# EoS Zoro vs EoS Luffy



## TheWiggian (Jun 3, 2016)

Speculate powerlvls.
Both BL. Loc: Desert. No restrictions.

S2: EoS Luffy vs EoS Sanji


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## Amon Lancelot (Jun 3, 2016)

TheWiggian said:


> Speculate powerlvls.
> Both BL. Loc: Desert. No restrictions.
> 
> S2: EoS Luffy vs EoS Sanji


S1 is a draw, or Legendary diff for the victor.

Scenario 2: Is at most a low diff win for Luffy. Sanji has no reason to even reach Admiral level. He's already accomplished his dream(Mermaid Cove = All Blue), and he's reaffirmed in recent chapters, that he's above all a Cook for the Strawhat. it was to cook for them that he trained all those years.
Maybe Marco level.

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## Gianfi (Jun 3, 2016)

Luffy extreme diffs Zoro and High diffs Sanji

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## Finalbeta (Jun 3, 2016)

EoS Luffy high diffs


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## gold ace (Jun 3, 2016)

Luffy high diff both sanji and zoro.

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## zoro (Jun 3, 2016)

Solid high and low high, respectively

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## Yuki (Jun 3, 2016)

Do people think Sani is going to be Ray tier now?

Sanji is going to be at max borderline admiral level.

Zoro is like to be Ray level come EoS.

Luffy is going to have to surpass Roger if BB is indeed going to be = WB.

Reason being Roger and WB were stalemating. Neither could win over the other.

However Luffy has to beat BB.

And lets not forget that BB has advantage over all DF uses. What is Luffy again? A DF user.

If BB is indeed going to be prime WB level while also holding advantage over DF eaters. Luffy will have to at least high dif Roger to be able to defeat him.

That, or Luffy actually does not become stronger than Roger or BB and CoC has something to do with his victory.

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## smoker San (Jun 3, 2016)

Well EoS Luffy will be dead so...

Zoro should high diff Sanji.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Dunno (Jun 3, 2016)

Total warrior said:


> Luffy extreme diffs Zoro and High diffs Sanji


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## Yuki (Jun 3, 2016)

SHs are going to have 3 pirate King level crew members EoS. 

Who needs allies? The SHs can clearly take down the Marines.

Fk the M3 can to it alone.

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## zoro (Jun 3, 2016)

If Luffy can beat them they're not PK level and even if they were they couldn't take on the marines alone because of the difference in numbers


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## Yuki (Jun 3, 2016)

Gyro said:


> If Luffy can beat them they're not PK level and even if they were they couldn't take on the marines alone because of the difference in numbers



Giving extreme dif to a PK level fighter is pretty much PK level fighter. O_O Extreme dif is winning 6 times out of 10. Or even 5.5.

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## zoro (Jun 3, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Giving extreme dif to a PK level fighter is pretty much PK level fighter. O_O Extreme dif is winning 6 times out of 10. Or even 5.5.



Nobody said he'd extreme diff Sanji


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Jun 4, 2016)

Luffy high diffs zoro and mid diffs sanji.

Luffy needs to be stronger than his devil fruit if he has to beat BB. That means all the jokes end.

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## Yuki (Jun 4, 2016)

Gyro said:


> Nobody said he'd extreme diff Sanji



I thought he said high high.  Pretty much just one down. 7/10 fights.


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## zoro (Jun 4, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> I thought he said high high.  Pretty much just one down. 7/10 fights.



I never though high diff meant the opponent could win a cetain number of times, that's extreme diff. High is more "I'll have to take you seriously and use high end moves to win", but that's just me. Anyway, high diff is what the Admirals should be able to give EoS Luffy, even if it's on the low end


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## Yuki (Jun 4, 2016)

Gyro said:


> I never though high diff meant the opponent could win a cetain number of times, that's extreme diff. High is more "I'll have to take you seriously and use high end moves to win", but that's just me. Anyway, high diff is what the Admirals should be able to give EoS Luffy, even if it's on the low end



Yea, but i thought he said high high. Just a next level down from extreme. As in, they would need to bring out everything they have and still come out of the fight with heavy wounds. Not all most losing and needing to rest for several days. But still. All it takes is one of those bad injures to the right place and bye bye.

It's pretty much a Prime Garp vs Prime Ray fight.


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## Geralt-Singh (Jun 4, 2016)

Luffy extreme diff
Luffy (high) mid diff


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## Finalbeta (Jun 4, 2016)

EoS Zoro will be about Sakazuki level and Luffy should high diff


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## Amon Lancelot (Jun 4, 2016)

What reason does Sanji have to even reach Admiral level?

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## Finalbeta (Jun 4, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> What reason does Sanji have to even reach Admiral level?


I can't see him beating Kizaru

What do you think?

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## zoro (Jun 4, 2016)

What reason doeshe have not to?


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## Amon Lancelot (Jun 4, 2016)

@Juvia, if EOS Luffy surpasses Roger, EOS Zoro should surpass Ray.

Ray was Roger's partner, and called a Legend mentioned in the sane breath as Whitebeard by Garp. Garp said the Marines can't face two legends at the sane time.

A 20 year out of practice Ray who had gone rusty, had the upper hand in his fight against Kizaru, managing to cut him.

