# Spoiler 662: Who's the strongest character that Hiruzen can defeat?



## Trojan (Jan 22, 2014)

What do you think of him in the last chapter?
He was facing Hashirama's strongest jutsu, and he used such an amazing feats.

and that's all OLD Hiruzen. 
so much for the retcon. (oh however it spells)


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## Ghost (Jan 22, 2014)

He can defeat the rookies bar Nardo and Sauce.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 22, 2014)

That's thing wasn't Hashirama's strongest jutsu.


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## SharinganKisame (Jan 22, 2014)

That was awesome seeing Hiruzen doing something else than throwing shurikens. Now we know he can uses five elements and that alone is enough to move him up on the power levels scale, but we haven't seen enough from him yet. I think he could beat Mei or other heavy elemental ninjutsu users.


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## Trojan (Jan 22, 2014)

alex payne said:


> That's thing wasn't Hashirama's strongest jutsu.



Hashi has a stronger jutsu than the Buddha?


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 22, 2014)

I was a doubter, but I'm fucking glad Hiruzen proved me wrong. I always wanted Hiruzen to show more than just being old. 

Btw, that wasn't nearly on the scale of Hashirama's Shinsuusenju. And I dunno if his can do that with the 5 elements. 

But on topic, I'd say Part I Kakashi he'd have a good shot at winning. Maybe he could take out Darui with elemental advantages.


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## Bonly (Jan 22, 2014)

Finally he did something nice but all he does is slightly move up the chain in the low kage level tier. He still has bad has stamina while alive and still can't do as much as he can as an Edo. Not sure who's the strongest he can beat but chances are it'll likely be the same person as before this weeks chapter.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 22, 2014)

Elia said:


> Hashi has a stronger jutsu than the Buddha?


Yes. Buddha boosted by Senjutsu. This thing is several times smaller.


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## ARGUS (Jan 22, 2014)

Elia said:


> Hashi has a stronger jutsu than the Buddha?



CK from hashirama not only resisted 5-6 TBB but also counteracted and destroyed PS effortlessly 
So Yh CK is his most powerful offensive technique


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## Krippy (Jan 22, 2014)

Maybe Sakura, dead sasuke or dead naruto if plot shield is restricted


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## Nikushimi (Jan 22, 2014)

Hiruzen didn't really show anything new except more elements. The Ninjutsu were all on the same scale we've seen him use before, and with no new special nuances or characteristics.

Nothing's really changed.

I'd say he might be able to beat Mei, but that's about it.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jan 22, 2014)

You mean a cheap knock off of Hashirama's strongest jutsu. It's far far far weaker than the original, which is evident by its size alone.

As for the topic, Hiruzen still isn't beating any kind of high/top tier. The 5 elements aren't all that impressive nowadays.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 22, 2014)

Being able to use every element at such a scale is a pretty neat ability. Especially for someone as intelligent and knowledgeable as Sarutobi. He can counter a lot of people easily. 

I'd say Mei or Kakuzu.


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## Trojan (Jan 22, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Yes. Buddha boosted by Senjutsu. This thing is several times smaller.





The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> You mean a cheap knock off of Hashirama's strongest jutsu. It's far far far weaker than the original, which is evident by its size alone.
> 
> As for the topic, Hiruzen still isn't beating any kind of high/top tier. The 5 elements aren't all that impressive nowadays.



Well, it's true that this Buddha is weaker. But, so is Hiruzen. U_U
anyway, I just find it interesting that he can use all 5 elements. That's actually support that he
knows all the jutsus in konoha. U_U


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## Chad (Jan 22, 2014)

Elia, what if I said Jiraiya?


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## Mercurial (Jan 22, 2014)

Kakuzu can do that shit much better, without being an Edo who doesn't end his chakra.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 22, 2014)

Elia said:


> He was facing Hashirama's strongest jutsu, and he used such an amazing feats.



Comparing Spiral Zetsu to Hashirama Senju is like comparing a kid with a BB gun to a Navy SEAL Sniper.

Spiral Zetsus' was barely Bijū-sized. The only advantage Spiral Zetsu has is that he can use the 5 elements along with it.


As for your question, probably around Tobirama levels if I'm incorporating his potential power. Strictly by feats, he still didn't move up all that much.


To answer your _*real*_ question, no, he is not stronger than Hashirama.


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## Trojan (Jan 22, 2014)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Comparing Spiral Zetsu to Hashirama Senju is like comparing a kid with a BB gun to a Navy SEAL Sniper.
> 
> Spiral Zetsus' was barely Bijū-sized. The only advantage Spiral Zetsu has is that he can use the 5 elements along with it.
> 
> ...



lol, I did not think that his feats in this chapter are enough to put him above Hashirama.
Even though Hashirama is overrated like hell. 

- even if he did not move all that much, but at least he's better now. Some people were seeing
him as a completely fodder. lol 
Now, at least he's (IMO) at the very least stronger than Kakuzu. U_U


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 22, 2014)

Elia said:


> lol, I did not think that his feats in this chapter are enough to put him above Hashirama.
> Even though Hashirama is overrated like hell.
> 
> - even if he did not move all that much, but at least he's better now. Some people were seeing
> ...



You have said Prime Hiruzen>Hashirama, Elia.


But you are absolutely right about everything else.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 22, 2014)

Those shots were pretty big.  Easily anything Kakuzu could do.  Sarutobi could definitely take Kakuzu now, and that's not something you could say before.


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## Trojan (Jan 22, 2014)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> You have said Prime Hiruzen>Hashirama, Elia.
> 
> 
> But you are absolutely right about everything else.



Yes, I said it, and actually this chapter makes me think more that his hype is real. U_U
but, we will see. Hashirama & Tobirama are out as of now. We only have Hiruzen and Minato left.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 22, 2014)

If Prime Hiruzen could casually spam all elements that's be something.  Especially with a mokuton smashing Enma staff he could wield casually with tier 5 speed.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jan 22, 2014)

It was actually decent. 4 shadow clones using big elements like that all at once is some kage level shit for sure.

He can now leave the mei, mifune and kakuzu tier without a doubt imo.


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## Ersa (Jan 22, 2014)

It'll definitely move him out of the Low Kage tier where he was with Kakuzu and the 4th Kazekage but he should be closer to people like Tsunade now, potentially above Mei.

Base Hashirama still wipes the floor with him.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 22, 2014)

The amount of Kakazu underestimation here is unbelievable, he has Moves besides the Elements you know, Hiruzen still cannot beat him in his tendril form. Anyway, I'm very happy the old man got some feats to demonstrate, I knew he had it in him. I don't see why he can't beat Tsunade at this point. He could give the likes of Sasori, Kakazu and Deidara a high-diff fight now. Some more feats and he can potentially surpass them soon.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 22, 2014)

I'd say he'd give Kakuzu a good fight.


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## the_symbol_of_rebirth (Jan 22, 2014)

Look at those mountains. Hashirama's strongest jutsu is by far the largest summon in Naruto. 
1 hand can easily grab a 100% Kyuubi. It looks like a little puppy. Hashi summon is at least 50 times taller than the thing Zetsu summoned and it has a 1000 hands. Hiruzen did a good job but please dont compare that Zetsu summon to Hashi's.


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## ueharakk (Jan 22, 2014)

its interesting that oonoki alone wasn't able to defeat or even noticeably damage the buddah despite its body being even smaller than that of hashirama's mokujin and more comparable to the likes of gedo mazou.

Hiruzen got a massive hype boost in this last chapter where he's basically carrying the good guys team against the buddah, but featwise, using 5 elements at the same time doesn't put him much higher than he was before if those elemental jutsus were all not that impressive.  IF PIS were off, the alliance would have done the attack they did on the juubi's tails, or we'd see oonoki using jinton on the thing or tsunade amping his strength and using jinton, or kitsuchi would be mountain smashing the thing.

In addition to that, the mokubuddah is technically "hashirama's strongest jutsu" just like susanoo is technically "EMS Madara's strongest jutsu".  So hiruzen dealing with a buddah that's so small it could probably fit on the head of Hashirama's version doesn't have anything to do with how he stacks up against SM Hashirama.


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## Trojan (Jan 22, 2014)

^

The SA were out of chakra, no? @,@
as for Hiruzen, IMO I put him above the like of Kakuzu, Deidara, Sasori...etc
with his feats currently.


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## ARGUS (Jan 22, 2014)

Even though there was some character development for hiruzen,, we still knew that he was knowledgeable,,
and was already stated to have mastered over 1000 jutsu so the 5 element thing wasnt too surprising, 

which still doesnt change his rankings too much,,, 
His 5 elements still doesnt mean much to top tiers,,, and most of the high tiers can counter those techniques as well,,, i'd say that hiruzen is atleast low kage level though,, in the same tier as part 1 sannin
he can give Mei a good fight as well fourth kazekage
but honestly i do not see him beating kakuzu,,, he's far too versatile


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## Jak N Blak (Jan 22, 2014)

Base Hashirama easily.


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## Turrin (Jan 22, 2014)

Um I don't know why people are saying Hiruzen feats this chapter didn't change much about his ranking. He had the least impressive feats of any Kage before this chapter and was only really kept within the range of Part II Kages through possessing Shiki Fuujin. Now he is suddenly able to create 4 Clones, use all 5 Elemental recompositions, showed massive Elemental Jutsu (look at how small the alliance members are in comparison) & strong enough to counter Buddha's own elemental Jutsu (it's not Hashirama's size, but still it's Buddha), and somehow was able to ether copy Buddha's Jutsu nigh instantly or simply has such a large Jutsu pull he was able to use the exact same Jutsu in all the affinities as Buddha. He also did this all while being old and out of his Prime. His ranking should be much higher now.

To answer op's question of whose the strongest he can beat. First are we talking Old Hiruzen or Prime Hiruzen? Ether way w/ all 5 Nature Alterations and Hiruzen's other abilities he's really well equipped to counter the Jutsu of others. Anyway here's what I think:

Old Hiruzen -  the strongest he can beat is probably is Nindaime Mizukage. Sense of Smell to counter Clam's Mist. Raiton to counter Suika no Jutsu (so long as the Oil Suika no Jutsu doesn't change this weakness) and Dotons to counter other Suitions. Enma, KB, and Dotons to survive Joki Boi Explosions. Using some of the elements he might be able to disturb Joki' Boi's reformation process and counter it that way; if not than Hiruzen should be able to use Shiki Fuujin to seal Joki Boi &/or Mizukage; defeating the Mizukage in exchange for his life. 

Maybe I think of other characters he can beat later as again the 5 Elements + Hiruzen's other shit is great for countering various shinobi's abilities, but anyway off the top of my head he seems like a really good counter to the Mizukage, especially if he can intefer w/ Joki Boi using other elements to effect the heat/cool/atmosphere effects of the Jutsu.

Prime Hiruzen - If he can use Elemental Jutsu on that scale and at the same time as an Old Man, in his Prime he should be able to use even large Elemental Jutsu or at least more numerous ones. We've already been told he could clone Shuriken 1,000 times in the DB, which i'm assuming is only held back by his chakra supply when Old. Additionally if he does indeed have 5s in all his stats in his Prime, than he could probably defeat some of the strongest characters in the manga cannon (not Hashirama and Madara tho, he hasn't shown that level of strength yet).


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## Nikushimi (Jan 22, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Those shots were pretty big.  Easily anything Kakuzu could do.  Sarutobi could definitely take Kakuzu now, and that's not something you could say before.



I have doubts that Sarutobi's Ninjutsu are as powerful as Kakuzu's; we saw Kakashi use two Raikiri at the same time just to neutralize Gian.

Barring that, there's the more obvious observation that Hiruzen is old and decrepit whereas Kakuzu (in spite of his age) is still in good health. There oughtta be a significant difference in the potency of their chakras.


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## Psp123789 (Jan 22, 2014)

The strongest is Itachi.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 22, 2014)

Psp123789 said:


> The strongest is Itachi.


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## Psp123789 (Jan 22, 2014)

Hey i'm only saying the truth hermano  or am I?


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## crystalblade13 (Jan 22, 2014)

on a quick note. swirlys buddha also only had, likely around 50 arms. compared to the thousands hashi's had.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 22, 2014)

crystalblade13 said:


> on a quick note. swirlys buddha also only had, likely around 50 arms. compared to the thousands hashi's had.



Swirly's Budha is at best as big as 100% Kurama (actually they seem to be roughly even), so Hashiramas Budha can probably pick up Swirlys with his hand like it did to Kurama. Still, Swirly's Budha puts him in the low end of  Demi-God Tier or High End of the High-Kage tier IMO and something that it has as opposed to Hashiramas (at least feat wise) is some large AoE Ninjutsu. Still, to say Hiruzen has surpassed the likes of Kakazu is to far farfetched as of yet (though it might happen In a couple of chapters), for now, after further revision, he can take down a tailed beast ( other than Shukaku, Hachibi and Kurama) if he plays his cards right and avoids the Bijudamas. Its also important to note that his chakra reserves where low not because of his age (or rather it did not seem like it), as many old people (Kakazu, Danzo, Ōnoki etc......) have shown much more impressive chakra reserves despite being as old or even older then him, and its not like Hiruzen was suffering from any illness either, as a mortal, it seems he simply was not a chakra monster.


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## Marsala (Jan 22, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> The amount of Kakazu underestimation here is unbelievable, he has Moves besides the Elements you know, Hiruzen still cannot beat him in his tendril form. Anyway, I'm very happy the old man got some feats to demonstrate, I knew he had it in him. I don't see why he can't beat Tsunade at this point. He could give the likes of Sasori, Kakazu and Deidara a high-diff fight now. Some more feats and he can potentially surpass them soon.



Hiruzen can counter the tentacles with Enma, and he has all of the elements to counter every mask. He can definitely beat Kakuzu.

However, Hiruzen would probably still be outmatched against Deidara and Kisame, not to mention Orochimaru and Jiraiya going all-out, and even Tobirama and Minato's more subtle speed-reliant style would be effective against him.


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## Jagger (Jan 22, 2014)

Elia said:


> Yes, I said it, and actually this chapter makes me think more that his hype is real. U_U
> but, we will see. Hashirama & Tobirama are out as of now. We only have Hiruzen and Minato left.


Yes, you're extremely right, Elia.

Prime Hiruzen is capable of achieving a Ninjutsu capable of overwhelming and defeating something as something as big as Shinsuusenju.


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## Jagger (Jan 22, 2014)

Jak N Blak said:


> Base Hashirama easily.


No, he can't.

He lacks the stamina and raw power to beat Base Hashirama.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 22, 2014)

Marsala said:


> Hiruzen can counter the tentacles with Enma, and he has all of the elements to counter every mask. He can definitely beat Kakuzu.



