# Abeloth vs Revan



## Fang (Jun 22, 2012)

How does this go?


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## Lord Stark (Jun 22, 2012)

Isn't Abeloth said inverse to be as powerul if not more powerful than Luke?  If so then this is an unholy stomp.


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## Fang (Jun 22, 2012)

Just like Vitiate is compared to Revan or Windu yet that didn't stop your arguments.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Jun 22, 2012)

Abeloth takes it. She has a speed advantage, better hax, much higher DC etc.


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## Lord Stark (Jun 22, 2012)

Fang said:


> Just like Vitiate is compared to Revan or Windu yet that didn't stop your arguments.



Vitiate's feats:
Absorbing a hundred Sith Lords (WITH PREP)
Mind dominating Jedi Knight Revan and Malak (Cool)
Mind dominating Jedi Master Tol Braga...Oh wait Braga broke free. 
Jedi controlling the Jedi Knight...he was weaker at the time.
Defeating Tol Braga, who fought a Sith Lord for 12 days straight.  (Not bad)
Losing to the Jedi Knight at a Dark Side nexus.  (Not great)
Nearly getting killed by the _Jedi Exile_ who cannot even best a Dark Council member even with Scourge's help.  
Getting trapped by Sel Makor (Lol)
Getting put on his Sith behind twice by Revan.  
Defeating Revan.

And just to quote you...are you saying Vitiate is as strong as Abeloth?


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## Fang (Jun 23, 2012)

Wrong.

He didn't need prep to eat the souls of the hundred Sith Lords, he needed prep to life wipe his homeworld and become immortal. Revan himself confirms his next encounter that the Emperor doesn't need any prep to perform those feats and can do them at will by himself.

He never lost to the Jedi Knight in the former's story route and he never was put on his ass. And of course he is.

Your knowledge of Star Wars is awful.


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## Lord Stark (Jun 23, 2012)

Fang said:


> Wrong.
> 
> *He didn't need prep to eat the souls of the hundred Sith Lords, *he needed prep to life wipe his homeworld and become immortal. *Revan himself confirms his next encounter that the Emperor doesn't need any prep to perform those feats and can do them at will by himself.*


Prove the bolded.
He mindfucked them.  That won't work against a seasoned Jedi Master Tol Braga proved this.  
And prove this.  Because in SWTOR it's rather clear he needs time to perform the ritual.  Otherwise he would have just hyper spaced into Belsavis and eat the world Nihilus style.  


> He never lost to the Jedi Knight in the former's story route and he never was put on his ass. And of course he is.


Yes he did.  If he could have killed the Jedi Knight there is no reason he would hold back.  The Sith Emperor is more powerful that Abeloth.  Bullshit.  He's not even as strong as ROTS Sidious.  



> Your knowledge of Star Wars is awful.



Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord in history, stated multiple times in the mythos.
Yoda is and I quote from the ROTS novel the most devastating foe darkness has ever known as of 19 BBY.  
Mace Windu is on the level of both of them.
Never, not once has Vitiate ever been mentioned in the same breath as them.  
If you think that Vitiate is more powerful than Palpatine you are shitting yourself.  Darth Sidious and Darth Plagueis shifted the force itself through mediation.  No force user in history has ever contended with the force itself.

Aside from a statement by the Exile that Revan is > Nihilus.  The Emperor has shown me nothing more impressive than Darth Nihilus' multi-million ton TK, and his obliteration of a world with a word.


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## Nevermind (Jun 23, 2012)

Given that this thread seems to have already been decided in favor of Abeloth, I have a SW-related question for a video I want to make. Out of the three notable video game protagonists- Revan, Starkiller, and Katarn, who is the strongest?

Willy suggested it was Revan.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jun 23, 2012)

>Bringing up Vitiate out of nowhere
>Completely getting away from the main topic
>Revan being stronger than Nihilus
>Making claims that Revan put Vitiate on his ass

justanotherdayintheobd.jpg


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## Lord Stark (Jun 23, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Given that this thread seems to have already been decided in favor of Abeloth, I have a SW-related question for a video I want to make. Out of the three notable video game protagonists- Revan, Starkiller, and Katarn, who is the strongest?
> 
> Willy suggested it was Revan.



Probably Starkiller, considering he can fry AT-ATs with force lightning.  disintegrate people with Force Push, move Star Destroyers with his mind, rag doll a force monster like Darth Vader, and catch Palpatine's lightning.




Darth Nihilus said:


> >Bringing up Vitiate out of nowhere
> >Completely getting away from the main topic
> >Revan being stronger than Nihilus
> >Making claims that Revan put Vitiate on his ass
> ...



The Exile says Revan is the most powerful force user she ever encountered.  I think Nihilus is> Revan (especially considering Nihilus' mask was initially supposed to be Revan's skull )

Again.  I am not saying Revan beat Vitiate, all he did was knock him over.  That's not even a dispute.  He did it twice, once batting away his lightning back at him, and the next when he unleashed the light and the dark against him.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jun 23, 2012)

>Making claims that Revan put Vitiate on his ass
>Making claims that he merely knocked Vitiate over
>Changing your argument at the drop of a hat
>Apparently Revan > Nihilus because the Exile says so 

gamelwithchips.gif


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## Lord Stark (Jun 23, 2012)

Darth Nihilus said:


> >Making claims that Revan put Vitiate on his ass
> >Making claims that he merely knocked Vitiate over


What is the difference between putting someone on their ass and knocking someone over?  Both end up with the person on their behind.


> >Changing your argument at the drop of a hat


I didn't.


> >Apparently Revan > Nihilus because the Exile says so


Considering the Exile is a force sensitive who has sensed both of their powers.  Yes.  Why would the Exile lie?
If the author wanted Nihilus to be stronger he would have said.
'Revan was the strongest Jedi she had ever felt.'
or
'Revan was powerful, nearly as powerful as Darth Nihilus after he absorbed the world of Katarr.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jun 23, 2012)

>Making claims that Revan put Vitiate on his ass
>Changing your argument at the drop of a hat
>Claiming Revan being stronger than Nihilus
>Claiming ROTS Palpatine is stronger than Vitiate
>Using the same ad nauseum argument repeatedly

gamelwithchips.gif


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## Lord Stark (Jun 23, 2012)

Darth Nihilus said:


> >Making claims that Revan put Vitiate on his ass


He did.  

"There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. *The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan's mind, was sent flying backward."*
He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him. The Emperor rolled over, lifted himself up on one knee, and his hands flew forward as he hurtled a bolt of dark side lightning at his enemy.
Revan intercepted the bolt with the blade of his lightsaber, though the impact stopped his charge dead in its tracks.

The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third back in the direction of its source.

*It struck the Emperor in the chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor. 
*
For the first time the Sith’s emotionless veneer cracked as he let out a primal hiss of hate. The sound sent shivers down Revan’s spine.

The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him."

In what way was the Emperor not put on his ass 




> >Changing your argument at the drop of a hat
> >Claiming Revan being stronger than Nihilus


"She still wasn’t sure what to make of Lord Scourge. She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan’s doing. *It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan’s command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met*. And she knew how charismatic he could be."



> >Claiming ROTS Palpatine is stronger than Vitiate
> >Using the same ad nauseum argument repeatedly
> 
> gamelwithchips.gif



Hmm, last I checked Vitiate never destabilized the galactic entity known as the force and shifted it to the Dark Side.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jun 23, 2012)

> There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up.  The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. *The  Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind*, was sent flying backward.



gamelwithchips.gif


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## Lord Stark (Jun 23, 2012)

Darth Nihilus said:


> gamelwithchips.gif


Not that it matters considering he was on his ass but just for shits. 

"*It struck the Emperor in the chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor. 
*"
Was he unprepared then too?  No.

Oh and you conveniently ignoring that the Exile outright states that Revan is the most powerful force user she has ever met.  _Including Nihilus._
Also as for Vitiate being more powerful than Sidious 
"The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side."


