# Luffy vs Fujitora



## YonkoDrippy (Feb 14, 2022)

Can Luffy beat an Admiral at this point? Can he beat Fujitora?


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## Velocity (Feb 14, 2022)

Luffy punches him so hard he sees the curvature of the Earth.


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 14, 2022)

Fuji gets his shit rocked

Reactions: Agree 4 | Winner 1 | Disagree 2 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Fel1x (Feb 14, 2022)

Luffy high diff

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 14, 2022)

Luffy high diff

Reactions: Useful 1


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (Feb 14, 2022)

Luffy should extreme diff.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## ShadoLord (Feb 14, 2022)

Luffy ain't there yet.

Reactions: Like 8 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 3


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## Kanki (Feb 14, 2022)

On feats obviously Luffy.

But we haven't seen what Fujitora is capable of. Heck, iirc he's even based off a real life actor/character that purposely avoids showing his true strength iirc?

So I'll say about equal, maybe even Fuji.

Reactions: Winner 4 | Optimistic 1


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## Inferno Jewls (Feb 14, 2022)

Fuji takes another W 

High diff

Reactions: Like 7 | Optimistic 2


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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 14, 2022)

Luffy by feats

Fujitora being a top tier isn't a good enough reason to give him the nod over Luffy. You can argue that a fresh Fujitora would also defeat the version of Kaidou that started this final around, but can he match Kaidou's speed, AP and Haki like Luffy's doing? Even though current Kaidou actually has higher AP than before? Being an entry level admiral hardly guarantees that. Also, Luffy didn't start the final round at 100% either.


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## Corax (Feb 14, 2022)

Fujitora high or so. Luffy will beat a weakened version of Kaido. I am 100% sure current Luffy is no more than high for 100% fresh and serious Kaido. Probably even less if he will show us awakening or some great finisher in the next chapters.


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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 15, 2022)

Considering Kaidou retains his other stats like AP despite having less stamina and HP than before, the difficulty Kaidou needs to beat Luffy depends on how Luffy defeats him. If Luffy overpowers Kaidou's strongest form/attack instead of just wearing out Kaidou, Fujitora and Luffy wouldn't even be a debate. Fujitora will have to show better feats to push Kaidou to extreme.


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## Corax (Feb 15, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Considering Kaidou retains his other stats like AP despite having less stamina and HP than before, the difficulty Kaidou needs to beat Luffy depends on how Luffy defeats him. If Luffy overpowers Kaidou's strongest form/attack without wearing him out first, Fujitora and Luffy wouldn't even be a debate. Fujitora will have to show better feats to push Kaidou to extreme.


Isn't Kaido already weakened?He has been fighting for 40 chapters (or at least 3 hours in real time) and took a lot of attacks.


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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 15, 2022)

Corax said:


> Isn't Kaido already weakened?He has been fighting for 40 chapters (or at least 3 hours in real time) and took a lot of attacks.


As far as stamina and HP? Yes. As far as AP and haki? Nope. Luffy observed that Kaidou's haki is stronger than when Kaidou had more stamina before. The fact that Kaidou's overpowering Luffy despite not being able to earlier when Kaidou was in a better shape further proves this.


That line was also confirmed by the official translation


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## Corax (Feb 15, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> As far as stamina and HP? Yes. As far as AP and haki? Nope. Luffy observed that Kaidou's haki is stronger than when Kaidou had more stamina before. The fact that Kaidou's overpowering Luffy despite not being able to earlier when Kaidou was in a better shape further proves this.
> 
> 
> That line was also confirmed by the official translation


I get it as fresh Kaido in drunk mode would've been even stronger than weakened Kaido in drunk mode. Which is logical. He would've won  with almost 100% probability.


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## arv993 (Feb 15, 2022)

Luffy upper high diff. Fujitora doesn’t have the feats nor the hype tbh. He likely won’t face luffy again and is there as a benchmark for his subordinates.


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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 15, 2022)

Corax said:


> I get it as fresh Kaido in drunk mode would've* been even stronger than weakened Kaido in drunk mode*. Which is logical. He would've won  with almost 100% probability.


We don't know that. We can't even be sure if it's the alcohol that made his haki stronger. There's quite a few possibilities to explain why Kaidou‘s haki is stronger now.

FresH Kaidou winning with certainty? yes to just that part.


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## Corax (Feb 15, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> We don't know that. We can't even be sure if it's the alcohol that made his haki stronger. There's quite a few possibilities to explain why Kaidou‘s haki is stronger now.
> 
> FresH Kaidou winning with certainty? yes to just that part.


I am just saying fresh Kaido with the same alcohol/haki boost>weakened Kaido with the same alcohol/haki boost. He would've very likely won even without any boost anyway.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 15, 2022)

Fujitora high diff, perhaps slightly higher. Luffy just reached a level where he can compete with a top tier that is on the verge of going down and it still looks like he is inferior.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 15, 2022)

Corax said:


> I am just saying fresh Kaido with the same alcohol/haki boost>weakened Kaido with the same alcohol/haki boost.


If by stronger you mean higher stamina and HP then yes. Otherwise, that's not  proven at all. Attacks tend to get stronger toward the end of the battle. There's a cap on everyone's max AP for any attack and more stamina doesn't mean the max AP cap is raised. OP has never worked like that. The only times we see AP affected is when someone has a debilitating injury or is very close to depletion.


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## Corax (Feb 15, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> If by stronger you mean higher stamina and HP then yes. Otherwise, that's not  proven at all. Attacks tend to get stronger toward the end of the battle. There's a cap on everyone's max AP for any attack and more stamina doesn't necessarily mean higher max AP. This has never been proven. The only times we see AP affected is when someone has a debilitating injury or very close to depletion.


This isn't correct. For example almost dead WB barely made Teach to bleed a bit and destroyed a small portion of land beneath him. 100 % fresh WB destroyed 2 tsunami waves and made entire island and surroundings to go wild after a punch meant for VA John.


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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 15, 2022)

Corax said:


> This isn't correct. For example almost dead WB barely made Teach to bleed a bit and destroyed a small portion of land beneath him. 100 % fresh WB destroyed 2 tsunami waves and made entire island and surroundings to go wild after a punch meant for VA John.


Right, which is why I mentioned debilitating injuries aside. Not just stamina by itself. WB was near death with multiple fatal holes on him.

Also, the attack that hit Teach obviously got weakened by going through Teach.


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## Corax (Feb 15, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Right, which is why I mentioned debilitating injuries aside. Not stamina


Kaido is also might be very close to depletion as Yamato mentioned. Since Momo needs to carry an island instead. It is very illogical to say that for example fatigued boxer can punch as hard as 100 fresh and warmed.


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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 15, 2022)

Corax said:


> Kaido is also might be very close to depletion as Yamato mentioned. Since Momo needs to carry an island instead. I*t is very illogical to say that for example fatigued boxer can punch as hard as 100 fresh and warmed.*


OP world isn't real world. Not all laws of physiology are carried over to every fictional verse. Otherwise WB would be dead already once half his head and heart got burned off. More stamina = higher max AP has to be proven, and so far the history of battles in OP hasn't demonstrated this. The fact that Kaidou can still raise his max AP higher than before suggests otherwise. Because if his AP is constantly weakening due to stamina drain, his AP would have to be raising constantly by some other mechanism just for his AP to stay constant, let alone be  stronger than before.

I've addressed the flame clouds waning before. He doesn't have to be near depletion for the clouds themselves to wane.



Heart Over Blade said:


> Not being able upkeep the flame clouds is a stamina problem. Kaidou's fighting a threat that could match him, not just stall him. He doesn't have the stamina to spare on a lower priority task like moving an island. He can focus on that after beating Luffy.
> Luffy's been fighting Kaidou for multiple rounds and from his perspective Kaidou's haki/AP is stronger than before. That's all that matters.



Also Kaidou obviously wasn't that close to depletion as of the beginning of the final round if he's been fighting for this many chapters since then and is still mustering higher AP output than before the flame clouds waned.


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## arv993 (Feb 15, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Fujitora high diff, perhaps slightly higher. Luffy just reached a level where he can compete with a top tier that is on the verge of going down and it still looks like he is inferior.


As optimistic as always when it comes to admirals wiggian?

Top tiers aren’t created equally. Fuji is a bottom of the barrel top tier until proven otherwise. If sabo and friends can injure Fuji and DR Zoro and luffy can push the dude back. He’s not even beating an injured kaido.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Gokou08 (Feb 15, 2022)

arv993 said:


> As optimistic as always when it comes to admirals wiggian?
> 
> Top tiers aren’t created equally. Fuji is a bottom of the barrel top tier until proven otherwise. If sabo and friends can injure Fuji and DR Zoro and luffy can push the dude back. He’s not even beating an injured kaido.


