# Itachi vs Kimimaro



## FlamingRain (Mar 31, 2014)

Cuz why not?

_*Restrictions/Stipulations:*_ Itachi cannot use the Mangekyō Sharingan or any of his other Genjutsu abilities.
_*Knowledge:*_ Manga.
_*Battlefield:*_ Hidden Leaf Forest Clearing
_*Starting Distance:*_ 50 meters
_*State of Mind:*_ IC


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## Kazekage94 (Mar 31, 2014)

I was going to make a thread like this lol.


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## Garcher (Mar 31, 2014)

Itachi rapes so hard, it's more disgusting than funny.


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## Cognitios (Mar 31, 2014)

Kimimaro takes this. 
Itachi's Katons are not doing much to Kimi's mass durability and Shurikens aren't doing shit.
Kimi is a perfect counter for a glass cannon like Itachi, especially with his mass AoE Bone Forest.
All Itachi has other than that is Suitons, which are doing less than Katons to Kimi.


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## animeboy1 (Mar 31, 2014)

Itachi lacks the firepower to down him, in this scenario. A weak Kimimaro could survive the onslaught of SRA Gaara. 

Kimimaro wins- Nikushimi & Aikuro


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## animeboy1 (Mar 31, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> Itachi rapes so hard, it's more disgusting than funny.



Oh, you've already posted. What a coincidence.


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## Cognitios (Mar 31, 2014)

> Itachi rapes so hard, it's more disgusting than funny.


Implying Itachi has anything in his base arsenal more powerful than Gaara's Massive Sand Burial.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 31, 2014)

Itachi has a speed advantage, but not a massive one. He can't outright blitz Kimimaro in my opinion, and even in instances where he does manage to do so, he can't do any damage to him with basic taijutsu or weapons. I don't think katon or explosive clones would do much to Kimimaro either. Kimimaro is also evasive enough to escape those kind of techniques.

Likewise Kimimaro can't do any more than land a few scratches on Itachi. That said, Sawarabi no Mai could end Itachi if he's not careful. He can easily dodge the initial bone protrusions, but once Kimimaro starts appearing from different directions, Itachi could very well find himself in a position where he can't dodge. He would have to rely on Kage Bunshin Kawarimi. Kimimaro may die of his illness before he manages to do that, though.

I don't see Itachi running out of chakra quickly whenever he isn't using the MS. Even the regular sharingan is being used quite sparingly.

I give it to Itachi about 7/10 times, though if Kimimaro doesn't die of illness soon after erecting his bone forest, he may finish Itachi off after forcing him into the air.​​


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## Cognitios (Mar 31, 2014)

> I don't see Itachi running out of chakra quickly whenever he isn't using the MS. Even the regular sharingan is being used quite sparingly.


What do you mean? Itachi almost never has his sharingan off.
Especially if he is going to fight in a taijutsu fight.


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## Legendary Itachi (Mar 31, 2014)

Normal Sharingan has minimal effect on Itachi's Uchiha body compared to the MS.

This comes down to who outlasts who since Kimimaro will never hit Itachi while Itachi lacks tools to kill Kimimaro.


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## Lawrence777 (Mar 31, 2014)

Base Itachi'll be beating him pretty decisively until he creates bone forest + melds in. [1]Really wouldn't be surprised if Kimi while melded in that giant bone forest fights at ~ mid kage level.


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## Bonly (Mar 31, 2014)

Itachi outlast Kimi then takes him down. Kimi isn't likely going to land a fatal blow Itachi in the first exchange and from then on Itachi would just dodge and outlast while attacking from a distance.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 31, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> What do you mean? Itachi almost never has his sharingan off.
> Especially if he is going to fight in a taijutsu fight.



Well for one (QFT) :



Legendary Itachi said:


> Normal Sharingan has minimal effect on Itachi's Uchiha body compared to the MS.



Also, Itachi has a 4.5 in taijutsu, so even without the sharingan he's capable of tangoing with Kimimaro in CQC. The sharingan will make life a lot easier, but its not absolutely vital to his survival, so it doesn't need to be activate all the time.​​


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## IchLiebe (Mar 31, 2014)

Kimi takes this easily.

He can sprout bones from all over his body, kept up with drunk Lee and has good reactions.

Itachi will get caught by a bone or two then kimi will capitalize on it and finish him off.

Restrict CS2 and we might have a fight.


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## Kazekage94 (Mar 31, 2014)

All Itachi has is Taijustu in this match. He is basically nothing
He is not beating Kimimaro


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## Nikushimi (Mar 31, 2014)

I'm sorry, but this match is retarded.

Itachi effortlessly blitzes, kicks the shit out of Kimi, and then roasts him to a charred grease stain.

Gaara was able to avoid Sawarabi no Mai. Lee was able to compete with Kimimaro's base form without even using Gates and avoid taking serious damage from the other dances. Itachi is mind-blowingly faster than those two and has three-tomoe Sharingan to supplement that advantage with lucid reaction time that probably wouldn't even register in Kimimaro's mind as more than a blink.

For God's sake, the man was stepping with Killer B and KCM Naruto at the same time. He absolutely humiliates Kimimaro and then torches his ass down to calcium dust with the same Katon that inflicted pain on Hachibi flesh (which was shown to endure a dip in the Yonbi's lava).


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## Cord (Apr 1, 2014)

Itachi's repertoire in base is rather weak. The only firepower he holds in hopes of defeating Kimimaro's _Shikotsumyaku_ is his Katon (and its variants). I'm not even sure how that will fair against the latter's defense that's seemingly insurmountable against puny attacks and given that it withstood Gaara's destructive sand crushes. More so that Katons can be avoided by someone with a considerable speed level quite easily.

Nonetheless, Itachi is still much faster and more reflexive between the two. So he should be able to outmaneuver Kimimaro, with the only problem being on how he's going to kill him . But the same case also applies to Kimimaro. While he can skirmish with his opponent for a while, I'd doubt that he can land a blow on Itachi - simply due to him being the faster combatant, along with his clever bunshin tricks.

Now, Kimimaro's _Shikotsumyaku_ from what we've seen, is seemingly perfect in combating and defending from blunt attacks. It had also effectively parried a Samurai's sword that was bolstered with chakra. However, none among those instances implicated that it's not vulnerable to piercing attacks. It can counter them, sure, but it doesn't translate to it being impossible to overcome, unlike in the case of blunt attacks.

Out-speeding _Shikotsumyaku_ is something that neither Lee nor Gaara were able to accomplish, which Itachi *might* be capable of achieving due to his adeptness in that category while having an appropriate tool to best it (with a kunai) and hit Kimimaro where he's most susceptible all at the same time. 

My only qualm is on how Itachi will elude the stakes of _Sawarabi No Mai_ once Kimimaro draws it out. After all, Gaara and Lee were only able to survive it due to the former's flight ability (which Itachi doesn't have). Even then, they didn't completely overcame it as Kimimaro was never truly defeated until he succumbed to his illness.

Calling a 50-50 on this.

**


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 1, 2014)

Is Kimimaro healthy or sick?


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## Cord (Apr 1, 2014)

Ah yeah, that wasn't considered. I just assumed that it's Kimimaro without disease as that's usually the preferred state whenever he's pitted against high tiers (at least based on his previous matches here in the BD).


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## Ghost (Apr 1, 2014)

I don't see how Itachi won't just blitz him and stick a kunai in his face before Kimi can react.


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## Weapon (Apr 1, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Cuz why not?
> 
> _*Restrictions/Stipulations:*_ Itachi cannot use the Mangekyō Sharingan or any of his other Genjutsu abilities.



If it's Healthy Kimmimaro, then those restrictions make it a stomp for him. 

If not, then basically Itachi needs to hold out 10 minutes against the Kimmimaro we saw and he wins. Which he is probably capable of doing so.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 1, 2014)

Health makes a huge difference.  Sick Kimi can be annoying, but he's going to die.  Sick Kimi can't push himself as hard as he needs to for as long as he needs to to compete at Itachi's level.  Sick or healthy Itachi also matters if Kimimaro is healthy, because a healthy Kimi has a lot of endurance and defence that's going to make sick Itachi's relatively low stamina run out before he's killed.

Speaking on Itachi, he's going to have a hard time killing Kimimaro.  He's got a 4.5 in speed, a 5.0 in taijutsu with a style that's told by Lee to be sophisticated, beautiful, and highly advanced, and we know from his fights with Neji that the quality of style counts just as much, if not more, than how good respective fighters at different styles.  Itachi is reflexive and fast, with good taijutsu himself, and can pretty much hold his own with anyone in a taijutsu clash, but it will probably be a case of Killer Bee's seven sword style vs kunai all over again.  Wherein Itachi can successfully keep away from him and fend off his blows on retreat, but can't actually break up his attack flow or go much in the way of offensive.  Say what you will about genin Lee, but in terms of sheer speed and taijutsu, he was Jonin class, even if at the lower end, and Gaara basically said that once sick Kimi got serious, he would just die from a skirmish, even playing it safe as Gaara's back up.  (Lee had a 4 in speed and a 4 in taijutsu.  P1 Kakashi and Zabuza both had a 4 in speed, as did Shizune, and these are all people stated to be elite Jonin of the day.  To put a 4 in taijutsu into perspective, Kakashi and Itachi only have a 4.5, with the 5 stat being reserved for taijutsu masters like Guy and Kimimaro)  One final note on taijutsu and speed, is that Kimimaro's first stage cursed seal gave him a noted, and substantial boon to his speed.  Typically amazing boosts in speed don't happen until you've gotten a one tier boost, much like when Lee took off his weights to go from being a little fast for Sasuke, to disappearing before his sharingan.  But at the very least we could safely give him a .5 increase, and just say he has roof speed in cursed seal, which should leave Itachi with only his precognitive advantage, rather than a .5 speed and bullet time bonus.

Genjutsu is interesting.  I sort of feel that Kimi can willpower out of genjutsu he realizes is a genjutsu, since he has the fortitude to make a body that should be dead a long time ago, and be totally unable to move go out and fight on with the power of love.  There probably isn't a mental binding or torture that could make Kimi feel worse or become more immobilized than his disease did.  Or however he must feel when he pulls out his spinal cord on top of his crippling disease, though perhaps his bloodline gives him pain blocking abilities that make it look more gruesome than it is.  For Battledome purposes, I won't criticize anyone who thinks Kimi would be put down by Itachi's genjutsu, I'm just very leery of it working.  Subtle, obscurantist type genjutsu might be a different story altogether, and you naturally can't free yourself of genjutsu you don't know is a genjutsu.  Much like how Bee wasn't aware of Itachi's subtle genjutsu, until Itachi told him he was in a genjutsu.  Though it should be said that Itachi's follow up was to throw shuriken at Bee, which I don't think would do much to him or a Kaguya, and once an opponent knows, it gets harder.  Assuming that Kimi's bone techniques do hurt him, he would have a natural and ongoing pain assistance with genjutsu breaking.

Outside of genjutsu and taijutsu, Itachi has ninjutsu.  He has water jutsu, which I don't think will play much of a role, and fire jutsu, which may.  Hosenka varients will hurt, as does all flaming steel being stuck into your chest, and they stuck into Bee's Hachibi hand, which he noted burned.  Unfortunately the Hachibi rates rather low on the durability scale, and has a bad history of getting skewered by shuriken, while Kimi has a history of making bones that can clash into chakra flowed storm trooper katanas.  Kimimaro has also displayed the ability to reform his flesh, even after it was torn off by Gaara's sand burials, and he also does a pretty good job of putting his blood vessels and nerve ending back together when he strips his bones from them.  So a strategy of defeating him by burning off his flesh with fireballs, or cutting his weak points with fire flowed shuriken to net a win, doesn't look very promising.  I certainly don't think they'd produce more impact, pain, or exterior damage than Gaara's sand coffin, or super sand burials, which Kimi walked through as if he were Voorheese.  

Finally we have the other questions, of how Itachi fares against Kimi's greater arsenal.  Which I think ranges from alright, to not well, and not well enough.  It is very clear to me that Itachi, even with his strongest jutsu restricted, can compete comfortably at the highest levels of the ninja world, barring Madara and Hashirama, and anyone who creates or comes from the moon.  But it's without his strongest jutsu that he falls into the same trap as Kakashi.  The one where you're too good to simply lose, but lack the power to finish fights.  So Itachi will fend off the taijutsu assaults, and he will dodge or match the finger bullets with shuriken, but he won't be able to continue as long as Kimimaro can, and even given the advantage, he doesn't have a way to seize the initiative in a way that will lead him to victory.  

