# DMS Kakashi Vs Admiral Kizaru



## Uchiha Maddy (Jan 1, 2021)

*-basic knowledge
-location: Seireitei*


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## Akira1993 (Jan 1, 2021)

Easy win for Kakashi.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Steven (Jan 1, 2021)

AdmiraL takes the L


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## Bobybobster (Jan 1, 2021)

doesn't kizaru blitz and kick his head off?
Or does kakashi start in susano?

Reactions: Ningen 1


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## Akira1993 (Jan 1, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> doesn't kizaru blitz and kick his head off?
> Or does kakashi start in susano?


DMS Kakashi is easily a top tier and get the scaling, therefore Kizaru can't even scratch him, no need any Kamui intangibility.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Bobybobster (Jan 1, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> DMS Kakashi is top tier and get the scaling, therefore Kizaru can't even scratch him, no need Kamui intangibility.


don't recall kakashi himself clashing with any top tier physically to warrant that, he only survived because of phasing. Which won't matter if he gets blitzed? IDK maybe there is some shit I missed/forgot.


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## Akira1993 (Jan 1, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> don't recall kakashi himself clashing with any top tier physically to warrant that, he only survived because of phasing. Which won't matter if he gets blitzed? IDK maybe there is some shit I missed/forgot.


Pretty sure he hurted Kaguya with his Raikiri and made her bleed.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 1, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> Pretty sure he hurted Kaguya with his Raikiri and made her bleed.


wasn't that some kamui raikiri shit?

I don't think kakashi himself had planet level dura, he has top tier speed and hax ofc

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Akira1993 (Jan 1, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> wasn't that some kamui raikiri shit?
> 
> I don't think kakashi himself had planet level dura, he has top tier speed and hax ofc


He phased a part of his body and let the jutsu hurt her and cut her in the shoulder, said jutsu was comparable to the black six path chidori of Sasuke.

It was literally a black raikiri.

He is small planet level comparable to Sasuke at least in that state which is a temporary boost anyway with six path chakra.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 1, 2021)

Well the wiki disagrees with you.  Maybe someone who reads naruto can fill in about kakashi's dura outside PS ?


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## Akira1993 (Jan 1, 2021)

Who is the Nardo expert in the OBD?


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## shade0180 (Jan 1, 2021)

it doesn't actually matter if he has that level of Dura or not.

He has auto phasing.

 Also his chances of winning is higher than Kizaru's chances of winning, As he has limited option on how to damage kakashi, Kakashi has more options on how he can defeat Kizaru compared to Kizaru's options..

Death, and knock out are the two main option both Character has access to but.

Kakashi has dimensional Bfr which can be used as a trap to basically drop kizaru to his dimension and lock him out. Dimensional wormhole that can snipe Kizaru's limbs/head,  Dimensional cuts using raikira and the shuriken version, Genjutsu, Sharigan Mind Control, Drowning him with vast amount of water which Kakashi has access to use. etc etc.


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## Steven (Jan 1, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


>


The fucker is all the time intang

Kizaru cant hit him


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## Bobybobster (Jan 1, 2021)

Acno said:


> The fucker is all the time intang
> 
> Kizaru cant hit him


so he is intang by default? 

Whatever you guys say lol


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## shade0180 (Jan 1, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> so he is intang by default?
> 
> Whatever you guys say lol


No he has a dimension phasing that automatically activates. He isn't intang by default.

 Kizaru ain't hitting him unless he bypasses that shit.


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## Akira1993 (Jan 1, 2021)

shade0180 said:


> No he has a dimension phasing that automatically activates. He isn't intang by default.
> 
> *Kizaru ain't hitting him unless he bypasses that shit.*


Which he can't.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 1, 2021)

shade0180 said:


> No he has a dimension phasing that automatically activates. He isn't intang by default.
> 
> Kizaru ain't hitting him unless he bypasses that shit.


but it still has to activate, even if it's automatic? 

Isn't it NLF to say it can activate in a timeframe much smaller than demonstrated?


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## shade0180 (Jan 1, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> but it still has to activate, even if it's automatic?
> 
> Isn't it NLF to say it can activate in a timeframe much smaller than demonstrated?


Relativistic is within the scope of Nardo verse speed.

Nothing here is NLF.

 Unless some stupid shit claims MFTL then that's where NLF plays. But they also need to prove that speed for Kizaru which doesn't really works here.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 1, 2021)

shade0180 said:


> Relativistic is within the scope of Nardo verse speed.
> 
> Nothing here is NLF.
> 
> Unless some stupid shit claims MFTL then that's where NLF plays. But they also need to prove that speed for Kizaru which doesn't really works here.


all I remember is nardo top-tiers being sub-rel, isn't kizaru accepted as LS here? 

I don't really read boruto, so if their speed was upgraded then fine


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## GregSteve (Jan 1, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> all I remember is nardo top-tiers being sub-rel, isn't kizaru accepted as LS here?
> 
> I don't really read boruto, so if their speed was upgraded then fine


Yea he is and advanced CoO is needed to keep up with him but Kakashi should be sub rel and Sharingan gives him small precog and he can one shot


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## Bobybobster (Jan 1, 2021)

GregSteve said:


> Yea he is and advanced CoO is needed to keep up with him but Kakashi should be sub rel and Sharingan gives him small precog and he can one shot


but is that really enough to overcome a speed gap that's enough to blitz? Kizaru can also one shot


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## shade0180 (Jan 1, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> but is that really enough to overcome a speed gap that's enough to blitz? Kizaru can also one shot


you do understand that relativistic is within the threshold of LS.

 Like sub-relativistic is between 1% to 99% of LS. the speed gap is practically non-existent.

It's like you guys think relativistic is really far from LS when relativistic is derived from LS.


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## Blade (Jan 1, 2021)

nardo top tiers are sub-rel

and kakashi gets that scale








point is

kizaru despite having faster reactions

he still can't hurt kakashi because of his hax

he is basically intangible in that state, thanks to obito's tech and can kamui kizaru, rather easily

1vs1

dms kakashi can solo one piece

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## Bobybobster (Jan 1, 2021)

shade0180 said:


> you do understand that relativistic is within the threshold of LS.
> 
> Like sub-relativistic is between 1% to 99% of LS. the speed gap is practically non-existent.
> 
> It's like you guys think relativistic is really far from LS when relativistic is derived from LS.


sub-rel is 1 to 10% so yh it's pretty far from LS   

I was never arguing about him getting blitzed if kak has relativistic reactions, but the only calc I remember places them at about mach 28k, which is more than 30x slower...

Why don't you actually tell me what their speed is?


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## Bobybobster (Jan 1, 2021)

Blade said:


> nardo top tiers are sub-rel
> 
> and kakashi gets that scale
> 
> ...


I mean that kind of goes back to the point of whether he is always intang or if he has to activate it?  If it's the latter then speed becomes relevant.

IDK enough about naruto to answer that.


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## Blade (Jan 1, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> I mean that kind of goes back to the point of whether he is always intang or if he has to activate it?  If it's the latter then speed becomes relevant.
> 
> IDK enough about naruto to answer that.




once he activates the dms tech, it's on auto pilot and he turns intangible 

it isn't rocket science


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## Bobybobster (Jan 1, 2021)

Blade said:


> once he activates the dms tech, it's on auto pilot and he turns intangible
> 
> it isn't rocket science


or he gets a kick to the head before he can activate it


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## Blade (Jan 1, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> or he gets a kick to the head before he can activate it




well

















that could be true

but

the opening poster already said that dms kakashi fights

so

kizaru gets kamui'd 

now

@El Hermano 's eos kizaru can obv onekick the nardo verse

Reactions: Funny 2


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## deltaniner (Jan 1, 2021)

Kamui gg


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## Kingdom Come (Jan 1, 2021)

Kakashi too hax

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 1, 2021)

Apparently, kizaru can't hurt kakashi.
And kakashi can't hurt kizaru.
Who tires out first?


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## GregSteve (Jan 1, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Apparently, kizaru can't hurt kakashi.
> And kakashi can't hurt kizaru.
> Who tires out first?


Kakashi can one shot Kizaru

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Bobybobster (Jan 2, 2021)

OBD lightspeed kakashi

Reactions: Funny 1


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## shade0180 (Jan 2, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> OBD lightspeed kakashi


Considering no one even claimed that.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Akira1993 (Jan 2, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> OBD lightspeed kakashi


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## Bobybobster (Jan 2, 2021)

??

I was just parroting what you guys are saying, apparently kakashi can now react to LS attacks. I guess I missed the upgrades?


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## GregSteve (Jan 2, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> ??
> 
> I was just parroting what you guys are saying, apparently kakashi can now react to LS attacks. I guess I missed the upgrades?


Dont have to be light speed to react to light speed relativistic is within the realm of reacting and tagging LS


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## Kaaant (Jan 2, 2021)

Doesn’t really make much sense that madara has an attack faster than Kaguya’s fastest attack, which seems to be the bone one.

whatever happened to the novel feat?


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 2, 2021)

GregSteve said:


> Dont have to be light speed to react to light speed relativistic is within the realm of reacting and tagging LS


despite being relativistic, he is still massively slower than kizaru.
he ain't tagging him if kizaru decides to focus on dodging.

Actually, if this was a mach 1 character going against a mach 30 character, we won't even be having this discussion.


