# Current Orochimaru vs Itachi



## Turrin (Jun 11, 2013)

The Ultimate Rematch

Location: VOTE
Starting Distance: They Start on the Opposing statues head
Mind-set: IC, but intent to kill
Knowledge: Manga (keeping in mind Orochimaru has all the knowledge he gained while inside Kabuto).
Conditions: Itachi is not i'll and his eyesight is good, his stamina may be better depending on poster opinion, but nothing drastic. Orochimaru has a new Zetsu body with Hashi DNA so his stamina may also be better, but for the sake of argument let's assuming again nothing super drastic. Orochimaru also has his arms back and can summon Edo Tobirama and Edo Hiruzen (who are at nearly full power). 

Who wins this time around?


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## Doge (Jun 11, 2013)

Either Orochimaru summons a Hokage or he loses.


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## Csdabest (Jun 11, 2013)

Itachi Cast genjutsu on Orochimaru again. Makes Orochimaru summons the edo kages. Then commands the edo kages to free themselves from Edo tensei like Uchiha Madara did. Itachi releases Orochimaru from Genjutsu and has a bag of popcorn and comfortable seat and says to orochimaru with an evil  grin......"Start"


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## Mithos (Jun 11, 2013)

Orochimaru summons Hiruzen and Tobirama and that's the end of Itachi. There's no way he can fight against all 3 of them, when any of them could give him a good fight individually. 

Orochimaru wins without much trouble.


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## Krippy (Jun 11, 2013)

Orochimaru busts out the Edo-kages and they all get barbeque'd by Amaterasu or Totsuka blitzed.

They need more feats to be able to complete with MS Haxx.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 11, 2013)

Tobirama has like no feats, so he shouldn't even be discussed in the NBD unless that changes, and Hiruzen is too weak to make any difference against Itachi whatsoever.

So even if Orochimaru manages to pull off Edo Tensei, all of them are going to get steamrolled by Susano'o.

But, chances are, the match goes something like this...


Orochimaru: (_Shit... I'd better use the Edo Tensei right away!_)

Itachi: I won't let you use the Edo Tensei.


*Spoiler*: _The fight then goes like this_ 



[YOUTUBE]fAao9QIbWUc[/YOUTUBE]






Itachi destroys Orochimaru before he can do anything.




Matto-sama said:


> Orochimaru summons Hiruzen and Tobirama and that's the end of Itachi. There's no way he can fight against all 3 of them, when any of them could give him a good fight individually.
> 
> Orochimaru wins without much trouble.



Hiruzen is not giving Itachi a "good fight" by himself.

Orochimaru is not giving Itachi a "good fight" by himself (he's proven this twice).

Tobirama, with scarcely any feats at all save for a couple of B-Rank Suiton Ninjutsu, isn't doing anything here.

Itachi obliterates them.


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## trance (Jun 11, 2013)

Orochimaru's losses to Itachi are CIS/PIS and nothing more. Tobirama killed Izuna 1v1 and IIRC, Izuna had the MS and was said to be near equal with his brother and the strongest in the clan after Madara.

Seriously, the Itachi wank needs to stop. He's on par with the Sannin at best, just compare Jiraiya's with Itachi's; they're comparable. Orochimaru and Tsunade are not very far from them.

Itachi's best feats don't put him on such a high level.

Itachi dies in this one.


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## αce (Jun 11, 2013)

Tobirama is his only hope since I highly doubt Hashirama is going to do what Orochimaru wants him to.


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## trance (Jun 11, 2013)

αce said:


> Tobirama is his only hope since I highly doubt Hashirama is going to do what Orochimaru wants him to.



Hashirama's not even in the OP.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 11, 2013)

Lazers said:


> Orochimaru's losses to Itachi are CIS/PIS and nothing more.



Orochimaru explicitly stated that Itachi was stronger than him.

And there really isn't any CIS/PIS about getting blitzed, unless you want to argue Orochimaru was conveniently daydreaming and just didn't notice, which is going to require some proof to back it up.



> Tobirama killed Izuna 1v1 and IIRC, Izuna had the MS and was said to be near equal with his brother and the strongest in the clan after Madara.



The thing is, we have no idea how strong either of them were at the time; this was apparently before Madara awakened EMS.

The circumstances of Tobirama defeating Izuna are also unknown; it happened during what was apparently a large-scale battle between the Uchiha and Senju clans, and we only get to see the part where Tobirama is gutting him like a trout.

And this still tells us nothing about Tobirama's abilities, so we have nothing to discuss here except vague, conjectural powerscaling with a younger version of Madara with a less-developed Doujutsu whose power we have absolutely no way of measuring.



> Seriously, the Itachi wank needs to stop. He's on par with the Sannin at best,



No, he's pretty blatantly superior to any of the Sannin, although the argument that he is Jiraiya's peer is (admittedly) not _entirely_ baseless.



> just compare Jiraiya's with Itachi's; they're comparable.



...Compare their what? I assume you mean the databook stats.

There is nothing comparable about their stats (Itachi maxes-out in all but three categories (one of which is almost maxed [Taijutsu] and the other of which is irrelevant because Itachi's best moves don't rely on it [Power]) while J-man only maxes-out in two of them), and the databook stats don't even take specific Jutsu into consideration (which pretty much define which shinobi is able to beat which, glaring power differences notwithstanding).

You also seem to be under the mistaken impression that adding up their stats to get the total value is somehow important, even though they aren't added-up anywhere in the official source material and are instead seperated into eight distinct and unequivocal categories (which is for the obvious reason that they are distinct and unequivocal; a 5 in Genjutsu is not interchangeable with a 5 in Speed).

To say nothing of the obvious fact that having the same scores doesn't mean dog dick when each score represents a wide range of values rather than any specific one.



> Orochimaru and Tsunade are not very far from them.



Orochimaru and Tsunade are very far from Itachi.

I would say Jiraiya is, too.



> Itachi's best feats don't put him on such a high level.



Beating Hebi Sasuke via exhaustion and then one-paneling Orochimaru along with his strongest Jutsu while blind, sick, jobbing, and nearly dead pretty clearly puts him on such a high level.

In fact, just the "one-paneling Orochimaru" part puts him on a higher level than any of the Sannin.



> Itachi dies in this one.



Itachi rapes.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 11, 2013)

> Orochimaru explicitly stated that Itachi was stronger than him.


There is no such thing as stronger. There's only match-ups. 

Orochimaru raised the dead and is a walking immortal. 

In that regard, no one is stronger.

Itachi mastered time-altering Genjutsu and perfected his Susano. 

In that regard, no one is stronger.

