# Best arguments/points you've seen.



## Ishmael (Feb 16, 2019)

Thread was done sometime last year, but with wank accusations going wild and being thrown around. Let's give credit to some posters so..

What were some of the best points you've seen brought up by poster's and what were just in general good arguments?


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## Hi no Ishi (Feb 16, 2019)

@Shark schooled the hell out of me for always saying people could just easily jump out of the way of Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave like they did the normal version. He pointed out the waves of water were tall or taller than the massive trees and made Ponta look small which unless you can fly would be very very hard for someone to evade.

I'll add more later.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 16, 2019)

I BELIEVE it was @Esano who simply pointed out that its straight up stated that Madara was the most powerful edo...Not Nagato or Itachi.

Which was a very straightforward and obvious way to shut down wankers. I liked it.

Ill add more later

Reactions: Like 1


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## kokodeshide (Feb 16, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I BELIEVE it was @Esano who simply pointed out that its straight up stated that Madara was the most powerful edo...Not Nagato or Itachi.
> 
> Which was a very straightforward and obvious way to shut down wankers. I liked it.
> 
> Ill add more later


In reality, what was stated was that Madara was his trump card/special reserve. Not his strongest. *Not arguing whether or not he is,* just pointing out that I don't believe it was ever stated that he was the strongest edo.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 16, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> In reality, what was stated was that Madara was his trump card





kokodeshide said:


> Not his strongest


Sure kiddo

Cuz they aren’t synonymous 



kokodeshide said:


> Not arguing whether or not he is,


I mean hey

If you wanna bend over backwards to split those hairs you go right ahead

Just don’t begrudge others who take a statement thats never contested at face value in a manga meant for 12 year olds


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## ShinAkuma (Feb 16, 2019)

Technically Madara was not called the strongest Edo, but being Kabuto's "trump card" the implication is clear that they are talking about power considering what the edo's were being used for.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 16, 2019)

Hussain's latest performance had me in awe.

Presenting the Idea Itachi wasn't actually sick in Part two. He did so by correctly shifting the burden of proof and asking for scenes of Itachi in hospital. That among his examples of people losing strength in a battle without sickness and comparing them to Itachi, really sold the argument.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2019)

People have convinced me that all Sages are equal and that Minato can dance around 8th Gate Gai all day long despite losing 2 arms to people who 8th Gate Gai can demolish at close-range.

 Sorry guys, that's the best I got. I haven't seen a good argument in a while.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 16, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Hussain's latest performance had me in awe.
> 
> Presenting the Idea Itachi wasn't actually sick in Part two. He did so by correctly shifting the burden of proof and asking for scenes of Itachi in hospital. That among his examples of people losing strength in a battle without sickness and comparing them to Itachi, really sold the argument.


Better watch out

Some people will think you’re serious


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 16, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> People have convinced me that all Sages are equal and that Minato can dance around 8th Gate Gai all day long despite losing 2 arms to people who 8th Gate Gai can demolish at close-range.
> 
> Sorry guys, I haven't seen a good argument in a while.





WorldsStrongest said:


> Better watch out
> 
> Some people will think you’re serious


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## Turrin (Feb 16, 2019)

Wasn’t this forum but I read someones write up on why Tobirama > Minato; 
I also watched a video from Swagkage/SethTheProgrammer on Youtube that talked about KCM Minato strength ; and while i think their rankings of characters are usually wrong; they made a good point that a lot of people don’t account for how big of an increase KCM should give Minato. And I realized I was doing that too. 

So then I took another look at the war an was like Tobirama is keeping up with or outperforming KCM Minato consistently so why do people think this guy is weaker then Base Minato. Then I looked at the original raws; and decided that guy whose post I read was right and Tobirama is a Tier above Base Minute.


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## kokodeshide (Feb 16, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Sure kiddo
> 
> Cuz they aren’t synonymous


 When there is statements to the opposite, yeah, it wouldn't be. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> I mean hey
> 
> If you wanna bend over backwards to split those hairs you go right ahead
> 
> Just don’t begrudge others who take a statement thats never contested at face value in a manga meant for 12 year olds


Oh, that's why you haven't read the manga, haven't hit 12 yet. Be prepared for a twist you never saw coming...spoilers...It was an alien the whole time!

Who can contest Kabutos THOUGHTS, his version of inner sakura? Are you serious here?



ShinAkuma said:


> Technically Madara was not called the strongest Edo, but being Kabuto's "trump card" the implication is clear that they are talking about power considering what the edo's were being used for.


 Not entirely. Because we have Nagato being called the strongest even after Kabuto used the secret edo. Madara hadn't been revealed yet, but the coffin was already shown.

Madara was his trump card, he could not use him right away because he didn't want to reveal obito as a fake. So he kept it in reserve.

Madara would have been defeated just as fast as Nagato if Itachi was there with Gaara and Naruto. Nagato cucked Bee and Naruto, and would have done more cucking if Itachi and Kabuto didnt fuck shit up. Meanwhile Madara survived his fights PURELY due to his boosts. Point is, it is not so cut and dry as you would think.


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## Santoryu (Feb 16, 2019)

The majestic and flawless argument that asserts Kakashi's Kamui cannot kill a Kage-level shinobi because he didn't use to kill anyone on panel. A great many posters have made this claim, and continue to do so with incredible eloquence, clarity, and validity.


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## Ishmael (Feb 16, 2019)

It's implied that Madara was the strongest edo, not sure why people are debating this but oh well.


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## Turrin (Feb 16, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> It's implied that Madara was the strongest edo, not sure why people are debating this but oh well.


According to Kishi Edo Deidara is

Shows how hard plot made him Job


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## Ishmael (Feb 16, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Meanwhile Madara survived his fights PURELY due to his boosts. Point is, it is not so cut and dry as you would think.



This also is iffy, looking at Madaras fight there's not much suggesting his boost were shown until later on. We see him gaining the Senjutsu boost that he in his previous life plotted on doing, and the JJ boost he got as well. 

He performed well against the Gokage with things he had in his possession during his previous life. He had rinnegan, he had the PS and EMS and that's what helped him and was implied to be behind even the Gokages power. 

Sure he had those boost but they were boost plotted on by him before many of the shinobi in the war arc were born. It's Naruto, the power creep is always there and will continue, said boost just like everyone else were receiving waa necessary to keep him in the ball game.


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## Ishmael (Feb 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> According to Kishi Edo Deidara is
> 
> Shows how hard plot made him Job



Dangerous I'll admit, a suicide bomber that can defeat the whole suicide concept. Imagine tobirama with Deidara as one of his edos. Glorious.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Feb 16, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Dangerous I'll admit, a suicide bomber that can defeat the whole suicide concept. Imagine tobirama with Deidara as one of his edos. Glorious.


I swear I wasn’t thinking this, but now that you mention it this should tell us pretty clearly how Kishi rates Tobirama Edo; if he believes Deidars is the strongest Edo above Nagato & Itachi & Edo Kages for being able to blow itself up repeatedly

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ishmael (Feb 16, 2019)

I don't see what's hard to understand, the founders and many other shinobi from the past had the luxury of being written as above most the current shinobi imo. 

Madara and hashirama were portrayed and written as two titans that could really only match up against one another. There's not much else to it.


