# Internet Censorship Bill (SOPA) supported by Apple, Microsoft, Nintendo, EA and Sony



## Minh489 (Nov 18, 2011)

*You can fight this!*


---​
 sponsor a bill that will give the US government the power to censor the internet.

UPDATE:

 just joined them.

UPDATE #2:



UPDATE #3



Discuss.


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## CrazyMoronX (Nov 18, 2011)

Microsoft the good guys again? 

Fuck my ass.


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## Malvingt2 (Nov 18, 2011)

can someone explain me how the hell this work?


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## Esura (Nov 18, 2011)

Oh hell no, heellll no. Yup, I'm calling my congressman and protesting this shit.


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## dream (Nov 18, 2011)

CrazyMoronX said:


> Microsoft the good guys again?
> 
> Fuck my ass.



It's a cruel world we live in.


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## Gnome (Nov 18, 2011)

I wonder about Ubisoft, they probably support it as well, the DRM bitches that they are.


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## CrazyMoronX (Nov 18, 2011)

I'd support burning down every corporation that supports it.


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## Gnome (Nov 18, 2011)

Sponsor:
Rep. Lamar Smith R-TX

Co-sponsors:
Rep. Mark Amodei [R, NV-2]
Rep. John Barrow [D, GA-12]
Rep. Karen Bass [D, CA-33]
Rep. Howard Berman [D, CA-28]
Rep. Marsha Blackburn [R, TN-7]
Rep. Mary Bono Mack [R, CA-45]
Rep. John Carter [R, TX-31]
Rep. Steven Chabot [R, OH-1]
Rep. John Conyers [D, MI-14]
Rep. Ted Deutch [D, FL-19]
Rep. Elton Gallegly [R, CA-24]
Rep. Robert Goodlatte [R, VA-6]
Rep. Tim Griffin [R, AR-2]
Rep. Peter King [R, NY-3]
Rep. Ben Luj?n [D, NM-3]
Rep. Thomas Marino [R, PA-10]
Rep. Alan Nunnelee [R, MS-1]
Rep. William Owens [D, NY-23]
Rep. Dennis Ross [R, FL-12]
Rep. Steve Scalise [R, LA-1]
Rep. Adam Schiff [D, CA-29]
Rep. Lee Terry [R, NE-2]
Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz [D, FL-20]
Rep. Melvin Watt [D, NC-12]

Here, the list of ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) you should vote against if you can.


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## Malvingt2 (Nov 18, 2011)

CrazyMoronX said:


> I'd support burning down every corporation that supports it.


another reason to burn down NoA


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## Canute87 (Nov 18, 2011)

This freedom thing is bullshit.


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## Death-kun (Nov 18, 2011)

lol @ people who actually think they have freedom.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 18, 2011)

Malvingt2 said:


> can someone explain me how the hell this work?


Basicly, there is ANY copyright content on a website, it get's blocked US-wide, and if the owner is on US territory, there comes jail time! Even if the users of the website posted that shit, not him.

The whole bill was practicly bought by lobbysts who want their CDs, movies, etc back to 50+$ a piece and lose all kind of competition on the Internet. 

This also allows the information flow. Someone quotes a news station, shows a little clip, so people know what the fuck he's talking about in his post/video? JAIL TIME!

Last, but not least, this pretty much allows censorship of anything. Website criticizes government? Either register as a user and post copyright material and then block it, or hack in, post, and then block it.

tl;dr - Freedom of Speech is gone because corporations are greedy


Death-kun said:


> lol @ people who actually think they have freedom.


We have to protect every scrap of freedom we have, do not let higher-ups invade our privacy and freedoms we currently have. If you think differently, then please go fucking kill yourself. US is turning into second China.

//HbS


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## Shirker (Nov 18, 2011)

Hmm... read the article, seems pretty twat-ish. Yeah, I'm gonna call my reps and stuff. Definitely can't support a bill like this, especially with how vague the wording apparently is.

Also, some info on Microsoft, just incase they seemed like a light at the end of the tunnel.



Not direct support, but they might as well be all for this, too.


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## Malvingt2 (Nov 18, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> Basicly, there is ANY copyright content on a website, it get's blocked US-wide, and if the owner is on US territory, there comes jail time! Even if the users of the website posted that shit, not him.
> 
> The whole bill was practicly bought by lobbysts who want their CDs, movies, etc back to 50+$ a piece and lose all kind of competition on the Internet.
> 
> ...


 thank you...


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## Esura (Nov 18, 2011)

Gnome said:


> Sponsor:
> Rep. Lamar Smith R-TX
> 
> Co-sponsors:
> ...



Ugh, I dislike Chabot immensely (I'm an Ohioan).



Hunted by sister said:


> Basicly, there is ANY copyright content on a website, it get's blocked US-wide, and if the owner is on US territory, there comes jail time! Even if the users of the website posted that shit, not him.
> 
> The whole bill was practicly bought by lobbysts who want their CDs, movies, etc back to 50+$ a piece and lose all kind of competition on the Internet.
> 
> ...



Amen to this.


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## Hellrasinbrasin (Nov 18, 2011)

... Its going to happen boys n girls face it accept it your days of watching Tv-Shows, Films and Video Game Reviews, Trailer, and Video Game Walkthroughs on Youtube, dailymotion, extramotion and Google are in The Twilight Years of their Life.


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## Esura (Nov 18, 2011)

Hellrasinbrasin said:


> ... Its going to happen boys n girls face it accept it your days of watching Tv-Shows, Films and Video Game Reviews, Trailer, and Video Game Walkthroughs on Youtube, dailymotion, extramotion and Google are in The Twilight Years of their Life.





You shut your mouth with that negativity.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 18, 2011)

Hellrasinbrasin said:


> ... Its going to happen boys n girls face it accept it your days of watching Tv-Shows, Films and Video Game Reviews, Trailer, and Video Game Walkthroughs on Youtube, dailymotion, extramotion and Google are in The Twilight Years of their Life.



You forgot to mention the free games and fanmade games.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 18, 2011)

Hellrasinbrasin said:


> ... Its going to happen boys n girls face it accept it your days of watching Tv-Shows, Films and Video Game Reviews, Trailer, and Video Game Walkthroughs on Youtube, dailymotion, extramotion and Google are in The Twilight Years of their Life.


Whenever I see statements like this, I want to high five the man. In the face. With a brick. Twenty five times over, before switching to a knife.

//HbS


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## Shirker (Nov 18, 2011)

That's brotherly-love, right there. Of the hardcore sort


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## Hellrasinbrasin (Nov 18, 2011)

[Youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCuWuk3g_Ow[/Youtube]


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## Zaru (Nov 18, 2011)

Hellrasinbrasin said:


> ... Its going to happen boys n girls face it accept it your days of watching Tv-Shows, Films and Video Game Reviews, Trailer, and Video Game Walkthroughs on Youtube, dailymotion, extramotion and Google are in The Twilight Years of their Life.



I'll never understand the issue companies have with video game walkthroughs.

Watching a walkthrough does not hurt them. A game is meant to be played, not watched, so anyone interested in playing it has to buy it anyway. Just seeing videos is going to PROMOTE the game, if anything. For free. 

The people behind that have to be pants over head retarded to not see what bullshit they're spouting.


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## Hellrasinbrasin (Nov 18, 2011)

Zaru said:


> I'll never understand the issue companies have with video game walkthroughs.
> 
> Watching a walkthrough does not hurt them. A game is meant to be played, not watched, so anyone interested in playing it has to buy it anyway. Just seeing videos is going to PROMOTE the game, if anything. For free.
> 
> The people behind that have to be pants over head retarded to not see what bullshit they're spouting.



Becaue for every 6 people who only watch the Walkthrough online they have an imaginary loss of 712 dollars per person.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 18, 2011)

Zaru said:


> I'll never understand the issue companies have with video game walkthroughs.
> 
> Watching a walkthrough does not hurt them. A game is meant to be played, not watched, so anyone interested in playing it has to buy it anyway. Just seeing videos is going to PROMOTE the game, if anything. For free.
> 
> The people behind that have to be pants over head retarded to not see what bullshit they're spouting.


I didn't get Black Ops because I just watched the cutscenes on Youtube 

Anyway, they assume that if you watch a little bit of the game, you'll never ever buy it.

//HbS


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## Death-kun (Nov 18, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> We have to protect every scrap of freedom we have, do not let higher-ups invade our privacy and freedoms we currently have. If you think differently, then please go fucking kill yourself. US is turning into second China.
> 
> //HbS



We don't even have a scrap of freedom to protect. We think we do, but we don't. And we only think we do because we compare ourselves to other people, like those in China, who are worse off. China outright manipulates its people. The U.S. does it like a sneaky bastard. 

But, I'm not going to get into the whole "free will" debate on a place like NF. I have better things to do with my time.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 18, 2011)

Already doing it 

Did it pass?

//HbS


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 18, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> Already doing it
> 
> Did it pass?
> 
> //HbS



Dunno yet.
But safety first


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## Shirker (Nov 18, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> I didn't get Black Ops because I just watched the cutscenes on Youtube
> 
> 
> //HbS



This is why some companies don't like walkthroughs. I thought about getting Dead Island, just to give it a chance cuz I thought I was being too hard on it. Saw about 8 vids worth of walkthrough and said "f--k it"

The following isn't typical, but I've come to find that developers that don't want walkthroughs posted probably know their game is s--t, and don't want gamers to know until they buy it.


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## ensoriki (Nov 18, 2011)

Hellrasinbrasin said:


> Becaue for every 6 people who only watch the Walkthrough online they have an imaginary loss of 712 dollars per person.



Wait till the piraters just stop buying the systems anyways since they're not going to buy the games for them anyways.
Sony and co can hype themselves up on their 100,000 consoles sold in a year statistics 

Not that It matters to me anymore Im barely playing anything as it is already.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 18, 2011)

Shirker said:


> The following isn't typical, but I've come to find that developers that don't want walkthroughs posted probably know their game is s--t, and don't want gamers to know until they buy it.


Same reason releasing a demo kinda disappeared from major titles.

//HbS


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## Buskuv (Nov 18, 2011)

My my, those are some big companies.

It's unfortunate that only small companies like Google, Facebook and Firefox oppose this bill.


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## Gaawa-chan (Nov 18, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> This also allows the information flow. Someone quotes a news station, shows a little clip, so people know what the fuck he's talking about in his post/video? JAIL TIME!



Such use of materials is protected under Fair Use! WTF?! 




> tl;dr - Freedom of Speech is gone because corporations are greedy



What else is new?  There's an article in the Cafe where the US government has ruled that pizza is a vegetable so that the school lunch system doesn't have to be modified.  And yes, for some reason the government, not science, decides what is and isn't a vegetable in the USA.  They famously did the same thing with ketchup.