If EOS Zoro surpasses Ray, he should be a very high/Extreme diff fight for EOS Luffy.

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## Finalbeta (Jun 4, 2016)

Kizaru is very powerful, he would've won the fight with Old Ray, considering his stamina but Prime Ray would defeat Kizaru

I think that Prime Ray is about EoS Akainu level


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## Amon Lancelot (Jun 4, 2016)

Gyro said:


> What reason doeshe have not to?



He's already accomplished his dream.
He prioritisises his role as a cook, more than his role as a fighter.
He trained during the two years for the explicit purpose of improving his cooking, stating he'd become stronger as a side effect.
His dream has *NOTHING *to do with strength. He could be as weak as Nami and still find the All Blue.
Oda has made him a cook first fighter second.
He's not exactly as strong-willed as Zoro/Luffy. When he was introduced he told Zoro to abandon his dream.
He's been portrayed as a mid tier post TS. For him to reach top tier, he'd have to grow more between now and EOS, than he did during the TS. Ergo Sanji would need another TS.
Those are the main reasons.
Another reason, is that Luffy's crew will have 2 Admiral+ characters, and one Admiral character, Remember that the 3 admirals are Marine's greatest fighting force. Luffy's crew alone will solo Marine HQ.

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## Finalbeta (Jun 4, 2016)

Sanji doesn't care about powering up, he was forced during the timeskip unlike Luffy and Zoron


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## zoro (Jun 4, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> He's already accomplished his dream.
> He prioritisises his role as a cook, more than his role as a fighter.
> He trained during the two years for the explicit purpose of improving his cooking, stating he'd become stronger as a side effect.
> His dream as *NOTHING *to do with strength. He could be as weak as Nami and still find the All Blue.
> ...




No
Doesn't mean he can't reach that level 
Same as above
Same as above
Same as above
Bullshit
Tiers are fan made and people with far worse potential have achieved far more incredible growths, i.e Coby
The Admirals are the main fighting force but not the only fighting force, that argument is bullshit. Three people on their level can't solo Marine HQ, there are soldiers, other officers, people like Garp and Sengoku and whatnot. Luffy got a fleet for a reason, fodders matter in a war

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## CaptainCommanderRenji (Jun 4, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> Sanji doesn't care about powering up, he was forced during the timeskip unlike Luffy and Zoron


Exactly and he really should start caring. Him becoming a top tier without even trying doesn't make much sense.

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## Amon Lancelot (Jun 4, 2016)

Gyro said:


> No Sanji stated himself on more than one occasion, that he has found the All Blue of his heart.
> Doesn't mean he can't reach that level It's a reason. Why should someone who's a cook first, fighter second reach Admiral level. You don't hand out Admiral level to just anybody.
> Same as above Ditto.
> Same as above Ditto.
> ...



Replies in red.

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## Amon Lancelot (Jun 4, 2016)

@Dunno, what reason does Sanji have to even reach Admiral level. 

Here are some things to consider:


Amon Lancelot said:


> He's already accomplished his dream.
> He prioritisises his role as a cook, more than his role as a fighter.
> He trained during the two years for the explicit purpose of improving his cooking, stating he'd become stronger as a side effect.
> His dream has *NOTHING *to do with strength. He could be as weak as Nami and still find the All Blue.
> ...

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## Finalbeta (Jun 4, 2016)

What busting capabilities do you think EoS Zoron will have bro


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## zoro (Jun 4, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Replies in red.




Yet he hasn't found the true All Blue
He's not anybody he's the third strongest fighter of the future pirate king's crew
Sanji told him to throw away his dream seven hundred chapters ago so he's not strong willed. Great. What about that time he accepted death rather than go against his principles? What about the fact that he's sacrificing everything to save his crew in this very arc? But we've already had this argument 
Tiers don't exist. Zoro and Coby reached their level through hard work, that's true. Sanji achieved his through fighting, sometimes. Who has more potential, the guy who's strong because he trains like crazy or the guy who's almost as strong while not training at all? 
So basically Sanji is the only reason the SHs won't be strong enough to take on Marine HQ alone? Even though for it to make sense he'd have to stop growing in strength right now, which will obviously not happen? When Luffy takes on Yonko 1on1 Sanji will take on their second best, which mean he'll already be at a level where he can at least occupy an Admiral. And then those fights will make him grow some more. Now tell me, why does him being first mate level or actually being able to beat an Admiral matter if the twelve other Strawhats can take on the Marines like you said they would?

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## Amon Lancelot (Jun 4, 2016)

Gyro said:


> What about the fact that he's sacrificing everything to save his crew in this very arc?


It was stated that he was threatened into going for the Wedding. Pekoms said what happens to those who refuse Mama's invitation, and Nami said so that's why Sanji had to go.

Sanji rejected a woman for his crew, so he's not weak willed, but he's not as strong-willed as Zoro/Luffy.



Gyro said:


> Sanji will take on their second best, which mean he'll already be at a level where he can at least occupy an Admiral. And then those fights will make him grow some more.


I assure you that Sanji is not soloing a Calamity this arc. He'd team up with Jinbe to take him on.



Gyro said:


> Now tell me, why does him being first mate level


I think EOS Sanji, will reach Marco level.
The next strongest should be Doffy level or maybe a little above.
The art about the SHS soloing Marine HQ, is not important. That's why I didn't bullet it.