I'll admit Fuji is lacking because of how Oda didn't want for him to do anything on DR, but saying he wouldn't beat current Kaidou is to much, once Fuji shows some Wild CoO shit, awakening and his full DF power which is as busted as Law we will see, there is a reason the dude jumped to Admiral without even being a Marine. 
Otherwise I agree pretty much.


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## Ludi (Feb 15, 2022)

Could go either way, leaning towards Fuji, until we know Luffy can actually best top tiers alone, as in beats Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Duhul10 (Feb 15, 2022)

Luffy rips his head off, lol, the guy was huffing against a way, way, way inferior version of Luffy. Imagine him having to resist current Luffy's stats for hours   .

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## JayK (Feb 15, 2022)

Fujitora high diff

Reactions: Funny 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Feb 15, 2022)

Luffy extreme

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 15, 2022)

arv993 said:


> As optimistic as always when it comes to admirals wiggian?
> 
> Top tiers aren’t created equally. Fuji is a bottom of the barrel top tier until proven otherwise. If sabo and friends can injure Fuji and DR Zoro and luffy can push the dude back. He’s not even beating an injured kaido.



I agree top tiers are not created equally. Kaido has multiple losses and been captured a dozen of times unlike Fujitora. Being pushed back is much better than being punched into the dirt like Kaido was too.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 15, 2022)

Kanki said:


> On feats obviously Luffy.
> 
> But we haven't seen what Fujitora is capable of. Heck, iirc he's even based off a real life actor/character that purposely avoids showing his true strength iirc?
> 
> So I'll say about equal, maybe even Fuji.


Fujitora was still bandaged some time after his battle with the revolutionaries despite having a second admiral by his side in that battle. That in itself demonstrates a distinct disparity between Fuji's strength and the power of the fighters that Luffy has been pit against in this arc. Unless you want to argue that the revos were more formidable as a group than the RT5.

Besides, it's not as if Fuji is an exact copy of the actor that inspired his character. There are already notable differences between their characters, and even if you wanted to assume that Fuji was still hiding his strength despite coming out of his fights with notable injuries it'd still be totally random/baseless to argue that he was holding back enough strength to compete with current Luffy.

I wonder if Kaido would've been incapable of busting through Flamingo's bird cage


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## Corax (Feb 15, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> I wonder if Kaido would've been incapable of busting through Flamingo's bird cage


It was a plot device. As much as bombs that defeated BM.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 15, 2022)

Corax said:


> It was a plot device. As much as bombs that defeated BM.


Big Mom wasn't defeated by the bombs, she just couldn't use them as a foothold.

When you find yourself often trying to remedy discrepancies in your power scaling by claiming it was all because of plot you might need to reconsider how you're judging these things.

I see that excuse way too much


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## Corax (Feb 15, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Big Mom wasn't defeated by the bombs, she just couldn't use them as a foothold.
> 
> When you find yourself often trying to remedy discrepancies in your power scaling by claiming it was all because of plot you might need to reconsider how you're judging these things.
> 
> I see that excuse way too much


She was defeated by a massive bomb explosion in the end of the chapter. Really hard to miss that scene.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kanki (Feb 15, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Fujitora was still bandaged some time after his battle with the revolutionaries despite having a second admiral by his side in that battle. That in itself demonstrates a distinct disparity between Fuji's strength and the power of the fighters that Luffy has been pit against in this arc. Unless you want to argue that the revos were more formidable as a group than the RT5.
> 
> Besides, it's not as if Fuji is an exact copy of the actor that inspired his character. There are already notable differences between their characters, and even if you wanted to assume that Fuji was still hiding his strength despite coming out of his fights with notable injuries it'd still be totally random/baseless to argue that he was holding back enough strength to compete with current Luffy.
> 
> I wonder if Kaido would've been incapable of busting through Flamingo's bird cage


Fuji can't exactly send a big meteor down on the Reverie, can he? A nice bandage doesn't mean much to me given that we didn't see the circumstances of the fight. 

He'd have stopped the BC had he wanted any glory whatsoever.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## arv993 (Feb 15, 2022)

Gokou08 said:


> I'll admit Fuji is lacking because of how Oda didn't want for him to do anything on DR, but saying he wouldn't beat current Kaidou is to much, once Fuji shows some Wild CoO shit, awakening and his full DF power which is as busted as Law we will see, there is a reason the dude jumped to Admiral without even being a Marine.
> Otherwise I agree pretty much.


I don’t ever see him being as strong as big mom or kaido, he is a half a tier below them. Luffy is in that ballpark but essentially growing too fast to lose to fuji. Luffy is suited to counter his blunt damage as well.


Also on the Coo front, is he better than luffy or katakuri? Idk about that


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 15, 2022)

Kanki said:


> Fuji can't exactly send a big meteor down on the Reverie, can he? A nice bandage doesn't mean much to me given that we didn't see the circumstances of the fight.
> 
> He'd have stopped the BC had he wanted any glory whatsoever.


He sent down several meteors onto a city with nearby allies and civilians when he fought Sabo in Dressrosa. The location handicap isn’t the best argument. The reverie was huge, too. To the point where Sabo’s brother didn’t even realize that a fight had happened until afterwards. Don’t really think resigning to the notion that Fuji’s meteors are one of his best offensive capabilities is great for your side, either.

Stopping the Bird Cage wasn’t a matter of glory it was a matter of protecting the civilians. That argument doesn’t really hold up. Especially when you consider that Fuji and the Navy still played a role in slowing down the BC.


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## MO (Feb 15, 2022)

luffy extreme diff.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Turrin (Feb 15, 2022)

This can go ether way for me. I do think Kaidou is stronger then Fujitora (at least DR Fujitora), but I don’t know if it’s by a huge amount; and Fujitora is the more hax fighter which can give Luffy more problems then Kaidou whose a straight forward bruiser.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Kanki (Feb 15, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> He sent down several meteors onto a city with nearby allies and civilians when he fought Sabo in Dressrosa. The location handicap isn’t the best argument. The reverie was huge, too. To the point where Sabo’s brother didn’t even realize that a fight had happened until afterwards. Don’t really think resigning to the notion that Fuji’s meteors are one of his best offensive capabilities is great for your side, either.
> 
> Stopping the Bird Cage wasn’t a matter of glory it was a matter of protecting the civilians. That argument doesn’t really hold up. Especially when you consider that Fuji and the Navy still played a role in slowing down the BC.


Fair enough on point 1, but we still saw none of the circumstance so it's hard to comment. But on point two...come on. Fuji and the Navy helped along with all the civilians but he in particular did not want to save the day. He can assist, help etc but he put his bet on it being the Luffy show, unfortunately.


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## Canute87 (Feb 15, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Fujitora high diff, perhaps slightly higher. Luffy just reached a level where he can compete with a top tier that is on the verge of going down and it still looks like he is inferior.


That is on the basis that Fujitora has COC haki on the level of kaido.


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## Turrin (Feb 15, 2022)

Corax said:


> She was defeated by a massive bomb explosion in the end of the chapter. Really hard to miss that scene.


BM was defeated before then which is why she couldn’t move to escape falling and the bomb in the first place; this is also why she tried to steel souls to recover herself too. The bomb scene was just to give her a crazy send off and create false tension that she’s dead.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Duhul10 (Feb 15, 2022)

Turrin said:


> BM was defeated before then which is why she couldn’t move to escape falling and the bomb in the first place; this is also why she tried to steel souls to recover herself too. The bomb scene was just to give her a crazy send off and create false tension that she’s dead.


False, as always

Reactions: Agree 6 | Optimistic 1


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## Turrin (Feb 15, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> False, as always


Buthurt, as always


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 15, 2022)

Kanki said:


> Fair enough on point 1, but we still saw none of the circumstance so it's hard to comment. But on point two...come on. Fuji and the Navy helped along with all the civilians but he in particular did not want to save the day. He can assist, help etc but he put his bet on it being the Luffy show, unfortunately.


There’s not a lot that would justify Fuji coming out with that injury if he were truly at the level you believe he is. Definitely not enough to give him the benefit of the doubt

And Fuji literally stated his intent to help stop the BC. Even went as far as to use his haki. Evidently stopping the very immediate threat to the city and its civilians was different than defeating Doflamingo himself.



With that considered we don’t have much room to assume that he would’ve held back from stopping the BC.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Duhul10 (Feb 15, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Buthurt, as always


not at all. Your opinion is of very little importance to me. I do enjoy correcting you though.


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## Turrin (Feb 15, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> not at all. Your opinion is of very little importance to me. I do enjoy *correcting* you though.


How is that possible when you have never been correct even once?

Reactions: Disagree 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Duhul10 (Feb 15, 2022)

Turrin said:


> How is that possible when you have never been correct even once?


Hearing this from you actually gives me a reassurance tbh.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Feb 15, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Hearing this from you actually gives me a reassurance tbh.


I’m glad your reassured that your never been correct once in life.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 15, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> That is on the basis that Fujitora has COC haki on the level of kaido.



