# List All Kage in order of strength



## Phoenix Zoro (May 31, 2014)

Obviously, don't include those we know nothing about. Also, as they were alive, so no BM for Minato as an example.

1) Hashirama Senju (strongest hokage)

2) Minato Namikaze
3) Tobirama Senju

4) Hiruzen Sarutobi
5) Sandaime Raikage (strongest Raikage)
6) Muu (strongest Tsuchikage)
7) Nidaime Mizukage (strongest Mizukage) 
8) Onoki
>> Danzo Shimura
9) Yagura

10) Ei
11) Tsunade
12) Gaara (strongest Kazekage)
13) Sandaime Kazekage

14) Mei Terumi
15) Yondaime Kazekage

Gaps indicate a gap in strength between each respective group of kage. Its insane how stacked the hokages have been comparative to the other kage, especially considering the other villages respective strongest kage are supposedly all on the list...


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## ARGUS (May 31, 2014)

1. Hashirama 
2. Minato 
3. Tobirama 
4. Muu 
5. Second Mizukage
6. Third Raikage 
7. Onoki 
8. A 
9. Gaara
10. Tsunade
11. Hiruzen 
12. Mei
13. Fourth Kazekage


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## Turrin (May 31, 2014)

1) Hiruzen (if hype holds)
2) Hashirama
3) Minato
4) Tobirama
5) Onoki/Tsunade/Sandaime-Raikage/Yagura
6) Gaara
7) Mu/Nindaime Mizukage
8) Ei
9) Mei
10) Yondaime-Kazekage


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## Cognitios (May 31, 2014)

Hiruzen (Hype)
Hashirama Senju
Minato/Tobirama
Hiruzen (Prime) / Raikagenaut
Muu / Trollkage
Onoki 
Tsunade / Gaara
E / Danzo / Yagura
Sandaime Kazekage / Mei Terumi 
Yondaime Kazekage


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## Phoenix Zoro (May 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> 1) Hiruzen (if hype holds)
> 2) Hashirama
> 3) Minato
> 4) Tobirama
> ...



I can't see that part 1 hype ever holding seeing as Kishi has seemingly readdressed the boundaries of power several times over since that statement was made. Hiruzen conceivably could show feats rivalling Minato and Tobirama in the upcoming chapters, but I see no chance of him showing anything close to Shodai. He's the descendant of Rikudo's son...

You massively underrate Muu and NM imo, who are respectively the strongest kage ever in their respective villages going by hype. Gaara only managed a win against NM due to his father's gold dust in his sand. 

As for Tsunade and Yagura being on the same level as the guy who could match the Hachibi, has the strongest body in NV and fought 10,000 shinobi on his own for 3 days, I can't see that at all. Granted, I may have underestimated Yagura in my placement, but I'd be very surprised if he was above Gaara, let alone Ei.

I'm also interested in how you've ranked the Gokage, its obvious to everyone that Onoki is the strongest and Mei the weakest, but I'm surprised you have Tsunade and Gaara above Ei, when Ei had a superior showing against Madara's clones and was hyped as the strongest of the Gokage going into the war.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 31, 2014)

00. Monkey Sage Mode Hiruzen 
0. Hype Hiruzen
1. Hashirama 
2. Minato (with BM)
3. Sandaime Raikage
4. Mu 
5. Yagura 
6. Tobirama
7. Minato (Base)
8. Second Mizukage
9. A 
10. Geezer Hiruzen
11. Tsunade
12. Danzo (substitute)
13. Sandaime Kazekage
14. Gaara
15. Yondaime Kazekage
16. Mei


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## Trojan (May 31, 2014)

1- BM Minato (he surpassed Hiruzen with BM, in my mind)
2- Hiruzen (hailed as the strongest Hokage in history)
3- Hashirama
4- alive Minato (might change depending on his hyped jutsu)
5- Third Raikage. 
6- Mu/2nd Mizukage
7- Tobirama/ A/ Onoki. 
8- Gaara, Tsunade, and Mei.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 31, 2014)

It's cute that people still take an irrelevant part 1 statement into consideration and act as if Kishi's going to go out of his way to actually justify it. 

1. Hashirama
2. Minato
3. Tobirama
4. 3rd Raikage
5. Mu/2nd Mizukage
6. Onoki
7. Yagura
8. Gaara
9. Tsunade
10. Hiruzen
11. Ei
12. 4th Kazekage
13. Mei


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## Trojan (May 31, 2014)

It's cute that people still do not take  relevant part 1 statement into consideration and act as if Kishi's going to go out of his way to actually justify it. After Kishi justified several others, like the 8th gate, Sharinga-Byakugan, Shukaku and the priest...etc


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 31, 2014)

1) Hashirama Senju
2) Minato Namikaze
3) Tobirama Senju / Tsunade
4) Muu / Nidaime Mizukage
5) Onoki
6) Gaara
7) Sandaime Raikage
8) Ei
9) Yagura (?)
10) Mei Terumi
11) Sandaime Kazekage
12) Yondaime Kazekage
13) Hiruzen Sarutobi (old)

I wish the Shodaime/Nidaime Raikage, Shodaime/Nidaime Kazekage, Shodaime/Sandaime Mizukage and Shodaime Tsuchikage would be elaborated on a bit more, though.​​


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 31, 2014)

Hussain said:


> It's cute that people still do not take  relevant part 1 statement into consideration and act as if Kishi's going to go out of his way to actually justify it. After Kishi justified several others, like the 8th gate, Sharinga-Byakugan, Shukaku and the priest...etc



That's nice. Come back when Kishi actually justifies said hype.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> 1) Hashirama Senju
> 2) Minato Namikaze
> 3) Tobirama Senju / Tsunade
> 4) Muu / Nidaime Mizukage
> ...



Tsunade higher than Onoki, Mu and the 3rd Raikage? On what planet?


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## Trojan (May 31, 2014)

He did when Hiruzen fodderized Hashirama with a freaking clone.


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## Cognitios (May 31, 2014)

> 1- BM Minato (he surpassed Hiruzen with BM, in my mind)
> 2- Hiruzen (hailed as the strongest Hokage in history)





> Obviously, don't include those we know nothing about. Also, as they were alive, so no BM for Minato as an example.



10characters


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 31, 2014)

Hussain said:


> He did when Hiruzen fodderized Hashirama with a freaking clone.



You mean a Hashirama that was brought back with nowhere near his full power. What a great feat for Hiruzen. Congrats man!  When Hiruzen manages to display something that's anywhere close to the level of Shinsuusenju then you might have something resembling an argument.


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## Trojan (May 31, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> 10characters



I know. 
that's why I put "living Minato" again. I just wanted to throw him there.  
Well, at least until his stupid jutsu come to play. 


> You mean a Hashirama that was brought back with nowhere near his full power. What a great feat for Hiruzen. Congrats man!


Hashirama's fanboys double standards as usually. huh, what a surprise..


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## trance (May 31, 2014)

1. Rokudaime Hokage Nardo/Sauce
1. Hashirama Senju

_-Gap-_

2. Minato Namikaze
3. Tobirama Senju

_-Gap-_

4. Raikagenaut/Muu/Onoki/Trollkage
5. Tsunade/Ei/Gaara/Mei/Yagura (?)
6. Danzo
7. Sandaime Kazekage
8. Yondaime Kazekage/Old Hiruzen


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 31, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I know.
> that's why I put "living Minato" again. I just wanted to throw him there.
> Well, at least until his stupid jutsu come to play.
> 
> Hashirama's fanboys double standards as usually. huh, what a surprise..



