# Jiraiya vs Bee



## Sufex (May 6, 2020)

Manga Intel for jman. Bee has full intelligence

IC to kill

20 meters chunin exams arena

Stips: bee has samehada, BM restricted but partial transformations allowed and V2

Jman stars in base


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## Turrin (May 6, 2020)

Sufex said:


> Manga Intel for jman. Bee has full intelligence
> 
> IC to kill
> 
> ...


With BM Restricted Jiraiya definitely wins. 

In-fact I’m honestly not sure what V1/2 B can even do against Yomi Numa. But if he doesn’t loose to that B is going to loose to Senpo Techniques or worse case scenario Frog-Song.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (May 6, 2020)

Sufex said:


> Manga Intel for jman. Bee has full intelligence
> 
> IC to kill
> 
> ...



Bee gets close with his Kenjutsu and turns Jiraiya into a pin cushion.

Base Bee molests Jiraiya, let alone any cloaked version who move at such speeds that Jiraiya wjnt even be able to perceive them


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## Zero890 (May 6, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Base Bee molests Jiraiya



Let me guess, this makes Kisame looks better


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## Troyse22 (May 6, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> Let me guess, this makes Kisame looks better



Mmm no, looking purely from a feats perspective idk how Jiraiya deals with Bees Kenjutsu.

Fucking Asura Path alone crushed Jiraiyas throat, imagine what Bee would do since hes way stronger AND faster than Asura.


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## Thenewguysnm1 (May 6, 2020)

Bee blitzes and one shots


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## Thenewguysnm1 (May 6, 2020)

Bee negged MS sasuke in the first exchange, that’s a greater feat than anything Jirayia has. Him overpowering AY in base adds to the fact he’s in a different tier to base Jirayia

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zero890 (May 6, 2020)

Thenewguysnm1 said:


> Bee blitzes and one shots



Is this your dupe @Troyse22


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## Troyse22 (May 6, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> Is this your dupe @Troyse22



No I'm a separate person


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## Troyse22 (May 6, 2020)

Fuck wrong account!


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## Bonly (May 6, 2020)

Jiraiya should win more times then not since Bijuu Mode is restricted here as that was B's only chance to win as he'll get overwhelmed once Jiraiya gets into Sage Mode

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shazam (May 6, 2020)

Sufex said:


> Manga Intel for jman. Bee has full intelligence
> 
> IC to kill
> 
> ...



Jiraiya wins. 

Kn4 Naruto > V2 Bee. 

Base Jiraiya > Base Bee

SM Jiraiya >> V2 Bee

Reactions: Like 2


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## Thenewguysnm1 (May 7, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Jiraiya wins.
> 
> Kn4 Naruto > V2 Bee.
> 
> ...


base bee negged Sasuke.
BM Bee>V2 bee>SM jirayia>V1 bee>Base bee>Base jirayia


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## Troyse22 (May 7, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Kn4 Naruto > V2 Bee.



Based on?

Kn4 couldn't even consistently tag a half dead Orochimaru

V2 Bee legit blitzed both Kisame and Nagato on panel.



Shazam said:


> Base Jiraiya > Base Bee



More versatile for sure, but Base Bee made V1 Ays performance against Sasuke look pitiful. 1v1 sasuke couldn't even defend himself effectively, let alone counter attacking.



Shazam said:


> SM Jiraiya >> V2 Bee



Not at all. V2 Bee is incredibly tanky, hits way harder, is way faster....

More accurate tier list would be

BM Bee>V2 Bee>V1 Bee>Base Bee>SM Jiraiya>Base Jiraiya

Reactions: Like 1


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## J★J♥ (May 7, 2020)

Bee cant fight Jiraya without BM. He lost to Kisame.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Thenewguysnm1 said:


> base bee negged Sasuke.
> BM Bee>V2 bee>SM jirayia>V1 bee>Base bee>Base jirayia


1- Base B beat a Sasuke who was still injured from his fight within Itachi. Base-B also caught Sasuke off guard due to his inexperience. 

2- Jiriaya was already known as a legendary Ninja in the Shinobi wars before he even gained SM; and he has had 2 Low/Mid Kage at his mercy in Base (Konan and Kisame); he also beat KN4 in Base without Killer intent. All of that is better then defeating Injured 3T Sasuke. 

3- V2 B is completely outclassed in Power by KN4, who can use crazy chakra claw creations, throw around shockwaves casually, and use TBB; while V2 B can do none of those things. Base Jiriaya beating V2 KN4 without killer intent automatically means Base Jiriaya is above V1/Bass B; and probably has a shot at beating V2 B; but for sure SM Jiriaya is above V2-B. 

Realistically 

SM Jiriaya > V2 B =~ Base Jiriaya > V1/Base B > Injured 3T Sasuke

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (May 7, 2020)

Jiraiya has no feats, Sm or otherwise, that tell me hed be able to react to V2 Bees speed.

Hes not tanking or blocking it with anything either.

Samehada is also a huge amp for Base Bee and allows him to neg literally all of Jiraiyas attacks.

With full intel, hed get in Jiraiyas face and just shred him with acrobat or Samehada or take his head off with lariat out the gate so no summons or SM prep ever occur. 

Bee takes it, mid diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hardcore (May 7, 2020)

lol he fucking low-diffs using V2 with full knowledge

jiraya's only little chance here is for B to somehow do mistakes and beat him with frog song or some sealing

he literally is outclassed in every single stat

jiraya has no chance to react or do any quick damage


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## t0xeus (May 7, 2020)

With full knowledge, Bee just goes V1/V2 right off the bat and blitzes Jiraiya.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> With full knowledge, Bee just goes V1/V2 right off the bat and blitzes Jiraiya.


Yomi Numa easily stops a blitz; and quite frankly wins the match


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## t0xeus (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yomi Numa easily stops a blitz; and quite frankly wins the match


Jiraiya would have to cast it on himself, because by the time he finishes the handseals, V1 Bee will already be in his face.


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## Sufex (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yomi Numa easily stops a blitz; and quite frankly wins the match


Raiton stream?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Sufex said:


> Raiton stream?


Does what?


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Jiraiya would have to cast it on himself, because by the time he finishes the handseals, V1 Bee will already be in his face.


Just casts it on the area directly in-front if him.


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## t0xeus (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Just casts it on the area directly in-front if him.


If someone like Mifune is quick enough to restrict Jiraiya's superior and a renown speedster Hanzo from using handseals, then Jiraiya is not casting Doton jutsu before his chest is ripped by Lariat from V1 Bee.


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## Hardcore (May 7, 2020)

>yomi numa beating V2 jins


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> If someone like Mifune is quick enough to restrict Jiraiya's superior and a renown speedster Hanzo from using handseals, then Jiraiya is not casting Doton jutsu before his chest is ripped by Lariat from V1 Bee.


Mifune has a dedicated style to doing this; and we don’t know how fast Rusty Hanzo was; and really have no way to measure Mifune’s speed in comparison to B’s. So that is a useless metric. 

Your also drastically overrating B’s Speed. Kisame had not issue reacting to V1 B, and Kisame is slower then Base Jiriaya. 3T Sasuke had no problem reacting to V1 B Mid-Air, while still injured from his battle with Itachi, in-fact V1 B best “feat” is matching RCM Ei4 during their double Lariate on Kisame; the same RCM Ei4 that Sasuke with 3T aim dodges once he recovers from his injuries; and Base Jiriaya is equal to 3T Sasuke in speed.

So yeah I see no reason to believe B is blitzing anyone here.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> >yomi numa beating V2 jins


Thanks for conceeding you have no argument


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## Hardcore (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Thanks for conceeding you have no argument



i didn't see any proof

to provide an argument

cause as far as i know, it's best feat is drowning small snakes?


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> i didn't see any proof
> 
> to provide an argument
> 
> cause as far as i know, it's best feat is drowning small snakes?


The Snake was far larger then V2-B; and that was a swamp Jiriaya considered small.

So what does V2 B do against it; generally asking


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## t0xeus (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Mifune has a dedicated style to doing this; and we don’t know how fast Rusty Hanzo was; and really have no way to measure Mifune’s speed in comparison to B’s. So that is a useless metric.
> 
> Your also drastically overrating B’s Speed. Kisame had not issue reacting to V1 B, and Kisame is slower then Base Jiriaya. 3T Sasuke had no problem reacting to V1 B Mid-Air, while still injured from his battle with Itachi, in-fact V1 B best “feat” is matching RCM Ei4 during their double Lariate on Kisame; the same RCM Ei4 that Sasuke with 3T aim dodges once he recovers from his injuries; and Base Jiriaya is equal to 3T Sasuke in speed.
> 
> So yeah I see no reason to believe B is blitzing anyone here.


It's easier to parry, reposition your arms etc than make actual handseals in tandem.

Proof is Hanzo clashing with Mifune in CQC, yet not being able to make handseals.

So show me evidence of Jiraiya physically reacting to V1 Bee level of speeds and then we can move the debate to whether he is able to make a more delicate movements like handseals, which canonically are harder to do when pressured than blocking/parrying etc.


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## Hardcore (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> The Snake was larger then V2-B; and that was a swamp Jiriaya considered small.
> 
> So what does V2 B do against it; generally asking



umm just overpower it and jump out of it?

just because it was larger doesn't mean they have more strength dude


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> It's easier to parry, reposition your arms etc than make actual handseals in tandem.
> 
> Proof is Hanzo clashing with Mifune in CQC, yet not being able to make handseals.
> 
> So show me evidence of Jiraiya physically reacting to V1 Bee level of speeds and then we can move the debate to whether he is able to make a more delicate movements like handseals, which canonically are harder to do when pressured than blocking/parrying etc.


No for that to be proof. You need to prove at minimum:

1- V1 B >= Mifune IAI 
2- Rusty Hanzo Seal Speed >= Jiriaya’s
3- Equivalent Distance Between V1 & Jiraiya; and Mifune & Hanzo

—-
Jiriaya speed stat is a 4.5 in the DB, which is equivalent to 3T Sasuke’s 4.5 in the DB. He also has no problem activating hand-seals before Orochimaru can land his attacks, who also has a 4.5 in speed in the DB. 

DB aside Jiriaya has no problem casting Hand-Seals before Kisame can do anything; and Kisame kept up with V1 B. Jiriaya also has no problem casting hand-seals before Pain can do anything and the Paths have shown relativistic speed to Kakashi (another 4.5) someone who showed relativistic speed to 3T Sasuke who aim dodges RCM Ei4; who V1 B is at best equivalent too. Jiriaya also has no problem casting hand-seals and nailing Konan with his Jutsu; who demonstrated reaction speeds quick enough to react to Obito Kamui; to detonate paper notes at the exact moment to interrupt it.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> umm just overpower it and jump out of it?
> 
> just because it was larger doesn't mean they have more strength dude


1- You can’t jump out of a swamp; you need an actual foot hold to jump out of something.

2- Sure can you show me V2 B amazing strength feats? I mean Kakashi is shown blocking attacks from V2 6-Tails easily; who while probably not as strong as V2 B; Kakashi isn’t nearly as strong as massive Snake Summon ether; and we have to assume Jiriaya can stop something far more powerful when not drugged


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## t0xeus (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> No for that to be proof. You need to prove at minimum:
> 
> 1- V1 B >= Mifune IAI
> 2- Rusty Hanzo Seal Speed >= Jiriaya’s
> ...


I already said that blocking or partially moving your limbs does not translate to being able to make handseals.

Hanzo was able to engage in CQC with Mifune just fine, only thing he wasn't quick enough to do is handseals.

So Kisame, Sasuke or anyone else dodging V1 Bee does not mean they would be able to cast ninjutsu that requires handseals before he catches up to them.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> I already said that blocking or partially moving your limbs does not translate to being able to make handseals.
> 
> Hanzo was able to engage in CQC with Mifune just fine, only thing he wasn't quick enough to do is handseals.
> 
> So Kisame, Sasuke or anyone else dodging V1 Bee does not mean they would be able to cast ninjutsu that requires handseals before he catches up to them.


I understand what your saying; you still need to prove,

that V1 B speed is >= Mifune IAI, because if it’s slower Mifune feats are irrelevant to measuring what B can do

that Rusty Hanzo Hand-seal speed is >= Jiraiya; otherwise stopping Hanzo’s seals doesn’t mean Mifune could stop Jiriaya’s

that the distance between them is the same; because if B has to cover more distance then Mifune; then he needs to be even faster then Mifune IAI to pull off the same feat

——
No it just means that they could dodge B’s hit and then cast hand-seals at the same time they are evading him dude. Mifune stopped Hanzo’s hand-seals because he could not evade Mifune strike; he had to block it .


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## t0xeus (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I understand what your saying; you still need to prove,
> 
> that V1 B speed is >= Mifune IAI, because if it’s slower Mifune feats are irrelevant to measuring what B can do
> 
> ...


I only brought up Mifune's example to prove that CQC movements are easier to do than handseals.

Jiraiya has no reaction feats on MS Sasuke's level, who was able to dodge due to his Sharingan precog. So there is no evidence suggesting he can even physically react.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> I only brought up Mifune's example to prove that CQC movements are easier to do than handseals.
> 
> Jiraiya has no reaction feats on MS Sasuke's level, who was able to dodge due to his Sharingan precog. So there is no evidence suggesting he can even physically react.


1- Okay, not contesting that 

2- I just gave you the DB scores and feats that link them. So ether address that or concede the point; don’t act like I didn’t just give you a long list of Feats / Evidence


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## Ayala (May 7, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Mmm no, looking purely from a feats perspective idk how Jiraiya deals with Bees Kenjutsu.
> 
> Fucking Asura Path alone crushed Jiraiyas throat, imagine what Bee would do since hes way stronger AND faster than Asura.



Nagato did the same to B, in fact worse as he arrested his attack and held him up in the air with one hand, by the throat, using Asura of course 

Plus that was base injured Jiraiya


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## t0xeus (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Okay, not contesting that
> 
> 2- I just gave you the DB scores and feats that link them. So ether address that or concede the point; don’t act like I didn’t just give you a long list of Feats / Evidence


You said Sasuke has 4.5 in speed with his 3T accounted.

How can precog be accounted for in the speed category, when it has nothing to do with speed?

Where is it stated that character's amps are accounted for in those categories anyways?


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> You said Sasuke has 4.5 in speed with his 3T accounted.
> 
> How can precog be accounted for in the speed category, when it has nothing to do with speed?
> 
> Where is it stated that character's amps are accounted for in those categories anyways?


The Speed category is movement speed and reaction speed; precog is accounted for in reaction speed; the DB even says Sharingan is accounted for in stats in the DB3: saying Sasuke stats will increase more with Mangekyo. I can find you the page, but it will take me some time; but maybe just trust me....

And I also gave you plenty of examples outside of the DB stats you have not addressed anyway,

Edit: Here PG 219 of DB3:


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## Hardcore (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- You can’t jump out of a swamp; you need an actual foot hold to jump out of something.
> 
> 2- Sure can you show me V2 B amazing strength feats? I mean Kakashi is shown blocking attacks from V2 6-Tails easily; who while probably not as strong as V2 B; Kakashi isn’t nearly as strong as massive Snake Summon ether; and we have to assume Jiriaya can stop something far more powerful when not drugged



that's not how things work, again burden of proof is on YOU to give evidence of what yomi numa is able to do.. you can't just assume it's about size.. otherwise yomi numa would one-shot god-tiers according to your logic

but here goes nothing

he destroyed the force field of the strongest barrier that the alliance has with V2, and with V1 he destroyed a big stadium in the sasuke fight with a punch then broke sasuke's neck with 1 hit

*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 








but sure the mini snakes oro summoned can do that


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## t0xeus (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> The Speed category is movement speed and reaction speed; precog is accounted for in reaction speed; the DB even says Sharingan is accounted for in stats in the DB3: saying Sasuke stats will increase more with Mangekyo. I can find you the page, but it will take me some time; but maybe just trust me....
> 
> And I also gave you plenty of examples outside of the DB stats you have not addressed anyway,


Sharingan only makes it possible for the user to predict enemy's movements. That does not directly correlate with speed, as seen with P1 Lee handing Sasuke his ass.

The DB probably means the chakra amp that comes from Sharingan/MS which does influence physical stats.


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## Troyse22 (May 7, 2020)

Ayala said:


> Nagato did the same to B, in fact worse as he arrested his attack and held him up in the air with one hand, by the throat, using Asura of course
> 
> Plus that was base injured Jiraiya



Comparing Nagato to Asura path?

Yknow, Nagato, his OP ass Uzumaki body? Compared to...a corpse with some hinges?

And Nagato also never crushed Bees throat despite being in a body 100x stronger, he merely restrained him, and its certainly not like he was above using extreme force, ffs he was about to blow Bees head off with a laser

Jiraiya having his arm blown off doesn't mean all his other bones got weaker and are more brittle or something.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> that's not how things work, again burden of proof is on YOU to give evidence of what yomi numa is able to do.. you can't just assume it's about size.. otherwise yomi numa would one-shot god-tiers according to your logic
> 
> but here goes nothing
> 
> ...


Let’s recap Hardcore:

You said he could jump out of the swamp; I said how does he jump without a foothold. The burden of proof is on you to show how he jumps without a foothold 

You said B can overpower the swamp; I said that a weaker then normal Swamp stopped a Massive Snake; please note I’m not saying this is a feat because the Snake is large, I’m saying this is a feat because the Snake due to its size is physical very strong; the burden of proof is now on you to show B has massively greater physical strength then the Snake. 

—-
 1- He broke the barrier with a TBB; that’s completely irrelevant to this discussion 

2- Where in that picture did he break Sasuke’s neck? Not that it matters as Sasuke has never been some paragon of physical strength.

3- The snake wasn’t small; they were close to Boss Summon size. And again Jiriaya said this was a pathetic swamp due to being drugged to the point where his Jutsu weren’t even working properly lol


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## Zero890 (May 7, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> despite being in a body 100x



This is totally baseless


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Sharingan only makes it possible for the user to predict enemy's movements. That does not directly correlate with speed, as seen with P1 Lee handing Sasuke his ass.
> 
> The DB probably means the chakra amp that comes from Sharingan/MS which does influence physical stats.


It directly correlates to reaction speed. Lee handed Sasuke his ass because even with enhanced reactions Lee was still too quick for him to react. And the other thing here is that Sasuke actually needs to have the physical speed to evade V1 B and RCM Ei4 which he clearly has; the author is telling us Jiriaya also has that physical speed.

But again I have provided you examples outside of the DB anyway, which you continue to not address


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## Troyse22 (May 7, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> This is totally baseless



Wow you really refuted my argument by pointing out OBVIOUS exaggeration, the point was Nagato in his own body has VASTLY better physical stats than any of the paths on account of his body

So not only does he have the ridiculous ability to spam Rinnegan abilities, he can also fuck shit up with his speed and strength.


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## Zero890 (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> You said he could jump out of the swamp; I



I mean you are right, his strength is useless if he doesn't have something to lean on to jump.


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## Zero890 (May 7, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Wow you really refuted my argument by pointing out OBVIOUS exaggeration, the point was Nagato in his own body has VASTLY better physical stats than any of the paths on account of his body
> 
> So not only does he have the ridiculous ability to spam Rinnegan abilities, he can also fuck shit up with his speed and strength.



Nagato looks very weak, nothing suggest his body is physically better than his Paths


Edit: and you said 100× his paths


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## HokageSage2000 (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Thanks for conceding you have no argument


Yomi Numa is not impressive at all it is just a swamp LMAO! With knowledge of Jiraiya moveset and hype as a Sannin along with being the master and teacher of the Fourth Hokage. Bee goes instantly into V2 and speedblitz Base Jiraiya far worse than Kn4 Kid Naruto. Base Bee blitzed MS Sasuke something that even SM Jiraiya probably couldn't do. Asura path crushed his throat and rip off his arms. Base Bee let alone V2 speed blitzed and one-shots via gut punch and bijuudama combo. There is no why Jiraiya will have the time and prep to go SM when Bee goes V2 instantly at the start of the match. Samehada will also eat Jiraiya Cho Odama Rasengans along with his Karyu Endan and heal Bee if injured. Bee stomps low diff. Mid diff if Jiraiya somehow goes SM.


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## BlackHeartedImp (May 7, 2020)

I'd reckon Bee wins here. His upper limit showings in the war arc give him an edge, imo. With full knowledge here as well, he knows he's going to have to press Jiraiya from the get go to not allow him to get to sage mode, as that is Jiraiya's most viable route to victory. With how fast Bee can go v1 and v2, I don't see Jiraiya getting into SM, and thus, not winning.

If we're going purely by scaling, Bee has fought Edo Itachi to what was essentially a stalemate while only ever using partial transformations, not even v1 or v2. Even the most staunch of Jiraiya's supporters regularly acknowledge that Itachi=Jiraiya (though I have Itachi>Jiraiya due to matchup issues, I digress).


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

HokageSage2000 said:


> Yomi Numa is not impressive at all it is just a swamp LMAO! With knowledge of Jiraiya moveset and hype as a Sannin along with being the master and teacher of the Fourth Hokage. Bee goes instantly into V2 and speedblitz Base Jiraiya far worse than Kn4 Kid Naruto. Base Bee blitzed MS Sasuke something that even SM Jiraiya probably couldn't do. Asura path crushed his throat and rip off his arms. Base Bee let alone V2 speed blitzed and one-shots via gut punch and bijuudama combo. There is no why Jiraiya will have the time and prep to go SM when Bee goes V2 instantly at the start of the match. Samehada will also eat Jiraiya Cho Odama Rasengans along with his Karyu Endan and heal Bee if injured. Bee stomps low diff. Mid diff if Jiraiya somehow goes SM.


I don’t care how impressive you think it is or not; B doesn’t have a counter.

And the rest of this is just false

B doesn’t go V2 right away in matches 
B doesn’t have the feats in V2 to suggest he will blitz Jiriaya


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## Troyse22 (May 7, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> Nagato looks very weak



So does Orochimaru.

We know for a fact that Nagatos physicals are incredible because of his body. The paths are not strong bodies, at least not relative to Senjus/Uchihas/Uzumakis/WhateverRaikagesare/Whateverkisameis. Give Nagato a Senju body to operate as a 6pop and it'll be strong.

The bodies matter, we know for a fact every path doesn't possess equal physical stats.


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## t0xeus (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> It directly correlates to reaction speed. Lee handed Sasuke his ass because even with enhanced reactions Lee was still too quick for him to react. And the other thing here is that Sasuke actually needs to have the physical speed to evade V1 B and RCM Ei4 which he clearly has; the author is telling us Jiriaya also has that physical speed.
> 
> But again I have provided you examples outside of the DB anyway, which you continue to not address


Lee outright states that Sharingan precog does *Link Removed*. It only allows the user to use his base speed more efficiently as the precog provides more clarity into his opponent's moves.
So as Lee says, even if *Sharingan* can see him, unless the user's own *speed* is high enough - it will not help. Which is Lee making a clear distinction between *Sharingan* and *speed*. So DB would not account for it in speed obviously.

2- If you mean this, then a lot of your arguments here still rest on DB.


Turrin said:


> DB aside Jiriaya has no problem casting Hand-Seals before Kisame can do anything; and Kisame kept up with V1 B. Jiriaya also has no problem casting hand-seals before Pain can do anything and the Paths have shown relativistic speed to Kakashi (another 4.5) someone who showed relativistic speed to 3T Sasuke who aim dodges RCM Ei4; who V1 B is at best equivalent too. Jiriaya also has no problem casting hand-seals and nailing Konan with his Jutsu; who demonstrated reaction speeds quick enough to react to Obito Kamui; to detonate paper notes at the exact moment to interrupt it.


- Kisame never used handseals before V1 Bee so it does not mean much as I already proved that CQC movement is faster than handseals.

- Kakashi has 4.5 without precog, and I think Kakashi never fought Sasuke in CQC without 3T.

- Konan's feat against Kamui is a _mental_ reaction, so her not being able to _physically_ react to an attack from Jiraiya is not relevant.


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## Zero890 (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> - Kisame never used handseals before V1 Bee so it does not mean much as I already proved that CQC movement is faster than handseals.



Mmm iirc Kisame used Dai Baksuishoha against V1/V2 Bee


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## Hardcore (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Let’s recap Hardcore:
> 
> You said he could jump out of the swamp; I said how does he jump without a foothold. The burden of proof is on you to show how he jumps without a foothold
> 
> ...



no dude, size doesn't matter here

by that logic the snake has higher physical strength than eos base naruto..

and no, he broke the barriers with the TBB and the force field with V2 separately.. and i literally showed you a strength feat with V1 in which he pulverized the entire arena..

now show me the physical feats of those snakes cause the most i remember they destroyed a wall..


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## t0xeus (May 7, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> Mmm iirc Kisame used Dai Baksuishoha against V1/V2 Bee


Bee was standing still. That's not a reaction from Kisame.


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## Troyse22 (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Bee was standing still. That's not a reaction from Kisame.



He cleanly reacted to Hirudora.


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## Sufex (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Does what?


What do you mean does what  its a direct counter.


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## t0xeus (May 7, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> He cleanly reacted to Hirudora.


From far far bigger distance than the 20-30m that we're discussing here though.


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## Zero890 (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Bee was standing still. That's not a reaction from Kisame.



But he used Ninjutsu right then why not Jman


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## Troyse22 (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> From far far bigger distance than the 20-30m that we're discussing here though.



And Hirudora is also 20-30x faster

Don't make me jump in this debate t0x


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## Troyse22 (May 7, 2020)

sannin camp knows Jiraiya cant contend with Kisames Ninjutsu, so now they say that Jiraiya uses 40 before Kisame forms an inkling of a thought.

Remarkable...


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## Hardcore (May 7, 2020)

@Turrin

just remembered

even kn0 naruto stopped a fucking snake in the forest of death in p1

common dude


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## Troyse22 (May 7, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> @Turrin
> 
> just remembered
> 
> ...



Kisame cant though, apparently he's fucking slower than P1 civilians

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Zero890 (May 7, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> sannin camp knows Jiraiya cant contend with Kisames Ninjutsu, so now they say that Jiraiya uses 40 before Kisame forms an inkling of a thought.
> 
> Remarkable...



Funny as always


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## Troyse22 (May 7, 2020)

World renowned and feared assassin, with the greatest feat of assassination in the manga...introducing the world's slowest fodder, Kisame!

Like wtf?


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## HokageSage2000 (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I don’t care how impressive you think it is or not; B doesn’t have a counter.
> 
> And the rest of this is just false
> 
> ...


Are you trolling Turrin? Yomi Numa has now feat showing that it can trap V2 Bee. If it was so powerful why didn't he use it against Kn4 Kid Naruto before he got his chest caved in? Bee will go V2 if he knows Jiraiya is a Sanin, Minato (Fourth Hokage) master, and Senjustsu specialist. SM Jiraiya is now physically impressive at all, he got blitzed by Paths of Pains. If SM Jiraiya gets arm ripped off my Asura path then V2 Bee turns him into a pool of blood. Also, Turrin proves how Jiraiya will go SM despite the massive prep time when Bee can go V2 instantly. Jiraiya summons gets one-shotted via Bijuudama. Base Bee blitzing MS Sasuke proves he faster than SM Jiraiya let alone in V2.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ayala (May 7, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Comparing Nagato to Asura path?
> 
> Yknow, Nagato, his OP ass Uzumaki body? Compared to...a corpse with some hinges?
> 
> ...



Nagato used Asura to do that, he arrested B's strike and held him still with one hand. That shows Asura is superior in strength to B. And Asura path is not a "corpse with some hinges", the thing is made by metal plates.

B can be superior to Jiraiya in strength, just like Asura is, but it don't mean they win the match neg diff in neutral conditions. Asura needed a surprise attack to get his arm, in neutral ground he poses no harm to Jiraiya.


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## Troyse22 (May 7, 2020)

Ayala said:


> Nagato used Asura to do that,



I get that, it's merely an extension, the physical strength is different from user to user

The strength of the extensions scales to the user, it's not the same between all users.

Can you imagine Sasuke's Asura arms, or JJ Madara's not even killing Jiraiya? LMAO


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## Reddan (May 7, 2020)

Bee is above the Sannin by quite a bit. This is almost a spite thread. Giving Bee, Samehada just increases the already big gap.


Ayala said:


> Nagato used Asura to do that, he arrested B's strike and held him still with one hand. That shows Asura is superior in strength to B. And Asura path is not a "corpse with some hinges", the thing is made by metal plates.
> 
> B can be superior to Jiraiya in strength, just like Asura is, but it don't mean they win the match neg diff in neutral conditions. Asura needed a surprise attack to get his arm, in neutral ground he poses no harm to Jiraiya.


Nagato's powers cannot be compared to Pains. Nagato is way, above Pain. Nagato would stomp Pain no difficulty. 

Everything Nagato did, was far far more impressive than Pain, and that was Edo Nagato. 

Bee is superior to Jiraiya, in strength, skill, speed, reactions, intelligence (alongside 8 tails), stamina and taijutsu. Jiraiya's only advantage is in ninjutsu and even then Bee has more destructive and faster jutsu.


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## t0xeus (May 7, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> And Hirudora is also 20-30x faster
> 
> Don't make me jump in this debate t0x


Well to be fair Kisame did not start making handseals after Hirudora was moving at him, which makes it pretty tough for a comparison with V1 Bee who is already charging at him from a smaller distance.

Kisame already made had the initial handseal prepared before Hirudora was even fired


In general tho, TBH the list of people who I see using several handseals by the time V1 Bee moves 20m is very small.

It doesn't even come down to just their physical reactions, but also their handseals execution speed.

I can't think of a person I see using ninjutsu in time instead of being forced to block/dodge V1 Bee that isn't tiers above him tbh.

For clarification, I do think Kisame can easily react to V1 Bee with stuff like blocks, swings etc, but using ninjutsu in time should be far harder.



Zero890 said:


> But he used Ninjutsu right then why not Jman


I never said Jiraiya can't use ninjutsu if Bee just stares at him.


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## Troyse22 (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Kisame already made the initial handseal before Hirudora was even fired
> *Spoiler*:



Kisame's handseal there is a Doton seal IIRC, in other words, it was drawn for dramatic effect which happened quite often during the WA.

His "Actual" handseal is him clapping his hands together


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Lee outright states that Sharingan precog does *Link Removed*. It only allows the user to use his base speed more efficiently as the precog provides more clarity into his opponent's moves.
> So as Lee says, even if *Sharingan* can see him, unless the user's own *speed* is high enough - it will not help. Which is Lee making a clear distinction between *Sharingan* and *speed*. So DB would not account for it in speed obviously.
> 
> 2- If you mean this, then a lot of your arguments here still rest on DB.
> ...


1- There are two types of speed; reaction speed and movement speed. Lee is talking about movement speed. Sharingan enhances reaction speed. DB measures both 

In the case of RCM Ei4 and V1 B; Sasuke speed was high enough to evade them. Otherwise even if he saw the movements; like Lee said he would not have been able to physically move in time to evade them

2- Yes it does; if Kisame can move at relativistic speeds to V1 B; and he could not blitz Jiriaya before Jiriaya could use hand-signs. Then B isn’t likely to be able to ether 

3- I wasn’t using Kakashi 4.5 as support for that argument; I said Pain Realms kept up with 3T Kakashi. Pain realms were never showing speeds where they could blitz Jiriaya before he could form seals.

4- It was not a mental reaction only; as she reacted and physical controlled her paper in response. Guess what she couldn’t do in response to Jiriaya’s Jutsu casting?

Let’s also bare in mind that Yamato kept up with 3T Sasuke; Hidan kept up with 3T Kakashi; and I could go on, and they are all inferior to Jiraiya in Speed.


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## t0xeus (May 7, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame's handseal there is a Doton seal IIRC, in other words, it was drawn for dramatic effect which happened quite often during the WA.
> 
> His "Actual" handseal is him clapping his hands together


It's the same handseal Zetsu clone made when he was about to use Daikodan:


Either way it's just hard to gauge from the Hirudora speed how translatable it is to V1 Bee scenario

Do you see Kisame using ninjutsu from like 15m against Bee? Or will he be instead forced to block/dodge?


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> no dude, size doesn't matter here
> 
> by that logic the snake has higher physical strength than eos base naruto..
> 
> ...


1- Size effects physical force/strength. So yes it does matter. What your highlighting with EoS Naruto is that Size isn’t the only factor, but it still is factor 

2- What you showed me was him breaking through with the TBB. Which is like crediting Sannin Arc Naruto physical strength with his Rasengan feats; totally irrelevant 

3- The Snakes have a similar feat of destroying the ground; so again I’m not seeing the big deal here. Not to mention that in the scene your talking about B is dive bombing the ground:


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Sufex said:


> What do you mean does what  its a direct counter.


Okay how does it counter it. For example Raiton diffuses Deidara Bombs; but you can’t diffuse a swamp. Also Yomi Nina >>> Raiton Flow; so unless it’s super weak to Raiton like Deidara Clay; this isn’t even a relevant discussion


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## dergeist (May 7, 2020)

Base Bee stomps, let alone any V version.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

HokageSage2000 said:


> Are you trolling Turrin? Yomi Numa has now feat showing that it can trap V2 Bee. If it was so powerful why didn't he use it against Kn4 Kid Naruto before he got his chest caved in? Bee will go V2 if he knows Jiraiya is a Sanin, Minato (Fourth Hokage) master, and Senjustsu specialist. SM Jiraiya is now physically impressive at all, he got blitzed by Paths of Pains. If SM Jiraiya gets arm ripped off my Asura path then V2 Bee turns him into a pool of blood. Also, Turrin proves how Jiraiya will go SM despite the massive prep time when Bee can go V2 instantly. Jiraiya summons gets one-shotted via Bijuudama. Base Bee blitzing MS Sasuke proves he faster than SM Jiraiya let alone in V2.


1- Are you Wanking? 

2- KN4 is way >> V2 B; plus if you want to go off that battle then Base Jiriaya wins by default because he beat KN4, who is again >> V2 B

3- When Kisame appeared in-front of B; from the same organization as Sasuke, who he said was one of the strongest people he ever fought he still fought in Base first. When attacked by Nagato and Itachi he fought in Base first. When attacked by 6 Jin with Rinnegan and Sharingan he fought in Base first. Sorry but your convenient belief that he goes V2 right away; is trumped by how he actually has acted in the Manga Cannon

4- V2 B can’t use Bijuudama....

5- He didn’t blitz Sasuke; he out did him in CQC; there is a difference. Also Sasuke was injured still from his duel with Itachi. Literally after being healed by Karin he is evading V1 B attack mid air ; so obviously he is not slower then Base-B normally.


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## Hardcore (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Size effects physical force/strength. So yes it does matter. What your highlighting with EoS Naruto is that Size isn’t the only factor, but it still is factor
> 
> 2- What you showed me was him breaking through with the TBB. Which is like crediting Sannin Arc Naruto physical strength with his Rasengan feats; totally irrelevant
> 
> 3- The Snakes have a similar feat of destroying the ground; so again I’m not seeing the big deal here. Not to mention that in the scene your talking about B is dive bombing the ground:



dude, this is fiction, size affects, but not when you have someone boosted by bijuu chakra(one of the strongest powers in the manga).. 

and dude i am not talking about the TBB.. B reverted to V2 to break the forcefield that was being supplemented by several people(the best barrier makers in the alliance)

and that was two snakes doing it so divide it by 2 and still V1 B's one looks much stronger, and B should easily scale to A4's physical feats

on the other hand, Kn0 fucking stopped a snake in part 1, why are you still going on with this dude, do you think Kn0 can stop V2B??


