# Ulquiorra and Ichigo vs Lancer (fate/night)



## Dariustwinblade (May 22, 2010)

Battle in Hunco Mundo.


Senairo 1: IC

Senairo 2:Blood Lusted



If rape H2 and R2 can be used.


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## Riverlia (May 22, 2010)

Any of the two can survive without a heart?


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## fullrefund (May 22, 2010)

Actually Ichigo in h2 mode didn't had any hearth(Ulquiora had made a big hole around there)... Further more he have rapid regeneration that regenarate his organs. Also it's a 2 vs 1. after the first time he use it his openent would try to deny the use of that ability and if he is unlucky he would use it on Ichigo first and still have two oponent to fight.


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## Rene (May 22, 2010)

fullrefund said:


> Actually Ichigo in h2 mode didn't had any hearth(Ulquiora had made a big hole around there)... Further more he have rapid regeneration that regenarate his organs. Also it's a 2 vs 1. after the first time he use it his openent would try to deny the use of that ability and if he is unlucky he would use it on Ichigo first and still have two oponent to fight.



Gae Bolg murders Ulquiora, they can't 'deny' the use of Gae Bolg because neither Ichigo nor Ulquiora have shown any form of casuality manipulation. It will always hit the heart.

H2 Ichigo he uses Gae Bolg to deny his regeneration and then uses his runes to burn him to a crisp.


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## Dariustwinblade (May 22, 2010)

Uluquiorra has no HEART.


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## Cypher0120 (May 22, 2010)

Bad matchup for Lancer. His Hax isn't as useful here...though the thrown Gae Bolg is likely to do a lot of damage. Or he suicide rune explosions them.


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## Xelloss (May 22, 2010)

You mean a spear that always hits and negates regeneration is bad vs them?


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## Rene (May 22, 2010)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Uluquiorra has no HEART.



Ulq doesn't understand the concept that is heart as Ichigo and Orihime describe it. By his own admission (that he can't regen organs) he still possesses normal organs.

Even if you want to denie that, he pierces Ulq with Gae bolg and uses his runes then turns intangible until Ulq is vanquished. Rinse and repeat with Ichigo.

Lancer should outlast since he can turn intangible. It'd just end up being a long battle.


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## Crimson King (May 22, 2010)

Lancer uses Gae Bolg on both of them, killing their regen and possibly killing them as well.

Then he stabs them to death.


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## Raigen (May 22, 2010)

You do realize that Hollows and Shinigami are both intangible beings, yes? Also, Hollow-Hole in Ulq's chest indicates he has no heart in that location. Nnoitra's hole is through his head (which means he has a whole section of brain that doesn't exist, yet he functions). Gae Bolg would work on Ichigo initially, but it'd trigger H2 form an then Lancer is just boned. After that, either one attacks and Lancer gets one-shotted to death.


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## Crimson King (May 22, 2010)

Raigen said:


> *You do realize that Hollows and Shinigami are both intangible beings, yes?*



Yes, they're so intangible a telephone pole can hit them.





> Also, Hollow-Hole in Ulq's chest indicates he has no heart in that location. Nnoitra's hole is through his head (which means he has a whole section of brain that doesn't exist, yet he functions).


Doesn't matter, Gae Bolg still kills his regen.



> Gae Bolg would work on Ichigo initially, but it'd trigger H2 form an then Lancer is just boned. After that, either one attacks and Lancer gets one-shotted to death.




lolno.

Pierced heart + no regen = dead Ichigo.


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## Red (May 22, 2010)

Lancer loses in my opinion.

V2 Ulq has the advantage, not only can he spam those black ceros, he can also occasionally use that crazy ass spear thing and has the flight advantage, plus he can live without his organs. I'll also give it to Ichigo if he goes Hollow V2. I'm sure he has no heart (just a hole there) and he can match V2 Ulq in power.


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## Crimson King (May 22, 2010)

Red said:


> Lancer loses in my opinion.
> 
> V2 Ulq has the advantage, not only can he spam those black ceros, he can also occasionally use that crazy ass spear thing and has the flight advantage, plus he can live without his organs. I'll also give it to Ichigo if he goes Hollow V2. I'm sure he has no heart (just a hole there) and he can match V2 Ulq in power.



Ulq has bad aim with his spear.

He actually can't live without his organs. That's how he died. he could regen everything but his organs, and H2 Ichigo tore those up.

H2 might be able to take it if he can hit Lancer with an attack.

But doesn't Lancer move faster than Archer can see?


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## Red (May 22, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Ulq has bad aim with his spear.
> 
> He actually can't live without his organs. That's how he died. he could regen everything but his organs, and H2 Ichigo tore those up.
> 
> ...


But moving fast isn't going to help with an opponent with AoE attacks and who can fly. Seriously, all H2 ichigo or Ulq has to do is throw an attack in the general direction and miss then have the AoE make up for that.

The two problems I have with Lancer is that he has no durability feats I can think of, since very few people could tag him or land a decent hit.

He would have had a good chance if it was only Ichigo or H2 Ulq but it's two against one and his casuality reversing spear is effective against one person at a time. He could use his big ass throw which is anti-army but if he misses he'd be weaponless until he gets it back making him open for a counter ttack.


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## Crimson King (May 22, 2010)

Can't he just go intangible to avoid the blast?

Luckily they both don't start in their most powerful forms.


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## Rene (May 22, 2010)

Raigen said:


> You do realize that Hollows and Shinigami are both intangible beings, yes? Also, Hollow-Hole in Ulq's chest indicates he has no heart in that location. Nnoitra's hole is through his head (which means he has a whole section of brain that doesn't exist, yet he functions). Gae Bolg would work on Ichigo initially, but it'd trigger H2 form an then Lancer is just boned. After that, either one attacks and Lancer gets one-shotted to death.



I wasn't argueing about the fact they can't be hurt by non-conceptual weapons. I was argueing about their ability to turn into true intangibles to conserve their mana usage, walk through objects, etc.

I'd say that he should be able to wear them down, sure their flight might be a problem, but Lancer has a lot of tricks up his sleeve as well.


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## Red (May 22, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Can't he just go intangible to avoid the blast?
> 
> Luckily they both don't start in their most powerful forms.


You're right, going intangible would help him avoid the blast and if they start in their base forms Ichigo eats a spear to the heart before he says "Bankai" and the only real opponent after that would be Ulq.

Is there a way to scale the damage that The Spear of Striking Death Flight does? You think he can use it against Ulq?


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## God (May 22, 2010)

Rene said:


> Ulq doesn't understand the concept that is heart as Ichigo and Orihime describe it. By his own admission (that he can't regen organs) he still possesses normal organs.



No he literally has no heart, because there is a hole where his heart is supposed to be. Kubo is advancing the theme with Ulquiorra's R2 physical desing, he has NO heart.



> Even if you want to denie that, he pierces Ulq with Gae bolg and uses his runes then turns intangible until Ulq is vanquished. Rinse and repeat with Ichigo.



And he can do this against two hypersonic characters each with citybusting power? Lol.



> Lancer should outlast since he can turn intangible. It'd just end up being a long battle.



They speedblitz.


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## Crimson King (May 22, 2010)

Lancer is hypersonic as well.


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## Red (May 22, 2010)

Ulq has a pretty fucked up body, no heart, left eye can be crushed and probably no penis for not wanting to ravish Orihime.

Edit:

You know we're focusing too much on Lancer's speed and heart piercing thing. He has other skills and the one that will help him the most is "protection against arrows". Which automatically makes certain projectiles not work on him.


> B: Can track any kind of thrown weapon with eyes and deal with them as long as the shooter is within field of vision. However, does not extend to direct attacks from super long range or area of effect attacks that cover a large area. (Lancer)


Though there are restrictions like the ones listed, plus since it works by him reacting to the sound and feeling the change in wind anything faster than sound or sound speed would by pass that protection and he'd have to dodge.

I think that base Ichigo's getsuga won't do anything and depending on how Ulq shoots his ceros (wide radius or just the normal blast like all the other Espada) then it won't effect him. It is probably when they start cranking up the heat that'd he'll have to doge manually.

IMO Lancer beats Ichigo either before bankai or during bankai. With his mask on Lancer would probably beat him with difficulty if it was a one on one fight but he also has Ulq to deal.

Here's how I see it:

Base Ulq + Base Ichigo vs Lancer: Ichigo dies and it can go either way with ulq and lancer.

Anything above base ulq vs Lancer: lancer loses unless he uses his intangibility wisely.


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## God (May 22, 2010)

But can he keep up with two characters of equal or above speed at the same time, who are capable of city-sized AoE's? Doubtful.



Red said:


> Ulq has a pretty fucked up body, no heart, left eye can be crushed and probably *no penis for not wanting to ravish Orihime.*



lol


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## Crimson King (May 22, 2010)

Cubey said:


> But can he keep up with two characters of equal or above speed at the same time, who are capable of city-sized AoE's? Doubtful.
> 
> 
> 
> lol



He doesn't really have to. he can turn invisible + intangible, then kill Ichigo with Gae Bolg, go into spirit form again, then hit Ulquiorra with the thrown version.


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## Knight (May 22, 2010)

Ichigo did a city size attack, when? Also I think the realm had something to do with the attack power increase like Uryū Ishida theorized.


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## God (May 22, 2010)

But Ichigo/Ulquiorra can sense him, and Ulquiorra can counter with Gae Bolg with Cero or the two stronger versions, or even Lanza Del Relampago. I doubt Ulquiorra would just let Ichigo get killed, who can take the time to transform into H2, and by then, they can rape.



Knight said:


> Ichigo did a city size attack, when? Also I think the realm had something to do with the attack power increase like Uryū Ishida theorized.



They're fighting in Hueco Mundo so what's your point.

Ichigo can destroy a city with his Cero based on powerscaling.


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## Crimson King (May 22, 2010)

Cubey said:


> But Ichigo/Ulquiorra can sense him, and Ulquiorra can counter with Gae Bolg with Cero or the two stronger versions, or even Lanza Del Relampago. I doubt Ulquiorra would just let Ichigo get killed, who can take the time to transform into H2, and by then, they can rape.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



IIRC Servants cannot be detected when they're in spirit form.

And how will Ichigo know how to transform?


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## God (May 22, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> IIRC Servants cannot be detected when they're in spirit form.



Ok.



> And how will Ichigo know how to transform?



Because he's done it before, and he gains access to his previous forms  Plus, he's bloodlusted.


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## Big Bοss (May 22, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> And how will Ichigo know how to transform?



He would ask Ulquiorra to make a hole in his chest again then is H2 time 

Now seriously:

If it is Ulquiorra base Vs Lancer I will give it to Ulquiorra with difficulty, if he is release he wins quite handly.

If it is Base/bankai/Hollow Ichigo Vs Lancer I will give it to Lancer the first handly the other two with difficulty and if it is H2 he rapes the shit out of him.


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## Crimson King (May 22, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Because he's done it before, and he gains access to his previous forms  Plus, he's bloodlusted.



That's like saying Luffy can turn into Nightmare Luffy anytime he wants


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## God (May 22, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> That's like saying Luffy can turn into Nightmare Luffy anytime he wants



Ulquiorra make a hole in his chest.


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## Crimson King (May 22, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Ulquiorra make a hole in his chest.



That might be a bad idea for him. Lancer can just turn into spirit form and wait for H2 Ichigo to start attacking the nearest thing.


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## God (May 22, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> That might be a bad idea for him. Lancer can just turn into spirit form and wait for H2 Ichigo to start attacking the nearest thing.



Why would H2 Ichigo attack the nearest thing? He's fighting Lancer and Ulquiorra is on his side.


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## Crimson King (May 22, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Why would H2 Ichigo attack the nearest thing? He's fighting Lancer and Ulquiorra is on his side.



Remember what happened to those who were on his side in the manga?


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## God (May 22, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Remember what happened to those who were on his side in the manga?



When they confronted or opposed him, AFTER he became H2.


