# Disney or Miyazaki?



## Stunna (Jun 13, 2011)

Which do you prefer, Disney's animated films or Hayao Miyazaki's?

Primarily Renaissance Disney, but whatever. Based off of what I've seen, I've got to say I prefer Disney, if only for nostalgia.


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jun 13, 2011)

Miyazaki for life! pek


----------



## Damaris (Jun 13, 2011)

why in the world would you pick? both, please.


----------



## The World (Jun 13, 2011)

I pick both because I think they are both too good to pick just one.

Besides Miyazaki is basically the Japanese Walt Disney anyway.


----------



## Darth (Jun 13, 2011)

Miyazaki by far.

Well, okay. Maybe not "by far". Disney did well with Aladdin, Hercules, Tarzan, and Mulan, but I still thoroughly enjoy Miyazaki's works more. "Howl's Moving Castle" honestly blows away all of Disney.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jun 13, 2011)

disney because i'm alot more familiar with it.


----------



## Stunna (Jun 13, 2011)

Darth said:


> Miyazaki by far.
> 
> Well, okay. Maybe not "by far". Disney did well with Aladdin, Hercules, Tarzan, and Mulan, but I still thoroughly enjoy Miyazaki's works more. "Howl's Moving Castle" honestly blows away all of Disney.



I need to re-watch Howl's Moving Castle then, cause I don't see it.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jun 13, 2011)

Nothing is greater than Disney. _Nothing._


----------



## Ennoea (Jun 13, 2011)

You mean Ghibli vs Disney right? It's hard since I grew up with Disney, but judging solely on the last 20 years, I'd say Ghibli by a small margin.


----------



## Stunna (Jun 13, 2011)

Well primarily Miyazaki's works, but you can include all of Ghibli as well.


----------



## blackbird (Jun 13, 2011)

Miyazaki. His (great) movies have a certain magical flair about them, that Disney never have nor will possess. 

That and his characters sing a lot less on-screen.


----------



## Stunna (Jun 13, 2011)

The implication that Disney's songs are annoying make your opinion null and void. And no magic?

trolololol


----------



## Samavarti (Jun 13, 2011)

I like Miyazaki movies more, they have a more imaginative setting and more interesting storys, and the chararecter are better developed, Disney have some great movies like like aladdin, The Nightmare Before Christmas or Up, that would rivalize with some Miyazaki movies, but his best movies like Spirited Away are just in another level.


----------



## Violent by Design (Jun 13, 2011)

To my recollection I've only seen two of Miyazaki's movies in completion (Spirited Away and Princess Monokee) but his other films all have very high reception. If the movie adaption of Nausica? of the Valley of the Wind is anything like the manga, then that's another classic for sure.

Really though, just based on the two films I've seen, Miyazaki's movies absolutely *blow* Disney's animated movies out the water. They have a ton more depth, are visually more appealing, are infinitely more unique and original and just have much better vibes. 

To be frank, a lot of Disney movies while heart warming and funny are very unmotivated like films. The stories often take no risks and aren't really done exceptionally well beyond their premise (For instance, take the Lion King which is a pretty cliche story, its premise of the fact that they are animals is what really makes it memorable). Disney movies are cool because some of them are musicals, but other than that Spirited Away and Princess Monokee are better than any animated Disney movie I've ever seen.

If you had asked me a few years ago, I'd be more hesitant. But I've recently re-watched Spirited Away and Princess Monokee, as well as quite a few Disney movies (Beauty and the Beast, Fantasia, The Lion King, Pochahontas off the top of my head and I have Sleeping Beauty on my queue list).  I can say that Beauty and the Beast and The Lion King aren't as good as I remembered (the last time I saw them was when I was rather young), while the Japanese films might have been even better than the first time I've seen them.

Though I don't know if you took this into account Stunna, but "Disney" is very broad. It is a little unfair to compare one mans work to an entire studio (in less it was Walt Disney's work himself, in which Miyazaki's work is still better just not as impactful). If we're including Pixar, than Disney would win. But I am assuming we're leaving Pixar out, since they're their own studio.


----------



## Ennoea (Jun 13, 2011)

I can agree that Beauty and the Beast really wasn't half as good as I remembered it to be. Same with Mulan.


----------



## Stunna (Jun 13, 2011)

Their "enjoyablity" has remained constant for me, but I do agree that Miyazaki's work are of a higher quality than Disney's. However, I still prefer the latter's. I just find them more fun, really.


----------



## blackbird (Jun 13, 2011)

Stunna said:


> The implication that Disney's songs are annoying make your opinion null and void. And no magic?
> 
> trolololol



Songs serve no purpose other than selling soundtracks. While usually well-written, they're rarely interesting to watch.

