# Aokiji vs Monster Aizen



## ∞Eternity∞ (May 25, 2014)

Speed equal
Location wasteland


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## Iwandesu (May 25, 2014)

Aizen likely wins. 
Kyouka Suigetsu + 3 digit gigaton for casual attacks (scalling with kenpachi/gremmy meteor)
Are actually enough to be a threat to WB himself (even more with speed equal)


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## ∞Eternity∞ (May 25, 2014)

I don't think he can still use  kyouka suigetsu in this form but I could be wrong . If he can he is not allowed to use it  in scenario 1 and  in scenario 2 he is allowed to use it but speed is unequal .


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## TheOnlyOne1 (May 25, 2014)

Bleach scalings are so weird.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 25, 2014)

Yeah the casual gigaton scaling for Aizen and Dangai Ichigo always feels off


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## Aphelion (May 25, 2014)

Thespiritdetective said:


> I don't think he can still use  kyouka suigetsu in this form but I could be wrong . If he can he is not allowed to use it  in scenario 1 and  in scenario 2 he is allowed to use it but speed is unequal .



There's no reason for why he shouldn't be able to.

Aizen was just acting retarded at the time.


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## Tapion (May 25, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Yeah the casual gigaton scaling for Aizen and Dangai Ichigo always feels off



One of the two did destroy a mountain casually "in manga".


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## Dellinger (May 25, 2014)

^Was that really a mountain?


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## B Rabbit (May 25, 2014)

No 

But I'm sure Aizen wins it.


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## Tapion (May 25, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> ^Was that really a mountain?



kubo said it was, or by the supreme OBD rules and regulations, intended for it to be a mountain. While Statements and depiction didn't line up, the author has it that aizen/ichigo can mow down mountains...So it shouldn't be strange that they are capable of Kenpachi's or Yama-ji's feats.


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## DarkTorrent (May 25, 2014)

and Vatican is a country

just because something is called a country/island/mountain doesn't mean it's actually impressive in size


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## B Rabbit (May 25, 2014)

Starraver said:


> kubo said it was, or by the supreme OBD rules and regulations, intended for it to be a mountain. While Statements and depiction didn't line up, the author has it that aizen/ichigo can mow down mountains...So it shouldn't be strange that they are capable of Kenpachi's or Yama-ji's feats.



This is stupid.


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## J★J♥ (May 25, 2014)

Aokijis soul gets exploded because of the reatsu difference. Don't forget that one of those guys is spiritual being and the other is not.


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## Aphelion (May 25, 2014)

Not sure how the question of whether or not they were mountains is really relevant here.


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## Tapion (May 25, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> Not sure how the question of whether or not they were mountains is really relevant here.



Exactly. This was never an argument about weather or not it was a mountain. 

My point was that the Aizen/Ichigo being capable of mimicking Ken and G isn't really that outlandish. That is all.



B Rabbit said:


> This is stupid.



Glad you disagree.


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## DarkTorrent (May 25, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> Not sure how the question of whether or not they were mountains is really relevant here.



eh, it's the issue of their showings not living up to the level they are curently getting powerscaled to, hence the mountain discussion

but that's just Kubo screwing up his own power progression


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## B Rabbit (May 25, 2014)

I don't even think they should.

Neither of them at this point had the dc shown or potency to this.


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## Aphelion (May 25, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> eh, it's the issue of their showings not living up to the level they are curently getting powerscaled to, hence the mountain discussion
> 
> but that's just Kubo screwing up his own power levels



Hardly.

The "mountain busting" feat was about as casual as you can get.  It wasn't even the sword swing, but the shockwave produced by the sword swing that pulverized them.

All of their non casual attacks are completely unquantifiable, so there should be no issue scaling them to whatever.


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## Tapion (May 25, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> eh, it's the issue of their showings not living up to the level they are curently getting powerscaled to, hence the mountain discussion
> 
> but that's just Kubo's screwing up his own power levels



The Fragor, what values did that yield? Just curious...

Rechecked the chapter just for arguments sake, Mountain must be a mistranslation. Busting it with such ease Is quite impressive none the less.  

The way the are portrayed I don't think them matching kenapchi/yama-g would be hard to believe even with the feats they have.


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## B Rabbit (May 25, 2014)

It was like megatons.


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## Byrd (May 25, 2014)

what was it again... it would have to be in the gigatons to harm admirals


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## LineageCold (May 25, 2014)

I don't see the problem with Dangai ichigo & Monster azien being scaled to unpatched eye Kenny.

I know kubo is a complete jack ass (low showings & inconsistencies), but as far as kubo was hinting Dangai ichigo>>>current Kenny.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 25, 2014)

I wish it was the other way around, Ken-chan deserves this (and he didn't deserve getting rescued by Ichigo)


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## Tapion (May 25, 2014)

That already happened In HM, Ichigo is now returning the favour.


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## DarkTorrent (May 25, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> All of their non casual attacks are completely unquantifiable



which is the problem?

Kubo didn't manage to properly portray what makes Transcendants so godly, all of their actually gaugeable feats were below lanza's showing. He relied purely on his beloved blitz trope and hype.



> so there should be no issue scaling them to whatever.



and I'm not saying that you can't scale them to whatever because of this



Starraver said:


> The Fragor, what values did that yield? Just curious...



7 MT


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## Byrd (May 25, 2014)

7 megatons??

Aokiji would laugh at that


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## Aphelion (May 25, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> which is the problem?
> 
> Kubo didn't manage to properly portray what makes Transcendants so godly, all of their actually gaugeable feats were below lanza's showing. He relied purely on his beloved blitz trope and hype.


I dunno, big black curtains of death and "distoring space and time" sound pretty godly to me, even if the latter doesn't mean much scientifically 







> and I'm not saying that you can't scale them to whatever because of this
> 
> 
> 
> 7 MT



For one thing, that attack was casual, for another, judging explosions by their size is only so effective in fiction.  The explosion Gremmy's clone produced was tiny yet it hurt Kenpachi far more than the meteor impact did.


