# Might Gai vs Tsunade [Taijutsu/Kenjutsu Skirmish]



## Jad (Mar 3, 2013)

*Restrictions:* Katsuya, Gated techniques, explosives of any kind, and poison bombs/smoke bombs
*Knowledge:* Full for both
*Distance:* 20 meteres
*Special consideration:*

It's noted that Gai is  in the databook. We've already seen him expertly wield more complex weaponary that is two Nunchuku's. So he starts with a basic Katana (like Sasukes). He also has a scroll like Tentens with any logical weapon he can have access to. Shurikens, Kunai's, Katana's, Large Giant Shurikens, Sickles. But he can't spam it like Tenten at the opponent or use her techniques.

*Tsunade is and able to use her Medical ninjutsu, that also involves her self regeneration.*

*State of mind:* IC but to win
*Location:* Kimimaro vs Lee and Gaara.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 3, 2013)

I'm not sure if Guy would go gates, and I'm not sure if Guy's raw strength can do to her what a kusunagi could not.  Since obviously he's going to swing a lot harder than Oro's twisty neck, but his random blades aren't cut through adamantine diamond strong and sharp either.  I'm also wondering how well the generic weapons are going to hold up in a fight like this.  

Those factors change the match a lot.  

1. A. If he can't cut stuff off, he'll only be doing minor wounds, and that drags the fight on long enough that he could probably get hit, and Tsunade wins.

1. B.  If he goes gates, she will probably outlast him.

2. A.  If he can cut off limbs, and cut through bone, then he can probably do enough damage to make her chakra run out before he gets hit.

2. B.  If he can do that and goes gates, then he may exhaust her before his self damage kicks in, though it'll be a lot closer.  I suppose he should win anyway, though.  His recent gate staying power is pretty good, and he should be able to inflict a lot of damage.

I'm assuming that there are going to be a lot of broken weapons one way or the other.  Guy effectively used two pieces short thick solid steel blocks, linked by a steel chain.  He'd probably want to use pole arms to keep his distance, but those are easily smashed.  Or they'd break on impact at the level he'd be swinging them.  It makes me wonder if his choice in weapons is due more to their ability to keep up with him, rather than favoritism.

One thing he has to watch out for is Tsunade just letting herself get stabbed to get an opening on his wrist, or even to take and claim a weapon, like she did with Madara's Susano swords, because all the weapons in the scroll don't mean much if he loses his hand or fingers.  One thing she has to watch out for is Guy's extra reach.


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## PostNoJutsu (Mar 3, 2013)

I'm going with Tsunade on this one.  

Under the conditions that are set up, you seem to have either explicitly or implicitly removed any possibility of the intent to kill or even permanently maim for that matter. It's a little odd though that Guy would start off the fight with a katana, a weapon not best suited for such fights... but if a ninja turtle can manage, so can Guy.  
Anyway, I just think that in those conditions, Tsunade's a lot better suited to win mainly for one good reason.  This will clearly become a comedic fight.  Unless Guy gets a quick flukey win off a Dynamic Entry, or Tsunade's legendary bad luck comes into play, I just don't see the female losing a comedic fight.


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## Mercurial (Mar 3, 2013)

Guy schooles her so much this isn't even funny,in terms of taijutsu skill they can't even be compared,one is just smashy-smashy,the other is a guy who took away Samehada from Kisame with his legs,and didn't let Obito with Kamui lay a finger on him for the warp trick,not to mention the gap in physical stamina and speed

Guy speedblitzes or outmanouvres her and kill her with the katana,piercing her head or bisecting it


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 3, 2013)

Raikiri19 said:


> Guy schooles her so much this isn't even funny,in terms of taijutsu skill they can't even be compared,one is just smashy-smashy,the other is a guy who took away Samehada from Kisame with his legs,and didn't let Obito with Kamui lay a finger on him for the warp trick,not to mention the gap in physical stamina and speed
> 
> Guy speedblitzes or outmanouvres her and kill her with the katana,piercing her head or bisecting it



As far as I remember, Tsunade also managed to fend off 5 Susano'o Clones used by Uchiha Madara, something that both Gaara and Mei failed to do, and rivalled a fully shrouded Ei in terms of combat performance against the clones - using nothing but her enhanced strength, Taijutsu and of course Byakugou for regeneration.

Base Gai doesn't have shit on Tsunade. Hell, Gai can't even hurt her, even if she doesn't have access to Sozo Saisei and Byakugo. A woman that can survive techniques powerful enough to completely disassemble human bodies and receive only skin surface cuts, should be strong enough to tank Base Gai's Taijutsu.

Tsunade can keep up with Base Ei, who is _at least_ as fast as Base Gai, so no way is Gai blitzing her over here. Hell, Gai couldn't even blitz Shoten Kisame without opening the 6th Gate, and you seriously believe that he could blitz one of the Legendary Sannin in _base_ form? Please get your head out of the toilet, man. Seriously.

Tsunade rapes Gai and teaches him a lesson that he'll never forget. All it takes for Tsunade to murder Gai is one single hit, a single finger tap, as opposed to the guy (no pun intended) probably requiring more than a dozen clean hits just to knock the Godaime Hokage unconscious. The Green Beast is completely outclassed here.

If Tsunade can take on Susano'o clones, in spite of being in a weakened state, I'm pretty sure she can handle Base Gai pretty easily, even if Gai resorts to using his ever-handy nunchaku, and even if she doesn't have access to her medical Ninjutsu. A single hit from her can shatter the beast's weapons and fists alike.

*P.S.* Gai couldn't do a single thing to Obito. Only Kakashi and Naruto managed to damage him during the fight, and Gai was more or less worthless against Obito. Of course he evaded Tobi's S/T jutsu, but only because he had knowledge on it, and Tobi also needed to worry about facing three other top-tier fighters at the time.


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## Magician (Mar 3, 2013)

Tsunade rapes with Byakugo.


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## Bonly (Mar 3, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> As far as I remember, Tsunade also managed to fend off 5 Susano'o Clones used by Uchiha Madara, something that both Gaara and Mei failed to do, and rivalled a fully shrouded Ei in terms of combat performance against the clones - using nothing but her enhanced strength, Taijutsu and of course Byakugou.



Quick question but can you show scans of Tsunade dealing with 5 Susanoo clones at once? As far as I remember most of it was off panel and the only Gaara had 5 clones attack him at once while he saving Mei and A upon which all the clones didn't attack A until after he was put in a genjutsu, so if you can show me her doing more then just hitting one clone then that would be awesome.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 3, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Quick question but can you show scans of Tsunade dealing with 5 Susanoo clones at once? As far as I remember most of it was off panel and the only Gaara had 5 clones attack him at once while he saving Mei and A upon which all the clones didn't attack A until after he was put in a genjutsu, so if you can show me her doing more then just hitting one clone then that would be awesome.



I think you just need to use common sense to be honest. Every one of the Kage had been pitted against five Susano'o clones, so obviously they were all attacking her. The clones that had been fighting Ei and Gaara had been performing combination attacks, there's no reason why they wouldn't have been doing the same with her. Furthermore, the fact that several clones were _re-entering the battlefield_ may suggest she had already knocked them down or batted them away prior to what we saw on-panel.​​​


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## Bonly (Mar 3, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I think you just need to use common sense to be honest. Every one of the Kage had been pitted against five Susano'o clones, so obviously they were all attacking her at once. The fact that several clones were _re-entering the battlefield_ may suggest she had already knocked them down or batted them away prior to what we saw on-panel.​​​



Yes but sadly people don't use common sense all the time. Some people fail to think that any kage at any point in time during the fight could have helped another kage(such as Onoki with A or Gaara and Mei) and possible do a team up or some sorts until they were forced to separate. Some lack the common sense to think that and just assume each kage fought 5 clones the entire time until we get to the part where Mei got punched. Some people lack the common sense to see that only one Susanoo tried to do anything to A until he was put under a genjutsu and then they all attacked, but some lack the common sense(as well as reading comprehension) to see that and say that it took five clones and A being distracted to put A in a genjutsu when it was only one just like some people assume each susanoo clone would attack each kage at once throughout the entire fight. So with the lack of common sense when it comes to certain things, i'd like some proof that she did fend off 5 by herself if one is going to claim such while pointing out others didn't.


