# 3TS Itachi vs Hebi Sasuke



## t0xeus (Feb 9, 2017)

Every condition is same as in canon except Itachi can't go MS

Both have killing intent


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## Kyu (Feb 9, 2017)

Every condition is the same... yet both have killing intent.

Itachi never intended to kill..


In a non-choreographed fight, Itachi chokeslams Sasuke and stabs him in the head with a kunai.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Icegaze (Feb 9, 2017)

I actually see sasuke winning 
He got other skill sets to balance out 3T itachi avantages 
I.e speed + feints 

CS2, snAke hands , better mid range ninjutsu all lead to sasuke winning


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## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2017)

Tough one. Hebi Sauce is very skilled and has the better overall toolset, but Itachi is more intelligent, crafty, and overall more skilled with his stuff.


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## t0xeus (Feb 9, 2017)

Kyu said:


> Every condition is the same... yet both have killing intent.
> 
> Itachi never intended to kill..
> 
> ...


Every condition except the one I will list under this is the same

sounds better ? didn't think it would trigger someone unless I write it like this


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## Serene Grace (Feb 9, 2017)

Itachi stomps, exploding clone feint gg


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 9, 2017)

He already knew everything Sasuke was going to throw at him besides Kirin but it won't get that far Itachi holds the advantages in speed , taijutsu, physical strength , and knowledge and he has superior chakra control of the fights plays out which I think it will Itachi takes it mid diff

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Sapherosth (Feb 9, 2017)

Hebi Sasuke might edge out over a really high diff win. Itachi's base arsenal isn't suited on taking on durable characters that can also counter his genjutsu. Orochimaru would probably come out. 

His best shot is Izanami, but that will still be a high-diff due to losing an eye. The second best shot is the crow clone/neck slash that he tried with Kabuto.


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## Android (Feb 9, 2017)

Sasuke wins .
- He already countered *two of Itachi's strongest Mangekyo Sharingan techniques *on his own power .
*- He defeated Tsukuyomi with his Sharingan (DB confirmed this).
- And he defeated Amaterasu using his Kawarimi Jutsu .*
The only thing he had no answer for was Susanoo .
His fire style is superior to Itachi's . 
He can overpower Itachi in CQC thanks to CS and Chidori variants .
He can counter Itachi's clone feints with Chidori Nagashi . Or by sprouting snakes from his body .
He can tank Itachi's fire style or Shurikens with his CS defense .
Either Sasuke seals the deal eventually with a good shot with Chidori . Or Kirin turns Itachi to a pile of red paste on the ground .
Itachi can not / will not defeat Sasuke w/o the MS . Mindless wank won't change that .

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 2


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## KeyofMiracles (Feb 9, 2017)

-Genjutsu is useless.
-Sasuke already overpowered his Ninjutsu with his own.
-Sasuke still has a gimped form of Kirin.
-Sasuke has Oral Rebirth if he ever takes a fatal or near fatal hit.

Pretty obvious who wins here. Itachi holding back or not Manga made it pretty clear that he needs MS if he wants to take Hebi Sasuke out. Arguing that 3-Tomoe does the job makes zero sense.


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 9, 2017)

KeyofMiracles said:


> -Genjutsu is useless.
> -Sasuke already overpowered his Ninjutsu with his own.
> -Sasuke still has a gimped form of Kirin.
> -Sasuke has Oral Rebirth if he ever takes a fatal or near fatal hit.
> ...



The manga indicated that Itachi planned to lose the fight never said specifically when he was holding back or what specifically he needed to be stronger than Sasuke , also there is the fact that not only did he throw the fight he needed to draw out Orochimaru so he needed Sasuke to push himself if he needed MS to defeat Sasuke he isn't strong enough to throw a fight he could be killed look at him vs Jiraiya he needed MS to counter his base ninjutsu so hat indicated that Jiraiya would give Itachi a tough fight , People just underestimate how far he was beneath Itachi at that moment


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 9, 2017)

Itachi was debilitated when he battled Hebi Sasuke and he deliberately had to prolong the fight and preserve his target more than what was necessary simply because he had to exhaust Sasuke's chakra long enough to release Orochimaru. This is something that Itachi is subpar in because his Stamina was evaluated as a 2.5, among the lowest for high-caliber shinobi and is trounced by even Kakashi and Old Hiruzen in this category. Under these circumstances, it's logical that Itachi would've required the Mangekyo Sharingan in order to prolong the fight, even moreso because Itachi has to exhaust himself to make the battle and his death far more conceivable. Itachi simply collapsing on the floor at full-strength wouldn't have sufficed and would've piqued Sasuke's curiosity immediately, so Itachi's lack of stamina and his need to purposely exhaust himself all played a role in why Itachi struggled as much as he did.

On the contrary, Itachi could not have accomplished such a feat without the Mangekyo which denoted that Itachi couldn't continue wearing kiddy gloves and whittling Sasuke down bit-by-bit, so they're not that far off in strength. Of course, I'm advocating for Itachi here presuming that he's healthy because his speed is far too great for Sasuke to react to; even cleaved Kabuto's horn and even managing to tag a far more elusive target makes decapitation significantly more probable. Explosive bunshins and distractions via crow clones would also suffice in injuring Sasuke severely and leave him vulnerable to a lethal attack as explosives have gravely wounded durable elites such as Obito who withstood the brunt of a Rasengan's explosion numerous times and was only partially scathed by KCM Naruto's Rasengan. Explosive bunshins would therefore suffice in weakening Sasuke over the course of the battle. Likewise his speed is far too great for Sasuke to respond to. Effacing himself even when battling Nagato and DSM Kabuto and tagging them as a result certainly suggests Sasuke will be tagged sooner or later, that's simply inexorable.

I give Itachi the nod more times than not. Make this Sick Itachi and Hebi Sasuke would triumph since his body is more suited for an extensive battle.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Disagree 1


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 9, 2017)

@WorldsStrongest your opinion in this one


Sasuke should win IMO
CS2 boosts sasukes over all stats
Has better defense (1) (2)
Superior Katon
Better DC in the form of chidori nagashi and all
Kirin destroys itachi
Sasuke should manage through those exploding bunshin seeing how kakashi managed to see through it /tank it with cs2.
So only realistic chance itachi has is through openings through crow clones  but sasuke should win 9/10 times.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 9, 2017)

Sasuke wins this one hands freaking down

Itachi loses almost all of his attack potency with MS restricted

Itachis genjutsu is useless against sasuke
His Katons are inferior to sasukes even in base
Sasuke has CS to amp his shit even higher over itachi, including base stats
CS limbs/Fodder snake summons for better defense
His raiton mastery gives him a massive edge in CQC as itachi cant even properly defend against a raiton blade
Lol Manda/Aoda gg
Kirin gg


Id also love to see a fodder katon/suiton take down someone with white snake powers...really would

Sasuke pushed Itachi to use his most powerful MS tech without an MS of his own...doesnt matter that itachi was sick or holding back, sasuke still pushed him into a corner where itachi woulda died without MS by his own admission...and itachi doesnt have MS here...

Reactions: Like 2


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## KeyofMiracles (Feb 9, 2017)

Eliyua23 said:


> The manga indicated that Itachi planned to lose the fight never said specifically when he was holding back or what specifically he needed to be stronger than Sasuke , also there is the fact that not only did he throw the fight he needed to draw out Orochimaru so he needed Sasuke to push himself if he needed MS to defeat Sasuke he isn't strong enough to throw a fight he could be killed look at him vs Jiraiya he needed MS to counter his base ninjutsu so hat indicated that Jiraiya would give Itachi a tough fight , People just underestimate how far he was beneath Itachi at that moment



That doesn't even make sense. Itachi needing MS to beat Sasuke doesn't mean that Itachi isn't so much stronger than Sasuke when using said MS that he can throw a fight.  The power gap between 3-Tomoe Itachi and MS Itachi is large. The power gap between full power MS Itachi and Hebi Sasuke is almost just as large.


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 9, 2017)

KeyofMiracles said:


> That doesn't even make sense. Itachi needing MS to beat Sasuke doesn't mean that Itachi isn't so much stronger than Sasuke when using said MS that he can throw a fight.  The power gap between 3-Tomoe Itachi and MS Itachi is large. The power gap between full power MS Itachi and Hebi Sasuke is almost just as large.



Yes it does because For Itachi to use MS it takes a huge toll on his body that was part of the reasoning for him retreating from Jiraiya , What people don't understand is he already knew everything Sasuke was going to do so it wasn't really just base he was using all of Orochimaru abilities which were already inferior to his own he had to use MS to burn himself out and extend the fight to draw out Orochimaru and seal him , if he needed MS nin to survive that doesn't tell the story of someone throwing the fight that tells the story of a close fight where he was just maybe a tad bit stronger from jump Itachi let himself get hit with the shuriken all throughout the fight zetsu knew something was up that's not the tale of someone having to use their best nin but someone fighting completely out of character 

See people look at the fight like Itachi was in survival mode but not looking at the fact he could've  ended the fight much sooner MS is for beast like Jiraiya , Danzo , Nagato, Kabuto , Minato not his little brother who he let win a pickup game in the drive way


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## Dano (Feb 9, 2017)

Mmm difficult. I always thought now that the manga was over, even if Itachi didn't intend to kill, he used his proper skills. Same as Naruto, he didn't intend to kill Sasuke but the techniques thrown are pretty much at full power proper of such techniques. I assume you can't half assed rasenshuriken nor half assed bijuu damas so the same applies, and there is also this weird notion in ninja world in which you should give your all in battle (even if you intend to not kill) and hope the other party reacts accordingly and not be killed in the process. Amaterasu's power and Tsukuyomi's strenght aren't weaker because of his intention, however they are misused in proper strategy as to kill Sasuke. He could probably just have gone with a very likely combination of such and he'd have beat Sasuke with his MS. That's how i see this whole "Itachi never intended to kill Sasuke".

As for 3 Tomoe Itachi, assuming the taxing of his disease is more noticeable the longer the fight goes on, his shurikenjutsu is the most telling of how his inital speed (hand work at least) is better than Hebi!Sasuke's, he also barely used his crows clone but didn't use his explosive clone in that fight. It'd be a different Itachi. I think if doesn't Itachi finish him off in the first minutes of the fight he'd be defeated. Itachi's inital advantage are his base physical speed, and proper different bukijutsu and combination of strategy in killing his opponents. He would need to overpower and deal a killing blow to Sasuke before he goes CS or gets more taxing to him. I doubt it, Hebi!Sasuke even if inferior he keeps up with other jutsus for the thin gap of their skills. And him having more chakra and stamina, he'd only have to deal with the first barrage of what Itachi throws at him. Explosions? CS 2 already took care of that, crow bunshins are useless against Hebi!Sasuke since they mostly are done to genjutsu a victim which is useless against Hebi!Sasuke, Kage bunshins are better at taijutsu and ninjustu. Hebi!Sasuke had a lot of experience against bunshins by now. So yeah I'd give Sasuke the win here. If it were healthy Itachi, i can see more cases of him winning against Sasuke.

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## Bonly (Feb 10, 2017)

Well we've seen that Sasuke has the potential to deal with whatever Itachi can dish out and it was basically made clear that the MS is what would've put down Sasuke if Itachi was serious so Itachi is gonna be fighting an up hill and losing battle until he eventually gets overwhelmed.


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## KeyofMiracles (Feb 10, 2017)

Eliyua23 said:


> Yes it does because For Itachi to use MS it takes a huge toll on his body that was part of the reasoning for him retreating from Jiraiya , What people don't understand is he already knew everything Sasuke was going to do so it wasn't really just base he was using all of Orochimaru abilities which were already inferior to his own he had to use MS to burn himself out and extend the fight to draw out Orochimaru and seal him *, if he needed MS nin to survive that doesn't tell the story of someone throwing the fight that tells the story of a close fight where he was just maybe a tad bit stronger from jump Itachi let himself get hit with the shuriken all throughout the fight zetsu knew something was up that's not the tale of someone having to use their best nin but someone fighting completely out of character *
> 
> See people look at the fight like Itachi was in survival mode but not looking at the fact he could've  ended the fight much sooner MS is for beast like Jiraiya , Danzo , Nagato, Kabuto , Minato not his little brother who he let win a pickup game in the drive way



No. None of what you are saying is even an argument so I have no idea what you expect me to reply to. MS taking a huge toll on Itachi's power doesn't change the *fact *that MS Itachi is FAR stronger than 3-Tomoe Itachi, thus MS Itachi letting Sasuke win has literally nothing to do with 3-Tomoe vs. Sasuke. The bold doesn't even make sense and is incoherent to boot AND it was already addressed.


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 10, 2017)

KeyofMiracles said:


> No. None of what you are saying is even an argument so I have no idea what you expect me to reply to. MS taking a huge toll on Itachi's power doesn't change the *fact *that MS Itachi is FAR stronger than 3-Tomoe Itachi, thus MS Itachi letting Sasuke win has literally nothing to do with 3-Tomoe vs. Sasuke. The bold doesn't even make sense and is incoherent to boot AND it was already addressed.



Who said MS wasn't stronger , but we saw in the fight Itachi didn't have the stamina and good health to use MS sparingly , so remember this was a man fighting back illness so yes MS would be infatcitly stronger in a healthy body but this was an Itachi that didn't want to do so , the problem is you're approaching the fight like Sasuke had any inclining of a chance to win and completely ignoring that damn near every move h made was not fighting at maximum level and it was never specified that Itachi only held back with MS , or that MS was needed to be superior , Or it was some type of trump over Sasuke , Itachi was on his death bed and threw the fight , if it was a measure of Itachi just being stronger only because of MS it would imply they were closer its no different than Minato needing FTG to deal with Obito , or Hiruzen needing death reaper seal to deal with Edo Tensei , or Naruto needing Bijuu Mode to deal with Kages , or needing FRS to deal with Kakuzu nope those imply said shinobi was better but their best jutsu made the difference this gap was much more enormous than that most agree that Itachi would need MS to defeat Jiraiya a Jiraiya who is much stronger than Hebi Sasuke or even an Orochimaru who could pull out Edo Tensei and 8th Branch now saying Itachi "NEEDS" MS to survive makes more sense

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## JiraiyaFlash (Feb 10, 2017)

Itachi still has better rep, better physical attiributes, better cqc and more intelligence and more crafty.. But without variety of assets. Intelligence or being crafty work on a guy like very versatile as Sasuke. 

