# Toph vs Itachi



## Red (Sep 24, 2007)

It's on a mountain side, for purposes of this fight itachi's speed is reduced to that of toph, reaction time however remains the same. we only go by what itachi has done so far.

neither knows of the abilities of each other.

Edit: amerretsu is not to be used in this fight. my reason being





> Edit:I'm going to edit my first post to not include amarretsu,we don't it's power we don't know the conditions needed and we don't know it's limits. It was preformed off screen and everything we make for or against it is pure speculation


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## Marsala (Sep 24, 2007)

Toph should win. Itachi's Sharingan hax and most genjutsu won't work on her, and with his speed reduced he is unlikely to be able to dodge her earthbending.


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## Ippy (Sep 25, 2007)

Itachi's best bet is katons, but Toph can easily set up stone barriers to protect herself, if not create that armor of rock I vaguely remember her using once.

Toph should eventually catch him, but his agility would make it a fun time for her to accomplish it.


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## Purgatory (Sep 25, 2007)

Marsala said:


> Toph should win. Itachi's Sharingan hax and most genjutsu won't work on her, and with his speed reduced he is unlikely to be able to dodge her earthbending.



Can't Itachi still  use Tsukuyomi, regardless if she's blind?


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## Pintsize (Sep 25, 2007)

She used rock armor when training Aang. Considering she taught it to him, I would think it's safe to say she knows how to use it.


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## Demon Shuriken Gaurdian (Sep 25, 2007)

Itachi. Too easy.


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## Ham_Sup (Sep 25, 2007)

Corrupt Vergil said:


> Can't Itachi still  use Tsukuyomi, regardless if she's blind?



Asuma and Kurenai weren't affected by Tsukiyomi when Itachi first debuted it, so Toph should be immune to all forms of genjutsu that affects sight.

Toph takes this match, unless Sharingan hax allows Itachi to use genjutsu that affects the other senses...

Toph wins 9/10


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## Red (Sep 25, 2007)

Corrupt Vergil said:


> Can't Itachi still  use Tsukuyomi, regardless if she's blind?


which one is that the genjustsu that kakashi got stuck in or the fire one?

If it's the genjutsu it wont work because it requires eye contact, and toph is blind.

If it's the fire one it may work but we don't know how hot it is and it's been used once off screen. I hope we get to see it before the series ends.


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## Ippy (Sep 25, 2007)

Amaterasu should be able to easily break through any barriers Toph puts up, but since it drains a great deal of his chakra, and since Toph is likely not going to be 2cm behind it, he probably wouldn't use such a jutsu just to get past her defenses.


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## earthshine (Sep 25, 2007)

for one, itachi's fire attacks are on a whole other level from any firebending toph has ever come up against, and even with his speed reduced, itachi still has superhuman strength and constitution.



to be honest, I can see itachi taking this with some shadow clones and a bit of finnese.


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## Ippy (Sep 25, 2007)

Toph's proven herself more than capable of dealing with multiple opponents, with varying methods of attack, at once in her intro episode.

Not to mention, katons in the Narutoverse are notoriously lukewarm at best.  Sandaime's Karyuu Endan on Nidaime comes to mind.


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## earthshine (Sep 25, 2007)

Haterade said:


> Toph's proven herself more than capable of dealing with multiple opponents, with varying methods of attack, at once in her intro episode.
> 
> Not to mention, katons in the Narutoverse are notoriously lukewarm at best.  Sandaime's Karyuu Endan on Nidaime comes to mind.





no firebender in avatarverse has ever been able to make a giant fireball of death that scars the landscape and makes craters.

and that was 30% itachi.



and nobody in avatar has superhuman strength and endurance like naruto chars do. itachi pimpsmacked sasuke clear down to the other end of a long ass hallway, without sasuke even slowing down or begining to drop before slamming the wall. remember, this was a smack, not a punch.



itachi also has sharingan to help him dodge toph's attacks, and only needs to hit her once to kill her.


toph, who cannot see, will not know what to make of one man suddenly becoming 10, or the fact that those men explode when she hits them. the explosions will also mess with her "sight" as all the vibration can cause her to lose sight of itachi.


andf, again, giant fireball of doom at 30% power. the best firebending feat we have seen has been small explosions and the like.

also, people with strength, endurance and reaction time nowhere near itachi's have taken on toph before, and done very well.


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## Red (Sep 25, 2007)

earthshine said:


> for one, itachi's fire attacks are on a whole other level from any firebending toph has ever come up against, and even with his speed reduced, itachi still has superhuman strength and constitution.
> 
> 
> 
> to be honest, I can see itachi taking this with some shadow clones and a bit of finnese.



In tophs first intro she took on4-7 top earthbenders without a scratch, in another episode she fought toe toe with 6-10 of the earth kings personal guard with out a scratch. a couple bushins won't work against her and remember bushins cost a lot of chakra, I bet itachi can't make more than 7.

Katons are weak and if worst comes to worst she can just go inside the groud to avoid it.

the only real whopper that itachi has is amaretsu, but anything we say on it would be pure speculation.


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## earthshine (Sep 25, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> In tophs first intro she took on4-7 top earthbenders without a scratch, in another episode she fought toe toe with 6-10 of the earth kings personal guard with out a scratch. a couple bushins won't work against her and remember bushins cost a lot of chakra, I bet itachi can't make more than 7.
> 
> Katons are weak and if worst comes to worst she can just go inside the groud to avoid it.
> 
> the only real whopper that itachi has is amaretsu, but anything we say on it would be pure speculation.




really?

okay, put toph against Azula, and tell me toph owns her.


azula is greatly inferior to itachi in all respects, and does not have his other powers. 

and as for the earthbending thing: tai lee took down like 15 elite earthbenders with her bare hands. she has no special powers, only skill.


if toph's feat can be copied by a person with no powers at all, and who is nowhere near the level physically itachi is, I don't see itachi having a problem.


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## Red (Sep 25, 2007)

earthshine said:


> no firebender in avatarverse has ever been able to make a giant fireball of death that scars the landscape and makes craters.
> 
> and that was 30% itachi.


 I believe that toph can evade those under ground, it has been shown that earth benders can burrow at a moments notice, how ever deeply and quickly they need to, toph isn't an exception.





> and nobody in avatar has superhuman strength and endurance like naruto chars do. itachi pimpsmacked sasuke clear down to the other end of a long ass hallway, without sasuke even slowing down or begining to drop before slamming the wall. remember, this was a smack, not a punch.


Toph breaks boulders if that isn't a strength feat I don't know what is, and you're over generalizing your point to fit on to itachi. not all Naruto characters have mad stamina, sakura,ino, shino,etc, just because one character can pull off a mad strength feat doesn't mean all of them can same goes with itachi, he does not have a strength or an endurance feat, half his fights are hit and run or genjutsu so we have no way of knowing how much punishment he can take.





> itachi also has sharingan to help him dodge toph's attacks, and only needs to hit her once to kill her.


Sharingan won't help with someone who can alter the terrain of the field, slowing him down is a matter of turning the ground to quick sand,



> toph, who cannot see, will not know what to make of one man suddenly becoming 10, or the fact that those men explode when she hits them. the explosions will also mess with her "sight" as all the vibration can cause her to lose sight of itachi.


Huge explosions? what are you refering to? that steam thing that cause no damage? or the flock of crows that bursts out? those are powerless and only stall opponents at best.

The explosions will not mess with her "sight" when fighting the fire nations ship she could sense and aim with accuracy to hit even in the air, I doubt any of the puffs bushins make would disorient her. 



> andf, again, giant fireball of doom at 30% power. the best firebending feat we have seen has been small explosions and the like.


Again what stops her from evading it under ground? sharingan isn't byakugan.



> also, people with strength, endurance and reaction time nowhere near itachi's have taken on toph before, and done very well.


Lol who has defeated toph? your strength and endurance points are speculations and reaction time can easily be rectified by sinking itachi up to his neck in quick sand.

this fight is more even than you think.


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## Red (Sep 25, 2007)

earthshine said:


> really?
> 
> okay, put toph against Azula, and tell me toph owns her.
> 
> ...


 And that proves what? all you're doing is power scaling with disregard for the circumstances. Itachi is not fighting azula. Itachi has only shown genjustu and katons, all your reaction time points can all be attributed to illusions not actual speed.



> and as for the earthbending thing: tai lee took down like 15 elite earthbenders with her bare hands. she has no special powers, only skill.


she can paralyze you and keep you from even moving. with only one delicate touch, itachi can't do that therefore he can't be compared to tai lee now, apples and oranges.



> if toph's feat can be copied by a person with no powers at all, and who is nowhere near the level physically itachi is, I don't see itachi having a problem.



Which feat is that? making fissures? You can't earthbend without earthbending so I wonder who can replicate that feat, if your talking about beating fifteen guys then you grossly under estimate tai lee's skill. The fiht is not between itachi and ty lee so keep her out it.


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## earthshine (Sep 25, 2007)

> I believe that toph can evade those under ground, it has been shown that earth benders can burrow at a moments notice, how ever deeply and quickly they need to, toph isn't an exception.




if it was that easy, she would do it all the time, yet that is clearly not the case.