By "magic", I don't mean shape-shifting genies, withering roses of life or baboons, who use fruit to tell the future. What I'm referring to, is the unique collaboration of story-telling, music and imagery - all of which are fueled by an unfathomable imagination, that is present in several works of Miyazaki. As a viewer, one can't help but be overwhelmed by the sheer amount of emotion conveyed in every frame in his movies. All of this doesn't just make the characters come alive - they become the viewers and the viewers become them, and we find ourselves feeling everything these characters feel, just in larger quantity.

That's magic.


----------



## Violent by Design (Jun 14, 2011)

Basically, I mean seriously characters in Disney movies are often very flat and one dimensional. Miyazaki can spark true emotion in his pictures. They are just so much more vibrant, they really have lives of their own. He's a master of fantasy. 

Not to mention I don't know of a bad Miyazaki movie, but there have been plenty of bad Disney animated movies. Especially the ones that came out in the late 90s and early 2000's, they were just bad and made no attempt at creating that Disney magic that they were known for.


----------



## Koi (Jun 14, 2011)

Miyazaki, I think, if you're pitting them against Disney.  (VBD summed it up rather nicely, so I'll just say that I generally agree with his answer.)  If you make me choose between Miyazaki and Pixar, then, well.. enter Sophie's choice.


----------



## Jena (Jun 14, 2011)

That's kind of an unequal comparison, IMO. 

Disney has produced 50 animated features. Studio Ghibli (which has produced movies w/o Miyazaki's direct involvement) has only produced 18 animated features [or 20 at most-the internet is predictably inconsistant about that data].

So, yeah, I'm going to go with Disney because they have more to choose from. Some Disney movies are crap though, but some Miyazaki ones aren't exactly my cup of tea either. It's too subjective to definitively pick one or the other.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 14, 2011)

Studio Ghibli.

If you were to ask me to choose between Studio Ghibli and PIXAR Animation Studios?

Good heck almighty, I just can't.


----------



## Ms. Jove (Jun 14, 2011)

Shaidar Haran said:


> Miyazaki for life! pek





Darth said:


> Miyazaki by far.





Azhra said:


> Miyazaki. His (great) movies have a certain magical flair about them, that Disney never have nor will possess.
> 
> That and his characters sing a lot less on-screen.





Violent By Design said:


> Really though, just based on the two films I've seen, Miyazaki's movies absolutely *blow* Disney's animated movies out the water.
> 
> To be frank, a lot of Disney movies while heart warming and funny are very unmotivated like films. The stories often take no risks and aren't really done exceptionally well beyond their premise (For instance, take the Lion King which is a pretty cliche story, its premise of the fact that they are animals is what really makes it memorable). Disney movies are cool because some of them are musicals, but other than that Spirited Away and Princess Monokee are better than any animated Disney movie I've ever seen.





Koi said:


> Miyazaki, I think


----------



## Kαrin (Jun 14, 2011)

Old Disney > Miyazaki

Miyazaki > New Disney


----------



## Narcissus (Jun 14, 2011)

Azhra said:


> Songs serve no purpose other than selling soundtracks. While usually well-written, they're rarely interesting to watch.



What a lot of nonsense.

Tell me, have you ever seen a Broadway musical? Songs are another form of story telling, and many times they work amazingly well with the story. You don't have to personally like it, but don't sit there and spout this ignorant rubbish.

Anyway, I'd rather not choose on this, becauseI enjoy both for different reason and both are amazing.


----------



## Jena (Jun 14, 2011)

Kαrin said:


> Old Disney > Miyazaki
> 
> Miyazaki > New Disney



What about Tangled?


----------



## Kαrin (Jun 14, 2011)

Jena said:


> What about Tangled?



I haven't watched that yet, but I'm planning to, very soon. But I doubt I will like it more than Miyazaki's movies.


----------



## Glued (Jun 14, 2011)

If you were going to comparre western animation to Eastern, you should have used Don Bluth or Ralph Bakshi, not Walt Disney.

Bakshi's American Pop and Don Bluth's Secret of NIMH rival Miyazaki. Though I must admit Bakshi's has made some bad stuff like Wizards and Don Bluth sold out with failtastic movies such as Penguin and the Pebble, Anastasia and Thumbelina.

Bakshi's American Pop shows 5 generations of a family making its way into the American music industry while at the same time chronicling events such as the Russian Progroms, World War I, Prohibition, the rise of the mafia, World War II, Hippies and finally the 80s.