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## DarkTorrent (May 25, 2014)

that's all fine and dandy, but you are missing the point

hype doesn't always get accepted at face value, sometimes it gets diregarded because a character's actual showings do not live up to it (f.e. Hiruzen, several FT characters)

whether or not this should be the case here is another story, which I, personally, have no interest to partake in

but I see that others do, so have fun


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## Aphelion (May 25, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> that's all fine and dandy, but you are missing the point
> 
> hype doesn't always get accepted at face value, *sometimes it gets diregarded because a character's actual showings do not live up to it* (f.e. Hiruzen, several FT characters)
> 
> ...



And as I've explained, that isn't the case.


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## Darth Niggatron (May 26, 2014)

Aizen, Dangai, and possibly, Yama get scaled to the gigatons.
Aizen rapes.


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## Linkofone (May 26, 2014)

So ... Aizen can be scaled to Ken?


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## DarkTorrent (May 26, 2014)

yeah

this version can be


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## Darth Niggatron (May 26, 2014)

Yea. Transcendent>>>>not transcendent.
Even if Kenny busts a planet, Aizen would still get scaled to it.
Or would he?


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## LoveLessNHK (May 26, 2014)

Linkofone said:


> Is that base on the fact that Aizen was more powerful than Ken at that time or is it just because Aizen is supposedly stronger than Ken at all times?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's based on the fact that Aizen had Transcended above others, meaning, he was so much stronger (or, rather, had so much more spiritual energy) that they could not feel his power. Even after Kenpachi's upgrade he was 'felt' by fodder. Though, Ken still had his eyepatch on... so maybe that means something.


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## Linkofone (May 26, 2014)

But aren't these stronger fodders?


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## Chad (May 26, 2014)

Anyone who is also _portrayed_ to be > Kenpachi/Gremmy should get casual gigatons.


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## DarkTorrent (May 26, 2014)

Linko said:
			
		

> Is that base on the fact that Aizen was more powerful than Ken at that time or is it just because Aizen is supposedly stronger than Ken at all times?



Monster Aizen is a transcendent

basically he reached a godly status within his verse

so until Kenny (or any other character) also reach the transcendent status, all of his feats can be scaled to Aizen


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## LoveLessNHK (May 26, 2014)

Linkofone said:


> But aren't these stronger fodders?



I was talking about the shinigami fodder that got whipped out by the girls. I don't know how strong they are, I just know they are fodder.


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## Linkofone (May 26, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> Monster Aizen is a transcendant
> 
> basically he reached a godly status within his verse



Sorry DT, no disrespect but I couldn't read that statement with a strait face. 



LoveLessNHK said:


> I was talking about the shinigami fodder that got whipped out by the girls. I don't know how strong they are, I just know they are fodder.





Oh, ok. That makes sense I guess.


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## Chad (May 26, 2014)

Though Haschwalds statement in the meteor chapter makes me doubt powerscaling top tiers to Gremmy.


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## Linkofone (May 26, 2014)

> DarkTorrent said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...



I guess to find this out, I'll have to keep reading.


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## trance (May 26, 2014)

Didn't GM revise Whitebeard's island splitter at 1.2 teratons?


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## LazyWaka (May 26, 2014)

LoveLessNHK said:


> It's based on the fact that Aizen had Transcended above others, meaning, he was so much stronger (or, rather, had so much more spiritual energy) that they could not feel his power. *Even after Kenpachi's upgrade he was 'felt' by fodder*. Though, Ken still had his eyepatch on... so maybe that means something.



But said fodder also pointed out how strange it was that they couldn't feel his Reiatsu a moment before that.


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## Linkofone (May 26, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> But said fodder also pointed out how strange it was that they couldn't feel his Reiatsu a moment before that.



But what does that mean?


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## Aphelion (May 26, 2014)

Astral said:


> Though Haschwalds statement in the meteor chapter makes me doubt powerscaling top tiers to Gremmy.



It would make absolutely no sense for Yhwach himself to be weaker than Gremmy or Kenpachi.  Based on him staring nonchalantly up at the Meteor, I think Haschwalth was just taking precautions/was unaware that it didn't pose a threat to him.

Though this does make it highly doubtful that Hasch himself gets the scaling.


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## LoveLessNHK (May 26, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> But said fodder also pointed out how strange it was that they couldn't feel his Reiatsu a moment before that.



Yeah, I have no idea what that was about.

First I thought it was a comment to lead us toward the possibility that Kenpachi showing up when he did was a result of Gremmy's imagination... but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Then I thought perhaps it was to lead us to think Kenpachi had Transcended, but that only makes sense if we assume Kenpahci lowered his powers right after in order to fight Gremmy... which kind of makes sense with his character I suppose, but there's nothing to really prove if that is true or not.


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## Chad (May 26, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> It would make absolutely no sense for Yhwach himself to be weaker than Gremmy or Kenpachi.  Based on him staring nonchalantly up at the Meteor, I think Haschwalth was just taking precautions/was unaware that it didn't pose a threat to him.
> 
> Though this does make it highly doubtful that Hasch himself gets the scaling.



Sorry, I meant durability wise. Gremmy says he would be able to tank the meteor, so some people were talking about scaling top-tiers durability to Gremmy. But Haschwald highly suggests that Juha would have been killed or at least severely injured, so it sounds a little iffy to me.


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## Aphelion (May 26, 2014)

Astral said:


> Sorry, I meant durability wise. Gremmy says he would be able to tank the meteor, so some people were talking about scaling top-tiers durability to Gremmy. But Haschwald highly suggests that Juha would have been killed or at least severely injured, so it sounds a little iffy to me.



All Haschbrowns said was "protect his majesty."  I think it was more out of a sense of loyalty than anything else, on the off chance that something did happen to him.  Besides, it's not a given that he knows the extent of Yhwachs abilities.

And again, Juha's reaction(or lack thereof) should be pretty telling in regards to how much of a threat the Meteor posed to him.


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## Linkofone (May 26, 2014)

I guess that makes sense.


