# Itachi vs Minato



## Matty (Oct 13, 2015)

Area: Sasuke vs Danzo
Knowledge: Minato knows of MS Genjutsu, Itachi aware of Hiraishin
Restrictions: None
Mindset: IC
Distance: 50 Meters

Itachi is Healthy, Minato is in his Hokage prime


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## Kai (Oct 13, 2015)

Someone should have thought of this match-up.  Good idea 

Minato wins. He's had a greater portrayal of strength since the beginning of the manga, his dealing with Obito was superior, and he's too crafty with his reflexes and Hiraishin techs to be hit by Itachi's attacks - plus he can outlast Itachi as the fight becomes elongated. Itachi would need a successful genjutsu to halt Minato in his tracks to win, but I don't see that happening while the fastest man has that knowledge.


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## ARGUS (Oct 13, 2015)

Minato wins this 

 -- Amaterasu gets evaded, susanoo strikes get evaded till minato throws a kunai, jumps behind susanoo, tags it and then teleports it away by a clone, ffollowed  by the original coming at his face and smashing a rasengan at his chest 

 -- genjutsu is countered through the use of clones reducing its probability, and general intel and the use of FTG catching itachi off guard means that its not happening.


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 13, 2015)

Been done a thousand times..

Minato will always be > Itachi


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## Bonly (Oct 13, 2015)

Either Itachi manages to catch Minato in a genjutsu and then lands a fatal blow(assuming the genjutsu isn't said fatal blow) or Minato eventually tags Itachi or gets some tags near him and show off that yellow flash


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## savior2005 (Oct 13, 2015)

does minato have sage mode and Kyubi chakra mode?


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## Matty (Oct 13, 2015)

No this is base Hokage Minato that fought 14 Y.O. Obito


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## Trojan (Oct 13, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> No this is base Hokage Minato that fought 14 Y.O. Obito



So, technically, this is not "prime" Minato since he never reached his prime. 

-----

anyway, Minato trashes itachi mid difficult at absolute most. 
Otherwise, it's made clear that the MS users ain't holding a candle to FTG users...


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## T-Bag (Oct 14, 2015)

Itachi doesn't lose unless he wants too.

And minato is a 1 trick pony... nothing that his eyes can't see, literally or figuratively. He'd read minato like an open book, just like KB did, but unlike KB itachi would deliver the finishing blow. It's what he does.


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## Dolohov27 (Oct 14, 2015)

Minato wins low difficultly.


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> Itachi doesn't lose unless he wants too.
> 
> And minato is a 1 trick pony... *nothing that his eyes can't see*, literally or figuratively. He'd read minato like an open book, just like KB did, but unlike KB itachi would deliver the finishing blow. It's what he does.



Do you mean like how Izuna and Obito's MS saw the attack coming? 

and I wonder what makes itachi any more than "1 trick pony". 
he does the same shit over and over, and over again. lol


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## Kyu (Oct 14, 2015)

Most of if not all of Itachi's ninjutsu will be redirected or outright dodged - genjutsu, specifically Tsukuyomi is his most plausible option at achieving victory.

My money is on Minato winning after Itachi's chakra is depleted from keeping the fourth at bay. It'll be a lengthy battle, but Minato is in the advantageous position of not having to waste much chakra while forcing his opponent to do just that.

Minato would need to be incredibly negligent to get ensnared in Tsukuyomi, whereas Itachi just needs to be worn down or falter from excessive Mangekyo usage to lose.


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2015)

Kyu, you should feel bad. 

Minato throw the Kunai in top of A and was about to attack him directly before he could react
he did the same with Obito who got flowered and couldn't do anything with Kamui (which activates automatically). 
he throw the Kunai next to Madara (before Kakashi's Kamui activate), and was able to move a good distance before
madara counterattack him.

Itachi, is from the first type where he wouldn't be able to counter.



> It'll be a lengthy battle,



> Implying itachi can achieve  a lengthy battle with his pitiful chakra...


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## Kyu (Oct 14, 2015)

Sick Itachi's 'pitiful' stamina > Hebi Sasuke's


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## thechickensage (Oct 14, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Sick Itachi's 'pitiful' stamina > Hebi Sasuke's



Yes, and Hebi Sasuke would also lose to Minato


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Sick Itachi's 'pitiful' stamina > Hebi Sasuke's



And that suppose to change anything? 
Not to mention you're wrong anyway. Sasuke was simply using stronger jutsu when he overwhelmed itachi several times.


That's like saying the 3rd raikage has 3 times more chakra than Hashirama. 
Since the 3rd fought for 3 days, when Hashirama fought for 1 at most. 

Also, "sick" part has nothing to do with his chakra anyway.


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## Kyu (Oct 14, 2015)

> Yes, and Hebi Sasuke would also lose to Minato




No shit. 

I'm referring to sick Itachi's stamina. Not his or Hebi Sasuke's overall combat prowess.



> Not to mention you're wrong anyway.



A terminally ill man outlasting a bizarre Sasuke/Oro hybrid doesn't fall into the 'pitiful' chakra reserves bin.



> Also, "sick" part has nothing to do with his chakra anyway.



ninja aids = weaker body = additional strain caused by MS


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## Sadgoob (Oct 14, 2015)

Hokage Minato kept kid Obito from destroying Konoha.

Healthy Itachi kept adult Obito from even _trying_.



Here's another example of Obito not even _trying_ to take Itachi.

[youtube]IEKiAonlYXc[/youtube]


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## Ghost (Oct 14, 2015)

Itachi still wins this. Minato has nothing on Genjutsu.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 14, 2015)

Since Minato is aware about Itachi's Tsukuyomi he wins , other Genjutsu won't affect him because of his synapse speed even higher than Prime V2 Raikage according to Cee . He has by far larger chakra quantity , he can also use many clones and FTG/Shunshin combo to attack and evade Amaterasu/Susano'o attacks . Itachi's chakra will be rashly drained , he will be forced to spamm Susano'o against Minato's combos .


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2015)

> [=Kyu;54525214]
> A terminally ill man outlasting a bizarre Sasuke/Oro hybrid doesn't fall into the 'pitiful' chakra reserves bin.


 His chakra is 2.5 it's pitiful. 


> ninja aids = weaker body = additional strain caused by MS



Itachi was healthy in part 1. Still got extremely tired after using the MS. 
At no point in the manga was he showing to be able to take on long battles. That exist only
in fan-fiction, and you should know that.


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## Pirao (Oct 14, 2015)

Minato was, is, and always will be >>> Itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 14, 2015)

I always favor Itachi in knowledge equalized scenarios, because he is more resourceful and has more tools to make use of. 
Itachi is too smart to be outmanevered and blindisded by Hirashin, but can't say the same about Minato regarding Itachi's arsenal. I think Minato is likely to slip up here. Hard win non the less.



hbcaptain said:


> Since Minato is aware about Itachi's Tsukuyomi he wins , other Genjutsu won't affect him because of his *synapse speed even higher than Prime V2 Raikage according to Cee*



you have to re-read the manga. C says the complete opposite.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 14, 2015)

I have already re-read manga 100 times , Cee said that V2 Raikage's synapses are close to Minato's .

In terms of feats Minato is smarter than the likes of kamui (figuring Kamui's mechanism and how t ocounter it in jiust two exchanges , GudoDama's mechanism....) , he is also too smart and fast for beeing touched by Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi .

Plus human size FTG consumes like nothing of chakra , it doesn't have side effects like Itachi's MS Jutsus , plus Minato have much more chakra .


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 14, 2015)

Itachi is warped out of Susano eventually, he need only touch it with a kunai, his arm, his bunshin or his Rasengan.

Bunshins are guaranteed loss for Itachi, Minato touches the bunshin in no time and the original Itachi is warped into a Rasengan even prior to the bunshin exploding if Itachi attempts that, not that that would matter because Minato would just send the exploding bunshin right at Itachi or at one of his other marked areas before it even damaged him.  

Amaterasu, Totsuka, Magatamas, all either warped with the barrier which was wide enough to take away a Juubidama, or avoided with a tagged kunai throw which  travel 30m before Kakashi's Kamui can complete. Minato already reacted to Judara's truthseekers on panel and a Kamui grab-warp, which is faster than anything in Itachi's arsenal. 

Generally speaking I don't expect Itachi to be able to follow Minato's blitzing speed at any point, especially if he machine guns kunai around the landscape. The speed at which his kunai travel is faster than anything in Itachi's arsenal, including himself. This was proven when he threw one 30m where it stopped before Kamui could complete, this with Kamui being shown activated by Kakashi as the first action in the sequence.

As soon as that feat was printed any chance Itachi had at beating Minato went out the window.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 14, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> I have already re-read manga 100 times , Cee said that V2 Raikage's synapses are close to Minato's .


100 times isn't enough for you then. Trust me, read it again, because thats not what C says.


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## Icegaze (Oct 14, 2015)

not again

minato wins, he is the worst thing to face itachi

too fast to get hit by everything including genjutsu and has a perfect counter to susanoo


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 14, 2015)

Minato is a tier above him. Not sure what "healthy itachi" is. Only ever saw one version of itachi, the one with poor stamina.

Raiton chakra mode -> was able to chase naruto in nine tailed chakra mode and is hailed to be as fast as the yellow flash.

Lol, good luck itachi, thats not even taking ftg into consideration.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 14, 2015)

Itachi either catches him with Tsukiyomi or Minato gets the proper setup to gg him. And before you say Minato is 'too fast' etc. Itachi is more than capable of using clones etc. as well. You guys act like Itachi is a snail he's no Minato but he isn't just going to sit there and get blitzed.

Honestly this match can go either way. And lol at someone saying 'catching Itachi off guard' yeah because that clearly happens. Chances are the Itachi Minato hits isn't even him.


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## Trojan (Oct 14, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Itachi either catches him with Tsukiyomi or Minato gets the proper setup to gg him. And before you say Minato is 'too fast' etc. *Itachi is more than capable of using clones etc. *as well. You guys act like Itachi is a snail he's no Minato but he isn't just going to sit there and get blitzed.
> 
> Honestly this match can go either way. And lol at someone saying 'catching Itachi off guard' yeah because that clearly happens. Chances are the Itachi Minato hits isn't even him.



Minato can use clones as well. 



> Chances are the Itachi Minato hits isn't even him



You do know that Minato is a sensor, right?


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 14, 2015)

> *And before you say* Minato is 'too fast' etc.


It's already been said multiple times in this thread Ghoztly, prior to you posting this. 

Did you bother reading it?



> Itachi is more than capable of using clones etc


Worst option against Minato, he need only touch the clone (chakra of Itachi) to instantly warp Itachi into a Rasengan. He'd be better off not using them and remaining in Susano, because they haven't the speed to avoid him touching them and they cannot use Amaterasu/Totsuka Blade to keep Minato away when their speed fails.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 14, 2015)

Itachi can blow his clones up, and he can do this before Minato even touches it. And I meant my own post, not the thread in general. I just feel like Minato would get trolled by genjutsu. Has he even showed any way of countering it at all?

They have full knowledge which means Itachi isn't being caught off guard that easily. This isn't a fight where a speed blitz wins, he would get caught by Itachi one way or another, he doesn't even need to look at him directly.

That said Minato isn't a moron either, he's more than capable of being able to get set up to dismantle anyone pretty quickly.

That's why it's one of those matches where you have to ask yourself why even make the thread. There won't ever be a conclusion lol.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 14, 2015)

Lmao, Minato touches it before the explosion even activates, then when it begins exploding he reacts to it and sends the exploding clone into Itachi's face. Yes, he's that fast he would actually see the clone exploding fast enough for him to send it to Itachi. 

Dude was throwing kunai 30m and manifesting Rasengan before Kamui could complete. He warped out of a Kamui warp, without knowledge his opponent could Kamui warp.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 14, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Lmao, Minato touches it before the explosion even activates, then when it begins exploding he reacts to it and sends the exploding clone into Itachi's face. Yes, he's that fast he would actually see the clone exploding fast enough for him to send it to Itachi.
> 
> Dude was throwing kunai 30m and manifesting Rasengan before Kamui could complete.



Assuming that it's actually Itachi.

And also assuming he will sit there.

Full knowledge.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 14, 2015)

Okay, how about Minato blitzes the clone, touches it and then warps to Itachi immediately via him touching his chakra (the clone), and then slashes his throat?

Meanwhile, the clone hasn't perceived what just happened because Minato blitzes faster than Kamui completes, so by the time Itachi's throat is cut the clone doesn't even know to explode yet. 

How about that one?

You're aware Sick Itachi is significantly slower than Minato, correct?


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## Ghoztly (Oct 14, 2015)

What if that was a genjutsu? lol

You can try to play out how these two would fight , but it will never work.

It comes down to if your an Itachi fan or a Minato fan. 

This may come as surprising, but I actually favor Minato. Itachi's genutsu is just ridiculous, he can catch you right from the very beginning, without even looking at you. Minato is just as smart, it can go either way. I am simply stating that this won't be a blitz fest like most people think.

Almost the entire cast is slower than Minato barring powerups, but speed means nothing if the person your hitting isn't even real.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 14, 2015)

No it does not. It comes down to what the matchup is and who has the better feats. You don't have to be a fan of either of them. 

Minato is faster than Itachi, faster than all of his attacks, and Itachi cannot defend himself from Minato because he can warp him out of Susano into a lethal attack.

Genjutsu isn't a factor, Minato literally moves too fast between FTG warps for a Genjutsu to even be thought as an option for Itachi, he's shown throwing a kunai 30m and arriving there with a Rasengan before Kamui completes. Do you understand this? He can blitz an opponent 30m away before Kamui can warp them. 

He can literally blitz Kakashi who starts with Kamui already activated on Minato as it begins to manifest a warp hole around Minato as a target- from 30m. 

Amaterasu, Totsuka, Magatamas- none of this works, they're all slower than it takes for an already-initiated Kamui to finish, which is Minato's speed level. Which means he cannot stop Minato from touching his Susano and warping him out. 

Even if he could think to use Genjutsu- it literally would not land on Minato who moves so fast between warps that it's impossible to complete a Genjutsu on him.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 14, 2015)

Yet you haven't shown an ounce of anything that says Minato can't be put under genjutsu. You're saying Minato 10/10 times? He doesn't have the eyes to beat Itachi outright. Refer to ch. 142, he wasn't lyin' might have been bragging a bit but he isn't winning 100% of the time.

I would give it to Minato 6 or 7/10 times though, Itachi is just really stamina starved.

 Unless Minato has tags already set up on the battlefield Itachi can catch him in a genjutsu or even worse Tsukiyomi and then it's OVER 100% How long do you think it takes for a person to fall under a genjutsu exactly? Half the time they don't even realize it.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 14, 2015)

I just proved it man. He's faster than an already initiated Kamui. He can move 30m and create a Rasengan before Kamui finishes. 

How could Itachi possibly
1. Think to start a Genjutsu on him
2. Find the location of someone moving that fast 
3. Look in their eyes 
4. Land the Genjutsu on them (not just initiate it, Genjutsu is not instant, it's certainly not as fast as Kamui which Minato has proven to be able to blitz a user of)

If Minato is already moving faster than Kamui can complete? He's doing all this in the time it takes Kamui to finish?

Let me put it this way, do you think Itachi can react to Kamui already activated with him in Kakashi's sights? Because Minato is faster than that.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 14, 2015)

He doesn't need to look into his eyes, that's why it's OP lol. Remember they have full knowledge, they are both coming into this fight knowing what each other has.

That's why there is no clear winner. Itachi knows how fast he is, Minato knows how hax Itachi's genjutsu is.

I realize how fast Minato is. Trust me. Honestly how they arrive at the location is probably a major factor if they were to fight.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 14, 2015)

What do you mean he doesn't have to look into his eyes? All of his Genjutsu is ocular driven. 

Even the finger he has to point at the eyes of the opponent, in order to do that he has to see the eyes of the opponent so he knows where to point.

This is all irrelevant.

Answer me this:

Do you think Itachi can react to Kamui if Kakashi already has it activated with Itachi in his sights?


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## Ghoztly (Oct 14, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> What do you mean he doesn't have to look into his eyes? All of his Genjutsu is ocular driven.
> 
> Even the finger he has to point at the eyes of the opponent, in order to do that he has to see the eyes of the opponent so he knows where to point.
> 
> ...



No, in that scenario he's done for.

But that's not all the fight comes down to, come on lol.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 14, 2015)

Great, so we agree Minato is too fast for him to not only instill a Genjutsu onto, but to react to altogether, considering Minato was proven to be faster than an initiated Kamui when he threw a kunai 30m and arrived in SM w/ a Rasengan before it completed.

Think of Minato as a faster version of Kamui that is already activated on Itachi. 

Is it easier to see how he shitstomps Itachi now?


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## Ghoztly (Oct 14, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Great, so we agree Minato is too fast for him, considering Minato is faster than an initiated Kamui.



Minato's speed was never an issue for me to understand. He's the fastest character in the manga...well, I guess near the end there you could say he might not be.

The thing is Itachi is smart, and he knows how fast he is as they both have full knowledge going into the fight. He would have had a strategy beforehand.

But so would Minato.

Now I am going in circles...


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 14, 2015)

There is no prep, and there is no strategy.

He doesn't have the speed to react to him at any point, just as he doesn't have the speed to react to an initiated Kamui as you've already agreed with, and he attacks aren't fast enough to keep Minato from getting to him.

The battle is 50m, Minato can throw dozens of kunai at speeds that move at least 30m before Kamui can complete (which it never did)

First of all, he won't perceive the kunai moving toward him until they're basically right near him. 

Why? He threw one 30m before Kamui could complete, Itachi can't even react to Kamui if it did complete, which means the kunai have no problem moving 50m before Itachi cognates them near him. 

Now Minato has multiple areas around Itachi to warp to, and kill him.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 14, 2015)

Ok, if they both just plopped into a battle out of nowhere, just as it appears in the topic.

