# Jiraiya's "imperfect" SM argument in the NBD



## Serene Grace (Feb 28, 2018)

I've come across this infamous statement a few times. Usually used to downplay Jiraiya or SM to a different level or trying so hard to separate SM into two forms(imperfect and perfect), when in reality it's simply a matter of attaining SM and not.

Constantly seeing these statement or arguments gave me the inspiration to make this thread, basically an attempt to help people better understand the "imperfect and perfect sm fallacy.

Well lets beginning with the infamous statement made by Pa

1. In a lot of translations, Pa said was something along the lines of Naruto being a true sage, sadly this was a mistranslation.

What Pa actually said was
*Spoiler*: __ 







> He's displayin' the rings around his eyes-proof of successful sagehood






Never once did Pa make a distinction between Naruto's and Jiraiya's SM, in fact, he explicitly puts emphasis on the fact that Naruto was able to obtain the* rings around his eyes *after successfully balancing his chakra, which implies that's what dictates whether some has achieved _true sagehood _or not. The same exact eye markings appear during Jiraiya's sage transformation. The only time an actual distinction was made when Kabuto compared his "sagehood" in contrast to Orochimaru

2. What actually determines what an "imperfect sage and a perfect sage" is

A lot of people believe that what determines a perfect sage is perfectly balancing all the energies and retaining no frog features. Sadly this is wrong, in fact, it directly contradicts the manga..

ii) Going by this definition of a perfect sage, Minato would constitute as one as well, as he retains no frog features after balancing his energies... 
*Spoiler*: __ 









Well, I find this funny because it was _Jiraiya_ who was considered a milestone for Naruto to surpass in terms of SM, not Minato. How could this be if Minato is supposedly a _perfect sage_, while Jiraiya is imperfect?

ii) Going by this same definition, highlighted in the manga, Kabuto would constitute as an imperfect sage as well since he retained animal appearances after performing his sage transformation as evidenced with his horns. Waaaaait is this not the *same* Kabuto that literally established his SM as perfect?

iii)  The manga actually gave us a definition of what dictates what a perfect or imperfect sage is.


*Spoiler*: __ 









According to Kabuto's words, what actually determines whether one is a perfect sage is if they can:

use senjutsu chakra
activate sage transformation

What we can get from Kabuto's statement is ...


Kabuto is without a doubt a "perfect" sage
Orochimaru is a sage, however not a perfect one like Kabuto
The qualification should be made between "can utilize senjutsu chakra" (a sage) and "can actuate the sage transformation"
TLDR; The entire perfect sage and imperfect sage thing depended on a mistranslation of Fukasaku's words, who, never originally made a distinction between said any kind of effect amongst Jiraiya and Naruto's SM. He both called them sages and said they possessed the eye markings of a sage. Kabuto, be that as it may, utilized "perfect sage" to remove himself from Orochimaru, who couldn't utilize sage mode.

In view of that, a perfect sage is somebody who utilizes sage mode. There are requirements to accomplish sage mode and if you happen to you meet them, you are a sage. If not, you're not a sage. So, yes Minato, Jiraiya, Naruto, Hahsirama, and anybody who has obtained SM for that matter is a "perfect" sage, well by the manga's definition at least

All creeds to @Seelentau I would not have known any of this if I did not read his "misconceptions thread". Thank you a lot, man 

Now lets discuss, tell me what you guys think

Reactions: Like 12 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Informative 2 | Dislike 1


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## Trojan (Feb 28, 2018)

1- even if there is a perfect/imperfect SM, it does not really matter as we don't know how big the difference really is.
2- If anything, Kabuto is more "imperfect" SM user since just like Jiraiya, his physical appearance change drastically and he becomes like a snake. Unlike Naruto and Hashirama.
3- Even if Kishi intended Kabuto to be a perfect SM, I think this got retconned or will get retconned in favor of Mitsuki being the perfect SM user.

All in all, Jiraiya was unlucky because Kishi compared him directly to itachi on a favorable term. When itachi is a fan-favorite. Jman getting downplayed is predictable since itachi's fanbase is very big, and he needs to be put down in order to make itachi looks better.

Same thing we are seeing with Kisame now after he collected some fans, they started to put Jman down so Kisame can look better.

It's a lost case. :V

Reactions: Like 3


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## Kai (Feb 28, 2018)

There's no downplay involved I assure you.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 5 | Informative 1


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## oiety (Feb 28, 2018)

Makes sense to me, great post.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Serene Grace (Feb 28, 2018)

Can you show me where he calls Jiraiya's SM imperfect? You can't because he never did, if anything his statement of Naruto obtaining the rings around his eyes implies that's what determines true or perfect sagehood. Kabuto statement agrees with this even more, as Orochimaru not being able to use the sage transformation(enter SM, or acquire the rings around his eyes) was what was used by Kabuto distinguish himself from Orochimaru as perfect.

You're missing the point. I'm not saying Jiraiya's SM is superior to Naruto's it clearly isn't. Though Naruto's superiority isnt so large to the point where his and Jiraiya's SM are separated into two different levels of modes, that's where the headcanon comes in.

Same goes for Minato. He achieved true sagehood despite what many people wanna believe, manga directly agrees with this.


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## Hi no Ishi (Feb 28, 2018)

But but but.... Jiraiya couldnt sense Pain!
(A dude who can hide his chakra from Naruto and top class sensors like Ino's dad and the Konoha unit)

OT:
Also Jugo is a sage in the DB which somewhat makes sense.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Serene Grace (Feb 28, 2018)

Hussain said:


> 1- even if there is a perfect/imperfect SM, it does not really matter as we don't know how big the difference really is.
> 2- If anything, Kabuto is more "imperfect" SM user since just like Jiraiya, his physical appearance change drastically and he becomes like a snake. Unlike Naruto and Hashirama.
> 3- Even if Kishi intended Kabuto to be a perfect SM, I think this got retconned or will get retconned in favor of Mitsuki being the perfect SM user.
> 
> ...


You reminded me

I have to add these to the op, forgot about these


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## Kai (Feb 28, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> I'm not saying Jiraiya's SM is superior to Naruto's it clearly isn't. Though Naruto's superiority isnt so large to the point where his and Jiraiya's SM are separated into two different levels of modes, that's where the headcanon comes in.


I'm not either as Fuku clearly states Jiraiya was one of the best at it, but even he was unable to completely master it (i.e striking the perfect balance between physical, mental, and natural energies). 

As for Kabuto he artificially ingrained many DNA modifications that already altered his appearance, including Jugo's DNA which passively allows him to absorb natural energy indefinitely. He could very well simply be one of the best at utilizing Sage Mode just like Jiraiya.


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## Serene Grace (Feb 28, 2018)

Kai said:


> I'm not either as Fuku clearly states Jiraiya was one of the best at it, but even he was unable to completely master it (i.e striking the perfect balance between physical, mental, and natural energies).


The context Pa was referring to was Jiraiya's inability to balance the energies perfectly, which at worst points to the obvious which was Naruto's superiority over Jiraiya in regards to senjutsu.

I reiterate im not necessarily saying that Jiraiya is superior to Naruto in regards to senjutsu, just that disparity between them isn't as large as people try to convey, especially going to the lengths of treating their SM's as two separate modes.



Kai said:


> As for Kabuto he artificially ingrained many DNA modifications that already altered his appearance


Yes that's true, but he still gained animal features from his SM hence why he obtained horns after completing the transformation.



Kai said:


> He could very well simply be one of the best at utilizing Sage Mode just like Jiraiya.


I agree he is the one of the best at it

thing is when we use the animal features argument as a means to differentiate between peoples SM, you basically establish Kabuto as an imperfect sage, and Minato as a perfect one. I think you can see the error in that line of thinking as the former was established as perfect while the latter wasn't considered to be the sage to surpass, but instead it was an "imperfect sage"(Jiraiya).

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Blu-ray (Feb 28, 2018)

Sorry bruv. Lynch me if you want to, but it's absolutely absurd to think that there's absolutely *no* difference between a mastered and unmastered Sage Mode bar cosmetic changes, and absolutely nowhere implies this is the case. lt only ever implied the opposite since it portrayed Naruto's mastery as the moment he surpassed his predecessors. It would not be given that he was weaker than Jiraiya if we subtract SM from both.



Kai said:


> There's no downplay involved I assure you.


And there we go.



Serene Grace said:


> Can you show me where he calls Jiraiya's SM imperfect? You can't because he never did, if anything


That panel said just that, unless you're going to get hang up on semantics, (which this entire thread seems to hinge on tbh.) He didn't master it, ergo it was imperfect. It's literally a different way of saying the same thing.



Hussain said:


> If anything, Kabuto is more "imperfect" SM user since just like Jiraiya, his physical appearance change drastically and he becomes like a snake. Unlike Naruto and Hashirama.



C'mon know Hussain. The dude's true form even* without* invoking Sage Mode, Unless Jiraiya's really half frog then they aren't comparable.



Hi no Ishi said:


> (A dude who can hide his chakra from Naruto and top class sensors like Ino's dad and the Konoha unit)


What is this, defend Jiraiya with headcanon day?

Pain _cannot_ hide his chakra and we've seen evidence of this three times _at least._

When he couldn't simply walk past a barrier that sensed chakra.
When Shima recognized their chakra.
When we're told that they , which would be utterly unnecessary if Nagato could make it so they can't be sensed at all.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## Zero890 (Feb 28, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> What is this, defend Jiraiya with headcanon day?



So you're saying that Jiraiya and Naruto's teacher does not have Sensing either?


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## Serene Grace (Feb 28, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> Sorry bruv. Lynch me if you want to, but it's absolutely absurd to think that there's absolutely *no* difference between a mastered and unmastered Sage Mode bar cosmetic changes, and absolutely nowhere implies this is the case. lt only ever implied the opposite since it portrayed Naruto's mastery as the moment he surpassed his predecessors. It would not be given that he was weaker than Jiraiya if we subtract SM from both.





Serene Grace said:


> I reiterate im not necessarily saying that Jiraiya is superior to Naruto in regards to senjutsu, just that disparity between them isn't as large as people try to convey, especially going to the lengths of treating their SM's as two separate modes.






Blu-ray said:


> C'mon know Hussain. The dude's true form even* without* invoking Sage Mode, Unless Jiraiya's really half frog then they aren't comparable.


And yet he still gained horns after his SM transformation

how do you account for that?


Blu-ray said:


> That panel said just that, umless your going to get hang up on semantics, (which this entire thread seems to hinge on tbh.) He didn't master it, ergo it was imperfect. It's literally a different way of saying the same thing.





Serene Grace said:


> The context Pa was referring to was Jiraiya's inability to balance the energies perfectly, which at worst points to the obvious which was Naruto's superiority over Jiraiya in regards to senjutsu.





Serene Grace said:


> thing is when we use the animal features argument as a means to differentiate between peoples SM, you basically establish Kabuto as an imperfect sage, and Minato as a perfect one. I think you can see the error in that line of thinking as the former was established as perfect while the latter wasn't considered to be the sage to surpass, but instead, it was an "imperfect sage"(Jiraiya).



Nothing more, nothing less


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 28, 2018)

If sth is perfect then it should not have the drawbacks 
Like jiraiya needing elder toads to maintain SM 
Minato saying his SM slows him down

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Feb 28, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> Pain _cannot_ hide his chakra and we've seen evidence of this three times _at least._


On the other hand he snuck up on Three sages, two of which we know have fully mastered sage mode, an ANBU captain, and two confirmed boss bish sensors, and Jonin in the damn Manji formation.

Nor could they sense him in the chamealion, both in Amegakure and in the War 

Naruto also had to stab himself to find them but that might be because of Konans camouflage 

So there is bunch more evidence that he can sometimes just not be found.


Blu-ray said:


> When he couldn't simply walk past a barrier that sensed chakra


He used that barrier against Koonoha remember? To fool them as to his numbers, a thing that would not work unless he could hide the bodies signature once inside.


Blu-ray said:


> When Shima recognized their chakra.


Right sometimes she can sense him sometimes not. It's not like he does not have a signature at all or something.


Blu-ray said:


> When we're told that they , which would be utterly unnecessary if Nagato could make it so they can't be sensed at all.


 or this dude is overly cautious and has backup plans like we know he is.


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## Sapherosth (Feb 28, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> And yet he still gained horns after his SM transformation
> 
> how do you account for that?
> 
> ...




Gaining horns could just be a standard feature of a snake SM user. Unless we see other Snake SM user without horns, it's pretty much standard for now.

After all, snake and toad SM's aren't identical.


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## hysoka uchiha (Mar 1, 2018)

The_Conqueror said:


> If sth is perfect then it should not have the drawbacks
> Like jiraiya needing elder toads to maintain SM
> Minato saying his SM slows him down



Jiraiya needed the toads cause of the 5 min of inmobility, Naruto also needed them for the same reason but Kyuubi did not allow the fusion, and when the toad entourage got to Konoha Naruto had passed the initial stage.

To me before the war there was not much difference, Jiraiya never dreamt of using up all of that chacra in a single fight and Naruto wasted it in 2 FRS, his clones were limited and he was help by a whole toad entorage, before the war his greatest difference with his master was the throwable Rasen Shuriken, But the sannin had an arsenal comprised of two elements and the genjutsu song. they even shared the mega rassengan.

Before the wacky war the difference besides aesthetics was meagre to none.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Mar 1, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Never once did Pa make a distinction between Naruto's and Jiraiya's SM, in fact, he explicitly puts emphasis on the fact that Naruto was able to obtain the* rings around his eyes *after successfully balancing his chakra, which implies that's what dictates whether some has achieved _true sagehood _or not. The same exact eye markings appear during Jiraiya's sage transformation. The only time an actual distinction was made when Kabuto compared his "sagehood" in contrast to Orochimaru




You're being intellectually dishonest by ignoring Fukasaku stating that no frog features means he surpassed Jiraiya

Suggesting a difference 



Serene Grace said:


> Well, I find this funny because it was _Jiraiya_ who was considered a milestone for Naruto to surpass in terms of SM, not Minato. How could this be if Minato is supposedly a _perfect sage_, while Jiraiya is imperfect?



Because Minato never used it in combat, and had canonically lower reserves than either Jiraiya or Naruto, which means he can't maintain it for long.



Serene Grace said:


> According to Kabuto's words, what actually determines whether one is a perfect sage is if they can:
> 
> use senjutsu chakra
> activate sage transformation
> ...




The no frog features applies to frog SM only. As we saw time and time again, different SM=different features 

CS2 is essentially SM, and Sasuke mastered it totally, yet even he underwent drastic physical changes.

There's also been no other "dragon sage" besides Kabuto, so we don't know if horns and such is simply an aspect of snake SM, as we have nothing to compare it to.

There is a difference between snake SM and frog SM (as one who hasn't mastered frog SM turns into a frog etc) and the horns and features is just one of those differences.



