# Captain America is now black, Marvel comics announce



## Saishin (Jul 18, 2014)

> Marvel have announced that the comic superhero Captain America is going to be a black man - a day after declaring that the character Thor was now a woman
> 
> 
> *Sam Wilson is the new Captain America*
> ...


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## Yami Munesanzun (Jul 18, 2014)

> Thor will now be a women



Sorry, Marvel. Rule 63 probably already has this covered.


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## Le Pirate (Jul 18, 2014)

I don't really see why this is seen as a big deal. The new Green Lantern, Simon Baz, is arab-american. Before that, John Stewart was the green lantern (and a very popular one at that - he was the one who appeared in Justice League). DC comics in general have beaten Marvel to the punch as far as inclusion (Batwoman, for instance, is a lesbian).

Maybe this is a bigger deal because Captain America is more well-known?


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 18, 2014)

The biggest problem of american comics. They never end.
Captain America should have just graciously retired and live out his days in peace.

Why can't they just make a new super hero, instead of milking out the old ones for eternity?


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## Mael (Jul 18, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> The biggest problem of american comics. They never end.
> Captain America should have just graciously retired and live out his days in peace.
> 
> Why can't they just make a new super hero, instead of milking out the old ones for eternity?



The problem is that they think they can apply the Nick Fury scenario and imagine it works all the time.

Thor is established as a Norse god, not goddess.  That's like changing Odin to a Shinto deity.  

I think they do this just to pander but don't even think of a decent backstory.  I mean, they're doing the same to the Wally West Flash and I'd love to hear the stupidity that's going to try to explain his relation to Barry Allen.  If anything it's going to be an asspull.  The Green Lantern bit works because it's the fucking ring that's passed around.  That's the key to having multiple Lanterns.

Diversity in comics is just fine, but how about a little originality?

This is why I like reading _The Boys_ instead.


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## Agmaster (Jul 18, 2014)

No..it's like making Odin a horndog cougar.  

"At the behest of the original Captain America, he will now change his costume and become *arguably Marvel’s most famous *superhero."

I don't even think this is true.


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## Lina Inverse (Jul 18, 2014)

why do they need to make Thor a woman?

there's already Thor Girl around


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## Distance (Jul 18, 2014)

*Translation*: Marvel has changed the appearances of a popular character to fit with their current consumers. The character is Captain America, and they've changed his skin to black. Is back skin an appropriate symbol of America? 

Unfortunately, the emotional response to this question isn't as amusing as it used to be.


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## ThunderCunt (Jul 18, 2014)

What do they achieve by rebranding an old hero with new race?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 18, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> The biggest problem of american comics. They never end.
> Captain America should have just graciously retired and live out his days in peace.
> 
> Why can't they just make a new super hero, instead of milking out the old ones for eternity?



Your mainstream comic characters will never die because they're a brand first and characters second.

You can slap Superman on anything and it will sell like hotcakes.

Captain America, while imo less popular than Superman, is still really popular. Iconic Superheroes are something everyone has heard of.

@girlthor

Thors powers are endowed into his hammer, the "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor" bit isn't just for show. So I doubt they've actually turned thor into a girl so much as pushed him off to the sidelines and someone else is running around with his hammer.


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## Nemesis (Jul 18, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> The biggest problem of american comics. They never end.
> Captain America should have just graciously retired and live out his days in peace.
> 
> Why can't they just make a new super hero, instead of milking out the old ones for eternity?



This is a new super hero.  Basically original cap is retiring because he has lost his powers and the new guy is his replacement.  This is more akin to the multiple green lanterns than the whole "let's make thor female." route.

Granted the whole Thor becoming female I find stupid, there are many female Asgardians that could easily have their own comics and would be ok with the marvel shape up with fem thor, black captain america AND the death of wolverine upcoming in the next months.


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## Distance (Jul 18, 2014)

In before 'they are only doing it because it's cheaper to use black ink'.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 18, 2014)

This is just ultimate isn't it?
The artwork looks ultimate.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 18, 2014)

Nemesis said:


> the death of wolverine upcoming in the next months.


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## Mael (Jul 18, 2014)

Nightbringer said:


> Your mainstream comic characters will never die because they're a brand first and characters second.
> 
> You can slap Superman on anything and it will sell like hotcakes.
> 
> ...



If he's gonna have the Super Soldier Serum then fine...otherwise it's a cheap ploy to me.



Nemesis said:


> This is a new super hero.  Basically original cap is retiring because he has lost his powers and the new guy is his replacement.  This is more akin to the multiple green lanterns than the whole "let's make thor female." route.
> 
> Granted the whole Thor becoming female I find stupid, there are many female Asgardians that could easily have their own comics and would be ok with the marvel shape up with fem thor, black captain america AND the death of wolverine upcoming in the next months.



Because God forbid Sif be noticed...


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## tari101190 (Jul 18, 2014)

)


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## Vasto Lorde King (Jul 18, 2014)

This is just fucking stupid. I really hate this man. They could easily have added new super heroes. And develop them from the ground up to make it more believable. This is just pandering to the whole politically correct people. Does the marvel company really think that mostly black people read thier shit? Absolutely laughable. They're are other ways of broadening your audience without completely shitting on an character that has been developed for years and then completely change it's race,gender and even sexual preferation just because. Not to mention creating a different version of a well known superhero in an attempt attract a different group of heroes is stupid. The characters don't really have thier own unique identy. While Powergirl,Superwoman and other genderswapped versions do at times have a very unique story at times. Thier very identity is based on bieng an X version of an orginal superhero. Thier abilties and personality to some extent represent the orginals one. Hence people like when references are made in a clever way to the original. 

Well fuck


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## Mael (Jul 18, 2014)

Mill?n Vasto said:


> This is just fucking stupid. I really hate this man. They could easily have added new super heroes. And develop them from the ground up to make it more believable. This is just pandering to the whole politically correct people. Does the marvel company really think that mostly black people read thier shit? Absolutely laughable. They're are other ways of broadening your audience without completely shitting on an character that has been developed for years and then completely change it's race,gender and even sexual preferation just because. Not to mention creating a different version of a well known superhero in an attempt attract a different group of heroes is stupid. The characters don't really have thier own unique identy. While Powergirl,Superwoman and other genderswapped versions do at times have a very unique story at times. Thier very identity is based on bieng an X version of an orginal superhero. Thier abilties and personality to some extent represent the orginals one. Hence people like when references are made in a clever way to the original.
> 
> Well fuck



Unfortunately what you're witnessing is the power of social media idiots on marketing idiots.


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## Black Superman (Jul 18, 2014)

Why can't they just promote Black Panther instead? He was always cooler/more badass than cap anyways. DC is retarded for not promoting the new Aqualad like they should have and then shoving Cyborg down our throats and  giving us this new Wally West and and Marvel is retarded for pulling shit like this when they got Storm, Blade, Black Panther, and a plethora of other underused though awesome black characters who can more than hold their own. It's like they don't push the characters they already have that do have potential. Of course the readership isn't going to accept Thor becoming a woman or a black captain america, they should know that much.


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## Mael (Jul 18, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 










This is more or less what needs to happen to all these "new ideas."


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## Huey Freeman (Jul 18, 2014)

This could have been done better if it was like how DC does it's legacy passing of the mantle I.e Flash - Barry to Wally.

If Bucky was pick it wouldn't have been bad, even tho Falcon had dawn the colors before.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 18, 2014)

uh Mael it's not like they're literally turning Cap black.

Falcon is just assuming the mantle.


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## Bear Walken (Jul 18, 2014)

[YOUTUBE]ZgIrXKpv2gw[/YOUTUBE]


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## ThunderCunt (Jul 18, 2014)

Then this whole headline is misleading. I really like falcon though, infact more than cap.


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## Mael (Jul 18, 2014)

Nightbringer said:


> uh Mael it's not like they're literally turning Cap black.
> 
> Falcon is just assuming the mantle.



Oh so this isn't some new reboot shit?

Well there's a small "thank God for that" there.

Still don't understand why you just shuffle Cap in the back and then focus on Falcon or whoever this guy is.


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## RAGING BONER (Jul 18, 2014)

at least now the Loki pairings won't be full of homolust?


and Captain America isn't even Marvel's 3rd, 4th or 5th most famous hero....


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## Huey Freeman (Jul 18, 2014)

What I disliked is Falcon Capt suit especially the head piece.


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## Huey Freeman (Jul 18, 2014)

RAGING BONER said:


> at least now the Loki pairings won't be full of homolust?
> 
> 
> and Captain America isn't even Marvel's 3rd, 4th or 5th most famous hero....



1) SpiderMan
2) Wolverine
3) Hulk
4) Iron Man
5) Captain America


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 18, 2014)

Mael said:


> Oh so this isn't some new reboot shit?
> 
> Well there's a small "thank God for that" there.
> 
> Still don't understand why you just shuffle Cap in the back and then focus on Falcon or whoever this guy is.



You can't just toss Cap into the basement like that, because of aforementioned name and brand recognition. In fact this was probably the best time for Marvel to make a move on the whole move Falcon into the spotlight, with Winter Soldier still in recent memory, people are more aware of his character than ever.

Besides there's really not that many choices for Cap successor so what can you do?



RAGING BONER said:


> at least now the Loki pairings won't be full of homolust?
> 
> 
> and Captain America isn't even Marvel's 3rd, 4th or 5th most famous hero....



This is really debatable

Marvel doesn't really have a clear cut Superman/Batman type figure to fall back on.

Spiderman is probably numero uno

Then there's like Wolverine I guess but after that it gets a bit murky, there's the Avengers and Fantastic four and the x-men and all that

Cap is definitely near the top, he's been around since WW2 was actually happening and he's not going away any time soon (evidenced by the very thing this thread is about actually, why else would they keep the name?). Based on name, longevity and general appeal I'd probably say while Cap isn't most popular, he's definitely close to most famous.


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## Mider T (Jul 18, 2014)

Mael said:


> Oh so this isn't some new reboot shit?
> 
> Well there's a small "thank God for that" there.
> 
> Still don't understand why you just shuffle Cap in the back and then focus on Falcon or whoever this guy is.



You don't know who the Falcon is?


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## Mael (Jul 18, 2014)

Mider T said:


> You don't know who the Falcon is?



I dunno I don't follow Marvel/DC that much anymore.  I tried giving the reboot a shot but meh.

Started reading the old comics of Judge Dredd and other lesser-knowns.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jul 18, 2014)




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## Mael (Jul 18, 2014)

Well I learned something today.


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## Kafuka de Vil (Jul 18, 2014)

For the life of me I just don’t see what is so appealing about American superheroes. Sure they had a brief spark of renewal in the sixties but everything since then is a parody of a parody. The genre only exists now to be lampooned.


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## Tyrannos (Jul 18, 2014)

I actually like that the Falcon took over the mantle.   It's far better then reinventing a character and suddenly changing their sex or race just to draw in crowds.  (Though ironically, this did work nicely with Nick Fury.  But that was mainly due to how bad-ass Sam Jackson is).


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## Linkofone (Jul 18, 2014)

So ... Bucky will still be the Winter Soldier right?


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## Vasto Lorde King (Jul 18, 2014)

It's falcon? Oh but still nothing much has changed? Still a black person's idenity is comprimsed and used to represent the orginal hero. They could have just let falcon keep his own type of abilities instead of having him wear that shield.

This is still fucking retarded. Still not as stupid as a black spiderman or the worst.  Female thor. Look I'm not saying that every superhuman should have the same idenity throughout the entirity of the franchise. Infact captain america could be chinese. However I don't like the sole reason of him bieng chinese to pander to these annoying pc people. Nobody has for example a problem with Kid Buu bieng uub aside from personal opinon such as character or the famed GT is garbage argument lmao. Which is fair. 

Akira toriyama didn't just make friggin majin buu the  universal threat, the monster that is practically immortal and has existed since the very beginning of time, a bieng who's very existence represents evil, the creature who till for short was the z warriors biggest challenge in terms of strength and even fucking intelligence a fucking Indian just for the sole sake of pandering to these PC crowd?

I for the love of God don't hope Thor is going to be a fucking woman in Avengers 2, Played by fucking Femke Jansenin a wig or some fucking shit.


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## Arya Stark (Jul 18, 2014)

At least they didn't turn Steve into a black stereotype.  (looking at you DCfags)


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## Tsukiyomi (Jul 18, 2014)

So just anyone can put on the suit and be Captain America?  Its not like putting on a green lantern ring and instantly getting all the powers of a green lantern, there is only one Steve Rogers.


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## Vermin (Jul 18, 2014)

don't really see the point in this

if they wanted to get an african american type of superhero into publicity they could have easily promoted black panther, or blade

and why is thor becoming female again, like what is even the point


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## Cromer (Jul 18, 2014)

Pointing out the errors in this thread's posts:

1. Falcon isn't new; he's been Cap's partner since the 60s.

2. Thor isn't turning female; a female member of his supporting cast is going to be wielding the hammer for a while. You know, like Eric Masterson and Beta Ray Bill already did. Thor himself is going to be off with a Destroyer arm and his old Celestial-slayer axe having other adventures.

