# Prime Rayleigh vs Mihawk



## Irene (May 6, 2020)

No restrictions .

Who do you think wins this duel ?


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## Red Admiral (May 6, 2020)

Mihawk is a better CoA user
Mihawk is a better swordsmaster

Mihawk win extreme diff


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## Gomu (May 6, 2020)

Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world. That means every other swordsman at this point is weaker than he is. Prime Rayleigh should at least give him an extreme diff battle. But otherwise, he loses here. Rayleigh may be a Swordsman but there is nothing relating to his swordsmanship being "Strongest Swordsman".


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## Duhul10 (May 6, 2020)

Mei-O Reiriiii


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## Turrin (May 6, 2020)

If Raleigh’s main fighting style is swordsmanship then Mihawk wins as Raleigh never achieved Black Blade like Mihawk and is the inferior swordsman. If Raleigh has another style of combat then it could be different


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## A Optimistic (May 6, 2020)

Not sure.

On one hand, Mihawk is supposed to be Zoro's final opponent and he holds the title of World's Strongest Swordsman. On the other hand, Prime Rayleigh was compared in the same breath as Whitebeard by Garp and naturally he'll be a monster.

There's arguments for both sides.


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## Gomu (May 6, 2020)

A Optimistic said:


> Not sure.
> 
> On one hand, Mihawk is supposed to be Zoro's final opponent and he holds the title of World's Strongest Swordsman. On the other hand, Prime Rayleigh was compared in the same breath as Whitebeard by Garp and naturally he'll be a monster.
> 
> There's arguments for both sides.


They were talking in relation to their era, Mihawk is a new era after Roger was dead.


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## Draco Bolton (May 6, 2020)

Rayleigh have a sword so Mihawk win.


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## TheWiggian (May 6, 2020)

Extreme diff either way or Mihawk edges it out, so basically Shanks vs Mihawk.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Amol (May 6, 2020)

Of course Rayleigh wins. 
He is basically EoS Zoro. 
That is like asking whether Shanks(Luffy's idol) is stronger than Roger or not. 
Mihawk is WSS of current generation. He was a kid when Rayleigh was in his Prime so using his title(which is shaky at best) against Dark King is one of the stupidest thing I have ever seen here. 
I don't put much mind to titles. Unless I know how Mihawk got his title I ain't giving him any scaling. He never fought with Yonkou Shanks in his entire life so he doesn't get to scale with him. 
Old Rayleigh however matched with Kizaru(regardless who would have won in the end). 
Prime Rayleigh obviously was stronger than his old out of shape self. 
Mihawk first needs to prove to me that he can beat Kizaru himself which with his current feats and abysmal portrayal on MF he can't do. 
So until Mihawk gets actual feats that are his own he loses this fight. Rayleigh has better hype, better portrayal and more importantly better feats than him.

Reactions: Like 5 | Dislike 1


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## Gomu (May 6, 2020)

Amol said:


> Of course Rayleigh wins.
> He is basically EoS Zoro.
> That is like asking whether Shanks(Luffy's idol) is stronger than Roger or not.
> Mihawk is WSS of current generation. He was a kid when Rayleigh was in his Prime so using his title(which is shaky at best) against Dark King is one of the stupidest thing I have ever seen here.
> ...


I'm pretty sure that if Rayleigh was the strongest, he'd have stayed the strongest even after Roger's Era was over, Whitebeard was the Strongest until he died. Mihawk earned the title while those of the older generation still exist.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Amol (May 6, 2020)

Gomu said:


> I'm pretty sure that if Rayleigh was the strongest, he'd have stayed the strongest even after Roger's Era was over, Whitebeard was the Strongest until he died. Mihawk earned the title while those of the older generation still exist.


What kind of argument is this? 
Yes WB had title but we also know he was clearly not on the same level as he was in his Prime. 
If a guy beats Old WB, it wouldn't put him on PK level just because WB had WSM title. 
There is concept of Relativity. 
Many people here doesn't even think that old WB was really WSM. 
And circumstances of WB and Rayleigh are different. 
WB was active Pirate who was in stalemate with other Yonkou. 
Rayleigh retired. He stopped practicing Swordsmanship as we know for the fact he hadn't touched his sword in entire decade. 
Do you expect Rayleigh to magically maintain his strength in retirement without bothering to hold a sword? 
That is definition of being unreasonable. 
After WB died whoever was second strongest automatically became the new WSM but that wouldn't mean he was stronger than WB when he was alive. Do you see how illogical your assertion is now? 
So Titles existing for active and alive people.
Man I really hate discussing Mihawk because most of the time it tends be fanfiction and weird ass scaling via Olympic worthy mental gymnastic. 
Use man's own feats FFS.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (May 6, 2020)

Amol said:


> What kind of argument is this?
> Yes WB had title but we also know he was clearly not on the same level as he was in his Prime.
> If a guy beats Old WB, it wouldn't put him on PK level just because WB had WSM title.
> There is concept of Relativity.
> ...


So you're one of those people that's taking the official title of someone while the person you're repping is still alive, and strong. He fights Kizaru to a standstill, even when he still was in his Prime Years, Mihawk was already making his way to become one of the strongest swordsman.

My argument would be invalid if there weren't any context clues to the situation, but Mihawk was already one of the strongest Swordsman around a little after Roger's Era, so much so that Shanks gained notoriety FOR facing him. Rayleigh was well known, there's no reason he couldn't have had two names even listing his Swordsmanship as the strongest in his prime, but Oda did not do that.

He made Mihawk the Strongest Swordsman, prominent old generation-ers are around. Whitebeard was still the Strongest Man. What's more, what are these exceptional feats that Prime Rayleigh has that places him over Mihawk.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fel1x (May 6, 2020)

Prime Ray is much stronger than Vista

you have your answer

best Mihawk feats are defeating Don Crieg's ships and fighting equally with Vista. 
Ray's feat is to be close to Roger's level

stomp thread. close it

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gomu (May 6, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> Prime Ray is much stronger than Vista
> 
> you have your answer
> 
> ...


Nah, his best feats include cutting Aokiji's icebergs with little issue that is stronger than steel, the ability to cut a slash so powerful that it can be considered one of the strongest due to him being considered the strongest, having no issues within the war and taking no cuts or hits from Vista upon fighting him, etc, etc. He calls Vista strong, and we don't know the relation of Vista's power in relation to Rayleigh, because I'm pretty sure even the three admirals know that he's the strongest swordsman too and if he'd have faced Kizaru in a sword battle it'd been a different battle entirely.


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## Ruse (May 6, 2020)

Could go either way


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## Canute87 (May 6, 2020)

Oda has done so well to avoid Rayleigh engaging in any fights.



Turrin said:


> If Raleigh’s main fighting style is swordsmanship then Mihawk wins as Raleigh never achieved Black Blade like Mihawk and is the inferior swordsman. If Raleigh has another style of combat then it could be different



Until Oda reveals that it is the white blade that is truly the epitome of swordsman mastery and rayleigh achieved it.


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## Turrin (May 6, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> Until Oda reveals that it is the white blade that is truly the epitome of swordsman mastery and rayleigh achieved it.


Does Raleigh have some characteristic white blade?


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## Beast (May 6, 2020)

Ray has CoC and Mihawk does not.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Gomu (May 6, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Ray has CoC and Mihawk does not.


CoC means nothing in a fight with a person in a similar power level to you. What are these rules...


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## Amol (May 6, 2020)

Gomu said:


> So you're one of those people that's taking the official title of someone while the person you're repping is still alive, and strong. He fights Kizaru to a standstill, even when he still was in his Prime Years, Mihawk was already making his way to become one of the strongest swordsman.
> 
> My argument would be invalid if there weren't any context clues to the situation, but Mihawk was already one of the strongest Swordsman around a little after Roger's Era, so much so that Shanks gained notoriety FOR facing him. Rayleigh was well known, there's no reason he couldn't have had two names even listing his Swordsmanship as the strongest in his prime, but Oda did not do that.
> 
> He made Mihawk the Strongest Swordsman, prominent old generation-ers are around. Whitebeard was still the Strongest Man. What's more, what are these exceptional feats that Prime Rayleigh has that places him over Mihawk.


