# Why can Kakashi use 4 chakra natures?



## Kung Pow (Oct 19, 2011)

Now I have been reading up and working through the Nature Manipluation matter for a long time.

In the manga it seems everytime either Kakashi or Yamato explain the requirements for a shinobi to learn, control and perform certain chakra nature manipulation techniques, affinieties or the fact the shinobi is natured in the element he wants to learn come up.

Now the arguement, if a shinobi can have more than one affinity has been settled.
I personally think that due to Yamato saying to Naruto that him using water element wjould depend on him being water natured and that shinobi spend all their live training and looking for their second and third "natures" in my oppinion meaning second and third secondary affinities, I think a shinobi can have more than one affinity.

Sasuke for example, seems highly skilled with both Lightning and Fire chakra.
Kakashi having the sharingan which by fact does not impose any aid or advantage in the process of learning or controlling Nature manipluation techniques can use Water,Fire,Earth and Lightning jutsu at a very high rate.
And lastly Sarutobi which was shown to also use Fire and Earth jutsu at very high level.

Now I personally think, a shinobi does not require an affinity to learn how to use a nature element, but his affinity decides upon the effectiveness and power of the nature element he performs.

In the fight between Kakashi and Kakuzu, Kakashi stated that nobody should be able to perform elemental jutsu "*at such high rate*" without the specific affinity for it.

And we saw the immens dimensions Kakuzus Fire and Wind elements had.
Compared to Kakashi?s Water or Fire use it can be concluded that he really might just have one affinity for Lightning and the others are only trivial since they are just not used at such high rate or power.

I am just wondering though how he is able to just use 4 elements, and I don?t see why he wouldn?t be able to use wind as well.

Yamato said, he didn?t know a ninja *using *all 5 elements,not "using at a high rate", by that implying that the use of more than 2 or 3 is a very high accomplishment as well.

And if Kakashi can spam the other 4 why wouldn?t he be able to use Wind as well?

It is just weird in my oppinion.

Having more affinities seems more plausible to me, due to Sasuke but then again statements of Kakshi and Yamato contradict and complicate the matter.


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## Vice (Oct 19, 2011)

Because he's a badass.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 19, 2011)

Thank you for that


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## crisler (Oct 19, 2011)

so you're basically saying that shinobis can learn use all elemental skills, and that elemental affinity which they are born with are which allows them to use 'higher level', am i right? and from that concluson you're wondering why kakashi hasn't shown any skills considering wind element

i'm not sure if you're rite though...but did kakashi display katons? 

those who displayed more than 4 elemental jutsus are...

i can't think of anyone besides nagato. hiruzen was told to learn all the jutsus, but what we've seen are doton, katon.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 19, 2011)

Yes, from what I have stated in the OP I think you can have multiple affinities.
But only the natures the user has an afiinity to, will be able to be performed at higher power and effectivity rates.

Taken from the the fight between Kakashi and Kakuzu in which he was wondering why Kakuzu was able to perform multiple elemental jutsu at very high rates without having the affinity.
And that again brings me to the conclusion that it is not common for shinobi to have multiple affinties, due to Kakashi?s statement considering Kakuzu?s multiple elemental use and the implication of only having a single affinity.


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## richmass (Oct 19, 2011)

Kakashi can only use three elements in the manga, he only used Katon in the anime, something they shouldn't have done IMO. I do believe that he will show a katon at some point before the manga ends though..


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## Kung Pow (Oct 19, 2011)

How is it possible for him to be so proficient with 4 elements?

The point of multiple affinities is still unsettled in my oppinion.

The facts are...


*1.)Yamato clearly answered Naruto?s question of him ever being able to use for example Water element, that it depended on him being water natured.
From that terminology I conclude that Yamato was talking about an affinity.

2.)In the fight between Kakashi and Kakuzu, Kakashi clearly stated that one should not be able to use multiple  elements at such a rate without the innate affinity for it.
Basically indicating that only one affinity for an element is possible, which again contradicts Yamato?s statement.

3.)Sasuke is able to use Katon and Raiton at very high rate.
    The current only arguement for having only one affinity, is not being able to produce elements at high rates for which the user does not have an affinity for.
But to determine what is considered high rate use of elements or not is hard.
Sasuke seems to have mastered the Gokakyou at the age of 8 and further techniques later on, being highly proficient with them.
And with Lightning he has even created completely new shape manipluations and densities, indicating that he can produce Raiton at very high rates as well.
From that I must conclude again, that he just might have 2 affinities.

5.)Sharingan does not help with the learning and control of elemental jutsu.
     So we cannot write off  his proficiency with Nature Manipulaton Kakashi?s Sharingan.
     Even Sandaime was only shown to be able to produce two elements.
     The most skilled elemental ninja, even with elemental Kekkei Genkai such as Yamato, or even the fifth Mizukage who has two individual elemental Kekkei Genkai can only control 4 elements at max.
Now how in the hell is Kakashi able to use 4 at a very high rate?

It cannot be due to the Sharingan, because no other Sharingan user has ever shown great talents in Nature Manipulation.
Also he stated somewhere that it doesn?t help.

Could it be due to multiple affinities?*


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## richmass (Oct 19, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> How is it possible for him to be so proficient with 4 elements?
> 
> The point of multiple affinities is still unsettled in my oppinion.
> 
> ...



Ninjas only have one affinity.. Unless they have a kekkei genkai which involves combining two elements. Yamato stated that he learned to use Earth style and Water style quite easily, but combining them together was the challenge. He obviously had an affinity for Earth and Water.

Kakashi's affinity is Lightning. It's the first element he learned and seeing as no other Konoha shinobi other than maybe Tsunade has shown Raiton techniques, i'm pretty sure Kakashi taught himself. He then tried and failed to combine his affinity with the rasengan, before making chidori. The other affinities probably came after he got the sharingan, but seeing as he was promoted to jounin before that, there's always the possibility he had already mastered Earth style or Water style.

Sasuke's affinity is the real mystery, he learned Katons because he's an Uchiha, so i'm pretty sure all Uchiha's have an affinity for fire style. Kakashi then taught Sasuke chidori because of his sharingan, then he developed from there.

I repeat.. Kakashi has only shown three elements so far.. Kakuzu could use 5 because he has 5 hearts, each with it's own affinity. Kakuzu wanted Kakashi's heart to replace his lightning heart, which tells us Kakashi's affinity is lightning.

Muu, and the mizukage have shown three elemental affinities, but i'm certain Kakashi only has one.

Yamato said that to Naruto because Naruto is a very slow student, he had alot of trouble mastering his affinity, so trying to make him master water style if it wasn't his affinity would be a waste of time. Yamato was simply stating that he will be mastering whichever element his affinity is, as most if not all ninja do.

Sasuke can use both Katons and Raitons at a "High rate" Because he's a genius ninja with extremely potent chakra. I personally think that his affinity is lightning, but because he's an Uchiha his body is also quite skilled at using fire style.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 19, 2011)

First off, when Kakuzu said that he wanted to replace the heart destroyed by Kakashi?s the Raiton figure was still intact.
Also it is impossible to sense somebody?s affinity, so he couldn?t have known.

Your speculation about Yamato implying Naruto is dumb does not seem very plausible.
Naruto simply asked him a question and before he adressed Naruto he was speaking about shinobi in general.
Saying "that it depened on how one is natured".
I don?t care about Manga or Anime, Kakshi was shown to use Raiton,Katon,Suiton and Doton.

Sasuke being a genius has in my oppinion nothing to do with him being able to use multiple elements at such high rate.
Nature affiliation, great chakra reserves and stamina are the abilities required in order to be proficient with Nature manipluation not powerful chakra.
So it seems rather a senju descendancy would be benefitial to learning and controlling multiple elements and especially performing them with high proficiency, not an Uchiha descendancy.

The only factor that can be used for the decision upon if multiple affinities are possible is the fact if the elements can be performed at high rate.

If we compare:

Fuuton Rasen Shuriken which basically is Nature + Shape Manipulation with
Raiton Chidori which is Nature + Shape Manipluation we can see clear distinctions.

For example the extent, density, power and size of Rasen Shuirken is almost incomparable to Chidori.

Both techniques are at their peak and highest level of combining Nature and Shape manipulation.

Still Rasen Shuriken seems to be far more powerful, dense and durable than Chidori.
I think that is due to Naruto?s Uzumaki/Senju descendance and their abilities which are directly related to Nature and Sage affiliation.

Even though Kakashi is said to be a Senju descendant as well, he is by far not as close as Naruto, since the Uzumaki are even said to be direct descendants through one blood alteration.

Kakashi might well be a various diversion and only be considered a far descendant.

Still that is only theory.

Fact is that people certainly don?t have 4 affinties, and Kakashi is more proficient with Nature manipulation than both the first, second(from what we know so far), and third Hokage and fifth Mizukage.

Yamato and Kakashi seem to contradict themselves quite often actually.
Kakashi stated that it would take half a shinobi?s life to even learn one Nature element properly.

Still we see Sasuke at the age of 8 and Obito at 10 or so produce proper Katon techniques.
Then at the age of 12 Sasuke already produced Raiton.
Sora could use Fuuton at very young age too, and not to forget Naruto even though he trained in his unique way he had mastered Fuuton in only a few weeks.

Something is wrong with the whole elemental stuff^^


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## crisler (Oct 19, 2011)

um just wanna point out,

chidori is not in the same league as FRS.

FRS is something that minato and kakashi tried to do, which is adding elemental composition into rasengan, where rasengan is the peak of spatial composition.

kakashi created chidori from lowering the spatial composition and adding raiton affinity in it. he knew it was impossible (for him and minato at the time) to add elemental affinity into something so high like rasengan

that's why rasengan and chidori always clashes with tieing up even though rasengan has no elemental affinity. naruto could do it thanks to his massive chakra and kb training


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## Santoryu (Oct 19, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsMYYpqPVYQ&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


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## Kung Pow (Oct 19, 2011)

Actually yes, I was mistaken, Chidori does not peak in shape manipulation.

Still consider the rest of my post


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## ShinobiMuramasa (Oct 19, 2011)

The answer to this is very simple, there's no need to get into deep discussion about anything. Simply put, he cannot, he only has water, earth, and lightning. Him using fire is completely filler, he's only used it in filler scenes in the anime; he has never used fire in the manga. The anime had him use a fire jutsu during the bell training and since then they have continued to have him use fire in filler scenes despite him never having done so in the manga. So as far as canon is concerned, Kakashi only has lightning, earth, and water.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 19, 2011)

Despite the fact that the bell scene was not a filler, and that filler episodes are considered part of the story line as the occur in the same laps, it is still unbelievable for Kakashi to even control 3 elements as only the fifth Mizukage with 2 Kekkei Genkais and a few othershas shown to be able to use 3.

Can shinobi have multiple affinties?
Or is the learning of more than 1 element, to which they do not have an affinity if we conclude that they only can have 1 affinity, pure hard work and the result of certain abilities such as high chakra amounts, life force, big stamina which are essential for Natur Manipulation and of which Kakashi has none.

I just think it is too contradictory that he can use three or four at such high rate.
With no innate abilities or inheritance enabling him to.

*So can shinobi have multiple affinties?*


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## Nep Nep (Oct 19, 2011)

Kakashi is a lightning affinity Ninja, the other elemental jutsu were just copied, he didn't really have to learn a water jutsu if he can copy it? 

Now we know that Sharingan evolves into Rinnegan so yeah the copying of jutsu is Sharingans way of using all elements to a lesser degree than it's final dojutsu.


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## KAKASHI10 (Oct 20, 2011)

richmass said:


> Kakashi can only use three elements in the manga, he only used Katon in the anime, something they shouldn't have done IMO. I do believe that he will show a katon at some point before the manga ends though..



^ What this guy said. But I will say that the added fire jutsu in the anime put some spice to it. So I agree with the anime team doing that. Also he might show us a fire jutsu before the end of the manga. 

PS OP At the end of a long post is cortesy to write a summary for the TLDR. 
You are just like turrin.


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Oct 20, 2011)

The first they probably learn is the one they have an affinty to. Naruto's was wind, Asuma also having wind showed him how to use it. *To add Wind manipulation you have to split your chakra and grind them together making sharpen them into fine pieces(the other 4 most likely have some trick to do them, the yin/yang neutral you just have to mold your Chakra*). Also before Naruto got this tip, *when he was trying to cut the leaf he was doing little cuts(it seems when he molds his chakra it NATURALLY splits and grinds together, the tip just helped him speed up the process*). If he wants to learn another element he has to learn its trick to manipulate it and stop his chakra from doing what it does naturally to do something else.

  I think this is a good explaintion of why ninja can't do elements that they don't have an affinity to at high-rates.


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## PureWIN (Oct 20, 2011)

Ugh.

Shinobi can learn any element. It's merely easiest to learn the element they have an affinity for. Why do most ninja only have 2-3 elements? Because it takes years upon years to master an element.

It's based on the Bruce Lee principle: "A man can practice 1,000 different kicks a single time, but I'd rather practice one kick 1,000 times..."

Thanks to the power of the Sharingan and because Kakashi is just plain awesome, he manages to effectively use 3 different elements. If he wanted to, he could learn Fuuton and Katon. But he'd rather focus on Raiton, Suiton, and Doton.


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## Dark Red Z (Oct 20, 2011)




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## KiddLaw92 (Oct 20, 2011)

Alot of Jonin ninja can use 2 different elements, its the norm. Kakashi however is a genius who specialies in ninjutsu so he was able to learn another element on top of that. His Katon use is filler at the moment but even if he does use Katon jutsu's in the manga it just means that he is so talented at nature transformation that he was able to gain another.

This however is very unlikely because it takes alot of time, dedication and talent to learn other nature transformations. I'm sure that if a genius just trained in nature transformation's all of his/her life they would be able to use every nature transformation.


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## -ScRaTcH- (Oct 20, 2011)

This,small sons.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Oct 20, 2011)

Kakashi said that most Jounin could use two or three affinities.

Putting that in to effect he can use Lightning, Water and Earth. It seems using three might be more impressive as guys like Asuma and Itachi only displayed two affinities.

Muu and Oonoki are an exception because they have Jinton as a result of their Kekkei Touta, so we dunno the requirements for possessing that.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 20, 2011)

KAKASHI10 said:


> ^ What this guy said. But I will say that the added fire jutsu in the anime put some spice to it. So I agree with the anime team doing that. Also he might show us a fire jutsu before the end of the manga.
> 
> PS OP At the end of a long post is cortesy to write a summary for the TLDR.
> You are just like turrin.




People need to stop finding excuses such as "He has the Sharingan or he is a genius" in order to avoid discussions.


If we take Kakashi?s fight with Zabuza for example, Kakashi only was able to copy the hand seals of Zabuza,who was using the water dragon technique.
And there logically is no other benefit the Sharingan can grant, regarding the matter.

Being a genius is only benefitial to understanding how a technique might work, but in order to even be able to perply train, control and perform Nature Manipluation jutsu you  need to *repeatedly *release the jutsu.(For example Naruto).
Understanding the technique is one thing, but that fact does not aid you in the process of controllling a Nature technique, since it requires the user to properly have trained it first.

