# Berserk vs Claymore?



## handofjustice (Aug 25, 2009)

Which is the better Manga?


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## Demon_Soichiro (Aug 25, 2009)

Berserk ,no contest


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## Tempproxy (Aug 25, 2009)

Claymore is Berserk for pussies.




Yes I am joking no I dont hate Claymore its actually a preety decent manga but Berserk is better.


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## Ennoea (Aug 25, 2009)

No contest. First few chapters of Berserk alone solo Claymore.


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## Fran (Aug 25, 2009)

I enjoyed the Claymore manga more than I did Berserk. 
I can't fault either for anything major.
Except for Berserk's fanboys.


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## Yαriko (Aug 25, 2009)

I like claymore more..but berserk is awesome as well


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## The Imp (Aug 25, 2009)

Berserk.

Why does the OP make so many bad threads?


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## Fran (Aug 25, 2009)

kurono76767 said:


> Berserk.
> 
> Why does the OP make so many bad threads?



This is almost as good as the One Piece vs Naruto vs Bleach thread.


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## Nimloth (Aug 25, 2009)

Both are good but I enjoy Claymore more.


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## The Imp (Aug 25, 2009)

Mattaru said:


> This is almost as good as the One Piece vs Naruto vs Bleach thread.



It wouldn't be as bad if the guy didn't make one almost every single day.


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## Watchman (Aug 25, 2009)

Berserk is better.


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## handofjustice (Aug 25, 2009)

kurono76767 said:


> It wouldn't be as bad if the guy didn't make one almost every single day.



Oh you spoilt sport you, come on darling my threads are harmless and on most occasions fun.


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## p-lou (Aug 25, 2009)

i love these threads


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## Suigetsu (Aug 25, 2009)

Claymore has lulz and its badass.

Berserk has monsters raping pretty and little girls.

Thus Claymore its more Enjoyable,And that is why it sells more.


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## Lightysnake (Aug 25, 2009)

Berserk is the most overrated manga ever.


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## Cerō2 (Aug 25, 2009)

_Berserk, but claymore is not bad._


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## The Imp (Aug 25, 2009)

handofjustice said:


> Oh you spoilt sport you, come on darling my threads are harmless and on most occasions fun.



no they are bad and a waste of space


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## MdB (Aug 25, 2009)

handofjustice said:


> Oh you spoilt sport you, come on darling my threads are harmless and on most occasions fun.



begging for negging

and claymore is just boring


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## seaofjealousy (Aug 25, 2009)

Both are good.

No point on being an idiot and liking one more than the other.


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## cbus05 (Aug 25, 2009)

I'm a bigger fan of claymore.


Berserk is definitely good, but at times it almost seems to be too intensely focused on gore and rape.


I like how there is still a whole lot of mystery involved in claymore. Nothing against Berserk, but there isn't a ton of mystery to it.


I think claymore suffers slightly from being monthly. It would be interesting to compare the two after they're finished.


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## Gallant (Aug 25, 2009)

lol plagued by hiatus. I enjoy Claymore more.



Lightysnake said:


> Berserk is the most overrated manga ever.



I'm surprised the Berserk fanboys haven't mauled you yet.


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## Hellrasinbrasin (Aug 25, 2009)

Femto would so own Claymores sweet ass ; AND ALL WILL KNOW THAT FEMTO IS SUPREME RULER OF THE MANGA WORLDS


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## Lord Yu (Aug 25, 2009)

Berserk is better. More intricate plot, more complex characters, majestic artwork. Sure the gore can be a turn off but really this is no contest. Claymore is not even the same league. I like Claymore but it's nowhere near Berserk in quality or scope.


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## Tempproxy (Aug 25, 2009)

Suigetsu said:


> Claymore has lulz and its badass.
> 
> Berserk has monsters raping pretty and little girls.
> 
> *Thus Claymore its more Enjoyable,And that is why it sells more*.



Orly and there I was thinking it was due to its target audience been more broader.


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## Gene (Aug 25, 2009)

Suigetsu said:


> Claymore has lulz and its badass.
> 
> Berserk has monsters raping pretty and little girls.
> 
> Thus Claymore its more Enjoyable,And that is why it sells more.


Claymore has lulz?


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## The Imp (Aug 25, 2009)

Gallant said:


> lol plagued by hiatus. I enjoy Claymore more.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm surprised the Berserk fanboys haven't mauled you yet.



Berserk isn't the most overrated manga ever but it is terribly overrated.


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## Tempproxy (Aug 25, 2009)

cbus05 said:


> I'm a bigger fan of claymore.
> 
> 
> *Berserk is definitely good, but at times it almost seems to be too intensely focused on gore and rape.*
> ...




This is just recycled babble people tend to use, I am guessing you might not even read Berserk. There is far far far far more to Berserk than just "gore and rape", besides if we wanted to really examine things Claymore can be viewed as a poor mans Berserk as it has similar resounding plot points e.g Claire hunting an old nemesis who is some what of a demi-god,Abyssal Ones A.K.A Apostles as well as the Medieval setting. Oh and dont even get me started on that Guts wannabe Raki.


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## Wuzzman (Aug 25, 2009)

Gallant said:


> lol plagued by hiatus. I enjoy Claymore more.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm surprised the Berserk fanboys haven't mauled you yet.



Unlike the cough piece fanboys we are both over the age of 16 and act like it. No need for bashing someone for liking a good manga over berserk. Berserk is better but its heavy and can be badly misinterpreted by people used to reading simpler manga.


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## Kind of a big deal (Aug 25, 2009)

Definately Berserk over Claymore, there's a limit to the amount of fragile looking super powerful girls with interchangeable appearances a man can take. Most of these Claymores you can only tell them apart with their hair styles, and I'm not terribly impressed by the way the artist draws men in general.

Claymore to me is a smaller less hard core Berserk where all the characters are replaced by thin girls. Still pretty good, but just not _as_ good.


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## Nimloth (Aug 25, 2009)

Wuzzman said:


> Unlike the cough piece fanboys we are both over the age of 16 and act like it. No need for bashing someone for liking a good manga over berserk. Berserk is better but its heavy and can be badly misinterpreted by people used to reading simpler manga.



Actually I find Berserk fans to be some of the most rabid childish fanboys going they even rival the Bleach/Naruto fans at times.


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## Hagen (Aug 25, 2009)

This is like comparing urine with Pepsi. Berserk being the Pepsi

truly, Berserk one and ONLY flaw is the hiatus

the gore and rape stuff is a BEAUTIFUL thing pek



Nimloth said:


> Actually I find Berserk fans to be some of the most rabid childish fanboys going they even rival the Bleach/Naruto fans at times.


nothing can compete with OPtards


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## Cibo (Aug 25, 2009)

Claymore is good, but Berserk is simply better, at least for me.


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## Watchman (Aug 25, 2009)

seaofjealousy said:


> Both are good.
> 
> No point on being an idiot and liking one more than the other.



One can say both are good and still prefer one over the other...



Lord Yu said:


> Berserk is better. More intricate plot, more complex characters, majestic artwork. Sure the gore can be a turn off but really this is no contest. Claymore is not even the same league. I like Claymore but it's nowhere near Berserk in quality or scope.



This.


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## RivFader (Aug 25, 2009)

Berserk.
Read the last few chapters and then realize that nothing in Vlaymore can ever top that 

But seriously: From what i've seen from Claymore it's a good manga. It's just not on the level of Berserk. But the same goes for 99% of all mangas out there.


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## Lightysnake (Aug 25, 2009)

It's hilarious people call Claymore the poor man's Berserk based on them being set in a medieval fantasy world with a revenge theme (never mind Claymore actually deconstructing that theme while Berserk plays it straight). I suppose Berserk invented dark fantasy. And revenge. There's also little to Berserk but the gore and rape, which it has way too much of anyways. The plot's become thin and while the characters are good, Miura not giving a damn about them in ages leaves them more than a bit screwed over. the philosophical 'themes' are paper thin and have been before and way better. There is no 'depth' there, only absurd pretentious attempts to inject the series with depth interspersed between horse rapes. 

Berserk is overrated. It's a 'decent' series at best that people adore because it's got good art, a 'badass' protagonist and lots of violence and rape. There's a ton of needless padding, painfully stupid bits with all the subtlety of an anvil that you can just see Miura screaming how deep he is when he's writing. Berserk was great through the flashback saga (before that it was generic as hell and the fact Miura had no idea what he was doing with the plot or characters shows)  The philosophy is terrible and the series is probably never going to be finished because Kentaro Miura is too lazy to do his job.


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## Lightysnake (Aug 25, 2009)

RivFader said:


> Berserk.
> Read the last few chapters and then realize that nothing in Vlaymore can ever top that
> 
> But seriously: From what i've seen from Claymore it's a good manga. It's just not on the level of Berserk. But the same goes for 99% of all mangas out there.



The last few chapters...you mean the ones where most of it is just Miura showing off his art, bringing tiny development to a plodding plot, killing someone off everyone was sick of three years ago after wasting space to give him a backstory nobody cared to hear, in a massively convoluted and idiotic way while delaying an already delayed destination and drawing out the plot even more?



> Berserk is better. More intricate plot, more complex characters, majestic artwork. Sure the gore can be a turn off but really this is no contest. Claymore is not even the same league. I like Claymore but it's nowhere near Berserk in quality or scope.


The plot of Berserk is as deep as a cup of coffee. The characters' 'complexity' is a joke save for Guts-depending on how the plot needs him to act at the time, Griffith, Serpico and Farnese. The artwork is really all Berserk has going for it because without it, few people would hold it in nearly as high esteem.


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## Randomaxe (Aug 25, 2009)

I've paid for both of these mangas, and I'm only to volume 12 of Beserk, but so far Claymore has been more engaging and enjoyable to read than Berserk. these two mangas have very little in common, but it appears some need to claim Claymore as Berserk's step child. While Berserk reads like a Tarantino movie, the first 2 vol. was slow and did little to make me care for Guts and his purpose, while the first chapter of Claymore made you want to know more about what they were, and why they existed. I do like Berserk very much, but some of the claims of Greatest seem exaggerated.


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## VoDe (Aug 25, 2009)

Claymore just doesnt have something that Berserk has, Claymore is good but Berserk is simply better.


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## Tempproxy (Aug 25, 2009)

Lightysnake said:


> It's hilarious people call Claymore the poor man's Berserk based on them being set in a medieval fantasy world with a revenge theme (never mind Claymore actually deconstructing that theme while Berserk plays it straight). I suppose Berserk invented dark fantasy. And revenge. There's also little to Berserk but the gore and rape, which it has way too much of anyways. The plot's become thin and while the characters are good, Miura not giving a damn about them in ages leaves them more than a bit screwed over. the philosophical 'themes' are paper thin and have been before and way better. There is no 'depth' there, only absurd pretentious attempts to inject the series with depth interspersed between horse rapes.



Anyone who has reads both series would be able to pick up comparable themes between both mangas that extend far beyond the period and revenge theme. Perhaps the mangaka of Claymore was subconsciously influenced by Miura both you don?t have to look far to seem where comparisons might come in. Oh and I am extremely curious as to how Claymore has deconstructed the whole revenge theme common in a lot of fiction? What I see is antagonist kills protagonist loved one/teacher that very act then becomes the catalyst to the Protagonist setting of on there journey same old same old. Again another one claiming that Berserk is all about gore and rape a line that seems to be used a lot by some I am guessing not everyone who criticises Berserk reads it. The plots become thin? You what seriously do you read the manga? Sure due to the constant breaks you might say its  moving slow but the plot is advancing none the less.


Lightysnake said:


> *Berserk is overrated. It's a 'decent' series at best that people adore because it's got good art, a 'badass' protagonist and lots of violence and rape.* There's a ton of needless padding, painfully stupid bits with all the subtlety of an anvil that you can just see Miura screaming how deep he is when he's writing. Berserk was great through the flashback saga (before that it was generic as hell and the fact Miura had no idea what he was doing with the plot or characters shows)  The philosophy is terrible and the series is probably never going to be finished because Kentaro Miura is too lazy to do his job.



No I like it because of Guts epic struggle and the impact the past has on him as well as what may come in the future, call it wank or overrating all you want but I think Berserk storyline is epic and on a grand scale and during the golden age/eclipse arc I would go as far as to say that that particular story line rivals pieces of literature such as Macbeth..........simply epic.


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## Munken (Aug 25, 2009)

Yay another VS thread.


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## Tempproxy (Aug 25, 2009)

Lightysnake said:


> The last few chapters...you mean the ones where most of it is just Miura showing off his art, bringing tiny development to a plodding plot, killing someone off everyone was sick of three years ago after wasting space to give him a backstory nobody cared to hear, in a massively convoluted and idiotic way while delaying an already delayed destination and drawing out the plot even more?



A mangaka likes to be detailed so you fault him for it? Only a handful of chapters is released yearly so you cant expect him to bring huge developments to the plot. If we can fault anything about Berserk its the pace of the amount released yearly. If you are referring to Ganishka then your wrong on his backstory not been cared about. It was nice to see where his desires stem from and how he came to be an Apostle because that's a question I and many were inquiring about.



Lightysnake said:


> The plot of Berserk is as deep as a cup of coffee. The characters' 'complexity' is a joke save for Guts-depending on how the plot needs him to act at the time, Griffith, Serpico and Farnese. The artwork is really all Berserk has going for it because without it, few people would hold it in nearly as high esteem.