You are not making any sense at all. This is extreme wanking in every sense. No wonder Mihawk stans gets bad rep everywhere. 
Mihawk got his title after Rayleigh retired and went away from public eye. He also grew weak in strength. He literally stopped being a Swordsman. 
Mihawk then by some unknown means became WSS. We don't know how he became WSS. For all we know it was sword juggling competition which Mihawk won. 
So unless whoever Mihawk beat someone who was stronger than Prime Rayleigh, he gets no scaling to him. 
Jesus. This is basic shit. 
We don't give people imaginary feats. Mihawk's title at best gives him edge over old Rayleigh because he can beat him 'now' but as he was just a kid when Rayleigh was in his Prime and OPverse doesn't have power scouter we will never know how he matches to Prime Rayleigh. 
If some guy gets WSM title now, it wouldn't automatically put him PK tier considering he never fucking fought with either Roger or Primebeard. 
We use what is actually shown to us. 
I don't give rats ass about Mihawk's title(same goes for Kaido's WSC) as I don't know how they got it. Like I said I don't believe in imaginary feats and scaling. 
Mihawk's own portrayal and feats are horrible. Oda should have had him fodderize Vista on MF just like he had Kaido fodderize Luffy to prove his strength. So I refuse to give Mihawk win over people who have on panel better feats. 
If tomorrow Oda writes Mihawk humiliating Admiral or something, I will happily concede and accept that I was wrong but as for things stands now Prime Rayleigh has got everything better. Mihawk's overrated title isn't enough to give him win here. 
And I am done on this debate. 
OT : Prime Rayleigh is EoS Zoro just like Roger is EoS Luffy. 
That is highest possible hype a character can have. Being right hand man of Pirate King. He also has exceptional feat in stalemating an Admiral in his old age. 
So Prime Rayleigh wins with High diff .
P. S. : Roger was a Swordman too. 
So I guess because Mihawk is WSS he is stronger than Roger too. 
10/10 logic Gomu.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Beast (May 6, 2020)

Gomu said:


> CoC means nothing in a fight with a person in a similar power level to you. What are these rules...


Ray is a master Swordsman, has excellent BH/ KH and CoC, CoC is the difference between the two, doesn’t matter if it can’t currently be used in a fight, Ray is at worse equal to Mihawk in everything except he has CoC.

The sword being black is also pretty stupid comparison, when we still don’t know if Mihawk turned it black himself or if there is a special case behind it all.


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## Canute87 (May 6, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Does Raleigh have some characteristic white blade?



Thought you'd get the joke 



MasterBeast said:


> Ray is a master Swordsman, has excellent BH/ KH and CoC, CoC is the difference between the two, doesn’t matter if it can’t currently be used in a fight, Ray is at worse equal to Mihawk in everything except he has CoC.
> 
> The sword being black is also pretty stupid comparison, *when we still don’t know if Mihawk turned it black himself or if there is a special case behind it all.*


I think it's a safe assumption that Mihawk achieved that on his own.


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## Fel1x (May 6, 2020)

it is always funny how guys use black blade as an argument. black blade doesn't tell anything about person's overall strength

will repeat myself once again but all top tiers with sword don't have black blades


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## Turrin (May 6, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> Thought you'd get the joke


I can never tell on this forum man lol


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## Gomu (May 6, 2020)

Amol said:


> You are not making any sense at all. This is extreme wanking in every sense. No wonder Mihawk stans gets bad rep everywhere.
> Mihawk got his title after Rayleigh retired and went away from public eye. He also grew weak in strength. He literally stopped being a Swordsman.
> Mihawk then by some unknown means became WSS. We don't know how he became WSS. For all we know it was sword juggling competition which Mihawk won.
> So unless whoever Mihawk beat someone who was stronger than Prime Rayleigh, he gets no scaling to him.
> ...


I'm not even a Mihawk stan, I'm a logic stan. Rayleigh would have been the Strongest Swordsman in his era and now, as Whitebeard was as well. There was no hint or mention of that being what Rayleigh was, only that he was "Dark King" which is his epitaph more than an actual title.

Who cares if he got his title because of that, he would still have been called the Strongest Swordsman by someone who knew about him. He was not, there was no mention of him being such, you're acting as though Rayleigh is not still alive, him going into hiding has nothing to do with him having a title. It's implied that WB hadn't fought anyone of note since Marineford within the span of the Great Age of Piracy and yet he kept his title of "World's Strongest Man" and yet, Rayleigh has no such title, he would have had such a title if Oda gave it to him.

He became WSS through beating stronger and stronger swordsmen. And gained enough of a reputation that Shanks, one of the strongest characters in the series right now, benefitted from their skirmishes.

We don't even know Rayleigh's feats, we have more feats for Mihawk than Rayleigh, so please stop acting as though Rayleigh is a godsend compared to Mihawk unless you can show more feats for Rayleigh than him stalemating an Admiral while everyone, even the Admirals and Oda himself, acknowledges that Mihawk is the Strongest Swordsman.

You're giving Rayleigh imaginary feats. Give me a feat from Rayleigh's prime. I can give you multiple feats of Mihawk, you can't do the same for Prime Rayleigh.

You don't need the title of strongest to be Pirate King Level. You just need to be able to match and rival the pirate king. Prime Garp has feats and statements told of him matching and being able to fight against Roger, what does Rayleigh have other than his title and some feats of haki skill. Even in the most recent flashback we got nothing of Rayleigh doing anything of note other than saying he can take down Oden himself.

Funny how you can't show anything.

I don't give a damn about Kaido's title either, as it's rumored, it's not his actual title. "King of Beasts" Kaido is his title. 

We don't even know Vista's feats, Yonkou Commander isn't even a tier because by that understanding, Rayleigh, supposedly one of the strongest characters around would be a Yonkou Commander. Which is why I hate using you guys made up tier bullshit. Vista was respected by Whitebeard, given a Commander Title of the upper 5 levels (similar to how Blackbeard made the 10 Titanic Captain). Neither one took much damage and it was a focus on their own swordplay more than anything.

Pretty sure that that's not a reason to think that Mihawk is weaker than the Admirals, when one more time... Rayleigh was capable of fighting Kizaru in swordsmanship and Mihawk by his own title which is recognized throughout the world, not just rumored, is the strongest swordsman who wishes for someone superior to SHANKS one of the strongest characters in the series. Stated in his Vivre card by Oda himself. But yeah, call me a Mihawk stan because you don't have an argument to stand on. Yonkou's are comparable to Admirals if you don't understand scaling by now.

I'm glad that you're done because you can't show feats nor can you make an actual claim of him being weaker than Prime Rayleigh because of your own headcanon, it's good to back down when the rib shots hurt too much.

OT: That's your headcanon, take it somewhere not here before calling me a Mihawk stan.
But can you give Prime Rayleigh feats to that name. I heard nothing about Rayleigh being the strongest swordsman, if anything Roger showed a better swordsmanship feat than he did by clashing with Oden and knocking him away.

Mhm. You go ahead and sleep well knowing you win in your own mind. Maybe one day you'll awake from your dream.

Roger actually has feats with scaling with the World's Strongest Man and being called his equal. I fail to see where Rayleigh who has the feat of barely holding off an Admiral is comparable to clashing with the guy that's considered the World's Strongest Man but sure.

0/10 logic Amol.



MasterBeast said:


> Ray is a master Swordsman, has excellent BH/ KH and CoC, CoC is the difference between the two, doesn’t matter if it can’t currently be used in a fight, Ray is at worse equal to Mihawk in everything except he has CoC.
> 
> The sword being black is also pretty stupid comparison, when we still don’t know if Mihawk turned it black himself or if there is a special case behind it all.



Didn't say he wasn't a master swordsman, but the thing about you guys that you seem to forget that Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in One Piece right now, an indisputable fact given from Oda himself stating that he was either stronger than or equal to Shanks, even before he lost his arm. CoC has nothing to do with combat prowess, it only gives you the ability to exude your own pressure over something of your choosing, but it's pretty safe to say that if you're strong enough you can withstand such a power. We don't know Mihawk's full abilities and are going about statements from both Oda and from what's stated from incanon, unlike Kaido is title is not rumored, he's considered the strongest swordsman bar none.

I don't know if his blade is black for his power or not, I don't make assumptions, I try to use facts, until something is stated specifically about his sword being black because of his own mastery over it, I can't delegate my opinion.


