# Kimimaro Kaguya vs The 3rd Raikage



## Csdabest (Apr 30, 2014)

*Match of the Strongest Shield and Spear.*

Location: VOTE
Distance: 20 Meters
Knowledge: None
Conditions: Kimimaro is at his strongest and is healthy. Both start in base and will advance in forms as the battle intensifies. Both of their strongest Shield can pierce clean through one another body.

Who Wins?​


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## RedChidori (Apr 30, 2014)

3rd Raikage fuckin eviscerates Kimi with Nukite. This match results in the most horrific and violent stomps known to man .


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## Alex Payne (Apr 30, 2014)

Even with your conditions Raikage is still superior to Kimi in every area. He tears him apart.


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## GearsUp (Apr 30, 2014)

lol, the hell is this?


*Spoiler*: __ 



_Sawarabi no Mai._


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## Gibbs (Apr 30, 2014)

GearsUp said:


> lol, the hell is this?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Are you Wanh?

__________________________________________


On topic: Raikage lolBlitzes and decapitates Kimimaro.

OP What do you have against Kimi?


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## Trojan (Apr 30, 2014)

Kimmimaro summons his mother Kaguya.


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## GearsUp (Apr 30, 2014)

The Phoenix King said:


> Are you Wanh?



the hell is _Wanh_?


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## Csdabest (Apr 30, 2014)

RedChidori said:


> 3rd Raikage fuckin eviscerates Kimi with Nukite. This match results in the most horrific and violent stomps known to man .





alex payne said:


> Even with your conditions Raikage is still superior to Kimi in every area. He tears him apart.





The Phoenix King said:


> Are you Wanh?
> 
> __________________________________________
> 
> ...



Alright... care to explain yourselves. Raikage failed to defeat KCM Naruto Clone while Kimimaro off paneled his. Also As far as Physical Capabilities are Kimimaro>/=Hebi Sasuke. Hebi Sasuke is also vastly superior to Taka/Akatsuki Sasuke in physical capabilities. Taka Sasuke who was injured shown to keep up with Killer Bee in both Base and Chakra mode up to a certain degree and dodged in "Mid-air" Killer Bee fastest attack. 3-tomoe Sasuke also shown to be on par if not superior than Ei in his V1 Lightning Shroud. Ei also dodged Amaterasu in V2 Shroud. 

But as we know Hebi Sasuke>Taka Sasuke in physical capabilities and hebi Sasuke managed to dodge Amaterasu and out run it for quite some time. So If Kimimaro>/=Hebi Sasuke in physical abilities. Then im going to need you all to explain something.

HOW IN THE WORLD DOES KIMIMARO GET DESTROYED IN A PHYSICAL MATCH-UP OF CQC WHEN TAKA SASUKE HELD HIS OWN JUST FINE AGAINST A FASTER OPPONENT.

So please I would like to see how Kimimaro is soo inferior. Especially when he is Practically Hebi Sasuke with just a different bloodline. A Superior bloodline for CQC. Same speed tier as Hebi Sasuke and Curse Mark to boost his speed. The Same Hebi Sasuke that dodge Amaterasu. Kimimaro has the strongest Body kekkei genkai in the Narutoverse and has one of the best Durability feats in the manga till this day. And Kimimaro also has an insane strength feat in shattering a substance harder and stronger than the strongest steel into pieces. Its Mind boggling on how people underestimate him.


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## ueharakk (Apr 30, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Both of their *strongest Shield* can pierce clean through one another body.]


do you mean 'strongest spear' instead of shield?  Because to me it doesn't make sense for their shields to pierce through the other guy's body.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Apr 30, 2014)

The Raikage is faster, stronger, has a better defense, and a vastly better spear. And black lightning if he wants to stun Kimimaro. 

I actually do think this would be a fun match,and that Kimimaro could hold his own for awhile, but there is really no doubt of the outcome.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 30, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Alright... care to explain yourselves. Raikage failed to defeat KCM Naruto Clone while Kimimaro off paneled his.


KCM Naruto clone that fought Raikage received specific info and help. We don't know what happened to the clone that fought Kimimaro+_Chiyo_. Yeah, don't forget about Chiyo.




Csdabest said:


> Also As far as Physical Capabilities are Kimimaro>/=Hebi Sasuke.


 False



Csdabest said:


> Hebi Sasuke is also vastly superior to Taka/Akatsuki Sasuke in physical capabilities.


 False. He is superior but not by much.



Csdabest said:


> Taka Sasuke who was injured shown to keep up with Killer Bee in both Base and Chakra mode up to a certain degree and dodged in "Mid-air" Killer Bee fastest attack. 3-tomoe Sasuke also shown to be on par if not superior than Ei in his V1 Lightning Shroud. Ei also dodged Amaterasu in V2 Shroud.


 Yeah. No relation to Kimi, who is inferior to Sauce and Kumo bros.



Csdabest said:


> But as we know Hebi Sasuke>Taka Sasuke in physical capabilities and hebi Sasuke managed to dodge Amaterasu and out run it for quite some time. So If Kimimaro>/=Hebi Sasuke in physical abilities. Then im going to need you all to explain something.
> 
> HOW IN THE WORLD DOES KIMIMARO GET DESTROYED IN A PHYSICAL MATCH-UP OF CQC WHEN TAKA SASUKE HELD HIS OWN JUST FINE AGAINST A FASTER OPPONENT.


  Part 2 Sasuke is above Kimimaro in everything except durability and taijutsu. A good deal above. 



Csdabest said:


> So please I would like to see how Kimimaro is soo inferior. Especially when he is Practically Hebi Sasuke with just a different bloodline. A Superior bloodline for CQC. Same speed tier as Hebi Sasuke and Curse Mark to boost his speed. The Same Hebi Sasuke that dodge Amaterasu. Kimimaro has the strongest Body kekkei genkai in the Narutoverse and has one of the best Durability feats in the manga till this day. And Kimimaro also has an insane strength feat in shattering a substance harder and stronger than the strongest steel into pieces. Its Mind boggling on how people underestimate him.


Kimimaro was stopped by Part 1 out-of-surgery Lee. Legitimately stopped, he was giving his all to get Sasuke to Orochimaru. And was unable to pursue Naruto after Lee appeared. Do you see Part 1 Lee doing anything to any iteration of P2 Sasuke? I don't.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 30, 2014)

3rd Raikage blitzes, punctures Kimimaro's belly with his Nukite, and shotguns him like a can of cheap beer.



ueharakk said:


> do you mean 'strongest spear' instead of shield?  Because to me it doesn't make sense for their shields to pierce through the other guy's body.



Rule 34


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## Cheeky Nayrudo (Apr 30, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Alright... care to explain yourselves. Raikage failed to defeat KCM Naruto Clone while Kimimaro off paneled his.


He missed *one* hit, after several successful ones, then let Naruto go. Off panaled as in? It was a clone and they weren't 1v1



> Also As far as Physical Capabilities are Kimimaro>/=Hebi Sasuke. Hebi Sasuke is also vastly superior to Taka/Akatsuki Sasuke in physical capabilities. Taka Sasuke who was injured shown to keep up with Killer Bee in both Base and Chakra mode up to a certain degree and dodged in "Mid-air" Killer Bee fastest attack. 3-tomoe Sasuke also shown to be on par if not superior than Ei in his V1 Lightning Shroud. Ei also dodged Amaterasu in V2 Shroud.


"Vastly", lol. He didn't keep up with Bee, he got outclassed and dodged Bee's lariat thanks to it being linear and sharingan, which Kimi does not have. 3-tomoe Sasuke being superior than Ei is fanfiction, without Susano-o he would have been mush on the ground. Not relevant to Kimi at the slightest, in fast Kimi would've lost harder since he has no sharingan



> But as we know Hebi Sasuke>Taka Sasuke in physical capabilities and hebi Sasuke managed to dodge Amaterasu and out run it for quite some time. So If Kimimaro>/=Hebi Sasuke in physical abilities. Then im going to need you all to explain something.


Amaterasu was from an exhausted Itachi that dragged it out, not spawning it, Sasuke would've been caught if Itachi spawned new flame.

I don't get the point of you dragging Taka and Hebi Sasuke into this,  Kimi > Hebi/Taka is speculation. They both have sharingan and is faster than Kimi.



> HOW IN THE WORLD DOES KIMIMARO GET DESTROYED IN A PHYSICAL MATCH-UP OF CQC WHEN TAKA SASUKE HELD HIS OWN JUST FINE AGAINST A FASTER OPPONENT.


Held his own? Who are we talking about? Bee and his swords/lariat dropping Sasuke near death or Ei and Susano-o/Gaara that saved Sasuke?



> So please I would like to see how Kimimaro is soo inferior. Especially when he is Practically Hebi Sasuke with just a different bloodline. A Superior bloodline for CQC. Same speed tier as Hebi Sasuke and Curse Mark to boost his speed. The Same Hebi Sasuke that dodge Amaterasu. Kimimaro has the strongest Body kekkei genkai in the Narutoverse and has one of the best Durability feats in the manga till this day. And Kimimaro also has an insane strength feat in shattering a substance harder and stronger than the strongest steel into pieces. Its Mind boggling on how people underestimate him.


He isn't Hebi Sasuke, he doesn't have sharingan nor the speed of Sasuke, Sasuke didn't doge Amaterasu. Kimi's curse mark makes him slower, durability means naught with the condition, didn't shatter anything stronger than strongest steel. 

Kimi got trouble fighting part 1 Lee. He gets turned into mush.


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## Skywalker (Apr 30, 2014)

This is one of Kimis worst match ups because the Raikages can rip through him like butter.

What did he ever do to you?


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## Cognitios (Apr 30, 2014)

Raikage going in dry or with lube?
Raikage is a tier above high kage, what I call the legendary tier.
Kimimaro is low kage, no matter how you look at it.
Raikage tanks anything and then pokes him with one finger.
Raikage no diff.


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## Csdabest (Apr 30, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Raikage going in dry or with lube?
> Raikage is a tier above high kage, what I call the legendary tier.
> Kimimaro is low kage, no matter how you look at it.
> Raikage tanks anything and then pokes him with one finger.
> Raikage no diff.





SubtleObscurantist said:


> The Raikage is faster, stronger, has a better defense, and a vastly better spear. And black lightning if he wants to stun Kimimaro.
> 
> I actually do think this would be a fun match,and that Kimimaro could hold his own for awhile, but there is really no doubt of the outcome.





Raikage durability is stated to be like Iron. The Hardest substance Kimimaro perceived was Gaara Shield of Shukaku which compressed the hardest minerals together inside the earth. the hardest mineral known to man is Diamond/Adamantium(Not marvel). Kimimaro can layer his skin with bone and his bones are stated to be stronger than steel. Steel and Iron while not exact have virtually the same durability as far as strength and hardness goes.(Iron is abit more malleable i believe.)

Hebi Sasuke w/ Curse Seal of Heaven dodged Amaterasu from Itachi and was fast enough to interrupt his hand seals. Both Sasuke and Kimimaro have base speed Stats of 4.5. It was stated that Curse Seal of Earth was Equal in power. Meaning that the boost should be the same. So Kimimaro speed should be cross reference with the speed it takes to dodge amaterasu. A Feat that has only been replicated by V2 Raikage(Ei). So far Ei is portrayed as being faster than his father while his father durability is greater. How much is uncertain. But Kimimaro's peak speed with Curse seal should be V2 Raikage level. Since V2 Raikage shares the same speed feat as Hebi Sasuke w/ CS. And I already explained how Kimimaro speed should be respected.

As far as kimimaro's strength goes. he was able to move through Gaara sand attacks, break from Gaara sand coffin and sand funeral. Not to mention that his ultimate spear(which pierced through diamond level durability.) was stated to be his strongest bone. His Regular Bones were already stated to be Harder Than strongest steel already. His Striking power was able to shatter that level of hardness, strength, durability to little pieces.



alex payne said:


> KCM Naruto clone that fought Raikage received specific info and help. We don't know what happened to the clone that fought Kimimaro+_Chiyo_. Yeah, don't forget about Chiyo.


 True But Naruto issued out a direct challenge against Kimimaro. One of the Main Objectives of Akatsuki's army is to capture Naruto. But all we are left with is Kimimaro still being around while KCM Naruto isnt. Signfying at the very least Naruto couldn't put down Kimimaro.




> False



How so? Naruto Databook Stat was 31.5 while Kimimaro was 30.5. Sasuke had Kimim beat in Genjutsu and Ninjutsu which contributes to Sasuke style and not Kimimaro. We know Databook stats is the shinobi base abilities. The Curse seal of earth is stated to be as strong as the curse seal of heaven. Hebi Sasuke was capable of Dodging Amaterasu in speed. So if CS boost Hebi Sasuke speed to that level then it should do the same to Kimimaro especially if their seals are just as strong and have the same power

*Kimimaro's Seal Strength*


Juugo states that Sasuke is the only one to have ever fully adapted to juugo power other than Kimimaro. Kimimaro couldnt handle it fully vs Gaara most likely due to his failing body. So if the power increase the same Kimimaro CS boosted speed should be around Sasuke CS boosted speed. This would effectively put Kimimaro speed and agility around or at the level of Ei's V2 Speed. A Speed taka Sasuke was barely able to handle and Hebi Sasuke is vastly superior.



> False. He is superior but not by much.


Actually it is vastly. Hebi Sasuke was able to interrupt Itachi's hand seal speed before its finish. A Speed Kakashi was not able to track. Considering How Kakashi performed against Edo Zabuza to shows that outside of Kamui...kakashi hasnt really improved much(outside of plot stamina) Kakashi was able to go toe to toe with base sasuke bloodlusted Taka Sasuke and almost get the better of him. 

That alone right there shows a huge difference in speed. Not to mention Taka Sasuke damn near got borderlined blitzed by a shinobi who dodge one burst of Amaterasu while Hebi Sasuke doded it from Itachi and outran it for quite some distance.  Like I said. I only said vastly superior as far as Physical stats go. Everyone and their mom stated Taka Sasuke was a glass canon. Not to mention Hebi Sasuke had no issues tanking explosions, giant katons, and Juugo punches. VASTLY SUPERIOR



> Yeah. No relation to Kimi, who is inferior to Sauce and Kumo bros.
> 
> Part 2 Sasuke is above Kimimaro in everything except durability and taijutsu. A good deal above.


How isn't it. This is a discussion about physical stats. You can use A>B>C logic in reference to strength, speed, and durability levels in comparison. And with A>B>C logic as far as physical capabilities go in generally speaking V2 Raikage=Kimimaro=Hebi Sasuke>>>Sandaime Raikage> Killer Bee>/ 100% Taka Sasuke. Curse Seal of Heaven boosted Hebi Sasuke 4.5 speed enough to dodge Amaterasu. Curse seal of Earth is just as strong. So it should boost kimimaro speed in a similar manner. Dodging Amaterasu is V2 speed. That right there is enough to atleast say That no one is getting blitzed in this match up. Especially since V2 Raikage>>>Sandaime in Speed.

Right now Durability is a thing in itself. Kimimaro can make a bone layer under his skin and he can make his bones Harder stan steel. Which its strength,hardness, durability is in the same league as iron. the same durability that Sandaime Is hyped to have. So durability is virutally the same between the two as far as external damage goes. But Kimimaro does have the better peircing feat.

The Greatest thing Sandaime Raikage peirced was himself and his Iron like Body. The Greatest thing Kimimaro peirced was Gaara industrutible shield which is made from the hardest minerals found in the earth. The Hardest minerals found inside the earth is diamond. 





> Kimimaro was stopped by Part 1 out-of-surgery Lee. Legitimately stopped, he was giving his all to get Sasuke to Orochimaru. And was unable to pursue Naruto after Lee appeared. Do you see Part 1 Lee doing anything to any iteration of P2 Sasuke? I don't.



False. Kimimaro had willed himself to get off of his deathbed before the fight. Which is why I put him as healthy with Orochimaru Chakra(Edo Kimimaro just instead he is living) Kimimaro humored Rock Lee due to his skill in CQC. Hell he even stopped to let Kimimaro have his medicine. Sasuke was on his way to orochimaru by himself there was  no need to hold Sasuke's hand back to Orochimaru especially when he wouldn't have made it back due to his illness. Rock Lee wasnt enough. And Gaara who had the clear advantage in their fight with his AOE long range ability of controlling the battlefield. Yet Kimimaro still fought through this and almost killed both of them.


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## ueharakk (Apr 30, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Raikage durability is stated to be like Iron. The Hardest substance Kimimaro perceived was Gaara Shield of Shukaku which compressed the hardest minerals together inside the earth. the hardest mineral known to man is Diamond/Adamantium(Not marvel). Kimimaro can layer his skin with bone and his bones are stated to be stronger than steel. Steel and Iron while not exact have virtually the same durability as far as strength and hardness goes.(Iron is abit more malleable i believe.)


false.  

Sandaime's skin was said to be like STEEL, and blood like iron.  However, obviously his body is much more durable than that since pain's chakra rods are 3 times more durable than steel, yet naruto's rasengan destroys them with ease.

Next, kusanagi which is stated to be able to cut daimond couldn't even damage KN4 naruto who is obviously less durable than the man hyped 250 chapters later as the strongest shield with feats to back it up.

Plus, on top of that durability he gets a huge boost from the power of his RnY cloak. 



Csdabest said:


> Hebi Sasuke w/ Curse Seal of Heaven dodged Amaterasu from Itachi and was fast enough to interrupt his hand seals. Both Sasuke and Kimimaro have base speed Stats of 4.5. It was stated that Curse Seal of Earth was Equal in power. Meaning that the boost should be the same. So Kimimaro speed should be cross reference with the speed it takes to dodge amaterasu.


Hebi sasuke dodged amaterasu momentarily by using his sharingan to predict when itachi would fire the technique and thus allowing him to shunshin before Itachi fired it.  Ei on the otherhand, shunshins in response to sasuke firing the technique and still unlike Hebi sasuke manages to completely avoid it and escape the sharingan completely.

Kimimaro doesn't have the sharingan, so he doesn't predict it and doesn't even manage to dodge its initial blast.  Finally, Asuma also had a 4.5 in speed, does that mean he's anywhere near hebi sasuke's speed?  Obviously not.



Csdabest said:


> As far as kimimaro's strength goes. he was able to move through Gaara sand attacks, break from Gaara sand coffin and sand funeral. Not to mention that his ultimate spear(which pierced through diamond level durability.) was stated to be his strongest bone. His Regular Bones were already stated to be Harder Than strongest steel already. His Striking power was able to shatter that level of hardness, strength, durability to little pieces.


And Sandaime raikage was able to burst out of war arc gaara's mother sand hold.  "Diamond-level durability" (which you assume since gaara's statement only implies toughest minerals in the immediate soil) means jack squat since the diamond/adamantine-cutting kusanagi fails to pierce KN4 naruto's cloak.



However, assuming the stipulations means kimi's strongest spear will go through sandaime raikage, I can see this being a good match since despite kimimaro having the significant strength and speed disadvantage, that stuff becomes almost irrelevant when he decides to surround Sandaime in a CS2 forest of bone and *do this.*  I'd still favor sandaime raikage to win though considering he's reacted and *dodged point blank FRS from behind* without being warned of it.  And once he learns of kimi's ability to pop out of his bone, he just exits the forest or makes a clearing.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 30, 2014)

Is the 3rd going in with cream or pie, or both?

That ass is grass, maine.


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## Sabco (Apr 30, 2014)

Well

3rd raikage is the strongest raikage ever


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## ARGUS (Apr 30, 2014)

Third raikage stomps neg diff


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## Bonly (Apr 30, 2014)

The Sandaime fingers Kimi to death, well either that or the Sandaime starts fisting Kimi.


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## Gibbs (Apr 30, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Alright... care to explain yourselves. Raikage failed to defeat KCM Naruto Clone while Kimimaro off paneled his. Also As far as Physical Capabilities are Kimimaro>/=Hebi Sasuke. Hebi Sasuke is also vastly superior to Taka/Akatsuki Sasuke in physical capabilities. Taka Sasuke who was injured shown to keep up with Killer Bee in both Base and Chakra mode up to a certain degree and dodged in "Mid-air" Killer Bee fastest attack. 3-tomoe Sasuke also shown to be on par if not superior than Ei in his V1 Lightning Shroud. Ei also dodged Amaterasu in V2 Shroud.
> 
> 
> It is called Plot & him having edo buffs.It's called Sharingan Pre-cognition factor, which allowed Sasuke to keep up.Sasuke using Chidori Current is equal to Kimimaro's CS2 form.
> ...





Kimimaro is great at defending against blunt force attacks I'll give you that. But Raikage's piercing attacks like Nukite are undeniable stronger than anything Kimimaro can defend against. 


Also responses in Red.


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## Risyth (Apr 30, 2014)




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## Ashi (Apr 30, 2014)

Raikage blitzes and rapes in an unimaginable stomp


No really what made you think this was a fair match even with your unfair stipulation


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## Veracity (Apr 30, 2014)

I don't understand how everyone is so concrete on the baseless assumption of Hebi Sasuke = Healthy Kimmi.

This is literally based upon the most minuscule of statements. Jugo merely said that Kimmi could handle his outbreaks just as easily as Sasuke. And this would make sense if you consider Kimmis abilities in contrast to Hebi Sasukes.

We also have to consider how ridiculous character statements are sometimes.... Like Jirayia > Itachi + Kisame.

Anyway, Injury Recovering Part 1 Lee was able to heavily pressure Kimi in combat, so far so that Lee without gates was able to nearly blitz Kimmi, moving so fast Kimmi couldn't physically react. Drunken Lee was also able to nigh casually evade all of Kimmis attacks, and unless you believe drunken Lee posses more taijustu skill then a Raikage, then I see no problem with the Sandaime Raikage causally dodging. So basically unless healthy Kimmi is multitudes faster then sick Kimmi(doubt it, seeing as sick Itachi wasn't ridiculously slower then Edo Itachi) then Sandaime Kage wins this almost no difficulty.


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## Csdabest (Apr 30, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> false.
> 
> Sandaime's skin was said to be like STEEL, and blood like iron.  However, obviously his body is much more durable than that since pain's chakra rods are 3 times more durable than steel, yet naruto's rasengan destroys them with ease.


 Reference on Pain Chakra rods. I never heard or remember any statements on its durability. Also I dont understand the need to make a difference between Iron and steel considering since they have almost the same level of Hardness and durability.  Kimimaro is stated to have the strongest body and physical frame due to his clan abilities. 



> Next, kusanagi which is stated to be able to cut daimond couldn't even damage KN4 naruto who is obviously less durable than the man hyped 250 chapters later as the strongest shield with feats to back it up.



