# Perfect Susanoo vs Kurama



## Nardo6670 (Feb 18, 2013)

*Scenario 1:* Perfect Susanoo vs 50% Kurama
*
Scenario 2: *Perfect Susanoo vs 100% Kurama

*Scenario 3:* Current  Naruto in his Bijuu form only. Ala the one who who, along with the 8 tails, fought against the Juubi.

Chapter 621 spoilers


*Spoiler*: __ 



Scenario 4: Susanoo combined with the original 100%  9 tailed Kyuubi vs BM Naruto. Though this might be a topic soon




Restrictions: Sharingan control/suppression. Rinnegan

Madara said that his PS is comparable to that of a bijuu. In this case, can he take on the strongest bijuu of them all, in his PS state? This isn't simply Madara vs the kyubbi, but rather if he can beat the 9 tails if he is in gundam/perfect susanoo. obviously madara is alive


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## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 18, 2013)

madara takes all 3 scenarios.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 18, 2013)

Madara with Perfect Susano'o stomps the Kyuubi's roody-poo candy ass. The third scenario would be a decent fight due to Naruto's speed advantage in Bijuu form, but he still doesn't really have any way to breach PS. He'll take a hit eventually and then Madara will go to town on him while he's still reeling from it.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 18, 2013)

Kurama roars in all three scenarios, killing Madara.

Sphere TBB also kills him, as it expands and is created much faster than his Susano can grab the sword/swing.


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## Jak N Blak (Feb 18, 2013)

The Lord Loses scenario 1 and that's being generous. 'Cuz I don't even know how he would even die to begin with. From what BM Naruto took from the Juubz...its fair to claim the mind-feats are 100% usable.

I'm sorry but you can't defeat Lord Kurama with brute force.

As long as the Lord can breathe, all slashes are deflected &/ cushioned significantly by his thunderous roars.
Plus the Lord tails are extremely large in his complete form. His 50% self tails took Juubi's Beam. At full power...haha. Plus lets no forget how ridiculous his regeneration abilities should be by scaling up what KN0 alone allowed a human like Naruto to regenerate. A whole lung.

This is like a Lion attacking a man. Yeah you look taller...but you gonna die son!


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## blk (Feb 19, 2013)

50% and 100% Kurama gets destroyed because of their lack of intelligence, and consequent inability to use effectively their power.

BM Naruto is a different case depending on knowledge and mindset (which are not stated in the OP).
Assuming IC and manga knowledge, he will probably prefers a CQC approach which would proves to be fatal for him (a close range slash would have so much strength that just 1 would probably heavily injures Naruto if not outright puts him down).

In the case of other stipulations (such as full knowledge or bloodlust mindset),  Naruto might try the Bijuudama.
There are few possibilities in this evenience:

- Perfect Susano'o interrupts Naruto with a slash, while the charging process is ongoing. 
The explosion of the Bijuudama togheter with the shockwave of the slash will heavily damage Naruto if not outright kill him.

- Naruto uses the Continous Bijuudama and Perfect Susano'o intercept them mid-air with the shock wave of one or more slashes.

- Naruto successfully charges a very powerful Bijuudama, which gets blocked and redirected with the sword of the Susano'o.

- Naruto successfully hits Perfect Susano'o with a charged Bijuudama or one or more of the Continous Bijuudama.
Perfect Susano'o might be slightly damaged by one of the Continous Bijuudama (seeing how weaker these are than the charged ones), heavily damaged if most of the Continous Bijuudama hit it or completely destroyed if powerful charged Bijuudama hits it.


Considered the above, it's a lot more probable that Perfect Susano'o would counter Naruto's offensive, therefore i give to it the victory more than not, even in the case of full knowledge or bloodlust mindset.




DaVizWiz said:


> Kurama roars in all three scenarios, killing Madara.
> 
> Sphere TBB also kills him, as it expands and is created much faster than his Susano can grab the sword/swing.



I'm pretty sure that Madara starts with Perfect Susano'o, in which case the roars will be nothing more than a little breeze of wind.

Also, the only Bijuudama which can be shot faster than how Perfect Susano'o swings its swords, is the Continous Bijuudama.


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## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Scenario 1)
PS slash > SM FRS which incaps Kurama if it hits him in a soft spot.  PS wrecks 50% Kurama

Scenario 2)
If 100% Kurama was controlled by someone, it would win.  Considering the blocking feats of BM Naruto's avatar, Kurama could just shield itself from PS slashes while it charges one of these sized bijuudamas.  

Considering a PS sword slash is only on par with a normal bijuudama, there's nothing PS can do except hope to tank that kind of firepower.  It can't pop the bijuudama since the dama has far more firepower than the shockwave, and thus it comes down to if PS can tank multi-mountain level attacks which is doubtful.

Scenario 3)
BM Naruto handily wins.

He has an even bigger nuke than 100% Kurama's greatest bijuudama feat, and even that isn't his limit.  
PS has only been shown to emit its powerful slashes one at a time, and not in rapid succession considering gaara and tsunade + ei are able to make handseals and motions before a slash is completed.
Continuous bijuudama would also do good damage to PS, and unless one is going to argue that a PS slash has comparable firepower to the juubi's laserdama, then at best, it pops just one of the continuous bijuudamas while the rest travel forward to hammer PS.

There's also the fact that BM Naruto's cloak tails are strong enough to block the juubi's laserdama, and thus could shield himself from PS swordwaves while he charges a super dama.  And feats from lower susanoos do not suggest PS can tank a super bijuudama.

So in the end, BM Naruto is just far more mobile, has more speed, better durability feats, and has just way more firepower than PS.  The only advantage PS has is its size.  

That's also not including the fact that Naruto can use KCM clones who can spam FRS (which should do good damage within its AoE) while in his BM cloak.


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## Raiken (Feb 19, 2013)

I'm assuming this is Madara as though he had his current level of power *alive*, and not an *Edo-Tensei*:

50% Kyuubi looses I know that much.
100% Kyuubi. I could see that being somewhat even.
50% Kyuubi/Naruto Bijuu Mode. It's kind of hard to say, probably even again.

