# Obito Uchiha vs. Pain (Nagato Uzumaki)



## Shinobi1jutsu (Nov 21, 2017)

Obito Uchiha vs. Pain (Nagato Uzumaki) 

It seems that these two are generally considered the strongest Akatsuki members. (by most people)

1. So... who is above who???

2. Which of these has more power, and who would win in an ALL-OUT fight???

3. Also, what is the likelihood that a healthy Itachi Uchiha could beat either of them?


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## IpHr0z3nI (Nov 21, 2017)

Obito is more so


Shinobi1jutsu said:


> Obito Uchiha vs. Pain (Nagato Uzumaki)
> 
> It seems that these two are generally considered the strongest Akatsuki members. (by most people)


And that's ultimately where opinions fail. Obito was not depicted as anything but annoying prior to acquiring the Rinnegan. Hence him being pitted against Danzo's minions opposed to Danzo himself. Hence him being pitted against Konan, the same Konan that was one-shotted by Jiraiya. Against Minato he was thrashed quite easily, hence his position among the Akatsuki power ranking among the lower end of the spectrum.(Prior to obtaining the Rinnegan of course)

With that being said Pain would still have to work for this kill, as with any power house. Kumai is broken, but it has it's weaknesses. One of those weaknesses is that he cannot attack and defend simultaneously. Another weakness is that he's vulnerable if he's attacked from both sides. Hence he had to keep Torun and Fuu in a genjutsu while locking them up in Kumai's dimension. People either forget or overlook that Obito phasing was useless when Kakashi warped himself into the Kumai dimension itself. He became top priority, as Obito couldn't phase without the risk of being attacked by Kakashi.



> 1. So... who is above who???


Pain is above Obito; hence him being assigned Kurama.
It was only after obtaining the Rinnegan that Obito opted to decide and go collect the the remaining Kyubi himself.



> 2. Which of these has more power, and who would win in an ALL-OUT fight???


Pain is better offensively, and has the tools to defeat Obito handily. Send Asura to get intentionally warped, as he has the best taijutsu capability among the six. Then it's just a matter of taking advantage of Obito phasing. Either he's forced to deal with the offensive power of five paths, or overwhelmed by one or two depending on how many he wants to send to be intentionally warped by Kumai. Once again Obito is annoying, he's not a power house with just one of his eyes.



> 3. Also, what is the likelihood that a healthy Itachi Uchiha could beat either of them?


Itachi is not beating pain without a power up.
Tsukuyomi effectiveness being unknown is the greatest hindrance to his ability to beat pain. He has the firepower to get past most of mains firepower, but I still see no way around CT(although Deva had to be remotely close to Nagato to prep that). I do think a healthy Itachi could beat Obito, as Obito doesn't have much fire power, and Itachi uses clones. Itachi would still have to play it smart do to his low stamina pool, but he most certainly has a good shot at beating Obito.

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## Bonly (Nov 21, 2017)

1) Obito is above Pain

2) Pain has more firepower but in an all out fight I'd favor Obito to come out on top

3) Itachi would need full knowledge and some kind of prep to take out Obito but he stands no chance against Pain

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ultrafragor (Nov 21, 2017)

The Kakashi thing was just lolplot

Obito has dozens of giant kunai and stakes flying around in that dimension that, if he opens a portal to let them out, shoot out hard enough to kill.

If those objects were flying around at that speed, but also in a location where they would fly out if he opened a portal, then anyone Obito sent into kamui-land, including himself, would be immediately torn to scraps by the storm of fuma kunai that are apparently perpetually in flight inside the kamui dimension.

Hell, when Obito phased to avoid Naruto's attacks, the Susano'o arrows that Kakashi warped a while back should have punched off whatever part of him had entered the other dimension.


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## Come off it (Nov 21, 2017)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Obito is more so
> 
> And that's ultimately where opinions fail. Obito was not depicted as anything but annoying prior to acquiring the Rinnegan. Hence him being pitted against Danzo's minions opposed to Danzo himself. Hence him being pitted against Konan, the same Konan that was one-shotted by Jiraiya. Against Minato he was thrashed quite easily, hence his position among the Akatsuki power ranking among the lower end of the spectrum.(Prior to obtaining the Rinnegan of course)
> 
> ...


I agree with all of your points. Not much else to be said.

Reactions: Like 1


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## IpHr0z3nI (Nov 21, 2017)

Ultrafragor said:


> The Kakashi thing was just lolplot


But it's not with just Kakashi.

Boxland is just that. Boxland. We've seen that with Sasuke and Karin. Kakashi, etc.



> Obito has dozens of giant kunai and stakes flying around in that dimension that, if he opens a portal to let them out, shoot out hard enough to kill.


No he actually doesn't. Hence why Torun and Fuu needed to be kept under genjutsu to be prevent them from doing further damage. The only time we've seen that is against the alliance, and we've seen Obito actively sucking in the Kunai in the first place. 

Kakashi being safe in boxland wasn't a fluke. Sasuke and Karin were also safe. However maybe I'm underestimating Obito's ability to engage individuals in his dimension one on one.



> If those objects were flying around at that speed, but also in a location where they would fly out if he opened a portal, then anyone Obito sent into kamui-land, including himself, would be immediately torn to scraps by the storm of fuma kunai that are apparently perpetually in flight inside the kamui dimension.


This has never happened. Box Land isn't a dimension where random Kunai and shuriken are flying around. It's been showcase as a room full of boxes.



> Hell, when Obito phased to avoid Naruto's attacks, the Susano'o arrows that Kakashi warped a while back should have punched off whatever part of him had entered the other dimension.


What? Seriously?

The time frame between Obito avoiding Naruto's attack and Kakashi warping the arrows was drastic. There are so many things that could have happened the arrows could have been lost somewhere in the dimension. Stuck in a pillar, thus not moving, etc.

We've seen how Obito dimension works, and it's essentially a world full of boxes. The only thing to countering it completely is the size of the dimension which judging from Kakashi having no problem finding Obito probably isn't that large.


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## The_Conqueror (Nov 21, 2017)

Obito should win more often then not.  

He can force ST and Asura lasers to damage themselves while faking to attack 

Paths are not fast enough to land hit 
Animal and summons are dealt with Katons /trapped in uchiha kaenjin 

Izanagi guarentess victory. 

Itachi can't beat Obito/Pain under Normal stipulations and knowledge


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## Mar55 (Nov 21, 2017)

Shinobi1jutsu said:


> 1. So... who is above who???


Obito is the leader for a reason.


Shinobi1jutsu said:


> 2. Which of these has more power, and who would win in an ALL-OUT fight???


Pain has more raw power and outright DC, however Obito would win.


Shinobi1jutsu said:


> 3. Also, what is the likelihood that a healthy Itachi Uchiha could beat either of them?


Very low, almost nonexistent without full knowledge for both and heaps of prep. Though, as the manga demonstrates, prep doesn't always make the difference.

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## IpHr0z3nI (Nov 21, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Obito is the leader for a reason.


Please oh please don't try to utilize portrayal to dictate power hear. Pain/Nagato is the strongest. Obito was, as the real leader, was portrayed to be barely above Konan. Yes she had prep, but Jiraiya was allowed to one shot her. That should showcase to you just how much respect Kishi had for the Obito being showcased her.



> Pain has more raw power and outright DC, however Obito would win.


How? When pain has six people Obito needs to absorb? How? When only attack is a an attack that leaves him open if he opts to utilize it as leisurely as you guys are trying to make him use it.

Put it this way. Kishi wasn't willing to put Kumailess Obito over Kumailess Kakashi. Pain raped Kakashi with two bodies if I remember. And yes he had access to Kumai.



> Very low, almost nonexistent without full knowledge for both and heaps of prep. Though, as the manga demonstrates, prep doesn't always make the difference.


There isn't much one needs to know about Obito as he's as straightforward as they come. He cannot be hit by the traditional means so no need to pull out the big guns. He needs to touch you and successfully warp you in order to defeat you. And he needs to be vulnerable to warp you. What happens if Itachi opts to utilize an explosive clone, and Obito takes the bait. That's Konan all over again is it not? 

The problem with you Obito fans is that you don't take into account is how Kishi is portraying Obito. Obito is portrayed as a coward and a manipulator. The only person he was willing to take on himself were Danzo's minions and Konan. Looks like someone learned from his bout with Minato. Once again Obito is annoying, he isn't particularly powerful. Which is why he needed the Rinnegan for fire power. And why among the Akatsuki, on the offensive end, he as threatening as Hidan. Think about it.

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## Charmed (Nov 21, 2017)

I agree with @IpHr0z3nI 
Pain is above Obito in power. Nagato could use Both Rinegan at the same time, w/o having Uchiha nor Senju blood, while Obito could not.
Pain beats Obito. (Sensing , Shared Vision and ST counter Kamui perfectly).
Itachi is not on the same league as Pain is, as simple as dat.


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## Gohara (Nov 21, 2017)

The Rinnegan Obito > Normal Obito/Prime Nagato > the Paths version of Nagato in my opinion.


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## Mar55 (Nov 22, 2017)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Please oh please don't try to utilize portrayal to dictate power hear. Pain/Nagato is the strongest. Obito was, as the real leader, was portrayed to be barely above Konan. Yes she had prep, but Jiraiya was allowed to one shot her. That should showcase to you just how much respect Kishi had for the Obito being showcased her.


Yeah, the akatsuki member with full knowledge and extensive prep manager to push, that's a bad thing how? Jiraya is her former sensei, and happens to use her known weakness. Have you ever considered match ups are a thing? Naruto the manga does.

As for pedigrees, Obito is that man that controller Kurama at 14, and challenged Minato. To the point where Minato suspected he was truly Madara Uchiha. Dislike for the man aside, that says a lot about what Kishi thinks about him.

Obito has openly mocked Pain, and stated his failure against Naruto wouldn't be accepted. You don't make those sort of threats if you're weaker than your employees.


IpHr0z3nI said:


> How? When pain has six people Obito needs to absorb? How? When only attack is a an attack that leaves him open if he opts to utilize it as leisurely as you guys are trying to make him use it.


You must be one of those people that pretend kamui is the only thing Obito can use. You're forgetting his wood release, fire release, uchiha barrier, giant weapons and the like.

Obito doesn't fight that straightforward, he's prone to phase while attacking, to force a team kill. He was also prone to phasing through obstructions, during which he can't be sensed.

He's also willing to use Izanagi if forced into a hard spot, that's what the Konan fight also showed us. If things look ugly, he could respawn and take out the Deva Path, seeing as he's the most dangerous.


IpHr0z3nI said:


> Put it this way. Kishi wasn't willing to put Kumailess Obito over Kumailess Kakashi. Pain raped Kakashi with two bodies if I remember. And yes he had access to Kumai.



That's nonsense, the only fight we see Kamuiless Obito in, against Kakashi, he willingly loses. Specifically controlling the outcome, to force Kakashi to destroy his heart and the seal on it. Try some context guy.


IpHr0z3nI said:


> There isn't much one needs to know about Obito as he's as straightforward as they come. He cannot be hit by the traditional means so no need to pull out the big guns. He needs to touch you and successfully warp you in order to defeat you. And he needs to be vulnerable to warp you. What happens if Itachi opts to utilize an explosive clone, and Obito takes the bait. That's Konan all over again is it not?



Except that's exactly opposite to Obito's fighting style, that's why everyone that fought him, knowledge and prep aside, was dumbfounded with his abilities.

You wouldn't know if Obito was actually phased or not, as we see with Minato, and Fū and Torune. That warp speed is impressive, considering he had Minato worried and could warp into Jinton and save Sasuke, before anyone noticed.

Obito easily fast enough to warp that clone before it explodes, or the explosion itself. Obito was hit with dozens of bombs, and still managed to warp most of the explosions away, despite needing to be touching something to warp it. Not like it would do damage if it hit, considering it barely scratch Kakashi. Not to mention ranking Rasengans with minor damage, if any.

He could also just switch to phasing, even Kakashi could see through that clone trick, despite not being able to clearly follow Itachi's hands. Obito would have no such problems.

The better question is, what would Itachi do when Obito walks past his every attack, then warps him? Stop equating Konan, someone that had the proper abilities and prep to counter Kamui, with Itachi, someone that can't bypass Kamui.


IpHr0z3nI said:


> The problem with you Obito fans is that you don't take into account is how Kishi is portraying Obito.


You're must be talking about the wrong Obito. The Obito I'm talking about was a threat to Minato at 14, was slaughtering anbu squads at 14, could control a perfect Jin Mizukage for years and was directly compared to Madara himself. I think you're missing his portrayal.


IpHr0z3nI said:


> Obito is portrayed as a coward and a manipulator. The only person he was willing to take on himself were Danzo's minions and Konan. Looks like someone learned from his bout with Minato.



So, because he prefers to manipulate other strong people for his own ends, he's weak? So, you must talking about near everyone in Naruto. Kaguya, Madara, Pain, Itachi, Sasuke, Orochimaru, Kabuto and yes, Obito. You see how defeatist that line of thinking is?

He's a manipulator because it's smart, he's good at it. Why not use someone when they serve your own ends, and you can only gain from having them work for you. Mind you, that's for you, not with you. As said before, he was direct in his orders to Pain, Kisame, Sasuke and Itachi. He's been shown directly threatening Pain and Sasuke, Itachi was worried about his prowess and struck a deal, and Kisame was completely subservient.

He only took out Danzo's minions, who he noted were skilled Anbu, so they wouldn't interfere with Sasuke's fight. You're forgetting he toyed with them, sacrificing an arm just because. As for Konan, why do you people think she's some fodder? She's former Akatsuki, and it shows. How is going to kill an Akatsuki member a bad thing? Sasuke, Shikamaru and Naruto get praise for facing down Akatsuki members.

Not to forget, Obito specifically noted he underestimated her, as she is former Akatsuki. If it matters in the manga, it damn sure should matter on these forums.

Yeah he learned from his fight with Minato, he learned to go for faints, or phase through an assault and warp you on the way out. Glad you mentioned it, apparently you've been paying some attention to the manga.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Once again Obito is annoying, he isn't particularly powerful.


Nonsense, he's the man that directly trained someone like Itachi, who noted him his master. He most likely gave Pain Rinnegan knowledge, since he directly from Madara. If pressuring Minato, one of the strongest Ninja in history, doesn't make you oowerful, nothing will.


IpHr0z3nI said:


> Which is why he needed the Rinnegan for fire power.


No, he needed that for controlling the Gedo, sealing the Bijū in the Edo and becoming a Jūbi Jin. He never even used the Rinnegan directly in combat, aside from shared vision, which he himself didn't benefit from.


IpHr0z3nI said:


> Which is why he needed the Rinnegan for fire power. And why among the Akatsuki, on the offensive end, he as threatening as Hidan. Think about it.


