# Kakashi vs Kabuto



## Ghost (Aug 11, 2015)

Part 1.



Location: CE stadium

Knowledge: Same that they had when they faced during the invasion. 

Starting distance: 5 meters

SoM: Kill the opponent asap.


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## Larry (Aug 11, 2015)

Kakashi would win mid-high diff

Kabuto is pretty strong tbh


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2015)

Inb4 Kakashj uses sharingan genjufsu to neg 
Or raiton bunshin feint . Or simply throws a kunai in his face 

Kakashi wins though lol


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## Mercurial (Aug 11, 2015)

The fact that some people say "part 1 Kakashi is part 1 Kabuto's equal, also because in Shippuden Kakashi acquired MS and Kabuto Orochimaru's powers, than Kakashi perfected MS and Kabuto obtained SM" is bullshit. Who said it? Jiraiya, one who has been far from the village from a long, long time; so he couldn't know anything about Kakashi's strength level in that moment, and even less about Kabuto's level. Also probably Jiraiya was just trying to save Naruto's ass making him freeze hyping Kabuto's strength. Also who said it? Orochimaru, one who has been far from the village from a long, long time; so he couldn't know anything about Kakashi's strength level in that moment too. Also, if you compare part 1 Kakashi's feats and part 1 Kabuto's feats, Kakashi rapes him. He is faster, has better reflexes, is physically stronger, has better taijutsu, better genjutsu, better ninjutsu. Not to mention that in two times, one time Kabuto prepared the hell out just to escape from Kakashi, who didn't even uncover his Sharingan; another Kakashi showed great confidence and willingness to fight him, while Kabuto... pretty much run away. Part 1 Kabuto doesn't feel he can take on part 1 Kakashi, getting stomped in spite of favorable conditions *(1)* by Kakashi who isn't even using the Sharingan *(2)*, he has to run away, and runs away again from him even if Kakashi taunts him *()*. 

By portrayal Kabuto himself, in spite of being an arrogant guy, doesn't feel to challenge Kakashi. By feats, part 1 Kakashi is much faster and better in CQC, adds also Sharingan precognition and possibly the 1st Gate. Kabuto also has no feats to stand against Kakashi's Sharingan genjutsu that negged Zabuza, was enough for Itachi to willingly damage his eye sight by using the Mangekyo's Tsukuyomi instead of a 3T genjutsu, and made Gai create a whole new fighting style to avoid to be caught in it. He can use Sharingan + Raikiri dash, maybe with a Kage Bunshin feint, or Rasengan, he can also use powerful Suiton ninjutsu like Daibafuku and Suiryodan, or defend with Suijinheki and then fry Kabuto flowing Raikiri in the water all around. Raikiri kills Kabuto so his medical skills are basically useless, he can't heal. Kakashi wins mid diff at the very very worst. 



Icegaze said:


> Inb4 Kakashj uses sharingan genjufsu to neg
> Or raiton bunshin feint . Or simply throws a kunai in his face
> 
> Kakashi wins though lol



Part 1 Kakashi isn't able to use Raiton Kage Bunshin.


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## Grimsley (Aug 11, 2015)

kAButo wins. regen will catch him off guard and scalps will quickly make mince meat out of kakashi


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2015)

Orochimaru was the one who said it raikiri
Though why the long post 
We all know what u would say and most agree 
Keep it short


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## Ghost (Aug 11, 2015)

jackieshann said:


> kAButo wins. regen will catch him off guard and scalps will quickly make mince meat out of kakashi



 

Kabuto is not regenerating after taking a Raikiri through his torso or head.

Kakashi is literally better in every physical stat and has the Sharingan on top of it. Kabuto has no chance to beat Kakashi in CQC.

Your Tsunade wanking is twisted.


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## Bonly (Aug 11, 2015)

Could go either way prolly both Jiraiya and Orochi said they were about the same level and after Kakashi had a short meeting with Kabuto during the Chunin exams Kakashi himself thought his current state wasn't enough. So the fight would prolly be close with Kabuto's round about way of fighting and his solider pills and healing and what not he should be able to fight for a while which could go either way depending on how the battle plays out.


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2015)

Nope kakashi counter blitz like he always does
Right before he neg diffs with sharingan genjutsu

Kishi was lying kakashi is far above kabuto


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 11, 2015)

Yea Kakashi  is way above the guy who put the beat down on a sannin.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 11, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Could go either way prolly both Jiraiya and Orochi said they were about the same level and after Kakashi had a short meeting with Kabuto during the Chunin exams Kakashi himself thought his current state wasn't enough.


Yeah and after that Kakashi went to train and get back in shape. DB shows his growth in Taijutsu and Speed(And Intelligence/Knowledge for some reason).

Kabuto needs to rig the battlefield for this fight to become 50/50 imo. A good chunk of his abilities is dead bodies manipulation+surgical tricks. In a proper battle like this one he is at a disadvantage - as he himself admits when facing Kakashi the second time(before running away).


