# War arc Kakashi vs Minato



## Matty (Jun 12, 2015)

Area: Destroyed Konoha
Distance: 100 meters
Mindset: IC
Knowledge: Reputation
Restrictions: None


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## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2015)

Polls matty
Polls 
when a thread is interesting like this one might be. you poll it

Minato wins more the less, would be basically like the minato vs itachi thread

60% would say minato wins


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## RBL (Jun 12, 2015)

by hype and statements Minato should win more times

by  feats, i think kakashi has a bigger chance.

war arc kakashi? does that mean DMS KAKASHI? kakashi stomps.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 12, 2015)

Kakashi has been wanking Minato all throughout shippuden. I sincerely doubt even Kakashi himself believes he'd win.

Not to mention FTG counters kamui perfectly. If Kakashi can't deal with ftg, then he can't win.


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## Bonly (Jun 12, 2015)

Kakashi gets tagged and bagged eventually. Kakashi can't stop Minato from getting into CQC range by either landing a kunai near or just using his speed to get into CQC and once Kakashi is tagged, welped as said before, he gets bagged.


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## Dr. Leonard Church (Jun 12, 2015)

So does "war arc Kakashi" mean "no PS/double Kamui"?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 12, 2015)

Kakashi can't tag minato with kamui with his instant ftg warp at his disposal. Ftg being faster than kamui just trolls all that. I know for sure kakashi is not tagging minato with body movement but i can't say the same in reverse going off feats or hype.

Minato will have this every time they fight unless one wanna argue a raiton bunshin sets up minato to be blitzed which is forced and unrealistic to me but hey...


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## Kyu (Jun 12, 2015)

Well, Kamui isn't doing shit, so Kakashi's best bet is to rely on his raiton bunshin feints and pray his sensei gets electrocuted. 

Unfortunately, Minato's ability to use clones lowers the probability of him falling victim to such a tactic.




> war arc kakashi? does that mean DMS KAKASHI? kakashi stomps





> So does "war arc Kakashi" mean "no PS/double Kamui"?



I think if the op meant DMS Kakashi he would've just said it.


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## Mercurial (Jun 12, 2015)

Minato barely reacted + evaded young Obito's Kamui. Kakashi fooled adult Obito's Kamui with his own, and showed more than once feats on par, if not better, with Minato in physical speed and reflexes. His long range Kamui, especially if head sized, is faster than Obito's and a lot more easy to accomplish and unpredictable; thanks to Kakashi's versatility, smartness and timing too, as Kakashi is also far more complete and versatile than Minato overall. Minato is just Hiraishin if he has to fight high level opponents, Kakashi has Raiton mastery, clones mastery, and Kamui as his trump card.

By feats they are top notch in reaction speed, I'd say Kakashi is physically faster and more reactive with some of his feats in the War Arc as keeping up with Gated Gai's speed multiple times, intercepting, outspeeding and outreacting Rinnegan Obito, he can also teleport at will between places or the two dimensions (Kamui and real world) with Kamui self warping, but Minato is obviously faster overall thanks to instant Hiraishin, but he also needs to place his seals. They are also two of the smartest shinobi overall but I'd say Kakashi is even smarter, his feats against Obito are more impressive and against Kaguya too (Kakashi was overpowered with DMS, Rikudo chakra and everything, but his intellect was the same), he also tricked and fooled Pain, Itachi and Zabuza. Minato's Hiraishin speed depends on his kunai and markings, Kakashi can track his kunai and has the reactions and the smartness to give him an hard time with things like Suiton + Raiton combo (electrified field) or Raiton Kage Bunshin, he just needs an instant to warp Minato's head away. In physical speed and reflexes, Kakashi is canonically shown to be at the very least on par with Minato (1), but seemed even better than Yondaime, if we account that here (2) Minato is hit two times (in between his sliced arm is also kicked away) without being able to react and Hiraishin away, but Kakashi, even if he could absolutely not be prepared for what happened and was clearly surprised, could activate and execute Kamui in a millisecond, warping away Minato's Rasengan countered by Madara (3), and that Kakashi, even in an exhausted state, could perceive and mentally react to Juudara's speed rushing to him from the back (while Minato couldn't, if he could have he would have activated Hiraishin to teleport away). 

Kakashi can use at the very least 6-7 Kamui shots (based on his War Arc feats) + Sharingan and other jutsu. So he definitely can take out Minato, especially with diversions like Raiton Kage Bunshin.

Minato has Hiraishin but to land a hit he necessarily needs to outperform Kakashi and touch him or land a seal on him; it's a lot more reliable to think that Kakashi would manage to make him touch a Raiton Kage Bunshin or to time his Kamui to warp away his head. Minato barely evaded Obito's short range Kamui, that is not as fast and not as unpredictable as Kakashi's long range Kamui; remember that Kakashi with long range Kamui could warp head sized objects in the same window of time of Obito's intangibility and of a movement of 5 cm from KCM Naruto, human sized masses so fast that people with full knowledge and top notch reflexes boosted by Mangekyo Sharingan and Rinnegan vision couldn't perceive the warping happening in front of their eyes (namely Obito ofc), giant sized masses even faster than the instant summon of the Summoning Jutsu. Even Minato couldn't perceive what happened when Kakashi used Kamui on the Gedo Mazo while Madara was summoning it... I'd bet on Kakashi for the win, obviously it would be a close and wonderful match between two geniuses, both fast, cunning and haxxed.

That's if it's 1 MS Kakashi. DMS Rikudo Kakashi clearly negs an army of Minato while no Sharingan Kakashi would be defeated by Minato as well.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2015)

^  any proof young obito kamui is slower than adult obito kamui?

or do u assume things like amaterasu a similar jutsu get faster as the user gets older?

minato avoided kamui without even knowing what it was off the bat..

kishi has also directly stated hirashin is the quicker jutsu 

there should have been polls on this thread

then we also have minato being able to get his marks close to people such as juudara and juubito who are several tiers and tiers above 1 MS kakashi

mark close to kakashi= instant blitz considering juubito marked got hit by SM Naruto a fly compared to juubito


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## Deer Lord (Jun 12, 2015)

> Kakashi can use at the very least 6-7 Kamui shots (based on his War Arc feats)


lol nope
kakashi got re-filled by kurama twice to achieve those feats.


Minato absolutely destroy kakashi.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 12, 2015)

How is minato gonna fall for a lightning clone. He knows kakashi and how he fights. He put him in the anbu afterall.

Minato is a sensor, he'd detect if kakashi has concealed any clones. And if kakashis lightning clone fails, well then thats over half of kakashis chakra gone. He doesnt have the stamina to compete with minato or ftg.

I wonder how kakashi reacts to food cart destroyer lol.


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## Bonly (Jun 12, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> How is minato gonna fall for a lightning clone. *He knows kakashi and how he fights.* He put him in the anbu afterall.



Minato died when Kakashi was in his late teens or around that general time so that means that Minato might not know exactly how Adult Kakashi would fight but OP said the knowledge is rep only so the bold doesn't matter to much for this thread. 



> Minato is a sensor, he'd detect if kakashi has concealed any clones.



Minato had to be told by Kurama to switch his chakra to sensor mode so Minato might not try to since right off the bat.



> And if kakashis lightning clone fails, well then thats over half of kakashis chakra gone. He doesnt have the stamina to compete with minato or ftg.



During the pain arc Kakashi used a lighting clone and a few other jutsu before saying he used half of his chakra so I don't think using one clone is gotta rid of half his chakra in one go.



> I wonder how kakashi reacts to food cart destroyer lol.



I feel it would be like this, then he turns into a stain.


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## ARGUS (Jun 12, 2015)

Lol Minato clowns him and sennds him back to the academy 

 -- Kamui is as non factor as it could be especially when minato already has the reactions to react to it, and his FTG has canonically evaded it, meainng that all kakashi is doing is killing himself by using kamui, and with clones around its even worse since focusing on only one minato just leaves him wide open to  get marked

 -- Not seeing how kakashi even lands a hit, if even kamui is evaded, using CQC is just suicide when he gets Lol blitzed the instant he gets marked 

 -- HE cant evne counter FCD, a giant summon landing on his head breaks his skull and fractures his entiire body,


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## Ersa (Jun 12, 2015)

Very decisive win for Minato.

Minato has everything he needs to deal with Kakashi's arsenal via Hirashin and S/T barriers. He's shown a comparable amount of intelligence and analysis to at least not fall for Kakashi's traps and he should tag Kakashi and take him down eventually. Hype and author portrayal obviously favours the golden boy.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2015)

Minato wins. Without both Mangekyo and Six Path Power, Kakashi hasn't surpassed his master at all. War Arc Kakashi could last a bit, but Minato is still overall far stronger than his genius student.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 12, 2015)

Minato is so fast, he threw his kunai at Madara's feet and entered sage mode in an insstant, before Kakashi could even initiate kamui. This same maneuver wrecks kakashi.


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## Ersa (Jun 12, 2015)

The anime is not canon.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 12, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> The anime is not canon.



lucky for you, its in the manga exactly as it was shown in the anime. In fact, manga makes it look way better. Because kakashi activates the mangekyou first, yet minato still throws his kunai, opens sm and teleports to madaras feet, faster than kakashi can even complete a kamui warp.


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## Ersa (Jun 12, 2015)

I never argued otherwise.

I'm suggesting not to use the anime as your evidence lol


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## Six (Jun 12, 2015)

Minato wins, he's still one of the best ninja to ever live despite getting trolled. Karachi's best bet would be to trick him with genjutsu and land a deadly blow. But I still say Minato wins


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 12, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> I never argued otherwise.
> 
> I'm suggesting not to use the anime as your evidence lol



why not when it's exactly the same as the manga. Literally canon material animated. There's nothing wrong with it.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 12, 2015)

I'd opt for War Arc Kakashi here.

 He easily has better reflexes than Minato with his 3T or Mangekyo Sharingan. I don't see War Arc Kakashi only having reaction speed comparable to Base Ei.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I'd opt for War Arc Kakashi here.
> 
> He easily has better reflexes than Minato with his 3T or Mangekyo Sharingan. I don't see War Arc Kakashi only having reaction speed comparable to Base Ei.


Minato could react to Juubi Jins and Eight Gated Guy. His reflexes are far superior than Kakashi's.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 12, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Minato could react to Juubi Jins and Eight Gated Guy. His reflexes are far superior than Kakashi's.



 Sure, but if that were the case, he wouldn't have gotten his arm chopped off. He certainly can't react to 8th Gate Gai in CQC, that's completely ridiculous. That's far far superior to V2 Ei's reflexes which was never once implied, never.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sure, but if that were the case, he wouldn't have gotten his arm chopped off. He certainly can't react to 8th Gate Gai in CQC, that's completely ridiculous. That's far far superior to V2 Ei's reflexes which was never once implied, never.


Minato, when he got a good gauge of V2 A's speed, effortlessly dodged his fastest punch several time. Minato got his arm chopped off by Obito since he had finished the adjustment to the Juubi Jin transformation and was caught off guard in mid attack. 

And Minato could react to Eight Gated Guy. Hell he _outpaced_ him, reacting then teleporting all of the Gudodama that were sent to intercept Guy away, with Guy not slowing down at all.

Minato was the fastest ninja in the entire manga for a good reason. His reflexes were godly. Only Naruto surpassed him there due to his reacting to Kaguya's attacks.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 12, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Minato, when he got a good gauge of V2 A's speed, effortlessly dodged his fastest punch several time. Minato got his arm chopped off by Obito since he had finished the adjustment to the Juubi Jin transformation and was caught off guard in mid attack.



 Yet Minato was never once showed having reflexes comparable to Obito during the entire fight.

 Minato never effortlessly dodged V2 Ei's fastest punch and we can't use that as evidence considering FTG is only a mental reaction. If you wanted to imply that he has superior reflexes, he has to actually perform a movement in order to evade V2 Ei's Shunshin. There's a reason why C stated that his reflexes are only comparable to Base Ei's.



> And Minato could react to Eight Gated Guy. Hell he _outpaced_ him, reacting then teleporting all of the Gudodama that were sent to intercept Guy away, with Guy not slowing down at all.