Yes  Kusanagi is sharp enough to cut/scratch diamond. but you still need a great amount of force to do so. Orochimaru used his neck to generate force not his arms in which a person can swing the blade the fastest and strongest. Not to mention Orochimaru body was breaking down. Considering we have seen the same level of chakra cloak cut through like Butter shows either 2 things happen.....A Retconed or Orochimaru just didnt have enough physical strength to peirce through.



> Plus, on top of that durability he gets a huge boost from the power of his RnY cloak.


 Raiton shroud was never stated to increase durability. It was only stated to increase his reflexes. Doton Armor is the one that increases the bodies durability. Raiton has never ever been stated to increase toughness or durability. There is no reason to assume so in this situation.




> Hebi sasuke dodged amaterasu momentarily by using his sharingan to predict when itachi would fire the technique and thus allowing him to shunshin before Itachi fired it.  Ei on the otherhand, shunshins in response to sasuke firing the technique and still unlike Hebi sasuke manages to completely avoid it and escape the sharingan completely.


 False. Sasuke both dodged and outrun Amaterasu. While Ei was the one to Dodge it momentarily. Ei wasn't chased down by Amaterasu...Sasuke was. If it was merely a issue of moving before Amaterasu was actually fired. Then both Itachi and Sasuke should have saw this and readjusted their aim. Thing is Both Curse Seal Sasuke and V2 shown that they were just physically superior in speed. CS Sasuke was already outmanuvering Itachi  with the seal activated.



> Kimimaro doesn't have the sharingan, so he doesn't predict it and doesn't even manage to dodge its initial blast.  Finally, Asuma also had a 4.5 in speed, does that mean he's anywhere near hebi sasuke's speed?  Obviously not.


 Indra was stated to have Superior battle senses due to his sharingan. Well Kimimaro is also hyped up to have superior Battle senses as well. Being able to perfectly guard against any and all linear attacks. Much like Sharingan is. The only time Sasuke's sharingan had trouble tracking movement was from Bee "unorthodox style". Lee also proves that without the body speed it doesnt matter if you can see through the move or not. This has been made clear by Lee, and Juubito blitzing sharingan users. Kimimaro is able to do naturally what the 3-tomoe sharingan can do essentially.

Also You want to know the difference between Deidara and Asuma's 4.5 base stat and Kimimaro and Sasuke's base stat. That Deidara and Asuma does not have the Curse seal augmenting their base stats and speed to make them faster. Nor does Deidara or Asuma have the hightened Battle senses of the Uchiha and Kaguya clan.




> And Sandaime raikage was able to burst out of war arc gaara's mother sand hold.  "Diamond-level durability" (which you assume since gaara's statement only implies toughest minerals in the immediate soil) means jack squat since the diamond/adamantine-cutting kusanagi fails to pierce KN4 naruto's cloak.



Manga page please. Not saying I dont agree I just dont remember that part exactly. Especially since I don't recall that Gaara's Mom shield was stated to be on par with Gaara's Shukaku empowered ultimate defense.  Because if it wasnt that means His mother sand shield was not near the durability the Shukaku shield.  Also Like I said earlier. Orochimaru body was weakend due to his fushi tensei process and he tried to stab something with his mouth and not using his arms.  You still need to generate sufficient force. And if Gaara sheild was of that durability. Its still a testament to Raikages strength which Im not doubting.  But realize that kimimaro also peirce throuh diamond like material as well.

Also just re-read it. The Sand of Shield Gaara used that your reffering to is just regular sand from the gourd. Not the Sand generated and infused with the hardest Minerals from the ground. So  Raikage was just replicating a feat that sick dying Kimimaro did off his deathbed.




> However, assuming the stipulations means kimi's strongest spear will go through sandaime raikage, I can see this being a good match since despite kimimaro having the significant strength and speed disadvantage, that stuff becomes almost irrelevant when he decides to surround Sandaime in a CS2 forest of bone and *do this.*  I'd still favor sandaime raikage to win though considering he's reacted and *dodged point blank FRS from behind* without being warned of it.  And once he learns of kimi's ability to pop out of his bone, he just exits the forest or makes a clearing.



Well after looking up more evidence I dont think Kimi needed the stipulations really since his Spear is cited at piercing something harder and more durable than Iron and steel. If you wish to keep disagreeing on the speed thing. Then i cant say much more than I already said. But i respect your opinion on who wins. I just dont respect the downplaying of Kimimaro's abilities. I know his strength and striking powers isnt onpar with the raikage's(Impressive enough considering he shattered material that was stronger than the hardest steel piercing through diamond. 

The way I see Kimimaro's peak his Hebi Sasuke peak.  Because thats what the Stats, Hype statements, and manga portrays. He is basically hebi Sasuke with a different blood line. If Taka Sasuke was able to hold his own physically against these same type of Shinobi. Then im dumbfounded on how shinobi who are superior To taka Sasuke will have a harder time dealing with shinobi who operate in the physical CQC field


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## richard lewis (Apr 30, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Raikage durability is stated to be like Iron. The Hardest substance Kimimaro perceived was Gaara Shield of Shukaku which compressed the hardest minerals together inside the earth. the hardest mineral known to man is Diamond/Adamantium(Not marvel). Kimimaro can layer his skin with bone and his bones are stated to be stronger than steel. Steel and Iron while not exact have virtually the same durability as far as strength and hardness goes.(Iron is abit more malleable i believe.)



First off Adamantium is not real lol....

Secondly the raikage tanked FRS so unless you think kimmi's spear>=FRS "in which case I want even bother continuing this debate" his spear is gunna do jack shit lol. I'd say his spear is at best on par with chidori so the mas damage it would do is give the raikage a flesh wound.



Csdabest said:


> Hebi Sasuke w/ Curse Seal of Heaven dodged Amaterasu from Itachi and was fast enough to interrupt his hand seals. Both Sasuke and Kimimaro have base speed Stats of 4.5. It was stated that Curse Seal of Earth was Equal in power. Meaning that the boost should be the same. So Kimimaro speed should be cross reference with the speed it takes to dodge amaterasu. A Feat that has only been replicated by V2 Raikage(Ei). So far Ei is portrayed as being faster than his father while his father durability is greater. How much is uncertain. But Kimimaro's peak speed with Curse seal should be V2 Raikage level. Since V2 Raikage shares the same speed feat as Hebi Sasuke w/ CS. And I already explained how Kimimaro speed should be respected.



When did sasuke dodge amaterasu? from what I can recall he got hit by it and had to use oral rebirth to survive.

lol kimmi is no where near as fast as V2 Ei... you just lost all credibility with that one bro



Csdabest said:


> As far as kimimaro's strength goes. he was able to move through Gaara sand attacks, break from Gaara sand coffin and sand funeral. Not to mention that his ultimate spear(which pierced through diamond level durability.) was stated to be his strongest bone. His Regular Bones were already stated to be Harder Than strongest steel already. His Striking power was able to shatter that level of hardness, strength, durability to little pieces.



Last I recall the raikage easily bated away gaara's sand and it was part 2 gaara who >>>>>>>> part 1 gaara imo



Csdabest said:


> True But Naruto issued out a direct challenge against Kimimaro. One of the Main Objectives of Akatsuki's army is to capture Naruto. But all we are left with is Kimimaro still being around while KCM Naruto isnt. Signfying at the very least Naruto couldn't put down Kimimaro.



KCM naruto's fight with kimmi and co. was 99% off pannel why are you even bringing it up. If you think kimmi can beat KCM naruto we must not be reading the same manga.



Csdabest said:


> How so? Naruto Databook Stat was 31.5 while Kimimaro was 30.5. Sasuke had Kimim beat in Genjutsu and Ninjutsu which contributes to Sasuke style and not Kimimaro. We know Databook stats is the shinobi base abilities. The Curse seal of earth is stated to be as strong as the curse seal of heaven. Hebi Sasuke was capable of Dodging Amaterasu in speed. So if CS boost Hebi Sasuke speed to that level then it should do the same to Kimimaro especially if their seals are just as strong and have the same power



Once again sasuke didn't dodge amaterasu, not only that but sasuke got Freaking pile drive'd by Ei the same happens to kimmimaru here only he doesn't have susanoo to save his ass.



Csdabest said:


> *Kimimaro's Seal Strength*
> 
> 
> Juugo states that Sasuke is the only one to have ever fully adapted to juugo power other than Kimimaro. Kimimaro couldnt handle it fully vs Gaara most likely due to his failing body. So if the power increase the same Kimimaro CS boosted speed should be around Sasuke CS boosted speed. This would effectively put Kimimaro speed and agility around or at the level of Ei's V2 Speed. A Speed taka Sasuke was barely able to handle and Hebi Sasuke is vastly superior.
> ...



Don't even feel like responding to the rest of this nonsense lol


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## Csdabest (Apr 30, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I don't understand how everyone is so concrete on the baseless assumption of Hebi Sasuke = Healthy Kimmi.


Actually Healthy Kimimaro>>>Hebi Sasuke minus Kirin & Chidori
Because as far as clan abilities goes Orochimaru still wanted Kaguya's clan powers over the Uchiha's powers.  Kimimaro has demonstrated similar battle senses to Sasuke. Has the same base stats. But better Taijutsu. Has a Curse Seal that has equal power(Boosting their stats in a similar fashion.) The thing that makes Kimimaro's Superior to hebi Sasuke is the level of Clan ability. Sasuke 3-tomoe Curse Seal level doesn't really have much in his arsenal to put Kimimaro down due to his base physical stats and clan ability. Sasuke's Mangeyo on the other hand can. 



> This is literally based upon the most minuscule of statements. Jugo merely said that Kimmi could handle his outbreaks just as easily as Sasuke. And this would make sense if you consider Kimmis abilities in contrast to Hebi Sasukes.



No. This was stated from Orochimaru and Kabuto and Juugo. Juugo stated that Sasuke is the only Shinobi to master the Curse seal powers to that level which Rivals his own other than kimimaro. Kimimaro's base stats matches Sasuke almost exactly.(Base stats are not influenced by outside techniques) he also has a curse seal that has equal power to Sasuke's curse Seal. All those things practically scream out as far as tier level and capabilities go. Hebi Sasuke=/< Kimimaro.



> We also have to consider how ridiculous character statements are sometimes.... Like Jirayia > Itachi + Kisame.


 Yea. Those statements are to be true until Proven otherwise. Which that statement was. Nothing has disproven Kimimar's Hype. Just fan's respect for his power has decreased. Nothing has disproven Hebi Sasuke Physical capability level. Nothing has dis proven the Curse seal of earth level. Nothing has disproven the level of Kaguya's Clan ability. Even when Kimimaro came back. he even in base replicated the same exact feat of easily dispatching Samurai in similar fashion to Sasuke. Normally when characters stick around or return. They Are made out to look less than they originally wore. Kimimaro and Itachi are the only shinobi who have returned who had previous feats before and performed BETTER than their original showing.  



> Anyway, Injury Recovering Part 1 Lee was able to heavily pressure Kimi in combat, so far so that Lee without gates was able to nearly blitz Kimmi, moving so fast Kimmi couldn't physically react. Drunken Lee was also able to nigh casually evade all of Kimmis attacks, and unless you believe drunken Lee posses more taijustu skill then a Raikage, then I see no problem with the Sandaime Raikage causally dodging. So basically unless healthy Kimmi is multitudes faster then sick Kimmi(doubt it, seeing as sick Itachi wasn't ridiculously slower then Edo Itachi) then Sandaime Kage wins this almost no difficulty.



Tsunade had stated that Rock Lee surgery went alright. And that he can continue training as usual in a few short days. Rock Lee was recovering. but Kimimaro was coming off of his deathbed. With nothing but pure will power stemming from his loyalty to Orochimaru. Kimimaro COMPLETELY Shutdown Lee and the only reason Lee made it to drunken Lee is because Kimimaro is Honorable enough to let him take his "medicine" Even then Lee was only fighting Deathbed Base Kimimaro. Also If you want to believe that Edo Itachi didn't perform better than Sick Itachi thats up to you.  Itachi went from failing to defending attacks from Hebi Sasuke. To being able to fend off both KCM Naruto and Killer Bee In a skirmish AT THE SAME TIME. 

Also Gai>/=Lee in taijutsu skill level. Madara placed Gai skill in taijutsu as THE BEST he has ever seen. The only thing that separates Gai from lee in my eyes is the minor gap in stats and level of gates. So Yes. Lee>>>The Raikages in "skill" of Taijutsu since Lee has a 5 in Taijutsu(So does Kimimaro) and has spent his whole life training under Gai and mastering his taijutsu style.(A Style that kimimaro shutdown almost completely) As far as skill goes I dont see even Gai sensei doing much to Kimimaro w/o gates. Especially considering this was stated in reference to Kimimaro's abilities.

*Kimimaro's Strength Vs Konoha*


Thats including everyone that they know who is active in Konoha. Danzo, Tsunade, Kakashi(w/o kamui) Might Gai, Asuma. They also have an extensive knowledge of the shinobi inside konoha and what they are capable of. The war arc has shown us a great deal of many things. One being that outside of Team 7 no ones abilities really increased vastly over the time skip. Kakashi outside of Kamui still appears to be Edo Zabuza level. Alot of shinobi gained a few techniques to support them and enhance their abilities abit. But not many shinobi jumped from Genin level to Kage level during the skip. 





TensaXZangetsu said:


> Raikage blitzes and rapes in an unimaginable stomp
> 
> 
> No really what made you think this was a fair match even with your unfair stipulation



Unfair how. Kimimaro spear had been cited as peircing through diamond. Raikages durability has been stated to be that of Iron and steel. Daimond is harder to cut and peirce through than steel and iron. I just ended the BS argument that Kimimaro can't peirce through Raikage without it turning into a debate.


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## Csdabest (Apr 30, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> First off Adamantium is not real lol....



Adamant is normally reffered to either Diamond or a very very hard metal. The word adamantium is indeed very very real. I even pointed out the difference as well. no one is talking about Marvel adamantium.



> Secondly the raikage tanked FRS so unless you think kimmi's spear>=FRS "in which case I want even bother continuing this debate" his spear is gunna do jack shit lol. I'd say his spear is at best on par with chidori so the mas damage it would do is give the raikage a flesh wound.


Your the one comparing two different damage types. FRS leaves the body intact mostly. The damage is a bunch of microscopic wind blades. If a single wind blade is completely ineffective against the durability. Then 1mil. multiplied by zero effectiveness. Is still zero. FRS is effective against people with normal bodies. The Raikages are stated to have Iron/Steel like bodies. Iron and Steel are substances from the earth. Earth has a natural advantage over wind element 

I can break this down multiple ways. If FRS failed to break through Iron/Steel like substance. Then that is FRS's problem to deal with along with its damage type. But if Kimimaro can peirce through diamond which is greater than Iron/Steel. that that means Kimimaro spear can cut through raikage better than FRS. There are many factors that play a role here. Such as damage type, hardness, strenght, durability of the technique. You tried to clown me but really just proved that you have no understanding on what is being discussed. Then LOL that techniqued causes bigger explosions. Go back to DBZ or learn from square one on how The Naruto verse works.




> When did sasuke dodge amaterasu? from what I can recall he got hit by it and had to use oral rebirth to survive.


 Sasuke initially dodged it against Itachi. Itachi had to chase sasuke down with the flames around the Uchiha hideout. Sasuke not only dodged it but outran it from a shinobi with a speed/agility/reaction base tier of 5.



> lol kimmi is no where near as fast as V2 Ei... you just lost all credibility with that one bro



I already proved my point and gave amble enough evidence. What credibility does Your statement have. I have taken the time to prove my point while you havent. If Hebi Sasuke w/ CS dodged Amaterasu a feat that was only replicated by V2 Ei. And Healthy Kimimaro has the same speed stat as Base Hebi Sasuke and has CS with equal power to his own. Then that means Kimimaro with CS is in the same league in speed as Hebi Sasuke who dodged Amaterasu. Especially if Kimimaro is both healthy and has Orochimaru's power flowing through him as well. It really isnt a hard concept to accept. Both Hebi Sasuke and Kimimaro has 4.5 in speed tier. Both Hebi Sasuke and Kimimaro had curse seals to boost their physical abilities

.





> Last I recall the raikage easily bated away gaara's sand and it was part 2 gaara who >>>>>>>> part 1 gaara imo



Actually false. Part 1 Gaara is enhanced by Shukaku while Part 2 only has his own power to control the sand. Unless you really think Gaara is stronger than himself with a Bijuu?  The Raikage has been stoped by Gaara sand. While Kimimaro has muscled through Gaara's sand when he was enhanced by Shukaku. There is also a difference than the Sand Kimimaro peirced through and the Sand Gaara normally uses. Gaara uses the sand from his gourd and can create more sand.

The Specific technique of Shukaku Ult Shield defense. That not only uses his sand and sand from the earth. But it is also made up of the hardest minerals in the land. WHICH IS diamond.




> KCM naruto's fight with kimmi and co. was 99% off pannel why are you even bringing it up. If you think kimmi can beat KCM naruto we must not be reading the same manga.


Direct challenge and its a refference. KCM Naruto was able to take down Sandaime Raikage. Yet KCM Naruto issued a direct challenge to Kimimaro and got off-paneled. Its BASIC MANGA LAW that off-panel loses are worst than on-panel Loses. But im not even taking it to that level. Im just saying that the fact Kimimaro off-paneled KCM Naruto who is as fast or not faster than V2 Raikage( I disagree and just say that he is on their speed tier. But his fans say otherwise) means that Kimimaro's strength and capabilities hold strong even in todays current state of the manga.





> Once again sasuke didn't dodge amaterasu, not only that but sasuke got Freaking pile drive'd by Ei the same happens to kimmimaru here only he doesn't have susanoo to save his ass.


Healthy Kimimaro>Hebi Sasuke>>>>>>>>>>>Taka Sasuke as far as physical capabilities go.  

Itachi aimed for sasuke with amaterasu. Itachi failed to hit Sasuke with Amaterasu due to Sasuke moving. That by its very definition is DODGING. 



[/quote]Don't even feel like responding to the rest of this nonsense lol[/QUOTE]

Next time bring manga panels before you try to discredit someone opinion



The Phoenix King said:


> Kimimaro is great at defending against blunt force attacks I'll give you that. But Raikage's piercing attacks like Nukite are undeniable stronger than anything Kimimaro can defend against.
> 
> 
> Also responses in Red.



Yes I already noted that. While i think Kimimaro can tank Killer Bee Vibro blades I dont think Kimimaro could tank Nukite or Chidori or any other dense compacted chakra attacks that share a likeness to it. I never questioned that. But people seem to think Kimimaro can't pierce the Raikages though Kimimaro has already pierced through tougher durability and hardness. Which is why in the OP I simply got it out of the way that Both users strongest spears could peirce eachother easily.

The real issue here is where does kimimaro's speed, strength, and durability along with his skills as shinobi fall in rank in comparison to part 2 scaling. The best way to do that is to View Kimimaro's peak abilities in contrast with Hebi Sasuke. Because as Orochimaru's greatest and strongest pawn he was Uchiha Sasuke's benchmark. A benchmark that was only matched and surpassed by Hebi Sasuke. This is supported by the databook which matches their stats to be identical. Their shinobi training both under Orochimaru, manga statements, and portrayal and feats in the manga. 

Orochimaru was unaware if Sasuke clan abilities would prove stronger than kimimaro. At the end of Hebi Sasuke's reign he appeared to be Kimimaro's equal up to the 3-tomoe sharingan level(No one is gonna question Hebi Sasuke power level w/ Mangekyo) . Though Hebi Sasuke had more genius and was abit more skilled that Kimimaro. Kimi's insane Clan ability puts him over Sasuke in a fight.


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## ueharakk (Apr 30, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Reference on Pain Chakra rods. I never heard or remember any statements on its durability. Also I dont understand the need to make a difference between Iron and steel considering since they have almost the same level of Hardness and durability.  *Kimimaro is stated to have the strongest body and physical frame due to his clan abilities. *


*3 swords were destroyed in order to shave off a little of one of pain's chakra receivers.*

Isn't steel a lot more durable than iron?  Exact statement of the bolded?  Also, 'strongest' is just hyperbole especially when he needs CS1 to not get juiced by SRA gaara's sand coffin.




Csdabest said:


> Yes  Kusanagi is sharp enough to cut/scratch diamond. but you still need a great amount of force to do so. Orochimaru used his neck to generate force not his arms in which a person can swing the blade the fastest and strongest. Not to mention Orochimaru body was breaking down. *Considering we have seen the same level of chakra cloak cut through like Butter shows either 2 things happen.....A Retconed or Orochimaru just didnt have enough physical strength to peirce through.*


Um, no.  KN4 Naruto took by far the most powerful and most penetrating sword strike Orochimaru ever produced in the entire manga.  He rode the tip of the kusanagi blad a kilometer through forest and right into a cliff and it didn't even hurt him.  

I have absolutely no idea why you claim the bolded.  Not only do you already know and simply feign ignorance about the fact that only the V2 extended limbs were cut through while the actual V2 bodies weren't by a direct hit from raikiri, but if something cuts through the cloak, then it just means that cutting attack would be able to cut through diamond as well.  

So no, it's not that orochimaru didn't have enough physical strength or that it's a retcon, it's that the KN4 defense is stronger than what the databook claims is diamond.



Csdabest said:


> Raiton shroud was never stated to increase durability. It was only stated to increase his reflexes. Doton Armor is the one that increases the bodies durability. Raiton has never ever been stated to increase toughness or durability. There is no reason to assume so in this situation.


*The entire reason Sasuke's chidori didn't go through Ei is because he was covered by the RnY shroud.*
So it obviously increases one's durability tremendously if Sasuke's chidori loses so much power that it barely hurts ei when it reaches his skin.



Csdabest said:


> False. Sasuke both dodged and outrun Amaterasu. While Ei was the one to Dodge it momentarily. Ei wasn't chased down by Amaterasu...Sasuke was. If it was merely a issue of moving before Amaterasu was actually fired. Then both Itachi and Sasuke should have saw this and readjusted their aim. Thing is Both Curse Seal Sasuke and V2 shown that they were just physically superior in speed. CS Sasuke was already outmanuvering Itachi  with the seal activated.


Um, you're completely wrong and the scans show that.  We blatantly see Sasuke shunshined first, itachi fired a stream of amaterasu as he started to refocus on sasuke's wing, and this is an itachi that didn't want to kill Sasuke.  Ei on the otherhand shunshinned after amaterasu is fired, and sasuke isn't able to hit him like itachi did to sasuke because he couldn't even track Ei's movements.



Csdabest said:


> Indra was stated to have Superior battle senses due to his sharingan. Well Kimimaro is also hyped up to have superior Battle senses as well. Being able to perfectly guard against any and all linear attacks. Much like Sharingan is. The only time Sasuke's sharingan had trouble tracking movement was from Bee "unorthodox style". Lee also proves that without the body speed it doesnt matter if you can see through the move or not. This has been made clear by Lee, and Juubito blitzing sharingan users. Kimimaro is able to do naturally what the 3-tomoe sharingan can do essentially.