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## Riverlia (May 22, 2010)

Gae Bolg is cheap as hell, but it's not the only thing Lancer has
Lancer has access to Rune magic, one of the confirmed effect being:
1. a fire rune
2. power boosting runes (he can boost his throwing lance to A+)
3. combination of all protection Runes can protect him against A/A+ level NP
He also has battle continuation (can still fight for around a while after losing half the body or a heart) and the skill to disengage and restart battle (ideal for hit and run tactic)

that said
Lancer best tactic here would probably kill Ichigo with Gae Bolg before he turn Hollow
Then play hit and run on the remaining one
What happen after that is up to who make a mistake first I guess


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## Crimson King (May 22, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> Gae Bolg is cheap as hell but it's not the only thing Lancer has
> Lancer has access to Rune magic, one of the confirmed effect being:
> 1. a fire rune
> 2. power boosting runes (he can boost his throwing lance to A+)
> ...



Probably not Ulquiorra. His emo face is not gonna give anything away.


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## God (May 22, 2010)

So H2 Ichigo and R2 Ulquiorra win?


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## Big Bοss (May 22, 2010)

Cubey said:


> So H2 Ichigo and R2 Ulquiorra win?



If they are H2 and R2 yeah quite handly, in fact either of them 1 Vs 1 win too.


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## Dariustwinblade (May 22, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> He doesn't really have to. he can turn invisible + intangible, then kill Ichigo with Gae Bolg, go into spirit form again, then hit Ulquiorra with the thrown version.



You do realize hollows and shinigami are in spirit form. And they too are Invisible+Intangible.

Oh! And before you post the telephone pole incident, the hogoyku explanation says hi, Rukia was near chad.


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## Crimson King (May 22, 2010)

Dariustwinblade said:


> You do realize hollows and shinigami are in spirit form. And they too are Invisible+Intangible.



No, they're just invisible. Being invisible =/=spirit form of Servants.



> Oh! And before you post the telephone pole incident, the *hogoyku explanation says hi, Rukia was near chad.*



That doesn't prove shit.


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## Crimson King (May 22, 2010)

Cubey said:


> So H2 Ichigo and R2 Ulquiorra win?



If they start in their h4x forms, probably.


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## God (May 22, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> If they start in their h4x forms, probably.



And if not? How would they lose when Ulquiorra can simply go R2, and has the speed to do it while keeping Lancer on his toes?


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## Big Bοss (May 22, 2010)

Cubey said:


> And if not? How would they lose when Ulquiorra can simply go R2, and has the speed to do it while keeping Lancer on his toes?



Well Ulquiorra wouldn't have any problems but if Ichigo starts in base then Gae Bolg woud kill him for sure but Ulquiorra would win.

But if Ichigo starts in H2 or can go H2 before Gae Bolg hits him then there wouldn't be any problem.


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## Crimson King (May 22, 2010)

Cubey said:


> And if not? How would they lose when Ulquiorra can simply go R2, and has the speed to do it while keeping Lancer on his toes?



If they do not start in their h4x forms, Lancer Gae Bolgs Ichigo right at the start and uses hit & run on Ulquiorra. He can do this by using thespirit form tactic I posted earlier.

Lancer would probably get nuked right away in the other scenario.


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## God (May 22, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> If they do not start in their h4x forms, Lancer Gae Bolgs Ichigo right at the start and uses hit & run on Ulquiorra. He can do this by using thespirit form tactic I posted earlier.
> 
> Lancer would probably get nuked right away in the other scenario.



Ulquiorra would defend Ichigo though.


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## Riverlia (May 22, 2010)

> Ulquiorra would defend Ichigo though.


No one can defend himself from Gae Bolg without a hax barrier like Avalon, God Hand or Koh Ou Yoku or high luck (no, plot armor does not equal luck, Shirou had plot armor, his Servant version has rotten luck - E rank) let alone defending someone else.
Gae Bolg make it so 'you got pierced in the heart' is already ascertained, and thrusting the lance is mere formality.
I other word, for Gae Bolg, pierced in the heart is the cause, and thrusting the lance is the result


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## God (May 22, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> No one can defend himself from Gae Bolg without a hax barrier like Avalon, God Hand or Koh Ou Yoku or high luck (no, plot armor does not equal luck, Shirou had plot armor, his Servant version has rotten luck - E rank) let alone defending someone else.
> Gae Bolg make it so 'you got pierced in the heart' is already ascertained, and thrusting the lance is mere formality.
> I other word, for Gae Bolg, pierced in the heart is the cause, and thrusting the lance is the result



But if he stabs Ichigo in the heart he'll just activate H2.


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## Big Bοss (May 22, 2010)

Cubey said:


> But if he stabs Ichigo in the heart he'll just activate H2.



Haven't thought about this......

you have a point because no heart Ichigo = H2 so yeah they still win but with the difference that Ichigo doesn't die.


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## Raigen (May 22, 2010)

Hollow/Shinigami are intangible to normal world items/people. It's the same as being a spirit. Normal people can't see, hear, touch, feel, or interact with them in any way. Not unless they possess the spiritual sense to do so. Tatsuki only began to develop that after a while from being around Ichigo, Orihime, Chad and Rukia and the best she managed was a mirage-like outline to a Hollow. They're intangible until they want to be, ie when fighting because their reiatsu is strong enough that it can cause physical damage.

Ghosts/spirits in Bleach can pass through anything/everything unhindered and have only the most minute of reishi, not enough to even manipulate. Shinigami and Hollows are different. If you wanted to use the Slayers Mazoku definition courtesy of Lina Inverse, they're like High-Density Ghosts. Their reishi is such that they can physically interact with the world at will, and powerful reishi as belonging to higher rank Shinigami and Hollow/Arrancar can adversely affect the living world, which is why Lieutenant rank and higher Shinigami always have restrictions and seals placed on them.

Also, Lancer is not going to be able to get off a Gae Bolg and then immediately go into spirit form without being blitzraped by either of the combatants. Lancer just isn't that fast in comparison. Before Lancer can even being his idiotic boasting, this is gonna happen;


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## skiboydoggy (May 22, 2010)

What the fuck is this? Lancer is at least Mach 14 while moving in straight lines, and Gae Bolg makes it such that it has already dealt damage even before it is thrust/thrown, which incidentally negates regeneration. He kills Ichigo instantly with a thrust Gae Bolg, then kills Ulq with a thrown Gae Bolg.


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## Crimson King (May 22, 2010)

Cubey said:


> But if he stabs Ichigo in the heart he'll just activate H2.



You forget Gae Bolg negates regen, meaning he'll stay dead.


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## Rene (May 23, 2010)

Let me touch on this again: a verse mechanic such as "servants cannot be harmed by non-conceptual weapons" and "Shinigami's cannot be seen/touched by normal people" fall under the equalisation rule.

If you want to use those two mechanics this is an endless draw. So I suggest you keep the equalisation rule.

Lancer's intangible form isn't a verse mechanic, it's a specific ability of servants. It's like using your shikai, bankai, shunpo, sonido and so on.

Also please provide the calcs in the hypersonic thread that show  H2 ichigo and R2 ulq are hypersonic? I went back to check once for Soi Fon to powerscale, but I found none that had been accepted. In the thread for which I tried ot look up the calc we accepted high end supersonic for high tiers and barely hypersonic for top tiers.

This basically makes Ulq and Ichigo not even close to Lancer in speed. Lancer moved as a blur to Archer, but he could easily track Mach 13 arrows. So none of this 'lol speedblitz' stuff. If there's anyone who would be speedblitzing it'd be Lancer. 

Now to end this: Gae Bolg also pierces opponents without a heart. It was used on Kotomine Kirei and he was still pierced in the chest by it and died from it. However, Kotomine is revealed to not have a heart.

Lancer takes all scenarios by wearing them down. He takes it 60/40 vs R2 and H2.

Don't even get me started on the idea that any of them can match Lancer in their base forms.


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## skiboydoggy (May 23, 2010)

Rene said:


> Let me touch on this again: a verse mechanic such as "servants cannot be harmed by non-conceptual weapons" and "Shinigami's cannot be seen/touched by normal people" fall under the equalisation rule.



Nope. Servants cannot be harmed by mundane weapons, it's quite important in-story so you can't just ignore it under equalisation. It's specifically why Souichirou needs Caster around to even damage Servants and why Kiritsugu doesn't even bother fighting them even though he can technically snipe them from forever away.

Shinigami invisibility on the other hand, isn't even a gimmick. It's just part of The Masquerade that ultimately doesn't matter in the story.



> If you want to use those two mechanics this is an endless draw. So I suggest you keep the equalisation rule.



Nah. Shinigami are by definition conceptual anyway, and Servants are by definition strong enough in spirit to see Shinigami. So it's moot.



> Lancer takes all scenarios by wearing them down. He takes it 60/40 vs R2 and H2.



lol no. Thrown Gae Bolg kills both of them. Even if one shot doesn't work, Lancer is fast enough that he can try again several times.


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## Riverlia (May 23, 2010)

uhm, about speed.
 Lancer is hyper sonic (Saber can go hyper sonic already, and she's a slowpoke compare to Lancer)
But he's not faster than mach 13.4
grant, most Servant can track and deflect massively hypersonic attack like Archer's arrows. but Saber still need a command seal to outrun that arrow. And a command seal buff for on definite order like that is quite... err serious business (you can even make a Servant teleport or refill their prana reserve, talk about plot item, wondering why I haven't seem anyone using these buffs in debate?).

Lancer making Archer unable to trace him in close quarter, where the vision range is much more limit. Not to mention, like how sometime we human lose track of a mosquito or fly, lancer can suddenly accelerate very fast (fastest acceleration speed among Servants) to throw Archer's vision off-balance.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 23, 2010)

> And a command seal buff for on definite order like that is quite... err serious business (you can even make a Servant teleport or refill their prana reserve, talk about plot item, wondering why I haven't seem anyone using these buffs in debate?)



Shirou Saber using Barrier of the wind King+Mantra. Stronger Sabers with better stats, barrier of wing kind and prana burst could possibly. But Lancer would be above mach 13, Archer can barely track him despite tracking his own arrow fine. The others are'nt used because the masters are not in the fight unless stated.



> Also please provide the calcs in the hypersonic thread that show H2 ichigo and R2 ulq are hypersonic? I went back to check once for Soi Fon to powerscale, but I found none that had been accepted. In the thread for which I tried ot look up the calc we accepted high end supersonic for high tiers and barely hypersonic for top tiers



That was before the mach 500 moving sword, now you could argue Ichigo aim dodged that in bankai but his Vizard form just reacted to a flurry of such attacks(Think that's what Butou Rejin or whatever that was) was. Well we'll have to see till next chapter to be sure, so depending on how that might go this could go from Lancer rapes to Lancer gets horribly massacred by beings much stronger than Vizard Ichigo. 


Lancer wins for now, thrown Gae Bolg and some Runes could help.


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## Riverlia (May 23, 2010)

> Stronger Sabers with better stats and prana burst could possibly. But Lancer would be above mach 13, Archer can barely track him. The others are'nt used because the masters are not in the fight unless stated.


As for why Lancer can make Archer unable to track him, I already explained: He did it in close quarter, and because he has super fast acceleration to throw other's innated speed estimation off balance, not moving at a constant speed like the arrows.
And uhm, Hrunting does not track the enemy as long as you can track its movement
It track the enemy as long as you can keep aiming at the enemy, Archer's eyes did not follow the arrow, his eyes were following Shirou.
Although to be fair, most Servant demonstrated the ability to deflect projectiles and attack at hypersonic speed


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## Rene (May 23, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> As for why Lancer can make Archer unable to track him, I already explained: He did it in close quarter, and because he has super fast acceleration to throw other's innated speed estimation off balance, not moving at a constant speed like the arrows.



That argument might work if Archer had no knowledge of Lancer.