 Yet Juubi Jin Madara chopped his arm off. Even then, why would 8th Gate Gai be moving at max speed here? He merely told him to keep going, not continue moving at max speed. 



> Minato was the fastest ninja in the entire manga for a good reason. His reflexes were godly. Only Naruto surpassed him there due to his reacting to Kaguya's attacks.



 (2)

 Base Raikage's reflexes are already considered godly. 

 Minato was portrayed to be the fastest due to FTG and the fact that his reaction time is very high, but his reaction speed is far slower than V2 Ei's. All Minato does is perform one single mental reaction that allows him to evade moves that are substantially faster than him. Even Obito manages to do so with Kamui and his Kamui is far from being instantaneous.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 12, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sure, but if that were the case, he wouldn't have gotten his arm chopped off. He certainly can't react to 8th Gate Gai in CQC, that's completely ridiculous. That's far far superior to V2 Ei's reflexes which was never once implied, never.



hashirama and tobirama got half their bodies blown off by brainless juubito. Hiruzen got his entire top half blown off by juubito as well. Minato unfortunately got the strongest form of juubito. Plus they were taking risks due to edo bodies, he had no way of knowing his arm wouldn't regenerate.

I sincerely hope you aren't indicating that getting you arm chopped off by juubito is by any means a factor of slow reactions. I hope that's not how people think around here. Because I would have loved to see what kakashi would have done in that same situation.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 12, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yet Minato was never once showed having reflexes comparable to Obito during the entire fight.


He was tagging and dodging Obito's attacks in his V1 Juubi Jin form with ease.


> Minato never effortlessly dodged V2 Ei's fastest punch and we can't use that as evidence considering FTG is only a mental reaction. If you wanted to imply that he has superior reflexes, he has to actually perform a movement in order to evade V2 Ei's Shunshin. There's a reason why C stated that his reflexes are only comparable to Base Ei's.


C's statement is out of date and you're taking it out of context. When Minato gauged A's speed he:

Reacted and dodged with ease.

Minato is far faster and reflexive than A from both feats and statements. Even A considered him far above him in those areas.


> Yet Juubi Jin Madara chopped his arm off. Even then, why would 8th Gate Gai be moving at max speed here? He merely told him to keep going, not continue moving at max speed.


Since Guy had to hit Madara with _everything_ he had to break the Gudodama Shield and launch Madara through it? Him holding back wouldn't make any sense other than to degrade Minato's performance. 




> and dodged with ease.
> 
> Base Raikage's reflexes are already considered godly.
> 
> Minato was portrayed to be the fastest due to FTG and the fact that his reaction time is very high, but his reaction speed is far slower than V2 Ei's. All Minato does is perform one single mental reaction that allows him to evade moves that are substantially faster than him. Even Obito manages to do so with Kamui and his Kamui is far from being instantaneous.


...dude, if his reflexes were inferior to V2 A's, he wouldn't have been able to dodge A's Lightning Straight (his fastest punch) regardless of Hiraishin. If his reflexes can't keep up, it means nothing. Minato's reflexes would have to keep up. Since Minato _could_ react to A's fastest punch (Version 2), both being caught off guard (where A nearly hit him) and when he's on guard (where A never had a chance to hit him), it means his reflexes are superior to A's. C's statement has been retconned.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 12, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yet Minato was never once showed having reflexes comparable to Obito during the entire fight.


- He blocked v1 Juubitos kicks while looking elsewhere
- Swatted away v2 juubitos chakra arms with his tail and intercepted another tail with his claw
- He did managed to ftg away from v2 juubito before obito could destroy his body completely (still a reaction)



> Minato never effortlessly dodged V2 Ei's fastest punch and we can't use that as evidence considering FTG is only a mental reaction. If you wanted to imply that he has superior reflexes, he has to actually perform a movement in order to evade V2 Ei's Shunshin. There's a reason why C stated that his reflexes are only comparable to Base Ei's.


second time he reacted to ei was effortlessly.

why do people say things without thinking. Why does minato need to perform movement when he has ftg. You saw him opt for a superior and more effective technique. Doesn't mean he could't react a different way. He flicked a kunai above a full speed v2 eis head. That's a speed reaction greater than v2 ei. Minato aimed for a counter attack, he was not looking to evade ei with his own speed. That was never his intention.

C's statement is misinterpreted. Why don't you get a proper translation. Not to mention Ei fought in RCM the entire time against taka and were reacting to him just fine. Suigetsu and jugo reacted to him for goodness sake. So how in minato only equal tio base raikage. what nonsense.

Databook disagrees with you, it clearly states minatos reflexes are on par with RCM. That's what C was trying to say.



> Yet Juubi Jin Madara chopped his arm off. Even then, why would 8th Gate Gai be moving at max speed here? He merely told him to keep going, not continue moving at max speed.


What does Juudara's godly powers have to do with Kakashi's regular relflexes? Should I list all the characters madara has stopped in weaker forms than the one he used against minato? He speed blitzed sage naruto with no eyes or senjutsu for goodness sake.

Read the DB, read what lee said. The 5th step of evening elephant was the final and fastest stage of the attack. There was no slowing down, especially when minato just told him not to no matter what. Stop making up fiction and actually read the facts. Gai even said he will attack continuously without leaving openings. There is was no slowing down.



> and dodged with ease.
> 
> Base Raikage's reflexes are already considered godly.
> 
> Minato was portrayed to be the fastest due to FTG and the fact that his reaction time is very high, but his reaction speed is far slower than V2 Ei's. All Minato does is perform one single mental reaction that allows him to evade moves that are substantially faster than him. Even Obito manages to do so with Kamui and his Kamui is far from being instantaneous.



Scan where it says FTG is the reason for minato being the fastest. I'd like to see. If minato could only perform a mental reaction against Ei, then how did he throw that kuani above his head, catch the kunai and slash Ei, while Ei was still moving at top speed.


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## Kyu (Jun 12, 2015)

> Minato never effortlessly dodged V2 Ei's fastest punch and we can't use that as evidence considering FTG is only a mental reaction.



Minato had no trouble processing Ei's movement & warping out of the way when he got an idea how fast Ei is.

Ei's initial shunshin is what caught him by surprise. 



> There's a reason why C stated that his reflexes are only comparable to Base Ei's.



Except guys far slower than Base Minato have reacted to v1 RCM Ei.

Base Ei's greatest claim to fame is blitzing a zetsu. Minato has feats that far exceed that. 

Everything points to Base Minato's speed being comparable to Ei's v1 shroud.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 12, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Except guys far slower than Base Minato have reacted to v1 RCM Ei.
> 
> Base Ei's greatest claim to fame is blitzing a zetsu. Minato has feats that far exceed that.
> 
> Every points to Base Minato's speed being comparable to Ei's v1 shroud.



Intelligence does exist

NarutoX28 logic = 

Suigetsu's shunshin intercepted v1 Ei's shunshin
Jugo blocked and reacted to v1 ei.

Therefore Minato = Base Raikage.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He was tagging and dodging Obito's attacks in his V1 Juubi Jin form with ease.



 Tobirama did all the tagging and even then, Minato was in his KCM which drastically increases his stats. 



> C's statement is out of date and you're taking it out of context. When Minato gauged A's speed he:
> 
> Reacted and dodged with ease.


 
 Well, you convinced me...



> Minato is far faster and reflexive than A from both feats and statements. Even A considered him far above him in those areas.



 Base Minato's feats don't suggest this. His speed is only hyped up to be above Ei's due to Hiraishin, but his reflexes pale in comparison. He relies on his reaction time and a simple mental reaction to evade Ei's speed. If he truly as was as reflexive or as fast as you say he is, he wouldn't have relied on using a field of Kunai to evade Young Ei's speed.



> Since Guy had to hit Madara with _everything_ he had to break the Gudodama Shield and launch Madara through it? Him holding back wouldn't make any sense other than to degrade Minato's performance.



 He only went full speed after the Godoudama was warped away as that was the main reason Gai was hesitant to attack Juubidara.




> ...dude, if his reflexes were inferior to V2 A's, he wouldn't have been able to dodge A's Lightning Straight (his fastest punch) regardless of Hiraishin. If his reflexes can't keep up, it means nothing. Minato's reflexes would have to keep up.



 A mental reaction doesn't compare to a reaction involving movement.

 Hiraishin warp requires reaction time, that's all it is and that's completely separate from reaction speed. His reaction speed is lower than Ei's, therefore his reflexes are inferior even if both have similar reaction times.



> Since Minato _could_ react to A's fastest punch (Version 2), both being caught off guard (where A nearly hit him) and when he's on guard (where A never had a chance to hit him), it means his reflexes are superior to A's. C's statement has been retconned.



 No, it merely implies that he can perceive Ei's movements and form a mental reaction. That doesn't imply that he can evade it by normal means. If he could, then I would agree, his reflexes would be superior, but the fight implies that he can't, even moreso when we consider the fact that Young Bee reacted to Minato's unexpected warp. 
so there ya go.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Intelligence does exist
> 
> NarutoX28 logic =
> 
> ...



 I hope you're not serious. I would never use that interception feat as an argument.

 But of course you would want to degrade my intelligence, especially when you have a group of people in this thread that agree with you.


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## Rocky (Jun 13, 2015)

Kakashi doesn't really stand much of a chance to actually win this fight. He doesn't have a reliable way to keep his distance from Minato and the many tags he can make, so chances are Kakashi's going to find himself marked as the fight progresses. 

What's worse is that the copy ninja isn't the type of guy that fights on a large scale, so Minato can spread markers here and be virtually untouchable. Kamui, Kakashi's most potent offensive technique _by far_, isn't outpacing Hiraishin.

Gama Toads pretty much cement this in my opinion, as Kakashi doesn't fancy fighting gigantic enemies. He does have options and would win if it were just them, but they'd force Kakashi to take his attention off of the Yellow Flash, giving the Hokage a chance to sweep in and seal the deal with a mark. 

Hiraishin is too much for Kakashi until he's handed god chakra and Susano'o.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 13, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Tobirama did all the tagging and even then, Minato was in his KCM which drastically increases his stats.


Minato landed several tags on Juubi Jin Obito V1. Tobirama landed one AFTER he had been ripped to shreds. 

Minato's KCM truly didn't do much for him considering things. He still fought as in base.



> Base Minato's feats don't suggest this. His speed is only hyped up to be above Ei's due to Hiraishin, but his reflexes pale in comparison. He relies on his reaction time and a simple mental reaction to evade Ei's speed. If he truly as was as reflexive or as fast as you say he is, he wouldn't have relied on using a field of Kunai to evade Young Ei's speed.


Hiraishin is the best method. If he could (and as he shown) react, he didn't need Hiraishin. A simple, Konoha crossing Shunshin would have sufficed. Which, by the way, is compared to his Hiraishin speed several times in the manga. A admitted continued inferiority to Minato in EVERYTHING, reflexes and speed. And we saw in their encounter: A couldn't touch Minato despite A using his fastest speed. Minato could react to it handily.




> He only went full speed after the Godoudama was warped away as that was the main reason Gai was hesitant to attack Juubidara.




NO. FUCKING. WHERE the manga indicated Guy slowed down at all. Seriously, stop underestimating Minato's speed since you have a hate-on for him. Guy was even in the final step, the fastest. Minato reacted to it handily. So you're wrong.



> A mental reaction doesn't compare to a reaction involving movement.
> 
> Hiraishin warp requires reaction time, that's all it is and that's completely separate from reaction speed. His reaction speed is lower than Ei's, therefore his reflexes are inferior even if both have similar reaction times.


Why do you keep insisting on things disproven in the manga? If his reaction speed was inferior to A's, he wouldn't have been able to dodge AT ALL regardless of Hirashin. Are you truly this stubborn when it comes to Minato's speed? 

Manga: Minato reacts and dodges A's fastest speed. Shows better reflexes from two encounters.

YOU: Minato's reaction speed is inferior! HIRAISHIN IS THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES HIM SPECIAL! DUUUURRR!




> No, it merely implies that he can perceive Ei's movements and form a mental reaction. That doesn't imply that he can evade it by normal means. If he could, then I would agree, his reflexes would be superior, but the fight implies that he can't, even moreso when we consider the fact that Young Bee reacted to Minato's unexpected warp.
> so there ya go.


