# Raikage vs. Part 1



## Rocky (May 7, 2014)

Just to see if he could.

20 meters apart on an open field with no knowledge or restrictions for anybody. Bloodlusted mindset for further enjoyment.

This is an actual gauntlet, so no restoration, and he fights all known characters in Part 1 (restricted to abilities at that time) in order of strength, one by one. When a character pops into your head that he stops at, say so and why. Or does he clear? You tell me.


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## Sans (May 7, 2014)

Minato's silhouette was seen in chapter 1.

Ei doesn't make it past his first confrontation.


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## Alex Payne (May 7, 2014)

Gaiden Yondaime should be able to at least tie with Shiki Fujin. Edo Tensei that are left Orochimaru is killed also should be able to outlast him. Kyubi for obvious reasons wins. Rest die.


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## StickaStick (May 7, 2014)

Idk. Itachi via Tsukuyomi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 7, 2014)

Loses to Itachi. Itachi can fend of the initial blitz with an exploding bunshin feint and hit A with Amaterasu after that.
Or alternatively if A decides to stare Itachi down first he gets OHKO'd by Tsukiyomi.

Although I see no other part 1 character standing a chance against him.

edit :  I forgot about Yondi. He'd lose to Minato too.


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## Rocky (May 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Loses to Itachi. Itachi can fend of the initial blitz with an exploding bunshin feint and hit A with Amaterasu after that.
> Or alternatively if A decides to stare Itachi down first he gets OHKO'd by Tsukiyomi.



Itachi can only feint Raikage's blitz if he moves faster than Raikage to actually swap with a clone....which he cannot do. Itachi isn't faster than Raikage, especially not in Part 1 where his feats are limited.

Raikage breaks P1 Itachi in two.



> I forgot about Yondi. He'd lose to Minato too.



Minato has no jutsu in this thread. ITT, if we didn't see it, it doesn't exist.


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## ARGUS (May 7, 2014)

Ay speedblitzes and wrecks everyone in Part 1,,, no one bar possibly itachi had shown the reaction feats to react to someone as fast as A,, particularly in V2,,, 
Hiruzen, Orochimaru, Tsunade,, annd part 1 Jiraiya are all losing to A,,, 
Itachi not showing susanoo in part 1  would also lose to A


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## Cognitios (May 7, 2014)

Does Gaiden count?


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Itachi can only feint Raikage's blitz if he moves faster than Raikage to actually swap with a clone.... which he cannot do.



Its 20 meters I am pretty sure he can. 
Besides, you specified no knowledge, so with bloodlusted mindset Itachi'll opt for Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu from the get Go and hit Raikage before even he realizes what is coming.



> Itachi isn't faster than Raikage, especially not in Part 1 where his feats are limited.



We can't dismiss his speed just because his feats are limited. We can't grant him Susano'o, Izanami, crow clones or other shit he pulled in part 2 but unless there is any indicator that he was slower in part 1 then his physical stats would be transfered over. 



> Raikage breaks P1 Itachi in two.


or he gets OHKO'd by Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu which P1 Itachi has both of which are enough to defeat Raikage.



> Minato has no jutsu in this thread. ITT, if we didn't see it, it doesn't exist.



Ok fair enough.


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## Veracity (May 7, 2014)

Are you kidding me ?

Ay destroys Itachi zero difficulty. It took 5 wood Bunshin clones and a distraction to force Ay into Genjustu. Itachi isn't genjustu'ing someone who can escape his LoS casually.

He's also bloodlusted  , so V2 Ay from the beginning. Ay simply blitzes his ass from the start.

And lol @ Amaterasu hitting anything as per canon. Itachi possesses a slower form of Amaterasu as Sasuke considering he uses a wave as opposed to sphere like Sasuke.


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## Trojan (May 7, 2014)

Did not Kabuto state that old Hiruzen was the strongest kage at the time?  

anyway, he probable loses to

1- Oro. 

A can't seal Hashirama and Tobirama, so he can't possibly win no matter how long he fights. 

2- Minato

obviously.

3- Hiruzen

by hype, according to Kabuto.

4- Jiraiya

I think his feats back then were already enough. Especially with his summoning. 

5- Tsunade

probably, with her Katsuyu, her taijutsu is also stronger than him. 

that's it, more or less, I suppose.


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## Alita (May 7, 2014)

If we are going solely by part 1 feats then he clears. Nobody back during part 1 has shown the speed or overall skill level to contend with A.


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## trance (May 7, 2014)

Ei clears with zero difficulty. V2 Shunshin/blitz. GG.


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## Rocky (May 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its 20 meters I am pretty sure he can.
> Besides, you specified no knowledge, so with bloodlusted mindset Itachi'll opt for Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu from the get Go and hit Raikage before even he realizes what is coming.



Except the Raikage is faster than Itachi and Raiton: Shunshin is faster in activation than anything Itachi will (or can) opt for. I'd love to hear an explanation of how either Mangekyou technique hits a blitzing Raikage. 



> We can't dismiss his speed just because his feats are limited. We can't grant him Susano'o, Izanami, crow clones or other shit he pulled in part 2 but unless there is any indicator that he was slower in part 1 then his physical stats would be transfered over.



We don't know if his speed has changed (for the better or the worse) in Part 2. Only go off his Part 1 speed feats to make sure.



> or he gets OHKO'd by Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu which P1 Itachi has both of which are enough to defeat Raikage.



 Evidence?


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## Turrin (May 7, 2014)

By portrayal he'd lose to: Sannin, Itachi, Hiruzen, Kyuubi, Shukaku, and Minato. Potentially loose to Sandaime-Kazekage

By Part I Feats he'd only certainly loose to Orochimaru Shukaku, and Kyuubi. Potentially he could loose to Hiruzen depending on whether he could bust through Enma-Staff, Kisame if he got a chance to absorb the shroud with Samehada before being blitz'd, Tsunade if she caught him of guard with Gensis of Rebirth, and Gaara would have a chance if he was smart enough to exploit flight right away as well as focus on AOE attacks or quick-sand (or if he transformed into Shukaku (depending on if Ei knows the weakness is to awaken the host). Than there are poison users, Asuma, and Kabuto which Raikage has an extremely low chance of losing too if he dicked around too much, simply due to them only need one hit with poison, hein, or chakra scalpels/reverse shosen to take him out. Though in fairness in Asuma's case we only know Hein could work due to it being exposed as a Fuuton technique in Part II, so i'm not sure whether that counts, but it's an extremely low possibility anyway, so whatever. I guess if you count Gaiden than Minato could win as well with FTG. Depending on the conditions Zetsu via Kagero could pull it out.


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## Rocky (May 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Orochimaru



How? Orochimaru gets blitzed and decapitated...



> Shukaku



With sleeping Gaara (the only version present in Part 1)? lolno. Preskip Naruto beat him.



> Kyuubi.



If it had feats, but it doesn't, so that character is out of the gauntlet. 



> Potentially he could loose to Hiruzen depending on whether he could bust through Enma-Staff.



Please list one reaction feat from Old Hiruzen that suggests he can react to a Raikage blitz, be it v1 or v2, in time to summon Enma and cage up.



> Tsunade if she caught him of guard with Gensis of Rebirth



Rusty Tsunade meets the same fate as Orochimaru.



> Gaara would have a chance if he was smart enough to exploit flight right away as well as focus on AOE attacks or quick-sand.





WHAT THE FUCK? 

This is definitive PROOF of your Raikage hate. Preskip Gaara having a chance at beating Raikage is probably worse than the Sai thing.



> Depending on the conditions Zetsu via Kagero could pull it out.





Both were worthy of heston. Zetsu beating Raikage. Just . He breaks Zetsu's neck again.


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## trance (May 7, 2014)

Pre-TS Gaara was, at best, elite Jonin level. Ei is high Kage level. Gaara gets blitzed.


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## Bonly (May 7, 2014)

If we go with part one feats only then I don't think any part one character has showed anything to suggest they can beat A.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> How? Orochimaru gets blitzed and decapitated...


He tanked Tsunade's punch to the face even in a weakened condition. Ei isn't doing anything to Orochimaru. He can't do anything to the Tensei ether. Orochimaru can literally kick back underground while his Tensei finish Ei off.



> With sleeping Gaara (the only version present in Part 1)? lolno. Preskip Naruto beat him.


Pre-Skip Naruto actually had knowledge that you could end Shukaku by slapping Gaara awake. We don't know if Ei has that knowledge. If he does he'd win. If he tries to fight Shukaku, than he'd loose. 



> If it had feats, but it doesn't, so that character is out of the gauntlet.


You never clarified if stated "feats", such as mountain crushing with a mere swipe of it's tail, etc... counted. If they don't than yeah it has no feats, if they do Ei gets stomped.



> Please list one reaction feat from Old Hiruzen that suggests he can react to a Raikage blitz, be it v1 or v2, in time to summon Enma and cage up.


Ei is not crossing 20m before Hiruzen can summon the staff at the speed of space/time.



> Rusty Tsunade meets the same fate as Orochimaru.


Tsunade still has Gensis of Rebirth to tank anything Ei can dish out, and if Ei gets taken off guard by a punch he dies.



> his is definitive PROOF of your Raikage hate. Preskip Gaara having a chance at beating Raikage is probably worse than the Sai thing.


No this is definitive proof that you lack reading comprehension. Do I think Ei would loose no I don't. I think Ei based on feats "could" loose, because he has no way to handle a flying enemy other than stand there and dodge everything till his enemy is exhausted. Speed doesn't help when you can't see an attack coming such as one underneath you like quick sand, and Ei can't survive being 200m bellow ground.



> Both were worthy of heston. Zetsu beating Raikage. Just . He breaks Zetsu's neck again.


And how does Ei find Zetsu, when an experienced Anbu like Kakashi who had ninja hounds and Sharingan failed to notice him. Zetsu can just outlast Ei, as he doesn't need to eat, drink or anything to survive, like Ei does. Though of course this depends on the rules of the battlefield; can they leave it in search of food/drink or do they have to remain within it's confines. Something only you can clarify. Also granted this relies on Zetsu tacking this tactic, but if were talking any possibility than it's there depending on the rules. 

Also forgot Kimi on my previous list, he could also win due to his regen making him impossible for Ei to kill and if certain bones can pierce Raiton no Yoroi or not.


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## Ghost (May 7, 2014)

jesus fucking christ...


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## trance (May 7, 2014)

Kimimaro beating Ei?


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Except the Raikage is faster than Itachi and Raiton: Shunshin is faster in activation than anything Itachi will (or can) opt for. I'd love to hear an explanation of how either Mangekyou technique hits a blitzing Raikage.


Sasuke was able to mentally react to A and activate a technique before A reached him. Sasuke is slower than Itachi. And the distance in this thread is 4 times the distance between Sasuke and A. 
Do the math.




> We don't know if his speed has changed (for the better or the worse) in Part 2. Only go off his Part 1 speed feats to make sure.


Well suit yourself, absence of evidence isn't evidence. That doesn't help your case either.

What makes sense is to attribute his overall speed, DB score etc to part 1.



> Evidence?


Madara OHKO'd A with his genjutsu that wasn't Tsukiyomi. 
We've also seen that A certainly can't tank or get rid of Amaterasu. Otherwise he'd still have his left arm.

So yes, there is evidence that both techniques would OHKO A.


