# Shisui compared to Itachi(KL vs BD)



## JuicyG (Dec 12, 2014)

Shisui in my opinion would have been stronger and more dangerous than Itach had he lived on with both eyes even compared to Itachi with MS while """Healthy""". 

Shisui was portrayed as a character above Itachi in many senses in both anime & manga.

What is your talk on this....?​


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## Bonly (Dec 12, 2014)

Didn't you make a thread like this before? I feel like you've made a thread like this before, oh well. Had he lived he would've been more dangerous when his eyes weren't on cool down due to Koto(well assuming he didn't go blind) but otherwise hard to say. We barely know his level besides knowing he was above the rest of the fodder Uchiha and Pre MS Itachi but that's about it. We don't know what his growth would have been like, we don't know how much he would've used his MS jutsu thus not knowing how quickly he would go blind, we don't know how high his chakra levels would have been, we don't know what other jutsu he could have learned and what not, ect. so no way to tell really. 

If I had to take a shot in the dark I'd say they would both be around the same general area or Itachi being slightly stronger due to Kishi's hard on for him but hard to say.

Edit: Yeah I thought so


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## Trojan (Dec 12, 2014)

He's already superior to itachi to begin with. 
Shisui is the most powerful Genjutsu user in the uchiha clan, and yes, that includes itachi. Itachi's Genjutsu tricks
are not going to work against him. In addition to that, he can summon crows, and apparently he's the one who taught itachi that anyway.  





> In order to use multiple jutsu, he was keeping multiple birds. Primarily loyal/devoted, they were Shisui’s important/valuable partners.
> 
> 
> Uchiha Shisui
> ...



In addition to that, hype suggest that he's also faster than itachi since he's known for his shunshin speed. He does not seem to have any sickness either. In top of all of that,  he has his own Susanoo as kishi himself design it.

In term of elements he, as in his profile shown above, has Fire, wind, and lightning. Which is better than itachi with the same thing except water instead of lightning. However, itachi has Yin, unlike Shisui, so I guess we can say itachi overall is slightly better in this regard. 


So, overall from the information we have I believe Shisui is stronger than itachi, the only thing there is to it is
we have actually never seen Shisui in a fight.


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## JuicyG (Dec 12, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Didn't you make a thread like this before? I feel like you've made a thread like this before, oh well. Had he lived he would've been more dangerous when his eyes weren't on cool down due to Koto(well assuming he didn't go blind) but otherwise hard to say. We barely know his level besides knowing he was above the rest of the fodder Uchiha and Pre MS Itachi but that's about it. We don't know what his growth would have been like, we don't know how much he would've used his MS jutsu thus not knowing how quickly he would go blind, we don't know how high his chakra levels would have been, we don't know what other jutsu he could have learned and what not, ect. so no way to tell really.
> 
> If I had to take a shot in the dark I'd say they would both be around the same general area or Itachi being slightly stronger due to Kishi's hard on for him but hard to say.
> 
> Edit: Yeah I thought so




I came in the house drunk last night... thought I was being cool and made a thread


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## Sadgoob (Dec 12, 2014)

Itachi was considered capable and suspected of killing Shisui when he was 13 years old, by ninja who knew both of them. And in the anime, Shisui was "one match" better than kid Itachi. 

Itachi had defeated Orochimaru two years prior and was working under cover in Akatsuki for Hiruzen, so that's not exactly putting Shisui down by any means. Shisui was still a top tier force.

In any case, it's practically certain that by the time Itachi reached his peak skill several years later, he would have a definite edge over Shisui in skill. Itach's growth was undeniably steeper.

Juicy, _nobody_ is more skilled than Itachi. Others have attained or were given special chakra or abilities, but nobody in the manga developed basic skill faster or more efficiently than Itachi.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 12, 2014)

Yeah Shisui can oneshot anyone bar Rikoodu & his family.


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## Garcher (Dec 12, 2014)

Itachi solos so much

shisui has no chance against him, Kishi is under Itachi's genjutsu


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## Nikushimi (Dec 12, 2014)

Shisui was probably roughly comparable to MS Sasuke and living Itachi, Minus Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, as well as Izanami maybe; instead, he had Kotoamatsukami in each eye, which he could only use every 10 years apiece.

Itachi had more options that he could use more frequently. But talking about "level" and "portrayal"...naw, there isn't really a clear-cut difference.

I wouldn't say Koto is an absolute game over; Itachi has knowledge of the Jutsu and he's a master at clone feints.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 12, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Juicy, _nobody_ is more skilled than Itachi. Others have attained or were given special chakra or abilities, but nobody in the manga developed basic skill faster or more efficiently than Itachi. [/indent]



The biggest BULLSHIT ever said. Special chakra or abilities? What the fuck do you call sharingan and MS?

HATAKE KAKASHI. The man who was a goddamn Jounin (canon second only to hokage) at 13 years old. The man who was a genin at 5, Itachi at 7. Chunin at 6, Itachi at 9 (after he unlocked sharingan). The man who learned rasengan, which Tsunade said only Jiraiya and Minato could learn. The man who created chidori. The man who had weightless Rock Lee speed. The man who could sense at 13. Kakashi fucking shits on Itachi in "basic skill" both faster and more efficiently. He fucking unlocked MS in a year despite being a non Uchiha, it took Itachi 5 years. He fucking developed Chidori and learned rasengan. 

So lets set some shit straight-

13 year old Kakashi-
Learned rasengan
Created chidori
Had weightless rock Lee speed
Sensor
MS despite being non Uchiha
Jounin
Genin at 5, Chunin at 6.

13 year old Itachi
CANON Itachi only got chunnin at a young age (9) because, as his mom put it, was a different time in the village. 
Could throw kunai.
Not a sensor even as a grown ass man.
ANBU only because Hiruzen wanted to bridge the gap between the village and Uchiha.
Couldn't kill Shisui.
Unlocked MS.

Kakashi is and was fucking leagues above punk ass Itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 12, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> The biggest BULLSHIT ever said. Special chakra or abilities? What the fuck do you call sharingan and MS?



Obviously, I'm not including the MS abilities when I say Itachi is the most intelligent and skilled ninja to ever live.​


IchLiebe said:


> HATAKE KAKASHI. The man who was a goddamn Jounin (canon second only to hokage) at 13 years old.



26-year-old Kakashi was left trembling from Orochimaru's killing intent. 11-year-old Itachi humiliated Orochimaru with basic genjutsu.​


IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi fucking shits on Itachi in "basic skill"



The databook shows this to be patently untrue. Itachi at 17 was significantly more skilled/proficient than 26-year-old Kakashi.

*26-year-old Kakashi's knowledge/proficiency*

Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 4
Genjutsu: 4
Intelligence: 4.5
Speed: 4
Strength: 3.5
Stamina: *3*
Seals: 5 

*21-year-old (sick) Itachi's knowledge/proficiency*

Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: *4.5*
Genjutsu: *5*
Intelligence: *5*
Speed: *5*
Strength: 3.5
Stamina: 2.5
Seals: *5*

Even when Kakashi has an extra five years of training, and Itachi is eaten up by disease, the difference in skill remains.​


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## Trojan (Dec 12, 2014)

Kakashi is a sensor? 

as for the Rassengan although we know he has it, but we don't know when did he learn it.


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## Sans (Dec 12, 2014)

On top of what Strategos stated, I would like to point out how they interacted with Danzou.

Danzou ripped out one of Shishui's eyes.

Itachi infiltrated Danzou and dictated to him how several things would go.

Overall we don't know much about Shishui, but we can obviously place him as powerful. When compared to Itachi, who has far greater narrative importance and several comparisons that favour him, it seems dubious to assume Shishui surpasses Itachi.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 13, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Obviously, I'm not including the MS abilities when I say Itachi is the most intelligent and skilled ninja to ever live.​



It's not obvious. He is not the most intelligent, Madara fucking shits on him. Kakashi fucking knew the bykugan and sharingan was related (people on the forums made fun of that a few years back), knew about the gates, SoT6P, Senjutsu, medical ninjutsu, knew when pain entered the village that there was 2 team (distraction team, and intel team) and instantly picked the out the intel team. Kakashi's knowledge of the world is vastly superior to Itachi. 

Skills

Kakashi-
5 affinities per the fucking databook.
Sensor.
Yin and Yang chakra.
Genjutsu
8th Gates user
Summonings
Sealing jutsu
S/T jutsu
Tracking Ninja

Itachi-
3 Affinities
Yin and Yang chakra
Genjutsu
Sealing Jutsu
Summoning

Kakashi is leagues more skilled.



> 26-year-old Kakashi was left trembling from Orochimaru's killing intent. 11-year-old Itachi humiliated Orochimaru with basic genjutsu.​



And? Kakashi was a fucking legend at 13 famous for sharingan. Itachi was a legend because Obito fucking killed the Uchiha clan. Itachi was more confident, that doesn't mean more skilled. Not to mention that according to the databook 4 timeline, Orochimaru was dying and need a new body.



> The databook shows this to be patently untrue. Itachi at 17 was significantly more skilled/proficient than 26-year-old Kakashi.​




The databook shows a lot of bullshit. Look at the manga and it tells a different story. Kakashi at 13 was a sensor. Itachi could NEVER sense. Kakashi mastered sharingan despite being a non Uchiha. Kakashi can use the 8th gates. Kakashi has S/T jutsu. He's a complete ninja unlike Itachi.



> Even when Kakashi has an extra five years of training, and Itachi is eaten up by disease, the difference in skill remains.



Extra five years? He hadn't been training as he admitted in part 1 that he was severely out of shape. Itachi's sickness didn't hinder him at all.



Hussain said:


> Kakashi is a sensor?
> 
> as for the Rassengan although we know he has it, but we don't know when did he learn it.



Yes, Kakashi has smell sensing and he can sense through the air currents.

He learned rasengan before he created chidori as he the sole reason he created chidori was because he couldn't combine rasengan with an element. So he learned it at age 13 or before.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 13, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi's knowledge of the world is vastly superior to Itachi.



If that were true, he wouldn't have had a 4.5 at 26.​


IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi-
> 5 affinities per the fucking databook.



Is the DB shit or not? Make up your mind.​


IchLiebe said:


> 8th Gates user



Yet still inferior in taijutsu according to the DB.​


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## IchLiebe (Dec 13, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> If that were true, he wouldn't have had a 4.5 at 26.​



Don't put much faith in the databook. We've seen them both. Itachi had false info (Madara taking Izuna's eyes when really Izuna gave them up. Madara was still alive) while Kakashi had true info (Byakugan and sharingan being related). And even then to say Itachi is the most intelligent ninja to have ever lived...there's a reason you didn't argue against Madara when I brought him up.