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## ensoriki (Nov 18, 2011)

Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> My my, those are some big companies.
> 
> It's unfortunate that only *small* companies like_ Google_, _Facebook_ and Firefox oppose this bill.



Google and Facebook are small? 
I dont even think Mozilla is small.

Facebook and Google are all about your freedom and privacy


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## Gunners (Nov 18, 2011)

Things like this make me want to kill certain people.


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## Gaawa-chan (Nov 18, 2011)

ensoriki said:


> Google and Facebook are small?
> I dont even think Mozilla is small.



... It's called sarcasm.


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## Mickey Mouse (Nov 18, 2011)

Guys let these companies have their stupid moment. I mean really...they have already started going on a roll with it...


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## Hellrasinbrasin (Nov 18, 2011)

I didn't know, we were living in a Nation - Wide Mental Hospital...*

They LIED on the Brochure...!!!!


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## Death-kun (Nov 19, 2011)

ensoriki said:


> Google and Facebook are small?
> I dont even think Mozilla is small.
> 
> Facebook and Google are all about your freedom and privacy



Someone's sarcasm detector is broken.


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## FitzChivalry (Nov 19, 2011)

Yield without fighting this? The fuck? At least sign the petitions out there. Thirty seconds, a few clicks, and you're done. This proposal of this bill is fucking ludicrous and once again puts our government's twisted priorities on full display.


Death-kun said:


> Someone's sarcasm detector is broken.



And in urgent need of repair.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 19, 2011)

Gaawa-chan said:


> Such use of materials is protected under Fair Use! WTF?!


Even with DMCA the fair use is often shat on (bullshit copyright claim almost got my old channel deleted, and forced me to make a new one). SOPA will make fair use irrelevant.

//HbS


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## Naruto (Nov 19, 2011)

So has China infiltrated the US government recently?

I think it's kinda funny how it's always the extremely successful game companies that bitch about piracy. Poor Nintendo. They don't yet have every penny in the world, you see.


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## Esura (Nov 19, 2011)

Naruto said:


> So has China infiltrated the US government recently?
> 
> *I think it's kinda funny how it's always the extremely successful game companies that bitch about piracy.* Poor Nintendo. They don't yet have every penny in the world, you see.


 The truth right here.

_You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Naruto again._


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## Velocity (Nov 19, 2011)

Naruto said:


> So has China infiltrated the US government recently?
> 
> I think it's kinda funny how it's always the extremely successful game companies that bitch about piracy. Poor Nintendo. They don't yet have every penny in the world, you see.



Why single out Nintendo? Sony registered their support three times. Besides, the funnier thing is that all anyone ever says about piracy is that the companies should just accept it and do nothing to try to stop it.

I mean, sure, this bill is a total joke but what else can they do? As it currently stands, it's like nobody thinks piracy is wrong or anything. They can't appeal to anyone's better nature because nobody has a better nature. Nobody is going to stop pirating games just because they're asked to and any attempt to cull it is apparently just an invitation for hackers to hack anything they want to.

There clearly isn't an actual viable way to at least lessen piracy, so what can they do? People always whine about the prices of things, but they still pirate films and music all the time even though they cost nowhere near as much as games. So price has nothing to do with it. People are just so used to pirating things that it's just par for the course to them. They think it's all perfectly fine to do what they are and they always just hide behind the "piracy is good for the industry" crap.

Which really just means there's only one choice left - shut down access to the websites themselves. I don't support the move at all, but I can at least see they have no other choice.


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## ensoriki (Nov 19, 2011)

Death-kun said:


> Someone's sarcasm detector is broken.



Too much serious posts has me presuming everything serious.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 19, 2011)

Two main reasons why people pirate:
-product not worth the money they demand for it
-to test the product before buying

Solution? Reduce prices from 60$ to... less. Start releasing demos again. Increase customer support and decrease DRM, instead of other way around.

Do you realise that at this point in time legit customers have more tech issues than pirates? Worst example was Borderlands, there was a bug preventing people from running the game, and pirates released the CPU fix months before developers did.

//HbS


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## ensoriki (Nov 19, 2011)

If you homebrew your Wii you can run some codes, watch some porn, pull up games on the fly, play some GBA games, etc no problem.
Legally you have to run to the damn store.


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## Velocity (Nov 19, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> Solution? Reduce prices from 60$ to... less. Start releasing demos again. Increase customer support and decrease DRM, instead of other way around.



Price has nothing to do with it. Albums are only a few quid and people still pirate those. Blurays and DVDs aren't just cheap, but you can even get them together for a very low price... Yet people still pirate them. If video games were only ?15/$20, people would still pirate them and all that'd happen is that developers lose two thirds of any profit they'd normally make.

The only way publishers will ever reduce the price of their games is if they can guarantee the number of sales would proportionately increase. Which they never will. If they had sold Modern Warfare 3 for $30 instead of $60, would it have grossed $1.55 billion in its first five days? No.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 19, 2011)

You don't know that, maybe they'd make 3$ billion  maybe not

Anyway, smaller prices mean lesser piracy, that's a fact. You'll never eliminate it completly, that's true, but you'd have to be retarded to think it's possible.

Good games defend themselves.  Heard of Sins of a Solar Empire? No DRM. Sold better than Mirror's Edge with creative DRM. And that's just one example. Of course, there were examples when something went other way around - Demigod (or something like that) was stomped, but these cases are few and far between, as opposed to no-DRM-success.

I pointed out the three main issues that cause piracy. If you don't try to fix the piracy by dealing with these issues, then you've already lost. Legit customers suffer from the security, pirates get their way anyway.

//HbS


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## Velocity (Nov 19, 2011)

Yeah, DRM doesn't solve anything... But lowering prices would just make things worse. They're trying to claw back the money they're losing, not lose more in the hopes that they're lucky enough to gain more sales. Smaller prices are only viable if the target market will buy more. It'd have to be a gradual thing and pirates would have to put their money where their mouth is. They'd have to make a conscious effort to buy the stuff they've been pirating all along in order for companies to continue to lower their prices.

Which would never happen. There's no good will between pirates and companies. One would have to take the first step and neither is willing to. Pirates cling onto this belief that companies aren't providing something worth the asking price and companies cling onto this belief that pirates will never pay for anything regardless of how cheap it is.

I don't even want to know how much Skyrim has been pirated, as an example, even though it's probably the biggest damn game ever made.


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## Axl Low (Nov 19, 2011)

Gabe Newell straight out said why the pirates are pirating BF3 when Dice/EA bitched:
"It's not the price of the game, it is the service."
I do believe part of that. You drop 60 bucks and you can't connect to a server and if it has DRM you cannot play a 60 dollar purchase?

It's sort of like buying 60 dollars of your favorite food then putting it all in the refrigerator until it expires and you have to throw it out. 

Gamers are getting raped on Day One DLC and Day One Patches, [stuff that should be on the disk finished and polished and included in the game before ship day.] and online passes. You charge for the service which is shitty. I play BF3 on PC. I could not finish a part of the SINGLE PLAYER CAMPAIGN because EA server dropped me :< Plus you have an online passcode for BF3 on the consoles and you still get dropped like it's hot. 
Oh Yeah, EA put DRM on the PC version of BF3.
Assholes!

By the way, Online passes are complete shit. More people are not playing with used games.
I buy ONE game and I buy the ONE server space.
I let my bud have the game and he has my ONE server space because I do not have the game anymore.
Used games have a right to exist because they are already pre-purchased games and server spaces opposed to piracy with copies the game 100 over, takes 100 server spaces and is OH. Kinda illegal 

Gaming will go back tot he dark ages where you only have the cover, word of mouth and the back of the case to judge the game if we can't see the reveals, expos and convention videos on youtube. Then they will snipe used games. It is inevitably coming. And what if I buy a shit game after this law should pass and maybe used game shops are outlawed next or whatever?
Should I blame myself because there are no reviews? 
Should I go the developer and get my money back? Fat chance :/ 
Keep in a dark corner of the room and hate it for life?


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 19, 2011)

Aji Tae said:


> They're trying to claw back the money they're losing, not lose more in the hopes that they're lucky enough to gain more sales.


Noone has ever lost a single penny to piracy. Saying piracy loses you money is both dumb and naive. Dumb - because you don't lose anything, piracy is not a theft. You don't take the box from a shop, you make a copy of it's contents. At best it's money not gained. Naive - because they believe every pirate would buy the game if he didn't have the option of piracy. HA-HA bullshit.

Lowering the prices is a risky move, true, but they can easly afford to do it for one title as an experiment. Lower price will make the product accessible for wider group of people, and makes it easier for other people to make the decision.

Also, corporations stop counting profit a couple of weeks after day 1, which is a mistake. They don't look at a couple months later, when the price drops by 25-50% and the most copies are sold, and they don't look at GOTY sales. I have plenty of Day 1 pirates that I bought later when there was a sale on Steam or the price just dropped a little bit.

You have to stop demonizing pirates. It's not like they are a horde of people who want everything for free, we just don't like being shat upon. And nowadays devs just don't provide quality service, just like Axl Low pointed out. Not all companies are all that bad either. The smaller the company the better product you get. I am pretty sure Amnesia had the most basic protection, and it sold really fucking well.

//HbS


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## Axl Low (Nov 19, 2011)

If piracy doesn't take money or goods thru illegal means
then why call it piracy? 

:33


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## Buskuv (Nov 19, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> Noone has ever lost a single penny to piracy. Saying piracy loses you money is both dumb and naive. Dumb - because you don't lose anything, piracy is not a theft. You don't take the box from a shop, you make a copy of it's contents. At best it's money not gained. Naive - because they believe every pirate would buy the game if he didn't have the option of piracy. HA-HA bullshit.
> 
> Lowering the prices is a risky move, true, but they can easly afford to do it for one title as an experiment. Lower price will make the product accessible for wider group of people, and makes it easier for other people to make the decision.
> 
> ...



And you should stop elevating them; of course there are people who buy after they pirate.  Some do use it as sampling tool.  But you'd have to be willfully ignorant to assume that the vast majority of people pirating--anything--are well-to-do, honest people who just don't like those nasty corporations.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 19, 2011)

I never denied that many pirates are good for nothing fucks who just want shit for free. 


Axl Low said:


> If piracy doesn't take money or goods thru illegal means
> then why call it piracy?
> 
> :33


Because it's not theft

//HbS


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## Velocity (Nov 19, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> Because it's not theft
> 
> //HbS



Which is the number one excuse pirates have for the support of piracy. As if digital theft is impossible or something. Maybe I should _copy_ your social security numbers and use them myself. It's not stealing since you still have them, but now I have them too and can use them however I please.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 19, 2011)

Security number? You mean, my ID? That's identity theft, a clearly defined crime. Or is it my bank thing? Then if you use it, you're stealing my money.