----------



## Sine (Jun 14, 2011)

> The stories often take no risks and aren't really done exceptionally well beyond their premise (For instance, take the Lion King which is a pretty cliche story, its premise of the fact that they are animals is what really makes it memorable).


----------



## Jon Snow (Jun 14, 2011)

Lion King stomps.


----------



## The World (Jun 14, 2011)

Whoever said Lion King was bad, for shame.


----------



## Stunna (Jun 14, 2011)

You know, I _did_ say you could trim it down to just Renaissance Disney, or any specific era. Or did I forget that last part. My bad if that's the case.


----------



## Violent by Design (Jun 14, 2011)

Lion King isn't bad, but I wouldn't even have it in my top ten of animated films. There is nothing that is really blowing about it. Now that I'm in my 20s, the entire "I need to avenge my pops and become king) storyline isn't as mindblowing as when I was 6. If anything, the best part is the "I cant wait to be king" song, even if it does sound a lot like the song from Little Mermaid .

In fact, I should check out some more of Miyazaki's stuff. But yeah, the best Disney movie that I've seen is probably Beauty and the Beast, and it isn't as good as any of deez anime moviez.


----------



## Jon Snow (Jun 14, 2011)

God damn weaboos.. everywhere


----------



## Stunna (Jun 14, 2011)

Violent By Design said:


> "I cant wait to be king" song, even if it does sound a lot like the song from Little Mermaid .


You make that sound like a bad thing 



> the best Disney movie that I've seen is probably Beauty and the Beast, and it isn't as good as any of deez anime moviez.


Notre Dame > Beauty and the Beast


----------



## Parallax (Jun 14, 2011)

I like the Japanese films more because they're so much DEEPER and full of more CHARACTER


:|


----------



## Muk (Jun 14, 2011)

well i like the old disney movies but miyazaki's story telling is by far more compelling than that of disney

still i'll take both


----------



## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Jun 14, 2011)

As much as I don't like musicals in my animated movies (I blame you Don Bluth!), Renaissance Disney _usually_ knocked those fuckers out of the park. Animation was _always _nuanced as hell and as smooth as summer silk - making even Miyazki's smoothest scenes look a tier lower in comparison. 

Still though, Miyazaki's stories, characters and worlds are enough to put him in that place of preference within my heart above the Renaissance Disney stuff. Just feels more engaging, you know? 

When pitted against Pixar though, I feel way more conflicted.


----------



## iander (Jun 14, 2011)

Well, I thoroughly enjoy when political and social commentary is added to movies so its not surprising I prefer Miyazaki and ghibli films to Disney.


----------



## Jena (Jun 14, 2011)

Compelling interesting arguments in here. 

But...I'm sticking with the case-by-case basis argument. I can't simply say one is better than the other because-well, it's not. 

Ok, to interject, I _really_ need to know which we're talking about here. I'm assuming we're talking about Studio Ghibli, but are we just talking about _only_ Hayao Miyazaki movies? Because that _is_ different...he hasn't worked on every Studio Ghibli movie and Studio Ghibli wasn't even founded until 1985 so he worked on other movies with other studios before then. Not to mention that he also had a hand in some side projects like Little Nemo.

Anyway...there are some Studio Ghibli movies that I'm not very fond of either.
Case in point: Porco Rosso.


----------



## Violent by Design (Jun 14, 2011)

It's Disney Renaissance vs Miyazaki movies.


----------



## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jun 14, 2011)

Pixar and Ghibli ftw! Disney comes close


----------



## The Potential (Jun 14, 2011)

Haven't watched much Miyazaki.

Gota' give this one to Disney.


----------



## ArcticSiren (Jun 14, 2011)

How can you force me to make that decisions? 

This must be one of the hardest decisions of my life. >_>
Overall, the Miyazaki movies I have watched, I really LOVE. 

I love a lot of the classic disney movies, but not as much as I love the Miyazaki movies, but there are more of them to tip the scale.

So I cannot choose.


----------



## Jena (Jun 14, 2011)

Violent By Design said:


> It's Disney Renaissance vs Miyazaki movies.