> Toph breaks boulders if that isn't a strength feat I don't know what is, and you're over generalizing your point to fit on to itachi. not all Naruto characters have mad stamina, sakura,ino, shino,etc just because one character can pull off a mad strength doesn't mean all of them can same goes with itachi, we does not have a strength or an endurace feat half his fights are hit and run or genjutsu so we have no way of knowing how much punishment he can take.





she breaks them using earthbending. you honestly think she can break boulders with her bare hands?

as for what you said, itachi is also a high tier narutoverse character, not just some random nin or a minor rookie. he is said to be more powerful then a guy who can revive the dead and survive being cut in half.




> Sharingan won't help with someone who can alter the terrain of the field, slowing him down is a matter of turning the ground to quick sand,



it will help him avoid any attack she sends at him. as for changing the landscape, you seem to think she can just snap her fingers and turn the whole area to quicksand or something.




> Huge explosions? what are you refering to? that steam thing that cause no damage? or the flock of crows that bursts out? those are powerless and only stall opponents at best.
> 
> The explosions will not mess with her "sight" when fighting the fire nations ship she could sense and aim with accuracy to hit even in the air, I doubt any of the puffs bushins make would disorient her.



....

so,. I am assuming you have no knowledge of the fact that itachi's KBs do not go poof, they go boom.


he uses a special variant that makes the bunshin explode when hit, instead of just poofing away.



> Lol who has defeated toph? your strength and endurance points are speculations and reaction time can easily be rectified by sinking itachi up to his neck in quick sand.
> 
> this fight is more even than you think.



by your logic, toph can beat anyone. if she did half the things you attribute to her all the time, she would be able to take on azula and her team, zuko and a whole cadre of other benders, and win easily. 


since this is not the casem something seems tyo be wrong here.


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## Ippy (Sep 25, 2007)

> he is said to be more powerful then a guy who can revive the dead and survive being cut in half.


By using his Sharingan + genjutsu... which he can't use on Toph.


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## earthshine (Sep 25, 2007)

Haterade said:


> By using his Sharingan + genjutsu... which he can't use on Toph.





actually, only his sharingan genjutsu won't work. normal genjutsu should work just fine.


genjutsu does not only work on sight, it can control all 5 senses.


he can make toph hear things that are not there, or make her feel vibrations and the like that don't exist.


toph uses her sense of hearing and touch to fight. genjutsu can mess with both of these.


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## Red (Sep 25, 2007)

earthshine said:


> if it was that easy, she would do it all the time, yet that is clearly not the case.


She does it for fun and is as natural as walking as shown when she was training aang, she poped up from the ground to jolt him, even bumi did the same he fell backwards into the ground and appeared on a poduim several meters high, sevral meters away. If you an earth bender stuff like that is easy.



> she breaks them using earthbending. you honestly think she can break boulders with her bare hands?


She taught aang how to puncture solid rock with his bare hands before he even learned earth bending. breaking a boulder into pieces without earth bending isn't a far step for her. You believe some one can be thrown half way through a hall way and stand back up like it was nothing but it's hard for you to believe that a kid can break a boulder with her bare hands?



> as for what you said, itachi is also a high tier narutoverse character, not just some random nin or a minor rookie. he is said to be more powerful then a guy who can revive the dead and survive being cut in half.


 And it's also been said that kisame's suiton moves at light speed, exaggeration and hyperboles are used frivolously in naruto, Itachi has not done anythig to be considered more powerful than hidan, neither has he shown any viable feats ,With the exception of katon.





> it will help him avoid any attack she sends at him. as for changing the landscape, you seem to think she can just snap her fingers and turn the whole area to quicksand or something.


A lower tier earth bender did just that to katarra, without any warning, it's not a stretch to say toph can't do it.






> ....
> 
> so,. I am assuming you have no knowledge of the fact that itachi's KBs do not go poof, they go boom.


Post a scan, because from the fights Ive seen it turnes to a flock of birds, I need scans before I concede that point.




> he uses a special variant that makes the bunshin explode when hit, instead of just poofing away.


 Agin I need scans to belive and also gauge the damage thats done, with out your point is invalid.



> by your logic, toph can beat anyone. if she did half the things you attribute to her all the time, she would be able to take on azula and her team, zuko and a whole cadre of other benders, and win easily.
> 
> 
> since this is not the casem something seems tyo be wrong here.


See the problem here, it's the OBD all the circumstances that restricted her from doing all those moves i.e she didn't think of it at the time, her friends may get hurt if she does an avalanche or if she uses quicksand etc. are not present here it's just her and her skills and the scenarios we put here through, you bring up a scenario I counter it with why and how she'll dodge and you do the same, thats not the case with the cartoons and the circumstances behind it.


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## Red (Sep 25, 2007)

earthshine said:


> actually, only his sharingan genjutsu won't work. normal genjutsu should work just fine.
> 
> 
> genjutsu does not only work on sight, it can control all 5 senses.
> ...



In all cases with genjustus eye contact is needed, point out where this isn't the case.


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## earthshine (Sep 25, 2007)

> She taught aang how to puncture solid rock with his bare hands before he even learned earth bending. breaking a boulder into pieces without earth bending isn't a far step for her. You believe some one can be thrown half way through a hall way and stand back up like it was nothing but it's hard for you to believe that a kid can break a boulder with her bare hands?




going by that logic, people who are much stronger then toph physically, like say one of those big earthbenders, should be able to pick up giant boulders and crush them with only thier strength, since a 12 year old who is like 3 feet tall can smash boulders with a punch.






> And it's also been said that kisame's suiton moves at light speed, exaggeration and hyperboles are used frivolously in naruto, Itachi has not done anythig to be considered more powerful than hidan, neither has he shown any viable feats ,With the exception of katon.




you are talking about one line from the databook, in which the first line(which that is) is almost always some exaggerated play on words. 


it was directly stated, more then once, by sasuke and oro himself, that itachi is stronger then oro. this is not hyperbole.



> A lower tier earth bender did just that to katarra, without any warning, it's a stretch to say toph can't do it.



he turnd parts of ground into sand. he did not clap his hands and turn the whole area into quicksand.




> Post a scan, because from the fights Ive seen it turnes to a flock of birds, I need scans before I concede that point.













enjoy.


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## Pein (Sep 25, 2007)

genjutsu can work it works on all the senses not just sight


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## earthshine (Sep 25, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> In all cases with genjustus eye contact is needed, point out where this isn't the case.




Forest of death.

rain genin put team 7 and kabuto into a genjutsu without naruto and the others ever laying eyes on them.


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## Sesshoumaru (Sep 25, 2007)

With the little information this one has gathered about Toph, this one has chosen Itachi as the winner via genjutsu and Mangekyou Sharingan.

With the knowledge that Toph is blind, that would mean that all of her other senses are enhanced to compensate for her deficiency. Genjutsu is an illusionary art designed to effect all five senses, meaning that Itachi, assuming he is a genjutsu-type by his favoritism of the trade, would use his techniques to confused her hearing and sense of smell. In fact, Itachi would be able to overload either sense, specifically her sense of hearing and use it as an advantage to strike her with Amaterasu or with one of the more stronger Katon-based attacks. Or he could use "that jutsu..."


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## Pein (Sep 25, 2007)

Itachi wont even be hit he's to fast.


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## Red (Sep 25, 2007)

earthshine said:


> going by that logic, people who are much stronger then toph physically, like say one of those big earthbenders, should be able to pick up giant boulders and crush them with only thier strength, since a 12 year old who is like 3 feet tall can smash boulders with a punch.


 Hypocrisy you believe a 12 year old can easily be flung down a 4 meter hall way and stand up without a scratch run on water and spit fire balls out his hand you question whether a kick with the same age breaks a boulder? Toph has been shown teaching a 12 year old boy how to puncture several feet of solid rock with his _fingertips _why wouldn't she be able to crush a boulder with her _bare_ hands? Dont argue from incredibility. 









> you are talking about one line from the databook, in which the first line(which that is) is almost always some exaggerated play on words.
> 
> it was directly stated, more then once, by sasuke and oro himself, that itachi is stronger then oro. this is not hyperbole.


 Just like how almost all the villains go "HAHA YOU CAN"T DEFEAT ME" then a couple pages later he's dead. unless we see proof that itachi is stronger than anybody that point can be questioned.



> he turned parts of ground into sand. _he did not clap his hands and turn the whole area into quicksand_.


 And that means he's incapable, which by extension means she's also incapable? no, it just requires greater effort, all the same the results don't change.



> enjoy.



Nice explosion, and you noticed how kakashi took a direct hit without sustaining any burns or injuries? most likely that was an explosion of water. unless you want to quench toph's thirst I see no reason why she it would effect here.

sorry to hit and run, but I'll reply any of your next posts tomorrow.


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## Red (Sep 25, 2007)

earthshine said:


> Forest of death.
> 
> rain genin put team 7 and kabuto into a genjutsu without naruto and the others ever laying eyes on them.



Because you know they couldn't have cast it on them during the earlier skirmish right?

because you know gai didn't fight itachi by avoiding eye contact so he wont  be put under an illusion.

Genjustu effects all the senses but it requires initial eye contact.


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## Red (Sep 25, 2007)

Pein said:


> Itachi wont even be hit he's to fast.



speed restriction read OP.