Everyone, please, beat that into your heads. Piracy is not theft. Whetever it is morally and ethicly wrong is irrelevant here. Piracy being a theft is a *lie* made up by the biggest corporations in order to get ahold of more of your money than they deserve and worked for. This is not a piracy excuse, it's a fact. When in doubt, consult a dictionary. 'kay? And a law book, too. I spent weeks researching the law stance on piracy (to know how much I can do before I become a criminal )

//HbS


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## Axl Low (Nov 19, 2011)

Piracy is an uneasy bridge. 

People having been making mixed tapes back in the day from songs on the radio but they never sold it for a profits. 
They kept it to share it or just listen to it...

Meh... Piracy vs Theft ;/


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 19, 2011)

The truth is, very little of money the game/music CD made goes to the developers or musician. A chunk of it goes to the distributor and most of it is taken by the corporation (like Activision or RIAA)

//HbS


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## Buskuv (Nov 19, 2011)

Alright.

I'm fully aware of how much the discrepancy is between the publishing giants and the people who do the actual work.  You can call it copyright infringement if you want, but you're not really making lazy, entitled teenagers out to be the witty, swashbuckling Robin Hoods they want to be.

There's a massive difference between, say, streaming an online game guide and taking the entire game without paying for it.  Good try, though.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 19, 2011)

Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> lazy, entitled teenagers out to be the witty, swashbuckling Robin Hoods they want to be


They're not. They're freeloaders.

I am talking about people like myself - I pirate only for testing purposes. If I like it - I buy it. If it's only okay - I wait for a sale or discount. If it's bad - GET THE FUCK OFF MY HDD.

Plenty of people do that. 

//HbS


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## Velocity (Nov 19, 2011)

This is what I'm talking about. Repeated attempts at justification of piracy is the very reason why the freakin' Government has had to step in on this. Education isn't going to stop pirates, because they don't just think what they're doing is justified - they think it's _legal_!

Really, pirates brought this upon themselves. Before the internet became so widely popular, nobody really cared about piracy. You were free to record things off the TV, free to copy and share cassettes between friends and nobody gave a shit... Heck, more often than not you actually gave your games to friends once you finished them. If five, ten people all played the same copy of Eternal Champions, nobody cared. The most anyone ever even heard about piracy was on VHS tapes that had that "you wouldn't steal a car" advert at the start.

With the internet becoming widespread, so too has piracy. And unlike in the 90's, nobody is even trying to hide it any more. You have actual websites like ThePirateBay that isn't just creating a service to make piracy easier, they're both promoting it _and_ bragging about each time someone tries to shut them down. So piracy went from something you did with your friends to something everyone can do. And, for most pirates, it seems they think it's perfectly justifiable. After all, if it isn't technically stealing in their eyes - then what's the harm?

Which really just proves why piracy is something that really does have to be dealt with once and for all. It's not the damage done by it, but the attitude itself. The attitude that says it's perfectly okay to pirate whatever you want because you can't steal something in digital form. That's what they need to fight. If people keep justifying their piracy with technicalities like that, then it's perfectly acceptable for the Government to step in and use technicalities of their own to cut off piracy permanently.

Clearly some people have had too much of a good thing and think they _deserve_ it.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 19, 2011)

Well, VHS tapes had fake FBI warnings since I remember.

Back then "piracy" was "okay" because there was no way to monitor it, or control it. Now the Internet go so advanced... well. 

Anyway, long story short. You go on and on how people got the taste of a finger thanks to piracy and the Internet, and now they want the whole fucking arm and think it's okay.

Now let me ask you this. Is it okay for the government and corporations to impose laws that restrict our freedom, introducing censorship and tight information flow control, kill freedom of speech, pushing us closer to Orwell's _1984_ with each year? Do you really think it's worth it, just because a couple million of stupid kids are freeloading?

I am not saying that piracy is okay. It's not all that okay, it's really gray thing, with numerous negative, and many positive aspects as well. Without the piracy we'd still be paying 50$ per CD!

At the moment, all three main multimedia markets, gaming, music, movies/TV are growing rapidly, extremely healthy, making more and more money each year. Corporations like RIAA, Activision, Walt Disney, etc are all being flooded with cash. They are literally growing like plants watered with plant steroids. And you are implying it's okay for them to push things like *SOPA*?!

If piracy is such a big of an issue, then please, stop giving us so many excuses to do it. Especially moral and ethical excuses. We don't even have to look for them, corporations throw them at us. Piracy is growing, and the reason is because we have the moral high ground. *Kind of.* <- don't ignore the bolded bit

//HbS


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 19, 2011)

Aji Tae said:


> Really, pirates brought this upon themselves. Before the internet became so widely popular, nobody really cared about piracy. You were free to record things off the TV, free to copy and share cassettes between friends and nobody gave a shit... Heck, more often than not you actually gave your games to friends once you finished them. If five, ten people all played the same copy of Eternal Champions, nobody cared. The most anyone ever even heard about piracy was on VHS tapes that had that *"you wouldn't steal a car"* advert at the start.




Doesn't matter what you think bro.

It really doesn't


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 19, 2011)

Aji Tae said:


> This is what I'm talking about. Repeated attempts at justification of piracy is the very reason why the freakin' Government has had to step in on this. Education isn't going to stop pirates, because they don't just think what they're doing is justified - they think it's _legal_!
> 
> Really, pirates brought this upon themselves. Before the internet became so widely popular, nobody really cared about piracy. You were free to record things off the TV, free to copy and share cassettes between friends and nobody gave a shit... Heck, more often than not you actually gave your games to friends once you finished them. If five, ten people all played the same copy of Eternal Champions, nobody cared. The most anyone ever even heard about piracy was on VHS tapes that had that "you wouldn't steal a car" advert at the start.
> 
> ...



I'm gonna put this flat out b/c there's a blatant hypocrisy that people aren't aware of. EVERYONE IN THIS FORUM INCLUDING YOURSELF ARE PIRATING. How? Are those Avatars and Signatures yours? Did you make them yourself? Did you use licensed material without the owners' permission? Pictures? Screenshots? Fanart? Video gifs? Etc.? 

Honey, you are pirating. 

Either yo ho ho and a bottle of rum or get rid of your stuff to make your point stand otherwise don't speak while you're doing the other.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 19, 2011)

As a matter of fact, I did all the editing of my avatar, and I did the colouring of the signature (and some other editing), so it's fair use  not piracy

BUT! Reading mangas on-line? Piracy. Animes count, too.

//HbS


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## ensoriki (Nov 19, 2011)

When he say he doesn't pirate?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 19, 2011)

ensoriki said:


> When he say he doesn't pirate?



You don't have to say as much as blatantly show it. I hate when people say one thing and expect the issue not to hit themselves while do the other and when the event ever happens, all of a sudden comes a blatant shock.



> As a matter of fact, I did all the editing of my avatar, and I did the colouring of the signature (and some other editing), so it's fair use not piracy



Except with SOPA, fair use goes out the window. Where's your freedom and rights now? Good thing this will never fly in court.


----------



## Hunted by sister (Nov 19, 2011)

Yeah, thankfully, SOPA has been rejected. I think.

//HbS


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 19, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> Yeah, thankfully, SOPA has been rejected. I think.
> 
> //HbS



Good thing, that's like a walking violation of rights waiting to be billed. It would've a gigantic shitstorm if it passed. This is what happens when you attempt to fight the monster known as the internet.


----------



## Buskuv (Nov 19, 2011)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> You don't have to say as much as blatantly show it. I hate when people say one thing and expect the issue not to hit themselves while do the other and when the event ever happens, all of a sudden comes a blatant shock.



I know full well how inane and mindbogglingly out of date Copyright Law is, bro.

No need to pretend you're the only one.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 19, 2011)

Dr. Boskov Krevorkian said:


> I know full well how inane and mindbogglingly out of date Copyright Law is, bro.
> 
> No need to pretend you're the only one.



I need not to. If this is some form of Devil's Advocate, it's in bad form. Not you though.


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## Gunners (Nov 19, 2011)

That being said they need to change the way they charge people for things. Without piracy certain artists will receive less exposure which could affect concert sales and what not. 

At the moment the market is over saturated with crap and a lot of the music made isn't made to last. Something like the Diary of Alicia Keys I wouldn't mind buying as 8 years on the songs still have value but you look at the majority of stuff produced today, they're essentially designed to be club bangers for a month before being replaced with something new. 

With regards to films they need to give people more incentive to actually buy the film in the first place. Add features that improve the group/family experience as that should be their target audience.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 19, 2011)

Make the movies not suck for one. I'm not exactly expecting some sort of epic but at least make it look like there was effort made.


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## Sephiroth (Nov 20, 2011)

Like a censorship law would stop pirates.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 20, 2011)

Sephiroth said:


> Like a censorship law would stop pirates.



[YOUTUBE]IBH4g_ua5es[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Nov 20, 2011)

Wait, this forum is about piracy? Shit I thought I was on the Naruto forums... must have taken a wrong turn at 4chan.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 20, 2011)

Yeah  don't you all pirate mangas and animes? Bloody hell, links to pirated M&A are all over the place, as well as other things. I am willing to bet that less than a half of users pay for the mangas and animes they discuss here.

//HbS


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## Esura (Nov 20, 2011)

Whats Virgin and Sky?

And do not reply to my shit if you trolling with some, "HURR DURR HE DUN KNOW WAT A VIRGIN IS!! LAAAME!!!" shit.


----------



## Esura (Nov 20, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> If I were to guess, these are a TV channel packs? Like, you buy it, and you get access to all channels listed there, and probably Virgin and Sky together give you all available in UK, by cable or satellite or whatever you have there. That's just me guessing.
> 
> To me, the cash is lost only if the pirate outright says "yes, I'd buy it if I couldn't pirate". Otherwise, it's just wishful thinking on corporation's side.
> 
> //HbS



Ah ok.

I never understood this argument how piracy leads to lost revenue. How do they even determine this anyways without some VGCharts-esque extreme estimations? As Naruto said before, the companies who cry loudest about piracy aren't companies that's hurting for profit.


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## Gunners (Nov 20, 2011)

Esura said:


> Whats Virgin and Sky?
> 
> And do not reply to my shit if you trolling with some, "HURR DURR HE DUN KNOW WAT A VIRGIN IS!! LAAAME!!!" shit.



Individual service providers.


----------



## Minh489 (Nov 20, 2011)

More news


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## Kei (Nov 20, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> Basicly, there is ANY copyright content on a website, it get's blocked US-wide, and if the owner is on US territory, there comes jail time! Even if the users of the website posted that shit, not him.
> 
> The whole bill was practicly bought by lobbysts who want their CDs, movies, etc back to 50+$ a piece and lose all kind of competition on the Internet.
> 
> ...




That is basically freedom of speech down the drain right there


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## Naruto (Nov 20, 2011)

Hijacked first post, added poll.


