# New 52 Justice League Vs. Team Universe 7



## windmace123 (May 21, 2017)



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## windmace123 (May 21, 2017)

I'd thought itd be a fair battle

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Deer Lord (May 21, 2017)

windmace123 said:


> I'd thought itd be a fair battle


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## Dreams of Tommorow (May 21, 2017)

how do they stop a bloodlusted Flash


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## Huey Freeman (May 21, 2017)

Barry fucks up another Timeline


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## Claudio Swiss (May 21, 2017)

Last it


Dreams of Tommorow said:


> how do they stop a bloodlusted Flash


Last time i checked new 52 flash isn't as broken as post crisis flash


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## Huey Freeman (May 21, 2017)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Last it
> 
> Last time i checked new 52 flash isn't as broken as post crisis flash


When was the last time you even picked up a flash comic? He can manipulate his own personal time line like Zoom can. He wrekt the entire DBS verse


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## windmace123 (May 21, 2017)

Flash isn't beating Zeno


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## Huey Freeman (May 21, 2017)

Aha and what Zeno can do to affect someone who can control his own timeline


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## xenos5 (May 21, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Aha and what Zeno can do to affect someone who can control his own timeline



Erase the universe/multiverse he's in. There's not really any running from that.


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## Claudio Swiss (May 21, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> You didn't answer my question when last did you pick up a flash comic ?
> 
> No where did I say Barry is as strong as Wally but you don't need to be as strong when you got the Hax and speed advantage


What level is speed let alone hax that would let New 52 flash wreck dbs god tiers? especially the omni kings.


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## Claudio Swiss (May 21, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Aha and what Zeno can do to affect someone who can control his own timeline


nuke the shit outta of it like he did with trunks.


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## Huey Freeman (May 21, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Erase the universe/multiverse he's in. There's not really any running from that.


Multiverse 


Okay I'll repeat myself what can Zeno do to someone who can *control his own time line and time travel. 
*
In case you're new to flash brute force and other conventional attacks isn't going to work on him


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## xenos5 (May 21, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Multiverse
> 
> 
> Okay I'll repeat myself what can Zeno do to someone who can *control his own time line and time travel.
> ...



Zeno can erase a universe with 12 universes in it in an exceedingly short span of time. Zeno is the most powerful being in the dragonball multiverse. It is heavily implied he has existed since the beginning of creation so Flash isn't going to be able to go back in time and kill him as a baby or any shit like that. There is no point in time where Zeno is weak enough for Flash to be able to do anything to him. In whatever time Flash Travels to Zeno will just destroy the multiverse again and again and there'll be nothing flash can do about it.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Huey Freeman (May 21, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Zeno can erase a universe with 12 universes in it in an exceedingly short span of time. Zeno is the most powerful being in the dragonball multiverse. It is heavily implied he has existed since the beginning of creation so Flash isn't going to be able to go back in time and kill him as a baby or any shit like that. There is no point in time where Zeno is weak enough for Flash to be able to do anything to him. In whatever time Flash Travels to Zeno will just destroy the multiverse again and again and there'll be nothing flash can do about it.


since you are very ignorant on what other verses can do, I'll explain sound to me this Zeno guy has nothing but brute power. That's cute, brute power isn't how bring down a flash worst one that also has Zooms Power as well. 
Flash exists in his own personal time line,  he can increase its speed and slow it down. He can use it influence other time lines. Which means unless I see otherwise, Zeno Timeline gets slow down.
Also Destroying a multiverse doesn't means he can kill the flash , Barry will side step that shit by vibrating in and out the speed force.


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## hammer (May 21, 2017)

Didn't the new 52 flash become death


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## Huey Freeman (May 21, 2017)

hammer said:


> Didn't the new 52 flash become death


Yup he also was death for a pretty good while as well.


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## accountmaker (May 21, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> since you are very ignorant on what other verses can do, I'll explain sound to me this Zeno guy has nothing but brute power. That's cute, brute power isn't how bring down a flash worst one that also has Zooms Power as well.
> Flash exists in his own personal time line,  he can increase its speed and slow it down. He can use it influence other time lines. Which means unless I see otherwise, Zeno Timeline gets slow down.
> Also Destroying a multiverse doesn't means he can kill the flash , Barry will side step that shit by vibrating in and out the speed force.


Huey, Zeno is above characters such as Hiit, that can create their own region of spacetime, which is something Goku was able to break with "brute power". Ki in Dragon Ball has haxx properties. Buu and Gotenks yelling their way out of the HPTC; Janemba's existence, Gogeta "purging" the evil inside aforementioned; the entire concept of the Spirit Bomb... List goes on. Zeno is the end all be all. The midget destroyed a being who had encompassed all of reality within his universe and was beginning to spread to others. He destroyed the universe as a side effect of this.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## hammer (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Yup he also was death for a pretty good while as well.


I could only findone comic, and Batman also knows everything in his chair.

Do we consider 52 and rebirth different


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## xenos5 (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> since you are very ignorant on what other verses can do, I'll explain sound to me this Zeno guy has nothing but brute power. That's cute, brute power isn't how bring down a flash worst one that also has Zooms Power as well.
> Flash exists in his own personal time line,  he can increase its speed and slow it down. He can use it influence other time lines. Which means unless I see otherwise, Zeno Timeline gets slow down.
> Also Destroying a multiverse doesn't means he can kill the flash , Barry will side step that shit by vibrating in and out the speed force.



How the hell do you think Flash would be able to survive in a void without space-time? He shouldn't even be able to move in that environment. If he has to leave and go to the speedforce to survive and isn't able to come back without dying won't he have essentially BFRd himself from the fight?


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

hammer said:


> I could only findone comic, and Batman also knows everything in his chair.
> 
> Do we consider 52 and rebirth different


Rebirth is just a soft reboot but the continuity is there as Barry regain his memories from new52 and post crisis.


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## hammer (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Rebirth is just a soft reboot but the continuity is there as Barry regain his memories from new52 and post crisis.


Fuck Dr Manhattan


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> *How the hell do you think Flash would be able to survive in a void without space-time? He shouldn't even be able to move in that environment. If he has to leave and go to the speedforce to survive and isn't able to come back without dying won't he have essentially BFRd himself from the fight*?



do have Some kind of learning  disability he has his own time line now, Zeno destroying the multiverse doesn't mean he destroyed Flashes time line.

Oh and just an FYI as long as the speed force exist That's all
Flash needs.


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

hammer said:


> Fuck Dr Manhattan


Well it was because of that we got back Red hair Wally. So there's a pro

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## xenos5 (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> do have Some kind of learning  disability he has his own time line now, Zeno destroying the multiverse doesn't mean he destroyed Flashes time line.
> 
> Oh and just an FYI as long as the speed force exist That's all
> Flash needs.



Flash can hop from timeline to timeline all he wants. Multiverse is just gonna be destroyed over and over. Zeno is no slouch in speed BTW. GM calced how fast he destroyed future trunks multiverse/timeline and he got a little over 1 quintillion c. Does  N52 Flash even have speed feats in that range?


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> You're making all kinds of claims without evidence, aren't ya? So Flash can't be killed because he's "in his own timeline" but he can attack without leaving the timeline? Can you post scans of this shit? I doubt New 52 Flash is invincible as you're claiming he is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No one said flash can't be killed, I said Flash can't be fucked by Brute force Kai beams, someone who has strong has or even powerful time powers than him can fuck him up. Zeno has none .

really you can't be this dense. Think Xeno someone who observe time in fractions near an attosecond what does that mean? Think


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## Courier Six (May 22, 2017)

Wasn't this a Justice league vs U7 team? What does Zenos have to do with this fight?

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## xenos5 (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> No one said flash can't be killed, I said Flash can't be fucked by Brute force Kai beams, someone who has strong has or even powerful time powers than him can fuck him up. Zeno has none .



Can you provide scans or not? 



Huey Freeman said:


> really you can't be this dense. Think Xeno someone who observe time in fractions near an attosecond what does that mean? Think



So you don't have a calc to present and are just going to claim Flash is faster because of lotfemtosecond or lolattosecond? Alright. I don't think you really understand how fast 1 quintillion c really is. it's essentially a quintillion times the speed of light.


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Can you provide scans or not?
> 
> 
> 
> So you don't have a calc to present and are just going to claim Flash is faster because of lotfemtosecond or lolattosecond? Alright. I don't think you really understand how fast 1 quintillion c really is. it's essentially a quintillion times the speed of light.



Yes what is speed ? Distance over *time. Measured at its lowest in seconds
*
You  know what a femtosecond is? It's one quindrillionth of a second. Light travels .3 micrometers I'm 1 femtosecond. Just for the record micrometers are what we use to measure fucking bacteria and viruses Barry percieve time like this.  What this means? why can Barry react to that speed?  It means while this guy is traveling at quintillion c, Barry will see this guy moving at an incredible slow rate because his perception of time itself is much lower than that of his opponent.


No offense but you have zero understanding of physics and should stay far away from calcs of you can't fucking comprehend how t manipulates speed. Lower the fraction of t the faster you are


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## Catalyst75 (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> When was the last time you even picked up a flash comic? He can manipulate his own personal time line like Zoom can. He wrekt the entire DBS verse



Dragon Ball Multiverse is actually protected from such things.  Any changes made to the past just creates a new timeline with no effects on the old one.  The Androids Saga and Future Trunks Saga were built on that concept.



Huey Freeman said:


> Aha and what Zeno can do to affect someone who can control his own timeline



He nuked all of space-time when he obliterated the Future Trunks Multiverse that Zamasu merged with.

Huey, I know you from the NF Cafe, but _PLEASE_ don't turn into another Tonathan100.



Huey Freeman said:


> since you are very ignorant on what other verses can do, I'll explain sound to me this Zeno guy has nothing but brute power. That's cute, brute power isn't how bring down a flash worst one that also has Zooms Power as well.
> Flash exists in his own personal time line, he can increase its speed and slow it down. He can use it influence other time lines. Which means unless I see otherwise, Zeno Timeline gets slow down.
> Also Destroying a multiverse doesn't means he can kill the flash , Barry will side step that shit by vibrating in and out the speed force.



I wasn't aware that the Speed Force existed separate from the Multiverse, rather than actually being part of its fabric.

Zen-oh didn't simply "destroy all the planets and galaxies" in all twelve Universe, because he wouldn't have been able to destroy Zamasu, who had merged with the fabric of reality, if he did that.  Zen-oh obliterated *the fabric of space-time itself.  *When Zen-oh was done, there was nothing left but a void left filled with whatever constituents make up the Dragon Ball reality.

And technically speaking, the little guy *also nuked the afterlife.  *Each Universe has its own Afterlife, and each Universe also has its own World of the Supreme Kai.  The Afterlife is about the same size as the material Universe, and each World of the Supreme Kai is a tenth the size of the material Universe (and exists outside the Universe).  In other words, Zen-Oh not only nuked the material Universe, but his power also crossed the dimensional barriers and obliterated twelve Afterlives and twelve smaller Universes.

The Flash goes into the Speed Force (which is connected to the Multiverse), Zen-Oh would just nuke the area of the Speed Force connected to the Dragon Ball Super Universe (since Barry generates it wherever he goes).



Huey Freeman said:


> No one said flash can't be killed, I said Flash can't be fucked by Brute force Kai beams, someone who has strong has or even powerful time powers than him can fuck him up. Zeno has none .
> 
> really you can't be this dense. Think Xeno someone who observe time in fractions near an attosecond what does that mean? Think



Last time I checked, Barry doesn't have the raw power or durability to kill something that can survive destroying a Multiverse.  Unless Barry can break Zen-Oh's durability, he is not going to do any damage to him.  

Meanwhile, Zen-Oh can destroy the entire Multiverse (and all the dimensions comprising it) in a matter of seconds and leave Barry with nowhere to run.

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## Dreams of Tommorow (May 22, 2017)

flash can fight multiversals now?


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## Blαck (May 22, 2017)

Couldn't find any real high end feats for Nu52 Barry, most of his best stuff has already been mentioned(controlling his timeline and whatnot), the only Barry that has a chance is New God Barry.


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## SSBMonado (May 22, 2017)

From the shitstorm so far, I assume Flash is the only member of the JL that will pose a problem here, but exactly what can he do to solo this fight?
Going back in time to kill everyone as babies shouldn't work because that's not how time travel works in DB.
So he goes back and either gets done in by Kid Buu at the beginning of time or succeeds in killing everybody. Then he comes back to the present and gets nuked by everybody in attendance because none of what he did actually affected the current timeline.



Rali57 said:


> Wasn't this a Justice league vs U7 team? What does Zenos have to do with this fight?


Bloodlusted Goku would press the Zeno button. idk.