But Archer had already fought Lancer before and had a good grip on what his opponent's style was while fighting. It's not like it contradicts itself by Archer easily keeping up with Lancer, from what I recall from the fight he just stood there and had no choice but to let Lancer hammer on him.

calling the energy that ghost adsorbs Dying Will Flames

Archer couldn't track Lancer's movements at all or the movements of his spear, the only reason he actually survived is because he used tactics to predict the path of the weapon. 

Archer vs Lancer wasn't a battle, it was a curbstomp in Lancer's favour. He even stated himself that if it hadn't been for what he told Rin he could have finished Archer on the spot. 

Archer couldn't keep track of him at all, couldn't keep up with him and if it had been a standard battle without knowledge Archer would have died in the first second of the battle. That is without using his casuality warping attack.

Lancer is also faster than Saber, although Shirou can keep track of Saber's movements he describes Lancer as 'teleporting around'.

calling the energy that ghost adsorbs Dying Will Flames


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## Riverlia (May 23, 2010)

> That argument might work if Archer had no knowledge of Lancer.
> But Archer had already fought Lancer before and had a good grip on what his opponent's style was while fighting. It's not like it contradicts itself by Archer easily keeping up with Lancer, from what I recall from the fight he just stood there and had no choice but to let Lancer hammer on him.


The sole reason Archer didn't die was because he knew the style before hand, yes
That 'disappearance' can only be neutralized if the opponent has precognition like Saber, or stat to keep up with it. Analytic and prior experience can only help Archer find a way to reduce the lethality, not making Lancer no longer a blur to him.
What that has to do with Lancer sudden acceleration and speed in close quarter can make it impossible for Archer to track, without reaching mach 13.4?



> Archer couldn't track Lancer's movements at all or the movements of his spear, the only reason he actually survived is because he used tactics to predict the path of the weapon.
> 
> Archer couldn't keep track of him at all, couldn't keep up with him and if it had been a standard battle without knowledge Archer would have died in the first second of the battle. That is without using his casuality warping attack.


Yes, Lancer pwn Archer in close combat, just like Archer will pwn him in long range (protection against projectile skill only work with projectiles shot from a medium range source, Archer has 3-4 km range, and that is not necessary his max range ).
Does not make a concrete proof that Lancer was mach 13.4, that's too far more than necessary to make Archer losing sight of him in close quarter combat.



> Lancer is also faster than Saber, although Shirou can keep track of Saber's movements he describes Lancer as 'teleporting around'.


Saber under Shirou and Kiritsugu has B agility, D agility under Sakura, Lancer always had A rank, he's obviously faster, however he has lower top speed than Rider (this kinda cap his speed) per words of god, and less maneuver than Assassin Kojiro 
'teleporting around' just reinforce the fact that he is the Servant with fastest acceleration speed.


I've been lurking here for a while, and AFAIK, the initial misconception that clocked base-Lancer at above mach 13.4 is 'Archer has to track his own mach 13.4 arrow and yet he couldn't track Lancer'
But Archer only has to track the target, not the arrow.
However, all I'm saying is base Lancer isn't necessary mach 13.4
Lancer is fast, that I wont argue against, base Lancer is already hypersonic (he's faster than Saber, who can reach hypersonic with king-wind-bound-field and prana burst; not to mention Archer certainly can track super sonic targets), and he should have speed enhancing rune, and can be boost further with command seal. So yeah...


----------



## Tranquil Fury (May 23, 2010)

> He even stated himself that if it hadn't been for what he told Rin he could have finished Archer on the spot



Not true, pay attention to the narration at the start and near the middle. Plus Archer was leaving only fatal spots open to control the path. Lancer only held back in the sense he did'nt use the NP which he does later on when Archer provokes him. Why would he go for attacks to take off the neck or heart otherwise? I'm not saying Archer>=Lancer or anything nor am I commenting on who would have won. I agree Archer was lucky he never got impaling death(oh lol) and that he fought Lancer before and yes Lancer would have beaten him in CQC. Lancer still acknowledges him as strong for blocking the attacks.



> because he used tactics to predict the path of the weapon



No he controlled the path by leaving only Fatal openings which Lancer would go for. 

"He is controlling where the attacks come, the Knight in red limits the oncoming attack by leaving only fatal openings"



> however he has lower top speed than Rider (this kinda cap his speed) and *less maneuver than Assassin Kojiro* per words of god



I don't remember seeing this on Fuyukiwiki, I saw the Lancer vs Rider interview which you mentioned.


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## Riverlia (May 23, 2010)

> I don't remember seeing this on Fuyukiwiki, I saw the Lancer vs Rider interview which you mentioned.


well, I guess that's a bit of... err, self imposing on my part, and a mistake I overlooked when editing the post(less maneuver was supposed to be added after 'per words of god') because we already knew Lancer has fastest acceleration and Rider has fastest top speed
We know Assassin is the best overall, with A+ rank in agi
That could be good at both, but slightly less than both in their best aspect
But because he can execute an attack that defy logic on skill alone, and was better than Saber in pure swordsmanship despite she is able to defeat an opponent 3 times faster than her in striking speed, I came to the conclusion of his fort being 'maneuver'


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## Tranquil Fury (May 23, 2010)

Even Hassan is ranked A  if I recall does'nt mean he's fast. A+ could be his hand movement during Swallow strike(If this is what you're refering to, I agree). Rider and Lancer are the two fastest in the game as per Nasu and feats, Kojirou is just an amazing swordsman probably due to being in japan and getting a fame boost.


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## Riverlia (May 23, 2010)

Probably, probably not, I'd like to avoid debating this seriously before we have more concrete proofs too, consider that a 'flab on my mind' :'O


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## Raigen (May 23, 2010)

People need to stop overestimating the Servants. One thing forgotten is that Ichigo doesn't have regen. However, when he turns into a full blown Hollow, it's a complete transformation. He's no longer what he was, thus the negging effect of Gae Bolg doesn't apply. Especially since the heart-wound would just spread into a hollow hole. And given Ulq has no heart, the move is useless to begin with and would become useless against Ichigo the moment he goes H2.

Next, aside from Gae Bolg, which has become useless, Lancer doesn't have anything else that's even remotely threatening to these guys. Frankly a Getsuga or Cero would take Lancer out since people are only claiming Lancer's speed when *moving in a straight line*. Which indicates he can't achieve or use that level of speed when moving or defending in any other way. Which is quite useless. And charging straight at either of them would get him blasted right in the face.

As for the Servants intangible form, it's not gonna work. You can claim it's a specific power all you want, it doesn't do shit here since all he's doing is becoming exactly what a Shinigami and Hollow are on a 24/7 basis. In fact, to even try to argue crap like that means Lancer can't even see or detect Ichigo and Ulquiorra, because let's face it, they're invisible/intangible to begin with so why should Lancer know where they are or strike at them at all?


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## Crimson King (May 23, 2010)

ITT:  Raigen not knowing shit


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## skiboydoggy (May 23, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> ITT:  Raigen not knowing shit


In Any Thread: Raigen not knowing shit.

The VN >>>> Raigen's bullshit anyway.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 23, 2010)

> People need to stop overestimating the Servants. One thing forgotten is that Ichigo doesn't have regen



Gae Bolg does'nt work only on beings who have regen , not having regen does'nt make it better when a spear to the heart is the end.



> However, when he turns into a full blown Hollow, it's a complete transformation. He's no longer what he was, thus the negging effect of Gae Bolg doesn't apply. Especially since the heart-wound would just spread into a hollow hole. And given Ulq has no heart, the move is useless to begin with and would become useless against Ichigo the moment he goes H2



Thrown Gae Bolg which unleashes the full curse is there. It's meant to attack multiple opponents, Lancer also has rune magic to raise the rank of his weapon. Being stabbed will still negate regen regardless of how the spear makes contact and Ulq's regen is useless on internal organs, it's just good at growing back limbs he says so himself. 



> Frankly a Getsuga or Cero would take Lancer out since people are only claiming Lancer's speed when moving in a straight line. Which indicates he can't achieve or use that level of speed when moving or defending in any other way. Which is quite useless. And charging straight at either of them would get him blasted right in the face



He could dash across the distance and take off Ulq's head before either character notices him move then throw the spear on H2ichigo.



> In fact, to even try to argue crap like that means Lancer can't even see or detect Ichigo and Ulquiorra, because let's face it, they're invisible/intangible to begin with so why should Lancer know where they are or strike at them at all?



Because he's a Heroic *Spirit*?.



> A phenomenon and type of elemental. Basically, the elemental force of humanity.
> 
> A word that had had also been used to designate those heroes who died on the battlefield. In other words, dead soldiers. But in this case, better thought simply as dead heroes.
> 
> Those who accomplished great deeds during life and became objects of reverence and lore after death. The greatest entities that exist as a force "that protects humanity" and are categorically closer to elementals than wraiths. While elementals are a power that uses "images" created by humans to serve as a container to materialize, what's inside that container for Heroic Spirits is also strung together by the hopes and wishes of mankind. Among the Heroic Spirits, there are those of legends, those that actually existed, and those that remain unknown





> If worshiped or divine Heroic Spirits are natural phenomenon that just happen to be beneficial to humanity, then Counter Guardians are a strictly human phenomenon



They are a category of Elementals a high class mystery. Want to see some below them?



> Apparitions
> - Fuuyuurei
> 
> - Leftover thoughts. Those spirits who are nothing more than the "remaining thoughts" of the deceased. The leftover fragments of a departed soul that tend to group together with other fragments to form a formless entity that has nothing more than the primitive will to live. The kind of ghosts most people tend to think of





> Guardian Spirits
> - Shugoseirei
> 
> Generally, the merging of a human spiritual body to a nature/animal spirit by human means and intent to turn it into a spirit that has human values. Are generally considered lower than regular elementals, but there are cases when they've reached the rank of Holy Spirit. Of course, in order for their spiritual body to materialize, they require Prana that most people don't have






> Elemental
> - Seirei
> 
> The general term for the spiritual bodies of animals and nature that still remain in the world as well as those spirits made and processed by human intention (Guardian Spirits/ Heroic Spirits). Lower-class spirits such as ghosts and apparitions are not included in this category. Manifestations of the will of the planet such as nature spirits, animal spirits, etc. and do not necessarily have a human form. Just like all other spirits, are not normally perceivable



Want to still argue Lancer can't see or touch them when he's much higher mystery than mere ghosts? Even ignoring the equivalency rule they can still be seen by him and harmed.


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## Rene (May 23, 2010)

@Raigen: 



Riverlia said:


> The sole reason Archer didn't die was because he knew the style before hand, yes
> That 'disappearance' can only be neutralized if the opponent has precognition like Saber, or stat to keep up with it. Analytic and prior experience can only help Archer find a way to reduce the lethality, not making Lancer no longer a blur to him.
> What that has to do with Lancer sudden acceleration and speed in close quarter can make it impossible for Archer to track, without reaching mach 13.4?


Archer watched Lancer jump back 100 meters and then crouch ready to sprint. He knew Lancer would be rushing towards him and you argued that Archer would be caught off guard by Lancer's sudden increase in speed even though he knew how fast Lancer could be. Archer was paying attention, not caught off guard and it wasn't right up in his face, there was a distance of about 100 mters between them and he knew Lancer would be making his dash, yet he could still barely keep track of him.

I'm agreeing with you though that his speed is probably more comparable to a sprinter (Short, but very fast bursts) while Rider her speed is probably more similar to a long distance runner.



Tranquil Fury said:


> Not true, pay attention to the narration at the start and near the middle. Plus Archer was leaving only fatal spots open to control the path. Lancer only held back in the sense he did'nt use the NP which he does later on when Archer provokes him. Why would he go for attacks to take off the neck or heart otherwise? I'm not saying Archer>=Lancer or anything nor am I commenting on who would have won. I agree Archer was lucky he never got impaling death(oh lol) and that he fought Lancer before and yes Lancer would have beaten him in CQC. Lancer still acknowledges him as strong for blocking the attacks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1) That was what I meant actually.  He could've easily won by using impaling death. I never stated Lancer wasn't aiming for the kill, if I did then I was wrong. :<

2) Again what I meant, I just phrased it differently.