>Calls me a Hashirama fanboy  when I'm not even a fan of his ()
>Says I use double standards (you sit here and belligerently go on about how Hiruzen's strongest hokage statement can't be denied in any way yet you try your hardest to deny other factual statements. Should I bring up the Itachi is invincible statement? ) Yet I'm the one with the double standards. 

Like I've said, when Hiruzen shows anything close to the level of Shinsuusenju then you might have something resembling an argument.


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## Trojan (May 31, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> >Calls me a Hashirama fanboy ()
> >Says I use double standards (you sit here and belligerently go on about how Hiruzen's strongest hokage statement can't be denied in any way yet you try your hardest to deny other factual statements. Should I bring up the Itachi is invincible statement? ) Yet I'm the one with the double standards.
> 
> Like I've said, when Hiruzen shows anything close to the level of Shinsuusenju then you might have something resembling an argument.



> Stating Hashirama is no where near full power.
> Ignoring Hiruzen was also no where near full power & fighting 3 at the same time.

[١][٢][٣][٤][٥][٦]

oh, and konohamaru is stronger than Hagoromo's brother because the latter has not shown anything yet. 
what a lame way of judgement, simply based on ignorance of the other character's ability, so it does not exist even if the author said it does.


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## Turrin (May 31, 2014)

Phoenix Zoro said:


> I can't see that part 1 hype ever holding seeing as Kishi has seemingly readdressed the boundaries of power several times over since that statement was made.


This is what I thought too, until 8th-Gate Gai demonstrated that Part I statements can indeed hold true despite power-inflation. 8th-Gate Gai was indeed still stronger than the Hokages, despite Hashirama's rise in strength. It didn't matter that Gai was not linked to Rikudo or had some hax Bloodline, Kishi didn't care. 

So given that I still think there is a decent chance of Hiruzen's hype turning out to be true. With that said it may very well be that it's the product of 1 time only type Jutsu like 8th-Gate, and Hashirama is more consistently stronger than Hiruzen



> You massively underrate Muu and NM imo, who are respectively the strongest kage ever in their respective villages going by hype. Gaara only managed a win against NM due to his father's gold dust in his sand.


Gaara has been able to draw out minerals from the earth since P1. It may have taken him some-what longer if the Gold-Dust wasn't just lying around, but he would have still won. Mu is around Nindaime-Mizukage's "level", that was made apparent by Kishi noting how they both killed each other in the past. So Gaara is a slight step up from both of them from what I could see. And given superior performance from Tsunade/Onoki against Madara, those 2 are a slight step up from Gaara.

Nindaime-Mizukage is not stronger than Yagura imo. Yagura's Mirror technique is ungodly hax, so is a V2 where all it needs to do is touch you to encase you in coral that even KCM-Naruto can't break free of, and of course he has full Bijuu Form w/ Bijuu Bomb. And that is simply the small feats we got to actually see from Yagura. By portrayal Yagura was one of the only perfect Jins in history and that already puts him a step above Nindaime-Mizukage. 

With that I said I'd rather simply put them all on the same general "level" and call it a day as the gaps are minimal, but the OP said to rank them, so I did.



> As for Tsunade and Yagura being on the same level as the guy who could match the Hachibi, has the strongest body in NV and fought 10,000 shinobi on his own for 3 days, I can't see that at all. Granted, I may have underestimated Yagura in my placement, but I'd be very surprised if he was above Gaara, let alone Ei.


See above what I said about Yagura.



> I'm also interested in how you've ranked the Gokage, its obvious to everyone that Onoki is the strongest and Mei the weakest, but I'm surprised you have Tsunade and Gaara above Ei, when Ei had a superior showing against Madara's clones and was hyped as the strongest of the Gokage going into the war.


Tsunade had a much better showing against Madara. Ei and Gaara's showing against Madara were negligible, but Gaara has had a much better showing in the war defeating 2 Kages, one of which I'd say is stronger than Ei, while Ei was used consistently as simply a hype device, most egregiously for Base-B. By feats he's even worse off as the most limited of the any Kage we've seen in terms of arsenal. And he was never hyped as the strongest Gokage.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 31, 2014)

Hussain said:


> > Stating Hashirama is no where near full power.
> > Ignoring Hiruzen was also no where near full power & fighting 3 at the same time.
> 
> [١][٢][٣][٤][٥][٦]



So you don't want to go into the Itachi is invincible statement?  I figured because you know you're being called out on your own hypocritical tenancies and you have the gall to try and call others out on theirs (no matter how wrong you are). 

And please point me to a post where I flat out ignored Hiruzen not being at full power? I never claimed that. What I've claimed is that Hiruzen has done nothing to backup the statement of him being the strongest Hokage. Hashirama has feats that blow Hiruzen along with any Hokage out of the water. When you can prove that Hiruzen's full power is supposedly greater than Hashirama's then your "He fodderized Hashirama with a clone" statement might have a little merit. If not then the only thing its good for is a nice laugh, which it gave me, so be proud of yourself for that. 

So once again, bring me a feat of Hiruzen's that matches up to Hashirama's shinsuusenju? If you can't then this debate is over. 

Have a nice day!


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## Trojan (May 31, 2014)

I did not go to itachi's hype because simply it's irrelevant, you just trying to distract the debates with stuff that has nothing to do with it.  

Hiruzen has the raper death seal, it's a 1 shot jutsu.  

anyway, I can't debate with you since you apparently think you know more than kishi in his manga. oh well, 
you can tell yourself that you know better than kishi. 


> Have a nice day!


you too my dear, you too. U_U


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 31, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I did not go to itachi's hype because simply it's irrelevant, you just trying to distracting the debates with stuff that has nothing to do with it.
> 
> Hiruzen has the raped death seal, it's a 1 shot jutsu.
> 
> ...





> So once again, bring me a feat of Hiruzen's that matches up to Hashirama's shinsuusenju?



So you can't? I thought so. 

And it's only irrelevant to you because you know you're being called out for your own hypocritical ways. Don't call others hypocrites when you yourself are one. It's embarrassing.


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## trance (May 31, 2014)

Hussain said:


> anyway, I can't debate with you since you apparently think you know more than kishi in his manga. oh well,
> you can tell yourself that you know better than kishi.



Kishi doesn't even know what he's doing half the time.


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## Trojan (May 31, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> So you can't? I thought so.
> 
> And it's only irrelevant to you because you know you're being called out for your own hypocritical ways. Don't call others hypocrites when you yourself are one. It's embarrassing.



pfff
apparently we have to go in circles. 

[3]

- and since you seem so in love with itachi's hype, yes there is nothing against that hype either. Whether you like it or not, it's how it is. 

The only way around it, is either by sound or light as shown in Kabuto's fight because the susanoo itself will vanish. And that's weakness in the susanoo itself, not in the mirror or the sword. 

is not he a better shinobi than Hashirama after all?


> Kishi doesn't even know what he's doing half the time.


I can agree with that. 
though what happened, happened, we can do nothing about it. U_U


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## Legendary Itachi (May 31, 2014)

Divine Kage
0. Fanfic Prime Hiruzen

- Super large gap - 

Legend Kage
1. Hashirama

Top Kage
2. Tobirama ~ Minato

Kage
3. Fanfic Old Hiruzen
4. Raikagenaut / Mu / Trollkage
5. Onoki / Danzo
6. Ay / Tsunade

Low Kage
7. Gaara / Mei
8. Old Hiruzen
9. 4th Kazekage


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 31, 2014)

Hussain said:


> pfff
> apparently we have to go in circle.
> 
> [3]
> ...