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## kokodeshide (Feb 16, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> This also is iffy, looking at Madaras fight there's not much suggesting his boost were shown until later on. We see him gaining the Senjutsu boost that he in his previous life plotted on doing, and the JJ boost he got as well.
> 
> He performed well against the Gokage with things he had in his possession during his previous life. He had rinnegan, he had the PS and EMS and that's what helped him and was implied to be behind even the Gokages power.
> 
> Sure he had those boost but they were boost plotted on by him before many of the shinobi in the war arc were born. It's Naruto, the power creep is always there and will continue, said boost just like everyone else were receiving waa necessary to keep him in the ball game.


 I see what you are saying, the problem is. He never had Rinnegan in his youth. Or Mokuton use from what we have seen.
He lived through the Gaara and Naruto assault because of rinnegan, Otherwise he would have died right there. 
He survived one of the Gokage assaults because of Mokuton.
He survived another because of Preta
He survived getting fucked by Hirudora likely because of Edo regen
He couldnt beat Bee and Naruto without Mokuton.
So many different situations that he was guided through by being revived boosted. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, I'm just saying, Nagato was revived Nerfed, and then extra nerfed by Kabuto's control and tactics. Madara was boosted by the plot, kabutos modifications, and Mokuton. There is an argument for Edo Madara vs Edo Nagato. But Edo Madara would absolutely THRASH EMS Madara. Same goes for Nagato in my opinion.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ishmael (Feb 16, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> I see what you are saying, the problem is. He never had Rinnegan in his youth. Or Mokuton use from what we have seen.
> He lived through the Gaara and Naruto assault because of rinnegan, Otherwise he would have died right there.
> He survived one of the Gokage assaults because of Mokuton.
> He survived another because of Preta
> ...



So what you're getting at is you feel had nagato been revived in his healthy state, then a argument could be made on who the strongest Edo was or? 

I do understand what you're saying as well, nagato didn't have the luxury of being revived in his prime state compared to Madara.


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## kokodeshide (Feb 16, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> So what you're getting at is you feel had nagato been revived in his healthy state, then a argument could be made on who the strongest Edo was or?


Kind of but not really. The problem with Edo Madara vs Edo Nagato is they both neg each others jutsu. To me it is an endless fight. But Nagato has shown more mastery with Rinnegan. Human realm and summons make him far more lethal than madara. Madara does have PS and Mokuton, Mokuton can be beaten. PS is next to impossible to beat, but easier to deal with than a CST or CT. you can at least attempt to dodge a PS slash. you cant dodge a CT. Unless you have the fire power of a 2 Bijuu, its going to be nearly impossible to beat CT. 

What I am saying is more of, Edo Nagato IS stronger than Edo Madara, but Madara is far more effective in a war scenario because he can move unaided and can also use preta plus has an amazing defense in susano to protect from physical attacks. It's kind of like how A4 is better than minato in nearly every stat but minato beats him. Nagato is better in nearly every stat, but his negatives hinder his USEFULNESS to kabuto, hence why Kabuto would consider him a trump card and also consider Nagato the strongest.



Ishmael said:


> I do understand what you're saying as well, nagato didn't have the luxury of being revived in his prime state compared to Madara.


Yeah, being in a state of atrophy he was sill ungodly powerful. Give him equal stats to like Tobirama or Hiruzen and he absolutely murders Madara.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> *It's kind of like how A4 is better than minato in nearly every stat* ...



Ohhhh shiiiit, let the chaos begin. 

 Not that I disagree or anything.


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## Grinningfox (Feb 16, 2019)

The Minato disrespect continues


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## Serene Grace (Feb 16, 2019)

Anything Tobirama related with @UchihaX28 and @Veracity

Reactions: Like 1


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## Grinningfox (Feb 16, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Anything Tobirama related with @UchihaX28 and @Veracity



Don’t forget Turrin


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## Cad Bane (Feb 16, 2019)

@kokodeshide 

I get what you're saying about Madara vs Nagato being an endless fight but couldn't Madara's meteor summoning be effective?


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## Ishmael (Feb 16, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> But Nagato has shown more mastery with Rinnegan.



How so? To my knowledge Madara is the only one to truly master it, sure nagato could use it with no drawbacks but he wasn't the original owner. Hence the reason he couldn't use the eyes to it's full potential. 

Madara was shown drawing metors with his rinnegan, that's a feat nagato cannot accomplish.




kokodeshide said:


> Nagato is better in nearly every stat



His ninjutsu is lacking

His taijutsu is as well

His speed is lacking 

Durability is more than likely lacking too, there's no hype and feats going for him in terms of that. 

Reaction is lacking as well. 

Nagato is strong but one would be lying if they tried to say he was strong outside of the capabilities that rinnegan grant. At least from what we've seen.


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## Ishmael (Feb 16, 2019)

DoctorDoom6789 said:


> @kokodeshide
> 
> I get what you're saying about Madara vs Nagato being an endless fight but couldn't Madara's meteor summoning be effective?



Nah, he was confident and ensures mū/kabuto that they would simply come back shortly after. So nagato being an Edo ensures the same thing.

Reactions: Like 1


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## kokodeshide (Feb 16, 2019)

Grinningfox said:


> The Minato disrespect continues


Yeah cause saying minato is clever enough to beat a guy who is superior is more disrespectful than saying minato stalemates a guy he is better than in almost every way plus has FTG that shits on anything a has. yeah, I'm the disrespectful one. I'm the RESPECTFUL one, giving minato credit for fighting FAR above his caliber because of his sheer talent and FTG. Everyone else is saying he is so incompetent that he cant even beat a guy he is vastly greater than.


DoctorDoom6789 said:


> @kokodeshide
> 
> I get what you're saying about Madara vs Nagato being an endless fight but couldn't Madara's meteor summoning be effective?


Meteor kills Madara when he uses it. A small CT deals with that meteor anyway, Or nagato rides his bird into the sunset. Or he could risk a ST and blow it up. Lasers and missiles too bust it up some. But mostly, small CT negs the Meteor no problems. Plus, Onnoki survived that Meteor with nearly no defense. Nagato has defense beyond almost anyone. Tanking V2 Lariat with 0 damage BEFORE absorbing it.


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 16, 2019)

Probably when I first started posting the pro Jiriaya posters did a lot to convince me he was equal to Itachi

Reactions: Like 2


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2019)

I guess @kokodeshide point to shut down Turrin's nonsense
that if Minato's already had a tag on the battlefield, and Tobirama did not have one. 
Then that wouldn't prove anything on how Minato is better than Tobirama... 

I thought it was a neat point...


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## kokodeshide (Feb 16, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> How so? To my knowledge Madara is the only one to truly master it, sure nagato could use it with no drawbacks but he wasn't the original owner. Hence the reason he couldn't use the eyes to it's full potential.


The problem here is, Madara had plenty of opportunities to demonstrate Rinnegan mastery but never did. He used very few abilities. He didnt even have rinnegan for long anyway. Even sasuke couldnt master his Rinnegan right away, it took many years and I'm not sure even he has mastered it yet, BUT, he was able to use his special move right away. So Madara using limbo doesnt really matter in terms of mastery.
The other thing is, Nagato has used FOUR/FIVE rinnegan abilities at the same time. 
Animal for the chameleon holding Naruto
Hell for the king of hell with him
Human for when he was pulling narutos soul out
Asura when he cause Bee
Preta when he absorbed the Rasengan.
Madara has never demonstrated that level of skill with Rinnegan. Madara can use limbo ONLY because they are his eyes, not because he is more skilled. big difference.