And in order to shorten and decrease the practice time and period of control one needs the abilities of  massive chakra, great stamina, life force and Nature affiliation quite frankly Senju inheritance neither Sasuke nor Kakshi despite being a far descendant show.

Now these abilities are mandatory not only for the proper training and control of Nature tecniques but also to just decrease the time of training and controlling them.
Since the only way to learn how to control a jutsu, especially Nature Manipluation Jutsu, is to multiple release and perform them in order to get the hang out of it like for example Naruto has shown.

Being a genius does not negate the fact of you needing to practice, since theory which can be quickly absorbed by a geniues is to be considered something completely different from the practical aspect of a jutsu.

And since neither Kakashi nor Sasuke posess the above mentioned abilities mandatory, in order to not only shorten the time of training but also the factor of control and amounts the user can release them, it is highly contradictional why Kakashi is seen to be able to use 4 different elements at very high level.
(He was shown to use Fire in the bell scene, which most definately was not a filler!)
And therefor being more proficient than the first,second and third Hoge who were all shown to at max use 2 elements.
He would then also be more proficient than the fifth Mizukage, who not only posesses 2 different Kekkei Genkai and shows extreme efficiency with Nature techniques but also Muu and Onki who are users of a whole new level of Nature techniques, the Kekkei Tota Dust Release, which requires the combination of three elements and therefor also demands complete mastery of them.

And he achieved all that, despite having none of the abilities mandatory in order to shorten the training and control time and  no significant innate abilities or inheritance.

Now if consider Sasuke, who at the age of twelve had already mastered a high rank Katon technique and by the age of 12 - 16 had not only successfully obtained complete control over Raiton but also taken its shape manipulation to another level we need to think how this is possible.

He as well does not have great chakra, stamina reserves or life force.
Neither does he show any signs of Nature affiliation.

If we consider him to only have one affinity, how would it then be able for him to have brought both elements to such a high level?

And the arguements.......

1.)"In a shinobi?s life they at least gain control over 2 - 3 elements", will not be accepted as Sasuke is only 16 years old.

2.)" He is a geniues", will not be accepted as I have mentioned above that the fact of being a genius does  not decrease the amount of time the user needs to practice and control the technique but only to understand it.

3.)"He has the Sharingan", will not be acctepted, since the Sharingan can only grant copy features to the extent of the user?s capability, and since non of the abilities mandatory to posess in order to be able to even properly train and controll Nature techniques are in posession of Sasuke that arguement is crushed too in my oppinon.

So a shinobi can either have multiple affinties or there is something wrong with the plot, because Sasuke just should not be able to produce two elements at such high rate.

Including Kakshi as well of course.



> PS OP At the end of a long post is cortesy to write a summary for the TLDR.
> You are just like turrin.



And what do you mean by that?
And who is turrin?


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## Naruto Fighto (Oct 20, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> So a shinobi can either have multiple affinties or there is something wrong with the plot, because Sasuke just should not be able to produce two elements at such high rate.



Shinobi can have multiple affinities...also they can learn with practice.  

Compare it to normal people, some are more talented at music, some at sports, some at painting etc.

Some are multi talented.

And even if you are not very talented at something you can still practice and learn how to do it pretty decently. 
A person will usually have one thing where they excel at. In this manga, a shinobi will have one element which is his strongest element jutsu. In Sasuke's case I'd say it's lightning (kirin).


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## Kung Pow (Oct 20, 2011)

Only problem is that Sasuke isn?t learning how to sing or play the piano, but rather Nature Manipulation

Please read my *whole *post and the facts/evidence presented that suggest the impossibility of him learning and controlling two elements at the age of 16.



> KAKASHI10 said:
> 
> 
> > ^ What this guy said. But I will say that the added fire jutsu in the anime put some spice to it. So I agree with the anime team doing that. Also he might show us a fire jutsu before the end of the manga.
> ...


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## Chibason (Oct 20, 2011)

Kakashi is a gifted ninja. There is no better, or more descriptive, reasoning to give. It has been said that a shinobi may be talented enough to learn multiple elements.


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## TGM (Oct 20, 2011)

Kakashi's fire style is anime filler...


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## korpus (Oct 20, 2011)

For the love of god, can people stop misusing the word affinity?! You can only have ONE affinity, which is the Nature element that you're naturally drawn to. You can learn all the other elements but you will still only have ONE affinity. Unless you have a Kekkei Genkai.


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## goldendriger (Oct 20, 2011)

I think its that Affinity means that you have more mastery over that nature, Kakashi can copy the Water Dragon Jutsu, but Tobirama could use a much stronger one using only 1 hand seal. So the affinity helps with total mastery, including strength, speed and less hand seals needed. I mean theoretically Naruto can learn every non-KG Ninjutsu ever. Wouldnt be much point, but he could.

But that fits Kakashi's style perfectly, Kakashi doesnt have a tactic in a fight. He's more of a "Wait for them to make the first move" kinda guy, he counters what they do, so his 1000+ Jutsu arsenal and Sharingan will make that much easier.

Sarutobi used Doton and Katon, which means he at least knows both. Same for Asuma, Fuuton natured, yet knew a Katon.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 20, 2011)

korpus said:


> For the love of god, can people stop misusing the word affinity?! You can only have ONE affinity, which is the Nature element that you're naturally drawn to. You can learn all the other elements but you will still only have ONE affinity. Unless you have a Kekkei Genkai.



*Yes but your extent of ability in using elemental manipulation should be decided by your affinity, meaning that if it was true that people only had one affinity they should also only be highly skilled with that particular nature they have an affinity to.

But Sasuke, Kakashi and almost any other shinboi that can use multiple elements seem to be equalliy proficient with either of them.
If they really just had one affinity, then there should be clear indiciators to suggest that they are distinctly more powerful and proficient with the particular nature they have an affinity to in comparison to their additional natures they can use and do not have an affinity to.

But that is not the case and almost every shinobi that can use multiple elements is shown to be equally proficient with either one, and by that the theory of them having multiple affinties comes back to life again.*

Also the comparison to Tobirama Senju is inaccurate, he and Hashirama  are direct descendants of the younger son and have the highest concentration considering the blood inheritance of  massive chakra reserves, stamina, life force and Natur affiliation.
That is why he can produce so much water, because of his insane chakra reserves.

The required inheritance of the Senju in order to properly train and control Nature manipulation is presented in my big post above though.
*
I have really put a lot of effort into my above post which explains alot at least to me, please read it carefully and comment on particular passages
*


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## Raidoton (Oct 20, 2011)

-ScRaTcH- said:


> This,small sons.


Sharingan won't help much if you want to learn how to use another element.

@Topic
He only used 4 elements in the anime... If you want, you can count the games in, there he can use 5 elements. And in the movies he can even use Hyuton


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## Naruto Fighto (Oct 20, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> But Sasuke, Kakashi and almost any other shinboi that can use multiple elements seem to be equalliy proficient with either of them.



But this is not the case....they have one element which is their strongest jutsu. Kakashi and Sasuke - chidori and kirin. They can use other high lvl element jutsus but the lighting jutsus are their strongest moves.

Sasuke's fire dragon is the only other element jutsu that comes close to his lightning, but kirin is stronger.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 20, 2011)

Naruto Fighto said:


> But this is not the case....they have one element which is their strongest jutsu. Kakashi and Sasuke - chidori and kirin. They can use other high lvl element jutsus but the lighting jutsus are their strongest moves.
> 
> Sasuke's fire dragon is the only other element jutsu that comes close to his lightning, but kirin is stronger.



That is nonsense.

Sasuke is an Uchiha, therefor his chakra is bound to be fire natured.
But still his proficiency with Raiton exceeds anything we have seen even, the techniques shown by the highest ranked shinobi from Kumogakure.

Sasuke is exceptionally talented with Lightning, he has even brought it to anther level of shape manipluation by the chakra blade and chidori nagashi.
Also his jutsu Kirin is just another display of his complete mastery of the element.

And since he is an Uchiha and bound to be fire natured due to his blood inheritance, he was able to perform a high rank Katon jutsu at the age of 8.
At the age of 10 when he was participating in the chuunin exams he showed other very high ranked techniques, then in the fight between him and Naruto in the valley and other multiple occasions he showed that his Katon use is highly exceptional as well.

Sasuke is equally proficient with both elements, which strongly suggests that he has an affinity to both.

Also Kakashi?s use of all the 4  elements he has been shown to perform, seem to be of equal power and efficiency.

If shinobi only had one affinity, it would be made clear by their individual use of them that only the nature they actually have an affinity to, could be used at high level compared to the other natures which?s performance should be depicted clearly inferior.

But that is just not the case at all.

Almost every shinobi capable of using multiple elements defys the one affinity theory.
Not to mention that it was never stated that there is only one affinity.

And Yamato clearly implyed that your chakra has to be natured the certain element you want to use.
And still all of them just spam these techniques  like nothing.


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## Frostman (Oct 20, 2011)

You can only have one affinity but that doesn't mean you can't use other elements. affinity means that is the element you can go furthest in. Kakashi will have the easiest time do Raiton then any other elements. he can use other elements, but he can only take it so far.

The only exception is bloodline users like yamato, Mai, and the first Hokage.

PS.

Sasuke's affenity is lightning. Nothing says that Uchiha are bound to fire because of blood. The merely specialize in fore jutsu out of tradition. Chidori is far more advanced then any fire jutsu he used. Its the same for Kakashi.


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## Frostman (Oct 20, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> *Yes but your extent of ability in using elemental manipulation should be decided by your affinity, meaning that if it was true that people only had one affinity they should also only be highly skilled with that particular nature they have an affinity to.
> 
> But Sasuke, Kakashi and almost any other shinboi that can use multiple elements seem to be equalliy proficient with either of them.
> If they really just had one affinity, then there should be clear indiciators to suggest that they are distinctly more powerful and proficient with the particular nature they have an affinity to in comparison to their additional natures they can use and do not have an affinity to.
> ...



Its called being versatile. Even though you should focus on the element that you are naturally proficient with, having another element in your reserve can be useful just in case you encounter someone with an affinity that counters yours. Or for the sake of combination jutsu like what Yamato and Naruto did.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 20, 2011)

This is not about the factt that they can use other elements, but rather why they can use them at equal proficiency and in such short periods?

Please read my post in which I tried to pack it all in one:
*

People need to stop finding excuses such as "He has the Sharingan or he is a genius" in order to avoid discussions.


If we take Kakashi?s fight with Zabuza for example, Kakashi only was able to copy the hand seals of Zabuza,who was using the water dragon technique.
And there logically is no other benefit the Sharingan can grant, regarding the matter.

Being a genius is only benefitial to understanding how a technique might work, but in order to even be able to perply train, control and perform Nature Manipluation jutsu you need to repeatedly release the jutsu.(For example Naruto).
Understanding the technique is one thing, but that fact does not aid you in the process of controllling a Nature technique, since it requires the user to properly have trained it first.

And in order to shorten and decrease the practice time and period of control one needs the abilities of massive chakra, great stamina, life force and Nature affiliation quite frankly Senju inheritance neither Sasuke nor Kakshi despite being a far descendant show.

Now these abilities are mandatory not only for the proper training and control of Nature tecniques but also to just decrease the time of training and controlling them.
Since the only way to learn how to control a jutsu, especially Nature Manipluation Jutsu, is to multiple release and perform them in order to get the hang out of it like for example Naruto has shown.

Being a genius does not negate the fact of you needing to practice, since theory which can be quickly absorbed by a geniues is to be considered something completely different from the practical aspect of a jutsu.

And since neither Kakashi nor Sasuke posess the above mentioned abilities mandatory, in order to not only shorten the time of training but also the factor of control and amounts the user can release them, it is highly contradictional why Kakashi is seen to be able to use 4 different elements at very high level.
(He was shown to use Fire in the bell scene, which most definately was not a filler!)
And therefor being more proficient than the first,second and third Hoge who were all shown to at max use 2 elements.
He would then also be more proficient than the fifth Mizukage, who not only posesses 2 different Kekkei Genkai and shows extreme efficiency with Nature techniques but also Muu and Onki who are users of a whole new level of Nature techniques, the Kekkei Tota Dust Release, which requires the combination of three elements and therefor also demands complete mastery of them.

And he achieved all that, despite having none of the abilities mandatory in order to shorten the training and control time and no significant innate abilities or inheritance.

Now if consider Sasuke, who at the age of twelve had already mastered a high rank Katon technique and by the age of 12 - 16 had not only successfully obtained complete control over Raiton but also taken its shape manipulation to another level we need to think how this is possible.

He as well does not have great chakra, stamina reserves or life force.
Neither does he show any signs of Nature affiliation.

If we consider him to only have one affinity, how would it then be able for him to have brought both elements to such a high level?

And the arguements.......

1.)"In a shinobi?s life they at least gain control over 2 - 3 elements", will not be accepted as Sasuke is only 16 years old.

2.)" He is a geniues", will not be accepted as I have mentioned above that the fact of being a genius does not decrease the amount of time the user needs to practice and control the technique but only to understand it.

3.)"He has the Sharingan", will not be acctepted, since the Sharingan can only grant copy features to the extent of the user?s capability, and since non of the abilities mandatory to posess in order to be able to even properly train and controll Nature techniques are in posession of Sasuke that arguement is crushed too in my oppinon.

So a shinobi can either have multiple affinties or there is something wrong with the plot, because Sasuke just should not be able to produce two elements at such high rate.

Including Kakshi as well of course.*


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## korpus (Oct 20, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> *Yes but your extent of ability in using elemental manipulation should be decided by your affinity, meaning that if it was true that people only had one affinity they should also only be highly skilled with that particular nature they have an affinity to.
> 
> But Sasuke, Kakashi and almost any other shinboi that can use multiple elements seem to be equalliy proficient with either of them.
> If they really just had one affinity, then there should be clear indiciators to suggest that they are distinctly more powerful and proficient with the particular nature they have an affinity to in comparison to their additional natures they can use and do not have an affinity to.
> ...



Having an affinity simply means it becomes easier to learn and become good at, it doesn't exclude proficiency in other elements - it simply is harder in the other ones. That's all there is to it. This was highlighted when Naruto had to channel his chakra into the card so they would know which affinity was his, and further explained when they flat out state that having two affinities is what's called a Kekkei Genkai.

I repeat, *YOU CAN ONLY HAVE ONE AFFINITY*,  unless you have a Kekkei Genkai that gives you more.


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## siyrean (Oct 20, 2011)

sasuke's affinity being lightning would explain his difficulty learning Katon as well as his ability to learn chidori within a month.

and can you please stop saying Kakashi uses 4.


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## -ScRaTcH- (Oct 20, 2011)

Raidoton said:


> Sharingan won't help much if you want to learn how to use another element.



Go tell Oro that,small son.


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## Frostman (Oct 20, 2011)

Show me proof that Kakashi using other elements at very high levels. So far he shown nothing even close to Raikiri. Its the same for Sasuke. His Chidori and Kirin have been leagues ahead of any of his fire jutsu. So i don't know where you are getting equally proficient from.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 20, 2011)

siyrean said:


> sasuke's affinity being lightning would explain his difficulty learning Katon as well as his ability to learn chidori within a month.
> 
> and can you please stop saying Kakashi uses 4.



Lol what difficulty are you talking abotu?