Other than that, carry on.


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## Inuhanyou (Jul 18, 2014)

don't see an issue. tons of super heroes gets face lifts all the time, other people come in and take their spots. and this time, like bucky previously, it is an established character in the fiction, its not even just some random guy like spiderman.

Thor's replacement as well isnt even technically taking the spot, but is 'filling his space'. But see people dont want to hear that, only their agendas about race and sexism.

If people kneejerk so much about their precious captain America being white and racially pure from alteration without even knowing the full marvel fiction and how the changes fit, it says more about them than anything else.

But that's just my very very very personal opinion, and i realize others might not agree with that.


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## Arya Stark (Jul 18, 2014)

I wish they just retired some of old bland white heroes and opened up space for POC and female ones instead of messing up with existing ones.

I think Falcon can be promoted as Falcon too and Cap can be turned into a retired legend, it's not like his comic book is selling too well.

I love what Marvel did with Captain Mar-vell when it came to this. Kamala and Carol are rocking their titles.


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## Linkofone (Jul 18, 2014)

Um ... Luke Cage is pretty kewl.


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## Le Pirate (Jul 18, 2014)

Tsukiyomi said:


> So just anyone can put on the suit and be Captain America?  Its not like putting on a green lantern ring and instantly getting all the powers of a green lantern, there is only one Steve Rogers.



Steve Rogers is who he is because of the super solider serum. Falcon is getting that Super Solider Serum/already has been given the Super solider Serum, and Steve has been wanting to retire for some time, so he's passing on the mantel of 'Captain America' to Falcon.

That makes sense. Female Thor, though, makes no fucking sense. Thor is a pre-established mythological God, and I don't think he can just 'gift' his powers. It would have made more sense to have the next Hawkeye, Wolverine, or even the Hulk as a female (not incredibly popular decisions, but they'd make more sense than this).


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## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

Nightbringer said:


> uh Mael it's not like they're literally turning Cap black.
> 
> Falcon is just assuming the mantle.



i honestly don't get why people don't infer this

maybe it's the headline's fault

it was the same thing with fem-thor, people thought thor odinson was actually becoming a woman


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## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

that said, falcon is a rather boring character who i have never had any time for, and this looks pretty stupid to me


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## Mael (Jul 18, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> i honestly don't get why people don't infer this
> 
> maybe it's the headline's fault
> 
> it was the same thing with fem-thor, people thought thor odinson was actually becoming a woman



It's because half the articles do not explain the entire story.  They pander more to people who will honest to God think that they're an entire replacement the way DC is doing.

I admit I got caught up in it.  It's probably because I had read five articles on the female Thor and none of them explained that it'd be a situation a la Beta Ray Bill.


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## Cromer (Jul 18, 2014)

Le Pirate said:


> That makes sense. Female Thor, though, makes no fucking sense. Thor is a pre-established mythological God, and I don't think he can just 'gift' his powers. It would have made more sense to have the next Hawkeye, Wolverine, or even the Hulk as a female (not incredibly popular decisions, but they'd make more sense than this).


*THOR ISN'T GOING ANYWHERE.*


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## Huey Freeman (Jul 18, 2014)

Isn't Steve coming back for a Marvel event late this year?


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## Garcher (Jul 18, 2014)

Thor is a woman and Captain America is black for the equality. 

especially transsexual Thor is retarded


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## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> Thor is a woman and Captain America is black for the equality.
> 
> especially transsexual Thor is retarded



jesus

thor isn't transsexual

the character you knew as thor is still around

there's just a woman using his hammer and identity right now


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## olaf (Jul 18, 2014)

people are acting like those were changes for next Avengers movie

Meryl Streep  -Thor from Asgard
Will Smit - Steve Rogers


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## Onomatopoeia (Jul 18, 2014)

Give it until the next movie comes out and Steve will be back in the saddle.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jul 18, 2014)

Why not promote already established heroes like Black Panther? I do get a feeling of cheap pandering with these decisions.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jul 18, 2014)

Black Panther is African. Sam Wilson is American. Black Panther didn't star in Captain America: Winter Soldier.

Just a publicity stunt. Thor and Steve will be back faster than you can say Avengers 3.


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## Zen-aku (Jul 18, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Why not promote already established heroes like Black Panther? I do get a feeling of cheap pandering with these decisions.



Because Black Panther sucks.

Any Way Expect It all To change back when the next Cap/ Thor movie comes out


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## Narcissus (Jul 18, 2014)

No one batted an eyelash when Loki became a woman.


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## Black Superman (Jul 18, 2014)

Zen-aku;51252643[B said:
			
		

> ]Because Black Panther sucks.[/B]
> 
> Any Way Expect It all To change back when the next Cap/ Thor movie comes out



This statement is so not true lol. Anyone who's read anything Black Panther related knows this is complete and utter 100% bullshit. He could give most anyone that work.This is the guy who's owned Tony Stark, Cap, Wolverine on more than one occasion, in their own books at times. They don't call him the most dangerous man alive for nothing. Black panther is that dude. Wealtthiest comic book character of all time, 8th smartest man in the world, top 10 martial artist, leader of the most advanced country in the world, dynastic warrior king and he has a no-kill rule.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jul 18, 2014)

Narcissus said:


> No one batted an eyelash when Loki became a woman.



Loki's a shapeshifter. He's turned himself into a female horse (and got pregnant by schtupping a stallion), a fish, a kid. A big tittied human woman is fair game.


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## Easley (Jul 18, 2014)

I think Marvel could lose credibility here. If these new versions of established characters are only temporary then it will alienate the audience they're trying to attract. The whole thing would just be a marketing stunt which is pretty cynical.

Thor exists in mythology, and even in name only a female version feels wrong. Chris Hemsworth is the current 'face' of Thor and is clearly a red-blooded male!! I doubt we'll be seeing Lady Thor in the movies anytime soon... but apparently Hemsworth's contract is almost up, so who knows.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 18, 2014)

Mael said:


> The problem is that they think they can apply the Nick Fury scenario and imagine it works all the time.
> 
> Thor is established as a Norse god, not goddess.  That's like changing Odin to a Shinto deity.
> 
> ...



And the Hammer being passed around transfers Thor's power. So everything you said is null and void. 

I love how it's fine for a line of white guys to take these roles on and no one complains about the changes. The second there's a gender or race change people like Mael lose their minds.


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## Onomatopoeia (Jul 18, 2014)

No one cared about Nick Fury becoming black. Samuel L Jackson is awesome.

People care about Captain America becoming black because Sam Wilson is D-list fodder.

As to Thor becoming a woman, I wouldn't care if it were an organic change and not just something shoe-horned in for the sake of saying OMG STORNG FEMAYL CARITUR. There's plenty of badass goddesses in world myths that they don't need to replace Thor.

Isn't Shiva like, half chick or something?


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## Zen-aku (Jul 18, 2014)

ZeroTheDestroyer said:


> This statement is so not true lol. Anyone who's read anything Black Panther related knows this is complete and utter 100% bullshit. He could give most anyone that work.This is the guy who's owned Tony Stark, Cap, Wolverine on more than one occasion, in their own books at times. They don't call him the most dangerous man alive for nothing. Black panther is that dude. Wealtthiest comic book character of all time, 8th smartest man in the world, top 10 martial artist, leader of the most advanced country in the world, dynastic warrior king and he has a no-kill rule.



All Your post proves is how much of a fucking Mary Sue he is.

Look at This Guy hes so awesome he Can put a Herald level Opponent in an arm lock (for some reason) got married to Storm (for Some reason) and is So awesome, Please like him?

None of those things you listed come off as natural, Earned or interesting. He has failed every push Marvel has ever given to him because he sucks pure and simple. There are much better black characters in Marvel that they have rightly begun to focus on. Luke Cage, Falcon War machine are all so much better then Bland Panther


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## Sunrider (Jul 18, 2014)

ZeroTheDestroyer said:


> This statement is so not true lol. Anyone who's read anything Black Panther related knows this is complete and utter 100% bullshit. He could give most anyone that work.This is the guy who's owned Tony Stark, Cap, Wolverine on more than one occasion, in their own books at times. They don't call him the most dangerous man alive for nothing. Black panther is that dude.


This right here. 

Marvel is consistently reluctant to push his marketing, but Panther is an enduring and famous character, even if he isn't the most popular. With regard to his place in the pantheon, he is to Marvel what Batman is to DC, without all the angst. 

But anyways, Panther, Luke Cage, Falcon, Blade, and Blue Marvel are solid characters in their own right, with growing followings (Cage leads his own Avengers branch and it's a great book), though--as I mentioned--the marketing push for these characters could be a little stronger. However, for at least some of them, Marvel is doing alright in this regard. 



Falcon as Cap takes nothing away from these characters; in fact, it puts a previously established face in iconic trappings, increasing visibility further. As a black reader, I would very much enjoy seeing new and original iconic characters of color, but we shouldn't forget what made the most famous characters famous: quality stories and _a lot_ of time and exposure. 

And the culture that Superman and Captain America were introduced to is different now--in the information age, there is _so much_ to competition for a reader's attention, creating new and lasting characters just isn't the task it used to be. 

However, iconic characters are firmly entrenched--even in an era bombarded with flashy imagery--and are brands ripe for the using. As such, it's not only a clever marketing strategy to put faces of color in these iconic roles (Earth 2 Superman and Ultimate Spider-Man come to mind), but becomes extremely meaningful to current and future readers of color.


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## Narcissus (Jul 18, 2014)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Loki's a shapeshifter. He's turned himself into a female horse (and got pregnant by schtupping a stallion), a fish, a kid. A big tittied human woman is fair game.



Convenient, hypocritical excuses!  
I know.


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## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> And the Hammer being passed around transfers Thor's power. So everything you said is null and void.
> 
> I love how it's fine for a line of white guys to take these roles on and no one complains about the changes. The second there's a gender or race change people like Mael lose their minds.



hell, forget a line of white guys, beta ray bill was a _fucking alien_


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 18, 2014)

Sunrider said:


> This right here.
> 
> Marvel is consistently reluctant to push his marketing, but Panther is an enduring and famous character, even if he isn't the most popular. With regard to his place in the pantheon, he is to Marvel what Batman is to DC, without all the angst.
> 
> ...


The new properties Marvel has are promising, like Guardians of the Galaxy--for instance. But some of them fall short, like Runaways. 

It's much, much harder than people act like it is for you to throw out a new hero and make that work because there's so much tradition and history in comics. I love how people say "they should just give these new characters their own comics" as if it just happens over night.


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## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

ZeroTheDestroyer said:


> This statement is so not true lol. Anyone who's read anything Black Panther related knows this is complete and utter 100% bullshit. He could give most anyone that work.This is the guy who's owned Tony Stark, Cap, Wolverine on more than one occasion, in their own books at times. They don't call him the most dangerous man alive for nothing. Black panther is that dude. Wealtthiest comic book character of all time, 8th smartest man in the world, top 10 martial artist, leader of the most advanced country in the world, dynastic warrior king and he has a no-kill rule.



you know, "___ has kicked ____'s, ____'s, and _____'s ass" is not actually a refutation of "he sucks"

you can be powerful and still be a bad character

see: superboy prime


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## Black Superman (Jul 18, 2014)

Zen-aku said:


> All Your post proves is how much of a fucking Mary Sue he is.



He's not a Gary Su, he's just good at what he does and that happens to be everything. It's just harder for people to accept that than a character like Doom or Magneto who aren't labelled as often as such.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u16sKK-1oLQ[/YOUTUBE]


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## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

Sunrider said:


> he is to Marvel what Batman is to DC, without all the angst.



if we're doing vague equivalencies, then that would be cap - the peak human, tactical genius, master martial artist who leads on the ground

black panther is a head of state, and that qualifies his role in marvel in ways that aren't analogous to batman


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## Onomatopoeia (Jul 18, 2014)

They retconned Storm's character so that the first time she met him she dropped her panties for him.


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## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

ZeroTheDestroyer said:


> He's not a Gary Su, he's just good at what he does and that happens to be everything. It's just harder for people to accept that than a character like Doom or Magneto who aren't labelled as often as such.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u16sKK-1oLQ[/YOUTUBE]



isn't dwayne mcduffie the fuck-wit who wrote that issue where black panther put silver surfer in a martial arts lock? despite silver surfer being capable of atomising him by...shrugging?

who gives a runny shit what he thinks?