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## Hardcore (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 2- *KN4 is way >> V2 B*; plus if you want to go off that battle then Base Jiriaya wins by default because he beat KN4, who is again >> V2 B



we went through this dude and no

orochimaru was able to fight with KN4 head to head with the latter landing several attacks

V1 B which is less powerful than V2 B solo'd taka with ease and they had someone on the team who was already above sealed arms orochimaru..


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## Ayala (May 7, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> I get that, it's merely an extension, the physical strength is different from user to user
> 
> The strength of the extensions scales to the user, it's not the same between all users.
> 
> Can you imagine Sasuke's Asura arms, or JJ Madara's not even killing Jiraiya? LMAO



Nagato's use of Rinnegan and the paths use of the Rinnegan is the same. Nagato using Preta is the same as Preta path using it, Nagato using Soul Rip is same as Human using it. Because Nagato is using Rinnegan, Cerberus or the other beast dont come out stronger, rather than when a girl is using it. And so on. 

Asura path is completely transformed into a robot, thus it makes no sense to say "it's just a weak corpse using Asura", just like Animal's path power didn't change from the path changing from male shinobi to a girl that couldn't even properly jump.


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## t0xeus (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- There are two types of speed; reaction speed and movement speed. Lee is talking about movement speed. Sharingan enhances reaction speed. DB measures both
> 
> In the case of RCM Ei4 and V1 B; Sasuke speed was high enough to evade them. Otherwise even if he saw the movements; like Lee said he would not have been able to physically move in time to evade them


1- Reaction speed is how quickly it takes one to respond to a stimulus.
Sharingan only allows one to see the stimulus in advance, thus making it possible to adjust to it before it happens. It does not boost the speed of how quickly can one process something.
So there is no reason to assume DB includes Sharingan in an area that is not directly influenced by it. Stuff like ninjutsu or genjutsu, which Sharingan directly helps with by giving the user new jutsus, would obviously be accounted for though.

Sasuke only saw the future movements Ei4 and Bee were about to take, and adjusted to them in advance. It's true he needs sufficient enough speed to be able to do it, but it's not easily measurable and translatable to non-Sharingan precog users.



Turrin said:


> 2- Yes it does; if Kisame can move at relativistic speeds to V1 B; and he could not blitz Jiriaya before Jiriaya could use hand-signs. Then B isn’t likely to be able to ether


Hanzo can move at relativistic speeds to Mifune, yet he isn't able to finish handseals before the latter interrupts him.

Unless you have a scan of Kisame finishing ninjutsu before V1 Bee rushing at him interrupts it, then there is no comparison to be made here.



Turrin said:


> 3- I wasn’t using Kakashi 4.5 as support for that argument; I said Pain Realms kept up with 3T Kakashi. Pain realms were never showing speeds where they could blitz Jiriaya before he could form seals.


Did Deva or Asura ever rush at Jiraiya who was making handseals? If not, then what are you referring to?



Turrin said:


> 4- It was not a mental reaction only; as she reacted and physical controlled her paper in response. Guess what she couldn’t do in response to Jiriaya’s Jutsu casting?


She remotely detonated explosive tags after Obito initiated Kamui, and we don't see her making any handseal for it. So how is that a physical reaction?



> Let’s also bare in mind that Yamato kept up with 3T Sasuke; Hidan kept up with 3T Kakashi; and I could go on, and they are all inferior to Jiraiya in Speed.


How did Yamato keep up? He even had "!!" and noted that Sasuke is fast when Sasuke suddenly Shunshin'd in front of Naruto.

And I don't see why would Base Jiraiya be > 3T Kakashi in speed.


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## Troyse22 (May 7, 2020)

Ayala said:


> Nagato's use of Rinnegan and the paths use of the Rinnegan is the same. Nagato using Preta is the same as Preta path using it,



Oh ur wrong though, Nagato using Preta absorbed an entire V2 cloak on panel near instantly.

It took a few panels for Pain Preta to get Naruto out SM, and Narutos non Kyuubi reserves don't exceed V2 Bees by any massive margin, if at all.

It also took Pain Preta quite a bit to absorb COR, Goemon too.


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## 僕がキラだ (May 7, 2020)

Bee cuts him up before he can even shout out Needle Jizo.


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## Ayala (May 7, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Oh ur wrong though, Nagato using Preta absorbed an entire V2 cloak on panel near instantly.
> 
> It took a few panels for Pain Preta to get Naruto out SM, and Narutos non Kyuubi reserves don't exceed V2 Bees by any massive margin, if at all.
> 
> It also took Pain Preta quite a bit to absorb COR, Goemon too.



Absorbing internal reserves is more difficult than a superficial chakra cloak. Nagato also took a bit to absorb a normal Rasengan thrown from Naruto, a bit less than what Preta path required to absorb the superior FRS.


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## Sufex (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Okay how does it counter it. For example Raiton diffuses Deidara Bombs; but you can’t diffuse a swamp. Also Yomi Nina >>> Raiton Flow; so unless it’s super weak to Raiton like Deidara Clay; this isn’t even a relevant discussion


Why wouldn't it yomi numa is still sibject to the elemental wheel is it not? Even in its first showing a gaiant snake was able to move in it but bee can't? It should diffuse the swamp enough to escape. would Ay be stuck as well?


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- Reaction speed is how quickly it takes one to respond to a stimulus.
> Sharingan only allows one to see the stimulus in advance, thus making it possible to adjust to it before it happens. It does not boost the reaction speed itself.
> So there is no reason to assume DB includes Sharingan in an area that is not directly influenced. Stuff like ninjutsu or genjutsu, which Sharingan directly helps with by giving the user new jutsus, would obviously be accounted for though.
> 
> ...


1- If you see something before it happens; you are reacting quicker, period.

But okay putting aside whether prediction is included or not; Your admitting that if someone with Sasuke’s speed can predict the movements of B they can evade his attack right.

2- But we’re not comparing Kisame and B; to each other; we are comparing them to Jiriaya. To simplify Kisame and B are relativistic in speed; but Jiriaya hand-seals speed is faster. 

3- It doesn’t matter if they rushed forward towards him or not; obviously if they could blitz him before he could form a single seal they would be doing it. And if you want to say well they just didn’t do it; then we need to have a discussion about the likelihood of B going V1 and attempting a blitz right away too

4- The paper tags have a physically move towards Obito and physical detonate; how is that not a physical response 

5- Yamato is able to leap inbetween Sasuke attack on Sakura without issue; and I’m saying Jiriaya is faster then Hidan who kept up with Kakashi.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> dude, this is fiction, size affects, but not when you have someone boosted by bijuu chakra(one of the strongest powers in the manga)..
> 
> and dude i am not talking about the TBB.. B reverted to V2 to break the forcefield that was being supplemented by several people(the best barrier makers in the alliance)
> 
> ...


1- Your telling me size effects and then telling me it’s fiction; no your just wrong, size is an important spect to consider. Now your premise is Bijuu Chakra makes B Massively stronger then the Snakes; okay, I’m asking you to prove this, that’s how a discussion works 

2- B used a TBB to greatly weaken the barrier first; then him and Naruto pushing the TBB broke through the rest of the way. Again this is an irrelevant feat because most of the work was done by the TBB

3- Okay if you want to play that game we can divide by two for the snakes, but then since V1 B dive bombed to produce his effect so minus whatever force produced by dive bombing for B; and it’s probably going to be similar. Remember you don’t need to just prove V1-B is around the level of the snake; you need to prove he is Massively stronger 

4- He stopped a smaller snake; sure. But if you don’t want to go off the Snakes we don’t have to; we can go off Human Realm who one handed a SM users punch which easily slaps around boss summons; but could not physically resist the swamp at all. So can you prove V1 B is massively stronger then a SM user?


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> we went through this dude and no
> 
> orochimaru was able to fight with KN4 head to head with the latter landing several attacks
> 
> V1 B which is less powerful than V2 B solo'd taka with ease and they had someone on the team who was already above sealed arms orochimaru..


How does Orochimaru landing several attacks mean Kn4 isn’t stronger then B. I mean it’s an outfit fact that KN4 possess more raw power as it can create shockwaves by merely exuding it’s chakra and can use TBB; nether of which V2 B or any other V2 Jin can do. 

No one one Taka was above Orochimaru at the time. Not injured Sasuke; that’s for dam sure

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Sufex said:


> Why wouldn't it yomi numa is still sibject to the elemental wheel is it not? Even in its first showing a gaiant snake was able to move in it but bee can't? It should diffuse the swamp enough to escape. would Ay be stuck as well?


Elemental Wheel stated that counter affinity only are guaranteed to come into play if the two Jutsu are on the same level; which Raiton Flow is not on the same level as a massive A-Rank Doton Swamp.

And I’ll ask you again what does diffuse a swamp mean lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- If you see something before it happens; you are reacting quicker, period


It only boosts their reaction speed in their LOS at best even if we go by your definition. While DB measures their speed in general, not just to things in their LOS.

It'd make far more sense to include actual 360 degree reaction speed amplifiers like Jiraiya's barrier which allows him to react to even things behind his back, than Sharingan.



Turrin said:


> But okay putting aside whether prediction is included or not; Your admitting that if someone with Sasuke’s speed can predict the movements of B they can evade his attack right.


If you have the same physical speed as Sasuke, and the ability to see V1 Bee moving as he did, then obviously you can react. As those two factors are what allowed him to do what he did in the first place




Turrin said:


> 2- But we’re not comparing Kisame and B; to each other; we are comparing them to Jiriaya. To simplify Kisame and B are relativistic in speed; but Jiriaya hand-seals speed is faster.


What do you mean by Kisame and V1 Bee being relativistic though? V1 Bee was significantly faster.

Kisame literally made minimal movements such as move his feet a bit, or move his arms, while V1 Bee was covering 5m+ distances in the same time window. That's an enormous gap in physical speed.



Turrin said:


> 3- It doesn’t matter if they rushed forward towards him or not; obviously if they could blitz him before he could form a single seal they would be doing it. And if you want to say well they just didn’t do it; then we need to have a discussion about the likelihood of B going V1 and attempting a blitz right away too


We literally don't know how did Jiraiya pull off the Toad Barrier technique. Obviously Pain being slow enough to interrupt him was unlikely to be the issue when he has access to BT/ST which Jiraiya is not outpacing with physical speed.

Plus Toad Barrier doesn't even require handseals IIRC.

And I don't think he used any other ninjutsu against Asura/Deva than this one. Correct me if I'm wrong



Turrin said:


> 4- The paper tags have a physically move towards Obito and physical detonate; how is that not a physical response


She MIXED the explosive tags in with the ones she used to attack him prior to Kamui activation, 



Turrin said:


> 5- Yamato is able to leap inbetween Sasuke attack on Sakura without issue; and I’m saying Jiriaya is faster then Hidan who kept up with Kakashi.


1- Yamato intercepting Sasuke's attack does not mean he is not significantly slower than Sasuke. We have slower characters intercepting faster ones all the time (even Sai is able to intercept Sasuke's sword swing against Naruto there)

2- Okay, Jiraiya could be faster than Hidan. What does that prove in regards to whether he can react to V1 Bee though? IIRC you only equated Jiraiya to Kakashi based on the Paths example which doesn't work


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## Hardcore (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> How does Orochimaru landing several attacks mean Kn4 isn’t stronger then B. I mean it’s an outfit fact that KN4 possess more raw power as it can create shockwaves by merely exuding it’s chakra and can use TBB; nether of which V2 B or any other V2 Jin can do.
> 
> No one one Taka was above Orochimaru at the time. Not injured Sasuke; that’s for dam sure



cause sasuke is much faster than orochimaru 

and they asked karen to keep track of B's movements

and the only reason he avoided was because his movements is linear and he could predict with his MS

and as i said, B physically scales to A4



> He stopped a smaller snake; sure. But if you don’t want to go off the Snakes we don’t have to; we can go off Human Realm who one handed a SM users punch which easily slaps around boss summons; but could not physically resist the swamp at all. So can you prove V1 B is massively stronger then a SM user?



can you link what you're talking about


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> It only boosts their reaction speed in their LOS at best even if we go by your definition. While DB measures their speed in general, not just to things in their LOS.
> 
> It'd make far more sense to include actual 360 degree reaction speed amplifiers like Jiraiya's barrier which allows him to react to even things behind his back, than Sharingan.
> 
> ...


1- Your basically saying DB doesn’t fact your eyesight into reaction speed and only records what you can react to when blind; so literally anyone who doesn’t have extrasensory abilities should have a 0. That doesn’t make any sense bruv

2- Okay so we know Jiriaya has the same physical speed as Sasuke. So if he can predict the trajectory of B’s extremely linear V1 Lariate; he can evade it right? 

3- Interesting T0x that suddenly distance matters, but what massive distance are you talking about exactly? B was right next to Kisame here when he headbuts him:

And Kisame reacts and headbuts him back:

if you want to get technical that means Kisame started his action after B did and moved quicker then B there 

Then B stabs at Kisame with his sword:

And Kisame slash’s B Mid strike:

4. We don’t even need to go off the Toad Barrier Technique. He literally was able to etch a complex seal engraving while near death into Fusaku back before Pain could blitz him; yet he can’t form a single seal against them?

5. Activation of explosive tags is a physical reaction. Also in the paper ocean scene she controls the tags to cling into Obito as well before he can warp himself away. 

6. No we haven’t consistently seen that; you are just underrating those characters that have intercepted other characters. 

7. It proves that the speed gaps are not as big as your making them out to be; If Hidan can keep up with 3T users in CQC; who can at times evade V1 B and aim dodge RCM Ei4; that there is very little reason to believe that someone significantly faster then Hidan couldn’t form one seal before being blitz’d by V1-B at apparently any distance according to you


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## Gulash (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> How does Orochimaru landing several attacks mean Kn4 isn’t stronger then B. I mean it’s an outfit fact that KN4 possess more raw power as it can create shockwaves by merely exuding it’s chakra and can use TBB; nether of which V2 B or any other V2 Jin can do.
> 
> No one one Taka was above Orochimaru at the time. Not injured Sasuke; that’s for dam sure


While I agree KN4 seemed more powerfull than any other V2 jin that we saw,the thing about TBB was pretty obvious.At least to me.
Its said that Jins can only fire TBB in full Biju mode,meaning when the Jins are in control.
In Narutos case,when he was in KN4 mode,its not he who was in control,it was the Fox.
So it was Kurama who fired that TBB.


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## Shazam (May 7, 2020)

Sufex said:


> Manga Intel for jman. Bee has full intelligence
> 
> IC to kill
> 
> ...



Jiraiya wins. And Bee would immediately need to go V2 to make this even a fight at all. 

KN4 Naruto is superior to V2 Bee. Its hard to deny that one that uses a TBB, more durable cloak (that is also corrosive) and Kyuubi > 8 Tails is the weaker of the two. And yet Jiraiya (Base) is able to subdue albeit with heavy injury.

So outside of what the manga has already told us indirectly, things like Toad Oil Bullet (slows down Bee), Lions Mane, Gamayu Edan, FCD or a simple rasengan are all things that give Bee immediate issues. In conjunction and done tactically, Jiraiya eventually kills V2 Bee even while in base, if all else fails he uses a chakra suppressing seal which became a part of his tool set after he started working with Naruto. Bee also will be trying to fight a CqC battle against a Mid-Long range shinobi.

If someone tries to say anything about a blitz, we see Jugo react and save Suigetsu and Karin from a straight line attack that 3T Sasuke (whose a bit injured) could completely dodge. He needed a blind side distraction to land a fatal blow that wasnt blocked at all. Sasuke also notes that he only moves in a linear fashion (whilst in V2 state).

As for Sage Mode Jiraiya, Bee would then have to deal with a numerous amount of attacks like Frog Call, Senpo Goemon and every attack being enhanced by senjutsu now.

Base Jiraiya wins mid-high diff

SM Jiraiya wins low-mid diff


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> cause sasuke is much faster than orochimaru
> 
> and they asked karen to keep track of B's movements
> 
> ...


1- When was Sasuke proven to be much faster then Orochimaru? They both have a 4.5 in the DB. And Orochimaru on his death bed was reacting to CS1 3T Sasuke’s attacks 

2- Sasuke was injured against B; we later see 3T Sasuke aim dodge RCM Ei4 when he is healthy.

3- I have to link Human Realm blocking SM Jiriaya’s punch?  It’s in Ch 377 after Fusaku drops the Smoke Bomb; SM Jiriaya punches human realm and he blocks the punch casually with a single hand


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Gulash said:


> While I agree KN4 seemed more powerfull than any other V2 jin that we saw,the thing about TBB was pretty obvious.At least to me.
> Its said that Jins can only fire TBB in full Biju mode,meaning when the Jins are in control.
> In Narutos case,when he was in KN4 mode,its not he who was in control,it was the Fox.
> So it was Kurama who fired that TBB.


Nope; because if this was the case B would just let Hachibi take control for a second in V2 to use TBB. It’s simply a lack of power


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## Hardcore (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 3- I have to link Human Realm blocking SM Jiriaya’s punch?  It’s in Ch 377 after Fusaku drops the Smoke Bomb; SM Jiriaya punches human realm and he blocks the punch casually with a single hand



sm jiraya is an incomplete sage though

sm naruto casually smashed a path

plus how does yomi numa relate here?


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## Gin Ichimaru (May 7, 2020)

Bee molests


Yomi Numa negged by Raiton streaming


Frog song negged by being a perfect Jin


Speed and strength wise - SM Jiraiya got his punch casually blocked by Human path. Whereas Base Bee sent V1 Raikage fucking flying when they Lariat each other. Also blew a fucking hole in Kisame (same Kisame who didn't have a hole in him after Hirudora)


Bee takes this very handily


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> sm jiraya is an incomplete sage though
> 
> sm naruto casually smashed a path
> 
> plus how does yomi numa relate here?


No SM Naruto didn’t casually smash a Path, let alone Human Path. Deva actually blocks a kick (stronger then a punch) from SM Naruto with minimal damage. And Jiriaya being an incomplete Sage is meaningless to his Physical Strength already being at the level where he can blow away Boss Summons

What this shows is that Human Realm has extraordinary physical strength, but couldn’t put up any resistance against the swamp. Which supports the idea that Yomi Numa functions like Quick Sand or well a normal bog; where physical strength is meaningless against it; and struggling would only make one sink deeper quicker


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> Bee molests
> 
> 
> Yomi Numa negged by Raiton streaming
> ...


Funniest thing to me is the idea that somehow Raiton streaming counters Yomi Numa; and doesn’t just turn the Bog into an even more deadly trap. Like what is that suppose to do guys really


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## Shazam (May 7, 2020)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> Jiraiya molests



Fixed*



Gin Ichimaru said:


> Yomi Numa negged by Raiton streaming



Chakra wheel has been wrong more than once. And YM is an AOE, against a single point of Raiton. We should have doubts it completely negates the jutsu



Gin Ichimaru said:


> Frog song negged by being a perfect Jin



Literally no reason to believe that. Frog Song seperates the body and mind. We know this does not help Bee because A) Nagato wasn't affected by Frog Song, but he lost control over his path bodies B) We have seen perfect jins be literally controlled by genjutsu (Yagura)


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## Gin Ichimaru (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Funniest thing to me is the idea that somehow Raiton streaming counters Yomi Numa; and doesn’t just turn the Bog into an even more deadly trap. Like what is that suppose to do guys really


When Sasuke streamed Raiton into Deidara's doton, did it turn the clay into an even more deadly explosive?

When Kakashi streamed Raiton into Kakuzu's body while he was using Domu, did it turn Domu into an even harder shield?


Raiton counters and nullifies Doton. Pretty simple to understand



Shazam said:


> Chakra wheel has been wrong more than once. And YM is an AOE, against a single point of Raiton. We should have doubts it completely negates the jutsu



He just needs to use it in the mud around him




> Literally no reason to believe that. Frog Song seperates the body and mind. We know this does not help Bee because A) Nagato wasn't affected by Frog Song, but he lost control over his path bodies B) We have seen perfect jins be literally controlled by genjutsu (Yagura)


The sound didn't reach Nagato's ears physically did they? And that's a feat for obito's strength of his genjutsu, not something you can transfer to Jiraiya

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> When Sasuke streamed Raiton into Deidara's doton, did it turn the clay into an even more deadly explosive?
> 
> When Kakashi streamed Raiton into Kakuzu's body while he was using Domu, did it turn Domu into an even harder shield?
> 
> ...


Actually it’s not. Deidara clay appears to be insanely weaker to Raiton more then any elemental weakness we have ever seen (usually the techniques need to be similar levels). Like in Kakashi case his Raikiri was similar level to Domu and therefore it cut through Domu’s defense. 

Now if your telling me B is going to simply flow Raiton into far Higher level Doton Swamp; what exactly is that going to do to the swamp to allow B to escape other then electrify the swamp making it more deadly. Like and you visually describe what you think is going to happen there to allow him to escape the swamp by flowing electricity through it


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## t0xeus (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Your basically saying DB doesn’t fact your eyesight into reaction speed and only records what you can react to when blind; so literally anyone who doesn’t have extrasensory abilities should have a 0. That doesn’t make any sense bruv


It doesn't factor in the eyes that the person doesn't have activated in at all times. It obviously factors in their base speed, not the speed they perform it only when they activate a ninjutsu that only amps their reaction speed in their LOS

In that case it counts in Jiraiya with his SM and with his barrier up since that's where he can react the quickest by that logic



Turrin said:


> 2- Okay so we know Jiriaya has the same physical speed as Sasuke. So if he can predict the trajectory of B’s extremely linear V1 Lariate; he can evade it right?


No.
Speed in DB doesn't only rate physical speed, it also rates reflexes/reaction speed like you yourself said before.

For an example Rinnengan Sasuke has reaction speed high enough to keep up with god tiers, but his physical speed is nowhere close to other god tiers.

They are two different things.



Turrin said:


> 3- Interesting T0x that suddenly distance matters,


When did I ever say or imply it doesn't?



Turrin said:


> but what massive distance are you talking about exactly? B was right next to Kisame here when he headbuts him:
> 
> 
> And Kisame reacts and headbuts him back:
> ...


Bee loses his V1 cloak before their heads touch.



Turrin said:


> Then B stabs at Kisame with his sword:
> 
> 
> And Kisame slash’s B Mid strike:


No.

Samehada, on its own, moves there. It's stated by Bee's friend.



Turrin said:


> 4. We don’t even need to go off the Toad Barrier Technique. He literally was able to etch a complex seal engraving while near death into Fusaku back before Pain could blitz him; yet he can’t form a single seal against them?


From this distance obviously he can:






Turrin said:


> 5. Activation of explosive tags is a physical reaction. Also in the paper ocean scene she controls the tags to cling into Obito as well before he can warp himself away.


- Not moving at all while setting off an explosion with your chakra is a textbook example of mental reaction.

- Oh, but that's not touch kamui. It's Obito's self-kamui which is significantly slower than the one he uses on people he touches. So if you want to use that then go ahead. She can obviously react to that version of Kamui.



Turrin said:


> 6. No we haven’t consistently seen that; you are just underrating those characters that have intercepted other characters.


How so?

Do you think Juugo or Suigetsu can consistently block and parry Shrouded Ei4's attacks?
Or Suigetsu can do that against Bee?
Or Sai can do that against BoS Sasuke?

imo they're all obviously far slower than them, yet they were able to intercept



Turrin said:


> 7. It proves that the speed gaps are not as big as your making them out to be; If Hidan can keep up with 3T users in CQC; who can at times evade V1 B and aim dodge RCM Ei4; that there is very little reason to believe that someone significantly faster then Hidan couldn’t form one seal before being blitz’d by V1-B at apparently any distance according to you


The speed gap between V1 Bee and Sasuke is already significant enough that Sasuke knows he has no chance if Bee ever starts moving in non-direct manners.
So someone keeping up with a slower 3T user, does not prove that he can do the same thing that a superior 3T user could barely do.

You're making several leaps in logic there to get that conclusion. Where did you even get what's the gap between Jiraiya and Hidan in speed? Where did you get how significant is the speed difference between Kakashi and Sasuke with their 3Ts? Etc

And I never said Jiraiya can't make one handseal against Bee no matter the distance. We are talking here about the 20m OP gave us in his stips.


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## Gin Ichimaru (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Actually it’s not. Deidara clay appears to be insanely weaker to Raiton more then any elemental weakness we have ever seen (usually the techniques need to be similar levels). Like in Kakashi case his Raikiri was similar level to Domu and therefore it cut through Domu’s defense.
> 
> Now if your telling me B is going to simply flow Raiton into far Higher level Doton Swamp; what exactly is that going to do to the swamp to allow B to escape other then electrify the swamp making it more deadly. Like and you visually describe what you think is going to happen there to allow him to escape the swamp by flowing electricity through it



can you prove that swamp is for some reason "higher level" than clay bombs? none of this was ever stated, otherwise this is just fanfic. and why do you think sasuke's raiton is not on similar level to deidara's doton?



B channels raiton in the mud around him... it turns to regular mud that anyone can step out of instead of magical mud that sinks and holds onto people



in what world do you think raiton flowing through doton makes the doton stronger? I'm curious what do you think visually happens to it if raiton flows through it

Reactions: Like 1


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## dergeist (May 7, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Oh ur wrong though, Nagato using Preta absorbed an entire V2 cloak on panel near instantly.
> 
> It took a few panels for Pain Preta to get Naruto out SM, and Narutos non Kyuubi reserves don't exceed V2 Bees by any massive margin, if at all.
> 
> It also took Pain Preta quite a bit to absorb COR, Goemon too.



Not just that, when Nagato brought Deva into proximty of himself to use CT he confirmed the closer they are to him the stronger their jutsu. And as you've pointed out if he is using the paths from himself they would be at their strongest.

OT: Swamp does nothing to KB, he can use walk on water jutsu on it if he so chooses. Last time I checked the swamp was liquid and not immune to it.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> It doesn't factor in the eyes that the person doesn't have activated in at all times. It obviously factors in their base speed, not the speed they perform it only when they activate a ninjutsu that only amps their reaction speed in their LOS
> 
> In that case it counts in Jiraiya with his SM and with his barrier up since that's where he can react the quickest by that logic
> 
> ...


1- But I literally showed you that it does factor in Mangekyo Sharingan which is activated even less of the time.

SM isn’t Sharingan; it’s a Jutsu; not a physical trait. Also pretty sure DB2 states it doesn’t count CS. So yeah physical traits like Sharingan must just be counted while Jutsu/transformations aren’t. 

2- Yes it rates both meaning Jiriaya is comparable to Sasuke in both. Your just trying to weesle around this now, don’t be like that my man. And for the record yes Shake does have movement speed comparable to God Tiers. 

3- B loosing his shroud mid attack isn’t going to stop his motion already in progress. It moves on its own to evade B sword swing; but then Kisame slashed upwards himself. 

4- Good so if B is at that distance, which he is, far more then that, being at 20m here, Jiriaya can easily cast Jutsu. Plus considering he did it while near death and it takes far more time then casting seals, we can probably just be reasonable and say he likely could cast seals at almost any range against Pain, assuming Pain isn’t right up in his face 

5- Okay so you agree Konan can physically react to Obito using Kamui to warp himself right? But can’t physical react to Jiriaya’s seals.

6- Yes I do think Juubi / Suigetsu / Sai can do that; and I see no reason why they couldn’t. Do you have more consistent Anti-Feats of those 3 that indicate otherwise? Or are you just overestimating who they are up against and underestimating them. Physical Speed means dick in this series unless the gap is massive; see Boruto vs Monstershiki

7- You mean an injured Sasuke and B; a healthy Sasuke kept up with Ei4. There’s also the fact that B not moving linearly would slow him down as well. 

8- Jiriaya has a 4.5 in speed and Hidan has a 3.5 in speed; and if you don’t want to use the DB; Hidan says his speed is the slowest in Akatsuki; and Jiriaya seal speed as we discussed exceeded the speed of Konan and Kisame.

9- You said he can’t use Yomi Numa in time against B; that’s what this whole entire conversation was about....so now you think he can make one hand-seal before B hits him no matter the distance, we’ll Yomi Numa only takes on seal, so are we done here then?


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> can you prove that swamp is for some reason "higher level" than clay bombs? none of this was ever stated, otherwise this is just fanfic. and why do you think sasuke's raiton is not on similar level to deidara's doton?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why would I need to prove Yomi Numa is > Clay; It’s a higher level then Raiton Flow though, that’s for sure.

Dude it’s not magical mud; it’s a bog/swamp, which doesn’t need magic to sink someone. So when I say what’s Raiton going to do, you seem to not understand that ‘turning it into regular’ mud still results in B sinking to his death


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## Reddan (May 7, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Not just that, when Nagato brought Deva ubto proximty of himself to use CT he confirmed the closer they are to him the stronger their jutsu. And as you've pointed out if he is using the paths from himself they would be at their strongest.
> 
> OT: Swamp does nothing to KB, he can use walk on water jutsu on it if he so chooses. Last time I checked the swamp was liquid and not immune to it.


In addition, Naruto blatantly outright states Nagato's techniques are out of this world, now HE is using them compared to dead puppets.


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## Reddan (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Why would I need to prove Yomi Numa is > Clay; It’s a higher level then Raiton Flow though, that’s for sure.
> 
> Dude it’s not magical mud; it’s a bog/swamp, which doesn’t need magic to sink someone. So when I say what’s Raiton going to do, you seem to not understand that ‘turning it into regular’ mud still results in B sinking to his death


It works and traps ninjas, capable of walking on water, precisely because of the chakra in it. Disable the chakra and the mud has is no longer going to hold ninjas down.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Reddan said:


> It works and traps ninjas, capable of walking on water, precisely because of the chakra in it. Disable the chakra and the mud has is no longer going to hold ninjas down.


Walking on water doesn’t work because by the time you realized the earth has changed into a Bog; you have already sunk; and can’t simply walk your way out


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## Gulash (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Nope; because if this was the case B would just let Hachibi take control for a second in V2 to use TBB. It’s simply a lack of power


About what particulate instance are you talking about?
When was B ever in V2 and wanted to use a TBB?


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Gulash said:


> About what particulate instance are you talking about?
> When was B ever in V2 and wanted to use a TBB?


B outright says it’s impossible to use TBB outside of BM. So therefore it can’t be possible for him to use TBB in V2.


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## Gin Ichimaru (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Why would I need to prove Yomi Numa is > Clay; It’s a higher level then Raiton Flow though, that’s for sure.
> 
> Dude it’s not magical mud; it’s a bog/swamp, which doesn’t need magic to sink someone. So when I say what’s Raiton going to do, you seem to not understand that ‘turning it into regular’ mud still results in B sinking to his death



Can you prove any of that? I don't remember reading that Yomi Numa is higher level than Raiton flow ?? Where is this fanfiction coming from


And did I read that right? Regular mud will sink and kill Bee?


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## Reddan (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Walking on water doesn’t work because by the time you realized the earth has changed into a Bog; you have already sunk; and can’t simply walk your way out


If you can walk on water, you can use the same technique to get out of a bog. The problem is Jiraiya's bog is magical and clearly stops this technique. Cancel out the chakra in the technique and it's just a normal bog, which ninjas will use their chakra to walk out of.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> Can you prove any of that? I don't remember reading that Yomi Numa is higher level than Raiton flow ?? Where is this fanfiction coming from
> 
> 
> And did I read that right? Regular mud will sink and kill Bee?


Elemental Flow is thee most basic application of an Element. It’s the first thing Naruto learns in wind training. Omoi even says he’s not good at Raiton but can still use Raiton Flow. In contrast Yomi Nina is an A-Rank Doton Technique on a ridiculously larger scale then any Raiton Flow B has produced. So the burden of proof is on you to show Raiton Flow is on par with Yomi Numa and B could even cover an area as vast as Yomi Numa with it.


Yes you read that right; Killer-B doesn’t get to defy the laws of physics and how Bogs work (where struggling against them is meaningless, actually makes someone sink faster) just because he’s Killer-B


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Reddan said:


> If you can walk on water, you can use the same technique to get out of a bog. The problem is Jiraiya's bog is magical and clearly stops this technique. Cancel out the chakra in the technique and it's just a normal bog, which ninjas will use their chakra to walk out of.


How can you use the same technique to walk out if they are already sunk with the rest of their body stuck.


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## Reddan (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> How can you use the same technique to walk out if they are already sunk with the rest of their body stuck.


By using chakra to push on the mud and push themselves up. As I said it's the exact same principle, which allows them to walk on water. You put chakra on your feet and simply climb up the mud, because it's solid or liquid, ninjas can walk on it. 

Jiraiya's mud is magical mud, which stops this.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Reddan said:


> By using chakra to push on the mud and push themselves up. As I said it's the exact same principle, which allows them to walk on water. You put chakra on your feet and simply climb up the mud, because it's solid or liquid, ninjas can walk on it.
> 
> Jiraiya's mud is magical mud, which stops this.


Killer-B and most Ninja aren’t Hyuuga; they can’t exude chakra from their entire body just their feet to create a solid platform: the problem is the rest of their body is still stuck and as they shift around and struggle this will shift the mud around everything but their feet and they will sink.

There is no climbing up as they are surrounded by Mud; and can’t move without struggling and causing themselves to sink further


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## t0xeus (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- But I literally showed you that it does factor in Mangekyo Sharingan which is activated even less of the time.


That can easily mean just that it factors in Sharingan/MS techniques in categories like ninjutsu or genjutsu. Not that it factors in Sharingan in physical stats as well.

You'd have to first prove that Sharingan is considered a reaction speed boost, when we know that all it does is help user predict future movement of the enemy.



Turrin said:


> SM isn’t Sharingan; it’s a Jutsu; not a physical trait. Also pretty sure DB2 states it doesn’t count CS. So yeah physical traits like Sharingan must just be counted while Jutsu/transformations aren’t.


So you believe that categories like ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu account only for one's abilities in their base, except for Sharingan users?



Turrin said:


> 2- Yes it rates both meaning Jiriaya is comparable to Sasuke in both. Your just trying to weesle around this now, don’t be like that my man. And for the record yes Shake does have movement speed comparable to God Tiers.


That's simply not true.

For an example ninjutsu stat factors in both knowledge, and proficiency in ninjutsu.

So it's obvious there can be 2 people with 3 in ninjutsu, yet one can have higher knowledge and lower proficiency, and vice-versa.

It doesn't make sense that they have to be equals in all criteria to have the same number in the category.

Unless you have a solid argument for why it has to mean that, there's no reason to assume this.



Turrin said:


> 3- B loosing his shroud mid attack isn’t going to stop his motion already in progress. It moves on its own to evade B sword swing; but then Kisame slashed upwards himself.


1- Fair. Then Kisame did lean his head a bit before V1 Bee finished the headbutt.

2- If we already see Samehada moving on its own and dragging Kisame along with it, then there's no reason to assume it was not just Samehada there as well.
Plus it's not even clear what kind of movement did Kisame make there. Did Bee start moving as he was on top of Samehada and had no way of moving forward? Did Samehada make Bee trip over it? Etc




Turrin said:


> 4- Good so if B is at that distance, which he is, far more then that, being at 20m here, Jiriaya can easily cast Jutsu. Plus considering he did it while near death and it takes far more time then casting seals, we can probably just be reasonable and say he likely could cast seals at almost any range against Pain, assuming Pain isn’t right up in his face


You think the 2 Paths who are standing still are less than 20m apart from Jiraiya? No way. That's like 30m+ considering Jiraiya is like 2m long lol

Paths didn't notice he was writing the message until Jiraiya was already almost finished.