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## Vicotex (May 26, 2014)

the days are finally here where ￎOPverse can no longer solo bleachverse


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## Dellinger (May 26, 2014)

Vicotex said:


> the days are finally here where ￎOPverse can no longer solo bleachverse



WB still wrecks them.


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## Darth Niggatron (May 26, 2014)

WB can definitely not solo Bleach.


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## Tray (May 26, 2014)

Vicotex said:


> the days are finally here where ￎOPverse can no longer solo bleachverse


How does a verse "solo" another verse?
Regardless, this never happened


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## Hamaru (May 26, 2014)

Like I said YEARS ago, based on the inverse square law, Monster Aizen's power was  ridiculous. I stated that he would be beyond what Kenpachi did years ago, but nooooo, nobody wanted to listen. Kenpachi destroyed the meteor with his shikai. With the destruction shown by the air pressure of Aizen's swing, he would be able to easily replicate the destructive power with casual swings.


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## Iwandesu (May 26, 2014)

Hamaru said:


> Like I said YEARS ago, based on the inverse square law, Monster Aizen's power was  ridiculous. I stated that he would be beyond what Kenpachi did years ago, but nooooo, nobody wanted to listen. Kenpachi destroyed the meteor with his shikai. With the destruction shown by the air pressure of Aizen's swing, he would be able to easily replicate the destructive power with casual swings.


If this feat happened YEARS ago,  they would call the scalling bullshit on the same way they called yours.
Also, where can I find this inverse square calc you're talking about?


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## Akatora (May 26, 2014)

Some feats should be taken with precaurcion.

Gremmy being able to tank the feat should in general not be equal to others since it is his ability that made him so confident.
Yes Buckbeard probably could have taken the hit, but it is highly doubtful how many others could.


Regarding Aizen, I'm kinda interest in the fact it's so rarely mentioned that he can erase matter that get to close to him.(Like he erased weak spirits and how his touch was enough to remove part of Gin's Arm)


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## Iwandesu (May 26, 2014)

Akatora said:


> Some feats should be taken with precaurcion.
> 
> Gremmy being able to tank the feat should in general not be equal to others since it is his ability that made him so confident.
> Yes Buckbeard probably could have taken the hit, but it is highly doubtful how many others could.
> ...


Cuz this only matters when characters are weaker or on the same level of Gin. (And anyone which will ever be enough of a threat for monster Aizen to one use this argument, is stupidly above Gin.)


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## KaiserWombat (May 26, 2014)

The Gin example is also a little weird: Aizen can erase a portion of the guy's wrist, yet when he has the opportunity to target his whole arm, he chooses to simply rip the limb out of its socket instead?

The erasure of the Kotosu, which is explicitly described as Gin as a "being of reason" (a.k.a composed of standard matter) and an entity that apparently nobody in Seireitei could successfully seal away or destroy via traditional means (well, at least characters as powerful as Gin and Isshin couldn't; uncertain if an individual like Yamamoto could accomplish the task if sufficiently motivated), is probably a better argument for Aizen's matter-erasing hijinks.


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## kaminogan (May 26, 2014)

how hot is a fragor ?

EDIT: asking because lava > whitebeard,


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## Iwandesu (May 26, 2014)

kaminogan said:


> how hot is a fragor ?
> 
> EDIT:* asking because lava > whitebeard*,


 
Millions of degrees due to having more energy than a nuke. (Akainu lava is likely the same)


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## kaminogan (May 26, 2014)

crap, just realized this is a fight between aokiji, not white beard,

massive brain fart, proceed with caution 

whats aokijis strongest attack ?


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## Byrd (May 26, 2014)

His strongest attack hasn't been shown but he is probably in the gigatons


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## Aphelion (May 26, 2014)

Byrd said:


> His strongest attack hasn't been shown but he is probably in the gigatons



It's very possible that a basic Fragor is already in the gigatons.  Like I said eariler, explosion size and AOE can be very poor indicators of DC in fiction.  Just look at verses like Gurren Lagann.


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## DarkTorrent (May 26, 2014)

Um... knowing what the attack has destroyed and how is the only indicator of DC in fiction. Sure there are instances where unimpressive attacks harmed characters with high durability. But guess what... that still relies on knowing what attack that they tanked previously or should be able to tank via powerscaling has destroyed and how. That is how we know what their durability is in the first place.

This is silly.


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## Aphelion (May 26, 2014)

Not the point.  A lot of the time authors throw physics out the window.  Superman tanked a blast that was the equivlant of multiple supernovas, yet it only covered a small portion of the moon.  Gohan's kamehameha never went into space after it killed Cell, and while it should have been easily planet busting, it didn't destroy the planet.



> that still relies on knowing what attack that they tanked previously or *should be able to tank via powerscaling* has destroyed and how.



Yup.


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## LineageCold (May 26, 2014)

Perfect example of low showings/Lol mangaka.


*Spoiler*: __ 






(Base jariaya being slam dozen of meters into bedrock without a scratch)


(hit with a Exaton Air pressure & went only 30 meters further than base jariaya.


(King piccolo causal hand blast)



(Picolo: Other translation says he used almost all his power on that blast)


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## DarkTorrent (May 26, 2014)

> Not the point



no, you are missing the point 

powerscaling relies:



> *on knowing what attack* that they should be able to tank *has destroyed and how*



with Kamehameha, we know it's planet level since it harmed characters that can tank planet busting attacks. The author has given us knowledge on how destructive their attacks are by *showning planets getting destroyed*. He showed us what matter, how much of it and how it was destroyed. We just didn't assume that arbitrary.

And with Superman we are still given knowledge on how destructive the attack actually is, when we are told it's an equivalent of several supernovas. We know this attack is actually destructive because we know *what several supernovas can destroy and how*.


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## Aphelion (May 26, 2014)

So there's no problem then.

Just like in your two examples, we know Monster Aizen should casually be in the gigatons because *an obviously weaker character was able to destroy a meteor with a generic sword swing.*


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## DarkTorrent (May 26, 2014)

The part I did not agree with was you saying that because AoE and size of an attack is a poor indicator of DC Fragor can be in gigatons. That is shaky logic.