Then wouldn't it make more sense to compare directors? 
Whatever.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 15, 2011)

Oh Hai marvel and pixar belonging both to disney


----------



## Violent by Design (Jun 15, 2011)

As if there has ever been a Marvel animated film worth a damn. Also, read the OP and shit.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 15, 2011)

Tales of Asgard was fun 

I read the OP. It says "this or whatever" I went with whatever
If the main matchup was a close call, pixar and marvel bulldoze through the line.
I could live without Miyazaki's movies. Sadly, but would live.
 I could not without Joss Whedon's Avengers


----------



## Parallax (Jun 15, 2011)

That's not even out :|

and it's been updated to be Renaissance Disney


----------



## Ziko (Jun 17, 2011)

This reminds me of an old wallpaper I made:


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 17, 2011)

Parallax said:


> That's not even out :|




I don't see your point


----------



## bachaa (Jun 17, 2011)

Both are great really a shame to pick one over the other., but I would have to say disney since I watched disney movies constantly while growing up. The symbolism in the movies is pretty interesting too.


----------



## Burke (Jun 18, 2011)

I like ponyo.
Whichever one was involved in ponyo, i like them best.


----------



## Narcissus (Jun 18, 2011)

I see what you did there.


----------



## Lord Yu (Jun 18, 2011)

I pick Miyazaki because he's not racist.


----------



## Taleran (Jun 18, 2011)

I will take the good of both over the bad of both.


----------



## Godot (Jun 18, 2011)

Quite a humorous match-up as Disney provides the english dubs of Miyazaki's films 

I'm going to have to go for Disney. I grew up with films like Lion Kings, Aladdin, Mulan, Little Mermaid etc. To me they are irreplaceable, and they all pretty much had a worldwide impact.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jun 18, 2011)

Add Pixar and we have a stomp on our hands


----------



## Succubus (Jun 18, 2011)

Kαrin said:


> Old Disney > Miyazaki
> 
> Miyazaki > New Disney



I agree with this

Old Disney > Miyazaki = Pixar > New Disney


----------



## Kyousuke (Jun 18, 2011)

Miyazaki just has more _depth_ in his films that make them stand out to me. I don't think that could as easily be compared with Renaissance Disney. 

I love them both really, having grown up around Disney, but I hold firm that Miyazaki (generally) is my preference. 

The argument if this were Pixar would be different.


----------



## Sen (Jun 20, 2011)

I love both of them overall, but I'd probably say Miyazaki.  Mostly since I think that they send better messages than Disney since Disney typically has a lot of racist/sexist/etc undertones in some films if you look at content analysis studies (such as how good characters typically sound very American and the bad characters have noticeable accents) or even just looked at the obvious such as in the Lion King in which all the "bad lions" are almost always black-haired (obviously excluding Kova, although he was bad for part of the second film) or even darker skinned in the 2nd movie (until they joined the good side lol).  Although despite these flaws, I probably like The Lion King more than any Miyazaki film because of the great songs, amazing animation, and since I love lions   However, I really like the anti-war and pro-environment messages that are often in Miyazaki films and I think that they are more creative/unique.  

Both have amazing animation though and are really entertaining.


----------



## Mider T (Jun 20, 2011)

How can you even compare?  Disney is the father of modern cartoons, both Tezuka and Miyazaki cited him as a huge inspiration.


----------



## Samavarti (Jun 20, 2011)

Mider T said:


> How can you even compare?  Disney is the father of modern cartoons, both Tezuka and Miyazaki cited him as a huge inspiration.



Which means that disney have been more influential, not better.

Also, the director Pete Docter (Monsters Inc, Up) and  the animator Glen Keane (Aladdin, The Little Mermaid, Tangled etc.) have called Miyazaki a huge influence for them.

And i don't remember Miyazaki ever calling Disney a influence for his movies, most of the famous Disney works are subsequent to the work of Miyazak.i


----------



## Sine (Jun 20, 2011)

Sen said:
			
		

> racist undertones





> such as in the Lion King in which all the "bad lions" are almost always black-haired


----------



## Ziko (Jun 20, 2011)

Sen said:


> ..such as in the Lion King in which all the "bad lions" are almost always black-haired



Oh my god.. You can't be freaking serious..


----------



## DracoStorm (Jun 20, 2011)

Disney just makes fairy tails, while Miyazaki makes a lot of different stuff with actual depth to it, I mean, when Disney was making Beauty and the Beast and Little  Mermaid, Miyazaki made Nausica?... when Disney as making Goofy Movie, Miyazaki made Princess Mononoke... nuff said.  Miyazaki wins easily.


----------



## Lee-Sensei (Jun 20, 2011)

Lion King had one of the most touching scenes that I've ever seen in animation. However, Spirited Away was just amazing with the animation and characterization so it's hard to say.



> ..such as in the Lion King in which all the "bad lions" are almost always black-haired



Oh please! If your going to claim their racist at least come up with a stronger arguement then that, because I don't see racism in that movie.