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## Rocky (May 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke was able to mentally react to A and activate a technique before A reached him. Sasuke is slower than Itachi. And the distance in this thread is 4 times the distance between Sasuke and A.
> Do the math.



Sasuke and Ē lunged at each other and used Chidori & Elbow respectively, not Shunshin. The Raiton: Body Flicker is what had Madara on the defensive, barley managing a guard. I don't recall Sasuke doing anything but activating Enton in response to a v2 flicker, but he already had the Mangekyou activated. He didn't have to spawn flames by sight or cast Tsukuyomi, neither of which are proven to happen faster than Ei's lighting flickers. 



> Well suit yourself, absence of evidence isn't evidence. That doesn't help your case either.



I know that. I'm simply asking you to draw your conclusions regarding Itachi from information presented in Part 1 only.



> So yes, there is evidence that both techniques would OHKO A.



...I knew that. If they land they would certainly end the match. If they land they can take Hashirama. But I doubt they're going to land.


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## Rocky (May 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> He tanked Tsunade's punch to the face even in a weakened condition. Ei isn't doing anything to Orochimaru. He can't do anything to the Tensei ether. Orochimaru can literally kick back underground while his Tensei finish Ei off.



There isn't any evidence that Rusty Tsunade is more powerful than v2 Raikage in strength, but regardless of that, Orochimaru's head will be on the floor before he get's the opportunity to activate Edo Tensei.



> Pre-Skip Naruto actually had knowledge that you could end Shukaku by slapping Gaara awake. We don't know if Ei has that knowledge. If he does he'd win. If he tries to fight Shukaku, than he'd loose.



Stopped reading at Preskip Naruto.



> You never clarified if stated "feats", such as mountain crushing with a mere swipe of it's tail, etc... counted. If they don't than yeah it has no feats, if they do Ei gets stomped.



That was hyperbole.



> Ei is not crossing 20m before Hiruzen can summon the staff at the speed of space/time.





Hiruzen doesn't move at the speed of space/time. Ē's Raiton: Shunshin ends tier 3/5 reflexes Hiruzen before he even considers Enma. Still waiting for those reaction time feats.



> Tsunade still has Gensis of Rebirth to tank anything Ei can dish out, and if Ei gets taken off guard by a punch he dies.



He can cut off her head or beat her into exhaustion. She had trouble hitting Kabuto..



> No this is definitive proof that you lack reading comprehension. Do I think Ei would loose no I don't. I think Ei based on feats "could" loose, because he has no way to handle a flying enemy other than stand there and dodge everything till his enemy is exhausted. Speed doesn't help when you can't see an attack coming such as one underneath you like quick sand, and Ei can't survive being 200m bellow ground.





Ē blitzes Gaara before his sand even leaves the gourd. 



> And how does Ei find Zetsu, when an experienced Anbu like Kakashi who had ninja hounds and Sharingan failed to notice him.



By this logic, Zetsu can just outlast every shinobi in the Manga.

But it doesn't matter to me, because Raikage rips Zetsu to shreds before he manages a clean retreat. 



> Also forgot Kimi on my previous list, he could also win due to his regen making him impossible for Ei to kill and if certain bones can pierce Raiton no Yoroi or not.


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## Veracity (May 7, 2014)

Rusty Tsunade is probabaly still physically stronger then Ay... That tanto feat basically confirms this.


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## Legendary Itachi (May 7, 2014)

>Sick Kimimaro or PTS Gaara or Old Hiruzen can win bloodlusted Raikage in 20m



They better not get chakra crushed before moving.


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## Krippy (May 7, 2014)

So much heston in one thread.

Most part 2 high tiers can solo part 1


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## Turrin (May 7, 2014)

@Rocky
Yeah not going to bother, if your just going to act like a fanboy.


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## Sans (May 7, 2014)

*+*



*=*



Amirite?


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## Rocky (May 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Rocky
> Yeah not going to bother, if your just going to act like a *fanboy*.



I'm sure we're all fanboys:



Krippy said:


> So much heston in one thread.
> 
> Most part 2 high tiers can solo part 1





Legendary Itachi said:


> >Sick Kimimaro or PTS Gaara or Old Hiruzen can win bloodlusted Raikage in 20m
> 
> 
> 
> They better not get chakra crushed before moving.





Stαrkiller said:


> Kimimaro beating Ei?





saikyou said:


> jesus fucking christ...





Alita54 said:


> If we are going solely by part 1 feats then he clears. Nobody back during part 1 has shown the speed or overall skill level to contend with A.





alex payne said:


> Rest die.





...yeah. 



Please get that wad of steaming bull out of here.


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## Sans (May 7, 2014)

Are Tayuya and Kabuto allowed to fight as a team?

Because that combo is basically invincible.


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## Cognitios (May 7, 2014)

Wait a second, are some of you people actually implying that some of part 1 can react to E?
I'm no expert, but to dodge E's top speed punch you need to be around KCM Naruto in speed correct?
Also you need to have around the same durability of KCM Naruto to tank Ey's attacks iirc.
Jesus christ.
-Kimimaro
-Hiruzen
-Tsunade
-Orochimaru
Are these people really high kage tier with part 1 feats?
The only person I can see Ey losing to is Minato.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2014)

@Rocky
Don't know what those other peoples reasoning are, so I wouldn't call them fanboys. I do know what your reasoning is and it's fanboy logic, I.E. ether not addressing what I actually said or just posting emoticons. Besides that the rest of your post is just Ei blitz across 20m before anyone can do anything, which is equally ridiculous logic considering even Fodder Shinobi with a fraction of that distance were able to use Doton techniques before R1-Sandaime-Raikage could blitz them, and while Ei is faster than Sandaime-Raikage with R2-Shushin, he is not likely to use R2-Shunshin out of the gate w/ no knowledge. Sorry, but it's just ridiculous.


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## Rocky (May 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Besides that the rest of your post is just Ei blitz across 20m before anyone can do anything



Which is what happens. You, for whatever reason, believe that everyone and their mother can react to the blitz of one of the fastest characters known.

Once you come out of your fantasy, you'll realize that Raikage breaks kid Gaara's neck with a mean look and uses his limp body to beat Hiruzen to death while Kimimaro bawls in the corner.



> Which is equally ridiculous logic considering even Fodder Shinobi with a fraction of that distance were able to use Doton techniques before R1-Sandaime-Raikage could blitz them,



Sandaime Raikage is slower than his son, and he began his charge in _after_ the fodder had already erected the earth wall anyway. 



> and while Ei is faster than Sandaime-Raikage with R2-Shushin, he is not likely to use R2-Shunshin out of the gate w/ no knowledge. Sorry, but it's just ridiculous.



The 4th Raikage is faster in general, regardless of how much he's amplifying his Raiton Shroud. 

Tell me, does Hiruzen have time to draw blood & summon in this instance? Can kid Gaara even process such speed? 

Get outta here.


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## Dr. White (May 7, 2014)

Itachi, possibly Orochimaru, and Hiruzen are the only ones who can do anything. Hiruzen is decent and may be able to throw up a mud wall, but I see him losing before anything spectacular happens on his end.

Oro can Leach jutsu into the ground, and set up ET with summons to attack. From there it's a stamina constest, and Hashi's mokuton is a def advantage IMO.

Itachi isn't getting blitz short of V2 full shushin. Bee was able to lariat on pace with V2 Ei, and Sasuke in pt. 2 was able to chidori on equal footing with V1 Ei IIRC. Itachi can get his clone game involved if Ei doesn't insta V2 blitz and from there its a 50/50, Itachi either uses feint clone + Ama or lands Tsukuyomi (in the fashion Sasuke reacted to/genjutsu'd  V1 Bee, or simply at close range), if not Ei takes his head.

Edit: Actually gonna reanalyze because just remembered this is a true gauntlet.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Which is what happens. You, for whatever reason, believe that everyone and their mother can react to the blitz of one of the fastest characters known.


Because at 20m any Jonin will be able to cast at least 1 Jutsu before Ei gets there. Hell Ei let Sasuke utilize an attack several times while he just stood there and did nothing. So even at 1m starting distance if we played out a match 100 times, Ei probably lets any enemy, even fucking Genin, utilize 1 Jutsu, because he just stands there doing nothing, in at least a few of those 100 matches.



> Once you come out of your fantasy, you'll realize that Raikage breaks kid Gaara's neck with a mean look and uses his limp body to beat Hiruzen to death while Kimimaro bawls in the corner.


Like I said fanboy BS



> Sandaime Raikage is slower than his son


Where is it stated that Sandaime-Raikage in R1 is significantly slower than Ei in R1? 



> and he began his charge in after the fodder had already erected the earth wall anyway.


The wall was not already erected, we see the wall still rising as Sandaime-Raikage is charing. Go back and re-read that chapter. Additionally we have the example Dodai who was able to use his Rubber-Wall Technique and Rubber-Ball in the middle of Sandaime-Raikage's charges. And once again nether of these distances were even remotely 20m. 



> Tell me, does Hiruzen have time to draw blood & summon in this instance? Can kid Gaara even process such speed?


If you want it to be that instance, than you should have made the conditions that Ei instantly uses Max-Speed punch and the match starts at 3m. However instead you saw fit to make the match start at 20m and w/o knowledge. You also asked if anyone could possibly win, not even if their odds are good and that's not even mentioning the fact that you have Ei taking on everyone gauntlet style. 

Now let me ask you,does Hiruzen have time to draw blood & summon in this instance? Can kid Gaara even process such speed, in this instance; 
_age_
_age_

Or this instance:
_age_

Both of which Ei stands there doing absolutely fucking nothing; now let's extend the distance 20m. 

And you really going to sit here and say out of 100 matches there is no conceivable scenario where Gaara has time to take flight or Hiruzen has time to summon enma. Please spare me the BS.

Edit: By the by I'm also waiting for the "feat" of even R2-Shunshin Ei crossing 20m faster than someone can bite their finger and them summon at the speed of S/T.


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## Sans (May 7, 2014)

Saying that Ei can beat Part I Gaara in a blitz isn't fanboy logic. 

I would say pretty much any low Kage and up can shunshin in and snap his neck.


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## Rocky (May 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Because at 20m any Jonin will be able to cast at least 1 Jutsu before Ei gets there. Hell Ei let Sasuke utilize an attack several times while he just stood there and did nothing. So even at 1m starting distance if we played out a match 100 times, Ei probably lets any enemy, even fucking Genin, utilize 1 Jutsu, because he just stands there doing nothing, in at least a few of those 100 matches.



It should be a special occurrence when anyone manages to do anything more than guard against the Raikage's speed. Jōnin and kids from Part 1 aren't doing shit in response. Ē plays a pick up game of B-Ball with Gaara's skull. He turns Hiruzen & Orochimaru into the net, Enma into the pole, and Kimimaro into the backboard. 

Hiruzen may fair decently in his prime, but in his old age he gets fucking massacred. Dat Tier 3/5 reaction time vs. top tier speedster. I also find it amusing that your argument is geared on Ē _letting_ his opponents accomplish something.  Even if he did, he would just avoid whatever they used and _then_ blitz without effort. 



> Like I said fanboy BS







> Where is it stated that Sandaime-Raikage in R1 is significantly slower than Ei in R1?



The 4th Raikage was noted for his peerless speed & reflexes on a number of occasions, and his feats with the Body Flicker are superior, whether it be v1 or v2. Since the only thing we have supporting the 3rd Raikage's speed is a broad comment from Naruto, you _should_ be asking where it was stated that Sandaime Raikage is equal to his son.



