# The obito cqc competition (who can perform as well as gai did)



## Icegaze (Mar 28, 2015)

location: same as gai vs obito
distance: same
knowledge: same that gai had 

out of these people who can perform as well as gai did against obito 

1) killer bee
2) hiashi
3) Sm naruto
4) chouji
5) kakashi
6) hebi sasuke
7) itachi



restrictions: 
No susanoo for itachi, no kamui for kakashi, no long range jutsu for anyone. unless said jutsu can be used in close range. 

The idea is to prevent obito from wrapping them which he will attempt to do. This isnt a case of can they beat obito 

Now i know most would be like hiashi doesnt stand a chance but he got 2 things goign for him 
1) body blow which makes obito trying to attack from behind a death sentence 
2) 1

hiashi without spinning should be able to prevent obito from grabbing him by simply releasing chakra 
Also do re read the chapter with neji. sneaking up on hiashi would be a nightmare.

I think they can all do as well. chouji being the easiest for obito the rest should avoid obito wrapping them with the same ease gai had. some might even force obito to reconsider his options

I am particularly interested in how people see itachi faring, considering his cloning abilities and hand seal speed added to the fact that he only needs to last as long as gai did, ill be shocked if people think he lasts less 

Lastly if gai where to go 6th or 7th gate could he have beat obito?


----------



## Deer Lord (Mar 28, 2015)

Bee and maybe sage naruto.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 28, 2015)

explain why hiashi cant 
cqc wise are you saying base gai is superior to hiashi who can use all his abilities. that would be pushing it to the max !!! common!!! you cant be serious
Its not like hiashi needs to be very fast to land a hit or hit him very hard either. the guy can defend his back without any movement and can have obito mistime his phase in and phase out by sending very close range air palms. dont you think that is possible with  knowledge?

itachi: clones that even SM kabuto cant keep track off which can explode in obito face surely shoudl allow him to last as long as gai. 

as to why u believe bee and naruto would seems obvious

I am surprised you dont think kakashi can either. They all only need to last as long as gai did while engaging obito its really not that hard

unlike gai they can do more than jutsu taijutsu.


----------



## Deer Lord (Mar 28, 2015)

Kakashi was already stomped by obito in the manga, he needed naruto to save his ass.

I'm not going to argue about the rest, I acknowledge that the likes of itachi,hihashi and kakashi are in the same ballpark of base gai in cqc.
However none of them have a fighting style to specifically counter sharingan as gai does, so I personally don't beleive they'd do as good.

Bee has already stomped an ms user while being not serious so it's obvious
naruto isn't very skilled in taijutsu but he has divine intervention sage sense to help him out.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 28, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Kakashi was already stomped by obito in the manga, he needed naruto to save his ass.
> 
> I'm not going to argue about the rest, I acknowledge that the likes of itachi,hihashi and kakashi are in the same ballpark of base gai in cqc.
> However none of them have a fighting style to specifically counter sharingan as gai does, so I personally don't beleive they'd do as good.
> ...



sorry when was kakashi stomped by obito?? i seriously cannot remember that. is it fan fic?

not only sage sensing he also can use frog katas which obito cant see. hard to phase through what you cant see. 

Its odd you say none have a style to fight sharingan despite there being 3 dojutsu users. . 

its like you forgetting that cqc wise hiashi would be better than gai and dojutsu wise well he would be. he got eyes gai doesnt. 

none of these people need to be as skilled as gai in taijutsu to last as long since all of them have alternatives to compensate. this allows them to do better. 

eg: hiashi doesnt need to be as fast as gai to do well in cqc. he can release chakra to alter the momentum of obito hand coming towards him. or an obito coming from behind could suffer full body blow. 

*This isnt a thread saying they are all as skilled as gai in taijutsu. none of them are. however none of them need to be to last as long*


----------



## Deer Lord (Mar 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sorry when was kakashi stomped by obito?? i seriously cannot remember that. is it fan fic?


Ummm, when they fough.

Obito took on nardo, kakashi and gai combined.
After his mask got broken he faced kakashi alone, and warped him. twice.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 28, 2015)

first time kakashi wasnt even fighting back 
second time kurama threw kakasih at obito

hows that obito takign kakashi one on one with the intention to fight back 

great examples there


----------



## Deer Lord (Mar 28, 2015)

1
1

1
1

though kakashi was kinda worn out (even though obito was fighting alot more than he did...)
in their kamui land fight they were close in skill, but obito didn't have phasing there
with phasing he'd demolish kakashi in cqc.


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 28, 2015)

Even Minato (no Hiraishin) failed to do as well as Gai did in more favorable conditions (on feet while Gai was mid-air).

Killer Bee is the only one i might see replicating thanks to his sword styles. SM Naruto is a possibility but i don't see him having striking speed and taijutsu skill good enough to avoid and do it as well as Gai.

The others are outright warped.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 28, 2015)

@lost self so you are saying the others in cqc cant last whats a few panels?
seriously they only have to last as long as gai 

i dont get both of u. naruto creates 20 clones right there he lasts longer if they all engage in cqc 

maybe i explained things badly or something


----------



## LostSelf (Mar 28, 2015)

If we count all of their ninjutsu, them almost all of them will last longer. I thought this was about a CqC confrontation with Obito. Naruto used one clone in KCM and still he couldn't last what Gai lasted. Numbers is not what it matters when it comes to Obito because he doesn't need to dodge. However, i suppose Naruto can pull it off if he attacks with good timing.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 28, 2015)

@lost self 
not all their ninjtusu but they are restricted to taijutsu. i never said that hence cqc 
itachi and all clone users can engage people in cqc cant they
itachi however cannot use genjutsu, susanoo etc 

Why do you think hiashi wont last as long? when he can full body blow to defend his back and release chakra to alter obito momentum
also wont close range air palm throw obito off his phase in and out game?

This is a match to see how long they will last engaging obito in cqc with their cqc skills not just taijutsu skills


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Mar 28, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Even Minato (no Hiraishin) failed to do as well as Gai did in more favorable conditions (on feet while Gai was mid-air).
> 
> Killer Bee is the only one i might see replicating thanks to his sword styles. SM Naruto is a possibility but i don't see him having striking speed and taijutsu skill good enough to avoid and do it as well as Gai.
> 
> The others are outright warped.



Sage Naruto is perfect for this, I feel. His invisible natural-energy punches deflect every attempt Obito does to warp him, and Obito can't possibly foresee them. In most cases, Naruto whiffs a punch right through the Uchiha, Obito swoops in for a quick victory, only to be launched twenty meters back.

And if Obito doesn't recover from the punch quickly enough, Naruto could easily capitalize and finish him with his Raikage-level physical strength.


----------



## SSMG (Mar 28, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Bee and maybe sage naruto.



This sounds about right.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 28, 2015)

I have doubts whether or not Hiashi can handle Obito.

 We've seen Obito nearly blitz KCM Naruto from underground with his Kamui which indicates that Obito can do the same thing against Hiashi if he ever attempts to use Kaiten. Hiashi is still undoubtedly a goood candidate due to being able to use Chakra all throughout his body to deflect Obito's blows, but one also has to consider Obito's Stakes which can be enough to penetrate Hiashi's Kaiten if he warps them fast enough in order to do that.

 SM Naruto is a great candidate. Despite being slower than KCM Naruto, he still has Frog Katas that can likely catch Obito off-guard and allow Naruto to counterattack Obito from a farther range as well as enhanced sensing capabilities in comparison to KCM Naruto which can allow him to sense Obito's Chakra build up within his eye before he attempts to absorb him.

 Killer Bee could also potentially be a good candidate due to his unorthodox fighting style which allowed him to fight against Itachi who can react to and clash with SM Kabuto. Even Killer Bee can react to V1 Raikage in Base, so if need be, he can use V1 and V2 Modes in order to properly evade Obito's Kamui.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 28, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I have doubts whether or not Hiashi can handle Obito.



ok. talk to me 



> We've seen Obito nearly blitz KCM Naruto from underground with his Kamui which indicates that Obito can do the same thing against Hiashi if he ever attempts to use Kaiten. Hiashi is still undoubtedly a goood candidate due to being able to use Chakra all throughout his body to deflect Obito's blows, but one also has to consider Obito's Stakes which can be enough to penetrate Hiashi's Kaiten if he warps them fast enough in order to do that.



obito can appear underground true. why would hiashi attempt to use kaiten to reply an enemy who can phase ? that wouldnt work he would know that. 
no stakes allowed for obito. obito must perfom only in cqc. grab hiashi and kamui wrap him. 

which is hard to do with hiashi being able to release chakra from any part of his body to push obito away 




> SM Naruto is a great candidate. Despite being slower than KCM Naruto, he still has Frog Katas that can likely catch Obito off-guard and allow Naruto to counterattack Obito from a farther range as well as enhanced sensing capabilities in comparison to KCM Naruto which can allow him to sense Obito's Chakra build up within his eye before he attempts to absorb him.



true. or naruto can use use clones. which is a very easy counter to Kamui wrap 



> Killer Bee could also potentially be a good candidate due to his unorthodox fighting style which allowed him to fight against Itachi who can react to and clash with SM Kabuto. Even Killer Bee can react to V1 Raikage in Base, so if need be, he can use V1 and V2 Modes in order to properly evade Obito's Kamui.



killer bee base speed is a least as good as gai. and his style is less predictable. he easily performs as well as gai. 

he wouldnt need V1 or 2 to perform as well as gai did 

I only made this thread because it seems the gai feat is talked about alot as if its impossible to prevent obito from kamui wrapping for a little while .i believe most low to high kage level with the right skill easily can stop obito from wrapping them as long as gai did


----------



## SSMG (Mar 28, 2015)

I see two major problems for hiashi releasing chakra to counter obitos kamui touch.