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2015)

He didn't wank kakashi to copy his jutsu


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## Ghost (Aug 11, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Yea Kakashi  is way above the guy who put the beat down on a sannin.



Implying Kakashi wouldn't stomp rusty hemophobic Tsunade.


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## Bonly (Aug 11, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Yeah and after that Kakashi went to train and get back in shape. DB shows his growth in Taijutsu and Speed(And Intelligence/Knowledge for some reason).



He sure did but so did Kabuto which was also shown in the DB as his Taijutsu(which went from 2.5 to 3.5) and his Ninjutsu stat and his handseal stat increased as well.


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## Amol (Aug 11, 2015)

Manga says that they both were equals, multiple times . There portrayal and feats matches too.
Now I am aware that a retarded fanboy mind tends to ignore canon to worship his  fictional character  God.
Hence anybody saying anything about this fight being anything other than a very High diff one should be just consider a gone case and should be ignored .
Listening madman's ramblings is not good for health.
This fight can go either way , extreme diff.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 11, 2015)

They're said to be equals but after how Kakashi engaged Itachi/Kisame, he'll have the upper-hand in ninjutsu and taijutsu.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 11, 2015)

Kakashi should win in a straight fight, but Kabuto doesn't give straight fights.

Except right here where you told him to.


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## David (Aug 11, 2015)

They're on about the same level.

- Orochimaru said it, Jiraiya said it, Kakashi implied it at the hospital.

- Kakashi has the edge in CQC and speed, and his general ability is augmented by the Sharingan.

- Both are very smart fighters, but I would say that Kabuto is only the slightest bit trickier (this is debatable and in any case their difference in ability here is so small it most likely wouldn't make a difference) judging by what happened at the hospital with the ANBU, although any advantage would be cancelled out by Kakashi's Sharingan.

- Kakashi has a greater variety of jutsu and can open a Gate as a last resort (he likely wouldn't use it early on because of his low P1 stamina),  Kabuto is excellent at medical ninjutsu (both offensively and regeneration-wise).  Kakashi has Raikiri and Kabuto has his chakra scalpel.

- I would say that Kabuto would last longer in your average fight, as he has access to soldier pills while P1 Kakashi had some trouble fighting with his Sharingan for too long a time and his techniques tend to take more chakra than Kabuto's on average (except when Kabuto relies on his super healing [e.g. against Naruto's Rasengan).  So if it did come down to a really, really, really drawn out fight, Kabuto would have the advantage until Kakashi gets some Raikiris in and forces him to use some seriously chakra-emptying rapid-healing.

I would guess that, given everything put together, the fight would end with Kakashi having several organs chakra scalpel'd, and Kabuto with several Raikiri punctures straight through his body.

It's at least a high difficulty fight, going either way.


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## thechickensage (Aug 12, 2015)

Has Kakashi actually opened a gate on panel?  

Never in combat, though, right?


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## David (Aug 12, 2015)

He saves his inner gate for rock climbing.  If Kabuto uses a Doton, Kakashi will be able to climb it. 

----

Regarding using it in combat, there are usually instances in a fight where the fighters are scoping each other out so I don't see why Kakashi wouldn't be able to use it during the fight (although he might not be able to use it in an intensive situation if it requires him to take a moment or more to focus).


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## Richard Lionheart (Aug 12, 2015)

It will be a draw. Kakashi lands a Raikiri and Kabuto uses regeneration and a Chakra Scalpel to counterattack. A few seconds later both will collapse and die of internal damage.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 12, 2015)

Kabuto wins if the goal is to run away from the opponent.


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## Ghost (Aug 12, 2015)

Legendary Pervert said:


> It will be a draw. Kakashi lands a Raikiri and Kabuto uses regeneration and a Chakra Scalpel to counterattack. A few seconds later both will collapse and die of internal damage.



Because Kabuto totally sprung up after taking Naruto's Rasengan.


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## Sorin (Aug 12, 2015)

Kakashi wins mid difficulty. Faster + sharingan precog. More versatile, same cunningness and inteligence as Kabuto but with more tools at his disposal. He ought to overwhelm Kabuto in the end.


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## Santoryu (Aug 13, 2015)

They were cited to be comparable in part 1 (albeit the Sannin were guesstimating), that doesn't necessarily mean the fight would be 50/50. As already stated, a one eyed Kakashi outmaneuvered Kabuto despite being *out of shape*; we visibly see Kakashi training to get back into shape.

Raikiri ends it.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 13, 2015)

I basically agree with what _David_ said, except I don't think it would take _several_ scalpels or Raikiris landing.



Xillia said:


> As already stated, a one eyed Kakashi outmaneuvered Kabuto despite being *out of shape*



That was a corpse, not Kabuto.

