# MS obito vs nagato



## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

knowledge: none
mindset: utter blood lust kill the enemy
distance: 10m
restrictions: none

who wins?

I say nagato floors him. 

obito cant touch him then kamui wrap him. especially with no knowledge of ST which btw is an invisible not some instant repulsive force. 

without knowing the time lag of 5 seconds obito would be helpless. unlike the 6 paths of pain 

in those 5 seconds he got 5 other path abilities to help him out.


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## Joakim3 (May 25, 2015)

Obito attempts a _Kamui_ troll and gets promptly turned into pudding via a point blank _Shinra Tensei_

Assuming Izanagi comes into play, troll ambushes aren't working on Nagato as the man can sense

Moral of the story.... Obito gets stomped


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

ok we agree. just wondered if it was rinnegan obito people rate above nagato. despite him having no feats of using the rinnegan and staying a true 1 trick pony till the end 

bar juubito. nagato is stronger than every version of obito


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## Kai (May 25, 2015)

I'd rank Nagato above an MS Obito.

But there's no way Nagato is above Rinnegan Obito with jinchuuriki paths, who also self admittedly possessed a stronger Outer Path binding than Nagato.


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

well yes in that case I agree with the jinchuriki paths and being able to turn them into bijuu then yh clearly he is above 
I spoke out of school there

but MS obito is <<nagato


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## LostSelf (May 25, 2015)

Nagato wins.

My reasoning? Kai said so.

However, if more reasoning is needed, Joakim said it. Obito is trolled by Shinra Tensei. Not to mention the possibiity that Preta can absorb Kamui, but i am not going to enter that line.


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## RBL (May 25, 2015)

I think that MS obito is above Nagato (a little bit).

obito is seriously underrated


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## StickaStick (May 25, 2015)

Yeah, Nagato is on a tier firmly above MS Obito. Rinnegan Obito is above Nagato mainly for the reason Kia stated. Believe it or not Icegaze but your comment on Obito lacking Rinnegan feats (even if that's not entirely true) is a testament to how broken Rinnegan Obito was in theory given how plot was needed to hold him back. Just imagine if Obito had actually utilized Tendo + Kamui, among other things. Fucking broken. But I digress. 

As far as this thread is concerned I'm not sure any favors have been done Nagato here. If full knowledge was stipulated I would side with Nagato the vast majority of the time; mainly because the level of sensing ability he's demonstrated would make Obito's surprise warping attempts very difficult to pull off. However, with no knowledge I could easily envision a scenario where Obito goes under ground, pops up behind Nagato and Nagato, wanting to create distance, uses ST on a still intangible Obito which activates Nagato's 5-sec interval cool-down, opening Nagato up to something like this:
No????

I could see it going either way under this circumstance.


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## Trojan (May 25, 2015)

I think going with Obito is safer.


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## Icegaze (May 26, 2015)

you mean the obito who couldnt wrap torune and fuu without loosing an arm 

if obito comes up and ST fails because he is intangible. asura will be next. note asura is summoning mecha arms onto his body. Those would still be quicker than obito physical speed since obito loves to grab first before kamui 

also with no knowledge obito will have no idea nagato can attack a person behind him or under him without moving and
thats how obito dies


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## ARGUS (May 26, 2015)

Obito wins this solely due to izanagi 
a kamui feint forcing nagato to use ST as well as the fact that nagatos attacks would be completely inaffective during the izanagi time lapse means that obito wont have to worry about facing an ST when he can respawn right back again and warp nagato during his interval 

rinnegan obito with bijuus is a tier above nagato, 
Kamui + 6 Bijuus is far too much, even for nagato


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## Trojan (May 26, 2015)

> you mean the obito who couldnt wrap torune and fuu without loosing an arm



Torune has bugs all over his body, and Obito needs to touch him. There is no way around it.
Too bad Nagato does not have this ability.



> if obito comes up and ST fails because he is intangible. asura will be next. note asura is summoning mecha arms onto his body. Those would still be quicker than obito physical speed since obito loves to grab first before kamui



That's just ....
Nagato won't have time for that. He will need FTG speed on the same level as Minato to get out of the warping.