At the age of *8 years* he was already able to produce Katon Gokakyou?
At the age of 10 at the chuunin exams he showed Katon Ryuuka?
And at the age of 12-16 he had mastered it completely.

There is no indicator for him to be Lightning natured at all.
We cannot clearly conclude what nature or (natures) he has but he is clearly equally proficient with both techniques.




korpus said:


> Having an affinity simply means it becomes easier to learn and become good at, it doesn't exclude proficiency in other elements - it simply is harder in the other ones. That's all there is to it. This was highlighted when Naruto had to channel his chakra into the card so they would know which affinity was his, and further explained when they flat out state that having two affinities is what's called a Kekkei Genkai.
> 
> I repeat, *YOU CAN ONLY HAVE ONE AFFINITY*,  unless you have a Kekkei Genkai that gives you more.



It was never stated that having two affinties is refered to as Kekkei Genkai.
Kakashi stated that it would take a shinobi half his life to properly train and control even a single element, and by that probably refering to the one the have an affinity to.

If they really just have one affinity, Sasuke being able to use Raiton and Katon at S level by the age of 16 should not be possible.
Also Kakashi using 4 elements at equal proficiency is living proof for the fact that there just have to be more than one affinity.

Of course proficiency with an element, should be decided by the particular affinity, if it really just was one you could have.

Since that is not the case, a shinobi just having one affinity seems unlikely, not to mention the fact, that it was never mentioned that a shinobi just has one affinity.
*
Yamato definately said to Naruto that in order for a shinobi to be able to learn an elemental technique their chakra has to natured of the certain element they want to control.*

By that in my oppinion implying that there can be more affinties!!
*
Please reread my big post!*



Frostman said:


> Show me proof that Kakashi using other elements at very high levels. So far he shown nothing even close to Raikiri. Its the same for Sasuke. His Chidori and Kirin have been leagues ahead of any of his fire jutsu. So i don't know where you are getting equally proficient from.



The fact that he was already able to perform a high rank Katon Jutsu at the age of *8 years*, completes the fact of him being exceptionally skilled and talented at Katon due to his blood inheritance.

He is equally talented with Raiton.
And he has mastered it to an extent even Kakashi hasn?t shown yet.

Sasuke is proof of suggesting that shinobi can have multiple affinties.


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## Frostman (Oct 20, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> The fact that he was already able to perform a high rank Katon Jutsu at the age of *8 years*, completes the fact of him being exceptionally skilled and talented at Katon due to his blood inheritance.
> 
> He is equally talented with Raiton.
> And he has mastered it to an extent even Kakashi hasn?t shown yet.
> ...



No it doesn't. That Katon he used at the age of 8 was not high level. Him learning it that early was due to his talent. He had no blood inheritance helping him other then the fact that Uchiha are naturally talented at everything they do.

Sasuke has taken Raiton way further then he has taken his Katon. So unless you can show he a katon on the level of the S+ Kirin then there is no reason to believe he Katon is on par with his Raiton.


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## goldendriger (Oct 20, 2011)

siyrean said:


> and can you please stop saying Kakashi uses 4.



Well 3, Katon is filler. But given he can copy elements easily and that he knows 1000+ Im sure at least 1 is Katon and one is Fuuton, even if they're low level
Doton- used the earth wall.
Raiton- Raikiri
Suiton- Water dragon/Water shark missile.

Affinities are not natures, its the nature you're naturally going to accel at. Learn it faster, moves will be stronger etc.

But Kakashi has shown he knows multiple elemental natures.


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Oct 20, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> Only problem is that Sasuke isn?t learning how to sing or play the piano, but rather Nature Manipulation
> 
> Please read my *whole *post and the facts/evidence presented that suggest the impossibility of him learning and controlling two elements at the age of 16.



 I thought this thread was about Kakashi??  I'll talk about Sasuke, too. The first thing a ninja learns is the Element they have an affinaty for. Most ninja have 1 Affinaty(only ninja's with Kekkai Genkai have more than one, Kakashi has not been said to have a KG, Sasuke's KG is Sharingan not multi-elements)

 They use that paper to find out which of the five elements they have an affinaty to. The example I show is the one they do in the Manga, Naruto's affinaty is Wind.


Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> The first they probably learn is the one they have an affinty to. Naruto's was wind, Asuma also having wind showed him how to use it. *To add Wind manipulation you have to split your chakra and grind them together making sharpen them into fine pieces(the other 4 most likely have some trick to do them, the yin/yang neutral you just have to mold your Chakra*). Also before Naruto got this tip, *when he was trying to cut the leaf he was doing little cuts(it seems when he molds his chakra it NATURALLY splits and grinds together, the tip just helped him speed up the process*). If he wants to learn another element he has to learn its trick to manipulate it and stop his chakra from doing what it does naturally to do something else.
> I think this is a good explaintion of why ninja can't do elements that they don't have an affinity to at high-rates.



 Kakashi has an affinaty to Lighting, Sasuke has an affinaty to Fire(it was stated in that chapter). Going with the example of Naruto each of the five elements has some trick to manipulating the element, and each ninja's chakra naturally does the trick for the element they have an affinaty for. Kakashi said that Naruto learned his element quicker than it took Sasuke to learn the Lighting element to be able to do Chidori(reasonable as Sasuke was learning a new element), Kakashi most likely had to explain the trick for manipulating lighting for him to learn it. Sasuke has only done Fire & lighting to my knowledge. 

 Kakashi has done 3 in the manga(4 in the anime). That means he had to learn the trick for 2 elementser & earth(3 elementser & earth & fire in the anime). He probably didn't have to learn the trick for lighting because he is a "genius"(the word genuis is overused, the more appropriate thing would be to say is "natural talent"). 

 The reason most Kakashi(and most ninja) have 3 is because of the time it would take to learn all five elements(the 3rd Hokage Hiruzen Sarutobi knew all the jutsu Konoha, he could probably do all 5 elements). To do elements at high-rates would be more difficult because the ninja would have to be able to switch elements quickly(knowing & being able to do the elements tricks quickly). Also the tricks for some elements maybe to difficult for most ninja to do because of the way their chakra natural works.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 20, 2011)

Frostman said:


> Him learning it that early was due to his talent.





Frostman said:


> He had no blood inheritance helping him



Obito showed the use of Katon Gokakyou No Jutsu at very young age as well, it is due to their Uchiha blood inheritance and their Fire natured chakra that they are just exceptionally talented with Katon techniques, which is why they are even able to produce them at such young age.
Kakashi said that it would take a shinobi half his life to properly learn how to perform them.
If you consider that he was 8 years old, there just has to be a certain talent inbound, and the only logical explanation is that he is fire natured.



Frostman said:


> Sasuke has taken Raiton way further then he has taken his Katon. So unless you can show he a katon on the level of the S+ Kirin then there is no reason to believe he Katon is on par with his Raiton.



You are forgetting Sasuke?s Enton Release?
His exceptional Fire proficiency due to his Fire natured chakra is vastly displayed in his use of Amaterasu.

And because he has taken Raiton even further than both Kakashi and the highest ranked nins of Kumogakure we have seen in battle we can conclude that his talent with Raiton is also to be referenced to an affinity for it.

Even the Raikage himself was impressed by his use of Chidori.

There is just no other explanation, but for him to have multiple affinities.
And if he has them, Kakashi and all the other nins defying the theory of just having one affinity do as well!
*
And people stop saying Kakashi?s use of Katon was a filler, it was not.*
*He used it when he did the bell training and that scene was not a filler!*


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## Torpedo Titz (Oct 20, 2011)

*Because he's boss as fuck.

'Nuff said, really.*


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## Kung Pow (Oct 20, 2011)

This arguement could be settled if some approved of the fact that multiple affinties are indeed possible to have.


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## goldendriger (Oct 20, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> This arguement could be settled if some approved of the fact that multiple affinties are indeed possible to have.



Well it cant be. Affinities are not natures. Anyone can learn multiple natures, but not affinities, no one has shown to have more than 1 affinity, even KG techs are a combination of 2 natures in the body.

Unless you have an example?


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## Torpedo Titz (Oct 20, 2011)

*


goldendriger said:



			Well it cant be. Affinities are not natures. Anyone can learn multiple natures, but not affinities, no one has shown to have more than 1 affinity, even KG techs are a combination of 2 natures in the body.

Unless you have an example?
		
Click to expand...


What about Mei? *


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## Kung Pow (Oct 20, 2011)

How can you say that nobody has shown multiple affinities?
You cannot possibly determine what affinity somebody has without having seen what the paper he touches does.
And how can you conclude that there has to be one particular affinity  to an element if most shinobi with multiple elements are equally proficient with every elemental jutsu they use?


Here are my two posts that should conclude all the evidence and facts to suggest that multiple affinties are a rellevant theory.
Please read them and quote the certain passages you would like to discuss.

*1.)*


> > People need to stop finding excuses such as "He has the Sharingan or he is a genius" in order to avoid discussions.
> >
> >
> > If we take Kakashi?s fight with Zabuza for example, Kakashi only was able to copy the hand seals of Zabuza,who was using the water dragon technique.
> > ...


*

2.)*


Kung Pow said:


> Obito showed the use of Katon Gokakyou No Jutsu at very young age as well, it is due to their Uchiha blood inheritance and their Fire natured chakra that they are just exceptionally talented with Katon techniques, which is why they are even able to produce them at such young age.
> Kakashi said that it would take a shinobi half his life to properly learn how to perform them.
> If you consider that he was 8 years old, there just has to be a certain talent inbound, and the only logical explanation is that he is fire natured.
> 
> ...


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## goldendriger (Oct 20, 2011)

TheCoolGinger said:


> *
> 
> What about Mei? *



But arent KG like Mei's about combined 2 chakra natures in the body to create a new one? Not affinities but natures. I could be wrong...kinda hope im not, otherwise id look like a dumb ass


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## Kung Pow (Oct 20, 2011)

goldendriger said:


> But arent KG like Mei's about combined 2 chakra natures in the body to create a new one? Not affinities but natures. I could be wrong...kinda hope im not, otherwise id look like a dumb ass



Elemental Kekkei Genkai has nothing to do with affinities.

It is the ability to fuse two chakra natures together in order to create a new one.

If the users actually had affinities to those particular elements they have the abilitiy to create a new one with due to Kekkei Genkai is unknown, but I doubt it.

*Now concentrate on my above post with the two big quotes!*


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## Naruto Fighto (Oct 20, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> Sasuke is equally proficient with both elements,
> 
> Also Kakashi?s use of all the 4  elements he has been shown to perform, seem to be of equal power and efficiency.
> 
> And still all of them just spam these techniques  like nothing.



Kakashi's raikiri and Sasuke's kirin are S rank jutsus, their other elements are in the lower rank.

To conclude, they are more proficient with lightning than with other elements.

They also have more than one affinity, Kakashi's primary affinity is lightning as it showed when he took the paper test. His other affinities are water and earth.
I don't know what Sasuke's primary affinity is, it's either fire or lightning. It's probably lightning since he uses those the most.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 20, 2011)

Naruto Fighto said:


> Kakashi's raikiri and Sasuke's kirin are S rank jutsus, their other elements are in the lower rank.
> 
> To conclude, they are more proficient with lightning than with other elements.
> 
> ...



Sasuke?s Fire use is of S rank as well.
People are always forgetting his Enton Rlease.
Even though it is considering Mangekyou Sharingan his abilitiy to perform Enton Release is certainly possibile due to his exceptional Fire proficiency.

*Please read my two quotes above in post #50, and discuss starting from there!*


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Oct 20, 2011)

KiddLaw92 said:


> Alot of Jonin ninja can use 2 different elements, its the norm. Kakashi however is a genius who specialies in ninjutsu so he was able to learn another element on top of that. His Katon use is filler at the moment but even if he does use Katon jutsu's in the manga it just means that he is so talented at nature transformation that he was able to gain another.
> 
> This however is very unlikely because it takes alot of time, dedication and talent to learn other nature transformations. I'm sure that if a genius just trained in nature transformation's all of his/her life they would be able to use every nature transformation.



this right here.


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## Sparrow (Oct 20, 2011)

PureWIN said:


> Ugh.
> 
> Shinobi can learn any element. It's merely easiest to learn the element they have an affinity for. Why do most ninja only have 2-3 elements? Because it takes years upon years to master an element.
> 
> ...


This. It's really pretty simple, the thread should have ended here.

Normal ninja only have one affinity, which makes it easier for them to learn jutsu of that nature and to a higher degree. Any ninja can learn any element, it just becomes much more difficult to use them at a higher level if they're not of the same nature as your affinity. Shinobi with elemental kekkei genkai (mokuton, hyoton, etc. . .), have two affinities and are able to combine them into a third element (wood, ice, etc. . . ), while kekkei tota users have three affinities.

Kakashi is able to use several elements at high levels due to a combination of being a genius ninja, training them like any other ninja can do and, perhaps most importantly, his sharingan.


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## Hasan (Oct 20, 2011)

Kakashi said Jonin are proficient with at least 2 elements. He himself is able to use 3 because he isn't an ordinary shinobi. He's praised as a genius from the very start; creating techniques at the age of 13 so, it shouldn't be a surprise if he's proficient with 3 elements.



Kung Pow said:


> *And people stop saying Kakashi?s use of Katon was a filler, it was not.He used it when he did the bell training and that scene was not a filler!*



As much as all Kakashi fans, including me, would like it to be canon, it's a filler, unfortunately. But I do believe, out of his 1000+ jutsu arsenal, there should be some Katons + Futons too.

He didn't show any of those 3 jutsus (Katon, Suiton and Doton) in the manga along with his amazing seal formation speed. Though they do mention it that it was amazingly fast.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 20, 2011)

Kung Pow, you need to stop getting hung up on the Senju Clan's inheritance. You're blowing its significance out of proportion.


Hasan said:


> But I do believe, out of his 1000+ jutsu arsenal, there should be some Katons + Futons too.


The problem with that is Kakashi has specified knowing only three elements.


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## Hasan (Oct 20, 2011)

Doctor Crane said:


> The problem with that is Kakashi has specified knowing only three elements.



 I guess you're right. Kakashi had very little knowledge of Futon in general. If he had any in his arsenal, he should have been knowledgeable to help Naruto in his training instead of referring to Asuma.


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## wooly Eullerex (Oct 20, 2011)

*Kirin* is only possible by using his *Katon* _power_ &mastery for making natural lightning to _manipulate_. 
Sa seems to produce fire at a higher rate. Jutsu rank refers to difficulty & skill, not power.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 20, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> I personally think that due to Yamato saying to Naruto that him using water element would depend on him being water natured and that shinobi spend all their live training and looking for their second and third "natures" in my oppinion meaning second and third secondary affinities.


Do you know what chapter/episode this conversation is in? Because I can't seem to find it and I'm beginning to think it's anime filler.


> In the fight between Kakashi and Kakuzu, Kakashi stated that nobody should be able to perform elemental jutsu "*at such high rate*" without the specific affinity for it.


"High caliber" but that may just be splitting hairs.


> Yamato said, he didn?t know a ninja *using* all 5 elements,not "using at a high rate", by that implying that the use of more than 2 or 3 is a very high accomplishment as well.


When does Yamato say this?


richmass said:


> It's the first element he learned and seeing as no other Konoha shinobi other than maybe Tsunade has shown Raiton techniques, i'm pretty sure Kakashi taught himself.