He would get overwhelmed, Kakazu can maneuver his Tendrils and they attack at a very fast rate. Furthermore, if this is mortal Hiruzen he won't have enough chakra to make 4 shadow clones and create such large scale attacks.,



> However, Hiruzen would probably still be outmatched against Deidara and Kisame, not to mention Orochimaru and Jiraiya going all-out, and even Tobirama and Minato's more subtle speed-reliant style would be effective against him.



Yes he would, and Kakazu is stronger then Deidara


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## ARGUS (Jan 22, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> He would get overwhelmed, Kakazu can maneuver his Tendrils and they attack at a very fast rate. Furthermore, if this is mortal Hiruzen he won't have enough chakra to make 4 shadow clones and create such large scale attacks.,
> 
> 
> 
> Yes he would, and Kakazu is stronger then Deidara



Its KAKUZU not kakazu


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## ARGUS (Jan 22, 2014)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Comparing Spiral Zetsu to Hashirama Senju is like comparing a kid with a BB gun to a Navy SEAL Sniper.
> 
> Spiral Zetsus' was barely Bijū-sized. The only advantage Spiral Zetsu has is that he can use the 5 elements along with it.
> 
> ...



too bad i cant rep u for this post 
ahahahahaahahahha


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## ARGUS (Jan 22, 2014)

Elia said:


> ^
> 
> The SA were out of chakra, no? @,@
> as for Hiruzen, IMO I put him above the like of Kakuzu, Deidara, Sasori...etc
> with his feats currently.



he is still gna get stomped by Deidara and Sasori 
he doesnt have the sharingan to see that raiton is his C4 weakness
and he also cannot effectively attack deidara since he lacks the proper long range technique 
Enma isnt doing shit,, if he can fly kilometres away and proceed to nuke him

Sasori is also beating him quite easily,,, Hiruzen cannot evade all of the things that sasori throws at him and is bound to get poisoned,,,, so is his enma 
third kazekages iron sand is also troublesome for hiruzen and the 100 puppets wll end him for sure... 

he fares off much better against kakuzu but still i dnt see him winning,,, since kakuzu is far more versatile and its likely that he has more chakra reserves and can possibly use the elemental techniques to a greater extent 

Im no hiruzen hater but honestly even though he got some major development,,, he is still not moving that much higher in the rankings 
Deidara >> Hiruzen  
Sasori >> Hiruzen 
Kakuzu > Hiruzen


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 23, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> he is still gna get stomped by Deidara and Sasori
> he doesnt have the sharingan to see that raiton is his C4 weakness
> and he also cannot effectively attack deidara since he lacks the proper long range technique
> Enma isnt doing shit,, if he can fly kilometres away and proceed to nuke him
> ...



Hiruzen could beat sasori fire/lightning/earth jutsus counter 100 puppets
Hiruzen can overwhelm sasori using multiple jutsus at once from several directions sasori would have to focus on defending himself instead of attacking then hiruzen could close in on sasori till he's so pressured on the defensive there's nothing he can do


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 23, 2014)

xxHKCDxx said:


> he is still gna get stomped by Deidara and Sasori
> he doesnt have the sharingan to see that raiton is his C4 weakness
> and he also cannot effectively attack deidara since he lacks the proper long range technique
> Enma isnt doing shit,, if he can fly kilometres away and proceed to nuke him



That's not going to happen. Hiruzen has long range and big AoE Ninjutsu that he can use against lMid-range fighters. Deidara does not simply go KILOMETERS away and spam, he hovers above his opponent. Enma can reach out that far. But I do think Deidara would beat him High-Diff with C4 as the game winner. 



> Sasori is also beating him quite easily,,, Hiruzen cannot evade all of the things that sasori throws at him and is bound to get poisoned,,,, so is his enma
> third kazekages iron sand is also troublesome for hiruzen and the 100 puppets wll end him for sure...



Yes he can, if Granny Chiyo was able to and overtime, so was Sakura then Hiruzen also can. Furthermore, he has Enma to protect him from the Iron Sand barrage and his strong elemental Jutsu to deal with the hundread Puppetts. What it comes down to is Satetsu Kaihō, if Hiruzen can block it somehow he would win, if he can't he would loose High-Diff. 



> he fares off much better against kakuzu but still i dnt see him winning,,, since kakuzu is far more versatile and its likely that he has more chakra reserves and can possibly use the elemental techniques to a greater extent



TBH we should be talking about Edo Hiruzen here, since old Hiruzen can't make 4 clones and then proceed to battle normally. Making 4 clones and summoning Enma would put him at his limit alone. Or at least Young/Prime Hiruzen. Either way, Kakazu, or Kakuzu if you prefer me call him that way, would also beat him High-Diff like the oth two, this is because of his huge chakra reserves and his Tendril form. 



> Im no hiruzen hater but honestly even though he got some major development,,, he is still not moving that much higher in the rankings
> Deidara >> Hiruzen
> Sasori >> Hiruzen
> Kakuzu > Hiruzen



I like Hiruzen, and he did get a major power boost, but it has to be taken into consideration for Prime Hiruzen or Edo Hiruzen, because old Hiruzen struggled so make a single clone. Also, Kakuzu is superior to Sasori and Deidara overall. 



xxHKCDxx said:


> Its KAKUZU not kakazu





Yes I'm fully aware of that but I always liked saying Kakazu better so I stuck withit, and no one seemed o mind.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 23, 2014)

I think he could beat any of the Kage bar Hashirama, Minato, Tobirama but thats Old Hiruzen in his prime he's close to their level.


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## Jad (Jan 23, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> I think he could beat any of the Kage bar Hashirama, Minato, Tobirama but thats Old Hiruzen in his prime he's close to their level.



Gotta disagree with you on that one, Ei for example dodges those elemental techniques. It's not like he can spam them.


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## Mithos (Jan 23, 2014)

Jad said:


> Gotta disagree with you on that one, Ei for example dodges those elemental techniques. It's not like he can spam them.



Those specific jutsu maybe. But with 5 elements and the jutsu repetoire and intelligence he has, he should be able to erect both a defense to blitz tactics as well as neutralize A's lightning shroud with fuuton jutsus.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 23, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> I think he could beat any of the Kage bar Hashirama, Minato, Tobirama but thats Old Hiruzen in his prime he's close to their level.



Mind telling me how he beats Mū? Or how about Ōnoki? Or A? Or Danzo? Or 2nd Mizukage?


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## Jak N Blak (Jan 23, 2014)

Jagger said:


> No, he can't.
> 
> He lacks the stamina and raw power to beat Base Hashirama.



One does not need Raw power to defeat Hashirama.

Its all about...timing...
Waiting...for the right opening...
To slap an explosive tag on his leg...after closing the distance...
By slapping all Mokuton aside with Enma by his side...
As well as 4 Kage Bunshins tagging along spanning Raiton and Fuuton cutting Jutsus...
Which prevent Mokuton from stopping the main body's march towards Hashirama...
Once the distance is closed...
The true fight begins...
Or should I say...
It ends...?


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Mind telling me how he beats Mū? Or how about Ōnoki? Or A? Or Danzo? Or 2nd Mizukage?


He could beat (or Draw) Troll Kage. I did a write up on it in this thread:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Sense of Smell to counter Clam's Mist. Raiton to counter Suika no Jutsu (so long as the Oil Suika no Jutsu doesn't change this weakness) and Dotons to counter other Suitions. Enma, KB, and Dotons to survive Joki Boi Explosions. Using some of the elements he might be able to disturb Joki' Boi's reformation process and counter it that way; if not than Hiruzen should be able to use Shiki Fuujin to seal Joki Boi &/or Mizukage; defeating the Mizukage in exchange for his life.


 

He could beat (or Draw) Ei. I did a really long write up on it in another thread:


*Spoiler*: __ 



1.  Ei starts out in Base or R1. Sasuke managed to tag him w/o issue in R1. Hiruzen is not going to have an issue landing such as massive Fuuton on a Base or R1 Raikage, which will dispel Raiton no Yoroi and than can be followed up w/ the usage of several other Elemental Jutsu to finish him. If Hiruzen needs defense from Ei while this is going on KB or Enma's Cage form will serve that purpose.

2. If for some reason that doesn't work and Ei starts using R2. Hiruzen can separate into 5 different individuals and use that to his advantage. Ei is not a sensor nor does he have any means of detecting attacks from his blind-spots. When he went up against Madara's Clones a distraction that caused him to turn his LOS away from one of his enemies and towards Tsunade allowed him to be tagged by an enemy that was otherwise slower than him. Hiruzen utilizing KB is more than capable of creating that distraction. Have a KB block his LOS w/ massive Katon as Jiraiya did to Pain, while another clone attacks him w/ Fuuton. Kick up dust w/ Fuuton or Doton blocking LOS, and than have another clone sniff out his location using a Fuuton. Strap some explosive Tags to a clone so when Ei attacks it, the tags can be remote detonated blowing up in Ei's face, than while he's distracted w/ the explosion blast him w/ a Fuuton, use clones to increase to AOE, if necessary to ensure the hit. Use Doton to tunnel underground (& don't tell me Hiruzen doesn't know the most basic Doton skill) or have a clone do it, and than attack Ei from beneath him and outside his LOS w/ a Fuuton. Have a KB wielding Enma charge Ei and than when Ei disperses the clone have Enma instantly change to cage form binding Ei, than nail him with elemental Jutsu. Throw a Shuriken w/ an explosive tag at Ei, then at the last second us Kage Bushin Shurinken no Jutsu to create ton of clones, so when Ei tries to dodge casually to the right as he did against Amaterasu he gets nailed by an explosive Shuriken; than while he's distracted with that have another Clone nail him w/ Fuuton. The possibilities are simply endless here when you have someone able to create so many clones that are capable of such incredibly versatility.

3. Than their is always the all out strike. The sheer AOE that Hiruzen and his 4 clones cover together w/ their elemental spam is much wider than even Buddha, Ei has never shown the ability to evade something like that covers such a great scope.

4. Shiki Fuujin's attack is also invisible so he Ei's speed is meaningless against that and that's at least a draw.




As for Mu (& Onoki):


*Spoiler*: __ 



Mu's invisibility would be tough, Hiruzen's sense of smell could work as a counter if it can track Invis Mu (Personally I tend to think it can't, but it's debatable) and Hiruzen could also try baiting Mu w/ Bushin and waiting for that moment to use a massive AOE Elemental Jutsu in the direction of the disperse Bushin. Ether way Mu's invisibility is tough and pretty much straight up OP almost everyone goes down to it or struggles heavily with it unless they have motion detection. 

If Hiruzen does get past Invis, than we'd have to consider whether the right combinations of elements can counterbalance or exploit a weakness in Jinton (For more on that see my thread were I talk about this possibility here:  ). If those options don't work than it would come down to whether the raw power of Hiruzen's Max Elemental Jutsu combo can overwhelm Mu's Jinton, something I do not have the answer to. But if were talking about Old Hiruzen here even if he can nullify the Jinton, it would be enough as he'd likely run out steam using Elemental Spam to clash w/ Jinton before Mu.

So I agree with you overall that Mu has much better odds to win this fight between superior stamina (probably) and Invis, though I don't consider Hiruzen's odds non existent.

Basically the same things as Mu apply to Onoki, except Onoki's Jinton can be even more powerful than Mu's, so if counter balance or weakness exploitation doesn't work Hiruzen chances are even worse against Jinton. Though he doesn't need to worry about Invis against Onoki, so I expect similar odds for victory as against Mu. 




Against Danzo:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Hiruzen's Katons can be used to counter Danzo's Fuutons. Enma could help protect Hiruzen from any ambush attacks after Danzo re-spawns from Izanagi w/ it's Cage form (so long as Enma is out at that point). Enma to counter Danzo's lower grade Mokuton. Hiruzen is suppose to be a master of Genjutsu according to the DB and we have seen that be helpful against Danzo's even when Izanagi'd, so that could aid him too. However having to fight an invincible enemy for 10min straight is really not a good match up for Old Hiruzen who even with his chakra being Part II Powerscaled and if he is as conservative as possible in his chakra usage relying on Katons to counter Fuutons, is highly unlikely to make it through the 10m time-frame and if he does he's highly unlikely to have the chakra left to do anything. Than there is Koto which is a complete game changer and w/ Danzo's ability to respawn right in-front of Hiruzen's face i'm not sure how he'd be able to handle that, unless he was both somehow aware of it and kept clones on the field at all times, but than that's even more demanding on his chakra supplies and he's even less likely to last the 10min. So his chances are almost non-existent here from what he's shown so far; Idk maybe if he could turtle behind Enma and Danzo could not break through the cage, but unlikely

So I agree w/ Danzo.
.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Jan 23, 2014)

Jad said:


> Gotta disagree with you on that one, Ei for example dodges those elemental techniques. It's not like he can spam them.



Depends on the distance if A is close he can dodge them if he's far away he's not dodging them


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 23, 2014)

I think he would give any shinobi a real good run for their money, but there are some like Nagato that has the right defense and offense to counter Hiruzen's style but even then Hiruzen if he knows about the 5sec cooldown could aim for it and hope to touch him to seal him with death god(which giving the situation could be a win, loss, or draw. If it was to protect the leaf village and he did that although at the cost of his life(never happens in battledome stipulations) then I would count that as a win.

For you average shinobi that has no special kekkei genkai or special heritage, he is the most powerful shinobi and the greatest genius of the manga. When it comes down to it, blood lines puts shinobis into the top-tiers; Hashirama-Senju, Tobirama-Senju, Naruto-Uzamaki, Itachi, Sasuke, Madara, Obito-Uchiha, Kimmimaro-(got to be honest...forgot his clans name)(Even though I listed Itachi inbetween these Shinobis it doesn't mean that he is in their tier in any way, i was just making a point about KGs).  And even average shinobis are propelled to jounin levels just because of their blood line limits.

Actually genius wise I would have to put Hiruzen just a little bit over Jinton users. Even though jinton fuses 3 elements which is an amazing feat of intellect and chakra control...but 5 elements are unheard of and the various combination attacks that he can use are insane and given his fighting style which is rather conservative which contributes to his intellect capabilities as well.

Kakuzu is pretty beast and might be able to get the better of Hiruzen...but imo Kakuzu is high tier and can give some top tiers a run for their money and even beat some outright due to the mechanics of his physical body and the hearts that he uses which unlike shadow clones, are separate entities(meaning that if Hiruzen dies his clones poof, while when Kakuzu dies his hearts are still moving and acting accordingly. Only chance Hiruzen has is sealing him of which Hiruzen could pull off, but will take time to gain intel of strings and hearts.

For those saying Sasori...Plz Sasori is top tier almost God-tier; Iron sand, poison, and a slew of puppets).