Young Bee _didn't_ react to the warp. If Minato stayed silent instead of announcing himself to force the Kumo ninja to retreat, Bee'd have gotten a kunai to the skull and would be killed without him able to do anything. 

A was unable to touch Minato at all during their encounters. Hiraishin is a useful tool, but *no where* was it stated that Minato could *only* dodge due to Hiraishin. The fact of the matter is he's one of only two people who could dodge A's fastest punch. A never said 'though that was due to Hiraishin, I'm the fastest otherwise'. No, A said 'Minato is faster than me'.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 13, 2015)

Minato defeats War-Arc Kakashi with around high difficulty.
Kakashi is still very crafty and superior in tactics compared to Minato. I'd also give him the edge in versatility and most stats (bar speed/stamina/strength); however, Yondaime's speed and unpredictability with Hiraishin will overwhelm him sooner or later. Overall, Kakashi is more skilled than Minato, but the latter has some haxx moves that can't really be dealt with so easily. Kamui is also unlikely to catch Minato with Bunshin here, though he can mess around by warping clones/kunai and whatnot. 

Difficult battle for Minato. Though he comes out victorious in the end.


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## Mercurial (Jun 13, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> How is minato gonna fall for a lightning clone. He knows kakashi and how he fights. He put him in the anbu afterall.
> 
> Minato is a sensor, he'd detect if kakashi has concealed any clones. And if kakashis lightning clone fails, well then thats over half of kakashis chakra gone. He doesnt have the stamina to compete with minato or ftg.
> 
> I wonder how kakashi reacts to food cart destroyer lol.


Itachi knew Kakashi and how he fought, he was still feinted and tricked more than once by Kakashi. Itachi isn't less smart than Minato and by feats he is definitely a better clone user. What you are saying it's just meaningless, it would make more sense for me, at this point, to say that Kakashi wins easily since he perfecty knows Minato, how he fights and the Hiraishin.

Minato needs to especially focus to sense. Kakashi fooled Pain, in spite of the Rinnegan, and Itachi, in spite of the Sharingan.

He casually reacts and sidesteps with a fast Shunshin. 



Deer Lord said:


> lol nope
> kakashi got re-filled by kurama twice to achieve those feats.
> 
> 
> Minato absolutely destroy kakashi.



Since we're in 2015, that's sad, honestly. Anyway. Kakashi was refilled by Kurama but that has nothing to go with his feats. 

Kakashi, coming from the fight with the Seven Swordsmen, White Zetsu etc, jumped together with Gai in the fight against Obito and the Bijuu. Since that moment, he used the 3T Sharingan for hours, fought a lot of panel (against the Bijuu and the Gedo Mazo), on panel used 2 Kage Bunshin, 2 Raiden, 4 Raikiri, 1 Doton: Doryuheki and 5 Kamui (in a very quick succession; Gedo Mazo's head, kunai, Rasengan, Naruto's clone, himself), one of them with a giant warp on the Gedo Mazo. Then he ended his chakra and needed for Kurama to refill him, so he could rewarp himself from the Kamui dimension and then warp and rewarp the Hachibi. Everything he did to that point is only his juice. Then some time after he received Kurama's full shroud together with everyone in the Shinobi Alliance, he was going to use it to warp away the Juubi with powered up Kamui but Obito stopped him and they went in the Kamui dimension to fight, with Kakashi losing the chakra shroud.

After he came back from the fight with Obito in the Kamui dimension, so from chapter 655, being probably more or less healed but with his vision starting to go down, Kakashi used 6 Kamui (himself, Gedo Mazo's arm, Obito, Naruto + Sakura + Gaara's sand cloud, Obito, Madara's Gudodama shield) plus Raikiri, some other jutsu in the off panel fight where, together with Minato, he was holding Obito controlled by Black Zetsu, and a lot of time with the 3T Sharingan activated, he only ran out of chakra at the end of 8th Gate Gai vs Juudara fight, where he also supported Gai in the first part.

And if you want to argue that he was refilled when he and Gai were in the BM chakra avatar, you would be painfully wrong, since that was when Naruto was in control, and at that time Naruto wasn't able to share his Kurama chakra with other people yet, as Kurama clearly talks about him having to learn that skill only some time after that, so he could never have.



Icegaze said:


> ^  any proof young obito kamui is slower than adult obito kamui?
> 
> or do u assume things like amaterasu a similar jutsu get faster as the user gets older?
> 
> ...



Obito's reaction grew up totally from his young being to his adult being. Also, We saw how Kakashi upped his warp speed since the beginning of Shippuden to the War Arc, so it's not so impossibile; anyway, Obito even waited and talked before warping Minato, and that was something Minato barely escaped. Keep on mind that Kakashi's long range warp is faster than Obito, especially if he is going to try to warp only the head or the heart away, and a lot more unpredictable, since he doesn't need to touch the opponent but only to focus his eye on him for an instant, so if Kakashi creates a good strategy or diversion, Minato's screwed, basically.

These people completely foddered him, not a good example of nothing. If marked with Hiraishin or with an Hiraishin seal very close to him I agree Minato would Rasengan blitz Kakashi on his face, but probably that wouldn't happen since Kakashi can avoid Minato's kunai coming close to him and if Minato exposes himself risks to have his head warped off before he can do anything.



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> lucky for you, its in the manga exactly as it was shown in the anime. In fact, manga makes it look way better. Because kakashi activates the mangekyou first, yet minato still throws his kunai, opens sm and teleports to madaras feet, faster than kakashi can even complete a kamui warp.



It's just a team effort so their moves are all combinated. Firstly Minato threw a kunai to teleport right in front of Madara, to try to land a surprise attack on him with Senjutsu enhanced Rasengan. Then Gaara rised up a sand wall, to cover Minato and let him literally appear from nothingness in front off Madara, and to cover Kakashi teleporting Obito in the other dimension. Kakashi intentionally didn't start Kamui warp on Obito before Gaara raised up his sand wall and Minato intentionally didn't teleport to attack Madara before Gaara raised up his sand wall. Once both were covered, Kakashi so he could warp away Obito without Madara knowing it and Minato so he could try to have a perfect surprise attack on Madara thanks to the Hiraishin kunai at his feet, both tried to do their work, but Obito regained coscience on Black Zetsu and used Kamui to resist to Kakashi's own Kamui, while Madara easily reacted and countered Minato's attempt to attack him.

They just combo'd their moves, so that they could take away Madara's Rinnegan in Obito's body (Kakashi) and try to damage Madara himself (Minato) with someone covering them (Gaara). They did everything in a perfect combo, that's just it. 

Minato was completely unable to register what happened when Kakashi suddenly used Kamui on the Gedo Mazo that Madara was summoning away. And didn't have anything faster than that (and more effective), like an Hiraishin + KCM enhanced giant Rasengan. That was KCM Minato.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Minato landed several tags on Juubi Jin Obito V1. Tobirama landed one AFTER he had been ripped to shreds.



 Please provide scans because the only thing I recall is Minato getting his arm ripped off.



> Minato's KCM truly didn't do much for him considering things. He still fought as in base.



 So Kyuubi enhancements do not make someone stronger? Where'd you get that idea from?




> Hiraishin is the best method. If he could (and as he shown) react, he didn't need Hiraishin. A simple, Konoha crossing Shunshin would have sufficed. * Which, by the way, is compared to his Hiraishin speed several times in the manga.* A admitted continued inferiority to Minato in EVERYTHING, reflexes and speed. And we saw in their encounter: A couldn't touch Minato despite A using his fastest speed. Minato could react to it handily.



 It actually hasn't. Obito praised him due to being extremely fast yet we have to consider that Base Bee who's inferior to Base Ei still managed to replicate impressive feats such as flickering behind a mountain in a mere instant. Base Ei is faster, so it's really not ridiculous to assume that Minato's ridiculously fast even with Base Ei speed.

 A admitted inferiority in speed, not reflexes. We know that Minato's reflexes are inferior to Ei's considering Ei's actually the only fighter in the manga that can fight effectively while using Shunshin. Minato has not shown the capability of doing so and has shown inferior reflexes compared to even Young Obito.

 A couldn't touch Minato based on Minato's ability to perceive and perform a mental reaction. Are we really going to claim that Rikudou Obito is more reflexive than Juubi Jin Madara because he can perform a mental reaction before he can even strike him? Please don't go there.





> facepalm
> 
> NO. FUCKING. WHERE the manga indicated Guy slowed down at all. Seriously, stop underestimating Minato's speed since you have a hate-on for him. Guy was even in the final step, the fastest. Minato reacted to it handily. So you're wrong.



 His Evening Elephant relies on his strike speed. His movement speed is used to outmaneuver Juubidara though considering he was concerned about his Truth Seeker Balls, it's not surprising that Gai would hold back with his movement speed unless it was safe.




> Why do you keep insisting on things disproven in the manga? If his reaction speed was inferior to A's, he wouldn't have been able to dodge AT ALL regardless of Hirashin. Are you truly this stubborn when it comes to Minato's speed?



 Minato can't dodge V2 Ei's Shunshin. That much is obvious.



> Manga: Minato reacts and dodges A's fastest speed. Shows better reflexes from two encounters.
> 
> YOU: Minato's reaction speed is inferior! HIRAISHIN IS THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES HIM SPECIAL! DUUUURRR!



 So Rikudou Obito shows better reflexes than Juubidara going by your logic? All right, seems legit.





> Young Bee _didn't_ react to the warp. If Minato stayed silent instead of announcing himself to force the Kumo ninja to retreat, Bee'd have gotten a kunai to the skull and would be killed without him able to do anything.



 You'd have a point if Base Bee had an exclamation mark representing surprise. However, he did not and the only one who did was that Kumo Fodder ninja, so Young Bee did anticipate his strike and reacted accordingly. 



> A was unable to touch Minato at all during their encounters. Hiraishin is a useful tool, but *no where* was it stated that Minato could *only* dodge due to Hiraishin. The fact of the matter is he's one of only two people who could dodge A's fastest punch. A never said 'though that was due to Hiraishin, I'm the fastest otherwise'. No, A said 'Minato is faster than me'.



 Really? Minato expected that he needed a field of Kunai against Young Ei. Then, Young Ei blows his expectations out of the water. It's safe to say he can't react to V2 Ei's Shunshin by relying on his reflexes.

 Ei claimed Minato was faster than him considering people consider the "Yellow Flash" as an actual speed feat. That much is obvious when his speed is compared to KCM Naruto's despite KCM Naruto's Shunshin speed being obviously inferior to Minato's Hiraishin Warp due to the fact that his speed can't be instantaneous.

 So yeah, show me scans that Minato's Shunshin is faster than Ei's because there's nothing that suggests it.

 Sorry, but I'm still going to stick with 3T Kakashi having superior reflexes than Base Minato.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2015)

Oh shit, what took you so long Raikiri? I thought I was alone here.


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## Mercurial (Jun 13, 2015)

And the ridicolous thing about Minato being able to react to 8th Gate Gai's speed. The hell, Minato was blitzed by Juubito's arm speed (when we know that in this manga dash/Shunshin speed > arm speed: base Naruto stopping Sasuke's slash but not being faster than him, Kakashi blocking Deva Path's thrust on Iruka with ease but not having a great advantage in speed in their subsequent battle, Minato stopping Kakashi's kunai thrust on Obito but then not being able to move faster than him when they both react and rush to a sudden threat, and so on many examples) not once, but twice, since he was unable to teleport before Juubito hit him destroying one of this arms, and not only that but managed to attack a Gudodama to him without him noticing; Minato wasn't able to use Hiraishin to evade a kick from Juubito, also. Minato tried to attack Juudara and was completely blitzed by his counterattack, too fast for his reflexes, Minato couldn't avoid the first hit that cut off his other arm let alone the second hit that kicked him away; he couldn't mentally react in time to Hiraishin away, not even in a second moment like he managed against Juubito. 