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## Hardcore (Jan 2, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> despite being relativistic, he is still massively slower than kizaru.
> he ain't tagging him if kizaru decides to focus on dodging.
> 
> Actually, if this was a mach 1 character going against a mach 30 character, we won't even be having this discussion.



ye he has no attack with big aoe

so kizaru could keep dodging

but what's more likely is kizaru going for a kick then gets bfr'ed

plus kakashi has the option to use genjutsu or something to tag kizaru


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 2, 2021)

Hardcore said:


> ye he has no attack with big aoe
> 
> so kizaru could keep dodging
> 
> ...


I actually haven't read past juubito but doesn't kamui takes time to actually bfr anyone? Enough time for kizaru to escape. Also, CoO should handle genjutsu just fine.


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## GregSteve (Jan 2, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> I actually haven't read past juubito but doesn't kamui takes time to actually bfr anyone? Enough time for kizaru to escape. Also, CoO should handle genjutsu just fine.


Naruto who DMS Kakashi is on par with dodged a LS attack at close range so Kizaru isn't overwhelming him with his speed and Kamui didn't need charge time


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 2, 2021)

GregSteve said:


> Naruto who DMS Kakashi is on par with dodged a LS attack at close range so Kizaru isn't overwhelming him with his speed and Kamui didn't need charge time


You mean madara's attack which was blatantly contradicted by the DB?


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## GregSteve (Jan 2, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> You mean madara's attack which was blatantly contradicted by the DB?


I thought his Fang didn't contradict anything and was accepted? But even then they can still react and Kamui Kizaru


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 2, 2021)

GregSteve said:


> I thought his Fang didn't contradict anything and was accepted? But even then they can still react and Kamui Kizaru


-Lightspeed
-cannot be dodged
Pick one


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## Akira1993 (Jan 2, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> I actually haven't read past juubito but doesn't kamui *takes time to actually bfr anyone*? Enough time for kizaru to escape. Also, CoO should handle genjutsu just fine.


Not anymore after the Juubito point.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 2, 2021)

GregSteve said:


> Dont have to be light speed to react to light speed relativistic is within the realm of reacting and tagging LS


blade said they are sub-rel, now you are saying they are relativistic.

Can someone actually confirm what kakashi's reaction speed is? Wiki says hypersonic+   


If it's sub-rel he is getting blitzed and one-shot.
Relativistic? He can react.


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## JayK (Jan 2, 2021)

shade0180 said:


> He has auto phasing.


this

Kakashi wins


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## JayK (Jan 2, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> kakashi can't hurt kizaru.






Bobybobster said:


> Can someone actually confirm what kakashi's reaction speed is?


He gets the highest scaling Nardoverse has.

There is literally a screen in this thread which shows him hitting Kaguya from the front and warping an All Destroying Ash Bone faster than Sauce and Nardo can flinch.

Even with the massive speed gap, as soon as Kizaru enters CQC he gets the succ.

As for speed there were like 1000 threads at this point discussing Light Fang and the Particle Beam which both at least net Relativistic speeds but fuck all do I know if those got accepted.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 2, 2021)

you guys are confusing me, sub-rel? Relativistic? Make-up your minds.

For now I'm gonna go with the wiki, hypersonic+ kakashi gets yeeted into the stun


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## Kingdom Come (Jan 2, 2021)




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## shade0180 (Jan 2, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> you guys are confusing me, sub-rel? Relativistic? Make-up your minds.


You're being an idiot. Relastivistic is just an all term for anything that is related to lightspeed(in VS board). Seriously which include both Sub-rel and LS.

 Sub-rel is below lightspeed(It isn't limited to 10%) Anything in the boundary of 1% of lightspeed up to 99% of Lightspeed is in this category.. 

you being confuse has nothing to do with us. It is you being obtuse and not even trying to comprehend this shit when it is being shove in your face.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 2, 2021)

JayK said:


> He gets the highest scaling Nardoverse has.
> 
> There is literally a screen in this thread which shows him hitting Kaguya from the front and warping an All Destroying Ash Bone faster than Sauce and Nardo can flinch.
> 
> ...


can't hurt anyone you can't touch.
fastest calc puts him at mach 28k or something?
Light speed is mach ~881. that's more than 31 times faster.
just because someone is relativistic, doesn't mean he can fuck with people moving at the speed of light.
we're not talking about just twice or thrice of speed difference.


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## shade0180 (Jan 2, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> can't hurt anyone you can't touch.
> fastest calc puts him at mach 28k or something?
> Light speed is mach ~881. that's more than 31 times faster.
> just because someone is relativistic, doesn't mean he can fuck with people moving at the speed of light.
> we're not talking about just twice or thrice of speed difference.


DMS Kakashi doesn't actually need to touch or run to Kizaru.

He has access to range kamui which he can open anywhere in the vicinity.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 2, 2021)

shade0180 said:


> DMS Kakashi doesn't actually need to touch or run to Kizaru.
> 
> He has access to range kamui which he can open anywhere in the vicinity.


range?
aoe?
how long does it take to take effect?
and he still needs to mentally activate it right?


Akira1993 said:


> Not anymore after the Juubito point.


scans?


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## shade0180 (Jan 2, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> range?
> aoe?


We know it is large enough to cover multiple of the Juubi tails considering that's what he actually did in his first appearance.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 2, 2021)

shade0180 said:


> We know it is large enough to cover multiple of the Juubi tails considering that's what he actually did in his first appearance.



I don't


> I actually haven't read past juubito


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## shade0180 (Jan 2, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> I don't


Good for you don't bother reading it.

 the whole shit is a waste of time.

Considering how idiotically dumb the conclusion where Nardo and Sauce still fought at the end to just make it a draw.

And the fight to the draw is bullshit considering how much Nardo was actually holding back.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 2, 2021)

Couldn't kizaru just wait out kakashi?


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## Foxve (Jan 3, 2021)

He could but he wouldn't know that it's even an option.


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## Kroczilla (Jan 3, 2021)

Foxve said:


> He could but he wouldn't know that it's even an option.


Pretty sure COO haki allows you see the life force of your opponent. I reckon him seeing Kakashi's rapidly depleting chakra reserves will be all he needs to know he has that option.


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## shade0180 (Jan 3, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Pretty sure COO haki allows you see the life force of your opponent. I reckon him seeing Kakashi's rapidly depleting chakra reserves will be all he needs to know he has that option.


it actually isn't related to Kakashi's chakra reserve, It was based on when Obito's soul leaving.

 Which was why I said it was complete bullshit when it happened because it gave Obito an ability he shouldn't have.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Steven (Jan 3, 2021)

shade0180 said:


> Good for you don't bother reading it.
> 
> the whole shit is a waste of time.
> 
> ...


More like Kaguya was holding back after 2 chapters of washing away Naruto/Sasuke


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## shade0180 (Jan 3, 2021)

Acno said:


> More like Kaguya was holding back after 2 chapters of washing away Naruto/Sasuke


I'm talking about Nardo vs Sauce.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 3, 2021)

shade0180 said:


> You're being an idiot. Relastivistic is just an all term for anything that is related to lightspeed(in VS board). Seriously which include both Sub-rel and LS.
> 
> Sub-rel is below lightspeed(It isn't limited to 10%) Anything in the boundary of 1% of lightspeed up to 99% of Lightspeed is in this category..
> 
> you being confuse has nothing to do with us. It is you being obtuse and not even trying to comprehend this shit when it is being shove in your face.


oh okay, so kakashi is anywhere between 1% LS to 99% LS, got it. 

Why don't have a look at your own wiki sherlock? 

" It ranges between Mach 100 and Mach 8810 (2997924.6 m/s), till the beginning of sub-relativistic category. "
" Sub-Relativistic is a ‘catch all’ term that describes speeds that are not yet quite "
" A term for an object travelling close to light speed (but still below it). This is generally defined as anywhere from 10% light speed up to (but not including) light speed. "


Wake up, put the coffee down, and tell me his actual speed or don't respond at all because you are just wasting my time.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 3, 2021)

@Blade 

can you link the calc for this sub-rel shit so that this can finally be put to rest?


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## Kroczilla (Jan 3, 2021)

shade0180 said:


> it actually isn't related to Kakashi's chakra reserve, It was based on when Obito's soul leaving.


Oh yeah, forgot about that.


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## accountmaker (Jan 3, 2021)

Still think Kakashi should've kept the DMS, and had become Obito's jinchuriki or some shit


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## B Rabbit (Jan 3, 2021)

I have a serious hard time seeing Kakashi beating Kizaru.


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## GregSteve (Jan 3, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> blade said they are sub-rel, now you are saying they are relativistic.
> 
> Can someone actually confirm what kakashi's reaction speed is? Wiki says hypersonic+
> 
> ...


I didn't see Blades post he is sub rel @ZenithXAbyss idk why I thought we accepted Madara's fang for some reason but couldn't find anything on it my apologies but what does DMS Kakashi get Durability wise I dont Kizaru can hurt him even if does get if hes >= Juubito


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## B Rabbit (Jan 3, 2021)

I think Waka one time said a speed feat for Madara's LF wouldn't get you the same speed feats for Rayleigh's movement. So even if you did calc it it wouldn't match Rayleigh's.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 3, 2021)

GregSteve said:


> I didn't see Blades post he is sub rel @ZenithXAbyss idk why I thought we accepted Madara's fang for some reason but couldn't find anything on it my apologies but what does DMS Kakashi get Durability wise I dont Kizaru can hurt him even if does get if hes >= Juubito


He could force a draw at least.
How long does kakashi's "DMS" last?