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## Fang (Jun 23, 2012)

So again the quotes prove him wrong? Knew it, Lukewithchips.gif


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## Darth Nihilus (Jun 23, 2012)

>ROTS Sidious
>Shifting the Force in favor of the dark side
>Revan being stronger than Nihilus
>Exile being a Wound in the Force
>Canceling out Nihilus' power
>Visas Marr
>Claiming that Revan > Nihilus

gamelwithchips.gif


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## Lord Stark (Jun 23, 2012)

Fang said:


> So again the quotes prove him wrong? Knew it, Lukewithchips.gif



 Are you blind?  The Emperor tried to dominate Revan's mind only to have himself hurled back.  Then he tried to force lightning Revan four times, all times he was unsuccessful and the last time he got pushed back several meters from his own redirected lightning.  The Emperor underestimated Revan and got put on his ass for it.  And I love how neither of you address that even as of TPM, Sidious and Plagueis was able to go toe to toe with a galactic force entity for months _and come out on top_.
So much for Vitiate being stronger.


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## Lord Stark (Jun 23, 2012)

Darth Nihilus said:


> >ROTS Sidious


Please post proof of ROTS Sidious being weaker than his Plagueis incarnation.  



> >Shifting the Force in favor of the dark side


Shrouding the entire galaxy in the Dark Side, and being the only Sith in history to wage war against the Force itself _and win_.  


> >Revan being stronger than Nihilus


"Revan’s command of the Force was greater than that of *anyone* else she had ever met"


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## Darth Nihilus (Jun 23, 2012)

>Vitiate too busy trying to dominate Revan's mind
>Revan taking advantage of the situation
>Vitiate sent flying to the ground 
>Does nothing
>Vitiate arcs Force Lightning towards Revan
>Revan's flesh melting and boiling

gamelwithchips.gif


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## Lord Stark (Jun 23, 2012)

Darth Nihilus said:


> >Vitiate too busy trying to dominate Revan's mind
> >Revan taking advantage of the situation
> >Vitiate sent flying to the ground
> >Does nothing
> ...



Vitiate scored three successful attacks against Revan. The first was due to his charge; the second was the result of Revan deliberately allowing Vitiate to conjure his lightning storm and, worse, arrogantly trying to channel the energies barehanded; and the third was because of a critical distraction facilitated by Scourge's unforeseen betrayal. 

In what way did Vitiate dominate Revan?

Also as for the Emperor consuming the Sith Lords we have no idea how that went down.  
Revan novel page 256
"I cannot guarantee the truth of this story," Nyriss admitted


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## Es (Jun 23, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Given that this thread seems to have already been decided in favor of Abeloth, I have a SW-related question for a video I want to make. Out of the three notable video game protagonists- Revan, Starkiller, and Katarn, who is the strongest?
> 
> Willy suggested it was Revan.



I think Revan has the advantage seeing how he made the Rakata on Lehon able to comprehend Basic with his mind. Kyle would likely be second.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jun 23, 2012)

>I cannot guarantee the truth of this story 

debunkedwithchips.gif

>Evidence of Vitiate dominating Revan

forcelightningwithchips.gif


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## ThanatoSeraph (Jun 23, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Given that this thread seems to have already been decided in favor of Abeloth, I have a SW-related question for a video I want to make. Out of the three notable video game protagonists- Revan, Starkiller, and Katarn, who is the strongest?
> 
> Willy suggested it was Revan.



Probably Revan, as he was able to forcefully implant information into the minds of all the Rakata. Also, while he did get his ass kicked, going toe to toe against Vitiate is still pretty impressive. Kyle might come second, although I'm not as sure about that.


EDIT: Or basically what Es said.

Starkiller might have an advantage in pure telekinetic power though. However, with his Star Destoyer feat, the Star Destroyer was already crashing, so that feat isn't as impressive as it seems at first glance.


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## Fang (Jun 24, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Given that this thread seems to have already been decided in favor of Abeloth, I have a SW-related question for a video I want to make. Out of the three notable video game protagonists- Revan, Starkiller, and Katarn, who is the strongest?
> 
> Willy suggested it was Revan.



Probably Kyle Katarn if you allow his feats when immersed in the Valley of the Jedi's power. 



			
				Qu Rahn said:
			
		

> Jerec, the man who murdered your father, is a great evil. He searches for the location of a sacred place, *the Valley of the Jedi. The Force of thousands of Jedi is trapped here. If Jerec captures this power, he will be a creature such as the universe has never seen. A supernova of stars in a fleeting thought—the eradication of life from a star system in a whisper—will be within his power.*



When you consider his and Jerec's temporary power up from the Valley of the Jedi, the novelization states that even a simple fraction of its power would allow a powerful Force-User to become omniscient, wipe out star systems at will, and be an unstoppable force. Fortunately for the galaxy, Katarn and Jerec used this power solely against one another when only having a mere fraction of it and Jerec was stopped from turning into a virtual God.

Outside of that, Kyle is the weakest though in the novels he's powerful enough to be a decent challenge to Caedus. And would've put more pressure on the Sith Lord if not for having to baby sit half a dozen Jedi Knights and apprentices with him so they wouldn't get cradle-stomped by Caedus as soon as he wanted to wreck them.

Otherwise Revan is the most well-rounded, advanced telepathy, some form of Battle-Meditation, ridiculous precognitive powers, and sword and other Force abilities. Then Galen Marek/Starkiller I because of his TK and stupid uber powers like leaping from his girlfriend's starship through the incomplete first Death Star's superstructure, dozens if not hundreds of kilometers with no problem to land on his feet just fine.

Back to the discussion: Unheard of levels of wank from Mizukage since his claim that the average Jedi in PT > Nihilus or Malak. Its so fucking laughable for anyone to make the claim that RoTS time frame Sidious or even Plagueis at his best is > Vitiate.


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## Lord Stark (Jun 24, 2012)

Darth Nihilus said:


> >I cannot guarantee the truth of this story
> 
> debunkedwithchips.gif



The story we hear is from Nyriss who says specifically that she cannot verify the story.  Revan only says that it is confirmed that Vitiate killed his father.  Big whoop.



> >Evidence of Vitiate dominating Revan
> 
> forcelightningwithchips.gif



Suddenly empty handed the Emperor took a quick step back, his attention had been focused solely on Revan.  Meetra’s trick had caught him by surprise.  
*Scourge realized that if she had aimed at the Emperor instead of the blade she could have ended his life even as he ended Revan’s.*  But her instincts to save her friend overrode her desire to kill her enemy and Scourge could only lament the lost opportunity. 
*Sensing hesitation and uncertainty *in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strength and weaknesses of his new foe, Scourge rushed forward to join Meetra and Revan. 

"Meetra gasped and toppled forward, dead before she hit the floor. Revan’s head snapped to the side, shock and horror emanating from him even though his mask hid his expression. The distraction gave the Emperor the opportunity *he needed,* and he unleashed another blast of lightning into the Jedi’s chest."

*He saw both Revan’s triumph and defeat in the throne room.*  He saw variations of his own life and death played out over and over in every conceivable way shape or form.  *He had no way to determine the most likely outcome.  
*

Sorry where exactly does it say the Emperor's victory was assured against Team Revan?


> Back to the discussion: Unheard of levels of wank from *Mizukage since his claim that the average Jedi in PT > Nihilus or Malak.* Its so fucking laughable for anyone to make the claim that RoTS time frame Sidious or even Plagueis at his best is > Vitiate.


Let me break this down for you.  Luke is stated to be what Anakin would have been had he not fallen to the Dark Side.  
Anakin is stated to be at full potential twice as powerful as Darth Sidious.  
Now Abeloth is stated to be 20 times more powerful than Luke.  
The moment you claimed Vitiate was on par with Abeloth you lost.  Vitiate's best feat is absorbing a planet with a few weeks threat.
I never stated an Average PT Jedi could defeat Malak or Nihilus, what the fuck are you on about?
Again Vitiate _with prep_ did what it took Darth Nihilus to do with a single word.  
Palpatine's greatest feat is fighting with the Force itself, an entity stated to be the whole damned Galaxy.  
Also keep in mind that Palpatine was _only_ defeated by a combined effort of Luke Leia and _the force itself_

And to back it up we have some quotes.
“Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber,* but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.*”(The New Essential Chronology, page 84 )

The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course [that the Rebel Alliance would be troublesome]; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. Th*e Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.*” (Death Star, page 76)

“Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. *By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.*” (Vader: the Ultimate Guide, page 19)

"Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure"

”Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, t*he greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time.*”-- The Complete Visual Dictionary.