If it's Edo Madara. Then things change. Madara could quite possibly win in all three scenario's. But I think it's unfair to include the attributes of Edo-Tensei here:

Scenario 1: Madara Wins
Scenario 2: Around Even [Madara has advantage: Due to Intelligence]
Scenario 3: Around Even

What I'm curious though is 100% Kurama VS 50% Kurama/Naruto Bijuu Mode.

A 100% Kyuubi/Naruto Bijuu Mode would stomp Madara.
Basically it's a question of Function and Intelligence VS Raw Power and Size.


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## Nardo6670 (Feb 20, 2013)

Added a new scenario due to  todays chapter.


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## blk (Feb 20, 2013)

Given the new feats for Perfect Susano'o, it pretty much stomps in all scenarios.


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## Stermor (Feb 20, 2013)

blk said:


> Given the new feats for Perfect Susano'o, it pretty much stomps in all scenarios.



why? ps just cut a few more mountain tops.. but then was unable to cut through tree branches that could hold down the kyuubi.. 

and it shown a ranged cut in combination with a bb but that didn't really work.. 

not really seeing why these feats would really change anything in the fight..


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## blk (Feb 20, 2013)

Stermor said:


> why? ps just cut a few more mountain tops.. but then was unable to cut through tree branches that could hold down the kyuubi..
> 
> and it shown a ranged cut in combination with a bb but that didn't really work..
> 
> not really seeing why these feats would really change anything in the fight..



1) Perfect Susano'o has withstood the explosion of a Bijuudama like it was nothing, therefore the only way that Naruto or the Kyuubi has in order to _potentially_ heavily damages it is to charge a very powerful Bijuudama, which requires time that they will not have against the Susano'o.

2) We now know better the extent of Perfect Susano'o offensive capabilities: it can spam mountain level shockwaves simply by swinging its swords.
Such a power can be used not only for greatly damage Naruto or the Kyuubi in a very little time, but also for stop them from charging a Bijuudama (since the attack is a lot more immediate), or for intercept mid-air any incoming Bijuudama that they succesfully charged and launched.

This abilities render almost impossible for Naruto or the Kyuubi to damage Perfect Susano'o, while the opposite is true for the latter.


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## Duality of Man (Feb 20, 2013)

> I'm pretty sure that Madara starts with Perfect Susano'o, in which case the roars will be nothing more than a little breeze of wind.


The roar sent 4 Bijuu flying several thousand meters back, TBBs don't even do this. Madara's bones are shattered and his organs are liquidized, his neck is snapped from the backlash and the chakra surrounding him is blown off casually.



> Also, the only Bijuudama which can be shot faster than how Perfect Susano'o swings its swords, is the Continous Bijuudama.


Which isn't restricted.. Which is also called Sphere TBB.



> This abilities render almost impossible for Naruto or the Kyuubi to damage Perfect Susano'o, while the opposite is true for the latter.






> 1) Perfect Susano'o has withstood the explosion of a Bijuudama like it was nothing,


You mean Kyuubi enhanced with Susano right?


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## Orochimaru800 (Feb 20, 2013)

im getting a davizwiz vibe  here...

Anyway for the 4th scenario, i give it to susanoo armored madara


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## ImSerious (Feb 20, 2013)

PS loses to any Kyuubi form above 50%.


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## blk (Feb 20, 2013)

Duality of Man said:


> The roar sent 4 Bijuu flying several thousand meters back, TBBs don't even do this. Madara's bones are shattered and his organs are liquidized, his neck is snapped from the backlash and the chakra surrounding him is blown off casually.



The roar is weaker than a Bijuudama.



> Which isn't restricted.. Which is also called Sphere TBB.



So? I didn't said that Perfect Susano'o can't counter it, just that it is the only type of Bijuudama that is as fast or slightly faster than a slash.
All the others need a charging time (which increase depending on its power) that can be exploited by Madara for slash Kurama/Naruto.



> You mean Kyuubi enhanced with Susano right?



How do you know that it was enhanced?


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## Duality of Man (Feb 20, 2013)

> The roar is weaker than a Bijuudama.


In destructive power, yes. In force per inch, nope. Normal TBBs wouldn't send Bijuu that far even if they had a direct hit. Which is probably why Kurama roared instead of shooting TBBs.

If the Susano is moved at all, which it will considering 4 bijuu were repelled horribly, Madara's body will be destroyed. 

Most importantly here, Kurama isn't restricted by plot, he can spam this roar indefinitely. If the first fails, he shunshins and spits another in the face of Susano, grabs his blade and swipes directly through Susano, roars again, swipes it with his tails, then blows him away with TBB, in a matter of 10 seconds. 



> So? I didn't said that Perfect Susano'o can't counter it, just that it is the only type of Bijuudama that is as fast or slightly faster than a slash.
> All the others need a charging time (which increase depending on its power) that can be exploited by Madara for slash Kurama/Naruto.


He wouldn't have transferred into Kurama unless he had to. 

The previous agreement throughout the NBD was TBB busts Susanos. You have no evidence suggesting it can't, don't tell me "Doesn't mean it can't tank it" 



> How do you know that it was enhanced?


Because Kurama came out of the TBB in armor smoking. Hashirama was surprised, you can infer from that reaction that he didn't think Madara would survive.


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## Orochimaru800 (Feb 20, 2013)

Duality of Man said:


> You mean Kyuubi enhanced with Susano right?



You're grasping for straws.  You are aware of the line of logic that you are going for , right?



> The previous agreement throughout the NBD was TBB busts Susanos.