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## Beast (May 6, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> I think it's a safe assumption that Mihawk achieved that on his own.


Probably but if there is a special case like IDK, being one with the sword or some shit, then meh. Still no confirmation of anything though.


Gomu said:


> I'm not even a Mihawk stan, I'm a logic stan. Rayleigh would have been the Strongest Swordsman in his era and now, as Whitebeard was as well. There was no hint or mention of that being what Rayleigh was, only that he was "Dark King" which is his epitaph more than an actual title.
> 
> Who cares if he got his title because of that, he would still have been called the Strongest Swordsman by someone who knew about him. He was not, there was no mention of him being such, you're acting as though Rayleigh is not still alive, him going into hiding has nothing to do with him having a title. It's implied that WB hadn't fought anyone of note since Marineford within the span of the Great Age of Piracy and yet he kept his title of "World's Strongest Man" and yet, Rayleigh has no such title, he would have had such a title if Oda gave it to him.
> 
> ...


Yes, currently Mihawk is the WSS, but Prime Ray not Roger are of this era to begin with.


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## Gomu (May 6, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Probably but if there is a special case like IDK, being one with the sword or some shit, then meh. Still no confirmation of anything though.
> 
> Yes, currently Mihawk is the WSS, but Prime Ray not Roger are of this era to begin with.


But again, what is "Prime" here, because Kaido and Big Mom are pushing 70 years old, and yet they are stronger than they were 20 years before the current arc. You can't use "Prime" as an understanding of strength, especially when 24 years prior, Mihawk was making a name for himself the same as Shanks and Shanks benefits more from fighting Mihawk than Mihawk fighting Shanks.


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## Duhul10 (May 6, 2020)

Gomu said:


> But again, what is "Prime" here, because *Kaido* and Big Mom are pushing 70 years old, and yet they are stronger than they were 20 years before the current arc. You can't use "Prime" as an understanding of strength, especially when 24 years prior, Mihawk was making a name for himself the same as Shanks and Shanks benefits more from fighting Mihawk than Mihawk fighting Shanks.


70, huh ? joking right ?


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## Beast (May 6, 2020)

Gomu said:


> But again, what is "Prime" here, because Kaido and Big Mom are pushing 70 years old, and yet they are stronger than they were 20 years before the current arc. You can't use "Prime" as an understanding of strength, especially when 24 years prior, Mihawk was making a name for himself the same as Shanks and Shanks benefits more from fighting Mihawk than Mihawk fighting Shanks.


Prime Ray and Roger would be around during their last adventure, within the last 5-10 years of Rogers journey imo. 

Prime for OP characters seems to be 50 give or take a couple years. Both roger and Ray were 55+ years of age, during the year they became known as the PK. 

BM is meant to be the exception I’m guessing because of her iron ball like body.


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## Gomu (May 6, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Prime Ray and Roger would be around during their last adventure, within the last 5-10 years of Rogers journey imo.
> 
> Prime for OP characters seems to be 50 give or take a couple years. Both roger and Ray were 55+ years of age, during the year they became known as the PK.
> 
> BM is meant to be the exception I’m guessing because of her iron ball like body.


Once again. Both Big Mom and Kaido are in their 60s.


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## Beast (May 6, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Once again. Both Big Mom and Kaido are in their 60s.


BM is 68.

Kaidous age is unknown but he is roughly 50, give he was only a cabin boy like Marco and a Shanks 39 years ago on the Rox crew, while BM was a full fledged member, Kaidou even calls her a old hag.


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## Gomu (May 6, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> BM is 68.
> 
> Kaidous age is unknown but he is roughly 50, give he was only a cabin boy like Marco and a Shanks 39 years ago on the Rox crew, while BM was a full fledged member, Kaidou even calls her a old hag.


Not roughly 50. He's over 50, he would still be above his prime. These are still older characters, he's closer to 60 than 50. "Prime" in human years, in our time would be around 30 years of age due to both the brain and the body being in its "peak" capacity in terms of conditioning. One Piece's "prime" means nothing seemingly as Rayleigh was losing to Kizaru due to being out of practice, this is not the same as old age.


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## Rp4lyf (May 6, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Prime Ray and Roger would be around during their last adventure, within the last 5-10 years of Rogers journey imo.
> 
> Prime for OP characters seems to be 50 give or take a couple years. Both roger and Ray were 55+ years of age, during the year they became known as the PK.
> 
> BM is meant to be the exception I’m guessing because of her iron ball like body.


Roger died at 53 years old, and was at his strongest from age 35- age 47. After that, he got sick.


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## Beast (May 6, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Not roughly 50. He's over 50, he would still be above his prime. These are still older characters, he's closer to 60 than 50. "Prime" in human years, in our time would be around 30 years of age due to both the brain and the body being in its "peak" capacity in terms of conditioning. One Piece's "prime" means nothing seemingly as Rayleigh was losing to Kizaru due to being out of practice, this is not the same as old age.


Lol, what are you even talking about? 
I’ve already said that prime in O is roughly 50, what do you mean tryna compare it to our human prime time? 
Clearly this is a fictional story and our physics do not apply straight like that. 
And stop acting as if you Kaidous age, Kaidou could be anywhere from 45- 57 years of age, you don’t know which it is closer to, stop acting as if you do. 

Clearly you’re reading the story with your own narrative, prime time is a real thing OP and characters become old, who else do you need to tell you other then WSM WB? 
Garp? Ray? 

BM is the exception and you try to use her as the rule lol, wow.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (May 6, 2020)

Rp4lyf said:


> Roger died at 53 years old, and was at his strongest from age 35- age 47. After that, he got sick.


I don’t think the sickness made him any weaker, at least physically. 
During the time Crocus travelled with them, he was able to keep the sickness from affecting Roger too much too the point he could still fight and was given a green light by Crocus in the Edd war against shiki.


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## Gomu (May 6, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Lol, what are you even talking about?
> I’ve already said that prime in O is roughly 50, what do you mean tryna compare it to our human prime time?
> Clearly this is a fictional story and our physics do not apply straight like that.
> And stop acting as if you Kaidous age, Kaidou could be anywhere from 45- 57 years of age, you don’t know which it is closer to, stop acting as if you do.
> ...


You guys seem to want to compare Primes. Mihawk was reaching infamy during Prime years with Rayleigh still being alive. There was nothing to state that Rayleigh was the Strongest Swordsman, only another "one of the strongest swordsmen", that's not WSS.

Except for all three of the characters, you stated can still fight some of the strongest characters in the series. 

No. You guys are using it as the rule. Unless it's otherwise stated, characters are of a similar power level to what they were in their "primes" which by your recognition is 50+. I don't recognize that rule, Oda didn't place it, as a rule, it was not placed in context either.


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## Rp4lyf (May 6, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> I don’t think the sickness made him any weaker, at least physically.
> During the time Crocus travelled with them, he was able to keep the sickness from affecting Roger too much too the point he could still fight and was given a green light by Crocus in the Edd war against shiki.


Rayleigh said Roger was being ravaged by illness and was in pain 24/7. In the Oden flashback you see him coughing like crazy. His stamina took a hit, he could not fight at peak strength for long.

This is why he avoided fighting Big Mom.


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## hajimehipo (May 6, 2020)

Rayleigh is a swordman 
Rayleigh never turned his sword black 
the only people equal or above to mihawk were/wll be ryuma alive and EOS zoro


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## Rp4lyf (May 6, 2020)

hajimehipo said:


> Rayleigh is a swordman
> Rayleigh never turned his sword black
> the only people equal or above to mihawk were/wll be ryuma alive and EOS zoro


Gol D Roger, Rocks D Xebec, Shiki and Shanks exist. That point is invalid.


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## Beast (May 6, 2020)

Gomu said:


> You guys seem to want to compare Primes. Mihawk was reaching infamy during Prime years with Rayleigh still being alive. There was nothing to state that Rayleigh was the Strongest Swordsman, only another "one of the strongest swordsmen", that's not WSS.
> 
> Except for all three of the characters, you stated can still fight some of the strongest characters in the series.
> 
> No. You guys are using it as the rule. Unless it's otherwise stated, characters are of a similar power level to what they were in their "primes" which by your recognition is 50+. I don't recognize that rule, Oda didn't place it, as a rule, it was not placed in context either.


