# Senju Tobirama vs. Namikaze Minato



## Mio (Aug 8, 2013)

I looked around and this wasn't made. Hope I wasn't wrong.

*Knowledge*: Manga
*Restrictions*: Kyūbi Chakra, Edo Tensei & Shiki Fūjin. They're both living and not Edo Tensei.
*Location*: Valley of the End
*State of Mind*: IC
*Distance*: Tobirama is on the Hashirama statue, Minato on the Madara one.


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## Dil (Aug 8, 2013)

Is Tobirama going to be using Edo Tensei or is that a restriction?


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## Mio (Aug 8, 2013)

Well, might as well restrict it too.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 8, 2013)

There's a reason why it wasn't made.

Unarmed, restricted Edo Tensei Tobirama doesn't have a chance at killing Minato.

His shunshin, and FTG speed is notably slower, and he lacks the offensive variants of Minato (Kunai Superslice, Rasengan, FCD, Summons).

He's essentially a slower, weaker ninja, living off of the singular jutsu he uses with less efficiency (Minato has FTG Lv. 2).


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## Rocky (Aug 8, 2013)

The restrictions make Tobirama a worse version of Minato, without the Frogs.


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## Dil (Aug 8, 2013)

Minato takes this.  Minato can spread his kunai around and teleport to Tobirama, Tobirama can only teleport to stationary objects so he would have to tag Minato in order for Tobirama to even land a hit on him. Minato is much more versatile with this hence why I’m going with him. Also he has Hirashin level 2 so he can just teleport to his moving kunais and blitz Tobirama.


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## 2Broken (Aug 8, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> There's a reason why it wasn't made.
> 
> Unarmed, restricted Edo Tensei Tobirama doesn't have a chance at killing Minato.



^This; he just doesn't have the feats for it and he already admitted Minato is faster than him.


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## Mio (Aug 8, 2013)

Minato's Shunshin is indeed faster than Tobirama's own, however I saw nothing that indicates that the FTG is too. They both looked instantaneous to me.

Also, while Tobirama might be slower, his reaction speed is faster. This was seen when he reacted to Jūbito's Bijū Orb before Minato did.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 8, 2013)

Tobirama outright admitted Minato's FTG was superior.

Tobirama's reaction speed isn't even close to Minato's. Unlike KCM Naruto and him, Tobirama couldn't hope to stare down V2 Raikage and avoid a face splatter in close range.

Moreover, Minato, missing an arm, was about to grapple the orb and jump with it elsewhere. In no way, shape or form does that suggest that Tobirama's reaction speed was greater. Even EMS Sasuke reacted to it by jumping in front of Naruto with Susano.


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## Dil (Aug 8, 2013)

Knowledge: Manga

That's the key to this battle. Tobirama has no clue about Hiraishin level 2. He'd be looking at Kunais being thrown at him and next to thing you know a Rasengan to the face.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 8, 2013)

Dil said:


> Knowledge: Manga
> 
> That's the key to this battle. Tobirama has no clue about Hiraishin level 2. He'd be looking at Kunais being thrown at him and next to thing you know a Rasengan to the face.


He knows, Hiruzen spoke about "markers" in front of Tobirama, which were the FTG kunai Minato placed around the battlefield.


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## Dil (Aug 8, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> He knows, Hiruzen spoke about "markers" in front of Tobirama, which were the FTG kunai Minato placed around the battlefield.



They are stationary objects, Tobirama just thinks Minato can teleport to stationary objects when the Kunais are placed, he doesn't know Minato can teleport to a moving Kunai.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 8, 2013)

Dil said:


> They are stationary objects, Tobirama just thinks Minato can teleport to stationary objects when the Kunais are placed, he doesn't know Minato can teleport to a moving Kunai.


That makes essentially no sense.

The "markers" are the kunai, which move when thrown. 

Tobirama tagged Obito, who moves. He also teleported to Minato, who moves.

Are you insinuating Tobirama is unaware his seal tags, which he invented, can be placed on objects that can move?


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## Complete_Ownage (Aug 8, 2013)

This honestly could go either way but I would have to go with Tobirama for one reason only...Intelligence

Both have shown incredibly fast reaction speeds that top most shinobi if not all besides Juubito. I honestly dont get when people say that Minato is CLEARLY faster the Tobirama. Both of them have left both naruto and sasuke puzzled at times along with each other. IF anything Minato has the advantage if not by much. 
Minato has dodged Raikage, arrived first to save the alliance and etc
Tobirama arrived at the orb before minato could even react, and Minato praised him on tagging Juubito while being blitzed

Tobirama has already stated that Minatos S/T ninjutsu is more advanced then his own(IF this was the correct translation).

Speed/reactions: I honestly think they are about equal or the slightest advantage to Minato
S/T Ninjutsu: Minato via Hiarashin kunei spam
Stamina: Tobiram since hes a senju but Minato also has tons himself

Basically they are so close in comparison at this point you could argue either side however as I stated before I believe Tobiramas Intelligence, sensing, and experience will turn what disadvatage he had into his favor for the win. Tobirama is practically the god of battle tactics at this point

Or they both tag each other and collide at the same time blowing up the planet


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## HappyHalloween (Aug 8, 2013)

So much Minato wank in here, even though we have actual manga panels, where Tobirama reacts way faster than Minato, has better and multiple S/T jutsus, and exponentially higher intelligence.  Minato's intelligence is so low, he wouldn't even begin to recognize any of Tobirama's tactics before Minato's gets trapped into a self-summoning exploding tag ritual and gets his body blown apart.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 8, 2013)

HappyHalloween said:


> So much Minato wank in here, even though we have actual manga panels, where Tobirama reacts way faster than Minato, has better and multiple S/T jutsus, and exponentially higher intelligence.  Minato's intelligence is so low, he wouldn't even begin to recognize any of Tobirama's tactics before Minato's gets trapped into a self-summoning exploding tag ritual and gets his body blown apart.


Did you miss where Tobirama admits Minato is faster than him, that his Hiraishin is better than his own, and miss all the plans and everything Minato made HappyHalloween, or are you just bashing Minato fans since its your favorite pass time?


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## Kai (Aug 8, 2013)

Minato has the faster Shunshin and his dexterity with Hiraishin on the marked kunai is much greater.

Typically this reasoning would be a far cry from settling the debate, but Tobirama doesn't have any other feats to fight an existential inferiority between both Shunshin and Hiraishin against Minato.

As a result though, because of their S/T game and Tobirama's experience and calculative intelligence in battle, Minato wins with high difficulty. 

Even if Tobirama was allowed to perform Edo Tensei, Minato may disrupt that with his Keiyaku Fuuin (Contract Seal).


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## richard lewis (Aug 8, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Tobirama outright admitted Minato's FTG was superior.
> 
> Tobirama's reaction speed isn't even close to Minato's. Unlike KCM Naruto and him, Tobirama couldn't hope to stare down V2 Raikage and avoid a face splatter in close range.
> 
> Moreover, Minato, missing an arm, was about to grapple the orb and jump with it elsewhere. In no way, shape or form does that suggest that Tobirama's reaction speed was greater. Even EMS Sasuke reacted to it by jumping in front of Naruto with Susano.



eh.... I'd have to disagree with this, tobirama could deffinitly avoid Ei if he had a seal laid already. Both sasuke and tobi where also able to react to Ei and I don't think there reactions are any better than tobirama's, and considering FTG doesn't require handseals all he has to do is think for a split second and he's teleported. Considering tobirama is a sensor I'd wager his reactions might be superior to minato's, but I certainly dont think he's slower teir most likely around equal. Minato is superior b/c he's found more advanced ways to use FTG like his S/T barrier and FTG lvl 2.


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## Turrin (Aug 8, 2013)

This match is basically comes down to who can get a FTG maker or clone close enough to use FTG LV 2, which nether is reacting to. Since Minato can spread out his FTG makers much more efficiently than Tobirama has displayed thus far, so I give Minato better odds of accomplishing this before Tobirama, but Tobirama does seem pretty clever, so I wouldn't write him off completely.


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## Empathy (Aug 8, 2013)

I was under the impression that the correct translation to the level two _Hirashin_ thing was actually the second step to _Hirashin_ (first step: throw marked kunai, second: warp to it). Not a faster or more advanced version of _Hirashin_. You don't get faster than instantaneous.


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## Veracity (Aug 9, 2013)

Are people seriously using what Tobirama said about Minato being faster at FTG to base their posts on?

Lets not bring up Itachi and Kisame vs Jirayia.

Tobirama has been keeping up with Minato for awhile at this point.

It's safe to say Minato isn't that much quicker especially since this is KCM Minato were talking about.


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## Veracity (Aug 9, 2013)

BTW, Empathy, what is wrong with your Tier list?
Is it based solely on the DB?


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## Bonly (Aug 9, 2013)

Turrin said:


> This match is basically comes down to who can get a FTG maker or clone close enough to use FTG LV 2, which nether is reacting to. Since Minato can spread out his FTG makers much more efficiently than Tobirama has displayed thus far, so I give Minato better odds of accomplishing this before Tobirama.



Basically this. Both have the tools to dodge the other jutsu for the most part so whoever tag who first, shall win more times then not which i'm favoring Minato at the moment.


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## ? (Aug 9, 2013)

Mio said:


> Also, while Tobirama might be slower, his reaction speed is faster. This was seen when he reacted to Jūbito's Bijū Orb before Minato did.


His reaction speed isn't faster. If it were, he would have a faster shunshin than Minato. Shunshin speed is determined by reflexes and chakra output. Considering Tobirama likely has more chakra than Minato, and still has a slower shunshin I think we can safely say Minato has better reflexes.

Tobirama had the advantage of watching the fight from the sidelines. Interception feats don't really give a good picture of who's faster. If we took all interception feats at face value, then that would mean Bee has better reaction speed than Ei.

Anyway, Minato is still stronger by feats. He wins with high difficulty.


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2013)

Empathy said:


> I was under the impression that the correct translation to the level two _Hirashin_ thing was actually the second step to _Hirashin_ (first step: throw marked kunai, second: warp to it). Not a faster or more advanced version of _Hirashin_. You don't get faster than instantaneous.


Viz translates it as LV2. But I honestly it doesn't matter what you call it, there are faster attacks with Hirashin. It's true that FTG is instant, but it only transports you instantly to the marker. The successive attack after teleporting is not instant however and a character can react to it.  However if the attack is formed before the teleport and the user teleports so that the attack lands on the person the moment they appear (or is just about to land) than it's much more difficult if not impossible to react in time to evade. For example:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Obito reacts to Minato using FTG and then attacking with a kunai slash, however he is not able to react to Tobirama teleporting Naruto so that the Rasengan is hitting Obito (or just about to) the moment that they appeared. 




So basically Minato & Tobirama are probably fast enough where they could react to FTG + successive attack, but not react to FTG to teleport an attack so it's hitting the person (or just about to). The ability to use the second FTG strategy seems to have to do with how close the marker is, hence why the match to me comes down to who gets a FTG marker close enough to use this strategy first.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 9, 2013)

? said:


> His reaction speed isn't faster. If it were, he would have a faster shunshin than Minato.



That is a non-sequitur. Shunshin has nothing to do with reaction. Shunshin is body speed. Reaction speed has to do with reflexes. Take the sharingan for example. It improves your reaction because it allows one to see small details but it does not improve your shunshin. 



? said:


> Shunshin speed is determined by reflexes and chakra output. Considering Tobirama likely has more chakra than Minato, and still has a slower shunshin I think we can safely say Minato has better reflexes.



Shunshin has nothing to do with reflexes. Shunshin speed is determined by natural body speed. Minato and A are naturally extremely fast, so understandably they have the fastest shunshin. Kakashi because of the sharingan has amazing reflexes but does not have amazing shunshin

Based on what we have seen so far, Tobirama has the better reflexes but Minato has the better body movement speed and shunshin



? said:


> Tobirama had the advantage of watching the fight from the sidelines. Interception feats don't really give a good picture of who's faster. If we took all interception feats at face value, then that would mean Bee has better reaction speed than Ei.



So? Kirabi has some of the best shunshin feats in the manga and his speed is augmented by an actual bijuu. I doubt that A is faster than him when he is not moving V2. Heck, A is not even that fast when he is not moving at V2 level since Darui's shunshin could keep up with him and Suigetsu use shunshin to block him



? said:


> Anyway, Minato is still stronger by feats. He wins with high difficulty.



Which feats make Minato stronger? I think this fight comes down to intelligence and luck. Minato has the faster shunshin but Tobirama also has FTG. Minato can throw kunai around and jump to them but Tobirama can use kage bunshin and swap with a bunshin if he is in trouble. Level 2 hiraishin would not work on him easily. If Minato throws a kunai at him and reappears with a rasengan, Tobirama could just as easily swap places with a bunshin and Minato would rasengan a bunshin. This fight could go either way


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Based on what we have seen so far, Tobirama has the better reflexes but Minato has the better body movement speed and shunshin


I doubt Tobirama has better reflexes than Minato, considering Minato's reflexes were actually hyped in the manga. What it might be is that Tobirama's reactions might be faster than Minato due to having sensing or due to his sensing being superior to Minato's. 

However honestly I don't know if Tobirama grabbing the Bomb before Minato was even a speed/reaction feat, I think it could have been a strength feat. As it looks like Minato actually reacts to the bomb before Tobirama even gets to that location. So what could have happened is the force that the Bomb was releasing was pushed Minato's hand back slowing him down while Tobirama muscled through it.



> If Minato throws a kunai at him and reappears with a rasengan, Tobirama could just as easily swap places with a bunshin and Minato would rasengan a bunshin. This fight could go either way


I doubt that Minato or Tobirama are reacting to FTG LV2, as the attack would probably hit them by the time they noticed it was used.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 9, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I doubt Tobirama has better reflexes than Minato, considering Minato's reflexes were actually hyped in the manga.



And so were Tobirama's by no less authority than Minato. Minato was compared to A. However, since Tobirama was not compared to A, Shii's statement does not apply to him. Tobirama has shown that he can react against Jyuubito in ways that Minato has not so far



Turrin said:


> What it might be is that Tobirama's reactions might be faster than Minato due to having sensing or due to his sensing being superior to Minato's.