A lot of people also say that PS can tank TBB. There is no "previous agreement" . That would imply that everyone agrees on it, which is not true. Not everyone agrees that PS can't tank TBB. Just because you see a few posters agreeing in something in one topic, does in no way mean its a general consensus on the whole forum. If I went with general consensus, then alive Itachi solos the 5 kages, itachi beats madara , orochimaru stomps tsunade 10/10,  minato beats madara easily,  tsunade blitzed madara, orochimaru stomps onooki, Orochimaru beats killerbee more times than not, etc

Why do _you people_ always make excuses or do your best to downplay a newer  feat?


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## blk (Feb 20, 2013)

Duality of Man said:


> In destructive power, yes. In force per inch, nope. Normal TBBs wouldn't send Bijuu that far even if they had a direct hit. Which is probably why Kurama roared instead of shooting TBBs.
> 
> If the Susano is moved at all, which it will considering 4 bijuu were repelled horribly, Madara's body will be destroyed.



The force of the roar will not even touch Madara if it can't pass through Perfect Susano'o, which of course will not.



> Most importantly here, Kurama isn't restricted by plot, he can spam this roar indefinitely. If the first fails, he shunshins and spits another in the face of Susano, grabs his blade and swipes directly through Susano, roars again, swipes it with his tails, then blows him away with TBB, in a matter of 10 seconds.



So, Kurama, an unintelligent beast, can now use the Shunshin no Jutsu?

And from the scenario that you gave, it seems like you think that Madara can't even react to the Kyuubi and properly respond to his movements; an absurdity.



> He wouldn't have transferred into Kurama unless he had to.
> 
> The previous agreement throughout the NBD was TBB busts Susanos. You have no evidence suggesting it can't, don't tell me "Doesn't mean it can't tank it"



How do you know this? As far as we know, it could just be a matter of convenience, for control two entities at once.

Also, there never was an agreement regarding Perfect Susano'o durability (which is irrelevant, anyway).



> Because Kurama came out of the TBB in armor smoking. Hashirama was surprised, you can infer from that reaction that he didn't think Madara would survive.



To me Hashirama didn't seemed surprised.


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## Duality of Man (Feb 20, 2013)

> The force of the roar will not even touch Madara if it can't pass through Perfect Susano'o, which of course will not.


Pass through? Dude it repelled *blitzing* bijuus several thousand meters. Are you suggesting a wall of stationary chakra won't be pushed back by this same roar? The Susano will either be sent flying or collapse on it's head as the legs will give out. Madara's body will either be destroyed or left defenseless on the ground, as the second roar is now on it's way. All we can be sure of is Madara won't have a chance to grab his mountain busting blade. 



> So, Kurama, an unintelligent beast, can now use the Shunshin no Jutsu?


Kurama is unintelligent? I'm quite sure Kurama is probably one of the most knowledgeable beings in the verse as he's lived for over 200 years and fought with the best. 



> And from the scenario that you gave, it seems like you think that Madara can't even react to the Kyuubi and properly respond to his movements; an absurdity.


Susano is stationary, the distance is 160 feet, after a roar, Madara is not reacting to anyone. 



> How do you know this? As far as we know, it could just be a matter of convenience, for control two entities at once.


Regardless of the motives, his Susano did not tank this weaker TBB alone canonically. That's all there is to it. 



> Also, there never was an agreement regarding Perfect Susano'o durability (which is irrelevant, anyway).


As far as I've witnessed most debaters agreed that TBBs could destroy Susanos. 



> To me Hashirama didn't seemed surprised.


Surprised Hashirama


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## Orochimaru800 (Feb 20, 2013)

Duality of Man said:


> As far as I've witnessed most debaters agreed that TBBs could destroy Susanos.



And as I've witnessed, it's been 50/50 of people saying that TBB could and couldn't destroy full susanoos.

What the hell is your point in all of this?

Good god. Anyway the Susanoo armor* protected* Kurama. Kurama did not protect Madara. How you are getting that this doesn't mean that  PS can tank a regular Bijuu dama is even beyond me and shows you are doing  anything you can to twist the manga to suit your arguments.


Which funny enough, is what most people do when a new chapter comes out.


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## blk (Feb 20, 2013)

Duality of Man said:


> Pass through? Dude it repelled *blitzing* bijuus several thousand meters. Are you suggesting a wall of stationary chakra won't be pushed back by this same roar? The Susano will either be sent flying or collapse on it's head as the legs will give out. Madara's body will either be destroyed or left defenseless on the ground, as the second roar is now on it's way. All we can be sure of is Madara won't have a chance to grab his mountain busting blade.



What do you mean by "blitzing"? The fact that they were moving towards Naruto changes very little.
Also, thousands of meters is an obvious exageration.

Perfect Susano'o withstood without any scratch the force of a Bijuudama that exploded in front of its face, a roar will do nothing.



> Kurama is unintelligent? I'm quite sure Kurama is probably one of the most knowledgeable beings in the verse as he's lived for over 200 years and fought with the best.



Every time that we saw him fighting without any controller/host, he acted as a mindless beast.



> Susano is stationary, the distance is 160 feet, after a roar, Madara is not reacting to anyone.



The distance is not stated in the OP.



> Regardless of the motives, his Susano did not tank this weaker TBB alone canonically. That's all there is to it.



It did, unless you can prove otherwise.



> As far as I've witnessed most debaters agreed that TBBs could destroy Susanos.



Which is of course not the totality of them, and i'm pretty sure that most of them said this only because of a lack of feats of Perfect Susano'o.

Either way this argument doesn't prove anything.



> Surprised Hashirama



He seemed more surprised of the fact that Madara covered the Kyuubi with Perfect Susano'o.
Even other translations support this view [1].


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## Duality of Man (Feb 20, 2013)

> What do you mean by "blitzing"? The fact that they were moving towards Naruto changes very little.
> Also, thousands of meters is an obvious exageration.


No, it actually doesn't. The fact they were moving at high speeds toward Naruto pre-roar means the force wave had to actually stop their movement, then push them back. It's a lot easier to push someone back who isn't moving toward you. A stationary Susano has less of a chance at being unaffected than anyone of those bijuu who were moving their 100 ton chakra animated bodies at full shunshin speed in the opposite direction of the roar. 



