# Aokiji vs Doflamingo + Seats



## hungrytrash (Mar 21, 2014)

Scenario 1:

Aokiji vs Doflamingo and all four seats (assuming Law stayed faithful to Doflamingo). Vergo is also on the team. Who wins?

Location: Dressrosa
Distance: 200 m
Bloodlusted.
*
Scenario 2:

Replace Aokiji with Fujitora*


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## Goomoonryong (Mar 21, 2014)

Aokiji mid-high diff.


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## November (Mar 21, 2014)

Ice cream for everyone


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## Samehadaman (Mar 21, 2014)

So it's Doflamingo, Law, Trebol, Pica, Diamante, Vergo?

Well it's a 6 vs 1 and those guys are all pretty tough. Could push Aokiji to high difficulty but I still see him win with his large AoE moves that would land on all six at once, plus his Admiral-level endurance.


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## blueframe01 (Mar 21, 2014)

Aokiji's massive AOE screws everyone pretty quickly IMO.


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## Dellinger (Mar 21, 2014)

Bloodlusted Aokiji?

Good luck Team Mingo.


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## Vengeance (Mar 21, 2014)

They can not take him down imo, especially when he goes all out.


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## Ghost (Mar 21, 2014)

Adding garbage doesn't help Dofla at all. Aokiji takes this as easily as if it was just Dofla against him.


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## Shinthia (Mar 21, 2014)

Aokiji vs DD,Law , Vergo, Pica, Trebol,Diamonte: Aokiji wins

just because of the seat members.

If it were Luffy,Zoro,Sanji and Kidd instead of Pica,Trebol,Diamonte and Vergo then i would say Aokiji lose.


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## trance (Mar 21, 2014)

Kuzan takes this mid-high difficulty.


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## Ryuksgelus (Mar 21, 2014)

Remember when Akainu chased down all the BB Pirates. Well Make it Yami Teach and take away his original crew.

How does that go down? Oh wait I guess this is a totally unfair comparison?


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## Magician (Mar 21, 2014)

Aokiji takes this with high difficulty.


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## Rocktomato (Mar 21, 2014)

Aokiji has to cope with one of the strongest supernovas and an entire powerful crew with what is likely great co-operation, on their home turf. Pica can even control Dressrosa's stone and use it to attack Aokiji while Trafalgar tries to mountain-cut him, Tr?bol attempts to coat him with semen, Diamante turns the environment into weaponry, and Vergo's hulk-modes against him with sublime Haki all while avoiding being Parasited or cut by Dofla's strings.

So bloodlusted Kuzan upper mid diffs.


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## Magentabeard (Mar 21, 2014)

Could go either way
Fujitora definitely loses... The team will still require very high difficulty


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## Patrick (Mar 21, 2014)

Do you guys know what happens when someone fights somebody who is on a way higher level. They get one-shotted. If someone like Smoker gets fodderized in seconds by Doflamingo, how should 5 guys at or slightly above that level do against someone even quite a bit above Doflamingo. 

They'll be minor annoyances at best. I'd say Aokiji wins mid difficulty.


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## Slenderman (Mar 21, 2014)

Kuzan mid diff. The seats and Vergo get flash freezed. Doffy puts up a good fight but he can't take Kuzan. I don't know about Fuji.


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## Ryuksgelus (Mar 21, 2014)

Rocktomato said:


> Aokiji has to cope with one of the strongest supernovas and an entire powerful crew with what is likely great co-operation, on their home turf. Pica can even control Dressrosa's stone and use it to attack Aokiji while Trafalgar tries to mountain-cut him, Tr?bol attempts to coat him with semen, Diamante turns the environment into weaponry, and Vergo's hulk-modes against him with sublime Haki all while avoiding being Parasited or cut by Dofla's strings.
> 
> So bloodlusted Kuzan upper mid diffs.



What is stopping Aokiji from ice aging or flash freezing the entire battlefield the second it starts?


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## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 21, 2014)

November said:


> Ice cream for everyone



Trebol glue flavoured Ice Cream. Yuck!




Low High difficulty for Kuzan and Mid High difficulty for Fujitora.


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## Rob (Mar 21, 2014)

Aokiji is arguably one of the worst people Pica could fight, if I'm thinking correctly. 

Doesn't really matter though. 
The seats would get owned.
Dofla would put up Mid diff (Unless his weakness is known) 

Aokiji takes it 10x/10.


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## The Bloody Nine (Mar 21, 2014)

Im honestly not sure Kuzan can do it. And im fairly sure Fuji can't. 

Remeber, Law and Vergo are serious business, the kind the WG sends out Admirals for. Joker is very serious business. 

Its ridiculous to think a single top tier solos as many high tiers as he wants; there has to be a point where many high tiers overcome a single top tier. And this is probably it IMO. The team wins.


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## Lord Stark (Mar 21, 2014)

I have a really hard time believing that Aokiji can defeat 2 Shichibukai a VA who is easily Shichibukai material...and 3 pirates who would likely be candidates for the Shichibukai if they weren't working under Doffy?


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## J★J♥ (Mar 21, 2014)

Doflamingo alone is more than enough.


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## Lawliet (Mar 21, 2014)

Aokiji loses another limb.


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## Sentomaru (Mar 21, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Doflamingo alone is more than enough.


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## Shanks (Mar 21, 2014)

The battle isn't as clear cut as most people believe it to be. These guys known each others for decades and should possibly have good team work and plan. Doflamingo should have full knowledge of what Aokji is capable of. Law's room and teleportation will give everyone the best possible speedy evasion to avoid anyone from getting incapacitated by Aokji's ice right off the bath. Even if Aokiji manages to freeze anyone, they have enough people to hold him off for a while and defrost the person that got frozen.We don't know how strong the 3 seats are. Doflamingo alone should be able to do as much as Jozu at MF and giving him 5 other mid-level shichibukai level fighters as assistance will only make it more difficult for Kuzan. If Dofla can find an opportunity to incapacitate Kuzan with the help of the seats and Vergo for just 1 sec, it will be enough for Law to take his heart. 

Not saying Dofla and the boys win, but this ain't going to be an easy fight for Aokiji.


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## Lawliet (Mar 21, 2014)

Law controls anything in his room. If Aokiji freezes anyone, Law will teleport that person outside of the ice, simple as that. 

Dofla and the seats are not going to let Law die so easily.


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## Shanks (Mar 21, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> Aokiji vs DD,Law , Vergo, Pica, Trebol,Diamonte: Aokiji wins
> 
> just because of the seat members.
> 
> If it were *Luffy,Zoro,Sanji and Kidd instead *of Pica,Trebol,Diamonte and Vergo then i would say Aokiji lose.



Interesting... I agree, but I'm sure there's lots of people here disagree. Maybe make a new thread?


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## Lawliet (Mar 21, 2014)

Sanji instead? no..  He should still be out of this because nothing he can add to the fight would help except his fire and that's doubtful. 

Luffy, Zoro and Kidd? Yeah I'd take these people instead for obvious reasons.


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## Coruscation (Mar 21, 2014)

A heat based fighting style is probably still better than what a Seat adds from a functional standpoint assuming said Seat is roughly as strong as Sanji. Plausible that full body fire could help him resist freezing better than anyone else than Dofla even at this level. Flipside is that Doflamingo's top lieutenants have more experience at a high level but how much it would really matter against an Admiral is questionable. Then again we're talking minimal benefits either way.


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## hungrytrash (Mar 21, 2014)

Two thoughts:

We haven't seen what Diamante is really capable of yet. The flag fruit seemed a bit unimpressive, but my gut tells me it has applications way beyond what we expect. Ice shards aren't going to be hurting anyone in this fight if they are flappy!

Secondly, my opinion is that while several of the "five" seats may seem to lack the potential to deal any real damage to Aokiji, there are some that can, and the others still play a crucial role. It takes time for a logia to regenerate, and these guys have abilities that can keep him reforming a whole lot of the time. String slice, Law cuts, icebergs flung by Trebol, Vergo's hulk smashes, and Diamante's decent-range weapons. Pica can manipulate the whole environment in favor of the team, and I doubt freezing the rocks is going to be very deadly against Pica. Freezing the outer layer of a rock is just putting ice on its surface, and it would be easy to break out of when you can control the whole friggin' castle.


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## Lawliet (Mar 21, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> A heat based fighting style is probably still better than what a Seat adds from a functional standpoint assuming said Seat is roughly as strong as Sanji. Plausible that full body fire could help him resist freezing better than anyone else than Dofla even at this level. Flipside is that Doflamingo's top lieutenants have more experience at a high level but how much it would really matter against an Admiral is questionable. Then again we're talking minimal benefits either way.



While this might be true, the whole Sanji thing. It is still doubtful that his fire can do anything to a raged admiral named Aokiji. I'd still take people like Pica since he can control rocks. Any place has rocks in it. Trebol might be useful depending on what he shows in next chapters. Diamantee's ability can be useful as well against an admiral. Not to harm, but probably to defend against and stall. And he will show us more. 

Luffy, Zoro and Kidd can't offer anything special than the seats except overall strength, but I'd still take them just because they are stronger by a good margin.


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## Rob (Mar 21, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Doflamingo alone is more than enough.



That troll was horrible, even for your standard.


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## Shanks (Mar 21, 2014)

*@ oOLawlietOo:* Sanji can:

- Avoid getting frozen
- Defrost other people
- Strong enough to intecept ice block moves such as pheasant beak alone
- Use seawater
- use sea stone
- Kick his logia ice limbs off to buy the guys a few secs
- Taunt him
- Curse him

And don't under-estimate Sanji's strength just because of that clash with Vergo.


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## Coruscation (Mar 21, 2014)

> It is still doubtful that his fire can do anything to a raged admiral named Aokiji.



That can be said for every benefit you bring up for the Seats. "Aokiji is just so strong it doesn't matter". Even if there is always a chance that would be the case we can't selectively apply it when evaluating their abilities. If one is more beneficial then it's more beneficial. I have a difficult time seeing how controlling rocks that would just be frozen or making things... flag-y... would be more helpful than a guy who fights largely by producing an immense amount of heat. Perhaps Trebol is better since as a Logia he might be harder to distance freeze and his substance is flammable. Sanji's is nearly the perfect ability against an iceman, even Ace stalled an attack due to the favorable match-up of elements.


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## hungrytrash (Mar 21, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> "even Ace stalled an attack due to the favorable match-up of elements."



Even Ace? Ace was significantly stronger than Sanji is, and was a *fire* logia. He was producing a lot more heat than Sanji would be able to right now. Not to detract from your point that Sanji would have some utility, just thought that was worded a bit strange since Ace would be far more capable of stopping one of Aokiji's attacks than Sanji would. As a side-note, a lot of the utility Sanji gives can be given even better by Vergo (short of the heat-based utility.) Seastone, ocean water, kicking limbs off, etc...


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## Coruscation (Mar 21, 2014)

I used the word even because Ace did it alone while Sanji is in a team of 5 people including Doflamingo. Ace flat out stalled a fairly big move by himself. Sanji only needs to resist the partial strength of Aokiji's moves or defrost teammates.

I don't really see how Vergo gives those three points of utility better than Sanji. Sanji is easily as fast as Vergo if it comes to threatening with seastone or ocean water (not sure what ocean water is supposed to do though). Vergo might purely physically harder to help disperse Aokiji but Sanji's heat should make up for it since he hits a weakness. But I'd say either of them don't want to get that close in the 1st place if they can help it.


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## Lawliet (Mar 21, 2014)

Well yeah I didn't think of him defrosting his teammate, then yeah that's better. He's better than Diamante, Trebol and Vergo now, but not Pica. Pica can probably control half the field and just block every attack Aokiji sends or protects his teammates or support them by any means. So yeah, I'd take a team of Doflamingo, Luffy, Sanji, Pica and Zoro/Kidd


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## Karashi (Mar 22, 2014)

Those who voted the team would win are either troll or out of their mind. Replace Aokiji with Akainu and tell me how that turns out. For a guy that fought Akainu for 10 days and slightly lost after that to lose to Doflamingo and his trash is laughable.

Mind you, if Aokiji had the Fleet Admiral title, y'all would be baby shaking it off like it was a joke. Remembering that panel when Kuzan was standing tall while he freezes the magma that erupted from the End Point in Film Z. Gosh, Homie always play with his hands inside his pocket.

Edit: Opps almost forgot. Kuzan mid-difficulty.


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## J★J♥ (Mar 22, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> That troll was horrible, even for your standard.



Troll ?  I'm not arguing here anything. Lets wait till this arc ends and see who is a troll.


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## Shanks (Mar 22, 2014)

What was I thinking? of course Aokji solo and mid diff.


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## Kaiser (Mar 22, 2014)

He calmed down Doflamingo hands in the pockets and he is the strongest opponent here. The others won't mean much. Mid difficulty because of the time it would take to defeat them though


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## Captain Altintop (Mar 22, 2014)

DD alone can push Aokiji to mid-high diff. 

Adding Pica, Trebol, Diamante, Law and Vergo would push Aokiji to very-high diff.


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## Ryuksgelus (Mar 22, 2014)

Captain Altintop said:


> *DD alone can push Aokiji to mid-high diff. *
> 
> Adding Pica, Trebol, Diamante, Law and Vergo would push Aokiji to very-high diff.



No. DD cannot -_-. 

 happens followed by  again. 

The difference between Aokiji and DD is bigger than DD and M.Trio fighters. I don't know how that is debatable :/.


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## rext1 (Mar 22, 2014)

A blood-lusted Aokiji should be capable of man-handling high tiers like even a wounded Akainu was at MF.

DD + his Seats get trashed either way. I say mid to high mid diff.


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## Lord Melkor (Mar 22, 2014)

Okay, in sheer firepower and physical stats Aokji can beat them.

However, Doflamingo was able to held Jozu with his Parasite at MF, though Jozu was caught offguard. Therefore I cannot exclude a possiblity that he could to the same to offguard Aokiji, if the Seats manage to distract him.

People should not only analyze fights in terms of sheer power. Monet almost beat Luffy, for example.