Whatever the reason, manga feats support my position



Turrin said:


> However honestly I don't know if Tobirama grabbing the Bomb before Minato was even a speed/reaction feat, I think it could have been a strength feat. As it looks like Minato actually reacts to the bomb before Tobirama even gets to that location.



Minato was closer to the bomb than Tobirama. Tobirama grabbed it before he could, how is that strength and not speed?



Turrin said:


> So what could have happened is the force that the Bomb was releasing was pushed Minato's hand back slowing him down while Tobirama muscled through it.



 Tell me you are not serious



Turrin said:


> I doubt that Minato or Tobirama are reacting to FTG LV2, as the attack would probably hit them by the time they noticed it was used.



If they notice the attack, they would react to it


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> And so were Tobirama's by no less authority than Minato. Minato was compared to A. However, since Tobirama was not compared to A, Shii's statement does not apply to him. Tobirama has shown that he can react against Jyuubito in ways that Minato has not so far


When did Minato hype Tobirama's reflexes? I remember him just hyping Tobirama's reaction time in general, which doesn't completely depend on reflexes.



> Whatever the reason, manga feats support my position


If Sensing is enhancing his reaction time, that doesn't support him having better reflexes than Minato, just better reaction time.



> Minato was closer to the bomb than Tobirama. Tobirama grabbed it before he could, how is that strength and not speed?


I already explained that the force of the bomb could have been slowing Minato's hand down. 



> Tell me you are not serious


The fact of the matter is it doesn't make much sense that Tobirama would be able to notice the bomb, Shunshin over to Minato's location, and grab the bomb, all before KCM Minato was able to grab the bomb when he started right next to it. I mean I can buy Tobirama having better reaction time than Minato, but this would be an absurd difference.

So It's hard to imagine that speed or reaction time was the difference maker in that scenario. Instead it seems way more plausible to me that strength was or Minato simply noticed Tobirama appearing to grab the bomb and let him have it. 

Or and this is what i'm personally banking on, is that it just doesn't make sense. I mean the fact of the matter is Kishi doesn't seem to care about speed/reaction feats logic when he has a character appear from off panel to save another character.



> If they notice the attack, they would react to it


They wouldn't have time to notice the attack, even Obito did not notice the attack till he was already hit by it.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 9, 2013)

Turrin said:


> When did Minato hype Tobirama's reflexes? I remember him just hyping Tobirama's reaction time in general, which doesn't completely depend on reflexes.



Reflexes are actions that one can take without thinking. Right? Well, Tobirama got blitzed and even though he was blitzed, he took certain actions. Those actions he took are considered reflection of his reflexes. It is those actions that Minato praised



Turrin said:


> If Sensing is enhancing his reaction time, that doesn't support him having better reflexes than Minato, just better reaction time.



If sensing isnot enhancing his reaction time, then that supports him having better reflexes. You are splitting hairs. Reaction time and reflexes are one and the same in this argument. 



Turrin said:


> I already explained that the force of the bomb could have been slowing Minato's hand down.



No. You SPECULATED. You did not explain anything. Your speculation has no foundation either



Turrin said:


> The fact of the matter is it doesn't make much sense that Tobirama would be able to notice the bomb, Shunshin over to Minato's location, and grab the bomb, all before KCM Minato was able to grab the bomb when he started right next to it. I mean I can buy Tobirama having better reaction time than Minato, but this would be an absurd difference.



Welcome to manga reading 101 where you do with the author's description and not what makes sense to you

Tobirama reacted before Minato could because Kishi decided he would. You don't like it because you are a Minato fan but that is not my problem



Turrin said:


> So It's hard to imagine that speed or reaction time was the difference maker in that scenario. Instead it seems way more plausible to me that strength was or Minato simply noticed Tobirama appearing to grab the bomb and let him have it.



Sorry bro but your fanfiction won't cut it. If Minato had noticed Tobirama Kishi would have no reason to waste a panel on "don't worry that was only a clone". He could have used that panel to establish the fact that Minato had noticed Tobirama coming to save them. Furthermore, this whole force argument is quite inane. Since when does the force of an unexploded item slow down a human being?



Turrin said:


> Or and this is what i'm personally banking on, is that it just doesn't make sense. I mean the fact of the matter is Kishi doesn't seem to care about speed/reaction feats logic when he has a character appear from off panel to save another character.



Then you should conclude that Minato's reaction time is no faster than anyone else for that matter since Kishi does not care 

You can't have it both ways. 



Turrin said:


> They wouldn't have time to notice the attack, even Obito did not notice the attack till he was already hit by it.



I did not realize that Obito is the measuring stick of every character. Just because he did not notice does not mean no one can. Furthermore, Minato got lucky because Obito phases through attacks. Tobirama would not phase through the kunai allowing Minato to reappear near him. He would know that Minato throwing a kunai means that he could teleport to it any time. He would react differently from Tobi. So, the best course of action for him would be to swap places with a bunshin the minute Minato throws a kunai in his direction. This allows him to avoid a potential blow and gives him a chance to place an exploding fuuda on Minato.


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## ? (Aug 9, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> That is a non-sequitur. Shunshin has nothing to do with reaction. Shunshin is body speed. Reaction speed has to do with reflexes. Take the sharingan for example. It improves your reaction because it allows one to see small details but it does not improve your shunshin.
> 
> Shunshin has nothing to do with reflexes. Shunshin speed is determined by natural body speed. Minato and A are naturally extremely fast, so understandably they have the fastest shunshin. Kakashi because of the sharingan has amazing reflexes but does not have amazing shunshin
> 
> Based on what we have seen so far, Tobirama has the better reflexes but Minato has the better body movement speed and shunshin



Oh nevermind, I got Shunshin speed mixed up with combat speed  . It's combat speed that's determined by reflexes. Still, I don't think that interception feat proves Tobirama has better reflexes. We don't know when he started moving  to remove the bomb. For all we know it could have been the moment Obito put the bomb on Minato, and Minato hadn't even noticed the bomb at that point.



> So? Kirabi has some of the best shunshin feats in the manga and his speed is augmented by an actual bijuu. I doubt that A is faster than him when he is not moving V2. Heck, A is not even that fast when he is not moving at V2 level since Darui's shunshin could keep up with him and Suigetsu use shunshin to block him


That's the thing; Ei was using V2 against Minato, while Bee was only using his base form. Even then, Bee managed to intercept Minato when Ei couldn't do anything. If we counted interception feats as reflex feats that would mean base Bee> Ei in reflexes, which is absurd.  



> Which feats make Minato stronger? I think this fight comes down to intelligence and luck. Minato has the faster shunshin but Tobirama also has FTG. Minato can throw kunai around and jump to them but Tobirama can use kage bunshin and swap with a bunshin if he is in trouble. Level 2 hiraishin would not work on him easily. If Minato throws a kunai at him and reappears with a rasengan, Tobirama could just as easily swap places with a bunshin and Minato would rasengan a bunshin. This fight could go either way


Minato has more versatility and dexterity with Hiraishin, and that's basically what this fight comes down to. Nothing else in their arsenals are a threat to one another. Tobirama's intellegence will make this very difficult for Minato, but he doesn't have many options of landing a hit on Minato. Only thing he can do is tag him, which I don't think he can do. Goshun Mawashi is slower with clones, so I have big doubts Tobirama can swap places with a clone in the middle of Minato's Hiraishin blitz.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 9, 2013)

? said:


> Oh nevermind, I got Shunshin speed mixed up with combat speed  . It's combat speed that's determined by reflexes. Still, I don't think that interception feat proves Tobirama has better reflexes. We don't know when he started moving  to remove the bomb. For all we know it could have been the moment Obito put the bomb on Minato, and Minato hadn't even noticed the bomb at that point.



Minato moved with FTG, if we go with your interpretation, you are saying that Tobirama is so fast that in the split second it took for Minato to move, Tobirama moved with his physical speed so fast that he was able to react Minato before Minato could reach the other side of his body. Sounds to me like that cements Tobirama being faster altogether 



? said:


> That's the thing; Ei was using V2 against Minato, while Bee was only using his base form. Even then, Bee managed to intercept Minato when Ei couldn't do anything. If we counted interception feats as reflex feats that would mean base Bee> Ei in reflexes, which is absurd.



Except that you are ignoring the way the fight unfolded. A attacked, Minato used FTG. Then Minato used his physical speed to attack A and Kirabi reacted. They were reacting to two different things FTG and physical speed. Apples and oranges



? said:


> Minato has more versatility and dexterity with Hiraishin, and that's basically what this fight comes down to. Nothing else in their arsenals are a threat to one another. Tobirama's intellegence will make this very difficult for Minato, but he doesn't have many options of landing a hit on Minato. Only thing he can do is tag him, which I don't think he can do. Goshun Mawashi is slower with clones, so I have big doubts Tobirama can swap places with a clone in the middle of Minato's Hiraishin blitz.



1. Tobirama does not have to swap places with a clone, he could simply teleport to any location he chooses and therefore nullify the blitz
2. Even if the swap with the clone is slower, Tobirama only needs to touch Minato to place tags on him. If he does Minato is dead.


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Reflexes are actions that one can take without thinking. Right? Well, Tobirama got blitzed and even though he was blitzed, he took certain actions. Those actions he took are considered reflection of his reflexes. It is those actions that Minato praised
> .


You have to think to use Sensing.



> If sensing isnot enhancing his reaction time, then that supports him having better reflexes. You are splitting hairs. Reaction time and reflexes are one and the same in this argument.


Sensing is effecting his reaction time tho. 



> No. You SPECULATED. You did not explain anything. Your speculation has no foundation either


You can't explain a hypothesis....



> Welcome to manga reading 101 where you do with the author's description and not what makes sense to you
> 
> Tobirama reacted before Minato could because Kishi decided he would. You don't like it because you are a Minato fan but that is not my problem


This is a narrow minded way to look at it. And Iol Tobirama's my favorite Hokage, if anyone is biased it's the man named Senju Clan being biased towards Senju.



> Sorry bro but your fanfiction won't cut it. If Minato had noticed Tobirama Kishi would have no reason to waste a panel on "don't worry that was only a clone". He could have used that panel to establish the fact that Minato had noticed Tobirama coming to save them. Furthermore, this whole force argument is quite inane. Since when does the force of an unexploded item slow down a human being?


Your trying to mind read what Kishimoto would do, which is not a good argument.



> Then you should conclude that Minato's reaction time is no faster than anyone else for that matter since Kishi does not care
> 
> You can't have it both ways.


Kishi is willing to sacrifice logic for the dramatic off panel arrival/save, that doesn't mean he always throws logic to the wind.



> did not realize that Obito is the measuring stick of every character. Just because he did not notice does not mean no one can. Furthermore, Minato got lucky because Obito phases through attacks. Tobirama would not phase through the kunai allowing Minato to reappear near him. He would know that Minato throwing a kunai means that he could teleport to it any time. He would react differently from Tobi. So, the best course of action for him would be to swap places with a bunshin the minute Minato throws a kunai in his direction. This allows him to avoid a potential blow and gives him a chance to place an exploding fuuda on Minato.


I'm talking about JuubiObito and yeah I think it's safe to assume that if JuubiObito is hit before he even notices the attack, than Tobirama or Minato are not doing so.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 9, 2013)

Turrin said:


> You have to think to use Sensing.
> 
> Sensing is effecting his reaction time tho.



Does not matter he has shown better reaction speed than Minato



Turrin said:


> You can't explain a hypothesis....



You but then you have to substantiate them



Turrin said:


> This is a narrow minded way to look at it. And Iol Tobirama's my favorite Hokage, if anyone is biased it's the man named Senju Clan being biased towards Senju.



1. So me claiming that we should judge characters based on the author's description is narrow-minded but you thinking that we should ignore the author and just go by how Turrin thinks is the correct exegesis?  
2. Funny that the guy who has the Senjuclan handle is on the record as saying that Minato is stronger than Tobirama. What a biased man indeed



Turrin said:


> Your trying to mind read what Kishimoto would do, which is not a good argument.



I am trying to read the manga. You are adding things that the author has not written. 



Turrin said:


> Kishi is willing to sacrifice logic for the dramatic off panel arrival/save, that doesn't mean he always throws logic to the wind.



So, in other words we have no basis to say that Minato reaction speed is anything to write home about. Kishi just uses for the dramatic



Turrin said:


> I'm talking about JuubiObito and yeah I think it's safe to assume that if JuubiObito is hit before he even notices the attack, than Tobirama or Minato are not doing so.



When did Minato uses FTG Level 2 on Jyuubito? They have only used FTG and FTG Swap. Either one of them can use that jutsu. So again it comes down to intelligence and luck as I said in my OP. Tobirama is the more intelligent character but seriously luck would determine who wins this because they have the same arsenal (with these restrictions)


----------



## Veracity (Aug 9, 2013)

Turrin said:


> When did Minato hype Tobirama's reflexes? I remember him just hyping Tobirama's reaction time in general, which doesn't completely depend on reflexes.
> 
> 
> If Sensing is enhancing his reaction time, that doesn't support him having better reflexes than Minato, just better reaction time.
> ...



I hate when people do this^ - It's the most irritating thing I've ever seen. 

Just like when people say ALL the Kage just watched as Tsunade blocked Madara's Katon, that they could have moved, but they were to tired or they thought Tsunade could handle it. No, no ninja thinks like this during the middle of a war that determines their entire life. When the slightest move can end your lives, no ninja is going to think like this, especially when Ay was just caught in a Justu doing so.

No, Minato did not just let Tobirama jump the bomb. He just couldn't do jack shit. He probably didn't even notice Tobirama cause he was too busy saving his god damn life from an exploding bomb. Tobirama just reacted faster. Point blank period. Kishi made that so obvious and simple. But Mianto wankers say otherwise.

And lol at Tobiramas reaction feat being a strength feat. Just no. Your exerting to much logic into this manga. Kishi doesn't like logic. If he want to make a point, he usually makes it extremely obvious like just now.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 9, 2013)

Base Minato is supraior version of tobirama.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 9, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Base Minato is supraior version of tobirama.



Cool story bro.