The bullshit about Sanin vs. Itachi is nothing more than a popularity contest. They're all on the same level, they're all S-rank, and they can all kill each other under different circumstances. Who kills who more doesn't mean that particular ninja is stronger- it simply means he/she is a bad match up.


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## αce (Jun 11, 2013)

> Hashirama's not even in the OP.


Herpa.


Well okay. I mean, I'm not sure why anyone would consider this a stomp though. This is the battledome after all and I stand by Tsukiyomi and genjutsu being the most overpowered thing feat wise next to Kamui. And Tobirama has about 0 feats at this point. So basically you have Hiruzen who has massively outdated feats and a Tobirama who has no feats that have to break through a Susano-o that tanked a Kirin blast. 

If we're using the battledome mentality here, _none_ of them are breaking Susano-o or even scratching it for that matter. 










Portrayal wise Tobirama probably kills Itachi on his own though while Orochimaru eats a cookie.


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## joshhookway (Jun 11, 2013)

Orochimaru>Kabuto>Itachi

Unless you really think itachi can beat prime kabuto


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## Turrin (Jun 11, 2013)

Guys do Hiruzen and Tobirama need feats. Can't we assume that 3 Hokage level warriors (Oro, Tobi, and Hiruzen) are too much for Itachi to handle.


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## Trojan (Jun 11, 2013)

Tobirama can't even use his FTG when he's under Oro's control! 
and we did not see much from Hiruzen. (though if he's at his full power he STOMPS the life out of Itachi.)

and I still don't know what the different between this oro and the oro that fought Hiruzen honestly. 
nor do I know the different between healthy Itachi and Itachi in part 1 since he was healthy. 

so, yes, I would go with Itachi.


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## αce (Jun 11, 2013)

Yes based on portrayal. But if people are basing all their assumptions on feats, which happens most of the time here anyways, then no, Itachi probably wins. 


It's funny though because even with all these new found abilities, if Itachi met Orochimaru in the manga I think we all know what the outcome would be every single time. Kishi doesn't disappoint.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 11, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Guys do Hiruzen and Tobirama need feats. Can't we assume that 3 Hokage level warriors (Oro, Tobi, and Hiruzen) are too much for Itachi to handle.


Tobirama arguably warps around the battlefield while Hiruzen spams unlimited bunshins who char the battlefield with superheated katons. This, while Orochimaru leeches underground, pops back up and drops a massive snake FCD atop Itachi from behind, while spamming Mokuton underneath his Susano and WS toxins around the base level. 

Itachi wouldn't be able to seal either of the kages with the other two causing issues. They wouldn't put the foot off the gas to allow Itachi any variant of an offensive approach with Totsuka. 

That's not feats, that's just logic. 

Once the feats ensue, it will be even more obvious how ridiculous this thread is.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 11, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> There is no such thing as stronger. There's only match-ups.



No, there is such a thing as "stronger."

Madara is stronger than Konohamaru.

Bruce Lee is stronger than Justin Bieber.

And, as I pointed out, Orochimaru explicitly stated that Itachi was stronger than him.



> Orochimaru raised the dead and is a walking immortal.



He also has no way to stop Itachi from blitzing and mindfucking or sealing him, making those abilities wholly irrelevant.



> In that regard, no one is stronger.



No, Itachi is stronger, as Orochimaru himself deferred and as we have conveniently witnessed on two seperate occasions.



> Itachi mastered time-altering Genjutsu and perfected his Susano.
> 
> In that regard, no one is stronger.



Given that he has the speed and the skill to execute these powers on Orochimaru and the latter cannot stop him, no; Itachi is stronger.



> The bullshit about Sanin vs. Itachi is nothing more than a popularity contest. They're all on the same level, they're all S-rank, and they can all kill each other under different circumstances. Who kills who more doesn't mean that particular ninja is stronger- it simply means he/she is a bad match up.



When it gets to the point that one shinobi is going to dominate another 99% of the time under most circumstances where both are free to exercise their abilities to their fullest extents and with as little outside interference as possible, the "match-ups" cease to be an adequate explanation for the observed outcome.

When you have one combatant who is so overwhelmingly superior to the other by every conceivably-relevant criterion that they dominate simply by virtue of choosing to, there is a clear-cut, undeniable difference in power.

Even if it weren't quite that bad, it's not impossible to tell when someone is stronger than someone else.



joshhookway said:


> Orochimaru>Kabuto>Itachi
> 
> Unless you really think itachi can beat prime kabuto



Well...yeah.

If Itachi's allowed to Totsuka his ass and doesn't have to go through all that Izanami bullshit, and if he actually knows about Kabuto's abilities this time instead of Kabuto being the only one with intel, then yeah, I don't see why not.

Although Kabuto>Orochimaru, so there's a crucial flaw in that argument anyway.



Turrin said:


> Guys do Hiruzen and Tobirama need feats. Can't we assume that 3 Hokage level warriors (Oro, Tobi, and Hiruzen) are too much for Itachi to handle.



Hiruzen's exhibition thus far has been the poorest of the five Hokage (including Tsunade) and perhaps even the poorest of ANY Kage with the arguable exceptions of Mei and Gaara's dad.

And besides the lack of feats, we have no way to even powerscale Tobirama.

I will grant you this: Tobirama is probably _at least_ strong enough to give Itachi a run for his money one-on-one, if not beat him. However, it's also possible he might not be, and if that's the case, what are they going to do? Pool their inferiority and beat Itachi with the sum? That's not how it works. Without feats to show Tobirama's specific abilities and explain how he could be a useful asset to the team, we have nothing to go on except "He might be stronger or he might not be" while Orochimaru and Hiruzen may as well just stand around twerking at Itachi until he gets pissed and seals them all.


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## trance (Jun 11, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Orochimaru explicitly stated that Itachi was stronger than him.
> 
> And there really isn't any CIS/PIS about getting blitzed, unless you want to argue Orochimaru was conveniently daydreaming and just didn't notice, which is going to require some proof to back it up.
> 
> ...



That "fight" between them is a joke. At most, it was a scuffle. You can't base someone's strength as being way above a scuffle that lasted 15 seconds. Also, it was so full of CIS, it's not even funny.

Orochimaru has many methods of attacking and he chooses a direct front attack? 

Your argument about Itachi and the Sannin is very contradictory. You say that he is on a higher level than each of them yet you say he is Jiraiya's peer?

Itachi openly admitted that a tie is the best he can do against Jiraiya. As for Jiraiya, he lost to Pain but later admitted that Jiraiya would've won if he knowledge of all six. This renders Itachi's statement null as Pain is stronger than he is. Unless you possibly think Itachi > Pain?