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## Black Superman (Jul 18, 2014)

Zen-aku said:


> All Your post proves is how much of a fucking Mary Sue he is.
> 
> Look at This Guy hes so awesome he Can put a Herald level Opponent in an arm lock (for some reason) got married to Storm (for Some reason) and is So awesome, Please like him?
> 
> None of those things you listed come off as natural, Earned or interesting. He has failed every push Marvel has ever given to him because he sucks pure and simple. There are much better black characters in Marvel that they have rightly begun to focus on. Luke Cage, Falcon War machine are all so much better then Bland Panther



The same could be said of Bruce Wayne and many other characters who do things that are seemingly impossible, but unlike them BP gets unnecessary hate and shit.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jul 18, 2014)

ZeroTheDestroyer said:


> He's not a Gary Su, he's just good at what he does and that happens to be everything. It's just harder for people to accept that than a character like Doom or Magneto who aren't labelled as often as such.



Doom and Magneto Lose All the Time, and are Specifically Stated to Be Incredibly Misguided Villians.

And Sorry NO Black Panther Is a Mary Sue, Shit gets Retconed all the time to make him look better, and He constantly wins against people and dose shit that shouldn't be possible THIS BEING THE MOST BLATANT


----------



## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

ZeroTheDestroyer said:


> The same could be said of Bruce Wayne and many other characters who do things that are seemingly impossible, but unlike them BP gets unnecessary hate and shit.



i don't think BP started getting that much hate until you started acting like his ability to kick someone's ass and have lots of money made him a good character

that said, yes, the whole "x is a mary sue because he does lots of awesome things and this is bad" is kind of a glass houses argument if we're talking about comic book superheroes. batman is pretty much just as bad


----------



## Black Superman (Jul 18, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> isn't dwayne mcduffie the fuck-wit who wrote that issue where black panther put silver surfer in a martial arts lock? despite silver surfer being capable of atomising him by...shrugging?
> 
> who gives a runny shit what he thinks?



You're only proving him right and show some respect.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 18, 2014)

ZeroTheDestroyer said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u16sKK-1oLQ[/YOUTUBE]



This is exactly the problem I have right here. This guy really describes it better than I think anyone else could. You see it a lot with black characters in primary white fantasy shows: like Gunn on "Angel". People get upset when they're clever or do well. 

It also makes it hard to publish actual fiction because some bookstores throw anything by a black author into "African American" literature as if that's the only person it's for. 

There's a reverse side to this though with the people who get upset when a villain is black and act as if he was just the bad guy because he was black when in reality there are other good guy black characters running around. That shit pisses me off just as much.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

ZeroTheDestroyer said:


> You're only proving him right and show some respect.



proving him right by pointing out that he once wrote something mind-bendingly stupid?

show some respect for what?


----------



## Zen-aku (Jul 18, 2014)

ZeroTheDestroyer said:


> The same could be said of Bruce Wayne and many other characters who do things that are seemingly impossible, but unlike them BP gets unnecessary hate and shit.



Bruce wayne has earned it along with writers usualy giving information to back it up along with  the fact they don't retcon shit just to boost him up along with all the times he gets shown to be outclassed and outsmarted which is incredibly often, and people still call bullshit when He dose some thing he shouldn't be able to

Black panther is just that good cause hes black and that makes him awesome for some stupid reason


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 18, 2014)

Zen-aku said:


> Bruce wayne has earned it along with writers usualy giving information to back it up along with  the fact they don't retcon shit just to boost him up along with all the times he gets shown to be outclassed and outsmarted which is incredibly often, and people still call bullshit when He dose some thing he shouldn't be able to
> 
> Black panther is just that good cause hes black and that makes him awesome for some stupid reason



Something he has no business doing? Like being in a league with Superman, Wonderwoman and a bunch of other powerful, nearly, indestructible beings? 

I like Batman, but he's utter bullshit in terms of believe-ability in the world he inhabits. Same goes for Iron Man and to a smaller degree Captain America.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

Zen-aku said:


> Bruce wayne has earned it along with writers usualy giving information to back it up along with  the fact they don't retcon shit just to boost him up along with all the times he gets shown to be outclassed and outsmarted which is incredibly often, and people still call bullshit when He dose some thing he shouldn't be able to
> 
> Black panther is just that good cause hes black and that makes him awesome for some stupid reason



"cause hes black"? 

c'mon, dude

batman's reasons for being the BOAT GOAT are no more realistic than black panther's

in batman's case, we're supposed to believe that this guy managed to master - or at least become adept - in over a hundred martial arts, and also become a master criminologist, chemist, gain an excellent knowledge of biology, of cryptography, and also become a master robotics engineer capable of designing the fucking OMACs...and not even over the course of a lifetime. batman has been thirtysomething for ages. we're supposed to believe this guy achieved all of that in like under 20 years

that's complete bullshit and it's totally unrealistic and you know it

but we accept it. saying batman's frankly unrealistic range and depth of skills is "earned", but black panther is only good because he's black (???) - and not because of his weird mystical herb/connection to a god, huge resources from being king of wakanda, naturally huge intellect, etc - is a massive double standard


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 18, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> "cause hes black"?
> 
> c'mon, dude
> 
> ...



He's also running a successful company and still has a social life.


----------



## Black Superman (Jul 18, 2014)

Zen-aku said:


> Doom and Magneto Lose All the Time, and are Specifically Stated to Be Incredibly Misguided Villians.
> 
> And Sorry NO Black Panther Is a Mary Sue, Shit gets Retconed all the time to make him look better, and He constantly wins against people and dose shit that shouldn't be possible THIS BEING THE MOST BLATANT





Batman has gotten away with some silly things over the years and he still doesn't receive 1/8 of the hate that Panther does. The message is clear.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

also literally every single time batman has ever done something stupid, like deck superman with a kryptonite ring, etc. is nearly as dumb as mcduffie's silver surfer armbar

it just doesn't come across as being so egregious, because writers constantly do it, and pretend it's plausible. so we get kind of acclimatised to the stupidity


----------



## Mael (Jul 18, 2014)

Mother's Milk >>> BP.


----------



## Sunrider (Jul 18, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> proving him right by pointing out that he once wrote something mind-bendingly stupid?
> 
> show some respect for what?


For the entirety of the Milestone line... for starters. 

For creating Static alone, he gets a pardon.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

ZeroTheDestroyer said:


> Batman has gotten away with some silly things over the years and he still doesn't receive 1/8 of the hate that Panther does. The message is clear.



>citing an obviously non-canon incidence where a dc character is fighting a marvel character



at least use batman: hush or something


----------



## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

Sunrider said:


> For the entirety of the Milestone line... for starters.
> 
> For creating Static alone, he gets a pardon.



...what's so good about static?


----------



## Black Superman (Jul 18, 2014)

People talking about Black Panther didn't earn his feats. Captain America is on freaking PED's, that's how he got his start. Panther trained his entire young adult life in a multitude of subjects then got a supernatural upgrade in the form of a fruit. He was badass normal before then. You can miss me with all this believability bullshit. It only applies to certain characters. Just say you don't like him because he exceeds your personal expectations of what you think he should be capable of.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 18, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> >citing an obviously non-canon incidence where a dc character is fighting a marvel character
> 
> 
> 
> at least use batman: hush or something



Did the walk between comic properties somehow weaken Hulk? 

And didn't Batman beat fucking Spawn once? Spawn the guy who doesn't care about murdering Heaven, Hell or anyone in between?


----------



## Mael (Jul 18, 2014)

Comicfags coming alive in debate.

Time to get the hose:


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 18, 2014)

After Wally, now Steve .


----------



## Zen-aku (Jul 18, 2014)

ZeroTheDestroyer said:


> Batman has gotten away with some silly things over the years and he still doesn't receive 1/8 of the hate that Panther does. The message is clear.



Heres The thing We hold those up a s examples of bad write, that scan you posted is non cannon in a book meant for fun

The one i posted was meant to be taken dead seriously.

Black Panther Has no personality out side of "look how cool he is, and he's black too"

Ive already mentioned the Retcons which don't Plauge batman

The fact that its earned, how we've seen how batman can do all the shit he can, and the situations where batman is shown to have clear limits.

Black panther has nether of these, He's just able to do it cause he can.

Like i said theres a reason he has failed every major push marvel has given him.

Luke Cage hasn't. Shang Chi Currently isn't, Storm hasn't.

But Black panther has never caught on, there's a reason for that , its cause he sucks


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 18, 2014)

Mael said:


> Comicfags coming alive in debate.
> 
> Time to get the hose:



They know the medium? Why fault them for it? it's a hobby the same other people know old bands or something.


----------



## Arya Stark (Jul 18, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> After Wally, now Steve .



Steve is still a white dude. It's more like Peter giving the torch to Miles.

I don't understand why do we keep comparing these two. DC sucks balls.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Did the walk between comic properties somehow weaken Hulk?
> 
> And didn't Batman beat fucking Spawn once? Spawn the guy who doesn't care about murdering Heaven, Hell or anyone in between?



i specified non-canon because all sorts of nonsensical shit happens in those as a matter of course. they're marketing stunts designed to pair the flagship characters of the two franchises together irrespective of little things like power levels or consistency or plausibility. and since they're non-canon i.e. having no impact on the larger fictional history of either comic book universe, it doesn't matter


----------



## Mael (Jul 18, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> They know the medium? Why fault them for it? it's a hobby the same other people know old bands or something.



I'm just saying there is a section for it and God Almighty please not the OBD.

No issue talking about Cap.  But the BP wank's gotta go.  I mean I could talk about how much better _The Boys_ are but I'll refrain about that right about now.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 18, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The new properties Marvel has are promising, like Guardians of the Galaxy--for instance. But some of them fall short, like Runaways.
> 
> It's much, much harder than people act like it is for you to throw out a new hero and make that work because there's so much tradition and history in comics. I love how people say "they should just give these new characters their own comics" as if it just happens over night.



It's not as though they don't have a long list of existing heroes to develop, wait shit, they do. 

DC annoys me for this reason. They changed the ethnicity of Wally West for the sake of diversity. Virgil Hawkings is basically sitting on the shelf. If they wanted to attract the black demographic, now would have been the perfect time to give an existing character a much needed push. Invest good writers and artist into the character to ensure it is of a high quality. 

These things annoy people because often than not it is cheap pandering designed to create a quick buzz. It's also moderately insulting, "Here you go. Borrow my legacy until the higher ups are ready to return to the status quo". Seldom do the new characters, representing diversity, outshine their predecessor.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 18, 2014)

Mael said:


> I'm just saying there is a section for it and God Almighty please not the OBD.
> 
> No issue talking about Cap.  But the BP wank's gotta go.  I mean I could talk about how much better _The Boys_ are but I'll refrain about that right about now.



The discussion is relevant to the topic, what happens when women and minorities are given their own books? 

What does it do when they're given control of current properties? 

This is all kind of part of the discussion about the changes made to Thor and Cap.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

btw

i think i saw some people say "he can't be captain america! steve is the only cap!" somewhere in the earlier pages of this thread

yeah, uh, bucky was captain america for a pretty long while


----------



## Gunners (Jul 18, 2014)

[YOUTUBE]AS28BNqXNbM[/YOUTUBE]

Puts things into perspective. Batman shouldn't be fit to carry Superman's cape or Wonderwoman's lasso.


----------



## Mael (Jul 18, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> The discussion is relevant to the topic, what happens when women and minorities are given their own books?
> 
> What does it do when they're given control of current properties?
> 
> This is all kind of part of the discussion about the changes made to Thor and Cap.



Talking about BP soloing people is not relevant to the discussion.  It's an already established character and not Captain America.


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 18, 2014)

Isaiah Bradley, BTW.


----------



## Sunrider (Jul 18, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> ...what's so good about static?


Being easily the most popular Milestone character, going on to survive the cancellation of the line and becoming a fixture in mainstream DC isn't enough? 

Fine, how about writing _Static Shock,_ _Teen Titans, Justice League_, producing _Justice League Unlimited_, and his hand in three _Ben 10_ series, in addition to _Justice Leages: Crisis on Two Earths, Doom _and_ All-Star Superman_? 

McDuffie's contribution to comics and characters of color in particular was enormous, so I could give a flying fuck if he wrote Panther putting Surfer in an arm bar. Other writers have done far worse, contributed far less, and not lost any love.


Narcissus said:


> Isaiah Bradley, BTW.


I'm glad someone mentioned this. 

ISAIAH BRADLEY NEVER FORGET


----------



## J★J♥ (Jul 18, 2014)

Making black characters for the sake of them being black always fails and most of the time they look like walking stereotypes this one is doomed too.
If you want to make character of specific race just make proper character and then add race.