Um, hell no.  Being stated to have a superior battle sense =/= have sharingan precog.  Kimimaro doesn't have anything like that in his arsenal and was never stated, implied or shown to have something resembling that .  

Being able to guard against weightless lee =/= being able to perfectly guard against any and all linear attacks.  Goodness gracious debate honestly and stop wasting my time.

Anyone would have a harder time defending against an unorthodox fighting style versus one that's linear, regardless if they have precog or not.



Csdabest said:


> Also You want to know the difference between Deidara and Asuma's 4.5 base stat and Kimimaro and Sasuke's base stat. That Deidara and Asuma does not have the Curse seal augmenting their base stats and speed to make them faster. Nor does Deidara or Asuma have the hightened Battle senses of the Uchiha and Kaguya clan.


I wanna see the exact quote of this so called 'heightened battle sense' and what it actually means in the context of the manga.  Also, i'm not comparing them to sasuke and kimi in their cursed forms, make it base sasuke and kimi and does a 4.5 allow deidara and asuma to have their speed? 





Csdabest said:


> Manga page please. Not saying I dont agree I just dont remember that part exactly. Especially since I don't recall that Gaara's Mom shield was stated to be on par with Gaara's Shukaku empowered ultimate defense.  Because if it wasnt that means His mother sand shield was not near the durability the Shukaku shield.  Also Like I said earlier. Orochimaru body was weakend due to his fushi tensei process and he tried to stab something with his mouth and not using his arms.  You still need to generate sufficient force. And if Gaara sheild was of that durability. Its still a testament to Raikages strength which Im not doubting.  *But realize that kimimaro also peirce throuh diamond like material as well.*


*Sandaime bursts through gaara's mother defense with pure physical strength.*
I'm not arguing his mother defense > shukaku's, im comparing what sandaime raikage muscled out of compared to what kimimaro muscled out of.

Again, unless orochimaru's arms are so powerful that they send KN4 naruto through a kilometer of forest and into a cliff.

The bolded is false, 'strongest minerals in the surrounding ground' =/= diamond-like material.  Gaara's strongest shield didn't even look like diamond, it still looked mostly sand-based.



Csdabest said:


> Also just re-read it. The Sand of Shield Gaara used that your reffering to is just regular sand from the gourd. Not the Sand generated and infused with the hardest Minerals from the ground. So  Raikage was just replicating a feat that sick dying Kimimaro did off his deathbed.


Debate honestly and don't waste my time.

Is war arc gaara's mother defense = Sasuke retreival arc Gaara's sand coffin?  Obviously not, war arc mother defense is magnitudes more powerful since it's a much more powerful gaara on top of a much more powerful defense than a standard sand coffin.





Csdabest said:


> Well after looking up more evidence I dont think Kimi needed the stipulations really since his Spear is cited at piercing something harder and more durable than Iron and steel. If you wish to keep disagreeing on the speed thing. Then i cant say much more than I already said. But i respect your opinion on who wins. I just dont respect the downplaying of Kimimaro's abilities. I know his strength and striking powers isnt onpar with the raikage's(Impressive enough considering he shattered material that was stronger than the hardest steel piercing through diamond.


I am absolutely not downplaying kimimaro's abilities.  Being able to pierce iron and steel means nothing, *fodder gennins during the chuunin exams* were throwing attacks that could pierce 5mm of steel, and *normal rasengans can start to shred pains chakra rods without even making contact* yet a direct shot of FRS which cuts right through and vaporizes pains chakra rods leaves only minor surface cuts on sandaime raikage's body.

You however are blatant in your ignorance towards those facts which is the only way your stance can even make sense.  



Csdabest said:


> The way I see Kimimaro's peak his Hebi Sasuke peak.  Because thats what the Stats, Hype statements, and manga portrays. He is basically hebi Sasuke with a different blood line. If Taka Sasuke was able to hold his own physically against these same type of Shinobi. Then im dumbfounded on how shinobi who are superior To taka Sasuke will have a harder time dealing with shinobi who operate in the physical CQC field


Sure, I can see a case for prime Kimimaro = Hebi Sasuke.  Sandaime raikage is far superior physically than Taka sasuke.  Sasuke landing a counterblitz on V1 Ei was due to his sharingan precog, which allows him to do that to opponents who are far faster than him just like he did to KN0 Naruto at VoTe.  *That's the whole reason the manga gives a closeup of sasuke's eye followed by him ducking Ei's elbow in slow motion.*   Without the sharingan?  Sasuke gets beheaded, and so would kimi in that same situation assuming kimi has similar speed to sasuke. 

And you already know that's true, yet you just choose to ignore it every time i bring it up in order to push your agenda.  Don't waste my time.  When you have to bolster one shinobi to their utmost limits, while being forced to lowball a shinobi below their lower limits by being ignorant, then it just shows how weak your stance is.


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 30, 2014)

Csdabest, I'd love for you to explain to me just how exactly Kimimaro stands a chance in this match-up.

Because the Third Raikage slices and dices the guy into tiny pieces while laughing off the latter's attacks. With zero effort.


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## Ashi (Apr 30, 2014)

Where exactly is this wank coming from??

Kimmimaro stalemated with Gaara and that's his best feats anymore is speculation


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## trance (Apr 30, 2014)

Damn, what an ungodly stomp. 

Raikagenaut is _vastly_ superior in every category; speed, strength, durability, stamina, etc. His one-finger nukite would tear through Kimimaro like a hot knife through butter. Even in portrayal, he utterly shits on Kimimaro. In a healthy state, Kimimaro can stomp the Sound Four, would've beaten Part I Gaara (but not stomp him), can suppress Jugo's killing urges and can stomp some samurai. Raikagenaut stalemated a bijuu, is claimed as the strongest Raikage and stalemated an army of 10,000 for three days by himself.


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## Csdabest (Apr 30, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> *3 swords were destroyed in order to shave off a little of one of pain's chakra receivers.*
> 
> Isn't steel a lot more durable than iron?  Exact statement of the bolded?  Also, 'strongest' is just hyperbole especially when he needs CS1 to not get juiced by SRA gaara's sand coffin



Im not sure if Steel is more durable than Iron. Both seem to be around the same level of hardness, durability, and strength. I think while STeel is sharper that Iron is more malleable. Then there is the whole thing of certain types of steel being made with iron and vice versa. Which is why i chose to just say around the same level because it honestly gave me a headache looking up the differences. Also Medical staff uses blades to saw stuff not slice through things like a ninja. You still need great enough force. I acknowledge that those black rods are indeed tough but i have to call kishi an idiot for having medical staff use blades like that to saw and carve a hard substance like that.







> Um, no.  KN4 Naruto took by far the most powerful and most penetrating sword strike Orochimaru ever produced in the entire manga.  He rode the tip of the kusanagi blad a kilometer through forest and right into a cliff and it didn't even hurt him.


 Up to you. These feats are to be held true until kishi retcons or come up with a reason. Considering bijuu cloaks have been cut through by much less shows its either a Retcon or Kishi portrayal of what happened was piss poor.  Kishi has gone from Bijuu chakra being cut by mere blades or chakra can only be cut by chakra and have gone back and forth with it. . But I rather just say that since this same level of cloak has been cut through and peirced by much less like butter. That orochimaru in his weakend state was not able to generate enough force and velocity. 

In simple terms. Depending at the force you swing your knife at a piece of bread you can either saw through it, cut through it cleanly or push it back and send it flying with out any cut or piercings through it. Its makes a huge difference.



> I have absolutely no idea why you claim the bolded.  Not only do you already know and simply feign ignorance about the fact that only the V2 extended limbs were cut through while the actual V2 bodies weren't by a direct hit from raikiri, but if something cuts through the cloak, then it just means that cutting attack would be able to cut through diamond as well.



Alright then. Explain to me the difference between the durability generated by the Chakra cloaking the arms and the durability generated by the Chakra cloaking the body. There no differences in appearance or statement. So there is no reason to believe the Chakra durability is different from the arms than on the body because it doesnt even appear to be thicker chakra either. Or unless I am missing something you dont understand.



> So no, it's not that orochimaru didn't have enough physical strength or that it's a retcon, it's that the KN4 defense is stronger than what the databook claims is diamond.


 Enma staff is recorded to being as strong as Diamond. Yet Orochimaru sword only scratched it. Also like I said above. Speed, Strength and velocity vs the hardness, durability, and strength of a target are many factors that blade a role in this type of thing. Weather in fiction or nonfiction factors play a role the difference can be between a knife sawing through a piece of bread, cutting clean through, or that knife sending the bread flying. If you want me to elaborate on this. I rather do it in its own post instead of piling it in with all my other responses. Because there are ALOT of factors that play a role in the difficulty it takes to cut and peirce an object.




> *The entire reason Sasuke's chidori didn't go through Ei is because he was covered by the RnY shroud.*
> So it obviously increases one's durability tremendously if Sasuke's chidori loses so much power that it barely hurts ei when it reaches his skin.



Sasuke still peirced through. Sasuke didnt generate enough speed, strength, and velocity to peirce through with that technique. The statement was very ambiguous. Raikage states that with raiton armor it was suprised that sasuke could touch Raikage. Not peirce through. Its a testament to Raikage increase reaction speed with Raiton shroud.



> Um, you're completely wrong and the scans show that.  We blatantly see Sasuke shunshined first, itachi fired a stream of amaterasu as he started to refocus on sasuke's wing, and this is an itachi that didn't want to kill Sasuke.  Ei on the otherhand shunshinned after amaterasu is fired, and sasuke isn't able to hit him like itachi did to sasuke because he couldn't even track Ei's movements.


 Really I dont have to since its an interpretation on what happened and not if it happened or not. Raikage left an afterimage. core of leaving an after image is so that it takes the hit and not you. Raikage Shunshined away before Amaterasu appeared and hit his body.

He did the same thing Sasuke did. Difference being Sasuke didnt chase him down. Also Sasuke did Track ei movements. IF Sasuke wasnt then he wouldn't be able to put the shield of flames up in time. Nor would he had looked into the very direction that Raikage shunshined off to. Lee pointed out there is a huge difference between being able to follow with your eyes and your body. Sasuke could follow with his eyes but not his body.  

What your basically saying is that Raikage and Sasuke did the same thing in different words. But not admitting they are the same thing. And truthfully I dont know how to argue such a thing.




> Um, hell no.  Being stated to have a superior battle sense =/= have sharingan precog.  Kimimaro doesn't have anything like that in his arsenal and was never stated, implied or shown to have something resembling that .



You forget that Curse seal gave Sasuke the same battle senses of the 3-tomoe Sharingan. Stating his vision was exactly the same. If Kimimaro curse seal has the same power it bestows then that means Kimimaro has  Sharingan-like battle senses especially with Curse seal.



> Being able to guard against weightless lee =/= being able to perfectly guard against any and all linear attacks.  Goodness gracious debate honestly and stop wasting my time.


I am being honest. Because the reason why Kimimaro said why he was soo good at evading Lee was because his moves were soo linear.Combining that with the sharingan-like battle senses provided by the Curse Seal practically spells being able to perfectly guard against linear attacks. There is only one thing I am learning from these battle doms. SPELL EVERY MINUTE DETAIL OUT.(That not targeted to you. But alot of people made me realize this)





> I wanna see the exact quote of this so called 'heightened battle sense' and what it actually means in the context of the manga.  Also, i'm not comparing them to sasuke and kimi in their cursed forms, make it base sasuke and kimi and does a 4.5 allow deidara and asuma to have their speed?


I shown you that page in the Kimimaro + Bee vs Blind Sage Madara thread. Its when Orochimaru and Kabuto was speaking about Kimimaro going to retrieve Sasuke.  It was in reference to Kaguya Clan while speaking about the potency of Uchiha Sasuke's potential for a vessle. I believe its between Chapter 200-212. If i find it later I'll PM it to you if your really that interested.






> *Sandaime bursts through gaara's mother defense with pure physical strength.*
> I'm not arguing his mother defense > shukaku's, im comparing what sandaime raikage muscled out of compared to what kimimaro muscled out of.



Ahh I see. While im not really debating the Raikage's strength against Kimimaro's. The fact that Sandiame physical strength alone is comparable to Ei's who was able to TKO Hachibi with a punch is enough for me.



> Again, unless orochimaru's arms are so powerful that they send KN4 naruto through a kilometer of forest and into a cliff.


Well considering that your able to generate more force with your arms and legs than your neck is clear cut on the situation. Like I said retcon or due to orochimaru failing body and kishi's suckage at manga portrayals.



> The bolded is false, 'strongest minerals in the surrounding ground' =/= diamond-like material.  Gaara's strongest shield didn't even look like diamond, it still looked mostly sand-based.



There are many colors of diamonds and it can come in some different type of form. Considering we now know Shukaku's power is Jinton and it envolves particle break down and particle compression(Oonoki and Magentism)  combined with Gaara statements of grinding of and compression. It clear to see why Shukaku sand shield didnt look like your typical diamond.





> Debate honestly and don't waste my time.
> 
> Is war arc gaara's mother defense = Sasuke retreival arc Gaara's sand coffin?  Obviously not, war arc mother defense is magnitudes more powerful since it's a much more powerful gaara on top of a much more powerful defense than a standard sand coffin.


Proof. Explain to me how Gaara is stronger than himself with out a Bijuu.  gaara created a bigger sand shield thanks to more chakra. That no way means his defense should of be stronger than the one kimibroke through. If anything is should mean that Gaara should be able to create an even Bigger Shukaku defense.


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## Csdabest (Apr 30, 2014)

> I am absolutely not downplaying kimimaro's abilities.  Being able to pierce iron and steel means nothing, *fodder gennins during the chuunin exams* were throwing attacks that could pierce 5mm of steel, and *normal rasengans can start to shred pains chakra rods without even making contact* yet a direct shot of FRS which cuts right through and vaporizes pains chakra rods leaves only minor surface cuts on sandaime raikage's body.



Iron and steel are attributes of Earth. Earth is Strong against wind. I broke this down against the other guy. If you want to know my optinion I believe it was against that Lewis guy.  How is that a normal rasengan when it powered by KCM Naruto. Also Those black chakra rods are highly malleable meaning that its durability most likely can change with user. But I see your point. But like I told the last guy. FRS is made up of millions of tiny wind blades. If one wind blade is ineffective. Then multiply it by a million a million times over. Its still equals zero effectiveness





> You however are blatant in your ignorance towards those facts which is the only way your stance can even make sense.



How so? We both seem to think Iron and steel are in the same tier of Durability, strength, and hardness as one another. Which means Kimimaro and the Raikages virtually have the same level of durability. Your the one trying to draw lines and a difference in an area where the is no real difference.




> Sure, I can see a case for prime Kimimaro = Hebi Sasuke.  Sandaime raikage is far superior physically than Taka sasuke.  Sasuke landing a counterblitz on V1 Ei was due to his sharingan precog, which allows him to do that to opponents who are far faster than him just like he did to KN0 Naruto at VoTe.  *That's the whole reason the manga gives a closeup of sasuke's eye followed by him ducking Ei's elbow in slow motion.*   Without the sharingan?  Sasuke gets beheaded, and so would kimi in that same situation assuming kimi has similar speed to sasuke.



And Lee stated that it doesn't matter how good your eyes are if your body cant keep up it doesnt matter. This manga has shown their being a problem with the eyes not being able to keep up with the body movements (Sharinganless Chidori 101).  So Sasuke against V1 had both superior tracking and body speed to V1 Raikage. Either on par, slightly, im not gonna draw straws.  And Curse Seal also gives the user the same Battle senses as 3-tomoe sharingan. As stated by Sasuke at VOTE when he made the comparison between the two.  If Sasuke didn't have Sharingan to aid him. Yeah he would have gotten his head knocked off probably. But Sasuke would have still landed his blow on raikage. Ei winning out in this situation would have been a testament of superior strength and durability not speed at V1.



> And you already know that's true, yet you just choose to ignore it every time i bring it up in order to push your agenda.  Don't waste my time.  When you have to bolster one shinobi to their utmost limits, while being forced to lowball a shinobi below their lower limits by being ignorant, then it just shows how weak your stance is.



Actually your just proving your not taking the manga as whole rather than bits and pieces. (Atleast for some parts) While downplaying certain parts for your benefit.(Not all but certain. Sasuke dodging amaterasu, Curse seal and kaguya battle senses to name a few). Also explain to me how I am waisting your time when your the one who came into this thread without invitation( didnt directly invite you).. Any waist ed time is your own fault and your own issue. There are several post I could have waisted my time on in this thread but didnt. The power is yours my friend.


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## Csdabest (Apr 30, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Csdabest, I'd love for you to explain to me just how exactly Kimimaro stands a chance in this match-up.
> 
> Because the Third Raikage slices and dices the guy into tiny pieces while laughing off the latter's attacks. With zero effort.





Stαrkiller said:


> Damn, what an ungodly stomp.
> 
> Raikagenaut is _vastly_ superior in every category; speed, strength, durability, stamina, etc. His one-finger nukite would tear through Kimimaro like a hot knife through butter. Even in portrayal, he utterly shits on Kimimaro. In a healthy state, Kimimaro can stomp the Sound Four, would've beaten Part I Gaara (but not stomp him), can suppress Jugo's killing urges and can stomp some samurai. Raikagenaut stalemated a bijuu, is claimed as the strongest Raikage and stalemated an army of 10,000 for three days by himself.



*Speed:* I already shown how Kimimaro Capabilities resemble Hebi Sasuke abilities. Hebi Sasuke has shown competitive feats to match Ei's V2 speed.(Dodging amaterasu) Kimimaro has the same base speed stat (4.5) and the same stat boost(Curse seal) to bring him on par with Hebi Sasuke's Curse Seal speed level which dodged Amaterasu, interrupted Itachi handseals(almost Impossible to see even with Sharingan)

Strength & Damage output: Kimimaro peirced through Gaara's shukaku ult defense which is comprised of the hardest mineral inside the earth(Diamond) while also exhibiting the striking power to shatter Kimimaro's hardest bone. Which is harder than his normal bones which are stated to be stronger than the hardest steel. Though I do agree the Raikages have him outclassed here.

Durability: While off his deathbed he was able to survive being crushed in the sand coffin and by the sand burial technique being encased in over 200 meters of sand and earth by its pressure. Though Iron and steel have the same range of durability, strength and hardness one is sharper while the other is a bit more malleable. I agree that Durability wise they are in the same league.(Though i think his durability is better considering he can generate bones anywhere on or in his body to protect himself.

Stamina: Raikage easily as the only refferences we have for Kimimaro is Edo tensei and deathbed Kimimaro.

Orochimaru and kabuto after ALL there research came to the conclusion that there was not a single shinobi that could defeat Kimimaro after Sarutobi had died. Going by Konoha's active list would include, Danzo, Yamato, Konoha 12, Clans heads, Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai Sensei. That list is impressive even by todays current Manga standards. Kimimaro has the Speed, Durability, strength, and battle skill/senses handle this match. Anybody that says Kimimaro gets stomped.(I even acknowledge that Kimimaro might lose) but to get stomped and say that he gets Blitzed obviously doesn't know how strong kimimaro is.


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## trance (Apr 30, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> *Speed:* I already shown how Kimimaro Capabilities resemble Hebi Sasuke abilities. Hebi Sasuke has shown competitive feats to match Ei's V2 speed.(Dodging amaterasu)



Except Sauce has been noted to be much more skilled with Amaterasu than his brother. Also, Ei at maximum speed is said to be comparable (but obviously still slower) than Minato, who we all know is much faster than Itachi or Hebi Sauce.



> Kimimaro has the same base speed stat (4.5)



Because databook stats (and databooks in general) are totally consistent 100% of the time, amirite? 



> Strength & Damage output:* Kimimaro peirced through Gaara's shukaku ult defense which is comprised of the hardest mineral inside the earth(Diamond) while also exhibiting the striking power to shatter Kimimaro's hardest bone. Which is harder than his normal bones which are stated to be stronger than the hardest steel.* Though I do agree the Raikages have him outclassed here.



Do you know what "hyperboles" and "character statements" are? 



> Durability: While off his deathbed he was able to survive being crushed in the sand coffin and by the sand burial technique being encased in over 200 meters of sand and earth by its pressure. Though Iron and steel have the same range of durability, strength and hardness one is sharper while the other is a bit more malleable. I agree that Durability wise they are in the same league.(Though i think his durability is better considering he can generate bones anywhere on or in his body to protect himself.



FRS can slice through mountains and the Juubi's tails with ease. Raikagenaut almost completely no sold it. His durability is further reinforced by his Raiton no Yoroi. As a reference, Ei, who is less durable than his father, had a Raiton-enhanced sword aimed straight for his head by Sauce yet it completely bounced off. He also tanked Chidori with minor injuries. 



> Stamina: Raikage easily as the only refferences we have for Kimimaro is Edo tensei and deathbed Kimimaro.



So, peak Kimimaro has chakra levels equivalent to Gyuki and can stalemate 10,000 shinobi for three days? 



> Orochimaru and kabuto after ALL there research came to the conclusion that there was not a single shinobi that could defeat Kimimaro after Sarutobi had died. Going by Konoha's active list would include, Danzo, Yamato, Konoha 12, Clans heads, Tsunade, Kakashi and Gai Sensei. That list is impressive even by todays current Manga standards. Kimimaro has the Speed, Durability, strength, and battle skill/senses handle this match. Anybody that says Kimimaro gets stomped.(I even acknowledge that Kimimaro might lose) but to get stomped and say that he gets Blitzed obviously doesn't know how strong kimimaro is.



Raikagenaut died years before the series began. Also, remember the word "retcon".


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## ueharakk (Apr 30, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Im not sure if Steel is more durable than Iron. Both seem to be around the same level of hardness, durability, and strength. I think while STeel is sharper that Iron is more malleable. Then there is the whole thing of certain types of steel being made with iron and vice versa. Which is why i chose to just say around the same level because it honestly gave me a headache looking up the differences. Also Medical staff uses blades to saw stuff not slice through things like a ninja. You still need great enough force. I acknowledge that those black rods are indeed tough but i have to call kishi an idiot for having medical staff use blades like that to saw and carve a hard substance like that.


do you think iron = steel when sandaime's blood is stated to be like iron while his flesh is stated to be like steel?

Wait, so are you agreeing or disagreeing that the black rods are 3x more durable than steel?




Csdabest said:


> Up to you. These feats are to be held true until kishi retcons or come up with a reason. *Considering bijuu cloaks have been cut through by much less shows its either a Retcon or Kishi portrayal of what happened was piss poor. * Kishi has gone from Bijuu chakra being cut by mere blades or chakra can only be cut by chakra and have gone back and forth with it. . But I rather just say that since this same level of cloak has been cut through and peirced by much less like butter. That orochimaru in his weakend state was not able to generate enough force and velocity.