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## earthshine (Sep 25, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> Because you know they couldn't have cast it on them during the earlier skirmish right?
> 
> because you know gai didn't fight itachi by avoiding eye contact so he wont  be put under an illusion.
> 
> Genjustu effects all the senses but it requires initial eye contact.




kabuto was not with them when they first sqw that rain genin, and neither was naruto.


they where still caught in it.


try again


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## Pein (Sep 25, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> Because you know they couldn't have cast it on them during the earlier skirmish right?
> 
> because you know gai didn't fight itachi by avoiding eye contact so he wont  be put under an illusion.
> 
> Genjustu effects all the senses but it requires initial eye contact.



that earlier encounter with rain ninjas you do know that was a large time gap.
Genjutsu doesn't need initial eye contact.


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## mystictrunks (Sep 25, 2007)

Itachi jumps into the air. While he's boosted in the air for awhile he throws a shuriken/jutsu/whatever else he has at Toph.

Itachi wins.


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## Red (Sep 25, 2007)

earthshine said:


> kabuto was not with them when they first sqw that rain genin, and neither was naruto.
> 
> 
> they where still caught in it.
> ...






Pein said:


> that earlier encounter with rain ninjas you do know that was a large time gap.
> Genjutsu doesn't need initial eye contact.


Then explain to me why kakashi gave specific advice not look at itachi's eyes or they may be caught in the jutsu? or why chibo explained why your best bet is to attack from behind while the other is caught in a jutsu? 
explain those.


mystictrunks said:


> Itachi jumps into the air. While he's boosted in the air for awhile he throws a shuriken/jutsu/whatever else he has at Toph.
> 
> Itachi wins.


she can sense stuff from the air.


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## earthshine (Sep 25, 2007)

> Then explain to me why kakashi gave specific advice not look at itachi's eyes or they may be caught in the jutsu? or why chibo explained why your best bet is to attack from behind while the other is caught in a jutsu?
> explain those.




....christ.

because aside from normal genjutsu, itachi also has sharingan genjutsu, including tsukiyomi.


both those things you said where applying to the sharingan. I have already given proof of a genjutsu working without the eyes being needed.


please move on.


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## Banhammer (Sep 25, 2007)

Sharingan is worthless against toph, Zabuza specifies on how sharingan works, the eye hipnotizes the user, and has some great processing rate (as if that depended on the eyes and not on the brain). And he defeated the Sharingan by calling in mist.
Toph can sumon up dust storms
Sharingan just got wtfpwned
And toph can see through ground vibration, up to a point she can even tell ants a few yards away, and when someone is lying.
She raises dust storm, and then crushes itachi's head, or sinks him a mile in the ground. No escape, since she can even preict where you're steping next. As long as uchihas aren't de fato angry flyin gods, toph wins
Even if she didn't win before itachi casts genjutsu, she see's through vibrations, not sound, nor smell, nor taste (I don't even wanna know ow he dupes that one), and unless you drug someone, there is no way you can trick the sense of touch


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## Purgatory (Sep 25, 2007)

Corrupt Vergil said:


> Can't Itachi still  use Tsukuyomi, regardless if she's blind?



Shit, I meant to say Amaterasu.


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## Fuujin (Sep 25, 2007)

Very interesting matchup. I think Toph has some chance of winning since Itachi can't use genjutsu...however he's still a beast with fire jutsus, chidori, and amaterasu.

I'd say Itachi 8/10


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## Banhammer (Sep 25, 2007)

itachi can use chidori? I did not knew this
toph beats him up with or without fire jutsus
amatesaru is a non factor since we do not know anything about him


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## Fuujin (Sep 25, 2007)

TheFourthNin said:


> itachi can use chidori? I did not knew this
> toph beats him up with or without fire jutsus
> amatesaru is a non factor since we do not know anything about him


1. Yeah he kinda had sharingan on when Sasuke tried to stab him with it, plus he has the necessary speed to accomplish the thrust. He even called it by it's name, indicating he'd seen it before.
2. Fire jutsus can burn through earth...they are a factor believe me.
3. We know it works as soon as he closes and opens his eyes, affects everything reflected in the iris, and burns hot enough to burn through a firebreathing creature's intestine (if not the temperature of the sun) So yeah, we know plenty.


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## Banhammer (Sep 25, 2007)

1- That is in no way proof of itachi using chidori. Unless you intent to say Gai can use it too?
2- Where in naruto have you ever seen fire piercing earth?
3-You know nothing, as it happened off screen, don't speculate. For all we know those flames happen from sumoning a hell monkey that teleported them both away and then ate the mising piece of the stomach


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## Fuujin (Sep 25, 2007)

TheFourthNin said:


> 1- That is in no way proof of itachi using chidori. Unless you intent to say Gai can use it too?
> 2- Where in naruto have you ever seen fire piercing earth?
> 3-You know nothing, as it happened off screen, don't speculate. For all we know those flames happen from sumoning a hell monkey that teleported them both away and then ate the mising piece of the stomach


1. Problem is Gai doesn't have eyes which automatically record a jutsu and show the user how it works, especially when they see the handseals for it (I really don't know why you're debating this point and your counter has no relevance)
2. Sasuke used one against Kakashi and scarred the earth, Itachi used one against team 7 and scarred the earth, Sasuke ued one against Orochimaru which cut through a tree (tree>ground)
3. lol are you really going to deny what Kishi says about the jutsu in the databook?


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## Calm (Sep 25, 2007)

Itachi, because since she is blind he can attack from the air each time. Yeah so Toph _may_ hear Itachi russling in the bush behind her but at the same time she cant tell if its a shadow clone.


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## Banhammer (Sep 25, 2007)

unless she goes all earthquakky and destroys both him and KB, while itachi has just lost half his chakra


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## Red (Sep 25, 2007)

earthshine said:


> ....christ.
> 
> because aside from normal genjutsu, itachi also has sharingan genjutsu, including tsukiyomi.
> 
> ...



No you probably don't understand your situation here. You have presented a point which directly contradicts the manga. Jus think about what you are saying.

Normal genjustus don't require eye contact but an even more advanced justu of the same category does?




now read carefully, kakashi instructs the two not to look in his eyes _before_ he realized that it was tokoyami, that was a general instruction as to not fall under a genjustu, not just tsukiyami




This is gai saying he trained how to fight kakashi by fighting with his feet. Think about it. kakshi would never use tsukoyami on gai, even if he wanted too he didn't know that technique until after his fight with itachi. What gia trained in was a way to beat a genjutsu user and that involved not making eye contact.

Your main argument is based on speculation, and assumption. You assumed that the rain ninjas didn't put them in a genjustu by making eye contac before they realized it, you also speculate that only tsukiyami needs eye contact while all other don't. Nothing of that nature is inferred from the manga. So stop trying.


Edit:I'm going to edit my first post to not include amarretsu,we don't it's power we don't know the conditions needed and we don't know it's limits. It was preformed off screen and everything we make for or against it is pure speculation.


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## Grandmaster Kane (Sep 25, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> No you probably don't understand your situation here. You have presented a point which directly contradicts the manga. Jus think about what you are saying.
> 
> Normal genjustus don't require eye contact but an even more advanced justu of the same category does?
> 
> ...



have you noticed that everytime someone falls into tsukiyami they are looking where? ... INTO HIS EYES!


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## Lord Snow (Sep 25, 2007)

Mr. Despair you have this match to work only Toph`s favor, seeing has you took 
away Itachi`s speed advantage.

Normal Itachi would  win this because the Sharingan can predict movement. Also  since the Sharingan can see the color of chakra(Which does equal chi), Itachi should be able to predicts Toph`s earth bending by:

Watching how her chi enters the ground and causes movement
Use the Sharingan to predict her next move.


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## Banhammer (Sep 25, 2007)

I'm pretty confident tsukyomi is a dojutsu, since it clearly states that only that blasted pinkeye can counter it, and since the only spexal thing about uchihas are the eyes, tsukiomy must be an eye jutsu..
Kakashi should have just called hiden mist no jutsu and told his friends to run away while he held off kisame. then he could go all out while itachi was effectivly countered

1-and toph predicts moves as well
2-you know bending is conected to your chi, but you don't know if that's what makes it move.


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## earthshine (Sep 25, 2007)

> No you probably don't understand your situation here. You have presented a point which directly contradicts the manga. Jus think about what you are saying.
> 
> Normal genjustus don't require eye contact but an even more advanced justu of the same category does?
> 
> ...




are you dense?


he was telling them to avoid his eyes because he knows full well that sharingan can put you into powerful genjutsu with only eye contanct. both times, he just HAPPENED to be talking about somebody with sharingan. he has sharingan, he knows what it can do. his words have nothing to do with normal genjutsu, and EVERYTHING to do with SHARINGAN genjutsu.


and I have already given solid evidence of genjutsu working with no visual stimuli needed.

how this "goes against the manga" is beyond me, as it is a situation directly from said manga.


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## Banhammer (Sep 25, 2007)

yeah, but you have given no genjutsu that itachi uses that would be effective against Toph


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## earthshine (Sep 25, 2007)

TheFourthNin said:


> yeah, but you have given no genjutsu that itachi uses that would be effective against Toph





genjutsu can make you hear things as easily as it can make you see them.


how do you think itachi speaks to people in a genjutsu? or makes it so that you can feel things in one?


genjutsu affects all senses, not just one. he can make toph hear and feel things that are not there, or create the sensation of vibrations coming from a certain direction when there is in fact nothing there.



that is what genjutsu is, sensory control.