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jan 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> He could beat (or Draw) Troll Kage. I did a write up on it in this thread:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Pease show me a scan of this keen sense of smell, because if it was as simple as that I'm sure TrollKage would have been found in no time. And unless it is as fast as a sensors he would get decapitated by Mū. As for Ei in V2, Hiruzen would get blitzed easily, he does not have any better chance then a MS Sasuke at dodging him, in fact, his chances are far worse. If he even has time to make clones his original body would still be the one to be hit. Or Ei can simply blitz all the clones one by one and then hit the original.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jan 23, 2014)

ugh. saru;s vomit wasn't close to kakuzu's scale. take a minute to compare the size, and you'll see how average saru's scale is compared to even zabuzu's water dragon.


----------



## Dominus (Jan 23, 2014)

Jak N Blak said:


> One does not need Raw power to defeat Hashirama.
> 
> Its all about...timing...
> Waiting...for the right opening...
> ...



Bringer of Darkness + Wood Dragon GG.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 23, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Pease show me a scan of this keen sense of smell, because if it was as simple as that I'm sure TrollKage would have been found in no time.


[1]



> As for Ei in V2, Hiruzen would get blitzed easily, he does not have any better chance then a MS Sasuke at dodging him, in fact, his chances are far worse.


I don't think you read anything I said, as I clearly responded to this. Sasuke and Hiruzen are not the same Ninja nor do they have the same set of abilities.



> If he even has time to make clones his original body would still be the one to be hit. Or Ei can simply blitz all the clones one by one and then hit the original.


Ei starts in Base and than goes R1. He's not blitzing Hiruzen before he can create clones or summon Enma. If he tries to blitz all the clones, but Hiruzen's not going to sit their and do nothing.



Cthulhu-versailles said:


> ugh. saru;s vomit wasn't close to kakuzu's scale. take a minute to compare the size, and you'll see how average saru's scale is compared to even zabuzu's water dragon.


Okay I will

As for the strength of the Jutsu. The Elemental Jutsu have quite a large range and scope, if you look at how microscopic Hiruzen is in comparison:



As for whose Elemental attacks are larger:

- Kakuzu didn't have a Suiton

- Kakuzu's Doton was a completely different style of technique (no comparison possible)

- Hiruzen Raiton Technique was certainly larger than Kakuzu' Gian;  Kazuku's Gian blasts weren't even as large as Kakashi on impact [1] , while Hiruzen Raiton towers over him in size. Though Kakuzu's Gian could separate into multiple blasts and we don't know if Hiruzen's Raiton could do the same, but even w/ multiple blasts combined it would lucky to reach the same scale as Hiruzen's

- Kakuzu's Katon Zukkoku was ever so slightly larger than some of the Tree's in area that Kakuzu was fighting team Kakashi [1]. However this can be deceiving as many of the Trees in that area were actually quite small. If we later look at the size of Kakuzu Katon (Even w/ Fuuton enhancing it) it's not so much larger than Kakashi, that Kakashi looks like a microscopic speck in comparison to it [1] [2], as is the case w/ Hiruzen and his Elemental Jutsu. So I'd say at best Kakuzu's Katon Zukkoku and Futon Astugi are around the same size as the Jutsu Hiruzen used this chapter, if not smaller.

Finally when it comes to the power these elemental Jutsu are packing, i'm not trying to downplay Kakuzu or anything, but quite honestly Kakuzu would be lucky if his Elemental Jutsu were packing the same power as the elemental Jutsu casted by Hashirama's ultimate jutsu the Mokuton: Shin Sūsenju; it wasn't Sage Powered this time, but still you'd expect the Jutsu cast from something like that to be a shit ton stronger than those of your average shinobi.

So yeah I think i'm being more than fair here when I say that at best Kakuzu's Elemental Jutsu equal Hiruzen's which matched Sūsenju's in strength, but very likely could be inferior. And even if they are equal he is ultimately outgunned offensively as he has not Suiton and his Doton is not really the attack type. What's more it's very clear that Hiruzen can use a wide array of Jutsu in each element, while Kakuzu seems limited to just 1 per heart.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jan 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> [1]



Oh I see. This is close range, I highly doubt he would be able to sniff out Trolkage. 




> I don't think you read anything I said, as I clearly responded to this. Sasuke and Hiruzen are not the same Ninja nor do they have the same set of abilities.



Does not matter, if Sasuke with MS could not react to V2 then neither can Hiruzen as he has shown nothing that surpasses or even comes close to it. 




> Ei starts in Base and than goes R1. He's not blitzing Hiruzen before he can create clones or summon Enma. If he tries to blitz all the clones, but Hiruzen's not going to sit their and do nothing.



That's the point of blitzing, even if he tries he would not be able to do anything to counter it because Ei would be blitzing him. You either have an automatic sustained shield like Susanoo or Gaara's defence,you are fast enough to react to it and counter attack or are durable enough to tank and then follow up with a counter attack, or if said person has prep, set-up a trap before hand. Hiruzen has none of these qualities/privileges, he would get blitzed, period.  




> - Kakuzu's Doton was a completely different style of technique (no comparison possible)



However, its safe to say it is far more effective then the one Hiruzen used. Its almost always possible to compare via efficiency. Kakazu takes it in this aspect.  



> - Hiruzen Raiton Technique was certainly larger than Kakuzu' Gian;  Kazuku's Gian blasts weren't even as large as Kakashi on impact [1] , while Hiruzen Raiton towers over him in size. Though Kakuzu's Gian could separate into multiple blasts and we don't know if Hiruzen's Raiton could do the same, but even w/ multiple blasts combined it would lucky to reach the same scale as Hiruzen's



Larger? Maybe slightly. More potent? Certainly not, Gian has quiet the hype to back it up, and Kakashi had to counteract it with 2 Raikiris did he not? Hiruzens does not compare to that. Kakazu wins in this aspect as well. 



> - Kakuzu's Katon Zukkoku was ever so slightly larger than some of the Tree's in area that Kakuzu was fighting team Kakashi [1]. However this can be deceiving as many of the Trees in that area were actually quite small. If we later look at the size of Kakuzu Katon (Even w/ Fuuton enhancing it) it's not so much larger than Kakashi, that Kakashi looks like a microscopic speck in comparison to it [1] [2], as is the case w/ Hiruzen and his Elemental Jutsu. So I'd say at best Kakuzu's Katon Zukkoku and Futon Astugi are around the same size as the Jutsu Hiruzen used this chapter, if not smaller.



Kakazu's clearly has more AoE, as far as potency goes Kakazu's is better based on feats. Kakashis Suiton did not do a single thing to his attack. 

Kakazu wins in everything other then Suiton which he does not have. 



> Finally when it comes to the power these elemental Jutsu are packing, i'm not trying to downplay Kakuzu or anything, but quite honestly Kakuzu would be lucky if his Elemental Jutsu were packing the same power as the elemental Jutsu casted by Hashirama's ultimate jutsu the Mokuton: Shin Sūsenju; it wasn't Sage Powered this time, but still you'd expect the Jutsu cast from something like that to be a shit ton stronger than those of your average shinobi.



This is pure speculation. Gian and Domu are more potent then Hiruzens and his Katon is probably as well, at best we could say they are even. 



> So yeah I think i'm being more than fair here when I say that at best Kakuzu's Elemental Jutsu equal Hiruzen's which matched Sūsenju's in strength, but very likely could be inferior. And even if they are equal he is ultimately outgunned offensively as he has not Suiton and his Doton is not really the attack type. What's more it's very clear that Hiruzen can use a wide array of Jutsu in each element, while Kakuzu seems limited to just 1 per heart.



Wrong, Hiruzen has only shown more then 1 Jutsu ( only has 2 to be more precise) in 2 types of elements, the rest only have 1respectively.


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 23, 2014)

Itachi, Pain, Base Jiraiya, BD Kakashi, Galactus, Hashirama, Yolobito Swagchiha, Exodia the Forbidden One, Father and Hohenheim simultaneously, Superman Prime 1,000,000, and lastly, who is coincidentally the strongest, Batman with prep time.

I don't know what I was thinking with my earlier post. Hiruzen da best.:blindhiruzen


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Oh I see. This is close range, I highly doubt he would be able to sniff out Trolkage.


- TrollKage was in short-range when using the Clam
- Nothing indicates it's only a short-range ability.



> Does not matter, if Sasuke with MS could not react to V2 then neither can Hiruzen as he has shown nothing that surpasses or even comes close to it.


 - Sasuke actually did react to R2 and use Enton
- Unless Ei starts the match w/ R2 Shunshin and the match starts Short-Range, Hiruzen will have enough time to pull out Enma or KB. Even if those are the conditions Kuchiyose is an act of Space-Time so, Ei may still not be fast enough to stop Enma coming



> That's the point of blitzing, even if he tries he would not be able to do anything to counter it because Ei would be blitzing him. You either have an automatic sustained shield like Susanoo or Gaara's defence,you are fast enough to react to it and counter attack or are durable enough to tank and then follow up with a counter attack, or if said person has prep, set-up a trap before hand. Hiruzen has none of these qualities/privileges, he would get blitzed, period.


This is where your wrong. Ei could blitz one KB, but while he's doing that Hiruzen has time to use more Jutsu. Also Ei does have shield like Susano'o; Enma.



> However, its safe to say it is far more effective then the one Hiruzen used. Its almost always possible to compare via efficiency. Kakazu takes it in this aspect.


The effectiveness is going to depend on the scenario. Hiruzen's Doton is a massive AOE Blast; Kakuzu's is primarily for defense, so it's like comparing applies and oranges. However Hiruzen is implied to a vast array of Dotons, while Kakuzu only has 1, so ultimately Hiruzen is going to be the more proficient Doton user.



> Larger? Maybe slightly. More potent? Certainly not, Gian has quiet the hype to back it up, and Kakashi had to counteract it with 2 Raikiris did he not? Hiruzens does not compare to that. Kakazu wins in this aspect as well.


Slightly, are you kidding me. Hiruzen was a speck compared to his Raiton, while 2 of Kakuzu's Gian weren't even as large as Kakashi. Hiruzen's Raiton dwarfs Gian and in terms of hype it counteracted Buddha's Raiton, which is at least at much, if not more hype than Kakashi nullifying Gian w/ his Rarikiri.



> Kakazu's clearly has more AoE, as far as potency goes Kakazu's is better based on feats. Kakashis Suiton did not do a single thing to his attack.


So your just ignoring the very clear scale the author presented for Hiruzen's Jutsu and that scale being at least as big as Kakuzu's if not bigger. And Kakuzu's Katon did not block Kakashi's Suiton, Kakuzu's Katon + Fuuton combo did, and if you don't think Hiruzen's can do that your kidding yourself.



> This is pure speculation. Gian and Domu are more potent then Hiruzens and his Katon is probably as well, at best we could say they are even.


It's pure speculations that  God Buddha packing Hashirama Senju's chakra is suppose to be seen as having very powerful chakra/jutsu. Please spare me the BS.



> Wrong, Hiruzen has only shown more then 1 Jutsu ( only has 2 to be more precise) in 2 types of elements, the rest only have 1respectively.


Dude please understand something here. The fact that Hiruzen was able to pull out the same exact Jutsu as Buddha in every single element, means his elemental Jutsu pool is massive.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Jan 23, 2014)

He has elemental jutsu and clones but it's hard to really put him up there on just that. If that was all that was needed to stalemate mini Buddha then Kakuzu could of been doing it.

What interests me is how exactly he was stalemating mini Buddha. Apparently as per Onoki's words the gokage and shinobi alliance were using their biggest attacks and still losing the battle against mini buddha.

Whatever he's doing off panel to stalemate Buddha puts him on a tier beyond Kakuzu, but he doesn't have the actual feats to back up that tier.


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> He has elemental jutsu and clones but it's hard to really put him up there on just that. If that was all that was needed to stalemate mini Buddha then Kakuzu could of been doing it.
> 
> What interests me is how exactly he was stalemating mini Buddha. Apparently as per Onoki's words the gokage and shinobi alliance were using their biggest attacks and still losing the battle against mini buddha.
> 
> Whatever he's doing off panel to stalemate Buddha puts him on a tier beyond Kakuzu, but he doesn't have the actual feats to back up that tier.


Kakuzu couldn't have stalemated the Buddha's Elemental attack like Hiruzen though. Even assuming Kakuzu's Katon, Fuuton & Raiton were equivalent to the Buddha's in strength, which is giving a-lot of credit to Kakuzu, Kakuzu's Doton is not offensive and he has not Suiton. So Kakuzu would go into that exchange 2 Elements down and get smashed.

However I agree that what Hiruzen's shown so far is not enough to stalemate the Buddha, so i'm also curious to know how the hell Hiruzen is going to manage that beyond the Elemental nullification; unless Hiruzen just gets insta fodderized after that next chapter in which case lol Kishi.

Edit: Hopefully these coming chapters also answer how the hell Hiruzen held back the Kyuubi during the attack on Konoha (he had help, but still, what the hell).


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jan 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> - TrollKage was in short-range when using the Clam
> - Nothing indicates it's only a short-range ability.



Nothing indicates that its not..........its a common fact that the smelling ability gets weaker and weaker then further away the opponent is. 




> - Sasuke actually did react to R2 and use Enton
> - Unless Ei starts the match w/ R2 Shunshin and the match starts Short-Range, Hiruzen will have enough time to pull out Enma or KB. Even if those are the conditions Kuchiyose is an act of Space-Time so, Ei may still not be fast enough to stop Enma coming



He was not able to physically react. Like I said, Hiruzen does not have something like Susanoo to guard him at all times. 




> This is where your wrong. Ei could blitz one KB, but while he's doing that Hiruzen has time to use more Jutsu. Also Ei does have shield like Susano'o; Enma.



Except Hiruzen cannot make infinite clones..........Enma is not like Susanoo, not even close, Enma has his own reaction speed and nothing indicates that it is fast enough to not only react to Ei, but turn into something that could defend against his attack. 




> The effectiveness is going to depend on the scenario. Hiruzen's Doton is a massive AOE Blast; Kakuzu's is primarily for defense, so it's like comparing applies and oranges. However Hiruzen is implied to a vast array of Dotons, while Kakuzu only has 1, so ultimately Hiruzen is going to be the more proficient Doton user.



Hiruzen only has 2 Doton techniques. Domu is more potent then both of them, in other words, someone would chose Domu over what Hiruzen has shown because it would be more helpful. 




> Slightly, are you kidding me. Hiruzen was a speck compared to his Raiton, while 2 of Kakuzu's Gian weren't even as large as Kakashi. Hiruzen's Raiton dwarfs Gian and in terms of hype it counteracted Buddha's Raiton, which is at least at much, if not more hype than Kakashi nullifying Gian w/ his Rarikiri.