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## Naruko (Nov 20, 2011)

Already signed that petition to tell my Congressperson to vote this down. If you look at who supports it basically breaks down between wealthy corporations for and American voters (Facebook, Tumblr, etc posters) against. That says everything you need to know about it. 

This is censorship, period. The first principle of this nation was no censorship. They want to fight piracy, blocking internet sites is NOT the way to do it. If a website is found committing crimes, laws already exist to shut them down, confiscate their servers for evidence, etc. This is overkill and it's unhealthy.

USA wants to be China? Pass the law - but these corporations are NOT hurting for money and they aren't losing sales to pirates. People that pirate generally aren't going to buy the product anyway. 

These corporations have never shown a monetary loss that hurts them from piracy. They theorize that every item pirated = lost revenue, but they don't have hard data that people would buy these items if they weren't pirated. Their profit margins are healthy, their stocks are healthy, their investors are #1 in the poll, swimming naked in money. 

You want to argue piracy hurts the economy? Wrong. Look around at used bookstores, used record shops and used music stores, used game stores. Millions of dollars in employment, whole industries that have existed, side-by-side with first-run music, book and game stores without either suffering and the customer benefiting from the competition. Used stores give a home to people too poor to buy new or don't want to pay $60 for a new game or $20-30 for a new book or album without hearing it first or knowing they'll like it. Those industries are fine, those authors and musicians and investors are filthy effing rich.

Corporations vs. consumers. Businesses vs. citizens. It's boiling down to class warfare and these corporations signing on to support such a blatantly anti-First Amendment Act is horrible PR during the time of Occupy Wall Street and the "99%" movement in general. If a corporation wants to scream to their consumers "we are the 1%, you are the 99%, bend over and take it suckers!" they should sign up for supporting this and show themselves as the venal and greedy money-monsters-in-fear-of-competition that they are.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Nov 21, 2011)

Naruko said:


> You want to argue piracy hurts the economy? Wrong. Look around at used bookstores, used record shops and used music stores, used game stores. Millions of dollars in employment, whole industries that have existed, side-by-side with first-run music, book and game stores without either suffering and the customer benefiting from the competition. Used stores give a home to people too poor to buy new or don't want to pay $60 for a new game or $20-30 for a new book or album without hearing it first or knowing they'll like it. Those industries are fine, those authors and musicians and investors are filthy effing rich.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOmp3HpAGgM&feature=feedlik[/YOUTUBE]

Are you really comparing piracy to used sales? 

With used games, the product has to be bought originally. The money is made for the developer, publisher, and the store. With piracy, no money is made for the developer, publisher, or the store. They take the product, in it's entirety, and no one gets paid for it. 

It's a vicious cycle. Publishers have to increase the cost of their product in order to make up for the money piracy loses them, and in turn pirates continue to pirate in order to combat inflation.

In an ideal world, there would be a demo for every game that is ever published. That would reduce piracy and inflation a lot. If there is a demo for a product and people are still pirating it, then they have absolutely no excuse. They are flat out stealing. It's not about "trying before buying". It's just stealing. And you know what? Most pirates would still pirate because that has always been a bullshit excuse. 

They may intend to try games before spending money on them... in some cases they do just that. They try it, and if they like it a lot they buy it. If they hate it they uninstall it. However, most games fall in the middle. They don't hate it and they don't love it. So they play it all the way through and then keep it in their collection of games they pirated and never bought or uninstalled. Because they are thieves. 

It IS hurting the industry because if pirates didn't do that, game prices wouldn't need to be so inflated, and publishers wouldn't need to combat used games with DRM's, online passes, and other bullshit. Pirates complain about those systems, and use them as an excuse to do what they do, but in the end they are the cause.


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## Esura (Nov 21, 2011)

No, companies being greedy sons of bitches is the cause of all this.


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## First Tsurugi (Nov 21, 2011)

I think most of the companies just looked at the title of the bill, saw that it was anti-piracy, and signed off on it.

While I'm disappointed in some of the companies, for the most part I can understand why.

For Nintendo's part, piracy is rampant on the DS, and the Wii is infamously easy to softmod.

Small publishers like XSEED and Level 5 are the ones most negatively affected by piracy because their games have a very small audience.

And Sony's not surprising either given how bad piracy is on the PSP and how they flipped the fuck out at the prospect of a cracked PS3.


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## Wolfarus (Nov 21, 2011)

First Tsurugi said:


> I think most of the companies just looked at the title of the bill, saw that it was anti-piracy, and signed off on it.



I doubt ANY company their size just blindly signed off on a legal document after reading only the 1st paragraph or 2.

Its much more likely this is simply a case of corporate greed, and said companies wanting to get their hands (deeper) into american government.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 21, 2011)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Are you really comparing piracy to used sales?
> 
> With used games, the product has to be bought originally. The money is made for the developer, publisher, and the store. With piracy, no money is made for the developer, publisher, or the store. They take the product, in it's entirety, and no one gets paid for it.
> 
> ...


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOmp3HpAGgM&feature=feedlik[/YOUTUBE]

This is a common misconception here. Prices aren't going up, it's the $ that is getting weaker. Games always cost 40-60$, nothing changed here. The quality on the other hand is nose-diving.

Piracy doesn't hurt the industry, it creates a necessary competition, if not for piracy, the games would be like 100$ at this point. 

And for the last time, piracy is not stealing.



It's freeloading at best. *Not* stealing.

Plus, DRM, online passes, etc, are working against something that has been legal since the dawn of time - used sales. You buy your copy, and by the law you have the right to sell it. Corporations are denying you that right, or atleast trying.


Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Are you really comparing piracy to used sales?


No. Corporations are. They've been trying to make it illegal for ages now.

//HbS


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## Zaru (Nov 21, 2011)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> With used games, the product has to be bought originally. The money is made for the developer, publisher, and the store.



You mean



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> With used games, the product has to be bought originally. The money is made for the store.



Publishers HATE used sales. They don't see a single fucking cent from it. That's why there are so many "day 1 dlcs", "one-use unlock codes" etc. nowadays. They want to punish used buyers by charging them extra money so that they can see some $$$ as well. You often don't get the full game when you buy it used anymore.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 21, 2011)

Hey guys, appereantly supporters of this bill are welcome to the hearings/voting, but opposition was .

//HbS


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## Gunners (Nov 21, 2011)

Something I find humorous. Companies act as though piracy is killing the industry yet if you look at things like sales, they were arguably better when piracy was more rampant. 

Looking at the Playstion and PS2 vs the PS3. Piracy was rampant on both the Playstation and PS2, not so much on the PS3, actually I haven't encountered one person who has a pirated PS3 game, yet the PS2 and PS1 are more successful consoles that secured Sony's position on the map. 

Look at the Gamecube compared to the PS2, due to the small discs it was harder to pirate Gamecube games, yet sales of PS2 games and hardware was higher than the Gamecub. 

I don't know how the DS stacks up to the regular gameboy and GA :s that said, despite how easy it is to pirate DS games, sales were still really good. 

If you produce quality it will sell. If you produce crap it won't.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 21, 2011)

You don't need to compare. Even with big piracy, the whole industries, gaming, music, and movies/TV are growing rapidly, making more and more money each year. They're doing better than the economy of any country in the world.

//HbS


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## Naruto (Nov 21, 2011)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> It IS hurting the industry because if pirates didn't do that, game prices wouldn't need to be so inflated



*HAHAHAHA*

I assume you weren't old enough to even consider looking at price tags during the 80s and the 90s, because a standard price for games used to be $80. That's eighty fucking US dollars, which by the way was a LOT more money then than it is now. Gaming being expensive ISN'T something new and it _precedes _piracy.

You have no fucking idea what you're talking about. You allowed yourself to be brainwashed by the whining of multimillionaire companies. Good job.



Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> and publishers wouldn't need to combat used games with DRM's



You mean the DRM that doesn't stop pirates and only hurts paying customers? No, I will not blame pirates for that. I will blame the publishers for being greedy FUCKS and screwing ME over when I buy a game by telling me I have a limited amount of lifetime installations and that when those are gone, I'll be lucky if I get a single key renovation if I beg their support line hard enough.

No, son. You don't have a clue.



Hunted by sister said:


> Hey guys, appereantly supporters of this bill are welcome to the hearings/voting, but opposition was .
> 
> //HbS



Oh wow. Added to OP.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Nov 21, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOmp3HpAGgM&feature=feedlik[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> This is a common misconception here. Prices aren't going up, it's the $ that is getting weaker. Games always cost 40-60$, nothing changed here. The quality on the other hand is nose-diving.
> 
> ...



Yeah, because obtaining a complete product without paying for it isn't stealing! It's just freeloading! 

Give me a fucking break.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 21, 2011)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Yeah, because obtaining a complete product without paying for it isn't stealing! It's just freeloading!
> 
> Give me a fucking break.




Disable AdBlock, my response is an image.

1-0 won't be 0 just because you fucking whine about it all day. It'll stay 1. Piracy is not theft. It's piracy. That's why we have separate words for them.

//HbS


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## CrazyMoronX (Nov 21, 2011)

Game prices haven't changed, but people borrowing games hasn't changed either. Why they mad now?

The Internet just makes it so that everyone is your buddy.


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## Velocity (Nov 21, 2011)

Ah, how funny things turn out in the end...

The internet makes pirates more vocal and noticeable than before, so the shareholders start demanding more stringent anti-piracy measures from the companies they own, so the average joes who work in the company start throwing out DRM and all this other stuff, and then pirates start whining and calling the companies "evil" and "greedy", then the shareholders of these companies then do their thing and hold charity dinners and stuff so they can influence Government officials to introduce the laws they want...

...and then we're here.

Nintendo is evil. Sony is greedy. It doesn't matter that these companies are basically obligated to show their support of a law their shareholders ensured was put up for consideration... It doesn't matter that this is just another one of those "1%" things where the rich are doing whatever they want to become richer... None of that matters at all. Let's all just vent our anger at the people who work for Nintendo, Sony and the companies that support the law, not the people who own it and got the law proposed in the first place. 'Cause who cares about the little guy? Not even the little guy, it seems.


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## Krory (Nov 21, 2011)

The people in this thread amuse me greatly.


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## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

I find it rather funny about the debate over the issue of piracy cause really ain't piracy the same thing as when you borrow something from someone and put it on your computer? Why not make borrowing illegal all together. Shoot the way the government is going might as well everything illegal even wearing old cloths. The reason piracy exists is the fact most people don't have any money at all to go out and buy the media and that can be blamed on the economy. No jobs are hiring and look at what the government is doing their priority is set elsewhere.


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## Naruto (Nov 21, 2011)

Aji Tae said:


> Let's all just vent our anger *at the people who work for* Nintendo, Sony and the companies that support the law, *not the people who own it* and got the law proposed in the first place. 'Cause who cares about the little guy? Not even the little guy, it seems.



>.>

Nobody in here is targeting the people with no decision-making power. I think you're having a monologue.