Yeah, the man with Mokuton, Jūbi sized Katon, Bijū sized barries, human sized stakes/shurikens/kunai, extremely potent Genjutsu, strength to push back KCM Naruto's and the lauded Uchiha skill and a spammable MS is Hidan level.

That's like saying Itachi is Hebi Sasuke level, because he chose to lose to him. Ignoring that, in both cases(OvK, IvS) someone was holding back to lose. Kakashi also didn't take a single scratch from Hidan, and even avoided his and Kakazu's combos. He also gets stronger, displaying better feats as the series progresses, as usual.

I think you're convinced Tobi was his actual persona, despite us fully seeing what he's actually capable of. As well as what legendary Ninja in their own right think of his abilities. They're nothing to sneeze at, and you're greatly underselling him.

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## Charmed (Nov 22, 2017)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Obito was, as the real leader, was portrayed to be barely above Konan.


I think below her TBH, he was just a par of the organization,
I think that if he was strogner than Pain/Nagato he could probably steal the Rinnegan and do it all by himself, but Konan was portrayed to be enough to kill him (she actually did, but Izanagi did it's thing :''v).
So taking on both Nagato and Konan, it's out of the question, at least for me x'D.


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## Skimandla (Nov 22, 2017)

Pain > Ms Obito
kamui is broken but shared vision , instant ST, invisible summons, can take advantage of kamui. , 
Konan almost killed obito during mid-wap

Kamui is GG against fodders

rinne Obito >  nagato>  pain >ms obito

Who is Prime Nagato, what is his 
Strength , speed , DC . etc

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## Mar55 (Nov 22, 2017)

Charmed said:


> I think below her TBH, he was just a par of the organization,


>par for the organization
>was noted as powerful enough to threaten numerous legendary shinobi
Pick one.


Charmed said:


> I think that if he was strogner than Pain/Nagato he could probably steal the Rinnegan and do it all by himself



That goes against the idea of manipulating things from the behind the scene, something everyone was a fan of doing. Why sacrifice your rook when you can use it to steal their queen?


Charmed said:


> but Konan was portrayed to be enough to kill him (she actually did, but Izanagi did it's thing :''v).


Yes, with prep and full knowledge. Something many lack, and even with it, lack a counter to Kamui still.

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## IpHr0z3nI (Nov 22, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Yeah, the akatsuki member with full knowledge and extensive prep manager to push, that's a bad thing how? Jiraya is her former sensei, and happens to use her known weakness. Have you ever considered match ups are a thing? Naruto the manga does.


Lol, what about Torun and Fuu? Didn't Obito lose an arm to them or something?



> As for pedigrees, Obito is that man that controller Kurama at 14, and challenged Minato.


And once again he lost an arm, right? He may have challenged Minato, but he was thoroughly trashed.



> To the point where Minato suspected he was truly Madara Uchiha.


It's because he had control of Kurama, which was something only akin to Madara at the time. Let's not go down this route because when Madara emerged on the seen he was portrayed to be on a whole nother lvl in comparison to Minato.



> Dislike for the man aside, that says a lot about what Kishi thinks about him.


Lost convincingly to Minato.
Barely beating Konan, who with prep, was still one of the weakest of the Akatsuki by comparison. Losing an arm to Torun and Fuu? Kishi didn't portray him to be very strong without the Rinnegan, Kurama, etc. You're simply proving my point.

Obito has openly mocked Pain, and stated his failure against Naruto wouldn't be accepted. You don't make those sort of threats if you're weaker than your employees.



> You must be one of those people that pretend kamui is the only thing Obito can use. You're forgetting his wood release, fire release, uchiha barrier, giant weapons and the like.


He only utilize wood release in a flashback. Against fodder.(Proving my point again) His fire release is respectable, but hardly raises his tier. The same with the Kunai uses. He's going against pain, who has an answer to everything you cited.

But once again you proving my point. If Obito has access to wood release, fire release, weapons, why would Kishi limit him to just Kumai in his most important fights? What's with the inconsistencies with Obito power level?



> Obito doesn't fight that straightforward, he's prone to phase while attacking, to force a team kill. He was also prone to phasing through obstructions, during which he can't be sensed.


And this is the reason why he's overrated, at least among the Uchiha family. Earlier you compared him to Madara, but he was depicted to be below MS Sasuke in training. It wasn't Obito who took out Danzo. But it was Obito who was the first one to attempt to nab Shisui's eye the minute after Sasuke defeated Danzo. Once again, what is Kishi doing.



> He's also willing to use Izanagi if forced into a hard spot, that's what the Konan fight also showed us.


And this pushes him to pains tier? Once again, if Kishimoto wanted it, he would have made short work of Konan. 





> If things look ugly, he could respawn and take out the Deva Path, seeing as he's the most dangerous.


And bypass five other bodies? If it didn't work on Sasuke it's certainly not working on pain.




> That's nonsense, the only fight we see Kamuiless Obito in, against Kakashi, he willingly loses.


So he intentionally lost?


> Specifically controlling the outcome, to force Kakashi to destroy his heart and the seal on it. Try some context guy.


Context? Who is the one not willing to take Obito's showcasing shortcomings as face value? You try to hype him, but the footage tells the story of a Uchiha who couldn't be seen a formidable without additional power ups. First Kurama, then wood release, etc.

His best feat prior to the war is defeating Konan. A character in context was the angel to pains god.




> Except that's exactly opposite to Obito's fighting style, that's why everyone that fought him, knowledge and prep aside, was dumbfounded with his abilities.


Like who? Clarification please.



> You wouldn't know if Obito was actually phased or not, as we see with Minato, and Fū and Torune. That warp speed is impressive, considering he had Minato worried and could warp into Jinton and save Sasuke, before anyone noticed.


Never said it wasn't. I said before he's more annoying than powerful. But his weakness is that he uses Kumai for both offense and defense. That gap in timing is what led to his downfall against Minato. His failure to capture Naruto. His failure to capture Konan.



> Obito easily fast enough to warp that clone before it explodes, or the explosion itself.


Lol, he couldn't even warp Konan before she performed a similar tactic.(Please read to the Konan fight) 





> Obito was hit with dozens of bombs, and still managed to warp most of the explosions away, despite needing to be touching something to warp it.


And lost an arm. I wouldn't call that easy.


> Not like it would do damage if it hit, considering it barely scratch Kakashi.


At point blank range? Consider he lost an arm to Konan's paper bombs. I think you are overrating Obito's durability. I guess that's where Izanagi comes in.



> Not to mention ranking Rasengans with minor damage, if any.


He lost an arm.



> He could also just switch to phasing, even Kakashi could see through that clone trick, despite not being able to clearly follow Itachi's hands. Obito would have no such problems.


Switching to phasing would prevent him from going on the offense. Being unable to pressure Itachi is the last thing you want to do considering his intellect.



> The better question is, what would Itachi do when Obito walks past his every attack, then warps him?


Like he walked up to Torun and Fuu and warped them. Or Konan. Or Minato? Or Naruto. Seriously guy, who has Obito ever manage to warp outright? You must not understand how Obito's power work.(Job core)

He cannot phase while warping. Which is why he had to stop warping Konan and Minato in order to remain on the defense. Obito is a defensive fighter first. Walking up to anybody and warping them is not is forte. 





> Stop equating Konan, someone that had the proper abilities and prep to counter Kamui, with Itachi, someone that can't bypass Kamui.


Konan, with prep, would have gotten bodied by Madara, who you were equating Obito to earlier in terms of portrayal.

Who doesn't have prep when facing a Uchiha? After Sasuke acquired the MS he was instantly pitted against opponents who had direct counters to attacks, so Obito isn't alone in being put against enemies with prep and counters to his assault. But he is the only Uchiha to be depicted on par with any variation of Konan after acquiring the MS.



> You're must be talking about the wrong Obito. The Obito I'm talking about was a threat to Minato at 14, was slaughtering anbu squads at 14, could control a perfect Jin Mizukage for years and was directly compared to Madara himself. I think you're missing his portrayal.


Threat to Minato? Really? Minato left that battle unscathed. You must be mistaking Obito for Jubito. Let's not forget he had access to Kurama. That's the only reason why he would even opt to challenge Minato at 14.

Various ninjas at 14? You mean fodder? Talk about reaching for the stars. Obito's feats prior to acquiring the Rinnegan consist of besting Torun, Fuu, and Konan. None of these would be considered a challenge for Minato, Itachi, Pain, or whoever you're trying to prove Obito is more powerful than.

Obito is manipulator and a mastermind.(Prior to acquiring the Rinnegan of course) He isn't a front line fighter. No the person who is mistaking Obito's character is you.




> So, because he prefers to manipulate other strong people for his own ends, he's weak?


NO. Madara is the same.
It's because he is forced to use others to do what he obviously could not that he is depicted as weak. Sending a Sasuke, MS in training, to weaken the Kage's is what depicts him as weak. See what the actual Madara did the five Kage's and come back and holler at me.

You are missing the point Mr. 55. Obito isn't weak. He just isn't as strong as people are depicting him to be without the Rinnegan. Hence is why Kishi had him attempt to retrieve it in the first place. Notice the difference between Obito's demeanor before and after acquiring the Rinnegan, he was certainly more willing to do things himself. Despite still having options.
So, you must talking about near everyone in Naruto. Kaguya, Madara, Pain, Itachi, Sasuke, Orochimaru, Kabuto and yes, Obito. You see how defeatist that line of thinking is?



> He's a manipulator because it's smart, he's good at it. Why not use someone when they serve your own ends, and you can only gain from having them work for you.


Why not do both?

Madara was depicted to be a manipulator and a regulator. He was a front line fighter as with Itachi and Sasuke. Obito is the only major Uchiha to be depicted as a opportunist and somewhat cowardly. He cherry picked his fights. If you cannot understand that then these Uchiha characters aren't for you.



> Mind you, that's for you, not with you. As said before, he was direct in his orders to Pain, Kisame, Sasuke and Itachi.


Ordering someone doesn't make you the strongest. We all know the real mastermind behind the Akatsuki was Madara, and he was far from the sharpest tool in the shed prior to his revival.



> He's been shown directly threatening Pain and Sasuke, Itachi was worried about his prowess and struck a deal, and Kisame was completely subservient.


Page please. Because I know this manga like the back of my hand. He didn't threaten none of the characters listed. He simply gave them orders. Orders which coincided with what they wanted to do to begin with.

You are not going to win this fight. I know these Uchiha like the back of my hand. Obito utilized manipulation and had others do what he couldn't. Notice the change in demeanor after acquiring the Rinnegan. He didn't wait for no Kisame, Pain, or Sasuke to capture the eight or nine tails. He went after that ass himself.



> He only took out Danzo's minions, who he noted were skilled Anbu, so they wouldn't interfere with Sasuke's fight.


He wanted Danzo's eye. Had he been able to take out Danzo without Sasuke's aid he would have. 





> You're forgetting he toyed with them, sacrificing an arm just because.


Losing an arm is not toying with someone. Unless Raikage was toying with MS Sasuke as well. 





> As for Konan, why do you people think she's some fodder?


Never said she was fodder. But she was proven hardly helpful against both Jiriya and Konoha. When talking about the strongest of the Akatsuki, even with prep, she wouldn't be placed higher than Sasori and Deidara.





> She's former Akatsuki, and it shows. How is going to kill an Akatsuki member a bad thing? Sasuke, Shikamaru and Naruto get praise for facing down Akatsuki members.


Neither Hebi Sasuke, Shikamaru, or Naruto had access to the resources Obito had with facing Konan, which was the MS.

Look we are not questioning whether Obito a formidable opponent. We are discussing can he win against a tier he was never depicted to be in prior to acquiring the Rinnegan.



> Not to forget, Obito specifically noted he underestimated her, as she is former Akatsuki. If it matters in the manga, it damn sure should matter on these forums.


But underestimating her doesn't change the fact that he was almost killed by someone who was depicted to be on the lower end of the Akatsuki perspective.

We are discussing if he could defeat pain, and or Itachi. And his best attack not only fails to kill his opponent, but leaves him open to attack in one way or another.

I hate Obito fights because people ignore that Kumai GG never happened at any point in the manga. He needed genjutsu to keep Torun and Fuu from harming him while being trapped in Kumai land. Proving that Kumai GG isn't as full proof a strategy as depicted to be in the battledome.



> Yeah he learned from his fight with Minato, he learned to go for faints, or phase through an assault and warp you on the way out. Glad you mentioned it, apparently you've been paying some attention to the manga.


Oh believe me I know these Uchiha like the back of my hand. And Obito learned more than just more efficient way to utilize Kumai. He learned to utilize others to do what he could not until he was forced to do so. Notice he went after the Rinnegan before attempting to capture bee or Naruto, right? So who is really paying attention to this manga.

In the end. No one is arguing that Obito is powerful. The question here is can he beat Nagato or worse Itachi. And so far nothing you posted proves he even in Itachi's tier.




> Nonsense, he's the man that directly trained someone like Itachi, who noted him his master.


Trained Itachi? In what? They share nothing in common outside of the basic what is granted to them by the traditional sharingan. Unless you are talking about the art of run.(Disregard that it's an old forum joke)





> He most likely gave Pain Rinnegan knowledge, since he directly from Madara.


Now who is adding things not shown iin the manga. Jiraya if anything was show to be the biggest influence on Nagato's power, and even that is pushing it.



> If pressuring Minato, one of the strongest Ninja in history, doesn't make you oowerful, nothing will.


Minato isn't Madara. He doesn't have allot of jutsu in his arsenal. Hence is why he got the edo buffs.(SM and BM)
Prior to that Minato was as straightforward as they come. Harashin and rasengan was his go to moves. And let's not pretend that he gave the best performance against Minato, he was oneshotted if I recall. Then he utilized the the art of run, when it proven that he was no match for the fourth Hokage.



> No, he needed that for controlling the Gedo, sealing the Bijū in the Edo and becoming a Jūbi Jin.


All of those are upgrades. And let's not pretend that he didn't control six jinchuriki prior to doing all that. He needed the Rinnegan for war.



> He never even used the Rinnegan directly in combat, aside from shared vision, which he himself didn't benefit from.


So Naruto, Bee, and Kakashi did not have the face six Jinchuuriki? I recall one of the Naruto's best feat was deflecting six Bijudama's.(One of his best feats at the time by the way)

Seems like you are the one disregarding manga facts.



> Yeah, the man with Mokuton, Jūbi sized Katon, Bijū sized barries, human sized stakes/shurikens/kunai, extremely potent Genjutsu, strength to push back KCM Naruto's and the lauded Uchiha skill and a spammable MS is Hidan level.


He only utilized wood release at its most basic level. His Katon could be countered by both pain and Itachi rather easily.(Which you ignore was the topic) The same can be said about his shuriken. Although he did kill Konan by stabbing her with a pole. I guess every dog has his day. I concede. Obito with a pipe is stronger both Pain and Itachi................NOT.

