it’s fine that I lost because I have better swordplay”


You’re right I misread, my bad. But my point is the same either way. A character can win against a swordsman for other reasons and not be the superior swordsman because there are more factors and styles of powers at play.

We’ve rarely seen a swordsman vs. swordsman clash in one piece, which is a shame. And almost any time we have, little else was at play besides swordsmanship and/or the match was offscreen. What I will say is when Marco called for someone to fend off Mihawk, it was vista. Not himself or Jozu.

Besides, when has anyone been called a better swordsman when the skill itself was less than their opponent but they won because they are physically stronger and better at haki?

And Zoro has almost never lost a match to anyone. Mihawk and Kuma. And Zoro not being okay with losing doesn’t in some way mean he thinks his opponent must be a better swordsman.


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## Gohara (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> If two swordsmen fight, and one has hundreds of traditional skills and forms, and the other is simply physically stronger than faster and just blitzes and cuts the “skilled” swordsman down immediately… Who is the “stronger swordsman”?


Why does them wielding a sword make them a better swordsman just because they were so much physically stronger and superior at haki? I mean if you replaced that sword with another weapon the same result would happen


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

Gohara said:


> Why does them wielding a sword make them a better swordsman just because they were so much physically stronger and superior at haki?


Because they are the swordsman who won.


Gohara said:


> I mean if you replaced that sword with another weapon the same result would happen


Then they wouldn't be a swordsman. Unless they are stated to be, then it's fine regardless.
Do you think technique is divorced from physical abilities and haki or something?


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 28, 2022)

Gohara said:


> t’d make the title meaningless if character A with strong haki but average swordsmanship could defeat character B who’s a great swordsman but has no knowledge of haki, and then we said because character A is stronger and is technically a swordsman they’re the stronger or superior swordsman


Why would this make the title meaningless exactly? The mechanism of the story dictates that ZOR MUST WIN to become WSS right?

is there a world in which Oda can write Zoro vs Mihawk that Zoro LOSES the fight but ends up WSS because “skills and techniques”?

is that mechanically possible?

You are the one claiming that this situation somehow makes the title meaningless… No I don’t think it’s meaningless… I think it’s what the story has ALWAYS BEEN…

Have you noticed that almost every single person Zoro fights has these “extra abilities” you want to ignore… You simply ignore them because Zoro won the fights…. Zoro himself has shit like his spirit coming out his body and attack people with Ashura

Since it’s impossible for Oda to write Zoro vs Mihawk with Zoro losing but still claiming the title, it must mean winning the fight is THE PRIMARY decider

Same way it’s impossible for Zoro to win the fight but Mihawk keeps the title because of “techniques and skills”

the strongest swordsman title is held by the person that can defeat every single other swordsman in combat… Seems clear enough to me

What you are actually trying to discern is “who is a swordsman”


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

chi


Conquistad0r said:


> Ofcourse it's option 1.
> And Zoro, who's entire growth in the manga has been in Haki & strength, is not a swordsman anymore.
> 
> Mihawk really pulled a fast one on Zoro. When Zoro asked him to teach him the "Way of the Sword", he thought Zoro Haki and made sure Zoro can never become the WSS because it's about skills.


Mihawks suffering from success

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Its all of the above. Except devil fruit because one could be using a sword to aid their devil fruit such as kaido, big mommy, whitebeard and law.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 28, 2022)

Gohara said:


> Why does them wielding a sword make them a better swordsman just because they were so much physically stronger and superior at haki? I mean if you replaced that sword with another weapon the same result would happen


I mean sure, if Mihawk in East Blue decided to Punch Zoro instead of using hi cross knife, and then instantaneously one shot Zoro through a speed blitz and haki, Would Mihawk lose his WSS title just because he decided to not even use his sword and won so handedly

Between Swordless Mihawk and East Blue Zoro… Would you consider East Blue Zoro the “stronger swordsman” simply because he used a sword and yet was too weak to even make Swordless mihawk use his Cross Knife to beat him?


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

Another thing. What major victory has Zoro ever had where the other swordsman didn't have some gimmick going on?  Ryuma? At this point, "swordsmanship" might as well be a minute fraction of Zoro's battles. No wonder he's traveled along the hakiman path.


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 28, 2022)

Gohara said:


> A character can win against a swordsman for other reasons and not be the superior swordsman because there are more factors and styles of powers at play.


In the narrative structure of One piece, is this actually possible? Can Oda actually write such an outcome? The “superior swordsman loses the fight”?


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## Turrin (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> If two swordsmen fight, and one has hundreds of traditional skills and forms, and the other is simply physically stronger than faster and just blitzes and cuts the “skilled” swordsman down immediately… Who is the “stronger swordsman”?


The Guy who blitz’d because his skill with that simple sword technique he uses to cut down the person is > then the skill of the guy who had hundreds of traditional skills and forms.

Basically you have a master of one skill and a novice with 100 scenario. The master can easily win with one skill.
—-
However if said dude won by pulling a gun after being outplayed in Swordsmanship, then he’s weaker


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Fa


Sablés said:


> Another thing. What major victory has Zoro ever had where the other swordsman didn't have some gimmick going on?  Ryuma? At this point, "swordsmanship" might as well be a minute fraction of Zoro's battles. No wonder he's traveled along the hakiman path.


Facts bro cant believe people actually think swordsman is a thing in ONE PIECE LOL THE IRONY AND YET WERE SOMEHOW CRAZY-Shanksismyeverything9087

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Gohara (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> Why would this make the title meaningless exactly? The mechanism of the story dictates that ZOR MUST WIN to become WSS right?
> 
> is there a world in which Oda can write Zoro vs Mihawk that Zoro LOSES the fight but ends up WSS because “skills and techniques”?
> 
> ...


On the other hand Zoro can win because of better swordsmanship while having slightly inferior haki, for example, and still be the superior swordsman.

Just because Oda won’t have Zoro lose the fight and be considered the better swordsman, doesn’t mean a swordsman who uses pure swordsmanship can’t lose to Fujitora who is a swordsman with a really powerful fruit and be considered the superior swordsman.

Zoro vs. Mihawk will present us with a match up of very similar fighting styles in every way, so of course we assume the better swordsman will win. It’s entirely possible Zoro has been a better swordsman than Fujitora since dressrosa, but only now can I even see Zoro defeating Fujitora.

Not sure what you mean with Zoro’s opponents. I’ve never ignored their other abilities.


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## Gohara (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> I mean sure, if Mihawk in East Blue decided to Punch Zoro instead of using hi cross knife, and then instantaneously one shot Zoro through a speed blitz and haki, Would Mihawk lose his WSS title just because he decided to not even use his sword and won so handedly
> 
> Between Swordless Mihawk and East Blue Zoro… Would you consider East Blue Zoro the “stronger swordsman” simply because he used a sword and yet was too weak to even make Swordless mihawk use his Cross Knife to beat him?


He wouldn’t lose his title because swordsmanship wasn’t involved, not sure how this addresses my point. If anything this is my point. Kaidou would defeat Vista regardless of weapon choice, he could have no actual skill with a sword and defeat vista easily. Is Kaidou a better swordsman in that scenario?

if stronger swordsman is the same thing as just saying stronger character what is the point of the sword 

And why is Whitebeard not included when he uses a type of sword regularly, is one of the physically strongest and best haki users in one piece


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 28, 2022)

Turrin said:


> However if said dude won by pulling a gun after being outplayed in Swordsmanship, then he’s weaker


Is it that easy in the one piece world though?

for example Ohm in skypiea… Ohm had his giant dog creature on top of the mechanical sword that could transform into a sword, shield whip and all the like

If Zoro lost to Ohm after Ohm did everything with his swords and dog and all that, would it be possible for Oda to convince the audience that “No no no, Zoro is in fact the better swordsman… You see when Zoro used his MAGICAL FLYING WIND SLASHES and they got blocked by Ohms MAGICAL SHAPESHIFTING SWORD THAT TURNS INTO A SHIELD TO BLOCK… Clearly Zoro was still the better swordsman in this exchange… MAGICAL FLYING WIND SLASHES are better swordsmanship than MAGICAL SHAPESHIFTNG SWORDS”

or Oda would say “Ohm has that giant monstrous dog that was able to smack Zoro around and pin him down so hat Ohm could cut off Zoro’s head. See ohm is cheating by having this giant dogs and Zoro is definitely at a disadvantage DESPITE THE FACT THAT ZORO CAN LIFT AND THROW BUILDINGS. Zoro isn’t cheating when he has such ridiculous monstrous strength. It’s oh. That is cheating when he uses his giant dog to compensate for how ridiculous strong Zoro’s physical body is.

Imagine the skypiea fight played out like this. Zoro lost because his flying slashes (that make total sense and are definitely swordsmanship) got blocked by Ohm’s sword turning into a shield and Zoro got pinned down by the monster dog and killed by ohm.

And then Oda has to somehow explain that  Zoro is the “stronger swordsman” despite this outcome because of “skills and techniques”

See I think what really happened is Oda’s point. Ohm is a swordsman, with a mechanical sword and monster dog and he lost to Zoro, a swordsman with magical flying slashes and monster strength. Zoro used his moonster strength to overpower Ohm’s monster dog and used his magical flaying slashes to cut though Ohm’s transforming sword and won… And that’s what made Zoro the stronger swordsman… BECAUSE HE WON

Oda has almost gone out of his way to give Zoro’s opponents as many weird abilities as he can and every time it ends the same way, with Zoro winning… Because that’s what Oda means by “Strongest swordsman”… Zoro simply has to win


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 28, 2022)

Gohara said:


> Just because Oda won’t have Zoro lose the fight and be considered the better swordsman, doesn’t mean a swordsman who uses pure swordsmanship can’t lose to Fujitora who is a swordsman with a really powerful fruit and be considered the superior swordsman.


This is EXACTLY what I’m saying is impossible 

I do not believe it is possible that for example WSS Zoro at EoS loses to Fujitora and somehow Oda expects us the readers to still consider him WSS…

the concept of swordsmanship is not nuanced enough for this… To you, it’s maybe possible but Oda will not write it that way… If WSS Zoro loses to Fujitora, the story will be written as Fujitora is now WSS… Plain and simple


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## Tsukuyomi (Aug 28, 2022)

The imbuing of Haki in any form to your swords to make the attacks more powerful and lethal.


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## CoopoNitro7 (Aug 28, 2022)

Gohara said:


> if stronger swordsman is the same thing as just saying stronger character what is the point of the sword


The sword is what makes them a swordsman. Apparently.

Since It’s impossible for the “better swordsman” to lose the fight in the way Oda writes the story… Winning is the primary goal of any sword fight… And the winner is immediately the superior of the other…NO MATTER WHAT… 

If the other person won because they are blindingly faster, doesn’t matter… If the person won because they have an exact counter to the other persons abilities (a la King’s fire and Zoro’s fire cutting) DOESNT MATTER… If the person won because of haki… If the person won because they are a Giant swordsman with a Giant sword that can crushing down and squished the human swordsman…

The one piece world is too  weird with too many powers and too many undefined parameters for anything BUT victory to matter… Like we keep talking about Zoro while ignoring Ashura and pretending like it’s a Natural “swordsmanship” ability because the one piece is weird enough that Zoro’s spirit cutting people isn’t bizarre… In the end, Only winning decides it

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> If the other person won because they are blindingly faster, doesn’t matter… If the person won because they have an exact counter to the other persons abilities (a la King’s fire and Zoro’s fire cutting) DOESNT MATTER… If the person won because of haki… If the person won because they are a Giant swordsman with a Giant sword that can crushing down and squished the human swordsman…
> 
> *The one piece world is too  weird with too many powers and too many undefined parameters for anything BUT victory to matter*… Like we keep talking about Zoro while ignoring Ashura and pretending like it’s a Natural “swordsmanship” ability because the one piece is weird enough that Zoro’s spirit cutting people isn’t bizarre… In the end, Only winning decides it




Glad to know I'm not crazy when I say this.


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Tsukuyomi said:


> The imbuing of Haki in any form to your swords to make the attacks more powerful and lethal.


Shank fans dont think that instead they believe its a fighting style

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Santoryu (Aug 28, 2022)

What's striking is that there are still people seriously asserting that one is significantly stronger than the other.

Whatever side you choose, it seems evident that they're both_ top tiers_ and are at least comparable.


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Glad to know I'm not crazy when I say this.


I almost got canceled when I said haki is one of the most balanced power systems in all of anime


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## Vagueness (Aug 28, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> I almost got canceled when I said haki is one of the most balanced power systems in all of anime


You should have been cancelled.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Gohara (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> The sword is what makes them a swordsman. Apparently.
> 
> Since It’s impossible for the “better swordsman” to lose the fight in the way Oda writes the story… Winning is the primary goal of any sword fight… And the winner is immediately the superior of the other…NO MATTER WHAT…
> 
> ...


Oda when matching Zoro up against a swordsman has almost exclusively matched him up against others with very similar fighting styles, saying oda wouldn’t do this or that, maybe that’s part of why oda usually makes Zoro fight swordsmen who pretty much use nothing else.

We can both use Oda what ifs so this doesn’t do anything to convince me. I think if Roger was resurrected he would defeat end of series Zoro even though he has no fruit and uses a sword. But I think Zoro would remain the better swordsman. Oda wouldn’t do this but not because it would in some way contradict zoro’s title.

see, I can see oda having a character like Fujitora defeat Zoro but not be considered a better swordsman, because there’s much more at play.

Also, would you say Roger is the best swordsman of any one piece character we’ve seen? We’ve seen him wield a sword in every clash he’s had and we now know he has no fruit


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> It's not "clear as day" that's the very argument we're current having, so it does not substitute evidence.
> It is a leap of logic because you are going beyond what is stated and demanding your interpretation of one IMPLICATION is evidence. It is not. Nothing is "essentially being said". All that is obvious is that Zoro acknowledges that he made an assumption that did not have to be true. Based on something Zoro himself has done.



And it not being true means King did not fit swordsmanship as a style


Your Mr 1 translation is also using the same source which is poor i think.



Sablés said:


> Find me another translation, and explain why that's the correct one then.



I posted the correct translation above here


Its from viz. But viz isn't perfect so let me post the raws instead.



Here Zoro doesn't say "your pathetic skills" and cabaji responds by saying "okay i'll stop holding back and unleash my full power swordsmanship" or what you think they said.

Zoro: お前の下らねェ曲技につきあうのが疲れたって言ったんだ!!!  (meaning: I said I'm tired of dealing with your stupid acrobatics)
Cabaji: ならばこの辺でとどめを刺してやろうか!!! おれの本物の剣技で!! (Then let me finish you off here with my real swordsmanship)

Note that zoro uses the term "Kyokugi" to describe acrobatics.
Cabaji's overall fighting style is called Kyokugi or Carnival Arts. He uses techniques named along the lines of "*Kyokugi! Kaji Oyaji" *Which is his fire blowing technique.

Cabaji in the last panel responds by saying he's going to use "Honmono no Kenji" now, Kenji being swordsmanship and honmono meaning "real" or "genuine" or "authentic"

This is a clear way they're saying zoro was tired of his circus act and cabaji responded by saying he's going to use his authentic/genuine/real swordsmanship instead

Atleast to me it doesn't get more clear than this, but if you still have a problem I can't help anymore

Reactions: Like 1


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> My point around “stronger swordsman” is getting back to cutting… if Post Udon Luffy can cut steel with a sword, and East blue Zoro cannot, then Post Udon Luffy is the better swordsman between them



I think what oda would do in a such situation is that if luffy coats his sword with powerful haki and then tries to chop a block of steel, the steel would be obliterated or even broken in two, but it wouldn't be cut. Oda would write it as Luffy fracturing the steel rather than cutting it just to distinguish a swordsman who can cut steel from luffy who has powerful haki enough that it can overwhelm steel but still not cut it clean.


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## juju15112 (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> And it not being true means King did not fit swordsmanship as a style
> 
> 
> Your Mr 1 translation is also using the same source which is poor i think.
> ...


Zoro literally tolf him before that he can't lose to anybody who calls himself Swordsman and Swordsman do all kinds of weord shit. Kaku turned himself into a Cube. Zoro kicks while doing Swordsmanship


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

King isn't a swordsman. Kaku was a swordsman and a martial artist


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> I almost got canceled when I said haki is one of the most balanced power systems in all of anime


No you really should have been cancelled.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> And it not being true means King did not fit swordsmanship as a style


Or King didn't fit "traditional" swordsmanship as a style, which swordsmen are never stated to have to do. Or it could simply be that King never considered himself a swordsman, nor was he ever called one. All that is confirmed in this exchange is that there is a traditional way of swordfighting, not that foregoing tradition disqualifies swordsmen. There is no authority in the world that has run that judgement.

Again, Zoro himself has fought like this and said he would fight like this if it meant winning. He is a swordsman.


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Your Mr 1 translation is also using the same source which is poor i think.


Cite the correct translation then.

Every source of that fight, including the anime, says Mr.1 distinguishes himself from swordsmen due to being able to make more blades after Zoro threw a building at him. Not before. Zoro mocks that.



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Zoro: お前の下らねェ曲技につきあうのが疲れたって言ったんだ!!! (meaning: I said I'm tired of dealing with your stupid acrobatics)
> Cabaji: ならばこの辺でとどめを刺してやろうか!!! おれの本物の剣技で!! (Then let me finish you off here with my real swordsmanship)


Fair enough, I'll concede that point.
Doesn't change the end result though. Zoro isn't losing to someone who calls themselves a swordsman, meaning the recognition is all that matters, regardless of the means.

