# A3 vs Sannin



## YonkoDrippy (Oct 30, 2020)

Can the Sannin take this man down? Or do they all get fingered?



VS



A3 is alive
*Full Knowledge for A3, Manga Knowledge for Sannin
Restrictions: *Edo Tensei

Reactions: Funny 1 | Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 30, 2020)

Tsunade and Orochimaru keep Ay3 at bay while Jiraiya enters Sage Mode. Once Jiraiya's in SM, Tsunade and Orochimaru amp J-Man up by using Strength of a Hundred and having Oro himself add his own Sage chakra to the Rasengan (like how Naruto added to Boruto's), and smoke Ay3 with it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 30, 2020)

@MaruUchiha @Hellraiser @King789 @Shazam @t0xeus @DaVizWiz @The Great One
Thoughts?


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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 30, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Tsunade and Orochimaru keep Ay3 at bay while Jiraiya enters Sage Mode. Once Jiraiya's in SM, Tsunade and Orochimaru amp J-Man up by using Strength of a Hundred and having Oro himself add his own Sage chakra to the Rasengan (like how Naruto added to Boruto's), and smoke Ay3 with it.


Remember, A3 has full Knowledge here. So I think he would go after Jiraiya first. Since he’s the easiest to kill in base.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 30, 2020)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Remember, A3 has full Knowledge here. So I think he would go after Jiraiya first. Since he’s the easiest to kill in base.



It won't be that easy with two other Sannin covering J-Man.

Reactions: Like 1


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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 30, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> It won't be that easy with two other Sannin covering J-Man.


2 Sannin that can’t even scratch his armor. A3 is faster than them as well.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Oct 30, 2020)

Any of them solo.

Reactions: Like 6 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 4 | Lewd 1


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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 30, 2020)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Any of them solo.


Never knew you were a comedian

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Oct 30, 2020)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Can the Sannin take this man down? Or do they all get fingered?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Together? 

A3 gets stomped.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Shazam (Oct 30, 2020)

Actually, no restrictions and Orochimaru low diff solo with Edo Tensei

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 30, 2020)

I shouldn’t have tagged all these Sannin lovers lol. Where my Raikage lovers at?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shazam (Oct 30, 2020)

YonkoDrippy said:


> I shouldn’t have tagged all these Sannin lovers lol. Where my Raikage lovers at?



Aka.. I should have tagged Sannin haters. 

Same thing.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## The Great One (Oct 30, 2020)

A3 solos pervert and snake & gets a new wife.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 4 | Dislike 1


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## Turrin (Oct 30, 2020)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Can the Sannin take this man down? Or do they all get fingered?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In matches like this it depends how much Tsunade can boost the other Sannin’s Jutsu. But overall Ei3 would likely win, as he is going to focus on Jiriaya first as the major threat, and kill him before he achieved SM


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## Shazam (Oct 30, 2020)

I'll do it for you 

@ATastyMuffin @dergeist @jesusus @Draco Bolton @Gin Ichimaru @MaruUchiha


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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 30, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Actually, no restrictions and Orochimaru low diff solo with Edo Tensei


Nice try but that’s restricted


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## jesusus (Oct 30, 2020)

Sannin do the fusion dance and become Jirachide. They solo.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Shazam (Oct 30, 2020)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Nice try but that’s restricted



Like we didn't notice

Reactions: Funny 3


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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 30, 2020)

jesusus said:


> Sannin do the fusion dance and become Jirachide. They solo.


This is the Best argument for the Sannin so far lol


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## MaruUchiha (Oct 30, 2020)

They have nothing that can even damage him, and they can't deal with his speed either. Even if they try to stall for Jiraiya to go Sage Mode they won't last. Tsunade and Orochimaru get shredded by Hell Stab or Black Lightning, and Orochimaru said he can't even regen from attacks on the level of 1 Finger Hell Stab. Even if Jiraiya manages Sage Mode he won't have the speed to run away for Frog Song, and can't tag A3 at that speed or even seriously damage A3 with a Massive Rasengan. A3 outlasts worst case scenario, but an unlikely one. Most characters in the War Arc are out of the Sannin's Part 1 paygrade

Reactions: Like 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Oct 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> In matches like this it depends how much Tsunade can boost the other Sannin’s Jutsu. But overall Ei3 would likely win, as he is going to focus on Jiriaya first as the major threat, and kill him before he achieved SM



Turrin arguing A3 soloing the Sannin?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Attack On Loli (Oct 30, 2020)

Orochimaru reks with edo hokage assuming that isnt allowed though with full knowledge A3 would know that he would have to rush Jiraiya so he doesnt enter SM with the speed he has he could possibly avoid the other 2 he would obv take some hits but he has some nice durability this would probs be hard tho. Then he would probs go for the healer Tsunade gets her head chopped and Oro is there even if he uses his white snake form with full knowledge A3 wouldnt cut him down and likely go for black lightning to chip him down if he goes yamata A3 does what he did to 8T but without stabbing himself. A3 high diff


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 30, 2020)

YonkoDrippy said:


> This is the Best argument for the Sannin so far lol



Jiraiya can defend himself from Ay3's initial blitz with Rasengan (notice I said defend, not attack). From there, Orochimaru and Tsunade can intervene and occupy Ay3 while giving J-Man time to run off and start preparing Sage Mode.


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## blk (Oct 30, 2020)

A3 shit stomps these skinny fuckers.

Nothing they have can hurt him, stop him or really even hit him.

Meanwhile he can straight up charge against them, no-sell and pass through everything the 3 losers throw at him either by face tanking or by obliterating with Nukite, and trash each one of them in a single shot.

They obviously can't even escape or dodge the onslaught as they are slow as shit compared to A3 

The Raikage mid diffs.






Shazam said:


> Actually, no restrictions and Orochimaru low diff solo with Edo Tensei

Reactions: Like 1


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## dergeist (Oct 30, 2020)

He lost to a rasengan, so..

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Oct 30, 2020)

I find this sentiment weird "Oro and Tsunade hold X off while Jiraiya enters SM" as if SM Jiraiya is some unstoppable founders level threat who, if he enters SM, it's OVER.

Oro time and time again is portrayed as the strongest Sannin, and truthfully SM Jiraiya would only serve as backup to Hydra Oro who's the real heavy hitter among the three.

And it doesn't matter even if Jiraiya gets into SM as even with it he's not equal to or above Oro, and even Oro falls to A3 easily (granted A3 would have to exhaust him but still)

Jiraiya doesn't have the type of immortality Oro has, he simply gets ran through with Nukite and dies, and the other 2 Sannin fall after him.

A3 is a beast, truly borderline unstoppable until you start hitting the mid-top of the high Kage bracket, the Sannin are nothing to him, 3x0=0


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## Tsukuyomi (Oct 30, 2020)

Hmm In my opinion i can see him beating either of the Sannin individually.
But all of them at the same time?
Nah bro I do not see why  Byakugo Amped Rashomon Gates cannot help stall and impede the Raikage's Movements while Jiraiya preps Frog Song and from there on it is GG tbh.
Please forgive me my fellow brethren
@MaruUchiha 
@YonkoDrippy 
@deltaniner 
@jesusus 
@Sufex


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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 30, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Jiraiya can defend himself from Ay3's initial blitz with Rasengan (notice I said defend, not attack).


Lol



> From there, Orochimaru and Tsunade can intervene and occupy Ay3 while giving J-Man time to run off and start preparing Sage Mode.


Oro gets bisected and Tsunade gets fingered. Nothing suggest Base Jiraiya can even react to A3. He gets blitzed off rip


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## ThirdRidoku (Oct 30, 2020)

dergeist said:


> He lost to a rasengan, so..



You think Tsunade can redirect nukite
can Byakugao survive it? or would she instantly die ?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 30, 2020)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Lol
> 
> 
> Oro gets bisected and Tsunade gets fingered. Nothing suggest Base Jiraiya can even react to A3. He gets blitzed off rip



1. Got it, you don't have an argument. Not surprised at this point, really.

2. Implying Oro cares about being bisected or Tsunade about being fingered. Also, Jiraiya can react to Ay3 just fine. Handseal less jutsu like Toad Oil Bombs and Rasengan can be used to counter the Raikage.


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## Bonly (Oct 30, 2020)

The Sannin would win without too many problems as they can blow off his Raiton armor and attack his body directly upon which they'll wear him out and overwhelm him before long


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## YonkoDrippy (Oct 30, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> 1. Got it, you don't have an argument. Not surprised at this point, really.


Yea cause a No-Knowledge Rasengan will do so much here. When edo A3 no diff tanked a FRS. Awesome argument dude



> 2. Implying Oro cares about being bisected


He will here. Since A3 will just shred him every time he uses oral rebirth.



> or Tsunade about being fingered.


Why wouldn’t she? I don’t think Dan has ever done it.


> Also, Jiraiya can react to Ay3 just fine. Handseal less jutsu like Toad Oil Bombs and Rasengan can be used to counter the Raikage.


Those get dodged or tanked no diff. Jiraiya is useless here without SM. Which he probably won’t be able to use here with A3 having full Knowledge


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## Speedyamell (Oct 30, 2020)

Katsuyu solos


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## Attack On Loli (Oct 30, 2020)

Bonly said:


> they can blow off his Raiton armor


How exactly do they do this


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## Bonly (Oct 30, 2020)

Attack On Loli said:


> How exactly do they do this



Orochi can use Futon as well as Ma+Pa being able to use Senjutsu boosted Futon. Tsunade can also boost their jutsu to blow off his Raiton armor


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## Serene Grace (Oct 30, 2020)

Something something kept up with KCM Naruto despite cleanly being evaded and countered by the much slower SM Naruto, Something something tanked a TBB despite Gyuki saying they both passed out before they got to use their strongest moves, Something something they can’t hurt him when they have methods of combat that bypass conventional durability

Basically you can differentiate the people who actually read the manga, and the people who just spout bullshit that never happened because of some trivial bias. The sannin stomp

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Draco Bolton (Oct 30, 2020)

After one Jigokuzuki Ippon Nukite


Sanninbros....

Our only hope to win is either to summon

Jirachide:



Or Full Power Base Jman:



Our only hopes

Reactions: Funny 8


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 30, 2020)

With ET restricted they lose

But wait, there’s more, somehow Katsuyu has yet to be brought up as the premise for them winning here, ladies and gentlemen don’t falter, the non combat support summon shall be brought up as the difference between three kage being murdered viciously or all surviving and in turn murdering Ei3 instead, watch closely....

:
@Lyren

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 3


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## Soldierofficial (Oct 30, 2020)

Serene Grace said:


> Something something kept up with KCM Naruto despite cleanly being evaded and countered by the much slower SM Naruto, Something something tanked a TBB despite Gyuki saying they both passed out before they got to use their strongest moves, Something something they can’t hurt him when they have methods of combat that bypass conventional durability
> 
> Basically you can differentiate the people who actually read the manga, and the people who just spout bullshit that never happened because of some trivial bias. The sannin stomp



Gyuki implied that he used TBBs against A3, but even if you ignore that fact we know that A3 has a durability greater than 50% Kurama based on feats so he can definitely tank that.


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## Soldierofficial (Oct 30, 2020)

A3 > The Sannin according to feats and portrayal.


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## dergeist (Oct 30, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> You think Tsunade can redirect nukite
> can Byakugao survive it? or would she instantly die ?



Of course she neg diffs it, she exchanged hands with Mads. Byakugou seems to amp a person, there's no other way to explain the sudden amp Tsunade and Sakura undergo.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Serene Grace (Oct 30, 2020)

Soldierofficial said:


> Gyuki implied that he used TBBs against A3, but even if you ignore that fact we know that A3 has a durability greater than 50% Kurama based on feats so he can definitely tank that.


He never implied anything. He originally thought that he did, which was wrong as we later found out both passed out before being able to use their strongest move. Read the manga

Last statement is honestly signature worthy, what the fuck kind of nonsense


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## Lyren (Oct 30, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Of course she nev diffs it, she exchanged hands with Mads. Byakugou seems to amp a person, there's no other way to explain the sudden amp Tsunade and Sakura undergo.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soldierofficial (Oct 30, 2020)

Serene Grace said:


> He never implied anything. He originally thought that he did, which was wrong as we later found out both passed out before being able to use their strongest move. Read the manga
> 
> Last statement is honestly signature worthy, what the fuck kind of nonsense



Read the manga and you will know that a SM FRS did more damage to 50% Kurama than what a KCM FRS did to A3 despite the elemental advantage and that Edo A3 was weaker than his living self, Maru.


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## ThirdRidoku (Oct 30, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Byakugou seems to amp a person, there's no other way to explain the sudden amp Tsunade and Sakura undergo.



Databook IV entry for 100 healings (tsunade) says the chakra she uses to heal can also be used to increase her power so yeah.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Attack On Loli (Oct 30, 2020)

Bonly said:


> Orochi can use Futon as well as Ma+Pa being able to use Senjutsu boosted Futon. Tsunade can also boost their jutsu to blow off his Raiton armor


Doubt that would work Orochi's normal fuuton isnt doing much when Temari's barely scratched him at base aswell as tanking a rasenshuriken, Ma and Pa could potentially hurt him a bit but he isnt gonna be put down by this and if he sees tsunade trying to boost them he would obviously target her instead while doing this Jiraiya wouldnt be able to go SM either as he would have to be somewhere else charging


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## Serene Grace (Oct 30, 2020)

Soldierofficial said:


> Read the manga and you will know that a SM FRS did more damage to 50% Kurama than what a KCM FRS did to A3 despite the elemental advantage and that Edo A3 was weaker than his living self, Maru.


Kurama is capable of taking TBB+ output, shit that would vaporize A3 on contact. Though keep trolling and ignoring Kurama literally just prior to that took 25+ SM CORs. Not to mention this took place in a fucking dream world

Also concession accepted about your earlier lie about Gyuki saying he used TBB on A3.


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## Soldierofficial (Oct 30, 2020)

Serene Grace said:


> Kurama is capable of taking TBB+ output, shit that would vaporize A3 on contact. Though keep trolling and ignoring Kurama literally just prior to that took 25+ SM CORs. Not to mention this took place in a fucking dream world
> 
> Also concession accepted about your earlier lie about Gyuki saying he used TBB on A3.



Thats not how a concession works, you havent shown any feat that proves that I am wrong yet, so I still trust the manga's official feats and statements, where its seen that A3 > 50% Kurama in durability and that contradicts your headcanon that A3 cannot tank a TBB.


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## Bonly (Oct 30, 2020)

Attack On Loli said:


> Doubt that would work Orochi's normal fuuton isnt doing much when Temari's barely scratched him at base aswell as tanking a rasenshuriken, Ma and Pa could potentially hurt him a bit but he isnt gonna be put down by this and if he sees tsunade trying to boost them he would obviously target her instead while doing this Jiraiya wouldnt be able to go SM either as he would have to be somewhere else charging



I think you misunderstand me. When I said "they can blow off his Raiton armor" I meant that literally, as in the point of the Futon is only to blow off his Raiton armor, not to actually hurt him or anything.


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## Onda Vital (Oct 30, 2020)

Only way I can see sannin damagin A3 is either poison or frog song, maybe acid if it can bypass durability.

So Orochimaru stails with yamata and oral rebirth, Tsunade can also summon Katsuyu. Meanwhile, Jiraiay rides on Gamabunta somwhere away and preps frog song.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Oct 30, 2020)

Tsunade solo’s
Keep in mind her punch did more damage to susanoo than 10 tails contient buster move 
Which clearly should be well above FRS 
Thus tsunade should be able to 1 shot


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 30, 2020)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Yea cause a No-Knowledge Rasengan will do so much here. When edo A3 no diff tanked a FRS. Awesome argument dude
> 
> 
> He will here. Since A3 will just shred him every time he uses oral rebirth.
> ...



1. All it has to do is blow Ay3 away long enough for the Sannin to help Jiraiya escape, actually. That's good enough.

2. Orochimaru doesn't need Oral Rebirth to regenerate from bisection.

3. Weird argument, but ok.

4. They _don't_ get dodged, actually - handseal-less jutsu are portrayed as incredibly fast when it comes to casting. This is how Danzo was able to stop Sasuke's Susano'o arrow (which Kakashi was unable to dodge or counter with other jutsu himself and needed his Mangekyo to blow away - itself a handseal-less jutsu). Mifune became famous for his ability to prevent handseals with his quick slices. As for Ay3 tanking them, the point of these jutsu isn't to do damage anyway, but nice try at getting everything wrong. It's not surprising y'all downplay the Sannin so hard when you don't even know much about Naruto lol.


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## Lyren (Oct 30, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Tsunade solo’s
> Keep in mind her punch did more damage to susanoo than 10 tails contient buster move
> Which clearly should be well above FRS
> Thus tsunade should be able to 1 shot


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## Personthing (Oct 30, 2020)

All three Sannin can _potentially_ beat him alone (with varying likelihood of winning), so even with the knowledge disparity the Sannin fighting together win mid to high diff.

Tsunade can potentially Ranshinsho A3 and beat him up until he dies (or, if Rashinsho doesn't work through the cloak, grapple him and repeatedly headbutt him to death). With knowledge A3 should know better than to enter a grapple with her, and he should also know that piercing attacks are utterly ineffective against her, so he could potentially beat her by chopping off her head, but that's still not going to be easy for him  A3 cannot actually hurt Katsuyu either, so she can use the slug to stall indefinitely if needed.

Orochimaru is going to be extremely time-consuming for A3 to kill, especially if he goes Yamata. If Orochimaru uses his true form, he could also potentially deal with A3 with his neurotoxins (and then eat him) - A3's durable body does not mean he's going to handle the toxins better than Sasuke. With knowledge, A3 can deal with Oro's neurotoxins by zapping his true form with Black Lightning rather than hitting him in melee, but Orochimaru would still be time-consuming to kill. In terms of pure stalling, Orochimaru can also use the Ten Thousand Snakes formation to screw with A3 - the snakes cannot hurt him at all, but they're going to mess up his line of sight.

Jiraiya has the most obvious win condition in the form of Frog Song (though in a solo fight he would be the least likely to get it off), which will be an option for the Sannin once they figure out they cannot hurt A3 conventionally. With the two other Sannin (+ summons) protecting him, even with knowledge A3 cannot prevent Jiraiya from summoning Ma and Pa, going SM and having them prep Frog Song. If the Sannin really wanted to cheese a win, they could even have Manda burrow with Jiraiya until he finished prepping and there would not be a damn thing A3 could do about it.

Sannin might also be able to use some sort of combo attack to win - while SM Jiraiya's normal rasengans aren't going to hurt A3, a Byakugo-enhanced one might be able to hurt him, 

In order for A3 to win, he needs to 1) kill Jiraiya before the Sannin figure out Frog Song is their best way of winning (because once they do they can just have Manda burrow with Jiraiya), 2) behead Tsunade without getting Ranshinsho'd and/or grappled, and 3) kill Orochimaru without getting Neurotoxin'd.

I don't think it's possible for A3 to even accomplish step one by killing Jiraiya, however. Even if he goes for Jiraiya immediately after the fight begins, the two other Sannin and/or Jiraiya himself should be able to prevent A3 from getting a kill, given that a surprised Dodai managed to protect Naruto from A3 (*Link Removed*, *Link Removed*) and at a speed Base Naruto could perceive (*Link Removed*). Once the Sannin summon their summons (and figure out that A3 keeps going for Jiraiya), he only has a very little chance of even taking a single of them down - he should be faster than them in movement speed, but not so fast that they cannot deal with his attacks.

Thus, A3 eventually goes down to Frog Song.

Reactions: Like 4 | Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 30, 2020)

SM Naruto's Rasengan cracked Ay3's arm. While SM Naruto is way stronger than SM Jiraiya as a Sage (he's also stronger overall but not *far* more so), Jiraiya can make up for it by using his biggest Rasengan instead. Amp that up with Tsunade's Strength of a Hundred chakra and possibly have Orochimaru add his own powerful chakra - and Ay3 gets blown apart spectacularly.

@Personthing

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 30, 2020)

Ei draws with Hachibi who is weaker than every Sannin individually as 8 tails is much weaker than Kurama and Jiriaya & Orochimaru damn near best him when holding back and not at their best , SM Naruto as just a mere clone pushed his arm thru his chest , take the head cannon bs out the mix Ei3 is vastly overrated based upon plot narrative J-Man chakra signature is still being applied in an era of aliens Ei 3 hasn’t been mentioned in the manga in 10+ years stop it .

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 30, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> as 8 tails is much weaker than Kurama and Jiriaya & Orochimaru damn near best him when holding back and not at their best , SM Naruto as just a mere clone pushed his arm thru his chest



Lol wut? Jiraiya never fought Kurama and neither did Orochimaru. They only fought KN4 who is much, _much _weaker.

Tiers weaker. I see your point though...


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 30, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Lol wut? Jiraiya never fought Kurama and neither did Orochimaru. They only fought KN4 who is much, _much _weaker.
> 
> Tiers weaker. I see your point though...



They fought KN4 Kurama >>>>Hachibi and yes he might be weaker slightly than Hachibi but neither Orochimaru or Jiriaya used anything close to their best stuff

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 30, 2020)

I mean the dude ate one FRS and the forum has lost their damn mind , I mean a random samurai ate the black flames can he beat all of the Sannin too?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 30, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> I mean the dude ate one FRS and the forum has lost their damn mind , I mean a random samurai ate the black flames can he beat all of the Sannin too?



Yes.


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## Turrin (Oct 31, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Turrin arguing A3 soloing the Sannin?


Yeah Ei3 is crazy underestimate


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## Personthing (Oct 31, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> SM Naruto's Rasengan cracked Ay3's arm. While SM Naruto is way stronger than SM Jiraiya as a Sage (he's also stronger overall but not *far* more so), Jiraiya can make up for it by using his biggest Rasengan instead. Amp that up with Tsunade's Strength of a Hundred chakra and possibly have Orochimaru add his own powerful chakra - and Ay3 gets blown apart spectacularly.


That was a pretty minor crack, though, so while a Byakugo Amped SM Rasengan is going to do better than that, I'm still not sure that'd be enough. I believe that Byakugo Amped SM Rasengan is certainly going to do _something _to A3, but that something could be anything from moderately hurting him to one-shotting him, depending on how powerful the Byakugo amp makes it.

That said, your comment about Rasengan made me think about something - if SM Naruto's Rasengan slammed A4's arm into himself, do you think it would be possible for Tsunade to break his arms by twisting them behind his back?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 31, 2020)

Personthing said:


> That was a pretty minor crack, though



Still a crack, which means damage.

Tsunade and J-Man's version will kill him outright. Look at how far Sakura's amp took Obito and Tsunade's took Onoki.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Symmetry (Oct 31, 2020)

The idea that one kage who isn’t Naruto or Hashirama can solo all three Sanin at the same time is funny to me

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Oct 31, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yeah Ei3 is crazy underestimate


more like crazy overestimated lol


I mean A3 scales to v1 Ayy speeds at best, as that's what KCM Naruto remembered when he first engaged in him. He didn't remember V2 Ayy he only remembered V1 Ayy. Which fits with A3's strongest shield and strongest spear hype. He was never hyped as fastest shinobi like his son was.
And he doesn't have any overwhelming speed feats either. Dodai reacted to his jumping speed which is much faster than ground movement since he is overcoming both gravity and air resistance at high speeds off of only one instantaneous force 

And If Taka could manage V1 Ayy speed then so can the Sannin.