As far as pressuring KCM Naruto. Once  again you exaggerating. KCM Naruto needed nothing but a mere cloak to tank those attack. I compared him to hidan because they they essentially behave the same way in the battledome. One hit is treated as GG. When in reality both are very limited in the way their attack GG. Hidan needs to close the distance and draw blood from his opponent. Much like Obito needs to close the distance and actually successfully drop his defense in order to engage in his rather limited offense. His wood release isn't anything to be threaten by and his Katon, etc. Can easily be blocked by both Pain and Itachi rather easily. Trying staying on topic, please.



> That's like saying Itachi is Hebi Sasuke level, because he chose to lose to him. Ignoring that, in both cases(OvK, IvS) someone was holding back to lose.


Who did Obito choose to lose too? Kakashi? What makes you think that? 





> Kakashi also didn't take a single scratch from Hidan, and even avoided his and Kakazu's combos. He also gets stronger, displaying better feats as the series progresses, as usual.


Kakashi had back up, and I don't recall him engaging against Hidan.(Although I could be wrong) It was Kakuzu who Kakashi was fighting. Nice try though.



> I think you're convinced Tobi was his actual persona, despite us fully seeing what he's actually capable of.


An opportunist until he acquired the Rinnegan.



> As well as what legendary Ninja in their own right think of his abilities. They're nothing to sneeze at, and you're greatly underselling him.


Am I underselling him, or am I just pointing out how Kishi depicted him?
I know what Obito can do. I'm a Uchihatard at heart. But I'm a Uchihatard that isn't afraid to call the kettle black. And Kumai GG is a myth, especially Obito's variation, that rides the coat tails of Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu that actually has those feats. When discussing Obito do actually think people pay attention to anything other than Kumai's potential? I'm pretty sure people aren't ranking Obito as being above pain do to having access to wood release, etc. etc.

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 1


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## LostSelf (Nov 22, 2017)

Pain is generally above Obito, and is considered stronger in my book. Obito is a bad matchup more than just being above. And still is a hard battle considering linked vision or outside vision has helped against even Hiraishin, wich is faster than Obito's kamui.

Obito would have a terrible time tagging the paths and absorbing them without being hit or outright killed.

Nagato, on the other hand, is definitely above and said bad matchup is null against all the paths powers at the same time. Especially when Nagato can sprout Asura weapons out of nowhere pretty quickly.

Meh, i hold Nagato and Pain above.


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## Alucardemi (Nov 22, 2017)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Obito was not depicted as anything but annoying prior to acquiring the Rinnegan. Hence him being pitted against Danzo's minions opposed to Danzo himself. Hence him being pitted against Konan, the same Konan that was one-shotted by Jiraiya. Against Minato he was thrashed quite easily.




*Spoiler*: __ 









So I guess Minato is just completely off base here?

Reactions: Winner 5


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## Santoryu (Nov 22, 2017)

A case for the Uchiha

Nagato may have more firepower, but I think Obito is the stronger of the two. When Itachi and Nagato were revived as zombies, it was declared that their dojutsu combined would be unstoppable. Madara, and Obito to a lesser extent, fulfill this fantasy. Obito was also Akataski's leader so he has that going for him.

It took the trio of Naruto, Bee, and Itachi to overwhelm Nagato. Even had he not been an Edo I'd still favour the trio. Obito contended with a far superior version of Naruto, Bee, and the masters, both of whom are comparable to Itachi on the power scale. A point of contention would be that the team were incognizant of Kamui's mechanics- but even despite that Naruto acknowledged Obito as being ridiculously strong. Another counterpoint would be that Obito lost against Kakashi. This is true, but against anyone else Obito can freely use his biggest asset: kamui. Kakashi is also ridiculously dangerous in a one vs one battle and arguably the best tactician in the series. This man was a credible threat to the Gedo Mazo and was praised by Uchiha Madara.

Nagato would perhaps deal more damage to opponents at a faster rate due to the collateral damage his attacks produce, but I'd argue his defence is worse than Obito's. And presumably his intelligence and physical stats too.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## BlackHeartedImp (Nov 22, 2017)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> The problem with you Obito fans is that you don't take into account is how Kishi is portraying Obito. Obito is portrayed as a coward and a manipulator.


Portrayed as a coward yet held dominion over the strongest tailed beast, personally confronted the prodigous 4th hokage at 14, openly declared war to the governors of the shinobi world, regularly lays the bottom line for his S-rank pawns, and even went so far as to betray one of the strongest individuals ever in broad daylight. I guess Naruto's a coward too, huh?

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 22, 2017)

Shinobi1jutsu said:


> 1. So... who is above who???


Pain is more powerful, Obito is more dangerous.

Both have great portrayal. Obito was defiantly the boss though.


Shinobi1jutsu said:


> 2. Which of these has more power, and who would win in an ALL-OUT fight???


Depends entirely on knowledge. Manga wise I have to assume Obito knows pretty much all of Nagato's secrets while I kinda doubt the same is true otherwise. I think it will come down to Izanagi but I think Obito would win.


Shinobi1jutsu said:


> 3. Also, what is the likelihood that a healthy Itachi Uchiha could beat either of them?


5%

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Mar55 (Nov 22, 2017)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Lol, what about Torun and Fuu? Didn't Obito lose an arm to them or something?
> 
> 
> And once again he lost an arm, right? He may have challenged Minato, but he was thoroughly trashed.
> ...


I fell like I definitely already addressed all of this, I don't care to repeat the same things. My advice to you is to re-read Minato's meeting with Naruto, re-read Kushina's flashback, re-read Obito saving Kakashi and Rin's body, re-read Obito 's interaction with his subordinates and really take note of him when not being the silly Tobi.

Many outstanding people, who I'm willing to listen to over you, take him very seriously when he stops playing games. You don't like him, that's fine, but his portrayal is monstrous. Pretending it's anything less is disingenuous.

Reactions: Like 1


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## IpHr0z3nI (Nov 22, 2017)

Alucardemi said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Off base or overselling Obito. When the clips rolled the only thing showcased was Minato embarrassing Obito.


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## Mar55 (Nov 22, 2017)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Off base or overselling Obito.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 22, 2017)

Charmed said:


> I agree with @IpHr0z3nI
> Pain is above Obito in power. Nagato could use Both Rinegan at the same time, w/o having Uchiha nor Senju blood, while Obito could not.
> Pain beats Obito. (Sensing , Shared Vision and ST counter Kamui perfectly).
> Itachi is not on the same league as Pain is, as simple as dat.


Well, Obito couldn't use both rinnegan because had a few days to learn using it. Nagato had decades. Nagato, from a child, went from 0%, then as a teen went to like 50%, then as an adult started using the full rinnegan abilites. Obito had to go from no rinnegan to 100% rinnegan(well, one eye but you get the point) in a few days. If Nagato had to do that, he would have the same results.

Obito was laughing at KCM2 Naruto, Bee, Kakashi, AND Gated Guy at the same time


Pain has more firepower, but Obito would win in a fight

Itachi isnt touching either of them. Maybe prove to be dangerous against the weakened pain that Naruto fought? but thats about it


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## Charmed (Nov 22, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Obito couldn't use both rinnegan because had a few days to learn using it.


Madara showed Obito everything about the Rinnegan, Obito even knew how to trigger RinneTensei and other Rinnegan things :''v



Nuttynutdude said:


> Obito had to go from no rinnegan to 100% rinnegan(well, one eye but you get the point) in a few days.


Yeah I get your point <3
But Obito could never handle 2 Rinnegans while baby Nagato never rejected both Rinnegans, and he was a baby! that didn't have senju nor uchiha blood.



Nuttynutdude said:


> Obito was laughing at KCM2 Naruto, Bee, Kakashi, AND Gated Guy at the same time


Obito with 1 Rinnegan with Edo Tensei Jinchuuriki (which are not his but Kabuto's)
and yes Kamui hax.
Oh and GM 




Nuttynutdude said:


> Pain has more firepower, but Obito would win in a fight


nope, sensing, shared vision, and ST + Ashura path are all he needs to counter Kamui.



Nuttynutdude said:


> Itachi isnt touching either of them. Maybe prove to be dangerous against the weakened pain that Naruto fought?


Yes maybe, but not only itachi , other kagetier could too, Pain was a joke compared to 100% Pain :'v Killing intent.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Nov 23, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> I fell like I definitely already addressed all of this, I don't care to repeat the same things. My advice to you is to re-read Minato's meeting with Naruto, re-read Kushina's flashback, re-read Obito saving Kakashi and Rin's body, re-read Obito 's interaction with his subordinates and really take note of him when not being the silly Tobi.


Oh believe me I've read, but when we roll the footage. Obito's accomplishments prior to the Rinnegan are suspect. As suspect as your emphasis on avoiding the fact Obito ran and got the embarrassed by Minato.(You bricking with your shot) You got to back those read the manga post with a you know actual manga.



> Many outstanding people, who I'm willing to listen to over you, take him very seriously when he stops playing games.


When he stops playing game he goes and gets the Rinnegan. Manga facts.





> You don't like him, that's fine, but his portrayal is monstrous. Pretending it's anything less is disingenuous.


I don't like him, A? Yet I support all Uchhia. You obviously not reading so there no sense in talking. You keep talking that Obito talk, and we'll keep rolling the clips of him nearly losing to Konan.


Nuttynutdude said:


> Well, Obito couldn't use both rinnegan because had a few days to learn using it.


(OMG Stop your ......... lying)
The manga clearly states he was to weak to use both Rinnegan.



> Nagato had decades. Nagato, from a child, went from 0%, then as a teen went to like 50%, then as an adult started using the full rinnegan abilites.


Lol.....Nobody knows why Nagato was able to use both. Maybe because he's an Uzamaki. Maybe because he was able to dance to the music. 



> Obito had to go from no rinnegan to 100% rinnegan(well, one eye but you get the point) in a few days. If Nagato had to do that, he would have the same results.


Nope, read the manga. The reason why Obito couldn't had handle both rinnegan is because he was too weak. As clearly told to Sakura. 



> Obito was laughing at KCM2 Naruto, Bee, Kakashi, AND Gated Guy at the same time


Obito was putting that Rinnegan to good use, and keeping those Jinchuuriki close. On his own he didn't accomplish much. Until he got another power up.



> ain has more firepower, but Obito would win in a fight


How? When he barely beat Konan.



> Itachi isnt touching either of them. Maybe prove to be dangerous against the weakened pain that Naruto fought? but thats about it


Obito(Base) Lacks the firepower to pressure Itachi consistently. He'll be able to utilize Susano'o sparingly. While avoiding being Kumai'd via clones.

Itachi is resourceful. More resourceful than Konan. More resourceful than Torun and Fuu. And not that far off from Minato. There's a reason why Itachi was able to keep that ass in check. Read the manga playboy.

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## Mar55 (Nov 23, 2017)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> When he stops playing game he goes and gets the Rinnegan. Manga facts.


Did we miss literally anything Minato says about this man? Itachi talking about this man? The Kage fearing he was actually Madara? Kabuto knowing he needed a bargaining chip against him? Madara's faith in his potential and skills? Seriously, this is becoming just flat denial.


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## Come off it (Nov 23, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Pain is more powerful, Obito is more dangerous.
> 
> Both have great portrayal. Obito was defiantly the boss though.
> 
> ...


Obito can't beat 6 pains at once. He lost an arm against torune an fuu. If he kamui's one pain, then the one he kamui's will just hit him when he phases again. He isn't beating deva path and he can't even use kamui on preta path. Let's be honest Kamui can get absorbed. Also who do you think found out obito's timer for phasing, you can't think it was konan. If obito could've collected Kurama he would've without relying on pain. Obito is really difficult to hit but when he does get hit it does a lot of damage. Every fight we've seen obito in he loses an arm at least. Put him up against pain he loses completely. He lost to minato and he would've died if he had stayed an carried on fighting. Obito that's not allowed to run away after taking damage will lose to pain. Prime nagato would obliterate him up until juubito.

Even rinnegan obito loses (non-jins obviously)He hasn't got enough to do enough damage to all the pains. What''s he going to do kamui all of them then fight them again in his dimension.


Juubito>=Prime Nagato>>Rinnegan Obito with Jinchuuriki's>>Pain>>Rinnegan Obito>Adult Obito


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## The_Conqueror (Nov 23, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Obito can't beat 6 pains at once. He lost an arm against torune an fuu.


obito was just playing with them.  Had he been serious the match was over here 



Come off it said:


> he kamui's one pain, then the one he kamui's will just hit hum when he phases again. He isn't beating deva path and he can't even use kamui on preta path.


Once the paths goes to boxland they can't do anything.  They will loose the Nagatos chakra connection. 



Come off it said:


> Let's be honest Kamui can get absorbed.



The kamui was said to be so fast that all obito needed was to touch his enemy to win. 

Just because you require chakra to cast ninjutsu does not mean that the jutsu itself is a chakra. Kamui a distortion in space time / a portal with suction abilities.


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## Come off it (Nov 23, 2017)

Professor83 said:


> obito was just playing with them.  Had he been serious the match was over here
> 
> 
> Once the paths goes to boxland they can't do anything.  They will loose the Nagatos chakra connection.
> ...


No obito wasn't playing with them. He was actually trying to beat them. They got serious and obito had to get serious, which resulted in obito losing an arm. They actually figured out his ability but they didn't have the means to defeat him. Every fight obito is in he loses an arm. If obito stays to fight pain and not run away he'll get wrecked. Just like when he fought minato. Pain was the one who figured out obito's time limit for kamui. Konan obviously got told this by pain.

How do you know they won't lose connection. Jiraiya had one trapped and he could still be used by Nagato.

Yes kamui is fast but against 12 eyes visually linked he's got no chance. 6 pains stand near each other or evenm two groups of 3 he won't get any of them.

Yes it does mean its chakra.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Nov 23, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Did we miss literally anything Minato says about this man?


That statement was said before the clips rolled. Hence the Uchiha fanbase was relatively surprised when we finally got the flashback.(The the rest of the forums amusement) 



> Itachi talking about this man?


What did Itachi say about Obito? That he was a shell of his former self? Because that's the only thing I can recall him saying off top.


> The Kage fearing he was actually Madara? Kabuto knowing he needed a bargaining chip against him? Madara's faith in his potential and skills? Seriously, this is becoming just flat denial.


Flat denial he says.....But nothing you arbitrated hold weight. The Kage's feared Madara not Obito. That was based on the feats of the real Madara. As far as Kabuto needing bargaining chips. Those chips were incorporated to obtain Sasuke. At no point did Kabuto feared Obito. Obito is the one that ran to nab the Rinnegan once he realized Kabuto was going to war as well. Denial, or just you're incapable of sticking to the facts of the manga. Notice you deviated from actual feats in order to pursue this poor attempt at a hype fest.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Nov 23, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Pain was the one who figured out obito's time limit for kamui. Konan obviously got told this by pain.


 no it stated that Konan figured it out, said nothing about Nagato...