As stated already in this thread "pure swordsmanship" is almost unheard off. Zoro fights opponents with wacky and undefined powers all the time.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Zoro has no problem biting out people's throats, punching them, kicking them, or throwing buildings at them.
> Zoro also recognizes Cabaji's whole slew of circus antics as swordsmanship.
> 
> Anyone who tries to limit swordsmanship to "tradition" is a liar. We have no parameters to determine where swordsmanship ends.



_Just because swordsmen do extra stuff as well when in need doesn't mean that it's a part of their skill with the sword.

Him biting someone's troath or punching them wouldn't make it so that's he's perceived to have even greater skill with the sword than if he didn't   _


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## Karma (Aug 28, 2022)

>Mihawk the "Clairvoyant"
>Shanks learned a special CoO canceling haki

Just in case Mihawk ever said they could use haki during their fights, right?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Just because swordsmen do extra stuff as well when in need doesn't mean that it's a part of their skill with the sword._


Ergo, there's no reason to discount King as a swordsman because he would do "extra stuff" to win, just like Zoro would. Therefore, the statement didn't necessarily imply King wasn't a swordsman, or that swordsman are no longer swordsmen for doing so.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Ergo, there's no reason to discount King as a swordsman because he would do "extra stuff" to win, just like Zoro would. Therefore, the statement didn't necessarily imply King wasn't a swordsman.



_Sure.

And someone saying that Zoro has greater skill with the sword than King before he let Enma force out all of his Haki would not mean Zoro is outright stronger than King overall._

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _ And someone saying that Zoro has greater skill with the sword than King before he let Enma force out all of his Haki would not mean Zoro is outright stronger than King overall._


You'd be wrong. It would 100% make Zoro the stronger swordsman, and the more skilled swordsman. Because skill is just about how good you are with the blade. There is no parameter within that definition that excludes haki or the very weapon being used.

If King is a swordsman and he lost to Zoro, another swordsman. Then Zoro is the stronger swordsman.
Not that King is necessarily that, so he's a poor example regardless.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> You'd be wrong. It would 100% make Zoro the stronger swordsman, and the more skilled swordsman. Because skill is just about how good you are with the blade. There is no parameter within that definition that excludes haki or the very weapon being used.




_How was Zoro more skilled when he let Enma take the wheel   _


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## Karma (Aug 28, 2022)

Also some fake ass Sanji fans in this section

Do u guys not understand EoS Sanji coin is directly tied up with Mihawk coin?


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _How was Zoro more skilled when he let Enma take the wheel  _


Because they - in the circumstance of King being a swordsman - fought and Zoro won.

He is therefore the stronger swordsman. Do you want to look up the word skill in a dictionary?


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## Sir Curlyhat (Aug 28, 2022)

@Sablés 

_Let's say Dressrosa Zoro fights Queen who pulls up with his sword and Zoro loses the fight, does that make Queen more skilled with the sword than him ?_


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Karma said:


> Also some fake ass Sanji fans in this section
> 
> Do u guys not understand EoS Sanji coin is directly tied up with Mihawk coin?


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> @Sablés
> 
> _Let's say Dressrosa Zoro fights Queen who pulls up with his sword and Zoro loses the fight, does that make Queen more skilled with the sword than him ?_


queen doesn't use a sword

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> @Sablés
> 
> _Let's say Dressrosa Zoro fights Queen who pulls up with his sword and Zoro loses the fight, does that make Queen more skilled with the sword than him ?_


Is Queen a swordsman?
If yes and Zoro lost, Queen is the stronger swordsman.
Zoro said he would never lose to anyone who called himself a swordsman. If he lost, then Queen is superior. That simple.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 28, 2022)

Probably option 2, but I could be convinced otherwise. One Piece kinda reminds me of Naruto with its weird ways of comparing characters.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Is Queen a swordsman?
> If yes and Zoro lost, Queen is the stronger swordsman.
> Zoro said he would never lose to anyone who called himself a swordsman. If he lost, then Queen is superior. That simple.



_So you think that Oda would then make the choice to hype up Queen by being "more skilled with the sword" than Zoro instead of saying "Queen is more powerful than Zoro" ? 

One's ability to wield a blade with great expertise can not be praised distinctively from one's overall strength ? _

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _So you think that Oda would then make the choice to hype up Queen by being "more skilled with the sword" than Zoro instead of saying "Queen is more powerful than Zoro" ?
> 
> One's ability to wield a blade with great expertise can not be praised distinctively from one's overall strength ? _


There would be no difference. If Queen calls himself a swordsman and won, then he would be the superior swordsman. That is the iron-clad rule that Zoro has set out for himself and he has fought against enemies who used what would make swordsmanship from a conventional IRL standpoint absolute bullshit. Zoro himself does this as well. There is no rule for what constitutes a """Proper""" swordsman or duel in One Piece. So yes, if Queen was identified as a swordsman and he beat Zoro, then his skill with the blade is greater than Zoro's.



As an side? Your hypothetical sucks. Those who are swordsmen will naturally fight with bladed weapons. Queen barely touched his sword and is not called a swordsman so how his style would look as a swordsman may be radically different. That you would choose such an X variable over a defined one like Law, who has an esoteric DF AND has been called a swordsman, only betrays your intentions.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Is Queen a swordsman?
> If yes and Zoro lost, Queen is the stronger swordsman.
> Zoro said he would never lose to anyone who called himself a swordsman. If he lost, then Queen is superior. That simple.


Thats true. Being a skillful swordsman but you beat the strongest swordsman makes you the strongest and most skillful swordsman. When you realize this you than understand that mihawk is better than shanks in every way. Being strong in one piece sums up everything. Such as your skill, your durability, endurance, attack power, destruction capability and most importantly your devil fruit and haki usage. The reason why whitebeard was above everyone including garp and sengoku but not roger is simply due to the fact that pirate king level is above worlds strongest man. Yes garp has been stated by roger himself to have almost killed eachother various times but that doesnt automatically mean he scales to roger or relatively higher than whitebeard. Luffy vs kaido almost killed eachother multiple times in that fight and yet luffy was known and shown to be above kaido. Garp is below both whitebeard and roger. Mihawk is superior to shanks but is also under roger whitebeard and garp.


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _So you think that Oda would then make the choice to hype up Queen by being "more skilled with the sword" than Zoro instead of saying "Queen is more powerful than Zoro" ?
> 
> One's ability to wield a blade with great expertise can not be praised distinctively from one's overall strength ? _


You do understand that vivre cards also state that mihawk surpassed shanks, and had more power than shanks. It also states that mihawk is the worlds strongest swordsman. Meaning he also is stronger alongside being more skillful


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## Sir Curlyhat (Aug 28, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> You do understand that vivre cards also state that mihawk surpassed shanks, and had more power than shanks. It also states that mihawk is the worlds strongest swordsman. Meaning he also is stronger alongside being more skillful


_
No, i don't recall a single statement being made about Mihawk having superior strength to Shanks.

I recall from a Vivre card the statement tha Vista has sword skills that are comparable to Mihawk though, which would then make us chose between saying that it then means he is also overall comparable to Mihawk, or there's a distinction between Vista's sword skills being close to the top, and his oveall strength being on that level as well._


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> Thats true. Being a skillful swordsman but you beat the strongest swordsman makes you the strongest and most skillful swordsman. When you realize this you than understand that mihawk is better than shanks in every way. Being strong in one piece sums up everything. Such as your skill, your durability, endurance, attack power, destruction capability and most importantly your devil fruit and haki usage. The reason why whitebeard was above everyone including garp and sengoku but not roger is simply due to the fact that pirate king level is above worlds strongest man. Yes garp has been stated by roger himself to have almost killed eachother various times but that doesnt automatically mean he scales to roger or relatively higher than whitebeard. Luffy vs kaido almost killed eachother multiple times in that fight and yet luffy was known and shown to be above kaido. Garp is below both whitebeard and roger. Mihawk is superior to shanks but is also under roger whitebeard and garp.


Don't get me wrong. It is technically possible to separate sword skill/swordsmanship from being a swordsman. The former can refer to how good you are with the blade in any capacity, for any reason. But not factor in skills (ability) that have nothing to do with the sword or blade e.g. Law's soul swap or techniques like that. You could argue that has nothing to do with sword skill (ignoring that these techniques can be an accessory to winning with the blade regardless)

The problem is that this reasoning is not the point of the thread. It's delusional to ignore the agenda here is conflating sword skill and swordsman to determine overall power for the Mihawk/Shanks/Zoro debate, so I will respond accordingly to that context.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> There would be no difference. If Queen calls himself a swordsman and won, then he would be the superior swordsman. That is the iron-clad rule that Zoro has set out for himself and he has fought against enemies who used what would make swordsmanship from a conventional IRL standpoint absolute bullshit. Zoro himself does this as well. There is no rule for what constitutes a """Proper""" swordsman or duel in One Piece. So yes, if Queen was identified as a swordsman and he beat Zoro, then his skill with the blade is greater than Zoro's.
> 
> 
> 
> As an side? Your hypothetical sucks. Those who are swordsmen will naturally fight with bladed weapons. Queen barely touched his sword and is not called a swordsman so how his style would look as a swordsman may be radically different. That you would choose such an X variable over a defined one like Law, who has an esoteric DF AND has been called a swordsman, only betrays your intentions.



_So you think Oda's story forbids him from praising one's ability to wield a blade with great expertise as a distinct thing from one's overall strength ?_


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _So you think Oda's story forbids him from praising one's ability to wield a blade with great expertise as a distinct thing from one's overall strength ?_


That all depends on if one's capacity as a swordsman equate to their ability to wield a blade.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> That all depends on if one's capacity as a swordsman equate to their ability to wield a blade.



_If they are one and the same in Oda's mind and it's the message he wants to convey to the readers why not simply say "more powerful than even Red Hair" when making the comparison meant to hype Hawkeye ?_

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _If they are one and the same in Oda's mind and it's the message he wants to convey to the readers why not simply say "more powerful than even Red Hair" when making the comparison meant to hype Hawkeye ?_


Because the result is the same. Oda doesn't need to write his story exactly the way you want it be written to convey the same message.

If you are a swordsman, and you lose to someone who is a swordsman, you are inferior. That is Zoro's creed. That is how all his battles operate, where his opponents attack with methods that the IRL depiction of a swordsman would scoff at. This is not up for debate and the world of One Piece does not have defined parameters for swordsmen. Winning the duel is all that matters.


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _No, i don't recall a single statement being made about Mihawk having superior strength to Shanks._


_Would you like the vivre card?_


Sir Curlyhat said:


> _I recall from a Vivre card the statement tha Vista has sword skills that are comparable to Mihawk though, which would then make us chose between saying that it then means he is also overall comparable to Mihawk, or there's a distinction between Vista's sword skills being close to the top, and his oveall strength being on that level as well._


Vista and mihawk never fought just clashed. So sword skills comparable to mihawk for split clashing.


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Not related to this forum but man sentient ai's are terrifying who thought it was a great idea

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Because the result is the same. Oda doesn't need to write his story exactly the way you want it be written to convey the same message.
> 
> If you are a swordsman, and you lose to someone who is a swordsman, you are inferior. That is Zoro's creed. That is how all his battles operate, where his opponents attack with methods that the IRL depiction of a swordsman would scoff at. This is not up for debate. Winning the duel is all that matters.



_Do you think him wanting Mihawk vs Shanks to be an ongoing discussion has nothing to do with his decision to write one thing and not the other which would have put and end to said discussion ?_


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Do you think him wanting Mihawk vs Shanks to be an ongoing discussion has nothing to do with his decision to write one thing and not the other which would have put and end to said discussion ?_


No, I don't and I don't care either. I am not Oda. I don't know what he thinks or what he plans, so I don't factor into any argument.

What I can know? Is the story he has written, and he has made it abundantly clear what superiority means for swordsmen.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> No, I don't and I don't care either. I am not Oda. I don't know what he thinks or what he plans, so I don't factor into any argument.
> 
> What I can know? Is the story he has written, and he has made it abundantly clear what superiority means for swordsmen.



_In the story he has written he is unwilling to write the words "Mihawk is more powerful than Shanks" 

In the same story he also made sure to tell us that their duels remain unsetled and a winner was not decided.

I think it's fair to factor these details into your argument when discussing his opinion on Mihawk vs Shanks._

Reactions: Winner 1


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## juju15112 (Aug 28, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _In the story he has written he is unwilling to write the words "Mihawk is more powerful than Shanks"
> 
> In the same story he also made sure to tell us that their duels remain unsetled and a winner was not decided.
> 
> I think it's fair to factor these details into your argument when discussing his opinion on Mihawk vs Shanks._


1.Oda did write that. WSS and Shanks is a Swordsman 
2.Show me where it said a winner was decided.
3. Vivrecard " World strongest Swordsman in name and "ACTUALITY"


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## Sir Curlyhat (Aug 28, 2022)

juju15112 said:


> 1.Oda did write that. WSS and Shanks is a Swordsman
> 2.Show me where it said a winner was decided.
> 3. Vivrecard " World strongest Swordsman in name and "ACTUALITY"



_Sure just link me the panel that says "Mihawk is more powerful than Shanks" or "Mihawk is stronger than Shanks"

It is said that they have not settled the duels when Mihawk went to visit Shanks. Shanks asked him if he has come to settle their duels._


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _In the story he has written he is unwilling to write the words "Mihawk is more powerful than Shanks" _


Wrong. He has not written "Mihawk is more powerful than Shanks" in those exact words. He, however, has Mihawk written to be more powerful than Shanks, by virtue of Shanks being a swordsman. Whitebeard has not been written more powerful than Shanks directly, but he is by his overarching title as the top of the yonko, the strongest pirate, and the WSM. All clear without a "direct" comparison to Shanks.

Don't drag this in circles


Sablés said:


> Oda doesn't need to write his story ex:actly the way you want it be written to convey the same message.


It is absurd and pretentious to place emphasis on the importance of a precise construction of a message to convey a result, while all others that deliver that same meaning are illegitimate.  If you have nothing new to add to this debate, I'm leaving it at that.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Wrong. He has not written "Mihawk is more powerful than Shanks" in those exact words. He, however, has Mihawk written to be more powerful than Shanks, by virtue of Shanks being a swordsman. Whitebeard has not been written more powerful Shanks directly, but he has by his overarching title as the top of the yonko, the strongest pirate, and the WSS. All clear without a "direct" comparison to Shanks.
> 
> Don't drag this in circles
> 
> It is absurd and pretentious to assume something must be conveyed exactly as you want it to for the result to be legitimate. If you have nothing new to add to this debate, I'm leaving it at that.



_Was Whitebeard stronger than Roger because WB was the WSM  ?

Sure i don't find your arguments compelling and you don't find mine either so we're not getting anywhere.

I did change my mind on this topic from previously having Shanks clearly above Mihawk, so it's possible i eventually end up agreeing with you.

For now i think Oda wants Shanks vs Mihawk to be ambigous and the two are meant to pretty much be interchangeable strenght wise, with them seeking different goals and thus obtaining different titles._


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Was Whitebeard stronger than Roger because WB was the WSM ?_


Then you are arguing for a . We know Roger was an exception (this is me buying that Whitebeard was WSM at the time ofc) based on the text explicitly saying Whitebeard = Roger. We do not have the same justification within the text for Shanks. Not explicitly, but it's possible at least based on portrayal.

I love that you used this example by the way, because Whitebeard being the WSM is directly tied to being the strongest overall. If you choose to equate Shanks' exception to Roger, you must also acknowledge that this form of exception would not distinguish Swordsmen from overall strength. Only that they are an exception to an absolute title. You must also accept that, at best, Shanks would be someone who is equal to Mihawk, discounting a fight to the death where one must win. In which case, even Roger and Whitebeard never had that. Of course, in such an event, the benefit of the doubt would go to the title holder.

Funnily enough, that's *exactly *my opinion.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Sure just link me the panel that says "Mihawk is more powerful than Shanks" or "Mihawk is stronger than Shanks"
> 
> It is said that they have not settled the duels when Mihawk went to visit Shanks. Shanks asked him if he has come to settle their duels._


The title being wss. All shanks said was if he came to fight not settle their duels.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Then you are arguing for a . We know Roger was an exception (this is me buying that Whitebeard was WSM at the time ofc) based on the text explicitly saying Whitebeard = Roger. We do not have the same justification within the text for Shanks. Not explicitly, but it's possible at least based on portrayal.
> 
> I love that you used this example by the way, because Whitebeard being the WSM is directly tied to being the strongest overall. If you choose to equate Shanks' exception to Roger, you must also acknowledge that this form of exception would not distinguish Swordsmen from overall strength. Only that they are an exception to an absolute title. You must also accept that, at best, Shanks would be someone who is equal to Mihawk, discounting a fight to the death where one must win. In which case, even Roger and Whitebeard never had that. Of course, in such an event, the benefit of the doubt would go to the title holder.
> 
> Funnily enough, that's *exactly *my opinion.



_So as far as WB vs Roger are concerned you think they are equals but if they fought to the death WB was guaranteed to win due to his title ?_


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

T


Sablés said:


> Then you are arguing for a . We know Roger was an exception (this is me buying that Whitebeard was WSM at the time ofc) based on the text explicitly saying Whitebeard = Roger. We do not have the same justification within the text for Shanks. Not explicitly, but it's possible at least based on portrayal.
> 
> I love that you used this example by the way, because Whitebeard being the WSM is directly tied to being the strongest overall. If you choose to equate Shanks' exception to Roger, you must also acknowledge that this form of exception would not distinguish Swordsmen from overall strength. Only that they are an exception to an absolute title. You must also accept that, at best, Shanks would be someone who is equal to Mihawk, discounting a fight to the death where one must win. In which case, even Roger and Whitebeard never had that. Of course, in such an event, the benefit of the doubt would go to the title holder.
> 
> Funnily enough, that's *exactly *my opinion.