_Kabuto_ outmaneuvered _Kakashi_, or he wouldn't have escaped.


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## Santoryu (Aug 13, 2015)

You're right, my mistake. Though Kabuto's ability to escape the area hinged on him having preparation time. Kakashi, in the heat of the moment, still out planned him by starting out with a clone placed outside of the hall.


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 13, 2015)

Kabuto is skilled, but Kakashi is above him in combat prowess. His sneaky tricks won't be nearly as effective here as it was against Tsunade and Shizune because his opponent is just as intelligent as he is, on top of having the sharingan to detect doton and not having a crippling phobia of blood.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 13, 2015)

Hence what I said.  Kakashi will win in a straight up fight with no prep, if Kabuto has to engage.  Kabuto can equal or surpass him with knowledge and prep, or if he's able to escape and reestablish on his own terms.  Which is possible for him to do.  That second fight will likely be in Kabuto's favor, if Kakashi burned up his precious stamina unsuccessfully in the first attack.

*Summary:*
Kakashi gets weaker the longer a fight drags on, while Kabuto gains more knowledge and opportunity, and benefits more from the pre-game.  So the fight can be 60-40, 50-50, or 40-60 depending on circumstances and condition.  Hence, they're _roughly_ equivalent, although different.  Kakashi is leagues cooler.


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## Kai (Aug 13, 2015)

Kakashi's stamina is almost certainly a factor when Kakashi and Kabuto were compared to be relatively equal. Let's not neglect that. Kabuto didn't need prep to be on Kakashi's level — Kakashi's "current" state wasn't enough to handle Kabuto who had preparation.


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## Mercurial (Aug 13, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Hence what I said.  Kakashi will win in a straight up fight with no prep, if Kabuto has to engage.  Kabuto can equal or surpass him with knowledge and prep, or if he's able to escape and reestablish on his own terms.  Which is possible for him to do.  That second fight will likely be in Kabuto's favor, if Kakashi burned up his precious stamina unsuccessfully in the first attack.
> 
> *Summary:*
> Kakashi gets weaker the longer a fight drags on, while Kabuto gains more knowledge and opportunity, and benefits more from the pre-game.  So the fight can be 60-40, 50-50, or 40-60 depending on circumstances and condition.  Hence, they're _roughly_ equivalent, although different.  Kakashi is leagues cooler.



Just tell me how Kabuto dodges Kakashi feinting him with a Kage Bunshin and silent blitzing him or dashing against him with Raikiri, when part 1 Kakashi was able to exchange clone feints at Itachi's level of speed and skill, is much faster than him, has Sharingan precognition (that helps slower people easily dodge and land hit on faster people; so imagine when someone faster and blessed with Sharingan is attacking slower people) is much more skilled than him in taijutsu. Kabuto also hasn't anything that lets him parry Raikiri or stop Kakashi dashing to him, and his medical ninjutsu can't let him tank is heart being completely destroyed by Kakashi's thrust, or his head being cut (not that there is any medical ninjutsu that lets you survive decapitation). I'll tell you, he can't do anything, he gets killed very quickly. 

The fact that two people stated that part 1 Kakashi and part 1 Kabuto were on similar levels doesn't mean shit when one was far from the village from years and didn't know shit about both Kabuto and Kakashi and the other knew Kabuto but didn't know shit about Kakashi (only hype probably) and isn't also a good judge of people's power levels, as he loves to get trashed by people he thought he could defeat. Kabuto can't face Kakashi who is much faster than him, has much better taijutsu than him, has powerful Suiton ninjutsu like Daibafuku and Suiryodan that Kabuto can't handle as far as we know, is a more skilled Doton user than Kabuto himself is, has Sharingan precognition and Sharingan genjutsu, can quickly murder him with Raikiri that Kabuto's regeneration can't save him from and that Kakashi being faster, having Sharingan precognition and clone feints that let him hold his own against 3T Itachi better than Hebi Sasuke (Sasuke wasn't able to even tell that Itachi made a clone while part 1 Kakashi could notice that Itachi made a clone and even understand who was the true Itachi and who was the clone, and quickly create a clone and swap with it to counter Itachi's jutsu).

The fight simply isn't going to drag on if Kabuto hasn't prepped everything from the start, he prepared a full detailed situation just to run away from a Kakashi who didn't even uncover his Sharingan and was able to physically outperform him even if having to protect Sasuke, with Kabuto himself noticing how that would have hindered Kakashi. Kabuto himself admitted it was better for him to run away instead of fighting Kakashi, and we know that Kabuto is an arrogant guy, so if he ran away he had his reasons. What you said is true in case of a very long and dragged fight where Kabuto prepared from the beginning, but the fact is that by feats and portrayal the fight is ending very quickly with part 1 Kakashi kicking Kabuto's ass and piercing his heart.