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## Kenzo (Nov 23, 2017)

Rinnegan Obito > Pain > MS Obito


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## Come off it (Nov 23, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> no it stated that Konan figured it out, said nothing about Nagato...


So you don't believe pain knew this. Come on she could just easily lie like itachi did to kabuto. If one of them figured it out i'd go pain. Either way both of them would know about it. I don't think konan would keep it a secret from nagato even if it was her who figured it out.


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## Mar55 (Nov 23, 2017)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> That statement was said before the clips rolled. Hence the Uchiha fanbase was relatively surprised when we finally got the flashback.(The the rest of the forums amusement)


Those clips show Minato admitting Obito is formidable, despite winning the fight.


IpHr0z3nI said:


> What did Itachi say about Obito? That he was a shell of his former self? Because that's the only thing I can recall him saying off top.


You mean along with calling him his former master, needing to surpass that former shell, being trained by that man and striking a deal to keep him from destroying Konoha again. Cherry picking is bad.


IpHr0z3nI said:


> Flat denial he says.....But nothing you arbitrated hold weight.


Let's see.


IpHr0z3nI said:


> The Kage's feared Madara not Obito. That was based on the feats of the real Madara.



Yet the man that fought Madara, in Ōnoki, believed him to be Madara the second he appeared. As well as Minato, which you seem to forget or ignore.


IpHr0z3nI said:


> As far as Kabuto needing bargaining chips. Those chips were incorporated to obtain Sasuke. At no point did Kabuto feared Obito.



I didn't say he feared him, did I? But if Obito was such a coward and weakling, wouldn't SM Kabuto just stomp him? Why even bother negotiating?


IpHr0z3nI said:


> Obito is the one that ran to nab the Rinnegan once he realized Kabuto was going to war as well.



Except he would've done that regardless, Kabuto has nothing to do with that. Seeing as Obito needed the Rinnegan to utilize the Mark and become a Jūbi jin.


IpHr0z3nI said:


> Denial, or just you're incapable of sticking to the facts of the manga. Notice you deviated from actual feats in order to pursue this poor attempt at a hype fest.



That's a funny claim, you outright ignore people directly acknowledging Obito's power. We see this power demonstrated, and you downplay it. How is that sticking to the facts?


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## Mar55 (Nov 23, 2017)

Come off it said:


> So you don't believe pain knew this. Come on she could just easily lie like itachi did to kabuto. If one of them figured it out i'd go pain. Either way both of them would know about it. I don't think konan would keep it a secret from nagato even if it was her who figured it out.


Except only Konan was noted as knowing it, she said specifically studied him for that purpose. Nothing indicates she told Nagato, she'd have no real reason to, since they were originally behind his plans.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Nov 23, 2017)

Come off it said:


> So you don't believe pain knew this.


 I didint say he didint, I simiply said Konan was the one who figured it out


Come off it said:


> Come on she could just easily lie like itachi did to kabuto.


 why would she lie about something like that... further more she was talking to herself to obviously show the reader that shes smart and to throw out Obito's limit for Kamui


Come off it said:


> Either way both of them would know about i


 not denying that, just simiply telling you want the manga told 


Come off it said:


> don't think konan would keep it a secret from nagato even if it was her who figured it out.


 true


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## Come off it (Nov 23, 2017)

Kaan said:


> Rinnegan Obito > Pain > MS Obito


Depends are you talking about with jinchuuriki's or not because isn't that kabuto using edo tensei to help obito so that doesn't count as just Rinnegan obito.


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## Kai (Nov 23, 2017)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Please oh please don't try to utilize portrayal to dictate power hear. Pain/Nagato is the strongest. Obito was, as the real leader, was portrayed to be barely above Konan. Yes she had prep, but Jiraiya was allowed to one shot her. That should showcase to you just how much respect Kishi had for the Obito being showcased her.


I can get down with Pain/Nagato being the strongest but Obito wasn't portrayed as barely above Konan. Obito was portrayed as (a shell of) Madara but knew all and then a few secrets as he was directly taught by Madara. An example of this as the real leader is knowing Nagato's location and ability to confront the latter without having to engage Pain. The Konan fight showed he was "true darkness" in cheating death by having something like Izanagi in his back pocket. Obito only acted like he had no power since he was Madara.



			
				IpHr0z3nI said:
			
		

> Put it this way. Kishi wasn't willing to put Kumailess Obito over Kumailess Kakashi.


Doesn't matter as it was later revealed Obito did that fight with the intention of destroying Madara's seal that held his heart hostage, so no there wouldn't be a need to clarify Obito's intentions to take up a position like that.




			
				IpHr0z3nI said:
			
		

> The problem with you Obito fans is that you don't take into account is how Kishi is portraying Obito. Obito is portrayed as a coward and a manipulator. The only person he was willing to take on himself were Danzo's minions and Konan.


Is that why he was the one who assisted Itachi in slaughtering the Uchiha clan when Sasuke knew Itachi wasn't strong enough to take down the police force alone?

It's okay. You forgot that one 




			
				IpHr0z3nI said:
			
		

> Once again Obito is annoying, he isn't particularly powerful. Which is why he needed the Rinnegan for fire power. And why among the Akatsuki, on the offensive end, he as threatening as Hidan. Think about it.


And once again that's false because Obito was masquerading as Madara who had lost his power at VOTE wherein real fact he hadn't lost his power and was taught Six Paths jutsu by Madara. Those points have been fought and debunked over and over after years of speculation and theories in Library but go ahead stick to those guns.


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## The_Conqueror (Nov 23, 2017)

Come off it said:


> No obito wasn't playing with them. He was actually trying to beat them. They got serious and obito had to get serious, which resulted in obito losing an arm. They actually figured out his ability but they didn't have the means to defeat him. Every fight obito is in he loses an arm. If obito stays to fight pain and not run away he'll get wrecked. Just like when he fought minato. Pain was the one who figured out obito's time limit for kamui. Konan obviously got told this by pain.
> 
> How do you know they won't lose connection. Jiraiya had one trapped and he could still be used by Nagato.
> 
> ...


Lol I did show you the scan when obito had them both of them open and didnot attack didnot I? 
They didnot do a jackass shit to obito.  They didnot tag him.  Infact Obito was the one who chose to loose them arm,  they didnot force that. 

To still continously attack for 5 min without prep is by noraml ninja standards  is impossible. And even it were possible they need location,  otherwise obito would simply pass underground making every thing null and void. 

Even if pain could still work in another dimension he can send them to different places like he did to Sasuke Karin/foo torune /place where he hides his weapons

Shared vision doesnot allow them to know if obito is solid or phasing.  So paths attacking obito on a whim could destroy the paths themselves. Pain themselves cannot be careless with attacks,  can they?


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 24, 2017)

Charmed said:


> nope, sensing, shared vision, and ST + Ashura path are all he needs to counter Kamui.


Countering Kamui.... i'm not sure how the ashura path is going to do that. Obito was laughing at a stronger Naruto than the naruto that one shot the ashura path. 

Shinra tensei? Ok. so you knock him back, he's faster than the 4th raikage by scaling, so he comes back, kills all the other paths, and then beats the deva down.


Come off it said:


> Obito can't beat 6 pains at once. He lost an arm against torune an fuu. If he kamui's one pain, then the one he kamui's will just hit him when he phases again. He isn't beating deva path and he can't even use kamui on preta path. Let's be honest Kamui can get absorbed. Also who do you think found out obito's timer for phasing, you can't think it was konan. If obito could've collected Kurama he would've without relying on pain. Obito is really difficult to hit but when he does get hit it does a lot of damage. Every fight we've seen obito in he loses an arm at least. Put him up against pain he loses completely. He lost to minato and he would've died if he had stayed an carried on fighting. Obito that's not allowed to run away after taking damage will lose to pain. Prime nagato would obliterate him up until juubito.
> 
> Even rinnegan obito loses (non-jins obviously)He hasn't got enough to do enough damage to all the pains. What''s he going to do kamui all of them then fight them again in his dimension.
> 
> ...


Did you juts suggest Juubito is comparable to Nagato? What is wrong with you? By that you are also saying a combo of a fatigued KCM1 Naruto, Bee, and Itachi would stomp sage Hashirama.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 24, 2017)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> How? When he barely beat Konan.


You seem to only look at the surface, refusing to look beyond. If someone tells you they're going to the bathroom then runs out the restaurant. you assume they're going to the bathroom and you'll wait for them


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## IpHr0z3nI (Nov 24, 2017)

Kai said:


> I can get down with Pain/Nagato being the strongest but Obito wasn't portrayed as barely above Konan. Obito was portrayed as (a shell of) Madara but knew all and then a few secrets as he was directly taught by Madara.


Yeah a shell of Madara that could barely handle Konan. Regardless of what you say the clips don't lie. We've seen Konan get dismissed once before. You mean to tell me that if Kishi willed it to be so, he couldn't have Obito, shell of Madara or not, wipe the floor with Konan. But it's not just Konan. I don't appreciate the way Kishi opted to portray him against Minato. It was a complete contradiction, and had the Uchiha fanbase looking bad for weeks. And with no real Madara in sight, the Uchiha fanbase had to hold that L.



> An example of this as the real leader is knowing Nagato's location and ability to confront the latter without having to engage Pain.


But Nagato is more powerful than Pain. He was also portrayed to be more powerful than Obito by proxy. Pain made short work of two Jinchuuriki Obito went to retrieve the Rinnegan to fight.



> The Konan fight showed he was "true darkness" in cheating death by having something like Izanagi in his back pocket. Obito only acted like he had no power since he was Madara.


He didn't act anything. He told the Kage's he was a shadow of his former self. Hence him sending Sasuke to do what the real Madara proved to be capable of doing.



> Doesn't matter as it was later revealed Obito did that fight with the intention of destroying Madara's seal that held his heart hostage, so no there wouldn't be a need to clarify Obito's intentions to take up a position like that.


So what you're telling me is that he intended to lose that fight. Got you. I'll pretend that Kakashi knew that hence is why he went all out with a chidori to the chest, right? Who are you people trying to fool. I read this manga front to back, and I don't recall Kishi's pen ever intentionally having Obito throw the fight just so he can be released from Madara's control.



> Is that why he was the one who assisted Itachi in slaughtering the Uchiha clan when Sasuke knew Itachi wasn't strong enough to take down the police force alone?


Hold on, hold on. Did the Uchiha even fight back? Stop reaching for the stars people. We've only seen brief scenes in regards to the massacre, and that little time was spent showcasing Itachi's parents willingly submitting to their fate. Even the novels doesn't solve this solution, as we only get a brief glimpse of Itachi killing his potential love interest. There is any real footage of the massacre, and compared to a MS wielding Uchiha the nameless, featless, Uchiha clan are a none factor. You're proving my point. Obito is an opportunist. He's aware of limits thus is why he cherry picks who he's willing to take on, and who he's willing to leave up more capable shinobi.



> It's okay. You forgot that one


Did I forget it or are you simply reaching?




> And once again that's false because Obito was masquerading as Madara who had lost his power at VOTE wherein real fact he hadn't lost his power and was taught Six Paths jutsu by Madara.


Madara didn't teach him shit. Or at least Obito never showed it. For the few scenes they were showcased together they demonstrated two vastly different move sets. Even the way they utilize the Rinnegan was totally different. Obito wasn't even strong enough to wield both Rinnegans.



> Those points have been fought and debunked over and over after years of speculation and theories in Library but go ahead stick to those guns.


Years of speculation was met with a rasengan via the fourth Hokage, and a near death experience against one of the weaker members of the Akatsuki.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## ARGUS (Nov 24, 2017)

1. Pein is stronger than Obito overall 
2. Pein would beat Obito more likely in a 1v1 
3. Itachi has a much better chance of beating Obito than Pein, especially when he has no counter to CT or CST at all


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## Arles Celes (Nov 24, 2017)

Pain got more raw power(destroyed a whole village in one shot) but Obito got more haxxx perhaps as Kamui is incredibly broken. Though Nagato himself if mobile and with all his path powers on his own likely can outhaxx even Kamui.


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## Come off it (Nov 24, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Countering Kamui.... i'm not sure how the ashura path is going to do that. Obito was laughing at a stronger Naruto than the naruto that one shot the ashura path.
> 
> Shinra tensei? Ok. so you knock him back, he's faster than the 4th raikage by scaling, so he comes back, kills all the other paths, and then beats the deva down.
> 
> Did you juts suggest Juubito is comparable to Nagato? What is wrong with you? By that you are also saying a combo of a fatigued KCM1 Naruto, Bee, and Itachi would stomp sage Hashirama.



Yes i did say juubito is comparable to Nagato, because he is. In a 1v1 nagato can absorb anything juubito throws at him. He can also fly (if pain can so can nagato) so he can't be cornered i.e he can get out of obito's barrier via flying or maybe preta path. Juubito has way more power but the rinnegan nullifies that via preta path unless you use mokuton techniques. TSO become useless in attacking nagato, not defending obviously. Obito is in Juubi chakra mode or JCM1 which as shown by killer bee and naruto in their forms, it will get absorbed by preta path on full contact therefore nullifying the juubi's power when hitting nagato. It will literally be a stale mate as juubito won't be able to kill Nagato and nagato won't be able to kill juubito unless nagato get SPS from juubito then Nagato wins. Literally as simple as that.

