# Doflamingo vs DFless Admirals



## Finalbeta (Nov 20, 2015)

Round 1: Aokiji
Round 2: Kizaru 
Round 3: Fujitora 
Round 4: Akainu 

Heals after each fight, if he loses he can continue


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## ShadoLord (Nov 21, 2015)

If it's a gauntlet, he stops at Kizaru. 

Individually, he can beat any of the Df-less Admirals.


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## trance (Nov 21, 2015)

IMO, Doffy is still below a Devil Fruit-restricted Admiral, though not by much. Kuzan defeats him after a hard fight.


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## barreltheif (Nov 21, 2015)

Doffy clears comfortably.


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## Extravlad (Nov 21, 2015)

Akainu kills him.


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## Amol (Nov 21, 2015)

Doflamingo wins all matches by very High diff.
It is insult to his character to suggest that Admirals without their main power source can defeat him.


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## Sherlōck (Nov 21, 2015)

Doflamingo still loses horribly.


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## Extravlad (Nov 21, 2015)

> It is insult to his character to suggest that Admirals without their main power source can defeat him.


It is insult to Admirals to suggest that Doflamingo can put them down when WB's island splitter move couldn't.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Nov 21, 2015)

Amol said:


> Doflamingo wins all matches by very High diff.
> It is insult to his character to suggest that Admirals without their main power source can defeat him.


tfw


Extravlad said:


> It is insult to Admirals to suggest that Doflamingo can put them down when WB's island splitter move couldn't.



I agree with vlad for once


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## Bernkastel (Nov 21, 2015)

Doflamingo should win all of them with very high diff.

Admirals are insanely hard to put down but they'll fall eventually.


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## Extravlad (Nov 21, 2015)

I don't see DD having the offensive power to put down an Admiral at all.

His moves weren't really that powerful, Law and Luffy tanked a shit tons of those.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 21, 2015)

Doflamingo should take down any of them with a lot of trouble. The admirals are still monsters in terms of physical stats and Haki, but they're losing around half of their power.


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## Raiden34 (Nov 21, 2015)

Do you know that Admirals have extremely powerful DF powers right ? No one going to say they lack Haki or physical ability, but clearly they need their DF power to take down some one like Doflamingo. Heck, they need that power for even someone weaker than Doflamingo, like Law for example.

Even Fujitora, who should've been a swordsman, he used his DF power more than his swordsmanship.


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## Magentabeard (Nov 21, 2015)

Beats Fujitora loses to the rest.


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## gold ace (Nov 21, 2015)

Extravlad said:


> I don't see DD having the offensive power to put down an Admiral at all.
> 
> His moves weren't really that powerful, Law and Luffy tanked a shit tons of those.



That's cuz Law and Luffy are both fucking tanks. That speaks for there endurability, not Doffys attack power.


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## Dunno (Nov 21, 2015)

The Admirals are probably somewhere around G4 Luffy in terms of physical stats. They lack the proficiency Luffy has in physical fights though, but they should still be able to defeat Doflamingo with high diff or so. Fujitora maybe a little easier since he seems to have a secondary fighting style in his swordsmanship.


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## Raiden34 (Nov 21, 2015)

If anyone think that any Admiral can do this with only Base Stats... Lmao.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 21, 2015)

Erkan12 said:


> Do you know that Admirals have extremely powerful DF powers right ? No one going to say they lack Haki or physical ability, but clearly they need their DF power to take down some one like Doflamingo. Heck, they need that power for even someone weaker than Doflamingo, like Law for example.
> 
> Even Fujitora, who should've been a swordsman, he used his DF power more than his swordsmanship.



I highly doubt the admirals would need their fruits to take down Law.


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## Raiden34 (Nov 21, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> I highly doubt the admirals would need their fruits to take down Law.



If Fujitora needed to use his DF against Law, then no admiral is going to beat him without their DF.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 21, 2015)

Erkan12 said:


> If Fujitora needed to use his DF against Law, then no admiral is going to beat him without their DF.



The admirals don't need their full power for many people, but they still use such in several instances. Akainu doesn't need to magma fist a fodder like Coby before the timeskip. Likewise, Fujitora doesn't need gravity to defeat Zoro. Using their full power just makes the situation much easier... 

Their Haki is too powerful compared to Law's, and the admirals won't get baited like Doflamingo did.


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## Extravlad (Nov 21, 2015)

> That's cuz Law and Luffy are both fucking tanks. That speaks for there endurability, not Doffys attack power.


No they're not fucking tanks, Doflamingo is more of a tank than either of thoe guys and the Admirals are far above Doflamingo when it comes to durability.


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## Datassassin (Nov 21, 2015)

There's a chance Kizaru could extreme-diff if he's given a sword, otherwise DD soundly beats them all.


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## savior2005 (Nov 21, 2015)

admirals win. most ppl say that base sabo could potentially beat doffy. I out base admirals considerably above base sabo.


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## Jossaff (Nov 21, 2015)

Doflamingo clears with High(low) - High diff ,  its pretty stupid to believe that admirals could thrash someone like Doflamingo without their fruis .


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## Captain Altintop (Nov 22, 2015)

DF Admiral should mid ( mid-high ) diff. Doflamingo.

DFless Admiral should be similar to Doflamingo, they rather beat him extreme diff.


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## Finalbeta (Nov 22, 2015)

DFless Admirals are not all on the same level 
It's just ridiculous to think that Akainu would need extreme diff to beat Aokiji without their fruits

Has even Aokiji ever punched in his life?


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## Shanks (Nov 22, 2015)

Finalbeta said:


> DFless Admirals are not all on the same level
> It's just ridiculous to think that Akainu would need extreme diff to beat Aokiji without their fruits
> 
> Has even Aokiji ever punched in his life?



The coloured trio have been portrayed as give or take even in all stats with certain admirals excelling in certain areas, such as Kizaru = speed and Akainu = strength, however, even with the differences, each admiral should still be able to keep up with each other, which is the result of the 10 days all-out battle between Akainu and Aokiji. 

Fujitora is a different story, however, he recently have his fruit, so his base stats should technically be on par with the C3 to be as strong as he is, currently.

There are some speculations on Akainu been stronger after the timeskip, but that is still just speculation.


