# Dressrosa Zoro vs Doflamingo



## YonkoDrippy (Apr 10, 2021)

Who wins?


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## Eustathios (Apr 10, 2021)

There's no reason to assume Zoro got massive power ups after the time skip, except Enma. Shusui was a legendary sword on its own right and a black blade at that, but I'll say high diff to account for Enma's boost.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## YonkoDrippy (Apr 10, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> There's no reason to assume Zoro got massive power ups after the time skip, except Enma. On the other hand Shusui was a legendary sword on its own right, but I'll say high diff to account for Enma's boost.


But Zoro can’t do shit against awakening. Even G4 Luffy got tagged by it


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## Eustathios (Apr 10, 2021)

YonkoDrippy said:


> But Zoro can’t do shit against awakening. Even G4 Luffy got tagged by it


Zoro is much faster. He also has ranged slices. If push comes to shove he can simply bust out Asura and cut him in half. If it scarred Kaido and left him shocked at Zoro's strength, it would mess Doffy up worse than Gamma Knife.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## YonkoDrippy (Apr 10, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Zoro is much faster.


Um no? Doffy kept up with G4 Luffy at some points and landed hits on him. Proof Dressrosa Zoro can do this?


Eustathios said:


> He also has ranged slices.


So does Doffy


Eustathios said:


> If push comes to shove he can simply bust out Asura and cut him in half.


Proof he can do this?


Eustathios said:


> If it scarred Kaido and left him shocked at Zoro's strength, it would mess Doffy up worse than Gamma Knife.


He did that after getting enma and training on Wano. Wano Zoro is very different from dressrosa Zoro. Zoro’s attacks aren’t as hax as Gamma Knife. So I doubt that

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xenos5 (Apr 10, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Zoro is much faster. He also has ranged slices. If push comes to shove he can simply bust out Asura and cut him in half. If it scarred Kaido and left him shocked at Zoro's strength, it would mess Doffy up worse than Gamma Knife.


And how do you know Pre-Enma Ashura would do anything to Kaido? The Aura around the sword from Enma pulling out amounts of Haki Zoro couldn’t even come close to pulling out on his own was something Kaido noted multiple times. Dressrosa Zoro’s Haki is simply incomparable to Enma Zoro’s Haki.


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## Marik Swift (Apr 10, 2021)

YonkoDrippy said:


> But Zoro can’t do shit against awakening. Even G4 Luffy got tagged by it


Enma only gave Zoro more attack power.

He always had the stats. If he can react to and (briefly) blitz Kaido, then he has no problem dealing with Doffy's attacks.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Eustathios (Apr 10, 2021)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Um no? Doffy kept up with G4 Luffy at some points and landed hits on him. Proof Dressrosa Zoro can do this?


Dresrossa G4 Luffy was ragdolling Doffy and it was fodder material to the Yonko. Zoro is keeping up with the later. 


YonkoDrippy said:


> So does Doffy


Won't help him against Zoro's endurance. 


YonkoDrippy said:


> Proof he can do this?


It's in his moveset? Has always been since EL?


YonkoDrippy said:


> He did that after getting enma and training on Wano. Wano Zoro is very different from dressrosa Zoro. Zoro’s attacks aren’t as hax as Gamma Knife. So I doubt that


Nothing suggest his speed grew from 1 week of training with Enma. And Doflamingo is no Kaido. Even if we assume Enma is 2x as strong as Shusui, that would be more than enough to give Doffy severe injuries.

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## TheRealSJ (Apr 10, 2021)

I think people are forgetting Luffy needed help to defeat doflamingo. Zoro alone is not doing what Luffy + law couldn't do. Having good observation haki is key when fighting someone like doflamingo and DR Zoro's lack of it did not impress me. Also lol at @Eustathios saying DR Zoro was faster than G4. His lack of CoO and mobility will put him in a poor situation should doffy need to bust out awakening.

Doffy mid diffs him. He will fare no better than Luffy or law individually. I thought it was obvious why zoros fight was with pica and Luffy/Laws with Doflamingo.

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## Eustathios (Apr 10, 2021)

xenos5 said:


> And how do you know Pre-Enma Ashura would do anything to Kaido? The Aura around the sword from Enma pulling out amounts of Haki Zoro couldn’t even come close to pulling out on his own was something Kaido noted multiple times. Dressrosa Zoro’s Haki is simply incomparable to Enma Zoro’s Haki.


Haki or not, his stats still stand. He is keeping up and attacking someone like Kaido. Doffy's durability is nowhere near Kaido's. Shusui or not, we can safely assume that an Asura attack would leave serious wounds.

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## Eustathios (Apr 10, 2021)

TheRealSJ said:


> Also lol at @Eustathios saying DR Zoro was faster than G4. His lack of CoO and mobility will put him in a poor situation should doffy need to bust out awakening.


I said Dressrosa G4. A stronger version of G4 was matched by Cracker an arc later. An even stronger one that had FS was fodderized by Kaido. Nothing suggests Zoro's stats improved immensely post TS. Zoro being above Dressrosa G4 is not far fetched at all. He's keeping up with the Yonko.

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## xenos5 (Apr 10, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Haki or not, his stats still stand. He is keeping up and attacking someone like Kaido. Doffy's durability is nowhere near Kaido's. Shusui or not, we can safely assume that an Asura attack would leave serious wounds.


Actually, nah. Unlike other swords Zoro had to go through training to help him withstand the physical toll Enma took on his body by drawing out so much Haki. So it would be reasonable for him to got a physical boost as well from that training. Especially considering Luffy seems to have gotten a big physical boost just from training his Haki. It is undeniable Current Base Luffy > Pre Udon G4 Luffy now. Something that was hard to conceive of earlier.


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## Marik Swift (Apr 10, 2021)

TheRealSJ said:


> I think people are forgetting Luffy needed help to defeat doflamingo. Zoro alone is not doing what Luffy + law couldn't do. Having good observation haki is key when fighting someone like doflamingo and DR Zoro's lack of it did not impress me. Also lol at @Eustathios saying DR Zoro was faster than G4. His lack of CoO and mobility will put him in a poor situation should doffy need to bust out awakening.
> 
> Doffy mid diffs him. He will fare no better than Luffy or law individually. I thought it was obvious why zoros fight was with pica and Luffy/Laws with Doflamingo.


I'm a hardcore DD wanker who to this day stand by my belief that Doffy can push Katakuri to high or even extreme diff (I say that to let you know how much I hype him)

But sorry, no, even I will admit that Doffy and even Katakuri's feats are pretty much a joke in comparison to current feats. Without Law's help, Luffy definitely would have lost to DD cause people seriously underestimate how much Gamma Knife fvcked him up. But yea, current G4 Luffy can put DD down with only a few hits by feats and Zoro isn't too far behind Luffy right now.

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## YonkoDrippy (Apr 10, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Dresrossa G4 Luffy was ragdolling Doffy and it was fodder material to the Yonko.



Doffy kept up with G4 Luffy and tagged him at some points. Prove Dressrosa Zoro is fast enough to do this. When he struggled to reach Pica


Eustathios said:


> Zoro is keeping up with the later.


No proof of this. And don’t bring up Kaido. Wano Zoro is different from Dressrosa Zoro


Eustathios said:


> Won't help him against Zoro's endurance.


Zoro can’t even reach Doffy once he busts out awakening. He will be overwhelmed and attacked from all angles


Eustathios said:


> It's in his moveset? Has always been since EL?


Obviously. But proof he can tag Doffy with it?


Eustathios said:


> Nothing suggest his speed grew from 1 week of training with Enma.