And its 3 vs 1 anyway, so speed is a non-factor.

The Sannin have techniques that bypass durability.

And his durability doesn't mean he can't be knocked away by their attacks, which allows Jiraiya to buy time for things like Frog Song.

I think it's obvious he loses here lol.

and honestly, even Tsunade has a small chance to solo herself as @dergeist pointed out

Reactions: Like 3


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## Danisor (Oct 31, 2020)

They probably win with Oro's ET.


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## hbcaptain (Oct 31, 2020)

He can't beat all three of them at once.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 31, 2020)

Still no explanations provided for how Ei3 doesn’t blitz and slaughter Jiraiya at start battle

Additionally I saw featless katsuyu acid and snake teeth bite delivered poison being brought up as the premise to defeat A3, the most durable fighter in the ninja class, so I got my laugh for the day

Another day, another fandom hanging hats on a title, as if the strongest Raikage or strongest shield and spear aren’t title enough to contest Sannin title in a who’s nickname is superior contest

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Symmetry (Oct 31, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> Still no explanations provided for how Ei3 doesn’t blitz and slaughter Jiraiya at start battle



Dude couldn’t even blitz Dodai, there’s no explanation needed. He’s fast, but not to the point where he’s cleanly blitzing mid kage. He’s simply way faster then them, but not so fast they can’t see or react to him, as Dodai showed

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## DaVizWiz (Oct 31, 2020)

Orochimaru op said:


> Dude couldn’t even blitz Dodai, there’s no explanation needed. He’s fast, but not to the point where he’s cleanly blitzing mid kage. He’s simply way faster then them, but not so fast they can’t see or react to him, as Dodai showed


Blitzed Gyuki repeatedly, dodged FRS which has the fastest speed calc in the entire serialization IIRC

Being an average kage doesn’t mean you can suddenly avoid fast attacks with zero knowledge

I have no idea where you got the notion that power scale has anything to do with a ninja’s ability to survive being teleported in front of Ei3 randomly and having no clue what’s going on, then being rushed by Nukite

This is a wholly unique challenge that no one in the manga ever had to deal with, this simulation is designed to kill kage levels

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## Symmetry (Oct 31, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> Blitzed Gyuki repeatedly


Where did he blitz Gyuki?




DaVizWiz said:


> dodged FRS which has the fastest speed calc in the entire serialization IIRC


I don’t care for Calculations because I know damn well Kishimoto didn’t make them or even think of them.

Temari can react to sound yet Itachi gets hit by it, same with 




DaVizWiz said:


> Being an average kage doesn’t mean you can suddenly avoid fast attacks with zero knowledge


I’m pretty sure everybody knows who the third Raikage is, at least anybody in the sannin’s generation for sure, If Dodoai can react, Jman can react

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## DaVizWiz (Oct 31, 2020)

Orochimaru op said:


> Where did he blitz Gyuki?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When he chopped all of his tails off, and repeatedly prevented him from blowing his village up with a TBB charge

Ok, and a projectile crossing a mountain range in less than a second is a pretty fast projectile, that was thrown at Ei3 when he was in base, without having any knowledge on it, and he still dodged it

Dodai knew who the Raikage was, and had a tremendous head start

This says nothing of the fact that just because Dodai reacted doesn’t mean Jiraiya can. You think being a mid kage level automatically gives you great reflexes? Reflexes worthy of vocal praise by Naruto’s clone? No, it doesn’t. I wouldn’t expect Sasori, Kakuzu or Rasa to react to a full blown Nukite blitz without knowledge either. Other mid kage like Deidara and Hebi Sasuke would still be split in half even in they reacted, since avoiding one burst of speed doesn’t automatically make you immune to a follow up attack at closer range. You think we’re playing Pokémon here buddy? Dodge and now it’s your turn? Hahaha no, this is fluid combat and reacting means shit when a juggernaut is still in your grill with a Jedi saber.

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## Symmetry (Oct 31, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> When he chopped all of his tails off, and repeatedly prevented him from blowing his village up with a TBB charge



Since when was hitting your opponent the same as blitzing them? Just because A3 landed attacks on Gyuki doesn’t mean each attack was a blitz lmao.

Also do we know if Gyuki even tried a TBB? We know Shukaku didn’t use it against Gamabunta, and honestly, TBB takes a while to charge so this doesn’t imply a blitz, not that you can even prove Gyuki tried it. 


DaVizWiz said:


> Dodai knee who the Raikage was, and had a tremendous head start
> 
> This says nothing of the fact that just because Dodai reacted doesn’t mean Jiraiya can. You think being a mid kage level automatically gives you great reflexes? Reflexes worthy of vocal praise by Naruto’s clone? No, it doesn’t.


Yea I don’t ascribe to the belief that Dodai has better reactions then base Jman, if Dodai had way better reflexes then base Jman, he would have been a very viable kage candidate and a kage level threat, something he just wasn’t, ever, and never even implied to be.

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## SakuraLover16 (Oct 31, 2020)

I can’t even imagine him holding off all three long enough to kill him when Sage Naruto used his weaker form to incapacitate him even though he lost the speed advantage. I see Tsunade taking him as the main attacker considering she is likely able to physically contend with him based off of her physical strength. Add on Byakugou which makes most potential injuries irrelevant as well as providing a boost to her stats based off the fact that she is now a self healing tank and damage dealer who also buffs teammates. Tsunade can also use medical ninjutsu to kill of cells or Rashinsho to keep him unable to move.

Next you have Orochimaru who has plenty of tricks to stay alive and can become the bane of A3’s existence. Orochimaru provides a direct counter to Ay’s lightning armor with his wind style jutsu and can run interference with his massive snake based AOE’s paired with Kusanagi and if push comes to shove his poison blood should prove useful. Hydra can be used as a last resort to stall as well and should be incredibly hard to put down especially having Tsunade on his ass.

Finally there is Jiraiya who also posses fast and large AOE ninjutsu as well as his heavy use of summons his mobility is also pretty high thanks to his frog friends the game plan would be to stall to enter Sage Mode where all of his techniques are ensured to do some sort of damage. With the increased perception he should be less likely to get hit and even if he does Tsunade is there. Frog call and Frog song are huge game changers that can let them capitalize on created openings.

This is how I see the battle playing out. Tsunade takes the lead in attack her being able to coordinate with a lightened A4 means she has a decent amount of speed to rely on while Orochimaru provides support in taking out the lightning armor while those two are whittling down his durability and chakra by not only blowing off his cloak but Tsunade landing Susanoo rib age busting strength and mystical palm to over replicate cells should the blows not do the damage she wants. While these two are occupying A3 Jiraiya could be going for Sage Mode with his summons providing support once this happens A3 is quickly overwhelmed and killed.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 31, 2020)

Jiraiya dodged Konan's paper missiles in base as well as intercepted Kisame's sword swing with a summon. Dude should scale to Orochimaru in terms of jutsu casting as well as physical speed (he was able to injure Orochimaru using Needle Jizo during the Sannin battle when both men were more or less equally handicapped) - Orochimaru who could summon Triple Rashomon to block a TBB already mid-flight and dodge KN3's chakra arms. No way is J-Man going to be helpless against Ay3's speed lol.

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## Symmetry (Oct 31, 2020)

A3 couldn’t even outspeed Dodai’s handseals jutsu activation, whilst Tsunade cleanly outsped Mei’s jutsu activation, and I refuse to believe Dodai’s jutsu is way faster then Mei’s, yet apparently A3 cleanly blitzed all three and demolishes.

Tsunade also tag team coordinates attacks with V2 A4 and outperforms A4 and Gaara against the Madara susanoo clones (Gaara’s sand could block Enton and A4 btw) but yea all of them get blitzed.

A4’s hyped as being able to dodge FRS, but Pain also reacted to FRS yet got blitzed by Jman twice in SM, yet I don’t see anyone saying SM Jman is near A3 in speed.

Hiruzen arrived on the battlefield at the same time as Tobirama and Hashirama, only beaten by Minato who was called out for arriving first with his travel speed, and Orochimaru cleanly reacts and intercepts Hiruzen’s top speed from a distance of 5M, the same top speed that let him beat Edo Tobirama to BM Naruto to fend off the godtree and also the same top speed that let him arrive on the same time as the senju brothers.

Orochimaru had no qualms about fighting Sasori whilst heavily sick even though he has the IS, sand which is at minimum as fast as Gaara’s sand which, again, could block Enton and keep up with A4’s speed, and also equal Deidara’s speed who equaled Ohnoki’s flight speed who was also able to keep up with A4 and lighten him and react to him.

Yet A3 easily blitzed all three like nothing and wins.

LMAO


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## Symmetry (Oct 31, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Jiraiya dodged Konan's paper missiles in base as well as intercepted Kisame's sword swing with a summon. Dude should scale to Orochimaru in terms of jutsu casting as well as physical speed (he was able to injure Orochimaru using Needle Jizo during the Sannin battle when both men were more or less equally handicapped) - Orochimaru who could summon Triple Rashomon to block a TBB already mid-flight and dodge KN3's chakra arms. No way is J-Man going to be helpless against Ay3's speed lol.


Kn4 chakra arms actually, and it was heavily nerfed Orochimaru too. I also don’t see why FRS is massively faster then TBB. If anything, TBB is more compact chakra and shot out with more force like an actually missile instead of just thrown


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## Turrin (Oct 31, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> more like crazy overestimated lol
> 
> 
> I mean A3 scales to v1 Ayy speeds at best, as that's what KCM Naruto remembered when he first engaged in him. He didn't remember V2 Ayy he only remembered V1 Ayy. Which fits with A3's strongest shield and strongest spear hype. He was never hyped as fastest shinobi like his son was.
> ...


When did I even talk about speed? Glad to see your straw-mans are still in full effect. But Yeah Ei3 casual speed is at RCM1 level, when Slower as an Edo. Likely he is faster when at Max Speed and Alive.
—-
He got hit by SM Rasengan and all it did was push his arm not pushing him back. He can take most of their attacks without budging; and sure they may be able to hold out for Frog-Song, but Jiriaya needs to go SM here too; and Ei3 has full knowledge so he’s going to be gunning for them from the jump.

Heck he might be able to easily just seal all 3 Sannin in the Amber Jar as none of them scale to Hachibi who he easily sealed.

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## Symmetry (Oct 31, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> and they can't deal with his speed either.



Why not Maru? Unless I’m mistaken you agree the sannin, or at least SM Jman and Orochimaru can beat A4, and A4 is way faster then A3. A3 is basically V1 A4. Jugo (with great difficulty yes) reacted to A4, and Dodai cleanly reacted to and intercepted A3 with a jutsu, and Dodai wasn’t even considered to be a kage level threat once in the entire manga. Literally never.



MaruUchiha said:


> Tsunade and Orochimaru get shredded by Hell Stab


Orochimaru doesn’t even need oral rebirth for cutting as he showed vs kn4



MaruUchiha said:


> or Black Lightning,


Futon




MaruUchiha said:


> Orochimaru said he can't even regen from attacks on the level of 1 Finger Hell Stab.



Orochimaru can’t regen from TBB because it literally just atomizes him. 1 finger hell stab cuts him. Even if he’s cut in half he negs it, the two aren’t comparable



MaruUchiha said:


> Even if Jiraiya manages Sage Mode he won't have the speed to run away for Frog Song



A3’s biggest claim to fame is dodging a FRS, but Pain did the exact same thing, yet was blitzed by SM Jman TWICE

and while this is controversial, I don’t see why a kn4 TBB wouldn’t be comparable to FRS, as it’s more dense chakra that’s more potent and shot out like a canon instead of thrown, and Orochimaru while deathly ill reacted to that neg diff. I don’t see Dodai being way faster then Orochimaru given this, and Jman straight up scales to A3 in speed with FRS.

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## ThirdRidoku (Oct 31, 2020)

Turrin said:


> When did I even talk about speed? Glad to see your straw-mans are still in full effect. But Yeah Ei3 casual speed is at RCM1 level, when Slower as an Edo. Likely he is faster when at Max Speed and Alive.


Great we on the same page.


Turrin said:


> He got hit by SM Rasengan and all it did was push his arm not pushing him back.


why would hitting his arm push anything back other than his arm in that context? The arm was redirected into his chest, so obviously it wouldn't move his entire body.



Turrin said:


> . He can take most of their attacks without budging;


such as...?


Turrin said:


> Heck he might be able to easily just seal all 3 Sannin in the Amber Jar as none of them scale to Hachibi who he easily sealed.


The hachibi had to be restrained for that first.

And I'm pretty sure Tsunade knows about the six paths tools.
527-page-5
529-page-7

So nah it isn't happening.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 31, 2020)

Orochimaru op said:


> Since when was hitting your opponent the same as blitzing them? Just because A3 landed attacks on Gyuki doesn’t mean each attack was a blitz lmao.
> 
> Also do we know if Gyuki even tried a TBB? We know Shukaku didn’t use it against Gamabunta, and honestly, TBB takes a while to charge so this doesn’t imply a blitz, not that you can even prove Gyuki tried it.
> 
> Yea I don’t ascribe to the belief that Dodai has better reactions then base Jman, if Dodai had way better reflexes then base Jman, he would have been a very viable kage candidate and a kage level threat, something he just wasn’t, ever, and never even implied to be.


So he got his wingspan within range of Gyuki by not blitzing him? What happened then, Gyuki walked up the Raikage every time he wanted to use TBB and that’s how the Raikage stopped it? Dis Gyuki stick his tails out for the Raikage to cut every time?


Orochimaru op said:


> Since when was hitting your opponent the same as blitzing them? Just because A3 landed attacks on Gyuki doesn’t mean each attack was a blitz lmao.
> 
> Also do we know if Gyuki even tried a TBB? We know Shukaku didn’t use it against Gamabunta, and honestly, TBB takes a while to charge so this doesn’t imply a blitz, not that you can even prove Gyuki tried it.
> 
> Yea I don’t ascribe to the belief that Dodai has better reactions then base Jman, if Dodai had way better reflexes then base Jman, he would have been a very viable kage candidate and a kage level threat, something he just wasn’t, ever, and never even implied to be.


Why wouldn’t it try a TBB. Someone is cutting his tails off and we know he tried it later on in that battle.

So Gyuki just stood there and let Ei3 cut his tails off. When Gyuki was trying to use TBB he just like the Raikage smack him to cancel it?

You can subscribe to any belief you want but the notion that the Raikage can’t land an attack on arguably dumpster tier speedster kage like Base Jiraiya is absurd. His only offense is melee based attacks so what you’re doing is implying that Ei3 is so weak that he basically can’t touch the slowest of the slow. So who can he touch? Who’s the strongest person this RnY cloaked kage that is entirely dependent on touching someone to win can touch? Can he beat anyone in the kage tier? Is this guy really that weak? Why all the hype then?

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## Mithos (Oct 31, 2020)

The Third Raikage loses, and he does so _badly_. 

He can't pressure the Legendary Sannin at all. We saw that the Shinobi Alliance soldiers had no problem responding to the Third Raikage's attacks: foot soliders obscuring line of sight with an _Earth Encampment Wall_ (and could have avoided the attack if they had headed the warning to get out of way); Temari and soliders knocking the Third Raikage down with _Wind Style: Wind Net_, injuring the Third Raikage in the process; and Dodai intercepting Ay's attack on Naruto with his _Lava Style: Rubber Ball Technique_... 

The Third Raikage's speed is just not enough here. The Sannin will have no problem reacting to his attacks, especially when working together to protect their teammates. Most of the Sannin's attacks won't deal much, if any, damage to the Raikage, but they will impede him or knock him down, making them effective when used defensively. The Sannin have a plethora of options to interrupt the Third Raikage's attacks, stun him, bind him, or knock him down: Orochimaru's _Wind Style: Great Breakthrough_ (or other Wind Style techniques he has); Jiraiya's _Earth Style: Swamp of the Underworld_; Tsunade breaking the ground underneath the Raikage, disrupting his footing; _Formation of Ten Thousand Snakes_, which the Third Raikage has no convenient way to deal with; Orochimaru's _Many Striking Shadow Snakes_ to bind the Raikage and create openings, which should work given Orochimaru was able to restrain Enma; Katsuyu or her clones acting as obstacles for the Raikage to go through or around; as well as _Shadow Clones_, smoke bombs or other line of sight blockers, _Toad Silhouette Technique_, and other feints to confuse him.

Basically, any time the Raikage tries to attack one of the Sannin, he will either fall for a feint or be knocked back by the target or their allies and summons. The only resistance he can offer is his abnormal durability protecting him. However, even this is overrated. We saw him take moderate wounds from Temari and the soldiers' Wind Style, for example, so Orochimaru should be able to cut him with the Sword of Kusanagi, especially if Orochimaru pins him with _Kusanagi: Longsword of the Sky_. Tsunade's Susano'o cracking punches and Susano'o shattering kicks should deal at least moderate damage. 

Then, the Sannin have multiple ways to subdue him by bypassing his durability altogether: Tsunade's _Body Pathway Derangement_ to scramble his nerves, essentially rendering him helpless, or her _Mystical Palm Technique_ to put him into a coma; Orochimaru or Jiraiya's _Five-Element Seal_ to disrupt the Raikage's ability to mold chakra, likely canceling or interferring with the _Lightning Armor_; Jiraiya's _Toad Gourd Prison_ to trap the Raikage; _Frog Call_ or _Frog Song_, if Jiraiya decides to enter Sage Mode (he doesn't need to, though). Some of these techniques will require openings to land, but that's not a problem since the Sannin will have little trouble knocking the Raikage down, feinting him, or binding him with Orochimaru's snakes to make those opportunities. 

Early on the Sannin are going to realize the Raikage's durability is an obstacle and use their versatility and legendary teamwork to find ways around it (some examples mentioned above), or they'll start to wear him down over time with chip damage from their attacks. The Raikage is no offensive threat here; he's outgunned, outclassed, and just doesn't have the tools to deal with their move-sets. Sooner rather than later, the Sannin will overcome his durability, which is the only obstacle that gives them any pause, and defeat him. 

The Sannin win, little to no difficulty.

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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Oct 31, 2020)

Tsunade would get impaled trading blows with him a few times and eventually just grab him, take him to the ground, and choke him to death.

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## ThirdRidoku (Oct 31, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> So he got his wingspan within range of Gyuki by not blitzing him?


this is just an assumption. We have seen Taka evade Gyuki's bijuu dama beam. If they could do that then so can A3
With sidestep, and debris from explosion, its easy to see how he can get behind Gyuki and cut off all his tails. Not as hard as you are making it out to be. There were dust clouds at the end of their last fight, my guy.



DaVizWiz said:


> You can subscribe to any belief you want but the notion that the Raikage can’t land an attack on arguably dumpster tier speedster kage like Base Jiraiya is absurd. H*is only offense is melee based attacks so what you’re doing is implying that Ei3 is so weak that he basically can’t touch the slowest of the slow. So who can he touch? Who’s the strongest person this RnY cloaked kage that is entirely dependent on touching someone to win can touch? Can he beat anyone in the kage tier? Is this guy really that weak? Why all the hype then?*




Desperation lol.


A3 can likely beat Base Jiraiya more times than not but the idea he is blitzing him without reaction is absurd.

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## Hina uzumaki (Oct 31, 2020)

HOPE YOU GUYS REALIZE THERE IS NO RESTRICTION ON USAGE OF AMBER JAR

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Oct 31, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Great we on the same page.
> 
> why would hitting his arm push anything back other than his arm in that context? The arm was redirected into his chest, so obviously it wouldn't move his entire body.
> 
> ...





ThirdRidoku said:


> *The hachibi had to be restrained for that first.
> 
> 
> And I'm pretty sure Tsunade knows about the six paths tools.
> ...





Hina uzumaki said:


> HOPE YOU GUYS REALIZE THERE IS NO RESTRICTION ON USAGE OF AMBER JAR


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## t0xeus (Oct 31, 2020)

Ei3 high diffs

Tanks everything and eventually tags everyone with Nukite until they can't regen back

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## Hina uzumaki (Oct 31, 2020)

Are you sure she knows the intricacies behind how the tools work? for all we know, she may just know they can use the tool and be oblivious to how the weapons work


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## Gin Ichimaru (Oct 31, 2020)

They can't scratch him or outlast him

He blows through all of them with finger

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## ThirdRidoku (Oct 31, 2020)

Hina uzumaki said:


> Are you sure she knows the intricacies behind how the tools work? for all we know, she may just know they can use the tool and be oblivious to how the weapons work


She knows that the amber pot works by responding to when your name is called as of the  edo Kin/Gin fight

So if we going by manga knowledge then she knows enough.

And the method A3 used to seal Hachibi required to be immobilized first.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 31, 2020)

My goodness.

It's one thing to say Ay3 can beat any Sannin individually - he can - but all three AT ONCE?

Do people even read the manga or do they space out when it comes to characters that aren't ''flashy''?


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## deltaniner (Nov 1, 2020)

Sannin take him down after a long fight.

I put A3 above each of the Sannin individually, but not all at once. He takes at least one down (Possibly Jiraiya, who doesn't have the retarded levels of sheer endurance Oro and Tsunade have), but then gets taken down.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 1, 2020)

deltaniner said:


> I put A3 above each of the Sannin individually, but not all at once. He takes at least one down (Possibly Jiraiya, who doesn't have the *retarded* levels of sheer endurance Oro and Tsunade have), but then gets taken down.



Jiraiya's literally the dude who willed himself back to consciousness long enough to write a final message to the Hidden Leaf Village in spite of being fatally wounded and survived KN4 Naruto's (venomous) claw strike. He also happens to have a medic on this team. I think you're underestimating him and the team both here.


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## deltaniner (Nov 1, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Jiraiya's literally the dude who willed himself back to consciousness long enough to write a final message to the Hidden Leaf Village in spite of being fatally wounded and survived KN4 Naruto's (venomous) claw strike. He also happens to have a medic on this team. I think you're underestimating him and the team both here.


I meant more in the sense of "He doesn't have immortality up his sleeve." He's pretty tanky compared to most ninja, but unlike Tsunade and Oro, if he gets a bad hit, he can't fix it himself.

And, looking back at the OP to see A3 has full knowledge, it's not outside the realm of possibility for him to go for the medic first.


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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 1, 2020)

deltaniner said:


> I meant more in the sense of "He doesn't have immortality up his sleeve." He's pretty tanky compared to most ninja, but unlike Tsunade and Oro, if he gets a bad hit, he can't fix it himself.
> 
> And, looking back at the OP to see A3 has full knowledge, it's not outside the realm of possibility for him to go for the medic first.


I personally don’t feel like going for the medic here will be a viable strategy considering she is not only resilient and durable but also because you aren’t getting a hit in for free.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 1, 2020)

deltaniner said:


> I meant more in the sense of "He doesn't have immortality up his sleeve." He's pretty tanky compared to most ninja, but unlike Tsunade and Oro, if he gets a bad hit, he can't fix it himself.
> 
> And, looking back at the OP to see A3 has full knowledge, it's not outside the realm of possibility for him to go for the medic first.



True enough, but he can defend himself in case that's an issue. 

Also, well, he can't exactly kill Tsunade or Orochimaru here outside of outlasting them.


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## TheOmega (Nov 1, 2020)

Swamp of the underworld his goofass and laugh as he sinks into never never land


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 1, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> this is just an assumption. We have seen Taka evade Gyuki's bijuu dama beam. If they could do that then so can A3
> With sidestep, and debris from explosion, its easy to see how he can get behind Gyuki and cut off all his tails. Not as hard as you are making it out to be. There were dust clouds at the end of their last fight, my guy.
> 
> 
> ...