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## rext1 (Nov 22, 2015)

DD has literally not a prayer in hell in either of these matchups!

He gets mid-diffed at most by any Admiral. 
A DF does not bequeath to you top-tier status. Enel has arguably the most destructive fruit of all time minus the Gura-Gura-no-mi yet he will never ascend to TT status simply because he lacks the physical strength, stamina, speed, haki, endurance to do so.

A top-tier is not created by their DF's. pre-TS BB despite gaining 2 hax-as-fuck DF's was not confident in his ability to fight Akainu(because he lacked the stats at that moment). Unless you're a mid or low tier I dont see DF's as "powering-up factors that elevate u above a tier youre currently on".

Generally DF's are a stylistic gamechanger in as far as they open up new tactical possibilities for a fighter(improved mobility like Kizaru, ability to shoot projectiles which increases range).
 IMO once u enter the echelons of the high-high tier and top tiers. If u simply dont possess the haki or physical stats to penetrate ur opponents defences, simply consuming a DF gifts u another multitude of ways to not be able to put-down ur opponent.

DD was not able to physically deal with the speed, agility and strength of G4 Luffy.
Theres no confirmation that G4 Luffy is a top tier level fighter. 
DD was literally being manhandled by a not-confirmed-top-tier-opponent - the degree to which he was being manhandled confirmed that they were on different levels of strength.
The fact that Law's evaluation of Kaido vs DD was that it would result in "Kaido mopping the floor with him". Is further testament that he lacks the stats to compete with top-tiers. DD vs Top tier would result in DD basically being overwhelmed.

DD vs DF-less Admiral = DD fighting people with top-tier stats.
DD cant compete with that - a serious Admiral will tear DD several assholes within the first nano-second.


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## gold ace (Nov 22, 2015)

rext1 said:


> DD has literally not a prayer in hell in either of these matchups!
> 
> He gets mid-diffed at most by any Admiral.
> A DF does not bequeath to you top-tier status. Enel has arguably the most destructive fruit of all time minus the Gura-Gura-no-mi yet he will never ascend to TT status simply because he lacks the physical strength, stamina, speed, haki, endurance to do so.
> ...



Please. DD gets mid diffed against an Admiral WITH his devil fruit .

Take away their main power and he wins.


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## rext1 (Nov 22, 2015)

gold ace said:


> Please. DD gets mid diffed against an Admiral WITH his devil fruit .
> 
> Take away their main power and he wins.



Theres no proof that Kuzan, Akainu and Fuji's speed, strength, endurance or stamina are augmented by their fruits.

With or without DF's that's what they'll utilise to beat the living shit out of DD.

There exist literally thousands of DF-users in the OP-verse. Only a handful are top-tier. What makes a top-tier DF user is not the DF but the base skillsets that exist underlying that. 
Giving a high tier a DF doesnt make him a top tier. As its not gonna make him any more likely to take a quake punch from WB, as its not gonna me him anymore likely to be able to deal with Kizaru's speed etc.

DD was shown to be incapable of dealing with G4 Luffy's strength, speed, agility etc.
The Admirals were never physically overpowered by WB and their ability to counter was virtually 1:1.
Unless u believe that in terms of raw stats G4 Luffy is literally tiers above the WSM. 
The Admirals overwhelm DD!

The only way you can make the argument that DD can deal with an Admirals raw base stats is to first assume that G4 Luffy >>> Old WB.
G4 Luffy must be already PK-tier + to be able to manhandle DD in such a manner, if indeed DD is assumed to be = or comparable to an Admiral physically.


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## barreltheif (Nov 22, 2015)

rext1 said:


> Theres no proof that Kuzan, Akainu and Fuji's speed, strength, endurance or stamina are augmented by their fruits.
> 
> With or without DF's that's what they'll utilise to beat the living shit out of DD.
> 
> ...




Terrible post. The admirals without their DFs would get stomped by WB.
Normally an admiral would mid diff Doffy. Without their DFs, he'll certainly win. His lethality and hax are simply vastly above theirs.


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## rext1 (Nov 22, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> Terrible post. The admirals without their DFs would get stomped by WB.
> Normally an admiral would mid diff Doffy. Without their DFs, he'll certainly win. His lethality and hax are simply vastly above theirs.



There is literally no evidence that anyone in the history of One Piece has ever been capable of no or low-diffing(which is what I would consider stomping to be) a solid top tier. Take away an Admirals DF and he is still top tier.
Akainu's DF does not amplify his physical strength. So he would stop WB's bisento just he like did before. 
Akainu's DF does not augment his endurance. So he would still take quake punches equally well.
Akainu's DF does not augment stamina. So he would still recover from those quakes and run through all opposition @ MF.
Akainu's DF does not improve reaction speed. So he would still counter & parry attacks as well as he did.
Akainu's DF does not amplify his CoA or CoO.
^These factors exist and are maintained independent of DF's.

Their vastly superior base stats are what distinguishes Admirals from DD. 
DF or no-DF, DD is not equipped to deal with this.

Enel, the argument could be made has the most hax, versatile & lethal DF in this manga's history. Yet he'd literally get no-diffed by an Admiral.
You and alot of posters on here are stuck on pre-TS, pre-MF thinking - that DF's alone are kingmakers and the concept of haki has not yet been introduced!!

Its heavily implied that Fuji and GB may have only recently acquired DF's after recruitment. Which means they were already identified as Admiral-tier without DF's.
This is a testament to their base stats & haki.
Doflamingo with DF is not worthy to be an Admiral.
GreenBull & Fuji without DF apparently were.

Fuji(minus DF) can already be assumed to be >> DD.


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## Gohara (Nov 22, 2015)

Doflamingo has the feats, portrayal, and skills to suggest that he's around Admiral level IMO.  So with that said:

1. Doflamingo wins with mid to high difficulty.

2. Doflamingo wins with mid to high difficulty.

3. Doflamingo wins with mid to high difficulty.

4. Doflamingo wins with mid to high (closer to high than mid) difficulty.


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## barreltheif (Nov 23, 2015)

rext1 said:


> There is literally no evidence that anyone in the history of One Piece has ever been capable of no or low-diffing(which is what I would consider stomping to be) a solid top tier. Take away an Admirals DF and he is still top tier.
> Akainu's DF does not amplify his physical strength. So he would stop WB's bisento just he like did before.
> Akainu's DF does not augment his endurance. So he would still take quake punches equally well.
> Akainu's DF does not augment stamina. So he would still recover from those quakes and run through all opposition @ MF.
> ...




