# Ultimate Gohan (DBS) vs. SSB Vegeta



## Mabel Gleeful (May 14, 2017)

Gohan is _finally_ back, so let's test him.

*Location:* Rocky wasteland where Goku and Vegeta first fought.
*Distance:* 100 metres.
*Scenario 1: *Episode 90 Gohan fights pre-ROSAT destruction SSB Vegeta.
*Scenario 2: *Episode 90 Gohan fights post-ROSAT destruction SSB Vegeta.

Let's get this going.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 14, 2017)

Vegeta should logically be above Goku at SSJB form despite losing out to him due to Kaioken. Gohan just kind of clashed with Goku for all of a moment in that form.

Going on what we know Vegeta wins just from his extra gains in the RoSaT before his third trip to the future.


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## Deer Lord (May 14, 2017)

Vegeta takes this

Gohan threw like 2 punches with Blueberry goku, not enough to say they're equal imo.
Vegeta has better showings thus far, but its not a stomp in any measure.
This might change after the actual tournament.


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## Roharu (May 14, 2017)

Scenario 1: Gohan high-difficulty, maybe 5/10, can't really decide but seeing the tittle of the episode and what it was trying to imply on that son_vs_father battle , I'm leaning more toward Gohan.

Scenario 2: Vegeta Mid-difficulty, he has shown a huge improvement during his fight against Black. We needed a longer episode to see what Gohan can really accomplish in a longer battle, but as far as I could tell, Gohan is still below current Vegeta.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (May 14, 2017)

Vegeta is being downplayed, he shits on gohan.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sherlōck (May 14, 2017)

Vegeta high difficulty.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## ChaosTheory123 (May 14, 2017)

Deer Lord said:


> Gohan threw like 2 punches with Blueberry goku, not enough to say they're equal imo.



All you need is 1 attack to establish offensive/defensive/speed related parity *shrugs*

Things like skill, stamina, and endurance?

They need more

But trading a few blows without any given attack overwhelming the other fucker is more than enough to establish they're similarly powerful.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 14, 2017)

I still have to watch the episode myself, but judging from what GM says, it's fairly undeniable that Gohan has reached Blueberry tier 

probably not quite as strong as Goku or Vegeta yet, but in the same ballpark


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## ChaosTheory123 (May 14, 2017)

I need to watch it myself, but I can comment on semantics 

If Goku was using KKSSB though?  Would be pretty stupid to suggest he's holding back in SSB given KKSSB is historically far more dangerous even if he's gotten a better grasp of it now.  Why multiply his power by 2 with that while holding back if he could just accomplish the same in a far safer manner powering up normally in SSB?


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 14, 2017)

just watched the ep

yeah, I'm definitely on the "Gohan is Blueberry tier" boat

Reactions: Agree 1


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## trance (May 14, 2017)

Vegeta after a very good fight

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 14, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I need to watch it myself, but I can comment on semantics
> 
> If Goku was using KKSSB though?  Would be pretty stupid to suggest he's holding back in SSB given KKSSB is historically far more dangerous even if he's gotten a better grasp of it now.  Why multiply his power by 2 with that while holding back if he could just accomplish the same in a far safer manner powering up normally in SSB?


It felt kind of similar to the Belgamo fight with Goku going all the way to the max because he could, he barely fought as a vanilla Blue. I got the idea that he surpassed his limits in acknowledgement of Gohan doing the same. SSJB Goku barely did anything, then KK landed a OHKO pretty much.

I see this fight being more mid difficulty at most to start off, but Gohan kept surpassing his limits so that could ramp up to harder and harder difficulty.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (May 14, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I need to watch it myself, but I can comment on semantics
> 
> If Goku was using KKSSB though?  Would be pretty stupid to suggest he's holding back in SSB given KKSSB is historically far more dangerous even if he's gotten a better grasp of it now.  Why multiply his power by 2 with that while holding back if he could just accomplish the same in a far safer manner powering up normally in SSB?



Gohan very heavily held the advantage over Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Gohan in his Ultimate Form powers up further and keeps telling Goku to take the fight seriously and get stronger, Goku eventually goes Blueberry mode, they exchange some punches then he goes into using Kaioken with that form and they exchange a punch.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 14, 2017)

Fang said:


> Gohan very heavily held the advantage over Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Gohan in his Ultimate Form powers up further and keeps telling Goku to take the fight seriously and get stronger, Goku eventually goes Blueberry mode, they exchange some punches then he goes into using Kaioken with that form and they exchange a punch.


Gohan had the disadvantage vs SSJ2 prior to Goku pushing more power out of him. You make it seem like they did more with Goku in SSJB than in SSJ2.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Fang (May 14, 2017)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Gohan had the disadvantage vs SSJ2 prior to Goku pushing more power out of him. You make it seem like they did more with Goku in SSJB than in SSJ2.



I think you need to actually watch the fight.


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## Sablés (May 14, 2017)

Goku started off with the edge but towards the end of the fight, Gohan had a slight but definite advantage. The last exchange before Gohan throws Goku in the air and transforms, is both of them trading and tanking each other's blows.