Kai said:


> Kakashi's stamina is almost certainly a factor when Kakashi and Kabuto were compared to be relatively equal. Let's not neglect that. Kabuto didn't need prep to be on Kakashi's level ? Kakashi's "current" state wasn't enough to handle Kabuto who had preparation.



Yeah because part 1 Kabuto is a stamina monster compared to part 1 Kakashi. A comparison made by people who don't know both the ones they are comparing has no value, especially when feats and portrayal clearly disprove that. By feats Kakashi kills Kabuto quickly, if you don't tell me how Kabuto avoids Kakashi's Raikiri dash when Kakashi is much faster and has Sharingan precognition on top of that too, when Kabuto can't parry the thrust, can't stop Kakashi and can't heal from Raikiri, or if you don't tell me how Kabuto avoids to get mindraped by Kakashi's Sharingan, or if you don't tell me how he avoids to get outperformed by a Kage Bunshin feint and getting his head cut off or his heart pierced. By portrayal Kabuto even with a situation that was going to hinder Kakashi (as Kabuto himself noted) prepared everything just to escape from him, and barely made it. The second time, Kakashi was completely confident that he would have stomped Kabuto, and Kabuto, someone who is an arrogant guy who thinks that fighting Jiraiya could have been exciting and interesting, decided to run away admitting that it wasn't a good thing to fight him.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 13, 2015)

Soldier pills.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 13, 2015)

Argument about character statements being false because "they can't know for certain" is incredibly dumb. Kishimoto made Sannin state Kakashi=Kabuto for us, readers. Kabuto was a wildcard who hid his abilities. Kishimoto then revealed through Oro that he is in fact as good as Kakashi. Later reinforced by Kabuto impressing Kakashi with his abilities and escaping. Later reinforced by Jiraiya(another character that often just "knows" stuff for plot purposes) stating the same thing. And reinforcing it again by making Kabuto fight Tsunade - a top tier at that time. You have two clear statements, a skirmish won by Kabuto and a good fight vs a character superior to Kakashi. And just one statement from Kabuto about him not wanting to fight Kakashi in the open - which is consistent with both characters' fighting style and intelligence.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 13, 2015)

Alex Payne, on the other hand, is not incredibly dumb and we should listen to his arguments and statements.


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## Mercurial (Aug 13, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Soldier pills.



Soldier pills would make Kabuto, who is far slower than Kakashi, not only easily as fast as him but even that much faster than him that he could dodge Kakashi's thrust even if Kakashi has Sharingan precognition too? Since even fodder genin Kiba had them, I wonder why no one uses them, they are basically a sort of free KCM 



Alex Payne said:


> Argument about character statements being false because "they can't know for certain" is incredibly dumb. Kishimoto made Sannin state Kakashi=Kabuto for us, readers. Kabuto was a wildcard who hid his abilities. Kishimoto then revealed through Oro that he is in fact as good as Kakashi. Later reinforced by Kabuto impressing Kakashi with his abilities and escaping. Later reinforced by Jiraiya(another character that often just "knows" stuff for plot purposes) stating the same thing. And reinforcing it again by making Kabuto fight Tsunade - a top tier at that time. You have two clear statements, a skirmish won by Kabuto and a good fight vs a character superior to Kakashi. And just one statement from Kabuto about him not wanting to fight Kakashi in the open - which is consistent with both characters' fighting style and intelligence.



It's not dumb. How I can state that you are better or worse than someone if I don't know anything about you, or about both you and this other person, seriously, what is it, try and guess? Not to mention how bad is Orochimaru in gauging people's power level, lol.

Rusty Tsunade would get stomped by part 1 Kakashi, especially shape regained part 1 Kakashi who was keeping up with Itachi (with Itachi that willingly ruined his eyesight to beat him, he needed MS to defeat him, Itachi would murk Tsunade with 3T casually, especially rusty Tsunade), recognized as a threat for Kisame. Sharingan genjutsu, Kage Bunshin feint + Raikiri assassination, speed + Sharingan precognition + Raikiri. Not dying by kusanagi piercing the heart is not equal to not dying by Kakashi's hand completely destroying the heart, the heart pierced is not the same thing of a hole instead of the heart. Not to mention that Kakashi knows that she is the most famed medical ninjutsu so won't be caught off guard, with Sharingan precognition too, and he could cut her head off in first place anyway.

Yeah, and he also drew Kakashi having much better feats and Kabuto, in spite of his usually arrogant behaviour, running away from him when Kakashi was challenging him. With all the prep he could plus a favourable situation (for his own admission) the best Kabuto could obtain was running away from Kakashi, actually the best that even Kabuto himself looked for, and this is the same person who openly says that fighing Jiraiya would be exciting and that he isn't taking Tsunade seriously nor fighting her with intent to kill.


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## Kai (Aug 13, 2015)

Thinking Kakashi can end shinobi like Kabuto or Tsunade before he gets in a state of chakra exhaustion is quite the imagination.