They literally only jump when Jiraiya is pretty much almost done.

Also Paths are not even close to V1 Bee in speed so how does that make sense in the first place or lead us anywhere?



Turrin said:


> 5- Okay so you agree Konan can physically react to Obito using Kamui to warp himself right? But can’t physical react to Jiriaya’s seals.


Konan can react to self-warp.

But Gamayu Endan doesn't require handseals, so I disagree on that point.



Turrin said:


> 6- Yes I do think Juubi / Suigetsu / Sai can do that; and I see no reason why they couldn’t. Do you have more consistent Anti-Feats of those 3 that indicate otherwise? Or are you just overestimating who they are up against and underestimating them. Physical Speed means dick in this series unless the gap is massive; see Boruto vs Monstershiki


For an example Suigetsu is able to defend Sasuke before Bee finishes his jump on him, yet in a direct 1v1 Suigetsu failed to do anything to Bee.

Then we have Kakashi saving Iruka before Deva finishes his attack, but in 1v1 Kakashi doesn't outpace Deva.

EMS Sasuke intercepts JJ Obito who is running towards KCM Naruto (when he falls from Gamakichi), yet then in the next moment JJ Obito effortlessly blitzes Sasuke.



Turrin said:


> 7- You mean an injured Sasuke and B; a healthy Sasuke kept up with Ei4.
> 
> There’s also the fact that B not moving linearly would slow him down as well.


1- Sure. But I don't know how much did injuries play role in that feat against Bee. But I agree Sasuke can keep up with both Bros.

2- That's true.



Turrin said:


> 8- Jiriaya has a 4.5 in speed and Hidan has a 3.5 in speed; and if you don’t want to use the DB; Hidan says his speed is the slowest in Akatsuki; and Jiriaya seal speed as we discussed exceeded the speed of Konan and Kisame.


I agree with all but Jiraiya's handseal speed exceeding Konan and Kisame.

With Konan it's based on the fact you thought Gamayu Endan requires handseals, no? So that's not true

And the Kisame case is referring to what feat exactly ? 



Turrin said:


> 9- You said he can’t use Yomi Numa in time against B; that’s what this whole entire conversation was about....so now you think he can make one hand-seal before B hits him no matter the distance, we’ll Yomi Numa only takes on seal, so are we done here then?


I don't think Jiraiya can make 2 handseals, mould chakra, and create the swamp against Bee from 20m.

If the distance is bigger, then he should be able to do it obviously


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## Hardcore (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> No SM Naruto didn’t casually smash a Path, let alone Human Path. Deva actually blocks a kick (stronger then a punch) from SM Naruto with minimal damage. And Jiriaya being an incomplete Sage is meaningless to his Physical Strength already being at the level where he can blow away Boss Summons
> 
> What this shows is that Human Realm has extraordinary physical strength, but couldn’t put up any resistance against the swamp. Which supports the idea that Yomi Numa functions like Quick Sand or well a normal bog; where physical strength is meaningless against it; and struggling would only make one sink deeper quicker



dude B was portrayed above A, who was the only one believed to be able to physically handle mabui's light transportation, with tsunade needing byakogu to do it..

anyways B can just extend chakra arms/tails to get out


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## Gulash (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Nope; because if this was the case B would just let Hachibi take control for a second in V2 to use TBB. It’s simply a lack of power





Turrin said:


> Nope; because if this was the case B would just let Hachibi take control for a second in V2 to use TBB. It’s simply a lack of power


Also B told us the Jins are only able to use TBB in full Biju mode and we saw Naruto using it in KN4.But it was not him,it was Kurama who was in control.
I said KN4 seemed more powerfull but was he?
Jin who control beast are said to be more powerfull that beast exactly because they can control that power.Not throw it randomly like KN4.
The shockwaves that KN4 produced could be felt all the way too Yamato.
Yamato even felt the need to protect himself with that mokuton.
Now why would be wanna do that?We only ever saw him fight in V2 when there were allies with him no?


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Gulash said:


> Also B told us the Jins are only able to use TBB in full Biju mode and we saw Naruto using it in KN4.But it was not him,it was Kurama who was in control.
> I said KN4 seemed more powerfull but was he?
> Jin who control beast are said to be more powerfull that beast exactly because they can control that power.Not throw it randomly like KN4.
> The shockwaves that KN4 produced could be felt all the way too Yamato.
> ...


Again if the issue was control; then B could give Hachibi control in his V2 form. If it’s impossible for him outside of BM. That means the issue is not control.


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## Reddan (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Killer-B and most Ninja aren’t Hyuuga; they can’t exude chakra from their entire body just their feet to create a solid platform: the problem is the rest of their body is still stuck and as they shift around and struggle this will shift the mud around everything but their feet and they will sink.
> 
> There is no climbing up as they are surrounded by Mud; and can’t move without struggling and causing themselves to sink further


The feet is one of the most difficult places to move chakra too. Using it through your entire body is extremely difficult, but you don't need to be an Hyuga to do this. It's precisely what the Raikage and Sasuke do. Of course fodder ninja might struggle, but not top ninja.

So all you need to do is put chakra in your feet and hands, then climbing out is pretty easy.


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## Gulash (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> B outright says it’s impossible to use TBB outside of BM. So therefore it can’t be possible for him to use TBB in V2.


But he did not say that.He said jins cant and yet we see Naruto use it.But in truth it was not Naruto who used it,he wasnt in control,it was Kurama.
And yes KN4 seemed more powerfull than V2 B,but was it really?
Jins who control their beast are said to be more powerfull that beast themseleves precisely because than can control and focus all that power.Remeber Obito?
KN4 shockwaves could be felt all the way to Yamato.He even thought he should  protect himself with mokuton.
Now why would B do something like that?We only ever so him fight in V2 when he had friend around.So i dont think its about power at all.


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## Gulash (May 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Again if the issue was control; then B could give Hachibi control in his V2 form. If it’s impossible for him outside of BM. That means the issue is not control.


Thats why i asked about what instance are you talking about?
B vs Kisame?
B vs Nagato?
For sure TBB from full Biju should be more powerfull that TBB from V2,like we saw with KN4.
Against Nagatos Chibaku he prolly did not wanted to take risk and fire an inferior aTBB and against Kisame we all know why he did not use it.


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## Troyse22 (May 7, 2020)

Ayala said:


> Absorbing internal reserves is more difficult than a superficial chakra cloak



Baseless. Kisame absorbed the entirety of Bees and Gyukis reserves in a couple of hits.



Ayala said:


> Nagato also took a bit to absorb a normal Rasengan thrown from Naruto, a bit less than what Preta path required to absorb the superior FRS.



Nagato did it in one panel.


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## Troyse22 (May 7, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Not just that, when Nagato brought Deva into proximty of himself to use CT he confirmed the closer they are to him the stronger their jutsu. And as you've pointed out if he is using the paths from himself they would be at their strongest.



Basically this @Ayala 

The outer path clearly dilutes some of the Rinnegans power.


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## t0xeus (May 7, 2020)

Naruto outright states that the Rinnengan abilities are stronger and faster when Nagato is the one using them btw
@Troyse22

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Naruto outright states that the Rinnengan abilities are stronger and faster when Nagato is the one using them btw
> @Troyse22



This.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> That can easily mean just that it factors in Sharingan/MS techniques in categories like ninjutsu or genjutsu. Not that it factors in Sharingan in physical stats as well.
> 
> You'd have to first prove that Sharingan is considered a reaction speed boost, when we know that all it does is help user predict future movement of the enemy.
> 
> ...


1- Yeah so how can it factor in Mangekyo for Ninjutsu and Genjutsu; if Mangekyo is not always active.

2- Or it’s just that they are a 3 in both categories; hence why someone wouldn’t create 2 separate categories in the first place; unlike every other stat that is divided into a separate category 

3- I don’t see how the second point even matters as you conceded the first. So glad we agree that someone relativistic to V1 Bs speed could not blitz Jiriaya before he could finish hand-seals. Are we done here?

4- Come on now Jiriaya was literally half dead and doing something far more complex then seals. Your really going to act like a Jiriaya having a slight head start here means anything? Do you need me to find all the examples of characters with far slower hand-seal speed then Jiriaya being able to weave hand signs before Pain can hit them?

5- Jiriaya is just weaving hand-signs too quick for Konan to see; we know his Wild Lions mane Technique requires Hand-seals and he uses that as well

6- Yeah most of these are just due to their enemies having superior Taijutsu skill or the character using Shunshin which isn’t physical speed

7- Jiriaya is able to Cast Summoning before he completes his swing against Naruto;

He’s shown to be able to complete many seals before Kisame can hit Naruto again:

8- You just said he could form one seal at any range against B; now he can’t form 2 at 20m. Also Yomi Numa only takes one seal. Also you aware that Jiriaya doesn’t have to sit there and watch B power up to V1 and charge at him; he can be jumping backwards while forming seals to create even further distance

Edit: And Another example I can give you Tox; is that Death Bed Orochimaru is able to react to CS 3T Sasuke attack; and Jiriaya while drugged was able to cast seals before a less weekened Orochimaru could hit him in CQC (not 20m). So that’s a very clear example showing the raw speed of Jiriaya Hand-Seals.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> dude B was portrayed above A, who was the only one believed to be able to physically handle mabui's light transportation, with tsunade needing byakogu to do it..
> 
> anyways B can just extend chakra arms/tails to get out


Literally durability is irrelevant to this discussion so I have no clue why your bringing up the Mabui fear.

B is unlikely to be able to use Chakra Claw extension since he always needs to rely on his Tentacles; but even if he used say a Tentacle or a Chakra Claw; he has zero feats of Tentacles or Chakra claws extending the scope of Jiriaya’s swamp. Actually no Jin has that in V2


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Gulash said:


> Thats why i asked about what instance are you talking about?
> B vs Kisame?
> B vs Nagato?
> For sure TBB from full Biju should be more powerfull that TBB from V2,like we saw with KN4.
> Against Nagatos Chibaku he prolly did not wanted to take risk and fire an inferior aTBB and against Kisame we all know why he did not use it.


There doesn’t need to be an instance; if someone says something is impossible; it’s impossible. So if B considers it impossible then obviously he can’t do it even if the Hachibi took over


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## Turrin (May 7, 2020)

Reddan said:


> The feet is one of the most difficult places to move chakra too. Using it through your entire body is extremely difficult, but you don't need to be an Hyuga to do this. It's precisely what the Raikage and Sasuke do. Of course fodder ninja might struggle, but not top ninja.
> 
> So all you need to do is put chakra in your feet and hands, then climbing out is pretty easy.


Raikage and Sasuke just excuse raw chakra they don’t control it. 

And no it wouldn’t work that way; as their arms and legs would still be stuck. The other issue is that the Mud would shift around as they moved their body within and they would still sink further into the swamp.


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## Gulash (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> There doesn’t need to be an instance; if someone says something is impossible; it’s impossible. So if B considers it impossible then obviously he can’t do it even if the Hachibi took over


Hachibi told that host can only use TBB in full Biju mode.So for a Jin is impossible but we see KN4 and KN6 use it.Thats because it was not host who did it.It was the beast who was in control.
So if Hachibi took over it wouldnt be host who is using TBB,it would be Hachibi.
You asked why B did not switch with Hachibi and used TBB and i asked you when,because there was never an instance where that was needed.
Hachibi explained it all,and its pretty clear,so it has nothing to do with power.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Reddan (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Raikage and Sasuke just excuse raw chakra they don’t control it.


Raikages and Sasuke not only control the chakra they release they even change the nature. 


> And no it wouldn’t work that way; as their arms and legs would still be stuck. The other issue is that the Mud would shift around as they moved their body within and they would still sink further into the swamp.


Your logic is completely wrong. They wouldn't be sinking, because they can push off the mud. They can use chakra to push down on water without displacing it, mud is nothing.


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## Draco Bolton (May 8, 2020)

I gave my opinion in the other topic. Even assuming that SM Jiraya has all the excuses in the world for not defeating Human Path (unlike SM Naruto with Preta), that he's better than Taka Sasuke (I think overall Jiraya is better than him) who was destroyed by Base Bee... Even assuming all that, I don't see SM Jiraya doing infinitely better than Taka Sasuke against Base Bee. I still see Base Bee having an advantage in taijutsu (very slighty advantage in the worst case for him).

Even  SM Jiraya strongest attacks as COR, I don't necessarily see them succeeding and even if Jiraya create it at close range. Given the reflexes Bee showed against Minato (against FTG), given his level of taijutsu, I see him able to dodge this kind of attack (a COR) and then send his raitons pencils to Jiraya (who won't be able to dodge since he'll always have his COR activated and will be in full motion).

But Jiraya remains versatile, dangerous so there's a chance Base Bee will be trolled (I don't see Jiraya managing to activate the frog song, though).

But to avoid that he can switch to his partial transformations (V1, V2) and there he will take back the advantage. 

For me Base Bee high diff Jiraya. V1/V2 Bee low diff.

Overall Bee mid diff.

Edit: With Full knowledge (so he know Jiraya strongest assets)+Samehada (still good against some ninjutsu) and Bee low-mid diff.

Edit 2: Jiraya start in base. I didn't even see that. I thought it was SM Jiraya.

So with Base Jiraya (excluding Base Yomi Noma, that goes without saying).

Well it's a massacre, an extermination, Bee destroys him, Base Jiraya has 0 chance against him and he will be put under enormous pressure. And if (by some kind of miracle) Jiraya manages to activate SM (by sacrificing his toad army, by putting himself solidly in defense) then we'll have the scenario I described above.

Overall Bee low diff.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

Reddan said:


> Raikages and Sasuke not only control the chakra they release they even change the nature.
> 
> Your logic is completely wrong. They wouldn't be sinking, because they can push off the mud. They can use chakra to push down on water without displacing it, mud is nothing.


1- No they don’t control the chakra; they just exude it from their body and change it’s nature 

2- There are two issues with this. Water Walking works by channeling chakra to your feet that counter balances your weight. The reason you can walk on water and jump is because you are essentially weightless. 

So if your weightless in a sinking swamp your still going to be sinking. Being weightless is also not going to help you to move out of a sinking swamp; where the rest of your limbs are already stuck inside the sinking swamp.

You keep seeming to think well the target can channel chakra to his hands and climb out; but all the person is doing when channeling chakra to their hands is sticking to swamp even more which is sinking; there is no way for them to build up momentum as if they try to struggle to break free they will sink even more.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

Gulash said:


> Hachibi told that host can only use TBB in full Biju mode.So for a Jin is impossible but we see KN4 and KN6 use it.Thats because it was not host who did it.It was the beast who was in control.
> So if Hachibi took over it wouldnt be host who is using TBB,it would be Hachibi.
> You asked why B did not switch with Hachibi and used TBB and i asked you when,because there was never an instance where that was needed.
> Hachibi explained it all,and its pretty clear,so it has nothing to do with power.


Hachibi didn’t say for the Host it’s impossible. He says it’s impossible outside of BM period:


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## t0xeus (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Yeah so how can it factor in Mangekyo for Ninjutsu and Genjutsu; if Mangekyo is not always active.


What?
How can you factor any ninjutsu into ninjutsu stat when they are not always active?



Turrin said:


> 2- Or it’s just that they are a 3 in both categories; hence why someone wouldn’t create 2 separate categories in the first place; unlike every other stat that is divided into a separate category


That doesn't work.

For an example Tsunade has 5 in taijutsu just like Gai/Lee, yet her fighting style is very one-dimensional and even P1 Kabuto is able to outplay her in CQC.




Turrin said:


> 3- I don’t see how the second point even matters as you conceded the first. So glad we agree that someone relativistic to V1 Bs speed could not blitz Jiriaya before he could finish hand-seals. Are we done here?


No, I told you that Kisame didn't move his head as much as Bee did. Kisame's head is just a little bit leaned, while Bee is fully extended for the headbutt. How is that relativistic?

Plus Bee going at full speed for Lariat is obviously not going to be comparable in speed to headbutting someone from a static position.



Turrin said:


> 4- Come on now Jiriaya was literally half dead and doing something far more complex then seals. Your really going to act like a Jiriaya having a slight head start here means anything? Do you need me to find all the examples of characters with far slower hand-seal speed then Jiriaya being able to weave hand signs before Pain can hit them?


I agree Jiraiya can use handseal from that distance before Pain can hit him, so no.



Turrin said:


> 5- Jiriaya is just weaving hand-signs too quick for Konan to see; we know his Wild Lions mane Technique requires Hand-seals and he uses that as well


We literally see he is touching ground when he casts it, and before that he is mid-roll dodging her papers, so he wouldn't be able to make handseals. It doesn't require handseals, nothing suggests that.

And it's stated by Jiraiya that she can't unfold her paper when it's soaked in oil, so her being unable to do anything about Lion's Mane is obvious as she only uses paper for her defense/attacks.





Turrin said:


> 6- Yeah most of these are just due to their enemies having superior Taijutsu skill or the character using Shunshin which isn’t physical speed


JJ Obito or Tendo don't have better taijutsu skill than EMS Sasuke or Kakashi respectively.



Turrin said:


> 7- Jiriaya is able to Cast Summoning before he completes his swing against Naruto;
> 
> 
> He’s shown to be able to complete many seals before Kisame can hit Naruto again:


1- We don't know when did Jiraiya initiate summoning jutsu.

2- Yes, I agree Jiraiya can use in time handseals before Kisame runs several meters.



Turrin said:


> 8- *You just said he could form one seal at any range against B;* now he can’t form 2 at 20m. Also Yomi Numa only takes one seal. Also you aware that Jiriaya doesn’t have to sit there and watch B power up to V1 and charge at him; he can be jumping backwards while forming seals to create even further distance


Where did I say the bolded?

Naruto wikia said 2 handseals, so I went with that. Does he use just one in the manga?

I am aware of that. But Bee has full knowledge, so if he feels like Yomi Numa is a threat to him, then he can simply leap/jump at Jiraiya and avoid touching Yomi Numa in the first place.



Turrin said:


> Edit: And Another example I can give you Tox; is that Death Bed Orochimaru is able to react to CS 3T Sasuke attack; and Jiriaya while drugged was able to cast seals before a less weekened Orochimaru could hit him in CQC (not 20m). So that’s a very clear example showing the raw speed of Jiriaya Hand-Seals.


You're confusing reaction speed with physical speed though

If Oro is able to react against Sasuke, it doesn't mean he is blitzing everyone below Sasuke


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> What?
> How can you factor any ninjutsu into ninjutsu stat when they are not always active?
> 
> 
> ...


1- Because the Ninjutsu / Genjutsu stats aren’t measuring the power or effects of Ninjutsu/Genjutsu. They are measuring the persons skill with it. Mangekyo will increase these stats because Mangekyo when activated acts as a stat buff increasing someone’s Ninjutsu/Genjutsu skill to be able to cast more powerful Illusions and Ninjutsu. Hence we know the DB is accounting for Dojutsu even though they aren’t active all the time

2- I don’t understand how your example of Tsunade and Gai relates to what we’re talking about here. 

3- B was already mid head butt by the time Kisame even started to react to it; and there was hardly any distance between them. Regardless of whether B is marginally moving more there; Kisame needs to be close to B in speed to do what he did. 

Lariate charge will be faster but also requires more distance to build that momentum; so that means more time to react as well

4- Okay so from a distance of 20m he can use hand-seals against someone (Pain) who scales to V1 B; so are we done here? 

5- Your talking about the Oil Jutsu I’m talking about Wild Lions mane; his hair technique he uses to bind Konan; every other time he uses it it takes hand-seals

6- JJ Obito got Sasuke by using Shunshin. Where is your proof Deva Path doesn’t have better Taijutsu then Kakashi? 

7- Okay so Jiriaya can use many hand-seals before someone relativistic to B can cover a few feet (not meters feet); and here its B having to cross 20m; so Jiriaya should be able to easily form a single hand-seal for Yomi Numa; Are we done here?

8- Sorry I think I misinterpreted your post about the hand seal thing. 

But yes he only uses one Seal in the Manga.

If B jumps at Jiriaya; then Jiriaya can just Jump backwards himself while casting Yomi Numa on the spot he was at before, and then B lands in the spot he is stuck in the swamp; and Jiriaya is fine; since B can’t change his trajectory mid jump. 

10- Dude Orochimaru moves out of the way of Sasuke’s attack; that’s reaction speed and movement speed. And I don’t think Orochimaru is blitzing everyone below CS 3T Sasuke; because like I said Speed doesn’t mean dick unless the gaps are absurdly massive. Just like I gave you the examples of Yamato and Hidan keeping up with 3T Sasuke and 3T Kakashi despite being significantly slower then them.

Also just think about for a second how much faster you need to be to stop Hand-Seals. If Orochimaru couldn’t stop Jiriaya from using Hand-Seals when both are normally the same speed and Jiriaya is drugged. I’m actually thinking about making a thread about how absurdly fast Mifune IAI Technique needs to be to spot Hand-Seals


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## t0xeus (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Because the Ninjutsu / Genjutsu stats aren’t measuring the power or effects of Ninjutsu/Genjutsu. They are measuring the persons skill with it. Mangekyo will increase these stats because Mangekyo when activated acts as a stat buff increasing someone’s Ninjutsu/Genjutsu skill to be able to cast more powerful Illusions and Ninjutsu. Hence we know the DB is accounting for Dojutsu even though they aren’t active all the time
> 
> 2- I don’t understand how your example of Tsunade and Gai relates to what we’re talking about here.


Ninjutsu, genjutsu stats just factor in all their ninjutsu and genjutsu techniques from their arsenal.

There is no reason for DB to not count Tsukuyomi etc in the genjutsu stat just because Base Itachi can't use it.

That makes no sense



Turrin said:


> 3- B was already mid head butt by the time Kisame even started to react to it; and there was hardly any distance between them. Regardless of whether B is marginally moving more there; Kisame needs to be close to B in speed to do what he did.
> 
> Lariate charge will be faster but also requires more distance to build that momentum; so that means more time to react as well


If Kisame is able to react decently to headbutt from such a small distance, while he struggles to make a significant reaction against V1 Bee's Lariat attempts, then all it tells us is that headbutt is significantly slower than Lariat.

It doesn't somehow mean that Kisame is now operating at the same speed as V1 Bee during Lariat.



Turrin said:


> 4- Okay so from a distance of 20m he can use hand-seals against someone (Pain) who scales to V1 B; so are we done here?


Pain doesn't scale to V1 Bee though

Sasuke could barely dodge V1 Bee rushing at him. Pain has no speed feats on that level



Turrin said:


> 5- Your talking about the Oil Jutsu I’m talking about Wild Lions mane; his hair technique he uses to bind Konan; every other time he uses it it takes hand-seals


I know, but I am saying that Konan soaked in oil can't defend against the hair technqiue

So you're saying she couldn't react to it, while the reality is that she had no option of defending or attacking since her paper was unusable



Turrin said:


> 6- JJ Obito got Sasuke by using Shunshin. Where is your proof Deva Path doesn’t have better Taijutsu then Kakashi?


1- Well it's impossible to tell when he's using Shunshin or not, but it's plausible explanation why he'd be able to blitz there, so you might be right

2- Deva's taijutsu skill would play no role in that scenario anyways. Kakashi didn't seem to have any kind of speed advantage in their on-panel bouts



Turrin said:


> 7- Okay so Jiriaya can use many hand-seals before someone relativistic to B can cover a few feet (not meters feet); and here its B having to cross 20m; so Jiriaya should be able to easily form a single hand-seal for Yomi Numa; Are we done here?


Again, Kisame is relativistic to Bee's headbutt

Not to Lariat



Turrin said:


> 8- Sorry I think I misinterpreted your post about the hand seal thing.
> 
> But yes he only uses one Seal in the Manga.
> 
> If B jumps at Jiriaya; then Jiriaya can just Jump backwards himself while casting Yomi Numa on the spot he was at before, and then B lands in the spot he is stuck in the swamp; and Jiriaya is fine; since B can’t change his trajectory mid jump.


Np

Bee can easily cover the entire distance between him and Jiraiya in one jump

He covered dozens meters long distance between Jugo&Co and the mountain that he initiated his jump from

Jiraiya would need to jump only after Bee already makes his jump for this to work, but he is not getting that high into the air for Bee to not be able to land his hit even if Jiraiya is a bit above him

Jiraiya doesn't jump dozens of meter high faster than V1 Bee can cover 20m

Not to mention Bee can use his Raiton blades if he needs more range on his attacks



Turrin said:


> 10- Dude Orochimaru moves out of the way of Sasuke’s attack; that’s reaction speed and movement speed. And I don’t think Orochimaru is blitzing everyone below CS 3T Sasuke; because like I said Speed doesn’t mean dick unless the gaps are absurdly massive. Just like I gave you the examples of Yamato and Hidan keeping up with 3T Sasuke and 3T Kakashi despite being significantly slower then them.


His reaction speed is fair play

But his physical speed was of his true form, which could easily be faster than when he is just manipulating his human form

Yamato blocking Sasuke's attack on Sakura in time doesn't mean he can dodge his attacks though.

Hidan and Kakashi case is easily explained by Hidan having a CQC advantage (scythe > kunai) and Kakashi multitasking (protecting Team Asuma, and watching Kakuzu's masks)

There's a reason why these things happen mainly in teamfights and not in 1v1s. In 1v1, speed matters A LOT. We see this all the time in fights of speedsters like Sasuke, Itachi, KCM Naruto etc.



Turrin said:


> Also just think about for a second how much faster you need to be to stop Hand-Seals. If Orochimaru couldn’t stop Jiriaya from using Hand-Seals when both are normally the same speed and Jiriaya is drugged. I’m actually thinking about making a thread about how absurdly fast Mifune IAI Technique needs to be to spot Hand-Seals


I agree you need to be much faster than the opponent. But you're overestimating the gap here imo.

I think that by feats, V1 Bee is faster than all the names mentioned here, and by a considerable amount.

Definitely the gap is bigger than between Ei4 and KCM Naruto, where the former could stop the latter's one handseal needed for Kage Bunshin.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Ninjutsu, genjutsu stats just factor in all their ninjutsu and genjutsu techniques from their arsenal.
> 
> There is no reason for DB to not count Tsukuyomi etc in the genjutsu stat just because Base Itachi can't use it.
> 
> ...


1- Tox that’s literally not what the stat measures; I already told you it measures proficiency with Ninjutsu not the Techniques themselves

2- When did Kisame ever struggled to react to V1 Lariate? I mean Kisame was on the ground regenerate from his chest caving in and B still couldn’t stop him from Making Seals.

3- Again your going off injured Sasuke. Healthy Sasuke aim dodged RCM Ei4 >= V1 B, and 3T Kakashi, who Pain kept up, who kept up with  Sasuke; has the same DB stat and 3T. I feel like we have already covered this. Not to mention we 3T Kakashi kept up with V2 Jins without an issue too.

4- Fair enough, I’ll give you the Kona point

5- It was a CQC encounter between Kakashi and Deva; of course Taijutsu skill plays a role

6- I dont see why Jiriaya would need to jump more then a few feet above B; B isn’t some massive object; he is person size; so he just needs to jump backwards and achieve a height greater then a person; this is easy as hell for most Ninja. Juugo was able to easily do this as well against B. The rest of this boils down to overestimating Bs speed

7-

A) Please show me proof Orochimaru WSM on his deathbed is faster then his human form

B) Yamato was able to jump in-front of Sakura and draw his Kunai; but can’t evade that attack, makes no sense

C) The small reach advantage of Hidan scythe makes such a big difference but 20m distance gap doesn’t, makes no sense

D) Team battles don’t enhance speed; and no we see this shit in 1v1 all the time. Literally one of these examples is a 1v1.


8- Ei4 did not stop the hand-seal; we blatantly  see Naruto has already formed the hand seal before Ei4 even gets close to landing his attack. B just steps in between both of them and they both stop fighting.

Now let’s look at some other examples:

Dodai is able to form hand-seals and cough out a rubber ball before Ei3 hits him, RCM Ei3 compared directly to RCM Ei4 by KCM Naruto and shown to avoid KCM Naruto attacks:

Konohamaru from a much smaller distance then 20m is able to easily form hand-seals before a charging Naraka Path reaches him:

Fodder Bandana Dude is able to cast Hand-Seals before a charging Deva Path reaches him :

Gaara was able to slam his hand to the ground and raise a sand wall (which takes more physical motion then clasping your hands together for a seal): before a charming CS2 Kimimaro reaches him over a far smaller distance then 20m:


So basically the speed gap between Bs and Jiriaya has to be Massively greater then the speed gap between:

1- RCM Ei4 and Rando Cloud Jonin Dodai; who wasn’t even made a Division Commander or Kage Guard; and likely scales below C and Darui

2- Konohamaru (Nigh fodder) and  Pain Realms which have kept up with Kakashi / SM Users

3- Actual Fodder and Pain Realms

4- SRA Gaara and Kimmimaro; which we can actually measure the gap here, Gaara having a 3 in speed and Kimi having a 4.5 in Base; and further enhanced with CS.

Yet V1-B who honestly has never blitz’d anyone is that much more massively faster then Jiriaya. Come on dude....


----------



## Gulash (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Hachibi didn’t say for the Host it’s impossible. He says it’s impossible outside of BM period:


Dont really know how to post link but its chapter 519.
He clearly says its impossible for the host outside Biju mode.Maybe its wrong translation.
We see KN4 use it and your explanation is hes more powerfull.
To me it seems pretty obvious,and like hachibi said,its impossible for host.But in KN4 and KN6 case it was Kurama who was in control.
It was Kurama who fired those TBB.
Pretty simple.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

Gulash said:


> Dont really know how to post link but its chapter 519.
> He clearly says its impossible for the host outside Biju mode.Maybe its wrong translation.
> We see KN4 use it and your explanation is hes more powerfull.
> To me it seems pretty obvious,and like hachibi said,its impossible for host.But in KN4 and KN6 case it was Kurama who was in control.
> ...


I just posted you a link to him saying it’s impossible in general not for the host. The other translations all have Hachibi saying you can’t do it unless your in Bijuu Mode. 

Sorry but what your think is obvious doesn’t outweigh canon.


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## Ayala (May 8, 2020)

@Troyse22 

It just came to me, that both Asura and B were compared, when they each launched Animal and Gai using their arms. They both seemingly pulled about the same feat, only that B needed partial transformation to pull it out.


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## Gulash (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I just posted you a link to him saying it’s impossible in general not for the host. The other translations all have Hachibi saying you can’t do it unless your in Bijuu Mode.
> 
> Sorry but what your think is obvious doesn’t outweigh canon.


But he never said its impossible in general youre just making things up.
He said to Naruto,who is a host,that is impossible without going full Biju.And before that,literally the same chapter,Hachibi told B that a host can only do it in full Biju.
I mean you said its impossible but we see KN4 doing it.So why is that?Power?That was never stated,you just made it up and are calling it canon.
You know what was stated?Host can use TBB only in full Biju mode meaning when host is actually in control.Just read the chapter.
I mean it cant be more clear why KN4 was able to use TBB.
Just use some common sense.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

Gulash said:


> But he never said its impossible in general youre just making things up.
> He said to Naruto,who is a host,that is impossible without going full Biju.And before that,literally the same chapter,Hachibi told B that a host can only do it in full Biju.
> I mean you said its impossible but we see KN4 doing it.So why is that?Power?That was never stated,you just made it up and are calling it canon.
> You know what was stated?Host can use TBB only in full Biju mode meaning when host is actually in control.Just read the chapter.
> ...


Show me a translation where it says it’s impossible *for the Host. Literally no translation I have seen mentions the host. But if you want I can check the raw *


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## t0xeus (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Now let’s look at some other examples:
> 
> Dodai is able to form hand-seals and cough out a rubber ball before Ei3 hits him, RCM Ei3 compared directly to RCM Ei4 by KCM Naruto and shown to avoid KCM Naruto attacks:


To be fair KCM Naruto does call Dodai fast after this.

So the fact is that what Dodai did IS impressive. It's not supposed to be seen as something any ninja of his caliber should be able to do.



Turrin said:


> So basically the speed gap between Bs and Jiriaya has to be Massively greater then the speed gap between:
> 
> 1- RCM Ei4 and Rando Cloud Jonin Dodai; who wasn’t even made a Division Commander or Kage Guard; and likely scales below C and Darui
> 
> ...


Pains are not that fast. They could keep up with Kakashi and SM users. But that has more to do with reaction speed than physical speed. They mainly kept up by using ninjutsu, not by dodging attacks etc.

Gaara's feat is fair

I'd still consider the gap between Base Jiraiya and v1 Bee in physical speed considerably higher than in any of the examples you mentioned


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> To be fair KCM Naruto does call Dodai fast after this.
> 
> So the fact is that what Dodai did IS impressive. It's not supposed to be seen as something any ninja of his caliber should be able to do.
> 
> ...


1- Dodai being fast for his level, Jonin, still indicates someone can get off hand-seals against someone massively faster then them; unless you think Dodai speed is on par with RCM Ei3

2- They need to be able to physical move to intercept attacks and evade hits; so it’s not just reaction speed. Also we’re talking about Konohamaru and Fodder 

3- You think it’s higher then the gap between a 3 in Speed and a 4.5 enhanced with CS further? That’s a huge gap; and the distance was smaller there.

Anyway I think at this point the burden of proof is on you to show feats of B blitzing hand-seals or even blitzing at all Shinobi as fast as Jiriaya


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## t0xeus (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Dodai being fast for his level, Jonin, still indicates someone can get off hand-seals against someone massively faster then them; unless you think Dodai speed is on par with RCM Ei3


It isn't, but the gap isn't as big as between average jonin and Ei3.

Which means we don't know how big the gap is, so saying that the gap between V1 Bee and Jiraiya is smaller is baseless in this case.



Turrin said:


> 2- They need to be able to physical move to intercept attacks and evade hits; so it’s not just reaction speed. Also we’re talking about Konohamaru and Fodder


So what feat exactly you have in mind here?

I just remember Paths blocking hits, and using jutsus in time. I don't remember them doing anything that would make them appear as speedsters besides Deva with his dodging FRS feat

The physically fittest Path, Deva, was not even able to do anything significant to Base Naruto in their CQC exchange they had. I don't think their physical speed is that impressive



Turrin said:


> 3- You think it’s higher then the gap between a 3 in Speed and a 4.5 enhanced with CS further? That’s a huge gap; and the distance was smaller there.


I find it hard to measure speed solely in DB stats and go with that blindly when feats show otherwise.

Even P2 Gaara has 3 in speed, yet he can react to C3 during mid-explosion. His reaction speed is definitely higher than the likes of Base Lee by feats, who trumps Gaara in speed by 1.5 points in the DB.