No one is using it as a rule, you seem to have your mind set on your own but it’s clear as day that a prime Ray is stronger then a current one, I’m one of the few that think the old gen and top tiers in general don’t weaken THAT much. Prime Ray would still need at least high diff, if not almost extreme but would beat his current version 10/ 10 times. This might slightly defer for characters depending on their health/ standing etc. 


Rp4lyf said:


> Rayleigh said Roger was being ravaged by illness and was in pain 24/7. In the Oden flashback you see him coughing like crazy. His stamina took a hit, he could not fight at peak strength for long.
> 
> This is why he avoided fighting Big Mom.


We saw him coughing once or twice and he tried to hide it from his crew iirc, but Roger not fighting at Full strength seems like so Bull to me, given his nature and personality, he did everything with all his strength and holding back because of death did not seem like the Roger we all know. 

When did he fight BM? 
I thought it was years before they met Oden, like 13 years+, though that line of thought I wouldn’t agree with to begin with.


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## Gomu (May 6, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> No one is using it as a rule, you seem to have your mind set on your own but it’s clear as day that a prime Ray is stronger then a current one, I’m one of the few that think the old gen and top tiers in general don’t weaken THAT much. Prime Ray would still need at least high diff, if not almost extreme but would beat his current version 10/ 10 times. This might slightly defer for characters depending on their health/ standing etc.


I don't think so. We just have a difference in opinion, unless characters are sick or out of shape for me, Big Mom being an outlier is too much for me, especially when characters like Kureha and even Brook (though this CAN be counted as an outlier) exist. That means the potential for people to live longer for whatever reason is there in my eyes. A "Prime" doesn't matter to me so long as they are capable of fighting and training.


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## Dunno (May 6, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> it is always funny how guys use black blade as an argument. black blade doesn't tell anything about person's overall strength
> 
> will repeat myself once again but all top tiers with sword don't have black blades


Is it funny that we are using the fact that Mihawk is the only one who has managed a feat which is directly connected to CoA as an argument? Not all top tiers with swords have black blades, and it's because not all top tiers meet the requirements to create them. 



Rp4lyf said:


> Gol D Roger, Rocks D Xebec, Shiki and Shanks exist. That point is invalid.


The fact that Roger didn't have a black blade simply makes it more impressive. We don't know whether or not Rocks had a black blade, and Shiki and Shanks are most likely weaker than Mihawk anyway, so they are moot points.

It's funny how people try to use the fact that nobody else alive has managed to do what Mihawk has done to make it seem less impressive. We don't know what exactly is involved, but we know (assuming Mihawk made his blade black) that Mihawk is better at it than anyone else in recent history.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Fel1x (May 6, 2020)

Dunno said:


> Is it funny that we are using the fact that Mihawk is the only one who has managed a feat which is directly connected to CoA as an argument? Not all top tiers with swords have black blades, and it's because not all top tiers meet the requirements to create them.
> 
> 
> The fact that Roger didn't have a black blade simply makes it more impressive. We don't know whether or not Rocks had a black blade, and Shiki and Shanks are most likely weaker than Mihawk anyway, so they are moot points.
> ...


Vergo managed to make even his dick black, wow. it's even more impressive because Roger's dick isn't black


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## Dunno (May 6, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> Vergo managed to make even his dick black, wow. it's even more impressive because Roger's dick isn't black


My post isn't that long. You could at least read it.


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## Fel1x (May 6, 2020)

Dunno said:


> My post isn't that long. You could at least read it.


just joking around. making sword black doesn't tell anything about his overall strength but you still use it as an argument. this thread isn't about who make his sword more impressive, it's about overall strength


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## hajimehipo (May 6, 2020)

Shiki had an op fruit . he isnt a pure swordsman like shanks , roger  ,  rayleigh ,  zoro ...


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## TheWiggian (May 6, 2020)

hajimehipo said:


> Shiki had an op fruit . he isnt a pure swordsman like shanks , roger  ,  rayleigh ,  zoro ...



Yes and he was defeated by pre ts Luffy


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## Canute87 (May 6, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> just joking around. making sword black doesn't tell anything about his overall strength but you still use it as an argument. this thread isn't about who make his sword more impressive, it's about overall strength


The only advantage I can see so far with a black blade is that one wouldn't need to constantly use haki to strengthen it.
But I  doubt haki depletion is a thing swordsmen need to concern themselves with.


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## Gomu (May 6, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> The only advantage I can see so far with a black blade is that one wouldn't need to constantly use haki to strengthen it.
> But I  doubt haki depletion is a thing swordsmen need to concern themselves with.


Actually they would, considering they also use a more advanced level of haki through their Ryuo and Emission types. It probably can be used to enhance flying slashes as well. Emission is probably a game changer for how destructive projectiles can possibly be. If you have to constantly keep your haki active in a sword battle then stamina also becomes key.


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## Canute87 (May 6, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Actually they would, considering they also use a more advanced level of haki through their Ryuo and Emission types. It probably can be used to enhance flying slashes as well. Emission is probably a game changer for how destructive projectiles can possibly be. If you have to constantly keep your haki active in a sword battle then stamina also becomes key.



But they are only transmitting it through their swords, not like luffy who is transmitting it through his entire body constantly,  the admirals for instance  have been fighting for  whole 10 days and they were firing one shot attacks  against each other,

Katakuri's never depleted either.... but then again he did have time to rest in between embarrassing luffy.

Maybe Black blade   saves on time and execution of attacks, imagine not having to worry about concentration of haki and the focus lies more with you focusing your best attack.  COA usage is a conscious action and it does take energy  and like COO , demeanor may affect  it and  can fluctuate in terms of potency, a black blade on the other hand  is black forever and energy that would be spent using haki would just be spent using powerful attacks.

So maybe the advantage is there. I guess you'd need to have better haki to counter balance that but against Mihawk, but  how much people can truly claim to have better COA than Mihawk


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## Gomu (May 6, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> But they are only transmitting it through their swords, not like luffy who is transmitting it through his entire body constantly,  the admirals for instance  have been fighting for  whole 10 days and they were firing one shot attacks  against each other,
> 
> Katakuri's never depleted either.... but then again he did have time to rest in between embarrassing luffy.
> 
> ...


If it's reinforcing their attacks, they want to not only increase its durability but sharpen their swords to the limit which means a more powerful cutting edge, that could take fair concentration as well.

He was exhausting his supply, the reason Luffy was trying to tire him out was to deplete his use of Haki while he was being chased.

Black blade only seems to make the blade more durable and heavy, which Zoro stated increased the force of attacks considerably (as seen when his 1080 caliber Phoenix against Oarz was far more potent comparatively) due to its weight.


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## Canute87 (May 6, 2020)

Gomu said:


> If it's reinforcing their attacks, they want to not only increase its durability but sharpen their swords to the limit which means a more powerful cutting edge, that could take fair concentration as well.
> 
> He was exhausting his supply, the reason Luffy was trying to tire him out was to deplete his use of Haki while he was being chased.
> 
> Black blade only seems to make the blade more durable and heavy, which Zoro stated increased the force of attacks considerably (as seen when his 1080 caliber Phoenix against Oarz was far more potent comparatively) due to its weight.



But does a black blade mean a sharper sword.

Really?  I don't remember that, I remember Luffy running away from him but that was after the G4 ran out.

Ryuuma's sword is bigger and longer than zoro's other swords though.


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## savior2005 (May 6, 2020)

Prime Rayleigh wins neg difficulty.

Prime Ray>Old Ray>>>Vista>=Mihawk


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## neonlight (May 7, 2020)

Mihawk takes this with high to extreme diff. The aura/charisma around Mihawk is a level above that of Rayleigh's.


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## Yuji (May 7, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Nah, his best feats include cutting Aokiji's icebergs with little issue that is stronger than steel



Aokiji's ice is not stronger than steel and Mihawk wasn't holding back when he cut it.


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## Gomu (May 7, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> But does a black blade mean a sharper sword.
> 
> Really?  I don't remember that, I remember Luffy running away from him but that was after the G4 ran out.
> 
> Ryuuma's sword is bigger and longer than zoro's other swords though.


Of course it does, it enhances the force you can employ with your attacks, reinforcement works both ways.


*Spoiler*: __ 









He also uses three, and then 9 while using Ashura. Haki is a precious resource and as Luffy said, the more you use it the more it weakens in combat, so that means using it for longer periods of time can mean that even if using one sword, if your control over haki isn't good it can be exhausted. And again Zoro is using three swords.