Evading has nothing to do with it. They were fighting in Kumohagure so Ei3 evading doesn’t do anything for him, the village and the civilians he was fighting for would be utterly destroyed around him. Every time Gyuki tried to blow him up he slashed him up with his Nukite to stop it from firing. This a tremendous achievement, very few ninja would be able to consistently and fully prevent TBB use in a battle against a raging bijuu from start to finish, and survive to defeat the bijuu while doing it. Or do you think Kumo got destroyed in that battle and the manga failed to mention it? Lol

You’re cherry picking parts of my argument to respond to, and you’re calling me desperate? You’ve got to be kidding me.

It’s absurd? Lol, his whole gimmick is based on the prospect of blitzing and slashing an opponent. If he can’t do this to Base Jiraiya than he’s a very weak ninja, far from where most rank him and where he has been portrayed.

Debaters like you think even Ei4 would have issues blitzing mid kage, leaving him with absolutely nothing to work with. A melee only speedster who can’t even blitz an average kage is not a mid kage, yet you would still inexplicably rank him as a mid kage. Like huh? If all the guy can do is chase around kage and  miss them most of the time why the hell would he be a middle tier kage? It’s gut wrenching to read nonsense takes like that.

What you’re saying is similar to someone claiming The Flash is still in the same tier as Wonder Woman, but he wouldn’t blitz Batman. What? How? All the guy has is speed wtf is he doing in monster all around wonder woman’s tier if the fucker can’t speed blitz a god damn human in a bodysuit?

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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 1, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> Evading has nothing to do with it. They were fighting in Kumohagure so Ei3 evading doesn’t do anything for him, the village and the civilians he was fighting for would be utterly destroyed. Every time Gyuki tried to blow him and his village up he slashed him up with his Nukite to stop it. This a tremendous achievement, very few ninja would be able to consistently and fully prevent TBB use in a battle against a raging bijuu from start to finish, and defeat the survive to defeat the bijuu while doing it.


Fighting in Kumo doesn't mean the village/civilians were in harms way, unless you have evidence.

Look at where Killer Bee was locked up. He was in his own wasteland in Kumo for the very reason  that if he needs to use bijuu dama it was unlikely that it would induce friendly fire. No civilians were harmed when used TBB on Taka.

The way I interpreted it is that A3 is fast enough to evade it or his armor is strong enough to  tank it, given that we have seen even Gyuki tank it's own Bijuu damas despite being cut by kunai/shurikens and chidori.

and even Suigetsu survived a TBB though was knocked unconscious, with his true water form in tandem with water source.

So A3 is likely durable enough to partially tank TBB while sidestepping it with his V1 A4 speeds, getting into blindspot with help of the debris created, and the cut off tails and rinse repeat until both he and the bijuu were exhausted.

Nothing he accomplished against the 8 tails is somehow gonna help him deal with 3 Sannin lol.




DaVizWiz said:


> You’re cherry picking parts of my argument to respond to, and you’re calling me desperate? You’ve got to be kidding me.



lol i read everything you said though. But I was saying the bolded parts were desperation lol. You somehow jumped from A3 not being able to destroy Base Jiraiya with ease to meaning we are saying A3 is useless and a jonin level that had no hype.



or you can  now admit that while A3 is portrayed as powerful and we aren't saying he isn't, but can also show some respect for the Sannin as well and not treat them as fodder when they have their own hype and portrayal and feats that you cherry picked, or ignored rather lol, and especially as a group they are more than a rival to A3.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 1, 2020)

None of the Sannin can hurt him, none of them can react to him and IF they can it is with GREAT difficulty and as a result are NEVER keeping pace with him on anything resembling even ground and have insane difficulty even TOUCHING him, none can take a hit from him, and they cant outlast him

But somehow people think the Sannin win this

Its truly astonishing 

The "none can hurt him" bit is really the most interesting to me as its always ignored or people say beyond stupid shit like "Oros garbage base Fuuton will remove RnY and oneshot him where Narutos world class top tier Fuuton amped by Kyuubi chakra could do NOTHING" 

A3 legit has the feats to sit IN ONE SPOT for 3 days and 3 nights STRAIGHT and ALLOW the Sannin to hit him with ANY PHYSICAL ATTACK THEY HAVE over and over again, and hed STILL BEAT THEM as they unlike him CANT FIGHT THAT LONG.

Yet again, I reiterate, people think the Sannin win this.

I will never not scratch my head when this thread gets brought up

Without "hurr durr ETs outlast gg" or "hurr durr Edo BM Minato oneshots" there is literally 0 argument for the sannin accomplishing anything at all here.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 1, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> KN4 Kurama >>>>Hachibi


Holy FUCK that is hella laughable

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 1, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Without "hurr durr ETs outlast gg" or "hurr durr Edo BM Minato oneshots" there is literally 0 argument for the sannin accomplishing anything at all here.


I guess this genius has never heard of the following combos lol:

A) Sage Art: Frog Song + Orochimaru feeding him KN4 restraining or poisonous snakes + Earth Style: Yellow Spring Swamp

B) Fukasaku and Shima's Sage Art: Frog Call + Tsunade's Strength of a Hundred Seal + Jiraiya's Sage Art: Ultra Big Ball Rasengan

C) Fukasaku and Shima's Sage Art: Frog Call + Tsunade's Strength of a Hundred Seal + Orochimaru's Wind Style: Destruction + Jiraiya, Fukasaku, and Shima's Sage Art: Boiling Oil to drown him

Reactions: Funny 1


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## deltaniner (Nov 1, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> They fought KN4 Kurama >>>>Hachibi


Legitimately one of the dumbest posts I've seen on here in a long time.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 1, 2020)

deltaniner said:


> Legitimately one of the dumbest posts I've seen on here in a long time.



He meant Kurama >>>> Gyuki, not KN4 >>>> Gyuki.


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## t0xeus (Nov 1, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Ei draws with Hachibi who is weaker than every Sannin individually as 8 tails is much weaker than Kurama and Jiriaya & Orochimaru damn near best him



imagine thinking this is a good argument

comparing Gyuki to kid KN4 and thinking it's a fair comparison of Gyuki and Kurama

ffs

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Lyren (Nov 1, 2020)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Tsunade would get impaled trading blows with him a few times and eventually just grab him, take him to the ground, and choke him to death.


Implying he can even get through that thick skin of hers which tanked YM with 0 injuries and scales above Onoki/Gaara sand golem 
OT : Tsunade grabs A3 for Jiraiya to turn him into a frog with kaeru no jutsu, low diff
Any sannin can individually solo with real body toxin, Katsuyu and frog song so altogether they murder

Reactions: Like 2 | Lewd 1


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## Turrin (Nov 1, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Great we on the same page.
> 
> why would hitting his arm push anything back other than his arm in that context? The arm was redirected into his chest, so obviously it wouldn't move his entire body.
> 
> ...


When Fused Momoshiki is hit in the arm with Boruto’s Rasengan he is pushed back a bit and off his feet not just his arm. 
That’s a god tier, yet Ei3 took a stronger attack and didn’t get pushed back or off his feet. So yeah makes no sense to expect Ei3 to be pushed back by weaker attacks by the Sannin. 
—-
Someone does not need to be restrained to be sealed with the Jar, see Kinkaku. Hachibi was simply restrained as they were trying to slow it down prior to Ei3 sealing it. Also Ei3 doesn’t even need the word game he just forms a seal and can seal his target.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Hina uzumaki (Nov 1, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Implying he can even get through that thick skin of hers which tanked YM with 0 injuries and scales above Onoki/Gaara sand golem
> OT : Tsunade grabs A3 for Jiraiya to turn him into a frog with kaeru no jutsu, low diff
> Any sannin can individually solo with real body toxin, Katsuyu and frog song so altogether they murder


Amber jar GG


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## Lyren (Nov 1, 2020)

Hina uzumaki said:


> Amber jar GG


Ok


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## Hina uzumaki (Nov 1, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Ok


What...No counter arguments like Tsunade slaps the Jar back to Hagoromo's time?

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Lyren (Nov 1, 2020)

Hina uzumaki said:


> What...No counter arguments like Tsunade slaps the Jar back to Hagoromo's time?


Ok..?


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 1, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> imagine thinking this is a good argument
> 
> comparing Gyuki to kid KN4 and thinking it's a fair comparison of Gyuki and Kurama
> 
> ffs



What is kid KN4 ? , it was stated in the manga not my head cannon Kurama is far far stronger than Hachibi , just think Jiriaya one shot Kisame , yet Kisame was able to defeat Bee .

Reactions: Winner 1 | Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 1, 2020)

That moment when @Turrin uses BORUTO and its ass tier powerscaling to make a point about NARUTO.


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## t0xeus (Nov 1, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> What is kid KN4 ? , it was stated in the manga not my head cannon Kurama is far far stronger than Hachibi , just think Jiriaya one shot Kisame , yet Kisame was able to defeat Bee .


KN4 is not Kurama.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 1, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> KN4 is not Kurama.


He's not Gyuki either.


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> a god tier, yet Ei3 took a stronger attack and didn’t get pushed back or off his feet. So yeah makes no sense to expect Ei3 to be pushed back by weaker attacks by the Sannin.



false equivalence. Naruto hit A3's outstretched arm so fast it curled in and hit  A3's own chest. Do you see Momoshiki's arm curling in from that rasengan, no? Then false equivalence. Once A3's arm curled in it the direction of its momentum change , and curling in your arm toward yourself doesn't shift the rest of your body dude.



Turrin said:


> Someone does not need to be restrained to be sealed with the Jar, see Kinkaku.



for the Word game yes



Turrin said:


> achibi was simply restrained as they were trying to slow it down prior to Ei3 sealing it. Also Ei3 doesn’t even need the word game he just forms a seal and can seal his target.




Lol, what A3 did here wasn't the word game, and we see he had the jar the whole time yet had his soliders restrain the hachibi first before using this. 

He forms the seal and seals the target once they are restrained, yes. What he did here =/= word game because obviously we don't see him calling Hachibi's name out nor the Hachibi responding to being called.


Otherwise he needs the word game, which the Sannin aren't falling for.




DaVizWiz said:


> Debaters like you think even Ei4 would have issues blitzing mid kage, leaving him with absolutely nothing to work with. A melee only speedster who can’t even blitz an average kage is not a mid kage, yet you would still inexplicably rank him as a mid kage. Like huh? If all the guy can do is chase around kage and miss them most of the time why the hell would he be a middle tier kage? It’s gut wrenching to read nonsense takes like that.
> 
> What you’re saying is similar to someone claiming The Flash is still in the same tier as Wonder Woman, but he wouldn’t blitz Batman. What? How? All the guy has is speed wtf is he doing in monster all around wonder woman’s tier if the fucker can’t speed blitz a god damn human in a bodysuit?



Lol I only saw this edit just now.

and Yes A4's speed is overrated. If being the fastest alive on its own was some GG button then he should be founder tier. But he is not.
V2 A4 can blitz base Jiraiya but A4 doesn't start in V2 in any neutral stipulation unless you have rep of being the fastest (Minato) or its fucking Madara Uchiha lol

Your mistake though is comparing V2 A4 (or even the fucking Flash lmao, who is easily the fastest character in DC and speed is his shtick) to A3, when the former has hype of being the fastest shinobi ever.

A3's claim to fame is the strongest shield and strongest spear, with the spear causing a huge scratch on said armor even when simply falling down on it by accident, and the physical strength and stamina to beat down a bijuu until they are both equally exhausted.

He doesn't have speed hype or feats on par with his son. He is fast and reflexive, but nowhere near as fast as you are claiming.


Unfortunately, A3 is up against two durable regeneration types and while he may beat Base Jiraiya more times than not that does not jump up to beating Base Jiraiya with backup lmao.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Turrin (Nov 1, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> That moment when @Turrin uses BORUTO and its ass tier powerscaling to make a point about NARUTO.


You mean a Scene from Boruto the movie which was written by Kishimoto? Also just because you can’t understand Boruto scaling doesn’t mean it’s ass tier, it just means your not very good at scaling...


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## Turrin (Nov 1, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> false equivalence. Naruto hit A3's outstretched arm so fast it curled in and hit  A3's own chest. Do you see Momoshiki's arm curling in from that rasengan, no? Then false equivalence. Once A3's arm curled in it the direction of its momentum change , and curling in your arm toward yourself doesn't shift the rest of your body dude.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1- I’m not talking about the effect on the arm I’m talking about how the force of Rasengan lifted Momoshiki off his feet, but not Ei3.

2- It seals them the same way, so why would there be a difference? Can you please show me any evidence of them needing to be restrained as your just making that up.


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## t0xeus (Nov 1, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> He's not Gyuki either.


Wat


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 1, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> KN4 is not Kurama.



Yeah but guess what Orochimaru and Jiriaya didn’t even fight KN4 at their best and both in their own way were holding back and were heavily restricted

Reactions: Agree 3


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## t0xeus (Nov 1, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Yeah but guess what Orochimaru and Jiriaya didn’t even fight KN4 at their best and both in their own way were holding back and were heavily restricted


So that makes up for the power difference between KN4 and Kurama in your mind?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 1, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Wat


What?


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## t0xeus (Nov 1, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> What?


Who is not Gyuki either?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 1, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Who is not Gyuki either?


You.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Turrin (Nov 1, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Yeah but guess what Orochimaru and Jiriaya didn’t even fight KN4 at their best and both in their own way were holding back and were heavily restricted


Yeah and Hachibi is like dozens of times stronger then Kn4, so why does that matter. It’s like saying well Neji fought P1 Naruto so he must be able to take on BM Naruto


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 2, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yeah and Hachibi is like dozens of times stronger then Kn4, so why does that matter. It’s like saying well Neji fought P1 Naruto so he must be able to take on BM Naruto


How when Kurama is much much stronger than Hachibi that would mean 

Hachibi is close to the higher end forms of Kurama and that just wasn’t the case so in essence yes KN4 is closer to Hachibi than Hachibi is to the 8-9 tails of Kurama .


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## Symmetry (Nov 2, 2020)

DaVizWiz said:


> So he got his wingspan within range of Gyuki by not blitzing him?


Possible yes, Deva didn't blitz Gamabunta but could still run around on his body outspeeding the toad. The size difference makes a huge deal.


DaVizWiz said:


> What happened then, Gyuki walked up the Raikage every time he wanted to use TBB and that’s how the Raikage stopped it? Dis Gyuki stick his tails out for the Raikage to cut every time?


Why couldn't A3 just dodge it? taka did it, and A3 is faster than them.  I'll use the Gamabunta Deva example again, A3 could easily run around on Gyuki's body and use his small size to his advantage, this doesn't mean he blitzed him.


DaVizWiz said:


> Why wouldn’t it try a TBB. Someone is cutting his tails off and we know he tried it later on in that battle.


IDK ask Shukaku, dude had his arm ripped off and didn't even think of it. Maybe because BD takes a while to charge and A3 is faster than
Gyuki?? 

Just a thought, but perhaps standing still and charging up an attack against a faster opponent isn't a good idea? This isn't DBZ you know.


DaVizWiz said:


> You can subscribe to any belief you want but the notion that the Raikage can’t land an attack on arguably dumpster tier speedster kage like Base Jiraiya is absurd.



Where did I say A3 can NEVER land a hit on Base Jman. I said the idea that he just neg diff blitzes Jman AND his two teammates at the same time and just oneshots isn't going to happen, not that Base Jman will always and forever avoid A3 lol. Also your calling  Jman a dumpster tier kage in speed whilst he's being compared to a fucking jounin.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Symmetry (Nov 2, 2020)

FYI I'm the Orochimaru stan but in no universe is Kn4 > The FULL eight tails

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 2, 2020)

I don't think anyone here has said KN4 > Gyuki, just that Kurama >>>> Gyuki so stronger forms of J-Man and Orochimaru than the ones who canonically held their own against KN4 could defeat the Third Raikage (I assume especially when they're working together).


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## blk (Nov 2, 2020)

ITT the guy that can't be hit, can't be hurt, can't be dodged and whose attacks can't be tanked somehow loses 





Mithos said:


> The Third Raikage loses, and he does so _badly_.
> 
> He can't pressure the Legendary Sannin at all. We saw that the Shinobi Alliance soldiers had no problem responding to the Third Raikage's attacks: foot soliders obscuring line of sight with an _Earth Encampment Wall_ (and could have avoided the attack if they had headed the warning to get out of way); Temari and soliders knocking the Third Raikage down with _Wind Style: Wind Net_, injuring the Third Raikage in the process; and Dodai intercepting Ay's attack on Naruto with his _Lava Style: Rubber Ball Technique_...
> 
> ...



Goddamn you love your wall of text fanfics man

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 2, 2020)

Turrin said:


> - I’m not talking about the effect on the arm I’m talking about how the force of Rasengan lifted Momoshiki off his feet, but not Ei3.


And I'm saying the two scenes aren't comparable. A3 was charging straight ahead at Naruto, and the arm was curled into Ei3's chest, stopping his momentum.




Turrin said:


> 2- It seals them the same way, so why would there be a difference? Can you please show me any evidence of them needing to be restrained as your just making that up.




How does it seal the same way when in one case the bijuu was being restrained and it only required hand seals and in the other no restraints required just a word game?



blk said:


> TT the guy that can't be hit



citation needed. He scales to V1 ei4 who we have seen get hit when outnumbered


blk said:


> , can't be hurt


Sannin have BFR and Genjutsu options, and Tsunade who can boost Sannin jutsu to unholy levels.




blk said:


> can't be dodged



citation needed when he is reacted by Dodai. He has no feats of blitzing anyone and scales to V1 Ei who could reacted to by elite Jonins in taka. 



blk said:


> whose attacks can't be tanked somehow loses




Two regenerators with decent durability feats won't tank it but will survive it. Jiraiya is the only one who can't take an attack, but there is no reason to think A3 can tag him  3v1.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 2, 2020)

blk said:


> ITT the guy that can't be hit, can't be hurt, can't be dodged and whose attacks can't be tanked somehow loses


Who's that supposed to be? It sure ain't Ay3, that I can tell you.

Ay3 _can_ be hit (_and dodged_). We saw KCM Naruto's clone hit him and we saw SM Naruto's clone dodge him. As high level those clones are in battle, the Legendary Sannin are three High Kage level opponents with above-average to high levels of speed themselves as well as synergy. Orochimaru dodged KN3 and, to an extent, KN4. Dude can also literally restrain Ay3 with KN4-binding snakes if the dude gets too close, no dodging required. Tsunade with her ability to read attack patterns and equal or slightly superior performance to Ay3's son against Madara's Susano'o clones shows that she can keep up with that level of speed if not match it. Jiraiya can use Toad Oil Bombs - without handseals! - to slow Ay3 down and then dodge him or use Wild Lion's Mane to do it instead - in base.

Ay3 _can_ be hurt. Temari and her division did just that to Ay3 once they caught him with his armor off.

Ay3_ can_ be tanked. I especially have to lol at the fact you think Orochimaru and Tsunade have anything to fear from this dude lol - Jiraiya does (on his lonesome), yes, but he's the only one. The other two are regen monsters who laugh off getting ripped in half or lost limbs.


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 2, 2020)

Why is the third Raikage rated so highly lol.

I mean the dude is badass but like why he is this unstoppable, immovable , unhurtable, undodgeable force

where in the manga was this portrayed lol


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 2, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Why is the third Raikage rated so highly lol.
> 
> I mean the dude is badass but like why he is this unstoppable, immovable , unhurtable, undodgeable force
> 
> where in the manga was this portrayed lol



He was portrayed as the first two things but not the last two. Temari hurt him and he was dodged or reacted to for sure.


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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 2, 2020)

My argument was good right?


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 2, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> He was portrayed as the first two things but not the last two. Temari hurt him and he was dodged or reacted to for sure.



But we legit have arguments that the Sannin attacks won't even BUDGE his body lmao, pure nonsense.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 2, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> But we legit have arguments that the Sannin attacks won't even BUDGE his body lmao, pure nonsense.



Yeah, that's just dumb.

Not surprised it's Turrin and blk saying this stuff.


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## Shizune (Nov 2, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yeah, that's just dumb.
> 
> Not surprised it's Turrin and blk saying this stuff.


You have a really... weird fixation on some of the people who post here.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Turrin (Nov 2, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> How when Kurama is much much stronger than Hachibi that would mean
> 
> Hachibi is close to the higher end forms of Kurama and that just wasn’t the case so in essence yes KN4 is closer to Hachibi than Hachibi is to the 8-9 tails of Kurama .


How is Hachibi not closer to the higher end forms of Kurama? Hachibi Continous TBB, scales above everything V2 Kurama has ever shown. It only becomes debatable at KN8.


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## Turrin (Nov 2, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> And I'm saying the two scenes aren't comparable. A3 was charging straight ahead at Naruto, and the arm was curled into Ei3's chest, stopping his momentum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) Why wasn’t Ei3 pushed off his feat like Momoshiki. Your not explaining this, your just repeating yourself. Are you going to just slip into Ad Nauseam fallacy

2)  Because your making it up that it requires restrains. Both cases the target was sucked in by the power of the Jar

3) Just to back @blk here Edo E3 scales to Ei4; this means Living Ei3 would scale higher

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 2, 2020)

Turrin said:


> How is Hachibi not closer to the higher end forms of Kurama? Hachibi Continous TBB, scales above everything V2 Kurama has ever shown. It only becomes debatable at KN8.



That’s not what the narrative has shown us it told us Kurama >>>> all of the other tailed beast

let’s say for instance sure Hachibi is 2x strong as KN4 that still would mean Jiriaya and Orochimaru not even using their strongest jutsu = KN4 SM is 2X Jiriaya and Orochimaru with Edo Tensei and 8th Branch 2X Orochimaru in a failin g body and no arms which means even if you low ball Top Form Sannin bro’s they are about  equal to Hachibi which means there is no way on earth Ei3 is beating both of them .

Reactions: Like 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 2, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Why wasn’t Ei3 pushed off his feat like Momoshiki. Your not explaining this, your just repeating yourself. Are you going to just slip into Ad Nauseam fallacy


Momoshiki wasn't moving like Ei3 was. Ei3 was charging at full speed and his own nukite stopped his momentum, so it did move him. If he was standing still instead of running he would have went flying back

A3'S velocity when moving toward Naruto : 50 m/s
Nukite curls into his chest, giving him  a speed of -50 m/s in the other direction

50 -50 equal zero.



Turrin said:


> Because your making it up that it requires restrains. Both cases the target was sucked in by the power of the Jar




Lol and you're ignoring the differences between the scences.

In one scene, Hachibi is restrained and Ei3 casts seals

In next scence, Kinkaku isn't restrained, but no seals are weaven, instead Kinkaku (controlled by Ino)  has to respond to being called.




Turrin said:


> ust to back @blk here Edo E3 scales to Ei4; this means Living Ei3 would scale higher




He scales to v1 Ei, anything else is headcanon dude lol.
He doesn't have the speed hype his son does. 

A4 never said with my father and Minato dead, I'm now the fastest.

A3 never had hype of being fast.
Strongest shield and strongest spear plus bijuu level stamina. That's it.