Minato wins. Happy? That's not even interesting though, lol.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 14, 2015)

If the matchup were interesting- it would be interesting.

It's not. Minato trashes him with speed he's never even seen before.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 14, 2015)

Herpa derpa, Itachi trashes Minato with genjutsu he's never seen before.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 14, 2015)

Right? Like come on, it's not just your average genjutsu. Minato still needs to throw kunai's, his footspeed is still on another level but Itachi should be capable of at least_ pointing_ at him from 50m lol. Pretty sure he can point just as fast as he does his hand seals, and that's quick.


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## Garcher (Oct 14, 2015)

Healthy Itachi obliterates him with a single punch before Minato can even react


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 14, 2015)

Herpa derpa, Itachi trashes Hashirama with genjutsu he's never seen before.

because why not?


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## Rocky (Oct 14, 2015)

Some people seem to believe that Hashirama can shatter Itachi's top tier illusions because Hashirama. 

That's probably because he would crush Itachi if the story forced them to fight, but with their current feats, Itachi should win with the distance and knowledge in his favor. Hashirama's a goofball.


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## Icegaze (Oct 14, 2015)

So i just watched the new naruto movie. Sasuke used his ST jutsu and because momoshi had knowledge he could counter sasuke before sasuke attacked

can itachi do the same but with susanoo countering minato?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Some people seem to believe that Hashirama can shatter Itachi's top tier illusions because Hashirama.
> 
> That's probably because he would crush Itachi if the story forced them to fight, but with their current feats, Itachi should win with the distance and knowledge in his favor. Hashirama's a goofball.



yet make another thread with v2 raikage vs hashirama from 5 meters. The the excuse there is hashirama wins still, because he's hashirama


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 14, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> So i just watched the new naruto movie. Sasuke used his ST jutsu and because momoshi had knowledge he could counter sasuke before sasuke attacked
> 
> can itachi do the same but with susanoo countering minato?



Of course, considering Hirashin is alot more predictable than Sasuke's STJ. You have to telegraph the fact that you are going to teleport by throwing a kunai.


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## Rocky (Oct 14, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> yet make another thread with v2 raikage vs hashirama from 5 meters. The the excuse there is hashirama wins still, because he's hashirama



He wins because he can regenerate. 

Naruto didn't truly become DBZ until the God Tier. Without medical ninjutsu, v2 A obliterates Hashirama from only 5 meters away. He wouldn't have time to do anything.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 14, 2015)

No , FTG isn't as predictable as you said , Hiraishin users always manage to hide one mark and surprise the ennemy from nothing .


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 14, 2015)

A lot more predictable against who? Juubi Jins and Rikudo characters, lol.


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## Rocky (Oct 14, 2015)

You can counter Hiraishin if you know when Minato or Tobirama will warp and where they will go. You can also counter it if you're a god.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He wins because he can regenerate.
> 
> Naruto didn't truly become DBZ until the God Tier. Without medical ninjutsu, v2 A obliterates Hashirama from only 5 meters away. He wouldn't have time to do anything.



hashirama can regen from lateral bolt of pain to the neck? Same tech that cut Gyukis horn clean off? . Sasuke had to shield himself with enton coated susanoo to guard that same v2 chop attempt. A move an ms user couldn't follow with his eyes or form seals to counter


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## Ghoztly (Oct 14, 2015)

Characters that can't eliminate the threat of genjutsu are pretty much fucked against Itachi. No matter how powerful they are, he can instantly put you into one. Actually, he was never really able to demonstrate that as much as he could. He did it once against Kakashi, and then he didn't kill him because obvious reasons. Naruto it was always just a distraction rather than attacking him, and against Sasuke he did threaten a bit but he would never kill him.

Basically, after he first demonstrated he could do it, he didn't do it again, so people forget just how ridiculous it is.

It isn't overrated, it's actually underrated.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You can counter Hiraishin if you know when Minato or Tobirama will warp and where they will go. You can also counter it if you're a god.



Thats still not good enough, still need the speed and reactions to anticipate and counter it. And unless the ftg user has no killing intent, then it aint happening. only gods are managing that.


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## Rocky (Oct 14, 2015)

I don't know the limits of Hashirama's regeneration. If he can't grow a new head, and Raikage knows that he can't grow a new head, then Raikage will win.



> Thats still not good enough, still need the speed and reactions to anticipate and counter it.



It's not that hard to jump to the side if you know _exactly_ when & where Minato will go. You'd have to start your jump right before Minato activated Hiraishin so that he'd miss whatever attack was following the instantaneous warp.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 14, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Characters that can't eliminate the threat of genjutsu are pretty much fucked against Itachi. No matter how powerful they are, he can instantly put you into one. Actually, he was never really able to demonstrate that as much as he could. He did it once against Kakashi, and then he didn't kill him because obvious reasons. Naruto it was always just a distraction rather than attacking him, and against Sasuke he did threaten a bit but he would never kill him.
> 
> Basically, after he first demonstrated he could do it, he didn't do it again, so people forget just how ridiculous it is.



only reason that happened to kakashi is because he thought his sharingan could counter it. In part 2, kakashi didnt fall for that again. Same trick doesn't work on him twice like that.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't know the limits of Hashirama's regeneration. If he can't grow a new head, and Raikage knows that he can't grow a new head, then Raikage will win.



even tsuande who is split in half cannot grow knew limbs, she needed katsuya to reattach her. Hashirama with no head isn't doing jack, his body cant repair without a brain. Hashirama gets stomped in such a scenerio, but make a poll on it, and you'll see hashirama with majority votes.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 14, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> only reason that happened to kakashi is because he thought his sharingan could counter it. In part 2, kakashi didnt fall for that again. Same trick doesn't work on him twice like that.



Kakashi can resist genjutsu because he has the eye to do so.

Minato doesn't. 

Itachi looks, you're screwed.

You look away, he points, you're screwed.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't know the limits of Hashirama's regeneration. If he can't grow a new head, and Raikage knows that he can't grow a new head, then Raikage will win.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not that hard to jump to the side if you know _exactly_ when & where Minato will go. You'd have to start your jump right before Minato activated Hiraishin so that he'd miss whatever attack was following the instantaneous warp.


even someone with full knwoledge isnt doing that

minato can throw a kunai 30 plus meters and then immediately enter sage mode, then teleport to said kunai with a rasengan already formed in his hand, before kakashi could even activate kamui. Replace Juudara with a non rikudo character and that same move will demolish almost anyone. 

No one is jumping out of the way of kunai throwing speed of that magnitude.  Kakashi's first display of chidori was him running at top speed, yet minatos shuriken throws were overtaking him from multiple meters away. Itachis best option in that kind of situation is to deflect every kunai with his kunai/shuriken jutsu, we all know he is capable, especially with his sharingan. But he isn't jumping out of the way. No way in hell.

And what if this happens:

How do you predict which kunai he'll pop at if al of these get thrown at you. Answer is you don't, you have to counter some other way.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 14, 2015)

I agree that Minato can beat almost anyone if v3 kunai is unrestricted.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 14, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> Kakashi can resist genjutsu because he has the eye to do so.
> 
> Minato doesn't.
> 
> ...



since when does that genjutsu work when you arent looking? Since when is someone once known as the fastest shinobi gonna be standing still waiting for itachi to point a finger. The guy used to wipe out armies before they could blink, yet he's gonna be chilling for itachi to make a move. 

How many of minatos one vs ones have lasted more than 2 minutes? Obito-> 2, fight lasted a minute moves and he was done. Ay->took 1 second to defeat him, if bee didn't intervene. The guy works quick, too fast for itachi to be casting techniques willy nilly. He needs to rely on ms in a fight like this.  

Funny how hashirama, tobirama and minato have all faced ms users and have never worried about genjutsu ever. Someone as fast as Ay can never get caught in genjutsu in a 1 v 1, its just not happening. He's too fast, he basically said it himself.


----------



## Ghoztly (Oct 14, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> since when does that genjutsu work when you arent looking? Since when is someone once known as the fastest shinobi gonna be standing still waiting for itachi to point a finger. The guy used to wipe out armies before they could blink, yet he's gonna be chilling for itachi to make a move.
> 
> How many of minatos one vs ones have lasted more than 2 minutes? Obito-> 2, fight lasted a minute moves and he was done. Ay->took 1 second to defeat him, if bee didn't intervene. The guy works quick, too fast for itachi to be casting techniques willy nilly. He needs to rely on ms in a fight like this.
> 
> Funny how hashirama, tobirama and minato have all faced ms users and have never worried about genjutsu ever. Someone as fast as Ay can never get caught in genjutsu in a 1 v 1, its just not happening. He's too fast, he basically said it himself.



Sasuke's genjutsu is a joke compared to Itachi's.

It's not just some random genjutsu. Itachi mastered genjutsu far more than anyone else has, it's basically what he's known for. That goes for Madara too, his genjutsu is a joke compared to Itachi.


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## Marsala (Oct 14, 2015)

All of Itachi's serious opponents were immune to his Sharingan doujutsu in various ways. Sasuke had his own Sharingan. Nagato was being controlled by Kabuto so using genjutsu on him was meaningless. Kabuto was prepared to fight against the Sharingan with perfect senjutsu sensing.

Minato doesn't have any of that. He can either look in Itachi's eyes and get hit by Tsukiyomi, or not look in them and get hit by Amaterasu since he won't have a warning to teleport away. Minato would need to master Sage Mode to have the advantage over Itachi.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 14, 2015)

> Minato doesn't have any of that. He can either look in Itachi's eyes and get hit by Tsukiyomi, or not look in them and get hit by Amaterasu since he won't have a warning to teleport away. Minato would need to master Sage Mode to have the advantage over Itachi.


Or FTG to Itachi with a rasengan before he got hitted by Amaterasu .


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## Pocalypse (Oct 14, 2015)

Marsala said:


> Minato doesn't have any of that. He can either look in Itachi's eyes and get hit by Tsukiyomi, or not look in them and get hit by Amaterasu since he won't have a warning to teleport away. Minato would need to master Sage Mode to have the advantage over Itachi.



Did we forget that Minato has Hiraishin? Minato knows about Itachi's Genjutsu here so he'd be a fool to look at Itachi and get himself caught in a Genjutsu. There's a bigger chance of Minato tagging Itachi than Itachi catching Minato in a Genjutsu unless you think Itachi will be faster than Minato to the point that Minato can't use Hiraishin to evade him.

Amaterasu has been avoided by lots of characters, Minato, one of the fastest characters in the series sure as hell isn't gonna get hit by Amaterasu. Also he would get a warning because Itachi's eyes bleed when he's about to prep up Amaterasu, that's a giveaway.


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## Kai (Oct 14, 2015)

Marsala said:


> Minato doesn't have any of that. He can either look in Itachi's eyes and get hit by Tsukiyomi, or not look in them and get hit by Amaterasu since he won't have a warning to teleport away. Minato would need to master Sage Mode to have the advantage over Itachi.


Minato used Hiraishin to swap with Tobirama even after the black flames made contact with his body.



And for the sake of the thread, frankly Sage Mode doesn't make a difference in Minato's fights. He'll never use it IC.


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 14, 2015)

Calling for a ban of all Minato vs Itachi threads. Its been established that Itachi is not even in the same hemisphere as Minato. Minato wins and this will never change. And yes, this is coming from the oldest Uchiha fan on NF. Move on and accept it.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Oct 14, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Calling for a ban of all Minato vs Itachi threads.



This really do need to happen. FTG trolls itachi's arsenal especially when you go into the specifics of what FTG can do(most people are pretty modest about it).


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## Trojan (Oct 15, 2015)

It's getting boring anyway. 

from Kishi 2 most recent interviews and him talking about Jiraiya as well, I wonder if he changed the fact
that Jiraiya is more powerful than itachi. He just stated that Jiraiya is his favourite character after Naruto
and if he has to chose to tell the story from a different perspective, Jiraiya will be one of those. 

That's where all the compressions with itachi are, the sannin. People need to get over it already.


----------



## Six (Oct 15, 2015)

Why are people comparing genjutsu to kamui?  That's the most retarded argument one can make. You can see kamui forming and with quick enough reflexes avoid it. 

Manga canon states the moment you look in Itachi's eyes you are caught in his genjutsu, unlike kamui it has not been shown once of a person reacting to genjutsu as it is being placed on them. Manga canon also shows Minato's cocky ass having no problem staring a sharingan user down and questioning them while maintaining eye contact. Explain that. You can't be aware of being under the extremely quick process of falling under genjutsu. Literally everyone realizes that they're in one after they've been placed in one. 

Foh with these weak ass arguments. At the end of the day this matchup comes down to who is a fan of who. Quite funny seeing how the Minato fans make Itachi look like a genin who has no ability to make a strategy or run out of Chakra after 1 juts u.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 15, 2015)

Hahah running away from genjutsu. Thats a good one 



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> A lot more predictable against who? Juubi Jins and Rikudo characters, lol.



Or against guys like these : 1
Itachi has pseudo precog because of his 300+ IQ.
Predicting a linear jutsu like Hirashin is nothing for him.

Joking aside, what seperates Humans from animals, or other primates is its over developed prefrontal cortext. Which mainly gives us the ability to simulate the future(level 3 consciousness) . The better you can simulate it, more intelligent you are. 
Itachi's planning and prediction abilities are unmatched, it is safe to assume that he is the most intelligent character in Narutoverse.


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## Rocky (Oct 15, 2015)

I'm not sure if the scripted Sasuke fight was a feat on par with Shikamaru's feat of staying 200 steps ahead of Temari when he was 12.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 15, 2015)

^ IIRC, Shikamaru said he had thought of 200 more moves against Temari, but didn't have the stamina to do them. Which is self-defeating fight-planning hype, since he shouldn't have made a plan with 200 more steps than he was capable of doing. It'd be like Itachi planning to spam Susano'o for 24 hours and then realize he can't.​


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## Rocky (Oct 15, 2015)

We're discussing their actual mind power though. 200 steps is impressive even if Shikamaru knew that he couldn't continue.

Besides, Itachi's still probably smarter than kid Shikamaru, but there are other characters smarter than kid Shikamaru. Kakashi, Shikaku, older Shikamaru...Itachi is probably comparable to these guys. I don't think he's definitively above them.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm not sure if the scripted Sasuke fight was a feat on par with Shikamaru's feat of staying 200 steps ahead of Temari when he was 12.



Of course not. Temari is a fucking genin who blows wind with her fan. Predicting her moves isn't anything remotely comparable to predicting the moves and the motives of a kage level fighter.

Also Shikamaru's "200 moves ahead" hype is just.. words. He didn't do anything remotely impressive in regards to predicting the future.


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## Vice (Oct 15, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Also Shikamaru's "200 moves ahead" hype is just.. words. He didn't do anything remotely impressive in regards to predicting the future.



lol... 99% of hype Itachi fans still desperately cling to is all lip service. What's the difference here?


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## Ghoztly (Oct 15, 2015)

At the end of the day, Minato either gets some setup around Itachi's position good enough to wipe him out. Or Itachi GG's him with genjutsu, argue all you want, he is able to be put under it and none of you can prove otherwise.

Lets put it this way, he isn't invisible no matter how fast he is.

Also, Itachi's eyes don't always bleed for amaterasu, they only start to bleed after extended use. So in this fight it could be one or the other.  He used it several times with no bleeding and I believe Sasuke did as well.

Either way whoever gets caught first is dead.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 15, 2015)

Vice said:


> lol... 99% of hype Itachi fans still desperately cling to is all lip service. What's the difference here?



Take your shitty and unrelated generalizations elsewhere.

Look, I can +1 my post count too lol.


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## Vice (Oct 15, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Take your shitty and unrelated generalizations elsewhere.
> 
> Look, I can +1 my post count too lol.



"completely invincible" = lip service 

"better shinobi than me" = lip service 

"see into people's souls" = lip service

"you were perfect" = lip service

"he's different than all the others" = lip service  

No difference. Deal with it, crybaby.


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 15, 2015)

Itachi wins. I'd like to say Minato but Minato's power was based off hype, not from feats. He can dodge Amaterasu and give Susanoo some trouble with Gamabunta but Tsukuyomi soloes.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 15, 2015)

> not from feats


LOL ,


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## Rocky (Oct 15, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Of course not. Temari is a fucking genin who blows wind with her fan. Predicting her moves isn't anything remotely comparable to predicting the moves and the motives of a kage level fighter.



Shikamru didn't have Itachi's ridiculous fundamentals or plethora of legendary jutsu to use as tools for his plan, so the difficulty of orchestrating each fight should have been comparable.  

If Itachi kept his own mind but had only Shikamaru's physical abilities & ninjutsu to work with, no amount of thinking ahead would have stopped Sasuke from murdering him in less than a second. 

Likewise, if Shikamaru kept his mind but had Itachi's firepower to work with, he would have only needed one step to panel Exams Temari.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Also Shikamaru's "200 moves ahead" hype is just.. words.



So what.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 15, 2015)

Itachi has Susano'o which can be activated instantaneously which means Minato's first blindside attempt will be fruitless. Once Itachi recognizes the mechanics of Hiraishin, Minato is screwed as Minato's Hiraishin relies on the element of surprise. Without that, Itachi can properly time his attacks and pressure Minato thanks to Susano'o, Amaterasu, and Precognition.

 I don't understand how Minato can defeat Itachi, but to each their own.


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## Rocky (Oct 15, 2015)

Minato outlasts. ^


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## Sadgoob (Oct 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> We're discussing their actual mind power though. 200 steps is impressive even if Shikamaru knew that he couldn't continue.



200 useless steps is less impressive than 2 brilliant ones.​


Rocky said:


> Kakashi, Shikaku, older Shikamaru...Itachi is probably comparable to these guys. I don't think he's definitively above them.



Itachi has better intelligence feats and hype. He planned the entire fight with Sasuke without a hitch, had a Hokage's wisdom at 7, has natural perception beyond any Uchiha's Sharingan, etc.