NO i'm not saying they are anywhere near SM Hashirama, one because VOTE Hashirama is stronger than Juubito and two they won by circumstance not power. The only reason why they defeated Nagato was because itachi was an edo tensei as the rules of edo tensei made by Kabuto, is that an edo tensei responds to an enemies jutsu regardless if the want to or not. Therefore itachi who is an edo tensei created by Kabuto is not classed as an enemy meaning Nagato can't respond to itachi's attacks at all. Whereas itachi who re-wrote his edo tensei's rules breaks this. Did you not think it was weird how nagato responds to bee and naruto and never responds to itachi, not even once. So what does Kabuto have Nagato do, CT...why because he's trying to catch itachi in the same blast as Naruto and Bee as he knows he itachi is the only one who can hurt him. If itachi was alive or Kabuto changed Nagato's edo rules then it would've been game over in under 2 minutes for all 3. See chapter 547 page 9 for confirmation on this rule. Also i can't remember the chapter but i'm sure it happened when the 4 kage got revived they wanted to fight each other but the couldn't do anything but as soon as gaara and ohnoki attack they respond immediately. So Edo's that want to attack each other can't as shown with the 4 kage and they attack only living things/enemies. Meaning if they can't attack each other they can't be classed as enemies resulting in not being able to defend against each other either since they only respond to enemies techniques. That's why they beat nagato not because of power but because of circumstance. Kabuto doesn't want his edo's to fight each other so he has to put rules in place.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 25, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Yes i did say juubito is comparable to Nagato, because he is. In a 1v1 nagato can absorb anything juubito throws at him. He can also fly (if pain can so can nagato) so he can't be cornered i.e he can get out of obito's barrier via flying or maybe preta path. Juubito has way more power but the rinnegan nullifies that via preta path unless you use mokuton techniques. TSO become useless in attacking nagato, not defending obviously. Obito is in Juubi chakra mode or JCM1 which as shown by killer bee and naruto in their forms, it will get absorbed by preta path on full contact therefore nullifying the juubi's power when hitting nagato. It will literally be a stale mate as juubito won't be able to kill Nagato and nagato won't be able to kill juubito unless nagato get SPS from juubito then Nagato wins. Literally as simple as that.
> 
> NO i'm not saying they are anywhere near SM Hashirama, one because VOTE Hashirama is stronger than Juubito and two they won by circumstance not power. The only reason why they defeated Nagato was because itachi was an edo tensei as the rules of edo tensei made by Kabuto, is that an edo tensei responds to an enemies jutsu regardless if the want to or not. Therefore itachi who is an edo tensei created by Kabuto is not classed as an enemy meaning Nagato can't respond to itachi's attacks at all. Whereas itachi who re-wrote his edo tensei's rules breaks this. Did you not think it was weird how nagato responds to bee and naruto and never responds to itachi, not even once. So what does Kabuto have Nagato do, CT...why because he's trying to catch itachi in the same blast as Naruto and Bee as he knows he itachi is the only one who can hurt him. If itachi was alive or Kabuto changed Nagato's edo rules then it would've been game over in under 2 minutes for all 3. See chapter 547 page 9 for confirmation on this rule. Also i can't remember the chapter but i'm sure it happened when the 4 kage got revived they wanted to fight each other but the couldn't do anything but as soon as gaara and ohnoki attack they respond immediately. So Edo's that want to attack each other can't as shown with the 4 kage and they attack only living things/enemies. Meaning if they can't attack each other they can't be classed as enemies resulting in not being able to defend against each other either since they only respond to enemies techniques. That's why they beat nagato not because of power but because of circumstance. Kabuto doesn't want his edo's to fight each other so he has to put rules in place.


mmmmm. 1. Hashirama flat out said Juubito is stronger than him. So that already is something.
2. Juubito uses senjutsu. Nagato isn't absorbing anything
3. Juubito also one shot blitzed tobirama
4. Obito has access to all the rinnegan abilities already
5. Obito was laughing at a team that was similar in strength to the one that dicked down Nagato
6. Truth seeking orbs. They are faster than Guy, so they are sure as hell faster than Nagato. He can do literally nothing to them, and they will one shot him.
7. Nagato, lets wank him and say he's stronger than the Kyuubi. So? the Juubi was stronger than the Kyuubi, and Juubito is stronger than the Juubi for what i hope are obvious reasons.

The sheer suggestion that Nagato>= Juubito<Hashirama... jesus.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 25, 2017)

Arles Celes said:


> Pain got more raw power(destroyed a whole village in one shot) but Obito got more haxxx perhaps as Kamui is incredibly broken. Though Nagato himself if mobile and with all his path powers on his own likely can outhaxx even Kamui.


Nothing is outhaxing Kamui. Kamui was enough to take on Kaguya. Why they gave this to a character is beyond me.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Come off it (Nov 25, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> mmmmm. 1. Hashirama flat out said Juubito is stronger than him. So that already is something.
> 2. Juubito uses senjutsu. Nagato isn't absorbing anything
> 3. Juubito also one shot blitzed tobirama
> 4. Obito has access to all the rinnegan abilities already
> ...


So everything i said about why Nagato got beaten has gone straight over your head or you haven't read it at all. Nagato can absorb senjutsu attacks. His preta path pain only turned into a frog because naruto went overboard in gathering senjutsu chakra then released it all at once. So yeah he is absorbing it. Obito would know this so he'd be careful to attack carelessly.

One tobirama is an edo tensei way below prime level. Secondly tobirama never got hit by obito after this attack so tobirama as an edo had already adapted to Juubito's speed. Obito has never shown any of these abilities with the one rinnegan he possess, Madara never showcased any of these abilities with one rinnegan either which suggests that you need DR to activate this abilities with Madara's Rinnegan. I've already explained why nagato got beat so please read what i said. I never even said nagato was faster than juubito at any time. But he can release preta path before juubito can hit him for sure. 1vs1 against the kyuubi. Nagato wins, NO KURAMA HAS MORE POWER JUST LIKE JUUBITO BUT THE RINNEGAN IS SO OP THAT THE GAP IS NULLIFIED. No juubito cannot use rinnegan abilities otherwise he would have, why would he not???

Hashirama says this because he's an edo tensei. Hashirama as an edo tensei can only create a SMWG at his best. Madara went full power so hashi went full power, which as an edo (which is no where near prime level) he could only create SMWG which in comparison to SMSS is at best 20% strength. If he could create SS why wouldn't he? Furthermore SMWG is not enough to beat juubito, its stronger than Naruto and sasuke's combination but juubito was already weakened when they were fighting him due to the chakra he used prior. Also in Naruto you have to look at it yourself and not read it as "he said he's stronger so it must be true". Pain said jiraiya would've beaten him which is obviously total bullshit. Hashi says this for two reason's 1. He's an edo so yeah juubito is stronger than edo hashirama. 2. To hype up juubito. its a simple as that. It goes as follows "OMG Hashirama said juubito is stronger than him, Hashirama is the strongest so than means juubito is above hashirama". Then gets beaten by Naruto and sasuke after being weakened. The TSO got OPed by one attack from Naruto and sasuke (before SoSP), they are no where near hashirama's level, not even close with one attack, not even close at all. At best BSM Naruto and EMS CM Sasuke v3 Susano can hit as hard as a PS together, high balling them. Even if you said it was stronger it wouldn't be by much. Hashirama's SS tanked PS swords with 9 tailed BB amped to be as strong so they can combine attacks. Meaning each BB+PSS = 2 PS swords in strength. Madara fired 13 of these. That's 26 PS swords in equivalence and that only took out 500 hands at best; this means 52 PS Swords is equivalent strength of 1000 hands not including SMWG and SMWB. That's 52x the strength of what Naruto and Sasuke used to OP obito, that's just the hands. I'm not saying juubito can't beat hashirama and i'm not saying its a stomp. But hashirama will win the majority of times.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 25, 2017)

Come off it said:


> So everything i said about why Nagato got beaten has gone straight over your head or you haven't read it at all. Nagato can absorb senjutsu attacks. His preta path pain only turned into a frog because naruto went overboard in gathering senjutsu chakra then released it all at once. So yeah he is absorbing it. Obito would know this so he'd be careful to attack carelessly.
> 
> One tobirama is an edo tensei way below prime level. Secondly tobirama never got hit by obito after this attack so tobirama as an edo had already adapted to Juubito's speed. Obito has never shown any of these abilities with the one rinnegan he possess, Madara never showcased any of these abilities with one rinnegan either which suggests that you need DR to activate this abilities with Madara's Rinnegan. I've already explained why nagato got beat so please read what i said. I never even said nagato was faster than juubito at any time. But he can release preta path before juubito can hit him for sure. 1vs1 against the kyuubi. Nagato wins, NO KURAMA HAS MORE POWER JUST LIKE JUUBITO BUT THE RINNEGAN IS SO OP THAT THE GAP IS NULLIFIED. No juubito cannot use rinnegan abilities otherwise he would have, why would he not???
> 
> Hashirama says this because he's an edo tensei. Hashirama as an edo tensei can only create a SMWG at his best. Madara went full power so hashi went full power, which as an edo (which is no where near prime level) he could only create SMWG which in comparison to SMSS is at best 20% strength. If he could create SS why wouldn't he? Furthermore SMWG is not enough to beat juubito, its stronger than Naruto and sasuke's combination but juubito was already weakened when they were fighting him due to the chakra he used prior. Also in Naruto you have to look at it yourself and not read it as "he said he's stronger so it must be true". Pain said jiraiya would've beaten him which is obviously total bullshit. Hashi says this for two reason's 1. He's an edo so yeah juubito is stronger than edo hashirama. 2. To hype up juubito. its a simple as that. It goes as follows "OMG Hashirama said juubito is stronger than him, Hashirama is the strongest so than means juubito is above hashirama". Then gets beaten by Naruto and sasuke after being weakened. The TSO got OPed by one attack from Naruto and sasuke (before SoSP), they are no where near hashirama's level, not even close with one attack, not even close at all. At best BSM Naruto and EMS CM Sasuke v3 Susano can hit as hard as a PS together, high balling them. Even if you said it was stronger it wouldn't be by much. Hashirama's SS tanked PS swords with 9 tailed BB amped to be as strong so they can combine attacks. Meaning each BB+PSS = 2 PS swords in strength. Madara fired 13 of these. That's 26 PS swords in equivalence and that only took out 500 hands at best; this means 52 PS Swords is equivalent strength of 1000 hands not including SMWG and SMWB. That's 52x the strength of what Naruto and Sasuke used to OP obito, that's just the hands. I'm not saying juubito can't beat hashirama and i'm not saying its a stomp. But hashirama will win the majority of times.


Hashirama was said to be near his full strength.. and he flat out said Juubito is stronger than him. there is no special conditions, and there is no retconned hype. this is late shippuden and everything was flat out stated by the senju brothers.

Naruto didn't accumulate too much senjutsu chakra, otherwise he'd be a frog. the preta path absorbing ANY sage chakra turns them to stone.

Guy flat out said he could use them, but had no reason to. Why is the argument "he hasn't used it so he can't"? otherwise we can say Hiruzen cannot use all the jutsu he said he can because he hasn't done it on screen. Hashirama only fought madara a few times because only a few were on screen.


And about the preta path, what does it do exactly? the juubi is pure nature energy.  And you still have not addressed the problem of Nagato has literally nothing he can do against the truth seeking orbs.


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## Come off it (Nov 25, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Hashirama was said to be near his full strength.. and he flat out said Juubito is stronger than him. there is no special conditions, and there is no retconned hype. this is late shippuden and everything was flat out stated by the senju brothers.
> 
> Naruto didn't accumulate too much senjutsu chakra, otherwise he'd be a frog. the preta path absorbing ANY sage chakra turns them to stone.
> 
> ...



No hashirama's edo was near full strength at the point of his death age, which is around 55-60 via him knowing tsunade, same with tobirama. Chiyo was still old even though she stated she was stronger when she was younger, Nagato was also old, he had his white hair which is only seen just before he dies. Hiruzen was also old which further backs this. Even though when nagato absorbed bees chakra he went back to his prime or near it. Meaning his edo tensei was not prime to begin with. Madara was the only Edo who didn't suffer from this which is why Kabuto specifically states his edo is unique. Speaking on madara his edo was supposed to be fixed up beyond his prime and he was stronger revived. Hashirama as an edo is weaker than Juubito. Prime Hashi is not. Madara as an edo used PS, why would hashi not use SS and just obliterate him, but use something of similar power. That doesn't make sense. Hashirama used his full edo power which at it peak was SMWG since hashi actually just beat edo madara whereas if he was worried he was going to lose he would've just used SS and won. That's like saying hashi is uses SMWG and then madara just uses normal susano, not PS as this would be the difference in power between SMWG to SMSS. That wouldn't make sense to do that. Just imagine SMWG vs SMSS, that's the difference in strength edo hashi has to prime alive Hashi. SMWG is nowhere near SMSS in terms of strength. It doesn't need to be retconned because edo hashi isn't stronger than juubito. The reason juubito will not win is because hashi prime with SMWG will be stronger than Naruto and Sasuke's combo vs Juubito in which hashi won't let Juubito use quadra-juubidama. Hashi has no counter for this. SMSS is an insta win if obito can't get the quadr-juubidama's up as he has no other counter. Tobirama also suffers the same as an edo and hiruzen even more due to revived age.

No it doesn't turn them to stone, naruto absorbed enough to enter SM and then released it all at the same time in which preta path absorbed and turned to stone.

Yes but obito had the one rinnegan for so long and showed zero abilities. Madara with one rinnegan also showed no feats whereas with two he was spamming rinnegan abilities especially Preta path.

Yes that's why i said it was a draw because truth seeking absorbs can be absorbed since they are chakra however nagato cannot hurt obito through them. They cancel each other out.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 25, 2017)

Come off it said:


> No hashirama's edo was near full strength at the point of his death age, which is around 55-60 via him knowing tsunade, same with tobirama. Chiyo was still old even though she stated she was stronger when she was younger, Nagato was also old, he had his white hair which is only seen just before he dies. Hiruzen was also old which further backs this. Even though when nagato absorbed bees chakra he went back to his prime or near it. Meaning his edo tensei was not prime to begin with. Madara was the only Edo who didn't suffer from this which is why Kabuto specifically states his edo is unique. Speaking on madara his edo was supposed to be fixed up beyond his prime and he was stronger revived. Hashirama as an edo is weaker than Juubito. Prime Hashi is not. Madara as an edo used PS, why would hashi not use SS and just obliterate him, but use something of similar power. That doesn't make sense. Hashirama used his full edo power which at it peak was SMWG since hashi actually just beat edo madara whereas if he was worried he was going to lose he would've just used SS and won. That's like saying hashi is uses SMWG and then madara just uses normal susano, not PS as this would be the difference in power between SMWG to SMSS. That wouldn't make sense to do that. Just imagine SMWG vs SMSS, that's the difference in strength edo hashi has to prime alive Hashi. SMWG is nowhere near SMSS in terms of strength. It doesn't need to be retconned because edo hashi isn't stronger than juubito. The reason juubito will not win is because hashi prime with SMWG will be stronger than Naruto and Sasuke's combo vs Juubito in which hashi won't let Juubito use quadra-juubidama. Hashi has no counter for this. SMSS is an insta win if obito can't get the quadr-juubidama's up as he has no other counter. Tobirama also suffers the same as an edo and hiruzen even more due to revived age.
> 
> No it doesn't turn them to stone, naruto absorbed enough to enter SM and then released it all at the same time in which preta path absorbed and turned to stone.
> 
> ...


ok lets go.

1. Tobirama said himself he was revived close to his original strength. That never implied in any way shape or forme that it was an extremely old version of himself. That is complete and utter headcannon
2. Yes, it does. That was the entire reason Naruto beat the preta path. They tried absorbing senjutsu chakra, and then turned to stone cuz it couldn't control it.
3. So? By that, you're also saying Hagaromo cannot use the rinnegan/sharingan because he never showed it. And Neji/Hinata are the only ones that can use the Byakugan because they were the only ones shown using it. The argument "they didnt so they cant" is a logical fallicy
4. No, they cannot be absorbed. They are yin-yang release. Even if Nagato tried to absorb them, he would get blown tf up by them. Nagato is not doing shit against Juubito in any way shape or forme. His is better than Nagato in literally every category except maybe rinnegan experience.