With Tsunade's current feats, she could easily break Madara's Susanoo and even mamaged to land what would've been a fatal blow. Also, nothing he had could beat her regeneration (until he went to Perfect Susanoo) and it's a very well known fact Madara > Itachi.

Point acknowledged about Tobirama.


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## αce (Jun 11, 2013)

Well I had a good laugh from this thread. Back to reality.


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## αce (Jun 11, 2013)

Also I'm not exactly sure why it's so hard for people to admit that Itachi was superior to Orochimaru. If it was said in the manga just get the sticks out of your asses and accept it. Orochimaru had Edo Tensei when he initiated his plan to go after Sasuke yet didn't even dare go after Itachi (hence why he went for Sasuke) yet he had the balls to go into Konoha and challenge Hiruzen right after. 

I'll let you figure out the implications. Orochimaru had Edo Tensei and still didn't bother chasing Itachi.


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## Antos (Jun 11, 2013)

see hered the thin Itachi already proved that he can kill orochi before well before he can even finish a sentence and last time i checked orochi can't fight blind like kabuto and even so the moment he catches orochi he can just make him undo edo than agian see as they are hokage there isn't really any need to do that what can be better than 4 edo hokages protecting the village.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 11, 2013)

Lazers said:


> That "fight" between them is a joke. At most, it was a scuffle. You can't base someone's strength as being way above a scuffle that lasted 15 seconds.



The reason it lasted 15 seconds is because Itachi raped Orochimaru.



> Also, it was so full of CIS, it's not even funny.



CIS was the only thing protecting Orochimaru from getting sealed a decade earlier in his first encounter with Itachi.

Remove CIS and it's just Itachi speedblitzing and sealing him over and over and over and over again, no matter how many times you rewind.



> Orochimaru has many methods of attacking and he chooses a direct front attack?



Although it sounds counterintuitive, most shinobi seem to do that in this manga.

Also, we don't know who actually initiated that confrontation or why. Orochimaru may not have had that choice.



> Your argument about Itachi and the Sannin is very contradictory. You say that he is on a higher level than each of them yet you say he is Jiraiya's peer?



No; I said that the notion of Itachi being Jiraiya's peer is not entirely baseless. Personally, I don't agree with it and I think the manga offers a great deal to contradict it.



> Itachi openly admitted that a tie is the best he can do against Jiraiya.



Which addresses the outcome of a particular encounter and says nothing about a direct power comparison.

Jiraiya could've beaten Pain, too. Is he stronger than Pain? Not even close. The circumstances of the encounter and the way Jiraiya chose to fight Pain made that outcome possible.

Jiraiya is one of those shinobi whose abilities are dangerous to shinobi outside his weight class, particularly those like Itachi, whose poor stamina and physical health makes him ill-equipped to fight protracted battles against the guerilla-style hide-and-seek approach for which J-man has such an affinity.

Recognizing the threat he posed, Itachi duely credited Jiraiya as someone who he would be unlikely to defeat without the expense of his own life, but he did NOT say they were equals or even close in power.



> As for Jiraiya, he lost to Pain but later admitted that Jiraiya would've won if he knowledge of all six. This renders Itachi's statement null as Pain is stronger than he is. Unless you possibly think Itachi > Pain?



I would consider living Itachi and the Pain Rikudou to be pretty comparable in power, actually.



> With Tsunade's current feats, she could easily break Madara's Susanoo and even mamaged to land what would've been a fatal blow. Also, nothing he had could beat her regeneration (until he went to Perfect Susanoo) and it's a very well known fact Madara > Itachi.



Madara was also using an incomplete version of Susano'o, and I don't remember Tsunade being able to breach any version except the basic ribcage anyway.

And honestly, Madara wasn't taking her or the other Kage seriously in that fight, anyway.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 11, 2013)

αce said:


> Orochimaru had Edo Tensei when he initiated his plan to go after Sasuke yet didn't even dare go after Itachi (hence why he went for Sasuke) yet he had the balls to go into Konoha and challenge Hiruzen right after.
> 
> I'll let you figure out the implications. Orochimaru had Edo Tensei and still didn't bother chasing Itachi.



And this is because Edo Tensei would make no difference.

Itachi would waste Orochimaru before he even got a chance to use it. And if Orochimaru tried ambushing him with the Edo Tensei remotely, Itachi would just flee with a clone feint if he couldn't beat them.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 11, 2013)

Actually, there's really only one answer to this thread:


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## Mithos (Jun 11, 2013)

αce said:


> Also I'm not exactly sure why it's so hard for people to admit that Itachi was superior to Orochimaru. If it was said in the manga just get the sticks out of your asses and accept it. Orochimaru had Edo Tensei when he initiated his plan to go after Sasuke yet didn't even dare go after Itachi (hence why he went for Sasuke) yet he had the balls to go into Konoha and challenge Hiruzen right after.
> 
> I'll let you figure out the implications. Orochimaru had Edo Tensei and still didn't bother chasing Itachi.



You have to take into account though the goal is to steal Itachi's body, not kill him. 

He likely didn't think he'd be able to trump Itachi in the ritual. 

And if you're going to talk about Orochimaru not wanting to fight Itachi, he thought he would be able to kill him with Yamata no Orochi and wasn't worried at all. 

The gap between them is very small, and adding even a single Kage level edo allows Orochimaru to win in almost every circumstance.



Nikushimi said:


> And this is because Edo Tensei would make no difference.
> 
> Itachi would waste Orochimaru before he even got a chance to use it. And if Orochimaru tried ambushing him with the Edo Tensei remotely, Itachi would just flee with a clone feint if he couldn't beat them.



Ridiculous. 

How does he waste him before he can use it? Nothing outside Totsuka is taking him down. And with knowledge, he won't get hit. He can erect Rashoumon gates or use Leech All Creation to escape and gain distance. He also has summons - including an enormous wall of thousands of snakes - to buy him time. It's not like summoning them takes a long time. 

Fleeing is irrelevant. If Oro's goal was to escape Itachi, he'd be able to practically every time too.


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## Nikushimi (Jun 11, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> You have to take into account though the goal is to steal Itachi's body, not kill him.
> 
> He likely didn't think he'd be able to trump Itachi in the ritual.



When Sasuke overpowered Orochimaru in the ritual space, all Orochimaru did was scream about how impossible it was that he could be defeated in his own world.

Based on that, I'm not sure that concern ever crossed his mind.



> And if you're going to talk about Orochimaru not wanting to fight Itachi, he thought he would be able to kill him with Yamata no Orochi and wasn't worried at all.