A 200 IQ is not impressive relative to other young prodigies, as it literally means you're as smart as an average person twice as old as you. Kakashi, Sasori, Kabuto, Itachi, Minato, etc. all had 200+ IQs.​


Rocky said:


> Shikamru didn't have Itachi's ridiculous fundamentals



Itachi's fundamental skills are the result of Shikamaru's brain combined with Lee's work ethic. IMO one of the things the novel did right is showing how he constantly blistered for improvement.​


Rocky said:


> or plethora of legendary jutsu to use as tools for his plan



Itachi's legendary tools (the Yata and Totsuka) are also a result of his intelligence. He was able to quickly find them in a matter of years while Orochimaru had spent decades trying.​


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 15, 2015)

Minato had more intellect as an academy student than the whole Konoha combined. Only he could find Kushina and defeat the Elite Kumo Ninja Task Force at such an age.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 15, 2015)

Minato was old-as-fuck at the Academy compared to most other geniuses. He was 6 years older than Kakashi and 5 years older than Itachi. So it adds up that he'd be marginally better.​


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## hbcaptain (Oct 15, 2015)

Really and what's your source , Jiraya said that Minato is s the most talented between Hokages lineage , plus it's the only character in the 4th databook beeing stated to have natural talent as well as Hiruzen .


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## Sadgoob (Oct 15, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Really and what's your source , Jiraya said that Minato is s the most talented between Hokages lineage



Jiraiya doesn't know jack shit, unlike Orochimaru, Kabuto, and Black Zetsu.



hbcaptain said:


> plus it's the only character in the 4th databook beeing stated to have natural talent as well as Hiruzen .



"Natural talent." Dayum, that's some badass hype right there.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 15, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Minato had more intellect as an academy student than the whole Konoha combined. Only he could find Kushina and defeat the Elite Kumo Ninja Task Force at such an age.



 And yet Itachi was the only one who spotted Obito whereas the 3rd Hokage couldn't find him. :/


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## Sadgoob (Oct 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> And yet Itachi was the only one who spotted Obito whereas the 3rd Hokage couldn't find him. :/



.


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 15, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Minato was old-as-fuck at the Academy compared to most other geniuses. He was 6 years older than Kakashi and 5 years older than Itachi. So it adds up that he'd be marginally better.​



No matter what his age, he was smarter than every ninja in the Konoha. Not even the Nara clan could find Kushina.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 15, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> No matter what his age, he was smarter than every ninja in the Konoha. Not even the Nara clan could find Kushina.



 Great, both are smarter than every ninja in Konoha.


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## Rai (Oct 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> And yet Itachi was the only one who spotted Obito whereas the 3rd Hokage couldn't find him. :/




Irrelevant: Hiruzen wasn't in his Prime.

Hiruzen was still in his Prime when the incident of Kushina happened.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 15, 2015)

ℜai said:


> Irrelevant: Hiruzen wasn't in his Prime.
> 
> Hiruzen was still in his Prime when the incident of Kushina happened.



 Would be relevant if I was referring to the 3rd's combat prowess here, but I wasn't, so ....


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Great, both are smarter than every ninja in Konoha.



You aren't that far off. Itachi was one damn smart dude, just not on the level as Minato.

If Boruto and Sarada were to have kids, their offspring would have the genes of Itachi and Minato. Those kids would be the GOAT


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## Rai (Oct 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Would be relevant if I was referring to the 3rd's combat prowess here, but I wasn't, so ....



Hiruzen's sensing skills dilluted.

I'ts relevant.

End of the discussion.


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## Trojan (Oct 16, 2015)

honestly itachi is not even that smart! 
He seems rather average at best if not below that...
as Vice stated, it's just lips service about his intelligent. However, when we come to reality he seems rather
ignorant/dumb most of the time. 

1- His dumbass plan for Sasuke is fucked up from its core to the very end.He even admitted that several times. 
2- His knowledge about that past is also wrong seeing how what he said to Sasuke about Madara turns out to be
wrong as we have seen from Hashirama's flashback. (Regarding Madara taking his bros eyes by force..etc etc)

and he was fooled by Obito as well for all those years. 
and altho he was his student, he was not able to figure out his ability's secret. Unlike Konan who did a far better job
at knowing Obito's weaknesses, what makes itachi smarter than her? Nothing really. 

The few thing people take as him being "smart" is also him knowing Nagato's shared vision. They are good to point out how itachi is a "spy" but they are not very good to point THAT out when it comes about him knowing about the Akatsuki's members that he was supposedly spying on!  He even said that he thought he knows about the Akatsuki more than Nagato. Knowing the weakness of a jutsu used by them is barely a surprise after 10+ years with them. 

Speaking of which, he failed miserably at his work as Konoha did not get any info from him about the Akatsuki whatsoever.  

And he keeps doing the same mistake over and over and over again. Like, he admitted that he failed because he was way too arrogant in his ability which is blinding him (unlike Minato). Then, he goes on to tell Naruto to not take everything on his shoulder, just for him (itachi) to go to try to stop Kabuto by himself and trying to stop Sasuke from coming with him. Hypocrisy much?  


The only decent "smart" feat (which ended in a failure anyway) is the Amaterasu trap. That's it. lol

other than that, his fight with Deidara, Kakashi, Oro...etc etc did not really have any strategy and barely any analysis whatsoever.... 

Now, coming to the ages/ranks. Assuming they are not reteconned since those ages stuff is all over the place. lol
So, what if he became an ANBU at age 13 or whatnot? 

As we have seen, the ANBU is not really anything special. 13 years old Obito murdered tens of them without a freaking scratch. We have seen how lower ranked Ninja can defeat a higher ranked one over and over again. As the story went on, those ranked became less relevant. ESPECIALLY, with the ANBU that were rarely seen of any use at all. lol 

And there is no "fixed" amount of power that you need to be at for you to be a specific rank.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 16, 2015)

ℜai said:


> Hiruzen's sensing skills dilluted.
> 
> I'ts relevant.
> 
> End of the discussion.



 Yoru sensing capabilities do not suffer due to age. Your combat instincts might, but your sensing doesn't.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 16, 2015)

Is that the best you got Hussein? 

Obviously Itachi (and Minato) are meant to be seen as super-geniuses.

Both have also made mistakes and whatnot.

Minato is  on unintelligence more viciously though.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 16, 2015)

I am not talking about what they are suppose to be seen as. It's obvious as day that the characters who suppose to be smart have suffered greatly from the retecons and the story being changed nonstop because of Kishi's poor planning. That does include Minato, Tobirama, itachi, Oro, Hiruzen...etc etc. I am not denying that. 

Even tho what Tobirama was talking about their is Minato's naming not his intelligence. When I mean different events... 

Regardless, when we comes to their actual feats in the battles, Minato's feats in that department and even planning for Naruto is much better than anything itachi ever did.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 16, 2015)

Vice said:


> "completely invincible" = lip service


Completely unrelated to what we are discussing. But @ that point in the manga, Zetsu thought Itachi's Susano'o, with Yata and Totsuka made him invincible. Which was somewhat true, based on the abilities of shinobi we had seen so far.


> "better shinobi than me" = lip service


Its not lip service. Hashirama heard Itachi's story and learned about his sacrifice and how far he had to endure and then said those words.
Itachi is a better shinobi than everyone else in the manga. It is emphasized once more @ the end of the manga when Sasuke calls him "true hokage"
You have to learn to live with it. 

Itachi > your fave



> "see into people's souls" = lip service


No, Kabuto based it off the fact that Itachi was able to predict his path with no visual or sensory cues. It is an actual feat of intelligence. 



> "you were perfect" = lip service


Being perfect is unsubstantiated anyways, no one cares about this.



> "he's different than all the others" = lip service


I don't remember the context of this one.



> No difference. Deal with it, crybaby.


You got rekt son. Go back to library shitposting.



Rocky said:


> Shikamru didn't have Itachi's ridiculous fundamentals or plethora of legendary jutsu to use as tools for his plan, so the difficulty of orchestrating each fight should have been comparable.
> 
> If Itachi kept his own mind but had only Shikamaru's physical abilities & ninjutsu to work with, no amount of thinking ahead would have stopped Sasuke from murdering him in less than a second.
> 
> Likewise, if Shikamaru kept his mind but had Itachi's firepower to work with, he would have only needed one step to panel Exams Temari.


I am not talking about that. I am talking about the fact that his opponent was too damn easy to predict.



> So what.


Actions speak louder than words, thats what.
You can't point out any feat from Shikamaru that puts him above Itachi in that regard.



Hussain said:


> honestly itachi is not even that smart!



He is fucktons smarter than Minato, thats all that matters


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## Trojan (Oct 16, 2015)

> He is fucktons smarter than Minato, thats all that matters



Not even close. 
Neither by feats, nor by hype or portrayed. 

itachi is just ordinary guy in term of power and intelligent. Nothing special really. 

Tho it was touching for the kid to learn how to correct his mistakes by taking Minato as a model I must say.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 16, 2015)

Being this delusional




Come on man, Minato is many things, but he isn't exceptionaly smart. Well sure, he is smarter than average ninja, but he isn't among the smartest bunch.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 16, 2015)

Euuh , no Minato was alwyas extremely smart , figuring complexe Jutsu's mechanism at a record time and instantly finding how t odeal with it . Plus , he is a Jutsu genius creator , he creates original Jutsu one after another  .


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## Trojan (Oct 16, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Being this delusional
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nah, you're the one being delusional here pal.  
but instead of going in circles, why don't you enlighten us with those amazing itachi feats in term of intelligent?  

Because even if we go with your claim "but he isn't among the smartest bunch." that will make itachi just more further from that since Minato is far smarter than him. 

but anyway, go ahead, enlighten us with why itachi is so smart in your opinion based on what he showed.


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 16, 2015)

But Itachi wasn't smart enough to stop the Uchiha coup detat and had to resort in killing little kids and babies. Academy student Minato showed more intellect than Itachi.


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## Trojan (Oct 16, 2015)

It's not even about that. 
Itachi's battles really has nothing of analyzing or the minimum!  
I don't know what Grim is deluding himself about! 

Unlike Minato with Kakashi, Obito, Madara...etc etc

On the other hand what has itachi showing in his battle with Deidara, Oro, or Kakashi?
Even Sasuke fooled him several times in their battle. lol

Keep in minde that Minato was seeing those abilities for the first time. Itachi was spying for 10+ years
and can't replace Minato's feats. lol


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## Vice (Oct 16, 2015)

Itachi's smart because his dues ex machina eyeballs can summon mechs and conveniently defy the laws set by the plot. Even though he fucked up everything and completely failed by his own admission, he's a super fucking genius guys.


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## Trojan (Oct 16, 2015)

I think the smartest plan of his was

"let me torture my brother and tell him to kill his best friend. Then, I'll tell him he lack hatred and power, so he can be a criminal. Afterword, he will return to Konoha just fine as a hero" 

the smartest plan I have seen, I must admit!


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I think the smartest plan of his was
> 
> "let me torture my brother and tell him to kill his best friend. Then, I'll tell him he lack hatred and power, so he can be a criminal. Afterword, he will return to Konoha just fine as a hero"
> 
> the smartest plan I have seen, I must admit!



It is still better than "lets entrust the faith of the mankind to this new born baby and hope everything turns out ok."


Minato was never praised for his intellect, nor has any significant feats of intelligence on panel.
I have no idea where you got the notion that he is exceptionaly smart.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 16, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is still better than "lets entrust the faith of the mankind to this new born baby and hope everything turns out ok."
> 
> 
> Minato was never praised for his intellect, nor has any significant feats of intelligence on panel.
> I have no idea where you got the notion that he is exceptionaly smart.





Someone worked perfectly, the other failed miserably.  



> Minato was never praised for his intellect





"he was a genius" 


"and intelleence" 


"the wise...etc"



> nor has any significant feats of intelligence on panel.




He has much better than itachi (which btw, apparently you couldn't find any ) 



> I have no idea where you got the notion that he is exceptionaly smart.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 16, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato has no significant feats of intelligence on panel.



[1][2]


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 16, 2015)

Rocky said:


> [1][2]



Nooe, itachi didnt do it. Therefore it isnt a significant feat. If itachi did the same thing though, commanding intelligent capable and respected ninja like kakashi and gaara (both kage tier), then of course the feat would be amazing.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 16, 2015)

Rocky said:


> [1][2]



I gotta admit I forgot about that one. And it is actually a good feat. I have to concede the point about Minato not having any on panel feats.


----------



## hbcaptain (Oct 16, 2015)

You can add Obito's Kamui's feat , he only needed two exchanges to figure it out and elaborate successfull strategy while Kakashi can't in 10 . Minato has more feats than itachi .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 16, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> You can add Obito's Kamui's feat , he only needed two exchanges to figure it out and elaborate successfull strategy while Kakashi can't in 10


Danzo's bodyguards did it in shorter notice.



> . Minato has more feats than itachi .


no.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 16, 2015)

> Danzo's bodyguards did it in shorter notice.


No , Tobi's Jutsu mechanism was reported to them .



> no.


Then you have to explain .


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 16, 2015)

Minato made a simple analysis and had the advantage as he had the correct technique that could initiate a successful counterattack.

 Kaksahi had no such thing. He didn't have some haxed jutsu that allowed him to counterattack faster than Obito. 

 Though it's really not a fair comparison because Minato has vast experience in S/T Ninjutsu whereas Kakashi had very little which makes Minato more suited for analyzing Obito's strategy compared to Kakashi. You can't really use that as an argument here.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 16, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> No , Tobi's Jutsu mechanism was reported to them .


nah
described the sensation
Obito complimented them on their analysis.



> Then you have to explain .



There is a spark of intelligence in everything Itachi does, on or off panel.

But for me, the most remarkable one, unmatched by anyone so far, is how he pulled off Izanami against Kabuto. 
I mentioned how the measure of intelligence is the capability of simulating the future earlier. Itachi showed the true capability of what a brilliant mind can achieve against Kabuto..

From here on : described the sensation
He pretty much predicted everything that would happen ; that Kabuto would come in close right after Itachi disabled Susano'O, which would force Sasuke to protect him, Sasuke would instinctively throw his sword, Kabuto would grab it and then Itachi would be able to get himself stabbed, closing the loop.

He observed all these instances before, he saw Sasuke instinctively throw his sword at Kabuto before, he saw Kabuto grab it and attempt to use it on Itachi.  And he ran a perfect simulation of what would happen in his mind, and executed it.


We don't even have to include things like planning out his fight against Sasuke, his post mortem Amaterasu and Koto fail safes, deciphering and countering shared vision in short notice(took a whole chapter for Jiraiya and the toads to do it), finding a way of breaking Kabuto's sound genjutsu, countering CT, etc.

Itachi was thinking like a hokage at the age of 7. It is clear that his mind worked differently than other people. One can liken his mental capabilities to that of 'savants' minus the defects that come along with it.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 16, 2015)

Itachi pretty much had to plan Izanami accordingly and forced Kabuto to intiate the same move against him even though Kabuto's one of the more intelligent ninja in the manga who had complete knowledge on Itachi's arsenal.

 That's some impressive shit right dere.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 16, 2015)

> nahdescribed the sensation
> Obito complimented them on their analysis.


They had access to Kakashi's team report , it was just a confimation to their previous informations :

*Spoiler*: __ 








*Otherwise the two Anbu will be smarter than Kakashi .
*



> But for me, the most remarkable one, unmatched by anyone so far, is how he pulled off Izanami against Kabuto.


Kabuto was just freaking arrogant , he even tought that he is closer to Rikudou sennin than Edo Madara ,and that he totally outclass genius Uchihas .




> I mentioned how the measure of intelligence is the capability of simulating the future earlier. Itachi showed the true capability of what a brilliant mind can achieve against Kabuto..


The same goes for Minato when he instantly understood Kakashi's Chidori weakness wihtout even seeing it once , a genius creator who creates original Jutsus one after another . How he instantly understood Kamui's mechanism and how to counter it .




> From here on : described the sensation
> He pretty much predicted everything that would happen ; that Kabuto would come in close right after Itachi disabled Susano'O, which would force Sasuke to protect him, Sasuke would instinctively throw his sword, Kabuto would grab it and then Itachi would be able to get himself stabbed, closing the loop.


So now , even seeing throught Kabuto's Shunshin is a sign of smartness wow .




> He observed all these instances before, he saw Sasuke instinctively throw his sword at Kabuto before, he saw Kabuto grab it and attempt to use it on Itachi.  And he ran a perfect simulation of what would happen in his mind, and executed it.


He was a level above ARROGANT Kabuto's level , that doesn't make him equal to Minato .




> We don't even have to include things like planning out his fight against Sasuke, his post mortem Amaterasu and Koto fail safes, deciphering and countering shared vision in short notice(took a whole chapter for Jiraiya and the toads to do it), finding a way of breaking Kabuto's sound genjutsu, countering CT, etc.


How Minato predited Naruto will became Kyubi's Perfect Jinchuriki , that Obito will cause a great war , that Naruto will fight him and he has to use Kurama's chakra to rivals him , that he can solve Uchiha's matter just by himself while Hiruzen can't  , that he create original Jutsus one after another , founding out Kamui's mechanism and instantly find a tactic to counter it , how he understood GudoDama's mechanism and instantly elaboring a successfull strategy to counter JJ Madara .... etc .




> Itachi was thinking like a hokage at the age of 7. It is clear that his mind worked differently than other people. One can liken his mental capabilities to that of 'savants' minus the defects that come along with it.


Jiraya said that everyone pale if you compare him to Minato . Hiruzen Itachi has the maturity of Hokage at 7 , not the brain or analysis abilities .