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## Empathy (Mar 3, 2013)

The point of Madara saying it's five versus one was for us to assume five _Susanoos_ primarily occupied each Kage. If one Kage aided another, then the remaining five _Susanoos_ shouldn't have sat idly by while they tag-team another five. No one's saying other Kage couldn't have received additional aid when necessary. It's wishful thinking for you assume Tsunade had to have been receiving tremendous help to have survived.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 3, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Yes but sadly people don't use common sense all the time. Some people fail to think that any kage at any point in time during the fight could have helped another kage(such as Onoki with A or Gaara and Mei) and possible do a team up or some sorts until they were forced to separate. Some lack the common sense to think that and just assume each kage fought 5 clones the entire time until we get to the part where Mei got punched. Some people lack the common sense to see that only one Susanoo tried to do anything to A until he was put under a genjutsu and then they all attacked, but some lack the common sense(as well as reading comprehension) to see that and say that it took five clones and A being distracted to put A in a genjutsu when it was only one just like some people assume each susanoo clone would attack each kage at once throughout the entire fight. So with the lack of common sense when it comes to certain things, i'd like some proof that she did fend off 5 by herself if one is going to claim such while pointing out others didn't.





Empathy said:


> The point of Madara saying it's five versus one was for us to assume five _Susanoos_ primarily occupied each Kage. If one Kage aided another, then the remaining five _Susanoos_ shouldn't have sat idly by while they tag-team another five. No one's saying other Kage couldn't have received additional aid when necessary. It's wishful thinking for you assume Tsunade had to have been receiving tremendous help to have survived.



Thanks for saving me time, Empathy.

Also, Bonly, I'd like to point out that as plausible as it is that she may have received support from another Kage at some stage, it would be natural that they would be less concerned about helping/saving her, given that she can instantly regenerate from damage. Indeed, the fact that she had sustained critical injuries against Madara would suggest the other Kage weren't as tenacious in trying to save her as they were with Mei or Ei. 

As for me, I'm not suggesting the other Kage didn't fend off the five Susano'o clones themselves, they all fended off their own respective clones for a while, they just seemed to need each other's aid as the fight dragged on.​​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 3, 2013)

To add to that what Empathy and Godaime said, did you see the distance between their battlefields?  They're not in a position to really aid each other.  

Also, Tsunade had two swords stuck in her at once.  Since each Susano only has one sword, that at least two of them were attacking her at the same time or in rapid succession.  Also, Mizukage was getting combo attacked (One punched her into the other one who was going to sword kill her)  Gaara had multiple sword attacks at once, Raikage got bum rushed when he was open.  

Like Empathy said, the idea that someone was babysitting Tsunade is wishful thinking.


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## Bansai (Mar 4, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> To add to that what Empathy and Godaime said, did you see the distance between their battlefields?  They're not in a position to really aid each other.
> 
> Also, Tsunade had two swords stuck in her at once.  Since each Susano only has one sword, that at least two of them were attacking her at the same time or in rapid succession.  Also, Mizukage was getting combo attacked (One punched her into the other one who was going to sword kill her)  Gaara had multiple sword attacks at once, Raikage got bum rushed when he was open.
> 
> Like Empathy said, the idea that someone was babysitting Tsunade is wishful thinking.


I totally agree. In addition Tsunade was the main character during this scene. She seemed to be the only one who was fighting Madara's clones partly equally. The rest of the Kages didn't actually do that much during these scenes, because none of their jutsus were enough to injure the clones severely.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 4, 2013)

Emporio Ivankov said:


> I totally agree. In addition Tsunade was the main character during this scene. She seemed to be the only one who was fighting Madara's clones partly equally. The rest of the Kages didn't actually do that much during these scenes, because none of their jutsus were enough to injure the clones severely.



Onoki did not only fight his clones equally but saved raikage by covering him in a rock fist and weighing down the 5 susanoo's that were gonna skewer A.

I rank how they were fighting the clones like this

1. Onoki
2. Ay
3. Tsunade
4. Gaara
5. Mei


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## Bansai (Mar 4, 2013)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Onoki did not only fight his clones equally but saved raikage by covering him in a rock fist and weighing down the 5 susanoo's that were gonna skewer A.
> 
> I rank how they were fighting the clones like this
> 
> ...



I don't quite agree, since Onoki's Jinton Jutsu did neither work on Madara nor on the clones. And for some reason I didn't see him using Doton jutsus during this scene either, but I'm not quite sure about that. As for A... did he actually do something in this scene!? The only thing I noticed is that he screamed "Tsunade!" before he was put under a genjutsu.


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## bleakwinter (Mar 4, 2013)

*Tsunade wins (Low Difficulty)*

I'm failing to see a convincing reason why Tsunade would conceivably have any difficulty against Gai under these stipulations, much less actually lose to him. Her noteworthy resilience feats (Such as recovering from a crater-forming bodily impact with the earth (1) and sustaining two massive blades through her innards (2)) clearly support the fact that she could withstand any damage that base Gai could give her even with the extra tools he's been granted. 

The only weapon that Gai has exhibited to possess proficiency with on-panel is the Nunchaku to my knowledge, thus he wouldn't possess the necessary skill with other weapons to cause any noteworthy harm to Tsunade. The databook does indeed state that Gai is highly proficient with weapons. Likewise, the databook also states Tsunade cannot die by any means upon using her regeneration technique . The former statement is a rather good example of why the databooks should only be taken with a grain of salt with regards to some of its ludicrous claims. 

He cannot pummel her to death with his fist, as her regeneration would simply recover all damage. He logistically cannot cause serious harm to her with bladed weapons (As Madara, who is even more skilled with edged weapons, had difficulty doing so). Even more to Gai's disadvantage, his base form does not possess any notable speed feats against relevant characters that suggests he can successively avoid every single one of Tsunade's punches (I implore someone to provide a scan which illustrates otherwise, as I've searched quite extensively) without being struck by a single one. Kisame isn't reputed for his speed either, yet was able to punch Gai quite easily (4). It's simply a matter of time until Tsunade manages to tag him and kill/disable him.


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## LostSelf (Mar 4, 2013)

Why would Gai fail to cut her with a katana? As far as i know, Tsunade is not known for having a durable body like Sandaime Raikage's. She has a lot of pain tolerance and regenerative jutsus.

Is Gai allowed to kill her? or this is just a friendly skirmish?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 4, 2013)

Emporio Ivankov said:


> I don't quite agree, since Onoki's Jinton Jutsu did neither work on Madara nor on the clones. And for some reason I didn't see him using Doton jutsus during this scene either, but I'm not quite sure about that. As for A... did he actually do something in this scene!? The only thing I noticed is that he screamed "Tsunade!" before he was put under a genjutsu.



(4)

The link above shows raikage about to be stabbed to death but then a rock hand starts to cover him.

(4)

Then as you can see in the link above the clones come to a halt and madara even notes he weighted them and saved the raikage.

Also A got captured because he started to worry about tsunade when she was coughing up blood (4).

Yet on the previous page he had a susanoo clone in his hand and was okay fighting (4).

But if think tsunade was doing better then that is you opinion.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 4, 2013)

Emporio Ivankov said:


> I totally agree. In addition Tsunade was the main character during this scene. She seemed to be the only one who was fighting Madara's clones partly equally. The rest of the Kages didn't actually do that much during these scenes, because none of their jutsus were enough to injure the clones severely.



Thanks!

Though I think Onoki actually paralysed the Madaras and susanos with his super heavy weight technique.  You can see the wavy lines around them signalling their inability to move.  It's cool if you didn't see or found it hard to believe, since it was a hard to see detail and a poor translation that called zero attention to it when it came out.



> But if think tsunade was doing better then that is you opinion.



I sort of think Tsunade did slightly better than Ei, only because I know she could actually do damage to Susano without getting Onoki powering up her hits.  Ei's chops previously couldn't really get through Susano, so while he probably would have been fine stalemating them for up to a few days fighting (if not distracted), the clones infinite chakra would outlast him, whereas Tsunade could at least conceivably kill them before she ran out of steam.  I guess that's not even a reflection on their performance, so much as her skills being slightly better suited to the opponent in that scenario.

I also don't really feel right knocking the guy down for getting saved, just because his crush distracted him.


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## Jad (Mar 4, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Why would Gai fail to cut her with a katana? As far as i know, Tsunade is not known for having a durable body like Sandaime Raikage's. She has a lot of pain tolerance and regenerative jutsus.
> 
> Is Gai allowed to kill her? or this is just a friendly skirmish?



To kill, and he can go into Gates. I only restricted his Gated Techniques (Morning Peacock, Ura Renge, Omote Renge, Hirudora). He starts in base and is wielding a Katana akin to Sasuke's, but it's blade is just as normal as a say a Samurai's. His also got full knowledge, both do actually. Restrictions are in the OP.


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## Bonly (Mar 5, 2013)

Empathy said:


> The point of Madara saying it's five versus one was for us to assume five _Susanoos_ primarily occupied each Kage. If one Kage aided another, then the remaining five _Susanoos_ shouldn't have sat idly by while they tag-team another five. No one's saying other Kage couldn't have received additional aid when necessary. It's wishful thinking for you assume Tsunade had to have been receiving tremendous help to have survived.