Sawabi no mai is an interesting as well.  When Kimimaru used it on his death bed, it was slow enough that Gaara and Lee avoided it, even though it was a surprise attack.  What makes this interesting, is that Kabuto used it, it was fast and threatening enough that Itachi and Sasuke were being penned in by it, and the webbing of Kidomaru, and Susano slashes were used to stop it.  It was a sage enhanced technique, but so, to a lesser extent, would be a cursed seal produced bone forest, and I'd imagine Kimimaro's final card would be much faster and stronger if he were healthy, and it wasn't the last thing he did before dying.  Even if it wasn't though, his ability to meld with bones is particularly useful against the sharingan, and a fighter like Itachi who relies so heavily of evasion.  The evasion is easy to explaine.  He doesn't want to jump into bone spires, and if there are a lot of bone spires everwhere, it's going to reduce your agility.  Itachi isn't durable, so without Susano, he needs a clear field.  The second matter, is stealth.  Since every bone in the forest is made of, and contains Kimimaro's chakra, the sharingan can't see where in the field he is, or past the bones immediately in front of Itachi's face.  Itachi won't simply fall to this.  He has excellent reactions, and a wealth of experience, so he should be able to evade even sneak attacks.  But again, he can't evade all of them forever, especially when his mobility is hampered, and not when anywhere he lands is yet another perch his opponent can mold out of for another attack.  Most certainly not when his counter-attacks, that I'm sure he'll launch while he evade, are just as fruitless.  Itachi is on a higher level, but bereft of the tools he relies on to defeat special opponents like Kimimaro, on whom the standard ninja arsenal won't work, he has little chance of victory.  Unless you think genjutsu defeats Kimimaro completely, in which case Itachi may win, with a success rate of how well you see Kimimaru getting locked into eye contact.  But that's restricted anyway, so .


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## Turrin (Apr 1, 2014)

You know previously I would have said Itachi takes this hands down, but considering I recently found out stat totals are a thing, it appears that I may have underestimated Kimi; after all he does get a stat total of 30.5. That places him around the same level as Zabuza, which isn't necessary a level that "base" Itachi couldn't handle, but it's certainly a level that could at least put up a decent fight. However that's sick & "base" Kimi, take sickness away from him and his stats may rise and add CS1/CS2 power ups, and his stats should definitely rise. Ultimately a Healthy CS/CS2 Kimi may very well end up closer to Deidara's stat total; assuming CS1, CS2, and being a bit more healthy totals out to giving him even a half-tier increase in his physical stats; though in reality it could actually be a large increase than that. Than there is Kimi's overall favorable portrayal in the war-arc, both from his Edo performance and also Kabuto's usage of his Swarabi no Mi, which helps support that he might be pretty stronger when healthy and drawing on Senjutsu chakra.

I'm not sure I see "Base" Itachi, especially one restricted from using Genjutsu, being able to win against someone who might actually be >= Deidara level [while in CS/CS2]. Of course that is talking about a Healthy Kimi, against a Sick Kimi Itachi obviously wins


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## IchLiebe (Apr 1, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I'm sorry, but this match is retarded.
> 
> Itachi effortlessly blitzes, kicks the shit out of Kimi, and then roasts him to a charred grease stain.
> 
> ...



LOL. You know this is bullshit and you are making yourself look like a fucking idiot.

Stepping with Bee and Naruto? Shit Bee alone forced Itachi to retreat and take advantage of another shinobi that was already in distress. Naruto was casually talkin.g

Kimmis attacks are non-linear so Itachi will have a harder time tracking them and dodging. Lee is faster than Itachi(Lee has shwoed the feats, especially in p1) and Lee was even drunk, and just so you know Drunk Lee=GODpachi of bleach.

You know when you pick up a spoon and drop it saying "Damn thats quite hot" Yet you aren't burnt...kinda of the same thing. Also Balsam nails would just bounce of of Kimmi's stronger than steel bones. Or he can just counter them with finger pellets.


For God's sake, ITACHI HAS ABSOLUTELY GOD DAMN FUCKING *NOTHING* TO PUT KIMI DOWN.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 1, 2014)

saikyou said:


> I don't see how Itachi won't just blitz him and stick a kunai in his face before Kimi can react.



And Kimi's ultra hard bones break the kunai.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> You know previously I would have said Itachi takes this hands down, but considering I recently found out stat totals are a thing,



Since when did stat totals become "a thing"?



> it appears that I may have underestimated Kimi; after all he does get a stat total of 30.5. That places him around the same level as Zabuza, which isn't necessary a level that "base" Itachi couldn't handle, but it's certainly a level that could at least put up a decent fight. However that's sick & "base" Kimi, take sickness away from him and his stats may rise and add CS1/CS2 power ups, and his stats should definitely rise.



The Juin would only improve physical stats, like Power and Speed. It might even cut into his Stamina, unless mastering it takes away the strain of using the Juin's second stage.



> Ultimately a Healthy CS/CS2 Kimi may very well end up closer to Deidara's stat total; assuming CS1, CS2, and being a bit more healthy totals out to giving him even a half-tier increase in his physical stats; though in reality it could actually be a large increase than that. Than there is Kimi's overall favorable portrayal in the war-arc, both from his Edo performance and also Kabuto's usage of his Swarabi no Mi, which helps support that he might be pretty stronger when healthy and drawing on Senjutsu chakra.
> 
> I'm not sure I see "Base" Itachi, especially one restricted from using Genjutsu, being able to win against someone who might actually be >= Deidara level [while in CS/CS2]. Of course that is talking about a Healthy Kimi, against a Sick Kimi Itachi obviously wins



Kimimaro isn't anywhere near Deidara's level, nor does he have Deidara's Jutsu. And it's the Jutsu that make Deidara anything remotely resembling a threat to Itachi, not his "level."



IchLiebe said:


> LOL. You know this is bullshit and you are making yourself look like a fucking idiot.
> 
> Stepping with Bee and Naruto? Shit Bee alone forced Itachi to retreat and take advantage of another shinobi that was already in distress. Naruto was casually talkin.g
> 
> ...



[youtube]ygr5AHufBN4[/youtube]

Itachi is monstrously faster than Lee (5 vs. 4, respectively; as if kicking pre-skip Sasuke's ass weren't enough proof). Neither Naruto nor B were able to land a single hit on him, despite attempting to. He bakes Kimi alive with Goukakyuu (I said "same Katon," not "same Jutsu") and calls it a day.


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## Vice (Apr 1, 2014)

This thread again? Physically, what is Itachi able to do that Gaara's sand couldn't? 

Nothing. He ain't doing shit here without genjutsu.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 1, 2014)

Vice said:


> This thread again? Physically, what is Itachi able to do that Gaara's sand couldn't?
> 
> Nothing. He ain't doing shit here without genjutsu.



Itachi roasts Kimi with Katon.

Gaara's sand can't do that.


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## Turrin (Apr 1, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Since when did stat totals become "a thing"?
> .


Since Weapon translated a passage from DB I that indicated Kishi does consider stat totals a way to rank the Shinobi. 



> The Juin would only improve physical stats, like Power and Speed. It might even cut into his Stamina, unless mastering it takes away the strain of using the Juin's second stage.


We never saw Sasuke demonstrate straing from using CS2, so I think that is pretty safe assumption. And CS increase the strength of everything just like Senjutsu; it just increases it less than Senjutsu. However in Kimi's case we' mostly see the increases in Tai/Speed/Strength, as those are really the areas Kimi focuses on.



> Kimimaro isn't anywhere near Deidara's level, nor does he have Deidara's Jutsu. And it's the Jutsu that make Deidara anything remotely resembling a threat to Itachi, not his "level."


Deidara's abilities in general represent his "level". Whether Kimi is on Deidara's level or not I guess depends on how you view a few things:

A) Do you think Sickness is account for in the stats and if healthy Kimi would increase beyond the level his stats indicate in certain areas; or if sickness is left out entirely
B) How much CS/CS2-Earth enhances Kimi's abilities

Right now Kimi is 30.5, which places him around Zabuza, while Deidara is 32. So if CS/CS2-Earth and being less ill make up that 1.5 points than he should be around Deidara. 

As for Deidara's abilities vs Kimi's. Deidara's Jutsu are amazing, but when a novice [relatively speaking] is wielding, you end up with Ambush Squad fodderizing his ass [as far as i'm concerned Edo Kimi did better holding out against a KCM-Naruto clone till Edo-Tensei canceled than Deidara did]. So the wielder is more important anyway; no to mention Kishi really did not explore the depths of Kimi's abilities nor the Kaguya blood-line limit. What I mean by this is that we've never really seen any Jutsu actually get past Kimi's natural blood-line defense, and we've never seen what Kimi could do when healthy; perhaps making a Bone-Forest that's even more ridiculously massive in scale or as we kind of saw when Kimi was brought back as a Tensei him creating bone to erupt casually in small bursts. This on top of the fact that Kimi does have a 4 in Ninjutsu so it's unlikely that he doesn't know quite a few Ninjutsu outside of his kaguya bloodline.


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## Kazekage94 (Apr 1, 2014)

Lol like a Katon can't be dodged. 
Kim is not just going to stand there!


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## Nikushimi (Apr 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Since Weapon translated a passage from DB I that indicated Kishi does consider stat totals a way to rank the Shinobi.



Link me?



> We never saw Sasuke demonstrate straing from using CS2, so I think that is pretty safe assumption.




Then what was this?



> And CS increase the strength of everything just like Senjutsu; it just increases it less than Senjutsu. However in Kimi's case we' mostly see the increases in Tai/Speed/Strength, as those are really the areas Kimi focuses on.



But Senjutsu increases power; half the stats denote knowledge and proficiency.



> Deidara's abilities in general represent his "level". Whether Kimi is on Deidara's level or not I guess depends on how you view a few things:
> 
> A) Do you think Sickness is account for in the stats and if healthy Kimi would increase beyond the level his stats indicate in certain areas; or if sickness is left out entirely
> B) How much CS/CS2-Earth enhances Kimi's abilities
> ...



I'm pretty positive that Deidara could wipe out Zabuza and Kimimaro at the same time with next to no difficulty.



> As for Deidara's abilities vs Kimi's. Deidara's Jutsu are amazing, but when a novice [relatively speaking] is wielding, you end up with Ambush Squad fodderizing his ass [as far as i'm concerned Edo Kimi did better holding out against a KCM-Naruto clone till Edo-Tensei canceled than Deidara did].



The thing is, that is literally the only time Deidara performed poorly; because of that incident, people seem to have forgotten what a brilliant shinobi he was for the better half of part 2.

The way he captured Gaara and the shit he pulled when Kakashi's and Gai's teams were chasing him were not the kind of tactics a "novice" could pull off.



> So the wielder is more important anyway; no to mention Kishi really did not explore the depths of Kimi's abilities nor the Kaguya blood-line limit. What I mean by this is that we've never really seen any Jutsu actually get past Kimi's natural blood-line defense, and we've never seen what Kimi could do when healthy; perhaps making a Bone-Forest that's even more ridiculously massive in scale or as we kind of saw when Kimi was brought back as a Tensei him creating bone to erupt casually in small bursts. This on top of the fact that Kimi does have a 4 in Ninjutsu so it's unlikely that he doesn't know quite a few Ninjutsu outside of his kaguya bloodline.



The fact that he had so much trouble fighting pre-skip Gaara and Lee is all the proof anyone should need that he is nowhere near Deidara's level; Deidara almost fodderized a much older, stronger Gaara.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 1, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Lol like a Katon can't be dodged.
> Kim is not just going to stand there!



Itachi is faster than Kimimaro. Sasuke is, too, and Itachi hit him with a Katon.


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## Kazekage94 (Apr 1, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi is faster than Kimimaro. Sasuke is, too, and Itachi hit him with a Katon.



Using ABC logic isn't really viable. You of all people should know that.


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## Cognitios (Apr 1, 2014)

While I see Itachi's katon being an issue for base Kimi, I don't see it being much of an issue for CS1, which he can handle it, not come out unscathed, and in CS2 he doesn't feel a thing.


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## Turrin (Apr 1, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Link me?



Weapon 

"NDB: Hiden Rin no Sho Pg. 14

総合能力：その（???）の忍としての能力（パラメータ上での８項目）を総合して評価

True / Overall ability: (As it relates to the 8 points being scored) The Shinobi's ability according to 8 factors. Each evaluated separately and then summed up through combining the evaluations of each into one overall score.