Your kidding right? If we got an arial view on Kakashi and Gian it would look the same. The Raiton that Hiruzen used was as thin as a person but the clash it had with the Budha's Raiton is what make it seem bigger. Budha's Raiton has nothing to compare to, you are speculating, while Gian actually does so as of now in terms of feats and hype Gian>Hiruzens Unkown Raiton attack. 




> So your just ignoring the very clear scale the author presented for Hiruzen's Jutsu and that scale being at least as big as Kakuzu's if not bigger. And Kakuzu's Katon did not block Kakashi's Suiton, Kakuzu's Katon + Fuuton combo did, and if you don't think Hiruzen's can do that your kidding yourself.



Its bigger then THIS ? Yeah right. 




> It's pure speculations that  God Buddha packing Hashirama Senju's chakra is suppose to be seen as having very powerful chakra/jutsu. Please spare me the BS.



its assumption, not denying its strong, but your basing your argument around an assumption. You actually need feats of it doing something to someone or something to actually compare it, otherwise we can only assume how powerful it is from the AoE, its actual potency remains a mystery. 



> Dude please understand something here. The fact that Hiruzen was able to pull out the same exact Jutsu as Buddha in every single element, means his elemental Jutsu pool is massive.



More speculation, I guess because Kakazu took different elemental hearts and mastered some high level Jutsu means he has a huge Jutsu pool as well..........yeah, you can't say something like that.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Jan 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> THIS
> 
> 
> I don't think you read anything I said, as I clearly responded to this. Sasuke and Hiruzen are not the same Ninja nor do they have the same set of abilities.
> ...



the thing about using red ink to compare size of jutsu is that you need to do it for both characters to not reach a bias conclusion...

in any case, 

scan you posted=/ sarutobi is what you're using to compare to beam. the height bit  is, lets say 10-15 times his height. the width is less clear from the angle, but certainly not greater than the height.

kakuzu fuuton = tree height + 4-5 trees wide and all the space in between


katon is close enough to that^

point is...kakuzu and hidan next to the trees is our  point of reference, which makes it rather clear just how much bigger they are [2] saying some trees are smaller may be true, but the difference isn't much. it ain't  enough that the width of saru's beam become remotely comparable.

take red to and pixel scale it when ya got a free moment if you wish, and  you'll see just how  right i am. 

-====
kakuzu lighting> saru by feats because it blocked the sharpest lightin in the manga besides raikage father's. saru is untested/unknown
domu stated as unbreakable defense hype + actual feats> earth wall that blocked earth wall and suiton in part 1...

kakuzu burns down forest whereas sarutobi is standard kage level. 



and holding back the budda..
yamato is more than likely the mask guy controlling it, and it's ludicrously apparent this one isn't remotely comparable to harashima's  skyscraper incarnation. seriously. as of now, budda's hype is basically holding off exhausted no more chakra kages, and fodder alliance members. not bad hype, but gai and kakashi holding off transformed bjuun off panel is right up there...

stuff about the old man having more variants is pure speculation until we see some hard proof.  kakashi supposedly has 1000+ jutsu, but we'll never see them so it's irrelevant to the fight (but that's more kc standard, which might be different in battledome...).


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## Turrin (Jan 23, 2014)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> the thing about using red ink to compare size of jutsu is that you need to do it for both characters to not reach a bias conclusion...
> 
> in any case,
> 
> ...


The problem is your underestimating just how small some of the trees in that forest are. Here is the panel right after Fuuton Atsugi is used:
[2]

Now look at those trees suddenly they are barely 3 times the size of Choji and Shikkamaru at best. Than another time we see these much smaller trees can be seen in this panel, where the tree's are maybe x3 Kakashi size at best:
[2]

There are quite a number of examples of this. Basically it seems as if their are some really massive trees, but than also some very tiny trees in comparison. So it's tough to scale things based on trees in that area. What we can scale it on is based on Kakashi's size though and here is a very clear indicator of the scale of Kazuku's Katon (even when enhanced by Fuuton):
[2]

It's much bigger than Kakashi, but Kakashi is no spec in comparison to it and it isn't covering nearly half the width of the massive Buddha, as is the case w/ Hiruzen's Katon.



> yamato is more than likely the mask guy controlling it, and it's ludicrously apparent this one isn't remotely comparable to harashima's skyscraper incarnation. seriously. as of now, budda's hype is basically holding off exhausted no more chakra kages, and fodder alliance members. not bad hype, but gai and kakashi holding off transformed bjuun off panel is right up there...


I'm sorry, but the Buddha is absolutely massive and is one of Hashirama's strongest Jutsu. It's not the sky scraper Senjutsu one, but  if that were the case than Hiruzen jutsu would be one of the strongest  around, not simply >= Kakuzu, if he countered that Buddha's Elemental Jutsu. And regardless of who is using it the Buddha is still was create by a massive amount of Senju Hashirama chakra, which in terms of quality and quantity (even if this is a Yamato + Zetsu combo) > Kakuzu's by far. So I think it's more than fair to say that Hiruzen's Jutsu could counterbalance Kakuzu's if they could counterbalance the Buddha's, I really do.



> stuff about the old man having more variants is pure speculation until we see some hard proof. kakashi supposedly has 1000+ jutsu, but we'll never see them so it's irrelevant to the fight (but that's more kc standard, which might be different in battledome...)


For the KC that is indeed true. For the BD, I think we have more than enough telling us Hiruzen can use quite a few nature alteration Jutsu, that it is prudent to mention this as distinction between Hiruzen's and Kakuzu's abilities w/ each element. And i think a-lot of the difference here is that your looking at things from a KC perspective and i'm more looking at them from a manga perspective, I.E. what does Kishimoto want us to take away from this 

For the rest of your post, I basically answered the other points in my response to Monarch bellow.


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## Turrin (Jan 24, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Nothing indicates that its not..........its a common fact that the smelling ability gets weaker and weaker then further away the opponent is.


Sure, but these are ninja that enhance their senses to insane extents w/ chakra. We've seen Inuzuka clan members detect someone from miles away through this principle. I'm not saying Hiruzen can do something that ridiculous (though it would not be surprising Kakashi sense of smell was compared to Kibas and he doesn't even have as good of a feat as Hiruzen), just that he doesn't have to be at point blank range to detect someone. Combine this with the fact that Mizukage and the Clam do not hide incredibly far away from the enemy and it makes sense that Hiruzen could detect the Clam this way.



> He was not able to physically react. Like I said, Hiruzen does not have something like Susanoo to guard him at all times.


He did physical react he turned around. He just could not evade in time and I don't think Hiruzen would be able to evade ether; however could he use a Jutsu, especially an S-T Jutsu like Kuchiyose in time, very possible.



> Except Hiruzen cannot make infinite clones..........


He doesn't need infinite clones. All he needs to be able to do is make a clones when he needs to evade a blitz & create an opening to cast other Jutsu.



> Enma is not like Susanoo, not even close, Enma has his own reaction speed and nothing indicates that it is fast enough to not only react to Ei, but turn into something that could defend against his attack.


Enma can change between staff and cage forms, nigh instantly through the art of transformation:
[2]

Enma is staff form is called the Kongou Bou in the manga. On the translation of Kongou Bou:

_"Bou" simply means "staff". "Kongou" translates as "adamantine", "diamond", but is also a reference to "Vajra", Indra's indestructible weapon."_

Indestructible hype aside, Ei is not busting through admantine or diamond.



> Hiruzen only has 2 Doton techniques. Domu is more potent then both of them, in other words, someone would chose Domu over what Hiruzen has shown because it would be more helpful.


I would not take Domu over Hiruzen's Dotons. The Doton Hiruzen displayed this chapter is at least as good as Domu, except it's offense oriented, while Domu is defense orient. Between those 2 I whose Doton I'd take would totally depend on the situation. However than Hiruzen also has defensive Doton wall on-top of it, which makes Hiruzen Doton's more versatile than Kakuzu's single Doton, and I would therefore take Hiruzen's overall.

Beyond that the manga makes it very clear that Hiruzen has other Dotons besides the two he's shown, which makes Hiruzen much better than Kakuzu in Doton.



> Your kidding right? If we got an arial view on Kakashi and Gian it would look the same. The Raiton that Hiruzen used was as thin as a person but the clash it had with the Budha's Raiton is what make it seem bigger.


I'm sorry, but this is BS, plain and simple. Kishi very clearly shows use Gian is not even as big as Kakashi and Hiruzen's Raiton dwarfs him. Changing the vantage point is not going to alter that simple truth.



> Budha's Raiton has nothing to compare to, you are speculating, while Gian actually does so as of now in terms of feats and hype Gian>Hiruzens Unkown Raiton attack.


This is quite the double standard your applying here. On one hand your saying we can't quantify the power of Buddha's elemental Jutsu, than go on to say Gian's feats are better than Hiruzen's Raiton. If your arguing we don't know the strength of Buddha's Jutsu, the best you could argue is we don't know whose feat is better; Hiruzen counterbalancing Buddha's Jutsu or Gian counterbalancing Kakashi's Rarikiri. This is because if we don't know the strength of Buddha's Jutsu it could be way stronger than Rarikiri, thus making Hiruzen's feat much better than Kakuzu's. 

So bottom line is both of us are speculating. You are speculating that Kakuzu's feat is better, based on what the manga has told us about Rarikiri and i'm speculating that Hiruzen's feat is better based on what the manga has told us about Buddha-Hashirama. 

As for hype, in no universe is counterbalancing one of Kakashi's Jutsu, more hype than counterbalancing a Jutsu used by Hashirama God Buddha Statue.



> Its bigger then THIS ? Yeah right.


It's at least as big if not bigger. Kishimoto very clearly gives us the scale of Kakuzu's Katon (even when enhanced by Fuuton) not being so much larger than Kakashi, that he is speck in comparison, as is the case w/ Hiruzen's (& Buddha's Jutsu). Another thing you can also look at for perspective is that the Katon alone covers nearly half the width of the Massive Buddha's body, which would also indicate it is of the same scale or larger than Kakuzu.



> its assumption, not denying its strong, but your basing your argument around an assumption. You actually need feats of it doing something to someone or something to actually compare it, otherwise we can only assume how powerful it is from the AoE, its actual potency remains a mystery.


The BD is all about assumptions. That's basically all we do here is make educated assumptions of how we think Kishimoto would have events play out based on what we've been told in the manga cannon. Given the scale of the elemental Jutsu the Buddha used and the incredible hype surrounding the Buddha Jutsu as well as Hashirama's chakra powering it, I feel the most educated and fair assumption here is that Kakuzu would be lucky if his elemental Jutsu packed as much punch as the Buddha's, and i'm going almost out of my to rate Kakuzu at the highest possible degree of power his elemental Jutsu can be at when i'm saying they too could counterbalance the Buddha's like Hiruzens.



> More speculation, I guess because Kakazu took different elemental hearts and mastered some high level Jutsu means he has a huge Jutsu pool as well..........yeah, you can't say something like that.


What are you talking about Kakuzu's took hearts from people and showed 1 specific Jutsu he could use w/ each heart; nothing more, nothing less. Hiruzen did not steal any hearts, he is just literally that skilled w/ all 5 Nature alterations and has shown the ability to utilize more than one Jutsu his nature alterations. Additionally the fact that Hiruzen could pull out the same 5 elemental Jutsu as the Buddha, means his pool of elemental Jutsu needs to be massive; I mean what do you think the only Fuuton, Raiton, and Suiton Hiruzen mastered just happened to be the ones used by the Buddha and out of the only 2 Dotons & Katons Hiruzen mastered 1 just so happened to be the Buddha's. The probability of something like and happening for all 5 elements is so astronomically low it's not even worth discussing. What's more Hiruzen's being stated to have mastered thousands of different jutsu and hyped to know all Jutsu in the leaf village also supports the fact that he'd have more Jutsu than a single one; in the case of Katon this is even more likely to be the case as he comes from the Sarutobi clan known for their Katons, so him only having 2 is even more unfathomable.


----------



## Jad (Jan 24, 2014)

I guess Konan / Chiyo / Mei level maybe.


----------



## Mercurial (Jan 24, 2014)

Kakuzu fodders old Hiruzen. Remember that this isn't old Hiruzen, but old Edo Hiruzen.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jan 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The problem is your underestimating just how small some of the trees in that forest are. Here is the panel right after Fuuton Atsugi is used:
> He actually can.
> 
> Now look at those trees suddenly they are barely 3 times the size of Choji and Shikkamaru at best. Than another time we see these much smaller trees can be seen in this panel, where the tree's are maybe x3 Kakashi size at best:
> ...



lol no. Its called an angle, the trees are still clearly a lot bigger then them, but the angle makes it seem like they are not. I can't believe your not even taking angles into account dude. By your logic, I am only 2 or 3 times smaller then my house because the angle of which the picture is taken makes me seem that way. 



Turrin said:


> Sure, but these are ninja that enhance their senses to insane extents w/ chakra. We've seen Inuzuka clan members detect someone from miles away through this principle. I'm not saying Hiruzen can do something that ridiculous (though it would not be surprising Kakashi sense of smell was compared to Kibas and he doesn't even have as good of a feat as Hiruzen), just that he doesn't have to be at point blank range to detect someone. Combine this with the fact that Mizukage and the Clam do not hide incredibly far away from the enemy and it makes sense that Hiruzen could detect the Clam this way.



Ok fair enough 




> He did physical react he turned around. He just could not evade in time and I don't think Hiruzen would be able to evade ether; however could he use a Jutsu, especially an S-T Jutsu like Kuchiyose in time, very possible.



No he turned around after Ei Shunshined behind him. How would Kuchiyose help? Enma has his own reaction time because he himself is a living being, Enma would not be Able to react either. 



> He doesn't need infinite clones. All he needs to be able to do is make a clones when he needs to evade a blitz & create an opening to cast other Jutsu.



He won't get the time, and if he does, Ei dodges it. 



> Enma can change between staff and cage forms, nigh instantly through the art of transformation:
> He actually can.
> 
> Enma is staff form is called the Kongou Bou in the manga. On the translation of Kongou Bou:
> ...



And what's Hiruzen going to do stay in there? The second he gets out he's dead. 




> I would not take Domu over Hiruzen's Dotons. The Doton Hiruzen displayed this chapter is at least as good as Domu, except it's offense oriented, while Domu is defense orient. Between those 2 I whose Doton I'd take would totally depend on the situation. However than Hiruzen also has defensive Doton wall on-top of it, which makes Hiruzen Doton's more versatile than Kakuzu's single Doton, and I would therefore take Hiruzen's overall.



No, the Doton he displayed in the latest chapter is a basic offensive Doton attack, while Domu is top class defensive attack. The Doton wall is fodder, in a fight it would not make a difference in the battle. Domu is more useful then both of those combined.   



> Beyond that the manga makes it very clear that Hiruzen has other Dotons besides the two he's shown, which makes Hiruzen much better than Kakuzu in Doton.