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## Trojan (Oct 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Minato made a simple analysis and had the advantage as he had the correct technique that could initiate a successful counterattack.
> *
> Kaksahi had no such thing. He didn't have some haxed jutsu that allowed him to counterattack faster than Obito.
> *
> Though it's really not a fair comparison because Minato has vast experience in S/T Ninjutsu whereas Kakashi had very little which makes Minato more suited for analyzing Obito's strategy compared to Kakashi. You can't really use that as an argument here.



What type of drugs are you smoking?


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> What type of drugs are you smoking?



 It's the truth. Kakashi had no idea his S/T Ninjutsu was connected to Obito's simply because S/T Ninjutsu utilize different dimensions. 

 It's because of this that Kakashi didn't think Kamui would be useful offensively and being able to recognize that his jutsu was not only connected to Obito's, but also that Obito's technique(s) were merely just one jutsu is far greater than Minato's simple analysis of needing to strike faster than Obito, which as Grim presented, was something Danzo's henchmen figured out.


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## Trojan (Oct 16, 2015)

having no idea that he has a the KEY weakness to Obito's jutsu means he did not have it? 
And you have the guts to say "it's the truth" SMH!



> It's because of this that Kakashi didn't think Kamui would be useful


How does that change the fact that he has the best counterattack there is to Kamui? 



> is far greater than Minato's simple analysis of needing to strike faster than Obito



that has GOT to be the stupidest thing I have read in the last half year. 



> which as Grim presented, was something Danzo's henchmen figured out.



Which Kakashi couldn't figure out.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 16, 2015)

> Which Kakashi couldn't figure out.


No dude , Danzo's subalterns had hax Jutsu to counterattack Obito .


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> having no idea that he has a the KEY weakness to Obito's jutsu means he did not have it?
> And you have the guts to say "it's the truth" SMH!
> 
> 
> ...



2

 You've got to be kidding me. Even Naruto knew Obito's power.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 16, 2015)

Naruto had tens of times Taijutsu exchanges with Obito , and many weeks/months to just understand his Jutsu , so ...


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## Trojan (Oct 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> 2
> 
> You've got to be kidding me. Even Naruto knew Obito's power.



What a poor ability in Inference! 

You do comprehend that Naruto, Kakashi...etc saw Obito's jutsu for the first time when they were headed to Sasuke (when he was battling itachi), and then saw it again at the hospital, and again after Danzo's battle....

And then the battle with him started around 560+ and the chapter you provided is 30+ after that.
Minato figured out that out and counter it in ONE chapter. 

and even them, Minato did the job by himself. On the other hand, to counter Kamui which you think was simply, needed ALL FOUR OF THEM to replace Minato's
feat! 

Grim tries his hardest to downplay it as of right now, but at the time, even he knew how broken that feat was. 
he even goes as much as saying Minato > Kakashi + Gai & Naruto


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 16, 2015)

You claimed Kakashi didn't figure out his power.

 I disproved that notion.

 Stay butthurt.


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## Icegaze (Oct 16, 2015)

@grimmjaw
Torune and Fuu had info already . Fuu says that confirms he can slip through objects 
2


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 16, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @grimmjaw
> Torune and Fuu had info already . Fuu says that confirms he can slip through objects
> Link removed



I am skeptic about it. Danzo said "there is no telling what Madara is capable of." 

Also you don't need any additional information to deduce that he can slip through objects. They just saw him do it.



hbcaptain said:


> They had access to Kakashi's team report , it was just a confimation to their previous informations :
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


Speculation.



> *Otherwise the two Anbu will be smarter than Kakashi .
> *


and ? 
Kakashi is very lackluster when it comes to actualy living up to his genius hype.



> Kabuto was just freaking arrogant , he even tought that he is closer to Rikudou sennin than Edo Madara ,and that he totally outclass genius Uchihas .


Obito is more arrogant than Kabuto.


> The same goes for Minato when he instantly understood Kakashi's Chidori weakness wihtout even seeing it once , a genius creator who creates original Jutsus one after another . How he instantly understood Kamui's mechanism and how to counter it .


Deducing Chidori's weakness isn't even an intelligence feat.
Kamu is pretty easy to figure out and counter, considering danzo's body guards did it in very short notice.


> > So now , even seeing throught Kabuto's Shunshin is a sign of smartness wow .


Whatt ? 


> He was a level above ARROGANT Kabuto's level , that doesn't make him equal to Minato .


Equal ? 

Itachi is in a completely different ballpark when it comes to intellect.  Ignore everything else, what he pulled against Kabuto puts him way ahead of everything Minato has done.



> How Minato predited Naruto will became Kyubi's Perfect Jinchuriki ,


He didn't predict it, he hoped for it.



> that Obito will cause a great war ,


Because Obito to told him so 



> hat Naruto will fight him and he has to use Kurama's chakra to rivals him ,






> > that he can solve Uchiha's matter just by himself while Hiruzen can't
> 
> 
> What ?
> ...


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## Bookworm (Oct 16, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Nooe, itachi didnt do it. Therefore it isnt a significant feat. If itachi did the same thing though, commanding intelligent capable and respected ninja like kakashi and gaara (both kage tier), then of course the feat would be amazing.



I didn't know you were an Itachi fan. Right on! That's the way to show Minato fans real logic


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 16, 2015)

Is Hokage level reasoning actually a good thing after what we have seen


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## thechickensage (Oct 16, 2015)

As a very young child, Itachi HAD Hokage-level reasoning, but when he killed women, men, and children on the orders of Scumbag Danzo...he betrayed the whole village.  Kishimoto tried to portray Itachi as the one who saw through everything, but he failed in the same way that Sasuke failed to take on the hate of everyone.


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## T-Bag (Oct 17, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> As a very young child, Itachi HAD Hokage-level reasoning, but when he killed women, men, and children on the orders of Scumbag Danzo...he betrayed the whole village.  Kishimoto tried to portray Itachi as the one who saw through everything, but he failed in the same way that Sasuke failed to take on the hate of everyone.



Wasn't just Danzo's order. THe council, and the 3rd hokage had a say in it too but they couldn't come up with a better choice so they were left with the extermination of the uchiha

slaughtering a clan >>>>>>>>>>>>> a world war.

if itachi didn't kill those women and children, other countries would have.


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## thechickensage (Oct 17, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> Wasn't just Danzo's order. THe council, and the 3rd hokage had a say in it too but they couldn't come up with a better choice so they were left with the extermination of the uchiha
> 
> slaughtering a clan >>>>>>>>>>>>> a world war.
> 
> if itachi didn't kill those women and children, other countries would have.



It wasn't his choice to make.  

You're taking Hashirama's opinion of a 7 year old, and thinking that it carried forward to the rest of his life.  Hashirama didn't give his opinion of baby-killer Itachi.  He gave his opinion of 7-year-old Itachi.

What would Naruto have said about killing the Uchiha off?  Any of the Hokage?  Even Tobirama wouldn't have ordered the murder of all the Uchiha.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 17, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> As a very young child, Itachi HAD Hokage-level reasoning, but when he killed women, men, and children on the orders of Scumbag Danzo...he betrayed the whole village.  Kishimoto tried to portray Itachi as the one who saw through everything, but he failed in the same way that Sasuke failed to take on the hate of everyone.



That's not true at all. Sasuke, Hashirama, Tobirama, etc. glorified Itachi _because_ he killed his loved ones for the sake of the village and maintaining world order and peace, which the family threatened.

Yeah, it sucks that babies were killed, but this is verse is largely based on the feudal era. And the feudal era wasn't full of liberal pussies that were outraged by innocents harmed _in a warzone_.​


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## Sans (Oct 17, 2015)

Damn, Minato's poll numbers are clowning Itachi's numbers harder than Trump is abusing poor old Jeb.


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## thechickensage (Oct 17, 2015)

Itachi committed ethnic genocide, no matter how you look at it.  And Danzo whispered the BINARY ultimatum into Itachi's ear.  You saw that 2-page spread with the two statues symbolizing Itachi's choices...

Why was it two choices?  Danzo framed the thought in that way FOR Itachi.  

Before uniting clans, Hashirama was actually about to kill himself if it meant peace.  That is the lesson of Naruto, that everyone must strive for peace, using as much talk-no-jutsu on others as possible.  The lesson of the series was NOT that "ethnic cleansing stabilized the village" and "the baby-slayer Itachi was the wisest of all the characters," it was that Naruto's approach was correct, and that you have to forgive and you cannot punish unfairly those who disagree with you.

*Naruto's message is that stopping the cycle of pain is the path to peace*.

How does ethnic cleansing as a solution fit into that?


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## Sadgoob (Oct 17, 2015)

Komnenos said:


> Damn, Minato's poll numbers are clowning Itachi's numbers harder than Trump is abusing poor old Jeb.



I hope Trumps wins.



thechickensage said:


> Itachi's committed ethnic genocide



He did what Anakin did to the sand people. Fuck the sand raiders bro.


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## thechickensage (Oct 17, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> He did what Anakin did to the sand people. Fuck the sand raiders bro.



It would be a better analogy if Anakin murdered the tusken raiders on the SUSPICION that they were about to do something bad

Itachi killed people who hadn't done anything yet, and he killed children too young to have opinions.  He issued pre-emptive justice based on a binary point of view: 1) murder everyone (minus bro), or 2) Village descends into complete chaos

Itachi was wrong bc he saw only 2 outcomes, both  based on violence.  Naruto's message was to break the cycle of violence.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 17, 2015)

It wasn't really a _suspicion_. They were 100% going to do it. They included Itachi and Shisui as their powerhouses. Shisui killed himself because he could bare choosing between his clan or his village. 

_Naruto_'s message is childish because the manga is written for children. Good people die in war, and the shinobi system nourishes war. The author side-stepped it all and rushed the ending.​


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 17, 2015)

Lol they raped, tortured and murdered his mother.. and they were slave traders. The sand people were evil. 

Anakin was confirmed as *pure* evil not far after that incident, raiding and killing innocent children Jedi who did nothing to him and his mother, or his wife. These weren't evil people that he murdered, they were innocents, and there wasn't really a direct purpose for it. 

Itachi did kill innocent children as well mainly for the purpose of saving Sasuke, Anakin did what he did to save his wife by following the orders of the Sith Lord that promised him the power to save his wife (killing the child Jedi). Anakin committed genocide by dispatching every Jedi on the planet, some of which weren't even Jedi yet (the children). 

If you kill an innocent person you are evil, there is no coming back from that, it doesn't matter what the justification is whether it's saving a brother, a wife, a village or the world as a whole you are committing evil acts to achieve a more comfortable end. They don't say the road to hell is full of good intentions for nothing. If there is a hell in that verse Itachi is definitely in it, likely one of the more tortured souls for what he did despite the good that his sins may have birthed.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 17, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> If you kill an innocent person you are evil.



Morality is subjective and relative. Dropping the atomic bomb on Japan definitely killed many innocents, but saved a huge number of lives in the long run. I wouldn't call the action evil, or regrettable.

In a similar fashion, Itachi was credited with stopping a coup that would have led to a world war and many times more death. Particularly in a feudal context, it's acceptable to most ninja.​


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 17, 2015)

The notion that morality is subjective is also subjective. Many people believe it's innate and exists within every person who has a working mind capable of reason, which is controlled by the frontal lobe of the brain.  

Some people believe it's culture based, I certainly don't. If culture can convince you to do evil acts, you were tempted and chose the wrong action. Those who have that frontal lobe know the difference between what is the right action, and what is the wrong action. 

Itachi's actions were due to his culture, his love for the village and his brother was something instilled in him by his culture. If the village did not exist, and he wasn't taught to love his brother by those within the village, he would not have done what he chose to do. He was tempted, he chose the wrong action. 

Sasuke's life has no more value than any others, and if others choose to conduct warfare that's their choice, murdering hundreds to prevent it and to save one life is not a moral act in the slightest.

As far as the Japan bombing, that was also mortality based on culture, we can save a million of ours (US Soliders who would die having to take the Island of Japan by invasion) if we kill a couple hundred thousand of theirs (Nagasaki, Hiroshima). Trump is definitely in hell if one exists within this realm, though to be fair every President elected, by default, is immoral (leader of an imperialistic regime).


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## Ghoztly (Oct 17, 2015)

Itachi is a pacifist to his core. He disliked war more than anything and would stop at nothing to prevent one. Even his combat uses a more indirect way of fighting in genjutsu...

He did what was necessary for the big picture rather than be selfish. In the end though, he is only human and has human weaknesses, namely Sasuke.

I still think the fight goes either way, depends on the setup really. Either one can kill each other instantly with their best jutsu, so yeah. Anyways, these two shouldn't be put in anymore battles, there is never a real solid conclusion lol.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 17, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> The notion that morality is subjective is also subjective.



I subjectively agree that mortality being subjective is subjective.​


DaVizWiz said:


> Some people believe it's culture based, I certainly don't. If culture can convince you to do evil acts, you were tempted and chose the wrong action.



A good example of cultural relativity is the Inuit and infanticide. They didn't have birth control and food was scarce. They knew extra babies would likely starve to death. So they killed them. 

IMO that's not "evil." Evil to me denotes a degree of sadism, hatred, or malevolence. Itachi and the Inuit do not fulfill this requirement as far as I'm concerned. Their intentions were utilitarian.​


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 17, 2015)

There's plenty of examples, and they're interesting to play around with.

Itachi's motivations were to
>Save Sasuke's comfortable life (remain in the village among future friends, still have a future for his ambition to grow into something)
>Prevent a war

But he killed people that had comfortable lives, futures, etc. to attain this. Again, if people want to conduct warfare that's their choice, you shouldn't choose to do the wrong thing to prevent them from making that choice. Reason dictates he was immoral.

An interesting way to look at it is life is very rare in the universe, taking even one is quite a waste.

Bottom line is he condemned his humanity/mortality whatever you want to call it to ensure future people did not die. But he still condemned his humanity/morality, there is no question he did not. He killed people, and innocents at that.

For the most part there isn't a single shinobi that is moral in the entire manga, they are soldiers and soldiers by default exist for the purpose of killing. Naruto is extremely immoral, he is the head of an imperialism that competes with others for money and resources which in this world is the basis for supporting life. His job is to ensure the village acquires as much money and resources as it can, and to ensure that it remains protected so it can continue to take money and resources from those not within the village/country.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 17, 2015)

I still wouldn't call it evil as there was no malevolence in his intentions, nor would I even call it selfish, as Itachi's self-sacrifice was made clear in the manga (for Sasuke and Konoha's benefit.) 

In the end, that's what soldiers do. They kill the opposing forces (villages) and loved ones (not their own.) That's how war goes. Unless it's against an army of plant monsters. But that's rare.

Naruto's viewpoint is fundamentally foolish as he feverishly signed up to be a shinobi, a paid assassin, a paid mercenary, to frequently kill people he doesn't know, without judge or trial, for blood money.

This is what was said about Itachi: "He was too gentle to be a shinobi, and it is indeed an irony that his gentleness was the reason why he had to live his life as a ninja." IMO, much more realistic.

Itachi signed up to do bad things for good reasons. Naruto signed up to do bad things without understanding them, then refused to do them, and due to protagonist magic everything worked out.

Zabuza, Itachi, Mu, etc. are realistically portrayed ninja. Ruthless, realistic, and tactical. Naruto and the people he brainwashed to stand in a circle and sing kumbaya are characters from a children's book.​


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## Icegaze (Oct 17, 2015)

@grimm
They said confirmed , which means obito actions confirmed what they already knew 

Being sceptic about it is reaching at its finest


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 17, 2015)

> I still wouldn't call it evil as there was no malevolence in his intentions, nor would I even call it selfish, as Itachi's self-sacrifice was made clear in the manga (for Sasuke and Konoha's benefit.)​


I'm not understanding... taking a life is about as malice as malice gets. 



> In the end, that's what soldiers do. They kill the opposing forces (villages) and loved ones (not their own.) That's how war goes. Unless it's against an army of plant monsters. But that's rare.


Indeed, and they are immoral. 



> Naruto's viewpoint is fundamentally foolish as he feverishly signed up to be a shinobi, a paid assassin, a paid mercenary, to frequently kill people he doesn't know, without judge or trial, for blood money.


Indeed. 



> Itachi signed up to do bad things for good reasons. Naruto signed up to do bad things without understanding them, then refused to do them, and due to protagonist magic everything worked out.


Hahaha it's true. 



> Zabuza, Itachi, Mu, etc. are realistically portrayed ninja. Ruthless, realistic, and tactical. Naruto and the people he brainwashed to stand in a circle and sing kumbaya are characters from a children's book.


Naruto is indeed a simpleton, but immoral indeed.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 17, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Bottom line is he condemned his humanity/mortality whatever you want to call it to ensure future people did not die. But he still condemned his humanity/morality, there is no question he did not. He killed people, and innocents at that.



Consider the train-track question. If a train is on course to run over over ten people, but you're at the lever and can switch the tracks so that only one person (on the other track) dies, is that evil?

In accordance with this fable, Itachi did so. And Naruto would argue that the right thing to do is to not be proactive with the lever, and instead wait and hope things work out so nobody dies. 

In a children's manga, yes, Naruto's strategy would probably work out better than Itachi's would. But in reality? Not necessarily. Granted, I'm simplifying this greatly for the sake of my point.​


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 17, 2015)

No, you don't switch the tracks, choose to die as fate has deemed it, do not kill an innocent to save innocents. You chose to board a train and put your life at the risk of the machine malfunctioning, you will suffer the consequences.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 17, 2015)

Minato's vulnerable to Tsukuyomi and Itachi's got Susano'o for sudden defense from attempted Hiraishin attacks to his blind spots; however, Itachi's got very limited stamina, and his performance is going to drop as long as the match drags on.