My Kanji's horrible and there's a few I couldn't read / know so takL might correct this though but there you are.

 the total statistics [True Ability] is what Kishimoto wants you to consider for ranking / overall power purposes"

Gottheim,

Total Ability: An average notation. Take all 8 of the parameter scores (Nin; Tai; Gen...), make a total and divide to obtain a notation out of 5.



> Then what was this?


I was referring to Part II-Sasuke



> But Senjutsu increases power; half the stats denote knowledge and proficiency.


Senjutsu increases ones Nin, Tai, and Gen skills as well, it's been stated multiple times in the Manga and DB. Whether it increases them enough to warrant a raise in stats is unknown; when it comes to CS/CS2-Earth.



> I'm pretty positive that Deidara could wipe out Zabuza and Kimimaro at the same time with next to no difficulty.


What you think most of the time is not aligned with what the author is actually portraying. If Deidara could rape Ninja of Zabuza + Kimi's caliber combined Deidara wouldn't have been fodderized by the ambush-squad and on the verge of being defeated casually by Base-Hebi-Sasuke. Beyond that  DB-Stats would not place them [Zabuza & Kimi] as close to Deidara as they are [1.5 off]. 



> The thing is, that is literally the only time Deidara performed poorly; because of that incident, people seem to have forgotten what a brilliant shinobi he was for the better half of part 2.


The problem is that Deidara's performances are consistent.

Deidara in the ambush-squad battle lost because ambush-squad capitalized on the time when Deidara using his lower end C1 to defeat him. This is very much consistent with the Onoki battle where Onoki could have owned Deidara with Jinton before Deidara progressed beyond C1, if not for the danger Jinton posed to turtle island. This is very much consistent with the Hebi-Sasuke battle where, we see that Sasuke could have killed Deidara in the beginning when Deidara started off w/ C1. This is very much consistent with the Gaara battle where Gaara was WTFPWNING Deidara when he was just using C1.

Deidara consistently dicks around with C1 at the start of a match and it consistently result in him ether losing during this time period or come a hairs breath away from losing. To make matters worse, some time he doesn't even prep himself with clay, beyond a bit of C1, which is really bad.

Beyond that Deidara's best performance to date w/ help no less, is pushing a Hebi-Sasuke who wasn't even fighting with killer intent, which took him going all out and being ready to die to push Sasuke that far. That honestly is not that great of a performance; in-fact it's quite bad when we consider that Deidara specifically attempted to meta-game and develop counters & strategies to use specifically against Sharingan/Sharingan Genjutsu, and still lost. 

Looking at the difference between how Konan went about developing strategies to handle an even more deadly Sharingan user than Sasuke/Itachi [though not much in Itachi's case], vs how Deidara's attempt, it astonishing how bad Deidara looks in comparison - and that's Konan, whose not even a top Akatsuki like Orochimaru or Itachi.



> The way he captured Gaara and the shit he pulled when Kakashi's and Gai's teams were chasing him were not the kind of tactics a "novice" could pull off.


Against Gaara he took a gamble that Gaara would protect the village; a gamble which he later ADMITS [lol] the odds were stacked against him, considering he ADMITS [lol] past Jinchuuriki wouldn't have acted the way Gaara did. Essentially Deidara is saying he got really fucking lucky. So Is it a cool way for Deidara to win the match sure, but does it reflect Deidara being some amazing Ninja, no it doesn't. It reflects someone who made a desperation move and go lucky that it worked.

The Gai & Kakashi team thing is the most laughably overrate sequence of events, ever in the history of anything to do with the Naruto-manga. Deidara was able to clone fient because Kakashi was distracted by Naruto going berserk. Than Deidara clashed once with exhausted Tenten. Had his clone blow up, Kakashi warped it away, most likely to save the weaker Ninja...cough...Tenten...cough; that's it. Literally any Jonin with an AOE Jutsu could have done the same there without even breaking a sweat.



> The fact that he had so much trouble fighting pre-skip Gaara and Lee is all the proof anyone should need that he is nowhere near Deidara's level; /QUOTE]
> What trouble? Drunk Lee fought him in CQC for a bit, than got WTFPWND. Gaara used some sand attacks, which really didn't do anything to Kimi, than Kimi died from illness right before killing them both. I guess you can say those 2 manage to not get stomped, but that's about it.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 1, 2014)

Stat totals aren't very good.  Kishi inflates useless stats like  genjutsu and seals to inflate the totals of ninjas he wants to be "strong."  That's why people like Tsunade and Konan have high genjutsu stats, when they don't use any genjutsu, and why rookies got bumps .5 or 1 point increases to stats that are irrelevant to their fighting styles, so the databooks can portray the illusion of growth.  There's also a note in the databook that says the given stats are Kimi's healthy stats.  But the cursed seal seems to give him, more than other people, a large boost.  Particularly the speed boost in CS1.  CS2 actually makes him slower, but he gets to walk the dinosaur with it.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Apr 1, 2014)

So this is Itachi who can not use MS or any basic genjutsu variants? With this handicap kimmi destroys itachi with ease

Itachi base arsenal will only tickle kimmi at best. Serious rape thread


----------



## Turrin (Apr 1, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Stat totals aren't very good.  Kishi inflates useless stats like  genjutsu and seals to inflate the totals of ninjas he wants to be "strong."  That's why people like Tsunade and Konan have high genjutsu stats, when they don't use any genjutsu, and why rookies got bumps .5 or 1 point increases to stats that are irrelevant to their fighting styles, so the databooks can portray the illusion of growth.


Konan doesn't have DB-Stats, that i'm aware of. Tsunade's Genjutsu is just a 3.5, above average, but nothing out of this world. 

The rest of this I greatly disagree with. It's not that characters don't use these abilities, it's that we as readers only see a fraction of each characters arsenals, because most characters have a plethora of Jutsu/abilities and only choose the ones most applicable to each specific situation to utilize. Of course they also have specialities, that they use more frequently [For example Rarikiri for Kakashi], but the bluk of most shinobi arsenals  goes unseen by readers. Or to given an example; Orochimaru has 5 in Genjutsu, yet we haven't seen him cast a single illusion. Why is that? Because look at who Orochimaru has primarily fought in the manga; Dojutsu users, which would make using illusions a pretty poor decision; not to mention if his Genjutsu requires hand-seals he wouldn't have been able to even cast any post-Hiruzen duel. 

Also consider this, there are Ninja like Kakashi who have mastered 1,000 Jutsu or even Hiruzen who have mastered thousands of Jutsu. The average Jutsu pool for most characters is not going to be that expansive, but still is likely to be relatively large. Shinobi like Tsunade, Jiriaya, and Orochimaru probably number into the hundreds if not a thousand themselves. Yet out of the 2-3 battles they have gotten, we expect them to utilize all of their techniques. Come on now.

Plus ether way, if the author is trying to adjust stats to boost their "power", it still tells us the author wants us to see these characters as "that" stronger.



> There's also a note in the databook that says the given stats are Kimi's healthy stats.


I'm interested to know where this is, can you give me a link. Not doubting it just want to check it out.



> . But the cursed seal seems to give him, more than other people, a large boost. Particularly the speed boost in CS1. CS2 actually makes him slower, but he gets to walk the dinosaur with it.


Does CS2 make his speed go down, I thought that was a bad translation.


----------



## IchLiebe (Apr 1, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi is monstrously faster than Lee (5 vs. 4, respectively; as if kicking pre-skip Sasuke's ass weren't enough proof). Neither Naruto nor B were able to land a single hit on him, despite attempting to. He bakes Kimi alive with Goukakyuu (I said "same Katon," not "same Jutsu") and calls it a day.



No he is not. Itachi hasn't even shown anything to make him have a 5 in speed, yet Kimi has multiple times. And Katons haven't shown to put anyone down, a weak Katon from Itachi gets laughed at by the tank we know as Kimi.

Also Naruto and Bee only spared with Itachi and Bee forced him back and forced him to use MS. Itachi never had the advantage in that fight. Itachi wasn't able to land a single solid hit, while when Itachi evaded Samahada if Itachi were alive then he would've been chakra drained and it would've been over.

Naruto couldn't even land a hit on Kimi despite having a multitude of shadow clones.


Then what was this?

Then what was this?

Lee even says that he can't land a hit on him.  Like have you ever read Kimi's entire fight.

Im not aruging this any fucking more, you are on Itachi's dick so hard you can probably bite his balls. YOu only fucking excuse is a god damn katon and according to the manga Katons can't kill and don't cause serious injuries. We have even seen ninja take a katon point blank from Madara and not be seriously injured. We have seen Sasuke hit by a katon. And Itachi grand fire ball(which is the only thing that might hurt kimi in Itachi's arsenal) is too fucking slow to hit genins, much less the leader of the Sound 5.


Keep up your delusions Niku. Itachi is weak and thats a fact. Keep dreaming, because thats all you can do.


"Unpredicatable isn't it, this is my bloodline limit"-Kimmimaro.

Kimi can regenerate just like Wolverine or else he would be bleeding profusely and filled with holes, he did pull out his spine. then add that onto the fact that the bones can reduce impact forces.

Then what was this?


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 1, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> LOL. You know this is bullshit and you are making yourself look like a fucking idiot.
> 
> Stepping with Bee and Naruto? Shit Bee alone forced Itachi to retreat and take advantage of another shinobi that was already in distress. Naruto was casually talkin.g
> 
> ...



Part 1 Base Lee is not faster then Itachi.

If your going to be crazy at least say 5 Gates Lee is faster. As at least that one has a feat of playing ping pong with a persons body and being stated to be fast by Kakashi. 


Anyway Itachi stomps.


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## Vice (Apr 1, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Anyway Itachi stomps.



With what exactly?


----------



## Kazekage94 (Apr 1, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Part 1 Base Lee is not faster then Itachi.
> 
> If your going to be crazy at least say 5 Gates Lee is faster. As at least that one has a feat of playing ping pong with a persons body and being stated to be fast by Kakashi.
> 
> ...



5 Gate Lee>> Itachi in terms of speed. Itachi isnt quick enough to play ping pong with anyone.
How does Itachi stomp?


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## Rocky (Apr 1, 2014)

5th Gate Lee is faster than Itachi in terms of body movement, but Itachi can most likely still exceed his speed in short bursts with the Body Flicker.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 1, 2014)

Dofla- Show me some feats then.....


----------



## Veracity (Apr 1, 2014)

5th gated Lee doesn't even compare to Itachi lol. Blitzing PTS Gaara who isn't even aware of his massive speed burst amounts to nothing when compared to a high tiered Kage.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 1, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> 5th gated Lee doesn't even compare to Itachi lol. Blitzing PTS Gaara who isn't even aware of his massive speed burst amounts to nothing when compared to a high tiered Kage.



SHow me some feats then. I didn't even say 5th gated Lee, an unweighted Lee. And I was more or less getting at that Kimi was reacting to drunk Lee just fine. And Kimi did block the initial which greatly increases Lee's speed.


Can someone show me a feat of Itachi being faster than Lee and not just powerscaling.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 1, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> SHow me some feats then. I didn't even say 5th gated Lee, an unweighted Lee. And I was more or less getting at that Kimi was reacting to drunk Lee just fine. And Kimi did block the initial which greatly increases Lee's speed.
> 
> 
> Can someone show me a feat of Itachi being faster than Lee and not just powerscaling.



I wasnt taking specifically about you....

I just saw it more then once and posted in a general sense.

Itachi is also able to create Kage Bunshin fast enough trick the Sharingan. Casually spar with Hebi Sasuke( able to blitz Naruto, Yamato, Sai , and nearly Deidara) while on the brink of death . And probably many more but I have no interest in finding more or in the character itself.

Care to list some 5 gated Lee feats ? Actually you don't have to, he has one feat and that's blitzing PTS Gaara who wasn't even aware of his speed change. Lee isn't all that fast...


----------



## IchLiebe (Apr 1, 2014)

Again im not talking about gated Lee, and clones are useless against Kimi as was shown when fought off a multitude of Naruto clones with out being hit a single fucking tijme. That isn't a speed feat but reaction feat*s*.

Even if Itachi is faster than Lee, its still means nothing. Go back and read the kimi fight, the entire fight. Kimi is a fucking beast.


Don't get me wrong, Itachi is fast...but blindly fast...no. ANd from what Ive seen him do, he isn't worthy of a 5 in speed, maybe a 4.5 or 4.75 but not a solid 5, especially when other note-worthy speedsters have a 4 or 4.5.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 1, 2014)

^ If Kimimaro is sick, Itachi can play keep away and just outlast his illness. It doesn't matter how beast he is, he's basically a dead man walking. Itachi's fast and elusive enough to play the ultimate game of cat & mouse. 