His son's hype was speed. Kumo didn't even know A4 would be durable enough to survive the light speed travel like his father, that's how emphasized speed was for A4, but mainly durability for his father.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## JayK (Nov 2, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> imagine thinking this is a good argument
> 
> comparing Gyuki to kid KN4 and thinking it's a fair comparison of Gyuki and Kurama
> 
> ffs


this

good post

have some rep, ah shit nvm

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Turrin (Nov 2, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> That’s not what the narrative has shown us it told us Kurama >>>> all of the other tailed beast
> 
> let’s say for instance sure Hachibi is 2x strong as KN4 that still would mean Jiriaya and Orochimaru not even using their strongest jutsu = KN4 SM is 2X Jiriaya and Orochimaru with Edo Tensei and 8th Branch 2X Orochimaru in a failin g body and no arms which means even if you low ball Top Form Sannin bro’s they are about  equal to Hachibi which means there is no way on earth Ei3 is beating both of them .


But your hypothetical is wrong as Hachibi is way stronger then x2 KN4. Again Continous TBB scales over x3 what KN4 showed alone; as each TBB is far stronger then KN4s, and Hachibi fired like three of them on rapid succession and had much more chakra left


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## Turrin (Nov 2, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Momoshiki wasn't moving like Ei3 was. Ei3 was charging at full speed and his own nukite stopped his momentum, so it did move him. If he was standing still instead of running he would have went flying back
> 
> A3'S velocity when moving toward Naruto : 50 m/s
> Nukite curls into his chest, giving him  a speed of -50 m/s in the other direction
> ...


1- Why would Nukite stop his motion it’s just a blade rat went through his chest. Also if Ei3 forward motion counters Rasengan from pushing him back then why would he get pushed back from the Sannin attacks when he’s charging at them?

2- Once again Hachibi being restrained doesn’t mean he has to be for the seal to work

3- Yeah he scales to RCM1 Ei4 when slower as an Edo; so he would be faster when alive. Ei3 is known for his Shield and Spear, since those are his best attributes doesn’t mean he isn’t faster >= Ei4 in speed

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Alita (Nov 2, 2020)

Would favor A3 more often than not. The sannin's only hope here is frog song but jiraiya needs time to go SM and then more time prepare it which I don't see A3 giving them since his raw stats are all higher than theirs.


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 2, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Why would Nukite stop his motion it’s just a blade rat went through his chest. Also if Ei3 forward motion counters Rasengan from pushing him back then why would he get pushed back from the Sannin attacks when he’s charging at them?


He was in practically full speed motion when he gets hit, and stops after getting hit. That's your evidence dude.
A3 won't always be charging at the Sannin is the point, his first charge would be tanked by one of the healers. Tsunade already is close to him in physical strength dude. He gets knocked back lmao.
A3 was knocked back by KCM Naruto's striking with Rasenshuriken, and KCM Naruto's striking strength aren't even enough to one shot Kisame even when moving at top speed. Tsunade scales above max speed V2 A4 striking strength and cracks Madara's Susano'o with more ease than Base Naruto's cho odama rasengan supported by Ohnoki earth style.
I'm not saying Tsunade can push him as far back KCM Rasenshuriken slam can but come on man they can stall him and push him back a bit. while Jiraiya preps SM.





Turrin said:


> Yeah he scales to RCM1 Ei4 when slower as an Edo; so he would be faster when alive. Ei3 is known for his Shield and Spear, since those are his best attributes doesn’t mean he isn’t faster >= Ei4 in speed




No evidence he is faster than V2 A4. KCM Naruto fought V1 Ei and V2 Ei and only recalls V1 Ei after seeing Ei' three's speed.
Edo Tensei were still brought back close to full power.
Even if A3 is secretly as fast or faster, there is no evidence he relied on this speed in battle, he is known for his shield and thus his personality is to rely on his tanking ability.

SM Naruto and KCM Naruto both kept up with his speed without issues, as did Dodai, as did Taka since they could keep up with V1 ayy speed with minor trouble.



Turrin said:


> Once again Hachibi being restrained doesn’t mean he has to be for the seal to work




We see no evidence of it working without the restraints though.
If he can't move then he can't evade the sealing.


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## Turrin (Nov 2, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> He was in practically full speed motion when he gets hit, and stops after getting hit. That's your evidence dude.
> A3 won't always be charging at the Sannin is the point, his first charge would be tanked by one of the healers. Tsunade already is close to him in physical strength dude. He gets knocked back lmao.
> A3 was knocked back by KCM Naruto's striking with Rasenshuriken, and KCM Naruto's striking strength aren't even enough to one shot Kisame even when moving at top speed. Tsunade scales above max speed V2 A4 striking strength and cracks Madara's Susano'o with more ease than Base Naruto's cho odama rasengan supported by Ohnoki earth style.
> I'm not saying Tsunade can push him as far back KCM Rasenshuriken slam can but come on man they can stall him and push him back a bit. while Jiraiya preps SM.
> ...


1- Ei3 main form of attack is charging at someone with Nukite. So most of the time he will be charging the Sannin, and won’t be able to be pushed back. What’s more he has full knowledge here, so he’s going to know he needs to charge Jiriaya first to stop him from entering Sage Mode. So I fail to see how the Sannin stop him form charging Jiriaya and hitting him with Nukite; as your openly admitting they can’t push back charging Ei3

2- The Edos being brought back at close to Full power didn’t stop Tobirama and Madara from being slower as Edos. The same thing will apply to Ei3. So if he’s comparable to RCM1 Ei4, as a slower Edo he is faster then RCM1 Ei4 when alive. As far as RCM2 Ei4 goes, all RCM2 is Ei4 amping his RCM with more chakra, which Ei3 is more then able to do as well. This is why I said he should be >= RCM Ei4.

3- You claim he relies on his tanking ability only but he literally went out of his way to evade FRS, so that simply isn’t true. The rest of your examples only apply to slower Edo Ei3.

4- We literally saw the ability work on an unrestrained Kinkaku. And he couldn’t evade it. Your just making up it requiring restrains


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## SakuraLover16 (Nov 2, 2020)

Hmmm considering that Temari and fodder injured him with wind style attacks I don’t understand why he can’t be injured by the Sannin.


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 2, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Ei3 main form of attack is charging at someone with Nukite. So most of the time he will be charging the Sannin, and won’t be able to be pushed back. What’s more he has full knowledge here, so he’s going to know he needs to charge Jiriaya first to stop him from entering Sage Mode. So I fail to see how the Sannin stop him form charging Jiriaya and hitting him with Nukite; as your openly admitting they can’t push back charging Ei3


Tsunade and Orochimaru together can stall him is the point.



Turrin said:


> The Edos being brought back at close to Full power didn’t stop Tobirama and Madara from being slower as Edos. The same thing will apply to Ei3. So if he’s comparable to RCM1 Ei4, as a slower Edo he is faster then RCM1 Ei4 when alive. As far as RCM2 Ei4 goes, all RCM2 is Ei4 amping his RCM with more chakra, which Ei3 is more then able to do as well. This is why I said he should be >= RCM Ei


It's still at least 90 percent of their full speed dude.

Dodai said A3's resilience was as good as ever and made no mention of him being much slower than he was in life during the battle.

You're acting as if A3 is brought back by P1 Edo Tensei.

RCM2 isn't just amping RCM with more chakra it's ramping it with more chakra and also stacking the Body Flicker technique on top of it, combining the B Rank and D rank techniques.

I'm saying there is just no evidence A3 employed this in life, Dodai only ever harped on his shield spear and stamina not that he was this monstrously fast dude in life lmao.



Turrin said:


> You claim he relies on his tanking ability only but he literally went out of his way to evade FRS, so that simply isn’t true. The rest of your examples only apply to slower Edo Ei3.


and he wasn't moving particularly fast when he did it. his speed is great but again, nothing says he relied on it. The fact that he has this famously durable shield means he got hit in life alot and tanked many attacks and  you know it.  I mean he stood there and tanked attacks from Temari for God sake lol.

Even gyuki's first  recalled memory about him was about his vitality and durability, not his speed lmao.

While A4 the true speedster raikage wasn't coveted at all for his durability, but rather his speed.
Minato knew A4 was super fast before his first fight with him.

And lastly, Kinkaku got hit by the word game lol, not the handseal-sealing method with the amber jar

Why are you assuming the methods are the same?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 3, 2020)

What is up with people these days? Why are we even arguing Ay3 > Ay4 in speed when Ay4 said only Minato was his peer or superior?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 3, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> What is up with people these days? Why are we even arguing Ay3 > Ay4 in speed when Ay4 said only Minato was his peer or superior?


Yeah dude. It's honestly becoming like a meme at this point

A4 wasn't actually the fastest ninja of his time.

Base Bee and his father were both secretly  faster than him the whole time.

We get a narrative statement from A4 that only one other person aside from KCM Naruto had ever outdone his fastest speed, an A4 is pretty honest when it comes to admitting someone is superior to himself once it's proven.

A4 had no reason at all to exclude his father from that statement, someone he obviously cared deeply about given how much he cried on the day of his death.

The whole point was that outspeeding A4 was such an unbelievable feat for Tsunade and Bee ( the latter who also knew A3) that the only conclusion was that Naruto was just like the yellow flash, someone repped with god like speed and being the fastest ever due to his FTG. The speed to outspeed A4 is literally compared to Space time ninjutsu lmao.

Plus in my previous post, I highlighted evidence why A3 wasn't, not just the absence of evidence that he was faster, but evidence that suggests he wasn't as well.


It's just mind-boggling 

It's the same kind of argument as Hashirama wasn't actually stronger than Madara at VOTE, but worse lol.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 3, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> It's the same kind of argument as Hashirama wasn't actually stronger than Madara at VOTE, but worse lol.



That argument is...garbage lol.


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## Turrin (Nov 3, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Tsunade and Orochimaru together can stall him is the point.
> 
> 
> It's still at least 90 percent of their full speed dude.
> ...


1- How can they stall him, as your claim was they can push him back, but then admitted they can’t when he’s charging. So how do they stall Ei3 charging Jiriaya with Nukite

2- Madara was faster Blind while Living, then as an Edo with Rinnegan/EMS. I doubt they are only 10% slower. Seems to me like they are close to full power as their Chakra and Jutsu are pretty much intact this time, but their bodies physically are still weaker significantly as zombies. And Dodai is knowledgeable dude but he’s still just a Jonin; of course to him it’s going to look like Ei3 still impenetrable Shield is intact after he takes a FRS. It doesn’t mean Ei3 isn’t weaker, it just means he’s still got a strong Shield.

3- So your argument is Ei3 can’t use D-Rank Body Flicker? A skill which is literally just channeling chakra to ones body, which Ei3 clearly can do, as he does so with RCM, even effecting the nature of that chakra to change it to Raiton? Yeah I’m not buying that 

4- He evades multiple attacks from KCM Naruto, how is that not fast? And sure he may not evade every attack, but he clearly tries to evades ones that could be dangerous as he went out of his way to evade FRS, which didn’t even end up scratching him; probably simply because it was a strong Fuuton Jutsu, which he is weak too.

The rest of this is just you arguing a false premise; Ei3 Shield/Spear being what he’s known for doesn’t mean he couldn’t be as fast as Ei4, it just means his Spear / Shield are better then his speed, which makes sense given how powerful they are. Ei4 has confirmed speed on RCM2 level, yet people on the forums still consider him weaker then Ei3 due to Ei3 having his shield and spear regardless of speed. So it shows Spear/Shield are > Ei4 Speed, in many people’s opinions and the same is probably occurring in the Naruto world, which is why he is famous for his Spear/Shield and not as much his speed


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 3, 2020)

Turrin said:


> But your hypothetical is wrong as Hachibi is way stronger then x2 KN4. Again Continous TBB scales over x3 what KN4 showed alone; as each TBB is far stronger then KN4s, and Hachibi fired like three of them on rapid succession and had much more chakra left





Turrin said:


> But your hypothetical is wrong as Hachibi is way stronger then x2 KN4. Again Continous TBB scales over x3 what KN4 showed alone; as each TBB is far stronger then KN4s, and Hachibi fired like three of them on rapid succession and had much more chakra left



3 Tails  could use TBB and Deidara defeated him as well Same with Kakuzu/Hidan and the 2 tails .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Nov 3, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> 3 Tails  could use TBB and Deidara defeated him as well Same with Kakuzu/Hidan and the 2 tails .


Deidara defeated 2-Tails with Obito helping distract 2-Tails and using Kamui to tank its hits.

Kakuzu and Hidan together beat the 2-Tails 2v1.

2/3 Tails can use TBB, but scale much lower still then Hachibi Continous TBB.

So I really don’t understand how this helps your point


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 3, 2020)

Turrin said:


> How can they stall him, as your claim was they can push him back, but then admitted they can’t when he’s charging. So how do they stall Ei3 charging Jiriaya with Nukite


Tsunade and Oro stop his initial charge with their first counter attack, then their next attack can further stall him or push him back.
Durability =/= weight. Orochimaru can push KN4 Naruto many meters away with kusanagi but couldn't pierce it's armor.




Turrin said:


> Madara was faster Blind while Living, then as an Edo with Rinnegan/EMS. I doubt they are only 10% slower. Seems to me like they are close to full power as their Chakra and Jutsu are pretty much intact this time, but their bodies physically are still weaker significantly as zombies. And Dodai is knowledgeable dude but he’s still just a Jonin; of course to him it’s going to look like Ei3 still impenetrable Shield is intact after he takes a FRS. It doesn’t mean Ei3 isn’t weaker, it just means he’s still got a strong Shield.






Turrin said:


> o your argument is Ei3 can’t use D-Rank Body Flicker? A skill which is literally just channeling chakra to ones body, which Ei3 clearly can do, as he does so with RCM, even effecting the nature of that chakra to change it to Raiton? Yeah I’m not buying that





Turrin said:


> The rest of this is just you arguing a false premise; Ei3 Shield/Spear being what he’s known for doesn’t mean he couldn’t be as fast as Ei4, it just means his Spear / Shield are better then his speed, which makes sense given how powerful they are. Ei4 has confirmed speed on RCM2 level, yet people on the forums still consider him weaker then Ei3 due to Ei3 having his shield and spear regardless of speed. So it shows Spear/Shield are > Ei4 Speed, in many people’s opinions and the same is probably occurring in the Naruto world, which is why he is famous for his Spear/Shield and not as much his speed



No proof he has RCM2.

Just because someone can use two separate techniques individually doesn't mean you can combine them into one.

Ei4 had to amp his chakra to bijuu levels just to use Body Flicker and Raiton no Yoroi at the same time, not unlike needing massive chakra to use rasengan and nature transformation at the same time in one jutsu.

There is a difference between casting two different things at the same time and combining them.

for instance, Kakazu can use and maintain fire and wind attack at the same time, does that mean he can combine them into a KKG?

Likewise, Darui can use suiton and lightning at the same time to attack Sasuke, but Laser circus is when he actually combines them simultaneously.

Ei3 has no special speed hype here.

Dodai never notes his speed. Being a jonin isn't irrelevant, he never notes a decline in A3's speed and he was A3's right arm.

Bee and A4 don't give a darn about A3's speed, the only people to ever be faster than A4 during his lifetime where Minato and KCM Naruto period. "only the second person to outdo my fastest punch" "After Minato's death, I am now the fastest shinobi"
A4  17 years later speaks of the dead when ranking his speed and doesn't mention his father at all, meaning his speed was irrelevant. And A3 is literally A4's father who A4 cared about.

A3's strongest shield being so famous only makes sense if he was hit alot in life, and tanked many powerful attacks, which means he wasn't zipping around the battlefield with V2 a4 speeds or he certainly would be worth mentioning as a rival in speed by his own son.




Turrin said:


> - He evades multiple attacks from KCM Naruto, how is that not fast? And sure he may not evade every attack, but he clearly tries to evades ones that could be dangerous as he went out of his way to evade FRS, which didn’t even end up scratching him; probably simply because it was a strong Fuuton Jutsu, which he is weak too.


an immense chakra sphere powered by Kurama's chakra with fuuton blades would be a threat to anyone, especially a raiton based armor. Kakazu knew how powerful a weaker one was just from looking at it.

Not saying he doesn't ever dodge attacks but he isn't as fast nor did he move as fast as he did in life if his only speed hype is V1 ayy speeds and he is known for this highly durable shield. he gets hit  alot dude.

You need to look at his IC personality and tendencies. If he isn't hyped for speed outside of V1 A4 levels ( which is reasonable given his chakra levels and using the same tech as A4, so not saying he isn't fast), but hyped for endurace and durability it means it was in his character to rely on his shield more times than not.




Turrin said:


> Madara was faster Blind while Living, then as an Edo with Rinnegan/EMS. I doubt they are only 10% slower. Seems to me like they are close to full power as their Chakra and Jutsu are pretty much intact this time, but their bodies physically are still weaker significantly as zombies. And Dodai is knowledgeable dude but he’s still just a Jonin; of course to him it’s going to look like Ei3 still impenetrable Shield is intact after he takes a FRS. It doesn’t mean Ei3 isn’t weaker, it just means he’s still got a strong Shield.


*Almost at full power *still means 90 percent dude. Doesn't make sense that they are that far off. Tobirama was now strong enough to muster some resistance to Edo Tensei whereas in P1 he couldn't move against on his own will at all , same for Hashirama before sealing tags were placed in their head. ten percent isn't a small gap. The gap between 90 m/s and 100 m/s isn't small at all, that's the problem with your logic. Moving ten extra meters in that same second is huge. 

But the gap between V1 Ayy and V2 Ayy is larger than that. Ayy goes from being reacted to by Suigetsu  and being manageable to 3 tomoe Sasuke to moving fast enough evade Amaterasu after ignition and Sasuke couldn't keep up physically at all even with MS...

Sasuke is someone who managed to dodge both Base Bee and V1 bee with just his 3 tomoe.

So yeah....


All you have proven is that V2 A4 >>>> living A3>Alive A3

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## Turrin (Nov 3, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Tsunade and Oro stop his initial charge with their first counter attack, then their next attack can further stall him or push him back.
> Durability =/= weight. Orochimaru can push KN4 Naruto many meters away with kusanagi but couldn't pierce it's armor.
> 
> 
> ...


1- You have once again repeated yourself without offering anyway they can stop Ei3 charge; your going into Ad Nauseam fallacy territory again 

2- Ei3 is clearly able to use another even more Advanced Jutsu at the same time as RCM; Nukite. So what your saying is baseless. And claiming he doesn’t have speed hype when KCM Naruto hyped his speed as comparable to RCM1 Ei4, while slower as a weakened Edo, is just fallacious 

3- No close to full power mean whatever the author wants it to mean; and in terms of physical ability we were already clearly show their is a significant difference with Madara example. You can’t just ingore this and supplement your own narrative that they must be at 90% in all regards

4- RCM1 to RCM2 is a big gap, but so is Madara going from faster when Blind then he was as an Edo with EMS/Rinnegan. Also nothing says Ei3 even as an Edo used his max speed 

You also act as if RCM2 Ei4 dodging Amaterasu means he can’t be reacted to; but Sasuke still reacted to him with Flame Control and Gaara did with Gourd Sand.


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## God Of Naruto (Nov 3, 2020)

Tsunade could beat him 1v1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 3, 2020)

Turrin needs to learn to concede when wrong.


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 3, 2020)

Turrin said:


> You have once again repeated yourself without offering anyway they can stop Ei3 charge; your going into Ad Nauseam fallacy territory again


lmao. i already told you how. Tsunade's super strength, Oro's kusanagi working together.  The latter pushed KN4 through a forest many meters, Tsunade's striking strength also scales above KCM Naruto w/o Rasenshuriken, and they both have the regen to tank his attacks.




Turrin said:


> Ei3 is clearly able to use another even more Advanced Jutsu at the same time as RCM; Nukite. So what your saying is baseless. And claiming he doesn’t have speed hype when KCM Naruto hyped his speed as comparable to RCM1 Ei4, while slower as a weakened Edo, is just fallacious


Using another advanced jutsu at the same time =/= combining two different jutsu into one lmao. v2 is called the lightning release body flicker for a reason.

YOU HAVE NO PROOF THAT A3 IS SECRETLY AS FAST OR FASTER THAN V2 A4.
Talk about Ad nauseam fallacy and argument from ignorance... smh

I provided you plenty of evidence that heavily suggests he isn't as fast as son and you just ignored it all.


And now your strawmanning too, I said 90 percent of his speed scales to V1 a4



V2 A4> A3>~ V1 Ay

Anything else is fanfic speculation dude.



That's the best you gonna get it.



Turrin said:


> No close to full power mean whatever the author wants it to mean; and in terms of physical ability we were already clearly show their is a significant difference with Madara example. You can’t just ingore this and supplement your own narrative that they must be at 90% in all regards



Narrative says almost at full power through the creator of the technique, who can guage how much his own Edo tensei has been improved and also knows how much weaker he was in P1.

you are just downplaying the gap between 90 percent and 100 percent.


It honestly depends on how Edo Tensei works.

Does it bring everyone back at a certain percentage? 

Well 90 percent of Madara's max strength is not the same thing as 90 percent of Haku's max strength.

90 percent of 100 is 90, while 90 percent of 1000 is 900

The gap between the former is only ten, while the later is a gap of 1000, so yeah, the gap exists.

But then by that logic, all the stronger Edo Tensei would be much weaker than their living selves, while the weaker ones would be at practically full power.

Which doesn't add up. None of the p2 edos were drastically weaker than their living selves, all were stated to be almost at full power

Madara could use PS ffs.

So each of the bound souls are brought back within a flat number of their original power, no less than 90 percent on each and every case by case basis.

You are simply exaggerating the boost Madara got. Nothing he did as an Edo was out of the world compared to his living self. He was faster and stronger but nothing crazy.



Turrin said:


> othing says Ei3 even as an Edo used his max speed



nothing says he didn't.




Turrin said:


> You also act as if RCM2 Ei4 dodging Amaterasu means he can’t be reacted to; but Sasuke still reacted to him with Flame Control and Gaara did with Gourd Sand.




Karin "nothing can match his teleporation speed.

reacting with jutsu means nothing. Sasuke was keeping up with Bee in movement speed, not relying on thought activated justus which are consistently shown to be faster than movement speed or even weaving signs for the same person, as Danzo and Kakashi showed against Susano'o arrows


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## Turrin (Nov 3, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> lmao. i already told you how. Tsunade's super strength, Oro's kusanagi working together.  The latter pushed KN4 through a forest many meters, Tsunade's striking strength also scales above KCM Naruto w/o Rasenshuriken, and they both have the regen to tank his attacks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1- If a Sage Rasengan your insist is stronger then KCM FRS, couldn’t push back charging Ei3; how are your expecting these weaker attacks to push him back? Or maybe you were wrong about your Rasengan Claim? Let me know and I’ll adjust my argument accordingly 

2-_ Third he literally is creating Nikite from RCM; so yes it’s the same thing as combining two Jutsu. And I have given you the evidence that Ei3 is faster then RCM1 Ei4; as he was compared to RCM1 while slower as an Edo; I said RCM2 is debatable but I gave you the reason why it’s likely Ei3 is faster. You just keep reposting the debunked point that Ei3 can’t combined another Jutsu with the RCM when he clearly did 

3- Again you are making the assumption that an Edo is brought back at an equal percentage in all areas. So their chakra, speed, strength, Etc... are all equal nerfed at 90%, but that doesn’t have to be the case. Madara could be at 98% in Chakra and 80% in Physical Stats; and someone could still say Madara is close to full power, relatively speaking as his 98% Chakra would allow him to use P-Susanoo his strongest Jutsu.