> Perfect Susano'o withstood without any scratch the force of a Bijuudama that exploded in front of its face, a roar will do nothing.


It didn't explode yet, it simply made contact with the Susano pushing chakras around it. Then it exploded, where Madara comes out atop Kurama covered in Susano armor smoking.  



> Every time that we saw him fighting without any controller/host, he acted as a mindless beast.


Dude he traded dialogue with Minato and Kushina. He was released from Genjutsu in the middle of a battle zone village under attack, a village that previously condemned him as a Jinchuriki imprisoning him in Kushina, so he raged. Not that surprising, they treated him like garbage, Obito fucked with him all day, and he was under attack by a ninja army. That was the only battle he wasn't under the influence of Genjutsu at full power. 



> The distance is not stated in the OP.


Meaning it's 50m. 



> It did, unless you can prove otherwise.


I don't need to prove it, you do. Susano hasn't tanked TBB canonically, that's my proof. Where's yours? 



> Which is of course not the totality of them, and i'm pretty sure that most of them said this only because of a lack of feats of Perfect Susano'o.


Exactly, just like we say Konohamaru can't tank C3, because he lacks durability features. 



> He seemed more surprised of the fact that Madara covered the Kyuubi with Perfect Susano'o.
> Even other translations support this view [1].


Surprised or not surprised, you still lack features. At this rate, you're arguing on blind faith, something I despise.


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## blk (Feb 20, 2013)

Duality of Man said:


> Dude he traded dialogue with Minato and Kushina. He was released from Genjutsu in the middle of a battle zone village under attack, a village that previously condemned him as a Jinchuriki imprisoning him in Kushina, so he raged. Not that surprising, they treated him like garbage, Obito fucked with him all day, and he was under attack by a ninja army. That was the only battle he wasn't under the influence of Genjutsu at full power.



Even when Kurama took control of Naruto's body, he was always rampaging.

But more importantly, there is no indication that Kurama can use the Shunshin no Jutsu, or that Madara can't react to it.



> Meaning it's 50m.



I don't see this in the rules of the battledome, not that it's an important point, though.



> I don't need to prove it, you do. Susano hasn't tanked TBB canonically, that's my proof. Where's yours?



You are trying to shift the burden of proof here.
We saw that Perfect Susano'o tanked the explosion, without any indication that it was powered-up by Kurama or anything similar.
So, you are the one that has to provide evidences.

If you can't prove that Perfect Susano'o tanked the Bijuudama only because of Kurama, then your argument regarding the roar becomes automatically false.



> Surprised or not surprised, you still lack features. At this rate, you're arguing on blind faith, something I despise.



Hashirama was not surprised (or at least not because of the reason that you stated), so it isn't an evidence for your claim (quite the contrary, actually).


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## Duality of Man (Feb 20, 2013)

> Even when Kurama took control of Naruto's body, he was always rampaging.
> 
> But more importantly, there is no indication that Kurama can use the Shunshin no Jutsu, or that Madara can't react to it.


Kurama can shunshin, Naruto has done it in BM mode. All of the other bijuu have shunshin'd. Every ninja in the manga does it. Why wouldn't Kurama be able to? 

Kurama is intelligent and fully capable of not rampaging in current manga. If you were trapped inside a kid who was the son of the man and woman who imprisoned you would you not rampage? Every bijuu has rampaged on ninja because they have imprisoned them for ages. Naruto set him free, was always nice to him, 

Result: They become friends and allies in battle. Kurama trades analytic dialogue with Naruto throughout the fight. Kurama goes face to face with the Juubi for Naruto. 

Kurama has a brain, the luxury of 200 years of up-close battlefield experience, and a clear high IQ as he spawned directly from the Sage himself. 



> I don't see this in the rules of the battledome, not that it's an important point, though.


Should be the standard, not sure though. 



> You are trying to shift the burden of proof here.
> We saw that Perfect Susano'o tanked the explosion, without any indication that it was powered-up by Kurama or anything similar.
> So, you are the one that has to provide evidences.


We didn't see it tanking the explosion, that's where you're trying to put the burden on me.

You need to post a scan where Madara, alone, tanked a TBB in Susano unfazed. It's not my job to discount Susano, Susano is inferior to TBB by features because TBB is the most destructive offensive power in the manga. 



> If you can't prove that Perfect Susano'o tanked the Bijuudama only because of Kurama, then your argument regarding the roar becomes automatically false.


No it doesn't, that's your job. The manga did not show the Susano tanking TBB, it showed Kurama covered in Susano armor tanking it. 



> Hashirama was not surprised (or at least not because of the reason that you stated), so it isn't an evidence for your claim.


Dude he's clearly surprised. I provided the scan. 

Regardless of the reason, it's logical to assume Hasirama thought the TBB damaged or even killed Madara.


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## Jak N Blak (Feb 20, 2013)

Kurama bites PS, steals a sword and then shit gets real.


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## blk (Feb 21, 2013)

Duality of Man said:


> Kurama can shunshin, Naruto has done it in BM mode. All of the other bijuu have shunshin'd. Every ninja in the manga does it. Why wouldn't Kurama be able to?



Naruto has done it in BM but not with the Kurama Avatar.

We never saw a Bijuu use the Shunshin no Jutsu.



> Kurama is intelligent and fully capable of not rampaging in current manga. If you were trapped inside a kid who was the son of the man and woman who imprisoned you would you not rampage? Every bijuu has rampaged on ninja because they have imprisoned them for ages. Naruto set him free, was always nice to him,
> 
> Result: They become friends and allies in battle. Kurama trades analytic dialogue with Naruto throughout the fight. Kurama goes face to face with the Juubi for Naruto.



Okay, this might be the case.



> We didn't see it tanking the explosion, that's where you're trying to put the burden on me.
> 
> You need to post a scan where Madara, alone, tanked a TBB in Susano unfazed. It's not my job to discount Susano, Susano is inferior to TBB by features because TBB is the most destructive offensive power in the manga.