----------



## Magic (Jul 18, 2014)

CAPTAIN AFRICAN AMERICAN


----------



## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

Sunrider said:


> Being easily the most popular Milestone character, going on to survive the cancellation of the line and becoming a fixture in mainstream DC isn't enough?
> 
> Fine, how about writing _Static Shock,_ _Teen Titans, Justice League_, producing _Justice League Unlimited_, and his hand in three _Ben 10_ series, in addition to _Justice Leages: Crisis on Two Earths, Doom _and_ All-Star Superman_?
> 
> McDuffie's contribution to comics was enormous, so I could give a flying fuck if he wrote Panther putting Surfer in an arm bar. Other writers have done far worse, contributed far less, and not lost any love.



i was asking more "what makes static a good character?" or "was there something especially good about his solo series?". y'know. "why should i care about static?"

rather than something answerable with "mcduffie did x, y, and z things that were popular"...because much like black panther being able to kick someone's ass and have money, that doesn't mean much to me. just like superboy prime could kick a lot of ass, rob liefeld was also quite popular

and let's be honest, you mentioned three of those direct to dvd dc animated films in there. is involvement in those supposed to knock anyone's socks off? is that glamorous?

the dvd adaptation of all-star superman? well, the actual comic, all-star superman, was magnificent. a great work. so if he'd written that, then you'd move me. but he didn't, did he? 

ben 10? 

you see?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 18, 2014)

Sunrider said:


> Being easily the most popular Milestone character, going on to survive the cancellation of the line and becoming a fixture in mainstream DC isn't enough?
> 
> Fine, how about writing _Static Shock,_ _Teen Titans, Justice League_, producing _Justice League Unlimited_, and his hand in three _Ben 10_ series, in addition to _Justice Leages: Crisis on Two Earths, Doom _and_ All-Star Superman_?
> 
> ...



Damn, he has done a bit. 



SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Making black characters for the sake of them being black always fails and most of the time they look like walking stereotypes this one is doomed too.
> If you want to make character of specific race just make proper character and then add race.



There's a balance, race is going to effect your outlook and how others treat you. It's easy to say this in a position of being seen as average in your country. 

But until you've had someone tell you "you're pretty smart for a black guy" or "you don't talk like you're black at all" or some other weird variant of that, it doesn't make sense. Other races and women hear things like this made about assumptions that people make about them based on something about them that doesn't really mean as much as people think. 

But it does make the character different.


----------



## Sunrider (Jul 18, 2014)

Also, I am sorely disappointed no one has looked at 'Falcon as Cap' and taken the opportunity to call him _CAPTAIN FALCON_. 

You have all let me down.


----------



## Mael (Jul 18, 2014)

Narcissus said:


> Isaiah Bradley, BTW.


----------



## Sunrider (Jul 18, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> i was asking more "what makes static a good  character?" or "was there something especially good about his solo  series?". y'know. "why should i care about static?"
> 
> rather than something answerable with "mcduffie did x, y, and z things  that were popular"...because much like black panther being able to kick  someone's ass and have money, that doesn't mean much to me. just like  superboy prime could kick a lot of ass, rob liefeld was also quite  popular


I wasn't addressing Static's qualities as a character. 

What I'd taken issue with was your writing off McDuffie as a fuckwit for one (frankly forgettable) faux pas. 

His contributions (written work and otherwise) far outweigh his fuckups.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 18, 2014)

We need a black super hero played by Idris Elba and his super power will be being Idris Elba.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

Sunrider said:


> I wasn't addressing Static's qualities as a character.
> 
> What I'd taken issue with was your writing off McDuffie as a fuckwit for one (frankly forgettable) faux pas.
> 
> His contributions (written work and otherwise) far outweigh his fuckups.



in that case, i apologise. that was flippant of me, and i'm really not familiar with his work beyond that incident


----------



## Sunrider (Jul 18, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> We need a black super hero played by Idris Elba and his super power will be being Idris Elba.


Listen... do you hear that? 

That is the sound of panties needing to be changed, all over the world.


----------



## Mael (Jul 18, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> We need a black super hero played by Idris Elba and his super power will be being Idris Elba.



I'd rather he play Mother's Milk than some random costume.


----------



## Jeαnne (Jul 18, 2014)

why cant they simply make new super heroes? would be refreshing 


on a side note, imagine if it was about turning wonder woman into a man and some black hero into a white hero


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 18, 2014)

Sunrider said:


> Listen... do you hear that?
> 
> That is the sound of panties needing to be changed, all over the world.


----------



## Sunrider (Jul 18, 2014)

Mael said:


> I'd rather he play Mother's Milk than some random costume.


I think I'd rather see  as MM. 



Jeαnne said:


> why cant they simply make new super heroes? would be refreshing


The time and exposure to create lasting, iconic characters isn't short, let alone for characters of color. 

But names like Superman, Capt. America, Wonder Woman? These things are iconic_ right now_. They are instantly recognizable pieces of U.S. culture, and perfect launching points for 1) grabbing headlines and 2) attracting new readers. 




Jeαnne said:


> on a side note, imagine if it was about turning wonder woman into a man and some black hero into a white hero


There's so much wrong here I don't know where to begin.


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 18, 2014)

Jeαnne said:


> why cant they simply make new super heroes? would be refreshing


They do do that. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't/ To piggyback off of my Isaiah Bradley post,

Young Avengers


Black team leader modeled after Captain America and a gay couple. And they have actually had a massive impact in the Marvel universe.





> on a side note, imagine if it was about turning wonder woman into a man and some black hero into a white hero


Tumblr would explode.

But they aren't making Thor a woman, and they aren't making Steve black.

To piggyback again on the earlier non-canon convo, Wonder Woman has wielded Mjolnir in a crossover.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

Sunrider said:


> There's so much wrong here I don't know where to begin.



i think  does a pretty good job of explaining why that would be dumb


----------



## Easley (Jul 18, 2014)

Narcissus said:


> But they aren't making Thor a woman, and they aren't making Steve black.


So in other words, it's a marketing stunt?


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 18, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> i think  does a pretty good job of explaining why that would be dumb



The smartest thing on Tumblr. 



Easley said:


> So in other words, it's a marketing stunt?



Noooo, in other words the other characters still exist. They're making new  or existing characters take up the mantle. Steve and Thor are still around the same way Grayson became Nightwing and there's another Robin now.


----------



## Black Superman (Jul 18, 2014)

Zen-aku said:


> Heres The thing We hold those up a s examples of bad write, that scan you posted is non cannon in a book meant for fun
> 
> The one i posted was meant to be taken dead seriously.
> 
> ...



He does have a personality. It may not be the the personality that you like, but he does have a personality that sets him apart from his comic book peers. What's more is that he is an autonomous brand, something very few women and black characters are.

I don't see any Storm, Luke Cage or Shang Chi movies. I don't see these pushes you speak of. I see the same 5 or 6 characters being pushed. We all know who they are, that's probably why they made Sam Wilson take over the captain america position in the first place and made the new thor a woman because you know...


----------



## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

i gotta be honest, i don't think BP has much of a personality, or a burning inner motivation of the sort batman does, or a defining struggle between the powers of a god and the perspective of a human that superman does

i've never detected anything interesting about him


----------



## Sunrider (Jul 18, 2014)

Lucaniel said:


> i gotta be honest, i don't think BP has much of a personality, or a burning inner motivation of the sort batman does, or a defining struggle between the powers of a god and the perspective of a human that superman does
> 
> i've never detected anything interesting about him


He just doesn't have any readily identifiable extremes. Or gimmicks, from another perspective. 

I've always liked his character precisely _because_ he's so... normal. Or as normal as the enhanced-abilities head of a technologically advanced African nation can be. 

He lost his father (and his mother was a long-term prisoner of a despot), but it didn't warp him psychologically. He inherited a kingdom in which he's a step-down from godhood, but he walks the line between royalty and humility well. He knows when to relax, knows when to ride on mothafuckas, all without having to be conflicted or tortured. He stepped up to his role (both king and super hero) with nothing but a sense of duty and responsiblity, first to his country, then to the world. He did it without needing some melodramatic push. 

He's just... chill.


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 18, 2014)

Easley said:


> So in other words, it's a marketing stunt?


You're asking that, because Marvel ISN'T making Thor a woman, or Steve black? You'd likely ask that same question if they were actually doing that...

The idea of a black person taking the mantle of Captain America isn't new, as I've posted already. And we have canon and non-canon examples of people wielding Thor's hammer (in the non-canon instance, it's a woman).

So these concepts aren't new and shouldn't cause so much controversy. Also, people should really read more than the thread title. The article clearly explained this was Falcon becoming Capt.


ZeroTheDestroyer said:


> I don't see any Storm, Luke Cage or Shang Chi movies. I don't see these pushes you speak of.


Storm is one of the most popular and well-known X-Men characters. She has been in almost every X-Men movie, X-Men related games and cartoons, and is getting a solo series. She has much more media coverage than BP.


----------



## Easley (Jul 18, 2014)

Narcissus said:


> You're asking that, because Marvel ISN'T making Thor a woman, or Steve black? You'd likely ask that same question if they were actually doing that...
> 
> The idea of a black person taking the mantle of Captain America isn't new, as I've posted already. And we have canon and non-canon examples of people wielding Thor's hammer (in the non-canon instance, it's a woman).


The difference here is the way these announcements were made. They made a big deal out of it. Marvel think a female Thor is "speaking directly" to a female audience, presumably to attract more girl readers. So how will these new readers react if Marvel suddenly revert back to the original? Same for Cap America. A token female and a token black.

Maybe they should try writing new characters if they want to attract new readers?


----------



## Matta Clatta (Jul 18, 2014)

So captain america is black? no he's just being replaced by a black guy who used to be his partner.
In fact steve rogers is still alive but extremely old now for some reason(not reading remender's cap run)
Just like the new female thor isn't actually replacing old thor. In fact I'd imagine its a change similar to Loki turning female for awhile by inhabiting sif's body.

Stuff like this isn't really worth the outrage. People should be outraged over the real racial swapping going on over at DC. now Wally West is black and Helena Bertelini is a shade too dark to be recognizable to me.

No problem with turning characters black or white but unless DC is gonna turn Batman black or make Superman into a black alien its all kinda obvious pandering to me.


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 18, 2014)

Easley said:


> The difference here is the way these announcements were made.


Yes... as a form of advertisement. 





> They made a big deal out of it.


No, the just advertised it. Some people made a big deal out of it, and an unnecessary one considering that many of them didn't bother to actually read what they are doing. And because this concept isn't new.





> So how will these new readers react if Marvel suddenly revert back to the original?


They aren't "reverting back to the original" because the originals are still there. Thor will get his hammer back, and Steve will come out of retirement.

Sam goes back to being Falcon and the female taking Mjolnir doesn't necessarily disappear.





> Maybe they should try writing new characters if they want to attract new readers?


They have done that... I already said so on the last page.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 18, 2014)

Easley said:


> The difference here is the way these announcements were made. They made a big deal out of it. Marvel think a female Thor is "speaking directly" to a female audience, presumably to attract more girl readers. So how will these new readers react if Marvel suddenly revert back to the original? Same for Cap America. A token female and a token black.
> 
> *Maybe they should try writing new characters if they want to attract new readers?*



Can we just stop using this argument. No one who reads comics or knows anything is going to believe this is going to work.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jul 18, 2014)

ZeroTheDestroyer said:


> He does have a personality. It may not be the the personality that you like, but he does have a personality that sets him apart from his comic book peers. What's more is that he is an autonomous brand, something very few women and black characters are.


 He doesn't have a character, hes is  just a bland invincible black mary sue.

He had no Chemistry with Storm who they had ot butcher to fit with him.

His rogues gallery is almost non existent, and the onyl member of his supporting cast worth mention is his sister who is just him with tits and a shorter temper



> I don't see any Storm,






> Luke Cage







> don't see these pushes you speak of. I see the same 5 or 6 characters being pushed.


 You have no idea what your talking about so, sit down and I'' Educate you.


Storm has Always been One of the primary leaders of the X-men, she currently the Headmistress of the X-mens School and the Leader of that team

Luke cage Was Leade rof the Avengers after Civil war, and has been Leading his own team in some compacity since then, In addition to him getting his own Show on Netflix, he has been appearing  In Video games, and cartoons in major roles. Mighty Avengers the book he Currently is  the star of is one Marvels best books story wise.

Shang chi Has been Brought to the Fore front as well, a Member of the Main Avengers  Book as well as Getting his own Series.

But yup same 5 Characters


----------



## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Can we just stop using this argument. No one who reads comics or knows anything is going to believe this is going to work.



i hear batwing's started to sink, but his solo series was doing pretty good for a while


----------



## Easley (Jul 18, 2014)

Narcissus said:


> Yes... as a form of advertisement. No, the just advertised it. Some people made a big deal out of it, and an unnecessary one considering that many of them didn't bother to actually read what they are doing. And because this concept isn't new.


A female Thor and a black Captain America? They were announced in quick succession. Nothing suspicious there.



> They aren't "reverting back to the original" because the originals are still there. Thor will get his hammer back, and Steve will come out of retirement.


The originals are still there but why change these characters so fundamentally in the first place?



> They have done that... I already said so on the last page.


well, they seem to have failed or they wouldn't need to recast existing characters.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 18, 2014)

Easley said:


> A female Thor and a black Captain America? They were announced in quick succession. Nothing suspicious there.
> 
> The originals are still there but why change these characters so fundamentally in the first place?
> 
> well, they seem to have failed or they wouldn't need to recast existing characters.