Why? Even if we assume that, what speaks against it?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Duhul10 (Feb 15, 2022)

Turrin said:


> I’m glad your reassured that your never been correct once in life.


I've been correct about you becoming a legend on this section for the Blueno statement. Every soul around now knows the most ridiculous statement in the history of this section and I like to thank myself, among others, for making it infamous. Thanks for your time now, I'll be punished if I keep laughing at you. Well, I'll still do it, but in silence.


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## TheNirou (Feb 15, 2022)

Fujitora extreme diff after the toughest fight of his life. Current Luffy can't be underrestimate now, he is on par with Yonkos and Admirals like Kaido, Fujitora...

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## Turrin (Feb 15, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> I've been *correct* about you becoming a legend on this section for the Blueno statement. Every soul around now knows the most ridiculous statement in the history of this section and I like to thank myself, among others, for making it infamous. Thanks for your time now, I'll be punished if I keep laughing at you. Well, I'll still do it, but in silence.


Except you weren’t because BM did worse then loosing to a new Gear Form from Luffy and probably isn’t even Gear 4 Luffy level based on Luffy equaling Hybrid Kaidou with just G2/3

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Canute87 (Feb 15, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Why? Even if we assume that, what speaks against it?


Sabo and Fujitora clash.

If there was COC haki between them we would have seen the clouds splitting. Clouds were present seeing that flamingo could keep airborne.

If Fujitoras COC haki was that powerful Sabo couldn't give him any talk. 

He wouldn't need to use  the Ferocious tiger  and all that he would have just slapped his ass away like Kaido and big mom (O-lin) did luffy. 

And on the flip side if Sabo's haki was that powerful Burgess should have been taken out with one hit from sabo. So  I don't see that to be the case.


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## Turrin (Feb 15, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> Sabo and Fujitora clash.
> 
> If there was COC haki between them we would have seen the clouds splitting. Clouds were present seeing that flamingo could keep airborne.
> 
> ...


Sabo is not necessarily using CoC Coating at all times; and there are different levels of CoC coating too; like Yamato probably isn’t sky splitting in clashes with Kaidou ether


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## Yonko RedHair Shanks (Feb 15, 2022)

Luffy with CoC infused- roc gatling heavily stomps Fujitora.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 15, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> Sabo and Fujitora clash.
> 
> If there was COC haki between them we would have seen the clouds splitting. Clouds were present seeing that flamingo could keep airborne.



Because Sabo was at a level of splitting skies at Dressrosa?   You are either the biggest Sabo wanker or your standart for advanced conqueror's is extremely low.



Canute87 said:


> If Fujitoras COC haki was that powerful Sabo couldn't give him any talk.



Sabo didn't give him any talk. 


*Spoiler*: __ 











Canute87 said:


> He wouldn't need to use the Ferocious tiger and all that he would have just slapped his ass away like Kaido and big mom (O-lin) did luffy.



Fuji just blew Luffy away without using haki to injure the rubberman. This guy had rubble with the size of Dressrosa at his disposal and could've ended everything with a gesture.



Canute87 said:


> And on the flip side if Sabo's haki was that powerful Burgess should have been taken out with one hit from sabo. So  I don't see that to be the case.



Burgess never put up much of a fight. He was a plot device to hold Sabo in place, away from Doflamingo. Burgess haki was so weak that he could not even make a novice logia user tangible with a free shot. Sabo on the other hand had portrayal of using advanced armament and it did nothing to Fujitora even coupled with the mera firepower.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Hdw (Feb 15, 2022)

Fujitora extreme diffs

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Canute87 (Feb 15, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Sabo is not necessarily using CoC Coating at all times; and there are different levels of CoC coating too; like Yamato probably isn’t sky splitting in clashes with Kaidou ether



Against Fujitora that merits it.


TheWiggian said:


> Because Sabo was at a level of splitting skies at Dressrosa?   You are either the biggest Sabo wanker or your standart for advanced conqueror's is extremely low.


He's the second in command to the Revo's who were strong enough to actually engage the admirals.  He should have had higher level of haki over luffy at that stage.

Sabo  at the very least was  definitely the second strongest person on dressrosa.  If Fujitora has Kaido's level of COC usage there wouldn't be a proper clash at all.  Sabo would get his ass completely folded without him even needing to bend  a town.



TheWiggian said:


> Sabo didn't give him any talk.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


Sabo wasn't in all that bad of a state.  he's in a clear better position than Luffy when he first met Kado

We've seen what a Kaido level COC user does to someone who doesn't have it. 


TheWiggian said:


> Fuji just blew Luffy away without using haki to injure the rubberman. This guy had rubble with the size of Dressrosa at his disposal and could've ended everything with a gesture.



I don't remember that doing much of anything due to blunt force immunity.  Unless it's sharp objects which luffy has future sight to see throwing junk at him isn't going to do much of anything. A proper COC COA  bitchslap should drive the point home should have been the default,  if that level of COC was there from the beginning.


TheWiggian said:


> Burgess never put up much of a fight. He was a plot device to hold Sabo in place, away from Doflamingo. Burgess haki was so weak that he could not even make a novice logia user tangible with a free shot. Sabo on the other hand had portrayal of using advanced armament and it did nothing to Fujitora even coupled with the mera firepower.


I feel Burgess being a plot device would have made more sense if Fujitora had actually put Sabo in a noticeably weakened state.  I don't recall Sabo ever making such a comment and his fight left him unable to perform below capacity.


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## Turrin (Feb 15, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> Against Fujitora that merits it.
> 
> He's the second in command to the Revo's who were strong enough to actually engage the admirals.  He should have had higher level of haki over luffy at that stage.
> 
> ...


I was talking against Burgess. And for Fujitora it was more about testing out his new DF Powers then using Haki against him; albeit again I’m not saying DR Sabo can sky split


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## Mihawk (Feb 15, 2022)

Kanki said:


> But we haven't seen what Fujitora is capable of.



Exactly


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## Canute87 (Feb 15, 2022)

Turrin said:


> I was talking against Burgess. And for Fujitora it was more about testing out his new DF Powers then using Haki against him; albeit again I’m not saying DR Sabo can sky split



And I'm saying that If he wants to end it which clearly was his motivation a COC attack would do just that.

COC haki had Zoro fucking up dudes with crazy durability.


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## Turrin (Feb 15, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> And I'm saying that If he wants to end it which clearly was his motivation a COC attack would do just that.
> 
> COC haki had Zoro fucking up dudes with crazy durability.


Your making an assumption that his Level of CoC is stronger offensively then his Mera Fruit attacks, which I don’t know if that’s true. CoC Coating isn’t better then all of a persons other attacks


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## Eustathios (Feb 15, 2022)

Equal. Luffy is Yonko level now.


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## Canute87 (Feb 15, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Your making an assumption that his Level of CoC is stronger offensively then his Mera Fruit attacks, which I don’t know if that’s true. CoC Coating isn’t better then all of a persons other attacks


The thing is a  newly gained mera shouldn't be able to compete with kaido level COC.


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## Turrin (Feb 15, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> The thing is a  newly gained mera shouldn't be able to compete with kaido level COC.


Who said it could? I just said Sabo could have CoC Coating on Par with Say Yamato, which is obviously much weaker then Kaidou’s CoC Coating


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## Eustathios (Feb 15, 2022)

High diff implies Meme would need the same difficulty against him, which doesn't seem likely.


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## Canute87 (Feb 15, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Who said it could? I just said Sabo could have CoC Coating on Par with Say Yamato, which is obviously much weaker then Kaidou’s CoC Coating


The kaido level COC is in relation to Fujitora.

Luffy was still losing out to kaido even though he can split the sky so it doesn't seem sky split is a sign of equality.

If Sabo has  that level of COC that yamato has Burgess should not be able to take that when yamato actually one shot an ancient zoan with that attack.  And Sabo's dragon techniques should make that even more disastrous.  Zoro and yamato have managed to do interesting things with the COC haki so unless sabo can't imbue coc haki at all there's no way the mera could make up for that against fujitora's possible COC imbued attacks.


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## Turrin (Feb 15, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> The kaido level COC is in relation to Fujitora.
> 
> Luffy was still losing out to kaido even though he can split the sky so it doesn't seem sky split is a sign of equality.
> 
> If Sabo has  that level of COC that yamato has Burgess should not be able to take that when yamato actually one shot an ancient zoan with that attack.  And Sabo's dragon techniques should make that even more disastrous.  Zoro and yamato have managed to do interesting things with the COC haki so unless sabo can't imbue coc haki at all there's no way the mera could make up for that against fujitora's possible COC imbued attacks.


Luffy is barely loosing out, it’s more a sign of being on a similar level.
—-
Why what Anti-Feats does Burgess have against anyone other then Sabo to say Burgess isn’t just that strong. 
—-
I don’t think Yamato’s COC attacks are beyond peak Mera Attacks in AP.