Luffy’s speed grew significantly from 1 fight with Katakuri which lasted way less than a week. Luffy and Zoro have similar growth rates. Struggling to find Pica and then Keeping up with Kaido suggests a massive speed difference 


Eustathios said:


> And Doflamingo is no Kaido. Even if we assume Enma is 2x as strong as Shusui, that would be more than enough to give Doffy severe injuries.


The thing is Zoro has no speed feats that suggests he can dodge awakening and tag Doffy. Unless you can prove that (which you can’t) Doffy takes this.

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## TheRealSJ (Apr 10, 2021)

Marik Swift said:


> I'm a hardcore DD wanker who to this day stand by my belief that Doffy can push Katakuri to high or even extreme diff (I say that to let you know how much I hype him)
> 
> But sorry, no, even I will admit that Doffy and even Katakuri's feats are pretty much a joke in comparison to current feats. Without Law's help, Luffy definitely would have lost to DD cause people seriously underestimate how much Gamma Knife fvcked him up. But yea, current G4 Luffy can put DD down with only a few hits by feats and Zoro isn't too far behind Luffy right now.


This is DR Zoro Vs Doflamingo. Current version are irrelevant. Also it makes no sense to the people saying Zoro was as strong as he is now when he came out the time skip, because that would mean Zoro was massively stronger than Luffy when they came out the timeskip

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheRealSJ (Apr 10, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> I said Dressrosa G4. A stronger version of G4 was matched by Cracker an arc later. An even stronger one that had FS was fodderized by Kaido. Nothing suggests Zoro's stats improved immensely post TS. Zoro being above Dressrosa G4 is not far fetched at all. He's keeping up with the Yonko.


They must have or else you are saying ts Zoro stats>ts Luffy stats which makes no sense whatsoever.


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## Mihawk (Apr 10, 2021)

Dressrosa Zoro could not beat Doflamingo, unless you think he was already much stronger than DR Luffy. He also struggled against a casual Fujitora. Doflamingo wasn't getting punked by G4 Luffy; he was tanking hits and multiple high-end attacks from him, kept up with him, and ate a significant amount of damage to Law and Luffy already, prior to G4. 

Doflamingo wins high-diff.

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## RayanOO (Apr 10, 2021)

Zoro will lose in a hard fight


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## Marik Swift (Apr 10, 2021)

TheRealSJ said:


> This is DR Zoro Vs Doflamingo. Current version are irrelevant. Also it makes no sense to the people saying Zoro was as strong as he is now when he came out the time skip, because that would mean Zoro was massively stronger than Luffy when they came out the timeskip


Only thing separating DR Zoro from current Zoro is Enma, which is only an attack boost.

The only argument anybody ever has against this fact is "Zoro scales to Luffy", but the reality is that that's just "shounen logic", not an argument. In the battledore, we argue with feats, not "shounen logic".

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## RayanOO (Apr 10, 2021)

Since DR : Zoro had a boost from the week spending in Wano fighting as a ronin and eating poisoned fish/water + fighting Kamazou +  clashing with Kyoshiro + beating the onibawanshu + Enma week training + lots of minor clash during the Onigashima fest (like cutting Apoo) +  boost and better Enma mastery during the rooftop fight.

So yeah current Zoro is quite stronger than DR Zoro.


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## Empathy (Apr 10, 2021)

Doflamingo had Luffy and Law beaten together and it took the whole island distracting him before Luffy was able to recover enough to finally win. Doflamingo wins, I don’t think Zoro was stronger than Law until got Enma, and he’s definitely not stronger than Luffy. Zoro getting Enma is comparable boost to Sanji getting his raid suit  IMO.

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## Marik Swift (Apr 10, 2021)

RayanOO said:


> Since DR : Zoro had a boost from the week spending in Wano fighting as a ronin and eating poisoned fish/water + fighting Kamazou +  clashing with Kyoshiro + beating the onibawanshu + Enma week training + lots of minor clash during the Onigashima fest (like cutting Apoo) +  boost and better Enma mastery during the rooftop fight.
> 
> So yeah current Zoro is quite stronger than DR Zoro.


None of those were major battles.

Even if we say each of those gave Zoro a +1, all of Luffy's battle gave him at least a +10 (plus several mini skirmishes like Zoro has had), yet he has been performing better than Luffy pre-Udon.

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## TheRealSJ (Apr 10, 2021)

Marik Swift said:


> Only thing separating DR Zoro from current Zoro is Enma, which is only an attack boost.
> 
> The only argument anybody ever has against this is "Zoro scales to Luffy", but the reality is that that's not an argument. In the battledore, we argue with feats, not "shounen logic".


Bullshit. I'm pretty sure Oda stated the straw hats get stronger after every island on some SBS, and that makes alot of sense too. And ofc Zoro stats have increased he went from being ko'ed by a sword wound from killer to enduring an attack from 2 emperor's in the same arc.


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## Marik Swift (Apr 10, 2021)

TheRealSJ said:


> Bullshit. I'm pretty sure Oda stated the straw hats get stronger after every island on some SBS. And ofc Zoro stats have increased he went from being ko'ed by a sword wound from killer to enduring an attack from 2 emperor's in the same arc.


They get stronger cause they fight at every island. The harder the fight, the more they increase, and only Luffy has been pushed to his limit since the time-skip. So whatever little increases Zoro has gotten definitely wouldn't be enough to push him to the level he is now unless he wasn't too far below it already.

Killer didn't KO Zoro, he was poisoned.

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## Marik Swift (Apr 10, 2021)

Zoro's biggest challenge overall is only Doflamingo's endurance as without Enma Zoro's attack power drops a whole tier.

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## YonkoDrippy (Apr 10, 2021)

Marik Swift said:


> Zoro's biggest challenge overall is only Doflamingo's endurance as without Enma Zoro's attack power drops a whole tier.


Actually, his biggest challenge is Doflamingo’s speed, endurance, awakening and mobility. He will struggle badly trying to hit Doffy in the air. And since Doffy was able to take multiple G4 attacks from Luffy, Zoro won’t be able to put him down

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## Chronophage (Apr 10, 2021)

Nothing happened that justifies any growth for Zoro during the last 500+ chapters. He's always been this strong since Mihawk's bootcamp.

Hyouzou? Joke.
Pica? Hide and seek + One-shot.
Clashing with Fuji for 3 seconds?
Gyukimari? Kamazo? Yeah, no.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## hbcaptain (Apr 10, 2021)

Luffy would've lost extreme diff if he was alone which implies that Zoro would've lost as well.


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## Draco Bolton (Apr 10, 2021)

Doffy high diff thanks his mobility, his ability to "fly.

Even without Enma Zoro has the strength to defeat him (with Enma, imo he can one shot if he use a very serious attack and manage to hit Doffy) but it will be difficult to hit him every time. Also not sure if he DR Zoro can really cut the threads or pass the spider web defense.

And he could be overwhelmed by awakening, parasite, long distance slashing threads attacks (the one used by Doffy to kill Sanji who sliced a DR tower in the distance). At some point Doffy should win.

But Zoro remains extremely tough so it will be long and difficult to put him down (and Doffy must not make a mistake or he will be seriously injured very quickly). So high diff win.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## A Optimistic (Apr 10, 2021)

Zoro wins. Oda didn’t hesitate to show Doflamingo kick Sanji and Kinemon’s ass, but instead of showing Doflamingo kicking Zoro’s ass, he has an Admiral jump between them.

Fujitora was a plot device to keep Zoro and Sabo away from Doflamingo.

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## Marik Swift (Apr 10, 2021)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Actually, his biggest challenge is Doflamingo’s speed, endurance, awakening and mobility. He will struggle badly trying to hit Doffy in the air. And since Doffy was able to take multiple G4 attacks from Luffy, Zoro won’t be able to put him down


Speed isn't an issue. Doffy couldn't keep up with G4 (although I honestly belief he could have if he hadn't been Gamma Knife'd before), and G4's speed is no problem for Kaido, while Zoro has shown he can keep up with Kaido, thua he can also keep up with G4.