Worth mentioning that Gohan didn't use full strength until Goku went SSB but as for the fight itself, they performed at similar levels.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 14, 2017)

Fang said:


> I think you need to actually watch the fight.


I think you do.

The vast majority of the second fight was SSJ2 Goku vs Ultimate Gohan (full power by his own admission). For most of the fight Goku had some kind of edge. He pushes Gohan more and Gohan puts out even more power and starts to knock back Goku instead to a similarly degree if not more. Goku goes SSJB, Gohan pushes out even more, they clash for almost no time, Goku goes KK and one shots.

Gohan got stronger as the fight went on at a similar rate to Black and it felt similar to how he brought out more power against Cell at Goku's prodding.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Fang (May 14, 2017)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> I think you do.



Nah, I stand by my statement you do actually.


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## ChaosTheory123 (May 14, 2017)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> It felt kind of similar to the Belgamo fight with Goku going all the way to the max because he could, he barely fought as a vanilla Blue.



I swear you fuckers place weight on the most meaningless qualifiers

"Barely" lacks relevance.  If character A and character B demonstrate the ability to exchange attacks for even an instant without either being overwhelmed there's a rough parity between their more short term abilities such as attack power, durability, and speed.



> I got the idea that he surpassed his limits in acknowledgement of Gohan doing the same.



So, just to clarify, we're asserting Goku's suicidally overconfident in his ability to control the KK in SSB now and opts to use that to power up over just drawing more power out of a supposedly holding back SSB

Is that what you're trying to claim?  Or is it only sounding stupid to me because you failed to convey your actual point?



> SSJB Goku barely did anything, then KK landed a OHKO pretty much.



Was Gohan reduced to gore?

If not?

I don't get the fixation on him being one shot given he needs to be within a marginal standard deviation of Goku's power for this to make any sense

But this is Dragon Ball, so I suppose what's normally well understood gets thrown out the window because  DB is where critical thinking goes to die

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Deer Lord (May 14, 2017)

No in DBS was ever reduced to gore. ever.
that isn't really an argument.

No one's disputing Gohan is up there, it's just this short exchange isn't enough to sell him as Goku/Vegeta's equal in some people's eyes.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fang (May 14, 2017)

Deer Lord said:


> No in DBS was ever reduced to gore. ever.
> that isn't really an argument.
> 
> No one's disputing Gohan is up there, it's just this short exchange isn't enough to sell him as Goku/Vegeta's equal in some people's eyes.



I think you missed the point of CT's argument.


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## ChaosTheory123 (May 14, 2017)

Deer Lord said:


> No in DBS was ever reduced to gore. ever.
> that isn't really an argument.



Right

I'm sorry, Dragon Ball's a special snowflake now

I forgot~



> No one's disputing Gohan is up there, it's just this short exchange isn't enough to sell him as Goku/Vegeta's equal in some people's eyes.



And as much as appealing to popular opinion holds any meaning to me (it doesn't)?

Argument from belief just isn't cutting it as a valid stance, and that's all this line amounts to here



Fang said:


> I think you missed the point of CT's argument.



They generally do that

Which then leads to them getting butchered as they regurgitate it for later use and I have to hold their hands all over again

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 14, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> "Barely" lacks relevance.  If character A and character B demonstrate the ability to exchange attacks for even an instant without either being overwhelmed there's a rough parity between their more short term abilities such as attack power, durability, and speed.


By barely. I mean they clashed for a moment and Goku used Kaioken shortly after. It was enough to establish that Gohan is somewhere in the "SSJB tier" which can vary from characters like Future Zamasu or RoF arc Goku to Current Goku or Vegeta. I'm not arguing that point. My point is that compared to other characters like 17 or Hit, Gohan wasn't shown fighting against Blue for long enough to establish where he was in the pecking order.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> So, just to clarify, we're asserting Goku's suicidally overconfident in his ability to control the KK in SSB now and opts to use that to power up over just drawing more power out of a supposedly holding back SSB
> 
> Is that what you're trying to claim?  Or is it only sounding stupid to me because you failed to convey your actual point?


He's clearly gotten a lot better with it. When he used it against Bergamo he didn't have any sort of ill effect on his body and Goku has always been able to control himself after actually achieving the power, at least to get out what he wants even if the control isn't as minute as base or SSJB.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Was Gohan reduced to gore?
> 
> If not?
> 
> I don't get the fixation on him being one shot given he needs to be within a marginal standard deviation of Goku's power for this to make any sense


When was the last time a DBS character got reduced to gore? The focus on Gohan being one shot is just to demonstrate KK SSJB is definitely out of Gohan's range.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ChaosTheory123 (May 14, 2017)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> By barely. I mean they clashed for a moment and Goku used Kaioken shortly after.



I know what barely means

I'm telling you the qualifier is meaningless when it comes to establishing attack power, durability, and speed

If you want to discuss skill, stamina, and endurance?  

You need more

Things like the former though are all things that can be encapsulated into a single moment in time thus length of time spent lacks any relevance.