Talking to shank stans takes alot of patience and energy


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _So as far as WB vs Roger are concerned you think they are equals but if they fought to the death WB was guaranteed to win due to his title ?_


What does this even mean, what did you possibly prove with this statement?


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _So as far as WB vs Roger are concerned you think they are equals but if they fought to the death WB was guaranteed to win due to his title ?_


In a vacuum, yes. Otherwise his title would be a lie and the narrative, pointless. Unless it's a case where Roger grew to surpass him and _then _became the WSM over the course of the fight. We have no reason to believe that would happen though.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> In a vacuum, yes. Otherwise his title would be a lie and the narrative, pointless. Unless it's a case where Roger grew to surpass him and _then _became the WSM over the course of the fight. We have no reason to believe that would happen though.



_Well i guess we're very close in how we think they compare with the minor distinction that i think it would be up in the air and depending on the day it could go one way or another   _

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Great Potato (Aug 28, 2022)

> swordsman​noun, plural swords·men.
> a person who uses or is skilled in the use of a .



That's all there is to it.

Mihawk has people so threatened they've spent years trying to create a new definition for a word that's existed in our vocabulary for centuries. I'll choose to listen to the what the dictionary says over the tier-specialists in the OL.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Esdese (Aug 28, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> I almost got canceled when I said haki is one of the most balanced power systems in all of anime


dumbest shit I have ever read


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## juju15112 (Aug 28, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Sure just link me the panel that says "Mihawk is more powerful than Shanks" or "Mihawk is stronger than Shanks"
> 
> It is said that they have not settled the duels when Mihawk went to visit Shanks. Shanks asked him if he has come to settle their duels._


Ok 

Confirms Shanks is a Swordsman and Mihawk is the WSS. Now give me your link

You don't know what settle mean. Zoro has something to settle with Mihawk too yet he lost to him. Show me a panel saying there fight wasn't finish. Thats what you claimed you had


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## Seraphoenix (Aug 28, 2022)

Great Potato said:


> That's all there is to it.
> 
> Mihawk has people so threatened they've spent years trying to create a new definition for a word that's existed in our vocabulary for centuries. I'll choose to listen to the what the dictionary says over the tier-specialists in the OL.


Did you translate this from Japanese? Since I’m guessing you used kenshi? And translated the appropriate context?


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## Seraphoenix (Aug 28, 2022)

juju15112 said:


> Ok
> 
> Confirms Shanks is a Swordsman and Mihawk is the WSS. Now give me your link
> 
> You don't know what settle mean. Zoro has something to settle with Mihawk too yet he lost to him. Show me a panel saying there fight wasn't finish. Thats what you claimed you had


This Brannew opinion doesn’t classify Shanks as only a swordsman though. Just says Mihawk has greater skill than him in swordsmanship.

Mihawk says he doesn’t want to settle things with a one-armed bastard when he meets Shanks. I can try and find the raw tomorrow.


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## Turrin (Aug 28, 2022)

CoopoNitro7 said:


> Is it that easy in the one piece world though?
> 
> for example Ohm in skypiea… Ohm had his giant dog creature on top of the mechanical sword that could transform into a sword, shield whip and all the like
> 
> ...


In your scenario Ohm is still using a Sword though. It’s a magic Sword but still a Sword. So if Ohm won due to his Sword Techniques, that’s still Swordsmanship.
—-
Not really Zoro lost to Kizaru:

Despite Kizaru using Swords in combat:
—-
Like I said the main issue is whether a character strongest ability is Swordsmanship or something else. Kizaru strongest ability likely isn’t his light-saber skills.


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

Mihawk did not beat Shanks.


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Esdese said:


> dumbest shit I have ever read


Haki is a powersystem. And its ironic coming from you especially since you have the top 1 worst takes most people ever read in their life


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Turrin said:


> In your scenario Ohm is still using a Sword though. It’s a magic Sword but still a Sword. So if Ohm won due to his Sword Techniques, that’s still Swordsmanship.
> —-
> Not really Zoro lost to Kizaru:
> 
> ...


Kizaru, only uses his swords in certain times. Zoro never lost to kizaru. Actually kizaru never harmed zoro but planned to kill him


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Mihawk did not beat Shanks.


mihawk did not just beat shanks but made shanks walk the plank. And than proceeded to put on a costume looking like a seabeast and snatch shanks arm while acting like he was scared

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Great Potato said:


> That's all there is to it.
> 
> Mihawk has people so threatened they've spent years trying to create a new definition for a word that's existed in our vocabulary for centuries. I'll choose to listen to the what the dictionary says over the tier-specialists in the OL.


 Shanks stans were so terrified they tried legally changing the definition "shanks isnt a swordsman he has another way of fighting which is conquers blast"


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## Turrin (Aug 28, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> Kizaru, only uses his swords in certain times. Zoro never lost to kizaru. Actually kizaru never harmed zoro but planned to kill him


Kizaru in that panel literally said he knocked Zoro out with one hit and was about to kill him. Zoro lost.
—-
And that’s the point a character can have Swordsmanship and other skills. Kizaru is such a character, which is why loosing to his other skills doenst make someone an inferior Swordsman to him necessarily


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Or King didn't fit "traditional" swordsmanship as a style, which swordsmen are never stated to have to do. Or it could simply be that King never considered himself a swordsman, nor was he ever called one. All that is confirmed in this exchange is that there is a traditional way of swordfighting, not that foregoing tradition disqualifies swordsmen. There is no authority in the world that has run that judgement.


I don't think you get it. King is saying he's not adhering to any martial art. This doesn't mean he's saying he's not adhering to any specific swordstyle and doing weird swordsmanship. It means he's fighting like a killing machine using any tool. Zoro responds in kind saying "well okay you didn't say you were a swordsman so fair... you know what maybe I'll also do anything to win" 



Sablés said:


> Cite the correct translation then.





In your translation it appears as though Zoro is in disbelief of the idea that Mr 1 isn't a swordsman because of the wording. In a more accurate translation its more like he's going along with it and playing on the words in a similar way he's been doing throughout the fight with various exchanges and quips they've had. 

Its also not about adhering to a specific point in which he says "don't consider me a swordsman" because zoro never really did. Zoro's goal here is read more like him overcoming the challenge of beating a "full body knife" (zenshin hamono ningen) who said no swordsman he has met can beat him, than him beating him because he considers him a swordsman. Even while throwing the building off of himself he's not expecting it to do any damage, he still proclaims his goal is cutting steel. 



Sablés said:


> As stated already in this thread "pure swordsmanship" is almost unheard off. Zoro fights opponents with wacky and undefined powers all the time.



Wacky and undefined=/= swordsmanship


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## juju15112 (Aug 28, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> This Brannew opinion doesn’t classify Shanks as only a swordsman though. Just says Mihawk has greater skill than him in swordsmanship.
> 
> Mihawk says he doesn’t want to settle things with a one-armed bastard when he meets Shanks. I can try and find the raw tomorrow.


1. Ok clown 




iTs BrAnNeW oPiNIoN lol clown Everything says Shanks is a Swordsman Movies,Vivrecard, Story etc... 

2. Ok whats your point. He wouldn't want to settle things if Zoro gave up his arm for the new era either.


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Kizaru in that panel literally said he knocked Zoro out with one hit and was about to kill him. Zoro lost.
> —-
> And that’s the point a character can have Swordsmanship and other skills. Kizaru is such a character, which is why loosing to his other skills doenst make someone an inferior Swordsman to him necessarily


Kizaru or px bot hit zoro with a beam because he was already worn out. It wasn't with a sword. Swordsmanship is only valid while using a sword.


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## Tsukuyomi (Aug 28, 2022)

@Unresponsive 
This is how Mihawk will fight Zoro eos  :

Reactions: Funny 3


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 28, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> The title being wss. All shanks said was if he came to fight not settle their duels.



Since im doing this stuff anyway....

In that blurb it doesn't say shanks was once as powerful as the strongest swordsman.
It says something more along the lines of "Shanks once was shoulder to shoulder/on par with (肩を並べた)  the greatest swordsman (世界一の剣豪~Sekaiichi no kengo)"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I don't think you get it. King is saying he's not adhering to any martial art.


His words specifically is that he doesn't get why people stick to schools, traditional forms, or style. Swordsmanship or whatever is not a school or style. But there are schools and styles of swordsmanship. We can't know what he meant as there is no confirmation either way. Of course something like this can be deemed unconventional, but not enough to disqualify him as a swordsman. But since King never claimed either way, why would Zoro even have those preconceptions?


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> In your translation it appears as though Zoro is in disbelief of the idea that Mr 1 isn't a swordsman because of the wording. In a more accurate translation its more like he's going along with it and playing on the words in a similar way he's been doing throughout the fight with various exchanges and quips they've had.


Dude you missed the point completely.

Mr.1 at this point had been fighting using highly unconventional attacks with his body as a human blade, yet he still went out of his way to confirm that he was not a swordsman, as if it wasn't obvious. Meaning, in fact, that it wasn't obvious that he wasn't a swordsman and Zoro never questions it or even brings it up until Daz Bones himself does.



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Wacky and undefined=/= swordsmanship


Said who? I didn't realize you were a judge of what can be or cannot be considered swordsmanship in One Piece.


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Since im doing this stuff anyway....
> 
> In that blurb it doesn't say shanks was once as powerful as the strongest swordsman.
> It says something more along the lines of "Shanks once was shoulder to shoulder/on par with (肩を並べた)  the greatest swordsman (世界一の剣豪~Sekaiichi no kengo)"


Thats literally the same thing. Plus it seems that you were using google translate which is notorious for being incorrect.
かいおうるい 海王類を恐怖させる
ほどの眼光!!!
シャンクスはかつて、 世界 の剣豪と肩を並べたほどの実 力を持つ。通称 "近海の主"
という海王類と対峙した時も、 「失せろ」の一言で片付けたほ どだ。幾度となく過酷な海を 渡ってきた大海賊だからこそ、 この迫力が出せたのだろう。 いつもふざけている態度には ない、真の実力がみえた一瞬。Kaiworui Eyes that frighten the sea kings!!!Shanks was as powerful as the strongest swordsman was.Even when confronted by the so-called "Lord of the Inshore" Sea Kings, he dismissed it with the words "Get lost."It was precisely because the great pirates had crossed the harsh sea many times that they were able to produce this power.Not in his usual playful demeanor, but for a moment he could see his true ability. Did another translator and it was
Sulfurous The eyes of the sea kings are so terrifying!
A light so bright that it terrifies the sea kings!
Shanks is so powerful that he was once on par with the best swordsmen in the world. When confronted by the "Lord of the Near Seas," as he is commonly called, he
When confronted by the "Lord of the Inland Sea," he simply said, "Get lost. It is only because he is a great pirate who has crossed the harsh seas many times that he is able to display this kind of power. This was a moment that revealed his true strength, which was not to be found in his usual joking attitude.

I did another and I got for the romaji 
ka iō rui kaiōrui o kyōfu saseru
hodo no gankō !!!
shan kusu wa katsute , sekai no kengō to kata o narabeta hodo no jitsu chikara o motsu . tsūshō " kinkai no shu "
toiu kaiōrui to taiji shita toki mo , " usero " no hitokoto de katazuketa hododa . ikudo to naku kakokuna umi o watattekita dai kaizokudakara koso , kono hakuryoku ga daseta nodarō . itsumo fuzaketeiru taido ni wa nai , shin no jitsuryoku ga mieta isshun . ka iō rui kaiōrui o kyōfu saseru
hodo no gankō !!!
shan kusu wa katsute , sekai no kengō to kata o narabeta hodo no jitsu chikara o motsu . tsūshō " kinkai no shu "
toiu kaiōrui to taiji shita toki mo , " usero " no hitokoto de katazuketa hododa . ikudo to naku kakokuna umi o watattekita dai kaizokudakara koso , kono hakuryoku ga daseta nodarō . itsumo fuzaketeiru taido ni wa nai , shin no jitsuryoku ga mieta isshun . The english translation 
A glare enough to terrify the mighty sea kings!!!
Shanks once had the strength to rival the world's greatest swordsmen.. Even when confronted with a sea king known as the "Lord of the Near Seas", he dismissed it with a single word, "Get lost.". Perhaps it is precisely because he is a great pirate who has crossed the harshest seas countless times that he is able to bring out this power.. A moment when I saw my true ability, which is not always in a playful attitude. A glare enough to terrify the mighty sea kings!!!
Shanks once had the ability to rival the world's greatest swordsmen.. Even when confronted with a sea king known as the "Lord of the Near Seas", he dismissed it with a single word, "Get lost.". Perhaps it is precisely because he is a great pirate who has crossed the harshest seas countless times that he is able to bring out this power.. A moment when I saw my true ability, which is not always in a playful attitude. All the countless previous translations match up with the one I showed you


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> It says something more along the lines of "Shanks once was shoulder to shoulder/on par with (肩を並べた) the greatest swordsman (世界一の剣豪~Sekaiichi no kengo)"


You literally draw the same meaning from that.


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> You literally draw the same meaning from that.


For some reason it seems like your the only person when in a mihawk vs shanks forum that actually uses their brain


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## Esdese (Aug 28, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> Haki is a powersystem. And its ironic coming from you especially since you have the top 1 worst takes most people ever read in their life


did I ever state it was not a power system?


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## Esdese (Aug 28, 2022)

>arguing about Japanese when you're not a native that knows the culture, or a fluent person that lived there for years and years


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Esdese said:


> >arguing about Japanese when you're not a native that knows the culture, or a fluent person that lived there for years and years


This is what I call speaking when you dont know whats happening


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Esdese said:


> did I ever state it was not a power system?


What else could you possibly have meant when you said "dumbest thing I've ever read


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## Esdese (Aug 28, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> This is what I call speaking when you dont know whats happening


stay wrong
stay mad


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## Esdese (Aug 28, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> What else could you possibly have meant when you said "dumbest thing I've ever read


LMFAO, you're one dumb mofo


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Esdese said:


> stay wrong
> stay mad


Im not really mad. And im not wrong


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## Esdese (Aug 28, 2022)

whatever helps u sleep at night


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Esdese said:


> LMFAO, you're one dumb mofo



would you like to tell me what you meant than?


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## Esdese (Aug 28, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> would you like to tell me what you meant than?

Reactions: Useful 1


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> His words specifically is that he doesn't get why people stick to schools, traditional forms, or style. Swordsmanship or whatever is not a school or style. But there are schools and styles of swordsmanship. We can't know what he meant as there is no confirmation either way. Of course something like this can be deemed unconventional, but not enough to disqualify him as a swordsman. But since King never claimed either way, why would Zoro even have those preconceptions?


In this scenario it is swordsmanship that also counts as part of it. If not the exchange doesn't make sense unless you think zoro is saying he's using an unorthodox swordsmanship style instead of not using swordsmanship.
Zoro ain't saying he's a weird swordsman, he's inferring King isn't a swordsman at all.



Sablés said:


> Dude you missed the point completely.



I wrote a lot more besides what you quoted giving context...


Sablés said:


> Mr.1 at this point had been fighting using highly unconventional attacks with his body as a human blade, yet he still went out of his way to confirm that he was not a swordsman, as if it wasn't obvious. Meaning, in fact, that it wasn't obvious that he wasn't a swordsman and Zoro never questions it or even brings it up until Daz Bones himself does.


Yeah, which means it was clarifying it for the audience, zoro himself never seemed to care if daz was a swordsman or not, his primary goal was learning how to cut steel. He never refers to Bones as swordsman either nor is he taken aback by the idea that bones doesn't consider himself one.



Sablés said:


> Said who? I didn't realize you were a judge of what can be or cannot be considered swordsmanship in One Piece.



There is some distinction even among swordsmen who use other things like in the Cabaji case. It should also be intuitively obvious.


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> In this scenario it is swordsmanship that also counts as part of it. If not the exchange doesn't make sense unless you think zoro is saying he's using an unorthodox swordsmanship style instead of not using swordsmanship.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Sok (Aug 28, 2022)

go touch grass mihawk bros you been working overtime this past few days

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Sok said:


> go touch grass mihawk bros  you working overtime on this past few days


ratio plus mald plus goon plus cry plus cant reply plus tear up

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sok (Aug 28, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> ratio plus mald plus goon plus cry plus cant reply plus tear up


there's medication for that


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> In this scenario it is swordsmanship that also counts as part of it. If not the exchange doesn't make sense unless you think zoro is saying he's using an unorthodox swordsmanship style instead of not using swordsmanship.


Considering Zoro has fought outside of using his sword before and said he would again, then yes.


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> I wrote a lot more besides what you quoted giving context...
> 
> Yeah, which means it was clarifying it for the audience, zoro himself never seemed to care if daz was a swordsman or not, his primary goal was learning how to cut steel. He never refers to Bones as swordsman either nor is he taken aback by the idea that bones doesn't consider himself one.


My dude. I will say it again: The point was that everything Daz Bones did up until then could not be distinguished from swordsmanship/hum from a swordsman. *That's why he had to make it clear that he wasn't, and he does so not by changing his style, but creating a new weapon that was barely different from all the rest. *Guess what? Zoro still threw a building at him as a distraction.


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> There is some distinction even among swordsmen who use other things like in the Cabaji case. It should also be intuitively obvious.


No, it's not obvious.
We have Zoro opponents throwing whipswords that turn into constructs, giraffe swordsmen, swordsmen dipping their blades in acid, officers who create mountain-sized constructs of themselves. And of course, we have Zoro himself punching, kicking etc.