So a jutsu that requires you to first restrain your opponent and then sacrifice your life is as great as a enormous statue with 1000 hands capable of completely destroying a PS while simultaneously creating an enormous valley AND allowing you to live? You are quite the funny guy. 

Oh and so you admit the Yata Mirror can't be broken by any means and that Itachi's invincible when using susanoo in conjunction with both the yata mirror and totsuka sword?  That's not what you've been saying in Itachi threads for years.  Don't backpedal because you can't take the heat when it comes to being called out on your own hypocritical tenancies.

You see I don't buy into any of these hyperbolic statements, but if you're going to vehemently crucify anybody who denies Hiruzen's then you'd have to do the same when it comes to Itachi otherwise your bias and hypocritical traits are showing.

Anyway, I'm done.


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## Hasan (May 31, 2014)

Hussain said:


> 1- BM Minato (he surpassed Hiruzen with BM, in my mind)
> 2- Hiruzen (hailed as the strongest Hokage in history)
> 3- Hashirama
> 4- alive Minato (might change depending on his hyped jutsu)
> ...



Uh, how is Minato stronger than Hiruzen, since 'by manga', the latter is the strongest in history? There's no substance -in any form- that implies Minato (with Bijū Modō) is stronger than Hiruzen.


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## Trojan (May 31, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> So a jutsu that requires you to first restrain your opponent and then sacrifice your life is as great as a enormous statue with 1000 hands capable of completely destroying a PS while simultaneously creating an enormous valley? You are quite the funny guy.
> 
> Oh and so you admit the Yata Mirror can't be broken by any means anhd that Itachi's invincible when susanoo in conjunction with both the yata mirror and totsuka sword?  That's not what you've been saying in Itachi threads for years.  Don't backpedal because you can't take the heat when it comes to being called out on your own hypocritical tenancies.



Gai's 8th gates also requires him to die, does that make it any weaker? As a matter of fact Kakashi stated the stronger the jutsu is, the greater the sacrifice would be. 

- and about destroying another jutsu, you're funny really, as the raper death negates ALL jutsus. 

Link removed
Link removed

even kishi put it out flat


> For those who've seen this shape, no technique exists to allow them to escape the Realm of the Dead~~





- lol, you seem too lacking in reading comprehension  aren't you? 
yes, there is nothing against the weapons hype. But, the susanoo, who holds them is a different story.
because he simply can be vanished via sound and light as we saw in Kabuto's fight. The same thing with the Gedu-damas for example, it needs to much fire power with SM to be destroyed, but that does not mean it cannot be teleported away. 

- oh by the way, since you did not reply about konohamaru and the sage's brother, I assume you agree that Konohamaru is stronger based on feats?  

anyway, I'm so done with this so called debate. Yeah, I prefer to stuck with Kishi rather than what readers say. Thank you.


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## Trojan (May 31, 2014)

Hasan said:


> Uh, how is Minato stronger than Hiruzen, since 'by manga', the latter is the strongest in history? There's no substance -in any form- that implies Minato (with Bijū Modō) is stronger than Hiruzen.



1- That's the point of "he surpassed Hiruzen with BM, in my mind"
as Hiruzen's hype does not include BM who came latter after Minato's death. 
Though, that does not mean Minato with BM is stronger than Prime Hiruzen indeed, and that's why
I stated it's only in my mind. So, yeah there is nothing to proof that BM Minato is stronger than Prime Hiruzen.


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## Hasan (May 31, 2014)

Hussain said:


> 1- That's the point of "he surpassed Hiruzen with BM, in my mind"
> as Hiruzen's hype does not include BM who came latter after Minato's death.
> Though, that does not mean Minato with BM is stronger than Prime Hiruzen indeed, and that's why
> I stated it's only in my mind. So, yeah there is nothing to proof that BM Minato is stronger than Prime Hiruzen.



I read that, but asked only because you consistently mention that your arguments are backed by Kishimoto's manga.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 31, 2014)

BM Minato is still slightly below BM Naruto who's around base Hashirama's level and SM Hashirama is stronger than that


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## Phoenix Zoro (May 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> This is what I thought too, until 8th-Gate Gai demonstrated that Part I statements can indeed hold true despite power-inflation. 8th-Gate Gai was indeed still stronger than the Hokages, despite Hashirama's rise in strength. It didn't matter that Gai was not linked to Rikudo or had some hax Bloodline, Kishi didn't care.
> 
> So given that I still think there is a decent chance of Hiruzen's hype turning out to be true. With that said it may very well be that it's the product of 1 time only type Jutsu like 8th-Gate, and Hashirama is more consistently stronger than Hiruzen



Yes, but Hiruzen GoS title has seemingly been retconned to Hashirama unfortunately, whereas the gates have consistently throughout part 2 been hyped too. 



> Gaara has been able to draw out minerals from the earth since P1. It may have taken him some-what longer if the Gold-Dust wasn't just lying around, but he would have still won. Mu is around Nindaime-Mizukage's "level", that was made apparent by Kishi noting how they both killed each other in the past. So Gaara is a slight step up from both of them from what I could see. And given superior performance from Tsunade/Onoki against Madara, those 2 are a slight step up from Gaara.



I disagree about the Nidaime Mizukage thing. NM gave Gaara's unit full knowledge on his genjutsu and Onoki provided Gaara with full knowledge on NM's jokey boi tech. Gaara's use of the gold was exceptional to be fair to him, but I don't think without that knowledge from Onoki that Gaara would have been able to exact that strategy before the NM killed him. 

Onoki's performance was clearly the best out of the kage. I'm not convinced Tsunade performed any better than Gaara against Madara at all to be honest. Byakugou allowed her to showcase some exceptional healing, but Madara's Susano'o was taking chunks out of her at a time and she was in serious trouble to the point where she was collapsing whereas Gaara was adequately defending himself before he had to save Mei. Similarly, Ei was holding off the Susano'o far better than Tsunade until he got distracted by her deteriorating condition. I think you are just trying to justify putting Tsunade on the same level as Jiraiya and Orochimaru, who imo are both above her akin to how Sasuke and Naruto are above Sakura. 



> Nindaime-Mizukage is not stronger than Yagura imo. Yagura's Mirror technique is ungodly hax, so is a V2 where all it needs to do is touch you to encase you in coral that even KCM-Naruto can't break free of, and of course he has full Bijuu Form w/ Bijuu Bomb. And that is simply the small feats we got to actually see from Yagura. By portrayal Yagura was one of the only perfect Jins in history and that already puts him a step above Nindaime-Mizukage.



I have already decided that I did rank Yagura too low. To my knowledge, the only perfect jins are Yagura, Bee, Minato and Naruto (and Obito and Madara if you count them). That alone and hi being the leader of the jins makes me realise I underestimated him. That said, I'm not convinced he could best NM, who was Muu's equal. It would be extreme diff either way from where I'm sitting, but I think the NM would best him.




> Tsunade had a much better showing against Madara. Ei and Gaara's showing against Madara were negligible, but Gaara has had a much better showing in the war defeating 2 Kages, one of which I'd say is stronger than Ei, while Ei was used consistently as simply a hype device, most egregiously for Base-B. By feats he's even worse off as the most limited of the any Kage we've seen in terms of arsenal. And he was never hyped as the strongest Gokage.



Against Madara's Susano'o, aside from Onoki who actually beat his 5, Ei and Gaara were the only ones successfully fighting off all of the 5 without damage. Mei got smashed and needed Gaara's assistance whilst Tsunade had blades sticking out of her all over the place. To be honest, based on the war, I could see an argument for Gaara > Ei, but not at all for Tsunade > Ei tbh. Ei was hyped as the strongest gokage by being selected as the General leader. You can argue it was only due to having no ties to akatsuki, but strength would have come into it and Shikaku comments one the importance of the general taking to the field.