And even the one you are using now is also shaky because:

a) that wasn't a casual swing from Kenpachi, it was his strongest attack that we've seen so far. So only the strongest attack from Monster Aizen is at that level, not casual Fragor. They are not that far from each other if the comment about Kenny's reiatsu in Shikai not being senseable is anything to go by.

b) Fragor never harmed anyone with durability in gigatons


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## Aphelion (May 26, 2014)

> The part I did not agree with was you saying that because AoE and size of an attack is a poor indicator of DC Fragor can be in gigatons. That is shaky logic.


It *can be* a poor indicator.  I and LC provided examples of where it is.



> that wasn't a casual swing from Kenpachi, it was his strongest attack that we've seen so far.



Just because it's the strongest attack we've seen thus far doesn't mean it wasn't casual.  There wasn't much visible effort on his part.  He didn't even have to remove his eyepatch or use Kendo.



> They are not that far from each other if the comment about Kenny's reiatsu in Shikai not being senseable is anything to go by.



Whatever happened there, it was detectable throught the duration of their fight, so whether or not he was transcendent level beforehand or something is irrelevant here.



> Fragor never harmed anyone with durability in gigatons


U wot m8

[sp][/sp]


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## Kensei13 (May 26, 2014)

Aizen's form was his 4th transformation, after injecting the hogyoku and surpassing his Shinigami self. He's way stronger than Kenpachi, even if the latter has also reached transcendence. There are different levels of transcendence. Refer back to Aizen's 3rd dimensional being analogy regarding Ichigo's reiatsu being undetectable.


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## DarkTorrent (May 26, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> It *can be* a poor indicator.  I and LC provided examples of where it is.



Which doesn't make you using that to make the conclusion about the likelihood of gigaton Fragor any less shaky.



> Just because it's the strongest attack we've seen thus far doesn't mean it wasn't casual.  There wasn't much visible effort on his part.  He didn't even have to remove his eyepatch or use Kendo.



And yet it also drained him considerably, so much that he became an easy target for the Bambi team.



> Whatever happened there, it was detectable throught the duration of their fight, so whether or not he was transcendent level beforehand or something is irrelevant here.



Um... so he was transcendent level before their fight and stopped being one during the fight? I'm not getting why you are making an emphasis on "beforehand" here.



> U wot m8
> 
> [sp][/sp]



see that example is also shaky because not a moment later Aizen makes this comment:


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## Aphelion (May 26, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> Which doesn't make you using that to make the conclusion about the likelihood of gigaton Fragor any less shaky.


So we're clear on the issue that it can sometimes be a poor indicator?





> And yet it also drained him considerably, so much that he became an easy target for the Bambi team.


Based on the visuals, it's quite clear that was mostly the work of the space attack and the kamakazi clone(which is another example of disproportionate explosions size btw)





> Um... so he was transcendent level before their fight and stopped being one during the fight? I'm not getting why you are making an emphasis on "beforehand" here.


I'm just speculating on his statement.  The important fact is, his Reatsu was detectable to fodder.





> see that example is also shaky because not a moment later Aizen makes this comment:



I've read a few different translations of that part, and what he's saying seems to be basically that Ichigo no longer stands a chance against him, partly because of his injury and partly because of Aizens new form, not that Ichigo devolved or anything.  It doesn't even matter that much since the next page shows that Aizen is full of shit.


*Spoiler*: __


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## Iwandesu (May 26, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> Which doesn't make you using that to make the conclusion about the likelihood of gigaton Fragor any less shaky.
> And yet it also drained him considerably,* so much that he became an easy target for the Bambi team*.
> Um... so he was transcendent level before their fight and stopped being one during the fight? I'm not getting why you are making an emphasis on "beforehand" here.
> see that example is also shaky because not a moment later Aizen makes this comment:


Kenpachi couldn't be sensed by fooders(for secs) while high tiers couldn't sense  4th Aizen.
Bambi fights has no bearing with the meteor. (In fact gremmy fucked kenpachi with outer space, the meteor was casually destroyed)


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## DarkTorrent (May 26, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> So we're clear on the issue that it can sometimes be a poor indicator?



except that was never the issue

the issue was you using that to justify gigaton Fragor



> Based on the visuals, it's quite clear that was mostly the work of the space attack and the kamakazi clone(which is another example of disproportionate explosions size btw)



the space attack wasn't supposed to be harmful to him in the first place, but whatever

this doesn't exaplain Kenpachi losing so much reiatsu



> I'm just speculating on his statement.  The important fact is, his Reatsu was detectable to fodder.



can you provide the scans where the fodders suddenly get able to sense his reiatsu?

not getting why Kubo would emphasize their inability to sense his reiatsu just to go 180



> I've read a few different translations of that part, and what he's saying seems to be basically that Ichigo no longer stands a chance against him, partly because of his injury and partly because of Aizens new form, not that Ichigo devolved or anything.  It doesn't even matter that much since the next page shows that Aizen is full of shit.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



which can be as easily interpreted as Ichigo once again starting to reach transcendent status, after all next page he went FGT


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## Aphelion (May 26, 2014)

> except that was never the issue
> 
> the issue was you using that to justify gigaton Fragor



Just making sure 




> the space attack wasn't supposed to be harmful to him in the first place



I hope you mean scientifically, because it sure as fuck was indicated to be hurting him a lot.





> this doesn't exaplain Kenpachi losing so much reiatsu


His reiatsu wavered as a result of all the damage he took.



> can you provide the scans where the fodders suddenly get able to sense his reiatsu?







> which can be as easily interpretated as Ichigo once again starting to reach transcendent status, after all next page he went FGT



Yes, he further transcended *after* he transformed.  Aizen only remarks that he can't sense his reiatsu *after* the transformation.  He broke his grip and dispelled the attack before that.

EDIT:

I think I misread what you meant.  There isn't any proof that the power up started before he actually started transforming.