It was announced along with a lot of other changes being announced including the death of Wolverine. I like how you think it's a publicity stunt and nothing else when Marvel has good pretty good fucking publicity right now. Like I said before these changes would have never made big headlines if it wasn't for the race and gender differences. That's not something wrong with Marvel, that's something wrong with people making a big deal out if it.


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 18, 2014)

Easley said:


> A female Thor and a black Captain America? They were announced in quick succession. Nothing suspicious there.


In addition to what was said about Marvel making several announcements, it isn't suspicious because this isn't a new concept. Loki has been a female, and actually gender-swapped. There was another black Captain America. Other characters have wielded Thor's hammer. The idea of a woman holding Mjolnir is not new.

And it isn't suspicious because Marvel is a company. *ANYTHING* they do will be an attempt to gain more fans.





> The originals are still there but why change these characters so fundamentally in the first place?


They aren't fundamentally changing the characters... they're having others take up their mantle. Another concept that isn't new in comics





> well, they seem to have failed or they wouldn't need to recast existing characters.


Some have, others haven't.

Someone (CTK I think) mention Runaways. It wasn't as successful as it could've been despite being well written with good characters, but it has a loyal cult following. While Young Avengers is a loved series that has had a significant impact on the Marvel universe.

That's beside the point though. Marvel is a company, and isn't going to try just one method of gaining new fans.

But it has become de rigueur for people to overreact over nonsensical details.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 18, 2014)

Yeah, I mentioned Runaways. The concept sounded really, really good. Unfortunately it's been on hiatus for some years and I think they didn't keep the original concept going long enough.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jul 18, 2014)

ehhh, runaways

it might've been kinda good to begin with but it was soon just a teen soap


----------



## Sunrider (Jul 18, 2014)

Narcissus said:


> Marvel is a company, and isn't going to try just one method of gaining new fans.


Marvel is recognizing the growing buying power of (and seeing the value in creating loyalty among) women, POC, and gays, and they are capitalizing on it. 

Shrewd, imo.


----------



## Easley (Jul 18, 2014)

Sunrider said:


> Marvel is recognizing the growing buying power of (and seeing the value in creating loyalty among) women, POC, and gays, and they are capitalizing on it.
> 
> Shrewd, imo.


It's a fine line... attracting new readers without alienating too many of the old. Personally, I think these recent Marvel announcements heavily favor the new demographics, and current fans who expect things to stay as they are might be disappointed.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 18, 2014)

Maybe Odin will give female Thor a copy of Mjolnir, like he did for Beta Ray Bill.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 18, 2014)

Arya Stark said:


> Steve is still a white dude. It's more like Peter giving the torch to Miles.
> 
> I don't understand why do we keep comparing these two. DC sucks balls.



DC does not sucks ... Right now it does ... But Post Crisis was cool .


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 18, 2014)

My friend made me read Batgirl and I'm enjoying it. Thinking about picking up some more New 52 stuff, but probably not going to go too crazy.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 18, 2014)

New 52 is terrible IMO .


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 18, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> New 52 is terrible IMO .


Like I said, I'm liking Batgirl. I don't have much to compare it with though because the last time I read comics regularly it was that shitty Sonic the Hedgehog book when I was a kid.


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 18, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah, I mentioned Runaways. The concept sounded really, really good. Unfortunately it's been on hiatus for some years and I think they didn't keep the original concept going long enough.


Yeah. They also went into hiatus on a massive cliffhanger. But the characters have appeared in various other stories since then, so even if it did get picked back up, they'd probably drop the story line it left off on.


Lucaniel said:


> ehhh, runaways
> 
> it might've been kinda good to begin with but it was soon just a teen soap


I'll confess it did eventually steer into more tean drama the further it went. But by then I think I liked the characters enough that I forgave it. That, and I've seen much worse teen soaps than what it got into.


Sunrider said:


> Marvel is recognizing the growing buying power of (and seeing the value in creating loyalty among) women, POC, and gays, and they are capitalizing on it.
> 
> Shrewd, imo.



I agree.

It's smart to appeal to as many demographics as possible. Yes, you could alienate some older readers, but times change, and organizations have to evolve to survive.


----------



## Cromer (Jul 19, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Like I said, I'm liking Batgirl. I don't have much to compare it with though because the last time I read comics regularly it was that shitty Sonic the Hedgehog book when I was a kid.



Ignore Black Leg; right now the average DC book is of better quality than before the reboot, though it only manages mediocre where terrible was the order of the day.

But you might enjoy Azzarello/Chiang run on Wonder Woman, and Demon Knights was an underappreciated book.

Or you could read Batman, I suppose.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 19, 2014)

Cromer said:


> Ignore Black Leg; right now the average DC book is of better quality than before the reboot, though it only manages mediocre where terrible was the order of the day.
> 
> But you might enjoy Azzarello/Chiang run on Wonder Woman, and Demon Knights was an underappreciated book.
> 
> Or you could read Batman, I suppose.



I plan to pick up batman now too, I just want to blow through all of this Batgirl stuff so I'm ready when the new costume launches. My friend pretty much only reads DC and she's all over Batman, Wonderwoman, Batgirl and some others. Her advice has been pretty sound thus far.


----------



## Jagger (Jul 19, 2014)

Thor is a woman now?

What the fuck? What is the purpose of doing that?


----------



## Jagger (Jul 19, 2014)

Well, I just read the character itself isn't going to be turned into a female.

I guess that's what happens when you don't read. A good lesson for kids.


----------



## Cromer (Jul 19, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Thor is a woman now?
> 
> What the fuck? What is the purpose of doing that?





Jagger said:


> Well, I just read the character itself isn't going to be turned into a female.
> 
> I guess that's what happens when you don't read. A good lesson for kids.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Jul 19, 2014)

Marvel this is great and all but wouldn't it be cooler if you could IDK make more ORIGINAL Black/minority Superhero Chatacters???
Maybe enough to make a team up with one another
Sure there's a black spider-man, captain America, Nick fury, ect... but really changing skin color of a character and nothing else is really a cop out.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 19, 2014)

makeoutparadise said:


> Marvel this is great and all but wouldn't it be cooler if you could IDK make more ORIGINAL Black/minority Superhero Chatacters???
> Maybe enough to make a team up with one another
> Sure there's a black spider-man, captain America, Nick fury, ect... but really changing skin color of a character and nothing else is really a cop out.



jesus christ why is everyone in the cafe dumb as fuck?

If you'd actually read the thread, or even the last page you'd know that they haven't changed the skin colour of Captain America.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Jul 19, 2014)

Nightbringer said:


> jesus christ why is everyone in the cafe dumb as fuck?
> 
> If you'd actually read the thread, or even the last page you'd know that they haven't changed the skin colour of Captain America.



My arguement is still vaild I want more original black super heroes!!!


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 19, 2014)

They didn't change the skin color on Spider-Man or Nick Fury either. Those are original characters that took the place of the previous ones.

Ultimate Peter died in some sort of crisis crossover thing that I never bothered reading or even learning the name of and Miles took his place some time later.

I think Nick Fury was just randomly killed off, or went undercover or something to make room for the Samuel L Jackson knock-off Nick Fury Jr, because it's actually Nick's son.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 19, 2014)

Onomatopoeia said:


> They didn't change the skin color on Spider-Man or Nick Fury either. Those are original characters that took the place of the previous ones.
> 
> Ultimate Peter died in some sort of crisis crossover thing that I never bothered reading or even learning the name of and Miles took his place some time later.
> 
> I think Nick Fury was just randomly killed off, or went undercover or something to make room for the Samuel L Jackson knock-off Nick Fury Jr, because it's actually Nick's son.



I'm pretty sure that in Ultimate Nick Fury is just black. It's a reboot, that was a change they made.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 19, 2014)

Yeah. Should have specified. I was talking about 616 Fury.


----------



## Arya Stark (Jul 19, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> My friend made me read Batgirl and I'm enjoying it. Thinking about picking up some more New 52 stuff, but probably not going to go too crazy.



It's because only Batfam books are good. I was also following Nightwing and Batwoman before boycotting DC.

Rest is utter crap. (Especially Teen Titans)


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 19, 2014)

I'm going to go with the unoriginal fan nickname of Captain Falcon.



makeoutparadise said:


> Marvel this is great and all but wouldn't it be cooler *if you could IDK make more ORIGINAL Black/minority Superhero Chatacters*???
> Maybe enough to make a team up with one another
> Sure there's a black spider-man, captain America, Nick fury, ect... but really changing skin color of a character and nothing else is really a cop out.



Writers don't make too many new characters especially ones that are hits because they don't fully own those characters anymore, they prefer to own the rights themselves than lose a potential franchise to a company or most of it barring royalties. Walking Dead is a good example of an Independant stuff that became huge. Comics are being used to make millions to billions in movies, why would anyone want to give more money to a company for something they made and get less?

Writers save their best stuff for their creator owned stuff. Comics are a medium to adapt tv shows and movies, creators want to have the next big franchise for themselves.


----------



## Gino (Jul 19, 2014)




----------



## Lina Inverse (Jul 19, 2014)

sooo...falcon punch?

but yeah, for a while there I thought they're turning thor into a woman(which I assumed was due to loki's idea of a joke)

then i remembered that story line of the future thor having the destroyer arm, so I guess this is just them tying the story line together


----------



## Art of Run (Jul 19, 2014)

Falcon's been a pal of Cap for a long time. It makes about as much (if not more) sense than Bucky becoming Cap like he did that one time. 

Either way, reading the comments on websites is great.


----------



## Jake CENA (Jul 19, 2014)

Cool. Maybe next time we will get to see a Japanese Cyclops  with his miniature optic blasts 

An Indian Wolverine. With his berserker onion arms 

A black female Iron Man with two chest pieces on her armor 

And lots more gender bend characters


----------



## SionBarsod (Jul 19, 2014)

olaf said:


> people are acting like those were changes for next Avengers movie
> 
> Meryl Streep  -Thor from Asgard
> *Will Smith - Steve Rogers*


----------



## makeoutparadise (Jul 19, 2014)

Onomatopoeia said:


> They didn't change the skin color on Spider-Man or Nick Fury either. Those are original characters that took the place of the previous ones.
> 
> Ultimate Peter died in some sort of crisis crossover thing that I never bothered reading or even learning the name of and Miles took his place some time later.
> 
> I think Nick Fury was just randomly killed off, or went undercover or something to make room for the Samuel L Jackson knock-off Nick Fury Jr, because it's actually Nick's son.



*I'm not confused about WHICH universe the black spiderman and the black nick fury are in I know they are in different universes than the original counter parts  and the original counter parts are not changed and doing fine.*

I WANT NEW ORIGINAL BLACK/MINORITY SUPERHEROS IN MARVEL WITH GOOD DEVELOPED BACKSTROKES!!! NOT DIFFERENT MARVEL UNIVERSES WHERE THE SAME HERO LOOKS DIFFERENT OR BECOMES ANOTHER PERSON.


----------



## olaf (Jul 19, 2014)

TerminaTHOR said:


> Cool. Maybe next time we will get to see a Japanese Cyclops  with his miniature optic blasts


afaik there was manga x-men (and x-men in japan, not sure if that was the same)


TerminaTHOR said:


> An Indian Wolverine. With his berserker onion arms


dream bigger


TerminaTHOR said:


> A black female Iron Man with* two chest pieces on her armor*


never. no version of tony stark would have that on fighting armour. cause it's fucking worse than useless. for a party costume, who knows, but starks knows how to do battle armour.


TerminaTHOR said:


> And lots more gender bend characters


we already got marvel superheroes as animals, so...
so awesome, so relevant, so 2008


----------



## EJ (Jul 19, 2014)

I agree though, they should focus on creating other characters and add more diversity to the comics that way but there's nothing wrong with this either.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Jul 19, 2014)

Talia said:


> I agree though, *they should focus on creating other characters and add more diversity to the comics that way but there's nothing wrong with this either.*



Thank you that's what I've been trying to say


----------



## Sunrider (Jul 19, 2014)

Yes, let's wait thirty, forty years to see which newly-introduced character become fan favorites and cornerstones of the comics industry. 

_Anything_ except doing something new with currently existing characters.


----------



## Nep Nep (Jul 19, 2014)

Girl AND black guy?  

Seems like pandering...  

Good thing I don't give a darn about American super heroes save for Batman.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 19, 2014)

The problem is that marvel can only push so many things at once and they're always going to want to do things with their already popular heroes.

As far as introducing a new character there's three things to consider:

1. Old Cap himself

2. Falcon

3. the hypothetical new character

Marvel elected to get rid of cap and move Falcon into slot 1, so they focused all their potential resources into one character.