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## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

*-snip-* Considering just about everyone on the internet is a so called internet pirate. Look at all the avatars that depict characters that are not owned by said people whom use it. Corporations have more than enough money in their pockets and look at everyone else whom are either struggling or can't get any money whatsoever no matter how hard they try. We need a revolution if this very country is going to get any better.


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## Wan (Nov 21, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> Piracy is not theft. It's piracy.
> 
> //HbS



You're arguing semantics.  Piracy, if you want to be strict, is copyright infringement.  It's still illegal and wrong in the same sense that copying a DVD that you paid for and distributing it on the street for free would be illegal and wrong.

Don't take this as me supporting Protect IP/SOPA, I just want to get the point across that you can't justify piracy.


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## Gnome (Nov 21, 2011)

Something being illegal doesn't make it wrong, just illegal.


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## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

> You're arguing semantics. Piracy, if you want to be strict, is copyright infringement. It's still illegal and wrong in the same sense that copying a DVD that you paid for and distributing it on the street for free would be illegal and wrong.



Look at borrowing something from a friend its the same damn thing. Borrowing is illegal yet no one is caught.


----------



## Wan (Nov 21, 2011)

vernamon said:


> Look at borrowing something from a friend its the same damn thing. Borrowing is illegal yet no one is caught.



You're not making more copies when you lend a game or movie to a friend.  Thus, no copyright infringement.



Gnome said:


> Something being illegal doesn't make it wrong, just illegal.



I know that, I just think it's both.  It's illegal because it's against the law.  I think it's wrong because it's freely taking the efforts of all the developers, film makers, musicians, etc., that they depend on for their livelihood.


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## Gnome (Nov 21, 2011)

It would be nice if the money from sales of pirated property went to the creators, but most of it finds its way to publishers and what not.


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## Esura (Nov 21, 2011)

Oman said:


> You're arguing semantics.  Piracy, if you want to be strict, is copyright infringement.  It's still illegal and wrong in the same sense that copying a DVD that you paid for and distributing it on the street for free would be illegal and wrong.
> 
> Don't take this as me supporting Protect IP/SOPA, I just want to get the point across *that you can't justify piracy.*



Not legally, but companies nowadays sure make piracy a tempting mistress indeed. Companies are giving people more reasons than ever to pirate.


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## Wan (Nov 21, 2011)

It could be said that pirates are giving them more reasons to be so restrictive.


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## Gnome (Nov 21, 2011)

Except pirates are the ones willing to go the extra mile to circumvent the restrictions, so the only people dealing with restrictions are people who actually buy the product.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 21, 2011)

Oman said:


> You're arguing semantics.  Piracy, if you want to be strict, is copyright infringement.  It's still illegal and wrong in the same sense that copying a DVD that you paid for and distributing it on the street for free would be illegal and wrong.


I know. Piracy is illegal. However, punching a random dude who insulted your girlfriend in the face is also illegal. I forgot where I was going with this analogy, so I'll just say that you can't judge things by black and white. There are very few black and very few white things in the world, and there are thousands of shades of gray in between. Piracy is somewhere there.


Oman said:


> I just want to get the point across that you can't justify piracy.


I can try to justify it, the corporations keep throwing reasons to at me.

//HbS


----------



## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Yes some Disks may have that but there are things around it. Have you ever borrowed anything from a friend and made a copy of it?


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## Wan (Nov 21, 2011)

vernamon said:


> Yes some Disks may have that but there are things around it. Have you ever borrowed anything from a friend and made a copy of it?



No, because that would be copyright infringment.  Just borrowing something isn't.


----------



## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Oman said:


> No, because that would be copyright infringment.  Just borrowing something isn't.



hmmmm........funny cause I believe your avatar is going against copyright infringement cause I highly doubt you drew it up. What about your Desktop wallpapers same thing can be said. Hell Borrowing anything is technically illegal because you never bought the said item. Borrowing is a lighter term of theft.


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## Krory (Nov 21, 2011)

All I'm seeing is "I'm not a pirate, I'm a freedom fighter." Trying to "justify" piracy defeats the purpose of being a pirate. Embrace illegality and accept your punishment, kiddos. Lord knows I will.


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## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Krory said:


> All I'm seeing is "I'm not a pirate, I'm a freedom fighter." Trying to "justify" piracy defeats the purpose of being a pirate. Embrace illegality and accept your punishment, kiddos. Lord knows I will.




Indeed this is true however what is illegal for one is not for another its all the matter of perspective. Everything is illegal when your told it is by another person. We all have free will we are not bound by another even when another has their hands on us. We abide by them in fear of what they will do to us no matter what it will be.


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## Wan (Nov 21, 2011)

vernamon said:


> hmmmm........funny cause I believe your avatar is going against copyright infringement cause I highly doubt you drew it up. What about your Desktop wallpapers same thing can be said. Hell Borrowing anything is technically illegal because you never bought the said item. Borrowing is a lighter term of theft.



DeviantART drawings are distributed freely (though I would do well to give credit to the artist...).  And my desktop wallpaper right now is the default Windows 7 background.

Borrowing is not theft.  The original item was already paid for, and thus the purchaser has control of the physical medium.

Edit:





vernamon said:


> Indeed this is true however what is illegal for one is not for another its all the matter of perspective. Everything is illegal when your told it is by another person. We all have free will we are not bound by another even when another has their hands on us. We abide by them in fear of what they will do to us no matter what it will be.



Um.  No.  What's legal and illegal is not a matter of perspective in the slightest.  The government makes laws.  They decide what's illegal and what's not.  You don't.  We have free will, sure, but that has nothing to do with whether or not something's illegal.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 21, 2011)

Rama said:


> The problem with piracy is not really the borrowing of copyright material but the large amount of copies that are distributed, of course is not stealing from the company but its preventing the company for getting the income for the person who obtain the game.  This is the same as the sell of a used game, but a used game is shared less then pirated games.


Here's the problem with pirating.
What money? There is none, none at all.
In fact it allows people that will never get the game to get it.
Used games, holy shit game stop!
Several billion you say and it's by unfair treatment to the consumer?

I support used games but not getting ripped off, so I oppose places such as gamestop.


----------



## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Oman said:


> DeviantART drawings are distributed freely (though I would do well to give credit to the artist...).  And my desktop wallpaper right now is the default Windows 7 background.
> 
> Borrowing is not theft.  The original item was already paid for, and thus the purchaser has control of the physical medium.



AHA!! and that is indeed where piracy begins. One person purchases the item therefore owning the said item and like you said they have control of what they do with it therefore they choose to allow others to borrow the said medium in a digital form. They have the right to do what they want with it because they purchased it in the first place. Now the borrowing issue may not be a physical thing but nonetheless it is shared to other's to enjoy. If piracy didn't exist so many things would have been lost. You can't find many things from years ago to be purchased today.


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## Wan (Nov 21, 2011)

vernamon said:


> AHA!! and that is indeed where piracy begins. One person purchases the item therefore owning the said item and like you said they have control of what they do with it therefore they choose to allow others to borrow the said medium in a digital form. They have the right to do what they want with it because they purchased it in the first place. Now the borrowing issue may not be a physical thing but nonetheless it is shared to other's to enjoy. If piracy didn't exist so many things would have been lost. You can't find many things from years ago to be purchased today.



Notice my wording.  I said the buyer has control of the physical medium.  They don't have the right to copy the _content_ that's on the physical medium and put it into another medium.  Borrowing isn't copyright infringement, piracy is.


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## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Oman said:


> Um.  No.  What's legal and illegal is not a matter of perspective in the slightest.  The government makes laws.  They decide what's illegal and what's not.  You don't.  We have free will, sure, but that has nothing to do with whether or not something's illegal.



Thats because we allow the government to do so do you know how many ridiculous laws there are? We allow ourselves to be controlled by other's end of story and to top that all off the government has been corrupt and lies to us constantly. They are making us into the next China unless we the people do something about it. There's too many people who can't feed their families reason due to corporate greed and government greed. The government does not care about the people at all. The way the laws are setup they are more in support for those who do the crime than the victim themselves. If a person is raped and fights back and if the victim manages to live and they hurt the rapist they themselves get into trouble. Same thing can be said when trying to defend yourself from an attacker you and the attacker are in trouble. Its a corrupt world we live in welcome to it and get over it. People will do what they want and there's no stopping them.


----------



## Wan (Nov 21, 2011)

vernamon said:


> Thats because we allow the government to do so do you know how many ridiculous laws there are? We allow ourselves to be controlled by other's end of story and to top that all off the government has been corrupt and lies to us constantly. They are making us into the next China unless we the people do something about it. There's too many people who can't feed their families reason due to corporate greed and government greed. The government does not care about the people at all. The way the laws are setup they are more in support for those who do the crime than the victim themselves. If a person is raped and fights back and if the victim manages to live and they hurt the rapist they themselves get into trouble. Same thing can be said when trying to defend yourself from an attacker you and the attacker are in trouble. Its a corrupt world we live in welcome to it and get over it. People will do what they want and there's no stopping them.



And that's all beside the point.  Whether or not you agree with why the government makes laws, an individual's perspective on the law means nothing.  What's illegal for one person under a law is illegal for everyone.


----------



## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Oman said:


> Notice my wording.  I said the buyer has control of the physical medium.  They don't have the right to copy the _content_ that's on the physical medium and put it into another medium.  Borrowing isn't copyright infringement, piracy is.



Then why has such things as burner's existed? Being able to record things when its on TV or record something on the radio is that not the same thing?


----------



## Hunted by sister (Nov 21, 2011)

Oman said:


> Notice my wording.  I said the buyer has control of the physical medium.  They don't have the right to copy the _content_ that's on the physical medium and put it into another medium.  Borrowing isn't copyright infringement, piracy is.


By law, after we purchase the product, we have the right to do whatever we want with it. We can sell it, and yes, we can make copies. Don't believe EULAs, they're full of shit, and they're on a lower priority than law. It becomes truly illegal when the copies turn into source of income.

//HbS


----------



## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Oman said:


> And that's all beside the point.  Whether or not you agree with why the government makes laws, an individual's perspective on the law means nothing.  What's illegal for one person under a law is illegal for everyone.


Either way we allow the government to do what they do we allow ourselves to be controlled by them period. We are born with free will no one can control a human being period no matter how hard one tries. We obey because we are in fear of what other's will do to us we don't especially when they are armed and stronger.


----------



## Rama (Nov 21, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Here's the problem with pirating.
> What money? There is none, none at all.
> In fact it allows people that will never get the game to get it.
> Used games, holy shit game stop!
> ...



Is hard to understand your post but ill try. 

Are you implying that if those games weren't available for free in the internet those people wouldn't buy it at the shop? 

I'm sure if they had no choice but to buy it they would, if they really wanted to play it. Also I already said that there is no real money involve in pirating, only loss of potential buyers which is loss potential money. I don't get you point about used games at all sorry.