Akainu got wrecked by a couple hits from a severely injured WB. Akainu can only fight WB because of the lethality and versatility of his DF. Without it, he has no hope of pushing WB to mid diff.
I don't know what definition of top tier you have, but admirals without their main fighting style are certainly not top tier.
It was never implied that Fujitora or any other admiral got their DF recently. You probably read a mistranslation of chapter 713. Regardless, Fujitora without his DF is certainly not on the level of any admiral we've seen.


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## Louis-954 (Nov 23, 2015)

Doflamingo all day. Haki alone is not enough to make up the deficit of losing their DF powers. You're basically cutting their balls off.


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## trance (Nov 23, 2015)

Finalbeta said:


> DFless Admirals are not all on the same level
> It's just ridiculous to think that Akainu would need extreme diff to beat Aokiji without their fruits
> 
> Has even Aokiji ever punched in his life?



Don't know what exactly is so ridiculous about scaling Kuzan to Sakazuki? It's not like Sakazuki has done anything to suggest he's far above his near equal in the physical department.


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## Shanks (Nov 23, 2015)

Like other members have already said in this thread, in order for someone to be ‘top tier’ (& not low, mid, blah top tier), they need to essentially have top tier stats in all categories. In my opinion, if the absolute top of one piece stats is 100, almost your stats need to be 90+ to be considered as top tier.

Take, for example, Akainu with his current devil fruit mastery, below would be my estimate:

•	Fire Power – 95/100
•	Combat versatility – 95/100
•	Speed – 90/100
•	Stamina – 98/100
•	CoA – 90/100
•	CoO – 90/100
•	Endurance – 95/100
•	Range – 99/100

If we remove his DF and essentially his 30 years of fighting experience with the devil fruit, below would be my guesstimate:

•	Fire Power – 80/100
•	Combat versatility – 50/100
•	Speed – 90/100
•	Stamina – 98/100
•	CoA – 90/100
•	CoO – 90/100
•	Endurance – 95/100
•	Range – 25/100


What does this mean? Most of his stats are still top tier, but not all and for someone to lose out of fire power, combat versatility and range that much, it certainly will reduce their fight capabilities significantly. Like someone above me already said, an Akainu without his DF that he spent decades to master would get mid diff (or even lower, depending on the version) by Whitebeard.

We haven’t even touch base on how strong awakening is and removing the fruit will remove awakening completely.


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## Amol (Nov 23, 2015)

Devil Fruits are major power source in One Piece. Pretending otherwise is foolish.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 23, 2015)

Josh said:


> Like other members have already said in this thread, in order for someone to be ?top tier? (& not low, mid, blah top tier), they need to essentially have top tier stats in all categories. In my opinion, if the absolute top of one piece stats is 100, almost your stats need to be 90+ to be considered as top tier.
> 
> Take, for example, Akainu with his current devil fruit mastery, below would be my estimate:
> 
> ...



How is Akainu's firepower so high compared to his Logia counterpart?
It should be a significant drop like his combat versatility.

And nothing points at Akainu having Conqueror's Haki. Even if he did, 90/100 is ridiculous when most of his focus has been shown to lie in Magu Magu no Mi. I also think Akainu is slower than Kizaru and Kuzan based on feats, though he seems to be physically stronger than both of them. 

If I recall correctly, most people thought Whitebeard (unrestricted) would low-diff or even stomp Base Akainu in one of the recent threads around here. However, I forgot the version of Whitebeard that was being discussed.


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## Shanks (Nov 23, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> How is Akainu's firepower so high compared to his Logia counterpart?
> It should be a significant drop like his combat versatility.
> 
> And nothing points at Akainu having Conqueror's Haki. Even if he did, 90/100 is ridiculous when most of his focus has been shown to lie in Magu Magu no Mi. I also think Akainu is slower than Kizaru and Kuzan based on feats, though he seems to be physically stronger than both of them.
> ...


I'm at the opinion that CoA haki goes hand it hand with DF mastery. Like for example, if Buggy have the Magma fruit for 30 years, he would not execute it as effectively without the same level of CoA.

Oh, so sorry about the Coc bit, meant to be CoO.

Well, Akainu reduced fire power would not be able to hurt WB much, while Akainu will still go down with 2 harder quake punches (assume healthy old WB), therefore low dif is reasonable.

Maybe 95 to 80 might be over estimated it abit, but you all get the idea.


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## Shanks (Nov 23, 2015)

Josh said:


> I'm at the opinion that CoA haki goes hand it hand with DF mastery. Like for example, if Buggy have the Magma fruit for 30 years, he would not execute it as effectively without the same level of CoA.



Then again we have guys like Enel who executed the amount of lighting far  more impressive than most DF users that use Haki...hmmm Oda really need to explain Haki more.

When Haki and how DF mastery work in OP is this vague, it usually leads to favortism and stupid arguments. Admiral wankers obviously will formulate how DF and base stats works in their mind to keep  Admirals at top tier while at the same time down playing Doflamingo significantly.


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## Sherlōck (Nov 23, 2015)

Doesn't really matter how much Akainu will lose cause Mingo's stat still isn't going to handle a candle to it. 

He doesn't have DC to hurt them significantly,durability to withstand their attack , not enough stamina as Admirals. 

Yes , its a big deal losing DF but ultimately it still doesn't matter.


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## Amol (Nov 23, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> Doesn't really matter how much Akainu will lose cause Mingo's stat still isn't going to handle a candle to it.
> 
> He doesn't have DC to hurt them significantly,durability to withstand their attack , not enough stamina as Admirals.
> 
> Yes , its a big deal losing DF but ultimately it still doesn't matter.