We clearly saw it [1].
If Susano'o would have been busted, Madara would have died (since he is placed in the forehead of it, and was very near to the epicenter of the explosion).
This feat shows that Perfect Susano'o armor tanked the explosion while it was covering Kurama, but gives no indications that this happened _thanks to Kurama_.
What you suggest, aside from being baseless, makes very little sense: do you wear an armor for increase _its_ durability, or for render _yourself_ harder to damage?

Also, what even mean that Susano'o is inferior in features to a Bijuudama? This makes no sense.
In the first place, Susano'o is something completely different from a Bijuudama, since the former is chakra construct that has various abilities while the latter is just an explosive chakra ball.

For second, the Bijuudama isn't most destructive ability in general, its power 
depends on the chakra used for its creation, like most abilities (Shinra Tensei, Chibaku Tensei, Mokuton, Kamui etc..). Infact we saw Bijuudama that are weaker than the slashes of Perfect Susano'o, for example.

Lastly, Perfect Susano'o, which is the strongest ability of the Madara, the top-notch Uchiha who is potentially the final villain of this manga, which is hyped to be _on par with the power of the Bijuu_, has not "features" for survive to a Bijuudama? Both the hype and the feats point to the exact contrary.




> Dude he's clearly surprised. I provided the scan.
> 
> Regardless of the reason, it's logical to assume Hasirama thought the TBB damaged or even killed Madara.



The reason is everything.
Infact, the reason for why Hashirama was "surprised" was because Madara covered the Kyuubi with Perfect Susano'o, not because he survived to the Bijuudama.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 21, 2013)

Madara's Susanoo protected Kurama from its own blast according to Hashirama.
He said something like "ha..He made the kyuubi wear his susanoo like an armor".

Very few people actually thought *Madara* could be oneshotted with a tail beast bomb anyway lol. It was actually a pretty humorous position to read.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 21, 2013)

I don't see why people are so desperate for Susano'o to be instantly destroyed by a Bijuudama. Oh well. Since the Bijuudama cannot so much as put a scratch on the PS even when it explodes at close range, Kurama cannot win. It all comes down to whether PS has enough force to take Kurama down. It either ends as a stalemate or with PS winning.


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## Sorin (Feb 21, 2013)

Somalese 50% Kurama made a bijuu bomb that dwarfs it. PS would get wrecked by that, including Madara who is inside it. However, i believe that Madara can swing faster and probably injure Kurama before it fires. Another 2 or 3 swings and i see Kurama being defetead.

Now take Kurama and add the other half. Yeah he casually makes one bijuu ball and fires in the general vicinity of Madara. Dead Madara.

And lol at people taking feat from this chapter to prove that Madara's Susano is stronger than Kurama when in fact it was with Kurama's strenght that he even made those feats. EMS Madara alone gets beaten pretty badly by 100 % Kurama. PS's swing with Kurama's strenght is able "decapitate" 6-7 mountain tops. Kurama vaporizes them to nothing. hmm I wonder which one is more impressive...


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## Blu-ray (Feb 21, 2013)

Sorin said:


> Somalese 50% Kurama made a bijuu bomb that dwarfs it. PS would get wrecked by that, including Madara who is inside it. However, i believe that Madara can swing faster and probably injure Kurama before it fires. Another 2 or 3 swings and i see Kurama being defetead.
> 
> Now take Kurama and add the other half. Yeah he casually makes one bijuu ball and fires in the general vicinity of Madara. Dead Madara.
> 
> And lol at people taking feat from this chapter to prove that Madara's Susano is stronger than Kurama when in fact it was with Kurama's strenght that he even made those feats. EMS Madara alone gets beaten pretty badly by 100 % Kurama. PS's swing with Kurama's strenght is able "decapitate" 6-7 mountain tops. Kurama vaporizes them to nothing. hmm I wonder which one is more impressive...



How do you know? How does any of you know? The upper limits of Perfect Susanoo's defense has never been shown. For all we know it could survive the earth exploding without even a scratch. How do you know that Kurama supplemented Susano'o? Actually, it was Susano'o that had to protect Kurama. Cutting up mountains is PS' thing. It didn't need Kurama for something it proved it could do on its own. 

Blowing up mountains is certainly impressive, but it gets a lot less impressive when you have to use your most powerful technique to do it. That is the Bijuudama. When it comes to PS however, simply unsheathing your sword has the side effect of leveling mountains. A single swing can take out at least 6 or 7 mountains. And you can swing as much as you want. It especially gets more impressive when that PS sword can skewer that Bijuudama and take that same Bijuudama exploding in its face. Of course, it is all subjective. What impresses you may not impress someone else.


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## Jak N Blak (Feb 21, 2013)

Now that I really look at it....Lord Kurama's agility can no longer be shoved under the table.

Its the Lord's agility that allowed Madara to spin around that quickly to stop Hashirama's bindings. 

I doubt PS could maneuver that swiftly on its own.

And look at the Lord's size in relation the mountains, he can easily reach the top of those mountains in a single leap, easily avoiding the linear AoE of PS slashes.


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## Sorin (Feb 21, 2013)

VolatileSoul said:


> How do you know? How does any of you know? The upper limits of Perfect Susanoo's defense has never been shown. For all we know it could survive the earth exploding without even a scratch. How do you know that Kurama supplemented Susano'o? Actually, it was Susano'o that had to protect Kurama. Cutting up mountains is PS' thing. It didn't need Kurama for something it proved it could do on its own.
> 
> Blowing up mountains is certainly impressive, but it gets a lot less impressive when you have to use your most powerful technique to do it. That is the Bijuudama. When it comes to PS however, simply unsheathing your sword has the side effect of leveling mountains. A single swing can take out at least 6 or 7 mountains. And you can swing as much as you want. It especially gets more impressive when that PS sword can skewer that Bijuudama and take that same Bijuudama exploding in its face. Of course, it is all subjective. What impresses you may not impress someone else.



