# Dr. Manhattan vs Lucifer (Supernatural)



## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 9, 2012)

*scientist turned Physical God goes up against the Fallen Archangel*




- Doc has both movie and comic feats
- Lucifer has Sam as vessel
- battlefield Earth


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## Gone (Apr 9, 2012)

If Sams vessel being destroyed = Lucifer loses then Doc Manhattan takes it. Otherwise I think Lucifer wins this one.


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## Surtur (Apr 10, 2012)

Lucifer could snap his fingers and explode Manhattan, but he'd just come back.  Likewise Lucifer won't technically be killed by his vessel being destroyed.  Manhattan has the edge though, as Lucifer would need a vessel in order to resurrect Sam.  Even if we said there were people nearby, he has to convince them to let him possess them.

Maybe a stalemate I guess, if Lucifer manages to explode Manhattan before getting blown up himself..then he can just keep doing it every time Manhattan reforms.  I have no idea if Manhattan could reform indefinitely or if he'd eventually be too weak to do so.  If Manhattan wins the quickdraw, then he probably wins since Lucifer can't do much without his vessel.  

I don't think either of them have any concrete speed feats, though Manhattan surely did make claims about his speed..but we never saw it in action.


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## Blade (Apr 10, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> *scientist turned Physical God goes up against the Fallen Archangel*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You thought that this thread will be good?

Is such a thing even possible?

Nope.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 10, 2012)

Can the alien with a jetpack win ? 




> Lucifer could snap his fingers and explode Manhattan, but he'd just come back. Likewise Lucifer won't technically be killed by his vessel being destroyed. Manhattan has the edge though, as Lucifer would need a vessel in order to resurrect someone, and he'd be fresh out. Even if we said there were people nearby, he has to convince them to let him possess them.
> 
> Maybe a stalemate I guess, if Lucifer manages to explode Manhattan before getting blown up himself..then he can just keep doing it every time Manhattan reforms. I have no idea if Manhattan could reform indefinitely or if he'd eventually be too weak to do so. If Manhattan wins the quickdraw, then he probably wins since Lucifer can't do much without his vessel.


what about TV land BFR or time-BFR ?




> since Lucifer can't do much without his vessel.


do we know that ?


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## Shoddragon (Apr 10, 2012)

Lucifer goes back in time and kills manhattan before the accident. that's it.


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## Nevermind (Apr 10, 2012)

That strategy is nulled by a neutral setting. Lucifer can't access Manhattan's past to do that.


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## teddy (Apr 10, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> That strategy is nulled by a neutral setting. Lucifer can't access Manhattan's past to do that.





Fluttershy said:


> -battlefield Earth



Not really a neutral setting, but I agree. 

Besides, can Manhatten work his way out of a timeloop or alternate dimension? If not, then Lucifer has this in the bag.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 10, 2012)

it's kind of a neutral Earth


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## Nevermind (Apr 10, 2012)

I think for once in many, many days, we actually have a decent thread.

I don't know who has the advantage here TBH. Both of them seem pretty evenly matched.


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## Fang (Apr 10, 2012)

Can't Lucifer just possess or mind-fuck Manhattan?


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## Enclave (Apr 10, 2012)

Fang said:


> Can't Lucifer just possess or mind-fuck Manhattan?



Lucifer can only possess somebody who agrees to let them.  That said, Manhattan doesn't have a human physiology so it's unlikely that Lucifer could even possess him even if Manhattan agreed to it.

Regarding the mind fucking, again, Manhattan cannot really be considered human anymore so we don't know how effective Lucifer could be at this.  Not to mention, Lucifer has shown limitations in screwing with peoples minds.

Really, the time travel plan is the best one but even angels are wary about messing with time in the Supernatural verse and you'll note that Lucifer never actually tried to mess with it.

Really, based on what we've seen in Supernatural and what we've seen of Dr. Manhattan I'd probably suspect that Manhattan would win this fight.  If not by just blowing Lucifer up (which does seem to work on Angels and Arch Angels) then by just eventually getting his hands on Lucifers Arch Angel Blade and stabbing Lucifer with it.  I've not seen Lucifer capable of anything that would be able to really hurt Manhattan.


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## Fang (Apr 10, 2012)

He has a mind, he thinks, what else can there be? Unless he has telepathic resistance, Lucifer turns him into a living vegetable.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 10, 2012)

are you referring to the mind-rape from seeing an angels true form or something more like traditional telepathy .. I can't seem to remember feats for the latter

the former could work, but I can't say for certain


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## Shoddragon (Apr 10, 2012)

Enclave said:


> Lucifer can only possess somebody who agrees to let them.  That said, Manhattan doesn't have a human physiology so it's unlikely that Lucifer could even possess him even if Manhattan agreed to it.
> 
> Regarding the mind fucking, again, Manhattan cannot really be considered human anymore so we don't know how effective Lucifer could be at this.  Not to mention, Lucifer has shown limitations in screwing with peoples minds.
> 
> ...



1. Lucifer cannot "posses" anybody. he isn't a demon. what he can do is get someone to agree to let him into their body.

2. actually, that would be perfect for Lucy. human bodies are extremely weak and frail. the only reason people like Sam and Dean are suitable vessels is because of the bloodline, but a strong body should suffice. Recall that Lucifer, like all angels and archangels, have the "vessel" that they reside in and their true forms which are incorporeal. assuming manhattan said yes, he could hop in no problem.

3. being "human" has nothing to do with anything. Lucifer is a master of mental manipulation and has tried it out on everyone from fellow archangels ( gabriel and michael) to humans like sam and Nick ( who he convinced into being his vessel at season 5's beginning no less). He is more than capable of playing mental games with manhattan until he says "yes".

4. the only time that anyone really had trouble with time travel was when angels like castiel were cut off from heaven and such IIRC. otherwise, it was never really an enormous issue. gabriel was time looping sam and dean for what, almost a year? time manipulation for archangels is child's play.

5. you need to understand context. Lucifer snapping his fingers and killing Castiel didn't happen because simply blowing up an angel in their vessel kills them, lucifer killed the vessel AND castiel's true form. angels can kill each other using their swords/knives ( the angel weapons look like shortswords anyway) but as we've seen further, archangels can kill lower tier angels with a touch ( in lucy's case with cas, without one). Unless you wanna show Manhattan killing incorporeal beings he isn't taking down lucifer's true form.

6. except that the arch angel blade has even more power than the Colt. a shot straight to the fucking head didn't actually do shit to lucifer in his vessel yet gabriel's arch angel blade was capable of killing Lucifer ( we know this otherwise lucy woulda just went up to gabe and restrained him outright).