Ishmael said:


> Madara was shown drawing metors with his rinnegan, that's a feat nagato cannot accomplish.


 And Nagato has CT which Madara only replicated as a JJ, he also could not replicate a village busting CST. He also hasn't replicated using multiple paths at the same time. Nagato uses it differently than Madara. you know what I mean?

Also, the meteor was also a jutsu using susano as well.


Ishmael said:


> His ninjutsu is lacking


In power, no, in diversity, sure.


Ishmael said:


> His taijutsu is as well


In technique, yes, in versatility and power, no.


Ishmael said:


> His speed is lacking


this is true.


Ishmael said:


> Durability is more than likely lacking too, there's no hype and feats going for him in terms of that.


Tanking V2 lariat is pretty good. Even Pain withstood a TBB without much issue.


Ishmael said:


> Reaction is lacking as well.


Nooooo, he reacted to a FRS point blank when he didnt even know it was coming, also reacted to Bee and Naruto and even reacted to itachis feint before anyone else.

Their reaction speed is at worst, equal.


Ishmael said:


> Nagato is strong but one would be lying if they tried to say he was strong outside of the capabilities that rinnegan grant. At least from what we've seen.


Very true, I don't debate that. the difference is, Nagato worked to master Rinnegan, like Kakashi worked to master Sharingan. Madara did nothing to gain his Rinnegan, it just happened because he is indras reincarnation and had asuras reincarnations dna. Madara also didn't do anything to gain a youthful body that also had rinnegan and mokuton, that was kabutos doing. 
Edo madara is far less deserving of his upgrades than nagato is his. 
But, that is a pointlesss argument anyway.


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## King1 (Feb 16, 2019)

I thought this was a thread about praising posters for making good points/arguments

Reactions: Like 1


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## kokodeshide (Feb 16, 2019)

King1 said:


> I thought this was a thread about praising posters for making good points/arguments


shhhhhh, we are having fun....


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## Ishmael (Feb 16, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> The problem here is, Madara had plenty of opportunities to demonstrate Rinnegan mastery but never did. He used very few abilities.



That's more so got to do with their circumstances and fighting style. Saying he never demonstrated rinnegan isn't right, some people have their bread and butter. Rinnegan didn't fit within that. 



kokodeshide said:


> The other thing is, Nagato has used FOUR/FIVE rinnegan abilities at the same time.



True but when was that hinted at meaning he mastered it? Or implied. The best logical case would be that's what you get when you aren't using the 6 paths. The abilities that rinnegan grants only this time it's one sole user than 6 dead bodies.



kokodeshide said:


> he also could not replicate a village busting CST



Again circumstances and fighting styles, no need for him to do so if he didn't feel the need. 



kokodeshide said:


> He also hasn't replicated using multiple paths at the same time. Nagato uses it differently than Madara. you know what I mean?



That's my whole point trying to take from Madara simply because he has a preferred fighting style and way of using rinnegan doesn't mean he isn't as skilled. 

Obito who imo is the most lack luster rinnegan user replicated the 6 paths feat because it's a feature of the rinnegan.



kokodeshide said:


> In power, no, in diversity, sure.



When has nagato showed a strong ninjutsu? Despite that hype from jiraiya which was because of the rinnegans help. 



kokodeshide said:


> In technique, yes, in versatility and power, no.



What's versatility and power without technique? Nagato lacks feats. 



kokodeshide said:


> Tanking V2 lariat is pretty good.



He sucked half the force that the chakra boost would've granted from the attack but I'll admit it is. The force and base power is still behind the lariat. 



kokodeshide said:


> Even Pain withstood a TBB without much issue.



We're speaking nagato though, not pein. 



kokodeshide said:


> Nooooo, he reacted to a FRS point blank when he didnt even know it was coming, also reacted to Bee and Naruto and even reacted to itachis feint before anyone else.
> 
> Their reaction speed is at worst, equal.



I'd have to go back and look at that myself. What were the chapters if you remember?

Madara dodged gaaras blindside attempt at capturing him with sand, reacted to a blindside teleportation attack and was reacting well to A4s speed, which was his top speed being used i believe. That trumps what nagato has shown us.


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 16, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> Probably when I first started posting the pro Jiriaya posters did a lot to convince me he was equal to Itachi



Itachi when Sick let me clarify

Reactions: Like 2


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> Itachi when Sick let me clarify



Good, I lifted my disagree for now.

Next time, you better check yourself before you wreck yourself. Don't make the same mistake again hun.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 16, 2019)

For recent arguments. Gotta rep The Death and the Strawberry: Sound Logic and Reason here.

Argued that Gamabunta was immune to genjutsu in battle, cause Baki wasn't affected in the split second his eyes were visible to the reader vs Susanoo Sasuke


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## ~Kakashi~ (Feb 16, 2019)

The best posts to me are the ones that you might disagree with but can see the logic behind/can understand the point of view, even if it doesn't ultimately change your opinion. Being able to look at something with a new light is always nice. @WorldsStongest tends to make a lot of posts like that for me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Good, I lifted my disagree for now.
> 
> Next time, you better check yourself before you wreck yourself. Don't make the same mistake again hun.


itachi is a fodder. Even part 1 Shikamaru was able to deal with Tayuya's Genjutsu on his own... 



Defeating the likes of Deidara (blitzed by Sai) and part 1 Kakashi (hype tool for literally every single villain) is not impressive. 



the important ones (Nagato & Kabuto) he was backed up (Naruto/B with the former, saved by being ET & EMS Sasuke with the other one)



thank you.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 16, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> The best posts to me are the ones that you might disagree with but can see the logic behind/can understand the point of view, even if it doesn't ultimately change your opinion. Being able to look at something with a new light is always nice. @WorldsStongest tends to make a lot of posts like that for me.



I'll also never forget the time you lied about Jiraiya using various abilities without hand seals. 

A great example of blatant sophistry _honest argumentation._


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## ~Kakashi~ (Feb 16, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> I'll also never forget the time you lied about Jiraiya using various abilities without hand seals.
> 
> A great example of blatant sophistry _honest argumentation._



I dunno dude, I said he could use certain katons and oil without hand seals and could manipulate his hair without handseals, both things he's done on panel.

You're the one that brought up Yomi Numa being used without hand seals even though that's something I never once mentioned. 

I'm not really sure what your issue is or why you're so angry all the time, but if debates on a naruto forum get you this upset, I'd hate to see how you react to things that actually matter in life. 

I tend to find portions of your posts to be informative, it's a shame this weird amount of anger has to come along with that.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 16, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> You're the one that brought up Yomi Numa being used without hand seals even though that's something I never once mentioned.



He's doing it again...



