# Ohnoki vs Hebi Sasuke



## Ashi (May 11, 2015)

IC 
No knowledge 

Location: 4th Division battlefield 

Starting distance: Whatever's standard 

Who wins?


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## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

jinton GG
onoki low diffs


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## Trojan (May 11, 2015)

Onoki fodderstomps. lol

Even tho Hebi Sasuke is really overwanked. I guess I might add him to my list of overwanked characters.


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## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

Can Onoki Jinton-GG Itachi?

Because Hebi Sasuke's as fast as Itachi, and Jinton > Susano'o.


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## Trojan (May 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Where has Onoki hit somebody as fast as Hebi Sasuke with Jinton?



He hit madara. 
He was as fast as Deidara, who's also on the same tier speed as Sasuke. 

he fodderized 5 of Madara's clones with 5 V3 Susanoos, when sasuke was like a little b in front
of a far weaker guy (itachi) and 1 Susanoo. 



> Can Onoki Jinton-GG Itachi?


Yes. 



> Because Hebi Sasuke's as fast as Itachi,


No. Hebi Sasuke has 4.5 in speed, and itachi has 5. 
How is that equal?


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## Ashi (May 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Can Onoki Jinton-GG Itachi?
> 
> Because Hebi Sasuke's as fast as Itachi, and Jinton > Susano'o.




He did hit Madara


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## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Can Onoki Jinton-GG Itachi?
> 
> Because Hebi Sasuke's as fast as Itachi, and Jinton > Susano'o.



oh really ? 
is that why hebi sasuke using a summoning jutsu to get his shiruken was still slower than itachi getting them out of his weapon bag while performing seals for kage bunshin without sasuke being able to see those seals while looking directly at itachi?

so no onoki cannot jinton GG itachi. itachi also has things like amaterasu which hebi sasuke lacks

amaterasu can be used before jinton is charged up and ready. amaterasu is laughably faster than sasuke movement speed

the manga clearly puts itachi even sick and dying well above hebi sasuke. so I don't get why you bring up itachi who is clearly superior 

but lets not compare the 2 again. obito in the manga has already said itachi could have quickly killed sasuke if he wanted and this is true if itachi opted straight for susanoo mowing sasuke down


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## UchihaX28 (May 11, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> He did hit Madara



 One who admitted to have purposely let Onoki do so to reveal his Hashiface to diminish the willpower of the Gokage.


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## Ghost (May 11, 2015)

Knowledge and starting distance?


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## Ashi (May 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> One who admitted to have purposely let Onoki do so to reveal his Hashiface to diminish the willpower of the Gokage.



Yeah, but he said he wouldn't absorb it 

Heck it even hit him Ohnoki fired again to get rid of those clones.


A better question is has any worth a damn managed to actually dodge the particle style


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## UchihaX28 (May 11, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Yeah, but he said he wouldn't absorb it
> 
> Heck it even hit him Ohnoki fired again to get rid of those clones.
> 
> ...



 Onoki was amped up by Tsunade.

 While Onoki has an easier time winning this match, Hebi Sasuke has a chance. We have to take into consideration that Onoki has to remain stationary in order to use Jinton and with CS2 and flight, I can see Hebi Sasuke pressuring Onoki to the point of not being able to land a Jinton within Sasuke's range.

 Furthermore, Sasuke has Genjutsu and could very well deceive Onoki into believing Jinton actually destroyed Sasuke similar to Sasuke's deceptive tactic against Deidara's C4. The only difference is that it is more likely to succeed due to Onoki's lack of feats of even handling Sharingan Genjutsu.


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## Ashi (May 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Onoki was amped up by Tsunade.
> 
> While Onoki has an easier time winning this match, Hebi Sasuke has a chance. We have to take into consideration that Onoki has to remain stationary in order to use Jinton and with CS2 and flight, I can see Hebi Sasuke pressuring Onoki to the point of not being able to land a Jinton within Sasuke's range.
> 
> Furthermore, Sasuke has Genjutsu and could very well deceive Onoki into believing Jinton actually destroyed Sasuke similar to Sasuke's deceptive tactic against Deidara's C4. The only difference is that it is more likely to succeed due to Onoki's lack of feats of even handling Sharingan Genjutsu.




Ohnoki was putting Deidara under pressure Sasuke won't get the better of him that easy, even with the Curse Mark


But lolGenjutsu is always an option


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## UchihaX28 (May 11, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Ohnoki was putting Deidara under pressure Sasuke won't get the better of him that easy, even with the Curse Mark
> 
> 
> But lolGenjutsu is always an option



 Sasuke did as well and guess what? Sasuke's a close range fighter which puts him at a massive disadvantage, Deidara had assistance with preparing the mines thanks to Lolbito which allowed Deidara to catch him with an explosive.

 Unlike Onoki, Deidara actually had fast guiding missiles that covered a wide AoE while Onoki does not. Onoki also lacks the range Deidara has as guided missiles travel farther than Jinton. This makes Onoki's requirements of having to stay stationary a curse as Jinton is a linear projectile while Deidara's explosive clay is not which makes it much easier for Sasuke to circle around Onoki while it was much more difficult for him to do so against Deidara.

 Onoki also has an elemental disadvantage, so Jinton is his only method of winning which like I said, Sasuke can counter it.


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## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> oh really ?



I'm just trying to understand. 

You think Onoki can Jinton-GG-panel anybody <= Hebi Sasuke in speed?


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## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I'm just trying to understand.
> 
> You think Onoki can Jinton-GG-panel anybody <= Hebi Sasuke in speed?



no but I think it can GG anybody who 

1) doesn't have jutsu fast enough to stop it
2) enough speed to straight up avoid it 
3) rinnegan to absorb it 

sine sasuke has neither of the 3 above it ends him quickly 

he has no jutsu to stop it. genjutsu will be the only thing 1 can think of yet if onoki isn't looking at his eyes that's off the table 

he doesn't have the speed to absorb it 

he doesn't have rinnegan 

now itachi 

has amaterasu to stop it, genjutsu skill to catch onoki even if onoki isn't looking at his eyes 