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## Banhammer (Sep 25, 2007)

oh yeah, and sounds are going to be really harsh on someone that uses ground vibrations to see. Plus, she has this vision refined to the point where she can tell ants apart, and register your heart beat, how the hell is a guy so dumb he has to keep runing from positions he got himself into, find out exactly how her skills work, devise a plan, and tune the exact unique frequence he needs to mas the one of his moovements?
This using a technique he has not shown, to mask a vibration quite impossible to know.
And FYI, Itachi so far as only used hipnosis.
Genjutsu is sensory control through an iduced illusion.
He can't controll her senses if he can't induce ilusions


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## earthshine (Sep 25, 2007)

> oh yeah, and sounds are going to be really harsh on someone that uses ground vibrations to see. Plus, she has this vision refined to the point where she can tell ants apart, and register your heart beat, how the hell is a guy so dumb he has to keep runing from positions he got himself into, find out exactly how her skills work, devise a plan, and tune the exact unique frequence he needs to mas the one of his moovements?
> This using a technique he has not shown, to mask a vibration quite impossible to know.
> And FYI, Itachi so far as only used hipnosis.
> Genjutsu is sensory control through an iduced illusion.
> ...




he also has SCs that explode when struck. correct me if I'm wrong, but I would thing explosions going off on the ground would cause quite a bit of vibration, which to toph is like being blinded.


and also, you are incorrect. the illusion IS sensory control. the sensory control is what makes the illusions. control sight to make you see things that are not there, hearing to make you hear things that are not there, and so on.


sensory control is the entire illusion


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## Wesker (Sep 25, 2007)

She feels vibrations via her sense of touch if genjutsu affects all 5 senses then he would be able to make her feel vibrations that are not there and mask vibrations he is making so if he gets her in a genjutsu it is pretty much all over.


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## Banhammer (Sep 25, 2007)

no, with sharingan he induces an illusion and all senses are bent into accepting that illsuion not the other way around, for that it would be necessary for itachi to reproduce sounds he cannot emulate, while releasing scents he does not possess, putting something in her mouth without her noticing he's right in front of her, and somehow releasing holograms of sorts, not to mention touching her without her seing him coming..
oh that and starting to send a new set of vibrations from every square inch of the terrain without her noticing
unless of course you mean that itachi has high level telepathy, then I would agree with you, but that would make alot of things in manga pointless, including sasuke training with orochimaru.
Wich for some reason I don't think he is
And fyi, explosions do not mask his vibrations, they work on difrent frequences.


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## Red (Sep 25, 2007)

Gecko4lif said:


> have you noticed that everytime someone falls into tsukiyami they are looking where? ... INTO HIS EYES!


 Yes I know.



@gent9 said:


> Mr. Despair you have this match to work only Toph`s favor, seeing has you took
> away Itachi`s speed advantage.
> 
> Normal Itachi would  win this because the Sharingan can predict movement. Also  since the Sharingan can see the color of chakra(Which does equal chi), Itachi should be able to predicts Toph`s earth bending by:
> ...



Does sharingan see chakra? well I think I addressed how the sharingan prediction can be avoided go inside the ground and attacking from underground, or she can raise dust akin to how zabuza used mist to cover his movement. but thats usless if itachi can see chakra. Last I checked sharingan is not byakugan and only byakugan can see chakra.

And no, this match is even, I just reduced speed and removed a technique we know little about. if it was in toph's favor this thread won't have past page one.


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## Banhammer (Sep 25, 2007)

it's arguable, sasuke says it can see the colour of chakra, but that does not mean it can see through objects, since kakashi got effectivly countered by hidden mist, so dust strom blocks beats this
Even if he could "see" chi, and even if there was chi to be seen, dust storm would have so much of it it would blind itachi to the javeling going at 100 mph at his head


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## Red (Sep 25, 2007)

earthshine said:


> are you dense?


 Don't insult me, this is your first and last warning.



> he was telling them to avoid his eyes because he knows full well that sharingan can put you into powerful genjutsu with only eye contanct. both times, he just HAPPENED to be talking about somebody with sharingan. he has sharingan, he knows what it can do. his words have nothing to do with normal genjutsu, and EVERYTHING to do with SHARINGAN genjutsu.


 Your words contradict themselves. A powerful genjustu can be countered without making eye contact but a weak cannot? Your logic is flawed.



> and I have already given solid evidence of genjutsu working with no visual stimuli needed.


Wait wut, a scene where anything could have happened ranging from them being kept in a genjutsu prior to the main fight without their knowledge or them making eye contact without their knowledge. Your evidence has holes you don't want to accept, and thats your only viable situation to support your claims? 


> how this "goes against the manga" is beyond me, as it is a situation directly from said manga.


Because time and time again genjutsu required eye contact in every situation except the one you mentioned, a technique requiring not looking at your opponents eyes has been devised to combat it, and you still claim that it doesn't require eye contact?

your only argument apart from the scene you gave is a contradiction in it's self. Stop trying.


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## Ham_Sup (Sep 25, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> In all cases with genjustus eye contact is needed, point out where this isn't the case.



Not all genjutsu is like that, look at Tayuya and Kin, they use sound-based genjutsu.

But from what's been seen so far, Itachi has used only Sharingan genjutsu, and since there's the speed restriction, Itachi would lose


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## Red (Sep 25, 2007)

Ham_Sup said:


> Not all genjutsu is like that, look at Tayuya and Kin, they use sound-based genjutsu.


Point taken.

here are a couple more scans where it shows that someone can resists an eye base genjutsu by training is own eye to with stand it, that clearly means that it needs eye contact.

The Tale of Kira Hitachiin
The Tale of Kira Hitachiin


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## Banhammer (Sep 25, 2007)

taghga and kin induce illusions via sound, but itachi has never done this


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## vagnard (Sep 25, 2007)

Explosive bunshins. Bye bye Toph. 

But a kunai in the head would be the job faster. You say his speed was reduced, but his reaction remained the same. With the same reaction and with his ninja accuracy intact he can't just kill Toph using a kunai.


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## Banhammer (Sep 25, 2007)

vagnard said:


> Explosive bunshins. Bye bye Toph.
> 
> But a kunai in the head would be the job faster. You say his speed was reduced, but his reaction remained the same. With the same reaction and with his ninja accuracy intact he *can't * just kill Toph using a kunai.



You're right he can't.
toph has been blocking n times the amount of projectiles and smacking n times the amount of simultaneous enemies who would present far more of a threat than a guy who'se main weapon is something she has absolute defenses against.

You are one hardcore uchihatard....


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## Shoddragon (Sep 25, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> In tophs first intro she took on4-7 top earthbenders without a scratch, in another episode she fought toe toe with 6-10 of the earth kings personal guard with out a scratch. a couple bushins won't work against her and remember bushins cost a lot of chakra, I bet itachi can't make more than 7.
> 
> Katons are weak and if worst comes to worst she can just go inside the groud to avoid it.
> 
> the only real whopper that itachi has is amaretsu, but anything we say on it would be pure speculation.




LOL. itachi wins this all too easily. 

1. genjutsu fuckes up ALL senses. It does not require eye contact.
2. itachi has regular speed, but can still shunshin over.
3. he still has insane hand seal speed and woudl be able to fire multiple katons.
4. itachi cna punch her to death.


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## Red (Sep 25, 2007)

Shoddragon said:


> 1. genjutsu fuckes up ALL senses. It does not require eye contact.
> 2. itachi has regular speed, but can still shunshin over.
> 3. he still has insane hand seal speed and woudl be able to fire multiple katons.
> 4. itachi cna punch her to death.



1.I've posted adequate reason why genjustu requires eye contact please refer to those.
2.Speed restriction means he can't I thought I made that clear.
3.Ive explain how she can avoid it. refer to those
4. because she'll just stand there and smile right?

Explosive bushins didn't even hurt kakashi what makes you think it'll effectively kill toph? and yes she can discern kage bushins using her hearing.


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## Banhammer (Sep 25, 2007)

1- itachi has shown no genjutsu that he dosen't need eye contact with, or that toph can't counter with her vibration vision (if she starts seeing things she knows something's up since she has never saw anything at all, and keep focused on her feet) 
2- I think you're mistaking shunshin with the Fourth's teleportation. Shunshin at the expense of alot more chakra, but runing that fast was cut of here, and toph could still trace it, I mean, she processes moves and predicts them in microseconds(it takes longer for the light to hit from the enemie in your eyes than the earth vibrations.
3- again, no speed
4- Oooooh, what is a souther mantis kung fu master going to against a punch?  She's dooooomed


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## Shoddragon (Sep 25, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> 1.I've posted adequate reason why genjustu requires eye contact please refer to those.
> 2.Speed restriction means he can't I thought I made that clear.
> 3.Ive explain how she can avoid it. refer to those
> 4. because she'll just stand there and smile right?
> ...



LOL you cannot discern bunshins from hearing, wtf you think, they make different sounds?


also fool, you said speed is equal, you never said he could not use shunshin, because his speed is equal, shunshin is just s small speed boost momentarily.