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## Come off it (Nov 26, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> ok lets go.
> 
> 1. Tobirama said himself he was revived close to his original strength. That never implied in any way shape or forme that it was an extremely old version of himself. That is complete and utter headcannon
> 2. Yes, it does. That was the entire reason Naruto beat the preta path. They tried absorbing senjutsu chakra, and then turned to stone cuz it couldn't control it.
> ...



No tobirama says power compared to last time. Nagato who is an edo like tobirama, he absorbed bee's v2 form and went near prime. Meaning he wasn't near it at all prior since he was his old self. He looked old against naruto even before he revived everyone (Pain assult on konoha) but when he absorbed bee's chakra he looked young. Clearly implying his edo tensei has now been powered up in comparison to before. Every other edo suffers from this aside fro Madara. So they are revived old but have prime level power, what...that doesn't make sense? They are revived in their current power level at death. Madara who kabuto clearly outlines that you have been powered up beyond your prime since his edo is unique. Otherwise madara should've been revived old like every other edo which is revived at their time of death. Think about it, why would Hashirama use SMWG to fight madara when he has a SMSS to completely obliterate him? The reason is because he can't due to his low power.

No because we see obito fight with rinnegan for like 120+ chapters and he never uses one ability, Another fact is when naruto attacked him with his rasengan and obito didn't absorb it, then obito got hit by sasuke and naruto's combination of attacks and he didn't absorb them either. Madara got hit by sasuke's sword that cut him in half and he didn't absorb that even though he seen sasuke coming. Madara with one rinnegan also had naruto attack him with a lava rasenshuricken and he didn't absorb it instead of taking damage. Preta path is the most OP abiity the rinnegan gives you. Anyone with DR spams the shit out of Preta path. Momo, Madara, Nagato. Obito doesn't show this when he should've. 

Why can't yin-yang release be absorbed, they are chakra so yes they can. No absorption cancels the explosion man. Yes he is better than nagato in every category. But preta path is that op that nagato who is an edo took v2 bee's attack head on an received zero damage. Edo Madara got kicked in half by lee, Nagato received zero damage from v2 bee.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 26, 2017)

Shinobi1jutsu said:


> Obito Uchiha vs. Pain (Nagato Uzumaki)
> 
> It seems that these two are generally considered the strongest Akatsuki members. (by most people)
> 
> ...



Obito v Pain Rikudou

1. Obito because he can make his way towards Nagato. It means he has to take Nagato, but he bypasses Pain. 

2. More power, Pain. In an all out battle, Obito if he literally goes to Nagato ending the battle with Pain immediately.
If teleporting to Nagato isn't an option, then it is harder considering the nature of their abilities. I'd favour Obito using Izanagi though.

3. None. Healthy Itachi can never take Obito or Pain. 

Obito v Nagato is another discussion altogether.

And yes, these guys were the top Akatsuki members. MS Sasuke wasn't even close to them. Though, you'd expect Obito and Nagato-Pain to be the strongest members considering how much Madara invested in them.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 26, 2017)

Come off it said:


> No tobirama says power compared to last time. Nagato who is an edo like tobirama, he absorbed bee's v2 form and went near prime. Meaning he wasn't near it at all prior since he was his old self. He looked old against naruto even before he revived everyone (Pain assult on konoha) but when he absorbed bee's chakra he looked young. Clearly implying his edo tensei has now been powered up in comparison to before. Every other edo suffers from this aside fro Madara. So they are revived old but have prime level power, what...that doesn't make sense? They are revived in their current power level at death. Madara who kabuto clearly outlines that you have been powered up beyond your prime since his edo is unique. Otherwise madara should've been revived old like every other edo which is revived at their time of death. Think about it, why would Hashirama use SMWG to fight madara when he has a SMSS to completely obliterate him? The reason is because he can't due to his low power.
> 
> No because we see obito fight with rinnegan for like 120+ chapters and he never uses one ability, Another fact is when naruto attacked him with his rasengan and obito didn't absorb it, then obito got hit by sasuke and naruto's combination of attacks and he didn't absorb them either. Madara got hit by sasuke's sword that cut him in half and he didn't absorb that even though he seen sasuke coming. Madara with one rinnegan also had naruto attack him with a lava rasenshuricken and he didn't absorb it instead of taking damage. Preta path is the most OP abiity the rinnegan gives you. Anyone with DR spams the shit out of Preta path. Momo, Madara, Nagato. Obito doesn't show this when he should've.
> 
> Why can't yin-yang release be absorbed, they are chakra so yes they can. No absorption cancels the explosion man. Yes he is better than nagato in every category. But preta path is that op that nagato who is an edo took v2 bee's attack head on an received zero damage. Edo Madara got kicked in half by lee, Nagato received zero damage from v2 bee.


1. no, he really really didn't. You obviously have not read/or watched the manga in a really really long time. he specifically says "we have been revived close to our original power"
2. He can. And he does. He uses the outer path. He is fully capable of using the abilities granted by the rinnegan. Thinking otherwise is just an appeal to ignorance. Look it up
3. So by what you said, literally nobody in the series can beat Nagato, because 1. he is the only one that can use the rinnegan and 2. the preta path absorbs everything omnidirectionally and infinitely? 


Yeah i'm done here. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about and have so many logical fallacies that this isn't more of an argument than disproving complete headcanon.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Nov 26, 2017)

Shinobi1jutsu said:


> Obito Uchiha vs. Pain (Nagato Uzumaki)
> 
> It seems that these two are generally considered the strongest Akatsuki members. (by most people)
> 
> ...


Obito 


Shinobi1jutsu said:


> Obito Uchiha vs. Pain (Nagato Uzumaki)
> 
> It seems that these two are generally considered the strongest Akatsuki members. (by most people)
> 
> ...


Obito would whip nagato / pain as for that matter . Pain has zero defense against kamui and has zero defense against mokuton which could tank a Susanoo Arrow , something kabuto considered a mortal threat . Tobi has the best killing power wood technique , which only he and ten tails can use , which allows him to sprout branches from his body at will and near him and from the ground , something which pain no matter how wont avoid given its speed . Obito's genjutsu would probably oneshot . Obitos taijutsu is far far better and would blitz the paths probably . He blocked a kubikiribocho with one arm , that explains durability . He was fast enough to catch and react to Minato , who only escaped with space time . There's zero chance of pain winning and he is too much hyped .

Chances of itachi beating pain are much higher than him beating obito . Pain simply cannot track itachi who was faster than 5th gate lee as kakashi couldnt see him despite easily seeing 5th gate lee . Itachi's physical strength is too much , he crushed a wall without touching it , that explains everything . Iam not counting totsuka blade and yata mirror which would lead to 100% itachis victory in both cases . 
Itachi has better non eye contact genjutsu than obito according to Shukaku and Ao so itachi wins ultimately , if obito tries using tailed beast manipulation genjutsu .


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## Come off it (Nov 26, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> 1. no, he really really didn't. You obviously have not read/or watched the manga in a really really long time. he specifically says "we have been revived close to our original power"
> 2. He can. And he does. He uses the outer path. He is fully capable of using the abilities granted by the rinnegan. Thinking otherwise is just an appeal to ignorance. Look it up
> 3. So by what you said, literally nobody in the series can beat Nagato, because 1. he is the only one that can use the rinnegan and 2. the preta path absorbs everything omnidirectionally and infinitely?
> 
> ...



No he says "we're brought back with almost our full power" however due to Hiruzen who is standing right next to them being old you have to interpret this as full power of the age they died. Unless you believe a 70 year old Hiruzen is stronger than a 25-30 year old Hiruzen? Chiyo also has this problem, Nagato has this problem. Therefore Hashirama and Tobirama have this problem. If all of these characters have this problem then how can you just disregard that and not respond with an answer?

How is it ignorance? Obito never used any of these abilities when he should've, neither did Madara when he had one rinnegan. Madara's Dojutsu ability went up by 4x or 5x when he put his second rinnegan in. You have to assume obito can't use these abilities due to him having one rinnegan and not 2. Anyone with DR spams Preta path and Rinnegan Dojutsu abilities because they are that good.

Yes Rinnegan users are that powerful man. Look at momoshiki, all he had was preta path to start with. He started shitting on everyone. Look at Nagato. Edo Nagato prime beat Killer Bee and Naruto in under 30 seconds. They were done. No it absorbs anything around Nagato. There are ways around Preta path obviously but it really is that OP. the rinnegan is broken, especially when you have two or more. However uses that use Bijuu power/chakra cloaks can also have their power nullified as shown with Killer Bee.


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## Come off it (Nov 26, 2017)

Sage light said:


> Obito
> 
> Obito would whip nagato / pain as for that matter . Pain has zero defense against kamui and has zero defense against mokuton which could tank a Susanoo Arrow , something kabuto considered a mortal threat . Tobi has the best killing power wood technique , which only he and ten tails can use , which allows him to sprout branches from his body at will and near him and from the ground , something which pain no matter how wont avoid given its speed . Obito's genjutsu would probably oneshot . Obitos taijutsu is far far better and would blitz the paths probably . He blocked a kubikiribocho with one arm , that explains durability . He was fast enough to catch and react to Minato , who only escaped with space time . There's zero chance of pain winning and he is too much hyped .
> 
> ...



Zero defense against Kamui, You mean six bodies with visual link. Obito was struggling to beat Torune and Fuu, taking on six pains at once come on. Obito's mokuton is terrible and would get blitzed by deva path. Preta path should beable to nullify kamui in CQC since its a chakra based technique. 

Mokuton at obito's level isn't doing shit against Pain let alone Nagato. Pain won't be able to react to this even though deva path can react to six tailed naruto? Genjutsu on a rinnegan user via dojutsu? Itachi states that MS can block genjutsu from another MS, Rinnegan is two stages higher than MS. No chance that is happening. No obito's taijutsu isn't beating 12 eyes visually linked. He hass to materialise to touch them, Pain will make contact before he does that. SM naruto was only able to hit pain In CQC because of SM. Obito lacks this so pain can see every attack clearly.

Obito is not blitzing pain with speed. 

No itachi beating pain is zero percent and same with Itachi beating Obito. Any Obito above the age of 14 whips itachi, The only obito that will struggle is 14 yr old obito without Kurama. Pain stomps Itachi, Itachi has zero feats to combat CT, and pretty much all of Pains abilities in combinations with one another. Itachi doesn't have the chakra and continuation of power to beat pain. Itachi also has a time limit to work from, pain does not.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Nov 27, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Zero defense against Kamui, You mean six bodies with visual link. Obito was struggling to beat Torune and Fuu, taking on six pains at once come on. Obito's mokuton is terrible and would get blitzed by deva path. Preta path should beable to nullify kamui in CQC since its a chakra based technique.
> 
> Mokuton at obito's level isn't doing shit against Pain let alone Nagato. Pain won't be able to react to this even though deva path can react to six tailed naruto? Genjutsu on a rinnegan user via dojutsu? Itachi states that MS can block genjutsu from another MS, Rinnegan is two stages higher than MS. No chance that is happening. No obito's taijutsu isn't beating 12 eyes visually linked. He hass to materialise to touch them, Pain will make contact before he does that. SM naruto was only able to hit pain In CQC because of SM. Obito lacks this so pain can see every attack clearly.
> 
> ...


Obito has mastered wood release hence why he could use izanagi more efficiently than obito . Itachi never told MS genjutsu can be blocked by MS . Rinnegan evolved from sharingan doesnt mean it has genjutsu , thats a pitiful excuse his pain fans make to help him fight uchihas . By that evolution logic , byakugan can cast genjutsu since sharingan was stated to be evolved from the byakugan . Kamui cannot be absorbed , chakra is the energy required for using ninjutsu , not necessarily transform into ninjutsu . It rips open space with mental concentration . Shared link is useless when obito can appear from nowhere and kill them and chakra disrupt them with gedo blades . Or use wood release to cover the entire surroundings . Wood release depends on the surrounding alteration not on pinpoint attacks . Wood release cannot be absorbed . Preta path only absorbs ninjutsu , not lifeforce induced substances like wood release . 


Itachi defeats pain negative diff . Pain has zero resistance against genjutsu and itachis speed , which less than 1% of it was faster than 5th gate lee according to viz .


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## Come off it (Nov 27, 2017)

Sage light said:


> Obito has mastered wood release hence why he could use izanagi more efficiently than obito . Itachi never told MS genjutsu can be blocked by MS . Rinnegan evolved from sharingan doesnt mean it has genjutsu , thats a pitiful excuse his pain fans make to help him fight uchihas . By that evolution logic , byakugan can cast genjutsu since sharingan was stated to be evolved from the byakugan . Kamui cannot be absorbed , chakra is the energy required for using ninjutsu , not necessarily transform into ninjutsu . It rips open space with mental concentration . Shared link is useless when obito can appear from nowhere and kill them and chakra disrupt them with gedo blades . Or use wood release to cover the entire surroundings . Wood release depends on the surrounding alteration not on pinpoint attacks . Wood release cannot be absorbed . Preta path only absorbs ninjutsu , not lifeforce induced substances like wood release .
> 
> 
> Itachi defeats pain negative diff . Pain has zero resistance against genjutsu and itachis speed , which less than 1% of it was faster than 5th gate lee according to viz .


Obito has mastered wood release, wow where have you got that from. What level of wood release are you saying he can do?
No a MS can resist genjutsu from an MS, A rinnegan is way higher in power, zero chance of genjutsu working. 6 pain's vs 1 itachi, how is he even going to use a successful genjutsu. 

The sharingan developing new abilities from the byakugan means the same as MS developing abilities that the sharigan can't do.

Shared link is useless against obito who has to materialize when sucking someone into kamui. He was struggling against torune and fuu. upgrade that by 4 people who can see the same thing. Obito isn't doing shit, He almost got beat by konan in 1vs1, struggled against torune and fuu. Against pain he gets destroyed. 

Obito uses wood release. ST clears up obito's puny wood release.

No pain shits on itachi, Itachi can't do much against summonigs, deva path, CT, CST. Preta path, need i go one.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 28, 2017)

Come off it said:


> No he says "we're brought back with almost our full power" however due to Hiruzen who is standing right next to them being old you have to interpret this as full power of the age they died. Unless you believe a 70 year old Hiruzen is stronger than a 25-30 year old Hiruzen? Chiyo also has this problem, Nagato has this problem. Therefore Hashirama and Tobirama have this problem. If all of these characters have this problem then how can you just disregard that and not respond with an answer?
> 
> How is it ignorance? Obito never used any of these abilities when he should've, neither did Madara when he had one rinnegan. Madara's Dojutsu ability went up by 4x or 5x when he put his second rinnegan in. You have to assume obito can't use these abilities due to him having one rinnegan and not 2. Anyone with DR spams Preta path and Rinnegan Dojutsu abilities because they are that good.
> 
> Yes Rinnegan users are that powerful man. Look at momoshiki, all he had was preta path to start with. He started shitting on everyone. Look at Nagato. Edo Nagato prime beat Killer Bee and Naruto in under 30 seconds. They were done. No it absorbs anything around Nagato. There are ways around Preta path obviously but it really is that OP. the rinnegan is broken, especially when you have two or more. However uses that use Bijuu power/chakra cloaks can also have their power nullified as shown with Killer Bee.