Yes Berserks plot is deep an epic tale of one mans' betrayal, love and quest for vengeance.


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## Lightysnake (Aug 25, 2009)

Tempproxy said:


> Anyone who has reads both series would be able to pick up comparable themes between both mangas that extend far beyond the period and revenge theme. Perhaps the mangaka of Claymore was subconsciously influenced by Miura both you don’t have to look far to seem where comparisons might come in.


They're both seeking a powerful enemy for revenge for different reasons, in different scenarios, with undoubtedly different outcomes. Claymore also deconstructed the revenge theme thanks to Priscilla's entire character and current status 

Again,. perhaps Berserk fans think Berserk really created these themes.


> Oh and I am extremely curious as to how Claymore has deconstructed the whole revenge theme common in a lot of fiction? What I see is antagonist kills protagonist loved one/teacher that very act then becomes the catalyst to the Protagonist setting of on there journey same old same old.


The monster Clare wants to kill simply doesn't exist. Priscilla's an amnesiac child who can't remember what she's gone and is letting herself decay to avoid hurting any one. Clare's entire journey to get stronger for revenge to kill a powerful monster is ultimately futile because there's no monster to kill.
Grifftih has become plain boring as Femto now. He's lost all of the character he used to have in favor of being Mr. Evil Manipulation. Seen it done. Seen it done better.


> Again another one claiming that Berserk is all about gore and rape a line that seems to be used a lot by some I am guessing not everyone who criticises Berserk reads it. The plots become thin? You what seriously do you read the manga? Sure due to the constant breaks you might say its  moving slow but the plot is advancing none the less.


Given I commented on Ganishka, one could guess I read the manga. Yeah, the manga practically devotes itself to sex and gore at times (hi, trolls) and the plot's become absurdly thin and drawn out. Aspects on it haven't been touched for years and others were wholly predictable (Griffith turning the entire situation to his benefit by making the collective of humanity idiots...who'd have guessed...)
What is the 'depth' of this plot? Can we wait to see what comes of this merger before we gush about how Miura's a genius? I see no reason to believe it won't be plodding and drawn out like the last ten volumes or so.
And the plot of Berserk advancing? Guts is no closer to Griffith than before. If anything, Miura's created a new world to write more in.
Did I mention this series will never finish?



> No I like it because of Guts epic struggle and the impact the past has on him as well as what may come in the future, call it wank or overrating all you want but I think Berserk storyline is epic and on a grand scale and during the golden age/eclipse arc I would go as far as to say that that particular story line rivals pieces of literature such as Macbeth..........simply epic.



this is how I know to dismiss you. Comparing Berserk to one of WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE'S greatest tragedies Are you joking? This is beyond fanboyism. 

Guts doesn't have an 'epic struggle,' he has a revenge plot that occasionally dips to remind us how he's immune from fate (With more mediocre psychobabble of course). Grand scale? Most of it was pretty minor. The only thing called 'Grand Scale' could be the Kushan plot that served as nothing more than a plot device for Griffith to get more power.

So, yeah. When we call Berserk's laughable excuse for philosophizing a match for Shakespeare? We know we won't be taken seriously.


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## Moon (Aug 25, 2009)

Why not just make a flame forum where all of these threads can be made? These types of threads are hardly discussion based.

Besides that I have to say Beserk is the better manga but I find Claymore more enjoyable. Take that whichever way you want, they are both good.


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## Lightysnake (Aug 25, 2009)

Tempproxy said:


> A mangaka likes to be detailed so you fault him for it? Only a handful of chapters is released yearly so you cant expect him to bring huge developments to the plot. If we can fault anything about Berserk its the pace of the amount released yearly. If you are referring to Ganishka then your wrong on his backstory not been cared about. It was nice to see where his desires stem from and how he came to be an Apostle because that's a question I and many were inquiring about.


Examine your first sentence and then the second one. The man likes to draw detailed *At the expense of pace and story*. I don't CARE about seeing how beautiful Griffith is with all the reactions from every individual soldier and the detail on each of Ganishka's tentacles. If he would actually improve his pacing, those handful of chapters would mean something more. In fact, he could be REALLY dynamic and actually release MORE than a handful. Oh, wait, did I assume we weren't talking about an unmotivated hack? 
And again: Nobody cared about Gaishka's backstory. It was pointless, ham handedly thrown in just like his "It was always my dream to turn into light!" 
And we knew how he became an Apostle: used the Behelit. A throwaway line of dialogue would have achieved the same end. It served to waste space.




> Yes Berserks plot is deep an epic tale of one mans' betrayal, love and quest for vengeance.


It's a shame vengeance quests it's been done before and after. And better. Berserk brought nothing new to the table beyond gore and 'badassery.' And attempts at being deep that fell on their face.


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## KLoWn (Aug 25, 2009)

Berserk     .


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## hgfdsahjkl (Aug 25, 2009)

I like those threads 

imo berserk is much better,but claymore is good too

can I make a
vagabond vs berserk thread 


*Spoiler*: __


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## Munken (Aug 25, 2009)

HEY HEY

we need a naruto vs one piece vs bleach thread, don't think that has been done before.


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## hgfdsahjkl (Aug 25, 2009)

that one
I tricked someone to revive it


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## Tempproxy (Aug 25, 2009)

Lightysnake said:


> They're both seeking a powerful enemy for revenge for different reasons, in different scenarios, with undoubtedly different outcomes. Claymore also deconstructed the revenge theme thanks to Priscilla's entire character and current status
> 
> Again,. perhaps Berserk fans think Berserk really created these themes.
> 
> ...



If your able to call out Berserk before the entirety of the plot is finished then allow me to do the same with Claymore. As you yourself pointed out Priscilla's current status keyword been current, how do you know it wont revert back to her being the cold blooded killer she clearly was when she attacked Teresa? Yes Griffith betrayed his allies but closure has not been given on that particular aspect same with Priscilla both antagonist could do a 360 before their manga's end.


Lightysnake said:


> Given I commented on Ganishka, one could guess I read the manga. Yeah, the manga practically devotes itself to sex and gore at times (hi, trolls) and the plot's become absurdly thin and drawn out. Aspects on it haven't been touched for years and others were wholly predictable (Griffith turning the entire situation to his benefit by making the collective of humanity idiots...who'd have guessed...)
> What is the 'depth' of this plot? Can we wait to see what comes of this merger before we gush about how Miura's a genius? I see no reason to believe it won't be plodding and drawn out like the last ten volumes or so.
> And the plot of Berserk advancing? Guts is no closer to Griffith than before. If anything, Miura's created a new world to write more in.
> Did I mention this series will never finish?



When someone makes a simple comment about a series without elaborating in regards to the statement I don’t think I am at fault for questioning their legitimacy and whether they actually read the series. No the Manga does not devote itself to sex, there are the odd rapes here and there but to state that any particular section or arc is dedicated to sex is absurd perhaps your simply exaggerating. Griffith is a part of a collective group of demi-god's heaven forbid his able to manipulate a bunch of humans  of course its predictable since he and the god hand seemingly have the upper hand (No pun intended) it was no more predictable than me predicting some where down the line that Clare and Priscilla will duke it out while a torn Raki tries to stop them.


Lightysnake said:


> this is how I know to dismiss you. Comparing Berserk to one of WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE'S greatest tragedies Are you joking? This is beyond fanboyism.
> 
> Guts doesn't have an 'epic struggle,' he has a revenge plot that occasionally dips to remind us how he's immune from fate (With more mediocre psychobabble of course). Grand scale? Most of it was pretty minor. The only thing called 'Grand Scale' could be the Kushan plot that served as nothing more than a plot device for Griffith to get more power.
> 
> So, yeah. When we call Berserk's laughable excuse for philosophical diatribe a match for Shakespeare? We know we won't be taken seriously.



I whole heartedly stand by my statement in regards to the golden age arc been as epic as Macbeth, I guess to each his own but the Golden age arc and in particular its ending is extremely tragic and deserves the praise I am laying upon it. Look I am not one for long internet tirades (lazy) and often find them boring so will close on this its clear we both hold different opinions about both series and its probably best we just leave it as that. even though your opinion is wrong


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## KidTony (Aug 25, 2009)

Claymore is horribly written tripe with some good arts here and there.

Berserk is the epitome of awesomeness and epicness.


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## Lightysnake (Aug 25, 2009)

Tempproxy said:


> If your able to call out Berserk before the entirety of the plot is finished then allow me to do the same with Claymore. As you yourself pointed out Priscilla's current status keyword been current, how do you know it wont revert back to her being the cold blooded killer she clearly was when she attacked Teresa? Yes Griffith betrayed his allies but closure has not been given on that particular aspect same with Priscilla both antagonist could do a 360 before their manga's end.


Commenting on *What's been done so far* is a bit different, no? We know WHY Griffith did it, he and Guts have spoken about it, he has no remorse and he's a manipulative monster. 
Your point here hinges on trying to call what will happen as opposed to what has, which is what we're going on. 



> When someone makes a simple comment about a series without elaborating in regards to the statement I don?t think I am at fault for questioning their legitimacy and whether they actually read the series. No the Manga does not devote itself to sex, there are the odd rapes here and there but to state that any particular section or arc is dedicated to sex is absurd perhaps your simply exaggerating.


Yeah? How many people in the manga have sex and rape linked to their backstory? How many of the monsters sexually assault women? Hell, Griffith raping Caska was an important plot point for the future. Really, name me a grown woman in Berserk and there's a pretty decent chance there's been a rape or an attempted rape on her. Farnese and Caska stand out. Let alone the numerous random women who are raped to throw drama in. Need to REALLY hate Wyald? Have him rape the sweet peasant girl. Trolls are monsters? Look at them going rape happy. Guts's issues? Raped as a kid. Caska? Attempted rape. Griffith? Sold his body....this goes on.


> Griffith is a part of a collective group of demi-god's heaven forbid his able to manipulate a bunch of humans  of course its predictable since he and the god hand seemingly have the upper hand (No pun intended) it was no more predictable than me predicting some where down the line that Clare and Priscilla will duke it out while a torn Raki tries to stop them.


Ahh, the tu quoque, gotta love it. See, there's a difference between being able to call what might be one of the most *crucial points of the story* being led to and calling it because the author is utterly transparent. 
Yeah, actually it was quite a bit more predictable. 



> I whole heartedly stand by my statement in regards to the golden age arc been as epic as Macbeth, I guess to each his own but the Golden age arc and in particular its ending is extremely tragic and deserves the praise I am laying upon it. Look I am not one for long internet tirades (lazy) and often find them boring so will close on this its clear we both hold different opinions about both series and its probably best we just leave it as that. even though your opinion is wrong


There's little by way of opinion here: If you think anything in Berserk stands up to one of the greatest pieces of literature in over five hundred years, then you are wrong. The Golden Age was the only part of Berserk that could be considered grea,t but that was a VERY long time ago. But on par with Macbeth? Macbeth dealt with its themes, its characters and its story far better (Unfortunate side effect of the name of one of Scotland's greatest kings ruined) than anything in Berserk. Really, the 'Walking Shadow' speech alone is dozens of times better and deeper than any of the dialogue in Berserk.


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## Lightysnake (Aug 25, 2009)

KidTony said:


> Claymore is horribly written tripe with some good arts here and there.
> 
> Berserk is the epitome of awesomeness and epicness.



It's like a parody of a typical bad response here


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## Han Solo (Aug 25, 2009)

Berserk may be horribly overrated, but it's still better than Claymore.

Claymore suffers from utterly boring characters. It's pretty decently written, but, really, most of the characters are just...

Well, Riful and Isley were pretty cool.


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## Lightysnake (Aug 25, 2009)

I wouldn't call Clare, Helen, Deneve, Jean, Raki as of now, Ophelia, any of the Abyssals, Miria, Cynthia, Uma or many of the others boring. There's nice development and a good deal of them are nicely well written.


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## Han Solo (Aug 25, 2009)

Lightysnake said:


> I wouldn't call Clare, Helen, Deneve, Jean, Raki as of now, Ophelia, any of the Abyssals, Miria, Cynthia, Uma or many of the others boring. There's nice development and a good deal of them are nicely well written.



Again, I'm not saying they are badly written.

I just find most of them boring.

But yeah, Ophelia was awesome aswell.


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## Muk (Aug 25, 2009)

lol vs thread are a waste of digital space


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## Lightysnake (Aug 25, 2009)

Han Solo said:


> Again, I'm not saying they are badly written.
> 
> I just find most of them boring.
> 
> But yeah, Ophelia was awesome aswell.



I also disagree they're boring...especially Helen and Deneve...and Clare.

Ilena was also awesome, forgot her. And Raphaela.


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## The Imp (Aug 25, 2009)

Clare is one of the most boring characters in Claymore. Most of the interesting characters got killed or are about to die.


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## Demon_Soichiro (Aug 25, 2009)

fawkin hell,u still compare them?


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## Lightysnake (Aug 25, 2009)

kurono76767 said:


> Clare is one of the most boring characters in Claymore. Most of the interesting characters got killed or are about to die.



How is Clare boring? We learn almost immediately she's now as emotionless as she appears.


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## The Imp (Aug 25, 2009)

Lightysnake said:


> How is Clare boring? We learn almost immediately she's now as emotionless as she appears.




You just said it. She is emotionless. Her personality is very lack lustre. What is so interesting about a quiet, angsty bitch.


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## Yoburi (Aug 25, 2009)

I have to say Teresa>Gutts she is just awesome.



kurono76767 said:


> Clare is one of the most boring characters in Claymore. Most of the interesting characters got killed or are about to die.