Not to say that that feat isn't legit tho. I just don't see the 1.5 diff in stats as anything ironclad



Turrin said:


> Anyway I think at this point the burden of proof is on you to show feats of B blitzing hand-seals or even blitzing at all Shinobi as fast as Jiriaya


The proof is that a faster shinobi, 3T Sasuke, already managed only to barely dodge V1 Bee and admitted that without Sharingan or without Bee moving linearly, he is not even going to be able to mentally perceive him moving:

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




And another proof is that Zetsu clone transformed into Kisame couldn't even finish his 1st out of 3 handseals for Daikodan before getting Lariated by V1 Bee (and Ei4)

And Bee didn't think it was weird, so there was no significant difference in the reaction speed between Zetsu clone and real Kisame


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## Shazam (May 8, 2020)

Full Powered Sannin or Prepped > BM Bee > SM Jiraiya > Base Jiraiya >= V2 Bee > V1 Bee > Base Bee


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

@t0xeus

You just debunked your own argument more effectively then I could.

“And another proof is that Zetsu clone transformed into Kisame couldn't even finish his 1st out of 3 handseals for Daikodan before getting Lariated by V1 Bee (and Ei4)”

White Zetsu a total Fodder who gets owned by everyone in the alliance was able to form a hand-seal in the same time frame that V1 B and RCM Ei4 can hit him with Lariate, despite him being right next to them in CQC. Yet your telling me at 20M Jiriaya can’t form a single hand-seal:

Edit: B never saw Kisame use Hand-Seals except when he was half dead. Which he also succeeded in casting before B could do anything. So let’s not even try to play the card that fodder Zetsu have the same seal speed as the ones they are copying; if they could copy legendary Ninja to that extent Zetsu would have solo’d the war just copying Kisame (100K Kisame lol)


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## t0xeus (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> @t0xeus
> 
> You just debunked your own argument more effectively then I could.
> 
> ...


The key part is that Bee, who fought Kisame, did not find it even a little bit weird that the Zetsukisame got blitzed before making more than one handseal.

If it was so unthinkable for V1 Bee to have blitzing speeds even against kages, then they wouldn't act so casual about it.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> The key part is that Bee, who fought Kisame, did not find it even a little bit weird that the Zetsukisame got blitzed before making more than one handseal.
> 
> If it was so unthinkable for V1 Bee to have blitzing speeds even against kages, then they wouldn't act so casual about it.


Yeah because B only saw Kisame use seals when Kisame was half dead. And here Kisame just had his chakra leached by Samehada. It’s also B whose an idiot at times.

And let’s say the seal speed scales to even Kisame; Kisame isn’t some seal master, so him being able to form 1 seal at like 2m away from B; but Jiriaya not being able to form one at 20m; is fairly absurd even then.


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## t0xeus (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yeah because B only saw Kisame use seals when Kisame was half dead. And here Kisame just had his chakra leached by Samehada. It’s also B whose an idiot at times.





> And let’s say the seal speed scales to even Kisame; Kisame isn’t some seal master, so him being able to form 1 seal at like 2m away from B; but Jiriaya not being able to form one at 20m; is fairly absurd even then.


They have an idea of how good S-rank Akatsuki criminals are, yet nobody said "lol what a fodder, he couldn't even use more than one handseal in time"

The scene is obviously there to show how fast Bee and Ei4 are, not to show that Zetsusame is bad at handseals.. especially when him failing doesn't create any sort of reactions in anyone

Also consider that clone had headstart. He already has his handseal formed when Bee and Ei4 are moving their feet


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## Gulash (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Show me a translation where it says it’s impossible *for the Host. Literally no translation I have seen mentions the host. But if you want I can check the raw *



I read it here.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> They have an idea of how good S-rank Akatsuki criminals are, yet nobody said "lol what a fodder, he couldn't even use more than one handseal in time"
> 
> The scene is obviously there to show how fast Bee and Ei4 are, not to show that Zetsusame is bad at handseals.. especially when him failing doesn't create any sort of reactions in anyone
> 
> Also consider that clone had headstart. He already has his handseal formed when Bee and Ei4 are moving their feet


Ei4 didn’t know anything about Kisame; and Killer-B just saw Samehada leech Kisame stamina, and he’s aware of how much that can exhaust someone first hand.

The scene shows they are fast the same way KCM Naruto blitz Zetsu clones showed his speed. Zetsu clones probably aren’t ridiculously slow; but to say they are equal to legendary Ninja is a stretch and half.

Zetsu clone did not have his hands already clasped together, you can see the motion lines in the middle panel.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

Gulash said:


> I read it here.


Yeah that translation is bad; I checked the raw; there is no “You” just that it’s impossible outside of Bijuu Transformation


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## Ishmael (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> In-fact I’m honestly not sure what V1/2 B can even do against Yomi Numa.



what does jiraiya has that’s going to affect that cloak? Not only that but bee isn’t dumb and has a beast to aid him in more tactical affair. Assuming that’s what will happen I’m sure he’d use ration to counter yomi Numa.


There’s also the fact of bee not having to worry about that because it isn’t ic for jiraiya to use yomi numa I’m leveled out situations. Meaning 1v1 situations and no summons out. 

on topic: Bee wins, he’s far more durable, stronger, faster and on a technique stand point his attacks have more lethal consequences. 

Mid difficulty at most. He’s dealing with jiraiya quicker than pein did though for sure.


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## Ishmael (May 8, 2020)

J★J♥ said:


> Bee cant fight Jiraya without BM. He lost to Kisame.



poor post. Considering the circumstances in which bee was in against kisame and the fact that worse would happen to jiraiya.


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## Ishmael (May 8, 2020)

jiraiya lost a arm to pein, Asura right? Yeah he’s getting decapitated or losing a limb in whatever spot bee hits him. Not considering bees a skilled and extremely fast kenjutsu user, jiraiya is going to face heavy pressure. Stop the fanfic and look at the facts. Bee stalemated his brother  and even overpowered later on, jiraiya is a dead man.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

Samael said:


> what does jiraiya has that’s going to affect that cloak? Not only that but bee isn’t dumb and has a beast to aid him in more tactical affair. Assuming that’s what will happen I’m sure he’d use ration to counter yomi Numa.
> 
> 
> There’s also the fact of bee not having to worry about that because it isn’t ic for jiraiya to use yomi numa I’m leveled out situations. Meaning 1v1 situations and no summons out.
> ...


I’ve already covered the but Raiton though argument please go see my other posts


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## t0xeus (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Ei4 didn’t know anything about Kisame; and Killer-B just saw Samehada leech Kisame stamina, and he’s aware of how much that can exhaust someone first hand.
> 
> The scene shows they are fast the same way KCM Naruto blitz Zetsu clones showed his speed. Zetsu clones probably aren’t ridiculously slow; but to say they are equal to legendary Ninja is a stretch and half.
> 
> Zetsu clone did not have his hands already clasped together, you can see the motion lines in the middle panel.


Come on man, Ei4 knew Kisame is strong enough to solo Bee, yet he didn't find it weird that the opponent has fodder level reactions?

If anything that is a speed feat for Zetsu considering nobody batted an eye over it, not anti-feat for V1 Bee or V1 Ei4.


And he clasps his hands together at the same time as Ei4 and Bee jump from their starting locations.


So basically he starts making handseals the moment they start moving, and by the time he is decapitated, he is still stuck at the first handseal.

That's a huge speed gap there


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## Muah (May 8, 2020)

is hachibi restricted or just full tailed beast mode. Because Killerbee is definitively somebody stronger than your average sage. I can't say that Killerbee is winning though without going all the way out. we seen what tailed beast partially transformed can do to jiriya though. I think it would be an extreme fight but I give it to jman.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Come on man, Ei4 knew Kisame is strong enough to solo Bee, yet he didn't find it weird that the opponent has fodder level reactions?
> 
> If anything that is a speed feat for Zetsu considering nobody batted an eye over it, not anti-feat for V1 Bee or V1 Ei4.
> 
> ...


Ei4 could have simply have assumed Kisame was also exhausted form fighting B. There is also the fact that we got literally 1 panel of B and Ei4 interacting after that fight; I assume that they asked each other many questions. I think this argument is horrendously weak, in the fact of dozens of examples of White Zetsu’s speed, that contradict what your saying.

Actually B leaps forward first; and then Kisame clasps his hands together. Look at the sequence of the panels

Plus that’s what we’re discussing where B leaps forward at the same time Jiriaya goes to form a hand-seal. Here a Fodder could do in 2m what your saying Jiriaya can’t in 20m.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

I mean @t0xeus this is ridiculous

B was literally *at most* 1 Foot away from the White Zetsu Clone when he used Lariate, we can see their distance here:

But WZ Clone could still form a seal before V1 B could complete Lariate.

There’s roughly 3.2 Feet in 1 Meter. So that means Jiriaya would be roughly 64x further away then WZ Clone and yet your claiming he can’t form a single hand-seal before V1 B completes his Lariate, despite B having to cross 64x greater distance

Let’s bare in mind this is your example that’s suppose to prove B can do. Come on bro, let’s try to be fair here


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## t0xeus (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Ei4 could have simply have assumed Kisame was also exhausted form fighting B. There is also the fact that we got literally 1 panel of B and Ei4 interacting after that fight; I assume that they asked each other many questions. I think this argument is horrendously weak, in the fact of dozens of examples of White Zetsu’s speed, that contradict what your saying.
> 
> Actually B leaps forward first; and then Kisame clasps his hands together. Look at the sequence of the panels
> 
> Plus that’s what we’re discussing where B leaps forward at the same time Jiriaya goes to form a hand-seal. Here a Fodder could do in 2m what your saying Jiriaya can’t in 20m.


I don't see how that argument is weak considering the scene does not even hint that it would be an anomaly that V1 Ei/Bee are blitzing Akatsuki member.

Plus considering that he can use Kisame's strongest jutsu and copied his chakra signature perfectly, it's not unreasonable to assume he would be able to copy his physical attributes as well.

Consider the fact he was even able to mentally react to a point-blank surprise Raiton pencil toss:


So what anti-feats does White Zetsu have that put him at fodder level anyways?


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## Prince Idonojie (May 8, 2020)

Handseals are like sleight-of-hand. Master it enough and you can deceptively trick and deceive the greatest speedsters; and generally some jutsus, especially S/T, are faster than a speedster moving around even with shunshin.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> I don't see how that argument is weak considering the scene does not even hint that it would be an anomaly that V1 Ei/Bee are blitzing Akatsuki member.
> 
> Plus considering that he can use Kisame's strongest jutsu and copied his chakra signature perfectly, it's not unreasonable to assume he would be able to copy his physical attributes as well.
> 
> ...


It’s strange that it would copy those attributes considering none of the other WZ can do this.

Anyway; please see most post above, even if you think WZ has Kisame attributes, it’s still absurd to look at that display and think Jiriaya can’t form a seal at 20m. So I don’t think I even need to go into WZ anti-feats.


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## Gulash (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yeah that translation is bad; I checked the raw; there is no “You” just that it’s impossible outside of Bijuu Transformation


Check the part where hachibi is saying to B that a host can use it only in full Biju mode?


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## t0xeus (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I mean @t0xeus this is ridiculous
> 
> B was literally *at most* 1 Foot away from the White Zetsu Clone when he used Lariate, we can see their distance here:
> 
> ...


I see what you mean, you can have this point.

He'd need to jump back and cast it as soon as the fight starts though if he wants to succeed with this most of the times imo.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> I see what you mean, you can have this point.
> 
> He'd need to jump back and cast it as soon as the fight starts though if he wants to succeed with this most of the times imo.


Thank you

Not really because chances of B even using Laraite first thing are extremely low. I just kind of let you have that point because even then Jiriaya can still win with Yomi Numa


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## t0xeus (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Thank you
> 
> Not really because chances of B even using Laraite first thing are extremely low. I just kind of let you have that point because even then Jiriaya can still win with Yomi Numa


Bee has full knowledge here, while Jiraiya has manga (practically none), so Bee looking to end things here right off the bat, instead of wasting time in base is highly probable imo.


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## Gulash (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yeah that translation is bad; I checked the raw; there is no “You” just that it’s impossible outside of Bijuu Transformation


And I agree its impossible but for a host.
We see KN4 using it because host was not in control.
If that translation,where Hachibi is explaining it to B ,is wrong I will concede on the matter.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Bee has full knowledge here, while Jiraiya has manga (practically none), so Bee looking to end things here right off the bat, instead of wasting time in base is highly probable imo.


B had enough knowledge to know Neo Pain, Nagato/Itachi, Kisame we’re major threats and he still fought in Base first. Chances of Lariate to start are extremely slim. 

Another point I just let you have is that Jiriaya just kicks the shit while B powers up into V1; and doesn’t immediately use a Jutsu in response to the transformation happening.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

Gulash said:


> And I agree its impossible but for a host.
> We see KN4 using it because host was not in control.
> If that translation,where Hachibi is explaining it to B ,is wrong I will concede on the matter.


Yes it is wrong


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## t0xeus (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> B had enough knowledge to know Neo Pain, Nagato/Itachi, Kisame we’re major threats and he still fought in Base first. Chances of Lariate to start are extremely slim.
> 
> Another point I just let you have is that Jiriaya just kicks the shit while B powers up into V1; and doesn’t immediately use a Jutsu in response to the transformation happening.


1- He just knew they're strong, that's not comparable with delicate and precise knowledge on each and every single one of Jiraiya's abilities.

2- The transformation into V1 doesn't take long, you can see he enters it simultanously with Ei4 entering his V1 in the Double Lariat scene.


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## Gulash (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yes it is wrong


And what does he say exactly can you translate?
Its right after Naruto tries to go full biju mode and fails.


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## Hardcore (May 8, 2020)

this argument is pointless

yomi numa is not doing shit

animal path only got caught in it because he was struggling from frog song and then he escaped it before jiraya landed a hit, and that was SM jiraya.. base jiraya's best feat is using it on two fodder snakes one of which was blocked by fucking genin naruto

not sure what the fuck is this is doing to V2 B who can literally just destroy it, use his lightning or extend his arms/tails to get out..

this is just really bad


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> this argument is pointless
> 
> yomi numa is not doing shit
> 
> ...


Animal Path was never hit, it was Human realm, and he did not escape it. 

I’m sorry B has no answer to Yomi Numa Hardcore but let go.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

Gulash said:


> And what does he say exactly can you translate?
> Its right after Naruto tries to go full biju mode and fails.


Essentially the same thing as Viz. The link I posted you. Except instead of Bijuu Mode it’s literally Bijuu Transformation


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## Turrin (May 8, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- He just knew they're strong, that's not comparable with delicate and precise knowledge on each and every single one of Jiraiya's abilities.
> 
> 2- The transformation into V1 doesn't take long, you can see he enters it simultanously with Ei4 entering his V1 in the Double Lariat scene.


1- It’s enough that if he based going V1 on threat level he would have done so

2- The point is if Kisamezetsu can form a hand-seal from 1 Foot away in response to V1-B Lariate charge; unless B is right next to Jiriaya when he goes V1 and charges him there is no chance Jiriaya doesn’t cast Yomi Numa before B can hit him. So any range outside of CQC.


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## t0xeus (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- It’s enough that if he based going V1 on threat level he would have done so


It's not really just about a threat level.

Whenever he was pressured in base, he quickly opted for V1/V2/BM.

That means that if he has full knowledge on Jiraiya's arsenal and thus knows that he is going to be pressured in base, he will opt for heightened modes right off the bat.



Turrin said:


> 2- The point is if Kisamezetsu can form a hand-seal from 1 Foot away in response to V1-B Lariate charge; unless B is right next to Jiriaya when he goes V1 and charges him there is no chance Jiriaya doesn’t cast Yomi Numa before B can hit him. So any range outside of CQC.


Oh, you meant he starts reacting as soon as Bee starts transforming. Okay.
I thought you mean that Jiraiya finishes casting Yomi Numa in the time it takes to activate V1. My bad.


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## Hardcore (May 8, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Animal Path was never hit, it was Human realm, and he did not escape it.
> 
> I’m sorry B has no answer to Yomi Numa Hardcore but let go.



nah dude

you haven't proven anything

you just gave excuses to every point presented, it can't work this way

the fact it temporarily disabled human realm who was also starting to get affected and paralyzed by frog song, and it was SM jiraya who did and he caught him while falling upside down with a freefall, hence the "gotcha"

there is no indication he could have used it anytime and just ko'd him, otherwise he would have beaten pain if yomi numa is as OP as you say it is

B is physically in another tier and has multiple ways to counter it and he's definitely not falling to it like human realm with full knowledge here

just drop it


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## Gulash (May 9, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Essentially the same thing as Viz. The link I posted you. Except instead of Bijuu Mode it’s literally Bijuu Transformation


Im not asking when Hachibi told to Naruto its impossible but the part where it was telling to B a host can do it only in full biju mode.


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## J★J♥ (May 9, 2020)

Samael said:


> poor post. Considering the circumstances in which bee was in against kisame and the fact that worse would happen to jiraiya.


You got it backwards.


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## Turrin (May 9, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> It's not really just about a threat level.
> 
> Whenever he was pressured in base, he quickly opted for V1/V2/BM.
> 
> ...


But he doesn’t necessarily need V1; Base-B could beat Base Jiriaya by cornering him in CQC. So even with Full Knowledge I see him trying to close the distance in Base first; then when he meets resistance he may up to V1.

Yeah I meant that unless B is in CQC, by the time he transforms, forms the bull horns, and charges his way to Jiriaya he gets hit by the swamp. 

Anyway I think B can win, but Jiriaya is more likely to win; and B does not have an answer for Yomi Numa


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## Turrin (May 9, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> nah dude
> 
> you haven't proven anything
> 
> ...


None of the other paths yet were effected by Frog-Song, so let’s not start making shit up.

And no he wouldn’t have beaten Pain with Yomi Numa as Fat Real can absorb it and Animal Path can even summon Paths out of it. They have a counter unlike B (without BM)

You haven’t proven B is in a different physical tier then Human Realm or the Snake. You haven’t shown any way he can get out of it period.

Just drop it


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## Turrin (May 9, 2020)

Gulash said:


> Im not asking when Hachibi told to Naruto its impossible but the part where it was telling to B a host can do it only in full biju mode.


It’s the same scene isn’t it?


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## t0xeus (May 9, 2020)

Turrin said:


> But he doesn’t necessarily need V1; Base-B could beat Base Jiriaya by cornering him in CQC. So even with Full Knowledge I see him trying to close the distance in Base first; then when he meets resistance he may up to V1.
> 
> Yeah I meant that unless B is in CQC, by the time he transforms, forms the bull horns, and charges his way to Jiriaya he gets hit by the swamp.
> 
> Anyway I think B can win, but Jiriaya is more likely to win; and B does not have an answer for Yomi Numa


Portrayal-wise it doesn't really make sense for a Doton to solo V1/V2 Jin though.

I can see it being used as a distraction for a moment, but that's about it. For an example chakra flex from Bee could very well push all the swamp out, or he can use partial transformation to pull himself out with a tentacle (the location is Chunin Exams arena after all, so it should be easy to grab something outside of the swamp).


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## Turrin (May 9, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Portrayal-wise it doesn't really make sense for a Doton to solo V1/V2 Jin though.
> 
> I can see it being used as a distraction for a moment, but that's about it. For an example chakra flex from Bee could very well push all the swamp out, or he can use partial transformation to pull himself out with a tentacle (the location is Chunin Exams arena after all, so it should be easy to grab something outside of the swamp).


1- Why not? It’s a High level Doton cast by a Legendary Sannin. It’s also one of Base Jiriaya’s best moves and Base Jiriaya beat a stronger V2 Jin KN4. It also had Human Realm beat who is Low/Mid Kage when you consider the shared vision buff, his physical might, and Human Realm ability sheet hax.

2- B has not shown; nor any other V2 Jin  (besides maybe KN4 who is next level)a chakra flex that can blow away a whole swamp. B has no counter, and that’s fine that a enemy on his level has a move that’s highly dangerous to him


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## t0xeus (May 9, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Why not? It’s a High level Doton cast by a Legendary Sannin. It’s also one of Base Jiriaya’s best moves and Base Jiriaya beat a stronger V2 Jin KN4. It also had Human Realm beat who is Low/Mid Kage when you consider the shared vision buff, his physical might, and Human Realm ability sheet hax.
> 
> 2- B has not shown; nor any other V2 Jin  (besides maybe KN4 who is next level)a chakra flex that can blow away a whole swamp.


1- It was used in a delicate strategy that had several-layered distractions, against the blind Human Path, instead of using it in a straightforward manner on the ground that the two Paths were running on.
Besides that, it only ever caught a boss-sized summon that wouldn't have a chance of dodging it even if it wanted considering its size.
So its portrayal in an actual fight against tough opponents is lacking.

2- There's no reason for Jiraiya to use a big swamp on such a small target, and the swamp that was used on Human Path was small enough for chakra flex to upset it imo.. 
Also you didn't address the tentacle counter.


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## Turrin (May 9, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- It was used in a delicate strategy that had several-layered distractions, against the blind Human Path, instead of using it in a straightforward manner on the ground that the two Paths were running on.
> Besides that, it only ever caught a boss-sized summon that wouldn't have a chance of dodging it even if it wanted considering its size.
> So its portrayal in an actual fight against tough opponents is lacking.
> 
> ...


1- it was used in a strategy because there were two other paths that also needed to be dealt with; it could have been used straight forwardly if it was just human charging him 

2- If B starts to escape a smaller swamp that’s a good reason to expand it.

The bottom line T0x is that by feats B can loose to the swamp. By portrayal:

- Base Jiriaya beat a stronger V2 Jin
- Kisame who beat V2 B, cucks down to Base Jiriaya and was about to lose to Toad Stomach


So no matter if we go off Feats or Potrayal Base Jiriaya is likely to win


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## Gulash (May 9, 2020)

Turrin said:


> It’s the same scene isn’t it?


Nope.
First the Hachibi is talking to B and after to Naruto.
Sorry dont know how to put the exact page


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## Turrin (May 9, 2020)

Gulash said:


> Nope.
> First the Hachibi is talking to B and after to Naruto.
> Sorry dont know how to put the exact page


Ether way the page I linked has B say it’s impossible in the Raw. So does it matter


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## Gulash (May 9, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Ether way the page I linked has B say it’s impossible in the Raw. So does it matter


It matters man because we see KN4 using it.
You said its because of power and im telling you hachibi explained its impossible for a host.
Host was not in control in KN4 and KN6 case,the beast was.
And I doubt KN4 is more powerfull that full V2 B.
Same way Obito Jin was more powerfull than ten-tails.Cause host,if is good enough,can control and focus the power,not throw it randomly like beast are doing it.


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## Turrin (May 9, 2020)

Gulash said:


> It matters man because we see KN4 using it.
> You said its because of power and im telling you hachibi explained its impossible for a host.
> Host was not in control in KN4 and KN6 case,the beast was.
> And I doubt KN4 is more powerfull that full V2 B.
> Same way Obito Jin was more powerfull than ten-tails.Cause host,if is good enough,can control and focus the power,not throw it randomly like beast are doing it.


And I’m saying Hachibi just said it was impossible period, not for the host. I’m not going to repeat myself for a third time; ether you believe me and the Viz translation or you believe online your choice


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## Gulash (May 9, 2020)

Turrin said:


> And I’m saying Hachibi just said it was impossible period, not for the host. I’m not going to repeat myself for a third time; ether you believe me and the Viz translation or you believe online your choice


Dude i would believe you,like i said,if you actually translate the scene im talking about.
You translate the scene where Hachibi is talking to Naruto that is impossible without going full biju.
Im talking about scene where Hachibi is talking to B.


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## Turrin (May 9, 2020)

Gulash said:


> Dude i would believe you,like i said,if you actually translate the scene im talking about.
> You translate the scene where Hachibi is talking to Naruto that is impossible without going full biju.
> Im talking about scene where Hachibi is talking to B.


1- I asked you for the scene and you didn’t give it to me

2- Another scene doesn’t matter because he says it’s impossible in the one I already showed you


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## Gulash (May 9, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- I asked you for the scene and you didn’t give it to me
> 
> 2- Another scene doesn’t matter because he says it’s impossible in the one I already showed you


Lol i told you i dont know how to post it but i tried my best to explain it to you.Chapter 519,right after Naruto fails to go full Biju.
And Hachibi is talking to Naruto when its saying thats impossible to do TBB unless he goes full Biju.You know its talking to a "host" that it can not be donne.Right after its say to B a "host" can only do it in full Biju mode.Nowhere does Hachibi says its generaly impossible.I dont know why you assumed that.I mean it wasnt talking to itself.It was speaking to Naruto.
And offcourse it matters when Hachibi clearly says "host" can not do it.It means youre wrong.
I mean you said its impossible yet we saw its possible.
If its not possible power should not matter.So which one is it?


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## Hardcore (May 9, 2020)

Turrin said:


> None of the other paths yet were effected by Frog-Song, so let’s not start making shit up.
> 
> And no he wouldn’t have beaten Pain with Yomi Numa as Fat Real can absorb it and Animal Path can even summon Paths out of it. They have a counter unlike B (without BM)
> 
> ...



you completely ignored that jiraya took advantage of the fact of the freefall, which is why he was able to catch human path

and the fact it was sm and he starts in base here, and the fact that i gave you many counters that you ignored

and are you saying that the snake that kn0 stopped is nearly as strong as V2B?

someone who was portayed above a4 who was one of the most physical ones in the manga at that point, do you really think human realm can take A4 or V2's lariats?

what you're saying doesn't make sense at all


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## Architect (May 9, 2020)

Bee counters YN with this

then go V2 and wrecks G-raiya


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## Turrin (May 9, 2020)

Gulash said:


> Lol i told you i dont know how to post it but i tried my best to explain it to you.Chapter 519,right after Naruto fails to go full Biju.
> And Hachibi is talking to Naruto when its saying thats impossible to do TBB unless he goes full Biju.You know its talking to a "host" that it can not be donne.Right after its say to B a "host" can only do it in full Biju mode.Nowhere does Hachibi says its generaly impossible.I dont know why you assumed that.I mean it wasnt talking to itself.It was speaking to Naruto.
> And offcourse it matters when Hachibi clearly says "host" can not do it.It means youre wrong.
> I mean you said its impossible yet we saw its possible.
> If its not possible power should not matter.So which one is it?


That’s literally the Page I already shared with you


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## Turrin (May 9, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> you completely ignored that jiraya took advantage of the fact of the freefall, which is why he was able to catch human path
> 
> and the fact it was sm and he starts in base here, and the fact that i gave you many counters that you ignored
> 
> ...


There wasn’t free fall; Human Path jumped onto the ceiling and that’s how he got stuck.

Dude I addressed all your counters. You haven’t shown that the swamp is something you can muscle out of period; and by the mechanics of how a swamp works you shouldn’t be able to muscle out of it 

I don’t think Human Realm can’t take a Lariate, but that is a charging strike with piercing power; it’s not a simple punch. So that’s irrelevant 

It makes perfect sense based on how a bog literally works; your just don’t want to accept that B has no answer to it; to which I say let go


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## Hardcore (May 9, 2020)

Turrin said:


> There wasn’t free fall; Human Path jumped onto the ceiling and that’s how he got stuck.
> 
> Dude I addressed all your counters. You haven’t shown that the swamp is something you can muscle out of period; and by the mechanics of how a swamp works you shouldn’t be able to muscle out of it
> 
> ...



it's not my job to show you, it's your job to prove that it's a technique that can't be muscled out from

burden of proof is on you, it was never stated to be an unbeatable technique, otherwise why the fuck didn't he use it when all the pains were next to each other and one-shot them all

why didn't he use it directly on oro in part 1 and why didn't he use it to low-diff kn4 naruto instead of almost dying there, and why didn' he immediately use it on kisame and itachi?

i've given you multiple examples and you've been just telling excuses

stop making something big out of a technique that was not proven to be efficient to be an instant ko move against anything other than fodder


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## Turrin (May 9, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> it's not my job to show you, it's your job to prove that it's a technique that can't be muscled out from
> 
> burden of proof is on you, it was never stated to be an unbeatable technique, otherwise why the fuck didn't he use it when all the pains were next to each other and one-shot them all
> 
> ...


I gave your proof, based on the mechanics of how a Bog works; and two physical powerful targets being unable to muscle out at all. The burden of proof is now on you to show that Yomi Numa for some reason doesn’t operate like a normal bog, and that B is massively physically stronger then Snake/Human Path. You haven’t been able to prove ether thus far

- Orochimaru he couldn’t use it on as they were battling on the Snake; and he couldn’t completely Sink the Snake because he was drugged

- KN4 we have no clue what the events of that battle were, so the only thing that tells us is by portrayal Base Jiriaya beat a stronger V2 Jin

- He used Toad Stomach which is a very similar Technique against Itachi and Kisame. He also may not have wanted to use a chakra based attack since Kisame had Samehada.

You haven’t given any examples. And Yomi Numa literally KO’d both targets it was used on, the Snake and Human Realm. It literally has a 2 and Zero record. What’s Continuous TBB record bud? 0?


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## Gulash (May 9, 2020)

Turrin said:


> That’s literally the Page I already shared with you


Its literally not.
Its page nine i think.


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## Turrin (May 9, 2020)

Gulash said:


> Its literally not.
> Its page nine i think.


What does it matter though. B saying a host can only use it in BM and then later saying it’s impossible without BM; is saying the same thing; that BM is necessary to use TBB. As he is saying both for the host and then later in general it’s impossible

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hardcore (May 9, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I gave your proof, based on the mechanics of how a Bog works; and two physical powerful targets being unable to muscle out at all. The burden of proof is now on you to show that Yomi Numa for some reason doesn’t operate like a normal bog, a*nd that B is massively physically stronger then Snake/Human Path. You haven’t been able to prove ether thus far*
> 
> - Orochimaru he couldn’t use it on as they were battling on the Snake; and he couldn’t completely Sink the Snake because he was drugged
> 
> ...



dude B is above A4 who is one of the most physically powerful people in the entire alliance, both portayal and feats show that.. since you literally didn't see the much higher end feat of V1 B and V2 B one-shotting kisame with a lariat(who only survived it beause of his ability to take advantage and get stronger), then A and byakogu tsunade were the only people who were to shown to physically handle mabui's light transportation..

stop giving an excuse to that..

and cute of you to ignore off-panel battles now when you literally use them against every other character to have it go your way

it did not KO human realm dude, it immobilized it, frog song ko'd it and we see jiraya stabbing the 3 paths at the end, stop seeing things the way you want.

yomi numa is a middle end supporting jutsu which best feat was defeating fodder snakes that kn0 naruto was able to stop

get over it


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## Gulash (May 9, 2020)

Turrin said:


> What does it matter though. B saying a host can only use it in BM and then later saying it’s impossible without BM; is saying the same thing; that BM is necessary to use TBB. As he is saying both for the host and then later in general it’s impossible


Yes Its impossible for a host to use it outside of BM.
And Hachibi never stated that its impossible in general.He was talking to Naruto,who is a host.
KN4 was able to use it because host was not in control.Not because its more powerfull like you claimed.
So for a host its impossible but not for a beast itself.Its pretty clear.
It matters cause youre wrong.


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## Gulash (May 9, 2020)

Turrin said:


> What does it matter though. B saying a host can only use it in BM and then later saying it’s impossible without BM; is saying the same thing; that BM is necessary to use TBB. As he is saying both for the host and then later in general it’s impossible


And maybe KN4 is more powerfull than V2 B but thats not why it was able to use TBB.


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## Gulash (May 9, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> it did not KO human realm dude, it immobilized it, frog song ko'd it and we see jiraya stabbing the 3 paths at the end, stop seeing things the way you want.


Human path could not move his hands or feets.
And we know the only jutsu hes able to use requiers his hands.
Jiraiya could have just stabed him in the head with kunai after he trapped him.
So essentially yomi numa KO him.


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## Hardcore (May 9, 2020)

Gulash said:


> Human path could not move his hands or feets.
> And we know the only jutsu hes able to use requiers his hands.
> Jiraiya could have just stabed him in the head with kunai after he trapped him.
> So essentially yomi numa KO him.



still, frog song technically ko'd him, yomi numa disabled him for a while, B has chakra arms/tails that could have easily helped him out of that

anyways weren't they all starting to get gradually affected by frog song?


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## Gulash (May 9, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> still, frog song technically ko'd him, yomi numa disabled him for a while, B has chakra arms/tails that could have easily helped him out of that
> 
> anyways weren't they all starting to get gradually affected by frog song?


Frong song did the same thing,disabled him for a while.But i agree yomi numa will not defeat B.He has tails,not sure about chakra arms
But it could give Jiraiya a potentional opening for something else.
Ye it seemed like they did in one panel but after that they acted normal i think.Im not really sure about that one.


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## Turrin (May 9, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> dude B is above A4 who is one of the most physically powerful people in the entire alliance, both portayal and feats show that.. since you literally didn't see the much higher end feat of V1 B and V2 B one-shotting kisame with a lariat(who only survived it beause of his ability to take advantage and get stronger), then A and byakogu tsunade were the only people who were to shown to physically handle mabui's light transportation..
> 
> stop giving an excuse to that..
> 
> ...


B being stronger then Ei4 isn’t relevant; because Human Realm is one handing SM Users, and couldn’t do dick against the swamp. 

Lariate is dangerous because it’s a piercing attack, not because of sheer physical strength, so that is irrelevant to this discussion.

Whose ignoring the off panel battle; I said all this shows is Base Jiriaya beat a much stronger V2 Jin by Portrayal

Human realm was defeated by Yomi Numa as he couldn’t escape without the other paths. So was the Snake. Again how many things has Continuous TBB defeated, none, wow must be a low end supporting Jutsu by your logic.


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## Turrin (May 9, 2020)

Gulash said:


> Yes Its impossible for a host to use it outside of BM.
> And Hachibi never stated that its impossible in general.He was talking to Naruto,who is a host.
> KN4 was able to use it because host was not in control.Not because its more powerfull like you claimed.
> So for a host its impossible but not for a beast itself.Its pretty clear.
> It matters cause youre wrong.


Yes Hachibi did, in the panel I posted for you; this is what I keep repeating over and over again. 

He first says it’s impossible for the Host; then he says it’s impossible in general outside of BM. 

I’m done with this


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## Gulash (May 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yes Hachibi did, in the panel I posted for you; this is what I keep repeating over and over again.
> 
> He first says it’s impossible for the Host; then he says it’s impossible in general outside of BM.
> 
> I’m done with this


So you agree,its impossible for a host.He was speaking to Naruto because KCM tried to do TBB,when he said its impossible.
We see KN4 did it,hachibi says its impossible for a host.So KN4 was able to do TBB because host was not in control.
I mean whats so hard to understand.
Sure youre done with this when you are wrong.


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## Hardcore (May 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> B being stronger then Ei4 isn’t relevant; because Human Realm is one handing SM Users, and couldn’t do dick against the swamp.
> 
> Lariate is dangerous because it’s a piercing attack, not because of sheer physical strength, so that is irrelevant to this discussion.
> 
> ...



A4 >> human realm by both portrayal and feats.. you literally ignore the mabui part when things can't get any clearer, do you think jiraya can withstand that? jiraya is not even a complete sm user, PLUS they were all starting to get affected by frogsong, and he was in SM not sage(you keep ignoring those points)

and no he's not, we've been through this many times before, V2 B >>> Kn4, even a much weaker V1B beat the crap out of oro, Kn4 stalemated with sealed orochimaru before he ran out of chakra.. and there's no proof how jiraya suppressed kn4 given how he almost lost his life and if yomi numa is as op as you say then he wouldn't have almost died..

continuous tbb was used and it was relevant at a much higher scale battle, a battle in which jiraya would die in the crossfire, stop trying so hard for nothing


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## Turrin (May 10, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> so what, A4 >> human realm by both portrayal and feats.. you literally ignore the mabui part, do you think jiraya can withstand that? jiraya is not even a complete sm user, PLUS they were all starting to get affected by frogsong(you keep ignoring that)
> 
> and no he's not, we've been through this many times before, V2 B >>> Kn4, even a much weaker V1B beat the crap out of oro, Kn4 stalemated with sealed orochimaru before he ran out of chakra.. and there's no proof how jiraya suppressed kn4 given how he almost lost his life and if yomi numa is as op as you say then he wouldn't have almost died..
> 
> continuous tbb was used and it was relevant at a much higher scale battle, a battle in which jiraya would die in the crossfire, stop trying so hard for nothing


1- Show Ei4 Physical feats that put him above Human Path. Mabui teleport is a matter of durability not striking power. This is why I’m ignoring it.