> Is the DB shit or not? Make up your mind.​



9/10 it's shit. I was using the db like you did. Take it away and Kakashi has 3 affinities to Itachi's 2. Still more skilled.



> Yet still inferior in taijutsu according to the DB.​



And you think someone who can use the gates is less skilled taijutsu wise? LOLOL. Neji couldn't even use the gates while Lee could. Both genius's but we know who's better.

Cold hard facts-
Kakashi has more affinities.
Kakashi's a sensor, Itachi's not.
Kakashi has S/T jutsu, Itachi doesn't.
Kakashi is a tracking nin, Itachi isn't.

Everything Itachi has, Kakashi has or beats. While you can't say the same the other way.


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## Bloo (Dec 13, 2014)

I'm convinced IchLiebe is beyond obsessed with Itachi. He comments more in his threads than most of his fans.

Anyway, I would say people jumping on the ship of Shisui automatically being superior are people that simply ride hype. The same people that assumed Tobi was stronger than most characters because he was "Madara," despite showing impressive feats. Then it was revealed that that claim was bullshit and their entire logic came crashing.

Shisui was most definitely strong, but saying he was definitely stronger than Itachi if they had both grown up together, is a baseless stretch. As Strategoob pointed out, Uchiha elite believed Itachi had to have been the person to have killed Shisui. Why? Because they probably deemed him to be one of the only ones capable of doing so. Itachi was a few years younger than Shisui and yet they were portrayed as having a neck-to-neck victory count between them. With Shisui having ONE win over Itachi. Add to that that Danzo just stole an eye from Shisui and then he fears Itachi.

Shisui may have had Koto, but Itachi still has a deadly arsenal of his own (including a genjutsu capable of killing, by Kakashi's own word). Until we see Shisui, in the manga, execute one jutsu, one punch, one kick, one shuriken throw, then we can't say shit about how he compares to Itachi. Let alone how they would compare at their respective peaks.

This is a mystery left unsolved because there is no way to debate it.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 13, 2014)

Bloo said:


> I'm convinced IchLiebe is beyond obsessed with Itachi. He comments more in his threads than most of his fans.



I think it's funny how much people bullshit about it but that's about it.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 13, 2014)

Itachi is stronger, with Susano and Amaterasu he's easily capable of giving more S-ranks trouble.

Shisui was probably a decently fast ninja with a one-shot jutsu that he could only use so often. He's a great 1-on-1 ninja, but he'd be shit against any large platoon with talent or an army of sorts. 

Without Susano, Amaterasu, Itachi's versatile Genjutsu or Bunshin, I don't see how he'd be superior to him at all.

As for who is more skilled between Kakashi and Itachi, it's obvious that is Kakashi. Mastering the Sharingan to the level of MS while not being a Uchiha and only having one eye is easily one of the most impressive skilled feats to date. Itachi is a clone of every other Uchiha, Katons, Genjutsu, Amaterasu and Susano, weaker than Madara and less skilled and versatile than Obito. He never created anything, every technique he used was once manifested by ninja of his bloodline and his younger brother showcased more individual talent than Itachi when he expanded his Raiton release to control lightning bolts and manipulated Amaterasu creating Blaze Release.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 13, 2014)

Unlocking the MS is not, nor has it ever been, portrayed as a matter of skill. There are specific conditions that unlock it, regardless of talent. Similarly, Kagutsuchi is a technique separate from Amaterasu, not a heightened level control of the Amaterasu jutsu.

Other than that, being weaker than Madara is irrelevant, and we know from  that he believed Itachi to be more skilled than himself, as an individual is not 'ceaselessly amazed' by someone that is less skilled than them.​


IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi's a sensor, Itachi's not.
> Kakashi is a tracking nin, Itachi isn't.



Itachi's so much more skilled than Kakashi that he's a better sensor even though he's not a sensor, given that Itachi was the only one in the village to  sniffing around Konoha.​


IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi has S/T jutsu, Itachi doesn't.



Tsukuyomi time compression, summoning crows, sealing giant Hydras into little gourds, and manipulating the separate genjutsu dimension are all examples of space and time manipulation.​


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 13, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Unlocking the MS is not, nor has it ever been, portrayed as a matter of skill. There are specific conditions that unlock it, regardless of talent. Similarly, Kagutsuchi is a technique separate from Amaterasu, not a heightened level control of the Amaterasu jutsu.
> 
> Other than that, being weaker than Madara is irrelevant, and we know from  that he believed Itachi to be more skilled than himself, as an individual is not 'ceaselessly amazed' by someone that is less skilled than them.​


Making Blaze Release even that more impressive in creation, as far as Kirin is concerned, that is an S-rank technique that Sasuke created himself. 

Whether or not he believed it is irrelevant, the manga showcased otherwise. Obito successfully became a Jinchuriki of the Juubi and controlled the Gedo Mazo and Jinchuriki Edos like it was second nature to him. There is no doubt, that in my mind, Obito is an infinitely more skilled ninja than Itachi ever could have been. 

You need to face the facts, Itachi never crawled out of his Uchiha arsenal to create anything interesting of note. There are literally numerous ninja in the Akatsuki who had more skill than him in their own creations.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 13, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Making Blaze Release even that more impressive in creation.



It's no more a creation than Amaterasu. It's the other MS technique.



DaVizWiz said:


> Whether or not he believed it is irrelevant.



Kind of relevant, given he observed and knew Itachi better than the reader.



DaVizWiz said:


> You need to face the facts, Itachi never crawled out of his Uchiha arsenal to create anything interesting of note.



Even if this were true, he'd still be the most skilled. But:

1. 
2.  (amazed Obito)
3. unique medical transplant procedure
4. unique clone
5. 

You'll notice that the author had Itachi's uniqueness stem around sealing and illusions, the two arts that the author hyped as exceptionally difficult for ninja. And then a mad-scientist Sharingan-crow for good measure.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 13, 2014)

> It's no more a creation than Amaterasu. It's the other MS technique.


It's an advanced version of Amaterasu, something that went beyond Itachi's skill. 



> Kind of relevant, given he observed Itachi more than the reader.


Not at all, considering Obito was reluctant to climb out of his shell for a number of years, which is why he let Naruto grow to become powerful before snatching him.

Moreover, I don't necessarily give two shits what Obito said. He was clearly more skilled than Itachi, there was virtually nothing Obito couldn't do. 



> Even if this were true, he'd still be the most skilled. But:
> 
> 1.
> 2.
> ...


I know of all of this. But it's not even close to what Obito and Kakashi showcased with their skill, some of which is Kakashi successfully controlling the power of DMS + Rikudo chakra instantly, and Obito being able to remotely place 50% Kurama into Naruto's body instantly through his hand. Extremely skilled and talented ninja.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 13, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> It's an advanced version of Amaterasu



No, it's not. When it was first introduced, C clearly stated that Kagutsuchi was the ability in Sasuke's other eye.​


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 13, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> No, it's not. When it was first introduced, C clearly stated that Kagutsuchi was the ability in Sasuke's other eye.​


C was wrong, unless you can otherwise prove it. 

Are you suggesting Sasuke has 4 powers with his MS?

And yes, having Blaze Release still means Sasuke was more skilled at Amaterasu than Itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 13, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> C was wrong, unless you can otherwise prove it.
> 
> Are you suggesting Sasuke has 4 powers with his MS?



Sasuke does not have Tsukuyomi.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 13, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Sasuke does not have Tsukuyomi.


Sasuke has MS Genjutsu. 
Sasuke has Amaterasu.
Sasuke has Susano. 

And now you're claiming he has Blaze Release in one of his eyes. Which, to me, still means Sasuke is more skilled with the utilization of MS than Itachi was as the third time he canonically used it the guy was remotely controlling the flames.

None of this relevant as it's already been proven Sasuke is more skilled than Itachi as he was directly compared to Hagoromo by Kurama.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 13, 2014)

Casting genjutsu with the MS is not a special MS technique, just like predicting or copying jutsu with the MS is not a special MS technique. He has: Amaterasu, Kagutsuchu, and Susano'o.​


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 13, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Casting genjutsu with the MS is not a special MS technique, just like predicting or copying jutsu with the MS is not a special MS technique.


It is an MS technique, otherwise Obito, Madara and Sasuke wouldn't have used it with MS active.

Just because it doesn't have a flashy name doesn't mean it isn't part of MS' power set.

Obito and Madara both used it to control Kurama, and Sauske used it to stop Killer Bee.


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## ARGUS (Dec 13, 2014)

Itachi is definitely stronger than Shisui, 

apart from genjutsu KA, shisui has got nothing on itachi at all, 

Susanoo, totsuka, and Amaterasu are well above Shisuis caliber when even Danzo managed to overwhelm him and take out his eye, 
whereas Itachi ordered  danzo to stay away from sasuke, and the former did exactly that, 
and Susanoo/Amaterasu are something that only upper kage levels could stand up agains


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## IchLiebe (Dec 13, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi's so much more skilled than Kakashi that he's a better sensor even though he's not a sensor, given that Itachi was the only one in the village to  sniffing around Konoha.​



Itachi merely saw him, didn't sense him. He fucking noticed someone going to the Uchiha shrine. That's it.



> Tsukuyomi time compression, summoning crows, sealing giant Hydras into little gourds, and manipulating the separate genjutsu dimension are all examples of space and time manipulation.​



That is quite possibly the dumbest shit I've heard. None of those except summoning is S/T jutsu and lets get real, it's not worth talking about.




Strategoob said:


> Even if this were true, he'd still be the most skilled. But:
> 
> 1.



They were thinking of someone who could possibly do it. It doesn't mean Itachi can do it. Itachi's never had more than one person under genjutsu, Kakashi has.



> 2.  (amazed Obito)



What the hell are you talking about? That scan has nothing to do with sealing trap nor Obito.



> 3. unique medical transplant procedure



Unique? You mean like everyone who's popped eyeballs. It's pretty common.



> 4. unique clone



And need I list the people with unique clones that no one has because Kakashi's one.



> 5.



Madara did that shit to himself with Izanagi.



> You'll notice that the author had Itachi's uniqueness stem around sealing and illusions, the two arts that the author hyped as exceptionally difficult for ninja. And then a mad-scientist Sharingan-crow for good measure.