On the other hand if they had decided to introduce someone new they'd end up with their potential resources allocated between two characters, the new dude and Falcon, who hasn't disappeared while this whole thing's happening.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Jul 19, 2014)

Sunrider said:


> Yes, let's wait thirty, forty years to see which newly-introduced character become fan favorites and cornerstones of the comics industry.
> 
> _Anything_ except doing something new with currently existing characters.



A new generation of heroes  for a new generation of children!!!!


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 19, 2014)

Kyokkai said:


> Girl AND black guy?
> 
> Seems like pandering...
> 
> Good thing I don't give a darn about American super heroes save for Batman.



Pandering to who? They're more likely to lose readers from these changes than gain them. It;s hysterical how many people seem to think we live in some magic world where putting a woman or minority in a lead role gets you more attention. 

Read this for context: 


As some of the comments point out there are small mistakes in the article, but the overall point uis correct and clear.


----------



## EJ (Jul 19, 2014)

Sunrider said:


> Yes, let's wait thirty, forty years to see which newly-introduced character become fan favorites and cornerstones of the comics industry.
> 
> _Anything_ except doing something new with currently existing characters.



If this post was towards what makeout and I posted:

Nothing was stated that they "shouldn't add diversity" to these characters although a main focus should be adding more diversity with _new _characters. 

I think it's stupid however people are getting so uptight about changes being made and start throwing the word "pandering around" just because they don't want to see someone with a different sex or ethnicity in their favorite super hero's alteredclothes.


----------



## Magnum Miracles (Jul 19, 2014)

Cool, but I still have over a million issues left in Brubaker's Capt. before I even bother with Remender's Capt .


----------



## Arya Stark (Jul 19, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Pandering to who? They're more likely to lose readers from these changes than gain them. It;s hysterical how many people seem to think we live in some magic world where putting a woman or minority in a lead role gets you more attention.
> 
> Read this for context:
> 
> ...



Comic nerds are the utter dumbshits I've ever seen. At least weeaboos are smart enough to don't get shit with legal ways. With comics, they buy the book to see what's the point is about and most of them give it an arc. Also those books add special covers, crossover tie ins to keep the flow going because nerds are that dumb. I'm not adding the "I hate it but I'm collecting this book for 30 years, I can't stop" morons. Having good sales for a year is enough for comic book companies these days.

Same shit happened with black Wally. People dropped book like hot potato (myself included) but with news bombing on net, the second issue of arc got a huge sale boost. And now most of arc has special covers with final chapter being tied to Future's End event. So they are saving face by saying "you hate it but you are buying the book, your opinion is invalid"


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 19, 2014)

Arya Stark said:


> Comic nerds are the utter dumbshits I've ever seen. At least weeaboos are smart enough to don't get shit with legal ways. With comics, they buy the book to see what's the point is about and most of them give it an arc. Also those books add special covers, crossover tie ins to keep the flow going because nerds are that dumb. I'm not adding the "I hate it but I'm collecting this book for 30 years, I can't stop" morons. Having good sales for a year is enough for comic book companies these days.
> 
> Same shit happened with black Wally. People dropped book like hot potato (myself included) but with news bombing on net, the second issue of arc got a huge sale boost. And now most of arc has special covers with final chapter being tied to Future's End event. So they are saving face by saying "you hate it but you are buying the book, your opinion is invalid"



I kind of prefer the way comics nerds are and the loylaty they seem to have buying stuff. I purchase my comics and I will be buying all of Sandman here soon.


----------



## Krory (Jul 19, 2014)

So has everyone figured out that they haven't "changed" any character's appearances or stupid shit like that? Or are they still on the "THOR WAS A MAN IN NORSE MYTHOLOGY" argument even though the female Thor isn't _actually_ Thor, since the character of Thor still exists alongside her (and ignoring the fact that Thor was never a _frog_ in Norse Mythology either)? Just as this new black Captain America isn't Steve Rogers?

I mean, I can see from the first page that pretty much everyone was an idiot but after almost two hundred posts I'd like to think it finally sunk in.

It's really no different from when Bucky Barnes became Captain America - shit man, Wilson's been around for almost fifty fucking years, too.


----------



## EJ (Jul 19, 2014)

Going by the title, I'm pretty sure people just skim some post then come to a conclusion and start posting. I've been guilty of this.


----------



## Krory (Jul 19, 2014)

That's pretty much how the Cafe works. I'm willing to bet even most people that took note of the name of the new Captain America don't even realize who he is.


----------



## Le Pirate (Jul 19, 2014)

I can see marvel having one of their more popular characters have their place taken by a gay character/having a character come out some time in the future. DC's got them beat on a lot of stuff like this, but DC never really made any good movies so their characters are a lot less well-known.


Also, for those that were discussing Black Panther earlier, , scheduled to come out in 2017.


----------



## Bender (Jul 20, 2014)

Make Hank Pym go back to beating women while you're at it Mahvel.


----------



## Krory (Jul 20, 2014)

Le Pirate said:


> I can see marvel having one of their more popular characters have their place taken by a gay character/having a character come out some time in the future. DC's got them beat on a lot of stuff like this, but DC never really made any good movies so their characters are a lot less well-known.



Jean-Paul Beaubier (Northstar) notably (having been "out" for over twenty years), also becoming married recently (something that DC declined to do).

Victor Borkowski (Anole) has been an openly gay teenaged character since his inception.

Mystique was established to be a lesbian initially at her inception though they were never allowed to state it outright in the comics due to initial "law" in comic publishing (Nightcrawler's original birth situation was actually from Mystique morphing into a male just to impregnate her soulmate), although she's classed as bisexual now.

Xi'an Coy Manh (Karma). Recently another newer character, Roxanne Washington (Bling!) came out as a lesbian having feelings for both Jubilee and Cessily Kincaid (Mercury).

There is also an array of alternate-universe versions of classic characters that are homosexual including (but not limited to) Colossus, Wolverine, and Beast.

And many of the newer younger generation teams consist of gay characters without issue, such as Wicca, Hulkling, Karolina Dean and Nico Mironu from the Runaways.

Really, homosexuality or bisexuality in comic book characters is far from the taboo subject it was even ten, twenty years ago.


----------



## Le Pirate (Jul 20, 2014)

krory said:


> Jean-Paul Beaubier (Northstar) notably (having been "out" for over twenty years), also becoming married recently (something that DC declined to do).
> 
> Victor Borkowski (Anole) has been an openly gay teenaged character since his inception.
> 
> ...



The key in what I said was 'more popular characters'. I know what you mean - there are plenty of LGB characters - but none of those characters, outside of Mystique, is known at all. That, or (in the case of Wolverine, Colossus, and Beast) the fact that it's an AU kinda means it isn't going to be taken seriously, or got no recognition. I don't really keep up with Marvel comics, so take this with a grain of salt, but as a homosexual comic book reader who tries to keep up with what characters are gay, I've never heard of a gay Wolverine. Hugh Jackman, it seems, has publicly said that Wolverine isn't canonically gay.

That being said, I do see your point about homosexuality and bisexuality not being as much taboo _in_ comic books - there are plenty of gay characters now. I was just saying that one of the more well-known, paid attention to be the general public, characters might be coming out soon. I mean, as many have pointed out, there are plenty of black characters already, but having one as well-known as Captain America be black is more visible, and has more of an impact.


----------



## Arya Stark (Jul 20, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I kind of prefer the way comics nerds are and the loylaty they seem to have buying stuff. I purchase my comics and I will be buying all of Sandman here soon.



It wasn't the point of my post at all, read it again.


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 20, 2014)

krory said:


> Karolina Dean and Nico Mironu from the Runaways.


Wait, I think you mean Xavin. Nico is straight and actually rejected Karolina, unless I missed an issue where she had a lesbian experience or something.





Le Pirate said:


> The key in what I said was 'more popular characters'. I know what you mean - there are plenty of LGB characters - but none of those characters, outside of Mystique, is known at all.


That depends on what audience you're referring to. If you mean people who watch Marvel-based movies (which you seem to be aiming for in your posts), then no, they aren't known. Going off of that, many of the movie watchers don't even know that Mystique is bisexual. But many of those characters are well-known and loved among the comic book audience.





> Hugh Jackman, it seems, has publicly said that Wolverine isn't canonically gay.


lol Hugh Jackman has no say in the matter. 
He is an actor, not one of the writers.

His statement is correct, but not because he said it.





> That being said, I do see your point about homosexuality and bisexuality not being as much taboo _in_ comic books - there are plenty of gay characters now.


That, and one of X-Men's biggest themes is being a parallel for the gay community. It's much better, but it's still not perfect considering the treatment some of those characters experience.





> I was just saying that one of the more well-known, paid attention to be the general public, characters might be coming out soon.


That's possible... but I'd believe it when I see it. DC announce something similar, but it was just Alan Scott.


----------



## Krory (Jul 20, 2014)

Le Pirate said:


> The key in what I said was 'more popular characters'. I know what you mean - there are plenty of LGB characters - but none of those characters, outside of Mystique, is known at all. That, or (in the case of Wolverine, Colossus, and Beast) the fact that it's an AU kinda means it isn't going to be taken seriously, or got no recognition. I don't really keep up with Marvel comics, so take this with a grain of salt, but as a homosexual comic book reader who tries to keep up with what characters are gay, I've never heard of a gay Wolverine. Hugh Jackman, it seems, has publicly said that Wolverine isn't canonically gay.
> 
> That being said, I do see your point about homosexuality and bisexuality not being as much taboo _in_ comic books - there are plenty of gay characters now. I was just saying that one of the more well-known, paid attention to be the general public, characters might be coming out soon. I mean, as many have pointed out, there are plenty of black characters already, but having one as well-known as Captain America be black is more visible, and has more of an impact.



>Nobody knows Northstar

Uhh... you're joking, right? His wedding was one of the biggest deals in comic book history - there was nobody that read Marvel comics that didn't know about it. Except you, apparently.

Read _X-Treme X-Men_, where Wolverine and Hercules are romantically involved (also that reminds me, Wolverine's son - Daken - was bisexual and one of the biggest whores ever partly due to his pheromone powers).

Also the _Ultimate_ universe, the one in which Colossus is openly gay (and has been such since the beginning) is more popular to same than the classic 616 universe/timeline - especially considering this timeline has been the inspiration for many things in the films such as the new Nick Fury (which was later adapted into the 616 timeline).

@Narcissus - Yeah, Xavin, my mistake.


----------



## Ceria (Jul 20, 2014)

Distance said:


> *Translation*: Marvel has changed the appearances of a popular character to fit with their current consumers. The character is Captain America, and they've changed his skin to black. Is back skin an appropriate symbol of America?
> 
> Unfortunately, the emotional response to this question isn't as amusing as it used to be.



Should've made him Latino, since they're the largest growing minority. 

But seriously, how can there be a Thor girl? Is she Thor's daughter?


----------



## synthax (Jul 20, 2014)

Don't like it one bit,if they did for diversity better off creating a new character entirely.


----------



## Krory (Jul 20, 2014)

Ceria said:


> Should've made him Latino, since they're the largest growing minority.
> 
> But seriously, how can there be a Thor girl? Is she Thor's daughter?



Just a woman who is the wielder of Mjolnir and inherits Thor's powers after he's deemed unworthy, much like has happened numerous times before. She's not actually Thor, she is just "Thor" in namesake - no different from how Sam Wilson is Captain America and Kamala Khan is Miss Marvel (or Carol Danvers now being Captain Marvel for that matter). "Thor" is just as much an identity, a superhero "code name" for lack of a better term, as it is the character's name in this situation. She's inherited the title of Thor, along with his powers. She is not actually Thor Odinson.

Which seems to be the thing people are incapable of grasping.


----------



## NordicXFiles (Jul 20, 2014)

I think of a black Cap and female Thor as Avatars. They are different people with differents stories but ultimately stand for the same things. But taking care of the mantle while the original is sick or wants a vacation is cool too. Especially in Thor's case like lets say he becomes extremely ill and the hammer knows Thor can no longer pick it up, so it looks for a succesor like lets say Sif until Thor gets nursed back to health. I am just saying that storyline has the potential to be awesome!!


----------



## Aeternus (Jul 20, 2014)

krory said:


> "Thor" is just as much an identity, a superhero "code name" for lack of a better term, as it is the character's name in this situation. She's inherited the title of Thor, along with his powers. She is not actually Thor Odinson.
> 
> Which seems to be the thing people are incapable of grasping.


Thor is not a title. It is a name. It can't be passed down. "God Thunder" is a title. That is my only gripe about this change.


----------



## Krory (Jul 20, 2014)

Except it apparently is. Because that's what they're doing.

Boo frickin' hoo.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 20, 2014)

Within the context of the Marvel Universe at large Thor is a name.

On Earth though, where Thor is a Superhero, it's a title, just like Iron Man is title, just like Captain America is a title.

Someone using the powers of Thor, wielding his hammer, would be within rights to call themselves the next Thor.