----------



## Gnome (Jun 20, 2011)

I prefer Miyazaki. I've never been a big fan of Disney and I wasn't raised on them either.


----------



## Sen (Jun 20, 2011)

Well since it seems people assume that I am basing my accusations of racism as solely based on my own opinions, I shall respond with some research to back me up 

Although I’m surprised that people deny that that there is racism and sexism in Disney movies, I suppose that that I’m overexposed to people that do look at it that way since I’m a sociology major so most of my classes have a heavy emphasis on media analysis.  

Sadly, it's probably true of most Americans (and others) don’t really analyze the media that they consume, which is really what most people that create media would probably prefer since they can help enforce the status quo and “Traditional American values” without people questioning it.  But there is almost always some kind of message being sent in media (even if it's unconsciously), so I seriously urge you all to look at things with a more critical eye and don't let yourself remain ignorant of how the media influences society (which it does in major ways in all aspects of life).

Anyway, some of the research: 
"Racially coded language is also evident in The Lion King where all of the members of the royal family speak with posh British accents while Shenzi and Banzai, the despicable hyena storm troopers speak through the voices of Whoopi Goldberg and Cheech Marin in racially coded accents that take on the nuances of the discourse of a decidedly urban, black and Latino youth...What is astonishing in these filmsis that they produce a host of representations and codes in which children are taught that cultural differences that do not bear the imprint of white, middle-class ethnicity are deviant, inferior, unintelligent, and a threat to be overcome. The racism in these films is defined by both the presence of racist representations and the absence of complex representations of African-Americans and other people of color. At the same time, whiteness is universalized through the privileged representation of middle class social relations, values, and linguistic practices. Moreover, the representational rendering of history, progress, and Western culture bears a colonial legacy that seems perfectly captured by Edward Said's notion of orientalism and its dependency on new images of centrality and sanctioned narratives. Cultural differences in Disney's recent films are expressed through a "naturalized" racial hierarchy, one that is antithetical to an viable democratic society. There is nothing innocent in what kids learn about race as portrayed in the "magical world"of Disney.”
List of my top ten.
The article also talks about gender subordination (which tbh I had not looked at myself, so definitely an interesting read for others who enjoy sociology and content analysis!)

This article  echoes the point about the hyenas (In The Lion King, the hyenas clearly speak in a kind of street, inner city African American dialect. They are considered the bad guys.)

Another article () that *lists several examples *(p5-6 specifically about racism, it discusses sexism too) is here, I’d copypaste for the lazy people (who tbh I don’t really think will read all of the links that I’m providing ) but it won’t let me in a normal way since the words don’t appear in paragraph format and I’m not going to rewrite all of it. 

Here is an actual *study* (those are the best to look at of course since you can see how people did their research and that is vital in determining if you believe the conclusions- the methods are on page 8):  It examined 26 Disney films, including The Lion King, and found that (conclusions based on race and culture, p.19): “Race and culture. Disney films also were replete with negative and stereotypic images of marginalized racial groups. Characters of color were portrayed as villainous or scary in many movies. The crows in Dumbo and the apes in Jungle appear to be based on racist notions of African Americans. In Jungle, the apes sing with African American voices to a Caucasian boy, “I want to be a man. I want to walk like you, talk like you. I want to be like you.” The Media Education Foundation(2001) argued that these lyrics indicate that Blacks and Whites are not equal, and that Blacks want to be like Whites. Even 40 years after the production of Jungle, Lion’s portrayal of the hyenas mimics stereotypes of inner-city minorities; they are portrayed as sinister and thieving, and they often complain that the lions maintain the power in their society. Tarzan, a film produced in 1999, makes strides in its portrayal of a male character who has an emotional life; however, this film also contains racist overtones. Tarzan, a White man, is shown in control of African jungles, without even one portrayal of a Black character.”

This study is really awesome too, they explained their methods nicely and it’s pretty recent as well, plus they also include gender and LGBTQ  individuals.  This study also discusses some positives so it’s not all bad either!  (Despite what my post might seem like )

If you want more articles, you can go to scholarly databases (google scholar, jstor, etc) and look them up yourself, there are many articles that have done content analysis on Disney.  Also if you can't open these articles (I live on a college campus so often I can access things for free that may not be available to other people since my school pays for access to scholarly databases), then PM me and I'll send you whichever you'd like :3

That being said, you can always interpret media how you like, but I think it’s extremely important that people are active consumers that really think about what they are watching and what messages it sends to us (specifically what values are being transmitted?  Since just by certain people creating a TV show, like Americans, it will take on those values that people were raised with). 