Minato has hiraishin so does Tobirama. Tobirama has edo tensei and Minato has nothing that compares. He is a better sensor. Better at taijutsu. Stronger chakra. Stronger physically. More intelligent. 

Without KCM I don't see Minato as being superior


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## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 9, 2013)

Wow, I am surprised by Turrin argument. Tobirama Reaction speed being a strength feat? lol

Instead of speculating just go with what Kishi has displayed. Stop nitpicking, that was a clear indication that Tobirama has superior reaction speed than Minato. 

Ninjutsu: Tobirama
Taijutsu: Tobirama
Genjutsu: Unknown
Seals: Tobirama (He can create jutsu's with one hand seal)
Strength: Tobirama 
Weapon: Tobirama (Used Kenjutsu to defeat Izuna)
Speed: Minato (The difference isn't that great)
Intelligence: Tobirama (Going by the latest chapter)


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## Rocky (Aug 9, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Minato has hiraishin so does Tobirama.



And Minato has a way to mobilize it. Remember how he defeated Obito?



> Tobirama has edo tensei and Minato has nothing that compares.



Tobirama's Edo Tensei is technically worse than Orochimaru's making it pretty bad. It wouldn't be a useless asset in battle, but not more valuable than say, Minato's entire Toad army.



> He is a better sensor.



Minato isn't a sensor, IIRC.



> Better at taijutsu.



Unfounded. 



> Stronger chakra.



Again, unfounded. Though also a useless category. 



> Stronger physically.



Tobirama has no strength feats that we know of, while Minato could cut through Bijuu limbs.



> More intelligent.



What, is this based on Tobirama calling Minato & Naruto dumb? Because of Minato's naming scheme?

Minato is similar to Naruto in cunningness without the bursts of stupidity, while Tobirama seems consistently by the book and level headed.

They can both be considered geniuses, but I don't think either really has any ground over the other.


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Does not matter he has shown better reaction speed than Minato


Which does not mean he's shown better reflexes. As for as reaction time is concerned Tobirama might be better or he might not, I'd rather wait till we have a bit more info/feats first.



> You but then you have to substantiate them


I have to prove it, if i'm asserting it as a fact, which I never did. 



> So me claiming that we should judge characters based on the author's description is narrow-minded but you thinking that we should ignore the author and just go by how Turrin thinks is the correct exegesis?


There is no author description of the events that happened. Heck we don't even have a character describing them.



> Funny that the guy who has the Senjuclan handle is on the record as saying that Minato is stronger than Tobirama.


You don't have to say a character is stronger to be bias in their favor.For instance if I say Itachi is as strong as Hashirama/Madara, but weaker than Rikudo am I not still being biased in Itachi's favor, considering their current displays/hype/etc...? Bottom line is your more likely to be biased for a Senju, than I am to be biased against Tobirama in this scenario, since your arguing for a Senju, which you obviously have a preference towards, while i'm arguing against a character I have a preference towards; Tobirama. Though your the one who threw out the accusation of bias in the first place, while all I did is speak towards likelihood. 



> I am trying to read the manga. You are adding things that the author has not written.


You are also adding things the author has not written, as we did not see Tobirama notice the Bomb, react to it, and than watch him move to where Minato & company were. All we saw was Tobirama's hand appearing and grabbing the bomb, the rest was off panel.

For all we know Tobirama could have reacted to the bomb at the same time as Minato, but while Minato used physical speed to reach for it, Tobirama used Shunshin. That's why it's so hard to use  dramatic entrances from off panel as tangible feats of speed/reactions.



> o, in other words we have no basis to say that Minato reaction speed is anything to write home about. Kishi just uses for the dramatic


Your extrapolating that because Kishi sacrifices logic for dramatic entrances that he does so in every other instance, which is not a logical conclusion to come to. It's like saying if their is 1 plot hole or instance of deus ex machina in the manga, than every thing is a plot hole or deus ex machina. 



> When did Minato uses FTG Level 2 on Jyuubito? They have only used FTG and FTG Swap.



*Spoiler*: __ 



Minato didn't, Tobirama did with Naruto last chapter






> Either one of them can use that jutsu. So again it comes down to intelligence and luck as I said in my OP. Tobirama is the more intelligent character but seriously luck would determine who wins this because they have the same arsenal (with these restrictions)


No it would primarily come down to who can get a FTG-Teleport point closer to the other one first. Intelligence is part of that (though i'm not sure I'd go so far as claiming Tobirama is more intelligent than Minato, yet), but   an even more significant part is how quickly/efficiently Minato and Tobirama can spread out their FFTG-Teleport point . The one who do this quicker and more efficiently will have better odds getting a FTG-Teleport point close enough to their opponent to use FTG LV2, before the other one does. 

Minato excels Tobirama quite a bit in this regard, from what we've seen so far, due to him not only possessing the same ability to manually place markers, use KB, but also due to having a large supply of FTG marked Kunai. Superior Shunshin speed also helps as well as he can move around the battlefield to spread markers/KB faster than Tobirama can.

This is why I'd ether like to see Tobirmaa display TKB spam, Mizu Bushin spam, or his own tagged weapons,  so that he can match or even excel Minato in this regard, but that has yet to happen.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 9, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Cool story bro.
> 
> Minato has hiraishin so does Tobirama. Tobirama has edo tensei and Minato has nothing that compares. He is a better sensor. Better at taijutsu. Stronger chakra. Stronger physically. More intelligent.
> 
> Without KCM I don't see Minato as being superior



Minato has better FTG, and he can use the contract seal against the Edo. 
And tobirama has no feat at taijutsu whatsoever. 

And about intelligent is debatable.


----------



## Senjuclan (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky said:


> And Minato has a way to mobilize it. Remember how he defeated Obito?



Obito is not Tobirama. Obito's jutsu works differently. Your example does not mean anything. Minato and Tobirama are using the same exact jutsu



Rocky said:


> Tobirama's Edo Tensei is technically worse than Orochimaru's making it pretty bad. It wouldn't be a useless asset in battle, but not more valuable than say, Minato's entire Toad army.



Minato's entire toad army could never hit Tobirama because of his ST jutsu. However, regardless of how bad his edo tensei is, he can use ST ninjutsu with them to land an exploding tag on Minato. He put an exploding tag on Jyuubito who is faster than Minato



Rocky said:


> Minato isn't a sensor, IIRC.



FYI Minato can sense people's presence by putting his finger on the ground (another jutsu he stole from Tobirama)



Rocky said:


> Unfounded.
> 
> Again, unfounded. Though also a useless category.



I won't waste my time on you bro



Rocky said:


> Tobirama has no strength feats that we know of, while Minato could cut through Bijuu limbs.



Read the manga then or better yet ask Turrin who is a fellow Minato fan



Rocky said:


> What, is this based on Tobirama calling Minato & Naruto dumb? Because of Minato's naming scheme?



Read the manga and find out what happened after Tobirama called them dumb

Minato is similar to Naruto in cunningness without the bursts of stupidity, while Tobirama seems consistently by the book and level headed.



Rocky said:


> They can both be considered geniuses, but I don't think either really has any ground over the other.



If that is what you think after last chapter, you certainly don't read the manga and I don't want to spend too much time arguing you



Turrin said:


> Which does not mean he's shown better reflexes. As for as reaction time is concerned Tobirama might be better or he might not, I'd rather wait till we have a bit more info/feats first.



We have gone through this already. I explained why reflexes and reaction are one and the same in the context of manga character. 



Turrin said:


> I have to prove it, if i'm asserting it as a fact, which I never did.



So don't waste time throwing out hypotheses if you don't believe in their veracity 



Turrin said:


> There is no author description of the events that happened. Heck we don't even have a character describing them.



There is Minato trying to get to the bomb and failing and Tobirama getting to it before Minato could. I don't know what else you need



Turrin said:


> You don't have to say a character is stronger to be bias in their favor.For instance if I say Itachi is as strong as Hashirama/Madara am I not still being biased in Itachi's favor, considering their current displays/hype/etc...?



You seem to have a problem with grasping the concept of bias. If I am biased towards Tobirama, I would say he is the stronger of the two. Now, If I were biased against Minato, I would say he is weaker than Tobirama. However, I have said quite the contrary. I said KCM Minato is a tad stronger than Tobirama



Turrin said:


> Bottom line is your more likely to be biased for a Senju, than I am to be biased against Tobirama in this scenario, since your arguing for a Senju, which you obviously have a preference towards, while i'm arguing against a character I have a preference towards; Tobirama. Though your the one who throughout the accusation of bias in the first place, while all I did is speak towards likelihood.



The fact that you are biased towards Minato is known to all on this forum but apparently not to you. I am self avowed Senju fan and one of the biggest defender of Tobirama. However, the fact that I have said that KCM Minato is stronger than him is also known to all. I am the one who is not biased in this argument. 



Turrin said:


> You are also adding things the author has not written, as we did not see Tobirama notice the Bomb, react to it, and than watch him move to where Minato & company were. All we saw was Tobirama's hand appearing and grabbing the bomb, the rest was off panel.



I did not add anything. I said he could do all that shit faster than Minato could reach to the other side of his body. That is called deduction bro



Turrin said:


> For all we know Tobirama could have reacted to the bomb at the same time as Minato, but while Minato used physical speed to reach for it, Tobirama used Shunshin. That's why it's so hard to use  dramatic entrances from off panel as tangible feats of speed/reactions.



So in other words he reached it faster than Minato. That's all. Ain't nobody sitting here and putting Minato down for having used shunshin to attack the Iwa nin before he could react or having used shunshin to escape the exploding fuuda when Tobi attacked Naruto. That shit don't matter bro. We give Minato credit for having the reflexes to react with shunshin. Now all of a sudden you don't want to do the same for Tobirama. Let me guess that's because you are not biased, right?



Turrin said:


> Your extrapolating that because Kishi sacrifices logic for dramatic entrances that he does so in every other instance, which is not a logical conclusion to come to. It's like saying if their is 1 plot hole or instance of deus ex machina in the manga, than every thing is a plot hole or deus ex machina.



Cherry picking again? We have a man that Minato said was extremely fast, a man that put two tags on Jyuubito while Minato was unable to put any and did not even realize that Jyuubito put a bomb on him. Now that man saves Minato's ass and you sit here and claim that it is not because he is fast. Cool story bro



Turrin said:


> Minato didn't, Tobirama did with Naruto last chapter



I don't see what is novel about that attack. It is no different than any other hiraishin attack 



Turrin said:


> No it would primarily come down to who can get a FTG-Teleport point closer to the other one first. Intelligence is part of that (though i'm not sure I'd go so far as claiming Tobirama is more intelligent than Minato, yet), but   an even more significant part is how quickly/efficiently Minato and Tobirama can spread out their FFTG-Teleport point . The one who do this quicker and more efficiently will have better odds getting a FTG-Teleport point close enough to their opponent to use FTG LV2, before the other one does.



1. Tobirama has outshone Minato in every area of intelligence. He has more knowledge. He has shown better strategies and also better observation skills. 
2. It comes down to strategy because they are using the same jutsu. The better stratagem in this case is Tobirama, hence why I am leaning towards him



Turrin said:


> Minato excels Tobirama quite a bit in this regard, from what we've seen so far, due to him not only possessing the same ability to manually place markers, use KB, but also due to having a large supply of FTG marked Kunai. Superior Shunshin speed also helps as well as he can move around the battlefield to spread markers/KB faster than Tobirama can.



That shit won't help because Tobirama knows how the jutsu works. He will know to avoid those kunai. Plus, he can swap places with a clone. Again, this shit comes down to strategy and luck as I said 



Turrin said:


> This is why I'd ether like to see Tobirmaa display TKB spam, Mizu Bushin spam, or his own tagged weapons,  so that he can match or even excel Minato in this regard, but that has yet to happen.



We know he can do it. We don't need to see it to give him credit. I have never seen Itachi copy a jutsu but I know he can. Same shit with Tobirama. He uses his clones for FTG and since he can use TKB, we know he can use multiple clones for FTG. We know he can use at the very least 3 clones + his body (Safe to say he can create way more than 3 clones given the fact that he was disappointed that he was restricted to only 2 clones)


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## Senjuclan (Aug 9, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Minato has better FTG



This is based on what again?



TorJaN said:


> and he can use the contract seal against the Edo.
> And tobirama has no feat at taijutsu whatsoever.
> 
> And about intelligent is debatable.



1. Will he use the contract seal on the edo zombies before or after they have placed explosive tags on him? Do you realize that he has to be super close to the enemy and stay there for a few seconds before that seal works. That is close enough and long enough for the zombies to put a tag on him and after that Tobirama summon more tags on his ass
2. You said intelligence is debatable? Go ahead and debate it. Make a case for why Minato is more intelligent than Tobirama. I will wait to hear it


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## Nikushimi (Aug 9, 2013)

Minato and Tobirama can't really hit each other unless one of them gets caught off-guard. So it comes down to a battle of stamina and we have no idea how they compare (unless Minato is allowed KCM, which should last him a lot longer than Tobirama's natural chakra reserves).

Minato's got a better shot at winning this if he pulls out the Hiraishin kunai and starts spamming them right off the bat before Tobirama has a chance to set up any seals around the battlefield.


Off-topic: Empathy, your set looks badass, even though Obito is a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".). Cool stuff; I really like the texture of it, especially.


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## Rocky (Aug 9, 2013)

Turrin, I wouldn't bother. 

He doesn't seem very rational, or even capable of comprehending an argument.


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## Trojan (Aug 9, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> This is based on what again?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- based on feats, tobirama admitted that, A said there is no one faster than him but minato 
And then Naruto. 

- lol, you mean those fodders will place tags on him? Please don't make me laugh, minato 
Eat those fodders for brackfast, you may want to see the 3rd war. Also, remember how Edo tobirama 
And hashi were fodders? Yeah, tobirama s jutsu is even weaker, and he will summon even weaker 
Ninjas!! And if we will ignore that he needs sacrifices, it's only fair to say minato has a lot of 
Uzumakis sealing jutsu, or we can assume he will summon pa and ma and they will use frog song
Without preparing time!!! 