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## Nighty the Mighty (May 22, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Going back in time to kill everyone as babies shouldn't work because that's not how time travel works in DB.



idk if I buy this argument, what's more important here, the way the universe functions in DB or the way the person's abilities are stated to function? 

could be either I suppose, perhaps the fact that time doesn't work that way in DB implies some manner of causality fucker resistance but idk if there's enough evidence for such an assertion so I'd probably lean with the way the opponent's abilities are used


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## King Kakarot (May 22, 2017)

Flash according to recent comics can't time travel accurately to what ever timeline/period he wants too and needs the cosmic treadmill for that so unless he gets that it's useless to say he can travel through time so he wins


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## CrossTheHorizon (May 22, 2017)

Can't Ki be used to break into and destroy personal dimensions/timelines? Goku did exactly that several episodes ago.


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

King Kakarot said:


> Flash according to recent comics can't time travel accurately to what ever timeline/period he wants too and needs the cosmic treadmill for that so unless he gets that it's useless to say he can travel through time so he wins


 Nope 


CrossTheHorizon said:


> Can't Ki be used to break into and destroy personal dimensions/timelines? Goku did exactly that several episodes ago.


Zoom like abilities=/= hit ability two the former power isn't some cheap Parlor trick


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## Courier Six (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Zoom like abilities=/= hit ability two the former power isn't some cheap Parlor trick


How is Hit's ability a cheap parlor trick?


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

Rali57 said:


> How is Hit's ability a cheap parlor trick?



Well Zoom abilities you can't physically overpower his own timeline via a kamehameha that's for starters


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## King Kakarot (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Nope



nope what?

this is coming from recent comics he can't time travel freely without the cosmic treadmill


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## The Runner (May 22, 2017)

Which is kind of sad considering what Wally could have done in his prime iirc


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## CrossTheHorizon (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Nope
> 
> Zoom like abilities=/= hit ability two the former power isn't some cheap Parlor trick



Okay?

Does his ability have some kind of resistance to space time disrupting attacks?

Because God Ki at high enough intensity can destroy dimensions. The one Goku takes out also had that "one step of separation" going on where it ran parallel but couldn't interact with the other.

And he literally obliterated it entirely.


I'm sure Flash or Zoom, with all their time travel shennanigans, have something along those lines. Just post a scan of them tanking a timequake or space disruption or whatever and we'll have something to actually work off of.


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

King Kakarot said:


> nope what?
> 
> this is coming from recent comics he can't time travel freely without the cosmic treadmill


That's not the latest issue. In the latest issue the treadmill broke and Jay pushed Bruce and Barry through, but conveniently you left out the important part as why Barry needed the threadmill for this mini series in the first place because in rebirth 10 years have been stolen from the timeline and it seem no one can get to it . It was made clear when Jay time travelled to help Barry and Manhattan erased Jay before he could
Have told Barry any of his memories.

Issue #22 as a retelling of Barry origins who can see through the time line as shown in the scans right after the ones you posted prior to that interestingly at the start of rebirth There's a Wally west feat where blatantly explains he is faster than time itself. 

The thread is using New 52 so includes the entire time line from Flash 5 years ago to now.


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

CrossTheHorizon said:


> Okay?
> 
> Does his ability have some kind of resistance to space time disrupting attacks?
> 
> ...


I would assume that all this hype for Zeno I would have seen a clip of him doing the things you say he can do ( specifically destroying space-time and affecting a high end time manipulator).

No one in DBS has any high level space time attack of note to make that space time hype even worth mentioning they finally have a character with some form of time stop.


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## King Kakarot (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> snip




What does anything you posted have anything to do with my comment he can't freely go through time* as stated by Barry himself
*
I don't need you to explain to me what happened in this story line I know because I've read it for myself 


Wally saying he's faster than time itself is a hyperbole


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## CrossTheHorizon (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> I would assume that all this hype for Zeno I would have seen a clip of him doing the things you say he can do ( specifically destroying space-time and affecting a high end time manipulator).
> 
> No one in DBS has any high level space time attack of note to make that space time hype even worth mentioning they finally have a character with some form of time stop.



Zen'o annihilates the Future Trunks timeline completely to kill of Zamasu, who was in turn breaking through to the main timeline because assimilation plot.

Hit can absorb pieces of time (which is what causes the timestop) and store it in his body to later create constructs with. Said constructs include a personal dimension that runs parallel to the real one but separate enough that someone in one dimension can't touch someone else. He also has a form of shockwave technique that can reach across that gap and strike whatever he wants.

Goku manages to break into the time-stop and later shatter the personal dimension through an massive surge of God Ki.


Other time/space abilities include the angels being able to step back in time without creating a new timeline (which is how it normally works), Black's scythe ripping open space-time, Hakai erasing you from time unless you have a time ring, and Vegeta destroying the RoSaT which has its own space/time.

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## Xhominid (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Zoom like abilities=/= hit ability two the former power isn't some cheap Parlor trick



Jesus dude, get a hold of yourself, how exactly is Hit's ability to not only "skip time" a parlor trick but him being able to store the time he "skipped" into himself to create a personal pocket dimension for him to use freely a parlor trick compared to Zoom's abilities? Hell, they are pretty much in the same tier considering I read up on Zoom's abilities and Zoom only beats out on Hit due to being able to freely control the flow of time vs. Hit only being able to adaptively increase the duration but tenths of seconds.

And Goku utterly obliterated it by powering up the instant he knew exactly what Hit was doing.
And this wasn't even the first time for Space/Time shenanigans in Dragonball. As stated, SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu(no amps whatsoever) was able to scream holes in Space Time to get out of the RoSAT after Piccolo destroyed the entrance. In the Anime, Super Buu with Gotenks and Gohan's power was going to completely collapse the dimension they was in if it wasn't for Vegito stopping that from happening.

And we even have the GoDs and Goku trade blows and attacks that would have destroyed EVERYTHING in their universe, including the World of the Kais and the Afterlife in one fell swoop(and if we use Catalyst's words right, that should definitely fall to Universal+ on the spot for the GoDs and later Goku and Vegeta since Vegeta destroyed the RoSAT completely while he was in it).

And finally as many pointed out, the universal mechanics of Dragonball literally will not allow the scenario you point out. The Future Trunks timeline mainly IS the Prime Timeline  of Universe 7 and the timeline we are following is the alternate tangent. Future Trunk's timeline did not change whatsoever when he gave Goku the medicine or the Cyborgs had a personality shift from their alternate counterparts. In fact, we only found out that the GoDs are the ONLY ONES whose capable of affecting a timeline completely by Hakai'ing someone out of existence(and even that has a countermeasure).

So yeah, Barry really isn't that broken force you are talking about man.

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## Catalyst75 (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> That's not the latest issue. In the latest issue the treadmill broke and Jay pushed Bruce and Barry through, but conveniently you left out the important part as why Barry needed the threadmill for this mini series in the first place because in rebirth 10 years have been stolen from the timeline and it seem no one can get to it . It was made clear when Jay time travelled to help Barry and Manhattan erased Jay before he could
> Have told Barry any of his memories.
> 
> Issue #22 as a retelling of Barry origins who can see through the time line as shown in the scans right after the ones you posted prior to that interestingly at the start of rebirth There's a Wally west feat where blatantly explains he is faster than time itself.
> ...



I've read that issue.  Your analysis and recollection is painfully flawed.

Bruce and Barry used the Treadmill in an attempt to home in on the radiation emanating off of the Button (Dr. Manhattan's radiation signature).  First, Manhattan knocked them into the "Flashpoint" timeline he had kept in existence (_then let go of_) and then to chase down Thawne.  At this point, Thawne was boasting himself to be a living paradox that can never die, as he died twice in the past, one time in an alternate timeline.  Dr. Manhattan literally burnt away half his body and left him weeping that he saw God.

Jay Garrick saved Barry and Bruce by directing them back to their proper time, but he was dragged back into the Speed Force, *because he was in the exact same position as Wally - trapped in the Speed Force without an anchor.*


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> Jesus dude, get a hold of yourself, how exactly is Hit's ability to not only "skip time" a parlor trick but him being able to store the time he "skipped" into himself to create a personal pocket dimension for him to use freely a parlor trick compared to Zoom's abilities? Hell, they are pretty much in the same tier considering I read up on Zoom's abilities and Zoom only beats out on Hit due to being able to freely control the flow of time vs. Hit only being able to adaptively increase the duration but tenths of seconds.
> 
> And Goku utterly obliterated it by powering up the instant he knew exactly what Hit was doing.
> And this wasn't even the first time for Space/Time shenanigans in Dragonball. As stated, SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu(no amps whatsoever) was able to scream holes in Space Time to get out of the RoSAT after Piccolo destroyed the entrance. In the Anime, Super Buu with Gotenks and Gohan's power was going to completely collapse the dimension they was in if it wasn't for Vegito stopping that from happening.
> ...


Hit abilities have been discuss in another thread and it's not like zoom. I've said this like 10 fucking times already Zoom isn't trapped in a pocket dimension he has his own time line that works exactly parallel to the main timeline. Considering it took 5 speedsters to amp Barry up to even vibrate and enter that timeline which he was still struggling to fight zoom, meanwhile Goku Kamehameha Hit ass out his own pocket dimension. Not even in the same ball park here.


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> I've read that issue.  Your analysis and recollection is painfully flawed.
> 
> Bruce and Barry used the Treadmill in an attempt to home in on the radiation emanating off of the Button (Dr. Manhattan's radiation signature).  First, Manhattan knocked them into the "Flashpoint" timeline he had kept in existence (_then let go of_) and then to chase down Thawne.  At this point, Thawne was boasting himself to be a living paradox that can never die, as he died twice in the past, one time in an alternate timeline.  Dr. Manhattan literally burnt away half his body and left him weeping that he saw God.
> 
> Jay Garrick saved Barry and Bruce by directing them back to their proper time, but he was dragged back into the Speed Force, *because he was in the exact same position as Wally - trapped in the Speed Force without an anchor.*


And why exactly does Jay  need an anchor? Who exactly is keeping the memories away from Barry? Remember it took Barry to remember Wally to bring him back. Dr. Manhattan.

They were chasing down Thawne because they did not want Thawn to reach his destination with said button because of unknown consequences.


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## windmace123 (May 22, 2017)

N52 Barry can't travel in time now? Are we literally going to ignore other instances where Barrry has been able to travel in time with pure speed?


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## Catalyst75 (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> And why exactly does Jay  need an anchor? Who exactly is keeping the memories away from Barry? Remember it took Barry to remember Wally to bring him back. Dr. Manhattan.
> 
> They were chasing down Thawne because they did not want Thawn to reach his destination with said button because of unknown consequences.



"Unknown"?

_Thawne's corpse was in the Batcave, and the Button was gone.  _Barry and Bruce went after Thawne because they knew Thawne would be killed outright if he reached his destination.

"Why exactly does Jay need an anchor"?

THAT'S HOW BEING TRAPPED IN THE SPEED FORCE WORKS!   Just like Wally, Jay needs someone he has a strong connection to - a 'lightning rod', so to speak - in order to escape from the Speed Force.  

"Who exactly is keeping the memories away from Barry?"



I cannot believe this.  You read the DC Comics, _*yet you don't even know that?  *_Dr. Manhattan is the guy responsible for the whole Nu52 mess.  He's the one who took away individuals and memories from the lives of everyone in the DC Universe, *cutting out ten whole years of time and history.*


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

Notice not a fucking thing about dimensions, not a fucking thing about stealing time not one shit remotely similiar to hit. He is fucking racing time itself you idiots

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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> "Unknown"?
> 
> _Thawne's corpse was in the Batcave, and the Button was gone.  _Barry and Bruce went after Thawne because they knew Thawne would be killed outright if he reached his destination.
> 
> ...



I literally fucking explain this in the post you quoted and the other prior. Stop lecturing me on things I already pointed out


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## windmace123 (May 22, 2017)

Can we focus on the battle? How does anyone on U7 resist their kinetic energy being stolen from Barry


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## Catalyst75 (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> I literally fucking explain this in the post you quoted and the other prior. Stop lecturing me on things I already pointed out



Yet you still need to question about "unknown consequences" in regards to Thawne *when they have his freaking corpse.*

Looking back at those posts, isn't it a bit hypocritical of you to accuse me of lecturing when you are setting yourself up as the lecturer?

I say that because I already know those points, and arguably understand them better than you do.



Huey Freeman said:


> Notice not a fucking thing about dimensions, not a fucking thing about stealing time not one shit remotely similiar to hit. He is fucking racing time itself you idiots



Why do I keep on finding people who don't even understand the context of the scans they post?

Nothing Jay says there is in relation to Barry Allen, or even that it is a "natural ability" of Zoom.  Hell, Jay Garrick isn't even talking about Eobard Thawne in that scan; _*he's talking about Hunter Zolomon.
*_
Eobard Thawne taps into his own version of the Speed Force; Hunter Zolomon is based on manipulating his own relative time.  The scans you posted talk about a "Reverse Flash" who operates in a fundamentally different manner from his predecessor and the Flash.