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## Cognitios (May 31, 2014)

Prime Hiruzen (Hype by Kishi) > Hashirama(Hype by kishi and feats) >= BM Minato (feats and hype)
BM Minato was never called a god of shinobi, Hashirama was. 
Kishimoto has spoken


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## Phoenix Zoro (May 31, 2014)

Oh god, I'd love to see this 'prime Hiruzen' I really would  but I think to much has happened to hype Hashi for there to be any chance that Hiruzen will be stronger than him at this stage


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 31, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Tsunade higher than Onoki, Mu and the 3rd Raikage? On what planet?



Planet canon, you should pay a visit some time 




















On a serious note, I don't think there is much between any of them, but for the sake of not having about five different people in the same bracket on the tier list, I tried to use my judgement to estimate roughly where they should be placed.

Muu is a bit over-rated. He can't, or at least has never ICly stayed invisible while using attacks, nor has he went invisible at the start of any battle we saw him participate in. He also can't spam jinton given it's huge chakra consumption. For that reason I think Tsunade can eventually defeat him. Onoki's situation is the same as Muu's but he has worse stamina and can't go invisible. All of his doton are ineffective on Tsunade as well. The Third Raikage has incredible durability but his actual offensive power is below Tsunade's, and he's not so fast that he could outright blitz her either. 

Besides anything else, she was the most impressive Kage in the fight against Madara - she was one of the few Kage he praised at an individual level, she was the only one to remain alive after he mangled all of them with perfect Susano'o, and as a Hokage and descendant of Hashirama it should only stand to reason that her hype is above the aforementioned Tsuchikage and Raikage.​​


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## Turrin (May 31, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> So once again, bring me a feat of Hiruzen's that matches up to Hashirama's shinsuusenju?


You do realize that for nearly 400 chapters, one could have asked "Bring me a feat of Hashirama's that matches up to Shiki-Fuujin" and you would not be able to do so. We only got Hashirama's good feats when Kishi started showing us glimpses of Hashirama at his best. So being unable to produce a "feat" that matches Shin-Suusenju, does not mean Hashirama > Hiruzen. Anymore than someone being unable to produce a "feat" of Hashirama that matches Shiki Fuujin for the first nigh 400 chapters of the manga doesn't mean Hashirama was inferior to Hiruzen. 

As much as people hate to admit it we've only ever seen a handicapped Hiruzen. And thee only thing we have to go on are those statements that Hiruzen is the strongest.


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## LostSelf (May 31, 2014)

Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama
Mu
Hiruzen
Oonoki
Tsunae
Gaara
Ei
Mei

When Hiruzen shows the hype given to him by someone that didn't even met Hashirama or saw him in direct combat, i will change it. Until now this hype, for me, is as amazing as Katsuyu saying that 7th Gated Gai, 6th gated Lee, Tenten, Neji would be killed by a near dead Deva Path.

In other words: A living being just talking without knowing.


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## Turrin (May 31, 2014)

Phoenix Zoro said:


> Yes, but Hiruzen GoS title has seemingly been retconned to Hashirama unfortunately,


I personally translated the line and I assure you the GoS title can apply to more than one individual. 



> whereas the gates have consistently throughout part 2 been hyped too.


Hiruzen has been consistently hyped as well. Just no where near the level of being the strongest Hokage since those statements were made. The same is true of the Gates. They were hyped, but nowhere near making Gai stronger than the Hokage.



> I disagree about the Nidaime Mizukage thing. NM gave Gaara's unit full knowledge on his genjutsu and Onoki provided Gaara with full knowledge on NM's jokey boi tech. Gaara's use of the gold was exceptional to be fair to him, but I don't think without that knowledge from Onoki that Gaara would have been able to exact that strategy before the NM killed him.


Maybe or maybe Gaara would have figured it out on his own. I personally see Garaa fighting a harder battle, but still winning out in the end. As I don't think someone as smart as Gaara is unable to figure these things out on his own.



> Onoki's performance was clearly the best out of the kage. I'm not convinced Tsunade performed any better than Gaara against Madara at all to be honest. Byakugou allowed her to showcase some exceptional healing, but Madara's Susano'o was taking chunks out of her at a time and she was in serious trouble to the point where she was collapsing whereas Gaara was adequately defending himself before he had to save Mei


Tsunade is the one that consistently saved the Gokage. Tsunade healed Onoki/Gaara or otherwise they wouldn't even be in the battle. Tsunade was the driving force in the only moments of the battle where the Gokage pressured Madara (right before the clones and when she combo'd with Onoki against the clones). Than she saved the lives of the Gokage at the end. And Tsunade wasn't even at her best their as she didn't have much time to store chakra in her Byakugo-Seal after using it all up in the Pain-Arc and only awakening after the Kages Arc from her coma.



> ei. Similarly, Ei was holding off the Susano'o far better than Tsunade until he got distracted by her deteriorating condition.


So he was doing better than Tsunade, until he wasn't....in which case Tsunade did better. Ei honestly added next to nothing in the Madara battle.



> n. I think you are just trying to justify putting Tsunade on the same level as Jiraiya and Orochimaru, who imo are both above her akin to how Sasuke and Naruto are above Sakura.


I put Jiriaya, Orochimaru, Ei, Gaara, Onoki, Tsunade, etc.... all on the same "level". I think Tsunade is stronger within that "level" than Ei/Gaara/Mei, while I think Jiriaya/Orochimaru are stronger than her. again we are talking about small margins, but it really has nothing to do with what you said.



> I have already decided that I did rank Yagura too low. To my knowledge, the only perfect jins are Yagura, Bee, Minato and Naruto (and Obito and Madara if you count them). That alone and hi being the leader of the jins makes me realise I underestimated him. That said, I'm not convinced he could best NM, who was Muu's equal. It would be extreme diff either way from where I'm sitting, but I think the NM would best him.


I don't have a problem with extreme diff. But he would beat Nindaime-Mizukage. V2 or Bijuu-Form tanks every Mizukage can throw at him. Sanbi breaks him out of the Genjutsu and if not he just nukes the whole area with Bijuu Bomb. Mizukage is left a pile of mush like Suigetsu was and Yagura seals him with Coral. GG. 



> Against Madara's Susano'o, aside from Onoki who actually beat his 5, Ei and Gaara were the only ones successfully fighting off all of the 5 without damage. Mei got smashed and needed Gaara's assistance whilst Tsunade had blades sticking out of her all over the place. To be honest, based on the war, I could see an argument for Gaara > Ei, but not at all for Tsunade > Ei tbh.


Mei was defeat, Gaara was defeated, and Ei was defeated. The two who were not defeated was Tsunade and Onoki. They were also the biggest players in that fight, and have the most hype among the Gokage. 

Saying Ei did better because Tsunade was injured, doesn't make sense because her Jutsu regenerated her, her whole gimick is she can take those hits an regenerate. Ei on the other hand got distracted (mistake) and was defeated having to be saved by Onoki.



> i was hyped as the strongest gokage by being selected as the General leader. Y


Had absolutely nothing to do with strength.



> ou can argue it was only due to having no ties to akatsuki, but strength would have come into it and Shikaku comments one the importance of the general taking to the field.


Shikaku comments on the importance of the general not taking the field. And It literally did have nothing to do with strength and Ei's portrayal is the absolute worst among the Gokage second only the Mei. He was used as Base-B hype material, that's really low.