> It was enough to establish that Gohan is somewhere in the "SSJB tier" which can vary from characters like Future Zamasu or RoF arc Goku to Current Goku or Vegeta. I'm not arguing that point.



Then the fuck are we discussing?



> My point is that compared to other characters like 17 or Hit, Gohan wasn't shown fighting against Blue for long enough to establish where he was in the pecking order.



Don't recall concerning myself with the thread topic 

Pretty sure I made it clear I'm here for semantics



> He's clearly gotten a lot better with it. When he used it against Bergamo he didn't have any sort of ill effect on his body and Goku has always been able to control himself after actually achieving the power, at least to get out what he wants even if the control isn't as minute as base or SSJB.



Better doesn't make it wise to use when the maligned after effects have ever been a thing in the first place.  No matter how small the gamble has become, it still exists to worry about.  If Goku hasn't hit his ceiling in SSB, there's no point to using KK when he has safer means to raise his power.



> When was the last time a DBS character got reduced to gore? The focus on Gohan being one shot is just to demonstrate KK SSJB is definitely out of Gohan's range.



Again, right, special snowflake it is~

I'm sorry, am I supposed to take this as a real argument?  How common an occurrence it is lacks relevance.  Its a metric for comparison to determine how hilariously outclassed a fucker is in any series

If your durability can't hold out to retain any of your body, you don't get any fraction of the feat

You read HxH and this eludes you?

How?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 14, 2017)

I'll get this over with and just post the fight


1:38 is when Goku tells Gohan to release more power

2:59 is when Gohan says he'll go full-strength

Reactions: Like 2


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 14, 2017)

Deer Lord said:


> No in DBS was ever reduced to gore. ever.
> that isn't really an argument.
> 
> No one's disputing Gohan is up there, it's just this short exchange isn't enough to sell him as Goku/Vegeta's equal in some people's eyes.



Man I really love those times when under leveled characters in DBZ were A OK after getting pu-

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Juub (May 14, 2017)

Eh Gohan needs more feats than a brief exchange with Goku to place him above Vegeta in my books.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 14, 2017)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Man I really love those times when under leveled characters in DBZ were A OK after getting pu-


Dragon Ball Z wasn't an anime original series that had to adhere to a much earlier time slot's restrictions. That's really what it comes down to when I say "DBS hasn't shown any gore". The closest you get is Piccolo's arm coming off cleanly.

Since when have we given durability to someone getting knocked out, particularly when the attacker was aiming for that rather than a fatal blow.

I'm not arguing that Gohan isn't in the Blue tier somewhere. He's just not at Vegeta's level.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 14, 2017)

I'm not debating whether or not he's Vegeta's level

I'm saying its not unknown for shit like that to happen in Dragonball, regardless of its current status and time

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 14, 2017)

The most we got to brutal in Super was Zamasu killing future Bulma


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## Juub (May 14, 2017)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> The most we got to brutal in Super was Zamasu killing future Bulma


Him stabbing Goku and killing Chi-Chi and Goten was pretty hardcore too.


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## Fang (May 14, 2017)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Dragon Ball Z wasn't an anime original series that had to adhere to a much earlier time slot's restrictions. That's really what it comes down to when I say "DBS hasn't shown any gore". The closest you get is Piccolo's arm coming off cleanly.
> 
> Since when have we given durability to someone getting knocked out, particularly when the attacker was aiming for that rather than a fatal blow.
> 
> I'm not arguing that Gohan isn't in the Blue tier somewhere. He's just not at Vegeta's level.



Technically speaking *it* is. There is no manga called "Dragon Ball Z". 



Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Man I really love those times when under leveled characters in DBZ were A OK after getting pu-

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 1


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## Unlosing Ranger (May 14, 2017)

Did we miss Gohan training with Piccolo recently or the  golden frieza arc?
I recall some serious harm there.


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## Gordo solos (May 15, 2017)

Gohan might not be able to beat Goku and Vegeta just yet, but he's only getting warmed up right now


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 15, 2017)

Fang said:


> Technically speaking *it* is. There is no manga called "Dragon Ball Z".


Because it having additions and a name change means it's not a manga adaption.

I never said there was a manga called that anyway.


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## Juub (May 15, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> Gohan might not be able to beat Goku and Vegeta just yet, but he's only getting warmed up right now


Is he really committing or is he gonna go back to being a non-fighter once that tournament is over? Gohan has some sort of love for fighting. Not like Goku but his Saiyan blood still makes him enjoy a good fight.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Sherlōck (May 15, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I'm telling you the qualifier is meaningless when it comes to establishing attack power, durability, and speed
> 
> If you want to discuss skill, stamina, and endurance?
> 
> You need more



That's what people are saying. Gohan in short exchange may show similar level of stat but as the fight drags on he will continue to lose the edge & will ultimately lose. 