I’m not saying that Miyazaki’s works are value-free either (obviously in Howl’s Moving Castle, the anti-war sentiments are very clear and I’m sure there could easily be some negative values potentially portrayed in his works, but I haven’t really studied those myself.  I also do not know much about Japanese culture, at least not enough to really be able to really do a content analysis myself since I could easily miss a lot of things).


----------



## Fourangers (Jun 21, 2011)

Wow, if any of those are true, you just turned my world upside down.  MY CHILDHOOD~~~~~~~~NOOOOOOOOOOOOO


----------



## Kαrin (Jun 21, 2011)

This is what I hate about talking about Disney nowdays, it always turns out talking about rasicm. 

Old Disney did have extreme racist tones in them (propaganda cartoons, Dumbo, then that deleted scene from Fantasia), but The Lion King + 90's Disney... really?...


----------



## Sen (Jun 21, 2011)

I apologize for the thread derailment in some ways, but I feel strongly about these things   I just have difficulty not responding to some things if I notice them 

On that note this will be my last post here (since I think internet-arguing tends to waste time and rarely has a positive effect), but if someone does want to debate further they can PM me  



Fourangers said:


> [noparse] Wow, if any of those are true, you just turned my world upside down.  MY CHILDHOOD~~~~~~~~NOOOOOOOOOOOOO[/noparse]



I know what you mean   Although it's not like Disney is all bad and it's not like you can't enjoy it, The Lion King is still one of my favorite movies.  I just think it's important to look at media critically and research that has been done on the topic. 



Kαrin said:


> This is what I hate about talking about Disney nowdays, it always turns out talking about rasicm.
> 
> Old Disney did have extreme racist tones in them (propaganda cartoons, Dumbo, then that deleted scene from Fantasia), but The Lion King + 90's Disney... really?...



Well it's not _just_ Disney or anything. It's just very studied since Disney is a huge empire.  I'm taking a Sociology of Sport class and sports media still has quite a bit of prejudice against women and minority groups present, as well as other issues (such as focusing on personal, superficial stories instead of looking at the social structure beyond things.)

Well if you read the research studies that I linked (and others, plenty of results if you search for content analysis of Disney), there is definitely some empirical evidence of prejudice.  If you want to deny that racism exists in 90s+ Disney, then it would be more convincing if you used some research to back you up instead of simply saying "...really?... " as though it's ridiculous which it really isn't if you look at statistics in general in America and how certain groups are still disadvantaged. 

Also you say that like the 90s were an enlightened time, the Rodney King incident happened in 1991 iirc and there are plenty of other examples of prejudice in our society today (just take one look at our prison system, especially how the "war on drugs" disproportionally puts and keeps blacks in prison).

I apologize if I come off as mean/arrogant/etc, but it just drives me crazy when people ignore prejudice in society since that is one thing that allows it to persist.  And the research and stats heavily show that there is still a lot of problems in American society.  (I'm sure we are not the only country with problems, but I have only studied America to the extent where I feel that I can discuss it quite a bit).  The media that we create reflects our society and values after all.

Anyway, as I said before as well, you can still enjoy Disney and it's still fun to watch.  I just think you should know the messages that are being present and be critical of them.


----------



## scipioafricanus (Jun 23, 2011)

If we are talking solely about animations then it will have to be disney hands down.

The animation in beauty and the beast is nothing but pheonominal. I have seen several movies from studio Ghibli such as tale of earth sea, lupan the third, nausica of the valley of the wind, princess mononoki etc, yes they all had fantastic storylines but in terms of animation i think Disney takes it.

Early disney movies were animated with more frames, the animation is also more fluid than that of Studio Ghibli. The characters were also drawn with more detial. The best example of this is beauty and the best and also the first lion king. Those two movies were disney at it's best.
I dont know about now though since disney mostly does cgi movies.


----------



## DanE (Jun 23, 2011)

I do agree with old Disney being better, I don't know if its the nostalgia but I doubt it, the animations where so inferior back then the you had to focus on the characters and story to make it a good movie, also there was such a huge amount of content to be exploited because back then that was the new thing, much better than today.


----------



## Glued (Jun 23, 2011)

DracoStorm said:


> *Disney just makes fairy tails*



[YOUTUBE]3p7M9CCmmPw[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]-eHr-9_6hCg[/YOUTUBE]

Kenai confesses to Koda that he murdered Koda's mom.
[YOUTUBE]cyZOJw8rJg4[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]qwnh-sxaBwk[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Furious George (Jun 23, 2011)

Its really hard to choose and I personally refuse to do so. 