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## Canute87 (Feb 15, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Luffy is barely loosing out, it’s more a sign of being on a similar level.



he lost in the headbutt exchange with kaido after he started drinking.


Turrin said:


> —-
> Why what Anti-Feats does Burgess have against anyone other then Sabo to say Burgess isn’t just that strong.


it's just what we have been exposed to so far.  you expect Burgess with no haki defenses to be tougher than G4 luffy and an ancient Zoan?


Turrin said:


> —-
> I don’t think Yamato’s COC attacks are beyond peak Mera Attacks in AP.


peak Mera would be like the entei but sabo didn't show that.

Much of the impact force with sabo was done with this dragon techniques. The dragon techniques are very powerful within itself, adding a coc element to that should be on a whole other level.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 15, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> He's the second in command to the Revo's who were strong enough to actually engage the admirals.  He should have had higher level of haki over luffy at that stage.



Marco, King, Katakuri. All of them sit in the same boat as him, no one is there with AdvCoC.   



Canute87 said:


> Sabo at the very least was definitely the second strongest person on dressrosa. If Fujitora has Kaido's level of COC usage there wouldn't be a proper clash at all. Sabo would get his ass completely folded without him even needing to bend a town.



Arguable. Sabo got his ass folded, the scan was posted in the previous response and Fujitora was far away from going all out or being serious. 



Canute87 said:


> Sabo wasn't in all that bad of a state.  he's in a clear better position than Luffy when he first met Kado



For someone you hold in such high regard, it would be weird for Sabo to be in Luffy's condition after Kaido against a dicking around Fujitora. Do you expect Fujitora to stomp characters that you believe can split the sky?



Canute87 said:


> We've seen what a Kaido level COC user does to someone who doesn't have it.



Dunno, Kinemon was mighty fine and in fighting condition alongside the other scabbards after he went up against Kaido. 



Canute87 said:


> I don't remember that doing much of anything due to blunt force immunity.  Unless it's sharp objects which luffy has future sight to see throwing junk at him isn't going to do much of anything. A proper COC COA  bitchslap should drive the point home should have been the default,  if that level of COC was there from the beginning.



It would destroy the land mass and ships, leaving Luffy to drown.



Canute87 said:


> I feel Burgess being a plot device would have made more sense if Fujitora had actually put Sabo in a noticeably weakened state.  I don't recall Sabo ever making such a comment and his fight left him unable to perform below capacity.



Sabo did say he would have his hands full with Burgess despite destroying him badly in each clash. So that portrayal is pretty weird, fact remains that Fuji never went all out against Sabo and Sabo against Burgess.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Perrin (Feb 15, 2022)

Fuji is a strong creature

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Canute87 (Feb 15, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Marco, King, Katakuri. All of them sit in the same boat as him, no one is there with AdvCoC.


Indeed they are not.  At it should stand to reason they none of them should be able to clash with a user using AdvCOC.  


TheWiggian said:


> Arguable. Sabo got his ass folded, the scan was posted in the previous response and Fujitora was far away from going all out or being serious.


Sabo did not get his ass folded.  Look on the likes of Udon luffy,  Scabbards, Rooftop Luffy, and Rooftop Luffy again for folded reference. 

Sabo wasn't in any bad shape as he did not  exhaust  himself trying to hurt him.  

They stopped and had a discussion and the fight was over. 


TheWiggian said:


> For someone you hold in such high regard, it would be weird for Sabo to be in Luffy's condition after Kaido against a dicking around Fujitora. Do you expect Fujitora to stomp characters that you believe can split the sky?


If Fujitora has this kind of haki then splitting the sky would have been the natural occurrence.  Because of the constant clashes between him and Sabo. 

Why would Fujitora use Ferocious  Tiger and not an advanced COC shield or attacks?

Pre-ragnarok Kaido just did a simple swing and luffy's arms were pulsating in pain despite using hardening to block it. Simply because he was using COC attacks.



TheWiggian said:


> Dunno, Kinemon was mighty fine and in fighting condition alongside the other scabbards after he went up against Kaido.


Well after kaido was out of his PSTD and stupid dragon form he pretty much bent them all in a 7/9 vs 1.


TheWiggian said:


> It would destroy the land mass and ships, leaving Luffy to drown.



If flamingo and Law were able to still find footing after a meteor strike i doubt luffy will be in any danger from falling cement and wood. Especially when he can fly in base, fly g4 and can rocket propel himself.


TheWiggian said:


> Sabo did say he would have his hands full with Burgess despite destroying him badly in each clash. So that portrayal is pretty weird, fact remains that Fuji never went all out against Sabo and Sabo against Burgess.


The extent that Fujitora didn't go all out cannot be so severely restricted  to him not using adCOC.  The dude was pulling meteors from space to attack Sabo.  Why exactly would be not be using advCOC?  Far more effective  in the current situation with a shitless load collateral .


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## TheWiggian (Feb 15, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> Indeed they are not.  At it should stand to reason they none of them should be able to clash with a user using AdvCOC.



King did.  



Canute87 said:


> Sabo did not get his ass folded.  Look on the likes of Udon luffy,  Scabbards, Rooftop Luffy, and Rooftop Luffy again for folded reference.
> 
> Sabo wasn't in any bad shape as he did not  exhaust  himself trying to hurt him.
> 
> They stopped and had a discussion and the fight was over.



He looked inferior while Fujitora never tried anything seriously against him anyway.



Canute87 said:


> If Fujitora has this kind of haki then splitting the sky would have been the natural occurrence.  Because of the constant clashes between him and Sabo.
> 
> Why would Fujitora use Ferocious  Tiger and not an advanced COC shield or attacks?
> 
> Pre-ragnarok Kaido just did a simple swing and luffy's arms were pulsating in pain despite using hardening to block it. Simply because he was using COC attacks.



Why would Issho need that against ants like luffy, zoro and sabo? The guy was mostly testing his DF powers throughout DR. He even commented on it at least once aswell and the only instance he used armament in was to protect his blade from the birdcage.



Canute87 said:


> Well after kaido was out of his PSTD and stupid dragon form he pretty much bent them all in a 7/9 vs 1.



Doesn't take away from the fact that they all took it better than G4 Luffy. 



Canute87 said:


> If flamingo and Law were able to still find footing after a meteor strike i doubt luffy will be in any danger from falling cement and wood. Especially when he can fly in base, fly g4 and can rocket propel himself.



They cut the meteor from destroying the ground they're standing on. There was literally an island sized rubble amount above DR. Luffy already had issues maneuvering around some buildings turning into strings from Doflamingo.



Canute87 said:


> The extent that Fujitora didn't go all out cannot be so severely restricted  to him not using adCOC. The dude was pulling meteors from space to attack Sabo. Why exactly would be not be using advCOC?  Far more effective in the current situation with a shitless load collateral .



As stated previously, Issho never attempted to go seriously all out and was mostly testing his newly found DF powers.


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## Canute87 (Feb 15, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> King did.



Not after Zoro awakening.  He got mercilessly cut down.



TheWiggian said:


> He looked inferior while Fujitora never tried anything seriously against him anyway
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But why would there  a pride element all of a sudden to using adCOC haki   A meteor is clearly a more devastating thing to use than  advCOC shield.


He was testing his powers against law and Flamingo .  He wasn't testing his powers against Sabo.


TheWiggian said:


> Doesn't take away from the fact that they all took it better than G4 Luffy.


Did he bagua them?  He was just swinging and they had like 6 other people to share the ppain.


TheWiggian said:


> They cut the meteor from destroying the ground they're standing on. There was literally an island sized rubble amount above DR. Luffy already had issues maneuvering around some buildings turning into strings from Doflamingo.



Yeah but now luffy has more skill sets and is even more resilient now.  luffy will see exactly when he needs to move to and close the distance. he can also put his hands up like an umbrella.  His hardening should also be able to break the rocks seeing that he's actually taking headbutts from kaido,.

Yeah i don't see that rubble thing being any threat to luffy.


TheWiggian said:


> As stated previously, Issho never attempted to go seriously all out and was mostly testing his newly found DF powers.


advcoc is a simple thing for folks  who have it to use.  It's way less work than pulling meteors from space.


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## Van Basten (Feb 15, 2022)

Probably Luffy very extreme diff.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (Feb 15, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> he lost in the headbutt exchange with kaido after he started drinking.
> 
> it's just what we have been exposed to so far.  you expect Burgess with no haki defenses to be tougher than G4 luffy and an ancient Zoan?
> 
> ...


1) Yeah he is barely loosing, they are still similar level

2) Why can’t he be tougher? If he fights Sanji we know he’s going to be stronger then Queen.

3) The Dragon Techs could be accomplished through CoC to start with.


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## Canute87 (Feb 15, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) Yeah he is barely loosing, they are still similar level


I have a different opinion on that.