Given the condition Itachi was in at the time, I don't see why this is surprising.

And if we just go by that attitude, Sasuke thought he could beat Itachi, too...

In fact, even after watching Itachi dismantle the Yamata no Jutsu and stuff Oro in a bottle, pretty much the first thing Sasuke did was try to stab Susano'o with his sword.

I wouldn't put too much stock in that kind of premature confidence.



> The gap between them is very small, and adding even a single Kage level edo allows Orochimaru to win in almost every circumstance.



Er, I don't see how anyone could reach that conclusion, given that defeating Orochimaru has never amounted to much more than "Turn on hax and blitz" for Itachi in the past.



> Ridiculous.
> 
> How does he waste him before he can use it?



_Tsubaki no Mai _

And this is precisely why Itachi said "All your Jutsu are useless."

No Jutsu in the world is going to make a difference if the caster can't even get a chance to pull it off.



> Nothing outside Totsuka is taking him down.





If only Itachi had a weapon like that...

EDIT: Also, Tsukuyomi is definitely putting Orochimaru down and so is Amaterasu if Itachi can mindfuck Oro first to prevent him from escaping it. It's not like Totsuka is his only option; it's just the easiest.



> And with knowledge, he won't get hit. He can erect Rashoumon gates



Orochimaru has to bite his thumbs open and bend down to put his hands on the ground, then the Rashoumon gates actually have to rise up. If Orochimaru is anywhere near or in the striking range of Susano'o, he's going to get stabbed before this happens.



> or use Leech All Creation to escape and gain distance.



Again, this is contingent upon Orochimaru starting the engagement outside of Itachi's immediate reach. And it's also fairly pointless, as Itachi will just track him with Sharingan and follow him to wherever he surfaces.



> He also has summons - including an enormous wall of thousands of snakes - to buy him time. It's not like summoning them takes a long time.



Doesn't really matter; Orochimaru definitely isn't evading the Totsuka no Tsurugi if he's vomitting out a tidal wave of snakes, so there's no way he can safely do this unless he's out of Itachi's range.

And even then, it's going to take Itachi all of two seconds to clear the battlefield. 



> Fleeing is irrelevant.



Er, no. Fleeing is what any ambulatory living organism can do to preserve its own life. If Itachi is forced into a situation where he can't win, logic dictates that he would flee unless something more important than his life were at stake.

So basically there were two outcomes for Orochimaru: Either he would get his ass kicked or Itachi would bail if things weren't going smoothly.


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## Turrin (Jun 11, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Hiruzen's exhibition thus far has been the poorest of the five Hokage (including Tsunade) and perhaps even the poorest of ANY Kage with the arguable exceptions of Mei and Gaara's dad.
> 
> And besides the lack of feats, we have no way to even powerscale Tobirama.
> 
> I will grant you this: Tobirama is probably _at least_ strong enough to give Itachi a run for his money one-on-one, if not beat him. However, it's also possible he might not be, and if that's the case, what are they going to do? Pool their inferiority and beat Itachi with the sum? That's not how it works. Without feats to show Tobirama's specific abilities and explain how he could be a useful asset to the team, we have nothing to go on except "He might be stronger or he might not be" while Orochimaru and Hiruzen may as well just stand around twerking at Itachi until he gets pissed and seals them all.



Hiruzen is obviously stronger than most of the other Kages, due if nothing else to him being a Hokage level warrior whose mastered tons of Jutsu and honestly you can say his feats are lacking or whatever but most of the other Kages would struggle to due as well as Hiruzen did against Orochimaru given the circumstance. Tobirama took down a MS wielding Uchiha so he is no push over ether and of course Orochimaru is a Sannin whose at least a bit upgraded due to Senju DNA. To Top it all off due to Orochimaru's knowledge they have full intel on Itachi's capabilities. So no one should need feats to know that Itachi stands no chance in such a scenario it's common sense. The only thing worth discussing is whether Itachi could prevent Edo Tensei or not, however I have yet to see you produce a compelling argument for how Itachi would stop Orochimaru, so i'm still waiting on that.

As for being helpful to each other of course they are going to be. Tobirama's Suitons give the team an additional element and will shut down any of Itachi's Katons bar Amaterasu and Hiruzen's Doton will shut down Itachi's Suitons. With all three of them there, Itachi stands no chance of doing anything in CQC and they can break each other out of Genjutsu. That leaves Susano'o as the only real option here, but this team is stacked so well defensively that there is little hope of Itachi landing Totsuka Sword, between Sanju Roshomo, Doton Walls, Enma's Diamond Cage, and FTG. So yeah they work well together especially agains the enemy at hand.



αce said:


> Also I'm not exactly sure why it's so hard for people to admit that Itachi was superior to Orochimaru. If it was said in the manga just get the sticks out of your asses and accept it. Orochimaru had Edo Tensei when he initiated his plan to go after Sasuke yet didn't even dare go after Itachi (hence why he went for Sasuke) yet he had the balls to go into Konoha and challenge Hiruzen right after.
> 
> I'll let you figure out the implications. Orochimaru had Edo Tensei and still didn't bother chasing Itachi.


Dude I fully accept Orochimaru was weaker than Itachi for most of the manga, however now I believe Orochimaru currently has surpassed Itachi after the whole summoning of the Hokages and taking a Zetsu body.

Your using an out of date Orochimaru in his comparison, yeah Edo Tensei would have made no difference back than because back than Orochimaru couldn't summon the Edo Hokages he had at full power, but now he can, this is why I believe Orochimaru can now win against Itachi with Edo Tensei.

The battle comes down to can Itachi defeat Orochimaru before Edo Tensei, to which I'd say no he can't due to the fact that Orochimaru now possess essentially full knowledge of Itachi's abilities and will be cautious enough to stack his defense until he can use Edo Tensei, which really doesn't that long. Also one has to consider the effects of Orochimaru having Senju DNA will have on his capabilities.


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## Antos (Jun 11, 2013)

Im pretty sure a amaterasu  to the face or tsukuyomi would end this unless you think orochi could regen faster than Nagato's cerberus.


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## Sans (Jun 11, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> You have to take into account though the goal is to steal Itachi's body, not kill him.
> 
> He likely didn't think he'd be able to trump Itachi in the ritual.



That's great, except Orochimaru flat out stated that Itachi was his superior and that Itachi's body was an "impossible dream." Not exactly the language he would use if he was stronger, but not strong enough to prevent Itachi from disrupting the ritual.