8th Gate Gai's speed was so high he could blitz and ragdoll Juudara with ease. That wasn't even his full speed, as with Night Guy he became so fast that he could twist the very space around him. In first place, we need only logic to say that if Minato's reflexes were painfully too low to react to Juudara, and even Juubito, he is not reacting to 8th Gate Gai at all. But do we really have to remember how in that instance Gai was slowing down himself so much that a kunai thrown by Lee was so fast that it travelled from Lee in front of dashing Gai like Gai wasn't moving at all, that Gaara's sand that was transporting Kakashi arrived just an instant after dashing Gai? So we believe that Gaara's sand (too slow to catch up the Jokei Boi or to hit Mu with a surprise attack) was as fast as 8th Gate Gai, that Lee can throw kunai so fast that they outpace 8th Gate Gai's speed? So Lee needs only a kunai and open some Gates to casually oneshot people like Nagato, for example. He literally opens some Gates, throw a faster-than-8th-Gate-Gai-kunai and pierces their head. 

Come on. Minato only reacted to the Gudodama that Juudara threw on Gai. Gai was in mid air, didn't stop himself, but slowed down, allowing his far slower team mates to combo with him and support him. Then when Kakashi warped away Madara's Gudodama shield, he rushed to hit Madara.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 13, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Please provide scans because the only thing I recall is Minato getting his arm ripped off.


He was reacting and fighting alongside Naruto and Sasuke and saved them from getting gutted and reacted to a Gudodama projectile. And he got his arm cut off since he didn't expect Obito to CHANGE mid-attack.



> So Kyuubi enhancements do not make someone stronger? Where'd you get that idea from?


They do, but not to the degree that Naruto had. Minato doesn't have much to improve when it comes to speed, after all.





> It actually hasn't. Obito praised him due to being extremely fast yet we have to consider that Base Bee who's inferior to Base Ei still managed to replicate impressive feats such as flickering behind a mountain in a mere instant. Base Ei is faster, so it's really not ridiculous to assume that Minato's ridiculously fast even with Base Ei speed.


Base Bee didn't react to shit. Minato deliberately announced his presence so Bee could get ahold of his sword for a mutual kill. Who has reacted to jumping Kamui mid-warp? No one. 


> A admitted inferiority in speed, not reflexes. We know that Minato's reflexes are inferior to Ei's considering Ei's actually the only fighter in the manga that can fight effectively while using Shunshin. Minato has not shown the capability of doing so and has shown inferior reflexes compared to even Young Obito.


If Minato's reflexes couldn't keep up with his Hiraishin, it'd be useless. Minato's speed and reflexes are superior to A's from both feats and from statements. Stop using C's outdated analysis, he probably never saw Minato vs A. 


> A couldn't touch Minato based on Minato's ability to perceive and perform a mental reaction. Are we really going to claim that Rikudou Obito is more reflexive than Juubi Jin Madara because he can perform a mental reaction before he can even strike him? Please don't go there.


'mental reaction'? Minato could turn and face A before A's fist could even connect. He could react physically. Minato could both physically react to A's fastest speed and use Hiraishin to avoid it.






> His Evening Elephant relies on his strike speed. His movement speed is used to outmaneuver Juubidara though considering he was concerned about his Truth Seeker Balls, it's not surprising that Gai would hold back with his movement speed unless it was safe.


Evening Elephant's final step requires massive high speed. Guy never slowed down. No one said he did and he was explicitly told not to. You really hate Minato if you claim this.





> Minato can't dodge V2 Ei's Shunshin. That much is obvious.




Minato dodges A's fastest punch in the manga. One of only two people who has done so. Are you really this anti-Minato if you claim THAT bit of lying bullshit?




> So Rikudou Obito shows better reflexes than Juubidara going by your logic? All right, seems legit.


Your comparison does not work. You're really showing that you have a hate on for Minato.






> You'd have a point if Base Bee had an exclamation mark representing surprise. However, he did not and the only one who did was that Kumo Fodder ninja, so Young Bee did anticipate his strike and reacted accordingly.


How could he anticipate something like that when Minato has a mine-filed of tagged kunai? Minato announced himself deliberately.




> Really? Minato expected that he needed a field of Kunai against Young Ei. Then, Young Ei blows his expectations out of the water. It's safe to say he can't react to V2 Ei's Shunshin by relying on his reflexes.


Even though he used V2 Shunshin on Minato. Dear fucking god NarutoX28, are you truly trying to ingore the fucking manga? And that's Minato's standard fighting tactic, he does that every fucking battle.


> Ei claimed Minato was faster than him considering people consider the "Yellow Flash" as an actual speed feat. That much is obvious when his speed is compared to KCM Naruto's despite KCM Naruto's Shunshin speed being obviously inferior to Minato's Hiraishin Warp due to the fact that his speed can't be instantaneous.


You defeated your own point. A says Minato was faster than him. No one else, NO ONE ELSE had dodged his fastest punch until Naruto. You're making up so many things since you flat out don't want Minato to be faster than him despite the manga rubbing it in your fucking face.


> So yeah, show me scans that Minato's Shunshin is faster than Ei's because there's nothing that suggests it.


Minato's Shunshin can cross the entirety of Konoha before Kurama completes a Bijudama. His Shunshin is often compared to his Hiraishin. 

Stop wanking A and stop downplaying Minato. A flat out says Minato's faster. END. Of. STORY. 


> Sorry, but I'm still going to stick with 3T Kakashi having superior reflexes than Base Minato.


No feats fucking suggest that besides your own hate-on.


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## Matty (Jun 13, 2015)

How do I make this (or future threads) a poll?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 13, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> How do I make this (or future threads) a poll?


Go to edit, and go advanced. Though I wouldn't use polls for debates: popularity contests aren't want you want.


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## Amol (Jun 13, 2015)

Minato wins comfortably.
Kamui is not doing anything to him and without Naruto supplying chakra Kakashi can't even spam it.
On the other hand Minato has multiple way to finish Kakashi.
Even Author portrayed Minato as superior out of two .


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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2015)

@Raikiri can u prove obito reactions improved? where is ur manga statement to this effect. cant just make things up 

kakashi kamui speed didn't increase for example, he got better control of it from like his second usage of it and was then able to send things off so quick nagato couldn't even see it. 

considering how quickly he improved and then stayed at that level. why assume obito when he fought minato hadn't already made all the improvements required from the time he fought the mist ninja

dojutsu doesn't just get better and keep getting better. same way obito reactions wont have magically improved because he got older

otherwise manga statement to prove it

to be fair though ill rep ur reply to me. u sound fair and a lot better. Kakashi long range kamui is faster I have never debated that, its stated on panel 

minato is also capable of using diversion with clones, something he should and would do when he faces someone like kakashi. Minato clone diversion however would be more lethal than kakashi's since minato can instantly get to his clone should it be defeated

kakashi sadly cannot keep spamming kamui while hirashin can be spammed forever and ever, All minato has to do is get out of kakashi LOS. not claiming he can avoid kamui but he wont need to if kakashi cant track him. 

Now considering how juubito had difficulties tracking hirashin users needless to say kakakshi will be lagging behind


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## Mercurial (Jun 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Raikiri can u prove obito reactions improved? where is ur manga statement to this effect. cant just make things up
> 
> kakashi kamui speed didn't increase for example, he got better control of it from like his second usage of it and was then able to send things off so quick nagato couldn't even see it.
> 
> ...



I don't think we need manga statements to reason upon young Obito's reactions not being as good as his adult self 17 years later, Obito was already able to keep up with Minato in physical speed and reflexes that time, I don't really think MS + Rinnegan Obito would have played it worse, don't you? I know we haven't certain proofs but I don't think that it's some crazy bullshit of fanfiction, at least. Maybe that's not true but it certain makes sense.

How did Kakashi's Kamui speed not improve, come on. His mastery of the just grew to perfection thus the speed of the warp increased accordingly. From this:



To this.








Even if Deidara was completely helpless against that not mastered version of Kamui (he admitted it more than once) and even if just later Kakashi could warp the forest-sized explosion in a second, that just doesn't measure up to Kakashi warping head sized objects in the same window of time of Obito's intangibility and of a movement of 5 cm from KCM Naruto (Naruto's Rasengan), human sized masses before a Kamui propelled stake could hit them from point blank, so fast that Obito with full knowledge and top notch reflexes boosted by Mangekyo Sharingan and Rinnegan vision couldn't perceive the warping happening in front of their eyes (Naruto's clone rushing against Obito), things hella fast and a lot bigger than a person even if two in a single row (Sasuke's Susanoo arrow), surprise attacks from Juubi jinchuriki (Minato's arm + Rasengan), giant sized masses in the meantime of the instant summon of the Summoning Jutsu. Even Minato himself couldn't perceive what happened when Kakashi used Kamui on the Gedo Mazo while Madara was summoning it, like Pain/Nagato didn't notice Kakashi's Kamui on the Shinra Tensei propelled nail. Even in the 3rd databook it's said that Kakashi's great skill with a wonderful jutsu like the Kamui will only increase with his better mastery of the Mangekyo, making him reach new heights; I think that Rinnegan Madara's praise on Kakashi's worthy as a dojutsu user confirms it.

Yeah Minato's clone diversions will be more dangerous due to Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi but Minato isn't a clone user as skilled as Kakashi is, also Minato has to use CQC attacks, if he gets feinted with a Raiton Kage Bunshin, and he could be, even if certainly that's not an easy task, he would be fucked because Kakashi really needs nothing more than a split second to warp his head away; that would be even faster than warp his entire body, something that he doesn't actually need. And Kakashi's offensive Kamui speed being > Obito's it's not the only factor: Obito had to grab Minato in CQC to start his Kamui, Kakashi could simply put on a diversion, to gain just a split second to focus on Minato's head and warp him: not only faster but also more impredictable and easier to pull off, especially when Kakashi is maybe the smartest tactical fighter in the manga with a very very good skillset in trickery and diversions.

It's true that Minato can spam Hiraishin while Kakashi can't spam (not at the samel level of pure quantity) his Kamui, but Kakashi's skill, timing and precision with the just is such that he won't certainly waste it. He would use only at (what he think it is) the right moment, I think he could also do things like feint a Kamui warp, not at full speed, to have Minato warp himself on a kunai, then preempt the teleporting (not actually following the teleporting, but trying to preempt where Minato would teleport; if Ei could think about that, well Kakashi certainly could being like a thousand times smarter than the Raikage; he could also force Minato to teleport to a kunai just to he can preempt it perfectly to time his next Kamui) as he could insta-warp Minato at full speed once he reappeared; I think that's a good strategy, more or less that's what Kakashi did to fool Obito, he feinted to warp a Rasengan not using his full warp speed, then he made look like he failed to make in time before the clone was destroyed while actually timed his real Kamui to warp at his best possible speed not only the Rasengan but the entire clone.

Yeah but Juubito had to face EMS Sasuke + KCM/BSM Naruto + KCM/BM Minato + Tobirama all together, don't forget it. He negged everyone of them when 1 vs 1. Anyway I'm not saying MS Kakashi negs Minato, but that he has definitely more than a shot to defeat the Fourth.

And thanks for the +rep. I will pay it back


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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> I don't think we need manga statements to reason upon young Obito's reactions not being as good as his adult self 17 years later, Obito was already able to keep up with Minato in physical speed and reflexes that time, I don't really think MS + Rinnegan Obito would have played it worse, don't you? I know we haven't certain proofs but I don't think that it's some crazy bullshit of fanfiction, at least. Maybe that's not true but it certain makes sense.
> 
> How did Kakashi's Kamui speed not improve, come on. His mastery of the just grew to perfection thus the speed of the warp increased accordingly. From this:
> 
> ...



actually we do need manga statements to state someone has improved. otherwise we can equally say itachi amaterasu when he initially got it was slower than it was during his battle with sasuke. 

why would the principle of the jutsu change. why would his eyes suddenly get better at perceiving things?

obito had no statement or shown improvements. 