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## Aphelion (May 26, 2014)

> and anyway, again in every other instance iirc, where characters were significantly injured, we never saw something like their reiatsu wavering to this degree happening, they were still able to continue to fight



Well, we're usually not told directly that their reiatsu is wavering, but there have certainly been instances when a character cannot fight a full capacity due to his or her injuries.  That's why Ichigo was defenseless against Nnoitra's fraccione.  Hell, the first fight in the manga had Rukia being too injured to do anything against the hollow attacking Ichigo's family, which is why she had to resort to giving him her powers.



> I'm just making the conclusion based on what little information is given.
> 
> Before the fortress they were unable to sense him, the moment it appeared - they sensed him. Kenpachi didn't do anything in the meanwhile. Only Gremmy did.



Not saying it's impossible, but with the lack of evidence it's nothing more than speculation at this point.



> And correct me if I'm wrong, Shinji was shown to sense him only when he was in his weakened state.


What he sensed was the reatsu drop from when he was finished fighting Gremmy, to when the Quincy girls ganged up on him.  When he was done with Gremmy, he was in pretty bad shape, but still kicking and able fight.  

Also another thing.

Kenpachi being trancendent level would mean Gremmy is also transcendent to some degree...

I shouldn't have to explain why that doesn't make much sense.



> only if he wasn't aware of it



No reason for why he wouldn't be.  He was certainly aware of it after he used FGT and his powers started to fade.



> from what I'm understanding it happened after Aizen transformed



Well no, nothing was shown changing Ichigo himself.  It was just that Aizen blasted him with a Fragor and his arm got messed up.  Aizen was actually surprised as to how little damage he took, so his opinions on Ichigo's power are dubious at best.


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## DarkTorrent (May 26, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> Well, we're usually not told directly that their reiatsu is wavering, but there have certainly been instances when a character cannot fight a full capacity due to his or her injuries.  That's why Ichigo was defenseless against Nnoitra's fraccione.  Hell, the first fight in the manga had Rukia being too injured to do anything against the hollow attacking Ichigo's family, which is why she had to resort to giving him her powers.



true

but it all comes down to how significantly they were injured in each instant and each character's ability to fight despite injury

and Kenny was kind of both shown and hyped to be among the best in that area



> Not saying it's impossible, but with the lack of evidence it's nothing more than speculation at this point.



the little evidence that we do have points to that direction



> What he sensed was the reatsu drop from when he was finished fighting Gremmy, to when the Quincy girls ganged up on him.  When he was done with Gremmy, he was in pretty bad shape, but still kicking and able fight.



yeah, we saw how he was able to fight 

but anyway, he was still weakened significantly after the battle wasn't he? I think we both agree that he lost a lot of reiatsu during the battle, so much that he became an easy target for the Bambi team. And that can explain him being senseable after the Fortress collapsed



> Also another thing.
> 
> Kenpachi being trancendent level would mean Gremmy is also transcendent to some degree...
> 
> I shouldn't have to explain why that doesn't make much sense.



the whole battle with Gremmy and Gremmy himself don't make sense 

and anyway, didn't Gremmy himself claim that he is the strongest sternritter? If that's true, then he is only weaker than Juha, and Juha most likely is or will be actually close to transcendent level, if not there already. So Gremmy being around that ballpark isn't that much surprising. 

Same with Kenpachi, considering his hype.



> No reason for why he wouldn't be.  He was certainly aware of it after he used FGT and his powers started to fade.



then the lack of rection from him shouldn't be surprising



> Well no, nothing was shown changing Ichigo himself.  It was just that Aizen blasted him with a Fragor and his arm got messed up.  Aizen was actually surprised as to how little damage he took, so his opinions on Ichigo's power are dubious at best.



Which only proves that in Aizen's eyes Ichigo stopped being transcendent level at that point, given that the translation is true.

But anyway, from what I see your best bet in this little crusade for 100 GT Fragor of yours is proving that it was a mistranslation on MP's part, and that Fragor harmed a transcendent Ichigo.

Granted there are still bumps on that road, but it's still more productive than the whole casual/non-casual discussion.


----------



## Aphelion (May 26, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> I already provided why Kenpachi's strongest attack that he only used once being "casual" is dubious.
> 
> Other characters being able to fight and him being able to fight while having even worse injuries is concrete as it gets when it comes to your "he was injured" rebuttal.



It's kind of difficult to quantify injuries in a story like Bleach, but even by the verses standards, he had it quite bad.  His body was charred, his organs ruptured, he had his blood boiled, and a ton of bodily fluids sucked out of his mouth and eye sockets.  




> a) "just because it was his strongest doesn't mean it wasn't casual" is not a strong argument... at all


If little visible effort is put into attack, and the attacker shows no sign of fatigue afterwords, than yes, it's safe to assume that the attack is casual.



> b) all of his limiters might not be a thing anymore after his battle with Unohana, because that was what the whole purpose behind their battle - to remove all of Kenpachi's self-imposed limiters, for him to stop fearing being stronger than everyone and all that shit


Just because his limiters are removed doesn't mean he's constantly going all out.  He's still Kenpachi, who enjoys a good battle and may like to draw things out.  He just has access to his full potential now.



> possibly
> 
> or possibly not
> 
> like I've said, it's shaky


No, not really.  Aizen attacks Ichigo, his arm gets fucked up, Aizen starts talking about the sorry state Ichigo is in. Parsimony dictates he was referring to the after, not the before.




> but I'm not the one who wants to prove that Fragor hit a trascendent Ichigo, so it's not my job to eliminate doubts
> 
> my job is to provide them


You did, and I've explained why they're not issues.  Even if we accept the MP translation for the sake of argument, it wouldn't change anything.  You didn't even answer the points on Ichigos lack of reaction or Aizen's less than steller ability to gauge Ichigo's strength.







> except you didn't


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## Lurko (May 26, 2014)

This thread depends on if Aizen gets the Kenny scaling which he should imo.


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## Aphelion (May 27, 2014)

> again not as bad as with his battle with Unohana, when he was practically a skeleton


I'm about ninety nine percent certain that that was metaphorical.  Unohana was shown as a skeleton too and on the very next page they're both back to normal.