sasuke dies miserably


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## Ashi (May 11, 2015)

```

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NarutoX28 said:


> Sasuke did as well and guess what? Sasuke's a close range fighter which puts him at a massive disadvantage,



Except Sasuke could hardly reach him and had to resort to ranged combat(Sharp Spear and Shuriken). Ohnoki had no problem getting to Deidara  



> Deidara had assistance with preparing the mines thanks to Lolbito which allowed Deidara to catch him with an explosive.



Objection, Relevance
[


> Unlike Onoki, Deidara actually had fast guiding missiles that covered a wide AoE while Onoki does not. Onoki also lacks the range Deidara has as guided missiles travel farther than Jinton.



The day Deidara's arsenal hits Madara is the day you might have a point



> This makes Onoki's requirements of having to stay stationary a curse as Jinton is a linear projectile while Deidara's explosive clay is not which makes it much easier for Sasuke to circle around Onoki while it was much more difficult for him to do so against Deidara.



Not really Particle style isn't just a straight blast it's pretty big and has just as much AOE as Deidara's bombs



> Onoki also has an elemental disadvantage, so Minton is his only method of winning which like I said, Sasuke can counter it.



So we're going with lolgenjutsu?


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## Kai (May 11, 2015)

Unbalanced thread.

Onoki destroys the surrounding area with Jinton. Sasuke has no way out, unless he rings out by reverse summoning Manda.


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## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

Kai said:


> Unbalanced thread.
> 
> Onoki destroys the surrounding area with Jinton. Sasuke has no way out, unless he rings out by reverse summoning Manda.



Deidara could have blown up the entire area, but needed Obito to plant bombs underground to prevent Sasuke from shunshin evasion. Sasuke would not have problems avoiding the Jinton.​


Icegaze said:


> no but I think it can GG anybody who
> 
> 2) enough speed to straight up avoid it



So if Hebi Sasuke doesn't, then who does? Only v2 A? Sasuke's shunshin usage (dodged Amaterasu) is essentially the peak a ninja can have before dipping into biju chakra power.

For example, he was able to move so fast that Deidara couldn't keep up with him, keeping in mind that Deidara has a 4.5 speed and kept up and escaped from Kakashi, Gai, Lee, Neji, and KN2 prior to that.

So what I'm hearing from you is that Onoki can instantly neg-diff Jinton-blitz anybody with a 4.5 speed and sub-Sasuke speed feats. Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Tsunade, Kisame, Gaara, Sasori, etc.​


TensaXZangetsu said:


> The day Deidara's arsenal hits Madara is the day you might have a point.



Is Madara letting Deidara hit him like the did with Onoki? Madara stomped two Jinton users at once without injury and holding back. If he wants to evade Jinton, then he obviously can.​


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## Ashi (May 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Is Madara letting Deidara hit him like the did with Onoki? Madara stomped two Jinton users at once without injury and holding back. If he wants to evade Jinton, then he obviously can.​



Madara couldn't dodge Particle Style so he absorbed it instead otherwise he wouldn't have been so worried about it when he was in susanoo


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## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Madara couldn't dodge Particle Style so he absorbed it instead otherwise he wouldn't have been so worried about it when he was in susanoo



So how did MS Madara beat Onoki and Muu at once?


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## Ashi (May 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> So how did MS Madara beat Onoki and Muu at once?



By being better than Hebi Sasuke


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## Kai (May 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Deidara could have blown up the entire area, but needed Obito to plant bombs underground to prevent Sasuke from shunshin evasion. Sasuke would not have problems avoiding the Jinton.​


Deidara is nowhere even close to the most powerful Kage of the previous generation to be able to make that comparison 

Only C3 and C0 exceed Jinton's AOE and explosive yield; all of Deidara's other bombs which are guided aren't even close to Jinton's execution speed as a laser or beam. Genkai Hakuri surrounds Sasuke and turns him to dust.

With no knowledge, Onoki will most likely have to face Sasuke's genjutsu but I don't see that as a game ender. With no knowledge, Sasuke will most likely defend from Jinton by his own volition or be forced in a position to defend and that is most certainly a game ender.


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## Rocky (May 11, 2015)

I don't like that line of thinking. The speed and scale of Jinton is being exaggerated imo. 

If Onoki could just casually raze the battlefield, then what's to stop him from no-diff nuking the Sannin, or Itachi, or SM Naruto, or others he wasn't portrayed to be capable of stomping.

What's more is that there's _no way_ Madara would be able to job and still slaughter Onoki _and Mu_ without taking a hit if Jinton was so unavoidable, given that Madara's Susano'o can't block it.


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## Kai (May 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't like that line of thinking. The speed and scale of Jinton is being exaggerated imo.
> 
> If Onoki could just casually raze the battlefield, then what's to stop him from no-diff nuking the Sannin, or Itachi, or SM Naruto, or others he wasn't portrayed to be capable of stomping.


How is scale exaggerated? Did you so easily forget what Onoki did to Flower Tree World?


If you want to talk about scale, Sasuke never avoided anything even close to that scale aside from the reverse summoning gambit. By himself? He's going nowhere.

As for those characters, Onoki should be able to obliterate Jiraiya, Tsunade, or Naruto with Jinton. Itachi has a OHKO move that is executed faster than Jinton, and Orochimaru's leeching serves him as one of the hardest characters to kill.

Last but not least, Hebi Sasuke is an entire tier of power lower than all the characters you listed, at the height of their powers. What makes anyone think Hebi Sasuke can be brought into the same line of discussion as SM and MS users is baffling.




			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> What's more is that there's _no way_ Madara would be able to job and still slaughter Onoki _and Mu_ without taking a hit if Jinton was so unavoidable, given that Madara's Susano'o can't block it.


1. Do we know if Onoki possessed Jinton at that time?
2. Madara is one of the most potent genjutsu users in existence; it wouldn't be a surprise if Madara defeated both Onoki and Mu with illusions.


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## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

Kai said:


> Deidara is nowhere even close to the most powerful Kage of the previous generation to be able to make that comparison



Is that why Onoki said that he could actually catch Deidara this time, implying that Deidara had the edge on him last time in a ranged battle? (Wha? The jinton-blitz is not unavoidable?)

Moreover, I doubt Onoki would've survived his c4 had he used it. He doesn't have chakra vision or the raiton element, whereas Deidara has the speed and clone feinting skill to get by Jinton.​


Rocky said:


> I don't like that line of thinking. The speed and scale of Jinton is being exaggerated imo.
> 
> If Onoki could just casually raze the battlefield, then what's to stop him from no-diff nuking the Sannin, or Itachi, or SM Naruto, or others he wasn't portrayed to be capable of stomping.
> 
> What's more is that there's _no way_ Madara would be able to job and still slaughter Onoki _and Mu_ without taking a hit if Jinton was so unavoidable, given that Madara's Susano'o can't block it.



I'm glad somebody else sees this.​


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## Kai (May 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Is that why he was fighting him 1v1 and that they had fought before, but Deidara was still alive?​


Onoki and Deidara's relationship is not the same as rivals who clashed many times with no apparent victor and both are alive and well.

Onoki was there to reinforce the lesson that Deidara shouldn't forget how terrifying he can be:


To think Deidara is actually on par with Onoki is face-palm worthy.


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## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

Deidara isn't "on par." Deidara is _stronger_ than Onoki. Read this. Previously, Deidara frustrated Onoki with ranged tactics i.e. bested Onoki at range due to better aerial speed (and homing attacks.)

And yeah, if he used c4, Onoki would've died. Unless you know Onoki's counter to it? Is it his chakra vision, or is raiton element? What's he gonna' do with no knowledge other than disintegrate?

Also, do you think Onoki could capture Shukaku-Gaara in the desert like Deidara did (while holding back?) _No?_ Then where's this no-diff-stomp tier gap coming from that's so face-palm-worthy? 

Because Onoki allegedly "Jinton-blitzes" Hebi Sasuke? When him _and Mu_ couldn't "Jinton-blitz" a playful Madara? Y'all are overestimating Onoki and underestimating Hebi Sasuke/Deidara.​


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## Kai (May 11, 2015)

It almost makes too much sense, Strat.


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## Bonly (May 11, 2015)

I'd this depends on how skilled Onoki is in CQC. He someone managed to touch five Susanoo clones without getting hit and managed to save A from being slashed at so depending if he can manage to land a touch or not determines how the rest of the battle plays out as Sasuke might land a deadly/game changing blow in CQC if Onoki doesn't. Could go either way imo 



Strategoob said:


> Moreover, I doubt Onoki would've survived his c4 had he used it. He doesn't have chakra vision or the raiton element, whereas Deidara has the speed and clone feinting skill to get by Jinton.​



If I remember correctly the 4th DataBook said Onoki could use Raiton as well, though IIRC all members of the Gokage were said to be able to use Raiton in the 4th DB, well from what I've been told that is.


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## Ashi (May 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Deidara isn't "on par." Deidara is _stronger_ than Onoki.
> 
> Read this, Kai.
> 
> ...



And in the past Kakashi could take Naruto while reading a book

Think that holds up, now?


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## Kai (May 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Read this, Kai.
> 
> In the past, Deidara frustrated Onoki with ranged tactics.
> 
> i.e. bested Onoki at range due to better aerial speed (and homing attacks.)


I.e that's not a guaranteed interpretation of that comment at all.

Frustration doesn't imply inability to deal with. I can sit here and say Onoki was always annoyed by how Deidara fights but always found a way to take him to school.



			
				Strategoob said:
			
		

> And yeah, if he used c4, Onoki would've died.
> 
> Unless you know Onoki's counter to it?


Jinton is way faster than C4, and I've yet to see C4 approach a range that Onoki flies in on a natural basis.



			
				Strategoob said:
			
		

> Also,
> 
> Do you think Onoki could capture Shukaku-Gaara in the desert?
> 
> ...


Onoki is beyond even War Arc Gaara's level.

In the discussion about Mu, HQ agreed that only Onoki, a Jinton user, could match Mu's power as a Jinton user. HQ sent Onoki to aid Gaara with that pressing problem.

So yeah, Onoki takes a shit on Shukaku Gaara at the start of the series.



			
				Strategoob said:
			
		

> Because Onoki "Jinton-blitzes" Hebi Sasuke?
> 
> When him _and Mu_ couldn't "Jinton-blitz" a playful MS Madara?


If there was only one interpretation of that fight given or allowed, I might agree with that position.


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## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> And in the past Kakashi could take Naruto while reading a book
> 
> Think that holds up, now?



The obvious difference being that Onoki would've been closer to his prime when he fought Deidara in the past, as he's clearly over the hill in part two due to being a dinosaur. Unlike Naruto.​


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## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

Kai said:


> I.e that's not a guaranteed interpretation of that comment at all. Frustration doesn't imply inability to deal with. I can sit here and say Onoki was always annoyed by how Deidara fights but always found a way to take him to school.



You seriously don't agree that Onoki's comment, combined with Deidara thinking that Onoki's faster than he used to be, implies that Deidara's superior aerial speed was a problem for Onoki previously?​


Kai said:


> In the discussion about Mu, HQ agreed that only Onoki, a Jinton user, could match Mu's power as a Jinton user. HQ sent Onoki to aid Gaara with that pressing problem.



So that's not a hyperbole in your opinion? Nobody else in the alliance stood a chance against Mu? Numbers don't matter? Because if it was a hyperbole, then I don't see its airtight validity here.​


Kai said:


> So yeah, Onoki takes a shit on Shukaku Gaara at the start of the series.



I meant the one that fought Deidara, as that's my comparison. Could Onoki fly into Suna and _capture_ that Gaara? I say no.​


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## Rocky (May 11, 2015)

Kai said:


> How is scale exaggerated? Did you so easily forget what Onoki did to Flower Tree World?



Flower Tree World doesn't move, and thus can't evade. Jinton isn't a bomb, it's a beam:



You evade the beam, you're good. 



> As for those characters, Onoki should be able to obliterate Jiraiya, Tsunade, or Naruto with Jinton.



I'm sorry, but I highly disagree that Onoki has the portrayal to casually wipe Sannin tier fighters of the map.

Who's the quickest character Onoki's actually tagged with Jinton? 



> Last but not least, Hebi Sasuke is an entire tier of power lower than all the characters you listed, at the height of their powers. What makes anyone think Hebi Sasuke can be brought into the same line of discussion as SM and MS users is baffling.



Their defenses against Jinton are all reliant upon evasion. This isn't DBZ yet. Sasuke may be weaker than Jiraiya, but he's certainly faster. 



> 1. Do we know if Onoki possessed Jinton at that time?
> 2. Madara is one of the most potent genjutsu users in existence; it wouldn't be a surprise if Madara defeated both Onoki and Mu with illusions.



Mu alone is enough to get my point across, and considering that it took_ all the way until Madara activated Perfect Susano'o_ for Onoki to realize that Madara had held back against him and Mu, I _highly_ doubt that Madara lolpaneled them with genjutsu.


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## Kai (May 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You seriously don't agree that Onoki's comment, combined with Deidara thinking that Onoki's faster than he used to be, implies that Deidara's superior aerial speed was a problem for Onoki previously?​


I never denied that Deidara was a problem for Onoki in the past.

But Deidara besting Onoki in anything is presented nowhere in their conversation.




			
				Strategoob said:
			
		

> So that's not a hyperbole in your opinion? Nobody else in the alliance stood a chance against Mu? Numbers don't matter? Because if it was a hyperbole, then I don't see its airtight validity here.​


With the resources the Alliance had available, yes only Onoki could handle Mu in that situation. It was already implied in their assessment that Gaara wasn't beating Jinton by himself.

Also "numbers do not matter" is a generalization, not a hyperbole.




			
				Strategoob said:
			
		

> I meant the one that fought Deidara, as that's my comparison. Could Onoki fly into Suna and _capture_ that Gaara? I say no.​


Deidara defeated Gaara without using the height of his powers (C4, C0) and you think Onoki can't defeat Gaara at the height of his power?


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## Rocky (May 11, 2015)

Also, where's this "strongest of the past generation Kage" thing said? Who is even part of that group?


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## Kai (May 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Also, where's this "strongest of the past generation Kage" thing said? Who is even part of that group?


Out of all the past generation Kage, Onoki was the only one who could handle his share of Susanoo's and save others to spare.
Out of all the past generation Kage, Onoki was the only one to awaken from Tree World's pollen and wipe out layers of the surrounding forest.
Out of all the past generation Kage, Onoki had the strongest will.
Out of all the past generation Kage, Onoki was singled out by Madara as "the problem" among them and had to be broken.

He had the greatest performance out of the Gokage, when he is the only one able to do things on more than one occasion that the other four can not. 

That's where it's said.

EDIT: Just noticed your previous reply Rocky, I'll get to it in a bit.


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## Rocky (May 11, 2015)

Kai said:


> That's where it's said.



So in a nutshell, Onoki is the strongest because his abilities are well suited towards countering Madara's? 

See a problem with that line of thinking? This:



> he is the only one able to do things on more than one occasion that the other four can not.



..doesn't mean Onoki is the best. It means exactly what it says. I repeat: this isn't DBZ. Onoki was only a problem to Madara because his Stone Will was ruining the game Madara was playing. Madara wanted them to _lose hope. _

In terms of actual combat, Onoki was no more a problem to a serious Madara than _anyone else._


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## Kai (May 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> So in a nutshell, Onoki is the strongest because his abilities are well suited towards countering Madara's?


No, Onoki isn't more well suited than the other Kage to counter Madara's abilities. Where did you get that from?

He performed the best out of the Gokage because he is the strongest out of all five. There is no inherent advantage on Onoki's ability against Madara's ability.




			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> ..doesn't mean Onoki is the best. It means exactly what it says. I repeat: this isn't DBZ. Onoki was only a problem to Madara because his Stone Will was ruining the game Madara was playing. Madara wanted them to _lose hope. _
> 
> In terms of actual combat, Onoki was no more a problem to a serious Madara than _anyone else._


All you proved was that in the face of Perfect Susanoo, the strongest ant out of a group of ants is still crushed like an ant.

Onoki's performance against Flower Tree World, his share of Susanoo's, and saving A from Susanoo strikes aren't combat related? What are they more associated with then?


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## Rocky (May 12, 2015)

Kai said:


> No, Onoki isn't more well suited than the other Kage to counter Madara's abilities. Where did you get that from?





Jinton gives Onoki a means to clear out a large area relatively quickly, and weight manipulation gives him a very simple way to bypass Susano'o's durability, yet his techniques _aren't_ the most useful against Madara's giant forest and clone armada? 



> He performed the best out of the Gokage because he is the strongest out of all five.