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## Bobybobster (Jan 3, 2021)

GregSteve said:


> I didn't see Blades post he is sub rel @ZenithXAbyss idk why I thought we accepted Madara's fang for some reason but couldn't find anything on it my apologies but what does DMS Kakashi get Durability wise I dont Kizaru can hurt him even if does get if hes >= Juubito


It's true that kizaru cant hurt juubito, but you think kakashi outside susanoo gets that for defense? Anyway that shit's what I wanted to know on the first page lol

If he does get it then it's a bit overkill lol, blitz or not kizaru can't do anything. Otherwise he gets the sabaody sn treatment


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## El Hermano (Jan 3, 2021)

Can Kizaru potentially harm Kakashi's ability to warp by blinding him? I don't recall much of DMS Kakashi's Kamui capabilities and potential limitations. 

As for the speed debate: some just figured they're fine with slapping Naruto top-tiers with bare minimum relativistic but if I recall correctly some disagreed(among them some renowned members) and that debate never really reached a conclusion.

I could see Kizaru outlasting Kakashi via superior speed and precog and considering the fact that he should be equivalent to his peers(Sakazuki and Kuzan)who were able to fight for 10 days straight.


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## accountmaker (Jan 3, 2021)

El Hermano said:


> Can Kizaru potentially harm Kakashi's ability to warp by blinding him? I don't recall much of DMS Kakashi's Kamui capabilities and potential limitations.
> 
> As for the speed debate: some just figured they're fine with slapping Naruto top-tiers with bare minimum relativistic but if I recall correctly some disagreed(among them some renowned members) and that debate never really reached a conclusion.
> 
> I could see Kizaru outlasting Kakashi via superior speed and precog and considering the fact that he should be equivalent to his peers(Sakazuki and Kuzan)who were able to fight for 10 days straight.


I don't think many people in Naruto ever attempted to blind a dojoutsu user. Huh.


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## Foxve (Jan 3, 2021)

Pretty sure Susanoo protects against light and hypnosis.


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## OrlandoSky (Jan 3, 2021)

Question: why do we count Kizaru's DF as natural light? AFAIK we don't count Magic lasers or Laser Jutsu at LS. Unless he's channeling actual sunlight or photons shouldn't he still be in the MHS+ or whatever range OP characters are at without those upgrades?


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## Claudio Swiss (Jan 3, 2021)

OrlandoSky said:


> Question: why do we count Kizaru's DF as natural light? AFAIK we don't count Magic lasers or Laser Jutsu at LS. Unless he's channeling actual sunlight or photons shouldn't he still be in the MHS+ or whatever range OP characters are at without those upgrades?


There was thread where a recent guidebook basically confirm his stuff to be actual light


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## OrlandoSky (Jan 3, 2021)

Claudio Swiss said:


> There was thread where a recent guidebook basically confirm his stuff to be actual light


As in actual photons or LS was mentioned? If not that kind of feels like Naruto's databook referring to Kakuzu's raiton as lightning jutsu, like it's lightning as far as the element goes but it's not natural like Sasuke's kirin.


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## Claudio Swiss (Jan 3, 2021)

OrlandoSky said:


> As in actual photons or LS was mentioned? If not that kind of feels like Naruto's databook referring to Kakuzu's raiton as lightning jutsu, like it's lightning as far as the element goes but it's not natural like Sasuke's kirin.


@El Hermano could explain more on it

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Claudio Swiss (Jan 3, 2021)

@B Rabbit mind explaining?


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## GregSteve (Jan 3, 2021)

Claudio Swiss said:


> @El Hermano could explain more on it



It came from this


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## El Hermano (Jan 3, 2021)

OrlandoSky said:


> As in actual photons or LS was mentioned? If not that kind of feels like Naruto's databook referring to Kakuzu's raiton as lightning jutsu, like it's lightning as far as the element goes but it's not natural like Sasuke's kirin.


Kishi's DBs are unreliable and full of nonsense, just like his Light Fang statement which is contradicted by the source material("impossible to dodge")in the only instance it was used. Albeit, I did see people accepting this statement as true, but it's just unquantifiable regardless acccording to LazyWaka.

Kakuzu's lightning doesn't even began to compare to Sasuke's Kirin technique. Kirin is described to be traveling at the speed of lightning and yet again "impossible to evade". Sasuke had to create special conditions to pull that off to begin with and there's a big emphasis on its speed. I mean, he used it to take out freaking Itachi. It's pretty obvious your run-of-the-mill pure chakra lightning doesn't compare in any department, with an emphasis on the speed department.

Meanwhile, the DB info provided about Kizaru is actually consistent with the source material that states only proficient Observation Haki users can grasp his movement.

Regardless of Databooks: Kizaru's mirror was accepted as LS(which is where the mach 208k scaling comes from)apparently due to the nature of its behavior. He can also move as light WITHOUT said mirror. He did so when he arrived at the Marineford, when he hit Drake and even when intercepted Luffy twice during Marineford. The only instances where he used his mirror were against Apoo and the weaker Strawhats(where he was intercepted by Rayleigh). Here are said instances(in order):

_[Also very important to note: the SFX called "ZIP" is used to describe very fast movement but also used to specifically describe movement at the speed of light. In this context I think the answer is obivous. Link for reference: ]_


*Spoiler*: __ 




















I see no reason why his other light based abilities should be considered any different when there's a canonical statement approving they're indeed lightspeed and it's all consistent with the source material. I mean, the dude explicitly stated he turned into a "man of light":



His entire shtick is speed, his abilities are all light-based and he's literally made out of freaking light which also allows him to levitate.
He's got a heck of a lot more going to support him than stuff like Light Fang and Kakuzu's lightning.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 4, 2021)

If kizaru is real light, i don't know how enel is not real lightning.

MHS+ Skypeia Strawhats


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## Bobybobster (Jan 4, 2021)

So does anyone know kakashi's Dura outside susanoo?


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## shade0180 (Jan 4, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> So does anyone know kakashi's Dura outside susanoo?


nah kizaru is going to one shot him if any attack lands on him. It doesn't matter as auto phasing gives him the advantage.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 4, 2021)

shade0180 said:


> nah kizaru is going to one shot him if any attack lands on him. It doesn't matter as* auto phasing* gives him the advantage.


it's already established that there is a speed gap of more than 30x, does his auto-phasing have better reaction feats? Sounds like NLF.


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## Foxve (Jan 4, 2021)

In this match he starts out in the Susanoo with auto phasing already activated ( hence the *auto* ) . 

Speed gap isn't really a factor here. How many times does that need to be repeated?


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## Bobybobster (Jan 4, 2021)

Foxve said:


> In this match he starts out in the Susanoo with auto phasing already activated ( hence the *auto* ) .
> 
> Speed gap isn't really a factor here. How many times does that need to be repeated?


it's not specified he starts in susanoo, no one mentioned that in the OP.

So autophasing completely saves him from any speed gap? He can autophase against the flash too?

Kakashi along with whatever mechanic does the phasing for him simply have no feats of dealing with such a large speed gap.


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## shade0180 (Jan 4, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> So autophasing completely saves him from any speed gap? He can autophase against the flash too?


No type of dimensional phasing is going to fucking save you from the flash. Fuck even the best type of phasing can't save you from the flash which is Ghost type phasing, Considering there are accounts where flash literally pulled dead man out of a dimension where the flash isn't even inside off, and deadman is a literal ghost.

 Like dude seriously stop using characters you have no idea about.


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## Hardcore (Jan 4, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> it's not specified he starts in susanoo, no one mentioned that in the OP.
> 
> So autophasing completely saves him from any speed gap? He can autophase against the flash too?
> 
> Kakashi along with whatever mechanic does the phasing for him simply have no feats of dealing with such a large speed gap.



man the dude is intangible, it is clearly explained his body is basically in another dimension and only materializes when a part of him willingly touches something

it is not "autophasing" whatever that is

why is this thread even going on


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## Bobybobster (Jan 4, 2021)

shade0180 said:


> No type of dimensional phasing is going to fucking save you from the flash. Fuck even the best type of phasing can't save you from the flash which is Ghost type phasing, Considering there are accounts where flash literally pulled dead man out of a dimension where the flash isn't even inside off, and deadman is a literal ghost.
> 
> Like dude seriously stop using characters you have no idea about.


Holy shit, I brought up the flash just for his association with speed, rather than saying "can kakashi auto-phase against MFTL+ attacks", I wasn't talking about an actual fight   


But on a general note, this is the second time in this thread alone you've gone full sperg mode on me. I brushed it off last time, but now  I'm just going to ignore you, like i would Keishin. Just not worth the time.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 4, 2021)

Hardcore said:


> man the dude is intangible, it is clearly explained his body is basically in another dimension and only materializes when a part of him willingly touches something
> 
> it is not "autophasing" whatever that is
> 
> why is this thread even going on


I would assume kakashi's body starts in the same dimension as kizaru, rather than in kamui-land. Once again OP never makes any mention of him starting intangible or in susanoo.

Whilst I haven't seen any actual scans of what this "auto-phasing" is, blade mentioned it and a few others, so I went with it. 

The point of contention is, kizaru can one-shot kakashi. Kakashi needs to phase to avoid this. However, there is a speed gap of more than 30x, which is more than enough to speedblitz. Some people say "auto-phasing" can overcome this, but I just don't see it due to a lack of feats.