_*
*_


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Yet you still need to question about "unknown consequences" in regards to Thawne *when they have his freaking corpse.*
> 
> Looking back at those posts, isn't it a bit hypocritical of you to accuse me of lecturing when you are setting yourself up as the lecturer?
> 
> I say that because I already know those points, and arguably understand them better than you do.



You really don't and allow me to explain below


> Why do I keep on finding people who don't even understand the context of the scans they post?
> 
> Nothing Jay says there is in relation to Barry Allen, or even that it is a "natural ability" of Zoom.  Hell, Jay Garrick isn't even talking about Eobard Thawne in that scan; _*he's talking about Hunter Zolomon.
> *_
> ...


since you just want to but in this has nothing to do with Hunter Zolomon at all in Rebirth.
This is explaining the fact that Barry can manipulate his own timeline in the same manner as zoom. I'm explaining how Zoom powers work relative to hit.
Thanks for playing


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## Catalyst75 (May 22, 2017)

windmace123 said:


> Can we focus on the battle? How does anyone on U7 resist their kinetic energy being stolen from Barry



Because trying to claim that Barry can just steal all the kinetic energy from individuals who can destroy an entire Universe gives us a "No Limits Fallacy".  And we're talking about guys who can steal _*Superman's speed*_.



Huey Freeman said:


> since you just want to but in this has nothing to do with Hunter Zolomon at all in Rebirth.
> This is explaining the fact that Barry can manipulate his own timeline in the same manner as zoom. I'm explaining how Zoom powers work relative to hit.



You use scans that talk about Hunter specifically.  Hunter's the only one that Jay was saying manipulates his own timeline, not any of the Flashes (NOTE: the Flash there also happened to be Wally West, not Barry).


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Because trying to claim that Barry can just steal all the kinetic energy from individuals who can destroy an entire Universe gives us a "No Limits Fallacy".  And we're talking about guys who can steal _*Superman's speed*_.
> 
> 
> 
> You use scans that talk about Hunter specifically.  Hunter's the only one that Jay was saying manipulates his own timeline, not any of the Flashes (NOTE: the Flash there also happened to be Wally West, not Barry).


Sigh....

Ignore for a second the era of the scan, and just take the context. Barry has shown he can manipulate his timeline like zoom can.

This is the only known full explanation of that ability which is why I used it.

I'm not saying any of those flashes can do it in that era.


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Because trying to claim that Barry can just steal all the kinetic energy from individuals who can destroy an entire Universe gives us a "No Limits Fallacy".  And we're talking about guys who can steal _*Superman's speed*_.
> 
> 
> 
> You use scans that talk about Hunter specifically.  Hunter's the only one that Jay was saying manipulates his own timeline, not any of the Flashes (NOTE: the Flash there also happened to be Wally West, not Barry).


Also Kinetic energy=/= Kai energy so Barry isn't stealing their Kai energy he is stealing their momentum which he is fully capable of.


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## Catalyst75 (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Sigh....
> 
> Ignore for a second the era of the scan, and just take the context. Barry has shown he can manipulate his timeline like zoom can.
> 
> This is the only known full explanation of that ability which is why I used it.



You mean aside from the fact that Hunter Zolomon is specifically pointed out as *not drawing on the Speed Force?* 

The most we know Barry can do is "speed up time"; _*he cannot freely manipulate time the way Hunter Zolomon can.*_ 



Huey Freeman said:


> Also Kinetic energy=/= Ki energy so Barry isn't stealing their Ki energy he is stealing their momentum which he is fully capable of.



Ki is what gives Dragon Ball characters their feats of strength and speed in the first place.  In a hypothetical sense, _Ki energy converts to kinetic energy _when Dragon Ball characters are fighting, just as the Speed Force translates to kinetic energy for the Flashes.


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## Stermor (May 22, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> idk if I buy this argument, what's more important here, the way the universe functions in DB or the way the person's abilities are stated to function?
> 
> could be either I suppose, perhaps the fact that time doesn't work that way in DB implies some manner of causality fucker resistance but idk if there's enough evidence for such an assertion so I'd probably lean with the way the opponent's abilities are used



the thing is wouldn't it be zeno who forces time travel to work like that though? pretty much he's the dude supposedly in control of everything. 

that said flash is not surviving the destruction of a multiverse so it seems kinda mood..


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## windmace123 (May 22, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Dragon Ball Multiverse is actually protected from such things.  Any changes made to the past just creates a new timeline with no effects on the old one.  The Androids Saga and Future Trunks Saga were built on that concept.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



DC Universe's have a much larger proven size than a DB universe (or macroverse, whatever you want to consider universe 7)


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## windmace123 (May 22, 2017)

DC universe is at least 100 trillion light years in diameter


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## Catalyst75 (May 22, 2017)

You do realize that comic writers often have no sense of scale, yes? 

There are bound to be contradicting statements, but of course you're reaching for the highest-end outlier you can find.


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## SSBMonado (May 22, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Ki is what gives Dragon Ball characters their feats of strength and speed in the first place.  In a hypothetical sense, _Ki energy converts to kinetic energy _when Dragon Ball characters are fighting, just as the Speed Force translates to kinetic energy for the Flashes.


So if the Flash speed steals somebody, he'd only be able to steal the energy they are using at that moment, meaning their remaining ki would re-energize/re-animate them again?


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## windmace123 (May 22, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> You do realize that comic writers often have no sense of scale, yes?
> 
> There are bound to be contradicting statements, but of course you're reaching for the highest-end outlier you can find.



People are still doing this thing with Dragonball's cosmology?
 if you're giving the DB cosmology such special attention, you wouldn't have any problem doing the same for other continuities.
Marvel and DC being classic examples, of course.

We two cases of a DC universe being corroborated to be one hundred trillion light years across, both during the Our Worlds at War event, and secondly by a Guardian of the Universe.

And by all means, show a scan that contradicts this statement.


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> So if the Flash speed steals somebody, he'd only be able to steal the energy they are using at that moment, meaning their remaining ki would re-energize/re-animate them again?





Catalyst75 said:


> You mean aside from the fact that Hunter Zolomon is specifically pointed out as *not drawing on the Speed Force?*
> 
> The most we know Barry can do is "speed up time"; _*he cannot freely manipulate time the way Hunter Zolomon can.*_
> 
> ...


Speed force controls kinetic energy which is why Flash has absolute control over it. That's flash 101.

No it's not a nolimit fallacy. 

Any energy Goku exerts he only makes Flash faster.


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## Catalyst75 (May 22, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> So if the Flash speed steals somebody, he'd only be able to steal the energy they are using at that moment, meaning their remaining ki would re-energize/re-animate them again?



Hypothetically, yes, assuming the source of their kinetic energy is not purely physical (Inertia owed his super-speed to Velocity 9 during the "One Year Later" period, when Wally West turned him into a motionless statue by stealing his kinetic energy).


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Hypothetically, yes, assuming the source of their kinetic energy is not purely physical (Inertia owed his super-speed to Velocity 9 during the "One Year Later" period, when Wally West turned him into a motionless statue by stealing his kinetic energy).


How exactly can you move and fight inflicting physical blows without it being kinetic energy? Do you have a scan because you sound unsure and purely making this up.


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## Catalyst75 (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> How exactly can you move and fight inflicting physical blows without it being kinetic energy? Do you have a scan because you sound unsure and purely making this up.



Fielding a hypothesis is better than appealing to a "no limits fallacy".

Z Fighters owe their strength and speed to the level of Ki they possess, meaning their life force.  And they can control the level of Ki they use.


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## SSBMonado (May 22, 2017)

The way I understand it is that Wally steals people's kinetic energy, but not the source of their kinetic energy. So if a DB character powers up and then Wally speed steals them, the ki they used to power up would be stolen, but the unused part of their Ki pool would remain and then proceed to re-animate the character.

That's rather theoretical, so getting the input of some knowledgeable member would be nice, preferably of somebody who doesn't have DC's logo branded on their ass

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Fielding a hypothesis is better than appealing to a "no limits fallacy".
> 
> Z Fighters owe their strength and speed to the level of Ki they possess, meaning their life force.  And they can control the level of Ki they use.


Just because a verse has no counter to it translate to a no limit fallacy. I can think of several characters off the bat in other verses who can counter it.  You are basically whining at the fact you know they have no answer.

Flash is essentially Juggernaut when it comes to kinetic energy. A series Juggs channeling his powers no one is going to move him. Like wise if you are demonstrating kinetic energy it can be stolen by the flash and the cosmic racers proves there isn't an upper limit to his ability. 

So the more ki the use to create kinetic motion the more Flash steals.


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## windmace123 (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Just because a verse has no counter to it translate to a no limit fallacy. I can think of several characters off the bat in other verses who can counter it.  You are basically whining at the fact you know they have no answer.
> 
> Flash is essentially Juggernaut when it comes to kinetic energy. A series Juggs channeling his powers no one is going to move him. Like wise if you are demonstrating kinetic energy it can be stolen by the flash and the cosmic racers proves there isn't an upper limit to his ability.
> 
> So the more ki the use to create kinetic motion the more Flash steals.



For example Gods in DBZ dont have energy aborption and manipulation of energy in their environment, Eternals do,Thanos even more so. 

Thanos and Warlock are both natural energy manipulators and absorbers, in general. Kinetic is a natural form of energy in the universe.


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## Catalyst75 (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Flash is essentially Juggernaut when it comes to kinetic energy. A series Juggs channeling his powers no one is going to move him. Like wise if you are demonstrating kinetic energy it can be stolen by the flash and the cosmic racers proves there isn't an upper limit to his ability.



Huey, the point of the Juggernaut is not that he "cannot be moved", *but that he cannot be stopped.  *Yet there are plenty of times where the deed has been done to Juggernaut in comics.

The same goes for Flash, and the no-limits fallacy you are arguing for the Flash is _*precisely *_because you claim he has "no upper limits", despite all the times in comic book history that the Flash has been beaten.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Huey, the point of the Juggernaut is not that he "cannot be moved", *but that he cannot be stopped.  *Yet there are plenty of times where the deed has been done to Juggernaut in comics.
> 
> The same goes for Flash, and the no-limits fallacy you are arguing for the Flash is _*precisely *_because you claim he has "no upper limits", despite all the times in comic book history that the Flash has been beaten.


Much like the Flash, Superman and many other high tiers there are low ends and outliers and Juggs is no exception but his High ends don't contradict what I'm saying so that argument is moot. Like Goku getting shot in the chest with a hand gun . Doesn't dismiss my example of Juggs about kinetic energy,

No upper limits to his ability =/= he can't be beaten I even stated that in that same post for Christ sake that there are people who can counter him, you are side stepping my main point what does DBS has to counter it? The verse is mainly about physicals and Kai energy. One or two characters may have some form of hax that gets overblown but that's about it.

Ironically you are playing this no limit fallacy game with "Kai will save him from this hax and that hax" 

Reason why it's a no limit fallacy because  the speed force ( Flash's power source) that's the simple answer. Through out the history of the Flash the speed force has made Flash do incredible feats like IMP a crack in the AM, or outrun death itself to the end of time.


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## Catalyst75 (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> The verse is mainly about physicals and Kai energy. One or two characters may have some form of hax that gets overblown but that's about it.
> 
> Ironically you are playing this no limit fallacy game with "Kai will save him from this hax and that hax"



It's "Ki energy", and it seems the point I originally made keeps on going right over your head:  *Barry Allen needs to show proof that he can steal the kinetic energy from someone who is at Universe-level.
*
However, Barry Allen has not shown the means to do that to a being of that level, yet you are depending on "Speed Force hax" as a defense to your argument.


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## windmace123 (May 22, 2017)

Probably irrelevant but can also be applied to N52 since N52 is technically "Post Crisis" as of now lol
Was able to move  a solar system which is crazy strength. There wasn't much info on how much they weigh but this is just to show his strength is incredibly good.


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> It's "Ki energy", and it seems the point I originally made keeps on going right over your head:  *Barry Allen needs to show proof that he can steal the kinetic energy from someone who is at Universe-level.
> *
> However, Barry Allen has not shown the means to do that to a being of that level, yet you are depending on "Speed Force hax" as a defense to your argument.


Nice try but just because Goku is at universal level at his outmost destructive power means he is exerting universal level kinetic motion and since Flashes high end speed absolutely shits on Goku speed wise (meaning Flash has exterted incredible amounts of kinetic motion) so that point is laughable.

Secondly I stated Goku Kai won't be stolen just his kinetic energy so keep digging ways and corners to try wank your way around hax.

I can show you a fight of Barry putting in work on spectre if you'd like. You really think Flash's power level is clear cut despite his guy having incredible hax. And no I am not claiming Flash is multiversal.


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## Catalyst75 (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Nice try but just because Goku is at universal level at his outmost destructive power means he is exerting universal level kinetic motion and since Flashes high end speed absolutely shits on Goku speed wise (meaning Flash has exterted incredible amounts of kinetic motion) so that point is laughable.