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## Banhammer (Sep 25, 2007)

she dosen't hear them, she feels the vibrations on the ground, and guess what, she has never lost track of the real itachi.

plus, small speed bost is not gonna cut it against someone who trains with the likes of Aang, and fights hordes of guards.
Kyubi KB are so weak they get wtfpwned by seismic wave, what could itachi have that coud even bother toph?


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## vagnard (Sep 25, 2007)

TheFourthNin said:


> You're right he can't.
> toph has been blocking n times the amount of projectiles and smacking n times the amount of simultaneous enemies who would present far more of a threat than a guy who'se main weapon is something she has absolute defenses against.
> 
> You are one hardcore uchihatard....



OP said his reaction remained the same. Ninja accuracy is way better than any guy of Avatarverse. 

Even Mai who is a watered version of an academy student can put Toph and her friends in problems. Itachi just need a kunai to wipe her ass from this world. 




Mr.Despair said:


> 4. because she'll just stand there and smile right?



Against Itachi there isn't too much she can do really. Even with his speed reduced to his level the thread states his reactions remains the same. Itachi was a expert in weapons inside the Uchiha Clan. An average ninja has way better weapon manipulation than any guy in avatarverse....and Itachi is expert with them. Kunai in the head and bye bye Toph. 



Mr.Despair said:


> Explosive bushins didn't even hurt kakashi what makes you think it'll effectively kill toph? and yes she can discern kage bushins using her hearing.



Lol. "Even Kakashi?" Kakashi is a guy who can survive this. 





Kakuzu is a guy capable to torn metal doors with a punch and stop the huge claws of a bijuu with his bare hands. And Kakashi was able to stand like nothing after that and continue the fighting. 

That's the difference of stamina between Naruto and Avatar Characters. 

And Kakashi wasn't reached by the full explosion. That's why he grab Kurenai before they could be hit by the blast.


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## uncanny_sama (Sep 26, 2007)

-______________________________________-

are you serious?


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Sep 26, 2007)

Genjutsu works on the five sense, not just one. In short, you don't need to see to be effected by genjutsu. See Kabuto during the chunin exam for ref.


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## Itachi Pwnz All (Sep 26, 2007)

Okay guys I mean this fight Itachi is at a disadvantage but, like before I mean I don't know if anyone mentioned this but, like in an episode of Naruto didn't Itachi put Naruto in a genjustu by, just pointin' at the kid I mean. Not only that the point I've seen pointed out can fuck you up big time..I mean could Itachi use sound genjustu like Tayuya but, we haven't seen him preform a feat like this but, we could assume this couldn't we?


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## Banhammer (Sep 26, 2007)

in that jutsu for all you know he could have genjutsu'ed him long before he started looking at his finger
And you don't know how that jutsu is inflicted, but it's pretty obvious that it was visually wich will not affect toph.

And genjutsu induces Hallucinations, and that bends peoples senses, not the other way around. Because that would require either itachi to be an danni moonstar level telepath, or to be god, so he could create something with weight scent touch sounds and... taste? but only one person can sense it.


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## Fuujin (Sep 26, 2007)

TheFourthNin said:


> in that jutsu for all you know he could have genjutsu'ed him long before he started looking at his finger
> And you don't know how that jutsu is inflicted, but it's pretty obvious that it was visually wich will not affect toph.
> 
> And genjutsu induces Hallucinations, and that bends peoples senses, not the other way around. Because that would require either itachi to be an danni moonstar level telepath, or to be god, so he could create something with weight scent touch sounds and... taste? but only one person can sense it.


You've got to be kidding me...

Genjutsu by definition is controlling the opponent's chakra flow (in the brain) to effectively make them sense whatever the hell you want them to sense. And Itachi can actually read a person's mind when they're in his genjutsu as shown by him causing Naruto to witness CS2 Sasuke sprouting from the side of his head when Itachi had never actually seen that version of Sasuke before.

Katons>earth bending and Itachi retains his strength and stamina so 1 punch should pretty much kill Toph.

Other than that he could also use KB, make them all jump into the air (whilst jumping himself) and switching places with them, then simply run towards her and explode after jumping into the air right in front of her (she doesn't know they'll explode lol)


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## Fuujin (Sep 26, 2007)

TheFourthNin said:


> with an ilusion induced by one of the senses
> 
> because the brain now accepts the induced illusion
> 
> ...


Do you even realise what you're saying? An illusion induced by the senses? That would mean that the genjutsu would be real.

It really doesn't work like that. It tricks the person to THINK they're sensing something that isn't there, tremors in the earth felt through touch are no exeption.

And by the definition of genjutsu Itachi can't simply make them see their worst fear, he has to emulate it completely ie. read their mind and simulate the electrical signals of the senses.

Healing factor? wtf are you talking about now? I said strength and stamina...nowhere did I mention healing.

No strength feats? lol you see that image of Kakuzu kicking Kakashi a couple of posts up? Yeah Itachi did that to Kurenai who guarded herself at the time.

And yeah she could kick up a sandstorm to kill KB...but that's about all she'll be able to kill in this fight. Sharingan CAN see through earth (as proven when Sasuke saw the mines underground in the Deidara fight).

Plus stop quoting me in that way it's really annoying.


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## Banhammer (Sep 26, 2007)

Fuujin said:


> Do you even realise what you're saying? An illusion induced by the senses? That would mean that the genjutsu would be real.


The illusion is induced through the senses, like an hipnosis, or a triger sound or scent. Itachi does not have telepathy




Fuujin said:


> It really doesn't work like that. It tricks the person to THINK they're sensing something that isn't there, tremors in the earth felt through touch are no exeption.


And how is he doing that? Hipnosis(that does not work on her?), telpathy (which he does not have), or something we know nothing about(and therefore is ruled out)



Fuujin said:


> And by the definition of genjutsu Itachi can't simply make them see their worst fear, he has to emulate it completely ie. read their mind and simulate the electrical signals of the senses.


yeah, there you are, claiming itachi is a telepath
Then why didn't he make kakashi see himself geting obito killed?
This would be why you hold no credibility



Fuujin said:


> Healing factor? wtf are you talking about now? I said strength and stamina...nowhere did I mention healing.


You said he can recover stregth and stamina while in a fight. That's one hel of a regen my friend



Fuujin said:


> No strength feats? lol you see that image of Kakuzu kicking Kakashi a couple of posts up? Yeah Itachi did that to Kurenai who guarded herself at the time.


And kakuzu is called here because?


Fuujin said:


> And yeah she could kick up a sandstorm to kill KB...but that's about all she'll be able to kill in this fight. Sharingan CAN see through earth (as proven when Sasuke saw the mines underground in the Deidara fight).


No, he can't, as prooven by Zabuza with hidden mist no jutsu


Fuujin said:


> Plus stop quoting me in that way it's really annoying.



Is this better?


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## Fuujin (Sep 26, 2007)

TheFourthNin said:


> The illusion is induced through the senses, like an hipnosis, or a triger sound or scent. Itachi does not have telepathy
> And how is he doing that? Hipnosis(that does not work on her?), telpathy (which he does not have), or something we know nothing about(and therefore is ruled out)
> 
> yeah, there you are, claiming itachi is a telepath
> ...


1. Itachi literally controls the energy of the opponent's body. Using this he could read certain signals within the brain/uncover memories etc. In this way he could simulate the tremors Toph normally feels to create something frightening/hide his true presence.
2. You're saying that just because Itachi doesn't use a feat in every fight he's ever been in that he can't? It's like saying Sandaime can't do death god technique because he only showed it once.
3. I said he RETAINS his strength and stamina. Meaning that for the purposes of this fight even if his speed is reduced to Toph's he still has much higher strength and durability, I didn't mean he regenerated it.
4. I brought Kakuzu up as a point because he punched a huge iron door off it's hinges and made Kakashi fly with a kick. Meaning Itachi making Kurenai fly with a kick shows that he has similar strength. Basically you asked for an Itachi strength feat and I showed you one.
5. Kakashi is not of Uchiha blood, his skills aren't as refined as Itachi and Sasuke's (proven when Itachi commented on Kakashi's impressive eye of insight but then dismissed his skill because he couldn't achieve the heights of the sharingan)
6. Yes that's much better thank you <3


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

I don't know what there is to discuss here. If Ty Lee and Mai (who aren't benders and certainly aren't superhuman) are worth opponents of Aang and his friends then what makes you think that Itachi with a kunai  (with superhuman reaction and accuracy that he still conserve in this fight) can't kill them?.


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## Banhammer (Sep 26, 2007)

Fuujin said:


> 1. Itachi literally controls the energy of the opponent's body.


No he dosen't, where did you get that from? With a power like that he would have rapestomped jiraya.


Fuujin said:


> Using this he could read certain signals within the brain/uncover memories etc. In this way he could simulate the tremors Toph normally feels to create something frightening/hide his true presence.


Again, where did you get that "controlling other people's chakra ability" from?
He could do what you said if he had such ability
But he dosen't



Fuujin said:


> 2. You're saying that just because Itachi doesn't use a feat in every fight he's ever been in that he can't? It's like saying Sandaime can't do death god technique because he only showed it once.


No, it really isn't. It's showing that your reasoning is wrong because itachi is not following the pattern you suggest



Fuujin said:


> 3. I said he RETAINS his strength and stamina. Meaning that for the purposes of this fight even if his speed is reduced to Toph's he still has much higher strength and durability, I didn't mean he regenerated it.