2- Human Realm was not effected physically by Frog-Song; had no issue reaction to attacks and evading them. HG/Animal had no issue using their Jutsu too. So bring proof that Frog-Song somehow lowered Human Paths physical power or stop fruitlessly repeating yourself

3. Yes we have been through this and I disagree with you; Kn4 has blatantly far superior feats then V2-B; and can use TBB in V2 which Hachibi doesn’t even think is possible outside of BM. Your head-canon of V1 B beating Orochimaru will be ignored unless you can provide an actual argument for it.

And yes that’s right we don’t know how the fight between Jiriaya and KN4 went, so stop making up head-canon details, is my point. Jiriaya may have gotten taken off guard by KN4 sheer power and got hit; and then got serious and used Yomi Numa to stop it. I mean that’s the Anime Head-Canon on how the fight went:

But I’d rather steer clear of that head-canon speculation; and just say portrayal wise it shows Base Jiriaya can defeat a stronger V2 Jin then B.

Edit: And if Jiriaya can suppress the far superior chakra of V2 KN4, he is an even worse opponent for V2 B. 

4. Okay and Yomi Numa was used an relevant against Pain which is a much higher scale then V2 B. So let’s stop with this bullshit.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hardcore (May 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Show Ei4 Physical feats that put him above Human Path. Mabui teleport is a matter of durability not striking power. This is why I’m ignoring it.
> 
> 2- Human Realm was not effected physically by Frog-Song; had no issue reaction to attacks and evading them. HG/Animal had no issue using their Jutsu too. So bring proof that Frog-Song somehow lowered Human Paths physical power or stop fruitlessly repeating yourself
> 
> ...



dude jiraya literally got defeated in that headcanon, and naruto saved him at the last moment.

seriously how did you get base jiraya > kn4 from that.. and V2 B is much faster than Kn4 and if he gets a hit like that then jiraya's head would get blown away.. yomi numa temporarily immobilized it, the same it did against human realm, that much i can give you..

V2 B is much faster and there's no way jiraya can catch him with it begin with, and one blow would kill him

are you really asking for proof that fucking animal realm is as anywhere near A4 physically?


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## Turrin (May 10, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> dude jiraya literally got defeated in that headcanon, and naruto saved him at the last moment.
> 
> seriously how did you get base jiraya > kn4 from that.. and V2 B is much faster than Kn4 and if he gets a hit like that then jiraya's head would get blown away.. yomi numa temporarily immobilized it, the same it did against human realm, that much i can give you..
> 
> ...


1- How was he defeated KN4 was stuck in the swamp and couldn’t break free

2- V2 B being faster then KN4 is irrelevant as it’s not fast enough to stop Jiriaya from forming a single hand seal. 

3- V2 B literally has no way to avoid a camouflaged swamp if Rinnegan users couldn’t avoid it

4- That Ei4 is massive physically stronger then Human realm yes


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## Hardcore (May 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- How was he defeated KN4 was stuck in the swamp and couldn’t break free



cause he was weakening and could not keep it for long

and kn4 looked like it's struggling against it

he was defeated there


Turrin said:


> 2- V2 B being faster then KN4 is irrelevant as it’s not fast enough to stop Jiriaya from forming a single hand seal.



dude the entire taka team struggled with B's speed, and sasuke barely dodged V1.. they had to use karen's sensing to keep track of him.. and this was V1, do you really think jiraya can catch him with it in this fight?


Turrin said:


> 3- V2 B literally has no way to avoid a camouflaged swamp if Rinnegan users couldn’t avoid it



their speeds does not compare to V2B, and for the millionth time dude, they were clearly annoyed by frog song when it started and plus they were separated

so no point there


Turrin said:


> 4- That Ei4 is massive physically stronger then Human realm yes



since you ignored and gave excuses abut the portrayal that put A4 and byakogu tsunade far above anyone else for having the strength to withstand light speed

then you can more excuses for those 

*Spoiler*: __ 








breaking samehada and bodying suigetsu then cs2 juugo with minimum effort, but animal path can easily do that too dw

*Spoiler*: __ 








comparisions with tailed beasts, and having the strength to cut hachibi's horn, but animal path also made people piss their shit i'm sure

*Spoiler*: __ 








and someone like kcm naruto admitting he could be one-shot by a direct A4 punch, but i'm sure that animal path can do that too

and then you have B out-powering A4 in base

B breaking the force-field of the strongest alliance using V2

you should really just drop it dude, you're clearly desperate and bringing out excuses to everything and having nothing in hand, even the headcanon anime video you brought does not go your way..


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## Turrin (May 10, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> cause he was weakening and could not keep it for long
> 
> and kn4 looked like it's struggling against it
> 
> ...


1- Where does Jiriaya say he couldn’t maintain the swamp? He literally maintains it until Naruto regains control.

2- Sasuke was the only one worth note there and he was injured. I don’t find that an impressive speed feat for B; especially when Sasuke wasn’t injured anymore he was able to aim dodge RCM Ei4 whose >= B. As far as Jiriaya being able to form a hand-seal for Yomi Numa, he will do this easily; we have seen White Zetsu and Dodai form seals at close range against V1-B and RCM Raikages, and I Jiriaya’s seal speed >= to theirs

3- Speed doesn’t matter when you literally can’t see the swamp to avoid it. Also the Paths speed does compares to V1-B as they were keeping up with SM users, including SM Naruto who aim dodges RCM Ei3 who was comparable in speed to RCM Ei4 and V1-B.

Can you show me proof of V1/2 B blitzing anyone besides WZ Clone from 1 Foot away.

4- Juugo and Suigetsu feats are not more impressive then One-Handing a Sages Punch. KCM Naruto being able to block RCM Ei4 (even if he says the punch is strong) is an Anti-Feat considering you have characters like Itachi being able to casually handles KCM Naruto’s Physical Strength in CQC. Base-B besting RCM Ei4 is also an Anti-Feat considering even Sasuke has been able to block Base-Bs strikes consistently without being overpowered; and same for Kisame (Kisame even blocked V1-Bs strikes).


These characters simply aren’t as strong as your making them out to be when talking about the Kage Class level .


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## Gulash (May 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 3. Yes we have been through this and I disagree with you; Kn4 has blatantly far superior feats then V2-B; and can use TBB in V2 which Hachibi doesn’t even think is possible outside of BM. Your head-canon of V1 B beating Orochimaru will be ignored unless you can provide an actual argument for it.
> 
> And yes that’s right we don’t know how the fight between Jiriaya and KN4 went, so stop making up head-canon details, is my point. Jiriaya may have gotten taken off guard by KN4 sheer power and got hit; and then got serious and used Yomi Numa to stop it. I mean that’s the Anime Head-Canon on how the fight went:
> 
> ...


While i agree with you on other points i just have to answer here.
Cant believe you are so dense man.KN4 may be stronger but your argument is very weak.
The reason why jins,who can control their beast,are more powerfull than the said beast is precisely because they can control and focus that power and not throw it randomly like KN4 did.
And like you know,but wont admit,youre wrong about why KN4 was able to use TBB.It is because Kurama was in control.So V2 B could just switch with Hachibi and fire TBB.Obviosly that TBB would be weaker than the one from full Biju.And before you say why B never did that its because  there was never a reason to do so when he can just go full Biju and fire a stronger TBB.


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## Hardcore (May 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Where does Jiriaya say he couldn’t maintain the swamp? He literally maintains it until Naruto regains control.



dude, jiraya was literally bodied on the floor, he got beat and outsped by even kn4 and used yomi numa as a last resort since there was only one way kn4 could come at him.. if he could have used it before, he would have.. at least in the headcanon you presented.

the dude was on his last breath hoping naruto to regain control asap

he's against someone much faster and would break him like he broke sasuke in a lesser form without fail

common learn how to see things the proper way



Turrin said:


> 2- Sasuke was the only one worth note there and he was injured. I don’t find that an impressive speed feat for B; especially when Sasuke wasn’t injured anymore he was able to aim dodge RCM Ei4 whose >= B. As far as Jiriaya being able to form a hand-seal for Yomi Numa, he will do this easily; we have seen White Zetsu and Dodai form seals at close range against V1-B and RCM Raikages, and I Jiriaya’s seal speed >= to theirs



cute to ignore every piece of portayal and pick the easiest one for you to counter which you just said it wasn't impressive


Turrin said:


> 3- Speed doesn’t matter when you literally can’t see the swamp to avoid it. Also the Paths speed does compares to V1-B as they were keeping up with SM users, including SM Naruto who aim dodges RCM Ei3 who was comparable in speed to RCM Ei4 and V1-B.



he needs to be able to aim the swamp properly, something he can't do with V1/V2 speeds..

and naruto "aim dodge" due to sm danger sensing not beause of speed, he's much slower in that form, stop giving desperate false excuses


Turrin said:


> 4- Juugo and Suigetsu feats are not more impressive then One-Handing a Sages Punch. KCM Naruto being able to block RCM Ei4 (even if he says the punch is strong) is an Anti-Feat considering you have characters like Itachi being able to casually handles KCM Naruto’s Physical Strength in CQC. Base-B besting RCM Ei4 is also an Anti-Feat considering even Sasuke has been able to block Base-Bs strikes consistently without being overpowered; and same for Kisame (Kisame even blocked V1-Bs strikes).



dude kcm naruto literally admitted he would be one-shotted there cleanly, just because they were sparring with itachi does not take away anything from them..

kisame got destroyed by V2 B, the only reason he survived was because of his special ability and taking the chakra for himself.. that's something only for him, you really can't see things properly


Turrin said:


> These characters simply aren’t as strong as your making them out to be when talking about the Kage Class level .



they are, you just don't like it


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## Turrin (May 10, 2020)

Gulash said:


> Why i agree with you on other points i just have to answer here.
> Cant believe you are so dense man.KN4 may be stronger but your argument is very weak.
> The reason why jins,who can control their beast,are more powerfull than the said beast is precisely because they can control and focus that power and nit throw it randomly like KN4 did.
> And like you know,but wont admit,youre wrong abou why KN4 was able to use TBB.It is because Kurama was in control.So V2 B could just switch with Hachibi and fire TBB.Obviosly that TBB would be weaker than the one from full Biju.And before you say why B never did that its because  there was never a reason to do so when he can just go full Biju and fire a stronger TBB.


Your argument is totally nonsensical.

Your saying Perfect Jins are better because they have superior control of their power, versus berserk KN4; but then because KN4 was controlled by Kyuubi (which isn’t even true) it was able to use TBB, because Kyuubi can control its power better lol.

I’ve already told you 10 times the Hachibi says it’s impossible for him to use TBB outside of BM. It’s impossible because his V2 forms don’t have raw power anywhere near a full Bijuu but KN4 clearly does; and it demonstrates this far greater raw power in its battle with Orochimaru.

I’m going to ignore all further posts from you that state B can use TBB in V2


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## Shazam (May 10, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> dude jiraya literally got defeated in that headcanon, and naruto saved him at the last moment.
> 
> seriously how did you get base jiraya > kn4 from that.. and V2 B is much faster than Kn4 and if he gets a hit like that then jiraya's head would get blown away.. yomi numa temporarily immobilized it, the same it did against human realm, that much i can give you..
> 
> ...



Have to keep in mind Base Jiraiya was only trying to restrain Naruto and not go on the offensive. We see no damage Oriented jutsu, only ones that focus on slowing down or stopping Kn4 Naruto in that anime vid


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## Hardcore (May 10, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Have to keep in mind Base Jiraiya was only trying to restrain Naruto and not go on the offensive. We see no damage Oriented jutsu, only ones that focus on slowing down or stopping Kn4 Naruto in that anime vid



i know

hence the more reason to use yomi numa asap, he had trouble with speed there

he was able to catch him when kn4 had one way to go

not saying jiraya is weaker than kn4, but it's the yomi numa as an instant ko move bullshit i don't buy


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## Gulash (May 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Your argument is totally nonsensical.
> 
> Your saying Perfect Jins are better because they have superior control of their power, versus berserk KN4; but then because KN4 was controlled by Kyuubi (which isn’t even true) it was able to use TBB, because Kyuubi can control its power better lol.
> 
> ...


Wow you really lack reading comprenhension.
Wasnt Obito more powerfull than ten-tails while he was a jin because he could focus his power?This was said in the manga.Maybe KN4 is stronger than V2 B but your argument is weak.
Lol and how is KN4 being controled by Kyuubi not true??Was Naruto in control there?Dude its clear he lost it and it was Kyuubi who was controling him.He cant even remember rampaging in KN4.
And i never said Kyuubi can control its power better.Kyuubi can fire TBB even in KN4 state because TBB its originally technique of the Bijus!Hachibi tought B how to perform TBB,not the other way around.
And Hachibi says its impossible to do it outside BM to Naruto.He was speaking to Naruto who is a HOST. And he said that after disscusing it with B that the HOSTS can do it only in BM.But you never bothered to translate the raw on that.I told you,chapter 519,page 9!You are only talking about page 13!
Put 2 and 2 together man!


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## Turrin (May 10, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> dude, jiraya was literally bodied on the floor, he got beat and outsped by even kn4 and used yomi numa as a last resort since there was only one way kn4 could come at him.. if he could have used it before, he would have.. at least in the headcanon you presented.
> 
> the dude was on his last breath hoping naruto to regain control asap
> 
> ...


1- Jiriaya used Yomi Numa in time against Kn4 when he was heavily injured on the ground, yet according to you he couldn’t use it before when he wasn’t injured. That makes no sense 

2- What part of your post did I ignore? Glad we agree I countered your Sasuke example though 

3- Jiriaya when drugged could create a massive swamp; he literally only has to create another big swamp between himself and B; this is not hard to aim. 

4- If he can aim dodge and land his hit on Ei3, but can’t do the same shit to Pain Realm. What does that tell you bud 

5- KCM Naruto doesn’t say he would be one-shot; he says it would be bad. And yes taking a clean hit form any of the stronger High-Tiers to the face isn’t going to end very well. KCM Naruto and Itachi were fighting and Itachi easily handled his blow; Itachi also was able to deflect Bs strikes with a Kunai; despite as you have pointed out Base Bs physical strength being beyond RCM Ei4. 

Kisame got destroyed due to V2 Lariate piercing power not V2 B physical might. We have literally seen V2 Jins have their attacks physical blocked by Kakashi and Gai. 

—-

If they were you would be able to show me actual feats of them overpowering people. All you keep showing me is them getting blocked by other characters or saying they should be X strong, but when they actually fight Kage Class people even weaker ones physically like Injured Sasuke and Itachi they aren’t overpowering their guards.


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## Turrin (May 10, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> i know
> 
> hence the more reason to use yomi numa asap, he had trouble with speed there
> 
> ...


You need to understand that your opinion on what you buy isn’t an argument. Yomi Numa has 1 hit KO’d every target it’s used against in the manga; and in the anime KN4 also couldn’t escape it. You not buying isn’t worth anything, when Yomi Numa has 1 Hit Everything it’s ever been used on in the Manga; it has the best track record of this of like any Jutsu in the verse lol


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## Reddan (May 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> You need to understand that your opinion on what you buy isn’t an argument. Yomi Numa has 1 hit KO’d every target it’s used against in the manga; and in the anime KN4 also couldn’t escape it. You not buying isn’t worth anything, when Yomi Numa has 1 Hit Everything it’s ever been used on in the Manga; it has the best track record of this of like any Jutsu in the verse lol


The anime is a joke. Why exactly are you using it?

Yomi Numa is not Jiraiya's fastest nor is it his most powerful. 
He obviously failed to catch Orochimar in it, since he was beaten by him time and time again.
He failed to catch any other Pain body in it.

Jiraiya never comments on how it is an inescapable technique, like he claims about the frog stomach.

It's a decent technique, but nothing more and most top tier ninjas are going to avoid it.

Bee is clearly portrayed above SM Naruto and well above Jiraiya, statements and portrayal.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (May 10, 2020)

Reddan said:


> The anime is a joke. Why exactly are you using it?
> 
> Yomi Numa is not Jiraiya's fastest nor is it his most powerful.
> He obviously failed to catch Orochimar in it, since he was beaten by him time and time again.
> ...



Jiraiya did catch a path with it. 

And Jiraiya not having success stopping Orochimaru from deflecting pre timeline of P1 does not matter.. 

Bee's portrayal is high on BM. Not on V2 or Base


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## Reddan (May 10, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Jiraiya did catch a path with it.


He caught one Pain. What happened to the others? 


> And Jiraiya not having success stopping Orochimaru from deflecting pre timeline of P1 does not matter..


No it matters, why was Orochimaru capable of avoiding this so called inescapable technique time and time again.


> Bee's portrayal is high on BM. Not on V2 or Base


Make a thread about Jiraiya vs Taka. Let's see how well Jiraiya does. 

As stated before.

Bee is faster, stronger, more durable, has more stamina, greater kenjutsu skill, more intellgence and better resistance to genjutsu. Jiraiya just has better ninjutsu.

Jiraiya is outclassed in every aspect that matters.

We have statements from several sources confirming Bee is better than Jiraiya. 

Bee reacted to Hiraishin and countered it despite already being tagged. He tanked a Jugo CS2 powered hit to the famous with no damage at all.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hardcore (May 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Jiriaya used Yomi Numa in time against Kn4 when he was heavily injured on the ground, yet according to you he couldn’t use it before when he wasn’t injured. That makes no sense
> 
> 2- What part of your post did I ignore? Glad we agree I countered your Sasuke example though
> 
> ...



it does, when kn4 had no other path to go at him

and you didn't counter anything, you gave excuses to everything without presenting evidence, as always

5- dude don't take one outlier of itachi,B,KCM naruto chatting and sparring to reach that itachi is in the same physical ballpark as B and KCM naruto



Turrin said:


> You need to understand that your opinion on what you buy isn’t an argument. Yomi Numa has 1 hit KO’d every target it’s used against in the manga; and in the anime KN4 also couldn’t escape it. You not buying isn’t worth anything, when Yomi Numa has 1 Hit Everything it’s ever been used on in the Manga; it has the best track record of this of like any Jutsu in the verse lol



you need to understand that you're the one giving excuses mate

1- A4 and byakogu tsunade portrayed the strongest of the alliance physically by handling light speed transportation
your excuse: it's durability not physical strength, as if they aren't correlated at all..

2- V2 B breaking the forcefield of the strongest barrier in the alliance
your excuse: it was TBB what did it, when KCM naruto was clearly pushing the TBB through the barriers not the forcefield..

3- V2 B causing serious to kisame with pure strength and the latter admittedly surviving it due to his abilities which is a counter
your excuse: even someone like kisame blocked B

4- SM jiraya using yomi numa on human realm when the paths were all separated and starting to get affected by frog song as we were shown the moment the frogs started singing
your excuse: it doesn't matter that it was SM, it doesn't matter if frog song was geting activated, yomi numa one shot human realm who has sm strength and somehow stronger than A4

5- BASE(the way he starts in here) jiraya's best yomi numa feat on fodder snakes that Kn0 naruto mid-diffed in the forest of death.. and it did not even completely work because he was poisoned
your excuse: it doesn't matter, let's not look at that

6- V1 B clearly shown as much faster than taka sasuke who is faster than jiraya and needing karen to keep track of his movements
your excuse: it doesn't matter, all jiraya needs is one hand seal and it's done

7-In the headcanon you presented, jiraya clearly struggled with Kn4 in terms of speed, and using yomi numa as a last resort when kn4 only had one way to approach him for the finishing blow, and depended on naruto to gain control fast
your explanation/excuse: base jiraya > kn4 > V2B based on nothing(who is clearly much faster, has much higher-end feats, and scales much higher physically than kn4 that sealed arms orochimaru exchanged blows with)
8- someone as strong as kcm naruto praising A4's strength
your excuse: it doesn't matter, kcm naruto and B exchanged blows with itachi while they were chatting and the fight is not serious

seriously dude, get your shit together, everything you said is based on opinions, very bad ones, and it's literally a manga made for children, can't see how someone could be this lost, you failed hard in this thread


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## Shazam (May 10, 2020)

Reddan said:


> He caught one Pain. What happened to the others?
> 
> No it matters, why was Orochimaru capable of avoiding this so called inescapable technique time and time again.
> 
> ...



You said he failed to catch any Pain body with it. That was false. Merely reminding you that he did.

You'd have to insert headcanon in everything you say about what occurred between Jiraiya and Orochimaru (in specifics) as we don't see what happened or how it happened. If your argument relies heavily on this no showing, then you have no case. We don't know what Jiraiya tried and what he didn't

Jiraiya vs Sick/Hurt 3T Sasuke (who may or may not use Amaterasu), Jugo, Suigetsu and Karin (who did nothing battle wise?)

Yea, Jiraiya wins that pretty easy


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## Turrin (May 10, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> it does, when kn4 had no other path to go at him
> 
> and you didn't counter anything, you gave excuses to everything without presenting evidence, as always
> 
> ...


Hardcore I’m done with this discussion if your going to just keep repeating yourself and saying I’m not giving evidence.

For example somehow I’m not giving evidence; when I cite the Manga fact that Sasuke was injured when facing B; and then later show when he is not injured he is able to aim dodge RCM Ei4 without an issue. How is that not evidence?

——

KN4 had plenty of other means to go out Jiriaya; it got tripped up an stuck by the swamp period. There is no defensible reason you can give for why Jiriaya is more equipped to cast the swamp on KN4 when heavily injured then when healthy. Just cut that shit out dude

—-
I don’t think you understand what an outlier is. An outlier is one instance; not multiple consistent instances. Base-B has failed to overpower Injured Sasuke, Itachi, Kisame, Nagato, and Edo Jins with his strikes. He only overpowered Ei4 with his strike during a battle of hearts/minds; and a far more sparring match type situation then these above examples; and Ei4 got back up with virtually no damage. If any instance should be ignored as an outlier it’s that WoF bullshit scene. So don’t even come at me with that dishonest BS

—-
I’ve literally addressed every single one of your 7 points already if you got nothing to add, you can concede or just agree to disagree; but your arguments aren’t convincing me; so imo Yomi Numa still wins this, deal with it


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## Turrin (May 10, 2020)

Reddan said:


> The anime is a joke. Why exactly are you using it?
> 
> Yomi Numa is not Jiraiya's fastest nor is it his most powerful.
> He obviously failed to catch Orochimar in it, since he was beaten by him time and time again.
> ...


Reddan please go back and re-read this thread and my posts and then when you understand I never said Yomi Numa is Jiriaya most powerful
jutsu; and that I never said to take the Anime Seriously; I’ll expect and apology for this Straw man shit your tying to pull here


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## Reddan (May 10, 2020)

Shazam said:


> You said he failed to catch any Pain body with it. That was false. Merely reminding you that he did.


He failed to catch the other bodies. He died. The idea of facing just those 3 bodies, was something beyond SM Jiraiya. He specifically
 says this.


> You'd have to insert headcanon in everything you say about what occurred between Jiraiya and Orochimaru (in specifics) as we don't see what happened or how it happened. If your argument relies heavily on this no showing, then you have no case. We don't know what Jiraiya tried and what he didn't


No we know he lost every time and failed. Jiraiya could never surpass his genius friend, never bring him back to to the village and consequently could never become Hokage.


> Jiraiya vs Sick/Hurt 3T Sasuke (who may or may not use Amaterasu), Jugo, Suigetsu and Karin (who did nothing battle wise?)
> 
> Yea, Jiraiya wins that pretty easy


Yes funny the manga disagrees with you.

The manga makes it clear on numerous occasions.

PA SM Naruto was stronger than Jiraiya.

I will break down the statements very slowly for you.

*1.Tsunade - Naruto is currently training to surpass Jiraiya.
*
It's made very clear Naruto is training and will come back stronger than Jiraiya.

2. *Pa-He's displaying the rings around the eyes proof of successful Sagehood. And no frog aspects either!. This might mean Naruto boy has become a Sage exceeding Jiraiya boy.*

Pa hints Naruto is doing a better job than Jiraiya and is going to surpass him

3. *Pa- Naruto boy has surpassed his predecessors. *

We are outright told Naruto has surpassed Jiraiya AND Minato

4. *Pain -You are truly strong. This is the farthest Pain has ever been pushed.*

Pain confirms PA Naruto is stronger than Jiraiya and given him the toughest fight ever.


Then we have lots of confirmation that Taka Sasuke is only a bit weaker than SM Naruto, about Minato level and stronger than than SM Jiraiya.

1. *Bee-Well that sharingan due is probably the toughest fellow I've ever fought I got carried away.*

Bee tells us Taka Sasuke is about Minato level. So Bee makes it clear Taka Sasuke is about Minato level.

*2. 8 tails- Did you really need to call on me when you had the upper hand?*

8 Tails tells us that Bee is still better than a Minato level ninja and Taka backing him up. Bee quite clearly above Minato, let alone SM Jiraiya level.

3*. Zetsu -That's right he has become extremely strong. In fact I think he's stronger than Sasuke right now.*

Zetsu confirms what we know. Taka Sasuke is a bit weaker, than SM Naruto, but this still puts him around Minato level and better than SM Jiraiya.


*Conclusion.
*
I can give more examples, but it's very clear this is the scale.

Bee> SM Naruto=MS Sasuke>Minato/Taka Sasuke>Jiraiya.[/QUOTE]


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## Reddan (May 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Reddan please go back and re-read this thread and my posts and then when you understand I never said Yomi Numa is Jiriaya most powerful
> jutsu; and that I never said to take the Anime Seriously; I’ll expect and apology for this Straw man shit your tying to pull here


I don't pull strawmans, I responding to a comment you just made. 

Yomi Numa is never hyped up as one of Jiraiya's best jutsu or something he resorts to, to win big fights. We have seen the three jutsu, which he did hype. 

It's made very clear in the manga the scale and Bee, is above SM Jiraiya.


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## Shazam (May 10, 2020)

Reddan said:


> He failed to catch the other bodies. He died. The idea of facing just those 3 bodies, was something beyond SM Jiraiya. He specifically
> says this.



Jiraiya was lacking intel. All of his attacks were getting blocked or absorbed. Of course at this time he would think he would lose. But we see 3 bodies go down without a scratch of Jiraiya. Futhermore your argument seems to have no purpose. What point are you even trying to make here?


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## Reddan (May 10, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Jiraiya was lacking intel. All of his attacks were getting blocked or absorbed. Of course at this time he would think he would lose. But we see 3 bodies go down without a scratch of Jiraiya. Futhermore your argument seems to have no purpose. What point are you even trying to make here?


Yes after Jiraiya used his best genjutsu, which surprised everyone. Jiraiya still makes it clear 3 bodies are too much for him to fight directly. The point is very clear. Jiraiya couldn't catch all 3 bodies.

Not to mention, I have given several statements pinpointing Jiraiya's level. 

Jiraiya is ever so slightly below Taka Sasuke/Minato. Bee as a kid countered Minato, whilst being tagged. He then was beating a ninja stronger than SM Jiraiya, on Minato's level, whilst Taka Sasuke had back up.


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## Turrin (May 10, 2020)

Reddan said:


> I don't pull strawmans, I responding to a comment you just made.
> 
> Yomi Numa is never hyped up as one of Jiraiya's best jutsu or something he resorts to, to win big fights. We have seen the three jutsu, which he did hype.
> 
> It's made very clear in the manga the scale and Bee, is above SM Jiraiya.


Okay cool quote me when I said Yomi Numa was one of Jiriaya’s best Jutsu. 

Quote me when I said to take the Anime seriously.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 10, 2020)

B stomps. 

The off panel altercation between kn4 & Jiraiya was to emphasise the power of the Fox not the power of the toad.  So goodbye argumentum ad
Portrayalum.

Who knows how Jiraiya escaped that scrap.  Perhaps he got bopped and Naruto eventually came to his senses.  Strong possibility of this being a non feat.

Yomi Numa hasn’t the feats to trap a chakra monstrousity like bee, who will merely use the ox-topus’ chakra and V2’s powerful legs to propel himself out the swamp.  Jman needs better prey than a rando summon and a blind human path.... who by the way... was already using his own chakra to stick to the ceiling..

Good to see the sanidiots out in force.  By all means keep us amused with your “profound” thoughts.


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## Kisame (May 10, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> B stomps.
> 
> The off panel altercation between kn4 & Jiraiya was to emphasise the power of the Fox not the power of the toad.


Yes, the power of the fox in relation to Jiraiya...

The emphasis is "KN4 is so strong he almost killed Jiraiya".

Which logically necessitates that Jiraiya is the benchmark for "really strong".


> Who knows how Jiraiya escaped that scrap.  Perhaps he got bopped and Naruto eventually came to his senses.


Perhaps an unsuspecting Jiraiya was attacked by KN4, then a critically injured, no killing intent, base Jiraiya won over KN4.


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## Hardcore (May 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Hardcore I’m done with this discussion if your going to just keep repeating yourself and saying I’m not giving evidence.
> 
> For example somehow I’m not giving evidence; when I cite the Manga fact that Sasuke was injured when facing B; and then later show when he is not injured he is able to aim dodge RCM Ei4 without an issue. How is that not evidence?
> 
> ...



giving excuses is not addressing

anyways here's another way

why couldn't the guy just do kage bunshins and pull himself out low diffing it, what excuse will you give?



Shark said:


> Perhaps an unsuspecting Jiraiya was attacked by KN4, then a critically injured, no killing intent, base Jiraiya won over KN4.



the way it happened in the non-canon anime, kn4 won and naruto saved the day

easily could have been that way


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## Kisame (May 10, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> the way it happened in the non-canon anime, kn4 won and naruto saved the day
> 
> easily could have been that way


Keyword: non-canon.


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## Turrin (May 10, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> giving excuses is not addressing
> 
> anyways here's another way
> 
> ...


Since when can B used Kage Bushin lol.

And if your calling my points excuses I don’t understand what counts as evidence for you. Can you give me an example of what would be evidence in this situation.


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## Reddan (May 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Since when can B used Kage Bushin lol.
> 
> And if your calling my points excuses I don’t understand what counts as evidence for you. Can you give me an example of what would be evidence in this situation.


Bee can use ink clones and lots of them, powerful enough to use sealing jutsu on the Jinchuriki.


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## Hardcore (May 10, 2020)

Shark said:


> Keyword: non-canon.



closest hint we have 



Turrin said:


> Since when can B used Kage Bushin lol.
> 
> And if your calling my points excuses I don’t understand what counts as evidence for you. Can you give me an example of what would be evidence in this situation.



everyone can use bunshin, it's a genin technique


*Spoiler*: __ 








anyways those ink clones could pull him out

the excuse?


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## Turrin (May 10, 2020)

Reddan said:


> Bee can use ink clones and lots of them, powerful enough to use sealing jutsu on the Jinchuriki.


In BM which is restricted. Even if you just want to assume he can do it in Base (cause reasons), and without hand-seas, the Ink clones just also sink into the swamp.


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## Turrin (May 10, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> closest hint we have
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That don’t have physical form

In BM which is restricted. Even if you just want to assume he can do it in Base (cause reasons), and without hand-seas, the Ink clones just also sink into the swamp.

And again I ask what counts as evidence for you. I could play this game with you saying your BS about ink clones pulling B out is an excuse for him not getting owned by Yomi Numa, but instead I’m address them 

Don’t make me write you off a troll Hardcore


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## Hardcore (May 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> That don’t have physical form
> 
> In BM which is restricted. Even if you just want to assume he can do it in Base (cause reasons), and without hand-seas, the Ink clones just also sink into the swamp.
> 
> ...



he could just create them above him and use them to pull him out, they have physical form, enough to carry/grab the jins

it's not BS, all what i'm saying was shown on panel, and yomi numa has caught people who can't clone so that's a legit way to get out of it

i've already provided many such as chakra tails and arm extension or lightning which is its counter

but i'm still trying to see if you can ever change your mind, i'm the one who is in position to write you off mate

what counts as evidence is proving yomi numa can KO physically strong characters like V2 jins and that jiraya can catch characters much faster than him with it, since it in the manga it seemed more like a trap to temporarily immobilize opponents which were all much physically weaker than V2 jins(proved)


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## Reddan (May 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> In BM which is restricted. Even if you just want to assume he can do it in Base (cause reasons), and without hand-seas, the Ink clones just also sink into the swamp.


Yes why wouldn't Bee be able to do them without using BM? No I don't assume he can do them without handseals in base mode.

Why would they sink into the swamp, but this swamp talk is a joke.

Why exactly is Jiraiya going to catch a faster, stronger, smarter more durable opponent in his swamp? Why won't be hit him with a closeline and cave in his chest? Why is Jiraiya not going to be impaled. 

Not to mention why won't Samehada absorb the chakra from the mud as well?


Bee without BM>>SM Naruto=MS Sasuke>Taka Sasuke=Minato>SM Jiraiya

Confirmed with feats and backed up by manga statements by several characters in several different chapters.


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## Turrin (May 10, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> he could just create them above him and use them to pull him out, they have physical form, enough to carry/grab the jins
> 
> it's not BS, all what i'm saying was shown on panel, and yomi numa has caught people who can't clone so that's a legit way to get out of it
> 
> ...


Assuming this is possible Jiriaya just destroys the clones, this a horribly telegraph move. 

How is Human Realm not a physical strong character when he can casually block the punch of a SM user with one hand Hardcore. I’ve asked you this many times.


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## Turrin (May 10, 2020)

Reddan said:


> Yes why wouldn't Bee be able to do them without using BM? No I don't assume he can do them without handseals in base mode.
> 
> Why would they sink into the swamp, but this swamp talk is a joke.
> 
> ...


Based on the bold alone I’m done discussing B with you, that’s the most absurd evaluation of B I ever heard of; we won’t see eye to eye

Edit: Actually no offense but I think that entire ranking is one of the most absurd thing I’ve ever seen on the forums outside of Troy

B *w/o BM >> *MS Sasuke > Taka Sasuke *= *Minato...


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## Hardcore (May 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Assuming this is possible Jiriaya just destroys the clones, this a horribly telegraph move.
> 
> How is Human Realm not a physical strong character when he can casually block the punch of a SM user with one hand Hardcore. I’ve asked you this many times.



if jiraya comes to destroy the clones, he gets destroyed by V2 B

and not saying animal realm is not strong

he is an incomplete SM user who is << sm naruto which is less powerful than kcm naruto who got shocked by A4's physical strength (also supported by many feats such as destroying zabuza's sword and cutting hachibi's horn).. feats that animal realm has no chance of doing

Bee overpowerred him with his strongest phsyical move and V2 B is much above that and has feats/portayal of one-shotting kisame who only survived due to his counter ability and destroying the force field of the strongest alliance barrier makers

the gap is simply big


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## Turrin (May 10, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> if jiraya comes to destroy the clones, he gets destroyed by V2 B
> 
> and not saying animal realm is not strong
> 
> ...