Do you mean Wally West, who had to draw on the kinetic energy of all the people running on Earth (and other speedsters), and the *entire planet of *Kwyzz, filled with light-speed beings, and Krakkl's own energy?

That basically amounts to extreme levels of _external assistance_ for that particular feat.  On his own, Wally doesn't come close to that level of speed, and he's generally considered _*THE FASTEST*_ of all the Flashes.


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Do you mean Wally West, who had to draw on the kinetic energy of all the people running on Earth (and other speedsters), and the *entire planet of *Kwyzz, filled with light-speed beings, and Krakkl's own energy?
> 
> That basically amounts to extreme levels of _external assistance_ for that particular feat.  On his own, Wally doesn't come close to that level of speed, and he's generally considered _*THE FASTEST*_ of all the Flashes.


No it doesn't he uses his powers via the speed force to  speed steal, which is an ability of a flash, to take that speed. He then uses that speed on top of his speed to beat instaneous teleportation.
That's him taking their speed don't confuse it with abilities like Spirit bomb where the user needs to ask for the power to be given to him.

He can do the same to again and again.


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## windmace123 (May 22, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Do you mean Wally West, who had to draw on the kinetic energy of all the people running on Earth (and other speedsters), and the *entire planet of *Kwyzz, filled with light-speed beings, and Krakkl's own energy?
> 
> That basically amounts to extreme levels of _external assistance_ for that particular feat.  On his own, Wally doesn't come close to that level of speed, and he's generally considered _*THE FASTEST*_ of all the Flashes.



While he did do the initial feat with assistance, he later on achieves the same speed (Trans time velocity) solo, such as during Final Crisis and The Black Flash Saga.


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## windmace123 (May 22, 2017)

Here he regains his powers



Here, he uses Speed Force, not anyone else's speed, to break the Time Barrier and run out of the space time continuum.


We even see the same background as the teleporting feat


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## windmace123 (May 22, 2017)

Bear in mind, in that same issue Wally outran the Big Bang, and the Big Crunch UNASSISTED


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

windmace123 said:


> Bear in mind, in that same issue Wally outran the Big Bang, and the Big Crunch UNASSISTED


Rebirth he mentions this as well

Reactions: Like 1


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## windmace123 (May 22, 2017)

Wally alone has outran the universes life span, the entirety of time from beginning to end in mere moments


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## Catalyst75 (May 22, 2017)

First it was Tonathan100 and Superman, now it is Huey Freeman, windmace123 and the Flash.  And it also happens whenever Dragon Ball is involved.

And we missed our opportunity to set these guys against each other when we banned Tonathan100.


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## windmace123 (May 22, 2017)

Unless DBS Gods has a speed feat that exceeds Wally outrunning both the Big Bang and Big Crunch in mere moments...


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> First it was Tonathan100 and Superman, now it is Huey Freeman, windmace123 and the Flash.  And it also happens whenever Dragon Ball is involved.
> 
> And we missed our opportunity to set these guys against each other when we banned Tonathan100.


No the difference here no one here is saying Wally will beat Goku in physical match because he won't. Wally beats him in Speed and Hax which is universally agreed around here.

DBS fanboys just hear Goku is universal and thing he can take on any universal from any verse ignoring that Goku has no counters to a lot of hax. That's a fact.


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## The Runner (May 22, 2017)

windmace123 said:


> Probably irrelevant but can also be applied to N52 since N52 is technically "Post Crisis" as of now lol
> Was able to move  a solar system which is crazy strength. There wasn't much info on how much they weigh but this is just to show his strength is incredibly good.


Nah.

Solar System was constantly expanding.

It wasn't even the size of house when Supes started moving it.

And even then, Solar System scale destruction means jack shit when there is a universal level shit


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## saint rider 890 (May 22, 2017)

windmace123 said:


> Unless DBS Gods has a speed feat that exceeds Wally outrunning both the Big Bang and Big Crunch in mere moments...



Then what make you think this is Good Match ? This is spite match , you idiot .

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Blocky (May 22, 2017)

The irony is real here


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## Nep Heart (May 22, 2017)

Saint Rider always has that paranoia complex whenever DBS is on the receiving end of a stomp. Never does this when any other 'verse or character is getting stomped, just exclusively DBS to the point of having a panic attack at times when this occurs. Totally not playing favoritism.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Toaa (May 22, 2017)

But in the end what will flash do to zeno?


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## windmace123 (May 22, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Nah.
> 
> Solar System was constantly expanding.
> 
> ...



Where? (talking about the solar system feat)


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

Toaa said:


> But in the end what will flash do to zeno?


Zeno isn't in the original op


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## tonpa (May 22, 2017)

Base flash would get blitz before he even know what's coming. It takes awhile for him to reach B.S. speeds.


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

tonpa said:


> Base flash would get blitz before he even know what's coming. It takes awhile for him to reach B.S. speeds.


Care to show me a scan of flash needing a while to reach let's say light speed for example?


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## Catalyst75 (May 22, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> No the difference here no one here is saying Wally will beat Goku in physical match because he won't. Wally beats him in Speed and Hax which is universally agreed around here.
> 
> DBS fanboys just hear Goku is universal and thing he can take on any universal from any verse ignoring that Goku has no counters to a lot of hax. That's a fact.



Goku powered his way through a time-stop technique that allows Hit to "skip time", and store said time in another dimension.

And as someone else pointed out, Flash still needs time to get up to top speed (and part of me wonders whether time travel can even be equalized with normal speed feats).


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## Huey Freeman (May 22, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Goku powered his way through a time-stop technique that allows Hit to "skip time", and store said time in another dimension.
> 
> And as someone else pointed out, Flash still needs time to get up to top speed (and part of me wonders whether time travel can even be equalized with normal speed feats).


Why do you guys keep using hit as an example and trying to compare it to someone who has shown to manipulate time at a much higher level with this abc logic? 

I asked him the same question I'll ask you now. Show me a scan where flash needs adequate time to reach his top speed, a time frame where Goku can take advantage. This will be laughable but I'll entertain the thought.


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## Xhominid (May 23, 2017)

For fuck's sake, is this composite Flash or New 52 Flash? Pick one and fucking stick to it.

Barry does not have the same feats as Wally and vice versa.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## The Runner (May 23, 2017)

New 52 Barry is essentially Post-Crisis Barry without the experience

So it's sketchy whether or not he scales to Wally in his prime.

However he is faster than New 52 Clark/Superman Red, who flew at hundreds of Billions of times faster than light, and he scales to Green Lantern whom had almost his entire history untouched by the reboot/retcon. So at best he's in the trillions if we are being generous 

He also has his own impressive stuff like BFR'ing Grodd to the speedforce where he gets a huge amp in speed

Aside from that I'm not sure if Newb 52 Barry ever stole Speed


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## Blαck (May 23, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> New 52 Barry is essentially Post-Crisis Barry without the experience
> 
> So it's sketchy whether or not he scales to Wally in his prime.
> 
> ...


Nu52 Barry stole Daniel west speed when he was reverse flash.


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## The Runner (May 23, 2017)

Blαck said:


> Nu52 Barry stole Daniel west speed when he was reverse flash.


 well that seals that point


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## SSBMonado (May 23, 2017)

About that NLF dealy:
- Who is the strongest character Nu52 Flash has stolen speed from?
- Have there been stronger speedforce users who have speed-stolen stronger characters?

Also, conceptually speaking, would he be able to speed steal 17, 18 and Buu? All 3 of them have practically infinite stamina and Ki, meaning speed stealing should only really make them feel winded for a moment.


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## Deer Lord (May 23, 2017)

I still don't see how Flash is living a universe exploding in his face


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## TobiSan (May 23, 2017)

Blαck said:


> Nu52 Barry stole Daniel west speed when he was reverse flash.



Was it specifically implied that Barry stole his speed? I remember Barry stating that he was able to connect to Daniel's speed and channel his powers when his guard was down. Not to mention Barry said he has no idea how he did it.


OT: Barry has a lot of hax abilities that he has only used once and then he is pretty clueless about them.

1. His instincts automatically phased a bullet in a femtosecond - Only did it once, hasn't worked since.
2. He reversed Daniel Wests powers, somehow connected to them through Speed Force - Only did it once, has no idea how to do it again.
3. Speed up time to fight Thawne who was slowing up time, in essence had unlimited speed - Only did it once, Doesn't know how to do it again.
4. He was able to Speed Force dump Gorilla Grodd from distance - Has never done it since then and seems like he doesn't even know how.

He can't take speed away from people, he can take Speed Force powers away, but he doesn't because the person will die in process unless he has help from other speedsters.


Wally West on the other hand had the complete control over kinetic energy, making molecules stop altogether when he speed stole.


New 52 Barry is better than New52 Superman in combat speed, but not in travel speed. Superman has better travel speed feats. I don't see New 52 Barry being a factor in this fight.


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## Blαck (May 23, 2017)

TobiSan said:


> Was it specifically implied that Barry stole his speed? I remember Barry stating that he was able to connect to Daniel's speed and channel his powers when his guard was down. Not to mention Barry said he has no idea how he did it.



I'm gonna go back and check shortly. 


> OT: Barry has a lot of hax abilities that he has only used once and then he is pretty clueless about them.
> 
> 1. His instincts automatically phased a bullet in a femtosecond - Only did it once, hasn't worked since.
> 2. He reversed Daniel Wests powers, somehow connected to them through Speed Force - Only did it once, has no idea how to do it again.
> ...



I chalk it up to Flash writers just doing random shit, though Barry did actually figure out how to consciously speed up his timeline in the thawne fight(iirc) he only did it once because rebirth happened shortly after and messed things up.


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## SSBMonado (May 23, 2017)

Since some people mentioned that flash has a sort of ramp-up time for his speed, what would happen if Team U7 attempted to nuke the JL the instant the fight started (which is precisely what they would do with a BL mindset)? Would he be able to escape?

Also, can I get confirmation that Flash really is the only relevant part of the JL? Obviously Aquaman, Cyborg and Bats aren't doing shit here, but what about Green Lantern, Wonder Woman and Supes?


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## Blαck (May 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Since some people mentioned that flash has a sort of ramp-up time for his speed, what would happen if Team U7 attempted to nuke the JL the instant the fight started (which is precisely what they would do with a BL mindset)? Would he be able to escape?
> 
> Also, can I get confirmation that Flash really is the only relevant part of the JL? Obviously Aquaman, Cyborg and Bats aren't doing shit here, but what about Green Lantern, Wonder Woman and Supes?


depends on the Lantern, Kyle could pull a miracle out of his ass given the right circumstances. Although that's not to say Hal hasn't had his moments, can't think of any tho


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## Cooler (May 23, 2017)

Flash is like a massive NLF around here. 

The kinetic energy in a punch that can destroy a universe is just insane. Unless Flash has feats absorbing that much force he gets rekt.


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## TobiSan (May 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Since some people mentioned that flash has a sort of ramp-up time for his speed, what would happen if Team U7 attempted to nuke the JL the instant the fight started (which is precisely what they would do with a BL mindset)? Would he be able to escape?
> 
> Also, can I get confirmation that Flash really is the only relevant part of the JL? Obviously Aquaman, Cyborg and Bats aren't doing shit here, but what about Green Lantern, Wonder Woman and Supes?




Both New 52 and Pre 52 Barry aren't even remotely relevant to current Dragonball characters. Barry is just getting hard wanked in this thread.

New 52 Barry is recently getting hard wanked all over the internet, more than Pre 52 Wally West ever was. I blame the TV show.

New 52 Barry is also way more inconsistent than Pre 52 Wally ever was. Writers have no idea what they want Barry to be or what he can do.


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## Huey Freeman (May 23, 2017)

Cooler said:


> Flash is like a massive NLF around here.
> 
> The kinetic energy in a punch that can destroy a universe is just insane. Unless Flash has feats absorbing that much force he gets rekt.



How much kinetic energy do you think it takes to run through a Big Bang, or outrun time itself or instant teleportation?

Goku has zero feats on his own where his punches instantly destroy a universe. I recognize he is universal level but that's not from casual punches.


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## Huey Freeman (May 23, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> For fuck's sake, is this composite Flash or New 52 Flash? Pick one and fucking stick to it.
> 
> Barry does not have the same feats as Wally and vice versa.


Convergence merged post crisis/New 52 timelines as a continuity hence the rebirth soft reboot.
They have exact same abilities


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## Cooler (May 23, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> How much kinetic energy do you think it takes to run through a Big Bang, or outrun time itself or instant teleportation?
> 
> Goku has zero feats on his own where his punches instantly destroy a universe. I recognize he is universal level but that's not from casual punches.




I won't say he can one shot the universe but obviously he can generate an appreciable fraction of that energy. 

Not sure your examples really relate to speed stealing - or kinetic energy stealing? But regardless running through the big bang is obviously not as impressive as if Barry was generating big bang levels of energy himself. Considering how long it took for the universe to expand from the BB I would hazard a guess that the clashes from Beerus/Goku had considerably more power behind them.