~Kakashi~ said:


> He also achieved using Yomi Numa without using either of the handseals that are listed as being required for it(





~Kakashi~ said:


> Animal and Human path jump over said katon and Human Path is caught in Yomi Numa without Jiraiya using any of the hand seals for it:



He claimed Jiraiya _achieved Yomi Numa without hand seals 
_
His evidence : A scan where the handseals are off panel : 
_

_
Another great example of lying out of your ass  intellectual honesty and candidacy


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## Ishmael (Feb 16, 2019)

I've come to conclusion that this simply isn't a place for positivity and where you can have a friendly thread without disagreements.

So you all leave me no choice but to solo not only this thread but the NBD


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 16, 2019)

So in the theme of this thread.

Special credit to @~Kakashi~ for lying about which techniques Jiraiya could use without seals. And then _lying _about whether or not he lied about in the first instance.


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## ~Kakashi~ (Feb 16, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> He's doing it again...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A post months ago or whatever, yes. And he did pull off Yomi Numa without showing hand seals in that fight. If you want to argue it's off-panel, then that's all you, I don't really care.

But I never mentioned it in our debate the other day, and it seemed you took "his fastest attack" as meaning Yomi Numa, which it's not. But if you were referencing some post months ago then I have no way of knowing that.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 16, 2019)

>_ I've never said yomi numa could be used without hand seals 
> Me showing you a post where you said exactly that _
> _But... That was months ago 
_


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 16, 2019)

And no, his hands being off the panel when the technique is activated does not show me he can use Yomi Numa without the seals required for it.


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## ~Kakashi~ (Feb 16, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> >_ I've never said yomi numa could be used without hand seals
> > Me showing you a post where you said exactly that _
> > _But... That was months ago _



I never mentioned yomi numa in our debate a few days ago. I shouldn't really need to spell all of this out for you, my friend. You were so stuck on that you ignored what you were even supposed to be refuting in my post in that debate.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> He's doing it again...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Link Removed*​


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## ~Kakashi~ (Feb 16, 2019)

Regardless, it seems I need to go through every post I've ever made in any naruto forum and make sure I edit out anything I might have changed my opinion on, otherwise it'll be brought up in some debate by Ziggy in a year. God forbid he ever find a post from when I believed Jiraiya = Itachi from years ago, he might have an aneurysm.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 16, 2019)

Maybe don't lie about the arguments you've made when a quick search can prove the opposite?


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 16, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> I edit out anything I might have changed my opinion on



Also lying about opinions he's changed given that you reiterated that opinion a couple minutes ago. 



~Kakashi~ said:


> , yes. And he did pull off Yomi Numa without showing hand seals in that fight.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 16, 2019)

His hands were off panel when the human path got stuck.

Either he weved the two needed there or set up the tech before the event as a trap. No evidence that he used the tech without hand seals though.


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## Ultrafragor (Feb 16, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> And why wouldn't that be the case?



His hands are out to the side before and after the page when he used the small yomi numa.

When the three Pains arrived, he came off of the wall and spit out Giant Flame Bombs without any hand seals.


Burden is on you to prove Jiraiya is suddenly restricted to hand-seals only when there's no indication his hands moved to make seals and we already saw him use a larger elemental jutsu with no seals.

Let me save you the trouble, you can't fucking prove it. Nothing you do can _prove_ that he made hand seals off panel.

There's no argument to prove this jutsu needs hand seals when a drugged Jiraiya, who couldn't even use kuchiyose, created a much much larger swamp with a single hand sign in part 1. Based on that, this jutsu is simple as fuck for even base Jiraiya, but you're trying to say SM Jiraiya needs hand signs for it?

This thread is not for you.


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## MaruUchiha (Feb 16, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I BELIEVE it was @Esano who simply pointed out that its straight up stated that Madara was the most powerful edo...Not Nagato or Itachi.
> 
> Which was a very straightforward and obvious way to shut down wankers. I liked it.
> 
> Ill add more later


That's cool but Edo Madara >>> EMS Madara


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 16, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> His hands are out to the side before and after the page when he used the small yomi numa.



Doesn't mean shit.

For example, Jman uses hand seals to activate the lion mane here

*Link Removed*

But doesn't need to maintain any hand sings while the jutsu is active

*Link Removed*

So what Jiraiya's hands are doing "before and after" the activation of Yomi Numa is irrelevant and inconsequential. You're basically a fucking idiot for thinking this implies no hand seals were weved given that the utility of most techniques would become useless if hands needed to be constantly bound during the sustainment of any given tech. But alas, this is the guy who thinks Databook stats prove who is stronger than who (kurenia > Garra)



Ultrafragor said:


> When the three Pains arrived, he came off of the wall and spit out Giant Flame Bombs without any hand seals.



No Hand seals are specified by the databook for the Giant Flame bombs. They are for Yomi Numa. Next.



Ultrafragor said:


> There's no argument to prove this jutsu needs hand seals when a drugged Jiraiya, who couldn't even use kuchiyose, created a much much larger swamp with a single hand sign in part 1.



Him using the tech _with hand seals _at some other arbitrary point, regardless of the size, is not proof that he can use the technique _without them.  _And no friend, given that the majority of ninjutsu specified as needing them (yomi numa included) are activated with hand seals - bar a few exceptions - the burden of proof is on you to prove the positive - ie Jiraiya can use any tech without them. The panel of him using Yomi numa against the path doesn't show me that. It shows me a picture of his face with his hands off panel. So I'll leave you with your own advice :



Ultrafragor said:


> This thread is not for you.


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## Ultrafragor (Feb 16, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Doesn't mean shit.
> 
> For example, Jman uses hand seals to activate the lion mane here
> 
> ...



Look at you, trying to dig up some dirt. I've never argued based on databook stats and it looks like my point when speaking about them (in the fucking thread about what they mean) went way over your simple bitch head. 

You trying to change your argument mid-way? I'm not accepting that. 

You came into this discussion with a weak ass argument that made no sense, now you're trying to change it after I made you go double check what hand signs Jiraiya used in part 1.

I'm glad you found your way to an interpretation that makes sense, but that doesn't change the fact that you came in here talking shit when your own ideas were garbage.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 16, 2019)

Turrin's old arguments from many moons ago that convinced me of Jiraiya = Itachi but alas... those days are long over and now he believes a hypothetical healthy Itachi is a tier above Jiraiya and that Tobirama is a tier above Minato...

Reactions: Like 4


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## Bonly (Feb 16, 2019)

A good one I saw was where an idiot takes Edo Itachi using Ama and Nagato sensing it thus he thinks anybody with sensing can avoid it yet ignore all the other times Ama was used faster or ignores how Sage Mode Kabuto didn't sense it. Can't get any better then that lol


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## Tri (Feb 16, 2019)

mine

Reactions: Like 3


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 16, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> I'm glad you found your way to an interpretation that makes sense



Concession accepted.



> but that doesn't change the fact that you came in here talking shit when your own ideas were garbage.