ABC logic is bad logic in Naruto. Let's imagine a scenario.

I send a squad consisting of Kisame, Tsunade, and Gai to capture Killer B. Kisame performing the best out of anyone in this group is a very reasonable assumption to make, and yet he'd _lose_ to either Gai or Tsunade.

How about another one. Instead of Minato fighting Obito at the time of the Kyubi attack, it's Chapter 571 Naruto. Who wins that?



> All you proved was that in the face of Perfect Susanoo, the strongest ant out of a group of ants is still crushed like an ant.



The Five Kage aren't ants. They are ninja with _unique and individual_ skillsets. This. Isn't. DBZ.

If Onoki had actually _beaten_ Madara you'd have a portrayal argument. However, Onoki was crushed just as easily as the others when Madara stopped playing games, indicating that he doesn't pose anymore of a threat to Madara than the rest of the Kage.

Seriously, this is like saying that Preta Path is stronger than Kakuzu because he can counter powerful shit like Rasenshuriken & Goemon and Kakuzu cannot.  I don't get it.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Deidara could have blown up the entire area, but needed Obito to plant bombs underground to prevent Sasuke from shunshin evasion. Sasuke would not have problems avoiding the Jinton.​
> 
> 
> So if Hebi Sasuke doesn't, then who does? Only v2 A? Sasuke's shunshin usage (dodged Amaterasu) is essentially the peak a ninja can have before dipping into biju chakra power.
> ...



Yes he would if they attempt to use speed to get to him or avoid his JUtsu
Jiriaya can use FCD so no onoki isn't instantlh winning , orochimaru can extend his neck and kusanagi or straigjt up use hydra mode to prevent all his body being covered by jinton or his best option temporary paralysis Jutsu to restrict onoki movement and effectively end the Jutsu or use Doton to go underground orochimaru got options here he doesn't need to be faster than hebi sasuke at all 
 , tsunade summons katsuyu again to prevent all her body being hit , Kisame fires daikodan ,gaara creates a sand clone, sasori gets 1 shotted 

So anyone without speed above Hebi sauce or faster techs will loose casually 

So hebi sauce gets 1 panelled

Madara could have used YM which is faster than anytbinf sasuke has 
Or genjutsu which is why onoki knows of madara genjutsu and why he won't be looking into sasuke eyes


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## Veracity (May 12, 2015)

@Kai

Onoki may be on a tier above Deidara but he is by no means stronger than any Sannin member . His arsenal was especially tailored to fighting sussano clones, while the other Gokage members are all tailored to fighting different types of opponents . I mean CQC  fighting a bunch of auto regenerating Sussano clones sounds a lot hardee than zipping around and negating their movements with one touch. A good reason as to why Onnoki was highlighted was also because he's the only gokage member with actual history with Madara . Madara could come back to see his improvement in power.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

@ likeboss 
I agree level wise he isn't above the Sannin . But as far as direct match ups are concerned he should beat tsunade 

Jiriaya and orochimaru should be able to take the win . I think people forget Jinton can actually be stopped and doesn't have to be straight evaded . Which the Sannin can do


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## Empathy (May 12, 2015)

Onoki can pretty much only swing at Sasuke with jinton due to the latter's raiton advantage. That's bad for Onoki, because against such a speedy character, Onoki could usually rely on his supplementary techniques to facilitate jinton connecting. That means it will take longer for Onoki to eventually tag him, as he's limited to solely firing jinton at him and hoping it connects. I'm not opposed to the idea of Onoki having enough range to get him eventually, but Sasuke has the ability to possibly kill him before then, too. It wouldn't be an easy victory for Onoki by any means, just because he's probably the stronger character, and that belief is short-sighted. 

Sasuke has multiple methods of killing him through the giant range of multiple jutsu. Sasuke has numerous advantages of elemental superiority, the ability to distinguish Onoki from bunshins, 5 tier speed and three-dimensional maneuverability to avoid jinton for a time, genjutsu (and inconvenient back problems) to capitalize on openings, and Onoki doesn't like fighting out of his opponent's reach even though he's a dead man if Sasuke catches him up close. I'm not really sure on who wins. I don't really like the idea of Onoki just floating within Sasuke's range and killing him by firing straightforward jinton at him, even though Hebi Sasuke is a 5 tier speedster who can fly, and is one of the more intelligent and resourceful shinobi of the series. Onoki without most of his doton to rely on isn't like Muu, who has untraceable invisibility and sensory skills to supplement his execution speed and conceal his actions. 



Kai said:


> In the discussion about Mu, HQ agreed that only Onoki, a Jinton user, could match Mu's power as a Jinton user. HQ sent Onoki to aid Gaara with that pressing problem.
> 
> So yeah, Onoki takes a shit on Shukaku Gaara at the start of the series.



That wasn't speaking toward a testament to just power levels. Onoki has experience with Muu and valuable knowledge of jinton, being the only living user. Onoki was the only one who could oppose and defend against Muu's jinton with his own, [1] an otherwise unstoppable force at that point. That doesn't mean if version two A showed up instead, he and Gaara couldn't perform as good as or better than Onoki and Gaara against Muu. With A, he'd have the speed to evade jinton and with Gaara helping him, they can track Muu while A would have footing to reach him if he tries to fly away. Onoki was sent to help Gaara against Muu (also there were three other Kages), but that glosses over the facts that Muu had to tell Onoki to call Gaara over to help him or he was going die, that Onoki then needed Gaara to keep Muu from stealth-breaking his neck, and that they both still needed to be saved from Muu by Naruto. 

Not mention Gaara saving him again against Gengetsu (I'm aware he couldn't use jinton right after fighting Muu, but Onoki wouldn't have gotten past the genjutsu in the first place without Gaara, and Gengetsu tied with Muu, the same guy who repeatedly would've killed Onoki alone). In terms of Muu's actual defeat, Onoki was completely unnecessary. Gaara and one of Naruto's _Kage Bunshin_ handled him; if you put A in Naruto's position, a similar scenario was likely to occur (they had just resolved Naruto and A being close in speed, while Muu lost due to his execution speed being slower). A can't stretch his arms, but Naruto wasn't exactly using Yondaime Hokage-level speed either. If A had the footing to reach Muu and means to detect him that Gaara provides, the two would've wrecked Muu instead of Onoki dropping the ball and getting him and Gaara killed. 



Kai said:


> 2. Madara is one of the most potent genjutsu users in existence; it wouldn't be a surprise if Madara defeated both Onoki and Mu with illusions.



This interpretation is supported given Onoki warned the alliance of his ocular genjutsu. It's not like that option isn't available to Sasuke. He could pull the same strategy he did with Deidara: make Onoki see Sasuke's disintegration by jinton, and then fly up and impale his heart.

Also, Sannin-level ranges from barely middle-of-the-pack Tsunade to high Kage like _Sennin_ Jiraiya. Orochimaru's strength varied widely throughout the series. Really what canonically consisted of Sannin-level was three high jounin getting beaten by Hanzo. You might as well say Gokage or Akatsuki-level if you want to cover such a wide scope.


----------



## Kai (May 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Flower Tree World doesn't move, and thus can't evade. Jinton isn't a bomb, it's a beam:
> 
> 
> 
> You evade the beam, you're good.


Jinton can be manipulated into any shape Onoki desires, Sasuke doesn't have any speed feats to suggest he can avoid 360 Jinton Beam, Sasuke is more prone to defend with CS durability and snakes without knowledge, and finally Onoki can completely envelop Sasuke in a cube and disintegrate like he would have at the summit without Tobi's intervention.



2




			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but I highly disagree that Onoki has the portrayal to casually wipe Sannin tier fighters of the map.
> 
> Who's the quickest character Onoki's actually tagged with Jinton?


Never said casually. I firmly believe Sannin are on the same general level as Onoki.

Why do you think Jinton was interrupted at nearly every juncture until the fight against Madara? Tobi had to save Sasuke with Kamui, Akatsuchi interrupted Onoki because of resulting splash damage, the first clash Jinton participated in was against *another* Jinton. 

Jinton, introduced as the only Kekkei Tota in the series, is just _that_ good.




			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Their defenses against Jinton are all reliant upon evasion. This isn't DBZ yet. Sasuke may be weaker than Jiraiya, but he's certainly faster.


Jinton's "numbers do not matter" hype would naturally account for the fact that shinobi would try to run away, now wouldn't it?

Jinton's power is a foot in the DBZ door already.





			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Mu alone is enough to get my point across, and considering that it took_ all the way until Madara activated Perfect Susano'o_ for Onoki to realize that Madara had held back against him and Mu, I _highly_ doubt that Madara lolpaneled them with genjutsu.


Again, like I told Strat, if there was only one interpretation of that fight given or allowed, I might agree with that stance. 

Personally, I don't believe Madara was just avoiding Jinton with speed. There are ways he can preempt it with genjutsu or interrupt its launch with Susanoo strikes. This is Madara we're talking about in a discussion about Hebi Sasuke: *Madara has other ways.*



Rocky said:


> Jinton gives Onoki a means to clear out a large area relatively quickly, and weight manipulation gives him a very simple way to bypass Susano'o's durability, yet his techniques _aren't_ the most useful against Madara's giant forest and clone armada?


Look, if Onoki was the same level as everyone else, he would have been knocked out by the pollen for the same long minute as the other Kage. He woke up first, cleared the surrounding area, and told everyone to wake the fuck up.

This man was *repeatedly* singled out in the fight against Madara and you think he's still the same level as the other four.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> ABC logic is bad logic in Naruto. Let's imagine a scenario.
> 
> I send a squad consisting of Kisame, Tsunade, and Gai to capture Killer B. Kisame performing the best out of anyone in this group is a very reasonable assumption to make, and yet he'd _lose_ to either Gai or Tsunade.
> 
> How about another one. Instead of Minato fighting Obito at the time of the Kyubi attack, it's Chapter 571 Naruto. Who wins that?




I fully agree that Onoki can lose by match up. Gengetsu for example. You act as if I'm against that position. Generally speaking, however, Onoki is a cut above the rest of the Kage because of his experience, will, and power as thoroughly observed by Madara.

To believe Madara wasn't accounting for Onoki's combat abilities is insane, after the stages they all went through.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> The Five Kage aren't ants. They are ninja with _unique and individual_ skillsets. This. Isn't. DBZ.


They were proven to be ants in the face of Complete Susanoo.

Do match ups among those Kage matter against Complete Susanoo? If not, then all getting slaughtered was like DBZ.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> If Onoki had actually _beaten_ Madara you'd have a portrayal argument. However, Onoki was crushed just as easily as the others when Madara stopped playing games, indicating that he doesn't pose anymore of a threat to Madara than the rest of the Kage.
> 
> Seriously, this is like saying that Preta Path is stronger than Kakuzu because he can counter powerful shit like Rasenshuriken & Goemon and Kakuzu cannot.  I don't get it.


No, if the other Kage were singled out for different areas in the Madara fight, you would have an equitable argument among the Gokage's levels relative to each other. Onoki was *repeatedly* singled out for being above par capacity in performance compared to the other four. Repeatedly. 

When Onoki was crushed as easily as the other four, that's when shit became like DBZ. Since match ups don't matter against Complete Susanoo.

If we bring the scale down? One will have multiple chances to see Onoki as the star of the Gokage.



Likes boss said:


> @Kai
> 
> Onoki may be on a tier above Deidara but he is by no means stronger than any Sannin member . His arsenal was especially tailored to fighting sussano clones, while the other Gokage members are all tailored to fighting different types of opponents . I mean CQC  fighting a bunch of auto regenerating Sussano clones sounds a lot hardee than zipping around and negating their movements with one touch.


So Onoki is especially tailored to counter Rinnegan meteor, Mokuton Forests, and Susanoo clones.

When you're that "tailored" to fight several different obstacles better than others, you're simply a cut above the rest.



			
				Likes Boss said:
			
		

> A good reason as to why Onnoki was highlighted was also because he's the only gokage member with actual history with Madara . Madara could come back to see his improvement in power.


Isn't that obvious now. Highlighting Onoki's past with Madara is precisely a device that only bolsters his standing above the rest of the Gokage.

And it's just one of several reasons why.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

I don't know why people bring up madara stopping or evading jinton from Muu and onoki to mean hebi sasuke who is tiers and tiers away can do that

madara has YM which is faster than anything hebi sasuke can think or dream of 

madara could have used genjutsu 

susanoo is strikes are also faster than sauce. 

just saying madara>>>>>>>>>>>hebi sasuke


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 12, 2015)

Yeah well, Jinton is overrated as fuck. IF Jinton was what it is on paper(on forums in this case), then Onoki'd defeat everyone who can't absorb jinton basically.

Also Jinton can't destroy Susano'o instantly, as Sasuke's skeletal hand blocked Juubito's omnyouton momentarily and saved Naruto's life. I'd say high stages of Susano'o can withstand jinton to some extend.

With that said, Onoki is most definitely stronger than Hebi Sauce, and jinton is harder to evade than Deidara's C1 and C2, so evasion alone isn't such a reliable measure against it, not accounting people around V2 Raikage tier obviously. 

And Hebi Sasuke doesn't have a reliable range offense, so he doesn't have much of a chance to hit Onoki when Onoki is charging Jinton, so he'll eventually get destroyed. 

Onoki mid dif.


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## Kai (May 12, 2015)

I don't follow the reasoning Grimm.

Susanoo hand saved Naruto, but Susanoo hand was instantly disintegrated. How does that mean Susanoo can't be instantly disintegrated when it was shown it was?


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## Trojan (May 12, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> So how did MS Madara beat Onoki and Muu at once?



Onoki was 13 years old. 
Also, Masara had the EMS back then as well.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

@kai I am confused by said statement as well 
jinton busted 25 susanoo casually why this was forgotten I don't know 

susanoo however used offensively if fast enough to prevent jinton 

sasuke cant prevent it and doesn't have the speed to avoid it as I have said before. he dies miserably, onoki low diffs


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 12, 2015)

Kai said:


> I don't follow the reasoning Grimm.
> 
> Susanoo hand saved Naruto, but Susanoo hand was instantly disintegrated. How does that mean Susanoo can't be instantly disintegrated when it was shown it was?



If it was instantly disintegrated, then Naruto'd be disintegrated too. The fact that it held off Omnyouton for a second shows that it wasn't instantly disintegrated.

And it was the weakest form of Susano'o and arguably Omnyouton is more destructive than Jinton.
So what I am saying is, the higher stages of Susano'o V3/V4 should be able to withstand Jinton to some extend. 
In Itachi's case Yata might be able to stop Jinton all together.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

25 susanoo disagree 
 
feel free to tell grimm that kai.


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## Kai (May 12, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If it was instantly disintegrated, then Naruto'd be disintegrated too. The fact that it held off Omnyouton for a second shows that it wasn't instantly disintegrated.


Why does it have to continue towards Naruto? The Gedodama seems to disintegrate whatever it comes in contact with - if we're involving Naruto who is behind Susanoo, it would be a force and momentum issue.

P.S It was Gedodama before Onmyouton was applied.


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## Arles Celes (May 12, 2015)

CS gives quite a boost despite not being quite up there with SM. A CS1 powered Sasuke could even evade Itachi''s Amaterasu for a time. With CS2 he could probably completely evade it.

Kirin is rather broken too and even faster. The prep time doesn't look so long as some say IMO after the fireballs are shoot. The user can also move while preparing the jutsu.

That said...Jinton would probably turn him to dust before he could do anything.

Oonoki is among the strongest of the kage class and only behind Hashi and Minato among the kages I think.

He was seemingly the one who put down Tobi's Shinsenjuu despite being so tired after fighting Madara.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 12, 2015)

Kai said:


> Why does it have to continue towards Naruto? The Gedodama seems to disintegrate whatever it comes in contact with - if we're involving Naruto who is behind Susanoo, it would be a force and momentum issue.


Perfect Susano'o

Why wouldn't it continue towards Naruto ? If Sasuke's Susano'o didn't put any resistance then it'd hit Naruto as it went through Susanoo's hand.



> P.S It was Gedodama before Onmyouton was applied.



Oh ok, still I'd assume it is at least as powerful as Jinton going by Hiruzen's comparison.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> CS gives quite a boost despite not being quite up there with SM. A CS1 powered Sasuke could even evade Itachi''s Amaterasu for a time. With CS2 he could probably completely evade it.
> 
> Kirin is rather broken too and even faster. The prep time doesn't look so long as some say IMO after the fireballs are shoot. The user can also move while preparing the jutsu.
> 
> ...



 cs2 sasuke could not completely evade amaterasu or he would have opted for that vs running out of chakra using oral rebirth 

also note sasuke was in partial cs2 not cs1 when itachi let him outrun amaterasu 

onoki would also be behind tobirama, gengetsu, Muu as well in my opinion


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## Rocky (May 12, 2015)

I might get to the first half later, but this is what I'm most interested in.



Kai said:


> Personally, I don't believe Madara was just avoiding Jinton with speed. There are ways he can preempt it with genjutsu or interrupt its launch with Susanoo strikes. This is Madara we're talking about in a discussion about Hebi Sasuke: *Madara has other ways.*



Madara has other ways because Madara?