> also with no knowledge obito will have no idea nagato can attack a person behind him or under him without moving and
> thats how obito dies



Nor will Nagato know that his attacks will only go through Obito and it won't touch him.


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## Icegaze (May 26, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Obito wins this solely due to izanagi
> a kamui feint forcing nagato to use ST as well as the fact that nagatos attacks would be completely inaffective during the izanagi time lapse means that obito wont have to worry about facing an ST when he can respawn right back again and warp nagato during his interval
> 
> rinnegan obito with bijuus is a tier above nagato,
> Kamui + 6 Bijuus is far too much, even for nagato



nagato is a sensor. why woudl izanagi work?


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## ARGUS (May 26, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> nagato is a sensor. why woudl izanagi work?



being a sensor only helps him locate obito, 
when hes in izanagi mode, obito is practically invincible for a short amount of time, meaning that anything nagato dishes out during that time lapse would be useless 
and obito would respawn right back at him, warping him on his cool down

and the  time lapse for obitos izanagi is long, its 10 minutes seeing how he came back from konans justsu 
meaning that once obito activates it, nagato has no shot of keeping him at bay or protecting himsef


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## pluuuuffff (May 26, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Yeah, Nagato is on a tier firmly above MS Obito. Rinnegan Obito is above Nagato mainly for the reason Kia stated. Believe it or not Icegaze but your comment on Obito lacking Rinnegan feats (even if that's not entirely true) is a testament to how broken Rinnegan Obito was in theory given how plot was needed to hold him back. Just imagine if Obito had actually utilized Tendo + Kamui, among other things. Fucking broken. But I digress.
> 
> As far as this thread is concerned I'm not sure any favors have been done Nagato here. If full knowledge was stipulated I would side with Nagato the vast majority of the time; mainly because the level of sensing ability he's demonstrated would make Obito's surprise warping attempts very difficult to pull off. However, with no knowledge I could easily envision a scenario where Obito goes under ground, pops up behind Nagato and Nagato, wanting to create distance, uses ST on a still intangible Obito which activates Nagato's 5-sec interval cool-down, opening Nagato up to something like this:
> Link removed
> ...



He still has his Asura's Path arms, the same ones who caught Killer Bee. And since he has both sensor and Summonings to share vision... It will be difficult for Tobi to capture him.

However, Obito Rinnegan is levels ahead.


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## Icegaze (May 26, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> being a sensor only helps him locate obito,
> when hes in izanagi mode, obito is practically invincible for a short amount of time, meaning that anything nagato dishes out during that time lapse would be useless
> and obito would respawn right back at him, warping him on his cool down
> 
> ...



wait for real. I didn't know that. so u saying obito with 1 eye got 10 minutes of appearing behind his enemy for the lolz. 10 minutes of izanagi with 1 eye. jesus that's OP 

he rapes then


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## ARGUS (May 26, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> wait for real. I didn't know that. so u saying obito with 1 eye got 10 minutes of appearing behind his enemy for the lolz. 10 minutes of izanagi with 1 eye. jesus that's OP
> 
> he rapes then



yeah because unlike danzo he can actually use izanagi to a much higher extent 
only way nagato has a shot is if he can wipe obito off the face of the earth with a large scale ST before that comes to play otheriwse its GG


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## Mercurial (May 26, 2015)

Obito negs thanks to Kamui. He proceeds to warp behind Nagato and touch to warp him. Nagato reacts at the last second and activates Shinra Tensei. Let's say that Obito cannot react in time to phase, due to the surprise effect and the small window of time. Obito tanks the Shinra Tensei, then retries to warp Nagato. Asura Path or other Rinnegan powers are useless to defy Kamui phasing. Obito phases through everything and goes to touch Nagato; this time Obito feints to touch him, but phase immediately afterwards, making Nagato's Shinra Tensei go wasted. Then Obito effortlessy touch and warps him in the Kamui dimension, GG.