He does not have other Doton until he shows them. Do you not know what speculation means? This is ridiculous, your making some of the biggest speculations I have ever seen and basing your argument around them. Kakashi has said to have 1000 Jutsu yet do people use all those Jutsu in arguments? NO.  




> I'm sorry, but this is BS, plain and simple. Kishi very clearly shows use Gian is not even as big as Kakashi and Hiruzen's Raiton dwarfs him. Changing the vantage point is not going to alter that simple truth.



No, the angle will. You seem to think otherwise which is beyond me. Hiruzens is only as slim as a person but its clash makes it seem bigger. 




> This is quite the double standard your applying here. On one hand your saying we can't quantify the power of Buddha's elemental Jutsu, than go on to say Gian's feats are better than Hiruzen's Raiton. If your arguing we don't know the strength of Buddha's Jutsu, the best you could argue is we don't know whose feat is better; Hiruzen counterbalancing Buddha's Jutsu or Gian counterbalancing Kakashi's Rarikiri. This is because if we don't know the strength of Buddha's Jutsu it could be way stronger than Rarikiri, thus making Hiruzen's feat much better than Kakuzu's.



*Wrong, being counter balanced by two Raikiris is a feat in itself because Raikiri actually has feats*. Furthermore he have hype that is backed up by the feat to an extent. Hiruzens Raiton attack is featless, and so is the Budha's. they have had no other use then counting each other. 



> So bottom line is both of us are speculating. You are speculating that Kakuzu's feat is better, based on what the manga has told us about Rarikiri and i'm speculating that Hiruzen's feat is better based on what the manga has told us about Buddha-Hashirama.



No I'm not speculating, I am using facts. You are speculating, and the manga has not told us anything about how well the Budha can use Ninjutsu. 



> As for hype, in no universe is counterbalancing one of Kakashi's Jutsu, more hype than counterbalancing a Jutsu used by Hashirama God Buddha Statue.



Did you take into account that Swirly's Budha is at least 50 times smaller? Did you take into account that Raikiri is one of Kakashi strongest attacks? Yeah, Gian as both better feats and better hype. 




> It's at least as big if not bigger. Kishimoto very clearly gives us the scale of Kakuzu's Katon (even when enhanced by Fuuton) not being so much larger than Kakashi, that he is speck in comparison, as is the case w/ Hiruzen's (& Buddha's Jutsu). Another thing you can also look at for perspective is that the Katon alone covers nearly half the width of the Massive Buddha's body, which would also indicate it is of the same scale or larger than Kakuzu.



No it is clearly smaller but at this point I can't say anything because you will simply deny it, waste of time. 



> The BD is all about assumptions. That's basically all we do here is make educated assumptions of how we think Kishimoto would have events play out based on what we've been told in the manga cannon. Given the scale of the elemental Jutsu the Buddha used and the incredible hype surrounding the Buddha Jutsu as well as Hashirama's chakra powering it, I feel the most educated and fair assumption here is that Kakuzu would be lucky if his elemental Jutsu packed as much punch as the Buddha's, and i'm going almost out of my to rate Kakuzu at the highest possible degree of power his elemental Jutsu can be at when i'm saying they too could counterbalance the Buddha's like Hiruzens.



Incredible hype? Show me where this incredible hype if Ninjutsu comes from, your just BSing. Kakazus attacks are larger and more potent then Hiruzens, its as simple as that. 




> What are you talking about Kakuzu's took hearts from people and showed 1 specific Jutsu he could use w/ each heart; nothing more, nothing less. Hiruzen did not steal any hearts, he is just literally that skilled w/ all 5 Nature alterations and has shown the ability to utilize more than one Jutsu his nature alterations. Additionally the fact that Hiruzen could pull out the same 5 elemental Jutsu as the Buddha, means his pool of elemental Jutsu needs to be massive; I mean what do you think the only Fuuton, Raiton, and Suiton Hiruzen mastered just happened to be the ones used by the Buddha and out of the only 2 Dotons & Katons Hiruzen mastered 1 just so happened to be the Buddha's. The probability of something like and happening for all 5 elements is so astronomically low it's not even worth discussing. What's more Hiruzen's being stated to have mastered thousands of different jutsu and hyped to know all Jutsu in the leaf village also supports the fact that he'd have more Jutsu than a single one; in the case of Katon this is even more likely to be the case as he comes from the Sarutobi clan known for their Katons, so him only having 2 is even more unfathomable.



Does not matter, Kakazu should be able to use any of elemental Jutsu that falls under his categories of elements because he had enough mastery to master high class Ninjutsu. Bottom line, stop speculating and assuming.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 24, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kakuzu fodders old Hiruzen. Remember that this isn't old Hiruzen, but old Edo Hiruzen.



Well, the edo Hokage are brought back with less than their full power. 

Also, I did not say "the strongest the character whom OLD Hiruzen can defeat!"

I only wanted to know the strongest character whom Hiruzen can defeat. You can give him the
benefit of doubt about how much chakra does he have while in his prime. Sinve Oro stated if he were younger, he would have been able to defeat him.


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## Turrin (Jan 24, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> lol no. Its called an angle, the trees are still clearly a lot bigger then them, but the angle makes it seem like they are not. I can't believe your not even taking angles into account dude. By your logic, I am only 2 or 3 times smaller then my house because the angle of which the picture is taken makes me seem that way.


Dude what angle, it was a straight on picture. If someone took a straight on picture of you standing in-front of your house, you are not going to look like a giant whose only 2-3 times smaller than your house, unless you live in a hovel 

Plus their are many instance that show their are extremely small trees and much large trees. Take this panel for example Kakashi jumping is almost at the same heigh as the smaller trees he's next to, but the bigger tree in-front of him still dwarfs him and the entire elemental exchange going on:
still flaming

And I'd argue that Larger Tree is still smaller than the ones cthuelu give me for scale originally.

Additionally if you go look at the area where Shikkamaru blows up Hidan all of those trees are much smaller as well:
Link removed
Link removed

And again I don't understand why people insist of on ignoring the panel which blatantly shows that the Katon (even when enhanced by the Fuuton) is both not even close to as large as the taller trees and w/ Kakashi their we can see a very accurate scale:
Link removed

Again the trees can be deceiving so why aren't we measuring on something we know the size of (Kakashi)?



> No he turned around after Ei Shunshined behind him. How would Kuchiyose help? Enma has his own reaction time because he himself is a living being, Enma would not be Able to react either.


Enma's transformation happens nigh instantly, even Sasuke had enough time to physical move, so why would Enma not have time to transform, which requires no motion or anything.



> He won't get the time, and if he does, Ei dodges it.


Wouldn't get the time why? Ei has never shown the speed where he can blitz one person, realize it's a KB, and than blitz the real user, before the user could cast a single Jutsu. Even against Minato when he was the most aggressive we've seen him and he was at point blank range, Ei gave Minato more than enough time before his initial blitz to cast Jutsu and more than enough time to cast more Jutsu before his successive blitz. 

Saying Ei dodges it is all fine an dandy in some situations, but not in all situations. In my original post I very clearly described how Hiruzen could hit Ei.



> And what's Hiruzen going to do stay in there? The second he gets out he's dead.


He could if he wanted to and just cast Jutsu through the openings in the cage or create KB to fight outside the cage. Or he could use the cage as chance to block LOS and than slip away from Ei into longer range or underground. Their are many options.



> No, the Doton he displayed in the latest chapter is a basic offensive Doton attack, while Domu is top class defensive attack. The Doton wall is fodder, in a fight it would not make a difference in the battle. Domu is more useful then both of those combined.


There is nothing basic about the scale and the fact that it counterbalanced Buddha's Doton. So let's stop w/ that intellectually dishonest BS. Domu is not the best defensive Doton we've seen, but it's quite good, Hiruzen's isn't the best offensive Doton we've seen, but it is also quite good. Again I think it could go ether way.

Hiruzen's Doton wall is hardly fodder, it's one of the large Doton Walls we've seen produced and he did so w/o using a Earth source, with using the earth around him Hiruzen would be able to make it much bigger.



> He does not have other Doton until he shows them. Do you not know what speculation means? This is ridiculous, your making some of the biggest speculations I have ever seen and basing your argument around them. Kakashi has said to have 1000 Jutsu yet do people use all those Jutsu in arguments? NO


Number one it's hardly speculation when you consider how absurd it would be to expect Hiruzen to have only mastered 2 Doton, and out of those 2, 1 of them just so happened to be the Buddha's. The odds of that are astronomically low. 

And yes people do use those Jutsu in an argument when comparing Kakashi's Ninjutsu skill w/ another Shinobi, as having 1,000 Jutsu is an amazing feat as far as that's concerned. Here we are comparing Kakuzu's Doton ability to Hiruzen Doton abilities, which is why I bring it up. 



> No, the angle will. You seem to think otherwise which is beyond me. Hiruzens is only as slim as a person but its clash makes it seem bigger.


Please look at the panel w/ Kakashi next to Katon + Fuuton combo.



> Wrong, being counter balanced by two Raikiris is a feat in itself because Raikiri actually has feats. Furthermore he have hype that is backed up by the feat to an extent. Hiruzens Raiton attack is featless, and so is the Budha's. they have had no other use then counting each other.


No dude, both are feats. Just because we have a more tangible sense of how strong Rarikiri than Buddha's Raiton, does not make Hiruzen blocking Buddha's Raiton any less of a feat. And again in no universe is Kakuzu/Rarikiri hype even close to God Buddha wielding Hashirama chakra.



> No I'm not speculating, I am using facts. You are speculating, and the manga has not told us anything about how well the Budha can use Ninjutsu.


If you are saying Gian is better than the Buddha's Raiton, yes you are speculating. I mean right in this post you say, the manga hasn't told us how strong the Buddha's Jutsu is precisely, so how do you know Gian is better than it?



> Did you take into account that Swirly's Budha is at least 50 times smaller? Did you take into account that Raikiri is one of Kakashi strongest attacks? Yeah, Gian as both better feats and better hyp


Did you take into account it's still massive as hell and still one of Hashirama's best Jutsu? Did you take in account that Kakashi is nothing compared to Hashirama and so are his Jutsu? Anyone saying blocking an attack from Buddha is less hype than blocking Rarikiri is being dishonest.



> No it is clearly smaller but at this point I can't say anything because you will simply deny it, waste of time.


I'm not denying it, the manga is. Again I gave you a picture that clearly shows the scale of Kakashi next to the Katon + Fuuton combo, and you keep ignoring it.



> Incredible hype? Show me where this incredible hype if Ninjutsu comes from, your just BSing. Kakazus attacks are larger and more potent then Hiruzens, its as simple as that.


If I need to explain why Hashirama's Buddha Jutsu or Hashirama's Chakra has extreme hype, you need to re-read the manga. 



> Does not matter, Kakazu should be able to use any of elemental Jutsu that falls under his categories of elements because he had enough mastery to master high class Ninjutsu. Bottom line, stop speculating and assuming.


Kakuzu has never shown the ability to use more than one and due to the fact that his powers are stolen and not actually his skill in Nature Alteration, his situation is different than Hiruzen's who actually is that skilled in nature alteration and we have a reason to believe that he may only be capable of one. With Hiruzen we know he's capable of more than one and have a shit ton of reasons to believe he has a wide variety of nature alteration techniques within each element. I also love how you dodge around the answering whether you believe the one (or two in some cases) technique in each element just so happened to be the Buddha's, 5 times in a row, and how improbable that is. In-fact you didn't address anything I posted.

And if we stop speculating, there is no reason to discuss anything in the BD as it's all speculation based on what we've seen & been told in the manga cannon.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jan 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Dude what angle, it was a straight on picture. If someone took a straight on picture of you standing in-front of your house, you are not going to look like a giant whose only 2-3 times smaller than your house, unless you live in a hovel



No, if I was standing in between two average houses and they took a picture from that angle I Would look huge compared to them. 



> Plus their are many instance that show their are extremely small trees and much large trees. Take this panel for example Kakashi jumping is almost at the same heigh as the smaller trees he's next to, but the bigger tree in-front of him still dwarfs him and the entire elemental exchange going on:
> Link removed



He's dwarfed by the tree in that panel. 



> Additionally if you go look at the area where Shikkamaru blows up Hidan all of those trees are much smaller as well:
> Link removed
> Link removed



Those are normal trees, they are not in the same location. 



> And again I don't understand why people insist of on ignoring the panel which blatantly shows that the Katon (even when enhanced by the Fuuton) is both not even close to as large as the taller trees and w/ Kakashi their we can see a very accurate scale:
> Link removed



That's not the same Katon I showed you, the one against in this link is more potent then the regular Katon, but has a smaller AoE. 




> Enma's transformation happens nigh instantly, even Sasuke had enough time to physical move, so why would Enma not have time to transform, which requires no motion or anything.



Sasuke was not able to physically move. And Why Are you under the impression that Enma will instantly spawn knowing what to do...........he will spawn in his regular monkey form have not a single clue of what's going on on the battlefield. 




> Wouldn't get the time why? Ei has never shown the speed where he can blitz one person, realize it's a KB, and than blitz the real user, before the user could cast a single Jutsu. Even against Minato when he was the most aggressive we've seen him and he was at point blank range, Ei gave Minato more than enough time before his initial blitz to cast Jutsu and more than enough time to cast more Jutsu before his successive blitz.



Realize? Why does he have to realize? He will see that Hiruzen is making KB. When Ei went V2 and charged Minato had a split second to GTFO. Minato has far better reflexes then Hiruzen. 



> Saying Ei dodges it is all fine an dandy in some situations, but not in all situations. In my original post I very clearly described how Hiruzen could hit Ei.



No he can dodge them, especially from close range. 



> He could if he wanted to and just cast Jutsu through the openings in the cage or create KB to fight outside the cage. Or he could use the cage as chance to block LOS and than slip away from Ei into longer range or underground. Their are many options.



And eventually runs out of chakra...........Or why don't Ei just pick up the cage...........




> There is nothing basic about the scale and the fact that it counterbalanced Buddha's Doton. So let's stop w/ that intellectually dishonest BS. Domu is not the best defensive Doton we've seen, but it's quite good, Hiruzen's isn't the best offensive Doton we've seen, but it is also quite good. Again I think it could go ether way.



And what feats does Budha's Doton have? If you cannot show me a feat, or even a statement that indicates how powerfully he Budha's Doton is *THEN YOU ARE SPECULATING*. Domu IS the best Doton defence we have seen, unless you want to show me a better one. 



> Hiruzen's Doton wall is hardly fodder, it's one of the large Doton Walls we've seen produced and he did so w/o using a Earth source, with using the earth around him Hiruzen would be able to make it much bigger.



It was an average Doton wall, nothing special shown about it. It blocked some Suiton as it is supposed to but got easily pierced by a 5% Hashirama Mokouton.  