Kabuto has soldier pills; Tsunade has medical ninjutsu. They can play with Kakashi all day long. Before Kakashi upped his stamina game, he always had to end things relatively quickly, and that's just impossible for him against someone like Kabuto.

He and Kabuto are equal (as stated), with Kakashi possibly winning at the risk of expending all of his chakra. There is absolutely no way he beats Tsunade during Part 1.


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## Mercurial (Aug 13, 2015)

Kai said:


> Thinking Kakashi can end shinobi like Kabuto or Tsunade before he gets in a state of chakra exhaustion is quite the imagination.
> 
> Kabuto has soldier pills; Tsunade has medical ninjutsu. They can play with Kakashi all day long. Before Kakashi upped his stamina game, he always had to end things relatively quickly, and that's just impossible for him against someone like Kabuto.
> 
> He and Kabuto are equal (as stated), with Kakashi possibly winning at the risk of expending all of his chakra. There is absolutely no way he beats Tsunade during Part 1.



Prove me that soldier pills allow Kabuto a boost so wide that from a lot slower than Kakashi he becomes so much faster than him that he can dodge his dashes even with Kakashi having Sharingan precognition, and even if Kakashi can casually Kage Bunshin feint him.

Yeah, a statement made from people who knew only one of the two (and are very bad judge of other people's power levels) or who didn't know shit about any of the two. Very reliable. Not to mention, need I to remember how many times people stated things and the facts were actually really different? By feats Kakashi is able to outperform and defeat Kabuto and without that much trouble, by hype/portrayal Kabuto, in spite of an usual arrogan behaviour, runs away when Kakashi challenges him.

There is absolutely no reason to think this. Neither hype nor feats.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 13, 2015)

Kai said:


> Kakashi's stamina is almost certainly a factor when Kakashi and Kabuto were compared to be relatively equal. Let's not neglect that. Kabuto didn't need prep to be on Kakashi's level ? Kakashi's "current" state wasn't enough to handle Kabuto who had preparation.



If "handling" is another way of saying "running away". Kabuto wouldn't have bolted so quickly if he thought he could take on Kakashi.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 13, 2015)

Kabuto was unprepared for Kakashi, and had different objectives that didn't involve fighting Kakashi.  It wouldn't have benefited him if he won, and the chance that he would lose was too high to take the fight on a whim, while stalemating with Kakashi in a light bout would just result in his jutsu being stolen.  That would screw him over if he ever had to face Kakashi for real at a later time and date, so really, leaving was just the smartest option.  It doesn't mean he'd have been definitely murdered.


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## Kai (Aug 13, 2015)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> If "handling" is another way of saying "running away". Kabuto wouldn't have bolted so quickly if he thought he could take on Kakashi.


"Let's ignore Kakashi's thoughts, who was the one actually illustrated as being concerned about his own strength relative to the event that just occurred."

Kabuto was already on Kakashi's level. Kabuto with preparation completely outwitted Kakashi.


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## Trojan (Aug 13, 2015)

Part 1 Kakashi/Kabuto are on the same level as stated by Oro and Jiraiya IIRC.

It can go either way depending on who plays his cards better...
According the the 1st Databook, Kabuto is actually smarter than Kakashi, so the odds are
he may play his cards better...


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 13, 2015)

Kai said:


> "Let's ignore Kakashi's thoughts, who was the one actually illustrated as being concerned about his own strength relative to the event that just occurred."
> 
> Kabuto was already on Kakashi's level. Kabuto with preparation completely outwitted Kakashi.



Yeah... concerned that he let him *get away*.

Outwitted him... in order to *run away*.

Neither of those things have any real significance if Kabuto is forced to _FIGHT_ Kakashi.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 13, 2015)

The reason Kakashi is concerned about _his current strength_ is because Kakashi's remark is supposed to be the second in a _series_ _of_ _three_ claims by three different people which more or less place Kabuto right alongside him _in strength_.

Kabuto easily killing the Anbu Kakashi had stationed at the hospital room and then even using them against Kakashi is simply evidence of what Orochimaru observed in the chapter before, and Kakashi picked up on it.

So yes, it is significant if Kabuto is forced to fight Kakashi.


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## Sorin (Aug 13, 2015)

Kakashi would never be put in a position to be restrained and take a rasengan from part 1 Naruto. Never. So yeah they should be about equal.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 13, 2015)

Neither would Shizune, or rusty Tsunade, or even those Anbu for that matter. Or Hayate, whoever.

Surprise PIS is strong enough to wreck Kakashi, too.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 14, 2015)

Even during the rasengan incident, that was portrayed as something that would happen maybe once in a thousand years.  The moral being never give up, because you can still get lucky.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 14, 2015)

Eh. I think Kabuto was at Kakashi's level, but Kabuto's "level," like Tsunade's level, was more about the entire package and not entirely combat-focused. Kakashi would school him in direct combat.