> The wall was not already erected, we see the wall still rising as Sandaime-Raikage is charing. Go back and re-read that chapter. Additionally we have the example Dodai who was able to use his Rubber-Wall Technique and Rubber-Ball in the middle of Sandaime-Raikage's charges. And once again nether of these distances were even remotely 20m.



All this really proves in the end is that Sandaime is far slower than his son. Characters like Curse Seal Jūgo, KCM Naruto, and even Edo Madara barley managed to throw up arm guards in response to Raikage's v1 flickers.

There is no need to discuss v2. Please, if not for me, then for the sake of our Part 1 friends.  



> If you want it to be that instance, than you should have made the conditions that Ei instantly uses Max-Speed punch and the match starts at 3m. However instead you saw fit to make the match start at 20m and w/o knowledge. You also asked if anyone could possibly win, not even if their odds are good and that's not even mentioning the fact that you have Ei taking on everyone gauntlet style.



That wasn't 3 meters, or Ē's max speed.



> Now let me ask you,does Hiruzen have time to draw blood & summon in this instance? Can kid Gaara even process such speed, in this instance;
> Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> ...



Well sure, if Ē just stands there and lets Hiruzen summon. I don't see why he would do so, though, and it wouldn't change the outcome anyway. 



> And you really going to sit here and say out of 100 matches there is no conceivable scenario where Gaara has time to take flight or Hiruzen has time to summon enma. Please spare me the BS.



I have no interest in discussing miniscule probabilities. I'm sure that once out of every gagillion fights Haku could floor Itachi with a senbon. It just won't happen often enough to even discuss. 



> Edit: By the by I'm also waiting for the "feat" of even R2-Shunshin Ei crossing 20m faster than someone can bite their finger and them summon at the speed of S/T.



I'm waiting for the feat of Hiruzen doing _anything_ in response to a Ē-level flicker from 20 meters.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> It should be a special occurrence when anyone manages to do anything more than guard against the Raikage's speed. Jōnin and kids from Part 1 aren't doing shit in response. Ē plays a pick up game of B-Ball with Gaara's skull. He turns Hiruzen & Orochimaru into the net, Enma into the pole, and Kimimaro into the backboard.
> 
> Hiruzen may fair decently in his prime, but in his old age he gets fucking massacred. Dat Tier 3/5 reaction time vs. top tier speedster


So basically another fanboy response that once again dodges the issue of distance.



> . I also find it amusing that your argument is geared on Ē _letting_ his opponents accomplish something.


You can find it amusing all you want; doesn't change the reality that Ei has tendency to just stand there and let his enemy do shit.



> Even if he did, he would just avoid whatever they used and then blitz without effort.


Which once again comes down to whether he can bust Enma's Staff and hit flying Gaara



> The 4th Raikage was noted for his peerless speed & reflexes on a number of occasions, a


Sandaime-Raikage was also noted for his speed and compared to Ei by Naruto. 



> nd his feats with the Body Flicker are superior, whether it be v1 or v2. .


Where is his superior R1 Shunshin feat?



> Since the only thing we have supporting the 3rd Raikage's speed is a broad comment from Naruto, you should be asking where it was stated that Sandaime Raikage is equal to his son


Let's see Naruto comparing the two Raikages vs Nothing to substantiate some drastic difference in R1 Ei's speed.



> All this really proves in the end is that Sandaime is far slower than his son. Characters like Curse Seal Jūgo, KCM Naruto, and even Edo Madara barley managed to throw up arm guards in response to Raikage's v1 flickers.


Actually what it proves is distance matters, which should be common sense, but there you go.



> That wasn't 3 meters, or Ē's max speed.


Was it 20m? Does Ei always act that way? If the answer is no than it doesn't matter.



> Well sure, if Ē just stands there and lets Hiruzen summon. I don't see why he would do so, though, and it wouldn't change the outcome anyway


He's done so before, so yeah....



> have no interest in discussing miniscule probabilities. I'm sure that once out of every gagillion fights Haku could floor Itachi with a senbon. It just won't happen often enough to even discuss.


Well than maybe you should comprehend someone's point before bashing them, as I was talking about possibilities, and not even potentially likely ones. BTW... I don't think Haku is ever beating Itachi no matter how many times you play the match out. Edit: In-fact I think that is utterly ridiculous whether were talking portrayal or "feats".



> I'm waiting for the feat of Hiruzen doing anything in response to a Ē-level flicker from 20 meters.


Well when you produce the feat of Ei's-level 20m flicker than we can compare, until than you got nothing.


----------



## Rocky (May 7, 2014)

Turrin said:


> So basically another fanboy response that once again dodges the issue of distance.



Would you like another heston, or a jimmie rustling pic?



> You can find it amusing all you want; doesn't change the reality that Ei has tendency to just stand there and let his enemy do shit.



He did that twice, once against Sasuke and once against Minato. This doesn't mean that he will take the same actions against Hiruzen or Gaara, especially considering there are instances where he attacks before his opponent. 



> Which once again comes down to whether he can bust Enma's Staff and hit flying Gaara



Raikage doesn't have to bust Enma to kill Hiruzen, and why is Gaara preemptively taking flight? More importantly, why is Raikage letting Gaara in the air?



> Sandaime-Raikage was also noted for his speed and compared to Ei by Naruto.



Sandaime's hype is concentrated in endurance, and he was never _directly_ compared to the 4th Raikage.



> Where is his superior R1 Shunshin feat?



_*"Characters like Curse Seal Jūgo, KCM Naruto, and even Edo Madara barley managed to throw up arm guards in response to Raikage's v1 flickers." 
*_



> Let's see Naruto comparing the two Raikages vs Nothing to substantiate some drastic difference in R1 Ei's speed.



Naruto said that Raikage are fast. That isn't a direct comparison between the two Raikage.



> Actually what it proves is distance matters, which should be common sense, but there you go.



The distances between all of those blitzes were close to, if not the same or even greater than 20 meters.



> Was it 20m? Does Ei always act that way? If the answer is no than it doesn't matter.



If you're asking me if I fucking measured it, then no. Eyeballing it, the distance doesn't seem to different.



> Well than maybe you should comprehend someone's point before bashing them, as I was talking about possibilities, and not even potentially likely ones.



They are miniscule in chance, so your overall point was pretty much meaningless. Like I said, Itachi may trip and fall 1 out of every whatever fights, allowing Haku to nail him with a senbon while he's down. No point in discussing that.



> Well when you produce the feat of Ei's-level 20m flicker than we can compare, until than you got nothing.



How about you produce the reaction feat of Hiruzen reacting to a speedster from 20 meters.


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## Veracity (May 7, 2014)

Turrin why the hell would he not be able to hit flying Gaara? 

Gravity doesn't actually take effect in this manga at times , it's the reason why Gai can double jump, and Sasuke can flip over KB after already being airborne...

So considering Tsunade could leap over a boss summon with a tanto the size of a skyscraper before said summon could close it's mouth and basically blitz Jirayia + Bunta, I'm under the impression that Ay can literally materialize on Gaara sand and tear his face apart.

V2 AY>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rusty Tsunade with Tanto regarding speed.


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## trance (May 7, 2014)

Ei doesn't even need to jump. Pre-TS Gaara's sand attacks are fast for Part I characters but far from anything that can bother a high tier Kage whose primary specialty is raw speed. With each move, Gaara wastes chakra while Ei has plenty to spare in addition to casually evading his attacks. Gaara will eventually tire from exhaustion and that's when Ei skullfucks him.


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## Veracity (May 7, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Ei doesn't even need to jump. Pre-TS Gaara's sand attacks are fast for Part I characters but far from anything that can bother a high tier Kage whose primary specialty is raw speed. With each move, Gaara wastes chakra while Ei has plenty to spare in addition to casually evading his attacks. Gaara will eventually tire from exhaustion and that's when Ei skullfucks him.



From an average debaters point of view yeah. Most people believe that Ay just speed blitzes and fucks Gaara in two . 

But Turrin is under the impression that Gaara can fly on his sand and escape Ay's AoE. I'm saying that because Tsunade could heavily outpace a boss summon while carrying a sword the size of a skyscraper and jumping 150+ meters, that Ay will have zero problems blitzing Gaara even in the sky.


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## rubberguy (May 8, 2014)

Turrin, you disappoint me.


----------



## trance (May 8, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> From an average debaters point of view yeah. Most people believe that Ay just speed blitzes and fucks Gaara in two .
> 
> But Turrin is under the impression that Gaara can fly on his sand and escape Ay's AoE. I'm saying that because Tsunade could heavily outpace a boss summon while carrying a sword the size of a skyscraper and jumping 150+ meters, that Ay will have zero problems blitzing Gaara even in the sky.



Exactly.

KCM Naruto tried to bypass Ei by jumping. Ei easily matched his jump and garnered a surprised reaction from Naruto who seemed to be pretty confident about his speed. Part I Gaara floating on his sand is _vastly_ slower than KCM Naruto. Gaara gets on his sand and Ei jumps and cuts Gaara's head off before Gaara's sand can even think to defend him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke and Ē lunged at each other and used Chidori & Elbow respectively, not Shunshin. The Raiton: Body Flicker is what had Madara on the defensive, barley managing a guard. I don't recall Sasuke doing anything but activating Enton in response to a v2 flicker, but he already had the Mangekyou activated. He didn't have to spawn flames by sight or cast Tsukuyomi, neither of which are proven to happen faster than Ei's lighting flickers.


I was talking about this : Link removed

If you notice they are like 2 meters away from each other. This thread states its 20 meters. 
Also Itachi is faster than Sasuke. He certainly has faster jutsu activation speed too, as evidenced in the Kabuto fight. 



> I know that. I'm simply asking you to draw your conclusions regarding Itachi from information presented in Part 1 only.


Then based on his exploding bunshin feint, I'd say he'd definitely be able to pull off a similar thing here.



> ...I knew that. If they land they would certainly end the match. If they land they can take Hashirama. But I doubt they're going to land.



Its not like A can consistently avoid those. 
A was watching Sasuke's MS to be able to anticipate Amaterasu but for some reason Sasuke didn't cast genjutsu. Itachi will. He always has. 
So it is likely that A will be caught by genjutsu from the get go, expecially when he has 0 knowledge and he'll lunge himself into an illusion Itachi turning into crows only to get blindsided by Amaterasu.  
Or just get hit by Amaterasu directly since he won't even know what is coming due to 0 knowledge.


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## Ersa (May 8, 2014)

Even if we only take Part I feats into account, I think Itachi, Kyuubi and "Akatsuki Leader" can beat Ei, feats and portrayal wise.


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## rubberguy (May 8, 2014)

Part 1 itachi only showed ama and tsukiyomi and get tired after using one of them not like they are hitting him anyways and akatsuki leader has no feat in part 1.


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## blk (May 8, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Even if we only take Part I feats into account, I think Itachi, Kyuubi and "Akatsuki Leader" can beat Ei, feats and portrayal wise.



Your imagination doesn't count as feats.



Turrin said:


> Besides that the rest of your post is just Ei blitz across 20m before anyone can do anything, which is equally ridiculous logic considering even Fodder Shinobi with a fraction of that distance were able to use Doton techniques before R1-Sandaime-Raikage could blitz them, and while Ei is faster than Sandaime-Raikage with R2-Shushin, he is not likely to use R2-Shunshin out of the gate w/ no knowledge. Sorry, but it's just ridiculous.