If he does it after obito has made contact the time he releases the chakra to resist the touch he's already been warped to kamuiland.

If he does it too early as obito is approaching obito will phase through it and grab him once its been released.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 28, 2015)

fair point SSMG
however dont forget hiashi is capable of release chakra within a 50m radius to detect anything within said radius. if obito is phased in kamui land hiashi would know because the chakra barrier he put up wont detect obito. when obito phases in hiashi would know as well 

this allows hiashi to release enough chakra to alter obito momentum as shown by neji as a genin altering projectiles with just chakra. 

hiashi will then also be able to time close range air palms to throw obito off his timing. its basically a jukken strike till he sends it flying at obito

the combination of all that should be able to ensure hiashi lasts as long as gai did with his nunchucks wouldnt you say


----------



## Alucardemi (Mar 28, 2015)

You mean Rinnegan Obito? I say they all get warped eventually. Some last more than others, but all warped eventually.

The ones I see lasting are Killer Bee and Itachi. Killer Bee because of swords-dance, and Itachi due to Mangekyou Sharingan precognition.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 28, 2015)

yes they will all get wrapped eventually hence the post clearly asking can they last as long as gai not can they beat obito in a fight. 

if that was that kind of thread, hiashi and chouji wouldnt be on it


----------



## SSMG (Mar 28, 2015)

Well those are also some good points Ice... Basically to me it depends then on how fast is the activation of hiashis chakra release/ air palms is compared to obitos kamui touch. Obito should be fast enough to close the distance even with the barrier since he was able to pressure kcm naruto in cqc. So it depends on if hiashi can get his jutsus off before he's warped.

I'm not sure if there's much to compare them to each other tho.

But for if he can last as long as guy im not sure. He may... If the chakra release is faster than obitos kamui touch rush then yeah I'd say he can last as long. But if its slower obito will phase though hiashs assults and warp him before he can execute the chakra release.


----------



## Kai (Mar 28, 2015)

Gai survived an exchange with Obito. That's all the manga was willing to show. Kishimoto didn't put in all that opposition for that fight in there for no reason.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Sage Naruto is perfect for this, I feel. His invisible natural-energy punches deflect every attempt Obito does to warp him, and Obito can't possibly foresee them. In most cases, Naruto whiffs a punch right through the Uchiha, Obito swoops in for a quick victory, only to be launched twenty meters back.
> 
> And if Obito doesn't recover from the punch quickly enough, Naruto could easily capitalize and finish him with his Raikage-level physical strength.


Sage Naruto is worse for this.

KCM Naruto couldn't do anything against Obito, despite knowing the strategy against him.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Mar 28, 2015)

Kai said:


> Sage Naruto is worse for this.
> 
> KCM Naruto couldn't do anything against Obito, despite knowing the strategy against him.



A weakened Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto unable to utilize full-power Body Flickers superior to that of Ay's maximum speed, with considerably inferior strength, is naturally going to be less lethal in close-quarters than a fighter on par with the Raikage in brute force utilizing ghost-punches that no Bloodline Limit is capable of seeing through.

Nothing Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto has is more effective, taijutsu-wise, than Frog Kata. Tell me how Obito can possibly do anything against it.


----------



## SSMG (Mar 28, 2015)

What? Kcm Naruto was using his full speed against obito and was still getting punked by obito in cqc.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Mar 28, 2015)

SSMG said:


> What? Kcm Naruto was using his full speed against obito and was still getting punked by obito in cqc.



Burden of proof is on you to prove he was using anything remotely resembling his true speed.

Because if so, Base Guy exceeds or matches Ay's top Body Flicker considering him and Naruto reached Obito at essentially the same time. 

Is that a claim you seriously want to be backing?


----------



## Empathy (Mar 28, 2015)

KCM Naruto isn't exceptionally fast when he isn't trying his hardest _shunshin_ that equals _Hirashin_ in speed. His average _shunshins_ were repeatedly knocked back by version one A. Itachi could spar with him pretty comfortably. Muu could avoid an ambush from him. Kimimaro evaded his _Rasenshuriken_; Black Zetsu countered it as well. Sometimes when he even uses his faster speeds he crashes into stuff and hurts himself. KCM Naruto's average speed being roughly around 5 tier base Gai's isn't that inconsistent. Obito's movement speed (not counting _Kamui_) isn't extraordinary either; I doubt it's far outside that 4.5-5 tier range.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 28, 2015)

SSMG said:


> What? Kcm Naruto was using his full speed against obito and was still getting punked by obito in cqc.



 He wasn't using his full speed. What Gai displayed against Obito was superior reflexes and CQC, not actual movement speed. 

 Base Gai cannot be faster than V2 Ei.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 28, 2015)

this is the part where SSMG
says base gai is faster than V2 EI despite kishi the author blatantly disagreeing


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Mar 28, 2015)

Empathy said:


> KCM Naruto isn't exceptionally fast when he isn't trying his hardest _shunshin_ that equals _Hirashin_ in speed. His average _shunshins_ were repeatedly knocked back by version one A. Itachi could spar with him pretty comfortably. Muu could avoid an ambush from him. Kimimaro evaded his _Rasenshuriken_; Black Zetsu countered it as well. Sometimes when he even uses his faster speeds he crashes into stuff and hurts himself. KCM Naruto's average speed being roughly around 5 tier base Gai's isn't that inconsistent. Obito's movement speed (not counting _Kamui_) isn't extraordinary either; I doubt it's far outside that 4.5-5 tier range.



Exactly. Sage Naruto casually keeping up with the Third places him on the *same level* of Nine-Tails Chakra Mode's regular speed level. Difference is, the former's attacks cannot be evaded. The only thing Obito is accomplishing against a Frog Kata user as adept as Naruto is getting smacked around the countryside. Sensing nullifies any ambush via Kamui.

There's a reason why Frog Kata is labelled a flawless taijutsu style in Databook IV. It truly has no weaknesses; it's essentially Limbo: Border Jail but at shorter-range. Weapons don't make any difference - you're getting disarmed quickly.


----------



## SSMG (Mar 28, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Burden of proof is on you to prove he was using anything remotely resembling his true speed.
> 
> Because if so, Base Guy exceeds or matches Ay's top Body Flicker considering him and Naruto reached Obito at essentially the same time.
> 
> Is that a claim you seriously want to be backing?




Naruto was using his full speed due to the fact that even when obito was closing the distance and was about to kamui warp naruto away he didn't simply just up his speed to his shunshin speed and zipp on off from danger like he did against raikage. Instead he needed to be saved from guy.

And guy was faster than this speed since he got to where naruto was so the same distance in less time so he's faster.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Mar 28, 2015)

SSMG said:


> Naruto was using his full speed due to the fact that even when obito was closing the distance and was about to kamui warp naruto away he didn't simply just up his speed to his shunshin speed and zipp on off from danger like he did against raikage. Instead he needed to be saved from guy.



Or maybe because he simply didn't have the chakra reserves for it. 

You know, that *would* be the logical reason considering just prior he finished off the battle against five Tailed Beasts and had to resort to fighting in base against Gedo Mazo. But who knows, given whatever fucked up perspective you view this manga in, outlandish claims are all but expected.

I mean, for Christ's sake, saying Naruto was using his full speed against Obito and 'needed to be saved from guy' is tantamount to saying fucking Obito is superior to Ay's best Body Flicker. 

You know, the guy, who was outright defeated by *Kakashi* in close-quarters combat. 



> And guy was faster than this speed since he got to where naruto was so the same distance in less time so he's faster.



L-O-L

You heard it here first, folks.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

@TastyMuffin you are wasting your time arguing with him 

what i dont get is why anyone believes u need to be exceptionally fast to defend against obito. obito himself isnt all that fast. he got regular high level ninja speed. and his taijutsu skill is shabby

all u have to do is defend the grab which gai did. everyone here bar chouji will easily last as long

actually maybe even chouji by using multi size


----------



## Garcher (Mar 29, 2015)

lol Itachi would stomp Obito. Obito admitted it himself


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

not in this set up 
actually not in any set up 

but yes itachi easily last as long as gai did. no effort i must add


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 29, 2015)

SSMG said:


> Naruto was using his full speed due to the fact that even when obito was closing the distance and was about to kamui warp naruto away he didn't simply just up his speed to his shunshin speed and zipp on off from danger like he did against raikage. Instead he needed to be saved from guy.
> 
> And guy was faster than this speed since he got to where naruto was so the same distance in less time so he's faster.