Sanji has no reason to reach Admiral level, and I've mentioned reasons for him not to. If someone like Sanji, who's

A cook first, a Ladies man second and a fighter third.
Has a dream completely unrelated to strength.
Is not the most strong willed person
Prioritisises training his cuisine over his combat ability
Is currently a mid tier  (Smoker level and below)
Becomes Admiral level, then someone like Zoro should become able to mid diff Admirals giving that he:

Has a strength related dream to surpass someone stronger than an Admiral
Is only a fighter
Has the greatest will power in the crew.
Is paralleled to Rayleigh.
is currently a High tier
Is a potential Ruler of the sea
Received the best possible training for two years.
If Sanji becomes Admiral level, Admirals will become High tiers.

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## Amon Lancelot (Jun 4, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> What busting capabilities do you think EoS Zoron will have bro


Depends. If we Get a Space Arc, I can see him Moon busting. 
If we don't, country busting.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Beast (Jun 4, 2016)

It's Been made very clear that you don't talk to the guy above me.

He's gonna have a difficult fight with both of them... at least that's what Oda would do.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Raiden34 (Jun 4, 2016)

Zoro and Sanji have no business with fighting against their own CAPTAIN.... Together maybe.

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## Amon Lancelot (Jun 4, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> at least that's what Oda would do.


Wow, I didn't know you were his editor. Can I get a sneak peak on Wano then?
Or do you perhaps know Oda personally?


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## Beast (Jun 4, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> Wow, I didn't know you were his editor. Can I get a sneak peak on Wano then?
> Or do you perhaps know Oda personally?


Zoro dies and MoMo inherits his will and becomes the WSS in his steed.
We're blood brothers but from different mothers...


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## Veltpunch (Jun 4, 2016)

Sanji will have to beat one of the three admirals so I don't see how he won't be at least that strong by EoS. 

Imo, Luffy will very high diff Zoro (possibility of extreme) and high diff Sanji.


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## gold ace (Jun 4, 2016)

Rofl now people don't even think sanji will be admiral level egos. Please spare the bullcrap


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## Finalbeta (Jun 4, 2016)

I must admit that Sanji does not fit in the M3 anyway


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## Yuki (Jun 4, 2016)

Amon Lancelot said:


> @Juvia, if EOS Luffy surpasses Roger, EOS Zoro should surpass Ray.
> 
> Ray was Roger's partner, and called a Legend mentioned in the sane breath as Whitebeard by Garp. Garp said the Marines can't face two legends at the sane time.
> 
> ...



Not really.

Zoro does not need to because no one outside of Luffy Imo is going to surpass the old legends.

Luffy HAS to in order to beat BB.

However, Zoro does not. Even while being just short of prime Ray level he is likely to high dif his EoS opp.

Besides, even if he does. If i am right and Luffy surpasses Roger, even if Zoro does surpass Prime Ray it won't be anymore than a solid high dif fight because Imo Ray can only give solid high dif to Roger.


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## Kaiser (Jun 4, 2016)

Imo EOS Luffy high diffs EOS Zoro, same difficulty Roger would have with Rayleigh
I'm not sure with Sanji because the strongest third of a top tier crew we've seen so far(Jozu) isn't admiral level
It'd depend on the third strongest in Roger's crew, but i'd say mid diff win for EOS LUffy


Juvia. said:


> Not really.
> 
> Zoro does not need to because no one outside of Luffy Imo is going to surpass the old legends.
> 
> ...


You're talking to a ghost 
Either way imo Luffy is to Roger what Zoro is to Rayleigh. Oda continuously try to compare them just like he did with Roger and Rayleigh
Luffy also originally wanted to have the strongest crew or at least stronger than Shanks' and we're in a shonen where the motto is usually about surpassing previous generations
Infact Zoro is part of the worst generation with that same motto and as part of the main cast, it'd certainly happen


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Jun 5, 2016)

EOS Zoro would be world's 2nd strongest man (maybe 3rd) and will give Luffy extreme diff


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## Spirit King (Jun 5, 2016)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> EOS Zoro would be world's 2nd strongest man (maybe 3rd) and will give Luffy extreme diff


He won't be second, not even Mihawk was arguably 3rd until WB copped it (Kaidou and WB would both have to be solidedly above him to retain their titles). That's not to say he was but that's the absolute max he could be. Zorro will likely end up third, with Luffy's FV second (likely to Luffy needing to go all out against him).


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## Beast (Jun 5, 2016)

Doubt he will be top 3, top 5 is pushing it but top 3 sounds ridiculous.


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## Raiden34 (Jun 5, 2016)

Mihawk isn't even in top 10, nor EoS Zoro will be...

EoS Luffy and his EoS rivals will be at the top 5-10.

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## Dunno (Jun 6, 2016)

Spirit King said:


> He won't be second, not even Mihawk was arguably 3rd until WB copped it (Kaidou and WB would both have to be solidedly above him to retain their titles). That's not to say he was but that's the absolute max he could be. Zorro will likely end up third, with Luffy's FV second (likely to Luffy needing to go all out against him).