All kakashi said against deidara was he couldn't place the barrier properly.the speed of the jutsu didn't actually improve 

when he could place and size the barrier properly things vanished instantly. that's better control not the speed of kamui improving 

cuz like I said on second try the explosion vanished because he could place the barrier properly 

I think that has more to do with his difficulty in hitting moving targets with kamui that aren't running into it 

kakashi could feint minato no doubt, however minato is more likely to because minato feints waste no chakra from him and he got more than kakashi. kakashi only possible way of killing minato is kamui 

Minato managed to throw 6 kunai around a juubi jin, if minato uses his rasengan flash dance kakashi is helpless. he cannot use kamui to escape as that requires he uses it twice. chakra wasted for a simple escape and he cannot counter otherwise, because he could hit a clone with kamui vs the original 

u get why most would claim minato wins right. he got a clear speed and chakra advantage here

I say 70% of the time minato should win. But agreeably I don't think minato can escape kamui, but rather ensure kakashi doesn't track him

PS: I don't see why u would claim kakashi is a more accomplished clone user. yes he got raiton bunshin but he cant auto swap with his clone, that trumps raiton bunshin

kakashi attack pattern would also get predictable. he will try to use kamui to end it since everything else is too slow. therefore all minato need to is get behind LOS

PS: being a sensor would alert him if a clone is being used. he wont be able to tell which is the clone and which is the original however if he senses 2 chakra signatures from kakashi then the first one is the bait. obvious tactic. minato can fish him out with his own clone


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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2015)

minato used 2 hirashin to escape goudama

kamui speed needed to be doubled to allow kakashi to do that

so actually raikiri 19 I don't think kakashi stands a chance

goudama already proved too fast for a singular kamui. yet hirashin could be used twice, that's also minato reactions coming into play


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 13, 2015)

Kamui dimension is escapable. Kakashi cannot trap minato in there, its been proven that other dimensions can be escaped.

Minato has space time ninjutsu and can open a tear in space into another dimesion, so im sure he has the means to escape. Plus the fact that Sasuke proved in the manga that you can still use the summoning jutsu in other dimensions. He summoned his hawk into kaguyas lava dimension.

Which means minato can use the reverse summoning jutsu to come back anytime he wants. Kamui is a non factor. Its too slow for ftg, and he dimesnion can be escaped.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 13, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Minato is so fast, he threw his kunai at Madara's feet and entered sage mode in an insstant, before Kakashi could even initiate kamui. This same maneuver wrecks kakashi.



Yeah, its not like they were trying to coordinate their attacks or anything


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 13, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah, its not like they were trying to coordinate their attacks or anything



Kakashi was trying to warp obito as fast as possible. Plus im talking about the fact that minato threw a kunai after Kakashi already activated mangeyou, then immediately entered sm and then formed a rasengan and teleported to madaras feet. Faster than kakashi kamui could activate.

My point is kamui cannot seal with minato in any way, shape or form. His kunai throwing speed, and jutsu activation speed is too much.


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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2015)

@Rasen you might be right in which case this isn't even a match up at all 

though if so OP restrict it. assume minato cannot escape or this match is pointless


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## Mercurial (Jun 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> actually we do need manga statements to state someone has improved. otherwise we can equally say itachi amaterasu when he initially got it was slower than it was during his battle with sasuke.
> 
> why would the principle of the jutsu change. why would his eyes suddenly get better at perceiving things?
> 
> ...



The fact that he couldn't aim well led him to not be able to do the insta-warps we saw in the War Arc. So it's like going around the argument, was it because of not enough control and aim, was it for whatever reason, but his Kamui warp was slower. 

The Juubi jinchuriki didn't do anything to stop him. Moot point. Juubito was having a metamorphosis, everyone could have done everything. When he tried to attack Juubito he failed miserably. Not saying that for example Kakashi's dash with Raikiri would have fared better, obviously. But to say that Minato did nothing in that situation. He just set up his jutsu with no one trying to stop him, and when he actually tried to attack he was stomped, like it happened against Juudara.

Yeah Minato could win, sure, but I think Kakashi would have more chances, seeing as countering Hiraishin is easier for him that countering Kamui; Hiraishin is Minato's bread and butter, Kamui it's Kakashi's trump card. Take away Minato's space-time jutsu and take away Kakashi's Mangekyo, the first has chances against the second.

Because Kakashi has great feats with clone feints, while Minato has not, he never used them other than just to support his combo attacks, granted we didn't see him so much but that is. Then yeah there's to choose between a clone that can't be spammed but if you touch it you are electrocuted and paralyzed, and another that swaps and teleports with the original, so it depends, sometimes one could be better sometimes another.

Kakashi is everything bar predictable. As said, for example, he can feint Minato using a "slow" Kamui to force him teleport to a kunai where he would immediately use a max speed Kamui warp preempting his appearance; a similar tactic to the one he used to fool Obito. He can just use Kamui right off the bat, that would be faster than Minato launching kunai and having to react to the Kamui warp. He can flood the area near to him with Suiton and then electrify it flowing Raiton all around, that way using Hiraishin with metal kunai would be really hard. He can fool him with a Raiton Kage Bunshin, then insta warp his head off with Kamui or Raikiri blitz while he is paralyzed; well one could argue that Hiraishin is a mental reaction so Minato could be able to activate in that situation, but the initial shock would be enough time for Kakashi to kill him.



Icegaze said:


> minato used 2 hirashin to escape goudama
> 
> kamui speed needed to be doubled to allow kakashi to do that
> 
> ...



Kakashi had to teleport the entire body of Obito; Kakashi here would have to teleport only Minato's head, or a portion of his chest, he would have to reason to waste more chakra and to make the warp last longer by trying to warp all Minato's body.

While long range Kamui warp is nearly instant, Hiraishin is instant, obviously, but you have to remember that the second will be used only after the first has been already started. So, will Minato react and Hiraishin away in time, when he barely made it against a slower and more predictable Kamui? When Kakashi could set up a distraction and warp him without him even seeing as he could be hidden somewhere watching him (Minato is a sensor but sensing is a passive skill)? I don't really know. Especially when Minato himself couldn't tell what happened when Kakashi used Kamui right off the bat on the Gedo Mazo while Madara was summoning it.



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Kamui dimension is escapable. Kakashi cannot trap minato in there, its been proven that other dimensions can be escaped.
> 
> Minato has space time ninjutsu and can open a tear in space into another dimesion, so im sure he has the means to escape. Plus the fact that Sasuke proved in the manga that you can still use the summoning jutsu in other dimensions. He summoned his hawk into kaguyas lava dimension.
> 
> Which means minato can use the reverse summoning jutsu to come back anytime he wants. Kamui is a non factor. Its too slow for ftg, and he dimesnion can be escaped.



No, come on, not this shit still in 2015. The entire leit motiv of the Obito vs Minato fight was that the first to land a hit on the other would have won. Minato by landing a deadly blow faster than intangibilty activation and Obito by touching and warping away the enemy before the teleportation. It would make no sense in the first place if Minato couldn't have lost anyway because even if warped he would have come back, he himself even acknowledged that it would have been his total lost if he did let the enemy grab him. Not to mention how totally non-sensical would have been for Obito, that knew that Minato could have used Hiraishin, to try everything to warp him if he could run away that easily. 

Kamui dimension is something different. Sensors (like Karin) can't trace the chakra of people coming from there. Minato wouldn't be able to sense his marks in the real world. Why do you think that Kakashi had to teleport Naruto's clone in a split second at the right moment to hit Obito, instead of simply sending a clone with a Rasengan ready to wait for Obito to phase? Because the clone would have poofed just some moments after, due to chakra connection ending. Infact we never saw that clone after the mask breaking, and Naruto would have had really no reason to release it; on the opposite.

And the funny thing it's that in any case, Kakashi really has no reason to try to warp Minato's entire body in the Kamui dimension, in first place. Kakashi is no Obito. He has no reason to attack like that: he wastes more chakra, warping a bigger objective, and wastes more time, increasing the chances for Minato to Hiraishin away in time. That's non-sensical at all. Kakashi would warp Minato's head, nothing more. Or a part of his chest, even better. He has literally no reason to warp his entire body.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 13, 2015)

^^^

2015 and some people think kakashi is even remotely a match for minato lol

First of all, i never said minato would ftg out of there to his markings. I said he can open a space time barrier and escape through there. Space time barrier is a portal to other dimensions, so he should be able to get back through there. Also obito knew very little about how minatos space time ninjutsu worked. Why do you think he lost in the first place, because the moron didnt know minato could teleport to his kunai. Just because obito things he would have won, doesnt mean he would have. First time he sent kakashi to the other dimesion, he didnt even realise kakashi could come back on his own. Obito isnt that smart.

Kamui dimension is not different, dont make things up. It doesnt matter what dimension karin is in. She would never be able to sense anyones chakra from a different dimension. You didnt disprove my point. Sasuke summoned his hawk from earth to kaguyas dimension. Kaguya>>>>obitos dimension. Obito even proved that his eyes can open portals to other dimensions. Minato has a better understanding and knowledge of how space time ninjutsu works, far better than kakashi could ever. Minato invented the space time barrier which opens itself opens its own hole to another dimension. Pks stop telling stories and making up rubbish, i hate when people speculate. Narutos clone did not go poof in the dimension because of chakra connection ending, get proof or be quiet. Clones can disperse themselves, that clone disappeared off panel, so dontt make up nonsense.

Kakashi isnt sniping any body parts because his kamui isnt fast enough against ftg. In order for kakashi to even snipe things, he has to build up the chakra. Tiny objects like kunai and rasengan shouldnt even be brought up, those are the only objects kakashi can warp in an instant. Kakashi cant even move his hand faster than minato can intercept it with shunshin.

Funny thing about this matchup is that once minato scatters his 30 plus kunai. Its over for kakashi. He cannot react and predict where minato will come from. Nor can he defelct all those kunai. And clone feints dont work when your opponent can see you.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2015)

Minato's FTG isn't connected to Obito's Kamui while Kakashi's is, so the likelihood of Minato warping out of Kamui land is very slim.


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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> The fact that he couldn't aim well led him to not be able to do the insta-warps we saw in the War Arc. So it's like going around the argument, was it because of not enough control and aim, was it for whatever reason, but his Kamui warp was slower.



ur right he got better with it. 



> The Juubi jinchuriki didn't do anything to stop him. Moot point. Juubito was having a metamorphosis, everyone could have done everything. When he tried to attack Juubito he failed miserably. Not saying that for example Kakashi's dash with Raikiri would have fared better, obviously. But to say that Minato did nothing in that situation. He just set up his jutsu with no one trying to stop him, and when he actually tried to attack he was stomped, like it happened against Juudara.



why wont they is the question. madara and obito have full knowledge on it. obito got trolled by SM Naruto because of it. so again I ask why wont he prevent it if he could? think about it



> Yeah Minato could win, sure, but I think Kakashi would have more chances, seeing as countering Hiraishin is easier for him that countering Kamui; Hiraishin is Minato's bread and butter, Kamui it's Kakashi's trump card. Take away Minato's space-time jutsu and take away Kakashi's Mangekyo, the first has chances against the second.



explain how countering hirashin which can be used far more often is easier than countering kamui. 