And really, the Sannin probably lumped Kabuto and Kakashi into the "Elite Jonin" category like we do, which would include Zabuza, Asuma, etc. It doesn't mean it's a 50/50 match.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 14, 2015)

I have never heard anyone say, "That guy's as strong as Asuma!"  Except on NF, and it's more of an insult.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 14, 2015)

Kabuto being unable to kill Orochimaru and on a level Naruto had no business getting involved in a fight with are results of him being "about as strong as Kakashi" according to Orochimaru and "having the same power as Kakashi" according to Jiraiya.

They're referring to combat.


But it is true that being similarly strong doesn't necessarily mean it's a 50-50 match.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 14, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I have never heard anyone say, "That guy's as strong as Asuma!"  Except on NF, and it's more of an insult.



I think Asuma's a BAMF that'd beat Wave Arc Kakashi and part 1 Kabuto.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 14, 2015)

I forgot the special chibi gaiden chapter said he was an elite jonin.  Right after it said Sakura was elite since birth.  They very suddenly drug the name of elite jonin through the mud of fodder.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 14, 2015)

Sakura blitzed Kaguya, and her shunshin is therefore faster than Rinnegan Sasuke's Super-Hiraishin. Plus she has the best smashing feat in the manga. It doesn't get much more leet than that.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 14, 2015)

It showed a picture of Part I Sakura.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 14, 2015)

Just like Sasuke, the elite power was locked inside her all along.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 14, 2015)

I mis-remembered.



I think I'm confusing the parent's titles for the childrens. It came on the heels of stretchy Gin saying Konohamaru's parents were ELITE ANBU JONIN.

I just don't know how to read these new fangled chapters.  I'm old, and can't understand things after radio.


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## Thunder (Aug 14, 2015)

She was born a crybaby.


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## Mercurial (Aug 14, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Kabuto being unable to kill Orochimaru and on a level Naruto had no business getting involved in a fight with are results of him being "about as strong as Kakashi" according to Orochimaru and "having the same power as Kakashi" according to Jiraiya.
> 
> They're referring to combat.
> 
> ...



So Jiraiya and Suigetsu are on the same level, since both are unable to kill Obito and on a level that Konohamaru has no business getting involved in a fight 

Guesstimates made by people who don't know anything to even guess in first place or by are very bad judgers or power levels, that's good.

As for combat, Kabuto with all the prep and the advantages he could, did everything he could just to impress Kakashi and run away from him. When Kakashi challenged him, he decided to run away, in spite of an usually arrogant behaviour. Kakashi also seems far more impressive by feats and able to counter most Kabuto can do while Kabuto isn't able to counter what Kakashi can do. But they are equals or almost equals. Interesting.



FlamingRain said:


> The reason Kakashi is concerned about _his current strength_ is because Kakashi's remark is supposed to be the second in a _series_ _of_ _three_ claims by three different people which more or less place Kabuto right alongside him _in strength_.
> 
> Kabuto easily killing the Anbu Kakashi had stationed at the hospital room and then even using them against Kakashi is simply evidence of what Orochimaru observed in the chapter before, and Kakashi picked up on it.
> 
> So yes, it is significant if Kabuto is forced to fight Kakashi.



Kabuto deciding to run away from Kakashi everytime he faces him, even if he is challenged, is even more significant.

Kakashi was just remarking as with Orochimaru already being more powerful than he was, if he also had subordinates as powerful as Kabuto, he definitely needed to get his shape back as best and as quickly as possible.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Kabuto was unprepared for Kakashi, and had different objectives that didn't involve fighting Kakashi.
> 
> It wouldn't have benefited him if he won
> 
> ...



That sounds like a great excuse. And Kabuto was completely prepared, he prepared everything... to run away. And had a favorable situation with Kakashi being hindered by having to protect Sasuke at the same time, as Kabuto himself remembered to Kakashi.

Oh yeah, killing the best shinobi of the opponent side, yeah, I mean, it would have been a very bad thing.

So he wasn't at a level comparable to Kakashi's. Plain and simple.

Do you think that real equals would be portrayed like that? Naruto and Sasuke, Madara and Hashirama, Gai and Kakashi etc? Come on. There's no need to grasp at a statement made by people who don't have even the necessary knowledge to do a proper statement.


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## Santoryu (Aug 14, 2015)

End of part 1 Kakashi> Out of shape Kakashi.


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## Sorin (Aug 14, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Neither would Shizune, or rusty Tsunade, or even those Anbu for that matter. Or Hayate, whoever.
> 
> *Surprise PIS* is strong enough to wreck Kakashi, too.



Nice argument. I'm totally convinced. Art of PIS beats Kakashi. Flawless.