----------



## Wan (Nov 21, 2011)

vernamon said:


> Then why has such things as burner's existed? Being able to record things when its on TV or record something on the radio is that not the same thing?



Burners exist so one can create their own content.  And in a way, you're already paying for the media when you watch something on TV.



Hunted by sister said:


> By law, after we purchase the product, we have the right to do whatever we want with it. We can sell it, and yes, we can make copies. Don't believe EULAs, they're full of shit, and they're on a lower priority than law. It becomes truly illegal when the copies turn into source of income.
> 
> //HbS



Try setting up a shop where you sell copies of DVDs based on single copies that you paid for.  You'll be shut down in a heartbeat.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 21, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> By law, after we purchase the product, we have the right to do whatever we want with it. We can sell it, and yes, we can make copies. Don't believe EULAs, they're full of shit, and they're on a lower priority than law. It becomes truly illegal when the copies turn into source of income.
> 
> //HbS



Even when you buy a game you are only considered to be borrowing it from the company.


----------



## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> By law, after we purchase the product, we have the right to do whatever we want with it. We can sell it, and yes, we can make copies. Don't believe EULAs, they're full of shit, and they're on a lower priority than law. It becomes truly illegal when the copies turn into source of income.
> 
> //HbS



Exactly however some due just so they can make ends meet in todays world but then wouldn't it be illegal then when selling old used items like in a garage sale or selling them over on ebay or amazon.com?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 21, 2011)

Rama said:


> Is hard to understand your post but ill try.
> 
> Are you implying that if those games weren't available for free in the internet those people wouldn't buy it at the shop?
> 
> I'm sure if they had no choice but to buy it they would, if they really wanted to play it. Also I already said that there is no real money involve in pirating, only loss of potential buyers which is loss potential money. I don't get you point about used games at all sorry.



 I tried to put it as simple as possible for you people and you fail to understand it anyway.
There IS NO LOSS OF PROFIT only money that doesn't exist to begin with.


----------



## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Even when you buy a game you are only considered to be borrowing it from the company.


indeed true but wouldn't it in a way be like renting it indefinitely only having to pay once?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 21, 2011)

vernamon said:


> indeed true but wouldn't it in a way be like renting it indefinitely only having to pay once?



Yes,but they could technically take it back if they wished.
Kinda how you are only renting that BOUGHT house till someone decides to take it... like the government.
That house you paid for with several hundred thousand dollars you never owned it you were borrowing it.


----------



## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Yes,but they could technically take it back if they wished.
> Kinda how you are only renting that BOUGHT house till someone decides to take it... like the government.
> That house you paid for with several hundred thousand dollars you never owned it you were borrowing it.



Therefore that would apply to everything anyone and everyone has bought no matter what it is we are only technically borrowing it. Really stupid how laws are setup in support of for these companies that make more money than they should.


----------



## Hunted by sister (Nov 21, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> *It becomes truly illegal when the copies turn into source of income.*





Oman said:


> Try setting up a shop where you sell copies of DVDs based on single copies that you paid for.  You'll be shut down in a heartbeat.


Uhh... better luck next time... I guess? 


Unlosing Ranger said:


> Even when you buy a game you are only considered to be borrowing it from the company.


This is a silly misconception and breaking of consumer's rights, which corporations happily take advantage of. It's written in the EULA, right? Well, you can't access EULA before you buy the product, so they can go blow themselves.

//HbS


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 21, 2011)

vernamon said:


> Therefore that would apply to everything anyone and everyone has bought no matter what it is we are only technically borrowing it. Really stupid how laws are setup in support of for these companies that make more money than they should.



"Well, the hearing is soon, and no opponents of the bill are allowed in Congress.  "
and no opponents of the bill are allowed in Congress.
no opponents of the bill are allowed
no opponents


----------



## Rama (Nov 21, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> There IS NO LOSS OF PROFIT only money that doesn't exist to begin with.



you really don't have to post pictures I'm not 12, you just didn't post a clear paragraph. Also you didn't understand *me*.



> Also I already said that there is no real money involve in pirating, only loss of potential buyers which is loss potential money.



*Potential* Money, notice how I highlighted potential(possible) there.  I never said there where any loss of profit but loss of potential profit, ones a person obtains the game free online he doesn't have the need to buy it, thus the company loses a potential buyer, if the game wasn't available online and the potential buyer still had the choice to buy it, there is a chance that the person would buy the game, thus *potential* profit.  Thats all I'm trying to say.


----------



## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> Uhh... better luck next time... I guess?
> 
> This is a silly misconception and breaking of consumer's rights, which corporations happily take advantage of. It's written in the EULA, right? Well, you can't access EULA before you buy the product, so they can go blow themselves.
> 
> //HbS



Indeed true and yet go and look at what the companies are trying to get the government to do. This bill passes I do hope for a revolution to be in affect to rid the world of such corporate and government greed.


----------



## Esura (Nov 21, 2011)

With the right lawyer and depending on the circumstances, EULA's can be systematically dismantled.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 21, 2011)

Rama said:


> you really don't have to post pictures I'm not 12, you just didn't post a clear paragraph. Also you didn't understand *me*.
> 
> 
> 
> *Potential* Money, notice how I highlighted potential(possible) there.  I never said there where any loss of profit but loss of potential profit, ones a person obtains the game free online he doesn't have the need to buy it, thus the company loses a potential buyer, if the game wasn't available online and the potential buyer still had the choice to buy it, there is a chance that the person would buy the game, thus *potential* profit.  Thats all I'm trying to say.


Companies consider a loss of potential money a loss in profit.
EVERYONE is potential profit for companies.
There is no potential money bro it doesn't exist.
As in there was no money to begin with.
Potential money is non-existent money.


----------



## Wan (Nov 21, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> Uhh... better luck next time... I guess?
> 
> //HbS



Gah, I slipped up.  I meant to say if you distribute them from that store for free.  It doesn't matter if you're makin money off of it or not, if you're distributing them on a large enough scale to be noticed you will be shut down.


----------



## Esura (Nov 21, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Companies consider a loss of potential money a loss in profit.
> EVERYONE is potential profit for companies.
> There is no potential money bro it doesn't exist.
> As in there was no money to begin with.
> *Potential money is non-existent money.*



This shit needs to be beaten in the head of every executive right now.


----------



## Hunted by sister (Nov 21, 2011)

Oman said:


> Gah, I slipped up.  I meant to say if you distribute them from that store for free.  It doesn't matter if you're makin money off of it or not, if you're distributing them on a large enough scale to be noticed you will be shut down.


True... maybe. I don't know. Idea of distributing on a large scale for free as a shop never came through my mind, and it never happened before (never heard of such thing happening), so I have no idea what the law says about that.

What CrazyMoronX said before is right, though. You are free to distribute among your buddies, and Internet makes us all buddies  

//HbS


----------



## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> True... maybe. I don't know. Idea of distributing on a large scale for free as a shop never came through my mind, and it never happened before (never heard of such thing happening), so I have no idea what the law says about that.
> 
> What CrazyMoronX said before is right, though. You are free to distribute among your buddies, and Internet makes us all buddies
> 
> //HbS



exactly however the major companies and the government are trying to say otherwise. We share what we get among friends whether they be online or off.


----------



## Shirker (Nov 21, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Companies consider a loss of potential money a loss in profit.
> EVERYONE is potential profit for companies.
> There is no potential money bro it doesn't exist.
> As in there was no money to begin with.
> Potential money is non-existent money.



Rationally, the logic is kinda sound. However, my problem with it personally is that it can be, will be, and - no doubt in my mind - has been abused by many a shithead on the internet.

"Why buy the game when the free shit is right _there_? It's not like they're losing anything, anyway."

It's pretty short-sighted thinking and is almost as twisted as the ludicrous DLC related measures companies are using to secure funds.


----------



## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Shirker said:


> My problem with this logic is that it can be, will be, and - no doubt in my mind - has been abused by many a shithead on the internet.
> 
> "Why buy the game when the free shit is right _there_? It's not like they're losing anything."
> 
> It's pretty short-term thinking and is almost as twisted as the ludicrous DLC related measure companies are using to secure funds.



It exists because people can't buy the material due to the lack of money. The major corporations can afford it but the common person to the poor can't they are having a tough time trying to make ends meet and hope they don't lose their job and there are those who are forced to be jobless because no job wants to consider hiring them or giving them a chance to work.


----------



## Hunted by sister (Nov 21, 2011)

Shirker said:


> "Why buy the game when the free shit is right _there_? It's not like they're losing anything, anyway."


I personally think of it as an investment. If a studio makes a game I like, I'll buy it to support them, and that way they can fund their next title I might enjoy. As long as they don't make a bad game or a bad decision that will make me boycott the game, the wheel will keep turning.

//HbS


----------



## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> I personally think of it as an investment. If a studio makes a game I like, I'll buy it to support them, and that way they can fund their next title I might enjoy. As long as they don't make a bad game or a bad decision that will make me boycott the game, the wheel will keep turning.
> 
> //HbS



You know I like how you think and I agree with ya though my problem is being jobless no job willing to hire me so I can go out and support such games and other media.


----------



## Velocity (Nov 21, 2011)

vernamon said:


> Indeed true and yet go and look at what the companies are trying to get the government to do. This bill passes I do hope for a revolution to be in affect to rid the world of such corporate and government greed.



Piracy is motivated entirely by greed too, y'know. You want something, don't want to pay for it and just take it. In the end, this entire conflict is greed. Everyone is greedy, that's all. The shareholders want everyone to basically pay them for every product made by the companies they own and see every pirated copy of a game as a lost sale. The pirates don't want to pay for anything but still want all the same products and features without any form of attempts at reducing piracy.

It's just a circle of greed. That's where there is no good guy or bad guy in this conflict - both sides are wrong.


----------



## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Aji Tae said:


> Piracy is motivated entirely by greed too, y'know. You want something, don't want to pay for it and just take it. In the end, this entire conflict is greed. Everyone is greedy, that's all. The shareholders want everyone to basically pay them for every product made by the companies they own and see every pirated copy of a game as a lost sale. The pirates don't want to pay for anything but still want all the same products and features without any form of attempts at reducing piracy.
> 
> It's just a circle of greed. That's where there is no good guy or bad guy in this conflict - both sides are wrong.



I get your point but all this is due to corporations being greedy with high cost and wanting so much more filling their pockets and the poor can't pay anything for not having money for the basic needs. In short the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.


----------



## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> They are stupid thinking it would benefit them.
> Censoring 99% of the internet would get so much worldwide hate they would tank even harder than before.
> And it's fairly obvious they are the sole forces behind this bill.
> What's next going to take my eardrums for not paying to listen to their music, how about my eyes want those too?!