Chapter 425.


> Sasuke's affinity is the real mystery,


Kakashi's and Darui's statements seem to imply that Sasuke has a Raiton affinity, instead of a Katon affinity.


> Kakuzu could use 5 because he has 5 hearts,


Except Kakuzu only ever shows four elements: Doton, Fūton, Raiton, and Katon. He never shows Suiton.


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## ceralux (Oct 20, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> First off, when Kakuzu said that he wanted to replace the heart destroyed by Kakashi?s the Raiton figure was still intact.
> Also it is impossible to sense somebody?s affinity, so he couldn?t have known.
> 
> Your speculation about Yamato implying Naruto is dumb does not seem very plausible.
> ...



I stopped reading and concluded that anything you say is irrelevant after I saw the bolded statement.


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## Naruto Fighto (Oct 20, 2011)

Kakashi can use *all * elements because he is a mushroom cloud laying friend, friend. 

Also I wanted to hear OP's opinion on why ninjas can use different high lvl element jutsus......
Hiruzen Sarutobi must have known all the elements since he was said to have learned all jutsus in Konoha. I think the affinity only affects the speed at which you learn the elements.

Think of the paper test, Kakashis normal chakra is lightning natured since it interacts with the paper like electricity. I think Kakashi created chidori by just focusing his chakra to his hand which got converted to lightning spontaneously. If it comes natural then it's easy for him to do lightning jutsus. For other elements he has to make more effort I guess, that is why raikiri is his strongest technique. 
Ask Kishi.


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## Frostman (Oct 20, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> Obito showed the use of Katon Gokakyou No Jutsu at very young age as well, it is due to their Uchiha blood inheritance and their Fire natured chakra that they are just exceptionally talented with Katon techniques, which is why they are even able to produce them at such young age.
> Kakashi said that it would take a shinobi half his life to properly learn how to perform them.
> If you consider that he was 8 years old, there just has to be a certain talent inbound, and the only logical explanation is that he is fire natured.


No, Its a tradition for Uchiha's to train in katon. its like a right to passage into adulthood for them. Uchihas will train in it even if they have a different affinity. Its a pride thing.



> You are forgetting Sasuke?s Enton Release?
> His exceptional Fire proficiency due to his Fire natured chakra is vastly displayed in his use of Amaterasu.



I knew you'd say that. Enton and Katon are not the same thing. They are two different elements. Enton is an ability that comes with MS. It has nothing to do with chakara nature.  If it was then anyone could reach it if they trained hard enough in katon.




> There is just no other explanation, but for him to have multiple affinities.
> And if he has them, Kakashi and all the other nins defying the theory of just having one affinity do as well!
> *
> And people stop saying Kakashi?s use of Katon was a filler, it was not.*
> *He used it when he did the bell training and that scene was not a filler!*



It was not in the manga so it was filler. the anime team took a few harmless liberties to make the episode longer.


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## Haloman (Oct 20, 2011)

This thread is still going on? Kakashi has never been shown to use 4 chakra natures. He's only ever been shown to use Suiton, Raiton, and Doton techniques. Katon is not part of his arsenal in the manga. That was just something the anime team put in at some point.

The first time I can remember Kakashi using a Katon was the 2nd bell test against Naruto and Sakura (in Shippuuden). While the bell test itself wasn't filler, the use of Katon was.

The anime team always does stuff like this. Remember when KN8 used a giant stone column and pounded Deva Pain into the ground like a nail? Yeah. That didn't happen in the manga. You know why? Because if that had happened, Deva Pain would have been defeated. They are just human corpses, after all. And anyone getting driven into solid ground by force applied to the top of their skull would no longer function.

Sometimes I wonder what the anime team is smoking.


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## richmass (Oct 20, 2011)

If you're going to say something like, I don't care about manga/anime it's all the same. So why can Kakashi use four elements? Then you probably shouldn't be in the library.. It's for discussion about the manga.


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## Kazuya Mishima (Oct 20, 2011)

He needs something to make up for that piss poor stamina.


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## droidsteel (Oct 20, 2011)

Well the sharingan lets you copy techniques whatever nature they are (except kekkei genki). 

It dosen't mean kakashi can start using jutsus of all those natures, he just knows the ones he has copied. Lightning is his one true nature transformation, and i think the chidori and its variants are the only jutsu's he hasn't copied.


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## goldendriger (Oct 20, 2011)

Kazuya Mishima said:


> He needs something to make up for that piss poor stamina.



Okay id like to challenge that.
I realised recently only part 1 Kakashi had shit Stamina, Kamui is a bitch, but that aside. Look at the Hidan/Kakuzu ambush battle, Kakashi used Raikiri mulitple times, clones and kept his Sharingan active for the whole thing, even had chakra backed up for Kamui. Against the Deva he used a Doton, Raikiri, Lightning doggy, Raiton clone, and Kamui TWICE before dying. Heck now in the war he's kept Sharingan active for at least a day (Remember back against Zabuza? 10 minutes was too much) As well as streaming Raiton through Zabuza's Blade while fighting.

It may of sucked in Part 1, but during the time skip, i think Kakashi worked on his stamina.


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## Kazuya Mishima (Oct 20, 2011)

goldendriger said:


> Okay id like to challenge that.
> I realised recently only part 1 Kakashi had shit Stamina, Kamui is a bitch, but that aside. Look at the Hidan/Kakuzu ambush battle, Kakashi used Raikiri mulitple times, clones and kept his Sharingan active for the whole thing, even had chakra backed up for Kamui. Against the Deva he used a Doton, Raikiri, Lightning doggy, Raiton clone, and Kamui TWICE before dying. Heck now in the war he's kept Sharingan active for at least a day (Remember back against Zabuza? 10 minutes was too much) As well as streaming Raiton through Zabuza's Blade while fighting.
> 
> It may of sucked in Part 1, but during the time skip, i think Kakashi worked on his stamina.



Well I don't know what Kakashi's new stats are, but the last 3 databooks have given him 3's. Granted I don't always like using them so lets just focus on facts. Kakashi lost every fight you just listed due to not having enough stamina/chakra. So you proved my point. 

Kakashi has been impressing you by having his Sharingan active for more than 10 minutes? He has been fighting the 7 swordsmen of mist for over 50 chapters and still hasn't been able to finish them. Despite having Gai teaming up with him and Sai doing all the sealing for them.


----------



## Santoryu (Oct 20, 2011)

Kazuya Mishima said:


> He needs something to make up for that piss poor stamina.



Such nonsense.

 Kakashi's chakra capacity (either that, or his ability to use jutsu with enough precision to not use as much chakra and keeping sharingan active) has increased substantially. When we first seen him, he'd pass out after just using a Mizubushin, and 2 Suiton ninjutsu with the Sharingan active.

Fast foward to his battle with Kakazu: 
Kakashi used 6 Raikiri I believe (Suiton: Suijinheki and intended Mangekyō Sharingan usage (all this with Sharingan active) (granted, he would have ended up in the hospital by his own admission but still) all this with sharingan active


Foward to his battle with Pain:
With only half his chakra(his chakra was split in half after using the Raiton Kage Bunshin) Kakashi used three Raikiri (each take up a hefty amount of chakra)(assuming the fourth Raikiri and Raiton: Ryouken were used by his Raiton Kage Bunshin), a Doton: Moguragakure no Jutsu, a Doton: Doryūheki and one Kamui (excluding the second one that killed him)

Kakashi might not have tailed beast chakra levels, but he certainly has enough for a decent fight. 




Kazuya Mishima said:


> Well I don't know what Kakashi's new stats are, but the last 3 databooks have given him 3's. Granted I don't always like using them so lets just focus on facts. Kakashi lost every fight you just listed due to not having enough stamina/chakra. So you proved my point.



Kakashi lost vs Kakazu? IIRC Kakashi was the one who ended up killing him 

Futhemore Kakashi implied he would have taken out Kakazu even if Narutio didn't show up here 

Why he lost against Pain? Oh wait, he was doing just fine against Deva realm until Demon realm jumped in. Even after Demon realm jumped in 
he outsmarted Pain here with a lightning clone. 

Demon Realm was paralysed by Kakashi's Raibushin, and because God Realm had just used Banshou Tenin he was unable to use any of his gravity powers for another 5 seconds. Not only this, but God Realm was completely unaware of Kakashi's location (as he was hiding withint the rubble) and both God Realm's and Demon Realm's back were turned to him. This means that neither Realm would have been able to see where Kakashi was coming from, and being that one was completely paralysed and the other was unable to use his jutsu, they would of had no way of evading Kakashi's surprise attack. We saw that even with Kakuzu (a ninja with far more experience than either Nagato or Kakashi), Kakashi was able to easily sneek up on him without the slightest detection from Kakuzu. I don't see God Realm and Demon Realm being able to detect Kakashi in such a situation. because Chouji and Chouza's attack was dodged by God Realm, that Kakashi's attack would be dodged as well is totally insufficient. Firstly, their attack came from above. With simple periphial vision, a person can tell if something as large as to huge ass fists are flying towards them. Reacting to a lightning fast attack that is coming completely from behind is something totally different. 

In other words, he was doing just fine even before Chojo/Couza jumped in.





Kazuya Mishima said:


> Kakashi has been impressing you by having his Sharingan active for more than 10 minutes? He has been fighting the 7 swordsmen of mist for over 50 chapters and still hasn't been able to finish them. Despite having Gai teaming up with him and Sai doing all the sealing for them.



Now most of this happened off panel. The fact that you're using this as a detriment to Kakashi's chakra/stamina reserves is pathetic.


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## goldendriger (Oct 20, 2011)

Kazuya Mishima said:


> Well I don't know what Kakashi's new stats are, but the last 3 databooks have given him 3's. Granted I don't always like using them so lets just focus on facts. Kakashi lost every fight you just listed due to not having enough stamina/chakra. So you proved my point.
> 
> Kakashi has been impressing you by having his Sharingan active for more than 10 minutes? He has been fighting the 7 swordsmen of mist for over 50 chapters and still hasn't been able to finish them. Despite having Gai teaming up with him and Sai doing all the sealing for them.



Yeah, but they're the 7 ninja swordsmen (Okay 6 Zabuza's done) but Firstly Sai isnt in their squad, he was in the ambush squad, so he had to get there, that must of taken a few hours, up til then they had no way of sealing. But the fact he's still going and not dying from chakra exhaustion means that Kamui is much more draining than several Raikiri's, since he used Raikiri multiple times against Kakuzu yet used it twice against Deidara and was done for.

And he didnt really lose against Kakuzu, he was ready, willing and able to snipe him, just Naruto shown up to save him the trouble.
Only thing that is annoying me is we're stuck with Kakashi's old stats, his "3 in stamina" could be higher by now, since what it takes to put him in a hospital bed is much much more than what it took in Part 1.


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## Vermin (Oct 20, 2011)

Well, there are a few reasons I can think of to help you in your predicament.

1.
*Spoiler*: __ 



The Sharingan's third and most well-known ability is that it grants the user the ability to copy almost any technique that he or she witnesses, apart from other kekkei genkai techniques. The user can memorise ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu with near perfect accuracy, allowing the user to use the techniques as their own, or even modify them to create their own new techniques, much like Sasuke Uchiha's Lion Combo. In order to reproduce a copied technique, however, one must have the necessary skill or ability to perform them. A prime example is Rock Lee's brand of taijutsu. While Sasuke was able to copy some of Lee's moves, they put a much more significant strain on him since he hasn't trained nearly as much as Lee has. In addition to physical skill and kekkei genkai techniques, the Sharingan cannot reproduce techniques dependent on other factors, such as summons that the user has not signed a contract with. 




2.
*Spoiler*: __ 



Just because a you have an affinity to a certain element will not indicate that you can not learn another elemental technique.
So just because Kakashi's affinity is with lightning doesn't mean he can not learn Katon, Douton, or Suiton techniques.




3. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



This is not real! You are thinking about this stuff WAY too hard.




And that settles up my post for this thread.


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## Kazuya Mishima (Oct 20, 2011)

Santoryu said:


> Such nonsense.
> 
> Kakashi's chakra capacity (either that, or his ability to use jutsu with enough precision to not use as much chakra and keeping sharingan active) has increased substantially. When we first seen him, he'd pass out after just using a Mizubushin, and 2 Suiton ninjutsu with the Sharingan active.
> 
> ...




Then why does he lose every fight he is in and then get hospitalized for a month?



Santoryu said:


> Kakashi lost vs Kakazu? IIRC Kakashi was the one who ended up killing him
> 
> Futhemore Kakashi implied he would have taken out Kakazu even if Narutio didn't show up here
> 
> ...



1. Yeah Kakashi killed an already defeated Kakuzu. Naruto came in and did the hard work for him. You don't get credit for a win when you couldn't finish the fight. I don't care what Kakashi "implied", he was probably just embarrassed that he needed a genin to save his ass. 

2. What is the point to that wall of text? Kakashi got killed by Deva Path...aka he *lost*. 



Santoryu said:


> Now most of this happened off panel. The fact that you're using this as a detriment to Kakashi's chakra/stamina reserves is pathetic.



Facts are facts, it isn't "pathetic" to use them.



goldendriger said:


> Yeah, but they're the 7 ninja swordsmen (Okay 6 Zabuza's done) but Firstly Sai isnt in their squad, he was in the ambush squad, so he had to get there, that must of taken a few hours, up til then they had no way of sealing. But the fact he's still going and not dying from chakra exhaustion means that Kamui is much more draining than several Raikiri's, since he used Raikiri multiple times against Kakuzu yet used it twice against Deidara and was done for.



So Kakashi's division had no way of sealing until Sai got there? Each division has sealing tags so I don't want to hear that. I find it funny that Kakashi gets credit from his fans by "not dying from chakra exhaustion" lol. No other character gets rep for that. Gai said they have 3 more swordsmen to seal. If Kakashi is still fighting after that I will give him all the credit you want.



goldendriger said:


> And he didnt really lose against Kakuzu, he was ready, willing and able to snipe him, just Naruto shown up to save him the trouble.
> Only thing that is annoying me is we're stuck with Kakashi's old stats, his "3 in stamina" could be higher by now, since what it takes to put him in a hospital bed is much much more than what it took in Part 1.



Sadly Kakashi didn't and Naruto won the fight for him, so I can't count that as his win.


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## Santoryu (Oct 20, 2011)

Kazuya Mishima said:


> Then why does he lose every fight he is in and then get hospitalized for a month?



Part 1 Kakashi lost vs Itachi. Damn, a lot of shame in that isn't there?
lost again Pain? Damn, Kakashi must have low chakra since he lost against Pain? This is your logic? Fantastic (sarcasm) If you try to say that he died using a Kamui, I would like to remind you that Kakashi was done for even before he used it after tanking Pain's attack. He couldn't even move and still managed to use Kamui with great accuracy.



Kazuya Mishima said:


> 1. Yeah Kakashi killed an already defeated Kakuzu. Naruto came in and did the hard work for him. You don't get credit for a win when you couldn't finish the fight. I don't care what Kakashi "implied", he was probably just embarrassed that he needed a genin to save his ass.