----------



## trance (May 31, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> The Third Raikage has incredible durability but *his actual offensive power is below Tsunade's*, and he's not so fast that he could outright blitz her either.​​



Yea right.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 31, 2014)

It's kind of interesting to see the disparity between each village. Suna in particular is so weak that you can see why the Sand-Sound invasion happened


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 31, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Muu is a bit over-rated. He can't, or at least has never ICly stayed invisible while using attacks, nor has he went invisible at the start of any battle we saw him participate in. He also can't spam jinton given it's huge chakra consumption. For that reason I think Tsunade can eventually defeat him. Onoki's situation is the same as Muu's but he has worse stamina and can't go invisible. All of his doton are ineffective on Tsunade as well. The Third Raikage has incredible durability but his actual offensive power is below Tsunade's, and he's not so fast that he could outright blitz her either.



And how can she beat Onoki and Mu? All you're doing is stating it. She has no way of getting to them seeing as both can fly. She has no long range jutsu. And both have jinton that spans an extremely wide area. 

And there's no way the 3rds offensive power is below Tsunade. His nukite would cut her into tiny little pieces. 



> Besides anything else, she was the most impressive Kage in the fight against Madara - she was one of the few Kage he praised at an individual level, she was the only one to remain alive after he mangled all of them with perfect Susano'o, and as a Hokage and descendant of Hashirama it should only stand to reason that her hype is above the aforementioned Tsuchikage and Raikage.[/indent][/justify]



No she wasn't, Onoki was. He was the only one who managed to actually defeat all 5 of his susanoo clones. A feat which Madara praised him for and then went on to say that it's Onoki who's the main problem out of all of them. He's also the one who managed to stop one of the meteors and was the only kage to awaken from the pollen of the flower world through sheer willpower and destroyed it which allowed the other kages to wake up. He was easily the most impressive kage in that fight. 

Your bias towards Tsunade is clearly showing in this post.


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## Bonly (May 31, 2014)

1) Hashirama Senju
2+3) Minato/Tobi
4) Muu
5) French Dude
6) Onoki
7) Sandaime Raikage
8) Gaara
9) Tsunade
10+11) Mei+A
12) Yondaime Kazekage
13) Hiruzen Sarutobi (old)


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## Kyu (May 31, 2014)

_
0.) Naruto Uzumaki (coming soon so prepare your anuses)
1.) Hashirama Senju
2.) Minato Namikaze
3.) Tobirama Senju
4.) Sandaime Raikage
5.) Mu~Nidaime Mizukage
6.) Onoki
7.) Ei
8.) Yagura
9.) Tsunade 
10.) Gaara
11.) Hiruzen Sarutobi
12.) Mei Terumi
_


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 31, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Yea right.



I'm confused. You find the notion of Tsunade having a greater offence than the Sandaime _laughable_? That's pretty absurd, given that Tsunade possesses significantly greater physical strength than him, has the ability to paralyse foes by scrambling their nervous systems, can actually physically _disable_ their internal organs by using chakra scalpels, knock them out with medical chakra, as well as summon massive unkillable slugs with rock melting acid sprays. 

All the Sandaime has is high physical strength which is inferior to Tsunade's, and the Nukite - which while certainly impressive in power, is only about as threatening as her super strength. Tsunade on the other hand has other alternative offensive options, making her offence more diverse and applicable to taking on a wider variety of opponents.



The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> And how can she beat Onoki and Mu? All you're doing is stating it. She has no way of getting to them seeing as both can fly. She has no long range jutsu. And both have jinton that spans an extremely wide area.



If being able to fly were a stipulation to be greater than Tsunade, then I guess Sai is also above her, or Konan, or Butterfly Chouji. Sure the Tsuchikage can fly, but staying airborne throughout the entirety of their fight is just simply not going to be possible. You seem to be under the impression that jinton is some kind of super-blitzing machine that allows the caster to hit any opponent. In reality there is nothing to suggest that Tsunade couldn't just dodge jinton blasts. 

I should add, Onoki used only _two_ of those big long-ranged jinton blasts in his fight against Madara (and did so only momentarily) and then couldn't manage to use another without Tsunade chakra-pumping the hell out of him afterwards. So it isn't like he would be able to keep that jinton beam up like some kind of laser and fire it all around the show, following Tsunade's every move, he'll run out of sufficient chakra to even perform jinton if he does that. Beside's draining just about all of his chakra, it isn't IC for him to do, and I could say the exact same for Muu.



> And there's no way the 3rds offensive power is below Tsunade. His nukite would cut her into tiny little pieces.



Although that would never happen, I'll overlook that because it has nothing to do with the point I was making. Nukite can injure her, yes, but that has nothing to do with his general offensive power being greater than hers. Yes, his Nukite is equally as damaging and threatening as her super strength, but Tsunade has a variety of other offensive options she can use on top of that, including Katsuyu, Rashinshou, Chakra Scalpel and Shosen-overload, which _collectively_, give her a more diverse and generally better offence than the Sandaime.



> No she wasn't, Onoki was. He was the only one who managed to actually defeat all 5 of his susanoo clones.



Onoki never defeated his Susano'o clones, he slowed them all down with his doton, and that was it.



> A feat which Madara praised him for and then went on to say that it's Onoki who's the main problem out of all of them.



Onoki's ability was the best for stalling Madara's offence whilst being able to protect the other Kage. It was no doubt impressive, and it made Onoki stand out amongst the others, but to say it made him the greatest simply isn't true. His actual combat strength was no better than the other Kage, because he ultimately still failed to defeat Madara's jutsu.



> He's also the one who managed to stop one of the meteors



With a lot of help from Gaara.



> and was the only kage to awaken from the pollen of the flower world through sheer willpower



All of the Kage awoke themselves, Onoki just did it first.



> and destroyed it which allowed the other kages to wake up. He was easily the most impressive kage in that fight.



Let's compare Tsunade's achievements in that battle to Onoki's then, shall we?

*Onoki*
→ Helps Gaara block a Yasaka Magatama
→ Devises a successful attack plan in unison with Mei and Ei
→ Helps Ei snap one of V3 Susano'o's ribs
→ Creates a doton golem, which is quickly destroyed
→ Is the only Kage capable of destroying Madara's Flowers.
→ Helps Tsunade break open Madara's Susano'o
→ Saves Ei from Susano'o clones
→ Leads the final assault against all 25 Susano'o clones

*Tsunade*
→ Heals and replenishes Onoki and Gaara's chakra reserves, allowing them to actually fight
→ Heals/chakra pumps Mei Terumi
→ Advises and instructs the other Kage on defensive measures to protect themselves from Madara's mokuton
→ Devises successful attack plan with the other Kage
→ Breaks open Madara's Susano'o with support from the other Kage
→ Is the Kage who comes closest to actually defeating Madara
→ Survives Madara's Susano'o sword and Yasaka Magatama assault and tries to pierce him with his own sword
→ Was the only Kage able to actually land successful blows on the Susano'o clones
→ Chakra pumps Onoki's jinton to be about 100 times it's normal size - effectively allowing him to destroy the Susano'o clones
→ Tries to protect the other four Kage when Madara swings his Perfect Susano'o sword at them
→ Is the only Kage to successfully stop Madara's katon projectiles, protecting her team-mates in  the process.
→ Is the only Kage to survive Madara's second perfect Susano'o assault
→ Heals, revives and chakra boosts the other downed Kage while chopped in half

Onoki did very well, but Tsunade's performance ultimately trumped his.