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## Whimsy (Mar 22, 2014)

The seats pretty much get one shot


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## Karashi (Mar 22, 2014)

Lord Melkor said:


> Okay, in sheer firepower and physical stats Aokji can beat them.
> 
> However, Doflamingo was able to held Jozu with his Parasite at MF, though Jozu was caught offguard. Therefore I cannot exclude a possiblity that he could to the same to offguard Aokiji, if the Seats manage to distract him.
> 
> People should not only analyze fights in terms of sheer power. Monet almost beat Luffy, for example.



I know you didn't go there. Your conmparing Luffy who's always care free when it comes from the get go to someone like Kuzan? You must be kidding yourself.

Kuzan doesn't fool around acting all care free. He ain't no Luffy. If Luffy was always serious like Kuzan, he'd had fodderized Monet, Casaer, Yetti Brothers and even kicked the shit out of Vergo from the get go. That's why Goda holds him back for Sanji & Zoro to get the spot light and mostly rest of the crew.


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## Lord Melkor (Mar 22, 2014)

Karashi said:


> I know you didn't go there. Your conmparing Luffy who's always care free when it comes from the get go to someone like Kuzan? You must be kidding yourself.
> 
> Kuzan doesn't fool around acting all care free. He ain't no Luffy. If Luffy was always serious like Kuzan, he'd had fodderized Monet, Casaer, Yetti Brothers and even kicked the shit out of Vergo from the get go. That's why Goda holds him back for Sanji & Zoro to get the spot light and mostly rest of the crew.



Maybe I went too far, here, but weaker opponent can win a fight against stronger opponent if he gets an opening.  And Doflamingo with 5 solid high tiers on his side could get an opening.


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## Ancient Archtroll (Mar 22, 2014)

Why is Doflamingo so underrated?

He cuts aokijis head of with mid diff.


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## hmph (Mar 22, 2014)

I don't think Dofla could hold on to a logia even if he caught him. Aokiji could simply shed the parts of his body that are attached to the strings and reform.


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## hungrytrash (Mar 23, 2014)

Lol Aokiji isn't one-shotting Law, nor any of the seats TBH.


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## Akitō (Mar 23, 2014)

Ryuksgelus said:


> The difference between Aokiji and DD is bigger than DD and M.Trio fighters. I don't know how that is debatable :/.



How is it not? There's no way to factually tell the difference between Doflamingo and Aokiji, and there's no way to factually tell the difference between Doflamingo and the M3. All we have are a few small scenes that aren't really indicative of much.


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## Captain Altintop (Mar 23, 2014)

Aokiji would never mid diff DD, it would be mid-high at least, if not high. 

I consider DD being around Jozu's level and DD would fare way better than Jozu because he can fight at longe range, too. Jozu can't.

DD is so underrated here, it's too sad.


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## Ryuksgelus (Mar 24, 2014)

How does range help against Aokiji? Having a stronger defense is more important than that. 



Akitō said:


> How is it not? There's no way to factually tell the difference between Doflamingo and Aokiji, and there's no way to factually tell the difference between Doflamingo and the M3. All we have are a *few small scenes that aren't really indicative of much.*



Yes they are. Just people holding out on what they want to believe until they can't any longer.


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## Magician (Mar 24, 2014)

Captain Altintop said:


> Aokiji would never mid diff DD, it would be mid-high at least, if not high.
> 
> I consider DD being around Jozu's level and DD would fare way better than Jozu because he can fight at longe range, too. Jozu can't.
> 
> *DD is so underrated here, it's too sad.*



Right?

Poor DD bro.


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## Akitō (Mar 25, 2014)

Ryuksgelus said:


> Yes they are. Just people holding out on what they want to believe until they can't any longer.



No, they aren't. Or at least they aren't factually indicative of anything. They could be indicative of something depending on how you view the scenes, but that view can be debated. I don't think you'd have so many people believing the opposite if it couldn't.


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## tanman (Mar 25, 2014)

With homefield advantage, Doflamingo Pirates can push Aokiji to high difficulty. Doflamingo alone has been portrayed as someone who could give him a decent fight. The addition of his top men (who are all very specialized: Law basically having total physical control over his surroundings, Vergo having the best Haki we've seen outside of Doflamingo level characters, Pica being nigh invulnerable, Trebol being a logia that's insanely fast and accurate, and Diamante being Diamante) should give enough of an edge to _at least_ make this high difficulty.


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## Ryuksgelus (Mar 25, 2014)

@Akito

People believe what they want to believe until it's abundantly clear what the truth is. Even then the most dogmatic fans will twist and re-interpret any detail they possibly can to make the truth seem not as drastically different than what they originally concluded/wanted to believe.  



Lord Melkor said:


> Maybe I went too far, here, but weaker opponent can win a fight against stronger opponent if he gets an opening.  And Doflamingo with 5 solid high tiers on his side could get an opening.



Difficult when said opponent has massive AoE. He is deadly at all ranges and can hit them all at once and has stats to deal with whatever they throw at him. Numbers mean the least to the original Admiral Trio.



tanman said:


> With homefield advantage, Doflamingo Pirates can push Aokiji to high difficulty. Doflamingo alone has been portrayed as someone who could give him a decent fight. The addition of his top men (who are all very specialized: *Law basically having total physical control over his surroundings*, *Vergo having the best Haki we've seen outside of Doflamingo level characters, **Pica being nigh invulnerable, *Trebol being *a logia that's insanely fast and accurate*, and *Diamante being Diamante) *should give enough of an edge to _at least_ make this high difficulty.



What exactly do you imagine going down in a Joker vs. Admiral fight? I find people either don't take the time to exactly picture the fight. Or they have some anime filler/movie style bout in their head where the weaker person is doing things Oda would never show them capable of doing while the stronger person is unintentionally or purposely nerfed in their mind.  

-Law ability is actually very poor against any opponent with massive AoE. Being in his bubble means he is in their range.

-You know very well his CoA is not protecting him from an Admiral. It's supposedly high compared to people on his level just like Luffy is faster than people on his level. Specializations like these don't matter against vastly superior opponent. That "superior" skill becomes average or mediocre against higher level opponents.

-Seriously? His power is even worst than Law's against Aokiji. 

-Aokiji doesn't even need Haki to hit him. Fast and accurate? Compared to who?

-Diamante is the most useless person here. He has nothing but speed&power. Same as Jinbe, Iva, the BB Pirates, Marco, and Vista. We know how well they did against Admirals. You either have enough brute force to bother an Admiral or you don't. No middle ground with Diamante and Vergo.


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## hungrytrash (Mar 26, 2014)

I'm still looking to see more responses for scenario 2...


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## Shanks (Mar 26, 2014)

People should really stop under-estimating the seats, Law and Doflamingo. We have not seen exactly what Doflamingo is capable of, but we was hype to hells gate as being Admiral level before Punk Hazard incident. That being said, looking at all feats, hypes and portrayal, it’s only fair to place him at Jozu’s level. Jozu, while not quite on the same level as our average top tier, but definitely can definitely push a C3 to the low end of high difficulties on even grounds. Same with Doflamingo.

Law is definitely above your average high tier with his hax in his arsenal and which allowed him to buy time against both Dofla & Fujitora for many chapters. Towards the end when he deflected a metor into Fuji’s ship, which is bad-ass as hell.

Vergo, once again also above your average high tier when he tank Smoker, Sanji and Law’s assault to the face without any signs being threaten.

Pica, Trevor and Diamante, we do not know too much off, but if we scale them around Vergo’s level, they will be a force to be reckon with. None of these guys are fodders to an Admiral and can definitely help complement each other when fighting in a team.

The greatest thing about this team is that they have two people who should be capable of overcoming being frozen and helping their team mate defrost.

The more I think about it, the more I believe these guys may be able to get the job done.


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## Coruscation (Mar 27, 2014)

> I just have a hard time believing a lone Admiral can solo an entire crew, particularly the crew of a powerful Shichibukai



Funny you should say that. A lone Admiral was sent to Dress Rosa to deal with an intensely boiling situation involving not _just_ one Shichibukai and his entire crew but also another Shichibukai, a famous 400 million bounty pirate and his entire crew. If hell broke loose don't you think Fujitora was expected to be able to handle things? Sure there's Bastille and Maynard but we all know where the real manpower lies. Akainu said merely that he sent Fujitora and seemed to have complete trust in him. Admirals are monsters.


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## hungrytrash (Mar 27, 2014)

So do you think Fujitora would win against Doflamingo + seats?


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## Coruscation (Mar 27, 2014)

I'm saying it seems like Akainu might believe that. Otherwise why send Fujitora to a veritable deathtrap if things should actually turn sour, when you'd think the main reason he's there is to handle things if they do? If Doffy turned on them Fujitora would have to hope he could run away before getting killed? Doesn't really sound like what we've been presented with in the story.


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## SacredX (Mar 27, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Funny you should say that. A lone Admiral was sent to Dress Rosa to deal with an intensely boiling situation involving not _just_ one Shichibukai and his entire crew but also another Shichibukai, a famous 400 million bounty pirate and his entire crew. If hell broke loose don't you think Fujitora was expected to be able to handle things? Sure there's Bastille and Maynard but we all know where the real manpower lies. Akainu said merely that he sent Fujitora and seemed to have complete trust in him. Admirals are monsters.



I was under the assumption he had the back up of CP0, whose current power rating is unknown but is clearly nothing to joke about.  Of course there's also the bunch you mentioned as well.  

Whether they'd call for back up or deal with everything themselves is something I can't say with certainty, but either way I expect CP0 would be a pretty huge help either way.


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## Coruscation (Mar 27, 2014)

CP0 aren't under Marine jurisdiction. They answer directly to the World Nobles as we were told (meaning, Doflamingo - Doffy pulled those strings and they came running, while the Marines were completely duped about the whole thing) and the Cipher Pol branches are directly under the WG anyway, not the Marines.


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## SacredX (Mar 27, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> I'm saying it seems like Akainu might believe that. Otherwise why send Fujitora to a veritable deathtrap if things should actually turn sour, when you'd think the main reason he's there is to handle things if they do?





Coruscation said:


> CP0 aren't under Marine jurisdiction. They answer directly to the World Nobles as we were told (meaning, Doflamingo - Doffy pulled those strings and they came running, while the Marines were completely duped about the whole thing) and the Cipher Pol branches are directly under the WG anyway, not the Marines.





I mixed up some information.  Akainu not being connected to CP0 slipped my mind for reasons unknown.  Everything else sounds reasonable.


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## hungrytrash (Mar 27, 2014)

I don't think that's a valid argument to say that he wouldn't have been sent unless he were strong enough to defeat Doflamingo and his crew. Fujitora wasn't even on the island with the purpose of attacking Doflamingo. If anything he was sent to protect him. 

Him being sent wasn't Akainu's way of saying "you can defeat everyone on the island at once." It was his way of ensuring that there was enough power there to protect the citizens and government of Dressrosa. With that said, I highly believe Fujitora would be defeated by Doflamingo with his five seats backing him up.

Aokiji being a logia is half the reason he seems so challenging for Doflamingo's crew (most of their abilities can't do much against him.) Trebol's sticky fluids, for example, would actually be able to affect Fujitora. Even though the seats are below Fujitora's level, their abilities are definitely enough to be troublesome. Meanwhile, Doflamingo's and Law's are enough to be deadly.

There is a lot of coordination that could happen as well. For example, Trebol could shoot sticky stuff near Fujitora (which he dodges), but then Law teleports both the sticky stuff and fire next to Fujitora. Boom!


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## Coruscation (Mar 27, 2014)

> Fujitora wasn't even on the island with the purpose of attacking Doflamingo. If anything he was sent to protect him.



You are seriously misremembering the Dress Rosa arc's premise. The Marines, meaning Akainu, believed that Doflamingo had resigned from the Shichibukai. That he had turned traitor and was now an ordinary pirate. On top of that Luffy and Law were running around the place planning heaven knows what. Akainu got a sharp warning from Kuzan conveyed through Smoker that the situation was extremely delicate. That is exactly what Fujitora was sent to deal with. Potentially two rogue Shichis and the rejuvenated 400 million bounty pirate that caused the WG so much grief, including in that two entire crews. Everything changed only when Doflamingo's bluff was revealed and Fujitora no longer had any authority to lay a finger on the man. At that point Fujitora basically started stalling and dicking around with Doflamingo while trying to figure out how to sort things out while keeping the citizens safe. It's clear he wanted to attack him but couldn't once the resignation was revealed as fake.


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## hungrytrash (Mar 28, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> You are seriously misremembering the Dress Rosa arc's premise. The Marines, meaning Akainu, believed that Doflamingo had resigned from the Shichibukai. That he had turned traitor and was now an ordinary pirate. On top of that Luffy and Law were running around the place planning heaven knows what. Akainu got a sharp warning from Kuzan conveyed through Smoker that the situation was extremely delicate. That is exactly what Fujitora was sent to deal with. Potentially two rogue Shichis and the rejuvenated 400 million bounty pirate that caused the WG so much grief, including in that two entire crews. Everything changed only when Doflamingo's bluff was revealed and Fujitora no longer had any authority to lay a finger on the man. At that point Fujitora basically started stalling and dicking around with Doflamingo while trying to figure out how to sort things out while keeping the citizens safe. It's clear he wanted to attack him but couldn't once the resignation was revealed as fake.



Yeah, I definitely missed that if that's the case. My impression was always that Akainu was aware of it being false before he sent Fujitora. Do you have a part you could show me that clearly expresses that?


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## hungrytrash (Mar 28, 2014)

That'll do it. Scratch what I said.


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## Shanks (Mar 28, 2014)

*@ Coruscation*

I think Akainu is over-estimating Fujitora and under estimating the guys there, just as Doflamingo underestimated Law and the SHs. 

Dofla headed to Punk Hazard all by himself, should he caught up to Law and the SHs, Dofla should be steam-rolled.

In the same sense that if Fujitora have to face the M3, Law, Vergo, Dofla, the Seats all at the same time, he would not win also. Akainu obviously don't know the full extend of how Law & the M3 progressed since the time skip, surely do not know the full extent of what the seats is capable of.