I'm not trying to downplay Archer's abilities. I'm just stating that he's a tier below Lancer.


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## Iskander (May 23, 2010)

Well first time I post but I have been lurking the forum for some time now and seeing the way people wank some things is annoying.



skiboydoggy said:


> Archer's reaction speed is Mach 14 with Lancer's maximum movement speed being higher. The proof of this is that Archer could follow his Mach 14 arrows with his eyes, but completely lost track of Lancer's movement even though Lancer is much larger.



LOL WUT? man stop wanking FSN characters Archer doesn't have Mach 14 reaction speed he can track his arrows because of *Far sight* and because he only has to track the target so the arrow hits, not the arrow not because he has Mach 14 reaction speed:

*Far Sight *- Clairvoyance. Strength of vision.
C: Acquiring distant targets, raising of vision of moving objects. Higher ranks allow for precognition and detection of things that go "beyond" normal vision. (Archer)
*Example 1:* Targeting of Shirou from 4km away.
*Example 2:* Tracking an accelerating Saber and readjusting trajectory of Hrunting to match her.
*Example 3:* The famous, I can see how many tiles there are from way over here! scene.

please...... O and now that we saw this let me bring this:



Riverlia said:


> Saber intercepted several of Archer's mach 13.4 arrows in F/HA until she ran out of strength to block it.



hahaha nah the only reason Saber was able to repel those arrows was thanks to Shirou and not because he has Mach 14 reaction speed but because of this:


*Spoiler*: __ 




Decisive battle


I stepped into the boundary of Miyamachou and Shinto.
I was reminded of words he had said to me once upon a time.

The Shinto area is my shooting range. All those who enter

How many times have I been shot?
Once? Several times?
Whenever I cross this bridge,


You're an exception. I will shoot you between the eyes-

I had been defeated by you I will fight seriously
As a reenactment of the unfulfilled Heaven's Feel, 
I will kill the two of you with everything I have.

The beating of my heart grew faster.
The blood that had been sleeping, the rusted circuits within me were turned on.

.....Sorry to keep you waiting, partner.

My preparations were all in place.
Starting from now, I am going to go kill you.....

The only other person on the bridge was Saber.
Tonight, there were no cars going on the roadway. The sound of the wind blowing from the sea did not reach my strained thoughts.

&quot;....This brings back memories. Back then, I went just like this with Saber to the church, didn't I?&quot;

&quot;Yes. Shirou, who had still not understood what it meant to be a Master; I, who had not yet been your Servant; and Rin, who had still been our enemy.
Looking back on it again, we truly were an odd trio weren't we?&quot;

We're laughing of the memories of that evening a half a year ago.
This as well is a fragment of precious days for me, but right now I can't afford to be distracted by it.

&quot;But Saber, you were in a pretty sour mood.
I couldn't talk to you that much because that was the first time we met, but when we were going to the church, you were totally silent.&quot;

&quot;Of course I would be in a sour mood. Now that it is over I can tell you, but my treatment was infuriating.
If you were going to disguise me, there ought to have been a better way of doing so.&quot;

Saber was picky when it came to disguise.
This was apparently an aftereffect of having used costly disguises again and again during the previous fight....the 4th Heaven's Feel.
She did mention that she had also been dressed up as a man in a black suit. From this, I could tell that Kiritsugu must have had a lot of trouble with Saber too, since she can't dematerialize.

&quot;Hmph, it appears that you have something to say. Very well, let us settle this no......?&quot;

&quot;Saber, above you!&quot;

Saber repelled the &quot;bullet&quot; that was fired from 4 kilometers away.
I started my circuits.
I forced reinforcement sorcery into my pupils.


&quot;I can see you, Archer.&quot;

Eyes that shouldn't be able to meet, met.
The both of us became aware of an enemy that neither of us should be able to see.

The battle has begun. This night, I will cross this bridge....!

&quot;Guh.......!? Shirou, what was that.....!?
No, how did you detect that before I had....!?&quot; 
&quot;Not now, the next one's coming!
Not enough space here! Carry me up above, Saber!&quot;

&quot;U, up? By up, what do you mean, Shirou?&quot;
&quot;I mean the place that's higher and wider than where we are now.
Things are going my way. Looks like today's been booked for *us*.&quot;


&quot;The roadway on top of the bridge...yes, the footing and field of vision ought to be secure here but....&quot;
&quot;Saber, incoming at 10 'o clock! See where's it coming from!&quot;

-The second shot.
An interval of 20 seconds. The memory that just now scraped past my brain reported to me that three shots are left.

&quot;I, I have located him.....!
I cannot tell what is happening precisely, but there is a sniper on the Center Building roof......!&quot;
Didn't expect anything less from Saber.
We gained a lot by confirming his position through the last shot.

&quot;What is the meaning of this!? That is....no, there is only one person that can do this!
Why is he targetting us? I cannot believe it. How can it be that Archer of all people would want to fight in this war!?&quot;

&quot;I don't know. All I know is that he's dead serious about fighting us.
....Right now, do you actually need to hear any other reason?&quot;

&quot;It is as you say, Shirou. I will pay for what my behavior later. Now is the time to intercept Archer..!&quot;


----------



## Iskander (May 23, 2010)

*Spoiler*: __ 



-The third shot.
A grace period of two more shots.
Saber's knees will give out by the 5th one and I will die when the 6th one hits.
Those were the unchangeable results that had been drawn out from this tactic.

....Archer's sniping is increasing in power with each blast.
So he's filling them with more mana each time Saber deflects them.
The firing interval this time was 25 seconds. The next one will likely be 30 seconds.
These intervals are his weak points.
..After he fires, if we attack him before he charges the next round, the same fate as before can be avoided.

....But how?
The distance is a straight 4 kilometers away. Moving there through the roads will multiply the distance.
With Saber's Noble Phantasm we can put up a fight, but Excalibur's area of effect is too large.

There is the risk of sweeping down not only Center Bill, but even the surrounding buildings. And on top of that, we're dealing with Archer.
Knowing all of Saber's cards as much as he does, he must have a defense against Excalibur.

The effective strategy against an excellent sniper is to get close enough to him to engage in close-quarter combat.
It was impossible, however, to get close to him without him noticing.
If that is the case.....all that has to be done is to close the distance at high speed before the sniper responds.....!

&quot;Saber!&quot;
I stared at her strongly to convey my intentions.
If he has the eyes of a hawk, then the movement of my lips will give us away.
The fight will be decided in an instant. I can't let him discover what we will do.

&quot;......It is possible. However, my mana will not be enough.
This may be rude, but even adding Shirou's mana to it, it will not....&quot;
&quot;There's enough. I've still got this on me.&quot;

The last command spell on my left arm.

&quot;Shirou....! No, that is our last resort!
And even if I do succeed, who will protect you!?&quot;

&quot;I cannot agree to that idea. We should retreat and rework our approach...!&quot;
&quot;I'm going to have to say no. After all, we tried that once.&quot;
Saber can retreat by herself.
But with me here, both of us will be killed.
To pass this bridge, I've got to bet everything on this timing, on this moment.
I might be able to start over again from the beginning, but I can't start over again within this single day.
As a result, I will throw in everything that I had at this moment.

It wasn't important that I would lose a Command Spell.
What mattered was nothing other than the fact that I defeated him, even if it was just once.

-The fourth shot.

The limit to Saber's ability to satisfactorily deflect the shots had come.

&quot;I'll back you up with the Command Spell. Saber, can you do it?&quot;
There's no time. While this has been done before, this is still the best speed possible.

&quot;.....Good grief. You make decisions always so suddenly.&quot;

Saber released her stance.
The way she was standing was that of a carnivore storing energy.

&quot;......Your orders, Master. After all, I am your sword.&quot;

Her blade became visible.
Cutting off the excess mana used for the sword, Saber poured all of herr mana into her own body.

&quot;Time it for the next bullet....! Fifteen seconds....!&quot;


The firing hammers are being released one by one.
I had more to do than get the timing right.
I have two major problems.
It would be after the Command Spell was released that the true worth of Emiya Shirou would be questioned.

&quot;.....Command Spell, Trigger On.&quot;

10 seconds.
Command Spells allow for the temporary strengthening of Servants.
A powerful technique that converts that tremendous mana into energy for Servants.
Enough power to fill Saber's enormous circuit.
The Knight King that ruled all battle fields during the age of legends shall be reborn.


The order of the Command Spell was &quot;Fly&quot;.
This wasn't metaphorical flight. Literally, Saber will &quot;leap&quot; from here to the roof of Center Building.

Saber had once fought Rider in the past.
A reenactment of that fight...no, if I limited movement to a straight line, then by raising the amount of mana for the leaping time, the distance covered will increase.
If all of the mana of the Command Spell is used just for &quot;leaping&quot;, then it shouldn't be impossible to reduce this long distance to zero......!

&quot;In accordance to the vow of the Holy Grail, I, the 7th Master, order thee.&quot;

5 seconds.


Opposing us is a nameless bow.
The Epic Spirit of hardenned iron that uses traced Noble Phantasms as arrows.
The arrow edge being aimed for the definite strike is &quot;Hrunting&quot;.
....Adjustment, plus 5 seconds.
The delay increased. The bow, drawn to its greatest extent, further increased in mana to combat Saber's mana burning.
That's why, the problem is the timing.
It was risky to launch her before or at the same time.
As Saber herself would become an arrow, if Saber leaps before Archer fires, Archer will aim at Saber.
Therefore, it had to be immediately after he fired.
A difference of 0.1 seconds from the point he fires is when we'll strike.

After firing his full-force shot and before he charges the next round,
No, immediately after he finishes releasing the arrow,
She will drive into him her sword directly....

Both of their mana roared.
A showdown between the two that seemingly shook the moon.

5. Still early.

3. My Command Spell felt it would come apart from nervousness.

1. The creaking of the string. His fingers decided his target.

Saber!
&quot;Go, cut that sucker down...!!&quot;



A flash that reduced the time to cross 4000 meters to nothing.

All of Archer's mana, the arrow that used the full force of the enchanted sword slided through the atmosphere, this time to decisively kill its target.
The name of the traced sword is &quot;Hrunting&quot;.
An enchanted sword that will continue to aim to assail its target as long the sniper continues to aim, even it is deflected by Saber.
The result wouldn't change even if Saber blocks it.
No, the moment that Saber deflects is when the arrow roars, oriented towards the target.

As long as Saber expends her energy on defense, Archer's victory will remain unshakable.
Yes.
As long as she expends her energy on defense.

&quot;......., !&quot;

A moment that had not lasted even one second.
It was the scene of the moment that the fingers of the sniper had been flung from the arrow.
Saber disappeared from his target.
The bowman saw through his enemys' true goal. But it was too late.
The arrow had already been fired.

Who was it that had confirmed their victory?
Should there be a bowman that can shoot his mark several hundred meters away, he still follows an unhideable theory.
An arrow fired once cannot change its target.
Whatever arrows that guarantee a definite hit he may have, a bowman cannot resist this law.

Yet........it is by conquering that law that he is the Epic Spirit of the bow....!

&quot;......!?&quot;

The arrow is changing its path. No, it was a path that was from the start meant to strike two enemies.
That theory was sent back to us. A launched Saber had no means of dodging.
The arrow transformed into a demonic bullet and will shatter the Knight King.

An unhideable fate of death that none could avoid.

....Yet. It is by rising above that fate that she is the Epic Spirit of swords.....!


The crossing of light and light.
A tilting balance, as if it were passing.


The blue light went to the heavens as if singing of victory,
The red light plummeted to the abyss  as if telling of defeat!


Accompanied by a shockwave, Saber is released. 
The timing was perfect.