What you refuse to actually address is that we know despite them being “close” to their full power that in terms of physical abilities they were greatly reduced. Madara without Dojutsu was faster alive then Edo Madara with Dojutsu, are you going to actually address this point or just go Ad Nauseam with the Tobirama statement?

4- Okay, and the burden of proof isn’t on me. Your the one suggesting Living Ei3 Max speed is not much different from the speed Edo Ei3 showed against Naruto. It is therefore on you to prove Edo Debuff of physicals was insignificant and Ei3 was using his max speed. Pro-tip nothing so far you have posted proved ether

5- The problem is Flame Control and Gaara Sand are not some Uber speed level shit; plenty of enemies reacted to these attacks. Fuck Joki Boi outsped Gaara’s Sand more then RCM2 Ei4 did. _

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## Eliyua23 (Nov 3, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Deidara defeated 2-Tails with Obito helping distract 2-Tails and using Kamui to tank its hits.
> 
> Kakuzu and Hidan together beat the 2-Tails 2v1.
> 
> ...





Turrin said:


> Deidara defeated 2-Tails with Obito helping distract 2-Tails and using Kamui to tank its hits.
> 
> Kakuzu and Hidan together beat the 2-Tails 2v1.
> 
> ...



Sure Obito sent Kisame to face down Bee despite TBB , Obito sent Sasuke to face down Bee with no Susanoo to face down Bee despite TBB , TBB by Theory should obliterate the immortals and they were still sent after a tailed beast with perfect control of their Jin , they were all caught despite TBB so and most of those Atakuski groups are weaker than Orochimaru ~ Jiriaya at their best let alone all 3 Sannin combined 

Nobody Fears Bee whom is > Hachibi by himself poor performance no fear yet it’s stronger than Jiriaya who looked nothing but stellar on panel with some
Of the best portrayal in the manga ? , it just doesn’t add up .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Nov 3, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Sure Obito sent Kisame to face down Bee despite TBB , Obito sent Sasuke to face down Bee with no Susanoo to face down Bee despite TBB , TBB by Theory should obliterate the immortals and they were still sent after a tailed beast with perfect control of their Jin , they were all caught despite TBB so and most of those Atakuski groups are weaker than Orochimaru ~ Jiriaya at their best let alone all 3 Sannin combined
> 
> Nobody Fears Bee whom is > Hachibi by himself poor performance no fear yet it’s stronger than Jiriaya who looked nothing but stellar on panel with some
> Of the best portrayal in the manga ? , it just doesn’t add up .


1- Obito underestimated B against Sasuke; and he didn’t send Kisame to even necessarily win, just to infiltrate Kumo

2- I disagree that these groups are weaker then Jiriaya and Orochimaru. Obito + Deidara are vastly stronger then the Sannin, due to Obito alone being vastly stronger then them; and if Deidara has C3 Prepped he’d also be stronger then them. Hidan and Kakuzu are a little tougher to scale because Kishi made them weaker after the fact to rush the arc, but I’m sure their original strength was suppose to be > a Sannin.

Also once again 2-Tails doesn’t scale to Hachibi; and 2Tails TBB doesn’t scale to Hachibi Continous TBB; so I don’t see your point.

3- B looked better on panel then Jiriaya; he solo’d V1 Pain Rikudo, which is > Paths Jiriaya faced and lost to. He then goes on to face Juubi and Shit alongside BM Naruto. Way better performance


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 3, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Obito underestimated B against Sasuke; and he didn’t send Kisame to even necessarily win, just to infiltrate Kumo
> 
> 2- I disagree that these groups are weaker then Jiriaya and Orochimaru. Obito + Deidara are vastly stronger then the Sannin, due to Obito alone being vastly stronger then them; and if Deidara has C3 Prepped he’d also be stronger then them. Hidan and Kakuzu are a little tougher to scale because Kishi made them weaker after the fact to rush the arc, but I’m sure their original strength was suppose to be > a Sannin.
> 
> ...



I was talking about the groups in general not just Obito .

He summons and captures tailed beast for a living, has infinite knowledge of the Sharingan and he didn’t take into account Sasuke would have to face down TBB ?

And a clone with Jiriaya’s chakra signature took on Issihiki solo, and Orochimaru summoned 4 guys each stronger than Bee

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Nov 3, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> I was talking about the groups in general not just Obito .
> 
> He summons and captures tailed beast for a living, has infinite knowledge of the Sharingan and he didn’t take into account Sasuke would have to face down TBB ?
> 
> And a clone with Jiriaya’s chakra signature took on Issihiki solo, and Orochimaru summoned 4 guys each stronger than Bee


1- Why do you keep focusing on TBB, I never said that TBB alone scales this high; I said continuous TBB; and Obito kept overestimating Sasuke, he does it again in the Kages Arc too. 

2- You know we’re not talking about those incarnations of the Sannin; let’s not slip into dishonesty here


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 4, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Why do you keep focusing on TBB, I never said that TBB alone scales this high; I said continuous TBB; and Obito kept overestimating Sasuke, he does it again in the Kages Arc too.
> 
> 2- You know we’re not talking about those incarnations of the Sannin; let’s not slip into dishonesty here



You always bring up TBB as the thing the Sannin cannot handle and it’s a main staple into why so many overrate Bee in general so what I’m saying is for the characters in the manga it wasn’t a deal breaker for them to try to capture tailed beast .

That’s apart of portrayal in general is that Jiriaya/Orochimaru fought earlier on in the manga and when they got post WA scaling they were superior to Bee , and also Bee did worst than Jiriaya and Orochimaru in their respective highlight fights considering Orochimaru took down Hiruzen whom at the time in the story was the strongest Kage and Jiriaya faced down the Rinnegan solo and got hype from Nagato where as Bee faced Taka with a Sasike who was injured and couldn’t use MS and the one time he pulled it out Bee retreated and Bee was Defeated by Kisame the same Kisame whom was one shot by Jiriaya in PT 1 , then Itachi shows the ultimate respect for the Sannin name and Jiraiya where as he schools Bee against Nagato .

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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 4, 2020)

@Eliyua23, you're comparing Jinchuriki who couldn't control the power of their Tailed Beasts and had major limitations on their abilities besides that (e.g. P1 Gaara being conveniently on top of Shukaku so someone could simply defeat Shukaku by KOing Gaara and the Tailed Beast himself probably wouldn't want to use the TBB for fear of killing his host and Yugito's Tailed Beast form being so laughably weak even Kakuzu is able to resist his paw strike momentarily). Even then, Kisame aka the Tailed Beast hunter extraordinaire had a difficult time against just Roshi who had an elemental _disadvantage_ and likely couldn't even use Tailed Beast Mode proper lol.

Killer Bee, who is a perfect Jinchuriki, was massively handicapped against Kisame (both in that Bee couldn't go all out for fear of hurting Sabu and Ponta and in that Kisame was a perfect counter to Bee's fighting style while also growing stronger off his chakra) and still would've *won* if not for letting Kisame replenish himself like an idiot. The problem is that we have no proof most of the Jinchuriki Akatsuki captured could even use their Tailed Beast powers well - to say nothing of the TBB which requires a full transformation - and plenty of proof they _sucked_ at doing so. Yet even their top Tailed Beast hunters struggle against truly, fully unleashed Tailed Beasts and *especially *Tailed Beasts that are called Kurama, are in perfect sync with their hosts, or both.


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## Turrin (Nov 4, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> You always bring up TBB as the thing the Sannin cannot handle and it’s a main staple into why so many overrate Bee in general so what I’m saying is for the characters in the manga it wasn’t a deal breaker for them to try to capture tailed beast .
> 
> That’s apart of portrayal in general is that Jiriaya/Orochimaru fought earlier on in the manga and when they got post WA scaling they were superior to Bee , and also Bee did worst than Jiriaya and Orochimaru in their respective highlight fights considering Orochimaru took down Hiruzen whom at the time in the story was the strongest Kage and Jiriaya faced down the Rinnegan solo and got hype from Nagato where as Bee faced Taka with a Sasike who was injured and couldn’t use MS and the one time he pulled it out Bee retreated and Bee was Defeated by Kisame the same Kisame whom was one shot by Jiriaya in PT 1 , then Itachi shows the ultimate respect for the Sannin name and Jiraiya where as he schools Bee against Nagato .


1- Nope straw man, I brought up Continous TBB, not TBB. You know my post history Eliyua and how I have argued regular TBB can be countered by various methods of the Sannin. Literally the rest of your points are irrelevant as they are attacking this same straw man of TBB, not continuous TBB

2- The Sannin got higher scaling by literally gaining new powers and abilities. You can’t just give them those abilities prior to the arc they achieved them. It’s like saying P1 Naruto >  Kakuzu since he gets SM in the PA and higher scaling. That’s nonsensical and I think you know that.


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 4, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Nope straw man, I brought up Continous TBB, not TBB. You know my post history Eliyua and how I have argued regular TBB can be countered by various methods of the Sannin. Literally the rest of your points are irrelevant as they are attacking this same straw man of TBB, not continuous TBB
> 
> 2- The Sannin got higher scaling by literally gaining new powers and abilities. You can’t just give them those abilities prior to the arc they achieved them. It’s like saying P1 Naruto >  Kakuzu since he gets SM in the PA and higher scaling. That’s nonsensical and I think you know that.



My point is he still sent characters that are below to Sannin to face Bee whom has continuous TBB .

I use those examples as correlation of how the characters are viewed and portrayed by the author and that’s a different scenario because Sannin and Bee weren’t introduced at the same time , Sannin got their panel time much earlier then Bee was introduced with the new scaling in the back end of PT 2 , Sannin hype and powerups correlate with their portrayal and that’s they are on Bee’s level of not superior meaning even if you think Ei3 is stronger he sure isn’t stronger than all 3 if not 2 combined .


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## Turrin (Nov 4, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> My point is he still sent characters that are below to Sannin to face Bee whom has continuous TBB .
> 
> I use those examples as correlation of how the characters are viewed and portrayed by the author and that’s a different scenario because Sannin and Bee weren’t introduced at the same time , Sannin got their panel time much earlier then Bee was introduced with the new scaling in the back end of PT 2 , Sannin hype and powerups correlate with their portrayal and that’s they are on Bee’s level of not superior meaning even if you think Ei3 is stronger he sure isn’t stronger than all 3 if not 2 combined .


Yeah and your point continues to be irrelevant to my point, becuase im not talking about TBB. Not sure where the disconnect is here.
—-
Once again it’s not that the Sannin were just stronger with later scaling they literally got new powers, so this is irrelevant to Sannin prior to End of WA / Boruto


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## blk (Nov 4, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> And I'm saying the two scenes aren't comparable. A3 was charging straight ahead at Naruto, and the arm was curled into Ei3's chest, stopping his momentum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- A4 V1 levels of speed are already enough to outspeed them significantly and dodge most of everything they can throw at him;

- BFR is massively OOC tho. The only thing i can think of that Tsunade can amp enough to do damage is COR, which not only Jman can't use w/out tons of prep for SM, but it's not exactly practical to amp (how can Tsunade amp him while he jumps towards A3? Assuming COR even hits ofc);

- i didn't say they can't react tho, i said they can't dodge. Which is true, they might react and put up a guard but they can't really escape from him... and since any Nukite hit would pretty much destroy their body.. at best only Oro can survive for more than a minute;



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Who's that supposed to be? It sure ain't Ay3, that I can tell you.
> 
> Ay3 _can_ be hit (_and dodged_). We saw KCM Naruto's clone hit him and we saw SM Naruto's clone dodge him. As high level those clones are in battle, the Legendary Sannin are three High Kage level opponents with above-average to high levels of speed themselves as well as synergy. Orochimaru dodged KN3 and, to an extent, KN4. Dude can also literally restrain Ay3 with KN4-binding snakes if the dude gets too close, no dodging required. Tsunade with her ability to read attack patterns and equal or slightly superior performance to Ay3's son against Madara's Susano'o clones shows that she can keep up with that level of speed if not match it. Jiraiya can use Toad Oil Bombs - without handseals! - to slow Ay3 down and then dodge him or use Wild Lion's Mane to do it instead - in base.
> 
> ...



No, they can't dodge him for any appreciable amount of time. He is significantly faster than them and they are nowhere close Naruto's reflexes or speed.
At best one or two hits, but that's it.

Since when do the Susanoo clones move at V1 speeds?

A3 will keep RnY on in this battle obviously, so they have to get through it first.

Nope they can't tank it.
At best Oro and Tsunade can regen, but after he sees it he will surely aim for the head. And while Oro might regen from getting his head completely destroyed, Tsunade ain't.
A huge arm getting through her brain and completely destroying it = instant death. Byakugo doesn't bring back from death.

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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 4, 2020)

Turrin said:


> If a Sage Rasengan your insist is stronger then KCM FRS, couldn’t push back charging Ei3; how are your expecting these weaker attacks to push him back? Or maybe you were wrong about your Rasengan Claim? Let me know and I’ll adjust my argument accordingly



FRS explosion =/= FRS projectile before explosion
Rasenshuriken explosion traps the target in its epicenter and cuts them from all sides
does this mean FRS explosion is weaker than the projectile throw lol?
A3 was standing still when hit by FRS, while A3 was moving when hit by rasengan
lastly, being able to push a character back does not translate to being able to hurt them or vice versa.
does stabbing someone with a sword necessarily push them back? no
but a kick that pushes them a meter away probably won't pierce them.




Turrin said:


> hird he literally is creating Nikite from RCM; so yes it’s the same thing as combining two Jutsu. And I have given you the evidence that Ei3 is faster then RCM1 Ei4; as he was compared to RCM1 while slower as an Edo; I said RCM2 is debatable but I gave you the reason why it’s likely Ei3 is faster. You just keep reposting the debunked point that Ei3 can’t combined another Jutsu with the RCM when he clearly di


Haku can combine water with wind, does that mean he can combine earth with water?
Darui can combine lightning with water for laser circus, and can combine a lightning and water jutsu like he did against 3 tomoe taka sasuke, does that mean sasuke could combine rinnegan power with another tech at the same time at VOTE2?

no he was not skilled enough to do so.

A3 is not proven to be able to use raiton no yoroi and body flicker at the same time.


A3 is not faster and i proved it and you REFUSE to address it.

And even if he WAS secretly faster than A4 he did not rely on this speed in battle as I already stated lmao.




Turrin said:


> Again you are making the assumption that an Edo is brought back at an equal percentage in all areas. So their chakra, speed, strength, Etc... are all equal nerfed at 90%, but that doesn’t have to be the case. Madara could be at 98% in Chakra and 80% in Physical Stats; and someone could still say Madara is close to full power, relatively speaking as his 98% Chakra would allow him to use P-Susanoo his strongest Jutsu.
> 
> What you refuse to actually address is that we know despite them being “close” to their full power that in terms of physical abilities they were greatly reduced. Madara without Dojutsu was faster alive then Edo Madara with Dojutsu, are you going to actually address this point or just go Ad Nauseam with the Tobirama statement?


doujutsu boosts his reflexes not speed.
Edo tensei  nerfs both reflexes and speed, so when revived both would have increased.

but what's important is that the increase isn't stated to be massive like you are saying. Reactions have nothing to do with movement speed if we just talking 100 meter dash.

Rock lee and sasuke had the same speed but sasuke greater reflexes due to doujutsu

Hiruzen literally stated Base Minato was as fast as ever 


Turrin said:


> kay, and the burden of proof isn’t on me. Your the one suggesting Living Ei3 Max speed is not much different from the speed Edo Ei3 showed against Naruto. It is therefore on you to prove Edo Debuff of physicals was insignificant and Ei3 was using his max speed. Pro-tip nothing so far you have posted proved ether


V2 A4> Living A3>~v1A4 as per canon.



Turrin said:


> The problem is Flame Control and Gaara Sand are not some Uber speed level shit; plenty of enemies reacted to these attacks. Fuck Joki Boi outsped Gaara’s Sand more then RCM2 Ei4 did.


Gaara's sand never outsped max speed V2 Ei lmao.
Flame control  activation on susano'o shield is faster than FKS Sasuke's movement speed, and by a lot considering he needed it to keep with A4's movement speed, which surpassed V1 Bee and FKS Sasuke by a lot.
that's not the same thing as the flame control projectiles like the arrows he used lmao.



blk said:


> A4 V1 levels of speed are already enough to outspeed them significantly and dodge most of everything they can throw at him;


he stood there and tanked Temari's Fuuton despite automatic Edo defense. it's IC for him to rely on his shield alot.


blk said:


> BFR is massively OOC tho. The only thing i can think of that Tsunade can amp enough to do damage is COR, which not only Jman can't use w/out tons of prep for SM, but it's not exactly practical to amp (how can Tsunade amp him while he jumps towards A3? Assuming COR even hits ofc);


she can just transfer a massive amount of chakra to him in general, like how she refreshed ohnoki and gaara, she doesn't need to massively and continously pump him like she did to ohnoki.
chakra is always moulded first, before it's manipulated into a jutsu.




blk said:


> i didn't say they can't react tho, i said they can't dodge. Which is true, they might react and put up a guard but they can't really escape from him... and since any Nukite hit would pretty much destroy their body.. at best only Oro can survive for more than a minute;


nukite is mostly localized damage and the two healers can tank it. 1v1 you have a good case, but 3 v1 lol? and while his attack is stuck in their body they can counter attack him.

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## Eliyua23 (Nov 4, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yeah and your point continues to be irrelevant to my point, becuase im not talking about TBB. Not sure where the disconnect is here.
> —-
> Once again it’s not that the Sannin were just stronger with later scaling they literally got new powers, so this is irrelevant to Sannin prior to End of WA / Boruto



how is it not relevant you’re arguing that Ei3 is above all 3 Sannin because he drawer with Hachibi and I’m pointing out Obito sent characters weaker than each of them to face him and one of the guys he sent actually won .

Their on panel portrayal based upon narrative was more impressive Orochimaru beat a guy that was supposed to be the strongest Hokage at the time and Jiriaya faced Nagato with no knowledge and came out looking strong , Bee lost to Nagato with backup , lost to Kisame and only beat Sasuke because he couldn’t use SNAKE powers and MS and overtime Bee got stronger so it’s not fair for Bee to get like all this panel time yet improve and get better showings yet the Sannin are only capped at their earilier performance in which narrative wise they were better anyways 

Ei 3 and Bee are the head cannon masters of the forum much better in hypotheticals than they were actually displayed on panel .


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## Hajicafe (Nov 5, 2020)

A3 is slower than A4. Also naruto reacted to him in SM. Jiraiya definitely can.  

Method 1:
Tsunade can tank him if she can tank sussano. Also, I really doubt it would be harder to protect herself from someone slower than Ay4 than fighting against 5 sussano. Even if the sussano are slower 5 of them attacking together is logically harder to defend against.

Jiraiya gets into SM and uses genjutsu. 

Method 2:

Tsunade summons katsuyu. Ay3 can wreck havoc all day. He aint getting past katsuyu before jiraiya goes SM. Also even if he could reach the by jumping, that movement will be linear. They should be able to defend themselves. 

Orochimaru chills in the background waiting for his turn to collect Ay3's cells.


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## Turrin (Nov 5, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> how is it not relevant you’re arguing that Ei3 is above all 3 Sannin because he drawer with Hachibi and I’m pointing out Obito sent characters weaker than each of them to face him and one of the guys he sent actually won .
> 
> Their on panel portrayal based upon narrative was more impressive Orochimaru beat a guy that was supposed to be the strongest Hokage at the time and Jiriaya faced Nagato with no knowledge and came out looking strong , Bee lost to Nagato with backup , lost to Kisame and only beat Sasuke because he couldn’t use SNAKE powers and MS and overtime Bee got stronger so it’s not fair for Bee to get like all this panel time yet improve and get better showings yet the Sannin are only capped at their earilier performance in which narrative wise they were better anyways
> 
> Ei 3 and Bee are the head cannon masters of the forum much better in hypotheticals than they were actually displayed on panel .


Because Obito was wrong. He sent Taka, and they got trolled. He sent Kisame who he didn’t even think would win, but just wanted him to infiltrate; the author also made a point of restricting Full Hachibi form in that fight, heavily implying Full Hachibi > Kisame. Also the time B was struggling with Nagato, he also wasn’t in Hachibi form
—-
“Suppose to be”, turns out he wasn’t tho.  Jiriaya faced Pain, and lost. B faced Edo Jin V1 which are > Pain and won. In-fact as I said no Sannin has a feat matching that until they get further power ups in the WA/Boruto.
—-
I fail to see what’s head-canon about B beating Edo Jin V1; or his clash against the Juubi. Every time B was in Full Hachibi he was more impressive then the Sannin.


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## Turrin (Nov 5, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> FRS explosion =/= FRS projectile before explosion
> Rasenshuriken explosion traps the target in its epicenter and cuts them from all sides
> does this mean FRS explosion is weaker than the projectile throw lol?
> A3 was standing still when hit by FRS, while A3 was moving when hit by rasengan
> ...


1- That’s didn’t answer my question. You are just comparing the circumstance of how  Rasenshuriken hit to SM Rasengan. I don’t care about the validity of your claim that SM Rasengan =~ Rasenshuriken anymore (I’ve already debunked that, I’m just playing along); so I’ll ask again if SM Rasengan which is so powerful according to you could not stop Ei3 charge, what move of the Sannin is going to. I’ll wait... 

2- False equivalence, your talking about combining affinities which require Bloodljnd limits. You do not need a bloodline limit to use Shunshin at the same time as RCM (and funny enough even if you did Ei3 is literally Raikage’s father lol). Ei3 already combines a massive more advanced Jutsu then Shunshin with RCM. I’ve also explained to you Shunshin is just vitalizing the body with chakra; Ei3 & Ei4 are already doing that with Raiton Chakra; that’s what RCM is. So literally all Ei3 has to do is amp more chakra into the shroud, it’s not even two different applications of Chakra at the same time.

So basically your argument is just going to come down to this, we didn’t see, so we can’t know 100%, and my counter to that is simply going to be that we don’t see many things we discuss in the NBD, the burden of proof is never 100% here it’s what is most likely. And the preponderance of evidence makes it extremely likely Ei3 can amp his shroud more.

3-  Dojutsu boosting reactions has always allowed someone to move faster. This is clearly explained when Kakashi learns Raikiri; and needs Sharingan to be able to use it, as otherwise he would be left exposed. There is also the fact that Characters gain chakra amps when they unlock Dojutsu which they can then use to vitalize their bodies with. Such as Sasuke body becoming stronger as he progresses in mastery of Mangekyo and unlocks more of his special Uchiha Chakra. So no this is wrong, Madara definitely can not use his Top Speed when Blind the way he can with Dojutsu

4- What you just outlined isn’t proof, it’s your opinion. And it’s just wrong. At a minimum we know it’s RCM2 Ei4 >= Living Ei3 > Edo Ei3 =~ RCM1 Ei4. Bare minimum due to Edo Debuffs, 

5- I didn’t say absolute max speed Ei4, I said it kept up with Flame Control and RCM2 Ei4; this is seen when it blocks Kagatsuchi and Leg Drop

6- Him standing there and tanking Temari Fuuton doesn’t mean he wouldn’t evade if the threat was bigger; as we clearly saw that with Naruto, which he you keep ignoring.

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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 5, 2020)

Turrin said:


> That’s didn’t answer my question. You are just comparing the circumstance of how Rasenshuriken hit to SM Rasengan. I don’t care about the validity of your claim that SM Rasengan =~ Rasenshuriken anymore (I’ve already debunked that, I’m just playing along); so I’ll ask again if SM Rasengan which is so powerful according to you could not stop Ei3 charge, what move of the Sannin is going to. I’ll wait...