Outrunning time etc...are nice feats. But I don't see how they relate to taking at least multi galaxy crushing levels of kinetic energy? Universe level players are just above the Flash's paygrade unless you have actual relevant feats to demonstrate.


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## Nighty the Mighty (May 23, 2017)

Flash doesn't have to speed steal someone's entire energy pool because speed =/= energy in fiction, especially at velocities above LS.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## The Runner (May 23, 2017)

I'm not even sure Barry can put up a fight tho. He's outnumbered by characters that are far too powerful and far too numerous to take out all at once


Huey Freeman said:


> How much kinetic energy do you think it takes to run through a Big Bang, or outrun time itself or instant teleportation?


That was Wally tho, not Newb 52 Barry


Huey Freeman said:


> Convergence merged post crisis/New 52 timelines as a continuity hence the rebirth soft reboot.
> They have exact same abilities


not really. Rebirth implied that they are all the same characters (except Superman) and that they have 10 years taken away from them. Barry had his entire history with Kid Flash taken away until that point. So I doubt he scales to Wally in his prime


TobiSan said:


> New 52 Barry is better than New52 Superman in combat speed, but not in travel speed. Superman has better travel speed feats. I don't see New 52 Barry being a factor in this fight.


Err, no.

Barry is just generally faster. It was made perfectly clear at the start of the New 52. When both were flying/running away from Darkseids omega beams, it was Clark who got hit.


SSBMonado said:


> - Have there been stronger speedforce users who have speed-stolen stronger characters?


Jay Garrick stole speed from Superman.

So yeah, I'd say so. It's not about strength


SSBMonado said:


> *but what about Green Lantern*, Wonder Woman and Supes?


He's got the speed down, and the hax too

But I'm not sure if the others have the speed for it


Huey Freeman said:


> . Strictly speed and Hax that Flash still has the advantage over.


Not sure about speed. How fast are Goku and Vegeta?

Do they still not scale to Whis and Vados' speed feats? @xenos5 @Cooler @God Movement


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## Huey Freeman (May 23, 2017)

Cooler said:


> I won't say he can one shot the universe but obviously he can generate an appreciable fraction of that energy.
> 
> Not sure your examples really relate to speed stealing - or kinetic energy stealing? But regardless running through the big bang is obviously not as impressive as if Barry was generating big bang levels of energy himself. Considering how long it took for the universe to expand from the BB I would hazard a guess that the clashes from Beerus/Goku had considerably more power behind them.
> 
> Outrunning time etc...are nice feats. But I don't see how they relate to taking at least multi galaxy crushing levels of kinetic energy? Universe level players are just above the Flash's paygrade unless you have actual relevant feats to demonstrate.



I know that feat you are showing but that's a resonating wave not an instantaneous level of destruction. 

My point to the first example is the high speed the flash normally exert will exert incredible amount of kinetic energy or motion as well showing he can handle it. I think you guys are confusing kinetic energy with destructive output.  
Flash isn't absorbing the energy of end result of a punch (power), he is absorbing the motion it took move his hand for it or speed.


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## Huey Freeman (May 23, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> I'm not even sure Barry can put up a fight tho. He's outnumbered by characters that are far too powerful and far too numerous to take out all at once
> 
> That was Wally tho, not Newb 52 Barry
> 
> ...


I say speed because Barry still operate in the smallest fractions of a seconds (time perception or powers) so he will be first to react always while Goku is still FTL isn't on that level of reactions as of yet.


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## Cooler (May 23, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> I know that feat you are showing but that's a resonating wave not an instantaneous level of destruction.
> 
> My point to the first example is the high speed the flash normally exert will exert incredible amount of kinetic energy or motion as well showing he can handle it. I think you guys are confusing kinetic energy with destructive output.
> Flash isn't absorbing the energy of end result of a punch (power), he is absorbing the motion it took move his hand for it or speed.



A punch delivers kinetic energy though. So if their punches are capable of busting a universe - even if only through sustained clashes - then they're delivering that amount of kinetic energy through their fists. The motion of them moving their hands is carrying more kinetic energy than the Flash has even shown capable of handling. 

The end result of the punch can't have more energy than the motion it took to make it.


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## Huey Freeman (May 23, 2017)

Cooler said:


> A punch delivers kinetic energy though. So if their punches are capable of busting a universe - even if only through sustained clashes - then they're delivering that amount of kinetic energy through their fists. The motion of them moving their hands is carrying more kinetic energy than the Flash has even shown capable of handling.
> 
> The end result of the punch can't have more energy than the motion it took to make it.


Maybe i am wording this wrong kinetic motion not kinetic Energy.

Not exactly a car traveling 50 mph ( kinetic motion) isn't the same as he he kinetic energy of it colliding head first. 

Goku as far as I know physically without the use of kai energy is throwing those level of destructive output. But he channels his energy in his attacks.


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## Cooler (May 23, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Maybe i am wording this wrong kinetic motion not kinetic Energy.
> 
> Not exactly a car traveling 50 mph ( kinetic motion) isn't the same as he he kinetic energy of it colliding head first.
> 
> Goku as far as I know physically without the use of kai energy is throwing those level of destructive output. But he channels his energy in his attacks.



Kinetic energy is the result of motion. Not sure what you're saying here man? 

Whether the car crashes or doesn't the kinetic energy is the same. 

Goku is as physically strong as the amount of ki he has/is using. If he's at max power than as of DBS he has the striking power to destroy the universe. Whatever you want to call it unless Flash has the feats to back up absorbing that amount kinetic 'whatever' it's a NLF.


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## SSBMonado (May 23, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> I say speed because Barry still operate in the smallest fractions of a seconds (time perception or powers) so he will be first to react always while Goku is still FTL isn't on that level of reactions as of yet.


Is this about the Attosecond thing (Flash claiming that he can perceive events that last less than an attosecond)?


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## Huey Freeman (May 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Is this about the Attosecond thing (Flash claiming that he can perceive events that last less than an attosecond)?


New 52 is degraded down to a femtosecond.


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## Huey Freeman (May 23, 2017)

Cooler said:


> Kinetic energy is the result of motion. Not sure what you're saying here man?
> 
> Whether the car crashes or doesn't the kinetic energy is the same.
> 
> Goku is as physically strong as the amount of ki he has/is using. If he's at max power than as of DBS he has the striking power to destroy the universe. Whatever you want to call it unless Flash has the feats to back up absorbing that amount kinetic 'whatever' it's a NLF.



He absorbing the speed of the punch to put it simple motion not the energy of the force.


It's not a NLF it is beatable it's just that Goku doesn't have an answer.


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## Cooler (May 23, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> He absorbing the speed of the punch to put it simple motion not the energy of the force.
> 
> 
> It's not a NLF it is beatable it's just that Goku doesn't have an answer.



It's a no limits fallacy because you're saying he steal can any amount of motion no matter how vast. 



Here is a Flash saying that speed steal is taking kinetic energy. Do you have a scan where he says something different? Because otherwise I'm going to need a feat of Barry stealing universe shattering levels of kinetic energy.


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## Huey Freeman (May 23, 2017)

Cooler said:


> It's a no limits fallacy because you're saying he steal can any amount of motion no matter how vast.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a Flash saying that speed steal is taking kinetic energy. Do you have a scan where he says something different? Because otherwise I'm going to need a feat of Barry stealing universe shattering levels of kinetic energy.


Yeah but your argument is flawed because as another poster pointed out speed of his punch and the power isn't the same.


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## SSBMonado (May 23, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> New 52 is degraded down to a femtosecond.


A Femtosecond is 1×10^-15  seconds. Sure that sounds fast, but if there's a dude who is in the trillions of times FTL (which DBS top tiers are), standing 10 meter away from you and throwing a blast at you, you'd only have 3x10^-20 seconds before you get atomized.
^and that is with somebody who is exactly 1 trillion times FTL, which I'm fairly sure DBS is far above of

If femtosecond reactions are the best Flash got, then he's a complete non-factor. The saiyans and humans may need to spend some time powering up, but 17 and 18 only need to raise their hand and fire.


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## Cooler (May 23, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Yeah but your argument is flawed because as another poster pointed out speed of his punch and the power isn't the same.



The speed of his punch is irrelevant. What's important is the kinetic energy. Flash ain't dealing with that.


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## Huey Freeman (May 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> A Femtosecond is 1×10^-15  seconds. Sure that sounds fast, but if there's a dude who is in the trillions of times FTL (which DBS top tiers are), standing 10 meter away from you and throwing a blast at you, you'd only have 3x10^-20 seconds before you get atomized.
> ^and that is with somebody who is exactly 1 trillion times FTL, which I'm fairly sure DBS is far above of
> 
> If femtosecond reactions are the best Flash got, then he's a complete non-factor. The saiyans and humans may need to spend some time powering up, but 17 and 18 only need to raise their hand and fire.


Your thinking of it wrong. Yes when Goku moves at MFTL his reactions are sharper in terms of time to match his speed.

But standing still Goku still observe a moment second by second. That's not the case for Barry. Standing still a single moment for him is a femtosecond.

So if both were in a race Barry would react within a femtosecond of the gun going off while Goku will react within the normal time frame. 

On a mathematical level v=d/t, Barry's t would be in small fractional increments thus he is covering the distance faster.

Superman explained this phenomenon in the past when he was at a restaurant and he sped up hos brain function to allow his senses to get a slight glimpse into how Wally ( flash at the time) was observing the world while sitting down causally and eating.


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## Huey Freeman (May 23, 2017)

Cooler said:


> The speed of his punch is irrelevant. What's important is the kinetic energy. Flash ain't dealing with that.


Speed is relevant because that's what Flash is taking away. He is making sure you can't swing your hand to throw those universal punches. You can't swing of your speed is 0


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## Cooler (May 23, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Speed is relevant because that's what Flash is taking away. He is making sure you can't swing your hand to throw those universal punches. You can't swing of your speed is 0



In the scan he says kinetic energy not speed.


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## Huey Freeman (May 23, 2017)

Cooler said:


> In the scan he says kinetic energy not speed.


Yes but he means the momentum. In the cosmic racers he asked the world to start running at top speed before he speed steal because he wanted to take as much speed as possible.


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## SSBMonado (May 23, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Your thinking of it wrong. Yes when Goku moves at MFTL his reactions are sharper in terms of time to match his speed.
> 
> But standing still Goku still observe a moment second by second. That's not the case for Barry. Standing still a single moment for him is a femtosecond.
> 
> ...


That doesn't make a lick of sense. When Goku or any other character on his level is combat ready, he obviously perceives events at MFTL speeds. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to react to his opponent's attacks. That is literally what we call reaction speed.

The only difference between Goku and Flash you are implying here is that Flash's perception is permanently at its height, while Goku only speeds up his perception when he is about to engage in combat.



> On a mathematical level v=d/t, Barry's t would be in small fractional increments thus he is covering the distance faster.


Actually he wouldn't be covering any distance at all, because 17 would have splattered him all over the 4th wall before he could even start moving. The attack would be flying at him at upwards of 10.000 times the speed he is supposedly able to react at. So actually, screw him being hit before he can start moving. He'd be hit before he can process the _thought_ of moving.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Huey Freeman (May 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> That doesn't make a lick of sense. When Goku or any other character on his level is combat ready, he obviously perceives events at MFTL speeds. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to react to his opponent's attacks. That is literally what we call reaction speed.
> 
> The only difference between Goku and Flash you are implying here is that Flash's perception is permanently at its height, while Goku only speeds up his perception when he is about to engage in combat.



It makes sense, because every flash series makes it a point that Flash "time perception" is far different from the rest of world including speedsters.

Battle awareness and reactions has little to do with time perception. Goku can sense his opponents and him doing so has little to do with his time perception.

When you are attacking at full speed you're covering the distance in a much smaller time frame relative to the standard time perception.

The standard time perception is what we are talking about here. In Flash cases he is not only moving fast but the world around is also naturally slow because he his living life within the smallest fractions of a second. 

As I explain this is most writers make it an point to show how Flash put in effort to  talk and communicate with the people around him.


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## SSBMonado (May 23, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> It makes sense, because every flash series makes it a point that Flash "time perception" is far different from the rest of world including speedsters.
> 
> Battle awareness and reactions has little to do with time perception. Goku can sense his opponents and him doing so has little to do with his time perception.


That's a completely meaningless distinction.
And you yourself have already explained how Flash's perception is different from other people. You said Flash is permanently perceiving events at his maximum speed, while everybody else (like Superman) raises their perception only when necessary.

If there's anything more to it, then please share. The authors making a big song and dance about nothing because speed is his main shtick doesn't give it any substance on its own. The fact is, perceiving events that last a femtosecond is nothing special for people in the billions FTL range, much less for those in the trillions. 
So again, if his perception IS somehow unique in a way that is relevant to the fight, do share. Because as far as I can see, the only unique thing here is that being the Flash must be a living nightmare.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Toaa (May 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> That's a completely meaningless distinction.
> And you yourself have already explained how Flash's perception is different from other people. You said Flash is permanently perceiving events at his maximum speed, while everybody else (like Superman) raises their perception only when necessary.