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## Lawliet (Mar 28, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> *@ Coruscation*
> 
> I think Akainu is over-estimating Fujitora and under estimating the guys there, just as Doflamingo underestimated Law and the SHs.
> 
> ...



He's not overestimating Fuji and underestimating the others. Fuji can literally fuck anyone on the island. They're just lucky he's not bloodthirsty


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## Shanks (Mar 28, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> He's not overestimating Fuji and underestimating the others. Fuji can literally fuck anyone on the island. They're just lucky he's not bloodthirsty



All at once?


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## Lawliet (Mar 28, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> All at once?



Do you really want me to answer that?


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## Shanks (Mar 28, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Do you really want me to answer that?



Yep.

10'charc


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## Lawliet (Mar 28, 2014)

No he can't. Why would everyone gang up on him? This is gonna be an all out war, everyone will be fighting someone else. Whoever is facing Fuji is fucked. When Fuji is done, his next opponent is fucked too, and so on.


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## Shanks (Mar 28, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> No he can't. Why would everyone gang up on him? This is gonna be an all out war, everyone will be fighting someone else. Whoever is facing Fuji is fucked. When Fuji is done, his next opponent is fucked too, and so on.



The original point being, he was there to take care of law, SHs and Dofla pirate. Should that not change he would have to fought Law & Dofla. Should those two escape that hyperthetical battle, in order to survive, law and Dofla will no doubt round up everyone they could to defeat this 1 admiral.


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## Lawliet (Mar 28, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> The original point being, he was there to take care of law, SHs and Dofla pirate. Should that not change he would have to fought Law & Dofla. Should those two escape that hyperthetical battle, in order to survive, law and Dofla will no doubt round up everyone they could to defeat this 1 admiral.



Round up who? Law aint siding with Doflamingo even if it is his life on the line, I think this has been confirmed already. If anything Law will aid Fuji and kill Doflamingo for good. You're making up a hypothetical scenario and excluding the characters' history and and traits. That's not how you make a hypothetical fight.


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## rext1 (Mar 28, 2014)

Preface: As an Admiral I automatically powerscale Fuji's stats + abilities to MF C3!

IMHO! There exists enough of a gap between the combatants individual abilities that Fuji wins this mid-high diff!!

Its kind of crazy (and lazy) to simply stack high tier on high tier and think they are adequate for defeating a top tier! Its like lining up five box cars and driving em full speed simultaneously at a rampaging Abrams tank! All they can do is get crushed!


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## Shanks (Mar 28, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Round up who? Law aint siding with Doflamingo even if it is his life on the line, I think this has been confirmed already. If anything Law will aid Fuji and kill Doflamingo for good. You're making up a hypothetical scenario and excluding the characters' history and and traits. That's not how you make a hypothetical fight.



You keep missing the point. Akainu knows Fujitora's character and know what he's capable, but he certainly doesn't know what Doflamingo have under his arsenal (abilities, people, power, etc) and certainly do not know how much Law and the SH have progressed. Case being point, Fujitora could easily end up in the same scenario as Kizaru on Sabaody, except this time an Admiral will be facing a group of significantly stronger people and he could be in a world of trouble if that happens.


Half of the 1st part wasn't hypothetical at all. Didn't Fuji originally went after both Law and DD at green bit? Of course Law doesn't have to team up with DD, but they can certain round up their allies  and fight a common enemy whether it is together or sequentially, Fuji will still be in a world of trouble should that happen.


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## Lawliet (Mar 28, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> You keep missing the point. Akainu knows Fujitora's character and know what he's capable, but he certainly doesn't know what Doflamingo have under his arsenal (abilities, people, power, etc) and certainly do not know how much Law and the SH have progressed. Case being point, Fujitora could easily end up in the same scenario as Kizaru on Sabaody, except this time an Admiral will be facing a group of significantly stronger people and he could be in a world of trouble if that happens.
> 
> 
> Half of the 1st part wasn't hypothetical at all. Didn't Fuji originally went after both Law and DD at green bit? Of course Law doesn't have to team up with DD, but they can certain round up their allies  and fight a common enemy whether it is together or sequentially, Fuji will still be in a world of trouble should that happen.



Doflamingo and Law can't win against Fuji. Doflamingo's men are too busy with the SHs, and you can bet your money on Luffy not helping Doflamingo even if it means helping a marine admiral.


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## Shanks (Mar 28, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Doflamingo and Law can't win against Fuji. Doflamingo's men are too busy with the SHs, and you can bet your money on Luffy not helping Doflamingo even if it means helping a marine admiral.



I never said the duo can. In my previous post, I implied that they get beat ,but both should be fully capable of escaping, regrouping and re-strategize with their allies/partners etc.

Once again no one is saying Law or Luffy is helping DD. They are not helping DD, but they can indirectly ganged a common monster of a enemy who decides to go after them first.

Point being, yes if he fight them all sequentially and systematically take them out one by one, then sure he can win, but that's not Fuji's character and he is certainly at risk of not being able to complete is mission because his fire power alone isn't enough to take on everyone at Dressrosa, therefore Akainu have very much being underestimating these guys.


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## Coruscation (Mar 28, 2014)

> In the same sense that if Fujitora have to face the M3, Law, Vergo, Dofla, the Seats all at the same time, he would not win also. Akainu obviously don't know the full extend of how Law & the M3 progressed since the time skip, surely do not know the full extent of what the seats is capable of.



Last I checked this thread was not Fujitora vs everyone of note on Dress Rosa. Fujitora being sent to DR by himself when there are so many powerful people there is something to extrapolate just how powerful an Admiral is from in order to answer the topic's question, which involves a different but no doubt at least equally powerful former Admiral. Does it really make more sense to you to think that Akainu horrifically overestimated Fujitora than that Fuji is actually perfectly capable of handling multiple of these people at once should he need to and get serious about it? To send Fuji to what's basically an early grave would be a pretty irresponsible move by a Fleet Admiral who was just informed of the graveness of the situation. Even if he may not win against all of them at once Doffy and the seats are just half of that manpower. Fuji meeting his doom against roughly half of what he was evidently expected to be able to handle is awkard to say the least. Aokiji has Logia perks and is possibly overall stronger too. Thus the answer to the actual topic is that it looks favorable for him.


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## Lawliet (Mar 28, 2014)

> Last I checked this thread was not Fujitora vs everyone of note on Dress Rosa.



Thank you....


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## Shanks (Mar 28, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Last I checked this thread was not Fujitora vs everyone of note on Dress Rosa.


Last I checked, I was responding to your responses to scaredx here. That's all.



			
				scaredx  said:
			
		

> I just have a hard time believing a lone Admiral can solo an entire crew, particularly the crew of a powerful Shichibukai





			
				Corus said:
			
		

> A lone Admiral was sent to Dress Rosa to deal with an intensely boiling situation involving not just *one Shichibukai and his entire crew* but also *another Shichibukai*, a *famous 400 million bounty* pirate and his entire crew.


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## Lawliet (Mar 28, 2014)

Akainu held off a yonkou crew minus one member + crocodile on his own while being in a bad state.


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## Shanks (Mar 28, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Akainu held off a yonkou crew minus one member + crocodile on his own while being in a bad state.



Lol, you really want to go there?


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## Coruscation (Mar 28, 2014)

> Last I checked, I was responding to your responses to scaredx here. That's all.



You didn't seem to understand what the point of bringing that up was though. Whether Fujitora could actually solo all of those people is irrelevant to my argument, unless it is your opinion that he would be grotesquely outmatched and horribly destroyed if a situation actually occured. The important thing is that he was actually expected to be able to handle the kind of situation (handling many very strong people all at the same time) that the poster I responded to expressed disbelief that an Admiral could handle. Why would Akainu be outrageously wrong? He can be somewhat mistaken sure but you can only stretch it so far before he comes off as nothing but an oblivious idiot. The manga shows us time and again that handling many very very strong people at once is exactly what an Admiral _can_ do. Akainu vs. WBs, Akainu vs. BBs and now Fujitora is sent to a Dress Rosa chock full of high tier pirates. The point I'm making is that the idea that an Admiral can't do that seems to be based only in speculation and people wanting them to be unable to. Thus far the manga's indicators have been nothing else than positive.


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## Lawliet (Mar 28, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Lol, you really want to go there?



You're talking as if you know something I don't know. Or you've seen something I haven't seen. Yes I wanna go there, show me what I'm missing. you just use the same old arguments over and over, you all bring nothing new then accuse others for being stubborn or bias. God help me.


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## hungrytrash (Mar 28, 2014)

Handling a lot of people is not the same as defeating them. Plus all of the examples we have of admirals taking on a lot of high-tiers were logia admirals. The logia advantage is the only reason they were able to do so. If you took off Akainu's intangibility and put him in the same situations, he would have been in serious trouble. 

Also, most of us agree that Akainu could not have defeated Blackbeard's crew, but they ran because the cost of winning would just not have been worth it. Thus, using the fact that they ran to say that admirals would win against large groups of high-tiers isn't valid. 

Obviously a fight with Fujitora wouldn't be worth it, but that's not to say that he wouldn't be defeated in the end. Akainu didn't need Fujitora to be able to beat all of these high-tier pirates at once, he just needed him to be strong enough to make it not worth the cost of fighting him. No pirate crew is going to sacrifice most of their crew just to kill an admiral when they can run away and avoid the conflict all-together.


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## Coruscation (Mar 29, 2014)

This topic is about an Admiral who _has_ a Logia fruit taking on a lot of high tiers =/

There is no logical connection between your two sentences. Blackbeard's crew was one top tier soon to be Yonkou and his whole crew half of which are the extremely infamous and powerful former worst prisoners in the world. They still ran. Doflamingo and his Seats are nowhere close to that powerful a group. If Blackbeard risked heavy casualties a much lesser group would just get smothered. It isn't a coincidence that Oda showed Akainu taking on/intending to take on large numbers of high tiers and even more than one arguable top tiers at the same time over and over. Why do people make excuses instead of accepting what's shown and suggested? The idea that they *can't* do it is what's completely unsupported. It's basically just people who don't want to believe it even though Oda keeps hammering the point home both pre and post TS.

Why do people keep responding to something that is merely meant to illustrate a point as if it were the main argument? The argument does not hinge on Fujitora being able to take out Doffy + crew, Law and Luffy + crew. It doesn't even claim that he can. It hinges only on the fact that he was actually sent effectively alone to a situation where all these people were involved and potentially a massive security risk, in need of secure disposal so as to keep civilians safe and not trigger an even worse chain reaction. _How_ does this not prove that Admirals can take on many high tiers at once? Why would Akainu send and fully rely on someone not capable of doing exactly what would be needed if things went as badly as he feared? Your argument doesn't even make sense, it's the same as with the Blackbeards and Akainu point. If fighting Fujitora would cost them most of their crew or risk doing so even when horribly outnumbering him how does this not also prove that an even somewhat lesser group would most likely be defeated? You don't take a big risk by fighting someone you grossly outpower.


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## X18999 (Mar 29, 2014)

Well Fuji wasn't sent alone at all... he had at least 2 Vice Admirals with him.


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## Shanks (Mar 29, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> You didn't seem to understand what the point of bringing that up was though.


Typical conversation started from OPBD?s very own Corus.




Coruscation said:


> Whether Fujitora could actually solo all of those people is irrelevant to my argument, unless it is your opinion that he would be grotesquely outmatched and horribly destroyed if a situation actually occured.


But it is relevant though and whether all hell broke loose or not, it doesn?t change the fact that it was Fujitora?s mission to take care of DD, Law and the SH and therefore he will need to defeat and capture those guys and their crew in order to succeed their mission and while he?s Admiral level and a monster in his own right, sending just Fujitora to take on the current situation is nothing less of underestimating the pirates on Dressrossa.

Should all hell broke loose, which it will happen with a tone of SHs high tier allies and revolutionary  on the SHs side, Fuji would be even more outnumbered and overpowered.



Coruscation said:


> The important thing is that he was actually expected to be able to handle the kind of situation (handling many very strong people all at the same time) that the poster I responded to expressed disbelief that an Admiral could handle. Why would Akainu be outrageously wrong? He can be somewhat mistaken sure but you can only stretch it so far before he comes off as nothing but an oblivious idiot. The manga shows us time and again that handling many very very strong people at once is exactly what an Admiral _can_ do



I?m in agreement you here, mate, but in your originally post you seem to be so confident that Fuji could actually handle his mission, that is take care and capture two Shichibukai crews and SH pirate, and using that as an example in this thread, which I disagree you and that example is in fact flaw.



Coruscation said:


> Akainu vs. WBs, Akainu vs. BBs



You know very well that these two examples have a tone of flawed in them with endless arguments for and against, yet why use those so lightly? 



Coruscation said:


> and now Fujitora is sent to a Dress Rosa chock full of high tier pirates.


Which he will obviously fail his current mission, that is capture the SHs and Law, therefore further reinforcing my original point.



Coruscation said:


> The point I'm making is that the idea that an Admiral can't do that seems to be based only in speculation and people wanting them to be unable to. Thus far the manga's indicators have been nothing else than positive.



The problem here is that there are absolutely no examples shown that an Admiral is capable of defeating a group of strong pirates such as BB pirates, WB pirates or in this example DD, Laws & SH pirates simultaneously.

Sure, if we stay on topic, then Aokiji might pull it off. I?ve already stated my stand on the OP a while back, but claiming that he could do more at this point is in fact very baseless. 



oOLawlietOo said:


> Akainu held off a yonkou crew minus one member + crocodile on his own while being in a bad state.


He never_ ?held off?_ those guys.


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## Lawliet (Mar 29, 2014)

They held him off, but they couldn't beat him combined. Stop running in circles. 

And why do you keep counting Dofla + Law + the SHs and not count Bastille and the other marines over there. Plus the reinforcements coming up.  Just because Fujitora is the strongest, doesn't  mean he should take on everyone on his own.