Kai said:


> There's no downplay involved I assure you.




This panel basically solos this thread though.

Give it up @Serene Grace, there's nothing supporting your argument besides you ignoring multiple panels making it clear Jiraiya never truly mastered SM.

One of the best =/= total mastery as Fukasaku makes abundantly clear.

The difference between imperfect and perfect SM is tht 

1. Jiraiya cannot sense
2. Jiraiya does not have ghost punches.

Reactions: Like 1


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## hbcaptain (Mar 1, 2018)

According to Shima  and that's why he needs to summon the two elder sages. Thus, at best, Jiraya can only activate SM on his own after a long time gathering enough natural energy, something which is nearly impossible in an actual battle giving the fact he needs to be completly immobilized for a while doing so.

In other hands, Kabuto didn't have any trouble activating SM against Itachi&Sasuke, not only this but unlike Jiraya his SM was activated for quite a long time. Therefore, Jiraya being a better sage than him is completly ridiculous, especially when we know that his Sage perception allows him to dodge both Itachi&EMS Sasuke's attacks simultaneously, something SM Jiraya, obivously, can't achieve by himself since this version of Sasuke was already equal to KCM Naruto in overall strengh, and he has Itachi's support on top of that, the same Itachi who has laso a strengh that's equal to EMS Sasuke (Kabuto fight) according to the 4th Databook.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Troyse22 (Mar 1, 2018)

Jiraiya never mastered SM 

"Show me where he says it isn't perfect"


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## Architect (Mar 1, 2018)

On the viz translation you provided Fukasaku explicitly stated that for a Frog Sage Mode the lack of frog aspects is the indication of a frog sage state superior to Jiraiya's, lol.
And why did you even mess frog sage mode with a snake sage transformation, compparing those two?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 1, 2018)

I think a Perfect Sage is someone who can balance their nature energy properly. Kabuto was in over his head on that one. 

But Jiraiya took a long time to enter Sage Mode by himself, and afterwards he needed Ma and Pa to sit on his shoulders to replenish nature chakra so that he could maintain his form. He also couldn’t get the balance of chakra correct because he underwent a toad transformation. 

In all likelihood, without Ma and Pa there to keep replenishing his reserves, Jiraiya probably couldn’t maintain his Sage Mode for much longer than Pein Arc Naruto or Minato. 

In my opinion only Post-Pein Arc Naruto had really mastered Sage Mode, because he could enter Sage Mode right away, didn’t undergo any animalistic changes and could maintain his form for quite a long time. Hashirama did too. 

Naruto/Hashirama
Kabuto
Minato
Jiraiya
Orochimaru


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## hbcaptain (Mar 1, 2018)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> But Jiraiya took a long time to enter Sage Mode by himself


He didn't activated SM by himself, he simply borrowed Pa&Ma's Senjutsu according to the 3rd Databook.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 1, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> He didn't activated SM by himself, he simply borrowed Pa&Ma's Senjutsu according to the 3rd Databook.



He hadn’t summoned Ma and Pa when he was gathering Sage energy. He summoned them to borrow their Sage Mode after he entered the form himself, so that he could stay in that form longer.


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## hbcaptain (Mar 1, 2018)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> He hadn’t summoned Ma and Pa when he was gathering Sage energy. He summoned them to borrow their Sage Mode after he entered the form himself, so that he could stay in that form longer.


He needed to gain time in order to summon Pa&Ma, which are extremely difficult to summon, not to enter SM. As stated by Shima, Jiraya has to learn how to enter SM on his own.


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## LostSelf (Mar 1, 2018)

Hussain said:


> 1- even if there is a perfect/imperfect SM, it does not really matter as we don't know how big the difference really is.



This basically.

Also, using Kabuto shouldn't much of an indication. Dragon Sage Mode can be very different for all we know. It has proven to be more powerful. Or at least, Kabuto was more powerful than Jiraiya with it.

Also, i don't see the problem. Imperfect or perfect won't change his feats and display. So why is so bad that he's called imperfect? 

Imperfect can mean he attains animal features and he can't enter instantly or by himself.. THat's it. He also didn't display sensing. But i guess it was mentioned he had it? I am a bit rusty so i don't remember many things. But Pain has shown to be good at sneaking past sensing because not only against Jiraiya, Fukusaku and Shima he did. But also against the sensing squad. So it's a possibility.

I think imperfect or not, Jiraiya will still be on the same level. It doesn't change anything.

Also, using Minato as an example shouldn't be because he was also displayed when Naruto appeared, saying Naruto surpassed him. So he was actually a benchmark and people back then thought Kishimoto meant surpassing him in power. When in reality, it was as a Sage.

Also, looks like Kishimoto was drugged when he wrote the War Arc. So that's another thing to consider.


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## Zero890 (Mar 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> 1. Jiraiya cannot sense
> 2. Jiraiya does not have ghost punches.



Oh wait, he can


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## Troyse22 (Mar 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Oh wait, he can



*scans the manga for his sensory and ghost punching feats*
*can't find any*


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 1, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> He needed to gain time in order to summon Pa&Ma, which are extremely difficult to summon, not to enter SM. As stated by Shima, Jiraya has to learn how to enter SM on his own.



No he didn’t, Ma and Pa are no different to summon than any other toad. They’re easier if anything, being so small.


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## Zero890 (Mar 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> *scans the manga for his sensory and ghost punching feats*
> *can't find any*



It is not necessary, he has these skills...

oh wait let's assume that Sasuke doesn't have Shinra Tensei, because he doesn't have feats


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## Zero890 (Mar 1, 2018)

Jiraiya could be an "imperfect sage" due to his toad appearance, but even then there is no indication that Jiraiya does not possess the skills that the Sage mode gives.


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## Troyse22 (Mar 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> It is not necessary, he has these skills...



Why?

Why does he HAVE to have them?



Zero890 said:


> oh wait let's assume that Sasuke doesn't have Shinra Tensei, because he doesn't have feats



Rinnegan have basic techniques that anyone with the eye can manipulate.

These include

Deva
Asura
Human
Animal
Naraka 
Preta

Sasuke has these based off of canon fact and indisputable facts about the Rinnegan.

Original wielders are typically granted some sort of unique ability to them, hence there being a difference between being the original wielder and someone who has the eye, which Madara and others make clear (they emphasize not letting the Rinnegan return to its original wielder since they can use its full power)

Madara gains access to Limbo, this is an ability unique to Madara, and it's his "special" tech with HIS Rinnegan
Sasuke gains access to Ameno, this is an ability unique to Sasuke, and it's his "special" tech with HIS Rinnegan

TLDR: Anyone who has Rinnegan has access to the 6POP techs
Original wielders typically receive an additional ability unique to them


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## Zero890 (Mar 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Why?
> 
> Why does he HAVE to have them?



Because there is NO INDICATION that he does not have it and the DB gives him those skills, even if you do not like it.



Troyse22 said:


> Rinnegan have basic techniques that anyone with the eye can manipulate.



Jiraiya has Sensing because it is a basic skill that Toad Sage Mode grants.


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## Troyse22 (Mar 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Because there is NO INDICATION that he does not have it



Besides not having any feats indicating he does when it would've been perfectly useful?



Zero890 said:


> the DB gives him those skills, even if you do not like it.



It's not a matter of not liking it

It's that DB is not canon

According to DB, Daikodan does exactly what Kisame says it does.

It often supports my argument, but DB is simply not canon


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## Troyse22 (Mar 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Jiraiya has Sensing because it is a basic skill that Toad Sage Mode grants.



Naruto states "Now that i've _*MASTERED*_ SM, I can sense everybodies chakra"
Jiraiya was stated to have not mastered SM.

That's where it comes from.

Jiraiya CANNOT SENSE.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## hbcaptain (Mar 1, 2018)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> No he didn’t, Ma and Pa are no different to summon than any other toad. They’re easier if anything, being so small.


size =/= difficulty to summon, Jiraya himself explained that he needs someone to gain time in order 
Also, it's impossible to move whilst gathering natural energy since balancing it with yin&Yang energies would've being nearly impossible as explained by Fukasaku, especially that Jiraya doesn't have good command over Senjutsu.


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## The_Conqueror (Mar 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Naruto states "Now that i've _*MASTERED*_ SM, I can sense everybodies chakra"
> Jiraiya was stated to have not mastered SM.
> 
> That's where it comes from.
> ...


Even fukasaku and Shima did not sense the blindside or chameleon for that matter?  So does that mean they are imperfect sage


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## Troyse22 (Mar 1, 2018)

The_Conqueror said:


> Even fukasaku and Shima did not sense the blindside or chameleon for that matter?  So does that mean they are imperfect sage



Their respective statements still hold, they were also transfering their SM chakra into Jiraiya

Deal with it, Jiraiya cannot sense according to Fukasaku and Naruto.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 1, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> size =/= difficulty to summon, Jiraya himself explained that he needs someone to gain time in order
> Also, it's impossible to move whilst gathering natural energy since balancing it with yin&Yang energies would've being nearly impossible as explained by Fukasaku, especially that Jiraya doesn't have good command over Senjutsu.



He was buying time to enter Sage Mode. He needed to summon Ma and Pa to sustain it, but he needed to enter Sage Mode first so that they could continue gathering natural energy for him. 

We saw Jiraiya using Sage Mode without Ma and Pa in a flashback, so we know he can enter it without their help.


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## The_Conqueror (Mar 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Their respective statements still hold, they were also transfering their SM chakra into Jiraiya
> 
> Deal with it, Jiraiya cannot sense according to Fukasaku and Naruto.


Lol it was clearly a shown that maa and paa could independently use their jutsu even so they can also sensing alright,  except being restricted to jiraiyas shoulder they could mould chakra and use jutsu and all. 
Fukasaku and Naruto never said jiraiya could not sense.  It's about Naruto mastering a new form and him being able to do more things like sensing than compared to his base forms.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Mar 1, 2018)

I can't believe Jiraiya's sensory abilities are still being discussed here, he can't sense.

"b....but the DB!"

Fuck your stupid non canon DB

Fukasaku states Jiraiya never mastered SM
Naruto states that he can now sense because hes mastered SM

Put two and two together and stop relying on the DB, which is worse than Anime filler because idiots actually take the DB seriously

-snip-


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## hbcaptain (Mar 1, 2018)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> We saw Jiraiya using Sage Mode without Ma and Pa in a flashback, so we know he can enter it without their help.


Myuboku Oil training. 
Also, I never stated that Jiraya can't enter SM on his own but rather he can't do it in the middle of battle since he need a lot of time to gather enough natural energy.
Also, the Databook was pretty clear, , nothing about his own SM.


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## The_Conqueror (Mar 1, 2018)

Yet fukasaku and Shima the ones who mastered the SM  could not sense the blindside or the chameleon

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Kai (Mar 1, 2018)

Godaime Tsunade said:
			
		

> We saw Jiraiya using Sage Mode without Ma and Pa in a flashback, so we know he can enter it without their help.


J-man can indeed go SM without their help, but if he can't sustain it for too long then his case becomes like Minato's. Either way if one wants to say he can sustain it longer than Minato that's fine, but not fine enough for it to be practical in battle it seems.

Entering SM by waiting for the Elder Toads was still a better route for J-man even at the expense of leaving himself and Gamaken vulnerable for a little while.


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## Zero890 (Mar 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Besides not having any feats indicating he does when it would've been perfectly useful?



Your logic indicates that neither Shima nor Fukasaku have Sensing which is illogical.



Troyse22 said:


> It's not a matter of not liking it
> 
> It's that DB is not canon
> 
> ...







Troyse22 said:


> Naruto states "Now that i've _*MASTERED*_ SM, I can sense everybodies chakra"
> Jiraiya was stated to have not mastered SM.
> 
> That's where it comes from.
> ...



It still a basic skill of Sage Mode and yes, Jiraiya has it.


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## Sapherosth (Mar 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Your logic indicates that neither Shima nor Fukasaku have Sensing which is illogical.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Who says Ma and Pa were using SM? They were serving as fuel tanks for Jiraiya by transferring him the natural energy. Chances are, the only person in SM was Jiraiya.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Troyse22 (Mar 1, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Who says Ma and Pa were using SM? They were serving as fuel tanks for Jiraiya by transferring him the natural energy. Chances are, the only person in SM was Jiraiya.



I've solod this thread and nothing more can be said.

Don't waste your time.


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## Zero890 (Mar 1, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Who says Ma and Pa were using SM? They were serving as fuel tanks for Jiraiya by transferring him the natural energy. Chances are, the only person in SM was Jiraiya.



And then how did they use Senpo techniques like Frog Song and Senpo Goemon if they were not in SM?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 3


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## Zero890 (Mar 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> I've solod this thread and nothing more can be said.
> 
> Don't waste your time.



The only thing you do is complain about the Jiraiya fans, even though they always refute your arguments

Reactions: Like 1


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## Seelentau (Mar 1, 2018)

wow, three pages because of a simple explanation lul

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Mar 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> The only thing you do is complain about the Jiraiya fans, even though they always refute your arguments



You didn't refute shit kid.

Look back at my post that you ignored, get over yourself and get over the fact that Jiraiya doesn't have sensing


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## Zero890 (Mar 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> You didn't refute shit kid.
> 
> Look back at my post that you ignored, get over yourself and get over the fact that Jiraiya doesn't have sensing



Continue with your "DB is not canon" that does not take away the fact that Jiraiya has Sensing.


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## The_Conqueror (Mar 1, 2018)

DB is not canon because jiraiya has sensing 
Pt1 is not canon because kisame is inferior to sanin

Reactions: Winner 5


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## Troyse22 (Mar 1, 2018)

DB is canon because Jiraiya can sense 

Manga isn't canon because Jiraiya can't sense


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## Zero890 (Mar 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> DB is canon because Jiraiya can sense
> 
> Manga isn't canon because Jiraiya can't sense



He did not show it = / = he can not do it, Sasuke did not show Shinra Tensei and it does not mean he can not do it, Hanzo never showed that he could "move very fast underwater" and that does not mean he can not


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## Troyse22 (Mar 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> He did not show it = / = he can not do it, Sasuke did not show Shinra Tensei and it does not mean he can not do it, Hanzo never showed that he could "move very fast underwater" and that does not mean he can not



And ur just ignoring my posts after that


Typical of Sannin wankers 

Stick your fingers in your ear deeper and scream LALALALALALALA louder, it still doesn't make you right


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## Zero890 (Mar 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> And ur just ignoring my posts after that
> 
> 
> Typical of Sannin wankers
> ...



what argument? your "DB is not canon"? ridiculous ... besides you also ignored my post so ...


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## Troyse22 (Mar 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Naruto states "Now that i've _*MASTERED*_ SM, I can sense everybodies chakra"
> Jiraiya was stated to have not mastered SM.
> 
> That's where it comes from.
> ...