Then you factor in random bullshit like clone feints, that can happen anywhere at any time during the exchange, and potentially upset the outcome either way. Itachi has a crow with a Sharingan that he can implant Amaterasu in, which Minato has NO fucking way of anticipating. Shiki Fujin could make it a draw, if the spiritual items held by Susano'o can't sever/block that shit. Itachi's throwing weapon game could fuck with Minato's attempts to get Hiraishin kunai where he wants them; on the other hand, tagging Itachi directly (or something near him) would allow Minato to completely bypass his defenses. And they both have high intelligence and a natural talent for intuiting enemy action, so any upset that could potentially happen is just another inch in the mental dick-measuring that will punctuate every action taken.

This battle is a fucking mess. Could go either way, or result in a draw.


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## Six (Oct 17, 2015)

Oh please stop with this morality bullshit. All these ninja kill and take others lives and destroy families and Minato is no different. Just look at he killed that guy who cut Kakashi in the Gaiden. Then he goes and tells Kakashi that he killed all the people who jumped him. Nobody is a saint in that world minus the Naruto Jesus bs who never had to face the tough choices ninja make because he's the mc. If you're gonna go and call Itachi evil for killing then you better pass some of that shade to Minato and everyone else who kill without blinking an eye. At least when Itachi fights he prefers to harm them mentally than physically than Minato who cuts people's throats and let's them bleed out.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @grimm
> They said confirmed , which means obito actions confirmed what they already knew
> 
> Being sceptic about it is reaching at its finest



Danzo said there is no telling what he can do. 

So their intel at best was very vague, since they had to act and "confirm" things. 
Eitherway, they made their analysis based on their observations at point, and Obito complimented them on it.


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## Joseline Hernandez (Oct 17, 2015)

Hi, im Joseline Hernandez. New to NF. Can someone please teach me how to use spoiler tags.
Anyway, I think Minato beats Itachi. Minato can't be hit by Amaterasu or Totsuka. He is too fast, and can go for Itachi when his eyesight runs out. But what about Tsukuyomi? I don't know..


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## hbcaptain (Oct 17, 2015)

> Hi, im Joseline Hernandez. New to NF. Can someone please teach me how to use spoiler tags.


Hi :


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 17, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Oh please stop with this morality bullshit. All these ninja kill and take others lives and destroy families and Minato is no different. Just look at he killed that guy who cut Kakashi in the Gaiden. Then he goes and tells Kakashi that he killed all the people who jumped him. Nobody is a saint in that world minus the Naruto Jesus bs who never had to face the tough choices ninja make because he's the mc. If you're gonna go and call Itachi evil for killing then you better pass some of that shade to Minato and everyone else who kill without blinking an eye. At least when Itachi fights he prefers to harm them mentally than physically than Minato who cuts people's throats and let's them bleed out.


Lool, look at this guy.

Since when is killing enemies in war the same as killing innocent family members and children . Thats like me going to war to fight for my country. But then some serial killer murders a class of kindergarteners. Then his lawyer tries to justify it as being the same as the actions I committed in war. Dude gtfo.

The things people will say.


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 17, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> slaughtering a clan >>>>>>>>>>>>> a world war.
> 
> if itachi didn't kill those women and children, other countries would have.



What world war? You mean a battle of a few adult male Uchiha vs the whole Konoha 

Itachi killed innocent babies and women. Im sure those individuals were threats


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## Trojan (Oct 17, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> What world war? You mean a battle of a few adult male Uchiha vs the whole Konoha
> 
> Itachi killed innocent babies and women. Im sure those individuals were threats



Even the adult let him kill them without struggling/counterattacking.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 17, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> What world war? You mean a battle of a few adult male Uchiha vs the whole Konoha
> 
> Itachi killed innocent babies and women. Im sure those individuals were threats



There was no war at the time of the uchiha massacre. The next war was the fourth shinobi war where everyone was fighting together. No idea what that guy is talking about.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 17, 2015)

You have no idea what he is talking about because you don't read the manga.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 17, 2015)

I think Itachi'd win. I feel hiraishin's easier to counter for Itachi than genjutsu would be for Minato to counter. Hiraishin's also easier to figure out imo.

I think the battle would drag on long enough for Itachi to deduce Minato warps to tagged kunai(Ei deduced it very quickly). From there, Itachi can use hiraishin knowledge, his sharingan insight, and his projectile expertise to keep track of and distance himself from tagged kunai. 

Itachi can also outright deflect them with his own kunai if necessary but just staying away from them would do. So after awhile Minato'd have to rely on raw speed or trickery to get another mark near Itachi w/ knowledge imo. 

Itachi can flash activate lower levels of Susano'o for protection during the opening moves but as the battle progresses I think he'll become substantially more adept at countering hiraishin; Minato doesn't have a solid way of keeping him surrounded by kunai the whole match through imo.

Comparatively, Minato knows about Tsukiyomi and genjutsu but not the myriad of deliver mechanisms Itachi has at his disposal. I feel as though it would be hard for Minato to deduce and look out for all these genjutsu because being trapped once in the first place could very likely be K.O. 

Even if it's a weak genjutsu like finger genjutsu, it could then be overlapped with a more powerful one like Tsukiyomi as we saw in the kabuto fight. So to reiterate, without external knowledge I feel Minato'd only figure out something like finger or crow genjutsu after being hit by it in the first place, which could then quickly become gg no matter how weak it is because of genjutsu overlapping[1]. I think the fact that Itachi has more ways of afflicting targets than just staring at them is pretty pivotal. 

Minato's Hiraishin can also kill targets early on but given how perceptive and reactive Itachi's been portrayed, and him having Susano'o and knowledge stipulated at the outset, I find it unlikely he'd be taken out too fast to deduce the working of Minato's offense.

Granted it's possible Itachi tries to go blunt-force at Minato using attacks like Amaterasu and Susano'o. I don't think those attacks are fast enough to hit Minato and he's already warped out of Amaterasu. If he goes head to head in such a battle Minato'd just dodge or warp everything until he tired. But I think such a strategy is more Sasuke-esque than something Itachi would do here IC with knowledge.


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## Rocky (Oct 17, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> Comparatively, Minato knows about Tsukiyomi and genjutsu but not the myriad of deliver mechanisms Itachi has at his disposal.



Itachi knows about Hiraishin, but not the myriad of tag-delivery mechanisms Minato has at his disposal. 



Lawrence777 said:


> Minato's Hiraishin can also kill targets early on but given how perceptive and reactive Itachi's been portrayed, and him having Susano'o and knowledge stipulated at the outset, I find it unlikely he'd be taken out too fast to deduce the working of Minato's offense.



Obito and A are pretty perceptive and reactive too, and Obito had some degree of knowledge and an equally quick defense.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 17, 2015)

Itachi can put people under genjutsu way too easily, he doesn't even need to have them look into his eyes. You either need some kind of immunity to genjutsu or be an Uchiha. And even then it's his genjutsu vs theirs, and seeing as he is pretty much the best genjutsu user we've seen, good luck.

Minato is neither Uchiha nor does he have any way to deal with genjutsu of Itachu's level. It's not some fodder genjutsu that you can break out of. Nobody can prove otherwise.

However the nature of Hiraishin makes this nearly as dangerous for Itachi, it's a two way street for sure. Which is why it's such an overdone battle that never has anyone agreeing.


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## Trojan (Oct 17, 2015)

> Minato is neither Uchiha nor does he have any way to deal with genjutsu. Nobody can prove otherwise.



Contract Seal >> Genjutsu that Obito used to control Kurama. 
You can't prove that it won't break itachi's Genjutsu either. 

and Minato already fought the uchiha and was never put under any genjutsu anyway.


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## Rocky (Oct 17, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> You either need some kind of immunity to genjutsu or be an Uchiha. And even then it's his genjutsu vs theirs, and seeing as he is pretty much the best genjutsu user we've seen, good luck.



Hashirama & Madara do not fit your criteria for beating Itachi, yet they would humiliate Itachi, so you should reevaluate your criteria.



Ghoztly said:


> However the nature of Hiraishin makes this nearly as dangerous for Itachi, it's a two way street for sure. Which is why it's such an overdone battle that never has anyone agreeing.



That's why it's fun to argue. This thread pops up like five times a month, but I still enjoy the match up.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Contract Seal >> Genjutsu that Obito used to control Kurama.
> You can't prove that it won't break itachi's Genjutsu either.
> 
> and Minato already fought the uchiha and was never put under any genjutsu anyway.



Because most Uchiha are fodder and suck, and ride off the coat tails of the real standouts like Madara and Itachi.

Also that's kind of grasping a bit don't you think.

I am not even going to bring Hashirama and Madara into this as it will only trigger everyone lol.


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## Trojan (Oct 17, 2015)

Obito is itachi's superior with the 2nd strongest Bijuu. Not sure how that sucks and fodder.  
Not to mention Obito's knowledge and massive amount of unfair advantages that were given to him. 

And it makes no sense that the Hokage of the village does not know about a clan in his battle. Heck, his student
is an uchiha.

Minato also has the Yin element according to the Databook, which all Genjutsu are part off. So, obviously he 
is not as clueless as you think he is.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Obito is itachi's superior with the 2nd strongest Bijuu. Not sure how that sucks and fodder.
> Not to mention Obito's knowledge and massive amount of unfair advantages that were given to him.
> 
> And it makes no sense that the Hokage of the village does not know about a clan in his battle. Heck, his student
> ...



Obito wasn't really as good with genjutsu as Itachi now was he? What don't people understand? Minato has his speed, Itachi has his genjutsu. Because you have magic eyes doesn't mean you instantly have access over genjutsu mastery capable of trolling one panneling sannins.

Also nobody knew or cared about Obito, he had zero hype coming into the story. Nobody gave a damn about him, which makes it the biggest troll of all that some no talent became as haxed as he did.

I meant that in the clan there was only Madara, Itachi, and Shisui as well that everyone hype to death. Outside of them the rest were like any other ninja. 

Kakashi trampled all over their reputation as well, being able to use their dojutsu better than all of them lmao.

They were a joke for the most part.


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## Trojan (Oct 17, 2015)

> Obito wasn't really as good with genjutsu as Itachi now was he?


He was not as good, he was far superior to itachi. What feats does itachi have that is better than controlling 
a perfect Jinchuuriki or controlling a Bijuu? 



> Also nobody knew or cared about Obito, he had zero hype coming into the story. Nobody gave a damn about him, which makes it the biggest troll of all that some no talent became as haxed as he did.



not sure how that is relevant honestly. Especially that we are talking about the Obito who has Hashirama's cells
and all the Jutsu madara knew. 



> I meant that in the clan there was only Madara, Itachi, and Shisui as well that everyone hype to death. Outside of them the rest were like any other ninja.


It does not matter tho. Obito did not even awaken the sharingan at that point. And it's obvious that he is far more important character than itachi and stronger as well...



> Kakashi trampled all over their reputation as well, being able to use their dojutsu better than all of them lmao.



I wouldn't say so...


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 17, 2015)

Itachi is more versatile in Genjutsu usage than Obito is and has experience with using genjutsu in actual combat than Obito does which makes Itachi a better Genjutsu user than Obito is, despite his Genjutsu being weaker.


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## Rocky (Oct 17, 2015)

Minato beat Obito before genjutsu was a factor.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Itachi knows about Hiraishin, but not the myriad of tag-delivery mechanisms Minato has at his disposal.


To be fair if you can show some of these myraid of tag-deliver mechanisms Minato has at his disposal I'll reevaluate and consider this point Rocky. I believe the mechanisms can be mostly summed up as tossing and warping however or warping to a planted kunai.



Rocky said:


> Obito and A are pretty perceptive and reactive too, and Obito had some degree of knowledge and an equally quick defense.


And they were both around long enough to deduce hiraishin's mechanics. My point within context was Itachi would be around and alive long enough to do the same(deduce hiraishin).


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## Ghoztly (Oct 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> He was not as good, he was far superior to itachi. What feats does itachi have that is better than controlling
> a perfect Jinchuuriki or controlling a Bijuu?
> 
> 
> ...



Obito was nowhere near Itachi's league when it came to genjutsu. And back then he was also one dimensional.

Sasuke had no issues trolling the nine tails, and he was far below Itachi and Obito, using that as a feat is hilarious. Actually, he supressed it, while in Naruto. Thats pretty gg.

Kakashi did use his sharingan better, that's pretty much fact.

Obito being more important is personal opinion considering he was tossed aside to make room for the real villain and also to make Kakashi trample the Uchiha name even more. Fodder if you ask me. He basically become a steroid for Kakashi.


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## Rocky (Oct 17, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> To be fair if you can show some of these myraid of tag-deliver mechanisms Minato has at his disposal I'll reevaluate and consider this point Rocky. I believe the mechanisms can be mostly summed up as tossing and warping however or warping to a planted kunai.



A tag can be placed on any tangible object. That opens up many possibilities. 

Kunai. Rocks. Clones. The Hokage jacket. A sandal. Anything is a potential warp point.

It'd be naive to think that Itachi can shut down Hiraishin by just keeping track of kunai.



Lawrence777 said:


> And they were both around long enough to deduce hiraishin's mechanics. My point within context was Itachi would be around and alive long enough to do the same(deduce hiraishin).



He knows the mechanics. It's in the knowledge. 

It just doesn't necessarily matter.

Versatile jutsu are not easy to predict. 

Fast jutsu are not easy to defend.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 17, 2015)

Young Bee managed to analyze and counter Minato's Hiraishin relatively well whereas Adult Bee had trouble against 3T Itachi's arsenal.


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## Rocky (Oct 17, 2015)

B, with a partner, did manage to predict one of Minato's jumps. Minato was aware of B's attempted "counter." B did not win, or really even come close.

Itachi has to win.

Also, base B didn't struggle against base Itachi. They skirmished evenly until B used the sword tornado.


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 17, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You have no idea what he is talking about because you don't read the manga.



Enlighten us on this world war then?


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> B, with a partner, did manage to predict one of Minato's jumps. Minato was aware of B's attempted "counter." B did not win, or really even come close.



 Bee predicted his Hiraishin warp twice. He managed to understand the mechanics of Hiraishin after Minato's one exchange with Ei. Itachi doing the same when he's proven to be far more intelligent than the likes of Kabuto and Bee's adult self isn't far-fetched at all.




> Also, base B didn't struggle against base Itachi. They skirmished evenly until B used the sword tornado.



 He did. Not only did Itachi get within his blindspot, Itachi also managed to dupe him with simple crow genjutsu and pressured him with fast hand seal speed. Hell, Itachi's first Shunshin used against KCM Naruto and Bee nearly caught Bee off-guard. His speed was so fast that Bee didn't even recognize his location until Itachi was already close to Naruto and himself. 

 When Itachi does analyze the mechanics of Hiraishin, he'll have a far easier time anticipating where he's going to warp and that makes it rather easy to initiate a counter-attack, a bushin feint, or easily defend with a Partial Rib-Cage Susano'o if need be.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 17, 2015)

> When Itachi does analyze the mechanics of Hiraishin, he'll have a far easier time anticipating where he's going to warp and that makes it rather easy to initiate a counter-attack, a bushin feint, or easily defend with a Partial Rib-Cage Susano'o if need be.


Minato isn't a dumb you know , every one knows the mechanism of Hiraishin but no one can counter it , you need an instant activated defense , and Itachi can't spamm Ribcage Susano'o for long so ... And Minato's FTG possibilities are infinite he can instantly teleport to any Kunai/mark launched or on the ground , he can create openings whenever he wants .


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## Rocky (Oct 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Bee predicted his Hiraishin warp twice. He managed to understand the mechanics of Hiraishin after Minato's one exchange with Ei. Itachi doing the same when he's proven to be far more intelligent than the likes of Kabuto and Bee's adult self isn't far-fetched at all.



One, Hiraishin's mechanics are not difficult to comprehend. 

Two, I do not doubt that Itachi would have been able to accomplish the same feats that B did if placed in the same situation. 

But Itachi is not in the same situation.



NarutoX28 said:


> He did. Not only did Itachi get within his blindspot, Itachi also managed to dupe him with simple crow genjutsu and pressured him with fast hand seal speed.



B broke Itachi's genjutsu with the Hachibi and blocked Itachi's projectiles with the sword tornado, forcing him on the defensive. 



NarutoX28 said:


> When Itachi does analyze the mechanics of Hiraishin, he'll have a far easier time anticipating where he's going to warp and that makes it rather easy to initiate a counter-attack.



To a degree.

But that counter-attack might not work.

Or he might guess the warp point wrong.

Or he might guess the warp timing wrong.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> A tag can be placed on any tangible object. That opens up many possibilities.
> 
> Kunai. Rocks. Clones. The Hokage jacket. A sandal. Anything is a potential warp point.
> 
> It'd be naive to think that Itachi can shut down Hiraishin by just keeping track of kunai.


The thing is all those potential warp points are derived from Minato's movements. They aren't sporadic. Minato has to physically tag each and every object to create a warp point. In essence, Itachi can keep track of all the possibilities by simply keeping track of Minato himself. As well as kunai. Itachi doesn't need to do anything spectacular if he stays away from kunai and keeps track of Minato's movements. 

Now,  probablity speaking Minato's sheer speed makes this difficult for most ninja to do. But again, Itachi with sharingan insight enhancing his already-hyped perceptive abilities makes him pretty qualified to do this.



Rocky said:


> He knows the mechanics. It's in the knowledge.
> 
> It just doesn't necessarily matter.
> 
> ...


Well, I never meant to imply it'd be easy. It's versatile and fast, but it's also telegraphed if you can keep track of kunai and where Minato has been. Fast as he is, Minato isn't moving at V2 speeds without hiraishin.

I don't see much reason to believe Itachi(once he has knowledge) can't keep track of him  and repel kunai. That's what it amounts to really. It sounds simple written out but it's hard in practice because Minato is good at what he does. I'm not saying it'd be easy, and most shinobi would fail given the same knowledge. But for aforementioned reasons I believe Itachi has a good enough resume to do it. 

Itachi's going to make it harder and harder for Minato to get a mark near him as he learns about it. In contrast, Minato can't really build the same amount of adaptability against Itachi's genjutsu as Itachi can against his Hiraishin. If Itachi fails to ensnare him with a crow that randomly flies by for instance, Minato may not even realize Itachi had attempted genjutsu in the first place and may believe it was just some weird crow-kage bushin variant.