Healthy Kimimaro would stomp this heavily restricted Itachi, though.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 1, 2014)

Go read when Gaara was trying to catch kimi, and Kimi had to close the distance. All the while Kimi was dodging and evading he was throwing multitudes of finger bullets.

Read from here on:
ninjutsu

Itachi is sick as well, and 10 minutes...no. Remember he fought Naruto for a lil bit, then sparred with Lee, then fought Gaara for a while, a long time actually if you take into account Kimi being buried, crushed...etc.

Orochimaru and Kabuto outright thought that he was invincible.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 1, 2014)

You think Kimimaro is fast enough to run down Itachi?

..and i don't think Itachi is sick. He looses if he is.


----------



## IchLiebe (Apr 1, 2014)

So you don't think Itachi is sick yet Kimi is, but yet OP states neither. Your to fucking biased if you are going to say Itachi is healthy and Kimi is sick and thus you prove your delusions.

Well if Itachi keeps running away, then that would be a forfeit imo. But if Kimi can't run him down he can just use bone forest then get Itachi. Or he gets finger bullets in his back.


So far the only thing Itachi fans can come up with is:
1. Katons -lolworthy at best
2. Run away - lolworthy at least.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 1, 2014)

How does anything you said make Kimi fast in any sense ? Kimi is slower then rusty Tsunade lol. He is most definitely not even close to Itachis speed.

Taijustu raping PTS Naruto hoards amounts to nothing because PTS Naruto clones are fodder. Tsunade could replicate that feat with her eyes closed in part 1.

Nearly being blitzed by base Lee( slower then usual) and being pressured by drunk lee again means little.

Pushing through hoards of PTS GAARAS sand also doesn't amount to much. I don't understand how being pressured by this worthless part 1 characters is impressive in any sense tbh.

Healthy Kimi is basically the lowest level of Kage possible.


----------



## Bloo (Apr 2, 2014)

saikyou said:


> I don't see how Itachi won't just blitz him and stick a kunai in his face before Kimi can react.


Honestly, this. Even if this doesn't happen, Kimimaro isn't landing a hit on Itachi.

Itachi's only chance of winning lies within the first minute of the encounter. If Itachi can blitz him and maybe find a weak spot in his defenses and attack that with a kunai (or behead Kimimaro if his bone plates don't protect him there), then he may be able to win. Otherwise I see this ending in a stalemate as Itachi is quick enough to not get hit.

And, fellow Itachi fans, saying a Katon is taking down someone with the endurance of Kimimaro when they've yet to do so to fodder is a terrible point.


----------



## Cord (Apr 2, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Again im not talking about gated Lee, and clones are useless against Kimi as was shown when fought off a multitude of Naruto clones with out being hit a single fucking tijme. That isn't a speed feat but reaction feat*s*.



The way Naruto utilized his bunshins when he fought Kimimaro was different with that of Itachi. The latter's more efficient because he doesn't rely on merely overwhelming his opponent with it - but to feint him just like what that particular jutsu is for. Review his previous usage of bunshins against Kakashi and Sasuke. He can even make unnoticeable hand-signs amidst a heated exchange - something that wasn't caught even with the Sharingan. Kimimaro doesn't have the perceptive ability to see through that. And for someone as stealthy as Itachi, this would even be more convenient considering that the battlefield is a forest.



> Even if Itachi is faster than Lee, its still means nothing. Go back and read the kimi fight, the entire fight. Kimi is a fucking beast.



He's much faster than Lee, with greater perceptive ability and more efficient move pool (bunshins + Kenjutsu) even without a great offensive power.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> How does anything you said make Kimi fast in any sense ? Kimi is slower then rusty Tsunade lol. He is most definitely not even close to Itachis speed.


He attacks fast and dodges quickly and efficiently and cohesively as he has shown.  You are just biased, how does Itachi put him down?



> Taijustu raping PTS Naruto hoards amounts to nothing because PTS Naruto clones are fodder. Tsunade could replicate that feat with her eyes closed in part 1.


Go out and fight 30 people at once and not get touched 1 fucking time...impossible. PTS Naruto was a force to be reckoned with as a genin...he had learned rasengan, spams Shadow Clones at an astounding rate, and is able to access part of Kurama's chakra. Tsunade would be overwhelmed and fucked if they decided to jump in the air as she  hit the ground.





> Nearly being blitzed by base Lee( slower then usual) and being pressured by drunk lee again means little.


Your first three words contradict each other. Drunk Lee is unpredictable. When Gai heard that Lee took Sake he was freaking out. and commented that "when he recovered and regained consciousness the restaurant was destroyed/wrecked". So does that mean that being pressured by  drunk Lee...Gai the Taijutsu master.


> Pushing through hoards of PTS GAARAS sand also doesn't amount to much. I don't understand how being pressured by this worthless part 1 characters is impressive in any sense tbh.


ITachi with Susanoo couldn't replicate those feats with a million years of training with the EMS. Worthless part 1 characters? PTS Naruto whoms feats I have done listed, fighting a drunken taijutsu master with ease and reacting to a gated technique with ease. And Gaara who mind you became the Kazekage not long after this and with the same skill set....worthless...yea fucking right keep up your delusions.





> Healthy Kimi is basically the lowest level of Kage possible.


Yet base Itachi is barely high jounin, and can't put kimi down.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 2, 2014)

Cordelia said:


> The way Naruto utilized his bunshins when he fought Kimimaro was different with that of Itachi. The latter's more efficient because he doesn't rely on merely overwhelming his opponent with it - but to feint him just like what that particular jutsu is for. Review his previous usage of bunshins against Kakashi and Sasuke. He can even make unnoticeable hand-signs amidst a heated exchange - something that wasn't caught even with the Sharingan. Kimimaro doesn't have the perceptive ability to see through that. And for someone as stealthy as Itachi, this would even be more convenient considering that the battlefield is a forest.


Kimi is very analytic and high observant of his surroundings. He was able to see through the lotus which Sasuke couldn't do with a 2tomoe Sharingan. Even if he does mis the bunshin....then what?  


> He's much faster than Lee, with greater perceptive ability and more efficient move pool (bunshins + Kenjutsu) even without a great offensive power.


Shunshin wise...yes. Foot speed and reactions I would give to Lee. Meaning that Lee is faster in CQC than Itachi is, but Shunshin wise over a distance Itachi may outpace him more times than not depending on terrain.


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## Veracity (Apr 2, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> He attacks fast and dodges quickly and efficiently and cohesively as he has shown.  You are just biased, how does Itachi put him down?
> 
> Go out and fight 30 people at once and not get touched 1 fucking time...impossible. PTS Naruto was a force to be reckoned with as a genin...he had learned rasengan, spams Shadow Clones at an astounding rate, and is able to access part of Kurama's chakra. Tsunade would be overwhelmed and fucked if they decided to jump in the air as she  hit the ground.Your first three words contradict each other. Drunk Lee is unpredictable. When Gai heard that Lee took Sake he was freaking out. and commented that "when he recovered and regained consciousness the restaurant was destroyed/wrecked". So does that mean that being pressured by  drunk Lee...Gai the Taijutsu master.
> ITachi with Susanoo couldn't replicate those feats with a million years of training with the EMS. Worthless part 1 characters? PTS Naruto whoms feats I have done listed, fighting a drunken taijutsu master with ease and reacting to a gated technique with ease. And Gaara who mind you became the Kazekage not long after this and with the same skill set....worthless...yea fucking right keep up your delusions.
> Yet base Itachi is barely high jounin, and can't put kimi down.



He attacks fast and dodged attacks against slow opponents. Even PTS Sasuke seemed to be swift compared To certain characters. But then compared to Shippudden characters he's ass. 

Why are you under the impression that I think Itachi wins? I NEVER EVER SAID HE WOULD WIN. Just that he won't be touched during the battle.

I couldn't do anything that freaking fictional characters can do in a manga. Pre Genin Naruto could probably do like 4 backflips in the air something I cannot do, but that itself is not impressive in the manga.

Tsunade would absolutely wreck those Naruto clones without effort. She has a perfect taijustu stat, is the physically strongest character in the manga, and is tiers faster then this Naruto. Lol that's a joke.

That battle was completely off panel and Gai was obviously caught off guard. It's also to note that part 1 Gai was pretty fucking weak compared to current Gai and was in base mode AND was caught off guard. That off paneled trash feat gets you no where.

You seriously think a Sussano user cannot push through PTS Gaara sand ? You serious ? 

Nobody in part one bar the Sannin, Hokage , and Akatsuki members were actually Kage level. Everyone else is below Kage level. That's basically fact at this point. Everything that PTS Characters do are not impressive lol. It's all Jounin shit.

I don't really care how strong you perceive base Itachi as. Facts are that he would run circles around Kimi casually. I'm not saying he wins, but Kimi will definitely be a punching bag for 90% of the battle.


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## Animal Realm (Apr 3, 2014)

Those who think Itachi wins, tell me this. What does Itachi have that can land a killshot on CS2 Kimi? He can pull out his own spine and regen instantly. Kunai? Katon? Pfft. Mangekyou is the only way that Itachi gains enough firepower to break through Kimi's immense defences. Without the MS, Itachi just can't get through those bones. 

I'm assuming Healthy Kimi, or at least one that won't drop dead -- just like I'm assuming Itachi's illness won't kill him either, merely weaken him. Otherwise we could say "Oh, Itachi in this fight is just about to keel over and die" or vice versa. So sick or healthy, I'm assuming neither of them will DIE from their illness, only be weakened.


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## Lurko (Apr 3, 2014)

Wow gay restrictions regardless I still see Itachi winning even if he has to paralyze Kimmi with a genjustu and then continue to put a kunai down his throat or spit out a giant katon right in his face.


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## Tarot (Apr 3, 2014)

Ah yes, I love these threads that totally gimp Itachi because you really see how far his fans will grasp at straws to say he wins.

I have yet to hear a single way Itachi breaks through Kimimaro's bone armor. C-rank Katons and kunai lolreally? 

Kimimaro could survive Gaara's sand attacks that could liquify people, rip out his own spine,  and kept fighting. Don't give me some weak appeal to power scaling since Kabuto(an elite jonin portrayed in same league as part 1 Kakashi) outright praised Kimimaro as invincible, and Jugo reverenced him.


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## Remsengan (Apr 3, 2014)

Even if Itachi is faster than base Kimimaro, he has nothing that's going to do considerable damage.  Even if Katon's have the output, Itachi can't use them because they're too slow.  Seal speed aside, you still have to inhale and blow out, and so far it seems like the flames never travel very quickly.  It always seems as though the opposition always has enough time to defend against even the stronger Katons.

Everything else is just a matter time until Kimimaro uses the Dance of Ferns, and Itachi can't defend or avoid such an attack.  He may dodge for a short time but since Kimi can just bone warp behind him at any time eventually Itachi will get hit.

*Kimi 8/10 very-high difficulty.*


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## Cord (Apr 3, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Kimi is very analytic and high observant of his surroundings. He was able to see through the lotus which Sasuke couldn't do with a 2tomoe Sharingan. Even if he does mis the bunshin....then what?



He was able to see through the lotus? When? Say that did happen, a measly showcase of that ability is not enough to justify him seeing through Itachi's advances that fooled even the Sharingan. If he keeps getting deceived, he can't possibly land a hit and take into account that Itachi's not only faster than him, but is able read his movements as well.

The best bet Kimimaro has here is outlasting Itachi.



> Shunshin wise...yes. Foot speed and reactions I would give to Lee. Meaning that Lee is faster in CQC than Itachi is, but Shunshin wise over a distance Itachi may outpace him more times than not depending on terrain.



. . . . A genin and post-hospitalized-still-recuperating-from-his-injuries-back-then-Rock Lee is faster than Itachi? Even without Shunshin being considered? I don't think so. 

Even if he was uninjured at that time, a genin couldn't have been faster than any version of Itachi. With or without shunshin. The statistics alone should debunk that claim. Feats? Well lol.


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 3, 2014)

To the ppl, comparing garra's sand to itachi katons, you have to realize it's two different type of attacks, garra's sand is ment  to suffocate and crush his opponents "bones", which is why kimi was able to tank it, his bones are extremely durable, how does durable "bones" translate to tanking fire


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## Remsengan (Apr 3, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> To the ppl, comparing garra's sand to itachi katons, you have to realize it's two different type of attacks, garra's sand is ment  to suffocate and crush his opponents "bones", which is why kimi was able to tank it, his bones are extremely durable, how does durable "bones" translate to tanking fire



By comparison, Garaa's sand has blocked many Katons, including Amaterasu.  Granted, Kimi will feel the heat but the impact should be negated and I don't think Itachi's normal Katons are hot enough to cook Kimi inside his exoskeleton.