What would change even if they are able to use some jutsu before that A blitz them? A can easily avoid any part 1 attack, while no part 1 character can deal with his overwhelming speed and strength.


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## Legendary Itachi (May 8, 2014)

Itachi has the best chance here, but without Susanoo he loses, Susanoo is needed against a bloodlusted V2 Raikage in 20m.

Even by feats we know Kyubi requires a legend Hokage - who's feared and respected by all dangerous Shinobi in part 1 - to sacrifice his life just to seal the fox, destroying Konoha and killing numerous Shinobi. Raikage doesn't have such feats to defeat the Kyubi.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> He did that twice, once against Sasuke and once against Minato. This doesn't mean that he will take the same actions against Hiruzen or Gaara, especially considering there are instances where he attacks before his opponent.


Twice against Sasuke and once against Minato. That's three times. Or to put it another way 2 of the 5 fights he's had he's done it. Now I've made it clear to you several times now that i'm talking about possibilities, like could someone win some matches out of 100. I think it's easy to see why i'm factoring that in as a possibility. 



> Raikage doesn't have to bust Enma to kill Hiruzen


If Enma is used in cage form he does.



> and why is Gaara preemptively taking flight?


I specifically said if Gaara is wise enough to take flight. So if you don't think Gaara ever is out 100 matches, than I don't see why your arguing with my post. 



> More importantly, why is Raikage letting Gaara in the air?


Because he's at 20m, which I don't see him crossing before Gaara can lift himself in the air, especially if this is one of the times where Ei just stands there doing nothing at first. 



> Sandaime's hype is concentrated in endurance, and he was never directly compared to the 4th Raikage.


Sandaime-Raikage was hyped by KCM-Naruto as being fast and Naruto compared him to the previous Raikage he fought; Ei. That is no doubt hype in speed.



> "Characters like Curse Seal Jūgo, KCM Naruto, and even Edo Madara barley managed to throw up arm guards in response to Raikage's v1 flickers."


This is better than Sandaime-Raikage why? The fastest one there is KCM-Naruto, and KCM-Naruto needed a crazy feint to be able to land a hit on Sandaime-Raikage and directly compared the two.



> Naruto said that Raikage are fast. That isn't a direct comparison between the two Raikage.


Please, spare me. The reason that was put in there was clearly Kishi drawing a comparison between the two Raikages. 



> The distances between all of those blitzes were close to, if not the same or even greater than 20 meters.


Maybe the problem is that your underestimating the distance of 20m. For reference Kishimoto considers the length of Sasuke's Eisou in this scan 5m. So for Kishi 20m would be x4 that size; none of those distances come even remotely close to 20m. 



> If you're asking me if I fucking measured it, then no. Eyeballing it, the distance doesn't seem to different.


Are kidding me, the distance in that room is 20m. The distance wasn't even 5m there. Once again I' beginning to think the issue is you have underestimate 20m distance.



> They are miniscule in chance, so your overall point was pretty much meaningless. Like I said, Itachi may trip and fall 1 out of every whatever fights, allowing Haku to nail him with a senbon while he's down. No point in discussing that.


Raikage has stood there and done nothing in 2/5th of his matches. That means out of 100 matches he'd do so 40 times, assuming the ratio remained the same. That's hardly the minuscule possibility that your trying to make it out to be.



> How about you produce the reaction feat of Hiruzen reacting to a speedster from 20 meters.


From Part I, he never fought any match at 20m, so I don't see how you can demand that from me. In Part II he reacted to Juubito's charge from a closer distance than 20m and even avoided his initial black elemental attack with a mere shoulder wound; and Juubito puts Ei to shame in speed. 

Though sticking to Part I what we do know is to summon Enma it only takes one biting their hand and than summoning at the instant speed of S/T. Hiruzen's hand-seals speed, which relates to his hand dexterity/movement speed is a 5, and even Ei is slower than the speed of space-time. So were talking about the time it takes someone who is top tier in hand speed/dexterity having to move their hand a few inches. Yeah there is no reason to believe any speedster can cross 20m that quickly, except maybe Gated-Gai. 

Now where's Ei's feat of crossing 20m before someone can move their hand, right at the start of battle. No to mention, that your the one asserting that there is zero possibility Hiruzen can ever win, so the burden of proof is 100% on you.



blk said:


> What would change even if they are able to use some jutsu before that A blitz them? A can easily avoid any part 1 attack, while no part 1 character can deal with his overwhelming speed and strength.


Ei's speed meaningless if he can't actually see the attack coming, like Shiki Fuujin.


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## Csdabest (May 8, 2014)

Raikage tries to kill Sasuke. Orochimaru Sicks Kimimaro on his ass. And Itachi shows why you don't fuck with his brother. Raikage gets raped. war arc shows that part one characters are scaled pretty well to part 2 seeing as Zabuza the oldest villainin the manga damn near was able to steal keep up with kakashi in CQC despite the 3 year gap. I think the power growth was only extensive in sasuke and Naruto and everyone in Part 2 isnt really that much stronger than we think they are.


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## Rocky (May 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Twice against Sasuke and once against Minato. That's three times. Or to put it another way 2 of the 5 fights he's had he's done it. Now I've made it clear to you several times now that i'm talking about possibilities, like could someone win some matches out of 100. I think it's easy to see why i'm factoring that in as a possibility.



The first time Sasuke charged in, Ē simply let Darui take care of him, but if you're just talking about small chance, then sure.



> If Enma is used in cage form he does.



Without knowledge, I don't see why Hiruzen is going to cage up right away. He'll attempt to smack Ē with Enma, but the Raikage will just flank and decapitate, or break through Hiruzen's guard using his physical strength.



> I specifically said if Gaara is wise enough to take flight. So if you don't think Gaara ever is out 100 matches, than I don't see why your arguing with my post.



Without knowledge, I don't think there's even a small chance that Gaara gets in the air before he gets blitzed.

Also, Likes boss made a good point regarding flight. 



> Sandaime-Raikage was hyped by KCM-Naruto as being fast and Naruto compared him to the previous Raikage he fought; Ei. That is no doubt hype in speed.



When did Naruto directly compare him to Ē?



> This is better than Sandaime-Raikage why? The fastest one there is KCM-Naruto, and KCM-Naruto needed a crazy feint to be able to land a hit on Sandaime-Raikage and directly compared the two.



That Naruto clone didn't need anything "crazy" to hit Sandaime, but I don't see how that's impressive considering the real Naruto couldn't even get _around_ v1 Ē for the majority of their match. Dodai & co. had far less trouble getting away from Sandaime Raikage. 



> Please, spare me. The reason that was put in there was clearly Kishi drawing a comparison between the two Raikages.



If that was clear, I wouldn't be arguing it.



> Maybe the problem is that your underestimating the distance of 20m. For reference Kishimoto considers the length of Sasuke's Eisou in this scan 5m. So for Kishi 20m would be x4 that size; none of those distances come even remotely close to 20m.



Oh _hell_ no. I will literally go edit the distance to 5m then, because that is _not_ 20 meters. Sasuke himself isn't that far off of 2 meters, and that Eisō is like 10x his fricken height. 



> Raikage has stood there and done nothing in 2/5th of his matches. That means out of 100 matches he'd do so 40 times, assuming the ratio remained the same. That's hardly the minuscule possibility that your trying to make it out to be.



Is this a 40% chance that he'll let them do something before they die, or a 40% chance they don't die?



> From Part I, he never fought any match at 20m, so I don't see how you can demand that from me. In Part II he reacted to Juubito's charge from a closer distance than 20m and even avoided his initial black elemental attack with a mere shoulder wound; and Juubito puts Ei to shame in speed.





Jūbito ran through his shuriken attack, grabbed him in the face, and blew it off.



> Now where's Ei's feat of crossing 20m before someone can move their hand, right at the start of battle. No to mention, that your the one asserting that there is zero possibility Hiruzen can ever win, so the burden of proof is 100% on you.



I've been swayed; I do think Raikage will let Hiruzen summon Enma so he can have somewhat of a challenge. I just don't think it matters, because the subsequent blitz will kill the old man. He isn't caging up without knowledge.


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## blk (May 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Ei's speed meaningless if he can't actually see the attack coming, like Shiki Fuujin.



Admittedly, Shiki Fuujin might be able to defeat the Raikage.
However only Hiruzen has the jutsu (i don't think Minato is allowed, since he has no feats), the rest of part 1 is still pretty much hopeless (given that Ay is way faster than anyone, stronger than everyone except for Tsunade and giant summons/Shukaku and more durable than anyone except from perhaps Kimi).


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## ATastyMuffin (May 8, 2014)

I cannot believe a serious argument was made that the Fourth Raikage would be beaten by not only Hiruzen, but...

fucking pre-timeskip Gaara and sick, diseased, Kimimaro? Jesus.


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## Sans (May 8, 2014)

Either Sasuke's Eiso extended due to his use of the Juin, or Kishi derped on the scale.

The OBD has calculated Sasuke's height to be like, 8m in certain panels and other similar things.

Don't be a retard and assume that basic measurements are massively different in the Narutoverse.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The first time Sasuke charged in, Ē simply let Darui take care of him, but if you're just talking about small chance, then sure.


Okay, so we actually agree, and this is the same thing you were bashing me for 



> Without knowledge, I don't see why Hiruzen is going to cage up right away. He'll attempt to smack Ē with Enma, but the Raikage will just flank and decapitate, or break through Hiruzen's guard using his physical strength.


I think if we play the match out 100 times there are going to be at least a few where Hiruzen see's muscle bound Ei pumping SSJ Raiton no Yoroi and thinks he needs that defense given his exp. I mean even without knowledge of Ei specifically Hiruzen is probably aware of what Raiton no Yoroi does. 



> Without knowledge, I don't think there's even a small chance that Gaara gets in the air before he gets blitzed.


So once again I go back to, you needing to read my post properly before jumping to bashing someone, as I very specifically said if Gaara is smart enough. If you believe he is not than fine; I honestly do not know what I believe in this regard. I know if I was Gaara I'd take one look at Ei and try to get distance, especially after prior experience against CQC specialist like Kimi and Lee, but it's very possible Gaara is dumber than me.



> Also, Likes boss made a good point regarding flight


Quote it to me, than.



> When did Naruto directly compare him to Ē?


When he said all Raikage are fast, with his only frame of reference being Ei.



> That Naruto clone didn't need anything "crazy" to hit Sandaime, but I don't see how that's impressive considering the real Naruto couldn't even get around v1 Ē for the majority of their match.


Naruto did not need chakra arm feints and shit to clash with Ei.



> Dodai & co. had far less trouble getting away from Sandaime Raikage


Once again because of distance, which matters much more than your giving it credit for.



> If that was clear, I wouldn't be arguing it.


Your arguing for the sake of arguing, when you know it is very clear that Naruto was comparing them. Literally his only frame of reference was Ei.



> Oh hell no. I will literally go edit the distance to 5m then, because that is not 20 meters. Sasuke himself isn't that far off of 2 meters, and that Eisō is like 10x his fricken height


Editing the distance is up to you. But that doesn't change the fact that in the manga cannon Kishi called Sasuke's Eisou 5m, so when considering how much distance a character can cover with their speed in the manga cannon, that should be our guide for 20m. Now can I ask you something, with that in mind can you now understand why I do not think Ei is blitzing across 20m.