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## hammer (Apr 10, 2012)

cant lucy just do what gabe did to sam or dean like put him in a fucking bad soap opra or groundhog day him


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## Nevermind (Apr 10, 2012)

Lucifer might have a hard time mind raping Dr. Manhattan. Doesn't he have some form of cosmic awareness?


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## Enclave (Apr 10, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> 2. actually, that would be perfect for Lucy. human bodies are extremely weak and frail. the only reason people like Sam and Dean are suitable vessels is because of the bloodline, but a strong body should suffice. Recall that Lucifer, like all angels and archangels, have the "vessel" that they reside in and their true forms which are incorporeal. assuming manhattan said yes, he could hop in no problem.



How do you know he could hop in no problem though?  Manhattan doesn't exactly have what you would normally consider a body.  You cannot even consider him human any more.  How can you even know if his current body is compatible.



> 3. being "human" has nothing to do with anything. Lucifer is a master of mental manipulation and has tried it out on everyone from fellow archangels ( gabriel and michael) to humans like sam and Nick ( who he convinced into being his vessel at season 5's beginning no less). He is more than capable of playing mental games with manhattan until he says "yes".



What's stopping Manhattan from growing tired of said mind games and exploding Lucifer?



> 4. the only time that anyone really had trouble with time travel was when angels like castiel were cut off from heaven and such IIRC. otherwise, it was never really an enormous issue. gabriel was time looping sam and dean for what, almost a year? time manipulation for archangels is child's play.



You think that Lucifer isn't cut off from heaven?  Show me a single instance of Lucifer time travelling.



> 5. you need to understand context. Lucifer snapping his fingers and killing Castiel didn't happen because simply blowing up an angel in their vessel kills them, lucifer killed the vessel AND castiel's true form. angels can kill each other using their swords/knives ( the angel weapons look like shortswords anyway) but as we've seen further, archangels can kill lower tier angels with a touch ( in lucy's case with cas, without one). Unless you wanna show Manhattan killing incorporeal beings he isn't taking down lucifer's true form.



So why couldn't Manhattan do the same?  Angels are energy and Manhattan is rather an insanely proficient energy manipulator.



> 6. except that the arch angel blade has even more power than the Colt. a shot straight to the fucking head didn't actually do shit to lucifer in his vessel yet gabriel's arch angel blade was capable of killing Lucifer ( we know this otherwise lucy woulda just went up to gabe and restrained him outright).



How is the fact that the blade has more power than the colt at all relevant to what I said?



Nevermind said:


> Lucifer might have a hard time mind raping Dr. Manhattan. Doesn't he have some form of cosmic awareness?



Yes in fact, he does.  Manhattan knows his own past and future.


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## Shoddragon (Apr 10, 2012)

1. the compatibility of archangels with vessels is genetic. it is why Nick's body was starting to show signs of fucking up but Lucifer in Sam's body in the future was completely intact. that compatibility simply means that the vessel won't deteriorate because of the power of said archangel because human bodies are extremely weak. manhattan's structure is far stronger than that of a normal human, thus able to handle Lucifer. it's very simple, lucifer inserts himself into manhattan's body, you act like Manhattan's body is going to actually do something to Lucifer's true form when it hasn't shown to affect incorporeal beings.

2. he won't be able to explode lucifer.  even better, Lucifer can just snap his fingers and explode manhattan, this coming from a guy who can kill angels and their incorporeal, true forms with a fucking finger snap. and for extra kicks, Lucifer could just resurrect his vessel with no effort if somehow manhattan's powers could do anything to him.

3. I don't need to show shit :I. it's common fucking sense. it's like asking me " show herald X of galactus destroying a planet" when we know all heralds of galactus can destroy planets. the archangels all have the same powers, but are at different levels of power with Raphael being the weakest and youngest, followed by Gabriel , then Lucifer, and then Michael as the oldest and strongest. mid tier angels like castiel and higher tier angels like zachariah have shown time manipulation and mind fuckery. all angels have this ability and archangels as well. just because Lucifer was cast out by michael doesn't mean suddenly he doesn't have these abilities. consider that he was in The Cage for thousands of years. ever other situation he didn't need to use time manipulation. the plot didn't call for it.

4. because an angel's true form isn't just "energy". even high tier demons like Alistair refer to Castiel and his kind as "celestials". a glimpse of an angel's true form can even burn out the eyes of demons. show me scans of some sort of manhattan manipulating an incorporeal being or concede :I.

5. it's important because the blade is capable of killing incorporeal beings, meaning lucifer has another way to end manhattan besides his own power.


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## hammer (Apr 10, 2012)

considering cas has been shot and stabbed and brushed it off, and we have micheal being molotoved I dont think trying to kill the vessel actually works.


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## Gone (Apr 11, 2012)

There was that one scene where Lucifer was screwing with the mind of his first vessel in order to get him to agree to be possesed. Idk if I would call it mind rape though, and just because it works on Joe Shmuck dosnt mean it will work on Doc Manhattan.


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## Distracted (Apr 11, 2012)

I don't know much about lucifer, but it sounds like Manhattan is being underestimated a bit here.

The doc isn't even human anymore.  He's more of a manifestation of energy that is given consciousness.  If it was Manhattan at the start of the series I'd say that he could possibly have his mind messed with (he was emotionally bothered by the possibility that he was giving cancer to his loved ones.)  But by the end he had become a nigh emotionless calculating machine.

He even claimed to have wanted to go create life of his own somewhere else.  He is one of the most realistic depictions of a god that I've ever seen done in a work of fiction.  He's also able to either move at incomprehensible speeds or manipulate time.

Also, you can't exactly just blow him up considering he could literally create copies of himself that are, for all we can tell, equally powerful.  The fact that he stayed in one form for the majority of the story can be attributed to either his emotional state as a human (preferring to be in one body) or for narrative convenience of the author.

Also, we have to be giving on some of the rules in each universe.  Knowing that angels aren't really damaged by normal human attacks doesn't really mean much to Dr. Manhattan as he's not really effected by them either.  However, he can literally turn matter into energy or even convert matter into other matter seemingly at will.

He could probably deconstruct Lucifer's sword/knife and recreate as many as he wants.  I see no problem with Manhattan being able to find a way to hurt Lucifer in any context as Manhattan is one of the biggest examples of a 'no limits' fallacy in fiction when it comes to this section.  We literally have no idea what his limits are.

At one point he talked about seeing an atom form and burst in the sun or something like that, and yet somehow there's the possibility that too many nukes would be impossible for him to stop (that's just nonsensical at best.)  It could be attribute to the paranoia of Nixon and his cabinet though.