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## Lawliet (Mar 29, 2014)

> Which he will obviously fail his current mission, that is capture the SHs and Law, therefore further reinforcing my original point.


Of course he's gonna fail. Not even three admirals combined could capture Luffy.


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## Shanks (Mar 29, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> They held him off, but they couldn't beat him combined. Stop running in circles.
> 
> And why do you keep counting Dofla + Law + the SHs and not count Bastille and the other marines over there. Plus the reinforcements coming up.  Just because Fujitora is the strongest, doesn't  mean he should take on everyone on his own.



He couldn't beat them with the help of half of MF also. No? 

I'm doing well with my post count with these short repetitive argument!!


Because corus mentioned and clearly want to exclude them to make his point.


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## trance (Mar 29, 2014)

X18999 said:


> Well Fuji wasn't sent alone at all... he had at least 2 Vice Admirals with him.



Bar Garp, none of the Vice Admirals shown have been impressive at all. Law proved himself superior to both Smoker and Vergo, yet was inferior to Doflamingo. Doflamingo casually treated two Vice Admirals as his puppets in his very first appearance. They'd be useful for beating a weak high tier/strong mid tier fighter like Franky but that's about it. They can't compare against the high end tier of fighters that are in Dressrosa.


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## hungrytrash (Mar 29, 2014)

Seems like Doflamingo is getting underestimated too much. If Fujitora were enough to single-handedly take down not only him, but also his quite-powerful three seats (at least two of which are around the level of Zoro and Burgess) AND Law (Shichibukai) AND Vergo (vice-admiral), I seriously doubt Doflamingo would go around not only threatening to kill him, but actually proceeding to attack him. He sure didn't seem to be that confident when Kaido was mentioned. Doflamingo is obviously aware when he has no chance of victory, but that was not how he responded to Fujitora whatsoever.


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## trance (Mar 29, 2014)

hungrytrash said:


> Seems like Doflamingo is getting underestimated too much. If Fujitora were enough to single-handedly take down not only him, but also his quite-powerful three seats (at least two of which are around the level of Zoro and Burgess) AND Law (Shichibukai) AND Vergo (vice-admiral), I seriously doubt Doflamingo would go around not only threatening to kill him, but actually proceeding to attack him. He sure didn't seem to be that confident when Kaido was mentioned. Doflamingo is obviously aware when he has no chance of victory, but that was not how he responded to Fujitora whatsoever.



Because Doffy hasn't shown to be overconfident and cocky with a tendency to underestimate his adversaries, amirite?


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## Coruscation (Mar 29, 2014)

> But it is relevant though



No. It's not. You're under the misconception that by arguing that Fujitora can not _defeat those pirates all at once_, you can somehow refute the _general idea that he, as an Admiral, and thus other Admirals, can take on many strong high tiers at the same time_. These are two different things and arguing against one is not arguing against the other at all, unless your argument is that Akainu/Fujitora were so outrageously far off the mark that Fujitora would actually get utterly obliterated by the very thing he was trusted to be able to handle with a shitzillion things on the line. And if you argue that you're just showing your lack of ability to view things rationally presumably due to some anti-Admiral bias.



> in your originally post you seem to be so confident that Fuji could actually handle his mission, that is take care and capture two Shichibukai crews and SH pirate, and using that as an example in this thread



I've never said that. Whether he would win or not doesn't matter. What matters is that he was expected to be able to, that this is the level of strength EXPECTED of Admirals. Please understand that I don't care for irrelevant sidetracks or refuting strawmen. I focus only on the core of the issue and what's relevant here. I've used it as an example of how the manga DOES in fact portray Admirals. It's not loose speculation that Admirals can take on groups of strong high tiers. It happens over and over again, pre or post timeskip.



> You know very well that these two examples have a tone of flawed in them with endless arguments for and against, yet why use those so lightly?



There are no flaws in them whatsoever when used as examples of Admirals being IRREFUTABLY shown to be capable of taking on many very strong people at once. Whether they would win or not is completely irrelevant. The important point is: it was made very clear that a lone Admiral was a serious force to be reckoned with in even these types of situations. There's Sengoku vs. the BB pirates too. All the specific details of these encounters don't matter here. They would matter if we were discussing the finer points of things. We are not. We are discussing the general fact that Admirals can take on many high tiers at once. This is irrefutable and you need to understand that you're not even addressing the subject being debated with this sidetracking.



> Which he will obviously fail his current mission, that is capture the SHs and Law, therefore further reinforcing my original point.



That is utterly irrelevant.



> The problem here is that there are absolutely no examples shown that an Admiral is capable of defeating a group of strong pirates such as BB pirates, WB pirates or in this example DD, Laws & SH pirates simultaneously.



*The topic is not whether Fujitora can defeat the Donquixote family, Straw Hat pirates and Law at the same time*. We are not arguing about that (or at least, I was not and I don't care to entertain this irrelevant sidetrack you've decided to harp on endlessly for some reason). How many times will I have to repeat it? =/


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## Shanks (Mar 29, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> No. It's not. You're under the misconception that by arguing that Fujitora can not defeat those pirates all at once, you can somehow refute the general idea that he, as an Admiral, and thus other Admirals, can take on many strong high tiers at the same time. These are two different things and arguing against one is not arguing against the other at all, unless your argument is that Akainu/Fujitora were so outrageously far off the mark that Fujitora would actually get utterly obliterated by the very thing he was trusted to be able to handle with a shitzillion things on the line. And if you argue that you're just showing your lack of ability to view things rationally presumably due to some anti-Admiral bias.


Actually, I think you’ve being over-protected and quite misguided by your own personally agenda, therefore failing to see what I have being addressing. I have never tried to refute the idea that ad Admiral or any top tier for that matter can take on many strong high tiers, which is also irrelevant to the topic at hand because within the mix that OP presented, there are 1 guy that is in fact a low top tier (but top tier nonetheless). And why you keep bring up this “many strong high tiers” statement over and over again and said you’re legitimately addressing this topic is beyond me.

In no way have I ever argue that Fuji will get ‘utterly obliterated’ should he faced then all at once, but I am arguing that his strength alone isn’t enough to complete the mission which I stated more than once, yet I don’t know why you are trying to put words in my mouth and continue to fail to understand what I have being addressing.




Coruscation said:


> I've never said that. Whether he would win or not doesn't matter. What matters is that he was expected to be able to, that this is the level of strength EXPECTED of Admirals. Please understand that I don't care for irrelevant sidetracks or refuting strawmen. I focus only on the core of the issue and what's relevant here. I've used it as an example of how the manga DOES in fact portray Admirals. It's not loose speculation that Admirals can take on groups of strong high tiers. It happens over and over again, pre or post timeskip.



Actually it does, because having a victory, tie or losing will more accurately help us as fans powerscale him. Just because someone is expected to something doesn’t mean they are capable of completing the task, and if the person cannot complete the expected task, it indicates that the expected strength that the task giver expects them to have was exaggerated. Jozu was expected to take on Aokiji, yet he wasn’t able to complete the mission, therefore WB’s expected strength of Jozu was over-estimated and the same is said for Akainu’s expectation of Fujitora’s strength, which is the only thing I have being arguing about from the very begining, so why you implied that this have being sidetracked is beyond me.





Coruscation said:


> There are no flaws in them whatsoever when used as examples of Admirals being IRREFUTABLY shown to be capable of taking on many very strong people at once. Whether they would win or not is completely irrelevant. The important point is: it was made very clear that a lone Admiral was a serious force to be reckoned with in even these types of situations. There's Sengoku vs. the BB pirates too. All the specific details of these encounters don't matter here. They would matter if we were discussing the finer points of things. We are not. We are discussing the general fact that Admirals can take on many high tiers at once. This is irrefutable and you need to understand that you're not even addressing the subject being debated with this sidetracking.


They are flaw in a sense that those portrayals scale the Admirals’ power too loosely. And how on earth do you expect people to understand or reply to you when you use some loose statement like “taking on many very strong people at once”. How many is many? Who would you consider to be the strongest out of the “very strong people” you stated? If we go by your two examples, BB pirates and WB commanders (minus Jozu), then 1 Admiral cannot take on “many very strong people at once”,  because those strong 2 groups of people have the combine power of two mid level top tier per group. If you go by the OP, then yeah, I agree. And I have never disagreed to this settlement ever in this thread as stated previously.




Coruscation said:


> The topic is not whether Fujitora can defeat the Donquixote family, Straw Hat pirates and Law at the same time. We are not arguing about that (or at least, I was not and I don't care to entertain this irrelevant sidetrack you've decided to harp on endlessly for some reason). How many times will I have to repeat it? =/


I know that, and I’m not debating about the topic, but your example to support your claim on the topic. Sure, I agree with your conclusion, but not how you come to determining your conclusion and scale and Admiral’s power based on loosely inconclusive portrayal.

The point is, just because he was sent on a mission to take care of Dofla, Law and SHs does not automatically portray him to be strong enough to defeat Dofla, Law, Pic, Trevor, Diamante and Vergo, But if we look at these feats whereby he was able to bring down 3 meteors simultaneously, while levitating a warship and still eat ramen, then that is where we can scale his power more accurately and could say it’s plausible that he’ll be victorious when looking at OP.


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## hungrytrash (Mar 29, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Because Doffy hasn't shown to be overconfident and cocky with a tendency to underestimate his adversaries, amirite?



Doflamingo has underestimated his enemies a lot less than most of the enemies in the story, and we have yet to see him be overconfident when it comes to his power. Every time he's been "cocky" he's been able to trash the person he's fought. As I said, there was no cockiness toward Kaido, which is precisely my point. He is not cocky when he knows he stands no chance. He had already seen Fujitora fight to an extent but was perfectly confident that he could take him.

I'm not saying he would win by himself, but with the help of Law and his seats and Vergo? Heck yeah...


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## Dellinger (Mar 29, 2014)

He knows that Fujitora can't touch him because of status.

That's the major difference between him confronting an Admiral and a Yonko.

Kaido doesn't give a darn about Doflamingo's status as a shichibukai.


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## Lmao (Mar 29, 2014)

hungrytrash said:


> As I said, there was no cockiness toward Kaido, which is precisely my point. He is not cocky when he knows he stands no chance. He had already seen Fujitora fight to an extent but was perfectly confident that he could take him.


So according to you; Doflamingo fearing a Yonko's wrath = stands no chance but Doflamingo attacking someone who can't threaten his life due to status = has a chance? How does that even make sense to you? That's like having a boxing match with Tyson where he's not allowed to hit you and you confidently attacking means anything at all but, oh boy, wouldn't anyone shit themselves at the thought of being attacked by a group of 20 amateur boxers?


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## Lawliet (Mar 29, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> He couldn't beat them with the help of half of MF also. No?
> 
> I'm doing well with my post count with these short repetitive argument!!
> 
> ...



Oda made it clear that it was WBs vs  akainu . Just like other marines can help akainu , WB's allies were helping them too. Who's being bias now


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## Lawliet (Mar 29, 2014)

> Actually it does, because having a victory, tie or losing will more accurately help us as fans powerscale him.


That's all you care about ?


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## hungrytrash (Mar 29, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> He knows that Fujitora can't touch him because of status.
> 
> That's the major difference between him confronting an Admiral and a Yonko.
> 
> Kaido doesn't give a darn about Doflamingo's status as a shichibukai.



It's funny that you say that since Fujitora probably cares about the shichibukai status less than every other admiral and had literally just finished telling Doflamingo he would destroy that system. It's still a valid point, though, I'm sure that added a bit to Doflamingo's confidence, but the context of the situation and saying things like "so I should kill you while have the chance..." force me to believe that Doflamingo believed he honestly had the resources to take down Fujitora if required. 

Threatening to kill and actually attacking an admiral are on a whole new level from just getting away with things because of your status. Doing what he did would have been plenty of reason enough for Fujitora to fight him legally. Doflamingo was hardly doing that trembling with fear, thinking "Please don't attack me back, please don't attack me back!" I don't know why you people think that a Shichibukai can just freely attack an admiral and he somehow has no right to defend himself (mostly aimed at the guy who posted after you)...


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## Shanks (Mar 29, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Oda made it clear that it was WBs vs  akainu . Just like other marines can help akainu , WB's allies were helping them too. Who's being bias now



Oda made it clear that it was Old Sick Heavily Handicapped WB vs. Akainu and WB still won.



oOLawlietOo said:


> That's all you care about ?



It's about context, mate. To be honest, I don't really know what you're intention is with these two posts and jumping in and out of this thread to pick and chose small points to reply. Either take the time to reply properly or don't reply.


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## Slenderman (Mar 29, 2014)

Whitebeard sneak attacked Akainu. If Akainu sneak attacked WB with Meigou and killed WB would you say that Akainu is stronger than WB Sabo?


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## Shanks (Mar 29, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Whitebeard sneak attacked Akainu. If Akainu sneak attacked WB with Meigou and killed WB would you say that Akainu is stronger than WB Sabo?



That blow to the head was after WB got handicapped 10xtimes over before hand already. And that won't kill WB. If you forgot what happened at MF, feel free to read my summary here:


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## monkey d ace (Mar 29, 2014)

aokigi high diff.


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## Lawliet (Mar 29, 2014)

> Oda made it clear that it was Old Sick Heavily Handicapped WB vs. Akainu and WB still won.


I said WBs but okay.


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## Shanks (Mar 29, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I said WBs but okay.



Sorry mis read. That only portray akainu to be stronger than the strongest person of that group, not the group itself.


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## Dellinger (Mar 29, 2014)

hungrytrash said:


> It's funny that you say that since Fujitora probably cares about the shichibukai status less than every other admiral and had literally just finished telling Doflamingo he would destroy that system. It's still a valid point, though, I'm sure that added a bit to Doflamingo's confidence, but the context of the situation and saying things like "so I should kill you while have the chance..." force me to believe that Doflamingo believed he honestly had the resources to take down Fujitora if required.
> 
> Threatening to kill and actually attacking an admiral are on a whole new level from just getting away with things because of your status. Doing what he did would have been plenty of reason enough for Fujitora to fight him legally. Doflamingo was hardly doing that trembling with fear, thinking "Please don't attack me back, please don't attack me back!" I don't know why you people think that a Shichibukai can just freely attack an admiral and he somehow has no right to defend himself (mostly aimed at the guy who posted after you)...