But I don't think Itachi's normal Katons are even fast enough to catch him in the first place.


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## kingcools (Apr 3, 2014)

Death Arcana said:


> Ah yes, I love these threads that totally gimp Itachi because you really see how far his fans will grasp at straws to say he wins.
> 
> I have yet to hear a single way Itachi breaks through Kimimaro's bone armor. C-rank Katons and kunai lolreally?
> 
> Kimimaro could survive Gaara's sand attacks that could liquify people, rip out his own spine,  and kept fighting. Don't give me some weak appeal to power scaling since Kabuto(an elite jonin portrayed in same league as part 1 Kakashi) outright praised Kimimaro as invincible, and Jugo reverenced him.



kunai to the eyes and its over. Itachis abilities far exceed at best jounin level kimimaro.
itachi is way too fast for kimi.


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## Skywalker (Apr 3, 2014)

kingcools said:


> kunai to the eyes and its over


That's always been an awful argument, Itachi isn't hitting Kimi in the eyes, he's evasive as fuck.


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## Vice (Apr 3, 2014)

"Itachi wins because Itachi" has pretty much become a pretty standard response in the NBD.


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## Tom Servo (Apr 3, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Kimi takes this easily.
> 
> He can sprout bones from all over his body, *kept up with drunk Lee and has good reactions.*
> 
> ...



Is Pre-TS Drunk Lee>>>>Itachi in speed or something?


----------



## Ghost (Apr 3, 2014)

Skywalker said:


> That's always been an awful argument, Itachi isn't hitting Kimi in the eyes, he's evasive as fuck.



Are you saying Kimimaro is faster than/fast as the Raikage? Sasuke who has slower reaction/reflexes than Itachi was tracking V1 4th who is leagues above Kimimaro if you haven't noticed.

Kimimaro is hopelessly outclassed in every aspect except for raw CQC skill and durability.


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## Rocky (Apr 3, 2014)

^ and Stamina & DC. Itachi's only advantages are speed (albeit pretty substantially) and intelligence.


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## Reznor (Apr 3, 2014)

Durability is pretty clearly Kimimaro.

But everything else? Well, Speed is obviously Itachi's. Higher databook, higher tier and the sharigan on top of all that.

Strength is a hard call. No crazy strength feats from Kimimaro, and Itachi strangely has a 4 in DB. Off course, bone weapons might make a difference.

But Itachi also has Katons and Suitons.

If Itachi can steal a bone weapon, it's game over for Kimimaro. If that that doesn't work a hard victory for Itachi.


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2014)

Reznor said:


> Durability is pretty clearly Kimimaro.
> 
> But everything else? Well, Speed is obviously Itachi's. Higher databook, higher tier and the sharigan on top of all that.
> 
> ...



Itach does not have a 4 in str


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## Reznor (Apr 3, 2014)

Oh, I misread. 3.5.

I take DB lightly anyway. I won't have expected more than 3 from him.


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2014)

Reznor said:


> Oh, I misread. 3.5.
> 
> I take DB lightly anyway. I won't have expected more than 3 from him.



It's supposedly typical of a any Jonin to be able to kick someone through concrete walls, so I think 3.5 makes perfect sense. Whether DB accounts for illness or not is another story though.


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## Reznor (Apr 3, 2014)

I look at DB stats as being a very base figure. 
So, I see it as a gauge before sharigan/CS/SM and all that jazz, but also before more basic stuff too.

I would expect a jounin with 3 speed to outperform a genin with 3 speed due to some intangibles like reaction time, anticipation and shunshin proficiency.

Not sure how that applies here, but that's my general DB view


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## Thunder (Apr 3, 2014)

Reznor said:


> Durability is pretty clearly Kimimaro.
> 
> But everything else? Well, Speed is obviously Itachi's. Higher databook, higher tier and the sharigan on top of all that.
> 
> Strength is a hard call. No crazy strength feats from Kimimaro, and Itachi strangely has a 4 in DB. Off course, bone weapons might make a difference.



Some of the databook scores for strength in particular don't make any sense to me. I mean, we have guys like Chūnin Exams Sasuke knocking out giant bears (I believe he had a 2 or 3 at that point). And Itachi has a 3.5.

Dat Indra power.


----------



## Rocky (Apr 3, 2014)

All Ninja are superhuman to an extent. Having something like a 2 or 3 would be superhuman still, at least enough to knock out a bear.


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2014)

Reznor said:


> I look at DB stats as being a very base figure.
> So, I see it as a gauge before sharigan/CS/SM and all that jazz, but also before more basic stuff too.
> 
> I would expect a jounin with 3 speed to outperform a genin with 3 speed due to some intangibles like reaction time, anticipation and shunshin proficiency.
> ...


From what I can tell the DB Stats are to be used two ways: 

Tell readers general levels characters are at in certain attributes; speed, nin, str, tai, etc...
Give the readers a holistic sense of a characters rough total ability or "level" [before any add-ons, CS/Sennin-Modo/etc...], through stat totals. 

I don't think DB-Stats give use precise specifics, but nothing in the manga does. Kishi always plays around with a characters abilities a bit, in terms of how he depicts their individual categories speed, strength, stamina; & how he depicts their overall total ability or "level".

One thing I will mention though is Sharingan is included in DB-Stats, because DBIII makes a note that Sasuke's stats will rise now that he has Mangekyo-Sharingan.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 3, 2014)

Cordelia said:


> He was able to see through the lotus? When? Say that did happen, a measly showcase of that ability is not enough to justify him seeing through Itachi's advances that fooled even the Sharingan. If he keeps getting deceived, he can't possibly land a hit and take into account that Itachi's not only faster than him, but is able read his movements as well.
> 
> The best bet Kimimaro has here is outlasting Itachi.
> 
> ...


Lee only lost edge and power behind his kicks. As garage noted.                   I'm typing on an iPad so it's going to be hard to write so bare with me.   He blocked the initial lotus. Lee noted his kg was unpredictable and the Komi said that he is unpredictable and that is what is needed to beat sharing an. Itching can attempt to read his movements but won't be able to. Lee is a taijutsu master with extreme cqc skills if he can't even partially injured and .....DRUNK couldn't evade and hit him efficiently I highly donut itachi will be able to compete  with him.  Kiwis taijutsu is refined and masterful. Kabuto thought he was outright invincible


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## Thunder (Apr 3, 2014)

Rocky said:


> All Ninja are superhuman to an extent. Having something like a 2 or 3 would be superhuman still, at least enough to knock out a bear.



Indeed, but the animals are far from normal as well. Did you see the size of that bear?

There would be no need for chakra-enhanced strength if you're able to accomplish such a feat with a mere 2. It simply doesn't add up. The way I see it, we're looking at databook scores the wrong way, or they aren't as important as we think.

There's too many inconsistencies, but I wouldn't fault anyone for using them to supplement their arguments. Problems arise when people try and use these stats _alone_ to determine a victor.


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Indeed, but the animals are far from normal as well. Did you see the size of that bear?


The problem is Thunder, your looking too deeply into it. It's not like Kishi was calculating the strength a bear would actually have at that size, and than factoring how strong someone would need to be to KO that bear with a kick. Kishi was instead thinking regular-bear is utter fodder even to genin, so i'll make the bear large, so this scene looks cooler. Yet was still probably considering the bear much weaker than any ninja in his mind, again without bothering to think about how stronger the bear really was.



> There would be no need for chakra-enhanced strength if you're able to accomplish such a feat with a mere 2. It simply doesn't add up. The way I see it, we're looking at databook scores the wrong way, or they aren't as important as we think.
> 
> There's too many inconsistencies, but I wouldn't fault anyone for using them to supplement their arguments. Problems arise when people try and use these stats alone to determine a victor.


Actually your making the case for why the DB-ststs are more important than "Feats". Because if we look at the bear KOing feat objectively it means Genin-Sasuke was insanely strong to the point that he should be overpowering most people in the manga. However the author clearly doesn't want Genin Sasuke to be seen that way given his other fights. In this instance we can see the misleading nature of "feats", while on the other hand Sasuke DB-score of 2, is a more rational estimate of how the author wants us to view his strength and more accurately reflects the average at which Sasuke's strength output remains.


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## Thunder (Apr 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The problem is Thunder, your looking too deeply into it. It's not like Kishi was calculating the strength a bear would actually have at that size, and than factoring how strong someone would need to be to KO that bear with a kick. Kishi was instead thinking regular-bear is utter fodder even to genin, so i'll make the bear large, so this scene looks cooler. Yet was still probably considering the bear much weaker than any ninja in his mind, again without bothering to think about how stronger the bear really was.



Yeah, probably Turrin. I think most of us fall into that trap. This is why sometimes I think casual readers understand Kishimoto's message better than people like us who love to dissect everything. 



> Actually your making the case for why the DB-ststs are more important than "Feats". Because if we look at the bear KOing feat objectively it means Genin-Sasuke was insanely strong to the point that he should be overpowering most people in the manga. However the author clearly doesn't want Genin Sasuke to be seen that way given his other fights. In this instance we can see the misleading nature of "feats", while on the other hand Sasuke DB-score of 2, is a more rational estimate of how the author wants us to view his strength and more accurately reflects the average at which Sasuke's strength output remains.



Well, I wouldn't say stats are individually more important than feats, hype, portrayal or whatever. I find that arguments have more weight (at least to me) when you try and incorporate all of these together, or at least as many as possible.  

I do see your overall point however, and it makes sense to me.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 3, 2014)

Itachi taijutsu blitzes.


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## Vice (Apr 3, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi taijutsu blitzes.



It'll be like someone throwing a rock at steel.

And lol at the blitzing argument when Kimi is better in taijutsu and a 4.5 in speed.


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## Reznor (Apr 3, 2014)

Any evidence that Katons are ineffective against Kimimaro?


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## Vice (Apr 3, 2014)

Any evidence that Itachi can survive Sawarabi no Mai without Susanoo?


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Well, I wouldn't say stats are individually more important than feats, hype, portrayal or whatever. I find that arguments have more weight (at least to me) when you try and incorporate all of these together, or at least as many as possible.
> 
> I do see your overall point however, and it makes sense to me.


Like I said to renzor there are a time and place to use feats, but they shouldn't decide who would win a match or who is the strongest shinobi, because we haven't seen half of what Shinobi can do; that's the limitations of how Kishi wrote the manga where many Shinobi have dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of abilities. 

I think DB-Stats & Portrayal is what should be evaluate in context. Feats can some time be used to evaluate how two specific Jutsu or abilities would interact, but even than we need to be very careful


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## Weapon (Apr 3, 2014)

Can we switch the stipulations to Healthy Kimmimaro vs Healthy Itachi w/o Restrictions? I think this would be more interesting and I have a good argument for the one I think would win this.

Unless people have already swayed away from OP and are talking about specific things now regarding this match-up.


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## Thunder (Apr 3, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Like I said to renzor there are a time and place to use feats, but they shouldn't decide who would win a match or who is the strongest shinobi, because *we haven't seen half of what Shinobi can do*; that's the limitations of how Kishi wrote the manga where many Shinobi have dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of abilities.
> 
> I think DB-Stats & Portrayal is what should be evaluate in context. Feats can some time be used to evaluate how two specific Jutsu or abilities would interact, but even than we need to be very careful



Exactly. Half the time a "new" jutsu is revealed it's something the character already possessed, but just didn't use as the situation didn't call for it. From an author's perspective it does make sense to hold certain characters back until that level of power is needed later in the story. Gai is a prime example; I'm pretty sure he knew how to open all of the gates since his fight with Shōten Kisame. Maybe even as far back as Part I.

It's interesting to imagine what other kinds of jutsu guys like Sannin have got. And of course, there's Hiruzen and Kakashi. That's why I try to give them (and others) some leeway in these match-ups. It's silly to think that Orochimaru doesn't have some decent genjutsu or elemental techniques, for example.


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## StickaStick (Apr 3, 2014)

Itachi is paper here and Kimimaro is a shredder. That simple.


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## Cord (Apr 3, 2014)

Vice said:


> Any evidence that Itachi can survive Sawarabi no Mai without Susanoo?



The manner in which Sasori's _Satetsu Kaihou_ is executed, is akin to Kimimaro's _Sawarbi No Mai_. Both of which would sprout from almost nowhere and cover a large scale - very difficult to evade. The former is even harder to elude given that the stakes are thinner and more compacted. Yet, Sakura was still able to prevent herself (with Chiyo's help) from getting impaled and came out with just a mere scratch. Someone who's more perceptive, reflexive and faster than her, should do better.