Did you even read my post? He implied he could have taken out  Kakazu even before Naruto arrived, heck I even provided you with the manga scan but you I guess nothing works for some people...That "Genin" has one shotted kage level opponents with a clone. That "Genin" has surpassed most of Narutoverse. 



Kazuya Mishima said:


> 2. What is the point to that wall of text? Kakashi got killed by Deva Path...aka he *lost*.



It was to explain that Kakashi doesn't have low chakra/stamina reserves as you claimed. You're saying because he lost that means he has low chakra? 




Kazuya Mishima said:


> Facts are facts, it isn't "pathetic" to use them.



Except you have no idea what happened/which teq's were used during that fight which got off panelled.

Concession accepted


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Oct 20, 2011)

> If we take Kakashis fight with Zabuza for example, Kakashi only was able to copy the hand seals of Zabuza,who was using the water dragon technique. And there logically is no other benefit the Sharingan can grant, regarding the matter.



 The Sharingan taught him more than the head seals, it taught him everything about the jutsu(hand seals, element, & mechanics of the jutsu). Making it easier to learn.



> Being a genius is only benefitial to understanding how a technique might work, but in order to even be able to perply train, control and perform Nature Manipluation jutsu you need to repeatedly release the jutsu.(For example Naruto).



 Being a "genius"(having natural talent) makes it easier & faster ot learn jutsu. Naruto used 1000 clones to fit years of training in a a short time just to learn how to use nature manipulation, while Sasuke learned how to do use a new element, & a new jutsu in one month without clones.   



> Understanding the technique is one thing, but that fact does not aid you in the process of controllling a Nature technique, since it requires the user to properly have trained it first.



 Being a "genius"(having natural talent) makes it faster as Sasuke learned a new element in less than a month. The nature manipulation part of the technique is the hard part, especially if its one you don't have an affinaty(as was the case with Sasuke).



> And in order to shorten and decrease the practice time and period of control one needs the abilities of massive chakra, great stamina, life force and Nature affiliation quite frankly Senju inheritance neither Sasuke nor Kakshi despite being a far descendant show.



 This is not true for a couple of reason. 1) The Senju are not their Ancestor that is the Younger Son. 2) Sasuke is an Uchiha, descendants of the Elder Son 3) Kakashi has less chakra & stamina & a different nature affinaty than Sasuke.



> Now these abilities are mandatory not only for the proper training and control of Nature tecniques but also to just decrease the time of training and controlling them.



 That is not true some examples I can think of. The 3rd Hokage learned all the jutsu in Konoha, Itachi learned how to do the fire jutsu at a young age. Sasuke learned the same fire jutsu to a lesser degree at an older age than Itachi. Kakashi made a new jutsu Chidori at a young age.  



> Since the only way to learn how to control a jutsu, especially Nature Manipluation Jutsu, is to multiple release and perform them in order to get the hang out of it like for example Naruto has shown.



 Naruto uses clones, if he had not it would have taken him a couple of years to learn a jutsu(whether it has nature manipulation or not) like a regular ninja. Every ninja trains thats a given the only difference is the time needed for a ninja to learn a jutsu.



> Being a genius does not negate the fact of you needing to practice, since theory which can be quickly absorbed by a geniues is to be considered something completely different from the practical aspect of a jutsu.



 But it sure speeds up the process, giving you less practice time. Practice time is when you figure out the practical aspect of a jutsu &  if you are a genuis(having natural talent) you don't need to practice a much.



> And since neither Kakashi nor Sasuke posess the above mentioned abilities mandatory, in order to not only shorten the time of training but also the factor of control and amounts the user can release them, it is highly contradictional why Kakashi is seen to be able to use 4 different elements at very high level.(He was shown to use Fire in the bell scene, which most definately was not a filler!)



 I already answered why those abilities are not mandatory. As for the katon Kakashi used in the anime(the fact that it didn't show Kakashi use it in the manga makes it filler), it was a Grand Fireball. Both Itachi & Sasuke used this jutsu. It took Kakashi a minimum of about 50-60 hand seals to do a jutsu both Sasuke & Itachi only needed 5 hand seals to do. 



> And therefor being more proficient than the first,second and third Hoge who were all shown to at max use 2 elements.



 The 1st Hokage had an affinaty to 2 elements. He mastered them an made his on element(which Yamato uses to a weaker degree). Kakashi only has 1 affinaty. He can use 3 elements in the manga(4 in the anime), he has not mastered all of them yet. The 2nd Hokage was a master of water. He could do water jutsu without a water source. Kakashi needs a water source to do a water jutsu. The 3rd Hokage has learned all the jutsu in Konoha. Kakashi has learned only about 1000+ jutsu.



> He would then also be more proficient than the fifth Mizukage, who not only posesses 2 different Kekkei Genkai and shows extreme efficiency with Nature techniques but also Muu and Onki who are users of a whole new level of Nature techniques, the Kekkei Tota Dust Release, which requires the combination of three elements and therefor also demands complete mastery of them.



 These ninja have mastered multiple elements, Kakashi has not mastered all the elements he has used yet.



> And he achieved all that, despite having none of the abilities mandatory in order to shorten the training and control time and no significant innate abilities or inheritance.



 I already explained why those abilities are not mandatory.



> Now if consider Sasuke, who at the age of twelve had already mastered a high rank Katon technique and by the age of 12 - 16 had not only successfully obtained complete control over Raiton but also taken its shape manipulation to another level we need to think how this is possible.



 He didn't "master" the high rank katon technique he was able to peform it. Yes he learned an element he doesn't have an affinaty for in a short amount of time but he did not master it yet.



> He as well does not have great chakra, stamina reserves or life force.
> Neither does he show any signs of Nature affiliation.



 His chakra & stamina are better than Kakashi's, don't know about life force. His nature(element) affinaty is Fire.



> If we consider him to only have one affinity, how would it then be able for him to have brought both elements to such a high level?



 He has 1 affinaty its Fire. Just cause he can use high rank jutsu in both elements doesn't mean he has mastered both elements. 



> And the arguements.......
> 1.)"In a shinobis life they at least gain control over 2 - 3 elements", will not be accepted as Sasuke is only 16 years old.



 Sasuke is a genuis, trains alot had sensei's that taught him plenty of things, & is driven by goals that pushed him to work hard(even if they are mislead) 



> 2.)" He is a geniues", will not be accepted as I have mentioned above that the fact of being a genius does not decrease the amount of time the user needs to practice and control the technique but only to understand it.



 Being a genius(having natural talent) helps him pick up the basics quicker & the practical aspect of a jutsu by practicing reducing the rate of learning  jutsu compared to an average ninja.



> 3.)"He has the Sharingan", will not be acctepted, since the Sharingan can only grant copy features to the extent of the users capability, and since non of the abilities mandatory to posess in order to be able to even properly train and controll Nature techniques are in posession of Sasuke that arguement is crushed too in my oppinon.



 The Sharingan copies all aspects of a jutsu from hand seals, element, & the mechanics of a jutsu, allowing him to better understand the jutsu to learn it quicker, along with the time he puts in for training the jutsu.



> So a shinobi can either have multiple affinties or there is something wrong with the plot, because Sasuke just should not be able to produce two elements at such high rate.
> Including Kakshi as well of course.



 Both Sasuke & Itachi have 1 affinaty, and there is nothing wrong with the plot. They can use 2 or more elements at high rates but that doesn't mean they have mastered each element or are using those jutsu at 100% of their full potential.


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Oct 20, 2011)

> Obito showed the use of Katon Gokakyou No Jutsu at very young age as well, it is due to their Uchiha blood inheritance and their Fire natured chakra that they are just exceptionally talented with Katon techniques, which is why they are even able to produce them at such young age.
> Kakashi said that it would take a shinobi half his life to properly learn how to perform them.
> If you consider that he was 8 years old, there just has to be a certain talent inbound, and the only logical explanation is that he is fire natured.



 Uchiha are trained at a young age to do Fire jutsu, not all of them learn at the same rate though. Itachi was the quickest than Obito? than Sasuke? It also doesn't mean all the Uchiha mastered the Fire element.   



> You are forgetting Sasuke?s Enton Release?
> His exceptional Fire proficiency due to his Fire natured chakra is vastly displayed in his use of Amaterasu.



 The way he uses Amaterasu is similar to the way he uses Chidori, I think his proficiency with those jutsu is because he excels at ninjutsu. 



> And because he has taken Raiton even further than both Kakashi and the highest ranked nins of Kumogakure we have seen in battle we can conclude that his talent with Raiton is also to be referenced to an affinity for it. Even the Raikage himself was impressed by his use of Chidori.



 Sasuke's versatilaty has with raiton doesn't mean the strength of his jutsu are stronger than their jutsu. Sasuke's Chidiri is weaker than Kakashi's Raikiri, but Sasuke overall is stronger than Kakashi. Raikage may have been impressed but Sasuke's Chidori was no were near Raikage's Raiton armor, he had to switch to Amaterasu. 



> There is just no other explanation, but for him to have multiple affinities.And if he has them, Kakashi and all the other nins defying the theory of just having one affinity do as well!



 Sasuke only has Fire. Kakashi and most other ninja have 1 affinaty but can use multiple(on average 2-3) through training to learn others besides the 1 they have an affinaty for. The only difference between them is the time it takes each ninja to learn them.

 I have postd my observation & explaination of the time when Naruto has found out & learned how to use his nature manipulation. You should take a look at it.


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## Kazuya Mishima (Oct 20, 2011)

Santoryu said:


> Part 1 Kakashi lost vs Itachi. Damn, a lot of shame in that isn't there?
> lost again Pain? Damn, Kakashi must have low chakra since he lost against Pain? This is your logic? Fantastic (sarcasm) If you try to say that he died using a Kamui, I would like to remind you that Kakashi was done for even before he used it after tanking Pain's attack. He couldn't even move and still managed to use Kamui with great accuracy.



I said nothing of the sort, I simply said he has lost every fight he has been in unless it was against Zabuza. I never said it was pathetic to lose to Pain or Itachi. So stop putting words in my mouth.

What does the accuracy of Kamui have to do with being able to move your body?  More importantly what does this have to do with Kakashi having piss poor stamina?



Santoryu said:


> Did you even read my post? He implied he could have taken out  Kakazu even before Naruto arrived, heck I even provided you with the manga scan but you I guess nothing works for some people...That "Genin" has one shotted kage level opponents with a clone. That "Genin" has surpassed most of Narutoverse.



I read your post and answered it, so clearly you didn't read my post. Did you actually read that scan? Kakashi said he would have had to use MS. Not "Oh lawlz I could have won" lol. Obviously he would have to use MS since he was getting his ass handed to him. You are reading to much into it.




Santoryu said:


> It was to explain that Kakashi doesn't have low chakra/stamina reserves as you claimed. You're saying because he lost that means he has low chakra?



 Again you are putting words in my mouth. I dunno why you keep resorting to that. Kakashi has low chakra/stamina because he can only fire off a few techniques before becoming exhausted. He is the man who copied over a 1,000 jutsu, but we only see 3-4 techniques in each fight he has.





Santoryu said:


> Except you have no idea what happened/which teq's were used during that fight which got off panelled.



I don't really care what tech's were used. He has Gai teaming up with him and  hasn't been able to finish off the 7 swordsmen in 50 plus chapters. It's weak no matter how you look at it. At least compared to other "Kage" level ninja like Gaara who defeated and sealed two Kages in less time.




Santoryu said:


> Concession accepted



No concession was given and settle down with the attitude. It's quite pathetic for you to get so aggravated while talking about a manga.


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## Santoryu (Oct 20, 2011)

Kazuya Mishima said:


> I said nothing of the sort, I simply said he has lost every fight he has been in unless it was against Zabuza. I never said it was pathetic to lose to Pain or Itachi. So stop putting words in my mouth.
> 
> What does the accuracy of Kamui have to do with being able to move your body?  More importantly what does this have to do with *Kakashi having piss poor stamina? *



He doesn't. I already proved your theory wrong in the last few posts, not my fault if you like to ignore details.



Kazuya Mishima said:


> I read your post and answered it, so clearly you didn't read my post. Did you actually read that scan? Kakashi said he would have had to use MS. Not "Oh lawlz I could have won" lol. Obviously he would have to use MS since he was getting his ass handed to him. *You are reading to much into it*.



When Kakashi said [later on, after the battle] that he would have had to use the Mangekyou Sharingan had they not showed up that instant, and came to the conclusion that he would be in the hospital, per usual. That implies he would have survived the battle. Warping a blast, and then dying from another blast a few seconds later would result in his death. I already provided you this scan. *He was sure would end up in the hospital*.

So I'm reading too much into it?







Kazuya Mishima said:


> Again you are putting words in my mouth. I dunno why you keep resorting to that.* Kakashi has low chakra/stamina because he can only fire off a few techniques before becoming exhausted.* He is the man who copied over a 1,000 jutsu, but we only see 3-4 techniques in each fight he has.



Again, did you not read on my earlier posts? I explain  why Kakashi does not have low chakra/stamina. 






Kazuya Mishima said:


> I don't really care what tech's were used. He has Gai teaming up with him and  hasn't been able to finish off the 7 swordsmen in 50 plus chapters. It's weak no matter how you look at it. At least compared to other "Kage" level ninja like Gaara who defeated and sealed two Kages in less time.



Why not? For all we know Kakashi could have been swinging that sword around the whole battle without using any teq's which require a huge amount of chakra (Raikiri for example) Might guy might have not used his gates in the off panel? You're using a off panel fight as a detriment to Kakashi.





Kazuya Mishima said:


> No concession was given and settle down with the attitude. It's quite pathetic for you to get so aggravated while talking about a manga.



Funny coming from you


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## Kazuya Mishima (Oct 20, 2011)

Santoryu said:


> He doesn't. I already proved your theory wrong in the last few posts, not my fault if you like to ignore details.



 Thats pretty funny coming from you. C wut I did der? 



Santoryu said:


> When Kakashi said [later on, after the battle] that he would have had to use the Mangekyou Sharingan had they not showed up that instant, and came to the conclusion that he would be in the hospital, per usual. That implies he would have survived the battle. Warping a blast, and then dying from another blast a few seconds later would result in his death. I already provided you this scan. *He was sure would end up in the hospital*.
> 
> So I'm reading too much into it?



You are claiming Kakashi would have won the fight just because he said he would use MS. We have no clue if Kamui would have finished off his opponent. Especially one with multiple "hearts" that all need to be destroyed to kill him.



Santoryu said:


> Again, did you not read on my earlier posts? I explain  why Kakashi does not have low chakra/stamina.



Again...I have read all your posts dude. All you did there was explain how Kakashi losing is still really impressive in your eyes. Him getting saved by Naruto and Killed by Deva path doesn't help your case of him having "good stamina" lol.





Santoryu said:


> Why not? For all we know Kakashi could have been swinging that sword around the whole battle without using any teq's which require a huge amount of chakra (Raikiri for example) Might guy might have not used his gates in the off panel? You're using a off panel fight as a detriment to Kakashi.



So Kakashi has just been wasting chakra? Judging by the way he has fought all his battles, I doubt it. You keep missing my point. He hasn't beat a team of 7 swordsmen with Gai's help and Sai doing all the sealing. The strongest member of those swordsmen was killed by Kisame before he even had Samehada. Kakashi is one tier above fodder at this point in the manga. Get over it.