Thats what its coming down to and its only going to get worse. I got a feeling if things don't get any better we are probably going to be on the verge of some kind of revolution.


----------



## Hunted by sister (Nov 21, 2011)

vernamon said:


> You know I like how you think and I agree with ya though my problem is being jobless no job willing to hire me so I can go out and support such games and other media.


Thanks. I had a similar problem, but I just... started working. You don't have to get a full-blown job to fund games, I just did small (mainly tech) favours when I was a teen, a little tutoring too, etc etc. I had to be wicked careful with managing my cash, though, I had little of it. Started buying games from smallest (indie) developers, who I thought would need sales the most, and then moved on to bigger and bigger titles as I got better at earning money. 

//HbS


----------



## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> Thanks. I had a similar problem, but I just... started working. You don't have to get a full-blown job to fund games, I just did small (mainly tech) favours when I was a teen, a little tutoring too, etc etc. I had to be wicked careful with managing my cash, though, I had little of it. Started buying games from smallest (indie) developers, who I thought would need sales the most, and then moved on to bigger and bigger titles as I got better at earning money.
> 
> //HbS



Your welcome. I get money randomly from my parents thats my only income other than having to rely on foodstamps. I've been trying to find any kind of work but with this economy its been a total no go.


----------



## Rama (Nov 21, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> They are stupid thinking it would benefit them.
> Censoring 99% of the internet would get so much worldwide hate they would tank even harder than before.
> And it's fairly obvious they are the sole forces behind this bill.
> What's next going to take my eardrums for not paying to listen to their music, how about my eyes want those too?!



Yes I know, but they are not thinking about the collateral damage or don't care. The only thing they are thinking is no piracy= mo money. I hope people come to their senses *and act*, because many people in Congress know this is fucked up but they are given a little extra campaign money to shut up.


----------



## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Piracy actually helps get products better known and keeps the good ol stuff from back in the day to live on into today.


----------



## Shirker (Nov 21, 2011)

Esura said:


> Where the hell did you get that conclusion from?



The very post I replied to in that comment. Plus, memory of other comments on this forum, plus a metric ton of similar toned comments in another forum that shall remain unnamed.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 21, 2011)

vernamon said:


> Piracy actually helps get products better known and keeps the good ol stuff from back in the day to live on into today.


Older gen games I love those man.
Just getting into ps1 era myself.


----------



## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Older gen games I love those man.
> Just getting into ps1 era myself.



Its all thanks to piracy and all them developers for emulators. Its the only way to keep them old games alive and some yea are trying to get onto some systems like the wii but they don't have every single game out there. I just wish the PS3 would go back to be being compatible with PS2 games.


----------



## Shirker (Nov 21, 2011)

vernamon said:


> Piracy actually helps get products better known and keeps the good ol stuff from back in the day to live on into today.



This I can't dispute. As little as I use roms, if they didn't exist, I could never play Sonic Shuffle again. Freakin' con artists at Amazon selling it used want 70 bucks for it....


----------



## Gnome (Nov 21, 2011)

I saw a used copy of FF7 at PAX for $90, I wanted to go up and laugh at the friend running the booth.


----------



## vernamon (Nov 21, 2011)

Gnome said:


> I saw a used copy of FF7 at PAX for $90, I wanted to go up and laugh at the friend running the booth.



Back when I was out in a different state there was a pawn shop that wanted $60 for it too much but then again look at how good the game is and how old too.


----------



## Gnome (Nov 21, 2011)

A brand new copy $90 is a steal, but when used it's like being robbed blind. Half the time used PS1 games don't even work on one of the four discs, and it's not like they can check for it if the scratch is 50 hours into the game.


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Nov 21, 2011)

Oman said:


> *You're arguing semantics*.  Piracy, if you want to be strict, is copyright infringement.  It's still illegal and wrong in the same sense that copying a DVD that you paid for and distributing it on the street for free would be illegal and wrong.
> 
> Don't take this as me supporting Protect IP/SOPA, I just want to get the point across that you can't justify piracy.



Semantics. A Pirate's best friend.

I don't understand why they can't admit that they just want free shit. That's all it is. They want something, and they take it for free, because they can.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Nov 21, 2011)

Corporations support corporate dominance? Do tell


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 22, 2011)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> , bro.
> 
> Not to mention, I actually bought Skyrim. I think Bethesda won't mind me altering an image for non-profit reasons, when I'm actually supporting them.


See "Amount & substantiality"
Not that much altered in you sig.
But it's up to the company really if they feel like assholes or not.
Because lets be frank that CAN invoke copyright on you despite the fact that you are supporting them and not gaining any profit.
It's done on youtube all the time man. 
“Much of the unprecedented economic growth of the past ten years can actually be credited to the doctrine of fair use, as the Internet itself depends on the ability to use content in a limited and unlicenced manner." 
And guess what companies are supporting.
Needless to say it's stupid.


----------



## Hunted by sister (Nov 22, 2011)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Semantics. A Pirate's best friend.
> 
> I don't understand why they can't admit that they just want free shit. That's all it is. They want something, and they take it for free, because they can.


Because we wouldn't buy it afterwards if it's good enough  for fuck sake, what! I have like 200 games and DLCs, like 250 movies on DVDs, some Blu-Rays, over a thousand music albums. Do you know how many I pirated before purchase? Almost all of them! If I just wanted free shit, why would I buy them? 

Do you even read what other people are saying here? 

And your signature does not fall under fair use.

//HbS


----------



## Kaitou (Nov 22, 2011)

Llol, what the fuck is this shit? Fucking stupid.


----------



## Shirker (Nov 22, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> Because we wouldn't buy it afterwards if it's good enough  for fuck sake, what! I have like 200 games and DLCs, like 250 movies on DVDs, some Blu-Rays, over a thousand music albums. Do you know how many I pirated before purchase? Almost all of them! If I just wanted free shit, why would I buy them?
> 
> Do you even read what other people are saying here?
> 
> ...



Again Sis, you can't use personal experience to gauge the general, and generally, a lot of people just want free stuff. Hell, we have a living example of that lurking around this very forum somewhere. He/she shall remain nameless, of course. Semiotic is a bit abrasive when he/she types, but let's face it....


----------



## Superrazien (Nov 22, 2011)

Really if this bill passes I think it will be the final straw. If it passes I think the whole occupy movement will get violent, and fuck I'll lead the dam thing if I have to. Try taking away what little freedoms we have, time to take it back with payment of blood.


----------



## CrazyMoronX (Nov 22, 2011)

Superrazien said:


> Really if this bill passes I think it will be the final straw. If it passes I think the whole occupy movement will get violent, and fuck I'll lead the dam thing if I have to. Try taking away what little freedoms we have, time to take it back with payment of blood.



So you think that a bunch of fat Internet nerds will leave their parents' basements, join a political movement, and become violent?


----------



## Superrazien (Nov 22, 2011)

CrazyMoronX said:


> So you think that a bunch of fat Internet nerds will leave their parents' basements, join a political movement, and become violent?



Everyone uses the internet, not just fat nerds. Besides its the principle of the matter, even people who don't use the internet would join. And it doesn't take much to turn anything violent. All it takes is one high profile death.


----------



## vernamon (Nov 22, 2011)

CrazyMoronX said:


> So you think that a bunch of fat Internet nerds will leave their parents' basements, join a political movement, and become violent?



Its possible considering this is the freedom of the internet we are talking about and the loss of many many jobs. Its time to take back full control of our freedom we were naturally born with.


----------



## CrazyMoronX (Nov 22, 2011)

I think it's more likely that everyone will roll over and take it in the ass.

Just like we did for everything else.


----------



## MrChubz (Nov 22, 2011)

Superrazien said:


> Everyone uses the internet, not just fat nerds. Besides its the principle of the matter, even people who don't use the internet would join. And it doesn't take much to turn anything violent. *All it takes is one high profile death*.



In think you're on to something.

1) Kill someone.
2) Frame congressmen supporting this bill
3) Involve OWS.
4) ???
5) Profit


----------



## vernamon (Nov 22, 2011)

CrazyMoronX said:


> I think it's more likely that everyone will roll over and take it in the ass.
> 
> Just like we did for everything else.



True that is the major possibility we has human beings have lost so much in the last few hundred years of recent times of today.


----------



## vernamon (Nov 22, 2011)

MrChubz said:


> In think you're on to something.
> 
> 1) Kill someone.
> 2) Frame congressmen supporting this bill
> ...



let me in when creating a better uncorruptable  system. I'm sick and tired of all governments screwing the true king over.


----------



## MrChubz (Nov 22, 2011)

What we need is a new Continental congress, a guy named John Adams, the DoI, Robert E. Lee, and lots of tanks. I also bet that if we play our cards right we can get air support from NATO.


----------



## vernamon (Nov 22, 2011)

MrChubz said:


> What we need is a new Continental congress, a guy named John Adams, the DoI, Robert E. Lee, and lots of tanks. I also bet that if we play our cards right we can get air support from NATO.



Thats only to help get us where we need to be for a better ideal government giving freedom and power back to the people. In a way the idea I have is joining what works from several different forms and putting them together and somehow end corporate greed. That and when you buy shit you get to do whatever the hell you want without having to worry about things like this so long as you give credit to the ones who made the content in the first place. And also this government that should be created allows for anyone who's got ideas to run as a canidate and no long term continuous elections no electoral vote either the way things are setup now its a load of BS setup specifically where every popularity vote counts instead of the electoral votes that is setup. I don't vote because it don't matter its upon however this stupid electoral vote is.


----------



## Hunted by sister (Nov 22, 2011)

Shirker said:


> Again Sis, you can't use personal experience to gauge the general, and generally, a lot of people just want free stuff. Hell, we have a living example of that lurking around this very forum somewhere. He/she shall remain nameless, of course. Semiotic is a bit abrasive when he/she types, but let's face it....


I am not taking only myself in the account, I considered every person I know personally, or know the approach. There sometimes also are polls on various websites... I tend to remember which option got the most votes. I used myself as an example, because it was easiest to get the numbers right.

//HbS


----------



## Hellrasinbrasin (Nov 22, 2011)

... Are you Ready for a WAR! 

Strap yourselves in we're Hitting The Grid.


----------



## vernamon (Nov 22, 2011)

Hellrasinbrasin said:


> ... Are you Ready for a WAR!
> 
> Strap yourselves in we're Hitting The Grid.



I wouldn't be too surprised honestly that is hoping that nearly a good majority of americans actually stand up and march themselves to washington's front doors and knock them down along with every other governmental building.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 22, 2011)

That's not going to happen. Barely anyone will realise what happened until it's too late, and a new ass-violating law will be in the making. American people are like that. I could copy-paste that other post of mine... it's sad, really. Who's going to give them a push? Us, Europeans? That'd be extremely ironic to me.