MS Itachi >= Taka Sasuke > Sick MS Itachi = Hebi Sasuke > 3T Itachi if we're gonna rep and feats and assets.. I thin its fair to say. 

But fighting is something different. And we're never saw Itachi that striking for Kill ?!. So it would be so tougher than anyone think (for both opponents) but to be more fair.. I put my money on versatility and the guy who already shook off some of Itachi's MS jutsus. So ım gonna go with Sasuke with high-ext diff. 

And without susano, any giant snake would be trouble as hell for Itachi. That creates diversion for Sasuke's actions on him.


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## Trojan (Feb 10, 2017)

Sasuke wins mid difficult at most.

Itachi stands no chance without his Susanoo.


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## uchihakil (Feb 10, 2017)

Well itachi is still faster and also smarter, i think he also has superior chakra cuz he wont be wasting chakra using MS techniques (susano, amaterasu and tsukiyomi) as they are very taxing, so he'll have more chakra to play around with, and he is also superior in using feints (crow/exploding clone and crows). Sasuke is superior though in ninjutsu, but i give this to the faster more experienced and smarter brother (an itachi with intent to kill would be a beast)


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## uchihakil (Feb 10, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Sasuke wins mid difficult at most.
> 
> Itachi stands no chance without his Susanoo.



the same itachi who was throwing sasuke around like a pillow huh.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Trojan (Feb 10, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> the same itachi who was throwing sasuke around like a pillow huh.


mmmm, ok?


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## Blu-ray (Feb 10, 2017)

Sasuke takes it hands down. Itachi's genjutsu, which is like 90% of the reason he's dangerous in base, is gonna do jack shit when Sasuke will see through it, and his ninjutsu is going to be equally ineffective when Sasuke can either overpower them the CS boost or straight up tank them with snake meatshields/CS2 wings. Even in the off chance Itachi manages to get a near fatal blow in, Sasuke has an Oral Rebirth in reserve which can double as an opening for a surprise attack.

Then we have the coup de grâce with Kirin, which even if it won't be as potent due a smaller storm, won't need to be as Itachi'll have no Susano'o to protect himself with.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## uchihakil (Feb 10, 2017)

Yall should keep in mind what kabuto said bout itachi, his ability to read his opponents which is unsurpassed, its not really just hype, dude is straight up smart af, its not gonna be easy, but i still see him winning with clone feints

Reactions: Funny 2


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## KeyofMiracles (Feb 10, 2017)

Eliyua23 said:


> Who said MS wasn't stronger , but we saw in the fight Itachi didn't have the stamina and good health to use MS sparingly , so remember this was a man fighting back illness so yes MS would be infatcitly stronger in a healthy body but this was an Itachi that didn't want to do so , the problem is you're approaching the fight like Sasuke had any inclining of a chance to win and completely ignoring that damn near every move h made was not fighting at maximum level and it was never specified that Itachi only held back with MS , or that MS was needed to be superior , Or it was some type of trump over Sasuke , Itachi was on his death bed and threw the fight , if it was a measure of Itachi just being stronger only because of MS it would imply they were closer its no different than Minato needing FTG to deal with Obito , or Hiruzen needing death reaper seal to deal with Edo Tensei , or Naruto needing Bijuu Mode to deal with Kages , or needing FRS to deal with Kakuzu nope those imply said shinobi was better but their best jutsu made the difference this gap was much more enormous than that most agree that Itachi would need MS to defeat Jiraiya a Jiraiya who is much stronger than Hebi Sasuke or even an Orochimaru who could pull out Edo Tensei and 8th Branch now saying Itachi "NEEDS" MS to survive makes more sense



No one said you said that MS wasn't stronger. The point is it's FAR stronger regardless of Itachi's stamina or not. An Itachi who can only use MS a few times can take out opponents and do things a healthy 3-T Tomoe Itachi could never do so drop that comparison. 

And no, the problem here is you are faling to comprehend what's being stated in my posts. Itachi throwing the fight is irrelevant. He needs MS to defeat Sasuke. Him USING MS WHILE THROWING THE FIGHT DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE CAN WIN USING 3-Tomoe. That is garbage logic. 

This is what the Manga has shown: 

-Sasuke has an answer for every and all Genjutsu tech Itachi uses.
-Sasuke's Ninjutsu is stronger.
-Kirin is unavoidable to Itachi.
-He can even handle Amaterasu to a limited extent.

Yet you think you make sense arguing that Itachi w/o MS can beat Sasuke? lmao. The Manga has spoken. You seem to think that Itachi throwing the fight means that Itachi can win w/o MS even though there is zero correlation. Bold is just you making up your own rules for how things work when in reality that kind of logic does not and will not ever fly. Itachi needs MS to defeat Hebi Sasuke. That is what the Manga has shown. You are rambling at this point.


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## Trojan (Feb 10, 2017)

I cringe every time someone says itachi is smart. 

The dude is straight up mentally retarded.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 1 | Useful 1


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 10, 2017)

Itachi got played by a so called disgrace of uchiha his entire life.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Dano (Feb 10, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> the same itachi who was throwing sasuke around like a pillow huh.


You mean inside the genjutsu? He possessed no such feat. His bukijutsu is slightly superior tho.


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## uchihakil (Feb 10, 2017)

oMeGa1904 said:


> You mean inside the genjutsu? He possessed no such feat. His bukijutsu is slightly superior tho.



That shit was all gonna happen, it just happened in genjutsu, but he also blitz kicked sasuke and nailed him to the wall which was'nt genjutsu, if he wanted him dead, all thats needed was a kunai follow up

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## uchihakil (Feb 10, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Itachi got played by a so called disgrace of uchiha his entire life.



Obito did'nt play itachi, obito was lowkey shitting his pants because of itachi

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 2


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## Android (Feb 10, 2017)

Hussain said:


> I cringe every time someone says itachi is smart.
> 
> The dude is straight up mentally retarded.


Agreed .

> He tells Naruto to rely on his comrades and whatnot.
> Minutes later he tells Sasuke to piss off cuz he'll deal with Kabuto alone.
> Tells Sasuke to kill his friend.
> Expects him to have a hero welcome when he returns to Konoha.

> Genius

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Bookworm (Feb 10, 2017)

I don't know why people don't think 3t Itachi can't beat Hebi Sasuke.


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 10, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Obito did'nt play itachi, obito was lowkey shitting his pants because of itachi


>Itachi was running errands doing free labour for obito and neither could do a shit to akatsuki or find any info on obito .

>For a so called intelligent guy needed to be reanimated to know that he was completely played.

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 1


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## Dano (Feb 10, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> That shit was all gonna happen, it just happened in genjutsu, but he also blitz kicked sasuke and nailed him to the wall which was'nt genjutsu, if he wanted him dead, all thats needed was a kunai follow up



Don't follow are you claiming what happens in a genjutsu is a reflect of what would have happened in NV and ergo proof of Itachi's superior taijutsu skills?

This scene happened in a genjutsu. In which he was superior than him in taijutsu. Which was reiterated by Sasuke and Zetsu.

The stamp to the wall scene happened inside Tsukuyomi. You can see the activation here. Look at Sasuke's position he's front the gate. When Tsukuyomi ended he still was in front of the gate not by the wall. Never by the wall.

Even if you want to consider the first genjutsu as proof of Itachi's prowess which is _ridiculous _to begin with. Then i can claim he only beat Sasuke's snake bunshin, and Sasuke is so fast he could have blitzed him and stabbed him from behind.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Trojan (Feb 10, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Agreed .
> 
> > He tells Naruto to rely on his comrades and whatnot.
> > Minutes later he tells Sasuke to piss off cuz he'll deal with Kabuto alone.
> ...



> knows of "Asspulldara" existence. 
> Does not tell the Hokage and the others that he is alive and likely behind Kurama's attack.

Reactions: Like 2 | Useful 1


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## Android (Feb 10, 2017)

Hussain said:


> > knows of "Asspulldara" existence.
> > Does not tell the Hokage and the others that he is alive and likely behind Kurama's attack.


- Takes off the cursed seal from Sasuke cuz it was harmful.
- Tells him he needs hatred to get stronger.

> Genius .

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 10, 2017)

KeyofMiracles said:


> He needs MS to defeat Sasuke. Him USING MS WHILE THROWING THE FIGHT DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE CAN WIN USING 3-Tomoe. That is garbage logic.
> 
> This is what the Manga has shown:
> 
> ...



See that's your own and many forum members interpretation that he needs MS . See you think he NEEDS something to defeat Sasuke when he is in fact the much stronger shinobi and the manga did not make it clear , the only thing that is GOSPEL the words to live by at the conclusion of that fight is that Itachi THREW THE FIGHT , and not only did he THROW THE FIGHT , he did so by fighting back illness , and also while trying to draw Orochimaru out of him Itachi had to accomplish all of these things yet you think he NEEDS MS to defeat Sasuke , so in most battle some arguments people think Itachi needs MS to defeat Jiraiya , Minato , Pain , Tobirama all shinobi much much stronger than Hebi Sasuke yet he would need those same ninjutsu to defeat Hebi Sasuke , what has Itachi told us TOLD something else not left up to subjectivity ALL OF OROCHIMARU's ninjutsu is useless against him and those were the ninjutsu he was utilizing against Itachi question if Sasuke's ninjutsu was so much superior then why didn't he kill Itachi before MS came into play why did in those exchanges did even Zetsu know Itachi wasn't up to par , and you bring up gen and nin but ingnore Itachi's advantages in knowledge , tactics , speed , reaction , strength , taijutsu , chakra control those matter as well and remember this is WITH ILLNESS something he doesn't even have in this thread


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 10, 2017)

Sharingan Itachi > Sasuke?!  

Sasuke can break/take genjutsu out of the equation and has a superior overall arsenal and Itachi has absolutely no means of defense against Sasuke's Kirin.

Wow, 2017 and Itachi wank is still striving.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ishmael (Feb 10, 2017)

Without ms I don't see how itachi can take this, saskue has better and more firepower to work with in this situation. 

But itachi still has the speed, good cqc, and clone feints to work with but that doesn't change the fact , that he was known mostly because of being a prodigy and his sharingan.

No Ms=No susano'o and no counter for Kirin GG.


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## Dano (Feb 10, 2017)

I never understood why people bring intelligence and other attributes alike in a VS thread. When the purpose is to figure out a way for a character to defeat the other. It doesn't matter if one of the characters is smart or not, we do the battle and strategy for them. This "he's smart, he'll find a way" falls flat if you cant figure it out by his feats. By that Shikamaru should win every fight.

As for 3 tomoe Itachi winning i can't see it, since even if he has some gap in bukijutsu (shown) and taijutsu and speed. The gap can be closed easily by CS. His explosion bunshins can work but we have shown Sasuke already using CS v2 to stand explosions (against Deidara). And even then CS v2 would surpass any gap Itachi had in that superior physical prowess. And even then Kirin. And i'm assuming this is sick Itachi, in which i don't see how he could win. A healthy Itachi probably had some chances, but i still think he would lose majority of the times only because CS. His prowess is too ambiguous.

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## uchihakil (Feb 10, 2017)

Itachi clone feinted and tagged SM kabuto, he clone feints and tags hebi sasuke who is much weaker in reaction speed/speed/sensing


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## Bookworm (Feb 10, 2017)

Itachi has genjutsu reflection, which he used against Kurenai, if he used that against Sasuke wouldn't have been able to use genjutsu against Itachi.


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## uchihakil (Feb 10, 2017)

Trolling said:


> Itachi has genjutsu reflection, which he used against Kurenai, if he used that against Sasuke wouldn't have been able to use genjutsu against Itachi.



Well that still would'nt affect sasuke as he (sasuke) would still break out of the genjutsu reversal (pretty sure sasuke can break out of his genjutsu)


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## Dano (Feb 10, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Itachi clone feinted and tagged SM kabuto, he clone feints and tags hebi sasuke who is much weaker in reaction speed/speed/sensing



> Obviating it was a joint effort between Sasuke and Itachi. Sasuke distracting him.

Are you gonna post other genjutsu skill? Izanami is also a genjutsu so you know. It never happened in NV. Just heads up.



Trolling said:


> Itachi has genjutsu reflection, which he used against Kurenai, if he used that against Sasuke wouldn't have been able to use genjutsu against Itachi.



Obviously Sasuke would not win against him by genjutsu. It isn't why Sasuke wins in this fight.


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## uchihakil (Feb 10, 2017)

oMeGa1904 said:


> > Obviating it was a joint effort between Sasuke and Itachi. Sasuke distracting him.
> 
> Are you gonna post other genjutsu skill? Izanami is also a genjutsu so you know. It never happened in NV. Just heads up.
> 
> ...



Itachi solely clone feinted kabuto, sasuke did not attack in that instance, itachi rushed at kabuto then kabuto stabbed him, he turns to crows and itachi came out of nowhere and took his blade and cut of his horn, sasuke did nothing to help there


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## Dano (Feb 10, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Itachi solely clone feinted kabuto, sasuke did not attack in that instance, itachi rushed at kabuto then kabuto stabbed him, he turns to crows and itachi came out of nowhere and took his blade and cut of his horn, *sasuke did nothing to help there*



Are u so dense as to consider that from the fact Kabuto was distracted and pointed to the wall, that he has to focus in Sasuke's sword to consider escaping is maybe why Itachi could create a crow clone before charging against Kabuto and succeeded in cutting his horn?