Zero890 said:


> what argument? your "DB is not canon"? ridiculous ... besides you also ignored my post so ...



You lose, get over it


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## Blu-ray (Mar 1, 2018)

>Databook

Is this really a hill people wanna die on? The same Databook that says Mu can't use Water Release despite _categorising the technique he was most famous for as Water Release? _The same Databook that lists Madara as the _sole_ user of Perfect Susano'o despite covering everything up to chapter 691, where both Sasuke and Kakashi had already acquired it?

More power to ya I guess, but excuse the rest of us that don't take it as gospel.


Hi no Ishi said:


> On the other hand he snuck up on Three sages, two of which we know have fully mastered sage mode,


But they aren't constantly in Sage Mode. 



> an ANBU captain,


Was he a sensor?


> and two confirmed boss bish sensors,


You mean one, Inoichi, and his sensing is _not_ passive like Karin's or a sage's. Tobirama can tell a person's freaking genetic makeup from their chakra yet didn't know Madara was literally outside his front door.




> and Jonin in the damn Manji formation.


Were any of them sensors?



> Nor could they sense him in the chamealion, both in Amegakure and in the War


 
Which could simply be a consequence of the chameleon itself being undetectable while invisible. Or do you want to tell me Nagato can make himself immune to Naruto's negative emotion sensing too?




> Naruto also had to stab himself to find them but that might be because of Konans camouflage


But he was still _sensed. _Naruto only had to do that because of the fluctuating chakra frequency, and it would not have worked if his chakra was completely undetectable.



> So there is bunch more evidence that he can sometimes just not be found.


They don't take precedence over all the times he was sensed. If he could make himself completely undetectable, he would have done so. If we were meant to think that then Kishi would've had a character make a verbal note of it.



> He used that barrier against Koonoha remember? To fool them as to his numbers, a thing that would not work unless he could hide the bodies signature once inside.


Sneaking in undetected would've been preferable to what Pain did since they wouldn't have been alert to his invasion _at all. _Konan even brought up Itachi and Kisame doing just that only for Pain himself to accredit it to Itachi formerly being a Konoha anbu. That's him clearly saying he can't do the same.




> Right sometimes she can sense him sometimes not. It's not like he does not have a signature at all or something.


He can change his chakra signature, not make it undetectable. It's more likely that Shima and Fukasaku simply weren't actually in Sage Mode at that moment.





> or this dude is overly cautious and has backup plans like we know he is.


Changing chakra frequency is redundant if you can make it so your chakra can't be sensed to begin with. It makes no sense as a backup plan.



Zero890 said:


> Jiraiya has Sensing because it is a basic skill that Toad Sage Mode grants.


It's more like not giving Nagato Limbo just because he has Rinnegan.



Sapherosth said:


> Who says Ma and Pa were using SM? They were serving as fuel tanks for Jiraiya by transferring him the natural energy. Chances are, the only person in SM was Jiraiya.


An actually fair point. The fight was over as far as the Toad Elders knew so they had no reason to be molding more Sage Chakra at that moment on top of what Jiraiya already had.


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## Zero890 (Mar 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> You lose, get over it





Zero890 said:


> It still a basic skill of Sage Mode and yes, Jiraiya has it.


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## Zero890 (Mar 1, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> It's more like not giving Nagato Limbo just because he has Rinnegan.


 
What do you mean? I say that Jiraiya has Sensing because it is a basic skill of Sage mode, as well as strength and increased speed. It is like saying that Kakashi does not have precog because his Sharingan is implanted and he only has one.


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## Serene Grace (Mar 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> You're being intellectually dishonest by ignoring Fukasaku stating that no frog features means he surpassed Jiraiya
> 
> Suggesting a difference


I'm not being intellectually dishonest, I literally explained the animal features argument in detail


Serene Grace said:


> ii) Going by this definition of a perfect sage, Minato would constitute as one as well, as he retains no frog features after balancing his energies... *Spoiler*:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You either can't read or just have hilarious selective reading.



Troyse22 said:


> Because Minato never used it in combat, and had canonically lower reserves than either Jiraiya or Naruto, which means he can't maintain it for long.


Yet YOU establish him as perfect because of the animal features, you see how stupid that this now?



Architect said:


> the indication of a frog sage state superior to Jiraiya's, lol.


Love how you ignore Pa said "might" which implies there's more to simply balancing the energies perfectly for Naruto to be superior to him in that area 

I've also addressed this one million times. The animal features logic establishes Kabuto as an imperfect sage, and Minato as a perfect one. Fact of the matter is the former was established as a perfect sage while the latter was not considered to be the one for Naruto to surpass in Senjutsu, rather the imperfect sage(Jiraiya)


Troyse22 said:


> The no frog features applies to frog SM only.


Based off nothing really. It was never stated that the animal features are only the case for frog sage mode

In fact since all of the sages that managed to perfectly balance their energies had no animal features, it likely points to the contrary.


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 1, 2018)

Theres no ACTUAL "perfect" sage mode canon term no...

Only thing id truly call "Perfect SM" or "True SM" would be RSM...But thats just me


Naruto himself vastly improves in SM over time...And he started out as "a perfect sage" so its abundantly clear that you can suck at regular ol SM AND get better or in other words "perfect it" over time...

Hence the fandom dubbing naruto a "perfect sage" and Jman not being one...Theres a visible difference between them for christ sake...And Jmans form is STATED to have been an "Unmastered" or "Incomplete" version...


Kai said:


> There's no downplay involved I assure you.



Theres also a disparity in terms of the feats Naruto and Jman respectively accomplish in the mode...

Naruto is shown to be physically MUCH stronger for example...Via 1 shotting a path and killing it with a punch and also bitch tossing a rhino several hundred feet into the air. Jman tagged one of the paths with a kick to the face and merely blinded him. Jmans taijutsu hits are also caught by the paths...When they try that against Naruto even Deva gets pushed back.

Naruto is actually stated, and shown to have sensory abilities...Jman hasnt...

But i wont derail the thread by going into any great detail on a side by side feats comparison...Im sure you get the idea by now anyway

So we could all start calling naruto a "complete sage" or "mastered sage" and stop throwing the word "perfect" around if the sannin fans want to...

But it wont make Jman look any better...Hes still not in that club...And his SM is still canonically inferior to what the fandom will always refer to as...

"A Perfect Sage"

Reactions: Like 3


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## Architect (Mar 2, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Love how you ignore Pa said "might" which implies there's more to simply balancing the energies perfectly for Naruto to be superior to him in that area


you can keep your eadcanon implications to yourself


Serene Grace said:


> The animal features logic establishes Kabuto as an imperfect sage


who told you frog sage state = snake sage state?


Serene Grace said:


> and Minato as a perfect one.


it's not about being perfect or imperfect, it's about not having toad attributes displaying superiority, as Fukasaku stated.
And Minato could be really superior to Jiraiya.


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## hysoka uchiha (Mar 2, 2018)

I've just reread the panels after thousand years, opener admit defeat. 
But that does not change that he is still as powerful as Naruto cause having Ma and Pa.


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## Sapherosth (Mar 2, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> And then how did they use Senpo techniques like Frog Song and Senpo Goemon if they were not in SM?




Pretty sure Senpo Goemon was a combination with Jiraiya & Frog Song was them directly gathering chakra for that particular technique.

Even if they WERE constantly in SM, using Frog Song would've used up all their own sage chakra which made them unable to sense.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 2, 2018)

I think the overwhelming majority of people would agree that the SM Naruto who fought 50% Kyuubi was atleast slightly stronger than Jiraiya. I also think most would agree that Base Jiraiya was stronger than Base Naruto at that point, and SM Jiraiya gets a huge bonus SM Naruto doesn’t with the Amphibian Technique. Yet inspite of a superior Base and the ability to fuse with Fukasaku and Shima, Naruto seemed to have surpassed Jiraiya by that point.

Based on this, I would have to say that Naruto gets atleast a moderately bigger boost from Sage Mode than Jiraiya, if not a significantly bigger one. Given the differences between their base and the Amphibian Technique, even Pein Arc Naruto must get a bigger boost to even be comparable to Jiraiya at that point.


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## Troyse22 (Mar 2, 2018)

hysoka uchiha said:


> I've just reread the panels after thousand years, opener admit defeat.
> But that does not change that he is still as powerful as Naruto cause having Ma and Pa.



I generally view SM Jiraiya with Ma and Pa>Pein Arc SM Naruto with 2 clones prepped.

Jiraiya is more versatile, experienced and intelligent than his student (although neither are exactly the brains of any operation if u catch my drift). He's reasonably skilled in espionage, infiltration and intelligence gathering, being able to spy on Oro without Oro's knowledge of that being made evident, and being one of the first to recognize just how dangerous the Akatsuki are. Jiraiya is definitely>Pein Arc SM Naruto who relies on Kage bunshins, Rasenshuriken and PiS on the part of his opponents.

That doesn't mean his SM is on par with Naruto's though, the great sages do quite a lot of work when merged to Jiraiya, giving him infinite SM while being able to use boss summon one shot techs on their own. Jiraiya's versatility, intelligence and experience give him a small edge over Pein Arc SM Naruto



Serene Grace said:


> I'm not being intellectually dishonest, I literally explained the animal features argument in detail
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you're not going to address most of my posts then I won't address you at all.

You're the one trying to convince the NBD of something, if you're unable to do it, concede.


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## Zero890 (Mar 2, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Pretty sure Senpo Goemon was a combination with Jiraiya



Senpo Goemon used Jutsus from each of them with Senjutsu and even used other Senpo Jutsus as the Suiton with which Pa cut the chameleon.



Sapherosth said:


> Frog Song was them directly gathering chakra for that particular technique



IIRC the toads began to sing immediately. 



Sapherosth said:


> Even if they WERE constantly in SM, using Frog Song would've used up all their own sage chakra which made them unable to sense.



No, Ma just complains that her throat hurts, neither Ma nor Pa looked exhausted like Naruto when all his Senjutsu Chakra was running out.


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## wooly Eullerex (Mar 2, 2018)

the difference between naruto & jiraiya is in terms of ease of use///balance///maintaining it w/o help///duration.

there is no difference in power, speed, durability boost or reactions

i'd never argue for frog katas, because:
- they're useless/redundant
-they hadn't even been introduced yet

__jiraiya can sense, because he is a sage._

_thats all i care about.

_if u disagree

_u r an idiot.

...and the rest, of course, is semjantics

Reactions: Like 2


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## Serene Grace (Mar 2, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> If you're not going to address most of my posts then I won't address you at all.
> 
> You're the one trying to convince the NBD of something, if you're



Concession accepted, moving on now


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## Troyse22 (Mar 2, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Concession accepted, moving on now






Makes a thread to convince the entire NBD of something, and refuses to address 95% of the arguments put forth that decidedly shut his garbage shitposting down, then says concession accepted moving along as if he just won the debate.

You literally addressed almost nothing, and ur acting like you addressed everything. You really need to be banned from making threads if you're going to pull these kind of stunts dude.

Seriously, it's a disgrace.


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## Troyse22 (Mar 2, 2018)

@Blu-ray can you lock this up if this kind of garbage nonsense is allowed to continue?

Either he makes these kinds of threads and addresses the counter arguments, or he shouldn't be allowed to make these threads.


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## Shazam (Sep 28, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> Sorry bruv. Lynch me if you want to, but it's absolutely absurd to think that there's absolutely *no* difference between a mastered and unmastered Sage Mode bar cosmetic changes, and absolutely nowhere implies this is the case. lt only ever implied the opposite since it portrayed Naruto's mastery as the moment he surpassed his predecessors. It would not be given that he was weaker than Jiraiya if we subtract SM from both.



where are the scans that say specifically what jiraiya lacked that Naruto had? We just know that Jiraiya used an imperfect version which required the two Toad elders, Shima and Fukasaku, to gather natural energy for him in combat. This had the noticeable effect of giving him toad-like features. But other than that.....what else was said?


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## Streak (Sep 28, 2018)

Being an imperfect sage does not imply being a weaker sage, it just means said sage cannot achieve the 1:1:1 ratio required to become a perfect sage


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## Turrin (Sep 28, 2018)

The only levels of Sage-Mode are regular Sage Mode and Six Paths Sage-Mode. Outside of that their are no levels. Naruto and Minato have less Toad features then Jiraiya, because they can balance the energies better. But that doesn't make their modes stronger, it makes their modes more efficient. Balancing the three energies is a matter of Chakra Control; and therefore learning to balance the energies better has the same advantages as learning better Chakra Control. Basically when Naruto enters Sage-Mode he doesn't waste any Physical/Spiritual/Natural energy so he will mold more Sage-Chakra, and therefore can remain in Sage-Mode longer or do more in Sage-Mode, then someone like Jiraiya can (assuming they both mold the same amount of Physical, Spiritual, and Natural energy when entering the Mode). Additionally Naruto being able to balance the energies perfectly, was a established then because he needed to be the best at that later, when he was balancing far greater energies (AKA Balancing Natural energy against the Kyuubi's Chakra).

It was never about Naruto's Sage-Mode being better in granting bigger boosts then Jiriaya's or Kabuto's; that's totally made up by the Fandom.



> 1. Jiraiya cannot sense
> 2. Jiraiya does not have ghost punches.


Data-book directly says he can do both. And if more Animal features meant you couldn't sense Kabuto shouldn't be able to sense ether.


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 28, 2018)

Oh ffs this dumb thread again 

Jman uses an inferior version of SM and this is stated and shown repeatedly throughout canon.

Fucking get over it 

Naruto has better strength feats, better reaction feats, better speed feats, better sensor feats, and better kumite feats.

Naruto is STATED to be a Sage SURPASSING JMAN BY PA, yknow, the guy who trained BOTH OF THEM.

Pain concurs with that belief, and calls Naruto the strongest thing hes ever fought. Which wouldn't be possible if his SM state wasnt WORLDS ahead of Jmans, considering most people have Base Jman>Base Naruto as late as the fucking JUUBITO FIGHT.

Naruto can enter the moad alone, Jman cant.

Naruto can maintain the mode alone, Jman cant.

Thos sincerely couldn't be more clear cut.

Jman is an unmastered/novice/imperfect/"tadpole" sage...

I dont give a darn what nomenclature you use 

Point being, he sucks at it compared to real masters in hos OWN WORDS HENCE THE TADPOLE REMARK.


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## Serene Grace (Sep 28, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Oh ffs this dumb thread again
> 
> Jman uses an inferior version of SM and this is stated and shown repeatedly throughout canon.
> 
> ...



If you think its dumb and pointless why bother commenting in it again? LOL



WorldsStrongest said:


> novice





Read the manga LOL

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 28, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> If you think its dumb and pointless why bother commenting in it again?