- well, I'm writing from the I-pad so, I don't have the links as for now, but
Well, you remember what jman  said about minato being a genius that can't be seen for a generation
And all that stuff! Even though he lived during tobirama s regin and even hashis.


----------



## Senjuclan (Aug 9, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> - based on feats



The jutsu is the same. The feats are the same. They move through a portal and reappear next to their enemy. 



TorJaN said:


> tobirama admitted that



Tobirama was talking about SHUNSHIN not FTG



TorJaN said:


> , A said there is no one faster than him but minato
> And then Naruto.



What does A know about Minato? He did not say there has never been a man faster than me in the history of the shinobi world besides Minato. If we go by this line of thinking that means that Minato is faster than RS. However, we know that is wrong because Jyuubito, a weaker version of RS, is faster than Minato. A was speaking of people he has met not all ninjas before him



TorJaN said:


> - lol, you mean those fodders will place tags on him? Please don't make me laugh, minato



IF Minato is on your body even a fodder can put a tag on him. If he tries to avoid the tag then he won't apply the seal. Just because someone is fodder does not mean they can't place a tag on someone who is touching them



TorJaN said:


> Eat those fodders for brackfast, you may wan to see the 3rd war. Also, remember how Edo tobirama
> And hashi were fodders? Yeah, tobirama s jutsu is even weaker, and he will summon even weaker
> Ninjas!! And if we will ignore that he needs sacrifices, it's only fair to say minato has a lot of
> Uzumakis sealing jutsu, or we can assume he will summon pa and ma and they will use frog song
> Without preparing time!!!



1. Minato cannot summon Ma and Pa until he does. The databook says the number of people who can summon them is very limited. It would not say that if anyone with a contract could summon them
2. Apparently you did not read Kakashi gaiden. Minato was attacking people by jumping from kunai to kunai. Here he has to touch the zombies and stay there for a few seconds. That is enough time for him to be tagged. 



TorJaN said:


> - well, I'm writing from the I-pad so, I don't have the links as for now, but
> Well, you remember what jman  said about minato being a genius that can't be seen for a generation
> And all that stuff! Even though he lived during tobirama s regin and even hashis.



So? How does that mean Minato is superior? It only means that Minato is a rare genius. However, Tobirama has him beat on every aspect of genius in this manga. 

Jutsu creation: Tobirama
General Knowledge: Tobirama
In Battle Strategy: Tobirama
Attention to Details: Tobirama

There is not one aspect of genius you can point that Minato is better at than Tobirama.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 9, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> We have gone through this already. I explained why reflexes and reaction are one and the same in the context of manga character.


And I explained why your wrong, something you choose to ignore & simply repeat yourself.



> So don't waste time throwing out hypotheses if you don't believe in their veracity


I believe it could be true, but I also believe ti could be wrong.



> There is Minato trying to get to the bomb and failing and Tobirama getting to it before Minato could. I don't know what else you need


That's not an author describing events, nor even a character, like you suggested. As for needing more I stated in the rest of my post why I need more than that, due to it's off panel nature.



> You seem to have a problem with grasping the concept of bias. If I am biased towards Tobirama, I would say he is the stronger of the two. Now, If I were biased against Minato, I would say he is weaker than Tobirama. However, I have said quite the contrary. I said KCM Minato is a tad stronger than Tobirama


So as long as someone doesn't say a character is stronger than thee other they can't be bias? So someone would not be bias against Hashirama or for Konohamaru, as long as they said Konohamaru is just a tad bit weaker than SM Hashirama. That's not how bias works.



> The fact that you are biased towards Minato is known to all on this forum but apparently not to you.


The people who would think i'm biased towards Minato are strictly the people who think anyone who defends Minato is biased for Minato; namely trolls. What's funny is that I was one of the first people to make a thread when the Hokages reappeared in the manga that Tobirama could be stronger than Minato, & everybody was saying I was a crazy Tobirama-Fanboy, but now that I defend Minato i'm a Minato-fanboy whose biased against Tobirama lol.

In reality I think Minato is an average to poorly written character, but he is still immensely strong/skilled. I'm sorry that I do not find it as cut an dry as you do that one of your fav characters is better than Minato in one of Minato's best & most hype areas which he just recieved a large boost to with KCM, based on a partly off paneled feat. But do you know how many of my fav characters are not just far more inferior to Minato in one of his best areas, but outright overall inferior to Minato even before KCM, the answer is pretty much all of them with Tobirama being the one possible exception, & Prime Hanzo being the very unlikely other exception. So suck it up, instead of whining about someone who doesn't even like Minato being bias towards him.



> I am self avowed Senju fan and one of the biggest defender of Tobirama. However, the fact that I have said that KCM Minato is stronger than him is also known to all. I am the one who is not biased in this argument.


See the Konohamaru/Hashirama example above.



> I did not add anything. I said he could do all that shit faster than Minato could reach to the other side of his body. That is called deduction bro


Yeah you said he did all that other shit? We don't know because it off paneled. So alluding to other shit like him reacting to the bomb off panel quicker than Minato, is adding shit we did not see.



> So in other words he reached it faster than Minato. That's all. Ain't nobody sitting here and putting Minato down for having used shunshin to attack the Iwa nin before he could react or having used shunshin to escape the exploding fuuda when Tobi attacked Naruto. That shit don't matter bro. We give Minato credit for having the reflexes to react with shunshin. Now all of a sudden you don't want to do the same for Tobirama. Let me guess that's because you are not biased, right?


LOL when was I saying Shunshin doesn't count, it's a speed feat of course. The problem is it doesn't prove Tobirama reacted faster than Minato, it would just mean Tobirama used a Jutsu to increase the speed of his movements, while Minato did not.

I.E. all it would demonstrate is Tobirmaa with Shunshin is faster than Minato just using physical speed, to which it's like no fucking duh he is, that was never in question.



> Cherry picking again?


It would be cherry picking if I was using a Minato appears from off panel to save someone as a reaction feat for Minato, but not for Tobirama. That's cherry picking, but what i'm saying is that in all cases I find the appear from off panel save questionable feats.



> We have a man that Minato said was extremely fast, a man that put two tags on Jyuubito while Minato was unable to put any


Talk about logical fallacies. Tobirama lost half his body to tag Obito Stage 1. Minato was never got a chance to try and to mark Obito Stage 1, because he was unaware his original marker fadded. So why you cite Minato not placing a marker, seems pointless to me. It's not like both Tobirama and Minato attempted it and only Tobirama succeeded.

As for Minato & the bomb, he was up against a more powerful stage 2 Obito, so I don't see how that is applicable to Tobirama's scenario, ether.



> Now that man saves Minato's ass and you sit here and claim that it is not because he is fast.


LOL...when have I ever claimed Tobirama is not fast? I challenge you to find me saying that at any point in our discussion. So that's the real cool story bro, because you just made something up, that never happened. The whole conversation was about reaction speed specifically and your now turning it into a general speed thing.

Nowhere did I say Tobirama isn't fast. Nowhere did I say Tobirama is slower than Minato in anything, but Shunshin (which is a fact). Hell I even said Tobirama might have better reactions than Minato, I just don't feel that the feat your citing is enough to prove that for several reasons. 



> I don't see what is novel about that attack. It is no different than any other hiraishin attack


It's different in the sense that the attack was formed and then teleported into Obito, instead of teleporting and than attack after the teleport.



> Tobirama has outshone Minato in every area of intelligence. He has more knowledge. He has shown better strategies and also better observation skills.


It is way too soon to be making such a claim based on a single instance (last chapter). 



> It comes down to strategy because they are using the same jutsu. The better stratagem in this case is Tobirama, hence why I am leaning towards him


That's not all it comes down to



> That shit won't help because Tobirama knows how the jutsu works. He will know to avoid those kunai. Plus, he can swap places with a clone. Again, this shit comes down to strategy and luck as I said


Having greater mobility with tags isn't going to help, yeah whatever bro.

Minato can also swap with a clone.



> We know he can do it. We don't need to see it to give him credit. I have never seen Itachi copy a jutsu but I know he can. Same shit with Tobirama. He uses his clones for FTG and since he can use TKB, we know he can use multiple clones for FTG. We know he can use at the very least 3 clones + his body (Safe to say he can create way more than 3 clones given the fact that he was disappointed that he was restricted to only 2 clones)


I'm talking a huge number of clones, not just more than 2.


----------



## Doctor Lamperouge (Aug 9, 2013)

I find this notion of Tobirama having superior reactions to Minato to be unfounded. Minato reacted to the juubidama just fine, but he didn't have anywhere safe to warp it since his seal on Obito had disappeared. Tobirama on the other hand had Obito already tagged by then, so he just needed to jump in and send it back to Obito.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 9, 2013)

> =Senjuclan;48111633]The jutsu is the same. The feats are the same. They move through a portal and reappear next to their enemy.


 
Oh really? The Edo is also the same, but that does not mean that oro and kabuto is not better! 
And by feats minato is the fastest character NOT tobirama, unless you can show something else! 




> Tobirama was talking about SHUNSHIN not FTG


And what did tobirama called FTG here, again? 
stay there
Minato is better than tobirama in s/t Jutsus, shunshin and reaction. 




> What does A know about Minato? He did not say there has never been a man faster than me in the history of the shinobi world besides Minato. If we go by this line of thinking that means that Minato is faster than RS. However, we know that is wrong because Jyuubito, a weaker version of RS, is faster than Minato. A was speaking of people he has met not all ninjas before him



Lol, you just try to ignore that he said!! Even though A knows about tobirama as well even 
If it were some knowledge. And who said obito is faster than minato? Yes, it's true he mange
To land a hit, but minato wasn't using his FTG, or is SM Naruto faster than obito because he 
Attacked him while the other was not using his speed! 
stay there





> IF Minato is on your body even a fodder can put a tag on him. If he tries to avoid the tag then he won't apply the seal. Just because someone is fodder does not mean they can't place a tag on someone who is touching them


Lol, please prove that those fodders are fast enough to do that! And why those fodders in the 
3rd War did not do that? 




> 1. Minato cannot summon Ma and Pa until he does. The databook says the number of people who can summon them is very limited. It would not say that if anyone with a contract could summon them
> 2. Apparently you did not read Kakashi gaiden. Minato was attacking people by jumping from kunai to kunai. Here he has to touch the zombies and stay there for a few seconds. That is enough time for him to be tagged.


It's stated in the data book that whoever has a contract with the frogs can summon ANY one of them. 

Oh please! Minato can appeare behind him for example, how would that fodder tag him? 
I honestly feel stipud to debate that some fodder will tag him, lol. Even the fastest man couldn't 
Even touch him! So, yes ill wait for you to bring this fodders feats to prove what you said! 




> So? How does that mean Minato is superior? It only means that Minato is a rare genius. However, Tobirama has him beat on every aspect of genius in this manga.


Simply because jman lived in their area and he thinks no one can be compared to minato! 



> Jutsu creation: Tobirama


Well, minato make the FTG better than tobirama, and he even mange to use level 2 
He creat the s/t barrier which is the greatest defense so far! And his long name jutsu 
...etc! But I'll agree with you here! 



> General Knowledge: Tobirama


Like what? 



> In Battle Strategy: Tobirama


Such as?




> Attention to Details: Tobirama


Lol, just because minato was effective by obitos nonsense that he wasn't focus on the details
Does not prove that tobirama is better. Even naruto noticed that BEFORE tobirama. 




> There is not one aspect of genius you can point that Minato is better at than Tobirama


.

That what YOU think.


----------



## Craziness-8 (Aug 10, 2013)

even now I dont see many difference between Minato and Tobirama
but every chapter , Tobirama show us some thing from his ability
I think at the end he will surpass Minato if this situation continues


----------



## Empathy (Aug 10, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Off-topic: Empathy, your set looks badass, even though Obito is a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".). Cool stuff; I really like the texture of it, especially.



It's more perfect than how I imagine myself in my dreams.


----------



## Veracity (Aug 10, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> I find this notion of Tobirama having superior reactions to Minato to be unfounded. Minato reacted to the juubidama just fine, but he didn't have anywhere safe to warp it since his seal on Obito had disappeared. Tobirama on the other hand had Obito already tagged by then, so he just needed to jump in and send it back to Obito.



Then why did he say he needed to jump with it. And why did he attempt to grab it? 

Why not just run away?


----------



## Doctor Lamperouge (Aug 10, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Then why did he say he needed to jump with it. And why did he attempt to grab it?
> 
> Why not just run away?


He said he needed to jump with it because, as we can see with Tobirama, that's exactly what he needed to do to stop it. He just couldn't do it because he didn't have a tag available to safely send it to. For example, if someone fell off a cliff they could say "I need to fly to survive". That doesn't mean they're capable of flying. 

The fact that he attempted to grab it shows that he did indeed react to it. 

Why not just run away? Oh, I don't know, maybe the fact that it would've exploded and killed Sasuke and Naruto.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 10, 2013)

Gonna have to go with minato. In this battle where the only thing that separate tobirama from minato is gone(edo tensei) so it is basically a FTG battle of who can kill who first. Since minato is the king of speed in this battle with his greater reflexes, movement speed and more versatile ways to set up his FTG he wins high diff only because tobirama is no slouch.


----------



## Empathy (Aug 11, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Viz translates it as LV2. But I honestly it doesn't matter what you call it, there are faster attacks with Hirashin. It's true that FTG is instant, but it only transports you instantly to the marker. The successive attack after teleporting is not instant however and a character can react to it.  However if the attack is formed before the teleport and the user teleports so that the attack lands on the person the moment they appear (or is just about to land) than it's much more difficult if not impossible to react in time to evade. For example:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



To my knowledge, Viz are just translators who release the official say in English. That doesn't mean they inherently and infallibly translate Japanese to flawless English better than anyone else can. I believe it was slienceofthelambs who really brought up a great case for the level two _Hirashin_ mistranslation. I didn't think I would be able to dig it up and would just have to ask for you to trust me on this. But with only a minute or two of google I was actually able to find some stuff! Here are the aforementioned results of a quick google search. [] [] []

I believe he later went on in another case to look up the kanji and compare it's meanings. Truthfully, this is completely trivial terminology I only bring up to make myself seem credible for future reference and to clear up misconception. As for the stuff you referenced it's just standard usage of the technique. You can teleport and then attack or you can teleport the attack seamlessly in; the teleport parts are still the same technique. You can consider them teleporting the attack in or just connecting with it really, really fast and the the movement just not being drawn. It's all inconsequentially the same so long as it covers the scope of really, really fast attack. There is no level two _Hirashin_ is my point.