Maybe PS Susano'o can take much more than that but it's just speculation now isn't that so? Saying PS can take the full powered bijuu dama is a no limits fallacy. How do i know that he can take earth shattering blows when in fact it never happened? That's why we usually go by feats and PS, as powerful as it is, has never taken an attack of that magnitude.

When Madara was alone and swung his sword only 2 mountain tops were cut. When PS got augemented with Kurama's brute physical force it did more, evidenced by cutting 7(?) mountains instead of 2. The feats from this chapter are done by the combined strenght of Kurama and PS. How can you say Kurama didn't have anything to do with because slicing is PS thing? 

*You have to ask yourself this, why did Madara even need Kurama if his Susano'o is so superior in striking force and brute strenght?* Because i'm sure as hell Kurama is not augmenting some sort of hax here. He is just a powerhouse. 

And PS strongest move is slicing some mountains. Nothing else from Madara comes close to that. You say that BD is impressive because it's Kurama's strongest move, yet PS swinging his sword isn't Madara's? Or am i missing something?

And by the way Madara never leveled montains. He has cut the very tops. Not even halfs. Kurama and the other bijuus have leveled mountains, hence why i said vaporizing is more impressive. It takes a lot more power to make something vanish from the face of the earth than to slice and launch them some km in the air.

By the way, Kurama can machine gun 5 mountain busting BDs casually.


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## blk (Feb 21, 2013)

Sorin said:


> And lol at people taking feat from this chapter to prove that Madara's Susano is stronger than Kurama when in fact *it was with Kurama's strenght that he even made those feats.* EMS Madara alone gets beaten pretty badly by 100 % Kurama. PS's swing with Kurama's strenght is able "decapitate" 6-7 mountain tops. Kurama vaporizes them to nothing. hmm I wonder which one is more impressive...



Perfect Susano'o arms are the ones that have the swords, not Kurama's [1].

Kurama made zero strength feats in this chapter.




Jak N Blak said:


> Now that I really look at it....Lord Kurama's agility can no longer be shoved under the table.
> 
> Its the Lord's agility that allowed Madara to spin around that quickly to stop Hashirama's bindings.
> 
> ...



It was Perfect Susano arm that had the sword that cut through the Mokuton hand.
And no, Kurama is not going to avoid the slash spamming.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 21, 2013)

Sorin said:


> Maybe PS Susano'o can take much more than that but it's just speculation now isn't that so? Saying PS can take the full powered bijuu dama is a no limits fallacy. How do i know that he can take earth shattering blows when in fact it never happened? That's why we usually go by feats and PS, as powerful as it is, has never taken an attack of that magnitude.



It is not a no limits fallacy. I didn't say that PS could take the full power Bijuu ball, I was just asking how do you know that it *couldn't*. You did say PS could not take it correct? You were imposing a limit on PS that you couldn't possibly know.



> When Madara was alone and swung his sword only 2 mountain tops were cut. When PS got augemented with Kurama's brute physical force it did more, evidenced by cutting 7(?) mountains instead of 2. The feats from this chapter are done by the combined strenght of Kurama and PS. How can you say Kurama didn't have anything to do with becauseslicing is PS thing?



You seem to be the one making the fallacious errors my friend. Just because Madara only sliced up two mountains at once does not mean his limit is two. PS did not get augmented by Kurama. It was not stated, nor was it even implied. That is purely fanfiction. It was the other way around. It's not like Madara is a Jinjuuriki. He can't use Kurama's chakra to supplement his own. At least, it was never stated that he could.



> *You have to ask yourself this, why did Madara even need Kurama if his Susano'o is so superior in striking force and brute strenght?* Because i'm sure as hell Kurama is not augmenting some sort of hax here. He is just a powerhouse.



What does that have to do with Kurama vs PS? Anyway, it was a summon. They fight for you. As we can see, Kurama obviously didn't do enough. All it was good for was Bijuudama, roars, and brute force. It never once handed its chakra to Madara, nor did it supplement Madara's techniques. All it did was fight alongside him and get protected by his own Bijuudama.



> And PS strongest move is slicing some mountains. Nothing else from Madara comes close to that. You say that BD is impressive because it's Kurama's strongest move, yet PS swinging his sword isn't Madara's? Or am i missing something?



Drawing down Meteorites for one. Also, I would hardly call PS unsheathing its sword Madara's strongest attack. This thread is PS vs Kurama, not Madara vs Kurama. It is the effort that is involved. A simple sword unsheathing is hardly anything offensive wise, yet it can slice two mountains in the distance as a mere side effect of its power. The amount of effort of the bijuudama, in my eyes, takes away from how impressive it is compared to PS unsheathing its sword. And like I said. Such things are subjective.



> And by the way Madara never leveled montains. He has cut the very tops. Not even halfs. Kurama and the other bijuus have leveled mountains, hence why i said vaporizing is more impressive. It takes a lot more power to make something vanish from the face of the earth than to slice and launch them some km in the air.
> 
> By the way, Kurama can machine gun 5 mountain busting BDs casually.



Those Bijuudama are definitely impressive all right. They have such destructive power. Immensely dense and powerful. Yet PS was able to stick its blade through one like a Shish Kabob, and take one blowing up in its face without so much as a scratch.


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## Orochimaru800 (Feb 21, 2013)

It should also be noted that Madara had *two* susanoo swords to cut up those 7 mountains, instead of one. Tells me that Madara doesn't  only have one susanoo sword  , and it was never stated or even implied that the kyuubi is why he's allowed to have a second sword. Madara can protect the kyuubi and boost him up, the opposite was never noted in the chapter.


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## blk (Feb 21, 2013)

Perfect Susano'o always had two swords [1].

Knowing that Perfect Susano'o arms were the ones that controlled the swords which cut through the six mountains and that it was its armor that withstood the Bijuudama without a scratch, there are no valid reasons for say that the version of PS that Madara used against the Kages can't replicate the feats of the Kyuubi version (excluding the ability to launch Bijuudama, of course).