Well seeing as how 4 Susanoo clones just "sat idly by" until A was in a genjutsu then I wouldn't doubt that if the Kages did do a team up for a short while, a good chuck of the clones would have possibly "sat idlt by" as well for a short time. Also no need to exaggerate, no one said/implied she would need "tremendous help", just that her being saved once or twice off panel is a possibility which seems to avoid people's mind.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Thanks for saving me time, Empathy.
> 
> Also, Bonly, I'd like to point out that as plausible as it is that she may have received support from another Kage at some stage, it would be natural that they would be less concerned about helping/saving her, given that she can instantly regenerate from damage. Indeed, the fact that she had sustained critical injuries against Madara would suggest the other Kage weren't as tenacious in trying to save her as they were with Mei or Ei.
> 
> As for me, I'm not suggesting the other Kage didn't fend off the five Susano'o clones themselves, they all fended off their own respective clones for a while, they just seemed to need each other's aid as the fight dragged on.​​



Thanks for agreeing.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> To add to that what Empathy and Godaime said, did you see the distance between their battlefields?  They're not in a position to really aid each other.



They fought for hours. You can't base whether they were or were not in position to aid each other throughout the fighted based on their distance hours later in the scan above.



> Also, Tsunade had two swords stuck in her at once.  Since each Susano only has one sword, that at least two of them were attacking her at the same time or in rapid succession.



Indeed.



> Also, Mizukage was getting combo attacked (One punched her into the other one who was going to sword kill her)  Gaara had multiple sword attacks at once, Raikage got bum rushed when he was open.
> 
> Like Empathy said, the idea that someone was babysitting Tsunade is wishful thinking.



Not really. If one likes to not think anything negative for Tsunade then sure but when you add in how they were fighting for *hours* and add in all the possibilities that could have happened off panel, someone having to save Tsunade a time or two isn't wishful thinking in the least.


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## LostSelf (Mar 5, 2013)

Jad said:


> To kill, and he can go into Gates. I only restricted his Gated Techniques (Morning Peacock, Ura Renge, Omote Renge, Hirudora). He starts in base and is wielding a Katana akin to Sasuke's, but it's blade is just as normal as a say a Samurai's. His also got full knowledge, both do actually. Restrictions are in the OP.



So Gai has full knowledge, gates and a Katana and he won't behead her?

He will tire out himself because he will say "Hey, It's not IC for me to behead her, so i will tire myself out so she can kill me after i'm tired?"

Am i too crazy or Gai goes gates and cuts her head off?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 5, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> So Gai has full knowledge, gates and a Katana and he won't behead her?
> 
> He will tire out himself because he will say "Hey, It's not IC for me to behead her, so i will tire myself out so she can kill me after i'm tired?"
> 
> Am i too crazy or Gai goes gates and cuts her head off?



Orochimaru's kusunagi couldn't cut Tsunade's shoulder bone or ribs, and it's supposed to be something legendary that slices adamantine Enma skin.  I'm iffy on what a regular katana can do on a hit even if Guy is the one swinging it.

She also fought 5 Madaras for hours on end without getting beheaded, and she was hitting them back.

So depending on how you view kusunagi in relation to the strength of normal metal, and how you rate the actually really good swordsmanship of Madara and his five Susanos clones being unable to behead her 5 v 1, vs Guy's ability to do so on his own, then you may or may not be crazy.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Mar 5, 2013)

Gai is restricted from Hachimon Tonko techniques. Tsunade is restricted from Katsuyu. Unbalanced thread is unbalanced. :/


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 5, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Well seeing as how 4 Susanoo clones just "sat idly by" until A was in a genjutsu then I wouldn't doubt that if the Kages did do a team up for a short while, a good chuck of the clones would have possibly "sat idlt by" as well for a short time. Also no need to exaggerate, no one said/implied she would need "tremendous help", just that her being saved once or twice off panel is a possibility which seems to avoid people's mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The simple fact is that it's extremely unlikely any of them could take the time to aid each other while they had 5 Susano Madara's on them.  Kishi showed us what happens when any of them took their eyes or attention off their own battles.

As soon as Gaara spared any sand to help the Mizukage, he got slammed by five Susano swords, and it was almost game over for them.  

As soon as Ei took his eyes off his own fight for a single moment, he was snared in sharingan genjutsu and almost finished.

The only person who was ever free to help was Onoki, because he had already disposed of his Madaras with the heavy weight technique.  Thus, he was free to help the Raikage without getting penalized.  But he had only recently immobilized his opponents, and he was nearly out of chakra by then.  You can bet that if he had been done sooner, he would have been over to another battlefield to help the other kage put an end to their fights.

The other thing Mei and Gaara showed us is that when two kage got too close, they had to fight ten Madara's at once.  So if one person is struggle or in danger or injured, and someone else comes to help, that kage will have to fight ten Madaras while protecting the other kage, and that's just too much when they can barely handle five while only worrying about their own life.


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## Bansai (Mar 5, 2013)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> 4 Susanoo clones
> 
> The link above shows raikage about to be stabbed to death but then a rock hand starts to cover him.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but how do these scans prove that they fought Madara's clones equally? I don't see them fighting the clones at all. They're protecting each other and worrying about each other, but how is it related to how good they fought the clones? Being able to help each other is a great ability, but it doesn't hurt your opponent either, does it?



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Though I think Onoki actually paralysed the Madaras and susanos with his super heavy weight technique.  You can see the wavy lines around them signalling their inability to move.  It's cool if you didn't see or found it hard to believe, since it was a hard to see detail and a poor translation that called zero attention to it when it came out.



Oh, I didn't actually notice this. Sometimes it's hard to keep up with Kishimoto's drawing style :/
But thanks for telling me.


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## Jad (Mar 5, 2013)

I think you guys are reading way too much into the Madara vs Kages battle. The guy was literally toying around with them. The fact that his Sasunoo's did nothing more than wield their blade around like gigantic apes rather then use a plethora of Madara's arsenal already says how seriously he was taking them. That fact right there should say of Madara's mentality on the fight. He just didn't expect them to at the last second pull a team work maneuver. I don't even believe the Jinchurikii's in the background fighting Gai and Kakashi used their ninjutsu techniques, I also think they were engaging them in acts of close quarters and Jinchurkii related shenanigans (chakara hands/tails).

Plus I highly doubt that someone of Gai's level and caliber, who specializes in , has accuracy to boot (he wasn't looking), massive boulder shattering level of strength, already a master and handler of a more unique and complex weapon is all of a sudden missing Tsunade even when he has *access to Gates*? Even though he is highly proficient in weaponry use? There are different levels of Taijutsu that Gai uses and the cast of Naruto use. You have:

1. The more realistic style of Taijutsu, where you go toe to toe, were really speed isn't the game rather it is skill. Much like you would expect in real life.

2. The style where speed is as much part of Taijutsu than say strength. I'm talking about Rock Lee's speedy zip and line Taijutsu, Ei's run and hit Taijutsu as well as Naruto's. Reason Lee and for example Sasuke don't spam the shit out of it is because it's stamina exhausting. I mean Gai could use a sample of Ura Renge's move and bounce around Tsunade with a Katana at hand in Gated form, that would fall under point 2 style of Taijutsu.

Also if you take a gander at what Genin Lee is capable of, you can see that Gai his master, mentor and teacher is more than able to as well, in which case dodge Tsunade's more linear and basic punches. Note that scan is actual after images, as  as how fast his moving his hands. It doesn't help that Gai was able to avoid Obito's touch when Naruto had trouble by himself a few times but played just about evenly with Itachi's Taijutsu for that small scuffle they had before [1][2]. That showing just helps exemplify Gai's taijutsu prowess and levelheadedness.


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## Bonly (Mar 5, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The simple fact is that it's extremely unlikely any of them could take the time to aid each other while they had 5 Susano Madara's on them.  Kishi showed us what happens when any of them took their eyes or attention off their own battles.



And yet from what we saw Kages were saving/worried about others. Indeed we did see what happen we a kage took their eyes off their own battle, a kage got hit of some kind or another kage saved them and they were successfully able to get away from the clones.



> As soon as Gaara spared any sand to help the Mizukage, he got slammed by five Susano swords, and it was almost game over for them.
> 
> As soon as Ei took his eyes off his own fight for a single moment, he was snared in sharingan genjutsu and almost finished.



Yup and guess what happen to Gaara? He managed to save one kage as well as get to the other kages fine so that they can do their combo attack. And guess what happened to A? He saved by another kage. 



> The only person who was ever free to help was Onoki, because he had already disposed of his Madaras with the heavy weight technique.  Thus, he was free to help the Raikage without getting penalized.  But he had only recently immobilized his opponents, and he was nearly out of chakra by then.  You can bet that if he had been done sooner, he would have been over to another battlefield to help the other kage put an end to their fights.