Kaido wouldn't have to be above anyone in order to retain his title. His title has got nothing to do with strength, but rather perception of strength. For his title to be legit, he has to be considered the WSC, unlike WB and Mihawk, who have to actually be the strongest in their respective field for their titles to hold true. "Is known as" =/= "is". Mihawk, or anyone else for that matter, could have been second after WB without anyone's title being false. Other than that, your post makes sense. Zoro will probably be top three, like Rayleigh most likely was.


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## Finalbeta (Jun 7, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Mihawk isn't even in top 10, nor EoS Zoro will be...
> 
> EoS Luffy and his EoS rivals will be at the top 5-10.


What do you mean by top 10
If we include Roger and other dead characters or not


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## Beast (Jun 7, 2016)

Dunno said:


> Kaido wouldn't have to be above anyone in order to retain his title. His title has got nothing to do with strength, but rather perception of strength. For his title to be legit, he has to be considered the WSC, unlike WB and Mihawk, who have to actually be the strongest in their respective field for their titles to hold true. "Is known as" =/= "is". Mihawk, or anyone else for that matter, could have been second after WB without anyone's title being false. Other than that, your post makes sense. Zoro will probably be top three, like Rayleigh most likely was.


Lol... what does this even mean?


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## Raiden34 (Jun 7, 2016)

Peter Pan said:


> What do you mean by top 10



4 Yonko
4 Admirals and Fleet Admiral
Yonko First Mates
Possibly boss of the CP 0
Dragon and Sabo

Mihawk isn't in top 10.

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## Finalbeta (Jun 7, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> 4 Yonko
> 4 Admirals and Fleet Admiral
> Yonko First Mates
> Possibly boss of the CP 0
> ...


Oh I agree with this
And I didn't get you were talking about him

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Dunno (Jun 7, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> Lol... what does this even mean?



It means what it says, but I'll try to simplify it for you: Kaido's title is "known as the WSC/WSLO", not "WSC/WSLO", so it's very possible for someone else to be the actual WSC/WSLO without any inconsistencies whatsoever. Basically, Kaido's title doesn't mean anything other than that the general populace believe that he is the strongest. It should not be too closely associated with WB's and Mihawk's titles, which are about actual strength.


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## Yuki (Jun 7, 2016)

Mihawks title is not really about strength though.

That title can only be won by people who want it.

There could be 100 swordsmen stronger than the holder, but as long as they don't challenge for it, they won't have it. 

WBs title is the same as Kaido's. people believed he was the strongest. He did not get that title by beating the last worlds strongest man. He got it because people believed he is in fact the worlds strongest man.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Jun 7, 2016)

by the way

"worlds ..." titles = Oda's way of saying worlds strongest individuals

WB = WSM
Mihawk = WSS
Kaido = WSC
Dragon = WMWM

after Whitebeard's death, Mihawk is undoubtably in the top 3

IMO Shanks is around Bobbins level so top 50

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## Dunno (Jun 7, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Mihawks title is not really about strength though.
> 
> That title can only be won by people who want it.
> 
> ...



Mihawk's title means that he is the World's strongest swordsman, which literally means that out of every man classified as a swordsman, he is the strongest. It's not an in-universe title, which would be arguable, but a canonical fact stated by the author. If there were one man classified as a swordsman who was stronger than Mihawk, then Mihawk wouldn't have the title of WSS. It has nothing at all to do with whether or not someone has challenged him or not. Canonical fact are canonical facts. 

WB's title is the exact same thing. Oda stated that he was the WSM, which makes it a canonical fact that he was. Whether or not he had fought other strong people or not is irrelevant, just as in Mihawk's case. 

Summary: 
- Oda has explicitly stated that Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world, which means that it's a canonical fact that Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world. 
- Oda has explicitly stated that Whitebeard was the strongest man in the world, which means that it's a canonical fact that Whitebeard was the strongest man in the world.
- Oda has explicitly stated that Kaido is known as the strongest living organism in the world, which means that it's a canonical fact that Kaido is known as the strongest living organism in the world.

Does everyone understand?


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 7, 2016)

Erkan12 said:


> Mihawk isn't even in top 10, nor EoS Zoro will be...
> 
> EoS Luffy and his EoS rivals will be at the top 5-10.


 Mihawk is tied with 1 and 2


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## Nox (Jun 7, 2016)

*Luffy* vs Zoro: High Difficulty
Sanji vs *Luffy*: High-Mid Difficulty
*Zoro* vs Sanji: Mid-High Difficulty


There isn't/won't be a single SH taking Luffy to extreme difficulty. Stop implying any of these niccuhs will be fucking him him like that when that hasn't been the case since Alabasta. Of this generation; BB, Sabo, Kidd, Law are the only ones I feel confident enough to say Extreme Diff.


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## Yuki (Jun 7, 2016)

Dunno said:


> Mihawk's title means that he is the World's strongest swordsman, which literally means that out of every man classified as a swordsman, he is the strongest. It's not an in-universe title, which would be arguable, but a canonical fact stated by the author.



Oda has only said that Mihawk is "The worlds strongest swordsmen." He is stating his in universe title. >_>

In fact every time Shanks is mentioned by Oda he says. "Mihawk is the worlds strongest swordsmen." Everytime he says anything about Shanks and his strength. He never actually even once says that. "Mihawk is stronger than Shanks."