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## Sorin (Feb 21, 2013)

blk said:


> Perfect Susano'o arms are the ones that have the swords, not Kurama's [1].
> 
> Kurama made zero strength feats in this chapter.



I concede this.




VolatileSoul said:


> It is not a no limits fallacy. I didn't say that PS could take the full power Bijuu ball, I was just asking how do you know that it *couldn't*. You did say PS could not take it correct? You were imposing a limit on PS that you couldn't possibly know.



Like i said, maybe it could take a full powered BB but because we haven't seen feats doing it it can't. It's that simple. This is the battledome, feats have precedence over what could PS do or speculation and hype. The burden of proof is on you to show me that PS can take those massive bijuudamas and move on. 



> You seem to be the one making the fallacious errors my friend. Just because Madara only sliced up two mountains at once does not mean his limit is two. PS did not get augmented by Kurama. It was not stated, nor was it even implied. That is purely fanfiction. It was the other way around. It's not like Madara is a Jinjuuriki. He can't use Kurama's chakra to supplement his own. At least, it was never stated that he could.



Like i said to blk, i already concede on the point of Kurama not augmenting PS slashes. 

On the second part though, the one with the fallacious arguments, you are wrong. I didn't make fallacious arguments since i didn't speculate on what could PS do or what could he tank. I argued with feats. Feats that show Madara's PS tanking a standard bd, not a bigger one. I was wrong when i said he only sliced 2 mountains with his strenght, that is right but because i didn't see Madara's other hand holding the sword. I thought he did it with Kurama's arm.





> What does that have to do with Kurama vs PS? Anyway, it was a summon. They fight for you. As we can see, Kurama obviously didn't do enough. All it was good for was Bijuudama, roars, and brute force. It never once handed its chakra to Madara, nor did it supplement Madara's techniques. All it did was fight alongside him and *get protected by his own Bijuudama*.



It has to do with everything since you're arguing that PS has better defence, better attack power etc... I simply asked, why would Madara even bother bringning Kurama to a fight with Hashirama when PS could do what Kurama does and then some. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. My reasoning is that he does bring something which is superior firepower and brute strenght. 

Bolded part, are you implying that Madara needed to protect Kurama from his own bijuudama? As in Kurama would have suffered damage from that? An exhausted Gyuuki(hachibi) just tanked it's own bijuudama. Bijuus from 2-7 were prepared to shoot their bd at point blank at Kakashi and Gai. Kurama just tanked Juubi's laser. 50 % kurama at that. He didn't need any protection whatsoever. 

By the way Kurama has better feats in other fights than in this one. Surely you know that.





> Drawing down Meteorites for one. Also, I would hardly call PS unsheathing its sword Madara's strongest attack. This thread is PS vs Kurama, not Madara vs Kurama. It is the effort that is involved. A simple sword unsheathing is hardly anything offensive wise, yet it can slice two mountains in the distance as a mere side effect of its power. The amount of effort of the bijuudama, in my eyes, takes away from how impressive it is compared to PS unsheathing its sword. And like I said. Such things are subjective.



It's clear that PS is Madara's strongest tech. Meteorites are good but not anywhere close to PS and it's slashes.That's why it was his final move against the kages and meteorites were first. PS is Madara's game breaking tech.

I just mentioned how Kurama can shoot 5 mountain busting(as in vaporizing to smoke) bijuudama's in succession, casually. With no charge time whatsoever. Again, this is 50% Kurama. 

If you don't see that as more impressive then we're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Let's just agree to disagree and move on. For me vaporizing mountains is more impressive, for you it's unsheathing the sword and slicing mountains in the distance more impressive. Which is basically what it really comes to on the end.




> Those Bijuudama are definitely impressive all right. They have such destructive power. Immensely dense and powerful. Yet PS was able to stick its blade through one like a Shish Kabob, and take one blowing up in its face without so much as a scratch.



And again i was arguing about Kurama's most powerful bd. The one that dwarfs it, not the one that it's the size of kurama's mouth. 

And btw it's funny you say that the bd it's like shish kebab to PS. One could argue that Madara is a complete fool since he's launching that same shish kebab bd at Hashirama. You'd think that slash and sword of his would be enough since it's that much more powerful. 

Let's just agree to disagree since we're not arriving at any conclusion.


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## Duality of Man (Feb 21, 2013)

> Naruto has done it in BM but not with the Kurama Avatar.


Every bijuu has shunshin'd. Kurama can do it. 



> We never saw a Bijuu use the Shunshin no Jutsu.


Yes we have, re-read the chapter where 5 bijuu blitz and attack BM Naruto, shunshin symbols are scattered like graffiti. 



> We clearly saw it [1].
> If Susano'o would have been busted, Madara would have died (since he is placed in the forehead of it, and was very near to the epicenter of the explosion).
> This feat shows that Perfect Susano'o armor tanked the explosion while it was covering Kurama, but gives no indications that this happened _thanks to Kurama_.
> What you suggest, aside from being baseless, makes very little sense: do you wear an armor for increase _its_ durability, or for render _yourself_ harder to damage?


Dude the TBB didn't explode yet. It hit the outer layer of the Susano and then you see both parties making seals, preparing for the peak explosion, which happened in that same panel. 

After the explosion Hashirama is found inside his Mokuton man's head and Madara is atop a Susano covered Kurama.

This was also a spree-fire TBB, meaning it's exceedingly less powerful than a superbijuudama, which will be used. 



> Also, what even mean that Susano'o is inferior in features to a Bijuudama? This makes no sense.
> In the first place, Susano'o is something completely different from a Bijuudama, since the former is chakra construct that has various abilities while the latter is just an explosive chakra ball.


It means Madara hasn't tanked anything in PS that is remotely comparable to a superbijuudama or bijuudama spree-fire. 