> Number one it's hardly speculation when you consider how absurd it would be to expect Hiruzen to have only mastered 2 Doton, and out of those 2, 1 of them just so happened to be the Buddha's. The odds of that are astronomically low.



I could just as easily say Kakazu has more then one Doton. 



> And yes people do use those Jutsu in an argument when comparing Kakashi's Ninjutsu skill w/ another Shinobi, as having 1,000 Jutsu is an amazing feat as far as that's concerned. Here we are comparing Kakuzu's Doton ability to Hiruzen Doton abilities, which is why I bring it up.



Your saying Hiruzens Doton is better, but its not. Nothing he has shown is better then something like Domu. 





> No dude, both are feats. Just because we have a more tangible sense of how strong Rarikiri than Buddha's Raiton, does not make Hiruzen blocking Buddha's Raiton any less of a feat. And again in no universe is Kakuzu/Rarikiri hype even close to God Buddha wielding Hashirama chakra.



Really? Then I ask you again, where does it say that the Budha's Ninjutsu is amazing? Where does it say anything about his Ninjutsu? Your are speculating, plain and simple. Budha's Raiton has ZERO feats. Raikiri has plenty, so the fact that Gian forced Kakashi to use 2 Raikiri means that Gian is as wear full as 2 Raikiri and could do anything Raikiri has done so far x2 more powerful. 



> If you are saying Gian is better than the Buddha's Raiton, yes you are speculating. I mean right in this post you say, the manga hasn't told us how strong the Buddha's Jutsu is precisely, so how do you know Gian is better than it?



No I'm not speculating you hypocrite, you have been speculating this whole time. Saying Gian is better then the Budha's Raiton *IS A FACT* until the Budha's Feats show otherwise. 




> Did you take into account it's still massive as hell and still one of Hashirama's best Jutsu? Did you take in account that Kakashi is nothing compared to Hashirama and so are his Jutsu? Anyone saying blocking an attack from Buddha is less hype than blocking Rarikiri is being dishonest.



Did you take into account that Swirlys Budha is over 50 times smaller then Hashiramas Budha?
Did you take into account that Raiton is Kakashi more proficient affinity, while Hashirama does not have Raiton to train with? 
Your being biased and a fanboy right now, make speculations for your claims that I have never even dreamed of someone using. Drop the speculation and assumptions and start using real feats and this argument would not have lasted more then 4 posts. Your specs are wasting my time, by feats, Kakazu's Raiton>Hiruzens and by feats Kakazus Doton>Hiruzens. Katon is about to the same to be generous even if its AoE is much larger. 




> I'm not denying it, the manga is. Again I gave you a picture that clearly shows the scale of Kakashi next to the Katon + Fuuton combo, and you keep ignoring it.



We are not talking about the combo here, we are talking about the regular Katon. THIS  is clearly larger then that of Hiruzens. I could call everyone on this forum here and they will say the same, your fanboyism is blinding you. 




> If I need to explain why Hashirama's Buddha Jutsu or Hashirama's Chakra has extreme hype, you need to re-read the manga.



Go ahead and explain and show where the Budha's hype for Ninjutsu is. I'm waiting. 




> Kakuzu has never shown the ability to use more than one and due to the fact that his powers are stolen and not actually his skill in Nature Alteration, his situation is different than Hiruzen's who actually is that skilled in nature alteration and we have a reason to believe that he may only be capable of one. With Hiruzen we know he's capable of more than one and have a shit ton of reasons to believe he has a wide variety of nature alteration techniques within each element. I also love how you dodge around the answering whether you believe the one (or two in some cases) technique in each element just so happened to be the Buddha's, 5 times in a row, and how improbable that is. In-fact you didn't address anything I posted.



They are his skill, he trained with them, and has lived longer then Hiruzen has. I'm not dodging anything, I'm simply not making assumptions like you. I have had a lot of patience with your speculations but seeing as how you cannot make a single argument without using them my patience is growing thin. 



> And if we stop speculating, there is no reason to discuss anything in the BD as it's all speculation based on what we've seen & been told in the manga cannon.



Kishi himself made the Databook, of course many things in it contradict themselves but its second to Manga feats nevertheless and can be used to support a fact, which I am doing.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 24, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> No, if I was standing in between two average houses and they took a picture from that angle I Would look huge compared to them.
> .


No you wouldn't. You'd have to be standing a great amount of distance in-front of the two houses. If you were standing side by side w/ the house or even slightly in-front you would not look huge compared to them.



> He's dwarfed by the tree in that panel.


Not the one he is next to. The one in-front of him dwarfs him, your right about that, but it also dwarfs the entire elemental exchange and even the dust cloud kicked up by it.



> Those are normal trees, they are not in the same location.


They are in the same general vicinity, within the same forest. It's just that within a forest the sizes of trees differ drastically. I can literally walk three feat outside my grandparents house and the trees are probably 10-20x my size, than I walk another 3 feat deeper into the woods and their are trees that are only 3-4x my size. That is why using the Trees as a gauge is not very reliable; while using Kakashi is a much better guage.



> That's not the same Katon I showed you, the one against in this link is more potent then the regular Katon, but has a smaller AoE.


It's the same exact Katon enhanced by Fuuton, and we have never once since a Fuuton being added to a Katon decrease the Katons AOE.



> Sasuke was not able to physically move.


Yes he was, we very clearly see him move his head and LOS noticing Ei.



> And Why Are you under the impression that Enma will instantly spawn knowing what to do...........he will spawn in his regular monkey form have not a single clue of what's going on on the battlefield.


He's not going to know what to do w/ a Giant guy suddenly appears ready to punch (or whatever) his summoner?



> Realize? Why does he have to realize? He will see that Hiruzen is making KB.


Him seeing or not seeing the KB made depends on the battlefield, what Jutsu Hiruzen used before the KB, starting distance, etc... tons of different factors here. 

Even if he does see he will not know which one is the Clone (Kakuzu saw Naruto create clones and still did not know which one was the real deal), so their will be an instant where Ei hits the clone and he has his LOS blocked by the Smoke and needs to register that this was a clone and than prepare a second attack against the Real Hiruzen or another KB (depending on how many KB are created). By the time all of this is done Hiruzen has more than enough time to use a Jutsu.

For example when Ei uses R2 speed to evade Sasuke's Amaterasu, their is more than enough time between that an Ei's second usage of R2 speed to blitz Sasuke for Fodder Samurai of all people to move around and do shit:
THIS 



> When Ei went V2 and charged Minato had a split second to GTFO. Minato has far better reflexes then Hiruzen.


You bring up Minato, but the Ei vs Minato encounter actually detracts from your point. Despite Ei opting for R2 speed against Minato right away (due to Minato's speed hype), Ei still gave Minato a good bit of time to do shit before the blitz.

Minato threw a FTG Kunai and their was talking an shit:
THIS 

Than Minato still had time after that to reach into his bag pull and scatter a ton of other FTG Kunai:
THIS 

Than Ei uses his max speed against Minato and he has time to drop a Kunai and use FTG.

If Hiruzen were in Minato's situation he'd have enough time cast Jutsu, Summon Enma, etc....

Than let's look at how much time it took after B saved Ei, for Ei to charge Minato again:
THIS 
THIS 
THIS 

With that amount of time Hiruzen again in Minato's situation could have cast Jutsu, summoned, enma, etc....

Ei doesn't really continuously blitz in R2, where he does one Shunshin attack right after the other. There is always some time in-between and in many cases this time is enough for Hiruzen to use Jutsu.



> No he can dodge them, especially from close range.


This is based on very surface reasoning on your part, without considering Hiruzen's options

- Ei has been shown to not start matches w/ his max speed and thus be hit by attacks or matched in speed by things that he would otherwise have been able to evade in R2. This gives Hiruzen an opening in the early stages of the fight
- Ei's been shown to be taken off guard by Jutsu slower than himself when distracted before; Hiruzen can create that distraction w/ KB
- Ei has no sensory abilities so if his LOS is blocked he can't evade attacks that he can't see coming; Hiruzen has many LOS blockers
- Ei has never shown the ability to escape the sheer scale and AOE of Hiruzen's Jutsu, even when Sasuke brought the roof down on him, which cover a much smaller AOE than Hiruzen's Jutsu, he could not escape the area in time to evade the roof falling on him
- Ei can't even evade Shiki Fuujin as the attack is invisible
- Than their are other conditions to take into account such as battlefield, knowledge, starting distance, which could all aid Hiruzen in tagging Ei

It's not as simple as hey Ei's faster therefore he evades every possible strategy Hiruzen can employ.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 24, 2014)

> And eventually runs out of chakra..


Now your arguing something that has nothing to do w/ Ei's blitzing ability, but Ei's stamina. Yes Ei might be able to outlast him, but that is entirely dependent on what Hiruzen does and how the match plays out.



> .........Or why don't Ei just pick up the cage...........


And while he does that Hiruzen kills him w/ elemental Jutsu from point blank range



> And what feats does Budha's Doton have? If you cannot show me a feat, or even a statement that indicates how powerfully he Budha's Doton is THEN YOU ARE SPECULATING. Domu IS the best Doton defence we have seen, unless you want to show me a better one.


If you can't show me a feat or statement that indicates Domu is better than Buddha's Doton, you are also speculating. We are both speculating.



> It was an average Doton wall, nothing special shown about it. It blocked some Suiton as it is supposed to but got easily pierced by a 5% Hashirama Mokouton.


Average Doton wall is the Technique Kakashi used against Deva (Doton Doryuheki):
THIS 

 Hiruzen's is a step above that and is called Doton: Doryuu Jouheki; can be produced without a Earth source and is much larger than the smaller variant. Additionally it has the same acquisition difficulty rank (B-Rank) as Doton Domu in the Data-book. So if you call Doton: Doryuu Jouheki average than so is Doton: Domu by that logic.

Their is no shame in getting pierce by Mokuton Birth of Trees. 



> I could just as easily say Kakazu has more then one Doton


You can say whatever you want, but your assertion is not even remotely as likely or even really defendable

- Kakuzu did not pull out the exact same Jutsu as the Buddha in each element, a feat that would necessitate a large pool of Jutsu in element
- Kakuzu did not actually master the 5 nature alterations, he stole the powers of other peoples hearts
- Kakuzu has only shown the 1 Jutsu per Heart, suggesting that his masked beat may only be capable of that 1 elemental jutsu, even when brought back as a tensei it's still just those Jutsu. Hiruzen keeps showing more elemental Jutsu
- Kakuzu is not stated to have mastered over thousand Jutsu
- Kakuzu is not hyped to have mastered all the Jutsu in the Leaf village, which would obviously include a wide variety of elemental Jutsu.




> Your saying Hiruzens Doton is better, but its not. Nothing he has shown is better then something like Domu.


Were just going to have to agree to disagree than. As I can't see Domu being > Buddha Doton + Doton: Doryuu Jouheki.




> Really? Then I ask you again, where does it say that the Budha's Ninjutsu is amazing? Where does it say anything about his Ninjutsu? Your are speculating, plain and simple. Budha's Raiton has ZERO feats. Raikiri has plenty, so the fact that Gian forced Kakashi to use 2 Raikiri means that Gian is as wear full as 2 Raikiri and could do anything Raikiri has done so far x2 more powerful.


Common sense and the scale of the Jutsu says Buddha's Ninjutsu is amazing 

But, of course i'm speculating and you are also speculating when you say that Gian is better than Buddha's Jutsu. 



> No I'm not speculating you hypocrite, you have been speculating this whole time. Saying Gian is better then the Budha's Raiton IS A FACT until the Budha's Feats show otherwise.


Sorry, but this is utter BS dude.

You can not say we don't know how stronger Budha's Raiton is and than say Gian being stronger is a FACT. If we don't know how strong Buddha's Raiton is, than how can you assert Gian being strong as a fact? Now you say, well it has the Rarikiri feat, but that doesn't prove shit, because if we don't know Buddha's strength, thnwe don't know how Buddha's Jutsu would perform in that scenario and we can not compare them on the basis of Rarikiri. 

You seem to be confusing how tangible a feat is w/ how good a feat is. We measuring Gian's strength, because we have better grasp on Rarikiri strength. However just because we can't measure Buddha's feat as precisely does not make Gian's better; again the most you can argue is we don't know; if you want to avoid speculation.

Finally your the one being unknowningly hypocritical, because you are speculating and than bitching at someone else for doing the same. I am not being hypocritical at all because I 100% admit to speculating and have had no problem with you doing the same; though I do think their is difference between good speculation and poor speculation.




> Did you take into account that Swirlys Budha is over 50 times smaller then Hashiramas Budha?
> Did you take into account that Raiton is Kakashi more proficient affinity, while Hashirama does not have Raiton to train with?
> Your being biased and a fanboy right now, make speculations for your claims that I have never even dreamed of someone using. Drop the speculation and assumptions and start using real feats and this argument would not have lasted more then 4 posts. Your specs are wasting my time, by feats, Kakazu's Raiton>Hiruzens and by feats Kakazus Doton>Hiruzens. Katon is about to the same to be generous even if its AoE is much larger.


Your just repeating yourself now,  not actually addressing the points i'm making, hypocritically telling me to stop speculating when you are doing so yourself, etc....



> We are not talking about the combo here, we are talking about the regular Katon. THIS is clearly larger then that of Hiruzens. I could call everyone on this forum here and they will say the same, your fanboyism is blinding you.


First off I do not think everyone on the forum would agree w/ you that is total BS on your part. Second I really would not care if everyone did, as all that matters is what's shown int he manga. In the manga Fuuton have never decreased Katon's AOE, In the manga we are told Fuuton increases Fire scale (THIS ), In the Data-book entry for Kakuzu's Katon it even says the Fuuton increase the AOE: "By adding Wind nature, the vigour of the fire is increased, causing a burning so tremendous, it will reduce the are to a field ravaged by fire...!!"

You are going to sit here and ignore all of this and instead use the extremely inconsistent size of trees to scale Kakuzu's Katon. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.

And if anyone can be accused of being a fanboy it's you who has Kakuzu in his sig; not me.



> Go ahead and explain and show where the Budha's hype for Ninjutsu is. I'm waiting.


Their are literally to many panels compounding the hype of Hashirama's Chakra and Hashirama Jutsu, for me to bother w/ this. If you can't see why those elemental Jutsu are hyped coming from one of Hashirama's best Jutsu, I don't know what is going to convince you anyway.



> hey are his skill, he trained with them, and has lived longer then Hiruzen has.


Where is it stated he trained with them? Where is it even stated to be his skill, he may have just gotten the skills from the hearts he stole or Jingo w/ certain hearts simply allow for those abilities. Ether way Kakuzu's case is quite unique.



> . I'm not dodging anything, I'm simply not making assumptions like you. I have had a lot of patience with your speculations but seeing as how you cannot make a single argument without using them my patience is growing thin.