Yeah please show to me when Kakashi was struck with that kind of PIS and maybe i'll consider as a valid argument. Until then that's a nice excuse you got going there. 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Even during the rasengan incident, that was portrayed as something that would happen maybe once in a thousand years.  The moral being never give up, because you can still get lucky.



Yeah, that's more of the same as FlamingRain's argument. The moral is nice and all but it did happen. Kabuto got decked for a while by part 1 Naruto. Underestimation and PIS are not arguments in this instance. If you use them you have to show me that Kakashi would be subject to this kind of PIS where a genin would land a decisive blow on him.  I mean it must've happened sometime during the manga, right? After all "surprise PIS is strong enough to wreck Kakashi, too".

Meanwhile only Naruto can surpass Minato. Stated multiple times. 

Itachi can only be beaten by someone welding sharingan.

Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama.

Etc. 

Kakashi equal to Kabuto is one of those hype statements. He happened to be relevant for an arc in Part 1 and Kishi decided to throw him a bone. In no shape or form was any of his feats equal to Part 1 Kakashi. I mean not even close. Get this, Kakashi fended off Kisame and traded blows with Itachi for a while, while Kabuto took advantage of a rusty's person's phobia to even stand a lick of a chance. He was still blitzed by said person lol.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 14, 2015)

Kabuto casually KOd the whole stadium of genin/chunin with one move. Some of his medical moves were above _Prime_ Tsunade. He spent a massive amount of time in Konoha in front of Jonins/Hokage while hiding his true abilities and goals, preparing for the Invasion. Without a single suspicion. Fights soon-to-be Godaime Hokage and holds his own even before using her phobia. Can still treat early Part 2 Naruto's attack like trash.

If that's not enough to get him on P1 Kakashi's general level then I don't know what is.


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## Reznor (Aug 14, 2015)

End of series or later clearly goes to Kabuto


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

Sorin said:


> Meanwhile only Naruto can surpass Minato. Stated multiple times.
> .



I am weak. 



but you're correct, sir! You need Minato's blood to surpass Minato.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 14, 2015)

Sorin said:


> Nice argument. I'm totally convinced. Art of PIS beats Kakashi. Flawless.
> 
> Yeah please show to me when Kakashi was struck with that kind of PIS and maybe i'll consider as a valid argument. Until then that's a nice excuse you got going there.



If Kakashi can let beginning of series Sasuke actually touch the bells then yes surprise PIS _is_ strong enough to wreck him just like it did Kabuto against post-Chūnin Exam Naruto.

Naruto still would have died, too, while Kabuto survived the surprise.


The Naruto-Kabuto incident is a _sorry_ excuse _you've_ got going to try and disregard three observations that Kabuto is on the same level as Kakashi, considering that we could take exactly what you said and replace the name "Kakashi" with the names "Hayate", "Shizune", "Tsunade" and it'd be just as valid.

Actually even _more_ valid because canonically Naruto couldn't even touch a rusty _and drunk_ Tsunade only using her finger.


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## Reznor (Aug 14, 2015)

Kakashi with no Sharigan, his one eye and one of his arms on his book, not attacking and allowing CQC range got tagged by Sasuke.

That's not that upsetting.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 14, 2015)

Um...let's look back at that incident again, shall we? _(1)_ _(2)_ _(3)_

There was no book reading. There was plenty surprise, though. That's why the bells got touched.

I didn't say it was upsetting. My point is that it could happen to Kakashi, too.


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## Mercurial (Aug 14, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Um...let's look back at that incident again, shall we? _(1)_ _(2)_ _(3)_
> 
> There was no book reading. There was plenty surprise, though. That's why the bells got touched.
> 
> I didn't say it was upsetting. My point is that it could happen to Kakashi, too.



Or not.



No Sharingan Kakashi casually blitzes through Naruto vs Sharingan Sasuke's Rasengan vs Chidori clash.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 14, 2015)

You know that just proves my point.

_Like_ _this_ _does_.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 14, 2015)

Naruto's element of surprise and guts beat Kiba.

Naruto's element of surprise and guts beat Neji.

Naruto's element of surprise and guts beat Gaara.

Naruto's element of surprise and guts beat Kakuzu.

Naruto's element of surprise and guts beat Deva.

It's what allowed he and Sasuke, two genins, to make Zabuza release Kakashi from his water prison.  

Surprise surprise, it happened to Kabuto.


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## Reznor (Aug 14, 2015)

I guess I see your point, but calling that "PIS" is weird though. Kakashi was slacking intentionally. His goal wasn't to own his new genin.


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## Reznor (Aug 14, 2015)

Naruto's feats are inconsistent, by nature of both his abilities and plot. You can't really use him as a benchmark for anything.


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## Mercurial (Aug 14, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> You know that just proves my point.
> 
> _Like_ _this_ _does_.