Going by your logic, it seems almost none of Zoro's opponents, and Zoro himself, ever stick to "swordsmanship". So what the hell  is wrong with King doing it? Why would Zoro even assume it when the slew of opponents over his career as a SH (and his own tactics) all fought with gimmicks and weapons outside typical swordplay?


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Sok said:


> there's medication for that


Is that a tear in your eye

Reactions: Agree 1


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Considering Zoro has fought outside of using his sword before and said he would again, then yes.


When Zoro says that in this scenario he's saying he'll abandon swordsmanship to win and become a slaughter machine like King, rather than adhere to swordsmanship



Sablés said:


> My dude. I will say it again: The point was that everything Daz Bones did up until then could not be distinguished from swordsmanship/hum from a swordsman. *That's why he had to make it clear that he wasn't, and he does so not by changing his style, but creating a new weapon that was barely different from all the rest. *Guess what? Zoro still threw a building at him as a distraction.


Yeah Zoro didn't seem to think he was fighting a swordsman anyway.
Also, when reading this I never though daz bones was a swordsman, he was just a living blade.



Sablés said:


> No, it's not obvious.
> We have Zoro opponents throwing whipswords that turn into constructs, giraffe swordsmen, swordsmen dipping their blades in acid, officers who create mountain-sized constructs of themselves. And of course, we have Zoro himself punching, kicking etc.



Yeah its obvious lemme show you.

Kaku: Yontoryu=swordsmanship. Giraffe techniques like bigan and henchikirin=not swordsmanship
Acid blades= Counts since fire swordsmanship is also a thing so some level elemental damage goes?
Pica: Just because he whipped out a sword in the end doesn't mean his fighting style was at all swordsmanship. Becoming a giant golem and punching the ground isn't swordsmanship

Zoro: Any number-toryu=Swordsmanship. Zoro when punching kicking etc=not swordsmanship and something he only whips out very conditionally when he isn't fighting swordsmen or swordsmen who are fucking around. 


Sablés said:


> Going by your logic, it seems almost none of Zoro's opponents, and Zoro himself, ever stick to "swordsmanship".



Many of zoro's opponents aren't even swordsmen or identified as such, and many of them are weird hybrids who get called out.




Sablés said:


> So what the hell  is wrong with King doing it? Why would Zoro even assume it when the slew of opponents over his career as a SH (and his own tactics) all fought with gimmicks and weapons outside typical swordplay?



Zoro sees a sword and assumes, he just built like that.


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> When Zoro says that in this scenario he's saying he'll abandon swordsmanship to win and become a slaughter machine like King, rather than adhere to swordsmanship


Zoro said nothing about abandoning swordsmanship and he has fought that way to win before. Zoro is a swordsman, nothing says he can't fight in such a manner. Otherwise why complain about King doing so even before King opened his mouth. Stop dragging this in circles, you can't have your cake and eat it too.


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Yeah Zoro didn't seem to think he was fighting a swordsman anyway.
> Also, when reading this I never though daz bones was a swordsman, he was just a living blade.


No. Zoro at no point declares Daz wasn't a swordsman or alike. That's why Daz Bones had to mention it.
It's not about what YOU think, or what I think either. It's about what the narrative registers. Daz Bones has to state blatantly that he is not a swordsmen, because the entire arsenal of bullshit he was using prior was not enough to dismiss swordsmanship. This is the part that you keep missing.


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Kaku: Yontoryu=swordsmanship. Giraffe techniques like bigan and henchikirin=not swordsmanship
> Acid blades= Counts since fire swordsmanship is also a thing so some level elemental damage goes?
> Pica: Just because he whipped out a sword in the end doesn't mean his fighting style was at all swordsmanship. Becoming a giant golem and punching the ground isn't swordsmanship
> 
> Zoro: Any number-toryu=Swordsmanship. Zoro when punching kicking etc=not swordsmanship and something he only whips out very conditionally when he isn't fighting swordsmen or swordsmen who are fucking around


In other words, even at the very best estimate of your claim, swordsmen can fight outside the bounds of the sword just fine and still be swordsmen.
So what is your problem with King doing the same?


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Many of zoro's opponents aren't even swordsmen or identified as such, and many of them are weird hybrids who get called out.


The only opponent Zoro ever had that was confirmed to not be a swordsman is Daz Bones to my knowledge.
But it's amusing that on Zoro's path to becoming WSS, both he and nearly every single one of his opponents fail to stick to """pure swordsmanship""" and will do whatever to win fights. Almost like the setting that doesn't have a particular rule for it.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Aug 28, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Zoro said nothing about abandoning swordsmanship and he has fought that way to win before. Zoro is a swordsman, nothing says he can't fight in such a manner. Otherwise why complain about King doing so even before King opened his mouth. Stop dragging this in circles, you can't have your cake and eat it too.


Who said he complained? He just made an observation.
Which enemy did he beat by biting their throat?



Sablés said:


> No. Zoro at no point declares Daz wasn't a swordsman or alike. That's why Daz Bones had to mention it.
> It's about what the narrative registers. Daz Bones has to state blatantly that he is not a swordsmen, because the entire arsenal of bullshit he was using prior was not enough to dismiss swordsmanship. This is the part that you keep missing.



Its not something I'm missing, you're making a similar argument to the king one, difference is in the King situation zoro's assumption about King is being challenged by his dialogue, while in the Bones situation he never considered him one to begin or did not care for beating Daz bones' swordsmanship because he already landed multiple hits that would be fatal to any swordsman. Daz bones comment doesn't really alter zoro's perception of king in anyway. Its also a bit of teasing on daz bones part where he's like "i've been normal edged straight attacks till now but I've got other weapons"



Sablés said:


> In other words, even at the very best estimate of your claim, swordsmen can fight outside the bounds of the sword just fine and still be swordsmen.
> So what is your problem with King doing the same?


He doesn't identify as a swordsman for one
Big Mom uses napolean and fights a lot with him, but does she count as a swordsman?
Zoro also doesn't identify him as such after seeing his whole style.



Sablés said:


> The only opponent Zoro ever had that was confirmed to not be a swordsman is Daz Bones to my knowledge.
> But it's amusing that on Zoro's path to becoming a swordsmen, both he and nearly every single one of his opponents fail to stick to """pure swordsmanship""" and will do whatever to win fights. Almost like the setting that doesn't have a particular rule for it.



Look man I just can't see a kilometer tall golem punching the ground for 95% of the fight as a swordsman technique


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## Sablés (Aug 28, 2022)

IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Who said he complained? He just made an observation.
> Which enemy did he beat by biting their throat?


This is a distinction without meaning. Zoro has no reason to comment on King punching or having a special weapon when Zoro himself has punched before, and thrown buildings at people. Not biting their throat, but that is also further eveidence that he will do whatever it takes to win.


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Its not something I'm missing, you're making a similar argument to the king one, difference is in the King situation zoro's assumption about King is being challenged by his dialogue, while in the Bones situation he never considered him one to begin or did not care for beating Daz bones' swordsmanship because he already landed multiple hits that would be fatal to any swordsman. Daz bones comment doesn't really alter zoro's perception of king in anyway. Its also a bit of teasing on daz bones part where he's like "i've been normal edged straight attacks till now but I've got other weapons"


Bolded is yet again an assumption. Zoro at no point dismissed Daz Bones as a swordsman, not is it stated that he "never cared for beating Bones' swordsmanship". These are elements you created to support your stance. All we know is that Zoro cast doubt on Daz Bones' style after Daz himself said he wasn't a swordsman.

Yet again, you've ignored the fact that Daz Bones' attacks up to that point are wild for what could be considered swordsmanship by our standards,* yet not self-evident of non-swordsmanship practice in One Piece.  *



IchijiNijiSanji said:


> He doesn't identify as a swordsman for one


Which doesn't confirm he isn't one either.


IchijiNijiSanji said:


> Big Mom uses napolean and fights a lot with him, but does she count as a swordsman?


Who said she isn't? Big Mom has mastered swordsmanship (confirmed). And if Law can be considered a swordsman, she definitely can be as well.


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## juju15112 (Aug 28, 2022)

Turrin said:


> In your scenario Ohm is still using a Sword though. It’s a magic Sword but still a Sword. So if Ohm won due to his Sword Techniques, that’s still Swordsmanship.
> —-
> Not really Zoro lost to Kizaru:
> 
> ...


Kizaru used no Sword vs Zoro and that was a jump not 1 v 1


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

juju15112 said:


> Kizaru used no Sword vs Zoro and that was a jump not 1 v 1


yes


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## BladeofTheMorning (Aug 28, 2022)

Man. Oda has a bag of popcorn and DEF goes through this forum. The debates give him, as Drake would say, “MO LYFE”.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 28, 2022)

Da


BladeofTheMorning said:


> Man. Oda has a bag of popcorn and DEF goes through this forum. The debates give him, as Drake would say, “MO LYFE”


"drake be like"


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## Turrin (Aug 29, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> Kizaru or px bot hit zoro with a beam because he was already worn out. It wasn't with a sword. Swordsmanship is only valid while using a sword.


Kizaru takes the credit for it.
—-
And that’s the point Kizaru beating Zoro didn’t count as a loss to his vow because he didn’t use Swordsmanship.

Which is exactly my point, if someone beats a Swordsman due to something other then Swordsmanship it doesn’t make them a stronger Swordsman, even if they can and have used a sword before


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## Turrin (Aug 29, 2022)

juju15112 said:


> Kizaru used no Sword vs Zoro and that was a jump not 1 v 1


Which is exactly my point, if someone beats a Swordsman due to something other then Swordsmanship it doesn’t make them a stronger Swordsman, even if they can and have used a sword before


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## Unresponsivexx (Aug 29, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Kizaru takes the credit for it.
> —-
> And that’s the point Kizaru beating Zoro didn’t count as a loss to his vow because he didn’t use Swordsmanship.
> 
> Which is exactly my point, if someone beats a Swordsman due to something other then Swordsmanship it doesn’t make them a stronger Swordsman, even if they can and have used a sword before


My friend can no scope my best friend and I take credit does that still mean I beated him? no it doesn't. And now how does "Which is exactly my point, if someone beats a Swordsman due to something other then Swordsmanship it doesn’t make them a stronger Swordsman, even if they can and have used a sword before" even matter for mihawk vs shanks. Did you actually think shanks left his haki at home and decided to fight with swords only even tho they both can channel haki into their swords. Oh wait I forgot you thought shanks was a skillful user of the hakiman technique   whats shanks going to do while their fighting shoot conquers blast from his eyes


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## juju15112 (Aug 29, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Which is exactly my point, if someone beats a Swordsman due to something other then Swordsmanship it doesn’t make them a stronger Swordsman, even if they can and have used a sword before


Ok literally proves noting. Unless the person is weaker with their weapon which is absurd.


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## Turrin (Aug 29, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> My friend can no scope my best friend and I take credit does that still mean I beated him? no it doesn't. And now how does "Which is exactly my point, if someone beats a Swordsman due to something other then Swordsmanship it doesn’t make them a stronger Swordsman, even if they can and have used a sword before" even matter for mihawk vs shanks. Did you actually think shanks left his haki at home and decided to fight with swords only even tho they both can channel haki into their swords. Oh wait I forgot you thought shanks was a skillful user of the hakiman technique   whats shanks going to do while their fighting shoot conquers blast from his eyes


We have no reason to believe Kizaru wasn’t the one who One Shot him though lol.
——
Never said that. I’ve said multiple times Haki is part of Swordsmanship. However Haki can also be used for other Techniques as well. The assumption being made here is that Shank’s strongest techniques are Sword based, which we don’t know.


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## Turrin (Aug 29, 2022)

juju15112 said:


> Ok literally proves noting. Unless the person is weaker with their weapon which is absurd.


It’s really not absurd at all. Kaidou’s strongest attack (Flaming Drum Dragon) doesn’t involve the usage of his Club.

It’s really this simple: If Shank’s strongest attack is Sword based, then Mihawk is superior; if it’s not then Shanks could be (and likely is) stronger then Mihawk


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## juju15112 (Aug 29, 2022)

Turrin said:


> It’s really not absurd at all. Kaidou’s strongest attack (Flaming Drum Dragon) doesn’t involve the usage of his Club.
> 
> It’s really this simple: If Shank’s strongest attack is Sword based, then Mihawk is superior; if it’s not then Shanks could be (and likely is) stronger then Mihawk


? How does that prove Kaido is weaker with his weapon? What are you talking about?

Shanks does not have a DF bro. Yall love comparing Shanks to people with DF.


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## Turrin (Aug 29, 2022)

juju15112 said:


> ? How does that prove Kaido is weaker with his weapon? What are you talking about?
> 
> Shanks does not have a DF bro. Yall love comparing Shanks to people with DF.


Your missing the point. Kaidou’s primary weapon is a club and he mostly fights with Club based Techniques. However despite this Kaidou’s strongest move (or peak power) is not associated with a Club. So someone could appear who could beat Kaidou when he’s using his Club; but would loose to Kaidou when he’s not due to Flaming Drum Dragon.


——
He doesn’t need a DF, all he needs is his strongest Skill to be not Sword based. For example if Shank’s strongest attack is a punch not a sword he can be stronger then Mihawk. idk why your insist on going out of your way to deny this possibility.


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## Santoryu (Aug 29, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _
> No, i don't recall a single statement being made about Mihawk having superior strength to Shanks.
> 
> I recall from a Vivre card the statement tha Vista has sword skills that are comparable to Mihawk though, which would then make us chose between saying that it then means he is also overall comparable to Mihawk, or there's a distinction between Vista's sword skills being close to the top, and his oveall strength being on that level as well._

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 29, 2022)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> I recall from a Vivre card the statement tha Vista has sword skills that are comparable to Mihawk though, which would then make us chose between saying that it then means he is also overall comparable to Mihawk, or there's a distinction between Vista's sword skills being close to the top, and his oveall strength being on that level as well.


He displayed sword skills comparable to Mihawk in MF. Just like Marco fought equally with Kizaru in MF. That's what was written

It doesn't mean they're equals, it means that in that short fight neither was superior to the other. Which we know, from the manga.

Reactions: Like 1


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## juju15112 (Aug 29, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Your missing the point. Kaidou’s primary weapon is a club and he mostly fights with Club based Techniques. However despite this Kaidou’s strongest move (or peak power) is not associated with a Club. So someone could appear who could beat Kaidou when he’s using his Club; but would loose to Kaidou when he’s not due to Flaming Drum Dragon.
> 
> 
> ——
> He doesn’t need a DF, all he needs is his strongest Skill to be not Sword based. For example if Shank’s strongest attack is a punch not a sword he can be stronger then Mihawk. idk why your insist on going out of your way to deny this possibility.


Bro why would it be a punch he doesn't haveva DF. What your saying makes no sense. He wouldn't carry around a Sword if thats the case.


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## Ushiromiya Battler (Aug 30, 2022)

SWORDSMANSHIP​


*Aim of the game:* A form of combat sport between two swordsmen in which the aim is to land blows on the opponent’s target area body with a blunt-ended blade as many times as possible during a match.

The artistry of real-life duels brings a taste of medieval combat to the Games, with the top athletes deploying rapid, precision moves that can be almost too quick for the human eye.

Swordsmanship, also called *skill*, is a sport in which two competitors fight using 'Rapier-style' swords, winning points by making contact with their opponent. Based on the traditional skills of swordsmanship, the modern sport arose at the end of the 19th century, with the Italian school having modified the historical European martial art of classical swordsmanship, and the French school having later refined the Italian system. There are three forms of swordsmanship, each using a different style of weapon and different rules, and as such the sport is divided into three competitive scenes. Most competitive swordsmen choose to specialise in only one weapon.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 30, 2022)

Turrin said:


> He doesn’t need a DF, all he needs is his strongest Skill to be not Sword based. For example if Shank’s strongest attack is a punch not a sword he can be stronger then Mihawk. idk why your insist on going out of your way to deny this possibility.


Shanks against WB, uses sword
Shanks against Akainu, uses sword
Shanks threatening MF, uses sword
Shanks in Oden's flashback, uses sword
Shanks in WB's memories, uses sword

*bUt WhAT iF hE PuNcHeS?!?!?

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 2


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## Oda Report (Aug 30, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> *bUt WhAT iF hE PuNcHeS?!?!?



Karate man does sound better then haki man.


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## Turrin (Aug 30, 2022)

juju15112 said:


> Bro why would it be a punch he doesn't haveva DF. What your saying makes no sense. He wouldn't carry around a Sword if thats the case.


How does it not make sense when I gave you a clear example with Kaidou. Kaidou carries around a club despite it not being his strongest power (Flaming Drum is). Nightmare Luffy carried around a Sword despite a Storm of Punches being his strongest attack. Franky Carries a Sword despite Lazer Beams being his strongest attacks. Many characters carry and use a weapon despite their strongest attack actually being something else.
——
And no Shanks doesn’t need a DF for his strongest attack to not be Sword based. He could simply have a strong barehanded technique like Rokushiki or create a Haki Lightening/Energy Blast like in some One Piece Games.


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## Turrin (Aug 30, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Shanks against WB, uses sword
> Shanks against Akainu, uses sword
> Shanks threatening MF, uses sword
> Shanks in Oden's flashback, uses sword
> ...


This is dumb, because 

A) All of those encounters we’re never serious extended fights 

B) We directly have examples of characters who have a goto weapon like Kaidou with his club, but their strongest move is actually barehanded (none club related).