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## Akira1993 (Jan 4, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> I would assume kakashi's body starts in the same dimension as kizaru, rather than in kamui-land. Once again OP never makes any mention of him starting intangible or in susanoo.
> 
> Whilst I haven't seen any actual scans of what this "auto-phasing" is, blade mentioned it and a few others, so I went with it.
> 
> The point of contention is, kizaru can one-shot kakashi. Kakashi needs to phase to avoid this. However, there is a speed gap of more than 30x, which is more than enough to speedblitz. Some people say "auto-phasing" can overcome this, but I just don't see it due to a lack of feats.


Well that assumption was the problem because it is wrong.

They are saying that as long as Kakashi is into DMS six path mode, he is already intangible right from the start passively and only willingly becomes solid as he wishes.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Hardcore (Jan 4, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> I would assume kakashi's body starts in the same dimension as kizaru, rather than in kamui-land. Once again OP never makes any mention of him starting intangible or in susanoo.
> 
> Whilst I haven't seen any actual scans of what this "auto-phasing" is, blade mentioned it and a few others, so I went with it.
> 
> The point of contention is, kizaru can one-shot kakashi. Kakashi needs to phase to avoid this. However, there is a speed gap of more than 30x, which is more than enough to speedblitz. Some people say "auto-phasing" can overcome this, but I just don't see it due to a lack of feats.



why would it? he got his two eyes, his body already is in another dimension

you don't get this 'auto-phasing', he does not phase once an attack hits him, his body is always in the second dimension and he can materialize parts of his body at will, it is not related to activating susanoo..

he does not need 'to phase' to avoid it, he already is intangible and his body is in another dimension

iirc the weakness to this that he needs to materialize once every five minutes or to attack, that was clearly explained when obito had one of the two eyes

kakashi has both of them and has susanoo to cover those weaknesses + extra sage chakra that puts him on the level of being able to hurt kaguya

this is literally a stomp


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## Bobybobster (Jan 4, 2021)

Hardcore said:


> why would it? he got his two eyes, meaning his body already is in another dimension
> 
> you don't get this 'auto-phasing', he does not phase once an attack hits him, his body is always in the second dimension and he can materialize parts of his body at will, it is not related to activating susanoo..
> 
> ...


This is new. So he already starts the fight with his body in kamui-land? From what I gathered people were saying, he can make himself intangible automatically, not that he started intangible, shade also said he isn't intang by default (don't know how credible he is anymore).

Clearly there is some conflicting info here. Maybe you can post some scans to clear this confusion up?


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## Sloan (Jan 4, 2021)

El Hermano said:


> Kishi's DBs are unreliable and full of nonsense, just like his Light Fang statement which is contradicted by the source material("impossible to dodge")in the only instance it was used. Albeit, I did see people accepting this statement as true, but it's just unquantifiable regardless acccording to LazyWaka.
> 
> Kakuzu's lightning doesn't even began to compare to Sasuke's Kirin technique. Kirin is described to be traveling at the speed of lightning and yet again "impossible to evade". Sasuke had to create special conditions to pull that off to begin with and there's a big emphasis on its speed. I mean, he used it to take out freaking Itachi. It's pretty obvious your run-of-the-mill pure chakra lightning doesn't compare in any department, with an emphasis on the speed department.
> 
> ...


Isn’t Luffy, Apoo and Drake reacting to him?


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## shade0180 (Jan 4, 2021)

Sloan said:


> Isn’t Luffy, Apoo and Drake reacting to him?


only after he materialized his feet.


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## Sloan (Jan 4, 2021)

shade0180 said:


> only after he materialized his feet.


I guess that’s the window where Kakashi can react to him


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 4, 2021)

Foxve said:


> In this match he starts out in the Susanoo with auto phasing already activated ( hence the *auto* ) .
> 
> Speed gap isn't really a factor here. How many times does that need to be repeated?


It does, lol.
Do you think a mach 1 character could fight against a mach 30 character. Y/N?


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## Akira1993 (Jan 4, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> It does, lol.
> Do you think a mach 1 character could fight against a mach 30 character. Y/N?


If the match 1 start intang and stay that way

Why not?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Santoryu (Jan 4, 2021)

Not only is Kakashi significantly stronger, he's astronomically smarter (200+ IQ)
He pimp slaps this scrub

Reactions: Like 1


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 4, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> If the match 1 start intang and stay that way
> 
> Why not?


Let's not play dumb.
I'm talking about actually being fast enough to do anything.
Because reaction =/= movement.
Kizaru would probably barely register in his senses.


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## Akira1993 (Jan 4, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Let's not play dumb.
> I'm talking about actually being fast enough to do anything.
> Because reaction =/= movement.
> *Kizaru would probably barely register in his senses.*


That remains to be proven.

tho, if he is intang, he doesn't need to register him with his senses as the latter can't touch him anyway.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 4, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> That remains to be proven.
> 
> tho, if he is intang, he doesn't need to register him with his senses as the latter can't touch him anyway.


What remains to be proven?
He is 31 times faster at bare minimum.
@10 meters, standard obd distance, 10* faster is enough to blitz (or at least, used to)

1) kizaru can't touch him, that's great.
How long does DMS last? A day?, a week?, a month?, a year? Because last I've heard, not every match has to end on winning and losing.
In any case, if Kakashi can't maintain it for more than a day then he get's the L.


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## Akira1993 (Jan 4, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> What remains to be proven?
> He is 31 times faster at bare minimum.
> @10 meters, standard obd distance, 10* faster is enough to blitz (or at least, used to)
> 
> ...


He can maintain it as long as Obito spirit allows it, meaning until he defeat his enemy with it.

Kakashi has also a lot of tools to take him down like mind hax which could happen as Kizaru will eventually slow down and stop attacking (like stationary looking at him) once he realizes that he can't even touch him


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## Bobybobster (Jan 4, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> What remains to be proven?
> He is 31 times faster at bare minimum.
> @10 meters, standard obd distance, 10* faster is enough to blitz (or at least, used to)
> 
> ...


they can't even agree if kakashi starts intang, or if he has "auto-phasing" or if he starts in susanoo or if he is sub-rel/rel. This thread is a mess.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 4, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> He can maintain it as long as Obito spirit allows it, meaning until he defeat his enemy with it.
> 
> Kakashi has also a lot of tools to take him down like mind hax which could happen as Kizaru will eventually slow down and stop attacking (like stationary looking at him) once he realizes that he can't even touch him


Kuzan could fight non stop for weeks, stamina isn't a problem for Kizaru.


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## Akira1993 (Jan 4, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Kuzan could fight non stop for weeks, stamina isn't a problem for Kizaru.


I wasn't alluding to that, I was saying that he will not attack like a madman non stop like you are imagining.

He has a brain, he will eventually stop his track and try to look at him, wondering why he can't damage him at all.

At that moment when he is stationary and merely looking at him, Kakashi can have a window of opportunity to strike a genjutsu.

He doesn't have full intel on him anyway and Kizaru by nature is pretty carefree.

Remember Apoo and his music hax that he allowed to hit him?


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 4, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> I wasn't alluding to that, I was saying that he will not attack like a madman non stop like you are imagining.


I'm not even saying that.
Kizaru is intelligent, a few attacks not connecting should be enough.
If he decides to conserve his energy for dodging then he can fight for much longer than kuzan's feat.
Actually, I'm more interested in how Kakashi is going to last.
Considering he has shit stamina throughout the show. 


Akira1993 said:


> He has a brain, he will eventually stop his track and try to look at him, wondering why he can't damage him at all.
> 
> At that moment when he is stationary and merely looking at him, Kakashi can have a window of opportunity to strike a genjutsu.
> 
> He doesn't have full intel on him anyway and Kizaru by nature is pretty carefree.


Good thing he has precog


Akira1993 said:


> Remember Apoo and his music hax that he allowed to hit him?


PIS/CIS


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## Akira1993 (Jan 4, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Good thing he has precog
> 
> PIS/CIS


Standard observation Haki can't show much dude, merely an instant glance, he wouldn't grasp anything substantial with it, just see himself immobile.

You have to prove that he has Future Sight which is the real deal and even with that, it isn't guaranteed that you can understand what is going on because you have to interpret it with your own intellect

remember Katakuri despite future sight and seeing Pudding collapsing couldn't grasp the real reason why she did collapse.

Not PIS/CIS, nice try, that is literally the character entire personality, he always let himself open because he trust too much his devil fruit invulnerability


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## Akira1993 (Jan 4, 2021)

>Kizaru is intelligent

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Steven (Jan 4, 2021)

Fucking old ass Ray was able to fought Lizaru

Kakashi trashes this fodder and the whole OP Verse

Reactions: Like 1


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 4, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> Not PIS/CIS, nice try, that is literally the character entire personality, he always let himself open because he trusts too much his devil fruit invulnerability


Not what?




> Standard observation Haki can't show much dude, merely an instant glance, he wouldn't grasp anything substantial with it, just see himself immobile.


That's great, a second for kizaru is a year for kakashi. He has plenty of time to know what's up.


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## Akira1993 (Jan 4, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Not what?


He is always like that, it was even highlighted in the Z movie or whatever, that he has a bad habit to be carefree in battle and trusting his Devil fruit too much.