Fujitora might care less about the shichibukai but his position doesn't allow him to attack Doflamingo not matter what he did.

And that line was what Fujitora actually meant with the stuff he said to Doflamingo.That he will kill him when the right time comes.

Also don't forget that Doflamingo's relationship with the WG is much deepr than what the ther shichibukai have.


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## Slenderman (Mar 29, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> That blow to the head was after WB got handicapped 10xtimes over before hand already. And that won't kill WB. If you forgot what happened at MF, feel free to read my summary here:



How is WB going to survive his head getting blown off? He's not God. Give Akainu that chance and WB's head is gone. No matter how strong he is getting his heart melted or his whole head melted off will kill him. It's something you can't function with without it. Whether your the WSM or not.


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## Lawliet (Mar 29, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Sorry mis read. That only portray akainu to be stronger than the strongest person of that group, not the group itself.



What? You're just gonna try and downplay the admirals as much as you can. You were just replying to something I never said . I tell you what's going on and you just downplay him again. He faced them as a group by himself, and he was still kicking after.


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## Shanks (Mar 29, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> What? You're just gonna try and downplay the admirals as much as you can. You were just replying to something I never said . I tell you what's going on and you just downplay him again. He faced them as a group by himself, and he was still kicking after.



They initially faced him as group early on, not the other way around. Then things when off panel and the next time we saw akainu, he was fighting Cruiel with marines all over the place and the other guys was no where to be found. How am I down playing now? 

You next told me what's going on. You told me your interpretation of what's going on, which I disagree with.


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## Shanks (Mar 29, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> How is WB going to survive his head getting blown off? He's not God. Give Akainu that chance and WB's head is gone. No matter how strong he is getting his heart melted or his whole head melted off will kill him. It's something you can't function with without it. Whether your the WSM or not.



You think WB is that weak that his head will be blown off? When WB verse Akainu the second time, as I stated he was severely weaken already and he was in a state of mind to kamakazie akainu. Going by your definition, I can say WB should have behead Akainu with his weapon instead of using a quake punch then.


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## Slenderman (Mar 29, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> You think WB is that weak that his head will be blown off? When WB verse Akainu the second time, as I stated he was severely weaken already and he was in a state of mind to kamakazie akainu. Going by your definition, I can say WB should have behead Akainu with his weapon instead of using a quake punch then.



How did WB's head do when he attempted to dodge Meigou? Akainu ripped half of it off easily. It really doesn't matter how weakened he is. If Akainu got a free Meigou on WB's head at the beginning of the war WB is dead. Comparing a bisento slash to Meigou makes no sense. Nobody unless they have insane COA is not dying getting hit by a free Meigou. You can't tank something that takes your head off with magma. Nothing that you say proves If WB's full head took Meigou it wouldn't get blown off like half of his face. You're grasping where there's no straws to take. When Akainu used Meigou he took off half of WB's face and if WB didn't dodge his whole head would be gone. That's what happened in the manga and no amount of denial can stop that.


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## trance (Mar 29, 2014)

MarineFord was a clusterfuck of PIS, inconsistencies and outliers. By portrayal, Whitebeard was above Akainu. That's that. Whether that's by a considerable amount (like Sabo thinks) or by only a moderate amount (like Slender thinks) is where the speculation begins.


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## Shanks (Mar 29, 2014)

Yo, Slenderman, mate. Your post have being improving in both quality and quantity these days! Are you gunning for MOTM? Hehe. I'll draft a proper reply to both your posts carefully when I have some free time. HF for now.


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## Slenderman (Mar 29, 2014)

I'm just sayin that Akainu having that opportunity free shot is as unfair as WB's. And would be more lethal


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## hungrytrash (Mar 30, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Fujitora might care less about the shichibukai but his position doesn't allow him to attack Doflamingo not matter what he did.
> 
> And that line was what Fujitora actually meant with the stuff he said to Doflamingo.That he will kill him when the right time comes.
> 
> Also don't forget that Doflamingo's relationship with the WG is much deepr than what the ther shichibukai have.



If Doflamingo attacks Fujitora, Fujitora is definitely allowed to attack him back. With the logic you're using, Hancock can beat Kizaru at any time she wants because if she attacks him, he's apparently not allowed to fight because because she's a shichibukai. He just has to take her attacks until he's dead.


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## trance (Mar 30, 2014)

hungrytrash said:


> If Doflamingo attacks Fujitora, Fujitora is definitely allowed to attack him back. With the logic you're using, Hancock can beat Kizaru at any time she wants because if she attacks him, he's apparently not allowed to fight because because she's a shichibukai. He just has to take her attacks until he's dead.



I'm pretty sure that's not what he means. He's most likely referring to Doffy's Tenryubito heritage.


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## hungrytrash (Mar 30, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> I'm pretty sure that's not what he means. He's most likely referring to Doffy's Tenryubito heritage.



Whether it is because he's a Shichibukai or because of his Tenryubito heritage, my point is the same. Doflamingo can call in favors now and then, but that hardly gives him enough immunity to slap admirals in the face with no chance of them retaliating. If he attacks Fujitora, he has absolutely no assurance that Fujitora won't attack him right back. 

All I am saying, responding mainly to older posts, is that people are saying Doflamingo was cocky because he knew "Fujitora couldn't attack him back", rather than being confident because he sincerely believed that he had the resources to take Fujitora down if it came down to it. But saying he was cocky because he knew Fujitora couldn't retaliate is not true because the moment when Doflamingo initiated an attack on Fujitora, Fujitora could completely legally have attacked him right back. Doflamingo was obviously willing to fight him, and was even expecting at least a skirmish with him. He wasn't playing some immunity card saying, "haha I can kick you and you just have to sit there and take it, even though you're way stronger than me."

Now if Doflamingo was that confident with Fujitora, but was scared with Kaido, it means that he knew he actually had a chance of winning against Fujitora. If he himself had a chance of winning, add his seats, Vergo, and Law, and we have a strong likelihood of Doflamingo's team winning.


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## Magician (Mar 30, 2014)

hungrytrash said:


> Whether it is because he's a Shichibukai or because of his Tenryubito heritage, my point is the same. Doflamingo can call in favors now and then, but that hardly gives him enough immunity to slap admirals in the face with no chance of them retaliating. If he attacks Fujitora, he has absolutely no assurance that Fujitora won't attack him right back.
> 
> All I am saying, responding mainly to older posts, is that people are saying Doflamingo was cocky because he knew "Fujitora couldn't attack him back", rather than being confident because he sincerely believed that he had the resources to take Fujitora down if it came down to it. But saying he was cocky because he knew Fujitora couldn't retaliate is not true because the moment when Doflamingo initiated an attack on Fujitora, Fujitora could completely legally have attacked him right back. Doflamingo was obviously willing to fight him, and was even expecting at least a skirmish with him. He wasn't playing some immunity card saying, "haha I can kick you and you just have to sit there and take it, even though you're way stronger than me."



Good post.

Also to add to this. Back in Punk Hazard he had Aokiji breathing down his neck and still chose to go for the kill on Smoker without any hesitation and a smile on his face.

Aokiji is essentially a vagabond at this point with no affiliations so Doflamingo had no reason to believe that Aokiji wouldn't have went for the kill if he had injured his best friend.

So it backs up the idea that he attacked Fujitora out of confidence in his own abilities and the situation rather than him knowing for a fact that Fujitora wouldn't strike back.


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## Coruscation (Mar 30, 2014)

> Actually, I think you’ve being over-protected and quite misguided by your own personally agenda, therefore failing to see what I have being addressing. I have never tried to refute the idea that ad Admiral or any top tier for that matter can take on many strong high tiers, which is also irrelevant to the topic at hand because within the mix that OP presented, there are 1 guy that is in fact a low top tier (but top tier nonetheless). And why you keep bring up this “many strong high tiers” statement over and over again and said you’re legitimately addressing this topic is beyond me.
> 
> In no way have I ever argue that Fuji will get ‘utterly obliterated’ should he faced then all at once, but I am arguing that his strength alone isn’t enough to complete the mission which I stated more than once, yet I don’t know why you are trying to put words in my mouth and continue to fail to understand what I have being addressing.



Another complete non-response. It is extremely frustrating to attempt to debate with someone who is quoting things and not responding to them and refusing to listen. I guess I could point out seeing how you brought it up that not everyone agrees Doflamingo is a top tier. But also that it doesn't matter seeing how Admirals have been shown in the manga facing groups of people including one or more top tiers (that are actually more commonly agreed upon to be top-tiers than Doflamingo) before.



> WB’s expected strength of Jozu was over-estimated and the same is said for Akainu’s expectation of Fujitora’s strength, which is the only thing I have being arguing about from the very begining, so why you implied that this have being sidetracked is beyond me.



Because that only thing is utterly irrelevant. It doesn't matter in the slightest whether Fujitora can or can not beat them all at once. This would only matter if the question was whether he could do it or not, or if you think Akainu's overestimation of Fujitora is absolutely catastrophic, to where he would get obliterated should he actually have to face what he was sent there to face. But it appears you don't think that. You've been arguing on a misunderstanding from the start even though I said over and over and over why the objection is irrelevant to the point that was being made. I never once said that Fujitora could defeat Law+Luffy+SHs+Doflamingo+Seats at once, or that I believe that he could. *This is not the point of contention.* If you think you understand this, which you should have long ago, then stop this pointless arguing.



> They are flaw in a sense that those portrayals scale the Admirals’ power too loosely.



That isn't a flaw when all we NEED is a loose idea of their strength. Namely the general idea that Admirals are perfectly capable of taking on a group like the one in the OP at the same time. Everything available in the manga supports this and nothing goes against it. You even agree yourself. The "flaw" that we can't get a precise estimation is not relevant because the point has never been to attain one. You're arguing about nothing.



> And how on earth do you expect people to understand or reply to you when you use some loose statement like “taking on many very strong people at once”.



Ugh. I think it seems like other people understood perfectly fine what that means. Especially when I gave numerous examples. You are the only one who started arguing about nothing for some inexplicable reason.



> The point is, just because he was sent on a mission to take care of Dofla, Law and SHs does not automatically portray him to be strong enough to defeat Dofla, Law, Pic, Trevor, Diamante and Vergo



The topic isn't Fujitora vs. those people. And I've never said anything about "automatically". *You are arguing irrelevancies*. I'm not addressing you any further on this when you seem completely incapable of or unwilling to understand. This entire sidetrack seems like it's just another result of you looking for arguments against people who rate Admirals highly or something. I'm not entertaining that.


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## trance (Mar 30, 2014)

hungrytrash said:


> Whether it is because he's a Shichibukai or because of his Tenryubito heritage, my point is the same. Doflamingo can call in favors now and then, but that hardly gives him enough immunity to slap admirals in the face with no chance of them retaliating. If he attacks Fujitora, he has absolutely no assurance that Fujitora won't attack him right back.
> 
> All I am saying, responding mainly to older posts, is that people are saying Doflamingo was cocky because he knew "Fujitora couldn't attack him back", rather than being confident because he sincerely believed that he had the resources to take Fujitora down if it came down to it. But saying he was cocky because he knew Fujitora couldn't retaliate is not true because the moment when Doflamingo initiated an attack on Fujitora, Fujitora could completely legally have attacked him right back. Doflamingo was obviously willing to fight him, and was even expecting at least a skirmish with him. He wasn't playing some immunity card saying, "haha I can kick you and you just have to sit there and take it, even though you're way stronger than me."



IMHO, Doffy doesn't fear Fujitora or the Admirals like he fears Kaido because he hasn't personally dealt with them. He knows them by reputation of course (since they're world famous) but that's about it. Fujtora seems to be the first Admiral Doffy has personally interacted with for more than just a couple panels (Kuzan). He acknowledged his reputation for being a monster but in the same breath, he called him an "old fool". 

Apparently, he's been Kaido's business partner for several years now, so he's mostly meet the man in person. From what has been described of him, he's absolutely merciless with no moral boundries. If he feels he's been crossed or whatever, he won't hesitate to kill you. As ruthless and cold-blooded as Akainu is, even he has a small amount of moral conviction. So, in addition to his superior strength, Kaido is also a pitiless serial killer. Personally, I'd be more afraid of a serial killer with superior strength than just a person with superior strength but with moral convictions (like Fujitora has).

Just my two cents on the matter. :/


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## Shanks (Mar 30, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Another complete non-response. It is extremely frustrating to attempt to debate with someone who is quoting things and not responding to them and refusing to listen. I guess I could point out seeing how you brought it up that not everyone agrees Doflamingo is a top tier. But also that it doesn't matter seeing how Admirals have been shown in the manga facing groups of people including one or more top tiers (that are actually more commonly agreed upon to be top-tiers than Doflamingo) before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's amazing how some people can write and quote so much yet, barely address any of the original post. Are you by chance studying/have studied politics? If you chose to not address my post and go on a rant and say you won't reply to anymore, that fine. But just to let you know that I'd put forward sufficient time and effort to read, understand and addressed your post with the utmost respect and seeing something like this is very disrespectful and rather rude.


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## Shanks (Mar 30, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> How did WB's head do when he attempted to dodge Meigou? Akainu ripped half of it off easily. It really doesn't matter how weakened he is. If Akainu got a free Meigou on WB's head at the beginning of the war WB is dead. Comparing a bisento slash to Meigou makes no sense. Nobody unless they have insane COA is not dying getting hit by a free Meigou. You can't tank something that takes your head off with magma. Nothing that you say proves If WB's full head took Meigou it wouldn't get blown off like half of his face. You're grasping where there's no straws to take. When Akainu used Meigou he took off half of WB's face and if WB didn't dodge his whole head would be gone. That's what happened in the manga and no amount of denial can stop that.