You said he regenerated it! Plus if he's retaining his chakra, that means he isn't doing anything. That dosen't help toph how?



Fuujin said:


> 4. I brought Kakuzu up as a point because he punched a huge iron door off it's hinges and made Kakashi fly with a kick. Meaning Itachi making Kurenai fly with a kick shows that he has similar strength. Basically you asked for an Itachi strength feat and I showed you one.


No it dosen't, and no you didn't. You showed a strength feat of a completly difrent character hitting a another complete difrent character using two completly difrent strengths. It's like, apples, and skateboards


Fuujin said:


> 5. Kakashi is not of Uchiha blood, his skills aren't as refined as Itachi and Sasuke's (proven when Itachi commented on Kakashi's impressive eye of insight but then dismissed his skill because he couldn't achieve the heights of the sharingan)


Kakashi is not as refined in sharingan as sasuke? Even though he's been training it for oh so much longer than sasuke, and deidara said he can use it at the same level as itachi?
I don't buy it


Fuujin said:


> 6. Yes that's much better thank you <3


You're much welcome


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## Chocochip (Sep 26, 2007)

Itachi in a second.


He instantly got behind her.




He instantly got behind again.




Fast smart.


This would kill Toph and any rock shield.


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## Nihonjin (Sep 26, 2007)

Itachi will kill her within seconds.
Genjutsu & Kunai >>> Toph

Sure, no evil Doujutsu (Eye techniques) but pointing his finger should be enough to keep er stationary and stab her to death/rip her head off.


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## Banhammer (Sep 26, 2007)

For all you know that genjutsu was cast by sharingan while naruto took the time to think he was not suposed to look at itachi
plus, giving toph visions is not likely to do anything to someone who has never seen anything in his life.
She will just forget about them and focus on her earthbending

Duststorm+rockfest=toph's victory


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## Red (Sep 26, 2007)

Shoddragon said:


> LOL you cannot discern bunshins from hearing, wtf you think, they make different sounds?
> 
> 
> also fool, you said speed is equal, you never said he could not use shunshin, because his speed is equal, shunshin is just s small speed boost momentarily.


 vibrations yes. Tophs feel for vibration is so acute she can tell your lying just from the way you tremble, she can discern friend and foe by their foot steps, she can tell an ant from a termite from the way they walk. Her hearing is sharp enough to discern bushins from Itachi. How? Itachi has a heart beat, bushins don't.

And yes shunsin is restricted, why? it allows a temporal burst of speed which goes over the speed restrictions.

And by the way don't insult me.



Mocktrust-Ignis said:


> Genjutsu works on the five sense, not just one. In short, you don't need to see to be effected by genjutsu. See Kabuto during the chunin exam for ref.


Thats why diedara trained his eye to resist genjustu right, you know since genjustu doesn't need eye contact why would he go thorugh the trouble? further more why would it work? according to your theory eye contact is not needed, _then why didn't the genjutsu work on diedie_?



vagnard said:


> OP said his reaction remained the same. Ninja accuracy is way better than any guy of Avatarverse.
> 
> Even Mai who is a watered version of an academy student can put Toph and her friends in problems. Itachi just need a kunai to wipe her ass from this world.


 When did reaction ever effect accuracy? Your drawing conclusions from a connection that isn't there.






> Against Itachi there isn't too much she can do really. Even with his speed reduced to his level the thread states his reactions remains the same. Itachi was a expert in weapons inside the Uchiha Clan. An average ninja has way better weapon manipulation than any guy in avatarverse....and Itachi is expert with them. Kunai in the head and bye bye Toph.


 Wow your argument is based on power scaling and generalizations. How fast do kunais move? No really how fucking fast do they move? Fast enough that any genin and their grand mother can dodge it. 


> Lol. "Even Kakashi?" Kakashi is a guy who can survive this.





> Kakuzu is a guy capable to torn metal doors with a punch and stop the huge claws of a bijuu with his bare hands. And Kakashi was able to stand like nothing after that and continue the fighting.


 Like I said the explosions showed no burns neither did it show any high temperature reaction from the water i.e steam and shit, so the xplosion burning her isn't viable, the only thing it has is concussive force.



> And Kakashi wasn't reached by the full explosion. That's why he grab Kurenai before they could be hit by the blast.


They were two fucking feat, unless the blast was half a foot in diameter they would have felt the effects.

And do you know bushins do? they split your power in half, itachi doesn't have unlimited stamina like naruto and his eyes already soak up enough chakra as it is. Do you also know what bushins do? when they go boom the physical stress along with the experience and mental strain too. How many booms do you think he'll pull of without tiering? in before 20.

And the blast has force but not enough force to take toph down. did you watch the fight aang had with bumi? or the final fight between him and azula? He was flung several meters in to the air and smashed against two feat of rock and he still had the strength to continue the fight. That is the stamina of a twelve year old bender in the avatarverse. 

Stop pushing the idea that toph will go down with the bushins, and itachi himslef can't spam it without tiring, th explosion will not fuck up tophs hearing, lik you claim it would. Stop trying.



			
				thegoodjae said:
			
		

> Itachi in a second.
> 
> 
> He instantly got behind her.
> ...


Speed restriction. Read the first post pls.



> Itachi will kill her within seconds.
> Genjutsu & Kunai >>> Toph
> 
> Sure, no evil Doujutsu (Eye techniques) but pointing his finger should be enough to keep er stationary and stab her to death/rip her head off.


 How would pointing a finger be enough to keep her stationary? No eye technique itachi pulls off would effect her and itachi hasn't shown any knowledge of using sound to cast genjutsu.

Have you seen the reflexes of the Avatarverse? In episode 21 the fight with fong, fong and a dozen earth bender where fling 2 ton wheels at aang at the same fucking time he dodged every one of them. In lake logia the earth benders where flinging their gloves which moved the same speed as kunia's and even sokka deflected them, in the first fight with mai katara blocked her shuriken with a slim stink and some floor boards. Only people who haven't watched avatar extensively can say their slow.

Link removed

Heres a link, watch episode 21, and the lack logai episode so you can see what I'm saying. Incidently the episode 21 shows how easily and earth bender can transfigure sand and rock.


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## vagnard (Sep 26, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> When did reaction ever effect accuracy? Your drawing conclusions from a connection that isn't there.



Lol. When I said reaction affect accuracy?. I said accuracy wasn't touched by the OP. Therefore Itachi still can hit a target that is on a blindspot like he did when he was 13 years old in the flashback. Even if their speed remains the same...he can react before Toph....his strength wasn't reduced by the thread starter...therefore he can throw a kunai with the same force and speed than ever...killing Toph easily. 



Mr.Despair said:


> Wow your argument is based on power scaling and generalizations. How fast do kunais move? No really how fucking fast do they move? Fast enough that any genin and their grand mother can dodge it.



Lol...good way to miss the point. Did you see Itachi throwing a kunai in the Uchiha flashback when he was pissed with the rest of the police?. His arm strength is enough to make the kunai so deadly to impale it in a wall cracked the whole thing. That's way faster than any weapon user has show capable to do in Avatarverse. 

Ninjas evade kunais most the time because they are way faster than regular humans. That's not the case will benders. If Itachi throws a kunai and his accuracy and arm strength remain the same he will kill Toph in an instant. Mai who is practically shit compared to a genin can make Aang and cia crap in their pants and run for their life. Add the fact Itachi can use a kunai with an explosive tag and then you have a dead Toph in seconds. 

Give Itachi just a kunai and ban every other jutsu from him and he still >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Toph. 



Mr.Despair said:


> Like I said the explosions showed no burns neither did it show any high temperature reaction from the water i.e steam and shit, so the xplosion burning her isn't viable, the only thing it has is concussive force. They were two fucking feat, unless the blast was half a foot in diameter they would have felt the effects.





Lol...no signs of burning?. Just look Kakashi's PROTECTIVE vest. And he missed most of the blast jumping away with Kurenai   You must forgot the part when Kakashi is able to stand like nothing after been kicked through solid rock by Kakuzu. You can't even compare Naruto characters's durability with Avatar characters's durability. A explosion like that is pretty much enough to kill a regular human like Toph. 



Mr.Despair said:


> And do you know bushins do? they split your power in half, itachi doesn't have unlimited stamina like naruto and his eyes already soak up enough chakra as it is. Do you also know what bushins do? when they go boom the physical stress along with the experience and mental strain too. How many booms do you think he'll pull of without tiering? in before 20.



Lol. Well you get that shitty facts?. Where it was stated that you lost half of your chakra every time you use a bunshin?. Otherwise nobody would be using them. Kakashi in Wave Arc after he was very tired was capable to do 40 kage bunshins. 

Please point me a scene of Itachi out of chakra because he was using bunshins or stop lying. You are talking about Itachi like he was a noob like Toph. Lol. 



Mr.Despair said:


> And the blast has force but not enough force to take toph down. did you watch the fight aang had with bumi? or the final fight between him and azula? He was flung several meters in to the air and smashed against two feat of rock and he still had the strength to continue the fight. That is the stamina of a twelve year old bender in the avatarverse.