That bad habit is enough to let himself open for only a short moment which is what Kakashi need to win with a genjutsu, just a little window of opportunity with standing there intangible.

Trying to convince yourself that Kizaru is some genius that will keep his guard on at all time is a lie and you know it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Akira1993 (Jan 4, 2021)

Like seriously, it is hard to imagine Kizaru nonchalantly looking at Kakashi's face?

Without any intel, all flights literally has those normal instance.

It is natural, watching how the guy that you kill look like.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 4, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> He is always like that, it was even highlighted in the Z movie or whatever, that he has a bad habit to be carefree in battle and trusting his Devil fruit too much.
> 
> That bad habit is enough to let himself open for only a short moment which is what Kakashi need to win with a genjutsu, just a little window of opportunity with standing there intangible.
> 
> Trying to convince yourself that Kizaru is some genius that will keep his guard on at all time is a lie and you know it.


You just explained what CIS is.


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## Akira1993 (Jan 4, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> You just explained what CIS is.


I get from CIS is when a character do something unusual stupid that is outside of common sense.

Kizaru is legit stupid and below average intelligence, that is his character personality archetype.

Dude despite being an Admiral didn't know the basic use of a Den den mushi.

He is also slow in the head.

Nonetheless, like I said, whether you are smart or stupid, the mere natural reaction at looking at your opponent face, everyone does it.

The natural curiosity at wanting to look at your opponent appearance that you are about to kill.

Are you saying that he will not even do that despite having zero intel on Kakashi?


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## El Hermano (Jan 4, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> I get from CIS is when a character do something unusual stupid that is outside of common sense.
> 
> Kizaru is legit stupid and below average intelligence, that is his character personality archetype.
> 
> ...


Kizaru is just a laid back, chill dude who doesn't give much of a fuck. He definitely doesn't have below average intelligence. If anything, his portrait as a child shows him to be(or at least have been)a book worm and a good student who appears to like studying.

Also, Kizaru is Vegapunk. Mark my words.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 4, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> I get from CIS is when a character do something unusual stupid that is outside of common sense.


No


Akira1993 said:


> Nonetheless, like I said, whether you are smart or stupid, the mere natural reaction at looking at your opponent face, everyone does it.
> 
> The natural curiosity at wanting to look at your opponent appearance that you are about to kill.
> 
> Are you saying that he will not even do that despite having zero intel on Kakashi?


Are you saying that you have to specifically stop doing something in the middle of the fight just to take a look at your opponent because of curiosity? because that's not how it works.
Eitherway, their sense of the passage of time isn't even on the same degree.
A "moment" for kizaru isn't a "moment" for kakashi.


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## Ichigo Otoko (Jan 4, 2021)

Kakashi wins with ease. The dude can't be touched and he is faster.


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## Ichigo Otoko (Jan 4, 2021)

He is though. He blitzed Kaguya.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 5, 2021)

Ichigo Otoko said:


> He is though. He blitzed Kaguya.


And how fast is kaguya?


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## Ichigo Otoko (Jan 5, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> And how fast is kaguya?


very fast.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 5, 2021)

Ichigo Otoko said:


> very fast.


If you mean, comparable to a snail compared to Kizaru, then you'd be right.


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## Akira1993 (Jan 5, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> No
> 
> Are you saying that you have to specifically stop doing something in the middle of the fight just to take a look at your opponent because of curiosity? because that's not how it works.
> Eitherway, their sense of the passage of time isn't even on the same degree.
> A "moment" for kizaru isn't a "moment" for kakashi.


It is if you know how common sense works. Irrevelant as Kakashi isn't even there to begin with, so yeah he will for sure stop and look at him once he realize that he is merely destroying the enviromnent around him.


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## Linvel (Jan 5, 2021)

Kakashi gets blitzed. He has to activate the phasing.  Just because his DMS is activated doesn’t mean he is actively phasing at that moment. Just means he doesn’t have to first activate his MS to activate the phasing. Same with Susanoo for example just because the eyes are activated doesn’t mean that Susanoo is already activated.

Only thing saving Kakashi if it turns out he is close enough to Kizaru in the speed department to actually react. But Sub-Rel shouldn’t be able to react to LS.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 5, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> It is if you know how common sense works. Irrevelant as Kakashi isn't even there to begin with, so yeah he will for sure stop and look at him once he realize that he is merely destroying the enviromnent around him.


Yeah, no.
Again, Even if he did stop, it wouldn't matter as they aren't even operating at the same passage of time. One second for kizaru are days for kakashi, which _*you aren't getting*_ since yesterday.
Even if kakashi decides to use range or melee kamui it wouldn't tag someone as fast as kizaru.


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## Hardcore (Jan 5, 2021)

man this thread is literally an example of every cancerdome thread back in 2012

3 pages to argue how something works when you can just skim through 3 quick chaps that are there just to explain it

just go to chaps 595-597, can't believe i went there to bring scans

his body exists in another place, he materializes the parts to attack and suck objects in that's how this intangibility works

it does not require 'activation', in fact kizaru is the one who needs to 'activate' his df if anything 

he needs to activate his susanoo- yes

and since when does precog negate mindrape, i actually remember that argument.. also from 2012

Reactions: Agree 1 | MAXIMUM 1


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 5, 2021)

Hardcore said:


> man this thread is literally an example of every cancerdome thread back in 2012
> 
> 3 pages to argue how something works when you can just skim through 3 quick chaps that are there just to explain it
> 
> ...


That's when I was last active, Core.


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## Akira1993 (Jan 5, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Yeah, no.
> Again, Even if he did stop, it wouldn't matter as they aren't even operating at the same passage of time. One second for kizaru are days for kakashi, which _*you aren't getting*_ since yesterday.
> Even if kakashi decides to use range or melee kamui it wouldn't tag someone as fast as kizaru.


Days? based on?


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## Hardcore (Jan 5, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> That's when I was last active, Core.



lolzenath 

you were last active at the time when bullets >> nardoverse

don't blame you


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 5, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> Days? based on?


Look up time dillation


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## shade0180 (Jan 5, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> Days? based on?


 lol wrong answer.

anyway the difference is base on perception of time.


Basically 1 second for a normal person would feel like 30 seconds for a guy who is 30x faster than a normal person or someshit.

It isn't that straight forward but that's the guise of it.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 5, 2021)

Hardcore said:


> lolzenath
> 
> you were last active at the time when bullets >> nardoverse
> 
> don't blame you


You can't tell me old man with a shotgun wouldn't solo nardoverse.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Akira1993 (Jan 5, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Look up time dillation


The difference in speed isn't that astronomical dude.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 5, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> The difference in speed isn't that astronomical dude.


Dafuq do you mean?
31* _is_ astronomical.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 5, 2021)

There are plenty of samples in fiction anyway.


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## Akira1993 (Jan 5, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Dafuq do you mean?
> 31* _is_ astronomical.


It is irrelevant since as soon as he looks at his eyes, he is already inside his genjutsu as it is an instant.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 5, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> It is irrelevant since as soon as he looks at his eyes, he is already inside his genjutsu as it is an instant.


1) Mangekyo Genjutsu isn't instant and Passive, Kakashi still needs to activate it. Or does anyone looking at his eye just foams at the mouth and drop dead?


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## Akira1993 (Jan 5, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> 1) Mangekyo Genjutsu isn't instant and Passive, Kakashi still needs to activate it. Or does anyone looking at his eye just foams at the mouth and drop dead?


He is already in DMS mode in this match.

No? He just put them into sleep or mind control them for weeks. (as Obito showcased with the two jonins of Danzo)

Kakashi genjutsu prowess rival that of Obito as they fought a battle of genjutsu in Kamui dimension and it was a draw.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 5, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> He is already in DMS mode in this match.
> 
> No? He just put them into sleep or mind control them for weeks. (as Obito showcased with the two jonins of Danzo)
> 
> Kakashi genjutsu prowess rival that of Obito as they fought a battle of genjutsu in Kamui dimension and it was a draw.


So?
I'm pretty sure he still needs to actually think of using genjutsu on anyone.
Eye contact is just one of the pre requisites for it to work.
Which he won't be able to do because he'll get utterly blitzed the moment the fight starts.
Can't be called eye contact if only one side is capable of looking at another's eye. It's supposed to be mutual.


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## Akira1993 (Jan 5, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> So?
> I'm pretty sure he still needs to actually think of using genjutsu on anyone.
> Eye contact is just one of the pre requisites for it to work.
> Which he won't be able to do because he'll get utterly blitzed the moment the fight starts.


That is why he will prepare it in his eyes and wait that Kizaru look at it "by chance" during the match.

Basically a prepared trap, there is no blitz here as he isn't even there in the first place anyway.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 5, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> That is why he will prepare it in his eyes and wait that Kizaru look at it "by chance" during the match.
> 
> Basically a prepared trap, there is no blitz here as he isn't even there in the first place anyway.


Again, it is not eye contact if only one person is looking at another's eye. Kakashi won't be able to pinpoint where kizaru is going to be, much less be able to make contact with his eyes.


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## Akira1993 (Jan 5, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Again, it is not eye contact if only one person is looking at another's eye. Kakashi won't be able to pinpoint where kizaru is going to be, much less be able to make contact with his eyes.