> Is this a 40% chance that he'll let them do something before they die, or a 40% chance they don't die?


40% chance that he'll just stand there doing nothing. At 20m I'd say it's basically a 99% chance that he is not blitzing before they can cast a single Jutsu.



> Jūbito ran through his shuriken attack, grabbed him in the face, and blew it off.


So were just ignoring that Hiruzen paritally dodged Juubito initial charge with the black element and that it was only Juubito's second attack which happened at point blank range, that Hiruzen couldn't avoid. Again this is why distance matters; it goes from Hiruzen reacting partially to one of the fastest characters in the verse to Hiruzen not being able to react at all, depending on distance.



> I've been swayed; I do think Raikage will let Hiruzen summon Enma so he can have somewhat of a challenge. I just don't think it matters, because the subsequent blitz will kill the old man. He isn't caging up without knowledge.


If you don't think he cages without knowledge than fine, but again I ask is me thinking he might cage out of 100 matches some-times such a crime that it warranted the level of BS I had to go through to get you to have an actual civil conversation about this?



blk said:


> Admittedly, Shiki Fuujin might be able to defeat the Raikage.
> However only Hiruzen has the jutsu (i don't think Minato is allowed, since he has no feats), the rest of part 1 is still pretty much hopeless (given that Ay is way faster than anyone, stronger than everyone except for Tsunade and giant summons/Shukaku and more durable than anyone except from perhaps Kimi).


Depends on if stated feats count as Minato was stated to have Shiki Fuujin in Part I. Also when it comes to Minato vs Ei, it would depend on if Gaiden counts. Only the OP could clear that up. 

Orochimaru would also win as Ei can't put him or his Tensei down. Kimi has potential to win for the same reason, depending on if his strongest bones can get through Raiton no Yoroi. Tsunade could win if Ei thought he killed her only for he to get back up after gensis of rebirth. There are others with exceedingly low chances of winning. With that said Orochimaru is the only one i'd give a decisive win to anyway, the rest range from mid to low chances of winning. Though of course if we factor in the guantlet stipulation Ei could loose to a-lot of people because even with Bijuu level reserves he has to run out some time.


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## trance (May 8, 2014)

> Naruto did not need chakra arm feints and shit to clash with Ei.



Technically speaking, Naruto never "clashed" with Ei per se. He was simply trying to bypass him so he could fight in the War. Not once he try to attack Ei.


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## Rocky (May 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Okay, so we actually agree, and this is the same thing you were bashing me for



Oh I still don't think that outcome is probable enough to even be worth debating. You just like to bring it up for whatever reason.



> I think if we play the match out 100 times there are going to be at least a few where Hiruzen see's muscle bound Ei pumping SSJ Raiton no Yoroi and thinks he needs that defense given his exp. I mean even without knowledge of Ei specifically Hiruzen is probably aware of what Raiton no Yoroi does.



Ē activates RnY & flickers while Hiruzen summons Enma. From here, Hiruzen presumably blocks Ē's strike (if he's even capable).

Ok, so if Hiruzen managed to block in time without getting his arms ripped off, the fight proceeds– 6 ft 5, black, buff-as-fuck blood lusted Raikage vs. old-ass, tier 3/5 strength & reflexes Hiruzen in CQC. 

Yeah, there isn't even time for him to form the cage. Good fucking game.



> I know if I was Gaara I'd take one look at Ei and try to get distance, especially after prior experience against CQC specialist like Kimi and Lee, but it's very possible Gaara is dumber than me.



For all Gaara knows, Ē could be a long ranged specialist, so stop, thanks. Ē stomps Gaara with killer intent.



> When he said all Raikage are fast, with his only frame of reference being Ei.



"Raikage are fast" ≠ "Sandaime Raikage's speed is just as fast as v1 Ē's."

Yes, his frame of reference was Ē. This is because Ē is fast. 



> Naruto did not need chakra arm feints and shit to clash with Ei.



Naruto never clashed with Raikage. He tried to get around him, but couldn't. Dodai got away from Sandaime.



> Once again because of distance, which matters much more than your giving it credit for.



No it doesn't. Not unless it was much larger than this.



> Your arguing for the sake of arguing, when you know it is very clear that Naruto was comparing them. Literally his only frame of reference was Ei.



See above.

Oh, and arguing for the sake of arguing is what you have been doing. "Hiruzen wins 6 out of every 100 matches" or whatever is utterly pointless.



> Editing the distance is up to you. But that doesn't change the fact that in the manga cannon Kishi called Sasuke's Eisou 5m, so when considering how much distance a character can cover with their speed in the manga cannon, that should be our guide for 20m. Now can I ask you something, with that in mind can you now understand why I do not think Ei is blitzing across 20m.



If you think the distance is 100 meters, then I could understand why you underestimate the Raikage to a certain degree (he would still rip most of these guys in two). Here's what I think about it:



			
				Kom said:
			
		

> Either Sasuke's Eiso extended due to his use of the Juin, or Kishi derped on the scale.
> 
> The OBD has calculated Sasuke's height to be like, 8m in certain panels and other similar things.
> 
> Don't be a retard and assume that basic measurements are massively different in the Narutoverse.





> 40% chance that he'll just stand there doing nothing. At 20m I'd say it's basically a 99% chance that he is not blitzing before they can cast a single Jutsu.



Ok I concede the point then. .

There's a 40% chance Ē waits a moment before he neg diffs. 



> So were just ignoring that Hiruzen paritally dodged Juubito initial charge with the black element and that it was only Juubito's second attack which happened at point blank range, that Hiruzen couldn't avoid. Again this is why distance matters; it goes from Hiruzen reacting partially to one of the fastest characters in the verse to Hiruzen not being able to react at all, depending on distance.



Obito stabbed him in the shoulder, grabbed him before he could do anything, and fucking killed him.


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## Dr. White (May 9, 2014)

This is a gauntlet so Raikage is gonna have to go through all the jonin before he gets to the kage level ninjas. This is the only edge they have. Only Oro, and Itachi can win, only Hiruzen can tie(very slim chance via Shiki Fujin).

Itachi will be aggressively feinting, and abusing MS off the bat if bloodlusted, moving like he did vs Bee. So if Itachi can land a MS jutsu before Ei hits him, or can catch him mid blitz like Minato with Tsukuyomi, or Ama, he can force a win or tie. I'd Say Ei takes 7/10 times just because Itachi lacks his pt. 2 speed feats (although his feats are still pretty good) and other jutsu/feats. 

Oro can win if he can survive the first barrage (ei won't have knowledge to behead him), and meld into the ground and escape to set up ET with summons to buy time. From there he might be able to poison him, or just overwhelm him with the kages (Mokuton was restricted by the barrier as we saw.) I'd Say Ei 9/10 times due to lacking pt. 2 feats, and lack of overall kill presence without kages.


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## Turrin (May 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Oh I still don't think that outcome is probable enough to even be worth debating.


You said multiple times now it's a 40% chance that he allows a character to use a Jutsu. Now your telling me a 40% chance is not worth bringing up?



> You just like to bring it up for whatever reason.


Whatever reason? You said to state any character that pops into our heads which Ei might stop at. That means any character that has any off chance of beating Ei, is worth bringing up. Ei allowing a character a free move factors into that off chance. So you want a reason well, it's how you worded your OP. If you had said characters who Ei definitely looses to I would have only listed Orochimaru.



> Ē activates RnY & flickers while Hiruzen summons Enma. From here, Hiruzen presumably blocks Ē's strike (if he's even capable).
> 
> Ok, so if Hiruzen managed to block in time without getting his arms ripped off, the fight proceeds? 6 ft 5, black, buff-as-fuck blood lusted Raikage vs. old-ass, tier 3/5 strength & reflexes Hiruzen in CQC.
> 
> Yeah, there isn't even time for him to form the cage. Good fucking game.


And once again I said it depends on if he uses cage form. If he decides to just summon the staff and duke it out in CQC with Ei, than obviously he's going to loose. But if his first move is summoning enma for the cage than he's got a chance.



> For all Gaara knows, Ē could be a long ranged specialist, so stop, thanks. Ē stomps Gaara with killer intent.


Again if you think Gaara is that stupid that your prerogative. It still in no way invalidates what I said, because for the third time I said if Gaara is smart enough.



> "Raikage are fast" ≠ "Sandaime Raikage's speed is just as fast as v1 Ē's."
> 
> Yes, his frame of reference was Ē. This is because Ē is fast.


When did I say he exactly equals Ei. I said he shouldn't be vastly far off from Ei and Kishimoto having Naruto compare them is more than enough to believe that to be unlikely.



> Naruto never clashed with Raikage.


Yes he did. Ei through out blows which Naruto blocked.



> He tried to get around him, but couldn't. Dodai got away from Sandaime.


When did Dodai get away from Sandaime-Raikage w/o help or a large distance between them.



> No it doesn't. Not unless it was much larger than this.


But it did and it was shorter distances than this. That is unless you want to argue Fodder and Dodai are faster than Hiruzen can summon enma.



> See above.
> 
> Oh, and arguing for the sake of arguing is what you have been doing. "Hiruzen wins 6 out of every 100 matches" or whatever is utterly pointless.


I'm arguing to defend my post, from completely unfair and irrational criticism. The Hiruzen wins a low amount of every 100 matches, is an analysis that you, yourself invited with how you worded the OP, so to push that blame off on me is ridiculous.



> If you think the distance is 100 meters, then I could understand why you underestimate the Raikage to a certain degree (he would still rip most of these guys in two). Here's what I think about it:


I think the distance is the manga-cannon definition of 20m. If you want to ignore that manga-cannon, be my guest, but please do not bash me for going of the actual manga.



> There's a 40% chance Ē waits a moment before he neg diffs.


So your once again falling back on fanboy responses in place of having an actual argument. 



> Obito stabbed him in the shoulder, grabbed him before he could do anything, and fucking killed him


Obito tried to kill him with the first attack. Hiruzen partially dodged it. There are no if and or buts about it. Did he dodge the other attack that came from point blank range, of course not, and if Ei start 1m away from Hiruzen, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but you put Ei at 20m.


----------



## Veracity (May 9, 2014)

Turrin, Hirzuen will not be able to form
 his Enma cage as he won't be able to physically see Ay move. Sasuke with the MS couldn't see Ay move. Hirzuen might magically have the time to summon Enma, but Ay appears behind him and liger bombs him into oblivion.


----------



## Rocky (May 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> You said multiple times now it's a 40% chance that he allows a character to use a Jutsu. Now your telling me a 40% chance is not worth bringing up?



Is your goal to determine the winner, or to determine the probably of a guy getting an attack off before he is slaughtered? 



> Whatever reason? You said to state any character that pops into our heads which Ei might stop at. That means any character that has any off chance of beating Ei, is worth bringing up.



Not if that chance is nearly non-existent, which it is in the case of Hiruzen or Preskip fucking Gaara.



> And once again I said it depends on if he uses cage form. If he decides to just summon the staff and duke it out in CQC with Ei, than obviously he's going to loose. But if his first move is summoning enma for the cage than he's got a chance.



The moment he summons Enma he's going to have a BL Raikage in his face beating him to death. 

There is no cage, only Raikage crushing Hiruzen like a soda can with Liger Bomb. The only way that cage is coming out is if no-knowledge Hiruzen preemptively uses it while a bloodthirsty Raikage is purposely holding off his assault and letting it happen. The chance of that occurring is incredibly low, if not nonexistent. 