SM rasengan stopped his charge by redirecting his arm into his chest. I never said Senpou Rasengan striking force > then unexploded Rasenshuriken striking force in terms of who pushes the target back further, just pointing out the false equivalencies. A3 was moving toward him at high speed and was brought to zero velocity by SM rasengan striking force. Vs A3 was standing still when he got hit by unexpoded FRS in striking force, then increased to a certain velocity in the other direction.

This is basic physics. If something is moving at 50 mph toward you and you decelerate it in an instant it means you added  -50 mph to it's motion, and 50-50 = 0 which making it stop.

If something wasn't moving but you hit it hit it and make it go 50 mph in the other direction, then 0-50 = -50 mph in the other direction.
It's not that difficult.



Turrin said:


> alse equivalence, your talking about combining affinities which require Bloodljnd limits. You do not need a bloodline limit to use Shunshin at the same time as RCM (and funny enough even if you did Ei3 is literally Raikage’s father lol). Ei3 already combines a massive more advanced Jutsu then Shunshin with RCM. I’ve also explained to you Shunshin is just vitalizing the body with chakra; Ei3 & Ei4 are already doing that with Raiton Chakra; that’s what RCM is. So literally all Ei3 has to do is amp more chakra into the shroud, it’s not even two different applications of Chakra at the same time.


Lol, does rasengan need a bloodline limit to be combined with a nature? Can everyone combine a nature with rasengan? If not, concession accepted.

Can Sasuke combine Kagutsuchi chidori with Preta path at the same time?
No because he doesn't have the mastery that allows the attention span to do these two complex jutsu at the same time.

Rock lee can use the Gates better than Kakashi, but Kakashi can use any other ninjutsu better than Lee.

There is difference between using two different jutsu at the same time (Like Sasuke/Madara using Grandfireball Katon and Susano'o at the same time) and COMBINING two different jutsu into one new jutsu which requires more skill.

Lightning Release body Flicker is a combination of the B rank skill of shaping and converting a large amount of chakra into raiton armor and using the Body Flicker Technique ( D rank skill chakra manipulation) at the same time into a new jutsu.
So no it's two different jutsu that A3 hasn't shown the skill to use at the same time and combine like his son.



You refused to address the evidence that suggests A4 is faster than A3 in my earlier posts so I'll just keep waiting until you address it, or just accept your concession, since your refusal to address the
evidence means you can't debunk it lmao.




Turrin said:


> So basically your argument is just going to come down to this, we didn’t see, so we can’t know 100%, and my counter to that is simply going to be that we don’t see many things we discuss in the NBD, the burden of proof is never 100% here it’s what is most likely. And the preponderance of evidence makes it extremely likely Ei3 can amp his shroud more.


Headcanon isn't evidence. Ignoring A4's and Bee's manga statements (initimate knowledge on A3) isn't evidence. Ignoring Gyuki's and Dodai's lack of emphasis on A3's speed isn't evidence. Dodai says A3 was fast, sure, but we see that speed get compared to V1 Ayy and Dodai never noted some massive gap in speed between Edo and Living a3, and even emphaszied that MORE SO than his speed, what made him stand out was his durable body, which means he tanked attacks alot in life and never relied on the fanfic speed you keep giving him, meaning it's irrelevant in the first place.
Minato/KCM Naruto  > A4 > A3  & everyone else as per canon.
No one gives a fuck about A3's speed in the manga, only you do, if it was so fast than everyone would have considered him the fastest shinobi.
making up jutsu and skills for A3 that hasn't been shown or stated in favour of the preponderance of in-canon evidence that he cannot use them is headcanon. Your argument isn't likely to be true at all, that's the issue.




Turrin said:


> RCM2 Ei4 >Living Ei3 >~ Edo Ei3 =~ RCM1 Ei4.


Fixed.




Turrin said:


> ojutsu boosting reactions has always allowed someone to move faster. This is clearly explained when Kakashi learns Raikiri; and needs Sharingan to be able to use it, as otherwise he would be left exposed. There is also the fact that Characters gain chakra amps when they unlock Dojutsu which they can then use to vitalize their bodies with. Such as Sasuke body becoming stronger as he progresses in mastery of Mangekyo and unlocks more of his special Uchiha Chakra. So no this is wrong, Madara definitely can not use his Top Speed when Blind the way he can with Dojutsu


Perception & Reflexes =/= speed. Lee and Sasuke proved this wrong period.
Stop conflating the two.
Reflexes means you can begin responding to a stimulus sooner, it doesn't make you move faster. it means you utilize your movement speed quicker.
Rock Lee was just as fast as Sasuke with or without sharingan, but Sasuke's sharingan allows him to use his top speed without risk.
Anything else is headcanon dude.
You literally contradicted yourself. Kakashi CAN use his top speed without sharingan, just not without risk to himself if his opponent's reaction time is quicker than his own, given all they have to do is swing a sword at him, and don't need to cross the same distance as him to counter attack him.
Sasuke's body was never stated to become faster from sharingan, you made that up.

doujutsu doesn't mean anything in a 100 meter dash where there is no one to counter attack you, *and you never provided evidence that Madara needed doujutsu to comfortably react to his own top speed to begin with. *

You just made assumptions.



Turrin said:


> I didn’t say absolute max speed Ei4, I said it kept up with Flame Control and RCM2 Ei4; this is seen when it blocks Kagatsuchi and Leg Drop


that's irrelevant, A4 's running speed  with RCM and Body flicker is unmatched as per Karin's statement. Sasuke matched it with thought activated jutsu. and Gaara sand intercepted A4's free fall speed + kick, which isn't anywhere near as fast A4's ground movement. A4's ground movement speed }+RCM2 kick >>>>>>>>> free fall speed + RCM2 kick




Turrin said:


> Him standing there and tanking Temari Fuuton doesn’t mean he wouldn’t evade if the threat was bigger; as we clearly saw that with Naruto, which he you keep ignoring




no, don't dodge the point. He is known for strongest shield because he likes to tank attacks alot. never said he doesn't dodge attacks *at all.*

He is fast because he possesses V1 speeds, but that isn't enough to be some unstoppable speedster. His son and Minato surpassed him which is why they are considered the fastest shinobi, while A3 is just considered fast but with the strongest shield and strongest spear and bijuu like endurance.


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 5, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @Eliyua23, you're comparing Jinchuriki who couldn't control the power of their Tailed Beasts and had major limitations on their abilities besides that (e.g. P1 Gaara being conveniently on top of Shukaku so someone could simply defeat Shukaku by KOing Gaara and the Tailed Beast himself probably wouldn't want to use the TBB for fear of killing his host and Yugito's Tailed Beast form being so laughably weak even Kakuzu is able to resist his paw strike momentarily). Even then, Kisame aka the Tailed Beast hunter extraordinaire had a difficult time against just Roshi who had an elemental _disadvantage_ and likely couldn't even use Tailed Beast Mode proper lol.
> 
> Killer Bee, who is a perfect Jinchuriki, was massively handicapped against Kisame (both in that Bee couldn't go all out for fear of hurting Sabu and Ponta and in that Kisame was a perfect counter to Bee's fighting style while also growing stronger off his chakra) and still would've *won* if not for letting Kisame replenish himself like an idiot. The problem is that we have no proof most of the Jinchuriki Akatsuki captured could even use their Tailed Beast powers well - to say nothing of the TBB which requires a full transformation - and plenty of proof they _sucked_ at doing so. Yet even their top Tailed Beast hunters struggle against truly, fully unleashed Tailed Beasts and *especially *Tailed Beasts that are called Kurama, are in perfect sync with their hosts, or both.



Yeah they are jinchuriki but I bet they would’ve let their tailed beast take over instead of being captured just like Naruto did against Pain .

Yeah Kisame beat Roshi had no issues hunting tailed beast but


Turrin said:


> Because Obito was wrong. He sent Taka, and they got trolled. He sent Kisame who he didn’t even think would win, but just wanted him to infiltrate; the author also made a point of restricting Full Hachibi form in that fight, heavily implying Full Hachibi > Kisame. Also the time B was struggling with Nagato, he also wasn’t in Hachibi form
> —-
> “Suppose to be”, turns out he wasn’t tho.  Jiriaya faced Pain, and lost. B faced Edo Jin V1 which are > Pain and won. In-fact as I said no Sannin has a feat matching that until they get further power ups in the WA/Boruto.
> —-
> I fail to see what’s head-canon about B beating Edo Jin V1; or his clash against the Juubi. Every time B was in Full Hachibi he was more impressive then the Sannin.



The point is TBB is >>> all 3 Sannin meaning mission is futile sending those caliber of Shinobi , Obito didn’t know Bee wouldn’t have been able to go Full Hachibi before sending him there , now I do agree Hachibi > Kisame but if the disparity is supposed to be so great you just don’t send him there period .

How are the Edo Jins > Pain they couldn’t use any of Pain’s ability outside of shared vision they only were a threat when they went full Hachibi 

Clash with the Juubi he was in a support role a role SM Jiriaya would do well considering Juubito had a major weakness in dealing with SM , and also Orochimaru actually uses Edo Tensei in the war so  Actually showed his effectiveness .

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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 5, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Yeah they are jinchuriki but I bet they would’ve let their tailed beast take over instead of being captured just like Naruto did against Pain


Lol wut? Why would they do that? If they fully transform, they might end up destroying the surroundings and the people in them. Naruto didn't transform to resist capture, he transformed because he wanted to murder Pain outright for killing Hinata.


Eliyua23 said:


> Yeah Kisame beat Roshi had no issues hunting tailed beast


Kisame actually said Roshi gave him a tough fight, so ''no issues'' is incorrect.

And Roshi arguably had an elemental disadvantage against him (water cools magma).


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## Turrin (Nov 5, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> SM rasengan stopped his charge by redirecting his arm into his chest. I never said Senpou Rasengan striking force > then unexploded Rasenshuriken striking force in terms of who pushes the target back further, just pointing out the false equivalencies. A3 was moving toward him at high speed and was brought to zero velocity by SM rasengan striking force. Vs A3 was standing still when he got hit by unexpoded FRS in striking force, then increased to a certain velocity in the other direction.
> 
> This is basic physics. If something is moving at 50 mph toward you and you decelerate it in an instant it means you added  -50 mph to it's motion, and 50-50 = 0 which making it stop.
> 
> ...


1- You are still avoiding the question, so I’ll ask one more time,  if SM Rasengan which is so powerful according to you could not stop Ei3 charge, what move of the Sannin is going to. I’ll wait...

2- Lol that was your own example, with the Bloodline limits. So yeah I will take you shifting the goal post as a concession on your part, that your own example was BS. As far as the Rasenshuriken example that’s another false equivalence, that was so difficult to do because it combined the pinnacle of Shape and Nature alteration, not just that it required two things at once; it was the level of those two things. Many Jutsu require nature and shape alteration  the same time. For example Kakashi’s Raikiiri; or idk Ei3 Nukite.

The rest I’ve already address; there is no such thing as Lightening Release Body Flicker (that’s a technique you made up); and Ei3 has shown the ability to use a more advanced Technique at the same time as RCM anyway; Nukite. 

4-  Okay so now your just repeating stuff I’ve already debunked in previous posts; if your not going to actually address the arguments I’ve put forth, I’ll take the W based on Ad Nauseam

5- Look even if you want it debate how fast living Ei3 is in comparison to Edo Ei3, we know living is faster, so there is no basis for you to claim Living Ei3 could be = to Edo; you just making an objectively false claim.

6- Madara was fighting opponents, so without his Dojutsu he couldn’t use his Top Speed while engaging those opponents; So everything you said is irrelevant here 

7- Sasuke’s body responds to his Mangekyo ability increasing that’s how he breaks Danzo’s seal; Karin also talks about his chakra changing in that arc in response to his emotions. We are literally told by Tobirama too that Uchiha gain chakra as their emotions increase and they master their Dojutsu more. None of this is made up.

8- Ei4 kick wasn’t just free fall, he also did an axe kick at the same time, so it was the speed of RCM2 Ei4 kicks + gravity. Also Gaara’s Sand literally matched Flame Control’s speed intercepting it in that same scene, which you ignored... 

9- Yeah I’m going to need a scan that indicated he likes to tank attacks a-lot. Just because he took an attack from Temari is not grounds to claim he likes to Tank attacks; when he avoided Rasenshuriken.

You also seem to be under this false impression that he wasn’t a speedster, but just being > RCM1 Ei4 would make him a speedster. So your point is nonsensical. He is known for his shield/spear because those are > his speed, doesn’t mean he isn’t a speedster tho


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## Turrin (Nov 5, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Yeah they are jinchuriki but I bet they would’ve let their tailed beast take over instead of being captured just like Naruto did against Pain .
> 
> Yeah Kisame beat Roshi had no issues hunting tailed beast but
> 
> ...


Once again your point is irrelevant as I’m not talking about TBB, I’m talking about Continous TBB. We can continue this when you stop evoking a straw man. Let me know when we can have a real conversation Eliyua

Reactions: Funny 1


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## sabre320 (Nov 5, 2020)

Oro and tsunade hold hold off raikage, raikage will legit take a hell of a time putting oro down who laughts off being ripped in two. WIth Oros support and poison  which should slow the third down tsunade will also not be cutdown while jirayia summons ma and pa. Jirayia in sm uses frog call to debilitate ei leaving sandaime open to oros poison or they finish it with frogsong.

As much of a powerhouse the sandaime is he isnt beating the sannin solo jirayia starting in sm alone solos with frogsong.


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## sabre320 (Nov 5, 2020)

People are seriously overrating v1 levels of speed , it is fast enough to pressure high level ninjas but it is never blitzing most mid kages let alone sm users .With two mid kages as support the argument that jirayia gets cut down is down right hilarious.

We saw v1 getting intercepted by base juugo, we later saw dodai reacting to a v1 blitz and was even able to cast a handseal defensive jutsu in time......just for comparisons sake v1 bee who is able to replicate v1 eis speed was comfortabely matched by kisames cqc speed, same kisames swing was easily intercepted by jirayia with a summoning[relatively time consuming jutsu].

With three ninjas here who can support each other along with various options such as smoke screens jirayias guerilla tactics such as using the frog dimension, motion barrier  and shadowclones blitzes can easily be countered. Hell the third will literally have a hell of a time putting Oro down and runs the risk of getting poisoned without knowledge by Oros blood upon cutting him down multiple times.

Once again this is a team of three midkages who have immense experience coordinating as a team, and jirayia in sm is on the same tier as the sandaime. The only time teams of kage levels lose agaisnt sandaime is when they cannot bypass his durability but this team has sound attacks in frogcall/frogsong that completely bypass his defense and end it aswell as Oros neurotoxin which is potent enough to paralyze sasuke who had been experimented on to be immune to poison when Sandaime go,s rip and tear on Oro dozens of times just to bypass his regen it is a nigh cerntainty he gets poisoned.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 5, 2020)

sabre320 said:


> With three ninjas here who can support each other along with various options such as smoke screens jirayias gorrila tactics

Reactions: Funny 2


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## sabre320 (Nov 5, 2020)

Lol I am stealing that picture trolliest ape ive ever seen.


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## Grinningfox (Nov 5, 2020)

I can’t tell you how nice it is to not debate sannin matchups  anymore 

like I actually enjoy my time here now

10/10 would recommend

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 6, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Once again your point is irrelevant as I’m not talking about TBB, I’m talking about Continous TBB. We can continue this when you stop evoking a straw man. Let me know when we can have a real conversation Eliyua


I’m talking about continuous TBB .


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## Turrin (Nov 6, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> I’m talking about continuous TBB .


But your not, your talking about TBB. Otherwise show me what Akatsuki faced TBB; or what other Bijuu besides Hachibi/Kurama could use Continous TBB.


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 6, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Madara was fighting opponents, so without his Dojutsu he couldn’t use his Top Speed while engaging those opponents; So everything you said is irrelevant here


Fanfiction. Kakashi and Lee not having the reflexes to use their top speed safely does not mean *MADARA* , a completely different character with unknown base reflexes ( which could very well be tiers higher than Sharinganless Kakashi and P1 Rock lee) needs his doujutsu to use it. Stop making shit up without evidence.

Madara's top speed is different than theirs, and so are his base reflexes. Prove that Madara needs sharingan to react to his own top speed.



Turrin said:


> ou are still avoiding the question, so I’ll ask one more time, if SM Rasengan which is so powerful according to you could not stop Ei3 charge, what move of the Sannin is going to.



It stopped Ei3's charge, don't know what you are on about.




Turrin said:


> ol that was your own example, with the Bloodline limits. So yeah I will take you shifting the goal post as a concession on your part, that your own example was BS. As far as the Rasenshuriken example that’s another false equivalence, that was so difficult to do because it combined the pinnacle of Shape and Nature alteration, not just that it required two things at once; it was the level of those two things. Many Jutsu require nature and shape alteration the same time. For example Kakashi’s Raikiiri; or idk Ei3 Nukite.
> 
> The rest I’ve already address; there is no such thing as Lightening Release Body Flicker (that’s a technique you made up); and Ei3 has shown the ability to use a more advanced Technique at the same time as RCM anyway; Nukite.


My example didn't just include bloodline limits at all.
And what was that you said about there being no such thing as Lightning release body flicker:


I accept your concession since you failed to address the example of Lee and the Gates, which is more advanced than  any E rank ninjutsu, yet he can use the upper Gates which even a genius with the sharingan like kakashi couldn't do.

so no, it has nothing to do with just the difficulty if you lack the pre-requisites to perform it. Different skills are different.




Turrin said:


> Sasuke’s body responds to his Mangekyo ability increasing that’s how he breaks Danzo’s seal; Karin also talks about his chakra changing in that arc in response to his emotions. We are literally told by Tobirama too that Uchiha gain chakra as their emotions increase and they master their Dojutsu more. None of this is made up.


nowhere is that stated to provide a speed boost. Rock lee and sasuke had the same speed sharingan or not, just different reflexes.



Turrin said:


> - Ei4 kick wasn’t just free fall, he also did an axe kick at the same time, so it was the speed of RCM2 Ei4 kicks + gravity.


already said that




Turrin said:


> Also Gaara’s Sand literally matched Flame Control’s speed intercepting it in that same scene, which you ignored...


which A4 already casually dodged.

ignoring the fact that A4 had to run in a circle around Sasuke which is a longer path than a straight line.



Turrin said:


> Yeah I’m going to need a scan that indicated he likes to tank attacks a-lot. Just because he took an attack from Temari is not grounds to claim he likes to Tank attacks; when he avoided Rasenshuriken.


Being known for his strongest shield means he was hit alot. and we see him standing and tanking an attack he had no prior knowledge of just for the lulz.


V2 A4>Living A3 >~ Edo A3=~ V1 A4 as per canon.

Hiruzen said Minato was as fast as ever, meaning the speed gap is no more than ten percent smaller.

Never said A3 wasn't a speedster, V1 speeds is enough for Tsunade to call A4 and KCM Naruto to possess impressive speeds.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 6, 2020)

Hiruzen: Minato is as fast as ever!

Onoki: Muu-sama is as strong as he was in the past with Particle Style...

Turrin: They're much weaker.


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## Turrin (Nov 6, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Fanfiction. Kakashi and Lee not having the reflexes to use their top speed safely does not mean *MADARA* , a completely different character with unknown base reflexes ( which could very well be tiers higher than Sharinganless Kakashi and P1 Rock lee) needs his doujutsu to use it. Stop making shit up without evidence.
> 
> Madara's top speed is different than theirs, and so are his base reflexes. Prove that Madara needs sharingan to react to his own top speed.
> 
> ...


I’m not going to take this forward when half your points are AD Nauseam repeats. You won’t even concede the point on Living Ei3 = Edo Ei3, which I outright proved was false. Your just being dishonest now to avoid a concession.


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 6, 2020)

Turrin said:


> But your not, your talking about TBB. Otherwise show me what Akatsuki faced TBB; or what other Bijuu besides Hachibi/Kurama could use Continous TBB.



That was another topic , the topic I’m on is that despite knowing about CTBB Obito still sent ninjas far weaker to face down Bee whom is a perfect Jin and should be > Hachibi solo , now if you want to say Ei can beat each Sannin one on one I’m fine with that but all 3 that notion just doesn’t addd yo Bee nor Ei 3 just don’t have that sort of portrayal .

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (Nov 7, 2020)

Grinningfox said:


> I can’t tell you how nice it is to not debate sannin matchups  anymore
> 
> like I actually enjoy my time here now
> 
> 10/10 would recommend


I can see that, I will try it out

I found out for myself that the most pleasant threads are usually between characters that nobody really cares for (think Tenten vs Temari for an example), you barely see people making dumb or illogical arguments since there's no bias present


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## Grinningfox (Nov 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> I can see that, I will try it out
> 
> I found out for myself that the most pleasant threads are usually between characters that nobody really cares for (think Tenten vs Temari for an example), you barely see people making dumb or illogical arguments since there's no bias present


It’s bliss


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## Turrin (Nov 7, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> That was another topic , the topic I’m on is that despite knowing about CTBB Obito still sent ninjas far weaker to face down Bee whom is a perfect Jin and should be > Hachibi solo , now if you want to say Ei can beat each Sannin one on one I’m fine with that but all 3 that notion just doesn’t addd yo Bee nor Ei 3 just don’t have that sort of portrayal .


Can I have proof Obito knew  about Hachibi being able to use  CTBB. Because it seems like your entire argument rests on this, but you have no evidence to support it; and we know Obito underestimated Hachibi when he sent Taka to capture him


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Can I have proof Obito knew  about Hachibi being able to use  CTBB. Because it seems like your entire argument rests on this, but you have no evidence to support it; and we know Obito underestimated Hachibi when he sent Taka to capture him



He knew Bee was in full control of the 8 tails and Bee + Hachibi > Hachibi , he controlled 9 tails and knew everything about Bijuu so of course

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Nov 7, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> He knew Bee was in full control of the 8 tails and Bee + Hachibi > Hachibi , he controlled 9 tails and knew everything about Bijuu so of course


This doesn’t change the fact that his estimations of strength were wrong; as Sasuke could not capture Killer-B. So logically we can just say he thought the gap between the 9-Tails capabilities and Hachibi’s was much bigger then it turned out to be. So unless you can prove he knew Hachibi could use CTBB, your point is flawed as Obito estimations were wrong.

Also yet another alternative explanation that can debunk this premise is Obito could have grossly overestimated Sasuke potential, as he goes on to once again grossly overestimate Sasuke potential during the Kage Summit.

Ether way your premise doesn’t work as your relying on Obito opinion which was proven wrong.


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> This doesn’t change the fact that his estimations of strength were wrong; as Sasuke could not capture Killer-B. So logically we can just say he thought the gap between the 9-Tails capabilities and Hachibi’s was much bigger then it turned out to be. So unless you can prove he knew Hachibi could use CTBB, your point is flawed as Obito estimations were wrong.
> 
> Also yet another alternative explanation that can debunk this premise is Obito could have grossly overestimated Sasuke potential, as he goes on to once again grossly overestimate Sasuke potential during the Kage Summit.
> 
> Ether way your premise doesn’t work as your relying on Obito opinion which was proven wrong.