Kakashi has both sealing and illusions jutsu. And not only is he good in those departments, he's the single handily most well rounded ninja in the manga. Sensor, tracker, 3 affinities, illusion user (stalemated Obito who has genjutsu hyped to be equal to Shisui), S/T jutsu (real fucking s/t jutsu), unique bunshins (actually damages the other person unlike bitch crows), wide array of ninja tools, and taijutsu move (gates, thousands years of pain).


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## ki0 (Dec 13, 2014)

It's hard to tell which is stronger. Lets look at what they have in common:

- Both are great at genjutsu
- Both were fast
- Both had MS
- Both were Anbu
- Both used crows

So there arsenal and fighting style were probably similar. If I had to note the differences I think were important:

- Itachi was noted to be a genius, Shisui wasn't
- Itachi was noted to have high intelligence, Shisui wasn't
- Itachi had experience from being in Akatsuki
- Itachi was an ANBU captain, as far as I know Shisui wasn't
- Itachi had exceptional skill with kunai, as far I know Shisui didn't
- Shisui was older
- Shisui was the better genjutsu master
- Shisui was nicknamed the "Shisui of the Mirage" for his speed. Itachi wasn't named for his speed.
- Itachi has a larger arsenal.


So Shisui was better at genjutsu and likely faster than Itachi, but Itachi was more intelligent, better at kunai, more versatile, and probably has higher quality experience than Shisui (since he was in Akatsuki).


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## Orochibuto (Dec 14, 2014)

Koto is Lelouch Geass++. Shisui stomps, his MS is Kamui GG tier in the scale.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 14, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> Koto is Lelouch Geass++. Shisui stomps, his MS is Kamui GG tier in the scale.


Doesn't mean he's stronger than Itachi.

Put Shisui and Itachi against 1,000 ninja, see who wipes them out faster. 

Itachi is more versatile than Shisui, he has more battlefield presence, and he's far more suited for multiple-ninja match ups.

Better yet, put them against Gaara or Deidara with 1KM distance separation, who performs better?

Put them against Killer Bee or Naruto, who performs better?

Put them against the Seven Swordsmen in the mist, Gengetsu in the Yin-mist, Jiraiya in the dust cloud, invisible Mu, the Gokage, or Pain... who performs better? 

Itachi does. Why? Because his only useful technique, Koto, is not going to help him in the above scenarios.


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## Turrin (Dec 14, 2014)

A crow with Shisui's eye 1 shotted Edo-Itachi, it can't get any more obvious that Shisui > Itachi than that. Itachi may have been better when Shisui's eyes were on cool down though.


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## Ghost (Dec 14, 2014)

MS Shisui was slightly above 13 year old three tomoe Itachi. 

prime Itachi > Shisui

Itachi is better than Shisui in every aspect except for movement speed and Shisui has nothing but hype backing that up.


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## JuicyG (Dec 14, 2014)

Were also trying to add this "what-if" in here as well guys. 

If you didn't notice, the topic was about Shisui being stronger than Itachi if he had lived on maintaining both of his eyes. Itachi only obtained MS through Shisui anyways, the means that Shisui obtained his is a mystery still. Shisui was using 3T Sharingan in a spar against Itachi that Shisui won. And in the anime (which is partly what is being discussed here), Shisui has the susano as well.  And what is this shit about Danzo > Shisui ? Danzo had to use Izanami on Shisui in order to take his eye in the first place. That could have also happened to Itachi. In a OVA cutscene Shisui was stated by Danzo to be the strongest of the Uchiha clan at his time. Shisui's prowess was so great, Obito refused to hand over Shisui's genetic material in his crushed right eye for Kabuto to reincarnate out of fear of being double crossed. Certainly by hype Shisui at least matches Itachi, but try and imagine his prowess years later if he didn't die off like he did.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> A crow with Shisui's eye 1 shotted Edo-Itachi, it can't get any more obvious that Shisui > Itachi than that. Itachi may have been better when Shisui's eyes were on cool down though.



You might as well argue that Hebi Sasuke > Itachi, as Itachi intended to be hit by Shisui's eye there.

Shisui would be hesitant to use Kotoamatsukami on Itachi for the same reason he was hesitant to use it on Danzou, because if it's wasted on a clone, he just wasted a great power for ten years.​


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## Nikushimi (Dec 14, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Making Blaze Release even that more impressive in creation, as far as Kirin is concerned, that is an S-rank technique that Sasuke created himself.
> 
> Whether or not he believed it is irrelevant, the manga showcased otherwise. Obito successfully became a Jinchuriki of the Juubi and controlled the Gedo Mazo and Jinchuriki Edos like it was second nature to him. There is no doubt, that in my mind, Obito is an infinitely more skilled ninja than Itachi ever could have been.
> 
> You need to face the facts, Itachi never crawled out of his Uchiha arsenal to create anything interesting of note. There are literally numerous ninja in the Akatsuki who had more skill than him in their own creations.



Skill isn't dependent on originality or creativity.

Someone who spent their lives practicing classical music and learning various different instruments could be much more skilled than someone who started a whole new genre thanks to 10 minutes on FruityLoops.

Sure Itachi didn't have any new abilities to offer, but he was tremendously skilled with what he did have. Out of all the aspects by which a shinobi is judged, Itachi's physical strength and stamina are the only two that came up merely average.

As for Obito, he was a scrub with Hashirama DNA and the benefit of an author who no longer had any fucks to give. He didn't hold a candle to Itachi in natural talent, so instead he was buffed with stolen body parts and lazy writing. Skill played no part in him becoming the Juubi Jinchuuriki.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 14, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Skill isn't dependent on originality or creativity.
> 
> Someone who spent their lives practicing classical music and learning various different instruments could be much more skilled than someone who started a whole new genre thanks to 10 minutes on FruityLoops.
> 
> ...



Don't forget the "Will of Rin." 

Dude fought Juubi and tamed it because of that.


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> A crow with Shisui's eye 1 shotted Edo-Itachi, it can't get any more obvious that Shisui > Itachi than that. Itachi may have been better when Shisui's eyes were on cool down though.



Umm...what?

The crow never one-shotted Itachi--it freed him from the Edo Tensei, and then he went and kicked the shit out of Kabuto.


----------



## Bloo (Dec 14, 2014)

Turrin said:


> A crow with Shisui's eye 1 shotted Edo-Itachi, it can't get any more obvious that Shisui > Itachi than that. Itachi may have been better when Shisui's eyes were on cool down though.


Itachi was the one who set that up. I don't see how this makes anything of a comparison in strength between these two obvious. It's a plot-driven semantic that Itachi put in motion. Shisui had no involvement in it.


----------



## JuicyG (Dec 14, 2014)

ki0 said:


> It's hard to tell which is stronger. Lets look at what they have in common:
> 
> - Both are great at genjutsu
> - Both were fast
> ...



A good assessment. 

There is a lot abou Shisui that we don't really know. Anime shows Shisui with a Susano, and the move sets that go along with his is unknown. Had Shisui lived longer or at least as long as Itachi did, I just have a feeling that he would have been the slight superior, he also was never noted to have a sickness or lack in chakra reserves


----------



## Bloo (Dec 14, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> A good assessment.
> 
> There is a lot abou Shisui that we don't really know. Anime shows Shisui with a Susano, and the move sets that go along with his is unknown. Had Shisui lived longer or at least as long as Itachi did, I just have a feeling that he would have been the slight superior, he also was never noted to have a sickness or lack in chakra reserves


I don't know how you can say that, though. There's nothing to base that off of. Especially considering that they were nearly matched, outside of Koto, with Shisui being older. I just don't buy there being much evidence for this feeling.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Dec 14, 2014)

> Skill isn't dependent on originality or creativity.


Having great skill, most of the time, is an indication of great talent, talent breeds creation. 



> Someone who spent their lives practicing classical music and learning various different instruments could be much more skilled than someone who started a whole new genre thanks to 10 minutes on FruityLoops.


That's a terrible comparison considering most of the ninja in the manga that have created incredibly unique A/S-rank techniques are also stout ninja in almost every category. 
Just to name a few:
Hashirama
Tobirama
Minato
Madara
Jiraiya
Orochimaru
Tsunade
Naruto
Sasuke
Danzo
Hanzo
Chiyo
Kakashi
Gai
Kabuto
Sasori
Deidara
Kisame
Kakuzu
Onoki
3rd Raikage

In fact, let's be honest- no ninja that has created a single high-level technique has been below high-jounin level overall. In this manga, if you create something extraordinary, it means you are highly skilled. 



> Sure Itachi didn't have any new abilities to offer, but he was tremendously skilled with what he did have. Out of all the aspects by which a shinobi is judged, Itachi's physical strength and stamina are the only two that came up merely average.


He was arguably less skilled than the only other MS users with panel time.

Obito, Sasuke and Madara are all more skilled than him. Denying this is nothing more than blind fanboyism, everyone of them could do more than Itachi could. 

Most MS users in the manga are arguably top-tier in skill. Kinda comes with being a Uchiha (Indra gifted from birth) and having a Sharingan. 



> As for Obito, he was a scrub with Hashirama DNA and the benefit of an author who no longer had any fucks to give. He didn't hold a candle to Itachi in natural talent, so instead he was buffed with stolen body parts and lazy writing. Skill played no part in him becoming the Juubi Jinchuuriki.


Obito could do anything Itachi could and then some. Whatever he wanted to do, he did, period. Nothing was out of his reach, he either grasped it immediately with pure talent or already knew how to to do it through training and knowledge. 

Yin Barriers, instant mastery over Truth Seekers, instant control over the Juubi to the point of manifesting 4 Juubidamas in a flash, showcasing unbelievable skill in controlling Six Paths Edo Jinchuriki and Gedo Mazo simultaneously without a machine (infinitely better than Nagato), showcasing proficient skill in close quarter combat to the point of pressuring KCM Naruto with Kakashi and Gai on his ass and seemingly always knowing when a blindside is imminent, showing proficient sealing capabilities by instantly transfusing 50% Kurama into Naruto, showing proficient skill with Kamui to the point of opening up warp holes into other dimensions not thought to exist previously, crushing necks with his bare hand, blocking Zabuza's blade with his arm, putting Kurama under a puppet Genjutsu, showcasing proficient knowledge of the verse throughout the manga, utilizing perfect Izanagi, utilizing Kamui as a means to fan his own Katon, utilizing Kamui to instantly warp out war-weaponry at high-speeds, instantly mastering his Kamui and Mokuton without previous practice, etc.

This guy made Itachi look like the warm-up act to the real power of the Uchiha. He was hyped by Minato as unbeatable when he was a teenager, people thought he was literally Madara. Obito was the big bad wolf in the room that knew how to do everything better than you.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 14, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Having great skill, most of the time, is an indication of great talent, talent breeds creation.