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## uchihakil (Feb 10, 2017)

oMeGa1904 said:


> Are u so dense as to consider that from the fact Kabuto was distracted and pointed to the wall, that he has to focus in Sasuke's sword to consider escaping is maybe why Itachi could create a crow clone before charging against Kabuto and succeeded in cutting his horn?



that did'nt stop him from reacting to itachi's sword attack did it?


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## Bookworm (Feb 10, 2017)

With Itachi being able to use genjutsu on Sasuke and Sasuke not being able to use genjutsu on him the battle goes in Itachi's favor. Sasuke took forever to break out of Itachi's first genjutsu, so Itachi could kill him in the mean time during genjutsu.

Also Itachi was keeping pace with Sasuke in the shuriken battle and in foot speed even though his eyesight was nearly gone. Itachi is definitely better and faster then Sasuke.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Android (Feb 10, 2017)

Who said Sasuke can't Genjutsu Itachi ? 
And who said he too long to break his Genjutsu when Tsukuyomi itself takes less than a second .
Why are people arguing this like something terrible would happen if they just admit they're wrong.
Itachi will not/ can not win this battle.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Bookworm (Feb 10, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Who said Sasuke can't Genjutsu Itachi ?
> And who said he too long to break his Genjutsu when Tsukuyomi itself takes less than a second .
> Why are people arguing this like something terrible would happen if they just admit they're wrong.
> Itachi will not/ can not win this battle.



That fact that he took so long to break out of Itachi's first genjutsu, indicates that Itachi let Sasuke "break" through Tsukuyomi.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Android (Feb 10, 2017)

Trolling said:


> That fact that he took so long to break out of Itachi's first genjutsu, indicates that Itachi let Sasuke "break" through Tsukuyomi.


Databook begs to differ tho

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dano (Feb 10, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> that did'nt stop him from reacting to itachi's sword attack did it?


That's actually a feat of SM Kabuto's reflexes. He could, even if distracted and Itachi previously creating a crows clone and planning a sneak attack, evade Itachi's swing that only cut his horn. Itachi being able to create a bunshin while Kabuto was distracted is in no way a feat of his "better swiftness" against SM Kabuto. But as i said it's Kabuto's feat.



Trolling said:


> That fact that he took so long to break out of Itachi's first genjutsu, indicates that Itachi let Sasuke "break" through Tsukuyomi.



DB begs to differ. And he didn't took long. It was a nest of genjutsus between Itachi and Sasuke.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bookworm (Feb 10, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Databook begs to differ tho



you have a link?


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 10, 2017)

Trolling said:


> I don't know why people don't think 3t Itachi can't beat Hebi Sasuke.


Because Hebi sasuke is literally better in every way bar a minscule edge in itachis favor in the category of speed (which is all but eliminated when sasuke uses his CS)  and an edge in tactics for itachi (maybe, sasuke is quite crafty as well, they could tie here)

Sasuke holds the edge of itachi in "Equal Forms" (meaning both base, both 3T, both MS etc) in literally every category aside from speed, which goes to itachi by a small degree, and intellect which they are damn close in.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dano (Feb 10, 2017)

Trolling said:


> you have a link?


It's one of the DB (). And why do you think his Tsukuyomi is weaker when he casted against Sasuke? Cause he wanted to lose? As i said before, . I don't recall his Amaterasu burning any less. It's the combination of how he threw his powers in which it's telling he wanted to lose mostly.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Feb 10, 2017)

Trolling said:


> you have a link?


Not in present. But yes , Hebi Sasuke DB entery confirmed he was able to break it with his Sharingan.
Tsukuyomi works by altering the victim perception of time , making a split second feel like days , Sasuke didn't even spend more than few minutes in Tsukuyomi's illusion, which means he broke it almost instantly leaving no chance for Itachi to attack .
If he broke free from Tsukuyomi then that means he didnt take any time since Tsukuyomi itself doesnt take more than split second , so your stance is literally impossible and makes no sense .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Feb 10, 2017)

That being said, SM Naruto kicks both their assed at the same time  
( And so does Minato BTW  ).


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 10, 2017)

Itachi cutting of a horn isn't anything special because Kabuto didn't even realize he had a horn


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## Bookworm (Feb 10, 2017)

oMeGa1904 said:


> That's actually a feat of SM Kabuto's reflexes. He could, even if distracted and Itachi previously creating a crows clone and planning a sneak attack, evade Itachi's swing that only cut his horn. Itachi being able to create a bunshin while Kabuto was distracted is in no way a feat of his "better swiftness" against SM Kabuto. But as i said it's Kabuto's feat.



It would have been stupid of Kabuto to get distracted going for the sword, when not only is he fighting two opponents, but he didn't even need the sword to get away. Getting the sword in the first place, was simply to set up for hitting his opponent.



oMeGa1904 said:


> It's one of the DB (). And why do you think his Tsukuyomi is weaker when he casted against Sasuke? Cause he wanted to lose? As i said before, . I don't recall his Amaterasu burning any less. It's the combination of how he threw his powers in which it's telling he wanted to lose mostly.



It's just logical. Sasuke took a long time to break out Itachi's first genjutsu, but got out Tsukuyomi even faster, even though Itachi is much better at genjutsu and had MS which is much stronger then 3t sharingan. So it's highly likely Itachi let Sasuke "break" Tsukuyomi. 



GuidingThunder said:


> Not in present. But yes , Hebi Sasuke DB entery confirmed he was able to break it with his Sharingan.
> Tsukuyomi works by altering the victim perception of time , making a split second feel like days , Sasuke didn't even spend more than few minutes in Tsukuyomi's illusion, which means he broke it almost instantly leaving no chance for Itachi to attack .
> If he broke free from Tsukuyomi then that means he didnt take any time since Tsukuyomi itself doesnt take more than split second , so your stance is literally impossible and makes no sense .



There's nothing indicating that the Tsukuyomi that Itachi put Sasuke in is as fast as the one he put Kakashi in. Actually considering the nature of the illusion Itachi put Sasuke in and the fact that Itachi wanted Sasuke to win, it was likely realtime.


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## Android (Feb 10, 2017)

Trolling said:


> There's nothing indicating that the Tsukuyomi that Itachi put Sasuke in is as fast as the one he put Kakashi in. Actually considering the nature of the illusion Itachi put Sasuke in and the fact that Itachi wanted Sasuke to win, it was likely realtime.


Conjecture.
Based on nothing.
Never stated or implied.
Refers to the DB again .


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## Bookworm (Feb 10, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Conjecture.
> Based on nothing.
> Never stated or implied.
> Refers to the DB again .



It's not based on nothing, but if you want to believe that go ahead. Do you have any evidence that he was in a 3 day Tsukuyomi then?


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## Android (Feb 10, 2017)

Trolling said:


> Do you have any evidence that he was in a 3 day Tsukuyomi then?


No because he broke out of it fast .


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## Bookworm (Feb 10, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> No because he broke out of it fast .


 then there's no evidence he broke out of a peak Tsukuyomi.


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## uchihakil (Feb 10, 2017)

oMeGa1904 said:


> That's actually a feat of SM Kabuto's reflexes. He could, even if distracted and Itachi previously creating a crows clone and planning a sneak attack, evade Itachi's swing that only cut his horn. Itachi being able to create a bunshin while Kabuto was distracted is in no way a feat of his "better swiftness" against SM Kabuto. But as i said it's Kabuto's feat.
> 
> 
> 
> DB begs to differ. And he didn't took long. It was a nest of genjutsus between Itachi and Sasuke.



The same dude that clashed with bee huh, you guys have'nt even told us how sasuke beats him, itachi fought, itachi can use his crows and land vital hit on sasuke, forcing him to use oral rebirth, and he cant use oral rebirth more than once + itachi can use izanagi if he has to, a minute of immortality would put sasuke at a disadvantage, and itachi will surely prevail


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## Dano (Feb 10, 2017)

Trolling said:


> *It would have been stupid of Kabuto to get distracted going for the sword*, when not only is he fighting two opponents, but he didn't even need the sword to get away. Getting the sword in the first place, was simply to set up for hitting his opponent.



But that's what happened. Kabuto, as Sasuke said, was going to cut his own tail to escape with that sword. His focus was on that, and before he was distracted by Susanoo arrow and previously even by Magatamas.




Trolling said:


> Sasuke took a long time to break out Itachi's first genjutsu


What? How can you claim that by how this scene played out, it was a nested genjutsu. It doesn't break one another, Itachi's 1st genjutsu played inside Sasuke's, but then it's also inside Itachi's 2nd one. There is no clear division in breaks in that scene nor clear breaks in back and forward genjutsus, the illusions are played inside one another.

Take Kurenai vs Itachi's genjutsu for example, Itachi immediately saw thru it, and while Itachi's counter genjutsu was already playing out, Kurenai's genjutsu was still going only to be revealed at the end she was already trapped inside his counter genjutsu.

One illusion is played in the background of the other creating layers or genjutsus inside other genjutsu with no clear winner in Itachi vs Sasuke's case. You seem to consider the moment the counter illusion plays out means the seconds the "counter-er" was inside the first genjutsu is the time he was indeed inside the genjutsu which is false, Itachi immediately saw thru it but his counter genjutsu let play Kurenai's genjutsu. Similar case was Sasuke vs Itachi. Once you have sharingan you can detect this shit easily.




Trolling said:


> but got out Tsukuyomi even faster, even though Itachi is much better at genjutsu and had MS which is much stronger then 3t sharingan. So it's highly likely Itachi let Sasuke "break" Tsukuyomi.



Tsukuyomi is instant. There is no real time from Sasuke to break it. And since your point rely on the earlier i already addressed it.



Trolling said:


> There's nothing indicating that the Tsukuyomi that Itachi put Sasuke in is as fast as the one he put Kakashi in. Actually considering the nature of the illusion Itachi put Sasuke in and the fact that Itachi wanted Sasuke to win, it was likely realtime.



I think this is just a remnant of before.



uchihakil said:


> The same dude that clashed with bee huh, you guys have'nt even told us how sasuke beats him, itachi fought, itachi can use his crows and land vital hit on sasuke, forcing him to use oral rebirth, and he cant use oral rebirth more than once + itachi can use izanagi if he has to, a minute of immortality would put sasuke at a disadvantage, and itachi will surely prevail



> Obviating it was said Sasuke was still not completely healed from his battle with Itachi when he fought against Bee.

So you are going with Edo!Itachi = Healthy one then. Even so CS (v.1 and if not v.2) can close an definitely surpass thet gap. Izanami is useless in battle. And if he uses Izanagi oral rebirth can be used. I'm not even sure if Itachi can perform Izanagi tbh.

Edit. Clarification

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Feb 10, 2017)

People here actually think Itachi wins, I also find it laughable that people still use the Kabuto example, despite him lacking the battle experience to the point he didn't even remember he had horns in the first place


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## Dano (Feb 10, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> People here actually think Itachi wins, I also find it laughable that people still use the Kabuto example, despite him lacking the battle experience to the point he didn't even remember he had horns in the first place





The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Itachi stomps, exploding clone feint gg


 You started it.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Serene Grace (Feb 10, 2017)

oMeGa1904 said:


> You started it.


I tried to be someone I'm not but...it didn't work out too wellKappa

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bookworm (Feb 10, 2017)

oMeGa1904 said:


> But that's what happened. Kabuto, as Sasuke said, was going to cut his own tail to escape with that sword. His focus was on that, and before he was distracted by Susanoo arrow and previously even by Magatamas.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- I'm not sure what you're trying to say to be honest. It seems you're saying that one can be in a genjutsu, while he has seen through that same genjutsu and put someone else in a genjutsu at the same time. Is that what you're saying?

- Tsukuyomi lasted longer than an instant for Kabuto


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## Android (Feb 10, 2017)

Trolling said:


> then there's no evidence he broke out of a peak Tsukuyomi.


And once again i tell you such a thing was never stated or implied .
Why would the DB try to gauge such a feat if all he did was break a nerfed Tsukuyomi . Why would the DB hype up such a feat and make a big deal of it if he really didn't defeat peak Tsukuyomi ? makes no sense .
You are trying so hard to throw you subjective opinion into this , but it just doesn't work .


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## Dano (Feb 10, 2017)

Trolling said:


> - I'm not sure what you're trying to say to be honest. It seems you're saying that one can be in a genjutsu, while he has seen through that same genjutsu and put someone else in a genjutsu at the same time. Is that what you're saying?



You are taking manga panels in which you see Sasuke inside the first genjutsu to prove the "time" taken for Sasuke to break it, but this episode is not about breaking genjutsus but a battle of genjutsus and counter genjutsus. As Kurenai vs Itachi's case, when you use counter-genjutsus, one "reality" plays behind the other so the time you saw Sasuke inside is no indication of how long he took to counter it. Itachi for example saw thru Kurenai's genjutsu from the get go but still was shown inside Kurenai's "reality" latter panels but the counter reality was playing in the background and came forward at the end.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 10, 2017)

Hussain said:


> I cringe every time someone says itachi is smart.
> 
> The dude is straight up mentally retarded.





GuidingThunder said:


> Agreed .
> 
> > He tells Naruto to rely on his comrades and whatnot.
> > Minutes later he tells Sasuke to piss off cuz he'll deal with Kabuto alone.
> ...





professor83 said:


> >Itachi was running errands doing free labour for obito and neither could do a shit to akatsuki or find any info on obito .
> 
> >For a so called intelligent guy needed to be reanimated to know that he was completely played.





Hussain said:


> > knows of "Asspulldara" existence.
> > Does not tell the Hokage and the others that he is alive and likely behind Kurama's attack.





GuidingThunder said:


> - Takes off the cursed seal from Sasuke cuz it was harmful.
> - Tells him he needs hatred to get stronger.
> 
> > Genius .