Like I said, he doesn't need to, all he need he stand there like a status and prepare the genjutsu in his eyes, all it takes is Kizaru looking at the eyes and he is inside of the genjutsu in an instant as the information your eyes see travel that fast.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 5, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> Like I said, he doesn't need to, all he need he stand there like a status and prepare the genjutsu in his eyes, all it takes is Kizaru looking at the eyes and he is inside of the genjutsu in an instant as the information your eyes see travel that fast.


I'm pretty sure the pre requisite of Mangekyo is *eye contact.*


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## Linvel (Jan 5, 2021)

Hardcore said:


> man this thread is literally an example of every cancerdome thread back in 2012
> 
> 3 pages to argue how something works when you can just skim through 3 quick chaps that are there just to explain it
> 
> ...


That makes no sense. 
His body parts or his entire body goes into the Kamui dimension when he decides to do it, they don’t automatically exist there. Other wise there wouldn’t be a time limit as to how long he can slip through things. 

The way you are saying his ability works is that he turns the phasing off not actually turning it on. Which I don’t remember it ever being implied that way.


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## Linvel (Jan 5, 2021)

Linvel said:


> That makes no sense.
> His body parts or his entire body goes into the Kamui dimension when he decides to do it, they don’t automatically exist there. Other wise there wouldn’t be a time limit as to how long he can slip through things. Like having an automatic ability that can only work for 5 minutes straight seems kinda backwards.
> 
> The way you are saying his ability works is that he turns the phasing off not actually turning it on. Which I don’t remember it ever being implied that way.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 5, 2021)

Linvel said:


> That makes no sense.
> His body parts or his entire body goes into the Kamui dimension when he decides to do it, they don’t automatically exist there. Other wise there wouldn’t be a time limit as to how long he can slip through things.
> 
> The way you are saying his ability works is that he turns the phasing off not actually turning it on. Which I don’t remember it ever being implied that way.



*Spoiler*: __ 










I guess OBD kakashi follows a different canon


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 5, 2021)

> Obito Uchiha​ awakened his Mangekyō Sharingan after the death of  during the ; Obito himself only had his right eye at the time, but the event caused his Mangekyō to simultaneously awaken in , who wielded Obito's left eye. Both eyes wield , able to teleport targets to and from , though in different manners. *The right eye is able to use close-range Kamui, teleporting the user and/or those they're in contact with. By teleporting only parts of their body there, they can in effect seamlessly pass through other matter.* The left eye is able to use long-range Kamui, creating a barrier around a target that teleports them, also able to produce an attraction force to draw other targets close enough in. The left eye can also target the user themselves for complete teleporting. During the , it was discovered that each eye is impervious to the others' Kamui.



Hmm.

Looks like he is still manually casting his right eye kamui to phase through things instead of passively existing in the other plane.

Looks like him getting blitzed is the most likely scenario.


Again, haven't read the mango.
If there are scans that contradict this then feel free to post it.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 5, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Hmm.
> 
> Looks like he is still manually casting his right eye kamui to phase through things instead of passively existing in the other plane.
> 
> ...


my CoO told me this on literally the first page


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## Hardcore (Jan 5, 2021)

it's kinda contradicting in its every explanation, it was explained twice differently in these 3 chapters

but

i remember sauce catching by surprise with amaterasu or something once, so i guess he needs to use it

don't get the point here tho

it's the same like saying kizaru needs to activate his df


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 5, 2021)

Hardcore said:


> it's kinda contradicting in its every explanation, it was explained twice differently in these 3 chapters
> 
> but
> 
> ...


Kizaru still has LS reactions regardless.
With how instantaneous his transformation is, it's going to be moot.


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## ACE NITRO (Jan 5, 2021)

The phasing part of the kamui actually activates automatically whenever the user is in danger that was how obito survived being crushed by a rock when he still had the normal sharingan Madara explained it, can't remember the chapter tho. Kakashi wins tho kizaru has no answer to genjustu which most of the regular ones require no eye contact


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## accountmaker (Jan 6, 2021)

ACE NITRO said:


> The phasing part of the kamui actually activates automatically whenever the user is in danger that was how obito survived being crushed by a rock when he still had the normal sharingan Madara explained it, can't remember the chapter tho. Kakashi wins tho kizaru has no answer to genjustu which most of the regular ones require no eye contact


The fuck, no he didn't. His body was crushed and Madara healed him. Obito gained the mangekyo, and by extension, Kamui, at the same time as Kakashi when he saw Rin die.


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## ACE NITRO (Jan 6, 2021)

accountmaker said:


> The fuck, no he didn't. His body was crushed and Madara healed him. Obito gained the mangekyo, and by extension, Kamui, at the same time as Kakashi when he saw Rin die.



Madara said that it was as if his body phased through the boulder implying that his kamui saved his life


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 6, 2021)

ACE NITRO said:


> Madara said that it was as if his body phased through the boulder implying that his kamui saved his life


See how dumb kishi is?
How can you pass through objects and still get crushed?


Eitherway, that doesn't really imply automatic activation. Him subconsciously activating right eye kamui as the boulders fell is just as plausible.


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## accountmaker (Jan 6, 2021)

That still makes no fucking sense


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 6, 2021)

accountmaker said:


> That still makes no fucking sense


I can now see why he always contradicts himself on nardo DB's.


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## Sherlōck (Jan 6, 2021)

The fight doesn't even take 1 second. 

Kizaru destroys Kakashi.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## ACE NITRO (Jan 6, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> See how dumb kishi is?
> How can you pass through objects and still get crushed?
> 
> 
> Eitherway, that doesn't really imply automatic activation. Him subconsciously activating right eye kamui as the boulders fell is just as plausible.


Except he didn't have his mangekyo sharingan and he had no idea of the kamui which makes it impossible for him to subconsciously activate the technique.
Seriously the only time obito has been hit when using kamui was against minato and he was actively trying to keep himself solid in order to warp minato and when konan abused the five minutes limit. He has never been hit when using the kamui even when you attack his blind spot.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 6, 2021)

ACE NITRO said:


> Except he didn't have his mangekyo sharingan


How would he phase without mangekyo then?


ACE NITRO said:


> andnd *he had no idea of the kamui* *which makes it impossible for him to subconsciously activate the technique.*


Not the first time something like that happened in Fiction.
Naruto activating KN0 against Haku.
Koby activating Kenbunshoku Haki in the war.
Etc.
Is this your first read?

Eitherway, he has no idea what kamui is, yet able to activate it against the mist ninja's here.



ACE NITRO said:


> Seriously the only time obito has been hit when using kamui was against minato and he was actively trying to keep himself solid in order to warp minato and when konan abused the five minutes limit. He has never been hit when using the kamui even when you attack his blind spot.



I'm pretty sure he got burned by Amaterasu when he tried to fuck with Sauce.


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## Hardcore (Jan 6, 2021)

even if kizaru somehow gets off that first kick, it's not really finishing kakashi tbh

dms kakashi in addition to having intangibility he also has sage power which is counted god-tier in the nardoverse, that made him a threat to someone like kaguya

well not really a threat he just injured her but still you get my point


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 6, 2021)

Hardcore said:


> even if kizaru somehow gets off that first kick, it's not really finishing kakashi tbh
> 
> dms kakashi in addition to having intangibility he also has sage power which is counted god-tier in the nardoverse, that made him a threat to someone like kaguya


How does that affect his dura outside of PS though?
He only gained chakra/energy source to use techniques he wouldn't be able to use otherwise.

I mean, Krillin would've killed frieza if his disc connected.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Hardcore (Jan 7, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> How does that affect his dura outside of PS though?
> He only gained chakra/energy source to use techniques he wouldn't be able to use otherwise.
> 
> I mean, Krillin would've killed frieza if his disc connected.



and then krillin almost got killed by a cop 

not really sure but those who got sage power in the verse all got a tremendous power boost

like how nardo and sauce received it in that arc, hashirama and madara before that iirc, all of those have a connection to that power

kakashi received it temporarily for plot reasons

imo in that version, outside ps he could scale to alive madara who survived smacks from 9 bijuus

tho i'm also not sure, i'm saying that because he was a threat in the final fight in the verse, and also received sage powers

plus dms kakashi is definitely >> that version of madara


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## Bobybobster (Jan 7, 2021)

Muh sage chakra, the level of reach here lol

Kakashi gets his head kicked off or a laser through his skull.


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## Hardcore (Jan 7, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> Muh sage chakra, the level of reach here lol
> 
> Kakashi gets his head kicked off or a laser through his skull.



this is why the cancerdome was bad, people who did not even read one of the mangas just desperate with nothing to offer

and this thread reaching 6 pages when it should have ended at the first one or two pages

really have nothing more to say


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## Bobybobster (Jan 7, 2021)

Hardcore said:


> this is why the cancerdome was bad, *people who did not even read one of the mangas* just desperate with nothing to offer
> 
> and this thread reaching 6 pages when it should have ended at the first one or two pages
> 
> really have nothing more to say


 "muh permanent intang kakashi" 

Thread already ended on the 4th comment, nothing changed since then lol


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## Sherlōck (Jan 7, 2021)

Hardcore said:


> even if kizaru somehow gets off that first kick, it's not really finishing kakashi tbh
> 
> dms kakashi in addition to having intangibility he also has sage power which is counted god-tier in the nardoverse, that made him a threat to someone like kaguya
> 
> well not really a threat he just injured her but still you get my point



I don't.

You started by saying his power was a threat end at the end said it isn't a threat.