It is an in universe title and Oda has been very smart in the way he plays it. By not outright saying anything.

Authors do this kinda shit all the fking time. It does not mean they are out right telling you something. 

And you are dumb as fk if you actually think you know what the authors thoughts are on the subject.

The amount of people that think the same is ridiculous and the amount of people that are always wrong and found out wrong is fking ridiculous.

In fact, it's is indeed fact that those the second guess the authors words are actually more correct that those that just take shit at face value.


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## Dunno (Jun 7, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Oda has only said that Mihawk is "The worlds strongest swordsmen." He is stating his in universe title. >_>
> 
> In fact every time Shanks is mentioned by Oda he says. "Mihawk is the worlds strongest swordsmen." Everytime he says anything about Shanks and his strength. He never actually even once says that. "Mihawk is stronger than Shanks."
> 
> ...



Nope, Oda wrote in an information box that Mihawk was the World's strongest swordsman. He didn't write anything about a title or about it being the perception of the world and he sure as hell didn't include any quotation marks. He wrote: The world's strongest swordsman, Mihawk. He doesn't write that Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, no, and it's quite clear that he's been portraying them as equals considering the way they haven't settled their score so to speak. They are basically the top tier equivalents of Dorry and Brogy. I don't claim to know what Oda's thinking, but I claim to know what Oda has explicitly stated in his manga, and that is that Mihawk is the de facto strongest swordsman in the world.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Yuki (Jun 7, 2016)

Dunno said:


> Nope, Oda wrote in an information box that Mihawk was the World's strongest swordsman. He didn't write anything about a title or about it being the perception of the world and he sure as hell didn't include any quotation marks. He wrote: The world's strongest swordsman, Mihawk. He doesn't write that Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, no, and it's quite clear that he's been portraying them as equals considering the way they haven't settled their score so to speak. They are basically the top tier equivalents of Dorry and Brogy. I don't claim to know what Oda's thinking, but I claim to know what Oda has explicitly stated in his manga, and that is that Mihawk is the de facto strongest swordsman in the world.



>_> Title is title.

Title is won by defeating the last worlds strongest swordsmen.

Mihawk never beat Shanks. Mihawk never even beat Vista.

Mihawk got that title by beating someone else we don't even know about.

Could very well have been EB Luffy level fighter.

He has the title, does not mean he is the actually strongest and is automatically stronger than the people who has never beat or even fought before.

Lets say Zoro does infact fight Mihawk next to EoS and beats him for the title.

Mihawk still holds the title until Zoro wins right?

So that means Mihawk is > EoS Zoro right? I mean... Mihawk still has the title at that time... So clearly it's true right? I mean why would Mihawk be called WSS right then if Zoro is actually stronger?

Ohhhh! You mean it's just a title and Mihawk is not stronger than EoS Zoro No way! But he has the title. D': Clearly Titles can never be wrong!


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## Dunno (Jun 7, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> >_> Title is title.
> 
> Title is won by defeating the last worlds strongest swordsmen.
> 
> ...



Mihawk both has an in-universe title which says that he is the WSS, and Oda has also stated it. There's a title, and there's a fact. Mihawk became the WSS as soon as Oda stated that he was the WSS. It's a canonical fact, just like Shanks being a Yonkou or Kizaru being an Admiral. Just how much does it take to convince you of something? Oda has explicitly stated that Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world. It is a fact and there's no denying it. It's as true as the fact that Luffy beat Lucci or that Crocodile was a Shichibukai. Facts are facts, no matter what you say you can't change that. Right before Zoro beats Mihawk, Mihawk will still probably have his in-universe title (although it might be contested by Zoro), but Oda won't explicitly state that he is the WSS so he won't have his factual status as the WSS any longer. 

Let me clarify: There's a difference between an in-universe title, and a canonical fact. Mihawk has an in-universe title which states the he is the WSS, this title can be wrong. It is also a canonical fact that he is the WSS, this fact cannot be wrong.


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## Yuki (Jun 7, 2016)

Dunno said:


> Mihawk both has an in-universe title which says that he is the WSS, and Oda has also stated it. There's a title, and there's a fact. Mihawk became the WSS as soon as Oda stated that he was the WSS. It's a canonical fact, just like Shanks being a Yonkou or Kizaru being an Admiral. Just how much does it take to convince you of something? Oda has explicitly stated that Mihawk is the strongest swordsman in the world. It is a fact and there's no denying it. It's as true as the fact that Luffy beat Lucci or that Crocodile was a Shichibukai. Facts are facts, no matter what you say you can't change that. Right before Zoro beats Mihawk, Mihawk will still probably have his in-universe title (although it might be contested by Zoro), but Oda won't explicitly state that he is the WSS so he won't have his factual status as the WSS any longer.
> 
> Let me clarify: There's a difference between an in-universe title, and a canonical fact. Mihawk has an in-universe title which states the he is the WSS, this title can be wrong. It is also a canonical fact that he is the WSS, this fact cannot be wrong.



I already addressed the out of universe part.

Guess you have nothing more to add. 

Agree to disagree and move on.


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## Dunno (Jun 8, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> I already addressed the out of universe part.
> 
> Guess you have nothing more to add.
> 
> Agree to disagree and move on.