Awakening is just more strings, which Zoro has no problem reacting to and deflecting (it's not like Katakuri's awakening which can suffocating him).

Mobility is definitely a bit of an issue. DD definitely can outlast him by keeping his distance, so I will admit he would probably beat him if he goes for this strategy. But if he gets close at all, then Zoro is definitely blitzing him every single time.

Sword attacks > Blunt attacks. Zoro will definitely struggle to put him down since he doesn't have G4 level attacks without Enma, but he can definitely do it eventually since Zoro is an endurance freak himself.

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## YonkoDrippy (Apr 10, 2021)

Marik Swift said:


> Speed isn't an issue. Doffy couldn't keep up with G4



yea he totally couldn’t keep up


Marik Swift said:


> (although I honestly belief he could have if he hadn't been Gamma Knife'd before), and G4's speed is no problem for Kaido, while Zoro has shown he can keep up with Kaido, thua he can also keep up with G4.


Again, You can’t compare DR Zoro to Wano Zoro. They are literally 3 arcs apart. And Zoro got multiple power ups and fights between them


Marik Swift said:


> Awakening is just more strings, which Zoro has no problem reacting to and deflecting (it's not Katakuri's awakening which can suffocating him).


Proof he can react to it when G4 Luffy got tagged by awakening?


Marik Swift said:


> Mobility is not an issue when Zoro has several ranged attacks.


That won’t hit Doffy due to his speed


Marik Swift said:


> He definitely can outlast him by keeping his distance, but that's his only option in beating him.


Or overwhelming him with awakening


Marik Swift said:


> Sword attacks > Blunt attacks. Zoro will definitely struggle to put him down since he doesn't have G4 level attack without Enma, but he can definitely do it eventually since Zoro is an endurance freak himself.


If he doesn’t have G4 lvl attack then wtf is he supposed to do to Doffy? He has no hax like Law does either. Zoro loses here


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## Marik Swift (Apr 10, 2021)

YonkoDrippy said:


> yea he totally couldn’t keep up


Exactly. And DR Zoro, which isn't much weaker than current Zoro except in AP, is above DR G4.



> Again, You can’t compare DR Zoro to Wank Zoro. They are literally 3 arcs apart. And Zoro got multiple power ups and fights between them





I'm seriously tired of repeating this to you guys at this point, so just going to quote myself:


Marik Swift said:


> Where is the "Oda is a hack option"?
> 
> Seriously, I made the very first thread on this whole debate last week, and the fact of the matter is that there's no denying the fact that Oda has written the SHs so bad over the skip that by feats Zoro was a lot stronger than Luffy at the start of the skip.
> 
> ...


Fact of the matter is that Zoro hasn't had even a third of the opportunities Luffy has had to get stronger, yet is currently stronger than Pre-Udon Luffy, thus he was always at that level as all Enma gave him was an attack boost.




> Proof he can react to it when G4 Luffy got tagged by awakening?


See above. DR Zoro was massively above DR Luffy.



> That won’t hit Doffy due to his speed
> 
> Or overwhelming him with awakening


I already conceded that DD can beat him if he keeps his distance.



> If he doesn’t have G4 lvl attack then wtf is he supposed to do to Doffy? He has no hax like Law does either. Zoro loses here


Last I checked cumulative damage was a thing, and even without Enma DR Zoro's attack power is still scaled higher than DR Luffy's non G4 attacks.

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## YonkoDrippy (Apr 10, 2021)

Marik Swift said:


> Exactly. And DR Zoro, which isn't much weaker than current Zoro except in AP, is above DR G4.


You have nothing to prove this. So this is just head canon


Marik Swift said:


> I'm seriously tired of repeating this to you guys at this point, so just going to quote myself:
> 
> Fact of the matter is that Zoro hasn't had even a third of the opportunities Luffy has had to get stronger, yet is currently stronger than Pre-Udon Luffy, thus he was always at that level as all Enma gave him was an attack boost.


“ Facts and feats” ?

What feats put DR Zoro above Luffy? Imagine actually thinking DR Zoro was above G4 Luffy when the story itself literally portrays Luffy as the stronger of the 2. G2/G3 Luffy and Law couldn’t beat Doffy. Yet you think Zoro can? 


Marik Swift said:


> See above. DR Zoro was massively above DR Luffy.



Just stop, you’re embarrassing yourself.


Marik Swift said:


> I already conceded that DD can beat him if he keeps his distance.


You have no proof or feats of DR Zoro being able to keep up with Doffy. Just head canon.


Marik Swift said:


> Last I checked cumulative damage was a thing, and even without Enma DR Zoro's attack power is still scaled higher than DR Luffy's non G4 attacks.


No proof of this either. Lol is headcanon you’re only argument? DR Zoro can’t keep up with Doffy. And you can’t compare Wano Zoro’s feats to DR Zoro. He got multiple power ups and fights since then. Unless you have feats that prove that DR Zoro is just as fast as Wano Zoro (Which you don’t), then Doffy takes this

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## Marik Swift (Apr 10, 2021)

YonkoDrippy said:


> You have nothing to prove this. So this is just head canon
> 
> “ Facts and feats” ?
> 
> ...


Why are you in the battledome? 

This is a serious question.

Come here with headcanon and shounen logic and don't even know what feats are. And I'm the embarrassment. 

You realized your argument was shit and then started resorting to emojis as if it somehow helps.   

You literally just quoted "feats" in the battledome as something asinine. 

Go back to the little leagues little buddy. I'll be waiting for you when you actually have an argument.

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## YonkoDrippy (Apr 10, 2021)

Marik Swift said:


> Why are you in the battledome?
> 
> This is a serious question.
> 
> ...


Looks like you can’t prove any of my points are wrong. Concession accepted

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## Marik Swift (Apr 10, 2021)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Looks like you can’t prove any of my points are wrong. Concession accepted


I'm not the one who started using laughing emojis instead of giving a counter argument.


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## YonkoDrippy (Apr 10, 2021)

Marik Swift said:


> I'm not the one who started using laughing emojis instead of giving a counter argument.


You’re the one who needs to give a counter argument. You have no “facts and feats” that prove “DR Zoro is massively above Luffy”

imagine actually thinking that


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## Marik Swift (Apr 10, 2021)

YonkoDrippy said:


> You’re the one who needs to give a counter argument. You have no facts or feats that prove “DR Zoro is massively above Luffy”
> 
> imagine actually thinking that


I showed you proof, and yiur argument was that "Zoro had multiple fights since then", which I already countered long before as all being a bunch of low diff fights & skirmishes, while Luffy has had 2 extreme dif fights, got future sight, 1 high dif fight, KO'd by Kaido & Udon training.

There experiences have been miles apart, yet Zoro isn't far behind him currently, meaning he was already at his current level back in DR.

What's your argument? Lemme guess, your dumbass is going to say, "Zoro scales to Luffy". 

Your reading comprehension is shit, you should get that checked out.

Reactions: Like 2


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## YonkoDrippy (Apr 10, 2021)

Marik Swift said:


> I showed you proof, and yiur argument was that "Zoro had multiple fights since then", which I already countered long before as all being a bunch of low diff fights & skirmishes, while Luffy has had 2 extreme dif fights, got future sight, 1 high dif fight, KO'd by Kaido & Udon training.


Just cause he low diffed his opponents and Luffy extreme diffed his opponents doesn’t mean Zoro is stronger. What kind of Logic is this?