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## Rocky (Oct 17, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> In essence, Itachi can keep track of all the possibilities by simply keeping track of Minato himself. As well as kunai.



So, your argument is that Itachi can keep track of all kunai on the field and _anywhere or anything Minato touches_ while simultaneously accounting for Minato, Minato's clones, and anything he or they throw.

...I suppose there's a slim chance of Itachi managing that if he abandoned all attempts to do anything offensively. 



Lawrence777 said:


> Now,  probablity speaking Minato's sheer speed makes this difficult for most ninja to do. But again, Itachi with sharingan insight enhancing his already-hyped perceptive abilities makes him pretty qualified to do this.



Those with enhanced perception perceive instantaneous teleportation the same as those without enhanced perception. 



Lawrence777 said:


> I don't see much reason to believe Itachi(once he has knowledge) can't keep track of him  and repel kunai. That's what it amounts to really.



It's actually much more than that.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 17, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Enlighten us on this world war then?



1
And before you start spouting nonsense like "Obito was lying..."

Same information is also confirmed in the databook :



> To bring peace to the village—no, *to the world*, Itachi carried out the slaughter of his clan.





> Because of his skills, he was chosen by both the village and his clan to work as a spy. He was also extremely intelligent, so he could *take a broader view of the situation*, and this eventually brought him to drench his hands in blood to the point of committing a most terrible sin, thus marking the end of the clan's history. *He is undoubtedly a hero,* yet he never achieved fame and renown.



Civil war is mentioned here again : 1

Kabuto mentions that he stopped* the war : 
*probably meant to say "prevent."
1


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> So, your argument is that Itachi can keep track of all kunai on the field and _anywhere or anything Minato touches_ while simultaneously accounting for Minato, Minato's clones, and anything he or they throw.
> 
> ...I suppose there's a slim chance of Itachi managing that if he abandoned all attempts to do anything offensively.


I don't believe I made myself clear. You could partly imagine the fight. Itachi doesn't have to keep track of 30 or 40 kunai laying on the floor in the distance. He can just keep distance from them as they aren't moving. 

The only kunai he'd have to keep track of are those tossed at him directly by Minato. Luckily, all the kunai tossed by Minato are also coming from the direction of wherever Minato is. So Itachi keeping track of Minato and when/if he throws a kunai at him is killing two birds with one stone so to speak. My argument is Itachi can keep track of Minato(_thereby_ keeping track of tagged objects/thrown kunai). My argument wasn't him keeping track of "all kunai, everything touched, clones" etc, just Minato and what he does.

About clones,  Minato does not usually use clones during fights in character from what we've seen but maybe he will against Itachi. More often than not his fights have been without though so I'm not sure how likely IC what your saying is. Itachi comparatively attempts genjutsu first thing in virtually every fight though.





Rocky said:


> Those with enhanced perception perceive instantaneous teleportation the same as those without enhanced perception.


Yeah he can teleport instantaneously but it wouldn't be anywhere near Itachi. Unless you believe he can keep Itachi w/ knowledge in a giant circle of kunai the whole battle.




Rocky said:


> It's actually much more than that.


Care to elaborate?


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## Rocky (Oct 17, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> Itachi doesn't have to keep track of 30 or 40 kunai laying on the floor in the distance. He can just keep distance from them as they aren't moving.



They are not all in one place.  



Lawrence777 said:


> My argument is Itachi can keep track of Minato(thereby keeping track of tagged objects/thrown kunai. My argument wasn't him keeping track of "all kunai, everything touched, clones" etc, just Minato and what he does.



It is impossible to fully keep track of anything that can instantaneously relocate. Itachi will lose and need to regain track of Minato throughout the fight. Multiple Minatos  (clones) complicate things further. A clone's ability to create and distribute more tags complicate them even more.

Given this, it is unlikely that Itachi manages to keep tabs on all possible warp points. If he happens to overlook one close to him, he will face the same fate as Obito.



Lawrence777 said:


> About clones,  Minato does not usually use clones during fights in character from what we've seen but maybe he will against Itachi. More often than not his fights have been without though so I'm not sure how IC it is.



He used them without concern in the War arc. If Itachi is indeed good enough to stymie Minato's offense without clones, Minato will use clones.



Lawrence777 said:


> Yeah he can teleport instantaneously but it wouldn't be anywhere near Itachi. Unless you believe he can keep Itachi w/ knowledge in a giant circle of kunai the whole battle.


 
The kunai aren't spread in any specific pattern, but they're more of a defense for Minato.

Offense will happen off of tags Itachi doesn't see.


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## Six (Oct 17, 2015)

Can someone explain to me how Minato gets out of Geijutsu in this situation? 
1
1
He certainly has no problem looking the man who he believed to be Madara in the eyes. Most of the arguments is that he'll just keep warping around to avoid but when has he ever done that on panel? All the pro Minato arguments are making him conveniently fight out of character while in character he was cocky enough to look at an Uchiha who wasn't on Itachi's genjutsu level constantly. All Itachi needs is a moments eye contact and tsukuyomi destroys him. Why do you think Kabuto in sage mode with a natural 4.5 in genjutsu that had been further buffed by sage mode blinded himself?


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## hbcaptain (Oct 17, 2015)

Minato has full knowledge , so he will not look on Itachi's eyes , that's all , even Kakashi can feint him using clones  , it will not be such a big deal for someone like the fourth .


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## Six (Oct 17, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Minato has full knowledge , so he will not look on Itachi's eyes , that's all , even Kakashi can feint him using clones  , it will not be such a big deal for someone like the fourth .



So how is he going to beat him then? As far as we're concerned the only person in this series who is trained in fighting without making eye contact is Guy. Minato as far as we're concerned has never done that in his life. 

Kakashi feinted a 30% copy that wasn't even trying. Also Itachi can clone feint a sage user.  

How exactly does Minato win with such a massive crutch?


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## hbcaptain (Oct 17, 2015)

FTG combos are very fast and unpredictable , Minato is in base much faster than Itachi , *if we add clones diversions like did Kakashi .* and deadly FTG combos , then he wins .


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> They are not all in one place.


I never imagined they would be. They would be infront  of him in a cone shape after he distanced himself from them. There's no reason Itachi'd stay near them with knowledge. Him letting Minato throw one behind him with knowledge is even less likely.




Rocky said:


> It is impossible to fully keep track of anything that can instantaneously relocate. Itachi will lose and need to regain track of Minato throughout the fight. Multiple Minatos  (clones) complicate things further. A clone's ability to create and distribute more tags complicate them even more.


He'll be able to immediately regain track of Minato as long as the tags are infront of him. Minato's never used clones to augment his hiraishin in the way your making it out here either. Against Ei or Obito or Juubi Obito.



Rocky said:


> Given this, it is unlikely that Itachi manages to keep tabs on all possible warp points. If he happens to overlook one close to him, he will face the same fate as Obito.


He won't overlook one close to him if he keeps track of Minato.




Rocky said:


> He used them without concern in the War arc. If Itachi is indeed good enough to stymie Minato's offense without clones, Minato will use clones.


During the war arc he also had more stamina than he normally does. You don't know for sure "if Itachi's good enough to stymie Minato's offense, Minato will use clones" either. He's literally never used clones within the context your implying he would here against Itachi even when opponents before have stymied his offense(Obito). 

Itachi isn't the most powerful person he's fought. There's a (more likely than not) chance he will fight Itachi the way he typically fought A/B/Obito. I believe my scenario of Minato not using clones and Itachi starting with genjutsu is more plausible in character given what we've seen each of them do in there respective battles. Fact of the matter is Minato rarely uses clones, I'm skeptical of simply granting him the same in character tendency of using clones Naruto/Kakashi/Itachi have.



Rocky said:


> The kunai aren't spread in any specific pattern, but they're more of a defense for Minato.
> 
> Offense will happen off of tags Itachi doesn't see.


I see quite the contrary playing out.


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## Six (Oct 17, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> FTG combos are very fast and unpredictable , and Minato is a genius plus he is in base much faster , *plus he can use clones diversions like did Kakashi .*



Yes but he can't see Itachi, not being able to make eye contact puts him at a huge disadvantage  especially for attacks like amaterasu or clone feints or exploding clones. Minato as far as wewe are concerned can't tell apart a clone from a real person so for all we know he is ftg slashing an exploding clone. You're just trying your best to downplay Itachi's advantage by giving me bullshit excuses/scenarios. 

You're acting like Itachi is not a genius or unpredictable. Being fast in base doesn't mean shit if you can't see what your opponent is up to. What is he supposed to maintain superiority while avoiding Itachi's eyes and hands?


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> One, Hiraishin's mechanics are not difficult to comprehend.



 Then unfortunately, that is his downfall. As long as one understands it's mechanics and can predict where he's going to warp, it's meaningless. Itachi is well equipped in dealing with it because he has Partial Rib-Cage Susano'o that can easily defend against his techniques from every direction or he can simply fool him with bushin feints and force him to warp to a location that leaves him vulnerable to a counter-attack.



> Two, I do not doubt that Itachi would have been able to accomplish the same feats that B did if placed in the same situation.
> 
> But Itachi is not in the same situation.



 That's true. My main point was that Young Bee who's less reflexive (much less) than Itachi could react and could counter Hiraishin after Minato only had * one * exchange with the Raikage. He managed to anticipate the most unpredictable warp that Minato had performed. Considering somebody far less intelligent and reflexive than Itachi achieved this, why should I believe Itachi would struggle with Hiraishin?





> B broke Itachi's genjutsu with the Hachibi and blocked Itachi's projectiles with the sword tornado, forcing him on the defensive.



 Great. Bee was caught in a genjutsu without realizing it, likewise, a Non-Jinchuuriki such as Minato should be captured in a genjutsu with ease. Sasuke, who's less versatile in genjutsu than Itachi is has captured foes such as Danzo and Deidara who are well-equipped in countering/ perceiving Sharingan Genjutsu. 





> To a degree.
> 
> But that counter-attack might not work.
> 
> ...



 I find that hard to believe when Young Bee did it twice.


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## SupremeKage (Oct 17, 2015)

Itachi vs Minato debates will never end. Someone for the love of god ask kishi who wins


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## hbcaptain (Oct 17, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Yes but he can't see Itachi, not being able to make eye contact puts him at a huge disadvantage  especially for attacks like amaterasu or clone feints or exploding clones. Minato as far as wewe are concerned can't tell apart a clone from a real person so for all we know he is ftg slashing an exploding clone. You're just trying your best to downplay Itachi's advantage by giving me bullshit excuses/scenarios.
> 
> You're acting like Itachi is not a genius or unpredictable. Being fast in base doesn't mean shit if you can't see what your opponent is up to. What is he supposed to maintain superiority while avoiding Itachi's eyes and hands?


Itachi is just fucked without Tsukuyomi , Minato is by far faster and his attacks ways more dangerous . Tsukuyomi make the fight more balanced , if Minato have to care not looking on his eyes , his attacks will be less dangerous , the two of them will have a good fight , but Itachi is loosing du to stamina .

Plus if Minato can't see Itachi moves , his clones can , and meanwhile he can teleport in his back , andItachi can possibly use clones to evade the attack , it's come to each one will make the first mistake , and since the two are extremely smart and Itachi have poor chakra quantity , he will lose .

That's if Itachi is healthy , otherwise he will suffer a lot from every MS use , witch make a deadly opening against someone like Minato .

Edo Itachi>=Alive Minato>Alive Itachi>Alive sick Itachi .


----------



## Rocky (Oct 17, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> I never imagined they would be. They would be infront  of him in a cone shape after he distanced himself from them. There's no reason Itachi'd stay near them with knowledge. Him letting Minato throw one behind him with knowledge is even less likely.



There is no specific formation or distance that Minato was adhere to when creating warp points. If Minato distributes tags throughout the battlefield, the only way Itachi can keep them all in his line of sight is to retreat so that entire the battlefield is in his line of sight.

That is not a path to victory. 



Lawrence777 said:


> You don't know for sure "if Itachi's good enough to stymie Minato's offense, Minato will use clones" either.



Unfortunately, I cannot ask Minato to confirm it for us.

It's likely that Minato will reach the same conclusion that I did, given he knows his own abilities better than I do.



Lawrence777 said:


> He's literally never used clones within the context your implying he would here against Itachi even when opponents before have stymied his offense(Obito).



Obito lost within minutes. Minato's offense was not what I would call "stymied" there.



Lawrence777 said:


> Itachi isn't the most powerful person he's fought. There's a (more likely than not) chance he will fight Itachi the way he typically fought A/B/Obito.



That would be stupid, considering Itachi is nothing like those two.



Lawrence777 said:


> I believe my scenario of Minato not using clones and Itachi starting with genjutsu is more plausible in character given what we've seen each of them do in there respective battles.



Their actions in prior battles were determined the situation and the unique abilities of their respective opponents. 

In other words, they are irrelevant right now.



Lawrence777 said:


> I'm skeptical of simply granting him the same in character tendency of using clones Naruto/Kakashi/Itachi have.



I don't recall doing that.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> As long as one understands it's mechanics and can predict where he's going to warp, it's meaningless.



Indeed, if you have a way to correctly predict the timing and location of his jumps.

Which Itachi doesn't.



NarutoX28 said:


> Considering somebody far less intelligent and reflexive than Itachi achieved this, why should I believe Itachi would struggle with Hiraishin?



Itachi probably could have done everything B did in that situation. 

Since Itachi has no assistance from the Raikage, and he must do more than defend against two of Minato's attacks, I just don't care about what B did.



NarutoX28 said:


> Great. Bee was caught in a genjutsu without realizing it, likewise, a Non-Jinchuuriki such as Minato should be captured in a genjutsu with ease.



Killer B has no need to take the same precautions against genjutsu that Minato would.



NarutoX28 said:


> I find that hard to believe when Young Bee did it twice.



The timing and location of those two jumps were easy to anticipate. The Raikage's unavoidable lightning flickers were forcing Minato's hand.


----------



## Six (Oct 17, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Itachi is just fucked without Tsukuyomi , Minato is by far faster and his attacks ways more dangerous . Tsukuyomi make the fight more balanced , if Minato have to care not looking on his eyes , his attacks will be less dangerous , the two of them will have a good fight , but Itachi is loosing du to stamina .
> 
> Plus if Minato can't see Itachi moves , his clones can , and meanwhile he can teleport in his back , andItachi can possibly use clones to evade the attack , it's come to each one will make the first mistake , and since the two are extremely smart and Itachi have poor chakra quantity , he will lose .
> 
> ...



How exactly is he fucked without tsukuyomi? I could say the exact same for Minato without ftg. He is not by far faster in base in anyway. He is faster yes, but he is not so fast that he can attack Itachi without the latter reacting. Why are you disregarding Itachi's 5 and sharingan precog? 

So Itachi is not capable of using clones now too? They both are, in my opinion, Itachi has shown better clone usage than Minato has, not to mention he outclasses Minato in shurikenjutsu. I don't get why people say he will run out of stamina. He is facing a man who has handicapped himself by not looking in Itachi's and we somehow expect Itachi to be outlasted? Where is the logic in this. Itachi outlasted Sasuke who at he time had a whole tier of stamina above him. Minato was drained by the end of his fight, granted he did have to teleport Kurama. That Minato will outlast him debate is straight garbage because the one time we saw Itachi in full combat he did not do exactly what you all keep squawking out. 

So Minato is just going to dodge all ms attacks that he isn't looking at right? While looking at Itachi's feet he's going to dodge amaterasu huh? I have no problem with the fact that Minato can dodge it if he's looking at him directly but if he is looking elsewhere, even his sensory abilities won't help that much because it was stated in the series that dodging or fighting with sensory techniques is dangerous. 

Not to mention that this out of character af for Minato. Literally every single time he has gone up against an Uchiha he has looked him in the eye. Why do you think he'd make the one exception for Itachi when the man he thought he was fighting was Madara the most powerful Uchiha?


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> There is no specific formation or distance that Minato was adhere to when creating warp points. If Minato distributes tags throughout the battlefield, the only way Itachi can keep them all in his line of sight is to retreat so that entire the battlefield is in his line of sight.
> 
> That is not a path to victory.


Yep, if Minato tags throughout the battlefield, Itachi will back up. That's more IC than Itachi w/ knowledge fighting Minato in an environment of tags littered everywhere.



Rocky said:


> Unfortunately, I cannot ask Minato to confirm it for us.
> 
> It's likely that Minato will reach the same conclusion that I did, given he knows his own abilities better than I do.


Or he won't. You'd have to agree to be fair that your suggesting something ooc as far as we've seen Minato's performances.



Rocky said:


> Obito lost within minutes. Minato's offense was not what I would call "stymied" there.


During those few minutes Minato wasn't making any headway. Instead of making clones or trying trickery he resorted to a final head on overt clash to outspeed Obito. That's more likely than clones because that's what Minato goes for IC.



Rocky said:


> That would be stupid, considering Itachi is nothing like those two.


It'd be in-character.




Rocky said:


> Their actions in prior battles were determined the situation and the unique abilities of their respective opponents.
> 
> 
> In other words, they are irrelevant right now.


Oh no, I think his prior battles are a great way of determining the likelihood of him trying an ooc strategy.




Rocky said:


> I don't recall doing that.