Orochimaru has proven that he can at least subjugate Tobirama, so that may have changed. But before Orochimaru's resurrection, the manga was fairly explicit Itachi was in a higher tier than him.


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## Mithos (Jun 11, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> When Sasuke overpowered Orochimaru in the ritual space, all Orochimaru did was scream about how impossible it was that he could be defeated in his own world.
> 
> Based on that, I'm not sure that concern ever crossed his mind.



Fair enough. But the idea that he wouldn't be able to take Itachi alive still stands. His goal was to take the body, not kill it. 



Nikushimi said:


> Given the condition Itachi was in at the time, I don't see why this is surprising.
> 
> And if we just go by that attitude, Sasuke thought he could beat Itachi, too...
> 
> ...



Normally confidence isn't good to go by. But Ace brought up that Orochimaru was hesistant to fight Itachi as a reason he's inferior. Oro's arrogance and lack of knowledge was the reason he lost to Itachi. From everything he knew, he would have won with Yamata no Orochi - even against a healthy Itachi, because nothing Itachi has besides Totsuka can bring it down. 



Nikushimi said:


> Er, I don't see how anyone could reach that conclusion, given that defeating Orochimaru has never amounted to much more than "Turn on hax and blitz" for Itachi in the past.



Maybe because Itachi only has 1 technique that can put down Orochimaru. And if Oro knows about it and tries to avoid it, Itachi would have a hard time killing him and it would be a tough fight. 



Nikushimi said:


> _Tsubaki no Mai _
> 
> And this is precisely why Itachi said "All your Jutsu are useless."
> 
> No Jutsu in the world is going to make a difference if the caster can't even get a chance to pull it off.



Not a good example. Orochimaru knowingly looked into his eyes because of arrogance; he didn't believe he could be caught by a binding genjutsu. That would not happen now. And Itachi's non-Sharingan genjutsu is not preventing him from pulling Edo Tensei off. 



Nikushimi said:


> If only Itachi had a weapon like that...
> 
> EDIT: Also, Tsukuyomi is definitely putting Orochimaru down and so is Amaterasu if Itachi can mindfuck Oro first to prevent him from escaping it. It's not like Totsuka is his only option; it's just the easiest.



Oro isn't going to look into his eyes again. And with summons on the field and how Oro fights, I doubt Itachi could force him to make eye contact. 

Landing Tsukuyomi is very unlikely, so killing him with Amaterasu is also incredibly unlikely. Not only could he Oral Rebirth to safety, he can use Rashoumon or summons as shields. 



Nikushimi said:


> Orochimaru has to bite his thumbs open and bend down to put his hands on the ground, then the Rashoumon gates actually have to rise up. If Orochimaru is anywhere near or in the striking range of Susano'o, he's going to get stabbed before this happens.



Oro was able to summon them after a Bijuu-dama was launched. He can pull it off. Or he can retreat and gain distance first, if necessary. A Totsuka blitz isn't happening, especially not at the starting distance and location. 



Nikushimi said:


> Again, this is contingent upon Orochimaru starting the engagement outside of Itachi's immediate reach. And it's also fairly pointless, as Itachi will just track him with Sharingan and follow him to wherever he surfaces.



They start out of each other's immediate reach here. And how does he do this? He doesn't have the Byakugan, he can't see underground like that. 



Nikushimi said:


> Doesn't really matter; Orochimaru definitely isn't evading the Totsuka no Tsurugi if he's vomitting out a tidal wave of snakes, so there's no way he can safely do this unless he's out of Itachi's range.



Which he can be. And starts outside of it. 



Nikushimi said:


> Er, no. Fleeing is what any ambulatory living organism can do to preserve its own life. If Itachi is forced into a situation where he can't win, logic dictates that he would flee unless something more important than his life were at stake.
> 
> So basically there were two outcomes for Orochimaru: Either he would get his ass kicked or Itachi would bail if things weren't going smoothly.



I mean fleeing is irrelevant here, in a battle-to-the-death scenario. Itachi could flee Oro; Oro could flee from Itachi.


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## Ersa (Jun 12, 2013)

I find it absolutely hilarious that people cling to a Part I statement that Jiraiya = Itachi (which is also mistranslated) but when Orochimaru admits he's weaker they run to make excuses. It was a straight-up admission but the tards still manage to whip out retarded excuses like his arms were sealed and that he claimed with arms he'd one-panel Itachi.

I'm going to cling to my Part I statement of Itachi > Orochimaru just like Jman Tards 

As for this match-up.

Itachi can simply close the distance (OBD scaling gives him Mach 40+ now / disregarding the fact he kept up with KCM Naruto w/o Shunshin who is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Orochimaru in speed.) and picks him off with Amaterasu before Orochimaru can summon an Edo Kage. Or grabs him with Stage 4 Susanoo and puts him in Tsukiyomi.

Until Orochimaru shows me he can actually deal with that level of speed I think Itachi is still comfortable superior. Not to mention Tobirama and KCM Minato can still resist Edo Tensei to a certain degree, they may not listen to him initially like Tobirama did canonically and Orochimaru has to spend a second or 2 restraining them.


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## Csdabest (Jun 12, 2013)

Tobirama and Hiruzen no orochimaru has shown anything to really take care of Susano-o so itachi could very well solo this with current feats and all. Amaterasu could easily decommision any edo tenseis. Only reason Nagato got rid of it is because he pushed the flames of with shinra tensei and the only reason it did that is cuz its edo So Itachi could very well take out or atleast decomission the edos with or without totsuka. And Orochimaru is cake. Gets raped again with base line genjutsu


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## Bonly (Jun 12, 2013)

Itachi has been portrayed as the superior of the two and has the feats to win this. Orochi would need Edo Hashi or Edo Minato to be viewed as the superior of the two but we all know who Kishi would have win this fight if it was to happen in the manga


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2013)

Feat-wise Orochimaru's Edos need to show more.

Logic-wise, Itachi _has_ been portrayed as _Orochimaru_'s superior, but. . .he is no longer fighting only Orochimaru here. He's fighting 3 Hokage level fighters, two with infinite chakra, it'd be ridiculous to believe he could win this after Edo Tensei is used- which it will be because Orochimaru already knows he cannot take Itachi on his own.


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## Bonly (Jun 12, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Feat-wise Orochimaru's Edos need to show more.
> 
> Logic-wise, Itachi _has_ been portrayed as _Orochimaru_'s superior, but. . .he is no longer fighting only Orochimaru here. *He's fighting 3 Hokage level fighters, two with infinite chakra, it'd be ridiculous to believe he could win this after Edo Tensei is used*- which it will be because Orochimaru already knows he cannot take Itachi on his own.