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## Icegaze (May 26, 2015)

so obito can tank ST 
but in any itachi vs nagato encounter somehow itachi with susanoo cannot survive it

gotta love how post are well thought out


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## Hexa (May 26, 2015)

I mean, Kakashi tanked ST three times.


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## UchihaX28 (May 26, 2015)

I'd consider Nagato winning more times than not thanks to Shared Vision which allows him to detect any of Obito's attempts of using Izanagi/ Ranged Jutsu.


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## Mercurial (May 26, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so obito can tank ST
> but in any itachi vs nagato encounter somehow itachi with susanoo cannot survive it
> 
> gotta love how post are well thought out



What are you talking about, this must be your fanfiction as I never said that Itachi with Susanoo cannot survive Nagato's Shinra Tensei (bar CST, obviously). Also, the best part is that as canonically Kakashi said fighting the Deva Path, the Shinra Tensei it's not a shockwave, but a real gravitational push; what hurts its not the push but the effect of the push itself, that make you hurt against rocks, ground or walls with great power. So Obito could actually phase after the Shinra Tensei before he is stomped on the ground (or the surrounding enviroment) avoiding most of the damage. Also Shinra Tensei damages standing objects that try to resist more than human bodies that are hit: Pain's Shinra Tensei completely destroyed Kakashi's Doton: Doryuheki, making it in pieces, but Kakashi's body wasn't hurt that bad; I don't think anyone would argue that Kakashi's body is tougher than a jutsu that he uses especially to defend his body, that would not be logical. So either way Obito survives Shinra Tensei and negs Nagato or tanks it and negs Nagato after.



Hexa said:


> I mean, Kakashi tanked ST three times.



It's not like Kakashi it's not a very tough character, he tanked Kakuzu's Doton: Domu enhanced kick that made him fly away destroying some giant trees with the impact, remember that a Domu enhanced punch destroyed a giant steel door and usually between a punch and a kick from the same person the kick will be always stronger. Also Kakashi tanked three Shinra Tensei, while Choza, a man who could jump through Asuma's Katon: Haisekisho tanking it like a boss, was completely KO'd after just one. Kakashi also parried a direct physical hit from a V2 jinchuriki, as well as Gai did, but well that's more strength than durability I guess.


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## Icegaze (May 26, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> What are you talking about, this must be your fanfiction as I never said that Itachi with Susanoo cannot survive Nagato's Shinra Tensei (bar CST, obviously). Also, the best part is that as canonically Kakashi said fighting the Deva Path, the Shinra Tensei it's not a shockwave, but a real gravitational push; what hurts its not the push but the effect of the push itself, that make you hurt against rocks, ground or walls with great power. So Obito could actually phase after the Shinra Tensei before he is stomped on the ground (or the surrounding enviroment) avoiding most of the damage. Also Shinra Tensei damages standing objects that try to resist more than human bodies that are hit: Pain's Shinra Tensei completely destroyed Kakashi's Doton: Doryuheki, making it in pieces, but Kakashi's body wasn't hurt that bad; I don't think anyone would argue that Kakashi's body is tougher than a jutsu that he uses especially to defend his body, that would not be logical. So either way Obito survives Shinra Tensei and negs Nagato or tanks it and negs Nagato after.



so CST GG then. ok i get you 

or itachi could use susanoo to break his fall. but somehow that wont work against CST. so why would phasing?




> It's not like Kakashi it's not a very tough character, he tanked Kakuzu's Doton: Domu enhanced kick that made him fly away destroying some giant trees with the impact, remember that a Domu enhanced punch destroyed a giant steel door and usually between a punch and a kick from the same person the kick will be always stronger. Also Kakashi tanked three Shinra Tensei, while Choza, a man who could jump through Asuma's Katon: Haisekisho tanking it like a boss, was completely KO'd after just one. Kakashi also parried a direct physical hit from a V2 jinchuriki, as well as Gai did, but well that's more strength than durability I guess.




you mean the earth mask that he crushed right before. therefore no domu enhancement. like i said selective reading

rest was bla bla since no domu enhancement hit kakashi. but you know that; this begs the question. 

what were you trying to pull


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## LostSelf (May 26, 2015)

Kakshi said it isn't a shockwave. It's an invisible force that hits you back. Hence why things bounces off. Wich is the reason we don't see Nagato returning a Bijudama towards BSM Naruto. Because the push would make the bijuu bomb explode.