Anyway, I don't know enough about Lucifer.  I'd assume he must be at least on a similar level or on par with Manhattan in pure power.  We'll see how that goes though.


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## Gone (Apr 11, 2012)

Distracted said:


> *He could probably deconstruct Lucifer's sword/knife and recreate as many as he wants.*  I see no problem with Manhattan being able to find a way to hurt Lucifer in any context as Manhattan is one of the biggest examples of a 'no limits' fallacy in fiction when it comes to this section.  We literally have no idea what his limits are.



This is the one part I have an issue with. If Angels were vunerable to silver or some other element then yea I can see the Doc recunstructing it. But theres no evidence to support that he can recreate magic weapons. Lucifer even survived being shot in the head by a gun that can kill anything, with the exception of four living things, Lucifer being one of them. 

Its not a 100% rule, but in a lot of cases magic =/= science, Manhattan might be able to recreate any natural element, but angel blades dont neccisarily follow that rule.


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## Surtur (Apr 11, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> what about TV land BFR or time-BFR ?



Actually possible.  We've seen angels put people in other realities as well.



> do we know that ?



From what we saw Lucifer do without his vessel, he was basically just creating illusions and invading a guys dreams.  We can assume his true voice would cause the same amount of destruction Castiels did, but that isn't enough to kill Manhattan.


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## teddy (Apr 11, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> are you referring to the mind-rape from seeing an angels true form or something more like traditional telepathy .. I can't seem to remember feats for the latter
> 
> the former could work, but I can't say for certain



Zach stripped and replaced Sam and Dean's memories in "It's A Terrible Life"...


*Spoiler*: __ 





> ADLER
> I'm Zachariah.
> 
> DEAN
> ...






Castiel allowed the Winchesters to retain memories from a timeline that was more or less erased in "My Heart Will Go On"...


*Spoiler*: __ 





> EXT. BOBBY'S SCRAPYARD
> 
> (The boys wake up in the Impala. 'My Heart Will Go On' plays on the radio)
> 
> ...






_*Keep in mind that Zachariah and Castiel are ants in comparison to Lucifer._

Then there's whatever the hell Lucifer did to Sam's mind that I refuse to believe is a mere hallucination since the only thing Castiel could do about it was transfer the "hallucination" into his own mind in "The Born Again Identity"...


*Spoiler*: __ 





> INT. – HOSPITAL – DAY
> 
> HALLUCIFER is sitting in a chair next to SAM’s bed, holding the book “Three Little Pigs”.
> 
> ...






They definitely have showings of traditional telepathy.

Regardless of which, I'm still leaning on BFR into another dimension or timeloop from Lucifer.


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## Shoddragon (Apr 11, 2012)

Distracted said:


> I don't know much about lucifer, but it sounds like Manhattan is being underestimated a bit here.
> 
> The doc isn't even human anymore.  He's more of a manifestation of energy that is given consciousness.  If it was Manhattan at the start of the series I'd say that he could possibly have his mind messed with (he was emotionally bothered by the possibility that he was giving cancer to his loved ones.)  But by the end he had become a nigh emotionless calculating machine.
> 
> ...




1. Not really, doctor manhattan's powers are very well known. I don't see any downplaying or underestimation here.

2. he still has a mind and your argument helps Lucifer here. Lucifer can easily use logic and reason to persuade the good Dr. into giving up his body to lucy for some kind of better purpose or such. I'm not sure if the original graphic novel or wherever he comes from is totally different from the movie, but manhattan submitted to the idea that the world government's essentially uniting to blame him for the destruction of major cities would be better for the world since they would have a common enemy. good enough logic CAN get through to him.

3. being a realistic depiction of a god means nothing at all :I. fodder angels can ALSO move incomprehensibly fast. base castiel could move all the way to jerusalem and find a special type of oil in no time at all.  the whole scandal with balthazar and castiel unsinking the titanic involved obvious time manipulation and didn't appear to take a lot of effort. we are talking about someone on the same level of power as Michael, the strongest Archangel. these aforementioned feats are garbage, complete and utter filth compared to the things archangels can do.

4. except that Lucifer and the archangel blades have shown the ability to kill the incorporeal forms of angels and archangels (such as gabriel). that's canon fact, so logically it can kill doctor manhattan.

5.  there are really only two things that have killed angels in the series, angel blades ( or in gabriel's case, an archangels blade)  other archangels/ mutated angel equivalent ( lucifer finger snapping away castiel, God Castiel finger snapping away raphael). it's also assumed God and Death can kill angels. it isn't just "normal humans can't really do anything to them", it's "basically anything but these things can even fucking harm them". I'm also aware of the Dr.s powers.

6. Manhattan can destroy and create weapons powerful enough to kill archangels, weapons that were probably made by god HIMSELF? yea good luck finding the proper evidence to support the claim concretely. he hasn't shown to be able to affect incorporeal stuff. pretty simple :I.

7.doesn't really affect Lucifer's ability to win here.

8.well not in terms of being flashy but powers are somewhat similar. since you really don't know anything about Lucifer, I suggest at least watching season 5 of supernatural and/or watching the episodes featuring Gabriel so you can get an idea of what archangels can do.


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## Distracted (Apr 12, 2012)

Manhattan realized that anything he would do at that point wouldn't be a better solution.  I doubt there is anything Lucifer can say to Manhattan that would convince him that giving up his body would be for 'the better.'  It's just too much of a stretch to me to think you can convince him of that.

As for the weapons, yeah they're made of 'magic' from 'god' but they're still matter of matter or energy of some sort.  I don't see how a guy who can break things down to their subatomic particles and reassemble them at will would have any trouble figuring out what that magic is.


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## Shoddragon (Apr 12, 2012)

Distracted said:


> Manhattan realized that anything he would do at that point wouldn't be a better solution.  I doubt there is anything Lucifer can say to Manhattan that would convince him that giving up his body would be for 'the better.'  It's just too much of a stretch to me to think you can convince him of that.
> 
> As for the weapons, yeah they're made of 'magic' from 'god' but they're still matter of matter or energy of some sort.  I don't see how a guy who can break things down to their subatomic particles and reassemble them at will would have any trouble figuring out what that magic is.



1. except that Lucifer is a master of manipulating minds, average joes like you and me aren't. he isn't some typical punk or something trying to convince some top grade level genius like dr.doom, thanos or Reed richards of something scientific. mind you, this argument itself means nothing to me, convincing manhattan to be his vessel is at the bottom of my "ways lucifer can win" list.