If Marvel is competent they could look at the tensions this causes with Asgard, because they would understand that Thor is a name rather than a title. Could be interesting.


----------



## Aeternus (Jul 20, 2014)

krory said:


> Except it apparently is. Because that's what they're doing.
> 
> Boo frickin' hoo.



That doesn't make it right now though, does it? 

Anyway, even though most likely I am not going to read it, I am kinda curious to know who that lady is going to be.


----------



## Stunna (Jul 20, 2014)

It's not a stretch to believe that a name can become so much bigger than its owner that it becomes a title in itself.


----------



## strongarm85 (Jul 21, 2014)

Its not the first time that Captain America has been black, or the first time that The Falcon became Captain America.


----------



## Gino (Jul 21, 2014)

Marvel and new 52 DC all can go fuck itself into the infinite void of the universe.


----------



## Krory (Jul 21, 2014)

Gino so mad.


----------



## Gino (Jul 21, 2014)

Absolutely livid.


----------



## Krory (Jul 21, 2014)

y u so mad tho?


----------



## Gino (Jul 21, 2014)

Don't know yet still trying to come up with an excuse.


----------



## iJutsu (Jul 21, 2014)

Why not just give the Falcon his own series? It just makes him seem like he's just piggybacking on the original's fame.


----------



## Nordstrom (Jul 21, 2014)

Yami Munesanzun said:


> Sorry, Marvel. Rule 63 probably already has this covered.



I blame to mouse in charge for doing this shit.



ClandestineSchemer said:


> The biggest problem of american comics. They never end.
> Captain America should have just graciously retired and live out his days in peace.
> 
> Why can't they just make a new super hero, instead of milking out the old ones for eternity?



Amen if someone creates a new superhero! If they make a contest I'm going in!



Mael said:


> The problem is that they think they can apply the Nick Fury scenario and imagine it works all the time.
> 
> Thor is established as a Norse god, not goddess.  That's like changing Odin to a Shinto deity.
> 
> ...



While fem Thor is retarded, if they don't bullshit it, it might be worth it. Now, I wonder who's getting to run around with Mjolnir?



Agmaster said:


> No..it's like making Odin a horndog cougar.
> 
> "At the behest of the original Captain America, he will now change his costume and become *arguably Marvel?s most famous *superhero."
> 
> I don't even think this is true.



If it's story, it might be true.



Nightbringer said:


> Your mainstream comic characters will never die because they're a brand first and characters second.
> 
> You can slap Superman on anything and it will sell like hotcakes.
> 
> ...



I wonder who that might be...



Mael said:


> If he's gonna have the Super Soldier Serum then fine...otherwise it's a cheap ploy to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Because God forbid Sif be noticed...



So no Brunnhilde?!


----------



## Krory (Jul 21, 2014)

I wonder if Rhodey got this much grief when he became Iron Man.


----------



## Aeternus (Jul 21, 2014)

krory said:


> I wonder if Rhodey got this much grief when he became Iron Man.



Hmm... If you are talking about the Iron Man 2.0 thing, I remember some people not being so fond it but not that much.


----------



## Roman (Jul 21, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> The biggest problem of american comics. They never end.
> Captain America should have just graciously retired and live out his days in peace.
> 
> Why can't they just make a new super hero, instead of milking out the old ones for eternity?



Ray-sama's Goku's first line in this applies to ALL American superheroes:

[YOUTUBE]0MW9Nrg_kZU[/YOUTUBE]

Nothing against Captain America being black, but because their stories are constantly being re-written, they've gotten absurdly boring since the 1940's or shortly after whenever they were created. It's the reason why I just can't get into them.


----------



## Skywalker (Jul 21, 2014)

It was only a matter of time, it doesn't really bother me too terribly much though.

It's never ending anyway, so meh.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 21, 2014)

Freedan said:


> Ray-sama's Goku's first line in this applies to ALL American superheroes:
> 
> [YOUTUBE]0MW9Nrg_kZU[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Nothing against Captain America being black, but because their stories are constantly being re-written, they've gotten absurdly boring since the 1940's or shortly after whenever they were created. It's the reason why I just can't get into them.



Very few relevant superheroes have been around since the 40's, I can think of like 3 of the top of my head. 

4 if you include Namor. 

You're probably thinking of the 60's, that's where Spiderman, X-men, Iron man, etc. comes from.

Also saying they've been around for ages therefore their stories are boring is just pure laziness. Some of the most popular and interesting Superman stories are from the past few decades.


----------



## Zaru (Jul 21, 2014)

Nightbringer said:


> Also saying they've been around for ages therefore their stories are boring is just pure laziness. Some of the most popular and interesting Superman stories are from the past few decades.



Not hard considering the story quality in the early decades of some of these characters. They can't even be taken seriously.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 21, 2014)

Zaru said:


> Not hard considering the story quality in the early decades of some of these characters. They can't even be taken seriously.



Considering comics originally started out for children, yes that was the point and quite frankly the reason the fanbase has shrunk is because most of the fans are 20+ somethings. 

Oh and when you have different artists and writers, it is quite possible to add new things to the mythos and get stories of different variety. You get good writers, bad writers and meh writers but any good writer can take a rich mythos and make it interesting.

Many of those older stories are also still quite popular like Batman Year One or Frank Miller's other Batman The Dark Knight Returns. Those are more mature compared to the chilidish stories of the silver age for sure.

Reintroducing old characters to new readers is what led to this new Guardians of the Galaxy movie that will no doubt be a hit and is getting good reviews quite early from critics. Because if Keith Giffen and DnA did not bring back characters like Rocket Raccoon, Groot, Starlord and such from the 60s for Annihilation and Annihilation: Conquest there would not be a second variation of the GOTG comic that would lead to this.

I'm curious as to how many people here find Dragonball boring after 500+ manga chapters, anime, movies, OVAs, Dragonball Kai, Battle of the Gods sequel to the original manga, crossover media, potential sequels to battle of the gods etc. 

One Piece came out in 1997 or so and we are supposedly still halfway through only. This in addition to anime, movies, videogames and crossover media. And yet it is the highest selling manga in the world arguably, people still clearly care about the same characters.

Detective Conan/Case Closed came out in 1994 and is still going last I checked. This is ignoring the anime, movies and crossover(Lupin).

Anime/manga and Japanese franchises like Kamen Rider, Super Sentai etc are not above going on forever and even in cases of following a different Kamen Rider or Super Sentai we still have older ones return and even appear in games or manga. Kamen Rider-1 still appears in stuff despite appearing in the 1970s.

It's no different than characters like Bugs Bunny, Mickey Mouse and others still appearing in stuff, people still want to see them.

Oh and just incase anyone thinks Marvel/DC are the pinncale/defination of comics HAHAHAHAHA. Vertigo and Icon from within those companies alone is different from super hero fair. Then there is IDW, Darkhorse, Image, Avatar, Boom and many other companies as well.


----------



## Kage no Yume (Jul 21, 2014)

Cromer said:


> Pointing out the errors in this thread's posts:
> 
> 1. Falcon isn't new; he's been Cap's partner since the 60s.
> 
> ...



Really now, the cafe has pretty much gone to shit in the last few years.  No one even reads the damned articles posted, or does any research on their own if they know absolutely nothing about the material, and it basically devolves into a shitfest.

Captain America is retiring and handing the title to his previous side kick!  Since the article mentions race, lets make this all about race instead of, you know, the Captain retiring and passing the mantle to an obvious contender.


Hell, there was an article about a shooting a few months ago, where it stated clearly in the article that it was a cop who shot some kid who was holding a knife, and absolutely no one talked about what actually happened, and went on and on about school shootings (okay, one other person actually read the article, but was also completely ignored).


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 21, 2014)

The last time Cap was dead the "only guy worthy of carrying the shield" was Hawkeye.

Cap chose Sam because they're former partners. Marvel chose Sam because he's black. It's not 100% racially related, but race is very obviously a factor here.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Jul 21, 2014)

A black captain america sounds fine, but getting a woman and calling her thor sounds really stupid. It would have worked better if you had a female captain america and a black thor.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 21, 2014)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> A black captain america sounds fine, but getting a woman and calling her thor sounds really stupid. It would have worked better if you had a female captain america and a black thor.



You really think black Thor would have gone over well?


----------



## Sunrider (Jul 21, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You really think black Thor would have gone over well?


Misty Knight as Thor.

Idea whose time has come.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Jul 21, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You really think black Thor would have gone over well?



Well I wouldn't mind it. It is certainly a lot better than a female thor.


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 21, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You really think black Thor would have gone over well?



Especially considering there was a white supremacist group bitching back when the first Thor film was coming out over the casting of Idris Elba as Heimdall.


----------



## Mael (Jul 21, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You really think black Thor would have gone over well?



I think the whole Norse Mythology fans would certainly be confused by it given the historic depictions which would almost be akin to making Anubis with a hippo's head or Zeus an Asian.

Personally for the lulz I think it'd be funny.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 21, 2014)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Well I wouldn't mind it. It is certainly a lot better than a female thor.


I think there could have been more of an uproar with that. You replace the blond haired, blue eyed Thor with a black man and they'd call it reverse racism and an attempt to undermine the white race (even though most of the white race doesn't even have that hair color). 

These people see everything as a sign. They saw the movie 300 as a White Power movie. They got mad when Hunger Games the movie had cast black actors in parts that were said to be dark skinned people in the books. They're just racist, so I think that move would have been at least slightly worse. 



Narcissus said:


> Especially considering there was a white supremacist group bitching back when the first Thor film was coming out over the casting of Idris Elba as Heimdall.



Exactly.


----------



## Zaru (Jul 21, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You really think black Thor would have gone over well?



It wouldn't, because he's probably one of the worst superheroes to make that change to.
Most superheroes are just completely made up figures. Their skin color doesn't really matter. If there's some believable reason to change that, then alright, go for it. Plenty of options.
But Asgardians are blatantly based on norse mythology. Movie Heimdall was already hilariously forced enough. Changing Thor's race, in spite of numerous high profile superheroes that this would fit better to (as in, almost all of them), would be incredibly dumb. Hilarious due to HOW dumb it is and how bad the reactions will be, but still dumb.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 21, 2014)

Zaru said:


> It wouldn't, because he's probably one of the worst superheroes to make that change to.
> Most superheroes are just completely made up figures. Their skin color doesn't really matter. If there's some believable reason to change that, then alright, go for it. Plenty of options.
> But Asgardians are blatantly based on norse mythology. Movie Heimdall was already hilariously forced enough. Changing Thor's race, in spite of numerous high profile superheroes that this would fit better to (as in, almost all of them), would be incredibly dumb. Hilarious due to HOW dumb it is and how bad the reactions will be, but still dumb.



Idris Elba could play Jackie Chan in a biopic and I would go see that shit. No shits given.


----------



## -Dargor- (Jul 21, 2014)

Spiderman is now a female hispanic muslim.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 21, 2014)

Spiderman was recently kind of a Jew (I think Doc Oc is a Jew) and he's also a black hispanic kid.


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 21, 2014)

Zaru said:


> But Asgardians are blatantly based on norse mythology. Movie Heimdall was already hilariously forced enough.


The majority of the noise that was raised over this was due to racism, and not over the inaccurate portrayal of Norse characters.





> Changing Thor's race, in spite of numerous high profile superheroes that this would fit better to (as in, almost all of them), would be incredibly dumb


Except in this scenario Thor's race wouldn't be changing. The equivalent here would be a black character taking up Thor's hammer.

It's the same reason the concept of a woman holding Mjolnir is fine.

You are right in that it still wouldn't go over well though.


----------



## Krory (Jul 21, 2014)

Onomatopoeia said:


> The last time Cap was dead the "only guy worthy of carrying the shield" was Hawkeye.
> 
> Cap chose Sam because they're former partners. Marvel chose Sam because he's black. It's not 100% racially related, but race is very obviously a factor here.



Or the fact that Sam's popularity tripled - at least - since his appearance in The Winter Soldier.


----------



## Arishem (Jul 21, 2014)

It's disappointing that Marvel hasn't done much with Anansi. If they wanted a cool African god to use as the basis for a cosmic or divine hero, there's already one in existence. Given his trickster nature and great knowledge, he could be like a benevolent Loki, and it wouldn't too much of a stretch to feature him in Spiderman's stories. I know he already exists in Marvel, but he just feels like wasted potential currently.


----------



## brolmes (Jul 21, 2014)

pffffsssshahahaha

i need feminism because women can be big strong manly men and be role models for young boys too 

don't hate

males and females don't exist guys we made it all up

someone in school told me when i was young and impressionable.. and it made me feel smarter than primitive old people to believe it.. so it's true


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 22, 2014)

magical artefacts are the great equaliser


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Jul 22, 2014)

Zaru said:


> It wouldn't, because he's probably one of the worst superheroes to make that change to.
> Most superheroes are just completely made up figures. Their skin color doesn't really matter. If there's some believable reason to change that, then alright, go for it. Plenty of options.
> But Asgardians are blatantly based on norse mythology. Movie Heimdall was already hilariously forced enough. Changing Thor's race, in spite of numerous high profile superheroes that this would fit better to (as in, almost all of them), would be incredibly dumb. Hilarious due to HOW dumb it is and how bad the reactions will be, but still dumb.