Want more? Because there's more.
Two of those are clearly from before his OT incarnation and blatantly states that Sidious is more powerful than any Sith before him.  And him and Plagueis beating the Force itself in a Force contest through mediation proves this


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## Es (Jun 24, 2012)

> The story we hear is from Nyriss who says specifically that she cannot verify the story. Revan only says that it is confirmed that Vitiate killed his father. Big whoop.


Nothing is really contradicted


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## Lord Stark (Jun 24, 2012)

Es said:


> Nothing is really contradicted



And yet we never get confirmation on what happened on Nathema.  For all we know it could have taken Vitiate months or years to use those Sith Lord's powers to wipe the life from that world.  We simply do not know.  So no that feat cannot be used in the OBD.  What can be used is what we see him doing on screen fight Revan, fight Tol Braga, and fight the Jedi Knight.  And from those fights he showed nothing to put him on par with even the weakest incarnation of Sidious.


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## Fang (Jun 24, 2012)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> The story we hear is from Nyriss who says specifically that she cannot verify the story.  Revan only says that it is confirmed that Vitiate killed his father.  Big whoop.



And Nyriss is wrong on a great many things.

Wrong one count right there.



> Suddenly empty handed the Emperor took a quick step back, his attention had been focused solely on Revan. Meetra’s trick had caught him by surprise. *Scourge realized that if she had aimed at the Emperor instead of the blade she could have ended his life even as he ended Revan’s.*  But her instincts to save her friend overrode her desire to kill her enemy and Scourge could only lament the lost opportunity.



And excellent job at ignoring the fact that Meetra, Revan, and Scourge are completely unaware of Vitiate's immortality and the fact that when he turns Scourge into an immortal and his own personal enforcer, Scourge is dumbfounded he had that power.

So wrong on count two.



> Sorry where exactly does it say the Emperor's victory was assured against Team Revan?



How about we have someone post the whole damn fight in its entirety to show how much your cherry-picking little excerpts. Emperor's non-Force Sensitive Royal Guards were giving Revan and Scourge trouble, gets blashed repeatedly by Force Lightning that makes his attack on Nyriss look like piss in comparison and how at the end even Scourge foresaw the fact Revan and Meetra were never fated to win against him in the first place.




> Let me break this down for you.  Luke is stated to be what Anakin would have been had he not fallen to the Dark Side.



Not relevant. 



> Anakin is stated to be at full potential twice as powerful as Darth Sidious.



Not relevant and wrong as well. Lucas said that Anakin as Vader post-Mustafar was at 50% his full potential, and equal to RoTS Sidious at 80% of his full power. Nothing to do with any of his other incarnations.



> Now Abeloth is stated to be 20 times more powerful than Luke.



Still not relevant and also wrong. Abeloth was stated to amp herself with the Force in her fight with Luke so that her strength, as in her physical strength, was 20 times greater then his own.

Wrong again and possibly purposely misinterpreting the passage of the second fight between Luke and Abeloth from Fate of the Jedi.



> The moment you claimed Vitiate was on par with Abeloth you lost.  Vitiate's best feat is absorbing a planet with a few weeks threat.



Bullshit and lying blatantly now. A much younger Vitiate needed a "few weeks" or months of prep to get those hundreds of Sith Lords to come to his planet after Naga Sadow's defeat. Then the time needed to teach and show those same Sith Lords how to help him perform the Force draining of the same said world and become "immortal".

He needed no prep to mentally overpower and Force-Drain them. And Revan himself fucking confirms that Vitiate doesn't need any external help or rituals or any other external factors to replicate that process.



> I never stated an Average PT Jedi could defeat Malak or Nihilus, what the fuck are you on about?



Its a pretty good summary of your posts on Star Wars pre-2010. 



> Again Vitiate _with prep_ did what it took Darth Nihilus to do with a single word.



And again I have to correct you: Vitiate didn't need prep to mind-control or telepathically dominate those hundred+ something Sith Lords across an entire planet, he only needed them to start up the catalyst of the Force ritual for the Force/dark side energy needed. Revan himself confirms Vitiate doesn't need it by the time of the Cold War 300+ years later.

Not too mention that the only main reason that Nihilus could do it so casually and easily is because Traya confirms that:

1: To use Force Drain you have to be a dark side using Force-User.
2: You have to have a special talent or affinity for that particular ability as the average Force-User can't learn it no matter how powerful they are.
3: He was a Wound in the Force and had years of using that ability so it was essentially the ability using him, not the other way around.
4: Vitiate actually kills the Force and erases it when he uses Force Drain vs Nihilus simply robbing it of its potency. 



> Palpatine's greatest feat is fighting with the Force itself, an entity stated to be the whole damned Galaxy.



Neither Palpatine or Plagueis fought the fucking Force. They shifted its balance artificially toward creating the perfect Force-User and in turn Luceno leaves it ambiguous as to if or if not this involved Anakin's birth and the Skywalker lineage.

Stop harping on it, it could be a metaphor for all we know. The only time the Force or one of its alignments have ever fought was when the dark side itself attacked the Darkstaff. Only fucking confirmed time, the narration in Darth Plagueis doesn't make that distinction or possibility with Plagueis' mido-cholorian manipulation. 



> Also keep in mind that Palpatine was _only_ defeated by a combined effort of Luke Leia and _the force itself_



And Exar Kun required thousands of Jedi, as well as an entire Republic armada to be just physically killed as well as suffer a focused Force Light that burnt an entire world's and killed off its native inhabitants in a psychic holocaust.

And all Luke and Leia did was temporarily cut him off from controlling the Force Storm, not what your lying about with trying to claim they purposely were sealing him off from the Force itself.



> And to back it up we have some quotes.
> “Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber,* but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.*”(The New Essential Chronology, page 84 )



And that's from 2005. When TOR was never in development and disregarding that major fact; Yoda would have no knowledge about Plagueis or Bane or even Vitiate. And I never claimed Sidious at his best < Vitiate, the margin between the two at their best is miniscule but Sidious is slightly better.

You are jumping the gun with the strawman arguments.



> The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course [that the Rebel Alliance would be troublesome]; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. Th*e Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.*” (Death Star, page 76)



Still not relevant. No amount of A > B > C twisting is going to help you save your ass out of this mishap your putting yourself into.



> “Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. *By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.*” (Vader: the Ultimate Guide, page 19)



Pointless and for the uptenth time not relevant. Also by feats: Caedus > Sidious.



> "Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure"



Except Fold-Space, Electric Judgement/Emerald Lightning, Lightning Rod technique, Aing-Ti skills, Fallanasai powers, and so forth like Jacen/Caedus did. Guess what I guess that means Caedus > Sidious again.



> ”Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, t*he greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time.*”-- The Complete Visual Dictionary.



So now more non-relevant red herrings and basing it off of narrative hyperbole? Cool. Still has nothing to do with Vitiate > Revan.



> *blah blah blah*



Yeah this is embarrassing you might want to stop.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Jun 24, 2012)

You can't be serious said:
			
		

> Palpatine's greatest feat is fighting with the Force itself, an entity stated to be the whole damned Galaxy.
> Also keep in mind that Palpatine was only defeated by a combined effort of Luke Leia and the force itself





			
				I'm laughing so hard at this said:
			
		

> Two of those are clearly from before his OT incarnation and blatantly states that Sidious is more powerful than any Sith before him. And him and Plagueis beating the Force itself in a Force contest through mediation proves this




What in the hell are you smoking?



			
				Qu Rahn said:
			
		

> Jerec, the man who murdered your father, is a great evil. He searches for the location of a sacred place, the Valley of the Jedi. The Force of thousands of Jedi is trapped here. If Jerec captures this power, he will be a creature such as the universe has never seen. A supernova of stars in a fleeting thought—the eradication of life from a star system in a whisper—will be within his power.