Also, Itachi was able to evade it for a while as per canon, so he should be able to survive an inferior version of that jutsu. That said, battling Kimimaro while having those stakes in the battleground without anything (besides Katon) to combat them both, would be very difficult. If Katons are ineffective, then *Itachi should lose*. Not that he won't be able to survive _Sawarabi no Mai_, but because it will impede his movements and allow Kimimaro to take advantage of that.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 4, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Some of the databook scores for strength in particular don't make any sense to me. I mean, we have guys like Chūnin Exams Sasuke knocking out giant bears (I believe he had a 2 or 3 at that point). And Itachi has a 3.5.
> 
> Dat Indra power.




Temari
Strength: 3.5

Ino
Strength: 2.5

Shikamaru
Strength: 2
Stamina: 3

Tenten
Strength: 1.5
Stamina: 2


Databook strength is silly.  From a character perspective, there is no way that Shikamaru, the laziest ninja in Konoha, has more strength and stamina than a member of Team Fitlife.  You could say it's just because Tenten is a woman, and Kishi gives them lower stamina and strength, but Ino is stronger than Shikamaru, and Temari can do push ups with all three of them on her back.  She can apparently kick craters into walls, and one punch a mega bear too.  

That just doesn't make sense from a character, narrative, portrayal, or casual, or common sense reading of the manga.


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## Rocky (Apr 4, 2014)

Yeah Kishi probably doesn't care much for strength in the Databook until you get to tier 5.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 4, 2014)

He probably doesn't care about most stats until you get 5.  Those he probably puts some thought into, because he doesn't pass them out frequently.  Even to characters he inflates and wants to be awesome at everything, like Jiraiya, gets a load of 4.5's in stats like speed and taijutsu, even though he's never displayed or been noted for any speed or taijutsu, and a pretty good stat in genjutsu even though it's his weakness.  But he gets 5's in ninjutsu and stamina, and so every time we see him fight, he's used heavy ninjutsu and been noted for having exceptional stamina.

Jiraiya

Databook Statistics (Out of 5):
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 4.5
Genjutsu: 3
Intelligence: 4.5
Strength: 4.5
Speed: 4.5
Stamina: 5
Seals: 4.5


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## Thunder (Apr 4, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Temari
> Strength: 3.5
> 
> Ino
> ...



Nothing makes sense anymore. 

Kishimoto: Fuck. I can't use Hashirama's cells to explain everything away.
Editors: So? Introduce space aliens. That always works.
Kishimoto: K.


*On topic:* Temari does carry that giant metal fan around. Maybe we've been underestimating her. Temari > giant bears, confirmed.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 4, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Nothing makes sense anymore.
> 
> Kishimoto: Fuck. I can't use Hashirama's cells to explain everything away.
> Editors: So? Introduce space aliens. That always works.
> ...



I'm speaking from the mindset of 2012, or even '10 when I say that.  The manga hasn't been passably reasonable since then, and we're lucky to get workable consistency within the same chapter, let alone two consecutive chapters.

But the giant metal fan is a good thought.  Temari probably lifts in Suna's kage tower, like Raikage does in his.


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## Vice (Apr 4, 2014)

Cordelia said:


> -snip-





There's nothing inferior about this version with stalks as tall as trees and covering a distance as far as the eye can see. Itachi may be able to jump up to avoid them initially but then where is he going to go? He can't float like Gaara.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 4, 2014)

Vice said:


> It'll be like someone throwing a rock at steel.
> 
> And lol at the blitzing argument when Kimi is better in taijutsu and a 4.5 in speed.


Yeah well he wouldn't blitz him. I was exaggerating.

But Itachi is faster and has sharingan precog and has shown alot better agility. Itachi can keep Kimi @ bay without spending too much energy, but Kimimaro needs to go CS2 and use his big moves to become a threat. He eventually kills himself of exertion or gives an opening and Itachi fucks him in the ass.


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## Turrin (Apr 4, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Exactly. Half the time a "new" jutsu is revealed it's something the character already possessed, but just didn't use as the situation didn't call for it. From an author's perspective it does make sense to hold certain characters back until that level of power is needed later in the story. Gai is a prime example; I'm pretty sure he knew how to open all of the gates since his fight with Shōten Kisame. Maybe even as far back as Part I.


Since Might Dia could open all 8-Gates I think Gai could probably have opened them all even sooner than Part I. The difference between Part II Gai & Part I Gai, Pre-Manga Gai, Dai, etc... is probably that Part II Gai's body can endure Gates longer. So Dai might be able to open 8th-Gate, but only can endure it long enough to release a few attacks, which is how at least some of the 7Mist-Swordsmen survived. 

For example if Gai used 8th-Gate and did 1 or 2 attacks on Madara, we'd be like shit that's impressive, but not nearly as impressive as Gai being able to fight in 8th-Gate for this long of a time.



> It's interesting to imagine what other kinds of jutsu guys like Sannin have got. And of course, there's Hiruzen and Kakashi. That's why I try to give them (and others) some leeway in these match-ups. It's silly to think that Orochimaru doesn't have some decent genjutsu or elemental techniques, for example.


I honestly the fact that Kishi felt the need to have Kakashi master 1,000 techniques to justify his title of copy ninja, tells me that Kishi probably thinks numbers like 20 ~ 50 techniques is normative. We haven't seen a fraction of that from anyone. Than like you said there are Shinobi like the Sannin, who probably has mastered hundreds of techniques if not in the case of Orochimaru - thousands. Given the scant amount of techniques we've seen I don't see how we can judge by feats.

By feats Killer B would have lost to any Edo, than he pull rando Fuuinjutsu out of no where. Stuff like that make a comparison on feats meaningless, in the sense of X-Character has Y-Jutsu, Z-Character hasn't shown a counter, so X-Character beats Z-Character.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Temari
> Strength: 3.5
> 
> Ino
> ...


Tenten uses thrown weapons and prides herself on accuracy with them. It makes perfect sense that her strength wouldn't be any area she's concerned with. 



> He probably doesn't care about most stats until you get 5. Those he probably puts some thought into, because he doesn't pass them out frequently. Even to characters he inflates and wants to be awesome at everything, like Jiraiya, gets a load of 4.5's in stats like speed and taijutsu, even though he's never displayed or been noted for any speed or taijutsu, and a pretty good stat in genjutsu even though it's his weakness. But he gets 5's in ninjutsu and stamina, and so every time we see him fight, he's used heavy ninjutsu and been noted for having exceptional stamina.


He's a sannin, whose been at this for 50 some years, his speed/taijtusu being high makes perfect sense. 

Again the author is not going to be able to show everything, especially with a Ninja like Jiriaya who probably has hundreds if not a thousand different skills/abilities. Jiriaya had 1 major fight, that's it.


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## Ghost (Apr 4, 2014)

Vice said:


> Any evidence that Itachi can survive Sawarabi no Mai without Susanoo?



Idk man... Its almost like shinobi can use chakra on their feet and hands to cling onto things. But that couldn't be it.


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## Vice (Apr 4, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Idk man... Its almost like shinobi can use chakra on their feet and hands to cling onto things. But that couldn't be it.



No, that's not it and it's laughable that you'd say shit like this.


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## Bonly (Apr 4, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Idk man... Its almost like shinobi can use chakra on their feet and hands to cling onto things. But that couldn't be it.



Oh no of course not. It's like thinking Itachi could climb up the huge ass tree which go higher then Kimi's bone go and thinking Itachi could use that to survive Sawarabi no Mai without Susanoo . Come on now get that crazy out of the box thinking out of here, you know Itachi gets raped by Sawarabi no Mai without Susanoo


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## SSMG (Apr 4, 2014)

Couldnt itachi just like dodge it? he did react to lighnting amd all.


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## Turrin (Apr 4, 2014)

I'm sorry, but if Kishi was going to allow Itachi to simply chakra walk to escape the bones, he wouldn't have had Itachi pull out Susano'o to defend himself against Swarabi no Mai, in he Kabuto fight.


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## Bonly (Apr 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I'm sorry, but if Kishi was going to allow Itachi to simply chakra walk to escape the bones, he wouldn't have had Itachi pull out Susano'o to defend himself against Swarabi no Mai, in he Kabuto fight.



He didn't pull out Susanoo to defend himself though. He did however use it to cut all of the bones in half


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I'm sorry, but if Kishi was going to allow Itachi to simply chakra walk to escape the bones, he wouldn't have had Itachi pull out Susano'o to defend himself against Swarabi no Mai, in he Kabuto fight.



I thought he pulled Susano'o out to open a way through so they could escape. Because they were in a confined space. They didn't have much room to move around. 
This scenario says they are in a forest, so I bet he can find a tree to climb on to or just move out of the vicinity.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 4, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I thought he pulled Susano'o out to open a way through so they could escape. Because they were in a confined space. They didn't have much room to move around.
> This scenario says they are in a forest, so I bet he can find a tree to climb on to or just move out of the vicinity.



Itachi the great and powerful with an absolute defense couldn't just sit in a corner throwing around Totsuka.......bullshit and you know it.

Im not saying that its bullshit, just that you not believing that is bullshit.


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## Cord (Apr 4, 2014)

Vice said:


> There's nothing inferior about this version with stalks as tall as trees and covering a distance as far as the eye can see. Itachi may be able to jump up to avoid them initially but then where is he going to go? He can't float like Gaara.



Yeah, which is why I said Itachi would lose because that'll impede his movements, allowing Kimimaro to create an opening and attack. I just disagreed with you on how he won't be able to survive those initially.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 4, 2014)

I'd probably go with Kimimaro.

Without the Mangekyō Sharingan, Itachi lacks the proper offensive tools to effectively deal with Kimimaro's defenses; nothing in his base arsenal would do feasible damage and gōkakyū is unlikely to do anything more than pose a minor inconvenience, when you consider how much crushing damage Kimimaro took against Gaara. Genjutsu was the one saving grace a 'real' base Itachi might have had; his opponent has shown little to no genjutsu defenses, and Itachi's application of illusory techniques are some of the best in the manga. They're not necessarily the strongest, but they're incredible subtle so that discerning them from reality is incredibly difficult, and he's also fast enough to capitalise on the opening immediately. Unfortunately, here he doesn't even have that grace.

Under most circumstances, an ill Kimimaro might still lose to an opponent who doesn't have the physical capacity to put him down. His showing was great, but he has a very limited amount of battle time available. As long as the opponent can outlast him or keep away from close quarters with him, they should be able to win, in theory. Itachi is one of the few characters who doesn't have that benefit, though; his stamina is debatably worse than Kimimaro's, and while he has the speed and skill to evade him, he doesn't have the ability to keep a good distance away from him—especially considering the fact that the location is in a clearing. There's little room for maneuver, here.

Mind, I don't think Itachi would go down immediately. He's not as skilled as Kimimaro, nor as physically adept, but he's faster and has the Sharingan. A close quarter exchange would inevitably play into Kimimaro's hands, but Itachi has many tricks even without genjutsu at his disposal. He's shown the ability to quickly create karasu bunshin in the middle of heated combat at a speed where even a Sharingan couldn't track it, and can use that to either create an opening for himself to escape, or get in the middle and explode. That's unlikely to do much, though.

There are several ways Kimimaro could win here. One is that he just relentlessly chases Itachi down and engage him in taijutsu until he kills him; one hit should be enough, given the density and sharpness of his weapons, and I'd be apprehensive to believe Itachi could parry his steel-sharp bone swords with a kunai for any longer than a few minutes. The other way is through his flashier techniques, such as sawarabi no mai. Itachi might be able to dodge the initial burst by taking to the trees (and that's a big maybe; the bones produced by the attack are probably just as tall as the trees), but Kimimaro has shown the ability to freely move through them. Itachi might be fast and have good reaction skills, but he'd be at too big of a disadvantage to be able to survive when he's essentially fighting within an environment his opponent can freely manipulate.


----------



## Thunder (Apr 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Since Might Dia could open all 8-Gates I think Gai could probably have opened them all even sooner than Part I. The difference between Part II Gai & Part I Gai, Pre-Manga Gai, Dai, etc... is probably that Part II Gai's body can endure Gates longer. So Dai might be able to open 8th-Gate, but only can endure it long enough to release a few attacks, which is how at least some of the 7Mist-Swordsmen survived.
> 
> For example if Gai used 8th-Gate and did 1 or 2 attacks on Madara, we'd be like shit that's impressive, but not nearly as impressive as Gai being able to fight in 8th-Gate for this long of a time.