Yeah, your saying Minato's for sure going to use clones to make double the tags and such and such I believe. Or some trickery and others have suggested he's going to try Kakashi-esque feints. Just being fair I think it requires an explanation for why Minato will act that way instead of acting like Minato. Itachi has a reputation for sure but I don't see why Minato's going to do some unorthodox stuff as soon as he starts fighting Itachi.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 17, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> How exactly is he fucked without tsukuyomi? I could say the exact same for Minato without ftg. He is not by far faster in base in anyway. He is faster yes, but he is not so fast that he can attack Itachi without the latter reacting. Why are you disregarding Itachi's 5 and sharingan precog?
> 
> So Itachi is not capable of using clones now too? They both are, in my opinion, Itachi has shown better clone usage than Minato has, not to mention he outclasses Minato in shurikenjutsu. I don't get why people say he will run out of stamina. He is facing a man who has handicapped himself by not looking in Itachi's and we somehow expect Itachi to be outlasted? Where is the logic in this. Itachi outlasted Sasuke who at he time had a whole tier of stamina above him. Minato was drained by the end of his fight, granted he did have to teleport Kurama. That Minato will outlast him debate is straight garbage because the one time we saw Itachi in full combat he did not do exactly what you all keep squawking out.
> 
> ...


No I just said that without Tsukuyomi , Itachi is fucked and with it , the fight is more balanced taht's all .

Euh no , Minato's clone usage is much better , he can use more instantly summon them or instantly switching places depending on situations .

No , even sasuke rivals Itachi in ShurikenJutsu , Minato isn't weaker and he totaly outclass Itachi in KunaiJutsu since it's his speciality and all his combos depend on that .

And so , Itachi can dodge all Minato and clones FTG strikes 

Minato's chakra wasn't drained , his situation is like Usain Bolt after a 100m sprint at full speed , he breath but that doesn't mean he is exhausted . It's just he used a lot of energy in small amout of time that's all , the war clearly showed that he have enough chakra to teleport Juubi's BD wich is tens of times bigger than Kurama .

Secondly even if it was the case , you are talking about Kurama dude , a creature thousands of times more voluminous than someone like Minato , so the fourth must use FTG thousands of times before starting to tire .

His fighting style is like Konan , he nearly don't use chakra .



> Not to mention that this out of character af for Minato. Literally every single time he has gone up against an Uchiha he has looked him in the eye. Why do you think he'd make the one exception for Itachi when the man he thought he was fighting was Madara the most powerful Uchiha?


He looked in Obito's eye because he knows he was controling Kyubi , he looked in Juubito eyes because he was Kurama's Perfect Jinchuriki .


----------



## Rocky (Oct 17, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> Yep, if Minato tags throughout the battlefield, Itachi will back up. That's more IC than Itachi w/ knowledge fighting Minato in an environment of tags littered everywhere.



Sure, but if Itachi doesn't return, it's a loss by BFR. 

With no plot-based incentives, Minato has no reason to pursue Itachi outside of the battlefield. 



Lawrence777 said:


> Or he won't. You'd have to agree to be fair that your suggesting something ooc as far as we've seen Minato's performances.



I don't think you know what "out of character" means. There is nothing about Minato's character that is against using clones in battle.

OOC would be something along the lines of Mei using the acidic mist in a team setting, Nagato using Chibaku Tensei in the Hidden Rain, or Gai using the 8th Gate against an unknown opponent.  



Lawrence777 said:


> During those few minutes Minato wasn't making any headway.



Those minutes don't exist. Minato lunged at Obito and it failed. Then he threw a tag at Obito and won the fight.

That likely won't work against Itachi, so he'll have to dive deeper into his ninjutsu pool. 



Lawrence777 said:


> Oh no, I think his prior battles are a great way of determining the likelihood of him trying an ooc strategy.



Well you are wrong.

None of his prior opponents are comparable to Itachi, so his approach to this fight will be different.



Lawrence777 said:


> Yeah, your saying Minato's for sure going to use clones to make double the tags and such and such I believe.



Kakashi, Naruto, and Itachi do not hold a patent on clones. If Minato feels that they would assist in achieving his goal, he'll use them.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Oct 17, 2015)

Looking directly into an uchihas eye will is where the genjutsu risk lies. This has already been explained. Ohonki even said it about madara. "Dont look DIRECTLY into his eyes. You can look at the opponent, just dont look into their eyes. Incan look at a person without looking into their eyes. I dont know the colour of my works receptionists eyss, because ive never looked directly into them. So i cant tell you the colour, ive only spoken to her while looking at her, but i dont gaze into her eyes,

Ei could not be caught by sasukes eye techniqus because his speed was far too great. Thats why ei said his eyes were no match for him, becsuse it was literally impossible. Raikages speed is a massive counter against uchiha, Thats why ei was shocked and ashamed when madara put him into a genjutsu, which was under extreme circumstances. Tsuande is the one who distracted ei, then madara had to use a wood clone equipped with susanoo to hold ei in place (so he could no longer move), just to place him in genjutsu. So it took a heavily buffed madara, a comrades distraction, and madaras susanoo to pin ei down just to land a genjutsu on him. Lol, thats not happening to minato. Firstly Madara is way stronger than itachi and can use susanoo easily, unlike itschi. Secondly, Minato is faster than Ei. So genjutsu is pretty much a myth.

Those who say Minato looked into obitos eyes like some noob need to re-read. Minato already knew that his opponent was quite possibly madara/an uchiha that was controlling the nine tails with his sharingan. He knew obito was already using genjutsu. So obito is therefore not using it on minato, because it takes a lot to control kurama. Once minato broke e genjutsu, you clearly see minato keeping his head down to ensure eye contact isnt made. Minato knows what hes doing, as a hokage, he can deal with uchiha and their eyes. You cant rule over uchiha and not know how to deal with them.

Edit: Tobirama created clones, so is it out of character for tobirama to use clones because he has little feats with clones? Not sure this guy has a clue what ooc means. Minato tried to defeat obito by using s clone to support a technique that doesnt require clones. Which tells you that minato doesnt mind using clones in battle at all. If it helps nim in a certain situation, then he will use it. Its no different to senjutsu. If the situation calls for it, he will use it. Why do people always try to make up their own opinions on what a character will not do.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sure, but if Itachi doesn't return, it's a loss by BFR.
> 
> With no plot-based incentives, Minato has no reason to pursue Itachi outside of the battlefield.


Maybe the OP can clarify but I don't see how Minato throwing a bunch of kunai @ a target and said target backing away from the kunai is BFR.



Rocky said:


> I don't think you know what "out of character" means. There is nothing about Minato's character that is against using clones in battle.


 He's had around 3-4 battles I believe and used clones in 1 of them in a non-trickery way and in an overt fashion. And in single combat he's never used them to double tags and tag up the whole place.



Rocky said:


> OOC would be something along the lines of Mei using the acidic mist in a team setting, Nagato using Chibaku Tensei in the Hidden Rain, or Gai using the 8th Gate against an unknown opponent.


My definition of out of character is different. Itachi can probably oneshot most kage at the very outset of a battle if he used Amaterasu, which is seal less and extremely fast, as soon as the referee shot the gun signifying match start. He wouldn't do that in character though so I don't say he beats anyone that way. Chances are he'd start with a genjutsu and feint.



Rocky said:


> Those minutes don't exist. Minato lunged at Obito and it failed. Then he threw a tag at Obito and won the fight.
> That likely won't work against Itachi, so he'll have to dive deeper into his ninjutsu pool.


We don't know how he'd act in such a case however. It's fallacious to definitively say "well he's going to use clones for sure now". Who knows whether he'd start using that tactic before Itachi first attempted genjutsu. Or if he'd run through other things in his jutsu repertoire first. He may even think they're too slow and not use them altogether.



Rocky said:


> Well you are wrong.
> 
> None of his prior opponents are comparable to Itachi, so his approach to this fight will be different.


Oh that's fine. Claiming what he's going to do because he's fighting Itachi is much more reaching though because we have no idea what he'd do and it's much more speculative than my scenario of assuming they do what they usually do.



Rocky said:


> Kakashi, Naruto, and Itachi do not hold a patent on clones. If Minato feels that they would assist in achieving his goal, he'll use them.


We don't know whether he would use them, when he would resort to them, whether his degree of expertise with them would be successful against Itachi, etc. It's hard to interject things that aren't IC into a debate.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 17, 2015)

The good old "he can fight without looking at his eyes" argument. 
Never gets old


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## Rocky (Oct 17, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> Maybe the OP can clarify but I don't see how Minato throwing a bunch of kunai @ a target and said target backing away from the kunai is BFR.



If there are tags littered throughout the environment that Minato & Itachi are instructed to compete in, then the only way for Itachi to keep all of them in front of him is to leave that place.

Doing so (and not returning) is a retreat and a loss. 



Lawrence777 said:


> He's had around 3-4 battles I believe and used clones in 1 of them in a non-trickery way and in an overt fashion. And in single combat he's never used them to double tags and tag up the whole place.



I don't really care. 



Lawrence777 said:


> My definition of out of character is different. Itachi can probably oneshot most kage at the very outset of a battle if he used Amaterasu [...] chances are he'd start with a genjutsu and feint.



You need to Google the word "situational."

Itachi would approach a no-knowledge fight with Jiraiya differently than he would approach a full knowledge fight with Mū or a limited-knowledge fight with Minato.

Btw, Amaterasu is a pretty terrible comparison to Kage Bunshin because of the going blind thing.



Lawrence777 said:


> We don't know how he'd act in such a case however. It's fallacious to definitively say "well he's going to use clones for sure now".



If we wanted to "definitively" say anything, this fight would need to happen in the manga.

I said he'd use clones if he felt like it would help, and it would.



Lawrence777 said:


> Oh that's fine. Claiming what he's going to do because he's fighting Itachi is much more reaching though because we have no idea what he'd do and it's much more speculative than my scenario of assuming they do what they usually do.



You aren't "assuming they do what they usually do" because you don't know what they "usually do" in a situation like this one.


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## Six (Oct 17, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> No I just said that without Tsukuyomi , Itachi is fucked and with it , the fight is more balanced taht's all .
> 
> Euh no , Minato's clone usage is much better , he can use more instantly summon them or instantly switching places depending on situations .
> 
> ...


You said he is fucked without Tsukuyomi ND I said Minato is more fucked without ftg. Itachi without Tsukuyomi  is not losing to a Minato without ftg

Again that usage of switching clones has its roots in the ftg and nothing else. Quantity is not the same as quality, just look at the thousand Naruto clones to Kimimaro and no I'm not comparing Minato to pt.1 Naruto. But we'll have to agree to disagree on the clone usage part. Itachi can turn his into bombs and fool sage Kabuto, whose sensing is >>>Minato's. Just imagine if Itachi had been trying to kill Kabuto, that clone that got stabbed would have blonde up right in his face. Itachi's clones are far more dangerous. 

How exactly does Minato out class Itachi in shurikenjutsu?  Using the shadow shuriken jutsu is not the same as being able to completely destroy the shared vision of the rinnegan. The shadow shuriken jutsu is simply throwing kunai and making more clones out of them. Otherwise old Hiruzen >>Itachi in shurikenjutsu, but know the extent to which you and the others try to downplay everything about Itachi, I wouldn't be surprised if you thought that. And no, Itachi completely destroying the rinnegan's shared vision shatters your idea that Sasuke rivals him in that area. Maybe adult Sasuke, but not war Sasuke. 

And yes he was tired, "our last bit" 
1
But unlike you I'm going to give him credit. He teleported a tbb, used a rasengan against Tobi,  performed a contract seal, and transported Kurama and Gamabunta before he was almost depleted. 

Itachi can counter all the kunai being thrown his direction, why are you so ignorant of the Sasuke vs Itachi fight?  Sasuke used a ninjutsu to create so many shuriken while Itachi was just throwing them out his pocket with nothing but skill. Itachi has been shown to be able to redirect kunai if memory serves correctly with his own. 

Jubito I'll give you because at first he could barely control his power. Perfect host Obito was plain idiocy. So what if he was a perfect host?  Does that prevent him from casting his own genjutsu? Don't ignore his staredown with Obito when Naruto was born and the controlling part, since when was it stated in the series to be impossible to have two people under Geijutsu at the same time?  He said Obito didn't want a drawn out fight, he didn't say he was incapable of casting multiple genjutsu, we saw him performing kamui like nothing. If anything he should have avoided eye contact with a perfect host because his genjutsu would be on another level. And so what if he was Kurama's perfect host, setting aside the bs of him using bm less than an hour after he died, being a perfect Jin does not make you immune to genjutsu. Nobody is immune not itachi, not kabuto or Bee?  Why are you ignoring that Killer Bee battle? 

Minato just had the saving grace of never going against genjutsu first opponents, like Itachi.


----------



## Six (Oct 17, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The good old "he can fight without looking at his eyes" argument.
> Never gets old



They speak of it as if its not a hinderence at which baffles me. When Guy is the only confirmed character to be able to fight solely off watching his opponents feet


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 17, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> They speak of it as if its not a hinderence at which baffles me. When Guy is the only confirmed character to be able to fight solely off watching his opponents feet



Whats funnier is, Itachi has a 100% success rate of landing his genjutsu, even when his opponents were aware of it, and were trying to avoid it.

I am really surprised how all of his opponents in BD somehow are perfectly capable of avoiding his genjutsu without hindering themselves.

Based off actual manga evidence, the complite opposite seems to be the more likely outcome, that Itachi successfully lands his genjutsu.


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Indeed, if you have a way to correctly predict the timing and location of his jumps.
> 
> Which Itachi doesn't.



 Itachi can force Minato on the defensive with bushin feints, Shuriken-ninjutsu, mid-range ninjutsu, genjutsu, or Susano'o, so the likelihood of him predicting the timing of his jumps increases. This was emphasized during Minato's fight with Young Ei when Ei managed to easily predict the timing of his jump because he forced him to warp.

 Same situation here, Itachi can force him to warp into a spot that leaves Minato at a disadvantage.

 Predicting where he warps isn't a problem considering Young Bee did it easily after Minato's exchange with Ei which was rather brief.





> Itachi probably could have done everything B did in that situation.
> 
> Since Itachi has no assistance from the Raikage, and he must do more than defend against two of Minato's attacks, I just don't care about what B did.



 Not probably, Itachi would've easily done more than B did in that situation.

 Itachi doesn't need assistance because unlike the Raikage, he's cautious, and has a more versatile arsenal than the Raikage does which makes it easier for Itachi to play it safe and analyze Hiraishin's mechanics.

 You can ignore what B did, but if somebody inferior to Itachi managed to analyze Hiraishin effectively, then Itachi should have no problem doing so which is my main point to begin with.





> Killer B has no need to take the same precautions against genjutsu that Minato would.



 He does considering it leaves  Bee at a disadvantage. 





> The timing and location of those two jumps were easy to anticipate. The Raikage's unavoidable lightning flickers were forcing Minato's hand.



 And Itachi's undetectable maneuvors (against Nagato and Kabuto) would force Minato to warp. Itachi also has an Offense that shields him quite well which will force Minato to warp considering he can't evade Totsuka's speed and range for a long period of time.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Itachi can force Minato on the defensive [...] same situation here, Itachi can force him to warp into a spot that leaves Minato at a disadvantage.



Minato actually doesn't need Hiraishin to evade most of what Itachi can do on offense. Should Minato need it, Itachi won't be able to take advantage because he'll be attacking the spot Minato had just been.

Unfortunatley for Itachi, he lacks the v3 speed necessary to catch Minato in that way. 



NarutoX28 said:


> Predicting where he warps isn't a problem considering Young Bee did it easily after Minato's exchange with Ei which was rather brief.



It's not difficult to predict that Minato would go to the tag he had just flipped above A's shoulder. 



NarutoX28 said:


> Itachi doesn't need assistance because unlike the Raikage, he's cautious, and has a more versatile arsenal than the Raikage does which makes it easier for Itachi to play it safe and analyze Hiraishin's mechanics.



As cool as caution and versatility are, they aren't v2 lightning flickers. 



NarutoX28 said:


> if somebody inferior to Itachi managed to analyze Hiraishin effectively, then Itachi should have no problem doing so which is my main point to begin with.



Itachi does not need to analyse Hiraishin. The OP has granted him knowledge of it.

If you mean beat Hiraishin, he'll have to do more than stop two attacks that happened only because of v2 A in the first place.




NarutoX28 said:


> He does considering it leaves  Bee at a disadvantage.



Funny, it gave B an advantage against Sasuke.



NarutoX28 said:


> And Itachi's undetectable maneuvors (against Nagato and Kabuto) would force Minato to warp. Itachi also has an Offense that shields him quite well which will force Minato to warp considering he can't evade Totsuka's speed and range for a long period of time.



Forcing Minato to warp doesn't do much without the speed to catch him after, even if he did somehow manage to guess right (which he has no way of doing consistently).


----------



## LightningForce (Oct 17, 2015)

This has always been an interesting match-up for me. On the one hand, Minato has FTG and FTG marks. On the other hand, Itachi has genjutsu and Susano'o. Both are also portrayed as a cut above the rest of the geniuses in the manga.

Amaterasu is useless against Minato head-on. If Raikage has the reflexes to dodge them, so should Minato considering he evaded Ay at his top speed just within an inch at the time. As long as Minato keeps on moving, Itachi won't be so careless as to use it and waste chakra when genjutsu could be more effective.

Itachi's clone feints, shurikenjutsu, and Susano'o likewise make him difficult to land a clear hit. Minato also has to be constantly aware of the fact that he's facing a genjutsu specialist, so in just one moment he could be in the Tsukuyomi.

Speed is always an advantage, but against Susano'o it becomes less of a decisive factor.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 17, 2015)

> Speed is always an advantage, but against Susano'o it becomes less of a decisive factor.



Susanoo is useless since it can be teleported away.


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## Hasan (Oct 18, 2015)

Hussain said:


> having no idea that he has a the KEY weakness to Obito's jutsu means he did not have it?
> And you have the guts to say "it's the truth" SMH!
> 
> 
> How does that change the fact that he has the best counterattack there is to Kamui?



Having a counterattack ≠ Knowledge of having a counterattack. He argued the latter—you're dodging his point.



> that has GOT to be the stupidest thing I have read in the last half year.