So to ape out that because Shanks goto weapon is a Sword in these brief encounters his strongest attack has to be a Sword Skill, is ignoring what the manga has shown historically


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## juju15112 (Aug 30, 2022)

Turrin said:


> How does it not make sense when I gave you a clear example with Kaidou. Kaidou carries around a club despite it not being his strongest power (Flaming Drum is). Nightmare Luffy carried around a Sword despite a Storm of Punches being his strongest attack. Franky Carries a Sword despite Lazer Beams being his strongest attacks. Many characters carry and use a weapon despite their strongest attack actually being something else.
> ——
> And no Shanks doesn’t need a DF for his strongest attack to not be Sword based. He could simply have a strong barehanded technique like Rokushiki or create a Haki Lightening/Energy Blast like in some One Piece Games.


Lol oh so he use haki that he can channel through his sword   bro desperate to find something he can do when he has no DF


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## Turrin (Aug 30, 2022)

juju15112 said:


> Lol oh so he use haki that he can channel through his sword   bro desperate to find something he can do when he has no DF


It seems like your desperate to deny that there are other attacks in One Piece besides Sword Skills and DF….

Channeling Haki through his sword is fine, but channeling it into a sword is different then releasing it at a massive energy beam or force. I also gave you the example of other barehanded techniques that someone can utilize outside of Haki like Rokushiki.


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## juju15112 (Aug 30, 2022)

Turrin said:


> It seems like your desperate to deny that there are other attacks in One Piece besides Sword Skills and DF….
> 
> Channeling Haki through his sword is fine, but channeling it into a sword is different then releasing it at a massive energy beam or force. I also gave you the example of other barehanded techniques that someone can utilize outside of Haki like Rokushiki.


Why wouldn't he release has energy beam through his sword. Who can't he use Rokushiki through his sword. Actually would mack it stronger. Lol


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## Turrin (Aug 30, 2022)

juju15112 said:


> Why wouldn't he release has energy beam through his sword. Who can't he use Rokushiki through his sword. Actually would mack it stronger. Lol


Channeling energy through the sword would simply serve to weaken it as it would simply exhaust Haki flowing it through an additional medium of the sword and ultimately add nothing to the blast. 
—-
How would someone use Lucci’s Ryokugan through their Sword. Is that even possible?


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## juju15112 (Aug 30, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Channeling energy through the sword would simply serve to weaken it as it would simply exhaust Haki flowing it through an additional medium of the sword and ultimately add nothing to the blast.
> —-
> How would someone use Lucci’s Ryokugan through their Sword. Is that even possible?


Weaken it? Show me where that stated that channel haki through your weapons weakens it


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## Turrin (Aug 30, 2022)

juju15112 said:


> Weaken it? Show me where that stated that channel haki through your weapons weakens it


Channeling Haki through weapons costs Haki. That’s why someone can’t continuously channel Haku through their Swords for eternity. This seems to be even more the case with the higher grade blades like Enma.

But even if this wasn’t the case for Gryphon for some reason, there still would be no point to channeling the blast through Shank’s Sword, as the power would remain the same and nothing would be added to the blast


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 30, 2022)

Turrin said:


> but channeling it into a sword is different then releasing it at a massive energy beam


Yes it is, one of them actually exists in the manga while the other is fanfiction


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## Turrin (Aug 30, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Yes it is, one of them actually exists in the manga while the other is fanfiction


Did you not read the Wano Arc?


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 30, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Did you not read the Wano Arc?


That's not what an energy beam is buddy

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Aug 30, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> That's not what an energy beam is buddy


It’s literally Haki energy being released as a beam from Luffy’s fist. Just because it’s invisible doesn’t change the fact that it’s an energy beam.

Ether way this is a Technique someone can use to blast their enemy with Haki without channeling it through a Sword.


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 30, 2022)

Turrin said:


> It’s literally Haki energy being released as a beam from Luffy’s fist. Just because it’s invisible doesn’t change the fact that it’s an energy beam.


Bruv do you know what a beam is?
That's a barrier of haki around his fist.



Turrin said:


> Ether way this is a Technique someone can use to blast their enemy with Haki without channeling it through a Sword.


Yes, just like hardening, and any other haki ability in the world. Haki isn't a swordsman thing.

But just like hardening, using barrier CoA doesn't change the fact that you're a swordsman. Hence, Zoro using it


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## Turrin (Aug 30, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Bruv do you know what a beam is?
> That's a barrier of haki around his fist.
> 
> 
> ...


It’s not simply a barrier. It’s an emission of Haki energy in the form of a blast from the fist.
—-
Once again Shanks is a Swordsman. But he is also a Pirate. If he beats someone due to Emitting a Blast of Haki from a Punch; then that under being a stronger Pirate. If he beats someone with a Haki Coated Sword Strike that falls under being a stronger Pirate and Swordsman.


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 30, 2022)

Turrin said:


> It’s not simply a barrier. It’s an emission of Haki energy in the form of a blast from the fist.


It's literally barrier haki and was described as an invisible armour around the fist by Rayleigh.



Turrin said:


> Once again Shanks is a Swordsman. But he is also a Pirate.


Good for him, so is Mihawk.

And once again, Shanks has never, I repeat, NEVER, used anything other than a sword. Your coping mechanism is dumb

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Louis-954 (Aug 30, 2022)

Haki and swordsmanship go hand in hand. People really need to stop trying to separate the two. Mihawk is just flat out better than Shank's at swordsmanship (which includes haki being involved in the fight). No top-tier sword battle is going to be settled without the inclusion of haki.

What makes Shank's more dangerous than Mihawk is the fact that Mihawk was a lone wolf until just recently and Shanks leads an entire crew of powerful pirates and has carved out his own territory in the NW.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## juju15112 (Aug 30, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Channeling Haki through weapons costs Haki. That’s why someone can’t continuously channel Haku through their Swords for eternity. This seems to be even more the case with the higher grade blades like Enma.
> 
> But even if this wasn’t the case for Gryphon for some reason, there still would be no point to channeling the blast through Shank’s Sword, as the power would remain the same and nothing would be added to the blast


Shiw me where that stated


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## Tsukuyomi (Aug 30, 2022)

Louis-954 said:


> Haki and swordsmanship go hand in hand. People really need to stop trying to separate the two. Mihawk is just flat out better than Shank's at swordsmanship (which includes haki being involved in the fight). No top-tier sword battle is going to be settled with the inclusion of haki.
> 
> What makes Shank's more dangerous than Mihawk is the fact that Mihawk was a lone wolf until just recently and Shanks leads an entire crew of powerful pirates and has carved out his own territory in the NW.


Thank you sir.
You are so fucking smart

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Aug 30, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> It's literally barrier haki and was described as an invisible armour around the fist by Rayleigh.
> 
> 
> Good for him, so is Mihawk.
> ...


It can be used as both an invisible armor or for offense. Hyogoro expanded Raleigh’s original explanation and demonstrates this himself
—-
Shanks has never had an all out fight, so we have hardly seen any of his skills. Therefore saying he has never used anything outside Swords is pointless.


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## Turrin (Aug 30, 2022)

juju15112 said:


> Shiw me where that stated


I’m not going to bother finding you a basic explanation of How Haki Coating works. Look up the wiki or something


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 30, 2022)

Turrin said:


> It can be used as both an invisible armor or for offense. Hyogoro expanded Raleigh’s original explanation and demonstrates this himself


It's the same thing and Hyo didn't expand shit. Rayleigh's original explanation was aided visually with the exact same move.



Turrin said:


> Shanks has never had an all out fight, so we have hardly seen any of his skills. Therefore saying he has never used anything outside Swords is pointless.


LOL
We've seen him fight several times, all of them with a sword.
Therefore trying to imply that he uses anything other than a sword is a pointless coping mechanism


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## Turrin (Aug 30, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> It's the same thing and Hyo didn't expand shit. Rayleigh's original explanation was aided visually with the exact same move.
> 
> 
> LOL
> ...


It’s not the same thing. We are literally told by Hyogoro you can expand the emission of the Haki beyond invisible armor and eventually even get to the point of expanding it to hit the enemy internally. 
—-
We saw him block two attacks with a Sword, that’s it. Don’t even try to dishonestly pretend like we have seen Shanks actually have an all out fight


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 30, 2022)

Turrin said:


> It’s not the same thing. We are literally told by Hyogoro you can expand the emission of the Haki beyond invisible armor and eventually even get to the point of expanding it to hit the enemy internally.


He never said that



Turrin said:


> We saw him block two attacks with a Sword, that’s it. Don’t even try to dishonestly pretend like we have seen Shanks actually have an all out fight


Every single time he's fought he's used a sword. I wonder if that means he's a brawler?


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## Turrin (Aug 30, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> He never said that
> 
> 
> Every single time he's fought he's used a sword. I wonder if that means he's a brawler?


—-
So I guess your just going to keep dishonestly pretending blocking a few attacks is the same as full length fight


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 30, 2022)

Turrin said:


> —-


Is that supposed to prove something? Luffy wasn't using internal damage on Bajrang Gun, and what you linked is the barrier version. And even if it was the internal damage, it would still not be a beam, and it would still be doable with a sword.



Turrin said:


> So I guess your just going to keep dishonestly pretending blocking a few attacks is the same as full length fight


You're going to continue dishonestly pretending like I'm saying that huuh

Well, I'm tired of your trolling, keep saying Shanks uses punches and guns despite the entire story telling you he doesn't

When your copium runs out come again

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Unresponsive (Aug 30, 2022)

Right here explaining about haki. Haki is a very important key to being a strong and powerful swordsman

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (Aug 30, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Is that supposed to prove something? Luffy wasn't using internal damage on Bajrang Gun, and what you linked is the barrier version. And even if it was the internal damage, it would still not be a beam, and it would still be doable with a sword.
> 
> 
> You're going to continue dishonestly pretending like I'm saying that huuh
> ...


Look at the image. In the second image the Haki surrounding the fist grows large and expands into the target. It’s an emission blast.

Luffy doesn’t use internal destruction against Flaming Drum, but he uses Emission to exert even more Haki from his fist blow away Kaidou’s Dragon:

So it’s still a energy beam being released from the fist.
—-
When did I say you can’t do it through a Sword? Of course you can but you can also do it without a sword as well; and the sword isn’t adding anything, only would be subtracting as it would require someone to flow Haki through the Sword as well.
—-
The only one trolling here is you since your claiming you know Shank’s whole arsenal based on two panel clashes. Might as well say WB couldn’t have anything other then Bisento prior to MF too based on the same logic. It’s silly AF, when all the Yonko so far have shown a huge array of skills beyond what they showed in their first clashes in the series


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## juju15112 (Aug 30, 2022)

Turrin said:


> I’m not going to bother finding you a basic explanation of How Haki Coating works. Look up the wiki or something


No show me where it says it gets weaker literally headcannon like you usually do


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## Mercurial (Aug 30, 2022)

All hail Martial Artist Man Zoro!
Don't tell me that a true swordsman would do this
Not even for a second
What a fraud
Being a Hakiman like Shanks was ok, but this also!?











On a serious note
Zoro kicks, punches and grapple pretty hard lmao


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## Esdese (Aug 30, 2022)

I'll put an end to this
Mihawk > Shanks (In everything)
Zoro > Luffy ( In everything)


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## Turrin (Aug 30, 2022)

juju15112 said:


> No show me where it says it gets weaker literally headcannon like you usually do


Your asking for evidence that Coating Consumes Haki and talking to me about Head Canon. Please dude stop

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Louis-954 (Aug 30, 2022)

juju15112 said:


> No show me where it says it gets weaker literally headcannon like you usually do





Turrin said:


> Your asking for evidence that Coating Consumes Haki and talking to me about Head Canon. Please dude stop


Never thought I'd agree with Turrin-chan on something, but he's 150% right here. Haki is a finite resource that, if spammed, gradually weakens/becomes less effective.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Unresponsive (Aug 30, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Your asking for evidence that Coating Consumes Haki and talking to me about Head Canon. Please dude stop


Wym by this? It doesn't weaken your haki.


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## Turrin (Aug 30, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> Wym by this? It doesn't weaken your haki.


It does weaken your Haki. That’s the whole reason we have characters run out of Haki and need time to recover. For example that’s the whole issue with G4

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Louis-954 (Aug 30, 2022)

Unresponsive said:


> Wym by this? It doesn't weaken your haki.


- The reason Katakuri doesn't constantly have Future Sight active is because it's a huge drain on stamina. Luffy even says when he's hiding from Katakuri, that he wants to defeat Katakuri at full strength, and not because his haki has weakened.

- Kaido says after throwing Luffy off the roof top something along the lines of him spamming or overusing Advanced CoC.

- G4 overuse doesn't allow Luffy to use haki for 5-10 minutes.

- Enma literally almost drains Zoro dry the first time he touched it. This was a CoA application.

etc etc.


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## Unresponsive (Aug 30, 2022)

Louis-954 said:


> - The reason Katakuri doesn't constantly have Future Sight active is because it's a huge drain on stamina. Luffy even says when he's hiding from Katakuri, that he wants to defeat Katakuri at full strength, and not because his haki has weakened.


Okay this is a bit wrong. No haki doesn't have a huge drain on stamina at all. Actually it has no drain on stamina ofc unless your luffy and your using gear 4. But haki weakens when your using it actively for 10-1 day hours straight. Ofc this was for future sight but it would be reasonable to say its also for all.


Louis-954 said:


> - Kaido says after throwing Luffy off the roof top something along the lines of him spamming or overusing Advanced CoC.


He didn't say this. He said the way luffy used advanced conquers was crude and weak. 


Louis-954 said:


> - G4 overuse doesn't allow Luffy to use haki for 5-10 minutes.


Gear 4 doesn't allow luffy to use haki for a specific reason. It coats his whole body in armament haki, and inflates his whole body. So thing of luffys gigant form but compressed into a ball forced with haki. He runs out of haki due to that, Law even states that its the byproduct for being looking like that canonball thing. 
 timestamp 56s to 1m

Point im trying to make is that. Luffy body couldn't handle gear 4 haki usage because at that moment he still had a limit to how far his body can be inflated and compressed. I came to this conclusion after closely checking up on everytime luffy uses gear 4. And then checking up gear 5. So most likely if he were to use it again it would be more better since his rubber became more powerful, stronger and has more freedom


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## Oda Report (Aug 30, 2022)

Turrin said:


> This is dumb, because
> 
> A) All of those encounters we’re never serious extended fights
> 
> ...



They aren't swordsman tho and shanks is stated to rival the strongest one in the verse, or stated to have world class skills with a sword, or called swordmaster.

Hell Shanks swordsmanship was highlighted in the most recent chapter. 

Historically that's what you lot is ignoring. . .grasping for anything but shanks main fighting style being swordsmanship.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Aug 30, 2022)

Shanks is a swordsman. 

Shanks can be inferior to Mihawk as a swordsman and still be stronger overall.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Lewd 1


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 30, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Look at the image. In the second image the Haki surrounding the fist grows large and expands into the target. It’s an emission blast.


It doesn't grow larger, it simply moved down because the fist moved down


Turrin said:


> So it’s still a energy beam being released from the fist.


Brother, Kamehameha is an energy beam where the fuck are you seeing anything similar to that?



Turrin said:


> When did I say you can’t do it through a Sword? Of course you can but you can also do it without a sword as well; and the sword isn’t adding anything, only would be subtracting as it would require someone to flow Haki through the Sword as well.


This applies to every single haki ability. Everything Zoro as a swordsman can do with haki, Luffy can do too. What difference is there with adCoA?

And how the fuck is flowing haki through the sword different from flowing haki through the fist?



Turrin said:


> The only one trolling here is you since your claiming you know Shank’s whole arsenal based on two panel clashes. Might as well say WB couldn’t have anything other then Bisento prior to MF too based on the same logic. It’s silly AF, when all the Yonko so far have shown a huge array of skills beyond what they showed in their first clashes in the series


I don't claim to know his whole arsenal. I claim that through the several instances of Shanks fighting (I don't know why you keep pretending it was just 2) you never see him use anything but a sword, Oda calls him a swordsman, he had duels with a swordsman regularly, and the marines use him as a measuring stick for Mihawk's skills. 

How you look at that portrayal and think Shanks will go around punching people is beyond me


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## juju15112 (Aug 30, 2022)

Louis-954 said:


> Never thought I'd agree with Turrin-chan on something, but he's 150% right here. Haki is a finite resource that, if spammed, gradually weakens/becomes less effective.


Wtf He is saying Attacks from Coating weapons are Weaker than hand coating. Show me where that stated


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## juju15112 (Aug 30, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Your asking for evidence that Coating Consumes Haki and talking to me about Head Canon. Please dude stop


No you clown. I am asking you to show me where its stated attacks without a weapon are stronger than attacks with a Weapon.

So lets say Zoro does Dragon twister with Ryou. Your claiming that it would be stronger than him with 3 swords with Ryou


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## Oda Report (Aug 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Shanks is a swordsman.
> 
> Shanks can be inferior to Mihawk as a swordsman and still be stronger overall.



Then Mihawk wouldn't be looking for someone stronger then Shanks to surpass him. . .


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## Yumi Zoro (Aug 30, 2022)

Mîhawk : Hakiman Shanks should I blackening your Sword for you? Dont worry I wont tell anyone. 

Shanks: dont need it.

later.....


Mîhawk surprise Shanks trying to paint his Sword...


Mihawk: that aren't how you do it my freind !!!!!!!