Turrin said:


> 2) Why can’t he be tougher? If he fights Sanji we know he’s going to be stronger then Queen.


Not at dressrosa. 


Turrin said:


> 3) The Dragon Techs could be accomplished through CoC to start with.


He was going to teach Robin it.  So doubt it.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 15, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> Not after Zoro awakening.  He got mercilessly cut down.



Still fought him. 



Canute87 said:


> But why would there  a pride element all of a sudden to using adCOC haki  A meteor is clearly a more devastating thing to use than  advCOC shield.
> 
> 
> He was testing his powers against law and Flamingo.  He wasn't testing his powers against Sabo.



Used same moves as against Doffy, Law and Luffy.   



Canute87 said:


> Did he bagua them? He was just swinging and they had like 6 other people to share the ppain.



Multiple swings that makes Luffy's arms pulsate despite armament > single bagua.



Canute87 said:


> Yeah but now luffy has more skill sets and is even more resilient now.  luffy will see exactly when he needs to move to and close the distance. he can also put his hands up like an umbrella.  His hardening should also be able to break the rocks seeing that he's actually taking headbutts from kaido,.
> 
> Yeah i don't see that rubble thing being any threat to luffy.



Island sized rubble, who knows... Who says that's the limit of Fuji's abilities? He showcased CoO and reach to the outer space.



Canute87 said:


> advcoc is a simple thing for folks  who have it to use.  It's way less work than pulling meteors from space.



How do you know? Haki is portrayed with a limited pool far below physical stamina in this story.


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## Fel1x (Feb 15, 2022)

when admiral fans realized their RT5 hype train actually screwed their main agenda

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Captain Altintop (Feb 15, 2022)

Right after Kaido's fight with being regenerated to full fresh state, he would win *extreme*-ish diff. against Fuji.


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## Turrin (Feb 15, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> I have a different opinion on that.
> 
> Not at dressrosa.
> 
> He was going to teach Robin it.  So doubt it.


Well I mean this is what we are factually shown so I don’t think you can have a difference of opinion.

Im saying Sabo accomplishes his Dragon Techs with COc


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## arv993 (Feb 15, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> Exactly


Then luffy > Fuji until then. Unless the dude has superior hype, which he does not.


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## Canute87 (Feb 15, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Still fought him.



Yeah but if King had fought a zoro who could use COC much less advanced coc  at the start it would have been short lived.


TheWiggian said:


> Used same moves as against Doffy, Law and Luffy.



Kaido has been using the same moves to.  If it works it works.



TheWiggian said:


> Multiple swings that makes Luffy's arms pulsate despite armament > single bagua.



I can't say i agree with  that. Accumulated damage over time isn't more likely  to knock you out more than one powerful strike. Especially when there's recovery time as you have 6 other people sharing the love beatings.



TheWiggian said:


> Island sized rubble, who knows... Who says that's the limit of Fuji's abilities?


Nobody knows.  I just don't see him overpowering Luffy's haki with his own at this stage.  Fujitora's intensity so far has come mostly from his DF.  


TheWiggian said:


> He showcased CoO and reach to the outer space.


Not sure if seeing cloud movement is more impressive than seeing into the future.  Not sure if the meteor pull was a COO feat.  When he did the pull with the birdcage and got the smaller meteor he did notice the strength of it wasn't the same but not sure at which point he sensed that. 


TheWiggian said:


> How do you know? Haki is portrayed with a limited pool far below physical stamina in this story.


Overuse of it does that ,Something only luffy has shown to exhaust because of Gear 4,

Seeing that Big Mom and kaido was using it for hours against each other it's not that precious of a supply and it's not as if anybody haki depletes before they lose. And any admiral has stamina for days on end so him using a few COC attacks will do little to nothing to him.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 15, 2022)

Luffy 30
Fuji 20

The gap is only going to get wider when we see Luffy and Kaidou use their strongest forms/attaxks and be evenly matched.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 16, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> Yeah but if King had fought a zoro who could use COC much less advanced coc  at the start it would have been short lived.



You're mistaken it with a swordsmans lethality here + AdvCoC was a boost on top that allowed him to damage King easier.



Canute87 said:


> Kaido has been using the same moves to. If it works it works.







Canute87 said:


> I can't say i agree with  that. Accumulated damage over time isn't more likely  to knock you out more than one powerful strike. Especially when there's recovery time as you have 6 other people sharing the love beatings.



6 characters that are actually far weaker than Luffy but still take it better than him.



Canute87 said:


> Nobody knows. I just don't see him overpowering Luffy's haki with his own at this stage. Fujitora's intensity so far has come mostly from his DF.



Exactly, nobody knows. It can still be a possibility. As if Kaido's intensity isn't coming mostly from his DF.



Canute87 said:


> Not sure if seeing cloud movement is more impressive than seeing into the future.  Not sure if the meteor pull was a COO feat. When he did the pull with the birdcage and got the smaller meteor he did notice the strength of it wasn't the same but not sure at which point he sensed that.



Scanning for objects in space while you are on earth is a mighty impressive feat, easily above looking 1-2 seconds in the future imo. Guess it depends what you like more.

Funny thing is that Fujitora been hinted to have future sight at Green Bit as well and that over a massive range.



Canute87 said:


> Overuse of it does that ,Something only luffy has shown to exhaust because of Gear 4,



So something that was already established Vs something non-existent. Think this point is done for.



Canute87 said:


> Seeing that Big Mom and kaido was using it for hours against each other it's not that precious of a supply and *it's not as if anybody haki depletes before they lose.*



Luffy disagrees, Zoro too.



Canute87 said:


> And any admiral has stamina for days on end so him using a few COC attacks will do little to nothing to him.



Yea stamina, not haki unless you believe they're both the same.


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## Canute87 (Feb 16, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> You're mistaken it with a swordsmans lethality here + AdvCoC was a boost on top that allowed him to damage King easier.


What do you mean my mistaken? the COC  attacks from Zoro  should have been considerably stronger than the attacks he was using before.
There's a special durability aspect to guys like King and Kaido so cuts aren't going to hurt them more than punches. 

I have the impression that you're saying that because Fujitora was using the same attacks on different people he was still testing his DF  The Bagua is still Kaido's most effective move and he has used in on multiple people.


TheWiggian said:


> 6 characters that are actually far weaker than Luffy but still take it better than him.


Take what?  Unnamed attacks?  kaido was slapping them away the only difference is that luffy was the only person fighting him so kaido could actually follow up with the ragnarok.  He had 5 other people to contend with.



TheWiggian said:


> Exactly, nobody knows. It can still be a possibility. As if Kaido's intensity isn't coming mostly from his DF.



Base luffy with sandals was able to block an attack from Hybrid Kaido.  The haki is clearly the intensity driver  here.


TheWiggian said:


> Scanning for objects in space while you are on earth is a mighty impressive feat, easily above looking 1-2 seconds in the future imo. Guess it depends what you like more.



Seeing into space doesn't have more importance than seeing the enemy in front of you.  So yeah I take the future.


TheWiggian said:


> Funny thing is that Fujitora been hinted to have future sight at Green Bit as well and that over a massive range.



Well if Fujitora has future sight, better sensing COO,  powerful Haki and a powerful DF probably even awakened and shit.  Then that clearly goes beyond the COC possibility. 


TheWiggian said:


> So something that was already established Vs something non-existent. Think this point is done for.
> 
> 
> 
> Luffy disagrees, Zoro too.



King , Queen,  Who's who , all lost before having their haki depleted.


TheWiggian said:


> Yea stamina, not haki unless you* believe they're both the same.*


Probably  not because luffy can recover from haki depletion.

But the point is that the haki thing isn't that much of an issue.  Seeing that Luffy  via Gear 4 and Zoro (who has a sword that forcefully draws out haki) has suffered from this from a usage point that no other character suffered from,  it won't be an issue. 

Fujitora doesn't have a sword that forcefully draws out haki so him using COC attacks for a few minutes ain't going to do nothing........to him.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 16, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> What do you mean my mistaken? the COC  attacks from Zoro  should have been considerably stronger than the attacks he was using before.
> There's a special durability aspect to guys like King and Kaido so cuts aren't going to hurt them more than punches.



Zoro despite gaining AdvCoC stating there is no point of cutting King if the flame is one. He was able to cut him before AdvCoC.



Canute87 said:


> I have the impression that you're saying that because Fujitora was using the same attacks on different people he was still testing his DF  The Bagua is still Kaido's most effective move and he has used in on multiple people.



With the difference that Fujitora's gravity powers are new in his arsenal.



Canute87 said:


> Take what?  Unnamed attacks?  kaido was slapping them away the only difference is that luffy was the only person fighting him so kaido could actually follow up with the ragnarok.  He had 5 other people to contend with.



Same unnamed attacks that slapped Luffy away, it's like you forgot those panels on purpose lol.