> except he might have shown the signs of fatigue afterwards, that may have been the reason behind his poor performance along with injuries against the Bambis, like I've pointed out before


The far more likely explanation, however, is that the attacks that caused the significant damage were the attacks that were actually shown to damage him ie. Galaxy Room and the suicide clone



> your argument for it being casual was the fact that he didn't remove his limiters, I've called that reasoning "flawed" because of the possibility that those limiters no longer exist, since the whole point of his "training" with Unohana was to remove them



The point of his battle with Unohana was to remove his subconscious mental limiters, not the eye-patch or his willingness to use Kendo, which are both things he himself can deal with.



> doesn't mean he wasn't going all out at that instance either


Well that's just wrong because if he did go all out then he would have been visibly tired.

Fuck it, let's drop the word casual and just say "medium effort"

I think we can agree on that.  Neither Fragor or Kenny's slash seemed to require much effort on either of their parts, yet at the same time, there isn't any hard proof that it was completely casual either.  Fair?



> and the fact that Aizen was surprised about how Fragor did so little damage implies that he was already considering Ichigo below transcendent level, hence him expecting Fragor to do more damage



You might have a point, if Aizen didn't say this.

*Spoiler*: __ 








He just finished having a panic attack because Ichigo was satisfied about stopping his sword.  Then he reveals that the Hogyoku boosted his power above Ichigo, meaning it was him that got stronger, not Ichigo that got weaker.  It's clear he was surprised the attack did so little damage to him because he was currently drunk with power, not because Ichigo had magically just regressed in form or something.



> I did for Ichigo's lack of reaction at least - it can very well indicate that he was expecting it, hence not reacting



He certainly expected the power decrease after he used Mugetsu, yet he still reacted to that.


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## Catalyst75 (May 27, 2014)

Given what we just recently saw Zaraki do to a meteorite that would have destroyed the Seireitei - and how Monster Aizen's power is literally in a dimension above any Shinigami - Monster Aizen could very well kill Aokiji.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 27, 2014)

Monster Aizen is a God. 

He gets whatever scaling until the Soul King does something.


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## LoveLessNHK (May 27, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> but those most likely are the psychological limiters they were referring to, that's the only thing they can refer to, given those are the only actual limiters that were mentioned in the manga
> 
> and the only way the act of removing an eye patch or using two hands instead of one giving a significant boost to reiatsu level makes sense, if those are psychological limiters



The fact that removing the eye patch increases Kenny's Reiryoku has nothing to do with a psychological limiter. The eye patch literally eats at his spiritual energy while he wears it. We saw this in Ichigo's fight with Kenny in the SS arc.

IIRC Kenny using both hands simply increases his striking strength, nothing more.


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## DarkTorrent (May 27, 2014)

didn't he change his eye patch?

but fair enough nonetheless


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## Freechoice (May 27, 2014)

Wow what? Motherfucking Aokiji loses to Aizen now?

First Nardo soloing OP, and now this?

I'm sad.


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## PlotHax (May 27, 2014)

What is the current DC for Kenpachi?


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## Regicide (May 27, 2014)

Not gonna bother to read through all five pages, but.. We still on this shit about scaling Aizen and Ichigo to Kenny and Gremmy?

There have been worse discrepancies between tiers and feats in other verses, this is really no different. Fragor and shit were lowballed anyways since we don't know the actual depth of the crater it made.


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## LazyWaka (May 27, 2014)

PlotHax said:


> What is the current DC for Kenpachi?



Island level+. Which isn't really enough to kill Aokiji since he could take teraton quakes from WB. So really this just becomes a war of attrition.


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## ShadowReaper (May 27, 2014)

Aokiji is a logia, so whatever you claim about spiritual difference is irrelevent if we go with this logic. 

And we don't have a single idea how big a country in Bleach verse is and hype can just be an overestimation, that we often see in mangas. Kuzan is capable at the very least to destroy a large island(given that both he and Akainu completely changed the weather in the island), can sustain island cracking blows(Akainu took a hit that did split MF in half and was ok afterwards) and can easily freeze someone like Doflamingo in a split second and he is one of the stronger Shichi's in OP world. So right now Kuzan may very well be stronger, but Bleach can just as easily boost its power levels to a new level.


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## Revan Reborn (May 27, 2014)

Now Time to calculate Aizen's ultrafragor
111*6=666gt
There He's not GOD but satan actually, delusional prick.


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## LazyWaka (May 27, 2014)

Cant calc like that.


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## Regicide (May 27, 2014)

Well, you _could_ multiply values of given shit if we're given an actual number on how much greater certain things are compared to each other.

Problem being that we have no idea how Ultrafragor actually works since Aizen never got the opportunity to use it.


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## B Rabbit (May 27, 2014)

It'll take a while, but Aokiji takes it.

Speed unequal
DC- 7 gigaton
Durability- 1.2 teraton.

Aokiji takes this.


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## Regicide (May 27, 2014)

Not seeing how Aokiji has the power to put down Aizen either. What with Mugetsu and all.

Seems like a stalemate, honestly, barring a combination of illusion bullshit and BFR from Aizen's part.


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## Chad (May 27, 2014)

Aizen's Ultrafragor gets scaled to Yamamoto's 2.2 teratons.

Jesus, stop wanking Em.


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## DarkTorrent (May 27, 2014)

No, it doesn't

only Mugetsu gets that scaling

though Aokiji's durability is not at 1.2 teratons either, his logia regen is

anyway, Regi pretty much nailed it


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## B Rabbit (May 27, 2014)

No it doesn't 


Kenny gets dura scalling?


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## Aphelion (May 27, 2014)

B Rabbit said:


> Speed unequal
> DC- 7 gigaton
> Durability- 1.2 teraton.
> 
> Aokiji takes this.



Are you just setting up your own scenario?  Because speed is equal here.

And Monster Aizen's durablity is 100+ gigatons.  Aokiji would be weared down eventually, considering he should have Kyouka Suigetsu.


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## B Rabbit (May 27, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> No, it doesn't
> 
> only Mugetsu gets that scaling
> 
> ...