Analyzing the technique down to its nuts and bolts, and then coming up with counterattacks one after the other is a far more impressive than... realizing the need to hit Tobi while he's tangible, which even a bunch of nobodies did.



> Which Kakashi couldn't figure out.



He did... in what happens to be very first instance, where it's noted that Tobi needs to solidify to attack. Hah. :WOW



Hussain said:


> And then the battle with him started around 560+ and the chapter you provided is 30+ after that.



The story's mega event would naturally span over many chapters, for which the said flashback was one of the many precedents.



> Minato figured out that out and counter it in ONE chapter.



Kakashi figured out the same thing... without fighting him (). In the battle, however, he figured something very different. 



> and even them, Minato did the job by himself. On the other hand, to counter Kamui which you think was simply, needed ALL FOUR OF THEM to replace Minato's
> feat!



Those four would have slaughtered Tobi, had they found themselves in Minato's situation, and... Tobi would have slaughtered Minato, if the latter found himself in the quartet's situation.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 18, 2015)

Hasan said:
			
		

> Kakashi figured out the same thing... without fighting him () In the battle, however, he figured something very different.


Euh , no Minato figure it out AND elaborated a strategy in two exchanges, Kakashi needs a lot of Ex-Genin attacks to understand a little of it .


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## Trojan (Oct 18, 2015)

> =Hasan;54553586]Having a counterattack ≠ Knowledge of having a counterattack. He argued the latter—you're dodging his point.


Which is Kakashi's problem. We are talking about intelligence. Kakashi not knowing that for 17 years 
(Even tho their eyes are connected and they could see what the other one see) is his own problem.





> Analyzing the technique down to its nuts and bolts, and then coming up with counterattacks one after the other is a far more impressive than... realizing the need to hit Tobi while he's tangible, which even a bunch of nobodies did.


Must be why he needed hundreds of chapter to come with such a conclusion. Analyzing the jutsu
and then needing team effort to barely replace the feats is not comparable to someone who just saw the jutsu and countered it right away by himself. 

Well, Kakashi is less than those nobodies then. Simple.  



> He did... in what happens to be very first instance, where it's noted that Tobi needs to solidify to attack. Hah. :WOW


That's Yamato not Kakashi. 
and still, they couldn't stop him or attack him. 

Minato's feat is not impressive because he knew how that jutsu work after the first time he saw it
(what you listed is not their first time seeing it btw), but that he countered it right away. Something, Kakashi & co couldn't after MUCH more time dealing with the jutsu. 

and in relatation to this thread, neither was itachi in 10+ years. 


> The story's mega event would naturally span over many chapters, for which the said flashback was one of the many precedents.


So? 
You're not trying to say that the amount they took is less than the few pages Minato did it with, right?  

At least, I hope you are not...


> Kakashi figured out the same thing... without fighting him (). In the battle, however, he figured something very different.


Again, the time different is an important factor and you keep ignoring it. 
And I don't know what you mean by "without fighting him" because if you mean in the War, then they
were fighting him obviously. If you mean the hotel, then you're ignoring that they fought him previously when they were headed to Sasuke/itachi's battle. 


> Those four would have slaughtered Tobi, had they found themselves in Minato's situation, and... Tobi would have slaughtered Minato, if the latter found himself in the quartet's situation.



No

you probably want to make it out like Kurama is a cute little fox who would apologize to the villagers for attacking them and that he was not in control of
his action (Which did not happen after obito lost control). And try to portray Obito as the mentally retarded (he is of course, but not in the situation you try to convey) that kept Kurama under his control even tho he's making him weaker (and of course ignoring that he was controlling several Bijuus when he fought Kakashi and the rest)

And ignoring that Kurama was a summon, so he naturally have a limited amount of time (like Gamabunta, and Katsuyu in the War). And Obito's fans still try to pass it out as a summon is a burden on the summoner!  then why did they summon it in the first place? 


But anyway go ahead, and tell us how that will happen if they were to be in each other situations. 

Small Note: the Obito they fought is Actually already marked. Minato would have fucked his ass dry and painful and ended the war before it even started.  As he fucked him with a clone. 

Note2: the translation is different than what Viz has as well...


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## UchihaX28 (Oct 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Minato actually doesn't need Hiraishin to evade most of what Itachi can do on offense. Should Minato need it, Itachi won't be able to take advantage because he'll be attacking the spot Minato had just been.



 Itachi has Shuriken Ninjutsu that evaded detection from Nagato's Shared Vision, Bushin-feints that managed to strike Kabuto's horns, the same guy who could casually evade Susano'o Arrow, and Totsuka Blade that has a large range and managed to blitz Orochimaru.

 This is all enough to pressure Minato into warping.

 Itachi won't take advantage of Minato's warp even though Young Raikage formed a strategy that revolved around forcing him to warp and striking his warp spot? You're truly downplaying Itachi's intelligence here if you think he can't do something that even Young Raikage managed to do.



> Unfortunatley for Itachi, he lacks the v3 speed necessary to catch Minato in that way.



 He doesn't need to.

 Pressure, predict warp spot and initiate a counter-attack. That's a viable strategy as implied by the Raikage and is further emphasized when Bee managed to predict Minato's warp spot.





> It's not difficult to predict that Minato would go to the tag he had just flipped above A's shoulder.



 And even easier when someone like Itachi has the Sharingan which specializes in reading one's body movements.





> As cool as caution and versatility are, they aren't v2 lightning flickers.



 Not sure why you would need V2 Lightning Flickers. Utilizing strategic maneuvors is enough to even tag some of the more reflexive people in the manga as shown with Itachi against SM Kabuto.





> Itachi does not need to analyse Hiraishin. The OP has granted him knowledge of it.
> 
> If you mean beat Hiraishin, he'll have to do more than stop two attacks that happened only because of v2 A in the first place.



 Itachi having complete knowledge of Hiraishin implies that as long as he reads Minato's body movements, then he is able to identify which area Minato tagged and counter-attack accordingly.






> Funny, it gave B an advantage against Sasuke.



 Funny, the opposite happened with Itachi against Bee.





> Forcing Minato to warp doesn't do much without the speed to catch him after, even if he did somehow manage to guess right (which he has no way of doing consistently).



 Itachi doesn't necessarily need speed.

 He has Amaterasu and Susano'o that aids in doing so, but speed isn't the only factor needed here. It's the ability to formulate a wide variety of moves in advance and force your opponent to move in a specific way. This is something Itachi's skilled at as implied during Itachi's battle with Sasuke or when Itachi managed to get Kabuto to repeat the same moves he had already done to initiate Izanami.


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## Rocky (Oct 18, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> You're truly downplaying Itachi's intelligence here if you think he can't do something that even Young Raikage managed to do.



I never said Itachi couldn't come up with what A came up with. 

It wouldn't be a very good plan though.

Unless Itachi has a v3 flicker I'm unaware of.



NarutoX28 said:


> Pressure, predict warp spot and initiate a counter-attack.



And miss.

You do realize that A's plan never worked out, right? A never beat Minato.



NarutoX28 said:


> Utilizing strategic maneuvors is enough to even tag some of the more reflexive people in the manga as shown with Itachi against SM Kabuto.



Maybe if Kabuto was as fast as Minato, he'd have been able to save his horn. Luckily for him, losing the horn was not the end of the world. 

Minato's even luckier; he doesn't even have horns.



NarutoX28 said:


> Funny, the opposite happened with Itachi against Bee.



It didn't. It was broken before B was harmed, which is why he doesn't tend to worry about it.



NarutoX28 said:


> It's the ability to formulate a wide variety of moves in advance and force your opponent to move in a specific way.



Itachi can try, but unlike his fight with Kabuto, he is not immortal, untiring, and assisted by EMS Sasuke.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 18, 2015)

This is still going on?

They solo each other and get married as the two solo kings of the Naruto universe.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Unless Itachi has a v3 flicker I'm unaware of.



I made you aware of it you summabitch!


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## Hasan (Oct 19, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Euh , no Minato figure it out AND elaborated a strategy in two exchanges, Kakashi needs a lot of Ex-Genin attacks to understand a little of it .



That's because he made it obvious in both those exchanges.  Two—Kakashi arrived at the same conclusion that Minato did. 



Hussain said:


> Which is Kakashi's problem. We are talking about intelligence. Kakashi not knowing that for 17 years
> (Even tho their eyes are connected and they could see what the other one see) is his own problem.



Seek out the man you saw die infront of your very eyes; make connections with an ocular power that shouldn't exist, because the eye that's supposed to carry it was–to your knowledge–crushed. Genius... Really, Hussain?  Two—Were there any such allusions, Kakashi would have noted it. This is the first and only time he experiences a 'shared vision'.



> Must be why he needed hundreds of chapter to come with such a conclusion.



If you see a person slipping through your attacks, your only conclusion would be that "he slips through my attacks". You won't reach Kakashi's conclusion, just from that. Two—The war is the time when they confronted each other in a proper fight. Three—It's only 1 chapter.



> Analyzing the jutsu
> and then needing team effort to barely replace the feats is not comparable to someone who just saw the jutsu and countered it right away by himself.
> 
> Well, Kakashi is less than those nobodies then. Simple.



Irrelevant. You argued Minato being captain obvious was more impressive than Kakashi's analysis which explained the technique's inner working. There's no comparison–at all. Kakashi's better.



> That's Yamato not Kakashi.
> and still, they couldn't stop him or attack him.





Really, Hussain?



> Minato's feat is not impressive because he knew how that jutsu work after the first time he saw it
> (what you listed is not their first time seeing it btw), but that he countered it right away. Something, Kakashi & co couldn't after MUCH more time dealing with the jutsu.
> 
> and in relatation to this thread, neither was itachi in 10+ years.



Irrelevant to this particular point. You said Fuu and Torune figured Kamui out, but Kakashi didn't. You were wrong.



> So?
> You're not trying to say that the amount they took is less than the few pages Minato did it with, right?
> 
> At least, I hope you are not...



Not at all. You, on the other hand, seem to make a big deal about the _number_ of chapters it took Minato and Kakashi to hit Obito since their first encounter.



> Again, the time different is an important factor and you keep ignoring it.
> And I don't know what you mean by "without fighting him" because if you mean in the War, then they
> were fighting him obviously. If you mean the hotel, then you're ignoring that they fought him previously when they were headed to Sasuke/itachi's battle.



When he halts Team Konoha on their way to reach Sasuke, yes. Hardly did it constitute a fight, as it was more like Obito having fun... and Kakashi did not partake.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> No
> 
> you probably want to make it out like Kurama is a cute little fox who would apologize to the villagers for attacking them and that he was not in control of
> his action (Which did not happen after obito lost control). And try to portray Obito as the mentally retarded (he is of course, but not in the situation you try to convey) that kept Kurama under his control even tho he's making him weaker (*and of course ignoring that he was controlling several Bijuus when he fought Kakashi and the rest*)
> ...



Nope. I'm not trying to make it look like anything except what was very clearly stated: The Kyuubi was of great concern to Obito, so the battle had to conclude quickly. That's why he rushed in to warp Minato, and failed... and not something that'd happen normally. 

Regarding the bolded part: Yeah, with Rinnegan—with mastery outright stated to be beyond Nagato's.




> But anyway go ahead, and tell us how that will happen if they were to be in each other situations.



Minato gets butchered? . Kushina would rise from the dead to beg Obito to stop humiliating her husband.



> Small Note: the Obito they fought is Actually already marked. Minato would have fucked his ass dry and painful and ended the war before it even started.  As he fucked him with a clone.



Left at death's door courtesy of Kakashi, and controlled and restrained by Madara.



> Note2: the translation is different than what Viz has as well...



It says nothing different.


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## Crow (Oct 19, 2015)

Minato wins period point blank man.
He can counter Itachi. Itachi can't outlast Minato in the form of Chakra reserves and whatever itachi throws at him he can get away from. If itachi and Minato clash, minato will mark him and then it will be over. Minato wins this one Mid Diff. I dont want to hear all that bullshit about the Tosuka or PS or anything. He can't support all that shit with his weak ass chakra reserves.


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## Icegaze (Oct 19, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Danzo said there is no telling what he can do.
> 
> So their intel at best was very vague, since they had to act and "confirm" things.
> Eitherway, they made their analysis based on their observations at point, and Obito complimented them on it.



They had Intel, something u admitted to in the first few words of your post . So their Intel !! 
Minato had none what so ever and then analysed obito jutsu in much more detail than they did . 

Therefore by definition him figuring it out in the same time frame is more impressive 

Hope u can figure that out


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## superzab (Oct 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Someone worked perfectly, the other failed miserably.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




once in a decade genius?   hears a once in generation genius as described by hiruzen 2 and we know whatitachi did to him,  add further that orochi stated his genius pales in comparison to hebi sasukes... thanks for adding to itachis hype


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## Trojan (Oct 19, 2015)

What a dumb comparison. 
Look to what happened to Obito and Izuna. 


@Hasan
I'll probably reply later to your post


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## Trojan (Oct 20, 2015)

> [=Hasan;54561460]
> Seek out the man you saw die infront of your very eyes; make connections with an ocular power that shouldn't exist, because the eye that's supposed to carry it was?to your knowledge?crushed. Genius... Really, Hussain?  Two?Were there any such allusions, Kakashi would have noted it. This is the first and only time he experiences a 'shared vision'.


They are not in our world. He know/saw people literally come out to life again, so how is that not a possibility? 

Nah, the first time was at the moment Rin died. 
and before you saw "that was obito), then their vision is connected, it does not matter which one...
and there were 18 years from then, just because we haven't seen those day by day does not mean
"necessarily" that it did not happen.


> If you see a person slipping through your attacks, your only conclusion would be that "he slips through my attacks". You won't reach Kakashi's conclusion, just from that. Two?The war is the time when they confronted each other in a proper fight. Three?It's only 1 chapter.


Man, if there is more than 1 solution, then there is more. No one said it has to be the same thing.
The end result, they both reached the same goal "hitting Obito". However, one reached that conclusion and did it by himself in much less time, and the other did the same thing with 3 people's help in much longer time. It's obvious as day that what Minato did is more impressive... 

Again, they met before the War several times, and no, it is not 1 chapter. The battle started way
before Kakashi came to his conclusion...

Irrelevant. You argued Minato being captain obvious was more impressive than Kakashi's analysis which explained the technique's inner working. There's no comparison?at all. Kakashi's better.




> Really, Hussain?



If you don't mean the 3rd panel
first and only time
Then what panel did you mean? 


> Irrelevant to this particular point. You said Fuu and Torune figured Kamui out, but Kakashi didn't. You were wrong.


you were the one who bringing those "nobodies" in the scene tho, not me. 
what you said (from memory) that Minato's feat is not impressive because "nobodies" were able
to do the same or something, and IIRC, I told you if they did the same, then they are better than
Kakashi who needed much time. But I don't feel like reading what was previously said anyway... 


> Not at all. You, on the other hand, seem to make a big deal about the _number_ of chapters it took Minato and Kakashi to hit Obito since their first encounter.


Yes because time is important obviously. If you see someone who comes in a talent show and can
solve a complex mathematical problem faster than a calculator can, he is impressive because of that.

Not because no one could ever solve said problem in a longer time. The time different here is what
makes the different because both conclusions are correct. 



> When he halts Team Konoha on their way to reach Sasuke, yes. Hardly did it constitute a fight, as it was more like Obito having fun... and Kakashi did not partake.


Having "fun" by SHOWING his jutsu, Kamui. Just because he is "having fun" that does not change the fact that the jutsu and how it function is exactly the same any nothing is different about it.





> Nope. I'm not trying to make it look like anything except what was very clearly stated: The Kyuubi was of great concern to Obito, so the battle had to conclude quickly. That's why he rushed in to warp Minato, and failed... and not something that'd happen normally.


And? 
Each jutsu/aid...etc 
has their power and based on that it will cost more. That how things work.

and funny you said "rushed in to warp Minato" As if he was going to do anything else in other way. 
Wasn't he also trying to warp Naruto, Kakashi, and Gai? Don't try to convince yourself that he was going to fight differently. We have seen his fights, and they are all the same whether they are with Turoni/Fu, Konan, Naruto & co....etc etc he does that exact same thing. 

and he would have done the same with or without Kurama... 

Otherwise, it's also easy to say Minato rushed to finish him because he is worry about the village. In normal cases, he would have used an upper jutsu
(FTG V3 instead of V2 for example). 


> Regarding the bolded part: Yeah, with Rinnegan?with mastery outright stated to be beyond Nagato's.


Which was reteconned later on when Kishi was trying to hype Madara up about the 2 eyes, and   
Obito barely being able to handle 1. Regardless, the only thing that was stated for him to be better
is really the black rods being stronger. 



> Minato gets butchered? . Kushina would rise from the dead to beg Obito to stop humiliating her husband.


I am telling you how will that happen, not what you think will happen. 
Because in case you haven't noticed, Kurama is far stronger than all those 6 Bijuu he had at the war
combined.  and by a huge different in power as well. 

Needless to say, he would have lost all of them do to the contract Seal.  



> Left at death's door courtesy of Kakashi, and controlled and restrained by Madara.


Yeah, because that changes the fact that he will be still marked as Minato's bitch? 
the ONLY way he would have is to keep being untouchable at *ALL* time, literally.  

Otherwise, a Contract seal (and there goes all the Bijuus), and slashes any time the Kamui stops lol.


> It says nothing different.


It does. He is not saying "it's a risk if he attacks" (or whatever the exact words were)

also the "it takes a long time to summon the Kyuubi" (which I don't know what he means by it honestly)


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## Big Bοss (Oct 20, 2015)

Minato wins low diff.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 20, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> They had Intel, something u admitted to in the first few words of your post . So their Intel !!
> Minato had none what so ever and then analysed obito jutsu in much more detail than they did .
> 
> Therefore by definition him figuring it out in the same time frame is more impressive
> ...



I figured it out don't worry. 
I am just waiting for you to figure out that the intel they had amounted to nothing.


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