Im gonna take a wild shot in the dark and say that the Kages actual destroying some of the clones and Madara replacing them never crossed your mind for what happened off panel hun.



> The other thing Mei and Gaara showed us is that when two kage got too close, they had to fight ten Madara's at once.  So if one person is struggle or in danger or injured, and someone else comes to help, that kage will have to fight ten Madaras while protecting the other kage, and that's just too much when they can barely handle five while only worrying about their own life.



Ahh people with this line of think remind me of people saying it took five Susanoo clones to put A in a genjutsu. Just because their was 10 Susanoo clones around them, that doesn't mean they had to 10 Susanoo clones at once.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Mar 5, 2013)

bleakwinter said:


> The only weapon that Gai has exhibited to possess proficiency with on-panel is the Nunchaku to my knowledge, thus he wouldn't possess the necessary skill with other weapons to cause any noteworthy harm to Tsunade. The databook does indeed state that Gai is highly proficient with weapons. Likewise, the databook also states Tsunade cannot die by any means upon using her regeneration technique . The former statement is a rather good example of why the databooks should only be taken with a grain of salt with regards to some of its ludicrous claims.



How does Sozou Sasei invoking a no-limits fallacy in its description somewhat discredit the immensely more reasonable statement that Gai, the embodiment of a superbly skilled shinobi who doesn't utilize genjutsu or ninjutsu, is proficient with weapons?

Unless Gai's entry states he's master of every weapon in existence or some such equivalent hyperbole, aren't we throwing out the baby with the bath water here?

Just my 2 cents,
Kenpachi TZ.


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## LostSelf (Mar 5, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Orochimaru's kusunagi couldn't cut Tsunade's shoulder bone or ribs, and it's supposed to be something legendary that slices adamantine Enma skin.  I'm iffy on what a regular katana can do on a hit even if Guy is the one swinging it.



Orochimaru pierced her easily:

Futon's

And was cutting her easily as well:

Futon's

Now, Oro's Kusanagi is able to cut diamonds and i don't believe Tsunade has a body harder than a diamond. She has not shown to tank cutting attacks (Not being cut). I don't see why Gai, someone who in base easily shatters huge bouldes, can't cut her head off in gates with a katana.



> She also fought 5 Madaras for hours on end without getting beheaded, and she was hitting them back.


Assuming they tried to behead her, and were going serious. Madara would've beheaded her easily if he wanted to. Also, 5 Susano'os toying clones are not comparable to Gated Gai's speed and taijutsu skills and i dare to say power.



> So depending on how you view kusunagi in relation to the strength of normal metal, and how you rate the actually really good swordsmanship of Madara and his five Susanos clones being unable to behead her 5 v 1, vs Guy's ability to do so on his own, then you may or may not be crazy.



Like i said, it's assuming the five Susano'os tried to behead her and knowing that Madara was toying with them. Something that hasn't been done in the manga save by Minato. Not comparable to Gated Gai, who would have no problem hitting her while in gates, though.


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## Rosencrantz (Mar 5, 2013)

Can she use medical ninjutsu or not? It says only taijutsu/kenjutsu skirmish. So I thought that it was implied no ninjutsu. Yet it is not restricted. I thought maybe that it is implied but Katsuya (summoning her is a ninjutsu) is explicitly restricted then maybe she has access to her medical ninjutsu? And when has Gai ever used a sword? 

These questions have to be answered before one can reasonably answer this thread. Gai should go gates from the get-go though no matter what if he wants to win this, medical ninjutsu or no. Now he has a sword so I guess one could make the assumption he would try to behead her at least at some point. Hell without medical ninjutsu he can probably slice her up with 6-7 gates, get her open, and perform the deed. But the act of Gai even having a sword and using it is OOC since he likes to pummel his opponents. I feel like you have to put Gai as OOC in the OP or take away his sword cause it seems contradictory.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 5, 2013)

Piercing=/= cutting.  I can stab a cow with a pen, because physics are on my side.  But there's no way I'm cutting it in half with one.  

*Better example:*  Swords can stab through and pierce metal armor, but they can't slash through it.  (contrary to what Hollywood would have you believe)

Look carefully at her cuts later.  You'll see that while her fleshy meats and fat sacks got slashed, it didn't really cut her bone.  Or rather, not by much, or at least not how you would have expected it to.

 Sasuke kept pace with an opponent

 Sasuke kept pace with an opponent

Bio-mechanically speaking, She wouldn't have been able to lift her left arm in that manner if her shoulder bone and muscle and tendons were sliced in half.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 5, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I sort of think Tsunade did slightly better than Ei, only because I know she could actually do damage to Susano without getting Onoki powering up her hits.  Ei's chops previously couldn't really get through Susano, so while he probably would have been fine stalemating them for up to a few days fighting (if not distracted), the clones infinite chakra would outlast him, whereas Tsunade could at least conceivably kill them before she ran out of steam.  I guess that's not even a reflection on their performance, so much as her skills being slightly better suited to the opponent in that scenario.
> 
> I also don't really feel right knocking the guy down for getting saved, just because his crush distracted him.



Indeed raikage did need help to do any damage to even a ribcage susanoo so at best he must have been keeping the susanoo's from hitting him(with his speed, throwing them around etc). Tsunade on the other hand was literally crushing/smashing them somewhat but taking heavy damage. When i ranked them on how they were fighting i put raikage higher because he was taking less damage while tsunade was taking big damage just to do damage. I was focusing more on survival/efficiency when ranking their performance. 

I do agree and see where you are coming from though. She was fit for busting them up due to her strength and regen allowing her to be reckless. While raikage who is fast but not nearly as strong had to dodge and evade to last. In the longest run she would be better off because she can actually win while raikage would be outlasted like you said.

Honestly in my eyes they were close when i ranked them...like tsunade being 2.9 and raikage being at 3 so i respect your view . If it was based on who could disable their clone i would rank raikage lower than tsunade.

@Empario it seems TPOW explained what i meant by onoki doing better than everyone else so yeah. Also if raikage was doing better than tsunade it was by a small margin so do not think about it too much.


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## LostSelf (Mar 5, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Piercing=/= cutting.  I can stab a cow with a pen, because physics are on my side.  But there's no way I'm cutting it in half with one.
> 
> *Better example:*  Swords can stab through and pierce metal armor, but they can't slash through it.  (contrary to what Hollywood would have you believe)
> 
> ...



Kusanagi pierced and bypassed her torso, if it did this, then Oro chould've easily cut her head off. Also, what implies that Oro was trying to cut her bones? He was slashing her body only. This does not imply that he couldn't.

The cow example, if i got it right, is not comparable. The pen is a bit sharp on the tip, but only in that part. The sword is sharp everywhere save where you hold it, of course. 

Oro not cutting her bones doesn't mean he was trying to and that doesn't mean her body is that durable. I mean, a log cut her body, and that log logicaly has less sharpness than the Kusanagi. And if it did so by brute force, then i'm leaning with Gai in gates doing it, with a sharp Katana and in a smaller part of her body.


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 5, 2013)

The most you can ever glean from the Madara vs. Gokage fight is Tsunade's newfound endurance with Byakugou, and strength capable of breaking Madara's Susanoo ribcage and knocking down V2 Susanoo.

Gated techniques being restricted really hurts Gai here; I believe Seven-Gated Gai would kick the everloving shit out of her even without Hirudora. Add in Byakugou and Gai's attacks become even more ineffectual than they originally were.

Tsunade stomps.


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## Jad (Mar 5, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> Can she use medical ninjutsu or not? It says only taijutsu/kenjutsu skirmish. So I thought that it was implied no ninjutsu. Yet it is not restricted. I thought maybe that it is implied but Katsuya (summoning her is a ninjutsu) is explicitly restricted then maybe she has access to her medical ninjutsu? And when has Gai ever used a sword?
> 
> These questions have to be answered before one can reasonably answer this thread. Gai should go gates from the get-go though no matter what if he wants to win this, medical ninjutsu or no. Now he has a sword so I guess one could make the assumption he would try to behead her at least at some point. Hell without medical ninjutsu he can probably slice her up with 6-7 gates, get her open, and perform the deed. But the act of Gai even having a sword and using it is OOC since he likes to pummel his opponents. I feel like you have to put Gai as OOC in the OP or take away his sword cause it seems contradictory.



Well Gai had no problem using Samehada against Kisame, so Gai uses what resources he has. And yes, Tsunade can use medical ninjutsu, part of Tsunade style when fighting in Taijutsu is her ability to regenerate. So I didn't take that away from her.