Cuz it was bumped

And i was unsure if i had commented in this thread prior to now

Im jutst saying this topic pops up like every other month or so and as such is fucking haggard 

Especially for something with such an obvious answer 


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Read the manga LOL




"Im still a BABE compared to you"

Also read a fucking dictionary and learn what "nomenclature" means 

And dont quote me out of context


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## Serene Grace (Sep 28, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> "Im still a BABE compared to you"
> 
> Also read a fucking dictionary and learn what "nomenclature" means
> 
> And dont quote me out of context


I never quoted you out of context 

You said some stupid ass shit like Jiraiya being a novice in SM, and you did so by comparing to the two great sages

As dumb as me saying Tobirama is novice in shunsin because Minato has better shunsin than him



WorldsStrongest said:


> Cuz it was bumped
> 
> And i was unsure if i had commented in this thread prior to now
> 
> ...


Sure bud. Ignoring you can see whether or not you've posted in a thread makes sense. 

Stop the save face

And if you were able to even comprehend what I was saying you'd know I outright said Naruto > Jiraiya in senjutsu, nobody is even arguing the latter is stronger

Read the thread before you post nonsense

Reactions: Like 2


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Sep 28, 2018)

Fukasaku said Jiraiya didn't master SM... he's wrong. 

Naruto has superior feats in SM compared to Jiraiya in the same scenarios... Jiraiya should be able to do the same.

And Jiraiya fans say Itachi fans are the worst. 

Well, at least Jiraiya fans don't have Nazis like Ziggy Skinhead.

Reactions: Like 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 28, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I never quoted you out of context


You sure fucking did pal



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> You said some stupid ass shit like Jiraiya being a novice in SM, and you did so by comparing to the two great sages


I SAID COMPARATIVELY IN MY OWN FUCKING POST.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Jman is an unmastered/novice/imperfect/"tadpole" sage...
> 
> I dont give a darn what nomenclature you use
> 
> Point being,* he sucks at it compared to real masters in hos OWN WORDS HENCE THE TADPOLE REMARK.*


OH LOOK. YA GONE AND QUOTED ME OUT OF CONTEXT JUST LIKE I FUCKING SAID YA DID.

What a fucking joke of a post 


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> As dumb as me saying Tobirama is novice in shunsin because Minato has better shunsin than him


Except no it isnt.

Because we know they are still fucking comparable 

WE KNOW, Jman ISNT comparable to REAL FUCKING SAGES.

Wanna know how we know? READ THE MANGA PANEL I GAVE YOU.

Jman himself says so, thats how.

As do his feats when stacked against EVERY other sage...Where he flops by comparison.

Jman cant even enter/maintain the mode himself according to his own teachers...*Jman LITERALLY calls himself a fucking baby by comparison.*

Thats not the same thing as comparing 2 MASTERS of something (Shunshin in your analogy) and having 1 just BARELY EDGE the other guy out...Get fucking real 


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Sure bud. Ignoring you can see whether or not you've posted in a thread makes sense.


Cept on mobile where its difficult to make out especially while going about your day

Not that ive gotta justify myself your fucking ass but still 

The threads also MONTHS old...So theres that.


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Stop the save face


Or, you could not try to fucking start shit with me every second opportunity you have

Real annoying tbh

Especially considering you miss the premise of what im saying 9/10 times...Like here for example. 

Where you quote me out of context and dont even own up to it.


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> And if you were able to even comprehend what I was saying you'd know I outright said Naruto > Jiraiya in senjutsu


And ya wanna know why that is sweetheart?

Because JMANS SM IS IMPERFECT.

Hence the answer to your POINTLESS FUCKING QUESTION.

Stick a fork in it its done.

If YOU were able to comprehend THAT...Maybe you wqouldnt have asked such a stupid question 

Stop being so butthurt about your boy while youre at it...Hes the worst sage...Who gives a fuck? Still dumpsters most if not all of the mid kage bracket.

Be happy with that and stop the pointless damage control 

Ya dont see me whining about Nagato not having a Perfected Rinnegan with PS now do you


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## Prince Idonojie (Sep 28, 2018)

Good read OP

Jiraiya can enter SM himself without the Elders. *Duh*, of course he can because he's a practitioner of it.. or do people actually think the Elders transform him into SM via fusion? (It seems that was indeed implied amongst some initially)... well frankly that's illogical. That would be akin to saying anybody (with a strong body) can enter SM (even if they never practiced it) just by the Elders climbing on their shoulder and doing their thing. Think about what you might be saying people.

Jiraiya's issue with SM was maintaining it indefinitely but every SM user (except the transcendent, god-tier, SM users) had that problem, including Naruto hence it was to be circumvented via sage fusion (or S4, Jugo and drugs in Kabuto's case). Unfortunately Jiraiya also never balanced the energy perfectly so he probably became stuck with the (minimum) frog features he displays when he transforms (at least he didn't transforms into a frog for life lol), this evidently meant he wouldn't have been able to himself express SM's power as high as Naruto or the 2 Elders.

Still as much as SM Naruto was superior to Jiraiya, it was hardly apparent because the gap was minuscule you could hardly notice it. Besides, Sage Mode fusion Jiraiya was superior to non fusion Naruto. The feats, hype, and basic logic of having 2 perfect sages fused with you is evident of this.


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## Prince Idonojie (Sep 28, 2018)

Anyway, I've got a question. How big do y'all reckon the gap was in SM mastery between Naruto and the Elders?


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 28, 2018)

Prince Idonojie said:


> Jiraiya can enter SM himself without the Elders. *Duh*, of course he can because he's a practitioner of it


According to said elders and Jman himself, he cant do so.

So you can "duh" all you want...Youre the only one being made to look foolish...Mostly because you seriously just said "duh" in 2018...But secondly because youre ignoring the manga because youd rather argue from incredulity. Which is a logical fallacy.


Prince Idonojie said:


> do people actually think the Elders transform him into SM via fusion?




And therefore enter it in the first place...So yeah they pretty much do.

Pa also states that THAT his "Jiraiya boy's version of SM" implying thats the only way he can use it. 


Prince Idonojie said:


> Jiraiya's issue with SM was maintaining it indefinitely


AND balancing the NE properly within himself

AND entering the mode on his own merit at all

2 flaws no one else has with SM...Because hes the only highlighted imperfect Sage...


Prince Idonojie said:


> Still as much as SM Naruto was superior to Jiraiya, it was hardly apparent because the gap was minuscule you could hardly notice it


Minus the fact Pa noticed it, Gamabunta noticed it, pretty sure Ma noticed it, and Pain noticed it...

Narutos feats also blow Jmans out of the water...

There is a massive gap between them in SM.


Prince Idonojie said:


> Besides, Sage Mode fusion Jiraiya was superior to non fusion Naruto


No...No he wasnt


Prince Idonojie said:


> The feats, hype, and basic logic of having 2 perfect sages fused with you is evident of this.


Must be why Pain outright states Naruto on his lonesome is > Jman in SM with 2 other Sages stuck to his shoulders 


Prince Idonojie said:


> Anyway, I've got a question. How big do y'all reckon the gap was in SM mastery between Naruto and the Elders?


Naruto is clearly better at it funnily enough.

Pa was tuckered out after lifting one of the statues for a short while whereas Naruto could lift them no diff AND could bitch toss boss summons with ease.

Pa was also floored he could combine NE with the FRS and throw chakra that dense away from himself, implying he cant do so, which would be a direct feat of Naruto surpassing Pa.

Even if you wanna attribute that to Pa being "old" or out of his prime or whatever...

Doesnt change the fact that Naruto > The pa we know at the very least.


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 28, 2018)

Prince Idonojie said:


> Anyway, I've got a question. How big do y'all reckon the gap was in SM mastery between Naruto and the Elders?


Not much come the war arc.

Naruto became the one to surpass in terms of SM, being able to near instantly enter SM when not exhausted and form amazing "light up the night" size attacks that can be seen for miles.

They might have some jutsu he doesn't know but in terms of skill and power he has some of the best feats.


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## Bonly (Sep 29, 2018)

Kai said:


> There's no downplay involved I assure you.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Sep 29, 2018)

Wouldn't Jiraiyas save mode be better because he doesn't have to stop and replenish nature energy with the toads doing it for him?


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 29, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Wouldn't Jiraiyas save mode be better because he doesn't have to stop and replenish nature energy with the toads doing it for him?


More cost effective 

Literally his only advantage over any other Sage

And it doesn't save him against any other Sage as he gets power bombed long before a battle of attrition becomes a concern


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## SakuraLover16 (Sep 29, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> More cost effective
> 
> Literally his only advantage over any other Sage
> 
> And it doesn't save him against any other Sage as he gets power bombed long before a battle of attrition becomes a concern


Uh uh Jiraiya wins first by shouting "I'm a Sannin"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Sep 29, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Uh uh Jiraiya wins first by shouting "I'm a Sannin"



Basically this

This is a Sannin were talking about


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## Hi no Ishi (Sep 29, 2018)

As for the topic itself:

Jiraiya has pigmentation around the eyes like every other sage that shows he is what Fukusaku called a true sage. 
He even called what Jiraiya could do impressive.

Jiraiya is shown at different times to
 a)  have a sage mode clone be active without Fukusaku and Shima who can use multiple jutsu even a sustained attack

And b) Fukusaku remembers Jiraiya being in sage mode without the Toads attached.


Naruto is noted after this to be better at balancing the senjutsu as he gets less frog features but no one calls it a different kind of sage mode or even implied it. Jiraiya even gives himself more froglike features on purpose during the pain fight.

So I don't know how much of a difference that really makes.

So to me it seems Jiraiya and Minato have the same problem with SM, being to slow to gather NE and being unable to maintain it for long by themselves, but Jiraiya has more experience using the mode while Minato is better at balancing it but not using it.

Naruto, who was the closest to Jiraiya in shinobi strength in the village besides Tsunade anyway, gets pushed over Minato in SM ability and Jiraiya overall, with better balance and the ability to maintain it and replenish it on his own and use multiple jutsu without falling out the mode quickly (barring impossible monster jutsu like Rasenshruiken of course)

In the war arc where he can go SM mid conversation quick enough to shock blitz a Jonin team and seemingly just have a clone plop on down and enter sage mode at will when they aren't exhausted


And maintain it far surpassing the toad sages and his human predecessors.


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## Shazam (Jul 4, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I've come across this infamous statement a few times. Usually used to downplay Jiraiya or SM to a different level or trying so hard to separate SM into two forms(imperfect and perfect), when in reality it's simply a matter of attaining SM and not.
> 
> Constantly seeing these statement or arguments gave me the inspiration to make this thread, basically an attempt to help people better understand the "imperfect and perfect sm fallacy.
> 
> ...



Great Post !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 4, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Great Post !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


If shazam likes it, that means it’s actually terrible 

And the fact this bullshit thread got bumped again is just doubly so


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 4, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Literally cucking


As usual


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 4, 2019)

@The Death & The Strawberry 

Yeah I thought it was funny too bud

S’why I wrote it


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 4, 2019)

Your argument is invalid. Jiraiya didn't master Sage Mode hence why he literally had frog-like characteristics and Naruto's ability to strike a perfect balance between natural energy and his own chakra is what enabled him to master Sage Mode and exceed Jiraiya.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jul 4, 2019)

I don't understand why the section is really torn over this. Each form of Sage Mode has advantages and disadvantages. While Jiraiya wasn't able to perfectly the balance the energy and takes a bit longer to enter he did have benefits. Jiraiya had two sages on his shoulders, a basically infinite duration (toads gather and balance the energy for him), new combination ninjutsu, a powerful genjutsu, as well as some other mess that I care little about remembering. In the big scheme of things this perfect and imperfect Sage Mode matters very little.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Symmetry (Jul 4, 2019)

jman's SM doesn't give the same buff Naruto's does, otherwise, Jman would have shit on pain in two seconds flat. Naruto's Sm took him from being high jounin to low kage, to suddenly being stronger then KN4 and probably kn5. Meanwhile, Base Jman is already kn4 levels, but his SM obviously didn't put him at kn8 tails levels did it? The buff is different, its weaker for Jman, by a lot, its just off put by Jman's superior base.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Symmetry (Jul 4, 2019)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> No he didn’t, Ma and Pa are no different to summon than any other toad.



It took Jman an entire chapter to gather the chakra to summon ma and pa, yet he summons gamaken in one pannel.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 5, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> jman's SM doesn't give the same buff Naruto's does, otherwise, Jman would have shit on pain in two seconds flat. Naruto's Sm took him from being high jounin to low kage, to suddenly being stronger then KN4 and probably kn5. Meanwhile, Base Jman is already kn4 levels, but his SM obviously didn't put him at kn8 tails levels did it? The buff is different, its weaker for Jman, by a lot, its just off put by Jman's superior base.



 I wonder why @wooly Eullerex disagreed with you here.


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## Sufex (Jul 5, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Tell me more about your wild dreams?


You forfeit the right to call anyone else salty when you make as many spite threads as you do kid.


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## Sufex (Jul 5, 2019)

Kai said:


> There's no downplay involved I assure you.


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## Zembie (Jul 5, 2019)

Fukasaku even says that Naruto surpassed Jiraiya in SM in the pic you provided, I wonder what that means 


Jiraiya's SM wasn't perfect, hence "imperfect" SM, we don't really know the difference in power output but I think its safe to assume Naruto is significantly stronger, fukasaku was floored when he saw Naruto throw the RS. You can argue that he doesn't have sensing or frog katas but in my honest opinion I think these abilities were retconned and Jiraiya does have them.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shazam (Jul 5, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Jiraiya didn't master Sage Mode hence why he literally had frog-like characteristics



Kabuto literally grew horns in sm and he was "perfect "..... 

Jiraiya still has all of the basic sage attributes


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## Zembie (Jul 5, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Kabuto literally grew horns in sm and he was "perfect ".....
> 
> Jiraiya still has all of the basic sage attributes


Comparing Snake SM to Toad SM...every snake sage has horns (Mitsuki, Kabuto) which means that its a normal attribute for snake SM, only Jiraiya has toad features out of all toad sages.


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## JayK (Jul 5, 2019)

I guess all MS are also identical in prowess and mastery.

Oh wait.


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## Shazam (Jul 5, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Comparing Snake SM to Toad SM...every snake sage has horns (Mitsuki, Kabuto) which means that its a normal attribute for snake SM, only Jiraiya has toad features out of all toad sages.



If developing any abnormal growth from Sage transformation appears why would that be a standard for one and not the over?


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## Shazam (Jul 5, 2019)

JayK said:


> I guess all MS are also identical in prowess and mastery.
> 
> Oh wait.



Literally a completely different line of discussion altogether.


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## Zembie (Jul 5, 2019)

Shazam said:


> If developing any abnormal growth from Sage transformation appears why would that be a standard for one and not the over?


Because every SM is different obviously.