Ha! and i could say the same about Berseker after all griffith and Claska are more death than alive nothing that make them great characters survive the eclipse, all the Band of the Hawk are death save 2 guys and the rest don't even come close to there level.

Clare isn't perfect but she does her job she only lose to Gutts because the level of violence and gore in Berseker is insane making Gutts looking better than he really is since he can kill every chapter.


----------



## Lightysnake (Aug 25, 2009)

kurono76767 said:


> You just said it. She is emotionless. Her personality is very lack lustre. What is so interesting about a quiet, angsty bitch.



She ISN'T emotionless, it's a mask she puts on. We learn that VERY quickly. If we read beyond the first couple chapters. She hardly angsts a great deal either, and considering her life, that's pretty impressive.


----------



## Fran (Aug 25, 2009)

Teresa's death was equally as great as Griffith's betrayal. Meh. It's not on the same level of grandness, but invokes just as much empathy and shock.



kurono76767 said:


> You just said it. She is emotionless. Her personality is very lack lustre. What is so interesting about a quiet, angsty bitch.



Ah you must be referring to Gutt's enormous range of emotions.
Clare's a cool protagonist. Starts off as the underdog, has a pretty unique ability, and steals arms off people.
Likewise, Gutts is badass. 

Oh yes, one flaw I must point out, is the whole business with the Magical Loli in Berserk. I did not like that. One bit. 
And whilst we're here, Claymore

*Spoiler*: __ 



Isley suffered an ignominious death for such a great adversary and character


----------



## Lightysnake (Aug 25, 2009)

I'll give Guts some props, he does have a good bevy of emotions on occasions. On others, it's a mix of levels of rage.


----------



## seaofjealousy (Aug 25, 2009)

Watchman said:


> One can say both are good and still prefer one over the other...



Prefering one over the other is just a quick route to become a fanboy, you will see everything wrong on all the series except the one you like. Take this thread as an example of that, in all senses.


----------



## Muk (Aug 25, 2009)

i doubt berserk could beat isleys death 

most daring way to take out a villain like that, few author would do it, yagi did do it


----------



## Randomaxe (Aug 25, 2009)

You know some degenerate threw a stone and some of you are getting hot over it. These 2 mangas are really good. Has anybody seen the op's opinion on this? Another troll strikes again.


----------



## Hapayahapaya (Aug 25, 2009)

Are people really comparing Berserk to Claymore? Seriously? I mean, Claymore's alright, but wow.

Mozgus >>>> Any Claymore character.


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## Malumultimus (Aug 25, 2009)

Is this thread real or am I imagining it?

I like Claymore but Berserk is obviously better.

For me, Claymore's biggest fault is the art. Characters look damn ugly half the time. Which is sad considering 90% of the cast is the same character.


----------



## The Imp (Aug 25, 2009)

Mattaru said:


> Teresa's death was equally as great as Griffith's betrayal. Meh. It's not on the same level of grandness, but invokes just as much empathy and shock.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Where did i say Gutts had a vast array of emotions?


----------



## Lightysnake (Aug 25, 2009)

Hapayahapaya said:


> Are people really comparing Berserk to Claymore? Seriously? I mean, Claymore's alright, but wow.
> 
> Mozgus >>>> Any Claymore character.



Mozgus. Oh, you must mean the utterly generic inquisitor villain who served as little but a mouthpiece for Miura to shriek how awful the church is. 

Yeah, Berserk gets compared to Claymore, because some people aren't blinded by the art and recognize that it isn't better.


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## Graham Aker (Aug 25, 2009)

Berserk.

This thread is pointless.


----------



## OrochiGab (Aug 25, 2009)

Claymore manga is 100% better 

Teresa of The Faint Smile Solo Berserk!

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## p-lou (Aug 25, 2009)

jesus christ that camel toe


----------



## Lord Genome (Aug 25, 2009)

picture was all you needed to tell how much better berserk is

thanks


----------



## Midus (Aug 25, 2009)

I get the feeling that this thread would be so much better if we eliminated the posts of anyone who hasn't read both series up to where they're both currently at.


----------



## Nuzzie (Aug 25, 2009)

Lord Genome said:


> picture was all you needed to tell how much better berserk is
> 
> thanks



i had the exact opposite reaction


----------



## Necro?sthete (Aug 25, 2009)

I fail to see how any manga can be compared to Claymore.


----------



## KidTony (Aug 25, 2009)

^^^ I have. 

Claymore sucks. Badly. It's like a light, crappy version of Berserk.


----------



## Lightysnake (Aug 25, 2009)

Again, this is how we identify people who haven't read Claymore. They'll ride Miura's dick unto kingdom come while claiming Claymore's like the 'light' version, when apparently being dark fantasy with revenge as a theme means you're copying something.

I swear, Some probably think Miura invented dark fantasy. And revenge. Wonder if they view Berserk as a poor man's Guin Saga. 

pray tell, what sucks about Claymore and what makes Berserk better, KidTony. Intelligent response if you can.


----------



## KidTony (Aug 25, 2009)

Norihiro Yagi is that you?


----------



## Lightysnake (Aug 25, 2009)

We're waiting. I'll remove the 'intelligent' from the criteria if it helps you.


----------



## Necro?sthete (Aug 26, 2009)

Lightysnake said:


> Again, this is how we identify people who haven't read Claymore. They'll ride Miura's dick unto kingdom come while claiming Claymore's like the 'light' version, when apparently being dark fantasy with revenge as a theme means you're copying something.
> 
> I swear, Some probably think Miura invented dark fantasy. And revenge. Wonder if they view Berserk as a poor man's Guin Saga.
> 
> pray tell, what sucks about Claymore and what makes Berserk better, KidTony. Intelligent response if you can.



+rep for posessing a cranium.


----------



## Graham Aker (Aug 26, 2009)

> Claymore sucks.


It doesn't. It's just not as good as Berserk.


----------



## Lightysnake (Aug 26, 2009)

It's at least as good.


----------



## KidTony (Aug 26, 2009)

But I'll tell you. Boring, and hackneyed plot, Bland, uninteresting one-dimensional characters, Inconsistent artwork, crappy shounen-esque fights, lack of direction in the storytelling, stupidly random over-complex plot twists, etc.

What makes Berserk better? That's kind of a retarded question because just about everything in Berserk makes it better. Awesome, well thought out plot, gray multi dimensional characters, awesome artwork, fantastic fights, and so on. Reading Berserk actually feels like you're reading as book, readying claymore feels like reading a second rate manga version of Berserk.


----------



## p-lou (Aug 26, 2009)

[YOUTUBE]RuMsbOrDinY[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Lightysnake (Aug 26, 2009)

KidTony said:


> But I'll tell you. Boring,


Wait, Berserk isn't boring despite the terrible pacing with chapters consisting of people staring at Griffith, but Claymore, with development every single chapter now is boring. Right.
Miura's dick? Ridden


> and hackneyed plot,


Are you stupid enough to believe a revenge plot is hackneyed but Berserk gets a past


> Bland, uninteresting one-dimensional characters,


Pray tell, how are they one dimensional? This strikes me as 'lazy reading,' given a good deal of them show different layers and depth


> Inconsistent artwork,


Oh, yeah, and Berserk, with its art shift later chapters, isn't inconsistent. Oh, evidence.


> crappy shounen-esque fights, lack of direction in the storytelling, etc.


You are a hypocrite. Claymore has 'Shonen-esque' fights Most of the fights are focused on tactics, teamwork and have a fast pace (So shonen-esque...
and lack of direction? And you're praising BERSERK? Tell me, how long have they been stuck on that boat Claymore's had a pretty clear direction, too...how does it lack direction in the storytelling now?


> What makes Berserk better? That's kind of a retarded question because just about everything in Berserk makes it better. Awesome, well thought out plot, gray multi dimensional characters, awesome artwork, fantastic fights, and so on. Reading Berserk actually feels like you're reading as book, readying claymore feels like reading a second rate manga version of Berserk.


You're a hypocrite or a fool.
Berserk's plot is hackneyed just as much, the characters tend to be deep as cups of coffee save for like...four of them, the artwork is just as inconsistent for a while, the fights are just as 'Shonen-esque' as Claymore...

Yeah, you're a fanboy. And a fool.


----------



## KidTony (Aug 26, 2009)

The only fanboy here is you, and a bitter one a that. Not my fault your favorite series is a crappy copypasta without two ounces of originality.


----------



## Lightysnake (Aug 26, 2009)

Still haven't provided how it's a 'copypasta' in the slightest beyond 'dark fantasy, revenge.' Go on, let's hear it. Wait...are there big swords?! MONSTERS! One of them turns into a centaur-like creature?! 

again...are you stupid enough to believe Berserk invented those? and how isn't Berserk a 'copypasta' of Guin saga?
Gonna have to say...GREAT response, with no refutations in the slightest! Cry more, fanbrat.


----------



## Watchman (Aug 26, 2009)

seaofjealousy said:


> Prefering one over the other is just a quick route to become a fanboy, you will see everything wrong on all the series except the one you like. Take this thread as an example of that, in all senses.



Only if you have the intellectual depth of a toddler. It's perfectly possible, and in fact _normal_ for people to be able to like something more than something else without going "Yep, that one I like less is wrong, wrong, wrong!"

Anyway, this thread gives me lulz. I _personally_ prefer Berserk, but the arguments given for why Berserk is OMGSOGREAT and Claymore shouldn't even be compared to it are pretty horrible ones.


----------



## Malumultimus (Aug 26, 2009)

Wow, are people really making these "Claymore > Berserk" posts?

For the first time, I actually feel _above_ this website in terms of general manga knowledge. Or maybe the times have just changed.


----------



## Yoburi (Aug 26, 2009)

KidTony said:


> But I'll tell you. Boring, and hackneyed plot, Bland, uninteresting one-dimensional characters, Inconsistent artwork, crappy shounen-esque fights, lack of direction in the storytelling, stupidly random over-complex plot twists, etc.
> 
> What makes Berserk better? That's kind of a retarded question because just about everything in Berserk makes it better. Awesome, well thought out plot, gray multi dimensional characters, awesome artwork, fantastic fights, and so on. Reading Berserk actually feels like you're reading as book, readying claymore feels like reading a second rate manga version of Berserk.



Some people bite this Flame/Troll threat like a fish 

Really the guy that made this shit thread don't give a damn about all this.

It's just like that threat Naruto vs. Berseker pure flame bait.


----------



## Lightysnake (Aug 26, 2009)

Watchman said:


> Only if you have the intellectual depth of a toddler. It's perfectly possible, and in fact _normal_ for people to be able to like something more than something else without going "Yep, that one I like less is wrong, wrong, wrong!"
> 
> Anyway, this thread gives me lulz. I _personally_ prefer Berserk, but the arguments given for why Berserk is OMGSOGREAT and Claymore shouldn't even be compared to it are pretty horrible ones.



Most of my posts here are mainly thanks to people like Kidtony wearing me down over the years when I say I merely think Berserk's 'good.' Thanks for this post, though


----------



## cbus05 (Aug 26, 2009)

Berserk IS good. The artwork is amazing, and the plot is decent. However, the plot is anything but intricate, awestriking. The manga goes by very slowly sometimes due to pointless fights and trying too hard to show off artwork.


The premise of the plot is pretty cool however, but aside from the golden age arc, there are very few twists, very few mysteries, and it seems to be lacking a bit of intrigue in it.



Claymore has much more simple art. I think berserk's art is almost too realistic at times. Some of the people look downright ugly, although on claymore's behalf the characters all look pretty much the same. Furthermore, personalities are better developed in berserk. 



As far as plot goes, claymore has the better plot. There simply seems to be more intrigue in it's plot and there is a lot more going on at once. It would be interesting to see what it would be like if the chapters came out weekly...


----------



## handofjustice (Aug 26, 2009)

Randomaxe said:


> You know some degenerate threw a stone and some of you are getting hot over it. These 2 mangas are really good. Has anybody seen the op's opinion on this? Another troll strikes again.



Jezzzzzzzzzz what is wrong with some people, quick to call other people a troll. I think your a troll so there, I havent given my opinion because I dont read either series and made this thread to get people's opinion so I could see which one I would start first.


----------



## Tayimus (Aug 26, 2009)

My God, was I laughing at this thread...  Why are people getting so riled up bout this topic?  Honestly, to each his fucking own.

Coming from someone who has *READ BOTH* manga, I have to say that, _to me_, Berserk is better.  And, yes, that _is_ a Claymore set you see I have.  Nevertheless, I still have to say I like Berserk better.



handofjustice said:


> Jezzzzzzzzzz what is wrong with some people, quick to call other people a troll. I think your a troll so there, I havent given my opinion because I dont read either series and made this thread to get people's opinion so I could see which one I would start first.



Sweet Mother, I didn't just read that... 

You haven't read either series?  If you wasn't a troll why didn't you just read Claymore since it's shorter!?  Doesn't that seem like a simple solution?  

Everyone who got even a bit angry with this thread got trolled.  Hard.


----------



## handofjustice (Aug 26, 2009)

Tayimus said:


> My God, was I laughing at this thread...  Why are people getting so riled up bout this topic?  Honestly, to each his fucking own.
> 
> Coming from someone who has *READ BOTH* manga, I have to say that, _to me_, Berserk is better.  And, yes, that _is_ a Claymore set you see I have.  Nevertheless, I still have to say I like Berserk better.
> 
> ...