At least wally does not always operate at those speeds.In a issue iris parents were there for a visit and wally was saying he was operating at normal human speed until he got anxious because iris father was about to ask him sth and then his perception of time slowed down due to anxiety.


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## SSBMonado (May 23, 2017)

Toaa said:


> At least wally does not always operate at those speeds.In a issue iris parents were there for a visit and wally was saying he was operating at normal human speed until he got anxious because iris father was about to ask him sth and then his perception of time slowed down due to anxiety.


So... he is basically the same as every other superhuman, just in reverse. Everybody else raises their perception when necessary, while Flash lowers it when necessary.

So anyone else got any input on this? Am I looking at this correctly or wrong?
Basically, a guy with femtosecond reactions is in the low billions of times FTL, meaning Flash gets blitzed by DBS top tiers and we can finally move on to a different effing character (namely Green Lantern)


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## tonpa (May 23, 2017)

Goku had amazing senses. Feats that shit on the flash. He can find someone across the universe with his mind in seconds. Someone should calc that.


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## Xhominid (May 23, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Maybe i am wording this wrong kinetic motion not kinetic Energy.
> 
> Not exactly a car traveling 50 mph ( kinetic motion) isn't the same as he he kinetic energy of it colliding head first.
> 
> Goku as far as I know physically without the use of kai energy is throwing those level of destructive output. But he channels his energy in his attacks.



None of that really matters though when Goku in base after being ran ragged by Beerus was able to completely destroy a blast that he and Beerus contributed to that would have utterly destroyed the living universe, the afterlife and the World of the Kais all at once.

And Goku is FAR stronger now than his BoG version is. He nor Vegeta should even NEED to power up to get rid of Flash, period.
Hell, past hax, there's nothing stopping Goku and Vegeta in base from pretty much ransacking the entire Justice League as they are currently.


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## Huey Freeman (May 23, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> None of that really matters though when Goku in base after being ran ragged by Beerus was able to completely destroy a blast that he and Beerus contributed to that would have utterly destroyed the living universe, the afterlife and the World of the Kais all at once.
> 
> And Goku is FAR stronger now than his BoG version is. He nor Vegeta should even NEED to power up to get rid of Flash, period.
> Hell, past hax, there's nothing stopping Goku and Vegeta in base from pretty much ransacking the entire Justice League as they are currently.


I am not arguing Goku power level here I'm fully aware in a direct confrontation he has this in the bag. Hence why Superman for example isn't even a factor.


However Flash has certain abilities and the speed to compete to allow his to do damage to Goku who has no answer for. That's what I'm arguing. I'm focusing on Speed Steal but there's intangibility and BFR ( only knowing the speed force formula allows one to enter and escape the speed force unless you can punch a hole through reality)


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## Blade (May 23, 2017)

current Ultimate Gohan alone can casually solo them

he would oneshot them the same way he did to Tien

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## SSBMonado (May 23, 2017)

That's what it looks like to me, too
Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Cyborg and Superman our out-stated hopelessly and Flash gets speedblitzed.
That leaves Green Lantern as the only hope for the JL, and unless he is significantly faster than the Flash (as in, more than 10.000 times faster), he gets speedblitzed, too. 
Fight starts, 17 fires a blast, gg


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## TobiSan (May 23, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Err, no.
> 
> Barry is just generally faster. It was made perfectly clear at the start of the New 52. When both were flying/running away from Darkseids omega beams, it was Clark who got hit.
> 
> Jay Garrick stole speed from Superman.




Barry didn't outrun Omega Beams, he phased through a Parademon, something Superman can't do. Barry collapsed on the ground right after. He would have gotten hit just like Superman if he didn't phase. Also what does one moment at the start of New 52 have to do with with this?

Barry outran the Omega Beams just as much as Wally "outran" Black Flash.

Jay Garrick stole speed from Superman for a second, second later Superman was already gaining on him. Would hardly call that a speed steal.


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## LoveLessNHK (May 23, 2017)

Where do DBS speed feats come from? I'm not caught up (just finished the episode where Zeno wiped out the future-universe-thing).

As far as I thought, the best speeds came from Whis using his staff, so I'm totally lost.


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## Blαck (May 23, 2017)

LoveLessNHK said:


> *Where do DBS speed feats come from?* I'm not caught up (just finished the episode where Zeno wiped out the future-universe-thing).
> 
> As far as I thought, the best speeds came from Whis using his staff, so I'm totally lost.


Whis' going places and guys reacting to it, basically.


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## LoveLessNHK (May 23, 2017)

Blαck said:


> Whis' going places and guys reacting to it, basically.



Reacted to it in what way?


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## Blαck (May 23, 2017)

LoveLessNHK said:


> Reacted to it in what way?


I guess Whis flew somewhere far as hell in moments (can't remember time frame) and Beerus did the same thing(although slower or something). So powerscaling gives it to Goku and the like for being able to fight him(beerus)


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## LoveLessNHK (May 23, 2017)

Blαck said:


> I guess Whis flew somewhere far as hell in moments (can't remember time frame) and Beerus did the same thing(although slower or something). So powerscaling gives it to Goku and the like for being able to fight him(beerus)



But...Goku is nowhere near Beerus/Whis, even if they "fought evenly" one time. Cause Beerus was going easy on Goku. So unless there is some reason to believe that the level Whis/Beerus displayed when they did that speed feat was also dumbed down to Goku's level, I don't see why it scales down to Goku/others on Goku's level.


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## The Runner (May 23, 2017)

TobiSan said:


> Barry didn't outrun Omega Beams, he phased through a Parademon, something Superman can't do. Barry collapsed on the ground right after. He would have gotten hit just like Superman if he didn't phase. Also what does one moment at the start of New 52 have to do with with this?


The fact that Barry can phase while Clark can't phase, something even Supergirl managed to do back in Post-Crisis, speaks volumes on who is better in the Super Speed department.

And one moment?  The disparity has been made clear by Barry even in their fight in the same arc

This is the same author that wrote "those were for charity, Clark" 

Also Barry even claimed he was faster later in his solo


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## Blαck (May 23, 2017)

LoveLessNHK said:


> But...Goku is nowhere near Beerus/Whis, even if they "fought evenly" one time. Cause Beerus was going easy on Goku. *So unless there is some reason to believe that the level Whis/Beerus displayed when they did that speed feat was also dumbed down to Goku's level*, I don't see why it scales down to Goku/others on Goku's level.



Don't even remember to the episode all that clearly myself so it could be that 

check the DBS feats thread, someone in there knows for sure.


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## TobiSan (May 23, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> The fact that Barry can phase while Clark can't phase, something even Supergirl managed to do back in Post-Crisis, speaks volumes on who is better in the Super Speed department.
> 
> And one moment?  The disparity has been made clear by Barry even in their fight in the same arc
> 
> ...



Phasing has nothing to do with speed, Hunter Zolomon couldn't phase yet he was faster than Wally. 
Post-Crisis Superman can phase as well.

Superman still has far better travel speed feats in New 52 like flying from Pluto to Earth in mere seconds which takes light 4 hours.

2009 Rebirth and New 52 Barry/Clark are very different. 

Hyperbole statements mean nothing.


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## The Runner (May 23, 2017)

TobiSan said:


> Phasing has nothing to do with speed, Hunter Zolomon couldn't phase yet he was faster than Wally.


Funny how you single out the only "speedster" that doesn't really have Super Speed, rather a specific Time Manipulation.

Try again


TobiSan said:


> Superman still has far better travel speed feats in New 52 like flying from Pluto to Earth in mere seconds which takes light 4 hours.


Superman flew from the ends of the universe to earth in the timeframe in two months

That's roughly a hundred billion times faster than light, along with him intercepting black holes.

That still doesn't really prove a thing, considering how Flash is still faster every time they meet. 


TobiSan said:


> Rebirth and New 52 Barry/Clark are very different.


Yeah. Barry in New 52 is literally just a younger 2009 Barry, while Newb 52 Clark is literally just half of Post-Crisis (in other words, weaker)



TobiSan said:


> Hyperbole statements mean nothing.


Hey I got a better idea. How about every time you disregard a statement as hyperbole, you, I dunno, actually _prove _its hyperbole?


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## TobiSan (May 24, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Funny how you single out the only "speedster" that doesn't really have Super Speed, rather a specific Time Manipulation.
> 
> Try again
> 
> ...




His time manipulation gives him super speed, in his own time he is running super fast because he is fast forwarding time. 
New 52 Superman and Supergirl couldn't vibrate even though they had Super Speed.

I don't see what Flash being faster every time they meet prove anything more than feats do? They both hold back and it's not like they race every time they meet.

2009 Barry and New 52 Barry are same characters, but they are very different in speed, New52 Barry sometimes has hard time reaching light speed.


How is New 52 weaker than Post-Crisis Superman? New52 has better speed and strength feats while PC has better striking and durability feats.


It was a hyperbole throw away statement from Barry, it's not like Clarck even tried to chase Barry. He was literally running instead of flying which makes him a lot faster. I don't really see what statement from Post-Crisis has anything to do with New52 anyway.


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## Kurou (May 24, 2017)

H'el solos


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## The Runner (May 24, 2017)

TobiSan said:


> How is New 52 weaker than Post-Crisis Superman? New52 has better speed and strength feats while PC has better striking and durability feats.


Because Newb 52 is literally just half of Post-Crisis? Also, Post-Crisis has a trillion x ftl feat under his belt, while Newb 52 doesn't. Not to mention that Post Crisis has a Large Star Level feat as a low end strength feat while New 52 only has a Planet Level feat.


TobiSan said:


> His time manipulation gives him super speed, in his own time he is running super fast because he is fast forwarding time.


"Super Speed"

You even explained it yourself. It's Time Manipulation, he doesn't really have the traditional Super Speed that The Flash, Superman, or Captain Marvel all have. Or even Thawne, who CAN vibrate.


TobiSan said:


> New 52 Superman and Supergirl couldn't vibrate even though they had Super Speed.


It's almost like I already mentioned this in favor of my initial argument 

Oh wait...


TobiSan said:


> 2009 Barry and New 52 Barry are same characters, but they are very different in speed, New52 Barry sometimes has hard time reaching light speed.


You mean like that Time he evacuated Tokyo in the span of 30 seconds?

Or when he could react in a Femtosecond?

Sure let's entertain the notion 


TobiSan said:


> It was a hyperbole throw away statement from Barry, it's not like Clarck even tried to chase Barry. He was literally running instead of flying which makes him a lot faster. I don't really see what statement from Post-Crisis has anything to do with New52 anyway.


He did back in the day. Clark was fast enough to flick him away, but Barry was in general running circles around him.

It's important because it's not only "kind of" the same author portraying them the same way he portrayed them before. It gives context


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## XImpossibruX (May 24, 2017)

Aww I missed this thread.


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## XImpossibruX (May 24, 2017)

Better match up should have been Post-Crisis League.


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## Huey Freeman (May 24, 2017)

XImpossibruX said:


> Better match up should have been Post-Crisis League.


Wouldn't change anything in responses


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## XImpossibruX (May 24, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Wouldn't change anything in responses



I could just type "Martian Manhunter mindrapes" and call it a day.


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## LoveLessNHK (May 24, 2017)

XImpossibruX said:


> I could just type "Martian Manhunter mindrapes" and call it a day.



How would that make the match up "better"?


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## The Runner (May 24, 2017)

XImpossibruX said:


> Aww I missed this thread.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Toaa (May 24, 2017)

XImpossibruX said:


>


Could he mindrape buu though?


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## Nep Heart (May 24, 2017)

Toaa said:


> Could he mindrape buu though?



 If Babidi could do it, I don't see why a vastly superior telepath like Martian Manhunter can't.


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## Deer Lord (May 24, 2017)

XImpossibruX said:


> I could just type "Martian Manhunter mindrapes" and call it a day.


Too slow.


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## Toaa (May 24, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> If Babidi could do it, I don't see why a vastly superior telepath like Martian Manhunter can't.


Babidi couldnt though.He was threatening to reseal him


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## Nep Heart (May 24, 2017)

Toaa said:


> Babidi couldnt though.He was threatening to reseal him



 Babidi had control over Buu to an extent actually, it just wasn't very effective to retain control for too long. That's why he threatened to reseal him in the first place. Not that it matters because mental resistance feats in Dragon Ball generally are very paltry to begin with, not sure what you're trying to argue for as far as defense goes against highly potent telepaths anyway.


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## twirdman (May 24, 2017)

LoveLessNHK said:


> But...Goku is nowhere near Beerus/Whis, even if they "fought evenly" one time. Cause Beerus was going easy on Goku. So unless there is some reason to believe that the level Whis/Beerus displayed when they did that speed feat was also dumbed down to Goku's level, I don't see why it scales down to Goku/others on Goku's level.