The Delusion, considering whenever our wires cross it's with me debunking some hilarious idea of your making. I.E - Gaara's third eye is just like Nagato's paths of pain etc. But for a minute let's just focus on the _garbage ideas _you've concocted in this thread alone :

> Jiraiya needs to maintain hand seals before and after a technique is used
> The pages before and after Yomi Numa was cast prove Jiraiya didn't make hand seals for the jutsu
> Becuase he used Flame bombs, a tech that doesn't specify required hand seals via databook, means Yomi Numa was also cast without them
> The fact he used the tech in part one _with hand seals_ means he can do so without hand seals in a better condition
> It's up to me to prove a negative

A premier example of stones thrown in glass houses. To the contrary, every post I've ever seen you make is a massive crock of shit. And I expect your posting history doesn't differ much from said standard. As for an idea that isn't Garbage :  *omission is not contradiction.* Comics have never been expected to provide every last piece of continuous information within the story, which is true either Naruto or literature in general. The fact that the manga is a medium of static drawings means that every bit of action _cannot_ be documented. So... we can fill in the blanks with imaginative moments based on standards set in the series. As a standard, the vast majority of ninjutsu requires seals to be actioned. There are exceptions: Kakashi's Raikiri and some others. The onus for Jiriaya's Yomi Numa being an _exception _as opposed to the norm is on you to prove. An image of Jiraiya using Yomi Numa with his face, and not his hands on panel, isn't proof.

So you should take your own advice :



Ultrafragor said:


> This thread is not for you.


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## Ultrafragor (Feb 16, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Concession accepted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're grasping. 

Jutsu that have hand signs designated for them dont require hand signs if the user is experienced.

Which is why it was dumb to bring up Kakashi since Raikiri and chidori have hand signs in part 1, but Sasuke and Kakashi learn to perform them without it by shippuden (I thought of not giving an example, but you'd probably be dumb enough to ask for one later, so...)

It's a dumb topic for you to argue, regardless of whether or not Jiraiya used hand signs for this specific jutsu. 

As a matter of fact, underworld swamp has two hand signs listed for it, but we only ever see Jiraiya use one. 

So now you're setting an arbitrary limit of "Jiraiya can cut it down to just one hand sign, but no more than that!" which is pointless.

But let me stick to the point here: you talk shit while debating dumb ideas like assuming offscreen events *must* have happened just to make the world fit into your interpretation of events. Even when it contradicts general knowledge about how hand signs work in the manga. 

Or, worse, being led to the answer by someone and trying to pretend you figured it out on your own and still talking shit to them. 

This is the guy y'all want on the NF debate team


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## wooly Eullerex (Feb 17, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Technically Madara was not called the strongest Edo, but being Kabuto's "trump card" the implication is clear that they are talking about power considering what the edo's were being used for.


its not power, no.

its referring to plot relevance an antagonism


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Turrin's old arguments from many moons ago that convinced me of Jiraiya = Itachi but alas... those days are long over and now he believes a hypothetical healthy Itachi is a tier above Jiraiya and that Tobirama is a tier above Minato...



@Turrin 's arguments are the best arguments in recent history... 

I am honestly waiting for him to returned in that Minato Vs Tobirama thread. I prepared for him some good feats.. 

(although I know he will say b-bb-b-bbbbuuuut this, but that... it does not count!  )
but it's worth to see what excuses is he going to pull next...


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## Hi no Ishi (Feb 17, 2019)

Rofl at "he must have done x off panel, because I feel it to be so, but other people have stupid arguments though, and it's _them_ who is dishonest"


This place cracks me up some days.

Reactions: Like 2


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## ~Kakashi~ (Feb 17, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Rofl at "he must have done x off panel, because I feel it to be so, but other people have stupid arguments though, and it's _them_ who is dishonest"
> 
> 
> This place cracks me up some days.



He's just a troll. An effective one, but one none the less.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Rofl at "he must have done x off panel, because I feel it to be so, but other people have stupid arguments though, and it's _them_ who is dishonest"
> 
> 
> This place cracks me up some days.



Tobirama always did the best (when he was at a HUGE disadvantage) off-panel.

But the rest of the characters (Hiruzen for example) did what they did because they have all the advantages that they need, off-panel.

That's why @Turrin is the best

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Kakashi~ (Feb 17, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Also lying about opinions he's changed given that you reiterated that opinion a couple minutes ago.



I never said in that post that I changed my opinion on yomi numa, my friend. Just speaking in general.


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 17, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Turrin's old arguments from many moons ago that convinced me of Jiraiya = Itachi but alas... those days are long over and now he believes a hypothetical healthy Itachi is a tier above Jiraiya and that Tobirama is a tier above Minato...


Turrin has been retconeed


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## Santoryu (Feb 17, 2019)

Tsunade regrowing a head was a cool one


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 17, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> Jutsu that have hand signs designated for them dont require hand signs if the user is experienced.




Well...

That's just not true at all.

*Link Removed*

*Link Removed*


_Experienced_ Shinobi still using one or more hand seals for jutsu that require them.  If they weren't a prerequisite, it would be much easier to use _none_. That way they'd save time... and not telegraph their attacks to the enemy so easily. But before you claim Hiruzen is actually just weaving shapes for the lols. Take note of his acknowledgement of their importance here :


*Link Removed*


What is this? Hiruzen takes away a large chunk of Orochimaur's ninjutsu because of the simple fact he has no hands to use them? According to you this scene, which is a major plot point in other arcs, is a useless gesture because of Orochimaru's _experience_. Well that clearly isn't the case for Oro or Hiruzen. The former having as much experience as jiriaya, with the latter having a generations worth more.


*Link Removed*


No hand seals would have been extremely beneficial to the experienced rinnegan user above

*Link Removed*

The same goes for Danzo, another person with _more experience_ than Jriaiya. He clearly needed hand seals to save himself above. Yet we do not see him use those hand seals everytime Izanagi is activated (a total of ten times vs Sasuke). It doesn't mean hand seals aren't a requirement. They are.  it just means they were done off panel.



Ultrafragor said:


> it was dumb to bring up Kakashi since Raikiri and chidori have hand signs in part 1, but Sasuke and Kakashi learn to perform them without it by shippuden



I was always aware that Rakiri has been used with or without hand seals. Which is why I mentioned them as the _*exception that proves the rule*_. For example,_ Kakashi uses Raikiri *without* hand seals in early part one,_ but that still doesn't prove that _experienced shinobi_ will never need them for any given technique - See orochimaru being screwed by Hiruzen above. It just means that Kakashi has a special relationship with Raikiri compared to jutsu he still uses hand signs for :


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




And of course, Raikiri is Kakashi's baby. His most developed tech. His signature and only original move. A move in accordance to his natural affinity - lighting.  Can you prove that Earth Style is Jiriaya's Affinity (when it's much more likely to be fire)? Can you prove Yomi Numa is Jiraiya's Raikiri?



Ultrafragor said:


> So now you're setting an arbitrary limit of "Jiraiya can cut it down to just one hand sign, but no more than that!" which is pointless.



Well It's not pointless. It's literally the difference between a technique being activated or not. For example, Both Hiruzen and Orochimaru are seen using one hand sign for various moves. Yet Hiruzen still takes Orochimauru's arms knowing the justus he uses hand signs for are no longer at his disposal. Quite clearly, the difference between only using one hand seals and no hand seals at all, is pretty significant.



Ultrafragor said:


> But let me stick to the point here: you talk shit while debating dumb ideas like assuming offscreen events *must* have happened just to make the world fit into your interpretation of events. Even when it contradicts general knowledge about how hand signs work in the manga.