Troll troll troll troll is it the in thing to call everyone and everything a troll..........fucking idiots, I didn?t start Claymore because I didn?t like the anime where in I liked the anime of Berserk. I was told by some people that manga version for both is better but seeing as how I was sceptical about one and not the other I thought it was best to ask people who had read both mangas. Hope I cleared things up you fucking morons, then again been the idiot that you are you will probably just continue to shout troll.


----------



## Tempproxy (Aug 26, 2009)

handofjustice said:


> Troll troll troll troll is it the in thing to call everyone and everything a troll..........fucking idiots, I didn?t start Claymore because I didn?t like the anime where in I liked the anime of Berserk. I was told by some people that manga version for both is better but seeing as how I was sceptical about one and not the other I thought it was best to ask people who had read both mangas. Hope I cleared things up you fucking morons, then again been the idiot that you are you will probably just continue to shout troll.



Woah calm down there bud, I personally don?t think you are trolling and think all the troll comments are uncalled for but if you make posts like this your bound to get banned or more people will turn against you.


----------



## Randomaxe (Aug 26, 2009)

handofjustice said:


> Troll troll troll troll is it the in thing to call everyone and everything a troll..........fucking idiots, I didn?t start Claymore because I didn?t like the anime where in I liked the anime of Berserk. I was told by some people that manga version for both is better but seeing as how I was sceptical about one and not the other I thought it was best to ask people who had read both mangas. Hope I cleared things up you fucking morons, then again been the idiot that you are you will probably just continue to shout troll.



Then You go to the manga recommendations thread and ask, you don't pit one fandom against another, that's why this is a *Troll* thread.
Your lack of involvement in this discussion makes me feel like your sitting back laughing at everybody.


----------



## Deathbringerpt (Aug 26, 2009)

I don´t see much good coming out of this thread just by the title.


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## Ennoea (Aug 26, 2009)

> As far as plot goes, claymore has the better plot. There simply seems to be more intrigue in it's plot and there is a lot more going on at once. It would be interesting to see what it would be like if the chapters came out weekly...



Compare the first 70 chapters of Berserk and Claymore and tell me what has more intrigue.


----------



## KidTony (Aug 26, 2009)

Arguing with someone that says claymore is better than Berserk is like arguing with a creationist...You just don't waste your time like that.


----------



## Ennoea (Aug 26, 2009)

People take Claymore way too seriously on this forum. Great manga but they see things that just aren't there.

*flameshield on*


----------



## Nimloth (Aug 26, 2009)

Looks like I was right those thread always bring out the Berserk fanclubs, I personally rate them about he same but what I will say is I think Berserk is extremely overrated.


----------



## KidTony (Aug 26, 2009)

Ennoea said:


> People take Claymore way too seriously on this forum. Great manga but they *see things that just aren't there.
> *
> *flameshield on*




like a plot, and interesting characters.


----------



## Yoburi (Aug 26, 2009)

Nimloth said:


> Looks like I was right those thread always bring out the Berserk fanclubs, I personally rate them about he same but what I will say is I think Berserk is extremely overrated.



Agreed this thread is just pointless if anyone says Claymore is better this tards won't stfu, i don't like huge mangas they take too much time thats why short ones like Claymore are better to my faste but i read Berserk and isn't that great to get angry because of this stupid thread.


----------



## Midus (Aug 26, 2009)

Nimloth said:


> Looks like I was right those thread always bring out the Berserk fanclubs, I personally rate them about he same but what I will say is I think Berserk is extremely overrated.




Really? I find the Claymore fanbase to be equally as annoying. None will ever beat out the OP fans, but Claymore fans can be just as agonizing to be around.


----------



## Graham Aker (Aug 26, 2009)

Claymore has no sex scenes, therefore Berserk is better.


----------



## Tayimus (Aug 26, 2009)

handofjustice said:


> Troll troll troll troll is it the in thing to call everyone and everything a troll..........fucking idiots, I didn?t start Claymore because I didn?t like the anime where in I liked the anime of Berserk. I was told by some people that manga version for both is better but seeing as how I was sceptical about one and not the other I thought it was best to ask people who had read both mangas. Hope I cleared things up you fucking morons, then again been the idiot that you are you will probably just continue to shout troll.



Wow.  I didn't expect you to get mad at the trolling comments.  Just as I didn't expect people to get mad over the topic itself.  Anyway, to answer what you said, the Claymore Anime breaks away from the Manga canon round episode 20.  If you didn't like anything before that, then you might as well go with Berserk.  Now , if you did like Claymore eps 1-20 then you'll love the manga since the story gets more intense after the Northern Campaign.  That would be round chap 60 or so.

But back to your original question...  Both manga are great, and yes there are similarities (I myself used to describe Claymore to my friends as Berserk mixed with Bleach, with girls thrown in. I know, stupid, right? ) but you'd have to be really dense to let thoughts like that still be in your head after reading both mangas.


----------



## Graham Aker (Aug 26, 2009)

To me, Claymore is Berserks moe little sister.


----------



## Hapayahapaya (Aug 26, 2009)

Lightysnake is a pretty good troll.


----------



## seaofjealousy (Aug 26, 2009)

Hapayahapaya said:


> Lightysnake is a pretty good troll.



It took you 6 pages to notice?


----------



## Deathbringerpt (Aug 26, 2009)

> I myself used to describe Claymore to my friends as Berserk mixed with Bleach, with girls thrown in. I know, stupid, right?



That´s a....horrible description of the series.

I personally don´t think that either fanbases (Around here and in internet in general) are bad, sure Claymore might be a little more "edgy" since it´s a little more mainstream than Berserk but at least in this place both of them pretty much keep to themselves without getting into people faces (Everything that the OP fanbase isn´t).

That said, Berserk is my number #1 of all time and personally, i think it´s superior to Claymore in pretty much every way. That said, Claymore is one of my favorite shonen out there as it´s a breath of fresh air (A shonen of the fantasy genre no less with nothing but a strong female cast? THAT´S UNPOSSIBLE!) from shonen mainstream much like Death Note (Although they don´t have anything to do with each other).


----------



## Lightysnake (Aug 26, 2009)

Hapayahapaya said:


> Lightysnake is a pretty good troll.



You have to love the Berserk people who think that someone not thinking Berserk's the best thing since sliced bread=troll. Really


----------



## Hollowized (Aug 26, 2009)

Both mangas are awesome, but I do think Berserk is better.



> i don't like huge mangas they take too much time thats why short ones like Claymore are better to my faste


lol, both mangas are still ongoing. It's just that Berserk has been around a lot longer than Claymore and therefore has more chapters at the moment. Not gonna bug you for thinking Claymore is better, but that was a fucking stupid reason


----------



## KidTony (Aug 27, 2009)

^^ You have to love the claymore people whose best arguments is accusing others of not reading the manga.


lol, trust me I read it. Took me some effort to get through that ridiculously boring tripe, but alas i overcame the urge to delete every single file from my hard drive and finished it. 

Then i wished i had, and had just re-read berserk instead.


----------



## Lightysnake (Aug 27, 2009)

KidTony said:


> ^^ You have to love the claymore people whose best arguments is accusing others of not reading the manga.
> 
> 
> lol, trust me I read it. Took me some effort to get through that ridiculously boring tripe, but alas i overcame the urge to delete every single file from my hard drive and finished it.
> ...



Yeah, you read it, despite knowing nothing about it, getting things wrong and only posting to make an ass of yourself. Whatever.

Hell, you couldn't even give one example


----------



## KidTony (Aug 27, 2009)

YOU DONT THINK CLAYMUR IS TEH AWESOM SO U NEVER READ IT N DA FIRST PLACE HUR HUR

I clearly can't fight that logic. Too much for me.


----------



## Tayimus (Aug 27, 2009)

Deathbringerpt said:


> That?s a....horrible description of the series.



Yeah, I know.  In my defense, that was when I was only 2-3 vols into the series, with everyone disappearing and reappearing behind someone else, I couldn't help but make such a comparison.  And make no mistake, my face was like this throughout the whole thing -- 



Lightysnake said:


> You have to love the Berserk people who think that someone not thinking Berserk's the best thing since sliced bread=troll. Really



Why is it that we're on opposite sides, you think Claymore is better and I think Berserk is better, yet I'm facepalming right along with you at some of the comments on here...?


----------



## iamthewalrus (Aug 27, 2009)

all of you need to stfu and go back to your series threads,  there really isn't a discussion here. and anyone using the "you must of not read it" thing should stop because most if not all us have read those two mangas

Personally, I thought claymore was the shit when I read it.  Then I read the Berserk and thought it was better.  I love both mangas, but right now I'd say berserk has the advantage (though claymore is above its peers).

and to people using the "its been done before" thing with berserk, could you not use the same argument with claymore?  They both use a lot of plot devices that are being repeatedly used again and again.  

looking forward to BOTH series' new chapters


----------



## cbus05 (Aug 27, 2009)

Ennoea said:


> Compare the first 70 chapters of Berserk and Claymore and tell me what has more intrigue.



I won't disagree with this, and I even mentioned it a bit that golden age plot was awesome with twists and a lot of highs/lows. 


But i'm looking at the broader picture here, and so far, Claymore's plot goes way beyond revenge. I'd even argue that revenge is a small part of the current plot as of right now, but in Berserk, thats all there has ever been outside of golden age.


----------



## mystictrunks (Aug 27, 2009)

cbus05 said:


> I won't disagree with this, and I even mentioned it a bit that golden age plot was awesome with twists and a lot of highs/lows.
> 
> 
> But i'm looking at the broader picture here, and so far, Claymore's plot goes way beyond revenge. I'd even argue that revenge is a small part of the current plot as of right now, but in Berserk, thats all there has ever been outside of golden age.



What's wrong with a great revenge story ? Having variety in a story doesn't mean much if the story isn't that good to begin with.


Besides Berserk has lots going on besides Gutts' and Skull Knight's revenge stuff. You have the Caska stuff, the impact of having more fantasy stuff on the world, Pip, Ishidori's history, and the rest of the Gutts Crew's sidestories and histories to go through.


----------



## Deathbringerpt (Aug 27, 2009)

cbus05 said:


> I'd even argue that revenge is a small part of the current plot as of right now, but in Berserk, thats all there has ever been outside of golden age.




If revenge was the only thing propelling Berserk´s plot on Guts´ side post-Golden Age, Caska would have been killed ages ago and Guts would have become an Apostle. 

You´re either oversimplifying like the Motherfucking Fist of the North Star here or the difficulty of Guts choosing what he wants to do and what he needs to do over the course of the story was lost on you. Plus each member of his party have their own reasons and objectives to follow Guts and are diverse, great characters in their own right.

Plus Griffith is also a main character of the series remember? The Millenium Falcon arc is exclusively his adventures in order to fulfill his dream and become king of Midland, which in turn involve a multitude of characters.


----------



## Tempproxy (Aug 27, 2009)

cbus05 said:


> I won't disagree with this, and I even mentioned it a bit that golden age plot was awesome with twists and a lot of highs/lows.
> 
> 
> But i'm looking at the broader picture here, and so far, *Claymore's plot goes way beyond revenge*. I'd even argue that revenge is a small part of the current plot as of right now, but in Berserk, thats all there has ever been outside of golden age.



Don?t know what Claymore some people are reading but its obviously not the same as me, Clare main purpose for living before meeting Raki was revenge hell besides her attempted reunion with Raki her main goal is still revenge. All the other stuff occurring are just breeze through's until she can meet her two objectives.


----------



## Lightysnake (Aug 27, 2009)

Don't be silly. There's the whole thing about destroying the Organization to free  the continent now. When we first met Clare she didn't give a damn about ordinary people and just followed orders, that's changed a lot.


----------



## Namikaze Kakashi (Aug 27, 2009)

On the level of epicness i would have to say that Berserck probably wins it. But to between these two great mangas say which one is better...i dont think it can be done since to me they are similar but at the same time very diferent! LOL (dont know how to explain it...)

Sayonara
NK


----------



## Just Blaze (Aug 27, 2009)

You want to know why Claymore isn't as good as Berserk?


*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __ 



Besides the zero foreshadowing of the Abyss Feeders, Isley died like a piece of crap.

And these comparision threads are stupid as fuck.


----------



## Eloking (Aug 27, 2009)

Claymore is good

Berserk is epic


----------



## Tempproxy (Aug 27, 2009)

Lightysnake said:


> Don't be silly. There's the whole thing about destroying the Organization to free  the continent now. When we first met Clare she didn't give a damn about ordinary people and just followed orders, that's changed a lot.



Oh yes from wanting revenge on Priscilla to now wanting revenge on the organisation, I can clearly see how it has strayed away from the theme of revenge.


----------



## MisterJB (Aug 27, 2009)

> What makes Berserk better? That's kind of a retarded question because just about everything in Berserk makes it better.



A retarded question gets a retarded answer.



> Awesome, well thought out plot,



Hearing over and over again how Griffith is great is not a plot. Gutts doesn't even have a plot, he just goes around killing Apostles and now, he has been trying to reach an island for how long?
Berserk's plot, tough entertaining, is predictable (you could see the Eclipse coming from a mile away and this is just an example) and realies heavily on gore and rape. 
Excuse me if guys cutting each others in half is not the only thing I want from a manga.
And even tough the rape it's brutal and adds to the story, after the tenth rape scene, it just lost all meaning. 




> gray multi dimensional characters,


Oh, and Claymore has only black and white characters? 