Michael Jordan didn't create anything in basketball, Michael Phelps didn't invent a new swim stroke, etc.​


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## IchLiebe (Dec 14, 2014)

^But the one who invented swimming was the best at swimming.


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## Bloo (Dec 15, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> ^But the one who invented swimming was the best at swimming.


That's a baseless claim. The inventor of swimming is not as talented as Michael Phelps.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 15, 2014)

It means he's the only swimmer at the time aka the best. 

Itachi isn't the best, he isn't the 2nd best, he isn't even in the top 10 most skilled ninja.


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## Bloo (Dec 15, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> It means he's the only swimmer at the time aka the best.
> 
> Itachi isn't the best, he isn't the 2nd best, he isn't even in the top 10 most skilled ninja.


Most of the shinobi skills were invented long before Itachi and Shisui's parent's were even conceived. How is this relevant?

Okay. Cool. When it comes to Itachi, I couldn't care less about your opinion because your opinion literally means nothing to me on this front.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 15, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Most of the shinobi skills were invented long before Itachi and Shisui's parent's were even conceived. How is this relevant?



Kakashi created shit. Sasuke created shit. Naruto created shit. Etc.



> Okay. Cool. When it comes to Itachi, I couldn't care less about your opinion because your opinion literally means nothing to me on this front.



It's not opinion. To say Itachi is the most skilled ninja is ridiculous. Kakashi, Minato, Madara, Hashirama, Obito, SM Kabuto are some of the most skilled ninja. They range in all kinds of shit and did shit other shinobi just couldn't. Itachi hasn't shown something that just shows how exceptionally skilled he is. Everything he's done, someone else has done.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 15, 2014)

Creating shit and being skilled @ using something are two different concepts, one doesn't follow the other.


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## Trojan (Dec 15, 2014)

Itachi is obviously skilled, and that was shown, and probably even stated though I don't remember since
I don't care much about him. However, he's obviously not the most skilled, not sure from where that came from.
Yet, he's surely top 10 in this regard.


----------



## IchLiebe (Dec 15, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Creating shit and being skilled @ using something are two different concepts, one doesn't follow the other.



Creating takes skill. That's a jutsu's rank, how hard it is to use.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 15, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Creating takes skill. That's a jutsu's rank, how hard it is to use.



I didn't say it doesn't take skill. 
I said creating something and being good @ something aren't linked.

Tobirama created ET but Orochimaru honed it and is more skilled with it.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 15, 2014)

Tobirama is the most skilled ninja in fucking history. No ninja would've been able to make Edo Tensei. And not only did he create edo tensei, he had individual jutsu's for his's edo's. I don't see how Orochimaru is more skilled with it. 

Tobirama created kage bunshin, edo tensei, hiraishin, and god knows what. And creating takes a hell of a lot more skill than learning.

Also didn't Hashirama bar Tobirama from using ET.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 16, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Tobirama is the most skilled ninja in fucking history.


Evidence ? 



> No ninja would've been able to make Edo Tensei.


evidence ? 



> And not only did he create edo tensei, he had individual jutsu's for his's edo's. I don't see how Orochimaru is more skilled with it.


Stated in the manga ?



> Tobirama created kage bunshin, edo tensei, hiraishin, and god knows what. And creating takes a hell of a lot more skill than learning.


Again, for the 3rd time, creating something and being good @ it are different concepts.

Just because someone created X doesn't mean he is the most skilled @ X.

Minato is better @ Hirashin than Tobirama, despite Tobirama being the creator of it.
Orochimaru's ET is better than Tobirama's, despite Tobirama being the creator.



> Also didn't Hashirama bar Tobirama from using ET.


I don't know how this is any relevant.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 16, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Tobirama is the most skilled ninja in fucking history.



After Itachi.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 16, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Evidence ?



Look at his arsenal. He created damn near everything.



> evidence ?



Show me one ninja that even has knowledge on spiritual beings besides the users of Edo tensei.



> Stated in the manga ?



Yes. The jutsu he used against Juubito.



> Again, for the 3rd time, creating something and being good @ it are different concepts.
> 
> Just because someone created X doesn't mean he is the most skilled @ X.
> 
> Minato is better @ Hirashin than Tobirama, despite Tobirama being the creator of it.



Creating something takes more skill than learning it. Not saying the people who learn it is less skilled at the jutsu just that the creator took more skill than the learner.



> Orochimaru's ET is better than Tobirama's, despite Tobirama being the creator.



Evidence?



> I don't know how this is any relevant.



How is Tobirama supposed to get better at it if Hashirama forbid him from using it?



Strategoob said:


> After Itachi.



LOL, Itachi ain't even top 10. Well maybe on the bitch list.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 16, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi, Minato, Madara, Hashirama, Obito, SM Kabuto are some of the most skilled ninja.



Most of the ninja there were amazed by Itachi. ​


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## IchLiebe (Dec 16, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Most of the ninja there were amazed by Itachi. ​



A lot of Germans were amazed by Hitler only difference is Itachi didn't commit genocide...oh wait :amazed.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 17, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Look at his arsenal. He created damn near everything.


He didn't, and that doesn't mean he is more skilled than everyone else.



> Show me one ninja that even has knowledge on spiritual beings besides the users of Edo tensei.


I don't get it.



> Yes. The jutsu he used against Juubito.


I was referring to the part where Oro's ET was stated to be better than Tobirama's.



> Creating something takes more skill than learning it. Not saying the people who learn it is less skilled at the jutsu just that the creator took more skill than the learner.


I am not talking about learning it.
I am talking about using it. 
What you might be referring to is creativity and intelligence. 



> Evidence?


sometime after Wave Arc.
Created by 2nd, perfected by Orochimaru.



> How is Tobirama supposed to get better at it if Hashirama forbid him from using it?


He can't, and he wasn't.

Did Hashirama forbid using Hirashin too ?


----------



## slik91 (Apr 8, 2015)

Itachi was indeed the most genius of all ninja shown, in the first minute of his fight with Nagato, he immediately blinded the the king of hell and the other summons with Kunai, from blind spots and undetected. He then within moments devised how to stop chibaku tensei, and then in an instant he stabbed Nagato with the sword of totsuka after that. Itachi was severely haxed in that he was the deadliest thinker in the entire manga. Plotwise Kishi had to keep him down in various ways, in life it was disease and his own pre planned death, and as an edo it was him having to keep Kabuto alive to stop edo tensei and planning to use Izanami to save Kabuto. Itachi truly was someone that no ninja could simply beat 1 on 1 if it was a death battle. Itachi at full health and full eyesight with no disease at all would wreck any shinobi 1 on 1 with his Yata Mirror, Izanami, and Sword of Totsuka combo, with his battle instinct and deadly thinking/intelligence. He HAD to be killed as a plot device because Kishi put his foot in his mouth creating him and making him how he was.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 8, 2015)

IchLiebe said:


> A lot of Germans were amazed by Hitler only difference is Itachi didn't commit genocide...oh wait :amazed.



Itachi is literally Hitler.


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## Turrin (Apr 8, 2015)

Most of the time Itachi is going to be more dangerous as Koto will be on recharge, but if were talking both of them at their best Shisui is more dangerous because Koto is one of the most broken techniques in the manga. Additionally in a straight-forward fight Shisui gets the benefit of the doubt to win over Itachi. Shisui's with his hyped Shunshin combined with precog it's very possible he could evade Amaterasu, and with his Genjutsu knowledge and Mangekyo it's very possible he could counter Tsukuyomi. Koto is also perfect for bypassing Susano'o and Itachi isn't countering Shisui using Koto, if he couldn't counter it when programmed to defend himself as an Edo, and failing to counter it when used by a fodder crow. 

Itachi is the better Shinobi because he doesn't have to wait decade after using his Mangekyo, but when Shisui has his Mangekyo he is so broken that, it's really no contest.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 8, 2015)

Itachi _wanted_ to overwrite the Edo spell. If he _didn't_ want to then maybe he could resist Koto e.g. he didn't attack Sasuke when Sasuke declared that he'd destroy Konoha.

IMO Koto is effective if the enemy doesn't anticipate its use. If they suspect implanted manipulation, then it can be resisted or worked around. "Every jutsu has a weakness."​


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## Turrin (Apr 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi _wanted_ to overwrite the Edo spell. If he _didn't_ want to then maybe he could resist Koto e.g. he didn't attack Sasuke when Sasuke declared that he'd destroy Konoha.
> 
> IMO Koto is effective if the enemy doesn't anticipate its use. If they suspect implanted manipulation, then it can be resisted or worked around. "Every jutsu has a weakness."​



Itachi can want it to overwrite the tag all he wants, but he is on auto-pilot to defend himself, so if he could have resisted or escaped the Jutsu he would have been compelled to do so by Edo-Tensei. The fact that he got hit, means he could not avoid it or defend against it.

Sasuke would also suspect manipulation, if he suddenly went from wanting to destroy Konoha to wishing to protect it, yet Itachi himself was confident it would work against him. Danzo was also confident it would work against Uchiha Madara of all people. The Data-book also states it controls people like puppets, which doesn't work with your interpretation. 

Itachi was able to not kill Sasuke, because he was just programmed to protect the leaf village; that gives a-lot of free-will, such as if he believed Kabuto was a bigger threat or sincerely believed Sasuke was not a threat he could avoid attacking Sasuke.

The weakness of Koto is it's recharge, not what your citing.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 9, 2015)

Neither Sasuke nor Madara would be expected to have knowledge of Koto, which fits with the interpretation that its main power is the stealthy implantation of thoughts.

I believe that's how the genjutsu was initially hyped by Ao as well - that it was indistinguishable from ones own thoughts and could be used without any sensory cues. But I'm fine agreeing to disagree.​


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## LostSelf (Apr 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi was considered capable and suspected of killing Shisui when he was 13 years old, by ninja who knew both of them. And in the anime, Shisui was "one match" better than kid Itachi.
> 
> Itachi had defeated Orochimaru two years prior and was working under cover in Akatsuki for Hiruzen, so that's not exactly putting Shisui down by any means. Shisui was still a top tier force.
> 
> ...




I haven't seen Gai in this thread. This is bad. Let's bring him.
Considering Itachi wouldn't have 'unlimited growth' like a Saiyan, he is outclassed by Gai, who mastered his own powerup without even using it once and got to the level of dancing and making Juubi Jiin, run.

No amount of years in Itachi's life would've made him do that .