Nope, I don't agree to disagree. There are some thing that you can disagree about, and there are some that you can't. This is one of the latter. If you don't consider author statements as canon, then there is almost no canon in the entirety of the series! There is no way of actually knowing the names of any character or places or the ranks or stations of anyone. Unless you consider facts to be facts, you can't seriously discuss anything at all. Could you please provide an example of anything you consider to be a fact in One Piece?


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## Yuki (Jun 8, 2016)

Dunno said:


> Nope, I don't agree to disagree. There are some thing that you can disagree about, and there are some that you can't. This is one of the latter. If you don't consider author statements as canon, then there is almost no canon in the entirety of the series! There is no way of actually knowing the names of any character or places or the ranks or stations of anyone. Unless you consider facts to be facts, you can't seriously discuss anything at all. Could you please provide an example of anything you consider to be a fact in One Piece?



No, this being the latter is entirely your opinion.

I consider that authors play mind games sometimes and sometimes don't even mean what they say to bring intensity to their fking work.

It's a common author mind trick and as as said. THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME! Every single author that's ever fking existed...

The writer of games of thrones said a character is not who is is simply to disguise who the character was as he never wanted people knowing. He said Jon Snow was dead, when surprise surprise was not.

They... do... it... all... the... time.

Sabo was said to be fking dead in a fking databook. OH LOOK!

Grim from Bleach was said to be dead. OH LOOK!

What Oda pretty much said when he said it out of manga is this.

Shanks has amazing swordsmanship. Mihawk has the worlds strongest swordsmen title.

That tells us nothing that we don't already know and barely even hints at it being something else.


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## Dunno (Jun 8, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> No, this being the latter is entirely your opinion.
> 
> I consider that authors play mind games sometimes and sometimes don't even mean what they say to bring intensity to their fking work.
> 
> ...



So how do we even know that Shanks is a one-armed pirate? He might as well be the ex-admiral with the afro, right? Or he might be the weird ugly dude with the Noro Noro? Maybe admirals don't even exist, and maybe pirates don't either. Are there any other situations in which you don't consider author statements facts or is it just in this one particular case? Are there any facts in One Piece? 

Are you certain that the main character's name is Luffy? Are you sure that the main character has a Devil Fruit? Do you know if Devil Fruits exists or not? Because otherwise you might as well claim exactly anything and it would make sense.


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## Dunno (Jun 8, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Oh fuck off... How old are you? 4?



It's really easy questions to answer. Do you believe that there are any facts in One Piece? Do you consider any other author statement in One Piece to be false, or is it just this specific statement? Do you avoid to answer these questions time and time again because you've realised that you are wrong and that you're only holding on to your opinion because of your dislike for Mihawk?

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## Tenma (Jun 8, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> Mihawks title is not really about strength though.
> 
> That title can only be won by people who want it.
> 
> ...



People believe Mihawk is the WSS though. We don't know how he got his title (though its implied he got it through legendary duels with Shanks like WB duels with Roger) but the idea that he only has it because noone wants the title is ridiculous and not worth considering.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Creative 1


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## Yuki (Jun 8, 2016)

Tenma said:


> People believe Mihawk is the WSS though. We don't know how he got his title (though its implied he got it through legendary duels with Shanks like WB duels with Roger) but the idea that he only has it because noone wants the title is ridiculous and not worth considering.



I didn't say none wants the title.

Does Fugi want the title?

Does Shanks seem like he wants the title?

Those are the strongest characters that use swords other than Mihawk him self.

As long as those two don't give a shit about the title, then that's all that matters.

Mihawk is stronger than anyone that wants the title.

For me, that's what it is.

As with all titles since title history began.

No one has ever gained a title that they didn't want. Even more so a world title.


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## Tenma (Jun 8, 2016)

Oda isn't fucking Togashi. He isn't going to claim Mihawk is the WSS and Zoro's lifelong goal, only for the title to turn out to be a sham because...Shanks and Fujitora didn't want it. Zoro claiming the title will make him literally the strongest swordsman in the world, no small print about it. Have some damn perspective and realise how much Zoro's goal gets devalued if WSS really means 'World's Strongest Guy who wanted a Fancy Title'.

And we don't know how Mihawk got the title, or how Kaido or WB got their titles. You are assuming Mihawk beat the previous holder. If Zoro went up and beat Kaido tomorrow I don't think he'd need to fight Mihawk again to have the title. Going after the current title holder is just the most logical way of doing so.

Either way if Mihawk isn't the true WSS it won't be because 2 widely feared and famed fighters didn't want it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Yuki (Jun 8, 2016)

Tenma said:


> Oda isn't fucking Togashi. He isn't going to claim Mihawk is the WSS and Zoro's lifelong goal, only for the title to turn out to be a sham because...Shanks and Fujitora didn't want it. Zoro claiming the title will make him literally the strongest swordsman in the world, no small print about it. Have some damn perspective and realise how much Zoro's goal gets devalued if WSS really means 'World's Strongest Guy who wanted a Fancy Title'.
> 
> And we don't know how Mihawk got the title, or how Kaido or WB got their titles. You are assuming Mihawk beat the previous holder. If Zoro went up and beat Kaido tomorrow I don't think he'd need to fight Mihawk again to have the title. Going after the current title holder is just the most logical way of doing so.
> 
> Either way if Mihawk isn't the true WSS it won't be because 2 widely feared and famed fighters didn't want it.