Yuji said:


> Aokiji's ice is not stronger than steel and Mihawk wasn't holding back when he cut it.



Pretty sure his ice being able to block Zoro's Sword clashes is stronger than steel. He created his own sword to fight Zoro and those swords, with no haki could not break his ice while using grass as a component in doing so. The composition would have to be stronger than steel or haki, either way, he can also create platforms for people to walk upon for days on end before they start remotely melting.  Pretty sure the ice is stronger than steel.

Pretty sure...



And if you don't believe Zoro can cut steel normally after this, here's Zoro cutting through some trains that have iron recording their bottoms. This was after he fought Aokiji with the straw hats, so he didn't gain any strength here.

Pretty sure...



Oh and lastly, he fought Akainu's fruit which could melt even steel as if it was butter and it went on for ten days. The result was a changed island, one half ice, one half fire, Punk Hazard.

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## Yuji (May 7, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Of course it does, it enhances the force you can employ with your attacks, reinforcement works both ways.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Mr.1 blocked Mihawk's flying slash that cut through the iceberg.

It's not stronger than steel.


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## Furinji Saiga (May 7, 2020)

Toss up.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Canute87 (May 7, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Of course it does, it enhances the force you can employ with your attacks, reinforcement works both ways.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



I figured Mihawk meant that it preserves the sharpness as the level of attacks were damaging the blades.



> He also uses three, and then 9 while using Ashura. Haki is a precious resource and as Luffy said, the more you use it the more it weakens in combat, so that means using it for longer periods of time can mean that even if using one sword, if your control over haki isn't good it can be exhausted. And again Zoro is using three swords.



actually I was talking about the sword being heavy.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 7, 2020)

only 1 correct answer - Mihawk extreme-diff

Reactions: Like 2


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## Gomu (May 7, 2020)

Yuji said:


> Mr.1 blocked Mihawk's flying slash that cut through the iceberg.
> 
> It's not stronger than steel.


Are you daft? He was trying to hit Luffy, he can place enough force into his attacks to cut steel. If Zoro can do this: 

*Spoiler*: __ 








Mihawk can do it too and with less effort. Notice how the iron shells were only cut after the whirlwind began to cut them. I'm also sure, that unless the Swordsmanship is a byproduct of a unique disposition or technique, Mihawk can replicate the technique of any other swordsman within One Piece as a byproduct of his skill as he has mastered both Strong and Gentle Blade skills up to Big Mom (Her Swordsmanship is a byproduct of sheer force rather than "technique").



Canute87 said:


> I figured Mihawk meant that it preserves the sharpness as the level of attacks were damaging the blades.
> 
> 
> 
> actually I was talking about the sword being heavy.


Why wouldn't it also increase the force of one's strikes as well? 

It is heavy that it increases its durability for whatever reason, but it had more cutting power due to its weight as well. Shuusui's relative cutting force compared from 108 Pound with Shuusui was increased tremendously when he fought Oars.


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## Yuji (May 7, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Are you daft? He was trying to hit Luffy



He was also trying to hit Luffy when he cut the Ice. One was able to block it, the other was not, those are the facts.


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## Gomu (May 7, 2020)

Yuji said:


> He was also trying to hit Luffy when he cut the Ice. One was able to block it, the other was not, those are the facts.


Are you saying that none of his flying slashes have the ability to cut steel, because I don't give a damn about what happened in that panel versus the facts that we see throughout One Piece. He was trying to hit Luffy, just like in the same instance of Whitebeard, he was trying to hit Whitebeard and hit Jozu (though we don't know if he can cut diamond), that's a fact too.

Zoro can create gale force winds with enough power to cut steel, he calls himself inferior to Mihawk even with that. I don't need much. Aokiji clashes with Zoro's swords with his ice sword and fights Akainu.


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## Yuji (May 7, 2020)

Gomu said:


> I don't give a damn about what happened in that panel



So you want to use Mihawk cutting an Iceberg with a flying slash to prove ice is stronger than steel but you don't want to use an actual panel of a flying slash getting stopped by steel? Why even bother to bring up panels, if you're just going to disregard every panel that contradicts you?

The original point was that Mihawk didn't casually cut through the Ice since he admitted he wasn't going to hold back, and nor is Ice stronger than steel. You're overhyping things that shouldn't be overhyped. Chinjao could break an ice continent but I wouldn't use that feat to scale him to Mihawk, it's just some ice. Jozu also had a similar feat using Aokiji's ice. That feat does not belong in this discussion, it's basic.


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## Gomu (May 7, 2020)

Yuji said:


> So you want to use Mihawk cutting an Iceberg with a flying slash to prove ice is stronger than steel but you don't want to use an actual panel of a flying slash getting stopped by steel? Why even bother to bring up panels, if you're just going to disregard every panel that contradicts you?
> 
> The original point was that Mihawk didn't casually cut through the Ice since he admitted he wasn't going to hold back, and nor is Ice stronger than steel. You're overhyping things that shouldn't be overhyped. Chinjao could break an ice continent but I wouldn't use that feat to scale him to Mihawk, it's just some ice. Jozu also had a similar feat using Aokiji's ice. That feat does not belong in this discussion, it's basic.


Because there are more panels that don't then that do. It's like saying "Shanks is weak because he got his arm bitten off by a monster that Luffy defeated in one punch" despite him being a Yonkou. You're taking away from the fact that again, Aokiji clashed swords with a character who could cut steel with his own ice meaning that Zoro could not slash through it normally, again this could be haki, but along with this fact is the fact that again, Akainu's power could literally melt steel and he was able to fight against him no problem, even give him a scar from the ordeal (despite him being a Magma man at that).

Do you actually think that Luffy would be able to dodge a slash from Mihawk if he didn't want to at a level far below the other characters he was fighting? Mihawk was not trying to cut Luffy with a serious slash. Jozu threw his ice, pretty safe to assume that Jozu was one of the physically strongest characters on WB's crew, even Luffy could smash through bedrock as early as Alabasta.

*Coldness affects how hard ice is for example:


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## Yuji (May 7, 2020)

Gomu said:


> It's like saying "Shanks is weak because he got his arm bitten off by a monster that Luffy defeated in one punch



Not the same thing at all, Shanks can be explained away by very early story, the editor told Oda to put it in, Shanks did it to inspire Luffy or he was forced into a choice between saving Luffy or losing his arm.

Mihawk has no such explanations, failing to cut steel with his flying slash happened in the only place Mihawk has feats to speak of.



Gomu said:


> You're taking away from the fact that again, Aokiji clashed swords with a character who could cut steel



Aokiji clashed swords with Zoro for all of one panel, there was no indication Zoro did anything other than block Aokiji's attack and he could have been using haki.



Gomu said:


> Mihawk was not trying to cut Luffy with a serious slash




Mihawk wasn't holding back.


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## Gomu (May 7, 2020)

Yuji said:


> Not the same thing at all, Shanks can be explained away by very early story, the editor told Oda to put it in, Shanks did it to inspire Luffy or he was forced into a choice between saving Luffy or losing his arm.
> 
> Mihawk has no such explanations, failing to cut steel with his flying slash happened in the only place Mihawk has feats to speak of.
> 
> ...


I could care less what Oda was told. The fact remains that it's used to showcase Shanks as a weakling in circles talking about Character vs Character situations. Your same actions look very similar to this, especially when characters have several feats that can be used to dictate what actually happens.

And Zoro has feats (while being inferior to Mihawk) that state that Mihawk can potentially replicate it as a gale/flying slash because all flying slashes and whirling slashes are, are sword pressure exerted from your own cutting force.

It wouldn't matter, Zoro knows that Robin is in danger he's going to strike at him with as much force as possible given the fact that an arc before he was angry at Enel for striking at Robin and is protective of his crewmates.

Mihawk was holding back from the simple fact that Luffy didn't get cut, you think that Luffy at that level would be able to actually evade a serious slash from the same Mihawk who could fight against Shanks on equal grounds, who can send a slash so large that Jozu felt the need to block it with his diamond body, etc. Quit fucking around.


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## xmysticgohanx (May 7, 2020)

Lately I have been going with them being equal. Zoro will prove he is above Prime Rayleigh by beating Mihawk, his final opponent.