> Because Kakashi has great feats with clone feints, while Minato has not, he never used them other than just to support his combo attacks, granted we didn't see him so much but that is. Then yeah there's to choose between a clone that can't be spammed but if you touch it you are electrocuted and paralyzed, and another that swaps and teleports with the original, so it depends, sometimes one could be better sometimes another.



hashirama has no feats with clone feints does that mean he isn't good at it. feats isn't enough to just say kakashi is better than minato at using a jutsu minato can use more freely and even can combine it with hirashin to make it far more lethal than any clone feint kakashi can muster 



> Kakashi is everything bar predictable. As said, for example, he can feint Minato using a "slow" Kamui to force him teleport to a kunai where he would immediately use a max speed Kamui warp preempting his appearance; a similar tactic to the one he used to fool Obito. He can just use Kamui right off the bat, that would be faster than Minato launching kunai and having to react to the Kamui warp. He can flood the area near to him with Suiton and then electrify it flowing Raiton all around, that way using Hiraishin with metal kunai would be really hard. He can fool him with a Raiton Kage Bunshin, then insta warp his head off with Kamui or Raikiri blitz while he is paralyzed; well one could argue that Hiraishin is a mental reaction so Minato could be able to activate in that situation, but the initial shock would be enough time for Kakashi to kill him.



true kakashi isn't predictable. however considering off the bat and through out he will be attacking with kamui he becomes predictable. what else do u want him to do. run at minato with a raikiri?

ur situation is fair enough what happens. if there are 30 kunai on the battlefield which there easily can be?

how does kakashi predict where he jumps to then? Bee flash back and A flash back 2 separate occasions we see the battlefield is littered with kunai everywhere. 

minato reacted to goudama and used hirashin twice. the same goudama that needed kamui speed to be doubled. minato should react to kakashi kamui just fine




> Kakashi had to teleport the entire body of Obito; Kakashi here would have to teleport only Minato's head, or a portion of his chest, he would have to reason to waste more chakra and to make the warp last longer by trying to warp all Minato's body.



true however. minato reacted to a jutsu fast enough to force kamui speed be doubled. yes it was on a hole body. but this goes to show minato reaction time here. he could use hirashin twice !!!

goudama despite being an instant negating tech didn't even have time to take effect 



> While long range Kamui warp is nearly instant, Hiraishin is instant, obviously, but you have to remember that the second will be used only after the first has been already started. So, will Minato react and Hiraishin away in time, when he barely made it against a slower and more predictable Kamui? When Kakashi could set up a distraction and warp him without him even seeing as he could be hidden somewhere watching him (Minato is a sensor but sensing is a passive skill)? I don't really know. Especially when Minato himself couldn't tell what happened when Kakashi used Kamui right off the bat on the Gedo Mazo while Madara was summoning it.



why assume minato will be reacting to kamui? vs being the 1 attacking

minato got better reactions, believe it or not. if minato lets go of a kunai, a head wrap is casually avoided. kakashi cant instantly shift the position of his eyes. 

all minato needs to do to avoid head wrap is let go of any kunai and poof he escapes it. a guy who could react to goudama and use hirashin twice should react to kamui just fine



> No, come on, not this shit still in 2015. The entire leit motiv of the Obito vs Minato fight was that the first to land a hit on the other would have won. Minato by landing a deadly blow faster than intangibilty activation and Obito by touching and warping away the enemy before the teleportation. It would make no sense in the first place if Minato couldn't have lost anyway because even if warped he would have come back, he himself even acknowledged that it would have been his total lost if he did let the enemy grab him. Not to mention how totally non-sensical would have been for Obito, that knew that Minato could have used Hiraishin, to try everything to warp him if he could run away that easily.



true and I hope it is. yh am convinced. 



> Kamui dimension is something different. Sensors (like Karin) can't trace the chakra of people coming from there. Minato wouldn't be able to sense his marks in the real world. Why do you think that Kakashi had to teleport Naruto's clone in a split second at the right moment to hit Obito, instead of simply sending a clone with a Rasengan ready to wait for Obito to phase? Because the clone would have poofed just some moments after, due to chakra connection ending. Infact we never saw that clone after the mask breaking, and Naruto would have had really no reason to release it; on the opposite.



true and kaguya dimension tobirama could still sense her 



> And the funny thing it's that in any case, Kakashi really has no reason to try to warp Minato's entire body in the Kamui dimension, in first place. Kakashi is no Obito. He has no reason to attack like that: he wastes more chakra, warping a bigger objective, and wastes more time, increasing the chances for Minato to Hiraishin away in time. That's non-sensical at all. Kakashi would warp Minato's head, nothing more. Or a part of his chest, even better. He has literally no reason to warp his entire body.



head wrap is avoided by letting go of a kunai. not even flicking it. just letting go. and poof he avoids it. that simply..we already saw he could flick it against V2 A speed and the guy could use hirashin twice against goudama


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## Kaiser (Jun 13, 2015)

Minato will win. Kakashi lacks AOE techniques, so his techniques are never tagging Minato. Hiding while using clones doesn't help either with Minato's sensory abilities and he is never reacting to a FTG+rasengan combo. If Minato add clones and summons into it, the match is over


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He was reacting and fighting alongside Naruto and Sasuke and saved them from getting gutted and reacted to a Gudodama projectile. And he got his arm cut off since he didn't expect Obito to CHANGE mid-attack.



 Yet he still failed to react and was tagged. He only successfully evade the attack due to Hiraishin yet clearly, his reflexes were inferior or he wouldn't have been tagged.

 You still failed to mention any instances where Minato tagged Juubito, so your argument is meaningless.




> They do, but not to the degree that Naruto had. Minato doesn't have much to improve when it comes to speed, after all.



 A substantial increase to the quality of his chakra drastically increases one's physical capabilities and the chakra used for Shunshin. Minato not having much to improve when it comes to speed is downright false. 




> Base Bee didn't react to shit. Minato deliberately announced his presence so Bee could get ahold of his sword for a mutual kill. Who has reacted to jumping Kamui mid-warp? No one.



 Except only the Kumo Fodder displayed shock when Minato managed to warp behind Bee. Bee, however, displayed no exclamation marks which implies he reacted accordingly.



> If Minato's reflexes couldn't keep up with his Hiraishin, it'd be useless. Minato's speed and reflexes are superior to A's from both feats and from statements. Stop using C's outdated analysis, he probably never saw Minato vs A.



 His reflexes can't keep up with Hiraishin. If that were the case, then all his strikes would be formulated the instant he completes his warp which is downright false. Even Ei implies he'd manage to crush Minato the instant he warps with just his sheer speed. Minato's reflexes cannot keep up with his Hiraishin unless you can prove his strikes are formulated prior to even completing his warp.

 C's outdated analysis was never contradicted and was supposed to emphasize Ei's speed and reflexes which were hyped considerably. It seems rather specific to compare Ei's already incredible reflexes and speed to Minato's own speed and reflexes without even taking into consideration of Raikage's Raiton Cloak.



> 'mental reaction'? Minato could turn and face A before A's fist could even connect. He could react physically. Minato could both physically react to A's fastest speed and use Hiraishin to avoid it.



explained

 His head was turned before Ei even used Shunshin. Furthermore, turning your head requires a far smaller degree of motion compared to the distance Ei flickered to which renders your argument invalid.




> Evening Elephant's final step requires massive high speed. Guy never slowed down. No one said he did and he was explicitly told not to. You really hate Minato if you claim this.



 Evening Elephant is a series of punches, therefore, it relies heavily on Gai's strike speed and not his movement speed similar to Hirudora only relying on Gai's strike speed as both are just fast punches.



> Minato dodges A's fastest punch in the manga. One of only two people who has done so. Are you really this anti-Minato if you claim THAT bit of lying bullshit?



 Minato never dodged Ei's fastest punch though. 




> Your comparison does not work. You're really showing that you have a hate on for Minato.




 Both uses techniques that far exceed one's movement speed, so my comparison isn't invalid and you haven't proven why. 




> How could he anticipate something like that when Minato has a mine-filed of tagged kunai? Minato announced himself deliberately.



 Ei implied he would be able to do so and crush Minato with his speed, hence why he relied on warping behind Bee which failed miserably.




> Even though he used V2 Shunshin on Minato. Dear fucking god NarutoX28, are you truly trying to ingore the fucking manga? And that's Minato's standard fighting tactic, he does that every fucking battle.



 Minato never has deliberately thrown a field of Kunai out in the open against any opponent other than the Raikage.



> You defeated your own point. A says Minato was faster than him. No one else, NO ONE ELSE had dodged his fastest punch until Naruto. You're making up so many things since you flat out don't want Minato to be faster than him despite the manga rubbing it in your fucking face.



 People considered the Yellow Flash as an actual speed feat as it was compared to KCM Naruto's Shunshin even though we both know that it's actually an S/T that occurs instantaneously.



> Minato's Shunshin can cross the entirety of Konoha before Kurama completes a Bijudama. His Shunshin is often compared to his Hiraishin.



 When was his Shunshin compared to his Hiraishin.

 Personally, I don't see that Shunshin feat as enough to imply that Minato's Shunshin exceeds V2 Ei's. Even Base Hashirama's physical speed was enough to traverse a relatively large distance during Madara's Kyuubisano'os charge time and the extra momentum Madara added to the Bijuudama. Taking into consideration that Base Ei is far more proficient in Shunshin than Base Bee implies that someone with relative speed can replicate that feat when the latter can shunshin to the other side of a mountain in a mere instant, something that only a sensor would have been able to detect.



> Stop wanking A and stop downplaying Minato. A flat out says Minato's faster. END. Of. STORY.
> 
> No feats fucking suggest that besides your own hate-on.



 Stop wanking Minato and downplaying Ei. 

 I can see you're butthurt about my opinion which is why you felt the need to neg me. As always, you resort to negs when somebody disagrees with your opinion.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 13, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Kakashi was trying to warp obito as fast as possible. Plus im talking about the fact that minato threw a kunai after Kakashi already activated mangeyou, then immediately entered sm and then formed a rasengan and teleported to madaras feet. Faster than kakashi kamui could activate.
> 
> My point is kamui cannot seal with minato in any way, shape or form. His kunai throwing speed, and jutsu activation speed is too much.


I am pretty sure they used their techniques in a certain order and not randomly.
In that sense Minato had to go first and then Gaara & Kakashi.

As for Kamui vs Minato, I agree. Minato should be able to Hirashin away.


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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2015)

@NarutoX28 was A assessment of being able to follow minato shown in the end or didn't he get casually played

A couldn't keep up even slightly with minato. not even a little bit

minato still reacted to goudama which require kamui speed be doubled to allow obito to escape

minato reacted and used hirashin twice. twice! minato reactions aren't to be trifled with 

also when it comes to speed A did not improve unless u can prove he can. where are ur manga statements to that effect. there is something such as reaching the pinnacle of ur abilities



A during that period was in time of war and traning everyday and had a rival so to speak to face off against. stands to reason that he would have been in top shape then 

times of peace slow people down and make them weaker. A hasn't had a fight in years till the manga started that we know of. 1 cant just assume he kept improving when sasuke and Naruto have shown in gaiden how much weaker they have gotten due to peace

till a statement shows A got faster u cannot assume he did. that's just false.


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## Santoryu (Jun 13, 2015)

Minato would win.

The instantaeous nature of Hiraishin, coupled with Minato's flawless execution ensures his survival against Kakaashi's space time jutsu. While Kakashi can keep pace with Minato in close quarters, he'd be on the back foot in the long run, considering his opponent's naturally faster than him, and can tag him. I think Kakashi is the better tactician, but there isn't a lot in it, it's not going to be a decisive factor. DMS Kakashi would destroy his sensei though.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 13, 2015)

Even santoryu admitted minato would win c'mon now...


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## thechickensage (Jun 14, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> thanks to Kakashi's versatility, smartness and timing too, as Kakashi is also far more complete and versatile than Minato overall. Minato is just Hiraishin if he has to fight high level opponents, Kakashi has Raiton mastery, clones mastery, and Kamui as his trump card.
> 
> By feats they are top notch in reaction speed, I'd say *Kakashi is physically faster and more reactive *... *They are also two of the smartest shinobi overall but I'd say Kakashi is even smarter*,  In physical speed and reflexes, Kakashi is canonically shown to be at the very least on par with Minato



They are nearly clones of each other, and both are *THE* genius of their generation, so I think it's safer to say that they are pretty much equal in speed/physicality/taijutsu.  They're almost equal in every way...so let's look at the unique advantages.  Niether of them has any real weaknesses.  Both are experts in distraction, combat sense, ninja tools, and analysis.

*Kakashi:*
- far greater number of jutsus to choose from
- elemental combinations
- heavy use of clones/substitutions when he can
- kamui
- limited chakra supply (lighting clones, kamui, are pretty draining techniques)
- trained with gai so extreme end of normal shinobi endurance and taijutsu

*Minato:*
- rasengans
- all those sealing jutsu, although we haven't really seen them used in regular combat
- Sage techniques + sage physical training
- summons
- flying thunder god

As you mention, kamui is maybe the strongest technique that kakashi has...but the person who it would be worst against is basically Minato.  Kakashi needs a person to follow a trajectory, or be pinned down in one spot for Kamui to really work.  And even with just reaction speed, Minato has a good chance of never getting hit...but add flying thunder god, and you...pretty much would never hit him.  

Take away kamui and FTG, i would say that base minato and kakashi are almost completely equal.  

But add in sage mode and kakashi is basically screwed in this fight.  Sage mode increases durability, speed, strength, quickness, sensing, etc...

I think kakashi is just below kage level.  Like maxxed-out jounin.  Like best jounin of all time.