>Leaves it to Naruto to change Sasuke 
>Meets Sasuke and tells him if only he had told Sasuke the truth all those years ago the massacre could've been avoided but chose to mass-murder his clan instead
>Says the reason Sasuke is the way he is is because of his own dumbass decisions
>Doesn't bother to try to change Sasuke, and proceeds to tell Sasuke no matter what he does, he'll love him always before he disappears right after Sasuke told him he'll still try to destroy Konoha

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 1


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## Bookworm (Feb 10, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> And once again i tell you such a thing was never stated or implied .
> Why would the DB try to gauge such a feat if all he did was break a nerfed Tsukuyomi . Why would the DB hype up such a feat and make a big deal of it if he really didn't defeat peak Tsukuyomi ? makes no sense .
> You are trying so hard to throw you subjective opinion into this , but it just doesn't work .


The databook hypes what's _apparently_ true at the time, not what's necessarily true. Like when the first databook mentions Hiruzen is the strongest hokage in history, and later databook hypes Hashirama. Or how the one of the first 2 db say Itachi betrayed the Uchiha clan for his own interest, when it's apparent he did for konoha. There's other instances of the db not being accurate.



oMeGa1904 said:


> You are taking manga panels in which you see Sasuke inside the first genjutsu to prove the "time" taken for Sasuke to break it, but this episode is not about breaking genjutsus but a battle of genjutsus and counter genjutsus. As Kurenai vs Itachi's case, when you use counter-genjutsus, one "reality" plays behind the other so the time you saw Sasuke inside is no indication of how long he took to counter it. Itachi for example saw thru Kurenai's genjutsu from the get go but still was shown inside Kurenai's "reality" latter panels but the counter reality was playing in the background and came forward at the end.



Let's say your right and someone can be a genjutsu while having already countered it, it doesn't matter in Sasuke's case. Sasuke said "this is the end Itachi" while in genjutsu, then he saw through Itachi genjutsu and said "have you gone deaf this is the end! I said this is the end you piece of shit!" and then he killed a genjutsu. So it's obvious that Sasuke thought he killed the real Itachi.


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## Android (Feb 10, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> >Leaves it to Naruto to change Sasuke
> >Meets Sasuke and tells him if only he had told Sasuke the truth all those years ago the massacre could've been avoided but chose to mass-murder his clan instead
> >Says the reason Sasuke is the way he is is because of his own dumbass decisions
> >Doesn't bother to try to change Sasuke, and proceeds to tell Sasuke no matter what he does, he'll love him always before he disappears right after Sasuke told him he'll still try to destroy Konoha


> Itachi : I killed my clan and raped my parents for the sake of Konoha .
> Sasuke : I will destroy Konoha for you Itachi .
> Itachi : I ...i will always love you 
> Sasuke :

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Android (Feb 10, 2017)

Trolling said:


> The databook hypes what's _apparently_ true at the time, not what necessarily. Like when the first databook mentions Hiruzen is the strongest hokage in history, and later databook hypes Hashirama. Or how the one of the first 2 db say Itachi betrayed the Uchiha clan for his own interest, when it's apparent he did for konoha.


Retconned informations =/= actual events . Your comparison doesn't even begin to make sense .
The DB is written by the same people who created Naruto's manga or were a part of creating it , so how the hell are they gonna hype up what's " apparently " true .
The manga itself is filled with so many retconned informations , this isn't one of them .
You can't disregard the DB when you can't back up what you say with anything from the manga .
In other words , stop " Trolling "


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## Bookworm (Feb 10, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Retconned informations =/= actual events . Your comparison doesn't even begin to make sense .
> The DB is written by the same people who created Naruto's manga or were a part of creating it , so how the hell are they gonna hype up what's " apparently " true .
> The manga itself is filled with so many retconned informations , this isn't one of them .
> You can't disregard the DB when you can't back up what you say with anything from the manga .
> In other words , stop " Trolling "



Only a troll knows a troll, troll 

What's apparently true could be conjecture based character statements as well as other character statements, like Zetsu saying that Sasuke was like a master with a rock and Itachi was novice with a knife and that's supposedly, maybe why he lost. Besides I don't need to prove that Itachi may not of used 3 day Tsukuyomi.


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## KeyofMiracles (Feb 10, 2017)

Eliyua23 said:


> See that's your own and many forum members interpretation that he needs MS . See you think he NEEDS something to defeat Sasuke when he is in fact the much stronger shinobi and the manga did not make it clear , the only thing that is GOSPEL the words to live by at the conclusion of that fight is that Itachi THREW THE FIGHT , and not only did he THROW THE FIGHT , he did so by fighting back illness , and also while trying to draw Orochimaru out of him Itachi had to accomplish all of these things yet you think he NEEDS MS to defeat Sasuke , so in most battle some arguments people think Itachi needs MS to defeat Jiraiya , Minato , Pain , Tobirama all shinobi much much stronger than Hebi Sasuke yet he would need those same ninjutsu to defeat Hebi Sasuke , what has Itachi told us TOLD something else not left up to subjectivity ALL OF OROCHIMARU's ninjutsu is useless against him and those were the ninjutsu he was utilizing against Itachi question if Sasuke's ninjutsu was so much superior then why didn't he kill Itachi before MS came into play why did in those exchanges did even Zetsu know Itachi wasn't up to par , and you bring up gen and nin but ingnore Itachi's advantages in knowledge , tactics , speed , reaction , strength , taijutsu , chakra control those matter as well and remember this is WITH ILLNESS something he doesn't even have in this thread



He needs it because Sasuke can handle techniques that are stronger than his 3-Tomoe skillset. That's not interpretation. That is exactly what is shown. You repeating the same stupid nonsense over and over and over again isn't going to make it sound any less wrong than it does now. 

-Stop talking about how Itachi was holding back against Sasuke. That's irrelevant. Him holding back isn't proof that at full strength he doesn't need MS to win, and you can't prove that he can win without MS which is why you are arguing this nonsense. 

-Stop talking about Jiraiya, Minato, Pain and Hebi Sasuke. The logic behind all that is stupidly retarded.  EMS Madara needs his strongest move to defeat BSM Naruto and Nagato, yet the power gap between that Naruto and that Nagato are large. Does that change the fact that EMS Madara w/o PS can't beat Nagato?  No you clown. It doesn't.

-Stop talking about Orochimaru. Orochimaru got fodderized by the Sharingan Genjutsu Sasuke handled in it's ultimate form.  Do you expect to be taken seriously when you are arguing nonsense like this? 

Itachi's has an advantage in physical speed, reaction, and Taijutsu. Taijutsu is irrelevant because Sasuke fights with Kenjutsu. Speed and reaction don't make up for the fact that Sasuke is far more durable, physically stronger, has stronger Ninjutsu, and has the unavoidable Kirin that ITACHI CANONICALLY NEEDED SUSANOO TO HANDLE YET YOU AND OTHERS ARE ACTUALLY SITTING AT THAT COMPUTER SCREEN TYPING PARAGRAPHS ON HOW ITACHI DOESN'T NEED MS TO WIN.   My sides hurt yo.

-Tactics? Irrelevant to the outcome of the match. 
-Knowledge? Irrelevant in the same sense.
-Strength? No.  Base Itachi and Base Sasuke are matched in physical strength. Sasuke has CM1 and 2.
-Chakra control?  Is this the best you can do? This is all Itachi supporters do when pushed against the wall. They talk about his superiority in overall irrelevant ass statistics.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 10, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Itachi cutting of a horn isn't anything special because Kabuto didn't even realize he had a horn



 Fact is, Kabuto couldn't counter-attack, he was forced to dodge instead.


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 10, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Sharingan Itachi > Sasuke?!
> 
> Sasuke can break/take genjutsu out of the equation and has a superior overall arsenal and Itachi has absolutely no means of defense against Sasuke's Kirin.
> 
> Wow, 2017 and Itachi wank is still striving.





KeyofMiracles said:


> He needs it because Sasuke can handle techniques that are stronger than his 3-Tomoe skillset. That's not interpretation. That is exactly what is shown. You repeating the same stupid nonsense over and over and over again isn't going to make it sound any less wrong than it does now.
> 
> -Stop talking about how Itachi was holding back against Sasuke. That's irrelevant. Him holding back isn't proof that at full strength he doesn't need MS to win, and you can't prove that he can win without MS which is why you are arguing this nonsense.
> 
> ...



So wait a minute the only thing that's a fact is Itachi is holding back is IRRELEVANT thee only fact being stated thee only thing that was actually stated by the author is irrelevant not its the main fact it's the biggest factor in why the fight played out the way it did , you also forgot to add fighting back illness and TYRING TO DRAW OUT OROCHIMARU the fact you state that is irrelevant means that you are just one of those posters that want to put your own interpretations  of the manga as fact 

That is a bad analogy unless you mean Madara was fighting them being deathly I'll with the sole purpose of trying to expend their chakra and due to them on purpose bad comparison also the fact they are much stronger than Hebi Sasuke is and a fact we have never seen them engage in battle to have any actual evidence on what Madara needed and also the fact the only thing EMS Madara showed outside of taijutsu is PS Susanoo so no your hypothetical straw man attempt is futile give me an actual in manga example 

What fight were you watching was it the fight where Itachi was that throwing Hebi like a rag doll and showed much better CQC skill throughout the manga the one that Sasuke got a hole ripped in his chest from the same Bee that Itachi danced with 

You mean Itachi let the fight progress as far enough where Kirin could be utilized and his MS even enhanced the potency of Kirin itself and this was a Itachi that was purposely trying to expend Sasuke's chakra so Orochimaru and you can't use that argument because Itachi let the fight get that far , don't say it like this was a close battle and Sasuke's trump card pushed Itachi to use Susanoo nope that's not what happened 

Tactics and knowledge played the biggest role in this fight Itachi's , this whole fight was metagamed and strategized to the very end , Nagato said it himself Jiraiya could beat him within more knowledge , Naruto's knowledge of Rinnegan is what made him train for Sage Mode , knowledge is why people get stronger and tactics often are used to defeat the enemy that is what the manga has been telling us since the wave Arc


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## KeyofMiracles (Feb 10, 2017)

Eliyua23 said:


> So wait a minute the only thing that's a fact is Itachi is holding back is IRRELEVANT thee only fact being stated thee only thing that was actually stated by the author is irrelevant not its the main fact it's the biggest factor in why the fight played out the way it did , you also forgot to add fighting back illness and TYRING TO DRAW OUT OROCHIMARU the fact you state that is irrelevant means that you are just one of those posters that want to put your own interpretations  of the manga as fact



What you are saying is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Explain how Itachi holding back changes the fact that he needs the MS to actually defeat Sasuke or don't reply again cause you're just wasting our time here.



> *That is a bad analogy unless you mean Madara was fighting them being deathly I'll with the sole purpose of trying to expend their chakra and due to them on purpose bad comparison also the fact they are much stronger than Hebi Sasuke is and a fact we have never seen them engage in battle to have any actual evidence on what Madara needed and also the fact the only thing EMS Madara showed outside of taijutsu is PS Susanoo so no your hypothetical straw man attempt is futile give me an actual in manga example *



No, this is a perfect analogy. You claim that Itachi needs MS to defeat people stronger than Hebi Sasuke thus he shouldn't need it for Hebi Sasuke. Madara needs PS to defeat people stronger than Nagato thus he shouldn't need it for Nagato, but he does. That is exactly what you stated. Don't try to switch it up now that it's been exposed as being a poor argument.

None of this nonsense you are talking about is relevant.  Is that your go to strategy when pushed against a wall? Incoherent babbling?



> What fight were you watching was it the fight where Itachi was that throwing Hebi like a rag doll and showed much better CQC skill throughout the manga the one that Sasuke got a hole ripped in his chest from the same Bee that Itachi danced with



Itachi never threw anyone like a rag doll in real life. Only in Genjutsu.  Itachi didn't dance w/ V1 B. He fought Base B and retreated once the Seven Swords Dance came out. Don't lie about Manga events because you should know that I'll call you out on it.



> You mean Itachi let the fight progress as far enough where Kirin could be utilized and his MS even enhanced the potency of Kirin itself and this was a Itachi that was purposely trying to expend Sasuke's chakra so Orochimaru and you can't use that argument because Itachi let the fight get that far , don't say it like this was a close battle and Sasuke's trump card pushed Itachi to use Susanoo nope that's not what happened



More irrelevant drivel. Sasuke possesses a technique that Itachi can't counter without MS. That is a fact. Sasuke can use it on his own at any time he wants. That is a fact.



> Tactics and knowledge played the biggest role in this fight Itachi's , this whole fight was metagamed and strategized to the very end , Nagato said it himself Jiraiya could beat him within more knowledge , Naruto's knowledge of Rinnegan is what made him train for Sage Mode , knowledge is why people get stronger and tactics often are used to defeat the enemy that is what the manga has been telling us since the wave Arc



Nagato vs. Jiraiya isn't Itachi vs. Sasuke.  Naruto training for SM isn't Itachi vs. Sasuke. Don't bring up attributes and then fail to explain how they actually matter in this scenario.


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## Dano (Feb 10, 2017)

Trolling said:


> Let's say your right and someone can be a genjutsu while having already countered it, it doesn't matter in Sasuke's case. Sasuke said "this is the end Itachi" while in genjutsu, then he saw through Itachi genjutsu and said "have you gone deaf this is the end! I said this is the end you piece of shit!" and then he killed a genjutsu. *So it's obvious that Sasuke thought he killed the real Itachi*.



Are you so willingly dense as to not consider that Sasuke killed the Itachi in the 1st genjutsu to make him believe he was inside that one? The moment Itachi revealed his counter genjutsu Sasuke revealed his. And no, it doesn't make sense once Sasuke countered the genjutsu, he doesn't believe the Itachi he stabbed is the real one. Again see Kurenai vs Itachi, he let her genjutsu play out and not resist as to led Kurenai thinking she won even if he already countered that genjutsu.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 10, 2017)

@oMeGa1904 

I'm certain that Itachi did lure Sasuke into attacking his clone, but Sasuke was simply powerful enough to surmount Tsukyomi as Itachi predicted. I sincerely doubt it was a Reverse: Genjutsu because the effects would've been illustrated to have been deflected back at Itachi. Instead, Itachi suffered excruciating pain because Sasuke overcame it and Zetsu explicitly stated that.