Preempting with Genjutsu is something that doesn't work unless they deliberately stare into the Sharingan, and in that case Hebi Sasuke could accomplish the same thing. And Susano'o strikes...when the two can fly? When Mu can turn invisible? 



> Look, if Onoki was the same level as everyone else, he would have been knocked out by the pollen for the same long minute as the other Kage. He woke up first, cleared the surrounding area, and told everyone to wake the fuck up.



Please stop ignoring what I say and repeating yourself by telling me what I already know. Unless you're saying that "strongest will" = strongest fighter, then all you're doing is saying why Onoki is better than the others at stopping Flower Tree World.



> Generally speaking, however, Onoki is a cut above the rest of the Kage because of his experience, will, and power as thoroughly observed by Madara.



I'm not arguing against Onoki having the strongest will of the bunch, and I recognize that he's the most experienced. 

That experience likely helped him keep his cool and deal with his own Susano'o _before_ worrying about his comrades, unlike A who paused to worry about Tsunade and got caught.



> They were proven to be ants in the face of Complete Susanoo.
> 
> Do match ups among those Kage matter against Complete Susanoo? If not, then all getting slaughtered was like DBZ.



They were not ants and will never be ants. Match-ups _always_ matter. 

If I stick MS Obito, Pain, SM Kabuto, and Itachi in a fight with Perfect Susano'o, the latter three get ran the fuck over while Obito trolls the entire construct with his intangibility. That doesn't make Obito the unquestioned strongest of the bunch.



> No, if the other Kage were singled out for different areas in the Madara fight...



They were. 

Onoki didn't stop everything. He stopped techniques that were larger in scale, but _he_ wasn't the one that intercepted Madara's Fireballs. _He _wasn't the one that found a way to nullify Preta Path. _He_ wasn't the one to could build sealing pyramids to get around Edo Tensei regeneration.  



> If we bring the scale down? One will have multiple chances to see Onoki as the star of the Gokage.



The "star" of the Five Kage_ in a fight against Madara._ You change the opponent, and he isn't always going to do as well.


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## Trojan (May 12, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> CS gives quite a boost despite not being quite up there with SM. A CS1 powered Sasuke could even evade Itachi''s Amaterasu for a time. With CS2 he could probably completely evade it.
> 
> Kirin is rather broken too and even faster. The prep time doesn't look so long as some say IMO after the fireballs are shoot. The user can also move while preparing the jutsu.
> 
> ...



@Bold
How can u possibly mention those fodders, but not Narudo? 

lol, am sorry, but I can't help but laugh when I see someone still takes the Amatersu seriously. :rofl


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I might get to the first half later, but this is what I'm most interested in.
> 
> 
> 
> Madara has other ways because Madara?



no because YM and susanoo



> Preempting with Genjutsu is something that doesn't work unless they deliberately stare into the Sharingan, and in that case Hebi Sasuke could accomplish the same thing. And Susano'o strikes...when the two can fly? When Mu can turn invisible?



he must be visible to use jinton though. which is the only way he can harm madara who is susanoo camping. he turns visible he eats YM

something sasuke doesn't have. YM is known to travel ridiculous distances so flying wont help much. they would still be very reachable


> Please stop ignoring what I say and repeating yourself by telling me what I already know. Unless you're saying that "strongest will" = strongest fighter, then all you're doing is saying why Onoki is better than the others at stopping Flower Tree World.



no coment



> I'm not arguing against Onoki having the strongest will of the bunch, and I recognize that he's the most experienced.



true 



> That experience likely helped him keep his cool and deal with his own Susano'o _before_ worrying about his comrades, unlike A who paused to worry about Tsunade and got caught.



onoki jutsu are better suited to deal with susanoo. A is pretty much a susanoo victim



> They were not ants and will never be ants. Match-ups _always_ matter.
> 
> If I stick MS Obito, Pain, SM Kabuto, and Itachi in a fight with Perfect Susano'o, the latter three get ran the fuck over while Obito trolls the entire construct with his intangibility. That doesn't make Obito the unquestioned strongest of the bunch.



actually obito is the unquestioned strongest of that bunch. oops thread idea. wanna do it or should I. am curious. but I don't see how anyone but kabuto puts up a decent fight thanks to sound ninjutsu and genjutsu

. Pain gets wrapped or spiked. all pain jutsu is much slower than kamui phasing 

itachi it has been done before too many people agree obito would win no questions asked. 

So yes obito would be the unquestioned strongest of the bunch same way onoki was. both have 1 thing in common jutsu to actually not be trolled instantly by PS. onoki if he can land jinton can still damage PS, obito can phase through the others got nothing at all. 



> They were.



true 



> Onoki didn't stop everything. He stopped techniques that were larger in scale, but _he_ wasn't the one that intercepted Madara's Fireballs. _He _wasn't the one that found a way to nullify Preta Path. _He_ wasn't the one to could build sealing pyramids to get around Edo Tensei regeneration.



trie




> The "star" of the Five Kage_ in a fight against Madara._ You change the opponent, and he isn't always going to do as well.


[/QUOTE]

this is true. A will deal better with minato and obito than onoki would but on average onoki will deal with an enemy better than A would

pick 10 random ninja and analyse who does better against those ninja A, or onoki
am sure you will come to the onoki conclusion


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## Rocky (May 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> pick 10 random ninja and analyse who does better against those ninja A, or onoki



I find them to be on the same level, so it'd depend on the thread conditions. 

Generally speaking, Onoki is going to do better against opponents with higher durability & damage soak thanks to his superior firepower. That said, A can fight at peak efficiency for _much_ longer, sustain more damage, and evade attacks Onoki cannot. 

Characters like Obito, Minato, and Tobirama can outlast Dust Release with ease and win. Characters like Summit Sasuke, Itachi, and Kakashi have access to quick, sealess techniques that can preempt Jinton and kill Onoki. All of those characters would struggle far more with A's speed & stamina.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I find them to be on the same level, so it'd depend on the thread conditions.
> 
> Generally speaking, Onoki is going to do better against opponents with higher durability & damage soak thanks to his superior firepower. That said, A can fight at peak efficiency for _much_ longer, sustain more damage, and evade attacks Onoki cannot.
> 
> Characters like Obito, Minato, and Tobirama can outlast Dust Release with ease and win. Characters like Summit Sasuke, Itachi, and Kakashi have access to quick, sealess techniques that can preempt Jinton and kill Onoki. All of those characters would struggle far more with A's speed & stamina.



well done. perfect reply. 
this is true, however depending on the attack onoki need not evade he can simply jinton it and be sure to win out . cuz jinton>>>>>>>>> all attacks not So6P related. 

but all those characters eg
obito: kamui phase trolls A all day
minato and tobirama: hirashin and clones troll A all day
itachi, sasuke: susanoo camp. they would have the same level of difficulty against A than against onoki 
kakashi : kamui wrap once again 

I don't see how these characters handle jinton easier than speed when all these characters got jutsu which makes A speed pointless. 

susanoo camping and ST jutsu are A counters. he cant hit them while those jutsu are used. now its a lot easier to win a fight if all you have to focus on is attack knowing your enemy attack will just bounce off. or be avoided 

the one person ill say who A handles better than onoki is obito due to the specific Nature of obito fighting style.


----------



## Arles Celes (May 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> cs2 sasuke could not completely evade amaterasu or he would have opted for that vs running out of chakra using oral rebirth
> 
> also note sasuke was in partial cs2 not cs1 when itachi let him outrun amaterasu
> 
> onoki would also be behind tobirama, gengetsu, Muu as well in my opinion



Not the first time a character did something that was not exactly the best available option. 

Like how Ei or Naruto are not always using their max shunshin.

That said using Oral Rebirth did allow for a surprise attack plus setting the clouds. Using CS2 to just dodge would not allow for such a surprise attack. Using CS also consumes enormous amounts of chakra and corrodes the user's body.

Also partial transformations do not equal full actual transformations and that applies to most if not all cases. Similar to how Bee is not Hachibi level when he manifests a single Hachibi tentacle in base.

As for the last point I think Oonoki would have a good shot at any of those guys you mentioned even if he wouldn't be a certain winner as they would have a similar chance of winning.


----------



## Trojan (May 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> well done. perfect reply.
> this is true, however depending on the attack onoki need not evade he can simply jinton it and be sure to win out . cuz jinton>>>>>>>>> all attacks not So6P related.
> 
> but all those characters eg
> ...



I'll pay to see that.


----------



## Veracity (May 12, 2015)

Kai said:


> So Onoki is especially tailored to counter Rinnegan meteor, Mokuton Forests, and Susanoo clones.
> 
> When you're that "tailored" to fight several different obstacles better than others, you're simply a cut above the rest.
> 
> ...



Yes, Onoki was tailored to fighting most of Madara's techniques like Sussano and Mokuton branches. He can counter Moukton branches because he is the only kage with a large enough AoE , and he can counter Sussano because he can stop its movements with one touch . It's the same reason why Onoki would have far more problems against an opponent like Gai, than Ay or Tsuande would. 

That's not the case. I think you need to re-read the fight and notice all the times Tsuande was highlighted. She was highlighted even more than Onnoki was tbh,

Onnoki highlighted when he:
? destroyed flower world
? negated sussanos( Madara stated he needed to destroy Onnoki's will)
? had a chapter dedicated to his "stone will", considering thats the only time KISHI wants to display any of his background information, and because Onoki actually engaged Madara in the past.

Tsuande highlighted when:
? she heals the other Kage, allowing them to continue fighting.
? She activates Byakago and stands on the front lines against Madara Uchiha + the kage use combination attack to create an opening for her to attack Madara.
? kage create another opening for her to land hit on Madara + Madara says he needs to kill the medic first to destroy the team. 
? bats the Fireballa away when the other kage are too tired and slow.
? is the one to heal the kage and save their lives . 
Then notice how as soon as the kage get back to the battlefield, the only kage that continues to do anything at all is Tsuande .


----------



## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Not the first time a character did something that was not exactly the best available option.
> 
> Like how Ei or Naruto are not always using their max shunshin.
> 
> ...



sasuke in any form got no speed to assume he can evade amaterasu that itachi was actually holding back on 

note sasuke entire plan was to use oral rebirth to avoid amaterasu which he knew he couldn't physically avoid so kishi firmly disagrees with you 

Naruto not always using his max shunshin and A makes a lot of sense though. Naruto couldn't against obito, defeats the purpose of team work +obito will casually phase through 

so waste of chakra. A used his max speed throughout when fighting madara however the only time he didn't is when he was bullying team taka and KCM Naruto+bee 

so yes characters wouldn't use max shunshin unless there is a point to it. sasuke point here was saving chakra, if he could out run it would have been the better option

vs planning to get hit by it and survive thanks to his replacement technique. 

your assumption also goes against the manga, Ei speed was what was required to get out of MS LoS sasuke speed is far too slow to get out of itachi LOS


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 12, 2015)

> Never said casually. I firmly believe Sannin are on the same general level as Onoki.
> 
> Why do you think Jinton was interrupted at nearly every juncture until the fight against Madara? Tobi had to save Sasuke with Kamui, Akatsuchi interrupted Onoki because of resulting splash damage, the first clash Jinton participated in was against another Jinton.
> 
> Jinton, introduced as the only Kekkei Tota in the series, is just that good.



Adding to this.

Onoki had to have his jinton removed for there to be a fight with Deidara.  That's the author, giving us a reason why Onoki didn't atomize Deidara and Kabuto with jinton.

Onoki was only allowed to use jinton on people with hard counters, like Preta Path, because it's too powerful of an ability.  Hebi gets disintegrated in the BD, just like Taka.    Perhaps if the Sannin or Prime Hiruzen fought in the manga, they'd be given a counter, or circumstances that would remove jinton from the battle, like with Deidara and Madara.  

Prime Hiruzen makes sense, since he was the strongest of the kage, and he knew Onoki's jinton ability, but Prime Hiruzen was also portrayed as being stronger than any of his students or predecessors, so that doesn't give us anything.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 12, 2015)

Well, Jinton's major flaw is requiring the user to be stationary, so it would make sense for Jinton to be obsolete against an aerial fighter than has great maneuverability, especially one that can evade massive Sand Tsunamis created by Gaara such as Deidara.

 I do believe that even from the audience's perspective that Jinton would not be so effective against someone such as Deidara who has the means to get out of Onoki's range. It's still rather effective and implied to be effective against close/mid-range fighters such as KCM Naruto as implied by Muu (provided you have the reaction feats necessary to pull it off), but against one of the strongest Long-range fighters such as Deidara, I doubt it.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 12, 2015)

When was it ever stated you needed to be stationary for jinton?

Onoki certainly wasn't stationary when he was spinning disco fever circles on those trees.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 12, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> When was it ever stated you needed to be stationary for jinton?
> 
> Onoki certainly wasn't stationary when he was spinning disco fever circles on those trees.



 When was this?

 From what I recall, Onoki was mostly stationary when using Jinton against Madara, Sasuke, Deidara (as he attempted to Jinton), and even Muu. Even Muu was also seen having to become stationary against KCM Naruto as he couldn't maintain the chakra built up for Jinton as he was forced to dodge as well as the fact that Muu was forced to stay stationary against KCM Naruto instead of getting some range in order to use it and we all know Onoki is Muu's disciple.


----------



## Bonly (May 13, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> When was this.



He's prolly referring to this. Jinton was used in a 360 degrees fashion so the only way for that to happen would be for Onoki himself to move while firing off the Jinton


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 13, 2015)

Bonly said:


> He's prolly referring to this. Jinton was used in a 360 degrees fashion so the only way for that to happen would be for Onoki himself to move while firing off the Jinton



 He's still stationary while charging the Jinton and his total displacement is still zero which hurts him here.

 I will admit, he did technically move there, and that feat could potentially catch someone with aerial prowess such as Deidara even with his great maneuverability. Still, I doubt Deidara would allow Onoki to do that, especially since he seemed to have feared his Jinton.


----------



## Bonly (May 13, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> He's still stationary while charging the Jinton and his total displacement is still zero which hurts him here.
> 
> I will admit, *he did technically move there,* and that feat could potentially catch someone with aerial prowess such as Deidara even with his great maneuverability. Still, I doubt Deidara would allow Onoki to do that, especially since he seemed to have feared his Jinton.



And the bold is what matters to PoW's post.


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## UchihaX28 (May 13, 2015)

Bonly said:


> And the bold is what matters to PoW's post.



 I never denied that. It's just the idea of being stationary while accumulating chakra for Jinton is what really hurts the user here and leaves him vulnerable for an attack. That was evident against Muu.

 But yeah, being able to aim Jinton will obviously help, but there's also the factor as to how long he can maintain Jinton. Onoki isn't exactly one with high stamina.


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## Bonly (May 13, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I never denied that. It's just the idea of being stationary while accumulating chakra for Jinton is what really hurts the user here and leaves him vulnerable for an attack. That was evident against Muu.
> 
> But yeah, being able to aim Jinton will obviously help.



"Well, Jinton's major flaw is requiring the user to be stationary, " saying it like that makes it seems like your implying one can't move period if they want to use Jinton(not just that they can't move while gathering chakra) hence why PoW brought up Onoki moving with it.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 13, 2015)

Thanks Bonly.

Ninjas in general like to not move while they gather or build chakra.  But that's never meant that they can't.  For example, Kakashi will stand still and grab his hand to mold chakra and form raikiri while he has the time and distance to do so, but he's also whipped it out in full sprint when he needs to.  The same with most jutsu, really.  Eiso, raiton flow, katons, rasengan, bijuudama, suijinheki, genjutsus...  There was a famous debate about Minato not being able to use his barrier in motion because he hadn't shown it, but the counter response, I think from Bonly or Rocky, was, "What did you want him to do, run laps around the mountain before he put it up?"  I think the answer is that it's easier to focus and aim when you're not moving, but it's still not impossible for any decent ninja with any jutsu they're versed in, and that ninja aren't going to move when they don't have to.  

Even if it were true that jinton requires stillness, it's not much of an opening, because in one moment there's going to be an eradication cube there to eat any attack coming at you.


----------



## Icegaze (May 13, 2015)

@POW and Bonly true onoki can move while using jinton 
I think the reason madara could troll onoki while not being serious is

All MS jutsu are inherently faster and easier to use than jinton, so its easy pickings. 

we saw with KCM Naruto that even mid jinton if your attack is faster you are going to troll jinton all day 

sadly sasuke lacks MS or any jutsu quicker than jinton so he dies miserably