Please do remind me DC Admiral will have without their DFs seeing you are _so_ concerned about DD's DC(which is country level anyway).
Or which are those supposedly extremely high powered attacks they would _still _ have without their DFs which would required some absurd durability ?
I for some reason I can't  seems to remember any of such attack. Must have missed it in manga. They can only punch and kick here(surprise surprise).
Seeing someone like Ace could last for 5 days DD lasting for 7/8 days is not much farfetched idea.
So do explain how DD lacks in stamina department.
Not like fight would go for days considering there are no opposing elements here.
So that 'argument' is moot anyway.
Prove that besides Kizaru other Admirals have better speed than DD especially without their DF.
You can't.
Jozu had better physical strength than all Admirals. Nothing is stopping DD from having one or two stats better than them besides bias of course.
So yeah losing DF does actually matter in fight even if it doesn't matter in wanking.
[sp]  [/sp]


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## ~M~ (Nov 23, 2015)

They bleed like flamingo 

Doflamingo casual difficulty.


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## God Movement (Nov 23, 2015)

He loses to all of them


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## Kaiser (Nov 23, 2015)

They all lose to him. They require mid diff even with their devil fruit to defeat Doflamingo and time and time again, we see how important devil fruit counts at top tier level with things like awakening and they lot. They lose to much to be able to defeat someone like Doflamingo and his shit ton of hax and versatility


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Nov 23, 2015)

god movement is never wrong. always trust in what he says.


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## Amol (Nov 23, 2015)

We all love Corus, right? 
Here is what he thinks on this matter.


Coruscation said:


> *I don't think Akainu will win*. He most certainly has the physical strength + COA to heavily damage DD, but DD has so much more versatility. Awakening strings from all directions, flight, Parasite, string defenses (if they can stop dead a G3 punch like nothing, they should be able to stop a DF-less Akainu's punch relatively well). The biggest problem he'll have is properly damaging Akainu since his offense really wasn't all that in the end, what with Luffy taking a ton of hits and still going despite also wearing himself out with G4. He won't be getting up close and cutting his arm off like he did Law, that's for sure, so dealing enough damage to take Akainu out is going to be one hell of a task. There's probably some chance somewhere in there that Akainu manages to outlast DD what with the superior durability and endurance he has. But overall, Akainu's problem is that he's just at a lack of good tools here. He has good stats but not the abilities required to deal with a toolset as versatile as DD's in the hands of someone with such good stats of his own as DD.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Nov 23, 2015)

Amol said:


> Please do remind me DC Admiral will have without their DFs seeing you are _so_ concerned about DD's DC(which is country level anyway).


lol what
no one besides admirals and yonkous have anything near country level dc




> Or which are those supposedly extremely high powered attacks they would _still _ have without their DFs which would required some absurd durability ?
> I for some reason I can't  seems to remember any of such attack. Must have missed it in manga. They can only punch and kick here(surprise surprise).


> forgetting Kiz and Akainu stopped WB's bisento with 1 leg




> Prove that besides Kizaru other Admirals have better speed than DD especially without their DF.


Akainu dodged an enraged WB quake fist 



> Jozu had better physical strength than all Admirals. Nothing is stopping DD from having one or two stats better than them besides bias of course.
> *So yeah losing DF does actually matter in fight even if it doesn't matter in wanking.*
> [sp]  [/sp]



Lets also not forget the admirals haki is a tier or two above doffy's haki 
and who even denied the bolded part


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## killfox (Nov 23, 2015)

Idk if anyone said this but shouldn't everyone VA or higher have Rokushiki?

I can see a base Admiral taking Doffy with Rokushiki access. They would vastly surpass Lucci with its use.


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## Amol (Nov 23, 2015)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> lol what
> no one besides admirals and yonkous have anything near country level dc


Birdcage encased entire Dressrosa.
Pica who himself was km wide was just small part of it.
So think again.
And you managed to dodge my point without countering it.



> > forgetting Kiz and Akainu stopped WB's bisento with 1 leg


Both used their DFs for that.
Read again.



> Akainu dodged an enraged WB quake fist


So?
Is this supposed prove something?
Whitebeard is not a speedster and he was literally having heart attacks entire marineford.
Bravo Akainu dodged an attack from near dead old guy who was noted to have slower physical reactions due illness.




> Lets also not forget the admirals haki is a tier or two above doffy's haki


Prove it.
Jozu can hurt them fine. DD atleast has haki good enough as him.
That is more than enough haki he needs here.


> and who even denied the bolded part


Someone does.
I really wonder who.
Frankly this post wasn't even directed at you.
You by yourself decided to take it on yourself. Not that it matters of course.
You can't wake those who are pretending to be asleep, after all.
I done here.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 23, 2015)

Josh said:


> I'm at the opinion that CoA haki goes hand it hand with DF mastery. Like for example, if Buggy have the Magma fruit for 30 years, he would not execute it as effectively without the same level of CoA.
> 
> Oh, so sorry about the Coc bit, meant to be CoO.
> 
> ...



95 to 80 might be overestimating somewhat, but I do get what you mean. The admirals are definitely top tiers without their fruits, but they're losing around half of their power like combat versatility/firepower/range as you'd outlined beforehand. It's also fair to factor in the possible weaknesses they might show from lack of refined abilities in base, seeing they've been using the fruits for decades. I still see the base admirals beating characters like Current Luffy and possibly Yami Teach, but they'd lose to anyone stronger than that from my perspective. 

I wouldn't say I'm a downplayer of the admirals. Kuzan is one of my favorite characters; I've got no bias against them and even view Akainu as the strongest admiral, with all of them being very close in power to Marineford Whitebeard. Despite having strong abilities in base, I'm just not of the opinion that any of them are capable of defeating someone as versatile and powerful as Doflamingo. Granted, they'd give him lots of difficulty due to their insane endurance and great stats, but it's biting off more than they can chew.


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## Canute87 (Nov 23, 2015)

i don't see admirals with g4 level offensive power.

if the admirals have rokushiki techs then flamingo is fucked.