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## Shazam (Jul 5, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Because every SM is different obviously.



Okay so enlighten me on what the standard for imperfect and perfect Sage transformation looks like with snake.

If abnormal growth is not a deviation point then what is


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## Zembie (Jul 5, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Okay so enlighten me on what the standard for imperfect and perfect Sage transformation looks like with snake.
> 
> If abnormal growth is not a deviation point then what is


There is no "imperfect" SM as far as we know, because failing to control the sage's power means you become dinner for the snake. The method of attaining it is also completely different.


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## Shazam (Jul 5, 2019)

Zembie said:


> There is no "imperfect" SM as far as we know, because failing to control the sage's power means you become dinner for the snake. The method of attaining it is also completely different.



No because even in toad Sage you could become a statue if you don't do well enough


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jul 5, 2019)

About that -> ()


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## Serene Grace (Jul 5, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Fukasaku even says that Naruto surpassed Jiraiya in SM in the pic you provided, I wonder what that means
> 
> 
> Jiraiya's SM wasn't perfect, hence "imperfect" SM, we don't really know the difference in power output but I think its safe to assume Naruto is significantly stronger, fukasaku was floored when he saw Naruto throw the RS. You can argue that he doesn't have sensing or frog katas but in my honest opinion I think these abilities were retconned and Jiraiya does have them.


Possibly the fairest assessment I’ve seen from the opposition


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## Trojan (Jul 5, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Your argument is invalid. Jiraiya didn't master Sage Mode hence why he literally had frog-like characteristics and Naruto's ability to strike a perfect balance between natural energy and his own chakra is what enabled him to master Sage Mode and exceed Jiraiya.


was it you who said Kabuto has perfected SM despite having snake-like characteristics, or someone else?

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 5, 2019)

Zembie said:


> fukasaku was floored when he saw Naruto throw the RS.



Pa wasn't surprised because it was related to Sage mode, he was surprised because Naruto kept the jutsu a secret from him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Symmetry (Jul 5, 2019)

Shazam said:


> No because even in toad Sage you could become a statue if you don't do well enough




It’s different with snakes, as Orochimaru didn’t get to become a perfect snake at all, thebjust booted his ass out. For the snakes your either perfect or your nothing. That’s why Orochimaru developed the curse mark and the snake hydraform. 


Mitsuki also has crazy alterations in snake SM, so it seems to just be a thing with that type of mode.


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## Shazam (Jul 5, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> It’s different with snakes, as Orochimaru didn’t get to become a perfect snake at all, thebjust booted his ass out. For the snakes your either perfect or your nothing. That’s why Orochimaru developed the curse mark and the snake hydraform.
> 
> 
> Mitsuki also has crazy alterations in snake SM, so it seems to just be a thing with that type of mode.



Rather I think it's more about a lack of consistency. And citing Boruto which isnt even wrote by Kishi is on shaky ground.


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## Zembie (Jul 5, 2019)

Shazam said:


> No because even in toad Sage you could become a statue if you don't do well enough


The method of attaining it is also completely different. Also you have the help from a master sage to prevent you from becoming a statue while we don't really know the circumstances of snake sagehood. There is a reason Naruto was said to surpass Jiraiya in SM and Fukasaku praising him for not attaining SM without frog features (meaning that Jiraiya's SM wasn't perfect). Kabuto himself said he was a perfect sage (and so is Mitsuki probably). Every snake sage has the standard horns but unlike snake SM, toad SM's frog features are something that only Jiraiya had and Naruto surpassed Jiraiya by attaining perfect sagehood.


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## Zembie (Jul 5, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Pa wasn't surprised because it was related to Sage mode, he was surprised because Naruto kept the jutsu a secret from him.


Which begs the question, why was Naruto praised in surpassing Jiraiya in SM when the power output is the same?


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 5, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Kabuto himself said he was a perfect sage (and so is Mitsuki probably).



He did?

Where did Kabuto claim he was a perfect sage? Going over the brothers fight I can't locate this passage.



Zembie said:


> Which begs the question, why was Naruto praised in surpassing Jiraiya in SM when the power output is the same?



My clarification on your premise doesn't actual beg this question....?

Anyway, Naruto was a better sage because he was better at balancing the sage energy and as a result avoided the frog features. "Power output" is unrelated to this detail. In fact when Pa indicated Naruto was a better sage Pa had no idea about Naruto's "power output" so it obviously wouldn't have been a consideration in his assessment.


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## Zembie (Jul 5, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> He did?
> 
> Where did Kabuto claim he was a perfect sage? Going over the brothers fight I can't locate this passage.



Unless "true sage" has a different meaning I am going with perfect (I have also seen translations with the word perfect). The reason Kabuto looks so fucked up is because he has Oro's DNA.


> Anyway, Naruto was a better sage because he was better at balancing the sage energy and as a result avoided the frog features.


So you are implying that the change is purely cosmetic?


> "Power output" is unrelated to this detail. In fact when Pa indicated Naruto was a better sage Pa had no idea about Naruto's "power output" so it obviously wouldn't have been a consideration in his assessment.


Why was he praised for becoming a "better sage" than Jiraiya when it doesn't really change anything?


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## Blu-ray (Jul 5, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> He did?
> 
> Where did Kabuto claim he was a perfect sage? Going over the brothers fight I can't locate this passage.


*Link Removed*


Hussain said:


> was it you who said Kabuto has perfected SM despite having snake-like characteristics, or someone else?


Probably me. Afterall, this was my first reply to this thread:


Blu-ray said:


> C'mon now Hussain. The dude's true form even* without* invoking Sage Mode, Unless Jiraiya's really half frog then they aren't comparable.


He's part snake whether he's in Sage Mode or not.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 5, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Unless "true sage" has a different meaning I am going with perfect.



Ok, but he has animal features.

So can you be a "perfect sage" with animal features or not?



> So you are implying that the change is purely cosmetic?



Possibly? I guess it depends on if you think Kabuto is a perfect sage or not.



> Why was he praised for becoming a "better sage" than Jiraiya when it doesn't really change anything?



The issue here is you are conflating being better with more power, and that was never suggested. You've also arbitrarily decided that there is no difference ("doesn't really change anything") with Naruto's lack of Frog features. Well that is *your qualifier not the manga's*. The manga explicitly tells us that the lack of frog features is the reason Naruto may possibly surpass Jiraiya as a sage.

If you interject your own qualifier opposed to the manga you will find it hard to reconcile with what the manga is telling us.

Naruto can enter and maintain Sage mode on his own. Naruto also does not gain animal features. Does checking either of these boxes make him better? If the answer is "yes" then I don't know what your point is.

Look, Naruto is more powerful than Jiraiya by virtue of FRS alone. Your angle to establish this by the sage training doesn't fly as power was never a qualification of superior sagehood.

Naruto is more powerful but his power level has nothing to do with being a better sage.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 5, 2019)

Blu-ray said:


> *Link Removed*
> 
> Probably me. Afterall, this was my first reply to this thread:
> 
> He's part snake whether he's in Sage Mode or not.



Yeah people citing Kabutos SM as evidence of Jiraiyas being perfect due to both having animal features are dumb...

Kabutos a damn snake 9-5...Literally 

Hes got genetic modifications pouring out of his ears and even made use of Jugos Sage Transformation KKG which ALSO comes with its own physical alterations when used and Kabuto is CONSTANTLY using it to maintain his SM...

Jiraiya is NOT in the same boat, and its flat out idiotic to pretend they are.

Even ignoring the fact the SMs they use are TOTALLY different and also achieved in entirely different ways, equalizing them is just inane.

What we know for a fact, is that frog features appearing on a Toad SM user is an indicator of lack of skill...We know Pa states Jiraiya hasnt mastered SM...And we know Jiraiya refers to himself as a damn baby compared to real Sages use of SM...

Thread should be over with that

Yet here we are

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zembie (Jul 5, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Ok, but he has animal features.
> So can you be a "perfect sage" with animal features or not?


 
 We both know he was a snake long before he got SM,



> Possibly? I guess it depends on if you think Kabuto is a perfect sage or not.


He is as stated by himself. Statements are important, no?



> The issue here is you are conflating being better with more power, and that was never suggested. You've also arbitrarily decided that there is no difference ("doesn't really change anything") with Naruto's lack of Frog features. Well that is *your qualifier not the manga's*. The manga explicitly tells us that the lack of frog features is the reason Naruto may possibly surpass Jiraiya as a sage.
> 
> If you interject your own qualifier opposed to the manga you will find it hard to reconcile with what the manga is telling us.





> Naruto can enter and maintain Sage mode on his own. Naruto also does not gain animal features. Does checking either of these boxes make him better? If the answer is "yes" then I don't know what your point is.


Entering SM on his own?(also isn't Jiraiya able to enter SM without them, but needs them to stay in SM?) Yes, not having frog features? Sure, but there has to be a difference since frog features were mentioned to be a negative trait hence Naruto being praised for not showing any.



> Look, Naruto is more powerful than Jiraiya by virtue of FRS alone. Your angle to establish this by the sage training doesn't fly as power was never a qualification of superior sagehood.


I was giving an example with power (since I don't really know, but I think there has to be a difference when you balance sage chakra perfectly), but Jiraiya's SM is obviously not "perfect" hence why many call it "imperfect"


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## Prince Idonojie (Jul 5, 2019)

A sharper translation already pokes obvious holes into the the concept of "perfect sage" implying the phrase itself to be an oxymoron.

Kabuto also only developed horns upon the activation of SM yet he's called himself a perfect sage.

Moreover Minato whom had no obvious outer bodily manifestation denoting "imperfection" criticized his own mastery of the transformation all the while likening Naruto's transformation to that of Jiraiya (going as far as to say Jiraiya was a master of it), straightaway implying that as far as human practitioners of recent time go, Jiraiya was the man to beat before his son dethroned him.

Conclusion, OP's makes a good argument.

Anyone that taps into SM is already a "perfect sage" but there are obvious levels to the perfection based on balance and synchronisation with NE forming sage chakra. The imperfect, pseudo ones are those that lack the qualifications to become a bona-fide Sage but are able to actualise Senjutsu power to an extent i.e CM users, Orochimaru and likely anybody else that dabbled into nature power including animals of various kinds. Gamabunta is a Senjutsu practitioner but the son Gamakichi surpassed him by becoming a "perfect Sage.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 5, 2019)

Zembie said:


> We both know he was a snake long before he got SM,



The dragon features (Horns and large scales) are a result of his sage transformation. If he takes on *new and unique animal features* due to his sage mode does that make him an imperfect sage?



> He is as stated by himself. Statements are important, no?



They are.

Jiraiya was never said to be an "Imperfect Sage". That is simply a fandom descriptor. Actually I don't think Naruto was ever called a perfect sage either despite lacking frog features.

So it is possible that sage perfection has nothing to do with the criteria that the fandom has chosen for it.



> Entering SM on his own? Yes, not having frog features? Sure, but there has to be a difference since frog features were mentioned to be a negative trait hence Naruto being praised for not showing any.



We know why the trait is negative - you turn into a frog statue. However Jiraiya overcame this potential detriment and stabilized his technique so this wouldn't happen.



> I was giving an example with power (since I don't really know, but I think there has to be a difference when you balance sage chakra perfectly), but Jiraiya's SM is obviously not "perfect" hence why many call it "imperfect"



Kabuto is the only sage (as far as I can tell) that has been called (self) perfect.

Jiraiya was never called an imperfect sage.

Naruto was never called a perfect sage. (Naruto is a better sage than Jiraiya)

Plus as I said power is not the defining characteristic of sage "perfection". The criteria for this moniker has not been made clear in the manga and may not even actually exist.


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## Zembie (Jul 5, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> The dragon features (Horns and large scales) are a result of his sage transformation. If he takes on *new and unique animal features* due to his sage mode does that make him an imperfect sage?


No, because we don't compare Toad SM to Snake SM *SINCE THEY AREN'T THE SAME*
And even if we do compare SM, there is always some kind of transformation, for Naruto its his eyes and for Snake users it may be pigmentation and horns.


> They are.
> Jiraiya was never said to be an "Imperfect Sage". That is simply a fandom descriptor. Actually I don't think Naruto was ever called a perfect sage either despite lacking frog features.
> So it is possible that sage perfection has nothing to do with the criteria that the fandom has chosen for it.


 


One of the imperfections of Toad SM was toad like features...which means that Naruto lacks imperfections (or at least the ones we are aware of) and I think we both know what lacking imperfections means. *Fukasaku mentions that Jiraiya wasn't able to fully master it and mentions the toad-like features WHICH NARUTO LACKS....*



> We know why the trait is negative - you turn into a frog statue. However Jiraiya overcame this potential detriment and stabilized his technique so this wouldn't happen.


Completely different than turning into a frog...they were called imperfections by fukasaku and Naruto surpassed him in SM, making him perfect.




> Kabuto is the only sage (as far as I can tell) that has been called (self) perfect.


Fair.


> Jiraiya was never called an imperfect sage.


Having imperfections means you aren't perfect, and Naruto didn't have toad features meaning he became a "perfect" sage.


> Naruto was never called a perfect sage.* (Naruto is a better sage than Jiraiya)*


Not having imperfections means that you are perfect, Naruto is obviously a better sage than Jiraiya since he lacks such imperfections.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 5, 2019)

Zembie said:


> No, because we don't compare Toad SM to Snake SM *SINCE THEY AREN'T THE SAME*
> And even if we do compare SM, there is always some kind of transformation, for Naruto its his eyes and for Snake users it may be pigmentation and horns.



The eye graduations are an aspect of Snake Sage mode as well.



The issue at hand is snake sage mode has many parallels with toad sage mode. The only thing we know is an imbalanced mix results in more animal features. The only implication we have is that Kabuto's mix is also imbalanced hence the extra animal features.



> One of the imperfections of Toad SM was toad like features...which means that Naruto lacks imperfections (or at least the ones we are aware of) and I think we both know what lacking imperfections means. *Fukasaku mentions that Jiraiya wasn't able to fully master it and mentions the toad-like features WHICH NARUTO LACKS....*



Jiraiya was never said to be an "imperfect sage".

Naruto was never said to be a "perfect sage".

You response has not addressed these points.



> Completely different than turning into a frog...they were called imperfections by fukasaku and Naruto surpassed him in SM, making him perfect.



When did Pa call the frog features imperfect?



> Having imperfections means you aren't perfect, and Naruto didn't have toad features meaning he became a "perfect" sage.



Did Pa actually ever refer to these features as "imperfections"?



> Not having imperfections means that you are perfect, Naruto is obviously a better sage than Jiraiya since he lacks such imperfections.



Where did Pa say that manifesting frog features was imperfect?


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## Zembie (Jul 5, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> The eye graduations are an aspect of Snake Sage mode as well.
> 
> 
> 
> The issue at hand is snake sage mode has many parallels with toad sage mode. The only thing we know is an imbalanced mix results in more animal features. The only implication we have is that Kabuto's mix is also imbalanced hence the extra animal features.