2. no, the issue is that the archangel blades are too "strong" for him to break down. now you're just kinda flopping around with a no limits fallacy.

in real life, yea, energy is energy and matter is matter and blah blah, but this is fiction.

If the silver surfer was right in front of him, would we assume he could manipulate said surfer and his power cosmic? of course not, which is why he has a loss to the surfer here on the OBD.

when dealing with things that can be grouped in with normal energy and matter, sure, you can apply manhattan's powers to it just fine most of the time.

by Lucifer's true form and archangel blade aren't things that can just be grouped in with normal matter and normal energy. one is an incorporeal being and another is a weapon strong enough to kill said incorporeal being.

they operate on different laws. period.

now unless you can go get me some kind of scan or information from the author blatantly showing manhattan messing with things that aren't conventional matter or energy, he doesn't even have a chance in this fight.


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## teddy (Apr 12, 2012)

Distracted said:


> Manhattan realized that anything he would do at that point wouldn't be a better solution.  I doubt there is anything Lucifer can say to Manhattan that would convince him that giving up his body would be for 'the better.'  It's just too much of a stretch to me to think you can convince him of that.



Lucifer should be able to wipe his mind like a clean slate unless Manhatten has some mental defenses that you could show us. Even then, I haven't seen a response for dimensional BFR and timeloops.



> As for the weapons, yeah they're made of 'magic' from 'god' but they're still matter of matter or energy of some sort.  I don't see how a guy who can break things down to their subatomic particles and reassemble them at will would have any trouble figuring out what that magic is.



The weapons are made from an unknown material by a being who, for all intents and purposes, is superior to Manhatten in every sense of the word. Seems unreasonable to assume that he can reassemble an object completely foreign in substance to even his own universe.


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## Distracted (Apr 12, 2012)

Because it's foreign suddenly it is utterly unresponsive to the laws of physics?  That seems to be more of a stretch to me, but like i said I'm arguing out of my ass since i know nothing of Lucifer.

It sounds like in previous posts though that Lucifer doesn't mind rape people.


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## teddy (Apr 12, 2012)

Distracted said:


> Because it's foreign suddenly it is utterly unresponsive to the laws of physics?  That seems to be more of a stretch to me, but like i said I'm arguing out of my ass since i know nothing of Lucifer.



And we're to assume that he can reassemble anything that takes up space? Even if said item is made of an unknown material and completely foreign to his own universe? That's a NLF, and more unbelievable if you ask me.




> It sounds like in previous posts though that Lucifer doesn't mind rape people.



The option is available along with dimensional BFR and timeloops.

That's all that matters.


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## Distracted (Apr 12, 2012)

When I said he doesn't sound like he does it I mean it sounds like he usually gives illusions and tries to mess with people more than he actually fully mind rapes them.

and Manhattan can exist in multiple places at once, see in the future and the past at the same time, and can travel at what seems to be instantaneous speeds.  I think he has some sort of resistance to mind fuckery since he's pretty much only a consciousness at this point.

That's definitely a weakly supported opinion though, so if someone disagrees then I wouldn't really fault them much...

and once again I'm arguing with only knowledge of Manhattan and none on Lucifer.  So I'm inherently biased to his side, I should probably just leave this alone or read Supernatural.

Is Supernatural any good, should I put it on my list of manga to read?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 12, 2012)

since I'm the OP  i would like to mention that this is a neutral Earth in the middle of nowhere which doesn't have anything from Watchmen-Earth or SN-verse


no archangel killing blades unless one of them has feats of producing said items out of his arse w/o prep



it's just Lucifer in Sam's body & the Doc with his big blue snake going full frontal

no equip, no prep







> Is Supernatural any good, should I put it on my list of *manga to read?*




^ I'm sorry for that .. truly



Supernatural is a (currently) 7 season TV show (about supernatural things), it's quality (it has it's ups and downs) and if you like that stuff you should watch it

and it's totally not homoerotic 

 <-- Theatre thread


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## Amae (Apr 12, 2012)

Supernatural's a live-action show and it's good (even S6 and 7 to an extent).

How fast is Dr. Manhattan?


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## teddy (Apr 12, 2012)

Distracted said:


> When I said he doesn't sound like he does it I mean it sounds like he usually gives illusions and tries to mess with people more than he actually fully mind rapes them.



That would probably be the case in a non-bloodlusted scenario.



> and Manhattan can exist in multiple places at once, see in the future and the past at the same time, and can travel at what seems to be instantaneous speeds.



You're standard angel is a multi-dimensional wavelength of divine intent, sees time as a fluid, can teleport, and can freely travel back and forth in time.  



> I think he has some sort of resistance to mind fuckery since he's pretty much only a *consciousness* at this point.



That, in and of itself, is something that tells me that he's susceptible to telepathic assaults. 




> and once again I'm arguing with only knowledge of Manhattan and none on Lucifer.  So I'm inherently biased to his side, I should probably just leave this alone or read Supernatural.



It was good debating with you either way. Even if it short lived. 



> Is Supernatural any good, should I put it on my list of manga to read?



Supernatural is a live-action series with each episode being roughly 45 minutes long without commercials. But it is a really good series to get into.

Season 6 & 7 are a bit of a letdown though.



Fluttershy said:


> since I'm the OP  i would like to mention that this is a neutral Earth in the middle of nowhere which doesn't have anything from Watchmen-Earth or SN-verse
> 
> 
> no archangel killing blades unless one of them has feats of producing said items out of his arse w/o prep
> ...



Mindrape, timeloops, and dimensional BFR put this in Lucifer's favor.


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## Distracted (Apr 12, 2012)

WTF a TV show?  I'm not watching it until it's done then.


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## teddy (Apr 12, 2012)

You sure? I mean the series, is almost done with the seventh season and each episode is roughly _40-45 minutes long_.


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## Lord Genome (Apr 12, 2012)

Distracted you should just start watching it now, its great stuff

It will probbaly end in a season or two anyway


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## Distracted (Apr 12, 2012)

?aby said:


> You sure? I mean the series, is almost done with the seventh season and each episode is roughly _40-45 minutes long_.





Lord Genome said:


> Distracted you should just start watching it now, its great stuff
> 
> It will probbaly end in a season or two anyway



Maybe this summer then.  My problem is that anything I pick up I generally have to finish.  Which is why I'm usually put off by TV shows as the time invested is rather huge.

Compare that to something like Battle Royale manga which I finally decided to read last week.  I knocked that out in about a day and a half.  I can control the pace at which I read things, can't do so much with watching TV.

Then again I did watch all of lost from start to finish in like 2 weeks.  So who knows.  I'll add it to my list though.