Marik Swift said:


> There experiences have been miles apart, yet Zoro isn't far behind him currently, meaning he was already at his current level back in DR.


first you say he’s “Massively stronger” now he’s at his level? You sound dumb asf. You need feats to prove Zoro was at Luffy’s level. And you don’t have any feats just headcanon


Marik Swift said:


> Your reading comprehension is shit, you should get that checked out.


Coming from the guy who said DR Zoro is way stronger than G4 Luffy

powerscaling ain’t you’re thing kid.


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## Kroczilla (Apr 10, 2021)

Doffy low diffs if he uses parasite 

If he mid diffs without it.


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## LadyVados (Apr 10, 2021)

Zoro curbs

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## Kroczilla (Apr 10, 2021)

Looking at the polls...

Lots of people legit think that Dressrosa Zoro can beat Doffy?

When a stronger version couldn't get past Denjiro?



Really?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## LadyVados (Apr 10, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Looking at the polls...
> 
> Lots of people legit think that Dressrosa Zoro can beat Doffy?
> 
> ...


1. An argument can easily be made for Denjiro > Doffy
2. How is Zoro stronger there ? He got no amps, in fact he got nerfs. He's probably weaker than he was in Dressrosa.

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## Kroczilla (Apr 10, 2021)

LadyVados said:


> 1. An argument can easily be made for Denjiro > Doffy
> 2. How is Zoro stronger there ? He got no amps, in fact he got nerfs. He's probably weaker than he was in Dressrosa.


1. Then make the argument why don't you?
2. SHs per WOG get stronger from Island to Island as the story progresses. Also While Zoro was bloodlusted, Denjiro apart from not taking him seriously, hand no intention of hurting he or any member of the alliance.


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## Strobacaxi (Apr 10, 2021)

Hard to believe Zoro went from weaker than DD to temporarily blocking combined yonko attacks, overpowering Yonko attacks with his own,  just from getting a new sword and 1 week training to master it.

Edited to remove spoilers

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## Kroczilla (Apr 10, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Hard to believe Zoro wen't from weaker than DD to temporarily blocking combined yonko attacks, overpowering Yonko attacks with his own, and permanently scarring Kaido just from getting a new sword and 1 training to master it.


Hard to believe Luffy went from getting oneshot in G4 by base Kaido to smacking his hybrid form around in base, by hey, it's shounen. These things happen.

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## Marik Swift (Apr 10, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Hard to believe Luffy went from getting oneshot in G4 by base Kaido to smacking his hybrid form around in base, by hey, it's shounen. These things happen.


"it's shounen" isn't an argument in the battledome buddy.

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## Strobacaxi (Apr 10, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Hard to believe Luffy went from getting oneshot in G4 by base Kaido to smacking his hybrid form around in base, by hey, it's shounen. These things happen.


Luffy had 2 separate powerups to reach this new level and was trained by a master specifically to master CoA 3.0, Zoro got a new sword and trained to not let it take all his haki.

Also Luffy was not using FS which is why he was oneshotted.

Also Luffy went from YC1 to his current level, DD is very far from YC1.

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## Kroczilla (Apr 10, 2021)

Marik Swift said:


> "it's shounen" isn't an argument in the battledome buddy.


Well then how about actual feats. Like Denjiro treating a blood lusted Zoro with the levity of an bemused kid.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## YonkoDrippy (Apr 10, 2021)

Marik Swift said:


> The way you twist arguments is astounding.
> 
> Every fight = training dumbass.
> 
> ...


Dressrosa Zoro can’t beat Doffy or Luffy. And since you can’t prove that concession accepted

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Marik Swift (Apr 10, 2021)

I seriously miss VS debate tournaments.

Some of you wouldn't last a single round if you don't understand that all that matters in the battledome is feats.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kroczilla (Apr 10, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Luffy had 2 separate powerups to reach this new level and was trained by a master specifically to master CoA 3.0, Zoro got a new sword and trained to not let it take all his haki.
> 
> Also Luffy was not using FS which is why he was oneshotted.
> 
> Also Luffy went from YC1 to his current level, DD is very far from YC1.


Enma took zoro from being mid scabbard lvl at best to permanently scarring Kaido. Its clearly a massive powerup.

Also there is the case of Law who has had zero training but have clearly gotten significantly stronger than his Dressrosa counterpart. Training isn't necessarily a prerequisite for massive power ups. Law is an example of this. Heck Ennies Lobby is another perfect example of this.


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## Strobacaxi (Apr 10, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> zoro from being mid scabbard lvl



This guy is saying Zoro was Kinemon level before Enma guys

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## Kroczilla (Apr 10, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> This guy is saying Zoro was Kinemon level before Enma guys


Never knew you were a mind reader.

Denjiro = Mid scabbard lvl and he was arguably above Zoro pre Enma.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## LadyVados (Apr 10, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> 1. Then make the argument why don't you?
> 2. SHs per WOG get stronger from Island to Island as the story progresses. Also While Zoro was bloodlusted, Denjiro apart from not taking him seriously, hand no intention of hurting he or any member of the alliance.


1. Denjiro fought and wounded Kaido, he is one of the strongest, if not the strongest scabbard. He is likely above Asura Douji who defeated Jack and should be comparable to Sulong minks. He tanked a club bow from Kaido. After his beating at Kaido's hand he has already recovered. As a swordsman he can likely cut up Doffy's threads. Kinemon was mostly undamaged after tanking a cheap shot from Doffy. He almost certainly has more powerful CoA than Doffy.
2. That's unquantifiable. What we do know is Zoro was injured and missing a sword.

Reactions: Like 3


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## TheRealSJ (Apr 10, 2021)

Marik Swift said:


> DR Zoro was massively above DR Luffy.





Marik Swift said:


> even without Enma DR Zoro's attack power is still scaled higher than DR Luffy's non G4 attacks.





Marik Swift said:


> Why are you in the battledome?


Man you have no right to ask him that, how can you even honestly say DR Zoro >>>> DR G4 Luffy? I would be embarrassed after making such an absurd claim.

I suggest getting a good night sleep and taking another try at this thread in the morning.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Kroczilla (Apr 10, 2021)

LadyVados said:


> 1. Denjiro fought and wounded Kaido, he is one of the strongest, if not the strongest scabbard. He is likely above Asura Douji who defeated Jack and should be comparable to Sulong minks. He tanked a club bow from Kaido. After his beating at Kaido's hand he has already recovered. As a swordsman he can likely cut up Doffy's threads. Kinemon was mostly undamaged after tanking a cheap shot from Doffy. He almost certainly has more powerful CoA than Doffy.


Denjiro hurt Kaido whereas G4 Luffy couldn't. Denjiro just like Kineamon (whom doffy would curbstomp) knew the technique capable of hurting Kaido (Kaido stated multiple times that ordinarily they were too weak to hurt him and stated multiple times that they were using Oden's ryou).

How did Denjiro "tank" a club blow from Kaido? As what exactly makes him comparable to Denjiro?
Doffy's threads couldn't be cut by Law who sliced up a mountain range with room, but I am supposed to believe Denjiro can cut them?





LadyVados said:


> That's unquantifiable.


Which is irrelevant. All that matters is that that version of Zoro is stronger than Dressrosa Zoro and he couldn't bring Denjiro to take him seriously.


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## Mihawk (Apr 10, 2021)

Simply by feats

Yeti Cool Bros> Zoro

Reactions: Funny 2


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## LadyVados (Apr 10, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Denjiro hurt Kaido whereas G4 Luffy couldn't. Denjiro just like Kineamon (whom doffy would curbstomp) knew the technique capable of hurting Kaido (Kaido stated multiple times that ordinarily they were too weak to hurt him and stated multiple times that they were using Oden's ryou).
> 
> How did Denjiro "tank" a club blow from Kaido? As what exactly makes him comparable to Denjiro?
> Doffy's threads couldn't be cut by Law who sliced up a mountain range with room, but I am supposed to believe Denjiro can cut them?
> ...