Well, general knowledge in the manga is that the vast majority of that ninjutsu requiring hand seals _are used with hand seals_. Just because there's a special exception for Kakashi's Raikiri, does not disprove the general rule. Which is something I already noted. It is also true that not every spec of information has to be on panel.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 17, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Rofl at "he must have done x off panel, because I feel it to be so, but other people have stupid arguments though, and it's _them_ who is dishonest"



Not every spec of information is on panel. This is pretty much a well known limitation of any medium. But comics in particular given that writers have a limited amount of time to depict events with still images. For example :

*Link Removed*

> Danzo clearly needs 3 hand seals for Izangani.
> he activates the jutsu a total of ten times
> We do not see him use those hand seals at ten different times.

The Manga doesn't need to show them. Because we know they're done off panel. Just like we don't need to see the Jiriaya using seals for yomi Numa when he's done so in Part one.

Some events are left to off panel interpretation. duh.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 17, 2019)

To wrap things up.

The vast majority of jutsu's are done with hand seals

*Link Removed*

> Yomi numa is listed as a jutsu that requires hand seals (see databook)
> Hand seals do not always have to be on panel(see danzo vs sasuke)
> Comic books do not have to always show every bit of action and never have
> Kakashi's Raikiri does not disprove a general rule of thumb
> Yomi Numa is not Raikiri
> If we're presented with an image of Yomi Numa being activated with Jiriaya's hands not in the frame, we can make assumptions to what his hands are doing


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## SakuraLover16 (Feb 17, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> Jutsu that have hand signs designated for them dont require hand signs if the user is experienced.
> 
> Which is why it was dumb to bring up Kakashi since Raikiri and chidori have hand signs in part 1, but Sasuke and Kakashi learn to perform them without it by shippuden (I thought of not giving an example, but you'd probably be dumb enough to ask for one later, so...)


Didn't creation rebirth also require hand signs? I don't think I saw Tsunade use them when she was first pierced by Madara yet it was activated.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 17, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Didn't creation rebirth also require hand signs? I don't think I saw Tsunade use them when she was first pierced by Madara yet it was activated.



Bottom left corner :

*Link Removed*


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## SakuraLover16 (Feb 17, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Bottom left corner :
> 
> *Link Removed*


What chapter is this?


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 17, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> What chapter is this?



Chapter 577 page 1. It's the page directly before this :


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## Topace (Feb 17, 2019)

Wood Style: Cutting Sprigs shredding Gaara defense was a good one.


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## Ishmael (Feb 17, 2019)

NBD got some petty posters

Reactions: Like 2


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## LostSelf (Feb 17, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> The majestic and flawless argument that asserts Kakashi's Kamui cannot kill a Kage-level shinobi because he didn't use to kill anyone on panel.



That's because we didn't read the manga. We missed the chapters where WA Kakashi fought Kakuzu, Pain and Deidara.


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## SakuraLover16 (Feb 17, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Chapter 577 page 1. It's the page directly before this :


Ooh she did use a hand seal. My mistake I thought she hadn't activated it until she after she was stabbed I got it confused with the wood clone one.


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## Hi no Ishi (Feb 17, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Not every spec of information is on panel. This is pretty much a well known limitation of any medium. But comics in particular given that writers have a limited amount of time to depict events with still images. For example :
> 
> *Link Removed*
> 
> ...





Ziggy Stardust said:


> To wrap things up.
> 
> The vast majority of jutsu's are done with hand seals
> 
> ...


You under stand that even in the panel you posted it actually shows him doing the seals and has a sound effect for it, right?
Everyone can clearly tell he is doing seals in the bottom left corner.

This it not the case with Jiraiya. 
In fact, his arms are outstretched both before  

And after.



There is 0 evidence to say he put his hands together in between panels and then took them apart again to return to the same position.

So yes, he caught a Kage level who had near to full knowledge on Jiraiya's jutsu with Yomi Numa while outnumbered and there is no evidence that he used hand seals and in fact clear showings that his hands weren't together before and after.

Your assumptions are not valid here, and certainly not something so solid as to try to trash talk others about them, friend.


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## Ishmael (Feb 17, 2019)

Wait people are debating if yomi numa requires hand seals?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ishmael (Feb 17, 2019)




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## The Great One (Feb 17, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> This also is iffy, looking at Madaras fight there's not much suggesting his boost were shown until later on. We see him gaining the Senjutsu boost that he in his previous life plotted on doing, and the JJ boost he got as well.
> 
> He performed well against the Gokage with things he had in his possession during his previous life. He had rinnegan, he had the PS and EMS and that's what helped him and was implied to be behind even the Gokages power.
> 
> Sure he had those boost but they were boost plotted on by him before many of the shinobi in the war arc were born. It's Naruto, the power creep is always there and will continue, said boost just like everyone else were receiving waa necessary to keep him in the ball game.


Can you post a panel of EMS Madara with PS.


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## Ishmael (Feb 17, 2019)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Can you post a panel of EMS Madara with PS.



Can you post a scan of obito with kamui?


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## Ishmael (Feb 17, 2019)

Type of shit is that lmao


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 17, 2019)

Hi no Ishi said:


> You under stand that even in the panel you posted it actually shows him doing the seals and has a sound effect for it, right? Everyone can clearly tell he is doing seals in the bottom left corner.



...

Um..

no....

That's not what's happening here :

*Link Removed*

He can't we've hand seals because the arrow is too fast. This is pretty black and white.

The *wump* *wump* sfx are the  he uses as a last resort to re-direct the arrow. And unlike Yomi Numa it's used without hand seals. In the next scan you literally see a giant tree protruding from his shoulder which explains the sound effects :

*Link Removed*

Generally speaking Hin no Ishi, if someone says they can't weave hand seals in time, _it probably means they can't weave hand seals in time_.
What this scan does prove however is that :

- Danzo needs hand seals to activate Izangai
- We know, as a matter of fact, he uses Izanagi ten times against Sasuke. One for each eye on his arm
- We don't see him waving the hand seals on ten different occasions however

So even though we didn't see it happen on panel, it just proves that various events can happen off panel. The same goes for hand seals that activate Yomi Numa.



Hi no Ishi said:


> This it not the case with Jiraiya. n fact, his arms are outstretched both before and after



I've addressed this. What his arms are doing before and after the activation of any technique is inconsequential.

Jiriaya uses the lions mane here  :

*Link Removed*

His arms are to his side directly afterwards :

*Link Removed*

The activation of jutsu doesn't often require people to maintain hand signs forever. Numerous examples. The one above suffices.




Hi no Ishi said:


> There is 0 evidence to say he put his hands together in between panels and then took them apart again to return to the same position.



There is certainly evidence. The majority of jutsu that require hand seals are necessitated by hand seals - which some very rare exceptions - Kakashi's Raikiri. Which is why Orochimaru was gimped for most of the series when Hiruzen took his arms. The databook states Yomi Numa needs hand seals. It's expected by norms of the manga that he uses hand seals to activate this technique. So in other words, I don't need to see his hands on the panel to know what he's doing. Either that, or he set up Yomi Numa as a trap before hand. There is, however, zero prove he used Yomi Numa without them.



Hi no Ishi said:


> Your assumptions are not valid here, and certainly not something so solid as to try to trash talk others about them, friend.