----------



## Ƶero (Aug 11, 2013)

Tobirama got "killed" twice by a mindless Juubito whereas Minato lost only an arm against a far superior in control juubito. This coupled with Tobirama admitting he is slower should make it clear that Minato wins here.

Also Tobirama is not proven to be more intelligent just because he's shining in the past couple chapters while Minato is distracted and confused about Obito's situation. Minato right now is different from the Minato before the Obito revelation. In the beginning he was extremely sharp and tactile and even Tobirama commented that he is quick to act when he had already set up his tags. Now he's being dragged down by thoughts of guilt and regret which is compromising his usual quick witted nature.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 11, 2013)

Minato is a superior Tobirama.


----------



## joshhookway (Aug 12, 2013)

Tobirama has faster reflexes than Minato, better intelligence and is a better sensor. If Tobirama tags Minato, Minato is blown to pieces. If Minato tags Tobirama, Tobirama can react to Minato's attack.


----------



## Rocky (Aug 12, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Tobirama has faster reflexes than Minato.



Yeah and Bee has faster reflexes than RnY Raikage, right?


----------



## Veracity (Aug 12, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> He said he needed to jump with it because, as we can see with Tobirama, that's exactly what he needed to do to stop it. He just couldn't do it because he didn't have a tag available to safely send it to. For example, if someone fell off a cliff they could say "I need to fly to survive". That doesn't mean they're capable of flying.
> 
> The fact that he attempted to grab it shows that he did indeed react to it.
> 
> Why not just run away? Oh, I don't know, maybe the fact that it would've exploded and killed Sasuke and Naruto.



What? He still attempted to grab the orb. What's the point of that? To sit there and watch himself explode cause he has nowhere to jump?

And I dont recall him actually touching the orb, just slowly reaching for it, and getting outsped by Tobirama.

And that's freaking retarded. Kishi just wasted his time having Minato say that.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 12, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Tobirama has faster reflexes than Minato, better intelligence and is a better sensor. If Tobirama tags Minato, Minato is blown to pieces. If Minato tags Tobirama, Tobirama can react to Minato's attack.


----------



## Rocky (Aug 12, 2013)

When someone reacts to an attack that wasn't directed at them before the actual target of the attack reacts, it doesn't mean the former has superior reflexes.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 12, 2013)

Minato's FTG > Tobirama's FTG
and Minato does have level 2 and it SEEMS that he does have level 3 
with his unknown jutsu

Minato's S/T barrier >>>>>>>>>>>> Tobirama's water barrier 

Minato's base speed >>> Tobirama's base speed. 

Rasengan >> Water Dragon 

contract seal > edo 
unknown uzumaki's sealing jutsu >  unknown edo fodders

Clones and the 4 suns barrier, finger sensing ability
are the same

Minato does still have SF, frogs summons, 4 & 8 seals and his unknown jutsu!

Tobirama more likely has more chakra (although he has no feats) and stronger body
but that irrelevant since Minato had fought A & B at the same time and both have stronger bodys, chakra
and better tai-jutsu. 

that's why I see base Minato stronger than Tobirama, and if I included his KCM there will be a gap
between them!


----------



## Dominus (Aug 12, 2013)

Without Edo Tensei and since we don't know how powerful Tobirama's water techniques are at full power, Minato takes this. He won't beat Tobirama without breaking a sweat, but somebody should make this thread again when they show us all of their feats (Minato's new Hiraishin technique, Tobirama's water techniques and who knows what other techniques they have).


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Aug 12, 2013)

Tobirama somehow blitzing Minato is biggest desperate attempt to hand Tobirama some more feats, and I'll tell ya, it's a joke. First of all, Tobirama hadn't made an appearance in the entire chapter prior to that, so we dont know exactly how much time he had to cover the ground until he reached Minato. Another point is, we don't know how far away from each other they were when Tobirama approached Minato. So without knowing these two factors, you can forget it, lool. Minato's already blitzed Tobirama to the battlefield, so stop.


----------



## Senjuclan (Aug 12, 2013)

Turrin said:


> And I explained why your wrong, something you choose to ignore & simply repeat yourself.



You did not and you are confused. Not my fault



Turrin said:


> I believe it could be true, but I also believe ti could be wrong.



I believe it could be true that Minato is a dog but you don't see me arguing that point, do you. Argue that points you can substantiate. Just throwing out garbage and claiming it could be true does not advance debates



Turrin said:


> That's not an author describing events, nor even a character, like you suggested. As for needing more I stated in the rest of my post why I need more than that, due to it's off panel nature.



It's the author drawing panels to 12 year olds to understand. I am surprised you can't



Turrin said:


> So as long as someone doesn't say a character is stronger than thee other they can't be bias? So someone would not be bias against Hashirama or for Konohamaru, as long as they said Konohamaru is just a tad bit weaker than SM Hashirama. That's not how bias works.



Problem is you have not shown a hint of bias in my statement. My statements are objective. Tobirama is shown that he is weaker than KCM Minato but could well contend with Minato depending on who he edo tenseis. Objective 



Turrin said:


> The people who would think i'm biased towards Minato are strictly the people who think anyone who defends Minato is biased for Minato; namely trolls. What's funny is that I was one of the first people to make a thread when the Hokages reappeared in the manga that Tobirama could be stronger than Minato, & everybody was saying I was a crazy Tobirama-Fanboy, but now that I defend Minato i'm a Minato-fanboy whose biased against Tobirama lol.



You are a known Minato fanboy on this forum. Everybody also knows that you like to write long essays with nonsensical hypotheses just because you believe in taking any and all positions and then when one of them turns out right, you claim that have been right regardless of the fact that you also held the opposite position. 



Turrin said:


> In reality I think Minato is an average to poorly written character, but he is still immensely strong/skilled. I'm sorry that I do not find it as cut an dry as you do that one of your fav characters is better than Minato in one of Minato's best & most hype areas which he just recieved a large boost to with KCM, based on a partly off paneled feat.



Whether he is my fav or not is irrelevant. The question is whether he reacted faster than Minato. HE DID



Turrin said:


> But do you know how many of my fav characters are not just far more inferior to Minato in one of his best areas, but outright overall inferior to Minato even before KCM, the answer is pretty much all of them with Tobirama being the one possible exception, & Prime Hanzo being the very unlikely other exception. So suck it up, instead of whining about someone who doesn't even like Minato being bias towards him.



1. The issue at hand is whether TObirama reacted faster. You are trying to obfuscate it by bringing up the fact that I like the Senju brothers because  you know you don't have a valid argument
2. You are a known Minato fanboy. You may not be a fan of his character but you are a fan of his perceived power



Turrin said:


> See the Konohamaru/Hashirama example above.



Stop with these comparisons. Tobirama is a hokage whose jutsu Minato saw fit to steal to make his own. We are not comparing Hashirama/Konohamaru. 



Turrin said:


> Yeah you said he did all that other shit? We don't know because it off paneled. So alluding to other shit like him reacting to the bomb off panel quicker than Minato, is adding shit we did not see.



I guess 1+1 is no longer two, right? 

We know the progression of events, so we can deduce that he reacted faster. If a character is one pretzel and was given another pretzel off-panel and we know that he did not eat any pretzels off-panel and we finally see them with two pretzels, an intelligent person concludes that he was given one more pretzel. I don't need the author to show me that one pretzel for me to know that. 



Turrin said:


> LOL when was I saying Shunshin doesn't count, it's a speed feat of course. The problem is it doesn't prove Tobirama reacted faster than Minato, it would just mean Tobirama used a Jutsu to increase the speed of his movements, while Minato did not.



So, he reacted faster. Nothing stopped Minato from using shunshin as well



Turrin said:


> I.E. all it would demonstrate is Tobirmaa with Shunshin is faster than Minato just using physical speed, to which it's like no fucking duh he is, that was never in question.



Nah more like Tobirama can react faster than Minato and use shunshin 

YOu know Minato's vaunted reaction speed is based on his ability to activate shunshin super fast. Well, guess what Holmes, that's the same shit Tobirama did and now you pretend we should not count it for Tobirama 



Turrin said:


> It would be cherry picking if I was using a Minato appears from off panel to save someone as a reaction feat for Minato, but not for Tobirama. That's cherry picking, but what i'm saying is that in all cases I find the appear from off panel save questionable feats.



What is there to question? Tobirama appeared to save Minato's ass. There is nothing questionable



Turrin said:


> Talk about logical fallacies. Tobirama lost half his body to tag Obito Stage 1. Minato was never got a chance to try and to mark Obito Stage 1, because he was unaware his original marker fadded. So why you cite Minato not placing a marker, seems pointless to me. It's not like both Tobirama and Minato attempted it and only Tobirama succeeded.



You know Minato tangled with Jyuubito and lost his arm. He did not place a marker then



Turrin said:


> As for Minato & the bomb, he was up against a more powerful stage 2 Obito, so I don't see how that is applicable to Tobirama's scenario, ether.



More powerful=faster? 

Speed is very limited once you move at an insane level. Jyuubito increase in power is related to his control over yin and yang release. There is nothing to suggest that his speed increased. 



Turrin said:


> LOL...when have I ever claimed Tobirama is not fast? I challenge you to find me saying that at any point in our discussion. So that's the real cool story bro, because you just made something up, that never happened. The whole conversation was about reaction speed specifically and your now turning it into a general speed thing.



In case you did not know to be fast is to move at high speed and that requires both high speed and superior reactions. 



Turrin said:


> Nowhere did I say Tobirama isn't fast. Nowhere did I say Tobirama is slower than Minato in anything, but Shunshin (which is a fact). Hell I even said Tobirama might have better reactions than Minato, I just don't feel that the feat your citing is enough to prove that for several reasons.



Let me guess the reason because you are butthurt? Or maybe because deduction is a foreign concept to you. You choose which reason you prefer



Turrin said:


> It's different in the sense that the attack was formed and then teleported into Obito, instead of teleporting and than attack after the teleport.



In other words the same all shit. It's no different than holding a kunai and using it when you reappear. Same shit



Turrin said:


> It is way too soon to be making such a claim based on a single instance (last chapter).



I guess you did not read the chapter before last. Tobirama is the one who came up with the strategy to hit Jyuubito as well.



Turrin said:


> That's not all it comes down to
> 
> Having greater mobility with tags isn't going to help, yeah whatever bro.
> 
> Minato can also swap with a clone.



So, in other words it is coming down to strategy. Minato has no more mobility than Tobirama does. Tobirama can put tags on whatever he chooses as well to negate Minato's advantage



Turrin said:


> I'm talking a huge number of clones, not just more than 2.



He can use many more clones than 2. So, case closed. He can put tags on the floor, On trees + clones. Once again, this shit comes down to strategy


----------



## Senjuclan (Aug 12, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Oh really? The Edo is also the same, but that does not mean that oro and kabuto is not better!



Except in the case of FTG Minato is not better. If he is, show me in what respect



TorJaN said:


> And by feats minato is the fastest character NOT tobirama, unless you can show something else!



Minato is the fastest with SHUNSHIN not FTG



TorJaN said:


> And what did tobirama called FTG here, again?
> stronger
> Minato is better than tobirama in s/t Jutsus, shunshin and reaction.



Kishi uses the two interchangeably. However, when Tobirama said that Minato was faster he was referring to body flicker no jutsu not space-time no jutsu. We know this because they did not use markers to get to the battlefield. They used their own speed hence why Sasuke was lagging behind

So, again you have proven that Minato has the faster shunshin but not the better FTG



TorJaN said:


> Lol, you just try to ignore that he said!! Even though A knows about tobirama as well even
> If it were some knowledge. And who said obito is faster than minato? Yes, it's true he mange
> To land a hit, but minato wasn't using his FTG



1. A does not apply to people he did not know. We know that did not know much about Madara. It would be foolish to assume he knew much about Tobirama
2. Space-time manipulation is not speed. FAST is defined as moving at high SPEED!!!!! When Minato is using FTG is not moving with rapidity of movement, which is what speed is. 
3. Jyuubito is faster because he can move at a higher rate than Minato



TorJaN said:


> , or is SM Naruto faster than obito because he
> Attacked him while the other was not using his speed!
> stronger



I am not sure what this is since you attached Bijuu Mode Naruto fighting A but your comments refer to SM Naruto attacking Obito



TorJaN said:


> Lol, please prove that those fodders are fast enough to do that! And why those fodders in the
> 3rd War did not do that?



1. Prove that those fodders are not fast enough to do that
2. Because Minato was not touching them and staying close to their bodies for long seconds. You are comparing apples and oranges. In this case, Minato has to be close and stay close to them, which was not the case during the great shinobi war



TorJaN said:


> It's stated in the data book that whoever has a contract with the frogs can summon ANY one of them.



It is shown in the manga that this is not true. Naruto had to use the kyuubi chakra to summon Gamabunta for example. The databook says that the number of people who can summon Ma and Pa is limited. 



TorJaN said:


> Oh please! Minato can appeare behind him for example, how would that fodder tag him?



Has anyone ever been behind you for a few seconds? If yes, then you have your answer



TorJaN said:


> I honestly feel stipud to debate that some fodder will tag him, lol. Even the fastest man couldn't
> Even touch him! So, yes ill wait for you to bring this fodders feats to prove what you said!



You should feel stipud regardless 

You are comparing apples and oranges again. Minato was avoiding A but in this case, he has to touch them and stay there for a while. When he is not avoiding people, Minato is not untouchable. Kirabi was able to put a sword to his gut before he noticed. Minato will be tagged and his ass bombed if he tried to apply the contract seal



TorJaN said:


> Simply because jman lived in their area and he thinks no one can be compared to minato!



1. Which area is that by the way?
2. Jiraiya also lived in the era, not area, of Hanzou and thought no one could defeat him one on one. Does that mean Minato could not defeat Hanzou one on one?