Law only cut the mountain due to his hax. Doffy's strings have been cut by Kyros. Besides Zoro cut up Pica.

I think I might have misremembered Kaido clubbing Denjiro

And again I do not think a seriously nerfed Wano Zoro is stronger than a healthy 
*Spoiler*: _1010_ 



base 


Dressrosa Zoro 
*Spoiler*: _1010_ 



(let alone if he uses Asura)


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## Kroczilla (Apr 10, 2021)

LadyVados said:


> Law only cut the mountain due to his hax. Doffy's strings have been cut by Kyros. Besides Zoro cut up Pica


Yes, and even with said hax, he couldn't cut Doffy's string. Kyros caught doffy off guard. Doffy was about to casually end him had Luffy not interfered.


LadyVados said:


> And again I do not think a seriously nerfed Wano Zoro is stronger than a healthy base Dressrosa Zoro (let alone if he uses Asura)


How exactly was Zoro seriously nerfed?


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## LadyVados (Apr 10, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Yes, and even with said hax, he couldn't cut Doffy's string. Kyros caught doffy off guard. Doffy was about to casually end him had Luffy not interfered.
> 
> How exactly was Zoro seriously nerfed?


Zoro couldn't cut Doffy because his haki was greater than his so his hax didn't work.

Zoro was seriously injured and ill and missing a sword.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Apr 10, 2021)

LadyVados said:


> Zoro couldn't cut Doffy because his haki was greater than his so his hax didn't work.


I assume you mean Law in which case now you have a real problem, coz as at Dressrosa, Law > Zoro.


LadyVados said:


> Zoro was seriously injured and ill and missing a sword


He had been fixed up and he wasn't ill (seriously where is this coming from).

Also him missing a sword doesn't change the fact that he was bloodlusted while Denjiro was barely even trying.


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## LadyVados (Apr 10, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> I assume you mean Law in which case now you have a real problem, coz as at Dressrosa, Law > Zoro.
> 
> He had been fixed up and he wasn't ill (seriously where is this coming from).
> 
> Also him missing a sword doesn't change the fact that he was bloodlusted while Denjiro was barely even trying.


1. Yeah I meant Law. No evidence of this whatsoever. In fact I consider Pica > Vergo and Zoro had a significantly easier time with him than Law had with Vergo or even Trebol. At the very least if Law wins its due to hax, Zoro's haki is definitely inferior.

2. It's still a pretty big nerf. And Zoro hadn't recovered full from his injury and illness.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Strobacaxi (Apr 10, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Denjiro = Mid scabbard lvl and he was arguably above Zoro pre Enma.


Denjiro, one of the 3 specifically mentioned Scabbards to be uber strong, who was the leader of the Yakuza in Wano and portrayed as the strongest Samurai in Wano was mid Scabbard?

lol

He was not arguably above anyone lol he fought 2 katana Zoro for a little while and was pushed back.

What, if Zoro can't one shot his opponent then he's weaker than him? lol

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Yumi Zoro (Apr 10, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Looking at the polls...
> 
> *Lots of people legit think that Dressrosa Zoro can beat Doffy?*
> 
> ...



Maybe because they are not biased.

They have seen the Greatmaster's strength and acknowledge him as second only to Luffy.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Datassassin (Apr 10, 2021)

Wow. Twelve people, or 48% of the current voters, actually think DR Zoro would have won. Revisionism in the face of new portrayal and new feats *3 arcs later* is something.

Zoro dies likely without exceeding the challenge DR Law posed. Asura isn't G4; it's not dramatically boosting Zoro's speed and mobility (in fact it doesn't boost them at all), it doesn't boost Zoro's bodily defense, and is just a means for Zoro to wield much greater attack power. Nothing suggests an Asura from DR Zoro, lacking his new swordsmanship/haki skills/Enma, surpasses King Kong Gun in power either.

Even if the usage of Asura ~somehow~ allows DR Zoro to break Parasite, Awakening is cleanly finishing him [and Parasite could just be re-launched, but that's besides the point].

There are no feats and _definitely_ not any portrayal that suggests Zoro could step to DD in DR, and live.


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## LadyVados (Apr 10, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> Wow. Twelve people, or 48% of the current voters, actually think DR Zoro would have won. Revisionism in the face of new portrayal and new feats *3 arcs later* is something.
> 
> Zoro dies likely without exceeding the challenge DR Law posed. Asura isn't G4; it's not dramatically boosting Zoro's speed and mobility (in fact it doesn't boost them at all), it doesn't boost Zoro's bodily defense, and is just a means for Zoro to wield much greater attack power. Nothing suggests an Asura from DR Zoro, lacking his new swordsmanship/haki skills/Enma, surpasses King Kong Gun in power either.
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: _1010_ 



Asura Zoro literally blitzed Hybrid Kaido... who could blitz FS Luffy in his base form

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Datassassin (Apr 10, 2021)

LadyVados said:


> *Spoiler*: _1010_
> 
> 
> 
> Asura Zoro literally blitzed Hybrid Kaido... who could blitz FS Luffy in his base form


1) Luffy's extreme anger feasibly could have negatively effected his performance, especially given the emphasis Oda placed on future-sight requiring mental calm. 
2) You're using *current* feats and applying them to a prior version of Zoro from three arcs ago. Das absolute nonsense, comrade. We accept that young main characters in One Piece passively increase in power with the passage of time, and there has been a great deal of passage of time by OP standards. We also know Zoro has been working on his swordsmanship this whole time, given how he observed Kinemon's swordplay in Punk Hazard, tried it out, and mastered it by the time of the Kaido fight. He also had to revisit COA skills in operating Enma, which on its own provides a large boost to his attack power.


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## LadyVados (Apr 10, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> 1) Luffy's extreme anger feasibly could have negatively effected his performance, especially given the emphasis Oda placed on future-sight requiring mental calm.
> 2) You're using *current* feats and applying them to a prior version of Zoro from three arcs ago. Das absolute nonsense, comrade. We accept that young main characters in One Piece passively increase in power with the passage of time, and there has been a great deal of passage of time by OP standards. We also know Zoro has been working on his swordsmanship this whole time, given how he observed Kinemon's swordplay in Punk Hazard, tried it out, and mastered it by the time of the Kaido fight. He also had to revisit COA skills in operating Enma, which on its own provides a large boost to his attack power.


He could blitz even a calm Luffy like he did in 1001


*Spoiler*: __ 



I was just pointing out it made Zoro significantly faster, countering the point it doesn't increase speed


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## Datassassin (Apr 10, 2021)

LadyVados said:


> He could blitz even a calm Luffy like he did in 1001
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


You're doing work to ignore context. Kaido himself praised Luffy in 1001 for almost totally dodging his club, functionally getting grazed, while saying how Luffy won't be directly hit by the same thing twice _along with_ Luffy clarifying that _this_ time he was using future sight.

There's no actual evidence that the technique *in itself* "made Zoro faster" when that wasn't one of the traits pre-skip either.


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## Kroczilla (Apr 10, 2021)

LadyVados said:


> 1. Yeah I meant Law. No evidence of this whatsoever. In fact I consider Pica > Vergo and Zoro had a significantly easier time with him than Law had with Vergo or even Trebol. At the very least if Law wins its due to hax, Zoro's haki is definitely inferior.


The evidence is that Law had much better feats. How does Pica > Vergo? Vergo is the only one of the executives whom doffy called partner and by feats, was the most impressive of the lot. Also Vergo had Law's heart for most of their fight.