Lol. I watched the whole Avatar series. You can't lie to me. During the fight between Aang and Azula. Aang nearly passed out just went Azula smashed him against the wall of Ba Sing-Se. And the force wasn't even nearly similar to regular kicks and punchs from Naruto characters that are pushed through solid rock. Aang didn't even cracked the wall with the impact of Azula's fire. And Azula could finished him right there if she send the final blow right there. 

Show me a scene of Aang surviving something like this: 




or capable to receive a punch like this:



And Toph is a little girl. She doesn't even have nearly the same durability as Aang who is pretty much just a little above a peak human. Itachi's explosive bunshin would blow the ass of any Avatar character easily. They aren't able to survive the amount of blunt damage Naruto's characters recieve every day. Deidara's bombs were able to wipe a big part of the forest but Sasuke wasn't even killed by it.

Sasuke was hit several times (and smashed against a mountain) by a more powerful version of the Kyuubi Naruto that was able to punch a massive snake of several tons like nothing. And they were able to continue the fight like nothing...and he was a genin. Compare that with Kakashi or even with a kage level ninja like Itachi. 



Mr.Despair said:


> Stop pushing the idea that toph will go down with the bushins, and itachi himslef can't spam it without tiring, th explosion will not fuck up tophs hearing, lik you claim it would. Stop trying.



Show me an scene of Itachi getting tired by using bunshins. It's not like he would need more than 1 anyway. That's enough to pwn Toph. 

In fact he doesn't need explosive kage bunshins. A kunai in her head...and that's it.


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## Red (Sep 26, 2007)

vagnard said:


> Lol. When I said reaction affect accuracy?. I said accuracy wasn't touched by the OP. Therefore Itachi still can hit a target that is on a blindspot like he did when he was 13 years old in the flashback. Even if their speed remains the same...he can react before Toph....his strength wasn't reduced by the thread starter...therefore he can throw a kunai with the same force and speed than ever...killing Toph easily.


 How strong is itachi? show some strength feats now. Or concede. Top doesn't have a blind spot, and avatarvers reaction and good enough to dodge kunias.




> Lol...good way to miss the point. Did you see Itachi throwing a kunai in the Uchiha flashback when he was pissed with the rest of the police?. His arm strength is enough to make the kunai so deadly to impale it in a wall cracked the whole thing. That's way faster than any weapon user has show capable to do in Avatarverse.


 Yes I did see that flash back and it shows how out of proportion your concept of strength is, a physically fit  human can replicate that and it in no way shows the speed of the kunai. try again.



> Ninjas evade kunais most the time because they are way faster than regular humans. That's not the case will benders. If Itachi throws a kunai and his accuracy and arm strength remain the same he will kill Toph in an instant. Mai who is practically shit compared to a genin can make Aang and cia crap in their pants and run for their life. Add the fact Itachi can use a kunai with an explosive tag and then you have a dead Toph in seconds.


 watch the cartoon series and you'll see benders have the same reaction time as standard genins. she'd dodge the kunai, watch the episode where she is introduced, or at least look at rild's sig. And your just spouting off how strong itachi is, show his strength feats or concede the point.


> Give Itachi just a kunai and ban every other jutsu from him and he still >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Toph.


 Lol no.



> Lol...no signs of burning?. Just look Kakashi's PROTECTIVE vest. And he missed most of the blast jumping away with Kurenai   You must forgot the part when Kakashi is able to stand like nothing after been kicked through solid rock by Kakuzu. You can't even compare Naruto characters's durability with Avatar characters's durability. A explosion like that is pretty much enough to kill a regular human like Toph.


 Lol at toph being a regular human. wow the vest really show signs of burning, or signs of wear and tear caused by the concussive blast, if that explosion had heat you'd see steam, which is both absent from the manga and anime version. Try agian.





> Lol. Well you get that shitty facts?. Where it was stated that you lost half of your chakra every time you use a bunshin?. Otherwise nobody would be using them. Kakashi in Wave Arc after he was very tired was capable to do 40 kage bunshins.


 Did you even read the chapter where kakshi was training naruto?

And we all know bushins distribute chakra evenly amongst the clones, if you make 20 each bushin has 1/20th of your chakra.

And yes kakashi made a lot of bushins (not 40 your pulling numbers out your ass). But how many of them exploded with chakra? non. your comparison is invalid.



> Please point me a scene of Itachi out of chakra because he was using bunshins or stop lying. You are talking about Itachi like he was a noob like Toph. Lol.


 Stop your bullshit, making 20 bushins would tire him out, on top of him using the shringan which uses chakra. constantly.

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Just like the Byakugan, the Sharingan also has one main weakness, while it is not a blind spot as the Byakugan has, this weakness could be more physically dangerous. When used for an extended period of time, in some cases, it drains the chakra of the user quite quickly.









> Lol. I watched the whole Avatar series. You can't lie to me. During the fight between Aang and Azula. Aang nearly passed out just went Azula smashed him against the wall of Ba Sing-Se.


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## Chocochip (Sep 26, 2007)

Explosive bushins. The End. They are strong enough to blow up her sheild and her together.


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## vagnard (Sep 27, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> How strong is itachi? show some strength feats now. Or concede. Top doesn't have a blind spot, and avatarvers reaction and good enough to dodge kunias.



Strong enough to pierce a wall with a kunai. That's all you need to know. I doubt Toph's head is harder than a wall...therefore she loses. Can you read?. I say Itachi was able to target things on HIS BLINDSPOT. He doesn't even need to look his target to get bullseye. Look Uchiha flashback or one the latest chapters when he destroyed 2 Naruto Kage Bunshins without even see them. 




Mr.Despair said:


> Yes I did see that flash back and it shows how out of proportion your concept of strength is, a physically fit  human can replicate that and it in no way shows the speed of the kunai. try again.



Yeah sure. A regular human can grab a kunai and pierce a wall with it like it was a bullet...lol...sure. He regular human can throw six kunais at same time and get bullseye in all the target...even in one behind a rock he couldn't even see. 




Mr.Despair said:


> watch the cartoon series and you'll see benders have the same reaction time as standard genins. she'd dodge the kunai, watch the episode where she is introduced, or at least look at rild's sig. And your just spouting off how strong itachi is, show his strength feats or concede the point.



Lol..no, they doesn't. Sasuke who isn't yet at Itachi's level had enough reaction speed to act before a blast equivalent to a nuke reach him when he was practically at ground zero from the explosion. Try again. Ninjas can react and see people can move faster than the eye can see. Toph and avatar characters never have fought against people with that level of speed..therefore they lack of that kind of reaction speed. What part of regular humans capable to manipulate elements did you miss?. 

Itachi is strong enough to pierce a wall with a kunai or send Sasuke and Kurenai flying several meters with a single kick. (and this was the same Sasuke who wasn't really THAT hurt by Kyuubi Naruto's punches (who was able to K.O a huge snake with a single punch). 



Mr.Despair said:


> Lol at toph being a regular human. wow the vest really show signs of burning, or signs of wear and tear caused by the concussive blast, if that explosion had heat you'd see steam, which is both absent from the manga and anime version. Try agian.



Lol. Try to deny anything you want. You say there wasn't signs of burn on Kakashi. I showed a PROTECTIVE vest (a suit made specially to receive impacts beyond normal) to be burned and Kakashi didn't even received the full blast. He jumped before he was caught by Kurenai. Why do you think Kakashi jumped in first place giving his  position to Itachi if the blast was a harmless one and Kurenai wouldn't suffer any damage?. 

Both Kurenai and Kakashi are way above any character of Avatar in terms of durability. Anything the could hurt them would severely hurt Toph or kill her. Stop overrating her. She is just a regular girl skilled with earth bending. A regular human can beat the shit out of her in a fist fight.  



Mr.Despair said:


> Did you even read the chapter where kakshi was training naruto?
> 
> And we all know bushins distribute chakra evenly amongst the clones, if you make 20 each bushin has 1/20th of your chakra.



Lol. Where you get the chakra is lost when the bunshin is vanished?. What takes a lot of chakra is sustain the bunshin for a very long time. Kakashi never showed himself tired using a bunshin. When the bunshins dissapear the original user regain his whole chakra. Or do you think every time Naruto uses Kage Bunshin reduces for the rest of the fight his chakra to 1/1000?. Are you an idiot?.




Mr.Despair said:


> And yes kakashi made a lot of bushins (not 40 your pulling numbers out your ass). But how many of them exploded with chakra? non. your comparison is invalid.



Lol. And you are talking about pulling things out of your ass. Where did you get that you lose the chakra you use to create the bunshin after it's destroyed?. Where did you get that there is a difference of chakra usage between a exploding kage bunshin or a bunshin cancelled automatically?. 

Stop your bullshit. When Kakashi created those all those kage bunshins against the villagers he stated he hardly had chakra to make anything beside create them. What really takes chakra is to sustain them for a very long time and use them to fight...not cancelling them or making them explode. 



Mr.Despair said:


> Stop your bullshit, making 20 bushins would tire him out, on top of him using the shringan which uses chakra. constantly.



Lol. You just dig your own tomb. Thank you for proving to me you never read Naruto before. 

First. Have you seen Itachi using 20 bunshins to make that statement?. In fact Itachi has a very long chakra pull if he can use very chakra consuming jutsus like Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi. Why the hell Itachi would need to make 20 bunshins in first place? lol. 1 Exploding Bunshin or even a kunai is enough to take down Toph. 