 Shunshin requires building up chakra within your feet to amplify your speed and that requires high enough reflexes in order to do so which Naruto did not have considering he was constantly being bashed around by Obito.


----------



## SSMG (Mar 29, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Or maybe because he simply didn't have the chakra reserves for it.
> 
> You know, that *would* be the logical reason considering just prior he finished off the battle against five Tailed Beasts and had to resort to fighting in base against Gedo Mazo. But who knows, given whatever fucked up perspective you view this manga in, outlandish claims are all but expected.
> 
> ...




There's nothing in the manga that states hints to or implies naruto was low on chakra at this point. Considering he kept fighting and using jutsus in kcm mode after this fact suggests the opposite.
Naruto fighting in base prior to this point doesn't mean much when we know kurama gathers chakra for naruto when nnaruto is in base. So if anything that just shows how since naruto was back to using kcm chakra that kurama had gathered enough chakra for him to use the kcm form again... 

The logical reasoning for someone who gets chakra from a bijuu is to not assume they are tired and out of chakra unless its implied in some way which it wasn't.  

Obito would therefore get scaled up to past eis level. 

@narutox28 
Yeah so then obito gets scaled up past ei even according to your argument. 

Ei was a few inches away from naruto and naruto could amp up his chakra to use a body flicker even with the speedster that close to him. If he wasn't able to do so because he's constantly under pressure from obito then obito must be faster than whatever eis speed he used on naruto that naruto could evade under pressure.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

this BS scaling up that goes against what kishi the author says really does me in 
Obito in no way shape or form is faster than Ei 
Like at all 

Don't u think it ovicious that if obito was moving at shocking speed naruto who just outpaced the fastest guy would point out that obito is actually really fast ? 

Kishi has never shown a ninja with unusual speed and not blatantly pointed it out to the readers
Kishi is very obvious with such 

Obito saying Kakashi is fast , lee speed , sasuke speed Everytime u got a fast opponent kishi can't help but mention it 
If he don't mention it the person speed got nothing unusual to it and is very much regular


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 29, 2015)

SSMG said:


> @narutox28
> Yeah so then obito gets scaled up past ei even according to your argument.
> 
> Ei was a few inches away from naruto and naruto could amp up his chakra to use a body flicker even with the speedster that close to him. If he wasn't able to do so because he's constantly under pressure from obito then obito must be faster than whatever eis speed he used on naruto that naruto could evade under pressure.



 No, Obito isn't. You have to consider the fact that KCM Naruto was attempting to counter Obito's Kamui with clones to initiate a potential counterattack. The fact that KCM Naruto was on the offensive as opposed to being on the defensive like he was against V2 Ei means that KCM Naruto didn't have the reflexes to use Shunshin, especially when Obito was engaged in CQC with KCM Naruto.

 We've seen KCM Naruto react to V1 Ei in CQC and he couldn't even perform a jutsu in time before V1 struck him (which Bee had to step in to protect him).


----------



## SSMG (Mar 29, 2015)

@ice no kishi doesn't need to spell it out for us every single time because he also draws the actions that occur which also reflect what he wants to happen in the manga.

Like against the v2 Edo mins.. They were hitting naruto left and right clearly they are fast because you need to be fast in order to do this. Yet no mention from naruto was made about their speed. Same thing in this instance.

@narutox yeah naruto did get hit by ei when ei was in v1 but that was a naruto who was simply trying to run past ei. Once naruto got serious he could and did react against v2 ei. And naruto was fighting against the main bad guy of the war at this point in which he is fighting seriously so the reaction feat of him reacting to v2 ei is what should be used.


And being on the offensive or defensive has nothing to do with it. He still couldn't react and that's all that needs to be said. Because at the end of the day reactions are reactions they wont change for offense and defense.

And even then he was technically now on the defensive seeing as obito shot down his offensive attack attempt with the clone and forced naruto to use a chakra arm to... Defend himself. But that didn't work and he still couldn't get out of the way of obitos offensive attempt like he did to ei.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

Kishi spells it out for us everytime 
I don't get how u don't get that 
Not spelt out not true
Very simple 
The rest is fan bias and assumption 

Why on earth do u think he makes the effort to point things out that add nothing to the story if not to tell readers 
This is guy is faster than most or this guy is physically stronger than most

Everytime it's spelt out so that even slow readers can get it

The jins were fast but nothing at all surprising about their speed . Hitting naruto when he isn't using shunshin isn't anytbinf impressive 
Like at all 

What Kishi wanted readers to know was naruto without control of kurama and bee weren't enough to take on 6 jin's 
Which he made a point of havin obito clearly state it and hachibi confirm that 6 vs 2 was too much 

So like I said he always very painfully states what he wants readers to get from his panels 
The rest is U assuming . 

Naruto didn't try to avoid nibi . Nibi hitting narjto doesn't sufdenly make it faster than Ei . That's an extremely dumb way to look at things and specifically goes against what the author wants us to get from it


----------



## Ashi (Mar 29, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> A weakened Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto unable to utilize full-power Body Flickers superior to that of Ay's maximum speed, with considerably inferior strength, is naturally going to be less lethal in close-quarters than a fighter on par with the Raikage in brute force utilizing ghost-punches that no Bloodline Limit is capable of seeing through.
> 
> Nothing Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto has is more effective, taijutsu-wise, than Frog Kata. Tell me how Obito can possibly do anything against it.



Who says he was weakened


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

I don't tbink he was 
That's an excuse
Howveer if we are going to claim obito is fast because he kept up then all 6 jins are fast itachi is fast 

And they are all faster than Ei which i hope everyone knows that's stupid


----------



## Ashi (Mar 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I don't tbink he was
> That's an excuse
> Howveer if we are going to claim obito is fast because he kept up then all 6 jins are fast itachi is fast
> 
> And they are all faster than Ei which i hope everyone knows that's stupid



Well if he kept up with 3 fast characters that DOES mean he's fast, at least fast enough to do so


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

Obito didn't keep up
He phased through their attack 
It means he got good reactjons which have nothing to do with his physical speed 

Anyone with his jutsu with decent reactions can phase through and keep attacking 


He kept up with naruto jumping backwards 
Base Gai 
And Kakashi actually never went for him 

I don't see how that's inpressive


----------



## SSMG (Mar 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Kishi spells it out for us everytime
> I don't get how u don't get that
> Not spelt out not true
> Very simple
> ...



If you need everything spelt out for you that's fine and dandy. I go with feats and use statements to support what happened with the actions that occurred. The old saying actions speak louder than words holds true here. But if you're so simple minded that you can only read the speech bubbles and can't tell what actions occurred that's your fault not mine.

Also about your example of killerbee/ hachibi saying they can't handle the 6 on 2 that was only after he found out the mins can go full bijuu mode and doesn't relate to your point of kishi having to spell out every time someone is faster than someone else(which he doesn't need to spell it out for you BTW).

You saying hitting naruto when he's not using shunshin shows that you just don't get it though. Naruto was able to react and then use a shunshin to eis max speed. Naruto getting tagged over and over again by the jins shows us that either he can't react at all to there speed(which makes them faster than ei) or he can react but can't use a shunshin in time after he's reacted and before they tag him( which also makes them faster than eis max speed)


You're accusations of this being assuming is simply laughable.  Because its as you said he always states it in the panels.. Which him drawing a feat that exceeds a previous feat is kishi stating it within the panels. So you agree with mebut you don't even realize youre doing it because you think kishi can only tell us stuff about the manga through the text bubbles whereas the best way to do so is to use the statements in conjecture with the actions that occur.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

And am happy for you 
Your feats keep U warm at night 
Clap for yourself 
I go with u know what Kishi is trying to portray 
Remember that guy? U know the relevant person


----------



## SSMG (Mar 29, 2015)

Concessions accepted.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

you are right 
i accept that based on your logic V1 Ei is faster than V2 Ei
since u know V1 Ei could land hits and naruto couldnt shunshin to avoid it 
but V2 Ei couldnt 

so u going to say naruto didnt use max shunshin then right? so why assume he tried to and failed vs the jin's

lets break down ur massively unintelligent logic


----------



## SSMG (Mar 29, 2015)

I've already explained why there's a difference between naruto getting hit by v1 ei and dodging v2 ei.  And why we should ise his feat of him dodging v2 ei as the basis for his war feats.

So concession accepted once again.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 29, 2015)

SSMG said:


> I've already explained why there's a difference between naruto getting hit by v1 ei and dodging v2 ei.  And why we should ise his feat of him dodging v2 ei as the basis for his war feats.