Wow. That's pretty damn impressive. I didn't know that the Valley of the Jedi gave you that kind of power.

Still, it's a one time only powerup, so I don't think it should really be included.


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## Nihilistic (Jun 24, 2012)

I see a lot of tiers being thrown around. So to the resident SW experts, has the Sith tier list changed? Who are the top 5 Sith in history?


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## Darth Nihilus (Jun 24, 2012)

Ignoring the fact that Nyriss's statement was debunked when Surik and T3-M4 went to Nathema

Ignoring the fact that Vitiate was dominating Revan to the point where his own droid and the Exile had to jump in to save him

Ignoring the fact that Scourge had forseen that the Jedi Knight was to be the one to defeat the Emperor

Ignoring the fact that Vitiate can switch bodies as he pleases, aside from obliterating the entire Dark Council and evidence in the novel stating how he rid the entire planet of Nathema of life and the Force itself 

Either you're arguing for the sake of arguing, haven't read the book in its entirety or only cherry picking your favorite parts, going from the SW wiki page, or you're sickle minded 

allmychips.gif


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## Lord Stark (Jun 24, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> What in the hell are you smoking?
> .



Direct quote from Plagueis 
"The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged ethnic war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force?s proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood and stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from his throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended."



Darth Nihilus said:


> Ignoring the fact that Nyriss's statement was debunked when Surik and T3-M4 went to Nathema



Surik and T3 going to a planet devastated by the Dark Side, does not prove that Vitiate subverted the will of a hundred Sith Lords instantly.  



> Ignoring the fact that Vitiate was dominating Revan to the point where his own droid and the Exile had to jump in to save him


After Revan arrogantly tried to block the attack with his hands.  



> Ignoring the fact that Scourge had forseen that the Jedi Knight was to be the one to defeat the Emperor


He foresaw that as the most likely outcome out of all that he saw.  The future is always in motion however, and one of those outcomes was Revan dieing, the other was his triumph, each were equally likely according to the man who had the vision itself.



> Ignoring the fact that Vitiate can switch bodies as he pleases, aside from obliterating the entire Dark Council and evidence in the novel stating how he rid the entire planet of Nathema of life and the Force itself


Prove that Vitiate can switch bodies as of SWTOR: Revan.  There are 300 years in between SWTOR: Revan and TOR, so he could have learned the technique then.  
And the entire Dark Council thing was off screen.  And did you miss the part that they were invited to his palace, you know the place where there are likely dozens of Royal Guards.  He also had the jump on them, and we literally have no idea how that confrontation went down.  

So let me get this straight.  If there was a legend that I had destroyed all life in Hiroshima, and then you go to Hiroshima to verify it, that automatically means that I have the power to lay waste to entire cities?




> Either you're arguing for the sake of arguing, haven't read the book in its entirety or only cherry picking your favorite parts, going from the SW wiki page, or you're sickle minded
> 
> allmychips.gif


You are the one cherry picking.  Ignoring the parts where Revan pushes back the Emperor, ignoring the part where the Exile could have killed the Emperor, ignoring the hesitation in the Emperor, and ignoring that Scourge killing Meetra provided the Emperor with the opening _he needed_.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 24, 2012)

I'm getting a headache reading this thread and while I should leave it alone



> "Revan’s command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met"



Command of the force could also mean force mastery which is correct. Nihilus however has planetary force drain+force severe with mere whispers and his TK feat I recall was calc'd(not on this forum) as being pretty ridiculous, I'll find it if I can would like to see what people here think. That was one of the best TK feats in the mythos.

Are you claiming Katarn beat a god mode Jerec?While Jerec and Katarn got more powerful due to absorbing some of the Valley's power upon entering(Jerec disintigrating the ramp with his blast if I recall), Jerec's attempt to get more power is halted when Katarn separates him from the dark side Nexus using a light side power before killing him, have you read the novel?

You mention Vitiate's feat as not valid then mention Palpy/Plagueis's feat which also involved months of pulling the force to the dark side and was'nt solely a feat of Palpatine?Vitiate mentally enslaved a 100 Sith, the power syphoning was part of the ritual but the telepathy was his own. 

Why are you bringing Luke, Anakin and others into this debate?I thought this was about Vitiate and Revan.


----------



## Lord Stark (Jun 24, 2012)

Fang said:


> And Nyriss is wrong on a great many things.
> 
> Wrong one count right there.


Because you say so amirite?




> And excellent job at ignoring the fact that Meetra, Revan, and Scourge are completely unaware of Vitiate's immortality and the fact that when he turns Scourge into an immortal and his own personal enforcer, Scourge is dumbfounded he had that power.


They know that he's the same Emperor that's been on the throne for hundreds of years, and they know he got that power from Nathema.  Prove that Vitiate could body hop 300 years prior to the current story.






> How about we have someone post the whole damn fight in its entirety to show how much your cherry-picking little excerpts. Emperor's non-Force Sensitive Royal Guards were giving Revan and Scourge trouble, gets blashed repeatedly by Force Lightning that makes his attack on Nyriss look like piss in comparison and how at the end even Scourge foresaw the fact Revan and Meetra were never fated to win against him in the first place.


Why don't you since you have the book right?  Revan owned a Dark Council Member with minimal effort.  The Royal Guards are capable of giving Dark Council-level Force senistives trouble that does not prove Revan to be weak, on the contrary it proves the guards to be strong.  I am not cherry picking.  Scourge saw multiple outcomes of the battle, each equally likely, and then he saw one that was more likely than the rest.  




> Not relevant.


It surely is co





> Still not relevant and also wrong. Abeloth was stated to amp herself with the Force in her fight with Luke so that her strength, as in her physical strength, was 20 times greater then his own.


Prove that the novel was only referencing physical strength.  



> Wrong again and possibly purposely misinterpreting the passage of the second fight between Luke and Abeloth from Fate of the Jedi.



Or maybe you just can't admit you are wrong.  Twenty times or not, Abeloth is more powerful than even Zonekin, who is capable of subduing even the Mortis twins in TCW.


> Bullshit and lying blatantly now. A much younger Vitiate needed a "few weeks" or months of prep to get those hundreds of Sith Lords to come to his planet after Naga Sadow's defeat. Then the time needed to teach and show those same Sith Lords how to help him perform the Force draining of the same said world and become "immortal".



Prove this without referencing the Nyriss quote which she herself says she cannot confirm.  



> He needed no prep to mentally overpower and Force-Drain them. And Revan himself fucking confirms that Vitiate doesn't need any external help or rituals or any other external factors to replicate that process.



And we take character statements as absolute in the OBD now? Since when?  If Vitiate could do it like Nihilus, Revan and company would approach, Vitiate would speak a word like Nihilus did, and they would all die sans the Exile.  




> Its a pretty good summary of your posts on Star Wars *pre-2010. *



Exactly my point.  
1.  I was younger then
2.  My knowledge of Star Wars lore was much less than it is now.  
3.  Previous debates are entirely irrelevant in a current one.  



> And again I have to correct you: Vitiate didn't need prep to mind-control or telepathically dominate those hundred+ something Sith Lords across an entire planet, he only needed them to start up the catalyst of the Force ritual for the Force/dark side energy needed. Revan himself confirms Vitiate doesn't need it by the time of the Cold War 300+ years later.


If that were true than the Galaxy would have been killed.  Vitiate needed to a catalyst to his galactic ritual.  If he were capable of doing it he would have.  Against Revan, and in order to initiate his ritual.  



> Not too mention that the only main reason that Nihilus could do it so casually and easily is because Traya confirms that:
> 
> 1: To use Force Drain you have to be a dark side using Force-User.
> 2: You have to have a special talent or affinity for that particular ability as the average Force-User can't learn it no matter how powerful they are.
> ...



This simply shows Drew as being a hack writer because that's exactly what Nihilus and Traya do.