How is V2-B destroying Jiriaya while he’s busy stuck in the swamp spitting out Ink to create clones to pull him out. 

I don’t see evidence for Jiriaya physical strength being lower then Naruto’s in SM. And I’ve already address the rest. So I’m not convinced. I think we better just leave it as agree to disagree as I don’t believe your addressing my points and I have already addressed yours.


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## Hardcore (May 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> How is V2-B destroying Jiriaya while he’s busy stuck in the swamp spitting out Ink to create clones to pull him out.
> 
> I don’t see evidence for Jiriaya physical strength being lower then Naruto’s in SM. And I’ve already address the rest. So I’m not convinced. I think we better just leave it as agree to disagree as I don’t believe your addressing my points and I have already addressed yours.



he'd destroy him with a tail swing since he comes in range, and he'd have to cancel the technique anyways for him to come or he'd get stuck too



and likewise


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## Turrin (May 10, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> he'd destroy him with a tail swing since he comes in range, and he'd have to cancel the technique anyways for him to come or he'd get stuck too
> 
> 
> and likewise


Literally doesn’t need to come into range to destroy clones.


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## Hardcore (May 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Literally doesn’t need to come into range to destroy clones.



as you're saying, he will need to summon a huge swamp, so yes

and anyways then it will become a stamina battle which jiraya will lose anyways

glad it's settled


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 10, 2020)

Shark said:


> Yes, the power of the fox in relation to Jiraiya...
> 
> The emphasis is "KN4 is so strong he almost killed Jiraiya".
> 
> Which logically necessitates that Jiraiya is the benchmark for "really strong".



We’re on the same page fren.

Problem is that the window lickers want to extrapolate the hidden panels to the nines.


Instead of what’s presented “Kn4 nearly killed jman” the opposite “jiriya is so stronk he subdued fox boy without killing him” is the chanted mantra.  The former is evident, the latter requires details that we never got.



> Perhaps an unsuspecting Jiraiya was attacked by KN4, then a critically injured, no killing intent, base Jiraiya won over KN4.



I don’t know how unsuspecting he could have been.

The tails progress from one to four, each stage resulting in a more feral nardo.  The is how things went down with Oro.


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## Kisame (May 10, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> closest hint we have


I mean in the anime fight Yomi Numa worked on KN4 who could one-shot 1000s of snakes with a claw swipe and destroy the bridge with a roar.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hardcore (May 10, 2020)

Shark said:


> I mean in the anime fight Yomi Numa worked on KN4 who could one-shot 1000s of snakes with a claw swipe and destroy the bridge with a roar.



tho jiraya was already defeated by the time he got a chance to catch him 

and then Kn4 struggled from naruto from the interior and jiraya really looked like he wanted naruto to snap asap so yeah


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## Kisame (May 10, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> We’re on the same page fren.
> 
> Problem is that the window lickers want to extrapolate the hidden panels to the nines.
> 
> ...


The idea behind that argument is that Jiraiya _being powerful_ is already established earlier in the story, which is why the emphasis was on "KN4 nearly killed that really strong guy; that's how strong he is".

It's fine to hype KN4 by saying he nearly killed Jiraiya; in fact that's what the author was doing there.

I would say that what really matters is that Jiraiya did win and that's a fact (some phrase it as “jiriya is so stronk he subdued fox boy without killing him”), one can argue against that; however that would necessitate that the argument implies "KN4 isn't really that strong, so Jiraiya beating it isn't impressive".

It just seems people can't accept that you can't hype or de-hype one without the other.


> I don’t know how unsuspecting he could have been.
> 
> The tails progress from one to four, each stage resulting in a more feral nardo.  The is how things went down with Oro.


Jiraiya wanted to test Naruto's control of the fox, Jiraiya knowing there are stages to the tails doesn't prove he wasn't ambushed by KN4 and/or taken off-guard by its strength.


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## Kisame (May 10, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> tho jiraya was already defeated by the time he got a chance to catch him
> 
> and then Kn4 struggled from naruto from the interior and jiraya really looked like he wanted naruto to snap asap so yeah


So critically injured base Jiraiya's Yomi Numa worked on KN4...


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## Hardcore (May 10, 2020)

Shark said:


> So critically injured base Jiraiya's Yomi Numa worked on KN4...



critically injured doesn't make it weaker tho

ye it stopped kn4 but jiraya wanted naruto to snap asap, then immediately kn4 had internal struggles with naruto

so we didn't get to see kn4's response


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## Turrin (May 10, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> as you're saying, he will need to summon a huge swamp, so yes
> 
> and anyways then it will become a stamina battle which jiraya will lose anyways
> 
> glad it's settled


Not really as B just sinks into the swamp completely and can’t make clones anymore


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## Hardcore (May 10, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Not really as B just sinks into the swamp completely and can’t make clones anymore



a clone can push B out faster jiraya reaches his attack to the middle of the big swamp you described

then V2 B lariats jiraya


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 10, 2020)

Shark said:


> The idea behind that argument is that Jiraiya _being powerful_ is already established earlier in the story



A vague designation that won’t save him from B’s long and thick tentacles.



> is why the emphasis was on "KN4 nearly killed that really strong guy; that's how strong he is



How strong the fox is, yes.



> I would say that what really matters is that Jiraiya did win and that's a fact



Is it?

The proof would be in hidden panels.  Only problem is we don’t have hidden panels.  And the devil really is in the detail if we want to gauge Jiraiya.  A Mano e Mano brawl with the fox is much different to what Yamato did, what Jiraiya may have done with prepared aperatus, Whether he did anything at all... 



> Jiraiya wanted to test Naruto's control of the fox, Jiraiya knowing there are stages to the tails doesn't prove he wasn't ambushed by KN4 and/or taken off-guard by its strength.



There’s no proof that’s how he got that scar so how can I prove against it?


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## Kisame (May 10, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> A vague designation that won’t save him from B’s long and thick tentacles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


KN4's hype of being strong is literally based on Jiraiya being strong..if Jiraiya wasn't strong KN4 injuring him doesn't mean anything.

Either there's a narrative comparing Jiraiya and KN4 or there's no strength narrative because "we didn't see it"

If you go with the first then we have to admit Jiraiya is stronger even if slightly because that's what the comparison _literally necessitates_ (that KN4 is strong enough to almost kill Jiraiya).

If there's no narrative of strength comparison then you can't say Jiraiya is stronger, just like you can't say KN4 is strong enough to critically wound Jiraiya - because the same reason for discounting one is used to discount the other I.e _we don't know how_ Jiraiya won just like _we don't know how_ KN4 almost killed him.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 10, 2020)

Quoute me where I claimed Jiraiya wasn’t, using the most generic nomenclature possible, “strong”.

Of course he is strong.  I just said it was a vague designation and one that wouldn’t save him against Bee who’s on a higher tier.


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## Kisame (May 10, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Quoute me where I claimed Jiraiya wasn’t, using the most generic nomenclature possible, “strong”.
> 
> Of course he is strong.  I just said it was a vague designation and one that wouldn’t save him against Bee who’s on a higher tier.


You don't deny he's stronger than KN4?


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 10, 2020)

Shark said:


> You don't deny he's stronger than KN4?



No. He’s about a tier weaker.


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## Turrin (May 10, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> a clone can push B out faster jiraya reaches his attack to the middle of the big swamp you described
> 
> then V2 B lariats jiraya


B needs to spit Ink and then the clone needs to form, pull B out; this isn’t all happening before Jiriaya can use another Ninjutsu.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 11, 2020)

Some of the responses in this thread are part of the reason I take breaks from here now and then. It's not because people disagree with each other, cause that's what makes discussion fun and interesting. But it's how they do it and what they say that gets old and boring and makes me lose interest. For example, its clearly established in the franchise that even in base, Jiraiya is capable of defeating V2 KN4 Naruto (albeit with serious injury). KN4 Naruto, the only V2 Jinchuriki that can casually tear apart large forests with the swipe of its claws and even use TBBs which is physically impossible for any other V2 jinchuriki: V2 Killer B included, clearly showcasing V2 Naruto's great superiority over the rest. Yet, for some reason, Jiraiya, whether he is in SM or not, cannot even form a single hand seal to react to V2 Killer B from 20 meters (who has literally never blitzed anyone especially from this distance who was paying attention) and gets hopelessly blitzed and destroyed. 

Never change you guys, never change!


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## Kisame (May 11, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Some of the responses in this thread are part of the reason I take breaks from here now and then. It's not because people disagree with each other, cause that's what makes discussion fun and interesting. But it's how they do it and what they say that gets old and boring and makes me lose interest. For example, its clearly established in the franchise that even in base, Jiraiya is capable of defeating V2 KN4 Naruto (albeit with serious injury). KN4 Naruto, the only V2 Jinchuriki that can casually tear apart large forests with the swipe of its claws and even use TBBs which is physically impossible for any other V2 jinchuriki: V2 Killer B included, clearly showcasing V2 Naruto's great superiority over the rest. Yet, for some reason, Jiraiya, whether he is in SM or not, cannot even form a single hand seal to react to V2 Killer B from 20 meters (who has literally never blitzed anyone especially from this distance who was paying attention) and gets hopelessly blitzed and destroyed.
> 
> Never change you guys, never change!


You missed the thread where several people believed BM Bee can wipe out more than 10 collective Sannin (that's 30 Sannin for you) at the same time, some were not even sure how many sets of Sannin would be needed to beat BM Bee.

Base Bee > SM Jiraiya has also been argued recently.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (May 12, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Some of the responses in this thread are part of the reason I take breaks from here now and then. It's not because people disagree with each other, cause that's what makes discussion fun and interesting. But it's how they do it and what they say that gets old and boring and makes me lose interest. For example, its clearly established in the franchise that even in base, Jiraiya is capable of defeating V2 KN4 Naruto (albeit with serious injury). KN4 Naruto, the only V2 Jinchuriki that can casually tear apart large forests with the swipe of its claws and even use TBBs which is physically impossible for any other V2 jinchuriki: V2 Killer B included, clearly showcasing V2 Naruto's great superiority over the rest. Yet, for some reason, Jiraiya, whether he is in SM or not, cannot even form a single hand seal to react to V2 Killer B from 20 meters (who has literally never blitzed anyone especially from this distance who was paying attention) and gets hopelessly blitzed and destroyed.
> 
> Never change you guys, never change!





Why did you think that Jiraiya won because he was stronger?

Did you forget that Jiraiya had the key the unseal or reseal the Kyuubi. That means that without the key left behind by Minato it's possible that Jiraiya couldn't do shit to KN4 Naruto (and by feats, Jiraiya really can't do shit).


Jiraiya won't have the key to seal Bee's Jin powers.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 12, 2020)

Sapherosth said:


> Why did you think that Jiraiya won because he was stronger?
> 
> Did you forget that Jiraiya had the key the unseal or reseal the Kyuubi. That means that without the key left behind by Minato it's possible that Jiraiya couldn't do shit to KN4 Naruto (and by feats, Jiraiya really can't do shit).
> 
> ...


We saw how the Key works; you need to touch the targets stomach directly to close/open the seal. If Jiriaya used the key that just means he was able to bust through KN4 shroud exposing Naruto’s stomach and stopping Kn4 long enough to close the seal. If he could do that; then Obviously he could have also just hit his ass with a Rasengan and called it a day. 

It’s harder to beat KN4 without killer intent and use the Key then it is to just kill it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 12, 2020)

> It’s harder to beat KN4 without killer intent and use the Key then it is to just kill it.



That’s not even remotely true.

This logic if fair game for most flesh and blood ninja who can get cut and scraped with sticks, stones, daggers and shuriken.  

kn4 on the other hand is more durable than anything Jiriaya can pelt at it.


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## Sapherosth (May 12, 2020)

Turrin said:


> We saw how the Key works; you need to touch the targets stomach directly to close/open the seal. If Jiriaya used the key that just means he was able to bust through KN4 shroud exposing Naruto’s stomach and stopping Kn4 long enough to close the seal. If he could do that; then Obviously he could have also just hit his ass with a Rasengan and called it a day.
> 
> It’s harder to beat KN4 without killer intent and use the Key then it is to just kill it.




No, it just means that Jiraiya almost died to only be able to touch KN4's stomach. This means that without the key, he wouldn't have been able to stop KN4 since it would just regenerate and keep going. 

The key was what saved Jiraiya's life if we go by feats.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 12, 2020)

Sapherosth said:


> No, it just means that Jiraiya almost died to only be able to touch KN4's stomach. This means that without the key, he wouldn't have been able to stop KN4 since it would just regenerate and keep going.
> 
> The key was what saved Jiraiya's life if we go by feats.



Some potent truths here.  

The JuicyG-strings of NBD want to wank a fight of unknown details.  We know that killing the KN4 is much harder than subduing it's chakra, otherwise Yamato would be 6 foot under, a Kyubi shaped claw embroidering his corpse.  Logically speaking, Jman's only option is sealing tags or the key itself.  Neither of which are transferable to Bee, the prefect Jin, who isn't the nine tails host and can have his entire V2 cloak absorbed only to continue using BM multiple times the same day.


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## Santoryu (May 12, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Some of the responses in this thread are part of the reason I take breaks from here now and then. It's not because people disagree with each other, cause that's what makes discussion fun and interesting. But it's how they do it and what they say that gets old and boring and makes me lose interest.



Aren't you the same guy that said the  Jiraiya and Tsunade beat Kakashi and Gai "*without much trouble*"


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## Santoryu (May 12, 2020)

Yup, it was you



Isaiah13000 said:


> Jiraiya and Tsunade win without much trouble.


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## Serene Grace (May 12, 2020)

I mean you could argue he got surprised and didn’t expect the jump of power. We know little of fight, but I have my doubts he expected KN4 to be anywhere near strong to actually kill him

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 12, 2020)

You guys really need to stop wanking. 

We saw the full might of SM Jiriaya's arsenal against Pain and he's still completely outstripped both offensively and defensively by KN4. He has more versatility with the elder toads, but their best genjutsu, as it pertains to this thread, won't be effective against the perfect Jin.  So V2 Bee is fully capable of winning this without his final form.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JayK (May 12, 2020)

10 pages for a onesided stomp


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## Gulash (May 12, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> You guys really need to stop wanking.
> 
> We saw the full might of SM Jiriaya's arsenal against Pain and he's still completely outstripped both offensively and defensively by KN4. He has more versatility with the elder toads, but their best genjutsu, as it pertains to this thread, won't be effective against the perfect Jin.  So V2 Bee is fully capable of winning this without his final form.


Depends if the beast is hearing the same thing B does or if it hears whats generally going in its vicinity.If it is its gonna also be put in genjustu.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 12, 2020)

Shark said:


> You missed the thread where several people believed BM Bee can wipe out more than 10 collective Sannin (that's 30 Sannin for you) at the same time, some were not even sure how many sets of Sannin would be needed to beat BM Bee.
> 
> Base Bee > SM Jiraiya has also been argued recently.


 That's pretty sad dude, thinking Killer B can solo all 3 at once is already a big stretch but that's just on a whole other level of crazy.



Sapherosth said:


> Why did you think that Jiraiya won because he was stronger?
> 
> Did you forget that Jiraiya had the key the unseal or reseal the Kyuubi. That means that without the key left behind by Minato it's possible that Jiraiya couldn't do shit to KN4 Naruto (and by feats, Jiraiya really can't do shit).
> 
> ...


Because as @Turrin explained, and as I remember, the seal doesn't work that way. He would have had to bypass KN4 Naruto's cloak in order to do that, meaning he must've been able to damage him. So realistically he shouldn't have that much of a problem with V2 B. 


Santoryu said:


> Aren't you the same guy that said the  Jiraiya and Tsunade beat Kakashi and Gai "*without much trouble*"


That has absolutely nothing to do with this thread so I don't see the relevance here.


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## Zero890 (May 12, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> Aren't you the same guy that said the  Jiraiya and Tsunade beat Kakashi and Gai "*without much trouble*"



He said the truth


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## Santoryu (May 12, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> He said the truth


And yet you said 'mid diff' in the same thread.

Put your clothes back on.


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## Zero890 (May 12, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> And yet you said 'mid diff' in the same thread.
> 
> Put your clothes back on.



Don't blame me for saying facts


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## t0xeus (May 12, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Some of the responses in this thread are part of the reason I take breaks from here now and then. It's not because people disagree with each other, cause that's what makes discussion fun and interesting. But it's how they do it and what they say that gets old and boring and makes me lose interest. For example, its clearly established in the franchise that even in base, Jiraiya is capable of defeating V2 KN4 Naruto (albeit with serious injury). KN4 Naruto, the only V2 Jinchuriki that can casually tear apart large forests with the swipe of its claws and even use TBBs which is physically impossible for any other V2 jinchuriki: V2 Killer B included, clearly showcasing V2 Naruto's great superiority over the rest. Yet, for some reason, Jiraiya, whether he is in SM or not, cannot even form a single hand seal to react to V2 Killer B from 20 meters (who has literally never blitzed anyone especially from this distance who was paying attention) and gets hopelessly blitzed and destroyed.
> 
> Never change you guys, never change!


The problem might be that you made yourself believe that thinking Jiraiya>KN4 Naruto is more factual than not thinking that was the case, considering the only piece of information we have is that Jiraiya was injured, and that he somehow managed to suppress KN4.

Which obviously does not prove he defeated him, as we know Jiraiya has a piece of paper that suppresses Kurama's chakra by slapping it on Naruto's forehead.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santoryu (May 12, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> Don't blame me for saying facts



i hope you know there is a difference between 'without much trouble' and 'mid diffs'.
Even Jiraiya gave Pain considerable trouble.

Your nose is growing bigger


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## Bonly (May 12, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Some of the responses in this thread are part of the reason I take breaks from here now and then. It's not because people disagree with each other, cause that's what makes discussion fun and interesting. But it's how they do it and what they say that gets old and boring and makes me lose interest. For example, its clearly established in the franchise that even in base, Jiraiya is capable of defeating V2 KN4 Naruto (albeit with serious injury). KN4 Naruto, the only V2 Jinchuriki that can casually tear apart large forests with the swipe of its claws and even use TBBs which is physically impossible for any other V2 jinchuriki: V2 Killer B included, clearly showcasing V2 Naruto's great superiority over the rest. Yet, for some reason, Jiraiya, whether he is in SM or not, cannot even form a single hand seal to react to V2 Killer B from 20 meters (who has literally never blitzed anyone especially from this distance who was paying attention) and gets hopelessly blitzed and destroyed.
> 
> Never change you guys, never change!



We’re in the era of Killer B wanking, drink it in man


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## Ishmael (May 12, 2020)

The fact that people think jiraiya beats Bee  Good sht boys

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (May 12, 2020)

Bee requires BM to win against Jiraiya, especially Sage Mode Jiraiya. He mid diffs Bee up until he uses Bijuu Mode


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 12, 2020)

Jiraiya needs SM just to keep up with Bee's base form more like.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Braiyan (May 12, 2020)

Not sure why this is 16 pages, Bee wins pretty handily. With full knowledge Bee knows he will have the advantage in close range and with V1/2 he becomes way too fast, strong and tanky for Jiraiya to handle. Jiraiya gets his chest caved in with a Lariat.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (May 12, 2020)

Not sure why this is 16 pages, Jiraiya wins pretty handily. With full knowledge Jiraiya knows he will have his advantage at mid to long range and against someone whose V1 speed still allowed for 3T injured Sasuke to completely dodge and for Jugo to react and save Karin/Suigetsu from his attacks (and only landed a fatal blow on a blindside), Jiraiya will be able to handle it perfectly fine. (Especially since he handled without intent to harm in base a stronger V2 - KN4 Naruto), Bee gets killed by a toad mouth bind, or ripped apart with Lions Mane, or his face caved in by a Rasengan, or fried with Gamayu Enda (you pick)


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 12, 2020)

I think you'll find that very few people care about the opinions of a JuicyG-string.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (May 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> The problem might be that you made yourself believe that thinking Jiraiya>KN4 Naruto is more factual than not thinking that was the case, considering the only piece of information we have is that Jiraiya was injured, and that he somehow managed to suppress KN4.
> 
> Which obviously does not prove he defeated him, as we know Jiraiya has a piece of paper that suppresses Kurama's chakra by slapping it on Naruto's forehead.


That only works if Naruto has one tail sprouted last time I checked, it doesn't work on Naruto once he gets to his higher forms.


Bonly said:


> We’re in the era of Killer B wanking, drink it in man


Yeah I've noticed, there's always different eras of wank.


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## t0xeus (May 12, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> That only works if Naruto has one tail sprouted last time I checked, it doesn't work on Naruto once he gets to his higher forms.


Where was that stated or implied?


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## Isaiah13000 (May 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Where was that stated or implied?



*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*


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## t0xeus (May 12, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> *Link Removed*


Because he's at his weakest, right?

Waiting till he gets to KN4 would be a bad idea is what Jiraiya is saying.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Because he's at his weakest, right?
> 
> Waiting till he gets to KN4 would be a bad idea is what Jiraiya is saying.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 12, 2020)

Not to mention that Kakashi actually used it against two tails Naruto when he started transforming.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Because he's at his weakest, right?
> 
> Waiting till he gets to KN4 would be a bad idea is what Jiraiya is saying.


Well if that wasn't enough, there's also these statements: 

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed**Link Removed**Link Removed*


 If Jiraiya really had the power to suppress even KN4 Naruto anytime he wanted and needed to I don't think they would be so reliant on Yamato and the necklace for it. It doesn't sound like there is much that Jiraiya is capable of doing once Naruto goes KN4 to suppress him, which is why he says he needs to be suppressed before he advances too far. That's why I believe the only logical thing left is that Jiraiya must've physically defeated Naruto in order to suppress him after a hard fight. On top of this, we see a *weakened* (couldn't use any jutsu that required hand seals and host body was rejecting him) Orochimaru (who is definitely weaker than Jiraiya at that point) tango with KN4 Naruto just fine for a while (even though he probably would've lost eventually). So there's no reason that Jiraiya shouldn't be able to do the same, and definitely no reason Jiraiya shouldn't be able to handle a much weaker V2 Jinchuriki.


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## t0xeus (May 12, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Well if that wasn't enough, there's also these statements:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


It's far more risky for Jiraiya to rely on a sealing tag he has to directly insert on Naruto's forehead, rather than on Yamato who can just cast a long-range ninjutsu and instantly suppress it.

Plus there might not be so many sealing tags in the first place. He gave Kakashi just one, after all, IIRC.

So with the fact @Ziggy Stardust brought into spotlight of the sealing tag working on 2-tailed Naruto, there's no dispute over the fact that this is the way Jiraiya could've handled things back then.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 12, 2020)

Sounds like the shitter theory, much less logical.

Doesn't make any sense when you look at the features - that Kn4 is massively ahead of Base Jiraiya's offensive arsenal, and couldn't even be pierced by the Ksunagi.  No base jman physically overpowering the demon is a wet dream.

The more sound theory ; he nearly died trying to place that tag, or a few, on KN4.


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## t0xeus (May 12, 2020)

@Isaiah13000 also consider the fact that Jiraiya's goal in the training with Naruto was to teach him how to control Kurama's chakra.

It'd be illogical for him to go do that if he hadn't taken some precautionary measures such as bringing the sealing tag beforehand.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> It's far more risky for Jiraiya to rely on a sealing tag he has to directly insert on Naruto's forehead, rather than on Yamato who can just cast a long-range ninjutsu and instantly suppress it.
> 
> Plus there might not be so many sealing tags in the first place. He gave Kakashi just one, after all, IIRC.
> 
> So with the fact @Ziggy Stardust brought into spotlight of the sealing tag working on 2-tailed Naruto, there's no dispute over the fact that this is the way Jiraiya could've handled things back then.





t0xeus said:


> @Isaiah13000 also consider the fact that Jiraiya's goal in the training with Naruto was to teach him how to control Kurama's chakra.
> 
> It'd be illogical for him to go do that if he hadn't taken some precautionary measures such as bringing the sealing tag beforehand.


Alright, I still think it's more logical that Jiraiya actually defeated KN4 Naruto instead of just using the seal but ultimately I cannot prove that nor disprove what you said since it's all unknown. So I'll just leave it alone, so now I'll ask do you believe that V2 B wins this fight? If so, why do you? What has V2 B done that indicates that Jiraiya cannot handle him?


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## t0xeus (May 12, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Alright, I still think it's more logical that Jiraiya actually defeated KN4 Naruto instead of just using the seal but ultimately I cannot prove that nor disprove what you said since it's all unknown. So I'll just leave it alone, so now I'll ask do you believe that V2 B wins this fight? If so, why do you? What has V2 B done that indicates that Jiraiya cannot handle him?


1- Well I have no problem with someone _thinking_ that Jiraiya won against KN4 fair and square. I just don't like when people pressure others into accepting it as a fact.

2- I have Bee winning.
He has a big strength, speed, durability and stamina advantage. Dotons/Katons are countered with Samehada/Partial Transformations, and he eventually gets into a position where Lariat seals the deal with his Raiton sword distractions.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- Well I have no problem with someone _thinking_ that Jiraiya won against KN4 fair and square. I just don't like when people pressure others into accepting it as a fact.


 Fair enough.


> 2- I have Bee winning.
> He has a big strength, speed, durability and stamina advantage. Dotons/Katons are countered with Samehada/Partial Transformations, and he eventually gets into a position where Lariat seals the deal with his Raiton sword distractions.


Killer B definitely has the physical stats advantage, but Jiraiya can compensate for that by relying on his jutsu arsenal. Now you say Samehada can counter Jiraiya's Earth and Fire Releases, it could counter his Earth, but I don't think Samehada can counter the fire. It was hurt and burned when it absorbed Itachi's basic Fireball and scolded B for it, so we know Samehada is still susceptible to damage when absorbing things depending on what it is. 

So if Jiraiya were to summon Bunta to help him and use Toad Oil Flame Bullet Samehada should be roasted alive by it since it's much hotter as it uses oil to magnify itself. So Samehada should definitely have trouble absorbing it, and Killer B should be harmed by it even in V2. I believe this because TBM Killer B was burned by Obito's Uchiha Flame Formation barrier, which isn't even enhanced by oil, so B's much weaker form such as V2 should be burned alive when doused by even hotter flames such as Jiraiya's Toad Oil Flame Bullet. Furthermore, Bunta could always use his sword (that could cut through Shukaku's body) to kill Killer B too. Between Jiraiya and Bunta both working together (such as Jiraiya using Wild Lion's Mane on B while Bunta slashes or stabs him) he should be able to kill B.


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## Kisame (May 12, 2020)

@Isaiah13000

The whole point of that scene was to hype _KN4's power_, how? By stating he _almost killed Jiraiya_, someone who is already established as a strong person by that point in the manga - thus is used as a reference point for KN4.

The idea is "KN4 is strong enough to almost kill Jiraiya" which necessitates that Jiraiya >= KN4.

Excuses such as he won cheaply can simply be countered by "Jiraiya was hurt unsuspectingly and suddenly and then managed to win in critical condition with no KI against KN4" since we don't know how it unfolded we can make up anything, but the author isn't telling you "Jiraiya almost died to this strong opponent" for us to conclude "that opponent is much stronger than Jiraiya". If he wanted us to think Jiraiya was weaker he would have had Jiraiya say something about it but instead Jiraiya just says he barely won.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- Well I have no problem with someone _thinking_ that Jiraiya won against KN4 fair and square. I just don't like when people pressure others into accepting it as a fact.
> 
> 2- I have Bee winning.
> He has a big strength, speed, durability and stamina advantage. Dotons/Katons are countered with Samehada/Partial Transformations, and he eventually gets into a position where Lariat seals the deal with his Raiton sword distractions.


How is Jiriaya winning with a chakra sealing tag not fair and square T0x. Literally if his chakra sealer can instantly suppress KN4 it’s one of the most broken things ever.


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## Zero890 (May 12, 2020)

Shark said:


> @Isaiah13000
> 
> The whole point of that scene was to hype _KN4's power_, how? By stating he _almost killed Jiraiya_, someone who is already established as a strong person by that point in the manga - thus is used as a reference point for KN4.
> 
> ...



But but Kn4 is a tier above


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## Kisame (May 12, 2020)

Turrin said:


> How is Jiriaya winning with a chakra sealing tag not fair and square T0x. Literally if his chakra sealer can instantly suppress KN4 it’s one of the most broken things ever.


When it comes to Jiraiya vs KN4 it's simply a matter of "I don't think Jiraiya has enough pow pow and energy beams to overcome KN4 feat-wise so it must not be true what the manga is saying somehow".


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 12, 2020)

Shark said:


> When it comes to Jiraiya vs KN4 it's simply a matter of "I don't think Jiraiya has enough pow pow and energy beams to overcome KN4 feat-wise *so it must not be true what the manga is saying somehow*".



The problem is in the last part.  

It was never implied or hinted at that Jiriaya could overcome a brawl with KN4.  

The portrayal is not there.  Didn't you agree with me earlier?  That the portrayal argument was for KN4, not jiriaya himself.

And seen as there is no exposition in regards to exactly how Jman prevailed, we go to the most logical conclusions. 

> He has sealing tags to suppress the nine tails chakra 
> he probably used them given nothing in his arsenal that can even harm Kn4.


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## Turrin (May 12, 2020)

Shark said:


> When it comes to Jiraiya vs KN4 it's simply a matter of "I don't think Jiraiya has enough pow pow and energy beams to overcome KN4 feat-wise so it must not be true what the manga is saying somehow".


But he actually does; people just have a strong Hate for Yomi Numa which is how he wins this; and not that I give much credit to the Anime Team, but it’s how they thought he won it too lol


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 12, 2020)

Turrin said:


> But he actually does; people just have a strong Hate for Yomi Numa which is how he wins this; and not that I give much credit to the Anime Team, but it’s how they thought he won it too lol



Kn4 can obliterate the entire swamp and them some even if his body was fully submerged.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 12, 2020)

Shark said:


> @Isaiah13000
> 
> The idea is "KN4 is strong enough to almost kill Jiraiya" which necessitates that Jiraiya >= KN4.



This is a complete non sequitur.  The argument that KN4 gets hype for nearly killing Jman doesn't necessitate the latter being his superior at all. 

when @Shazam & @Zero890  are the ones liking your posts, you should stop and realise that your logic is slipping off a cliff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zero890 (May 12, 2020)

You know instantly you are right when Ziggy quotes you


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 12, 2020)

Indeed.



Ziggy Stardust said:


> This is a complete non sequitur.  The argument that KN4 gets hype for nearly killing Jman doesn't necessitate the latter being his superior at all.
> 
> when @Shazam & @Zero890  are the ones liking your posts, you should stop and realise that your logic is slipping off a cliff.


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## Kisame (May 12, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> This is a complete non sequitur.  The argument that KN4 gets hype for nearly killing Jman doesn't necessitate the latter being his superior at all.
> 
> when @Shazam & @Zero890  are the ones liking your posts, you should stop and realise that your logic is slipping off a cliff.


Yeah but the real question is, are you sorry for what you said about Hussain?


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 12, 2020)

Shark said:


> Yeah but the real question is, are you sorry for what you said about Hussain?



Refresh my memory.  Was it calling him an inbred ?


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## Shazam (May 12, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Refresh my memory.  Was it calling him an inbred ?



I think something about being racist


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## Symmetry (May 12, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Kn4 couldn't even consistently tag a half dead Orochimaru




That’s a feat for Orochimaru


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## Shazam (May 13, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Based on?
> 
> Kn4 couldn't even consistently tag a half dead Orochimaru
> 
> ...



Wow 

Why is KN4 superior to V2 Bee?


How about better feats?
Can use TBBs
Kurama > 8Tails?
Battled Sannin as opposed to one placing himself leagues below them? (Oh wait.. Retcon God Kisame lol)
Comparing what A4 did against Sasuke?


A4 fought a stronger version of Sasuke?
Who wasn't injured from a fight from Itachi
Who could use Susanoo
And actively use Amaterasu at will?
Where does Jiraiya stand?


Subduing a stronger V2 without intent to harm or kill
While in Base
And you think Sage Mode Jiraiya is weaker than BASE Bee and would lose? 


I can't.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shazam (May 13, 2020)

BM Bee > SM Jiraiya >> Base Jiraiya > V2 Bee >> Base Bee


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## Zero890 (May 13, 2020)

Shazam said:


> weaker than BASE Bee



Wanking Kisame and downplaying Jiraiya, very convenient for him

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (May 13, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> Wanking Kisame and downplaying Jiraiya, very convenient for him



Very typical of him actually


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## Troyse22 (May 13, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Why is KN4 superior to V2 Bee?
> 
> 
> How about better feats?



Where?

Where are his better feats? Bee blitzed Kisame who has reactions WAY faster than a healthy or sick Orochimaru and left a gaping hole in his torso while he was using Samehada as a shield. Thats insane strength and speed that KN4 has yet to be shown to be capable of. He also blitzed Nagato, again, something Jiraiya failed horribly at accomplishing against his vastly weaker paths 



Shazam said:


> Can use TBBs



Cool.

Long charge time as KN4, leaves himself wide open.

Even Oro could have feasibly interrupted it, instead, he fucking dicks around like he always does.



Shazam said:


> Kurama > 8Tails?



Comparing a full Bijuu to cloaked forms

Comparing a lesser cloak to a better cloak (8 tails vs 4)

The IQ of the Sannin camp always...surprises me to say the least.



Shazam said:


> Battled Sannin as opposed to one placing himself leagues below them? (Oh wait.. Retcon God Kisame lol)



Ah yes, the Sannin camps denial at how their favs get shit diff molested by Itachi or Kisame  1v3 



Shazam said:


> A4 fought a stronger version of Sasuke?
> 
> Who wasn't injured from a fight from Itachi



If you could read, which I know the Sannin camp struggles GREATLY with, you'd see im referencing their respective base forms.

Base Bee performed better than V1 Ay. Why is that? Bee managed to pressure Sasuke into a purely defensive fight, and still lose without his teams intervention. 

Sasuke managed to not only defend against Ay, but go on the attack. While the wound was inconsequential, its better than what he did against Bee, which was nothing.


Ah yes, Sasuke was weakened even though he got healed by Karin like 2 times in that fight and literally had life force injected into him by Juugo.

MS Sasuke is also stronger than Minato, we know.

Use your head and ignore baseless hype statements regarding Sasuke in that fight because they don't make any bit of sense.



Shazam said:


> Who could use Susanoo
> 
> And actively use Amaterasu at will?



Ok? I'm not saying Sasukes MS arsenal isn't superior, I'm saying, in Sasukes base form (3t) he performed better against Ay than Bee.



Shazam said:


> Where does Jiraiya stand?
> 
> 
> Subduing a stronger V2 without intent to harm or kill



Ah yes, slapping a seal tag on his forehead which BoS Kakashi could do  what a hero, im sure only a Sannin could accomplish that.

The infamously slow, stupid and mindless KN4 is a god tier thing, surely V2 Bee with his superior feats in EVERY area short of TBB cant even fathom that power!!



Shazam said:


> While in Base



Ok



Shazam said:


> And you think Sage Mode Jiraiya is weaker than BASE Bee and would lose?