How edo's are when they are brought back.

Itachi's track record against enemies that are like the Edo's when brought back aka standing still..

 It doesn't look like Itachi will need to fight three Kage level ninja, just two


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> How edo's are when they are brought back.
> 
> Itachi's track record against enemies that are like the Edo's when brought back aka standing still..
> 
> It doesn't look like Itachi will need to fight three Kage level ninja, just two



The Hokages woke up as soon as the ash finished surrounding the Zetsus, I'm pretty sure the ash is already collected here as Kabuto's was when he first showed Tobi the Edos, and if it isn't I seriously doubt they'll still be sitting like that by the time Itachi is able to cross the valley, manifest Susano'o, and stab them with Totsuka.

 Forget this, it's Itachi


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## Bonly (Jun 12, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> The Hokages woke up as soon as the ash finished surrounding the Zetsus, I'm pretty sure the ash is already collected here as Kabuto's was when he first showed Tobi the Edos, and if it isn't I seriously doubt they'll still be sitting like that by the time Itachi is able to cross the valley, manifest Susano'o, and stab them with Totsuka.
> 
> Forget this, it's Itachi



FlamingRain. Pls. Itachi's sword is long enough to cross that distance without Itachi moving. Do I need to show you the others that fell to Itachi? You know what, imma show you anyway.







Lord Itachi shall get the job done 

 Never mind, you have seen the light


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2013)

I admit that I was mistaken, Itachi shall solo as he has done twice already.


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## Bonly (Jun 12, 2013)

Glad to see a lost soul now on the right path if only everyone was like you FR, the fourms would be a happier, healthier, Itachi loving place


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2013)

The lack of common sense in this thread is astonishing. Let me go through some examples:


Lack of Common Sense: "Orochimaru would get Three Tome Genjutsu blitz'd again" 

Common Sense: Orochimaru has *knowledge* on Itachi now and knows to avoid looking in his eyes

Lack of Common Sense: "Orochimaru said Itachi was stronger than him"

Common Sense: "Sure Itachi was stronger back than, but Orochimaru has gotten some upgrades that make it so the former statement no longer applies"

Lack of Common Sense: "Itachi would Totasuka Blitz at the start of the match"

Common Sense: "Not only would this be OOC for Itachi as he's never started with Totsuka Sword, but Orochimaru has knowledge on Itachi and therefore will recognize what Itachi's going for when he starts forming Susano'o and would have time to react before Itachi could both form and attack with Stage 4 Susano'o."

Lack of Common Sense: "We Need feats from the Hokages to know if Itachi would loose"

Common Sense: "Itachi would be 1v3 against Hokage level opponents (2 of which have unlimited stamina) that have full knowledge of his capabilities; there are no 3 Kage level (let alone Hokage level) opponents Itachi could beat in this scenario. Even if we put Itachi up against the weakest ones like Mei, Yondaime Kazekage, and Tsunade, he'd still loose, because it's 3 Kages with full knowledge.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 12, 2013)

Orochimaru admitted inferiority to Itachi with his gimped Edo Tensei.

He got Zetsu-body with unknown boosts and 2 ungimped Edo Tensei. Said ET feat-wise are on the same level as his gimped version. 

Feat-wise Orochimaru is no different from his previous versions - when ET Hashirama and Minato aren't used obviously. 

Wait for feats or clear info about current Orochimaru. Itachi still wins in BD.


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## Sans (Jun 12, 2013)

For most of the manga's duration, Itachi had been plainly identified as the superior shinobi. Most would consider Itachi's general hype and portrayal to be superior to that of any individual Sannin, and Kishi took care to specifically illustrate that Itachi was the snake Sannin's superior.

Itachi's first conflict with Orochimaru was brief, but ended with Orochimaru with the Uchiha calmly asserting his superiority.  Afterwards, Orochimaru remained convinced that Itachi's power surpassed him, admitting that he was unable to defeat the newest Akatsuki member; even calling it an "impossible dream." 2  This assessment had a significant effect on Orochimaru's future actions, which became dedicated to eliminating the gap between his power and Itachi's; to claim the Uchiha's doujutsu for his own.  Orochimaru's original Edo Tensei did not alter his assessment that Itachi's defeat was an "impossible dream" and even Sasuke's aid post time-skip was deemed insufficient. 5 Itachi's superiority was practically made explicit when their respective ultimate jutsu clashed, and Susano'o dispatched the Hydra and the Sannin himself; despite Itachi's state of near death. 6 Itachi's superiority was practically made explicit when their respective ultimate jutsu clashed, and Susano'o dispatched the Hydra and the Sannin himself; despite Itachi's state of near death. 6 Further damaging Orochimaru's status relative to Itachi was his certainty of defeat, without even being aware of Itachi's final Susano'o legendary items. 7 

While largely speculation, I also believe that Itachi and Orochimaru have had a proper, entire confrontation. Itachi recognised Orochimaru's Hydra no Jutsu, and was even able to name the technique. 8 It can be asserted that Itachi likely encountered it on the field of battle, and Orochimaru's defeat there solidified his respect for the young Uchiha.

However, that was then. Now, Orochimaru possesses several advantages he formerly lacked. His body is almost entirely made of Hashirama's cells, and he has acquired every previous Hokage as an Edo puppet. 9 10 Hashirama's cells have previously been an impressive addition to any shinobi's arsenal and supplement his physical attributes plus stamina. The Edo Hokage speak for themselves. So, have these developments allowed Orochimaru to finally attain his goal of surpassing Itachi?

Very possibly. While Orochimaru has two powerful improvements, to what degree he can access them is unclear. Hashirama has become a synonym for power, but Orochimaru's new body is a Zetsu clone. One that had Hashirama's vitality spread over one hundred thousand of them, and was diluted to the point that even Yamato's chakra could improve them. An assault by the Edo Hokage would utterly demolish Itachi, yet Orochimaru's ability to control them is circumspect. Although Tobirama has been successfully subjugated, Hashirama has successfully fought off the Sannin's control, a feat that would be unsurprising from any of the other Hokage. 11 Furthermore, deploying Edo Tensei can be interrupted. 12 

In summary, Orochimaru has certainly grown in power compared to his previous incarnation, but with the extenuating factors analysed, he is not automatically Itachi's superior. I feel he probably is now, as Tobirama didn't seem to view Orochimaru's Zetsu body as unimpressive; and even one prime Edo Hokage is a huge threat. However the potential for Itachi's continued superiority exists, and will probably become clearer in either direction over the following chapter releases.