See, how in the world do you claim the bolded is true?  Why do you conclude that the bijuu cloaks have been cut through by "much less"?  



Csdabest said:


> In simple terms. Depending at the force you swing your knife at a piece of bread you can either saw through it, cut through it cleanly or push it back and send it flying with out any cut or piercings through it. Its makes a huge difference.


yeah but again, orochimaru's hit on KN4 was absolutely by far the most powerful sword attack he's done in the entire manga.  Enma says that the sword can damage him while he's in that form, KN4 has to be more durable than enma.




Csdabest said:


> Alright then. Explain to me the difference between the durability generated by the Chakra cloaking the arms and the durability generated by the Chakra cloaking the body. There no differences in appearance or statement. So there is no reason to believe the Chakra durability is different from the arms than on the body because it doesnt even appear to be thicker chakra either. Or unless I am missing something you dont understand.


Sure there is, the very fact that the body cloaks take a direct shot from raikiri while the arms get easily cut by the chains is all the reason one needs to conclude that the body cloaks are more concentrated and durable than the arms.  The cloaks don't have to visually show themselves to be different when feats compellingly suggests otherwise.  

In order for the cloaks to be all around equal, you'd have to assert that Raikiri chain's penetrating ability >>>>>>>>>> Raikiri despite Raikiri being a much more focused attack.  



Csdabest said:


> Enma staff is recorded to being as strong as Diamond. Yet Orochimaru sword only scratched it. Also like I said above. Speed, Strength and velocity vs the hardness, durability, and strength of a target are many factors that blade a role in this type of thing. Weather in fiction or nonfiction factors play a role the difference can be between a knife sawing through a piece of bread, cutting clean through, or that knife sending the bread flying. If you want me to elaborate on this. I rather do it in its own post instead of piling it in with all my other responses. Because there are ALOT of factors that play a role in the difficulty it takes to cut and peirce an object.


Yet, none of the sword attacks orochimaru ever did against Enma came anywhere near the power of the one he hit KN4 with.  That one attack was the absolute upper limit of orochimaru's Kusanagi penetrating ability, it was maximum power on the tip of the blade and it couldn't even get through the cloak.





Csdabest said:


> Sasuke still peirced through. Sasuke didnt generate enough speed, strength, and velocity to peirce through with that technique. The statement was very ambiguous. Raikage states that with raiton armor it was suprised that sasuke could touch Raikage. Not peirce through. Its a testament to Raikage increase reaction speed with Raiton shroud.


Don't waste my time.  Sure he got through the cloak, but it cost his attack the majority of its power which is why it barely did any damage.  Had Ei not had his RnY up, he'd get a hole in his chest.  Thus RnY increases the user's durability.  

Ei makes the statement about Sasuke's chidori's power and penetration, and then says that he's impressed that it allowed Sasuke to touch him through the RnY cloak.  It's blatantly obvious he's reffering to the cloak's defensive properties.  Then there's the fact that Ei's RnY cloak itself deflected Sasuke's raiton sword.  And the fact that while uncloaked Sandaime raikage takes decent damage from a wind technique far weaker than FRS.



Csdabest said:


> Really I dont have to since its an interpretation on what happened and not if it happened or not. Raikage left an afterimage. core of leaving an after image is so that it takes the hit and not you. Raikage Shunshined away before Amaterasu appeared and hit his body.


Nope, it's not up for interpretation since we explicitly see Ei before the afterimage is created, standing there and the flame appear, and then we see the afterimage + ei + a bigger flame meaning time has passed and thus the first scan must be the original ei.  In addition to that, how would Ei have known when to move without seeing amatersu appear first?  He doesn't have sensing abilities or predictive abilities like the sharingan.  It's pure reaction.



Csdabest said:


> He did the same thing Sasuke did. Difference being Sasuke didnt chase him down. Also Sasuke did Track ei movements. IF Sasuke wasnt then he wouldn't be able to put the shield of flames up in time. Nor would he had looked into the very direction that Raikage shunshined off to. Lee pointed out there is a huge difference between being able to follow with your eyes and your body. Sasuke could follow with his eyes but not his body.


No he didn't.  Sasuke shunshined before Ei did, and Sasuke wasn't able to chase him down.  Seeing which direction ei shunshinned in =/= track Ei's movements.  The entire reason Sasuke put up the enton shield was because he couldn't track Ei's movements.

Don't waste my time.



Csdabest said:


> What your basically saying is that Raikage and Sasuke did the same thing in different words. But not admitting they are the same thing. And truthfully I dont know how to argue such a thing.


Um no, that's absolutely not what i'm doing.  Ei shunshined after amaterasu was fired, Sasuke shunshined before.  Ei was so fast he couldn't be tracked by the sharingan and thus amaterasu, Sasuke wasn't.  





Csdabest said:


> You forget that Curse seal gave Sasuke the same battle senses of the 3-tomoe Sharingan. Stating his vision was exactly the same. If Kimimaro curse seal has the same power it bestows then that means Kimimaro has  Sharingan-like battle senses especially with Curse seal.


The heck?  When did it say the cursed seal gave sasuke the same battle senses of the 3-tomoe sharingan?  



Csdabest said:


> I am being honest. Because the reason why Kimimaro said why he was soo good at evading *Lee was because his moves were soo linear.Combining that with the sharingan-like battle senses provided by the Curse Seal practically spells being able to perfectly guard against linear attacks.* There is only one thing I am learning from these battle doms. SPELL EVERY MINUTE DETAIL OUT.(That not targeted to you. But alot of people made me realize this)


That's got to be the most ridiculous form of trash logic i've seen.  Because one is good at evading linear moves from lee, if you add the sharingan then he becomes able to perfectly guard against ALL linear attacks?  

So if Goku or Superman Prime or 8th gated Gai were to attack kimimaro with the same kinds of taijutsu that base lee uses, he'd be able to perfectly guard against their attacks?  Goodness gracious, don't waste my time.





Csdabest said:


> I shown you that page in the Kimimaro + Bee vs Blind Sage Madara thread. Its when Orochimaru and Kabuto was speaking about Kimimaro going to retrieve Sasuke.  It was in reference to Kaguya Clan while speaking about the potency of Uchiha Sasuke's potential for a vessle. I believe its between Chapter 200-212. If i find it later I'll PM it to you if your really that interested.


Not the same thread so you have to bring up the link again.







Csdabest said:


> Well considering that your able to generate more force with your arms and legs than your neck is clear cut on the situation. Like I said retcon or due to orochimaru failing body and kishi's suckage at manga portrayals.


A normal human opperates with that logic.  Orochimaru doesn't as none of his feats suggests he can generate that kind of power with his arms or legs.




Csdabest said:


> There are many colors of diamonds and it can come in some different type of form. Considering we now know Shukaku's power is Jinton and it envolves particle break down and particle compression(Oonoki and Magentism)  combined with Gaara statements of grinding of and compression. It clear to see why Shukaku sand shield didnt look like your typical diamond.


So if it's not pure diamond, then why assume it is?  IF it was as strong as diamond or if it uses diamonds, then we'd expect to see some kind of statement about it.  



Csdabest said:


> Proof. Explain to me how Gaara is stronger than himself with out a Bijuu.  gaara created a bigger sand shield thanks to more chakra. That no way means his defense should of be stronger than the one kimibroke through. If anything is should mean that Gaara should be able to create an even Bigger Shukaku defense.


Reread the post you are responding to, I don't even mention the shuukaku defense.


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## ueharakk (Apr 30, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Iron and steel are attributes of Earth. Earth is Strong against wind. I broke this down against the other guy. If you want to know my optinion I believe it was against that Lewis guy.  How is that a normal rasengan when it powered by KCM Naruto. Also *Those black chakra rods are highly malleable meaning that its durability most likely can change with user. *But I see your point. But like I told the last guy. FRS is made up of millions of tiny wind blades. If one wind blade is ineffective. Then multiply it by a million a million times over. Its still equals zero effectiveness


Um, based on what logic is earth strong against wind?  Doesn't matter if it's a KCM rasengan, it's still an attack that's absolutely nothing compared to KCM/SM FRS and what sandaime raikage took.  FRS made up of millions of tiny wind blades is irrelevant to its attack power, what matters is the force behind each of those wind blades.  Jinton does its damage with even smaller attacks, yet it destroys the most durable substances in the NV.  Finally, the FRS wind blades have vaporized the chakra receivers which proves that it's capable of damaging 3x more durable than steel.

The bolded is completely baseless, and is also irrelevant since it's not positive evidence that the black chakra rods that naruto destroyed were in fact any different than the ones shizune cut.  don't waste my time.





Csdabest said:


> How so? We both seem to think Iron and steel are in the same tier of Durability, strength, and hardness as one another. Which means Kimimaro and the Raikages virtually have the same level of durability. Your the one trying to draw lines and a difference in an area where the is no real difference.


no, i think steel is far more durable than iron based on the fact that flesh is more durable than blood, and sandaime's flesh is steel while his blood is iron.

In addition to that, I've shown you how the raikage's durability isn't literally as strong as steel, it's far beyond that.  





Csdabest said:


> And Lee stated that it doesn't matter how good your eyes are if your body cant keep up it doesnt matter. This manga has shown their being a problem with the eyes not being able to keep up with the body movements (Sharinganless Chidori 101). * So Sasuke against V1 had both superior tracking and body speed to V1 Raikage. *Either on par, slightly, im not gonna draw straws.  And Curse Seal also gives the user the same Battle senses as 3-tomoe sharingan. As stated by Sasuke at VOTE when he made the comparison between the two.  If Sasuke didn't have Sharingan to aid him. Yeah he would have gotten his head knocked off probably. But Sasuke would have still landed his blow on raikage. Ei winning out in this situation would have been a testament of superior strength and durability not speed at V1.


The bolded is absolutely not the logical conclusion one arrives at from the above unbolded.  One doesn't need BOTH speed and reactions above another in order to counterblitz, the conclusion one would arrive at is that simply having better reactions isn't enough to compete, you also have to have SUFFICIENT body speed in order to physically react.  Does SUFFICIENT = SUPERIOR!?  Obviously not.  KN0 Naruto had far superior body speed than Sasuke did at VoTe, yet Sasuke was blitzing him left and right.  KN1 Naruto was way faster than even KN0 Naruto, yet sasuke was able to react.  So no, counterblitzing =/= being BOTH superior in reaction and speed.  

the cursed seal doesn't give you anything similar to precog of the 3 tomoe sharingan, if Sasuke didn't have the 3 tomoe, he wouldn't have even had chidori prepared by the time Ei was on him, he would be busy trying to follow Ei's movements.




Csdabest said:


> Actually your just proving your not taking the manga as whole rather than bits and pieces. (Atleast for some parts) While downplaying certain parts for your benefit.(Not all but certain. Sasuke dodging amaterasu, Curse seal and kaguya battle senses to name a few). Also explain to me how I am waisting your time when your the one who came into this thread without invitation( didnt directly invite you).. Any waist ed time is your own fault and your own issue. There are several post I could have waisted my time on in this thread but didnt. The power is yours my friend.


Wasting my time = bringing up arguments you know are untrue, far more implausible than not, or utilize blatant double standards in evaluating both combatants.  

They waste my time because you know they aren't true, and it's just busy work for me to call you out on them, break them down, and then back you into a corner exposing how ridiculously implausible or double-standardy they are.  Rather than having me do that, just debate honestly, evaluate both neutrally, don't give Kimimaro the MASSIVE benefit of the doubt while downplaying Sandaime raikage to his absolute lowest limits and then beyond that.


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## Veracity (May 1, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Actually Healthy Kimimaro>>>Hebi Sasuke minus Kirin & Chidori
> Because as far as clan abilities goes Orochimaru still wanted Kaguya's clan powers over the Uchiha's powers.  Kimimaro has demonstrated similar battle senses to Sasuke. Has the same base stats. But better Taijutsu. Has a Curse Seal that has equal power(Boosting their stats in a similar fashion.) The thing that makes Kimimaro's Superior to hebi Sasuke is the level of Clan ability. Sasuke 3-tomoe Curse Seal level doesn't really have much in his arsenal to put Kimimaro down due to his base physical stats and clan ability. Sasuke's Mangeyo on the other hand can.
> 
> 
> ...



Give me some feats or a scan to suggest that Kimmi>>> Hebi Sasuke.

Oro preferring Kimmis clan over Uchiha ? Let me get a scan for that also. And even if that was true, that's more or less based on preference, and the fact that using the Sharinagn as a non Uchiha drains ones chakra at a ridiculous rate, and that using the Sharingan requires a tremendous amount of skill as opposed to Kimmis ability.

Having the same base stats doesn't mean much, as the DB is inconsistent. Killer bee possesses a 4 in speed opposed to Kimmis 4.5, yet can react to V1 Bee, does this mean Kimmi can react to a speedster like that ?

Curse seal boosting stats doesn't mean much. Jiribo and Tayuya also have this , but nobody is hyping them. 

Sasuke doesn't have to be able to put Kimmi down to be superior to him, he just simply lacks the destructive power to do so . You can restrict Minato to FTG and Kunai and he'd be massively superior to Kimmi despite not being able to actually kill Kimi. 

Your entire argument is based on DB stats. They are inconsistent lol. Like Kakuzu with a 4 speed blind side attacking 2.5 Shikamaru and Shikamaru casually avoiding such while concentrating on Kakuzu. I also have all of those examples;


DB stats are unreliable.
 Kakuzu with a 4 distracted and blind side attacked  2.5 Shikamaru, and Shikamaru dodged.
 Kisame with a 4 reacting and getting the upper hand on V1 Bee.
 Tsunade with a "3.5" blitzing Shizune and Oro.
 Hidan with 3.5 reacting perfectly fine to 4.5+ Sharingan Kakashi 
 Hebi Sasuke with the same speed stat as Deidara not blitzing albeit the fact that Deidara was distracted and has a poor Taijustu stat.
 Yamato and Kisame holding the same speed stat.
 PTS Lee, Kakuzu, Kisame, and PTS Kakashi all sharing the same speed stat.
 Tenten> Hiruzen in speed.
 PTS Neji> Hidan in speed. 

It doesn't not scream that Kimmi is better.

Okay so by you Kimmi has 
An equal body + equal seal mark + clan ability + slightly better taijjstu.

Sasuke has ;
Equal body + equal seal mark + Uchiha clan.

You also neglect to add the massive Genjustu advantage Sasuke has, the intelligence advantage, and the Ninjustu advantage. True Kimmi also posses a perfect Ninjustu stat like Sasuke, but it's the same difference between Tsunade and Hashirama who both posses a perfect Ninjustu stat.

Jirayia being superior to Itachi and Kisame is true ? Are you serious right now lol? I don't have to have panel evidence to prove that that's just a load of garbage.

Nobody is trying to disprove anything. Kimmi is strong and all, just not on a Kage level. Mid Kage level is just a joke.

Defeating fodder samurai credits Kimmi with nothing. They are fodder. That's all.

Of course Itachi and Kimmi have better feats. They are in a better condition, Except the feats Edo Kimi has performed aren't even impressive.

Lee being able to fight, doesn't put him at his best, especially considering he flees the hospital to fight Kimmi , meaning he still was in healing condition.

I think this whole "death bed " argument is a little exaggerated. Itachi was on his "death bed" yet his speed only jumped a bit as an Edo. I would normally agree with this "death bed " statement if Kimmi had any impressive feats as an Edo, but he simply doesn't.

Kimmi only shutdown Lee because Lee didn't have the power to bypass Kimmis durabilty. Lee could have possessed Tsunade level taijustu and Ay level speed yet would not have been able to do anything as he was physically too weak . But its to note that drunken Lee was practically dancing around Kimmi, and would have causally been able to kill him if it want for his lack of strentgh.

That's not even what happened at all. Itachi broke Bees LoS and still failed to blitz bee despite bee swinging the entire weight of Samehada. Then Itachi engaged a 7% Naruto in a TAIJUSTU SKIRMISH . Nothing more. He simply stalemated Naruto KCM in taijustu( has never once been mentioned to be skilled at taijustu) and used Nagatos Edo linked sight to dodge killer bee swinging heavy ass Samehada again. This doesn't help Itachi much. He already possess a 4.5 in taijustu .

Gai is at superior to Lee in taijustu. Just because you train under someone doesn't mean you posses their skill set. Which explains Sakura, Shino, and Tenten.

Madara probabaly thinks Gai is the best because he an create tigers from air friction. I would think the same anyway. It doesn't matter much as Gai is the best with Tsuande coming in second.

The thing that separates Gai from Lee is everything. Strentgh, reactions, speed, gates, taijustu skill, endurance, durabilty, intelligence... Literally everything. And the gap is large. 

That statement is nothing more then hype. Do you seriously believe Kimmi is above the Sannin ? Like really ?

You want some the ridiculous hype ? Jirayia hyped Tsunade to be unsurpassable in combat. Jirayia has extensive knowledge on a various amount of Akatsuki members, as well as knowing all of the leafs Jounin, all of the Sannin, the sage toads, and prime Hirzuen himself. So apparently Tsuande is stronger then all of them huh? Lol.


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## rubberguy (May 1, 2014)

I first thought this is NB. Someone actually debating kimi vs 3rd raikage?


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## Csdabest (May 1, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Give me some feats or a scan to suggest that Kimmi>>> Hebi Sasuke.


 Im not turning this into Kimmi vs Hebi Sasuke. If you wanna debate it make the thread and I'll participate. 



> Oro preferring Kimmis clan over Uchiha ? Let me get a scan for that also. And even if that was true, that's more or less based on preference, and the fact that using the Sharinagn as a non Uchiha drains ones chakra at a ridiculous rate, and that using the Sharingan requires a tremendous amount of skill as opposed to Kimmis ability.


Except it was in direct reference to what kimimaro "WAS" capable of vs Sauske's potential.



> Having the same base stats doesn't mean much, as the DB is inconsistent. Killer bee possesses a 4 in speed opposed to Kimmis 4.5, yet can react to V1 Bee, does this mean Kimmi can react to a speedster like that ?


 Killer be has no databook stat. Please don't lie in a debate it destroys your credibility. The DB was cut off at 3 and stopped after Sasuke vs Itachi.



> Curse seal boosting stats doesn't mean much. Jiribo and Tayuya also have this , but nobody is hyping them.


 The Sound 4 are not comparable to Sasuke and Kimmi. They completely outclass them in skill. Also considering Kabuto and Orochimaru separated the fact that Kimmi Earth Seal and Sasuke Heaven seal was equal in power greatly points to the fact that all curse seals dont have the same power. 



> Sasuke doesn't have to be able to put Kimmi down to be superior to him, he just simply lacks the destructive power to do so . You can restrict Minato to FTG and Kunai and he'd be massively superior to Kimmi despite not being able to actually kill Kimi.


 Yeah. But Dont make me debate Minato vs Kimimaro again. I already had his fans talking about how Minato would just warp back to konoha and just wait it out on some bitch shit. Because when I brought up the range and AOE that Kimimaro's bone forest takes up. That had no answers. But yeah. Minato Shiki fujin GG



> Your entire argument is based on DB stats. They are inconsistent lol. Like Kakuzu with a 4 speed blind side attacking 2.5 Shikamaru and Shikamaru casually avoiding such while concentrating on Kakuzu. I also have all of those examples;
> 
> 
> DB stats are unreliable.
> ...



Its because people like you dont know how to read the Databook. I must admit I did it wrong do. Those stats are not including chakra enhancements for speed and strength such as shunshin or Sakura chakra punch. Thats base body speed in what Gai and Lee use. 99% of Shinobi can't even fight with shunshin because it moves to fast its normally used to dodge or escape or close distance not to fight with. But people Like Sasuke, Raikage, and Minato can because of their insane reflexes. Those stats are base body speeds and shinobi do not always shunshin around. Mike Tyson can dodge punches from Mayweather but that doesn't stop May Weather from being faster.



> Okay so by you Kimmi has
> An equal body + equal seal mark + clan ability + slightly better taijjstu.
> 
> Sasuke has ;
> Equal body + equal seal mark + Uchiha clan.


Kimimaro clan has the strongest body and body ability according to Kimimaro. And kimimaro has one of the best Taijutsu in the manga. The only ones that Match him from my Knowledge are Gai and lee Taijutsu stat. not even Itachi shares a 5 tier with Kimimaro.



> You also neglect to add the massive Genjustu advantage Sasuke has, the intelligence advantage, and the Ninjustu advantage. True Kimmi also posses a perfect Ninjustu stat like Sasuke, but it's the same difference between Tsunade and Hashirama who both posses a perfect Ninjustu stat.
> 
> Jirayia being superior to Itachi and Kisame is true ? Are you serious right now lol? I don't have to have panel evidence to prove that that's just a load of garbage.


 This has nothing to do with Kimimaro vs Sandaime Raikage.



> Nobody is trying to disprove anything. Kimmi is strong and all, just not on a Kage level. Mid Kage level is just a joke.


Kimimaro already shown that he can beat Gaara. And gaara lost shukaku which his strongest most durable shield drew its power from. While Gaara AOE went back to its old ways by himself he has yet to produce that level of durable shields.  Mei is high level jounin fodder. And Tsunade gets skewered till she runs out of chakra from regenerating. The only Current Kages that can hang with Kimimaro is Raikage due to his speed, strength, and own durability and Oonoki due to his long Range Jinton beam. So if Kimimaro can spank 3 out of the 5 current kages. How is Kimimaro not kage level?



> Defeating fodder samurai credits Kimmi with nothing. They are fodder. That's all.


It does when it a similar feat to a shinobi im comparing him to.



> Of course Itachi and Kimmi have better feats. They are in a better condition, Except the feats Edo Kimi has performed aren't even impressive.


 Kimimaro shown that not even chakra blades can cut through his bones cleanly when Chakra blades have cut through other steel swords and hard durable material. Kimimaro also shown he can spam his Bone forrest Technique and shoot his bones from all points from his body in 360 fashion that can pierce the samurai's armor.



> Lee being able to fight, doesn't put him at his best, especially considering he flees the hospital to fight Kimmi , meaning he still was in healing condition.


And Kimimaro was on his death bed



> I think this whole "death bed " argument is a little exaggerated. Itachi was on his "death bed" yet his speed only jumped a bit as an Edo. I would normally agree with this "death bed " statement if Kimmi had any impressive feats as an Edo, but he simply doesn't.


 Itachi and Kimimaro are not comparable. Itachi was dying of an illness and was still moving around actively being a member of akatsuki and completing his mission. Kimimaro WAS LITERALLY ON HIS DEATHBED hooked up to life support machines to keep him alive. Kimimaro condition was soo bad that he was removed from his own group the sound 5 and was hence called the sound 4 because of his condition.  