TorJaN said:


> Well, minato make the FTG better than tobirama, and he even mange to use level 2
> He creat the s/t barrier which is the greatest defense so far! And his long name jutsu
> ...etc! But I'll agree with you here!



So moving on



TorJaN said:


> Like what?



Knowledge about the Rikudou Sennin. Knowledge about the sharingan. Tobirama has shown more than Minato



TorJaN said:


> Such as?



Such as coming up with a plan to land an attack on Tobirama and telling Minato how it should be executed. 



TorJaN said:


> Lol, just because minato was effective by obitos nonsense that he wasn't focus on the details
> Does not prove that tobirama is better. Even naruto noticed that BEFORE tobirama.



1. Don't mean to insult you but is English your second language? Some of the things you say are hard to understand. Did you mean Minato was AFFECTED and not EFFECTIVE? I really don't mean to insult just want to make sure
2. We are not discussing Naruto and Tobirama but Minato and Tobirama
3. Minato was not even talking when Gamakichi attacked. He started talking here



TorJaN said:


> That what YOU think.



Of course it is what I think hence why I wrote it. Go ahead and write what YOU think that contradicts what I just said


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 12, 2013)

Ninjutsu: Tobirama
Taijutsu: Unknown
Genutsu: Unknown
Intelligence: Tobirama
Speed: Minato
Seal: Tobirama
Strength: Tobirama
Kenjutsu: Tobirama


----------



## Turrin (Aug 12, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> You did not and you are confused. Not my fault


Reflexes - "an action that is performed without conscious thought as a response to a stimulus"

Again if Tobirama senses something and reacts due to what he sensed, that is with conscious thought and therefore not entirely due to Tobirama's reflexes. So if Tobirama's reaction time is better, it does not necessarily mean his reflexes are better.



> I believe it could be true that Minato is a dog but you don't see me arguing that point, do you. Argue that points you can substantiate. Just throwing out garbage and claiming it could be true does not advance debates


But you don't believe Minato is a dog so that's just a ridiculous example. What I suggested to you was an actually possible thought on how events went down. I'll grant you that in a formal debate it's not the best counter point, but than again I wasn't treating to engage you in a formal debate at the time I made the comment, I was just trying to bring up another possibility for discussion. 



> It's the author drawing panels to 12 year olds to understand. I am surprised you can't


For the third time the author did not draw any panels of Tobirama reacting before Minato. No amount of childish insults will change that.



> Problem is you have not shown a hint of bias in my statement. My statements are objective. Tobirama is shown that he is weaker than KCM Minato but could well contend with Minato depending on who he edo tenseis. Objective


Once again your the one who started with the accusations of bias, not me. All I said was the Senju-Fan defending a Senju is more likely to bring bias and personal feelings into this discussion, than someone like me whose defending a character he doesn't like (Minato) over a character he does like (Tobirama).



> You are a known Minato fanboy on this forum. .


This is all BS you made up in your head. Yes I tend to defend Minato, because unfortunately there are more threads pitting Minato against characters weaker than him (namely Itachi), than characters who could be stronger than him; you also tend to see a-lot more shit like Itachi w/o MS vs Minato, than Minato w/o FTG vs Hashirama to give an example. Additionally I don't go around making fan-boy threads, like the Minato equivalent of something like Itachi w/o MS vs all 3 Sannin. So what makes you think I'm a fan-boy, other than it being beneficial to position your taking with your argument.



> Everybody also knows that you like to write long essays with nonsensical hypotheses just because you believe in taking any and all positions and then when one of them turns out right, you claim that have been right regardless of the fact that you also held the opposite position


If your referring to theories, yes I like to throw out a-lot of different hypothesis for major mysteries in the manga and I don't see anything wrong with having multiple ideas for the answer to a certain mystery. But no I don't take the opposite position of one of my hypothesis, that too is BS you made up in your head.



> Whether he is my fav or not is irrelevant.


I find it funny that when the subject of bias is direct towards you, it's suddenly irrelevant to the topic, despite the fact that you are the one who brought it up in the first place.



> The issue at hand is whether TObirama reacted faster. You are trying to obfuscate it by bringing up the fact that I like the Senju brothers because you know you don't have a valid argument


Your the one who brought up the subject of bias in the first place so if anyone was attempting to obfuscate the discussion in lieu of a valid argument, it's you.



> You are a known Minato fanboy. You may not be a fan of his character but you are a fan of his perceived power


What do you even mean by "perceived power", perceived by who the forums, Minato-fans, who?

As for being a fan of power, I just got done telling you that most of my favorite characters, except Tobirama, are not even in Minato's league (or a number of higher level characters for that matter), so I care very little about power when it comes to my favorite characters, & the little I care simply has to do with the fact that if their abilities are stronger they might get a bit more screen/panel time in the manga/anime.

Heck Zetsu is one of my favorite characters and he got fodderized by Chojiro. Power-Fanboys are people who are simply fans of the strongest characters around, someone whose a Hashirama Fanboy fits that bill a-lot more than myself.



> Stop with these comparisons. Tobirama is a hokage whose jutsu Minato saw fit to steal to make his own. We are not comparing Hashirama/Konohamaru.


Yes my example was extreme, but it's still a completely valid way to address your point. You were saying someone who admitted a character is weaker than another, can't be bias, but I just showed you can example where that is the case.



> We know the progression of events, *so we can deduce* that he reacted faster. If a character is one pretzel and was given another pretzel off-panel and we know that he did not eat any pretzels off-panel and we finally see them with two pretzels, an intelligent person concludes that he was given one more pretzel. I don't need the author to show me that one pretzel for me to know that.


The problem is you can't deduce Tobirama reacted faster as a certainty. Like I said he could have reacted later than Minato, but simply arrived first due to using Shunshin, while Minato did not.



> So, he reacted faster. Nothing stopped Minato from using shunshin as well


No he decided to use Shunshin while Minato did not. Why Minato did not use Shushin, who the hell knows. There's a-lot of times where I wonder why a certain shinobi does not use a certain technique in the manga. 



> YOu know Minato's vaunted reaction speed is based on his ability to activate shunshin super fast. Well, guess what Holmes, that's the same shit Tobirama did and now you pretend we should not count it for Tobirama


Lol when did i say we should not count it for Tobirama? You keep making shit up and confusing the point. The point isn't that Tobirama is slow. The point is whether Tobirama intercepting the bomb proves his reaction time is faster than Minato's, to which I say this feat by itself is too ambiguous to prove Tobirama's reaction time is faster than Minato's due to it's off-panel nature.



> What is there to question? Tobirama appeared to save Minato's ass. There is nothing questionable


Did Tobirama actually react faster than Minato to the bomb or did he simply use Shunshin, while Minato did not.



> You know Minato tangled with Jyuubito and lost his arm. He did not place a marker then


It was not the same Obito that Tobirama faced & Minato wasn't trying to place a FTG marker on Obito in that instance, rather he was trying to use Spiral Flash Dance, so the situations are not applicable. 



> More powerful=faster?
> 
> Speed is very limited once you move at an insane level. Jyuubito increase in power is related to his control over yin and yang release. There is nothing to suggest that his speed increased.


We don't know if his speed increased or not, but his intelligence is much higher and his Yin/Yang can now permanently damage the Edo Tensei as it could not in previous stages as well as be used in much more clever ways like attaching the Yin/Yang Bomb to summon one.

For example if Tobirama faced this Obito, maybe he'd tag him, but half his body would have been gone permanently and Obito would have probably stuck a black bomb on him on top of that. And with the bomb stuck on him and half his body missing, unlike in the other scenario he couldn't create a clone to simply teleport away with it, he'd have to teleport away himself and than thats GG. So I don't see him doing any better than Minato against Stage 2 Obito.



> In case you did not know to be fast is to move at high speed and that requires both high speed and superior reactions.


Sure, but you can be tremendously fast, while not having better reaction time than Minato. Minato was the fastest man alive according to Yondaime Raikage and Minato doesn't have reaction time faster than himself for instance LOL. So me saying i'm unsure if Tobirama has better reaction time than Minato, does not equal me claiming he's not fast, as you tried to claim.



> Let me guess


I already gave you the reason. I don't trust the feat entire due to it's off panel nature. I have many reasons to doubt off panel-saving feats like these. For instance if we took off panel-save scenes as literally speed/reaction feats, we'd have to conclude Sai is as fast or faster as Sasuke due to him intercepting Sasuke here:
Link removed

However from the DB (& common sense) we know that Sasuke was much faster than Sai. In the same fight we have another instance of this where Yamato moves between Sasuke's attack and Sakura, again if we took off panel-save scenes as literally speed/reaction feat, than we'd have to assume Yamato is as fast or faster than Sasuke, however the DB (& common sense), once again tell us that is not the case. There are tons of these examples throughout the manga.



> In other words the same all shit. It's no different than holding a kunai and using it when you reappear. Same shit


It's not the same. Attacking after you teleport gives the enemy time to react to that attack. Teleporting an attack directly into the enemy, does not give the enemy time to react.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 12, 2013)

> I guess you did not read the chapter before last. Tobirama is the one who came up with the strategy to hit Jyuubito as well.


Minato was thinking his own strategy, but Sasuke/Naruto ruined it. Tobirama than suggested his strategy, which Minato than agreed with. 

Although the scene itself is a bit confusing to me because I can't tell for sure if RasenFlashDance is really just Minato's ridiculous name for Mawashi, & Minato was planning to use clones, but than Tobirama said it would be faster if they did it themselves. 

Ether way I don't see Tobirama setting himself apart from Minato as a better strategist that chapter, just proving that he is a quite capable one in his own right.



> So, in other words it is coming down to strategy. Minato has no more mobility than Tobirama does. Tobirama can put tags on whatever he chooses as well to negate Minato's advantage


This is just stupid. Minato can spread out 32+ makers in the time it takes Tobirama to create 1 marker, and in a battle where the winner will be decide by who gets a marker close enough to the other one first & your arguing this doesn't matter.



> He can use many more clones than 2. So, case closed. He can put tags on the floor, On trees + clones. Once again, this shit comes down to strategy


Unless Tobirama can make 32+ Clones at one time, which he doesn't have anywhere close to the feats for at this moment, than Minato can spread out a-lot more markers than Tobirama can in a single instance. Strategy is important, but the efficiency at which the two can spread their markers is more important.


----------



## Dragon Sage Ash (Aug 12, 2013)

Mio said:


> I looked around and this wasn't made. Hope I wasn't wrong.
> 
> *Knowledge*: Manga
> *Restrictions*: Kyūbi Chakra, Edo Tensei & Shiki Fūjin. They're both living and not Edo Tensei.
> ...



even with his level of edo tensai that brings back low level random Ninja that are just immortal, Mianto still takes him because minato can reverse summon tobirama away form his Edo's, thus los their assistance, how little it is...

Coupled with Minato's physical speed/reflexes way beyond Tobirama's makes it so he can easily blitz Tobirama even though he has the FTG level 1.
Without the same level of physical speed/reflexes as minato, tobirama could never compete with minato, FACT!!!

: Water Jutsu...
: Explosive tag Jutsu...
: Low level edo/s..

All are not going to even touch Minato while stop Minato from blitzing the shitt out of tobirama easily...

Minato WINS, without a doubt...

@Turrin:
there is no need to argue with Senjuclan. The guy is clearly some 11 year old in Boston with a serious lack of accurate interpretation not completely overshadowed by pure BIAS. So Much so he would even suggest much less argue that tobirama's physical speed/reflexes=Minato's despite it already being made clear that base minato's physical speed/reflexes are way beyond tobirama's to the point Tobirama admitted it himself and even able to think on his feet better then tobirama, thus he admitting it himself again.

Shown here:

Somehow tobirama grabbing a bijuudama at the same time a one armed Minato who was just injured can, with the opposite arm, thus having to cover more distance. Somehow makes makes tobirama's reflexes/physical speed=to minato's... That is the reason not to argue with the guy...


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 12, 2013)

"stop Minato from blitzing the shitt out of tobirama easily"

So now Minato >>>>>>>> Tobirama in speed and reactions huh.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 12, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Ninjutsu: Tobirama
> Taijutsu: Unknown
> Genutsu: Unknown
> Intelligence: Tobirama
> ...


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 12, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> "stop Minato from blitzing the shitt out of tobirama easily"
> 
> So now Minato >>>>>>>> Tobirama in speed and reactions huh.



Well that is sort of an exaggeration. I'd say Minato>>Tobirama(maybe i should add a extra ">" to that) when it comes to speed and reactions because tobirama's feats in the speed department do not really stack up to minato's. Minato however can blitz tobirama with his superior usage of FTG imo.

In this match speed is king so i guess minato takes it eh?


----------



## Senjuclan (Aug 12, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Reflexes - "an action that is performed without conscious thought as a response to a stimulus"
> 
> Again if Tobirama senses something and reacts due to what he sensed, that is with conscious thought and therefore not entirely due to Tobirama's reflexes. So if Tobirama's reaction time is better, it does not necessarily mean his reflexes are better.



Let's see when A moved faster than amaterasu was that reflex or not? Because there it was in response to a visual stimulus. Give me an example of Minato moving without conscious thought



Turrin said:


> But you don't believe Minato is a dog so that's just a ridiculous example. What I suggested to you was an actually possible thought on how events went down. I'll grant you that in a formal debate it's not the best counter point, but than again I wasn't treating to engage you in a formal debate at the time I made the comment, I was just trying to bring up another possibility for discussion.



My point remains if you are not prepared to defend a statement, don't make it



Turrin said:


> For the third time the author did not draw any panels of Tobirama reacting before Minato. No amount of childish insults will change that.



For the third time, trying to act like we can't deduce that Tobirama reacted faster will not change the fact that he did



Turrin said:


> Once again your the one who started with the accusations of bias, not me. All I said was the Senju-Fan defending a Senju is more likely to bring bias and personal feelings into this discussion, than someone like me whose defending a character he doesn't like (Minato) over a character he does like (Tobirama).