And thus even though many people are putting him in SSB tier they don't think he can take Goku/Vegeta to a point where afterwards they won't have any strength to fight anyone seriously. Same thing they can't say about a fight between Goku & Vegeta.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Revan Reborn (May 15, 2017)

I'd put Vegeta above Gohan at the moment, though by the universal tournament, they will be pretty even.


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## Gordo solos (May 15, 2017)

slayedigneel said:


> I'd put Vegeta above Gohan at the moment, though by the universal tournament, they will be pretty even.


For the the actual tournament itself, the outcome will either be:

Gohan is still weaker than Goku and Vegeta

Or

Gohan will be stronger than them and is the strongest U7 fighter

I want to believe the latter will happen but realistically speaking, it's going to be the former


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 15, 2017)

More like Toriyama will kill Gohan's push again and make Goku go over with a new super sand lesbian form again


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## XImpossibruX (May 15, 2017)

Gohan in recent episodes has awoken his warrior self and has expressed his excitement in fighting.

So he's not just fighting for protecting others anymore, but fighting because he wants to. 

So i doubt he will regress.


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## Fang (May 15, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> For the the actual tournament itself, the outcome will either be:
> 
> Gohan is still weaker than Goku and Vegeta
> 
> ...



Or Gohan is stronger then Vegeta but still slightly below his dad.


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## Unlosing Ranger (May 15, 2017)

Fang said:


> Or Gohan is stronger then Vegeta but still slightly below his dad.


This might happen, should give Vegeta a push to get stronger when the son catches up like that.
He's been worrying over the child after all.


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## Gordo solos (May 15, 2017)

Fang said:


> Or Gohan is stronger then Vegeta but still slightly below his dad.


Possibly, regardless those 3 will be strongest U7 fighters


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## XImpossibruX (May 15, 2017)

I really hope Gohan stays behind Vegeta. 

It's quite annoying when Vegeta trains his ass off for years, pushes himself to the limit and goes above and beyond in Super, only to be surpassed by Gohan in a day because of "amazing writing." 

It really devalues Goku and Vegeta's training when they do this. Goku and Vegeta deserve to be above Gohan.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Adamant soul (May 15, 2017)

This would be an awesome fight to watch and they could make a lot of callbacks to when Gohan fought Vegeta as a kid and how far he's come since but, much like Goku I see Vegeta taking it at the end. Gohan right now is just below Vegeta in power though Vegeta might widen the gap a bit with the ROSAT training he's going to do in the next episode.

When Gohan gets the new form they're hyping up he's gong to shit on both Goku and Vegeta, until Goku shows off his new form anyway.


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## Fang (May 15, 2017)

XImpossibruX said:


> I really hope Gohan stays behind Vegeta.
> 
> It's quite annoying when Vegeta trains his ass off for years, pushes himself to the limit and goes above and beyond in Super, only to be surpassed by Gohan in a day because of "amazing writing."
> 
> It really devalues Goku and Vegeta's training when they do this. Goku and Vegeta deserve to be above Gohan.



Vegeta exists only to jobber.

Reactions: Funny 4 | Disagree 1


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## KaiserWombat (May 15, 2017)

Gohan, relevant?

...

I give it 10 episodes. 12, if I'm being generous.

8 episodes if there's no Vegeta beatdown to mitigate between the not-Goku and Goku battle times.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Blocky (May 15, 2017)

KaiserWombat said:


> Gohan, relevant?
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


There hinting Gohan with a new Ultimate form, So he'll be Relevant much as he can be soon.


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## KaiserWombat (May 15, 2017)

oh, cool

...

12 episodes, it is then


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## Fang (May 15, 2017)

KaiserWombat said:


> oh, cool
> 
> ...
> 
> 12 episodes, it is then



Better to be relevant and important in one arc then a punching bag for Goku and his antagonists for the entire series.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Gordo solos (May 15, 2017)

KaiserWombat said:


> oh, cool
> 
> ...
> 
> 12 episodes, it is then


And that's how long this tournament will probably be 

We might have to put away our foam fingers for Gohan when that time comes


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## Mabel Gleeful (May 15, 2017)

"Vegeta only exists to jobber"


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## Sablés (May 15, 2017)

KaiserWombat said:


> oh, cool
> 
> ...
> 
> 12 episodes, it is then


I think you grossly underestimate Toei's padding.

You'll need double that in-between random Pilaf, Jaco, Bulma and other contextually irrelevant scenes.


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## God Movement (May 15, 2017)

Gohan is never returning to nerdville. Those days are over.

Reactions: Like 3 | Optimistic 1


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## King Kakarot (May 15, 2017)

Vegeta 1 shots I'm going to laugh when Gohan gets ko'd by someone not God level in the tourney

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 15, 2017)

God Movement said:


> Gohan is never returning to nerdville. Those days are over.


Except he canonically does to some extent.


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## Fang (May 15, 2017)

Seeing how Super has already retconned a bunch of shit in End of DB, why would he be a complete nerd again?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Gordo solos (May 15, 2017)

Sablés said:


> I think you grossly underestimate Toei's padding.
> 
> You'll need double that in-between random Pilaf, Jaco, Bulma and other contextually irrelevant scenes.