I don't get the recent hebi sauce hype, when the best he did was draw with a sick dying itachi who was holding back 

beating deidara is hardly an achievement, with the right skill set which most high kage level have deidara is a fly by comparison


----------



## Kai (May 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Madara has other ways because Madara?
> 
> Preempting with Genjutsu is something that doesn't work unless they deliberately stare into the Sharingan, and in that case Hebi Sasuke could accomplish the same thing. And Susano'o strikes...when the two can fly? When Mu can turn invisible?


You're just asking questions on a speculative fight that you initially brought up. You have no argument.

You favor the position that Madara avoided Jinton with speed. There are other interpretations to an off panel fight.

And seriously, Madara avoiding Jinton with speed is more likely than using genjutsu and Susanoo combinations to best Onoki and Mu? Okay 




			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Please stop ignoring what I say and repeating yourself by telling me what I already know. Unless you're saying that "strongest will" = strongest fighter, then all you're doing is saying why Onoki is better than the others at stopping Flower Tree World.


Onoki's will proved he was the strongest fighter among the Gokage. 

Did I ever say match ups don't matter? If you're going to sit there and tell me a fight against Madara isn't a true test of one's power and is just another "match up", then we might as well compare EMS Sasuke to Kakuzu in fighting different opponents. 




			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> I'm not arguing against Onoki having the strongest will of the bunch, and I recognize that he's the most experienced.
> 
> That experience likely helped him keep his cool and deal with his own Susano'o _before_ worrying about his comrades, unlike A who paused to worry about Tsunade and got caught.


That's not what Madara told us through his thoughts on Onoki. Keeping cool has nothing to do with it.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> They were not ants and will never be ants. Match-ups _always_ matter.
> 
> If I stick MS Obito, Pain, SM Kabuto, and Itachi in a fight with Perfect Susano'o, the latter three get ran the fuck over while Obito trolls the entire construct with his intangibility. That doesn't make Obito the unquestioned strongest of the bunch.


No, match ups don't always matter. I don't know where you got that ridiculous idea.

You think providing an example where a match up matters changes the facts? How about I give you one of many examples where match up is irrelevant?

Gokage were complete ants before Complete Susanoo. What did they do against it that is any more than an ant can do?

1. After Madara unleashed Complete Susanoo, all five Kage were slaughtered the same.
2. Before Madara unleashed Complete Susanoo, Onoki was singled out for his excellence in spirit and combat.

You know what that means? The massive spike in power via Complete Susanoo made all Gokage look the same, and also drowned out any significance of match up based combat, i.e DBZ.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> They were.
> 
> Onoki didn't stop everything. He stopped techniques that were larger in scale, but _he_ wasn't the one that intercepted Madara's Fireballs. _He _wasn't the one that found a way to nullify Preta Path. _He_ wasn't the one to could build sealing pyramids to get around Edo Tensei regeneration.


Again, you're putting words in my mouth and preemptively assuming I'm taking certain stances  

1. Never once did I state Onoki did everything.
2. Never once did I state other members of the Gokage didn't have their own shining moments, Tsunade in particular.

Was Tsunade praised for being slower, yet stronger than Raikage? Yes. Were the Gokage as a collective praised for their teamwork? Yes. *However, not a single one of the other four were singled out AMONG THE OTHERS* like Onoki was. 




			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> The "star" of the Five Kage_ in a fight against Madara._ You change the opponent, and he isn't always going to do as well.


If he does better in a fight against Madara than the other four Kage, then he's on a higher consideration than the other four. Why would you equate one of the most powerful villains to another generic match up based character?

As far as *general level* is concerned, Madara was a perfect challenge to expose their true power as Kage.

Mei: "Don’t tell us that it is unfair…\\ *because that is our way to acknowledge your strength\\
You are uchiha madara after all\\*
Madara: "I will not say that it is unfair\\ 5 against 1… it is a good number for a little game\\
Tajuu mokuton bunshin no jutsu(multiple wood element clones technique)!!\\"
11
Madara: "with this we are 5 against one\\ … don't say that it is unfair, *you are the five kages after all\\"*

I probably won't ever understand you trivializing the Madara fight as a "match up" based fight.



			
				Likes Boss said:
			
		

> Yes, Onoki was tailored to fighting most of Madara's techniques like Sussano and Mokuton branches. He can counter Moukton branches because he is the only kage with a large enough AoE , and he can counter Sussano because he can stop its movements with one touch . It's the same reason why Onoki would have far more problems against an opponent like Gai, than Ay or Tsuande would.


Onoki countered Tengai Shinsei, a Rinnegan technique, Kajukai Korin, a Mokuton technique, and Susanoo, a Sharingan technique.

That puts him on a higher level than the other members of the Gokage if he's that "tailored" to fight past that variety of powerful obstacles.

And like I told Rocky, would other members of the Gokage perform better than Onoki against certain opponents based on match up? Absolutely.

But that speaks nothing about general level. The fight against Madara speaks volumes about the Kages' capacity, or anyone's for that matter.


----------



## Trojan (May 13, 2015)

Madara did use his Susanoo against against Onoki and Mu.


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## Veracity (May 13, 2015)

@Kai
Onnoki and Gaara together, as the only kage in the battlefield, countered the meteor at close to the expense of their lives. Onnoki also has specific techniques that counter the other techniques you mentioned, which I've already explained in previous posts. Tsuande counters preta path, Tsuande counters Tsukuyomi, and would counter basically any Taijustu variant significantly better than Onnoki. So she can be just as versatile as him in the sense that all of those Justu fuck Onnoki's day over .

& I don't know why you think Onnoki just straight over powers All of those Justu or something? Do you not remember the entire Gokage needing to resort to combination attacks just to land attacks on Madara and his ribcage Sussano ? 

Still confused as to why you think Onnoki was placed on a level above Tsuande ? I mean that was the whole reason behind me proving that Tsuande was basically highlighted just as much as he was minus the background information. Madara had 2 reasons to kill of Tsuande first from the group, and still she was the last to remain despite using a bulk of her chakra to heal/chakra replenish the kage + using her combat skills to stand at the front of the lines. Tsuande is a savage , and clearly is on the same level as Onnoki.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2015)

Onoki wins this. Onoki was able to maneuver around 5 Susano'o wielding Madara clones and make physical contact with each of them to heavy weight them. If he can do that w/o being killed, his speed and doton techniques are more than sufficient to deal with Hebi-Sasuke's speed and eventually touch him. Once that's accomplished it's GG for Sasuke as if he's hit by any of Onoki's weight alteration or Jinton techniques the match ends. So regardless of whether Sasuke can avoid Onoki's large Jinton beam, which I think he perhaps could, though not consistently, he is still loosing here. Perhaps if he had full knowledge he could meta game enough to have a chance of pulling out Kirin before Onoki kills him, but it would still require him to play an absolutely perfect game and even than i'm not sure Kirin defeats Onoki, as Sasuke could easily hit a Iwabushin and Jinton above Onoki's head may still be able to protect him from Kirin's impact. 



Likes boss said:


> Still confused as to why you think Onnoki was placed on a level above Tsuande ? I mean that was the whole reason behind me proving that Tsuande was basically highlighted just as much as he was minus the background information. Madara had 2 reasons to kill of Tsuande first from the group, and still she was the last to remain despite using a bulk of her chakra to heal/chakra replenish the kage + using her combat skills to stand at the front of the lines. Tsuande is a savage , and clearly is on the same level as Onnoki.


Tsunade's relative "level" is dependent on the amount of chakra she has stored in the Byakugo no In. She lasted longer than the other Gokage, because Dan gave her additional chakra for Byakugo no In. This is something she could of course accomplish on her own if given enough time to store chakra, however in that fight itself she did not have that quantity sealed and therefore needed Dan's assistance. Simply put Onoki in that fight was stronger than Tsunade and was decisively the strongest Gokage; Madara even acknowledges such by focusing on Onoki as the main threat. However Tsunade can be stronger or even much stronger than Onoki, depending on the quantity of chakra she has stored in Byakugo no In, which makes Tsunade's relative overall "level" tough to rate. Same thing with Suckura, due to Kishi's vastly overpowering Byakugo with enough chakra storage.


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## Rocky (May 13, 2015)

Kai said:


> Onoki's will proved he was the strongest fighter among the Gokage.



Since when does strength of will correlate to overall strength? J-man would be Top Tier for willing himself back to life.



> If you're going to sit there and tell me a fight against Madara isn't a true test of one's power and is just another "match up", then we might as well compare EMS Sasuke to Kakuzu in fighting different opponents.



Onoki didn't actually push Madara any further than the others. He got steamrolled right along with the rest of them. The only time he "shined" was when faced with Madara's *lesser techniques. * I don't know what's up with that EMS Sasuke-Kakuzu thing, but that reminds me of an analogy I used earlier that you ignored.

If a team consisting of Preta Path, Kakuzu, and Sasori are fighting BM Naruto, then Preta Path can have his few minutes of fame by countering Rasenshuriken or Odama Rasengan, _which the other two have no answer to_, yet we all agree that Preta Path is the weaker of the two.

You can't look at how Onoki faired against certain techniques to determine how well he did against Madara as a whole. For that you'd have to look at the result of the fight, and it was Onoki getting _stomped_ just as badly as all the others.



> That's not what Madara told us through his thoughts on Onoki. Keeping cool has nothing to do with it.



I'm pretty sure Madara told us that his combat _experience_ was beginning to show itself. 



> No, match ups don't always matter. I don't know where you got that ridiculous idea.
> 
> You think providing an example where a match up matters changes the facts? How about I give you one of many examples where match up is irrelevant?



The Gokage losing to Perfect Susano'o is not an example of match up being irrelevant. 

None of them had a jutsu to counter it. 



> Again, you're putting words in my mouth and preemptively assuming I'm taking certain stances...
> 
> ...Never once did I state other members of the Gokage didn't have their own shining moments, Tsunade in particular...
> 
> *...However, not a single one of the other four were singled out AMONG THE OTHERS* like Onoki was.



I'm putting words in your mouth? Well do I have to tell you that "having a shining moment" is synonymous with being "singled out among the others?"



> If he does better in a fight against Madara than the other four Kage, then he's on a higher consideration than the other four. Why would you equate one of the most powerful villains to another generic match up based character?



ck

Kai. 

_He didn't do better._ 

If Onoki had _won _against Madara, and I was trying to say that match up was the reason, then I'd agree that I was being dumb. But he didn't win, he only got around specific techniques, and for that we look at match-up.

Sasuke was able to ignore Mugen Tsukuyomi, but that doesn't make him superior to Naruto who would get paneled by it. Sasuke being able to deal with one of Kaguya's most powerful Jutsu doesn't make him any closer to her than Naruto is though.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 13, 2015)

Onoki got called out by Madara for shining above the other kage, and his performance backed that up. Seems pretty clear that he was above the other kage.


----------



## Veracity (May 13, 2015)

Kai said:


> You're just asking questions on a speculative fight that you initially brought up. You have no argument.
> 
> You favor the position that Madara avoided Jinton with speed. There are other interpretations to an off panel fight.
> 
> ...





Turrin said:


> Onoki wins this. Onoki was able to maneuver around 5 Susano'o wielding Madara clones and make physical contact with each of them to heavy weight them. If he can do that w/o being killed, his speed and doton techniques are more than sufficient to deal with Hebi-Sasuke's speed and eventually touch him. Once that's accomplished it's GG for Sasuke as if he's hit by any of Onoki's weight alteration or Jinton techniques the match ends. So regardless of whether Sasuke can avoid Onoki's large Jinton beam, which I think he perhaps could, though not consistently, he is still loosing here. Perhaps if he had full knowledge he could meta game enough to have a chance of pulling out Kirin before Onoki kills him, but it would still require him to play an absolutely perfect game and even than i'm not sure Kirin defeats Onoki, as Sasuke could easily hit a Iwabushin and Jinton above Onoki's head may still be able to protect him from Kirin's impact.
> 
> 
> Tsunade's relative "level" is dependent on the amount of chakra she has stored in the Byakugo no In. She lasted longer than the other Gokage, because Dan gave her additional chakra for Byakugo no In. This is something she could of course accomplish on her own if given enough time to store chakra, however in that fight itself she did not have that quantity sealed and therefore needed Dan's assistance. Simply put Onoki in that fight was stronger than Tsunade and was decisively the strongest Gokage; Madara even acknowledges such by focusing on Onoki as the main threat. However Tsunade can be stronger or even much stronger than Onoki, depending on the quantity of chakra she has stored in Byakugo no In, which makes Tsunade's relative overall "level" tough to rate. Same thing with Suckura, due to Kishi's vastly overpowering Byakugo with enough chakra storage.



Did you also forget that Tsuande was actively restoring the kage the entire time ? So it only makes sense for a medical ninja( who can Byakago boost),  that also fights on the front lines as a CQC specialist against a god damn EMS Sussano, would waste a lot more chakra then Onnoki.

Lol, I disagree. Onnoki was not the most powerful Gokage, nor was that implied. You may have a point, if Onnoki was the only kage ever highlighted. But that's not the case at all.  Madara outright stated that because Tsuande was a female medical Senju, that he was going to put forth extra effort to ensure that she was the first to die, and even after making such statement, Tsuande was the only kage he wasn't able to kill in the end. He also made the claim that the Gokage were weak then revoked said claim after witnessing Tsuande kick him out his Sussano and obliterate his wood Bunshin. He did admit that Onnoki was a problem, but he also said that if he killed Tsuande, the kage would die soon after: at least six days
And before you pin that solely on Tsuande being the medic, you have to realize that she also acts as a chakra booster and fights directly on the front lines just like the other kage. So even if she didn't offensively do as well as Onnoki, she also served as support + a medic. So saying Onnoki is more powerful isn't supported. It's also to note that Onnoki's arsenal is more tailored to fighting 5 Sussano clones compared to Tsuande. Going CQC against one of the strongest defenses in the manga isn't the best. But against Madara, did you notice that Onnoki did t fare any better than the rest of the kage?


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 13, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Onoki got called out by Madara for shining above the other kage, and his performance backed that up. Seems pretty clear that he was above the other kage.




Yeah I agree with that.
Onoki was certainly the "leader" of that group, due to his overall experience, even Madara stated as such. 
I'd also place onoki above the rest in terms of strength.

1 - Onoki
2 - A
3 - Gaara
4 - Tsunade
5 - Mei


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## Rocky (May 13, 2015)

Tsunade's level is the same as the other two Sannin. If we really want to identify the strongest, then she should get the benefit of the doubt given how much hype the Sannin have in general.

Oh, and if Kishimoto truly intended for Onoki to be definitively above the others, than I feel like the time to say so would have been when Mifune was selecting the alliance leader. Mifune could have said along the lines of "while he [Onoki] is the most powerful, he has been used by the Akatsuki too many times."

But no. Instead we got "he is too old and has trouble moving, and he's the least trustworthy." What I got from the whole summit arc is that these guys are all on the same level, though personally I do think Tsunade, A, and Onoki have better feats.


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## FlamingRain (May 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> J-man would be Top Tier for willing himself back to life.





He did defeat Jūbito.


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## Veracity (May 13, 2015)

Bruh wtf? Onnoki's hype is being exaggerated to the max Rn.

IIRC, the only thing said about Onnoki was that:
• he dances well
• he was a problem
• and that his fighting experience was paying off.

While Tsuande was singled off as the first kage Madara needed/wanted to kill, and ended up as the ONLY kage, able to walk away from that battle alive. He also directly labeled her as weak, and then revoked that statement after being leg dropped through his Susaano. She also clearly was highlighted above the other kage when her will of fire was blatantly created to equal Onnoki's stone will, and when she stood in front with her Byakago seal activated as the other 4 kage created openings for her to land hits on Madara. And the kage were more than welcome to let Tsuande command the team in that instance, just as they were more than welcome to let Onnoki command the charge against the 25 Sussano clones. Tsuande and Onnoki clearly both played leader ship roles. And it's pretty damn easy to see that. 

Not to mention Tsuandes hype before that completely eclipses Onnoki's. So saying he's superior to Tsuande is based on what?


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## Legendary Itachi (May 13, 2015)

Pretty sure he wants to kill her first because she's a Senju, not because of her power. 

Madara would've killed her without effort if he really wants so not that it matters.


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## Veracity (May 13, 2015)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Pretty sure he wants to kill her first because she's a Senju, not because of her power.