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## Quipchaque (May 9, 2020)

Rayleigh extreme diff or stalemate. I believe that just like Roger is the ultimate benchmark for Luffy Rayleigh is supposed to be the ultimate benchmark for Zoro.



Yuji said:


> Not the same thing at all, Shanks can be explained away by very early story, the editor told Oda to put it in, Shanks did it to inspire Luffy or he was forced into a choice between saving Luffy or losing his arm.
> 
> Mihawk has no such explanations, failing to cut steel with his flying slash happened in the only place Mihawk has feats to speak of.
> 
> ...



This panel has been argued to death man. Unless you believe that all of these slashes he sent at Luffy in Marineford were equal to the iceburg cut and the Jozu slash your argument is just unbelievably ignorant honestly. And there are so many alternate explanations for this statement too that make way more sense. But hey if you want to believe that the guy who evidently surpassed pre-skip Zoro both physically and spiritually is going allout against an ant like Luffy while also being able to easily keep up with a Yonko commander then all the power to you.


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## CaptainCommander (May 9, 2020)

Would not surprise me if Mihawk got the title by hunting down and defeating Ray. Question is how long did it take him and how old he was.


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## Fujitora (May 9, 2020)

Turrin said:


> If Raleigh’s main fighting style is swordsmanship then Mihawk wins as Raleigh never achieved Black Blade like Mihawk and is the inferior swordsman. If Raleigh has another style of combat then it could be different


Roger has no black blade, i guess he is inferior to mihawk too then? I dont get this argument at all.



Gomu said:


> I'm not even a Mihawk stan, I'm a logic stan. Rayleigh would have been the Strongest Swordsman in his era and now, as Whitebeard was as well. There was no hint or mention of that being what Rayleigh was, only that he was "Dark King" which is his epitaph more than an actual title.
> 
> Who cares if he got his title because of that, he would still have been called the Strongest Swordsman by someone who knew about him. He was not, there was no mention of him being such, you're acting as though Rayleigh is not still alive, him going into hiding has nothing to do with him having a title. It's implied that WB hadn't fought anyone of note since Marineford within the span of the Great Age of Piracy and yet he kept his title of "World's Strongest Man" and yet, Rayleigh has no such title, he would have had such a title if Oda gave it to him.
> 
> ...


Kaido isnt 70 what the hell are you on about? He calls big mom who is 68 an old hag, and whitebeard an old man. It was revealed in the ace novel that he is from the same gen as shanks. He looked to be about the same age as oden back then and oden was like mid 30s. He should be around the age of akainu if not a bit younger.


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## Gomu (May 9, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Kaido isnt 70 what the hell are you on about? He calls big mom who is 68 an old hag, and whitebeard an old man. It was revealed in the ace novel that he is from the same gen as shanks. He looked to be about the same age as oden back then and oden was like mid 30s. He should be around the age of akainu if not a bit younger.


You obviously didn't read the entire post... Otherwise you would have seen something.

*entire thread


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## Fujitora (May 9, 2020)

Gomu said:


> You obviously didn't read the entire post... Otherwise you would have seen something.
> 
> *entire thread


Did someone correct you before me?


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## Ekkologix (May 9, 2020)

imma be honest rayleigh didnt have that much competition on his prime days. I mean who was a first mate at his time thats actually strong enough to push him to extreme lol. Everyone back then competed with roger (wb, rocks, shiki wtc..) but rayleigh didnt really get much to do in comparison.

I must say Mihawk extreme diffs if this was mihawks prime and by the time zoro beats mihawk, zoro will have to be decently above rayleigh level to be renowned as the world strongest swordsman ever.

both mihawk and rayleigh are almost semi-featless so there is really no right or wrong answers here yet lol. It could be a 5 day battle where mihawk wins by hair gap and they both fall on the ground.


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## Gomu (May 9, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Did someone correct you before me?


Read the thread and figure it out.


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## Fujitora (May 9, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Read the thread and figure it out.


No i wont, bascially i dont have to so i wont. If youre being a dick about it, i wont even more. Have a good day/night.


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## Turrin (May 9, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Roger has no black blade, i guess he is inferior to mihawk too then? I dont get this argument at all.


In Swordsmanship, you bet


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## Gomu (May 9, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> No i wont, bascially i dont have to so i wont. If youre being a dick about it, i wont even more. Have a good day/night.


A dick about it? So you're forgoing reading a thread with the information necessary to confirm how I feel about a subject that you called me out about, just because you THINK I'm being a dick, despite the fact that reading it would give you a clearer understanding on my stance. Yeah, you have a good day/night too.

I don't know sir, that seems like more of a dick move than what I've done, especially when all you need to read is three pages of context.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dunno (May 9, 2020)

Turrin said:


> In Swordsmanship, you bet


And perhaps in CoA as well.


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## Turrin (May 9, 2020)

Dunno said:


> And perhaps in CoA as well.


Maybe.

Way I see it is Roger is probably an S-Class Swordsman, but Mihawk is S+. Roger likely has other skills though which take him beyond Mihawk.


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## Fujitora (May 9, 2020)

Turrin said:


> In Swordsmanship, you bet


I agree with you friend.



Gomu said:


> A dick about it? So you're forgoing reading a thread with the information necessary to confirm how I feel about a subject that you called me out about, just because you THINK I'm being a dick, despite the fact that reading it would give you a clearer understanding on my stance. Yeah, you have a good day/night too.
> 
> I don't know sir, that seems like more of a dick move than what I've done, especially when all you need to read is three pages of context.


My bad, i just didnt get what you were saying and got frustrated when you told me to reread everything ( i assumed you meant the entire thread instead of just your post), fasting really does a number on your mood haha.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gomu (May 9, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> My bad, i just didnt get what you were saying and got frustrated when you told me to reread everything ( i assumed you meant the entire thread instead of just your post), fasting really does a number on your mood haha.


That's all I wanted man, just read. When you read, you understand.


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## TheWiggian (May 9, 2020)

Gomu said:


> A dick about it? So you're forgoing reading a thread with the information necessary to confirm how I feel about a subject that you called me out about, just because you THINK I'm being a dick, despite the fact that reading it would give you a clearer understanding on my stance. Yeah, you have a good day/night too.
> 
> I don't know sir, that seems like more of a dick move than what I've done, especially when all you need to read is three pages of context.



i wouldnt even read a single post that exceeds this lenght ^


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## Gomu (May 9, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> i wouldnt even read a single post that exceeds this lenght ^


I mean, that's your thought process, but if a post has a good amount of information and can teach me something, there's no problem.


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## Nox (Jun 2, 2020)

Rayleigh's status in his Prime is compared if not hinted to be in the region of Old WB. Mihawk acknowledged Old WB stood above all and _wished_ to test himself against him. You're lying to yourself if you believe Mihawk's gravitas is above Rayleigh. Especially when Mihawk states PK aka Conquering the Grandline is far greater than acquiring WSS. Outside Shiki and Roger, I have yet to see a swordsman beyond Rayleigh. Will give Mihawk the benefit and say he pushes for an Extreme Diff Loss given his swordsmanship.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Six (Jun 2, 2020)

Prime Ray any day of the week.


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## Gomu (Jun 2, 2020)

Nox said:


> Rayleigh's status in his Prime is compared if not hinted to be in the region of Old WB. Mihawk acknowledged Old WB stood above all and _wished_ to test himself against him. You're lying to yourself if you believe Mihawk's gravitas is above Rayleigh. Especially when Mihawk states PK aka Conquering the Grandline is far greater than acquiring WSS. Outside Shiki and Roger, I have yet to see a swordsman beyond Rayleigh. Will give Mihawk the benefit and say he pushes for an Extreme Diff Loss given his swordsmanship.


Except, Rayleigh also wasn't the Pirate King. It's like saying Zoro is superior to Luffy just because of proximity. Furthermore, he's WSS, and Rayleigh is not, and if you don't think that. Why would he have the title if Rayleigh also focused on Swordsmanship? Either Rayleigh would have had to have been outclassed by Mihawk (this is speculative) or Rayleigh denounced the title, which makes no sense. People take Mihawk's words too seriously.

You'd also have to show me where it was stated that Rayleigh was in the same class with Old WB considering he feats WB performed compared to Rayleigh, that while strong, Rayleigh didn't do anything significant except keep him (Kizaru) away from the SHs.