 The moments that KCM Naruto did perceive V1 Ei's movements showed that KCM Naruto was unable to Shunshin away or even use a hand sign, all of which were at close range which indicates it isn't logical to place Obito on V2 Ei's speed considering KCM Naruto relied on CQC in order to counter Obito's Kamui. Considering KCM Naruto was also in mid-air for the majority of the time against Obito as well as the fact that he constantly attempted to counter Obito's Kamui left KCM Naruto susceptible to attacks considering counterattacking will logically always leave an opening.

 But still, the fact that KCM Naruto was in mid-air the whole time suggests he couldn't use Shunshin whenever he pleased.

 Him using Shunshin to dodge V2 Ei had more to do with KCM Naruto running away from V2 Ei as opposed to being on the offensive and charging at his opponent like he did with Obito. KCM Naruto running away from V2 Ei left him with more time to perceive Ei's movement and also build up chakra in his feet in order to use Shunshin. Whenever KCM Naruto did attempt an offensive maneuver, it was easily countered by V1 Ei.

 So no concessions are needed.


----------



## SSMG (Mar 29, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> The moments that KCM Naruto did perceive V1 Ei's movements showed that KCM Naruto was unable to Shunshin away or even use a hand sign, all of which were at close range which indicates it isn't logical to place Obito on V2 Ei's speed considering KCM Naruto relied on CQC in order to counter Obito's Kamui. Considering KCM Naruto was also in mid-air for the majority of the time against Obito as well as the fact that he constantly attempted to counter Obito's Kamui left KCM Naruto susceptible to attacks considering counterattacking will logically always leave an opening.
> 
> But still, the fact that KCM Naruto was in mid-air the whole time suggests he couldn't use Shunshin whenever he pleased.
> 
> ...



Did you even read my post that was directed towards you? You're repeating things that have already been refuted...

Naruto wasn't serious to v1 ei so you should not use those feats as an example . he was serious however against both obito and v2 ei and that's why the comparison can be made. And him being in cqc against obito doesn't matter as he was also in a cqc situation against raikage and he could react and then use a shunshin when ei was inches away from his face. There's literally no difference in attempt.

The time naruto was airborne and keeping up with obito is canceled out by the fact that obito phased upwards through the ground so that is essentially an already airborne obito at that point. So naruto keeping up with him there does not mean he can keep up with obitos running speed.

The example of obito closing the distance and naruto being unable to react when guy came to save him did occur on the ground though so saying most of their fight happened when they were airborne is moot. Because they were not for the relevant example we've been talking about this whole time.

That last bit is just flat out horribly wrong. The reason naruto reacted and dodged ei had nothing to do with the fact naruto was running away. Naruto reacted when ei was right in his face half a foot away at most... He didn't react while he was a whiles away and thus being due to a greater distance being covered. 
In fact naruto seen obito coming from a further distance away.. Obito was several feet away from him once he slipped through narutos chakra arm as opposed to ei was several inches away from narutos face when we seen him react and use shunshin away from ei. Yet he still couldnt just use his shunshin .lagainst obito.

So that means either naruto was already at full speed aginst obito or obito closed the distance faster than ei and didnt allow naruto to use his shunshin like he could do so against ei once he was serious.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

@NarutoX28 reps 
@SSMG  

so in short you pick and choose feats. instead of using ur brain? kishi clearly had naruto illustrate show and explain that he can control his speed. i.e go faster or slower as he deems necessary 

same for Ei and every other character who uses speed to fight 

ur logic is simply flawed. yugito hit KCM therefore she is faster than V2 Ei. V1 Ei hit KCM therefore he is faster than V2 EI
unless u can somehow prove naruto attempted shusnhin but was too slow. 
this is how ur weak argument falls apart

prove naruto was serious against yugito and all that. was he like omg they are so fast i cant do anything but be hit?


----------



## SSMG (Mar 29, 2015)

Ice... I've already explained why we use the v2 ei feats and why the relate to the war feats. He was serious against v2 raikage and he was also serious for the war especially after starting the fight with obito. He wasn't serious against v1 raikage thus they are not to be considered here.
You asked for proof that naruto was serious though and that can be evident in his convo with smashing off tobis mask.

I mean if you would read my posts before you post so I don't have to repeat myself thatd be great. But that involves you having to read and comprehend my posts which I am a little suspect in your ability to do so.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

your argument got more holes than swiss cheese
so can u prove he was serious against yugito?
yes smashing tobi face mask off, that he wanted to do. what he didnt want to do was harm other jinchuriki which he stated as well. I cant go as easy on u guys as i did with Son. those were his words when he went BM mode 

ur posts are full of empty dumb statements. not my fault. 

Ei the village leader somehow doesnt know that yugito is faster than him?

ur argument gets worse when u realize naruto never wanted to harm the other jin's which obviously makes it harder to fight them. 

being able to control speed is a basic ninja technique. 

The fact that *EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM* knows what V1 Ei and V2 EI means obviously indicates that speed is something which can be controlled. 

we saw BM naruto unable to blitz pass wood dragon then suddenly he has the speed to intercept obito mid swing. . thats him using shunshin right there. 

somethign KCM could never have done because the idea was to use combintation attacks 
there is nothing more stupid than naruto trying to use shushin to hit someone who could be phased out the second they encounter each other. it wouldnt matter how fast naruto was, hence why he wasnt using his top speed. would be pointless, speed isnt enough to out do tobi. quite clearly


----------



## SSMG (Mar 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> your argument got more holes than swiss cheese
> so can u prove he was serious against yugito?
> yes smashing tobi face mask off, that he wanted to do. what he didnt want to do was harm other jinchuriki which he stated as well. I cant go as easy on u guys as i did with Son. those were his words when he went BM mode
> 
> ...



The irony in saying my logic is flawed is just.. Lel worthy.

Yes I can prove he was serious against Yigito. He was fighting in the war so that right there shows he is serious. He is also trying to get to obito so he needs to defeat the jins in order to do so. 

About the quote that he went easy on son is incorrect. He never said that. This is another case of ice not being able to comprehend what someone said.
Raikiri flow.

He is talking to kurama saying that there are more bijuus this time then against son so it will get rough.. It had nothing To do with him holding back.

Yugito was dead so obvious he didn't account for her in his fastest shinobi alive quote.  I can't believe you actually just tried to use that quote about a dead character though... so lol worthy Ice.

So according to you.. Naruto not wanting to hurt them means he's going to let them hit him without even trying to dodge or defend himself? And you say my logic is bad. 
Also do you even have proof naruto didn't want to hurt them?

Because we have this quote here of naruto saying the only solution is to stop them.
Raikiri flow.

I never once said speed can't be controlled so I don't know why you felt the need tell me this.

That bm naruto example has literally nothing to do with our discussion... Heck we shouldn't even be talking about the jins but since you love to derail topics that's where we are.
But as for your bm example.. Naruto rushed in on the wood dragon willingly and got the better of it in the initial clash. He didn't know about the chakra absorption ability of it until after this fact and that was the only reason he was in any trouble to the wood dragon in the first place.

And what? They didn't decide to use combo attacks until the next chapter after this feat. The fact that you still try to use this excuse after its been refuted like 2 years ago shows me that you are extremely slow.

And so let me get this straight.. It makes sense for naruto to go in on obito at not his max speed because obito can phase if naruto tries to hit him? Yeah that makes sense.. Let's try and hit this incredibly fast guy who can phase if he can react to your attack.. But let's try and hit him with not our max speed because why not.

And to top it off he still didn't use this max speed even after his attack attempt failed and now this masked man is about to suck him into his warping jutsu...makes perfect sense.
Nice logic there ice.

The fact of the matter is everything implies naruto was using his full speed on obito and obito countered it easily.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 29, 2015)

SSMG said:


> Did you even read my post that was directed towards you? You're repeating things that have already been refuted...



 I'm actually not. 



> Naruto wasn't serious to v1 ei so you should not use those feats as an example . he was serious however against both obito and v2 ei and that's why the comparison can be made. And him being in cqc against obito doesn't matter as he was also in a cqc situation against raikage and he could react and then use a shunshin when ei was inches away from his face. There's literally no difference in attempt.



 Actually, KCM Naruto took V1 Ei seriously enough in order to up his speed and create a hand seal (presumably Kage Bushin) as a means to bypass Ei. His speed was shown to pressure KCM Naruto considerably enough to the point where KCM Naruto was actually concerned about taking a direct hit from V1 Ei and that was prior to knowing Ei's full speed.

 KCM Naruto wasn't engaged in CQC against V2 Ei while KCM Naruto was against Obito. Considering KCM Naruto attempted to counterattack Obito on multiple occasions, Naruto could not Shunshin. I think it's more of you refusing to believe that counterattacking doesn't hamper your reflexes while in all actuality it does considering Obito with Precognition and Kamui can use that to his advantage and strike at Naruto's opening. 