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## Shanks (Nov 23, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> 95 to 80 might be overestimating somewhat, but I do get what you mean. The admirals are definitely top tiers without their fruits, but they're losing around half of their power like combat versatility/firepower/range as you'd outlined beforehand. It's also fair to factor in the possible weaknesses they might show from lack of refined abilities in base, seeing they've been using the fruits for decades. I still see the base admirals beating characters like Current Luffy and possibly Yami Teach, but they'd lose to anyone stronger than that from my perspective.
> 
> I wouldn't say I'm a downplayer of the admirals. Kuzan is one of my favorite characters; I've got no bias against them and even view Akainu as the strongest admiral, with all of them being very close in power to Marineford Whitebeard. Despite having strong abilities in base, I'm just not of the opinion that any of them are capable of defeating someone as versatile and powerful as Doflamingo. Granted, they'd give him lots of difficulty due to their insane endurance and great stats, but it's biting off more than they can chew.



Agree with this


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## rext1 (Nov 23, 2015)

Whats with people on here pretending that DD is a world-beater & WSM-candidate??
Does anyone on here actually believe that  he possesses the raw skillset to stand with the top-dogs!?



Josh said:


> ?	Fire Power ? 80/100
> *?	Combat versatility ? 50/100*
> ?	Speed ? 90/100
> ?	Stamina ? 98/100
> ...



The stats in which u have Akainu substantially losing points are exactly the two least useful in assessing overall combat capabilities. (CoO likely being the other until they actually demonstrate as a gamechanger in an actual battle, so far its functioned as more of a story device)

Enel would likely max out the combat versatility, CoO & range attributes yet would not qualify as a top tier by any definition of the status. Because his fundamentals are not sound(e.g his Speed(I'm referring to his lacklustre physical & reaction speeds here not his DF-related teleportation), Stamina, CoA & Endurance are abysmal or virtually non-existant)

Contrast this with a Prime Garp, since his fighting style involved brawling & fists(actually physically closing the distance between him & his target to deliver the hurt) and he did all this without a DF. Garp's range & combat versatility compared to men who can pull in meteors from outer space, generate flying slashes which cover miles and still retain formidable slicing power etc would measure in quite lowly.
However, Prime Garp would likely defeat anyone not named Roger or Primebeard because his fundamental base stats are so off-the-charts.

This is also why any Admiral - DF or no DF would defeat Doflamingo.
They outclass him in the fundamentals.
? 	Fire Power
?	Combat versatility
?	Speed
?	Stamina
?	CoA 
?	CoO
?	Endurance 
?	Range
Of the above attributes, the only areas in which an argument could be made for DD being superior = combat versatility, Range & possibly firepower. (DD possibly outscores Prime Garp on versatility & range btw it actually wouldnt matter in a fight)
However, the Admirals would still concretely score above DD in the fundamentals and as a result still be overall superior combatants. 

The Admirals base stats will come into play when they face EOS M3. Fuji and Kizaru will need the physical speed, reaction time, stamina, endurance and CoA in conjuction with haxx DF's to stand against EOS Zoro & EOS Sanji.
When EOS Zoro sends a universe-rending slash yourway and youre forced to parry & defend it. Thats your physical reaction speed & strength coming into play.
When EOS Zoro's sword coated with the worlds best CoA makes contact with ur own, you will have to coat ur own sword with top tier haki to stop it from snapping. Thats where top-of-the-line haki comes into play.

DD would look pitiful against EOS Zoro and get babyhandled worse than he did against G4 Luffy because his fundamentals are not remotely up to par.
Mihawk, EOS Shilliew or Fuji wont because their fundamentals will be top tier and up to par.


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## Raiden34 (Nov 23, 2015)

Admirals aren't winning this.


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## rext1 (Nov 23, 2015)

Erkan12 said:


> Admirals aren't winning this.



DD loses this for the same reason he would be an embarrassment as a foe vs EOS Zoro or EOS Sanji.

His base stats are not up to snuff.



Amol said:


> Devil Fruits are major power source in One Piece. Pretending otherwise is foolish.



I dont think anyones contesting the fact that DF's are an important part of a fighters arsenal in OP.

My opinion is that top tier status is attained only when ur base stats are top tier.

I think my point is illustrated by the fact that *there exist many people with insanely haxx DF's that are not top-tiers: *Enel, Ace, Pre-TS Teach
*And there exist many people with insanely high base stats and no DF's that are top tiers:* Garp, Rayleigh, Shanks, Mihawk.
However there doesnt exist a top tier with lowly physical & haki stats.

*The formula for Top Tier Status Are:*
*Haxx DF + Top Tier Stats =* Top Tier(WB, Admirals, likely also Kaido, BM, BB)
*No DF + Top Tier Stats =* Top Tier(Garp, Shanks, Mihawk, Ray)
*Haxx DF + Non-Top Tier Stats* = Not Top Tier(Enel, Ace, Current Law)

DD is in the Haxx DF but non-Top Tier Stats camp which was well demonstrated by him getting mollywhopped by G4 Luffy.
A DF-less Admiral will still fall into the No DF + Top Tier Stats category.


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## Shanks (Nov 23, 2015)

Too much Doflamingo downplay here...


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## rext1 (Nov 23, 2015)

Josh said:


> Too much Doflamingo downplay here...



I think everyone recognizes him as super strong.

He's just not Top Tier, this becomes more evident as the NW arc pans out and out-of-nowhere pirates like Jack & Weeble literally jump infront of the power lists ahead of him.


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## Shanks (Nov 23, 2015)

Dofla would fuck Weeble. Not sure about Jack.


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## ~M~ (Nov 23, 2015)

> Whats with people on here pretending that DD is a world-beater & WSM-candidate??


No one

He is directly below one fruited admiral 

One fruit admiral could beat 3 fruitless 
And So could Doflamingo


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## rext1 (Nov 23, 2015)

em senpai said:


> No one
> *
> He is directly below one fruited admiral *
> 
> ...



I guess that where we disagree.

G4 Luffy literally looked a tier above DD. Thats how badly he was overwhelming him.
If DD is just under an Admiral than G4 Luffy should be > an Admiral by now and by quite a margin.
Given that youre not supposed to be able to low-diff people close in power to yourself.
G4 Luffy >> DF Admiral > DD.
(Do you actually see that as being tenable this far into the story?)

If G4 Luffy was >= an Admiral why no real hype from people who can gauge true top tier strength?
You didnt have Sabo or Fuji shitting themselves because they just detected this overwhelming, unprecedented force on Dressrosa!!
Fuji wasnt in a panic, radioing back to HQ that there existed a power he alone couldnt defeat!!
In fact Fuji took his sweet time pursuing the SH's will all the calmness & restraint in the world.