Gohan will be relevant behind the scenes then


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## Revan Reborn (May 15, 2017)

Fang said:


> Seeing how Super has already retconned a bunch of shit in End of DB, why would he be a complete nerd again?



Eh, I heard somewhere that they weren't, or was that only for the manga.


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## Divell (May 16, 2017)

Vegeta fudders. Sorry, Gohan.


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## Montanz (May 16, 2017)

Gohan is a newbie in fighting skill, even assuming they're equally matched in power Vegeta would edge him out.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 16, 2017)

I'm giving it to Gohan at this point. Gohan is easily able to fight at SSJB levels, both him and Goku were knocking each other around like nothing. Hell their final clash, I think if _both_ their attacks hit, they'd have had a double KO instead of Goku managing to land his blow while Gohan narrowly missed. Either one of them at that point would have knocked each other out. That is kind of above Vegeta's paygrade, I believe.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Sherlōck (May 16, 2017)

God Movement said:


> Gohan is never returning to nerdville. Those days are over.



Does Chichi know?


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## Fang (May 16, 2017)

Sherlōck said:


> Does Chichi know?



Considering she's focused on Goten now, I'm pretty sure she's irrelevant in affecting Adult Gohan.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## XImpossibruX (May 16, 2017)

Does Goten even go to school or study? 

The kid is a NEET.


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## Fang (May 16, 2017)

Considering she forces him to study, he doesn't qualify as a NEET.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 16, 2017)

Gohan's still a nerd

He's the only one with an actual job

He's just busy cleaning up Goku's mess of fucking dooming the multiverse


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## NightmareCinema (May 16, 2017)

Sasukefire said:


> @NightmareCinema is a gohan fanboy I swear


You're Goddamned right I am.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 16, 2017)

Sasukefire said:


> Not really not even close vegeta is obviously stronger than gohan and it's already been confirmed that he's going into the time chamber next episode he going to shit on gohan current power once he gets out


1. Gohan was fighting evenly with Goku in SSJB and forced him to use Kaioken. That's more than what Vegeta ever did in this part of the timeline, and it was shown that if both of their attacks hit it'd have been a double KO. Vegeta isn't stronger than Gohan at this point.
2. Way to make a bunch of assumptions about Vegeta.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Hachibi (May 16, 2017)

Normally I would say that Vegeta is still above Gohan but since Gohan after all this time is finally getting a push again and due to Dragon Ball Rule number 6 ("Vegeta must job to make someone look strong"), the kid's going to go over

#MakeGohanLookStrong

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Adamant soul (May 16, 2017)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 1. Gohan was fighting evenly with Goku in SSJB and forced him to use Kaioken. That's more than what Vegeta ever did in this part of the timeline, *and it was shown that if both of their attacks hit it'd have been a double KO.* Vegeta isn't stronger than Gohan at this point.
> 2. Way to make a bunch of assumptions about Vegeta.



No it wasn't, Goku hit Gohan and knocked him out. That's all that happened in that instance.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The Runner (May 16, 2017)

Goten really needs to step up 

Trunks atleast has Future Trunks

Goten's got nothing

Reactions: Agree 2


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 16, 2017)

Adamant soul said:


> No it wasn't, Goku hit Gohan and knocked him out. That's all that happened in that instance.


That's the thing. Both attacked each other, Goku hit Gohan, Gohan's attack missed. If both had hit each other, it'd have been a double knockout.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 16, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> Goten really needs to step up
> 
> Trunks atleast has Future Trunks
> 
> Goten's got nothing


Unfortunately it doesn't seem like much is made of the two of them. You can tell as much by the ending and their treatment in Super which makes even Gohan's look good.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 16, 2017)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That's the thing. Both attacked each other, Goku hit Gohan, Gohan's attack missed. If both had hit each other, it'd have been a double knockout.


That's some wild imagination you've got there.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 16, 2017)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> That's some wild imagination you've got there.


Its not. Its like the classic 'samurai jump at each other and slash' we get a cut away to the aftermath and the other Samurai falls.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 16, 2017)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Its not. Its like the classic 'samurai jump at each other and slash' we get a cut away to the aftermath and the other Samurai falls.


It's only framed that way. It doesn't mean it actually is that way. Unlike a sword cutting a person in real life, these fighters could face someone and find their sword does nothing. Why would Gohan one shot SSJB KK Goku when him and Goku at a lower power weren't doing all that much harm to each other?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (May 16, 2017)

Looks like someone's mad now. Cute.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 16, 2017)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> It's only framed that way. It doesn't mean it actually is that way. Unlike a sword cutting a person in real life, these fighters could face someone and find their sword does nothing. Why would Gohan one shot SSJB KK Goku when him and Goku at a lower power weren't doing all that much harm to each other?


Its the exact same thing. Both Goku and Gohan went to hit each other with their full power: Gohan missed, Goku's blow connected. Hence why it was set up that if BOTH their attacks hit, it would have been a Double KO.