The fact that Law can beat zoro whether due to hax or not means Zoro isn't even a challenge for Doffy who on top of better physicals, has troublesome abilities of his own


LadyVados said:


> 2. It's still a pretty big nerf. And Zoro hadn't recovered full from his injury and illness


How is it a big nerf? And what proof do you have that zoro hadn't recovered.


Strobacaxi said:


> Denjiro, one of the 3 specifically mentioned Scabbards to be uber strong, who was the leader of the Yakuza in Wano and portrayed as the strongest Samurai in Wano was mid Scabbard?


Yes.

My rating goes:

Low Scabbards - Kineamon, Raizo, Kiki, Izou
Mid Scabbard - Denjiro, Doji, Kawamatsu
Top Scabbard - Sulong Dukes (can easily match mid Scabbards in their base form)

Not to mention, Zoro couldn't even make Denjiro (who wasn't trying to actually fight him) take him the least seriously.




Strobacaxi said:


> He was not arguably above anyone lol he fought 2 katana Zoro for a little while and was pushed back.


Denjiro was pushed back? When?

Also Zoro was the one trying his hardest to get past Denjiro and got completely lolnoped without the latter even trying.




Strobacaxi said:


> What, if Zoro can't one shot his opponent then he's weaker than him? lol


Prove that Zoro was stronger than a guy who was toying with him.


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## Kroczilla (Apr 10, 2021)

Mikasa said:


> They have seen the Greatmaster's strength





Mikasa said:


> Maybe because they are not biased.







You really don't see the irony, huh?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## LadyVados (Apr 10, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> The evidence is that Law had much better feats. How does Pica > Vergo? Vergo is the only one of the executives whom doffy called partner and by feats, was the most impressive of the lot. Also Vergo had Law's heart for most of their fight.
> 
> The fact that Law can beat zoro whether due to hax or not means Zoro isn't even a challenge for Doffy who on top of better physicals, has troublesome abilities of his own
> 
> ...


I have 2 reasons for Pica > Vergo

1. Spades outranks Hearts according to the rules of cards
2. Vergo's main gimick is his full body CoA. Pica has that AND an OP DF on top of that.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## LadyVados (Apr 10, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> You're doing work to ignore context. Kaido himself praised Luffy in 1001 for almost totally dodging his club, functionally getting grazed, while saying how Luffy won't be directly hit by the same thing twice _along with_ Luffy clarifying that _this_ time he was using future sight.
> 
> There's no actual evidence that the technique *in itself* "made Zoro faster" when that wasn't one of the traits pre-skip either.


I was just pointing out kaido is really really fast

What do you mean ? He blitzed Kaku Pre TS

Reactions: Like 2


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## Maruo (Apr 10, 2021)

Story logic trumps power progression logic here. If Zoro was stronger than Luffy and could defeat Doflamingo himself, he would have been fighting Doflamingo alongside everyone else. It makes no sense plot-wise for Zoro to have been that strong in Dressrosa. Outside of Enma, Zoro simply got stronger through training and the few fights he had since Dressrosa.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## LadyVados (Apr 10, 2021)

Let's continue this tomorrow


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## Yumi Zoro (Apr 10, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> You really don't see the irony, huh?



What irony? I am pretty sure even luffy is a Zoro fans.

And will can him equal if need although he is the captain.

Same way Roger can call Rayleigh equal although he is the captain.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Maruo (Apr 10, 2021)

Mikasa said:


> What irony? I am pretty sure even luffy is a Zoro fans.
> 
> And will can him equal if need although he is the captain.
> 
> Same way Roger can call Rayleigh equal although he is the captain.



The problem here is that Dressrosa Zoro has to be significantly stronger than Dressrosa Luffy to be stronger than Doflamingo. Being equal isn't going to cut it.


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## Yumi Zoro (Apr 10, 2021)

Maruo said:


> The problem here is that Dressrosa Zoro has to be significantly stronger than Dressrosa Luffy to be stronger than Doflamingo. Being equal isn't going to cut it.



Oda state Luffy was gonna beat Doffy even without help.

So I dont see the problem.

luffy≥Zoro>Doffy

Zoro beat Doffy.


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## Maruo (Apr 10, 2021)

Mikasa said:


> Oda state Luffy was gonna beat Doffy even without help.
> 
> So I dont see the problem.
> 
> ...



Does that take into account Gamma Knife though? I don't think Luffy could have won without Law's contribution.

Though I guess Oda might have intended Gamma Knife to just set Luffy and Doflamingo on an even playing field. If that's the case, I suppose Zoro could have been stronger than Doflamingo, though not by much.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Nikseng (Apr 10, 2021)

Doflamingo was obviously stronger.

Why you people can't understand that Zoro (and every strawhats for that matter) gets passively stronger each and every arc (not even accounting huge power-ups like Enma) and that a Zoro from *7 years ago *and _300 chapters_ back isn't remotely as strong as he is now - even excluding Enma.

It required a combined effort of Law and Luffy to take Doffy down and he pretty much enslaved the whole country with bird cage (which Zoro couldn't destroy).
Dressrosa Zoro was ~ Law  who got low-mid diffed by non-awakaned Doffy. Serious Doffy mid diff Dressrosa Zoro.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Datassassin (Apr 10, 2021)

LadyVados said:


> I was just pointing out kaido is really really fast
> 
> What do you mean ? He blitzed Kaku Pre TS


402 shows that Kaku stalls a bit in the air after launching Amane Dachi, which makes sense as a drawback for the intense attack power it offers. Kaku banked on his attack cutting through Zoro's and killing him, and he bet wrong. When Zoro lands Asura on Kaku, Kaku is stalled just like he was in 402 and moreover was in shock over Amane Dachi being obliterated.

Asura was never a G2 stat boost, and damn sure isn't a G4 level stat boost. 417 twice shows Zoro was already able to out-pace Kaku with his other attacks and have them land on Kaku's body; the idea of _Asura as an enabler of speed-boosting_ is like saying the usage of Shishi Sonson grants Zoro speed he didn't already have. Any visual implication of speediness in these techniques is about Zoro's increased & managed effort.

In any case, Kaido's track record for willful evasion [over trusting in his defense] is poor. Present Zoro already had tagged Kaido before in 1001 (with us not knowing how much Kaido would have been able to avoid Zoro if he really wanted to) using Oni Giri, so it's not like any particular technique allowed Zoro to touch Kaido.


Mikasa said:


> *Oda state Luffy was gonna beat Doffy even without help.*
> 
> So I dont see the problem.
> 
> ...


So, the OP wiki's entry for the SBS I think you're referring to is this unless I'm mixing stuff up:

"_Oda: The tradeoff of not being able to move that you’re referring to never existed in the first place. If he wanted to move but couldn’t use Haki during that time, he could still run from place to place to hide. In Dressrosa, after using Gear Fourth, he coincidentally ran into his allies and supporters so he could preserve his energy while they carried him to the next fight. If those people weren’t there then *Luffy would just have to do his best!*_"

Luffy is never going to die before the end of the story, so yes the author would write infinite alternate ways for his protagonist to win. It was still clear that without plot-protection, Law's mountain of help, and plot-induced stupidity (all things you cannot use in the Battledome), Luffy would have lost. DR Luffy was not capable of defeating a fresh DD on his own, so obviously DR Zoro wasn't outdoing the damn captain.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Informative 1 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Yumi Zoro (Apr 10, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> 402 shows that Kaku stalls a bit in the air after launching Amane Dachi, which makes sense as a drawback for the intense attack power it offers. Kaku banked on his attack cutting through Zoro's and killing him, and he bet wrong. When Zoro lands Asura on Kaku, Kaku is stalled just like he was in 402 and moreover was in shock over Amane Dachi being obliterated.
> 
> Asura was never a G2 stat boost, and damn sure isn't a G4 level stat boost. 417 twice shows Zoro was already able to out-pace Kaku with his other attacks and have them land on Kaku's body; the idea of _Asura as an enabler of speed-boosting_ is like saying the usage of Shishi Sonson grants Zoro speed he didn't already have. Any visual implication of speediness in these techniques is about Zoro's increased & managed effort.
> 
> ...