And why would this thread NOT have a poll?! Even if the OP neglected to do it a mod should have had the sense to add it by now! 

*slams fist on desk and storms off in a rage*


----------



## Chidori Mistress (Jun 23, 2011)

Sen said:


> Anyway, some of the research:
> "Racially coded language is also evident *in The Lion King where all of the members of the royal family speak with posh British accents* while Shenzi and Banzai, the despicable hyena storm troopers speak through the voices of Whoopi Goldberg and Cheech Marin in racially coded accents that take on the nuances of the discourse of a decidedly urban, black and Latino youth...


Pardon? That's rubbish. 
The only member of the royal family with a british accent was Scar. The goddamn villain and he was one of the 'dark haired lions' that you were yapping about. Then there was Zazu....
If anything many of the villains in disney movies have a british accent. 


> This article  echoes the point about the hyenas (In The Lion King, the hyenas clearly speak in a kind of street, inner city African American dialect. They are considered the bad guys.)


Only Shenzi who was voiced by an african american as you know. 
Banzai didn't have an african american dialect at all and Ed didn't even bloody speak. 



> Characters of color were portrayed as villainous or scary in many movies. The crows in Dumbo and the apes in Jungle appear to be based on racist notions of African Americans.


The crows get brought up all the time in this topic and I can see why, not sure about the apes...


> In Jungle, the apes sing with African American voices to a Caucasian boy, ?I want to be a man. I want to walk like you, talk like you. I want to be like you.? The Media Education Foundation(2001) argued that these lyrics indicate that Blacks and Whites are not equal, and that Blacks want to be like Whites.


Interesting, considering Mowgli wasn't white.

Yes there are racist things in some of the disney works but some of the things people mention seem ridiculous.

Anyway to be on topic, this is a difficult question but i'd go with Disney until I rewatch/watch more of Miyazaki's films.


----------



## Jena (Jun 23, 2011)

I'm not going to get into this racist argument, because we're just going to go whirling around in circles, but I _had_ to address this point:



> Tarzan, a film produced in 1999, makes strides in its portrayal of a male character who has an emotional life; however, this film also contains racist overtones. Tarzan, a White man, is shown in control of African jungles, without even one portrayal of a Black character.”


The Disney film Tarzan is based on the book by Edgar Rice Burroughs, in which the character is _written_ as being a white male. It's not like Disney went in and decided they were going to make him white for the lolz. 

And I'm going to assume there were no black characters because it _takes place in the middle of the freakin' jungle_. Any of the natives with half a brain stem would not be waltzing around in there. And if you're going to criticize Disney, you should be turning your sights to the original books instead which are rampant with racism and sexism. Which brings about another point: if Disney had included the black characters that are in the books, they'd get their asses sued off. They're depicted as brute savages. 

Jesus.


----------



## Glued (Jun 23, 2011)

"Oh I come from a land from a faraway place
Where the Caravan camels roam
Where they cut off your ear if they don't like your face
Its barbaric, but hey its home."

Remind you guys of anything.


----------



## Kαrin (Jun 24, 2011)

Ben Grimm said:


> "Oh I come from a land from a faraway place
> Where the Caravan camels roam
> *Where they cut off your ear if they don't like your face
> Its barbaric, but hey its home."*
> ...



In finnish version that part goes; _The ears of the strangers will always be cut off, it creates a cozy atmosphere_

They re-dubbed this song in DVD version, which sucked for me, since the original will always be the real one to me. That part didn't, and still doesn't bother me at all.


----------



## Avix (Jun 24, 2011)

Tough call between Renaissence Disney and Hayao Miyazaki - but Miyazaki just wins a bit more because Disney is a pile of shit these days.


----------



## Narcissus (Jun 24, 2011)

There are some racist themes in Disney, but I always felt that some people exaggerated it though, causing them to look for some things that just aren't there. 

As for the two, while Miyazaki's films do tend to have more depth, Disney's ccharacters tend to have a certain, really appealing charm to them that makes up for it. And it's not like their stories are bad anyway. So I find that the two being compared here are on pretty even terms with each other.


scipioafricanus said:


> I have seen several movies from studio Ghibli such as *tale of earth sea*, lupan the third, nausica of the valley of the wind, princess mononoki etc



I had to comment here. Studio Ghibli could've done so much better with Earthsea, but instead they chose to utterly butcher Ursula Le Guinn's series. Not nearly as badly as Sci Fi/Syfy Channel did, but they really should've stuck to the source material.


Furious George said:


> And why would this thread NOT have a poll?! Even if the OP neglected to do it a mod should have had the sense to add it by now!
> 
> *slams fist on desk and storms off in a rage*



I always considered polls to be a kind of tool that takes away from the discussion value of a thread. They really don't add to either side.