You can scale Goku to Hit's speed and we know Hit was able to fly universal distance.


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## Catalyst75 (May 24, 2017)

Just to give early warning, I think DoomTM is back in the forum as Trycco.  The brat just bombarded my conversation board with that 190000+ dimensional snowflake bit from Wildstorm as proof of "infinite DC universe".


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## Unlosing Ranger (May 25, 2017)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Bitch show me what the fuck flash can do Zeno?


Zeno is where?


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## TobiSan (May 25, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Because Newb 52 is literally just half of Post-Crisis? Also, Post-Crisis has a trillion x ftl feat under his belt, while Newb 52 doesn't. Not to mention that Post Crisis has a Large Star Level feat as a low end strength feat while New 52 only has a Planet Level feat.
> 
> "Super Speed"
> 
> ...




What are Clarck's star level and trillions x ftl feats? Post-Crisis Superman couldn't even move planets alone which New52 Supes does with ease.

Time Manipulation or not, he still runs fast in his own timeline.

Are you even reading my posts? I already stated that Flash has better reaction time speed while Superman has better travel speed.

Femtosecond was one time hyperbole feat, it has never happened again in all the years.
Barry didn't evacuate Tokyo in 30 seconds, he stated he could do it, it was never shown if he actually did it that fast.


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## TobiSan (May 25, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Just to give early warning, I think DoomTM is back in the forum as Trycco.  The brat just bombarded my conversation board with that 190000+ dimensional snowflake bit from Wildstorm as proof of "infinite DC universe".



Wait, are you implying that DC doesn't have an infinite Multiverse?


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## Blαck (May 25, 2017)

TobiSan said:


> Wait, are you implying that DC doesn't have an infinite Multiverse?



He might be referring to Doomtm's wacky reasonings for giving certain dc characters universal/multiversal scaling. Like he tried with Supes recently.


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## The Runner (May 25, 2017)

TobiSan said:


> What are Clarck's star level and trillions x ftl feats? Post-Crisis Superman couldn't even move planets alone which New52 Supes does with ease.
> 
> Time Manipulation or not, he still runs fast in his own timeline.
> 
> ...


Lol. Intercepting the reality blitzing missles in Final Crisis tie ins and moving the maggeddon.  Also it hilarious that you think New 52 moved the planet, when the best he's ever done was merely lift its mass for more than 24 hours, which isn't as impressive as you think it is.

Yeah, "runs fast"

Yeah. And you don't seem to understand what "Travel Speed" and "Combat Speed" exactly are, really. Considering, like I said, Flash has demonstrated to be faster every time they meet. Even Superman's own comic argues that Flash has to be faster.

Yeah. Hyperbole. Go with that whenever something goes against your point. That does you good.


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## LoveLessNHK (May 25, 2017)

twirdman said:


> You can scale Goku to Hit's speed and we know Hit was able to fly universal distance.



That works for me better than scaling to Beerus/Whis.

When did Hit cover universal distance though?


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## Catalyst75 (May 25, 2017)

TobiSan said:


> Wait, are you implying that DC doesn't have an infinite Multiverse?



He tried to use the Wildstorm snowflake as proof of it, and I decided to crunch the numbers:

The 196,833 dimensional snowflake is said to have a number of rotations equal to the number of atoms making up the Earth.

Here's the estimated total number of atoms in the Earth: 1.33*10^50. 

If I were to multiply it by all the seconds that exist in the Universe I get: 5.78*10^67.  That isn't even a Googol of Universes.  And we don't even know of this snowflake even still exists in the current DC Multiverse, given the main Wildstorm Earth was combined into the DC Multiverse (and its heroes in to the mainstream DC Earth).
---------------------------------------------------
And I only point it out because the first thing they decide to do when they made an account is to go straight for my Conversations board like a petulant child who can't stand losing, and make four conversation posts in a row about the issue.

In other words, he's probably going to go onto the wank path again, if he decides to ever post here again (and not just harass me in the Conversation board).


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## twirdman (May 25, 2017)

LoveLessNHK said:


> That works for me better than scaling to Beerus/Whis.
> 
> When did Hit cover universal distance though?



When he has to assassinate Goku he travels from his own universe to universe 7.


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## The Runner (May 25, 2017)

twirdman said:


> When he has to assassinate Goku he travels from his own universe to universe 7.


Wasn't there a need for Vados?

Or am I just confusing the fact that Vados paid him in behest of Goku?


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## twirdman (May 25, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Wasn't there a need for Vados?
> 
> Or am I just confusing the fact that Vados paid him in behest of Goku?



Vados is the one who hired him to do the hit but there is nothing to imply that he was the one who took him there.  Also as far as I know Hit left before we see Vados and Champa leave.


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## LoveLessNHK (May 25, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Vados is the one who hired him to do the hit but there is nothing to imply that he was the one who took him there.  Also as far as I know Hit left before we see Vados and Champa leave.



But that is also an assumption.

See here, if Universe 6 won the tournament, Hit was supposed to win the traveling cube thing. Would you mind telling me why he'd want that for travel if he was already capable of traveling universal distances/going to other universes on his own? 

Idk, I feel like assuming he got Vados' help is a far safer assumption than assuming he did it on his own. But maybe that's just me.


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## twirdman (May 25, 2017)

LoveLessNHK said:


> But that is also an assumption.
> 
> See here, if Universe 6 won the tournament, Hit was supposed to win the traveling cube thing. Would you mind telling me why he'd want that for travel if he was already capable of traveling universal distances/going to other universes on his own?
> 
> Idk, I feel like assuming he got Vados' help is a far safer assumption than assuming he did it on his own. But maybe that's just me.



He said himself he got a major upgrade in power from his fight with Goku.  This along with some training in the intervening time may have allowed him to travel between universes.


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## LoveLessNHK (May 26, 2017)

twirdman said:


> He said himself he got a major upgrade in power from his fight with Goku.  This along with some training in the intervening time may have allowed him to travel between universes.



You can't just assume stuff like that. That's like, rule number one.


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## Worldbreaker (May 26, 2017)

You guys are very weird, the thread is talking about New 52 and you start talking about post-crisis feats, spead stealing and shit lol

Any competent god level character in DB can win against the league at this point


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## The Runner (May 26, 2017)

Blame DC for making everything and nothing Canon


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## Cain1234 (May 26, 2017)

LoveLessNHK said:


> But that is also an assumption.
> 
> See here, if Universe 6 won the tournament, Hit was supposed to win the traveling cube thing. Would you mind telling me why he'd want that for travel if he was already capable of traveling universal distances/going to other universes on his own?
> 
> Idk, I feel like assuming he got Vados' help is a far safer assumption than assuming he did it on his own. But maybe that's just me.



Nope that itself is a huge assumption.

Hit was never implied to need Vados to travel Universal distance. He came to Earth before Vados and Champa and left Earth on his own without them.

And he wanted the Cube because it allows him to travel undetected.

Throughout his whole journey Goku could sense Hit travelling  or doing whatever he does.

With the cube Hit would have been undetected.



LoveLessNHK said:


> You can't just assume stuff like that. That's like, rule number one.




You yourself assumes Hit had Vados helping him. When there is no proof what so ever on it.

He left before them and came before them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hamaru (May 26, 2017)

So...is Flash the only hope JL has at taking this fight?


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## SSBMonado (May 26, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> So...is Flash the only hope JL has at taking this fight?


More like the JL has no hope at all, because Flash just gets blitzed along with everything else. The fight starts, 17 fires a blast, the fight ends


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## twirdman (May 26, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Throughout his whole journey Goku could sense Hit travelling  or doing whatever he does.



Think this shows us another reason why we shouldn't assume Hit received help from Vados.  Goku sensed Hit and could tell Hit was going to do him harm and just prepares for him to come so he can fight him, this is reasonable since Hit and Goku are relatively evenly matched.  If Hit was travelling with Vados there would be no reason Goku couldn't send Vados and if he sensed Vados he'd probably try and call in help since he knows he isn't a match for Champa or Vados.


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## Dreams of Tommorow (May 26, 2017)

twirdman said:


> Think this shows us another reason why we shouldn't assume Hit received help from Vados.  Goku sensed Hit and could tell Hit was going to do him harm and just prepares for him to come so he can fight him, this is reasonable since Hit and Goku are relatively evenly matched.  If Hit was travelling with Vados there would be no reason Goku couldn't send Vados and if he sensed Vados he'd probably try and call in help since he knows he isn't a match for Champa or Vados.



Hit said he no longer had a need for the cube after his fight with goku in the U6 tourney


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## twirdman (May 26, 2017)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> Hit said he no longer had a need for the cube after his fight with goku in the U6 tourney



I forgot about that one.  Yeah everything is pointing to Hit travelling using his own power.


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## Nighty the Mighty (May 26, 2017)

hold on

how is travelling between universes a speed feat?


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## Toaa (May 26, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> More like the JL has no hope at all, because Flash just gets blitzed along with everything else. The fight starts, 17 fires a blast, the fight ends


And tien is still fodder.


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## Bad Wolf (May 26, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> how is travelling between universes a speed feat?


Because apparently in Dragon ball Super every universe is on the same spacetime, that's why people can fly from one to the another or Super Shenron can illuminate two universes. But I don't think there's any hit calc, even because there's no timeframe and no real view of how he traveled I think


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## LoveLessNHK (May 26, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Nope that itself is a huge assumption.
> 
> Hit was never implied to need Vados to travel Universal distance. He came to Earth before Vados and Champa and left Earth on his own without them.
> 
> ...



Alright, that makes sense. Except his own abilities make him basically undetectable,  but, yeah, I suppose he might need our pending he gets sent after more Gokus. It's stupid, but out makes enough sense.



Cain1234 said:


> You yourself assumes Hit had Vados helping him. When there is no proof what so ever on it.
> 
> He left before them and came before them.



I said it was a safer assumption, not that I wasn't making assumptions. The problem I have is assuming Hit can cross into other universe's when we've seen very few people do that, namely Whis, Vados, and Xeno. 



Dreams of Tommorow said:


> Hit said he no longer had a need for the cube after his fight with goku in the U6 tourney



Hmm, I think I remember that now. I'll have to look it up to be sure. Either way, if the need for the cube was just to avoid detection then it still says nothing about Hit just being able to cross into another universe on his own.



Nighty the Mighty said:


> hold on
> 
> how is travelling between universes a speed feat?



That's the thing. Everything is being made up. Regardless if Hit traveled with his own power, we can't know how far he traveled, nor for how long.

This feat should not count as a way to validate comparing Hit and Goku level characters to Whis/Beerus level "casual" speed feats. IMRO.



Bad Wolf said:


> Because apparently in Dragon ball Super every universe is on the same spacetime, that's why people can fly from one to the another or Super Shenron can illuminate two universes. But I don't think there's any hit calc, even because there's no timeframe and no real view of how he traveled I think



What are you talking about? In what way are the universes (at least 6 and 7) on the same spacetime? What do you even mean by that? They clearly had their own timelines, demonstrated by Universe 6's Earth falling to ruin. I'm just really confused.


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## Bad Wolf (May 26, 2017)

LoveLessNHK said:


> What are you talking about? In what way are the universes (at least 6 and 7) on the same spacetime? What do you even mean by that? They clearly had their own timelines, demonstrated by Universe 6's Earth falling to ruin. I'm just really confused.


Well, if I'm not mistaken everyone can fly everywhere, from afterlife to earth, from earth to kaioshin realm, from earth to zeno palace (they didn't only because it would took too much time) and even super shenron was illuminating 2 universe. I know it's weird but it seems like that.
Many of the calc done implies that, for example the only one that Zeno have. I've some doubt about the whole concept but no one ever brought the argument out


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## Nighty the Mighty (May 26, 2017)

So how fast are the dragon ball characters then?


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## LoveLessNHK (May 26, 2017)

Bad Wolf said:


> Well, if I'm not mistaken everyone can fly everywhere, from afterlife to earth, from earth to kaioshin realm, from earth to zeno palace (they didn't only because it would took too much time) and even super shenron was illuminating 2 universe. I know it's weird but it seems like that.
> Many of the calc done implies that, for example the only one that Zeno have. I've some doubt about the whole concept but no one ever brought the argument out



All of that is different, I thought. When they explained the different universes it was shown visually that they are separate. It might have been a metaphorical representation, but the implication was still that they aren't connected except maybe in some meta-physical way.

As for hell and all those types of places...idk. I guess I just figured those were places that existed in the real world, in the same dimension, just some distance away.

The universes are weird though. There are only twelve universes, but when time disruption occurs another timeline is created that presumably exists parallel (for the lack of a better word) to the initial one. It effectively creates another universe in the universe. But the universe isn't a separate  "universe" in the sense that 7 is separate from 6, I don't think. Idk. It's convoluted and nonsensical, tbh. They should have retconned the future Trunks thing when they introduced the other universes by saying Trunk's universe was universe 6 or something.


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## SSBMonado (May 26, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> So how fast are the dragon ball characters then?