> Neither Palpatine or Plagueis fought the fucking Force. They shifted its balance artificially toward creating the perfect Force-User and in turn Luceno leaves it ambiguous as to if or if not this involved Anakin's birth and the Skywalker lineage.


Wrong again they did fight the force.
"The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had *sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty *and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. *Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged ethnic war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Forces proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood and stop the beating of their hearts.* Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, *they had brought their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force.* No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture *they knew the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from his throne.* On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended."



> Stop harping on it, it could be a metaphor for all we know. The only time the Force or one of its alignments have ever fought was when the dark side itself attacked the Darkstaff. Only fucking confirmed time, the narration in Darth Plagueis doesn't make that distinction or possibility with Plagueis' mido-cholorian manipulation.


It is nor a metaphor bro.  It blatantly says they risked getting destroyed by the Force.



> And Exar Kun required thousands of Jedi, as well as an entire Republic armada to be just physically killed as well as suffer a focused Force Light that burnt an entire world's and killed off its native inhabitants in a psychic holocaust.


That just proves Exar Kun is extremely powerful.  Especially considering it was stated in KOTOR that Kun made Revan and Malak look like little girls.



> And all Luke and Leia did was temporarily cut him off from controlling the Force Storm, not what your lying about with trying to claim they purposely were sealing him off from the Force itself.



It is stated in a sourcebook that it took Luke Leia and the entire force to defeat him.




> And that's from 2005. When TOR was never in development and disregarding that major fact; Yoda would have no knowledge about Plagueis or Bane or even Vitiate. And I never claimed Sidious at his best < Vitiate, the margin between the two at their best is miniscule but Sidious is slightly better.



One of Palpatine's journals reference him studying both Malgus and Vitiate.  
The sourcebook's date doesn't matter it is canon.  So until another one is released saying Vitiate was more powerful than Palpatine that is the official stance. 




> Still not relevant. No amount of A > B > C twisting is going to help you save your ass out of this mishap your putting yourself into.


No u.



> Pointless and for the uptenth time not relevant. Also by feats: Caedus > Sidious.


 Except for it being stated multiple times in the mythos that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord to ever exist.  




> Except Fold-Space, Electric Judgement/Emerald Lightning, Lightning Rod technique, Aing-Ti skills, Fallanasai powers, and so forth like Jacen/Caedus did. Guess what I guess that means Caedus > Sidious again.


When has Caedus mind wiped millions of Coruscanti? Subverted the mind of billions into his slaves, or destroyed hundreds of Capital-class ships with a wormhole?




> So now more non-relevant red herrings and basing it off of narrative hyperbole? Cool. Still has nothing to do with Vitiate > Revan.


Vitiate is >Revan
That was never a dispute.  The dispute was by how much.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Jun 24, 2012)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Surik and T3 going to a planet devastated by the Dark Side, does not prove that Vitiate subverted the will of a hundred Sith Lords instantly.



>Constantly bringing up the Nyriss quote as if it means something
>Surik and T3 confirming what happened on Nathema via recording
>Scourge stating what happened on Nathema years later to the Jedi Knight



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> After Revan arrogantly tried to block the attack with his hands.



Your point



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> He foresaw that as the most likely outcome out of all that he saw.  The future is always in motion however, and one of those outcomes was Revan dieing, the other was his triumph, each were equally likely according to the man who had the vision itself.



blub blub blub



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Prove that Vitiate can switch bodies as of SWTOR: Revan.  There are 300 years in between SWTOR: Revan and TOR, so he could have learned the technique then.



>Asking for proof that Vitiate can switch bodies 300 years prior to TOR
>Claiming that he could have learned the technique years later
>Royal Guards

gamelwithchips.gif



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> And the entire Dark Council thing was off screen.  And did you miss the part that they were invited to his palace, you know the place where there are likely dozens of Royal Guards.  He also had the jump on them, and we literally have no idea how that confrontation went down.



Grasping at straws again

So much ad nauseum



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> So let me get this straight.  If there was a legend that I had destroyed all life in Hiroshima, and then you go to Hiroshima to verify it, that automatically means that I have the power to lay waste to entire cities?



blub blub blub



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Ignoring the parts where Revan pushes back the Emperor



Which did nothing noteworthy



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> ignoring the part where the Exile could have killed the Emperor, ignoring the hesitation in the Emperor, and ignoring that Scourge killing Meetra provided the Emperor with the opening _he needed_.



>Ritual of essence transfer
>Scourge having visions of who will defeat Vitiate
>More ad nauseum

gamelwithchips.gif


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jun 24, 2012)

> Or maybe you just can't admit you are wrong. Twenty times or not, Abeloth is more powerful than even Zonekin, who is capable of subduing even the Mortis twins in TCW



*Anakin used Mortiss, the whole planet was the force* did you actually watch that episode?his voice even changes. The Anakin that fought Dooku can't do that nor did he reach his full potential in the fight, *Lucas confirms that Anakin never reached his full potential and Lucas has made it clear that only Yoda and Mace could match Palpy in the movie timeline*(Starkiller was lucky Palpy was toying around and trying to convert him as the novel and Starkiller's "it's a trick he's stronger than this" make it clear). *Palpatine makes it clear Anakin has yet to surpass him*. And seeing as how Luke can fight Abeloth, your 20x argument is invalid * by a feat contradicting that*.

Seriously stop bringing up other characters and making this go off topic.



> Except for it being stated multiple times in the mythos that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord to ever exist



Some of those are in universe sources plus that applies only till Palpatine's era, anyone after that is free game to be more powerful. Plus certain sources call Palpatine the most powerful Sith in 1,000 yrs not ever. Why are you bringing Palpatine into this? We can discuss his feats another time* but this won't change that Mace would lose to Vitiate*. Mace needed Vaapad plus shatterpoints plus Palpy's rust plus losing 3 elite council members and terrain to win, fair win and he could beat most dark siders with his anti-dark side H4X but he can't counter all powers, Vitiate has many powers like Palpy and he won't hesitate to use them unlike Palpy.



> One of Palpatine's journals reference him studying both Malgus and Vitiate. The sourcebook's date doesn't matter it is canon. So until another one is released saying Vitiate was more powerful than Palpatine that is the official stance



Studying does not make someone more powerful. The sourcebook is semi canon if you're refering to DE because Palpatine does not know every single power due to how old that is, he knows a ridiculous amount but not all. If Palpy knew all powers he'd have displayed some of those when the situation called for, that's primary canon. You can use the "tamed the dark side" part but not him knowing all powers. The writers invented various non Jedi/Sith powers later on which Palpy has no way of knowing. No one can know every single force power.

Why is this turning into Vitiate vs Palpatine *when Mace was nowhere near Palpatine either* outside Vaapad to stalemate via loop and shatterpoints requiring terrain advantage FTW. Vitiate can switch bodies or make illusions or syphon his life or others things Vaapad has'nt shown to counter. Palpy may have held back on other powers but Vitiate will not. *Many of those feats you mention happen post ROTS, fairly certain ROTS Palpy did not know wormholes to destroy fleets*.

I personally believe Palpatine was the most powerful upto his death but he certainly would not be so much above the rest plus that is a different issue and not for this thread.


----------



## Fang (Jun 24, 2012)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Because you say so amirite?



Because its been confirmed, actually.



> They know that he's the same Emperor that's been on the throne for hundreds of years, and they know he got that power from Nathema.  Prove that Vitiate could body hop 300 years prior to the current story.



Red herring.



> Why don't you since you have the book right?  Revan owned a Dark Council Member with minimal effort.  The Royal Guards are capable of giving Dark Council-level Force senistives trouble that does not prove Revan to be weak, on the contrary it proves the guards to be strong.  I am not cherry picking.  Scourge saw multiple outcomes of the battle, each equally likely, and then he saw one that was more likely than the rest.



Thanks for sniping your own argument. Because in the end the most likely he foresaw was Vitiate winning, and guess who lost? Revan.



> It surely is co



Nice rebuttal.



> Prove that the novel was only referencing physical strength.



Not relevant and besides that the burden of proof is on you since your making that claim.