> awesome artwork,


Besides that fact that random characters are just ugly as hell and mostly of the Apostles are just teeth, tentacles and claws mixed togheter.



> fantastic fights,



In a Berserk figth, four things can happen:
1- Gutts gets his ass kicked.
2- Gutts efortlessly murders everyone.
3- Gutts is saved by someone or by plot.
4- Gutts gets a beating, then he pulls super strength from his ass and kills his opponent.

In Claymore's figths, there is teamwork, there are strategies, etc.

There are only three things that Berserk has that Claymore lacks:

Characters having inner-dialogues.

Large scale battles.

Nudity.

Apart from that, Claymore is superior in everything.

The plot is better. The characters are more interesting. The monsters are far more intimidating, etc, etc.

Don't get me wrong. Berserk is a very good manga but Claymore is just superior.


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## Memos (Aug 27, 2009)

MisterJB, Claymore has nudity, it just doesn't have it as much as Berserk.


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## MisterJB (Aug 27, 2009)

Kusuriuri said:


> MisterJB, Claymore has nudity, it just doesn't have it as much as Berserk.



Well, we need some sex scenes in Claymore.


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## Mephissto (Aug 27, 2009)

I prefer Claymore.


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## Nerazzurri (Aug 27, 2009)

Did I seriously read a post in this thread arguing Gutts characterisation was poor?

And compared to fucking _Claymore?_


Gutts is one of the most well-written characters in modern comics, each arc chronicling the evolution and moulding of his body and mind, the Golden Age arc was simply brilliant, visual story-telling at its best. Nothing in Claymore compares.


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## Lightysnake (Aug 27, 2009)

Tempproxy said:


> Oh yes from wanting revenge on Priscilla to now wanting revenge on the organisation, I can clearly see how it has strayed away from the theme of revenge.



Actually it's 'wanting to protect people' as well, did we miss that? It was kind of made clear when they risked their lives for Rabona


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## KidTony (Aug 27, 2009)

^^ Not only did you read that, but it's about to get better when I post a message conversation between me and JB, he actually argues that Gutts does not change as a character.

JBmister: I'm going to address your visitor message reply in this thread, might as well consolidate the argument in one thread instead of having two separate ones.


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## MisterJB (Aug 27, 2009)

KidTony said:


> JB, he actually argues that Gutts does not change as a character.



You're rigth about Gutts, I should have mentioned that he also changed as a character along with Caska.

I'm in a bit of an hurry now, so I'll just refute your arguments when I get back.


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## KidTony (Aug 27, 2009)

JB mister said:
			
		

> And that's it. Berserk is about a guy that wants to kill another guy. And little more.
> Gutts will always hate Griffith because Griffith doesn't change at all during the manga.
> It's not surprising, it's predictable. You could see the Eclipse coming, you could see Griffith allying the Apostles with the humans coming.



lol, yes let's strip the manga of everything that makes it up and concentrate on it's most basic, fundamental component. By that logic, Claymore is the story of an girl whose foster mother was killed and she's out for revenge. 

The fact that you want Griffith to change is evidence that you don't understand his character. Griffith is not going to change, nor is he 'the bad guy', he's the definition of what a gray character is. Someone who views his ultimate goal as something that must be achieved regardless of the cost. If Griffith were to 'change' now it would be nothing but a farce. When he betrayed his comrades he made it clear that he would achieve his goal of making his own country despite the costs. He did not bear any hatred towards them, and subsequently has no regrets either.

Gutts on the other hand has a different view of thing, and his thirst for revenge can be seen in the retribution arc, but even that has been used by Miura against Guts, portraying the dynamic between guts and his inner demon, there's always that chance that his thirst for revenge might swallow him whole and he become the monster he wants to destroy. There's nothing in claymore as interesting and well written as that relationship.

As to you predicting the eclipse, NO SHIT SHERLOCK, the entire first arc already told us what was going to happen, or don't you remember that the golden age was a flashback? If you're telling you could have predicted what would have happened in the story without that first arc, then i have some lottery numbers i'd like to ask you about.



> In Claymore there are twists, in Claymores characters change. The only character I see chaging in Berserk is Caska.



For people that accuse others of not reading manga, it's pretty obvious you don't do a good job yourself. Seriously, you can't have read berserk if you're actually saying something so ridiculous. When about every single important character in the series is multi-dimensional and has gone through some sort of catharsis.

As for claymore, all i remember are black and white, predictable characters with a couple of exceptions here and there. Hardly anything profound on the level of Berserk. 



> Claymore is not only an epic tale of revenge, but it's also a tale of what it is to be a human and what it is to be a monster. Even the main villain, Priscilla, has changed and is now travelling with Clare's love interest. Something I don't see Griffith doing.



'Epic tale of revenge'...Please, Berserk in an epic tale of revenge. Epic stories require buildup, not a volume and half of my mother died now i want to avenge her. Priscilla wasn't even an important character, she was a random nobody. There was no sense of betrayal or anything there, much unlike Guts and Griffith who were best friends. Compare the eclipse to what happened in Claymore...yeah, you can't, there's just no comparison.




> And the last time I checked, revenge stories were not created by Miura. Claymore is much more original than "two guys becomes friends. The bad guy betrays the other and kills the rest of their group. Good guy will now spent a limitless number of chapters trying to kill bad guy"



Miura didn't invent them, but he's the first to do it right in a manga. Unless there some other awesome older manga like Berserk that i don't know about. Claymore's revenge quest is a half-assed take on Berserk. I love it when you try to break berserk down into the most elementary components of the plot and ignore everything else, all while pretending Claymore i something more than crappy version of what you're playing down.

I would like to know however, what you consider is the complexity of Claymore? Chance are your answer is going to be something about that nonsense random twist of chapter 90 that you claymore fans love to tout as if it were some great thing.



> Berserk's plot is very basic. Claymore's plot has unexpected twists like Yoma being created from withing the Organization or that the Org comes from a Mainland and it is trying to use Awakened Beings to win a war against Dragons.



You call it basic, i call it non-convoluted with stupidly random twists with no foreshadowing. Yes, Berserk is a simple betrayal and revenge quest at it's core, it's just done so well that there's hardly any comparison.


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## Lightysnake (Aug 27, 2009)

KidTony said:


> lol, yes let's strip the manga of everything that makes it up and concentrate on it's most basic, fundamental component. By that logic, Claymore is the story of an girl whose foster mother was killed and she's out for revenge.


Problem is? Claymore's changed. Berserk? Guts's quest is still the centerpiece


> The fact that you want Griffith to change is evidence that you don't understand his character. Griffith is not going to change, nor is he 'the bad guy', he's the definition of what a gray character is.


Uh, no. Griffith's a very obviously evil person. What, sending people to murder an innocent witch wasn't an indication? Reign of Darkness? Sacrificing his followers?


> Someone who views his ultimate goal as something that must be achieved regardless of the cost. If Griffith were to 'change' now it would be nothing but a farce.


His ultimate goal being his own advancement. But then, Griffith's goals have NEVER been well written or defined


> When he betrayed his comrades he made it clear that he would achieve his goal of making his own country despite the costs. He did not bear any hatred towards them, and subsequently has no regrets either.


Yeah. TOTALLY not a bad guy.


> Gutts on the other hand has a different view of thing, and his thirst for revenge can be seen in the retribution arc, but even that has been used by Miura against Guts, portraying the dynamic between guts and his inner demon, there's always that chance that his thirst for revenge might swallow him whole and he become the monster he wants to destroy. There's nothing in claymore as interesting and well written as that relationship.


Problem is Guts is still a barely sane revenge driven borderline sociopath. Look how he reacts whenever Griffith's brought up. Let alone when he saw him.
There's plenty in Claymore more interesting because it's NOT an interesting relationship: Griffith's become a cookie cutter villain and Guts hates him while not wanting to lose himself to the dark side. HOW DEEP!


> As to you predicting the eclipse, NO SHIT SHERLOCK, the entire first arc already told us what was going to happen, or don't you remember that the golden age was a flashback? If you're telling you could have predicted what would have happened in the story without that first arc, then i have some lottery numbers i'd like to ask you about.


Hypocritical idiot. You whined about this originally. "But if not for the first arc...!!!!"




> For people that accuse others of not reading manga, it's pretty obvious you don't do a good job yourself. Seriously, you can't have read berserk if you're actually saying something so ridiculous. When about every single important character in the series is multi-dimensional and has gone through some sort of catharsis.


"I SAY SO! I DO!"


> As for claymore, all i remember are black and white, predictable characters with a couple of exceptions here and there. Hardly anything profound on the level of Berserk.


I love how you consider it 'profound' when it's as deep as a cup of coffee. I can easily say the Claymores' struggles to remain human are way more interesting.




> 'Epic tale of revenge'...Please, Berserk in an epic tale of revenge. Epic stories require buildup, not a volume and half of my mother died now i want to avenge her. Priscilla wasn't even an important character, she was a random nobody.


The entire point of Pris was she was a very sick, mentally disturbed child. Yeah, she was important and still is. And btw, a volume is buildup, let alone how Clare's revenge story isn't the main plot. Berserk isn't 'epic,' it's plodding and lacking direction now


> There was no sense of betrayal or anything there, much unlike Guts and Griffith who were best friends. Compare the eclipse to what happened in Claymore...yeah, you can't, there's just no comparison.


You're right, there wasn't betrayal, because there was NOTHING TO BETRAY. There was shock and horror and in Berserk, you knew it was coming. Yeah, you CAN compare it





> Miura didn't invent them, but he's the first to do it right in a manga.


This Is What Berserk Fanboys Actually Believe.
Did Osamu Tezuka stop existing?



> Unless there some other awesome older manga like Berserk that i don't know about. Claymore's revenge quest is a half-assed take on Berserk.


Revenge=half-assed take on Berserk.

This is What Berserk Fanboys Actually Believe


> I love it when you try to break berserk down into the most elementary components of the plot and ignore everything else, all while pretending Claymore i something more than crappy version of what you're playing down.


You're a hypocrite. End of story



> I would like to know however, what you consider is the complexity of Claymore? Chance are your answer is going to be something about that nonsense random twist of chapter 90 that you claymore fans love to tout as if it were some great thing.


Well, for starters, as he's read it-unlike you- I'm sure he will




> You call it basic, i call it non-convoluted with stupidly random twists with no foreshadowing. Yes, Berserk is a simple betrayal and revenge quest at it's core, it's just done so well that there's hardly any comparison.



Despite there actually, y'know, BEING foreshadowing...and 'non convoluted' is a GOOD thing, moron.


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## Eloking (Aug 27, 2009)

^  I'm so "NOT" going to read all this  ^


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## Hapayahapaya (Aug 27, 2009)

Eloking said:


> ^  I'm so "NOT" going to read all this  ^



It's just a troll talking. Pay no attention. He's trying pretty hard to bait everyone.


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## Eloking (Aug 27, 2009)

Some peoples should learn to accept the fact that others have different taste AND accept them.


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## MisterJB (Aug 27, 2009)

well, I was gonna say something but Snake is doing this better than me.
So, just two things.




KidTony said:


> lol, yes let's strip the manga of everything that makes it up and concentrate on it's most basic, fundamental component. By that logic, Claymore is the story of an girl whose foster mother was killed and she's out for revenge.


So much hypocrisy. I suposse you don't remember saying this.



> Claymore's random monster hunting, and introducing a higher ranked girl every volume as means of plot advancement





> He did not bear any hatred towards them, and subsequently has no regrets either.


So, guys sells his friends to Demons in order to obtain his goals and has no regrets about it whatsoever?
Yes, GRAY.



> thirst for revenge might swallow him whole and he become the monster he wants to destroy.


Wow, you just described something every Claymore has to go trough. Awakening. Becoming a monster.
And I suposse you haven't even considered what Clare will have to do in order to defeat Priscilla.



> As to you predicting the eclipse, NO SHIT SHERLOCK, the entire first arc already told us what was going to happen, or don't you remember that the golden age was a flashback?



Yes, because THAT'S what readers want. We want to know what's going to happen in the end of the next arc. Miura spoiled his own work.




> As for claymore, all i remember are black and white, predictable characters with a couple of exceptions here and there. Hardly anything profound on the level of Berserk.


Wow, you predicted that Clare's past. You predicted that Undine was actually very frail. You predicted that Ophelia was a pshyco because her brother was killed by the exact same monster that killed Clare's mother. 
You could even predict that Isley went from evil overlord to a single father. 
You could predict all of that but you can't predict Berserk? Weird



> I would like to know however, what you consider is the complexity of Claymore?


Ok, what about the fact that Priscilla has turned into an innocent child that is travelling with Clare's love interest, Raki? 
What about that fact that, even tough Miria wants to destroy the Organization, they are the last line of defense of humanity against the Dragons?  
What about the eternal question of what is to be a monster and what is to be a human, shown so well by the disparity between ABs like Ophelia/ Isley /Hilda and the humans bandits that attacked Clare or the Organizaton? 
What about the fact that we don't even know if revenge against Priscilla is a good things because she was not in her rigth mind when she killed Teresa?
Or the fact that the Organization is creating the same monsters they claim to hate? Or that they are trying to control ABs?

In Claymore, no one is truly evil or truly good. Especially Priscilla, the girl supossed to be the main villain.

In Berserk, there is an evil Demon, that has an army of Demons. And there is a good guy that has group of friends.