I'm sure it is.

Since others below him tanked it without help.


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## DarkTorrent (May 27, 2014)

Who tanked WB's 1.2 teraton quake?


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## B Rabbit (May 27, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> Are you just setting up your own scenario?  Because speed is equal here.
> 
> And Monster Aizen's durablity is 100+ gigatons, plus he should have Kyouka Suigetsu.  Aokiji would be weared down eventually.



I'm talking without it. 



DarkTorrent said:


> Who tanked WB's 1.2 teraton quake?



Blackbeard, Akainu.


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## DarkTorrent (May 27, 2014)

> Blackbeard, Akainu.



You sure it wasn't a weaker attack, but the 1.2 teraton one specifically?

His quakes vary in strength considerably


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## Aphelion (May 27, 2014)

B Rabbit said:


> I'm talking without it.


Ok, but that's not what's being discussed here.


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## Dellinger (May 27, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> You sure it wasn't a weaker attack, but the 1.2 teraton one specifically?
> 
> His quakes vary in strength considerably



You think WB would hit Akainu with a weaker quake than the others?Hell no.


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## Byrd (May 27, 2014)

Our definition of tanking really needs to be work on..

The last time I check tanking indicates they can endure attacks will little to no problems...


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## DarkTorrent (May 27, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> You think WB would hit Akainu with a weaker quake than the others?Hell no.



If there are reasons for him to hold back, then yeah.

And OP is kind of famous for that, a lot of top tiers get forced to hold back for one reason or another, like wanting to avoid causing too much damage or fearing for their crews. WB is a prime example.

I think this issue was already brought several times already. Not sure what the consensus about this was though.


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## tkpirate (May 28, 2014)

with that meteor scaling and KS,Aizen should win this.


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## Bad Wolf (May 28, 2014)

Akainu with that attack was Ko.. And after WB was dying when he attacked BB. It's more logic that monster Aizen is stronger than Yamamoto shikai. Because it's obvious, he's trascendent.


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## Stermor (May 28, 2014)

kenpachi got hurt by a 1.2 ton tnt blast from one of the quincy girls. so glass canon bleach ftw..


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## Revan Reborn (May 28, 2014)

Im starting to suspect that the attacks are just for show, its all reiatsu


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## tkpirate (May 28, 2014)

Stermor said:


> kenpachi got hurt by a 1.2 ton tnt blast from one of the quincy girls. so glass canon bleach ftw..



Kenny was already fucked up when that attack hit him.so it shouldn't really matter.it only shows that those girls are just fodders.


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## Stermor (May 28, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> Kenny was already fucked up when that attack hit him.so it shouldn't really matter.it only shows that those girls are just fodders.



well he was injured already sure. but 5 attacks (likely even weaker since she was angry) took out kenpachi. 

this seems weird since well he suposedly has a billion times more durability.. so either our calcs are wrong, or she doesn't know the power of her attack. or well something is off..


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## AgentAAA (May 28, 2014)

Stermor said:


> well he was injured already sure. but 5 attacks (likely even weaker since she was angry) took out kenpachi.
> 
> this seems weird since well he suposedly has a billion times more durability.. so either our calcs are wrong, or she doesn't know the power of her attack. or well something is off..



or alternately, the author has no sense of scale. There's also the fact that the destructiveness of their abilities are done by the amount of reishi she put in, and could be higher than such a statement - particularly since she's no scientist and for the most part assuming at this point. It's a low-end and one that should be ignored as quickly and readily as Goku struggling with 40 tons.


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## Stermor (May 28, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> or alternately, the author has no sense of scale. There's also the fact that the destructiveness of their abilities are done by the amount of reishi she put in, and could be higher than such a statement - particularly since she's no scientist and for the most part assuming at this point. It's a low-end and one that should be ignored as quickly and readily as Goku struggling with 40 tons.



that could be true aswell, but isn't the chance we are wrong much higher then her not knowing how strong her ability's are? the destruction of buildings also seems pretty consistent with 1.2k tnt though..


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## tkpirate (May 28, 2014)

Stermor said:


> well he was injured already sure. but 5 attacks (likely even weaker since she was angry) took out kenpachi.
> 
> this seems weird since well he suposedly has a billion times more durability.. so either our calcs are wrong, or she doesn't know the power of her attack. or well something is off..



well,Kenny has that durability in his Shikai i think.when he took those attacks he was in base,also in a very bad physical condition.


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## ClandestineSchemer (May 28, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



5





*Spoiler*: __ 



Giga





*Spoiler*: __ 



Joules


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## Aphelion (May 28, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> or alternately, the author has no sense of scale. There's also the fact that the destructiveness of their abilities are done by the amount of reishi she put in, and could be higher than such a statement - particularly since she's no scientist and for the most part assuming at this point. It's a low-end and one that should be ignored as quickly and readily as Goku struggling with 40 tons.



Pretty much this.

The fact that her initial attacks were able to move kenny from "very injured but still mobile and able to fight" to "flat on the floor and completely immobile" proves she has no clue what she's talking about.



> well,Kenny has that durability in his Shikai i think.when he took those attacks he was in base,also in a very bad physical condition.


Zanpaktou transformations don't necessarily affect durability.


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## LazyWaka (May 28, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> Zanpaktou transformations don't necessarily affect durability.



But they increase reiatsu which does affect durability.


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## Aphelion (May 28, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> But they increase reiatsu which does affect durability.



To an unquantifiable degree though.


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## LazyWaka (May 28, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> To an unquantifiable degree though.



Yes, but it's still their, even if we cant tell by how much.


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## tkpirate (May 28, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> Zanpaktou transformations don't necessarily affect durability.



well,i'm no bleach specialist.but shikai Kenny is >base Kenny.so shikai Kenny's DC and durability should be>base Kenny too.


----------



## Linkofone (May 28, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This made me laugh. Very hard.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 28, 2014)

Linkofone said:


> This made me laugh. Very hard.


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## Linkofone (May 28, 2014)

So Aizen wins right? 