I'm not sure if Gai could open all of them before Part I seeing how Minato was surprised when Gai activated them. The Hokage of all people should be aware of this stuff. Yamato talked about Hirudora as if he's seen it in action a few times, though, so you may be right. We don't have enough information to say either way, but it's fun to speculate about. 



> I honestly the fact that Kishi felt the need to have Kakashi master 1,000 techniques to justify his title of copy ninja, tells me that Kishi probably thinks numbers like 20 ~ 50 techniques is normative. We haven't seen a fraction of that from anyone. Than like you said there are Shinobi like the Sannin, who probably has mastered hundreds of techniques if not in the case of Orochimaru - thousands. Given the scant amount of techniques we've seen I don't see how we can judge by feats.


Well, feats are just the middle ground most users here agree to meet at because they are often the easiest to discern, especially for newer members. Keep in mind that the Naruto sections probably cater to the youngest group of posters on the forums. Tsunade punching a wall and shattering it is just that. There's no room for interpretation. However, a statement such as "Tsunade is physically strong!" doesn't tell us much. How do we quantify that without seeing her _in_ _action_ (i.e. feats)?

I don't think the answer is to put portrayal and hype on a pedestal above all other data. It's just knowing when to use what. For example, if one character admits inferiority to another, feats are probably not needed. But even then we still need to examine the character's mind-set when that statement was made. Were they lying? 

Basically, there's no easy way to go about deciding match-ups here that will satisfy everyone. So rather than telling users to use this or that, do what you want and leave everyone to their own devices. Unless the Battledome rules change (I don't want that to happen) this is what we're stuck with. So just have fun. 



> By feats Killer B would have lost to any Edo, than he pull rando Fuuinjutsu out of no where. Stuff like that make a comparison on feats meaningless, in the sense of X-Character has Y-Jutsu, Z-Character hasn't shown a counter, so X-Character beats Z-Character.


As you know Edo Tensei is a forbidden jutsu developed by Tobirama, one of the strongest shinobi Konoha ever produced. Essentially it's an extension of his mind and talents; that's what any jutsu is. It was never suppose to be defeated easily, otherwise, who would care about it? Also, it's not as if anyone who knows Fūin > Edo Tensei. You still have to get the Edo in a position where it's possible to seal them (i.e. outmaneuver them or "defeat" them outright). Madara is an extreme example. The Gokage attempted to seal him yet failed because he was too strong.

So, while I agree that it would be dumb to see Kirābī lose to Edo fodder, you also must take the _hype_ of Edo Tensei itself into account. There's a reason why only three characters have mastered it in the series. An entire _war _was possible because of it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 4, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Itachi the great and powerful with an absolute defense couldn't just sit in a corner throwing around Totsuka.......bullshit and you know it.
> 
> Im not saying that its bullshit, just that you not believing that is bullshit.



I don't know what the fuck you'r talking about broski.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 4, 2014)

If someone spends all day, every day, running laps, training taijutsu, and throwing metal objects, they're going to develop power.  Look at the arms of javelin throwers, and discus throwers.  They get strong.  She should also have better stamina for someone who can throw 10,000 things, vs a guy who sleeps all day and eats potato chips with his bestie.  But somehow she's less fit and physically weaker than Shikamaru, and Ino, despite having a higher taijutsu and speed stat.  Now Ino has improved a lot, but her weight between databooks didn't change at all, probably because of dieting.  There's no way she gained no mass and got stronger than the relatively healthy by Kishi's anorexic standards Tenten.


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## Turrin (Apr 4, 2014)

Thunder said:


> I'm not sure if Gai could open all of them before Part I seeing how Minato was surprised when Gai activated them. The Hokage of all people should be aware of this stuff. Yamato talked about Hirudora as if he's seen it in action a few times, though, so you may be right. We don't have enough information to say either way, but it's fun to speculate about.


Dai was a genin though; Gai was a Jonin long before then. One would expect if Dai could do it Gai could.



> Well, feats are just the middle ground most users here agree to meet at because they are often the easiest to discern, especially for newer members. Keep in mind that the Naruto sections probably cater to the youngest group of posters on the forums. Tsunade punching a wall and shattering it is just that. There's no room for interpretation. However, a statement such as "Tsunade is physically strong!" doesn't tell us much. How do we quantify that without seeing her in action (i.e. feats)?


Ultimately depends for what purpose your evaluating Tsunade's strength. If you comparing how Tsunade's strength would perform against a specific well defined Jutsu than I see nothing wrong with using feats. However if you want to compare Tsunade's strength holistically to how a character would respond to it, than you start running into issues; as we are unaware of most of the character's full arsenals. An example; Hidan hasn't shown anything that can block Tsunade's strikes so he gets his head blown off by her punches; Hidan may very well have something that can block or avoid her strikes he hasn't shown. Additionally if something is not well defined. To give an example the upper limit of Ksunagi-Sword's durability is not defined, so bring up feats like lolz Tsunade punches through that things since she bunched through Susano'o is extremely flawed, as we don't know whether Susano'o is considered more durable than Ksuangi [of course talking the rib cage variant].

Again in both cases the feats based assertion may indeed be true, but it might also be false; so it's a non starter, but people often uses such arguments as proof of one characters superiority.



> don't think the answer is to put portrayal and hype on a pedestal above all other data. It's just knowing when to use what. For example, if one character admits inferiority to another, feats are probably not needed. But even then we still need to examine the character's mind-set when that statement was made. Were they lying?
> 
> Basically, there's no easy way to go about deciding match-ups here that will satisfy everyone. So rather than telling users to use this or that, do what you want and leave everyone to their own devices. Unless the Battledome rules change (I don't want that to happen) this is what we're stuck with. So just have fun.


Personally I think putting portrayal above feats is the answer, because feats-centrict discussion makes no sense to me anymore. However I don't force anyone to do anything, it's usually people bitching at me, that BD is only about feats.



> As you know Edo Tensei is a forbidden jutsu developed by Tobirama, one of the strongest shinobi Konoha ever produced. Essentially it's an extension of his mind and talents; that's what any jutsu is. It was never suppose to be defeated easily, otherwise, who would care about it? Also, it's not as if anyone who knows Fūin > Edo Tensei. You still have to get the Edo in a position where it's possible to seal them (i.e. outmaneuver them or "defeat" them outright). Madara is an extreme example. The Gokage attempted to seal him yet failed because he was too strong.
> 
> So, while I agree that it would be dumb to see Kirābī lose to Edo fodder, you also must take the hype of Edo Tensei itself into account. There's a reason why only three characters have mastered it in the series. An entire war was possible because of it.


Edo Tensei's major hype is based around the ability to bring back deceased Shinobi to fight for you and the Edo-perks; in Tobirama's case his specific strategies he uses with the Edos like Gojo explosive tags. Not just a single one of these things. Edo-perks alone we've seen fodder cloth sealers deal with. 

Let's take Hiruzen for example. He used a Fuuinjutsu that cost his life to defeat the Edos and attempt to defeat Orochimaru. This makes sense since he was up against powerful Edo's and a legendary sannin at the same time; he needs that level of Fuuinjtusu to deal with his enemies in that scenario. However what would not make sense is Hiruzen vs Edo-Shin; Hiruzen still needs to use Shiki Fuujin just to force a draw, yet that is what feats indicate. This is the silliness of feats. And believe me this is just one example.


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## Turrin (Apr 4, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If someone spends all day, every day, running laps, training taijutsu, and throwing metal objects, they're going to develop power. Look at the arms of javelin throwers, and discus throwers.  They get strong.  She should also have better stamina for someone who can throw 10,000 things, vs a guy who sleeps all day and eats potato chips with his bestie.  B.


Couple issues here:

1) Where was it indicated that Tenten trains her ass of every day? 
2) When has tenten been shown throwing Javalin sized objects, heck most of the time it seems like she uses Kuchiyose Scrolls, so she's just throwing around paper; largest object we've seen her throw by hand is basic Shuriken.
3) 1.5 in Str may be bellow average for Ninja, but it's probably still well above the average human, so that alone covers what your talking about, even if Tenten is doing throwing training every-day working her arms and throwing large objects



> ut somehow she's less fit and physically weaker than Shikamaru, and Ino, despite having a higher taijutsu and speed stat. n


We don't know how each rookie has been training or what type of fights they've encountered on their missions. Kishi can only show us so much. 



> Now Ino has improved a lot, but her weight between databooks didn't change at all, probably because of dieting.  There's no way she gained no mass and got stronger than the relatively healthy by Kishi's anorexic standards Tente


I'm sorry, but there is no way in hell Kishi is thinking about BMI, Technical Strength Training, etc... at any point in the manga. Your expecting way too much, from Kishi here and reading way too deeply.


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## Thunder (Apr 4, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Dai was a genin though; Gai was a Jonin long before then. One would expect if Dai could do it Gai could.



Good point.



> Ultimately depends for what purpose your evaluating Tsunade's strength. If you comparing how Tsunade's strength would perform against a specific well defined Jutsu than I see nothing wrong with using feats. However if you want to compare Tsunade's strength holistically to how a character would respond to it, than you start running into issues; as we are unaware of most of the character's full arsenals. An example; Hidan hasn't shown anything that can block Tsunade's strikes so he gets his head blown off by her punches; Hidan may very well have something that can block or avoid her strikes he hasn't shown. Additionally if something is not well defined. To give an example the upper limit of Ksunagi-Sword's durability is not defined, so bring up feats like lolz Tsunade punches through that things since she bunched through Susano'o is extremely flawed, as we don't know whether Susano'o is considered more durable than Ksuangi [of course talking the rib cage variant].Again in both cases the feats based assertion may indeed be true, but it  might also be false; so it's a non starter, but people often uses such  arguments as proof of one characters superiority.


We're unaware of character's whole arsenals for a reason, though. Viewing this from an author's perspective there isn't enough time to write everything in. Kishi only tells us what we need to know (i.e. what drives the story forward). I think one of the main problem people have with portrayal only arguments is this: they aren't always specific enough. Sure, portrayal alone tells us J-man > most shinobi. What it doesn't tell us, however, is _how_ he would defeat these characters. If you think he wins that's fine, but you can't just assume he's got some super secret space-time jutsu, or something. Because you and I aren't Kishi. We could very well be wrong with our assumptions. A line needs to be drawn somewhere and feats (as well as other data) help us do that.

If we're going to delve into the realm of speculation we've got to stay reasonable. To me, reasonable is allowing Tsunade the usage of Kage Bunshin. Both of her old teammates and sensei know it. She's possesses fine chakra control and plenty of chakra. She has access to the same Hokage scroll Naruto stole in Part I. There ya go. That's a lot easier to sell around here than, say, giving her Raiton on the level of Chidori.

Hidan is an extreme example because we both know Kishi was suppose to give him more jutsu, but the editors rushed him. He may have some way to guard against Tsunade's strikes . . . but what is it? If you can't tell me there's no point in bringing it up in a vs. match, because how is your opposition suppose to counter your argument? 

The point of the these threads is to garner debate. If we just go into every topic and say, "X-character wins by default due to this statement or these databook stats" there's nothing to discuss. The section as we know it will die, Turrin.



> Again in both cases the feats based assertion may indeed be true, but it might also be false; so it's a non starter, but people often uses such arguments as proof of one characters superiority.


It's flawed, but that's not completely our fault. We've got to work with what the author feeds us and that information isn't always crystal clear.



> Personally I think putting portrayal above feats is the answer, because feats-centrict discussion makes no sense to me anymore. However I don't force anyone to do anything, it's usually people bitching at me, that BD is only about feats.


If that works for you I don't see the problem. Those who say the Battledome is only about feats are misinformed. True, portrayal arguments are usually looked down upon here, but no one is stopping you from using them if you desire. Users can create and set the parameters of just about any match-up you can think of, provided there's enough information to go on. It's up to the individual debaters to decide how they want to debate. If you're unable to convince people with your current arguments, change them.

Personally, I think you bring an interesting perspective to many of these topics. That's my point: the Battledome should be a place of diverse opinions. I wouldn't want feats to banned here and I wouldn't want hype to be completely banned here, either.



> Edo Tensei's major hype is based around the ability to bring back deceased Shinobi to fight for you and the Edo-perks; in Tobirama's case his specific strategies he uses with the Edos like Gojo explosive tags. Not just a single one of these things. Edo-perks alone we've seen fodder cloth sealers deal with.


You assume they're fodder because they lack feats outside of their sealing abilities, which is what their hype is based around. 