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## Bookworm (Feb 10, 2017)

oMeGa1904 said:


> Are you so willingly dense as to not consider that Sasuke killed the Itachi in the 1st genjutsu to make him believe he was inside that one? The moment Itachi revealed his counter genjutsu Sasuke revealed his. And no, it doesn't make sense once Sasuke countered the genjutsu, he doesn't believe the Itachi he stabbed is the real one. Again see Kurenai vs Itachi, he let her genjutsu play out and not resist as to led Kurenai thinking she won even if he already countered that genjutsu.



I wasn't talking about when Sasuke killed Itachi here 
*Spoiler*: __ 







, but after that here  That's your interpretation of why Itachi let the genjutsu played out. Itachi may of just wanted Kurenai to get closer to him. Sasuke on the other hand had no reason to kill the Itachi in the chair (genjutsu Itachi) if he knew he was Itachi.


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## Dano (Feb 10, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> @oMeGa1904
> 
> I'm certain that Itachi did lure Sasuke into attacking his clone, but Sasuke was simply powerful enough to surmount Tsukyomi as Itachi predicted. I sincerely doubt it was a Reverse: Genjutsu because the effects would've been illustrated to have been deflected back at Itachi. Instead, Itachi suffered excruciating pain because Sasuke overcame it and Zetsu explicitly stated that.


Are you talking about Tsukuyomi? Cause I was talking about the first barrage of genjutsus between Sasuke and Itachi. About Tsukuyomi yeah sure, Zetsu was the only comment to see the side effects of a broken Tsukuyomi so I guess I'll go with Zetsus interpretation.


Trolling said:


> I wasn't talking about when Sasuke killed Itachi here
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



Sasuke didn't even intend to kill that genjutsu Itachi, he avoided fatal organs to ask, he was asking in a torturous way, and he's making his speech seeing thru all Itachi's genjutsus.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 10, 2017)

oMeGa1904 said:


> Are you talking about Tsukuyomi? Cause I was talking about the first barrage of genjutsus between Sasuke and Itachi. About Tsukuyomi yeah sure, Zetsu was the only comment to see the side effects of a broken Tsukuyomi so I guess I'll go with Zetsus interpretation.



Ah, I see. Yeah, Zetsu even told the reader that Sasuke and Itachi were exchanging Genjutsu relentlessly, so that's nothing to really discuss here. If Sasuke circumvented Tsukyomi, he busts through all of Itachi's Genjutsu, just common sense.


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## Bookworm (Feb 10, 2017)

oMeGa1904 said:


> Sasuke didn't even intend to kill that genjutsu Itachi, he avoided fatal organs to ask, he was asking in a torturous way, and he's making his speech seeing thru all Itachi's genjutsus.


It doesn't matter even if he didn't kill genjutsu Itachi. Sasuke said it was the end, then stabbed genjutsu Itachi near his heart, he could have easily of killed Itachi from there if it were really Itachi. 

Yeah Sasuke did say that, but that scene before it indicates it took him some time to see through it.


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## Dano (Feb 10, 2017)

Trolling said:


> It doesn't matter even if he didn't kill genjutsu Itachi.



So first you try to rely on this very "fact" (incorrect info) he tried to kill that genjutsu chair!Itachi to prove some "theory" (headcanon) and then you backed on that one. I proved to you he didn't try to kill him.



Trolling said:


> Sasuke said it was the end,



He said he had "one last thing to ask".



Trolling said:


> then stabbed genjutsu Itachi near his heart, he could have easily of killed Itachi from there if it were really Itachi.



Yeah it's obvious.



Trolling said:


> Yeah Sasuke did say that, but that scene before it indicates it took him some time to see through it.



So here is the thing. If you count in the amount of panels one is inside the other genjutsu's "reality" then it works both ways. I can claim Sasuke had Itachi inside his genjutsu from all that scene talking about "Madara" till the "counter reality" comes into play. As i already said Kurenai and Itachi's fight is the closest to it. If you want to present a theory about it better make a thread, instead of trying to shot thru it with manga panels.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 10, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Fact is, Kabuto couldn't counter-attack, he was forced to dodge instead.


Kabuto didn't need to counter-attack, he's already demonstrated that he's physically the superior specimen when compared with Itachi. If you need proof, I'd advise looking at the two times he skewered Itachi. Itachi has top tier base speed but lets not get ahead of ourselves, SM Kabuto is on another level.


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 10, 2017)

KeyofMiracles said:


> What you are saying is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Explain how Itachi holding back changes the fact that he needs the MS to actually defeat Sasuke or don't reply again cause you're just wasting our time here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Prove to me where it was stated or shown that Itachi NEEDED MS to defeat Sasuke or it was in fact the Ms that made him stronger , why wasn't that specifically said . 

It's a poor analogy because we never seen them fight , we haven't seen a lot of Madara's arsenal outside of Susanoo and Madara wouldn't be fighting illness , holding back , and purposely trying to draw out there chakra those are also factors that need to add up in your analogy so no it's not find a fight that actually happened in the manga where these same exact things would apply not some made up scenario used to further your argument 

See more excuses both engaged Bee Sasuke rushed in a hole in his chest , Itachi was able to maneuver and courier his attacks he was able to tussle with KCM for moment 

1. Kirin is a jutsu that needs to be set up within battle it's not something he can use out the blue 

2. The fight has to get that far for him to be allowed to use it , Naruto had FRS but it didn't get that far against Itachi , Orochimaru had other techniques it didn't get that far , Orochimaru had 8th Branch for Sasuke didn't get that far , 3rd Raikage had black lightening didn't get that far 

Huh Knowledge and tactics played a role in all those fights yet you say they are irrelevant this manga has various battles where tactics are employed , Itachi , Naruto , Bee vs Nagano implied tactics youre conveniently ignoring facts showed in the manage to come to your own conclusions


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 10, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kabuto didn't need to counter-attack, he's already demonstrated that he's physically the superior specimen when compared with Itachi. If you need proof, I'd advise looking at the two times he skewered Itachi. Itachi has top tier base speed but lets not get ahead of ourselves, SM Kabuto is on another level.



Kabuto immediately attacked Sasuke with White Rage knowing that Itachi would sacrifice himself to protect him and subsequently attempted to subjugate Itachi. Later, we see Kabuto exploit Itachi's benevolence by forcing Itachi to protect Sasuke against Muki Tensei and attempted to subjugate him once again when Itachi was still crippled. Kabuto did not seem like the guy who considered himself far above him; he valued him as the perfect Edo-Tensei and attempted to target Itachi at the most opportune moments, even resorting to sly tactics including targeting the weakling as Haku did against Naruto in an attempt to gain the upperhand. Taking such extreme measures is not necessary if Kabuto truly believed that he was the vastly superior specimen.

Even Itachi conveys that Kabuto was attempting to seize control over both of them before Itachi and Sasuke acquired knowledge on Kabuto's jutsu. [1] Kabuto was in no position to let Itachi escape scot-free, not even close. If Kabuto was capable of retaliating, he would have. Those two instances that Kabuto skewered Itachi was for the sake of Izanami, something I had proven to you multiple times and I can easily outline instances that denote this.


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 10, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Kabuto immediately attacked Sasuke with White Rage knowing that Itachi would sacrifice himself to protect him and subsequently attempted to subjugate Itachi. Later, we see Kabuto exploit Itachi's benevolence by forcing Itachi to protect Sasuke against Muki Tensei and attempted to subjugate him once again when Itachi was still crippled. Kabuto did not seem like the guy who considered himself far above him; he valued him as the perfect Edo-Tensei and attempted to target Itachi at the most opportune moments, even resorting to sly tactics including targeting the weakling as Haku did against Naruto in an attempt to gain the upperhand. Taking such extreme measures is not necessary if Kabuto truly believed that he was the vastly superior specimen.
> 
> Even Itachi conveys that Kabuto was attempting to seize control over both of them before Itachi and Sasuke acquired knowledge on Kabuto's jutsu. [1] Kabuto was in no position to let Itachi escape scot-free, not even close. If Kabuto was capable of retaliating, he would have. Those two instances that Kabuto skewered Itachi was for the sake of Izanami, something I had proven to you multiple times and I can easily outline instances that denote this.


Itachi got skewered before he...



Yeah, ughh, no.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 10, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> Itachi got skewered before he...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, ughh, no.



I disagree.


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## Matty (Feb 10, 2017)

If Itachi has the same stamina he loses, if he has pt 1 stamina he should be good with pretty high dif


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## Kyu (Feb 11, 2017)

Wait, Itachi blitzing Hebi Sasuke was an anime-exclusive scene, correct? Or did it occur during their genjutsu faggotry? 



Matty said:


> If Itachi has the same stamina he loses, if he has pt 1 stamina he should be good with pretty high dif



Terminally ill Itachi actually outlasted Sasuke. His stamina isn't _that_ shitty.


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## uchihakil (Feb 11, 2017)

Kyu said:


> Wait, Itachi blitzing Hebi Sasuke was an anime-exclusive scene, correct? Or did it occur during their genjutsu faggotry?
> 
> 
> 
> Terminally ill Itachi actually outlasted Sasuke. His stamina isn't _that_ shitty.



Naah it did happen in the manga


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## Blu-ray (Feb 11, 2017)

Kyu said:


> Wait, Itachi blitzing Hebi Sasuke was an anime-exclusive scene, correct? Or did it occur during their genjutsu faggotry?


The latter. Everything after the panel pans to his Mangekyo was genjutsu as they're in the same position after as they were before.


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## Dano (Feb 11, 2017)

Kyu said:


> Wait, Itachi blitzing Hebi Sasuke was an anime-exclusive scene, correct? Or did it occur during their genjutsu faggotry?


If you are referring to these scenes.


oMeGa1904 said:


> This scene happened in a genjutsu. In which he was superior than him in taijutsu. Which was reiterated by Sasuke and Zetsu.
> 
> The stamp to the wall scene happened inside Tsukuyomi. You can see the activation here. Look at Sasuke's position he's front the gate. When Tsukuyomi ended he still was in front of the gate not by the wall. Never by the wall.



Then yes inside genjutsu.


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## uchihakil (Feb 11, 2017)

Itachi is fucking great, dude planned everything in the brothers fight
> pushed sasuke to bring out oro
> sealed amaterasu in his eyes

Yes he planned all dat shit, and nothing sasuke has can overwhelm itachi. If this is really with KILLING INTENT (itachi does'nt even fight with killing intent and he's already a beast). That means itachis performance would greatly change to high pressure
- Intent to kill means itachi can resort to uchiha kinjutsu (izanami is a KO to sasuke or a minute of immortality would make itachi wtf stomp sasuke within that time) 
- Itachi is a better clone feinter
- itachi is faster
- itachi is smarter
- itachi can disarm sasuke from his kusanagi
- itachi can read his opponent (like he did against kabuto)
- sasuke's fire > itachis fire, but then again, itachi has suiton
- manda cant really be summoned in a none boss summon fight cuz he will not even be uselful and itachi can break manda out of genjutsu and manda would not fight for sasuke
- itachi has fucking killing intent
- if this fight is based on plot, and itachi really wants to get EMS, then he would resort to izanagi as he knows he will get eternal light in the end, so losing one eye wont be a problem
- itachi can weave handseal faster than sasuke knows whats going on.

  This will be a high pressure game in favour of itachi

Yes itachi is gonna beat hebi sasuke

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## Android (Feb 11, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Itachi is fucking great


Lmao , ok , you need to suppress your inner fanboy , cuz this is embarrassing  


uchihakil said:


> - itachi can read his opponent (like he did against kabuto)


Kabuto said Itachi can read people's hearts , feeling etc etc , not that he can read his opponent's thinking , what he said literally has nothing to do with combat

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Santoryu (Feb 11, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Because Hebi sasuke is literally better in every way bar a minscule edge in itachis favor in the category of speed (which is all but eliminated when sasuke uses his CS)  and an edge in tactics for itachi (maybe, sasuke is quite crafty as well, they could tie here)
> 
> Sasuke holds the edge of itachi in "Equal Forms" (meaning both base, both 3T, both MS etc) in literally every category aside from speed, which goes to itachi by a small degree, and intellect which they are damn close in.


Have to disagree here.

Itachi has the edge in taijutsu and genjutsu too. There is no proof that CS closes that gap.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## KeyofMiracles (Feb 11, 2017)

Eliyua23 said:


> Prove to me where it was stated or shown that Itachi NEEDED MS to defeat Sasuke or it was in fact the Ms that made him stronger , why wasn't that specifically said .
> 
> It's a poor analogy because we never seen them fight , we haven't seen a lot of Madara's arsenal outside of Susanoo and Madara wouldn't be fighting illness , holding back , and purposely trying to draw out there chakra those are also factors that need to add up in your analogy so no it's not find a fight that actually happened in the manga where these same exact things would apply not some made up scenario used to further your argument
> 
> ...



Sasuke can handle Itachi w/ certain MS abilities thus a weaker Itachi isn't beating him. End of story. Now actually address this or don't quote me.

No, it's not a poor analogy. Power is power. Don't make excuses now that your logic has been exposed to be faulty. You keep on going on moaning about this illness bullshit when that is completely separate from the analogy. 

 Don't be stupid pal. V1 B and Base B are not the same thing. End of story. Tussling w/ KCM isn't a feat worth mentioning. Naruto doesn't have super strength in that mode nor is he some kind of Taijutsu master and his top speed is Shunshin, which is the most impressive part about it.

-Irrelevant. Can it be used. Yes or no? That is the question.  Yes, it can be used. That's a fact.

-Itachi can't take Sasuke out before he can use Kirin.  