Alright, so firstly, we need to understand what ?free shot? means. When WB had a heart attack and Akainu had ample time to chose and deliver whatever moves he wants as a finisher at a WB, WB was completely and utterly defenseless, therefore that is a free shot. WB could not stand, use CoA or defend and his durability depreciated to the absolute minimum to the point that folder marines attacks landed countless times.

In Akainu?s case, he was fighting Marco. And then WB (a giant) approach and attack from behind and we also have marines yelling out ?Akainu-san!!! Watch Out!!!? and Akainu responded with ?HM?? before the fist landed. Let me break this down and explain clearly:


1)	Fighting Marco ? his endurance and durability will be at the utmost strongest, because he?s fighting a top tier opponent at that time.
2)	Giant from behind ? Wouldn?t Akainu hear some sort of raging foot-step or strong gliding wind approaching him? Better yet, could he not sense someone as strong as WB approaching him? Ray clearly states that while using CoO, he was able to sense 500 animal in that island stronger than Luffy.
3)	Marines screening out ?Akainu-san!!! Watch Out!!!? and he responded, so obviously had an idea of what?s going on.

All this indicates that he was somewhat aware and was able to counter immediately after by using CoA to soften the blow. As a result, that is not a ?free hit?.

Half of WB?s head was taken off was intentional, because WB obviously sense that first quake punch did not achieved as much as he wanted, therefore decided to go in with a kamakazi by focusing solely on offensive and took that meigou in order to get an opening to counter with an island splitter, which should have done a lot more, but somehow Oda gave Akainu god like endurance at that time.

Should WB be in character and could use his CoA, then a direct hit from meigou to the face will not melt WB face off because WB does in fact have monstrous CoA, just as Akainu was able to survive and not get his brains destroyed with that quake punch. This means it is impossible for Akainu to do this at the beginning of the war.


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## trance (Mar 30, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> 1)	Fighting Marco ? his endurance and durability will be at the utmost strongest, because he?s fighting a top tier opponent at that time.



It was not a fight. Akainu tried attacking Luffy, Marco blocked him but gave no further action, neither did Akainu before Whitebeard came up.



> 2)	Giant from behind ? Wouldn?t Akainu hear some sort of raging foot-step or strong gliding wind approaching him? Better yet, could he not sense someone as strong as WB approaching him? Ray clearly states that while using CoO, he was able to sense 500 animal in that island stronger than Luffy.



And who says every top tier has Observation Haki as good as Rayleigh? He has acute hearing and obviously should've heard Whitebeard coming but again, clusterfuck of inconsistencies.



> 3)	Marines screening out ?Akainu-san!!! Watch Out!!!? and he responded, so obviously had an idea of what?s going on.
> 
> All this indicates that he was somewhat aware and was able to counter immediately after by using CoA to soften the blow. As a result, that is not a ?free hit?.



No. It's your *assumption* that he was somewhat aware. Then again, trying to pass your assumption off as fact is nothing new for you, isn't it?

Also, arguing semantics much? 



> Half of WB?s head was taken off was intentional, because WB obviously sense that first quake punch did not achieved as much as he wanted, *therefore decided to go in with a kamakazi by focusing solely on offensive and took that meigou in order to get an opening to counter with an island splitter*, which should have done a lot more, but somehow Oda gave Akainu god like endurance at that time.



Or, Akainu truly caught Whitebeard off guard with his "Meigo"? Face it. Your assumptions are no less true or false than mine or Slender's.


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## Slenderman (Mar 30, 2014)

> 1)	Fighting Marco ? his endurance and durability will be at the utmost strongest, because he?s fighting a top tier opponent at that time.
> 2)	Giant from behind ? Wouldn?t Akainu hear some sort of raging foot-step or strong gliding wind approaching him? Better yet, could he not sense someone as strong as WB approaching him? Ray clearly states that while using CoO, he was able to sense 500 animal in that island stronger than Luffy.
> 3)	Marines screening out ?Akainu-san!!! Watch Out!!!? and he responded, so obviously had an idea of what?s going on.
> 
> ...


.

They said Akainu san and he said hmm and a millisecond later WB smashed his head. There is no proof that he used COA. WB snuck up on him and attacked him before he could react. That's what happened in the manga. What you're saying is speculation. 

Wb snuck up on him Akainu didn't react and WB hit him. Comparing Ray to Akainu is highly irrelevant in this debate. 




> Half of WB?s head was taken off was intentional, because WB obviously sense that first quake punch did not achieved as much as he wanted, therefore decided to go in with a kamakazi by focusing solely on offensive and took that meigou in order to get an opening to counter with an island splitter, which should have done a lot more, but somehow Oda gave Akainu god like endurance at that time.



He looked at Akainu's fist, tried to dodge and half of his face went off. Hence his head was tilted sideways. Nobody in their right mind would try to tank hound of hades and not dodge. The last part is more speculation. It happened in the manga, that's the bottom line no matter that you say. 




> Should WB be in character and could use his CoA, then a direct hit from meigou to the face will not melt WB face off because WB does in fact have monstrous CoA, just as Akainu was able to survive and not get his brains destroyed with that quake punch. This means it is impossible for Akainu to do this at the beginning of the war.



WB showed at the beginning of the war that his COA wasn't working well. He failed to hurt Kuzan and only was able to use COA or any kind of haki when Ace died by using that to fuel on his willpower. If Sakazuki got a free hit on his head WB would be dead. No matter what speculation you bring up that's the facts. WB's COA didn't do shit for him when Akainu melted his face off, or when he tied to stab Kuzan.


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## Shanks (Mar 30, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> It was not a fight. Akainu tried attacking Luffy, Marco blocked him but gave no further action, neither did Akainu before Whitebeard came up.



Actually, it is. Marco & Vista attacked Akainu.

Half a chapter later, we continue to see Marco panting in 1 pannel and magma raging behind Luffy & Ace.

Then Akainu found an opening and attack Luffy and Marco jumped back in.


But that’s beside the point. Akainu was blood lusted and went all out, so technically his base durability will be significantly higher than a WB getting and heart attack and using all his will power just to cope and not die.


Stαrkiller said:


> And who says every top tier has Observation Haki as good as Rayleigh? He has acute hearing and obviously should've heard Whitebeard coming but again, clusterfuck of inconsistencies.


Yes, who is saying that? I certainly am not saying that, but you don’t need to be a CoO master to sense the power of the World’s Stronger Man coming at you.
With such a big giant coming at you, obviously the sound would be more obvious and it’s not just hearing though. There’s also gliding of winds, etc. 



Stαrkiller said:


> No. It's your *assumption* that he was somewhat aware. Then again, trying to pass your assumption off as fact is nothing new for you, isn't it?


It’s not an assumption at all. I mean, you would think that if someone yells and scream and you reacted with something you obviously heard that person.


Stαrkiller said:


> Also, arguing semantics much?


What now? I’ve being hearing ‘semantics’ response more and more these days. Seems like a trend. Cool word, I might use it sometimes.



Stαrkiller said:


> Or, Akainu truly caught Whitebeard off guard with his "Meigo"? Face it. Your assumptions are no less true or false than mine or Slender's.


That’s not the point thought. It’s pretty obvious WB was focusing 100% of his energy and haki going in and delivering the final blow, so of course Meigo would do more than if WB sit back, stay in character and defend with CoA instead.



Slenderman said:


> .
> They said Akainu san and he said hmm and a millisecond later WB smashed his head. There is no proof that he used COA. WB snuck up on him and attacked him before he could react. That's what happened in the manga. What you're saying is speculation.



I’m sure it’s a lot more than ‘a millisecond’. The point being, there was time for the marines to yell out and he had time to respond. That’s ample time to activate defensive CoA.

What more proof do you need? Akainu admit it bluntly? Come on, this is not how the manga works. Oda gave us all the information we need to read his manga and interpreted it logically and we don’t need anymore “proof”.

Just become he didn’t turn around, doesn’t mean he couldn’t react. Vergo can obviously go full body CoA and pre-skip version CoA should be able to active faster than his movement also.



Slenderman said:


> Wb snuck up on him Akainu didn't react and WB hit him. Comparing Ray to Akainu is highly irrelevant in this debate.


It’s definitely not speculation at all. When a “free hit” was given from WB’s end to Akainu or to Squardo, Oda made it blatantly obvious that it was a “Free Hit”, while in this case, Oda gave us all sorts of hints to say otherwise. It’s not that hard to understand, man.

I am not comparing Ray to Akainu, bro, just stating how CoO works with manga references.



Slenderman said:


> He looked at Akainu's fist, tried to dodge and half of his face went off. Hence his head was tilted sideways. Nobody in their right mind would try to tank hound of hades and not dodge. The last part is more speculation. It happened in the manga, that's the bottom line no matter that you say.


He tried to dodge, yes, but he was focusing solely on offensive then and once again, that’s not the point. Whether he tried to dodge or not, the main point is that Oda couldn’t made it more obvious that WB was focusing all his powers into that final blow and leaving nothing left to defend himself with.



Slenderman said:


> WB showed at the beginning of the war that his COA wasn't working well. He failed to hurt Kuzan and only was able to use COA or any kind of haki when Ace died by using that to fuel on his willpower. If Sakazuki got a free hit on his head WB would be dead. No matter what speculation you bring up that's the facts. WB's COA didn't do shit for him when Akainu melted his face off, or when he tied to stab Kuzan.


Come on bro, the fodders clearly said that WB was using a haki stab the second time WB fought Kuzan. You can do better than this. Whether WB using CoA or not at the beginning of the war is irrelevant, but what’s important is that he WB is capable of using CoA. And dude, this is WB, the undisputed reigning champion of the world’s fucken strongest man within the great pirate era, Edward Fucken Newgate. Of course he can use CoA…

Anyone who gets a free shot from a top tier or Zoro for that matter and don’t use CoA or Devil Fruit powers to defend if no doubt get completely destroyed, including Akainu. That’s just how lethal these guys are. 

And to both Slenderman & Stαrkiller, it not 1 thing, but a number of hints that Oda gave us. If it’s just 1 small hint, then we might be able to write that off, but not when things are this obviously.

The most important thing is not those hints itself, but what happens after. Akainu was able to counter right after. You think if Akainu wasn’t using any CoA to defend, he could take on that quake punch at point blank? Come on, give the World’s Strongest Man some credit, please!


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## trance (Mar 31, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Actually, it is. Marco & Vista attacked Akainu.
> 
> Half a chapter later, we continue to see Marco panting in 1 pannel and magma raging behind Luffy & Ace.
> 
> Then Akainu found an opening and attack Luffy and Marco jumped back in.



So, Akainu can hold off Marco and Vista both at the same time. Interesting. 



> But that?s beside the point. Akainu was blood lusted and went all out, so technically his base durability will be significantly higher than a WB getting and heart attack and using all his will power just to cope and not die.



Akainu is almost always bloodlusted. Also, he didn't quite use his powers to their fullest. Neither did Kuzan, Kizaru or Whitebeard for that matter. If they did, MarineFord would've vanished. 



> Yes, who is saying that? I certainly am not saying that, but you don?t need to be a CoO master to sense the power of the World?s Stronger Man coming at you.



Ah ha!! So you admit Whitebeard was *still* the "World's Strongest Man" at this point in time. Glad to see you admitted this. :ignoramus



> With such a big giant coming at you, obviously the sound would be more obvious and it?s not just hearing though. There?s also gliding of winds, etc.



It was in the middle of a war. As you kindly pointed out, he was fighting Marco and shit. Even for a big guy like Whitebeard, if you're fully pre-occupied with what's in front of you and there's countless other clashes going, etc, then it would be all the more difficult to hear someone sneaking up on you. 



> It?s not an assumption at all. I mean, you would think that if someone yells and scream and you reacted with something you obviously heard that person.



If he was somewhat aware, he could've done like Kuzan did earlier and flowed his Logia around Whitebeard's attack. Duh! 



> What now? I?ve being hearing ?semantics? response more and more these days. Seems like a trend. Cool word, I might use it sometimes.



Look it up.  



> That?s not the point thought. It?s pretty obvious WB was focusing 100% of his energy and haki going in and delivering the final blow, so of course Meigo would do more than if WB sit back, stay in character and defend with CoA instead.



But to say that even with Armaments Haki, he could fully resist his face being melted off (by what is quite possibly one of Akainu's finishers no less) is a pretty big overestimation of Armaments Haki. It's not a "be all, end all". Yes, it's extremely helpful and effective in combat if used properly but even at a high level, you don't become indestructible to any and all kinds of attacks. This isn't Dragonball. :/



> Come on bro, the fodders clearly said that WB was using a haki stab the second time WB fought Kuzan. You can do better than this. Whether WB using CoA or not at the beginning of the war is irrelevant, but what?s important is that he WB is capable of using CoA. *And dude, this is WB, the undisputed reigning champion of the world?s fucken strongest man within the great pirate era, Edward Fucken Newgate. Of course he can use CoA*?



Not that I don't think Whitebeard had or could use Armaments Haki (which he clearly does possess and can use as shown against Akainu) but to say he can solely based off his title isn't a good argument.



> And to both Slenderman & Stαrkiller, it not 1 thing, but a number of hints that Oda gave us. If it?s just 1 small hint, then we might be able to write that off, but not when things are this obviously.
> 
> The most important thing is not those hints itself, but what happens after. *Akainu was able to counter right after. You think if Akainu wasn?t using any CoA to defend, he could take on that quake punch at point blank?* Come on, give the World?s Strongest Man some credit, please!



So, now you've gone from claiming he survived that quake punch with PIS to saying he survived using Armaments Haki? Make up your mind. 

IMHO, he should be able to properly tank it because he's just that much of a monster as he (and the other Admirals) have clearly been portrayed as. Was he hurt from the attack? Obviously but he didn't have time to just lie there and wait for the pain to subside, he was fighting a (potentially) life-or-death, one-on-one battle with the "World's Strongest Man" in the middle of a war. He *had* to fight through the pain otherwise, he would've just looked utterly weak and pathetic. 