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## The Runner (May 16, 2017)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Its the exact same thing. Both Goku and Gohan went to hit each other with their full power: Gohan missed, Goku's blow connected. Hence why it was set up that if BOTH their attacks hit, it would have been a Double KO.


From my hazy recollection of the episode, Gohan didn't miss as much as Goku punched him first because he was faster in his KK form


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 16, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> From my hazy recollection of the episode, Gohan didn't miss as much as Goku punched him first because he was faster in his KK form


No, the final clash, both went to attack. It was alluded to that if both of their attacks hit, Gohan and Goku would have knocked each other out. It was to test the upper limit of Gohan's power.


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## The Runner (May 16, 2017)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, the final clash, both went to attack. It was alluded to that if both of their attacks hit, Gohan and Goku would have knocked each other out. It was to test the upper limit of Gohan's power.


Aluded to?

Are you sure about that?


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## tonpa (May 16, 2017)

Gohan with low difficulty.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 16, 2017)

tonpa said:


> Gohan with low difficulty.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## tonpa (May 16, 2017)

Gohan had a better battle record.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Gordo solos (May 16, 2017)

tonpa said:


> Gohan had a better battle record.




*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## tonpa (May 16, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> *Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Fang (May 16, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> *Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Darth Nihilus (May 16, 2017)



Reactions: Funny 2


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 16, 2017)

tonpa said:


> Gohan had a better battle record.


Does he actually? He won against some Freeza soldiers with Krillin...then there was Cell, some guys as Saiyaman, Super Buu, and that's it for Dragon Ball 

Vegeta has a lot more wins tbh. Goku, Yajirobe, Gohan, Cui, Zarbon, Dodoria, Guldo, Ginyu Goku, Android 19, Semiperfect Cell, Cell Jrs, Pui Pui, that one human at the end.


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## Gordo solos (May 16, 2017)

He killed the Cell Jrs too, but for some reason I think he's only referring to DBS


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## Darth Nihilus (May 16, 2017)

Vegeta has also beaten Goku in literally every battle they've had 

Why isn't he the main character?


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## NightmareCinema (May 16, 2017)



Reactions: Funny 2


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## tonpa (May 16, 2017)

Gohan
Number of fights: 21
Wins: 11 (52.4%)
Losses: 9 (42.8%)
Interruptions, ties, etc: 1 (4.8%)
oGoku, Piccolo, Gohan vs. Raditz
oGohan vs. dinosaur
xKuririn, Gohan, Piccolo vs. Nappa
oGoku, Gohan, Kuririn, Yajirobe vs. Vegeta
oKuririn, Gohan vs. Freeza Army soldiers
xKuririn, Gohan, Vegeta vs. Gurd
xVegeta, Gohan, Kuririn vs. Recoome
oKuririn, Gohan vs. Ginyu with Goku’s form
xVegeta, Kuririn, Gohan vs. Freeza
xPiccolo, Gohan vs. Freeza
xVegeta, Kuririn, Gohan, Piccolo vs. Freeza
oGohan vs. Cell
oGohan vs. Cell Juniors
oGohan vs. revived Cell
oGohan vs. group of four bank robbers
oVidel, Great Saiyaman vs. duo of robbers
xGohan vs. Spopovitch, Yamu
--Gohan vs. Dabura
xGohan, Kaioshin vs. Majin Boo
oGohan vs. Majin Boo (evil)
xGohan vs. Majin Boo (evil, Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)

Vegeta
Number of fights: 24
Wins: 12 (50%)
Losses: 10 (41.7%)
Interruptions, ties, etc: 2 (8.3%)
oGoku vs. Vegeta
xGoku, Gohan, Kuririn, Yajirobe vs. Vegeta
oVegeta vs. Kyui
oVegeta vs. Dodoria
xVegeta vs. Zarbon I
oVegeta vs. Zarbon II
oKuririn, Gohan, Vegeta vs. Gurd
xVegeta, Gohan, Kuririn vs. Recoome
oVegeta vs. Jheeze
oKuririn, Gohan, Vegeta vs. Ginyu in Goku’s form
xVegeta, Kuririn, Gohan vs. Freeza
xVegeta, Kuririn, Gohan, Piccolo vs. Freeza
oVegeta vs. No.19
xVegeta, Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan vs. No.17 and No.18
oVegeta vs. Cell I
xVegeta vs. Cell II
--Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Yamcha vs. Cell Juniors
oVegeta vs. Pui-Pui
--Goku vs. Vegeta
xVegeta vs. Majin Boo
oVegetto vs. Majin Boo (evil)
xVegeta vs. Majin Boo (evil)
xVegeta vs. Majin Boo (evil)
oVegeta vs. Knock


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## tonpa (May 16, 2017)

Sorry for double posting, that's before super and vegeta track record is okay at best.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Darth Nihilus (May 16, 2017)



Reactions: Like 3


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## NightmareCinema (May 16, 2017)

And what happens literally one episode after?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gordo solos (May 16, 2017)

Leave Black out of this


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## Fang (May 16, 2017)

@MusubiKazesaru isn't there a rule about chain-disliking someone's posts?