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Orochimaru admitted inferiority to Itachi with his gimped Edo Tensei.
> 
> He got Zetsu-body with unknown boosts and 2 ungimped Edo Tensei. Said ET feat-wise are on the same level as his gimped version.
> 
> ...



We don't just go by Feats in the BD, we go by common sense as well. If Itachi can't beat any 3 Kage level Ninja who have full knowledge on him, than common sense should tell us that he's not beat 3 Hokage level Ninja that have full knowledge on him. 



Komnenos said:


> For most of the manga's duration, Itachi had been plainly identified as the superior shinobi. Most would consider Itachi's general hype and portrayal to be superior to that of any individual Sannin, and Kishi took care to specifically illustrate that Itachi was the snake Sannin's superior.
> 
> Itachi's first conflict with Orochimaru was brief, but ended with Orochimaru with the Uchiha calmly asserting his superiority.  Afterwards, Orochimaru remained convinced that Itachi's power surpassed him, admitting that he was unable to defeat the newest Akatsuki member; even calling it an "impossible dream." 2  This assessment had a significant effect on Orochimaru's future actions, which became dedicated to eliminating the gap between his power and Itachi's; to claim the Uchiha's doujutsu for his own.  Orochimaru's original Edo Tensei did not alter his assessment that Itachi's defeat was an "impossible dream" and even Sasuke's aid post time-skip was deemed insufficient. 5 Itachi's superiority was practically made explicit when their respective ultimate jutsu clashed, and Susano'o dispatched the Hydra and the Sannin himself; despite Itachi's state of near death. 6 Itachi's superiority was practically made explicit when their respective ultimate jutsu clashed, and Susano'o dispatched the Hydra and the Sannin himself; despite Itachi's state of near death. 6 Further damaging Orochimaru's status relative to Itachi was his certainty of defeat, without even being aware of Itachi's final Susano'o legendary items. 7
> 
> ...



Good post, only thing I disagree with is that I think we can effectively debate now whether or not Orochimaru with his knowledge of Itachi could buy himself enough time for Edo Tensei. I also think it's pretty obvious that if Orochimaru achieves Edo Tensei Itachi is done for here. I'll grant you that Hashi can't be control and heck maybe even Minato couldn't be with his KCM power, which is why I didn't grant ether one as Orochimaru's summons in this thread. However I think common sense would tell us that even if Orochimaru can only summon 2 Edo Hokages that's still too much for Itachi to handle on his own.


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## Sans (Jun 12, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Good post, only thing I disagree with is that I think we can effectively debate now whether or not Orochimaru with his knowledge of Itachi could buy himself enough time for Edo Tensei. I also think it's pretty obvious that if Orochimaru achieves Edo Tensei Itachi is done for here. I'll grant you that Hashi can't be control and heck maybe even Minato couldn't be with his KCM power, which is why I didn't grant ether one as Orochimaru's summons in this thread. However I think common sense would tell us that even if Orochimaru can only summon 2 Edo Hokages that's still too much for Itachi to handle on his own.



I do find this plausible. I was more concerned with just establishing the relationship that Kishi had attempted to portray, then looking at the what the latest manga chapters did to upset it. The post was starting to get long winded, so I left any battlefield specifics for another time.


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## crisler (Jun 12, 2013)

the issue is,

whether oro can summon hokages in his battle or not.

if he can't summon the hokages than he dies for certain.

let's say he can summon them,

then here's the second question. can oro avoid himself from being caught in itachis' genjutsu to end edo tensei by force,

and this is whether itachi can stop being killed by the hokages at the same time casting genjutsu on oro.

personally, if hashirama or minato isn't around, i think itachi can win here. he won't win against the three, but if he needs to just use gen on oro than i think he can do that.

if hashirama or minato was around though, i think itachi won't be able to force genjutsu against oro...the two would be too much for itachi to bypass and aim for oro


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## Magicbullet (Jun 12, 2013)

Perhaps we should wait for "current Orochimaru" to do something first. 

as an aside: this "genjutsu into stopping edo-tensei" nonsense is fan-fiction, Itachi never managed such a thing as controlling Orochimaru with his ganjutsu, only momentarily stopping his where he stood.


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## Kai (Jun 12, 2013)

Orochimaru has had enough lessons losing against the Uchihas, so he should be able to avoid Itachi's genjutsu just as Kabuto did, considering his up to date knowledge.

Considering the two hokages have even more experience with Uchihas than Oro does, all of Itachi's visual genjutsu (including Tsukiyomi) are out. Tobirama's top tier sensing can sense when Itachi is building chakra in his eyes or about to detonate his exploding clones. His S/T could probably dance with Susano'o for a bit, but it still needs feats to properly gauge its flexibility.

Itachi's only shot is to lock Oro's mind in Izanami and make him release Edo Tensei, because he's not beating the likes of Tobirama, Hiruzen, and Orochimaru collectively at full power. If the hokages are gimped, Itachi should win with extreme difficulty by sealing the hokages in combinations leading to the Totsuka bottle and solo'ing Orochimaru with Izanami.

I'd like to see more of Tobirama because there's a good chance he may have the skill to beat Itachi by himself.


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2013)

Kai said:


> Orochimaru has had enough lessons losing against the Uchihas, so he should be able to avoid Itachi's genjutsu just as Kabuto did, considering his up to date knowledge.
> 
> Considering the two hokages have even more experience with Uchihas than Oro does, all of Itachi's visual genjutsu (including Tsukiyomi) are out. Tobirama's top tier sensing can sense when Itachi is building chakra in his eyes or about to detonate his exploding clones. His S/T could probably dance with Susano'o for a bit, but it still needs feats to properly gauge its flexibility.
> 
> ...


Find Izanami unlikely to work here as it requires establishing two points of repetition, which is excessively difficult when you are being attacked by 3 different shinobi with extremely unique fighting styles. Also there seems to be an implication that Itachi can't maintain his Susano'o while initiating at least the last point of repetition for the Izanami loop and I don't see Itachi lasing very long against 3 Hokage level enemies w/o Susano'o as a defense. 

I also have a hard time imagining Itachi defeating two Hokage level shinobi who have full knowledge on him via Orochi, with just the Susano'o level he has displayed (I.E. not P-Susano'o), because honestly I could see even the two of the weakest Kages we've seen with full knowledge making it very difficult for Itachi to land Totsuka sword, and I have to imagine that Tobirama and Hiruzen are at least a bit stronger than the weakest Kages we've seen.


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## Akitō (Jun 12, 2013)

Itachi's best shot is to go for the quick kill before Orochimaru summons the dead Hokage. Because once Orochimaru has them on his side, Itachi's chances become extremely slim. The three of them are individually a good match for him, and if you combine their strengths, I find it hard to imagine Itachi lasting long. 