> Again if you think Gaara is that stupid that your prerogative. It still in no way invalidates what I said, because for the third time I said if Gaara is smart enough.



Are there any scans of Gaara acting this way? You know, preemptively takig flight against a man he knows nothing about? No? Then I don't see why the thought would _ever_ cross Gaara's mind.

He didn't even do so against Kimimaro, who has just beaten Rock Lee– a shinobi Gaara knows is beastly up close. 



> I said he shouldn't be vastly far off from Ei and Kishimoto having Naruto compare them is more than enough to believe that to be unlikely.



He is slower, which is what I said in the first place. So, I would appreciate it if you didn't use Sandaime Raikage's failures and apply them to Ē, because I will ignore them. 



> When did Dodai get away from Sandaime-Raikage w/o help or a large distance between them.



Dodai noticed Sandaime Raikage when the man was a few steps away. He then proceeded to weave seals, form a rubber ball, and feint Sandaime right in front of his face.

Sandaime Raikage on Ē's level. They're just both fast, which is all Naruto was saying all along.



> But it did and it was shorter distances than this. That is unless you want to argue Fodder and Dodai are faster than Hiruzen can summon enma.



When did the 4th Raikage fail to blitz Dodai or fodder?



> I'm arguing to defend my post, from completely unfair and irrational criticism. The Hiruzen wins a low amount of every 100 matches, is an analysis that you, yourself invited with how you worded the OP, so to push that blame off on me is ridiculous.



You would need to bump the number of matches to 1000 or even 10,000 to determine the most accurate probability of Hiruzen winning. Hiruzen may take 1 out of every 10,000 imo. Preskip Gaara never wins.



> I think the distance is the manga-cannon definition of 20m. If you want to ignore that manga-cannon, be my guest, but please do not bash me for going of the actual manga.



Scale is often inconsistent in fiction, especially in this manga. There were times in the Rinnegan Obito where Kakashi was the size of B's palm, while Obito appeared as a dot on B's hand. Yet you still seem to be hung up on this issue, so I'll leave this here:



			
				Kom said:
			
		

> Don't be a retard and assume that basic measurements are massively different in the Narutoverse.





			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> So your once again falling back on fanboy responses in place of having an actual argument.







> Obito tried to kill him with the first attack. Hiruzen partially dodged it. There are no if and or buts about it.



There is no such thing as a "partial dodge." He got stabbed in the shoulder, which isn't evading.

The funny thing is, I believe I even agreed that Hiruzen could arm guard against Ē (or use Enma to block him). He would just get torn apart from there.


----------



## Turrin (May 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Is your goal to determine the winner, or to determine the probably of a guy getting an attack off before he is slaughtered?
> .


My goal is to determine who could possibly win. You made it a discussion on getting an attack of before someone gets slaughtered when you stated Ei blitz them before they can do anything.



> Not if that chance is nearly non-existent, which it is in the case of Hiruzen or Preskip fucking Gaara.


Than maybe you should state someone who has a "high chance of winning" in the OP, instead of blaming other people. And maybe you should also change it from being a gauntlet while your at it.



> The moment he summons Enma he's going to have a BL Raikage in his face beating him to death.


I doubt that's the case at 20m.



> Are there any scans of Gaara acting this way? You know, preemptively takig flight against a man he knows nothing about? No? Then I don't see why the thought would ever cross Gaara's mind.


"Again if you think Gaara is that stupid that your prerogative. It still in no way invalidates what I said, because for the fourth time I said if Gaara is smart enough."



> He is slower, which is what I said in the first place. So, I would appreciate it if you didn't use Sandaime Raikage's failures and apply them to Ē, because I will ignore them.


Ei would have to be vastly faster than Sandaime-Raikage to outperform him here, when the distance is larger.



> Dodai noticed Sandaime Raikage when the man was a few steps away. He then proceeded to weave seals, form a rubber ball, and feint Sandaime right in front of his face.
> 
> Sandaime Raikage on Ē's level. They're just both fast, which is all Naruto was saying all along.


That was mid air, jumping speed has never matched foot speed.



> When did the 4th Raikage fail to blitz Dodai or fodder?


When did Ei succeed in a similar situation? See how that works.



> You would need to bump the number of matches to 1000 or even 10,000 to determine the most accurate probability of Hiruzen winning. Hiruzen may take 1 out of every 10,000 imo. Preskip Gaara never wins.


You can say any ridiculous number you want, it still doesn't invalidate you unfairly attacking my post. When your now admitting Hiruzen can win.

Also if you want to be ridiculous with numbers. I'd give Hiruzen a 100% chance to win and Sra Gaara a 100% chance to win, considering that you made this match gauntlet style and Ei would have to go through hundreds of shinobi w/o knowledge before he even reached Hiruzen of Gaara, leaving even him exhausted and useless assuming he even got that far. Ei has a huge chakra reserve, but even if he just use R1 in every match he'd probably be on his last leg before he reached Hiruzen



> Scale is often inconsistent in fiction, especially in this manga. There were times in the Rinnegan Obito where Kakashi was the size of B's palm, while Obito appeared as a dot on B's hand. Yet you still seem to be hung up on this issue, so I'll leave this here:


If scale is inconsistent than we must put al of Ei's distances crossing  feats into question, as the distance might actually be much shorter. Simply put you can't just argue the feats you don't like to be inconsistent, while embracing the ones that you do. If you want to argue "feats" can be inconsistent than fine, I agree with that, in which case i'll direct you to the part of my post where I discussed who would win via portrayal.



> There is no such thing as a "partial dodge." He got stabbed in the shoulder, which isn't evading.


Partial "existing only in part; incomplete"
Dodge "avoid (someone or something) by a sudden quick movement."



> e funny thing is, I believe I even agreed that Hiruzen could arm guard against Ē (or use Enma to block him). He would just get torn apart from there.


Than once again you can refer to my response about how Hiruzen would only have a chance if he used Enma-cage form, and how I agree that he'd loose if he did not. So what are you arguing about


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (May 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Partial "existing only in part; incomplete"
> Dodge "avoid (someone or something) by a sudden quick movement."



If we're getting technical, then no, that is a direct conflict of terms. If your dodge or evasive manoeuvre is only partial or incomplete, then it isn't a dodge, because you were still hit by the attack.

If your opponent has the speed advantage and you can't dodge, then you could try and move your body in such a fashion that you avoid taking a critical or direct hit, whereby your opponent fails to hit you in the exact position they had planned to strike you in. However, that it isn't actually a _dodge_, it's more akin to parrying or staving a blow.​​


----------



## Turrin (May 9, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> If we're getting technical, then no, that is a direct conflict of terms. If your dodge or evasive manoeuvre is only partial or incomplete, then it isn't a dodge, because you were still hit by the attack.
> 
> If your opponent has the speed advantage and you can't dodge, then you could try and move your body in such a fashion that you avoid taking a critical or direct hit, whereby your opponent fails to hit you in the exact position they had planned to strike you in. However, that it isn't actually a _dodge_, it's more akin to parrying or staving a blow.​​


An incomplete dodge is a perfectly acceptable phrase.


----------



## Rocky (May 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> You made it a discussion on getting an attack of before someone gets slaughtered when you stated Ei blitz them before they can do anything.



Oh he is _very_ capable of doing so. I simply granted you that Ē may let them do something based on examples you provided that speak towards his character. But in admitting to that, I made sure as to add that they would still be slaughtered regardless of their success in pulling off a single technique. 



> Than maybe you should state someone who has a "high chance of winning" in the OP, instead of blaming other people. And maybe you should also change it from being a gauntlet while your at it.



It doesn't even have to be high. Hiruzen doesn't have a reasonable chance of winning, period. Gaara has none at all.



> I doubt that's the case at 20m.



It is.



> If Gaara is smart enough.



I'm 100% certain he isn't.



> Ei would have to be vastly faster than Sandaime-Raikage to outperform him here, when the distance is larger.



Do you have evidence that the level of speed required of Ē needs to be "vastly superior" to Sandaime Raikage to outperform him?

If not, then I still don't know why you keep bringing him up. He has nothing to do with Ē.



> That was mid air, jumping speed has never matched foot speed.



Ē's air flickers have matched his ground flickers plenty of times. I don't know what you're basing this on.



> When did Ei succeed in a similar situation? See how that works.



You don't understand how it works, clearly. Ē hasn't succeeded in that situation because he hasn't been in one like it. 

If Ē hasn't been in a similar situation to his father, then there is no point if referencing the 3rd Raikage unless his speed is that of his son's, which it isn't.

For the record, Ē's v1 flickers had KCM Naruto on the defensive, barley managing guards. I doubt Dodai could weave seals, blow rubber balls in his face, and feint him....unless he operates quicker than KCM Naruto does..



> Also if you want to be ridiculous with numbers. I'd give Hiruzen a 100% chance to win and Sra Gaara a 100% chance to win, considering that you made this match gauntlet style and Ei would have to go through hundreds of shinobi w/o knowledge before he even reached Hiruzen of Gaara, leaving even him exhausted and useless assuming he even got that far. Ei has a huge chakra reserve, but even if he just use R1 in every match he'd probably be on his last leg before he reached Hiruzen





Raikage neck-snaps his way to the Elite Jōnin with the back of his five pound hand. No need for Raiton no Yori. 

Ē running out of chakra isn't happening when the most tiring fight he'll have before Hiruzen might last 1 minute tops.



> If scale is inconsistent than we must put al of Ei's distances crossing  feats into question, as the distance might actually be much shorter.



Let's use big people (real life) measurements for the purpose of the thread, 'k? If something looks roughly 20 meters, you can go ahead and assume it's close. Think of a football field, that's what I do.



> Than once again you can refer to my response about how Hiruzen would only have a chance if he used Enma-cage form, and how I agree that he'd loose if he did not. So what are you arguing about



He won't get the chance to use Enma-cage form before Raikage has broken his neck in two. Hiruzen has tier 3/5 reflexes and is going up against a blood lusted roof-tier speedster. I granted you that he would have time to summon Enma, but I am not conceding that Hiruzen will then have the time to form the cage before Ē has moved into melee range– assuming no knowledge Sarutobi even opts for it in the first place.


----------



## Turrin (May 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Oh he is _very_ capable of doing so. I simply granted you that Ē may let them do something based on examples you provided that speak towards his character. But in admitting to that, I made sure as to add that they would still be slaughtered regardless of their success in pulling off a single technique.


So once again you are the one making this a discussion point. So please don't complain then when I'm discussing it.



> It doesn't even have to be high. Hiruzen doesn't have a reasonable chance of winning, period. Gaara has none at all.


Reasonable - "a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event."

Even you said they could win 1/10,000 times  or whatever ridiculous number you cited. So basically your calling yourself unreasonable. 



> I'm 100% certain he isn't.


"Again if you think Gaara is that stupid that your prerogative. It still in no way invalidates what I said, because for the fourth time I said if Gaara is smart enough."

That's all your getting from me until you admit you misread my post and jumped the gun.



> Do you have evidence that the level of speed required of Ē needs to be "vastly superior" to Sandaime Raikage to outperform him?


Considering were talking about a greater distance here and were talking about Hiruzen whose jutsu casting speed should be higher than fodder. I believe that to be common sense.



> Ē's air flickers have matched his ground flickers plenty of times. I don't know what you're basing this on.