> Or maybe you just can't admit you are wrong.  Twenty times or not, Abeloth is more powerful than even Zonekin, who is capable of subduing even the Mortis twins in TCW.



And the Father has beaten Abeloth, and stated Anakin had the power to suppress and keep the Son and Daughter in check, and still not fucking relevant.



> Prove this without referencing the Nyriss quote which she herself says she cannot confirm.



Nice double-standards. You bring up a character-fallible statement like its absolute truth; when Scourge and Nyriss actually go to Nathema and confirm what he did, you ignore it. Yet when Scourge sees that Revan and Meetra never stood a chance putting down the Emperor, you cherry-pick.

What a hypocrite you are.  



> And we take character statements as absolute in the OBD now? Since when?  If Vitiate could do it like Nihilus, Revan and company would approach, Vitiate would speak a word like Nihilus did, and they would all die sans the Exile.



Translation: Nyriss statement is okay because you say so when she doubts Vitiate's power but when Revan himself confirms what the Emperor can do post-Nathema with more then 1500 years more skilled and powerful after seeing what happened to his home world, his statement is suddenly questionable?

Again: hypocrisy. 



> Exactly my point.
> 1.  I was younger then
> 2.  My knowledge of Star Wars lore was much less than it is now.
> 3.  Previous debates are entirely irrelevant in a current one.



Blah blah blah, your still doing the same shit now.



> If that were true than the Galaxy would have been killed.  Vitiate needed to a catalyst to his galactic ritual.  If he were capable of doing it he would have.  Against Revan, and in order to initiate his ritual.



Vitiate's galaxy draining ritual has nothing to fucking do with the current discussion. Do you not know how to debate properly at all? Enough with the strawman and non-sequiter arguments.



> This simply shows Drew as being a hack writer because that's exactly what Nihilus and Traya do.



Wrong again. Nihilus was wounding the Force, Vitiate was erasing it when he drained it.



> Wrong again they did fight the force.
> "The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had *sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty *and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. *Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged ethnic war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force’s proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood and stop the beating of their hearts.* Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, *they had brought their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force.* No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture *they knew the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from his throne.* On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended."



An entire passage aligned with metaphorical analogies about the balance of the Force. Cool story bro.



> It is nor a metaphor bro.  It blatantly says they risked getting destroyed by the Force.



No, but this is amusing as your claim of Nihilus < the average high tier PT Jedi Master.



> That just proves Exar Kun is extremely powerful.  Especially considering it was stated in KOTOR that Kun made Revan and Malak look like little girls.



Wrong again. Your knowledge of SW lore is terrible. Only thing ever referenced to the ancient Sith from the "modern" ones at that time was from KoTOR II and Traya saying they were like children compared to them.



> It is stated in a sourcebook that it took Luke Leia and the entire force to defeat him.



No, it's not. Luke, Leia, and the unborn Anakin Solo channeled the light side to temporarily cut off Palpatine/Sidious from controlling the Force Storm. Or at least in Dark Empire 1 itself which is > the source book.

Wrong again.



> One of Palpatine's journals reference him studying both Malgus and Vitiate.  The sourcebook's date doesn't matter it is canon.  So until another one is released saying Vitiate was more powerful than Palpatine that is the official stance.



There is no canon that states that. The nearest canon background information involving Sidious and Vitiate is from Darth Plagueis with Plagueis referencing how long Vitiate reign at the height of the revived Sith Empire's power.

Try the fuck again.



> No u.



Concession accepted.



> Except for it being stated multiple times in the mythos that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord to ever exist.



Except that Caedus matched current Luke. So, nope.  



> *snip for more non-sequiter arguments*



Concession accepted.



> Vitiate is >Revan
> That was never a dispute.  The dispute was by how much.



Pretty sure the dispute is how little you actually know about Star Wars and EU since your bsing on quite a bit of stuff.


----------



## Fang (Jun 24, 2012)

Nihilistic said:


> I see a lot of tiers being thrown around. So to the resident SW experts, has the Sith tier list changed? Who are the top 5 Sith in history?



Caedus, Vitiate, Sidious, Plagueis, Exar Kun or Naga Sadow. Bane is up there too.


----------



## Lord Stark (Jun 25, 2012)

Darth Nihilus said:


> >Constantly bringing up the Nyriss quote as if it means something


It does.


> >Surik and T3 confirming what happened on Nathema via recording
> >Scourge stating what happened on Nathema years later to the Jedi Knight


No Surik and T3 confirmed Sith Lords arrived and did not leave.  Scourge got his information from Nyriss and Surik.  




> Your point


CIS, why would Revan use his hands to block the Emperor's lightning when he could have.
A.  Thrown his saber to stop him from charging his lightning.
B.  Blocked the bolts with his saber.




> blub blub blub


Canon states Revan, Scourge, and Meetra vs. Vitiate could have gone either way.



> >Asking for proof that Vitiate can switch bodies 300 years prior to TOR
> >Claiming that he could have learned the technique years later
> >Royal Guards


It's stupid to assume that someone can use an advanced force technique 300 years prior to him first being shown to use it.


> Grasping at straws again
> 
> So much ad nauseum



You have yet to prove anything.  I have the entire audio book.  The Dark Council was slaughtered in the Emperor's Citadel.  The HQ of his Royal Guard.
Nyriss makes it clear that 'The Imperial Guard will ensure I never leave this place alive'
So yes
Imperial Guardsman>Nyriss.
And even Revan who is stated to have "easily bested Darth Nyriss" had trouble with these guards.  In other words the Emperor and a detachment of his guardsmen would be more than a match for the 9 Dark Council Members assembled.  You misread the novel.  It didn't once say,  "The Emperor single handedly killed all 9 members of the Dark Council."


> blub blub blub


Concession accepted.

Which did nothing noteworthy




> >Ritual of essence transfer
> >Scourge having visions of who will defeat Vitiate
> >More ad nauseum



He also had a vision of Revan defeating Vitiate, your point?  The Ritual at the end of the novel proves nothing.  Scourge himself had no idea that the Emperor could body hop, which tells me that he's been using the same body for well over 300 years.  He embodies himself in his true voice however.



Tranquil Fury said:


> *Anakin used Mortiss, the whole planet was the force* did you actually watch that episode?his voice even changes. The Anakin that fought Dooku can't do that nor did he reach his full potential in the fight, *Lucas confirms that Anakin never reached his full potential and Lucas has made it clear that only Yoda and Mace could match Palpy in the movie timeline*(Starkiller was lucky Palpy was toying around and trying to convert him as the novel and Starkiller's "it's a trick he's stronger than this" make it clear). *Palpatine makes it clear Anakin has yet to surpass him*. And seeing as how Luke can fight Abeloth, your 20x argument is invalid * by a feat contradicting that*.



It's been awhile since I've watched them honestly.  
The Databank made it clear that Starkiller was 'no match for Palpatine.'  Don't need to tell me twice.



> Seriously stop bringing up other characters and making this go off topic.


This thread was made to bait me into a discussion of other characters.  Revan would get nailed to the wall by Abeloth it isn't even a competition.  




> Some of those are in universe sources plus that applies only till Palpatine's era, anyone after that is free game to be more powerful. Plus certain sources call Palpatine the most powerful Sith in 1,000 yrs not ever. Why are you bringing Palpatine into this? We can discuss his feats another time* but this won't change that Mace would lose to Vitiate*. Mace needed Vaapad plus shatterpoints plus Palpy's rust plus losing 3 elite council members and terrain to win, fair win and he could beat most dark siders with his anti-dark side H4X but he can't counter all powers, Vitiate has many powers like Palpy and he won't hesitate to use them unlike Palpy.


Most sources maintain that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord ever.  I have never seen one that says in a thousand years.  If you have a source please share it.  And is there a source on Palpatine being 'rusty', or weaker than his TPM form?
Mace can win against Vitiate if he can close the distance in time.  Especially with Anakin's back up.  Don't forget that Windu was able to deflect Palpatine's lightning, which is some of the deadliest in the mythos.  If he can put Vitiate in a similar position to Palpatine in his office, Anakin can move in to kill Vitiate before Windu eats his own lightsaber.  
Vitiate's saber skills are abyssal, being disarmed by a saber throw from the Exile.  