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## Turrin (Apr 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Neither Sasuke nor Madara would be expected to have knowledge of Koto, which fits with the interpretation that its main power is the stealthy implantation of thoughts.
> 
> I believe that's how the genjutsu was initially hyped by Ao as well - that it was indistinguishable from ones own thoughts and could be used without any sensory cues. But I'm fine agreeing to disagree.​


They have knowledge of their goals tho. So if knowledge mattered they'd know that their goals suddenly changed and therefore suspect something is amiss. The only way that is not the case is if Koto works despite knowledge. So ether despite Sasuke or Madara knowing their goals changed they won't act on this or Koto actually erases their prior memories. Ether way the Jutsu would still work regardless of someone knowing about Koto.

If it's option 1, than knowing they were effected by Koto they still wouldn't act on it. If it's option 2 than Koto would also erase their memories of Koto. Again ether way knowledge of Koto or not, would still result in mind-rape.


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## Kai (Apr 9, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Shisui's with his hyped Shunshin combined with precog it's very possible he could evade Amaterasu.


Except Shisui doesn't possess hype for his reflexes, least considerable enough to warrant the assumption that he could react to Amaterasu.

Physically, it's unlikely he's anywhere near shrouded A pumping his maximum chakra.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 9, 2015)

Kai said:


> Except Shisui doesn't possess hype for his reflexes, least considerable enough to warrant the assumption that he could react to Amaterasu.


You need high reflexes to use Shunshin as quickly as Shisui is hyped to be capable off. He also has Sharingan's insight which will aid his reaction time here as he will see Itachi gathering chakra at his eyes well before the Jutsu goes off and have more time to react.



> Physically, it's unlikely he's anywhere near shrouded A pumping his maximum chakra.


The situations aren't comparable. Ei needed to react at the last second to Amaterasu forming on him. Shisui has Sharingan so he can see the chakra being gather to MS and react much quicker. It's the same reason why Nagato was able to sense the pressure build up for Amaterasu so far ahead of the Jutsu's actual release that Base-B had time to throw a sword at Itachi, Nagato to deflect it, all before Amaterasu went off.


----------



## Kai (Apr 9, 2015)

Turrin said:


> You need high reflexes to use Shunshin as quickly as Shisui is hyped to be capable off. He also has Sharingan's insight which will aid his reaction time here as he will see Itachi gathering chakra at his eyes well before the Jutsu goes off and have more time to react.


That was never denied. Kakashi needs high reflexes to be able to use Raikiri perfectly. What you say doesn't make the case.

A's reflexes while shrouded with his maximum chakra was used as a template for that feat. In Shisui's case, he doesn't possess A's reflexes nor A's speed. Physically evading Amaterasu would be the worst possible defensive choice for Shisui when it doesn't prey on Amaterasu's shortcomings at all (despite him having the ability to do so), as well as the fact that he's physically nowhere near A's level to pull off a feat that grand.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> The situations aren't comparable. Ei needed to react at the last second to Amaterasu forming on him. Shisui has Sharingan so he can see the chakra being gather to MS and react much quicker. It's the same reason why Nagato was able to sense the pressure build up for Amaterasu so far ahead of the Jutsu's actual release that Base-B had time to throw a sword at Itachi, Nagato to deflect it, all before Amaterasu went off.


Preventing Amaterasu from appearing is a completely separate discussion, as we know Naruto told Bee if the latter was hit by Amaterasu he would be done for.

A 3 tomoe Sharingan's reflexes can't even compare to shrouded A's reflexes fueled with maximum chakra. Choose the situation, it hardly matters.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 10, 2015)

Kai said:


> That was never denied. Kakashi needs high reflexes to be able to use Raikiri perfectly. What you say doesn't make the case.
> .


Kakashi is not famous for his Speed though. So I give Shisui the benefit of the doubt to be quicker than Kakashi.



> A's reflexes while shrouded with his maximum chakra was used as a template for that feat. In Shisui's case, he doesn't possess A's reflexes nor A's speed. Physically evading Amaterasu would be the worst possible defensive choice for Shisui when it doesn't prey on Amaterasu's shortcomings at all (despite him having the ability to do so), as well as the fact that he's physically nowhere near A's level to pull off a feat that grand.
> Preventing Amaterasu from appearing is a completely separate discussion, as we know Naruto told Bee if the latter was hit by Amaterasu he would be done for.
> 
> A 3 tomoe Sharingan's reflexes can't even compare to shrouded A's reflexes fueled with maximum chakra. Choose the situation, it hardly matte



I think your missing the point. Ei could not see the build up of chakra leading up to Amaterasu's release. Ei had to react to the release itself.

Someone with Sharingan can see that build up and instead react to the build up. 

So while Ei's reflexes are probably much better than Shisui's, Shisui gets a head start on Ei due to Sharingan's insight.

So Shisui starts to move out of Itachi's field of vision the moment he see's the build up of chakra. Ei doesn't start to move out of Itachi's field of vision until Amaterasu is released. 

Because Shisui gets that head start, he doesn't need reflexes as good as Ei's. 

This is the same reason Hebi-Sasuke was able to avoid Amaterasu for a good period of time before being hit.

--------

But regardless of whether you wish to believe Shisui can dodge Amaterasu or not, we saw Koto outspeed it. So if Shisui does not believe he can dodge an MS Tech, he will simply prempt it with Koto and that's GG.


----------



## Kai (Apr 10, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi is not famous for his Speed though. So I give Shisui the benefit of the doubt to be quicker than Kakashi.


Yes, but is being famous for speed a cause for giving the benefit for avoiding Amaterasu? 

There is actually more doubt in the equation when we witness A's physical capabilities, which are far beyond what is known of Shisui's.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> I think your missing the point. Ei could not see the build up of chakra leading up to Amaterasu's release. Ei had to react to the release itself.
> 
> Someone with Sharingan can see that build up and instead react to the build up.
> 
> ...


I think you're missing the point. It matters not if Shisui sees chakra within Itachi's eye when he is *neither* reflexive nor as fast as A is. Those attributes are needed on that level for physical evasion.

Shisui's reflexes *and* speed are not on A's level, and A was used as a physical measure for dodging Amaterasu in the manga.

There's also nothing that suggests Shisui's Shunshin is beyond Itachi's capacity to follow with his Sharingan.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> But regardless of whether you wish to believe Shisui can dodge Amaterasu or not, we saw Koto outspeed it. So if Shisui does not believe he can dodge an MS Tech, he will simply prempt it with Koto and that's GG.


Of course I agree Shisui can preempt or prevent Amaterasu, but like I said that is a separate discussion.

From what is known of Shisui, he doesn't possess the physical capabilities to actually evade Amaterasu.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 10, 2015)

Gaara's sand is not as fast as A either, and yet it was more than enough to dodge the Amatersu. Where was it stated that you have to be at least as fast as A?

Though it does not matter anyway even if it landed, he can use Kawarimi, he should be able to use that jutsu.


----------



## Kai (Apr 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Gaara's sand is not as fast as A either, and yet it was more than enough to dodge the Amatersu. Where was it stated that you have to be at least as fast as A?
> 
> Though it does not matter anyway even if it landed, he can use Kawarimi, he should be able to use that jutsu.


Gaara reacted to Enton projectiles, not Amaterasu.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 10, 2015)

Enton is Amatersu being manipulated. It's at a higher level which makes it even better of a feat... U_U


----------



## Kai (Apr 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Enton is Amatersu being manipulated. It's at a higher level which makes it even better of a feat... U_U


Except Kagutsuchi doesn't appear "instantly" at the user's focal point. It manipulates the flames after they have been cast.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 10, 2015)

Neither do the Amatersu. If it appears instantly, then A wouldn't have avoided it.


----------



## Turrin (Apr 10, 2015)

@Kai

I think we're talking past each other. What your calling preempt, i'm calling evade. I don't mean Shisui can evade the actual release of Amaterasu, I mean that Shisui can see the chakra build up and start evading before the release. Unless you disagree with the latter statement, there is no real difference between what your saying and what i'm saying.


----------



## Kai (Apr 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Neither do the Amatersu. If it appears instantly, then A wouldn't have avoided it.


That's why instantly was paired with quotation marks...

Point is Kagutsuchi isn't as fast as the initial release of Amaterasu. Gaara's feat of defense only further supports that fact, not the other way around.



Turrin said:


> @Kai
> 
> I think we're talking past each other. What your calling preempt, i'm calling evade. I don't mean Shisui can evade the actual release of Amaterasu, I mean that Shisui can see the chakra build up and start evading before the release. Unless you disagree with the latter statement, there is no real difference between what your saying and what i'm saying.


I know we disagree because Shisui is evading nothing prior to Amaterasu's release, and there's nothing to extract from that suggests Shisui's Shunshin is faster than Itachi's Sharingan can follow. I don't see how Shisui can force Itachi to misfire using purely his speed when A) this is not a bomb, Itachi makes flames appear when he's ready and B) it's only speculation that Shisui can move out of Itachi's field of vision.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Neither do the Amatersu. If it appears instantly, then A wouldn't have avoided it.



Amaterasu appears on the focal point. It's always been  that away, any other projectile is shown moving in multiple panels except Amaterasu, we just see the shot of an eye and then the flames "appearing" on a spot. 

2
2

See how Naruto's truth seeker balls are trying to "move" inside the ice, but amaterasu simply appears and melts the ice around it. If amaterasu was "shot" like a fireball through Sasuke's eyes, it'd leave a trace behind it like Naruto's balls.

And the 2nd page should clear any misconception about Kagutsuchi's usage.


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2015)

Kai said:


> I know we disagree because Shisui is evading nothing prior to Amaterasu's release, and there's nothing to extract from that suggests Shisui's Shunshin is faster than Itachi's Sharingan can follow. I don't see how Shisui can force Itachi to misfire using purely his speed when A) this is not a bomb, Itachi makes flames appear when he's ready and B) it's only speculation that Shisui can move out of Itachi's field of vision.



Any character that can Shunshin over a large enough distance to escape someone's field of view, can escape anyone's LOS. No ones vision in the manga can keep up with anyones Shunshin, period.

What distinguishes one Shunshin users from another, is their reaction time and how great of a distance they can cover with Shunshin. 

Reaction time controls, how quickly they can use Shunshin in response to an attack, how well they can control the Shunshin, and time an attack after the Shunshin is completed. That's why all the Sharingan users are good at Shunshin, because Sharingan Precognition helps them greatly in these areas. That's also why the Raikages and Minato are so good at Shunshin due to their legendary reflexes. And so on. 