How does Jiraiya answer Bees sword dance? His reactions and feats of speed are abysmal, his strength is a joke, couldnt even overpower human path, meanwhile Bee is fast enough and evasive enough to dodge EVERYTHING the summons carrying Jiraiya could throw, and not only that, Base Bees strength is>>V1 Ay, who was literally stated to be strong enough to seriously hurt KCM Naruto "Man he's strong, I NEED to avoid a direct a hit"



Zero890 said:


> Wanking Kisame and downplaying Jiraiya, very convenient for him



Not wank at all, Bee is an absolute monster, its people like you who downplay him and act like he's some fodder trash

He's literally one of the strongest Shinobi in the manga, and could be argued to push the fuck out of NAGATO, something that CANNOT be said for the Sannin, who at best, as a trio, can beat Pain.


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## Troyse22 (May 13, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> This is a complete non sequitur.  The argument that KN4 gets hype for nearly killing Jman doesn't necessitate the latter being his superior at all.
> 
> when @Shazam & @Zero890  are the ones liking your posts, you should stop and realise that your logic is slipping off a cliff.



When Shazam, Zero, Shark, Turrin, Matto  Jiraiyaflash or whoever else like a post, put that post under a microscope because its more than likely shit


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## Zero890 (May 13, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Where?
> 
> Where are his better feats? Bee blitzed Kisame who has reactions WAY faster than a healthy or sick Orochimaru and left a gaping hole in his torso while he was using Samehada as a shield. Thats insane strength and speed that KN4 has yet to be shown to be capable of. He also blitzed Nagato, again, something Jiraiya failed horribly at accomplishing against his vastly weaker paths
> 
> ...



Stop Troyse this is bad 



Troyse22 said:


> put that post under a microscope because its more than likely shit



Its more than likely a good post


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2020)

While I don't fuck with most of Troyse's posts, saying base Jiraiya > v2 Bee is some neg-worthy shit lmao


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## Zero890 (May 13, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> While I don't fuck with most of Troyse's posts, saying base Jiraiya > v2 Bee is some neg-worthy shit lmao



Base Bee>SM Jiraiya is way worse tho 

Also what do you think about Kn4 in comparasion with V2 Bee?


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> Base Bee>SM Jiraiya is way worse tho



Idk about way worse, both stupid as fuck for sure



> Also what do you think about Kn4 in comparasion with V2 Bee?



v2 Bee is hilariously superior in every way but Bijūdama; this is a guy who in his _base_ was keeping up with Edo Itachi in CQC

The same Edo Itachi who physically is > Hebi Sasuke, who is > BoS Sasuke who embarrasses 3T Naruto by Oro's own admission

Let's not even bring into the discussion base Bee's random freak feats of overpowering v1 Raikage's Lariat because the gap becomes even more obvious

An extra tail does not remotely make up for not only that big-ass gap but *another v2 power-up *stacked on top turning said gap into a mile-wide gulf

So in summation, v2 Bee >> KN4 in stats, Bijūdama could close the gap if it weren't so slow and took so long to charge

So v2 Bee is > overall, easily

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (May 13, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> Stop Troyse this is bad
> 
> 
> 
> Its more than likely a good post



Concession accepted, move along


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## Troyse22 (May 13, 2020)

Wait this isn't a joke? Sannin wankers genuinely believe KN4>V2 Bee

Holy fuck


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2020)

FWIW I don't think Jiraiya is making it to SM if he's up against a v2 Jin of this calibur

We already saw Taka Sasuke impressed with the guy's speed with just v1

Gamaken is not going to play keep-away successfully this time around

That said, *SM* Jiraiya would beat v2 Bee, mid-high diff, so there's that

BM Bee (_wide gap_) > SM Jiraiya > v2 Bee > base Jiraiya ~ v1 Bee > base Bee


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## Troyse22 (May 13, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> *SM* Jiraiya would beat v2 Bee


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


>



If you want to know my thoughts on why just ask lmao


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## Troyse22 (May 13, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> If you want to know my thoughts on why just ask lmao



I'm not into hearing the same recycled "FCD into YN" fanfic shit.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> I'm not into hearing the same recycled "FCD into YN" fanfic shit.



Nah, those can definitely slow him down but not kill v2 Bee

He's not tanking a SMCOR though and that's all she wrote


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## Troyse22 (May 13, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> He's not tanking a SMCOR though and that's all she wrote





SMCOR's best feat is from Naruto, and that's not doing a goddamn thing to Madara's RIBCAGE Susanoo.

But yeah sure it one shots someone who dicktanked his own fucking TBB


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## Troyse22 (May 13, 2020)

Bee legit tanked a direct Chidori to the chest IN BASE and the worst of it was a momentary stun for him which he recovered from in like....1 second

"A slightly superior comparable technique one shots him in a VASTLY amped state"

Fucking Sannin camp holy shit


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## Zero890 (May 13, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Concession accepted, move along



It's not good for mental health to have a discussion with you


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## Troyse22 (May 13, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> It's not good for mental health to have a discussion with you



Yeah, you guys start questioning your own sanity, so it's best for you to stay in your own little bubble


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## Zero890 (May 13, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> The same Edo Itachi who physically is > Hebi Sasuke, who is > BoS Sasuke who embarrasses 3T Naruto by Oro's own admission



None of these guys are comparable to KN3 Naruto in physical stats at all. I don't think Oro was talking about that, he just said Sasuke was stronger overall.


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## t0xeus (May 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> How is Jiriaya winning with a chakra sealing tag not fair and square T0x. Literally if his chakra sealer can instantly suppress KN4 it’s one of the most broken things ever.


Wait what?
I'm saying that if one believes that he didn't have chakra sealing tag, that it would be Jiraiya winning fair and square.

Personally I believe he had the sealing tag tho.


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## Troyse22 (May 13, 2020)

A clunky tag that seals KN4 levels of chakra elevates Jiraiya an entire tier

A sword that absorbs V2 levels of chakra is average and countered casually by the entire kage level bracket


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## PocketGod (May 13, 2020)

Base Bee turns Base Jiraiya into a pin cushion and V1 Bee caves SM Jiraiya's chest in, fun times.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> How is Jiriaya winning with a chakra sealing tag not fair and square T0x. Literally if his chakra sealer can instantly suppress KN4 it’s one of the most broken things ever.



Because it's not clear how transferable that skill is. 

And who said anything about surpassing Kurama's chakra in an instant?  For all we know it could have just reverted KN4 back down a few tails into something more manageable.  For all we know Jiriaya had to place multiple tags on KN4 for the thing to work. 

As for how this technique fairs against Bee? 

Well, Kn4 is merely a result of chakra seeping out due a weakened seal.  Bee can ask for as much chakra as he wants via his perfect jin status.  Nagato ripped his entire V2 cloak off the man could still use BM in the same fight.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 13, 2020)

I imagine that Jiraiya using the seal against V2 bee would go down about as well as Kisame trying to absorb the full cloak with samehada in his unfused state.  

He might remove a few tails but still gets a cavity in his chest.  Unlike, Kisame, he won't heal straight away.


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## Hardcore (May 13, 2020)

>reads a quote from turring saying a sealing tag would beat V2 B

like what the fuck, as if jiraya can even land one on V2 B considering the massive speed difference, and he can do it without getting his head blown off..

and B can literally get as much chakra as he wants from hachibi even if he does so

dude really is desperate to prove a wrong point to everyone

good that no one is buying it

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (May 13, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Wait what?
> I'm saying that if one believes that he didn't have chakra sealing tag, that it would be Jiraiya winning fair and square.
> 
> Personally I believe he had the sealing tag tho.


I’m saying how would him winning with sealing Tag not still be fair and Square


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## Turrin (May 13, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> >reads a quote from turring saying a sealing tag would beat V2 B
> 
> like what the fuck, as if jiraya can even land one on V2 B considering the massive speed difference, and he can do it without getting his head blown off..
> 
> ...


If he can land it on stronger V2 KN4 he can easily land it on V2 B. Speed is irrelevant as he just stops Bs movements with Yomi Numa, we covered this


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## Shazam (May 13, 2020)

Manga: Base Jiraiya >= Kn4 Naruto 

NBD: Base Bee > SM Jiraiya 

Also NBD: Base Bee >>> Kn4 Naruto

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hardcore (May 13, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Manga: Base Jiraiya >= Kn4 Naruto



the manga didn't tell you that

you assumed that


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> SMCOR's best feat is from Naruto, and that's not doing a goddamn thing to Madara's RIBCAGE Susanoo.



Naruto's COR was in base, how do you not know this, chapter's been out for like 8 years 

And SM provides a >10x boost canonically

Also why do you assume v2 Bee is > Madara's ribcage Susano'o in durability



> But yeah sure it one shots someone who dicktanked his own fucking TBB



v2 Bee literally never did this since he can't use that technique 



Troyse22 said:


> Bee legit tanked a direct Chidori to the chest IN BASE and the worst of it was a momentary stun for him which he recovered from in like....1 second
> 
> "A slightly superior comparable technique one shots him in a VASTLY amped state"



>Chidori
>SMCOR
>_slightly superior comparable technique
_
See this is why I said I don't fw most of Troyse's posts

You have Matto/Speedyamell levels of stupidity and then this shit on the other end of the spectrum



> Fucking Sannin camp holy shit



I'm the last person to join the Sannin camp, I'm usually against them in most debates LOL

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shazam (May 13, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> the manga didn't tell you that
> 
> you assumed that



The manga implies that. Saying otherwise is literally you making it up. 

>Base Jiraiya survived 
>Kn4 was subdued 

Whatever way it occurred, this implies base Jiraiya >= Kn4 Naruto, especially when there was no intent to harm or kill.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> None of these guys are comparable to KN3 Naruto in physical stats at all. I don't think Oro was talking about that, he just said Sasuke was stronger overall.



In physical strength, probably just base Bee, not Itachi/Hebi Sasuke, etc.

In speed, BoS Sasuke definitely eclipses KN3 Naruto; hard to buy Oro's statement of vast superiority if he wasn't at least comparable


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## Shazam (May 13, 2020)

Let's just keep making up ideas in our head to manage how Base Jiraiya dealt with Kn4 Naruto while maintaining our already established idea of where Base Jiraiya stands... 

/thread



Its like any off panel feat or mention, people will either take it as it is, or try to justify some means (which don't exist in the manga) to devalue said moment/feat. 

All we need to know is that V2 Bee showed us nothing special, while Kn4 did (tbbs).


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## Serene Grace (May 13, 2020)

COR should kill Bee here, Jiraiya has the means to set something like that up with the support of Ma and Pa. You could argue Bee overcomes him if he starts in Base, but  there isn’t really much he can do if he already drew sage chakra


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## Utopia Realm (May 13, 2020)

Normally don't post here but isn't one of the reasons KN4 was so sluggish moving from the Oro fight was because of the Necklace Naruto had. Did he have the necklace during his time with Jaraiya on, especially their fight?


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 13, 2020)

Shazam said:


> The manga implies that. Saying otherwise is literally you making it up.
> 
> >Base Jiraiya survived
> >Kn4 was subdued
> ...



>Yamato survived unscathed
>Kn4 was subdued

I guess yamato is stronger than KN4... not to mention Jman himself, who almost died in the act.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2020)

Utopia Realm said:


> Normally don't post here but isn't one of the reasons KN4 was so sluggish moving from the Oro fight was because of the Necklace Naruto had. Did he have the necklace during his time with Jaraiya on, especially their fight?



Likely yes


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## Hardcore (May 13, 2020)

Utopia Realm said:


> Normally don't post here but isn't one of the reasons KN4 was so sluggish moving from the Oro fight was because of the Necklace Naruto had. Did he have the necklace during his time with Jaraiya on, especially their fight?



yeah

but my advice is don't even bother

people here just make up shit about what happened off-panel

despite there could have been many stipulations that don't exist in these fights


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## Zero890 (May 13, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> people here just make up shit about what happened off-panel



Like you for example.


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## Hardcore (May 13, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> Like you for example.


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## Shazam (May 13, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> >Yamato survived unscathed
> >Kn4 was subdued
> 
> I guess yamato is stronger than KN4... not to mention Jman himself, who almost died in the act.



Yamato wasn't fighting Naruto. 

And yes, Jiraiya was heavily injured. But he accomplished what needed to be accomplished facing naruto... in whatever type of battle it was.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2020)

We don't actually _know_ for a fact that Hashirama's necklace was keeping KN4 from outright bulldozing Orochimaru, though

It's a popular theory sure and even makes sense since KN6 immediately tried blitzing Pain the moment he shattered the necklace, but fancanon nonetheless

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 13, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Yamato wasn't fighting Naruto.



Yamato restrained the beast with wood style and removed his chakra cloak.  What do you call fighting or _not fighting_?



> And yes, Jiraiya was heavily injured. But he accomplished what needed to be accomplished facing naruto..



Ditto to Yamato minus the injuries. 



> in whatever type of battle it was.



And in a vague battle scenario Yamato also supressed Kn4.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2020)

B Side - By Feats B wins.
Jiriaya side - he has no counter to Yomi Numa Feat wise

B side - Yomi Numa would never beat Killer-B

Jiriaya Side - So now you want to go off portrayal, okay Jiriaya beat a stronger V2 Jin while holding back and Kisame who beat V2 B cuck’d down and was about to loose to Base Jiriaya

B Side - Stop using Portrayal

Jiriaya Side -

Reactions: Like 3


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2020)

Again, KN4 is not > v2 Bee lol


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## Shazam (May 13, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Yamato restrained the beast with wood style and removed his chakra cloak.  What do you call fighting or _not fighting_?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nonsense. Yamato didn't have to fight/subdue Naruto in direct combat. And only managed to do anything because Naruto was wearing the necklace which allowed Yamato to suppress the chakra, his wood binds where getting shattered trying to hold him. Yamato was specifically made for this sort of work. Not comparable at all.


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## Shazam (May 13, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Again, KN4 is not > v2 Bee lol



Prove it. Kn4 showed more fire power with TBBs and showed plenty of durability and destruction capacity. What did V2 Bee show?


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 13, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Nonsense. Yamato didn't have to fight/subdue Naruto in direct combat.



Nothing ever tells us Jiraiya's contest was direct combat. 

For all we know, he could have just been slapped while trying to place a sealing tag on Naruto after the dude transformed..


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Prove it. Kn4 showed more fire power with TBBs and showed plenty of durability and destruction capacity. What did V2 Bee show?



Yeah KN4 has v2 Bee beat purely on firepower

Shame v2 Bee absolutely dunks on him in pure stats and in an actual H2H fight he's smacking the guy upside the head seven ways to Sunday

*See the following:*


ATastyMuffin said:


> v2 Bee is hilariously superior in every way but Bijūdama; this is a guy who in his _base_ was keeping up with Edo Itachi in CQC
> 
> The same Edo Itachi who physically is > Hebi Sasuke, who is > BoS Sasuke who embarrasses 3T Naruto by Oro's own admission
> 
> ...


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## Hardcore (May 13, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Yamato wasn't fighting Naruto.
> 
> And yes, Jiraiya was heavily injured. *But he accomplished what needed to be accomplished facing naruto*... in whatever type of battle it was.



prove it

why couldn't have naruto regained his senses at the last second

that's what happened in the anime headcanon before jiraya take the L and easily could have happened there



Shazam said:


> Prove it. Kn4 showed more fire power with TBBs and showed plenty of durability and destruction capacity. What did V2 Bee show?



>solo'd taka with V1, a weaker form(a 4 member team containing someone stronger than sealed arm orochimaru aka the one Kn4 fought)

>destroyed the forcefield of the strongest alliance barrier technique

>one-shot kisame who only admittedly only was able to take advantage of that because of his counter ability

so yeah, V2 B still has much higher-end feats and portayal

only thing Kn4 got extra is a weak tbb that takes ages to charge


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## t0xeus (May 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I’m saying how would him winning with sealing Tag not still be fair and Square


Because if we count chakra-suppression methods of winning as if playing by the rules, then Yamato is suddenly high kage tier as he can negdiff KN4.

Jiraiya simply won due to prep, not because he's necessarily stronger. Give him a suppression tag that works universally on all characters, and he'd suddenly be placed much higher on most people's tierlists as he just needs one touch to win against anyone.


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## Shazam (May 13, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Nothing ever tells us Jiraiya's contest was direct combat.



It was just the two of them and the fact that Naruto attacked Jiraiya suggests otherwise..obviously. naruto in that state is reckless (shown by attacking Sakura) he is in a rage. Jiraiya was his target.

Stop reaching.


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## Troyse22 (May 13, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Naruto's COR was in base, how do you not know this, chapter's been out for like 8 years



I'm genuinely 99% sure it was in SM.



ATastyMuffin said:


> And SM provides a >10x boost canonically



Its not a 10x boost as every sages feats isn't 10x what they could accomplish in base 



ATastyMuffin said:


> Also why do you assume v2 Bee is > Madara's ribcage Susano'o in durability



Common sense for the most part.

Bee is scalable to super high durability, above his brother certainly by feats.

In base mind you.

Let alone modes like V1 and V2.



ATastyMuffin said:


> >Chidori
> >SMCOR
> >_slightly superior comparable technique_



Yeah, again, Chidori=Base Rasengan, and SM COR isn't some vast multi tiered difference, and certainly not already to cover the ALREADY insane gap between bees durability and Jiraiyas Rasengan




ATastyMuffin said:


> See this is why I said I don't fw most of Troyse's posts



Who the hell are u anyways


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 13, 2020)

Shazam said:


> It was just the two of them and the fact that Naruto attacked Jiraiya suggests otherwise..obviously. naruto in that state is reckless (shown by attacking Sakura) he is in a rage. Jiraiya was his target.



So in other words,  Jiraiya got Sakura'd in attempting to do the same thing Yamato did...?  

I'm sure Kn4 would have attacked yamato too, given the opportunity.  



> Stop reaching.



Reaching is claiming that jiraiya and Kn4 had a massive battle that eventually resulted in Jiraiya overcoming the beast without killing him, rather than just using the tools we know he has, such as the surpassing seal, to subdue Naruto.


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## Zero890 (May 13, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> SM COR isn't some vast multi tiered difference



You have to be joking


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## Shazam (May 13, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> So in other words,  Jiraiya got Sakura'd in attempting to do the same thing Yamato did...?
> 
> I'm sure Kn4 would have attacked yamato too, given the opportunity.
> 
> ...



Jiraiya doesn't have the hokage style wood kakuan. So no. Yamato never faced naruto, was never his target by any means in any panel, was never attacked, was never caught by surprise from the transformation etc

Again, still reaching.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 13, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Jiraiya doesn't have the hokage style wood kakuan. So no.



We know he has tags to suppress the nine tails chakra.

We know that there is nothing in his arsenal beyond that to suppress naruto.  We also know that everything in his base arsenal would get torn apart the moment Kn4 wagged his tail or screamed.  I'd even say most of his SM arsenal is null too.



> Yamato never faced naruto, was never his target by any means in any panel




Yamato did face naruto, but the latter never got a chance to lay a finger on him. 

How do you know that this wasn't the only differential factor between Jman and Yamato's performance rather than some heroic battle that involved Jman's entire ninjutsu arsenal and him physically overcoming the fox, which of course, was never suggested in the manga.  The real reaching here.


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## Troyse22 (May 13, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> You have to be joking



My point is the gap between base bees durability between base and V2 is bigger than the gap between SMCOR and Chidori


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## Serene Grace (May 13, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Yeah, again, Chidori=Base Rasengan, and SM COR isn't some vast multi tiered difference, and certainly not already to cover the ALREADY insane gap between bees durability and Jiraiyas Rasengan


Theres standard rasengan, then theres Odoma Rasengan,  then theres Chou Odoma rasengan, then theres SM COR

How do you rank them?


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## Shazam (May 13, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> We know he has tags to suppress the nine tails chakra.
> 
> We know that there is nothing in his arsenal beyond that to suppress naruto.  We also know that everything in his base arsenal would get torn apart the moment Kn4 wagged his tail or screamed.  I'd even say most of his SM arsenal is null too.
> 
> ...



The reach here is egregious 


The chakra suppression tag was given to kakashi and specifically stated to be used when its just one tail. 
Unless you'd like to believe it would work on Kn8 as well because of the no limit fallacy you are _reaching_ to make. 




You also attempt to assert your own opinion about what jutsu of Jiraiya's would work and which wouldn't without any manga proof. 
I'm not dealing with fancanon


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 13, 2020)

@JuicyG

Jiraiya never did claim the tag would only work on one tail, but rather that Kakashi should stop it before it progresses past that point,

Kakashi used it when Naruto had two tails in the manga anyway, so that interpretation is invalid.


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## Troyse22 (May 13, 2020)

Cherry said:


> Theres standard rasengan, then theres Odoma Rasengan



The gap between which isn't relevant at all.



Cherry said:


> then theres Chou Odoma rasengan, then theres SM COR



Obviously SMCOR>COR>OR>Rasengan

I'm saying the gap between the best and worst isn't bigger than the gap between Base Bees durability and V2.

He already has Chidori+ level durability, and COR is really where he starts getting put in danger of facetanking in base, where actual injuries happen. 

Adding SM on top of that doesnt make it multi tiers stronger, and its not enough to overcome the durability.

Simple


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## Turrin (May 13, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Because if we count chakra-suppression methods of winning as if playing by the rules, then Yamato is suddenly high kage tier as he can negdiff KN4.
> 
> Jiraiya simply won due to prep, not because he's necessarily stronger. Give him a suppression tag that works universally on all characters, and he'd suddenly be placed much higher on most people's tierlists as he just needs one touch to win against anyone.


Yamato needed Naruto to be wearing a necklace and he needed an opening created by Orochimaru. So it’s not the same.

According to you he has such a Tag.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (May 13, 2020)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> @JuicyG
> 
> Jiraiya never did claim the tag would only work on one tail, but rather that Kakashi should stop it before it progresses past that point,
> 
> Kakashi used it when Naruto had two tails in the manga anyway, so that interpretation is invalid.



It suggests it has its limits. If it didn't matter which tail it was, Jiraiya wouldn't have specified which tail to use it on. If you believe otherwise then you must also believe itd work on Kn8, right?


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## Shazam (May 13, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Because if we count chakra-suppression methods of winning as if playing by the rules, then Yamato is suddenly high kage tier as he can negdiff KN4.
> 
> Jiraiya simply won due to prep, not because he's necessarily stronger. Give him a suppression tag that works universally on all characters, and he'd suddenly be placed much higher on most people's tierlists as he just needs one touch to win against anyone.



Yamato literally did not face kn4 in any fighting capacity, and was never targeted.


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## t0xeus (May 13, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Yamato literally did not face kn4 in any fighting capacity, and was never targeted.


KN4 is retarded, he would be able to use Wooden Clone in place for Sakura in that situation he suppressed KN4 in.


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## Shazam (May 13, 2020)

Honestly sm Jiraiya vs bm bee while he'd have to face senjutsu enhanced fcd, ym and frog song which could be prepped via reverse summoning is a better debate here.


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## t0xeus (May 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yamato needed Naruto to be wearing a necklace and he needed an opening created by Orochimaru. So it’s not the same.
> 
> According to you he has such a Tag.


1- Naruto wearing a necklace which coincidentally helps Yamato should be fair and square if we go by your definition of those words.
And Orochimaru was not even anywhere near them when he suppressed KN4, so I don't know what you mean by that.

2- According to the manga he has it, as he is the one who gave it to Kakashi.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- Naruto wearing a necklace which coincidentally helps Yamato should be fair and square if we go by your definition of those words.
> And Orochimaru was not even anywhere near them when he suppressed KN4, so I don't know what you mean by that.
> 
> 2- According to the manga he has it, as he is the one who gave it to Kakashi.


1- How is it fair; KN4 wasn’t already wearing Jiriaya Chakra Sealer 

2- Orochimaru was the one that took all of KN4 attacks in the beginning, distracted KN4. KN4 wasn’t even targeting Yamato, when Yamato used Mokuton on him. He basically got a free shot

3. Well according to the manga he has a Tag that can suppress KN2, when it touches Naruto’s forehead. Your saying this same Tag can suppress KN4, through its shroud.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 13, 2020)

Shazam said:


> It suggests it has its limits



Everything has limits 

But the suggestion here is to stop Naruto before he transforms further.  Which is obvious given that Naruto is more of a danger to himself and everyone else in higher transformed states, not that the seal won't get anything higher than one tail.  

It did, after all, instantly suppress two tails, as per the instruction. 



> If it didn't matter which tail it was, Jiraiya wouldn't have specified which tail to use it on. If you believe otherwise then you must also believe itd work on Kn8, right?



Actually did you know,  it's possible to believe... bear with me here... that the seal works on Kn4 and not on Kn8.  A person can hold both premises as true without hypocrisy. 

I'm merely going off what we know here.  

When we look at the only things that would be effective in Jiriaya's arsenal against the Fox.


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## t0xeus (May 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- How is it fair; KN4 wasn’t already wearing Jiriaya Chakra Sealer
> 
> 2- Orochimaru was the one that took all of KN4 attacks in the beginning, distracted KN4. KN4 wasn’t even targeting Yamato, when Yamato used Mokuton on him. He basically got a free shot
> 
> 3. Well according to the manga he has a Tag that can suppress KN2, when it touches Naruto’s forehead. Your saying this same Tag can suppress KN4, through its shroud.


1- KN4 has a special chakra that reacts specifically to Jiraiya's sealing tag he brought with himself for that specific purpose. If that counts as fair-play, then Yamato abusing the fact that Naruto wears a necklace which reacts to his own power is even more fair imo.

2- KN4 wasn't targeting Yamato because he was tied by his Mokuton.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- KN4 has* a special chakra that reacts specifically to Jiraiya's sealing tag he brought* with himself for that specific purpose. If that counts as fair-play, then Yamato abusing the fact that Naruto wears a necklace which reacts to his own power is even more fair imo.
> 
> 2- KN4 wasn't targeting Yamato because he was tied by his Mokuton.


1- When was the bold stated

2- KN4 didn’t target Yamato prior to Yamato tieing him with his Mokuton, because he was distracted by Orochimaru


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## Isaiah13000 (May 13, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> While I don't fuck with most of Troyse's posts, saying base Jiraiya > v2 Bee is some neg-worthy shit lmao


 How come? What makes V2 B so strong that Jiraiya can't handle him? 


> v2 Bee is hilariously superior in every way but Bijūdama; this is a guy who in his _base_ was keeping up with Edo Itachi in CQC
> 
> The same Edo Itachi who physically is > Hebi Sasuke, who is > BoS Sasuke who embarrasses 3T Naruto by Oro's own admission.


 This is false, Orochimaru said that BoS Sasuke was stronger than KN3 Naruto but didn't say it was because he "embarrasses" him in the physical stats department at all. That is literally made up and there is no evidence that that is what Orochimaru was referring to. So this entire scaling list falls apart there. 


> Let's not even bring into the discussion base Bee's random freak feats of overpowering v1 Raikage's Lariat because the gap becomes even more obvious
> 
> An extra tail does not remotely make up for not only that big-ass gap but *another v2 power-up *stacked on top turning said gap into a mile-wide gulf
> 
> ...


 Yeah... no. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed**Link Removed**Link Removed**Link Removed**Link Removed**Link Removed**Link Removed**Link Removed*


 KN4 Naruto is clearly portrayed as much more powerful than any other V2 Jinchuriki and has hilariously better feats. What are V2 B's feats for that matter that compare to any of this? If base Jiraiya was capable of surviving an exchange with a monster like that and defeating it in base why is it negworthy that base Jiraiya can beat a much weaker V2 jin like B?


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## t0xeus (May 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- When was the bold stated
> 
> 2- KN4 didn’t target Yamato prior to Yamato tieing him with his Mokuton, because he was distracted by Orochimaru


1- Well Jiraiya gives it to Naruto specifically for that purpose. And the tag only seals the Kurama's chakra, while Naruto's base chakra reserves were never shown/stated to be affected by it.

2- It doesn't matter what happened beforehand as Yamato was not involved in the fight at that point of time yet.
Yamato however dealt with KN4 later by himself, and the latter was not distracted by anyone.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 13, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- Well Jiraiya gives it to Naruto specifically for that purpose. And the tag only seals the Kurama's chakra, while Naruto's base chakra reserves were never shown/stated to be affected by it.
> 
> 2- It doesn't matter what happened beforehand as Yamato was not involved in the fight at that point of time yet.
> Yamato however dealt with KN4 later by himself, and the latter was not distracted by anyone.



Potent truths here

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 13, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- Well Jiraiya gives it to Naruto specifically for that purpose. *And the tag only seals the Kurama's chakra*, while Naruto's base chakra reserves were never shown/stated to be affected by it.
> 
> 2- It doesn't matter what happened beforehand as Yamato was not involved in the fight at that point of time yet.
> Yamato however dealt with KN4 later by himself, and the latter was not distracted by anyone.


1- Where was the bold stated. And we didn’t see an visible effect when Chiyo Sealed Sasori Base Chakra ether. 

2- It matters because Yamato got a free hit on KN4.


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## t0xeus (May 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Where was the bold stated. And we didn’t see an visible effect when Chiyo Sealed Sasori Base Chakra ether.
> 
> 2- It matters because Yamato got a free hit on KN4.


1- It's shown, so it doesn't need to be stated. Kakashi touches the seal and it does nothing to him. Jiraiya touches the seal and it does nothing to him. Naruto touches the seal and it only seals away the Kurama chakra pouring out of him, while his base chakra doesn't seem to be affected as he regains consciousness right away.

2- Yamato was able to instantly bind KN4 with Mokuton from ±20m just by clapping his hands.

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*



I fail to see how anything changes with Sakura/Kabuto/Oro out of picture.

KN4 who likes to remain fairly immobile is not doing anything by the time it takes Yamato to make a handclap from 20m.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> I'm genuinely 99% sure it was in SM.



Yeah, because you're a brainless half-wit, what's new





> Its not a 10x boost as every sages feats isn't 10x what they could accomplish in base



Jirōbō stated he gets a 10x boost with CS2 and CS is a gimped version of Sage Mode

Likewise, Jiraiya's SM Gamayu Endan is stated to be _*more*_ than 10x stronger than his base version



> Common sense for the most part.
> 
> Bee is scalable to super high durability, above his brother certainly by feats.
> 
> ...



Yeah, because you're a brainless half-wit, what's new Part 2







> Yeah, again, Chidori=Base Rasengan, and *SM COR isn't some vast multi tiered difference*, and certainly not already to cover the ALREADY insane gap between bees durability and Jiraiyas Rasengan



It literally is, that's the entire point of enlarging these techniques you mongoloid 

Fucking just Ōdama Rasengan required a KN0 boost (which is _massive_) to perform and that was *just basketball-sized* AKA a gimped version of the actual tech which is _this_ big at full power:



Base Rasengan hollows out a water tank, SMCOR is hyped to carve away *mountains*

Base Rasengan sends Deva crashing into a rock, SM Ōdama fires away boss summons into the _stratosphere_


> Who the hell are u anyways



Don't worry, I'm just here to clown you

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (May 13, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- It's shown, so it doesn't need to be stated. Kakashi touches the seal and it does nothing to him. Jiraiya touches the seal and it does nothing to him. Naruto touches the seal and it only seals away the Kurama chakra pouring out of him, while his base chakra doesn't seem to be affected as he regains consciousness right away. The person placing the seal has always designated the target
> 
> 2- Yamato was able to instantly bind KN4 with Mokuton from ±20m just by clapping his hands.
> 
> ...


1- Sakura and Chiyo Puppets touch Chiyo’s Chakra sealer and it does nothing to them as well.

2- What changes is KN4 would be attacking Yamato at the same time Yamato claps his hands together and Mokuton comes out; which could disrupt him.


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## t0xeus (May 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Sakura and Chiyo Puppets touch Chiyo’s Chakra sealer and it does nothing to them as well.
> 
> 2- What changes is KN4 would be attacking Yamato at the same time Yamato claps his hands together and Mokuton comes out; which could disrupt him.


1- It requires activation. It only did something once it grew in size and bit Sasori

2- He'll be helpless as soon as the Mokuton forms around him as per canon.
KN4 started the fight against Oro with chakra arms IIRC, which are definitely not blitzing Yamato before he claps his hands. Plus Yamato can jsut jump back as he is doing it.


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## Shazam (May 13, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> KN4 is retarded, he would be able to use Wooden Clone in place for Sakura in that situation he suppressed KN4 in.



Are you saying Kn4 Naruto loses to Jounins now?


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## t0xeus (May 13, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Are you saying Kn4 Naruto loses to Jounins now?


He lost to Yamato in manga, who is a jonin. So yes, me and Kishi both think that.


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## Kisame (May 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> B Side - By Feats B wins.
> Jiriaya side - he has no counter to Yomi Numa Feat wise
> 
> B side - Yomi Numa would never beat Killer-B
> ...


Exactly, I personally don't believe Yomi Numa one-shots V2 Bee but it's due to portrayal as I don't think it's supposed to be strong enough to do that narratively.

However you can tell that based on feats Bee is CQC oriented and Yomi Numa will make him struggle regardless, and the feats gang's arguments get worse and worse that you can tell they want to say "but Yomi Numa isn't portrayed as this strong jutsu that one-shots people like V2 Bee!" But they just can't outright say it.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- It requires activation. It only did something once it grew in size and bit Sasori
> 
> 2- He'll be helpless as soon as the Mokuton forms around him as per canon.
> KN4 started the fight against Oro with chakra arms IIRC, which are definitely not blitzing Yamato before he claps his hands. Plus Yamato can jsut jump back as he is doing it.


1- So in this case activation would be placing the Tag on the targets For-head.

2- Yes but what I’m saying is if Kn4 throws a shockwave a Yamato at the same time Yamato is using Mokuton; Yamato has to deal with that Shockwave, which will take his focus away from Binding KN4


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> How come? What makes V2 B so strong that Jiraiya can't handle him?



Vastly better stats, too fast for any of Jiraiya's techs to land, etc.



> This is false, Orochimaru said that BoS Sasuke was stronger than KN3 Naruto but didn't say it was because he "embarrasses" him in the physical stats department at all. That is literally made up and there is no evidence that that is what Orochimaru was referring to. So this entire scaling list falls apart there.



BoS Sasuke showed exactly two things

Speed and Chidori Nagashi

And that alone was supposed to suffice Oro's portrayal of him as >> KN3

So yeah I'm not buying that's he's slower than KN3 _at all_ 

Not to mention Sakura pissing her pants at Sasuke's Shunshin yet not showing any visible reaction to KN1 blitzing Oro

Because obviously one was way _way_ faster than the other - hint: it's not the latter



> Yeah... no.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



You should read my other posts, I literally explain why:



> v2 Bee is hilariously superior in every way but Bijūdama; this is a guy who in his _base_ was keeping up with Edo Itachi in CQC
> 
> The same Edo Itachi who physically is > Hebi Sasuke, who is > BoS Sasuke who embarrasses 3T Naruto by Oro's own admission
> 
> ...



Like, there's a legit argument to be made that base Jiraiya can't even react to the guy 

Dude competes with fighters way above Hebi Sasuke's paygrade in _base_, he shit on Taka Sasuke who had back-up with, again, just base

Dude took hits from v1 Raikage and regularly keeps up with KCM Naruto, in _base_

Dude took a Shinra Tensei from Nagato without visible damage in _base
_
Dude took a direct Chidori from Taka Sasuke in _base 
_
I don't buy the "overpowered v1 Raikage in a Lariat duel" feat all that much, but what you can take seriously is him matching his brother's strength when they snapped Kisame's head clean off, and that was *just* with v1

These are all fighters that are indubitably above base Jiraiya, now stack a *v2 powerup* on top and the idea that base Jiraiya competes is neg-worthy shit

Fin


----------



## Shazam (May 13, 2020)

Ok its time to go...