Also, Kakashi tanked a small Shinra Tensei. It's not like Shinra Tensei hasn't shown to be bigger and more powerful depending on the chakra used. Wich is canon with Boss Summon being sent flying way farther than Kakashi (That almost killed Choza, who wasn't taken out by a blast of Gedo Mazo powered up by the Bijuus). The same Kakashi that was stomped once Deva Path went serious.

I guess i read in the translation thread (Won't go there looking post per post to find it again) that ST IS a shockwave.

Also, who says Obito's Kamui cannot be absorbed. It's ninjutsu. Something that should be made of chakra.


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## Mercurial (May 26, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Kakshi said it isn't a shockwave. It's an invisible force that hits you back. Hence why things bounces off. Wich is the reason we don't see Nagato returning a Bijudama towards BSM Naruto. Because the push would make the bijuu bomb explode.
> 
> Also, Kakashi tanked a small Shinra Tensei. It's not like Shinra Tensei hasn't shown to be bigger and more powerful depending on the chakra used. Wich is canon with Boss Summon being sent flying way farther than Kakashi (That almost killed Choza, who wasn't taken out by a blast of Gedo Mazo powered up by the Bijuus). The same Kakashi that was stomped once Deva Path went serious.
> 
> ...



Kamui it's activated with chakra, not made of chakra. It's a dimensional hole, a distortion in the space-time, it's created by the chakra in the eye, it's not purely made of chakra. Preta Path absorbes ninjutsu because 99% they are chakra constructs (Rasengan, Raikiri, Susanoo and so on) or vitalyzed with chakra (for example a Suiton: Suiryodan made by controlling a source of water). Kakashi knew every power of the Six Paths granted by the Rinnegan, as he and Gai prepared counters to them (and Preta was certainly one of them, as Kakashi canonically talks about ninjutsu absorption when he fights the V2 jinchuriki controlled by Obito), yet when Obito, believed to be Madara Uchiha and possessing a Rinnegan, stops his Kamui on the Gedo Mazo, Kakashi doesn't think even for a second that Obito did use the Rinnegan chakra absorption power to stop the Kamui, on the opposite he, knowing about Preta Path, states that he would have never thought that Kamui could be stopped. As 1 MS Kakashi's Kamui worked even on Juubi Madara's Gudodama shield that nullifies any not senjutsu chakra infused ninjutsu, I think that's foolish to think that Nagato can do anything to stop Obito's Kamui warp. He wouldn't even make in time, anyway.


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## Icegaze (May 26, 2015)

he got that invisible replusive force that obito knows nothing about though

how is obito supposed to expect that nagato can not only attacking him while he is behind nagato but nagato need not move to flatten him

then again who knows obito could just straight up tank kamui. with all the durability feats he's got going for him


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## LostSelf (May 26, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kamui it's activated with chakra, not made of chakra. It's a dimensional hole, a distortion in the space-time, it's created by the chakra in the eye, it's not purely made of chakra. Preta Path absorbes ninjutsu because 99% they are chakra constructs (Rasengan, Raikiri, Susanoo and so on) or vitalyzed with chakra (for example a Suiton: Suiryodan made by controlling a source of water). Kakashi knew every power of the Six Paths granted by the Rinnegan, as he and Gai prepared counters to them (and Preta was certainly one of them, as Kakashi canonically talks about ninjutsu absorption when he fights the V2 jinchuriki controlled by Obito), yet when Obito, believed to be Madara Uchiha and possessing a Rinnegan, stops his Kamui on the Gedo Mazo, Kakashi doesn't think even for a second that Obito did use the Rinnegan chakra absorption power to stop the Kamui, on the opposite he, knowing about Preta Path, states that he would have never thought that Kamui could be stopped. As 1 MS Kakashi's Kamui worked even on Juubi Madara's Gudodama shield that nullifies any not senjutsu chakra infused ninjutsu, I think that's foolish to think that Nagato can do anything to stop Obito's Kamui warp. He wouldn't even make in time, anyway.