Santoryu said:


> Funny coming from you



I haven't lost my cool once. Yet you resorted to calling me pathetic in your first post. 

Then you are too irritated to debate so you just say "concession accepted" lol. Who does that?


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## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 21, 2011)

Kazuya Mishima said:


> Well I don't know what Kakashi's new stats are, but the last 3 databooks have given him 3's. Granted I don't always like using them so lets just focus on facts. Kakashi lost every fight you just listed due to not having enough stamina/chakra. So you proved my point.
> 
> Kakashi has been impressing you by having his Sharingan active for more than 10 minutes? He has been fighting the 7 swordsmen of mist for over 50 chapters and still hasn't been able to finish them. Despite having Gai teaming up with him and Sai doing all the sealing for them.





Such nonsense 

Do you even know what their abilities are? thats the  *strongest generation of swordsmans* plus gari and pakura and a few thousand zetsus fodders barely do anything and kakashi and guy have been fighting for more than one day, kakashi keeping his sharingan active, being hurt and using  that fucking sword that probably weights like 200 pounds plus using raikiri through it.

Saying that he is low in stamina just shows how ignorant you are and he and guy were going planning on killing the other thousand coming at them. Also kakashi one shotted kisame's teacher so thats just to show how damn good he is with the sword. Your post is really pathetic...


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## Kazuya Mishima (Oct 21, 2011)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Such nonsense
> 
> Do you even know what their abilities are? thats the  *strongest generation of swordsmans* plus gari and pakura and a few thousand zetsus fodders barely do anything and kakashi and guy have been fighting for more than one day, kakashi keeping his sharingan active, being hurt and using  that fucking sword that probably weights like 200 pounds plus using raikiri through it.
> 
> Saying that he is low in stamina just shows how ignorant you are and he and guy were going planning on killing the other thousand coming at them. Also kakashi one shotted kisame's teacher so thats just to show how damn good he is with the sword. Your post is really pathetic...



First of all...name calling over a manga? Classy. 

Now to rip apart your post.

1. Doesn't matter what the 7 swordsmens abilities are, the strongest member was killed by a Samehada-less Kisame without him getting a scratch on him. I don't care how hyped they are, that is pathetic. Every General except Kakashi have been taking down crazy powerful opponents like former Kages, Hanzo, Kin and Gin brothers, ect.

2. The white zetsu fodder are canceled out by the division fodder, so it's pointless for you to bring them up.

3. Pakura and Gari?  Their only feats are killing fodder. Why are you acting like they are so great?

4. So I am suppose to be impressed that Kakashi is swinging a sword that Zabuza and Suigetsu have both wielded with little trouble? I am sure it's pretty heavy, but if it was that big of an issue he wouldn't be using it. 

Fighting while being hurt? Welcome to the ninja world! It's his own fault if he is getting his ass kicked. That doesn't show he has impressive stamina.

Oh oh, but you think it's impressive that he has his sharingan active? Well he has no choice since he wouldn't be half as impressive without it.

5. The only pathetic things here are your obsession with Kakashi and getting so annoyed over my opinion of him. Clearly he didn't one shot Kisame's "teacher" since he was alive 50 chapters after the fight started. Even if he had, what would it matter? Kisame did the same thing while his mentor actually had Samehada. 


In that entire post you didn't give a single reason as to why Kakashi's stamina is so impressive now.

btw plugging in a bunch of  into your post doesn't make it correct


----------



## Saturnine (Oct 21, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> Also it is impossible to sense somebody?s affinity, so he couldn?t have known.



It IS possible, dawg. You use chakra paper and channel your chakra through it. The effects are as folows:

paper burns to ashes = fire
paper crumbles to dust = earth
paper gets wet = water
paper gets cut in two = wind
paper gets crumpled = lightning

That's how they determined Naruto's nature to be wind. Kakashi on the other hand is a fucking BAMF, so him knowing three or possibly four transformations is no big deal.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 21, 2011)

Kazuya Mishima said:


> First of all...name calling over a manga? Classy.
> 
> Now to rip apart your post.
> 
> ...



If it's *only* a manga then why are you discussing with me

1- Yeah kisame got him when he lowered his guard, even he said it so since it wasn't even a fight.

2- How are they cancelled? The are more zetsus than fodders and the swordsmans killed lots of alliance ninjas.

3- Madara only killed fodders, but he is god level already. Does that make them bad? That statement is pretty stupid.

4- Yeah swing a sword for 1 day using sharingan that takes a higher toll from him and streaming raiton into it while fighting thousands of opponents and you won't be tired....

5- I would defend any character if I see a big mouth troll like you who probably has some issues and talks nonsense bashing them for no reason, and  thats not the main reason, its that what you are saying doesn't have fucking sense. 

Again kisame sneaked on his master and killed him, and for all we know he just one shotted him

I don't know if you are trolling or not but it doesn't matter anymore

*You neg me because I told you the truth about your fail post.
I rep you because I feel sorry for you
*
*Next!*


----------



## DoflaMihawk (Oct 21, 2011)

Cuz Kakashi is Just. That. Good.


----------



## Saturnine (Oct 21, 2011)

Well in my opinion it works more like that the more elements you learn, the harder it is to learn the remaining ones. Like mastering your affinity element takes say 2 years, the second one takes say 4 years, and the third one takes say 8 years and so on. If it weren't the case, the Rinnegan's ability to instantly learn all natures wouldn't be that big a deal, now would it? Also, if it were as simple as just investing some years of practice, Hiruzen the Professor would be able to use all 5 natures, and Yamato said he doesn't know any shinobi who can, hence my theory is more plausible.


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## Kazuya Mishima (Oct 21, 2011)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> If it's *only* a manga then why are you discussing with me



lol this is a forum, discussions happen here. I simply had a problem with you flinging insults at me over a manga, that is all. I can't understand how you think that is normal for you to get so butthurt over a fictional story.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> 1- Yeah kisame got him when he lowered his guard, even he said it so since it wasn't even a fight.



He killed him like it was nothing, and it looked like quite a fight to me since there were like 9 swords sticking out of his mentor. We didn't see the fight so you are just making things up.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> 2- How are they cancelled? The are more zetsus than fodders and the swordsmans killed lots of alliance ninjas.



It's moot point, if your arguing that Kakashi is struggling more due to white zetsu's than he is more pathetic than I thought.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> 3- Madara only killed fodders, but he is god level already. Does that make them bad? That statement is pretty stupid.



He is god level because he was the second most powerful ninja of his age, has rinnegan/EMS, is still feared by many ninja today and he just summoned a meteor. See how simple things are when you use logic?



Crimson Flam3s said:


> 4- Yeah swing a sword for 1 day using sharingan that takes a higher toll from him and streaming raiton into it while fighting thousands of opponents and you won't be tired....



So I am suppose to be impressed that he has been fighting as long as all fodder in the alliance?

Btw, he hasn't been streaming raiton into it the whole time...
Madara was interred by Hashirama.

Way to fail again. 



Crimson Flam3s said:


> 5- I would defend any character if I see a big mouth troll like you who probably has some issues and talks nonsense bashing them for no reason, and  thats not the main reason, its that what you are saying doesn't have fucking sense.



I have issues? Yet you are the one who started flinging insults. Sweet logic bro! I have made plenty of sense and you haven't disputed anything I have said.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Again kisame sneaked on his master and killed him, and for all we know he just one shotted him



Possibly, but either way...it took 50 plus chapters for Kakashi to do what Kisame did in one panel. 




Crimson Flam3s said:


> I don't know if you are trolling or not but it doesn't matter anymore
> 
> *You neg me because I told you the truth about your fail post.
> I rep you because I feel sorry for you
> ...



I am not trolling at all, I have backed up everything I said. Your fanboyism simply blinds you to it.

No I neg you because you insulted me for no reason like a child. Thanks for the positive rep though, I'll take that as your subconscious concession.


----------



## Convicted playa (Oct 21, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> Now I have been reading up and working through the Nature Manipluation matter for a long time.
> 
> In the manga it seems everytime either Kakashi or Yamato explain the requirements for a shinobi to learn, control and perform certain chakra nature manipulation techniques, affinieties or the fact the shinobi is natured in the element he wants to learn come up.
> 
> ...



I remember it was stated that for you to learn 5 natures you needed to go beyond normal means and use the help of forbidden techniques or certain bloodlines. 

The sharingan can analyse any technique but cannot replicate it if the use is not capable of using the technique in the first place. However since the sharingan can analyse the techniques it makes it easier for the user to learn how to use the element because they now know how the nature chakra is formed.

Other then that you can learn 4 nature types from training and mastering how 
to form the specific nature element.


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## Kiss (Oct 22, 2011)

Because he's portrayed as a versatile and skillful ninja?


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## richmass (Oct 22, 2011)

Kazuya Mishima said:


> lol this is a forum, discussions happen here. I simply had a problem with you flinging insults at me over a manga, that is all. I can't understand how you think that is normal for you to get so butthurt over a fictional story.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kakashi's stamina is not bad at all.. Infact he's got great stamina in part 2.

Against Pain he used one high level doton wall, then a Raikiri, then a lightning wolf, plus another raikiri and then his lightning clone technique.. shortly followed by two Kamui. To summarize, that's five S rank techniques, one A rank and one B rank jutsu. Plus two of them were mangekyou techniques. That does not make his stamina poor in any way.

He has great feats, his speed was praised by Madara, Itachi has praised his skill many times, he kept up with Mangekyou spamming Sasuke, something Danzou couldn't do without being killed 10+ times. He blitzed Zabuza, would have taken out Deva realm in a 1v1, and avoided every single one of Kakuzu's and Hidan's attacks. He's untouchable when he's got his sharingan active. Him fighting the seven swordsman for a day straight is a great feat, considering they're edo tenseis and therefore regenerate, Kakashi and Gai could have killed them each multiple times before Sai managed to seal one. And even if not, they're fighting S rank criminals for a day straight, without taking any damage and even sealing a few. There is the 7 strongest ninja swordsman ever to live, four expert Kekkei genkai users, plus an army of zetsu for them to fight. Kakashi's doing a great job.


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## Santoryu (Oct 22, 2011)

Kazuya Mishima said:


> Thats pretty funny coming from you. C wut I did der?
> 
> 
> 
> You are claiming Kakashi would have won the fight just because he said he would use MS. We have no clue if Kamui would have finished off his opponent. Especially one with multiple "hearts" that all need to be destroyed to kill him.



 read after the second quote, the bolded part. 

Not to mention

 he'd shown enough against Deidara to indicate he'd be able to take Kakuzu with kamui. It was a much similar situation, in fact.

Deidara's clone had already detonated and the blast was spreading (Team Gai was trying to dodge it) and Kakashi used Kamui and was able to warp away the clone along with the blast. Not only does that go to show Kamui's immense power (to be able to suck back an expanding blast) but also proves Kakashi is able to get rid off both the source (in this case it will be Kakuzu) and the blast (in this case jutsu) as well.


All in all, Kakuzu was still holding onto Kakashi and was charging his attack. The time window in which Naruto and Yamato intervened with their combo, Kakashi could've used Kamui.








Kazuya Mishima said:


> Again...I have read all your posts dude. All you did there was explain how Kakashi losing is still really impressive in your eyes. Him getting saved by Naruto and Killed by Deva path doesn't help your case of him having "good stamina" lol.



 Really? I thought you read my posts? Then why did you forget to mention why Kakashi is not chakra depleted as you are implying?  You have failed to refute the main point which started off this debate.







Kazuya Mishima said:


> So Kakashi has just been wasting chakra? Judging by the way he has fought all his battles, I doubt it. You keep missing my point. He hasn't beat a team of 7 swordsmen with Gai's help and Sai doing all the sealing. The strongest member of those swordsmen was killed by Kisame before he even had Samehada. Kakashi is one tier above fodder at this point in the manga. Get over it.
> 
> I haven't lost my cool once. Yet you resorted to calling me pathetic in your first post.
> 
> Then you are too irritated to debate so you just say "concession accepted" lol. Who does that?



Why not?  I refuted your theory about Kakashi having "piss poor stamina" your words in my first  post on this thread. What did you do? Refute my points? Nah....You replied with this



Kazuya Mishima said:


> Then why does he lose every fight he is in and then get hospitalized for a month?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





lets review this shall we?



what you posted ^

My response 

clearly, I have already refuted your theory ^



You trying to save face ^

I provided you with enough evidence to conclude Kakashi does not have "poor piss stamina" as you claimed. Yet you reply with this. And yes, I did say you using a off panel fight to justify your point is pathetic.

I'm telling you this because you don't get it, you think you get it, which isn't the same as actually getting it. Get it?


----------



## WraithX959 (Oct 22, 2011)

An individual can definitely have more than one affinity, and the proof of this already exist in the manga. The whole of the Uchiha Clan has a katon affinity. Sasuke's personal affinity is raiton, yet he was still able to learn and master several katon ninjutsu at such a young age that it surprised both his father and Kakashi.

People don't seem to understand what exactly the word affinity means.

*Affinity*

af?fin?i?ty (-fn-t)
n. pl. af?fin?i?ties 
*1. A natural attraction, liking, or feeling of kinship.
*2. Relationship by marriage.
3. An inherent similarity between persons or things. See Synonyms at likeness.
4. Biology A relationship or resemblance in structure between species that suggests a common origin.
5. Immunology The attraction between an antigen and an antibody.
6. Chemistry An attraction or force between particles that causes them to combine.



1: relationship by marriage 
2a : sympathy marked by community of interest : kinship *b (1) : an attraction to or liking for something <people with an affinity to darkness — Mark Twain> <pork and fennel have a natural affinity for each other — Abby Mandel> (2) : an attractive force between substances or particles that causes them to enter into and remain in chemical combination *c : a person especially of the opposite sex having a particular attraction for one 
3a : likeness based on relationship or causal connection <found an affinity between the teller of a tale and the craftsman — Mary McCarthy> <this investigation, with affinities to a case history, a psychoanalysis, a detective story — Oliver Sacks> b : a relation between biological groups involving resemblance in structural plan and indicating a common origin

There are 5 elemental natures, it is very possible that individuals can be more adapt at using 2 out of the 5. If that is in fact the case, then individuals can in fact have more than one affinity. It all depends on the context, if we are talking strictly about the Raiton and Katon, then of course Raiton would be Sasuke main affinity, however if Sasuke was to learn a third element, do you think that he would be able to use that elemental on the same level as his katons?


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## Seon (Oct 22, 2011)

Very good post I've been wondering this myself for quite some time... The manga seemed to go from

1. Any ninja if they can perform the proper handseals, have the right amount of chakra, and/or stamina, as long as they have the right chakra control, can perform any technique.

to  this

Natural affinities.. basically if you don't have the affinity for the technique you cannot use the jutsu


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 22, 2011)

Kakashi can only use *3* chakra natures - Raiton, Suiton and Doton.

I think the reason why Kakashi has access to 3 chakra natures, instead of just one or two, as with most characters, is probably the fact that he's an incredible genius who has amazing chakra control and has the Sharingan to aid him in copying jutsu of other elements, and help him mold the correct elemental chakra.


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## Olympian (Oct 22, 2011)

richmass said:


> He blitzed Zabuza, would have taken out Deva realm in a 1v1, and avoided every single one of Kakuzu's and Hidan's attacks. He's untouchable when he's got his sharingan active.