> Your bias towards Tsunade is clearly showing in this post.



You're pulling that card way too soon. Once you show me that any of your points are actually valid, _then_ I'll think about conceding to this remark.​​


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 31, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> *and the Nukite - which while certainly impressive in power, is only about as threatening as her super strength.*



*L-O-FUCKING-L*

One-Finger Nukite has infinitely greater potency than a Rasenshuriken whose uncondensed explosion is already megaton-level (on account of its Chibaku Tensei crater feat), and even then Rasenshuriken was already a super-condensed technique to begin with. Tsunade's punch is probably kiloton level and her fist has a *much* greater surface area relative to the Nukite. 

Seriously, Tsunade's punch would knock the Raikage back a bit. That's it. Nukite, on the other hand, would slice her head off clean and she isn't doing shit to prevent it.



> Tsunade on the other hand has other alternative offensive options, making her offence more diverse and applicable to taking on a wider variety of opponents.[/indent][/justify]



Doubt it.

The Third's sheer durability is a hurdle that many Kage-level opponents simply fail to overcome. Couple that with his impressive speed and offensive power, and you have a package that is clearly superior to Tsunade's 'diverse' arsenal, or whatever the fuck that means.

Hard to say that her 'diverse' variety of techniques even matter at all considering most of them involve a close-combat approach, which is heavily hampered by her relatively poor speed. 

Also, would love to hear your reasoning as to why Tsunade should be logically placed above Muu, whether it's concerning a match-up between them or in general.


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## Nikushimi (May 31, 2014)

1. Hashirama

2. Minato
3. Tobirama
4. 3rd Raikage/4th Raikage

5. Danzou
6. Muu/2nd Mizukage
7. Oonoki
8. Tsunade
9. Yagura

10. 3rd Kazekage
11. Gaara
12. 4th Kazekage
13. Hiruzen (old)
14. Mei


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 31, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> *L-O-FUCKING-L*
> 
> One-Finger Nukite has infinitely greater potency than a Rasenshuriken whose uncondensed explosion is already megaton-level (on account of its Chibaku Tensei crater feat), and even then Rasenshuriken was already a super-condensed technique to begin with. Tsunade's punch is probably kiloton level and her fist has a *much* greater surface area relative to the Nukite.



I can already tell that this discussion isn't going to be a productive one. A) because you wrote _" *L-O-FUCKING-L* "_ in the opening line of your rebuttal, which is actually supposed to be about _convincing_ me that I'm wrong, rather than coming off as a 12 year old. So  at that.

Secondly, and this is nothing personal, but you're one of those debaters that likes to use power estimations like megatons in discussions. I simply don't think Kishimoto gives a shit for physics, and fail to see the point in using those sort of terms in a discussion over fantasy, make-believe concepts. I also have no way of knowing if your estimations are correct, and so would have to take your word for it, which defeats the point in having a debate. 

However, I will say this: Even if the Sandaime's Nukite _is_ greater than Tsunade's strength in power, it doesn't really matter, because the vast majority of foes are going to die from Tsunade's strength _anyway_. In that case the Sandaime having more offensive power in his Nukite than in her physical blows isn't that beneficial because the foes that he can _realistically_ defeat would already die from taking a blow from Tsunade. That is really all I meant when I said that Nukite and her strength were equally as threatening.



> Seriously, Tsunade's punch would knock the Raikage back a bit. That's it. Nukite, on the other hand, would slice her head off clean and she isn't doing shit to prevent it.



That was never up for debate, and frankly Tsunade/Sandaime Raikage's durability have nothing to do with my initial point in the first place.



> Doubt it.
> 
> The Third's sheer durability is a hurdle that many Kage-level opponents simply fail to overcome. Couple that with his impressive speed and offensive power, and you have a package that is clearly superior



The Third's durability, speed and offensive techniques combined allow him to stand up to a range of opponents. That was never disputed. Nor was Tsunade's durability/resilience/healing jutsu/Byakugou/anything not to do with her offensive jutsu. All I said was that Tsunade's offensive techniques alone were more diverse than the Sandaime Raikage's.



> Tsunade's 'diverse' arsenal, or whatever the fuck that means.



You're either really dumb, or an incompetent troll if you say that you don't know what a diverse arsenal is. 



> Hard to say that her 'diverse' variety of techniques even matter at all considering most of them involve a close-combat approach, which is heavily hampered by her relatively poor speed.



She doesn't have relatively poor speed, unless you're comparing her to top-tier speedsters like KCM Naruto or Minato, who have no relevance at all whatsoever to this debate, in which case yes, her speed is relatively poor. Her ability to take attacks and retaliate while her foes are in a disadvantageous position allow her to circumvent the speed disadvantage, allowing her to stand with foes even as fast as Ei in close combat. 



> Also, would love to hear your reasoning as to why Tsunade should be logically placed above Muu, whether it's concerning a match-up between them or in general.



Then you should probably read what I've already written in an aforementioned post.​​


----------



## Kazekage94 (May 31, 2014)

What the hell is wrong with you people putting Tsunade way above Gaara? He is clearly above her.

Anyway 
Hashirama
Minato/Tobirama

BIG GAP

Muu
3rd Raikage
Gaara/2nd Mizukage
Ohnoki
Tsunade/Ei
3rd Kazekage?
Mei
Hiruzen/4th Kazekage

Gaara is clearly the strongest Kage, and was able to take on the 2nd and win. Ohnoki is the second strongest not far behind of course
The 3rd Kaze is low because we don't know much about him, and Gaara more than likely surpassed him
Hiruzen is old and isn't really that powerful by feats
Honestly i could rank Mei higher than the 3rd but still iffy
It was stated that when Gaara was the jin that the 3rd was the strongest, and i think Part 2 Gaara > Mei so i ranked the 3rd higher.


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## crystalblade13 (May 31, 2014)

1: hashirama ( obviously, dont see how people could even argue this)
2: tobirama
3: minato
4: muu
5: 3rd raikage
6: second mizukage
7: ohnoki / danzo
8: gaara / yagura
9: tsunade / A
10: mei / hiruzen ( fuck baseless hype )
11:4th kazekage


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## Complete_Ownage (May 31, 2014)

1) Hashirama
------Gap-----
2) Tobirama
3) Minato
----- Gap-----
4) Muu
5) Second Mizukage
6) Danzo
7) Onoki
8) Gaara
9) Tsunade
9) 3rd & 4th Raikages
10) Hiruzen


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 31, 2014)

^ Where is mei on your list...if you left her out on purpose then 

Anyway
1. Hashirama 
2. Minato 
3. Tobirama 
4. Muu/Second Mizukage
5. Onoki 
6. Third Raikage
7. A 
8. Gaara
9. Tsunade
10. Hiruzen 
11. Mei
12. Fourth Kazekage


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## Complete_Ownage (May 31, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> ^ Where is mei on your list...if you left her out on purpose then



I only did top 10 no point in placing everyone below that


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## Veracity (May 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> You do realize that for nearly 400 chapters, one could have asked "Bring me a feat of Hashirama's that matches up to Shiki-Fuujin" and you would not be able to do so. We only got Hashirama's good feats when Kishi started showing us glimpses of Hashirama at his best. So being unable to produce a "feat" that matches Shin-Suusenju, does not mean Hashirama > Hiruzen. Anymore than someone being unable to produce a "feat" of Hashirama that matches Shiki Fuujin for the first nigh 400 chapters of the manga doesn't mean Hashirama was inferior to Hiruzen.
> 
> As much as people hate to admit it we've only ever seen a handicapped Hiruzen. And thee only thing we have to go on are those statements that Hiruzen is the strongest.