 Raikiri flow.

 An accurate example would be here considering Obito simply phased through, hardly moving from his initial position and nearly absorbed KCM Naruto. Prior to this, he also whipped a KCM Naruto clone effortlessly while he attempted to counterattack. It was clear KCM Naruto wasn't using his full speed or Obito would've noted a flash considering Tsunade and Ei did as well.



> The time naruto was airborne and keeping up with obito is canceled out by the fact that obito phased upwards through the ground so that is essentially an already airborne obito at that point. So naruto keeping up with him there does not mean he can keep up with obitos running speed.



 Obito actually hopped on to the boulders to reach KCM Naruto in which KCM Naruto was completely airborne and left vulnerable against Obito.



> The example of obito closing the distance and naruto being unable to react when guy came to save him did occur on the ground though so saying most of their fight happened when they were airborne is moot. Because they were not for the relevant example we've been talking about this whole time.



 What makes you think KCM Naruto used Shunshin here? Shunshin, whenever used are clearly drawn by the author to be instantaneous. Sasuke vs. Deidara, V2 Ei against KCM Naruto, KCM Naruto's Shunshin against Ei, and Itachi against Kurenai are all clear examples. However here, KCM Naruto did not "flash" like Tsunade mentioned and he was mainly attempting to time his strike. Shunshin would be useless considering that would hamper KCM Naruto's reactions to strike and leave himself with an opening. This is clear with Sasuke against Killer Bee when he could not just use Shunshin in an attempt to "blitz" Killer Bee or else he'd leave an opening in which Bee would take an advantage of it.



> That last bit is just flat out horribly wrong. The reason naruto reacted and dodged ei had nothing to do with the fact naruto was running away. Naruto reacted when ei was right in his face half a foot away at most... He didn't react while he was a whiles away and thus being due to a greater distance being covered.



 Actually, it had all to do with it. 

 Raikiri flow.

 KCM Naruto perceived Ei's movement the entire time as his comments were directed at Ei. Logically, running away from V2 Ei would make it considerably easier to react to an attack. Imagine a bullet at the speed of sound rushing at you. Will it be easier to react to that bullet moving at 700 mph, or if you were charging at that bullet 700mph? Obviously the former as the bullet appears to be moving slower as it takes more time to reach you. That's precisely the reason why KCM Naruto was countered by V1 Ei while he could react to V2 Ei with Shunshin. 



> In fact naruto seen obito coming from a further distance away.. Obito was several feet away from him once he slipped through narutos chakra arm as opposed to ei was several inches away from narutos face when we seen him react and use shunshin away from ei. Yet he still couldnt just use his shunshin .lagainst obito.



 Likely because Shunshin would leave him susceptible to being attacked and leave him very little time to react to Obito's Kamui anyways. The whole point was to time his strikes correctly to counter Obito's Kamui, not charge at Obito with max speed, leaving yourself open and unable to time your strikes properly.



> So that means either naruto was already at full speed aginst obito or obito closed the distance faster than ei and didnt allow naruto to use his shunshin like he could do so against ei once he was serious.



 You still haven't proven that Naruto used Shunshin which makes your whole argument fall apart.


----------



## SSMG (Mar 29, 2015)

@narutox

Evidently he didn't take him seriously to use his full speed against v1 ei. He was aware of raikages v1 strength but that doesn't equate to naruto going all out and being seriois. But we know naruto was even more serious about fighting obito than his whole match up with ei because naruto was pissed at obito and wanting to smash his mask off. Since he wasn't really all that angry at ei even when he used his v2 speed it shows how he's more serious against obito.

It was cqc for both obito and ei. They both rushed in on naruto with a attack stemming from their respective hands. Raikage was trying to punch naruto and obito was trying to touch naruto for his kamui warp. 

And do you have any proof that counterattacking actually hampers his ability to shunshin? We seen people use shunshin while fighting other characters then use it for defense like bee when he shunshind to another mountain. He was even paralyzed by raiton the page before he used shunshin. So do you have any basis for someone being distracted trying to use shunshin and failing?

Now I do agree that obito can utilize his sharigan to attack at the right time.. But he can only attack as fast as he can move which was enough to force guy to save naruto.


No for that example is what we've been talking about this whole time. Obito rushed through narutos chakra arm while naruto was still also actively moving towards obito as well. Naruto not using his full speed here makes no sense because obito has also reacted and phased through eis full speed at the kage summit without making note of his shunshin so I don't see why he'd need to against naruto. 

Also considering the fact guy came to narutos rescue also shows how naruto is already going all out. No need to go save someone and risk the chances of guy himself getting warped by obito.. Of obito can just amp up his speed to save himself. 

Also the reason why obito didn't comment on narutos flash like movement is because to obito it wasn't flash like.

Yeah and obito first did this by phasing through the ground. So he was already airborne and forced naruto upwards.

I think naruto used shunshin there because thats wjat makes sense.

Also we seen raikage use a shunshin and not be instaneoues.. He had internal thoughts while moving towards minato so that's a moot point. Its only instant like to people who can't follow that speed but since obito could follow narutos speed there's no point in bringing that up.

Ei cut naruto off in his dialogue which makes it seem he didn't follow him up until the last minute. Because the fact of the matter is we don't see naruto tracking ei until the last second and your example does not refute this. So it stands then that he seen ei when we see him see ei.

We do know he followed obitos movement earlier because he tried to chakra arm him but failed. And after this he had several feet to use a shunshin if he could but obito closed the distance to quick for him to do so. Again this is opppsed to raikage who he reacted to inches away and then used shunshin.
So in the least obito was traveling faster than ei yet guy kept up with obito.


Naruto going in slow against obito doesn't make any sense. If you have to time your attacks to obitos kamui and counteracting this means you need to be as quick as possible to do so. And then on the flip side if naruto didn't ho in on fu speed against obito it wouldn't make sense because in order to them to cause obito to use kamui you gotta put attacks on him. If he could dodge the attack its worthless and if he can phase through your attack faster than your attack then it'd leave you wide open for his counterattack. You gotta go in with full speed on him to force him to give you the opportunity to get a successful counter attack on him.

Except I have. Naruto wouldn't have needed to be saved from guy if naruto wasn't already at full speed. 

Also my argument was that either naruto used his full speed against obito.
Or that obito closed in on naruto faster than naruto could react and use shunshin, thus making obito faster than ei.


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2015)

I'm pretty sure Fu and Torrune were doing the same tit-for-tat strategy with moderate success. A strong case can be made for all these ninja so long as they have knowledge.

Obito's defensive ability is self-evidently supreme, but his offensive ability (sans Izanagi and later power-ups) is overestimated. He had to replace limbs in order to take out Fu and Torrune.​


----------



## Ashi (Mar 29, 2015)

Ge, Here's a thought:

Maybe Naruto can't run at full speed as often as we would like?


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 30, 2015)

Tensa
I gotta agree 
Why would he be able to 
He isn't a fighter who relies on taijutsu 
And he got chakra arms clones etc. Speed isn't something he always needs to use . Or can fight with 

Lee already explained moving at full speed and trying to engage in CQC with the reactions to go with it is more self harming than anything 

Full speed against 6 opponents is dumb he won't be able to see their counters 
Full speed against obito is even worse . His speed would never matter u can't touch someone who has already phased the second they see u

eg 1: Ei vs minato. despite how  fast Ei was he didnt see minato kunai flick. i.e the counter because of tunnel vision. he was only focused on minato upper torso and face. 
I mean he can avoid amaterasu but not notice a kunai flick? obvious tunnel vision issue due to moving full speed. 
gaiden kakashi against rock fodder. despite much being faster he didnt notice the counter, though minato saved him, only kakashi got caught. 

We have lee, minato and kakashi all attest to the fact that unless u have sharingan or some way to boost ur reflexes moving full speed is a bad idea

Naruto got evil intent sensing his reflexes being boosted isnt necessarily true. 

It wouldnt matter how fast he was moving against the jin, he would take out one and not see the counter made by the other. isnt this why a good portion of people claim minato cant beat nagato path of pain. despite being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>faster than them

i hope it wouldnt be silly if they are shown countering them therefore they are faster. because that seems to be the logic of some here which confuses me. 