Canute87 said:


> Base luffy with sandals was able to block an attack from Hybrid Kaido.  The haki is clearly the intensity driver here.



Calm down we compared Issho and Kaido not Issho and Luffy. 



Canute87 said:


> Seeing into space doesn't have more importance than seeing the enemy in front of you. So yeah I take the future.



I take massively higher range with 100times better precision. 



Canute87 said:


> Well if Fujitora has future sight, better sensing COO,  powerful Haki and a powerful DF probably even awakened and shit.  Then that clearly goes beyond the COC possibility.



Fujitora is a top tier. We have multiple characters that have an amazing arsenal with powercreep at hand.



Canute87 said:


> King , Queen,  Who's who , all lost before having their haki depleted.



Doesn't change the fact that it happened to Luffy.



Canute87 said:


> Probably not because luffy can recover from haki depletion.
> 
> But the point is that the haki thing isn't that much of an issue.  *Seeing that Luffy* via Gear 4 *and Zoro* (who has a sword that forcefully draws out haki) *has suffered from this from a usage* point that *no other character suffered from*,  it *won't be an issue.*



So in the end you consider the possibility that Fujitora could compete or even overpower or outlast Luffy after making a statement as this:

_"I just don't see him overpowering Luffy's haki with his own at this stage."_



Canute87 said:


> Fujitora doesn't have a sword that forcefully draws out haki so him using COC attacks for a few minutes ain't going to do nothing........to him.



Same as above. Luffy has inconsistent haki portrayal. He ran out multiple times out of haki and had to recover thanks to his devilfruit. He also lost post AdvCoC with Kaido hinting at Luffy's haki pool running dry again.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Feb 16, 2022)

I can’t believe fuji>kaido is an opinion that exists

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Turrin (Feb 16, 2022)

Doesn’t this scene confirm Fujitora has CoC coating:

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Ludi (Feb 16, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Doesn’t this scene confirm Fujitora has CoC coating:


Good find

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Feb 16, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Good find


Yeah it seems more like Yamato level then Kaidou Luffy, but even at Yamato level + Gravity DF Amp. Raging Tiger should easily be stronger then what we have seen from Luffy and Kaidou so far; let alone BM.

Not saying Fujitora > Kaidou as I still expect new G4 form for Luffy and potentially awakening from Kaidou, but I definitely think Fujitora is above BM.


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## Canute87 (Feb 16, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Zoro despite gaining AdvCoC stating there is no point of cutting King if the flame is one. He was able to cut him before AdvCoC.



Yeah but the COC attacks hit differently.  If Zoro was in a much better state with adCOC at the beginning I'm not of the impression King could have walked those attacks off as easily as he did the ones before.  The onigiri attacks that king had no issues with would be no different than the attacks that barely put a dent in kaido's neck.


TheWiggian said:


> With the difference that Fujitora's gravity powers are new in his arsenal.


But it's a wicked gain in power. Nobody generally attains a powerful DF and was already casually triggering off COC attacks.


TheWiggian said:


> Same unnamed attacks that slapped Luffy away, it's like you forgot those panels on purpose lol.


They did slap luffy away but it wasn't going to do him in.  Ragnarok and Bagua did that.  Kaido used none of those attacks on the scabbards  on panel from what i remember.



TheWiggian said:


> Calm down we compared Issho and Kaido not Issho and Luffy.



You were saying...(i could be mistaken) that kaido's intensity lies in his DF as well.  That couldn't be the case base luffy was competing him him just because of haki.


TheWiggian said:


> I take massively higher range with 100times better precision.


To each his own.


TheWiggian said:


> Fujitora is a top tier. We have multiple characters that have an amazing arsenal with powercreep at hand.


I don't think we are going to see any power creep haki wise..  What we are going to see is  to see some crazy DF shit. 


TheWiggian said:


> Doesn't change the fact that it happened to Luffy.


But luffy also got knocked out by apoo.  His haki was still in top notch quality at that time too. And Apoo got cut down by Zoro and his haki didn't deplete.  Luffy's haki wasn't also depleted when Kaido knocked him out with the ragarok.

 So while no haki means defeated , defeated doesn't mean no haki.



TheWiggian said:


> So in the end you consider the possibility that Fujitora could compete or even overpower or outlast Luffy after making a statement as this:
> 
> _"I just don't see him overpowering Luffy's haki with his own at this stage."_



With the combination of things Fujitora has in his arsenal,  primarily his gravity powers  yes, 

With COC haki  and physical strength (whatever that means these days) ,   no.  


TheWiggian said:


> Same as above. Luffy has inconsistent haki portrayal. He ran out multiple times out of haki and had to recover thanks to his devilfruit. He also lost post AdvCoC with Kaido hinting at Luffy's haki pool running dry again.



He ran out multiple times because the first time he had to use G4 to attack kaido.  Luffy doesn't NEED to go G4 to FIGHT Fujitora so the haki depletion thing we are used to probably won't occur.  

Who knows exactly why he lose to Kaido the first ring knockout, according to kaido his technique was lackluster.


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## TheWiggian (Feb 16, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> Yeah but the COC attacks hit differently.  If Zoro was in a much better state with adCOC at the beginning I'm not of the impression King could have walked those attacks off as easily as he did the ones before.  The onigiri attacks that king had no issues with would be no different than the attacks that barely put a dent in kaido's neck.



In flame off mode.



Canute87 said:


> But it's a wicked gain in power. Nobody generally attains a powerful DF and was already casually triggering off COC attacks.



Assumption.



Canute87 said:


> They did slap luffy away but it wasn't going to do him in.  Ragnarok and Bagua did that.  Kaido used none of those attacks on the scabbards  on panel from what i remember.



Only the first time they hit him.



Canute87 said:


> You were saying...(i could be mistaken) that kaido's intensity lies in his DF as well.  That couldn't be the case base luffy was competing him him just because of haki.



It does. If he didn't have his raw stats and abilites, that mostly come from the DF, AdvCoC wouldn't give him much. 



Canute87 said:


> I don't think we are going to see any power creep haki wise..  What we are going to see is  to see some crazy DF shit.



We already did this arc. 3 times actually 2.0 and 3.0 armament + advCoC.



Canute87 said:


> But luffy also got knocked out by apoo. His haki was still in top notch quality at that time too. And Apoo got cut down by Zoro and his haki didn't deplete. Luffy's haki wasn't also depleted when Kaido knocked him out with the ragarok.



Luffy needs to recharge his haki from time to time, this was shown multiple times. Arguing about it is pathetic.



Canute87 said:


> So while no haki means defeated , defeated doesn't mean no haki.



Just like absence of evidence is not evidence of absence? Yet i've seen you give Luffy the clear nod in haki.   



Canute87 said:


> With the combination of things Fujitora has in his arsenal, primarily his gravity powers yes,
> 
> With COC haki  and physical strength (whatever that means these days) , no.



There goes the double standard from above. 



Canute87 said:


> He ran out multiple times because the first time he had to use G4 to attack kaido.  Luffy doesn't NEED to go G4 to FIGHT Fujitora so the haki depletion thing we are used to probably won't occur.
> 
> Who knows exactly why he lose to Kaido the first ring knockout, according to kaido his technique was lackluster.



Kaido hints at him running out of haki. My guess is he tried to combine G4 with advCoC and failed since there is foreshadowing for this and he takes Kaido down with a successful combination in the future.


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## Canute87 (Feb 16, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> In flame off mode.


If COC attacks are leaving permanent scars on kaido there's no reason why King is going to no sell them while in flame mode.



TheWiggian said:


> Assumption.


It's not a bad one.

Who with top tier COC haki have we  actually seen gain a  powerful DF afterwards?

Mihawk doesn't have a DF and Rayleigh doesn't have a DF.




TheWiggian said:


> Only the first time they hit him.


He used Bagua on the Scabbards?



TheWiggian said:


> It does. If he didn't have his raw stats and abilites, that mostly come from the DF, AdvCoC wouldn't give him much.


But that means  then luffy's raw stats are comparable with an Mythical  Zoan from a non-human entity who' s naturally superior to humans.



TheWiggian said:


> We already did this arc. 3 times actually 2.0 and 3.0 armament + advCoC.


All things that Kaido already has.  Luffy and CO are playing catchup to that.  We aren't going to see a whole new level of haki.




TheWiggian said:


> Luffy needs to recharge his haki from time to time, this was shown multiple times. Arguing about it is pathetic.


He needs to recharge his haki when he goes G4 from a prolonged period of time.



TheWiggian said:


> Just like absence of evidence is not evidence of absence? Yet i've seen you give Luffy the clear nod in haki.


i mean i have been using the sabo interaction as justification.

But we a have different opinions in how much you think Fujitora was holding back or what even constitutes hold back in this instance.
It's a weird dynamic to put Kaido level advanced COC  on Fujiora and then claim his more massively destructive capabilities are lesser than him using COC based attacks.