*Spoiler*: __ 









Oh God. Joey got really old looking.


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## Regicide (May 28, 2014)

Is Stermor seriously entertaining the possibility that the statement is anywhere near legit?

We have a metric fuckton of feats from characters which are far higher than the given value. Even individuals who aren't even on the level of vice captains like Chad back in the SS arc have superior shit.


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## Fujita (May 28, 2014)

Stermor said:


> kenpachi got hurt by a 1.2 ton tnt blast from one of the quincy girls. so glass canon bleach ftw..





Stermor said:


> well he was injured already sure. but 5 attacks (likely even weaker since she was angry) took out kenpachi.
> 
> this seems weird since well he suposedly has a billion times more durability.. so either our calcs are wrong, or she doesn't know the power of her attack. or well something is off..





Stermor said:


> that could be true aswell, but isn't the chance we are wrong much higher then her not knowing how strong her ability's are? the destruction of buildings also seems pretty consistent with 1.2k tnt though..



I fully support 1.2 ton durability for Bleach 

All the calcs are wrong


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## DarkTorrent (May 28, 2014)

and I fully support disregarding that statement as non-legit

if we disregard any other statement made by Kubo as well


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## LazyWaka (May 28, 2014)

Of course we're going to disregard it. We've always gone "lol author" when statements were blatantly off from showings.


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## LazyWaka (May 28, 2014)

Of course that doesn't mean we cant get some laughs out of bleach's "only 5 gig joules" like many people did with Naruto's "only 5 seconds." And unlike the latter, the former probably wont be usable in any useful way.


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## Black Leg Sanji (May 28, 2014)

So Clorox got its own Spiderman vs Firelord moment now


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## Gunstarvillain (Jun 3, 2014)

Fragor to the face


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## Byrd (Jun 3, 2014)

Only for Him to reform


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## FrozenFeathers (Jun 3, 2014)

Fragor ftw.


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## Ashi (Jun 3, 2014)

Fragor oneshots no diff


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## Aphelion (Jun 3, 2014)

Byrd said:


> Only for *Him* to reform


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## Catalyst75 (Jun 5, 2014)

So, how much does this match-up change with the recent speed increase for Bleach high and top-tiers?


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## Regicide (Jun 5, 2014)

A consensus wasn't even reached on that.

And even if there was one, nothing changes, because speed was never the issue. Neither of them have the destructive power to take out the other.


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## B Rabbit (Jun 5, 2014)

Even if it wasn't I'm sure its not big enough to overcome the meteor feat.


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## Aphelion (Jun 5, 2014)

Regicide said:


> A consensus wasn't even reached on that.


The majority seemed to agree with it.  The few detractors that bothered to debate weren't able to raise any good points.


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## Chad (Jun 5, 2014)

If the recent Ichigo lolMultiplier is legit, then that would open the door for a classic Bala discussion.


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## Iwandesu (Jun 5, 2014)

Astral said:


> If the recent Ichigo lolMultiplier is legit, then that would open the door for a classic Bala discussion.


We really should be done with the bala thing. (Is too iffy)
Has ichigo received any multiplier?


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## ∞Eternity∞ (Jun 5, 2014)

Ichigo multiplier ?!?!?!?!


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## PlotHax (Jun 5, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> The majority seemed to agree with it.  The few detractors that bothered to debate weren't able to raise any good points.



Majority didn't agree with it. Most said nope or didn't care.


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## Aphelion (Jun 5, 2014)

PlotHax said:


> Majority didn't agree with it. Most said nope or didn't care.



Most of the disagreement came at the beginning of the blog.  All the issues that were brought up(calc stacking, the stairs and normal shunpo) have been addressed and debunked.

Oh and in case you didn't see it, Taco responded to you and apparently he agrees with the calc as well.


----------



## Lurko (Jun 5, 2014)

Yay! Bleach got a speed upgrade!


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## Regicide (Jun 5, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Yay! Bleach got a speed upgrade!


Kind of premature to be saying this.


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## Lurko (Jun 5, 2014)

Regicide said:


> Kind of premature to be saying this.



From what I've seen in this thread,  everyone seems to be ok with it besides you.


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## Regicide (Jun 5, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> From what I've seen in this thread,  everyone seems to be ok with it besides you.


That's pretty fucking laughable considering I supported the damn feat, now and when it came up in the past.

I'm just saying it was contested and that there wasn't a clear consensus.


----------



## PlotHax (Jun 5, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> Most of the disagreement came at the beginning of the blog.  All the issues that were brought up(calc stacking, the stairs and normal shunpo) have been addressed and debunked.
> 
> Oh and in case you didn't see it, Taco responded to you and apparently he agrees with the calc as well.



He didn't look very convinced.

Just to clarify, we are talking about the 14* multiplier and not the mach 500 on the blog right?


----------



## Byrd (Jun 5, 2014)

ignore him Regi


----------



## Lurko (Jun 5, 2014)

Regicide said:


> That's pretty fucking laughable considering I supported the damn feat, now and when it came up in the past.
> 
> I'm just saying it was contested and that there wasn't a clear consensus.



Can I get a link to the calc?


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## Regicide (Jun 5, 2014)

The blogs have a search function, shitty as it may be, for a reason.


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## Aphelion (Jun 5, 2014)

PlotHax said:


> He didn't look very convinced.


"I've already agreed to the calc" is pretty clear cut.



> Just to clarify, we are talking about the 14* multiplier and not the mach 500 on the blog right?


The one he agreed on was the one using the mach 29 value, I think.

As to whether mach 14 or mach 29 gets used, I'm not sure.  I personally don't have a huge issue with using two multipliers on the same calc, but others probably think differently.


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## Lurko (Jun 5, 2014)

My phone is acting stupid so when I try to search it goes to the url search Instead.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jun 5, 2014)

TheEndAll said:


> "I've already agreed to the calc" is pretty clear cut.
> 
> 
> The one he agreed on was the one using the mach 29 value, I think.
> ...


I'm okay with it. 
With this logic, even dbz LE will be at 11c , though.


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