How can he be wrong when he specifically states the Bijuu has to be sealed in order of strength , he had an eye of the moon plan which required the power of the Bijuu then he goes on to use 6POP to control the Jins he knew the full power of the tailed beast , also he knows Sasuke MS needs to be developed over a period of time he says so himself , he knew Sasuke lost his Hebi powers , he knew Sasuke was injured from his fight with Itachi yet he still sent him after Bee , and it sort of makes sense when you think about the narrative the minute Sasuke used the black flames he forced Bee to retreat and Bee even states that Sasuke is one of the stronger guys he fought and that was based around one MS technique then later on we see that Bee has slightly worse or at best for your sake around the same portrayal as Itachi in his Edo form .

There is more evidence of Sasuke(MS) & Bee being around the same level meaning Ei 3 is weaker than Bee meaning are max he can take down one Sannin at most , you need more evidence in the plot narrative , beating Hachibi w/o a host and getting his chest caved in by a Naruto SM clone isn’t helping his case .


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## Turrin (Nov 7, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> How can he be wrong when he specifically states the Bijuu has to be sealed in order of strength , he had an eye of the moon plan which required the power of the Bijuu then he goes on to use 6POP to control the Jins he knew the full power of the tailed beast , also he knows Sasuke MS needs to be developed over a period of time he says so himself , he knew Sasuke lost his Hebi powers , he knew Sasuke was injured from his fight with Itachi yet he still sent him after Bee , and it sort of makes sense when you think about the narrative the minute Sasuke used the black flames he forced Bee to retreat and Bee even states that Sasuke is one of the stronger guys he fought and that was based around one MS technique then later on we see that Bee has slightly worse or at best for your sake around the same portrayal as Itachi in his Edo form .
> 
> There is more evidence of Sasuke(MS) & Bee being around the same level meaning Ei 3 is weaker than Bee meaning are max he can take down one Sannin at most , you need more evidence in the plot narrative , beating Hachibi w/o a host and getting his chest caved in by a Naruto SM clone isn’t helping his case .


Your asking me how he can be wrong when he literally was wrong. That’s nonsensical

Amaterasu did not force B to flee, B took advantage of it to go goof off. I mean are really trying to push the agenda that B is around Sasuke’s level with just Amaterasu? Come on man.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 7, 2020)

@Eliyua23, I like you and all but Turrin is right here. Killer Bee didn't care about Amaterasu lol, he just faked the pain and used it as an excuse to leave the village. The next time we see him, he's completely fine and joking with Gyuki about it as if nothing bad happened.

Also, Obito himself admitted that he underestimated Bee.


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Your asking me how he can be wrong when he literally was wrong. That’s nonsensical
> 
> Amaterasu did not force B to flee, B took advantage of it to go goof off. I mean are really trying to push the agenda that B is around Sasuke’s level with just Amaterasu? Come on man.



Even if he was wrong about Bee he still knew Sasuke’s condition , he still
Knew Sasuke was injured , no Hebi powers , no Susanoo/Enton/Black flames that’s the point .

Yeah but it was still something that put pause to cause , and guess what Bee states after seeing black flames Sasuke is one of the strongest guys he’s ever fought .


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 8, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Even if he was wrong about Bee he still knew Sasuke’s condition , he still
> Knew Sasuke was injured , no Hebi powers , no Susanoo/Enton/Black flames that’s the point


Proof he knew Sasuke's condition? There's also the fact that whereas Obito underestimated Bee, he overestimated Sasuke. In fact, Obito is a TERRIBLE judge of things in general and has a long tradition of being miserably wrong and underestimating his foes.

Obito thought Sasuke was strong enough to weaken the Five Kage and their bodyguards enough that Obito could take them hostage. He and Zetsu also thought Naruto was ''probably'' stronger than Sasuke when there in fact was a MASSIVE gap between them.

It later turned out that Obito was..._very_ wrong (lol). Sasuke would've died against the Mizukage if not for Zetsu's intervention and then to Onoki if not for Obito himself personally appearing on the scene. Dude also underestimated Minato (who took him down and thwarted his attempts to steal Kurama), Naruto (whom he outright admits exceeded his expectations), and even Konan (who effectively killed him if not for Izanagi).

Also, Obito is literally the guy who thought of going to war with the Allied Shinobi Forces using nothing but fodder Zetsu clones and his statue lol. Considering that he lost even with Kabuto's help (and Kabuto literally gave him the keys to create his own Six Paths of Pain as well as amped up the Zetsu clones), it's clear Obito is a horrible long term planner and has a terrible gauge of others' abilities.


Eliyua23 said:


> Yeah but it was still something that put pause to cause , and guess what Bee states after seeing black flames Sasuke is one of the strongest guys he’s ever fought


So what lol? Sasuke was still way weaker and Bee essentially negged Sasuke's strongest jutsu at the time.

I do believe a Sasuke who mastered Susano'o and Inferno Style could beat Bee though.


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 8, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Proof he knew Sasuke's condition? There's also the fact that whereas Obito underestimated Bee, he overestimated Sasuke. In fact, Obito is a TERRIBLE judge of things in general and has a long tradition of being miserably wrong and underestimating his foes.
> 
> Obito thought Sasuke was strong enough to weaken the Five Kage and their bodyguards enough that Obito could take them hostage. He and Zetsu also thought Naruto was ''probably'' stronger than Sasuke when there in fact was a MASSIVE gap between them.
> 
> ...



He watched the fight , saw Sasuke absorb Orochimaru, actually is the one who helped Sasuke heal from injuries , knew he had an embryo MS .

No he didn’t he sent Sasuke to the 5 Kages primarily to develop his MS prowess so he can replace him with Nagato .

? Zetsu was right Naruto was stronger than Sasuke 

He forced Minato to use DRS , infiltrated the village successfully took down the Hokage took control of the 9 tails , which caused the Uchiha to be blamed which lead to the coup , even Minato states Obito saw thru his plans and from his perspective won their encounter so no .

1 The Zetsu clones were deadly because of their cloning technique the alliance had to be saved by Naruto and most would’ve died if he didn’t enter the battle and guess what Raikage & Tsunade intended to hide Naruto and Bee so if not for TNJ and emotion sensing Obito would’ve won with his zetsu army .

2. Sasuke if he develops EMS could take down most of the alliance seeing as how Madara took on all 5 Kage , then you add in him and the Rinnegan and yes they could’ve taken on the whole world at that point especially of the alliance hides Naruto .

He was weaker because he only had one MS technique but the fact he had an MS automatically made him one of the strongest Bee has ever fought 

I put Fully mastered MS Sasuke , Bee , Sannin , Ei 3 all around the same level


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 8, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> He watched the fight , saw Sasuke absorb Orochimaru, actually is the one who helped Sasuke heal from injuries ,


Irrelevant.


Eliyua23 said:


> knew he had an embryo MS


Lol wut? What's an ''embryo MS''? 


Eliyua23 said:


> No he didn’t he sent Sasuke to the 5 Kages primarily to develop his MS prowess so he can replace him with Nagato


Yes, he did. Obito outright said he was hoping , but Sasuke _failed_.


Eliyua23 said:


> ? Zetsu was right Naruto was stronger than Sasuke


There's a difference between Naruto being ''probably'' stronger than Sasuke and Naruto being_ definitively _stronger than Sasuke.

Naruto, of course, was the latter.


Eliyua23 said:


> He forced Minato to use DRS , infiltrated the village successfully took down the Hokage took control of the 9 tails , which caused the Uchiha to be blamed which lead to the coup , even Minato states Obito saw thru his plans and from his perspective won their encounter so no


Still lost the fight to Minato. Still lost Kurama. Obito getting some things right doesn't change the fact a LOT of things went wrong lol.


Eliyua23 said:


> 1 The Zetsu clones were deadly because of their cloning technique the alliance had to be saved by Naruto and most would’ve died if he didn’t enter the battle and guess what Raikage & Tsunade intended to hide Naruto and Bee so if not for TNJ and emotion sensing Obito would’ve won with his zetsu army


The Zetsu army were close to worthless on their own lol. Naruto_ did_ save the Alliance, so not sure why you're bringing that up.

It's because of Kabuto's zombies there even was anything resembling a war. The Zetsu clones were a problem for one night at best.


Eliyua23 said:


> 2. Sasuke if he develops EMS could take down most of the alliance


Sasuke doesn't care about the Alliance lol. In fact, the dude is infamous for betraying pretty much everyone he's worked with.

Dude was cool with killing Obito himself. You really think Sasuke forgot that Obito helped Itachi murder Sasuke's clan?

Even if Sasuke did destroy the Alliance (big if), he'd kill Obito next.


Eliyua23 said:


> seeing as how Madara took on all 5 Kage


Sasuke wasn't anywhere near Madara's level early in the War Arc.

By the time he DID reach Madara's level, he would've been a danger to Obito himself lol.


Eliyua23 said:


> then you add in him and the Rinnegan and yes they could’ve taken on the whole world at that point especially of the alliance hides Naruto


Lol wut? Obito effectively lost to a weakened Naruto, Bee, Guy, and Kakashi alone. 


Eliyua23 said:


> He was weaker because he only had one MS technique but the fact he had an MS automatically made him one of the strongest Bee has ever fought


Still much weaker than Bee.


Eliyua23 said:


> I put Fully mastered MS Sasuke , Bee , Sannin , Ei 3 all around the same level


Yeah, that's fair. Bee is just on the top


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 8, 2020)

Frog song gg


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## Turrin (Nov 8, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Even if he was wrong about Bee he still knew Sasuke’s condition , he still
> Knew Sasuke was injured , no Hebi powers , no Susanoo/Enton/Black flames that’s the point .
> 
> Yeah but it was still something that put pause to cause , and guess what Bee states after seeing black flames Sasuke is one of the strongest guys he’s ever fought .


Your only outlining how he was not just wrong, but horribly wrong.

For example it’s like me scaling All 5 Gokage (including Koto Danzo) + Mifune + 10 Elite Body Guards to Sasuke’s level with just Rib-Cage Susanoo and Enton (and Obito may not have even know about that), because he thought Sasuke would be able to take on the Gokage summit.

This is utter silliness


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## Bob74h (Nov 8, 2020)

A, sr fought gyuki evenly and even managed to beat him numerous times so the sannin get stomped saying as they scale to version 2 naruto at best but even thats fallacious saying as orochi and jiraya nearly died from fighting with kyubi naruto


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## ShadowBlade77 (Nov 8, 2020)

Based on PORTRAYAL (the favourite argument of the Sanninband), A3 stomps. Fighting 10 000 shinobi solo for three days and nights/fighting Hachibi to a stalemate >> loosing to Hanzo while three-to-one (plus some fodder), who also happens to be generous enough to let them live.

ck

Starting in base and in character screws the Sannin royaly. With full knowledge, A3 goes for Tsunade first (since she's the medic) and one-shoots her before she even think of going Byakogu. Then he one-shoots Jiraiya to prevent him from going Sage Mode. Summons (if they get summoned at all) get sliced to pieces, just like Hachibi's tentacles. Orochimaru is literally the only valuable player in his team, since he can most likely survive A3 attack due to is regen/Oral Rebirth/true form jumping out of his body, and his poison should be able to bypass A3's durability. But with full knowledge, A3 will opt for hit-and-run tactic, so the chances of him inhaling the poison are minimal.

The Sannin need Byakogu and Sage Mode to win this.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## riousrain (Nov 8, 2020)

ShadowBlade77 said:


> Based on PORTRAYAL (the favourite argument of the Sanninband), A3 stomps. Fighting 10 000 shinobi solo for three days and nights/fighting Hachibi to a stalemate >> loosing to Hanzo while three-to-one (plus some fodder), who also happens to be generous enough to let them live.
> 
> ck


One of the sannin is said to be able to defeat Pain with full knowledge, and another sannin was credited for winning Konoha the second world war. Three of them combined ain't losing the portrayal battle.



ShadowBlade77 said:


> Starting in base and in character screws the Sannin royaly. With full knowledge, A3 goes for Tsunade first (since she's the medic) and one-shoots her before she even think of going Byakogu.


Tsunade's 4th medic rule is that she's only allowed to do battle with Byakugo activated. Where did you get the idea she won't start with it? She also stayed alive for hours after being cut in half. How is she getting one-shotted?



ShadowBlade77 said:


> Then he one-shoots Jiraiya to prevent him from going Sage Mode.


Not gonna happen when he'll be busy with Tsunade and Oro.



ShadowBlade77 said:


> Orochimaru is literally the only valuable player in his team, since he can most likely survive A3 attack due to is regen/Oral Rebirth/true form jumping out of his body, and his poison should be able to bypass A3's durability. But with full knowledge, A3 will opt for hit-and-run tactic, so the chances of him inhaling the poison are minimal.


Mandara no jin and Byakugo-boosted Daitoppa keeps him at bay for a while giving the other sannin more openings/more time to reach sage mode.

Killing one sannin will already be difficult for him. He ain't surviving all three.


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Your only outlining how he was not just wrong, but horribly wrong.
> 
> For example it’s like me scaling All 5 Gokage (including Koto Danzo) + Mifune + 10 Elite Body Guards to Sasuke’s level with just Rib-Cage Susanoo and Enton (and Obito may not have even know about that), because he thought Sasuke would be able to take on the Gokage summit.
> 
> This is utter silliness



He didn’t think he could take on the summit he sent him there to train his MS and to specifically take out Danzo , it was an infiltration mission and they got found out his intention wasn’t for Sasuke to take on the entire alliance and defeat them so those are are two separate arguments .


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## Turrin (Nov 8, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> He didn’t think he could take on the summit he sent him there to train his MS and to specifically take out Danzo , it was an infiltration mission and they got found out his intention wasn’t for Sasuke to take on the entire alliance and defeat them so those are are two separate arguments .


He was hoping Sasuke would improve his ocular powers and weaken the Summit enough to take Gokage Hostage:

He outright admitted he overestimated Sasuke, and it was too much to ask for.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 8, 2020)

Yo, I think @Turrin is a troll, but he's 100% right on this point.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Nov 8, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yo, I think @Turrin is a troll, but he's 100% right on this point.


Says the guy whose afraid for a formal debate, on the issue that he believes I’m trolling on lol

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Says the guy whose afraid for a formal debate


But why would I formally debate you? I don't find you worth debating.


Turrin said:


> on the issue that he believes I’m trolling on lol


Not believes, are...


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## ShadowBlade77 (Nov 8, 2020)

riousrain said:


> One of the sannin is said to be able to defeat Pain with full knowledge, and another sannin was credited for winning Konoha the second world war. Three of them combined ain't losing the portrayal battle.


The same Sannin who outright  to deal with *three *out of *six *Paths of Pain? The same three Paths that Fukasaku considered ? Sure.

By "winning" you ment "", right? With no small part of her contribution being her medical expertise? That's cool, but I'll take a clear cut *fighting 10 000 shinobi solo for three days and nights* over a vague statment anyday.


riousrain said:


> Tsunade's 4th medic rule is that she's only allowed to do battle with Byakugo activated. Where did you get the idea she won't start with it? She also stayed alive for hours after being cut in half. How is she getting one-shotted?


Well, there was that time when she decided to use Byakugo only after being sufficiently shit talked by Madara (someone whose portrayal dwarfs A3's, btw), in the battle that might decide the fate of the world.
ck
By getting either decapitated or bisected vertically.


riousrain said:


> Mandara no jin and Byakugo-boosted Daitoppa keeps him at bay for a while giving the other sannin more openings/more time to reach sage mode.
> 
> Killing one sannin will already be difficult for him. He ain't surviving all three.


Snakes get electrocuted or A3 decides to, well, run around them. Same with "Byakugo-boosted Daitopa", not that it's even a thing since Tsunade is the first to fall.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Nov 8, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> But why would I formally debate you? I don't find you worth debating.
> 
> Not believes, are...


Why so you keep trying to engage me in a debate then Aegon lol. Your so obviously a coward

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> He was hoping Sasuke would improve his ocular powers and weaken the Summit enough to take Gokage Hostage:
> 
> He outright admitted he overestimated Sasuke, and it was too much to ask for.



He did that he took Ei 4’s arm and took out Danzo

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Nov 8, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> He did that he took Ei 4’s arm and took out Danzo


He didn’t though, as they were not weakened to the point where Obito could take them hostages and Obito literally in that panel I posted admits as much Eliyua. Your like straight denying canon now.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 8, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> He did that he took Ei 4’s arm


Which is not the same as taking Ay4 himself down, given that Ay4 could still function effectively without his arm and Obito _failed_ to take him hostage. Sasuke completely failed to harm Mei, Gaara, or Onoki. A huge portion of the FKS powerhouses were still ready to go.


Eliyua23 said:


> and took out Danzo


That's like 1/5 Kages - one completely on his lonesome with his allies defeated - and Sasuke still nearly lost lol.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Why so you keep trying to engage me in a debate then Aegon lol


I'm not trying to engage you in a debate, dawg. I'm trying to tell @Eliyua23 that in spite of your trolling ways you are right on this topic.


Turrin said:


> Your so obviously a coward


It's ''you're'', and to be a coward would imply I am scared of you, which I am not.


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## Turrin (Nov 9, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I'm not trying to engage you in a debate, dawg. I'm trying to tell @Eliyua23 that in spite of your trolling ways you are right on this topic.
> 
> It's ''you're'', and to be a coward would imply I am scared of you, which I am not.


But you are lol, won’t even officially debate me on the topic your so but hurt about

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> He didn’t though, as they were not weakened to the point where Obito could take them hostages and Obito literally in that panel I posted admits as much Eliyua. Your like straight denying canon now.



He also went there for Sasuke to grow his MS so he can connect him to the demonic statue and to take out Danzo , did he accomplish everything no but he had multiple agendas , he ONLY sent Sasuke to Cloud Village to stop Bee not to mention he was there as backup and your the one who thinks Obito is > Ei3 who can take out the Sannin so Sasuke + Obito should be enough to do some damage if need be , he did not send him there all by himself with Taka .


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## Turrin (Nov 10, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> He also went there for Sasuke to grow his MS so he can connect him to the demonic statue and to take out Danzo , did he accomplish everything no but he had multiple agendas , he ONLY sent Sasuke to Cloud Village to stop Bee not to mention he was there as backup and your the one who thinks Obito is > Ei3 who can take out the Sannin so Sasuke + Obito should be enough to do some damage if need be , he did not send him there all by himself with Taka .


Saying he had multiple agendas, doesn’t address my point Eliyua. He still was wrong about Sasuke’s ability to weaken the Gokage; meaning he overestimated Sasuke; and this in turn means we can’t trust his estimations of Sasuke to be accurate. Given this, I’m not going to take Obito’s faulty estimations of Sasuke’s capabilities over what is directly shown in canon. I’m not sure why you don’t understand this


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Saying he had multiple agendas, doesn’t address my point Eliyua. He still was wrong about Sasuke’s ability to weaken the Gokage; meaning he overestimated Sasuke; and this in turn means we can’t trust his estimations of Sasuke to be accurate. Given this, I’m not going to take Obito’s faulty estimations of Sasuke’s capabilities over what is directly shown in canon. I’m not sure why you don’t understand this



He says that but at the beginning Zetsu states Sasuke isn’t as strong as Naruto , he states that Sasuke could one day become stronger than Nagato whom also wouldn’t have been able to weaken the Kage as he lost in a situation more favorable than the summit in konoha , then after the Danzo fight states he wanted to throw Sasuke at the Kage to train his MS so he could hook him to the demonic statue all of those comments contradict the point of him thinking Sasuke was strong enough to take down the alliance , and also there is context to weakening them . Remember they were supposed to infiltrate but they got caught and that’s when Ei4 stepped in so taking hostages could have been possible if they weren’t detected by a sensor .


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## Turrin (Nov 10, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> He says that but at the beginning Zetsu states Sasuke isn’t as strong as Naruto , he states that Sasuke could one day become stronger than Nagato whom also wouldn’t have been able to weaken the Kage as he lost in a situation more favorable than the summit in konoha , then after the Danzo fight states he wanted to throw Sasuke at the Kage to train his MS so he could hook him to the demonic statue all of those comments contradict the point of him thinking Sasuke was strong enough to take down the alliance , and also there is context to weakening them . Remember they were supposed to infiltrate but they got caught and that’s when Ei4 stepped in so taking hostages could have been possible if they weren’t detected by a sensor .


Their is no contradiction; Obito thought Sasuke would become strong enough battling the Gokage that he could beat them with his new found strength, he was wrong as he overestimated Sasuke’s ability to improve and achieve that level just like he did against B.


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Their is no contradiction; Obito thought Sasuke would become strong enough battling the Gokage that he could beat them with his new found strength, he was wrong as he overestimated Sasuke’s ability to improve and achieve that level just like he did against B.


Those statements do as if he knows Sasuke has to grow MS how is he going to be equipped to take out the Kage doesn’t make sense , now if he already had S4 Susanoo beforehand I could see that but no way is he beating 5 Kage without Susanoo .


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## Turrin (Nov 10, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Those statements do as if he knows Sasuke has to grow MS how is he going to be equipped to take out the Kage doesn’t make sense , now if he already had S4 Susanoo beforehand I could see that but no way is he beating 5 Kage without Susanoo .


Yeah that’s right the statement doesn’t make sense and was wrong; so why should we trust Obito had it right with Hachibi. Do you get it now


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 10, 2020)

Depending on stips, A3 has a solid chance to take it

He needs Jiraiya to start in base for one

And if the distance is like 15m, at least one Sannin (likely Jiraiya) is going down in seconds and and from there it's downhill

Tsunade/Oro have no shot at putting him down especially when A3 is wary of body toxins

Most they can hope for is like a Byakugō-enhanced Yamata to stall A3 while Jiraiya preps SM and then Frog Song but no amount of amping is saving Yamata from being diced with Nukite, nor Oro himself

50/50 depending on how the Sannin play their cards with zero knowledge, but full knowledge for their adversary really fucks them because it more-or-less guarantees Jiraiya dies almost immediately

And quite honestly A3 has the hype to be at this level; someone *KCM Naruto *was flabbergasted just watching fight fodder and can stalemate Bijū has the portrayal chops to solo the Sannin sans SM from jump street

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 11, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yeah that’s right the statement doesn’t make sense and was wrong; so why should we trust Obito had it right with Hachibi. Do you get it now



It doesn’t make sense from your perspective because Obito scales to 100% 9 tails which scales to the founders meaning you basically have a founder + MS Sasuke which means they could’ve have easily took hostages if they saw fit , no he was there for Sasuke to take Danzo out and for Sasuke to grow his MS .


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## Turrin (Nov 11, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> It doesn’t make sense from your perspective because Obito scales to 100% 9 tails which scales to the founders meaning you basically have a founder + MS Sasuke which means they could’ve have easily took hostages if they saw fit , no he was there for Sasuke to take Danzo out and for Sasuke to grow his MS .


These are two separate debates Eliyua.

If you want to concede that he was wrong about Sasuke’s abilities, then we can talk about why Obito being around 9-Tails level still couldn’t win against the Kage Summit.

But there is no point debating with you when your going to deny canon facts. Obito says he sent Sasuke there hoping he would weaken the Gokage; he then says he was wrong and overestimated Sasuke. Can you accept this fact: yes or no?


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## hbcaptain (Nov 11, 2020)

Nah, A3 ain't beating the collective sannin. At worst, he gets trapped by frog song and sealed.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 11, 2020)

Turrin said:


> These are two separate debates Eliyua.
> 
> If you want to concede that he was wrong about Sasuke’s abilities, then we can talk about why Obito being around 9-Tails level still couldn’t win against the Kage Summit.
> 
> But there is no point debating with you when your going to deny canon facts. Obito says he sent Sasuke there hoping he would weaken the Gokage; he then says he was wrong and overestimated Sasuke. Can you accept this fact: yes or no?