I'm telling you what happened, although that Hiruzen part, idk. Hashirama, Tobirama, and Madara were all brought back at prime states so that is just a plot hole.

They explained why he doesn't. And look up Appeal to Ignorance. He doesn't have the massive chakra pools Nagato did, so using the rinnegan he is still getting used to will drain him more than Kamui will. And he didn't need to use the rinnegan anyway. He was winning without using any of the techniques

1. Are you really comparing Nagato to Momoshiki? what the f***?
2. Nagato was stomping Bee and Naruto, yes, but here: Obito was doing the same thing against stronger versions of those two, and Juubito was so strong that the plan to beat him was to hit him for a few minutes then have the healers heal you. There was no plan to beat him. This "evidence" is irrelevant.
3. If the rinnegan is just that "op", then 

1. Naruto tied with Sasuke's god-rinnegan 
2. Hashirama was tying with Rinnegan Madara 
3. I don't even have words to describe what SPSM Naruto did to Juubidara the first time they met
4. Naruto already beat Pain 
5. How did Jiraiya take out even 1 of the pains if they are in the same league as Juubito? Hashirama flat out said Juubito is stronger than him. And don't you dare say Jiraiya is anywhere near Hashirama


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Nov 28, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Obito has mastered wood release, wow where have you got that from. What level of wood release are you saying he can do?
> No a MS can resist genjutsu from an MS, A rinnegan is way higher in power, zero chance of genjutsu working. 6 pain's vs 1 itachi, how is he even going to use a successful genjutsu.
> 
> The sharingan developing new abilities from the byakugan means the same as MS developing abilities that the sharigan can't do.
> ...


Obito has mastered because he can do the most powerful technique of wood release in terms of killing power and can do izanagi without shortcomings. He mocked danzo for having an imperfect control over wood release because of his mediocre application over izanagi.

St wouldnt repel it in the time limit and obito can sprout trees in the underground shrubs and elongate it. Wood release is pretty fast , even faster than FRS.

Evolution only decreases power. Evident from the fact , byakugan has better penetrative power than sharingan. Yet even though sharingan evolved from it , byakugan cant cast genjutsu. Meaning evolution has nothing to do with power scale. Sharingan has totally different powers than byakugan , meaning evolution made it a totally different thing. Rinnegan is also a totally different thing after sharingan evolution.
I love how you confidently say sharingan genjutsu wouldnt work on a greater eye even though rinnegan was oneshotted by genjutsu , nagato placed genjutsu barriers to prevent pain from falling into genjutsu , fukasaku said genjutsu is the weakness of pain because tai and nin wouldnt work.

Hagoromo clarified that madara achieved the rinnegan because he became thirsty for power and mixed asuras chakra with indras chakra and got a part of the sages chakra , hence awakened rinnegan. The evolution thing is kinda proven wrong by later manga fact.



Itachi was stated to be faster than 5th gate lee without using 1% of his strength when he raced faster than kakashi sharingan could keep up. In viz. Kakashi said itachis normal sharingan genjutsu is unbreakable hence why he was sweating and said both asuma kurenai to close eyes. He didnt know tsukuyomi back then.

Itachi speedblitzes or beats the paths in taijutsu. He already knew how to create blind spots were there is no blind spot. Naruto's one punch wrecked the strongest path in terms of physicality. Itachi would simply wreck them with a finger flick combined with speedblitzing.

And where is it stated MS can block MS genjutsu and where is stated rinnegan can block MS genjutsu or wouldnt work? Why did nagato put genjutsu barrier in pain? Whats the rinnegans correlation with genjutsu. Ok lets trade powers here , shinra tensei , bansho tenin , asura path , naraka path , preta path , human path wouldnt work on itachi since nagato didnt use it on him. How about that? Nagato would be immune to sharingan genjutsu when you agree to this pact. 


Sasuke's Rinnegan = EMS + Rinnegan = pseudo rinnesharingan. Dont ever pass on his feats to pain. Even hagoromo calls it sasukes rinnegan not simply any rinnegan. Sasuke didnt block IT with with combo rinnegan but with his combo rinnegan + His Susanoo. Sasuke clarified.


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## Come off it (Nov 28, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> I'm telling you what happened, although that Hiruzen part, idk. Hashirama, Tobirama, and Madara were all brought back at prime states so that is just a plot hole.
> 
> They explained why he doesn't. And look up Appeal to Ignorance. He doesn't have the massive chakra pools Nagato did, so using the rinnegan he is still getting used to will drain him more than Kamui will. And he didn't need to use the rinnegan anyway. He was winning without using any of the techniques
> 
> ...



Know they weren't, that's ignorance at its finest. So Nagato, Chiyo, Hiruzen are all plot holes in why they came back old. But Hashirama and Tobirama aren't to make it more convenient for your argument, so let's just say its a plot hole because i have nothing in response. Madara is the only one not brought back at the point of death, Kabuto specifically says Madara's edo is unique for this reason. He wouldn't mention it otherwise. Go read the scan he says your almost returned us to full power, neither stating prime full power for full power at the age they died. So you look to tobirama's right and you see old ass Hiruzen, then you recall you saw old Nagato, old Chiyo. Maybe, just maybe what he mean't was full power corresponding to age. How can you say this is a plot hole, far from it, this big moment in the series kishi just fucked up and forgot Hiruzen can be young, no chance because he's further reinstating that Edo's aren't brought back prime just like the prior nagato and chiyo he had shown earlier in the series. 

No i'm showing you an example of how rinnegan users will full rinnegan abilities fight, Preta path spam, heavy rinnegan uses. If you want to argue obito couldn't use them because it was new then fine i could agree with you there but nevertheless he wasn't using them at all. Okay so Nagato's chakra pools are bigger, but what about juubito TSO's + Preta path = GG to the shinobi alliance - Mads and Hashi. So why doesn't he use any techniques now. He's got Juubi chakra backing him. Mads similarly has this problem, he could've absorbed Naruto's lava rasenshuriken and sasuke's lighting sword but he didn't...because one of Mads rinnegan doesn't give you this ability. You need two for this. Edo DR Mads was spamming Preta path and he doesn't use it once with 1 Rinnegan. Rinnegan uses abilities differ, Sasuke's preta path is inferior to Mads one because he from what we've seen has to make full contact with the indivdual's body to absorb chakra. Mads rinnegan has a 360 radius around the users body, Momo's absorbs through his hands and can fire the same absorbed jutsu again powered up by his own power. DR users preta path is far superior to 1 rinnegan users as you'd probably guess due to Mads insane dojutsu buff when he received 2. YES SASUKE'S INDIVIDUAL RINNEGAN IS STRONGER than Mads individual rinnegan, that's why he still has some form of preta path. Sasuke's preta path will be superior to Mads when he gets his second rinnegan. Yes sasuke has mastered his rinnegan but obito mastered his MS, no matter how much his masters one MS it will always be inferior to his DMS. One MS is weaker than 2MS from the same person. The same rules will apply here. Obviously some abilities differ, but users that use the same ability will always be weaker with 1 eye compared to two. 

Yes but Nagato won in under 30 seconds by himself whereas obito needed 6 jins + himself to make this position even possible. Again juubito was so strong but he never used Rinnegan abilities + Juubi jins abilities. The reason Mads is swapped out for Kaguya is because Full Rinnegan abilities + Juubi + experenced fighter = GG for anyone. Unbeatable. Obito has two of three which is why he loses. Just imagine obito spamming nagato's abilities with juubi backing. He would've won so easily. Kishi is careful to not give an individual 3/3 because he realized with how powerful that character will be. There will never be a character in the Naruto verse again that possess all 3 at the same time for this reason.

1st point - Your points about Naruto tying with Sasuke's rinnegan is because sasuke lacks his second rinnegan. If sasuke gets his second rinnegan naruto loses badly. There's a reason kishi gave him one rinnegan not two. Sasuke will get his second rinnegan when, only when naruto gets Mokuton to negate Preta path, otherwise naruto can't do anything. Just wait for this to happen in boruto. 

2nd point - Hashirama was tying with Mads because Mokuton negates preta path. If Hashi was Prime SMSS would've annihilated Mads in seconds but as his edo is not near prime his best was SMWG to combat Mads Rinnegan PS. Simple logic man. Yes hashi is that powerful, even though people put him way down the list, when he's clearly not.

Your third point - Yes because Mads with his one rinnegan can't use preta path otherwise he would've. Don't say he didn't have the time because he used limbo. Why would he not? He has the juubi + Hashi's SM so NE isn't changing him to stone.

4th point - Naruto beat pain on circumstance that's why the fight was so good. Deva path got his powers back and wrecked Team Naruto by himself in 30 seconds. From the get go, pain ful power, Naruto gets stomped hard. Nothing he can do.

5th point - Because the pains have individual abilities, i'm talking about all abilities rolled into one person. Also all the pains weren't together, if they were jiraiya was dead in under a minute. Deva path + Preta path = GG for jiraiya. Again hashi's edo is far weaker, juubito is superior to edo Hashi but Prime Hashi, him and juubito can beat each other. Prime SMWG > Naruto + EMS Sasuke, SMSS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SMWG. Juubito can win with 4 Quadra-Juubidama's but getting these up whilst under pressure will be difficult for him. SInce TSO's can't block Naruto and Sasuke's combo's. Therefore SMWG will deal more damage from the get go.


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## Come off it (Nov 28, 2017)

Sage light said:


> Obito has mastered because he can do the most powerful technique of wood release in terms of killing power and can do izanagi without shortcomings. He mocked danzo for having an imperfect control over wood release because of his mediocre application over izanagi.
> 
> St wouldnt repel it in the time limit and obito can sprout trees in the underground shrubs and elongate it. Wood release is pretty fast , even faster than FRS.
> 
> ...



Look obito can't attack 12 visually linked eyes + Rinnegan. He lost an arm to torune and fuu. Lost an arm to Konan. Lost an arm, the kyuubi and fled from minato. All of these people figured out Obito's abilities. Pain will do the same and destroy him(if he doesn't know them already). Appearing and materializing will cause obito to lose. He hasn't got the firepower to beat pain. Obito's Mokuton is terrible. So what level of mokuton are you saying he can use, Jukai koutan, kajukai korin, WD, WG,GG,SS?

Again visual genjutsu against a rinnegan user is pointless from someone with an MS.

Itachi can't combat CT, CST, they all one shot. Again itachi is fast but beating six pains, he doesn't have the stamina or power. Yeah but kakashi doesn't have a rinnegan let alone two. Two rinnegan is far above Kakashi.

So itachi hits harder than SM Naruto now with a finger flick. I'm not sure where you are getting this from. He isn't speed blitzing pain. He'll get blown away. Deva path is the strongest, he fought 6 tailed naruto and wasn't defeated.

Nagato doesn't use them on itachi because the rules of edo tensei apply. Edo tensei's respond to enemies attacks. Itachi being a fellow edo tensei is classed as a non enemy by the rules otherwise the 4 kage that fought ohnoki and gaara would've fought each other. They wanted to fight each other but they couldn't, clearly outlining they are non enemies. Kabuto takes away Nagato's ability to talk so he can't tell naruto, bee and itachi where he is and what he's about to do. Knowing that nagato can't respond to Itachi, what happens...CT to catch itachi in the blast with Naruto and Bee. See chapter 547 page 9 for this rule clarification.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Nov 28, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Look obito can't attack 12 visually linked eyes + Rinnegan. He lost an arm to torune and fuu. Lost an arm to Konan. Lost an arm, the kyuubi and fled from minato. All of these people figured out Obito's abilities. Pain will do the same and destroy him(if he doesn't know them already). Appearing and materializing will cause obito to lose. He hasn't got the firepower to beat pain. Obito's Mokuton is terrible. So what level of mokuton are you saying he can use, Jukai koutan, kajukai korin, WD, WG,GG,SS?
> 
> Again visual genjutsu against a rinnegan user is pointless from someone with an MS.
> 
> ...


No no no........ Obito can use the highest killing power technique of mokuton which only the jubi can replicate. Not even hashirama can use it. Meaning he mastered it. He can sprout trees from his body at will , i couldve linked the Db but it says http error so i cant post.

Ocular genjutsu wrecks. Regular genjutsu. If kabuto having kagura eye which surpasses dojutsu in sensing according to databook , closed his eyes in fear of ocular genjutsu , something with poorly lower perception like rinnegan is utterly useless. Nagato feared genjutsu so put genjutsu barriers in pain. MS and sharingan genjutsu have always been stronger than non ocular genjutsu hence why uchihas had so much respect.

Itachi didnt use 1% of speed to become invisible to kakashis sharingan. This same kakashi could keep up with 5th gate lee.
Speed increases mass , so itachi flicks the pain and destroys them. Stamina is a poor excuse , deathbed itachi had more stamina than hebi Sasuke. It doesnt even matter if he has low stamina or not simce he can end the fight in seconds.  Tsukuyomi wrecks. No explanation needed. Itachi burrowed a hole with holding back strength against sasuke without touching the wall. His strength is enough to crush the pains while stationary, moving at high speed increases the force and mass , resulting in greater damage.

More than 10% of his power would be higher than eight gates speed. Hence why guy didnt at least use seventh gate and beat him. Address the points. 

Sasukes feats = Sasukees. Sasukes rinnegan = Tomoe rinnegan.  And again when was sasuke ever immune to ocular genjutsu? When was nagato ever immune to ocular genjutsu? When was any rinnegan user immune to ocular genjutsu? Tobi's yagura controlling genjutsu wrecks pain. Pain has zero defense and is literally weak against genjutsu. Pain is weak. As stated by fukasaku. As fukasaku stated , pain is extremely vulnerable to ocular genjutsu and non ocular genjutsu.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 28, 2017)

Sage light said:


> No no no........ Obito can use the highest killing power technique of mokuton which only the jubi can replicate. Not even hashirama can use it. Meaning he mastered it. He can sprout trees from his body at will , i couldve linked the Db but it says http error so i cant post.
> 
> Ocular genjutsu wrecks. Regular genjutsu. If kabuto having kagura eye which surpasses dojutsu in sensing according to databook , closed his eyes in fear of ocular genjutsu , something with poorly lower perception like rinnegan is utterly useless. Nagato feared genjutsu so put genjutsu barriers in pain. MS and sharingan genjutsu have always been stronger than non ocular genjutsu hence why uchihas had so much respect.
> 
> ...