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 16, 2017)

tonpa said:


> Gohan
> Number of fights: 21
> Wins: 11 (52.4%)
> Losses: 9 (42.8%)
> ...


You're counting some group fights as wins in cases like Guldo where Gohan had basically lost with Vegeta stealing the win and basically adding more characters to stuff like vs Freeza to get more fights. I wouldn't count stuff like Spopovitch and Yamu either.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 16, 2017)

Fang said:


> @MusubiKazesaru isn't there a rule about chain-disliking someone's posts?


I'm not sure that there is, but I think something was mentioned when this was brought up in the past.

So I'll just say it here. No dislike chaining. With the current alert system you're just bugging a person and that'll likely lead to them ignoring you or just come off as picking a fight and that's not even getting into how that can ruin threads.

If something like this continues to happen then let me know.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Fang (May 16, 2017)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> I'm not sure that there is, but I think something was mentioned when this was brought up in the past.
> 
> So I'll just say it here. No dislike chaining. With the current alert system you're just bugging a person and that'll likely lead to them ignoring you or just come off as picking a fight and that's not even getting into how that can ruin threads.
> 
> If something like this continues to happen then let me know.



I see. 

So if someone dislikes one post for disagreeing with them then waits several minutes and dislikes all your posts in the thread from that point, its abuse still right?


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## Darth Nihilus (May 16, 2017)

Huh. You have a very nice point there. A double edged sword with chips on the side 

Nvm me being off topic


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## Fang (May 16, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> And what happens literally one episode after?



Pretty much entirely how DBS is after the RoF arc.

Vegeta gets completely curbstomped by Hit casually, watches Super Saiyan 2 Goku stalemate Goku Black after he followed Future Trunks back to the present/past, first up to fight Goku Black who blitzes him even WHILE Vegeta is already in his Blueberry God form, overcomes the physical advantage, completely curbstomps Vegeta and removes him from the rest of the fight involving Black, Goku, Future Trunks, and Future Zamasu, and this repeats again with more zenakis for both sides.

Hell when they return for round 2, Black is styling all over them again.


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## NightmareCinema (May 16, 2017)

Fang said:


> Pretty much entirely how DBS is after the RoF arc.
> 
> Vegeta gets completely curbstomped by Hit casually, watches Super Saiyan 2 Goku stalemate Goku Black after he followed Future Trunks back to the present/past, first up to fight Goku Black who blitzes him even WHILE Vegeta is already in his Blueberry God form, overcomes the physical advantage, completely curbstomps Vegeta and removes him from the rest of the fight involving Black, Goku, Future Trunks, and Future Zamasu, and this repeats again with more zenakis for both sides.


Even in the RoF arc, he got fucked by a weakened Final Form Freeza's planetbuster, requiring Whis to save his life.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Fang (May 16, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Even in the RoF arc, he got fucked by a weakened Final Form Freeza's planetbuster, requiring Whis to save his life.



Exactly.

And to add insult to injury, Goku steals the finisher/killing Freeza from Vegeta after Whis rewind. 

"Black is fodder compared to current Goku and Vegeta"

Nonsense.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 16, 2017)

There's no need to double post what amount to the same thing.

Vegeta not being the one to kill Freeza this time was dumb. Well the entire lolrewind was. Beerus and Whis ruined any kind of tension the movie/arc could've had.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## NightmareCinema (May 16, 2017)

Sasukefire said:


> Wow gohan fans and you do know that was because of plot at least he wasn't gohan in that arc
> Lmao lol he was so weak he couldn't even go super saiyan so goten>>>>jobhan


You mean the same arc where Gohan outright admits that he's out of shape and feels guilt about how weak he was?

Sure.

The same arc that got him to training again.

Look where he's at now.

And hey, at least Gohan has the excuse of being out of shape. What does Vegeta have to say for himself for getting fucked up by a weakened Final Form Freeza's attack while he was in Blueberry Form?

Jobgeta strikes again. Much as I like Vegeta, none can deny he constantly gets the short end of the stick.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 16, 2017)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> There's no need to double post what amount to the same thing.
> 
> Vegeta not being the one to kill Freeza this time was dumb. Well the entire lolrewind was. Beerus and Whis ruined any kind of tension the movie/arc could've had.



that movie/arc is a trash fire

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Gordo solos (May 16, 2017)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> that movie/arc is a trash fire



*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Funny 6


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## Fang (May 16, 2017)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> that movie/arc is a trash fire



CD how do you feel about someone claiming Black is "fodder tier" compared to current Goku and Vegeta?


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 16, 2017)

Fang said:


> CD how do you feel about someone claiming Black is "fodder tier" compared to current Goku and Vegeta?



I think someone would be jumping to conclusions

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Gordo solos (May 16, 2017)

@Sablés you're lucky this section doesn't have the ningen rating

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mabel Gleeful (May 16, 2017)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> that movie/arc is a trash fire


I disagree. Only Vegeta being killed by Freeza and not being allowed to finish him up is really trash, the rest is quite good, and in any case, we get a satisfying beatdown by Vegeta as well as him showing to be Goku's equal (in that movie at least).