In any case obito speed and cqc skills are kage level at best nothing impressive per say that dictates u need KCm naruto shunshin speed to keep up. 

if naruto KCM speed could be so easily matched kishi wont waste a chapter hyping up his speed. I mean can u honestly believe itachi, and the jins are at the same speed. its entirely stupid


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 30, 2015)

Itachi would very likely do better than base guy, 
his shunshin and reacions are faster, and has the precognition of sharingan to aid his movements even more, no reason to believe why he cant tag obito herre, when he almost blitzed the likes of base bee and hebi sasuke (both being immensely fast themselves), and had the skill to briefly fight someone as fast as KCM naruto in CQC

Kakashi will and also has already done better, when he canonically defeated him outsiide of their respective kamui moveset, annd this further emphasises my point above seeing how itachi is faster than kakashi, so he would do the same , if not better 

SM naruto has the ability to do better as well, though he would need full intel and the means of clones to be able to tag him, and without those he isnt landing a hit on obito, 

and as for your last qustion, well 7th gate guy would have definitely overwhelmed obito, especially when we have already seen him tag and land clean blows on someone thats tiers and tiers above this obito, so landing and overwhelming obito especially when base guy was able to fight him in CQC is a piece of cake for 7G guy, he wrecks him in a CQC fight


----------



## Trojan (Mar 30, 2015)

> Itachi would very likely do better than base guy,
> his shunshin and reacions are faster



Can you give examples for his shunshin/reaction feats?



> and had the skill to briefly fight someone as fast as KCM naruto in CQC



sure, let's just pretend that Naruto was fighting for real and he was using his full speed.



> and as for your last qustion, well 7th gate guy would have definitely overwhelmed obito, especially when we have already seen him tag and land clean blows on someone thats tiers and tiers above this obito



BS. Even JJ Madara couldn't tag obito. The same madara who countered 7th Gate Gai's fastest punch easily.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 30, 2015)

@hussain itachi doesnt need to be as fast or have CQC skills on par with gai to perform better than gai did 
clones, karasu, hand seal speed that even SM kabuto can track 

all that would be more useful


----------



## SSMG (Mar 30, 2015)

@ice you do bring up some good points with kakashi and his tunnel vision effect. But we were outright told and shown how that effects kakashi. We didnt have any implication of this for kcm naruto. Maybe that blitz against kisame shows this but after that point he honed his new found powers.

I dont remember the lee quote so ill look for that now. 

And for ei it may be because of tunnel vision effects but i dunno if thats the case. Youd have to assume he has thus effect even though the goes against his whole characters move set. Theres less assumptions by chalking that up to minatos insane handspeed and reactions...since we know minato is a beast in these departments.

But as you said naruto does have that evil intent sense. And weve seen that he can use that instead of needing to rely on his eyes to react. So its hard to say that even if he had the tunneling effect that this sense wouldn't override it.

And I never said naruto was using full speed the whole time against the jins. They were tagging naruto though and he couldn't react yet he could react not to mention ridge eis full speed. That's why the jins get scaled up.

Against obito we know he was solid just mere moments before he rushed in on the real naruto... Because he popped the naruto clone. Why didn't naruto go full speed in to hit obito the instant he went solid? Its proly because he was already going full speed. Coupled in with the other reasons naruto was going full speed and there's really no reason for why he shouldn't have.

But how can you say obitos speed is only kage level when he went to the kage summit not a single kage could touch him. No clearly he is above there tier in speed and reactions.

And you shouldn't mention itachi for this when mentioning how the Edo jins would get scaled up. Itachi attacked naruto without landing any hits in cqc and itachi was the one attacking naruto just defended himself. Naruto had many clones fighting in all fronts around the war. Naruto wasn't serious against itachi and was holding a convo with him(something he stated he was unable to do against the jins in a weaker/slower form of them to boot.) So just because naruto kept up with itachi when itachi attacked him doesn't mean he gets scaled up to eis speed like the jins do because of all of these circumstances that weren't there for the jins.

for your reply to Hussain the other poster stated that itachi had better reactions and speed feats than base guy so Hussain's just looking for proof of this claim. Those things you mentioned would help itachi in this situation but that's not what Hussain is asking.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 30, 2015)

ah thanks. but arent u the one who said kishi doesnt always have to mention it
ur argument used against u at its best. feats showed that people without magic eyes or some reaction enhacement get tunnel vision 
kishi cant show it for every character but no magic eyes=tunnel vision 

this must also be the reason why minato relies on hirashin and a principle reason why its much better for fighting purposes. it eliminates tunnel vision completely 

tunnel vision would apply to naruto as well. he doesnt get magic eyes because he has a chakra cloak
what he gets is evil sensing. which isnt the same as seeing or predicting 

yes minato is a beast. however u must realize he cant flick it faster than something which kishi went through the trouble of illustrating stating and DB including is instantenous. if he was rushing at sasuke full speed, ama would have hit him .Vs playing the counter, because he wouldnt see the Ama coming his way 

the jins' shouldnt be scaled up at all. Naruto 1 was never remotely seriously tryign to harm them. something he stated 2. if u know naruto wasnt usign full speed against the jins on what basis are u scaling them up. 
i mean might as well scale up V1 Ei with that logic 

 naruto goign full speed at the point were obito destroyed the clone would have been stupid. kakashi had already told them to keep their distance to avoid obito obvuous counter. hence why naruto went with a chakra arm with a mini BD in his arm. naruto was never tryign to engage obito in cqc because regardless of how fast he is goign he wouldnt touch obito. 

speed against obito is next to impossible. but that has nothing to do with obito physical speed. 

look at the scans again naruto threw punches.  try harder

naruto wasnt serious against the jins either. he didnt want to hurt them

the jins dont get scaled up at all. 6 enemies attacking one enemy isnt hard. they dont have to be nearly as fast as the one person when there are 6 of u. same way pain can take on kages yet individually bar deva path no path of pain can even beat the likes of asuma 1 on 1 

i know what hussain is asking i guess was provoked though its pointless. to ask such. base gai is faster at moving from point A to B than itachi.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 30, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @hussain itachi doesnt need to be as fast or have CQC skills on par with gai to perform better than gai did
> clones, karasu, hand seal speed that even SM kabuto can track
> 
> all that would be more useful



Well, I was not talking about doing better than Gai per se, but rather about the points that he provided as a support to his argument. 

As for the thread, Obito will warp all of them, most likely.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 30, 2015)

agreed obito still wraps all of them 
i just want to know if they can last as long as gai did


----------



## SSMG (Mar 30, 2015)

It doesn't always have to be stated no, but it should be either stated shown or implied in some way shape or form. Naruto getting a tunnel vusion like effect was none of the above... Besides as I said his feat against kisame but then he trained the form and got accustomed to it.

Naruto has used his evil sensing to react to one of the Edo jins when he was blinded...so that implies he can use his evil sensing to counter the tunneling effect.


No his kunai trick wasn't faster than instant.. It was just faster than ei.
And you'd need to prove that ei would get burnt by am a if he rushed in. Cuz ei did react after miinato used ftg to get away  but before minato counteredattack while ei rushed in on him.


You claim that's something naruto stated.. But I've already refuted that and shown you how your claim was incorrect. If you would like to prove that claim that's fine but as of right now that has no merit here. Likewise I've already given you a quote from naruto of him saying he has no choice but to defeat the jins.

I literally just told you why we scale them up to ei. They were able to land hits on a serious naruto something v2 ei could not do. You have yet to attempt to refute this besides bringing up v1 ei which that notion has been refuted.

Kakashi never told him to not get close. He told him to attack when he's solid which happens when he tries to absorb something(and also when he pops narutos clone). Guy told him to try and get in close with feints which is what naruto was attempting. 
(4)
But if naruto used his chakra arm instead of a shunshin to get in close that tells me either he is already going full speed and he can't cover the distance in time... Or that his chakra arm is faster than him getting a shunshin ready to go full speed.

Also we've seen obito get hit due to someone's superior speed with minato so those points of speed is useless against obito is moot. 

Naruto threw punches to meet itachis own punches. At no point in there exchange was naruto on the offensive. But that's just one point on why itachi doesn't get scaled up.

Can you post the link of naruto stated he wasn't trying against the jins? Because I've already posted the real link to what he said to kurama about son goku in which you didn't refute this... so this is starting to look like you're repeating a conceded point.

But after going back and looking at it I think you're right about the jins. The first one naruto was able to block and then he started getting tagged by the rest of them with there follow up attacks. So he could at least react and guard himself when it is one v one. 
But that doesn't matter as it was a 1v1 in regards to obitos speed and he was helpless against his speed. And this is fundamentally the topic at hand.

N well its never pointless to ask a baseless claim to prove there stance or else there'd never be accountibility on our statements.


----------



## SSMG (Mar 30, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> agreed obito still wraps all of them
> i just want to know if they can last as long as gai did



Well I think there's a reason why killer bee was in his giant form and not just in his smaller body... The seven sword style would have cut obito right up


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 30, 2015)

> SSMG said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't always have to be stated no, but it should be either stated shown or implied in some way shape or form. Naruto getting a tunnel vusion like effect was none of the above... Besides as I said his feat against kisame but then he trained the form and got accustomed to it.
> ...


----------



## Trojan (Mar 30, 2015)

Icegaze

Why do you facepalm a lot?


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 30, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Can you give examples for his shunshin/reaction feats?