> Let's take Hiruzen for example. He used a Fuuinjutsu that cost his life to defeat the Edos and attempt to defeat Orochimaru. This makes sense since he was up against powerful Edo's and a legendary sannin at the same time; he needs that level of Fuuinjtusu to deal with his enemies in that scenario. However what would not make sense is Hiruzen vs Edo-Shin; Hiruzen still needs to use Shiki Fuujin just to force a draw, yet that is what feats indicate. This is the silliness of feats. And believe me this is just one example.


In that particular scenario, yes, it's silly to say Hiruzen is unable to do anything. That doesn't prove a feat-centric argument is _always_ silly, though. It depends entirely on the situation. There's nothing wrong with giving Hiruzen some leeway there considering he was one of the strongest Hokage in history and is very knowledgeable to boot.

Without going into too much speculation: Hiruzen would just search out the caster with his crystal ball thingy, beat on them with Enma, then force them to undo the technique, or die. In the story at least.


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## Turrin (Apr 4, 2014)

Thunder said:


> We're unaware of character's whole arsenals for a reason, though. Viewing this from an author's perspective there isn't enough time to write everything in. Kishi only tells us what we need to know (i.e. what drives the story forward). I think one of the main problem people have with portrayal only arguments is this: they aren't always specific enough. Sure, portrayal alone tells us J-man > most shinobi. What it doesn't tell us, however, is _how_ he would defeat these characters. If you think he wins that's fine, but you can't just assume he's got some super secret space-time jutsu, or something. Because you and I aren't Kishi. We could very well be wrong with our assumptions. A line needs to be drawn somewhere and feats (as well as other data) help us do that.


I don't think the how matters and I don't think via feats or portrayal we'd ever know the "how". Nor should one use portrayal to say someone has a specific Jutsu he hasn't shown, unless there can be a very good case to be made. For example; Jiraiya most likely has one of the basic Doton underground Jutsu, considering he's been portrayed as a Doton-master and the Doton underground skill is pretty much the generic skill among Doton users. That type of stuff I believe is fine.



> If we're going to delve into the realm of speculation we've got to stay reasonable. To me, reasonable is allowing Tsunade the usage of Kage Bunshin. Both of her old teammates and sensei know it. She's possesses fine chakra control and plenty of chakra. She has access to the same Hokage scroll Naruto stole in Part I. There ya go. That's a lot easier to sell around here than, say, giving her Raiton on the level of Chidori.
> 
> Hidan is an extreme example because we both know Kishi was suppose to give him more jutsu, but the editors rushed him. He may have some way to guard against Tsunade's strikes . . . but what is it? If you can't tell me there's no point in bringing it up in a vs. match, because how is your opposition suppose to counter your argument?


Again I don't think it should be brought up in the sense of hey Hidan can use X Jutsu he's never shown to block Y-Jutsu. Like I said the entire idea of how can X Character block Y Jutsu is fundamentally flawed.

Rather it just should be how strong as Kishi portrayed a character to be and would that strength likely loose out to how Kishi portrayed another character. This is a-lot easier to divine than people make it out to be.



> The point of the these threads is to garner debate. If we just go into every topic and say, "X-character wins by default due to this statement or these databook stats" there's nothing to discuss. The section as we know it will die, Turrin.


People can discuss things based on portrayal. I made a thread about Sandaime-Raikage vs Onoki based on portrayal and people discussed it just fine. Yes many threads can be ended very simply, but that's how it should be rather, than people arguing X-Characters beat Y-Characters based on feats, when portrayal has made it clear Y-Characters is stronger. The sections goal is the answer who is more likely to win in a match. If you just want to come up with the best strategies for how a certain shinobi can triumph using their shown arsenal alone I feel that is more KC territory.



> It's flawed, but that's not completely our fault. We've got to work with what the author feeds us and that information isn't always crystal clear.


It becomes ones fault when they assert it as proof, when the author has made it clear that it's not. 



> If that works for you I don't see the problem. Those who say the Battledome is only about feats are misinformed. True, portrayal arguments are usually looked down upon here, but no one is stopping you from using them if you desire. Users can create and set the parameters of just about any match-up you can think of, provided there's enough information to go on. It's up to the individual debaters to decide how they want to debate. If you're unable to convince people with your current arguments, change them.
> 
> Personally, I think you bring an interesting perspective to many of these topics. That's my point: the Battledome should be a place of diverse opinions. I wouldn't want feats to banned here and I wouldn't want hype to be completely banned here, either


Agreed. I just think that there should be an understanding that on a fundamental level feat-centric discussion has been proven to be inherently flawed. If you want to use it for the sake of fun or for the sake of specific discussion, that's cool, but people shouldn't be making the accusations that they do about their feat-centric analysis's being fact.



> You assume they're fodder because they lack feats outside of their sealing abilities, which is what their hype is based around.


I say they are fodder because they are nameless ninja that have little else going for them; that's just how we describe ninja like that. 



> In that particular scenario, yes, it's silly to say Hiruzen is unable to do anything. That doesn't prove a feat-centric argument is always silly, though. It depends entirely on the situation. There's nothing wrong with giving Hiruzen some leeway there considering he was one of the strongest Hokage in history and is very knowledgeable to boot.


The problem is I can easily demonstrate the silliness in almost every single feat-based discussion. Bring me two characters and i'll tell you why feats don't work. In-fact bring a whole list. If characters as featured as Gaara keep producing new feats, how can a feat based discussion tell us anything about anyone, except again how two specific well defined Jutsu will probably interact.



> Without going into too much speculation: Hiruzen would just search out the caster with his crystal ball thingy, beat on them with Enma, then force them to undo the technique, or die. In the story at least.


Maybe or maybe he'd pull out a Fuuinjutsu on a lower level, that can seal Shin after beating him down. Really we don't know, but what we can be sure of is that Kishi would never write Edo-Shin beating Hiruzen; so in that match Hiruzen should win regardless of what the feats say.


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## eyeknockout (Apr 5, 2014)

itachi blitzes him and chops his head off before kimi can even react. drunk lee was as fast as kimimaro, sasuke back then was much faster than lee. Bee was much faster than sasuke and itachi was blitzing both a upgraded sasuke and bee and rm naruto. kimimaro is not even close.


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## Thunder (Apr 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I don't think the how matters and I don't think via feats or portrayal we'd ever know the "how". Nor should one use portrayal to say someone has a specific Jutsu he hasn't shown, unless there can be a very good case to be made. For example; Jiraiya most likely has one of the basic Doton underground Jutsu, considering he's been portrayed as a Doton-master and the Doton underground skill is pretty much the generic skill among Doton users. That type of stuff I believe is fine.



Gotcha. 



> Again I don't think it should be brought up in the sense of hey Hidan can use X Jutsu he's never shown to block Y-Jutsu. Like I said the entire idea of how can X Character block Y Jutsu is fundamentally flawed.Rather it just should be how strong as Kishi portrayed a character to be and would that strength likely loose out to how Kishi portrayed another character. This is a-lot easier to divine than people make it out to be.


Alright, just making sure. 



> People can discuss things based on portrayal. I made a thread about Sandaime-Raikage vs Onoki based on portrayal and people discussed it just fine. Yes many threads can be ended very simply, but that's how it should be rather, than people arguing X-Characters beat Y-Characters based on feats, when portrayal has made it clear Y-Characters is stronger. The sections goal is the answer who is more likely to win in a match. If you just want to come up with the best strategies for how a certain shinobi can triumph using their shown arsenal alone I feel that is more KC territory.


Sure, people can discuss certain topics by examining characters' portrayal. I've done it myself; most people have here. But if you link me to that thread I bet I'll find several people using feats in some shape or form to supplement their portrayal arguments. It's only natural when discussing vs. topics. We compare one character's shown or assumed abilities to another and see how they'd interact. 

Exactly. And how do we figure out who wins? By debating and sharing ideas. Clearly feat-centric arguments foster debate around here because that's what the majority uses and it's been like this for awhile from what I can tell. Basically, if it ain't broke don't fix it. 



> It becomes ones fault when they assert it as proof, when the author has made it clear that it's not.


We are all interpreting the author's message in different ways; doesn't matter if we're using feats or portrayal. Whether we choose to use feats only or hype only, we're still trading one faulty method for another (no one here is Kishi, thus a limit exists to how accurate our interpretations are) and the end result is still the same: disagreements. What any debate section runs on.

There's no "one size fits all" way to determine a winner in these hypothetical bouts. Because the author has zero input here aside from contextual statements and features that he gives us, which are often times left open for interpretation. Unless Kishi descends to the Battledome and gives us his blessings we're left fumbling around in the dark for the most part, attempting to make sense of messages that have long since been distorted by fan-biases. 



> Agreed. I just think that there should be an understanding that on a fundamental level feat-centric discussion has been proven to be inherently flawed. If you want to use it for the sake of fun or for the sake of specific discussion, that's cool, but people shouldn't be making the accusations that they do about their feat-centric analysis's being fact.


You're absolutely correct, but the same can be said of portrayal. They are all flawed when you get down to it Turrin, for reasons I stated above.



> I say they are fodder because they are nameless ninja that have little else going for them; that's just how we describe ninja like that.


Fair enough; I won't nitpick.



> The problem is I can easily demonstrate the silliness in almost every single feat-based discussion. Bring me two characters and i'll tell you why feats don't work. In-fact bring a whole list. If characters as featured as Gaara keep producing new feats, how can a feat based discussion tell us anything about anyone, except again how two specific well defined Jutsu will probably interact.


Well, features were never suppose to be the best method to use in the first place. We're just settling here since none of us are Kishimoto and often times there are far more feats to work with than statements.



> Maybe or maybe he'd pull out a Fuuinjutsu on a lower level, that can seal Shin after beating him down. Really we don't know, but what we can be sure of is that Kishi would never write Edo-Shin beating Hiruzen; so in that match Hiruzen should win regardless of what the feats say.


Depends on what Kishimoto is trying to convey there. For example, Hiruzen didn't try as hard as he could against Orochimaru in the beginning of their fight and that could've cost him the match. Tsunade almost lost to Kabuto because of her rustiness and blood phobia. Then there's the arrogant villains who choose to hold back out of pride and later get their shit pushed in. A character's psychological and emotional states are also factors, but generally you're correct.


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## Rocky (Apr 5, 2014)

The best way to determine character strength: Statements.

The second way: Feats.

Claiming to know where Kishimoto places _each individual character_ is called mind reading.

Protip: We aren't mind readers.


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## Thunder (Apr 5, 2014)

Anyway Turrin bro . . . I feel we're getting way too off topic here so this will probably be my last reply. If you want to continue this discussion elsewhere, though, I'm all for it.


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## eyeknockout (Apr 5, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Anyway Turrin bro . . . I feel we're getting way too off topic here so this will probably be my last reply. *If you want to continue this discussion elsewhere, though, I'm all for it*.





it's serious now, it's about to get physical. Your move Turrin


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 5, 2014)

eyeknockout said:


> it's serious now, it's about to get physical. Your move Turrin



I put my money on Thunder. Based on portrayal.


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## Ghost (Apr 5, 2014)

Vice said:


> No, that's not it and it's laughable that you'd say shit like this.



Feel free to start explaining. 



Turrin said:


> I'm sorry, but if Kishi was going to allow Itachi to simply chakra walk to escape the bones, he wouldn't have had Itachi pull out Susano'o to defend himself against Swarabi no Mai, in he Kabuto fight.



As someone already said, he pulled out the Susano'o to cut down the bones.


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## Turrin (Apr 5, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Anyway Turrin bro . . . I feel we're getting way too off topic here so this will probably be my last reply. If you want to continue this discussion elsewhere, though, I'm all for it.


Send me a response in VM or PM.



saikyou said:


> As someone already said, he pulled out the Susano'o to cut down the bones.


And why did he cut down the bones, because simple chakra walking wasn't enough to deal with them. It's extremely obvious.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 7, 2014)

Check out that three in strength.


*Spoiler*: __ 









Oh, and Kin took a spin kick to the face with that strength.  



Given that legs are way stronger than arms, that's some serious durability right there.  I don't know what Sakura thought that giant log would do to anyone's skulls.

I don't even have a point, except maybe that Thunder is right, and the casual reader gets a better sense of this manga that people like us who analyze it.  But even if not, I just find this funny and wanted to share it.


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## Turrin (Apr 7, 2014)

@POW

They are all superhuman, so 3 makes senses. As for Kin surviving the kick, fluctuating durability is pretty par for the course in shonen mangas.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 9, 2014)

Why is there a need to spout delusions elsewhere?


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