First of all this, the counter of Preta Path it's not Kamui, the counter for that path that has been talked all over the manga, even against Madara's Rinnegan, is Taijutsu. Wich Gai heavily counters.

Kakashi cannot think for a second that Obito absorbed the attack on Gedo Mazo because Preta Path is not ranged, and the hole he used was very big in order to do that.

I'll give you the point with Kamui working on the Godoudama. But no, it's not foolish at all to say Nagato can counter it. For once, he has Shinra Tensei, wich is faster and second, he can canonically sense when somebody is building chakra in their Sharingan in order to do something with enough time to take a nap before attacking. And considering how Obito needs to touch Nagato in order to warp him, Preta Path it's all that's needed to drain his chakra and prevent him from doing such. And that's something he can do in the blink of an eye, granted that Obito will make it easier for him just grabbing him.

Obito also has no knowledge. And even if that hurts Nagato quite a lot. By the time Obito figures out Nagato has a cooldown, the man could be dead.


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## StickaStick (May 26, 2015)

pluuuuffff said:


> He still has his Asura's Path arms, the same ones who caught Killer Bee. And since he has both sensor and Summonings to share vision... It will be difficult for Tobi to capture him.
> 
> However, Obito Rinnegan is levels ahead.


Asura Path's arms can be navigated around. All Obito has to do is turn intangible (keep in mind this completely erases his chakra presence) and wait until he is in a good position to grab Nagato, turn tangible, and then warp him; similar to what he attempted against Minato, except that Nagato doesn't process a FTG-level of speed needed in order to reliably escape.


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Asura Path's arms can be navigated around. All Obito has to do is turn intangible (keep in mind this completely erases his chakra presence) and wait until he is in a good position to grab Nagato, turn tangible, and then warp him; similar to what he attempted against Minato, except that Nagato doesn't process a FTG-level of speed needed in order to reliably escape.



to a chakra sensor like nagato wont that be easy to figure out though

especially if nagato is looking at him 

nagato would see him and cant sense his chakra. he would know ooops this guy has phased. especially after obito would have just walked through the first attack 

when he senses obito he will know obito is solid and can be hit

why cant a sensor do that? again a sensor with a jutsu obito has zero way to know when it will be used. 

if not for the 10 mins of izanagi where obito is god. he dies quite simply


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## Bonly (May 27, 2015)

Obito sucks Nagato up to box land eventually where Nagato spends his time using Deidara's arm and Asura's extra arms to do some... research


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## ueharakk (May 27, 2015)

yeah, don't see how obito wins this.

Nagato is a sensor and shared vision so obito isn't getting the drop on him, and he has an instant attack that's much stronger than deva's version which counters obito's CQ kamui.  Even if obito somehow did get a hand on Nagato, it's at best a double KO since nagato just grabs obito back and soul rips him.  Then there's the possibility of preta path stopping obito from even using kamui (since he has to grab nagato to do it) or the possibility of nagato simply trolling the jutsu with reverse summoning.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 27, 2015)

Kakashi tanking ST is irrelevant as he wasn't hit with one of the stronger Shinra Tensei... in fact that was a ST by a distanced God Realm getting chakra from a chakra deprived/emaciated Nagato. 

A Shinra Tensei from Nagato, not ET Nagato, will be much stronger especially if there's a lot of force applied to it. More so if this is a rejuvenated Nagato; unsure if the thread assumes Nagato is mobile or not. 

Izanagi can be sensed as Karin showed and Kamui attempts can be sensed too since it is an ocular power the chakra can be sensed. 
Shinra Tensei is a jutsu that no ocular power, or sensing power (except maybe Rikudou Senjutsu or the Rinnegan) can perceive. 

Obito is most likely going to attempt a Kamui troll, that's his only option to win. However that's more likely to be trolled by a very powerful Shinra Tensei. defeating Obito in the process. 