I just hope next time Shanks is on screen it says. "Worlds strongest man." Next to his name. 

Then the Mihawk fanboys will be on the Mihawk is not human wagon.


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## Shanks (Jun 8, 2016)

HisMajestyMihawk said:


> by the way
> 
> "worlds ..." titles = Oda's way of saying worlds strongest individuals
> 
> ...


Correction, title is for that time.

So for example, WB's is WSM during MF, but it doesn't mean other Youkou can't reach or surpass that during the time skip.

As far as Mihawk is concern, he was given that title back in east blue at the same time don cred was given his title as the strongest man in the world, so Mihawk should be around his level.


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## Shanks (Jun 8, 2016)

Problem here is not whether Mihawk is the strongest swordsman or not. Problem is people automatically believe the WSS is Yonkou level. The other problem is that people believe Mihawk can beat anyone holding a sword.

Not saying Mihawk is Jozu level, but even if he is, he will still be the WSS and Zoro could still surpass him and reach admiral level to defeat either kizaru or Fuji in the final war.


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## Shanks (Jun 8, 2016)

Btw Garp was given the title as 'Legendary Hero of the Marines' yet I never see anyone wank him much as Mihawk.


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## Kaiser (Jun 8, 2016)

The issue with Shanks fanboys is that they want so much their characters to be stronger than everyone that they're ready to deny any kind of implications suggesting otherwise
That's why you'd see bullshits like Shanks is stronger than world strongest man Whitebeard with bullshits excuses like "he surpassed him", "Whitebeard got that title 22years ago" and so on
That's why they were on suicide watch when Kaido was introduced as the current strongest(and still is with bullshit excuses like "it doesn't count humans")
Don't even want to know what will happen if we get the flashback of Mihawk defeating Shanks to gain his "WSS" title
The amount of damage control would be unreal

PS: Not saying it's necessarily the case, but i always find it laughable when people think that possibility is unlikely

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## Yuki (Jun 8, 2016)

Was  not too long ago that 90% of this forum thought Shanks was > Mihawk.

Now people that use to say it have for no reason changed their opinion and now suddenly the other people are stupid for thinking otherwise.

Also, i don't remember anyone saying Shanks was stronger than WB.

I see a lot of people saying Akainu was though.

Where are you on that Kaiser?

Oh wait, that's right it's not Shanks so who cares.


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## Kaiser (Jun 8, 2016)

It's the difference in their portrayal during the war arc that changed the majority's opinion, but portrayal in itself remains virtual until concrete evidences and can change depending on scenarios

I never called anyone who think Shanks > Mihawk stupid. Infact i welcome all possibilities(Shanks > Mihawk, Shanks ~ Mihawk, Mihawk > Shanks).

What i'm saying however is that the Mihawk > Shanks possibility isn't impossible either, so let's not act as if it was especially when there are heavy implications going to that direction


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## Yuki (Jun 8, 2016)

Kaiser said:


> It's the difference in their portrayal during the war arc that changed the majority's opinion, but portrayal in itself remains virtual until concrete evidences and can change depending on scenarios
> 
> I never called anyone who think Shanks > Mihawk stupid. Infact i welcome all possibilities(Shanks > Mihawk, Shanks ~ Mihawk, Mihawk > Shanks).
> 
> What i'm saying however is that the Mihawk > Shanks possibility isn't impossible either, so let's not act as if it was especially when there are heavy implications going to that direction



And i've never said it was. 

I just don't believe it. 

Four yonko are the four greatest pirates in the world. 

This is a manga about pirates in a pirate era and those four are the best. So i'd consider them stronger than anyone that is not a yonko. Admirals and Mihawk are there as well at the top. But Imo they are the peak of the manga.


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## Kaiser (Jun 8, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> And i've never said it was.
> 
> I just don't believe it.
> 
> ...


The yonko are the 4greatest pirates not only due to their individual power, but also their great influence in the new world
You can't become a yonko without a strong crew and territorial control(in the new world)
In Shonen in general, there exist type of people who show off their power while acting individually and there exist other types who grow largely in power while leading a group
Mihawk comes from the former category. He is a lone wolf who seem to only care about his individual power. That's why he'd never become a yonko or compete with one even if he was individually stronger than one
So while i respect your view, i don't think it necessarily places a yonko above Mihawk


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## Beast (Jun 8, 2016)

Dunno said:


> It means what it says, but I'll try to simplify it for you: Kaido's title is "known as the WSC/WSLO", not "WSC/WSLO", so it's very possible for someone else to be the actual WSC/WSLO without any inconsistencies whatsoever. Basically, Kaido's title doesn't mean anything other than that the general populace believe that he is the strongest. It should not be too closely associated with WB's and Mihawk's titles, which are about actual strength.


1v1 always bet on Kaidou... neither Mihawk or WB got the same intro as Kaidou. Doubting his title is the same as doubting Mihawks or WB as theyre as questionable or even more so compared to Kaidou giving their intro... not sure whether it's a translation error or not but given the intro no matter what translation you've read, Kaidous title holds the same weight if not more than either Mihawks or WB.