However.....this bridge isn't going to be penetrated with just a Command Spell.
With my eyes coated by winds so powerful to shake the handrails, I glare at the approaching bullet.
Time stops.
In a blank shorter than a second, blood charges in my veins.
1 second since I used the Command Spell.
No time to image.
No time needed to image.

What I had forgotten will be used all for this moment...!

&quot;, Hah......, hah.&quot;
[shadow=red,left,300]My breath stops short from nervousness and fear.
My left hand is hot.
I can see my death zero seconds later.[/shadow]

&quot;Trace......&quot;

[shadow=red,left,300]Like a tired dog, my tongue comes out and blows against the wind.
Physical information/Theory of sorcery coursing throughout.
Until formation, zero seconds. Until direct hit,[/shadow]

.........On.......!


----------



## Iskander (May 23, 2010)

See? Shirou knew how much time each shot will take how much power, the exact place they where going to hit, how much time saber was going to resist all because he is Archer get it? o and see how Saber is able to go at that speed of Mach 14 only because of the command spell order that was "fly"

And here they also explain how Archer only has to track the target so the arrow hits.


Now let's move on with Lancer being "faster than Mach 14" because Archer lost track of his movements.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz4sjL3Un1E[/YOUTUBE]

Minute 1:05 : even his hawk-like eyes cannot follow lancer's spear (you see because *Far Sight * is better with objects being far so Archer doesn't have Mach 14 reaction speed ergo Lancer being faster than him doesn't make him Mach 14+ in speed)

Minute 5:11 even his After-image is blur (so yeah we know that making after images is faster than the eye can see so him being faster than that doesn't put him anywhere near Mach 14)

Minute 5:15: there are a 100 meters and he runs 50 in a instant so yeah that doesn't give him Mach 14+ speed either.

But maybe you are going to say Berserker has Mach 14 reaction speed too right, but sadly no:

*Eye of the Mind (Fake)* - Eh well...basically the equivalent of spider-sense.
A: Resistance to modifiers from visual obstructions. A natural talent for the prediction of danger through the sixth sense. (Assassin)
*B: Avoidance of danger through instinct/sixth sense. (Berserker)*
*Example 1:* Berserker reacting to Caladbolg II and smashing it before it hit.
*Example 2:* Reaction to jewel ice bolts.

So no it isn't because he has Mach 14 reaction speed is because of this ability so please don't use that stupid logic of Berserker having Mach 14 reaction speed so Saber and anyone who fight against him haves it too because that is pure bullshit.

So please Archer doesn't have Mach 14 reaction speed, Lancer isn't faster than Mach 14 and no one in Fate is near tha speed, let me put you some info on people who actually know about Type Moon  and don't wank them like you:

*Speed*

Saber = 7 meters + slashing attack covered with 2 steps
Saber's maximum speed + command spell boost = Mach 13.2 
Archer's BP arrows = just as fast
True Assassin = slower than Lancer and Saber but as fast or faster than Kotomine
Rider = faster maximum speed than Lancer
Sakura Rider + bad terrain (cavern) = 50 meters in 2 seconds, while trying to buy enough time to get Black Saber off her back so she could gain enough distance to use Bellerophon
Lancer = 100 meter backstep in a blink of an eye, 50 meters forward in one breath, best dasher
Rin = 100 meters in 7 seconds
Kotomine (when running on bad terraincarrying Ilya and no spells) = 50km/h Shirou, with Archer's arm (before activation) = slightly slower speed than Kotomine; 100 meters in 7 seconds on bad terrain
Black Berserker (blind) = 30 meters in less than 3 seconds while slashing
Black Berserker slashes = speed of sound
Nine Lives = faster than speed of sound
Lancer's hurled Gae Bolg = Mach 2, at 40 kilo distance
Pegasus = 400~500km/h
Bazett's right straight = 80km/h
Reinforced Kuzuki throw/slam = Saber, 40kg, at a speed of 200km/h 
Araya = fast enough to dodge a bullet after it's been shot. Ryougi Shiki 3rd personality attack = faster than reaction of said Araya 

See the highest speed is Mach 2 and Mach 14 arrows and saber don't apply for their normal speed so read carefully please so you can learn somenthing.

Even in Fate Zero Saber and Gilgamesh have problems with machine guns that are like mach 3 or 4 and Saber fights against Lancer and he is faster than her but not near not close in your dreams he is Mach 14 or somenthing near that.



skiboydoggy said:


> People who know nothing about Type Moon



That would be you.




skiboydoggy said:


> The whole point of Ea is to destroy "Worlds" hence Anti-World. The World, as defined by Nasu consists of the very logical basis of the universe that makes 1 + 1 =2, black = black, white = white, gravity exerts a pull towards itself and so on. So yeah, Ea, even on a low charge shatters reality wherever the space time distortion hits.
> 
> Even if it doesn't shatter reality (lol the definition is wrong because I don't like it), it's a space time distortion nonetheless. Physical durability is basically moot against it.



LOL so if *Physical durability is basically moot against it* then how saber was able to survive getting hit by it the first time? (not the second when she used Avalon)....yeah again Bullshit o and I read that whole thread about Enuma Elish being able to bust planets and those things and that guy Cubey is right and you don't understand  nothing because if Anti-world was because he can destroy all Worlds shatter all realities then when he use Enuma Elish 2 times against Saber he would have shatter Gaias "world" Gaias Reality but no sadly for you it didn't do nothing of that, nothing happened so again Bullshit, Enuma Elish can Destroy Worlds yeah but that doesn't mean it can destroy a planet and that doesn't mean he has the power to shatter all realities the only thing he has destroyed is Iskander's Reality Marble and it isn't an infinite dimension please......



> Ionian Hetairoi - Army of the King
> Rank EX anti-army NP. *The field of battle that Iskandar's forces raced through in the past*. The landscape burned into the hearts of the heroes that Iskandar fought and emerged victorious with.
> Almost like a Realiy Marble, but the difference of this is that it isn't *Iskandar's personal internal world*, it's the combined one of Iskandar and all of his companions. Once activated, Iskandar's past comrades (including Bucephalus) materialize one after another; legendary heroes offered to the world as Heroic Spirits after death, but still show their eternal loyalty and answer Iskandar's call.
> 
> Essentially, continuous summoning of independent Servants. Numbers aren't given, but it should easily *surpass 100 Hassans*.




Yeah Infinite Dimension right.....nah in fact wrong way way wrong.

*And you can tank Enuma Elish with Physical durability proof is saber so stop your wank.*



skiboydoggy said:


> *What the fuck is this? Lancer is at least Mach 14 while moving in straight lines, *and Gae Bolg makes it such that it has already dealt damage even before it is thrust/thrown, which incidentally negates regeneration. He kills Ichigo instantly with a thrust Gae Bolg, then kills Ulq with a thrown Gae Bolg.



Already adressed the bolded and please even when Gae Bolg use reverse casuality he has to thrust the weapon to make that work so you saying that it has already dealt damage even before it is thrust is bullshit again, and LOL at you saying thrown Gae Bolg would kill Ulquiorra and H2 hahaha man you think that attack would do somenthing to them?...even worse do you really think he can hit him?..hahaha nah please stop talking nonsense.




Riverlia said:


> hundred of slashes a second was a feat in Archer vs Lancer, the Lancer who was ordered to hold back with a command seal



Nop that didn't happen in that fight, the only feat is from Saber Vs Assassin and the text clearly says:

"the session of more than a few dozen blows"

So I really don't get from where are you getting 100 slashes a second.

Excalibur isn't a City Buster either please WTF is wrong with you people stop wanking that attack didn't destroy a City...man I am surprised that the OBD is accepting all this bullshit and wank.....

And finally LOL at the argument of turning into spirit hahaha man what a stupid argument the OBD should ban that because they do that when they are running away not when they are fighting hahaha man the things you have to read.


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## Crimson King (May 23, 2010)

Actually, them having trouble against machine guns aren't that unbelievable. You said it fires at mach 2. But that's for each bullet. It's harder to react to more objects flying at you.

The post shows us Shirou has pretty good reaction time. He react right as Archer fired his shot and IIRC was able to use Rho Aias before the shot reached him.

Also, I must know, do you have the link to that? I want to read the rest of FHA.


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## Rene (May 23, 2010)

Lets start countering a couple of points:

1) on his clairvoyance: "raising of vision of moving objects"
2) Berserker is unable to use his mind's eye (fake) because of his mad enhancement.
3) Gilgamesh had no trouble keeping up with fighting Berserker in Fate/Zero while Berserker used his fighter yet.
4) "As Saber herself would become an arrow, if Saber leaps before Archer fires, Archer will aim at Saber." Archer could keep track of the command spell boosted Saber.
5) Excalibur is a city buster at maximum output by word of God
6) Gilgamesh's Ea was a low charge one, also Excalibur took a good amount of impact from the attack so she didn't take the full on blast. Physical resistance is moot, but Saber's armour is magically empowered. Also, she wasn't exactly in a state to fight anymore after she took an ea blast.
7) Here is where the 100 blows statement comes from:

middle left of this page for another view 

4:15 "Ten hits, no, many times that."
9:55 "In reality, it only lasts an instant. But for me looking on, it seems to take an infinitely long time."
10:05 "Over a hundred blows have been thrown"

8) In the narration of the second Archer vs Lancer fight, he appeared as a blur to Archer, not sure where you got the faster than a human eye can see thing form in that case. Archer his eyesight is so far from human it's not even funny. I'm not discussing Archer fighting toe to toe with Lancer, I'm referring to the feat where he has jumped back and then dashes forward.
9) Gae bolg is casuality warping. No the spear does not have to be thrust. I has already pierced the heart. That's how casuality works.
10) The intangible form is part of their skill set, deal with it. It was not limited and if an attack is fast enough or haxxed enough, it will still harm them.
11) Arguments about Excalibur and Ea have no place in this thread. Go to the corresponding thread for that.


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## God (May 23, 2010)

skiboydoggy said:


> What the fuck is this? Lancer is at least Mach 14 while moving in straight lines, and Gae Bolg makes it such that it has already dealt damage even before it is thrust/thrown, which incidentally negates regeneration. He kills Ichigo instantly with a thrust Gae Bolg, then kills Ulq with a thrown Gae Bolg.



Where did Mach 14 come from?



Crimson King said:


> You forget Gae Bolg negates regen, meaning he'll stay dead.



That ability is only active while GB is within this world. Since the location is HM, that ability is not on.


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## Crimson King (May 23, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Where did Mach 14 come from?
> 
> 
> 
> That ability is only active while GB is within this world. Since the location is HM, that ability is not on.





remains in the world meaning as long as it's not destroyed.


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## Raigen (May 23, 2010)

I'm still waiting for people to come up with a reason why Ichigo doesn't turn people into confetti when he can deflect a million tiny blades moving at super-sonic speeds in a few scant seconds.


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## Crimson King (May 23, 2010)

Raigen said:


> I'm still bringing up old arguments that have all been countered to hell and back.



Good for you.


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## God (May 23, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> remains in the world meaning as long as it's not destroyed.



And Ulquiorra would destroy it 

That not only deactivates the regeneration barrier, but also turns Ichigo into H2 since he was stabbed in the heart.


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## Crimson King (May 23, 2010)

Cubey said:


> And Ulquiorra would destroy it
> 
> That not only deactivates the regeneration barrier, but also turns Ichigo into H2 since he was stabbed in the heart.



Lancer turns into spirit form


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## Tranquil Fury (May 23, 2010)

> Where did Mach 14 come from?



He's not mach 14/13, this has already been addressed here.