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## doms777 (Jun 2, 2020)

Honestly, I could see either one of them taking this..


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## Nox (Jun 2, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Except, Rayleigh also wasn't the Pirate King. It's like saying Zoro is superior to Luffy just because of proximity. Furthermore, he's WSS, and Rayleigh is not, and if you don't think that. Why would he have the title if Rayleigh also focused on Swordsmanship? Either Rayleigh would have had to have been outclassed by Mihawk (this is speculative) or Rayleigh denounced the title, which makes no sense. People take Mihawk's words too seriously. You'd also have to show me where it was stated that Rayleigh was in the same class with Old WB considering he feats WB performed compared to Rayleigh, that while strong, Rayleigh didn't do anything significant except keep him away from the SHs.



And who said he was? I stated Rayleigh was compared to Old WB. A man whose strength prior to its decimation by injury and underlying disease was stated as PK (in waiting). A title which has been used to reference an individual who has risen above all Emperors and Admirals. Mihawk ownership of the WSS is a reflection of what exactly? Roger/Shiki is swordsmen and I don't see anyone arguing for Mihawk's superiority. Your acting like Mihawk's title was given to him during the height of Roger Pirates. There is an entire whole year where Roger Pirates disbanded and disappeared into obscurity prior to Roger's execution. You want speculative, with the most dominant swordsmen missing during this period, Mihawk obtained his. However, that isn't the point of this argument. You asked me for confirmation. Here's Garp reaffirming Rayleigh (whom he'd not seen in 24 years) threat. Kizaru himself mentioned he required preparation to confront him. However, Rayleigh later reaffirms against Kizaru he no longer has the strength of his youth Rayleigh's appearance was cause of concern that required a FA's attention





In contrast this is Mihawk. As I type this he is being hunted down like a regular dog alongside other Warlords. I don't doubt Mihawk swordsmanship is superior to about everyone we have seen. But don't even act like their portrayals are the same.


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## Gomu (Jun 2, 2020)

Nox said:


> And who said he was? I stated Rayleigh was compared to Old WB. A man whose strength prior to its decimation by injury and underlying disease was stated as PK (in waiting). A title which has been used to reference an individual who has risen above all Emperors and Admirals. Mihawk ownership of the WSS is a reflection of what exactly? Roger/Shiki is swordsmen and I don't see anyone arguing for Mihawk's superiority. Your acting like Mihawk's title was given to him during the height of Roger Pirates. There is an entire whole year where Roger Pirates disbanded and disappeared into obscurity prior to Roger's execution. You want speculative, with the most dominant swordsmen missing during this period, Mihawk obtained his. However, that isn't the point of this argument. You asked me for confirmation. Here's Garp reaffirming Rayleigh (whom he'd not seen in 24 years) threat. Kizaru himself mentioned he required preparation to confront him. However, Rayleigh later reaffirms against Kizaru he no longer has the strength of his youth Rayleigh's appearance was cause of concern that required a FA's attention
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's talking about Roger's Era moreso than the strength relative to WB, though. He is a legend, and he is exceptionally powerful. But again, all he did with Kizaru (and he even states himself that he hadn't been fighting or training for a long time) was fend him off (which you acknowledge). There was nothing telling that he could actually defeat Kizaru if there was an actual fight, whereas WB almost killed Sakazuki.


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## Nox (Jun 2, 2020)

Gomu said:


> That's talking about Roger's Era moreso than the strength relative to WB, though. He is a legend, and he is exceptionally powerful. But again, all he did with Kizaru (and he even states himself that he hadn't been fighting or training for a long time) was fend him off (which you acknowledge). There was nothing telling that he could actually defeat Kizaru if there was an actual fight, whereas WB almost killed Sakazuki.



Did you purposeful chose to ignore the part I mentioned 24 years. Whitebeard had been active for the last 24 years operating as an Emperor. Rayleigh was a retired gambling alcoholic well into his 70s. Neither Garp not Kizaru had seen him in this duration THUS couldn't attest to his level. Hence each showing their respective apprehension. Garp suggesting caution and Kizaru expressing concern. Rayleigh later reiterates our suspicion.  Which is that years of inactivity, old age and retirement had depleted his level. Also Rayleigh states he cannot save the Strawhats AND fight Kizaru. This is fundamentally different than I cannot almost kill an Admiral. Especially when said battle constitutes several PX models and a Haki wielding marine rampaging through the vicinity. This thread is about Prime Rayleigh not Old Rayleigh. The one who Garp and Kizaru were apprehensive about.


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## Gomu (Jun 2, 2020)

Nox said:


> Did you purposeful chose to ignore the part I mentioned 24 years. Whitebeard had been active for the last 24 years operating as an Emperor. Rayleigh was a retired gambling alcoholic well into his 70s. Neither Garp not Kizaru had seen him in this duration THUS couldn't attest to his level. Hence each showing their respective apprehension. Garp suggesting caution and Kizaru expressing concern. Rayleigh later reiterates our suspicion.  Which is that years of inactivity, old age and retirement had depleted his level. Also Rayleigh states he cannot save the Strawhats AND fight Kizaru. This is fundamentally different than I cannot almost kill an Admiral. Especially when said battle constitutes several PX models and a Haki wielding marine rampaging through the vicinity. This thread is about Prime Rayleigh not Old Rayleigh. The one who Garp and Kizaru were apprehensive about.


OK. So when you can show evidence that he was actually the strongest Swordsman of his era (and this is an official title seen by the WG, not just some bullshit title like World's Strongest Creature) that Mihawk had to earn. So either he has enough skill to beat those of the old era (WB still has his title 22 years before the post skip) or Mihawk had to take it away from him, whichever you want.

But his title means something more than what Rayleigh's title and feats mean right now. So until those feats are shown, I'm going with Mihawk. Extreme diff mind you. But you can't use "he was as strong as Old WB's level" because Old WB was still considered the World's Strongest Man, not Rayleigh.


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## Nox (Jun 2, 2020)

Gomu said:


> OK. So when you can show evidence that he was actually the strongest Swordsman of his era (and this is an official title seen by the WG, not just some bullshit title like World's Strongest Creature) that Mihawk had to earn. So either he has enough skill to beat those of the old era (WB still has his title 22 years before the post skip) or Mihawk had to take it away from him, whichever you want.
> 
> *But his title means something more than what Rayleigh's title and feats mean right now*. So until those feats are shown, I'm going with Mihawk. Extreme diff mind you. But you can't use "he was as strong as Old WB's level" because Old WB was still considered the World's Strongest Man, not Rayleigh.



I am either being trolled or you are purposefully trying to rack up word count. In no shape or form have I stated Rayleigh was the Strongest Swordsman. Infact on multiple occasions I've stated by virtue of his swordsmanship Mihawk pushes for Extreme Diff and has swordsmanship superior to anyone we've seen. However, I am also cognizant enough to acknowledge there's been swordsmen who've received a claim on a level which supersedes most if not all strength levels. If its not inconceivable that Roger, Shiki or Whitebeard could defeat Mihawk. I don't know why its controversial that I am rating a swordsman whose PRIME has been compared to Old WB. That is his overall threat level as a combatant, legend or character is on par as acknowledged by 2 separate characters. Whitebeard status as WSM started from a time he was considered the only man capable of matching Roger. And continued well into his Old age where his strength even diminished but is still above most humans. This manga is littered with people from Roger's Generation letting us know they've grown weaker. If Rayleigh's best form was compared to Whitebeard's second best why would he have the WSM title? It doesn't change that 2nd best version > 99% of most humans. *What Feats? Do you realize Old Rayleigh has better feats? *We're obviously getting nowhere here


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## Gomu (Jun 2, 2020)

Nox said:


> I am either being trolled or you are purposefully trying to rack up word count. In no shape or form have I stated Rayleigh was the Strongest Swordsman. Infact on multiple occasions I've stated by virtue of his swordsmanship Mihawk pushes for Extreme Diff and has swordsmanship superior to anyone we've seen. However, I am also cognizant enough to acknowledge there's been swordsmen who've received a claim on a level which supersedes most if not all strength levels. If its not inconceivable that Roger, Shiki or Whitebeard could defeat Mihawk. I don't know why its controversial that I am rating a swordsman whose PRIME has been compared to Old WB. That is his overall threat level as a combatant, legend or character is on par as acknowledged by 2 separate characters. Whitebeard status as WSM started from a time he was considered the only man capable of matching Roger. And continued well into his Old age where his strength even diminished but is still above most humans. This manga is littered with people from Roger's Generation letting us know they've grown weaker. If Rayleigh's best form was compared to Whitebeard's second best why would he have the WSM title? It doesn't change that 2nd best version > 99% of most humans. *What Feats? Do you realize Old Rayleigh has better feats? *We're obviously getting nowhere here


I never stated that he could not have beaten him, though. Extreme diff means it can go either way when I say it, otherwise it wouldn't be extreme diff. The reason why I say that Mihawk wins is because of his title, and his skill. Rayleigh has not shown the same skill, though he has done what he has against Kizaru, Kizaru is also not stated to be the "strongest swordsman", so in a contest of skill within swordsmanship, there should be no one that can beat Mihawk unless otherwise shown and stated. Now, the only reason I state he can beat Rayleigh is that again, Rayleigh doesn't have this title nor these feats. I also didn't state Mihawk could not be defeated by the characters you're talking about, however, the characters that you are talking about were a match for ROGER who is considered the strongest character upon his death. Am I saying Mihawk can beat Roger, I'd state that Roger wins Extreme Diff because of his feats and his portrayal as well as his title because that's what Oda seems to be conveying. I have no problem stating when Mihawk wins and loses, but you're using a character, who was not only subordinate to the person the fanfare is usually about, but also doesn't have the best showings compared to him. So I don't really know what you want from me.


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## The crazy hacker (Jun 5, 2020)

Prime Rayleigh is as strong as Zoro is at EoS and Zoro will be > Mihawk

Prime Rayleigh with Very High diff


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## silversrayleigh (Oct 16, 2021)

Irene said:


> No restrictions .
> 
> Who do you think wins this duel ?


I know that based on my name I seem biased, but I swear I'm not!
Rayleigh was compared to the likes of Roger and WB, and I think he wins Extreme Diff vs Mihawk. 
I will start saying that imo, Shanks can beat Mihawk (you may think that has nothing to do with this but wait). And I think that rn, Shanks is at the level of Prime Rayleigh, or a little bit weaker. I really do think Rayleigh>=Shanks>Mihawk.
Being compared to Roger and WB just shows how godly you are, and there's no confirmation that Mihawk has Conq. Haki, while Rayleigh has all the 3 types. An old Rayleigh kept up with Kizaru (imagine a Prime Rayleigh), while Mihawk has not so many feats. 
Rayleigh is faster, has a better Haki, stopped Marco with just one finger of haki, for me, Prime Rayleigh wins.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## trance (Oct 16, 2021)

mihawk extreme diff

Reactions: Funny 1


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## oiety (Oct 16, 2021)

Well, ACOC has been introduced now, but it's still quite useless because it's almost certain that both of them have it.
I'll say Mihawk extreme diff.


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## Mihawk (Oct 16, 2021)

It really might be:

Shanks~Mihawk>=Prime Rayleigh or
Prime Rayleigh~Shanks~Mihawk
Mihawk>=Shanks~Prime Rayleigh
Shanks>=Mihawk~Prime Rayleigh

I see all 3 being relatively close, and certainly being on the same level.

With as little as we know about either of them, going with extreme-diff either way.

Though personally I'm leaning to Mihawk with a slight edge, of course. It would make more sense for Zoro to have surpassed Mihawk _after _surpassing Prime Rayleigh as a benchmark and the new right hand of the new Pirate King. Mihawk won't be his opponent for that match up, as I see Shiryu fulfilling that role on Raftel. But Mihawk can be his final goal/opponent he might be fought after. Hence, he can be slightly better.


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## Captain Altintop (Oct 16, 2021)

Definitely *Mihawk*, but with *extreme *(_mid_) diff. Roughly on equal terms.

I don't see Yonko/Admirals (bar Fuji) and special top tier fighters below Rayleigh ...


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## Eustathios (Oct 16, 2021)

Normally, I'd place Rayleigh slightly above, but Mihawk's portrayal as Zoro's engame benchmark makes me hesitate.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Van Basten (Oct 17, 2021)

Mihawk extreme diff (middle to high.)



Gomu said:


> But again, what is "Prime" here, because Kaido and Big Mom are pushing 70 years old, and yet they are stronger than they were 20 years before the current arc. You can't use "Prime" as an understanding of strength, especially when 24 years prior, Mihawk was making a name for himself the same as Shanks and Shanks benefits more from fighting Mihawk than Mihawk fighting Shanks.


Kaido is 59 years old. A year older than Kizaru.


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## Perrin (Oct 17, 2021)

Think luffy said WSS was the least needed to be his right hand man as PK so giving it to rayleigh

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Typhon (Oct 17, 2021)

We stan Rayleigh


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## Strobacaxi (Oct 17, 2021)

Perrin said:


> Think luffy said WSS was the least needed to be his right hand man as PK so giving it to rayleigh


He said WSS was the least needed to be in his crew, not to be the right hand man

So how about it, you giving Usopp the win vs Mihawk too?


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## deltaniner (Oct 17, 2021)

Mihawk extreme-diffs.


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## Perrin (Oct 17, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> He said WSS was the least needed to be in his crew, not to be the right hand man
> 
> So how about it, you giving Usopp the win vs Mihawk too?


Hm. Did he mean his crew once he had become PK? If so EoS Usopp vs Mihawk.
Gosh. Maybe. If they start far enough away. But I’m less confident than usopp vs kizaru for some reason.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Strobacaxi (Oct 17, 2021)

Perrin said:


> If so EoS Usopp vs Mihawk.
> Gosh. Maybe. If they start far enough away.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Perrin (Oct 17, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


>


Let’s reconvene on that matchup in six years.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Strobacaxi (Oct 17, 2021)

Perrin said:


> Let’s reconvene on that matchup in six years.


Sure, but if you think the weakest SH will be in anyway a threat to a Yonko tier character you better get ready for a big dose of disappointment.


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## Impulse (Oct 17, 2021)

Too Hard to tell

It could probably go either way extreme diff 

But I would favour Rayleigh more times though


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## Mihawk (Oct 17, 2021)

Perrin said:


> Hm. Did he mean his crew once he had become PK? If so EoS Usopp vs Mihawk.
> Gosh. Maybe. If they start far enough away. But I’m less confident than usopp vs kizaru for some reason.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Perrin (Oct 17, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Sure, but *if you think the weakest SH will be in anyway a threat to a Yonko tier character you better get ready for a big dose of disappointment*.


As an Usopp fan I’m always ready Strob.
Always.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Seraphoenix (Oct 17, 2021)

Hard to tell with these non sky-splitting characters.

on the one hand Rayleigh was so weak he couldn’t get past Kizaru even if he was old. On the other Mihawk got retrenched, told to vacate his property and is currently running from VA Ronse and other fodder marines.

Reactions: Funny 7 | Lewd 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Perrin (Oct 17, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> Hard to tell with these non sky-splitting characters.
> 
> on the one hand Rayleigh was so weak he couldn’t get past Kizaru even if he was old. On the other Mihawk got retrenched, told to vacate his property and is currently running from VA Ronse and other fodder marines.


Savage

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Kamisori (Oct 17, 2021)

Mihawk extreme


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## Sherlōck (Oct 17, 2021)

EoS Zoro is basically Prime Ray.

So, Eos Zoro ~ Prime Ray >= Mihawk


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## deltaniner (Oct 17, 2021)

Sherlōck said:


> EoS Zoro is basically Prime Ray.


According to what?


Sherlōck said:


> So, Eos Zoro ~ Prime Ray >= Mihawk


According to what?


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## TheWiggian (Oct 18, 2021)

Finally Mihawk is getting a worthy challenger.

 

Mihawk will have to fight very hard, he's not facing your average guy that loses his arm against overgrown fishes. He is facing a haki god by portrayal that even in his old age is not desperate to beg the garosei for his own protection.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3


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## Kroczilla (Oct 18, 2021)

I'll go with Prime Raleigh on this. Better feats even while well out of his prime, far greater portrayal and gravitas about him etc. Mihawk needs better feat coz hype can only take one so far in life.

Reactions: Like 1


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