> 
> Madara would've killed her without effort if he really wants so not that it matters.



Never said he wanted to kill for any other reason did I? He wanted to kill her because she's a medical Senju.

But he succeeded in killing the other kage...


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade's level is the same as the other two Sannin. If we really want to identify the strongest, then she should get the benefit of the doubt given how much hype the Sannin have in general.
> 
> Oh, and if Kishimoto truly intended for Onoki to be definitively above the others, than I feel like the time to say so would have been when Mifune was selecting the alliance leader. Mifune could have said along the lines of "while he [Onoki] is the most powerful, he has been used by the Akatsuki too many times."
> 
> But no. Instead we got "he is too old and has trouble moving, and he's the least trustworthy." What I got from the whole summit arc is that these guys are all on the same level, though personally I do think Tsunade, A, and Onoki have better feats.



Tsunade overall(including her value as a support for her team) is definitely on the same level with the other two sannin, but in pure combat potential and versatility, she falls short, imo. Even with her fancy healing techniques, she is basically "smashy smashy" and can be trolled by a large variety of techniques.

We all know Kishimoto refrains from using such statements. He is pretty vague in strength comparisons and such. But looking @ war arc, I don't think he needed to spell out that Onoki was the strongest Kage, his performance made it pretty clear. I also think Jinton is more lethal and more advanced than anything the rest of the kage have in their arsenal.


----------



## StarWanderer (May 13, 2015)

> He hit madara.
> He was as fast as Deidara, who's also on the same tier speed as Sasuke.
> 
> he fodderized 5 of Madara's clones with 5 V3 Susanoos, when sasuke was like a little b in front
> of a far weaker guy (itachi) and 1 Susanoo.



Madara never tried to dodge his Jinton. He wanted to demorilise kage by showing Hashi's face in his chest, and he wanted to absorb his Jinton later on. And he destroyed all those Madara's clones with Susanoo's thanks to Tsunade's chakra. 

Buuuut... Onoki is superior to Hebi Sasuke anyway.


----------



## Rocky (May 13, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Tsunade overall(including her value as a support for her team) is definitely on the same level with the other two sannin, but in pure combat potential and versatility, she falls short, imo. Even with her fancy healing techniques, she is basically "smashy smashy" and can be trolled by a large variety of techniques.



"Smashy smashy" is pretty decent when you've got super strength, a boatload of stamina, and regen. She can only be outright beaten by techniques that get around regen, and there aren't a whole lot of those. Otherwise, you have to outlast her.



> We all know Kishimoto refrains from using such statements.



I don't know what you mean. He's singled out an individual as being the strongest of a group in the past.



> But looking @ war arc, I don't think he needed to spell out that Onoki was the strongest Kage, his performance made it pretty clear.



lol

Prior to waking up after Flower Tree World, Onoki would have lost to Mu without Naruto, likely would have lost to Trollkage without Gaara, and got a meteor dropped on his head. His back was an issue against both Kage.

What I garnered from the war arc was that Onoki was past his prime.



> I also think Jinton is more lethal and more advanced than anything the rest of the kage have in their arsenal.



It's more advanced and lethal than mostly everything in the manga. That said, it isn't the tool but the one using it that determines strength.

Onoki is old with physical issues that directly effect his combat ability. That's a problem, and Mifune noticed that much when selecting who would be leader.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 13, 2015)

Bonly said:


> "Well, Jinton's major flaw is requiring the user to be stationary, " saying it like that makes it seems like your implying one can't move period if they want to use Jinton(not just that they can't move while gathering chakra) hence why PoW brought up Onoki moving with it.



 I concede. I should've been more specific, so sorry about the confusion.

 Good point PoW, however, Onoki and Muu (who is Onoki's teach) has shown no feats of being able to do what you implied. What those other techniques have in common is that they only require one type of nature manipulation while Onoki and Muu have to exert considerable effort in order to use Jinton because it requires three different types of nature manipulation which leads me to believe is that if Onoki has only been seen accumulating chakra while stationary, then he must have to be stationary. There's also the idea that has been mentioned multiple times throughout the manga that, "You can't look left and right at the same time." Same idea here. Moving while accumulating chakra requires even more considerable effort and this is unlikely when Jinton requires an immense amount of chakra manipulation in order to even use it making it very unlikely he can just gather chakra for Jinton. Furthermore, why didn't Muu just move while powering up his Jinton when KCM Naruto attempted to blindside him? Muu is more adept due to being Onoki's teacher yet he was unable to, even though being able to would've yielded a sufficient counterattack that Muu would've been able to take advantage of.

 That's my perspective on it and yours certainly works too. As I said before, Onoki is more likely to win, but that doesn't mean Hebi Sasuke cannot secure the win.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> "Smashy smashy" is pretty decent when you've got super strength, a boatload of stamina, and regen. She can only be outright beaten by techniques that get around regen, and there aren't a whole lot of those. Otherwise, you have to outlast her.


Also techniques that can trap or disable her. Simply running around and kiting her is also very effective. She has no remarkable speed, and she has no ranged techniques. 



> I don't know what you mean. He's singled out an individual as being the strongest of a group in the past.


Even if he did, they are very rare. He is most of the time pretty vague about power levels.



> lol
> 
> Prior to waking up after Flower Tree World, Onoki would have lost to Mu without Naruto, likely would have lost to Trollkage without Gaara, and got a meteor dropped on his head. His back was an issue against both Kage.


I am pretty sure Tsunade, A or Mei or Gaara alone would be able to stop that meteor 

Muu would defeat rest of the kage too. So would troll kage.
Gaara only defeated him with the help of Onoki and his dad's gold sand. 



> What I garnered from the war arc was that Onoki was past his prime.


Definitely. 
But for a guy who can fly and is mostly a ranged fighter, physical restrictions aren't  that big of a deal.
His back problems aren't consistent, they didn't occur against Madara, and that was his longest battle. And he most definitely outshined the rest in that encounter. The encounter that mattered the most. 



> It's more advanced and lethal than mostly everything in the manga. That said, it isn't the tool but the one using it that determines strength.


I agree with that, but I think possessing such a tool(and he is pretty good with it) puts him above people who don't have anything on that level.



> Onoki is old with physical issues that directly effect his combat ability. That's a problem, and Mifune noticed that much when selecting who would be leader.


Mifune would never pick Onoki beause of his past interractions with Akatsuki. Also Mifune isn't an authority on power levels. How can he know how powerful each kage is. It was a political decision more than anything.


----------



## FlamingRain (May 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Tsunade overall(including her value as a support for her team) is definitely on the same level with the other two sannin, but in pure combat potential and versatility, she falls short, imo.



She's treated as their peer in the context of combat potential.

Statements like Ebisu's _"Against one of the Sannin, Orochimaru, another one of those Sannin is required"_ and _"Are the only ones who can fight against the three Sannin the Sannin themselves"_ in the databook indicate that their _battle power_ is on the same level because they're talking about combat.

So does the fanbook's statement that Tsunade is "every bit a match for Jiraiya and Orochimaru", because it was the justification for her being the _strongest_ kunoichi.

Such claims don't make any sense if any one of them is supposed to be seen as a weaker fighter than the others, and being the medic is no excuse for it _(1)_


----------



## StarWanderer (May 14, 2015)

> I am pretty sure Tsunade, A or Mei or Gaara alone would be able to stop that meteor



Tsunade? Ei? Mei? 

*ARE YOU SURE?*


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Tsunade? Ei? Mei?
> 
> *ARE YOU SURE?*



I was being sarcastic.



FlamingRain said:


> She's treated as their peer in the context of combat potential.
> 
> Statements like Ebisu's _"Against one of the Sannin, Orochimaru, another one of those Sannin is required"_ and _"Are the only ones who can fight against the three Sannin the Sannin themselves"_ in the databook indicate that their _battle power_ is on the same level because they're talking about combat.
> 
> ...



I know they are all grouped up together, but it looks pretty funny especially in part one where Tsunade was alot weaker and didn't have much showing.

I still think the sannin thing is a group reputation more than anything. They aren't t he sannin because they are invidiually equally strong, but because they are strong as a team.


----------



## StarWanderer (May 14, 2015)

> I was being sarcastic.



Sorry - didnt understand your sarcasm.


----------



## FlamingRain (May 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I know they are all grouped up together, but it looks pretty funny especially in part one where Tsunade was alot weaker and didn't have much showing.
> 
> I still think the sannin thing is a group reputation more than anything. They aren't t he sannin because they are invidiually equally strong, but because they are strong as a team.



Each of those remarks I just pointed out highlight their strength on an individual basis, it's just that their power is identical. They're not saying "when combined they're strong", they're saying this is a group of "three individually strong people".


----------



## Kai (May 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Since when does strength of will correlate to overall strength? J-man would be Top Tier for willing himself back to life.


Since Onoki's will allowed him to bring forth his full power. Are you going to deny that? 

The manga has shown a strong will allows for extraordinary things. J-man even willed himself back from the brink of death. Then I will ask you: How is J-man willing himself to life correlated to Onoki's performance with Stone Will?



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> *Onoki didn't actually push Madara any further than the others. He got steamrolled right along with the rest of them.* The only time he "shined" was when faced with Madara's *lesser techniques. * I don't know what's up with that EMS Sasuke-Kakuzu thing, but that reminds me of an analogy I used earlier that you ignored.
> 
> If a team consisting of Preta Path, Kakuzu, and Sasori are fighting BM Naruto, then Preta Path can have his few minutes of fame by countering Rasenshuriken or Odama Rasengan, _which the other two have no answer to_, yet we all agree that Preta Path is the weaker of the two.
> 
> You can't look at how Onoki faired against certain techniques to determine how well he did against Madara as a whole. For that you'd have to look at the result of the fight, and it was Onoki getting _stomped_ just as badly as all the others.


That's like saying all bijuu are on the same level of power because BM Naruto was thrashing them all. I'm sure you see the problem with that reasoning.

Onoki fought past an infusion of abilities thrown out by Madara. Rinnegan, Mokuton, Susanoo. This is hardly a match up based issue; Onoki was clear cut the strongest of the Gokage to be able to defeat a variety of obstacles the other four could not on repeated occasions.

Again, this is not the same as a Kage possessing better match up odds than Onoki against another character. Not at all. Using Like's Boss example, A or Tsunade will do better than Onoki against an opponent like Gai, but that doesn't at all take away the fact that Onoki is the strongest among them.

And like I keep saying, a fight against Madara is a true testament to someone's level. Actually *defeating* Madara is totally beyond my point which has already crossed, and is completely unnecessary when discussing Gokage power levels relative to each other.




			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure Madara told us that his combat _experience_ was beginning to show itself.


Now, this isn't to say the other Kage don't have much combat experience.

But the fact Madara says this only puts Onoki on a higher standing. 



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> The Gokage losing to Perfect Susano'o is not an example of match up being irrelevant.
> 
> None of them had a jutsu to counter it.


It was you who stated the Gokage have a unique collection of abilities and they were not ants.

Here's some logic for you.
Match-ups matter because of unique collection of abilities.
When unique collection of abilities fail to matter, match-ups fail to matter.

We already know Onoki can deal with Susanoo and Tsunade can shatter its ribcages. Complete Susanoo *is* Susanoo on a gargantuan scale. The Kages' combination of abilities can do nothing to the sheer scale of the same technique.

Enter DBZ.




			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> I'm putting words in your mouth? Well do I have to tell you that "having a shining moment" is synonymous with being "singled out among the others?"


None of them compared to Onoki's. Rocky, you were equating this:


To this:


madara: damn you ohnoki...\\
madara: you’re finally starting to show how experienced in battle you are.\\
madara: you were able to stop susano-o with the added weight rock technique... and you were then able to help the raikage...\\

Tsunade as the "only one" deflecting fire balls is equivalent to Onoki being the "only one" singled out by Madara.


I know for a fact your reading comprehension isn't that sub par.


madara: *the main problem here is ohnoki,* just as I thought...\\
madara: my only choice is to break his spirit.\\



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> ck
> 
> Kai.
> 
> ...


Onoki didn't do any better than the other Kage against *Complete Susanoo.* If you're going to use something ridiculous like Complete Susanoo as a measure, then yes Onoki is the same level as the other four Kage because the difference in power is so massive that individual differences and match-ups between them are irrelevant. 

If we bring the scale down, like I've said multiple times, Onoki gets singled out repeatedly.



			
				Likes Boss said:
			
		

> Madara outright stated that because Tsuande was a female medical Senju, that he was going to put forth extra effort to ensure that she was the first to die, and even after making such statement,
> 
> *And before you pin that solely on Tsuande being the medic*, you have to realize that she also acts as a chakra booster and fights directly on the front lines just like the other kage.


Madara clarified his statement saying it's because Tsunade is the granddaughter of Hashirama that he will strike her down. Ironically you argue Onoki is highlighted simply because of his past with Madara, yet fail to acknowledge that Madara outright states he targets Tsunade because of her lineage to Hashirama.

Yet every other time Onoki is praised by Madara, it is combat related in which Madara sees value and nothing about their shared history,


----------



## FlamingRain (May 14, 2015)

When have unique collections of abilities ever failed to matter?

"Unique collections of abilities" encompasses all abilities one has, including the scale one is able to operate on.


----------



## Kai (May 14, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> When have unique collections of abilities ever failed to matter?
> 
> "Unique collections of abilities" encompasses all abilities one has, including the scale one is able to operate on.


Scale can make match-ups irrelevant.


----------



## Rocky (May 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Also techniques that can trap or disable her. Simply running around and kiting her is also very effective. She has no remarkable speed, and she has no ranged techniques.



Running around and what?



> Even if he did, they are very rare. He is most of the time pretty vague about power levels.



If he wants to make it known that somebody is the strongest/stronger, I find that he usually tells us, even when it should be _obvious. _



> I am pretty sure Tsunade, A or Mei or Gaara alone would be able to stop that meteor



Onoki didn't stop it alone. 



> Muu would defeat rest of the kage too. So would troll kage.
> Gaara only defeated him with the help of Onoki and his dad's gold sand.



They're the same level, so it depends on the conditions of the thread.

Those two get ran the fuck over by A depending on knowledge, and Tsunade can beat Gengetsu by using her slug to find him.



> Definitely.
> But for a guy who can fly and is mostly a ranged fighter, physical restrictions aren't  that big of a deal.



He's not mostly a ranged fighter. 

At least not from what we've seen. Onoki can't spam Dust Release, and once that runs out close combat becomes his best option. That nearly got him killed against Nindaime Mizukage.



> I agree with that, but I think possessing such a tool(and he is pretty good with it) puts him above people who don't have anything on that level.



Offensively? Sure. I'd argue that spammable, _legendary_ speed is close, but I'll give Jinton the benefit of the doubt. 

Defensivley? Not even close. Onoki faces a problem when he goes up against anyone with a quick offense, especially in scenarios with full knowledge. Jinton wouldn't stop him from being paneled by Raikage-fight Sasuke's Amaterasu. 

If Onoki goes up against speedsters like Gai, A, or Minato _or_ pretty much anyone with fast seal-less techniques like MS wielders, Hebi Sasuke, Mifune...he's going to face a lot of problems. 



> Also Mifune isn't an authority on power levels. How can he know how powerful each kage is. It was a political decision more than anything.



I was speaking more from a literal perspective. Kishimoto can grant Mifune knowledge on whatever he wants, and if he _wanted_ Onoki to be the most powerful, then in my opinion he would have said so right then and there.

Instead, Mifune told us that Onoki had problems_ directly related to combat._, and he was the _only one_ with such issues.


----------



## DavyChan (May 14, 2015)

Ohnoki dissasembles him. 

Ohnoki low diff.


----------



## Rocky (May 14, 2015)

Kai said:


> Scale can make match-ups irrelevant.



Obito says hi.

Sasuke blocking the planetary-ranged Mugen Tsukuyomi likewise says hello.


----------



## FlamingRain (May 14, 2015)

Kai said:


> Scale can make match-ups irrelevant.



I don't see why the ability to operate on a larger scale wouldn't simply be another thing that affects matchup by purview of being part of a ninja's unique collection of abilities.

Deidara being able to deal with Katon: Endan but not Katon: Gamayu Endan is not an example of matchup just being made irrelevant, even though the only difference between the two is the scale. 