This would only hold merit if Hirzuen had basically no feats like Hashirama did 400 chapters ago. But that's not the case here at all. Hirzuen actually has feats and they don't even come close to even base Hashirams feats to the even slightest bit. There is no possible way Hirzuens power could inflate to something above sage Hashirama when he already has feats and they aren't impressive at all.

Not to mention that if Hirzuen is as powerful as previously claimed then something would have been said when he was revived right ? Wrong. Absolutely nothing has been said about Hirzuen being superior to any of the Kage actually while the same can't be said about Hashirama. He had reviewed a ridiculous amount of hype since he had been revived:
? Constant flashbacks
? Defeated Madara + Kurama
? Has hype above Madara who could solo the Kage
? FairyTale power level
? Holds off EMS Madara
? Helps lead the Shinobi alliance
? Boosts Sasuke with sage power. 

The character importance and hype difference between the two is ridiculous. There is no possible way Hirzuen maintained any of his hype.


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## ARGUS (May 31, 2014)

Hussain said:


> It's cute that people still do not take  relevant part 1 statement into consideration and act as if Kishi's going to go out of his way to actually justify it. After Kishi justified several others, like the 8th gate, Sharinga-Byakugan, Shukaku and the priest...etc



Its cute that ppl still deny Hashiramas superiority over Hiruzen,, when kishi has literally told us several times that no kage is stronger than Hashirama,,, and called him the GOD OF SHINOBI,,, even when hiruzen was right next to him,,,,,,

its clear that the Part 1 statement is irrelevant,,,,,


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 31, 2014)

But it wasn't Prime Hiruzen


----------



## Kaiser (May 31, 2014)

1) Hashirama
2) Minato
3) Tobirama
4) Muu
5) Second Mizukage
6) Onoki
7) 3rd Raikage
8) Danzo
9) Gaara
10) 4th Raikage


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## Elite Uchiha (May 31, 2014)

1.  Hashirama
1b. Minato



Everyone else


----------



## Lawrence777 (May 31, 2014)

Hashirama

Minato / Tobirama / Muu / 2nd Mizukage
Ei oonoki?
Oonoki / Tsunade / 3rd Raikage
Gaara/ Mei / Gaara's Dad / (Old) Hiruzen


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 31, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Hashirama
> 
> Minato / Tobirama / Muu / 2nd Mizukage
> Ei oonoki?
> ...



You put A above his father who's his superior in every way?


----------



## Bonly (May 31, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> *L-O-FUCKING-L*
> 
> One-Finger Nukite has infinitely greater potency than a Rasenshuriken whose uncondensed explosion is already megaton-level (on account of its Chibaku Tensei crater feat), and even then Rasenshuriken was already a super-condensed technique to begin with. Tsunade's punch is probably kiloton level and her fist has a *much* greater surface area relative to the Nukite.



I can already tell that this discussion isn't going to be a productive one. A) because you wrote _" *L-O-FUCKING-L* "_ in the opening line of your rebuttal, which is actually supposed to be about _convincing_ me that I'm wrong, rather than coming off as a 12 year old. So  at that.

Secondly, and this is nothing personal, but you're one of those debaters that likes to use power estimations like megatons in discussions. I simply don't think Kishimoto gives a shit for physics, and fail to see the point in using those sort of terms in a discussion over fantasy, make-believe concepts. I also have no way of knowing if your estimations are correct, and so would have to take your word for it, which defeats the point in having a debate. 

However, I will say this: Even if the Sandaime's Nukite _is_ greater than Tsunade's strength in power, it doesn't really matter, because the vast majority of foes are going to die from Tsunade's strength _anyway_. In that case the Sandaime having more offensive power in his Nukite than in her physical blows isn't that beneficial because the foes that he can _realistically_ defeat would already die from taking a blow from Tsunade. That is really all I meant when I said that Nukite and her strength were equally as threatening.​​


> Seriously, Tsunade's punch would knock the Raikage back a bit. That's it. Nukite, on the other hand, would slice her head off clean and she isn't doing shit to prevent it.



That was never up for debate, and frankly Tsunade/Sandaime Raikage's durability have nothing to do with my initial point in the first place.​​


> Doubt it.
> 
> The Third's sheer durability is a hurdle that many Kage-level opponents simply fail to overcome. Couple that with his impressive speed and offensive power, and you have a package that is clearly superior



The Third's durability, speed and offensive techniques combined allow him to stand up to a range of opponents. That was never disputed. Nor was Tsunade's durability/resilience/healing jutsu/Byakugou/anything not to do with her offensive jutsu. All I said was that Tsunade's offensive techniques alone were more diverse than the Sandaime Raikage's.​​


> to Tsunade's 'diverse' arsenal, or whatever the fuck that means.




You're either really dumb, or an incompetent troll if you say that you don't know what a diverse arsenal is.​​


> Hard to say that her 'diverse' variety of techniques even matter at all considering most of them involve a close-combat approach, which is heavily hampered by her relatively poor speed.



She doesn't have relatively poor speed, unless you're comparing her to top-tier speedsters like KCM Naruto or Minato, who have no relevance at all whatsoever to this debate, in which case yes, her speed is relatively poor. Her ability to take attacks and retaliate while her foes are in a disadvantageous position allow her to circumvent the speed disadvantage, allowing her to stand with foes even as fast as Ei in close combat.​​


> Also, would love to hear your reasoning as to why Tsunade should be logically placed above Muu, whether it's concerning a match-up between them or in general.




Then you should probably read what I've already written in an aforementioned post.​​


----------



## Nikushimi (May 31, 2014)

The two Raikage are similar.

Both are tanks. Both are physical powerhouses. Both are fast. Both have Bijuu-level chakra/stamina. Both typically use Raiton Nin-Taijutsu to the exclusion of anything else.

The 3rd has better offensive power and durability, while the 4th is much faster.

Honestly, I'd say they're about equal in terms of their general level; they just happen to specialize in different dimensions of what is essentially the same fighting style.

If it came down to a fight between the two...they would probably beat and wear each other down to exhaustion, ending in a draw...just like the 3rd vs. the Hachibi.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 31, 2014)

I don't agree with that, I don't see A as being faster than him due to the Sandaime being able to fight with KCM Naruto who's faster than A. Additionally how would A even hurt him?


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## Complete_Ownage (May 31, 2014)

Pretty much

3rd Raikage is just superior in every way


----------



## trance (Jun 1, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I'm confused. You find the notion of Tsunade having a greater offence than the Sandaime _laughable_? That's pretty absurd, given that Tsunade possesses significantly greater physical strength than him, has the ability to paralyse foes by scrambling their nervous systems, can actually physically _disable_ their internal organs by using chakra scalpels, knock them out with medical chakra, as well as summon massive unkillable slugs with rock melting acid sprays.
> 
> All the Sandaime has is high physical strength which is inferior to Tsunade's, and the Nukite - which while certainly impressive in power, is only about as threatening as her super strength. Tsunade on the other hand has other alternative offensive options, making her offence more diverse and applicable to taking on a wider variety of opponents.​​



Overall, his Nukite grants him a more potent offense, since it's likened to the Chidori/Raikiri in nature but _much_ more powerful in nature, making it one of the most powerful Raiton attacks in the series and Raiton has often been noted to have incredible damage output. 

I somewhat agree with Tsunade's offense being more versatile and diverse, offering more options than Raikagenaut's Nukite but in pure damage, there's no comparison.