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## iamthewalrus (Aug 27, 2009)

honestly you guys, stfu.  YOu guys keep saying the same things and then reversing your positions:

berserk fan:  claymore is simple summary
claymore fan: well if claymore is simple, then berserk is simple summary
berserk fan: well if berserk is simple, then claymore is simple summary

wash, rinse, repeat.

snake is a claymore fanboy, tony is a berserk fanboy.  Both of you are avoiding the flaws of your mangas, or are denying they are flaws because you are such big fans of them.

although I like berserk more then claymore they are both good

also lighty, for the love of god stop calling people idiots and starting off your replies like this: "lol! gotta love berserk fans!"  You are just as bad no matter how hard you deny.

for all the trolls that i misinterpreted as human beings you have a sick sense of humor.


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## Midus (Aug 27, 2009)

At the end of the day, Angel Densetsu > Claymore.

Berserk shouldn't even be discussed with the two IMO. Completely different on so many levels. Only the most basic elements are comparable (Revenge, monsters, etc...).


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## Lightysnake (Aug 27, 2009)

iamthewalrus said:


> honestly you guys, stfu.  YOu guys keep saying the same things and then reversing your positions:
> 
> berserk fan:  claymore is simple summary
> claymore fan: well if claymore is simple, then berserk is simple summary
> ...


Well, Tony is a complete idiot, so I've got no issues calling him one.  And I've got no issue calling him a Berserk fanboy, because he's an almost stereotypical example. There's a difference between a fan and fanboy and when you claim Miura was the first mangaka to ever do Berserk's themes well? Yeah.


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## KidTony (Aug 27, 2009)

Lightysnake said:


> The epicness! Gotta love how Berserk fans just throw out m"IT'S TEH EPIC!"



Which it is, Berserk is the definition of epic.



> Notice Caska comes to that offscreen in a time skip? Great...great characterization. And never mind Guts always wanted to be Griffith's equal, hence why he didn't like being FORCED IN to the Band in the first place.



Unlike you friend there who doesn't seem to remember much of Berserk, you actually do which makes all your convenient forgetting of events and oversimplifications all the more dishonest. 

First, I was talking about the development of Guts and Caska's relationship While Guts was in the band of the Hawk. Caska went from disliking Gutts to realizing her idolized view of Griffith wasn't love, and finding a new kind of love in Gutts. It's these kinds of dynamics which make Berserk a story above the rest, nothing of the sort exists in Claymore

Secondly, you either didn't understand most of the golden age arc, or are playing the fool. Yes, at first Guts did not want to join the band of the hawk and was forced, but afterward he grew into his role and came to find a home with the Hawks. He came to view Griffith as an idol like the rest of the band, even doing assassinations because he asked. It was after he heard Griffith talking to the princess and hearing that Griffith would only consider someone equal to him as a friend, that he realized he wanted to be viewed by Griffith as friend, therefore he needed to surpass him. Again, this sort of dynamic does not exist in claymore.



> Funny how the Teresa arc was just as good as it didn't suffer from such diabolus ex machinas like, say King I Suddenly Wanna Fuck My Daughter
> And funny how you just can't care about all but a few of those characters. Who besides Judeau did ANYONE care about in the Band of the Hawk?



Teresa arc was nowhere near as good. There was hardly any buildup at all, Priscilla had no emotional connection to Clair, the execution was inferior in every single level. It's not even a matter of taste since the fundamental concept of both were similar, there just doesn't exist an aspect in which Berserk was inferior to Claymore.

About the king thing, that's a interesting event to bring up....and it's definitely not a deus ex machina or err what is it 'diabolus' ex machina? No idea what that is. It's just more evidence that you claymore fans need to attack petty details because your argument is weak by definition.



> And most of the purposes could've been achieved in a single chapter as opposed to volumes and volumes



1) No they couldn't have. 2) Good epics require build-up, go read any epic/high fantasy series, they are all massive multi-volume stories. Berserk is doing it right. 



> Which is the point the manga was at its best



No argument here. But when Berserk is at its worst, it's still better than Claymore at its best. Much better.




> Yeah, and we already saw this in the first two volumes, AND? The latest 'cast' is full of pathetically bad characters like Isidoro, who, frankly, sucks. Really, Serpico and Farnese are the only good additions there



We saw a little in the first two volumes, the retribution arc was the core of Berserk's revenge quest culminating in Griffith rebirth. Go read something else if you don't like epic fantasy, because fantasy epics are long by nature.  Your own personal dislike of lengthy epics is nothing but that, a personal qualm, not a fault of the story. 

About bad characters, nonsense. Perhaps Isidoro is the least fleshed out, doesn't make him a bad character, at least not any worse than 90% of the useless claymores with no personality. Most of anyone in Gutts team is a fleshed out multi-dimensional character, usually with gray characteristics as well. Farnese's mental deviations, the collapse of her faith and new-found acceptance of things she once saw as blasphemous. Serpico's struggle with Farnase's psyche, Scheirke's having to face the world and its hate towards magic after an isolated life, etc. Most characters have their own well written, and executed struggles, internally as much as external.



> You're an idiot. There's no other way to say it. "Random monster hunting?" You mean the point of their existence that nevertheless occupies like one volume, followed by a hunt that begins revealing how many secrets the Org. is keeping? Utter simplification based on utter falsehood (The Slashers, The Witch's Maw, War In the North, FOR A START proving you wrong.)



All that you mention essentially comes down to a bunch of random monster hunts. Most of Claymore has been a really long Retribution arc from Berserk, just not as awesome. A one or two volume crappy imitation of Berserk's golden age arc, a long, even crappier imitation of the retribution arc with new higher ranked claymores appearing every couple of volumes used to 'advance' (stagnate more likely) the plot, and a random ass revelation as of chapter 90--an obvious attempt to add some direction to a directionless series.



> We see some are just willing to bend over and take it in the ass for Miura and make excuses for him as a storyteller. No, the pacing problems have WAY more to do with the fact ALMOST NOTHING HAS HAPPENED. It took YEARS to finish up the Ganishka war, with numerous chapters just showing off the artwork. Guts and crew are still on the damn boat. The pirate hunting? Useless.



Not releasing chapters on a consistent basis has absolutely nothing to do with the story, absolutely nothing. The pacing of Berserk only suffers because of the amount of chapters released. If this was a by-monthly manga as it's supposed to be, or even a consistent monthly manga we would not be having this conversation. 

I don't know where you get the 'almost nothing has happened' bullshit from, and the 'has taken years' argument is again a result of the inconsistent release schedule, not a story problem in the very least. 




> Small little problem: WE DID GET THE FIRST ARC SO IT WAS PREDICTABLE. We knew Guts'd become an avenger, griffith'd become a demon and just about everyone would die. So, no.



Essentially true, but there's a difference in a series being predictable despite the intentions of the author, and it being predictable because a big chunk of it is a flashback. Aside the stuff that Miura hand-fed you, what other things make Berserk "predictable"? 



> The one thing you could ay was predictable was Teresa dying. Otherwise? The Organization creating Yoma, the male Awakened Beings, the Northern War's result, Isley's death, just about anything after the timeskip?



No more or less predictable than berserk. In fact, no more or less predictable than any non shonen (by the way, thanks for your spelling corrections, we all know good debaters are known for ranting at people for misspelling japanese words) manga out there.




> The little fairies raping one another in the Retribution arc, Griffith selling himself, Caska's near rape in the flashback, Farnese's near horse rape, All the troll rape, the Black Dogs raping civilians...You know, I probably missed some.
> 
> Given just about every time Miura needs to inject drama, backstory or give motivation, he'll throw something sexual in there.  Usually rape



Near rape is not rape, there is pretty significant distinction. All of those scenes are purposely added to increase the dark atmosphere of the story. Let's make no mistakes here, Berserk is a dark fantasy. It is an anti-naria, dark fantasy full of nihilistic philosophy. Just because you don't like rape doesn't make that a story flaw. To be honest, I don't like unneeded rape in my stories either, and some of the Berserk's scenes such as the ones with Wylad didn't do much for me, but in the end, Rape is berserk is nowhere near as common as some of you claim in your arguments. I remember three or four full-fledged rape scenes in the entire series, two of them of fundamental significance in the story.




> What are you blathering about, idiot? There aren't 'carbon copies,' they genuinely *Gasp* display different personalities, likes/dislikes/traits, etc.



Carbon copies, both outside and inside. Only a couple are interesting or fleshed out, most are crappy villains or side characters. There has never been any character in claymore with profound internal struggles like in Berserk. Nowhere near the complexity of most Berserk's characters.



> You mean it gives Farnese an excuse to get naked a lot. Not only that, the psychology of it fails. Utterly. Farnese's sado masochism is nothing more than a forgotten trait that gave her an excuse to strip down



How does the psychology fail? You obviously missed the whole point of her transition, the collapse of her faith, and her coming to terms with witchcraft, and even beginning to study magic. I guess it's hard to expect a claymore fan to understand what a gray character is, someone who isn't black or white bad or good, but someone with severe personality flaws and internal struggles being developed gradually.


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## KidTony (Aug 27, 2009)

Post too long, continued 



			
				snake said:
			
		

> Every Awakened Being is pretty unique. And every character in Claymore is a copy? Just about every Claymore has a distinctive face and plenty have noticeably nonhuman and unattractive ones.



Distinctive face my ass. They all look like dolls with blond hair and slanted eyes. Each with a different haircut and one or two facial differences. I agree that most awakened are well designed and have good artwork, but the only time you actually get to see this is when they fight. When was the last time you saw an epic battle spread in Claymore, or some awesome setting, etc? I bet if you post any scans of what you consider good claymore art, chances are it's going to involve an awakened character design.



> Gotta love this from Berserk fankids. Most of the 'no name fodder' aren't drawn very attentively at all.



LMAO, do i really need to start posting scans? I'll bet that for every scan of good artwork you find in Claymore, I'll find three in Berserk.




> It is Shonen, idiot. *And somehow Claymores perfecting their own abilities and having a hierarchy based on strength is...bad.* Right. Nevermind the fact the fights aren't like a typical Shonen at all as characters rely on teamwork, strategy and ability beyond just 'random attack.'



Very reminiscent of your traditional shounen mold of organizations with ranked fighters, and secret personal techniques.



> Awesome action? Since the Golden Age ended it's become "Guts gets ass kicked, uses secret ability, kills monster"
> Rosine, Count, Snake Baron...
> Nevermind how laughably dull the final battle with Ganishka was



All of those fights were amazing. Bar none. Better action than you will ever seen in Claymore.



> Berserk armor, Dragonslayer getting an upgrade, monsters having their second apostle form...



The Dragonslayer is not even a powerup...it's a huge sword. Berserker armor, absolutely, done in perfectly consistent way to how epic fantasy is written. You know like finding magic items, etc? Having some sort of consistent structure like magic and different levels of reality, etc. All of which is incredibly well planned and executed in berserk, not some random monster possession crap like in claymore Feels like I'm reading Bleach with all the arrancar releases. 




> and characters, and story, and plot, and pacing, and direction, and...hey, a lot of things.
> The ebst argument against Berserk: talk to a Berserk fanatic.



All of those things are infinitely, infinitely better in berserk in every single way.


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## Hapayahapaya (Aug 27, 2009)

Even after reading Claymore twice, I still get confused who is who. Everyone looks the fucking same. All the guys look like they have down syndrome and all the women look like marionette dolls. A few of the abyssal ones have pretty cool designs, though.

And don't get me started on the sexuality of the whole thing. Rape was a common way to show dominance and to obtain sexual pleasure in the middle ages. Deal with it. It showcases the brutality and barbarism of the times. Same with the torture. It's nasty, sure, but theres a point to it. Midland is a shitty place to live in.

There is a lot of fetishism going on in Claymore, which I think is more disturbing. Notwithstanding the lolis that turn into giant tentacle monsters (lol riful), there is the whole "pleasure from awakening" aspect, and eating other people's guts. Sometimes I think the manga would sell more if it was marketed as a Hentai.

And don't get me started on the fanbases. Berserk fans often discuss the nature of god and mankind, the place of religion, and the character's goals and motivations. Sure, its nothing deep compared to, say, Atlas Shrugged or Leviathan, but its pretty good for a manga. On the other hand, most Claymore discussions are wars on who would be the best Waifu.


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## Lightysnake (Aug 27, 2009)

KidTony said:


> Which it is, Berserk is the definition of epic.
> 
> 
> 
> Unlike you friend there who doesn't seem to remember much of Berserk, you actually do which makes all your convenient forgetting of events and oversimplifications all the more dishonest.


Oh, look, usual stupidity


> First, I was talking about the development of Guts and Caska's relationship While Guts was in the band of the Hawk. Caska went from disliking Gutts to realizing her idolized view of Griffith wasn't love, and finding a new kind of love in Gutts. It's these kinds of dynamics which make Berserk a story above the rest, nothing of the sort exists in Claymore


She saw Guts kill a few people for her and they spoke nicely before she fell for him. Which was about the extent of the development there, there was MUCH more on Guts and Griffith. Not like Caska was a good character anyways. She existed for Guts to fall for so she could be raped. 


> Secondly, you either didn't understand most of the golden age arc, or are playing the fool. Yes, at first Guts did not want to join the band of the hawk and was forced, but afterward he grew into his role and came to find a home with the Hawks. He came to view Griffith as an idol like the rest of the band, even doing assassinations because he asked. It was after he heard Griffith talking to the princess and hearing that Griffith would only consider someone equal to him as a friend, that he realized he wanted to be viewed by Griffith as friend, therefore he needed to surpass him. Again, this sort of dynamic does not exist in claymore.