However Obito isn't stupid, he was taught the Rinnegan jutsu and had skill with them (hence his confidence with the Rinnegan). MS Obito would _know_ about the Rinnegan and he'd know that ST can troll him. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming that he knows Nagato can sense; Kurama suggested one's chakra changes when they're sensing and Obito will be able to see said change. 

I'm saying Obito will know of what will happen if he attempts a Kamui troll. Even then, I see him losing. What may happen is Obito manages to distract Nagato using Mokuton or Kamui ejections and manages to land a ST... but the moment Obito surfaces he's detectable. 

I reckon Obito would do that anyway because he expects a ST blast... he could use Kamui to make Nagato waste ST to ensure he has a 5 second window to use a Kamui troll (though this may not happen as the chakra may be sensed, as mentioned before).
However that's where things will go to hell. Obito still has to grab Nagato to warp him away with Kamui. 
Just by touching Nagato, Obito could be dead. By touching Nagato, the Kamui may never happen because of Preta Path which could be swiftly followed with Human Path (imagine Human Path followed by ST). Let's not forget that Demon Path can be activated quickly too, this includes the weapons that can be summoned.
Also it is likely that Nagato can summon the Outer Path stakes like Obito and Madara... just without the strong binding (going by the second page, the Rinnegan seemingly can see the chakra points of an individual, that's work noting). That's another thing to consider... especially since he seemed to be able to summon them not just from the palms.

Basically I'd say Nagato wins. There might be some times Obito could win, but that assumes CIS on Nagato forgetting abilities like sensing or other Paths.


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## Santoryu (May 28, 2015)

Tough one, but how does Nagato "get around" Kamui? He doesn't. He doesn't have a solid counter to it. The author established that the best counter to Kamui, is Kamui itself. During the battle against Obito, Kakashi explicitly states that he hadn't heard of anything being able to counter Kamui; the same Kakashi that fought against Pain. Obito lacks Nagato's firepower, but with Kamui, mokuton and inzagi at his disposal-he should be able edge this one.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 28, 2015)

Countering Kamui means getting by it when its done its thing. The Rinnegan provides users to prevent Kamui from doing its thing in the first place.


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## sanninme rikudo (May 28, 2015)

Nagato mops the floor with Obito. He teleports behind Nagato (since this is the only tactic that will dare to be debated) Nagato can sense kamui and strike back with an ST. When real force is applied behind it Obito is done for. If Obito even tries to warp him, a ST will be awaiting him regardless.


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## Clowe (May 29, 2015)

Obito takes this, Kamui phasing deals with with all of Nagato's attacks (Pass through ST shockwave, pass through CTS Rocks, or just teleport to safety before the pseudo moon is completed and teleport back when is safe, Kamui cannot be absorbed by preta since it's not a chakra construct like a rasengan or raikiri) In the event that Obito gets caught off guard, lets remember that unlike the Uchiha wannabe Danzo, Obito has Ten whole minutes of Izanagi with his one spare eye, TEN WHOLE MINUTES OF RESPAWN, even if Nagato is a sensor that only helps him locate Obito not evade him, eventually Obito Kamui feints (pretends he is going to attack while instead he is just waiting for his opponent to attack him and phase, aka passes through the ST shockwave) and warps Nagato during the cooldown, Kamui GG. 

Did I mention Obito has full knowledge on Nagato? while Nagato on the other hand may know about Kamui like Konan, but not about Izanagi.


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## sanninme rikudo (May 29, 2015)

If Nagato uses the sphere -shaped ST, Obito can't phase through it depending on how close he is to Nagato. Rather, he is going to be forced to teleport completely which takes time and   in order to teleport he  needs to remain tangible. That's  whole phasing and warping tactic is basically Obito's entire strategy which gets foiled by ST.


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## StickaStick (May 30, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> *If Nagato uses the sphere -shaped ST, Obito can't phase through it depending on how close he is to Nagato.* Rather, he is going to be forced to teleport completely which takes time and   in order to teleport he  needs to remain tangible. That's  whole phasing and warping tactic is basically Obito's entire strategy which gets foiled by ST.


Why do you say that?


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