As far as I remember Roger also used a sword and so does Rayleigh but I doubt Mihawk went on to fight them to gain the title as he didn't even see Vista before till the war and look how far his title got him than. 

Don't think he could ever stomp Vista even if he was serious against him.


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## Raiden34 (Jun 8, 2016)

Kaiser said:


> The yonko are the 4greatest pirates not only due to their individual power, but also their great influence in the new world
> You can't become a yonko without a strong crew and territorial control(in the new world)
> In Shonen in general, there exist type of people who show off their power while acting individually and there exist other types who grow largely in power while leading a group
> Mihawk comes from the former category. He is a lone wolf who seem to only care about his individual power. That's why he'd never become a yonko or compete with one even if he was individually stronger than one
> So while i respect your view, i don't think it necessarily places a yonko above Mihawk


İf that was true then Marco is an idiot to send Vista alone to face with Mihawk, just imagine that Marco is ordering to Vista that he has to face Shanks, Kaido, Big Mom or Current Teach.

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## Dunno (Jun 8, 2016)

Juvia. said:


> 1. I don't dislike Mihawk.
> 
> 2. These things don't happen 24/7 There are just not 100 of them flying around. But yes there was. That Sabo was still alive. I believed it even though Oda told us he was dead. And oh look what happened. That along with this, was also another hot topic even though it was directly stated that he was fucking dead.
> 
> 3. Obviously there are some facts. But guess what? When facts are easy to spot you don't have the author avoiding the question and giving us some other BS answer. Nor do you have half of your fucking fandom wondering a certain fucking topic.



As far as I know, Oda never explicitly stated in the manga that Sabo was dead. He might have hinted at it or had characters say so, but he didn't explicitly state so himself. If you disagree, you are welcome to provide a scan. Oda avoids all questions regarding power levels, so of course he wouldn't answer a Shanks vs Mihawk question. 

Number three is the exact point I've been trying to make regarding these titles. When Oda introduced WB, he said: The world's strongest man, Whitebeard. When he introduced Mihawk, he said: The world's strongest swordsman, Mihawk. But when he introduced Kaido, he said: The man known as the strongest living organism, people say that you should always bet on him in a 1v1, Kaido. Whitebeard's and Mihawk's titles are crystal clear, but when it comes to Kaido's, Oda specifically avoided actually stating anything about Kaido's strength. 

The only reason half the fandom believes that Mihawk isn't the WSS is because they hate him and are extremely biased to the point of not even accepting author statements as facts regarding this topic.


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## Dunno (Jun 8, 2016)

MasterBeast said:


> 1v1 always bet on Kaidou... neither Mihawk or WB got the same intro as Kaidou. Doubting his title is the same as doubting Mihawks or WB as theyre as questionable or even more so compared to Kaidou giving their intro... not sure whether it's a translation error or not but given the intro no matter what translation you've read, Kaidous title holds the same weight if not more than either Mihawks or WB.
> 
> As far as I remember Roger also used a sword and so does Rayleigh but I doubt Mihawk went on to fight them to gain the title as he didn't even see Vista before till the war and look how far his title got him than.
> 
> Don't think he could ever stomp Vista even if he was serious against him.



"People say, in a 1v1 always bet on Kaido." How can you be so blind as to not see the difference between Oda stating that someone is something and Oda stating that the people in the OP world believes someone to be something. You are either extremely stupid or completely dishonest, pick one. completely

I'll reiterate what I have said countless times: 
- Oda explicitly stated that WB was the WSM.
- Oda explicitly stated that Mihawk is the WSS. 
- Oda explicitly stated that Kaido is the MKatWSLOWPSTYSABOia1v1 (Man Known as the World's Strongest Living Organism Whom People Say That You Should Always Bet On in a 1v1.) 

Oda has stated exactly nothing about Kaido's strength.


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## Amol (Jun 8, 2016)

So why this became Shanks vs Mihawk again?
OT :  I believe Prime Ray is on Old WB level. That is where EoS Zoro would be.
Kizaru is one of the C3 Admiral.
That is where EoS Sanji would be.
EoS Luffy will surpass Roger by small margin.
So basically,
EoS Luffy will High(mid) diff EoS Zoro.
EoS Luffy will Mid(high) diff EoS Sanji.
Yes I know I am saying that Sanji won't give High diff fight to Pirate King. I don't believe any Admiral(and some Yonkou)  can give that much diff to PK level.
_They were giving High diff to Old WB_. Those who can give extreme diff to Old WB only can give High diff to Primebeard+ character.
It is simple mathematics tbh.
Sanji's current portrayal supports that.
Every single member of M3 is on Admiral level if that isn't obvious.
Pretty strong crew Pirate King Luffy will have there.

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## Captain Altintop (Jun 8, 2016)

EoS Luffy beats EoS Zoro with high ( mid-high ) diff.
EoS Luffy beats EoS Sanji with high ( low ) diff.
EoS Zoro beats EoS Sanji with high ( high ) diff.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Jun 8, 2016)

One Piece is a manga about swordsmen (PK Roger was a swordsmen)

Mihawk = strongest swordsman 

Mihawk > Shanks (best hakispitsbutter)

One Piece is not about hakispitsbambooszers  so Shanks cant be too strong anyways

Reactions: Like 2


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## Soca (Jun 8, 2016)

Christ


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