Ben Grimm said:


> "Oh I come from a land from a faraway place
> Where the Caravan camels roam
> Where they cut off your ear if they don't like your face
> Its barbaric, but hey its home."
> ...





I always loved the part about the black fish from Under the Sea in The Little Mermaid. 


Kαrin said:


> In finnish version that part goes; _The ears of the strangers will always be cut off, it creates a cozy atmosphere_



I know it's wrong, but I found this hilarious.


Avix said:


> Tough call between Renaissence Disney and Hayao Miyazaki - but Miyazaki just wins a bit more because Disney is a pile of shit these days.



Disney was crappy for a while, excluding Pixar. But they've bounced back a bit recently with The Princess and the Frog and Tangled, which are both good movies.


----------



## Melanie Skye (Jun 24, 2011)

I actually really like both. I don't think I could choose.


----------



## Noda. B (Jun 25, 2011)

Personally I grew up with both and I have to say even as a child I prefered Miyazaki a lot more. Not to say I didn't love a lot of the Disney films but there was something about Miyazaki films that always seemed to stay in my memory a lot more, even with my short attention span as a child.


----------



## The World (Jun 25, 2011)

People having doubts on Disney? 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyS3weMlxLA[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Narcissus (Jun 25, 2011)

It's not often that I agree with The World, but Hunchback was an amazing step for Disney. They really did leave their comfort zone when they did that movie, and it turned out extremely well.


----------



## Kαrin (Jun 25, 2011)

The Hunchback of Notre Dame is one of my favorite Disney movies. They did make it more kid friendly, since original story was really dark, but even the Disney movie was pretty dark. I didn't understand the theme when I was a kid, but now that I'm older, I see pure art.


----------



## angieness (Jun 25, 2011)

I love both and would never choose between them because I love animation. While both are great I do have to say their recent efforts have been lackluster. Although I've heard the Frog Princess and Tangled were very good, I haven't seen either. Ponyo was pretty good but I've felt like that things haven't been as good with Miyazaki ever since Howl's Moving Castle. (or Ghibli for that matter, Earthsea was kind of a mess. To be fair it was his son's first movie.) 

Pixar has been beating both lately, provided Pixar is now Disney, I still consider them their own entity. (not including Cars 2) Which is a shame since I prefer 2D animation over CGI but a good film is a good film, regardless of format. It's unfortunate Don Bluth seems to have stopped making movies and never managed to top Secret of NIMH which was a masterpiece.


----------



## Rukia (Jun 25, 2011)

Miyazaki.  In fact, I bought a ticket to see Howl's Moving Castle next week.  I've obviously seen the film before... but not at the theater.  When I saw they were showing it... I couldn't resist.


----------



## Solrac (Jun 28, 2011)

Miyazaki is full of WIN, no doubt, but it just doesn't compare to the absolute awesomeness of Disney... especially classic Disney! 

but yeah both miyazaki and disney are two of the biggest things in this world that i definitely cannot live without, not even for a minute.


----------



## Narcissus (Jun 28, 2011)

Rukia said:


> Miyazaki.  In fact, I bought a ticket to see Howl's Moving Castle next week.  I've obviously seen the film before... but not at the theater.  When I saw they were showing it... I couldn't resist.



Interestingly enough, I'm considering see The Lion King when they re-release it to Theaters, even though they are only doing it as a gimmick. But I was too young to remember seeing it in theaters, so I might ignore that and see it anyway.


----------



## Jena (Jun 28, 2011)

^Wait, what's this now about Lion King?
They're not releasing it in 3-D, are they?


----------



## Narcissus (Jun 28, 2011)

Jena said:


> ^Wait, what's this now about Lion King?
> They're not releasing it in 3-D, are they?





[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCKCSBpfL0M[/YOUTUBE]​


----------



## Jena (Jun 28, 2011)




----------



## Kαrin (Jun 28, 2011)

Narcissus said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCKCSBpfL0M[/YOUTUBE]​





3D is so overrated.


----------



## Stunna (Jun 28, 2011)

It's freaking Lion King. The least they could do is re-release it theatrically with a 2D option.


----------



## Tsukiyo (Jun 29, 2011)

in newer to Miyazaki's films but there is something about them that is just amazing. Maybe its that its mostly all handrawn, but the art work is so fantastic and the stories are amazing, and can be pretty deep as well. 

although i love disney as well


----------



## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 1, 2011)

Hmm... I wonder who I prefer...


----------