Kakashi being unable to deal with something like summoning Katsuyu simply because the slug is too big, is not an example of matchup just being made irrelevant.

Etc.


----------



## Rocky (May 14, 2015)

Kai said:


> Since Onoki's will allowed him to bring forth his full power. Are you going to deny that?



I won't deny that his performed improved after the Stone Will chapter. Though if we want to take that route, it isn't going to matter much in battle.

By the time Jiraiya's willpower made itslef known, Pain had already won the fight. Onoki's willpower didn't show itself against Mu or Gengetsu either, and even against Madara, he would have been killed once asleep had the Uchiha been serious. 



> Onoki fought past an infusion of abilities thrown out by Madara. Rinnegan, Mokuton, Susanoo. This is hardly a match up based issue; Onoki was clear cut the strongest of the Gokage to be able to defeat a variety of obstacles the other four could not on repeated occasions.



Variety? Onoki was able to get past things that the others could not, but those techniques were not diverse in purpose. They all share one thing; scale. They were all gargantuan, not particularlly fast techniques that were suuceptible to Onoki's weight manipulation or Jinton.

I don't get it man. You stick Obito in there, and he'd fail to counter those techniques all the same, but i doubt you'd but Onoki above him.



> But the fact Madara says this only puts Onoki on a higher standing.



Experience-wise.



> Here's some logic for you.
> Match-ups matter because of unique collection of abilities.
> When unique collection of abilities fail to matter, match-ups fail to matter.



Madara's Susano'o is something that none of those five could cope with. This doesn't mean that all similiar tiered Shinobi will be helpless against it. 



> None of them compared to Onoki's...
> 
> madara: damn you ohnoki...\\
> madara: you?re finally starting to show how experienced in battle you are.\\
> ...



Haven't I already admitted that Onoki was the most experienced? Are you saying that experience and strength are one & the same?



> Onoki didn't do any better than the other Kage against *Complete Susanoo.* If you're going to use something ridiculous like Complete Susanoo as a measure, then yes Onoki is the same level as the other four Kage because the difference in power is so massive that individual differences and match-ups between them are irrelevant.



Perfect Susano'o and Madara_ are not seperate entities._ So what you've done is essentially admit that Onoki did no better against Madara then anyone else.

There are certain techniques he was able to counter that the others didn't do as well against, but I don't see how that puts Onoki above the others anymore than it puts Preta Path above Animal Path for casually stopping Rasenshuriken.


----------



## Kai (May 14, 2015)

FlamingRain said:
			
		

> I don't see why the ability to operate on a larger scale wouldn't simply be another thing that affects matchup by purview of being part of a ninja's unique collection of abilities.
> 
> Deidara being able to deal with Katon: Endan but not Katon: Gamayu Endan is not an example of matchup just being made irrelevant, even though the only difference between the two is the scale.
> 
> Kakashi being unable to deal with something like summoning Katsuyu simply because the slug is too big, is not an example of matchup just being made irrelevant.


Complete Susanoo vs. Gokage is a perfect example of match-ups being irrelevant. 

Name a single shinobi among them or their tier that can defeat Complete Susanoo, despite having an array of skill sets for different situations. Match-up in this case is a futile discussion when the magnitude of technique can't be matched.

There are hundreds of abilities that all serve different functions that will do nothing against Complete Susanoo or Bijuu Mode. 

Pit 1,000 genin vs. a Hokage separately in different trials. Explain how match-up can possibly still be relevant here.




Rocky said:


> I won't deny that his performed improved after the Stone Will chapter. Though if we want to take that route, it isn't going to matter much in battle.
> 
> By the time Jiraiya's willpower made itslef known, Pain had already won the fight. Onoki's willpower didn't show itself against Mu or Gengetsu either, and even against Madara, he would have been killed once asleep had the Uchiha been serious.


>Onoki possesses the strongest will
>Onoki performs at his best
>Madara notes Onoki's will. Notes his combat experience. Notes he is the main problem out of the Gokage

The events are all connected man. It's obvious Onoki is the pinnacle of the Gokage by Madara's observation.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Variety? Onoki was able to get past things that the others could not, but those techniques were not diverse in purpose. They all share one thing; scale. They were all gargantuan, not particularlly fast techniques that were suuceptible to Onoki's weight manipulation or Jinton.
> 
> I don't get it man. You stick Obito in there, and he'd fail to counter those techniques all the same, but i doubt you'd but Onoki above him.


You're still arguing Onoki was "tailor made" to fight Madara despite the fact Madara used Rinnegan, Mokuton, and Susanoo and Onoki was either the only one or the major player in fighting past them all.

There's really nothing to be said if you're blind to what that kind of logic entails for just about any other fight in the manga.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Experience-wise.


Onoki's combat experience allowed him to combat in a more experienced manner than the other four Kage.

When I put it like that, do you even know what that means? 

Onoki outperformed them.




			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Madara's Susano'o is something that none of those five could cope with. This doesn't mean that all similiar tiered Shinobi will be helpless against it.


For those five, who all possess their own unique skill sets, *those unique skill sets were completely irrelevant against Complete Susanoo.*

If one power denies everyone's skill sets, how is that not a complete diminishing of match-up importance?



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Haven't I already admitted that Onoki was the most experienced? Are you saying that experience and strength are one & the same?


Isn't that blatantly obvious.

Are you saying Onoki's strength wasn't actively shaped by his combat experience?




			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Perfect Susano'o and Madara_ are not seperate entities._ So what you've done is essentially admit that Onoki did no better against Madara then anyone else.
> 
> There are certain techniques he was able to counter that the others didn't do as well against, but I don't see how that puts Onoki above the others anymore than it puts Preta Path above Animal Path for casually stopping Rasenshuriken.


Again, your logic falls flat on its face when you consider the bijuu are *not* all the same in strength just because BM Naruto trashed them the same.

Same shit applies to Complete Susanoo vs. Gokage. They were all pasted the same, but we know for a fact Onoki is a cut above the rest based on the *previous stages* of the same fight.


----------



## Kai (May 14, 2015)

Also, I've lost where any of your arguments can be applied to Hebi Sasuke, who should be the main focus of this thread.

You keep talking about Madara, which actually only further enhances the point Hebi Sasuke can't even compare to Onoki's level.


----------



## Rocky (May 14, 2015)

I don't think Hebi Sasuke is as strong as Onoki in general.

That said, Sasuke happens to be one of those characters with access to fast, seal-less techniques. Raiton techniques at that.


----------



## StickaStick (May 14, 2015)

Sasuke takes a Jinton to the face no diff.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Running around and what?


wear her down ?



> If he wants to make it known that somebody is the strongest/stronger, I find that he usually tells us, even when it should be _obvious. _


Contextually, Obito had lost his relevance as a villain @ that point and Madara needed the hype. And since they were both JJ's, maybe Kishimoto thought he had to make a distinction.

Gokage were barely introduced, singling out one of them without any proper introduction wasn't necessary @ that point. 



> Onoki didn't stop it alone.


He stopped the first one, and he needed Gaara's help for the second one.
You made it sound like Onoki getting destroyed there made him look bad compared to other Kage. Which certainly is not the case considering the rest wouldn't be able to even deal with 1. Look @ their reactions when they first see the meteor.




> They're the same level, so it depends on the conditions of the thread.


In identical conditions, I don't see them doing any better against them, especially Mu.
Hell, if you value Kishimoto's statements so much, then you can't neglect that Onoki was singled out when Muu was introduced. 



> Those two get ran the fuck over by A depending on knowledge, and Tsunade can beat Gengetsu by using her slug to find him.


As a person who favors A as a character, I really can't say that A'd run either of them over. I actually think Shinobi who are highly deceptive are pretty bad match ups against A, due to his lack of versatility and utility tools.

I am not saying that match ups don't matter, but from a neutral standpoint, with all the tools Onoki has, he seems to be a stronger shinobi than A.



> He's not mostly a ranged fighter.


His main offensive measure is ranged, and he can fly. He is a shinobi who has great mobilty and can strike from range. 
I consider him a ranged fighter.



> At least not from what we've seen. Onoki can't spam Dust Release, and once that runs out close combat becomes his best option. That nearly got him killed against Nindaime Mizukage.


His back nearly got him killed.
He used weight manipulation to destroy the clam, he could have used Dust release and play it safe but for some reason he didn't. Those IC misplays don't determine the strength of a shinobi in my book.





> Offensively? Sure. I'd argue that spammable, _legendary_ speed is close, but I'll give Jinton the benefit of the doubt.


Spammable legendary speed isn't close as A is restricted to Taijutsu. 
Jinton is more destructive and more versatile.



> Defensivley? Not even close. Onoki faces a problem when he goes up against anyone with a quick offense, especially in scenarios with full knowledge. Jinton wouldn't stop him from being paneled by Raikage-fight Sasuke's Amaterasu.


I agree that Onoki's defense isn't as powerful as A, but then there aren't many character who are as durable and as fast as A. 
Onoki has high mobility and the luxury of keeping a certain range from his opponent, unlike A. Onoki is more of a glass canon.



> If Onoki goes up against speedsters like Gai, A, or Minato _or_ pretty much anyone with fast seal-less techniques like MS wielders, Hebi Sasuke, Mifune...he's going to face a lot of problems.



Onoki is as fast as Deidara. I don't think Sasuke's or Mifune's speed would pose too much problems unless Onoki for some reason stays in CQC.

Minato is outright stronger.
Gai won't be doing anything unless he starts out in 6 gates and above and they are fairly close.
Probably same goes for A. But then like I said, match ups do matter.



> I was speaking more from a literal perspective. Kishimoto can grant Mifune knowledge on whatever he wants, and if he _wanted_ Onoki to be the most powerful, then in my opinion he would have said so right then and there.
> 
> Instead, Mifune told us that Onoki had problems_ directly related to combat._, and he was the _only one_ with such issues.



I agree that Mifune can be granted knowledge, but I disagree that it was a moment that required him to point out the strongest. As we've learned so far, leading doesn't necessarily require someone to be the strongest. It has to be someone who is most suitable for the job.
I may have to go back and re-read it, but I don't think the context of the conversation was picking out the strongest.


----------



## Thunder (May 14, 2015)

I think the scenario where Ōnoki wipes Hebi Sasuke off the map with Jinton is more likely to occur than the scenario where Hebi Sasuke consistently exploits the small window of time it takes for Ōnoki to use Jinton. Or the scenario where Hebi Sasuke consistently evades Jinton.


----------



## Rocky (May 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He stopped the first one, and he needed Gaara's help for the second one.


 
Reread it. The _first_ meteor was stopped by both Gaara and Onoki. The second one shat on that entire division. 



> Hell, if you value Kishimoto's statements so much, then you can't neglect that Onoki was singled out when Muu was introduced.



What, the only Jinton can counter Jinton thing? We both know that this is hyperbole..



> As a person who favors A as a character, I really can't say that A'd run either of them over. I actually think Shinobi who are highly deceptive are pretty bad match ups against A, due to his lack of versatility and utility tools.



I said _depending on knowledge._ If A knows they can be difficult to track down, he won't let them escape. The only way they would manage to get away would be taking advantage of an asinine starting distance. 



> His back nearly got him killed.
> He used weight manipulation to destroy the clam, he could have used Dust release and play it safe but for some reason he didn't. Those IC misplays don't determine the strength of a shinobi in my book.



Again, reread it.

He attempted Dust Release, but was out of chakra from his fight with Mu. That's why I said Jinton isn't spammable. 



> restricted to Taijutsu.



So?

Legendary speed helps one get into close quarters, and it also helps evade attacks if the range is larger.

What good is Jinton if Raikage smashes Onoki's face in with Shunshin from anywhere between 0-20m?



> Onoki has high mobility and the luxury of keeping a certain range from his opponent, unlike A.



The 4th Raikage has limited mobility and an inability to keep a distance? 

What the fuck? Have you gotten these two mixed up?



> Onoki is as fast as Deidara. I don't think Sasuke's or Mifune's speed would pose too much problems unless Onoki for some reason stays in CQC.



Didn't Base Sasuke almost blitz Deidara with just his sword? What if he had used the Curse Seal there? What if he had used Chidori Eiso?



> I may have to go back and re-read it, but I don't think the context of the conversation was picking out the strongest.



I don't think it was either, but you don't think the Onoki being the best wouldn't have at least been _worth mentioning?_


----------



## Mercurial (May 14, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I don't see why the ability to operate on a larger scale wouldn't simply be another thing that affects matchup by purview of being part of a ninja's unique collection of abilities.
> 
> Deidara being able to deal with Katon: Endan but not Katon: Gamayu Endan is not an example of matchup just being made irrelevant, even though the only difference between the two is the scale.
> 
> ...


Katsuyu's body is almost completely made of water. Kakashi casually fries it with Raijuu Tsuiga. If Katsuyu divides itself, it's even more worthless, but it doesn't matter anyway as he can spam Raijuu Tsuiga (it's a Raikiri variant; if he can use five Kamui plus all the Sharingan drain for hours of fighting and a lot of Raikiri, Raikiri variants and use of clones dividing his chakra) all around directing the lightning wolf , or just have a clone launch Raiton (not even Raikiri) infused shuriken. In any case, also, he has the speed to casually dodge his acid all day, as it was evaded easily by Manda, someone easily intercepted by Tsunade of all people, someone definitely not even remotely as fast as Kakashi and also even hindered by carrying a giant sword in the meantime (and not as versatile, with clones, trickery, cleverness etc); I don't think I need to remember that Kakashi dodged Kakuzu's enormous AoE Fuuton pointblank while distracted by fighting Hidan, kept pace with Gated Gai more than once, dodged the Six Tails' enormous acid cloud, counterblitzed V2 jinchuriki, outspeeded Obito and so on. Or Kakashi simply defeats and kills Tsunade as quickly as he can, and he definitely can, and calls it a day.

And that's not only Kakashi (1 MS version), basically even strong and skilled ninja that surpasses the mid/high level of Kage/S Rank level can do this someway. As Kakashi can, Minato can. Itachi can. Obito can. EMS or MS Sasuke can. SM Naruto can. Kabuto can. Gai can. Killer Bee can. Tobirama can. Nagato can. Mu can. The 3rd Raikage can.


----------



## Veracity (May 14, 2015)

@kai
No? I said a reason Onnoki was highlighted was because of his past with Madara, but the more I read it, I see that their background probably played an equal part for both characters. 

Madara claimed to strike Tsuande down because she was a female medical Senju essentially. He had more than one reason, and at the end of the day, Tsuande was the only kage to survive his wrath( even though he directly singled her out to kill first). Before you say, the only reason she survived is because she's more tailored to taking damage, that same logic can be used against you. The only reason Onnoki faired better against 5 Sussano clones is because his aresenal was tailored towards it. The only difference is that Madara was putting forth extra effort( by his words) to kill Tsuande as opposed to the other kage.

I really don't where people get that Onnoki was praised so drastically by Madara. Correct if I'm wrong , but Onnoki was only praised twice for his ability just like Tsuande basically.

He told Onnoki he danced well: [2]

Then said his combat experience in which he stop the Sussano's was a problem: [2]

He des serially did the same for Tsuande also:

Like outright claiming she was weak and useless, then revoking the statement and saying she really wasn't that weak after she leg dropped him through his Sussano: [2]

Then essentially praised her abilities as he placed them on the same level as Hashirama, who he wanked constantly:  [2]

So they both played leadership roles, they both had spotlight, they both had a strong will( stone and fire), they both were directly singled out by Madara, and they both were praised by him. If anything, I would place their  performance on a similar level


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## FlamingRain (May 14, 2015)

Kai said:


> Complete Susanoo vs. Gokage is a perfect example of match-ups being irrelevant.



Not going by what you said, which is:

_"Match-ups matter because of unique collection of abilities.
When unique collection of abilities fail to matter, match-ups fail to matter."​_
But characters' unique collections of abilities have never failed to matter. Whether or not any of the Five Kage could defeat Final Susano'o does not change that as _Final Susano'o *is itself* one part of a unique collection of abilities._

It is no more than _the ability_ of Madara to operate on such a grand scale, and the fact that the collection of abilities possessed by the Five Kage does not include anything able to deal with something on that scale itself _matters_.

Matchup as the way one's unique collection of abilities interacts with another's will always be relevant because that is what combat in the Narutoverse is based on; it does not require that the opposing sides be equal to or even so much as competitive with each other in order to matter. _Strength_ builds upon that concept as the number of different foes/situations one has the abilities necessary to deal with, but it doesn't forgo the concept altogether. Madara's Final Susano'o is far stronger than the Five Kage _because_ the range of abilities and situations he can handle with it is vastly larger, but the _matchup_ is still _not irrelevant_ as scale is just another factor regarding matchups.