> Studying does not make someone more powerful. The sourcebook is semi canon if you're refering to DE because Palpatine does not know every single power due to how old that is, he knows a ridiculous amount but not all. If Palpy knew all powers he'd have displayed some of those when the situation called for, that's primary canon. You can use the "tamed the dark side" part but not him knowing all powers. The writers invented various non Jedi/Sith powers later on which Palpy has no way of knowing. No one can know every single force power.


I agree with this.  But Palpatine's knowledge of the Dark Side is pretty damned near unrivaled.  



> Why is this turning into Vitiate vs Palpatine *when Mace was nowhere near Palpatine either* outside Vaapad to stalemate via loop and shatterpoints requiring terrain advantage FTW. Vitiate can switch bodies or make illusions or syphon his life or others things Vaapad has'nt shown to counter. Palpy may have held back on other powers but Vitiate will not. *Many of those feats you mention happen post ROTS, fairly certain ROTS Palpy did not know wormholes to destroy fleets*.


Because Fang created this thread as an extension of Mace and Anakin vs. Vitiate.  Vitiate hasn't been shown to syphon life mid-fight, and his mind domination can be interrupted by a well placed force push.  And considering Tol Braga overcame his mental domination, I don't see why Mace Windu would not.  


> I personally believe Palpatine was the most powerful upto his death but he certainly would not be so much above the rest plus that is a different issue and not for this thread.


It is possible Cadeus surpassed him.  



Fang said:


> Because its been confirmed, actually.


Show me the quote




> Red herring.



No not at all.  



> Thanks for sniping your own argument. Because in the end the most likely he foresaw was Vitiate winning, and guess who lost? Revan.


He foresaw it being 50/50 that Revan would win.
But he saw a 100/0 that the JK would win.  Why would he take that risk.  And wut? Revan lost because Scourge betrayed them.



> Nice rebuttal.


Sorry I was in a rush.  It is relevant. 



> Not relevant and besides that the burden of proof is on you since your making that claim.


You are the one saying that it is referencing physical strength.  Novel never specifically says physical strength.



> And the Father has beaten Abeloth, and stated Anakin had the power to suppress and keep the Son and Daughter in check, and still not fucking relevant.


----------



## Lord Stark (Jun 25, 2012)

> Nice double-standards. You bring up a character-fallible statement like its absolute truth; when Scourge and Nyriss actually go to Nathema and confirm what he did, you ignore it. Yet when Scourge sees that Revan and Meetra never stood a chance putting down the Emperor, you cherry-pick.


The narration states that Scourge couldn't see the best possible outcome.  Not Scourge himself.  


> What a hypocrite you are.


Yeah right, post one character statement that I have posted.  All of my quotes come from the narration.  



> Translation: Nyriss statement is okay because you say so when she doubts Vitiate's power but when Revan himself confirms what the Emperor can do post-Nathema with more then 1500 years more skilled and powerful after seeing what happened to his home world, his statement is suddenly questionable?


And Revan is an expert on the Emperor's power how?  Character statements are fine if they are backed up by facts.  They are not here.



> Again: hypocrisy.


So even if I did post things from outside the narration, you are calling me out on using them.  That would make you yourself a hypocrite 



> Blah blah blah, your still doing the same shit now.


*you're
And reported for flame bait.  


> Vitiate's galaxy draining ritual has nothing to fucking do with the current discussion. Do you not know how to debate properly at all? Enough with the strawman and non-sequiter arguments.


Actually it does.  Not once has Vitiate displayed the ability to instantly destroy a planet.  He needed a genocide on Belsaviss and Corellia, why would he go through all of the trouble he did, if he could simply step onto the world and drain it.  



> Wrong again. Nihilus was wounding the Force, Vitiate was erasing it when he drained it.


It's the same thing.  Kreia planned to use Nihilus to wound the force to the point of it being destroyed.  Also an 'absence in the force' means the force was erased.  
Absence-the fact of being without something; lack




> An entire passage aligned with metaphorical analogies about the balance of the Force. Cool story bro.


Nice cop out.  I'm not your bro, friend. 



> No, but this is amusing as your claim of Nihilus < the average high tier PT Jedi Master.


Then you are lost.



> Wrong again. Your knowledge of SW lore is terrible. Only thing ever referenced to the ancient Sith from the "modern" ones at that time was from KoTOR II and Traya saying they were like children compared to them.


No, there was that Rodian who witnessed the battle of Yavin.  
But in all seriousness, the ancient Sith Lords never embraced Revan as their true successor as they did Exar Kun.  



> No, it's not. Luke, Leia, and the unborn Anakin Solo channeled the light side to temporarily cut off Palpatine/Sidious from controlling the Force Storm. Or at least in Dark Empire 1 itself which is > the source book.



Uh no it isn't they are both C-canon.  



> Wrong again.






> There is no canon that states that. The nearest canon background information involving Sidious and Vitiate is from Darth Plagueis with Plagueis referencing how long Vitiate reign at the height of the revived Sith Empire's power.


Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side references both him and Malgus actually.  




> Except that Caedus matched current Luke. So, nope.


Cadeus may well be more powerful that Palpatine.  But you still fail to see that most source material...no scratch that pretty much every source material to date includes Palpatine being the most powerful Sith Lord in history.



> Pretty sure the dispute is how little you actually know about Star Wars and EU since your bsing on quite a bit of stuff.



Awww mad because you can't back up your claims?  Or is it because every single source material to date says Palpatine is the strongest Sith Lord in history.


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## Es (Jun 25, 2012)

The one from the essential chronology is from an in universe perspective so statements from that are fallable anyways


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## Lord Stark (Jun 25, 2012)

Es said:


> The one from the essential chronology is from an in universe perspective so statements from that are fallable anyways



Even discarding that, there is still Death Star, Darth Vader: The Ultimate Guide, 
The Dark Side Sourcebook, and The Complete Visual Guide.  Oh and Leeland Chee himself.
"Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chambers, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two entered into a spectacular duel --* a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. *The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Though Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end, the Sith bested him. He realized that directly confronting the Sith would be doomed to failure. Defeated, Yoda slinked away into the shadows of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa."


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## Fang (Jun 25, 2012)

> A red herring is a clue which is intended to be misleading, or distracting from the actual issue.



You keep doing this, might want to stop it.

Actually fuck it on ignore you go. Since you won't concede on constantly purposely lying, misinterpreting facts (including the one involving Abeloth in the Luke respect thread and not knowing how to debate properly like how standards for providing proof with your claims and the constant strawmen arguments) and general other crap, yeah, ignore list with you.

Also never flame-baited, your just reinforcing the fact your knowledge of "EU" is turning you into a pariah. Good luck with that.


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## Lord Stark (Jun 25, 2012)

Fang said:


> You keep doing this, might want to stop it.
> 
> Actually fuck it on ignore you go. Since you won't concede on constantly purposely lying, misinterpreting facts (including the one involving Abeloth in the Luke respect thread and not knowing how to debate properly like how standards for providing proof with your claims and the constant strawmen arguments) and general other crap, yeah, ignore list with you.
> 
> Also never flame-baited, your just reinforcing the fact your knowledge of "EU" is turning you into a pariah. Good luck with that.



Oh you hurt me so.  Ignoring me only means that I won't have to deal with your awful rebuttals anymore. Concession accepted, pal.


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## Es (Jun 25, 2012)

I've done far worse then hurt you. I've neged you and I wish to go on negging you


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## Lord Stark (Jun 25, 2012)

Es said:


> I've done far worse then hurt you. I've neged you and I wish to continue negging you



 
*negged


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## Fang (Jun 25, 2012)

>My "awful" rebuttals


>Constant red herrings and strawman arguments, doesn't know jackshit about TOR or Fate of the Jedi; lies constantly when involving narrative passages or character statements; this includes making a claim from my own respect thread for Luke with a claim that Abeloth is "20x" Luke's power, never concedes.