Given that I haven't made a single mistake while debating this, and I'm not the guy who claimed Danzo was weaving hand seals when it's in black and white stated otherwise, I think I have every right to trash talk.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 17, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Wait people are debating if yomi numa requires hand seals?



They're trying to give Jiraiya a feat he hasn't earned again.


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## The Great One (Feb 17, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Can you post a scan of obito with kamui?


Yes.


Now it's your turn.

- EMS Madara.
- PS.

Post the panel.

And don't post Madara using Susanoo on Kyuubi or something, post a specific panel of EMS Madara using PS.


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## Ishmael (Feb 17, 2019)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> Now it's your turn.
> ...



You're seriously suggesting Madara didn't have PS?


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## The Great One (Feb 17, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> You're seriously suggesting Madara didn't have PS?


Yes he didn't.

Because every time PS shown on screen user had either Rinnegan(Madara/Sasuke) or Rikudou chakra(Kakashi)... Not EMS.

Want to prove me wrong? Post a panel of EMS Madara using PS.


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## Ishmael (Feb 17, 2019)

@Batzzaro29 well then, here's the verdict, Madara has EMS and PS, we know that he has it and has had it before due to him using it against the Gokage.

 We know he's had it before due to previous statements and the fact that we know once susanoo has been unlocked as long as the user has the chakra to do so they can manifest it.



Statement "it it said that anyone who has seen it dies" suggesting that it's been brought out before and it's been used. 



Batzzaro29 said:


> Because every time PS shown on screen user had either Rinnegan or Rikudou chakra... Not EMS.



Ms+ eyes aren't required to manifest susanoo. So trying to pull this is bs.


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## Bonly (Feb 17, 2019)

Some other good ones I've seen.

War arc Kakashi is quick to use Kamui very early in the fight even though in the manga he didn't even think about using Kamui until he was going get nuked to hell by the Bijuu and then he didn't think about using until he found out the Gedo was gonna turn into the Juubi.

Sensors being able to sense an attack coming and are able to set up a defense before it happens even though it doesn't happen in the manga. That's a real good one.

And the recently Itachi wasn't really sick, it's something his fandom made up. Pure genius

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ishmael (Feb 17, 2019)

Bonly said:


> And the recently Itachi wasn't really sick, it's something his fandom made up. Pure genius



Post the scans of him in the hospital


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## ~Kakashi~ (Feb 17, 2019)

Kishimoto is a fan of Itachi, so yes, technically his fandom did make it up.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 17, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> Kishimoto is a fan of Itachi, so yes, technically his fandom did make it up.



Made by the fans for the fans. Itachi's illness was canonised in pt 2.

But I'll tell what wasn't canonised. Jiraiya using Yomi Numa and Lions Mane without hand seals


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## ~Kakashi~ (Feb 17, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Made by the fans for the fans. Itachi's illness was canonised in pt 2.
> 
> But, I'll tell what wasn't canonised. Jiraiya using Yomi Numa and Lions Mane without hand seals



Pain states Jiraiya could have potentially beaten him with knowledge. Naruto canonically couldn't beat him with knowledge. Therefor, Jiraiya > Pain > Itachi............................

.....
.........
..............

> Hebi Sasuke

It's canon.




*Spoiler*: __ 



before someone takes this seriously because god knows someone will, no, I'm not serious


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## oiety (Feb 17, 2019)

@Hi no Ishi and @NightingaleOfShadows convinced me of Konan's bomb making abilities. I remember one of you pulling out actual math that was like "If she spent a month making her 100 billion bombs, then she must have been making 38,000 of them per second assuming she devoted every second of that month to them" and that solidified it for me-can't really agree with the "she bought them" thing because, of course, from where could you purchase that many?

In any case whenever I recall to nowadays I organize Akatsuki like Obito>=Pain>Itachi>Orochimaru>Konan>the rest.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 17, 2019)

@Hi no Ishi get's a special mention for insightfulness.
Arguing Danzo (bottom left corner) was actually making hand seals even when he says he can't in the other panel

*Link Removed*


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## SakuraLover16 (Feb 17, 2019)

The salt in these threads would shrivel 10% of Katsuyu.


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## Bonly (Feb 17, 2019)

Can't forget about the great point of Sakura being on par with EMS Sasuke and BM Naruto


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Feb 17, 2019)

@FlamingRain convinced me that an Edo Orochimaru could emulate Edo Gengetsu’s performance.

@Turrin has an essay every year that changes my mind on something.


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## Ultrafragor (Feb 17, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Well...
> 
> That's just not true at all.
> 
> ...



Ninjutsu do not "require" hand signs.

Hand signs are a general ninjutsu tool that help the user mold chakra.

People will use hand signs for anything, not just jutsu. Simply creating chakra and not even using it for anything has been shown to be aided by hand signs. 

The hand signs help the jutsu, but they aren't required for it.

Rather, a certain user requires hand signs for any given jutsu.




For something to be an exception that proves a rule, you'd have to show that Raikiri actually is an exception. Rather than immediately switching gears when presented with contradictory evidence and trying to claim that being contradicted somehow makes your point stronger.

It's not a rule that there must be an exception to every rule.

What you're doing is trying to eliminate an outlier. You're only allowed to eliminate one outlier per dataset before the dataset is made  inconclusive by the author selectively editing out contradictory data pieces.

You need to show that Raikiri is pointed out as an exception, not just try to claim it is to pretend your argument makes sense. The manga must name Raikiri as a special jutsu that doesn't require hand seals before you use your own personal interpretation to say it's an outlier that can be excluded from other jutsu. Otherwise, you're using headcanon.


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## The Great One (Feb 17, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> @Batzzaro29 well then, here's the verdict, Madara has EMS and PS, we know that he has it and has had it before due to him using it against the Gokage.
> 
> We know he's had it before due to previous statements and the fact that we know once susanoo has been unlocked as long as the user has the chakra to do so they can manifest it.
> 
> ...


That statement was either bs or Madara gloating Considering Hashirama did not died after seeing Susanoo. 

Here the questions if EMS Madara had PS then why Kishi did not even bothered to show it during EMS Madara vs Hashirama flash back?

And why every time PS is shown user either had Rinnegan or Rikudou chakra?


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 17, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> The best posts to me are the ones that you might disagree with but can see the logic behind/can understand the point of view, even if it doesn't ultimately change your opinion. Being able to look at something with a new light is always nice. @WorldsStongest tends to make a lot of posts like that for me.


Thenks man :blu


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2019)

I think one of the best arguments I've read is when Troyse22 tried arguing that Kisame's five feeding sharks could actually defeat BM Naruto's clones, the same clones that can grapple with Madara's Susano'o and redirect five Bijuudama nigh instantaneously with Shunshin. That was a good read.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 17, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> That's cool but Edo Madara >>> EMS Madara


Your headcanon is cool and all but you really should leaen to read

And/or retain simple infomrtaion

EMS Madara > Edo Madara stats wise child

Stated by the man who fought BOTH to the effective death...HE knows what hes talking about


Ishmael said:


> NBD got some petty posters


Bruh the NBD ITSELF is petty


Batzzaro29 said:


> Now it's your turn.
> 
> - EMS Madara.
> - PS.
> ...