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## Hardcore (Jan 7, 2021)

Sherlōck said:


> I don't.
> 
> You started by saying his power was a threat end at the end said it isn't a threat.



he's not a threat to her

nobody is in the nardoverse

the only way she could be taken down is by naruto and sauce sealing her simultaneously 

that dms version of kakashi was a threat in a way he could stand up to her and injure her

 tbh that version of kakashi has a chance of taking down anyone in the verse except kaguya

as i said, he temporarily received both eyes from obito + sage powers that put him on that level


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## Sherlōck (Jan 7, 2021)

Hardcore said:


> he's not a threat to her
> 
> tbh that version of kakashi has a chance of taking down anyone in the verse except kaguya



So..... not a threat?? Got it.


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## Hardcore (Jan 7, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> "muh permanent intang kakashi"
> 
> Thread already ended on the 4th comment, nothing changed since then lol



nah you just have no idea what you're talking about because you probably haven't even read any of the two mangas

let me once again walk you through it

your argument here is that kizaru will 'activate' his DF, get to kakashi, _materialize _and then kick his head of and dms kakashi will not be able to 'activate' his dms which is already there from the OP 

what i'm telling you is that _even if_ what you're saying is ''right' and it' not, it's dumb

kizaru is not finishing this with one kick, that version of kakashi easily at least scales to alive madara who could survive many blows from the bijuus



just hold your L and take it as a lesson next time at least know a little bit of what you're talking about before wasting our time and embarrassing yourself


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## Sloan (Jan 7, 2021)

If Kakashi's mental reaction speed is at least higher than Apoo, Drake and Luffy on Sabaody than he should be able to react and Kamui Warp Kizaru, as they all could partially mentally react to Kizaru right before he kicked them all.  He just needs a mental reaction since that's all that's needed for a Kamui warp, doesn't have to physically move.  If Kizaru had full knowledge he'd most likely not attempt to hit him from the front and blind side him here, but he apparently has "basic knowledge" so he probably wouldn't imo.


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## Bobybobster (Jan 7, 2021)

Hardcore said:


> nah you just have no idea what you're talking about because you probably haven't even read any of the two mangas
> 
> let me once again walk you through it
> 
> ...


My man out here still thinks kakashi is intag by default just because his dms is active. Kizaru negs this fodder with an LS laser beam lol

You already proved you've got no clue how kakashi's powers work.

And now you are claiming he has the same durability as alive madara because muh sage chakra,  why stop there let's just give him all of naruto's stats.  

FAKE NEWS andy lol


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## Hardcore (Jan 7, 2021)

Bobybobster said:


> My man out here still thinks kakashi is intag by default just because his dms is active. Kizaru negs this fodder with an LS laser beam lol
> 
> You already proved you've got no clue how kakashi's powers work.
> 
> ...


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 7, 2021)

> your argument here is that kizaru will 'activate' his DF, get to kakashi, _materialize _and then kick his head of and dms kakashi will not be able to 'activate' his dms which is already there from the OP


Actually, does kizaru actually even need to activate his df? That seems to be instant. And he could just fire beams of light. Eitherway, Kizaru is actually fast enough to do all that, and then some. @ 10 meters, 10* speed is enough to blitz, kizaru is 31 times faster than kakashi.

Also from what we know, dms doesn't really have any bearing on his phasing capabilities. So it all depends on if he can survive a bunch of kicks and laser beams before he can kamui his self to the other side.



> kizaru is not finishing this with one kick, that version of kakashi easily at least scales to alive madara who could survive many blows from the bijuus


This is conjecture. Vast chakra doesn't result to an increase in durability. Also, aren't bijuu tail swipes just city level or something? Definitely piss poor compared to kizaru.



> If Kakashi's mental reaction speed is at least higher than Apoo, Drake and Luffy on Sabaody


Lol


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## Bobybobster (Jan 7, 2021)

Hardcore said:


>


  ============================================================
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 ============================================================ 
 ============================================================ 
  ============================================================
 ============================================================ 
============================================================  
============================== ======================== 
 ======================== ==================
 ================= =============
 ===== =================== 
==
=
============= 
 =========================

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Bobybobster (Jan 7, 2021)

man that shit took way longer than I expected, most thoughtful post in this thread by far   


*Spoiler*: __ 



@Masterblack06  threads done sarge


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## Hardcore (Jan 7, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Actually, does kizaru actually even need to activate his df? That seems to be instant. And he could just fire beams of light. Eitherway, Kizaru is actually fast enough to do all that, and then some. @ 10 meters, 10* speed is enough to blitz, kizaru is 31 times faster than kakashi.
> 
> Also from what we know, dms doesn't really have any bearing on his phasing capabilities. So it all depends on if he can survive a bunch of kicks and laser beams before he can kamui his self to the other side.
> 
> ...



to my knowledge, it is exactly like the case of the case of dms you're making it to be, he needs to 'use' it yes

not sure, we've seen it once and kaguya's attack went through the susanoo and phased through him, tho logically it should work the same it did for obito, automatic once the jutsu is 'used'

and actually pretty much it is, chakra = power in the nardoverse, people with high amount of chakra are the ones with the highest stats, there are very little exceptions if any

there's a reason why the bijuus have the highest durabilities and people like the raikage with high level of chakras durable

in the nardoverse, those counted as god-tiers are mainly juubi hosts and those who received power directly from the sage, those chars have the highest stats

dms kakashi received power from the sage, stood up to kaguya, and would shit all over alive madara, so the scaling is more than reasonable tbh

i don't know the exact power of the bijuu strikes, but madara took several of them even before the tail swipes, i'm not up to date with the calcs but the kyuubi was there and he should be highest (the best feat i remember is breaking out of ct and not sure where it's at)

point is yes, he should be able to survive a few blows if he needs to, the supernova did


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## Hardcore (Jan 7, 2021)

this is just too early for kizaru

not until he fights with the other top-tiers and we see feats better than those against the supernova

maybe in 200 chapters

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 7, 2021)

> to my knowledge, it is exactly like the case of the case of dms you're making it to be, he needs to 'use' it yes


Kizaru is going to be attacking light years ahead of kakashi. The reality is Kizaru should be able to attack multiple times before Kakashi can even comprehend what's going on.



> not sure, we've seen it once and kaguya's attack went through the susanoo and phased through him, tho logically it should work the same it did for obito, automatic once the jutsu is 'used'


Near Instantaneous, not automatic.
If the attack is too fast for him, then he can't kamui himself to the other side. (Which I'm pretty sure we've already agreen upon on the previous page.)



> and actually pretty much it is, chakra = power in the nardoverse, people with high amount of chakra are the ones with the highest stats, there are very little exceptions if any


Kid nardo has enormous chakra reserves (which actually is a plot point in P1), that didn't really help him much. People do have techniques that make them more durable than others. Kyuubi cloak, PS, what Sakura does when she punches anyone, etc. Really, The only anomalies i can think of is Raikage, and even then I'm pretty sure he is not surviving against a bijuu bomb. Fish guy (who also has massive reserves of chakra) also got punted by Gai.



> i don't know the exact power of the bijuu strikes, but madara took several of them even before the tail swipes, i'm not up to date with the calcs but the kyuubi was there and he should be highest (the best feat i remember is breaking out of ct and not sure where it's at)


Hachibi's were calced in the megaton range, iirc.



> point is yes, he should be able to survive a few blows if he needs to, the supernova did


We all know that's PIS, Core.


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## El Hermano (Jan 7, 2021)

What is this "he has to activate his DF and materialize" bullshit?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Hardcore (Jan 7, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Near Instantaneous, not automatic.
> If the attack is too fast for him, then he can't kamui himself to the other side. (Which I'm pretty sure we've already agreen upon on the previous page.)
> 
> 
> ...



i'm convinced that he needs to 'use' his dms technique which is just a mental reaction, kakashi in that version basically uses it and activates susanoo

your argument is kizaru has much faster reactions and can end it before he can use it and what i'm telling you kakashi could reasonably survive a few blows if that happens

from what we've seen so far from kizaru and to what kakashi can scale to and i'm not aware of any numbers

kid nardo did not really have enormous reserves no

the cloaks and PS are all chakra forms so my point exactly, not sure what you mean about sakura

again, not sure about the calc numbers, just pointing out the feats here

are kyuubi strikes just at city-level?




El Hermano said:


> What is this "he has to activate his DF and materialize" bullshit?




isn't that what we're seeing


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## El Hermano (Jan 7, 2021)

Hardcore said:


> i'm convinced that he needs to 'use' his dms technique which is just a mental reaction, kakashi in that version basically uses it and activates susanoo
> 
> your argument is kizaru has much faster reactions and can end it before he can use it and what i'm telling you kakashi could reasonably survive a few blows if that happens
> 
> ...


???
What are you trying to imply, exactly?


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## 1337RedGlitchFox (Jan 7, 2021)

Aw man. Kakashi gets to get bedridden again or dies. 

Kakashi probably couldnt handle a shot of tabasco sauce before he tires himself out and you guys are pitting him against Akainu. 

Cmon guys.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## B Rabbit (Jan 7, 2021)

I mean non of their bodies could react to Kizaru. Pretty sure they only saw the flashing light that most humans see.

Either way Kakashi gets blitzed.


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## Akira1993 (Jan 7, 2021)

DMS Kakashi dura with six path chakra is what?

@LazyWaka

@MusubiKazesaru

I will make it straightforward, does he has the same dura level as the top tier in that state? Let alone the god tier?