Actually, on second thoughts, I probably wouldn't like it. But it's still a lot  better than a female thor.

And actually, is there anything in norse mythology which says he isn't black? I know he's meant to be a redhead but I never heard anything about his skin colour (sure, most vikings would have been white but there would probably have been the odd black viking via their extensive international trade, and thor wouldn't necessarily have to be a typical norse man anyway, he's a god).


----------



## Mael (Jul 22, 2014)

Find me a black ginger redhead that isn't a dye job or biracial, jet.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Jul 22, 2014)

Mael said:


> Find me a black ginger redhead that isn't a dye job or biracial, jet.



Why can't he be biracial?


----------



## Mael (Jul 22, 2014)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Why can't he be biracial?



Because I don't want to see any outside influence and a white redhead ginger genetic input is an outside influence.


----------



## Art of Run (Jul 22, 2014)

How ginger we talking here? Because it does occur sometimes to an extent, although it is definitely an outlier. 

I had a friend who was from Haiti and had some blonde afro shit going on.


----------



## Mael (Jul 22, 2014)

Art of Run said:


> How ginger we talking here? Because it does occur sometimes to an extent, although it is definitely an outlier.
> 
> I had a friend who was from Haiti and had some blonde afro shit going on.



IIRC, ginger applies to redheads, not blondes.


----------



## Cromer (Jul 22, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> I think there could have been more of an uproar with that. You replace the blond haired, blue eyed Thor with a black man and they'd call it reverse racism and an attempt to undermine the white race (even though most of the white race doesn't even have that hair color).
> 
> These people see everything as a sign. They saw the movie 300 as a White Power movie. They got mad when Hunger Games the movie had cast black actors in parts that were said to be dark skinned people in the books. They're just racist, so I think that move would have been at least slightly worse.
> 
> ...



Gotta love ignorance. I wonder what, if any, of these people know that mythological Thor is a ginger?


----------



## Art of Run (Jul 22, 2014)

Mael said:


> IIRC, ginger applies to redheads, not blondes.



I'm aware, but it was an anecdote of an odd hair colour occurring naturally. 

When 'red' does happen you could say it's more of an off shade of brown than ginger, though.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Jul 22, 2014)

Art of Run said:


> How ginger we talking here? Because it does occur sometimes to an extent, although it is definitely an outlier.
> 
> I had a friend who was from Haiti and had some blonde afro shit going on.



Well you can get black ginger Australian aboriginals, the thing is that the vikings never reached Australia to my knowledge.

But I was thinking more the idea of basing thor around some 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants in norse society, who could be biracial.


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 22, 2014)

Tom Brevoort on the NEW CAPTAIN AMERICA: 'This Decision Was Incredibly Easy'


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 22, 2014)

We need Mexican Captain America, that would start some shit.


----------



## Yagura (Jul 22, 2014)

It's not as if character himself is being racebent, so those who take issue either don't understand that or have evident biases.



Gunners said:


> Puts things into perspective. Batman shouldn't be fit to carry Superman's cape or Wonderwoman's lasso.



...and yet he's more popular than both. 



jetwaterluffy1 said:


> And actually, is there anything in norse mythology which says he isn't black?


The people who made him up were white and had probably never met or aware of anyone who wasn't, so it's presumed.




> (sure, most vikings would have been white but there would probably have been the odd black viking via their extensive international trade, and thor wouldn't necessarily have to be a typical norse man anyway, he's a god).


You must have a rather rosey view of the medieval Norse to think they'd accept an African as one of their own, much less model a god after them. Regardless, the mythology likely predates the Viking expansion period.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jul 22, 2014)

Yagura said:


> The people who made him up were white and had probably never met or aware of anyone who wasn't, so it's presumed.
> 
> 
> 
> You must have a rather rosey view of the medieval Norse to think they'd accept an African as one of their own, much less model a god after them. Regardless, the mythology likely predates the Viking expansion period.



The Aztec god was said to be white skinned. People make up shit sometimes. Also the Vikings probably saw black people because black people were out and about in Europe some and they were attacking anything they could reach by ship--including the North America. 

Even then, the Thor comics aren't a story where the Norse created a mythology, it treats the mythology as real and as we know people take myths and bend and twist them over the years. Look at white, blue eyed Jesus. 

In the comics the Asgard people could be anything because they're not based on the Norse Myth, they're the progenitors of it.


----------



## Yagura (Jul 22, 2014)

> The Aztec god was said to be white skinned. People make up shit sometimes. Also the Vikings probably saw black people because black people were out and about in Europe some and they were attacking anything they could reach by ship--including the North America.



The mythology has roots stretching back to the Indo-Europeans - it existed long before the Vikings ever left Scandinavia. And ehhh I don't really know about black people being "out and about" in Europe. I mean, yeah, the Arabs brought some with them to Iberia and there could have been an occasional slave but chances are your average European wouldn't be aware of their existence - especially those so far removed as Scandinavians.



> Even then, the Thor comics aren't a story where the Norse created a mythology, it treats the mythology as real and as we know people take myths and bend and twist them over the years. Look at white, blue eyed Jesus.
> 
> In the comics the Asgard people could be anything because they're not based on the Norse Myth, they're the progenitors of it.



Obviously the writers can do whatever they want but usually it's expected when you appropriate something from a culture you exercise a degree of respect for it's origins. Though I don't care either way.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Jul 23, 2014)

Yagura said:


> You must have a rather rosey view of the medieval Norse to think they'd accept an African as one of their own, much less model a god after them. Regardless, the mythology likely predates the Viking expansion period.



I don't know, but I'm pretty sure there was a mixing of viking and english culture so I don't see why you wouldn't see the same kind of thing with africans and native americans.


----------



## Sunrider (Jul 23, 2014)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> We need Mexican Captain America, that would start some shit.


I liked the angle Brevoort was talking about Capt. America being a mantle to be passed down. 


*Spoiler*: _I hereby nominate America Chavez_ 








Shit would be so cash.


----------



## Mael (Jul 23, 2014)

I nominate that Garth Ennis come up with the new ideas now.

I'm sure that'll be a hoot over half of these ones.


----------



## Nemesis (Jul 23, 2014)

Yagura said:


> The mythology has roots stretching back to the Indo-Europeans - it existed long before the Vikings ever left Scandinavia. And ehhh I don't really know about black people being "out and about" in Europe. I mean, yeah, the Arabs brought some with them to Iberia and there could have been an occasional slave but chances are your average European wouldn't be aware of their existence - especially those so far removed as Scandinavians.
> .



The pre viking norsemen would have traded with Rome, in rome there were a multitude of cultures and skin colours including black african.  I would think there would have been some knowledge of the skin colour.


----------



## Spock (Jul 23, 2014)

This is a small price for years and years of whitewashing characters and roles that were originally made for PoC. I don't even like Marvel but whatever, good publicity stunt.


----------



## Hand Banana (Jul 23, 2014)

So if Captain America passed his mantle to a white person we would be ok with this? Is that the ideologically going on in this thread?

This is exactly why the Green Lanterns are probably the best diverse comic character(s) in comics.


----------



## EJ (Jul 23, 2014)

Hand Banana said:


> So if Captain America passed his mantle to a white person we would be ok with this? Is that the ideologically going on in this thread?
> 
> This is exactly why the Green Lanterns are probably the best diverse comic character(s) in comics.



Exactly but people see ethnicity first when they look at a character...the more 'iconic' they are, the more...


----------



## Krory (Jul 23, 2014)

Hand Banana said:


> So if Captain America passed his mantle to a white person we would be ok with this? Is that the ideologically going on in this thread?
> 
> This is exactly why the Green Lanterns are probably the best diverse comic character(s) in comics.



Considering it's been done before, yes. That is literally the only reason people are up in arms.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 23, 2014)

krory said:


> Or the fact that Sam's popularity tripled - at least - since his appearance in The Winter Soldier.



So why throw away the thing that made him popular, being the guy with the wings that flies around and kicks ass, and shoe-horn him into Cap's costume?


----------



## Hand Banana (Jul 23, 2014)

Onomatopoeia said:


> So why throw away the thing that made him popular, being the guy with the wings that flies around and kicks ass, and shoe-horn him into Cap's costume?



Movies don't always stay true to Comic cannon. It was an idea they were looking to go through with, but now this gives them solid ground. Falcon has always been paired with Cap and looked up to him. Not surprising he would want to take the mantle.

What's so ignorant about some of the people here, they don't realize the Captain America mantle has been held by the Patriot (an African American). 

If that wasn't already mentioned.


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 23, 2014)

krory said:


> Considering it's been done before, yes. That is literally the only reason people are up in arms.



Carrot top is the new Batman.

The Hulk is now asian and is in a wheelchair.


omg society is so racist if they dont like it.


----------



## Hand Banana (Jul 23, 2014)

shintebukuro said:


> Carrot top is the new Batman.
> 
> The Hulk is now asian and is in a wheelchair.
> 
> ...



Carrot top has the same ethnicity as Batman.

The Hulk is a genetic mutation of his host so it would Bruce Banner who is Asian.

Mark Alan Ruffalo played Bruce Banner and he is  of Franco Italian decent.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 23, 2014)

Hand Banana said:


> What's so ignorant about some of the people here, they don't realize the Captain America mantle has been held by the Patriot (an African American).



I didn't know Eli ever having used it. Haven't been keeping up with Young Avengers. I know his grandfather did. 



Hand Banana said:


> Mark Alan Ruffalo played Bruce Banner and he is  of Franco Italian decent.



But he's still white. Bruce Banner needs to be made a pre-teen a-gendered Brazillian/Chinese Muslim. For the sake of consistency.


----------



## Hand Banana (Jul 23, 2014)

Onomatopoeia said:


> I didn't know Eli ever having used it. Haven't been keeping up with Young Avengers. I know his grandfather did.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 23, 2014)

Isaiah Bradley, that's Eli's granddad.


----------



## Hand Banana (Jul 23, 2014)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Isaiah Bradley, that's Eli's granddad.



Avengers: The Children's Crusade


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 23, 2014)

Oh yeah, that bit where they're from the future.

Bonus points for irony: His wife, Samantha Wilson-Bradley, AKA Falcon.


----------



## Hand Banana (Jul 23, 2014)

I hope a white person doesn't take up the mantle for Falcon.

Now I can be ignorant like some of you.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 23, 2014)

If they did Marvel would get flooded by complaints of racism.


----------



## Hand Banana (Jul 23, 2014)

White Falcon.


----------



## EJ (Jul 23, 2014)

Onomatopoeia said:


> If they did Marvel would get flooded by complaints of racism.



That's a terrible example since there are more white super heros than any other group of people. People want more diversity in comics is what you're not understanding.


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 23, 2014)

How is it a terrible example? People complain about changing a character's race all the time (case in point: this thread), why should it be any different if they gave The Falcon costume to a white guy? How would that make people who want "diversity" say "Wow, that's a really good idea."

Or does it not count as complaining when what they're complaining about is the overabundance of honkies in western media?


----------



## EJ (Jul 23, 2014)

I wouldn't really care if they made The Falcon black white or Hispanic. Others would since there are more white super heroes than other groups of people which again..something you still aren't grasping. It's not a black/white issue (no pun intended).


----------



## Onomatopoeia (Jul 23, 2014)

Option #2. Gotcha.


----------



## EJ (Jul 23, 2014)

You completely missed the point, I had such high hopes for you.


----------



## Yagura (Jul 23, 2014)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> I don't know, but I'm pretty sure there was a mixing of viking and english culture so I don't see why you wouldn't see the same kind of thing with africans and native americans.



Two white Germanic groups intermingling =/= what your suggesting.

The Vikings would have very seldom come into contact with those kind of people anyway, especially the latter. Certainly not enough for any cultural intermingling or the like - assuming they were so enlightened. 



Nemesis said:


> The pre viking norsemen would have traded with Rome,



Traded? Sure. _Directly_ though - as in a Norseman trekking far into the south, across the continent to Rome; rather than through a number of intermediary peoples and middlemen? Probably not.



Nemesis said:


> in rome there were a multitude of cultures and skin colours including black african.



Only very, very sparingly I imagine. The Empire never expanded beyond the Sahara (where black people originate) so the only blacks you'd find in Roman territory were likely either travelers or second hand slaves.



Nemesis said:


> I would think there would have been some knowledge of the skin colour.



I'm not saying it's impossible, just improbable - for your average Scandinavian at least.


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## Krory (Jul 24, 2014)

Onomatopoeia said:


> If they did Marvel would get flooded by complaints of racism.



They already are because of this.

You underestimate the power of stupid white people.


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