Super's RoF can rot in Hell, though. All of it.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Darth Nihilus (May 16, 2017)

I honestly felt (and still feel) like Goku Black overshadowed Zamasu throughout the entire arc 

Zamasu by himself felt like overkill 

Immortal or no

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Sablés (May 16, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> @Sablés you're lucky this section doesn't have the ningen rating


Not you,

the oversized gohan pic.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 16, 2017)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> that movie/arc is a trash fire


I actually liked the Super arc of RoF more than the Super BotG arc, but both were pretty bad. RoF had some decent changes which offset it still looking like shit compared to BotG which was a huge downgrade in every way.


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## Fang (May 16, 2017)

Mabel Gleeful said:


> I disagree. Only Vegeta being killed by Freeza and not being allowed to finish him up is really trash, the rest is quite good, and in any case, we get a satisfying beatdown by Vegeta as well as him showing to be Goku's equal (in that movie at least).
> 
> Super's RoF can rot in Hell, though. All of it.



In both the movie and the TV version with the Freeza arc, its not really fair to say even that much considering Freeza was visibly running low on stamina/endurance and not being accustomed to fighting a drawn out battle in his new Golden form.


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## NostalgiaFan (May 17, 2017)

Fang said:


> In both the movie and the TV version with the Freeza arc, its not really fair to say even that much considering Freeza was visibly running low on stamina/endurance and not being accustomed to fighting a drawn out battle in his new Golden form.


Speaking of Freeza, did he come back again recently in the current Super arc?


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## Mabel Gleeful (May 17, 2017)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Speaking of Freeza, did he come back again recently in the current Super arc?



Recent leaks show he is supposed to in the next four or so episodes, in a rather dumb way to boot (Buu falls asleep, again, and he has to be replaced, and Goku thinks replacing him with Freeza).


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## Unlosing Ranger (May 17, 2017)

Poor cell. They could replace freeze in a day with one chamber visit or/and him absorbing everyone that isn't in the tourney.
Will have the dragonballs to revive anyway.


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## Mabel Gleeful (May 17, 2017)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Poor cell. They could replace freeze in a day with one chamber visit or/and him absorbing everyone that isn't in the tourney.
> Will have the dragonballs to revive anyway.


They will supposedly ask Uranai Baba to revive him for one day instead of using the dragon balls.


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## Unlosing Ranger (May 17, 2017)

Mabel Gleeful said:


> They will supposedly ask Uranai Baba to revive him for one day instead of using the dragon balls.


I mean, I know that's something she can do...
The fuck just take Baba.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 17, 2017)

>people believing in Gohan when the show's lord and savior Goku hasn't activated Goku time


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 17, 2017)

Honestly Super's version of Hell in Dragon Ball doesn't even fit in with what explanation we got in Dragon Ball.


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## NostalgiaFan (May 17, 2017)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Honestly Super's version of Hell in Dragon Ball doesn't even fit in with what explanation we got in Dragon Ball.


>Expecting consistency with the Dragon ball franchise

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 17, 2017)

NostalgiaFan said:


> >Expecting consistency with the Dragon ball franchise


DBZ went from saying how souls that were sent to hell were cleansed and reborn (canon in the Buu arc) to having the dead villains spectate the Kid Buu fight within 10 episode of each other.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Courier Six (May 17, 2017)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> DBZ went from saying how souls that were sent to hell were cleansed and reborn (canon in the Buu arc) to having the dead villains spectate the Kid Buu fight within 10 episode of each other.


I thought that was filler?



Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> >people believing in Gohan when the show's lord and savior Goku hasn't activated Goku time


Rider looks so tired from Gligamesh shit.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 17, 2017)

Rali57 said:


> I thought that was filler?


Hell under snake way is filler, but the stuff with Hell being where souls get destroyed instead of getting reborn was canon. King Yama kept Vegeta from that fate just in case because of the shit going on with Buu. Now in RoF/Super we get personal hells instead.

Another example of inconsistency even in the manga is how Dragon Ball work with revivals. For a while they had to actually have the body and have it in a condition for the person to come back in, later on after Namek, Porunga throws in putting Krillin's body together free of service and after that batch of wishes they basically dropped that old rule. Then it got brought back with Freeza where he's still in pieces despite getting blown up anyway.

And another in the anime is how Vegeta (the planet) was destroyed, but to be fair they were making the Hell and Saiyan backstory filler before the manga covered it to flesh out the series.


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## The World (May 17, 2017)

DBZ anime was never filler


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## The Runner (May 17, 2017)

So Goku getting hurt by a rock is legit then

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 17, 2017)

Sir Jogga said:


> So Goku getting hurt by a rock is legit then

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Fang (May 17, 2017)

Don't see what the point of bringing up Vegeta saving Gohan and Krillin on Namek signifies during the Ginyu Force arc, just means when they paid him back in full by making him dodge a blast from Recoome that was going to kill him which he thought he could take.


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