Ya know, I dont read One Piece like you guys do.

Nor does I wanna waste time on pointless debate anyway.

Take it as you want, but I have Zoro stomp Doffy according to feat and portrayal.


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## Yumi Zoro (Apr 10, 2021)

Also why does it count for Zoro hater if Dresrossa Zoro stomp Doffy?

Current Zoro can kill 100 Doffy with his eye closed.

So dont see the point outside of embarrassed yourself further.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Datassassin (Apr 10, 2021)

Mikasa said:


> Ya know, I dont read One Piece like you guys have.


That helps to explain your statements then 


Mikasa said:


> I have Zoro stomp Doffy according to *feat and portrayal*.


I'm just saying the bolded are things DR Zoro flatout didn't have. Zoro stans are taking the new shit and reaching back in time to inexplicably argue for weaker, prior versions of Zoro. Super odd.


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## Yumi Zoro (Apr 10, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> That helps to explain your statements then
> 
> I'm just saying the bolded are things DR Zoro flatout didn't have. Zoro stans are taking the new shit and reaching back in time to inexplicably argue for weaker, prior versions of Zoro. Super odd.



Zoro stomp Doffy.


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## Datassassin (Apr 10, 2021)

Mikasa said:


> Zoro stomp Doffy.


Current Zoro should, yes. It's three arcs and various power-hikes later comrade.


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## Yumi Zoro (Apr 10, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> Current Zoro should, yes. It's three arcs and various power-hikes later comrade.


ZKD


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## Van Basten (Apr 10, 2021)

Doflamingo’s strength getting thoughtful assessment?


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## chinesesoccerplayer (Apr 10, 2021)

Don’t let Zoro’s recent feats with Enma cloud your judgement, if Dressrosa Zoro had fought Doflamingo one on one he would have lost high diff at best. It took Law AND Luffy to soften Doffy up first before Luffy could finish him off with G4. If this poll had been made back during the Dressrosa arc you all know you’d pick Doffy.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ezekjuninor (Apr 10, 2021)

chinesesoccerplayer said:


> If this poll had been made back during the Dressrosa arc you all know you’d pick Doffy.


Zoro had no serious feats before Wano though and he was also matched up against an admiral.

I think this is pretty. I'd say Zoro was stronger but he has no counter for Doflamingo's flight so I favour Doflamingo at that point.


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## Canute87 (Apr 10, 2021)

Zoro would have performed better than G2/G3 luffy.  He wouldn't have done better than G4 luffy and he wouldn't have forced awakening from doflamingo.

And then there's parasite.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Canute87 (Apr 10, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> Zoro had no serious feats before Wano though and he was also matched up against an admiral.
> 
> I think this is pretty. I'd say Zoro was stronger but he has no counter for Doflamingo's flight so I favour Doflamingo at that point.



So the mountain cuts on the pica golem weren't serious feats?


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## Ezekjuninor (Apr 10, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> So the mountain cuts on the pica golem weren't serious feats?


I guess so but Zoro didn't use Ashura which is his strongest attack and he defeated Pica easily. We never saw Zoro's limits post-timeskip before Wano


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## Canute87 (Apr 10, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> I guess so but Zoro didn't use Ashura which is his strongest attack and he defeated Pica easily. We never saw Zoro's limits post-timeskip before Wano



Has Law improved massively since dressrosa?


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## Ezekjuninor (Apr 10, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> Has Law improved massively since dressrosa?


Definitely but who seems stronger rn Zoro or Law? It's pretty obvious that Zoro must've been around Doffy's level at this point just like Luffy was considering how strong he is rn. Luffy has had fights with Doflamingo, Cracker, Katakuri, Kaidou and learned advanced CoA and Zoro was still keeping up with him on the rooftop.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Canute87 (Apr 10, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> Definitely but who seems stronger rn Zoro or Law? It's pretty obvious that Zoro must've been around Doffy's level at this point just like Luffy was considering how strong he is rn. Luffy has had fights with Doflamingo, Cracker, Katakuri, Kaidou and learned advanced CoA and Zoro was still keeping up with him on the rooftop.


flaming knew law's abilities quite well and his DF was good counter to his.

But my my point is, if law could get his ass kicked by flamingo , had no major fights that we know of and still get strong to the point where he can perform as good as he has now  against the  two yonkou , 
Then why is that that zoro's current performance means that he was THAT strong back in dressrosa?


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## Ezekjuninor (Apr 10, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> flaming knew law's abilities quite well and his DF was good counter to his.
> 
> But my my point is, if law could get his ass kicked by flamingo , had no major fights that we know of and still get strong to the point where he can perform as good as he has now  against the  two yonkou ,
> Then why is that that zoro's current performance means that he was THAT strong back in dressrosa?


Hmm, you might be right. I'm not a fan of characters growing significantly without any real catalyst.


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## Canute87 (Apr 10, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> Hmm, you might be right. I'm not a fan of characters growing significantly without any real catalyst.



But that isn't really  happening though.

Zoro is getting that catalyst by fighting kaido and going against ridiculous odds.  Haki flourishes in real battle.  Not the other aspects of fighting.  Luffy had to take a step back and meditate to get his new gears.  He didn't all of a sudden gain it in the midst of battle. Likewise the other aspects of  Zoro's fighting prowess. 

Luffy started to get the hang  of future sight in a few hours of fighting katakuri that took him decades to achieve.  These crazy situations are going to being about the biggest changes because who's even lucky enough to survive these encounters?

Reactions: Like 1


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## trance (Apr 10, 2021)

clearly doffy

probably mid diff or so

wano zoro oneshots tho

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Dunno (Apr 11, 2021)

Zoro takes it. I've tried telling people that Fujitora actually saved Doflamingo from Zoro, but people though I was trolling. Nice to see that more people are finally realizing it.



Canute87 said:


> flaming knew law's abilities quite well and his DF was good counter to his.
> 
> But my my point is, if law could get his ass kicked by flamingo , had no major fights that we know of and still get strong to the point where he can perform as good as he has now  against the  two yonkou ,
> Then why is that that zoro's current performance means that he was THAT strong back in dressrosa?


Because Zoro has the feats to back it up. For one, Fujitora actually intervened when he attacked Doflamingo, which shows us that Fujitora was worried about Doflamingo going down prematurely, which would have ruined his plan. Secondly, when Zoro was ambushed by the Admiral, he actually managed to withstand the gravity until the floor beneath him gave out, and after that, he was able to send a ranged slash, from a position of lying on his back, which pushed the Admiral back. This isn't the feats of someone weaker than Doflamingo. You can of course say that Fujitora wasn't serious about killing the SHs, and that is true. He was however very serious about his plan to abolish the Shichibukai, serious enough that he was willing to let thousands of civilians die to accomplish it.

Law, on the other hand, fought Doflamingo and lost. He was admittely not in prime condition during the fight, so he would have done better if he hadn't taken all of that damage beforehand. And Law did have the fight against Doflamingo, which was a very major fight for him, while Zoro had no such fight. Law's performance now also isn't as different to his DR performance as people think. His fruit allows him to mostly circumvent his opponent's defences, which allows him to fight effectively even against tanks, and his ability to move peoplle around is a great supporting ability no matter the opponent as well. His reaction speed and endurance seem to have increased significantly, but other than that he hasn't improved all that much.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Corax (Apr 11, 2021)

Zoro around high. Enma gave him only advanced CoA//more CoA. It boosted his attack power,not all stats. With his post TS stats he was likely at least YC2 even without Enma.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kroczilla (Apr 11, 2021)

Corax said:


> Zoro around high. Enma gave him only advanced CoA//more CoA. It boosted his attack power,not all stats. With his post TS stats he was likely at least YC2 even without Enma.