I believe we've had this discussion before and your "evidence" of such was extremely lacking. I'm not going to delve into it again.



> You don't understand how it works, clearly. Ē hasn't succeeded in that situation because he hasn't been in one like it.
> 
> If Ē hasn't been in a similar situation to his father, then there is no point if referencing the 3rd Raikage unless his speed is that of his son's, which it isn't.
> .


Than you shouldn't be demanding that I offer evidence of a specific situation ether.



> For the record, Ē's v1 flickers had KCM Naruto on the defensive, barley managing guards. I doubt Dodai could weave seals, blow rubber balls in his face, and feint him....unless he operates quicker than KCM Naruto does.


Once again the answer is distance or jumping speed vs foot speed.



> Raikage neck-snaps his way to the Elite Jōnin with the back of his five pound hand. No need for Raiton no Yori.
> 
> Ē running out of chakra isn't happening when the most tiring fight he'll have before Hiruzen might last 1 minute tops


Doesn't matter if the match lasts 1 second, pumping massive chakra to activate Raiton no Yori is going to be taxing. And now your arguing Ei starts every fight in "base" without even usng Raiton no Yori. That makes your position that Ei blitz's everyone across 20m before they can cast jutsu even more nonsensical.



> Let's use big people (real life) measurements for the purpose of the thread, 'k? If something looks roughly 20 meters, you can go ahead and assume it's close. Think of a football field, that's what I do.


We can use real-life measurements if you want, but if your arguing Kishi draws the scales wrong at times, we can't apply them with any certainty. Basically you can't have you cake and eat it too.



> He won't get the chance to use Enma-cage form before Raikage has broken his neck in two. Hiruzen has tier 3/5 reflexes and is going up against a blood lusted roof-tier speedster. I granted you that he would have time to summon Enma, but I am not conceding that Hiruzen will then have the time to form the cage before Ē has moved into melee range? assuming no knowledge Sarutobi even opts for it in the first place.


To form the cage it takes:
- A split instance for someone who has roof tier hand-speed to bite his finger
- Instant time to summon
- a split instance for Enma to henge into the cage

According to you Ei is starting these fights not even using Raiton no Yoroi, but "base" speed.
According to your conditions Ei has to cross 20m 
According to you there is a 40% chance Ei just stands there doing nothing at the start of the match

Give your own statements and conditions it makes zero logical sense that Hiruzen would never be able to form the cage, even if we played out match multiple times. Sorry it just doesn't.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (May 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> An incomplete dodge is a perfectly acceptable phrase.



But if a dodge is incomplete then it isn't a dodge :sanji
​​


----------



## Sans (May 9, 2014)

I never knew using the metric system meant I got to both eat a cake and keep another one.

Fucking score.


----------



## Rocky (May 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Considering were talking about a greater distance here and were talking about Hiruzen whose jutsu casting speed should be higher than fodder. I believe that to be common sense.



I don't know why you keep bringing up fodder. Ē didn't fight those fodder.



> Once again the answer is distance or jumping speed vs foot speed.



Prove it. I don't recall Ē's flickers in the air ever being stated to be slower than the ones on the ground.



> Doesn't matter if the match lasts 1 second, pumping massive chakra to activate Raiton no Yori is going to be taxing.



Prove it. Cut the baseless bull.



> And now your arguing Ei starts every fight in "base" without even usng Raiton no Yori. That makes your position that Ei blitz's everyone across 20m before they can cast jutsu even more nonsensical.



Ē doesn't need Raiton no Yori to blitz fodder like the Sound 4 and guys of their level, and 20 meters isn't a large distance. 



> We can use real-life measurements if you want, but if your arguing Kishi draws the scales wrong at times, we can't apply them with any certainty. Basically you can't have you cake and eat it too.



I don't even understand what you're saying.



> To form the cage it takes:
> - A split instance for someone who has roof tier hand-speed to bite his finger
> - Instant time to summon
> - a split instance for Enma to henge into the cage



Roof tier hand speed? 

You're also overlooking the amount of time it takes Hiruzen to think of the strategy. 

Hiruzen would still get blitzed after summoning Enma. 

Unless you're saying he uses the cage in response to Ē's blitz 



> According to you Ei is starting these fights not even using Raiton no Yoroi, but "base" speed.
> According to your conditions Ei has to cross 20m
> According to you there is a 40% chance Ei just stands there doing nothing at the start of the match



I said he doesn't need Raiton no Yori to stomp kids, or anyone below Elite Jonin level really. After that, he will need it. That isn't a problem though.



> Give your own statements and conditions it makes zero logical sense that Hiruzen would never be able to form the cage, even if we played out match multiple times. Sorry it just doesn't.



It makes perfect sense. Your definition of logical sense is incredibly strange.


----------



## blk (May 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Depends on if stated feats count as Minato was stated to have Shiki Fuujin in Part I. Also when it comes to Minato vs Ei, it would depend on if Gaiden counts. Only the OP could clear that up.
> 
> Orochimaru would also win as Ei can't put him or his Tensei down. Kimi has potential to win for the same reason, depending on if his strongest bones can get through Raiton no Yoroi. Tsunade could win if Ei thought he killed her only for he to get back up after gensis of rebirth. There are others with exceedingly low chances of winning. With that said Orochimaru is the only one i'd give a decisive win to anyway, the rest range from mid to low chances of winning. Though of course if we factor in the guantlet stipulation Ei could loose to a-lot of people because even with Bijuu level reserves he has to run out some time.



First of all, regeneration requires chakra. Second, someone who has regeneration doesn't necessarily have the capability of efficiently regenerate any kind of damage.

Orochimaru will probably run out of chakra before that the Raikage does (oral rebirth surely costs more chakra than a karate chop, which is enough for Ei to cause deadly wounds to oro), and thus will be unable to regenerate any further.

Kimimaro doesn't have feats that suggest that he can withstand a full power Raikage's hit in the head or neck. Nor his regeneration was shown to efficiently regenerate from a similar attack.

Same goes for Tsunade, except that she is even less durable than Kimi. Ei chop her head off 99% of the times.


----------



## Turrin (May 10, 2014)

blk said:


> First of all, regeneration requires chakra. Second, someone who has regeneration doesn't necessarily have the capability of efficiently regenerate any kind of damage.
> 
> Orochimaru will probably run out of chakra before that the Raikage does (oral rebirth surely costs more chakra than a karate chop, which is enough for Ei to cause deadly wounds to oro), and thus will be unable to regenerate any further.
> 
> ...


The problem with all of these assertions is that Ei has to fight literally hundreds of shinobi to get there due to the gauntlet stipulation, so I don't think stamina is a good argument in these cases.


----------



## Turrin (May 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't know why you keep bringing up fodder. Ē didn't fight those fodder.


You know exactly why, now your just playing dumb, and i'm not going to bother with that.



> Prove it. I don't recall Ē's flickers in the air ever being stated to be slower than the ones on the ground.


Like I said we've discussed this as length before, go back and re-read those posts. I'm not going to waste my time rehashing something i've already discussed with you.



> Prove it. Cut the baseless bull.


Prove what exactly, that activating Raiton no Yoroi hundreds of times is going to consume considerable chakra? If that's what you want me to prove, than it's common sense and you and I both know that.



> Ē doesn't need Raiton no Yori to blitz fodder like the Sound 4 and guys of their level, and 20 meters isn't a large distance.


So your dodging the question



> I don't even understand what you're saying.


What part of it did you not understand?



> Roof tier hand speed?
> 
> You're also overlooking the amount of time it takes Hiruzen to think of the strategy.
> 
> ...


Your just repeating yourself again instead of addressing any of my points. No need to bother with any of this.



> said he doesn't need Raiton no Yori to stomp kids, or anyone below Elite Jonin level really. After that, he will need it. That isn't a problem though.


How the hell does he know characters are Genin or Jonin? You gave him no knowledge.



> It makes perfect sense. Your definition of logical sense is incredibly strange.


Again no addressing the points and dodging the question.

Most of this is simply dodging the question, so you can get back to me when your ready to actually address things.


----------



## Rocky (May 10, 2014)

Looks like a giant concession to me. "I'm not going to bother" isn't an argument. 



Turrin said:


> You know exactly why, now your just playing dumb, and i'm not going to bother with that.



Sandaime is slower than the 4th Raikage, and you have yet to provide any sort of evidence to suggest otherwise, so no, I'm not playing dumb. Why are you bringing him up?



> Prove what exactly, that activating Raiton no Yoroi hundreds of times is going to consume considerable chakra? If that's what you want me to prove, than it's common sense and you and I both know that.



Common sense? If so, that should be easy to prove. 

Raiton no Yori was never stated to be taxing, and Ē has bijū level stamina, so no, it isn't common sense.



> How the hell does he know characters are Genin or Jonin? You gave him no knowledge.



That's true I suppose (unless they're children). He'll probably just leave Raiton no Yori on. The amount of time he's going to spend killing the named Part 1 characters is probably going to be less then the time he spent fighting Madara, tbh.


----------



## Sans (May 10, 2014)

If we take the Shinobi Grand Alliance strength of 80,000, factor in the minor villages that didn't get involved and use the end result, it's clear that Ei is eventually felled by some random fodder Chuunin.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (May 10, 2014)

^ Yeah.

By the end of the match with Madara Ei is no longer using his chakra shroud, and even when Tsunade falls unconscious and is about to be stabbed he still jumps to save her without creating a shroud to boost his speed. Against Shinsuusenjuu also, he attacks it without a shroud active.

Ei has bijuu levels of chakra but even bijuu-levels get used up eventually.​​


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## Rocky (May 10, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Ei has bijuu levels of chakra but even bijuu-levels get used up eventually.​​



He won't be fighting _that_ long, nor will his fights be as difficult as his bout against Madara (or Spiral Zetsu). 

The gauntlet is only against named characters, by the way. At least, that's what I meant when I said:



> fights all *known* characters


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (May 10, 2014)

That's what I assumed initially, though your discussion with Turrin made me think otherwise.

That being said, there are still many many named featless/near-featless characters that you have to consider: Ebisu, Raido, Genma, Iwashi, Hayate, Baki, Demon Brothers, Anko, Inoichi, Shikaku, Yoshino, Yoroi, Misumi, Izumo, Kotetsu, Hana, Tsume, Ibiki, Homura, Koharu all come to mind, and there are plenty more.

Then there's characters like the rookies, Haku, Chouza, Asuma, Kurenai, Hiashi and Shizune who have slightly more feats but may be more difficult to one shot than the fodders.

Those characters are easy enough for him to kill but having to individually attack and beat down each one until they're dead or knocked out will have its toll on him. Especially considering he still has the Sound 4, Kimimaro, Kakashi, Zabuza, Hiruzen, Gai, Kisame, Itachi and all three Sannin to deal with, even if they are a lot weaker.

I don't know if Ei will have the stamina for it.​​


----------



## KyuubiFan (May 10, 2014)

Only the Sannin, Kisame, Itachi and maybe Kimimaro would provide some difficulity but even they would last only until he goes V2. The rest gets slaughtered easily.


----------



## Turrin (May 10, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> But if a dodge is incomplete then it isn't a dodge :sanji
> ​​


It's an incomplete dodge, which still illustrates what I was talking about.



Rocky said:


> Looks like a giant concession to me. "I'm not going to bother" isn't an argument.