Advanced COC haki can be put in a basic swing and bitches get flung.



TheWiggian said:


> There goes the double standard from above.





TheWiggian said:


> Kaido hints at him running out of haki. My guess is he tried to combine G4 with advCoC and failed since there is foreshadowing for this and he takes Kaido down with a successful combination in the future.


"You gained new power and you got overconfident , but your technique needs work...what was it  'Gomu Gomu".

Where does  the hint of haki depletion come into that.


Was luffy using G2 and G3 prior to first ring out?





Edit:   Wiggan  my Haki is running dry.  I have about one more post  left in me

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Conxc (Feb 16, 2022)

more Luffy wank. Fantastic

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 16, 2022)

Canute87 said:


> If COC attacks are leaving permanent scars on kaido there's no reason why King is going to no sell them while in flame mode.



He never really been injured in flame mode except for the double spread with Sanji i believe, but Queen confirmed they didn't feel shit.  



Canute87 said:


> It's not a bad one.
> 
> Who with top tier COC haki have we  actually seen gain a  powerful DF afterwards?
> 
> Mihawk doesn't have a DF and Rayleigh doesn't have a DF.



Who knows, can be literally every character that will be introduced in the future.



Canute87 said:


> He used Bagua on the Scabbards?



He used AdvCoC on Kinemon which was very impressive.



Canute87 said:


> But that means then luffy's raw stats are comparable with an Mythical Zoan from a non-human entity who' s naturally superior to humans.



Or it's just bad writing with no explanation, or the enemy is weakened like with Doffy and Kata.



Canute87 said:


> All things that Kaido already has. Luffy and CO are playing catchup to that.  We aren't going to see a whole new level of haki.



Assumption, Oda just introduced/explained 3 new levels in a single arc and you think it's gauranteed we won't see a new one?



Canute87 said:


> He needs to recharge his haki when he goes G4 from a prolonged period of time.



At least we agree here. Luffy needs to recharge his haki.



Canute87 said:


> i mean i have been using the sabo interaction as justification.
> 
> But we a have different opinions in how much you think Fujitora was holding back or what even constitutes hold back in this instance.
> It's a weird dynamic to put Kaido level advanced COC  on Fujiora and then claim his more massively destructive capabilities are lesser than him using COC based attacks.
> ...



Luffy is a bitch now? I thought he cannot be matched by a top tier in haki anymore?



Canute87 said:


> "You gained new power and you got overconfident , but your technique needs work...what was it  'Gomu Gomu".
> 
> Where does  the hint of haki depletion come into that.




*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 











Canute87 said:


> Was luffy using G2 and G3 prior to first ring out?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Time to end this then:


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## Canute87 (Feb 16, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> He never really been injured in flame mode except for the double spread with Sanji i believe, but Queen confirmed they didn't feel shit.



Zoro wasn't using the COC haki at the first onigiri.  King would be singing a different tune if he did.


TheWiggian said:


> Who knows, can be literally every character that will be introduced in the future.


We shall see. 



TheWiggian said:


> He used AdvCoC on Kinemon which was very impressive.


Yeah but the force of the bagua and ragnorak reigns supreme. 



TheWiggian said:


> Or it's just bad writing with no explanation, or the enemy is weakened like with Doffy and Kata.


Yeah It is bad writing, and Kaido is actually weakened.



TheWiggian said:


> Assumption, Oda just introduced/explained 3 new levels in a single arc and you think it's gauranteed we won't see a new one?


He explained what we already saw you realize he's just recently  explaining things in Wano  we saw from Shabondy?



TheWiggian said:


> At least we agree here. Luffy needs to recharge his haki.
> 
> 
> 
> Luffy is a bitch now? I thought he cannot be matched by a top tier in haki anymore?



I meant bitches respectfully. 


TheWiggian said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is what I'm saying.  This was due to G4.  As long as he doesn't use G4 for a significant period of time His haki won't deplete prematurely.  Does he NEED G4 to fight Fujitora under normal circumstances with what he has now, nope.


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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 16, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Doesn’t this scene confirm Fujitora has CoC coating:


It doesn't. We saw characters without aCoC using that effect, one example being Katakuri


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## Turrin (Feb 16, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> It doesn't. We saw characters without aCoC using that effect, one example being Katakuri


I don’t recall someone using this effect pre attack without CoC coating; it’s usually in a clash’s I would suspect the people who do this in a clash are using some CoC subconsciously


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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 16, 2022)

Turrin said:


> I don’t recall someone using this effect pre attack without CoC coating; it’s usually in a clash’s I would suspect the people who do this in a clash are using some CoC subconsciously


It happened pre clash. I'm pretty sure there were others Like the Katakuri and Fujitora examples , we just didn't notice before aCoC was introduced.


o0Shinthi0o said:


> I always thought BL = Adv COC but as @Nighty the Mighty used this panels i noticed Kata having BL in his punch for first time . This just confused me so much man . What do u guys think ?
> 
> Kata Using Black Lightning :
> 
> ...





And we already knew Katakuri only had CoA and regular CoC, because he needed to make contact to hit Luffy.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Turrin (Feb 16, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> It happened pre clash. I'm pretty sure there were others Like the Katakuri and Fujitora examples , we just didn't notice before aCoC was introduced.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would say that this must be like a subconscious use on a very low level. But Fujitora clearly was consciously doing so rather then in the heat of battle as he specifically charges his attack.

So I agree it doesn’t mean he has CoC Coating on the level of Kaidou and Luffy, but I think it makes CoC Coating on the level of Yamato and Zoro very likely


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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 16, 2022)

Turrin said:


> I would say that this must be like a subconscious use on a very low level. But Fujitora clearly was consciously doing so rather then in the heat of battle as he specifically charges his attack.
> 
> So I agree it doesn’t mean he has CoC Coating on the level of Kaidou and Luffy, but I think it makes CoC Coating on the level of Yamato and Zoro very likely


Or simply it's not CoC. Aside from the black lightning there's no indication that it was CoC. Even at low level, it's missing some of the things that make it aCoC, like not needing contact. There were other instances of this effect by characters without CoC. Just CoA.
Otherwise there's no reason why black lightning emits from multiple non CoC users.




Unless you want to tell us all these non-CoC characters emitting black lightning are using aCoC/CoC.

Both Katakuri and Fujitora are characters who either never had portrayal indicating they had CoC, or never had feats indicating they have aCoC (Katakuri).

WCI Luffy also used it. Again, they both needed contact. There's nothing more "conscious" about what Fujitora used considering he only managed it once.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## RossellaFiamingo (Feb 17, 2022)

Luffy High High Diffs.

Lets be honest here. Law and Kidd would individually push Fuji to extreme difficulty. Luffy is above both of them by a decent margin. Fujitora is a good boy but he and the Admirals are below current/post wano Luffy.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Neutral 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Quipchaque (Feb 17, 2022)

At this point I'd be shocked if he can't. Some of them still look like Katakuri-level by current feats so how could he possibly be lower than admiral level now..?


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## Ezekjuninor (Feb 17, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Doesn’t this scene confirm Fujitora has CoC coating:


No, black lightning has been drawn multiple times without a CoC clash.


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2022)

Ezekjuninor said:


> No, black lightning has been drawn multiple times without a CoC clash.


Yes and it seems to indicate some form of low level CoC Enchantment or Subconscious one


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## Turrin (Feb 17, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Or simply it's not CoC. Aside from the black lightning there's no indication that it was CoC. Even at low level, it's missing some of the things that make it aCoC, like not needing contact. There were other instances of this effect by characters without CoC. Just CoA.
> Otherwise there's no reason why black lightning emits from multiple non CoC users.
> 
> 
> ...


CoC doesn’t always create those ghost hits, it only does when the user is not only applying CoC to their attacks but also the mechanics of CoA 2.0. This is why low level subconscious CoC coating would not create these ghost hits as they are not controlling the CoC and applying CoA 2.0 mechanics to it.
—-
Yeah I think logically the answer is those characters are CoC users and are subconsciously applying some level of CoC coating to their attacks without realizing it. Just like how we saw Luffy using basic CoC subconsciously many times before he actually mastered the ability to use it consciously. The proof is the black lightening which Oda is specifically telling us is CoC being applied to an attack, we don’t really need anymore then that. You like a lot of people see  to be assuming all CoC Coating is like Kaidou / Luffy level usage of it, when I think we have pretty clearly seen there is major difference in levels of CoC Coating
—-
Fujitora actually charged his attack willfully with CoC, that shows he likely understand the basic concept that attacks can be charged with CoC. As opposed to the other examples your showing where characters simply are throwing these CoC attacks Mid battle and are likely unconscious usages of CoC coating.