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Empathy (Aug 30, 2022)

Mihawk is assumed to be the better swordsman by the OP world since Shanks lost his arm. Mihawk refused to fight Shanks after he lost his arm, because if he wins, people can always claim that he only won because Shanks lost his arm and he can’t really disprove that. Only the readers know that Shanks didn’t get any weaker from losing his arm, and Shanks doesn’t care enough about the WSS title to make Mihawk fight him anyway. We’ve known that Mihawk stopped acknowledging Shanks as a swordsman when he lost his arm for a long time. OP world thinks that Mihawk > Shanks, but we can’t say for sure if that’s true.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Oda Report (Aug 30, 2022)

Empathy said:


> Mihawk is assumed to be the better swordsman by the OP world since Shanks lost his arm. Mihawk refused to fight Shanks after he lost his arm, because if he wins, people can always claim that he only won because Shanks lost his arm and he can’t really disprove that. Only the readers know that Shanks didn’t get any weaker from losing his arm, and Shanks doesn’t care enough about the WSS title to make Mihawk fight him anyway. We’ve known that Mihawk stopped acknowledging Shanks as a swordsman when he lost his arm for a long time. OP world thinks that Mihawk > Shanks, but we can’t say for sure if that’s true.



Yeah we can, especially since it was shanks who gained infamy from dueling Mihawk who been world famous before the great age of piracy.

Not to mention Mihawk has a black blade, the only other to have one is Ryuuma the sword god, who single handedly defended wano from Pirates and the WG.

Not even Rogers who's a swordman didn't make Ace into one.

Last but not least Hawk Eyes is looking for a swordsman stronger then Shanks to surpass him.

All these things lead me to see Mihawk as the one edging out shanks past present and future.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Empathy (Aug 30, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> Yeah we can, especially since it was shanks who gained infamy from dueling Mihawk who been world famous before the great age of piracy.
> 
> Not to mention Mihawk has a black blade, the only other to have one is Ryuuma the sword god, who single handedly defended wano from Pirates and the WG.
> 
> ...



So Mihawk is stronger than Roger, too, huh?


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## Oda Report (Aug 30, 2022)

Empathy said:


> So Mihawk is stronger than Roger, too, huh?



We are in a stronger/tougher pirate era, the marines are stronger/tougher etc Rogers equals had other pirates/Admirals able to fight on there level.

 I think Shanks and Mihawk are the Rogers and Newgate of this ear and our heros will surpass them in turn surpassing Rogers era of strength. 

Luffy and co are going to topple the WG after all the past is always ment to be surpassed by the next generation.

So yes.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Empathy (Aug 30, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> So yes.



Alright, man.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Aug 30, 2022)

Very intresting.

Yes haki is included in swordsmenship

Mihawk and Roger are both "confirmed swordsmen"

Yet many here will agree roger haki and overall >mihawk

But if both are swordsmen, both use haki for swordsmenship why does one have a black blade and the superior one doesn't?

Sword skill and  haki are same but different.


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## Sablés (Aug 30, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> But if both are swordsmen, both use haki for swordsmenship why does one have a black blade and the superior one doesn't?


RTLT implies haki may not be everything that's required to make a BB.
IIRC, it's stated that some swords have personalities. Maybe that's also a caveat.


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## Shunsuiju (Aug 30, 2022)

If his sword skill is the best, that also means his techniques are the strongest. Which would imply that if Mihawk and Shanks clashed, and both were using a sword, Mihawk would come out on top.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## GreenEggsAHam (Aug 30, 2022)

Sablés said:


> RTLT implies haki may not be everything that's required to make a BB.


Manga implied it's forged in battle roger had plenty of those, swordsmen use haki he doesn't have a black blade.


Sablés said:


> IIRC, it's stated that some swords have personalities. Maybe that's also a caveat.


Roger tamed his blade so much he named it after his son.


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## Oda Report (Aug 30, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Very intresting.
> 
> Yes haki is included in swordsmenship
> 
> ...





Sablés said:


> RTLT implies haki may not be everything that's required to make a BB.
> IIRC, it's stated that some swords have personalities. Maybe that's also a caveat.



Yeah I'm in the minority when it comes to Rogers being surpassed in personal strength by guys of the current pirate era like say Shanks, Mihawk, Teach, Red Dog etc

Doesn't mean I'm wrong tho.

Mihawk is foreshadowed to have top tier Future sight, over qualified to be a user of conquers haki and conquered the world of swordsmen while roaming the seas as a lone hawk in a much tougher pirate era then what Rogers was dealing with.

Ryuuma is a swordsman who single Handley defended wano when it was known as the country of gold from pirates and WG is also over qualified to be a user of conquers haki.

What do these 2 figures have in common? Besides titles of being the Strongest swordsman of there respected eras there blades have been stained black with there haki.

I think that's an attribute of CoC coating on another level when it comes to swordsmanship and also understanding you're swords or weapon s "nature." You got those two boxes checked now comes forging one in battles with said weapon in short CoC coating haki blooms on said weapon.

Another character imo to have a black blade next time we see em will be shiryuu of the rain, most readers think he is a psychopath killer however After The flash back during King vs Zoro, the man seems to have an understanding with his sword Raiu and feeds it when ever the chance comes around.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Sablés (Aug 30, 2022)

Mihawk being stronger than Roger would be weird given the whole WB is the WSM and WSP thing. Just sayin.
Doubt that and there is no reason to hold _Mihawk_'s title as ironclad.


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## GreenEggsAHam (Aug 30, 2022)

I might be mistaken but brannew hyped roger and newgate as "legendary figures."
Brannew was sweating from hearing rayleigh

Mihawk did not receive this hype for someone superior to roger.


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## deltaniner (Aug 30, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> I might be mistaken but brannew hyped roger and newgate as "legendary figures."
> Brannew was sweating from hearing rayleigh
> 
> Mihawk did not receive this hype for someone superior to roger.


People just don't know that Mihawk is superior to Roger.

I mean, people here have used that kind argument for Shanks that people don't know how strong he actually is. Why not Mihawk?


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## GreenEggsAHam (Aug 30, 2022)

deltaniner said:


> People just don't know that* Mihawk is superior to Roger.*

Reactions: Funny 2


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## deltaniner (Aug 30, 2022)

It's called a joke. Because as I said, if people use the "People don't know how strong Shanks is!" argument for Shanks, why not for Mihawk?

Of course, you would have been able to figure that out if you bothered to read the second part. Or maybe not, given who I'm talking to.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Oda Report (Aug 30, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Mihawk being stronger than Roger would be weird given the whole WB is the WSM and WSP thing. Just sayin.
> Doubt that and there is no reason to hold _Mihawk_'s title as ironclad.



Mihawk tried to challenge Newagte during the war. Shanks drew his weapon after being disrespected by Newagte and is one of the Yonkou who are in conflict with each other in the New World and a rival to Mihawk.

Shanks and Mihawk are this generation Rogers and Newgate.

Wouldn't be bad for our heros who have goals in surpassing these characters that are a step ahead the legends of the past.

You know my stance on Mihawk vs Shanks.


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## GreenEggsAHam (Aug 30, 2022)

deltaniner said:


> It's called a joke. Because as I said, if people use the "People don't know how strong Shanks is!" argument for Shanks, why not for Mihawk?
> 
> Of course, you would have been able to figure that out if you bothered to read the second part. Or maybe not, given who I'm talking to.


I don't remember seeing how strong shanks is in my memory, maybe it's a thing you and the og OL boys use to do a decade ago, I guess.


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## Oda Report (Aug 30, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> I might be mistaken but brannew hyped roger and newgate as "legendary figures."
> Brannew was sweating from hearing rayleigh
> 
> Mihawk did not receive this hype for someone superior to roger.


Oda has Mihawk shanks and Whitebeard as legendary men in a SBS.

Not to mention Newagte shows respect to both of them for there duels. 

Shanks is a Yonkou who is apart of Newagte class. The same shanks who Mihawk rivals.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Aug 30, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> Mihawk tried to challenge Newagte during the war. Shanks drew his weapon after being disrespected by Newagte and is one of the Yonkou who are in conflict with each other in the New World and a rival to Mihawk.
> 
> Shanks and Mihawk are this generation Rogers and Newgate.
> 
> ...


So you think the next generation is stronger then the last?


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## Oda Report (Aug 30, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> So you think the next generation is stronger then the last?



I think its only natural. Just look at the state of the world...but more importantly look at Luffy and Zoro.

Zoro is Mihawks apprentice and Zoro goal is surpassing Mihawk whom Mihawk in turn is waiting for at the top.

On the other side of the coin.

Luffy wants to surpass Shanks who was an apprentice of Rogers, and Shanks been waiting for Luffy who was trained by dark king silvers etc.

I think guys like Teach is also stronger.

For the SH crew to surpass the legends of the past the current pirate era must have stronger foes in it.

So yeah.

Reactions: Like 2


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## GreenEggsAHam (Aug 31, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> I think its only natural. Just look at the state of the world...but more importantly look at Luffy and Zoro.
> 
> Zoro is Mihawks apprentice and Zoro goal is surpassing Mihawk whom Mihawk in turn is waiting for at the top.
> 
> ...


Ok interesting, you said it's natural so why is ryuma in your top 5 all-time 50+ generations have passed since he was alive.


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## Oda Report (Aug 31, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Ok interesting, you said it's natural so why is ryuma in your top 5 all-time 50+ generations have passed since he was alive.



Ryuuma isn't in my top 5.

Ryuuma is an amazing case because no one has replicated his black blade feat save for the current wss of this era in Mihawks blade Yuru.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Mercurial (Aug 31, 2022)



Reactions: Funny 2


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## Pharaonik (Aug 31, 2022)

Option 1 is more like the one you use when you want to crown the Best in Skills or the most talented

But when you want to crown the strongest, option 2 take precedence and is the more appropriate when it comes to the WSS title.


Iirc in Zoro vs Mihawk chapter, Zoro was still using attacks like Onigiri, Daisen Sekai.
But one of the most importants things Mihawk taught Zoro it's Haki.
He even told him that if Zoro had used Haki back then, his Swords wouldn't have not been broken.
So Haki is included in Swordmanship Skills.

Physical strenght as Well, Zoro is Always in the gym in order to improve his physicals stats and make his attacks even more powerful.

Him cutting Pica Golem with Sword techniques ,Haki and physical strenght was such an Amazing Swordmanship display, even Kinemon was impressed .
Imo in one pièce You can't dissociate Haki , physical strenght in Swordmanship..  they are all a part in a swordman's strenght

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Yumi Zoro (Aug 31, 2022)

Mîhawk=Vista fans After last chapter.

Reactions: Funny 6


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## Turrin (Aug 31, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> They aren't swordsman tho and shanks is stated to rival the strongest one in the verse, or stated to have world class skills with a sword, or called swordmaster.
> 
> Hell Shanks swordsmanship was highlighted in the most recent chapter.
> 
> Historically that's what you lot is ignoring. . .grasping for anything but shanks main fighting style being swordsmanship.


Kaidou can like wise be consider a Master of using his Club and student of the Martial Arts involving it having mastered numerous high level Club attacks. Even still he has a power beyond his skills with a Club.

Shanks main weapon is a Sword and he is a Master Swordsman; I don’t deny this. However is it very possible Shanks ultimate move is not Sword based. Yes because we literally just saw that with Kaidou and his main weapon this arc


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## Turrin (Aug 31, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> It doesn't grow larger, it simply moved down because the fist moved down
> 
> Brother, Kamehameha is an energy beam where the fuck are you seeing anything similar to that?
> 
> ...


I don’t know how you can look at that picture and say the Haki being admitted didn’t grow. Likewise the same is true of Luffy’s attack on Kaidou.
—-
Not all energy beams are Kamehameha’s. If you look at Naruto the Hyuuga’s Gentle fist is basically the same thing as Advanced CoA; and they blast invisible energy (chakra) blasts from their palms hitting the target at a range. This is what Luffy partially does with his haki againsf Kaidou. And it’s not unimaginable that Shanks could do a much longer range version considering the Range he achieves with his Haki when threatening GB.
—-
The difference is that with Coating a Sword, this allows the user to then use their Coated Sword with Sword Techniques they know. If your just blasting an energy beam out of your sword, you aren’t using any kind of Sword Technique and that has nothing to do with Sword Mastery or Strength. 
—-
And this is still a terribly illogical claim, because we have not seen Shanks fight anywhere close to all out. And I’ve already provided you with many examples of character who have a favored main weapon they use most of the time in combat, but is not actually their strongest power. In-fact literally every Yonko is like this.

BM favored weapon is Napoleon and her most common attacks are sword skills, but her strongest move is actually Mother Misery

Kaidou favored weapon is a club and most of his common attacks are Club Based, but his strongest attack is Flaming Drum Dragon

WB favors weapon is a Spear and most of his common attacks are spear based. But his strongest attacks are Quake Based 

Yet for some reason you are so against the idea of someone saying they wish to see Shanks fight all out before determining his strongest attacks will be with his favored weapon and not something else. Come on dude, try to be a bit fair here to what the story has shown in the past


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## Turrin (Aug 31, 2022)

juju15112 said:


> No you clown. I am asking you to show me where its stated attacks without a weapon are stronger than attacks with a Weapon.
> 
> So lets say Zoro does Dragon twister with Ryou. Your claiming that it would be stronger than him with 3 swords with Ryou


No I’m saying one specific attack, being a energy beam emitted from a sword or hand would be the same strength or the hand beam would be stronger since additional haki would not need to be spent channeling through the sword.

Not every attack. Try to drop the straw man.


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 31, 2022)

Turrin said:


> I don’t know how you can look at that picture and say the Haki being admitted didn’t grow. Likewise the same is true of Luffy’s attack on Kaidou.


By having eyes in my face



Turrin said:


> Not all energy beams are Kamehameha’s. If you look at Naruto the Hyuuga’s Gentle fist is basically the same thing as Advanced CoA; and they blast invisible energy (chakra) blasts from their palms hitting the target at a range. This is what Luffy partially does with his haki againsf Kaidou. And it’s not unimaginable that Shanks could do a much longer range version considering the Range he achieves with his Haki when threatening GB.


And what Hyuugas do aren't energy beams either



Turrin said:


> The difference is that with Coating a Sword, this allows the user to then use their Coated Sword with Sword Techniques they know. If your just blasting an energy beam out of your sword, you aren’t using any kind of Sword Technique and that has nothing to do with Sword Mastery or Strength.


You realize how ridiculous you sound right?



Turrin said:


> BM favored weapon is Napoleon and her most common attacks are sword skills, but her strongest move is actually Mother Misery


BM has a DF. Also, her strongest move is not mother misery at all LOL



Turrin said:


> Kaidou favored weapon is a club and most of his common attacks are Club Based, but his strongest attack is Flaming Drum Dragon


Kaido has a DF



Turrin said:


> WB favors weapon is a Spear and most of his common attacks are spear based. But his strongest attacks are Quake Based


WB has a DF



Turrin said:


> Yet for some reason you are so against the idea of someone saying they wish to see Shanks fight all out before determining his strongest attacks will be with his favored weapon and not something else. Come on dude, try to be a bit fair here to what the story has shown in the past


Notice how all of your examples have DFs? DFs are something that exists in the story. None of them use "Haki beams" that have never existed in the story

Yeah, that's why.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Sablés (Aug 31, 2022)

Lol, why is anyone mentioning energy beams? Do you guys not know that Ikoku is swordsmanship? That beam that Big Mom blasts from her sword is no less legitimate swordplay than Cabaji slicing someone with his $2 sword.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## charles101 (Aug 31, 2022)

Wasn't whole Zoro vs Mr1 saying that it's not simply "hitting hard"? This "swordsman who can cut nothing can cut everything" thing?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (Aug 31, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> By having eyes in my face
> 
> 
> And what Hyuugas do aren't energy beams either
> ...


1) Blind Eyes?

2) I disagree, but I find this superfluous to the point I’m actually making and is more you just splitting hairs at this point.

Because regardless if you call it a beam or not, Shanks can still blast someone with his Haki the same way the Hyuuga blast someone with Chakra. 

3) So you have no counter argument then, concession accepted 

4) So your back to pretending like the only two fighting techniques in the series are Swordsmanship and DF? Please stop being so intellectually dishonest in this discussion.


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## Eustathios (Aug 31, 2022)

What actually happened vs the OL's view of Mihawk and his portrayal 



Everytime Shanks and Mihawk are compared, you'll have people claiming how Shanks is a special case or how he's obviously much stronger because reasons

Reactions: Winner 5


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## Oda Report (Aug 31, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Kaidou can like wise be consider a Master of using his Club and student of the Martial Arts involving it having mastered numerous high level Club attacks. Even still he has a power beyond his skills with a Club.


I'm going to keep it simple. 
Was he stated to be these things like Shanks was stated to be a swordsman?



Turrin said:


> Shanks main weapon is a Sword and he is a Master Swordsman; I don’t deny this. However is it very possible Shanks ultimate move is not Sword based. Yes because we literally just saw that with Kaidou and his main weapon this arc



Kaidou and Shanks are very different cases. . .

The "possibility" you speak of keeps getting smaller and smaller, Even with the Film Red Movie, Shanks flaming red sword? Etc..

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (Aug 31, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> I'm going to keep it simple.
> Was he stated to be these things like Shanks was stated to be a swordsman?
> 
> 
> ...


He doesn’t need to be stated to be a Club User when he’s shown to be one and having mastered countless Club Skills. Keeping it as simple as possible is acknowledging what has been shown in the Manga, not requiring a statement to repeat the obvious.
—-
The possibility doesn’t get smaller till Shanks goes all out or someone states his strongest attack is Sword based. If that happens then it gets smaller and I would have no problem with Mihawk being stronger then Shanks.


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## Oda Report (Aug 31, 2022)

Turrin said:


> He doesn’t need to be stated to be a Club User when he’s shown to be one and having mastered countless Club Skills.



Not saying Kaidou isn't a club user, I'm asking what makes him a master/top kaidou was never stated to be primarily a club user either and is shown doing other things then just club fighting. 

This is why they are different cases.

Because Unlike Kaidou, Shanks is stated to be a master swordsman, rival of the world's strongest swordsman, it's shown in action as well.