And yet you continue to dodge the question I keep asking you.



> Kishi himself made the Databook, of course many things in it contradict themselves but its second to Manga feats nevertheless and can be used to support a fact, which I am doing.


Why are you talking about the Data-book; BD = Battledome. Essentially every time we talk match ups here it's all speculation on how things would play out as we are not Kishi and therefore do not know for sure; we make educated guess based on what's been shown, told, and implied. You have been doing the same thing this entire time, so to than tell me not to speculate is ridiculous, and basically saying hey I can speculate, but you have to prove everything w/ facts, which is pretty dam unfair.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jan 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No you wouldn't. You'd have to be standing a great amount of distance in-front of the two houses. If you were standing side by side w/ the house or even slightly in-front you would not look huge compared to them.



The trees are a great amount of distance to the side. 




> Not the one he is next to. The one in-front of him dwarfs him, your right about that, but it also dwarfs the entire elemental exchange and even the dust cloud kicked up by it.



And.............




> Yes he was, we very clearly see him move his head and LOS noticing Ei.



LOL well CLEARLY your wrong.




> He's not going to know what to do w/ a Giant guy suddenly appears ready to punch (or whatever) his summoner?



He won't SEE said "giant" guy, by the time Enma is summoned Hiruzen will already be punched in the face. Killed I should say. 




> Him seeing or not seeing the KB made depends on the battlefield, what Jutsu Hiruzen used before the KB, starting distance, etc... tons of different factors here.



Where will the original go? How about we go with the most plausible scenario. 



> Even if he does see he will not know which one is the Clone (Kakuzu saw Naruto create clones and still did not know which one was the real deal), so their will be an instant where Ei hits the clone and he has his LOS blocked by the Smoke and needs to register that this was a clone and than prepare a second attack against the Real Hiruzen or another KB (depending on how many KB are created). By the time all of this is done Hiruzen has more than enough time to use a Jutsu.



Naruto has trained years perfecting his coordination with his clones, that's one of the only things he does. Hiruzen can't make as many clones and coordination feats with his clones are non-existent, seeing as how he has them do there own thing. 




> For example when Ei uses R2 speed to evade Sasuke's Amaterasu, their is more than enough time between that an Ei's second usage of R2 speed to blitz Sasuke for Fodder Samurai of all people to move around and do shit:
> CLEARLY



Hiruzen has nothing nearly as fast as Ametarasu, Ei won't be concentrating so much of dodging, he would go on the offence. 




> You bring up Minato, but the Ei vs Minato encounter actually detracts from your point. Despite Ei opting for R2 speed against Minato right away (due to Minato's speed hype), Ei still gave Minato a good bit of time to do shit before the blitz.



Because of dialogue, you think they will be talking here? No they won't. 



> Than Ei uses his max speed against Minato and he has time to drop a Kunai and use FTG.



He threw the FTG Kunai in the air when Ei charged and used FTG just barely escaping the attack. Hiruzen has to get blood, create the summon, inform Enma of what's going on, have Enma turn into a cage. 



> Than let's look at how much time it took after B saved Ei, for Ei to charge Minato again:
> CLEARLY
> CLEARLY
> Link removed
> ...



Wow, do you not see the dialogue there? I'm speechless. 



> Ei doesn't really continuously blitz in R2, where he does one Shunshin attack right after the other. There is always some time in-between and in many cases this time is enough for Hiruzen to use Jutsu.



Ya, I would not expect Ei to talk while charging. 



> This is based on very surface reasoning on your part, without considering Hiruzen's options
> 
> - Ei has been shown to not start matches w/ his max speed and thus be hit by attacks or matched in speed by things that he would otherwise have been able to evade in R2. This gives Hiruzen an opening in the early stages of the fight
> - Ei's been shown to be taken off guard by Jutsu slower than himself when distracted before; Hiruzen can create that distraction w/ KB
> ...



-Hiruzen does not start off with Clones and Enma
-Hiruzen will start with some simple Shuriken throwing, which Ei easily dodges
-Hiruzen will then proceed to use some of his basic elemental Jutsu, which Ei yet again dodges 
-Hiruzen will summon Enma, Ei will notice the threat and go into V2 
-Hiruzen goes in for some Kenjutsu/Taijutsu in close combat and get a Lariate to which both him and Enma will not be able to react. 
g
GG Hiruzen. 



Turrin said:


> Now your arguing something that has nothing to do w/ Ei's blitzing ability, but Ei's stamina. Yes Ei might be able to outlast him, but that is entirely dependent on what Hiruzen does and how the match plays out.
> 
> 
> And while he does that Hiruzen kills him w/ elemental Jutsu from point blank range



Except his Ninjutsu is not as fast as Ametarasu, Ei easily dodges anything he throws at him. 




> If you can't show me a feat or statement that indicates Domu is better than Buddha's Doton, you are also speculating. We are both speculating.



Feats? Did you not know that Domu has feats? Yeah sure HERE  is some crazy durability. Want some hype now? Sure, Domu is said to be as hard as diamond in the DB. Now show me a good feat and hype for the Budha's Doton. If you can't, you loose this argument.  




> Average Doton wall is the Technique Kakashi used against Deva (Doton Doryuheki):
> HERE
> 
> Hiruzen's is a step above that and is called Doton: Doryuu Jouheki; can be produced without a Earth source and is much larger than the smaller variant. Additionally it has the same acquisition difficulty rank (B-Rank) as Doton Domu in the Data-book. So if you call Doton: Doryuu Jouheki average than so is Doton: Domu by that logic.



Really? Last time I checked Kakazu was the only one who has shown Domu, while there are more then a handful of characters that have made different variations of the Doton wall. Its an average defence used by a Doton user while Domu is clearly not. 




> Common sense and the scale of the Jutsu says Buddha's Ninjutsu is amazing



Common sense my arse, you are simply making excuses to try to do something with your argument. Why don't you just concede? Is obvious you won't be able to prove how potent the Budha's Ninjutsu are. 



> But, of course i'm speculating and you are also speculating when you say that Gian is better than Buddha's Jutsu.



No I'm not. I have already stated why its not speculation, if you choose to be ignorant I don't care. 




> Sorry, but this is utter BS dude.
> 
> You can not say we don't know how stronger Budha's Raiton is and than say Gian being stronger is a FACT. If we don't know how strong Buddha's Raiton is, than how can you assert Gian being strong as a fact? Now you say, well it has the Rarikiri feat, but that doesn't prove shit, because if we don't know Buddha's strength, thnwe don't know how Buddha's Jutsu would perform in that scenario and we can not compare them on the basis of Rarikiri.
> 
> ...



So your saying, you cannot say that a Jutsu with actual feats is stronger then a Jutsu that does not? Now this is utter BS, in the battledome, a Jutsu with actual feats is superior to a Jutsu that does not have any. 

I am not speculating, I could go and ask 5 people right now if I am speculating anywhere in my argument and they will likely say no, you acting delusional.  




> First off I do not think everyone on the forum would agree w/ you that is total BS on your part. Second I really would not care if everyone did, as all that matters is what's shown int he manga. In the manga Fuuton have never decreased Katon's AOE, In the manga we are told Fuuton increases Fire scale (HERE ), In the Data-book entry for Kakuzu's Katon it even says the Fuuton increase the AOE: "By adding Wind nature, the vigour of the fire is increased, causing a burning so tremendous, it will reduce the are to a field ravaged by fire...!!"
> 
> You are going to sit here and ignore all of this and instead use the extremely inconsistent size of trees to scale Kakuzu's Katon. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.
> 
> And if anyone can be accused of being a fanboy it's you who has Kakuzu in his sig; not me.



Well clearly feats say otherwise. 

I agree, this is getting ridiculous, you simply cannot stop speculating. I, dropping everything that has to do with your speculations from this point because its a waste of my time seeing as how you will clearly chose to remain ignorant. 




> Why are you talking about the Data-book; BD = Battledome. Essentially every time we talk match ups here it's all speculation on how things would play out as we are not Kishi and therefore do not know for sure; we make educated guess based on what's been shown, told, and implied. You have been doing the same thing this entire time, so to than tell me not to speculate is ridiculous, and basically saying hey I can speculate, but you have to prove everything w/ facts, which is pretty dam unfair.



Yes the battles themselves are speculations, however we use facts to determine a winner.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 24, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> The trees are a great amount of distance to the side.


No they aren't.



> And.............


The one he's next to shows how their can be small and large trees.



> LOL well CLEARLY your wrong.


I can not see MangaFox links.



> He won't SEE said "giant" guy, by the time Enma is summoned Hiruzen will already be punched in the face. Killed I should say.


So Ei is faster than Space-time, yeah okay, whatever bro.



> Where will the original go? How about we go with the most plausible scenario.


Use a Jutsu to block LOS. Some Locations Start w/ LOS Blocked or things to duck behind. Hiruzen blocking LOS and using a clone fient is a very plausible scenario, we've seen plenty of shinobi do so before.



> Naruto has trained years perfecting his coordination with his clones, that's one of the only things he does. Hiruzen can't make as many clones and coordination feats with his clones are non-existent, seeing as how he has them do there own thing.


Naruto made three clones against Kakuzu. Hiruzen made 4 this chapter. Hiruzen has ridiculously good clone feats. Hiruzen's KB don't disperse went hit. Hiruzen invented Shuriken Kage Bushin no Jutsu. etc... Hiruzen has more experience w/ KB than Naruto does, he's literally one of the most experienced ninja in the manga.



> Hiruzen has nothing nearly as fast as Ametarasu, Ei won't be concentrating so much of dodging, he would go on the offence.


You don't seem to get it even after Ei dodged Amaterasu and had nothing to consume his attention there was still enough time for the fodder Samurai to move around and do shit, before he his blitz against Sasuke happened.



> Because of dialogue, you think they will be talking here? No they won't.


Minato was doing shit besides the dialog, like throwing Kunai.  And yes I do think they will be talking here as most of the time their is some preamble before a battle. Like-wise I highly doubt Ei is starting this match in R2 or opting to use it as quickly against Hiruzen as against the Yellow Flash. So that gives Hiruzen even more time.



> He threw the FTG Kunai in the air when Ei charged and used FTG just barely escaping the attack. Hiruzen has to get blood, create the summon, inform Enma of what's going on, have Enma turn into a cage.



- Getting blood is a matter of biting ones finger
- Kuchiyose is Space-Time so it's instant
- Enma will see what's going down himself; at worst Hiruzen has to utter one word "cage" to tell Enma to transform.
- Enma Transforming is nigh instant

Unless Hiruzen just happens to be on a stroll, completely unaware that he is going into battle, and ran bumped into Ei at point blank range, and Ei immediately jumps to R2 Shunshin Blitz in that same instance; Hiruzen is going to have enough time to summon. And quite honestly that is a pretty uncommon and ridiculous scenario.



> Wow, do you not see the dialogue there? I'm speechless.


Wow do you not realize it's Ei's choice to talk, rather than instantly follow up w/ another R2 Shunshin blitz? Do you realize that is perfectly illustrates my point that Ei does not tend to use one R2 Shunshin blitz right after another, and that gives people the chance to use Jutsu. 



> Ya, I would not expect Ei to talk while charging.


Nether would I, but I would expect for him to talk before hand and more to the point, not start the match by instantly R2 Shunshin Blitzing, which will give Hiruzen time to cast Jutsu. Basically can you show me any instance where Ei has not given his opponent time to cast Jutsu before using R2 Blitz. He certainly gave Sasuke more than enough time to cast Jutsu before using R2 Shunshin. etc...



> -Hiruzen does not start off with Clones and Enma
> -Hiruzen will start with some simple Shuriken throwing, which Ei easily dodges
> -Hiruzen will then proceed to use some of his basic elemental Jutsu, which Ei yet again dodges
> -Hiruzen will summon Enma, Ei will notice the threat and go into V2
> ...


- Hiruzen has knowledge of Ei speed and would know he needs Enma or KB
- Ei does not have knowledge of Enma's Cage form and I have no clue why he would see Enma as a threat to warrant R2 Shunshin.
- Hiruzen rushing in against Ei muscle bound superman who he just witnessed superspeed dodge 2 of his attacks according to you, makes Hiruzen look like a moron, which makes this laughable
- Enma's transformation to cage form is nigh instant, it will form before Ei can blitz.

Your scenario is very unrealistic and does not answer any of my points.



> Except his Ninjutsu is not as fast as Ametarasu, Ei easily dodges anything he throws at him.


I just explained to you how he can hit Ei. It's not like any shinobi who doesn't have a faster attack than Amaterasu looses to Ei, their are other methods to hitting someone than relying purely on speed.



> Feats? Did you not know that Domu has feats? Yeah sure HERE is some crazy durability. Want some hype now? Sure, Domu is said to be as hard as diamond in the DB. Now show me a good feat and hype for the Budha's Doton. If you can't, you loose this argument.


A good feat from Buddha's Doton is being used at that scale and size. However these feats your showing me of Domu's do not prove Domu is better than Doton, so once again I repeat you are also speculating. As for hype the Doton being used by one of Hashirama's best Jutsu is far more hype than DB stuff.



> Really? Last time I checked Kakazu was the only one who has shown Domu, while there are more then a handful of characters that have made different variations of the Doton wall. Its an average defence used by a Doton user while Domu is clearly not.


I just explained to you that Hiruzen's Doton: Doryuu Jouheki is not the same thing as the average Doton Doryuheki. And lol at calling Kishimoto wrong about his own manga, when he says the acquisition difficulty in both cases is B-rank. 



> Common sense my arse, you are simply making excuses to try to do something with your argument. Why don't you just concede? Is obvious you won't be able to prove how potent the Budha's Ninjutsu are.


Why don't you just concede you can't prove Kakuzu's are more potent 



> No I'm not. I have already stated why its not speculation, if you choose to be ignorant I don't care.


I know you have already stated why you think your not speculating, but your wrong, so yeah....



> *So your saying, you cannot say that a Jutsu with actual feats is stronger then a Jutsu that does not?* Now this is utter BS, in the battledome, a Jutsu with actual feats is superior to a Jutsu that does not have any.


The moment a Jutsu is used it has a feat. But the bold is absolutely right, you can't say it's a Fact that a featless Jutsu is inferior to one w/ feats, because it does not have the feats (or statements) for us to measure whether the other Jutsu is better or not. You can guess it is based on the feats of another Jutsu, but that is speculation.

For example if I say X Shinobi uses Y Jutsu, how can you prove Gian is better, you can't, because we don't have all the variables. It's the same w/ a featless Jutsu. Though Buddha's elements do have a feat, it's just not as easy to measure as a feat such as counterbalancing rarikiri in the case of Gian.



> I am not speculating, I could go and ask 5 people right now if I am speculating anywhere in my argument and they will likely say no, you acting delusional.