> Kimmi only shutdown Lee because Lee didn't have the power to bypass Kimmis durabilty. Lee could have possessed Tsunade level taijustu and Ay level speed yet would not have been able to do anything as he was physically too weak . But its to note that drunken Lee was practically dancing around Kimmi, and would have causally been able to kill him if it want for his lack of strentgh.


 Lee couldnt get through because Kimimaro was faster and more skilled. Kimimaro didnt even use any of his dances against Rock lee he was just fighting with his bone sword. And was outclassing lee. Kimimaro only had trouble dealing with the unpredictable moves even Sasuke had trouble dealing with unorthodox style of bee. Drunken Lee didnt really even damage kimimaro or land any clean solid blows. Kimimaro put more effort into defeating Naruto than Lee. The manga even follows a theme of shinobi underestimating Lee and Gai and paying for it. It has happened in every single one of their fights.


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## Csdabest (May 1, 2014)

> That's not even what happened at all. Itachi broke Bees LoS and still failed to blitz bee despite bee swinging the entire weight of Samehada. Then Itachi engaged a 7% Naruto in a TAIJUSTU SKIRMISH . Nothing more. He simply stalemated Naruto KCM in taijustu( has never once been mentioned to be skilled at taijustu) and used Nagatos Edo linked sight to dodge killer bee swinging heavy ass Samehada again. This doesn't help Itachi much. He already possess a 4.5 in taijustu .



I like how you have to dance around it. But its cool. Your still saying that Itachi held his own in CQC against Bee and Naruto at the same time. Also superior speed can make shitty taijutsu still good. Haku for example was pretty fast shinobi especially with his Kekkei. But his taijutsu sucked. But still managed to be proficient in it thanks to his speed. Which was the whole point of me bringing this up.Itachi held his own against a masterful swordsman with an unorthodox style that is insanely fast and against a brawler shinobi who is pretty fast as well.



> Gai is at superior to Lee in taijustu. Just because you train under someone doesn't mean you posses their skill set. Which explains Sakura, Shino, and Tenten.


 Yes and Lee Mimicks Gai's style. Kimimaro stated that lee taijutsu was useless against him because its soo linear. Its the Strong Fist style in general thats ineffective to Kimimaro. Right now the only real difference between lee and Gai is the number of gates they can open.



> Madara probabaly thinks Gai is the best because he an create tigers from air friction. I would think the same anyway. It doesn't matter much as Gai is the best with Tsuande coming in second.


 Madara said hands down no one even comes close. The only one that possibly could is Rock Lee because he master Gai's technque and has almost mastered the gates. He just needs to get his physical stats up there which arnt far off and he will practically be gai Sensei. The only one that has shown nearly the same amount of skill in taijutsu as Gai and Lee are Kimimaro, and Killer Bee along with Itachi.





> That statement is nothing more then hype. Do you seriously believe Kimmi is above the Sannin ? Like really ?


 Tsunade yes. Jiraiya was not an active shinobi of Konoha at the time in which he is excluded. Tsunade was however being their Hokage. The Sannin Got their legend through teamwork. Not as individuals even though they are all insanely powerful. One on one kimimaro would destroy Tsunade but only be able to give Orochimaru and Jiraiya a good fight/ run for their money. 



> You want some the ridiculous hype ? Jirayia hyped Tsunade to be unsurpassable in combat. Jirayia has extensive knowledge on a various amount of Akatsuki members, as well as knowing all of the leafs Jounin, all of the Sannin, the sage toads, and prime Hirzuen himself. So apparently Tsuande is stronger then all of them huh? Lol.



Yeah. Hype is to be taken as is until proven otherwise. You want to know the best thing about panel time and having good showings every time you perform on panel. And get insane hype statements from the databook and manga. The best part of few showings is that you dont get many showings or opportunities to prove it wrong. And if every time you show up you do good. Then there is no reason to believe other wise.

Kimimaro is practically the Wolverine of Naruto verse minus the healing factor.(Though he does have a certain level of regen healing form creating new bones that rip through his flesh and repairing his skin and body from being crushed by sand coffin.) But his skeletal frame is stronger than steel which does alot. Not to mention he can layer his skin with those types of bones goes to show that kimimaro is no joke. Orochimaru hype on Kimimaro ability and the potential Sauske fullfilled by becoming hebi sasuke combined with the identical stat distribution between Sasuke and Kimimaro after training under the same master. Goes to show that Hebi Sasuke is how Kimimaro power should be scaled two and represented in part 2.

Its exactly like how Suigetsu is portrayed that he can wield The Great Beheader sword in similar fashion and mastery to how Zabuza used it. Though Suigets has yet to go out with it his skills are respected to be on zabuza level with it.



> That's not even what happened at all. Itachi broke Bees LoS and still failed to blitz bee despite bee swinging the entire weight of Samehada. Then Itachi engaged a 7% Naruto in a TAIJUSTU SKIRMISH . Nothing more. He simply stalemated Naruto KCM in taijustu( has never once been mentioned to be skilled at taijustu) and used Nagatos Edo linked sight to dodge killer bee swinging heavy ass Samehada again. This doesn't help Itachi much. He already possess a 4.5 in taijustu .



I like how you have to dance around it. But its cool. Your still saying that Itachi held his own in CQC against Bee and Naruto at the same time. Also superior speed can make shitty taijutsu still good. Haku for example was pretty fast shinobi especially with his Kekkei. But his taijutsu sucked. But still managed to be proficient in it thanks to his speed. Which was the whole point of me bringing this up.Itachi held his own against a masterful swordsman with an unorthodox style that is insanely fast and against a brawler shinobi who is pretty fast as well.



> Gai is at superior to Lee in taijustu. Just because you train under someone doesn't mean you posses their skill set. Which explains Sakura, Shino, and Tenten.


 Yes and Lee Mimicks Gai's style. Kimimaro stated that lee taijutsu was useless against him because its soo linear. Its the Strong Fist style in general thats ineffective to Kimimaro. Right now the only real difference between lee and Gai is the number of gates they can open.



> Madara probabaly thinks Gai is the best because he an create tigers from air friction. I would think the same anyway. It doesn't matter much as Gai is the best with Tsuande coming in second.


 Madara said hands down no one even comes close. The only one that possibly could is Rock Lee because he master Gai's technque and has almost mastered the gates. He just needs to get his physical stats up there which arnt far off and he will practically be gai Sensei. The only one that has shown nearly the same amount of skill in taijutsu as Gai and Lee are Kimimaro, and Killer Bee along with Itachi.





> That statement is nothing more then hype. Do you seriously believe Kimmi is above the Sannin ? Like really ?


 Tsunade yes. Jiraiya was not an active shinobi of Konoha at the time in which he is excluded. Tsunade was however being their Hokage. The Sannin Got their legend through teamwork. Not as individuals even though they are all insanely powerful. One on one kimimaro would destroy Tsunade but only be able to give Orochimaru and Jiraiya a good fight/ run for their money. 



> You want some the ridiculous hype ? Jirayia hyped Tsunade to be unsurpassable in combat. Jirayia has extensive knowledge on a various amount of Akatsuki members, as well as knowing all of the leafs Jounin, all of the Sannin, the sage toads, and prime Hirzuen himself. So apparently Tsuande is stronger then all of them huh? Lol.



Yeah. Hype is to be taken as is until proven otherwise. You want to know the best thing about panel time and having good showings every time you perform on panel. And get insane hype statements from the databook and manga. The best part of few showings is that you dont get many showings or opportunities to prove it wrong. And if every time you show up you do good. Then there is no reason to believe other wise.

Kimimaro is practically the Wolverine of Naruto verse minus the healing factor.(Though he does have a certain level of regen healing form creating new bones that rip through his flesh and repairing his skin and body from being crushed by sand coffin.) But his skeletal frame is stronger than steel which does alot. Not to mention he can layer his skin with those types of bones goes to show that kimimaro is no joke. Orochimaru hype on Kimimaro ability and the potential Sauske fullfilled by becoming hebi sasuke combined with the identical stat distribution between Sasuke and Kimimaro after training under the same master. Goes to show that Hebi Sasuke is how Kimimaro power should be scaled two and represented in part 2.

Its exactly like how Suigetsu is portrayed that he can wield The Great Beheader sword in similar fashion and mastery to how Zabuza used it. Though Suigets has yet to go out with it his skills are respected to be on zabuza level with it


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## trance (May 1, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Tsunade yes. Jiraiya was not an active shinobi of Konoha at the time in which he is excluded. Tsunade was however being their Hokage. The Sannin Got their legend through teamwork. Not as individuals even though they are all insanely powerful. *One on one kimimaro would destroy Tsunade* but only be able to give Orochimaru and Jiraiya a good fight/ run for their money.



LOL'd so hard at this. 

You've brought the wrath of the Tsunade fans on you.


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## Csdabest (May 1, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> LOL'd so hard at this.
> 
> You've brought the wrath of the Tsunade fans on you.



Bring it. Because we all know the chick can't fly.



Tsunade Needs to connect for her attacks to be effective. Kimimaro's abilities make sure that you will never hit him physically due to bone ability. Dance of the Willow and dance of the larch makes going taijutsu with this gai a Death wish.

*Tsunade is Light weight.*


Kimimaro's finger bullets would scarface Tsunade.


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## ueharakk (May 1, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Bring it. Because we all know the chick can't fly.
> 
> 
> 
> Tsunade Needs to connect for her attacks to be effective. Kimimaro's abilities make sure that you will never hit him physically due to bone ability. Dance of the Willow and dance of the larch makes going taijutsu with this gai a Death wish.



or tsunade just runs out of the bone forest that kimimaro made.....
or she breaks the branch that kimimaro is currently attached to and then breaks a legless Kimimaro....
tanks a stab to the gut and blows kimimaro's face open with one of her susanoo cracking punches....

tsunade tanks those attacks and breaks his face in half with a punch, using piercing taijutsu against Tsunade is a deathwish.


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## Csdabest (May 1, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> or tsunade just runs out of the bone forest that kimimaro made.....
> or she breaks the branch that kimimaro is currently attached to and then breaks a legless Kimimaro....
> tanks a stab to the gut and blows kimimaro's face open with one of her susanoo cracking punches....
> 
> tsunade tanks those attacks and breaks his face in half with a punch, using piercing taijutsu against Tsunade is a deathwish.



How when she going to be completely skewered limiting here movement.And any bone she destroys kimimaro can just make 10 more as shown that he has literally NO ISSUE GENERATING this. Its like trying to take wood away from hashirama. You destroying a few nots going to change the situation. Especially with Tsunade limited move set. it would be reduced to a cycle of tsunade charging in for a power punch and getting skewered by bones. Her falling back and recovering(That if its not a head shot or fatal blow) then rinse and repeat. But the thing is. with Sawarabi No Mai he can instantly sprout bones out the ground all over the battle field for an insane AOE range.


*Remember Tsunade can't Fly*


Also don't forget kimimaro can warp between the forest at high speeds to use his bone spear. And Sawarbi lifted gaara above those big ass trees as well. Not to mention coming from 200 meters from below the earth.  Kimimaro is Tsunade nuclear kryptonite.


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## FlamingRain (May 1, 2014)

I see the BS meter is really pegged in this thread.

Kabuto's statement could _at best_ have been referring only to the rookies because they were the only ninjas that the Leaf could have possibly sent after Sasuke at that time, and thus the only ones Kimimaro could have potentially run into (because all the higher ups that could actually leave the village were pre-occupied), and _at worst_ could have been a reference simply to Kimi's loyalty to Orochimaru. He was nothing but a pawn that served as a boss battle for a team of Chūnin level fighters in Part 1 and a couple nameless Samurai in Part 2 when he had Edo buffs.

Tsunade would turn him and his bone forest into gelatin.


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## ueharakk (May 1, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> How when she going to be completely skewered limiting here movement.


because if kimimaro is doing the skewering, his movement will be just as limited as hers.  She takes a hit and she breaks him.  



Csdabest said:


> And any bone she destroys kimimaro can just make 10 more as shown that he has literally NO ISSUE GENERATING this.


she's not aiming for the bone, she's aiming for kimi.  Kimi doesn't regenerate his face from a susanoo cracking punch.  



Csdabest said:


> Its like trying to take wood away from hashirama. You destroying a few nots going to change the situation.


hashirama doesn't use his wood as hand-held weapons or part of his taijutsu.  Hashirama uses his wood to attack via gigantic constructs and forests.  Kimimaro has one jutsu that does that, and it's bone forest which tsunade obviously doesn't attempt to go and break branch by branch.



Csdabest said:


> Especially with Tsunade limited move set. it would be reduced to a cycle of tsunade charging in for a power punch and getting skewered by bones. Her falling back and recovering(That if its not a head shot or fatal blow) then rinse and repeat.


that's where you are completely and utterly wrong.  It would be one cycle: tsunade runs in, she eats whatever bone attack kimimaro tries to skewer her with, and she grabs kimi and shatters his face with a susanoo cracking punch.  Why in the world would tsuande run in, eat damage and then run away?



Csdabest said:


> But the thing is. with Sawarabi No Mai he can instantly sprout bones out the ground all over the battle field for an insane AOE range.


So?  Tsuande just runs out of it.  At worse, she get shanked by one bone, and breaks it off like she did to madara's susanoo sword.



Csdabest said:


> *Remember Tsunade can't Fly*
> 
> 
> Also don't forget kimimaro can warp between the forest at high speeds to use his bone spear. And Sawarbi lifted gaara above those big ass trees as well. Not to mention coming from 200 meters from below the earth.  *Kimimaro is Tsunade nuclear kryptonite.*


You've given absolutely no reason why anyone should believe the bolded is true.  Worst case scenario, tsunade takes sawabiri no mai to the gut, shatters it with a punch and pulls it out like she did with the susanoo sword.  Kimi tries to pop out of a tree and shank her, she takes the hit, grabs his arm and splatters his brains with a punch to the face.  

If anything, tsunae is kimimaro's kryptonite.  The guy has to hack and slash her all day long in CQC in order to exhaust her regen, while all tsunade has to do is eat whatever attack he throws at her, grab him and blast his face open.


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## Veracity (May 1, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Im not turning this into Kimmi vs Hebi Sasuke. If you wanna debate it make the thread and I'll participate.
> 
> 
> Except it was in direct reference to what kimimaro "WAS" capable of vs Sauske's potential.
> ...



Make a thread for it. I'm in.

Yet you still haven't provided the scan. I'm waiting for it...

It doesn't take common sense to know that bee would have a 5 in speed. He's a speedster and is faster then Itachi, who possesses a 5. 

You want to argue Kimmi vs Minato ? Lol Minato is tiers upon tiers stronger then him. The problem is he lacks an offensive way to kill him, which is exactly what I said,

I know exactly how the DB works. I know it merely includes base stats. But the problem is we have no way of knowing how good someone shunshin is except chakra skill, Ninjustu and chakra control. So do you beeline that Kimi had better chakra control and a better shunshin then Sasuke ?

And the examples I posted( like 7 of then that you haven't countered) still are relevant because you have no way to prove that the character completed said feat has a faster shunshin.

So unless you believe that Kakashi possesses a inferior shunshin to Hidan, or Shikamaru possesses a superior shunshin to Kakuzu despite the DB speed difference, or Tsunade had a much faster shunshin then Oro, then your argument holds no merit.

His clan ability is cool and all but Uchiha are known to possesses too tier clan abilities and traits like reading body movements, reading chakra, copying Justu, and top tiered Genjustu. That's what makes his clan ability superior to Kimmis.

Tsunade also sports a 5 in taijustu, and according to feats( and hype) she could one panel Kimmi in CQC. That's off topic however. 

The thing that makes Sasuke such a problem in CQC is his Sharingan + raiton variants. Kimmi simply lacks the feats to destroy Sasuke in CQC. Sasuke can spar with killer bee in close quarters. You are merely scaling Kimmi directly to Hebi Sasuke and saying that because Hebi Sasuke can do so, this means that Kimmi can. No it doesn't at all.  Kimmis best feat is tangoing with PTS Lee. The difference between PTS Lee and base killer bee is ridiculous.

It does because you seem to believe that Kimmi > Hebi Sasuke. then you use they conclusion to say that Kimmi > Raikage. No.

Shukaku isn't his strongest form. His mother defense is. He used his Shukaku shield in a much weaker stat then he is now. He is older, more experienced, and far more powerful. KazeKage could use fodder sand( not powered by Shukaku at all) to block C3. He is much more powerful as a KazeKage as opposed to part 1.

Mei is Kage level as she is a Kage... She also can destroy Kimmi with acid mist btw.

Lol @ Tsunade. She can one panel Kimmi with 0 effort. Kimmi isn't coming even close to a Sannin, let alone the second best taijustu user in the manga.

Kimmi can't even see Raikage, and Onoki can one panel with Jinton.

Kimmi can "spank " the Kage by your baseless assumptions. Feat wise he gets destroyed.

Zabuza could defeated waves of fodder on the same manner that Madara did... So Madara = Zabuza now?

List some chakra blade feats, because I don't remember any impressive ones.

And those are feats that Kimmi could have done in part 1. Just didn't have the time to do so. They are hardly actually impressive.

Kimmi was causally moving around, talking casually, and even smirking to Lee at points. I find it really hard to believe he was as dead as Kishi exaggerated. True, he needed medical treatment( 'just like Lee btw) but it wasn't as severe as you make it seem. If it was as severe, Kimmi would have certainly gotten better feats.

Kimmi was outclassing base lee( using weights of IIRC) yes that's true, but it's also not impressive at all. Once Lee used his drunken style, then he was dancing all around Kimmi casually and only lost because he lacked the power to bypass his durabilty.

Like I said.. Lee had no problem hitting Kimmi here:
give chakra comparable to what was given to Kakashi
give chakra comparable to what was given to Kakashi
give chakra comparable to what was given to Kakashi
give chakra comparable to what was given to Kakashi
Lee hit him 4 times and if he has possessed any actual offensive strength, then he would have killed him casually.

Lee also had no problem dodging all his attacks here : give chakra comparable to what was given to Kakashi

And nearly blitzing him here In base: give chakra comparable to what was given to Kakashi

So it's safe to say that Lee held his own just fine, and would have killed him if it want for his durabilty, like I've said a million times.

Just because a ninja is unorthodox doesn't mean they are automatically unfightable. Bees unorthodox style is probabaly tiers faster, more impressive, and more skilled then Kimmis.

Superior speed only makes taijustu impressive if a shunshin is present, a dash, or it's mid range fighting. If it's solely extremely close fighting( exactly what happened in the Itachi feat) or an actual taijustu skirmish, then only taijustu matters. 

? bees style was actually very orthodox lol as he was using big ass samaheda. 

? 7% Naruto not using a shunshin and solely relying on taijustu skill is not a speedster. He is solos a mediocre taijustu user. 

Just because Lee mimicks Gais taijustu style doesn't mean he isn even close to Gais level, which is evident by feats. Sakura and Tsunade is a good example.

When did Kimmi state that lees taijustu was useless based on it being linear ? 

There is a big gap between Gai and Lee if we use feats and even hype. Base Gai can probabaly defeat 5th gated Lee.

If you are referring to red aura Gai then yeah of course. He is hundreds of times more powerful then even his 6th gate incarnation. He can move so fast he pulls Madara in with his sheer speed. I have no idea how you could logically compare him to Lee. Red aura Gai is so astronomically superior to Lee that's it's laughable. Yeah Lee isn't even close to the taijustu skill that Gai possesses. Not even close.


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## Veracity (May 1, 2014)

And . 

Kimmi is FAR below Tsuande..

What??! You serious ? The Sannin reverend their hype as Featless Jounin. Over a span of more then 20 years they have gotten far more powerful( Byakago, Sage mode, hydra etc) and have gained vast amount of knowledge. Tsunade even gets her hype based solely on the fact that she is one of the legendary ninja. She is tiers above Kimmi and so are both the other Sannin members.

If hype has to be taken seriously unless proven otherwise then Tsunade > Kimmi as she is unparalleled in combat.

 The difference between that analogy is that Suigetsu has actually showed high levels of proficiency with the sword, and Kimmi has been revived as an Edo Tensei and was so utterly useless that Kishi chose to off panel him.

Unless you provide feats for such, then Sandaime Kage >>>>> Hebi Sasuke>>Kimmi


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## trance (May 1, 2014)

@Csdabest

Seriously, learn what a retcon is. 

It's why nearly no one can possibly consider prime Hiruzen a match for Hashirama or Minato.


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## Csdabest (May 1, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> because if kimimaro is doing the skewering, his movement will be just as limited as hers.  She takes a hit and she breaks him.


 No Kimimaro can just spout them from the floor. It doesn't limit his movement at all. She gets skewered  and has no answer for it considering its range. 




> she's not aiming for the bone, she's aiming for kimi.  Kimi doesn't regenerate his face from a susanoo cracking punch.


Kimi survived getting crushed by sand coffin and by a whole feild of sand . You underestimate Kimimaro. And you think Tsnade can hit Kimimaro with just a punch when lee who is faster and has known better taijutsu couldn't even land a blow on him? That is absurd and that was with out kimimaro sprouting bones from all parts from his body. Kimimaro can just keep generating as much bones as needed. Tsunade is not touching kimimaro and if she gets close she is getting skewered by a half of dozen bones.




> hashirama doesn't use his wood as hand-held weapons or part of his taijutsu.  Hashirama uses his wood to attack via gigantic constructs and forests.  Kimimaro has one jutsu that does that, and it's bone forest which tsunade obviously doesn't attempt to go and break branch by branch.


Yea he has one jutsu. he doenn't need a bunch of jutsu doing the same thing. Kimimaro shown to be able to do it long range and short range of an area. And Tsunade who relies purely on taijutsu can not get into range for a hit with out getting stabbed by kimimaro's bones nor does she has the taijutsu skill and speed to land a hit either.




> that's where you are completely and utterly wrong.  It would be one cycle: tsunade runs in, she eats whatever bone attack kimimaro tries to skewer her with, and she grabs kimi and shatters his face with a susanoo cracking punch.  Why in the world would tsuande run in, eat damage and then run away?


 Yeah sure. She is going to just tank bones a shit done of bones emerging from the ground that are over 200 meters long and quite thick by the way. Kimimaro bones projectiles are able to rip through armor like nothing and his hardest bone can puncture diamond level durability. Tsunade is not tanking anything. She would literally get ripped to shreds.




> So?  Tsuande just runs out of it.  At worse, she get shanked by one bone, and breaks it off like she did to madara's susanoo sword.