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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> *Yeah I think logically the answer is those characters are CoC users and are subconsciously applying some level of CoC coating to their attacks without realizing it. *Just like how we saw Luffy using basic CoC subconsciously many times before he actually mastered the ability to use it consciously. The proof is the black lightening which Oda is specifically telling us is CoC being applied to an attack, we don’t really need anymore then that. You like a lot of people see  to be assuming all CoC Coating is like Kaidou / Luffy level usage of it, when I think we have pretty clearly seen there is major difference in levels of CoC Coating
> —-


Except there are visual differences between the CoA lightning effects and CoC Lightning effects. It's not that apparent in black and white but when animated it's pretty clear. CoC lightning shows up as black and red.


Oda never said black lightning is used exclusively for CoC. Darker lightning seen on panel from non-CoC attacks show up in different colors. Not black and red.


. You're making a pretty big leap to assume all those characters have CoC, when people who've seen or have actual CoC don't recognize them as CoC attacks. Meaning despite those clashes they aren't considered CoC users by anyone. The pictures I posted was just a small sample of such clashes and attacks that had black lightning. If your assumption was true then about 1/4 to 1/3 of all post skip haki users with CoA hardening feats have CoC. That's obviously highly unlikely and contradicts what's been established about CoC.

Burden of proof is on you to prove Oda said black lightning is drawn only for CoC.


Turrin said:


> Turrin said:
> 
> 
> > Fujitora actually charged his attack willfully with CoC, that shows he likely understand the basic concept that attacks can be charged with CoC. As opposed to the other examples your showing where characters simply are throwing these CoC attacks Mid battle and are likely unconscious usages of CoC coating.


Whatever he did wasn't any more willful than what WCI Luffy and Katakuri did. Confirmed aCoC users don't even pause mid battle to "charge" aCoC like that. If anything it shows how amateur he is at it. And considering he only managed to do it once, it's unlikely he has mastery over it if he actually had aCoC.


The assumption that all black lightning = CoC has already been debunked on reddit.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2022)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Except there are visual differences between the CoA lightning effects and CoC Lightning effects. It's not that apparent in black and white but when animated it's pretty clear. CoC lightning shows up as black and red.
> 
> 
> Oda never said black lightning is used exclusively for CoC. Darker lightning seen on panel from non-CoC attacks show up in different colors. Not black and red.
> ...


I don’t think the Anime is a good counter evidence as not only does the Anime make stylistic choices that aren’t Oda’s but adds in its own filler content all the time. In the manga we we consistently see CoC is associated with Black Lightening. I was actually literally one of the first people to point this out on the forum and argue that CoC was being utilized this way before the reveal from Kaidou and Luffy because it was so consistent.
—-
I don’t think it’s really hard to imagine the Pirates your showing have CoC. So far you have only shown me Katakuri, Doflamingo, and Ulti they are all top new world pirates. And the proof they have some level of CoC is the black lightening which has been drawn exclusively associated with CoC. Your the one that really has the burden of proof to show this is not the case, and we have a character who couldn’t possibly have CoC showing this effect.
——
WCI Luffy and Katakuri only had this effect when throwing attacks, we never saw them charge an attack with black lightening before throwing it. So there usage was more subconscious and Fujitora was more conscious; that is a difference.
—-
That Reddit thread doesn’t Seem to be a debunk to me, it more or less just seems like the author of it can’t accept certain characters have CoC, and therefore is arguing black lightening can’t be associated with CoC, because of his own presupposition that the characters can’t have it. That’s not actually evidence of anything.


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## Gabzy (Feb 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Doesn’t this scene confirm Fujitora has CoC coating:


Yes, just like Franky


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2022)

Gabzy said:


> Yes, just like Franky


Yeah I have no problem with Franky subconsciously using CoC.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Captain Altintop (Feb 18, 2022)

Fuji will be an ally, just wait. He's mocking Akainu most times ...


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## Chip Skylark (Feb 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Yeah I have no problem with Franky subconsciously using CoC.


wow

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> wow


 Do I really need to go through this again with the OL for the 50th time, where you guys underestimate the growth potential of certain characters. Like how you guys argued with me about Law being YFM/YC level prior to the Roof-Top and BM fight. Despite all logic and reasoning point to them being at least that strong going into that fight based on obvious arc gains?

Please learn from your mistakes OL. Franky beat F6 member who appear to be about YC4 Tier that means he will probably be YC3/YFM level by the time of his next big fight just like Law went from YC4 (or lower) level to near Top Tier in his next fight; a character with YFM+ potentially having the beginning of CoC isn’t surprising at all.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## BenMazino01 (Feb 24, 2022)

Current Luffy is Yonkō Class.. I don't see him losing here..


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## Duhul10 (Feb 24, 2022)

Wait, now the new trend is Fujitora having adcoc?  good thing he "used it", else bandaged G3 dressrosa Luffy would've easily overpowered him


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## Turrin (Feb 24, 2022)

Duhul10 said:


> Wait, now the new trend is Fujitora having adcoc?  good thing he "used it", else bandaged G3 dressrosa Luffy would've easily overpowered him


Yeah just like Drunk Kaidou needed CoC coating to not be overpowered by G3 Luffy too:

It’s almost like Oda just daws these scenes for tension before Luffy gets clapped and they don’t mean anything

Reactions: Funny 1


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## VileNotice (Feb 24, 2022)

Fuji extreme now, Luffy extreme after the post-Kaido haki bloom

This could change based on what happens with awakening


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## MO (Feb 24, 2022)

wow Luffy is winning the poll.  I think he wins.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 24, 2022)

MO said:


> wow Luffy is winning the poll.  I think he wins.


 
Means that in every poll Big Mom loses which is happening 99% of the time she loses them right?

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## MO (Feb 24, 2022)

TheWiggian said:


> Means that in every poll Big Mom loses which is happening 99% of the time she loses them right?


big mom isn't the topic but still can't help yourself from bringing her up. A stan for real.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## OG sama (Feb 24, 2022)

Yikes,  if he gets an awakening this arc on top of all these advanced Hakis then damn.

I’m going to say either way, but a Luffy with an awakening and AdvCoC is definitely ahead of Fuji, Fuji might as well just admit defeat when that time comes.

Cant believe how incredibly strong Luffy has already gotten and he’s about to show more? That’s wild honestly, it’s obvious there will only be one man ahead of Luffy after this arc, and that is probably going to be Blackbeard.

Reactions: Like 4


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## arv993 (Feb 24, 2022)

OG sama said:


> Yikes,  if he gets an awakening this arc on top of all these advanced Hakis then damn.
> 
> I’m going to say either way, but a Luffy with an awakening and AdvCoC is definitely ahead of Fuji, Fuji might as well just admit defeat when that time comes.
> 
> Cant believe how incredibly strong Luffy has already gotten and he’s about to show more? That’s wild honestly, it’s obvious there will only be one man ahead of Luffy after this arc, and that is probably going to be Blackbeard.


Luffy has to move onwards and upwards, fujitora and the like will be dealt by his subordinates.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Gabzy (Feb 24, 2022)

I want to know if these people who think the admirals are above yonkous will keep the same energy when sanji starts beating the shit out of kizaru or green bull

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Feb 24, 2022)

MO said:


> big mom isn't the topic but still can't help yourself from bringing her up. A stan for real.


I never claimed the opposite 

I am a big fan of Big Mom.


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## Sherlōck (Feb 25, 2022)

Gabzy said:


> I want to know *if these people who think the admirals are above yonkous* will keep the same energy when sanji starts beating the shit out of kizaru or green bull



And that means Sanji will be Yonko level.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Mihawk (Feb 25, 2022)

The admiral downplay in Wano stems from 2 main reasons:

1) their feats are outdated bc they are not present or relevant in the arc;
2) the introduction of new mechanics and abilities, which they cannot be proven to have or not have due to the above reason.

They are still among the greatest fighters in the world by virtue of being part of the established world powers, thus making them top tier. Luffy has only recently entered the territory of top tier.


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## Canute87 (Mar 5, 2022)




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## Bloody Raiu (Mar 5, 2022)

If DR arc sabo, still a complete novice with the mera mera could quickly neutralize the effects of Ferocious tiger with his logia properties then i have a feeling luffy might be able to resist his gravity manipulation with the sheer momentum of G4, and we've seen Fujitora get bounced around by attacks that are nothing compared to what current luffy is packing, so he can definitely pose a real threat to the admiral.

With the fight against Kaido still raging on and all the uncertainty regarding just how close luffy is to him right now, we dont have the information to make a definitive call, although i think anything less than mid-high high diff for either fighter is out of the question at this point

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yonko RedHair Shanks (Mar 6, 2022)

Luffy low diff.


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## Heart Over Blade (Mar 6, 2022)

Kaidou was revealed to be stronger than we thought, but he was already scaled higher than Fuji even before the latest feats. Fuji doesn't get to scale to Kaidou who beats him decisively. 

Luffy still takes this.


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