> For second, the Bijuudama isn't most destructive ability in general, its power
> depends on the chakra used for its creation, like most abilities (Shinra Tensei, Chibaku Tensei, Mokuton, Kamui etc..). Infact we saw Bijuudama that are weaker than the slashes of Perfect Susano'o, for example.


Upon explosion, there's no doubt the TBB is the most destructive offensive power in the manga, bar Jinton.



> Lastly, Perfect Susano'o, which is the strongest ability of the Madara, the top-notch Uchiha who is potentially the final villain of this manga, which is hyped to be _on par with the power of the Bijuu_, has not "features" for survive to a Bijuudama? Both the hype and the *feats* point to the exact contrary.


No, he doesn't have the features. 

Which is why he needed Kurama to survive the small-spree fire TBB. 

Only the hype points to it, and barely. Saying he's on the level of a bijuu doesn't mean he can survive the onslaught power of the most powerful of the bijuu. 

Kisame and A are both hyped to have chakra on the levels of a bijuu, it does not mean they can survive Kurama.  



> The reason is everything.
> Infact, the reason for why Hashirama was "surprised" was because Madara covered the Kyuubi with Perfect Susano'o, not because he survived to the Bijuudama.


In fact, you don't know that for a fact. So you don't have the right to say "in fact". Your assumptions are not fact, and they are likely wrong in assessment, as any logical individual would presume Madara hit with a direct TBB would not survive.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 21, 2013)

Duality of Man said:


> Pass through? Dude it repelled *blitzing* bijuus several thousand meters. Are you suggesting a wall of stationary chakra won't be pushed back by this same roar? The Susano will either be sent flying or collapse on it's head as the legs will give out. Madara's body will either be destroyed or left defenseless on the ground, as the second roar is now on it's way. All we can be sure of is Madara won't have a chance to grab his mountain busting blade.
> 
> Kurama is unintelligent? I'm quite sure Kurama is probably one of the most knowledgeable beings in the verse as he's lived for over 200 years and fought with the best.
> 
> ...


hashirama was surprised at madaras intelligence of using his susano as armor for the kyuubi. nothing more, nothing less & its stated on that panel.

your argument is an atrocity. susano tanked bijudama. how do we know this?
-its never stated or implied anywhere in the manga that the kyuubi enhanced madaras susano.

-susano is wrapped around the kyuubi as armor which means that damage has to go through susano to reach the kyuubi.

-the armor around the kyuubi which is susano, wasnt even scratched by bijudama.

-the kyuubi wasnt damaged which means that the damage didnt get through the armor.

-madara was completely undamaged & he is only protected by the diamond on its forehead.

_tbb>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>roar_ and the bijudama did absolutely no damage to susano.


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## blk (Feb 21, 2013)

Duality of Man said:


> Every bijuu has shunshin'd. Kurama can do it.



The Kurama Avatar is not a Bijuu, is a chakra construct.



> Yes we have, re-read the chapter where 5 bijuu blitz and attack BM Naruto, shunshin symbols are scattered like graffiti.



How do you know that these symbols mean the utilization of the Shunshin no Jutsu?



> Dude the TBB didn't explode yet. It hit the outer layer of the Susano and then you see both parties making seals, preparing for the peak explosion, which happened in that same panel.
> 
> After the explosion Hashirama is found inside his Mokuton man's head and Madara is atop a Susano covered Kurama.



I know that the Bijuudama didn't exploded yet in that panel, but the fact is that Perfect Susano'o armor (which in that time was covering Kurama) was perfectly intact after it, thus it tanked the explosion.

Infact, after the explosion Madara is still in the exact spot of the forehead of Perfect Susano'o where he was before.

If Perfect Susano'o would have been destroyed, Madara would have been dead.



> Upon explosion, there's no doubt the TBB is the most destructive offensive power in the manga, bar Jinton.



Not necessarily.
Bijuudama's strength is dependant on the chakra used, like most other abilities.



> Which is why he needed Kurama to survive the small-spree fire TBB.



Madara needed Kurama? Why? And how it helped him? He was inside the forehead of Perfect Susano'o all the time.



> Only the hype points to it, and barely. Saying he's on the level of a bijuu doesn't mean he can survive the onslaught power of the most powerful of the bijuu.
> 
> Kisame and A are both hyped to have chakra on the levels of a bijuu, it does not mean they can survive Kurama.



Perfect Susano'o is stated to be as powerful as the Bijuu, not to simply have a similar chakra quantity.



> In fact, you don't know that for a fact. So you don't have the right to say "in fact". Your assumptions are not fact, and they are likely wrong in assessment, as any logical individual would presume Madara hit with a direct TBB would not survive.



Any logical individual would presume that Hashirama was surprised (even if he wasn't so in one of the translations) for the reason that he thought, which is that Madara covered the Kyuubi with Perfect Susano'o.


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## Jak N Blak (Feb 21, 2013)

blk said:


> It was Perfect Susano arm that had the sword that cut through the Mokuton hand.



I see. 



> And no, Kurama is not going to avoid the slash spamming.



As I said...the Lord's agility will no longer be shoved under the table.

After sending his Brothers thousands of meters away with a roar:
- the Jyubi's tails


...in a _SINGLE LEAP_...Lord Kurama managed to capture Lucky Seven in a head lock even though he was already that far away:
- the Jyubi's tails

And that's just the Lord at 50%. We've already seen the Lord being aware of how the Blitz; reference KN6 vs Deva Path.

I shall defend the Lord to the bitter end!


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## blk (Feb 21, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> As I said...the Lord's agility will no longer be shoved under the table.
> 
> After sending his Brothers thousands of meters away with a roar:
> - the Jyubi's tails
> ...



Hmm, yeah, i kind of overlooked the agility of Kurama.

So, he might be able to dodge the slashes for some time, but agility isn't enough for win the battle.

Once Kurama tries to counter attack, Perfect Susano'o will very likely hit him (almost a certainty if he tries to charge a Bijuudama).


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