You are a known Minato fanboy. That's an established fact



Turrin said:


> This is all BS you made up in your head. Yes I tend to defend Minato, because unfortunately there are more threads pitting Minato against characters weaker than him (namely Itachi), than characters who could be stronger than him; you also tend to see a-lot more shit like Itachi w/o MS vs Minato, than Minato w/o FTG vs Hashirama to give an example. Additionally I don't go around making fan-boy threads, like the Minato equivalent of something like Itachi w/o MS vs all 3 Sannin. So what makes you think I'm a fan-boy, other than it being beneficial to position your taking with your argument.



Jeez I am the first person to say that you are a Minato fanboy, right? Apparently, everyone here knows that except you



Turrin said:


> If your referring to theories, yes I like to throw out a-lot of different hypothesis for major mysteries in the manga and I don't see anything wrong with having multiple ideas for the answer to a certain mystery. But no I don't take the opposite position of one of my hypothesis, that too is BS you made up in your head.



For every thread you ever made where you took a position, there is another where you take the opposite position. Check your threads history



Turrin said:


> I find it funny that when the subject of bias is direct towards you, it's suddenly irrelevant to the topic, despite the fact that you are the one who brought it up in the first place.



I have an avowed bias towards the Senju brothers. Unlike you I don't hide it. However, my bias does not cloud my judgement



Turrin said:


> Your the one who brought up the subject of bias in the first place so if anyone was attempting to obfuscate the discussion in lieu of a valid argument, it's you.



Funny how I have stayed on topic



Turrin said:


> What do you even mean by "perceived power", perceived by who the forums, Minato-fans, who?



Perceived by you and your lot



Turrin said:


> As for being a fan of power, I just got done telling you that most of my favorite characters, except Tobirama, are not even in Minato's league (or a number of higher level characters for that matter), so I care very little about power when it comes to my favorite characters, & the little I care simply has to do with the fact that if their abilities are stronger they might get a bit more screen/panel time in the manga/anime.
> 
> Heck Zetsu is one of my favorite characters and he got fodderized by Chojiro. Power-Fanboys are people who are simply fans of the strongest characters around, someone whose a Hashirama Fanboy fits that bill a-lot more than myself.



I think the guy making illogical excuses for a character is generally known as a fanboy. I have NEVER made illogical excuses for either of the Senju brothers. NEVER



Turrin said:


> Yes my example was extreme, but it's still a completely valid way to address your point. You were saying someone who admitted a character is weaker than another, can't be bias, but I just showed you can example where that is the case.



Apples and oranges. In my case the characters are close in power so bias can only be with regards to other criteria not power



Turrin said:


> The problem is you can't deduce Tobirama reacted faster as a certainty. Like I said he could have reacted later than Minato, but simply arrived first due to using Shunshin, while Minato did not.



Nothing stopped Minato from using shunshin. You say Minato is the fastest man but yet he uses shunshin to blitz people who are not. You don't discount those feats do you? 



Turrin said:


> No he decided to use Shunshin while Minato did not. Why Minato did not use Shushin, who the hell knows. There's a-lot of times where I wonder why a certain shinobi does not use a certain technique in the manga.



Fine. Let's go there show me an example of Minato's superior speed or reaction time that does not involve shunshin



Turrin said:


> Lol when did i say we should not count it for Tobirama? You keep making shit up and confusing the point. The point isn't that Tobirama is slow. The point is whether Tobirama intercepting the bomb proves his reaction time is faster than Minato's, to which I say this feat by itself is too ambiguous to prove Tobirama's reaction time is faster than Minato's due to it's off-panel nature.



Let's play your game. Give me proof that Minato has superior reaction time to anyone



Turrin said:


> Did Tobirama actually react faster than Minato to the bomb or did he simply use Shunshin, while Minato did not.



To react = to respond to something. If Tobirama respond(s) to a bomb(=something), then he is reacting. IF he responds to the bomb faster than Minato, then he is reacting faster than Minato. 



Turrin said:


> It was not the same Obito that Tobirama faced & Minato wasn't trying to place a FTG marker on Obito in that instance, rather he was trying to use Spiral Flash Dance, so the situations are not applicable.



Show me proof that Tobirama WAS TRYING to place tags on Obito. He was not. He simply responded to something = reacted



Turrin said:


> We don't know if his speed increased or not, but his intelligence is much higher and his Yin/Yang can now permanently damage the Edo Tensei as it could not in previous stages as well as be used in much more clever ways like attaching the Yin/Yang Bomb to summon one.



So, that makes your previous claim a moot point



Turrin said:


> For example if Tobirama faced this Obito, maybe he'd tag him, but half his body would have been gone permanently and Obito would have probably stuck a black bomb on him on top of that. And with the bomb stuck on him and half his body missing, unlike in the other scenario he couldn't create a clone to simply teleport away with it, he'd have to teleport away himself and than thats GG. So I don't see him doing any better than Minato against Stage 2 Obito.



Irrelevant to the current argument. The issue is not what would have happened under the scenario you presented. The issue is that Tobirama reacted to Obito's blitz more successfully than Minato did



Turrin said:


> Sure, but you can be tremendously fast, while not having better reaction time than Minato. Minato was the fastest man alive according to Yondaime Raikage and Minato doesn't have reaction time faster than himself for instance LOL.



I am not even sure what this means. Are you comparing Minato to himself? 



Turrin said:


> So me saying i'm unsure if Tobirama has better reaction time than Minato, does not equal me claiming he's not fast, as you tried to claim.



What it means is that you ignore evidence that does not suit your agenda



Turrin said:


> I already gave you the reason. I don't trust the feat entire due to it's off panel nature. I have many reasons to doubt off panel-saving feats like these. For instance if we took off panel-save scenes as literally speed/reaction feats, we'd have to conclude Sai is as fast or faster as Sasuke due to him intercepting Sasuke here:
> Kabuto



No we would correctly assume that Sai's ability to leap to where Sasuke was is faster than Sasuke's speed to impale Naruto. Sasuke and Sai were not targeting the same thing, so we can't compare them but compare their actions only



Turrin said:


> However from the DB (& common sense) we know that Sasuke was much faster than Sai. In the same fight we have another instance of this where Yamato moves between Sasuke's attack and Sakura, again if we took off panel-save scenes as literally speed/reaction feat, than we'd have to assume Yamato is as fast or faster than Sasuke, however the DB (& common sense), once again tell us that is not the case. There are tons of these examples throughout the manga.



Apples and oranges. They are not trying to achieve the same thing. That's why we don't compare two people's strength based on them lifting different weights



Turrin said:


> It's not the same. Attacking after you teleport gives the enemy time to react to that attack. Teleporting an attack directly into the enemy, does not give the enemy time to react.



Except that the difference exists only in your head. Minato appears with a kunai ready to impale in the enemy or a chakra-based attack



Turrin said:


> Minato was thinking his own strategy, but Sasuke/Naruto ruined it. Tobirama than suggested his strategy, which Minato than agreed with.



We know what Minato strategy is. He tried and failed to complete it. His strategy was to use RasenFlashDance to create an opening for Naruto and Sasuke to attack. When he attempted it, he failed



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> there is no need to argue with Senjuclan. The guy is clearly some 11 year old in Boston with a serious lack of accurate interpretation not completely overshadowed by pure BIAS.


 
Behave or you will be banned again


----------



## Senjuclan (Aug 12, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Although the scene itself is a bit confusing to me because I can't tell for sure if RasenFlashDance is really just Minato's ridiculous name for Mawashi, & Minato was planning to use clones, but than Tobirama said it would be faster if they did it themselves.



It is confusing you but not the rest of the forum



Turrin said:


> Ether way I don't see Tobirama setting himself apart from Minato as a better strategist that chapter, just proving that he is a quite capable one in his own right.



When taken together with the current chapter, one cannot escape the conclusion




Turrin said:


> This is just stupid. Minato can spread out 32+ makers in the time it takes Tobirama to create 1 marker, and in a battle where the winner will be decide by who gets a marker close enough to the other one first & your arguing this doesn't matter.



Who cares how fast he can spread the markers. He won't teleport to all of them at the same time



Turrin said:


> Unless Tobirama can make 32+ Clones at one time, which he doesn't have anywhere close to the feats for at this moment, than Minato can spread out a-lot more markers than Tobirama can in a single instance. Strategy is important, but the efficiency at which the two can spread their markers is more important.



Why does he need to be limited to clones, He can make 3 clones and have each of them touch 10 spots on the ground, on trees, etc. 

Point is that strategy determines the fight. Quality > Quantity


----------



## Dragon Sage Ash (Aug 13, 2013)

Senjuclan;48139621
Behave or you will be banned again :zaru[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> I think you will be the next to get banned, not me. And the mod who was stupid enough to do it without a reason is close to getting banned herself so try me... Mods know you cannot ban people without a reason without getting in trouble yourself...
> 
> Back on topic:
> Well, you have evidence of tobirama>Minato while their is loads of evidence that minato>tobirama...
> ...


----------



## Senjuclan (Aug 13, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> I think you will be the next to get banned, not me. And the mod who was stupid enough to do it without a reason is close to getting banned herself so try me... Mods know you cannot ban people without a reason without getting in trouble yourself...



I am trembling in my boots 



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Back on topic:
> Well, you have evidence of tobirama>Minato while their is loads of evidence that minato>tobirama...
> 
> FEATS; Minato can take on full zetsu body suit enhanced Obito+Kyuubi and win quite easily, only dying becuase he felt like it LMAO...
> While tobirama almost died against Kina dn Gin with the 2nd raikage's help then did die against the KIN squad with 20 fodder ninja and KIN which is pathetic.



What's this got to do with the OP?



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Against Imperfect Juubito, Tobirama got one shoted just to land a single tag, thus would have died. Meanwhile minato an his close easily blocked the same level of speed that one shoted tobirama and did not even need the FTG.
> 
> Against fully transformed Juubito; Minato lost an arm while holding back, emotionally distraught and caught off guard against a much faster version of Juubito that one shoted tobirama.
> Meanwhile tobirama has yet to even be attacked at all...



Your point is? And how does that point relate to the OP?



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Speed feats: Minato easily beat all the other kage including tobirama by 30 second to the battle field even though they left at the same time with just his physical shushin.
> And has dodged the raikage's full speed attack easily, twice, able to counter attack him so fast it made the raikage look like he was standing still...
> And tobirama has NO speed feats!!!



What is your point Captain Obvious?



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Intelligence: Minato set up the negating of the Juubidama, protecting naruto and setting up the red sun barrier in one move while tobirama has... Uuum... Nothing intelligent beyond common sense...



What does the "negating of the bijuudama and setting up the red sun barrier" got to do with intelligence? Do you know the meaning of the word?



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Ninjutsu feats: Tobirama created the FTG and eod tensai, but was too unskilled to perfect them to the same level as Minato and Oro... Thus Minato obviously has greater ninjutsu skill as well...



That is asinine. Whether or not Minato improved FTG does not mean he is more skilled in ninjutsu, it would simply mean he improved FTG. That's like saying that anyone who improves Eistein's theories is smarter than him



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Genjutsu: Tobirama has nothing while Minato can summon the sage frogs and use frog song which is the best Genjutsu in the narutoverse next to Itachi's tsukuyomi... But not quite Kotoamatsukami obviously..



Proof Minato can summon him?



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Taijutsu: Minato's is way beyond tobirama's with his superior speed/reflexes, FTG and Kunai skills... SO minato's is obviously way better..



None of the things you mentioned have anything to do with taijutsu except speed



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> All in all CONCLUSION:
> Minato is better then tobirama easily!!! Just accept it. Tobirama is a weak ass version of Minato while Minato is a super tobirama...



You sound desperate. Let me help you a little. This is the BATTLEDOME. When you come here, you read the OP, find out the specifications for the battle and argue a point as to who would win that scenario. If you disagree with a specific poster, you argue points to show that said poster's assessment is wrong and provide evidence to substantiate your own arguments. 

If you can't do the above, you refrain from posting. Is that easy enough for you to understand?


----------



## Dragon Sage Ash (Aug 13, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> I am trembling in my boots
> What's this got to do with the OP?



You damn well know you do not own a pair of boots...



> Your point is? And how does that point relate to the OP?



Minato FEATS Wya beyond tobirama's is the most accurate basis to determine who the superior shinobi is, OBVIOUSLY...



> What is your point Captain Obvious?


UUum, are you serious? What is the pint of pointing out the FACT that Minato>tobirama in a thread about Minato Vs Tobirama...



> What does the "negating of the bijuudama and setting up the red sun barrier" got to do with intelligence? Do you know the meaning of the word?



Coming from the guy that thought Tobirama using the same seal he set up one move ahead to use his consecutive paper bomb attack=intelligence to make him the most intelligent mid battle fighter..

How can you not comprehend that minato in one move, thinking *4* Moves ahead, getting rid of the juubidama, setting up protection for naruto and also setting up the red sun barrier ALL in ONE Move is not intelligent...

By your own Logic, that would make Minato 4x more intelligent then tobirama based on the previous premise that thinking ahead 1 move made tobirama so intelligent, then thinking 4 moves ahead is way better thus proving Minato>>>>Tobirama in Intelligence...



> That is asinine. Whether or not Minato improved FTG does not mean he is more skilled in ninjutsu, it would simply mean he improved FTG. That's like saying that anyone who improves Eistein's theories is smarter than him



LMAO!!! Are you conscious? Of course someone that can IMPROVE Einstein's theories WAY better is SMARTER then Him, being able to comprehend things that even Einstein could not...



> Proof Minato can summon him?



Does inato have a contract with the toads? YES...
Does minato have a big chakra pool to draw from.... YES!
Are the sage frogs, Toads.... YES...

Then Obviously Minato can summon them... It has already been made clear anyone with a toads summoning contract can summon ANY of them, just needs more chakra to summon the sage frogs... And inato has allot of that!



> None of the things you mentioned have anything to do with taijutsu except speed


Reflexes for reaction to attacks for defense, duh...
FTG to increase physical speed for more effective taijutsu... duh...
And Kunai skills for weapons attack with taijutsu... duh again...



> You sound desperate. Let me help you a little. This is the BATTLEDOME. When you come here, you read the OP, find out the specifications for the battle and argue a point as to who would win that scenario. If you disagree with a specific poster, you argue points to show that said poster's assessment is wrong and provide evidence to substantiate your own arguments.