That is..quite an abreviated view on what happened, considering he was not only touched, he was kicked. Kakashi`s damn good, but no need to say he`s close to be untouchable or anything.


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## richmass (Oct 22, 2011)

Olympian said:


> That is..quite an abreviated view on what happened, considering he was not only touched, he was kicked. Kakashi`s damn good, but no need to say he`s close to be untouchable or anything.



I exaggerated a little, he was hit twice by kakuzu, once when he thought he was dead, and another when he engaged him in hand to hand, and got snared by his jiongu. He's close to untouchable with his sharingan activated, nobody has touched him, not even Itachi.


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## richmass (Oct 22, 2011)

Kazuya Mishima said:


> 1. Those aren't all S-rank techniques. Earth wall is B and the lightning wolf isn't even ranked yet. To shortly summarize, you're making stuff up.
> 
> 2. Shikamaru was praised by *Tobi* too, who cares?
> 
> ...



It's a very safe assumption that the Raikiri wolf will likely be an S rank jutsu, as it is an expansion of his S rank Raikiri. I'm not making anything up.. I said that Doton wall was B rank. Btw that's still a Jounin level technique.

Yes, Shikamaru was. And that's because he's the most intelligent Shinobi in the entire manga. He was praised for his intelligence, not his speed, as Kakashi was. Tobi has only praised few people, including Itachi, Shikamaru and Kakashi.

Sasuke was blind because he was using his Susanoo, which he then used against Kakashi. Being worn out does not make you any slower or stronger than you would regularly be. Ninjas mostly use chakra to move, and unless they're so exhausted that they do not have enough chakra to move properly, it won't make a difference. Compared to using S rank jutsu, which Sasuke uses regularly, shunshin + other methods of high speed movement are nothing. Danzou was killed by a Sasuke in much the same state many times.

Well given the fact that he beat Asura, and almost took down Deva realm too with only the help of fodder, it's a safe bet that he could have.

It's taken him over 50 chapters because there are so many different fights going on at the same time, it's impossible to cover them all quickly. Kakashi blitzed Zabuza, which shows how much he's improved since part one. He's also sealed most of the seven swordsman already, and doesn't seem to have taken any hits. He's against 10 very powerful shinobi, and he's also protecting his entire division. The fact that he also blitzed another of the Seven swordsman shows that his speed is in fact worthy of praise.


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## Kazuya Mishima (Oct 22, 2011)

richmass said:


> It's a very safe assumption that the Raikiri wolf will likely be an S rank jutsu, as it is an expansion of his S rank Raikiri. I'm not making anything up.. I said that Doton wall was B rank. Btw that's still a Jounin level technique.
> 
> Yes, Shikamaru was. And that's because he's the most intelligent Shinobi in the entire manga. He was praised for his intelligence, not his speed, as Kakashi was. Tobi has only praised few people, including Itachi, Shikamaru and Kakashi.
> 
> ...



1. I do apologize I didn't see that you said that, I was multitasking. I just am not impressed either way. We have guys like Gaara and Onoki who can spam S rank all day. I am not saying Kakashi is weak, but I do think his stamina sucks.

2. My point is, that praise has nothing to do with his stamina.

3. How does being worn out not make you slower or less strong? That makes no sense. If you're exhausted all your abilites are going to be less impressive. Sauce poured almost all the chakra he had into the Danzo fight. He was in no condition to be fighting a fully rested Kakashi. So again, that speaks nothing for Kakashi's stamina.

4. Could have, would have, should have. I don't deal in "what if's" lol.

5. He didn't seal any of the 7 swordsmen...Sai has been doing that for him. Gai is also watching his back. He has been protecting his division? Show me a scan of him saving anyone and i'll agree. He blitzed a swordsmen who didn't even have his sword.  lol a swordsmen who was fodderized by Kisame before he even got Samehada, off panel. I respect your opinion, but nothing you said leads me to believe his stamina is any more impressive.





Santoryu said:


> read after the second quote, the bolded part.
> 
> Not to mention
> 
> ...



There is no reason to have such an attitude. Why act so rude over a manga? 

Everything you are bringing up, I have already disputed. We clearly just have different opinions. I was merely having a friendly debate, but you obviously got butthurt. You are acting smug/arrogant for no reason. I am done derailing this thread with our pissing contest, so have a nice day.


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## Gabe (Oct 22, 2011)

He can only use three if i remember right katon was only used in the anime. He can only use raton suton and doton


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## Kung Pow (Oct 23, 2011)

Frostman said:


> I knew you'd say that. Enton and Katon are not the same thing. *They are two different elements*. Enton is an ability that comes with MS. *It has nothing to do with chakara nature*.  If it was then anyone could reach it if they trained hard enough in katon.



Absolutely not, as a matter of fact that is complete nonsense.

Enton is not a new element, such as for example Mokuton, but rather  only the designation Sasuke gives his "Blaze" Release, which is actually just a further advancement of shape manipulation considering his Amatersu. 

You are severly confusing the two.

Amaterasu is a fire technique, why do you think it appeared within the Uchiha which are legendary and known for the extreme proficiency and talents with Katon?

In order for Sasuke to have even been able to further shape manipulate Amaterasu, he had to be massively proficient with fire itself.

Amaterasu is Katon just an extremely enhanced variation, only because they don?t say the release does not mean it is not realted.


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## King Scoop (Oct 23, 2011)

Most Jounin know at least 2 elements. Kakashi is a genius and had Raiton mastered by the time he was 12. He's just had plenty of time to learn 2 other elements. Especially since they were at a time of peace for 13 years.

Also Sasuke's affinity is Raiton. He was forced to learn Katon since he's an Uchiha.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 23, 2011)

The main question that hasn?t been answered after 6 pages is,

*
1.)Are there multiple affinities, except Kekkei Genkai?

2.)Can a shinobi only be proficient with the element he has an affinity for with a clear distinction in performance to the ones he does not have an affinity to?

3.)Why can Kakashi use 3 of them if his chakra reserves, stamina and life force are insufficient for the proper training and control of such high level elemental jutsu, therefor it should have taken him much much longer to learn them all.
Also being a genius only helps with theory, practically performing a jutsu still requires training to control, also the Sharingan can only copy the hand seals, what else could it copy?
The release of the technique needs to be properly trained, and as Kakshi stated himself it normally takes a shinobi half their lives to control 1.
And since he has no exceptional abilities or advantages considering the training and control of it, he simply should not be able to use 3 elements at such a high level.
*

@Doctor Crane, the scene in which Kakshi first trained Team 7 by making them catch the bells.
It was one of the earlier episodes, I will look it up.
But in there Kakashi was definately using Katon.

It was definately not a filler.
In the Anime fillers clearly being and end.

But that episode was directly in the middle of two story line episodes, so it just cannot be a filler.


----------



## Appleofeden (Oct 23, 2011)

B/c the " nature affinity' thing is a retcon. It was never mentioned until Naruto's wind training arc. This is one of the true retcons of part 2.


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## Cocoa (Oct 23, 2011)

He has only shown three elements in the manga. Thus he can only use three. The anime is not canon.

/thread


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## BrokenBonds (Oct 23, 2011)

Three elements, he never used any Katon techniques canonly.

Anyways, with him being a genius and having a Sharingan (which can copy the mechanics / hand signs of the techniques) I do believe it's very possible. Yes it takes half your lifetime to master one elemental technique for a _fodder_, Kakashi is a main character with the _Sharingan._

Finally, _*why does it matter?*_. Seriously.


----------



## Kung Pow (Oct 23, 2011)

BrokenBonds said:


> Three elements, he never used any Katon techniques canonly.
> 
> Anyways, with him being a genius and having a Sharingan (which can copy the mechanics / hand signs of the techniques) I do believe it's very possible. Yes it takes half your lifetime to master one elemental technique for a _fodder_, Kakashi is a main character with the _Sharingan._
> 
> Finally, _*why does it matter?*_. Seriously.



You said it yourself.

The sharingan can at *most *copy the hand seals and *nothing *more!

The sharingan can in fact only provide copy features to the extent of the user?s ability.

And especially with Elemental jutsu which need to be trained at an extreme rate the Sharingan cannot do more than copy the movement of the opponent?s hands while forming seals.

To shorten the training and control time of Elemental Jutsu one needs extreme chakra reserves, stamina and life force such as for example Naruto and his training method which could only be absolved by him due to his posession of the aforementioned abilities.

Kakashi on the other hand, as stated by himself multiple times has only a very small fraction of Naruto?s chakra reserves if not even less.

Basically meaning he has a very low chakra resevior, almost no stamina and life force.

Now I just cannot understand how someone that lacks these abilities can obtain full control of elements he does not have an affinity to, and perform them at such high rate?

Being a genius is fine but it cannot physically help you to perform a technique, especially with Elemental jutsu huge amounts of practice and multiple use of the jutsu are required in order to gain full control.

If being a main character is the solution to this question, the value of the manga and nostalgy of the story can be trashed right now.

Maybe in Dragonball or Bleach you can argue with "It is just a Manga, only fictional so don?t take it so seriously".

But do not start with that stuff in Naruto please, him being a main character should not be the answer!


----------



## BrokenBonds (Oct 23, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> If being a main character is the solution to this question, the value of the manga and nostalgy of the story can be trashed right now.
> 
> Maybe in Dragonball or Bleach you can argue with "It is just a Manga, only fictional so don?t take it so seriously".
> 
> But do not start with that stuff in Naruto please, him being a main character should not be the answer!


An average jonin has usually mastered two elements, Kishimoto giving Kakashi a third is just his way of saying that he's not an average jonin. Yes, it's because of his main character status but come on man, it's such an insignificant detail it shouldn't even matter and should definitely not "[ruin] the value of the manga and nostalgy of the story."


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## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 23, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> 1.)Are there multiple affinities, except Kekkei Genkai?


None that have been confirmed.


> 2.)Can a shinobi only be proficient with the element he has an affinity for with a clear distinction in performance to the ones he does not have an affinity to?


There hasn't been mention of Inton ('Yin Release') or Yōton ('Yang Release') affinities, but characters can be skilled with them. As for elemental releases, Kakashi's statement about Kakuzu implies an affinity element will likely be more powerful than a non-affinity element. Of course, that is dependent on training.


> 3.)Why can Kakashi use 3 of them if his chakra reserves, stamina and life force are insufficient for the proper training and control of such high level elemental jutsu, therefor it should have taken him much much longer to learn them all.


Just like how chakra is made of mental/spiritual energy and physical energy, practice and perfomance of techniques is part physical and part mental. Kakashi's mental prowess will aid him in the process; work smarter, not harder.


> Also being a genius only helps with theory, practically performing a jutsu still requires training to control, also the Sharingan can only copy the hand seals, what else could it copy?


Sharingan isn't limited to just handseals. It can see the flow of chakra.


> The release of the technique needs to be properly trained, and as Kakshi stated himself it normally takes a shinobi half their lives to control 1.


Manga page, please. 


> @Doctor Crane, the scene in which Kakshi first trained Team 7 by making them catch the bells.
> It was one of the earlier episodes, I will look it up.
> But in there Kakashi was definately using Katon.
> 
> ...


I'm well aware of the scene; I've seen it. However, the anime will add scenes and episodes to lengthen the particular episode or arc, and since these instances have no direct manga counterparts (occasionally going against manga statements), they are considered filler and, thus, inadmissible in Konoha Library.


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## BurningVegeta (Oct 23, 2011)

The fact that Hiruzen was known for his mastery of all forms of shinobi combat, and his vast knowledge of techniques, purportedly knowing all the techniques within Konoha. Any argument that people cannot have use more than one/two nature elements is void. Considering there were blatant Katon, Doton, Suiton and Raiton users present in his reign of Hokage alone.


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## Epyon (Oct 24, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> You said it yourself.
> 
> The sharingan can at *most *copy the hand seals and *nothing *more!
> 
> ...



I find myself at a loss here. Kakashi is 26. He's been training since he was 5. What exactly gave you the idea that it didn't take him years to master Raiton, Doton and Suiton? And no, Kakashi has _average _energy reserves, Naruto is the freak for having entirely too much of it.


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## Edo Madara (Oct 24, 2011)

Kakashi just that awesome
he can mastered sharingan in the same level of the best uchiha and he awakened MS, a feat that only a few uchiha can do

I mean how many uchiha can mastered multiple element like kakashi?
so far in the manga.........nothing, kakashi is the only one who can achieved such feat

don't underestimated kakashi yo


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## MS81 (Oct 24, 2011)

Edo Madara said:


> Kakashi just that awesome
> he can mastered sharingan in the same level of the best uchiha and he awakened MS, a feat that only a few uchiha can do
> 
> I mean how many uchiha can mastered multiple element like kakashi?
> ...



uhmm....Sasuke have 3 elements bruh....

Katon,Enton,and Raiton!!!!


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## Thunder (Oct 24, 2011)

In short: ninja can learn any element they want, provided they have enough time — it's just easier for them to work with whatever their affinity is. Kakashi's natural born talent combined with his Sharingan allowed him to learn two other elements (_Katon_ isn't canon).


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## Kung Pow (Oct 24, 2011)

Epyon said:


> I find myself at a loss here. Kakashi is 26. He's been training since he was 5. What exactly gave you the idea that it didn't take him years to master Raiton, Doton and Suiton? And no, Kakashi has _average _energy reserves, Naruto is the freak for having entirely too much of it.



Until Kakashi gained his Sharingan he was 15 if we crossreference his age with Obito's.
Even though the Sharingan's ability does not aid one in the practice, control or control of Elemental Jutsu let's assume he started copying and learning Elemental techs from there.
In regard to jutsu mimicry, the Sharingan can serve as analyzing feature.
Meaning, it can only provide intel and knowledge about how a techniqiue is performed.
That fact is still vastly insufficient for the control of Nature Manipulation, as it not only requires the user's spiritual energy to comprehend, but by far more his physical energy both in a practice and multiple use point of view in order to gain control.
The sharingan shouldn't be able to help with that.

Before he obtained the sharingan Kakashi was a fodder ninja, with a very high intelect.

I personally believe that he had mastered only Chidori, which is multiple times said to be his only original jutsu.
So a genius mastering a jutsu with standard shape manipulation and his affiniated element is no big whoop.

Concluding these facts from the manga he must have learned Katon and Suiton from copying.
Suiton even most probably from the fight with zabuza.

And since he only had the Sharingan from the age of 15, 
26-15,  it leaves him 8 years to have successfully learned how to perfectly control and master multiple high level Elemental techniques including Doton and.Suiton and also with Raiton he developed a few others than Chidori.

Now I don't even think it is exactly 8, bit rather a little less, let's take his age from the last time he performed these elemantal attacks,
He already did Suiton with Zabuza perfectly but since hed could not have just copied it he must have known it before.
That was the water dragon I think.
I tgen remember him doing Water wall against Kakuzu, Earth hideout against Itachi, and Mud Wall against Sasuke.

So basically the averge value would be 4-5 years, in which he was definately on missions half the time.
And I just do not think that with his lack of chakra and stamina, he would be able to control, and use these techniques multiple times at such a rate.
As stated  a chakra's amount and strenght only increases with multiple use and exhaustion, also a genius has to go through it.
Since we have never seen him train we can conclude that Kishi considered it trivial to depict the training of a character with so many abilities but no exptional talents or abilities, except a borrowed sharingan and a great mind.