Again, Law did literally nothing but is much stronger than when he was in Dressrosa. As Oda has stated, the SH get stronger from Island to Island. You can't scale Wano feats all the way back to Dressrosa.


 If Zoro was atleast Y2, he would not have had any issues with Denjiro.


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## TheRealSJ (Apr 11, 2021)

It baffles me how some people actually think zoro came out of the timeskip,likely stronger than all of the strawhats combined. YC2 is not weak. Post-TS luffy was only like YC4 level and dressrosa luffy like YC3 Level. It just makes zoro sense whatsoever and it makes even less sense how people can accept that concept into their brains. Like wtf lol zoro stronger than his his captain and crew combined??

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Corax (Apr 11, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Again, Law did literally nothing but is much stronger than when he was in Dressrosa. As Oda has stated, the SH get stronger from Island to Island. You can't scale Wano feats all the way back to Dressrosa.
> 
> 
> If Zoro was atleast Y2, he would not have had any issues with Denjiro.


He wasn't fighting bloodlusted and with killing intent vs Denjiro. Even if we assume Denjito as YC3.5 borderline YC2 he only used 720 pound canon vs him (low end move at best).


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## Kroczilla (Apr 11, 2021)

Corax said:


> He wasn't fighting bloodlusted and with killing intent vs Denjiro. Even if we assume Denjito as YC3.5 borderline YC2 he only used 720 pound canon vs him (low end move at best).


He was bloodlusted. He wanted Orochi dead even if it jeopardized the plan which Yasiue gave his life to preserve as Sanji pointed out.

Further still, Denjiro no sold his attack without a casual sword slash. It didn't even warrant a real technique from Denjiro to disperse.

You are basically arguing that Zoro, fresh into the new world could solo the entire SH with moderate difficulty coz yes, that's what a YC2 lvl opponent would have done to them at the time.


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## Corax (Apr 11, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> You are basically arguing that Zoro, fresh into the new world could solo the entire SH with moderate difficulty coz yes, that's what a YC2 lvl opponent would have done to them at the time.


No. Luffy still had G4 (so he was at least YC3/YC3+). YC 2 can't beat YC3/YC3+ and some vets (M3 and Sanji)+support at the same time.


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## maupp (Apr 11, 2021)

The only thing that has improved from Zoro as far as we can tell is his offense via enma in Wano but he was already an offensive beast w/o Enma given he could already bust mountain and City scale attacks with Shusui. 

No one has any reasons to believe that his physical stats have vastly increased from DR to Wano given he wasn't in some extreme diff fights. 

Oda has actually given SHs tools and reasons to improve from their DR self. 

- Luffy via his extreme diff fights. 

- Sanji who wasn't much in DR and mostly just a hype tool, Oda gave him the RS to make up for his low starting point in DR. Oda didn't just pretend that Sanji is suddenly physically 10× more powerful then he was in DR, he gave him a suit. So I don't see why he'd start pretending Zoro is suddenly that much more powerful physically compared to DR. 

- Franky will always improve via his inventions.

- Usopp, Oda could always hone his Coo.

- Nami will improve via Zeus.

- Robin and Brook haven't had much fights, so we can't tell what's their improvements. 

With that in mind we know physically Zoro didn't drastically improve from his DR self but got a new sword that boosts him *offensively only *which means his other stats aren't too dissimilar from DR. 

Feat wise, speed, endurance, physical strength Zoro has shown on the roof suggest he was above Mingo. Offensively while he loses Enma and more refining of his COA, he was still an offensive monster with Shusui boosting mountain and city scales attacks. 

Zoro's performance on the rooftop further confirms what I'd always suspected, Oda purposefully took out Zoro from facing arc main antagonists because he felt he hadn't reached a point where Zoro wouldn't be able to handle the boss himself, so Oda had everyone but Zoro face Mingo directly. 

5 majors arcs since post skip started beside Wano and Oda couldn't realistically pit Zoro against the arc main villain without making them lose hype hence why Oda kept him away from them. 

- FI, arc main villain was Hody who got one shoted under water by Zoro. This is what happened when Oda dared Zoro to face the arc main villain. 

- PH, Zoro was kept away from Caesar and we all know what would have happened if they faced. Vergo could also be seen as the co main villain and Zoro would have also washed him(dude who brags about his COA and toughness. Zoro lives to cut shit like that).

- DR. Oda practically let all the protagonists heavy hitters go through Mingo but Zoro. Used Sanji as hype tool, Mingo was shown superior to Law and Luffy eventually defeated him. Only time we were about to see Zoro have a crack at Mingo, Oda prevented that by throwing in an admiral. 

My belief is that Oda felt that a confrontation with Zoro would have dehyped Mingo as an arc villain bc he wasn't going to look invisible and we were still in the middle of the arc. 

- WCI. Oda left Zoro behind. 

- Wano. Zoro finally get a crack at the arc main villain and it's a freaking Yonkou. Yet despite that fact Oda still had to go through the trouble of having 2 Yonkous together wear Zoro down. Shows how high Oda views Zoro in terms of power given he wouldn't even let a Yonkou straight up own Zoro on his own and had to concoct a way to have 2 Yonkous essentially take him out of his main protagonist fight. 

Zoro was simply too strong and Oda wasn't ready to let him face main villains given they'd lose hype before facing Luffy.


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## maupp (Apr 11, 2021)

Marik Swift said:


> Only thing separating DR Zoro from current Zoro is Enma, which is only an attack boost.
> 
> *The only argument anybody ever has against this fact is "Zoro scales to Luffy",* but the reality is that that's just "shounen logic", not an argument. In the battledore, we argue with feats, not "shounen logic".


Very well said. 

It's either people drop this shounen logic of every one scaling to the MC so we can properly speculate within battledome scenarios and rules or people keep that mentality and we all just drop these hypothetical match ups because they become pointless.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## MarcoThePhoenix (Apr 11, 2021)

Zoro wins high-extreme difficulty because Asura should be able to break through Parasite, just like G4 was able to. Once Zoro hits him with that Hakkai Doffy is dead.


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## Kroczilla (Apr 11, 2021)

Corax said:


> No. Luffy still had G4 (so he was at least YC3/YC3+). YC 2 can't beat YC3/YC3+ and some vets (M3 and Sanji)+support at the same time.


Bruh, just stop.

Apart from the fact that you have no actual facts supporting such a ludicrous position,a YC2 would totally defeat a YC3 and a few vets.

We saw Doffy absolutely dominate Law and even with Luffy's aid + the entire coliseum fighters i.e. an army of vets, they couldn't have won without G4. And even then, it required G4's ultimate attack.

So yes, if you believe that Zoro was YC2 i.e. a full tier above G4 Luffy, you should also believe that he soloes the rest of the crew.

At the very least have the decency to own up to this.


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## Kroczilla (Apr 11, 2021)

maupp said:


> Very well said.
> 
> It's either people drop this shounen logic of every one scaling to the MC so we can properly speculate within battledome scenarios and rules or people keep that mentality and we all just drop these hypothetical match ups because they become pointless.


If you are arguing based on a shounen, the. Shounen logic absolutely applies to characters jumping tiers after an arc or two. Feats do not scale to previous versions of a character, not without more solid proof than fanwank. Especially after said character got a massive upgrade and WOG has the protagonists get stronger as the story continues.


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