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## Rosencrantz (Mar 5, 2013)

Jad said:


> Well Gai had no problem using Samehada against Kisame, so Gai uses what resources he has. And yes, Tsunade can use medical ninjutsu, part of Tsunade style when fighting in Taijutsu is her ability to regenerate. So I didn't take that away from her.


Ah yeah he did do that before his hands got cut up. Still doesn't really show much skill using a sword other then the fact that he knows how swing one (I am sure most shinobi from genin to Kage know that much). Ok cool thanks. Still kind of feel like the title is slightly misleading, but considering I was the only one with the problem understanding, I guess it was just my lack of understanding.




On topic: Do not really need a long post for this. Just comes down to how long one thinks Gai can keep up 6-7 gates and how efficient Tsunade is in guarding her one weak point, her head/neck (however when the magatamas hit her head she was unfazed so perhaps it takes something more than Gai swinging a sword to behead her). How long Byakugou can remain active vs. Gai's 6-7 gates time is also a factor. Also comes into play whether one thinks Gai will actually go for a beheading. These are the only real factors in this match up for one to decide the battle.

If Gai stays in base for too long and tries to engage in CQC, he could end up losing his sword/getting gravely injured before he even busts out gates. Does Gai like to fight in base at least for a short while? Yes, so he could end up getting himself hurt and losing his sword. If he does, his gates could be less efficient and the time he could use them could be cut. Now if Gai goes gates without getting seriously hurt, then he can start pummeling Tsunade. But with her medical ninjutsu like Byakugou and Genesis Rebirth, good luck putting her down and keeping her down. IMO I think her byakugou will last longer than consistent 6-7 gates usage which could result in Gai's loss. However with blades here, Gai could go for a beheading. Issue here is that if we assume that beheading is her only weakness then she would know that. She can guard just her neck if it truly is her only weakness with Byakugou active. But considering the piercing magatamas could not even get off her head, can Gai do it with his katana?

To be fair to both characters, it could go either way based on what one believes that Gai/Tsunade could do. If Gai's gates outlast Tsunade's byakugou, then Gai would likely win. If Tsunade's byakugou outlasts Gai's gates, then she would likely win. Some might believe Gai can slice through her arms/neck in one fell swoop even when the magatamas could not. Others would believe the inverse. Those that believe the former would likely believe Gai would win, while those favoring the latter believe Tsunade would win. Also there is the possibility that even beheading her might not work. Sounds crazy, but after seeing her bisected who knows maybe it would not work. Not really trying to sway anyone either which way but just giving people things to think about since I believe these are the most important factors to think about. Not really enough information for me to fully conclude an answer but I would likely give it to Tsunade, but I would like to see how long Gai can keep gates up and how long Tsunade can keep byakugou up as well as the limits of byakugou's healing.


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## Jad (Mar 5, 2013)

*On paper* Gai can't outlast Tsunade's Byakugo when comparing the Gates. I can fully understand that. But do you really think the Magatama's that Madara used had any form of piercing power? They are thin, just about the size of Madara's hand  and rounded off with just one spike [1] when he used them against Tsunade. They didn't even spin and you can see the blunt side was used to hit Tsunade if you noticed how Madara threw the last one. It looked more like they broke and exploded on impact when they hit Tsunade, with just enough force to cause her to fall back and land in and destroy a rock formation. Plus it doesn't take much to throw Tsunade off her footing, ask Kabuto that. That's why I don't believe it hit her head, otherwise just like that Kabuto scan, her head would jolt backwards in that panel. Compare that to the real deal that looked much sharper, bigger, and had time to increase momentum when thrown and also spun around [2].

Plus I highly doubt that Tsunade can protect all parts of her head with her arms from an opponent as fast as Gai, he doesn't even need to resort to slicing, he could impale her and leave the blade in her head. Not much she can do about that because she'd be totally unconscious.


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## joshhookway (Mar 5, 2013)

Gai destroys.


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## Rosencrantz (Mar 5, 2013)

Just depends on how its looked at. Not every Magatama fired off at the Kages had more than one spike yet they all produced the same piercing effect. Also hard to see whether the Magatamas used on Tsunade HAD more than one spike. Whether the sword is big or small, it still cuts. So one could argue that it did likely have a piercing effect, but simply did not pierce through her. Kabuto sent her flying like that? That never happened in the manga.

Again while you "highly doubt" that she can protect her one "weak point," others would simply argue differently. You think Gai is just too fast. That's fine. Some would say yes he is fast but Tsunade can still guard her neck/face just fine. Gai also for some reason feels the need to attack straight (not someone's blind spot) on which further limits where his attacks could come from. Maybe I am missing a time in which he does this though. And while Gai could potentially stab, he may not be able to stab straight through her arms all the way to her head. If he managed to get an open look at her head, who is to say that this will incapacitate her anyway?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 6, 2013)

Bonly said:


> And yet from what we saw Kages were saving/worried about others. Indeed we did see what happen we a kage took their eyes off their own battle, a kage got hit of some kind or another kage saved them and they were successfully able to get away from the clones.
> 
> Yup and guess what happen to Gaara? He managed to save one kage as well as get to the other kages fine so that they can do their combo attack. And guess what happened to A? He saved by another kage.
> 
> ...



Yes, I did consider that.  But I feel that it's really unlikely considering what we saw, and that Kishi only deigned to show us the parts of the fight he felt were turning points, or important moment, which highly suggests that what happened off-panel were status quo.  

Ei couldn't break Susano.  Onoki couldn't Jinton them to dust because of the rinnegan and lacked bunker busting physical attacks.  Susano punched through Mei's top acid.  Gaara could only defend, and hadn't swamped then in a desert.  Tsunade was the only one with enough blunt force to break Susano, but she needed to take damage to get the opening to do damage (Hinting that an evasive approach like Ei's wasn't getting her anywhere), but hadn't seemed to have killed any.  We didn't even get a comment like, "He just replaces the ones we beat."  In fact, Madara was sitting on a hill, watching it all happen, completely uninvolved.  The same way he sat later on a hill watching Obito fight Kakashi and Naruto and Guy after Hirudora ejected him from the battle.  It's more consistent with his characterization for him to sit back and watch people struggle, than it is for him to involve himself more by replacing clones.  The fact that as soon as one kage disabled his lot, they were able to join up again also suggests that no one was making any real headway.  And so considering all of this, I reached my conclusion that they probably didn't have help from each other, and that those are probably the same clones they were fighting at the start, since there's no need to replace what never broke.

That doesn't mean that we didn't entertain other notions or ideas when we came to this or similar conclusions, or that we haven't revised our views as new evidence or facts were brought up or pointed out.  (In this very thread on kage rankings, Emporio Ivankov learned something new about Onoki, and blackguyinpinksuit respected that with different criteria for evaluation, the closer rankings between some kage change, and I also respect the way he based his initial rankings) You're not the only person who ever bothered to think about or discuss the chapter.  Like I said, it was a mess, and a lot of very intelligent members took to read and re-read it, and sort it, and looked at it with new translations, made their own translations from raws, and discussed it in context at later dates after new chapters came out and brought their wildly different impressions to a form of, although possibly imperfect or impossible to confirm, consensus.  (Gokage chapters are SRS BEANZ) So talking as if no one else ever thought to look at it your way or weight the possibility is, well, a little insulting.  Especially when we've given you hosts of reasons for why we decided that hypothesis was extremely unlikely, and that should show you that others really thought about it.

You are free to theorize however you want about what happened off-panel because no one can prove anything without asking Kishi.  Mine is based on the best reading I can interpret with all the clues that Kishimoto gave us and showed us, and I feel it is most consistent with feats and information and narrative portrayals after discussing it with, and listening to the views of a fair number of people.  Obviously you think the same, and while I and others disagree, we can't offer anymore evidence or interpretations than we have, and I don't think any of it is going to change your mind anytime soon.


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## Bonly (Mar 6, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Yes, I did consider that.  But I feel that it's really unlikely considering what we saw, and that Kishi only deigned to show us the parts of the fight he felt were turning points, or important moment, which highly suggests that what happened off-panel were status quo.
> 
> Ei couldn't break Susano.  Onoki couldn't Jinton them to dust because of the rinnegan and lacked bunker busting physical attacks.  Susano punched through Mei's top acid.  Gaara could only defend, and hadn't swamped then in a desert.  Tsunade was the only one with enough blunt force to break Susano, but she needed to take damage to get the opening to do damage (Hinting that an evasive approach like Ei's wasn't getting her anywhere), but hadn't seemed to have killed any.



A could get through Susanoo. He was already cracking ribs on his own just like Tsunade, it just would have taken some time. Onoki already showed that he can take out the clones with Jinton since they have to switch out of Susanoo to use Preta path and when you add the fact that he canonly disable Susanoo clones which means an easy shot to take them out, I fail to see how one thinks Onoki couldn't take some out. Assuming you based this Mei part on when got punch near the start of the chapter, Mei never used her top acid unless you think her lava is her top acid.