Yeah. And kimimaro can just create more bones which he has shown to do. She is getting stabbed by mini sawarabi no mai from long range and if she is getting close her taijutsu isnt going to land because kimi completely outclasses tsunade in speed and taijutsu. And if she gets close Dance of the willow and larch would literally make it impossible for her to get close with out severe damage. And their is nothing stopping from kimi sending a bone right through Tsunade head. Not to mention Kimimaro can just spam His Bone Finger Bullets at her that can rip through samurai armor like butter to kite her. This battle would jsut play out with kimimaro ripping her to shreads while she regenerates until she can't no more.




> You've given absolutely no reason why anyone should believe the bolded is true.  Worst case scenario, tsunade takes sawabiri no mai to the gut, shatters it with a punch and pulls it out like she did with the susanoo sword.  Kimi tries to pop out of a tree and shank her, she takes the hit, grabs his arm and splatters his brains with a punch to the face.



Lke I said. After she free herself from one bone and recovers. there is NOTHING STOPPING KIMIMARO FROM DOING IT AGAIN.  As well as moving backwards. Kimimaro has shown that he was able to launch attacks at Gaara while simultaneously avoiding his sands grasps.  Kimimaro rapes Tsunade end of story.



> If anything, tsunae is kimimaro's kryptonite.  The guy has to hack and slash her all day long in CQC in order to exhaust her regen, while all tsunade has to do is eat whatever attack he throws at her, grab him and blast his face open.



That doesn't help her case. Because what happens when she takes a bone to the head. She isnt immune to head shots you know. Kimimaro can damage Tsunade at ease from at a distance and close range. he also outclasses Tsunade in taijutsu and his faster and more agile than her as well. Kimmaro durability is nothing to joke about with being able to layer his entire body with bones that are harder than steel. Being able to withstand and tank getting crushed by sand coffin.

He even survived getting crushed by this.


Kishi practically crafted a lethal CQC killing machine thats almost impossible to break especially when he is healthy. The fact that he has peirced the hardest defense known in this manga with his spear shows that he can practically rip through some of the most durable shinobi. Especially the raikages since their durability only ranks to the level of Iron and steel.

DOnt forget that Kimimaro also has the striking power to shatter solid bone that is harder,stronger, and more durable than the strongest steel.


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## Veracity (May 1, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Bring it. Because we all know the chick can't fly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry for the triple post but this is just so bad . 

Tsuande would absolutely wreck Kimmi 0 difficulty.

While rusty and injured , she was able to blitz Oro(4.5 just like Kimmi). She also posses superior taijustu to Kimmi, faster and speed, and faster and speed.

They engage on taijustu, and Tsunade connects first and blows him apart. His durabilty is weak sauce in the face of a chakra enhanced punch. 

Kimmi might not be able to even pierce Tsuande also .... She could tank a piercing attack( Yasaka) with no injury. The same attack that casually dug into Gaarras mother defense( which is stronger then the defense used to tank C3).


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## Veracity (May 1, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> No Kimimaro can just spout them from the floor. It doesn't limit his movement at all. She gets skewered  and has no answer for it considering its range.
> 
> 
> Kimi survived getting crushed by sand coffin and by a whole feild of sand . You underestimate Kimimaro. And you think Tsnade can hit Kimimaro with just a punch when lee who is faster and has known better taijutsu couldn't even land a blow on him? That is absurd and that was with out kimimaro sprouting bones from all parts from his body. Kimimaro can just keep generating as much bones as needed. Tsunade is not touching kimimaro and if she gets close she is getting skewered by a half of dozen bones.
> ...


Kimmi will never IC go for sprouting bones out of the ground.. And even if he did, they don't have the speed feats to suggest she can't just outrun them ? She also can jump much higher then a boss summoning , so why can't she just jump over the bones and summon Katsuyu below herself ? Fuck it, she doesn't need Katsuyu at all.

Sand burial is FARRRRR weaker then Tsuande. And Lee is not faster then Tsunade at all. Unless you assume that Lee can blitz Oro then you are dead wrong, and his taijustu doesn't even come close to Tsunades at all. 

The bones can be punched through, and lack the offensive ability to even breach Tsunades skin unless you assume that he can attack stronger then a Yasaka.

She is faster and has more taijustu skill then Kimmi by a long shot. 

200 meters ? And when did Kimmi destroy Dimond ? If you are referring to his Gaara feat then that's funny as his spear was obliterated, and that was strongest spear, meaning he doesn't normally attack at that level.

Tsunade is much faster then Kimmi and also posses more taijustu skill as she was able to destroy Oro( could compete with 4k Naruto) and could even pressure Madara Uchiha. She could possibly simply blitz Kimmi actually.

It's your evidence that Kimmi posses the skill and speed to head shot Tsunade ? And that said head shot would kill her ?


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## Csdabest (May 1, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> @Csdabest
> 
> Seriously, learn what a retcon is.
> 
> It's why nearly no one can possibly consider prime Hiruzen a match for Hashirama or Minato.



Alright then. Show me the retcon where kimimaro isn't as good as I am claiming. I have shown how kimimaro is comparable to hebi sasuke in physicality when healthy(Hebi Sasuke has competitive speed feats to Raikage). I have demonstrated his durability feats that are on the level if not better than the Raikages. i have shown that his peircing power can peirce the greatest defense known in this manga that doesn't involve hax, i have shown you that he has the striking power to shatter material that is harder than the strongest steel to pieces. I have demonstrated how he excels in AOE at both long range and medium range and even long range with his greatest display of Sawarabi no Mai. How lethal it is to get in close range thanks to Dance of the willow and Larch. 

The only thing people in this thread are proving is their denial of how strong kimimaro is due to him dying from Ninja Aids. From Manga feats, databook statements, Manga statements about his power from The Great genius orochimaru who is respected due to this day for his insight. Gaara himself said if they were lucky because they were absolutley defeated by kimimaro if he didnt die from his illness. And thats from when he was on his deathbed. 

What has changed from Gaara back from part one from part 2. He doesn't have Shukaku anymore to generate the Ultminate Shukau shield. Yeah he can generate that aoe again but kimimaro has shown to deal with it. If Kimimaro speed is on par with Hebi Sasuke that can dodge Amaterasu. Which is a comparable feat to when Raikage in V2 dodged Amaterasu. Is it really a crime to say that Kimimaro is at least on par with that tier of speed at his peak and healthy.If its stated that kimimaro body and bones are insanely durable and he can layer his body with bones mask that are stronger than steel and the Raikages body are as durable as iron and steel. is it a crime to say that Kimimaro durability is on the same tier as them. Especially if it has yet to be proven. Not even chakra blades are even able to cut through kimimaro bones cleanly when the cut through regular steel and iron swords like butter. If Kimimaro peirces something with the durability of diamond which is the toughest substance so far known in this manga if i say that he can peirce raikage iron and steel like body is it really a crime. Also gold is also tougher too so hardest and strongest minerals is interchangeable as sees fit if you want to play word games. If Kimimaro absolutely outclasses one of the greatest taijutsu styles and users in the manga is it a crime to say that kimimaro isnt a beast at it.

None of these things have been retconned at all. All I see is downplaying because he died against gaara and lee from being ill and sick despite them not being able to break his body nor stop him. This man defeated Gaara Best display even by current standards while getting off of his deathbed. And has been stated by orochimaru and kabuto that there wasnt a single shinobi active at the time that could defeat Kimimaro. That list was Tsunade who was the hokage. Danzo who was running root, kakashi, gai, and the heads of the noble clan. 

We even saw that during the war arc that not much has changed for the older generation as much as skill and physical ability considering how kakashi still performed the same way against edo Zabuza. And We know edo tensei's are not ressurected to their full health. Yes Shinobi like kakashi gained a good technique and hax ability and Gai finally shown his full power. But its still a testament to Kimimaro's power and skill that he had if it had to be taken to those limits to put him down.


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## Veracity (May 1, 2014)

I'm hella posting right now. I don't Idc though.

This Hebi Sasuke dodging Amaterasu feat is ridiculous. Hebi Sasuke moves before Itachi fired Amaterasu, and Itachi was trying to keep Sasuke alive so he wasn't going to point blank blast Sasuke with Amaterasu when he knows he can't put it out.

It's also to note that Itachi used a slower version of Amaterasu, as he used a wave as opposed to a blast of Amaterasu. It's also never been mentioned that Itachi can use Amaterasu as fast as Sasuke. Also Ay moves after Sasuke used Amaterasu as opposed to Sasuke moving prior to Itachi using it, meaning that Ay's feat is way faster. 

ALSO, we have no indication to assume that Kimmi is randomly as fast as Hebi Sasuke. Even if they were equal( they def aren't) then they could he equal in a different manner. All the Gokage are implied to be around the same level. This doesn't mean Mei = Ay in speed.


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## Csdabest (May 1, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Kimmi will never IC go for sprouting bones out of the ground.. And even if he did, they don't have the speed feats to suggest she can't just outrun them ? She also can jump much higher then a boss summoning , so why can't she just jump over the bones and summon Katsuyu below herself ? Fuck it, she doesn't need Katsuyu at all.


 He did against the samurai. And kabuto replicated the same thing using kimimaro power against Sasuke and Co.



> Sand burial is FARRRRR weaker then Tsuande. And Lee is not faster then Tsunade at all. Unless you assume that Lee can blitz Oro then you are dead wrong, and his taijustu doesn't even come close to Tsunades at all.


 Tsunade is a 3.5 in speed at best. And lee never dropped below the 4 tier speed in this manga  So yes.You forget that When Tsunade fought orochimaru that his body was also on the verge of breaking down as well and couldn't use ninjutsu.



> The bones can be punched through, and lack the offensive ability to even breach Tsunades skin unless you assume that he can attack stronger then a Yasaka.


The yata beeds sliced Tsunade up what are you talking about? She didnt tank she took considerable damage and was skewered by susano-o multiple times. Yes Kimimaro has demonstrated of sending his bones out at quite a long range to stab shinobi that can pierce the samurai's steel plated armor. She isnt tanking shit. She may have some good taijutsu but the style she uses is very linear which Kimimaro battle senses both boosted by the curse seal can see through. Not to mention kimimaro is also faster than Tsunade .



> She is faster and has more taijustu skill then Kimmi by a long shot.


 Wrong Tsunade is a 3.5 in speed and Kimimaro shares a 4.5 in the speed tier with hebi sasuke. With a equally powerful curse seal that allowed sasuke to blitz the likes of Deidara and dodged amaterasu with it. Not to mention interrupted Itachi's god like speed hand seals. Kimimaro also has a 5 in taijutsu much like Kimimaro. But Tsunade after examining her style as a very limited and straight forward taijutsu style which kimimaro has shown to be able to deal with w/o using his kekkei ability. And throwing in his ability to supplement his style renders Tsunade useless against Kimimaro style and ability. The manga have constanly shown that when on the verge of death shinobi have trouble controlling certain foreign powers.  kimimaro was on the verge of death so he couldn't control nor adapt to his curse seal powers anymore. But Juugo did state at Kimimaro peak he was able to control his curse seal powers perfectly the same as Sasuke. So when healthy Kimimaro should recieve the same boost as sasuke if their curse seals are truly equal in power. 



> 200 meters ? And when did Kimmi destroy Dimond ? If you are referring to his Gaara feat then that's funny as his spear was obliterated, and that was strongest spear, meaning he doesn't normally attack at that level.



Gaara burried Kimimaro 200 meters below the sand and earth. And kimimaro using  sawarabi no mai broke through the ground high enough to reach above the giant tree's surrounding the area. Not to mention covered the entire battle field. Yes Gaara stated that the shield was comprosed of the strongest minerals in the earth. Which is Diamond if there is something harder then I guess kishi was reffering to that. But either way Kimimaro's strongest bone pierced through that. And yes the spear was shattered. It was shattered though purely by Kimimaro striking force which is a testament to kimimaro's striking power. That it was capable of shatter material that was harder and stronger than the strongest steel.



> Tsunade is much faster then Kimmi and also posses more taijustu skill as she was able to destroy Oro( could compete with 4k Naruto) and could even pressure Madara Uchiha. She could possibly simply blitz Kimmi actually.


Orochimaru has never fought once healthy in this manga and his body was breaking down and giving out on him during the fight not to mention he couldn't use ninjutsu. Tsunade speed tier is only 3.5 while Kimimaro is a 4.5 which is the same as sasuke's who trained under the same master. Sasuke has the same strength of curse seal meaning it should offer the same boost when mastered. At that speed Sasuke was capable of dodging Amaterasu and interrupting itachi hand seals. Kimimaro both displayed speed feats and taijutsu skilsl and implied scaling states that He completely outclasses tsunade in speed.



> It's your evidence that Kimmi posses the skill and speed to head shot Tsunade ? And that said head shot would kill her ?



Are you saying that Tsunade can survive with a giant bone pierced through her brain? A Bone that can peirce through steel. That Tsunade can still function. Kimimaro has deadly precision with his movements and skill  as stated by Rock Lee himself. Kimimaro has 5 tier in taijutsu and is faster than tsunade in base and when he is healthy he has curse seal to boost that speed even more. Kimimaro can sprout bones from the field quite easily at all types of AOE as demonstrated in his fight against the samurai, gaara, and kabuto when using his power.


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## Kyu (May 1, 2014)

Sandaime Rapes; figuratively _and_ literally.


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## Csdabest (May 1, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I'm hella posting right now. I don't Idc though.
> 
> This Hebi Sasuke dodging Amaterasu feat is ridiculous. Hebi Sasuke moves before Itachi fired Amaterasu, and Itachi was trying to keep Sasuke alive so he wasn't going to point blank blast Sasuke with Amaterasu when he knows he can't put it out.


 If Sasuke feat doesn't count then Raikage speed feat doesnt count because leaving an after image is by definition what yourside of the argument is describing which discredits sasuke when he does it.



> It's also to note that Itachi used a slower version of Amaterasu, as he used a wave as opposed to a blast of Amaterasu. It's also never been mentioned that Itachi can use Amaterasu as fast as Sasuke. Also Ay moves after Sasuke used Amaterasu as opposed to Sasuke moving prior to Itachi using it, meaning that Ay's feat is way faster.


 Manga panel of where it says Amaterasu was slower. Itachi missed and chased Sasuke down. Raikage dodged it same way sasuke did but he wasn't chased down. No is even saying that Hebi Sasuke is faster. Your petty side of the argument is not even willing to admit that their speed feats are on the same tier. Despite sasuke dodging it from a faster shinobi.



> ALSO, we have no indication to assume that Kimmi is randomly as fast as Hebi Sasuke. Even if they were equal( they def aren't) then they could he equal in a different manner. All the Gokage are implied to be around the same level. This doesn't mean Mei = Ay in speed.


Juugo stated that Kimimaro had perfect control over the curse seal. We can assume thats when he was heavy because he struggled to control it while he was on the verge of death facing gaara. Orochimaru and Kabuto stated that Kimimaro Curse Seal of earth was equally powerful as sasuke's curse seal of heaven. So if Sasuke curse seal power boosted his 4.5 speed to that level then Kimimaro equally powerful curse seal should boost his 4.5 speed to around that level as well.

Also remember back at VOTE Sasuke stated that his insight and battle senses where that of teh 3-tomoe Sharingan meaning that Curse Seal states give base sharingan like battle insight.


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## Turrin (May 1, 2014)

In fairness to Csdabest, Kimi should be rated in terms of a range rather than in terms of a set "level". DB Stats place Base Kimi at around Zabuza's "level". However if those are "sick" Kimi's stats, than perhaps we could see a raise in healthy Kimi's stats as far as Str, Sta, Spd, & perhaps even hand-seals, as that measures how fast someone can perform the seals as well, which I imagine would be slowed down by sickness. At Kimi's best maybe we could see his overall total rising 2 ~ 3 points. If that's the case it would put Kimi within the range of Hidan to Kakuzu "level" shinobi in base. Add on CS buffs (if they are as good as Hebi-Sasuke's) and Edo Buffs he might be somewhat above that, and reach around Sasori "level". If that's the case than Kimi at his best with CS2 activated may be able to put up a decent fight against some of the shinobi Csabest is listing for as long as CS2 would last, but ultimately even than i'm not seeing enough that would indicate Edo Kimi can win against the likes of Sandaime-Raikage, Tsunade, etc.. 

But on the flip side of this Kimi's low range would only place him just a bit higher than Zabuza, when CS is activated, if his stats reflect his healthy state, and if his CS isn't quite as good as Hebi-Sasuke's. 

Personally the truth is probably somewhere in the middle where Healthy (or Edo) Kimi is around Hidan ~ Kakuzu "level" depending on if he has CS activated or not.


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## ueharakk (May 1, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> No Kimimaro can just spout them from the floor. It doesn't limit his movement at all. She gets skewered  and has no answer for it considering its range.


Show me a scan of what you are talking about.  



Csdabest said:


> Kimi survived getting crushed by sand coffin and by a whole feild of sand . You underestimate Kimimaro. And you think Tsnade can hit Kimimaro with just a punch when lee who is faster and has known better taijutsu couldn't even land a blow on him? That is absurd and that was with out kimimaro sprouting bones from all parts from his body. Kimimaro can just keep generating as much bones as needed. Tsunade is not touching kimimaro and if she gets close she is getting skewered by a half of dozen bones.


Surviving sand coffin from Part 1 gaara has absolutely nothing on surviving an attack that cracked madara's big ribcage susanoo.

Did you just say part 1 gate-less lee is faster than tsunade?  By what logic?  And tsunade lands the hit because unlike lee, she's not worried about getting hit, in fact she wants to get hit so she can grab kimi or his bones and land a death punch.  Who cares if she gets skewered, it benefits her to get skewered since kimimaro is on the other end of those bones.




Csdabest said:


> Yea he has one jutsu. he doenn't need a bunch of jutsu doing the same thing. Kimimaro shown to be able to do it long range and short range of an area. And Tsunade who relies purely on taijutsu can not get into range for a hit with out getting stabbed by kimimaro's bones nor does she has the taijutsu skill and speed to land a hit either.


So kimimaro is going to spam bone forest over and over again and eventually run out tsunade's regen?  Obviously not, if kimimaro has to use his trump card in order to inflict a wound that tsunade can regen from all day, then he's obviously going to lose the battle of attrition.



Csdabest said:


> Yeah sure. She is going to just tank bones a shit done of bones emerging from the ground that are over 200 meters long and quite thick by the way. Kimimaro bones projectiles are able to rip through armor like nothing and his *hardest bone can puncture diamond level durability.* Tsunade is not tanking anything. She would literally get ripped to shreds.


Again, worst case scenario, tsunade gets shanked like she did from madara's sword.  She then breaks the bone pulls it out and regens like nothing happened.  Kimi on the other hand has just spend a ton of chakra on his trump card.  Guess who's going to tire out first?   And no, unless the manga explicitly states the shukaku defense has diamond level durability, you can't claim it does yet at the same time say sandaime raikage only has the same durability as steel.  




Csdabest said:


> Yeah. And kimimaro can just create more bones which he has shown to do. She is getting stabbed by mini sawarabi no mai from long range and if she is getting close her taijutsu isnt going to land because kimi completely outclasses tsunade in speed and taijutsu. And if she gets close Dance of the willow and larch would literally make it impossible for her to get close with out severe damage. And their is nothing stopping from kimi sending a bone right through Tsunade head. Not to mention Kimimaro can just spam His Bone Finger Bullets at her that can rip through samurai armor like butter to kite her. This battle would jsut play out with kimimaro ripping her to shreads while she regenerates until she can't no more.


What is mini sawarabi no mai, and by what feats can tsunade not avoid it?  If Kimi has to use bone forest after bone forest in order to just land a stab wound on tsunade in the best case scenario, he runs out of chakra.  
Tsunade doesn't care about taking damage, kimi tries whatever he did on lee, it doesn't matter tsunade either runs through it and grabs him, or she gets stabbed and grabs him.  Then he gets decked.  
Based on does kimi completely outclass her in speed and taijutsu? 
Tsunade's reactions, the fact that she knows the weakness of her own byakugo and the fact that she was able to last for hours against 5 madara susanoos without getting shanked in the head is what stops kimimaro from stabbing her in the head.





Csdabest said:


> Lke I said. After she free herself from one bone and recovers. there is NOTHING STOPPING KIMIMARO FROM DOING IT AGAIN.  As well as moving backwards. Kimimaro has shown that he was able to launch attacks at Gaara while simultaneously avoiding his sands grasps.  Kimimaro rapes Tsunade end of story.


Tsunade was able to last hours of getting stabbed in the gut by Madara's susanoos.  If in the best case scenario, kimimaro lands a gut stab on her with bone forest, how in the heck is he going to win if he has to use an entire bone forest to pull off that kind of damage?



Csdabest said:


> That doesn't help her case. Because what happens when she takes a bone to the head. She isnt immune to head shots you know. Kimimaro can damage Tsunade at ease from at a distance and close range. he also outclasses Tsunade in taijutsu and his faster and more agile than her as well. Kimmaro durability is nothing to joke about with being able to layer his entire body with bones that are harder than steel. Being able to withstand and tank getting crushed by sand coffin.


Those durability feats have absolutely nothing to do with taking a punch that cracks big ribcage susanoo to the face.  
Tsunade didn't take swords to the face despite fighting 5 V3 ems/rinnegan susanoo clones for hours and she knows the limits of her regen, so she's obviously not going to take a headshot.  In the best case scenario, kimimaro has to use his trump card to inflict damage on tsunade that she can heal from over and over and over again for hours.  Sure he might be faster and more agile, but no one is claiming she out taijutsus him, she has regen so she rushes in, takes the hits and crushes his skull.



Csdabest said:


> He even survived getting crushed by this.


So what?  It's the pressure of the attack the coffin that inflicts the damage, not the mass of sand.



Csdabest said:


> Kishi practically crafted a lethal CQC killing machine thats almost impossible to break especially when he is healthy. The fact that *he has peirced the hardest defense known in this manga* with his spear shows that he can practically rip through some of the most durable shinobi. Especially the raikages since their durability only ranks to the level of Iron and steel.


Don't waste my time.  The first statement is meaningless, anyone could make that claim for any shinobi in the manga and it would hold as much water as yours.

No, gaara's shukaku defense is absolutely not the hardest defense known in the manga.  you should be negged into the red for making that statement.

No, Sandaime raikage's durability isn't on the level of iron and steel as a normal rasengan easily destroys material 3 times more durable than steel, FRS cuts through and vaporizes the same stuff with ease, yet sandaime raikage only received surface scratches from a direct hit.  

Kusanagi which is stated to be able to damage objects that are as hard as diamond with oro's arm couldn't even penetrate KN4 cloak and Sandaime raikage is obviously much more durable than KN4 Naruto.




Csdabest said:


> DOnt forget that Kimimaro also has the striking power to shatter solid bone that is harder,stronger, and more durable than the strongest steel.