Blitzing hebi sasuke and nearly blitzing bee 
Both of them being quite fast themselves putting itachis shunshin above obitos, comfortably 




> sure, let's just pretend that Naruto was fighting for real and he was using his full speed.


He still fought him at CQC, so whatever you say won't change what happened and The same could be said for itachi considering they both were talking at their brawl not just naruto 




> BS. Even JJ Madara couldn't tag obito. The same madara who countered 7th Gate Gai's fastest punch easily.



are you implying that JJ madara is less reflexive than obito 
If you are than you never cease to amaze me in humiliating yourself 
Especially when madara tagged obito with his TSB which shat on obitos kamui speed


----------



## Trojan (Mar 30, 2015)

> [=ARGUS;53239786]Blitzing hebi sasuke and nearly blitzing bee
> Both of them being quite fast themselves putting itachis shunshin above obitos, comfortably


Sasuke is no where near Obito though, and "nearly" does not help with anything. B did react and sent him flying. Also, going behind him does not prove anything, unless you believe Nagato moves faster than obito as well which is ridiculous.  



> He still fought him at CQC, so whatever you say won't change what happened and The same could be said for itachi considering they both were talking at their brawl not just naruto


No, whatever you say wont change the fact that itachi is the one who attacked, and Naruto was countering him, and he only wanted to talk, and he said that. Kishi couldn't have made it more clear..

- lol, no. How can the same be said about itachi when Kabuto was the one controlling him? 




> are you implying that JJ madara is less reflexive than obito
> If you are than you never cease to amaze me in humiliating yourself
> Especially when madara tagged obito with his TSB which shat on obitos kamui speed



No, I am stating what happened. You being delusional as always does not change the fact that
Madara failed to get his Rinnegan back because of the Kamui. Same Madara who countered 7th Gate Gai easily.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 30, 2015)

can we get back on topic hussain 

u and ur pointless arguments. 

please stick to the question. can they last as long as guy. thats the point of the thread. if they cant use ur big boy words and explain why


----------



## Trojan (Mar 30, 2015)

I don't feel like writing much, I already told you what I think will happen. Narudo has the best chance because
of his clones, and sensing abilities tho. And he is the only one here I care about enough to write this.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 30, 2015)

Killer bee with his sword dance can avoid being teleport if he keeps spinning. Obito can't become tangible and warp bee via touch when he gotta go through tornado of slices to do so. If stops then he will be warped but yeah.

Sage naruto can last long with clones. Sensing+clones would eliminate blindspots and all that matters then if they can keep up with obito physically which i'm sure they can.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 30, 2015)

What about itachi and Kakashj lasting just as long as Gai 
Am surprised so many don't even mention them despite their skill with clones which exceed naruto usage since they can actuallly rig theirs


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 30, 2015)

I doubt Gai can use Shunshin.

 After all, Shunshin is a ninjutsu and from what is implied, Gai is unable to use ninjutsu.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 30, 2015)

He can. 
Summoning jutsu is a ninjutsu, and in the Databook he has 2 elements as well. Also, shunshin is only using the chakra to increase the speed anyway, nothing supernatural.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 30, 2015)

Hussain said:


> He can.
> Summoning jutsu is a ninjutsu, and in the Databook he has 2 elements as well. Also, shunshin is only using the chakra to increase the speed anyway, nothing supernatural.



 Oh yeah, well .....










 That's actually a good point. I was considering that as Shunshin isn't anything that impressive, but I had my doubts.


----------



## Jad (Mar 30, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I doubt Gai can use Shunshin.
> 
> After all, Shunshin is a ninjutsu and from what is implied, Gai is unable to use ninjutsu.



Just a heads up 

Might be a forgettable feat for some, but disappearing and appearing behind a person, even a child, without them noticing from A to B is super fast. Kishimoto wasn't thinking of the battledome when he made Gai do that.

I believe Gai did something similar against Obito here . You might say that was from Hachibi's throw, but two things don't make sense:

1. Hachibi threw Gai with full knowledge he would land 10 centimeters from Obito from so far?
2. Gai's momentum definately would have slowed down having to smash that Gargantuan boulder. So I don't believe it's out of question to believe Gai just bounced off the rocks (literal stepping stone) he smashed to land under Obito.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 30, 2015)

I already conceded though the first scan definitely confirms that Gai used Shunshin.


----------



## Jad (Mar 31, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I already conceded though the first scan definitely confirms that Gai used Shunshin.



I know, wasn't trying to force it down your throat or anything. To be honest, my post was more directed at others that might be still _iffy_.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 31, 2015)

SSMG said:


> It doesn't always have to be stated no, but it should be either stated shown or implied in some way shape or form. Naruto getting a tunnel vusion like effect was none of the above... Besides as I said his feat against kisame but then he trained the form and got accustomed to it.




 We've seen KCM Naruto utilize Sensing such as against Obito to perceive his "surprise attack", but that had nothing to do with enhancing one's reflexes, just being able to sense their location. That's precisely why Karin can't do shit with her sensing in combat.



> Naruto has used his evil sensing to react to one of the Edo jins when he was blinded...so that implies he can use his evil sensing to counter the tunneling effect.



 When was this?

 It still doesn't mean anything when we take into consideration that KCM Naruto couldn't rely on on Shunshin to defeat the 3rd Raikage and instead, resorted to a slower SM Naruto with superior reflexes to react to him. KCM Naruto's reflexes were indeed hampered by having to charge at his opponent and instead, resorted to superior sensing to counter that.




> No his kunai trick wasn't faster than instant.. It was just faster than ei.
> And you'd need to prove that ei would get burnt by am a if he rushed in. Cuz ei did react after miinato used ftg to get away  but before minato counteredattack while ei rushed in on him.



 No it wasn't. Ei has to build up his chakra for Shunshin, similar to how built his chakra for Shunshin against both MS Sasuke and Madara.

 I do agree that Ei wasn't vulnerable to Minato's attacks as Minato had to rely on subduing Bee to defeat Ei, however, Minato is considerably slower than Ei, moreso with the fact that his strike speed is inferior to Young Obito's, so it's no surprise Minato wouldn't be able to strike Ei given that Ei had knowledge on his technique.




> I literally just told you why we scale them up to ei. They were able to land hits on a serious naruto something v2 ei could not do. You have yet to attempt to refute this besides bringing up v1 ei which that notion has been refuted.



 Base Jin were also able to land hits on KCM Naruto yet that doesn't even put them on V2 Ei's level of speed or Yugito would've outright blitzed Bee which she didn't. The only reason they managed to land hits was due to the Sharingan and Shared Vision which enhanced the efficiency of their moves.



> Kakashi never told him to not get close. He told him to attack when he's solid which happens when he tries to absorb something(and also when he pops narutos clone). Guy told him to try and get in close with feints which is what naruto was attempting.
> allowed bits of Kurama's chakra to mix in with Naruto's chakra and become his own
> But if naruto used his chakra arm instead of a shunshin to get in close that tells me either he is already going full speed and he can't cover the distance in time... Or that his chakra arm is faster than him getting a shunshin ready to go full speed.



 His Chakra Arm is a rather fast technique, but unlike the Chakra Arm, KCM Naruto has never used the Shunshin in order to attack. That's made clear against the 3rd Raikage despite being faster than him.

 KCM Naruto did rely on feints, however, in order to time his strikes properly, he can't just Shunshin or his reactions are hindered and his abilitiy to time his strikes is reduced.



> Naruto threw punches to meet itachis own punches. At no point in there exchange was naruto on the offensive. But that's just one point on why itachi doesn't get scaled up.



 Itachi also fended off Base Bee from behind if that means anything.



> Can you post the link of naruto stated he wasn't trying against the jins? Because I've already posted the real link to what he said to kurama about son goku in which you didn't refute this... so this is starting to look like you're repeating a conceded point.



 He did, but even Yugito struggled to keep up with Base Bee. The fact that KCM Naruto didn't use Shunshin meant it was ineffective as he had to maintain his focus in order to pull the stakes out of the Jin.

 I would respond to the rest, but I g2g.