Yea, i am so desperate proving the obvious points of minato>tobirama in everything, thus >>>tobirama is obvious...



> If you can't do the above, you refrain from posting. Is that easy enough for you to understand?



The Irony of your statements clearly escape you... You are the one who needs to UNDERSTAND... Just take another look, but this time leave all the BIAS for the senju behind and see what you come up with...

good day sir...


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 13, 2013)

Everything Tobirama has, Minato is better at. So what are we arguing over....


----------



## Senjuclan (Aug 14, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> You damn well know you do not own a pair of boots...



Sorry to disappoint but I do have a pair of ferragamo ankle boots 



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Minato FEATS Wya beyond tobirama's is the most accurate basis to determine who the superior shinobi is, OBVIOUSLY...



The OP did not ask who is the superior shinobi. It asked who would beat whom under the conditions laid out. Learn to read and answer appropriately



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> UUum, are you serious? What is the pint of pointing out the FACT that Minato>tobirama in a thread about Minato Vs Tobirama...



Unless said point is used to show how Minato wins, then spewing out a wall of text is a waste of your time. Learn to read and respond accordingly



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Coming from the guy that thought Tobirama using the same seal he set up one move ahead to use his consecutive paper bomb attack=intelligence to make him the most intelligent mid battle fighter..



Maybe you need to learn to read and notice that I broke out intelligence into different categories not just battle tactics



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> How can you not comprehend that minato in one move, thinking *4* Moves ahead, getting rid of the juubidama, setting up protection for naruto and also setting up the red sun barrier ALL in ONE Move is not intelligent...



1. I did not understand because you sentence composition was quite poor. Learn to write properly structured sentences
2. There is more to intelligence than setting up moves. If you are not going to respond to my points, I suggest you don't respond at all



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> By your own Logic, that would make Minato 4x more intelligent then tobirama based on the previous premise that thinking ahead 1 move made tobirama so intelligent, then thinking 4 moves ahead is way better thus proving Minato>>>>Tobirama in Intelligence...



That was a horrible job of paraphrasing my argument. It makes me wonder if you know what my argument was with regards to intelligence or if you are simply trolling. I am leaning towards you trolling. Read my arguments about intelligence and provide a counter. Don't waste your time or mine



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> LMAO!!! Are you conscious? Of course someone that can IMPROVE Einstein's theories WAY better is SMARTER then Him, being able to comprehend things that even Einstein could not...



Have you ever heard of Hong Sheng Zhao or Benoit Famaey? They improved the theory of relativity though. Yet no one celebrates them on the same level of Einstein. You know why? Because tweaking an almost finished product is easier to creating something ex nihilo. Minato is a tweaker, a Hong Sheng Zhao. He did not change hiraishin. Tobirama is an inventor. He is Enstein to Minato's Hong Sheng Zhao 



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Does inato have a contract with the toads? YES...
> Does minato have a big chakra pool to draw from.... YES!
> Are the sage frogs, Toads.... YES...
> 
> Then Obviously Minato can summon them... It has already been made clear anyone with a toads summoning contract can summon ANY of them, just needs more chakra to summon the sage frogs... And inato has allot of that!



Too bad the author disagrees. The databook clearly says that the number of people who can summon them is limited. This comments would be moot if it applied to people without a contract to summon them. The only way this comment is accurate is if the number of people with a contract to the toads but have the ability to summon them is limited. 

Oh and Minato has average chakra, not sage level



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Reflexes for reaction to attacks for defense, duh...
> FTG to increase physical speed for more effective taijutsu... duh...
> And Kunai skills for weapons attack with taijutsu... duh again...



1. FTG does not increase speed. I suggest you pick up an article on space-time ninjutsu
2. Minato's skills with kunai is laughable



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> Yea, i am so desperate proving the obvious points of minato>tobirama in everything, thus >>>tobirama is obvious...



You are desperate because you spew all this nonsense



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> The Irony of your statements clearly escape you... You are the one who needs to UNDERSTAND... Just take another look, but this time leave all the BIAS for the senju behind and see what you come up with...



I understand how to argue in the BD. You clearly do not. Put forth a better effort next time, I will be waiting 



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> good day sir...



Actually it was a very good night if you know what I mean


----------



## Dragon Sage Ash (Aug 14, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Sorry to disappoint but I do have a pair of ferragamo ankle boots



Wow, that sounds gay... Anyways....



> The OP did not ask who is the superior shinobi. It asked who would beat whom under the conditions laid out. Learn to read and answer appropriately



But determining who would win is based on who is the superior shinobi obviously, why ignore that fact? FEATS are the only credible evidence one can use in this place...



> Unless said point is used to show how Minato wins, then spewing out a wall of text is a waste of your time. Learn to read and respond accordingly



Oh boy... I can see you clearly have not left the BIAS behind and tried to look at this more objectively with so common sense...
HOW does showing minato>tobirama at everything meaning his Ninjutsu, genjutsu, taijutsu, speed/reflexes, power, strength, intelligence, ect would overcome tobirama's not explain WHY Minato would obviously beat tobirama in this given scenario???



> Maybe you need to learn to read and notice that I broke out intelligence into different categories not just battle tactics



Yea I missed that post...



> 1. I did not understand because you sentence composition was quite poor. Learn to write properly structured sentences
> 2. There is more to intelligence than setting up moves. If you are not going to respond to my points, I suggest you don't respond at all



1). Coming from the guy without common sense and 1rst grade logic, you have no room to criticize about sentence structure. No matter how someone writes something, if it does not appear as "the senju bro's own all" you clearly are not going to read it and accept it.
2). Where is this list of intelligence because I have yet to see it...

Minato's ability to plan ahead, analyzing the enemy, ect all exceeds tobirama;s so how in the world could tobirama be more intelligent then Minato???




> That was a horrible job of paraphrasing my argument. It makes me wonder if you know what my argument was with regards to intelligence or if you are simply trolling. I am leaning towards you trolling. Read my arguments about intelligence and provide a counter. Don't waste your time or mine



Quit making an appeal to ignorance trying to shift the burden of proof... You provide the info about intelligence, not claim it exists. Since when do I have to find info to support your claim???... Seriously, you are just completely unreasonable...
You provide that info, not me... geez...



> Have you ever heard of Hong Sheng Zhao or Benoit Famaey? They improved the theory of relativity though. Yet no one celebrates them on the same level of Einstein. You know why? Because tweaking an almost finished product is easier to creating something ex nihilo. Minato is a tweaker, a Hong Sheng Zhao. He did not change hiraishin. Tobirama is an inventor. He is Enstein to Minato's Hong Sheng Zhao



yea, the guy who took the hiraishin/FTG up 2 other levels is just a tweeker... Then again, if tobirama is so smart then why could he not go beyond level 1???
What you say makes no sense... minato would have to be more intelligent to take such a Jutsu two levels beyond what tobirama could with his limited intelligence...

And if someone could understand Einstein's theory even better then he could to take to a level beyond what he did, then they are clearly more intelligent...



> Too bad the author disagrees. The databook clearly says that the number of people who can summon them is limited. This comments would be moot if it applied to people without a contract to summon them. The only way this comment is accurate is if the number of people with a contract to the toads but have the ability to summon them is limited.



WTF are you talking about? It is common knowledge that anyone with a toad contract can summon any toad at myobokuzan... as long as they have the chakra that is...
Jman proved it only takes more chakra to summon the sage frogs, thus him having to focus his chakra to summon them. not perform anything special..
it was observed that he had control of Amaterasu in his right eye and Kagutsuchi (which Shi did not know the name of) in his left



> Oh and Minato has average chakra, not sage level



SInce when does mInato have an average chakra level considering his ability to reverse summon away the Kyuubi's Bijuudama twice, the Kyuubi, gamabunta and all after fighting full zetsu body suit enhanced Obito...
And his simple rasengan was able to do this, destroying most of the battle field which not even a sage rasengan from naruto has ever done...
FIRST PANEL: Oodama rasenagn which is the full power rasengan of naruto and a clone in one which doe snot do 1/3 of the damage that Minato's basic rasnegan does in panel 3.
SECOND PANEL: Is the sage double rasengan which doe sless damage then the oodama and nowhere near whhat minato's basic one does in the first panel...


This is how much of the battle field was wrecked, look at it all around obito and minato all destroyed and even in the circled panel that shows minato tiny in a huge debree field caused by his basic rasnegan here:


CONCLUSION:
For mInato to do that^^^ with a BASIC Rasengan, way beyond what an oodama rasengan could do and even a sage double rasnegan. minato's chakra level would have to be huge for his basic rasengan to have such destructive power.

And it never took sage level chakra to summon the sage frogs. Just Jman's base chakra level focused for about a minute to summon them and mInato clearly has chakra way beyond even Jman by his basic rasengan feat against obito...



> 1. FTG does not increase speed. I suggest you pick up an article on space-time ninjutsu
> 2. Minato's skills with kunai is laughable



1). LAMO, so manipulating time and space to use a wormhole to move instantly between any distance is not INCREASE in SPEED?
Does Minato move his body between two distances in a very short time? YES!! Then It offers greater speed, quit denying common sense... It makes you arguments so unreasonable...
2). Minato with a Kunai is more deadly then current naruto, Killer B, Gai and kakashi combined judging by his fetas with a Kunai against obito VS their combined efforts against Obito...



> You are desperate because you spew all this nonsense



I know right, I am so desperate with my common sense showing the obvious difference between Mianto and tobirama...



> I understand how to argue in the BD. You clearly do not. Put forth a better effort next time, I will be waiting



What you say and what you do are two different things obviously!!! You clearly do not know how to argue otherwise you would include common sense, get rid of your BIAS and all while using FEATS as the evidence to support your argument.



> Actually it was a very good night if you know what I mean



Sorry I do not! Cutting a hot pocket in half after warming it up and making love to it is just not my thing...


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## Turrin (Aug 14, 2013)

@SenjuClan

1. Reflexes were clearly defined in the manga as having to do with nerve signals:

"Those nerve signals blazing through Raikage-sama's body... His reflexes are at least a match for the Yellow Flash himself."

Which Minato and Raikage were noted to be exceptional at. Using Sensing has nothing to do with "reflex" yes it can enhance reaction time, but no reflex speed. We are given no indication that Tobirama's reflexes are a match for Minato's 

2. We never saw Tobirama actually react to the bomb faster than Minato & the fact that you admit Sai can "leap in" from off panel faster than Sasuke can complete the motion with his arm, despite Sasuke being faster & having quicker reactions than Sai, is no different than Tobirama "leaping in" to grab the bomb from off panel faster than Minato can make a motion with his arm. There are many examples of this:

A. Suigetsu intercepting the faster B & Raikage, before they could their motions with their arms
it was observed that he had control of Amaterasu in his right eye and Kagutsuchi (which Shi did not know the name of) in his left
it was observed that he had control of Amaterasu in his right eye and Kagutsuchi (which Shi did not know the name of) in his left

B. Naruto & Yamato intercepting Kakuzu's attack from off panel, before Kakashi could do anything, despite Kakashi having superior speed/reaction time and incredibly fast MS Jutsu, and in that instance they were indeed going for the same objective (stop Kakuzu's Jutsu):
it was observed that he had control of Amaterasu in his right eye and Kagutsuchi (which Shi did not know the name of) in his left

C. Gaara moving his sand in-front of Lee's face and knocking him away from Kimi's attack faster than Lee could move out of the way himself, despite Lee's speed being traditionally faster than Gaara's Sand. And again there they have the same objective moving Lee out of the way of Kimi:
it was observed that he had control of Amaterasu in his right eye and Kagutsuchi (which Shi did not know the name of) in his left

D. Kankuro appearing to block Sakon/Ukon's attack in time despite him being slower than Sakon/Ukon and slower than the target, Kiba:
it was observed that he had control of Amaterasu in his right eye and Kagutsuchi (which Shi did not know the name of) in his left

E. LOL Genin Naruto intercepting Kabuto's attack, despite being vastly slower:
it was observed that he had control of Amaterasu in his right eye and Kagutsuchi (which Shi did not know the name of) in his left

Etc... many more examples

So whether you want to call it lol Kishi or blame it on one character using Shunshin while the other does not, off panel saves simply do not provide us enough proof to come to an educated conclusion about character's speed/reaction time in comparison to another. I have no problem with Tobirama's reactions being >= to Minato I'd actually like Tobirama to get the hype, but I also see no harm or bias in waiting for more feats, instead of forcing a conclusion based on poor evidence.

3. The idea that Minato being able to spread out makers much more quickly over a greater area than Tobirama, not having major implications in the match is just 
And that's really the only response that logic deserves.

4. Aside form that most of your argument consists of you making baseless accusations of being a Minato-fan, which don't even make sense as I have been vocal on numerous occasions on the forums that I think Minato is an average to below average character and I don't go around touting the dude in my Sig/Avatar/Sn, for example calling myself: 

"Namikaze Clan" 
The Namikaze Clan of the Whirlpool
Insert Namikaze Clan Avatar Here
Location: Somewhere up a Namikaze's buthole

As for the accusation of being a fan of Minato's power, I could give two shits about whether Minato lives up to his hype or not & would much rather Hiruzen show pretty much any new Jutsu or Tobirama show his water release than Minato taming Yin Kyuubi and getting a BM next chapter. But if something stupid like that happens I'm not going sit here and pretend that it didn't make Minato infinitely stronger, just because I don't care for the character. A power-whore would be someone who is a fan of the strongest clan in the manga (Senju) and primarily a fan of Hashirama the strongest non Rikudo shinobi in the manga. Who than runs around the forum preaching how Hashirama is undoubtedly the strongest Hokage, w/o allowing for even a slim possibility that Kishi could make any other Hokage match him. Than get's pissed off and thinks someone is a Minato-fanboy, because they defend the possibility that Kishi could make Minato stronger than Hashirama. I mean hypothetically speaking that is.

Beyond that there is really no point continuing this discussion, because if you disagree still than our opinions on Off-panel-save feats simply differ to much and I won't waste anymore time trying to explain to someone who is and isn't a fanboy, than I already have.


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