He only has extra horns, like every other Snake SM user.




> Jiraiya was never said to be an "imperfect sage".
> 
> Naruto was never said to be a "perfect sage".
> 
> You response has not addressed these points.


Does something have to be mentioned in the manga to draw your own conclusions?


> When did Pa call the frog features imperfect?



"*Even Jiraiya wasn't able to completely master it, when he manipulated sage jutsu chakra, Jiraiya alwas acquired some frog features*" then fukasaku goes on to praise Naruto for attaining sagehood and surpassing Jiraiya because he lacked toad features, meaning that he completely mastered toad SM.


> Did Pa actually ever refer to these features as "imperfections"?


Does something have to be mentioned in the manga to draw your own conclusions?


> Where did Pa say that manifesting frog features was imperfect?


Does something have to be mentioned in the manga to draw your own conclusions?


Jiraiya attained SM, but it wasn't with perfect mastery due to his toad features as fukasaku mentioned, Naruto attained perfect mastery because he lacked those features. Kabuto calls himself a perfect sage, it really isn't that hard to draw the conclusion that "imperfect SM" is a thing since Jiraiya didn't have perfect mastery.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 5, 2019)

Zembie said:


> He only has extra horns, like every other Snake SM user.



And scales.



> Does something have to be mentioned in the manga to draw your own conclusions?



It's the entire point of this thread. To determine if the fandom created "perfect sage" is a true thing or not and what the qualifiers are for it.



> "*Even Jiraiya wasn't able to completely master it, when he manipulated sage jutsu chakra, Jiraiya alwas acquired some frog features*" then fukasaku goes on to praise Naruto for attaining sagehood and surpassing Jiraiya because he lacked toad features, meaning that he completely mastered toad SM.
> 
> Does something have to be mentioned in the manga to draw your own conclusions?
> 
> Does something have to be mentioned in the manga to draw your own conclusions?



When has Jiraiya been called an "imperfect sage"?

When has Naruto been called a "perfect sage"?

If your answer is never, then you might be working with a bullshit premise, WHICH IS THE POINT.



> Jiraiya attained SM, but it wasn't with perfect mastery due to his toad features as fukasaku mentioned, Naruto attained perfect mastery because he lacked those features. Kabuto calls himself a perfect sage, it really isn't that hard to draw the conclusion that "imperfect SM" is a thing since Jiraiya didn't have perfect mastery.



Here's the problem, the fandom has arbitrarily determined that "perfect sages" are perfect due to lack of animal features.

Have you considered that this isn't the criteria for perfect sagehood? Especially when we know Kabuto, as "perfect sage" takes on extra animal features?

Not to mention both Naruto and Jiraiya cannot maintain sage mode indefinitely on their own. (but Kabuto can...hmmm?)

Perfect sage is not a term ever used by Pa. This is a Kabuto specific term. Kabuto who can maintain sage mode indefinitely unlike Naruto and Jiraiya.

Maybe the chakra mix has nothing to do with "perfect sage mode" and the ability to remain in sage mode as long as you want does?


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## Zembie (Jul 5, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> And scales.


 





> It's the entire point of this thread. To determine if the fandom created "perfect sage" is a true thing or not and what the qualifiers are for it.


To not have imperfections like Jiraiya




> When has Jiraiya been called an "imperfect sage"?
> 
> When has Naruto been called a "perfect sage"?
> 
> If your answer is never, then you might be working with a bullshit premise, WHICH IS THE POINT.


Does something have to be mentioned in the manga to draw your own conclusions? Heck even call it unmastared SM, its still the same shit.




> Here's the problem, the fandom has arbitrarily determined that "perfect sages" are perfect due to lack of animal features.


And here I quote myself:


> "*Even Jiraiya wasn't able to completely master it, when he manipulated sage jutsu chakra, Jiraiya alwas acquired some frog features*" then fukasaku goes on to praise Naruto for attaining sagehood and surpassing Jiraiya because he lacked toad features, meaning that he completely mastered toad SM.





> Have you considered that this isn't the criteria for perfect sagehood? Especially when we know Kabuto, as "perfect sage" takes on extra animal features?




Horns and pigmentation. Nothing more.



> Not to mention both Naruto and Jiraiya cannot maintain sage mode indefinitely on their own. (but Kabuto can...hmmm?)


What a bunch of bollocks, Kabuto can maintain SM due to Jugo's DNA.


> Perfect sage is not a term ever used by Pa. This is a Kabuto specific term. Kabuto who can maintain sage mode indefinitely unlike Naruto and Jiraiya.





> "*Even Jiraiya wasn't able to completely master it, when he manipulated sage jutsu chakra, Jiraiya alwas acquired some frog features*" then fukasaku goes on to praise Naruto for attaining sagehood and surpassing Jiraiya because he lacked toad features, meaning that he completely mastered toad SM.






> Maybe the chakra mix has nothing to do with "perfect sage mode" and the ability to remain in sage mode as long as you want does?


If that is your interpretation I guess?


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 5, 2019)

Zembie said:


>



Yes.





> To not have imperfections like Jiraiya



Who said it was an imperfection?



> Does something have to be mentioned in the manga to draw your own conclusions? Heck even call it unmastared SM, its still the same shit.



It has to be mentioned to call it canon.

The point is "imperfect sage" is some fan made shit. If you admit is just a fan term with no actual distinction made in the manga then I have no issue.

You can call anything you want by anything you want. I'm simply pointing out this isn't a real thing at this point.



> And here I quote myself:



Ok so no real answer then?



> Horns and pigmentation. Nothing more.



Scales.

S
C
A
L
E
S



> What a bunch of bollocks, Kabuto can maintain SM due to Jugo's DNA.



Sure.

That doesn't change anything. Kabuto integrated the method to maintain sage mode within himself. He can maintain it indefinitely without outside assistance unlike Naruto and Jiraiya.



> If that is your interpretation I guess?



I don't have an interpretation. Imperfect sage mode doesn't exist in the manga. Kabuto's method for achieving perfect sagehood was not disclosed. I am simply offering alternative takes because we don't actually know.


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## Grinningfox (Jul 5, 2019)

I think using the panel of Jiraiya being in SM without Ma and Pa is a little shaky.

I mean

We don’t even know if he’s outside of Mt Myobokou where he would have access to the special oil


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## Zembie (Jul 5, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Yes.


Always had scales, baseless claim. If you are going to ignore the fact that he has scales and act like he got it from SM or "got more" with SM even tho your claim is completely baseless then so be it.




> Who said it was an imperfection?


Fukasaku when he told Naruto he didn't master it completely because he had frog features, mentioned this a dozen times.




> It has to be mentioned to call it canon.


I am not calling anything canon, I am just drawing the most logical conclusion, big difference


> The point is "imperfect sage" is some fan made shit. If you admit is just a fan term with no actual distinction made in the manga then I have no issue.


There's a distinction as I've already said a couple of times. Jiraiya didn't master SM perfectly a stated by fukasaku himself, just because it isn't outright called "imperfect SM" doesn't mean that Jiraiya has mastered SM.


> You can call anything you want by anything you want. I'm simply pointing out this isn't a real thing at this point.


Ok




> Ok so no real answer then?


Whatever.



> Scales.
> 
> S
> C
> ...


N O
O

He always had scales, *you are reaching at this point*.




> Sure.
> 
> That doesn't change anything. Kabuto integrated the method to maintain sage mode within himself. He can maintain it indefinitely without outside assistance unlike Naruto and Jiraiya.


If that is what perfect SM means to you I guess?




> I don't have an interpretation. Imperfect sage mode doesn't exist in the manga. Kabuto's method for achieving perfect sagehood was not disclosed. I am simply offering alternative takes because we don't actually know.



Read....
*"JIRAIYA WASN'T ABLE TO COMPLETELY MASTER IT" *then fukasaku goes on to mention his toad features as a sign of *INCOMPLETE MASTERY*.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 5, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Always had scales, baseless claim



Manga facts.

Without Oro's power / Without Sage mode = No Scales

With Oro's power = Some scales

With Sage mode = Some scales

With Sage Mode + Oro's power = All the scales



> Fukasaku when he told Naruto he didn't master it completely because he had frog features, mentioned this a dozen times.



So it was never actually said to be IMPERFECT was it?

There's a point to this that you are obviously missing which I will get to.



> I am not calling anything canon, I am just drawing the most logical conclusion, big difference



Not as logical as you think.



> There's a distinction as I've already said a couple of times. Jiraiya didn't master SM perfectly a stated by fukasaku himself, just because it isn't outright called "imperfect SM" doesn't mean that Jiraiya has mastered SM.



This is simply untrue.

The toads never made any distinction regarding perfect sages. They commented on the chakra balance and mastery over that but never actually atributed any of it too being a "perfect" or "imperfect" sage.



> Whatever.



Ok, I will go with no real answer.



> N O
> O



Still SCALES

DUUUURRRRRR



> He always had scales, *you are reaching at this point*.



Who the fuck said he HAD NO SCALES?

Oro's power comes with scales.

Sage mode comes with scales.

Put them together, shit tone of scales

Take *both of them away* no scales.

Give him 1 of either, HE HAS SCALES



> If that is what perfect SM means to you I guess?



All we know is that Kabuto, with body modification and extra animal features, considers himself a perfect sage.

I don't know what a perfect sage is because the manga *hasn't defined it*.



> Read....
> *"JIRAIYA WASN'T ABLE TO COMPLETELY MASTER IT" *then fukasaku goes on to mention his toad features as a sign of *INCOMPLETE MASTERY*.



And here is the point - "Imperfection" is your emphasis, not the manga's. Imperfection in this case is a result of extra animal features beyond the eye graduations. Kabuto a "perfect sage" has horns, scales and eye graduations as a result of his sage mode. Animal features do not stop one from being a perfect sage, nor does the lack of them make one a perfect sage. (Naruto was never said to be a perfect sage)


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## Zembie (Jul 5, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Manga facts.
> 
> Without Oro's power / Without Sage mode = No Scales
> 
> ...


Can you prove to me why you think SM gives scales and not solely Orochimaru's DNA?




> So it was never actually said to be IMPERFECT was it?
> 
> There's a point to this that you are obviously missing which I will get to.


Not being able to completely master it = imperfect, doesn't mean you have to be a genius to make the connection.







> This is simply untrue.
> 
> The toads never made any distinction regarding perfect sages. They commented on the chakra balance and mastery over that but never actually atributed any of it too being a "perfect" or "imperfect" sage.


Not being able to completely master it = imperfect, doesn't mean you have to be a genius to make the connection. Naruto was praised for mastering SM without frog features, which makes Naruto a perfect master of SM.




> Ok, I will go with no real answer.


Okay.




> Still SCALES
> 
> DUUUURRRRRR
> 
> ...


Can you prove to me why you think SM gives scales and not solely Orochimaru's DNA?




> All we know is that Kabuto, with body modification and extra animal features, considers himself a perfect sage.


He had animal features already, stop acting like its because of his SM.


> I don't know what a perfect sage is because the manga *hasn't defined it*.


I never mentioned the manga, I am just saying why Jiraiya's SM isn't perfect, ofc its not defined because it is not explicitly said. It is the most logical conclusion to make tho.



> And here is the point - "Imperfection" is your emphasis, not the manga's. Imperfection in this case is a result of extra animal features beyond the eye graduations. Kabuto a "perfect sage" has horns, scales and eye graduations as a result of his sage mode. Animal features do not stop one from being a perfect sage, nor does the lack of them make one a perfect sage. (Naruto was never said to be a perfect sage)


Horns and pigmentation, scales are from Orochimaru as already mentioned.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 5, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Can you prove to me why you think SM gives scales and not solely Orochimaru's DNA?







> Not being able to completely master it = imperfect, doesn't mean you have to be a genius to make the connection.



The manga uses the term "perfect sage".

The term "imperfect sage" was never used in the manga. You can call it whatever you like, but do not conflate *your interpretation* of what sage mastery means with "imperfection" or whatever because we were never actually told who was an imperfect sage.



> Not being able to completely master it = imperfect, doesn't mean you have to be a genius to make the connection. Naruto was praised for mastering SM without frog features, which makes Naruto a perfect master of SM.



No.

Kabuto is the only perfect sage we know of. Who and what his sage mode is distinctly different and superior to Naruto. (at the time) Therefore any idea that Naruto is "perfect" isn't accurate as we don't know how one qualifies to be a perfect sage.



> Can you prove to me why you think SM gives scales and not solely Orochimaru's DNA?



Already did.



> He had animal features already, stop acting like its because of his SM.



WHO THE FUCK SAID ALL OF HIS ANIMAL FEATURES ARE A RESULT OF SAGE MODE



> I never mentioned the manga, I am just saying why Jiraiya's SM isn't perfect, ofc its not defined because it is not explicitly said. It is the most logical conclusion to make tho.



And I'm just pointing out that Kabuto was the only perfect sage, including Naruto.



> Horns and pigmentation, scales are from Orochimaru as already mentioned.



LOL

No.


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## Trojan (Jul 5, 2019)

I would say the debate could potentially end when Mitsuki reach his peak (with SM). But then again, some people
will likely start saying "this is none canon" or "it's not Kishi"...etc

Even tho Kabuto has been proven wrong before, so I am not sure why people take his word seriously. Fukasaku who is 800 years old
should be taken more seriously than Kabuto since he has far more experience with how SM works, and we have seen actual comparisons before (Naruto & Jman). And we have also seen Hashirama who does not get any additional features for using SM either.

To me, it seems more like people trying to find any excuse for Kabuto, and not even considering that he might be wrong
as a possibility... :V

I would imagine one of the reasons for that has to do with itachi, and how he would look like..

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 5, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Kabuto literally grew horns in sm and he was "perfect ".....
> 
> Jiraiya still has all of the basic sage attributes



Because dragons have horns and snakes do not. The only characteristic that differentiates a Perfect Sage and an imperfect one depends on the type of Sage Mode being used. It's heavily implied in the databook and stated in the manga that resembling a dragon is a sign of mastering Sage Mode in Kabuto/Orochimaru's case while in Naruto/Jiraiya's case, having the pigmentations whilst avoiding frog-like characteristics was a sign of true mastery.

I'm not denying that Jiraiya isn't a sage, but the fact remains that he could not strike a perfect balance between natural energy and his own chakra which is why Pa stated that Naruto surpassed Jiraiya. It's flat out shown in Pa's assertion which many have posted already. I'm not going to connect two and two together because people lack reading comprehension.


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## Zembie (Jul 5, 2019)

Stop sending me this baseless garbage. Kabuto has scales because he has Orochimaru's DNA which means that Kabuto replenishes Orochimaru's chakra in his body (unless you think Orochimaru took his DNA from Kabuto or something, which is absurd). And I can prove to you why scales rely on Orochimaru's chakra and not SM being active:

Now you can stop sending me your baseless post, thanks.