Dude... Come off it is claiming Nagato is beating Juubito. Don't argue with him. just let it go


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## Come off it (Nov 29, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Dude... Come off it is claiming Nagato is beating Juubito. Don't argue with him. just let it go


Well i said it will be a draw, since they can't hurt each other. Aside from an unlikely happening. Preta path nullifies obito's abilities aside from juubidama, Nagato can literally walk through the barrier if obito tries to juubidama him. Or fly out of the barrier. However Nagato can't hurt juubito as his attacks will be nullified from TSO's defense. So yes it will be a tie. You just can't read context because your brain hurts when looking at words.


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## Arles Celes (Nov 29, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Nothing is outhaxing Kamui. Kamui was enough to take on Kaguya. Why they gave this to a character is beyond me.



Well, an invisible ST smack while Obito tries to grab his target could be troublesome. Dunno if Intangibility makes him immune to Soul Ripping either. And Summons could keep him occupied to give potential openings for Nagato. Asura Path gadgets can also be tricky as Bee noted when a mechanical arm spurted oout of Nagato's back and was so strong that a guy like Bee couldn't break free.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Nov 29, 2017)

When in intangibility, obitos body is in a different dimension so hes immune to physical attacks. But amaterasu is an exception because it transcends space.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 29, 2017)

Sage light said:


> When in intangibility, obitos body is in a different dimension so hes immune to physical attacks. But amaterasu is an exception because it transcends space.


No, it really doesn't. It is fire. fire is not a hard concept.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 29, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Preta path nullifies obito's abilities aside from juubidama


taijutsu blitz, Truth seeking balls, literally any jutsu because the Juubi supplies Obito with its six paths chakra, or again, just any forme of taijutsu because Obito was superior to Nagato even before the juubi


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 29, 2017)

Arles Celes said:


> Well, an invisible ST smack while Obito tries to grab his target could be troublesome. Dunno if Intangibility makes him immune to Soul Ripping either. And Summons could keep him occupied to give potential openings for Nagato. Asura Path gadgets can also be tricky as Bee noted when a mechanical arm spurted oout of Nagato's back and was so strong that a guy like Bee couldn't break free.


The problem being, you're comparing a one-eyed kamui to someone that had decades to learn the rinnegan. if you're gonna say the rinnegan is stronger than kamui because obito can potentially get hit, while Nagato stomped a lower tier character, let's reverse the scenario. Let's wank Nagato and give him sage mode and KCM. So now let's see what happens when he goes against the last character we saw use double Kamui.


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## Come off it (Nov 29, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> taijutsu blitz, Truth seeking balls, literally any jutsu because the Juubi supplies Obito with its six paths chakra, or again, just any forme of taijutsu because Obito was superior to Nagato even before the juubi



TSO's nullified since they are chakra based attacks. Nagato can't damage them with his own attacks though. How is he taijutsu blitzing, He needs the JCM1 cloak to do so which can be nullified by preta path as i've already told you. Killer bee's got nulified so why wouldn't juubito's? Yes obito has Six paths chakra, how does that nullify preta path? I know obito is superior in taijutsu but because he relies on the juubi to do the damage and his kamui abilities now don't work, obito can't damage him whilst using the JCM1. As proved by killer bee. Madara got kicked in half by rock lee, Nagato got hit by v2 form killer bee and took zero damage. Naruto when caught literally couldn't do anything, he tried to attack nagato and no damage was dealt.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 29, 2017)

Come off it said:


> TSO's nullified since they are chakra based attacks. Nagato can't damage them with his own attacks though. How is he taijutsu blitzing, He needs the JCM1 cloak to do so which can be nullified by preta path as i've already told you. Killer bee's got nulified so why wouldn't juubito's? Yes obito has Six paths chakra, how does that nullify preta path? I know obito is superior in taijutsu but because he relies on the juubi to do the damage and his kamui abilities now don't work, obito can't damage him whilst using the JCM1. As proved by killer bee. Madara got kicked in half by rock lee, Nagato got hit by v2 form killer bee and took zero damage. Naruto when caught literally couldn't do anything, he tried to attack nagato and no damage was dealt.


You're comparing a weakened KCM1 teen Naruto to a jinchuriki of the ten tails that was in base stronger than the team of KCM2 Naruto, Kakashi, gated guy, and Killer Bee.


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## Come off it (Nov 29, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> The problem being, you're comparing a one-eyed kamui to someone that had decades to learn the rinnegan. if you're gonna say the rinnegan is stronger than kamui because obito can potentially get hit, while Nagato stomped a lower tier character, let's reverse the scenario. Let's wank Nagato and give him sage mode and KCM. So now let's see what happens when he goes against the last character we saw use double Kamui.


Rinnegan is stronger no matter which way you look at it when possessed by its original owner.

You're so bad at comparing man. You're saying let's have SPS added to double Kamui on its original user via obito's BS return. To Nagato who isn't even the original owner and has no SPS. You have to compare it to Juubidara and Juubidara wins. Rinnegan over Kamui everytime.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 29, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Rinnegan is stronger no matter which way you look at it when possessed by its original owner.
> 
> You're so bad at comparing man. You're saying let's have SPS added to double Kamui on its original user via obito's BS return. To Nagato who isn't even the original owner and has no SPS. You have to compare it to Juubidara and Juubidara wins. Rinnegan over Kamui everytime.


Ok? Rinnegan Mads to DMS Obito. Let's go!


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## Come off it (Nov 29, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> You're comparing a weakened KCM1 teen Naruto to a jinchuriki of the ten tails that was in base stronger than the team of KCM2 Naruto, Kakashi, gated guy, and Killer Bee.


I'm not comparing their power levels, i'm showing you that chakra cloaks can be absorbed, the juubi is no exception to this rule. Regardless of power level it can be absorbed if its just a standard attack. Obviously juubidama's aren't being absorbed but a normal punch will be.


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 29, 2017)

Come off it said:


> I'm not comparing their power levels, i'm showing you that chakra cloaks can be absorbed, the juubi is no exception to this rule. Regardless of power level it can be absorbed if its just a standard attack. Obviously juubidama's aren't being absorbed but a normal punch will be.


He needs to grab them. He is not perpetually siphoning chakra from everyone that is near him


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## Come off it (Nov 29, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Ok? Rinnegan Mads to DMS Obito. Let's go!


Mads stomps, wood clones + 5 limbo clones = GG for madara getting Kamui'ed and taijutsu. PS Vs PS, obito will run out of sight before he can do any real damage to Madara. That's not even juubidara that's just plain DR Mads without any SM or SPS buffs. Also DMS obito has had the SPS buff.


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## Come off it (Nov 29, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> He needs to grab them. He is not perpetually siphoning chakra from everyone that is near him


Yes it is within about a foot radius around his body. That's why i said it will be a draw because neither can damage the other without the other reacting sufficiently. Prime Nagato (able to walk) would be superior to his edo counterpart in every field. Considering his edo counterpart is 40+ and not at full power at that current age. Even if his edo was prime he'd still be weaker as shown by Mads.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Nov 30, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> No, it really doesn't. It is fire. fire is not a hard concept.


Its not "fire" tho. Its a living intangible flame according to karin.


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## Come off it (Nov 30, 2017)

Sage light said:


> Its not "fire" tho. Its a living intangible flame according to karin.


Yes but obito can phase through it. Obito has never been shown to not be able to phase through anything. It wouldn't hit him regardless, its far to slow. If he can phase through and react to the raikage, amaterasu isn't doing much offensively.


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## Kai (Nov 30, 2017)

Sage light said:


> Its not "fire" tho. Its a living intangible flame according to karin.


Amaterasu is officially classified as the highest level of Fire Release by multiple DB's.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 30, 2017)

Kai said:


> Amaterasu is officially classified as the highest level of Fire Release by multiple DB's.



Technically it isn't Katon, it is Enton.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Dec 1, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Yes but obito can phase through it. Obito has never been shown to not be able to phase through anything. It wouldn't hit him regardless, its far to slow. If he can phase through and react to the raikage, amaterasu isn't doing much offensively.


Thats why he got hit...... Sasuke correlated amaterasu to kirin , kirin is classified as light-speed jutsu. Amaterasu transcends space as nagato and black zetsu noted a change in pressure whenever amaterasu was released.


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## Come off it (Dec 1, 2017)

Sage light said:


> Thats why he got hit...... Sasuke correlated amaterasu to kirin , kirin is classified as light-speed jutsu. Amaterasu transcends space as nagato and black zetsu noted a change in pressure whenever amaterasu was released.


Yes because it came from a sasuke who shouldn't have had that attack. Obito having itachi as his opponent already knows his move set. You're also forgetting how long it takes itachi to use amaterasu when he's alive.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Dec 2, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Yes because it came from a sasuke who shouldn't have had that attack. Obito having itachi as his opponent already knows his move set. You're also forgetting how long it takes itachi to use amaterasu when he's alive.


The prep time includes dripping of blood from the castor's eyes. Obito knew only one technique in the whole shinobi world bleeds like that. He knows Ama. He himself got surprised seeing Sasuke use it yet he couldnt pull up his kamui phase... amaterasu transcends space and hits him in his dimension. Even Db says it is a flame from a black world. So its a special flame which bypasses other dimensions. Otherwise why does it have a pressure which other MS jutsu dont have? Its clearly pressuring the space and stopping it from working. Even kakashi couldnt teleport ama from the forest.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Come off it (Dec 4, 2017)

Sage light said:


> The prep time includes dripping of blood from the castor's eyes. Obito knew only one technique in the whole shinobi world bleeds like that. He knows Ama. He himself got surprised seeing Sasuke use it yet he couldnt pull up his kamui phase... amaterasu transcends space and hits him in his dimension. Even Db says it is a flame from a black world. So its a special flame which bypasses other dimensions. Otherwise why does it have a pressure which other MS jutsu dont have? Its clearly pressuring the space and stopping it from working. Even kakashi couldnt teleport ama from the forest.


Just look at Itachi vs Sasuke and tell me Itachi can use Amaterasu instantly. Pain CT + GG, zero counters for itachi. Pain beats Obito since its virtually impossible for obito to damage pain. 12 visually linked eyes stand next to each other sending summons out to fight obito, deva path and asura path he's got zero counters for this but dodging. Nagato beats him even more.


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## Ogihci Shirosaki (Dec 5, 2017)

I consider MS Obito above Pain. It's a small but clear lead. His potential (i.e., Rinnegan and such) is what makes him more dangerous in the long run (i.e., War Arc).

Power in what sense? Pain has more destructive power. Maybe Obito punches harder, at least more than the majority of the Paths. In a fight I'd side with Obito after a very difficult battle.
Normally, I believe he has a very small chance of defeating MS Obito and next to none against Pain. With enough knowledge, he can compete against Obito, and I'd give him a small shot against Pain.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Dec 5, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Just look at Itachi vs Sasuke and tell me Itachi can use Amaterasu instantly. Pain CT + GG, zero counters for itachi. Pain beats Obito since its virtually impossible for obito to damage pain. 12 visually linked eyes stand next to each other sending summons out to fight obito, deva path and asura path he's got zero counters for this but dodging. Nagato beats him even more.


Amaterasu is not instant, but it bypasses space time, thats all im telling. Dont forget obito had seen the blood and activated his intangibility yet didnt phase through it. The prep time disadvantage is cancelled out by space stopping as noted by nagato and black zetsu. Amaterasu comes from another dimension so it can bypass kamui dimension.


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## Xel (Dec 5, 2017)

How do some people still think Obito struggled against Fuu and Torune  I mean



This right here could be a textbook illustration of neg diff

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Come off it (Dec 8, 2017)

Xel'lotath said:


> How do some people still think Obito struggled against Fuu and Torune  I mean
> 
> 
> 
> This right here could be a textbook illustration of neg diff


Yeah but you forgot to show the part where he loses an arm.


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## Xel (Dec 8, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Yeah but you forgot to show the part where he loses an arm.



Upon deliberately touching Torune  And he obviously didn't care about losing an arm, considering he was like, welp, and then tore it off and kicked it at Fuu.

Edit:



Obito is so nonchalant about the whole thing. I wish he took his arm and slapped Fuu with it or something

Reactions: Like 1


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## Steven (Dec 8, 2017)

1. So... who is above who???

Obito was the Leader of Akatsuki.So,he is above Pain

2. Which of these has more power, and who would win in an ALL-OUT fight???

Kamui is broken as fuck,i dont see how Pain can even harm Obito

3. Also, what is the likelihood that a healthy Itachi Uchiha could beat either of them?

He dont stand a chance against Pain.Obito,hmmm,debatable


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## Come off it (Dec 8, 2017)

Xel'lotath said:


> Upon deliberately touching Torune  And he obviously didn't care about losing an arm, considering he was like, welp, and then tore it off and kicked it at Fuu.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> ...


No obito is not nonchalant at all, he is struggling to get any of them, that's why he waiting to see their abilities, then he gets rid of Torune by sacrificing his arm then he easily gets fuu afterwards but as a two they did give him some trouble. Losing an arm isn't exactly a job easily done. Sacrificing his arm was the only way he could've countered Torune's ability.


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## Kai (Dec 8, 2017)

Come off it said:


> Yeah but you forgot to show the part where he loses an arm.


Yeah that was not a big deal whatsoever.

The Zetsu parts are replaceable commodities. Madara ripped off Zetsu’s arm with his bare hand and added it to himself like it was another day.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Xel (Dec 9, 2017)

Come off it said:


> No obito is not nonchalant at all



He... is. If you watch the anime, it's even in the tone of his voice. Besides, he has stuff like Bakufu Ranbu so no, he didn't _have_ to touch Torune. He only did cause he wanted to stash them away for further use.

Also, Obito is smart, so if he cared about losing an arm, I bet he would have been more careful when touching Torune. Maybe he'd grab him by the hair or clothes or something.


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## Itachibeatsmadara (Dec 9, 2017)

Nagato is stronger in raw strenght and chakra but obito wins a fight with mid-diff


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## Seraphic Tenebris (Oct 17, 2021)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Obito is more so
> 
> And that's ultimately where opinions fail. Obito was not depicted as anything but annoying prior to acquiring the Rinnegan. Hence him being pitted against Danzo's minions opposed to Danzo himself. Hence him being pitted against Konan, the same Konan that was one-shotted by Jiraiya. Against Minato he was thrashed quite easily, hence his position among the Akatsuki power ranking among the lower end of the spectrum.(Prior to obtaining the Rinnegan of course)
> 
> ...


I second this as well as your succeeding arguments.


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## Quipchaque (Oct 17, 2021)

1.Nagato

2.Nagato

3.100% against Obito, 49% against Nagato

Reactions: Like 1


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## MShadows (Oct 17, 2021)

Starzenith said:


> I second this as well as your succeeding arguments.


Do NOT revive year old threads!

Reactions: Informative 1 | Friendly 1


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