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## Gone (Apr 12, 2012)

Distracted said:


> WTF a TV show?  I'm not watching it until it's done then.



Just go watch it on Netflix


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## Surtur (Apr 12, 2012)

There is also an anime based on the first two seasons of Supernatural.  The guy who plays Sam in the series actually also voices Sam in the english dub of the anime.  



Distracted said:


> When I said he doesn't sound like he does it I mean it sounds like he usually gives illusions and tries to mess with people more than he actually fully mind rapes them.



You are indeed correct, he never mind rapes anyone.  He was just showing someone illusions.  Since he was showing illusions that pertained to past events the guy had experienced, it means Lucifer was reading his mind as well.

So the best he could do here would be to try to use past events of Doc's that are traumatic and cause illusions to see if he can distract him or something.  The problem with that is I don't think he didn't seem to care anymore about his previous life.


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## teddy (Apr 12, 2012)

Never watched the anime. Heard it's not as good as the original series.


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## Shoddragon (Apr 12, 2012)

Distracted said:


> Because it's foreign suddenly it is utterly unresponsive to the laws of physics?  That seems to be more of a stretch to me, but like i said I'm arguing out of my ass since i know nothing of Lucifer.
> 
> It sounds like in previous posts though that Lucifer doesn't mind rape people.



>implying angels are bound by the standard laws of physics.
>implying angel weaponry is bound by the laws of physics.
>implying archangels give a shit about physics.


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## Ulti (Apr 20, 2012)

Hmm, neither is killing the other anytime soon so this would come down to exotic abilities and Doctor Manhattan would get fucked over in that catergory.

Giving this to Lucy.


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## Shoddragon (Apr 20, 2012)

The Penetrator;42758237[B said:
			
		

> ]Hmm, neither is killing the other anytime soon[/B] so this would come down to exotic abilities and Doctor Manhattan would get fucked over in that catergory.
> 
> Giving this to Lucy.



archangel blade
snapping his fingers
ripping out manhattan's soul

take your pick, plenty of ways Lucy can kill him.


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## Surtur (Apr 20, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> archangel blade



Kills Manhattan, why?  They're meant to kill angels, doesn't translate to being able to use them to just kill anything.

Besides angels, what else did they kill?  Hellhounds are the only things I can think of, and they aren't on Manhattan's level.



> snapping his fingers
> ripping out manhattan's soul
> 
> take your pick, plenty of ways Lucy can kill him.



Who did Lucifer soul rip?


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## Ulti (Apr 20, 2012)

I think an Archangel blade could probably kill those archangel level and Doctor Manhattan is probably around the level of an Archangel

Though I don't remember Lucifer taking anyones soul but Castiel managed to absorb souls from Purgatory and Hell and Angels seem to be able to have some degree of manipulation of souls so that might be what he means.


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## Judas (Apr 20, 2012)

?aby said:


> Mindrape, timeloops, and dimensional BFR put this in Lucifer's favor.



I'm going to go with this and call it a day.


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## Surtur (Apr 20, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> I think an Archangel blade could probably kill those archangel level



Based off of what though?  They weren't just really powerful swords that happened to be able to kill a wide variety of beings, including angels.

We only saw someone kill hellhounds with the blades, and I don't even think we've ever seen a hellhound get stabbed with a normal blade and be alright, so it's not as if the angel blade was 100% needed.



> Though I don't remember Lucifer taking anyones soul but Castiel managed to absorb souls from Purgatory and Hell and Angels seem to be able to have some degree of manipulation of souls so that might be what he means.



Castiel needed a specific ritual to do so, and Balthazar needed a mortals consent to get his soul.


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## Ulti (Apr 20, 2012)

Erm...Don't know if you remember...But Lucifer kind of stabbed Gabriel with an Archangel blade and y'know killed him.  It would be kind of stupid if an Archangels blade could only kill Archangels and nothing else.

Pretty sure the ritual was just to open the door to purgatory too didn't see him using a ritual to get the souls from hell though they were given to him


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## Surtur (Apr 20, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Erm...Don't know if you remember...But Lucifer kind of stabbed Gabriel with an Archangel blade and y'know killed him.  It would be kind of stupid if an Archangels blade could only kill Archangels and nothing else.



Yes, we saw an archangel killed with the archangel killing blade.

I'm asking you why that translates into being able to kill non-angels.  The swords were never treated as just really powerful swords that could kill a wide variety of supernatural beings with angels being just one of many.  They killed arch angels and they killed hellhounds.

I'm not saying the blades, for instance, couldn't kill any wide variety of characters that also couldn't survive being stabbed with just a normal blade.  I'm saying that it doesn't equate to the blade suddenly being able to kill anything out there that could survive being stabbed with a normal blade.  It wasn't treated as a magical kill anything blade.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 20, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> since I'm the OP  i would like to mention that this is a neutral Earth in the middle of nowhere which doesn't have anything from Watchmen-Earth or SN-verse
> 
> 
> no archangel killing blades unless one of them has feats of producing said items out of his arse w/o prep
> ...



for the record, I also think saying archangel blade can shank Doc is a bit much

but I don't think Luci needs it


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## Ulti (Apr 20, 2012)

Okay fair enough, I'll drop it and let Shoddragon debate the point if he feels like it.

Lucifer still has the edge with exotic abilities though.


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## Navy Scribe (Apr 20, 2012)

Will lucifer die if he loses his intrinsic field?


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## ThanatoSeraph (Apr 20, 2012)

No he will not.


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## Shoddragon (Apr 21, 2012)

Surtur said:


> Kills Manhattan, why?  They're meant to kill angels, doesn't translate to being able to use them to just kill anything.
> 
> Besides angels, what else did they kill?  Hellhounds are the only things I can think of, and they aren't on Manhattan's level.
> 
> ...



false, the angel blades aren't designed to kill angels, they are designed to be an angels fucking weapon since fighting demons and the like would be easier if you could just stab once and kill as opposed to have to get in and just touch them. do you even read supernatural?

why would god make the blades solely for the purpose for angels to kill each other? do you know how fuckretarded that sounds? it just so happens that angel blades are weapons that are strong enough to kill angels, and archangel blades are strong enough to kill archangels.

they are the weapons of the aforementioned creatures, not meant for each other, but they still WORK on each other. this is common sense.

and common sense tells us that if a weapon is strong enough to kill a being in both his vessel and incorporeal form ( including beings like lucifer and michael since they are clearly both susceptible to an archangel blade), it would work on Manhattan. unless of course, you would like to show manhattan being ok from being stabbed by a weapon that can kill incorporeal beings.

yes, because hell hounds aren't exactly the easiest things to kill. there's a reason why the producers felt it necessary for meg to be given an angel blade and not just a gun or something.