> The manga uses the term "perfect sage".


Depends on the translation.


> The term "imperfect sage" was never used in the manga. You can call it whatever you like, but do not conflate *your interpretation* of what sage mastery means with "imperfection" or whatever because we were never actually told who was an imperfect sage.


Jiraiya wasn't able to completely master it stating that he had frog features as sign. I have mentioned this dozen of times and I will mention it for the final time. Naruto was praised for attaining sagehood without any frog features, which means he perfected it.


> Kabuto is the only perfect sage we know of. Who and what his sage mode is distinctly different and superior to Naruto. (at the time) Therefore any idea that Naruto is "perfect" isn't accurate as we don't know how one qualifies to be a perfect sage.


A perfect sage must master SM fully, unlike Jiraiya which I have already given reason as to why.




> Already did.


 Hopefully you drop that point because you will just make yourself look dumb.




> WHO THE FUCK SAID ALL OF HIS ANIMAL FEATURES ARE A RESULT OF SAGE MODE


I was obviously talking about your dumb scales argument.



> And I'm just pointing out that Kabuto was the only perfect sage, *excluding* Naruto since he mastered toad SM.





> LOL
> 
> No.


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## Zembie (Jul 5, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> I'm not denying that Jiraiya isn't a sage, but the fact remains that he could not strike a perfect balance between natural energy and his own chakra which is why Pa stated that Naruto surpassed Jiraiya. It's flat out shown in Pa's assertion which many have posted already. I'm not going to connect two and two together because people lack reading comprehension.


I've been trying to tell'em that the entire time, finally someone gets it.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 5, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Stop sending me this baseless garbage. Kabuto has scales because he has Orochimaru's DNA which means that Kabuto replenishes Orochimaru's chakra in his body (unless you think Orochimaru took his DNA from Kabuto or something, which is absurd).



Where did you get the idea that Oro's DNA is responsible for his scales?

Oro's doesn't even have scales. He also has the sound 5 DNA but none of their physical traits.



> And I can prove to you why scales rely on Orochimaru's chakra and not SM being active:
> 
> Now you can stop sending me your baseless post, thanks.



I just fucking said - Oro's power comes with scales. SM comes with scales.

Showing him in Boruto with scales doesn't tell us anything. 



> Depends on the translation.



You're the one who brought it up. Either you're riding with it or not. Make a choice.



> Jiraiya wasn't able to completely master it stating that he had frog features as sign. I have mentioned this dozen of times and I will mention it for the final time. Naruto was praised for attaining sagehood without any frog features, which means he perfected it.



And despite this Jiraiya was never called imperfect now was Naruto called perfect.

The frogs do not have a perfect sagehood distinction.



> A perfect sage must master SM fully, unlike Jiraiya which I have already given reason as to why.



And where was the criteria for a perfect sage outlined in the manga?



> Hopefully you drop that point because you will just make yourself look dumb.



Sage mode add scales. And why wouldn't it, it already adds horns.


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## Zembie (Jul 5, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Where did you get the idea that Oro's DNA is responsible for his scales?
> 
> Oro's doesn't even have scales. He also has the sound 5 DNA but none of their physical traits.


BECAUSE HE HAD THEM BEFORE HE EVEN BECAME FULL SNAKE.





> I just fucking said - Oro's power comes with scales.





> SM comes with scales.


Nope.


> Showing him in Boruto with scales doesn't tell us anything.


Naruto gaiden is written and illustrated by Kishimoto. It means he hasn't lost Orochimaru's chakra(which is obviously why he has scales in the first place, since when Orochimaru took his chakra they disappeared) and simply rejuvanized from Orochimaru's dna. He isn't in SM in this pic btw. It's obvious you can't disprove this so admitting that you were wrong is fine.




> You're the one who brought it up. Either you're riding with it or not. Make a choice.


Depends on the translation 




> And despite this Jiraiya was never called imperfect now was Naruto called perfect.
> 
> The frogs do not have a perfect sagehood distinction.





UchihaX28 said:


> Because dragons have horns and snakes do not. The only characteristic that differentiates a Perfect Sage and an imperfect one depends on the type of Sage Mode being used. It's heavily implied in the databook and stated in the manga that resembling a dragon is a sign of mastering Sage Mode in Kabuto/Orochimaru's case* while in Naruto/Jiraiya's case, having the pigmentations whilst avoiding frog-like characteristics was a sign of true mastery.
> 
> I'm not denying that Jiraiya isn't a sage, but the fact remains that he could not strike a perfect balance between natural energy and his own chakra which is why Pa stated that Naruto surpassed Jiraiya. It's flat out shown in Pa's assertion which many have posted already. I'm not going to connect two and two together because people lack reading comprehension.*





> And where was the criteria for a perfect sage outlined in the manga?


Nowhere, but it is the logical conclusion.




> Sage mode add scales. And why wouldn't it, it already adds horns.


Because it doesn't add scales? Are you acting dumb? Just because it adds horns doesn't mean it adds scales. Simple as that.


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 5, 2019)

Zembie said:


> BECAUSE HE HAD THEM BEFORE HE EVEN BECAME FULL SNAKE.



Sigh

How did you determine it was strictly Oro's DNA that gave him scales?



> Nope.



Yes.



> Naruto gaiden is written and illustrated by Kishimoto. It means he hasn't lost Orochimaru's chakra(which is obviously why he has scales in the first place, since when Orochimaru took his chakra they disappeared) and simply rejuvanized from Orochimaru's dna. He isn't in SM in this pic btw. It's obvious you can't disprove this so admitting that you were wrong is fine.



You simply don't understand the argument.

I am saying SM comes with scales, not that there is no other way to achieve scales. He had scales outside of sage mode, he is just more scaley with sage mode and/or he has scales when they disappeared by activating sage mode.



> Depends on the translation



So Kabuto may not be a perfect sage?



> Nowhere, but it is the logical conclusion.



But not actually a thing.

Ok.



> Because it doesn't add scales? Are you acting dumb? Just because it adds horns doesn't mean it adds scales. Simple as that.



He was shown with scales that he previously lost in Sage mode.

Yes he has more scales in Boruto, which is a 10 year timeskip?


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## Zembie (Jul 5, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Sigh
> 
> How did you determine it was strictly Oro's DNA that gave him scales?


Because its obvious? He had them since he absorbed Oro, kapish?





> Yes.







> You simply don't understand the argument.
> 
> I am saying SM comes with scales, not that there is no other way to achieve scales. He had scales outside of sage mode, he is just more scaley with sage mode and/or he has scales when they disappeared by activating sage mode.



Too bad what you are saying is completely baseless. You can think that Rikudou Sennin is the weakest character in Naruto for all I care, doesn't mean that its true.



> So Kabuto may not be a perfect sage?


No, ite means that he may not be a "perfect" sage but a "mastered" or a "true" sage.



> But not actually a thing.
> 
> Ok.


Whatever.



> He was shown with scales that he previously lost in Sage mode.
> 
> Yes he has more scales in Boruto, which is a 10 year timeskip?


When he arrived at Sasuke he had scales because Orochimaru's chakra rejunivates inside of him because he has DNA. Stop with the scales give SM thing.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jul 5, 2019)

I'm curious is it said anywhere that because Jiraiya couldn't perfectly balance Sage Mode that he is less powerful?


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## Trojan (Jul 5, 2019)

whether the scales are because of Oro's power or not is irrelevant. Kabuto does get extra horns, and that's all that needed... 

Otherwise, Jman only gets a bigger nose and whatnot. Based on Kabuto's fanboys logic, then that shouldn't count either...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 5, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I'm curious is it said anywhere that because Jiraiya couldn't perfectly balance Sage Mode that he is less powerful?


Jiraiya definitely did not have complete mastery in terms of balancing the natural chakra with his own. Does this mean his Sage chakra is less potent, and why/why not?



Hussain said:


> whether the scales are because of Oro's power or not is irrelevant. Kabuto does get extra horns, and that's all that needed...
> 
> Otherwise, Jman only gets a bigger nose and whatnot. Based on Kabuto's fanboys logic, then that shouldn't count either...


Kabuto is a perfect sage. He mastered the power. He is also an authoritative character on the subject.

It's not just Jiraiya's extra features, it's the fact Fukusaku implies those extra features was a result of not having complete mastery of the balance. 


*Spoiler*: _410_


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## Trojan (Jul 5, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Kabuto is a perfect sage. He mastered the power. He is also an authoritative character on the subject.
> 
> It's not just Jiraiya's extra features, it's the fact Fukusaku implies those extra features was a result of not having complete mastery of the balance.


yes, extra features are a result of not having a complete mastery of the balance. And Kabuto has those extra things, which means
he does not have a full mastery either. 


It's either one or the other. You can't have it both ways.


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 5, 2019)

Hussain said:


> yes, extra features are a result of not having a complete mastery of the balance. And Kabuto has those extra things, which means
> he does not have a full mastery either.
> 
> 
> It's either one or the other. You can't have it both ways.


We have a comparison for Naruto and Jiraiya. We have a statement explaining Jiraiya didn't fully master it. We see what completed mastery of a _toad sage_ looks like.

On the other hand, a talented scientist-like character who even deciphered Uchiha secrets clearly stated A) He mastered the Dragon Sage power and B) He was a Perfect Sage.

It's not about having it both ways. They are different types of sages; for Kabuto, the horns, rings around his eyes and the slight back mark along his shoulder blades could be _his_ indicator of achieving complete mastery. Other than that, Kabuto's SM didn't particularly have any other noticeable physical features. Naruto gained rings around his eyes and he gained toad-like pupils.


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## Trojan (Jul 5, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> We have a comparison for Naruto and Jiraiya. We have a statement explaining Jiraiya didn't fully master it. We see what completed mastery of a _toad sage_ looks like.
> 
> On the other hand, a talented scientist-like character who even deciphered Uchiha secrets clearly stated A) He mastered the Dragon Sage power and B) He was a Perfect Sage.
> 
> It's not about having it both ways. They are different types of sages; for Kabuto, the horn, rings around his eyes and the slight back mark along his shoulder blades could be _his_ indicator of achieving complete mastery. Naruto gained rings around his eyes and he gained toad-like pupils.


All SM use the same principles. The end result of using it is the same.

Otherwise, why is Kabuto granted the same benefits of SM like Naruto for example?

Is there proof that states snake's SM increases someone's speed or the power of their attacks (Nin, Tai, and Gen)?


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 5, 2019)

Hussain said:


> All SM use the same principles. The end result of using it is the same.
> 
> Otherwise, we is Kabuto granted the same benefits of SM like Naruto for example?
> 
> Is there proof that stats snake's SM increases someone's speed or the power of their attacks (Nin, Tai, and Gen)?


You are correct that their Sage Mode's work in the same principle in that natural energy is added to a user's own energy. There is no reason why Kabuto doesn't gain similar enhancements from senjutsu as Naruto does. Fukusaku explains it quite well in chapter 409. But that doesn't mean they will end up looking the same or have the _exact_ same abilities, since they form different animal contracts.


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## Trojan (Jul 5, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> You are correct that their Sage Mode's work in the same principle in that natural energy is added to a user's own energy. There is no reason why Kabuto doesn't gain similar enhancements from senjutsu as Naruto does. Fukusaku explains it quite well in chapter 409. But that doesn't mean they will end up looking the same or have the _exact_ same abilities, since they form different animal contracts.


They will not end up the same as the marking will be different, but that's as far as the differences go.
Hashirama's SM, for example, has a different marking than Naruto, but he does not get any extra features.

Had it been as you said, then it would have been reasonable for Kishi to either
1- Give Hashirama some extra animal-like features to show that.
2- states that SM from the snakes is slightly different where if you get some extra horns, then that's a proof of your full mastery over it.


Kabuto's statement could (I am saying "could" and not saying that as an absolute fact) mean that he simply can enter SM (which Oro can't) and can use it perfectly fine in a battle. That extra unknown amount of boost might have not been so greatly important for him. 

and it's not unheard off for characters to overestimate their abilities and what they are actually capable off...


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 5, 2019)

Hussain said:


> They will not end up the same as the marking will be different, but that's as far as the differences go.
> Hashirama's SM, for example, has a different marking than Naruto, but he does not get any extra features.
> 
> Had it been as you said, then it would have been reasonable for Kishi to either
> ...


No because I didn't say all SM users gain animal features. It can vary. The reason Kabuto attained perfect Sage mode is because he said he mastered the power. I would think a mastermind like him would know what he's talking about. Plus we don't know for sure if Hashirama gained any other animal feature, perhaps on his body for instance, so he's not a great example here.


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## Trojan (Jul 5, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> No because I didn't say all SM users gain animal features. It can vary. The reason Kabuto attained perfect Sage mode is because he said he mastered the power. I would think a mastermind like him would know what he's talking about. Plus we don't know for sure if Hashirama gained any other animal feature, perhaps on his body for instance, so he's not a great example here.


So, it just so happened that ONLY the snake's SM that is different than the others? 

and I would imagine that Fukasaku who is more than 780 years older than him and have had SM for centries more than Kabuto would also know what he is talking about...  



> perhaps on his body for instance


you are getting desperate at this point...


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 5, 2019)

Hussain said:


> So, it just so happened that ONLY the snake's SM that is different than the others?
> 
> and I would imagine that Fukasaku who is more than 780 years older than him and have had SM for centries more than Kabuto would also know what he is talking about...
> 
> ...


No. Toad sm is different too. Fukusaku did indeed know what he was talking about. Hashirama may have had an additional feature if he had an animal contract too. Nothing you're saying contradicts what I'm saying.

Kabuto was a perfect dragon sage.
Naruto was a perfect toad sage.
Jiraiya was an excellent toad sage but didn't have complete mastery over balancing natural energy with his own chakra.


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## Trojan (Jul 5, 2019)

"he possesses immense chakra despite being over eight hundred years old."



(24 years old)

> he knows better


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## Zembie (Jul 5, 2019)

Why are we mentioning Hashirama's SM when we don't know the nature of it? I admit that I did the same with Mitsuki but I guess I gotta own up to some of my mistakes.


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## Trojan (Jul 5, 2019)

we are mentioning Hashirama to show that SM despite having different marking it does not change the appearance of the user if he was a perfect user of it. Kabuto gets 4 extra horns, which contradicts how a perfect SM works.

Even if we take the extra mile with Six Path Sage mode, for example, Naruto, again, does not get any extra features in his body.
it's farfetched to suggest that only Snake's SM for God knows reasons gets those extra things as a proof of being a perfect SM user, as opposed to all other Sage modes...