> We didn't even get a comment like, "He just replaces the ones we beat."  In fact, Madara was sitting on a hill, watching it all happen, completely uninvolved.  The same way he sat later on a hill watching Obito fight Kakashi and Naruto and Guy after Hirudora ejected him from the battle.  It's more consistent with his characterization for him to sit back and watch people struggle, than it is for him to involve himself more by replacing clones.  The fact that as soon as one kage disabled his lot, they were able to join up again also suggests that no one was making any real headway.  *And so considering all of this, I reached my conclusion that they probably didn't have help from each other,* and that those are probably the same clones they were fighting at the start, since there's no need to replace what never broke.



We also didn't get a comment like "We have been fighting for hours" and yet we can tell that they have been fighting for hours. In fact I had more to say but then I got to the bold. No need to reply back if you came to the conclusion that the probably didn't have help from each other when its canon that they did, which means there's a good chance for it to have happened during the fight.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Then you sadly haven't fully comprehend the point I was getting across when I posted in this thread, as said above, no need to reply back.


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## LostSelf (Mar 6, 2013)

Just saying, but Madara's Magatama was little and shit compared to the big one. It exploded, piercing things doesn't explodes if i recall AND there was a gap where Tsunade was regenerating from the attack. If Byakugo begins to heal the instant she gets damage, then the jutsu regenerated her after she was hit, sent flying and standing up.

The little jutsu, the only one not cutting her (Kabuto did, Oro did) doesn't make her body unable to be cut by normal means. It shows the jutsu was not potent enough to pierce her or bypass her. Now if she had a record of tanking a lot of cutting attacks, the i would argue about the Magatama.

A log did it, something with no sharp at all and i bet that log lacked the potency of a Gated Gai with a sharp weapon IN a small part of the body like the neck.

I still say it, she has resilency and the strong body of the senju. Because if her body was so durable to not suffer from a Magatama (If we assume that this MAgatama was devastating) and to be unable of being cut by the Kusanagi, why develop Byakugo then when not everyday you see a guy like Madara?


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## Jamiez (Mar 6, 2013)

1.  Hidan hitting  himself DEEPLY, both with three edged blade and pike
2.  Fuguki murdered with blades in body
3.  Zabuza being hit with numerous amounts of blades
4.  Kisame killing 'friends' (still Shinobi)
5.  Sword in Sakura (closest I know to Tsunade)
6.  Average sword getting through Puppets
7.  Average blade cutting through Boulder
8.  Sharks teeth chewing up Kisame
9.  Rusty pipe through Konan
10. Kuani through Yahiko
11. Blunt blade wielded by Mifune completely cut through Hanzou (no hien)
12. Blade from Sickle used to cut himself (Hanzou) deeply
13. Itachi murdered his entire clan with one Katana, so they must have been cut deeply

I don't see why this excludes Tsunade from being cut up if all the above have as well, deeply and fatally might I add, not just random scratches. I made sure to find fatal stab wounds/slashes only. I mean if Kisame was chewed alive by Sharks whose mouth were being held open by Yamato and Naruto of all people, than
surely Tsunade is going to get sliced and diced by Gai with a normal sharp blade at his level of strength, let alone Gates. I mean everyone I have listed except Kisame, don't even come close to Gai's base strength. And all the examples are of named characters, except Kisame's first example of killing normal no named - Shinobi's. I mean how about Hidan? His pretty durable and yet falls for his own blades.

To suggest Tsunade can't be sliced up fatally or impaled is ludicrous. The OP even gave Gai gated speed, this fight turns into a joke. It's hard enough for Tsunade considering his student Lee (not gated) bisected Madara with a bit of help from the Kyuubi shroud (which might I add doesn't warrant kicking through someone considering Bee with all his speed and strength couldn't close the deal on Sasuke's brittle body)


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 7, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Why would Gai fail to cut her with a katana? As far as i know, Tsunade is not known for having a durable body like Sandaime Raikage's. She has a lot of pain tolerance and regenerative jutsus.



Tsunade is no Sandaime Raikage, but you don't need to be Sandaime Raikage just to tank a katana strike. Mabui's Tenso no Jutsu can easily rip human bodies to shreds, and that's far, far harsher than the level of cutting damage that a mere katana slash can produce. Yet Tsunade managed to live through it, without serious injury.

Tsunade has a lot of pain tolerance and regenerative jutsu, that's true, but don't ever forget that she has amazing durability too. I mean, that's the entire premise behind her character - she's one of those few people who 'just can't be killed in battle', just like Orochimaru, so don't expect her to drop dead to a silly sword slash.


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## Remsengan (Mar 7, 2013)

What's the deal with the high amount of speculation regarding off-panel events?  Clearly Kishi felt it necessary only to show us what mattered.  The implication of those panels was that Tsunade's endurance and Bruiser fighting style fared better against Susano'o then the tactics the other Kage employed.

Any theories about what happened off-panel can be weighted either way.  Tsunade could have helped the other Kages rather than vice-versa, Madara could have regen'd more clones and they could have been whacking them all day.  It's fun to speculate but really it's nothing more than inferred fan fiction.

What counts is that when Tsunade took a hit or got caught, she could use the opportunity to counter attack because of her endurance.  When the other Kages got caught, they nearly got wrecked and needed outside help to recover.  I'm personally willing to take what was on panel more seriously than the speculation of what happened outside Kishi's portrayal.


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## NarutoWinsByDefault (Mar 7, 2013)

Tsunade wont even touch Gai, who is too slick.  It's not like Tsunade is a combatant, she is a medical ninja which means she is trained in avoiding damage, not inflicting it.  Sure she has super strength, that doesnt mean anything if she cant hit anyone with it.. Sakura has super strength, but im not betting on her beating anyone of the rookie 9.


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## Mithos (Mar 8, 2013)

NarutoWinsByDefault said:


> Tsunade wont even touch Gai, who is too slick.  It's not like Tsunade is a combatant, she is a medical ninja which means she is trained in avoiding damage, not inflicting it.  Sure she has super strength, that doesnt mean anything if she cant hit anyone with it.. Sakura has super strength, but im not betting on her beating anyone of the rookie 9.



This is completely wrong.

Tsunade, by her own admission, is more than just a medical ninja and is well versed in combat as well. She kept up with the other Kage in their battle against Madara and held her own against 5 Susano'o clones - which is more than Gaara and Mei can say. 

Tsunade, like Gai, is also a master of close combat, scoring a 5 in the databook as well as having shown the ability to dodge and counter-attack immediately, even when in unfavorable positions. She has also shown the ability to take a hit then immediately strike back before the opponent can move - when she tackled Kabuto when he cut her muscles. The only reason Kabuto wasn't killed was because he negated her strength - something Gai cannot do. Tsunade was able to catch Madara off guard after he stabbed her in the spine thanks to Byakugou; and she was able to tank her way to smashing a Susano'o clone into the ground with 2 swords nearly bisecting her. 

Tsunade has many options for landing a hit against Gai: she can dodge and strike back, she can take a hit and then strike him before he has the ability to move due to momentum (the most likely way she will land a blow), she can just juggernaut her way through his attacks and smash him head on because of her regeneration, or she can outlast his Gates and finish him off while he's exhausted.


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## FearIsGood (Mar 8, 2013)

What's with all this talk about a Steel Katana not cutting through Tsunade? That's ridiculous talk.

*1.0* Sandaime Raikage skin said to be like Steel (1).

*2.0* Kimimaro said by Kabuto and not denied by Orochimaru to have the most perfect and most powerful body of all (2).
*2.1* Which is because Kimimaro stated his bones were as solid as Steel (3).

This makes sense considering he was buried 200 feet into the earth and still survived, and the Samurai's could only barely slice through his bones.

*3.0* Gai stated to have a body like tempered Steel ().

So 'Steel' is regarded as being of high durability and compared to those with strong durable bodies. To say Tsunade is as durable as Sandaime or bones are compared to Kimimaro is just pure overrating. Her body was injured within the Mabui telportation technique, that means her bodies durability is LOWER than Steel. What does Gai have in his hands? A Katana? What are Katana blades usually made out of? Steel? Does he have crazy strength? Access to Gates? And Kimimaro's Bones are rated at Steel durability also, you all think she has bones at Steel level? What because Orochimaru with the Kusangi which HURT Enma wasn't shown slicing Tsunade in half? He was slashing her, big deal. Gai has a weapon that can cut her body and bones, stop overrating her durability.

I dare you search for threads of Gai (gates) vs Healthy Kimimaro, some even get locked because of how much unfair the fight is. Tsunade has a less durable body than Kimimaro but at the same time tanks Gai's attacks while Kimimaro gets stomped, even though he has a *5 in Taijutsu* and better showings than Tsunade has EVER shown. It doesn't add up.