As for Gae Bolg:



> Gae Bolg - The Spear of Impaling Barbed Death/The Spear of Striking Death Flight
> 
> The spear that had only taken the lives of the ones Cu Chulainn loved.
> 
> A cursed spear that will always go through the heart of the opponent when struck. Reverses causality in which the spear is launched after the truth that the heart had already been hit had been constructed. Since the spear had already hit the target, no matter what he might do, he can't avoid it. Surviving through Gae Bolg will require an auto-resurrect Noble Phantasm or high LCK or a defensive barrier that surpasses the Prana of Gae Bolg. Damage taken by Gae Bolg will not be able to be recovered from as long as Gae Bolg continues to exist (not exactly true, but well, close enough: Avalon was able to allow recovery: this also applies to normal mode Gae Bolg). Prana consumption is relatively low compared to its destiny interference ability and it can be used 7 times without needing to be refilled. *Gae Bolg's true ability is as a thrown weapon, however, in which the full power of the curse of Gae Bolg is unleashed*. Emphasis in this case is on destructive power rather than targeting accuracy. Damage and form are approaching that of Lugh's Brionac, but the power of "striking the enemy no matter how many times he may dodge" comes from Odin's Gungnir





> If Fragarach is a curse that switches the order of attack, Gae Bolg is a cursed spear that reverses causality. Even if Fragarach rewrites the fact that Gae Bolg was hurled first, it'll just wind back. The moment Gae Bolg's true name was released, Gae Bolg already held the result of hitting the heart. Even if time is returned to the point before activation and kills the user, it's meaningless. The spear having the result of piercing a heart will fulfill its role even if its master's died before he could initiate his attack



This world means as long as Gae Bolg exists the curse will continue. Avalon countered it but that's powerful, it's not completely true about the curse being permanent since powerful abilities could counter it or the spear can be destroyed. Regardless the impaling death would have worked the best due to it's H4X nature, the thrown one won't hurt with it's explosive power and it really depends on the bolded actually working.



> Lancer turns into spirit form



This is only to be used to run away, it can't be used any other way to my knowledge.


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## Crimson King (May 23, 2010)

Wouldn't Shirou reacting to Hrunting give him hypersonic reaction time though?



Tranquil Fury said:


> This is only to be used to run away, it can't be used any other way to my knowledge.




No, Servants can go into spirit form whenever they want. It's how they hide their appearance from the public and other Masters.


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## Raigen (May 23, 2010)

I've never seen any counter arguments, just vague non-responsive word strings thrown in by people alluding to a previous argument that was never presented in an effort to avoid having to actually answer the question.

I'll tell you this, even if Ichigo knocked them away in clumps of 20 that's a total of 50,000 strikes made in, say 4 seconds. That's 12,500 sword strikes per second against objects moving at speeds of around mach 3-4 at least. Meaning Ichigo's reaction times was well in excess of those speeds in order to deflect so many encompassing him all at one time.

Now given that Ichigo has grown since the SS arc and that his Bankai speed has improved to the point of matching Grimmjow's, who previously was kicking his ass all over the place easily, I'd say before Lancer even thought to use his main/best/only means of fighting back, he'd be made into cheese squares.


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## Crimson King (May 23, 2010)

Raigen said:


> I'm still making shit up.



Good for you.


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## God (May 23, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Lancer turns into spirit form



That could be a problem but then the outcome is in favor of team Bleach since Lancer is simply fighting a  war of attrition and once he runs out of stamina, he's done.



Tranquil Fury said:


> He's not mach 14/13, this has already been addressed here.
> 
> As for Gae Bolg:
> 
> ...



I caught that bit already. But since Gae Bolg always strikes the heart, that would just trigger H2, ensuring Lancer's rape, lol.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 23, 2010)

I can't comment on F/HA besides what I learnt while on Beast's Lair but the whole hiding from public thing is pointless here since even Bleach shinigami/Hollows can do that outside of characters with above normal spirit pressure, which is why Ichigo as a human could see Rukia and Tatsuki see Ichigo.



> I caught that bit already. But since Gae Bolg always strikes the heart, that would just trigger H2, ensuring Lancer's rape, lol



We don't know anything about H2ichigo outside his feats but that could technically be an auto revive ability. If he can go H2ichigo again then yeah it should work. But the power up was vague and has to be explained still.


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## Crimson King (May 23, 2010)

With spirit form, even other Masters can't see the Servants. I'll have to check to see if Servants can see them.


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## God (May 23, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> We don't know anything about H2ichigo outside his feats but that could technically be an auto revive ability. If he can go H2ichigo again then yeah it should work. But the power up was vague and has to be explained still.



?? We go by what was shown until further explanation. In that case, he was killed and his heart was destroyed. Disregarding the Kurosaki-kun plotkai, that was the requirement for the power-up. Otherwise he should be able to access it at will, unless you're saying he shouldnt have access to this power at all in match-ups.


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## Ulti (May 23, 2010)

I dunno, I gotta agree with TF on this one. It should probably be stated on whether not he has access to it or not in the OP.

As for this fight, i call evens. Pretty even fight and could go either way.

Also is it just me or do threads that involve the fate servants get rather silly?


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## God (May 23, 2010)

It was stated he has access to it, read the OP.


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## Ulti (May 23, 2010)

Heh, but that was if they get raped. Which they don't really.

Though if H2 is accessed, Lancer would have his hands full.


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## Crimson King (May 23, 2010)

I was still waiting for the source of that translation. Would have been nice to read FHA, however little is translated. 

Something else I noticed when reading though that:

Was Archer trying to hit Saber as well while she was in mid-flight? If so, that would give him hypersonic reflexes, as he is reacting to Saber charging at him while going mach 13.2


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## Iskander (May 23, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> Actually, them having trouble against machine guns aren't that unbelievable. You said it fires at mach 2. But that's for each bullet. It's harder to react to more objects flying at you.
> 
> The post shows us Shirou has pretty good reaction time. He react right as Archer fired his shot and IIRC was able to use Rho Aias before the shot reached him.



The scene shows that Shirou is able to react to the arrow because he sees the red light from far off and because he is archer, why do you think he knows the intervals of each shot, the power they have, how much time saber would be able to repel them and he can use Far sight too not because he has reaction speed of mach 14 neither does Archer his ability consists in using Far sight  to lock the target then the arrow would hit the target not because he can track the arrows that is the reason he could change the path of the arrow while Saber was coming.

And shiro was able to put Rho Aias up because of the same thing: *knowledge* not because he has mach 14 reaction speed he eand saber where able to survive thanks to his *knowledge* of being Archer.



> Also, I must know, do you have the link to that? I want to read the rest of FHA.



Link removed

here are links to some translations of FHA.





Rene said:


> 11) Arguments about Excalibur and Ea have no place in this thread. Go to the corresponding thread for that.



Another one.....



Rene said:


> Lets start countering a couple of points:
> 
> 1) on his clairvoyance: "raising of vision of moving objects"



*Far Sight - Clairvoyance. Strength of vision.
C: Acquiring distant targets, raising of vision of moving objects. Higher ranks allow for precognition and detection of things that go "beyond" normal vision. (Archer)
Example 1: Targeting of Shirou from 4km away.
Example 2: Tracking an accelerating Saber and readjusting trajectory of Hrunting to match her.
Example 3: The famous, I can see how many tiles there are from way over here! scene.*

please read carefully it isn't hard to understand Far sight helps to track far off objects that doesn't give him Mach 14 reaction time because he wasn't even tracking the arrow he was tragetting shirou so the arrow would go there.



Rene said:


> 2) Berserker is unable to use his mind's eye (fake) because of his mad enhancement.



...

*Eye of the Mind (Fake) - Eh well...basically the equivalent of spider-sense.
A: Resistance to modifiers from visual obstructions. A natural talent for the prediction of danger through the sixth sense. (Assassin)
B: Avoidance of danger through instinct/sixth sense. (Berserker)
Example 1: Berserker reacting to Caladbolg II and smashing it before it hit.
Example 2: Reaction to jewel ice bolts.*

right......no actually wrong you are wrong.




Rene said:


> 3) Gilgamesh had no trouble keeping up with fighting Berserker in Fate/Zero while Berserker used his fighter yet.



F15 max speed:
-Maximum speed:

    * High altitude: Mach 2.5+ (1,650+ mph, 2,660+ km/h)
    * Low altitude: Mach 1.2 (900 mph, 1,450 km/h)

o and he was in his Vimana and he was still shot down by Berserker.



Rene said:


> 4) "As Saber herself would become an arrow, if Saber leaps before Archer fires, Archer will aim at Saber." Archer could keep track of the command spell boosted Saber.



yeah because of far sight because she was 4 km away and she was going in straight line not because he has Mach 14 reaction speed, Archer was able even to see what Shirou was saying using far sight that is the resason Shirou didn't tell his plan to Saber with words but with his actions so again you are wrong.



Rene said:


> 5) Excalibur is a city buster at maximum output by word of God



First I am so sure this is bullshit againbut anyway please bring proof and second Excalibur hasn't been show to be able to bust a City so again you are wrong.



Rene said:


> 6) Gilgamesh's Ea was a low charge one, also Excalibur took a good amount of impact from the attack so she didn't take the full on blast. Physical resistance is moot, but Saber's armour is magically empowered. Also, she wasn't exactly in a state to fight anymore after she took an ea blast.



doesn't matter she got hit by Enuma Elish and was still alive so it can be tank with Physical resistance a shit load of characters from manga and comics would laugh off Enuma Elish only using Physical resistance so again you are wrong.



Rene said:


> 7) Here is where the 100 blows statement comes from:
> 
> middle left of this page for another view
> 
> ...



Good a hundred blows, now where does it say they do it in a second?...right so yeah wrong again.



Rene said:


> 8) In the narration of the second Archer vs Lancer fight, he appeared as a blur to Archer, not sure where you got the faster than a human eye can see thing form in that case.



leaving afterimages gives you of speed of faster than the eye can see:

that



> 100m/s (223mph - 360kph)
> 
> - Super cars
> - Formula one
> ...



that



Rene said:


> Archer his eyesight is so far from human it's not even funny. I'm not discussing Archer fighting toe to toe with Lancer, I'm referring to the feat where he has jumped back and then dashes forward.



that doesn't prove Lancer has Mach 14 speed it only says: "even his After-image is blur"  so goe to the explanation above and again you are wrong.



Rene said:


> 9) Gae bolg is casuality warping. No the spear does not have to be thrust. I has already pierced the heart. That's how casuality works.



It seems you don't understand he has to thrust the weapon for that to work just by having the weapon out there doesn't mean he has already pierced the heart so again you are wrong.



Rene said:


> 10) The intangible form is part of their skill set, deal with it. It was not limited and if an attack is fast enough or haxxed enough, it will still harm them.



deal with what? the fact of using that stupid argument when they never use going into spirit form in a fight except for running away?....no again that is one of the lamest argument I ever heard and it should be ban.

And thrown Gae Bolg wouldn't do shit to R1, R2 Ulquiorra and H1 and H2 Ichigo saying it can is pure wank.



Rene said:


> 11) Arguments about Excalibur and Ea have no place in this thread. Go to the corresponding thread for that.



No need it is already clear that Excalibur isn't a City Buster and that Enuma Elish can't bust a planet.


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## Crimson King (May 23, 2010)

Iskander said:


> The scene shows that Shirou is able to react to the arrow because he sees the red light from far off and because he is archer, why do you think he knows the intervals of each shot, the power they have, how much time saber would be able to repel them and he can use Far sight too not because he has reaction speed of mach 14 neither does Archer his ability consists in using Far sight  to lock the target then the arrow would hit the target not because he can track the arrows that is the reason he could change the path of the arrow while Saber was coming.
> 
> And shiro was able to put Rho Aias up because of the same thing: *knowledge* not because he has mach 14 reaction speed he eand saber where able to survive thanks to his *knowledge* of being Archer.



But even with knowledge, he still won't be able to know exactly when to put up Rho Aias. From the translation, it sounds like Shirou started tracing after he saw Archer let go and fire. That would mean he was able to react to Archer shooting him.

It's like someone holding a gun to you. you know they're gonna shoot, but that wouldn't matter if you can't react to it.

Using the gun analogy, it's like this: The gun clicks to show that it's really firing off a bullet. Shirou is able to put up his defenses before the bullet can reach him.

thanks for the link.