We have folks claiming Kn4 Naruto is below Jounin tier now





t0xeus said:


> He lost to Yamato in manga, who is a jonin. So yes, me and Kishi both think that.


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## t0xeus (May 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- So in this case activation would be placing the Tag on the targets For-head.
> 
> 2- Yes but what I’m saying is if Kn4 throws a shockwave a Yamato at the same time Yamato is using Mokuton; Yamato has to deal with that Shockwave, which will take his focus away from Binding KN4


1- The tag did nothing to Naruto's chakra once the Kurama's chakra was gone so that doesn't work here.

2- That's a fairly specific scenario you're painting there. I'd say the chances of Naruto starting with a chakra scream and then following by specific attacks that will make it impossible for Yamato to clap his hands once are fairly low.
Most of the times, Yamato will clap his hands and finish up the job as per canon.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2020)

Shark said:


> Exactly, I personally don't believe Yomi Numa one-shots V2 Bee but it's due to portrayal as I don't think it's supposed to be strong enough to do that narratively.
> 
> However you can tell that based on feats Bee is CQC oriented and Yomi Numa will make him struggle regardless, and the feats gang's arguments get worse and worse that you can tell they want to say "but Yomi Numa isn't portrayed as this strong jutsu that one-shots people like V2 Bee!" But they just can't outright say it.


Pretty much. 

The bottom line in this thread is that Feats side with Jiraiya; even if you don’t think Yomi Numa GGs by itself it can be used in conjunction with FCD or other Jutsu to give Jiraiya the win; feat wise.

And portrayal wise Base Jiriaya should have a decent shot to win as well.

Realistically I don’t think Base Jiriaya is much stronger then V1/2 B, but he is well equipped to deal with him and is a bit more well rounded due to Bs lack of versatility.

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (May 13, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Ok its time to go...
> 
> We have folks claiming Kn4 Naruto is below Jounin tier now


If you cherry-pick quotes like that, then sure.

What I am saying is that KN4 is both above Jiraiya, and above Yamato, in terms of power, but they can both beat him due to match-up advantage they hold over him.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 13, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Ok its time to go...
> 
> We have folks claiming Kn4 Naruto is below Jounin tier now




Kn4 was beaten by Yamato, yis.  That does not make him weaker than Yamato however.

It's also a reach to assume Jiriaya is stronger than Kn4 in base, if his feat was a yamato esq suppression one.  

It's a case of pointing out the hypocrisy.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- The tag *did nothing to Naruto's chakra once the Kurama's chakra* was gone so that doesn't work here.
> 
> 2- That's a fairly specific scenario you're painting there. I'd say the chances of Naruto starting with a chakra scream and then following by specific attacks that will make it impossible for Yamato to clap his hands once are fairly low.
> Most of the times, Yamato will clap his hands and finish up the job as per canon.


1-  When was the bold stated

2- Thats the exact scenario Orochimaru faced


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## t0xeus (May 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1-  When was the bold stated
> 
> 2- Thats the exact scenario Orochimaru faced


1- We see it. He regains consciousness immediately and doesn't say anything about his chakra levels being lower than usual or anything. 

2- Not really. 
KN4 vs Oro started like this:

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*



Just switch Oro puking out snakes for Yamato clapping his hands.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- We see it. He regains consciousness immediately and doesn't say anything about his chakra levels being lower than usual or anything.
> 
> 2- Not really.
> KN4 vs Oro started like this:
> ...


1)

A- If it was just Kyuubi Chakra why would he loose consciousness at all; every other time the Kyuubi Chakra has been sealed Naruto didn’t loose consciousness.

B- He isn’t fine he’s still slumped on the ground panting heavy:

2) Do I really need to go get the panels of how he chakra roared right before then T0x...


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## t0xeus (May 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1)
> 
> A- If it was just Kyuubi Chakra why would he loose consciousness at all; every other time the Kyuubi Chakra has been sealed Naruto didn’t loose consciousness.
> 
> ...


1- That's my point. Only Kurama chakra was sealed, not Naruto's. 

2- That was a shockwave caused by the transformation from KN3 to KN4. Not a chakra roar.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- That's my point. Only Kurama chakra was sealed, not Naruto's.
> 
> 2- That was a shockwave caused by the transformation from KN3 to KN4. Not a chakra roar.


1- I don’t see where your getting the idea from
that only Kurama chakra was sealed though. Naruto only recovers and showed chakra after the seal was removed 

2- Yes so the first thing was a Shockwave; Yamato would need to deal with that and still be in range to use Mokuton to bind Kn4 before he did something else after the shockwave


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## t0xeus (May 13, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- I don’t see where your getting the idea from
> that only Kurama chakra was sealed though.
> 
> 2- Yes so the first thing was a Shockwave; Yamato would need to deal with that and still be in range to use Mokuton to bind Kn4 before he did something else after the shockwave


1- Because Kurama's chakra is the only chakra it ever reacted to despite 3 different people with body full of chakra touching the seal.

2- No, that was a shockwave from transforming into KN4. If Yamato faces KN4, and not KN3 mid-transformation into KN4, then that doesn't happen.
What happens is the sequence of panels I previously posted that happened instantly once KN4 was on the battlefield.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 13, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Vastly better stats, too fast for any of Jiraiya's techs to land, etc.


 I'll address this below. 


> BoS Sasuke showed exactly two things
> 
> Speed and Chidori Nagashi
> 
> ...


 The bold is baseless, Orochmaru knows BoS Sasuke's whole arsenal. What proof is there that he was simply referring to his speed and Chidori variants? There is none at all. 


> You should read my other posts, I literally explain why:
> 
> 
> 
> Like, there's a legit argument to be made that base Jiraiya can't even react to the guy


 No there isn't, you simply have a false understanding of how speed works in the series. Unless you're dealing with someone who has a *gargantuan* speed advantage over you then reacting to speedsters is possible for non-speedsters. We have examples of characters such as Jugo and Suigetsu literally being stated and shown to be able to keep up with LRCM A4 (not top speed but still), a guy who in that very same fight is stated to be physically faster than someone like Minato. Which shows that even when large speed disparities exist, much slower characters can still react to them. But what's better than this, is that Kisame was able to react to V2 Killer B's speed when he blocked his Lariat with Samehada in close range. Kisame, who is by no means a speedster himself at all and can be kept up with by the likes of Asuma in CQC. So the notion that Jiraiya, base or not, cannot even react to V2 Killer B is completely baseless and nonsensical. 


> Dude competes with fighters way above Hebi Sasuke's paygrade in _base_, he shit on Taka Sasuke who had back-up with, again, just base
> 
> Dude took hits from v1 Raikage and regularly keeps up with KCM Naruto, in _base_
> 
> ...


 Killer B is very durable in base is all you have proven, the speed part of the argument is addressed above. Anyway, despite his durability to blunt force attacks he can still be easily burned like everyone else even with his cloak up. TBM Killer B was burned by Obito's Uchiha Flame Formation and partially transformed B was burned by Itachi's flaming shuriken. So if Jiraiya and Bunta were to use their even hotter oil-enhanced Toad Oil Flame Bullet on V2 Killer B he would be roasted alive and killed.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- Because Kurama's chakra is the only chakra it ever reacted to despite 3 different people with body full of chakra touching the seal.
> 
> 2- No, that was a shockwave from transforming into KN4. If Yamato faces KN4, and not KN3 mid-transformation into KN4, then that doesn't happen.
> What happens is the sequence of panels I previously posted that happened instantly once KN4 was on the battlefield.


1- We already covered this, seals don’t react to chakra of anyone other then when activated on the target. Chiyo didn’t effect anyone till it was activated. Orochimaru 5 Elemental Sealer didn’t effect him ether.

2. Who knows if it would happen or not; Chakra Roar already didn’t work against Orochimaru so who says Kn4 wouldn’t attempt it on Yamato


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## Zero890 (May 13, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Not to mention Sakura pissing her pants at Sasuke's Shunshin yet not showing any visible reaction to KN1 blitzing Oro



Oro is faster than Sakura and he was surprised lol also Orochi was keeping up pretty well against Sasuke that means Sasuke is not>>> 3 tails Naruto.

I doubt Oro were talking about physical stats.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> Oro is faster than Sakura and he was surprised lol



Oro never expressed surprise at 1T Naruto's speed



> also *Orochi was keeping up pretty well against Sasuke* that means Sasuke is not>>> 3 tails Naruto.



Citation needed



> I doubt Oro were talking about physical stats.



As I mentioned to Isaiah

BoS Sasuke showed exactly two things: speed and Nagashi

Naruto had already shown Ōdama at that point so the latter's a wash

In other words, only speed was supposed to elevate Sasuke to this way-above-KN3 level that Oro hypes up


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## Zero890 (May 13, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Oro never expressed surprise at 1T Naruto's speed



He was blitzed, it means he didn't expect that therefore he must have been surprised.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Citation needed




*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 









Oro wasn't blitzed or outspeed at least not before Sasuke used CS2.



ATastyMuffin said:


> As I mentioned to Isaiah
> 
> BoS Sasuke showed exactly two things: speed and Nagashi
> 
> ...



Sasuke is a very versatile and tactical fighter, it's not just speed and Chidori lol. CS2, Kirin, Genjutsu, intelligence, Sharingan precog etc. He is indeed stronger but not because of physical stats.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Oro never expressed surprise at 1T Naruto's speed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kirin was also hinted at


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> He was blitzed, it means he didn't expect that therefore he must have been surprised.



Except we literally don't see him react he just gets hit lmfao and walks it off

In fact if we see Sakura/Sai react to KN1 Naruto's Shunshin your argument would imply that Sakura/Sai's reactions are > Oro's lmfao

Getting hit by KN1/KN3 literally means nothing to him; he regens from the hits neg-diff implying he's not even attempting to dodge



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't understand how these scans are supposed to be pro-Oro

Sasuke dancing around his snakes neg-diff? Nice?



> Sasuke is a very versatile and tactical fighter, it's not just speed and Chidori lol. CS2, Kirin, Genjutsu, intelligence, Sharingan precog etc. He is indeed stronger but not because of physical stats.



Literally shows none of these things BoS except for genjutsu so this entire argument's a wash

So yeah speed and Nagashi, that's all it takes to be above KN3

_Casual_ Sasuke is portrayed as > KN3, that's why Oro makes a point that KN3 _doesn't even come close _to the guy



Turrin said:


> Kirin was also hinted at



Hinted but never shown at all, unfortunately so


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## Turrin (May 13, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Except we literally don't see him react he just gets hit lmfao and walks it off
> 
> In fact if we see Sakura/Sai react to KN1 Naruto's Shunshin your argument would imply that Sakura/Sai's reactions are > Oro's lmfao
> 
> ...


I still think that was considered as reason Sasuke was better


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## Zero890 (May 13, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Except we literally don't see him react he just gets hit lmfao and walks it off
> 
> In fact if we see Sakura/Sai react to KN1 Naruto's Shunshin your argument would imply that Sakura/Sai's reactions are > Oro's lmfao
> 
> Getting hit by KN1/KN3 literally means nothing to him; he regens from the hits neg-diff implying he's not even attempting to dodge



Ok that sounds logic. Still the comparasion with Sakura as basis between Sasuke and Naruto doesn't mean anything because Sakura didn't even see naruto move either, it was rather his destructive power that made her notice. When she noticed it Naruto already had his hand almost stuck in Oro's face.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Don't understand how these scans are supposed to be pre-Oro
> 
> Sasuke dancing around his snakes neg-diff? Nice?



Sasuke wasn't dancing arround, Oro reacted and escaped from his first attack, after that Sasuke needed CS2 to defeat him


*Spoiler*: __ 









So yeah Oro was keeping up with him and having the advantage before CS2 came out.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Literally shows none of these things BoS except for genjutsu so this entire argument's a wash
> 
> So yeah speed and Nagashi
> 
> _Casual_ Sasuke is portrayed as > KN3, that's why Oro makes a point that KN3 _doesn't even come close _to the guy



BoS Sasuke almost showed Kirin against team 7 the rest of his abilities like Sharingan precog or his intelligence are there since always.


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## Ishmael (May 13, 2020)

Braiyan said:


> Not sure why this is 16 pages, Bee wins pretty handily. With full knowledge Bee knows he will have the advantage in close range and with V1/2 he becomes way too fast, strong and tanky for Jiraiya to handle. Jiraiya gets his chest caved in with a Lariat.



good to still see you around


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## JayK (May 13, 2020)

15 pages of people kicking the Jiraiya delusionists shit in

I am proud of you guys

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shazam (May 13, 2020)

23 pages of people kicking Jiraiya haters' shit in. 

I am proud of you guys.


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## Kisame (May 13, 2020)

JayK said:


> 15 pages of people kicking the Jiraiya delusionists shit in





Shazam said:


> 23 pages of people kicking Jiraiya haters' shit in.


Mine is 6 pages


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2020)

Zero890 said:


> Ok that sounds logic. *Still the comparasion with Sakura as basis between Sasuke and Naruto doesn't mean anything because Sakura didn't even see naruto move either*, it was rather his destructive power that made her notice. When she noticed it Naruto already had his hand almost stuck in Oro's face.



Don't think this makes sense either; she clearly reacted to his assault before he'd make contact with Oro's face so logically yes she'd react to his Shunshin just fine

Point remains either way that her reaction to KN1's speed isn't comparable to her utter amazement of Sasuke's blitz

Sasuke remains tiers faster 



> Sasuke wasn't dancing arround, Oro reacted and escaped from his first attack, after that Sasuke needed CS2 to defeat him
> 
> So yeah Oro was keeping up with him and having the advantage before CS2 came out.[



By spitting himself out of the fake body which Sasuke couldn't have anticipated

"Needed" CS2 is a stretch; Sasuke negged his snake attacks and entered CS2 without any effort whatsoever; he could've just as easily fried the attacking snakes with Nagashi but simply chose not to 

Dude was casual and literally chilling about the entire skirmish; only Oro's venom took him off-guard lmao

Also, it's not like I ever said Sasuke would blitz Oro lol



> BoS Sasuke almost showed Kirin against team 7 the rest of his abilities like Sharingan precog or his intelligence are there since always.



Didn't show it though so lol


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I'll address this below.
> The bold is baseless, Orochmaru knows BoS Sasuke's whole arsenal. What proof is there that he was simply referring to his speed and Chidori variants? There is none at all.



It doesn't matter what Oro knows, point being is that BoS Sasuke's portrayal alone was > KN3 with an incredibly minimal portion of his moveset shown

And BoS/Hebi Sasuke is very much a CQC/speed-oriented fighter to begin with; the idea that he isn't at a _minimum_ even with KN3 in speed while being tiers above him is laughable at best 

Literally the first thing he does against Itachi/Deidara is bumrush them with Shunshin



> No there isn't, you simply have a false understanding of how speed works in the series. Unless you're dealing with someone who has a *gargantuan* speed advantage over you then reacting to speedsters is possible for non-speedsters. We have examples of characters such as Jugo and Suigetsu literally being stated and shown to be able to keep up with LRCM A4 (not top speed but still), a guy who in that very same fight is stated to be physically faster than someone like Minato. Which shows that even when large speed disparities exist, much slower characters can still react to them. But what's better than this, is that Kisame was able to react to V2 Killer B's speed when he blocked his Lariat with Samehada in close range. Kisame, who is by no means a speedster himself at all and can be kept up with by the likes of Asuma in CQC. So the notion that Jiraiya, base or not, cannot even react to V2 Killer B is completely baseless and nonsensical.



Definitely not

Kisame barely "reacted" to v2 Bee; he stood still and took the hit while Samehada did the lion's share of the work

And while we're at it Kisame was already duking it out evenly with base Bee in CQC who can pressure Edo Itachi so your Asuma comparison is some hilarious Pt. 1-reliant downplay 

And it makes sense, Kisame himself is also a CQC fighter who can keep up with base Guy in a nerfed form with 30% of his power

To be frank Kisame has _much_ better speed feats than base Jiraiya which is why I find the idea of the latter being blitzed by v2 Bee possible to begin with

Kisame at least had a shield in Samehada

Base Jiraiya has diddly squat

He gets fucking reamed



> Killer B is very durable in base is all you have proven, the speed part of the argument is addressed above. Anyway, despite his durability to blunt force attacks he can still be easily burned like everyone else even with his cloak up. TBM Killer B was burned by Obito's Uchiha Flame Formation and partially transformed B was burned by Itachi's flaming shuriken. *So if Jiraiya and Bunta were to use their even hotter oil-enhanced Toad Oil Flame Bullet on V2 Killer B he would be roasted alive and killed*.



Good look proving that 

It's a technique without a feat to its name and not only was the partial transformation base Bee used to block Itachi's flaming shuriken obviously nowhere comparable to the real thing since it's literally a miniature version

But also Itachi's flaming shuriken takes advantage of piercing power enhanced by flames

Gamayu Endan is literally just fire and all it's ever done is burn a snakeskin

It has zero feats

It's not touching v2 Jins who tank direct Raikiri hits neg-diff and therefore are more durable than the likes of even v1 Raikage

Fucking Madara couldn't burn through v1 shrouds with his own Jūbi-sized Katon; you think _base Jiraiya_ is making any headway against v2?

Fat fucking chance, sport


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## Gulash (May 14, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Kisame barely "reacted" to v2 Bee; he stood still and took the hit while Samehada did the lion's share of the work
> 
> And while we're at it Kisame was already duking it out evenly with base Bee in CQC who can pressure Edo Itachi so your Asuma comparison is some hilarious Pt. 1-reliant downplay
> 
> ...


I have to adress this.
There is style and skill,not just speed.
B pushed Itachi(who only had kunai)with his eight sword style,which was noted to be very unpredictible.
Also whats this bullshit about 30% Kisame.
He had 30 percent of his chakra(aka stamina)
Thats why hes best suited for that tehnique.Cause of his great chakra(stamina)reserves.So it doesnt hinder him much.Do you honestly believe Kisame is 3 times faster,stronger than when he fought Team Gai.
I mean i saw people on this forum often confuse things when term chakra level is used.
There is chakra level or stamina level,used to describe how much stamina someone has left.And then there is charka level,amount of chakra someone can realese.
I mean Kakashi explained it at the beggining of manga,when he was teaching team 7 chakra control.I think it happened then.
There is no way Kisame was at 30% overall power.He was just at 30% of his maximum stamina.


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## Gulash (May 14, 2020)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Definitely not
> 
> Kisame barely "reacted" to v2 Bee; he stood still and took the hit while Samehada did the lion's share of the work
> 
> ...


I mean even Sasuke was able to land a kick on B before he used eight sword style.
Yes you could say he did not start that fight seriously but he stll disarmed Suigetsu and pwned Jugo before that.


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## t0xeus (May 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- We already covered this, seals don’t react to chakra of anyone other then when activated on the target. Chiyo didn’t effect anyone till it was activated. Orochimaru 5 Elemental Sealer didn’t effect him ether.
> 
> 2. Who knows if it would happen or not; Chakra Roar already didn’t work against Orochimaru so who says Kn4 wouldn’t attempt it on Yamato


1- Nothing happened to Naruto even after it was activated.
5 Symbols Seal didn't do anything to Naruto because it was applied on 4 Symbols Seal. It literally targeted Kurama. Same as the paper tag targeted only Kurama.

2- Exactly, we don't know what would've happened.
So in this exact specific scenario, KN4 could win. But run their fight 100 times, and in the extreme majority of the cases, KN4 gets sealed as Yamato just needs to clap his hands once to repeat what he did in canon. Unlike KN4 having to spam shockwaves and long-range attacks just so Yamato doesn't even get one second to clap his hands.


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 14, 2020)

Shazam said:


> 23 pages of people kicking Jiraiya haters' shit in.
> 
> I am proud of you guys.



You didn't respond to my last post in this thread.


----------



## Turrin (May 14, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- Nothing happened to Naruto even after it was activated.
> 5 Symbols Seal didn't do anything to Naruto because it was applied on 4 Symbols Seal. It literally targeted Kurama. Same as the paper tag targeted only Kurama.
> 
> 2- Exactly, we don't know what would've happened.
> So in this exact specific scenario, KN4 could win. But run their fight 100 times, and in the extreme majority of the cases, KN4 gets sealed as Yamato just needs to clap his hands once to repeat what he did in canon. Unlike KN4 having to spam shockwaves and long-range attacks just so Yamato doesn't even get one second to clap his hands.


1- 5 Symbol Seal did effect Naruto chakra. Remember when Jiriaya removes it; Naruto’s able to perfectly use Water Walking when he failed before.

Another example is Explosive Tags. They don’t explode as soon as the user pulls them out or explode when handed to someone else; they have to be activated to work. It’s the same thing here with the chakra sealer, just like for Chiyo’s. 

2- Sure Yamato is able to win a few, and to me I would see that as just as legit as Jiriaya; if Yamato didn’t need the necklace already on Naruto to use his Jutsu.


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## t0xeus (May 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- 5 Symbol Seal did effect Naruto chakra. Remember when Jiriaya removes it; Naruto’s able to perfectly use Water Walking when he failed before.
> 
> Another example is Explosive Tags. They don’t explode as soon as the user pulls them out or explode when handed to someone else; they have to be activated to work. It’s the same thing here with the chakra sealer, just like for Chiyo’s.
> 
> 2- Sure Yamato is able to win a few, and to me I would see that as just as legit as Jiriaya; if Yamato didn’t need the necklace already on Naruto to use his Jutsu.


1- It messed with Naruto's chakra control, it didn't seal Naruto's chakra like it sealed Kurama's chakra however.
Two different things.

2- Explosive tag example doesn't fit here, the suppression tag was already activated, yet didn't affect Naruto's own chakra.

3- He would win majority, not just few, as your only winning scenario has mindless KN4 conveniently spamming shockwaves right off the bat in chain sequence so Yamato doesn't get even one opening to clap his hands which takes almost no time whatsoever.
In majority cases, Yamato wins with no injuries, so he outperforms Jiraiya who almost loses his life trying to suppress KN4.


----------



## Turrin (May 14, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- It messed with Naruto's chakra control, it didn't seal Naruto's chakra like it sealed Kurama's chakra however.
> Two different things.
> 
> 2- Explosive tag example doesn't fit here, the suppression tag was already activated, yet didn't affect Naruto's own chakra.
> ...


1- Yes but it didn’t mess with Orochimaru chakra control, it only activated when placed. Thats my point that seals only work once activated 

2- And I keep asking you how you know that it didn’t effect Naruto’s chakra. All we see is Kakashi place the seal, Naruto feints, then everything is off panel, and when we return Naruto is one he knees panting exhausted, with the seal removed. Where does it say or imply his chakra wasn’t effected?

3- Seems pretty random to me, but as I said the issue is he needs the necklace. Otherwise if he could do it without the necklace then I would put Yamato higher up in my Tier List anyway as easily Low/Mid Kage


----------



## t0xeus (May 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Yes but it didn’t mess with Orochimaru chakra control, it only activated when placed. Thats my point that seals only work once activated
> 
> 2- And I keep asking you how you know that it didn’t effect Naruto’s chakra. All we see is Kakashi place the seal, Naruto feints, then everything is off panel, and when we return Naruto is one he knees panting exhausted, with the seal removed. Where does it say or imply his chakra wasn’t effected?
> 
> 3- Seems pretty random to me, but as I said the issue is he needs the necklace. Otherwise if he could do it without the necklace then I would put Yamato higher up in my Tier List anyway as easily Low/Mid Kage


1- I am not disagreeing about the seal working only when placed. The difference is that the activated paper tag was placed on Naruto's forehead.

2- It sealed KN2 worth of chakra in almost an instant. If it affected Naruto, he would've been dead in few seconds of contact with that paper tag.

3- He is confident in stopping Naruto's Jin transformations even without the Hokage necklace, so it's not even confirmed the necklace is absolutely needed.

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*


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## Turrin (May 14, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- I am not disagreeing about the seal working only when placed. The difference is that *the activated paper tag* was placed on Naruto's forehead.
> 
> 2- It sealed KN2 worth of chakra in almost an instant. If it affected Naruto, he would've been dead in few seconds of contact with that paper tag.
> 
> ...


1- Where was it stated that the Tag was activated before it was placed on Naruto’s forehead 

2- No he wouldn’t have been, Sasori didn’t immediate die when he has his Chakra Sealed 

3- It didn’t seem like Yamato was able to stop him, but ether way that is Yamato from many arcs later, it’s possible that Yamato is stronger then KN4 Arc Yamato and no longer needs to necklace. In which case that Yamato would move up in my Tier list; it’s just hard to say how strong he was by then as the next time he fights he is boosted by Spiral Zetsu


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## t0xeus (May 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Where was it stated that the Tag was activated before it was placed on Naruto’s forehead
> 
> 2- No he wouldn’t have been, Sasori didn’t immediate die when he has his Chakra Sealed
> 
> 3- It didn’t seem like Yamato was able to stop him, but ether way that is Yamato from many arcs later, it’s possible that Yamato is stronger then KN4 Arc Yamato and no longer needs to necklace. In which case that Yamato would move up in my Tier list; it’s just hard to say how strong he was by then as the next time he fights he is boosted by Spiral Zetsu


1- It was activated once it started affecting Kurama's chakra

2- Which means the chakra seal wasn't as strong as the one that sucked KN2 worth of chakra in an instance

3- So what's the evidence for earlier incarnations of Yamato needing the necklace to suppress KN4?


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## Turrin (May 14, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- It was activated once it started affecting Kurama's chakra
> 
> 2- Which means the chakra seal wasn't as strong as the one that sucked KN2 worth of chakra in an instance
> 
> 3- So what's the evidence for earlier incarnations of Yamato needing the necklace to suppress KN4?


1- Okay so then it wasn’t activated prior to being placed on Naruto’s forehead, like I said, as it didn’t start sealing Kurama chakra till then

2- It was strong enough to seal Sasori chakra; and Sasori didn’t die instantly. I mean where are you even getting the idea from that sealing chakra means the person dies. 

3- He said he did, didn’t he?


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## t0xeus (May 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Okay so then it wasn’t activated prior to being placed on Naruto’s forehead, like I said, as it didn’t start sealing Kurama chakra till then
> 
> 2- It was strong enough to seal Sasori chakra; and Sasori didn’t die instantly. I mean where are you even getting the idea from that sealing chakra means the person dies.
> 
> 3- He said he did, didn’t he?


1- Sure, I agree with that. I am saying that it didn't affect Naruto AFTER it was put into activation.

2- The paper tag suppressed KN2 immediately and did nothing to Base Naruto who was able to move and respond just fine.
So the fact that it is especially effective against Kurama's chakra which is what I said at the beginning remains factual.

3- I don't remember him saying that which is why I am asking. Even right after PA Yamato still implies he is able to suppress Kurama by saying he can't stick around Naruto all the time, meaning he CAN do something about it if he stays close to Naruto:

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*


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## Turrin (May 14, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- Sure, I agree with that. I am saying that it didn't affect Naruto AFTER it was put into activation.
> 
> 2- The paper tag suppressed KN2 immediately and did nothing to Base Naruto who was able to move and respond just fine.
> So the fact that it is especially effective against Kurama's chakra which is what I said at the beginning remains factual.
> ...


1- So we agree it was activated when it made contact with Naruto’s forehead? 

2- And I keep asking you what page/panel do you see Base Naruto moving around just fine with the Chakra Sealer still on his forehead. Because I’m every scan I see he simply collapses and we don’t see him again till he is panting on the ground with the chakra seal removed.

Also Sasori was able to talk and move with his chakra sealed as well. 

3- If Yamato thinks he can do it in the PA or Turtle Island Arc he must have gotten stronger; as he states here he can’t do it without the Necklace, and DBIII also says he needs to the Necklace to do so:


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## t0xeus (May 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- So we agree it was activated when it made contact with Naruto’s forehead?
> 
> 2- And I keep asking you what page/panel do you see Base Naruto moving around just fine with the Chakra Sealer still on his forehead. Because I’m every scan I see he simply collapses and we don’t see him again till he is panting on the ground with the chakra seal removed.
> 
> ...


1- yes

2- Fair, Kakashi could have removed it as soon as Kurama's chakra was gone and thus saving Naruto then.  Though still, it doesn't strike me as an universal tool against all chakra. The conversation between Jiraiya and Kakashi at least indicates it is not some regular sealin:

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




3- Well the DB entry has been retconned as Yamato says he can suppress Kurama in Naruto even after the necklace is no more.
The statement in the conversation with Sakura doesn't really say anything specific about KN4. Yamato could very well be talking in general with later stages of Kurama transformations in mind.
I mean we do know that Yamato knows that he can't restrain 9tails for a fact;


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## Turrin (May 14, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- yes
> 
> 2- Fair, Kakashi could have removed it as soon as Kurama's chakra was gone and thus saving Naruto then.  Though still, it doesn't strike me as an universal tool against all chakra. The conversation between Jiraiya and Kakashi at least indicates it is not some regular sealin:
> 
> ...


2- I don’t see anything on that page that indicates it only works on Kyuubi Chakra. Or really anything narratively that would imply that. 

This Chakra Seal was introduced right after Chiyo uses another Chakra Seal which effects humans and it looks extremely similar to this Chakra Seal Tag. And why would it be able to seal KN Chakra but not Human Chakra; which is weaker and less in quantity.

3- It’s not really a Retcon if Yamato just got stronger. I mean that wouldn’t really be surprising ether as Yamato during the wind arc spent days suppressing the Kyuubi chakra so he could have just improved with his Mokuton and Suppression then.


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## t0xeus (May 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 2- I don’t see anything on that page that indicates it only works on Kyuubi Chakra. Or really anything narratively that would imply that.
> 
> This Chakra Seal was introduced right after Chiyo uses another Chakra Seal which effects humans and it looks extremely similar to this Chakra Seal Tag. And why would it be able to seal KN Chakra but not Human Chakra; which is weaker and less in quantity.
> 
> 3- It’s not really a Retcon if Yamato just got stronger. I mean that wouldn’t really be surprising ether as Yamato during the wind arc spent days suppressing the Kyuubi chakra so he could have just improved with his Mokuton and Suppression then.


2- Having a paper tag which basically knocks people out on contact would be extremely convenient to have for Kakashi and Jiraiya in general. It's OP.
So the fact this thing was only ever brought up in the context of suppressing Kurama's chakra kinda implies it doesn't work for anything else

3- It would be a retcon, since the DB entry does not mention one thing about the need for necklace being dependent on user's strength.
That's like DB entry stating that Amaterasu can be casted only with MS, and then Sasuke using it with 3T and someone saying "well, Sasuke got stronger, it's not a retcon"


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## Turrin (May 14, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 2- Having a paper tag which basically knocks people out on contact would be extremely convenient to have for Kakashi and Jiraiya in general. It's OP.
> So the fact this thing was only ever brought up in the context of suppressing Kurama's chakra kinda implies it doesn't work for anything else
> 
> 3- It would be a retcon, since the DB entry does not mention one thing about the need for necklace being dependent on user's strength.
> That's like DB entry stating that Amaterasu can be casted only with MS, and then Sasuke using it with 3T and someone saying "well, Sasuke got stronger, it's not a retcon"


1- Not really. Kakashi can’t make it on his own; only Jiraiya could. Jiriaya only had one real fight in the manga after this against Pain. Where the Chakra Seal would be useless as the other Paths would just remove it; if place on one of them. 

2- Fair but a retcon happening later doesn’t change the fact that at the time we are discussing Yamato needed the necklace. If Kishi later on decides, actually Mokuton is way stronger then that and users don’t need a necklace, well that’s just a power up for Mokuton users that wasn’t present in the arc we are discussing.


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## t0xeus (May 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Not really. Kakashi can’t make it on his own; only Jiraiya could. Jiriaya only had one real fight in the manga after this against Pain. Where the Chakra Seal would be useless as the other Paths would just remove it; if place on one of them.
> 
> 2- Fair but a retcon happening later doesn’t change the fact that at the time we are discussing Yamato needed the necklace. If Kishi later on decides, actually Mokuton is way stronger then that and users don’t need a necklace, well that’s just a power up for Mokuton users that wasn’t present in the arc we are discussing.


1- It KO'd Naruto instantly and he had KN2 worth of chakra. I doubt anyone with regular chakra pool is able to do anything if it touches them.
And if we're dealing with the presumption of Jiraiya using it against KN4, then it did the same thing to Naruto who has KN4 worth of chakra.
So literally Jiraiya would be much higher in power rankings with this in mind, as he can oneshot almost anyone just by slipping piece of paper on them.
He can beat Ei3, V2 Bee and others who are cloaked in chakra effortlessly with this.
Which was obviously not Kishi's intention when he introduced this seal.

2- That's true


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## Turrin (May 14, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> 1- It KO'd Naruto instantly and he had KN2 worth of chakra. I doubt anyone with regular chakra pool is able to do anything if it touches them.
> And if we're dealing with the presumption of Jiraiya using it against KN4, then it did the same thing to Naruto who has KN4 worth of chakra.
> So literally Jiraiya would be much higher in power rankings with this in mind, as he can oneshot almost anyone just by slipping piece of paper on them.
> He can beat Ei3, V2 Bee and others who are cloaked in chakra effortlessly with this.
> ...


Jiriaya would need to get through RCM and V2 Shroud to place the Tag on them. I don’t see Base Jiriaya doing that effortlessly.


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## t0xeus (May 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Jiriaya would need to get through RCM and V2 Shroud to place the Tag on them. I don’t see Base Jiriaya doing that effortlessly.


He just needs to slap the tag on the chakra shroud, no?


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## Turrin (May 14, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> He just needs to slap the tag on the chakra shroud, no?


Didn’t we agree that it only activates when it makes physical contract with the target? I mean it didn’t activate when it touched Naruto KN Shroud but rather his forehead


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## t0xeus (May 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Didn’t we agree that it only activates when it makes physical contract with the target? I mean it didn’t activate when it touched Naruto KN Shroud but rather his forehead


V1 shroud also protects Naruto from attacks, yet Kakashi's hand with the tag went casually through it.

So it seems like slapping it through chakra shroud shouldn't be a problem for whatever reason.


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## Turrin (May 14, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> V1 shroud also protects Naruto from attacks, yet Kakashi's hand with the tag went casually through it.
> 
> So it seems like slapping it through chakra shroud shouldn't be a problem for whatever reason.


Nope, in V1 the Chakra has to be actively expanded out to protect him:
t doesn’t passively protect him like V2 Shroud


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## t0xeus (May 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Nope, in V1 the Chakra has to be actively expanded out to protect him:
> t doesn’t passively protect him like V2 Shroud


We see regular V1 shroud protecting SA from Tenpenchi and other AOE attacks just fine during WA without reshaping itself significantly.


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## Turrin (May 14, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> We see regular V1 shroud protecting SA from Tenpenchi and other AOE attacks just fine during WA without reshaping itself significantly.


Yeah but again that was Naruto actively having the chakra protect them; it wasn’t passive. 

Anyway even if you think the Seal Tag just bypasses these shrouded, I don’t see that as something beyond Jiriaya capabilities; I mean he easily sealed Amaterasu without even making contact with it. So why would sealing a Chaka Shroud be beyond Jiriaya.

It’s still going to be as tough to land the seal on someone as it is to Land Rasengan.


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