*Uzumaki Nagato*, one of the users defending Tsunade said this about Kimimaro who as explained above has a much more durable body than Tsunade. This is just one example.

_"Give Gai the Hachimon, though, and he should be able to stomp Kimimaro to oblivion with Asa Kujaku alone." _ .​


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## Mercurial (Mar 8, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> This is completely wrong.
> 
> Tsunade, by her own admission, is more than just a medical ninja and is well versed in combat as well. She kept up with the other Kage in their battle against Madara and held her own against 5 Susano'o clones - which is more than Gaara and Mei can say.
> 
> ...


Madara off guard? Madara perfectly reacted,WTF?

you can't even compare Kabuto with Gated Gai,please,this isn't fair

Gai is a true master of taijutsu,not a smashy,smashy,a man who disarmed Kisame of his Samehada using his legs,didn't let Obito lay a finger on him with his Kamui fighting even without the Hachimon Tonkou... his speed is just to much,he can blitz Tsunade as he wishes,and his punchs and kicks are so fast to make the air ignite... imagine punches similars as Asa Kujaku's,but used to slash with a katana... Tsunade would be butchered without even understand what is happening


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 8, 2013)

FearIsGood said:


> *So 'Steel' is regarded as being of high durability and compared to those with strong durable bodies.* Her body was injured within the Mabui telportation technique, that means her bodies durability is LOWER than Steel. What does Gai have in his hands? A Katana? *What are Katana blades usually made out of? Steel?*



You're confusing a simile with literal language, and using an equivocation of terms to justify your point.  

Steel in the comparison to bodies is being used to denote strength.  Versus physical steel which is probably a whole lot weaker than Sandaime raikage.  This is illustrated with a simple thought experiment.  Sandaime survived a Bijuudama intact.  Would a steel katana or a lump of steel survive a bijuudama?  Sources say no.

If I thought you were joking it'd be hilarious.


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## FearIsGood (Mar 8, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You're confusing a simile with literal language, and using an equivocation of terms to justify your point.
> 
> Steel in the comparison to bodies is being used to denote strength.  Versus physical steel which is probably a whole lot weaker than Sandaime raikage.  This is illustrated with a simple thought experiment.  Sandaime survived a Bijuudama intact.  Would a steel katana or a lump of steel survive a bijuudama?  Sources say no.
> 
> If I thought you were joking it'd be hilarious.



The only scan I know where the Sandaime and Hachibi were included in a conversation was in this page (1). It doesn't state he got hit by a Bijuudama, could you throw a scan my way please.​


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## ueharakk (Mar 8, 2013)

FearIsGood said:


> The only scan I know where the Sandaime and Hachibi were included in a conversation was in this page (1). It doesn't state he got hit by a Bijuudama, could you throw a scan my way please.​



although you are correct about Pirate's analogy, the point he is trying to make is a pretty accurate one.

Pain's chakra rods have been shown to be way more durable than normal steel.  A rasengan easily destroys those rods, the rods even start cracking before naruto's rasengan touched it when he fought roshi.  If Sandaime is truly as durable as steel, a rasengan would be enough to kill him with his RnY off.

Also since I ended up replying, I'll take a stab at some other stuff I didn't agree with:

1) you don't need to be as durable as steel in order to stop a steel blade from slicing your entire body in half

2) At least while she is in byakugo, Tsunade has shown way better durability feats than Gai who you stated is hyped to have a body like tempered steel and even kimimaro.

3) if kusanagi is able to harm enma while he is stated to be as hard as diamond, and it can't cut through tsunade much, then that is a good durability feat for her.


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## FearIsGood (Mar 8, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> although you are correct about Pirate's analogy, the point he is trying to make is a pretty accurate one.
> 
> Pain's chakra rods have been shown to be way more durable than normal steel.  A rasengan easily destroys those rods, the rods even start cracking before naruto's rasengan touched it when he fought roshi.  If Sandaime is truly as durable as steel, a rasengan would be enough to kill him with his RnY off.
> 
> ...



Yet you have no proof if Rasengan hitting the Raikage with no shroud would do nothing or do something. Naruto's rasengan in Kyuubi Shrouded Mode I can see, considering it snapped Pain's Rods, would hurt Sandaime Raikage. That's the logic in which Kishimoto has set. His constantly used 'Steel' as a durability measurement. So if Rasengan can break steel, it hurts Sandaime.



> 2) At least while she is in byakugo, Tsunade has shown way better durability feats than Gai who you stated is hyped to have a body like tempered steel and even kimimaro.



Could you link me?



> 3) if kusanagi is able to harm enma while he is stated to be as hard as diamond, and it can't cut through tsunade much, then that is a good durability feat for her.



That doesn't make sense, if Kusangi is worth more than Steel, can affect Diamond, is a one of legendary items, but it can't cut Tsunade in half or affect her bones? He was slashing her, wounding her, he was able pierce her sternum as well (1).​


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## ueharakk (Mar 8, 2013)

FearIsGood said:


> Yet you have no proof if Rasengan hitting the Raikage with no shroud would do nothing or do something. Naruto's rasengan in Kyuubi Shrouded Mode I can see, considering it snapped Pain's Rods, would hurt Sandaime Raikage. That's the logic in which Kishimoto has set. His constantly used 'Steel' as a durability measurement. So if Rasengan can break steal, it hurts Sandaime.​



I don't have any feats of rasengan hitting unshrouded raikage, but we do see how much a KCM rasengan destroyed Muu who is not implied to be super durable.  All it did to muu was make holes roughly the size of the rasengans.

On the other hand, pain's black rods are way more durable than steel and they start to break before a kcm rasengan touches them.  So the rasengan would do even more damage than it did to muu's body if sandaime is actually as durable as steel.




FearIsGood said:


> Could you link me?


She took mini yasaka magatama at point blank to the stomach and came out unharmed.  Note that the stomach wound from the sword has barely healed despite starting to heal a page before she was hit with that attack.

Gai on the other hand coughs up blood after getting punched by 30% Kisame.
I can't think of a durability feat that Kimimaro has that says he can withstand that hit and take no damage especially when we see his bones are casually cut by susanoo sword.




FearIsGood said:


> That doesn't make sense, if Kusangi is worth more than Steel, can affect Diamond, is a one of legendary items, but it can't cut Tsunade in half or affect her bones? He was slashing her, wounding her, he was able to get through her sternum as well.


​why doesn't that make sense?  A feat is a feat, if we see him fail to slice through her, then it means he failed to slice through her, and thus she has to be that durable.  

Sure she's not durable enough to not take a lot of damage from the slashes and not gush out blood, but she did tank it on panel, all the hype in the world wouldn't change that direct kusanagi vs tsunade-durability clash.


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## Kaiser (Mar 8, 2013)

Gated Gai simply behead Tsunade. Tsunade's main power is Byakuyou and the secret behind it. Since she can use the opportunity when the opponent think he dealt with her to surprise and crush him. But with full knowledge, Gai would already be aware of that and with the great advantage of speed, it's what he would do


ueharakk said:


> Pain's chakra rods have been shown to be way more durable than normal steel.


Yet Kakashi broke it with bare hands


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## ueharakk (Mar 8, 2013)

Blake said:


> Yet Kakashi broke it with bare hands



in canon or in the anime?  

and that would just mean kakashi is a beast.


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## LostSelf (Mar 8, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Tsunade is no Sandaime Raikage, but you don't need to be Sandaime Raikage just to tank a katana strike. Mabui's Tenso no Jutsu can easily rip human bodies to shreds, and that's far, far harsher than the level of cutting damage that a mere katana slash can produce. Yet Tsunade managed to live through it, without serious injury.



She was injured, but she healed. Yet, she has been shown to be cut. While Gai has shown to have a overwhelming strenght as to be able to cut her.



> Tsunade has a lot of pain tolerance and regenerative jutsu, that's true, but don't ever forget that she has amazing durability too. I mean, that's the entire premise behind her character - she's one of those few people who 'just can't be killed in battle', just like Orochimaru, so don't expect her to drop dead to a silly sword slash.



No, cutting her head off is not a silly sword slash. It's a one hit kill attack, something she, even with Byakugo cannot survive. She can be cut. She was cut by a mokuton branch. Gated Gai, who has arguably more potency than a branch should cut her head off with minimal effort. Considering the big speed gap between them and that Tsunade won't tank his hits like nothing. She will be sent flying with the impact since she cannot block Gated Gai's attacks.