And again, in case you don't get it-you don't: Guts knew from the start he was nothing but Griffith's tool, GRIFFITH TOLD HIM THAT TO HIS FACE. Guts's decision there came with remarkably little build up. "Wow, I suddenly don't want to be in your shadow, despite doing nothing to distinguish myself from your errand boy prior."
Nevermind the idiocy of so much in the Golden Age. The Queen is there just to show Griffith off, so was Julius...and hey, Guts killed that little kid ina representation of destroying his childhood innocence, wonder if this'll stick with-nope, he's over it already and it'll never really be meaningful. Yawn.
You basically throw out these weird qualificaitons: "Well, this doesn't exist in a totally different story!"
No shit, moron. 




> Teresa arc was nowhere near as good. There was hardly any buildup at all, Priscilla had no emotional connection to Clair, the execution was inferior in every single level. It's not even a matter of taste since the fundamental concept of both were similar, there just doesn't exist an aspect in which Berserk was inferior to Claymore.


I'm really wondering if you're a troll or if you really ARE this stupid. There was buildup with the hints of something deeper to Clare. Cut to flashback and we see Teresa, see what kind of character she is and then see her change as well. The point was Priscilla was an emotionally fucked up girl who took away the person Clare cared about most.
Teresa is a better drawn character than just about anyone in Claymore. The 'tears from silver eyes' scene (You missed that as 'buildup,' but you tend to miss things a lot) is more emotional than really anything in Berserk.
And I count the utterly laughable "Guts tries to throttle Caska during sex" scene. Oh, that was so laughably bad and utterly killed ANY of the good writing before it.


> About the king thing, that's a interesting event to bring up....and it's definitely not a deus ex machina or err what is it 'diabolus' ex machina? No idea what that is. It's just more evidence that you claymore fans need to attack petty details because your argument is weak by definition.


What do you think a 'diabolus ex machina' is? It's like a Deus ex...only it goes in the bad direction. "SUDDENLY SOMETHING BAD HAPPENS."
Eclipse combined that AND Deus Ex Machina from the Skull Knight. The King however is definitely a diabolus ex. With NO buildup he turns into a daughter raping lunatic when none of this character development was even slightly hinted at .



> 1) No they couldn't have. 2) Good epics require build-up, go read any epic/high fantasy series, they are all massive multi-volume stories. Berserk is doing it right.


Sure they could. Good buildup can be done in a page or a hundred pages. And any epic SERIES? No wonder they're all 'massive multi volume.' The best of them. Lord of the Rings, was conceived of as a single volume Shakespeare could set a play up perfectly within twenty pages, complete with backstory and character set up. There's plenty of fantasy that absolutely destroys this example. In fact, the quality among the doorstoppers is generally lesser (Sword of Truth, Wheel of Time, A Song of Ice and Fire is a happy exception.)





> No argument here. But when Berserk is at its worst, it's still better than Claymore at its best. Much better.


Translation: I'm a fanboy idiot.
Good we got that covered





> We saw a little in the first two volumes, the retribution arc was the core of Berserk's revenge quest culminating in Griffith rebirth. Go read something else if you don't like epic fantasy, because fantasy epics are long by nature.  Your own personal dislike of lengthy epics is nothing but that, a personal qualm, not a fault of the story.


We saw Griffith and Guts and got just about everytihng filled in the first volumes.
I love epic fantasy. I just like GOOD epic fantasy. Berserk is 'alright' epic fantasy and nothing more. It's pretentious, tries to be more than it is when all of it has been done before and done better by much better writers. George RR Martin, JRR Tolkien, Robert E. Howard, Lord Dunsany, George MacDonald, Joe Abercrombie, R. Scott Bakker, Scott Lynch...they do epic fantasy. They do it better.
I like how you confused 'Long' with 'well paced.' 


> About bad characters, nonsense. Perhaps Isidoro is the least fleshed out, doesn't make him a bad character, at least not any worse than 90% of the useless claymores with no personality.


Go on, name these Claymores with no personality. Actual characters unless you want it to be pointed out how characters like Minister Foss have no personality. Isidoro is a shallow parody of a kid samurai, he serves no point but for Miura to chortle over how clever he is  by bashing the kid samurai and he's as worthless as Puck. 
He's a bad character. There's nothing to him. He hardly develops. He's comic relief and BAD comic relief


> Most of anyone in Gutts team is a fleshed out multi-dimensional character, usually with gray characteristics as well. Farnese's mental deviations, the collapse of her faith and new-found acceptance of things she once saw as blasphemous. Serpico's struggle with Farnase's psyche, Scheirke's having to face the world and its hate towards magic after an isolated life, etc. Most characters have their own well written, and executed struggles, internally as much as external.


Serpico's about the one there who's interesting. Guts is an archetype who's been done thousands of times, Farnese is borderline worthless as her issues are nothing more than an excuse to get naked  and fawn over how awesome Guts is, Isidoro's worthles,s Schierke is the only other one who's well written


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## KidTony (Aug 27, 2009)

Rebuttal's to snake's second post.



Lightysnake said:


> Problem is? Claymore's changed. Berserk? Guts's quest is still the centerpiece



You don't even understand Berserk. Berserk is very 'saga' based. Each 'chapter' (not individual chapter, but what he calls a chapter like 'chapter of the millennium falcon', essentially an arc) is akin to a book, each chronicling one aspect of Gutt's story.

First chapter was the black swordsman, which was an introductory arc. In my opinion the manga could have done without this one as what is touched here is touched in the retribution arc. I always recommend people that want to read Berserk to skip the first three volumes and start in the golden age.

Anyway, Berserk has three major 'chapters'.

The first is the golden age, which as we know chronicles Gutt's childhood and early adulthood, and introduces Griffith and Caska to the story. 

The second is the 'retribution' chapter which chronicles Gutt's quest for revenge culminating in the rebirth of Griffith at the tower.

The third is the 'millennium falcon' chapter which tells us how Gutts finds new companions and shifts his goal or revenge without cost on Griffith, to finding a way to return Caska's memories.

So when you say that Gutt's quest remains unchanged, you show that you don't understand the series. Because after the retribution arc ended, his quest did change, and it is no longer about randomly eliminating all apostles until kingdom come, but about protecting those new-found comrades he has, and about finding a way to heal the damage Griffith did.



> Uh, no. Griffith's a very obviously evil person. What, sending people to murder an innocent witch wasn't an indication? Reign of Darkness? Sacrificing his followers?



Evil from your point of view, obviously he feels very different about what he did, which in turn is an important symbolic element in berserk. That morality and values are not real, and rather invented by people to suit their own purposes. In the end, why does Griffith does what he does? Is it because he enjoys killing? Is it because he has always been a bad person? 



> His ultimate goal being his own advancement. But then, Griffith's goals have NEVER been well written or defined



He wants to make his own nation, now i guess he wants to re-from the world. None of that has ever been seen from a perspective of his own personal greed. It's obvious in the conversation Guts and Griffith had early in the series (the naked convo) that he's moving forward out of some innate sense justice or righteousness, he believes he is ultimately doing the right thing. That's what we call a gray character. 

Also, just because you apparently have problems understanding certain things, because some aspect are just too complex for you, it doesn't mean that they were never present or explained in the story. Your troubles with assimilating parts of the plot, and apparent inability to reason others, are more an issue of personal shortcomings rather than a flaw in the writing. 



> Problem is Guts is still a barely sane revenge driven borderline sociopath. Look how he reacts whenever Griffith's brought up. Let alone when he saw him.
> There's plenty in Claymore more interesting because it's NOT an interesting relationship: Griffith's become a cookie cutter villain and Guts hates him while not wanting to lose himself to the dark side. HOW DEEP!



/sigh

Guts internal struggles are infinitely more interesting than whatever poorly executed existentialist philosophy in claymore, which by the way is about the only thing you can claim is 'deep' in that series. 

Then calling Griffith a cookie cutter villain when he has volumes and volumes of gradual development is the beginning of me realizing that perhaps I'm wasting my time with you people.



> Hypocritical idiot. You whined about this originally. "But if not for the first arc...!!!!"



Another thing which you seem to have trouble understanding, that there is a difference between unpremeditated predictability, and part of a story written in retrospect. 



> I love how you consider it 'profound' when it's as deep as a cup of coffee. *I can easily say the Claymores' struggles to remain human are way more interesting.*



Then you would be delusional. No surprise there though.



> The entire point of Pris was she was a very sick, mentally disturbed child. Yeah, she was important and still is. And btw, a volume is buildup, let alone how Clare's revenge story isn't the main plot. Berserk isn't 'epic,' it's plodding and lacking direction now



No matter how much you try to dress up the Teresa arc, facts are facts. There is nowhere near the amount of grand buildup of the Golden Age arc. Not only is a betrayal by a close friend infinitely more compelling than a random, irrelevant murder, the level of execution of the eclipse is just on another level. 



> You're right, there wasn't betrayal, because there was *NOTHING TO BETRAY. *


*
*

Exactly. Which makes it a lot less emotionally compelling than in Berserk. Nothing about that can be compared, it's like comparing uwe boll to Spielberg.



> Despite there actually, y'know, BEING foreshadowing...and 'non convoluted' is a GOOD thing, moron.



Yeah I know. Too bad that non-convoluted stuff was referring to Berserk, not claymore.




> Well, for starters, as he's read it-unlike you- I'm sure he will



I guess i just love discussing a series i never read. Your insults really don't bother me at all, at least nowhere near as much as your bad arguments which apparently are centered around denying that people who disagree with you ever read the story.


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## Xion (Aug 27, 2009)

I am up to date on both.

I like Berserk better, though I still adore Claymore.

Berserk, objectively, I believe is better (although my opinion is slightly biased since I read it more recently and thus it was kind of like cocaine, and the fact that there is a lot of stuff I can relate to in it).

It has a darker and deeper story with more extensive character development and interesting scenarios than Claymore. It also has better art.

Not to say Claymore is bad. Claymore is excellent in my opinion, however I do love Berserk a little more.


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## Memos (Aug 27, 2009)

Snake, if you can't discuss/debate without having to resort to insults, then don't.


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## Lightysnake (Aug 27, 2009)

> All that you mention essentially comes down to a bunch of random monster hunts. Most of Claymore has been a really long Retribution arc from Berserk, just not as awesome. A one or two volume crappy imitation of Berserk's golden age arc, a long, even crappier imitation of the retribution arc with new higher ranked claymores appearing every couple of volumes used to 'advance' (stagnate more likely) the plot, and a random ass revelation as of chapter 90--an obvious attempt to add some direction to a directionless series.


'A bunch of random monster hunts?' And pray tell, how DOES that work? Again, given you haven't READ the series and have just proved it..
And let me tackle this one by one: the higher ranked ones appearing...were Miria (given she was leading their team) and Ophelia when she went after Clare..
How does it 'imitate' the Retribution arc if Clare has only been loosely hunting Priscilla compared to other things? you keep bitching what a copy it is, yet you never back it up. 
Tell me, when does what you describe even happen? Miria is introduced and she becomes one of the central characters, same with Galatea. Ophelia's a villain and there to show the far darker side of the Claymores...that's about as high as the ranks actually got.
And 'random' revelation? Idiot, it was foreshadowed in the Teresa arc. They were also always planning to take down the Organization till the time skip occurred.
Tell me, when did it lack direction? They said they planned to go destroy the Organization before. 
And again...BERSERK has direction? Riiight




> Not releasing chapters on a consistent basis has absolutely nothing to do with the story, absolutely nothing. The pacing of Berserk only suffers because of the amount of chapters released. If this was a by-monthly manga as it's supposed to be, or even a consistent monthly manga we would not be having this conversation.


Despite numerous chapters where nothing meaningful happens. Hello, boat, Farnese's marriage subplot, pirate hunting, chapters full of people gawking at Griffith...


> I don't know where you get the 'almost nothing has happened' bullshit from, and the 'has taken years' argument is again a result of the inconsistent release schedule, not a story problem in the very least.


Yeah, kinda pointed it out. Keep up, idiot





> Essentially true, but there's a difference in a series being predictable despite the intentions of the author, and it being predictable because a big chunk of it is a flashback. Aside the stuff that Miura hand-fed you, what other things make Berserk "predictable"?


Well, gee. Serpico and farnese joining guts, Griffith tricking everyone and disposing of Ganishka, the Godhand being made manifest, the Golden Age ending in utter slaughter with Griffith becoming a demon god
When a plot in Berserk starts, it's easy to figure out how it'll end



> No more or less predictable than berserk. In fact, no more or less predictable than any non shonen (by the way, thanks for your spelling corrections, we all know good debaters are known for ranting at people for misspelling japanese words) manga out there.


Wow, pathetic. I said it was Shonen and you take this as a thing to spelling? Grasp the straws, GRASP them.
And Isley's death. There, point proven





> Near rape is not rape, there is pretty significant distinction.


They get stripped down, threatened with rape and nearly get vioplently raped. It happens a bit. Miura just loves putting most of the women in the situation


> All of those scenes are purposely added to increase the dark atmosphere of the story. Let's make no mistakes here, Berserk is a dark fantasy. It is an anti-naria, dark fantasy full of nihilistic philosophy. Just because you don't like rape doesn't make that a story flaw. To be honest, I don't like unneeded rape in my stories either, and some of the Berserk's scenes such as the ones with Wylad didn't do much for me, but in the end, Rape is berserk is nowhere near as common as some of you claim in your arguments. I remember three or four full-fledged rape scenes in the entire series, two of them of fundamental significance in the story.