>Complains when called out constantly and claims "flame-baiting" despite evidence that you keep posting of never knowing what the fuck your talking about.

Lukewithchip.gif

>Further evidence: Claims the source book of Dark Empire which contradicts slightly with the actual comic itself is just as valid for the bullshit about requiring the entire light side of the Force to seal Palpatine, which is never stated in the audio book or graphic novels.

>Also claims the Force was fought by Sidious and Plagueis even though nothing in that fucking passages makes it apparent that happen; same Plagueis also dismisses the claims of the Celestials and the Ones existing above the Sith and Jedi despite the fact we know its true, thinks a universal psychic energy can be beaten by two Sith Lords. Nothing in that fucking passage is anything other then metaphorical allusions to the Force being bent or altered to Plagueis and Sidious manipulating life to create Anakin.

>Keep going with the you don't know what the fuck festival your talking about all you want, Revan is Vitiate's bitch, and your knowledge is so fucking flawed; we're all laughing here. Kind of funnier in relation to the fact that TOR dev team confirmed that the Jedi Knight only fought a proxy clone of the Emperor and is still fine and dandy.

God this is hilarious.


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## Judas (Jun 25, 2012)

More hilarious than someone stating that taking away someone's free will is better than planetary reality warping?


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## Fang (Jun 25, 2012)

Probably as hilarious since he's claiming Plagueis/Sidious > the Force itself, not conceding that Caedus is just as good if not better then him since he can match current Luke, bullshits constantly about Vitiate's power, wanks Revan, claims Drew K is a hax because Revan didn't get uber bullshit mode treatment from his own creator despite the guy writing both characters.


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## Lord Stark (Jun 25, 2012)

Fang said:


> >My "awful" rebuttals
> 
> 
> >Constant red herrings and strawman arguments, doesn't know jackshit about TOR or Fate of the Jedi; lies constantly when involving narrative passages or character statements; this includes making a claim from my own respect thread for Luke with a claim that Abeloth is "20x" Luke's power, never concedes.
> ...



>Claims my debating skills are sub par while posting no quotes or evidence to back up inflated claims
>Puts me on ignore list and still responds to my posts
>Can't hold a debate without throwing a tantrum and flaming.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jun 25, 2012)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> It does.



Since it was debunked more than once later on in the novel

No, it doesn't



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> blub blub blub



>Ignoring evidence 
>Constantly cherry picking 

gamelwithchips.gif




Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> CIS, why would Revan use his hands to block the Emperor's lightning when he could have.



Why are you grasping at straws



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> It's stupid to assume that someone can use an advanced force technique 300 years prior to him first being shown to use it.



Just like assuming that someone needs Royal Guards to do his own dirty work when he's strongest Force user on the planet to take out Non-Force sensitive guards

Check 



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> You have yet to prove anything.  I have the entire audio book.  The Dark Council was slaughtered in the Emperor's Citadel.  The HQ of his Royal Guard.



Grasping at straws again 



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Nyriss makes it clear that 'The Imperial Guard will ensure I never leave this place alive'
> So yes
> Imperial Guardsman>Nyriss.



Irrelevant



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> And even Revan who is stated to have "easily bested Darth Nyriss" had trouble with these guards.  In other words the Emperor and a detachment of his guardsmen would be more than a match for the 9 Dark Council Members assembled.  You misread the novel.  It didn't once say,  "The Emperor single handedly killed all 9 members of the Dark Council."



And the Emperor is leagues above both of them

Check



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> He also had a vision of Revan defeating Vitiate, your point?



Just like he had a vision of the Emperor being defeated by a Jedi Knight other than Revan, Surik and himself

Check



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Scourge himself had no idea that the Emperor could body hop, which tells me that he's been using the same body for well over 300 years.  He embodies himself in his true voice however.





			
				Revan Chapter 23 said:
			
		

> The throne sat on an elevated circular pedestal,  several meters in diameter. As Scourge walked forward, he noticed that  the throne was facing away from him, its high back effectively blocking  any view of its occupant.
> After a few more steps, the pedestal swiveled  around, turning the throne so that it faced him. *And for the first time  in his life, Scourge set eyes upon the Emperor.*


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## Lord Stark (Jun 25, 2012)

Darth Nihilus said:


> Since it was debunked more than once later on in the novel


Post it here.  There is no proof Vitiate instantaneously dominated the minds of the 100 Sith Lords.   




> >Ignoring evidence
> >Constantly cherry picking
> gamelwithchips.gif



You shouldn't speak of yourself like that.






> Why are you grasping at straws


I am not.  In TOR, the JK easily intercepts the Emperor's lightning with his saber, in SWOTOR: Revan, Revan does the same exact thing.  He stupidly tried to block it with his hands.  It's as big a bonehead move as the Emperor trying to finish Revan with his saber when he could just incinerate him with lightning.  



> Just like assuming that someone needs Royal Guards to do his own dirty work when he's strongest Force user on the planet to take out Non-Force sensitive guards



This sentence is a grammatical mess.  Please re-write it.  And if you are trying to say that the Emperor single-handedly massacred the Dark Council, it is never stated that that happened.  And even if he did single handedly kill the Dark Council, it was off panel and cannot be used.  

Also Royal Guard's are able to take out high tier Sith Lords.




> Grasping at straws again


You are the one grasping at straws.
"The other nine were called together in the hours before the attack to meet the Emperor at his Citadel.  None of them left alive."

To deduce from that, that the Emperor personally executed the Dark Council is supposition.  In fact all of your arguments for Vitiate are based on supposition and nothing concrete.  




> And the Emperor is leagues above both of them
> 
> Check



The Emperor is more powerful than both of them yes.  





> Just like he had a vision of the Emperor being defeated by a Jedi Knight other than Revan, Surik and himself



Right, what's your point?


Reading comprehension ftw!
I was obviously referring to in SWTOR, where Scourge does not know that the Emperor is still alive, or that it is even a possibility that he body hopped.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jun 25, 2012)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> blub blub blub



gamelwithchips.gif



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> You shouldn't speak of yourself like that.



blub blub blub




Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> I am not.



Yes, you are



Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> If you are trying to say that the Emperor single-handedly massacred the Dark Council, it is never stated that that happened.  And even if he did single handedly kill the Dark Council, it was off panel and cannot be used.





			
				Revan Chapter 25 said:
			
		

> When Revan didn’t answer, it was clear he had no  intention of discussing his personal life with a Sith. They might be  allies, Scourge realized, but they were far from friends. Which was as  it should be—for a Sith Lord, friends were a liability. *“What did you find out?” Meetra asked as Revan extended a hand to help her up.*
> *“It wasn’t just Nyriss who was attacked. The Emperor killed them all.”*
> *“The files you showed me listed five current  members of the Dark Council plotting against him,” Meetra said, looking  to clarify. “Are you saying the Emperor’s Guard wiped out all five in  the space of a single day?”*
> *“I said he killed them all,” Scourge replied. “All  twelve members of the Dark Council—even those who weren’t part of the  conspiracy. He wanted to send a message no one would ever forget.”*




Yep


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## Fang (Jun 25, 2012)

And parroting.


----------



## Lord Stark (Jun 25, 2012)

Darth Nihilus said:


> gamelwithchips.gif
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is going no where.  







> Yep



Because Scourge saw what happened to the Dark Council.  You've proved nothing.  At this point we should just agree to disagree.  This is going nowhere.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jun 25, 2012)

So long story short

Your concession is accepted


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## Lord Stark (Jun 25, 2012)

Darth Nihilus said:


> So long story short
> 
> Your concession is accepted



Long story short, you were wrong and addressed none of my points.  I win.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jun 25, 2012)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Long story short, you were wrong and addressed none of my points.  I win.


----------



## Lord Stark (Jun 25, 2012)

You were destined to destroy me.  Do it.  Give into your hatred.


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## Fang (Jun 25, 2012)

Darth Nihilus said:


> So long story short
> 
> Your concession is accepted



Oh mein circle.


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## Lord Stark (Jun 25, 2012)

Fang said:


> Oh mein circle.


----------