He did end up losing that certain fight but it was after being overpowered with a stronger attack after having just delivered one of his own which was too much for him to tank at one time, rather than being hit by the first attack, rolling around in pain and being hit by second one whilst still on the ground. One paints him the image of an endurance monster, the other just makes him look weak and helpless. 

Also, I do give Whitebeard his credit. As controversial and inconsistent as MarineFord was, I firmly believe Oda portrayed Whitebeard as superior to the Admirals. Not by a miniscule amount but also not by a vast amount either. Just enough for him to be decisively superior to any of them but still be given a fairly difficult fight in the process.


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## Slenderman (Mar 31, 2014)

> It’s not an assumption at all. I mean, you would think that if someone yells and scream and you reacted with something you obviously heard that person.



Did it happen in the manga directly? No. Then it's speculation. 




> I’m sure it’s a lot more than ‘a millisecond’. The point being, there was time for the marines to yell out and he had time to respond. That’s ample time to activate defensive CoA.



I may have used a bit of an hyperbole but he never used it in any place other then your head. 




> What more proof do you need? Akainu admit it bluntly? Come on, this is not how the manga works. Oda gave us all the information we need to read his manga and interpreted it logically and we don’t need anymore “proof”.



Fan speculation isn't what Oda gives us. No matter how you sugar it up it was a free hit deal with it. 




> Just become he didn’t turn around, doesn’t mean he couldn’t react. Vergo can obviously go full body CoA and pre-skip version CoA should be able to active faster than his movement also.



You're comparing apples to oranges. Akainu is not Vergo and he didn't use COA. A fact you are denying. 




> It’s definitely not speculation at all. When a “free hit” was given from WB’s end to Akainu or to Squardo, Oda made it blatantly obvious that it was a “Free Hit”, while in this case, Oda gave us all sorts of hints to say otherwise. It’s not that hard to understand, man.



You're saying speculation. It never blatantly happened in any place in the manga. 





> Come on bro, the fodders clearly said that WB was using a haki stab the second time WB fought Kuzan. You can do better than this. Whether WB using CoA or not at the beginning of the war is irrelevant, but what’s important is that he WB is capable of using CoA. And dude, this is WB, the undisputed reigning champion of the world’s fucken strongest man within the great pirate era, Edward Fucken Newgate. Of course he can use CoA…



That's literally what you just said  He can't use it properly against admirals until Ace died. 





> And to both Slenderman & Stαrkiller, it not 1 thing, but a number of hints that Oda gave us. If it’s just 1 small hint, then we might be able to write that off, but not when things are this obviously.



Hint does not equal speculation. 



> The most important thing is not those hints itself, but what happens after. Akainu was able to counter right after. You think if Akainu wasn’t using any CoA to defend, he could take on that quake punch at point blank? Come on, give the World’s Strongest Man some credit, please!



Give the Fleet Admiral of the Marines some credit. Why would one blow form a half dead man kill him? It happened in the manga, you don't have a problem saying Luffy took blows from Kizaru so why have a problem saying Akainu tanked WB's first attack? 

If you're going to continue to say speculation I am not continuing this debate further. 99% of the section agree's with me and I really have better things to do then arguing with speculation. You're better than this.


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## Shanks (Mar 31, 2014)

At both *Slenderman & Stαrkiller*, I'm a little bored right now, so will addressed all your points sooner or later. For now, I have 2 questions. Answering with just "Yes" or "No" would be sufficient for the first question.

Do you honestly believe and cross your heart and swear to the almighty Zolo that base Pre-skip Akainu (no Haki usage, no DF power) was capable of taking a direct hit from Edward Newgate on point blank from behind, from a blood-lusted haki infused quake punch to the back of the head and could still fight back at that time?

Second question and you can answer with how many words you want. If this was the WB from the beginning of the war, do you believe Akainu would have steam left to fight back?


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## Slenderman (Mar 31, 2014)

1. Akainu would tank it. I think that WB's quakes weren't at there strongest after multiple attacks and a few heart attacks iirc.  

2. Akainu would probably be on the brink of death with a healthy WB strike. The WB he fought was not healthy at all.


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## Dellinger (Mar 31, 2014)

Why the hell did this turn out about Akainu vs WB?


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## Slenderman (Mar 31, 2014)

Because lol plot happened.


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## Dellinger (Mar 31, 2014)

Anyway,Kuzan high diffs this battle.

The seats are fodder and he beats Doflamingo with mid-high difficulty.


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## Shanks (Mar 31, 2014)

The reason this conversation extended to this lenght in the first place are because Firstly, you said the following:



Slenderman said:


> How is WB going to survive his head getting blown off? He's not God. *Give Akainu that chance and WB's head is gone. *No matter how strong he is getting his heart melted or his whole head melted off will kill him. It's something you can't function with without it. Whether your the WSM or not.





Slenderman said:


> How did WB's head do when he attempted to dodge Meigou? Akainu ripped half of it off easily. It really doesn't matter how weakened he is. *If Akainu got a free Meigou on WB's head at the beginning of the war WB is dead.* Comparing a bisento slash to Meigou makes no sense. Nobody unless they have insane COA is not dying getting hit by a free Meigou. You can't tank something that takes your head off with magma. Nothing that you say proves If WB's full head took Meigou it wouldn't get blown off like half of his face. You're grasping where there's no straws to take. When Akainu used Meigou he took off half of WB's face and if WB didn't dodge his whole head would be gone. That's what happened in the manga and no amount of denial can stop that.



Now you changed your views and said the following:



Slenderman said:


> 1. Akainu would tank it. I think that WB's quakes weren't at there strongest after multiple attacks and a few heart attacks iirc.
> 
> 2. *Akainu would probably be on the brink of death with a healthy WB strike*. The WB he fought was not healthy at all.



1. I have no issues with people thinking that Akainu was able to tank that fist to the back of the head due to significant injuries and being handicapped, therefore got severally weaken.

2. I also have no issues with people saying that if WB have a proper free shot and have not being severally weaken, Akainu would be in "on the brink of death" and vise versa.

In other words, there's nothing else to debate on because you concede to your original argument and everything that's being said on post #138 and StarKiller on #137 are irrelevant.

If StarKiller still believes that Akainu will not be "on the brink of death" should he take a Free-shot from WB at the beginning of the war and vise versa or something along that line, then we can continue this debate.

Else, we’re done.


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## Slenderman (Mar 31, 2014)

I don't believe you read what I said properly. 

I said that Akainu with a free shot to WB's head would kill him. And I said WB would bang up Akainu badly if he took a free shot. Whatever you got from that says a concession is no where to be found.  

What you just said makes non sense. If anyone is showing a concession it's you whom decided not to reply to my post.


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## Slenderman (Mar 31, 2014)

How can I change my views when I said Akainu could kill WB with a free shot and WB can bang up Akainu badly with a free shot? You're not understanding what i'm saying. 

I don't think you're reading with the intent to think while doing so but rather reading with the intent to try to make a fake concession out of my post which clearly doesn't say so anyway.


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## Shanks (Mar 31, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> How can I change my views when I said Akainu could kill WB with a free shot and WB can bang up Akainu badly with a free shot? You're not understanding what i'm saying.
> 
> I don't think you're reading with the intent to think while doing so but rather reading with the intent to try to make a fake concession out of my post which clearly doesn't say so anyway.


You said _*"brink of death"*_. That's alot more damaging than *"bang up"*. Unless you want to change your views again and say "bang up" on post #140 instead, we're done.


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## Slenderman (Mar 31, 2014)

I made a slight mistake in words my bad. I also said bang up after you posted that, so I didn't change my views again. You're making stuff up, again. Still I don't think you're using them meaning of concession properly. 

Technically that would be you, whom gave no evidence for your bold claim of Akainu used COA. Which I said was wrong and you gave no argument that disproves what I said. That is not responding to my question. Which would be a point in my favor as you have not made a feasible argument. 

Also I never gave you a defintion of banged up or brink of death. Banged up could mean almost dead but I never stated that. 

Saying were done doesn't give you a free win, that's actually quite the contrary as you have yet to refute what I told you.


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## Shanks (Mar 31, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> 1. I made a slight mistake in words my bad. I also said bang up after you posted that, so I didn't change my views again. You're making stuff up, again. Still I don't think you're using them meaning of concession properly.
> 
> 2. Technically that would be you, whom gave no evidence for your bold claim of Akainu used COA. Which I said was wrong and you gave no argument that disproves what I said. That is not responding to my question. Which would be a point in my favor as you have not made a feasible argument.
> 
> ...




1. How am I making stuff up when all I am doing in quoting and bold what you said?
2. No evidence? I've being writing walls of text of evidences, but that's not the point right now. I will discuss in more detail once we sort this out. Before we can drill drown to the sub arguments, we need to sort out the what the topic is really about first, otherwise we're just going to be wasting everyone's time.
3. Those are two completely different phrases. If you're on the " brink of death" you will die should there be no immediate intervention. If you're just "Banged up" you're more likely to survive even if there's no immediate help. They are completely and utterly different especially when it comes to the context of this discussion.
4. I said we're done, because there's nothing else to discuss if you believe in " brink of death". If you don't believe that, then go ahead and edit post #140 and we can chat further.


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## Slenderman (Mar 31, 2014)

> 1. How am I making stuff up when all I am doing in quoting and bold what you said?



You said it before when I never said so hence making it up  I later said so by accident probably because I was thinking of when you said bang up and I wrote it by accident. Or type whatever. 





> 2. No evidence? I've being writing walls of text of evidences, but that's not the point right now. I will discuss in more detail once we sort this out. Before we can drill drown to the sub arguments, we need to sort out the what the topic is really about first, otherwise we're just going to be wasting everyone's time.



Whenever you're ready. 



> 3. Those are two completely different phrases. If you're on the " brink of death" you will die should there be no immediate intervention. If you're just "Banged up" you're more likely to survive even if there's no immediate help. They are completely and utterly different especially when it comes to the context of this discussion.



"Oh he's really banged up. He could be dead!" Do you see the context of that sentance. It depends on what the person's definition of it means. Like I said this is semantics which I don't care arguing for. I made a mistake sorry. 




> 4. I said we're done, because there's nothing else to discuss if you believe in " brink of death". If you don't believe that, then go ahead and edit post #140 and we can chat further.



You said Akainu used COA when WB attacked. I made you drop the argument. I made a mistake. You still haven't found an argument for Akainu used COA. Hence  simply concede the point as you have no argument and are throwing all of your eggs into this mistake basket. 

*You* are the one that has no arguementfor what I said about Akainu using not using COA. 

If you say were done why do you continue to post? You already showed me you have no arguement for Akainu using COA.


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## Shanks (Mar 31, 2014)

When did I dropped the any arguments?

Forget about what you said before. Where's only done (or continue to write walls of text) once we agree or disagree whether a free shot from Healthy WB can kill Akainu or not. Forget about semantics, forget about usage of words. Write 10 pages to answer question 2 if you need to, but answer it clearly with black and while instead of using vague words to make things difficult.


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## Slenderman (Mar 31, 2014)

A free shot fro Healthy WB would almost kill WB. 

I was referring to my wall of text on the last page (7) which you did not answer too.


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## Shanks (Mar 31, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> 1.A free shot fro Healthy WB would *almost *kill Akainu.
> 
> 2. I was referring to my wall of text on the last page (7) which you did not answer too.



1. Could he die should he not get immediate medical attension or not. It's not a hard answer. Yes or No.
2. Answer my question properly and I'll draft a reply to all your responses.


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## Slenderman (Mar 31, 2014)

I see what your questions are doing and what kind of trap you're trying to put me in. 

That's actually a trick question. When hit by a shockwave you can't bleed out. But your bones could be crushed. It really depends on if it would crush Akainu's bones which I don't know. 

If it doesn't crush his bones/they are about to be crushed he could go without medical attention but would probably get KO'd. 

If bones are crushed he obviously dies.


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## Shanks (Mar 31, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> When hit by a shockwave you can't bleed out. But your bones could be crushed. It really depends on if it would crush Akainu's bones* which I don't know*.
> 
> If it doesn't crush his bones/they are about to be crushed he could go without medical attention but would probably get KO'd.
> 
> If bones are crushed he obviously dies.


Here’s where the main issues is. Like I said previously, the only reason you we’re having this long debate is because in the beginning you *DO KNOW*. 

Looking at these scenarios, nothing is concert, but it’s about finding certain things in the manga that will make a certain scenario more plausible than the other, which is why we’re having this debate.

Let me quickly summarise on both of our point of views based on the latest posts.

Scenario 1: My View
•	Whitebeard’s defensive non-existence at the end of the war comparing to the beginning of the war
•	Whitebeard’s offensive at the end of the war is still close to the beginning of the war
•	Akainu needed all his power (base stats + haki defense) to survive all of Whitebeards offensive power (DF, Base stats and Haki)

In conclusion a *strong Akainu* (using defensive CoA) could tank a *strong Whitebeard* (Offensive is still as deadly comparing to beginning of the war)

Scenario 2: Your View Current
•	Whitebeard’s offensive at the end of the war is weaker than beginning of the war
•	Akainu needed only needed his base stats to survive a weaken Whitebeards in terms of offensive power.

In conclusion a *weak Akainu* (no defensive CoA) could tank a *weak Whitebeard* (Offensive decreased dramatically through the war)

Scenario 3: Your Old View
•	Akainu with nothing but base could tank a free shot from a fresh Whitebeard and still live
•	WB will die with a freeshot from fresh Akainu despite defending with CoA or Whitebeard don’t have CoA.

In conclusion a* weak Akainu* (no defensive CoA) could tank a *strong Whitebeard *(Offensive at maximum at the beginning of the war)

Without calling PIS or Plot, it’s plausible for either one of scenario 1 & 2 to be correct and if my point of view is 1 and yours is 2, then we're essentially scaling the power level of Akainu & Whitebeard in a similar manner regardless of what our views are and if that is the case then there’s really nothing to debate on.

This entire debate, I have being debating against the notion of scenario 3, were by a weak Akainu could tank a Strong Whitebeard, which you obviously either don’t believe anymore or don’t know, so we no longer have a debate. It’s that simple.