And all the repeating of the same stuff over and over again, and dodging questions looks like a concession to me and isn't an argument.



> Sandaime is slower than the 4th Raikage, and you have yet to provide any sort of evidence to suggest otherwise, so no, I'm not playing dumb. Why are you bringing him up?


No you have yet to provide any evidence that Ei is drastically faster than Sandaime when Naruto directly compared them. And regardless of whether you think Ei is faster or not, the Sandaime point still illustrates why distance matters and we don't always see the much faster character blitzing someone before they can cast jutsu. In the case the gap in speed being even more drastic as it's Sandaime-Raikage vs Fodder.



> Common sense? If so, that should be easy to prove.
> 
> Raiton no Yori was never stated to be taxing, and Ē has bijū level stamina, so no, it isn't common sense.


This is like saying Sasuke can use Grand-Fireball hundreds of times before exhausting himself. It was never stated to be taxing and Sasuke has much higher stamina relative to the amount of stamina he had as an 8 year old and could still use Grand-Fireball. It's just silliness plain and simple. On-top of that I should remained you that if your going to take the position that it's impossible someone can win, the burden of proof is 100% on you to prove that Ei does not get exhausted from the hundreds of matches leading up to fighting Hiruzen or SRA-Gaara. 

But anyway sure there is plenty of proof. Karin says Ei is pumping Bijuu chakra levels into the shroud, when Ei uses R2. And there isn't some massive difference between R2 and R1 in visual appearance, so it seems unlikely that R2, pumps that much more chakra into the shroud.

Plus see what Godaime said.



> That's true I suppose (unless they're children). He'll probably just leave Raiton no Yori on. The amount of time he's going to spend killing the named Part 1 characters is probably going to be less then the time he spent fighting Madara, tbh.


First off he didn't use the shroud the whole time against Madara. Beyond that your saying he'd activate the shroud against anyone who not a kid, okay let's got through it:

Mizuki - Activates RnY
Iruka - Activates RnY
Eibsu - Activates RnY
Kakash - Actives RnY
Demon Bro 1 - Actives RnY
Demon Bro 2 - Activates RnY
Zabuza - Activates RnY
Haku - Activates RnY
Waraji - Activates RnY
Zori - Activates RnY
Kurunai - Activates RnY
Asuma - Activates RnY
Anko - Activates RnY
Shigure - Activates RnY
Kabuto Activates RnY
Baki - Activates RnY
Kotetsu Activates RnY
Hayate - Activates RnY
Genma - Activates RnY
Misumi - Activates RnY
Yoroi - Activates RnY
Iwashi - Activates RnY
Gai - Activates RnY
Jiraiya - Activates RnY
Ibiki - Activates RnY
Choza - Activates RnY
Inoichi - Activates RnY
Shikaku - Activates RnY
Haishi - Activates RnY
Hizashi - Activates RnY
Yūgao Uzuki - Activates RnY
Sajin  - Activates RnY
Chouseki  - Activates RnY
Gantetsu - Activates RnY
Shizune - Activates RnY
Tsunade - Activates RnY
Kimi - Activates RnY
Raidou - Activates RnY
Mokume Kunugi - Activates RnY
Kaito Dan - Activates RnY
Sakon -  Activates RnY
Ukon -  Activates RnY
Kidomaru -  Activates RnY
Jirobo -  Activates RnY
Tayuya -  Activates RnY
Uchiha Inabi - Activates RnY
Uchiha Yashiro -  Activates RnY
Uchiha Fugaku -  Activates RnY
Funeno Daikoku -  Activates RnY
Houshou -  Activates RnY
Kitou -  Activates RnY
Migaki - Activates RnY
Kusushi - Activates RnY
Mibu Shinobu - Activates RnY
Mogusa - - Activates RnY
Kisame -  Activates RnY
Itachi -  Activates RnY

If we count Gaiden -
Sumashi - Activates RnY
Higashi Shibito - Activates RnY
Mimura Hamaki - Activates RnY
Mahiro - Activates RnY
Taiseki - Activates RnY
Kakko - Activates RnY
Minato - Activates RnY

Depending on how the gauntlet is set up Ei could end up having to fight all or most of these characters before fighting Hiruzen or Gaara

That ignoring fodder, which you don't say to ignore in your OP. That's also discriminating based on age, which is a silly notion considering the first thing were told in the manga is that there can be characters younger than Naruto and stronger than Kakashi. This is also ignoring different incarnations of characters like CE-Kakashi vs WA-Kakashi. This is also ignoring Bijuu. And that's only the ones I can think of off the top of my head or quick search; probably missing someone

So yeah ridiculous sir just plain ridiculous


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## Rocky (May 10, 2014)

Before I address that: why does Raikage have to deactivate Raiton no Yori every time he scores a kill? There is no resting period mentioned in the OP, meaning the fights are continuous. If he activates the shroud and one-shots Mizuki, Iruka is going to pop up and v1 Ē is just going to one-shot him too. Those two fights would take seconds.


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## Turrin (May 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Before I address that: why does Raikage have to deactivate Raiton no Yori every time he scores a kill? There is no resting period mentioned in the OP, meaning the fights are continuous. If he activates the shroud and one-shots Mizuki, Iruka is going to pop up and v1 Ē is just going to one-shot him too. Those two fights would take seconds.


Except that's not how a gauntlet is commonly understood in the NBD. It's understood that each match happens consecutively, but without any characters being able to use Jutsu prior to the match.


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## Sans (May 10, 2014)

He didn't use Raiton no Yoroi against Zetsu. Someone more threatening than pretty much everyone on that list, and in a situation Ei didn't have to conserve chakra.

Everyone on that list except for Itachi, Gai, Kisame and Kakashi are going to get murderised by base Ei at match start, and those four go down in less than a minute to SSJ Ei,.


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## Rocky (May 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Except that's not how a gauntlet is commonly understood in the NBD. It's understood that each match happens consecutively, but without any characters being able to use Jutsu prior to the match.



There doesn't seem to be a common definition of gauntlet. Most of them are different. I'm just letting you know how I originally intended the thread to be set up. Sorry you misunderstood. 

Kom brings up a good point, though.


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## Turrin (May 10, 2014)

@Rocky

Here's what I think. I think you made the OP quickly without putting much thought into what kind of answers you wanted to get and how to get those answers. The result being a very confusing OP, that does not incite from posters the type of response you wanted. I came in here thinking this was a standard NBD gauntlet where Ei ran through a ton of matches and we were suppose to list the name of any character who has a chance to win. Apparently that's not what you want, which is fine, and you could simply clarify your OP. However what is not fine is bashing someone because they came away with a different interpretation of your guild lines due to their lack of clarity. I think you should at least be able to appreciate why you were wrong in that regard. The rest of this, I don't really feel like delving into anymore, because I am still not sure what exactly you want the guidelines of this match to be. What is the order of matches, how the knowledge stipulation will effect Ei's decisions, the starting distance, etc... are all things that I believe need to be clarified extensively before anyone is going to be able to come to a coherent conclusion at this point.


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## Sans (May 10, 2014)

Yeah this is all Rocky's fault.

Face it man, you never progressed beyond your days of thinking Haku > Itachi.


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## Rocky (May 10, 2014)

I wonder if thinking Haku would beat Sharingan-less Itachi is worse than thinking Preskip Gaara could beat Raikage. That's a tough one.


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## trance (May 10, 2014)

I'm still baffled at Turrin thinking old Hiruzen and pre-TS Gaara have a chance against Ei, based on *feats*.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I wonder if thinking Haku would beat Sharingan-less Itachi is worse than thinking Preskip Gaara could beat Raikage. That's a tough one.



From bad to worse :

"Konan > Itachi" - Turrin started out his career with that one.

"Haku > Itachi"


"Preskip Gaara > Raikage"



"No one except Rikoodu Sennin can defeat The Sannin, and even RS doesn't have perfect odds."

Probably the last one is as worse it can get.


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## trance (May 10, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> "No one except Rikoodu Sennin can defeat The Sannin, and even RS doesn't have perfect odds."



I have a feeling this one might have been when Pein was still seen as standing as the strongest of Naruto and Jiraiya gave him some trouble.


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## Rocky (May 10, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> I have a feeling this one might have been when Pein was still seen as standing as the strongest of Naruto and Jiraiya gave him some trouble.



Post Jubito arc.


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## Veracity (May 10, 2014)

The supreme commander of the Allied Shinobi AllIance losing to PTS Gaara... That's just to ridiculous. That's actually worse then the Sannin> So6p considering he was taking into consideration: Tsunade, Sage Jirayia, Oro, Sage Hashirama, BM Minato, Hiruzen, and BM Minato. And then BM Minato Bjuii cloaking eveyone.


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## trance (May 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Post Jubito arc.





For shame, Turrin.


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## Rocky (May 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Well considering you were the one saying Haku would beat Itachi and I actually thought that claim was ludicrous....well I really don't even know what to say.



I know that. 

I remember that thread very well.



> And I remember when you said Sakon/Ukon > Itachi
> 
> I mean if were just making shit up.



He was talking to me.


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## Turrin (May 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I know that.
> 
> I remember that thread very well.


Oops my bad, then I just assumed he was making up BS, like all the other times.



Likes boss said:


> The supreme commander of the Allied Shinobi AllIance losing to PTS Gaara... That's just to ridiculous. That's actually worse then the* Sannin> So6p* considering he was taking into consideration: Tsunade, Sage Jirayia, Oro, Sage Hashirama, BM Minato, Hiruzen, and BM Minato. And then BM Minato Bjuii cloaking eveyone.


And you know actually never said that....


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## Veracity (May 11, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Oops my bad, then I just assumed he was making up BS, like all the other times.
> 
> 
> And you know actually never said that....



Funny how you scroll past all the other debaters literally dicking on you, and refer to my post when I was actually trying to defend you in a sense. 

Anyway you stated that the Sage might be able to beat the Sannin. Meaning that they can go back and forth in a battle. I guess it's not outright staying they are superior, but it's kinda seems like it's hinted at.


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## Turrin (May 11, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Funny how you scroll past all the other debaters literally dicking on you, and refer to my post when I was actually trying to defend you in a sense.
> /QUOTE]
> That's why I bothered with your post, because I thought there might be some hope for you.
> 
> ...


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## Sans (May 11, 2014)

Is there no hope for me, Turrin?


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 11, 2014)

No Komnenos, you've fallen onto the path of darkness ​​


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## Alex Payne (May 11, 2014)

I respect people who stand firm in their beliefs and opinions. And don't conform to majority's views when pressured/in minority. But when you have like 97% of people telling you that you are wrong... and many of those people frequently disagree with each other)... maybe there is actually something wrong with your views? Why do you think your posts garner that kind of reaction, Turrin?


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## Risyth (May 11, 2014)

Sorry, but did this stomp thread really necessitate 100 posts?


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## Turrin (May 11, 2014)

alex payne said:


> I respect people who stand firm in their beliefs and opinions. And don't conform to majority's views when pressured/in minority. But when you have like 97% of people telling you that you are wrong... and many of those people frequently disagree with each other)... maybe there is actually something wrong with your views? Why do you think your posts garner that kind of reaction, Turrin?


97% of people is an exaggeration. It's more like 1 person and I start having a discussion, and than the usual suspects come out of the wood work, because they have an axe to grind or are simply trolls. From the quality of their posts alone your can tell what their real agenda is.


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## Ghost (May 11, 2014)

/edge **


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