Borderline, a non-Admiral lvl G4 Luffy >> DD! 

Admiral > G4 Luffy >> DD.

DD is not just-below-an-Admiral - infact theres a substantial space there where guys like Weeble, Jack, Old Rayleigh, YONKO FM's, Zoro, Wano Shogun, Old Garp, Old Sengoku, Kong, CP0 Leader, Sabo etc reside.


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## Shanks (Nov 23, 2015)

rext1 said:


> I guess that where we disagree.
> 
> G4 Luffy literally looked a tier above DD. Thats how badly he was overwhelming him.
> If DD is just under an Admiral than G4 Luffy should be > an Admiral by now and by quite a margin.
> ...



No, G4 Luffy isn?t >> Dofla, simply because G4 Luffy has limitations, therefore all things considered, Luffy (fuck versions) will are give or take on the same level as Doflamingo.

Should Luffy master G4 and remove the limitations, then he will be admiral level of higher. 

Everything that Dofla have shown is a sub tier below an Admiral, that is Low top tier, which is roughly round Jozu?s level. Doflamingo has earned this respect because:
?	Demonstrating superiority over Jozu in NF (not say Dofla could win if they have an extended battle)
?	Hype up by Kuzan that they require Admirals to take him down
?	Proceed to attack Smoker and broke the ice from Kuzan and then walk away with a swagger and talk to Kuzan with an attitude (not saying that he would not lose against Kuzan)
?	Attacks Fujitora when he was pissed off (once again, I?m not saying he could win)
?	Holding up a country level bird cage while fighting Luffy and Law, etc
?	Shit his pants at Kaido
?	Man handle by G4 Luffy

The last two points simply proves the strength of Kaido and how much Luffy has progress and not because Doflamingo is shit.

Let?s talk about endurance for a second. Akainu talked 2 quake punches from WB. However Dofla still tanked 10 mins of smackdown from G4. How many punches is that? I?m talking countless. And this is beastly fucken endurance that is only second to WB and Akainu so far.

Simply put, Dofla would lose to a full power Admiral, maybe mid dif. But removing an Admiral DF, even if the Admiral faster and stronger, it wouldn?t be several tiers ahead, but only a sub tier. Dofla can win and he makes up in speed and power, with versatility and DF mastery. For example, he can increase his speed by utilising his DF or increase his defence by using awakening or spiderweb, etc.


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## Sherlōck (Nov 23, 2015)

Strength wise G4 Luffy at best is Jozu tier. 

He still going to fight & improve at least two more opponents before Supernova's gang up on a Yonko. All his stat is going to improve as well which includes G4 version of him as well. I see G4 Luffy when they will fight a Yonko being same level of stat as an Admiral/Yonko.

One misconception that is flying around here is that strength,durability & speed of Admirals depends solely on their DF which is ridiculous & a laughable analysis. Kizaru is the only one who will lose speed here. Base stats with or without DF remains same. 



Josh said:


> Dofla would fuck Weeble. Not sure about Jack.



Baseless assessment is baseless. This is pure fandom here.


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## convict (Nov 24, 2015)

I think base Sabo before he ate the Mera Mera has a decent chance against Doflamingo so needless to say each of the admiras beat him without their fruits. If Luffy can guard against Doflamingo's strings to an extent it will take a huge offensive load to do the admirals in. If we take their endurance into account on top of that it will take ages. And then we account for the fact that they should be noticeably faster and stronger than even Sabo and Doflamingo can only hope to stay in the game with awakening. Kizaru was fighting Rayleigh on even terms on pure swordsmanship. Kizaru and Akainu were known to be monsters even before they got their fruits. Fujitora is clearly an elite swordsman himself.

Each of the admirals take it _at the very most_ lower end of high difficulty. That is the best case scenario for Doflamingo in my view.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Nov 24, 2015)

Even without Logia ability, both Kizaru AND Akainu were able to stop *Whitebeard*  from lifting his Bisento after swinging it.


They still have enough raw physical power & Haki to push Doflamingo around. 

If Garp can do it, so can the Admirals. Like someone else stated, their fruits mean nothing when someone that has Armaments attacks them; it then comes down to raw physical power. 

If Akainu's (or ANY Admiral's) Haki was so weak, he would've been hurt when Marco & Vista bypassed his intangibility when they tag-teamed him.

*Bottom Line:*

Doflamingo lacks the stopping power to neutralize them.


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## Raiden34 (Nov 24, 2015)

People forgetting how powerful Admiral's devil fruits  are... Every Admiral's fruit is almost top tier, Akainu beat Ace only because of fruit advantage, and magma is extremely dangerous, just take it from Akainu and he isn't even beating Ace.

Aokiji, he can freeze Whitebeard, Jozu like nothing, just take that fruit from him and he will even lose to Jozu.

Kizaru, same. He would lose Marco.

Fujitora, without fruit he can't even beat Mihawk, but with his fruit power, he would mid-diffs him.

Sengoku, can't fight against Blackbeard without his Buddha form.

Only Garp can take down someone like Mingo with his base stats, because he didn't reach that level with fruit power. No one is downplaying Admirals base stats but Mingo isn't someone you can beat it without some extraordinary base stats, and Admirals doesn't have those.


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## ~M~ (Nov 24, 2015)

TBH what are some calcs on physical sick old WB? 

Seems like everyone and their mother stopped his regular blows 


The speed, variety of effects, and intensity of a full Doflamingo assault will surpass a single sword strike


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## rext1 (Nov 24, 2015)

Erkan12 said:


> People forgetting how powerful Admiral's devil fruits  are... Every Admiral's fruit is almost top tier


A DF does not make u top-tier!
The OP world is replete with DF users who have mastered there DF's to their maximum potential(Enel, DD, Crocodile) however mastering a haxx DF does not make u a top tier!
Do u honestly believe that what separates the rest of One Piece from being an Admiral/YONKO is simply the fact that they acquired a particular DF???