Dude go ask people if your speculating when you say Gian > Buddha's Riaton, anyone who understands the meaning of the word speculation will tell you that you are.



> Well clearly feats say otherwise.


No they don't. You are misinterpreting the Katon's size by using an unreliable scale (the trees), that's not the feats saying otherwise, that's you willfully misinterpreting them as otherwise you have no argument.



> I agree, this is getting ridiculous, you simply cannot stop speculating. I, dropping everything that has to do with your speculations from this point because its a waste of my time seeing as how you will clearly chose to remain ignorant.


Than you should have dropped the entire post, including your own comments, because this is all speculation. You literally just speculated on how exactly a Hiruzen vs Ei battle to the point where you gave me a play by play of events , and yet you have the gull to sit here and bitch about me speculating; that's pretty dam childish bro.



> Yes the battles themselves are speculations, however we use facts to determine a winner.


Yes and Kakuzu's Elemental Jutsu  > Buddha's is not Fact. You are speculating as much as I am when comparing the two. And usually we do not use facts, in the BD, but more like education assumptions. We think X Jutsu would beat Y Jutsu, because of Z Feats or Q Hype. Very rarely do we actually know how certain clashes of Jutsu would actually play out or how characters will for sue act, etc... Oddly I've speculated less than you as I've said Buddha's Jutsu should be at least around Kakuzu's level, which leaves a-lot of options open, they could be equal, slight stronger, slight weaker, etc... while you are definitively say Kakuzu's are > Buddha's, which takes much more speculation as their is only one possibility according to you. Likewise in the other part of our discussion Ei vs Hiruzen you speculated, more than me given a play by play of how events are exactly go down, while I just threw out many possibilities and said the situation would depend on many factors, and that Hiruzen could win, not definitely would win as you have asserted in the case of Ei. When I say Hiruzen has other elemental Jutsu i'm speculating, but it's very good speculation; when you say he doesn't your speculating, but it's very poor speculation. 

So your ether speculating more than me or more poorly than I am throughout this entire convo.


----------



## luminaeus (Jan 24, 2014)

Hmm. Probably base Jiraiya.

I miss Jiraiya, can hardly remember all his abilities other than toads, toads, toads.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jan 25, 2014)

Turrin said:


> No they aren't.



Yes they are, they are in a completely different location. 




> I can not see MangaFox links.



Sasuke did not turn his head, Ei was behind him, he covered his Susanoo in Enton, Ei stoped attacking and only then did he look at Ei. 




> So Ei is faster than Space-time, yeah okay, whatever bro.



So Enma has space time reflexes? Ya ok whatever bro. 




> Naruto made three clones against Kakuzu. Hiruzen made 4 this chapter. Hiruzen has ridiculously good clone feats. Hiruzen's KB don't disperse went hit. Hiruzen invented Shuriken Kage Bushin no Jutsu. etc... Hiruzen has more experience w/ KB than Naruto does, he's literally one of the most experienced ninja in the manga.



Ya and how are these feats ridiculous? As an Edo he made 4 clones and made them use elemental Jutsu and while alive he only managed to pull off 2 clones and had them seal the Fodder kages,  don't see any coordination involved. How do you know he does? Konoha was peaceful for a good 25 years bar that one Masked man attack, in which he did not use any clones. Naruto has practiced half his life using KB and hundreds of them at the same time at that. Ironically, Kakazu is more experienced. 




> You don't seem to get it even after Ei dodged Amaterasu and had nothing to consume his attention there was still enough time for the fodder Samurai to move around and do shit, before he his blitz against Sasuke happened.



You do realize that it was while they where fighting right? You do realize Ei will not simply stay in one spot and stare Hiruzen down right? Its ridiculous to even think so, ones he goes in V2 he will CHARGE Hiruzen, not stare him down like an idiot. 






> - Getting blood is a matter of biting ones finger
> - Kuchiyose is Space-Time so it's instant
> - Enma will see what's going down himself; at worst Hiruzen has to utter one word "cage" to tell Enma to transform.
> - Enma Transforming is nigh instant



By the time Hiruzen puts his finger up to his mouth Ei's fist will already be at his face. Even if he miraculously does summon Enma just in time Enma WON'T be able to do anything because he does not have reflexes that allow him to react to V2 Ei. And if by some chance Enma does see Ei, it wil only be once his fist is inches from Hiruzens face, and turning into a cage at that point will only trap Hiruzen with Ei. 




> Wow do you not realize it's Ei's choice to talk, rather than instantly follow up w/ another R2 Shunshin blitz? Do you realize that is perfectly illustrates my point that Ei does not tend to use one R2 Shunshin blitz right after another, and that gives people the chance to use Jutsu.



Really? He did it against Naruto, he did it against Mu and Madara, he was going to do it against Minato on the second charge. 




> Nether would I, but I would expect for him to talk before hand and more to the point, not start the match by instantly R2 Shunshin Blitzing, which will give Hiruzen time to cast Jutsu. Basically can you show me any instance where Ei has not given his opponent time to cast Jutsu before using R2 Blitz. He certainly gave Sasuke more than enough time to cast Jutsu before using R2 Shunshin. etc...



Why the hell would they be talking? This is a fight to see who is stronger, there will be very little dialogue if any at all. Even if Ei gives time to use Jutsu it would not matter because Hiruzen has no counter to his blitz. 




> - Hiruzen has knowledge of Ei speed and would know he needs Enma or KB
> - Ei does not have knowledge of Enma's Cage form and I have no clue why he would see Enma as a threat to warrant R2 Shunshin.
> - Hiruzen rushing in against Ei muscle bound superman who he just witnessed superspeed dodge 2 of his attacks according to you, makes Hiruzen look like a moron, which makes this laughable
> - Enma's transformation to cage form is nigh instant, it will form before Ei can blitz.
> ...



Ei can get to Hiruzen just as fast as Enma would turn into a cage, that's all there is to it. The cage is not a winning factor, he traps himself and avoids the inevitable for a short period of time




> I just explained to you how he can hit Ei. It's not like any shinobi who doesn't have a faster attack than Amaterasu looses to Ei, their are other methods to hitting someone than relying purely on speed.



Yes I know, but Hiruzen can't. Nothing in his arsenal can. 



> A good feat from Buddha's Doton is being used at that scale and size. However these feats your showing me of Domu's do not prove Domu is better than Doton, so once again I repeat you are also speculating. As for hype the Doton being used by one of Hashirama's best Jutsu is far more hype than DB stuff.



No I am not speculating, I clearly just showed you a feat yet you lack your own. Concession accepted, seeing as how you lack feats to justify your argument. 




> Why don't you just concede you can't prove Kakuzu's are more potent



Already have, so I accept your concession. 




> I know you have already stated why you think your not speculating, but your wrong, so yeah....



No I'm not. Your ignorant and are desperate to prove something that you can't.




> So your ether speculating more than me or more poorly than I am throughout this entire convo.



No, I am stating a fact as far as feats go. We accept feats here. I will repeat, We cannot say a Jutsu that has no feats is as good as a Jutsu that actually has them, I'm not speculating by saying that a Jutsu with feats is better then a Jutsu without them and I even go as far as to say until feats show otherwise. Your being unimaginably ridiculous by saying this, Minato mentioned a technique of his but still has no used it: Rasen Senkō Chō Rinbu Kōsan Shiki, now say we put him up against SM Hashirama, using your exact logic, I would say at best its a tie because Rasen Senkō Chō Rinbu Kōsan Shiki is featless, and we cannot say that the Budha is better then said attack which does not have feats. Your logic is beyond flawed.


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## Icegaze (Jan 25, 2014)

ill put him around mid kage level 
he can most certainly beat the likes of hidan and kakuzu. 
therefore he is mid kage. Being able to use combination of 5 elements. fire+Wind, water+electricity. water+wind etc makes his attack set very versatile. 
combine that with fuma KB shiruken which isnt a fodder move btw and the fact that he uses clones and has a diamond staff. And ill say he is goign to put up with most mid kage level and defeat all lower kage level. 


i wont however put him at gai or kakashi level. because their techniques are hard to counter. same for the likes of sasori


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## Turrin (Jan 26, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Yes they are, they are in a completely different location.


They are in the same forest, just a different area of that forest, which illustrates my point, that within a forest the size of trees vary radically, therefore Trees are not a reliable guide.



> Sasuke did not turn his head, Ei was behind him, he covered his Susanoo in Enton, Ei stoped attacking and only then did he look at Ei.


Link removed



> So Enma has space time reflexes? Ya ok whatever bro.


Even after Ei had amped his shroud to R2 and evaded Amaterasu, Samurai had time to move around and shit, before he launched the blitz. That's more than enough time to summon out Enma and Enma to take on Cage form. Additionally even after Ei launched the blitz Sasuke had time to form an Enton shield around himself, that is more than enough time for Enma to transform into his cage form



> Ya and how are these feats ridiculous? As an Edo he made 4 clones and made them use elemental Jutsu and while alive he only managed to pull off 2 clones and had them seal the Fodder kages, don't see any coordination involved. How do you know he does? Konoha was peaceful for a good 25 years bar that one Masked man attack, in which he did not use any clones. Naruto has practiced half his life using KB and hundreds of them at the same time at that. Ironically, Kakazu is more experienced.


So your seriously arguing that a 70 Year old Hokage has less experience w/ KB than a 16 year old Naruto. And it's not like Naruto did some crazy maneuver against Kakuzu, the moment he made the clones Kakuzu didn't know which the real one was. 



> You do realize that it was while they where fighting right? You do realize Ei will not simply stay in one spot and stare Hiruzen down right? Its ridiculous to even think so, ones he goes in V2 he will CHARGE Hiruzen, not stare him down like an idiot.


What are you talking about... I really can't make any sense of this mess. I'm not saying Ei is going to stand their, i'm saying Ei does not instantly use one R2 Shunshin Blitz after another, their is time inbetween where people can do shit.



> By the time Hiruzen puts his finger up to his mouth Ei's fist will already be at his face. Even if he miraculously does summon Enma just in time Enma WON'T be able to do anything because he does not have reflexes that allow him to react to V2 Ei. And if by some chance Enma does see Ei, it wil only be once his fist is inches from Hiruzens face, and turning into a cage at that point will only trap Hiruzen with Ei.


No Ei won't, he has never opted to blitz someone with R2 that quickly into the match. Enma can assume cage form nigh instantly so if he see's Ei amping his shroud up to R2 levels he'll have enough time to transform; he does not need to wait until Ei is right in-front of his face.



> Really? He did it against Naruto, he did it against Mu and Madara, he was going to do it against Minato on the second charge.


What are you talking about. He did not instantly opt for R2 Shunshin Blitz against Naruto. He did Opt for R2 Shunshin blitz against Minato, but gave Minato enough time to casually spread out Kunai before than, which is enough time for Hiruzen to use Jutsu. Against Madara, we literally see Mei have time to cast a Jutsu before he R2 Blitz's and that was Madara. So no a single one of the examples you brought up supports your point.



> Why the hell would they be talking? This is a fight to see who is stronger, there will be very little dialogue if any at all. Even if Ei gives time to use Jutsu it would not matter because Hiruzen has no counter to his blitz.


Because all Naruto characters talk, that's how fights work in the manga. 
Enma, KB, LOS Blocking, AOE Elemental Jutsu, all counter Ei's blitz



> Ei can get to Hiruzen just as fast as Enma would turn into a cage, that's all there is to it. The cage is not a winning factor, he traps himself and avoids the inevitable for a short period of time


- No Ei can't and he won't even start w/ R2 Blitz against Hiruzen IC
- Hiruzen can do a-lot of shit from the cage i've already explained it you and you've chosen to ignore it.



> Yes I know, but Hiruzen can't. Nothing in his arsenal can.


No clearly you don't know or you wouldn't be sitting here saying it's impossible for Hiruzen to hit Ei, when I explained many methods for him to do just that.



> No I am not speculating, I clearly just showed you a feat yet you lack your own. Concession accepted, seeing as how you lack feats to justify your argument.


Concession accepted seeing as how you lack feats to justify your argument that Gian is stronger 



> Already have, so I accept your concession.


You already have conceded the point that you can't prove Gian is stronger? If so than we can drop this bit of the convo.



> No I'm not. Your ignorant and are desperate to prove something that you can't.


Your acting like a little kid, with this shit



> No, I am stating a fact as far as feats go. We accept feats here. I will repeat, We cannot say a Jutsu that has no feats is as good as a Jutsu that actually has them, I'm not speculating by saying that a Jutsu with feats is better then a Jutsu without them and I even go as far as to say until feats show otherwise. Your being unimaginably ridiculous by saying this, Minato mentioned a technique of his but still has no used it: Rasen Senkō Chō Rinbu Kōsan Shiki, now say we put him up against SM Hashirama, using your exact logic, I would say at best its a tie because Rasen Senkō Chō Rinbu Kōsan Shiki is featless, and we cannot say that the Budha is better then said attack which does not have feats. Your logic is beyond flawed.


I will repeat you can't say that a Jutsu which as no feats (which incidently all Jutsu have, so that makes no sense to begin with), is inferior to a Jutsu w/ feats as we can't measure which one is better. So saying Gian is better because it did such and such, is speculating, as we don't know that for sure, as we have nothing to measure the other feat by. Sorry, but your speculating that shit out of everything in your post.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 26, 2014)

Old Hiruzen, I reckon could probably take a decent amount of strong shinobi, perhaps those like Danzo. 

Prime Hiruzen would probably be able to fight on the level of the other Hokage, seeing as I'm under the notion that his stats would've been perfect if not for his old age.

Bear in mind old Hiruzen's (thus prime Hiruzen by extension) capabilities are subject to change as we see more.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 26, 2014)

Turrin said:


> They are in the same forest, just a different area of that forest, which illustrates my point, that within a forest the size of trees vary radically, therefore Trees are not a reliable guide.
> 
> 
> Sasuke
> ...



I'm done here, you can't accept a fact, you chose to be ignorant then so be it. Go ahead an believe that a Jutsu without feats is not considered inferior to a Jutsu with feats Until fewts show otherwise LOL.


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## Skaddix (Jan 27, 2014)

The problem with judging Edos is they are better then prime due to the infinite stamina and regen capabilities. So sure he can use all the elements but that is not necessarily going to help, honestly, the shuriken feat was more impressive in my book.


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## Jad (Jan 27, 2014)

I see Hiruzen having trouble defeating two particular Jounin's from the same village. How can he be considered Kage level


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 27, 2014)

Jad said:


> I see Hiruzen having trouble defeating two particular Jounin's from the same village. How can he be considered Kage level



Why would he lose against Neji and Asuma?


And, some of you guys are jumping the gun way too early. Let's wait to see what else he has to offer before making serious gambits on his level.


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