Either way, I think we have all said what we have to say. It's unlikely anyone will change their perspective. Might as well wait for any additional information through Mitsuki if we are lucky...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 5, 2019)

Hussain said:


> "he possesses immense chakra despite being over eight hundred years old."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why are you keep saying this as if Fukusaku somehow contradicted something Kabuto said?


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 5, 2019)

Hussain said:


> we are mentioning Hashirama to show that SM despite having different marking it does not change the appearance of the user if he was a perfect user of it. Kabuto gets 4 extra horns, which contradicts how a perfect SM works.
> 
> Even if we take the extra mile with Six Path Sage mode, for example, Naruto, again, does not get any extra features in his body.
> it's farfetched to suggest that only Snake's SM for God knows reasons gets those extra things as a proof of being a perfect SM user, as opposed to all other Sage modes...
> ...


No it doesn't. For all we know, perfect Dragon Sages may gain four horns. Naruto also gained something extra - toad-like eyes. Kabuto, one of the smartest and most knowledgeable characters of his time stated he mastered the power. Fukusaku, or anyone for that matter, never contradicted this.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jul 5, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Jiraiya definitely did not have complete mastery in terms of balancing the natural chakra with his own. Does this mean his Sage chakra is less potent, and why/why not?


No Nature energy has the same potency regardless of who is gathering it. Jiraiya showing frog features means that he was still gathering too much nature chakra. However, Minato still considered Jiraiya the better than him even though Minato's was "perfect". Naruto's Sage Mode is better because of his base. Being that his Chakra has been mixing with the ninetails ever since the day he was born (meaning his chakra was already especially potent) it makes sense that his benefits seem larger. Him being a sage exceeding Jiraiya refers to his ability of balancing the energy.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 5, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> No Nature energy has the same potency regardless of who is gathering it. Jiraiya showing frog features means that he was still gathering too much nature chakra. However, Minato still considered Jiraiya the better than him even though Minato's was "perfect". Naruto's Sage Mode is better because of his base. Being that his Chakra has been mixing with the ninetails ever since the day he was born (meaning his chakra was already especially potent) it makes sense that his benefits seem larger. Him being a sage exceeding Jiraiya refers to his ability of balancing the energy.


Where did Minato say Jiraiya was better than him?


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## SakuraLover16 (Jul 5, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Where did Minato say Jiraiya was better than him?


It was the chapter when they needed a nature energy attack. He also said something about Naruto having Sage Mode and whatnot I believe.


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## Trojan (Jul 5, 2019)

he never said anything about Jman being better than him...


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## SakuraLover16 (Jul 5, 2019)

Hussain said:


> he never said anything about Jman being better than him...


Crying I was wrong  forgive me


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 5, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Which begs the question, why was Naruto praised in surpassing Jiraiya in SM when the power output is the same?


the same reason he surpassed kakashi & minato.
because he is naruto.


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## Edogawa (Jul 5, 2019)

Kai said:


> There's no downplay involved I assure you.



Damn, you one-shotted his thread too quickly

Reactions: Like 2


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 5, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Because its obvious? He had them since he absorbed Oro, kapish?



Here's the problem - Oro isn't scaley.

So why would incorporating Oro's DNA make Kabuto scaley? Kabuto didn't adopt any of the other sound 5 traits even tho he has their DNA.

Not as obvious as you think.

He did implant some of Oro's body into himself, but it manifested differently.



Plus Kabuto had scales *before* he took Oro's chakra from Anko. Kabuto did not have Oro chakra prior to this.



Plus, plus, Sasuke and Anko, who both had Oro's abilities and one literally absorbed Oro (Sasuke) never manifested scales.

I submit that Kabuto's scales are *not the result* of Oro DNA and are actually the result of being the Snake Sage.

Consider that the scales disappear when the sage transformation is released.



They return when in sage mode and Kabuto never get Oro chakra back. Yet in Boruto his scales return. We know that scalyness is not an Oro trait so the only thing that never changed about Kabuto is the fact that he is a snake sage.

Not that it matters as you don't seem to think Kabuto is necessarily a perfect sage so the scales thing isn't relevant to you.



> Too bad what you are saying is completely baseless.



Except it's not. We know Oro doesn't have scales. The other hosts of Oro's power didn't have scales. (Anko/Sasuke) We know Kabuto is the only snake sage. We know the scales disappeared when his sage mode was released. We know Kabuto had scales before absorbing Oro's chakra. There is a legit argument here.



> No, ite means that he may not be a "perfect" sage but a "mastered" or a "true" sage.



Ok, so he isn't a perfect sage but he's the best sage we have seen.

The point is having animal features (not a perfect chakra balance) isn't the defining criteria in sage mastery evidenced by Kabuto.



> When he arrived at Sasuke he had scales because Orochimaru's chakra rejunivates inside of him because he has DNA. Stop with the scales give SM thing.



Kabuto didn't have Oro's chakra until he took if from Anko and also had scales before he had oro's chakra, so this point is not valid.


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## Zembie (Jul 6, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Here's the problem - Oro isn't scaley.
> 
> So why would incorporating Oro's DNA make Kabuto scaley? Kabuto didn't adopt any of the other sound 5 traits even tho he has their DNA.
> 
> ...


>Manifested differently
>Has scales
>Not in SM
What a fucking dumb point, do you even check the page you are sending me?
Kabuto on fucking panel says that he implanted Orochimaru's DNA in his body, showing off his scaly arm.





> Plus Kabuto had scales *before* he took Oro's chakra from Anko. Kabuto did not have Oro chakra prior to this.


Which means that he already has a part of Orochimaru's chakra, mentioning that he has to master Orochimaru's power




> Plus, plus, Sasuke and Anko, who both had Oro's abilities and one literally absorbed Oro (Sasuke) never manifested scales.


None of them implanted his DNA. Anko has her CS+Orochimaru chakra in her seal (which Kabuto praised because he has powerful supply of his chakra, its dumb to think that implanting someone's DNA doesn't give you his chakra, since Madara implanted Hashirama's cells, his chakra mixed in with the cells (that have Hashirama's chakra signature) to attain the Rinnegan. And Sasuke literally absorbed Orochimaru who was still alive and well in his body AND had to suppress with his own chakra.



> Consider that the scales disappear when the sage transformation is released.
> 
> 
> 
> They return when in sage mode and Kabuto never get Oro chakra back. Yet in Boruto his scales return. We know that scalyness is not an Oro trait so the only thing that never changed about Kabuto is the fact that he is a snake sage.


He has his fucking DNA, he always has a part of Orochimaru's chakra since implanting someone's dna gives you his chakra, or else Madara wouldn't have achieved Rinnegan.


> Not that it matters as you don't seem to think Kabuto is necessarily a perfect sage so the scales thing isn't relevant to you.


Kabuto is a perfect sage in my book, just giving you an example of him calling himself something else like a "true sage" and etc. It is obvious that Imperfect SM is a fanmade term but it makes sense given the circumstances.



> Except it's not. We know Oro doesn't have scales. The other hosts of Oro's power didn't have scales.


  Orochimaru does infact have scales, since this is his true form and not the cosmetic one he uses. The other hosts didn't implant his fucking DNA.


> We know the scales disappeared when his sage mode was released. We know Kabuto had scales before absorbing Oro's chakra. There is a legit argument here.


We know Orochimaru took his chakra from him and since he has his DNA his chakra replenishes, giving him back his scaly look.

He also isn't in SM in any of those pics, go figure.


> Ok, so he isn't a perfect sage but he's the best sage we have seen.


I am just giving you different words than perfect.


> The point is having animal features (not a perfect chakra balance) isn't the defining criteria in sage mastery evidenced by Kabuto.


It is tho? Kabuto only got horns and eye-pigmentation. Not fucking scales since I have already disproven this.




> Kabuto didn't have Oro's chakra until he took if from Anko and also had scales before he had oro's chakra, so this point is not valid


.
Having someone's DNA gives you his Chakra, otherwise Madara would have never awakened the Rinnegan because it requires Hashirama + Madara's *CHAKRA.*


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## ShinAkuma (Jul 6, 2019)

Zembie said:


> >Manifested differently
> >Has scales
> >Not in SM
> What a fucking dumb point, do you even check the page you are sending me?
> Kabuto on fucking panel says that he implanted Orochimaru's DNA in his body, showing off his scaly arm.



He's got face scales and his arm is far more scaley (manifests differently) when he grafted Oro's stuff to his body.



> Which means that he already has a part of Orochimaru's chakra, mentioning that he has to master Orochimaru's power



That is a reference to the snake abilities not chakra, otherwise he wouldn't be so hard when he actually receives Oro's chakra from Anko.



> None of them implanted his DNA. Anko has her CS+Orochimaru chakra in her seal (which Kabuto praised because he has powerful supply of his chakra, its dumb to think that implanting someone's DNA doesn't give you his chakra, since Madara implanted Hashirama's cells, his chakra mixed in with the cells (that have Hashirama's chakra signature) to attain the Rinnegan. And Sasuke literally absorbed Orochimaru who was still alive and well in his body AND had to suppress with his own chakra.



He obviously didn't have Oro's chakra, otherwise why would he be so shocked at the potency? (it's completely different/Oro's chakra is truly incredible)

I don't give a shit how much you believe it, it's obvious that gaining Oro's chakra was a new experience for Kabuto implying he does not produce Oro's *chakra* on his own.



> He has his fucking DNA,



He has sound 5 DNA as well. What physical traits does he manifest from them?



> he always has a part of Orochimaru's chakra since implanting someone's dna gives you his chakra, or else Madara wouldn't have achieved Rinnegan.



Two problems here: Hashirama is likely a special case because his power is unique even among the ninja world. Secondly it took like 50 years for Madara to gain any chakra from the Hahsi DNA, meaning it manifests very slowly. So while you can produce chaka from the original host by implanting DNA it doesn't happen fast. Which would explain why Kabuto was so shellshocked by recieving some actual Oro chakra.



> Kabuto is a perfect sage in my book, just giving you an example of him calling himself something else like a "true sage" and etc. It is obvious that Imperfect SM is a fanmade term but it makes sense given the circumstances.



Sure. Then we return to the point that we don't know what makes a perfect sage and that Kabuto, who has animal feature, has this far been the only perfect sage.



> Orochimaru does infact have scales, since this is his true form and not the cosmetic one he uses. The other hosts didn't implant his fucking DNA.



Kabuto has the form as well.

The point is Oro's DNA doesn't promote scales on his normal body.



> We know Orochimaru took his chakra from him and since he has his DNA his chakra replenishes,



Where did you ever get the idea that "Oro's chakra replenishes in Kabuto"? The story itself suggest that Kabuto did not have Oro's chakra by his WTF moment when he actually get Oro chakra.



> giving him back his scaly look.



Or being the snake sage has an outward manifestation of scales



> He also isn't in SM in any of those pics, go figure.



Already covered this.



> I am just giving you different words than perfect.



Either he's imperfect or he's perfect with animal manifestations.



> It is tho?



Yes.



> Kabuto only got horns and eye-pigmentation. Not fucking scales since I have already disproven this.



As Hussain said, the horns are enough. From what we understand the balance isn't perfect hence the manifestation of dragon parts.

The point is even though Kabuto said he is a "perfect sage" he probably isn't if you believe chakra balance if a defining characteristic of perfect sagehood.

However if you don't think the chakra balance is required to be a perfect sage, then he might actually be one and we just don't understand what the criteria is.



> Having someone's DNA gives you his Chakra, otherwise Madara would have never awakened the Rinnegan because it requires Hashirama + Madara's *CHAKRA.*



Yes, DNA+50 years you get some chakra.

Kabuto obviously didn't have Oro chakra in any appreciable manner otherwise he wouldn't be so shocked at the potency when he finally actually receives it.


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## Zembie (Jul 6, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> He's got face scales and his arm is far more scaley (manifests differently) when he grafted Oro's stuff to his body.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Had enough of his fucking chakra to manifest scales tho. And Madara needed 50 years to awaken the Rinnegan not to forge enough of Hashiramas chakra. You literally can't disprove he got scales from Orochimaru. He looked different because only 30% was overtaken. I don't care that you think Hashi is a special case. When someone implants someone else's DNA he gets his chakra as proven by Hashi and Madara. Obviously he didn't have as much Oro chakra as Anko's CS had, that is why he got hard. Kabuto has enough of his chakra to manifest scales. Nothing more or less. We're both not going to agree on the imperfect SM thing so lets call it a day.

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## ShinAkuma (Jul 6, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Had enough of his fucking chakra to manifest scales tho. And Madara needed 50 years to awaken the Rinnegan not to forge enough of Hashiramas chakra. You literally can't disprove he got scales from Orochimaru. He looked different because only 30% was overtaken. I don't care that you think Hashi is a special case. When someone implants someone else's DNA he gets his chakra as proven by Hashi and Madara. Obviously he didn't have as much Oro chakra as Anko's CS had, that is why he got hard. Kabuto has enough of his chakra to manifest scales. Nothing more or less. We're both not going to agree on the imperfect SM thing so lets call it a day.



Fair enough.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zembie (Jul 6, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Fair enough.


I am gonna be having nightmares about scales for days.


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## Artistwannabe (Jul 6, 2019)

Zembie said:


> I am gonna be having nightmares about scales for days.


Honestly how the fuck isn't Kabuto disgusted by himself? If I had this I would be puking left and right, no joke. Yuck.


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## Artistwannabe (Jul 6, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Fetishism.


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## Symmetry (Jul 8, 2019)

Basic scaling shows Jman is not a perfect sage. I try to say this, but anyone I tell this to ghosts me


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## ThirdRidoku (Jul 8, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Basic scaling shows Jman is not a perfect sage. I try to say this, but anyone I tell this to ghosts me



I think that you are right, but there real issue is Kishi's poor writing.

Think about how Jiraiya suspiciously had significant toad like features, and think about how Pain never thought anything of it.  Fast forward to Pain vs SM Naruto, who has no changed features bar the pupils and the pigments around his eyes. Same Type of sage, but vastly different in appearance. Then fast forward to Preta absorbing Naruto's SM and being all surprised that he started transforming into a frog. The fact that Pain < Jiraiya < Naruto in SM mastery is portrayed by this fact. Initially, Naruto's Frog kata also cemented this fact as well, until the databook claimed that Jiraiya also had the ghost punches despite never thinking to use them on Pain. The plot point of nature energy ghost punches was then dropped entirely. 

Then fast forward to war Arc, where Minato claims that Naruto has mastered the same SM as Jiraiya. Then fast forward to Minato asspulling his own "perfect" Sage Mode, which clearly surprassed Jiraiya as he, again, did not have nearly as much frog like features. Why doesn't Minato understand that Jiraiya looks way different compared to himself and Naruto when they all activate SM ( and for the sake of this comparison, ignore Ma and PA being able to fuse with Jiraiya, because they would have done the same to Naruto had the nine tails not interfered).


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