Shit tier/mid tier angels like castiel can reach into people ( albeit a painful procedure) and "feel" their soul ( although he has to be delicate or IIRC the soul would explode or something). I don't see why an archangel, especially one on the level of lucifer, couldn't just reach into manhattan and cause his soul to go boom.


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## Banhammer (Apr 21, 2012)

Lucifer casually rapes.
Let's put aside the fact that archangels have a flare for reality warping, and that should he acidentally blow his own brains out, he can just instantly re-form from nothing, it's just a simple matter of point and smite


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## Gone (Apr 21, 2012)

Angel blades have only ever shown the ability to kill other angels and that one feat with the hellhounds. Theres no evidence to support that their like the colt and can just kill anything. They werent even sure if it would work on the Hellhounds IIRC.

It actually makes perfect sense that angels blades were designed to kill other angels, seeing as how angels kill everything els by shooting flashes of light at it or snapping their fingers. They only ever use the swords on each other. Theres no evidence they would work on Manhattan.

Also angels might be able to feel peoples souls, but they cant take peoples souls unless a deal is made. Balthazars arc made that pretty fucking obvious.


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## Banhammer (Apr 21, 2012)

Not to mention, lucifer can just time travel and kill manhattan before he was ever tachioned


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## Shoddragon (Apr 21, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Angel blades have only ever shown the ability to kill other angels and that one feat with the hellhounds. Theres no evidence to support that their like the colt and can just kill anything. They werent even sure if it would work on the Hellhounds IIRC.
> 
> It actually makes perfect sense that angels blades were designed to kill other angels, seeing as how angels kill everything els by shooting flashes of light at it or snapping their fingers. They only ever use the swords on each other. Theres no evidence they would work on Manhattan.
> 
> Also angels might be able to feel peoples souls, but they cant take peoples souls unless a deal is made. Balthazars arc made that pretty fucking obvious.



1. what kind of shitty logic is that? just because it's only killed hellhounds and angels doesn't mean that is all it's limited to. I also never said it was the colt, what I said was that it is capable of killing an angel's incorporeal form, therefore, an archangel blade can kill someone like manhattan, who has shown ZERO defense to weapons that can kill incorporeal beings.

2. that makes no sense at all.  if anything, the angel blade was most likely made in case using their powers was not an efficient method of getting the job done ( perhaps if their powers get disabled or something). seriously, why would God give angels weapons meant just to kill each other does that make sense? generally speaking if an angel or whatever was disobedient they'd be cast out like lucifer or something kinda similar to Anna. i highly doubt God had the whole " well there's gonna be an angel civil war in X millenia, better make a weapon primarly made for my creations just to kill each other" thing going on.

3. besides the fact castiel showed the ability to power up by absorbing souls, he was still able to go inside and feel the souls of some people. Why wouldn't an ARCHANGEL be able to do the same thing but fuck up the soul? I mean it's already been shown that Lucifer and michael can fuck up souls, hence Sam's soul being so fucked up. or did you manage to forget that MAJOR detail, despite the fact that death helped get his soul back and created a wall in sam's mind :I?


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## Surtur (Apr 21, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> false, the angel blades aren't designed to kill angels, they are designed to be an angels fucking weapon since fighting demons and the like would be easier if you could just stab once and kill as opposed to have to get in and just touch them.



If you're close enough to stab someone, then why would simply touching them somehow be more difficult?

Of course, the answer to that question doesn't matter nor does it prove much of anything.



> do you even read supernatural?



No, I do watch it though.  



> why would god make the blades solely for the purpose for angels to kill each other?



Why does god do anything?  Who cares why he does? 



> do you know how fuckretarded that sounds?



Almost as retarded as the word "fuckretarded", yes.  Are you 12 years old?  



> and common sense tells us that if a weapon is strong enough to kill a being in both his vessel and incorporeal form ( including beings like lucifer and michael since they are clearly both susceptible to an archangel blade), it would work on Manhattan. unless of course, you would like to show manhattan being ok from being stabbed by a weapon that can kill incorporeal beings.



So in essence, you have no actual evidence to support the blades could kill Manhattan.  That's really all you needed to say.



> yes, because hell hounds aren't exactly the easiest things to kill. there's a reason why the producers felt it necessary for meg to be given an angel blade and not just a gun or something.



Not a single thing you just said proved much of anything.



> Shit tier/mid tier angels like castiel can reach into people ( albeit a painful procedure) and "feel" their soul ( although he has to be delicate or IIRC the soul would explode or something). I don't see why an archangel, especially one on the level of lucifer, couldn't just reach into manhattan and cause his soul to go boom.



That doesn't translate into a soul rip.  I'm not sure why it would.

At the end of the day, we just have feats of the blades killing angels.  That doesn't equate to being able to kill anything as powerful or less powerful then them.  It equates to being able to kill angels.

We only saw them used on hellhounds, who have zero feats to suggest an angel blade would of been needed.

Seriously, what is with this board and the constant fanwanking of Supernatural?  It's mind boggling that a subject like "Superman vs Goku" is forbidden, but this stuff continues?  This makes me shudder to think what it takes for a topic to end up on the banned list.


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## Sygurgh (Apr 21, 2012)

Can’t Doctor Manhattan make multiple copies of himself all with the same abilities as himself, without any drawbacks other than the fact that it goes against the remnants of his human nature?


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## Shoddragon (Apr 21, 2012)

Surtur said:


> If you're close enough to stab someone, then why would simply touching them somehow be more difficult?
> 
> Of course, the answer to that question doesn't matter nor does it prove much of anything.
> 
> ...




jesus christ this is like arguing with a 5 year old who keeps going "LALALALALALALALALAA".

1. Fuck if I know. but it makes a lot more sense than making a weapon solely for the purpose of killing other angels. and the answer to the question does matter because you have the ludicrously misguided idea that angel weapons are  made primarily for use again other angels. Castiel even pointed out that demons and angels were skirmishing around the world. did you forget that castiel couldn't kill Alistair just by touching him? makes sense to keep a blade around that can kill high tiers demons and such when your normal powers don't cut it.

2. that was kind of a typo, my bad, I meant watch >_>.

3. you completely dodged the question, way to go.