The distance one can Shunshin comes down to the amount of chakra they pump into the jutsu. That's why B can Shunshin from one mountain to another in a single Shunshin, and later BM-Naruto can Shunshin such a far distance to intercept Obito's attack saving Kakashi.

Genin-Sakura can't Shunshin to dodge Amaterasu, because she can't Shunshin over a large enough distance or react in time to Amaterasu to use Shunshin; to give an example. 

Shisui on the other hand being a legendary Shunshin user, it's probably a safe bet that he is very good in both regards; and he has Sharingan so he can react to the chakra build up instead of the actual release of the Jutsu; using 1 or multiple Shunshin to escape Itachi's field of view before the Jutsu is released.

Of course Itachi can than try and chase him down with his LOS as he did Sasuke, but will only work if he can adjust his field of view quick enough between Shisui's Shunshin usages to eventually catch him, which I doubt given again the legendary status of Shisui's Shunshin.


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## Rocky (Apr 10, 2015)

I think you just tried to equate the speed of all Shunshins. That isn't true. 

Deidara isn't jumping out of the way of v2 A's Shunshin.


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## sanninme rikudo (Apr 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi was considered capable and suspected of killing Shisui when he was 13 years old, by ninja who knew both of them. And in the anime, Shisui was "one match" better than kid Itachi.
> 
> Itachi had defeated Orochimaru two years prior and was working under cover in Akatsuki for Hiruzen, so that's not exactly putting Shisui down by any means. Shisui was still a top tier force.
> 
> ...


I gotta agree with you here. Apart from all that Rikudo powerups or Ocular prowess crap when it really came down to it, Itachi was truly extremely skilled
He defines a prodigy.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Amaterasu appears on the focal point. It's always been  that away, any other projectile is shown moving in multiple panels except Amaterasu, we just see the shot of an eye and then the flames "appearing" on a spot.
> 
> "Then someday, you'll die against opponent*s* that are more troublesome than Orochimaru."
> "Then someday, you'll die against opponent*s* that are more troublesome than Orochimaru."
> ...



 It was shown against Hebi Sasuke and V2 Ei that Amaterasu doesn't just appear on a focal point, it actually travels to it's target. That's why Amaterasu traveled towards a fodder Samurai despite the obvious target being Ei and also the reason why Hebi Sasuke could outrun Amaterasu for a few seconds. Kishimoto even drew the "motion" lines indicating that Amaterasu was moving towards Hebi Sasuke and not just appearing instantly.

 "Then someday, you'll die against opponent*s* that are more troublesome than Orochimaru."

 As you can see, it's moving towards Hebi Sasuke, so it's not just appearing directly on the user's focal point, it actually does travel towards whatever the user's focusing on.

 Kamui, however, does appear directly on it's focal point, but it's clear Amaterasu isn't the same.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 10, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I haven't seen Gai in this thread. This is bad. Let's bring him. Considering Itachi wouldn't have 'unlimited growth' like a Saiyan, he is outclassed by Gai



Why would you think Itachi didn't possess the potential to use Gates? He had a 4.5 in taijutsu despite being very young and ill. Were he healthy and trained ten more years, who knows?​


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## Rocky (Apr 10, 2015)

Itachi would have needed to dedicate the majority of his training to strengthening the body in order to use them and not permanently damage himself. Itachi may have been able to activate one like Kakashi, but not all eight like Gai.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Itachi would have needed to dedicate the majority of his training to strengthening the body in order to use them and not permanently damage himself. Itachi may have been able to activate one like Kakashi, but not all eight like Gai.



 Well, Itach is capable of maintaining V4 Susano'o while being incredibly ill and nearly blind and it's already stated by Sasuke that his Partial Ribcage and V1 Susano'o usage was enough to damage the cells in his body to the point where he was about to collapse and that guy has some impressive pain tolerance, being able to spam MS techniques yet is unable to maintain V4 Susano'o while Itachi could in a far more severe state.

 I would think if Itachi did learn how to open the gates, he can likely open a few of them at least.


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## Kai (Apr 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> No ones vision in the manga can keep up with anyones Shunshin, period.


That is false.





Period.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> What distinguishes one Shunshin users from another, is their reaction time and how great of a distance they can cover with Shunshin.


And It's clearly due to these distinguished timing or speeds that allow certain characters to trace or react to another's Shunshin.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Reaction time controls, how quickly they can use Shunshin in response to an attack, how well they can control the Shunshin, and time an attack after the Shunshin is completed. That's why all the Sharingan users are good at Shunshin, because Sharingan Precognition helps them greatly in these areas. That's also why the Raikages and Minato are so good at Shunshin due to their legendary reflexes. And so on.


And you know what that means. If they are so well practiced and adapted to their own Shunshin, they will sure to be practiced and adapted to using their Sharingan precognition against an opposing Shunshin.

Stating no one's vision can keep up with anyone's Shunshin is a blatant lie, which after reading the details behind your claims sound intended for more specific examples than as an undisputed law for all shinobi.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Shisui on the other hand being a legendary Shunshin user, it's probably a safe bet that he is very good in both regards; and he has Sharingan so he can react to the chakra build up instead of the actual release of the Jutsu; using 1 or multiple Shunshin to escape Itachi's field of view before the Jutsu is released.


Shisui being faster than Itachi can follow with Sharingan is nothing but speculation. We established he's nowhere near A's reflexes and speed, therefore there's no implication to extract from that supports that stance even remotely.


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## Turrin (Apr 11, 2015)

Kai said:


> That is false.


First one is not Shunshin, but KN0 Naruto just moving fast.

Second one actually shows the exact opposite, with Deidara being shocked that Sasuke suddenly appears in-front of him, so he could not follow Sasuke's Shunshin and what he reacted to was Sasuke's attack after the Shunshin was completed.



> And It's clearly due to these distinguished timing or speeds that allow certain characters to trace or react to another's Shunshin.


Nope it's what allows characters to hit a character before they use Shunshin or react to their successive attack after they used Shunshin. 



> And you know what that means. If they are so well practiced and adapted to their own Shunshin, they will sure to be practiced and adapted to using their Sharingan precognition against an opposing Shunshin.


Sharingan helps a-lot in terms of reacting to the successive attack after a Shunshin, assuming it's within the person's LOS. However it doesn't help follow Shunshin itself.



> Stating no one's vision can keep up with anyone's Shunshin is a blatant lie, which after reading the details behind your claims sound intended for more specific examples than as an undisputed law for all shinobi.


K show a Shinobi intercepting someone mid Shunshin, and I'll concede the point. But to my knowledge that has never happened in the entire series, and it's always the person reacting to the successive attack, not the Shunshin itself.



> Shisui being faster than Itachi can follow with Sharingan is nothing but speculation. We established he's nowhere near A's reflexes and speed, therefore there's no implication to extract from that supports that stance even remotely.


Shunshin is too fast for Itachi to follow. What matters is if he can get him in the intervals between when he uses Shunshin, which will be very difficult if not impossible against someone who is famous for their Shunshin usaged.



Rocky said:


> I think you just tried to equate the speed of all Shunshins. That isn't true.
> 
> Deidara isn't jumping out of the way of v2 A's Shunshin.


Deidara isn't jumping out of the way of any Shunshin. He reacts to Sasuke's successive attack [sorta of]. If Ei's in the same position as Sasuke, than Deidara wouldn't react to Ei, because Ei's successive attack after his Shunshin will be faster than Sasuke's


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## Kai (Apr 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> First one is not Shunshin, but KN0 Naruto just moving fast.


Shunshin is Naruto moving fast in that page, because he doesn't always move on that level of speed. The speed is being actively applied rather than constant all the time.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Nope it's what allows characters to hit a character before they use Shunshin or react to their successive attack after they used Shunshin.


Except that idea falls flat when you consider every Shunshin is not equal with another. The differences in speed directly mean different Shunshin can be reacted to, depending on the foe's reflexes.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Sharingan helps a-lot in terms of reacting to the successive attack after a Shunshin, assuming it's within the person's LOS. However it doesn't help follow Shunshin itself.


Of course it does, or else why would shinobi be capable of adapting to their own Shunshin?



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> K show a Shinobi intercepting someone mid Shunshin, and I'll concede the point. But to my knowledge that has never happened in the entire series, and it's always the person reacting to the successive attack, not the Shunshin itself.


I already gave you scans of Sasuke visually keeping up with Naruto's Shunshin, and explained it's Shunshin rather than speed because it's being actively applied to the speed. However, let's not forget that Shunshin *is* movement.

You're getting Shunshin completely confused with space-time. Everything you state about timing, reactions, and follow up attacks apply to what we've witnessed out of space-time ninjutsu, not Shunshin.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> *Shunshin is too fast for Itachi to follow*. What matters is if he can get him in the intervals between when he uses Shunshin, which will be very difficult if not impossible against someone who is famous for their Shunshin usaged.


That is outright false, when Itachi uses his Sharingan to be accustomed to his own Shunshin speed.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Deidara isn't jumping out of the way of any Shunshin. He reacts to Sasuke's successive attack [sorta of]. If Ei's in the same position as Sasuke, than Deidara wouldn't react to Ei, because Ei's successive attack after his Shunshin will be faster than Sasuke's


No, it's because A is actually faster than Sasuke in Shunshin. 

Are you telling me with a straight face that all Shunshin speeds are equal?


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## Turrin (Apr 11, 2015)

Kai said:


> Shunshin is Naruto moving fast in that page, because he doesn't always move on that level of speed. The speed is being actively applied rather than constant all the time.


That effect isn't Shunshin, its Sasuke seeing Naruto in bullet time.



> Except that idea falls flat when you consider every Shunshin is not equal with another. The differences in speed directly mean different Shunshin can be reacted to, depending on the foe's reflexes.


Not all Shunshins are equal, but that's a matter of chakra as I previously explained. Reflexes matter when it comes to activation and timing.



> Of course it does, or else why would shinobi be capable of adapting to their own Shunshin?


Because they plan their trajectory, activation, and release of Shunshin.



> You're getting Shunshin completely confused with space-time. Everything you state about timing, reactions, and follow up attacks apply to what we've witnessed out of space-time ninjutsu, not Shunshin.


Space-Time is instant movement accross space. Shunshin isn't instant, but it's too fast for the eyes to follow. 



> No, it's because A is actually faster than Sasuke in Shunshin.
> 
> Are you telling me with a straight face that all Shunshin speeds are equal?


No because the faster shinobi will activate his quicker. It also depends on distance traveled. If the distance is large than the Shunshin will be faster, because it will have to travel a larger distance in the same amount of time. 