His strategy should be to try to feint Orochimaru in an attempt to trap him in Tsukuyomi, but that isn't something I'd bank on considering Orochimaru's wealth of knowledge on the Uchiha and his respect for Itachi's abilities. Totsuka's Sword can kill Orochimaru and the Hokage, and usually I'd give Itachi the benefit of the doubt when it comes to finding a way to hit his enemies with it. But here he's having to battle someone who knows his skill-set from firsthand experience and two Hokage who are sure to be able to battle Uchiha. 

Not going to go in-depth with how I think the battle would go if Orochimaru does summon the two Hokage because I think that should be rather obvious. Really, if you think Itachi can kill Orochimaru in the first few seconds, then that's fine - I think you're way underestimating Orochimaru's strength, but considering Orochimaru's track record against Itachi, I can understand why you'd think that. If you think that Itachi can beat Orochimaru and two Hokage, then you must not have a very solid grasp on how team battles work or how strong these shinobi are.


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## KenpachiDiachoxx (Jun 12, 2013)

Oro loses. X ) my trolling in J&O vs Itachi tajitsu have spurred these Sannin vs Otachi threads.

Oro still lose. Nothing has changed for Oro except knowledge which he already had except for Susanoo which Oro can't counter or defeat. And it's sad stop mentioning Eo Tensei that Jutsus can only be used in a fight If you prep before hand for it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 12, 2013)

Powerwise nothing has changed. 

Orochimaru might linger a while longer because he might find ways to get around genjutsu, Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu. But he still can't do anything about Susaon'o. 
Tobirama and Hiruzen won't help either. Itachi can just mow them down with Susano'o.

I'd say Itachi with mid diff.


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## Kanki (Jun 12, 2013)

Tobirama is immensely fast. If he can gain any kind of knowledge about the SOT from Orochimaru before getting sealed, he'll evade it.


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Powerwise nothing has changed.
> 
> Orochimaru might linger a while longer because he might find ways to get around genjutsu, Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu. But he still can't do anything about Susaon'o.
> Tobirama and Hiruzen won't help either. Itachi can just mow them down with Susano'o.
> ...



A guy summons Hokages = nothing has change. The level of bias is astonishing


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## Hero (Jun 12, 2013)

Itachi rapes the shit out of Orochimaru. Lol, this Oro is hardly any different than when he last faced Itachi. He literally has no arsenal.


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2013)

Hero I expect more from some with that many post. I mean ignoring knowledge and oros advancement how can some one say he's no different.


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## Vice (Jun 12, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Powerwise nothing has changed.



What an absolutely ridiculous notion.

Fanboys...


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## Sans (Jun 12, 2013)

I made a minor edit to my large post, since I felt my conclusion wasn't exactly what I wanted to express.

Yes, we probably need a clearer view of Orochimaru's enhancements to have conclude this match up. However at the moment, Orochimaru is probably the superior shinobi. There is simply potential that all these upgrades will prove underwhelming, for the reasons previously outlined.

Upon reading my post again, I felt my conclusion was too ambiguous, or even favoured Itachi somewhat. That was not my intent.


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## Turrin (Jun 13, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> I made a minor edit to my large post, since I felt my conclusion wasn't exactly what I wanted to express.
> 
> Yes, we probably need a clearer view of Orochimaru's enhancements to have conclude this match up. However at the moment, Orochimaru is probably the superior shinobi. There is simply potential that all these upgrades will prove underwhelming, for the reasons previously outlined.
> 
> Upon reading my post again, I felt my conclusion was too ambiguous, or even favoured Itachi somewhat. That was not my intent.



Just read your addition, I personally feel it's the most comprehensible and accurate assessment I've seen in this thread. Nice post.  

I mean i'm sure if Itachi lived longer he'd be better than Orochi, but Orochi has the benefit of living longer than Itachi and perhaps that's the true potential and evil of Orochi's jutsu


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 13, 2013)

Turrin said:


> A guy summons Hokages = nothing has change. The level of bias is astonishing



Orochimaru could always summon the Hokages. Edo tensei was always accessible to him.

Tobirama lacks feats to be able to pose any kind of a threat to Itachi. Itachi'd just casually steamroll him with his base arsenal.
Tobirama launches suitons ? We know it worked so well for Kabuto.

Hiruzen is also in the same boat. His part 1 feats are almost non factor against a shinobi of Itachi's level.

We need to wait a few chapters to see what Tobirama and Hiruzen are actually capable of doing.

Besides, these 2 wouldn't fight Itachi if Oro left them to their own devices. They'd job and tell Itachi what their weaknesses are or warn him. Oro would have to pupeteer them. 
Which is something he is not very good @.



Vice said:


> What an absolutely ridiculous notion.
> 
> Fanboys...



Too bad its coming from you. No one gives a fuck


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## Complete_Ownage (Jun 13, 2013)

Hell It has always been my belief that Tobirama was stronger then the Sannin and Itachi way back in part 1. So im not even going to get into this debate lol


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## Complete_Ownage (Jun 13, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> For most of the manga's duration, Itachi had been plainly identified as the superior shinobi. Most would consider Itachi's general hype and portrayal to be superior to that of any individual Sannin, and Kishi took care to specifically illustrate that Itachi was the snake Sannin's superior.
> 
> Itachi's first conflict with Orochimaru was brief, but ended with Orochimaru with the Uchiha calmly asserting his superiority.  Afterwards, Orochimaru remained convinced that Itachi's power surpassed him, admitting that he was unable to defeat the newest Akatsuki member; even calling it an "impossible dream." 2  This assessment had a significant effect on Orochimaru's future actions, which became dedicated to eliminating the gap between his power and Itachi's; to claim the Uchiha's doujutsu for his own.  Orochimaru's original Edo Tensei did not alter his assessment that Itachi's defeat was an "impossible dream" and even Sasuke's aid post time-skip was deemed insufficient. 5 Itachi's superiority was practically made explicit when their respective ultimate jutsu clashed, and Susano'o dispatched the Hydra and the Sannin himself; despite Itachi's state of near death. 6 Itachi's superiority was practically made explicit when their respective ultimate jutsu clashed, and Susano'o dispatched the Hydra and the Sannin himself; despite Itachi's state of near death. 6 Further damaging Orochimaru's status relative to Itachi was his certainty of defeat, without even being aware of Itachi's final Susano'o legendary items. 7
> 
> ...



This one of the best posts I have seen in a long time

Very detailed and thought out


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