Keywords "THOSE FIGHTS". Those fights are not this fight. Those don't play a role in every fight. Instead of addressing what's at hand here you keep on making stupid analogies, making irrelevant points, and talking about every other match up except the one this thread is about.


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## Matty (Feb 11, 2017)

Kyu said:


> Terminally ill Itachi actually outlasted Sasuke. His stamina isn't _that_ shitty.



Nah I know, but I just think that he needs more stamina to wear Sasuke down a little. He doesnt have the big guns he usually would, so he may have an even more drawn out fight


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## uchihakil (Feb 11, 2017)

Matty said:


> Nah I know, but I just think that he needs more stamina to wear Sasuke down a little. He doesnt have the big guns he usually would, so he may have an even more drawn out fight



yea but him not using MS techniques means he can spam more attacks cuz MS techniques are chakra taxing not to mention Susano


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## uchihakil (Feb 11, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Lmao , ok , you need to suppress your inner fanboy , cuz this is embarrassing
> 
> Kabuto said Itachi can read people's hearts , feeling etc etc , not that he can read his opponent's thinking , what he said literally has nothing to do with combat





GuidingThunder said:


> Lmao , ok , you need to suppress your inner fanboy , cuz this is embarrassing
> 
> Kabuto said Itachi can read people's hearts , feeling etc etc , not that he can read his opponent's thinking , what he said literally has nothing to do with combat



waiting to hear how sasuke beat izanagi or izanami

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 3


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## Matty (Feb 11, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> yea but him not using MS techniques means he can spam more attacks cuz MS techniques are chakra taxing not to mention Susano



That is true, wasn't thinking of that


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## Dr. White (Feb 11, 2017)

sharingan is not a full counter, there is s


GuidingThunder said:


> Kabuto said Itachi can read people's hearts , feeling etc etc , not that he can read his opponent's thinking , what he said literally has nothing to do with combat


Except Kabuto was directly talking about Itachi's exceptional battlefield awareness even in comparison to sharingan users which was directly related to combat and Itachi seeing through Kabuto's usage of White Rage 

This was alsospeaking on Itachi's whole nagato fight where he used his brain much better than Bee and Nardo used their brawn

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## Android (Feb 11, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> sharingan is not a full counter, there is s
> 
> Except Kabuto was directly talking about Itachi's exceptional battlefield awareness even in comparison to sharingan users which was directly related to combat and Itachi seeing through Kabuto's usage of White Rage
> 
> This was alsospeaking on Itachi's whole nagato fight where he used his brain much better than Bee and Nardo used their brawn


Shut up .
No one said he can't do tricks in battles , even part 01 Naruto can formulate strategies and whatnot .
However , in this fight , in this battle , he is against an opponent who has a high IQ , so his advantage is nulled .
Kabuto said he can read people's hearts and intentions , clearly referring to him knowing that he will attack Sasuke instead of him , that's all , it's not like he can read what's his opponent's next move or what is he thinking all the time or something like that , and if you disagree then freaking prove it . The rest is the same fanfic bullshit you itachi fans love to make when running out of options trying to support this pathetic character .


uchihakil said:


> waiting to hear how sasuke beat izanagi or izanami


Wow now Itachi fans are saying he needs to sacrifice one of his eyes to win this battle . Man , talk about being desperate

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Dr. White (Feb 11, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Shut up .
> No one said he can't do tricks in battles , even part 01 Naruto can formulate strategies and whatnot .
> However , in this fight , in this battle , he is against an opponent who has a high IQ , so his advantage is nulled .
> Kabuto said he can read people's hearts and intentions , clearly referring to him knowing that he will attack Sasuke instead of him , that's all , it's not like he can read what's his opponent's next move or what is he thinking all the time or something like that , and if you disagree then freaking prove it . The rest is the same fanfic bullshit you itachi fans love to make when running out of options trying to support this pathetic character .


lmao nice rebuttal. You literally just tried to make the claim that Kabuto's hype had nothing to do with battle, and now you're backtracking and switching stances and trying to downplay the intelligence aspect of fights which has been highlighted multiple times as vital. 

lmao at Sasuke being intelligent nulling Itachi's intelligence. Itachi is not only smarter and more experienced but has clone feinted someone as smart as Kabuto who had a plethora of sensing. Said clone feinting being the link to Izanami and the reason the Uchiha bro's won. Simple tactic netting big results. Same shit with double vision vs Nagato, he countered that shit with kunai. 

"It's not like he can read his opponents next move" That is literally what Itachi did to Kabuto and what Kabuto hyped him for  . He had no knowledge on WR and still read how Kabuto was going to use it and countered it. Same whit with mukai tensei except Itachi actually read it wrong and went to protect Sasuke not realizing Kabuto wouldn't harm him. But alone he obviously would have covered himself. Talking about the same guy who danced an opponent as dangerous as Hebi Sauce while termially ill isn't great at reading into people's moves and reacting appropriately 

The whole bottom portion of your post is irrelevant ad hominem and ironically a tactic used by your desperation in getting stomped by actual debating .

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Trojan (Feb 11, 2017)

Why do people give Izanagi to itachi anyway? 
When did he show this jutsu exactly?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Serene Grace (Feb 11, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi is not only smarter and more experienced but has clone feinted someone as smart as Kabuto who had a plethora of sensing.


Stop using thisKabuto has to divide his attention against two ms users he also lacked the battle experience, to the point where he forget he had horns in the first place, also had his eyes closed which limited his overall awareness


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 11, 2017)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Sasuke can handle Itachi w/ certain MS abilities thus a weaker Itachi isn't beating him. End of story. Now actually address this or don't quote me.
> 
> No, it's not a poor analogy. Power is power. Don't make excuses now that your logic has been exposed to be faulty. You keep on going on moaning about this illness bullshit when that is completely separate from the analogy.
> 
> ...



" you would've been killed if he was serious that's for certain " 

You're not grasping the simple logic that Itachi did everything specifically to push Sasuke w/o killing him and drawing Orochimaru out all at the same time accelerating his death , that was a perfect time for Obito to say you were only weaker because you haven't acquired the MS but that didn't happen .

Yes it is because you're not being fair I'm citing a fight that actually happened IN THE MANGA real evidence an your bringing up a hypothetical scenario that has never happened then telling me how you THINK it will play out based of your own bias opinion , and also ignoring the specific conditions that happened in this fight , and also ignoring we have ONLY seen EMS Madara using Susanoo and don't know much about his aresenal beyond that 

Huh ? Sasuke got his shit pushed in by 7 sword stance , while Itachi calmly danced around it , wrong he had speed that had surpassed Ei and pushed back a bijuu bomb , he was certainly a very adept CQC fighter 

He has Kirin but the fact of the matter is takes time to set up that would be like me saying Itachi could use Izanami of the bat no its impractical and you don't know if if gets that far to utilize 

? You said Itachi having tactics and knowledge over Sasuke are irrelevant yet Itachi planned and organized the entire fight to play out the way it did and have cited examples where knowledge and tactics play a role in fights in the manga

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Rai (Feb 11, 2017)

Itachi solos


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## uchihakil (Feb 11, 2017)

@Hussain because itachi studied the uchiha monument cuz thats how he knows izanami meaning he us knowledgable on izanagi as well, so yea he can use it if neccesary, and BTW,i'm not saying itachi needs to lose an eye to win, but worse come to worst, he will sacrifice an eye to win, after all, this is a death battle, so why dafuck wont he resort to that if it means saving his life?? still waiting for a counter to izanagi


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## Trojan (Feb 11, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> @Hussain because itachi studied the uchiha monument cuz thats how he knows izanami meaning he us knowledgable on izanagi as well, so yea he can use it if neccesary, and BTW,i'm not saying itachi needs to lose an eye to win, but worse come to worst, he will sacrifice an eye to win, after all, this is a death battle, so why dafuck wont he resort to that if it means saving his life?? still waiting for a counter to izanagi



I am not sure how is this proof anything. 
Minato has Wind-style and he created Rasengan, that means he can use FRS? 
He has SM and he is Jiraiya's student and has frogs contract. Do you see anyone using Jiraiya's jutsu as Minato's in any thread?

Hiruzen is stated to know all of Konoha's jutsu. Do you see anyone going around the threads and say he will use FTG, ET, Shadow banding, 8 Gates....etc etc?

Itachi, just like the others, shouldn't be given jutsu that he never used, or even stated to have.


Also, Izanagi requires a big amount of chakra to use. We don't know if itachi can use it, nor do we know for how long (if we gave it to him). Danzo, with Hashi's cells was only able to last for 1 minute for each izanagi.

If you want to give it to itachi, can you prove for how long he can activate it? Because otherwise, he is only avoiding death for some few extra seconds.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 11, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Shut up .
> No one said he can't do tricks in battles , even part 01 Naruto can formulate strategies and whatnot .
> However , in this fight , in this battle , he is against an opponent who has a high IQ , so his advantage is nulled .



No offense, that was a horrendous rebuttal. There's a fine line between Part 1 Naruto contriving strategies and Itachi formulating a multi-layered strategy; intricate planning in advance to initiate a jutsu that has very meticulous requirements. There's certainly a perspicuous divide between Part 1 Naruto or most ninja in general in comparison to Itachi, most ninja plan in the moment whereas Itachi can analyze the nuances of an opponent's fighting style, use it against them, and plans numerous strategies in advance. Planning in advance was a prominent trait that Shikamaru held and is the reason why he's the most profound tactician in the manga. [1] Itachi accomplished the same feat and "coaxed" Kabuto into his Izanami trap which is why Shikamaru garnered to much praise on tactical debut.

 "He is against an opponent who has a high IQ, so his advantage is nulled," is baseless not to mention very vague. Kabuto admitted Itachi read all of his moves, Itachi forced him into a position where he'd be subjected to Itachi's same bunshin tactic twice; grabbing Sasuke's blade * again * and lunging at Itachi's clone * again *, and executed a technique with such nuanced preparations. Seriously, is this Troyse22 because this the kind of response I'd expect, deliberately glossing over points that you're making simply because you have no argument, but is desperate in deriding a specific character. Honestly, I'm not even sure what to make out of this statement to begin with. Sure, Kabuto has a high IQ, but how does this pertain to nullifying Itachi's advantage? It simply doesn't because Kabuto was humiliated by an obtuse ninja such as Naruto, so mentioning his IQ is just fruitless.



> Kabuto said he can read people's hearts and intentions , clearly referring to him knowing that he will attack Sasuke instead of him , that's all , it's not like he can read what's his opponent's next move or what is he thinking all the time or something like that , and if you disagree then freaking prove it . The rest is the same fanfic bullshit you itachi fans love to make when running out of options trying to support this pathetic character .
> 
> Wow now Itachi fans are saying he needs to sacrifice one of his eyes to win this battle . Man , talk about being desperate



 No, it was referencing his battle awareness as a whole, this is explicitly why Kabuto questions if Itachi was a sensor and retracts his remark and then asserts that it's because Itachi's unique ocular prowess that essentially enabled him to simulate a sensor's reactions. We see this specific ability come in handy during their battle and led to resolution of the battle:


Itachi tricks Kabuto into attacking him which is explicitly why Itachi deliberately attempted to counter Tayuya's genjutsu at that moment.
Purposely humiliates Kabuto and then subsequently states that he's beginning to activate Izanami, essentially nudging Kabuto and telling him to attack him at that particular moment; creating an opening through performing an unnecessary seal for Izanami was crucial for this.
Sasuke immediately responds by flicking his blade to Kabuto; enabling Kabuto to snatch it. This occurred previously and was pivotal for Itachi's bunshin feint; the same move Itachi was trying to replicate.
Convinces Kabuto to lunge Sasuke's blade at him, thereby initiating Izanami.
 Things to point out is that Itachi clarifies that Izanami was activated earlier, illustrating that the seal he used in #2 was just a false pretense. Itachi did not need to use a seal for a jutsu he literally activated previously, that's illogical. Given the context, he had done so because he was luring Kabuto in and creating an opening for him to strike. By doing so, Sasuke would throw his blade and would enable Kabuto to snatch it as Kabuto did previously prior to Itachi being stabbed, so then Itachi could initiate Izanami.

 This is no coincidence, the series of a few exchanges that fallaciously illustrate Itachi's inferiority was used as a means to initiate Izanami. There's literally no logic in, "Itachi was skewered easily," yet by doing so, he ensnared Kabuto in his genjutsu a few panels later. He predicted everything and needed to because Izanami's preparations.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 11, 2017)

@GuidingThunder 

How rude! How fuckin rude of you cctr9! 

Dislike me and without a proper rebuttal!? This is blasphemy! I am deeply offended by your response!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Feb 11, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> @GuidingThunder
> 
> How rude! How fuckin rude of you cctr9!
> 
> Dislike me and without a proper rebuttal!? This is blasphemy! I am deeply offended by your response!



- You used to do the same move with me before . So why the fuck are complaining about me doing it now ? 
- Your post is too damn long . And i don't like long extended debates (You know this already)
- You still didn't fucking reply to my post in the other thread , so why are you exactly expecting me to give a rebuttal here ?


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## uchihakil (Feb 11, 2017)

Hussain said:


> I am not sure how is this proof anything.
> Minato has Wind-style and he created Rasengan, that means he can use FRS?
> He has SM and he is Jiraiya's student and has frogs contract. Do you see anyone using Jiraiya's jutsu as Minato's in any thread?
> 
> ...



Dude, itachi studied the uchiha kinjutsu, so he knows it cuz its a secrete technique from HIS clan which he has knowledge of, its a different case if i say kakashi can use izanagi, but itachi is not only a member of the clan that uses it, but also he was said to have studied their clans monument so saying anything like he cant use it is absurd when he has shown that he can use other kinjutsu (izanami). izanagi was used by other members of the uchiha who have'nt awakened MS yet you think itachi does'nt have the reserve to use the technique? when danzou was spamming it? you think danzou has 10x more chakra than itachi??  you are obviously hating


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## uchihakil (Feb 11, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> @GuidingThunder
> 
> How rude! How fuckin rude of you cctr9!
> 
> Dislike me and without a proper rebuttal!? This is blasphemy! I am deeply offended by your response!