You see it there he specifically says he sent Sasuke here to develop his Susanoo .

Also beforehand C seeing Sasuke only use Enton and the Black Flames thought it was possible that he could capture bee so no too much is adding up now you have Ce who thinks Sasuke even w/o Susanoo is close to Bee’s
Level .


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 11, 2020)

Turrin said:


> But you are lol, won’t even officially debate me on the topic your so but hurt about



Not butthurt, just cringing.


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## Turrin (Nov 11, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> You see it there he specifically says he sent Sasuke here to develop his Susanoo .
> 
> Also beforehand C seeing Sasuke only use Enton and the Black Flames thought it was possible that he could capture bee so no too much is adding up now you have Ce who thinks Sasuke even w/o Susanoo is close to Bee’s
> Level .


Are you trolling me? Because literally in that same page it also says he was hoping Sasuke would be strong enough to weaken the Gokage and he was wrong.
—
All that tells us is that C underestimated B; as Sasuke couldn’t capture him; which actually fits with the narrative as even Ei4 greatly underestimated B.


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## Turrin (Nov 11, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Not butthurt, just cringing.


Your cringing from the pain of your but hurt; or me slapping you around so much in debates?


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## Symmetry (Nov 11, 2020)

ShadowBlade77 said:


> The same Sannin who outright *Link Removed* to deal with *three *out of *six *Paths of Pain?


This was before Jiriaya realized that each path could only use one ability. When he made this statement he was under the assumption that each one could summon and absorb ninjutsu. Besides, Pain disagrees with your assumption. Full knowledge Jman I’m the rain village beats Pain as per Pain’s own admission.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 11, 2020)

Orochimaru op said:


> Full knowledge Jman I’m the rain village beats Pain as per Pain’s own admission.



Lol wut?

Pain never said that. Pain said that Jiraiya would have won with knowledge of Pain's ''secret'' in the singular (knowledge that* the ''true'' Pain wasn't there*, knowledge Jiraiya died to provide the Hidden Leaf in a coded form) in, not Pain's ''secrets'' in the plural.


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## Symmetry (Nov 11, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Lol wut?
> 
> Pain never said that. Pain said that Jiraiya would have won with knowledge of Pain's ''secret'' in the singular (knowledge that* the ''true'' Pain wasn't there*, knowledge Jiraiya died to provide the Hidden Leaf in a coded form) in, not Pain's ''secrets'' in the plural.


So had Jman known the real Pain wasn’t there he would have beaten Pain, okay then

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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 11, 2020)

Orochimaru op said:


> So had Jman known the real Pain wasn’t there he would have beaten Pain, okay then



Yep.

It would just be a matter of hiding well, preparing Frog Song, and then going directly for Nagato himself. This would be pretty easy when Jiraiya's fighting only three paths like we saw - perfectly doable, in fact. Jiraiya can do what Naruto did with a rod to sense Nagato's position. Any Paths who hear the song get taken out, and Nagato himself eats a stone sword under the song's influence...Pain knew what he was talking about lol.

Jiraiya *with this knowledge but all other things the same as in the actual manga fight *would've won.


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 12, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Are you trolling me? Because literally in that same page it also says he was hoping Sasuke would be strong enough to weaken the Gokage and he was wrong.
> —
> All that tells us is that C underestimated B; as Sasuke couldn’t capture him; which actually fits with the narrative as even Ei4 greatly underestimated B.



The outcome wasn’t solely dependent on Sasuke’s strength though , they were tipped off and already on alert because Danzo got caught by AO .

Bottom line Obito says out of his mouth his main purpose was to develop Sasuke’s MS to Susanoo which was correct taking hostages was a constellation prize .

Sasuke only used Black Flames once he did not have Enton yet and guess what even Bee states Sasuke is one of the strongest guys he faced and that’s before seeing Enton or Susanoo 

So we have Obito , C , Ei 4 all

underestimating Bee 

Bee himself claiming Sasuke pre Enton/Susanoo was one of the strongest he faced and he faced Minato with backup from his brother 

Bee himself sort of praising Itachi who had fully developed MS 

It just doesn’t add up to me this is what the author intended to be Bee’s portrayal


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## Turrin (Nov 12, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> The outcome wasn’t solely dependent on Sasuke’s strength though , they were tipped off and already on alert because Danzo got caught by AO .
> 
> Bottom line Obito says out of his mouth his main purpose was to develop Sasuke’s MS to Susanoo which was correct taking hostages was a constellation prize .
> 
> ...


Look man I stopped reading, at Obito said out of his mouth; because he said out of his mouth he thought Sasuke could take on the Gokage and weaken them; and was wrong too. So until you acknowledge that their is no point engaging you any further because your behind intellectually dishonest

Reactions: Like 1


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 12, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Look man I stopped reading, at Obito said out of his mouth; because he said out of his mouth he thought Sasuke could take on the Gokage and weaken them; and was wrong too. So until you acknowledge that their is no point engaging you any further because your behind intellectually dishonest



What about C , what about what Bee said ?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Nov 12, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> What about C , what about what Bee said ?


I will address those after you concede the point on Obito; as right now I can’t engage someone who is actively denying a direct statement from the manga; while being fully aware of the page it occurs on


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 12, 2020)

Yeah, @Eliyua23, you need to concede. 

I made the exact same point about Obito.


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## Sufex (Nov 13, 2020)

Orochimaru op said:


> The idea that one kage who isn’t Naruto or Hashirama can solo all three Sanin at the same time is funny to me


Kabuto has a decent chance and nagato definatley does. Bm minato, EMS sasuke and WA Naruto  low diffs as well.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Look man I stopped reading, at Obito said out of his mouth; because he said out of his mouth he thought Sasuke could take on the Gokage and weaken them; and was wrong too. So until you acknowledge that their is no point engaging you any further because your behind intellectually dishonest





Turrin said:


> I will address those after you concede the point on Obito; as right now I can’t engage someone who is actively denying a direct statement from the manga; while being fully aware of the page it occurs on



I already said Obito thought Sasuke could help him take down the Kage , I’m not disputing that , the Obito angle is one thing even himself and his own village comrades thought Sasuke was a threat to his power . Remember we’re talking about Bee who is actually stronger than Hachibi by himself .


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## Turrin (Nov 13, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> I already said Obito thought Sasuke could help him take down the Kage , I’m not disputing that , the Obito angle is one thing even himself and his own village comrades thought Sasuke was a threat to his power . Remember we’re talking about Bee who is actually stronger than Hachibi by himself .


Okay so Obito estimation of Sasuke was wrong twice; so Obito’s estimations shouldn’t be taken seriously. Agree to that and drop the Obito point; then we can talk about C’s comment if you want


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## Symmetry (Nov 13, 2020)

Sufex said:


> Kabuto has a decent chance and nagato definatley does. Bm minato, EMS sasuke and WA Naruto  low diffs as well.


None of those ppl are kage tho 

except for Minato but when I think of kage Minato I think of alive Minato


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Okay so Obito estimation of Sasuke was wrong twice; so Obito’s estimations shouldn’t be taken seriously. Agree to that and drop the Obito point; then we can talk about C’s comment if you want



If you want to take out Obito’s comments fine , but you still have Bee and Canada comments .


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## Turrin (Nov 13, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> If you want to take out Obito’s comments fine , but you still have Bee and Canada comments .


B said Sasuke was one of the toughest he fought; that doesn’t mean anything. I could do a vs match against my friend in Ninja storm and he could hit me a few times and that could be the strongest I’ve faced ever in that game if no one else I’ve played ever hit me that many times. So can we drop the B comment? If so I will move onto C.


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## Santoryu (Nov 13, 2020)

Sannin bros and hoes. we must replicate and remonstrate when discussing matters of material substance. Tsunade dodges with V2 AY speed, tanks with her Raikage level durability, and strikes with her tsunade level strength. Orochimaru can supplement with thousands years of preparation, and our Toad Sage can do so with two thousand years; i.e, achieving Sage Mode under favourable conditions. 


Institution: Sannin University 
Author: Santoryu
Co author: Draco Bolton

References:
Naruto Manga, _Chapter 1-245, Part 1, Viz Translations_, translated by Turin

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Nov 13, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> Sannin bros and hoes. we must replicate and remonstrate when discussing matters of material substance. Tsunade dodges with V2 AY speed, tanks with her Raikage level durability, and strikes with her tsunade level strength. Orochimaru can supplement with thousands years of preparation, and our Toad Sage can do so with two thousand years; i.e, achieving Sage Mode under favourable conditions.
> 
> 
> Institution: Sannin University
> ...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> B said Sasuke was one of the toughest he fought; that doesn’t mean anything. I could do a vs match against my friend in Ninja storm and he could hit me a few times and that could be the strongest I’ve faced ever in that game if no one else I’ve played ever hit me that many times. So can we drop the B comment? If so I will move onto C.


Go ahead talk about C


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## Turrin (Nov 13, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Go ahead talk about C


Okay so your aware that all of Kumogakuru are unaware of B’s true power right? As it’s stated that Ei4 began underestimating him the moment the Third Raikage died; and he sent him to Unraikyo. This was back during the third war; so they have been ignorant of his true power for 17 Years.

C also says Sasuke might have been able to do it. So at best you have C saying Sasuke has a chance (unknown how likely) of capturing 17 Years Younger B. This doesn’t help your argument at all. Especially when C was literally wrong and Sasuke failed to capture B.


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Okay so your aware that all of Kumogakuru are unaware of B’s true power right? As it’s stated that Ei4 began underestimating him the moment the Third Raikage died; and he sent him to Unraikyo. This was back during the third war; so they have been ignorant of his true power for 17 Years.
> 
> C also says Sasuke might have been able to do it. So at best you have C saying Sasuke has a chance (unknown how likely) of capturing 17 Years Younger B. This doesn’t help your argument at all. Especially when C was literally wrong and Sasuke failed to capture B.



They can be ignorant of Bee’s
Power but not the Hachibi’s power as the village plus his dad the 3rd Raikage fought him on many occasions.

remember Bee is stronger than Hachibi by himself and the crux of this argument is Ei3 vs Hachibi , C might not know all about Bee but from his perspective seeing some of the MS could make him think he has a shot of taking down the Hachibi , and remember that version of Sasuke is not on the level with Orochimaru nor Jiriaya


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## Turrin (Nov 13, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> They can be ignorant of Bee’s
> Power but not the Hachibi’s power as the village plus his dad the 3rd Raikage fought him on many occasions.
> 
> remember Bee is stronger than Hachibi by himself and the crux of this argument is Ei3 vs Hachibi , C might not know all about Bee but from his perspective seeing some of the MS could make him think he has a shot of taking down the Hachibi , and remember that version of Sasuke is not on the level with Orochimaru nor Jiriaya


Okay so when they sent B to Unraikyo it was to train his TBB. So it’s implied B could t use the TBB (or not very well) prior to Unraikyo. My entire point for B/ Hachibi being so strong is CTBB & Charged TBB, which B likely couldn’t use at the time.

So no we don’t have an indication that B 17 Years Ago when he was still training TBB was stronger then Hachibi, who we know can use TBB/CTBB/Charged TBB.


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## Ludi (Nov 13, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> References:
> Naruto Manga, _Chapter 1-245, Part 1,_

Reactions: Funny 2


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Okay so when they sent B to Unraikyo it was to train his TBB. So it’s implied B could t use the TBB (or not very well) prior to Unraikyo. My entire point for B/ Hachibi being so strong is CTBB & Charged TBB, which B likely couldn’t use at the time.
> 
> So no we don’t have an indication that B 17 Years Ago when he was still training TBB was stronger then Hachibi, who we know can use TBB/CTBB/Charged TBB.


Dam i wish you actually slapped me around this well much more often

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (Nov 13, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Dam i wish you actually slapped me around this well much more often


Once again I do so every time

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Turrin (Nov 13, 2020)

@ThirdRidoku 

I agree it is funny how bad you get slapped

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I’m not going to take this forward when half your points are AD Nauseam repeats. You won’t even concede the point on Living Ei3 = Edo Ei3, which I outright proved was false. Your just being dishonest now to avoid a concession.


Edo Ei3 is ALMOST as strong as Living Ei3 as per canon man my goodness.

Hiruzen: "you are as fast as ever Minato!"

a ten percent reduction in speed is what the canon suggests, tops.

And when Temari hits him with Fuuton, Dodai notes he is as resilient as ever, meaning the damage he was taking there unarmored was not out of the realm of expectation from his ultimate shield.

You are underestimating the gap between 90 m/s and 100 m/s

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Turrin (Nov 13, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Edo Ei3 is ALMOST as strong as Living Ei3 as per canon man my goodness.
> 
> Hiruzen: "you are as fast as ever Minato!"
> 
> ...


I stopped reading at almost. If someone is almost as strong, they aren’t as strong. So once again the point about Living Ei3 = Edo Ei3 is canonically false; and Living Ei3 is > Edo Ei3. And I won’t even both addressing your other points until you concede this

Reactions: Funny 2


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I stopped reading at almost. If someone is almost as strong, they aren’t as strong. So once again the point about Living Ei3 = Edo Ei3 is canonically false; and Living Ei3 is > Edo Ei3. And I won’t even both addressing your other points until you concede this


Lol yes Living A3> Edo A3

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Okay so when they sent B to Unraikyo it was to train his TBB. So it’s implied B could t use the TBB (or not very well) prior to Unraikyo. My entire point for B/ Hachibi being so strong is CTBB & Charged TBB, which B likely couldn’t use at the time.
> 
> So no we don’t have an indication that B 17 Years Ago when he was still training TBB was stronger then Hachibi, who we know can use TBB/CTBB/Charged TBB.



But Ei3 fought Hachibi alone not Bee + Hachibi so even if you say Bee got better with his TBB/CTBB that would be the combo of the two together .


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## Turrin (Nov 13, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> But Ei3 fought Hachibi alone not Bee + Hachibi so even if you say Bee got better with his TBB/CTBB that would be the combo of the two together .


I never said he got better with, I said could he even use those at all. So can you prove B could even use TBB prior to training in Unraikyo 17 Years Ago, let alone CTBB and Charged TBB.


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## Turrin (Nov 13, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Lol yes Living A3> Edo A3


is that an emoji of your face after I’ve slapped you begging that I stop?

Anyway let me know when you want to stop being a baby and be intellectually honest about this discussion and admit living Ei3 > Edo Ei3

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Sufex (Nov 14, 2020)

Orochimaru op said:


> None of those ppl are kage tho
> 
> except for Minato but when I think of kage Minato I think of alive Minato


Naruto is a  kage


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I never said he got better with, I said could he even use those at all. So can you prove B could even use TBB prior to training in Unraikyo 17 Years Ago, let alone CTBB and Charged TBB.



Why are we comparing 17 year old Bee to Hachibi ?  The point is the manga states a jinchuriki with perfect control of the beast is stronger than the beast by itself . And I don’t know when Bee could use TBB wasn’t explained

Reactions: Like 1


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## Symmetry (Nov 14, 2020)

Sufex said:


> Naruto is a  kage


WA Naruto isn’t a kage 

Obviously kage Naruto solo’s 

I meant kage as they were kage. Imo only Hashirama, Tobirama and Naruto as kage can beat the sannin trio. Any other kage beating the trio is funny to me


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## Turrin (Nov 14, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Why are we comparing 17 year old Bee to Hachibi ?  The point is the manga states a jinchuriki with perfect control of the beast is stronger than the beast by itself . And I don’t know when Bee could use TBB wasn’t explained


You seem to have lost track of the conversation Eliyua. I said Hachibi is > Sannin (individually due to Continous TB

You were the one comparing Hachibi to Killer-B, as you were trying to scale Killer-B weaker then the Sannin due to C’s statements (and therefore Hachibi too). But as I told you C is not aware of Killer-B strength after his training at Unraikyo. And it’s at Unraikyo where Killer-B trained his mastery of TBB. So I asked you to provide proof that Killer-B could use CTBb prior to his training at Unraikyo. Because if you can’t prove this, then Cs statement is irrelevant; as it’s referring to a Killer-B who had not fully mastered Hachibi Power; and does not have the Power that I’m saying puts Hachibi above a Sannin (CTBB).

So do you have any proof Killer-B could use CTBB prior to training in Unraikyo; or are you going to concede this whole Killer-B argument, and we can go back to comparing each Sannin to Hachibi.


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> You seem to have lost track of the conversation Eliyua. I said Hachibi is > Sannin (individually due to Continous TB
> 
> You were the one comparing Hachibi to Killer-B, as you were trying to scale Killer-B weaker then the Sannin due to C’s statements (and therefore Hachibi too). But as I told you C is not aware of Killer-B strength after his training at Unraikyo. And it’s at Unraikyo where Killer-B trained his mastery of TBB. So I asked you to provide proof that Killer-B could use CTBb prior to his training at Unraikyo. Because if you can’t prove this, then Cs statement is irrelevant; as it’s referring to a Killer-B who had not fully mastered Hachibi Power; and does not have the Power that I’m saying puts Hachibi above a Sannin (CTBB).
> 
> So do you have any proof Killer-B could use CTBB prior to training in Unraikyo; or are you going to concede this whole Killer-B argument, and we can go back to comparing each Sannin to Hachibi.



Hold on are you saying Hachibi is stronger than each Sannin , or that Hachibi is stronger than all 3 of the Sannin ?


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## Turrin (Nov 15, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Hold on are you saying Hachibi is stronger than each Sannin , or that Hachibi is stronger than all 3 of the Sannin ?


It’s my opinion that Hachibi is definitely stronger then the Sannin individually. Combined it’s hard to say, as that really depends on how Tsunade can boost the other two Sannin’s Jutsu. But I would say the Sannin are still likely inferior to Hachibi, simply due to it being unlikely even Amp’d by Tsunade they can recreate the power of CTBB (but it’s more debatable).

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## Eliyua23 (Nov 15, 2020)

Turrin said:


> It’s my opinion that Hachibi is definitel





Turrin said:


> It’s my opinion that Hachibi is definitely stronger then the Sannin individually. Combined it’s hard to say, as that really depends on how Tsunade can boost the other two Sannin’s Jutsu. But I would say the Sannin are still likely inferior to Hachibi, simply due to it being unlikely even Amp’d by Tsunade they can recreate the power of CTBB (but it’s more debatable).



I mean if you think Hachibi > Sannin individually I don’t agree but it’s understandable and you could make that argument but not all 3 no way , Sannin are all stronger than all Gokage besides Onoki and was amped enough to face PS which is >>>>Hachibi.


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## Turrin (Nov 15, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> I mean if you think Hachibi > Sannin individually I don’t agree but it’s understandable and you could make that argument but not all 3 no way , Sannin are all stronger than all Gokage besides Onoki and was amped enough to face PS which is >>>>Hachibi.


But they weren’t amped enough to face PS; as they literally lost to PS, so that argument makes no sense


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 15, 2020)

Turrin said:


> But they weren’t amped enough to face PS; as they literally lost to PS, so that argument makes no sense



Point is Sannin are closer to the Gokage than Hachibi is to PS


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## Turrin (Nov 15, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Point is Sannin are closer to the Gokage than Hachibi is to PS


I still don’t see the point as the Gokage weren’t close to P-Susanoo ether


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I still don’t see the point as the Gokage weren’t close to P-Susanoo ether



They were close than Hachibi is


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> They were close than Hachibi is


Based on what?


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## ThirdRidoku (Nov 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> is that an emoji of your face after I’ve slapped you begging that I stop?
> 
> Anyway let me know when you want to stop being a baby and be intellectually honest about this discussion and admit living Ei3 > Edo Ei3


Living Ei3>Edo Ei3


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Based on what?


Based on them having better abilities to defend themselves


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Based on them having better abilities to defend themselves


They showed zero ability to defend themselves against P-Susanoo


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Living Ei3>Edo Ei3


Okay, cool so now can you admit that the difference between Living versions and Edos physically is significant; as Blind Madara > Edo EMS/Rinnegan Madara?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 16, 2020)

I’ve been told by an educated fellow A3 due to his chakra level might in fact be immune to frog call

this is getting worse for the Sannin 

@New Folder @Lyren  any thoughts on this new discovery


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## Lyren (Nov 17, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> I’ve been told by an educated fellow A3 due to his chakra level might in fact be immune to frog call
> 
> this is getting worse for the Sannin
> 
> @New Folder @Lyren  any thoughts on this new discovery


 
Obito could put kurama under genjutsu despite his chakra volume being nowhere close to that of Kurama 
It has nothing to do with chakra quantity lol 

Having a lot of chakra just helps in breaking standard genjutsu on your OWN by pouring chakra into your cranial system but if you cant do that in the first place then its bust, which impossible to do when you are paralyzed as seen with Nagato failing to break free from frog song regardless of his ability to transfer uzumaki lvl chakra to his paths


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 17, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Obito could put kurama under genjutsu despite his chakra volume being nowhere close to that of Kurama
> It has nothing to do with chakra quantity lol
> 
> Having a lot of chakra just helps in breaking standard genjutsu on your OWN by pouring chakra into your cranial system but if you cant do that in the first place then its bust, which impossible to do when you are paralyzed as seen with Nagato failing to break free from frog song regardless of his ability to transfer uzumaki lvl chakra to his paths


Ok
I just heard this from an educated naruto king that’s all


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 17, 2020)

Turrin said:


> They showed zero ability to defend themselves against P-Susanoo



The meteor , Susanoo clones , Tsunade being cut in half ?


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## MHA massive fan (Nov 17, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> The meteor , Susanoo clones , Tsunade being cut in half ?


PS power >> meteors seeing Ps could casually cut those meteors 

susanoo clones each with 4% of Madara power 

not exactly comparable 

Tsunade could have been cut in half by other things . Susanoo sword is too dam big to have only cut her in half it’s more likely to crush her than cut her


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## Turrin (Nov 17, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> The meteor , Susanoo clones , Tsunade being cut in half ?


That isn’t P-Susanoo, so are you concede that your P-Susanoo argument was wrong and dropping that?
—-
As far as those moves go, what evidence do we have Hachibi couldn’t deal with them. CTBB could bust meteors. Susanoo clones loose to CTBB.

We don’t know what cut Tsunade in half; so I can just say prove Hachibi would have even been cut in half in Tsunade’s spot?


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 17, 2020)

Turrin said:


> That isn’t P-Susanoo, so are you concede that your P-Susanoo argument was wrong and dropping that?
> —-
> As far as those moves go, what evidence do we have Hachibi couldn’t deal with them. CTBB could bust meteors. Susanoo clones loose to CTBB.
> 
> We don’t know what cut Tsunade in half; so I can just say prove Hachibi would have even been cut in half in Tsunade’s spot?


It’s still the power of Madara which Hachibi could not stand up to remember Bee couldn’t even beat a weaker Rinnegan Obito with Naruto


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## Turrin (Nov 17, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> It’s still the power of Madara which Hachibi could not stand up to remember Bee couldn’t even beat a weaker Rinnegan Obito with Naruto


And the Gokage couldn’t ether, so again your argument isn’t relevant. Nether force can stand up to Madara Full Power; but both can take on a portion of his power


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## God Of Naruto (Nov 17, 2020)

both sannin and Ay3 are the  most over hyped pieces of trash in the entire show they get cooked by darui


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## God Of Naruto (Nov 17, 2020)

base bee would cook Ay3


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