Erkan12 said:


> Akainu beat Ace only because of fruit advantage, and magma is extremely dangerous, just take it from Akainu and he isn't even beating Ace.
> 
> Aokiji, he can freeze Whitebeard, Jozu like nothing, just take that fruit from him and he will even lose to Jozu.
> 
> ...


Literally a laundry list of unsupported opinions not even remotely backed up by the manga.



Erkan12 said:


> *Only Garp can take down someone like Mingo with his base stats*, because he didn't reach that level with fruit power. No one is downplaying Admirals base stats but Mingo isn't someone you can beat it without some extraordinary base stats, and Admirals doesn't have those.


You're speaking of DD as if he were Primebeard or Roger.
We're talking not about a Prime Whitebeard here - we're talking about the first major villain to go down in the NW. There will likely be another number of villains to go down between here & Kaido.
And Luffy's probably going to be doing some substantial powering up inbetween now & Kaido.

You're talking about a guy who literally got exposed for lacking top-of-the-world fighting skills in the most blatant way possible. We literally were treated a number of chapters ago to panel after panel of DD being taken to the cleaners by G4 Luffy.

What separates DD from the Admirals is not DF's.
Its everything else!!


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## Shanks (Nov 24, 2015)

rext1 said:


> A DF does not make u top-tier!
> The OP world is replete with DF users who have mastered there DF's to their maximum potential(Enel, DD, Crocodile) however mastering a haxx DF does not make u a top tier!
> Do u honestly believe that what separates the rest of One Piece from being an Admiral/YONKO is simply the fact that they acquired a particular DF???
> 
> ...




The DF doesn’t make you top tier, but it’s is how you train your top tier DF fruit and improve your stats to be able to master it, which makes you a top tier. C3 was using their DF and training them from the get go, therefore losing the DF will require them to re-learn and re-train their fighting capabilities.

C3 base stats shouldn’t be as powerful as someone like Garp, whom even without a top tier DF, he could reach to the top of one piece. If an Admiral lose their DF straight off the bat, someone like Garp would mid dif them and at best their overall fighting capabilities is at Doflamingo’s level.

Doflamingo isn’t the first NW Villian. The first was Hody and then Cesar. Doflamingo is a Saga Villian and the next Saga villain is likely going to be a Yonkou, with guys like Weebee and Jack as small arc villain. They could easily be weaker than Dofla or the same level.

Yes, what’s separating DD and Admiral is not a DF, but decades of experience fighting and mastering their DF fruit. This is equivalent to a black belt Karate expert, not been able to use Karate in a fight. Sure, he still have the stamina, in good shape, have the muscles and reflect, but his overall fighting capabilities would have decrease significantly.

An Admiral losing their decades of DF mastering and fighting experience will still have some top tier stats, but, they are no longer a solid top tier. Like I said previously, Garp would overall power and destroy any admirals without their fruit mid dif, just like he would mid Dif Jozu or Doflamingo, while the admirals will be in the same tier, all things considering when losing the most valuable asset to the combat.

Imagine Mihawk losing his sword and not allow to use swordsmanship in a battle? This is the exact same fucken thing.

The problem with most of the people here is that they already ingrain in their mind that Doflamingo is shit and Luffy is shit tier compare to an admiral, therefore, no matter what, they will lose.


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## barreltheif (Nov 24, 2015)

There's no such thing as "top tier stats". The admirals are physically strong. Garp is much, much stronger. The admirals make up for that with skillful use of powerful fruits.
The admirals are probably all physically better than Doffy, but certainly not so vastly better that they can beat him if you take away their main fighting styles, most of their lethality, and all of their range. Gura Teach was top tier and strong enough to quickly become a yonkou, yet he was probably physically worse than Doffy, and worse in haki as well.


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## trance (Nov 25, 2015)

Erkan12 said:


> People forgetting how powerful Admiral's devil fruits  are... Every Admiral's fruit is almost top tier, Akainu beat Ace only because of fruit advantage, and magma is extremely dangerous, just take it from Akainu and he isn't even beating Ace.





> Akainu beat Ace only because of fruit advantage, and magma is extremely dangerous, just take it from Akainu and he isn't even beating Ace.





> just take it from Akainu and he isn't even beating Ace.





> he isn't even beating Ace.



Cool story bro.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 25, 2015)

em senpai said:


> TBH what are some calcs on physical sick old WB?
> 
> Seems like everyone and their mother stopped his regular blows



Most top tiers can stop Marineford Whitebeard's strikes with physical strength alone. It's used as something exclusive to admirals for some reason, though.

Garp/Jozu/Marco can do the same thing, and they're not even admirals.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Nov 25, 2015)

So can someone explain to me how Doflamingo is beating Akainu, despite his DFless handicap?

Last I've seen, he isn't replicating the damage of 2 Quake punches, the second one having the force to tear an island in half.


Fujitora taking a G3 punch like it was someone tapping him on the shoulder isn't anything to laugh at either.

Even without fruits, we know at least two of these guys are TANKS in their rawest form.


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## ~M~ (Nov 25, 2015)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> So can someone explain to me how Doflamingo is beating Akainu, despite his DFless handicap?
> 
> Last I've seen, he isn't replicating the damage of 2 Quake punches, the second one having the force to tear an island in half.
> 
> ...



Birdcage, overheat, parasite


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## Shanks (Nov 25, 2015)

Quikdraw7777 said:


> So can someone explain to me how Doflamingo is beating Akainu, despite his DFless handicap?
> 
> Last I've seen, he isn't replicating the damage of 2 Quake punches, the second one having the force to tear an island in half.
> 
> ...



He lands more than 2 hits?


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## Sumu (Nov 25, 2015)

Doffy beats them all.


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## rext1 (Nov 25, 2015)

Josh said:


> He lands more than 2 hits?



What if those hits are unable to penetrate an Admiral's CoA?
Removing a DF doesnt take away an Admirals ability to evade, tank with haki, parry etc.



barreltheif said:


> There's no such thing as "top tier stats".