4. ad hominems now? my my, the skills of a top tier debater no less 

5. this is bordering on trolling now. I just pointed out clear cut evidence that angel weaponry, especially archangel blades, can kill intangible, incorporeal beings like Gabriel and his true form. beings that can warp reality, fuck around with time as child's play, and more. and to you that isn't enough evidence that an archangel blade can kill manhattan? are you shitting me? I've been asking for counter evidence showing that manhattan can survive a weapon that can kill incorporeal beings on his level of power or higher and not only have you not brought any, you've COMPLETELY AVOIDED said topic. just so you don't conveniently "forget",

*SHOW ME MANHATTAN SURVIVING A WEAPON THAT CAN KILL INCORPOREAL BEINGS LIKE GABRIEL*

6. my point is that quite frankly, with the exception of other hell hounds, the only thing that's put down hellhounds is the colt, and angel blades ( perhaps the demon killing knife as well at one point? although I don't recall if that did happen or not).

7. are you shitting me? you didn't even bother attempting to debunk my point. you basically just said "I disagree but I have no evidence to support my opinion".  if castiel can accidentally make a soul go boom, what do you think a high tier archangel like lucifer can do? seriously.

because even shit tier archangels like raphael are far above even angels like zachariah.


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## Gone (Apr 21, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> 1. what kind of shitty logic is that? just because it's only killed hellhounds and angels doesn't mean that is all it's limited to. I also never said it was the colt, what I said was that it is capable of killing an angel's incorporeal form, therefore, an archangel blade can kill someone like manhattan, who has shown ZERO defense to weapons that can kill incorporeal beings.



There is no evidence to show that an angel blade can hurt Manhattan. First of all hes not incorporeal, he may be able to go intangible, but thats not the same thing. So even if it would hurt any incorporeals (which there is no evidence of anywhere) that dosnt mean it can kill Manhattan.



> 3. besides the fact castiel showed the ability to power up by absorbing souls, he was still able to go inside and feel the souls of some people. Why wouldn't an ARCHANGEL be able to do the same thing but fuck up the soul? I mean it's already been shown that Lucifer and michael can fuck up souls, hence Sam's soul being so fucked up. or did you manage to forget that MAJOR detail, despite the fact that death helped get his soul back and created a wall in sam's mind :I?



Sams soul was down in there for a year, so going by the 1 month in Hell = 10 years in the real world formula, it took them 120 years to mess with Sams soul. Death himself actually said that the human soul was more resiliant than anybody knew, that he couldnt cut it.



> 6. my point is that quite frankly, with the exception of other hell hounds, the only thing that's put down hellhounds is the colt, and angel blades ( perhaps the demon killing knife as well at one point? although I don't recall if that did happen or not).



Actually they killed some by blowing them up with salt and iron bolts when Ellen and Joe died. 

For the record I agree with you, Lucifer would beat Manhattan, but your argument that an Angel blade can kill Manhattan is flawed. Just because its shown the ability to kill angels while their *in a human vessel*, does not mean they can hurt any non corporeal being (and again manhattan isnt a non corporeal).

Lucifer could probably mind fuck Manhattan, he could BFR him into the past or future or a pocket dimension, reality warping, or just go into the past and kill him while hes still just some lab geek.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Apr 21, 2012)

Manhattan's consciousness while not in his body would appear to be incorporeal. He rebuilds his body by creating/modifying matter in the right order.


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## Gone (Apr 21, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Manhattan's consciousness while not in his body would appear to be incorporeal. He rebuilds his body by creating/modifying matter in the right order.



Is he even consious when his body is not together? IIRC his memory of that time was a bunch of random flashes of his body being pieced together at random times. It could just be that his atoms get drawn back to each other absent consiousness.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Apr 21, 2012)

Well, I don't have the Graphic Novel with me right now, but IIRC, he mentions piecing it back together. Also, if it was just atoms being drawn back to each other, Manhattan would have taken a lot longer to regenerate after Ozzy removes his intrinsic field again. A more experienced Manhattan reforming his body nearly instantly suggests conscious input.


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## Gone (Apr 22, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Well, I don't have the Graphic Novel with me right now, but IIRC, he mentions piecing it back together. Also, if it was just atoms being drawn back to each other, Manhattan would have taken a lot longer to regenerate after Ozzy removes his intrinsic field again. A more experienced Manhattan reforming his body nearly instantly suggests conscious input.



Even if he does have a non corporeal presence, the angel blades pretty blatantly need a physical form to peirce in order to work, since they themselves are physical. Hellhounds are invisible but pretty obviously corporeal, Angels may be incorporeal, but the angel blades have only ever peirced them while their possesing a vessel. And even their true forms are still technically a from, even if its made out of energy.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Apr 22, 2012)

Yeah, I don't know how Archangel blades work well enough so I'm not touching that. Just clearing some stuff up.


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## Amae (Apr 22, 2012)

Can harm non corporeal beings yet needs a physical form to pierce to do such damage. If you aren't following, that makes zero sense.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Apr 22, 2012)

Well, it could be that it's the link that the vessels have to the actual angels that let's that happen.

I don't know enough to say, I'm just suggesting possibilities.


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## Gone (Apr 22, 2012)

Well a lot of times in fiction non corporeals still have a presence that you can see, like the first evil from Buffy, or ghosts in most fictions. But Doc Manhattan dosnt have anything that you can see when his body isnt together, so how does one even pierce that with an angel blade just swing around at empty space? The angel blade is a physical object, it has to actually be stabbing or cutting in the right direction.

And we have never seen it harm non corporeals really. Its hurt angels while their possesing a vessel, but I dont even know if they have the swords outsife of their vessels. Tbh I think they might just be a physical manifestation of the angels power.

Like I said this whole argument about angel blades being able to hurt non corporeals is kind of stupid, weve only ever seen them kill angels and hellhounds. Of course it would hurt angels, its an angel weapon, being immune to so much els lf course they would want a weapon that would work against other angels. And hellhounds are not incorporeal.


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## Amae (Apr 22, 2012)

If they're being killed entirely (they are), their noncorporeal form is being directly harmed by the blade. Simply killing the vessel does nothing to their true form. It doesn't get any clearer than that. Being a physical object doesn't mean it's restricted to only affecting matter. Given Lucifer's very nature, his telepathy, and probably other things I'm not citing, he'll be able to "see" Manhattan just fine. 

He doesn't have or need it in this fight, anyway.


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## hammer (Apr 22, 2012)

what do we consider reapers and death as in SN because humans cant see them but angels can.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 22, 2012)

glad to see everyone ignored my post about those archangel blades .. twice


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## Gone (Apr 22, 2012)

Reapers and stuff like that are still a non corporeal presense, Manhattan is mor elike a consiousness. And a weapon designed specifically to kill angels, killing an angel dosnt mean it can hurt any noncorporeal.