Not at all. Kakashi would have just lolblitzed Naruto, while Kabuto wasn't able to do that. Outperform with ease, yes (and then being caught by surprise, but in the end, caught, something Naruto wouldn't have ever be able to do that to Kakashi, a thousand times faster and better in taijutsu, who would have clone feinted him or mindraped with the Sharingan; Kabuto wasn't even able to Kawarimi no jutsu away), but not casually blitz.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 14, 2015)

What makes it stupid is that Kabuto recognized this tendency in Naruto, when he told the tracking squad to be wary of Naruto during the invasion arc, when they said sending a squad of chunin and a jonin to chase after a genin squad was a waste of resources.


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Naruto's feats are inconsistent, by nature of both his abilities and plot. You can't really use him as a benchmark for anything.



How is that different than any character at all? :amazed


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 14, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Naruto's feats are inconsistent, by nature of both his abilities and plot. You can't really use him as a benchmark for anything.



Precisely why you can't say Kabuto sucks because Naruto hit him.

Or why you can say that Kakashi's probably not immune from getting the same treatment just because he's better than Naruto.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> How is that different than any character at all? :amazed



Naruto is an egregious offender.  His character and story in part one is based around the upset.  

Most other characters are more consistent through most of the story.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 14, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Not at all. Kakashi would have just lolblitzed Naruto, while Kabuto wasn't able to do that.



_Anybody_ who could kill several Anbu Black Ops with ease could lolblitz Naruto.

Kabuto'd have _already_ _beaten_ _him_ well before it ever got to the hand-stabbing and grabbing part _if he'd actually felt like it_.

What happened to Kabuto with Naruto is hardly any different than what happened to Kakashi with Sasuke.


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## Reznor (Aug 14, 2015)

Kabuto was repeatedly telling Naruto to stop fighting him. It's clear he wasn't trying to kill Naruto until the end.

Also, Kabuto was more concerned with the other three combatants than Naruto. If he focused on Naruto, he might leave himself open to one of the others. Shizune found an opening. Who knows what might have happened if he went aggressive.

He still messed Naruto up casually, even with an injury. You can't really use that he didn't beat him as well as he "should have". 

How perfectly an easy task is accomplished is a bad benchmark. Who can yell out "42" faster when I say "what's 6 x 7?" isn't a good indication of who the superior mathematician is, just like how fast you can beat up a toddler isn't a good indication of how good of a fighter you are. 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> What makes it stupid is that Kabuto recognized this tendency in Naruto, when he told the tracking squad to be wary of Naruto during the invasion arc, when they said sending a squad of chunin and a jonin to chase after a genin squad was a waste of resources.



Yeah, because it's Naruto's characterization to be underestimated, so that overrode Kabuto's characterization to be cautious and thus not underestimate him.

Another thing: 
Naruto isn't punished heavily for charging in. Lee explicitly doesn't linearly charge since he couldn't see a counter attack coming. Sasuke has the sharingan to allow such manuevers. Naruto just does it without explanation.

In-universe, we never know how careless or how much Kyuubi shit he's using. Or whether we've hit an area that highlights his flaws or highlights the preposterous level of ninja privilege we later found out he had.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 14, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Kabuto casually KOd the whole stadium of genin/chunin with one move. Some of his medical moves were above _Prime_ Tsunade. He spent a massive amount of time in Konoha in front of Jonins/Hokage while hiding his true abilities and goals, preparing for the Invasion. Without a single suspicion. Fights soon-to-be Godaime Hokage and holds his own even before using her phobia. Can still treat early Part 2 Naruto's attack like trash.
> 
> If that's not enough to get him on P1 Kakashi's general level then I don't know what is.



You call that prime Tsunade? A Tsunade that had been gambling and drinking for years instead of fighting?

Also, that move that Kabuto used on the Stadium specifically DIDN'T work on Kakashi. And Kakashi was one of the few people that DID find Kabuto's appearances to be suspicious.

Just saying.


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## Icegaze (Aug 14, 2015)

using genin Naruto to make a point
either would and can neg diff naruto


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## Alex Payne (Aug 14, 2015)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> You call that prime Tsunade? A Tsunade that had been gambling and drinking for years instead of fighting?


Did you read that page? Tsunade compared Kabuto to her younger in-shape self. Stating that he was better.


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## mylastduchess (Aug 14, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Did you read that page? Tsunade compared Kabuto to her younger in-shape self. Stating that he was better.



She only compared his mastery of chakra scapel against hers


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## Alex Payne (Aug 14, 2015)

And that's exactly my point. Kabuto was better than Tsunade in one aspect of Medical Ninjutsu. Tsunade's _specialty_. That's huge indicator. You have all Sannin hyping/praising Kabuto. Someone decisively weaker than Part 1 Kakashi simply wouldn't get the same amount of attention from people of Sannin level.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 14, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I mis-remembered.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But we all know the truth though


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Aug 14, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> But we all know the truth though



Haha, what is your sig from?


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 14, 2015)

I have no idea, TPOW posted and I stole it


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