//HbS


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## vernamon (Nov 22, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> That's not going to happen. Barely anyone will realise what happened until it's too late, and a new ass-violating law will be in the making. American people are like that. I could copy-paste that other post of mine... it's sad, really. Who's going to give them a push? Us, Europeans? That'd be extremely ironic to me.
> 
> //HbS



Indeed true considering its not even on the news and any laws they make are never heard of. Where's the next best country and i'm gonna need help getting there asap.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 22, 2011)

We, Polish, have hundreds of years of experience in fighting oppression 

//HbS


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## vernamon (Nov 22, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> We, Polish, have hundreds of years of experience in fighting oppression
> 
> //HbS



How much better is it there than here? I so want outta here yet no money to do so. America has lost all respect ever since it began.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 22, 2011)

SOPA = Sons Of the Patriots Act.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 22, 2011)

vernamon said:


> How much better is it there than here? I so want outta here yet no money to do so. America has lost all respect ever since it began.


Actually, Poland fucking sucks... we're starting to boil here. Sooner or later we'll fucking shank all our politicians. Even though they're just bad at what they're doing, they're not even trying to screw us over on top of that.

//HbS


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## vernamon (Nov 22, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> Actually, Poland fucking sucks... we're starting to boil here. Sooner or later we'll fucking shank all our politicians. Even though they're just bad at what they're doing, they're not even trying to screw us over on top of that.
> 
> //HbS



Ouch. Maybe one of these days people will rally up together in different countries and make a better government overall thats better for the people give their rights back to them.


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## Inuhanyou (Nov 24, 2011)




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## Minh489 (Nov 24, 2011)

More News. Rejoice?


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## vernamon (Nov 24, 2011)

We need to kill any bills that deal with our rights of the usage of the net. We must not allow these corporations to control us we control them. We need to put them all in their place WE are the kings not them.


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## Shirker (Nov 24, 2011)

Minh489 said:


> More News. Rejoice?



Kinda bittersweet. They're not outright saying "F--k the bill" as they are just saying "F--k the wording". Still, it's a step in the right direction.


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## vernamon (Nov 24, 2011)

Shirker said:


> Kinda bittersweet. They're not outright saying "F--k the bill" as they are just saying "F--k the wording". Still, it's a step in the right direction.



I'd say F--k it all and don't come up with anything of the like. Hell the copyright laws are outright ridiculous. Once an item is bought its up to the individual what the hell they do with it so long as credit is given where credit is due if not ok trouble must be made to the person whom didn't give some kind of effort to credit the originator. Who know's what they will come up with next. For all we know they could ban you from wearing their cloths because in a way its piracy they aren't making anymore money. We need to storm them all let them know who's the boss around here. The Customer is ALWAYS right.


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 24, 2011)

The problem with wording is that they're basicly going to sneak through the worst parts, instead of making it publicly known.

//HbS


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## vernamon (Nov 24, 2011)

Hunted by sister said:


> The problem with wording is that they're basicly going to sneak through the worst parts, instead of making it publicly known.
> 
> //HbS



and thats exactly what they are going to be doing its how it ALWAYS is and it has got to stop yet too many people won't stand up for their natural born rights. I don't care if I sound crazy but it has got to be done or its only going to continue. Makes me to be ashamed to be alive in this day in age whatever happened to the old way of thinking of fighting for our rights and not allowing governments to do whatever they want. Why not allow the people decide what goes to law and not some select few individuals. There's so much more in my head for the perfect system if allowed to be born and grow.


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## Ibb (Nov 24, 2011)

Just discovered this thread.

I wasn't worried until I remembered that the US PATRIOT ACT was given a four year extension by Obama.

If worst comes to worst and this bill IS passed and the internet because so overly censored to the point where it isn't fun anymore I'll just stop using it. I've got books I could be reading.



Hunted by sister said:


> The problem with wording is that they're basicly going to sneak through the worst parts, instead of making it publicly known.
> 
> //HbS



^This. No way this bill would happen if it was being legitimate about its motivations. It's a scam. A scam that our government it trying to pull on itself.

This bill is gross and sickening not just in what it is trying to do but also how it is trying to do it.


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## Lord Yu (Nov 24, 2011)

The internet CANNOT be censored. It would knock humanity back twenty years and could very well lead to another economic disaster.


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## vernamon (Nov 24, 2011)

Lord Yu said:


> The internet CANNOT be censored. It would knock humanity back twenty years and could very well lead to another economic disaster.



It already is a disaster it just make it even worse than what it already is. I can't get work can't get help other than foodstamps i'm living on which is lucky, Already screwed since I won't be able to retire because of the fact I can't get a job. I was screwed as soon as I left HighSchool back in 2008.


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## vernamon (Nov 24, 2011)

is saying now:



The Internet Censorship Bill took a massive beating last week (yeah, you did that!) but drug companies, movie studios and the Chamber of Commerce do *not* go down easy.

Now-- get this-- they're telling Congress it's a "jobs" bill.

This is dangerous.  Everyone in Congress is desperate to do something to create jobs.  Now the most powerful lobbies in Washington are banging down their doors, saying "this is your (only) chance to pass a jobs bill."

Since Congress is away for the holiday, there's one priority: sign up  as many people as possible for a massive call-in day when Congress returns.

Click here to join in, by committing to call your Senator

Since the House's "SOPA" has such a bad name (yes, you did that) lobbyists are moving their weight behind the Senate version, PIPA ("The PROTECT IP Act"). The Senate's censorship bill is just as bad; it's only missing a few of SOPA's extra-crazy provisions, like the ones that could send you to jail for singing a pop song on YouTube.  The website blocking provisions are all there.  Still, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid thinks that with the attention on SOPA, he can sneak PIPA through quickly when Congress returns.

Reid needs to know this bill won't move forward without a fight.  That's why we're organizing a call-in day for Tuesday, using the same tools that our heroes at Tumblr used last week.  It's kind of perfect.  While Congress rests we've got 5 full days to sign up friends, colleagues, Twitter followers-- everybody.  Then on Tuesday we'll unleash a storm of phone calls.

Click here to sign up, and then get others signed up too.

This weekend, instead of nobly vegging out on the internet, you can fight for the future of the internet and freedom of speech.  Every ounce of time you spend counts.  

Signups now, phone calls Tuesday.  Start your engines.

Holmes Wilson
Fight for the Future / AmericanCensorship.org

P.S. Are you a Tumblr user?  We just put up a special section with extra-easy instructions for Tumblr users to add a "Stop Censorship" button to their site:  






This was a recent email that was sent to me about this bill and I can see where they would be trying their best to push this bill through.


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## vernamon (Nov 24, 2011)

*"jobs" bill now!?*

 is saying now:



The Internet Censorship Bill took a massive beating last week (yeah, you did that!) but drug companies, movie studios and the Chamber of Commerce do *not* go down easy.

Now-- get this-- they're telling Congress it's a "jobs" bill.

This is dangerous.  Everyone in Congress is desperate to do something to create jobs.  Now the most powerful lobbies in Washington are banging down their doors, saying "this is your (only) chance to pass a jobs bill."

Since Congress is away for the holiday, there's one priority: sign up  as many people as possible for a massive call-in day when Congress returns.

Click here to join in, by committing to call your Senator

Since the House's "SOPA" has such a bad name (yes, you did that) lobbyists are moving their weight behind the Senate version, PIPA ("The PROTECT IP Act"). The Senate's censorship bill is just as bad; it's only missing a few of SOPA's extra-crazy provisions, like the ones that could send you to jail for singing a pop song on YouTube.  The website blocking provisions are all there.  Still, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid thinks that with the attention on SOPA, he can sneak PIPA through quickly when Congress returns.

Reid needs to know this bill won't move forward without a fight.  That's why we're organizing a call-in day for Tuesday, using the same tools that our heroes at Tumblr used last week.  It's kind of perfect.  While Congress rests we've got 5 full days to sign up friends, colleagues, Twitter followers-- everybody.  Then on Tuesday we'll unleash a storm of phone calls.

Click here to sign up, and then get others signed up too.

This weekend, instead of nobly vegging out on the internet, you can fight for the future of the internet and freedom of speech.  Every ounce of time you spend counts.  

Signups now, phone calls Tuesday.  Start your engines.

Holmes Wilson
Fight for the Future / AmericanCensorship.org

P.S. Are you a Tumblr user?  We just put up a special section with extra-easy instructions for Tumblr users to add a "Stop Censorship" button to their site:  






This was a recent email that was sent to me about this bill and I can see where they would be trying their best to push this bill through.


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## Violent-nin (Nov 24, 2011)

There's always some stupid nonsense going on like this in America. 

Either way this retarded bill needs to be stopped.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 24, 2011)

vernamon said:


> is saying now:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Hunted by sister (Nov 24, 2011)

Fun fact - PIPA is one of the Polish words for CUNT 

//HbS


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## Hellrasinbrasin (Nov 24, 2011)

My head hurts from reading the article make the stupid stop -- pleaaaaseeeee'.


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## MrChubz (Nov 24, 2011)

I read the article until I said companies are spinning this as a jobs bill and realized the congressmen didn't punch the lobbiests in the face. Some days you wish OWS didn't start out full retard.


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## Ibb (Nov 24, 2011)

Okay, the more I learn about this bill the worse it gets.

Economic disaster doesn't even begin to cover what the effects of this bill will cause. We're talking GLOBAL ECONOMIC DISASTER! It isn't just the U.S. that's going down with this.

Yeah, I'll sign up.



vernamon said:


> It already is a disaster it just make it even worse than what it already is. I can't get work can't get help other than foodstamps i'm living on which is lucky, Already screwed since I won't be able to retire because of the fact I can't get a job. I was screwed as soon as I left HighSchool back in 2008.



Consider joining the army/air force/navy, if you're really in trouble.

I'm going into the Air Force this January.

EDIT: Okay, I signed up for the E-mail to stop this law.


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## Inuhanyou (Nov 24, 2011)

Lol "jobs bill" yet we don't even get actual jobs bills  amazing


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## MrChubz (Nov 24, 2011)

Apparently the 10 guys that will be hired by the cyberpolice to enforce the bill warrant jobs bill status.


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## vernamon (Nov 24, 2011)

Ibb said:


> Okay, the more I learn about this bill the worse it gets.
> 
> Economic disaster doesn't even begin to cover what the effects of this bill will cause. We're talking GLOBAL ECONOMIC DISASTER! It isn't just the U.S. that's going down with this.
> 
> ...



i've tried I have complications that will not allow me to join and trust me when I said I tried. I had to go get myself checked out by a doctor because one of them at the recruiting office that checked me over said I might have asthma.


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## Butcher (Nov 25, 2011)

China tried this once didn't they?

If I remember correctly they failed horribly.


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## Awesome (Nov 25, 2011)

Butcher said:


> China tried this once didn't they?
> 
> If I remember correctly they failed horribly.



They also have something called The Great Firewall of China.

Much worse than this.


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