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 31, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Sasuke is no where near Obito though,


Give me one good shunshin feat of Obito that puts him above Itachis, 


> and "nearly" does not help with anything. B did react and sent him flying. Also, going behind him does not prove anything,


Itachi had to give Bee a heads up warning prior to his attack, 
bee was clearly too slow to move and thus we have the fact that he was nearly blitzed, 
there is also the fact that iitachi completely evaded all of bees sword dance attack which shat on sasuke, who is another MS user, 

as for blitzing sasuke Lol. hebi sasukes speed is amongst the likes of kakashis shushin,  and at that stage was one of the fastest characters in the manga, 
bltzing him is a feat that takes a dump on any oof obitos shunshin feats, 



> unless you believe Nagato moves faster than obito as well which is ridiculous.


baseless example (as usual) and has already been addressd above 
whats worse is that nagato was invisible at that time, and ST is an instant intagible force, so no matter what, naruto had no chance of aniticipating or reacting to the attack, 



> No, whatever you say wont change the fact that itachi is the one who attacked,


Guess by logic, since minato attacked obito, once he was marked, then that means that obito wasnt blitzed? 
your double standard logic always bites you back 


> and Naruto was countering him, and he only wanted to talk, and he said that. Kishi couldn't have made it more clear..


does that change the fact that Itachi was fighting KCM naruto on CQC? no it doesnt,
was naruto not attacking despite jumping up to itachi before he began his attack? hell no 
so both werre attacking, and talking,and itachi showed the CQC and taijutsu skill to fight naruto 
doesnt matter if naruto wasnt using his top speed, since that isnt relevant in this sceanrio 
nothing you do would change this fact 



> - lol, no. How can the same be said about itachi when Kabuto was the one controlling him?


already addressed 




> No, I am stating what happened. You being delusional as always does not change the fact that
> Madara failed to get his Rinnegan back because of the Kamui. Same Madara who countered 7th Gate Gai easily.


Uhh No, 
madara only attempted to snatch his rinnegan, 
arm movement =/= top speed, 
then theres the fact that TSB were pushing back obito since they were faster than his kamui, shitting on him on the process since he couldnt even warp, let alone attack madara, 
and madara himself stated that his Limbo would be even faster, 
given the fact that limbos have the same properties as the original, also implies that JJ madaras shunshin is well above the likes of Obito, 

as for 7th gate guy, lol Minato fanboys seem butthurt since his taijutsu skill and reactions took a dump on SM minatos, so their denial, (as usual) is at its highest, 

guy landed clean blows on madara forcing him to block instead of evading and, avoided getting hit by TSB, not only that but he intercepted and protected  kakashi from the TSB (faster than kamui) from a distance where he couldnt even be seen, 
base minato had reactions well above Obitos, SM minato is above base, whilst 7th gate guy is well well above SM minato in that department, 

so interms of reactions and striking speed, 
7th gate guy >>>> SM Minato > Base Minato > Obito 
no reason to believe why someone far far above base guy who avoided getting warped by obito and someone far far far above him in reactions, striking speed, and taijutsu skill is not landing blows on obito, 

so again, whatever you do, would not help you here, because your arguments are humilitiating herre


----------



## Trojan (Apr 1, 2015)

> =ARGUS;53245653]Give me one good shunshin feat of Obito that puts him above Itachis,


there is nothing in top of my head. Not as if that matters since Obito uses Kamui anyway, and his shunshin is irrelevant. 


> Itachi had to give Bee a heads up warning prior to his attack,
> bee was clearly too slow to move and thus we have the fact that he was nearly blitzed,
> there is also the fact that iitachi completely evaded all of bees sword dance attack which shat on sasuke, who is another MS user,


lol, no. B knew that, and he was not slow since he reacted just fine. 
MS jutsu's can be used through objects
B: "I know" 

yeah, by running away and fleeing to Nagato's summon.  


> as for blitzing sasuke Lol. hebi sasukes speed is amongst the likes of kakashis shushin,  and at that stage was one of the fastest characters in the manga,
> bltzing him is a feat that takes a dump on any oof obitos shunshin feats,



his speed was 4.5, obito went through Sasuke's attacks easily, BM Naruto, and many other characters. You are trying so badly to proof that his feat with hebi sasuke means jack against Kamui, but sadly, it does not.  

Also,  How does his feat against Sasuke prove such a thing when Gai is faster than Sasuke? 


> baseless example (as usual) and has already been addressd above
> whats worse is that nagato was invisible at that time, and ST is an instant intagible force, so no matter what, naruto had no chance of aniticipating or reacting to the attack,


Such an irrelevant response. Seriously, do you read or not? 
Naruto has nothing to do with my point, it's about freaking B. And even ST does not have anything with the fact that Nagato went behind him, or do you think Nagato pushing B via ST is in fact pulling him towards himself?  


> Guess by logic, since minato attacked obito, once he was marked, then that means that obito wasnt blitzed?
> your double standard logic always bites you back



What? 
I don't even know what does Minato have to do with anything I said, or what are you even trying to say. You put Minato, and you jump to your own conclusion, and it's my double standard when I did not even claim such a thing? 

ARGUS, you seem really tired.  



> does that change the fact that Itachi was fighting KCM naruto on CQC? no it doesnt,


That has got to be the ,,,, thing ever. 
yes it does change everything genius. Why? Because if people don't use their full power, it does not matter what mode they are using because they mean no harm.  

and you are talking about a mode where the user can control everything, just like how Naruto controls his speed in that mode, it does not mean he is using it at its full speed with every goddamn movement.  


> was naruto not attacking despite jumping up to itachi before he began his attack? hell no


You obviously do not know the different between defending and attacking, do you? 
what Naruto was doing is stopping itachi's attack. Just like you can't say B was attacking him because he cut his fire jutsu in half. Those are basic for God's sake.  


> so both werre attacking, and talking,and itachi showed the CQC and taijutsu skill to fight naruto
> doesnt matter if naruto wasnt using his top speed, since that isnt relevant in this sceanrio
> nothing you do would change this fact


. By your twisted logic, itachi was killed by Hebi Sasuke, and it does not matter if he was not fighting to kill him or anything, and did not show the ability to even dodge his fire dragon jutsu, nor was he able to dodge his shuriken.  



> Uhh No,
> madara only attempted to snatch his rinnegan,
> arm movement =/= top speed,


oh, so now it's not top speed, but above is top speed, because itachi? :rofl
you couldn't even complete one post without contradicting yourself? lol 


> then theres the fact that TSB were pushing back obito since they were faster than his kamui, shitting on him on the process since he couldnt even warp, let alone attack madara,


lol, except that he was trying to warp himself, and if you read the manga you would know that takes more time. Obito was able to protect himself from it nonetheless. Again, itachi on the other hand couldn't do anything to hebi Sasuke dragons, and shurkin by your logic, which by the way are no where as fast as TSB.  



> and madara himself stated that his Limbo would be even faster,
> given the fact that limbos have the same properties as the original, also implies that JJ madaras shunshin is well above the likes of Obito,


and yet he did not use them because obito can see them. If obito can do jack shit because of the different in speed, why does it matter if he can see them or not in your opinion? 



> as for 7th gate guy, lol Minato fanboys seem butthurt since his taijutsu skill and reactions took a dump on SM minatos, so their denial, (as usual) is at its highest,



No, you're being butthurt, and the funny part you above are saying hand speed is not the same as movement speed, when Minato was doing the hand speed thing. But, you just has to keep wanking Gai no matter how much you contradict yourself even in one post yo bring your nonsense as a fact even though you know how much of nonsense it is. How sad. 

you couldn't even write one paragraph without showing that you can't keep your claims in one side. lol 
but rather use them whenever you feel like it helps your case. lol 


> guy landed clean blows on madara forcing him to block instead of evading and, avoided getting hit by TSB, not only that but he intercepted and protected  kakashi from the TSB (faster than kamui) from a *distance where he couldnt even be seen,*



leaving all the nonsense, off-panel feats can't be proven unless you believe that Suigetsu is also faster than the Raikage since he was able to protect Sasuke from him. 


> base minato had reactions well above Obitos, SM minato is above base, whilst 7th gate guy is well well above SM minato in that department,



and base Minato is above 8th gate 5th step Gai when he outsped him by teleporting in and out in one second. 

Also, you show your nonsense once again, when it was about itachi you were "oh well arm movement =/= top speed"

and was Minato doing arm movement, or his top speed? lol 



> so interms of reactions and striking speed,
> 7th gate guy >>>> SM Minato > Base Minato > Obito
> no reason to believe why someone far far above base guy who avoided getting warped by obito and someone far far far above him in reactions, striking speed, and taijutsu skill is not landing blows on obito,



you keep saying this nonsense over and over again, but you know well all of this nonsense does not matter. Madara had speed that countered Gai, couldn't touch Obito.




> so again, whatever you do, would not help you here, because your arguments are humilitiating herre



No, your argument is full of it my dear, and you know it. Here is madara using his arm speed to counter 7th Gate Gai fastest punch
MS jutsu's can be used through objects
that same swipe that did not touch obito. 

Also, this Gai wank was already shown previously by Dominus in what ground it stands in term of the manga when he compared what happened between Gai and madara, with what happened with Kakashi and Sasuke.


----------



## Trojan (Apr 1, 2015)

here it is again

*Spoiler*: __ 




















If kishi was using this laughable argument of yours, then he would have made Sasuke goes heads on with Zabuza right away, and make him a jonin level, since by the incoherence response, Sasuke was already jonin level on per with Kakashi and Gai. 


Edit:
forgot to mention that KCM Naruto was out of breath for making 13 clones before that "battle" and he couldn't even use a clone. 
I guess it's so fair to assume that fighting an extremely exhausted guy is like fighting that guy with his full power by your standards. Such godly justice.


----------