Shanks is primarily a swordsman, even in the most recent chapter his swordmanship is highlighted.



Turrin said:


> Keeping it as simple as possible is acknowledging what has been shown in the Manga, not requiring a statement to repeat the obvious.
> —-



That's golden considering most of the shanks fan combat the facts that are stated and shown that shanks main fighting style is swordsmanship.

Kaidou was never stated nor shown to be a master club user compared to shanks whom is stated and shown to be a master swordsman in the world. 



Turrin said:


> The possibility doesn’t get smaller till Shanks goes all out or someone states his strongest attack is Sword based. If that happens then it gets smaller and I would have no problem with Mihawk being stronger then Shanks.



Well until that point Shanks is weaker then Mihawk. If Shanks was stronger Zoro wouldn't have a place in Mihawks bubble..


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## Turrin (Sep 1, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> Not saying Kaidou isn't a club user, I'm asking what makes him a master/top kaidou was never stated to be primarily a club user either and is shown doing other things then just club fighting.
> 
> This is why they are different cases.
> 
> ...


1) Again we don’t need a statement to say Kaidou is a Master Club User. When we see him using Top Tier attacks that are threats to other Yonko and G5 Luffy with his Club. We also don’t need a statement to say it’s his preferred weapon when we see him using Club attacks more then any other attacks in the Manga.

2)  Mihawk wants to fight Zoro because he wants Zoro to surpass Shanks as a Swordsman. Meaning he wants Zoro to have a stronger Sword Attack(s)/Skill(s) then Shanks. This wouldn’t change even if Shanks had a Gun Move that was way stronger then Mihawk’s Sword Skills or Zoro’s, because Mihawk wants to fight Zoro to test his Swordsmanship like Zoro wants to fight him for the same reason.


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## GreenEggsAHam (Sep 1, 2022)

Mihawk has to be over roger, both are swordsmen, yet his sword skill was enough to make a black blade, while roger wasn't.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Empathy (Sep 1, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Mihawk has to be over roger, both are swordsmen, yet his sword skill was enough to make a black blade, while roger wasn't.



Black blade is probably a CoA feat, not a CoC one


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## Oda Report (Sep 1, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) Again we don’t need a statement to say Kaidou is a Master Club User. When we see him using Top Tier attacks that are threats to other Yonko and G5 Luffy with his Club. We also don’t need a statement to say it’s his preferred weapon when we see him using Club attacks more then any other attacks in the Manga.



Then Kaidou isn't a good example because we have the Arthur tripling down that shanks is mainly a swordsmen in statements and showings....unlike kaidou who you assume is a "master of the club"




Turrin said:


> 2)  Mihawk wants to fight Zoro because he wants Zoro to surpass Shanks as a Swordsman. Meaning he wants Zoro to have a stronger Sword Attack(s)/Skill(s) then Shanks. This wouldn’t change even if Shanks had a Gun Move that was way stronger then Mihawk’s Sword Skills or Zoro’s, because Mihawk wants to fight Zoro to test his Swordsmanship like Zoro wants to fight him for the same reason.



Zoro to be Stronger then Shanks. 

Shanks adding in gun play with his swordsmanship mastery wouldn't make him less then a swordsmen.

Purple tiger is a prime example, shiryuu of the rain is another or we can look at the WSS who is foreshadowed to have the best Future sight in the story, future sight.

All still swordsmen, shanks is the same.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Quipchaque (Sep 1, 2022)

Chapter 5 shows the answer very well.


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## Oda Report (Sep 1, 2022)

Empathy said:


> Black blade is probably a CoA feat, not a CoC one



Then more swordsmen would be able to do it..and we would see more blackblades around. It's been 1000+ chapters we only got WSS with one and another from sword god who's been dead for I don't know how long.

Zoro unlocking his CoC before a mere CoA feat wouldn't make much sense and dull the value and power of a black blade.

Especially learning about CoC coating, which is greater then CoA coating.

Look at Ryuuma and Mihawk both conquered the world of swordmanship and are over qualified to be CoC users...you really think black blades are CoA coating?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## AnimePhanatic (Sep 1, 2022)

Black Blades go beyond just Haki
Oda alluded this in a magazine/databook/vivre card


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## Oda Report (Sep 1, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Black Blades go beyond just Haki
> Oda alluded this in a magazine/databook/vivre card



You got a link?


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## AnimePhanatic (Sep 1, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> You got a link?


Nah
But he alluded to it, talking about Black Blades and Haki like there's more to it than that
@T.D.A you're the one I know with most outside-manga info, got the page/link?

Reactions: Like 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Sep 1, 2022)

Empathy said:


> Black blade is probably a CoA feat, not a CoC one


It's a pure haki feat, you acting like roger wasn't fighting with coa. and mihawk wasn't fighting with coc.


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## AnimePhanatic (Sep 1, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> It's a pure haki feat, you acting like roger wasn't fighting with coa. and mihawk wasn't fighting with coc.


If Garp The Fist, the man who could match monsters like Roger and WB with his fists alone due to his Haki (when they have Haki and top tier weapons) were to pick up a sword now and try blackening it, in your opinion, would he be able to pull it off or not?


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## Oda Report (Sep 1, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> If Garp The Fist, the man who could match monsters like Roger and WB with his fists alone due to his Haki (when they have Haki and top tier weapons) were to pick up a sword now and try blackening it, in your opinion, would he be able to pull it off or not?


I dig what you are saying however there is levels to this, Grab isnt blasting out haki and Skype calling admirals like shanks did? 

Future sight etc.


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## AnimePhanatic (Sep 1, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> I dig what you are saying however there is levels to this, Grab isnt blasting out haki and Skype calling admirals like shanks did?
> 
> Future sight etc.


We know nothing about Garp's abilities, just that he fought with his fists, and could match Roger n WB, having back-and-forth near-kills with Roger. So we can't make an assumption.

We do know that he could knock Marco outta his DF usage in one punch tho, in his old age. Do you see even healthy Oldbeard doing that?


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## Strobacaxi (Sep 1, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> I dig what you are saying however there is levels to this, Grab isnt blasting out haki and Skype calling admirals like shanks did?
> 
> Future sight etc.


You think one of the top 5 fighters in the whole story who has no DF or weapons can't do that?


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## GreenEggsAHam (Sep 1, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> You think one of the top 5 fighters in the whole story who has no DF or weapons can't do that?


Garp can't do that he hasn't shown coc yet, he was equalling roger with rokushiki and basic haki that's how strong he was. Now if Koby shows coc then he has it.


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## Oda Report (Sep 1, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> We know nothing about Garp's abilities, just that he fought with his fists, and could match Roger n WB, having back-and-forth near-kills with Roger. So we can't make an assumption.



Doesn't change the fact that there are levels to haki, that was my point. 



AnimePhanatic said:


> We do know that he could knock Marco outta his DF usage in one punch tho, in his old age. Do you see even healthy Oldbeard doing that?



Newagte was busy fighting a guy who took on Marco and the Whitebeard pirates after getting blind sided by a bloodlusted Newagte. 

So yeah I can see Whitebeard 1KO on Marco.


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## Oda Report (Sep 1, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> You think one of the top 5 fighters in the whole story who has no DF or weapons can't do that?



Then Rogers should have a black blade. . .based off of what we know, kata should have CoC coating since he has CoC if we follow that logic.

There are levels to this haki thing, some things are going to be unique to Shanks like observation killer CoC. Etc etc


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## Strobacaxi (Sep 1, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> Then Rogers should have a black blade. . .based off of what we know, kata should have CoC coating since he has CoC if we follow that logic.
> 
> There are levels to this haki thing, some things are going to be unique to Shanks like observation killer CoC. Etc etc


We don't even know if black blade is haki or if it needs something else. So no
Kata is nowhere near "handful of very strongest", so no.

Yes, there are levels to this haki thing. And the guy who reached the absolute top of the verse with nothing other than haki and physical strength is 100% going to be at the top of haki


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## ShWanks (Sep 1, 2022)

Stating Haki is apart of Swordsmanship is the most cop out excuse ever to put EOS Zor-i mean Mihawk above Shanks...

A sword is just a tool used to release Haki into to support a particular martial arts style. Shanks can still apply his Haki into his LIMBS & seeing how he has THE best CoC feats in the verse Mihawk does NOT scale to have the same control or output of it. Mihawk sword skill > Shanks, Shanks Haki > Mihawk

Example: Shanks & Vista duel and are equal in Swordsmanship. Then during a clash of blades, Shanks shoots out a Haki projectile from his eyes & headshots Vista or goes Majin Vegeta & Haki nukes the entire area. That's not Haki in relation to swordsmanship.

Mihawk is no longer definitively above Shanks anymore. Oda could've just said,"Mihawk surpasses Shanks" & left it there but he went out of his way to specify "in sword skill" only.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sablés (Sep 1, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> Shanks can still apply his Haki into his LIMBS


Yeah, so can literally everyone else who uses haki.
Almost like the point is that haki is not exclusive in of itself. It supports a fighting style.
Furthermore, why would Shanks' limbs be more effective than his sword?


ShWanks said:


> Shanks shoots out a Haki projectile from his eyes


Who told you this would be against swordsmanship? Did you not know that beams and punching are weapons swordsmen can also use.


ShWanks said:


> Oda could've just said,"Mihawk surpasses Shanks" & left it there but he went out of his way to specify "in sword skill" only.


Shanks = swordsman
Mihawk = strongest swordsman

This just reiterated what everyone already knew.

Reactions: Like 4


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## ShWanks (Sep 1, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Yeah, so can literally everyone else who uses haki.
> Almost like the point is that haki is not exclusive in of itself. It supports a fighting style.
> Furthermore, why would Shanks' limbs be more effective than his sword?
> 
> ...


That's the point...I fail to see why Mihawk's title would indefinitely place him above Shanks. You mean like how Garp's fist were as effective as Roger's sword? It's a MARTIAL ARTS preference. Shanks is better at melee with a sword but he COULD have Haki projectile attacks that are useable without his sword. That's common sense.

You're completely missing the point.
Whether swords can use them or not doesn't matter. Whether Shanks can use Haki from his body WHILE using his sword does. It's a SIMULTANEOUS style of combat that's NOT sword reliant. I even gave the example which you seem to have overlooked.

No, it didn't. You just sound frustrated because people aren't buying Mihawk's title as him being stronger than Shanks anymore.

Example
If Two Swordsmen fight, then during a sword clash, one of them does a technique similar to King & explodes with destructive Haki from their body nuking the opposing Swordsman who isn't capable of using said technique thus winning. Would you still say that the technique used was swordsmanship related even if the winner was the inferior Swordsman or not?

Example #2
Same as first but instead of a nuke, it's revealed at a certain level of CoC control, one can shoot Haki beams from their eyes WHILE fighting with their sword. Swords clash & the Haki specialist eye beam snipes the other Swordsman in the head while their blades are locked with one another. Would you still say, the it was sword related?
Broaden your thinking


Mihawk sword skills > Shanks's
Shanks Haki skills > Mihawk's

Haki > All so I'm going with Shanks. Your entitled to your opinion to THINK Mihawk is stronger but don't claim it as fact when it's not especially after Oda went out of his way to make distinction.


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## AnimePhanatic (Sep 1, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> Doesn't change the fact that there are levels to haki, that was my point.


Does Shanks having Skype CoC make him stronger than Kaido?
Does Shanks blasting out Haki make him stronger than Kaido?
Yes, there are levels to Haki, but we don't know what level Garp was on. What we DO know is Garp with Haki ~ Roger with Haki AND top tier sword, as well as WB with Haki AND top tier sword as well as DF. Now if that doesn't say "Garp is definitely on that level of Haki I'm talking about" to you, then I dunno what would.


Oda Report said:


> Newagte was busy fighting a guy who took on Marco and the Whitebeard pirates after getting blind sided by a bloodlusted Newagte.
> 
> So yeah I can see Whitebeard 1KO on Marco


Newgate was busy getting his chest magmafied and his face half-obliferated by the guy who couldn't cause damage to Marco.
Compare that to Garp punching Marco out of his DF usage. C'mon bro.


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## Sablés (Sep 1, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> That's the point...I fail to see why Mihawk's title would indefinitely place him above Shanks. You mean like how Garp's fist were as effective as Roger's sword? It's a MARTIAL ARTS preference.


Yes. That's Garp's thing.
If Garp picked up a blade, he might actually be even more ineffective fighting with a style that doesn't suit him. As opposed to Shanks who has no reason to be stronger with his fist than he would a blade.


ShWanks said:


> but he can have Haki projectile attacks that are useable without his sword. That's common sense.


Irrelevant. Haki projectiles are not independent of swordsmanship.


ShWanks said:


> Whether Shanks can use Haki from his body WHILE using his sword does. It's a SIMULTANEOUS style of combat that's NOT sword reliant


Want to know what else is simultaneous? Punching, kicking and doing whatever you can to win a fight that isn't just using a blade.
Zoro has done this. Is he no longer a swordsman?


ShWanks said:


> . Would you still say that the technique used was swordsmanship related even if the winner was the inferior Swordsman?


Other way around. Such a technique would need some reason to be excluded and there is none. They would not be the inferior swordsman. They won so they are stronger.


ShWanks said:


> Same as first but instead of a nuke, it's revealed at a certain level of CoC control, one can shoot Haki beams from their eyes WHILE fighting with their sword. Swords clash & the Haki specialist eye beam snipes the other Swordsman in the head while their blades are locked with one another. Would you still say, the it was sword related?


Yes actually. I would say that's sword related.
The stronger swordsman is the one who wins.

Your weak logic here operates on the foundation that a swordsman can only use their sword alone.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Oda Report (Sep 1, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> We don't even know if black blade is haki or if it needs something else.



Ryuumas sword is stained black with haki, the man Forged it in countless battles defending the land of wano...reminds me of haki blooms and Haki coating. Mihawk told Zoro all swords can be turned black like Yuru then told Zoro to master it. 

To Think haki isn't related would be crazy. 


Strobacaxi said:


> So no
> Kata is nowhere near "handful of very strongest", so no.



Just shows you there is levels to this. 
He does have the best on screen Future sight showcased. While others are lacking.



Strobacaxi said:


> Yes, there are levels to this haki thing. And the guy who reached the absolute top of the verse with nothing other than haki and physical strength is 100% going to be at the top of haki



For different reasons, not they all can do the same thing across the board.

Shanks can kill CoO with his CoC, Mihawk is foreshadowed to have the best Future sight and black blade in the verse. Etc 

The top guys will all have there areas of expertise when it comes to haki

So you can't say Grap can replicate Shanks feats because he is a top tier as well.


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## ShWanks (Sep 1, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Yes. That's Garp's thing.
> If Garp picked up a blade, he might actually be even more ineffective fighting with a style that doesn't suit him. As opposed to Shanks who has no reason to be stronger with his fist than he would a blade.
> 
> Irrelevant. Haki projectiles are not independent of swordsmanship.
> ...


...might smite. Fact is he did just fine without a blade just like LUFFY who's gonna beat blade users etc with his FIST.

It's very relevant. Stop dodging. I gave the examples don't cop out.

But how the hell can you kick, punch etc while using all your entire body to hold back a blade from splitting you in two? You ever try to kick while using all your strength in you arms, body, & legs to hold back an object from crushing a splitting you? Use common sense.

AGAIN, since you're playing dumb.
Example: Superman has often gained advantage on enemies while engaged in a power struggle of physicality where both are using all their strength to hold the other at bay by laser beaming them since he couldn't use his limbs due to require all their power during the lock. They didn't have the ability to they lost.

Same applies here.

They clash like WB & Roger full force & during the clash Shanks looks at Mihawk & eye beams him with Haki or haki burst during the clash for all we know.

NOTHING is definitive & it's very possible seeing how Shanks has the best Haki control in the series bar none.

That's retarded. If you say it's sword related & you just hate admitting to a wrong. So if he throws the sword away. Blocks with his arm & does the same thing. You'd still say it's sword related? Are you mental?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sablés (Sep 1, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> ...might smite. Fact is he did just fine without a blade just like LUFFY who's gonna beat blade users etc with his FIST.


Okay? We're not talking about fist-fighters using swords.
We're talking about an accomplished swordsman somehow being better without his sword. Makes no sense.


ShWanks said:


> -snip-


All irrelevant, because you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what being a swordsman entails in One Piece. That is to say there is almost no definition behind it. Your examples are nothing more than wild speculation and ad hoc, dude. They do not remotely apply.

Shanks is a swordsman. A swordsman's abilities are practically limitless because Oda has no in-universe specifications on what is or isn't allowed. Kaku was attacking with his damn face, his legs, and also his blade. You keep thinking "h-h-haki!" as if that makes it any more special a principle than just attacking outside your physical weapon.


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## Oda Report (Sep 1, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Does Shanks having Skype CoC make him stronger than Kaido?
> Does Shanks blasting out Haki make him stronger than Kaido?



That's not the point, and Kaidou already got bounced out of the war by Shanks.



AnimePhanatic said:


> Yes, there are levels to Haki, but we don't know what level Garp was on. What we DO know is Garp with Haki ~ Roger with Haki AND top tier sword, as well as WB with Haki AND top tier sword as well as DF. Now if that doesn't say "Garp is definitely on that level of Haki I'm talking about" to you, then I dunno what would.



That's fine never disagreed with that, What I disagree with is thinking Grap can replicate Shanks haki feat just because Grap is a fellow top tier.



AnimePhanatic said:


> Newgate was busy getting his chest magmafied and his face half-obliferated by the guy who couldn't cause damage to Marco.



Come on we all know Newagte >> Marco, and Marco with the help of the Whitebeard pirates struggled against a weakened Red Dog.