But if we have two shinobi with equalized reaction time, chakra, and experience using Shunshin than those Shinobi should perform the same with Shunshin

Ei is better than Sasuke with Shunshin, because his react time is better than Sasuke's and has more chakra to pump into the Jutsu than Sasuke.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 11, 2015)

Link removed

 Sasuke managed to perceive Killer Bee's movements and reacted perfectly despite Bee using Shunshin.

 Link removed

 Killer Bee mentions Ei managed to dodge his V1 Shunshin and even Killer Bee related Ei's feat compared to Sasuke's. As Ei has no sensing feats or precongnition, Ei had to have perceived his Shusnhin in order to dodge Ei.

 Link removed

 We know Ei uses Shunshin to boost the power to his due to his sheer momentum yet Minato reacted to it using Hiraishin. Minato had to have perceived Ei's Shunshin if he was able to dodge it.

 Link removed

 Just to emphasize the above point even further as Minato clearly tracked him the entire time.

 Link removed

 Here, Madara clearly was able to detect Ei's movements despite him using his max speed Shunshin.

 Link removed

 Here, Suigetsu made a statement to him in regards to Ei's speed while Ei even began his assault meaning he did perceive Ei's Shunshin, same as Jugo or he wouldn't have perceived and reacted to Ei's strike at the last second as Ei still continued his Shunshin.

 Link removed

 KCM Naruto did perceive V2 Ei's Shunshin meaning it didn't escape his line of sight. You can definitely argue this was because Naruto was moving away from Ei, but that doesn't erfute the fact that he still perceived his Shunshin.

 And there's that feat where Juubidara perceived Sasuke's Shunshin before getting chopped in half.

 That's really all of the ones at the top of my head, so I'm sure there may be more.


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## Turrin (Apr 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Link removed
> 
> Sasuke managed to perceive Killer Bee's movements and reacted perfectly despite Bee using Shunshin.
> 
> ...


That was jumping speed not Shunshin.



> Link removed
> 
> We know Ei uses Shunshin to boost the power to his due to his sheer momentum yet Minato reacted to it using Hiraishin. Minato had to have perceived Ei's Shunshin if he was able to dodge it.


Minato didn't perceive Ei's, he react to Ei's punch after the Shunshin was completed



> Link removed


He didn't even use Shunshin there



> Link removed
> 
> Here, Madara clearly was able to detect Ei's movements despite him using his max speed Shunshin.


Again reacted to the attack after Shunshin



> Link removed
> 
> Here, Suigetsu made a statement to him in regards to Ei's speed while Ei even began his assault meaning he did perceive Ei's Shunshin, same as Jugo or he wouldn't have perceived and reacted to Ei's strike at the last second as Ei still continued his Shunshin.


Assuming he even used Shunshin there, they were reacting to his speed after the Shunshin, but it doesn't even seem like he used it in the first place.



> Link removed
> 
> KCM Naruto did perceive V2 Ei's Shunshin meaning it didn't escape his line of sight. You can definitely argue this was because Naruto was moving away from Ei, but that doesn't erfute the fact that he still perceived his Shunshin.


Again react to the punch after Shunshin



> And there's that feat where Juubidara perceived Sasuke's Shunshin before getting chopped in half.


Again he perceived the movements after Shunshin, though he's got god sensing, so I wouldn't be surprised if he could sense Shunshin, anyway. Basically Juubi hosts and god characters are hardly representative of what's normal.
Link removed


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## Alex Payne (Apr 11, 2015)

> Body Flicker Technique (瞬身の術, Shunshin no Jutsu)
> Ninjutsu, D-rank, Supplementary
> Users: Gaara, Hatake Kakashi, et al
> 
> ...



Shunshin is a short controlled burst of speed. Fast people's shunshin is faster in terms of movement speed not because they activate it quicker but because they are simply faster. Kid Kakashi could move too fast for his own perception to handle. Which should logically be faster than his shunshin at the time. Yet Minato and Iwa-nin were able to follow his movements just fine. P2 Sasuke used Sharingan perception to make his extremely fast shunshin viable. Raikage enhances his reflexes so that he can effectively operate when using his own crazy shunshin. Hell, Raikage left after-images because of the speed of his best shunshin.

People can temporarily achieve great speeds by pumping chakra up. Problem lies in control. Shunshin is simply one way of controlling it. Achieving the best possible speed which your reflexes/perception are able handle. I hope you don't want to argue that 7th Gate Gai physical movements are easier to follow than some scrub's shunshin.


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## Turrin (Apr 11, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Shunshin is a short controlled burst of speed. Fast people's shunshin is faster in terms of movement speed not because they activate it quicker but because they are simply faster. Kid Kakashi could move too fast for his own perception to handle. Which should logically be faster than his shunshin at the time. Yet Minato and Iwa-nin were able to follow his movements just fine. P2 Sasuke used Sharingan perception to make his extremely fast shunshin viable. Raikage enhances his reflexes so that he can effectively operate when using his own crazy shunshin. Hell, Raikage left after-images because of the speed of his best shunshin.
> 
> People can temporarily achieve great speeds by pumping chakra up. Problem lies in control. Shunshin is simply one way of controlling it. Achieving the best possible speed which your reflexes/perception are able handle. I hope you don't want to argue that 7th Gate Gai physical movements are easier to follow than some scrub's shunshin.


There are faster Shunshin than others, that is clear. Though I don't think base-movement speed impacts Shunshin's speed as much as the quantity of chakra used to vitalize the body. Ether way though that two Shunshin always cover the same distance in the same amount of time is not the point i'm making.

The point i'm making is none of the none "God-Tier" characters can follow any Shunshin's speed with their eyes alone, and the reason why say Genin-Sasuke can't simple escape someone's LOS, is not due to characters being able to follow his Shunshin, but it's due to them blitzing him before he can react to activate Shunshin, reacting to the move he makes after he uses Shunshin, or him not being able to move out of someone's LOS in a single Shunshin. 

Basically my point is Shunshin itself is too fast to be followed with the naked eye, no matter who the user is, but it's a D-Rank skill, because moving to fast from point-A to point-B for the enemy to visually follow really doesn't help that much if the skill can't be activated quick enough to evade an enemies attack, preempt the enemy or move far enough to escape the enemy's LOS; and if the successive attack is not fast enough to hit the enemy it's all pointless.

So Genin-Sasuke trying to use Shunshin against Itachi is pointless, as Itachi just beheads him before he can even activate the technique. Hebi-Sasuke using Shunshin against Itachi, was more effective, but he couldn't stay out of Itachi's LOS effectively, because he couldn't Shunshin far enough in a single Shunshin, and Itachi caught him between Shunshin. 

Base-Killer-B on the other hand can Shunshin a mountain range, so despite B's Shunshin being slower than Ei's Shunshin, if he has warning that Itachi is going to use Amaterasu, he's still going to be able to Shunshin outside Itachi's LOS no problem before the Jutsu goes off. W/o warning though, not so much, because he won't be able to react to Amaterasu's release the way Ei did, to activate Shunshin in time.

Shisui I give the benefit of the doubt that being a world famous utilizer of Shunshin, can Shunshin over a large enough distance to escape someone's LOS, and w/ Sharingan he'll see the build up of chakra giving him warning that an MS Tech is about to be utilized, thus he won't have to react to the release like Ei. So like in the B scenario with the preemptive warning I imagine Shisui can use a large enough Shunshin to escape Itachi's LOS, before Amaterasu goes off.


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## Rocky (Apr 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> K show a Shinobi intercepting someone mid Shunshin, and I'll concede the point. But to my knowledge that has never happened in the entire series, and it's always the person reacting to the successive attack, not the Shunshin itself.



You see, you're creating an argument that is impossible to counter because of how unclear Shunshin is. Kai gave you scans, and you were just like "nah, not Shunshin." 

You wan't characters? Fine. _Suigetsu_ reacted to A's flicker speed. No, it was not the follow up attack, because A wasn't yet in the range to actually hit Jugo _and thus was still traveling there with shunshin._

Then there was Sasuke who managed to visually track v2 A momentarily. A did leave Sasuke's vision (because A moves faster than Sasuke can turn his head), but if Sauce couldn't follow at all, then he wouldn't have _looked in the direction than A took off in._

There's also characters like Obito & Naruto who were able to pass through/avoid A mid-flicker. How do we know it was in the middle of Shunshin? Because when A missed these characters, he kept going into the object behind them. If you punch someone and miss, you aren't going to keep going for a few feet unless you were running at while delivering the blow, which is what A was doing in the form of Shunshin.



> Deidara isn't jumping out of the way of any Shunshin. He reacts to Sasuke's successive attack [sorta of]. If Ei's in the same position as Sasuke, than Deidara wouldn't react to Ei, because Ei's successive attack after his Shunshin will be faster than Sasuke's



Any evidence that Sasuke's Shunshin was over? I'm just wondering if you know something I don't.


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## Turrin (Apr 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You see, you're creating an argument that is impossible to counter because of how unclear Shunshin is. Kai gave you scans, and you were just like "nah, not Shunshin."


Someone stopping someone else when using Shunshin is a clear request. Instead what i'm given is instances where Shunshin is ether not utilized or someone is reacting to the attack launched after Shunshin. And it's not hard for Kishi to show what i'm asking for if he really wanted the take away to be that characters can visually follow Shunshin. He could very easily show Ei disappear with Shunshin and than in the next panel Sasuke have his sword through his gut. Or Itachi using Shunshin and another character in the next panel grabbing his neck and slamming him to the ground. There is a million ways that Kishi could have conveyed that characters can visual see a person's Shunshin, but he never once did. That's not the manga not being straight forward enough, it's the manga outright not showing any evidence for the opposing case, over the course of 700 chapters, with Shunshin being a Jutsu that was introduced at the start of Part I.

Though of course if one can provide examples where Kishi does indicate such, I will gladly concede the point.



> You wan't characters? Fine. _Suigetsu_ reacted to A's flicker speed. No, it was not the follow up attack, because A wasn't yet in the range to actually hit Jugo _and thus was still traveling there with shunshin._


Here's my issue, what indicates Ei is using Shunshin there rather than Ei just charging Taka?



> Then there was Sasuke who managed to visually track v2 A momentarily. A did leave Sasuke's vision (because A moves faster than Sasuke can turn his head), but if Sauce couldn't follow at all, then he wouldn't have looked in the direction than A took off in.


Sasuke was looking for where Ei went, and he looked in the entirely wrong direction as we see on the next page:
_Suigetsu_

So that is another demonstration of someone not being able to follow Shunshin.



> There's also characters like Obito & Naruto who were able to pass through/avoid A mid-flicker.