Thats how the dude is *smh*

Reactions: Agree 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 11, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> - You used to do the same move with me before . So why the fuck are complaining about me doing it now ?
> - Your post is too damn long . And i don't like long extended debates (You know this already)
> - You still didn't fucking reply to my post in the other thread , so why are you exactly expecting me to give a rebuttal here ?



 I actually will, but no one refutes everything immediately.

 Aside from that, you gave me a long shitstorm in our current debate, so please don't give me this bullshit.


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## Android (Feb 11, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> you gave me a long shitstorm in our current debate


Where ??


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## Trojan (Feb 11, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Dude, itachi studied the uchiha kinjutsu, so he knows it cuz its a secrete technique from HIS clan which he has knowledge of, its a different case if i say kakashi can use izanagi, but itachi is not only a member of the clan that uses it, but also he was said to have studied their clans monument so saying anything like he cant use it is absurd when he has shown that he can use other kinjutsu (izanami). izanagi was used by other members of the uchiha who have'nt awakened MS yet you think itachi does'nt have the reserve to use the technique? when danzou was spamming it? you think danzou has 10x more chakra than itachi??  you are obviously hating



1- You are repeating the same shit. We know itachi "studied" their history.  Minato did not learn under Jiriaya? Hiruzen did not study Konoha history? We even have a statement that he DOES know all the jutsu, but no one go around given him those jutsu in any thread. 

2- Danzo has Hashi's cells, which makes Koto being used twice a day, instead of once in every 10 years. 
And with Oro improvements, he was only able to use it for 1 minute.

I said I will go with you that itachi has Izanagi, can you tell us for how long he can use it, and proof the length?


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## Baroxio (Feb 11, 2017)

Itachi can make clones, Sasuke can't. If Itachi makes a clone right before he engages Sasuke in a genjutsu war, then a bloodlusted Itachi clone can simply walk up and slit Sasuke's neck while the two are otherwise incapacitated.

So Itachi certainly has an avenue of victory here. But I'm not gonna sit here and say that Itachi wins 100% (or really even a comfortable 50%) of the time when Sasuke has some genjutsu resistance as well as Kirin, which Itachi has no real way of negating (aside from another instantaneous clone switch, but I'll give Sasuke the benefit of the doubt that his ultimate technique doesn't get trolled by being spent on a clone).


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 11, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> Where ??





			
				cctr9 said:
			
		

> Inconsistency , does not mean we disregard the manga panels when trying to gauge the size of something in relative to something else , not when something is so blatantly freaking abvious like Kurama being smaller than the Juubi for example  . Yes Naruto's BM size differs between chapter in relative to Naruto , but when comparing to other things like Sasuke's Susanoo , other Bijuu for example , it's the same freaking size , ALWAYS , so do me a favor and stop bringing up irrelevant drivel . Naruto's Bijuu Mode = Hachibi = EMS Sasuke's Susanoo in size . End of story .
> We only saw Aoda in action once , the entire freaking chapter the portrayal of his size remains the same in relative to Sasuke's Susanoo . The only way your dumb stance about Hydra >>> Manda in size could fit is if Sasuke was the size of Aoda's head , because then , that would mean he would be the size of one of Hydra's heads , like how Orochimaru is . But that's not the case because Shinobi are always shown to be much much smaller than a Boss Snake's head . Always .
> Sasuke is small dot in relative to Aoda's head . Fact .
> Orochimaru , a human , is the size of one of Hydra's heads . Fact .
> ...


 
 You have a lot to say, ehhh cctr9?


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## Android (Feb 11, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> You have a lot to say, ehhh cctr9?


That's what you call a shitstorm ? 
Go to your friend KoM , he'll tell ya what a shitstorm really is .
Now back on topic :
Sasuke wins mid difficulty at max .


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 11, 2017)

Itachi loses. Just like with Kakashi, Itachi needs the MS to take Hebi Sasuke. He held back by not using Susanoo. 

However, with no MS: Sasuke will stomp Itachi ITT.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Dr. White (Feb 11, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> The bold is irrelevant, as I didn't refer to any of that in my claim.
> 
> Kabuto lacked the battle experience, to the point where he forget he had horns in the first place, hence why Itachi even hit himhe was reacting in the sense that he never had horns hence why only hsi horns were hit. I'm not downplaying Itachi's battle intelligence. He's clearly one of the best strategist, and tactician in this show.


The horns had nothing to do with battle experience though. The whole horn situation was Kabuto erroneously believing Itachi had got into CqC with him in order to injure Kabuto with the sword cause he lacked knowledge on Izanami. Nothing about the horn scenario implies Kabuto's sensing was somewhat mitigated. The only thing it implies is as I said earlier: A.) Kabuto is bullshitting in the moment (he literally thought he was untouchable and "the closest person to the sage") as to not eat his crow, or B.) Kabuto was legitimately not  used to his Dragon morphology and despite dodging the katana forgot about the extra inches he needed to compensate for.


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## Dano (Feb 11, 2017)

Being able to learn the theory of it is different than using it in practice. Izanagi's theory was learned by Sasuke against Danzo and he still not displayed such feat. Itachi conveniently had knowledge of how Izanagi and Izanami works and did the second one practically. Izanami is useless against Hebi!Sasuke it only works against someone who denies his reality. He didn't deny his, even in his conversation against Itachi he acknowledge everything was a reality. It won't work on him, only against specific individuals. Even if he had Izanagi, which i doubt, Sasuke could counter it with Oral rebirth in the worst occasion. Genjutsus wont work against Hebi Sasuke, all Itachi's genjutsus are visual.


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## uchihakil (Feb 12, 2017)

oMeGa1904 said:


> Being able to learn the theory of it is different than using it in practice. Izanagi's theory was learned by Sasuke against Danzo and he still not displayed such feat. Itachi conveniently had knowledge of how Izanagi and Izanami works and did the second one practically. Izanami is useless against Hebi!Sasuke it only works against someone who denies his reality. He didn't deny his, even in his conversation against Itachi he acknowledge everything was a reality. It won't work on him, only against specific individuals. Even if he had Izanagi, which i doubt, Sasuke could counter it with Oral rebirth in the worst occasion. Genjutsus wont work against Hebi Sasuke, all Itachi's genjutsus are visual.



He can put him (sasuke) for thinking he can beat him (itachi), izanami is a concept that requires one to actually know his opponent or goal, and you can set up the rules for it (e.g kcm naruto can be put inside izanami cuz he thinks he can save everyone when in reality he really can't) thats how izanami works, anyways, itachi rushes sasuke with exploding clones followed by shuriken and kunai slashes, heavy taijutsu and speed to wreck sasuke before he gets the chance to even think, bumrush the living hebi out of him till he's dead


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 12, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> He can put him (sasuke) for thinking he can beat him (itachi), izanami is a concept that requires one to actually know his opponent or goal, and you can set up the rules for it (e.g kcm naruto can be put inside izanami cuz he thinks he can save everyone when in reality he really can't) thats how izanami works, anyways, itachi rushes sasuke with exploding clones followed by shuriken and kunai slashes, heavy taijutsu and speed to wreck sasuke before he gets the chance to even think, bumrush the living hebi out of him till he's dead



 Izanami is designed those who literally defy their destiny and even deviate from who they are. Naruto doesn't do that; he's already established to not care what destiny entails for him. He is not a prisoner to destiny in the same sense that Kabuto and Obito was.

Reactions: Like 1


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## uchihakil (Feb 12, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Izanami is designed those who literally defy their destiny and even deviate from who they are. Naruto doesn't do that; he's already established to not care what destiny entails for him. He is not a prisoner to destiny in the same sense that Kabuto and Obito was.



Oookay then, anyways, in this Fight, he (itachi) does'nt need all that, as i've stated earlier, he bumrushes sasuke and leaves him with no chance to even weave seals

Reactions: Disagree 3


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## Android (Feb 12, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> e.g kcm naruto can be put inside izanami cuz he thinks he can save everyone when in reality he really can't

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sadgoob (Feb 12, 2017)

Itachi clone feinted Hebi Sasuke during their shuriken match. The real Itachi was completely hidden while the clone held Sasuke. The real Itachi then chose to come out _*in front*_ so that Sasuke could see him coming, react, and defend with his snake body. Had he attacked from the blindspot and thrown a kunai into the back of his head, I think Sasuke would basically die.

IMO Itachi's physical superiority was still too high for Hebi Sasuke. We saw Edo Itachi trade even blows with KCM Naruto and Sage Kabuto in taijutsu. Sage Kabuto being someone who dodged a Susano'o arrow that Kakashi (top tier reflexes himself) couldn't even move to dodge. Itachi is just too fast with clone feints, weapons, and jutsu for Hebi Sasuke to adequately defend in close quarters (unless Itachi is weakened and intentionally losing.) Even EMS Sasuke was reflexively slower than Itachi against Kabuto.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 12, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Itachi clone feinted Hebi Sasuke during their shuriken match. The real Itachi was completely hidden while the clone held Sasuke. The real Itachi then chose to come out _*in front*_ so that Sasuke could see him coming, react, and defend with his snake body. Had he attacked from the blindspot and thrown a kunai into the back of his head, I think Sasuke would basically die.
> 
> IMO Itachi's physical superiority was still too high for Hebi Sasuke. We saw Edo Itachi trade even blows with KCM Naruto and Sage Kabuto in taijutsu. Sage Kabuto being someone who dodged a Susano'o arrow that Kakashi (top tier reflexes himself) couldn't even move to dodge. Itachi is just too fast with clone feints, weapons, and jutsu for Hebi Sasuke to adequately defend in close quarters (unless Itachi is weakened and intentionally losing.) Even EMS Sasuke was reflexively slower than Itachi against Kabuto.


This happened more due to Itachi's superiority in taijutsu than his actual speed, it was both things, not saying it wouldn't happen again but this was only able to happen because Sasuke sucked at taijutsu.


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## t0xeus (Feb 12, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Itachi clone feinted Hebi Sasuke during their shuriken match. The real Itachi was completely hidden while the clone held Sasuke. The real Itachi then chose to come out _*in front*_ so that Sasuke could see him coming, react, and defend with his snake body. Had he attacked from the* blindspot* and thrown a kunai into the back of his head, I think Sasuke would basically die.


imo you could make an argument that moving into Sasuke's blindspot wasn't possible at that time - since he would see him

Itachi had to attack from the front where he could hide behind the shuriken skirmish

there's no explanation for why he didn't attack from blindspot then


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 12, 2017)

Itachi knew he wasn't going to push Sasuke without the MS, unlike his his defenders he was fully aware that Hebi Sasuke would beat him without the MS.


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## Dano (Feb 12, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> *He can put him (sasuke) for thinking he can beat him (itachi)*,



That's not denying fate, that's just reality.



uchihakil said:


> izanami is a concept that requires one to actually know his opponent or goal, and you can set up the rules for it (e.g kcm naruto can be put inside izanami cuz he thinks he can save everyone when in reality he really can't) thats how izanami works,



If it'd work with any setup goal, it'd be practical to any fight. It'd be the most utilized jutsu to win against any enemy since every fight is a setup goal from the get go. Itachi says it's very specific to people and it's impractical.

Here:


UchihaX28 said:


> Izanami is designed those who literally defy their destiny and even deviate from who they are. Naruto doesn't do that; he's already established to not care what destiny entails for him. He is not a prisoner to destiny in the same sense that Kabuto and Obito was.




I think you are all forgetting Hebi!Sasuke has CS v1 and v2. How is Itachi's superior ability in Taijutsu compete with Sasuke's CS. If this were only 3T Sasuke, he loses, but it's Hebi one.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> This happened more due to Itachi's superiority in taijutsu than his actual speed, it was both things, not saying it wouldn't happen again but this was only able to happen because Sasuke sucked at taijutsu.



During the shuriken clash (which Sasuke used shuriken summoning because he also lacked the natural speed there,) Itachi replaced himself with a clone without Sasuke noticing. There's a definite speed factor in there much moreso than hand-to-hand skill.



t0xeus said:


> imo you could make an argument that moving into Sasuke's blindspot wasn't possible at that time - since he would see him



If you look at that scene in the manga, the real Itachi was hiding behind Sasuke because we saw the entire area behind the clone of Itachi, and Itachi was not there. He was already behind him, and going in front was a tactical decision so Sasuke could counter.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi knew he wasn't going to push Sasuke without the MS, unlike his his defenders he was fully aware that Hebi Sasuke would beat him without the MS.



Based on what? The databook showing that Itachi was a blatantly much more knowledgeable and more proficient ninja in basically every ninja art? Itachi used the MS  (purposefully less effectively) because that's the only way Sasuke would believe he truly beat him. Itachi said Sasuke "stood no chance" without an MS, not that Itachi only stood a chance with his MS.

e.g. Zetsu stating that Sasuke overcame Itachi's genjutsu despite Itachi having stronger eye-power (MS > 3T) because of "skill" was shown to be patently false in the databook and in War Arc hype of Itachi's genjutsu skill. So Sasuke defeating Itachi's genjutsu at the outset is suspect, as is his physically keeping pace with someone whose clone feints he can't track.

Really, the battle only began 'going in Sasuke's favor' (as Itachi desired it to appear all along) when Itachi started using his MS techniques purposefully badly so his stamina/ability/eyesight drained and he became a less effective fighter. As Obito stated clearly, Itachi orchestrated the entire battle to appear as though Sasuke convincingly beat him and everything he had.

Reactions: Like 1


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## uchihakil (Feb 13, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi knew he wasn't going to push Sasuke without the MS, unlike his his defenders he was fully aware that Hebi Sasuke would beat him without the MS.