I would be really disappointed if his proficiency would be explained by him being a main character.
Naruto to me is just as nostalgic as for example, Vampire/Werewolf stories or Avatar, big things you just don't want plot holes in because the story is so significant.


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## Epyon (Oct 24, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> Until Kakashi gained his Sharingan he was 15 if we crossreference his age with Obito's.
> Even though the Sharingan's ability does not aid one in the practice, control or control of Elemental Jutsu let's assume he started copying and learning Elemental techs from there.
> In regard to jutsu mimicry, the Sharingan can serve as analyzing feature.
> Meaning, it can only provide intel and knowledge about how a techniqiue is performed.
> ...



Okay first of all. Chidori is his only original jutsu, in part 1. As in, the only one he himself created. That does not stop him from learning _other already existing jutsu before that LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE GODDAMN MANGA. _

OBVIOUSLY, by the time he created Chidori, he had already mastered the Raiton Element.

Secondly, I don't what idiotic source told you Kakashi got the Sharingan when he was 15, but we see the mission where het gets the Sharingan.

Guess what? THE THIRD SHINOBIWAR IS STILL GOING ON! MINATO IS STILL ALIVE! HE'S NOT EVEN HOKAGE YET!. Which means that it is OBVIOUSLY at least 13 years before Part 1.

So, that leaves us 6+ years for Kakashi to master manipulating Doton chakra and start learning and copying Doton jutsus, and another 6+ years to learn how to manipulate Suiton chakra, before Part 1 by whichtime he is ready to screw with Kisame and Zabuza. 

Considering pre-Academy Sasuke masters Katon in like a month, and Itachi probably came out of the womb firing fireballs, I do not ge twhat the big deal with this concept is.


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## Treant (Oct 24, 2011)

The fact is that if you train, you'll be more powerful in which you're training.

So, Kakashi demonstrated that he can use a S jutsu (raikiri) like if he was using a Kunai. it's because lightning is his "affinity", and he is very skilled with it; 
The others, are all natures that he "learned to use, with training".

the "MS" was unlocked by training, and the other natures (and the skill with it) can be learned/upgraded by training, as well.

and don't misunderstand: Hiruzen was said to be "Professor", the man who had knowledge on every single jutsu of konoha, but nothing is said about he "using" them, at least here, in the translation of my country.


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## cant i guest post (Oct 24, 2011)

A shinobi can only have one "natural" affinity.  With practice or by using the sharingan's copy ability (kakashi) one can learn to use more than one element without the use of a kekkai genkai.  This allows the user to be able to use jutsus outside of their "natural" affinity, though at reduced chakra efficiency and power. 

eg. 
Kakashi and Sasuke have lightning affinities.  Thus they are able to spam more lightning jutsus than they would be able to with a different element.


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## Evil (Oct 24, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> 2.)" He is a geniues", will not be accepted as I have mentioned above that the fact of being a genius does not decrease the amount of time the user needs to practice and control the technique but only to understand it.



You're just plain wrong about that, it's *because* he's a genius.

In the Chuunin exam alone we have Gai and Lee allude to this, once where Gai says you can't simply copy part of the Omote Renge, that you have to train and practice it for weeks and despite that Sasuke was able to execute it perfectly and add a creative ending to it. Then we have Lee later go on to say that it took him years to get as fast as Sasuke, while it only took Sasuke weeks to achieve the same thing. This is followed by his labeling of Sasuke as a "... genius who surpasses the imagination."

Hell during the FRS training, Kakashi tells Naruto that it normally takes months just to cut the leaf, and that it took even Sasuke a week.

It takes normal people months just to do one stage of the elemental recomposition in their own affinity, so of course you likely won't see people using more than one or two elemental abilities simply because it's just that tedious. I imagine the further you get away from your own affinity the harder it becomes to master the new element.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 24, 2011)

Evil said:


> You're just plain wrong about that, it's *because* he's a genius.
> 
> In the Chuunin exam alone we have Gai and Lee allude to this, once where Gai says you can't simply copy part of the Omote Renge, that you have to train and practice it for weeks and despite that Sasuke was able to execute it perfectly and add a creative ending to it. Then we have Lee later go on to say that it took him years to get as fast as Sasuke, while it only took Sasuke weeks to achieve the same thing. This is followed by his labeling of Sasuke as a "... genius who surpasses the imagination."
> 
> ...



1.) As we all know Lee is a very modest character, and was completely untalented considering any form of jutsu, he achieved it through hard training and overcame is lack of talent, whicg is why it took him so long..
Him praising Sasuke for "performing" the technique is not significant if these facts are considered.
Also your emphesis on Sasuke's "perfect" use of the technique does not cover the fact that he actually wasn't even able to partially perform it.
He added the last move because, the curse seal tried to take over, he had no chakra and the the full execution was too much for him at the time, so please don't try to rewrite the events to your advantage.  

2.)I think you are refering to Sasuke's nature manipulation training, cause Sasuke never cut a leave
We also never saw him train, and also weren't given exact data on the period of time he required until he was able to use Chidori or other Katon techniques.
Only that Kakashi told  him  he would die if he performed Chidori morw then two times at his current state, but that doesn't imply anthing.

3.)Your last statement made my point.
    I completely agree!






cant i guest post said:


> eg.
> Kakashi and Sasuke have lightning affinities.  Thus they are able to spam more lightning jutsus than they would be able to with a different element.



The amount of times a Natural jutsu can be performed is completely dependant on the user's chakra reserves, stamina and life force.
Their affinity only interferes with the jutsu's efficiency.

Normally Kakashi was only able to use Chidori three times max, cause his chakra and stamina is too low for example.
Only in the Kakuzu fight Kishi overdid ot a little



Treant said:


> The fact is that if you train, you'll be more powerful in which you're training.
> 
> So, Kakashi demonstrated that he can use a S jutsu (raikiri) like if he was using a Kunai. it's because lightning is his "affinity", and he is very skilled with it;
> The others, are all natures that he "learned to use, with training".
> ...



Yeah that is probably why he trains^^

But even considering the training of elemental jutsu, abilities are required in order to be able to train more efficiently and especially faster, without them it should take a shinobi as stated by Kakashi half his life for a single element.

The fast training, control and efficient use of an elemental technique requires vast chakra reserves, stamina and life force.
Training a technique means repeadetly performing it.
Since Kakashi has none of the aforementioned abilities it should have taken him much much longer to perform his elemental attacks at such high rate and he shouldn't be able to perform all of them so proficiently.

Think about it, he stated himself that after 3 Chidori  his chakra would already be depleted, even though it is his affinity and he had mastered the element.

Now Earth and Water aren't even his affinities, and he mostly not even uses shape manipulation as a base so he has to spend more chakra on releasing the pure Nature element.
And then additionally considering his chakra level and stamina, he shouldn't have even had the time to train them all or at least not performing them all at such high rate.

That is my problem with it basically.


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## iamtheSage (Feb 18, 2014)

As i recall in the anime, just as you may remember. Kakashi is capable of performing the Rasengan that his sensei created. 

The Rasengan, if you may remember, is a wind style technique that takes three training stages of wind chakra control. Now correct me if i'm wrong, Kakashi's sharingan is capable of copy the most difficult of jutsu.

Now you might be thinking since there are no hand seals needed to create a rasengan, it would be impossible for Kakashi to copy the technique. The thing of the matter is that most people seem to forget that Kakashi was trained by Minato Namikaze, the creator of the rasengan.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 18, 2014)

iamtheSage said:


> As i recall in the anime, just as you may remember. Kakashi is capable of performing the Rasengan that his sensei created.
> 
> The Rasengan, if you may remember, is a wind style technique that takes three training stages of wind chakra control. Now correct me if i'm wrong, Kakashi's sharingan is capable of copy the most difficult of jutsu.
> 
> Now you might be thinking since there are no hand seals needed to create a rasengan, it would be impossible for Kakashi to copy the technique. The thing of the matter is that most people seem to forget that Kakashi was trained by Minato Namikaze, the creator of the rasengan.



First post and you go to a thread from 2 years ago .

Rasengan isn't wind style. It's not anything except spatial manipulation. Naruto added wind style to it creating Rasenshuriken.


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## JPongo (Feb 18, 2014)

^Not to mention quoting the anime


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## ?_Camorra_? (Feb 18, 2014)

Ninjas can use all chakra nature but only have 1 elemental affinity. Affinity means the element their chakra leans the most to so even if Kakashi would to learn jutsu with all elements his highest rank elemental jutsus would still be Raiton based since his chakra type is lightning. So every shinobi could potential have B-rank techniques with all elements but no S-ranked because S-ranked means highest difficulty to learn and are usualy unique to certain individuals.
Or they have special requirements.


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## Bahamut Slayer (Feb 18, 2014)

I think it can be said that any shinobi can perform an elemental Ninjutsu as long as they know how it's done. A person's affinity to a particular element simply shows how easier it would be for someone to use said element. It's already a fact given that the Shinobi Alliance managed to perform a basic Doton technique when Shikamaru had Kitsuchi teach him the necessary hand seals and had Ino linked him to everyone. While it is possible, the strength or effectiveness of a technique still depends on the person's affinity to a particular element.

I remember reading a post, mentioning it's only natural that a shinobi would train with the element they're best at. Make use of their biggest arsenal. Naruto is naturally a wind element user, it's better for him, easier and faster for him to learn something he already has an affinity to. Not many shinobi reach old age, and those who do are masters of what they're good at. Hiruzen as an example, presumably given time and experience, a shinobi can master all five elements. 

It's possible for someone like Kakashi to be able to use all five elements in the future. 

He has the Sharingan, allows him to copy elemental techniques like Zabuza's Suiryuudan and Kisame's Suikodan. At first, it made me wonder if he can only copy elemental techniques that matches his elemental chakra. But if the basis is that anyone can perform any element, then theoretically he should be able to copy any elemental hand seal using technique. 

That being said, I think Kakashi would have been more bad ass if Kishimoto had allowed Kakashi to use Kakuzu's Doton: Domu. Hardened skin that can only be pierced by Raiton would stop Kakashi from being wounded all the time. The guy gets wounded a lot.


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## Magicbullet (Feb 18, 2014)

Wasn't that three tho?


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## Kung Pow (Feb 18, 2014)

†_Camorra_† said:


> Ninjas can use all chakra nature but only have *1 elemental *affinity.


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## the real anti christ (Feb 18, 2014)

Copy Ninja mutha fucker. LOL jk


All good points raised. I think there is some vagueness and contradiction so far between what Yamato and Kakashi have said. Lets wait and see.


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## Danzio (Feb 18, 2014)

I don't know why  people keep saying Kakashi can use 4, seriously.


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## Kung Pow (Feb 18, 2014)

Lol, check the date on this thread

For some reason, people keep bumping my old beginner threads


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## kidloco (Feb 18, 2014)

he cant do shit...

maybe do that but the rest, not sure if can..

he may copie 1000 jutsus but... never developed and the natural? without the shariganshit, he is nothing, using that cancer is make him nothing... except getting blind

so he cant do shit...


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## SharinganKisame (Feb 18, 2014)

Danzio said:


> I don't know why  people keep saying Kakashi can use 4, seriously.



in the anime he was shown using katon


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## Gibbs (Feb 18, 2014)

He's not called the copy ninja for nothing.


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## Young Lord Minato (Feb 18, 2014)

I assume he can use 4 elements because of the Sharingan or because of his advanced level


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## Animal Realm (Feb 18, 2014)

Kung Pow, those scan mean nothing. He's saying that they can use more than one chakra nature, not that they have affinity for more than one. Otherwise why would it say "most Jounin have more than two"? Surely if people could have two natures, it wouldn't matter if they were genin, jounin or a Kage. 

It's canon fact that ninja have one elemental affinity. That is the element that they can use with the most ease, and least amount of effort and/or skill/talent needed. Kekkai Genkai users MAY be an exception to the rule, but it's entirely possible that they only have an affinity for one half of their KKG combination and have to learn how to use the other one in order to mix the two -- hence why Hashirama isn't seen using Mokuton early in life, because he'd only mastered one half of the necessary natures. (Just a theory)


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## SaiST (Feb 18, 2014)

Kung Pow said:


>


The only instance in which affinities are spoken of in those pages is when Kakashi mentions that the nature Naruto aligns with is still unknown. 

All that has ever been said about Sasuke's proficiency with Nature Release techniques is that he can utilize both Katon and Raiton; Kishimoto has not revealed which nature he has an affinity for just yet. I personally surmise that, like the vast majority of Uchiha, he aligns with Katon, and has been able to advance his Raiton to such an extent due to it's inherent versatility, and his extraordinary talent. 

What †_Camorra_† said is accurate, all Shinobi—given enough time 'n talent—can learn to recompose their chakra to any of the five natures(as recently demonstrated by Hiruzen), but they'll only have an affinity for one. The only possible exceptions lie in those with Kekkei Genkai that allow the creation of a new Nature Release, like Mokuton and Hyouton. And of course, there are abilities that break the mold, and allow all five to be used at their apex, like the Rinnegan, and Kakuzu's Jiongu.

So, anyways, I would normally delete posts starting with the one that necro'd this thread, but discussion has kind of sparked back up here. Do you want the thread to be closed, Kung Pow? Or shall I leave it be?


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## the real anti christ (Feb 18, 2014)

No don't lock please :< This is still super relevant.

Here are some panels I have been saving. I was hoping for more canon to emerge but I guess this is all we are getting for now.



Hey must be the money Rinnegan:




*Spoiler*: __


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## Kung Pow (Feb 19, 2014)

SaiST said:


> The only instance in which affinities are spoken of in those pages is when Kakashi mentions that the nature Naruto aligns with is still unknown.
> 
> All that has ever been said about Sasuke's proficiency with Nature Release techniques is that he can utilize both Katon and Raiton; Kishimoto has not revealed which nature he has an affinity for just yet. I personally surmise that, like the vast majority of Uchiha, he aligns with Katon, and has been able to advance his Raiton to such an extent due to it's inherent versatility, and his extraordinary talent.



According to your assessment, Sasuke being an Uchiha naturally implies him also having a fire affinity.
So why do you think is it, that Sasuke has not only used equal amounts of highly ranked Raiton jutsu, but also has individually developed unique Raiton techniques that he has displayed vast proficiency with, as opposed to his Katon repertoir?

Logically, one would rather invest time in developing and 
advancing an element they also possessed an affinity towards, however Sasuke has displayed considerable expertise with both.

Sasuke?s Katon use are mostly considering preliminary techniques, which have been developed prior to his performance of them.

However, in terms of his Raiton use, Sasuke has obviously invested considerable amounts of effort and time to create individual extensions of his Chidori, and therefor new and unique techniques.

_  Chidori 
    Chidori Nagashi
    Chidori Senbon
    Chidori Sharp Spear 
    Cursed Seal of Heaven _

In conclusion, I do not believe that one could display such significant proficiency with two elements, while talent being the sole cause of it.

The only logical explanation would be, that in very special cases, a shinobi can have two affinities.
And frankly, Sasuke is obviously very special to Kishi and this storyline.


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