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## Iskander (May 23, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> -snip-




If you read carefully you found this:

"I had more to do than get the timing right.
I have two major problems.
It would be after the Command Spell was released that the true worth of Emiya Shirou would be questioned."

before Archer fired the arrow he knew that right after Saber would hd dodge the arrow it would go straight to him so he was prepared for that he used his knowledge to be able to put Rho Aias before the arrow hit him o and don't forget he was using far sight too.



> thanks for the link.



no problem.


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## Crimson King (May 23, 2010)

Iskander said:


> If you read carefully you found this:
> 
> "I had more to do than get the timing right.
> I have two major problems.
> ...



I see what you're getting at, but that still runs into the problem of know the exact time Archer was going to fire.

I also noticed Shirou only began tracing after the shot had passed Saber. That means he had even less time to use his projection.


Are you keeping up with the funny LP of F/sn? Some of those comments are quite humorous.


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## Iskander (May 23, 2010)

Crimson King said:


> I see what you're getting at, but that still runs into the problem of know the exact time Archer was going to fire.
> 
> I also noticed Shirou only began tracing after the shot had passed Saber. That means he had even less time to use his projection.



He knew when archer was going to fire he is counting down the seconds for the next shot:

"Time it for the next bullet....! Fifteen seconds....!"

"5 seconds."

My point is Shirou's projection is fast but  without all the knowledge he had he wouldn't have been able to put Rho Aias up to protect himself, him and Saber would be dead so that doesn't give him Mach 14 reaction speed to him, Saber not even to Archer.



> Are you keeping up with the funny LP of F/sn? Some of those comments are quite humorous.



yeah indeed they are.


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## Crimson King (May 23, 2010)

Iskander said:


> He knew when archer was going to fire he is counting down the seconds for the next shot:
> 
> "Time it for the next bullet....! Fifteen seconds....!"
> 
> ...


So they wouldn't have been able to do anything if Archer decided to shoot earlier?

You still do need extremely fast reflexes to put up a shield to block a mach 14 attack after it's been shot though.


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## Rene (May 23, 2010)

Yes Shirou obviously has knowledge of being Archer. [/sarcasm]

Shirou has a good understanding of his skill set, that would be a correct statement, above all Shirou has shown to have become quite combat savvy over time. But when he was given Archer's arm in Heaven's Feel the tremendous gap between the so called knowledge of the two was made clear. 

Saber did not survive Ea because of Physical resistance, her armor is mana empowered. 

The main reason most of them do not turn into spirit form in an actual battle is because Servants can still sense them in spirit form, but have a lot of trouble with it. A lot of noble phantasms also have space and time distorting proporties, which would no sell their intangibility and they would be unable to properly defend themselves. Archer showed that he could rapidly change out of his spirit form to appear in front of Rin to block Saber's attack and afterwards when Saber wounded him he quickly reverted to spirit form to prevent her from dropping the killing blow. Another reason is the pride of many servants.

I don't see how Archer being able to read shirou's lips from that distance proves anything at all for the feat of being able to track a command spell empowered Saber.

Gae Bolg also can be used on people without a heart to have them pierced in the chest and no sell their regeneration. Lancer simply has to activate Gae Bolg, he can thrust it anywhere and activate it and it will hit the target he intends to. That's the way the curse works.

His after image appeared as a blur to Archer, not an average human.

I was thinking about one of Berserker's other skills when I talked about mad enhancement, conceded. :<


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## Tranquil Fury (May 23, 2010)

Hrunting requires charge time. Shirou preparing Rho Aias during then does'nt make him mach 13.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 23, 2010)

I have to sleep due to having to correct things in two threads so I'll just answer the one that caught my eye:



> Gae Bolg also can be used on people without a heart to have them pierced in the chest and no sell their regeneration. Lancer simply has to activate Gae Bolg, he can thrust it anywhere and activate it and it will hit the target he intends to. That's the way the curse works



No that's the regular stabbing, impaling death goes for the heart through casuality manipulation and it's never stated or shown to go anywhere else.


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## Crimson King (May 23, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Hrunting requires charge time. Shirou preparing Rho Aias during then does'nt make him mach 13.



From what I read, he didn't start the tracing until after it has been shot.


----------



## Rene (May 23, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> No that's the regular stabbing, impaling death goes for the heart through casuality manipulation and it's never stated or shown to go anywhere else.



middle left of this page for another view

1 minute and onwards. :<


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## Big Bοss (May 23, 2010)

Rene said:


> I don't see how Archer being able to read shirou's lips from that distance proves anything at all for the feat of being able to track a command spell empowered Saber.



The scene and *Iskander's* explanation is pretty clear you know Archer was using far sight all the time and Saber went in a straight line from a distance of 4 km tracking her wasn't because he had mach 14 reaction speed it was thanks to his ability and that is why the feat of Archer being able to read shirou's lips from that distance was mention.



> His after image appeared as a blur to Archer, not an average human.



a lot of Manga and Comic characters can leave after images and go faster than that but they arent Mach 14, I think this would help you



> Look, Bullseye afterimaging like a friend!



See bullseye leaves after images too and he is only peak human, the point is that leaving after images even when they appear as a blur for others doesn't make him Mach 14 not even close to that.


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## Rene (May 23, 2010)

tobiah arronax said:


> The scene and *Iskander's* explanation is pretty clear you know Archer was using far sight all the time and Saber went in a straight line from a distance of 4 km tracking her wasn't because he had mach 14 reaction speed it was thanks to his ability and that is why the feat of Archer being able to read shirou's lips from that distance was mention.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's not about leaving after images. He appeared as a blur to Archer. Not to some random peak human fodder like the comic book character you're comparing him too. 

At the very least it places him outside of the range for the people who were saying there is no way Lancer could keep up with Ulq and Ichi when they're in R1/H1.

Lancer is not getting speedblitzed in this fight and he's certainly not getting beat by Base forms like you stated earlier on in this topic.


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## Big Bοss (May 23, 2010)

Rene said:


> It's not about leaving after images. He appeared as a blur to Archer. Not to some random peak human fodder like the comic book character you're comparing him too.
> 
> At the very least it places him outside of the range for the people who were saying there is no way Lancer could keep up with Ulq and Ichi when they're in R1/H1.



You know Cyclops isn't a random peak human fodder and in the fight between Byakuya and Ichigo it happened too and in a lot of other fights but leaving after images doesn't give you that kind of speed.



> Lancer is not getting speedblitzed in this fight and he's certainly not getting beat by Base forms *like you stated earlier on in this topic*.



You know I never said he was going to get beat by base forms I clearly said that Ulquiorra base would win because he has no heart but with difficulty and that R2, R1 and H2 would win because they are far stronger, faster and don't have heart but Base Ichigo/Bankai/Hollow would loose due to Gae Bolg.

And if I misunderstood your post my bad.


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## God (May 23, 2010)

And how would Hollow Ichigo lose?


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## Big Bοss (May 23, 2010)

Cubey said:


> And how would Hollow Ichigo lose?



I would say because of the Heart issue but then again if his heart is gone then H2 comes out to play and he is fuck.


----------



## God (May 23, 2010)

That's what I was thinking


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## Devil Kings (May 23, 2010)

tobiah arronax said:


> I would say because of the Heart issue but then again if his heart is gone then H2 comes out to play and he is fuck.



Doenst matter it you have a heart or not, it stop the person from healing themselves, period.

Also Lancer already killed someone without a heart before.


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## God (May 23, 2010)

That ability can be overpowered, and Ulquiorra could just destroy the weapon.


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## Big Bοss (May 23, 2010)

Devil Kings said:


> Doenst matter it you have a heart or not, it stop the person from healing themselves, period.
> 
> Also Lancer already killed someone without a heart before.



middle left of this page for another view

yeah that is pretty much dead see the big hole in the chest I don't think H2 has nothing to do with regen is just some beast that get's free when Ichigo is well kind of dead with no heart.

So after that Gae Bolg won't do nothing to him at all and the fact tha R2 and H2 are way more powerful and faster than lancer is still there.


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## Rene (May 23, 2010)

tobiah arronax said:


> middle left of this page for another view
> 
> yeah that is pretty much dead see the big hole in the chest I don't think H2 has nothing to do with regen is just some beast that get's free when Ichigo is well kind of dead with no heart.
> 
> So after that Gae Bolg won't do nothing to him at all and the fact tha R2 and H2 are way more powerful and faster than lancer is still there.



Destructive capacity yes. They're still not faster than him though.


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## Crimson King (May 23, 2010)

I'm still waiting for Skib so he can defend his points.


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## God (May 23, 2010)

Rene said:


> Destructive capacity yes. *They're still not faster than him though.*



And where do you get this again?


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## Big Bοss (May 23, 2010)

Rene said:


> Destructive capacity yes. *They're still not faster than him though*.



I am pretty sure they are and by a lot even when we don't have calcs and those things.


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## Rene (May 23, 2010)

Because Bleach characters still aren't Hypersonic, or low end if you're dealing with top tiers.


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## God (May 23, 2010)

Again where did you get this from again?


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## Big Bοss (May 23, 2010)

and you know they aren't hypersonic because?

and while you answer that I will like you to show me how is lancer hypersonic because if you haven't notice his speed isn't in that range.


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## Xelloss (May 23, 2010)

So now people asking for prof of Bleach beeing hypersonic when there are like 3 or 4 threads on the metadome already proving that.


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## Riverlia (May 23, 2010)

> .
> It seems you don't understand he has to thrust the weapon for that to work just by having the weapon out there doesn't mean he has already pierced the heart so again you are wrong.


No, the spear doesn't have to be thrust
The requirement is calling the name, not thrusting the spear, the moment the name was called, 'Gae Bolg piercing the heart' is affirmed
Fragarach reversed time and blowed away half of Lancer's body, yet Gae Bolg still pierced Bazette's heart.
Gae Bolg will pierce the heart even if there is no user to thrust it.


> See? Shirou knew how much time each shot will take how much power, the exact place they where going to hit, how much time saber was going to resist all because he is Archer get it? o and see how Saber is able to go at that speed of Mach 14 only because of the command spell order that was "fly"
> 
> And here they also explain how Archer only has to track the target so the arrow hits.


Intercept as in deflecting the arrows that was coming to Shirou, not when she slash Archer
In one of the deaths before this event, Saber deflected the arrows until she was exhausted.
Shirou know jack, he doesn't even remember he has Rho Aias prior to this and get hrunting in the head
He only knew about the arrow because he died to it, and not just once.


> Wouldn't Shirou reacting to Hrunting give him hypersonic reaction time though


Only if dieing a few times before you subconsciously know how thing will go count


> Nop that didn't happen in that fight, the only feat is from Saber Vs Assassin and the text clearly says:


hundreds in a few second, in the trial if I'm not mistaken
Although I didn't keep it to re-check, so I could be wrong. Those who kept it cited so *shrug*


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## Crimson King (May 23, 2010)

Riverlia said:


> Only if dieing a few times before you subconsciously know how thing will go count



That has nothing to do with the part I'm trying to clear up. Hrunting has already been shot. It has already passed Saber before Shirou started his tracing for Rho Aias. He was able to finish his action before Hrunting had reached him, but after it has already been fired.

Meaning Shirou was able to react to it after it had been fired and was able to defend himself.


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## Rene (May 23, 2010)

Cubey said:


> Again where did you get this from again?


Read Below



tobiah arronax said:


> and you know they aren't hypersonic because?
> 
> and while you answer that I will like you to show me how is lancer hypersonic because if you haven't notice his speed isn't in that range.


Read below.

Also, he consistently blitzed characters with Supersonic+ - low end hypersonic movement and Hypersonic+ reaction time. (Saber and Archer) Also through powerscaling from the Rider fight.

Rider was able to fight a Dark Saber for nearly 15 minutes while constantly moving before Dark Saber came close to landing a serious hit on her.