Actually, when it gets excessive and shows Miura's laziness and inability to create anything else to add 'depth,' it is a flaw. Sorry. 





> Carbon copies, both outside and inside. Only a couple are interesting or fleshed out, most are crappy villains or side characters. There has never been any character in claymore with profound internal struggles like in Berserk. Nowhere near the complexity of most Berserk's characters.


Prove up, moron. 
Clare: Carbon copy? Hahahah...
Miria: Yeah, right...
Deneve: Quiet, introspective, with a fierce loyalty to comrades, prone to moments of impulsiveness and introspection
Helen: Loud, boisterous, insensitive, with an insecure and caring side for her comrades
Cynthia: Perky, cheerful, likes to bend rules and cause trouble
Ophelia: Completely insane, polite, sociopathic and violent
Isley: Do I even have to say it?
Uma: Timid, unsure of herself
Tabitha: Quiet, fiercely loyal, willing to do what;s best for the team
Galatea: Kind hearted, has a vain side, tends to take things with a smile no matter how bad they are
Clarice: Bumbling rookie, prone to moments of bravery to her displeasure
Miata: Insane, locked in a childlike state
Teresa: Yeah, who IS she a carbon copy of?
Raphaela: Or her?
Ilena: Or her?

Go on. Detail how they're 'carbon copies.' Endlessly bleating on it isn't enough to prove a point, idiot. As Berserk has no 'profound; struggles beyond giving Guts things to kill..



> How does the psychology fail? You obviously missed the whole point of her transition, the collapse of her faith, and her coming to terms with witchcraft, and even beginning to study magic.


I noticed. It was just quick, badly done and Farnese has never been interesting. Sado-masochism isn't just 'gotten over' like that and nor does it cause the one suffering it to strip down at every opportunity


> I guess it's hard to expect a claymore fan to understand what a gray character is, someone who isn't black or white bad or good, but someone with severe personality flaws and internal struggles being developed gradually.


Despite Claymore being populated of almost nobody BUT gray characters given most of the Claymores don't care about humans....Let me put it this way: George RR Martin. Creates better 'gray' characters than Claymore could dream of in his sleep.



> Distinctive face my ass. They all look like dolls with blond hair and slanted eyes. Each with a different haircut and one or two facial differences. I agree that most awakened are well designed and have good artwork, but the only time you actually get to see this is when they fight. When was the last time you saw an epic battle spread in Claymore, or some awesome setting, etc? I bet if you post any scans of what you consider good claymore art, chances are it's going to involve an awakened character design.



Uh, they all pretty much have distinctive faces, but you'd know that if you read it. Most have different hairstyles, yeah, but compare Clare to Miria, to Helen, to Deneve, to Priscilla, to Ilena, to Tabitha, to Yuma, to Galatea, to most of the others...if you say they honestly look alike? Prove it. Because you'll be laughed at
Last time I saw an epic battle spread of Claymore? Clare taking up her sword a chapter ago. Great battle scene? Clare vs. Raphaela.
And it might involve an Awakened Being. Wow, the writer does monsters well, what a demerit!



> LMAO, do i really need to start posting scans? I'll bet that for every scan of good artwork you find in Claymore, I'll find three in Berserk.


Probably, as Berserk's been running for over 20 years, ergo there'll be a lot more of it. Point?



> Very reminiscent of your traditional shounen mold of organizations with ranked fighters, and secret personal techniques.


And? I could name a few Shonen that still rank very highly in quality. Being 'Seinin' doesn't make you better.



> All of those fights were amazing. Bar none. Better action than you will ever seen in Claymore.


Oh, please. Guts vs. the Snake and Guts vs. the Count sucked. Yay, watch Guts get beaten and use the same exact strategy to take them down! EXCITING!



> The Dragonslayer is not even a powerup...it's a huge sword. Berserker armor, absolutely, done in perfectly consistent way to how epic fantasy is written. You know like finding magic items, etc? Having some sort of consistent structure like magic and different levels of reality, etc. All of which is incredibly well planned and executed in berserk, not some random monster possession crap like in claymore Feels like I'm reading Bleach with all the arrancar releases.


Awww, did the fanbrat forgot the bit where they note the Dragonslayer's become more powerful MAGICALLY? Like when it perces Ganishka? The Berserk armor's a powerup, hypocrite. And oh yeah, Schierke gives most of them magic items. Powerups. How Shonen.
And what are you blathering about? 'Monster possession?' The Claymores were DESIGNED to Awaken, idiot.


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## Lightysnake (Aug 27, 2009)

KidTony said:


> Rebuttal's to snake's second post.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't even understand Berserk. Berserk is very 'saga' based. Each 'chapter' (not individual chapter, but what he calls a chapter like 'chapter of the millennium falcon', essentially an arc) is akin to a book, each chronicling one aspect of Gutt's story.


Oh, it's SAGA based. So what now?


> First chapter was the black swordsman, which was an introductory arc. In my opinion the manga could have done without this one as what is touched here is touched in the retribution arc. I always recommend people that want to read Berserk to skip the first three volumes and start in the golden age.


Yeah, likes the first arc's inconsistency, poor quality and struggle for direction, let alone ruining the surprise of the Golden Age. Shame it's part of Berserk, huh?


> Anyway, Berserk has three major 'chapters'.
> 
> The first is the golden age, which as we know chronicles Gutt's childhood and early adulthood, and introduces Griffith and Caska to the story.
> 
> ...


Yawn. Lecture


> So when you say that Gutt's quest remains unchanged, you show that you don't understand the series.


Guts's quest: Kill Griffith. From the first chapter.
Has that changed?
I love how you ascribe more and more to Berserk to make it 'deeper'


> Because after the retribution arc ended, his quest did change, and it is no longer about randomly eliminating all apostles until kingdom come, but about protecting those new-found comrades he has, and about finding a way to heal the damage Griffith did.


And killing Griffith is still his number 1 priority. I think he proved that after he met him when he revived




> Evil from your point of view, obviously he feels very different about what he did, which in turn is an important symbolic element in berserk. That morality and values are not real, and rather invented by people to suit their own purposes. In the end, why does Griffith does what he does? Is it because he enjoys killing? Is it because he has always been a bad person?


Because he's a selfish, cruel monster who doesn't give a damn what he has to sacrifice. 




> He wants to make his own nation, now i guess he wants to re-from the world. None of that has ever been seen from a perspective of his own personal greed. It's obvious in the conversation Guts and Griffith had early in the series (the naked convo) that he's moving forward out of some innate sense justice or righteousness, he believes he is ultimately doing the right thing. That's what we call a gray character.


I love how you invent things constantly. Griffith has never shown it to be anything but his own self interest. He stopped being 'gray' at the Eclipse and when he raped Caska. He then even used their child to come back, had Flora assassinated...it takes serious delusion to think Griffith isn't a monster at this point. 



> Also, just because you apparently have problems understanding certain things, because some aspect are just too complex for you, it doesn't mean that they were never present or explained in the story. Your troubles with assimilating parts of the plot, and apparent inability to reason others, are more an issue of personal shortcomings rather than a flaw in the writing.


You attempting to make it deeper than it is doesn't excuse the flaws in Berserk. Or are you so deluded to think Berserk has no flaws?




> /sigh
> 
> Guts internal struggles are infinitely more interesting than whatever poorly executed existentialist philosophy in claymore, which by the way is about the only thing you can claim is 'deep' in that series.


I see you haven't read Claymore, given you're unable to name what's actually occurring in it.
you keep throwing out how it's poorly executed but obviously, you can't even name what you're trying to talk about


> Then calling Griffith a cookie cutter villain when he has volumes and volumes of gradual development is the beginning of me realizing that perhaps I'm wasting my time with you people.


Why not? He's a textbook cookie cutter villain now. He's shown no depth ever since the Eclipse, he's just using everyone around him and going through a retread of the Golden Age and he's still an evil demon lord using everyone.
Depth? Please, Ganishka had more




> Another thing which you seem to have trouble understanding, that there is a difference between unpremeditated predictability, and part of a story written in retrospect.


And sometimes that can be a mistake. Especially when what's writtne earlier is contradictory (OMG look at that total badass fuck that demon chick....wait, doesn't Guts hate physical contact?)




> Then you would be delusional. No surprise there though.


No substance here




> No matter how much you try to dress up the Teresa arc, facts are facts. There is nowhere near the amount of grand buildup of the Golden Age arc.


It's not volumes among volumes to reach a conclusion we already know, no. Wow, it's only a volume and a half and centered around a personal story. And?


> Not only is a betrayal by a close friend infinitely more compelling than a random, irrelevant murder, the level of execution of the eclipse is just on another level.


Betrayal by a close friend is more compelling than a random, irrelevant murder? Tell that to the Batman and Spiderman mythology. And Teresa's murder was neither random or irrelevant. 
The Eclipse...shame it was a total diabolus ended with a deus ex machina



> [/B]
> 
> Exactly. Which makes it a lot less emotionally compelling than in Berserk. Nothing about that can be compared, it's like comparing uwe boll to Spielberg.


Right, if it isn't exactly what you want, it sucks.
You're such a joke




> Yeah I know. Too bad that non-convoluted stuff was referring to Berserk, not claymore.


Berserk isn't convoluted? Ahahahahahah....Oh, man, that's hysterical. The cosmology is so tangled along with how the elves and 'other worlds' fit in, with the Godhand's whole plan and the Apostles fitting in...please





> I guess i just love discussing a series i never read. Your insults really don't bother me at all, at least nowhere near as much as your bad arguments which apparently are centered around denying that people who disagree with you ever read the story.


Nah, you just love downplaying anything that people can compare to the series you apparently hold to the level of Shakespeare and McCarthy.

It's just obvious you haven't read it as your points are vague with no specifics or outright lies. That clear for you?


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## Lightysnake (Aug 27, 2009)

Kusuriuri said:


> Snake, if you can't discuss/debate without having to resort to insults, then don't.



He stops being an idiot, I'll stop calling him one.


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## Lightysnake (Aug 27, 2009)

Anyways, I'm done for now. Arguing with someone who blatantly hasn't read the series and is just trying to wank to Berserk is getting old. Especially when he admits he only read one recent chapter of Claymore.


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## Memos (Aug 27, 2009)

Lightysnake said:


> He stops being an idiot, I'll stop calling him one.



You attacking him directly rather than his argument undermines you and thus, your argument. Calling someone an idiot because you don't agree with him can also work both ways as this has become nothing more than you two stating opinions at each other. The insults serve no purpose from what I can see.


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## Lightysnake (Aug 27, 2009)

Kusuriuri said:


> You attacking him directly rather than his argument undermines you and thus, your argument. Calling someone an idiot because you don't agree with him can also work both ways as this has become nothing more than you two stating opinions at each other. The insults serve no purpose from what I can see.



I'm attacking his argument as well as calling him out on that when he acts like one. Especially given he's only read one chapter.


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## Lightysnake (Aug 27, 2009)

Hapayahapaya said:


> Even after reading Claymore twice, I still get confused who is who. Everyone looks the fucking same. All the guys look like they have down syndrome and all the women look like marionette dolls. A few of the abyssal ones have pretty cool designs, though.


I've heard very few get confused in the slightest  there. Especially given how hard it is to mistake them with their faces and hairstyles tending to be rather different.



> And don't get me started on the sexuality of the whole thing. Rape was a common way to show dominance and to obtain sexual pleasure in the middle ages. Deal with it. It showcases the brutality and barbarism of the times. Same with the torture. It's nasty, sure, but theres a point to it. Midland is a shitty place to live in.


Yeah, but there's a point where it's just 'enough already.' George RR Martin has it done, but it never feels like it's too much. When almost every female in the series has had a sexual assault attempted on them sexually or not? 



> There is a lot of fetishism going on in Claymore, which I think is more disturbing. Notwithstanding the lolis that turn into giant tentacle monsters (lol riful), there is the whole "pleasure from awakening" aspect, and eating other people's guts. Sometimes I think the manga would sell more if it was marketed as a Hentai.


....what exactly in it is hentai? Monsters eating people is hardly fetishized. The pleasure aspect too...remember, some they're supposed to Awaken sooner or later...and Claymore's got more disturbing fetishes than Berserk? The phallic symbols left and right? The overly sexual monsters? Remember Wyald about to rape Caska?


> And don't get me started on the fanbases. Berserk fans often discuss the nature of god and mankind, the place of religion, and the character's goals and motivations. Sure, its nothing deep compared to, say, Atlas Shrugged or Leviathan, but its pretty good for a manga. On the other hand, most Claymore discussions are wars on who would be the best Waifu.



I'm not exactly active with many boards either way save occasional visits to SkullKnight, but...so? Just a glance at Animesuki tells otherwise, with discussions on the ramifications of the island wars, characters' intentions and how things are impacting them, the ramifications for humanity, the nature of the overall war, etc.

There's just as much of a section of the Berserk fandom that is just there to see Guts graphically kill things.


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## Memos (Aug 27, 2009)

If you're attacking his argument then surely there's no need to attack him with personal insults as this is a discussion about the manga and not each other.

While reading your posts I found a fair few valid points ruined by the constant insults. You're not gonna help your argument when it comes to people reading it and you're certainly not going to get KidTony to agree with you. You're basically wasting your time typing for no other purpose than to harp on about your opinion.


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