As a comparison, Naruto's perfected Rasenshuriken did almost zero damage to Raikagenaut despite the nature advantage. His One-Finger Nukite pierced through his Raiton no Yoroi and his body with ease.


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## Phoenix Zoro (Jun 1, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> The two Raikage are similar.
> 
> Both are tanks. Both are physical powerhouses. Both are fast. Both have Bijuu-level chakra/stamina. Both typically use Raiton Nin-Taijutsu to the exclusion of anything else.
> 
> ...



Sandaime Raikage is hyped to have far better offense and defence than Ei, chakra levels seem similar, but I'd say its seems through the fighting for 3 days feat and matching Hachibi that Sandaime is ahead in that too.

Also, although its always overlooked due to him never using it, he has black lightning so he is also more versatile than Ei.

Pretty much everything points to Sandaime Raikage > Ei.



MusubiKazesaru said:


> I don't agree with that, I don't see A as being faster than him due to the Sandaime being able to fight with KCM Naruto who's faster than A. Additionally how would A even hurt him?



This is the only thing I'd disagree with. The thing that makes Ei special is his V2 speed. I think he and Sandaime are probably comparable in speed when Ei is in V1, I think in V2 Ei is faster. Ei knew his father's speed a explicitly stated Minato is the only shinobi pre-KCM Naruto who was faster than him. Its the only thing he has over the third imo.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 1, 2014)

Bonly said:


> I can already tell that this discussion isn't going to be a productive one. A) because you wrote _" *L-O-FUCKING-L* "_ in the opening line of your rebuttal, which is actually supposed to be about _convincing_ me that I'm wrong, rather than coming off as a 12 year old. So  at that.
> 
> Secondly, and this is nothing personal, but you're one of those debaters that likes to use power estimations like megatons in discussions. I simply don't think Kishimoto gives a shit for physics, and fail to see the point in using those sort of terms in a discussion over fantasy, make-believe concepts. I also have no way of knowing if your estimations are correct, and so would have to take your word for it, which defeats the point in having a debate.
> 
> ...



 

Fuck you Bonly. This confused me so much.



Stαrkiller said:


> Overall, his Nukite grants him a more potent offense, since it's likened to the Chidori/Raikiri in nature but _much_ more powerful in nature, making it one of the most powerful Raiton attacks in the series and Raiton has often been noted to have incredible damage output.
> 
> I somewhat agree with Tsunade's offense being more versatile and diverse, offering more options than Raikagenaut's Nukite but in pure damage, there's no comparison.
> 
> As a comparison, Naruto's perfected Rasenshuriken did almost zero damage to Raikagenaut despite the nature advantage. His One-Finger Nukite pierced through his Raiton no Yoroi and his body with ease.



Fair enough, but even if the Sandaime's Nukite _is_ greater than Tsunade's strength in power, it doesn't really matter, because the vast majority of foes are going to die from Tsunade's strength _anyway_. In that case the Sandaime having more offensive power in his Nukite than in her physical blows isn't that beneficial because the foes that he can _realistically_ defeat would already die from taking a blow from Tsunade. That is really all I meant when I said that Nukite and her strength were equally as threatening.​​


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## Alex Payne (Jun 1, 2014)

*His strength was believed to be a fairy tale Tier*

Hashirama Senju 


*Science and Speed Tier*

Tobirama Senju ~ Minato Namikaze ~ Hiruzen Sarutobi(Prime)


*Awesome in their own way Tier*

Danzo(with Koto)
Onoki(Will of Stone)
Sandaime Raikage ~ Muu ~ Nidaime Mizukage 


*Vague Powerhouses Tier*

Yagura
Sandaime Kazekage


*Next generation always surpasses the old Tier*

Gaara ~ A ~ Tsunade
Mei Terumi ~ Yondaime Kazekage


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## Richard Lionheart (Jun 1, 2014)

1) Hashirama Senju 
2) Minato Namikaze
3) Sandaime Raikage 
4) Tobirama Senju 
5) Muu
6) Onoki
7) Tsunade
8) Nidaime Mizukage 
9) Ei  
10) Yagura?
11) Gaara 
12)Hiruzen Sarutobi
13) Mei Terumi
14) Sandaime Kazekage
15) Fourth Kazekage


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## Kazekage94 (Jun 1, 2014)

Legendary Pervert said:


> 1) Hashirama Senju
> 2) Minato Namikaze
> 3) Sandaime Raikage
> 4) Tobirama Senju
> ...



Why is Tsunade so high?


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## Bonly (Jun 1, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I can already tell that this discussion isn't going to be a productive one. A) because you wrote _" *L-O-FUCKING-L* "_ in the opening line of your rebuttal, which is actually supposed to be about _convincing_ me that I'm wrong, rather than coming off as a 12 year old. So  at that.
> 
> Secondly, and this is nothing personal, but you're one of those debaters that likes to use power estimations like megatons in discussions. I simply don't think Kishimoto gives a shit for physics, and fail to see the point in using those sort of terms in a discussion over fantasy, make-believe concepts. I also have no way of knowing if your estimations are correct, and so would have to take your word for it, which defeats the point in having a debate.
> 
> ...





Fuck you Godaime. This confused me so much.



Stαrkiller said:


> Overall, his Nukite grants him a more potent offense, since it's likened to the Chidori/Raikiri in nature but _much_ more powerful in nature, making it one of the most powerful Raiton attacks in the series and Raiton has often been noted to have incredible damage output.
> 
> I somewhat agree with Tsunade's offense being more versatile and diverse, offering more options than Raikagenaut's Nukite but in pure damage, there's no comparison.
> 
> As a comparison, Naruto's perfected Rasenshuriken did almost zero damage to Raikagenaut despite the nature advantage. His One-Finger Nukite pierced through his Raiton no Yoroi and his body with ease.




Fair enough, but even if the Sandaime's Nukite is greater than Tsunade's strength in power, it doesn't really matter, because the vast majority of foes are going to die from Tsunade's strength anyway. In that case the Sandaime having more offensive power in his Nukite than in her physical blows isn't that beneficial because the foes that he can realistically defeat would already die from taking a blow from Tsunade. That is really all I meant when I said that Nukite and her strength were equally as threatening.​​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 1, 2014)

Bonly has a penis on his forehead.​​


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## Bonly (Jun 1, 2014)

Bonly has a penis on his forehead.​​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 1, 2014)

Bonly copied Godaime Tsunade's set because he wants to be more like Godaime Tsunade, as Godaime Tsunade is in fact superior to Bonly.​​


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## Bonly (Jun 1, 2014)

Ok now you're just going to far ​​


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## Jagger (Jun 1, 2014)

Hussain said:


> He did when Hiruzen fodderized Hashirama with a freaking clone.


Wait, what? When did this happen? Are you talking about the zombie that Hiruzen fought back then? Because if you are, that's just nonsensical.

We all know those zombies didn't even have a quarter of the original strength of the Hokage, not to mention the reason Orochimaru lost is because he started to toy with Hiruzen instead of finishing up his enemy.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 1, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Ok now you're just going to far ​​



Gonna have to try harder Bonly. GG

Godaime - 1 Bonly - 0.​​


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## Danzio (Jun 1, 2014)

*Tier 1*

1) Hashirama Senju

*Tier 2*

2) Hiruzen Sarutobi 
3) Minato Namikaze
4) Tobirama Senju


*Tier 3*

5) Muu
6) Sandaime Raikage 
7) Onoki
8) Gaara
9) Nidaime Mizukage 



10) Tsunade
11) A
12) Sandaime Kazekage


*Bushes*

13) Yagura
14) Yondaime Kazekage
15) Mei


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