That doesn't mean anything, steel is such a low standard of durability in this manga fodder gennins back in the chuunin exam were firing steel-piercing attacks.  

Just look at how ridiculously biased your posts are.  You give Kimimaro the overwhelming benefit of the doubt by making gaara's shukaku defense on the same level of durability as diamond, yet when it comes to sandaime raikage, you rate him even below his lowest limits since you ignore the manga feats that completely negate the literally interpretation of his durability hype.  

Don't waste my time.  Debate honestly so I don't have to go and back you into a corner before you concede an argument that you never truly believed in.


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## IchLiebe (May 1, 2014)

A gallon of water weighs 8 pounds, a gallon of sand weighs roughly 19pounds...so double the mass.


We all know all much force water can put out in the forms of waves, so given the higher mass, Sand would put out more pressure per square inch so Kimi surviving that is astounding and that you are denying his durability feats are ridiculous, especially when FRS, and Temari's wind attack got through the Raikage's defenses.


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## Ashi (May 1, 2014)

Kimmimaro's last name isn't Kaguya


----------



## ueharakk (May 1, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> A gallon of water weighs 8 pounds, a gallon of sand weighs roughly 19pounds...so double the mass.
> 
> 
> We all know all much force water can put out in the forms of waves, so given the higher mass, Sand would put out more pressure per square inch so Kimi surviving that is astounding and that you are denying his durability feats are ridiculous, especially when FRS, and Temari's wind attack got through the Raikage's defenses.



Kimi surviving that would be astounding in comparison to a normal human, but in the naruto world, that's not impressive at all.  

People with normal durability like sakura *can let grenades go off in her hands* and it barely even draws blood.  *Sasuke can block a mini nuke with a CS2 wing.* Deva path can take a shockwave that sends him flying halfway across konoha through the ground and get up to fight. * Kakashi can take a kick that sends him flying with so much force that it collapses a big tree.* *Bee can take this punch to the face without any damage.*

Swap sakura with a normal human and you get body parts flying all over the place.  Swap Sasuke for a human and nothing remains.  Swap Deva for a human and the human maybe gets 50 feet before his body is completely coverted into a red carpet.  Swap kakashi with a normal human and he either gets a hole in his stomache or he coughs up his internal organs that have been turned into mush.  Swap bee with a human and we get a headless corpse.

Fact is that even the fodder shinobi have super human durability by our standards.  Thus in order to gauge an attack or defensive feat, we should do it relative to other narutoverse feats instead of relative to humans of our world.  

And by that, Kimimaro's best durability feat would be either taking gaara's sand coffin (which juices normal shinobi) with zero damage in his CS2 state, or his bones being strong enough to resist the samurai's chakra swords.  However, that doesn't put him anywhere near the level of sandaime raikage's durability.



Turrin said:


> In fairness to Csdabest, Kimi should be rated in terms of a range rather than in terms of a set "level". DB Stats place Base Kimi at around Zabuza's "level". However if those are "sick" Kimi's stats, than perhaps we could see a raise in healthy Kimi's stats as far as Str, Sta, Spd, & perhaps even hand-seals, as that measures how fast someone can perform the seals as well, which I imagine would be slowed down by sickness. At Kimi's best maybe we could see his overall total rising 2 ~ 3 points. If that's the case it would put Kimi within the range of Hidan to Kakuzu "level" shinobi in base. Add on CS buffs (if they are as good as Hebi-Sasuke's) and Edo Buffs he might be somewhat above that, and reach around Sasori "level". If that's the case than Kimi at his best with CS2 activated may be able to put up a decent fight against some of the shinobi Csabest is listing for as long as CS2 would last, but ultimately even than i'm not seeing enough that would indicate Edo Kimi can win against the likes of Sandaime-Raikage, Tsunade, etc..
> 
> But on the flip side of this Kimi's low range would only place him just a bit higher than Zabuza, when CS is activated, if his stats reflect his healthy state, and if his CS isn't quite as good as Hebi-Sasuke's.
> 
> Personally the truth is probably somewhere in the middle where Healthy (or Edo) Kimi is around Hidan ~ Kakuzu "level" depending on if he has CS activated or not.


I agree with this, and I think that even without the databook, the manga has given us good evidence in the form of character statements to rank Kimimaro  around Hebi Sasuke's level, and then possibly around chiyo level due to war arc portrayal.  

He was consistently compared to Hebi sasuke's 'calibre' and despite not having the sharingan to control juugo, he was strong enough to calm juugo's rages without even getting hurt.  He was also the only one of oro's minions capable of doing that.  Thus at his lower limit he should at least be on Juugo and Kabuto's level, but more likely than not, he's around Hebi Sasuke's level based on those statements, and Hebi Sasuke level would allow him to defeat people like Kakuzu/deidara, and possibly compete with sasori.

However, that's not the logic Csdabest uses, nor is that where he places kimimaro.


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## Csdabest (May 1, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Kimmimaro's last name isn't Kaguya



It is actually. Kimimaro also has some resemblance to THE KAGUYA aswell. If Kimimaro winds up being a descendant or some type of blood relations maybe people will respect his power abit more.


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## IchLiebe (May 1, 2014)

Yes, but constant crushing pressure from many tons...the power behind it is astounding, much more than Kirin(in terms of force exerted per square inch).

Force exerted over every inch of an object is much more devastating than an exponential amount of damage that only hits around half. Kimi's durability is off the chain, I would argue that he could survive a couple of consecutive hits from Tsunade or Sakura.

I don't think Kimi can take a 1 finger nukite, but hitting kimi is a whole other feat in and of it self. Kimis strength is in his agility, defense, awareness, and reactions. He isn't the fastest ninja, but good luck hitting him and when you do, you better hit hard. Kimi is high kage tier imo(healthy, and he legitimately had an illness)and was given a good division of the alliance a hell of a time as well as defeating the KCM Naruto Clone, when SM Naruto was able to defeat the 3rd Raikage, and was pierced by FRS and Temari's Wind jutsu, I would say that Kimi's spear would be on par with a 1 finger nukite possibly, depends on how you look at its feat piercing through Gaara's defense.

And a healthy Kimi would be able to fight and keep up with the Raikage for a day. He was able to spar with Naruto, force Lee to use the gates and fended off every attempt, then died right as Gaara was done for, and Gaara knew it was over at that moment adn that he got lucky...Lee as well.

How I see this going:

The battle starts Raikage charges up, rushes in...Kimi dodges and sticks the Raikage, doesn't pierce but throws the Raikage off balance for a second, Kimi then enter CS and Armors up Raikage charges in at full power, Kimi dodges makes his spear, Raikage goes for the Nukite, Kimi dodges, hits the Raikage in the stomach with his tail, to slow down the raikage and speed up his rotation and Kimi impales the Raikage from behind.


I just don't see the Raikage hitting Kimi, and if he does hit Kimi in the arm, he can just make a prosthetic arm like limb out of bone or make it into his spear. And it will take nothing less than the nukite to pierce Kimi's defenses.



Csdabest said:


> It is actually. Kimimaro also has some resemblance to THE KAGUYA aswell. If Kimimaro winds up being a descendant or some type of blood relations maybe people will respect his power abit more.



If Kimi was healthy, Orochimaru would've taken over the world and that's no shit.


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## Veracity (May 1, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Kimmi will never IC go for sprouting bones out of the ground.. And even if he did, they don't have the speed feats to suggest she can't just outrun them ? She also can jump much higher then a boss summoning , so why can't she just jump over the bones and summon Katsuyu below herself ? Fuck it, she doesn't need Katsuyu at all.
> 
> Sand burial is FARRRRR weaker then Tsuande. And Lee is not faster then Tsunade at all. Unless you assume that Lee can blitz Oro then you are dead wrong, and his taijustu doesn't even come close to Tsunades at all.
> 
> ...





Csdabest said:


> He did against the samurai. And kabuto replicated the same thing using kimimaro power against Sasuke and Co.
> 
> Tsunade is a 3.5 in speed at best. And lee never dropped below the 4 tier speed in this manga  So yes.You forget that When Tsunade fought orochimaru that his body was also on the verge of breaking down as well and couldn't use ninjutsu.
> 
> ...



Kabuto was controlling him, meaning his mindset was different.

Tsunades 3.5 comes from part 1 not current Tsuande. And it doesn't include shunshin which Tsunade is a master at( chakra control and 5 Ninjustu). And over already explained how the speed stat is inconsistent. She blitzed Oro who had a 4.5( he could react to 4k Naruto).

Oros body was not on the verge of breaking down lol. He merely had no arms which doesn't change anything at all. He still could moved out of the way considering he still has legs lol. He seemed to have no problem dodging and reacting to Jirayia with no arms. And he also is used to have a snake like body.

No it didn't at all. The injury was merely from the Sussano sword. The Yasaka didn't even breach her skin.

Sussano swords > Kimmi. Fodder steel< Tsunade. It doesn't matter anyway as his bone bullets don't have any speed feats to suggest Tsuande can't just dodge them or just run through them.

Being linear doesn't mean much when you are extremely skilled and faster then your opponent. Broly is also very linear yet see what he did to goku and piccolo?

And I've already proven how Tsuande is faster.

Sasuke never blitzed Deidara. Deidara was distracted by Tobi and still didn't get blitzed. Sasuke also never dodged Amaterasu as he got hit by it.

Tsuandes "straight foward " taijustu style tends to work very well. You don't have to be twisting and flipping to be a good taijustu specialist. This is exactly why she is revered as the second best in the manga; holding her own against 5 Sussano clones only using taijustu, destroying Oro in CQC, and managing to land attacks on Madara Uchiha.

Kimmi has been shown to deal with lees taijustu not Tsuande. There's a large difference. That like saying he can react to Juubitos shunshin because it's linear right ? Yeah lol . 

Kimmi was not as close to dying as you imply based upon his trash Edo feats. And yet again you base your entire argument on the DB stats in which I already tore down. Explain to me how Shikamaru reacts to 4 Kakuzu casually ? Or how Kisame reacts to 5+ bee despite being a 4? It doesn't make sense because he DB is trash.

True I guess( about the 300 meters) it doesn't matter much as Tsuande can casually jump above it like I said.

Gaara saying so doesn't mean it's true . Jirayia said that Tsunade is unsurpassable in combat , does that make it's true ? Tsunade said she could never die in a battle does that make it true ? The only way to defeat a Sannin is with another Sannin, is that true ? It's merely an over exaggeration. I don't think you understand when they are used.  If those are true then we know who wins this battle. 

No, it's shattered because the shield was way more durable then his spear. His is also the shield that is inferior to Gaara's mother shield. It's like punching a brick wall and breaking your knuckles.

Show me a scan to suggest that his body was "breaking " down. He just didn't have arms that's all. And I couldn't care less if he couldn't use Ninjustu. That has nothing to do with my point. My point is That  Tsuande blitzed the fuck out of Oro.

DB stats don't matter as if proven a million times.

She survived and was able to blitz Oro despite having her mid section( yes her heart) completely eradicated. She also survived being impaled through her spinal cord( which would normally instantly paralyze any body) and was able to move perfectly fine. She was also able to blitz Kabuto Despite having her intercostal lungs severed, which supersedes drowning. I find it feasible that Tsuande can survive her brain being punctured. Not that Kimmi has the strength to do so anyway as he cannot replicate the damage Yasaka can do.


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## Rocky (May 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Tsunades 3.5 comes from part 1 not current Tsuande. And it doesn't include shunshin which Tsunade is a master at( chakra control and 5 Ninjustu). And over already explained how the speed stat is inconsistent. She blitzed Oro who had a 4.5( he could react to 4k Naruto).



Tsunade's stats come from Part 2, and the speed statistic also includes reflexes and reaction time, which has nothing to do with Chakra control or Shunshin.

Tsunade didn't speed blitz Orochimaru. She got up and punched him the face, which he couldn't block for obvious reasons. If she was fast enough to speed blitz him, she would've done so at the beginning of the fight, and she would've blitzed Kabuto too, who is slower than Orochimaru. Instead, she struggled to hit Kabuto...

Lastly, I don't recall Orochimaru reacting effectively to any of Yonbi Naruto's attempted blitzes. Scans?



> Being linear doesn't mean much when you are extremely skilled and faster then your opponent. Broly is also very linear yet see what he did to goku and piccolo?



Broly was big, but he was one graceful friend. He was also so much faster, stronger, and more durable than the other Saiyans (and Piccolo) that his fighting style didn't really matter.

Tsunade on the other hand is not that superior to most of the shinobi she faces. Her linear style is easy to read imo (at least it seemed that way during the Madara battle). It just doesn't really matter because of Byakugo; she can make mistakes because she doesn't have to worry about most counter strikes. 



> This is exactly why she is revered as the second best in the manga.



Where? There are many people I'm taking before Tsunade in a physical brawl.


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## tkpirate (May 2, 2014)

3rd should win this without much difficulty,


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## ATastyMuffin (May 2, 2014)

Okay, this thread is fucking stupid.

Kimimaro has _no_ answer to his speed. To be frank, he's never been much of a speedy character, relative to other entities in this manga (Sage Mode users, Jinchuriki and the like). The Third Raikage has been hyped to be on the same level as his son in that department (excluding maximum-speed Body Flickers, of course). Ergo, the Third dances circles around this clone while the former attempts vainly to hit him.

Let's not include speed. Even then, the Third's physical strength is almost certainly *tiers* above Kimimaro's; the feat of wrestling a Tailed Beast to exhaustion will attest to that. Kimimaro isn't going to overpower this dude at any point in the fight. 

Finally, we get to durability and offense. Do I think that the Third can tear this guy apart? He doesn't even require One-Finger Nukite to be frank; four fingers is enough to slice his limbs cleanly in half. If Kimimaro's bones were cut half-way by a strike from run-of-the-mill samurai, something compared to _Lightning Blade_ will accomplish that by miles. On the other hand, Kimimaro isn't doing jack shit with his attacks. 

Someone, give me the strongest defense Kimimaro has ever breached with his Bloodline Limit. Compare that to the Third's feats of surviving a technique that had the *Nine-Tails *reeling from its impact.

Yeah, Kimimaro's not getting through that in this universe.


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## Veracity (May 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade's stats come from Part 2, and the speed statistic also includes reflexes and reaction time, which has nothing to do with Chakra control or Shunshin.
> 
> Tsunade didn't speed blitz Orochimaru. She got up and punched him the face, which he couldn't block for obvious reasons. If she was fast enough to speed blitz him, she would've done so at the beginning of the fight, and she would've blitzed Kabuto too, who is slower than Orochimaru. Instead, she struggled to hit Kabuto...
> 
> ...



Part 2 prior to the Madara fight, so it's still irrelevant.

I never said it had anything to do with shunshin or chakra control. That's my entire point. They are inconsistent regardless for obvious reasons. 

Tsunade moved from a floored position with her mid section in pieces and hit Oro before he could do anything. Him not having arms does what Rocky ? He still should( by the DB stats) have the speed to atleast move his damn legs, retract his sword, or atleast move his neck. But he didn't ? Why ? Because Tsunade is faster then him in CQC. 

At the beginning of the fight she was a farther distance from Oro.

She was also exhausted when she fought Kabuto and was less focused then when she fought Oro. She basically received a large speed increase against Oro. The same way Gai can go from pacing with Kakashi to appearing in front of Juubi Madara's face( 7th gate) in the same day, just like Tsuande did.

Reacts causally to his sneak attack: regen

Reacts to chakra arm: regen

Summons gates after Naruto's fastest offensive technique is used and intercepts it fine: Link removed

Uses the same maneuver 4k Naruto used, except he ragdolled 4k Naruto: Link removed

Lands a direct hit on 4k Naruto: Link removed

Oro did fine against Naruto, and if Tsunade had been there instead she probabaly would have snapped Naruto's muffin cap back blue to be honest. 

And Tsuande is much faster and durable then Kimmi. Your point is ?

Of course Tsuande isn't much superior to Deva pain, Oro( actually she destroyed him) and Madara Uchiha. Your point is ?


Of course she used Byakago to tank attacks. Take a second and think about exactly who she has used Byakago against in battle and you have your answer.

She has more hype in CQC then anyone else bar Gai.


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## Rocky (May 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> She was also exhausted when she fought Kabuto and was less focused then when she fought Oro. She basically received a large speed increase against Oro. The same way Gai can go from pacing with Kakashi to appearing in front of Juubi Madara's face( 7th gate) in the same day, just like Tsuande did.



Tsunade had just been stabbed multiple times by the Sword of Kusanagi. Please get that exhaustion argument out of my face. Do not try to tell me that she was in better shape against Kabuto.

And Kakashi never kept up with 7th Gate Gai.



> Reacts causally to his sneak attack: Link removed
> 
> Reacts to chakra arm: Link removed
> 
> ...



This is not what I asked for. Naruto's Chakra arms alone aren't representative of his foot speed, nor is his Bijūdama. 



> Oro did fine against Naruto, and if Tsunade had been there instead she probabaly would have snapped Naruto's muffin cap back blue to be honest.



Bijūdama GG if she acts cocky like Orochimaru.



> She has more hype in CQC then anyone else bar Gai.



In a standard close quarters match, she dies badly to all Top tiers. Like really badly. She dies even worse to the God tiers. She also loses to Itachi, Minato, B, and depending on knowledge, both Raikage & Mifune. 

If you mean _just_ Taijutsu, then she probably beats everyone outside of Bijū Sage Naruto or anything Jūbito level & up.


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## Veracity (May 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade had just been stabbed multiple times by the Sword of Kusanagi. Please get that exhaustion argument out of my face. Do not try to tell me that she was in better shape against Kabuto.
> 
> And Kakashi never kept up with 7th Gate Gai.
> 
> ...



She was exhausted when she fought Kabuto was she not ?...

No. She was in better shape against Oro then against Kabuto. 

7th gate Gai was faster against juubidara then against Edo Madara. That's my point.

What you asked for has nothing to do with what I said. I said "he reacted to 4k Naruto", and you asked for him reacting to a blitz ? I simply gave you Oro standing his ground against 4k Naruto.

Tsuande can replicate Oros feat of punching 4k Naruto in his dome. Instead, she probabaly tears his face apart. That's my point.

I mean CQC taijustu . Which is what I mean against Kimmi. She simply peels his muffin cap back blue.


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## Rocky (May 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> She was exhausted when she fought Kabuto was she not ?



And she had been *stabbed* multiple times when she "blitzed" Orochimaru.

Cut the excuses. 



> 7th gate Gai was faster against juubidara then against Edo Madara. That's my point.



Gai never tried to blitz Madara (who was in Susano'o at the time). Gai was also very worn.



> What you asked for has nothing to do with what I said. I said "he reacted to 4k Naruto", and you asked for him reacting to a blitz ? I simply gave you Oro standing his ground against 4k Naruto.



Well how fast are Yonbi Naruto's Chakra arms?



> I mean CQC taijustu . Which is what I mean against Kimmi. She simply peels his muffin cap back blue.



There are many that would slaughter her in Taijutsu, like the Jūbi jinchūriki & Current Naruto or Sasuke. Most likely Rikūdo and his family as well. They all just snap her neck.

She beats Kimimaro though.


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## Veracity (May 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> And she had been *stabbed* multiple times when she "blitzed" Orochimaru.
> 
> Cut the excuses.
> 
> ...



That's exactly my point ? Oro watched her get up like 3 times, and even in that terrible condition she could blitz Oro...

He didn't need to have to blitz Madara. Stop trying to twist the argument around me. You know damn well that 7th gate against JuubiMadara displayed a ridiculous speed boost.

4k Naruto's chakra arms are faster then Kimmi. Chakra arms are implied to be fast. That's why they are used to often.

Yes I know. What's your point ? They only beat her because their speed is ridiculous and hey are powered by the sage himself. They would also peel 7th gated Gais face off( best taijustu user user except the obvious god tiers). But she is far above Kimmi.


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## Csdabest (May 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> That's exactly my point ? Oro watched her get up like 3 times, and even in that terrible condition she could blitz Oro...
> 
> He didn't need to have to blitz Madara. Stop trying to twist the argument around me. You know damn well that 7th gate against JuubiMadara displayed a ridiculous speed boost.
> 
> ...



*Healthy Kimimaro's Speed & Skill Scaling*

*Hebi CS Sasuke Dodging & Outrunning Itachi's Amaterasu*


*Hebi Sasuke interrupting Itachi's Handseals(They're godly fast)*


*Sasuke's Databook Stats*
Nin: 5
Tai: 3.5
Gen: 4
Int: 3.5
Str: 3.5
Spd: 4.5
Stm: 3.5
Seals: 4
Total: 31.5

*Kimimaro's Databook Stats*
Nin: 4
Tai: 5
Gen: 3
Int: 3.5
Str: 3
Spd: 4.5
Stm: 4.5
Seals: 3
Total: 30.5

*The Equal Boost in Curse Seals*


*Kimimaro never shown himself 100% in Part 1*


As you can see that if Kimimaro was healthy as he once was according to Kabuto, Orochimaru and Juugo his power should indeed be scaled to around Hebi Level Sasuke as far as physical attributes go. He should also receive the similar boost to his stats as Sasuke since they both have the same power in their curse seals. Not to mention that the battle senses of the curse seal gives sharingan-like battle precog according to sasuke at VOTE.

*Cursed Seal has Sharingan-like precog for battle senses*


So if both sasuke have the same stats. The Same level of curse seal stat boost. Then their physical states should be identical when it comes to power scaling. Especially when you add the fact that both Sasuke and Kimimaro have trained under the same master. We saw how powerful Sasuke was at CQC when he was Hebi. Imagine if Sasuke had a kekkei that is more suited for CQC dominance like Kimimaro's is. You could argue that at the 3 tomoe level that kimimaro is indeed superior to sasuke in the field of direct combat outside of genjutsu.

I know the argument of some people might say that Kimimaro was not able to adapt fully to curse seal. When really that was a consequence of being on the verge of death. We have seen this before that when your on the verge of dying it becomes harder to control your power as we seen with danzo and hashirama cells backfired on him. But we have Juugo who have witnessed Hebi Sasuke in action aswell as kimimaro with the curse seal stat that Both hebi sasuke and Kimimaro were on the same caliber as well as the ability to control the curse seal.

*Hebi Sasuke & Kimimaro the same calibar*


So if Kimimaro physical ability and control of curse seal when he is healthy is on par with Hebi Sasuke's the same Sasuke the manage to dodge amaterasu and out run it. A Competitive feat thats on par with V2 Raikage dodging Amaterasu from a slower Sasuke. So given all this information its fair to assume that Healthy kimimaro's peak speed is on the same tier as Hebi Sasuke and V2Raikage. Which should AT THE VERY LEAST make it so that he does not get blitzed in this match up against the Raikage. Combine that with the durability and offensive and defensive capabilities of kimimaro kekkei genkai his own battle senses that are augemented by the curse seal(Thats equally powerful to Sasuke's) then its clear to see That Kimimaro can hang in there with the current Kages at the very least. No one is making it out that Kimimaro can stomp or take down Hashirama or tobirama and madara. But you are indeed making it seems like Kimimaro isnt a kage level threat especially when healthy.