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## Mithos (Mar 8, 2013)

Raikiri19 said:


> Madara off guard? Madara perfectly reacted,WTF?
> 
> you can't even compare Kabuto with Gated Gai,please,this isn't fair
> 
> Gai is a true master of taijutsu,not a smashy,smashy,a man who disarmed Kisame of his Samehada using his legs,didn't let Obito lay a finger on him with his Kamui fighting even without the Hachimon Tonkou... his speed is just to much,he can blitz Tsunade as he wishes,and his punchs and kicks are so fast to make the air ignite... imagine punches similars as Asa Kujaku's,but used to slash with a katana... Tsunade would be butchered without even understand what is happening



He was able to react, but she still caught him off guard when she broke the sword and swung it at his face. 

You missed the point about her feats against Kabuto. It's not that she was able to do those things against Kabuto that's important: it's to show that her fighting style revolves around using either her evasion or her resilience and regeneration to counter-attack her opponents with her strength.  

Tsunade is also a true master of close combat. Her style is much more than just 'smashy smashy' - as I described above and in my last post. Her style is different than Gai's, but that doesn't make it inferior. 

Tsunade has shown good speed and reaction feats - while she is without a doubt slower than Gated Gai by a good margin, she can keep up enough to defend herself. She was able to react and intercept Orochimaru's attacks on Naruto; she blitzed Orochimaru from laying on the ground while he was watching her closely enough to notice her trembling stopped; she intercepted Manda's attack on Jiraiya and Gamabunta; she reacted to Pain's CST quickly enough to distribute her chakra through Katsuyu to shield the villagers from the attack; she was able to keep track of A's, Naruto's and Bee's movements; she was able to react and kick Madara back immediately upon entering the battle-field despite her insides being "torn to shreds"; she was able to react and attack in tandem with a lightened (increased speed) A against Madara to break Susano'o; she was able to react and intercept/deflect Madara's Katon before Mei could even perform a Suiton, or before any of the other Kage reacted to take defensive measures. 

The idea that Tsunade is slow and cannot keep up with fast opponents is baseless. With Byakugou Tsunade can certainly defend herself enough to take on a Gated Gai.


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## LostSelf (Mar 9, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> why doesn't that make sense?  A feat is a feat, if we see him fail to slice through her, then it means he failed to slice through her, and thus she has to be that durable.
> 
> Sure she's not durable enough to not take a lot of damage from the slashes and not gush out blood, but she did tank it on panel, all the hype in the world wouldn't change that direct kusanagi vs tsunade-durability clash.



This depends. If we have something indicating that Orochimaru was trying to cut her bones. As i recall, it has not been implied as to make that assumption.

As much as i know, he was just slashing her and that's it. If he was able to pierce through her entire torso (i know it's diferent) without much effort, i fail to see why he would not be able to cut an arm. The only thing that would make think he wouldn't is because of Oro's strenght and because he was just using his head.

But this is another assumption like saying he was trying to cut her bones but couldn't when we all saw slashes and in her breasts, most of them. You don't cut someone in half in that part with slashes like that. Any other shinobi would've been hard to cut the way Orochimaru did.


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## ueharakk (Mar 9, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> This depends. If we have something indicating that Orochimaru was trying to cut her bones. As i recall, it has not been implied as to make that assumption.


he was trying to kill Naruto with the slash that she stopped.  Considering how big a threat he thought Naruto was there was no reason for him to considerably hold back.



TheIronMan said:


> As much as i know, he was just slashing her and that's it. If he was able to pierce through her entire torso (i know it's diferent) without much effort, i fail to see why he would not be able to cut an arm. The only thing that would make think he wouldn't is because of Oro's strenght and because he was just using his head.


He tried to cleave naruto in half with this attack but it barely dug into her side.  

Considering the forearm should be more durable than the side of the stomach, I don't think he'd cut her arm off.

Also strait up sword thrusts are just way more penetrative than a diagonal slash because it focuses a much heavier attack on a much smaller point of entry.

We also see that Orochimaru just using his head doesn't really mean much when it comes to the force of his kusanagi blade vs target when he sent KN4 a mile through a forest and a cliff.



TheIronMan said:


> But this is another assumption like saying he was trying to cut her bones but couldn't when we all saw slashes and in her breasts, most of them. You don't cut someone in half in that part with slashes like that. Any other shinobi would've been hard to cut the way Orochimaru did.


I might me wrong, but I think you are talking about when he cut her form her collarbone diagonally to her right leg.  However, I was talking about the time when she stopped his blade from cutting naruto in half.

and I don't think I mentioned this in my post but we shouldn't be surprised that her body has advanced durability considering she has uzumaki and senju dna.


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## LostSelf (Mar 10, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> he was trying to kill Naruto with the slash that she stopped.  Considering how big a threat he thought Naruto was there was no reason for him to considerably hold back.
> 
> 
> He tried to cleave naruto in half with this attack but it barely dug into her side.



But you don't need to cut someone in half to kill it (let alone a child). And in that scan, despite the movement shown in the previous one, it looks like if Orochimaru was going to pierce Naruto (considering where the blade is, Orochimaru's position is a bit far away from Naruto to cut him in half and that he was just getting momentum with his head).

it barely dug into her side.



> Considering the forearm should be more durable than the side of the stomach, I don't think he'd cut her arm off.



Fair enough.



> Also strait up sword thrusts are just way more penetrative than a diagonal slash because it focuses a much heavier attack on a much smaller point of entry.



I agree with this.



> We also see that Orochimaru just using his head doesn't really mean much when it comes to the force of his kusanagi blade vs target when he sent KN4 a mile through a forest and a cliff.



That wasn't Orochimaru's strenght, though. He was enlarging his sword and his neck and that was pushing KN4. Slashes with his head should be way weaker than doing them with his arms.



> I might me wrong, but I think you are talking about when he cut her form her collarbone diagonally to her right leg.  However, I was talking about the time when she stopped his blade from cutting naruto in half.



it barely dug into her side.

Slashes like those, that are not implied to cut her, just slashing her, still dealing lethal amount of damage, but not cutting her.

And i still say it, she was cut in half by a branch. She can be cut.



> and I don't think I mentioned this in my post but we shouldn't be surprised that her body has advanced durability considering she has uzumaki and senju dna.



I agree that she has more durability than normal shinobi and top tiers. But not enough as to tank a Katana slash in the neck coming from Gated Gai. In my opinion his inmense strenght should be enough to behead her without much problems, though.


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## ueharakk (Mar 10, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> But you don't need to cut someone in half to kill it (let alone a child). And in that scan, despite the movement shown in the previous one, it looks like if Orochimaru was going to pierce Naruto (considering where the blade is, Orochimaru's position is a bit far away from Naruto to cut him in half and that he was just getting momentum with his head).


I think that kishi and most mangakas portray a slash by the motion of the slash rather than where the slash ends up.  

we see here that not only he is swinging his sword in an arc, but he is standing right above naruto, so if he wanted to merely stab naruto, there would have been no reason for the whole swinging the head motion, he could have just gone strait down.  

And considering Naruto is the ninetails jinchuriki, cutting him in half would be a much better option than giving him a wound he could heal from.



TheIronMan said:


> here


i don't think the trajectory of the sword slash not hitting naruto is really a good argument since in the manga, we see swords that are stopped midstrike that would seem to miss the target had they not been stopped.





TheIronMan said:


> That wasn't Orochimaru's strenght, though. He was enlarging his sword and his neck and that was pushing KN4. Slashes with his head should be way weaker than doing them with his arms.


I admit the pushing strength against KN4 isn't his own neck strength.  But I would think that orochimaru's head slashes would not be way weaker than doing them with his arms considering his snake-like body.




TheIronMan said:


> had they not been stopped.
> 
> Slashes like those, that are not implied to cut her, just slashing her, still dealing lethal amount of damage, but not cutting her.


agree with that



TheIronMan said:


> And i still say it, she was cut in half by a branch. She can be cut.


Sure she can be cut, but the branch example happened off panel so we don't know how the branch cut if if it was the branch that cut her at all.  The blood marks certainly make it seem like she wasn't merely squished in half by the branch.





TheIronMan said:


> I agree that she has more durability than normal shinobi and top tiers. But not enough as to tank a Katana slash in the neck coming from Gated Gai. In my opinion his inmense strenght should be enough to behead her without much problems, though.


Woah, if that's what you were arguing for then my bad, I misunderstood your argument and I would agree that she'd get beheaded by a katana slash from gated gai.


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## Jad (Mar 10, 2013)

Why are we still discussing if Tsunade can't get cut up or not. Notably one of the more durable characters Hidan, who takes blasts from Kakuzu attacks still can get cut up by feeble weak characters like Shikamaru [1][2]. Even more so, this guy takes an amarda of paper tag explosions, yet his unaffected by it yet the steel wire slices him like a pickle [3][4]. I think it is a bit too much to say Tsunade can't be pierced or sliced by a Gated Gai.


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