Something something trillions of times FTL.
Don't know how deep into the trillions, though.


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## Nighty the Mighty (May 26, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Something something trillions of times FTL.
> Don't know how deep into the trillions, though.





link to calc?


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## Bad Wolf (May 26, 2017)

LoveLessNHK said:


> All oof that is different, I thought. When the explained the different universe's or was shown visually that they are separate. It might have been a metaphorical representation, but the implication was still that they aren't connected except maybe in some meta-physical way.


Don't know, I asked a similar question in one other topic and they even said that every universe have the same space/time. It makes sense because people travelled between universe without teleport or any specific method. The timeline of Trunks seems to be a totally different place and the dimension for the tourment seems to be the same, a different place were you can't just walk/fly as the universe.
What other thinks about this?


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## LoveLessNHK (May 26, 2017)

Bad Wolf said:


> Don't know, I asked a similar question in one other topic and they even said that every universe have the same space/time. It makes sense because people travelled between universe without teleport or any specific method. The timeline of Trunks seems to be a totally different place and the dimension for the tourment seems to be the same, a different place were you can't just walk/fly as the universe.
> What other thinks about this?



But they did travel a specific way. They used the staff. I believe the staff enables them to travel in a separate kind of... thing... and so it allows them to get places quickly as well as allowing them access to other universes.


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## Cooler (May 26, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> link to calc?



Whis has a few quadrillion c calcs. Not sure where they are though...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Solar (May 26, 2017)

God Movement said:


> It wasn't 24 hours though, so that's extremely conservative. Haven't worked it out myself yet.
> 
> Ok, the evidence of time we need is in the episode. Bulma cooks dinner and Beerus is still picking his teeth as they are flying to Universe 10. The food was apparently cooked at night time if you see the episode (as everyone is still eating):
> 
> ...





God Movement said:


> 503.1 billion light years = 4.759693500755e+27m
> 
> 4.759693500755e+27/21600 = 2.2035618e+23 or 735 trillion c
> 
> In line with the previous one. You'd need an even more accurate time frame to break it.





Montanz said:


> Quick calc for the saving gowasu feat, took around 10 seconds, considering the kai planet is in the center of the realm we get 1/20th of the universe as distance (plus and unknown amount of space between the realm and the mortal universe)
> gives something like 1.46e16 times the speed of light.





God Movement said:


> Never mind, I got it.
> 
> 540px = 93 billion LY / 8.8×10^26m
> 133px = Distance flown = 2.1674074e+26m
> ...





God Movement said:


> Tonight I'll just do Zen'o erasing Universe 7 in 12 seconds. Since that happened on screen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





God Movement said:


> I've got a better idea. Looking at the movies, in BoG the distance from Kaio's to Earth is stated to be approx. 3 minutes. In RoF the distance from Beerus' to Earth was 30 minutes at Whis' casual speed of course. Overall in all forms of "Super" media Beerus' planet is implied to be further away to Earth, the timeframes could have changed, but the position on the universal map is probably constant. So we can use the distance from Kaios to Earth as a low end.
> 
> 
> 
> ...

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Cain1234 (May 27, 2017)

The distance between universes in Dragon Ball is greater that the size of the universe.




Here are the 12 universes as lawn ornaments for Zeno.


Observe the distance between the Giant Universe Sizes Rocks holding the universes in place.





The distance between universes are at lease 3 to 5 times greater than the size of the universe itself.


That should show how far Hit travelled.


Now the time frame.


In episode 71, at 11:35 minutes, Goku tell Gohan and Goten that someone is after his life( he knows this because  he himself hired Hit by porxy to kill him, Goku).

He had been spending the whole day trying to sense Hit.


After a few minutes we see Hit assassinate the Mob boss.


In 15:40 minutes in, we see Hit get his contract.


Goku senses Hit in 16:30 minutes into the episode.


Meaning, Hit travelled from Universe 6 to Universe 7 is less than an hour to a few hours.  


Watch the full episode of you want better context.

Link removed


That is INSANELY FAST, well beyond Trillions to Octillions of times FTL at the bare minimum.


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## Nighty the Mighty (May 27, 2017)

So what is a universe in DBS then?


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## Cain1234 (May 27, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> So what is a universe in DBS then?




A Universe is a set space, that can have potentially even more space. Each Universe in Dragon Ball is a multi-dimensional Universe containing potentially infinite number of Planets/Stars/Galaxies. Also each point in space time can have potentially infinite sized parallel dimensions.

Ex: Room of Spirit and Time, Heaven and Hell for EACH individual planets, (most likely created and based of the indigenious lifeforms belief system), also Sub dimensions like Dead Zone and the Forest of Evil(an island containing a dimension with multiple moons itself). 

All sharing a single Timeline

That is my theory


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## TobiSan (May 27, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Lol. Intercepting the reality blitzing missles in Final Crisis tie ins and moving the maggeddon.  Also it hilarious that you think New 52 moved the planet, when the best he's ever done was merely lift its mass for more than 24 hours, which isn't as impressive as you think it is.
> 
> Yeah, "runs fast"
> 
> ...



I pointed out feats to you haven't shown me any feats to point out why Flash is faster in travel speed, you keep saying every time they meet Flash is faster, which doesn't much much in a debate.

Show me the missile feats.

New 52 Superman moved Warworld and helped MMH move Brainiac's ship.


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## Toaa (May 27, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> So what is a universe in DBS then?


Nighty its made of a cosmic space like ours,the demon  realm whose size is as big as our universe and heaven which is 1/10 of the size of our universe.


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## windmace123 (May 27, 2017)

TobiSan said:


> I pointed out feats to you haven't shown me any feats to point out why Flash is faster in travel speed, you keep saying every time they meet Flash is faster, which doesn't much much in a debate.
> 
> Show me the missile feats.
> 
> New 52 Superman moved Warworld and helped MMH move Brainiac's ship.


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## windmace123 (May 27, 2017)

superman traveling the universe in 60 days. Now how impress is this feat? I got a calc proving how fast it makes him and here it is.

Well 10^14 ly = 9.5×10^29 m
.
Which in 60 days (5,184,000 s)
.
The speed would be ≈ 1.83×10^23 m/s, or 612 trillion times the speed of light

9.5×10^29/5184009.

Now as you see it makes superman 612 trillion times ftl


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## SSBMonado (May 27, 2017)

Uhm, where is it confirmed that Supes flew 10^14 lightyears? Wasn't that that figure somebody threw around earlier in the thread for the total diameter of the entire universe? If that is the case, then he obviously didn't fly the whole thing; just whatever distance he was away from earth. 
And speaking of which, if I remember this feat correctly, an exact distance was never specified, making the whole feat meaningless and your "calc" wank.


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## Claudio Swiss (May 27, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Uhm, where is it confirmed that Supes flew 10^14 lightyears? Wasn't that that figure somebody threw around earlier in the thread for the total diameter of the entire universe? If that is the case, then he obviously didn't fly the whole thing; just whatever distance he was away from earth.
> And speaking of which, if I remember this feat correctly, an exact distance was never specified, making the whole feat meaningless and your "calc" wank.


I remember Vivi did it and it came out 273 billions xftl  dont know where he got trillions.


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## windmace123 (May 27, 2017)

Scan is quite clear, shows him in space for 60 days none stop flying across the universe

The DC Universe is approximately 100 trillion light years big.
100 Trillion LY in 60 days.

100,000,000,000,000/60 days=1,666,666,666,666.667 light years a day.

Divide that by the amount of seconds from 60 days 86,400 seconds than estimating the length of meters in that span in 1 second (too big to write down).

End results: Superman was flying 608, 749, 999, 999,999.823 times faster than the speed of light


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## Cain1234 (May 27, 2017)

So 608 trillion C

So this would be an upper limit of Super's speed calc.


So how would you calculate Hit crossing U 6 to U7 in an instant.

Like Hit can

A) Stop time
B) Stop time within stopped time.
C) Repeat this loop multiple times thus giving him potentially infinite time.
D) Take the stored stopped time to make his own universe with infinite space.
E) Go into this universe, and phase in and out of this universe to be intangible and go through objects like even planets and stars.


So using this technique he could travel from Universe 6 to Universe 7 in an instant.

If you want to Calc it.

Just find the distance between U7 to U6

At a minimum it is 90 Billion Lightyears
Divided by

(1)(0.1)(0.2)(0.5)second.

The  denominator numbers are the amount Hit can time stop by in the U6/7 tournament.

If the time duration is 1 second. Then Hit is 8.5x10^26 c That is the most lowest calc I got.

I use the Distance between Universe as just the size of the universe as the distance between them is even 5 time greater when looking form Zeno Sama's perspective.


The technique is a alot like instant transmission if observed from an outsider perspective.


Regardless Goku is able to predict events before they happen. That is how he initially countered Hits technique. Which is like negative reaction speed.

Then when Hit used improvement Goku just straight up lol nope any time shenanigans with SSJBKK.


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## SSBMonado (May 27, 2017)

windmace123 said:


> Scan is quite clear, shows him in space for 60 days none stop flying across the universe
> 
> The DC Universe is approximately 100 trillion light years big.
> 100 Trillion LY in 60 days.
> ...


Lurk more.
The universe being X lightyears big in absolutely NO way automatically implies that Superman flew that entire distance. You need statements to back that up. Otherwise you're using completely baseless high ends, which we do not accept the OBD.
For your calc to be legit, you'd have to prove that A) earth is located at the very edge of the universe and B) that Supes ended up on the exact opposite edge.


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## Bad Wolf (May 27, 2017)

LoveLessNHK said:


> But they did travel a specific way. They used the staff. I believe the staff enables them to travel in a separate kind of... thing... and so it allows them to get places quickly as well as allowing them access to other universes.


Well the staff for now seems only to be a physical movement I think. The problem is that I don't remember any sentence or implication about traveling between universe, they only addressed the problem of the distance in terms of length. But as you can see in the calc it implies that they traveled between universes



Nighty the Mighty said:


> So what is a universe in DBS then?


What do you mean? By size or compared to other universe structure of spacetime?


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## LoveLessNHK (May 27, 2017)

Bad Wolf said:


> Well the staff for now seems only to be a physical movement I think. The problem is that I don't remember any sentence or implication about traveling between universe, they only addressed the problem of the distance in terms of length. But as you can see in the calc it implies that they traveled between universes
> 
> 
> What do you mean? By size or compared to other universe structure of spacetime?



It doesn't make sense for the universes to be connected by physical spacetime. Both Universe 6 and 7 had their own Earth. They are separate but similar. On Zeno's world we see the universes, so in that sense they are connected at the very least on Zeno's land, but that representation could mean anything, it could be the universes, they could be doorways, they could be representations. 

Outside of Zeno's world, however, other than that you seem to believe they are only physically moving from one universe to the other, why would it be that the "individual" universes are in fact connected by physical spacetime, essentially making them one universe that has some unknown quality that divides them into what the gods consider to be separate universes?

Each sister pair of universes share a set of dragon balls. 1) either we believe that only the sister universes are connected, or 2) we believe they all are. If 1) then are you assuming Whis/Beerus also went to Universe 10 without using some ability to hop between dimensions, and if 2) then why would there be a distinction that sister universes share a set of dragon balls, when within the same physical space between all universes there is apparently 6 sets that any one person could theoretically gather given the time/speed. 

It just doesn't make sense given the information we have to assume they are connected on the same spacetime.

Saying the staff is the only way has holes too, as Zamasu seemed capable of going to Universe 7 (Trunks' time) and I don't think it was implied that he used a wish to get there. So...idk. 

I don't know. I really don't. I don't want to make too many assumptions, so I'll take back my assertion that the staff must be involved considering Zamasu's universe travel without one. But I cannot agree that the universes can be traveled between by just traveling through physical space.


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## Bad Wolf (May 28, 2017)

LoveLessNHK said:


> I don't know. I really don't. I don't want to make too many assumptions, so I'll take back my assertion that the staff must be involved considering Zamasu's universe travel without one. But I cannot agree that the universes can be traveled between by just traveling through physical space.


Zamasu have the teleport of the kaioshin, so he can go without problem. The staff have some magic property but flying at high speed and going to other dimension are 2 different thing, we can't get a speed from the dimensional teleport but we have speed calc for crossing universe. Best thing would be to rewatch some part to see what they really are, I too don't like to make assumption based on basically nothing but doing calc about that


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## tonpa (May 30, 2017)

So does the flash gets lol blitz


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## windmace123 (May 31, 2017)




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## windmace123 (May 31, 2017)

What is Team U7  counter for having their brains ripped out?


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## windmace123 (May 31, 2017)

And Remember Flash can make things explode when he phases through them
This is an example of it happening to someone's heart.


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## windmace123 (May 31, 2017)

Flash, punching so hard that his fist hits with more mass than the sun, every planet, and every bit of debris in our entire Solar System, combined.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Nighty the Mighty (May 31, 2017)

oh

it's you


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