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## LazyWaka (Jan 7, 2021)

It's hard to gauge his durability. Best we could say is that it would be around the same level as EMS Mardara's PS which protected Madara from Hashirama's Strongest attack (around 1 PT) though it fell apart from damage afterwords.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 7, 2021)

Hardcore said:


> your argument is kizaru has much faster reactions and can end it before he can use it and what i'm telling you kakashi could reasonably survive a few blows if that happens


He isn't, is what I'm telling you.



Hardcore said:


> from what we've seen so far from kizaru and to what kakashi can scale to and i'm not aware of any numbers
> 
> kid nardo did not really have enormous reserves no


He actually did.

Chapter 1 naruto was already able to use it. Also, his base chakra was stated to be more than 4 times kakashi's and a hundred times without yamato suppressing the kyuubi.


Hardcore said:


> the cloaks and PS are all chakra forms so my point exactly, not sure what you mean about sakura


Sakura actually cloaks her fist with chakra so she wouldn't be hurt everytime she punches. Also, that is still a technique that lets you cloak your self with chakra for defensive purposes. Just because someone has chakra doesn't mean they're capable of cloaking themselves with it.


Hardcore said:


> again, not sure about the calc numbers, just pointing out the feats here
> 
> are kyuubi strikes just at city-level?


From what i remember, yes.
City level slaps, country level bijuu damas.


Hardcore said:


> isn't that what we're seeing


Yep, we're seeing plot armor in action.


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## Akira1993 (Jan 7, 2021)

LazyWaka said:


> It's hard to gauge his durability. Best we could say is that it would be around the same level as EMS Mardara's PS which protected Madara from Hashirama's Strongest attack (around 1 PT) though it fell apart from damage afterwords.


Around 1 PT, neat.

Enough to survive any attack from Kizaru.

His PS dura is obviously small planet level.


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## LazyWaka (Jan 7, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> Around 1 PT, neat.
> 
> Enough to survive any attack from Kizaru.
> 
> His PS dura is obviously small planet level.



What? No I was saying that the durability of his PS would be around that level. Kakashi can only compete with the God tier because of hax. His physical stats are ass in comparison.


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## Akira1993 (Jan 7, 2021)

LazyWaka said:


> What? No I was saying that the durability of his PS would be around that level. Kakashi can only compete with the God tier because of hax. His physical stats are ass in comparison.


Welp, RIP Kakashi then.


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## Foxve (Jan 8, 2021)

LazyWaka said:


> What? No I was saying that the durability of his PS would be around that level. Kakashi can only compete with the God tier because of hax. His physical stats are ass in comparison.





Akira1993 said:


> Welp, RIP Kakashi then.



Wait I thought he started in PS by default?


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## shade0180 (Jan 8, 2021)

Foxve said:


> Wait I thought he started in PS by default?


not mentioned in the OP.


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## Steven (Jan 8, 2021)

Kizaru cant even defeat Marco or the Supernova´s lol

Kakashi Kamuiblitzes the Adam Sandler rip-off

Reactions: Funny 1 | Ningen 1


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## JayK (Jan 8, 2021)

7 pages in and still the same 3 asshurt people arguing Kizaru wins

1 of them who hasn't even read the source material he is debating about

Reactions: Funny 2 | Old 3


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## LazyWaka (Jan 8, 2021)

Well if Kizaru is fast enough to blitz before Kakashi can activate Susano'o or kamui than Kizaru does win since he has the power to one shot.


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## Hardcore (Jan 8, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Kizaru is going to be attacking light years ahead of kakashi. The reality is Kizaru should be able to attack multiple times before Kakashi can even comprehend what's going on.
> 
> 
> Near Instantaneous, not automatic.
> ...



well if he can laser kakashi through the skull immediately then i guess yes

kid nardo that enormous reserves for a genin, fish guy did not have bad durability  

anyways, it's a matter of question, his laser is instant right?



LazyWaka said:


> Well if Kizaru is fast enough to blitz before Kakashi can activate Susano'o or kamui than Kizaru does win since he has the power to one shot.



since we're at it, didn't madara use some light speed attack that was up to debate

what happened with that


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## LazyWaka (Jan 8, 2021)

Hardcore said:


> well if he can laser kakashi through the skull immediately then i guess yes
> 
> kid nardo that enormous reserves for a genin, fish guy did not have bad durability
> 
> ...



I got lazy(er) and never got around to calcing it .

Reactions: Funny 2


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 8, 2021)

Hardcore said:


> since we're at it, didn't madara use some light speed attack that was up to debate


Either you accept it's light speed or it can't be dodged. 
 





Hardcore said:


> kid nardo that enormous reserves for a genin,


Wot? 
He has chakra reserves larger than 99% of the populace in konoha.




Hardcore said:


> fish guy did not have bad durability


For the amout of chakra he had, he got fucked by hirudora.


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## LazyWaka (Jan 8, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Either you accept it's light speed or it can't be dodged.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Kizarus shit has the same issue and we still rolled with it.

2. Chakra control is also a factor and pt 1 narutos was mediocre at best.

3. 7 gated gai is easily an upper high tier/low top tier.


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## Zern227 (Jan 8, 2021)

The problem with Light Fang was that Madara attack Naruto with it by turning his head. So you only need to be faster than Madara's reflexes.


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## LazyWaka (Jan 8, 2021)

Zern227 said:


> The problem with Light Fang was that Madara attack Naruto with it by turning his head. So you only need to be faster than Madara's reflexes.


 
Nah, he was directly facing naruto in the preceding panel. Him turning after doesn't change that.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 8, 2021)

LazyWaka said:


> 1. Kizarus shit has the same issue and we still rolled with it.


I don't think it was stated anywhere that he can't be dodged. Only that you have to be proficient in using observation haki to be able to react to him.


LazyWaka said:


> 2. Chakra control is also a factor and pt 1 narutos was mediocre at best.


Never said he had good control.
Only that he had vast amount of chakra reserves.


LazyWaka said:


> 3. 7 gated gai is easily an upper high tier/low top tier.


Power creep that wouldn't really benefit kisame.


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## El Hermano (Jan 9, 2021)

LazyWaka said:


> 1. Kizarus shit has the same issue and we still rolled with it.
> 
> 2. Chakra control is also a factor and pt 1 narutos was mediocre at best.
> 
> 3. 7 gated gai is easily an upper high tier/low top tier.


IIRC you said that after checking it again it appears that it cannot be quantified regardless.


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## Vicotex (Jan 9, 2021)

Linvel said:


> Kakashi gets blitzed. He has to activate the phasing.  Just because his DMS is activated doesn’t mean he is actively phasing at that moment. Just means he doesn’t have to first activate his MS to activate the phasing. Same with Susanoo for example just because the eyes are activated doesn’t mean that Susanoo is already activated.
> 
> Only thing saving Kakashi if it turns out he is close enough to Kizaru in the speed department to actually react. But Sub-Rel shouldn’t be able to react to LS.


Kizaru gets murked, he doesn't need to activate it. It's automatic phasing. 
Go read Eos Naruto to grab what you miss about DMS kakashi


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## Vicotex (Jan 9, 2021)

Hardcore said:


> man this thread is literally an example of every cancerdome thread back in 2012
> 
> 3 pages to argue how something works when you can just skim through 3 quick chaps that are there just to explain it
> 
> ...


They seems to forget about how Kamui works

Reactions: Old 1


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## The World (Jan 9, 2021)

Since when can OP top tiers slap Nardo God tiers?

Akainu and Kizaru do nothing but get their heads cut off

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Ningen 1


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## Sherlōck (Jan 10, 2021)

The World said:


> Since when can OP top tiers slap Nardo God tiers?
> 
> Akainu and Kizaru do nothing but get their heads cut off



Kakashi isn't god tier.

And OP characters are faster by at least 30x.


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## MarF (Jan 10, 2021)

DMS Kakashi is a Nardo god tier overall, the problem is whether or not his durability scales to that level. Most god tiers have some durability feats on their own to justify them scaling to at least continent+ level. DMS Kakashi is sorely lacking in that regard.


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## The World (Jan 10, 2021)

Sherlōck said:


> Kakashi isn't god tier.
> 
> And OP characters are faster by at least 30x.


sharinganless Kakashi trash tier

DMS Kakashi is god tier


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## Bobybobster (Jan 10, 2021)

MarF said:


> DMS Kakashi is a Nardo god tier overall,* the problem is whether or not his durability scales to that level*. Most god tiers have some durability feats on their own to justify them scaling to at least continent+ level. DMS Kakashi is sorely lacking in that regard.


It doesn't, waka already confirmed it. 
So it's pretty much established that due to the massive speed gap, kakashi gets blitzed and one shot, dms or not.


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## kayz (Jan 10, 2021)

The World said:


> Since when can OP top tiers slap Nardo God tiers?
> 
> Akainu and Kizaru do nothing but get their heads cut off


This. /THREAD


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 10, 2021)

Man its wild how people are just saying things and not posting evidence, the only evidence posted has been about fucking Kamui

Hardcore is the only person that posted anything and it was about Kakashi's durability. 

Like come on man, 8 pages of literally no evidence for anything. I even made a rule for people not to just run in and go "lol this person stomps gg" and people still do it. Like it'd be one thing if it was a one sided stomp like the Arale vs the HST thread, but come on man

Reactions: Funny 3


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