Is One Piece your first introduction to manga?
The Top Tier of any manga are often potrayed & explicitly depicted as being superior to the rest of the verse in not only their unique abilities but in their physical stats as well.
The fact that non-DF users like Shanks, Mihawk, Garp, Rayleigh are even represented in the ranks of the Top Tier are proof positive that "top tier stats" exist.




barreltheif said:


> The admirals are probably all physically better than Doffy, but certainly not so vastly better that they can beat him if you take away their main fighting styles, most of their lethality, and all of their range. *Gura Teach was top tier and strong enough to quickly become a yonkou, yet he was probably physically worse than Doffy, and worse in haki as well.*


No proof of the bolded. Making my point further, its obvious that just attaining the Gura Gura no mi was not what made Teach a top tier/YONKO.
Gura Teach literally fled from Sakazuki screaming that he was as of yet "not ready for this!"
What changed? We can infer that from the people surrounding BB - his crew!
Jesus Burgess pre-TS was identified by BB as being vastly inferior to Portgas D Ace and possibly lacked haki. Post-TS he is a YONKO commander and all without a DF!!
What improved?? His base stats!
Shilliew pre-TS was < Magellan - now he's the assumed BB equivalent of Marco, Beckmann etc also likely without a DF!!
What improved?? His base stats!

You literally could have slapped any Haxx DF on pre-TS Shilliew and it wouldnt have stopped him from being no-diffed by EOS Zolo!
But EOS Shilliew will put up a good fight because alongside a nasty DF he'll actually possess the stats to last a nano-second.


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## Raiden34 (Nov 25, 2015)

If Admirals already have base Garp physical stats then what's meaning of using the DF power ? Garp can beat any Admiral in his prime, and that means Admirals' base stats are trash in front of Garp. They are only a match for him because of their extremely unique DF abilities.

Admirals are powerful, because of their DF mastery, not because of their unique Haki, or a unique physical stats like Garp / Whitebeard / Rayleigh have...

No one saying that Admirals doesn't have good amount of Haki and physical ability, just not on the levels of  top tiers who has no DF, such as Shanks / Garp / Rayleigh etc.

That is why they aren't beating someone like Doffy without their DF abilities. They would beat Vergo for sure, or even Law, but Doffy isn't someone you can easily mess with.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Nov 25, 2015)

Josh said:


> He lands more than 2 hits?




Yes, because Doflamingo hits with the force of a Mack Truck like Whitebeard.



Again, if these guys have such shit base stats, Marco & Vista should've had Akainu laying in a ditch when they bypassed his DF intangibility and managed to land 2 clean shots on him simultaneously.

Marco, while using the momentum provided from his Zoan.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Nov 27, 2015)

Josh said:


> I would argue that for everyone hit an DFless admiral lands on Dofla, he could land 3 hits.




Because once their DF is stripped from them, so are their:

Physical Strength
Speed
Endurance
Reflexes


....right?

Like, how weak do you guys believe these Admirals become without the fruits?
If that were the case, the Marines wouldn't have needed to issue a *WORLDWIDE*  conscription just to find *2* guys to fill in the vacancies.


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## ~M~ (Nov 27, 2015)

The admirals have no speed or mobility compared to doflamingo without fruit  

A cloud? They'll never reach him 

Range? Screwed by it 

Fact frankly is he could birdcage them and it's already over. 

The admirals imo are the strongest characters on par with yonko but still not physically strong enough to both tank and attack a high high character like DD. Can't be done.


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## Shanks (Nov 27, 2015)

People should really read the thread before posting. This is getting repetitive.


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## rext1 (Nov 27, 2015)

Erkan12 said:


> Garp can beat any Admiral in his prime, and that means Admirals' base stats are trash in front of Garp. They are only a match for him because of their extremely unique DF abilities.


Garp can beat any Admiral/YONKO in his prime - doesnt mean their base stats are trash! His stats are just either second to none(or second only to Roger/Primebeard).
You're actually marvelously making my point. Superior base stats > haxx DF. If u dont have the base stats to compete a haxx DF doesnt make a difference!



Erkan12 said:


> Admirals are powerful, because of their DF mastery, not because of their unique Haki, or a unique physical stats like Garp / Whitebeard / Rayleigh have...


You're speaking as if the MF war didnt happen where
1) An admiral utilised haki to negate the sneak attack of a YONKO FM & division commander!
2) An Admiral took the biggest hit ever in the manga & returned to run through multiple NW veterans(Rev commander, YONKO commanders, Schichibukai)
3) An Admiral has demonstrated the ability to sense asteroids outside the planets atmosphere, identify & pull them in(unparalleled CoO feat).
4) Admirals on multiple occasion stopped WB's bisento.
5) An Admiral engaged Rayleigh in a sword fight & held his own
^ there exist many One Piece characters with Haxx DF's there exist only a subset of a subset who can replicate the above feats!
Thats what make top tiers - top tiers! Not haxx DF's!
Everyone & their mother has a haxx DF in the NW! Not everyone's a top tier!




Erkan12 said:


> That is why they aren't beating someone like Doffy without their DF abilities. They would beat Vergo for sure, or even Law, but Doffy isn't someone you can easily mess with.


Again, why is DD being put on some pedestal as some God of War! Second coming of Roger etc!
We've already seen that DD has the capacity to be overwhelmed by a concentrated barrage from a tanky opponent with superior physicality & speed.
All areas a DF-less Admiral will still crush DD in - DF or no DF!



Josh said:


> I would argue that for everyone hit an DFless admiral lands on Dofla, he could land 3 hits.


Why? Thats a remarkably unfounded assumption to make. If DD could speedblitz top tiers why was G4 Luffy running circles around him?
Even if he could(which he wont) the Admiral have superior CoA, physical strength & endurance & so they would take DD's 3 hits much much better than he would take their hypothetical 1!


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## A Optimistic (Nov 29, 2015)

Admirals win with no difficulty, so what if they dont have their fruit? Doflamingo is inferior to them in every single category, he can't even touch them.


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## A Optimistic (Nov 29, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Birdcage, overheat, parasite
> 
> 
> 
> The same oveheat a wounded Law blocked?


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## Gohara (Dec 3, 2015)

rext1 said:


> Fire Power
> Combat versatility
> Speed
> Stamina
> ...



I would say that the Admirals besting Doflamingo in most of those categories lacks evidence, and in some cases I would even argue otherwise.  Doflamingo is one of the most versatile characters in the series.  He excels in every category.


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