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## Rocky (May 14, 2015)

You are Jesus at explaining things. ^


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## Icegaze (May 14, 2015)

kakashi can damage katsuyu despite the author saying otherwise 
Human body is 70% water 
How much water you think is in a slug 
Cuz kakashi raikiri variants couldnt even fry asura which got shit tier durability compared to katsuyu


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Reread it. The _first_ meteor was stopped by both Gaara and Onoki. The second one shat on that entire division.


Regardless, Onoki did most of the heavy lifting. Mei, Tsunade and A were completely useless.
So again, Onoki not being able to stop those meteors alone doesn't make him look bad in comparison to  the rest of the kages.




> What, the only Jinton can counter Jinton thing? We both know that this is hyperbole..


Still, no other kage was singled out like that, hyperbole or not.




> I said _depending on knowledge._ If A knows they can be difficult to track down, he won't let them escape. The only way they would manage to get away would be taking advantage of an asinine starting distance.



Yeah, under favorable circumstances A can likely kill them  before they can get anything off.




> Again, reread it.
> 
> He attempted Dust Release, but was out of chakra from his fight with Mu. That's why I said Jinton isn't spammable.


Ok I didn't know that.
But again, CQC isn't something he chooses to go unless he has to. That was my point anyways.
He probably thought he could go in with weight manipulation and then get out, but his back fucked him over. 




> So?
> 
> Legendary speed helps one get into close quarters, and it also helps evade attacks if the range is larger.
> 
> What good is Jinton if Raikage smashes Onoki's face in with Shunshin from anywhere between 0-20m?


I agree but thats a match up specific. I'm not comparing A's speed to Jinton, I'm assessing them seperately.

Like A is pretty helpless against Susano'o in general, but Onoki has a shot @ destroying it with Jinton. 



> The 4th Raikage has limited mobility and an inability to keep a distance?
> 
> What the fuck? Have you gotten these two mixed up?



I'd say freely flying around is a much greater mobility asset than walking around on foot regardless of how fast you are. But that wasn't my point, I was just saying that Onoki doesn't need a strong defense like A, because his mobility and Jinton allows him to stay away from his opponent and fight just as effectively. 
A needs the durability because he is a strictly CQC figther.



> Didn't Base Sasuke almost blitz Deidara with just his sword? What if he had used the Curse Seal there? What if he had used Chidori Eiso?



If he used CS he actually might have gotten him.
But like I said, he is fine as long as he can keep a distance. And Onoki can just fly away, unlike Deidara who needs to create a bird and hop on it. 



> I don't think it was either, but you don't think the Onoki being the best wouldn't have at least been _worth mentioning?_



I don't think so. Why would Kishimoto need to establish it so early on ? Also contextually it wasn't that relevant. 
I mean, when Tsunade was out of commission after the Pain battle, no one mentioned Naruto's name as the strongest Konoha nin. They just went to Kakashi first as a Hokage candidate.


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## Rocky (May 14, 2015)

I don't understand the logic that is "staying out of range." The further Onoki is from the target, the more difficult it's going to be to connect with Jinton. Unlike Deidara's explosives, Onoki's beams & cubes aren't guided.

I also don't understand why one would consider Onoki "better" than the 3rd or 4th Raikage just because he's more effective at a distance. Hell, I'd say A has _more_ dominance at short than Onoki has at long. 

A's strength & durability allow for him to deal damage without taking much in return, and his speed & reflexes give him the means to preempt or evade techniques that could be problematic. Along with his Biju-tier stamina, he will beat nearly any fighter in close combat.

Onoki has destructive might with Jinton, but he doesn't have the stamina to abuse it nor does he have any jutsu dedicated to ensuring that it connects. Then there's his back, and A doesn't have that unpredictable handicap.


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## UchihaX28 (May 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't understand the logic that is "staying out of range." * The further Onoki is from the target, the more difficult it's going to be to connect with Jinton. *  Unlike Deidara's explosives, * Onoki's beams & cubes aren't guided. *
> 
> .



 Yeah, I made that point at the beginning of this thread yet that won't stop people from claiming, "Jinton GG".


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## Kai (May 14, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Not going by what you said, which is:
> 
> _"Match-ups matter because of unique collection of abilities.
> When unique collection of abilities fail to matter, match-ups fail to matter."​_
> ...


Well, all I can say is that is true. I concede that point.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 15, 2015)

I usually only say match specifics don't matter when there's such a gap in portrayal that some character will never be allowed to lose to another character.  For example, one of the Sannin wouldn't lose to Shino, and Guy or Minato wouldn't lose to Yamato, even though by abilities there are theoretical ways it could happen.  We also have some things where match specific abilities run contrary to the narrative, such as Orochimaru being a good BD match for Minato, but Orochimaru admitting to Hiruzen Minato would wreck him and his plans, and in those cases I favor the narrative.  Overall F/R makes a solid point about matches being ability based.


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## Alex Payne (May 15, 2015)

Imo - if Person A beats Person B but loses to Person C. And Person C can't beat Person B. Yeah, matchups. But if someone simply has a lot of strong abilities which are useful against multiple jutsu. Then that person is simply strong. Which is Onoki's case. Weight-manipulation, flight, Jinton, advanced Doton techs. That makes him strong. Not "a bad matchup" for Madara. 

It's like saying that JJ Madara owned Narutoverse with one genjutsu because of a favorable matchup. And not because of a broken top tier ability.

Onoki had shined too much and was too relevant in Gokage's fight for it to be a simple match up issue. Only Tsunade came close with her support abilities.


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## Veracity (May 15, 2015)

Tryna figure out why nobody seems to notice that Onnoki didn't " shine " at all when the kage were going up against Madara himself. He didn't fare any better than the rest of the kage tbh. Matter of fact , they all decided to follow under Tsunade's commands, and create 2 different openings for her to strike. So if onnoki was so magical and above the rest of the kage, he would have easily outperformed the kage against Madara himself. Against the 5 Sussano clones who clearly fought on a level below Madara himself(but still were guarded by Sussano) of course Onoki was going to outplay the kage. He can fly and stop their movements with one blow. Honestly give any kage the ability to stop a sussanos movement, and they would have all fared just as good as Onnoki, some much better actually. That technique really isnt even that special...think of all the opponents it would actually dominate? It just happens to be very effective against Sussano.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't understand the logic that is "staying out of range." The further Onoki is from the target, the more difficult it's going to be to connect with Jinton. Unlike Deidara's explosives, Onoki's beams & cubes aren't guided.
> 
> I also don't understand why one would consider Onoki "better" than the 3rd or 4th Raikage just because he's more effective at a distance. Hell, I'd say A has _more_ dominance at short than Onoki has at long.
> 
> ...



By staying out of range, I didn't mean staying out of his own effective range. 
I also used it as an example to point out his versatility more than anything. Also the whole "glass canon" thing works for him because of his high mobility and the capability of engaging from a distance.


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## Alex Payne (May 15, 2015)

Combo with Gaara and with Team Attack on Madara
Main man behind stopping the first meteor
Offensive Combo with A
Defensive Combo with Gaara
Will of Stone vs Kajukai Kōrin 	
Stopped his Susano clones and simultaneously saved Raikage
Main man behind wiping out Susano clones

Multiple flashbacks, Madara's recognition, was rallying other Kages the whole fight. He was blatantly portrayed as the MVP of the fight. Is he on another Tier compared to fellow Kages? No. But he is stronger imo. Not by much but still stronger.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 15, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Combo with Gaara and with Team Attack on Madara
> Main man behind stopping the first meteor
> Offensive Combo with A
> Defensive Combo with Gaara
> ...



Exactly my thoughts.

Whenever Kages did something significant, Onoki was the lead.


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## FlamingRain (May 15, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> For example, one of the Sannin wouldn't lose to Shino, and Guy or Minato wouldn't lose to Yamato, even though by abilities there are theoretical ways it could happen.



Which ways are those?



> We also have some things where match specific abilities run contrary to the narrative, such as Orochimaru being a good BD match for Minato, but Orochimaru admitting to Hiruzen Minato would wreck him and his plans.



Orochimaru never said anything along those lines.

_Hiruzen_ implies something different, too.


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## LostSelf (May 15, 2015)

It takes a simple touch for Shino to kill Jiraiya. Independently on the difficulty of landing said touch. I guess that's what PoW means.


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## Sadgoob (May 15, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> We also have some things where match specific abilities run contrary to the narrative, such as Orochimaru being a good BD match for Minato, but Orochimaru admitting to Hiruzen Minato would wreck him and his plans, and in those cases I favor the narrative.  Overall F/R makes a solid point about matches being ability based.



IIRC, Hiruzen implied Minato would die taking Orochimaru down, and Orochimaru only showed true fear/respect in the face of the suicide jutsu that Minato (and Hiruzen) possessed.

I'm not saying Minato couldn't comfortably beat Orochimaru, but there was no narrative directly supporting that as far as I'm aware.​


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## Trojan (May 15, 2015)

They wanted Minato to defeat him, not to die with him. lol


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 15, 2015)

There's a line where Hiruzen tells Orochimaru he never would have dared to attack while the 4th was in power, and Orochimaru says something like, "That's true, but he's not here right now."  At least I recall that, but I'm not sure when it was said.

You also get stuff like .  Kind of sprinkled around.

Also, Tsunade  and nothing bad happened.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2015)

I must say, I don't think such a statement exist. Chances are, I would have known it.


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## FlamingRain (May 15, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> There's a line where Hiruzen tells Orochimaru he never would have dared to attack while the 4th was in power, and Orochimaru says something like, "That's true, but he's not here right now."  At least I recall that, but I'm not sure when it was said.



I don't think that even _was_ said...

Idk if you might be vaguely remembering when Orochimaru said he warned Hiruzen that he better hurry up and pick a _Fifth_ Hokage _(1)_.



> You also get stuff like .  Kind of sprinkled around.



That implies something a little different than that Minato would outright beat Orochimaru were he still alive.

You could take Hiruzen's "don't say that...he has already died" as him telling Anko that they couldn't ask him to give up his life to stop Orochimaru after he had already done so stopping the Kyūbi, especially in hindsight considering that it was Minato's sacrificial seal that stopped Orochimaru's invasion.

I mean when you think about it they were both considered once in a decade geniuses, both were candidates for Fourth Hokage, both took and further advanced Tobirama's techniques. Hiruzen said the only reason he decided to choose Minato for Hokage because Orochimaru was so twisted, and apparently a lot of people thought that was a mistake (you can question why that was, but still it's there).

Orochimaru being a good match for Minato isn't something that necessarily runs contrary to the narrative.

I'm pretty sure match specifics matter here like they would anywhere else.



> Also, Tsunade  and nothing bad happened.



That was the first sign Orochimaru would turn into a psycho. .


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## Icegaze (May 16, 2015)

@flamming I've always thought oro vs minato was a good match up 
Though minato will run Orochimaru down till Orochimaru runs out of steam . However it's not so easy either Orochimaru got 1 shot techniques as well as things like Edo tensei that aren't easy to deal with 

@everyone considering onoki is a flying opponent isn't he a perfect victim for kirin set up ? 
Onoki won't notice as quickly as ground opponents that sasuke is trying to set up a jutsu 

This might be less one sided than we think

Actually at normal starting distance snake hands would be quicker to execute than Jinton . Sasuke could have a 10-15m snake appear in front of onoki by simply punching . Am sure sasuke can throw a punch qhicker than onoki can use Jinton . So perhaps an off the bat Jinton isn't as likely . And sasuke can fly 

I am getting you more now strat . Though onoki should still win .


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## Empathy (May 30, 2015)

Regarding Onoki's status as the strongest of the five Kage: while I don't contest it, I wouldn't say it should be based wholly on Onoki doing the best against Madara. I don't think Onoki is a lot stronger than A for example, and in fact I think A could beat him in a fight [] (the other three I consider to struggle to breach into middle-of-the-pack Kage level). I consider it similar to Edo Itachi taking the lead with Naruto and Bee against Edo Nagato, and then with EMS Sasuke against Kabuto. It's more a testament to experience and aptitude than it is to outright '_powa-levelz_' the BD gets itself so worked up over. I don't think most would use Itachi's competency as sole evidence for his dominant superiority over everyone else involved in Edo Itachi's fights (if they did, I think they'd at least supplement it with other evidence), as everyone in those battles were pretty much around the same level.


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## Legend777 (May 30, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> That implies something a little different than that Minato would outright beat Orochimaru were he still alive.



Not necessarily.



FlamingRain said:


> You could take Hiruzen's "don't say that...he has already died" as him telling Anko that they couldn't ask him to give up his life to stop Orochimaru after he had already done so stopping the Kyūbi, especially in hindsight considering that it was Minato's sacrificial seal that stopped Orochimaru's invasion.



That statement followed after his admission of inferiority to Orochimaru . So basically someone weaker than Minato defeated Orochimaru using his jutsu.

That statement can also mean that Minato could have  beaten Orochimaru but it would be too much to ask of him considering what he has already done for the village . ( He didn't sacrifice himself to save the village but to save the world from the masked man . He soloed the guy who tried to attack Konoha.)

And you act as if there is no other material in the manga to compare them . By portrayal , feats and hype Minato is comfortably above Orochimaru . Only way Orochimaru can Tie with Minato is if we just go by "Feats only" argument  and we already know that he has a stronger offensive tech up his sleeve (not shown on panel ) in addition to uzumaki fuin jutsu.




FlamingRain said:


> I mean when you think about it they were both considered once in a decade geniuses, both were candidates for Fourth Hokage, both took and further advanced Tobirama's techniques. Hiruzen said the only reason he decided to choose Minato for Hokage because Orochimaru was so twisted, and apparently a lot of people thought that was a mistake (you can question why that was, but still it's there).



Means jack considering what they managed to accomplish in battle . 

And since when exactly is strength a sole criterion to electing the Hokage ?


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## FlamingRain (May 30, 2015)

Legend777 said:


> That statement can also mean that...



Which is why I said one _could_ take Hiruzen's statement the way I pointed out earlier. I didn't say that was the one and only way it could be interpreted. If you actually read my post you'd have seen that I only pointed that out to show that there's nothing _necessarily_ running contrary to the narrative if Orochimaru happens to be a good match for Minato.



> By portrayal , feats and hype Minato is comfortably above Orochimaru.



Compare them by portrayal/hype if you want to. By that, they were _both_ once in a decade geniuses, _both_ capable of taking and furthering Tobirama's techniques, and _both_ candidates for the Fourth Hokage, with Minato only being preferred over Orochimaru due to Orochimaru's twisted ways of thinking. That does _not_ suggest that specific abilities would be rendered irrelevant in a fight between the two.

You already admit that by shown abilities Orochimaru can force a tie (I'd say he could even potentially win with the invisible paralytic blood vapors deal), so neither do they suggest that.

The fact that you're reverting to relying on unseen and *made up* abilities we have virtually no data on in order to support Minato is even more evidence that's fairly telling about how they _really_ stack up _feat_ wise, because that isn't something you would even feel the need to do if Minato was actually "comfortably above" Orochimaru in regards to _feats_, and on top of that it isn't like the Ninjutsu specialist who spent his panel time in the manga either playing around or handicapped or both wouldn't also have abilities we have yet to see. Everybody can play that card.

It isn't like knowing Fūinjutsu equates to having a Fūinjutsu to deal with any kind of situation Minato might face anyway. It's not synonymous with being able to defeat Orochimaru without sacrificing one's life as _Hiruzen_ was supposed to have known well over a thousand techniques and all of the Jutsu in Konoha yet he was forced to resort to that specific sealing technique that required he sacrifice his life. Sealing techniques are designed for very specific purposes.

And if by "stronger offensive tech" you mean Rasen Senkō Chō Rinbukō Sanshiki- that's nothing more than Minato throwing multiple Kunai and then teleporting behind his opponent to strike them according to the databook. He doesn't hit _harder_ with it, and it's not going to get him past the hurdles he faces with fighting Orochimaru. Getting behind him is inconsequential.



> Since when exactly is strength a sole criterion to electing the Hokage ?



Spectacular strawman.


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