If they fought to the death 100 times:
................................................................................Kakashi....Minato
Kakashi no sharingan, minato no sage or FTG:.....   50 wins.....50 wins
Kakashi kamui, minato sage:....................................20 wins.....80 wins
Kakashi kamui, minato FTG:....................................35 wins..... 65 wins
kakashi kamui, minato sage + FTG:.........................10 wins......90 wins
kakashi, minato sage+FTG+summons:....................9 wins.....91 wins
Kakashi DMS, Minato with kyuubi:........................... 65 wins.....35 wins

But probably rather than ending in death, one of them would retreat if wounded or in a disadvantageous position....it's part of what makes them good shinobis.

No matter what, it's a good fight, but I think Kakashi's strongest jutsu is almost nullified by Minato's


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## Icegaze (Jun 14, 2015)

if kakashi had obito usage of kamui with his intelligence he could beat minato


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## thechickensage (Jun 14, 2015)

What are the differences between kakashi's and obito's kamui?

Obito's was smooth, continuous, and under his complete control.  He could easily transfer parts of his body, or weapons or jutsus to his different dimension.  

Kakashi had trouble aiming, was slower, and never applied to his own body, right?  Kakashi's kamui was only for long-distance warping into that dimension, not for warping himself away.    Is that correct?  Kamui never actually amounted to much when used by kakashi.

Kakashi with obito's kamui be equal to or slightly better than Minato with FTG but no sage mode.


*How would you fine people of the battledome cope with an enemy who has kamui?*
Kamui itself can be negated if you send a long-burning/exploding jutsu into his other dimension.  Like let's say acid mist that covers a 10m x 10m x 10m volume.  You get the kamui user to kamui away your area of effect attack, it basically poisons Kamui Land.  then you fight like normal, but without exposing parts of your body to be kamui-ed.   Or you can throw a kunai that generates exploding tags or whatever...

So you use ninja tools, exploding tags, area of effect attacks in Regular Land...attacks that normally the kamui user would be able to absorb by warping himself away.  

That way, you have basically prevented effective use of kamui.  The person can't use it to retreat since you sent white phosphorous bombs to kamui land.


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## Bonly (Jun 14, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Kakashi had trouble aiming,



Kakashi fixed that problem later throughout the manga so that's not even a negative anymore.



> and never applied to his own body, right?
> 
> not for warping himself away.



Obito sent Kakashi to boxland yet Kakashi managed to get back by using Kamui.  The only way for Kakashi to get back is for him to use Kamui on his own body aka warping himself away.




> Kakashi's kamui was only for long-distance warping into that dimension,



Kakashi has used Kamui on himself and he has used Kamui at close range so no it's not only for long distance warping.



> Is that correct?



Not most of it.



> Kamui *never actually amounted to much* when used by kakashi.



Do you even read the manga?


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## Mercurial (Jun 14, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> As you mention, kamui is maybe the strongest technique that kakashi has...but the person who it would be worst against is basically Minato.  Kakashi needs a person to follow a trajectory, or be pinned down in one spot for Kamui to really work.  And even with just reaction speed, Minato has a good chance of never getting hit...but add flying thunder god, and you...pretty much would never hit him.
> 
> Take away kamui and FTG, i would say that base minato and kakashi are almost completely equal.
> 
> ...



Sadly his feats show otherwise.

Hell no. Mangekyo is Kakashi's trump card. FTG is Minato's bread and butter. Without using the Mangekyo, Kakashi could fend off Hidan + Kakuzu defending himself and team 10, fight Pain's strongest body + Pain second strongest body cornering and tricking them not once but twice, fight at the same level of Gated Gai holding his own against some fucking Bijuu that already kicked Hachibi and KCM Naruto's ass. Minato without FTG is definitely skilled and good, but what he has, smartness, speed, fuuinjutsu, Rasengan, Kage Bunshin and toad summons. Without Mangekyo, Kakashi has smartness, speed, great taijutsu with 1st Gate as additional power up, Sharingan precognition, copy and genjutsu offense/defense, Raiton Kage Bunshin, Kage Bunshin, Raikiri, Raiden, Raikiri powered weapons, Raikiri shaped in Raiton Wolf for mid/long distance, Rasengan, Doton underground fast travelling and wall for defenses, powerful Suiton ninjutsu that he can combo with Raiton.

Minato's Sage Mode is shit, he himself admitted that. There's no denying in it. He himself admitted it was no good thus he never used that in a fight. He never used even to add senjutsu against Juubito, he never used once if not for the brief instance against Juudara. 

You must be joking. Kakashi is above most kages, and very easily with his War Arc feats. 

DMS Kakashi absolutely negs KCM/BM Minato. Like he completely speedblitzes him with Kamui Raikiri, stomps him with Perfect Susanoo slash, fucks him up spamming Kamui Shuriken, warps him before he can do anything with Kamui. DMS Kakashi is tier above KCM/BM Minato.



thechickensage said:


> What are the differences between kakashi's and obito's kamui?
> 
> Obito's was smooth, continuous, and under his complete control.  He could easily transfer parts of his body, or weapons or jutsus to his different dimension.
> 
> ...


What in the hell? They just have different powers because the eyes they have are different. Obito with the right eye can phase, teleport himself, warp what he touches and rewarp things out of the other dimension. Kakashi with the left eye can teleport himself, warp away what he focuses his eye on by creating a space-time hole, rewarp things out of the other dimension.

You must be still in 2007 or something like that. That's sad. Obito with his Kamui was completely fooled by Kakashi's perfect usage of his own Kamui. Fucking Rinnegan Madara praised Kakashi's wielding of Kamui as a poweful dojutsu user. 

If with that you mean Kakashi with both left and right eye powers + Perfect Susanoo + Rikudo chakra, he negs an army of Minato, please, I hope you aren't serious. KCM Minato was nothing compared to Juubito, who was weaker than not full power Juudara, when Juudara was definitely weaker than Kaguya, and DMS Kakashi managed to counter, defend from, fool and hit her in 1 vs 1 instances. His feats are something of another world compared to Minato.


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2015)

Kakashi & Obito have the same exact Kamui speed. That is literally a fact.

If Kakashi's was faster, than Obito's warp speed wouldn't have _doubled _when Kakashi Kamui'd Obito at the same time Obito Kamui'd himself. If Kakashi's was faster, Obito's would have more than doubled.


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## thechickensage (Jun 14, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Kakashi fixed that problem later throughout the manga so that's not even a negative anymore.



fine



Bonly said:


> Obito sent Kakashi to boxland yet Kakashi managed to get back by using Kamui.  The only way for Kakashi to get back is for him to use Kamui on his own body aka warping himself away.



so the answer is No, he never used it on himself in combat.  he used it to escape from Kamui Land, but never incorporated it into his combat style.  The question was combat.  Obito consistently showed superior kamui, due to it being his native eye and not a transplant.  So obito could spam it constantly, use it on parts of his body, let objects pass through him, etc with split-second timings adequate for intimate taijutsu combat

whereas kakashi's use of it was always only sucking things into Kamui Land.  Suck the Juubi's head into the K-land, suck Deidara's head into K-land, suck the rocket charging at Choji into K-land.  but never integrated into his hand-to-hand combat.  The discussion was kakashi's kamui and how useful it would be vs Minato.   kakashi's kamui is WAY less useful vs an opponent like Minato.  Give him Obito's prowess, and it's a different story.  

where does the manga say that Minato's sage mode is bad?  But that doesn't make much sense, because Jiraiya's sage mode was extremely powerful, and he didn't even master it.  Minato had no frog features when he used sage mode, suggesting that he was better at balancing natural energy than jiraiya, closer to Naruto in sage skills.  

Raikiri19, yeah you can list off all the jutsus that Kakashi has...but we've spent so much more time with Kakashi than with Minato...we've never even really seen a full Minato fight.  So you can't just list off regular jutsus that people do and say "why can't person X do these?"  Also, there are differences in fighting styles.  Kakashi's relies heavily on elemental jutsus, sure...but that's just how he fights.  Shinobis of their level can most likely perform many of these jutsus.  Look at ANBU, they use high level jutsus all the time, and they are presented as soldiers, not as geniuses at a higher level than the others (like Minato and Kakashi are)

you say he fended off kakuzu and hidan without his mangekyo...well yeah so would Minato without FTG.  Minato and Kakashi are best looked at as equals.  

I forgot to give kakashi the first gate, so that was a good point.  That would help counter sage mode. 

and I will give you that kakashi is kage level with his mangekyo sharingan.  

lol and yes I've read the manga.  There is a Bro-ish culture here at the Naruto Forums Battledome...that's probably why they segregated you here...you're like the Uchiha, all contentious and angry..."did you even read the manga" is like "bro, do you even lift?"     It's just a discussion, lol


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## Mercurial (Jun 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Kakashi & Obito have the same exact Kamui speed. That is literally a fact.
> 
> If Kakashi's was faster, than Obito's warp speed wouldn't have _doubled _when Kakashi Kamui'd Obito at the same time Obito Kamui'd himself. If Kakashi's was faster, Obito's would have more than doubled.



That was just Madara's guess. And it's not like he precisely went to check the thing to the millisecond. Especially when this doesn't match up with other feats. As Kakashi warping a giant mass like the Gedo Mazo's arm in the meantime that the Kuchiyose no Jutsu acted to insta-summon the beast to Madara, or warping Naruto's Rasengan in the meantime that Obito activated and used the Kamui phasing; we know that Kamui phasing is far faster than Kamui self teleporting, who is also slower than Obito's normal touch and warp Kamui. So with all the speed feats we saw, how could Kakashi's long range Kamui be just as fast as self teleporting Kamui? That doesn't make sense. Because it's just Madara's rough reasoning on the fly, he couldn't actually measure double Kamui's speed. Or just Kishimoto doesn't give a darn, but I prefere to chose a version that makes more sense hopefully.


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## Mercurial (Jun 14, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> fine
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He did. If he can teleport, he logically can. He just can't spam that shit all around.



Again, that's because they have different powers, again. Kakashi (if he is not DMS Kakashi) can't phase. Obito (if he is not DMS Obito) can't long range warp things.

Like this.


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## Icegaze (Jun 14, 2015)

^ would kakashi self wrapping actually help him in battle?


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## Mercurial (Jun 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ^ would kakashi self wrapping actually help him in battle?



Kamui teleporting it's hella fast and can't be sensed. Kakashi could teleport behind/above the enemy to kill him with Raikiri, or to easily warp him away with Kamui. He could even go to the other dimension, focus and accumulate his chakra, then teleport in the real world ready to spam Kamui or to use giant space-time barriers. I think it can be a very good tactical apply of Kamui. He can't spam like Obito, he would never have his quantity, but his quality is definitely high.


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## Bonly (Jun 14, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> so the answer is No, he never used it on himself in combat.  he used it to escape from Kamui Land,



>Gets shown Kakashi using while fighting Obito aka in combat
>Says it wasn't used in combat 

Okay.



> but never incorporated it into his combat style.  The question was combat.



It doesn't matter that he never incorporated it into his fighting style, that doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability to use it in a certain way. 



> Are you saying that he can now use kamui exactly like obito while fighting?  He never did, as i recall...



Well since he lost his Sharingan I would say no, as of now he can't use it like Obito. As for before, if he wanted to then he might have, well never know. 




> those examples are still ranged kamui use...not personal kamui use.



>Gets shown Kakashi using it on himself
>Still stays it wasn't a personal Kamui use

Okay.



> but never integrated into his hand-to-hand combat.



"It doesn't matter that he never incorporated it into his fighting style, that doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability to use it in a certain way. ".



> The discussion was kakashi's kamui and how useful it would be vs Minato.   kakashi's kamui is WAY less useful vs an opponent like Minato.  Give him Obito's prowess, and it's a different story.



That's neat and dandy and all but when you bring out misleading info then Imma just point it out.



> where does the manga say that Minato's sage mode is bad?



I didn't say anything bout SM, but nothing says Minato's Sage Mode is bad, all that is said is that he's not good at using Senjutsu or something of that nature.



> lol and yes I've read the manga.  There is a Bro-ish culture here at the Naruto Forums Battledome...that's probably why they segregated you here...you're like the Uchiha, all contentious and angry..."did you even read the manga" is like "bro, do you even lift?"