And not every noncorporeal is the same. The angels non corporeal form may be being harmed by the blade, but its still being stabbed into a physical body which their etheral form is tied to. Demons are non corporeal but they can still be trapped and hurt in their vessels by things which wouldnt effect their true forms. I kinda doubt that fireing the colt into their black smoke cloud would kill them (in fact I think Sam may have done that to Azazel once) but it puts them down if their tied to their vessel.

As made pretty evident by John Winchester trying to keep Azazel inside himself so Sam could kill him, knowing that as soon as he smoked out he would be untouchable.


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## hermanokeson (Apr 22, 2012)

Is this a joke thread? Archangels are far above being such as dr manhattan, Gabriel the youngest of the ArchAngels casually warp reality, and Lucifer being ALOT stronger who also stated that he taught Gabriel all his tricks, wont have a problem blinking manhattan out of existance.


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## Chuck (Apr 23, 2012)

Doc destroys the planet and Lucifer loses by technicalities since there's no evidence he can fight in his angel form (other than mind trick him into letting Doc be possessed by him)





hermanokeson said:


> Is this a joke thread? Archangels are far above being such as dr manhattan, Gabriel the youngest of the ArchAngels casually warp reality, and Lucifer being ALOT stronger who also stated that he taught Gabriel all his tricks, wont have a problem blinking manhattan out of existance.



wasnt Raphael the youngest??


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## Gone (Apr 23, 2012)

Idk why people seem to think that Raphael is the only other archangel besides Lucy, Mike, and Gabe. IIRC Castiel said that every prophet has an archangel watching their back.


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## Judas (Apr 23, 2012)

The Flying Chuck said:


> Doc destroys the planet...



Nope.

Never done anything near that scale.

Lucifer still wins via mindfuck, dimensional BFR, or timeloop.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 23, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> Idk why people seem to think that Raphael is the only other archangel besides Lucy, Mike, and Gabe. IIRC Castiel said that every prophet has an archangel watching their back.



That was probably Raphael dude. We were explicitly told there were 4 of them and Micheal wasn't interacting with humans at that point.


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## Gone (Apr 23, 2012)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> That was probably Raphael dude. *We were explicitly told there were 4 of them* and Micheal wasn't interacting with humans at that point.



When was this? I remember Anna said that only 4 angels had ever actually seen God, but I dont remember anybody saying that there were only 4 archangels, nor for that matter if Raph was one of the four Anna was speaking of. Tbh I always thought the fourth one was that guy Joshua.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 23, 2012)

we will be having 2 more archs soon and I really doubt they will be any of the 4 currently known


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Apr 23, 2012)

That's just dumb  We should have heard about them during Castiel's war. Lazy writing FTW


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## Judas (Apr 23, 2012)

Do we really need more Archangels though?


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## Banhammer (Apr 23, 2012)

Hello Manhattan
Have you met my friend death?


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## Shoddragon (Apr 23, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> we will be having 2 more archs soon and I really doubt they will be any of the 4 currently known



Really? 2 new arch angels seems weird. Gabriel established that they were born :

Michael, Lucifer, then Gabriel, and Lucifer got jealous of the "new baby" (Raphael) who was born last, which is why Raphael was the weakest.

where the fuck would two new archangels fit in, and where the hell were they not mentioned or involved in the heaven civil war?


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## Shoddragon (Apr 23, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> There is no evidence to show that an angel blade can hurt Manhattan. First of all hes not incorporeal, he may be able to go intangible, but thats not the same thing. So even if it would hurt any incorporeals (which there is no evidence of anywhere) that dosnt mean it can kill Manhattan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




destroying an angel's vessel won't even harm their true, INCORPOREAL form ( aka,  a "multidimensional wavelength of celestial intent"). being stabbed with the archangel blade killed gabriel's vessel and true form. the blades have shown the ability to kill incorporeal beings. period.


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## Tranquil Fury (Apr 23, 2012)

> Michael, Lucifer, then Gabriel, and Lucifer got jealous of the "new baby" (Raphael) who was born last, which is why Raphael was the weakest



New Baby=humans, Lucifer hates humans("Father these creatures are flawed and murderous" his whole rebellion was because he refused to bow to humans) not angels. I thought Gabriel was born last, anyway bad writing it is but God probably made them. They are very likely as bad as Raphael, Zachariah and the other dick angels we know but we'll see.


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## Shoddragon (Apr 23, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> New Baby=humans, Lucifer hates humans("Father these creatures are flawed and murderous" his whole rebellion was because he refused to bow to humans) not angels. I thought Gabriel was born last, anyway bad writing it is but God probably made them. They are very likely as bad as Raphael, Zachariah and the other dick angels we know but we'll see.



hmmm I know his whole hate of humans but I thought the language he was using referred to Raphael. tho I guess what you said makes perfect sense as well although gabe's speech still leads to him, lucifer and michael only being alive at the time. I still think raphael is the weakest.


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## Ulti (Apr 23, 2012)

The summary alone has confirmed them to be dicks.


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## Gone (Apr 24, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> hmmm I know his whole hate of humans but I thought the language he was using referred to Raphael. tho I guess what you said makes perfect sense as well although gabe's speech still leads to him, lucifer and michael only being alive at the time. I still think raphael is the weakest.



Raphael had nothing to do with the other three really, I dont even think any of them ever mentioned him by name. It sounds like you guys are making too big a deal out of archangels. I frankly took archangels to be kind of like the elite angels, nothing more. So in terms of power it would go

Lucy, Mike, Gab > Archangels > Normal angels.

Raphael isnt in the same teir as the other three at all, I frankly just took him to be one of many archangels, none of which are like the three named angels from the Bible (Lucifer, Michael, Gabriel).



> destroying an angel's vessel won't even harm their true, INCORPOREAL form ( aka, a "multidimensional wavelength of celestial intent"). being stabbed with the archangel blade killed gabriel's vessel and true form. the blades have shown the ability to kill incorporeal beings. period.



Yes it hurts their incorporeal form, but only while it was possesing a human vessel. The colt can harm incorporeals too (demons) but they still pretty obviously have to be inside a human body for it to work. If Dr. Manhattan has an incorporeal presence (which Im not saying he does) then it would be a disembodied consiousness, it wouldnt have some etheral form like a ghost or something that Lucifer can stick the blade in.

The show makes it pretty obvious that their designed to kill angels, they killed Hellhounds that one time, but nobody was even sure it would work IIRC. There is 0 evidence to support the angel blade being able to kill Manhattan, plz stop harping on that. Especially since there are half a dozen other ways Lucifer can win that actually make sense.


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