Xelloss said:


> So now people asking for prof of Bleach beeing hypersonic when there are like 3 or 4 threads on the metadome already proving that.


Then please provide the calcs in question. None of the Hypersonic thread calcs ended up being accepted.

Top tier Bleach is hypersonic through powerscaling, but they're on equal footing or lower than Servants.


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## Xelloss (May 23, 2010)

Thats my point for Lancer there are valid calculation, for bleach theres powerscaling so is not realiable.


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## God (May 23, 2010)

Rene said:


> Also, he consistently blitzed characters with Supersonic+ - low end hypersonic movement and Hypersonic+ reaction time. (Saber and Archer) Also through powerscaling from the Rider fight.
> 
> Rider was able to fight a Dark Saber for nearly 15 minutes while constantly moving before Dark Saber came close to landing a serious hit on her.



This proves nothing. It isnt even a solid calc like the Bleach ones.


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## Crimson King (May 23, 2010)

Xelloss said:


> Thats my point for Lancer there are valid calculation, for bleach theres powerscaling so is not realiable.



According to the one who thinks Bill Clinton will be a worthy opponent, The calc for Lancer being mach 14 is flawed.


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## skiboydoggy (May 24, 2010)

Iskander said:


> LOL WUT? man stop wanking FSN characters Archer doesn't have Mach 14 reaction speed he can track his arrows because of *Far sight* and because he only has to track the target so the arrow hits, not the arrow not because he has Mach 14 reaction speed:
> 
> *Far Sight *- Clairvoyance. Strength of vision.
> C: Acquiring distant targets, *raising of vision of moving objects*. Higher ranks allow for precognition and detection of things that go "beyond" normal vision. (Archer)



Urrhurrhurr. Archer can in fact see better regardless of distance. Reinforcement improves the "concept" of an object fully. A lamp becomes brighter, a wooden sword becomes tougher, a normal sword becomes sharper, and eyesight becomes better. He can not only see further, he can just plain track things better.



Iskander said:


> See? Shirou knew how much time each shot will take how much power, the exact place they where going to hit, how much time saber was going to resist all because he is Archer get it? o and see how Saber is able to go at that speed of Mach 14 only because of the command spell order that was "fly"



What do Shirou's and Saber's speeds have to do with Lancer's and Archer's?



> And here they also explain how Archer only has to track the target so the arrow hits.



Fair enough. You're still wrong on a lot of things though.



> Minute 1:05 : even his hawk-like eyes cannot follow lancer's spear (you see because *Far Sight * is better with objects being far so Archer doesn't have Mach 14 reaction speed ergo Lancer being faster than him doesn't make him Mach 14+ in speed)



No. Archer's eyesight is purely superior thanks to his relevant skills. Losing track of Lancer at close range is very much the same as losing Lancer at long range. (As far as his eyesight is concerned anyway.)



> Minute 5:11 even his After-image is blur (so yeah we know that making after images is faster than the eye can see so him being faster than that doesn't put him anywhere near Mach 14)



His afterimage is a blur to Archer. I.E. he is faster than Archer can follow.



> Minute 5:15: there are a 100 meters and he runs 50 in a instant so yeah that doesn't give him Mach 14+ speed either.



It's just his skill of Disengage and probably one of his Anthuz runes letting him jump back faster than any Servant can ever react to, so... Whatever.



> But maybe you are going to say Berserker has Mach 14 reaction speed too right, but sadly no:
> 
> *Eye of the Mind (Fake)* - Eh well...basically the equivalent of spider-sense.
> A: Resistance to modifiers from visual obstructions. A natural talent for the prediction of danger through the sixth sense. (Assassin)
> ...



It doesn't matter very much in the long run because having a form of precognition, limited or otherwise, does count towards your ability to react. Neither Berserker or Saber have foot speeds as fast as Lancer, but Eye of the Mind (Fake) B and Instinct A respectively bumps up their reactions significantly.



> So please Archer doesn't have Mach 14 reaction speed, Lancer isn't faster than Mach 14 and no one in Fate is near tha speed, let me put you some info on people who actually know about Type Moon  and don't wank them like you:



I've seen all of those, and many of them are just plain nonsensical when considering other feats.



> Saber = 7 meters + slashing attack covered with 2 steps



This isn't even speed. It just means she can take long strides with Mana Burst.



> Saber's maximum speed + command spell boost = Mach 13.2
> Archer's BP arrows = just as fast







> True Assassin = slower than Lancer and Saber but as fast or faster than Kotomine



And True Assassin is easily the weakest Servant like, ever, and he is still the physical superior of an Executioner.



> Sakura Rider + bad terrain (cavern) = 50 meters in 2 seconds, while trying to buy enough time to get Black Saber off her back so she could gain enough distance to use Bellerophon



So basically she makes herself faster than Saber Alter who has a *D* in Agility, basically refuses to move in anything faster than a menacing walk for the most part, shits enough prana that you can't even really hurt her, and can blast anything Rider can do away with Excalibur that she can use repeatedly. Okay.



> Lancer = 100 meter backstep in a blink of an eye, 50 meters forward in one breath, best dasher



REALLY FAST



> Rin = 100 meters in 7 seconds
> Kotomine (when running on bad terraincarrying Ilya and no spells) = 50km/h Shirou, with Archer's arm (before activation) = slightly slower speed than Kotomine; 100 meters in 7 seconds on bad terrain



Even humans have insanely fast foot speeds by our standards, and the weakest Servant is still many times their superior in every stat. Yeah, okay.



> Black Berserker (blind) = 30 meters in less than 3 seconds while slashing
> Black Berserker slashes = speed of sound



Of course Berserker Alter is noted to be a permanently injured, even more psychotic (and still without Mad Enhancement) version of Berserker, who is quite notably there to be able to job to Shirou. Is vanilla Berserker's attacks were only sound speed, there would be no way he could be considered the "strongest Servant" as there have been other feats that make pretty much most Servant's foot speeds to supersonic anyway. As I recall, Kiritsugu's Saber can run at Mach 2. So yeah. Also, note that Shirou considered ordinary Berserker's attacks to be capable of razing a mountain. Can't do that with sonic speed swings.



> Lancer's hurled Gae Bolg = Mach 2, at 40 kilo distance



You have to realise that attaching a speed to Gae Bolg makes even less sense than having such a slow Pegasus because well, Gae Bolg has already hit. But maintaining Mach 2 for 40 kilometres is respectable nonetheless.



> Pegasus = 400~500km/h



Pegasus, the thing that can turn into a white beam of destruction comparable to but ultimately weaker than the lightspeed Excalibur is 400km/h. Get out of here.



> Bazett's right straight = 80km/h
> Reinforced Kuzuki throw/slam = Saber, 40kg, at a speed of 200km/h
> Araya = fast enough to dodge a bullet after it's been shot. Ryougi Shiki 3rd personality attack = faster than reaction of said Araya



So basically humans are really strong, Servants are a gazillion times better. Got it.



> See the highest speed is Mach 2 and Mach 14 arrows and saber don't apply for their normal speed so read carefully please so you can learn somenthing.



I've seen all of those speeds before, and none of them deny the basic hypersonic nature of the majority of Servants, such as being able to attack hundreds of times per second. Especially since Void Shiki is easily supersonic and even she stands ZERO chance against even very average Servants because they would blitz her to hell. Yeah, Archer would blitz Void Shiki, what are you going to do about it?



> Even in Fate Zero Saber and Gilgamesh have problems with machine guns that are like mach 3 or 4 and Saber fights against Lancer and he is faster than her but not near not close in your dreams he is Mach 14 or somenthing near that.



Hundreds of Noble Phantasm bullets moving faster than your standard foot speed would be quite dangerous indeed, but I'll have you note that both Saber and Gilgamesh survived that fight and it was Lancer who died.



> That would be you.







> LOL so if *Physical durability is basically moot against it* then how saber was able to survive getting hit by it the first time? (not the second when she used Avalon)....



Servants are conceptual. Their physical durability is basically infinite. The power Enuma Elish had on a conceptual level was already significantly lessened by stopping Excalibur and even then she nearly died. And once again, as I said in that thread:

"You can't tank a reality rending attack with physical durability unless otherwise noted."

Even if Saber managed to tank it, that just makes her one of the otherwise noted. Because you just plain cannot physically tank reality warping.



> I read that whole thread about Enuma Elish being able to bust planets and those things and that guy Cubey is right and you don't understand  nothing because if Anti-world was because he can destroy all Worlds shatter all realities then when he use Enuma Elish 2 times against Saber he would have shatter Gaias "world" Gaias Reality but no sadly for you it didn't do nothing of that, nothing happened so again Bullshit, Enuma Elish can Destroy Worlds yeah but that doesn't mean it can destroy a planet and that doesn't mean he has the power to shatter all realities the only thing he has destroyed is Iskander's Reality Marble and it isn't an infinite dimension please......



If you think Cubey was in any way right then you're insanely wrong on about five thousand levels. He thinks Ea is an ethereal attack that has no bearing on the physical plain, so yeah. And the same arguments still hold: Why would he throw an Anti-World attack at Gaia? He has no reason to destroy it when he thinks he actually owns it. But more to the point, get this stuff out of this bloody thread.



> Yeah Infinite Dimension right.....nah in fact wrong way way wrong.



You can't walk to the end of a Reality Marble because there is no end. Infinite.

Prove me wrong.


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## skiboydoggy (May 24, 2010)

*And you can tank Enuma Elish with Physical durability proof is saber so stop your wank.*





> Already adressed the bolded and please even when Gae Bolg use reverse casuality he has to thrust the weapon to make that work so you saying that it has already dealt damage even before it is thrust is bullshit again, and LOL at you saying thrown Gae Bolg would kill Ulquiorra and H2 hahaha man you think that attack would do somenthing to them?...even worse do you really think he can hit him?..hahaha nah please stop talking nonsense.



lol no. Once Gae Bolg is activated, it has already hit. Ulq and Ichigo get decimated.



> Excalibur isn't a City Buster either please WTF is wrong with you people stop wanking that attack didn't destroy a City...man I am surprised that the OBD is accepting all this bullshit and wank.....



lrn2fuckingread? Excalibur is consistently called a blockbuster, not a citybuster.



> And finally LOL at the argument of turning into spirit hahaha man what a stupid argument the OBD should ban that because they do that when they are running away not when they are fighting hahaha man the things you have to read.



Dodging an attack is not running away? 
A legitimate move is not legitimate because you laughed at it! 

And now my brain hurts after all that terrible English so I think I'm going to spread some red now.


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## Riverlia (May 24, 2010)

> Hrunting has already been shot. It has already passed Saber before Shirou started his tracing for Rho Aias. He was able to finish his action before Hrunting had reached him, but after it has already been fired.


Yes, it's hypersonic speed, but over 3-4 kilometer distance, and Shirou only erected a shield and let it hit the shield, which is different from what people normally mean by hypersonic reaction (reacting to close quarter hypersonic attack or track and deflect/strike a hypersonic projectile) it just mean shouting and activating Rho Aias take less than a second.


> And True Assassin is easily the weakest Servant like, ever, and he is still the physical superior of an Executioner.


In the light that even Ciel, a Burial Agency Agent (the top 7 anti-whatever the entire Church has to offer, far far above Kotomine or Kiritsugu level) can only fight a defensive fight against a most average Servant, the fact that Kotomine wasn't blitzed out-right is impressive on it own





LOL at Gae Bolg needing to be thrusted and Shirou's knowledge of being Archer. Shirou was never Archer, you cant be the 90 year olds you when you are 12; as for Gae Bolg, the thrust is mere formality, and will be carried out even if the user is dead or time was reverse to before its name was called, which was specifically noted to be the case in F/HA.
However everything else, well, you guys can continue debating ;'p I do think Servants are both being overestimated in some aspects, and underestimated in others due to words of god being ignored.


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## Raigen (May 24, 2010)

Even if you don't like or count the anime, this is still awesome. 
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8LiYMxJkuQ[/YOUTUBE]


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