Second. Lol...sharingan use chakra constantly?. Are you an idiot?. Where did you get this?...oh wait....from Wave arc....and then you stopped reading the series. Sharingan only takes a lot of chakra FROM KAKASHI because it isn't his real eye. It was Uchiha Obito's eye implanted on him. Sasuke and Itachi never have suffered in the whole series chakra draining from using the sharingan. Lol In fact Itachi use the sharingan the whole time. Even when he isn't fighting so what the hell are you talking about?. We have seen Itachi without the sharingan only 2 times (in the flashback and after he used Mangakyo Sharingan 3 times: 2 Tsukiyomis and One Amaterasu). Only MS is chakra consuming (and only when he use one of the jutsus...so stop pulling bullshit out of your ass. 

Lol...Even Kakashi showed after the timeskip he could fight a whole night with his sharingan when he fought in the second bell test against Naruto and Sakura. So please...shut up....you are looking like a clown.


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## vagnard (Sep 27, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> Yeah because he didn't fly through solid rock just like kakashi, and we've only seen itachi punch someone who flew down the hall way he didn't break through it like kakshi did with hidan. What does that mean? hidan and itachi don't have the same strength so your comparison is invalid once again.



You still didn't get it right?. When I did say Itachi had the same strength than Kakuzu? (not Hidan...you haven't even read the damn manga). I'm talking about resistance. Kakashi received a kick from Kakuzu that sent him flying like a rag doll but he was fine after that. But 30% Itachi before that wasn't even overcomed by Kakashi's strength and he even stopped his punch with his bare hands.  

Itachi has enough strength to put Sasuke nearly in a K.O state. The same Sasuke who could receive Kyuubi Naruto's punches and continue fighting like nothing...a KN way stronger than a KN version capable to do this: 



Sasuke as genin was strong enough to make Naruto cross a whole river from a single punch in Valley of the End...but the same Sasuke was pwned in taijutsu by Itachi. 



Mr.Despair said:


> See the video above you for reference.
> You must be funny. Your making ridiculous comparisons. Naruto was in kuuybi form toph isn't, itachi can't punch as hard as that if so show me a scan of him doing so.



You can even realize a pattern. Lol. 

1-Kyuubi Naruto from the beginning of the series was capable to punch like that. 
2-Sasuke received several punches from a stronger version of Kyuubi Naruto and he was able to continue fighting.
3-Sasuke was a genin. He wasn't even the strongest one in taijutsu. But a few punches of Itachi pwned him like a rag doll. 

Only by correlation you can understand that any ninja as strength far above a human. When was the last time you seen a guy to be kicked so strong to be sent flying a whole corridor in real life? Never. Just like Avatar benders can't do that with taijutsu. 



Mr.Despair said:


> Sasuke is time skip and was in cs2, that again is a stupid comparison.



Lol. "Sasuke is timeskip"...It doesn't matter?. Itachi is still stronger than him admitted by Sasuke himself. 

Was Sasuke in CS2 here? 



or here?





Mr.Despair said:


> Toph has as much stamina as aang, both are twelve your old children, aang wasn't in avatar state so he didn't have superhuman ability, and he still survived. The bushins didn't have enough blast to even throw kakshi while azula's did , the bushins won't affect toph so stop pushing it.



Your IQ is lower than a monkey. What part of "Kakashi can withstand a kick that send him through several layers of solid rock" didn't you understand?. Kakashi isn't a regular human. So him not to be so damaged by Itachi's explosion isn't referent about Toph not being killed. Itachi's core of the blast didn't even touched Kakashi and Kurenai who jumped a way....and Kakashi still was hurt and his back was burned. This is the same guy who can stand without too many problems after Kakuzu's super kick. 1 Explosion and bye bye Toph.

Toph is a little regular girl. She never showed supernatural physical abilities. Stop lying and show me a proof about Toph's super resistance. 

Fire bending is weak as hell compared to Itachi's explosion that has enough power to make raise a huge wave. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDc-1LOKNkw[/YOUTUBE]

Look Azula's blue fire. It didn't even destroyed the ground. Look 1:15 smatass. Azula's fire hardly made a tiny crack on a wall. You don't need even supernatural resistance to be able to withstand attacks like that. 




Mr.Despair said:


> What are spouting about kakshi and co getting knocked through a mountain? What the fuck does it relate to whether or not toph can survive a bunshin? Regardless the exploding jutsu cannot even knock kakshi off his feet, hell the concussive blast it made was weak, Ive proven to you avatrverse can fly through solid rock and get back up, what other proof do you want that toph can survive a bushin? do you want me to write a novel for you?



Lol. You never proved that Avatar characters can go through solid rock...much less a little spoiled girl like Toph. Kakashi's superhuman resistance is to make you understand that Itachi isn't fighting against your average guy.  Itachi can hurt this guy with an explosion that didn't even touched him enterely. Only the shockwave of the blast. But still was enough to make this tough guy be hurt (look the "guuh" caption) and Kurenai's face worried about him). 

If a guy like Kakashi is hurt by Itachi's explosion then in the worst of the cases it would be pwn Toph badly. I don't know why I even discussing this with you. You are a tard. Any guy with common sense can realize that Naruto's ninjas have way more durability than Avatar "regular human durability".




Mr.Despair said:


> How many scenes has he spammed it like you say he will? And I just proved to you that toph can withstand it, stop making me repeat my self.



No. You haven't proven nothing. Lol....Toph can't withstand shit. I could bitchslap her in her ugly face if I wanted. She is a regular child JC...WITH EARTH BENDING POWERS BUT A REGULAR CHILD. Show me a scene of durability of Toph of stop spouting bullshit. 



Mr.Despair said:


> Did you not read the posts where I gave specific reason why toph would dodge it?
> 
> 
> lol at Argumentum ad nauseam.



Lol. She will evade a kunai from Itachi. A guy who was Anbu Captain at 13 and was know among the Uchiha Clan as one of the best weapon users. Lol. Don't make me laugh. This is a guy who can pwn 2 Naruto's kage bunshins using kunais without even looking them or this:

Lol...This is what 13 years old Itachi could do with kunais...





Yeah...sure...Toph will evade the kunais...just like Itachi missed the last kunai behind the rock he couldn't even see....oh wait...he didn't...bullseye.  



Itachi pwning 3 adult Uchiha Police (all of 3 had sharingan) in an instant only with taijutsu. 



Itachi throwing a kunai with such strength that was impaled on a rock wall. I doubt Toph's head is harder than a rock wall XD



What the hell will do Toph to stop a katon?. Bend it back? Lol. Unlike weakass firebending of Azula that couldn't even broke the ground Itachi's katon goes easily through solid rock = fucked up Toph. 



Itachi killing 2 kage bunshins without even looking them just with kunais. 

Stop being a tard. Toph has no chance. Do you think Toph has greater reaction than Naruto who was owned by Itachi's kunais even when Itachi was giving him the back?. Lol


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## Sōsuke Aizen (Sep 27, 2007)

itachi uses his black crows to peck her to death.


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## Nihonjin (Sep 27, 2007)

Mr.Despair said:


> How would pointing a finger be enough to keep her stationary? No eye technique itachi pulls off would effect her and itachi hasn't shown any knowledge of using sound to cast genjutsu.



I'm quite sure people have told you before.
Genjutsu isn't restricted to eye techniques.
Its also not restricted to sound techniques.

Kabuto casted a genjutsu on an entire stadium of people and put them to sleep. (No eye contact there, not sound either)

Kurenai casted a genjutsu on Itachi and her eyes were closed.(No eye contact or sound there)

Kakashi casted a genjutsu on Sakura at the beginning of the series (No eye contact there, or sound)

Itachi pointed his finger at Naruto and genjutsu'd the shit out of him. (Again, no eye contact or sound).

And you're trying to convince me Itachi won't be able to cast genjutsu on her just because his Sharingan doesn't work?
Haha, thats a good one.

Toph loses horribly.
Itachi simpyl casts a genjutsu (any type except the ones requiring eye contact) and kills her after she's completely confused.
Or if he's really lazy he could always make her crush her own head with earth bending.


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## Fuujin (Sep 27, 2007)

TheFourthNin said:


> No he dosen't, where did you get that from? With a power like that he would have rapestomped jiraya.
> 
> Again, where did you get that "controlling other people's chakra ability" from?
> He could do what you said if he had such ability
> ...


1. How about the description of genjutsu? Here.
Read the top two paragraphs and you'll understand (this is backed up by what Jiraiya said in the manga to Naruto so the source is reliable)
2. No really, if you're going to reply to my posts at least read them properly. I said he retains his stamina and strength whilst losing his vast speed advantage 
wallpaper at the moment
I did not say he doesn't use his chakra, nowhere did I say anything about chakra. He does however regenerate chakra over time since all Naruto characters do (if that is what you meant)
3. wtf I showed a similar feat which shows similar strengths.
4. a. No it's not, unless you're about to say Kakashi can supress bijuu chakra and appear in his opponent's mind
b. Time spent training in this manga means nothing. Kakashi said himself there were people in the Narutoverse younger than Naruto and stronger than himself.
c. Where did Deidara say Kakashi's was as refined as Itachi's? wtf does Deidara know about the true extents of Itachi's sharingan?


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