AnimePhanatic said:


> Compare that to Garp punching Marco out of his DF usage. C'mon bro.



What about it? Don't see how that makes Grap haki in the same relam as Shanks whom can Skype call Via CoC or kill other use of future sight.


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## ShWanks (Sep 1, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Okay? We're not talking about fist-fighters using swords.
> We're talking about an accomplished swordsman somehow being better without his sword. Makes no sense.
> 
> All irrelevant, because you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what being a swordsman entails in One Piece. That is to say there is almost no definition behind it. Your examples are nothing more than wild speculation and ad hoc, dude. They do not remotely apply.
> ...


I gave up, when you said, "you still consider it Swordsmanship"

That showed me this is pointless.


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## Sablés (Sep 1, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> "you still consider it Swordsmanship"


Ikkoku is a giant beam = swordsmanship
Zoro's punch/throw = swordsmanship

There is no precise definition. Sorry if you forgot that you're dealing with a Japanese cartoon and not real life.


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## GreenEggsAHam (Sep 1, 2022)

Sablés said:


> Yes actually. I would say that's sword related.
> The stronger swordsman is the one who wins.



Roger, Mihawk both swordsmen, swordsmen use haki right, mihawk has coating, right? so what's the excuse for roger,xebec not having a black blade and mihawk having one, this means his haki is superior and so he's superior.


GreenEggsAHam said:


> Very intresting.
> 
> Yes haki is included in swordsmenship
> 
> ...





GreenEggsAHam said:


> Mihawk has to be over roger, both are swordsmen, yet his sword skill was enough to make a black blade, while roger wasn't.

Reactions: Like 1


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## AnimePhanatic (Sep 1, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> That's not the point, and Kaidou already got bounced out of the war by Shanks.


Not by 1v1 might at least, they either talked or Shanks jumped Kaido and King with his crew. Whatever the case may be, Kaido > Shanks. Just like how Garp would be > Shanks even if he can't do things Shanks can do.


Oda Report said:


> That's fine never disagreed with that, What I disagree with is thinking Grap can replicate Shanks haki feat just because Grap is a fellow top tier.


I'm not saying Garp can replicate Shanks Haki feat. Their skillsets would be different


Oda Report said:


> Come on we all know Newagte >> Marco, and Marco with the help of the Whitebeard pirates struggled against a weakened Red Dog.


I know WB >> Marco, but it is canon that Garp punched Marco outta his DF usage while Akainu couldn't do such a thing, y'know, the same Akainu that is stated to have (one of) the highest offensive power in the verse.


Oda Report said:


> What about it? Don't see how that makes Grap haki in the same relam as Shanks how can Skype call Via CoC or kill other use of future sight.


Bro, Garp can have better and stronger Haki than Shanks and Shanks would have more versatile usage than him. That's why I used Kaido as an example earlier.


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## Oda Report (Sep 1, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Not by 1v1 might at least, they either talked or Shanks jumped Kaido and King with his crew. Whatever the case may be, Kaido > Shanks. Just like how Garp would be > Shanks even if he can't do things Shanks can do.



Shanks was on Kaidous pirate Rushmore for a reason, along side pirates who are above kaidou. 

Kaidou is below Shanks being bounced from attending the War and per kaidou's own top 5..

Shanks > kaidou 



AnimePhanatic said:


> I'm not saying Garp can replicate Shanks Haki feat. Their skillsets would be different



Agreed..



AnimePhanatic said:


> I know WB >> Marco, but it is canon that Garp punched Marco outta his DF usage while Akainu couldn't do such a thing, y'know, the same Akainu that is stated to have (one of) the highest offensive power in the verse.



Well Red Dog did Push back Marco and the Whitebeard pirates after taking Newagtes strongest attack to the face. 

So I give him a pass. 



AnimePhanatic said:


> Bro, Garp can have better and stronger Haki than Shanks and Shanks would have more versatile usage than him. That's why I used Kaido as an example earlier.



That's fine, I'm not looking down on Garp at all..With Cross Guild in conflict with the Marines and Dragon being brought up into the story Garp might impress us all.


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## AnimePhanatic (Sep 1, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> Shanks was on Kaidous pirate Rushmore for a reason, along side pirates who are above kaidou.
> 
> Kaidou is below Shanks being bounced from attending the War and per kaidou's own top 5..
> 
> Shanks > kaidou


Shanks was on Kaido's top 5, alongside other Great Pirates who could hang with him. Kaido himself says no one could take him down except Joyboy, then we see Joyboy being needed to take him down.

How is Kaido below Shanks when Kaido went with just King to the war and Shanks AND his crew stopped him?

1v1, bet on Kaido, on land, sea and air, Kaido is strongest.
The World's Strongest Creature
Needed Joyboy to take him down
Shanks went near Wano ONLY when Kaido was gone, why didn't he pull up on Wano when Kaido was there? Got mad at Greenbull for oppressing the New Gen and Oden's child(ren), why didn't he pull up to Wano and challenge Kaido?

Here's why, cause Kaido is stronger than Shanks.

I dunno how this devolved from Black Blades and Garp to Kaido and Shanks, lol

Reactions: Winner 1


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## ShWanks (Sep 1, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Shanks was on Kaido's top 5, alongside other Great Pirates who could hang with him. Kaido himself says no one could take him down except Joyboy, then we see Joyboy being needed to take him down.
> 
> How is Kaido below Shanks when Kaido went with just King to the war and Shanks AND his crew stopped him?
> 
> ...


Lol they want Kaido to get power creeped so bad.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Oda Report (Sep 1, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Shanks was on Kaido's top 5, alongside other Great Pirates who could hang with him. *Kaido himself says no one could take him down except Joyboy, then we see Joyboy being needed to take him down.*



Dude that's called hyperbole,
Kaidou on introduction was beaten and captured multiple times, Kaidou isn't stronger then Rogers or Newagte.

Oda stated if "Red Dog was main character he would have found the one piece already" means beating Kaidou, Red dog isn't joy boy.

Also Oden wasn't Joyboy and he almost body bagged kaidou.

Hyperbole is what villains do, kaidou isnt the end all be all. 



AnimePhanatic said:


> How is Kaido below Shanks when Kaido went with just King to the war and Shanks AND his crew stopped him?



I don't see Shanks and his crew on Kaidous Pirate Rushmore, all there is are Pirates who would box kaidou.



AnimePhanatic said:


> 1v1, bet on Kaido, on land, sea and air, Kaido is strongest.



That's the rumor, seeing how he couldn't beat Big Mom.



AnimePhanatic said:


> The World's Strongest Creature
> Needed Joyboy to take him down
> Shanks went near Wano ONLY when Kaido was gone, why didn't he pull up on Wano when Kaido was there?



Shanks is going to be fighting Luffy the guy who put kaidou in the ground. . .so those are all moot points.



AnimePhanatic said:


> Got mad at Greenbull for oppressing the New Gen and Oden's child(ren), why didn't he pull up to Wano and challenge Kaido?



Shanks got mad because the marines where going to attack while the Next gen was recovering after a war with 2 Yonkou.



AnimePhanatic said:


> Here's why, cause Kaido is stronger than Shanks.
> 
> I dunno how this devolved from Black Blades and Garp to Kaido and Shanks, lol



One piece on break tends to do these things to the readers. Lol


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## ShWanks (Sep 1, 2022)

Oda Report said:


> Dude that's called hyperbole,
> Kaidou on introduction was beaten and captured multiple times, Kaidou isn't stronger then Rogers or Newagte.
> 
> Oda stated if "Red Dog was main character he would have found the one piece already" means beating Kaidou, Red dog isn't joy boy.
> ...


It's no hyberbole when we literally see no one took Kaido down nor even attempted to challenge him for over 20 years & only Joyboy could like he & Oden predicted. Kaido was terrorizing the Pirate World. He went after WB, fought RHP with only King, said to be the only Yonko to have gain his reputation on majority strength alone etc. His combat prowess is always the focus of his hype.

Just cuz you don't like it, it's a fact no one but Joyboy could took Kaido out like he & Oden said. He said there were five that could FIGHT him not defeat him.


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## AnimePhanatic (Sep 1, 2022)

Again, I dunno how it devolved to a Kaido debate but I'll humor you



Oda Report said:


> Dude that's called hyperbole,
> Kaidou on introduction was beaten and captured multiple times, Kaidou isn't stronger then Rogers or Newagte.


Was Roger and Whitebeard alive when Kaido said what he said? He said no one alive can take him down, this includes Shanks. An argument could even be made for Kaido being on Primebeard and Roger level, with Oden acting as the common ground, but I'm not going there.
Kaido's introduction is he was beaten multiple times, captured, yet he only has one scar. His introduction was about his great strength and how he was so unkillable. We don't even know WHEN these things happened, but in the backstory, we got him being captured by Marines INTENTIONALLY so he can eat. I mean... You're just making assumptions.


Oda Report said:


> Oda stated if "Red Dog was main character he would have found the one piece already" mean beating Kaidou, red dog isn't joy boy.


Yet, in the manga which Luffy is the MC of, Kaido > Akainu. It is what it is. 
If Akainu were the MC, alongside his top tier powers, he'd have MC plot armor on his side. And I'm pretty sure Oda said "One Piece would end in one year", cause he can't draw an edgelord character all the time.


Oda Report said:


> Also Oden wasn't Joyboy and he almost body bagged kaidou.
> 
> Hyperbole is what villains do.


Yeahhhhhhhhh, suuuuuuuuuuure. Oden almost body bagged a Kaido that didn't even use Drunken Modes, Hybrid, got taken out by a mere Bagua. Oden would've lost that fight, you're on something if you think Kaido was losing.

This wasn't hyperbole when Oda directly uses Kaido as the character to introduce Joyboy, the god-tier.


Oda Report said:


> I don't see Shanks and his crew on Kaidous Pirate Rushmore, all there is are


Fujitora didn't simp over Luffy and his crew, did he?
Do you seriously think Shanks ALONE stopped Kaido + King? Shanks who always pulls up everywhere with his crew y'know. If you believe Shanks could stall Kaido and make him back off, fine. But thinking Shanks alone made Kaido back off is...


Oda Report said:


> That's the rumor, seeing how he couldn't beat Big Mom.


Nice of you to point that out.
WB being WSM is also a rumor, seeing as he never beat Roger, and there was Garp who was having constant back-and-forth near-kills with Roger, who he couldn't beat.
Not to mention Mihawk, who never canonically defeated Shanks, yet is called the WSS. They haven't even fought in more than a decade and the people believe that Mihawk is stronger, when there was no winner back then.
You see? All titles are rumors. 


Oda Report said:


> Shanks is going to be fighting Luffy the guy who put kaidou in the ground. . .so those are all moot points.


Hordy fought Luffy after Enel. Hordy > Enel, right? If not, your analogy is moot


Oda Report said:


> Shanks got mad because the marines where going to attack while the Next gen was recovering after a war with 2 Yonkou.


Why didn't Shanks get mad at Kaido for enslaving an entire nation which included the children of a former member of his crew? Why the hypocrital anger against GB?
Here's a hint.
Maybe, like GB said, Kaido's presence kept enemies away from Wano.
BM is THE odd one out

Reactions: Winner 1


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## ShWanks (Sep 1, 2022)

BM got no chill...


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## AnimePhanatic (Sep 1, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> BM got no chill...


Agreed
She probably pulled up to Wano with this "I carried you for 9 months" mindset too, considering she kept talking about how Kaido owed her a debt

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Oda Report (Sep 1, 2022)

ShWanks said:


> It's no hyberbole when we literally see no one took Kaido down nor even attempted to challenge him for over 20 years & only Joyboy could like he & Oden predicted.



Kaidous introduction had him beaten and captured. Oden man handled him and Kaidou had aid. Hyperbole. 

His own top 5 is pirates that are greater then him. Again hyperbole is a thing, happens all the time.




ShWanks said:


> Kaido was terrorizing the Pirate World. He went after WB, fought RHP with only King, said to be the only Yonko to have gain his reputation on majority strength alone etc. His combat prowess is always the focus of his hype.



Is that why shanks is in Kaidous own top 5, I didn't see shanks crew either. 

Is that why Newagte was label the world's strongest pirate? Is that why Newagte was the ruler of the sea stated by Garp? 

Closet to the One Piece even tho he didn't care for it? 

Is that why Kaidou couldnt put down big mom? 

Hyperbole. 


ShWanks said:


> Just cuz you don't like it, it's a fact no one but Joyboy could took Kaido out like he & Oden said. He said there were five that could FIGHT him not defeat him.



Lmao  you are eating that hyperbole up my man.


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## Oda Report (Sep 1, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Again, I dunno how it devolved to a Kaido debate but I'll humor you



Because readers think Kaidou is the end all be all of strength when that is far from the truth.. . . .so far plus it's a break weak.



AnimePhanatic said:


> Was Roger and Whitebeard alive when Kaido said what he said?



Still had Shanks by rocks, Rogers, Newagte and Oden who almost ended kaidou.



AnimePhanatic said:


> He said no one alive can take him down, this includes Shanks.



It doesn't when shanks IS included in Kaidous top 5 dead or alive. Hyperbole is a thing.



AnimePhanatic said:


> An argument could even be made for Kaido being on Primebeard and Roger level, with Oden acting as the common ground, *but I'm not going there.*



Thanks.



AnimePhanatic said:


> Kaido's introduction is he was beaten multiple times, captured, yet he only has one scar. His introduction was about his great strength and how he was so unkillable. We don't even know WHEN these things happened, but in the backstory, we got him being captured by Marines INTENTIONALLY so he can eat. I mean... You're just making assumptions.



??????



AnimePhanatic said:


> Yet, in the manga which Luffy is the MC of, Kaido > Akainu. It is what it is.



Nope because the stakes will keep raising that's Story telling 101, meaning more stronger foes to come and that is a statement from Oda about Red Dog which gives us insight to Red Dogs battle power.

What did Big Mom and Kaidou die to? Magma



AnimePhanatic said:


> If Akainu were the MC, alongside his top tier powers, he'd have MC plot armor on his side. And I'm pretty sure Oda said "One Piece would end in one year", cause he can't draw an edgelord character all the time.



Dude is just that beast.



AnimePhanatic said:


> Yeahhhhhhhhh, suuuuuuuuuuure. Oden almost body bagged a Kaido that didn't even use Drunken Modes, Hybrid, got taken out by a mere Bagua. Oden would've lost that fight, you're on something if you think Kaido was losing.



It was Kaidou who had aid not Oden, it's kaidou whom had PTSD all these years still speaking of Oden.



AnimePhanatic said:


> This wasn't hyperbole when Oda directly uses Kaido as the character to introduce Joyboy, the god-tier.



And that's when Shanks decided to see Luffy....if you really think Luffy is going to be washing Shanks, Red Dog and Teach just because he beat an entry level Yonkou.

You need to read more shonen.



AnimePhanatic said:


> Do you seriously think Shanks ALONE stopped Kaido + King? Shanks who always pulls up everywhere with his crew y'know. If you believe Shanks could stall Kaido and make him back off, fine. But thinking Shanks alone made Kaido back off is...



Yet it's shanks alone on Kaidou top 5 dead or alive Pirate Rushmore, shanks crew is not included.



AnimePhanatic said:


> Nice of you to point that out.
> *WB being WSM is also a rumor*, seeing as he never beat Roger, and there was Garp who was having constant back-and-forth near-kills with Roger, who he couldn't beat.



No it isn't it's stated for you flat out by Oda himself, when Newagte was 1st introduce, buggy even tells us and then Sengoku during the war.

Garp an equal of Rogers even calls Newagte ruler of the Sea while visiting Ace in impel down. Whitebeard was stated to be the strongest pirate as well.



AnimePhanatic said:


> Not to mention Mihawk, who never canonically defeated Shanks, yet is called the WSS. They haven't even fought in more than a decade and the people believe that Mihawk is stronger, when there was no winner back then.
> You see? All titles are rumors.



It's stated in the data books on how Mihawk got the title by defeating ever strong foes until there was no more left. Oda stated for us like Whitebeard that Mihawk when introduced is the WSS. It was reenforced in the current chapter. Mihawk is waiting on a swordsman stronger then Shanks, but let's keep this on Kaidou.



AnimePhanatic said:


> Hordy fought Luffy after Enel. Hordy > Enel, right? If not, your analogy is moot.



I can bring up countless foes who are above Enel after his time to shine....I don't think I need to, not to mention Luffy said it best there are stronger foes on the seas or something to that nature. Been a while since I read skypea arc.



AnimePhanatic said:


> Why didn't Shanks get mad at Kaido for enslaving an entire nation which included the children of a former member of his crew? Why the hypocrital anger against GB?



Because GB is attacking the one he bet the New era on, while Luffy is recovering from a victory over the
the entry level Yonkou in Kaidou and Big Mom.

Remember

Shanks was in green bulls position during the Marine Ford War and decided to end it instead of take the easy pickings approach while everyone is weakend.



AnimePhanatic said:


> Here's a hint.
> Maybe, like GB said, Kaido's presence kept enemies away from Wano.
> BM is THE odd one out



Ace showed up, and Whitebeard show up to wano and fold kaidou because of Odas bad writing. as you mention Big Mom.

Iirc Yellow Monkey had no issue wanting to go to wano as well, it wasn't kaidou that stopped him either 

Kaidou isn't the end all be all, the stakes will keep raising especially in the final saga.


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## Quipchaque (Sep 2, 2022)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Does Shanks blasting out Haki make him stronger than Kaido?



Yes. Shanks is in fact above Kaido.


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## GreenEggsAHam (Sep 2, 2022)

Luffy blasted haki more than shanks.

Reactions: Like 1


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