Obito ether react to Ei's punch after Shunshin or was intangible to start with. However we know Obito did not see Ei when he used Shunshin, considering Obito was surprised when Ei appeared right in-front of his face after using Shunshin, hence the "!".
_Suigetsu_

Naruto reacted to Ei's punch after he used Shunshin.



> . How do we know it was in the middle of Shunshin? Because when A missed these characters, he kept going into the object behind them.


I'm not saying they loose all the momentum of their Shunshin when they launch their next attack, i'm saying they slow down from the blistering speeds of Shunshin to launch their next strike. So with some momentum carried over from Shunshin and Ei's own great physical/speed strength, that more than explains why his attack continued to go crashing through the wall after Naruto and Obito evade it.

But we clearly see a difference in speed when using Shunshin and when they launch their follow up attack. When Ei uses Shunshin Obito completely looses track of him and Kishi indicates his shock that Ei is now in-front of his face with an "!". However Obito can see the follow up punch. In the Naruto example same thing, he only see's Raikage when he comes out of his Shunshin to launch his punch, it's at that time Naruto begins to react and it's why Ei's fist gets so close, only for Naruto to than finishing activating his Shunshin to escape.



> Any evidence that Sasuke's Shunshin was over? I'm just wondering if you know something I don't.


Again Sasuke uses Shunshin and Deidara looses track off him. Again Deidara shows surprise that Sasuke is now right in-front of his face. Again Deidara react to Sasuke swinging his sword after Shunshin.

Same reason Deidara looses track of Sasuke when he uses Shunshin here, but than reacts to his successive sword slash w/ the C1 model:
_Suigetsu_

Same reason why from the very beginning of the manga, when Haku uses Shunshin, Sasuke looses track of him and than is shocked that Haku is right in-front of him, and than proceeds to react to Haku's strike coming out of Shunshin:
_Suigetsu_


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## Alex Payne (Apr 11, 2015)

Except Sasuke didn't finish his Shunshin before cutting Tobi. He finished moving after his sword went through. How do you think that attack works? Sasuke moves shunshin-speed, then slows down to non-shunshin speed and then cuts his foe and then still moves some more? Deidara saw him moving and made a comment about that. Comment about his shunshin speed. Tobi also said the exact same thing - shunshin is too fast.


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## Turrin (Apr 11, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Except Sasuke didn't finish his Shunshin before cutting Tobi. He finished moving after his sword went through. How do you think that attack works? Sasuke moves shunshin-speed, then slows down to non-shunshin speed and then cuts his foe and then still moves some more?


Here's how it works. Sasuke uses Shunshin, than release Shunshin causing him to slow down [but not stop moving], and than launches his attack. This is the reason why KCM-Naruto crashes into the wall and twists his ankle, when he hits Kisame, because he didn't release Shunshin quick enough, so he didn't slow down adequately enough when coming out of Shunshin and hits the wall much harder than he should have. While on the other hand someone like Minato uses Shunshin to save baby Naruto, but release Shunshin in time where he slows down enough to not slam to hard into the wall.



> Deidara saw him moving and made a comment about that. Comment about his shunshin speed. Tobi also said the exact same thing - shunshin is too fast.


Sorry, but I don't see any indication that they could follow Sasuke's Shunshin. Tobi says Sasuke Shunshin is too fast. Deidara says he'll use C1 to keep up with Sasuke's movements, and how does he do that, well he uses C1 to react to Sasuke after Sasuke has released his Shunshin is slowing down, while when Sasuke is using Shunshin he lost track of him allow Sasuke to slip behind him.


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## Rocky (Apr 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Someone stopping someone else when using Shunshin is a clear request. Instead what i'm given is instances where Shunshin is ether not utilized or someone is reacting to the attack launched after Shunshin.



You keep saying that without proving anything though.



> Here's my issue, what indicates Ei is using Shunshin there rather than Ei just charging Taka?



I should be asking you what indicates that he _isn't._

A's speed is mainly a product of his Shunshin, and we get the same artistic depiction of it every time it's used. The fist a few inches from the face.



> Sasuke was looking for where Ei went, and he looked in the entirely wrong direction as we see on the next page...





Sasuke turned to his left, and A moved to his right. Since the two were standing directly across from one another, that would mean that Sasuke turned his head to the correct direction.

That scan you linked is showing a Sasuke that lost track of A after the Raikage had left his vision. Sasuke relocated him after Enton stopped A's attack.



> Obito ether react to Ei's punch after Shunshin or was intangible to start with. However we know Obito did not see Ei when he used Shunshin, considering Obito was surprised when Ei appeared right in-front of his face after using Shunshin, hence the "!".



But A _wasn't_ in Obito's face when Obito noticed him. A was still on his way there. We don't know A's position when Obito first notices him (the panel is just Obito with the exclamation), but in the following panels we see A getting closer to Obito, meaning he wasn't _already there_ when Obito made the exclamation.



> I'm not saying they loose all the momentum of their Shunshin when they launch their next attack, i'm saying they slow down from the blistering speeds of Shunshin to launch their next strike. So with some momentum carried over from Shunshin and Ei's own great physical/speed strength, that more than explains why his attack continued to go crashing through the wall after Naruto and Obito evade it.



When Shunshin ends, the momentum from it _does not_ carry over. A doesn't keep going against Madara, Sasuke didn't keep going against Naruto back in the beginning of Part II, Gai didn't keep going against Kisame, etc. 

When characters keep going, it tends to be because their Shunshin isn't yet over.



> But we clearly see a difference in speed when using Shunshin and when they launch their follow up attack. When Ei uses Shunshin Obito completely looses track of him and Kishi indicates his shock that Ei is now in-front of his face with an "!". However Obito can see the follow up punch. In the Naruto example same thing, he only see's Raikage when he comes out of his Shunshin to launch his punch, it's at that time Naruto begins to react and it's why Ei's fist gets so close, only for Naruto to than finishing activating his Shunshin to escape.



Lose track? What gave you that idea? An exclamation mark typically indicates surprise, not confusion.

What's to say that Naruto & Minato weren't keeping track of A the entire time, and the reason that they weren't able to avoid until A was but an inch away is because A is so fast that by the time the dodge reflex kicked in, A was just that close?



> Again Sasuke uses Shunshin and Deidara looses track off him. Again Deidara shows surprise that Sasuke is now right in-front of his face. Again Deidara react to Sasuke swinging his sword after Shunshin.



Again, when does Deidara lose track of Sasuke during the frontal blitz? He is surprised at how fat Sasuke is. There's nothing there suggesting that Deidara lost track of him..

It would be pretty interesting if that exclamation mark was there to show surprise at Sasuke popping up in Deidara's face, considering that Sasuke _wasn't even in melee range_ of Deidara when Deidara commented on Sasuke's speed. ck


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## ARGUS (Apr 12, 2015)

we have one guy who got solod by Danzo and ended up having his eye stolen, 
where as the same man was shitting bricks the instant he saw Itachi, and never laid a hand on sasuke after just a warning from a 14 year old kid, 
just goes to shw the difference 

shisui however is definitely above itachi when it comes genjutsu, 
and KA is probably one of the strongest genjutsus in the manga so if he has that in a 1v1 fight,, he could beat pretty much any non god shinobi barring the perfect jins


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 12, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It was shown against Hebi Sasuke and V2 Ei that Amaterasu doesn't just appear on a focal point, it actually travels to it's target. That's why Amaterasu traveled towards a fodder Samurai despite the obvious target being Ei and also the reason why Hebi Sasuke could outrun Amaterasu for a few seconds. Kishimoto even drew the "motion" lines indicating that Amaterasu was moving towards Hebi Sasuke and not just appearing instantly.
> 
> very first panel
> 
> ...



I am talking about its formation. Also my scans debunk anything you'r trying to say here, so it is a moot point that you brought up.


@ Turrin

Dude shunshin speed isn't a constant value.

It also isn't teleportation so obviously the shunshin movement can be seen with the naked eye. It depends on who is moving and who is looking.


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## Kai (Apr 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> That effect isn't Shunshin, its Sasuke seeing Naruto in bullet time.


The bullet time perception is on the next page. On the scan provided, Naruto uses Shunshin right towards Sasuke and Sasuke sees the whole thing.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Not all Shunshins are equal, but that's a matter of chakra as I previously explained. Reflexes matter when it comes to activation and timing.


If not all Shunshin are equal, then not all Shunshin are impossible by anyone to see. It's that simple.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Because they plan their trajectory, activation, and release of Shunshin.


Skills that would precisely allow them to react to Shunshin, whether foreign or their own. It's all relative to each other.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Space-Time is instant movement accross space. Shunshin isn't instant, but it's too fast for the eyes to follow.


Shunshin *is* movement. Shunshin is too fast for the eyes to follow despite the fact there exist powers of heightened visual perception created especially to see those movements?



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> No because the faster shinobi will activate his quicker. It also depends on distance traveled. If the distance is large than the Shunshin will be faster, because it will have to travel a larger distance in the same amount of time.
> 
> Ei is better than Sasuke with Shunshin, because his react time is better than Sasuke's and has more chakra to pump into the Jutsu than Sasuke.


I'm sorry, but at this point you have yet to prove anything at all. 

You can play talk about many things A is greater at, but it still results in the fact that A's flicker itself is faster than Sasuke. When characters refer to A's speed, physical movement is the subject matter even if it's not limited to reflexes and chakra considerations. 



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> But if we have two shinobi with equalized reaction time, chakra, and experience using Shunshin than those Shinobi should perform the same with Shunshin


That's why I said your statement was a poor generalization for all shinobi. It sounded more like you were referring to more specific cases.


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## Lawrence777 (Apr 13, 2015)

I wouldn't necessarily say Shisui is superior to Itachi with respect to genjutsu. I believe it's more accurate to say Shisui had the most hyped MS-level genjutsu technique.

Itachi's diversity with respect to his ability to ensnare targets(eye contact,finger,crow,Izanami) is for instance superior to Shisui's unknown(and maybe only eye contact-limited) methodology of genjutsu application.

I think the likelihood of ensnaring a target(such as Troll Kage's smell-based genjutsu being nigh inevadeable and easily applied) plays a significant role in how strong a genjutsu user is. 

Kind of like the value of a queen in check is 0 despite how strong it may be.

I'm don't think shisui would of been as successful or strong as Itachi but this is a small vignette of why.


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## Akitō (Apr 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Though of course if one can provide examples where Kishi does indicate such, I will gladly concede the point.



Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but here Naruto tries to shunshin past A and is intercepted mid-way through.


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