No it's not like "bro, do you even lift?", it's an actual curious question as it's mind boggling to see someone say " Kamui never actually amounted to much when used by kakashi." if they actually did read the manga.


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## Icegaze (Jun 14, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kamui teleporting it's hella fast and can't be sensed. Kakashi could teleport behind/above the enemy to kill him with Raikiri, or to easily warp him away with Kamui. He could even go to the other dimension, focus and accumulate his chakra, then teleport in the real world ready to spam Kamui or to use giant space-time barriers. I think it can be a very good tactical apply of Kamui. He can't spam like Obito, he would never have his quantity, but his quality is definitely high.



sorry I meant in this battle

not in battle generally 

you are right he can use it in such manner. however in this battle? would be fairly pointless


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## Mercurial (Jun 14, 2015)

I'll just throw this here. Minato about his Sage Mode.


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## Mercurial (Jun 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sorry I meant in this battle
> 
> not in battle generally
> 
> you are right he can use it in such manner. however in this battle? would be fairly pointless



Yeah I agree. Not completely pointless, it could be useful for a suprise attack, but mostly he would have to use other tactics yes.


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## thechickensage (Jun 14, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Stuff said by bonly



Haha, you replied to my inaccurate, sloppily worded post before i could edit it.  Too fast!

My point was that Obito's style of kamui (warping self in and out of K-land) would be *extremely useful *vs Minato.  

And that Kakashi's kamui wouldn't be as useful vs Minato.  Kakashi *mostly* uses it to teleport flying objects away, or to try to teleport a body part or explosion away.


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## Rocky (Jun 14, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> So with all the speed feats we saw, how could Kakashi's long range Kamui be just as fast as self teleporting Kamui?



You answered your own question.



> Or just Kishimoto doesn't give a darn



...but it does make sense that both eyes would warp things at the same speed.

It may not line up perfectly by feats, but Kamui is one of the more plot heavy jutsu. Remember how touch Kamui was supposed to be seen as a serious threat to Minato? Remember how Obito literally warped himself away before Naruto's _chakra arm_ could move a foot? Remeber how Obito _warped into Onoki's Jinton_, grabbed Sasuke, and warped out before anyone saw him?

So yeah, it isn't like Obito's eye has piss poor feats. The plot just makes the jutsu go faster or slower depending on what needs to happen. That applies to Kakashi too. That's why he couldn't warp Obito away before Madara cut off Minato's arm and _kicked it across the battlefield._ 

I'd rather not go against Madara's statement here just because of inconsistent feats.


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## Icegaze (Jun 14, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Yeah I agree. Not completely pointless, it could be useful for a suprise attack, but mostly he would have to use other tactics yes.



explain how it would be useful. since once he appears he will be sensed and minato only need let go of a kunai to avoid his attack regardless of where its coming from 

how would it be combined with other attacks. not like he can use clone diversion while doing that. or send his clone via kamui. that would take 4 uses of kamui just for that to work. or 3 rather

a lot of time wasted for something minato can easily counter by simply letting go of a kunai

minato got better reactions and he is a sensor. to me makes it too difficult for kakashi to land a hit


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## thechickensage (Jun 14, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> I'll just throw this here. Minato about his Sage Mode.



Ah, thanks for finding that!  Minato is always so down on himself, ahaha, that's his personality.  But since he doesn't really use it in combat, I'm fine taking talking about battles with him that don't use it.

But seriously, he doesn't adopt any frog features when he becomes a sage.  You can say that's bc Kishi didn't want to draw him ugly, but to me that means that he is better than jiraiya at sage mode.

So assuming that Minato won't use sage mode, I still think that FTG + rasengan is superior to Kakashi's kamui + elemental jutsus.

You have to respect both Minato and Kakashi as equal or near-equal geniuses.  There is no evidence either way for one to be slightly faster (as far as I know), and both have incredible reputations in combat as damage-dealers, finishers, and strategists.

Using the "Out of 100 fights to the death, Kakashi/Minato would win XXXXX", what would you put the odds.   I like using that format rather than who would win in a single fight because OF COURSE both shinobis are incredible...a fight between them would be on the razor's edge, a single mis-step and either one of them is wasted.

I would put the numbers for Minato (FTG + rasengan + fuinjutsu/summons) vs Kakashi (kamui + elemental jutsus) as
At the low end: Minato 65 wins, Kakashi 35 wins 
At the high end: Minato 60 wins, Kakashi 40 wins

I can't go as far as to say 55/45...i think the jutsus themselves (as in...forget the hype surrounded each of them) should favor FTG


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## Bonly (Jun 14, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Haha, you replied to my inaccurate, sloppily worded post before i could edit it.  Too fast!
> 
> My point was that Obito's style of kamui (warping self in and out of K-land) would be *extremely useful *vs Minato.
> 
> And that Kakashi's kamui wouldn't be as useful vs Minato.  Kakashi *mostly* uses it to teleport flying objects away, or to try to teleport a body part or explosion away.



I get that point, my point is not to downplay Kamui by saying he can't do something with it when he's shown the ability to do it.


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## Mercurial (Jun 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> explain how it would be useful. since once he appears he will be sensed and minato only need let go of a kunai to avoid his attack regardless of where its coming from
> 
> how would it be combined with other attacks. not like he can use clone diversion while doing that. or send his clone via kamui. that would take 4 uses of kamui just for that to work. or 3 rather
> 
> ...



Kamui teleporting can't be sensed, you can sense Obito or Kakashi only once they are attacking you, and Minato's sensing it's not a passive skill. Anyway you're right since if Minato doesn't see Kakashi anymore he would logically try to sense his chakra to find his position. But if Kakashi leaves a clone hidden while he teleports in the Kamui dimension he could pull off something. I agree on the rest.

Minato hasn't better reactions that Kakashi. Kakashi is canonically shown to react and move at the very least on par with Minato (Minato moved a little more further than him... but that's KCM Minato not alive Minato; and they reacted to Zetsu's sudden threat exactly in the same moment, and it wasn't a combo since they obviosly didn't preempt what would have happened) (1), but seemed even better than Yondaime, if we account that here (2) Minato is hit two times (in between his sliced arm is also kicked away) without being able to react and Hiraishin away, but Kakashi, even if he could absolutely not be prepared for what happened and was clearly surprised, could activate and execute Kamui in a millisecond, warping away Minato's Rasengan countered by Madara (3), and that Kakashi, even in an exhausted state, and even if he couldn' physically react nor use Kamui, could perceive and mentally react to Juudara's speed rushing to him from the back (while Minato couldn't, if he could have he would have activated Hiraishin to teleport away) (4).


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## Mercurial (Jun 14, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Ah, thanks for finding that!  Minato is always so down on himself, ahaha, that's his personality.  But since he doesn't really use it in combat, I'm fine taking talking about battles with him that don't use it.
> 
> But seriously, he doesn't adopt any frog features when he becomes a sage.  You can say that's bc Kishi didn't want to draw him ugly, but to me that means that he is better than jiraiya at sage mode.
> 
> ...



And I can agree with that, just saying that if anything could make Minato have more chances than Kakashi well that won't be Minato's Sage Mode usage, definitely not. 

I think DMS Kakashi >>> ... >>> KCM/BM Minato >> War Arc 1MS Kakashi > Minato > Shippuden Kakashi.


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## thechickensage (Jun 14, 2015)

Using Minato's ultra-embarrassing performance vs Madara isn't fair (imo) bc they were using their bodies as if they were disposable because they were already dead.  You don't know if Kakashi wouldn't have suffered the same fate if he had attempted the same rather suicidal moves.  And (i hope that) an alive Minato would have approached the fight differently.

They were attacking Madara and failed yes, but they were also risking more than they would in real life for the sake of obtaining information about Madara's abilities and to protect the living.

and yeah, DMS kakashi...would just sort of wipe the floor with...most of the naruto universe

We still disagree about 1 MS war-arc kakashi vs minato in 1v1 combat.  I just don't see how Kakashi's MS even really matters vs FTG *when you have people of equal speed and intelligence*.  And as for teleporting himself around, Kakashi hasn't shown that he can do it quickly, in time for even regular combat.  



SO this leads to another question:
_*What kills/wins that Kakashi has gotten are actually attributable to his MS?*_  Ignore Obito because that's a special case of MS vs MS.  Most of them seem to not successfully use his MS offensively.  It seems like more of a support jutsu in the manga.  

One problem is that in a manga meant for kids, you can't have fire jutsus actually hit people because their skin would melt away,  you can't have kakashi kamui people's heads off (which is what he would do), and you cant have a rasengan leave flesh-craters  in what was formerly a person's chest.  and you can't have tenten (who would be a serious badass in real life) always hitting and exploding and stabbing people.


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## Kai (Jun 14, 2015)

Kakashi can make the timing split second close with his mastery of Kamui, but Hiraishin is simply the faster jutsu when paired with Minato's reflexes. There's also the issue of cost, and what Kakashi has to pay for is quite steeper than what Minato can casually afford.

Yondi high difficulty.


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## Icegaze (Jun 14, 2015)

> Raikiri19 said:
> 
> 
> > Kamui teleporting can't be sensed, you can sense Obito or Kakashi only once they are attacking you, and Minato's sensing it's not a passive skill. Anyway you're right since if Minato doesn't see Kakashi anymore he would logically try to sense his chakra to find his position. But if Kakashi leaves a clone hidden while he teleports in the Kamui dimension he could pull off something. I agree on the rest.
> ...


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## StickaStick (Jun 14, 2015)

100 meter starting distance means Minato is going to be able to spread his kunai around the battlefield pretty thoroughly and in whatever strategic manner he chooses which is a huge advantage for him. Combine that with the fact that Kakashi will need to initially build up the chakra in his eye to use Kamui and I could easily see him getting blitzpwned here quickly.

If he did mange to last long enough to utilize long-range Kamui then it becomes a question of whether he could get Minato fast enough. In a straight LoS situation I kind of doubt it. He'd have to catch Minato's blindspot or somehow bait him into warping to a particular kunai/area and catch him immediately there.  

Minato mid to possibly high diff.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 14, 2015)

Multiple Shadow clones counteract Kakashis kamui perfectly. Lets say minato makes 20 shadow clones, then kakashi is screwed. Kakashi isn't an idiot, he's not gonna fire off random kamui shots in the hope that he coincidently hits the real minato. Nope, he would never waste the chakra doing such a thing. Meanwhile Minatos clones can all freely use FTG. Not to mention each of minatos clones replicate the original minatos kunais, so minato can literally flood the battlefield with over 100 kunai. Not that minato needs to resort to spreading kunai against an opponent like kakashi, the shadow clones alone discourage kakashi from using kamui at all, because he wont know which minato is the real one.

Meanwhile kakashi doesnt have any technique that can wipe out minatos clones, nor would he even be able to catch them when they can all teleport instantly. Kakashi also wont dare try to counter minatos numbers with his own clones, he cannot afford to waste the chakra. Especially when he's the type whose scared of using jist a single clone in battles. Honestly the thought of this matchup is quite ridiculous, i cant imagine kakashi lasting very long. Multiple minatos coming from multiple different directions via shunshin/ftg. He'd get gang banged. Dont think anyone has mentioned Toads yet, not sure how kakashi reacts to food cart destroyer or battles giant toads while trying to deal with minato simultaneously.

  @the guys who keeps saying kakashis physical reflexes/reactions are above above kinaros and almost ewual to kcm minato, please stop, its embarrassing.nthe whole black zetsu lunge thing is in no way an indicator that kakashi rivals minatos speed (even though minato was ahead anyway). I bet kishi wasn't even thinking such a thing when he drew that, it was just a mere lunge, to which ey both stopped and pulled back once zetsu reattatched himself to obito. Also kakashi reacting to minatos rasengan is nonsense. First of all, minato had no kunai in the vicinity to teleport to, not to mention kakashi still got hit. He has the sharingan so he can forsee things faster than minato, however reflexes are far inferior. Minatos base nerve transmissions are on par with raikages lightning chakra mode. So unless you anyone thinks kakashis reflexes are on par with raiakge, then this discussion is over. Side note - kcm doesnt increase reflex speed (this isnt rcm), nor did it affect minatos speed like it did naruto. Minato was already fast, he never got a soeed boost, all you have to do is read the manga to know this.


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