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## Slenderman (Mar 31, 2014)

Okay bye have a great time


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## trance (Apr 1, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Do you honestly believe and cross your heart and swear to the almighty Zolo that base Pre-skip Akainu (no Haki usage, no DF power) was capable of taking a direct hit from Edward Newgate on point blank from behind, from a blood-lusted haki infused quake punch to the back of the head and could still fight back at that time?



Yes. 



> Second question and you can answer with how many words you want. If this was the WB from the beginning of the war, do you believe Akainu would have steam left to fight back?



IMHO, if it was Whitebeard from the beginning of the War that delivered a strike to Sakazuki, I believe Sakazuki could tank it but be left in no condition to fight afterwards. Essentially, he would survive but be defeated.


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## Shanks (Apr 1, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> So, Akainu can hold off Marco and Vista both at the same time. Interesting.


Nope. Vista and Marco attacked Akainu, things went off panel and the next time we only saw Marco and Akainu?s Magma. Vista was nowhere to be found. After that we saw Marco tanking a Magma fist to the face and Vista is still nowhere to be found.
So you agree to my point that Akainu was fighting. Good.



Stαrkiller said:


> Akainu is almost always bloodlusted. Also, he didn't quite use his powers to their fullest. Neither did Kuzan, Kizaru or Whitebeard for that matter. If they did, MarineFord would've vanished.


That?s not true. In terms of AoE, yes they could do more, but when it comes down to concentrated attack, Akainu went all out. He is bloodlust and fighting the strongest man in the world. There is no reason to hold back.

Kuzan and Borsalino are irreverent to this discussion.

So you agree that Akainu was blood lusted. Good.



Stαrkiller said:


> Ah ha!! So you admit Whitebeard was *still* the "World's Strongest Man" at this point in time. Glad to see you admitted this. :ignoramus



Why wouldn?t he be the World?s Strongest Man in terms of his destructive offensive power? Did you forget what that final island splitter did?

He is however no longer the strongest in terms of defensive, stamina, endurance and durability, therefore I have reasons to speculate that if guys like Shanks fighting WB the second time WB vs. Akainu (or even right After the heart Attack), Shanks would be victories. Obviously this is just speculation based on hype and we need more feats to determine this.

What?s the point of bring these up?



Stαrkiller said:


> It was in the middle of a war. As you kindly pointed out, he was fighting Marco and shit. Even for a big guy like Whitebeard, if you're fully pre-occupied with what's in front of you and there's countless other clashes going, etc, then it would be all the more difficult to hear someone sneaking up on you.



The thing is, you can try and explain and make up as much excuses as you want, but the fact of the matter is, there are many many chances and possibilities that would allow Akainu to get just a split sec notice, which would be more than enough to activate CoA.

But if we look at WB?s scenario when he had the heart attack, therefore there?s absolutely no way he could have defended. No if, er, but, hmm. Pure and simply that was a free hit, while WB hitting Akainu isn?t that clear cut.

Not only Akainu had multiple opportunities to recoginise that WB was behind him, but the result made it a lot more plausible to say he used CoA to tank that quake punch, because WB?s offensive power did not seem to have depreciated at all. The quake punch delivered to Akainu looks the same as the one to Ronso. The final island splitter is one of the most destructive moves WB used in the entire war.

So in order not claim PIS or Plot, the most plausible scenario would be Akainu can tank WB?s offensive with close to 100% power, but only if Akainu uses 100% of his defensive capabilities also. To claim that he didn?t use CoA is equivalent to saying that his skins and bones alone is enough to tank such a monster of a move from behind which is completely inconsistent to what the author have being portraying and scale those two?s power to be. 



Stαrkiller said:


> If he was somewhat aware, he could've done like Kuzan did earlier and flowed his Logia around Whitebeard's attack. Duh!


Kuzan is an evasion monster and Akainu is a tank and slower than Aokiji. They fight differently. Also Kuzan had more time? a lot more time. While Akainu have less than a sec, which is all he needs to active CoA, but probably not enough dodge or turn around.



Stαrkiller said:


> But to say that even with Armaments Haki, he could fully resist his face being melted off (by what is quite possibly one of Akainu's finishers no less) is a pretty big overestimation of Armaments Haki. It's not a "be all, end all". Yes, it's extremely helpful and effective in combat if used properly but even at a high level, you don't become indestructible to any and all kinds of attacks. This isn't Dragonball. :/



Why would it be an over-estimation of CoA? Haki can be as weak at the Amazon Lilly and as strong as Shanks. No matter how lethal a devil fruit power is, as long as you have enough Haki + base power + devil power combine will give you enough durability to tank it, then you can. It all comes down to whether you have the power or not and a healthy WB being the WSM will no doubt have the overall defensive capabilities to tank a concentrated Manga fist. And I don?t mean the Magma fist will do nothing. It will still do some damage (similar to WB damaged Akainu), but his head will certainly won?t melt off completely like Slenderman previously claim.



Stαrkiller said:


> Not that I don't think Whitebeard had or could use Armaments Haki (which he clearly does possess and can use as shown against Akainu) but to say he can solely based off his title isn't a good argument.


Like I said above, it?s not just CoA, but overall defensive capabilities and with strong CoA to compliment his already monstrous base and devil fruit power. If this has caused any confusion previously due to lack of information given, then I apologise.



Stαrkiller said:


> So, now you've gone from claiming he survived that quake punch with PIS to saying he survived using Armaments Haki? Make up your mind.



No, back in the WB thread in the OL, I was claiming that on the island splitter, not the first quake punch. 
Let?s not drill on that second punch. I don?t feel like getting ganged by 10 Admiral Fanboys today.



Stαrkiller said:


> IMHO, he should be able to properly tank it because he's just that much of a monster as he (and the other Admirals) have clearly been portrayed as. Was he hurt from the attack? Obviously but he didn't have time to just lie there and wait for the pain to subside, he was fighting a (potentially) life-or-death, one-on-one battle with the "World's Strongest Man" in the middle of a war. He *had* to fight through the pain otherwise, he would've just looked utterly weak and pathetic.


The only way he could legitimately tank that hit without using CoA is if WB?s offensive got significantly weaker throughout the war and as I stated above the doesn?t seem to be the case.



Stαrkiller said:


> He did end up losing that certain fight but it was after being overpowered with a stronger attack after having just delivered one of his own which was too much for him to tank at one time, rather than being hit by the first attack, rolling around in pain and being hit by second one whilst still on the ground. One paints him the image of an endurance monster, the other just makes him look weak and helpless.


Come again? Are you claiming that the first quake punch is significantly weaker than the second? It?s weaker, but couldn?t be that much weaker. WB?s son just got killed by Akainu for god sake.

And Akainu doesn?t need to be rolling around in pain. Why can?t he just tank it with 100% of his overall defensive capabilities? Having that level of endurance while using a combination of base stats + CoA + DF mastery is fitting for a mid-level top tier, which will make that event consistent and makes perfect sense without having to claim PIS or Plot.



Stαrkiller said:


> Also, I do give Whitebeard his credit. As controversial and inconsistent as MarineFord was, I firmly believe Oda portrayed Whitebeard as superior to the Admirals. Not by a miniscule amount but also not by a vast amount either. Just enough for him to be decisively superior to any of them but still be given a fairly difficult fight in the process.
> 
> IMHO, if it was Whitebeard from the beginning of the War that delivered a strike to Sakazuki, I believe Sakazuki could tank it but be left in no condition to fight afterwards. Essentially, he would survive but be defeated.


The issue here is that you?re giving Akainu even higher level of durability and endurance compare to WB, so claiming that you?re giving Whitebeard?s credit here is not right.

Akainu?s manga is lethal and can melt faces, but Whitebeard?s shock wave can crush you to the bones. They are just as lethal as each other.


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## Unclear Justice (Apr 1, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> *Akainu?s manga is lethal* and can melt faces, but Whitebeard?s shock wave can crush you to the bones. They are just as lethal as each other.



Do you have a link? I might want to show it to some people.


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## Lawliet (Apr 1, 2014)

> If Akainu got a free Meigou on WB's head at the beginning of the war WB is dead





> Akainu would probably be on the brink of death with a healthy WB strike.



I can't even understand how someone can mistake these two sentences to "changing views". And I always thought I wasn't explaining thoroughly, but I guess no matter how much you explain, some will always get it wrong.


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## Shanks (Apr 1, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> Do you have a link? I might want to show it to some people.



Lol. Your first joke since when? You have finally evolve from Corus level. Congra!!! I'm so happy for you, bro. 

Typo, but people obviously know what I am talking about.


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## Unclear Justice (Apr 1, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Lol. Your first joke since when? You have finally evolve from Corus level. Congra!!! I'm so happy for you, bro.
> 
> Typo, but people obviously know what I am talking about.



I never was Corus level. I?m funny from time to time... well, at least I try.

The typo was too funny for me to not comment on it, no offense.


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## Shanks (Apr 1, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I can't even understand how someone can mistake these two sentences to "changing views". And I always thought I wasn't explaining thoroughly, but I guess no matter how much you explain, some will always get it wrong.



You need to read everything and put it into context. If you don't understand then read everything that being said again. It doesn't help if you don't like reading tl;dr and taking things out of context.


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## Lawliet (Apr 1, 2014)

I wish everyone here was Corus level.


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## Shanks (Apr 1, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> I never was Corus level. I?m funny from time to time... well, at least I try.
> 
> The typo was too funny for me to not comment on it, no offense.



No offence taken, I laughed too.


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## Lawliet (Apr 1, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> You need to read everything and put it into context. If you don't understand then read everything that being said again. It doesn't help if you don't like reading tl;dr and taking things out of context.



You're going to hold that "you don't like to read" thing against me forever even though I probably read more than you do on daily basis. I don't have to read the whole thing. The fact that at one point, you mistook what slenderman was trying to say even though it was a very simple statement by his side proves how wrong you understand everyones' posts all the time (and no everyone does not literally mean everyone, just in case you ask) . You're the one who said this whole problem started because and quoted and bolded what Slenderman was saying. So... What am I missing now other than "not reading" and "not explaining"


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## Shanks (Apr 1, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> You're going to hold that "you don't like to read" thing against me forever even though I probably read more than you do on daily basis. I don't have to read the whole thing. The fact that at one point, you mistook what slenderman was trying to say even though it was a very simple statement by his side proves how wrong you understand everyones' posts all the time (and no everyone does not literally mean everyone, just in case you ask) . You're the one who said this whole problem started because and quoted and bolded what Slenderman was saying. So... What am I missing now other than "not reading" and "not explaining"



In the beginning he believed Akainu would melt WB's entire face off with a free hit and WB won't be able to kill Akainu given a similar free shot. Now he believe Akainu would be on the brink of death or not quite sure in the later post.

I obviously quoted that for his eyes and can probably do better quoting for the casual audience, but he obviously understands and we came to an agreement. So there's no issue there.

If you don't understand or don't like to read everything, just ask people to explain. That last post was uncall for.


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## Lawliet (Apr 1, 2014)

I don't know what's funnier, the fact that it took you an hour to type 8 lines or you think I have no idea that Slenderman made a typo. You always debate on things that solely come from your head. You always drive people away for debating things that never took place in the actual Manga. What if? can he? You ask these type of questions as if they matter so much, when we know for a fact that these questions you're asking were never addressed in the Manga itself, and you make it sound like the answer matters so much when we already know the actual scenario in the Manga.

Yeah, have a great time.


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## Shanks (Apr 1, 2014)

I 'm not exactly sure  what you're talking about really.

1) I was at work, so got to juggle other shit happening around me. And it's a forum, so people can reply when ever they want, no?
2) What are you talking about Slender typo?
3) What the heck are you talking about the rest of the paragraph. This sub-debate is about comparing Akainu's free shot against WB (during Heart attack), vs.  WB's "free-shot" against Akainu from behind at the very end. These both happened int he manga.
On the other debate against Dofla, we're debate Rayliegh's level. All examples and arguments for an against are cannon.

The fact that I still reply to you logical and patiently is because I know you're a good guy and I believe I ain't that bad also. We just have different point of views (same with Slender and Starkiller). However, these days you have being acting really weird... going around picking little quotes here and there from my debates and went straight into an indirect personal attack. *Have I done something to offend you?*.


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## Magician (Apr 1, 2014)

Ohh shit.

It's getting heated up in here.


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## Slenderman (Apr 1, 2014)

It's alright bro, the debate is over already


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## trance (Apr 1, 2014)

Just had a response to Sabo's response all typed but was forcibly logged out.


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## Shanks (Apr 1, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Just had a response to Sabo's response all typed but was forcibly logged out.



Fuck it then, bro. Not like you or me will add anything new. I guarantee you 90% of what you wrote and if I respond to that will also be 90% repetition anyway.

Last poster isn't always correct and there's never any real winner in these TL;DR debate. We all said our points. Let's move on. It's Chapter day, today!!


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## IceColdLikeAokiji (Apr 5, 2014)

Aokiji wins low-mid diff.
Aokiji is a high-top tier, and none of these guys he's fighting aren't even top-tier.

The only 1 that could put up a fight against Aokiji is Doflamingo and that's a stretch.
The seats are basically fodder here, they will get 1-shotted.


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## Captain Altintop (Apr 6, 2014)

DD is low -  top tier, Aokiji is solid top tier.

Aokiji beats DD mid-high diff, adding the seats will cause him high diff, but nothing more.


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## hungrytrash (Apr 6, 2014)

Captain Altintop said:


> DD is low -  top tier, Aokiji is solid top tier.
> 
> Aokiji beats DD mid-high diff, adding the seats will cause him high diff, but nothing more.



I think we all pretty much agree that Aokiji would win. His logia abilities make the chairs too unable to help properly. What about against Fujitora though?


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## hungrytrash (May 12, 2014)

Bumping this because we've seen more of Pica. Resume thread as if Fujitora was the name in the title rather than Aokiji.


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## Extravlad (May 12, 2014)

9 pages for this thread?

There is actually some ppl who believe that Aokiji can lose this fight?


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