Itachi had to make the fight look real, i mean he wanted sasuke to believe he went all out, so why would he nerf himself + itachi with no intent to kill is not putting hebi sasuke down with just sharingan, the condition in this fight is different, itachi is going for the kill here, no dicking around, and to add on some few points
- it was implied in the manga that hebi sasuke would'nt have won against oro if he was'nt sick but itachi low diffed healthy oro
- 30% itachi held his own against kakashi (who said he needed naruto's help to beat itachi) that was a 30% itachi mind you, and kakashi needed naruto i doubt hebi sasuke with 30% chakra can handle naruto not even kakashi
- itachi in all his fights never really had killing intent and he was still a beast


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## uchihakil (Feb 13, 2017)

oMeGa1904 said:


> That's not denying fate, that's just reality.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yea i got the explanation bout izanami


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 13, 2017)

OK so, OP made the choice to cripple Itachi with his debilitating illness.

Alrighty, so Hebi Sasuke has
a) superior firepower
b) genjutsu prowess that negates whatever Itachi can do
c) superior physicality
d) marginally inferior taijutsu

I'd imagine much of it would play out like the early stages of their in-canon battle, except drawn out much longer since Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu don't come into play to exhaust Itachi.

Really, Itachi's just delaying the inevitable, which is: Sasuke packs a senjutsu-powered Katon and roasts his brother to cinders.

So Sasuke wins, mid-high difficulty. Actually, just mid-difficulty. Itachi is only getting overwhelmed the moment the Cursed Seal comes into play.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 13, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Itachi had to make the fight look real, i mean he wanted sasuke to believe he went all out, so why would he nerf himself + itachi with no intent to kill is not putting hebi sasuke down with just sharingan, the condition in this fight is different, itachi is going for the kill here, no dicking around, and to add on some few points
> - it was implied in the manga that hebi sasuke would'nt have won against oro if he was'nt sick but itachi low diffed healthy oro
> - 30% itachi held his own against kakashi (who said he needed naruto's help to beat itachi) that was a 30% itachi mind you, and kakashi needed naruto i doubt hebi sasuke with 30% chakra can handle naruto not even kakashi
> - itachi in all his fights never really had killing intent and he was still a beast



Itachi had to go all out to the point Sasuke could handle. The manga made it clear that is everything Itachi had minus Susanoo hence the jutsu never attacked Sasuke.

We don't know how Itachi vs Oro went, if it went as we saw then that isn't representative as Oro made a big deal about losing his arm. That means a lot for obvious reasons. 

Kakashi said this thinking this was 100% Itachi with the MS.


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## theRonin (Feb 13, 2017)

Hussain said:


> I cringe every time someone says itachi is smart.
> 
> The dude is straight up mentally retarded.





professor83 said:


> Itachi got played by a so called disgrace of uchiha his entire life.



*Spoiler*: __ 




Still can't get enough of this meme.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 13, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> During the shuriken clash (which Sasuke used shuriken summoning because he also lacked the natural speed there,) Itachi replaced himself with a clone without Sasuke noticing. There's a definite speed factor in there much moreso than hand-to-hand skill.


I doubt it, I feel as if it was due to his taijutsu skill that he was able to sneak in a clone seal there.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 13, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Based on what? The databook showing that Itachi was a blatantly much more knowledgeable and more proficient ninja in basically every ninja art? Itachi used the MS  (purposefully less effectively) because that's the only way Sasuke would believe he truly beat him. Itachi said Sasuke "stood no chance" without an MS, not that Itachi only stood a chance with his MS.



I'm not sure if you realise how the stats actually work. 

The only evidence that Itachi held back the MS was the lack of Susanoo. There was no indicator that the other MS jutsu were held back.



> e.g. Zetsu stating that Sasuke overcame Itachi's genjutsu despite Itachi having stronger eye-power (MS > 3T) because of "skill" was shown to be patently false in the databook and in War Arc hype of Itachi's genjutsu skill. So Sasuke defeating Itachi's genjutsu at the outset is suspect, as is his physically keeping pace with someone whose clone feints he can't track.



Again, tell me how the stats can be used to suggest what you say they did.
The war arc literally said he can retain control a person with his illusion over a long distance: that is it. 

Sasuke simply did what he was foreshadowed to do, own Itachi when he tries Tsukuyomi. Itachi did try to kill Sasuke with his MS jutsu that's correct. However, Susanoo was the only jutsu to not even touch Sasuke- Itachi didn't bother using it to attack Itachi. We've seen what a difference maker Susanoo is. 

Hebi Sasuke did react to Itachi's clone feint, however. If he lacked the Hebi powers, he'd probably have used Chidori Nagashi to stun Itachi and the clone- he had options. Now you're saying that based when Itachi could've been killed with a Katon Sasuke purposely chose to miss. 



> Really, the battle only began 'going in Sasuke's favor' (as Itachi desired it to appear all along) when Itachi started using his MS techniques purposefully badly so his stamina/ability/eyesight drained and he became a less effective fighter. As Obito stated clearly, Itachi orchestrated the entire battle to appear as though Sasuke convincingly beat him and everything he had.



Itachi did desire it, that's why he didn't use Susanoo to stomp Sasuke. Like Obito said, Itachi hit Sasuke with no more than he could handle. Going by that, Sasuke could handle everything Itachi dished out except Susanoo. 

There is nothing with substance which suggests Hebi Sasuke would lose to a Itachi without his MS. Especially when you don't distort the context.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 13, 2017)

Santoryu said:


> Have to disagree here.
> 
> Itachi has the edge in taijutsu and genjutsu too. There is no proof that CS closes that gap.


1. Sasuke doesnt lose to itachi n h2h, and sasuke would logically be more directly skilled in its use as he specifically trained in its use during the chunin exams and attained a level in it that astounded rock lee and even gai himself. Tack on Sasukes CS, which we know is a massive increase in stats even at the first level, let alone second level, and he demolishes itachi in h2h. And for overall CQC he also has his sword and raiton techniques that give him the edge over itachi.

2. As for genjutsu, i can already see the itachi fans jumping down my throat for his, but thats baseless.
Itachi>Sasuke in genjutsu *skill* is a claim with no evidence, the only time their illusions were ever compared, it was comparing sasukes basic sharingan hypnosis to itachis unique tsukuyomi, thats not a difference in skill, thats itachi straight up possessing a better technique than sasuke.

If i had a 9mm and you had a bazooka and we both fired at a target and you did more damage, does that make you a better marksman?


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## Dr. White (Feb 13, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> I doubt it, I feel as if it was due to his taijutsu skill that he was able to sneak in a clone seal there.


This doesn't make sense. While it obviously took extreme dexterity (as Itachi was grabbing shuriken from the air to throw back at Sasuke), it was mostly speed as sasuke's tracking mechanisms could track the weapons (and Itachi's throwing motions) but not him literally weaving a clone and it situating itself behind him. Sasuke didn't catch the seal (the indicator ala Kakashi vs Kakuzu's doton) or the actual creation of the clone given the extreme casting environment.


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## Serene Grace (Feb 13, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> The horns had nothing to do with battle experience though. The whole horn situation was Kabuto erroneously believing Itachi had got into CqC with him in order to injure Kabuto with the sword cause he lacked knowledge on Izanami. Nothing about the horn scenario implies Kabuto's sensing was somewhat mitigated. The only thing it implies is as I said earlier: A.) Kabuto is bullshitting in the moment (he literally thought he was untouchable and "the closest person to the sage") as to not eat his crow, or B.) Kabuto was legitimately not used to his Dragon morphology and despite dodging the katana forgot about the extra inches he needed to compensate for.


I'll be a little bit more clear. Kabuto lacked the battle experience in that particular form, hence why he forget he even had horns in the first place. He was dodging the sword in the sense, that he didn't have horns which was why it was hit. If I was dodging something in the sense that I didn't have ears, would it not be likely that the sword would hit my ears? Yes, I'm not aware of me having ears, so I'm not trying to secure my ears as well


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## Sapherosth (Feb 13, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> 1. Sasuke doesnt lose to itachi n h2h, and sasuke would logically be more directly skilled in its use as he specifically trained in its use during the chunin exams and attained a level in it that astounded rock lee and even gai himself. Tack on Sasukes CS, which we know is a massive increase in stats even at the first level, let alone second level, and he demolishes itachi in h2h. And for overall CQC he also has his sword and raiton techniques that give him the edge over itachi.
> 
> 2. As for genjutsu, i can already see the itachi fans jumping down my throat for his, but *thats baseless.
> Itachi>Sasuke in genjutsu skill* is a claim with no evidence, the only time their illusions were ever compared, it was comparing sasukes basic sharingan hypnosis to itachis unique tsukuyomi, thats not a difference in skill, thats itachi straight up possessing a better technique than sasuke.
> ...




Are you kidding me?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 13, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> This doesn't make sense. While it obviously took extreme dexterity (as Itachi was grabbing shuriken from the air to throw back at Sasuke), it was mostly speed as sasuke's tracking mechanisms could track the weapons (and Itachi's throwing motions) but not him literally weaving a clone and it situating itself behind him. Sasuke didn't catch the seal (the indicator ala Kakashi vs Kakuzu's doton) or the actual creation of the clone given the extreme casting environment.


We've seen numerous shinobi use chakra muscle memory to achieve this. He probably didn't need to or he masked his movement while using the throwing star.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 13, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Are you kidding me?


Cool...one hype statement from characters who dont know what the fuck they are talking about when it comes to the sharingan...

Let alone genjutsu as a whole...

No direct comparison was ever made between sasukes and itachis skills with genjutsu.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 13, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Man soon people will be arguing whether base Itachi, beats MS Sasuke.



Well most of the forum is completely unable to distinguish MS Sasuke in the first chapter against Bee (no MS jutsu, injured) from MS Sasuke against Danzo. So maybe.


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## Sapherosth (Feb 13, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Cool...one hype statement from* characters who dont know what the fuck they are talking about when it comes to the sharingan...*
> 
> Let alone genjutsu as a whole...
> 
> No direct comparison was ever made between sasukes and itachis skills with genjutsu.





Shukaku with all of the combined information from five villages somehow "doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about". I guess someone like C who made a statement saying Sasuke's Amateratsu skill is better than Itachi is somehow more knowledgeable than Shukaku and Ao combined.



Say no more, WSS, say no more......

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## uchihakil (Feb 13, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Shukaku with all of the combined information from five villages somehow "doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about". I guess someone like C who made a statement saying Sasuke's Amateratsu skill is better than Itachi is somehow more knowledgeable than Shukaku and Ao combined.
> 
> 
> 
> Say no more, WSS, say no more......



These itachi haters man, straight up denying the manga to put down itachi, its really unbelievable

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 13, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Cool...one hype statement from characters who dont know what the fuck they are talking about when it comes to the sharingan...
> 
> Let alone genjutsu as a whole...
> 
> No direct comparison was ever made between sasukes and itachis skills with genjutsu.



 No offense, but you're discrediting statements because you're incredulous to Itachi's feats even though we have one direct statement claiming that Itachi has this capability. This falls in line with what Nagato stated to Itachi, Kabuto would use Itachi's illusionary skills to his advantage to bring the Shinobi Alliance to their knees. This is why Kabuto viewed Itachi as the perfect Edo Tensei, his genjutsu skills are literally second to none, and there's nothing that would dictate Ao's statement as false. Actually, there's enough evidence based on Nagato and Kabuto's statement that would suggest it's true.


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## Dr. White (Feb 14, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> We've seen numerous shinobi use chakra muscle memory to achieve this. He probably didn't need to or he masked his movement while using the throwing star.


What? muscle memory has nothing to do with it. Itachi was actively parrying projectiles, and sasuke was doing the same and has an innate tracking system, not only is crafting seals another mental task but it also detracts time and hand commitment amongst the shuriken war which is why his speed is tremendous given he did it *and* sasuke didn't see it


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## Baroxio (Feb 14, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No direct comparison was ever made between sasukes and itachis skills with genjutsu.



lol wut?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 14, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Are you kidding me?



Tell me what you think that means.

>Itachi can control people over a long range.

That is literally it. Though Ao makes it look like Shisui can't, even with Koto. 



Baroxio said:


> lol wut?



This is even worse than Sapherosth. Danzo explicitly says that Sasuke's Genjutsu is nothing compared to _"Itachi's Tsukuyomi"_.
Not Itachi Genjutsu vs Sasuke Genjutsu; Tsukuyomi vs Sasuke Genjutsu.

If you want to say that the page says Itachi's Tsukuyomi>Sasuke's Sharingan Genjutsu, you're right. If you want it to say all Itachi's Genjutsu>Sasuke's Genjutsu? That's reaching.


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## uchihakil (Feb 14, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tell me what you think that means.
> 
> >Itachi can control people over a long range.
> 
> ...



Itachi having tsukiyomi means he's better than sasuke in genjutsu though, just like how sasuke is better in using amaterasu


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 14, 2017)

Baroxio said:


> lol wut?


"Its a far cry from itachis TSUKUYOMI"

Sasukes sharingan hypnosis is not being compared to itachis sharingan hypnosis...

Sasukes hypnosis is being compared to itachis unique MS technique...

Youre reaching

I will reiterate...

No direct comparison between sasukes skill and itachis skill is ever made...

Itachi has arguably better hype(beyond sensor range)...Sasuke has arguably better feats (Broke Tsukuyomi, stalemated itachi in genjutsu feints, feinted deidara who specifically trained against sharingan after experiencing itachis, put a leash on kurama casually, destroyed oros rebirth dimension) not counting the shit he pulls off with his own MS or even further, if we include that itachi gets put to shame real quick


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 14, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Itachi having tsukiyomi means he's better than sasuke in genjutsu though, just like how sasuke is better in using amaterasu



Having Tsukuyomi means he awakened the MS and mastered it enough to unlock Susanoo. Like every non-genetically altered Uchiha that unlocked Susanoo. 

But in that scene he literally compared Genjutsu to Tsukuyomi. Sasuke altered his perception of time at the end hence Obito answered Danzo's "why didn't Izanagi work" question with his line about Tsukuyomi.


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