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## Csdabest (May 2, 2014)

*Kimimaro's Durability, Strength, & Piercing Power*
As far as durability goes. Kimimaro and the Raikages are virtually the same. Kimimaro skeletal frame and bones can be laced under his skin and are recorded as being stronger than Steel. Raikages is stated to have Steel like skin and iron like body. Both Kimimaro and the Raikages "hyped" durability are in the same league despite kimimaro having strong than steel bones while they have only steel and iron like body. Not to mention Kimimaro has tanked some of the most lethal attacks in the manga Kimimaro durability 

*The Scale and force in which Kimimaro Tanks w/ Ease*

_-Not only did he tanked but he muscled through it and broke through all of that by running_


*Spoiler*: __ 



Able to Pierce through the hardest mineral in the earth



_-Not to mention under Kimimar's force alone he was able to crack a substance that is harder than the strongest solid steel there is. The striking force he emitted was enough to shatter it to tiny pieces. _

Last time I checked Diamond is harder than Steel and Iron. Meaning that Kimimaro spear can pierce through the Raikages body which is only as strong as Iron and steel


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## Deadway (May 2, 2014)

"Last time I checked Diamond is harder than Steel and Iron. Meaning that Kimimaro spear can pierce through the Raikages body which is only as strong as Iron and steel "

That's IF he can even touch him. This guy dodged 2 blindsided FRS shots from Naruto, and FRS is leagues above Kimi's movement speed and striking speed. Not to mention Raikage also still has his lightning shroud on, which Sasuke couldn't get through. 

Kimi can't react to this guy, or defend himself from being absolutely destroyed.


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## ueharakk (May 2, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> *Kimimaro's Durability, Strength, & Piercing Power*
> As far as durability goes. Kimimaro and the Raikages are virtually the same. Kimimaro skeletal frame and bones can be laced under his skin and are recorded as being stronger than Steel. Raikages is stated to have Steel like skin and iron like body. Both Kimimaro and the Raikages "hyped" durability are in the same league despite kimimaro having strong than steel bones while they have only steel and iron like body. Not to mention Kimimaro has tanked some of the most lethal attacks in the manga Kimimaro durability


I've refuted this time and time again.  

Sandaime raikage's body isn't literally as durable as steel, it's magnitudes more durable since even normal rasengans easily destroy substances 3 times more durable than steel.  

Add the fact that his RnY shroud adds so much durability that the sasuke's raiton sword can't even touch Ei through the shroud despite samurai swords cutting through kimi's bones, and Sandaime with RnY activated is undoubtedly far more durable than steel.

Hype-wise, kimimaro's bones weren't stated in the manga to be as durable as steel, it's only in the databook, and in general the databook gives techniques the bolstered hype.  Hype-wise Sandaime raikage's durability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kimimaro's durabiltiy considering he's hyped as having a body that can withstand any attack and his body is called the strongest shield.



Csdabest said:


> *The Scale and force in which Kimimaro Tanks w/ Ease*
> 
> _-Not only did he tanked but he muscled through it and broke through all of that by running_


that's just a sand wave, and kimimaro isn't getting hit with anything near the total force of that.  

And that's absolutely nothing compared to what Sandaime raikage survived.  He took a direct hit from FRS, the same attack that *fills half the chibaku tensei crate with its explosion*, the same attack that damaged kurama more than 25 SM Chou oodama rasengans, each stated by databook to be able to hollow out a mountain.  Since you like to bring up the databook so much, the databook states that no one can survive a direct hit from naruto's 50% FRS, and says that a completely FRS will possess destructive power unimaginable.  That means kimimaro dies to a normal 50% FRS and gets vaporized by the one that hit sandaime raikage.  



Csdabest said:


> [
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Correction, it's hardest MINERALS, and in the context of the statement gaara was reffering to the immediate earth, not literally the entire earth.



Csdabest said:


> _-Not to mention under Kimimar's force alone he was able to crack a substance that is harder than the strongest solid steel there is. The striking force he emitted was enough to shatter it to tiny pieces. _


Its funny how the manga calls that the strongest spear and shield, yet 300+ chapters later, that title is relinquished to Sandaime raikage's body and spear.  



Csdabest said:


> Last time I checked Diamond is harder than Steel and Iron. Meaning that Kimimaro spear can pierce through the Raikages body which is only as strong as Iron and steel


That's ridiculously false.  

Sandaime raikage's body is far beyond the durability of steel.  The only way you can assert otherwise is if you completely ignore every thing about him except that one statement.  

Then there's the fact that he's got his RnY up which easily deflects attacks that have cut through Kimimaro's bones.

Hardest minerals in the immediate earth =/= Diamond  striking force that shatters steel hardly means anything when deva path can snap substances 3 times more durable than steel and Ei can shatter small ribcage susanoo with his strikes.

When are you going to start debating with integrity?  You make sasuke fans look bad with your constant double standard analysis where you give the character you like the massive overwhelming benefit of the doubt while on the otherhand you evaluate the other character by their absolute lower limits and ignore anything that easily falsifies them.


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## Csdabest (May 2, 2014)

Deadway said:


> "Last time I checked Diamond is harder than Steel and Iron. Meaning that Kimimaro spear can pierce through the Raikages body which is only as strong as Iron and steel "
> 
> That's IF he can even touch him. This guy dodged 2 blindsided FRS shots from Naruto, and FRS is leagues above Kimi's movement speed and striking speed. Not to mention Raikage also still has his lightning shroud on, which Sasuke couldn't get through.
> 
> Kimi can't react to this guy, or defend himself from being absolutely destroyed.




*Spoiler*: __ 






> Likes boss said:
> 
> 
> > That's exactly my point ? Oro watched her get up like 3 times, and even in that terrible condition she could blitz Oro...
> ...






Kimimaro is boss status not to mention he was capable of dodging Gaara sand from all angles effortlessly. Kimimaro is an animal that was moving at the speed and velocity to ripped through Gaara sea of sand. Healthy Kimimaro physical ability should be ranked right around Hebi Sasuke.


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## Csdabest (May 2, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> I've refuted this time and time again.
> 
> Sandaime raikage's body isn't literally as durable as steel, it's magnitudes more durable since even normal rasengans easily destroy substances 3 times more durable than steel.
> 
> ...



So what your basically saying is that your disagreeing with what is being presented on panel. The Raikages bodies were stated to be like Iron and Steel.  Why would you think their body is stronger than that. Because that was not said. Only Kimimaros bones in this situation has been stated to being stronger than steel. Which is why Orochimaru after all his research said that Kimimaro clans had the potential to have the most powerful and strongest bodies that he has ever come across to the point it made the hairs stand on the back of his neck. Even in the face of the Uchiha clan powers that were at his door step he still preferred kimimaros abilities over the Uchihas.

Just shut up already. You not even coming at me with any manga evidence your just denying it because you don't like the truth. Both the manga and databook have both stated the generated Kimimaro bones were stronger than the hardest steel. I have shown you this multiple times across two different threads.


Post some panels that say that Raikages bodies are stronger than iron and steel. Post their durability claims that back up your argument. I have posted enough panels stating kimimaro durability and showcasing it off only for you to downplay it. No one isnt even stating that kimimaro SHITS on their durability. Im saying they are on par with one another.  Especially since their hype correlates to virutally the same thing.(Thought kimimaro's is indeed better) The Raikages bodies havent even been through what Kimimaro have been through besides the Lightning transfer jutsu. But we saw the damage to Tsunade and it didnt look that extensive in the first place. Kimimaro has shown better durability feats on panel. The best kimimaro durability feat>>>The best Raikage durability feat. Outside of hype. But I am willing to say they are on par while your trying to speak in absolutes without posting a single panel. 

*Come back when you have manga panels to support your claims. Panels that directly impact the argument that is. No round about bullshit that LOSELY LOSELY connects to it.*.


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## ueharakk (May 2, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> So what your basically saying is that your disagreeing with what is being presented on panel. The Raikages bodies were stated to be like Iron and Steel.  Why would you think their body is stronger than that. Because that was not said.


Because despite that his body was described as "flesh LIKE steel, and blood LIKE iron", we have an overwhelming amount of evidence that occured on panel that suggests their bodies are magnitudes more durable than literal steel which would make mabui's statement to be taken as a simile, not literally.





Csdabest said:


> Only Kimimaros bones in this situation has been stated to being stronger than steel. Which is why Orochimaru after all his research said that Kimimaro clans had the potential to have the most powerful and strongest bodies that he has ever come across to the point it made the hairs stand on the back of his neck. Even in the face of the Uchiha clan powers that were at his door step he still preferred kimimaros abilities over the Uchihas.


Yet despite that hype, kimimaro still dodges kid lee's kicks, still needs to activate CS in order to survive gaara's sand coffin, and at the time of the statement, not even Ei had been introduced into the manga, it's a statement on par with only a sannin can defeat another sannin or an uchiha can defeat itachi.

When orochimaru was talking about the clan having the strongest bodies, he was comparing it to entire clans, obviously not comparing every member of the clan to every member that he has intel on.  Not only that but Sandaime raikage wasn't introduced into the story yet as well as everyone in part 2.




Csdabest said:


> *Just shut up already. *You not even coming at me with any manga evidence your just denying it because you don't like the truth. Both the manga and databook have both stated the generated Kimimaro bones were stronger than the hardest steel. I have shown you this multiple times across two different threads.


Concession accepted.  

I've never disputed kimimaro's bones being stronger than the hardest steel.  What's disputed is sandaime raikage's durability being literally only on the level of steel when every feat he has falsifies that.



Csdabest said:


> Post some panels that say that Raikages bodies are stronger than iron and steel. Post their durability claims that back up your argument.


I DID!!!!!

I showed u that rasengans tear up objects that are THREE TIMES MORE DURABLE THAN STEEL!!!

I showed you how a blade that can cut diamond can't even hurt KN4 Naruto. 

*I've showed you that raiton swords that easily cut through steel can't even touch the raikages through their cloaks.*



Csdabest said:


> I have posted enough panels stating kimimaro durability and showcasing it off only for you to downplay it. No one isnt even stating that kimimaro SHITS on their durability. Im saying they are on par with one another.  Especially since their hype correlates to virutally the same thing.(Thought kimimaro's is indeed better) *The Raikages bodies havent even been through what Kimimaro have been through besides the Lightning transfer jutsu.* But we saw the damage to Tsunade and it didnt look that extensive in the first place. Kimimaro has shown better durability feats on panel. The best kimimaro durability feat>>>The best Raikage durability feat. Outside of hype. But I am willing to say they are on par while your trying to speak in absolutes without posting a single panel.


I'm not downplaying kimimaro's durability in the least, in fact I agree with the claims about his durability in regards to steel.  Also, can you show me in the manga where it says his bones are harder than steel?

However you are massively and blatantly downplaying Sandaime raikage's durability.  You should be negged into the red for the bolded as Sandaime raikge's body took a direct shot from FRS which is magnitudes beyond magnitudes more powerful than anything kimimaro has every taken on panel.



Csdabest said:


> *Come back when you have manga panels to support your claims. Panels that directly impact the argument that is. No round about bullshit that LOSELY LOSELY connects to it.*.


Um, you see those underlined red texts in my posts.  Those are called 'hyperlinks'.  When you click on hyperlinks, it takes you to a page that displays the manga page that my text refers to.

Debate honestly and don't waste my time.  Your posts are literal examples of unadulterated bias.  Give Sandaime raikage the same massive benefit of the doubt you give kimi, and his durability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kimi's since it was stated that no one can survive a 50% FRS and it was stated that a complete FRS has unimaginable destructive power, thus Sandaime raikage > completed FRS >>>>>>>>>> 50% FRS > Kimi.


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## FlamingRain (May 2, 2014)

People are misinterpreting similes by taking them literally. They're just saying Raikage's really tough; in the Viz all Mabui says is that the Third Raikage had an extra tough physique, without mentioning steel or iron.

Physical steel is way less durable than Raikage as seen in him surviving attacks that would completely demolish the material.



Rocky said:


> Tsunade didn't speed blitz Orochimaru. She got up and punched him the face, which he couldn't block for obvious reasons.



To deck him she would have had to actually get her body over to where he was first, which would require speed. If she weren't faster than Orochimaru himself then he could have simply moved out of the way, but he didn't.



> If she was fast enough to speed blitz him, she would've done so at the beginning of the fight, and she would've blitzed Kabuto too, who is slower than Orochimaru. Instead, she struggled to hit Kabuto...



The distance was significantly longer at the beginning, and it was actually only after Tsunade entered free-fall that they escaped.

Roided up Kabuto struggled to hit out-of-breath Tsunade too until she was left hovering by her sideways kick, and even then he still got tagged in the process of actually touching her. I'm also not sure what establishes that Kabuto is slower than Orochimaru when taking into account Chakra intensive movements.


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## Cord (May 2, 2014)

I've always had a high opinion of Kimimaro. But even then, I wouldn't go as far as thinking that he'd beat someone like the Sandaime Raikage. The Sandaime Raikage failing to defeat KCM Naruto while Kimimaro, off-paneling a clone of him is not going to justify the latter overcoming the Sandaime. While that was an impressive display on Kimimaro's part, that was still merely a skirmish. We have no way of knowing if he can replicate that when we hadn't seen them fight in a full-scale battle.

Furthermore, there is nothing in Kimimaro's arsenal that can bypass the Sandaime's Raiton no Yoroi, not even Sawarabi no Mai. Whereas the latter, with his reputation as the one of the fastest characters in the series, has the means to out-speed Kimimaro and overpower his Shikotsumyaku, seeing that it is vulnerable to piercing attacks. If Sasuke's Susanoo sword can cut through those like a butter, Sandaime's Jigokuzuki is going to be as capable against a lesser, weaker version. 

There's simply no way for the young shinobi to defeat the Raikage. He's simply too fast, too durable and difficult to kill. More importantly, has a superior portrayal.


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## trance (May 2, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> *Kimimaro's Durability, Strength, & Piercing Power*
> As far as durability goes. Kimimaro and the Raikages are virtually the same. Kimimaro skeletal frame and bones can be laced under his skin and are recorded as being stronger than Steel. Raikages is stated to have Steel like skin and iron like body. Both Kimimaro and the Raikages "hyped" durability are in the same league despite kimimaro having strong than steel bones while they have only steel and iron like body. Not to mention Kimimaro has tanked some of the most lethal attacks in the manga Kimimaro durability
> 
> *The Scale and force in which Kimimaro Tanks w/ Ease*
> ...



Do you honestly not know what hyperbole is?


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## Veracity (May 2, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> *Kimimaro's Durability, Strength, & Piercing Power*
> As far as durability goes. Kimimaro and the Raikages are virtually the same. Kimimaro skeletal frame and bones can be laced under his skin and are recorded as being stronger than Steel. Raikages is stated to have Steel like skin and iron like body. Both Kimimaro and the Raikages "hyped" durability are in the same league despite kimimaro having strong than steel bones while they have only steel and iron like body. Not to mention Kimimaro has tanked some of the most lethal attacks in the manga Kimimaro durability
> 
> *The Scale and force in which Kimimaro Tanks w/ Ease*
> ...



Since you claim Itachis Amaterasu is as fast as Sasukes, you have to prove that his Amaterasu is. The burden of Proof is on you, so prove it. You also, have to prove that an Amaterasu wave is as fast as a small Amaterasu ball.

Let us also also look at this feat again. Sasuke uses his Sharingan in the panel before to predict Itachis movements, and moves BEFORE he uses Amaterasu: *all the damage previously done to his ribcage is gone in addition to a more powerful version of susanoo surrounding him when he levels his susanoo up.*

He also didn't dodge such as he was caught a few panels later: *all the damage previously done to his ribcage is gone in addition to a more powerful version of susanoo surrounding him when he levels his susanoo up.*

Sasuke interrupts handseals because he has the Sharinagn.... Something Kimmi doesn't have... And PTS Kakashi could do so against a faster Itachi, so what's your point ?

DB stats are already inconsistent. I've proven this a ridiculous amount of times.

Shikamaru:
Speed: 2.5
Taijustu: 2

Kakuzu:
Speed: 4
Taijustu: 4 
Yet this happened: *all the damage previously done to his ribcage is gone in addition to a more powerful version of susanoo surrounding him when he levels his susanoo up.*

Tsunade 
Speed: 3.5

Shizune
Speed: 4

Oro
Speed: 4.5
Yet this happened: *all the damage previously done to his ribcage is gone in addition to a more powerful version of susanoo surrounding him when he levels his susanoo up.*
*all the damage previously done to his ribcage is gone in addition to a more powerful version of susanoo surrounding him when he levels his susanoo up.*

I can even provide more examples but you get it.

I already explained to you many times that Kimmis illness is over exaggerated. He would have been stronger when healthy ( obvious enough) but not enough to close the ridiculous gap between sick Kimmi and current Tsuande.

When did Sasuke say curse seal allowed him to anticipate attacks ? And you still have yet to give me the scan that means that Hebi Sasuke= Kimmi.

What ? He could read Naruto's movements because of Sharingan and compared it to the curse seal , because the curse seal allows him to move faster . That's why he specifically said body . In no way does curse seal = pre cognition .

Finally you provided the scan. And this is actually where you are wrong also. When Jugo stated such he had no indication of Sasukes power at all. Sasuke merely had powered up to block a full throttle point blank punch from Jugo: *all the damage previously done to his ribcage is gone in addition to a more powerful version of susanoo surrounding him when he levels his susanoo up.*

Then Jugo said that finally someone was on Kimmi level without knowing anything about Sasuke at all. This must mean that he was merely taking into account his curse mark skill.

On top of this, Kishi makes it EXTREMELY evident that Sasuke is far above Kimmis level by Sasuke saying he could kill both Suigestu and Jugo, and by him restraining both Jugo and Suigestu At once in base casually: *all the damage previously done to his ribcage is gone in addition to a more powerful version of susanoo surrounding him when he levels his susanoo up.*
It's also to note how young Jugo was whenever he battled Kimmi in the past...

So Sasuke> Kimmi by implication considering Sasuke can beat both Jugo and Suigestu at the same time, and Jugo merely compared Sasuke after seeing him catch his punch.

Raikage's durabilty isn't literally like steel it's suppose to be a form of an exaggeration( considering how normally hard skin is). It's like calling superman the man of steel despite his chest being able to withstand planet busting attacks...

A lighting enhanced katana bounced off of Ay's chest and a Resengan can destroy pains chakra rods( while a resengan barely makes a scratch on Raikage) and they are 3 times as hard as steel. Sandaime>>>>>>> Ay in durabilty. So that just destroys your entire steel argument. 

Blocking a wave of sand like that isn't impressive in a manga, especially when durabilty less Sakura can tank grenade like attacks.

Pierce through  hardest material ? Show me a feat to suggest Gaara actually used Diamond( like he could even find diamond in that area). Just because Gaara said so doesn't mean it's true. The same applies to Jirayia saying Tsuande is unparalleled in combat.


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## trance (May 2, 2014)

As a reference, Enma can transform into a "diamond" hard staff. Orochimaru's Kusanagi can damage him yet failed miserably when he tried to pierce KN4 Naruto with it. It didn't even pierce his skin. FRS has immensely more cutting potency yet Raikagenaut tanked it with almost zero injuries. So, the whole "hard as diamond" thing is hyperbole.


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## IchLiebe (May 3, 2014)

Sasuke's sword hasn't shown Kusanagi properties. Also Bee took a straight up chidori to the chest and just raiton flowed it through out him.


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## Lurko (May 3, 2014)

Five pages people....


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## Ashi (May 3, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Sasuke's sword hasn't shown Kusanagi properties. Also Bee took a straight up chidori to the chest and just raiton flowed it through out him.



That's cause sasuke used it shock him


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## ATastyMuffin (May 3, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Last time I checked Diamond is harder than Steel and Iron. Meaning that Kimimaro spear can pierce through the Raikages body which is only as strong as Iron and steel



HAHAHAHAHA.

Okay, genius, if the Raikage's body is _'only as strong as iron and steel'_, I'm guessing you also believe any human-sized object made of steel can survive a *Wind Style: Rasenshuriken* without _any_ drawbacks at all?

Even though it's capable of pulverizing a crater this large, in a premature version? Even though it packs enough raw energy in an explosive state to envelop over half a crater the size of a mountain range?

Even though it's undoubtedly *MILES* above a Sage Art: Massive Rasengan (hyped to destroy entire mountains), which is stronger than Base Naruto's Giant Rasengan (tearing up the environment upon just impacting Yuura), which is stronger than pre-timeskip Naruto's Base Rasengan that was equal to Sasuke's Chidori, which had enough penetrating power to completely overwhelm pre-timeskip Gaara's layered sand shield, which is likely much more powerful than said Gaara's casually formed shield which easily blocked the Rain Genin's needles that were...

capable of penetrating five millimeters of steel?! Are you serious? By your brilliant logic, a Rain Genin's technique is superior to the (at the time) strongest attack from *Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto*.

Just one more point to destroy your case altogether: Rasenshuriken had the freakin' Nine-Tails sprawling and howling in pain. On the contrary, the Third wasn't even fazed. If you think the strongest Tailed Beast is less durable than fucking steel, no one should be expecting even the remotest of rational debate with you.

Get a clue.


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## IchLiebe (May 4, 2014)

^Temari's attack got through and even cut his body.

FRS isn't meant to cut someone in half its to cut the chakra threads, if the Raikage wasn't edo he wouldn't be able to use ninjutsu any more.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 4, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> ^Temari's attack got through and even cut his body.



Csdabest was talking the Third *with* his Lightning Shroud activated.

Temari only hurt the Raikage when he was entirely defenseless.



> FRS isn't meant to cut someone in half its to cut the chakra threads, *if the Raikage wasn't edo he wouldn't be able to use ninjutsu any more*.



Prove this.


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## Stermor (May 6, 2014)

is this really a match? 3rd raikage can literly sleep through this match and win. 

oh well i'm always up for a rape match with kimimaro. since the 3rd should have no problems ripping kimi's bones out of his body. and sticking them back in the other way arround..


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## KeyofMiracles (May 6, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> ^Temari's attack got through and even cut his body.
> 
> FRS isn't meant to cut someone in half its to cut the chakra threads, if the Raikage wasn't edo he wouldn't be able to use ninjutsu any more.



How is it going to sever his chakra network when it can't even get past his skin?


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## ShadowReaper (May 6, 2014)

Lol thread. 

3-rd Raikage without using his Nukite would still completely stomp him.


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