Annnnd batz back in here with the trash

As @Ishmael already pointed out to you...Madara flat out states PS has a history of OTHER PEOPLE SEEING IT in his FIRST BATTLE AS AN EDO

He NEEDED to have had PS before becoming an Edo for him to make that line.

Also...You dont think its fucking odd that Hashirama would have encountered PS for the very first damn time here and said NOTHING about it??? 

 ...

No "What the fuck Madara? You got a new form of Susanoo now? It looks completely different from last time!"

But sure man...Madara doesnt have PS...

The PINNACLE OF SHARINGAN is LITERALLY UNATTAINABLE unless you have RINNEGAN...Makes fucking loads of sense 

You believe whatever helps you sleep at night 


Batzzaro29 said:


> don't post Madara using Susanoo on Kyuubi or something, post a specific panel of EMS Madara using PS.


> "Hurp prove me wrong"
> "durp not that way tho"

Iso is stated to be PS wrapped around Kurama kiddo 

Its literally never NOT been PS

Manga doesnt care about your damage control


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## MaruUchiha (Feb 17, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> EMS Madara > Edo Madara stats wise child


Huh??? In which galaxy??


WorldsStrongest said:


> Stated by the man who fought BOTH to the effective death...HE knows what hes talking about


Here you go with this shit again claiming Hashirama would ever imply EMS Madara > Sage Mode EMS Madara with Hashirama boob


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Huh??? In which galaxy??
> 
> Here you go with this shit again claiming Hashirama would ever imply EMS Madara > Sage Mode EMS Madara with Hashirama boob



Madz was completely blind tho.


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## The Great One (Feb 17, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Your headcanon is cool and all but you really should leaen to read
> 
> And/or retain simple infomrtaion
> 
> ...


Edo Madara > EMS Madara in stats kid.

Since when alive Madara was amped by hashi cell and Sage Mode? Which Rinne Tensei Madara was.

No he does not, Hashirama was a hype tool.

It basically impossible for EMS Madara to be > Rinne Tensei Madara when former lacked Hashicell.

Here World'smoron showing he lacks brain cells for any logical thinking just like EMS Madara lacked Hashi cells.

Madara also stated that anyone who has seen PS died, considering Hashirama was alive after Vote means PS was not used there.

Hashirama said nothing about Madara having Wood Release and Rinnegan as well, which means Madara also had those powers during vote right?

Pinnacle of Sharingan? Ok

Post a panel of EMS Madara using PS.

Taken from wiki.

The user  their  into an armour for , enhancing its defence and preventing its  from being . Kurama can wield Susanoo's bladed weaponry as well as combine it with its own  to give the latter cutting power, making them impossible to catch.

There is no mention of PS but Susanoo which can be any level.

So no Madara warping Kyuubi with Susanoo does not mean he had PS.

Also here...


In adulthood, Sasuke retained the ability to manifest a partial armour similar to the form his Complete Body — Susanoo took after it absorbed the Tailed Beast chakra.
Only guy who can use PS armour on Kurama/KA is Adult Sasuke.



Which means neither EMS Madara or EMS Sasuke used PS armour during iso creation.


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## Ishmael (Feb 18, 2019)

Batzzaro29 said:


> That statement was either bs



I gave evidence that supports my side of things. It's up to you to take it and from the looks of it you aren't. 



Batzzaro29 said:


> Madara gloating Considering Hashirama did not died after seeing Susanoo.



Hashi was stated to be the only one capable of stopping him so it makes sense as to why this wasn't the case for him.



Batzzaro29 said:


> Here the questions if EMS Madara had PS then why Kishi did not even bothered to show it during EMS Madara vs Hashirama flash back?



Something you'll have to take up with kishi, does he have a Twitter?


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## The Great One (Feb 18, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> I gave evidence that supports my side of things. It's up to you to take it and from the looks of it you aren't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He said that when he had Rinnegan, which he did not had when he was alive. 

Also here this how ISO armour with PS looks... 


Which neither EMS Madara's or Sasuke's ISO resembles to. 

Which is another proof of EMS Madara not having PS.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2019)

Batzzaro29 said:


> He said that when he had Rinnegan, which he did not had when he was alive.
> 
> Also here this how ISO armour with PS looks...
> 
> ...



 Red is a very nice color on you. Definitely deserved.


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## Ishmael (Feb 18, 2019)

Batzzaro29 said:


> And why every time PS is shown user either had Rinnegan or Rikudou chakra?



Maybe because it would defeat the purpose of kishi going out of his way to show us that the user doesn't need eyes. Or MS active to manifest it after it's been unlocked.


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## Ishmael (Feb 18, 2019)

Batzzaro29 said:


> He said that when he had Rinnegan, which he did not had when he was alive.



Maybe because that's the eye tech that he was using to fight the Gokage. We didn't see any other MS tech from him. So I mean why sit with it active when all he had was susanoo from it?


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## Ishmael (Feb 18, 2019)

Statement legit implies that the guy had it and has used it, he still tries to argue against what we received in the manga.

Have fun sunny boy.  I like debating but not just because.


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## The Great One (Feb 18, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Maybe because it would defeat the purpose of kishi going out of his way to show us that the user doesn't need eyes. Or MS active to manifest it after it's been unlocked.


The was Kishi way of saying that EMS does not grant PS.

Which is why ISO in Boruto looks like this...

This is a ISO created by using PS.

Iso created by not using PS.


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## SakuraLover16 (Feb 18, 2019)

Madara had perfect Susanoo it was said to rival a bijuu. If I'm not mistaken he cloaked Kurama with it as well. He also showed it to the Gokage.


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## MaruUchiha (Feb 18, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Madz was completely blind tho.


He had no eyes but wasn't blind.. Besides that's completely irrelevant since he still has EMS Madara's body and ablities.. Even if you were right are you trying to say EMS Madara > Sage Mode Madara with Hashirama boob or that Hashirama would ever imply such nonsense?


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## Ultrafragor (Feb 18, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Well...
> 
> That's just not true at all.
> 
> ...



I have more problems with your argument:

Where are you seeing that hand seals are listed as required in the databooks? I just did a quick scan through the databooks and didn't see a section where hand signs were listed by the jutsu in any of the databooks.

To my knowledge, the Naruto Wiki simply lists hand signs for jutsu based on what we see in the manga when jutsu are performed.



Besides that, the jutsu Mystical Palm and Chakra Scalpel both were used with hand signs in part 1, by extremely talented medical nin no less. 

In shippuden, Sakura creates both chakra scalpel and mystical palm without hand signs when trying to save Naruto after the kyuubi is extracted.

So there's two more jutsu that break the rule you think exists.


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## Grinningfox (Feb 18, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> I have more problems with your argument:
> 
> Where are you seeing that hand seals are listed as required in the databooks? I just did a quick scan through the databooks and didn't see a section where hand signs were listed by the jutsu in any of the databooks.
> 
> ...



Also both Boruto and Mitsuki have used jutsu without signs


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## ~Kakashi~ (Feb 18, 2019)

Hand seals are the most inconsistent aspect of a manga full of inconsistencies. I dunno why anyone bothers arguing about them.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 18, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Huh??? In which galaxy??


Clearly not your special snowflake one obviously


MaruUchiha said:


> Here you go with this shit again claiming Hashirama would ever imply


No no no

Hashi didnt IMPLY anything

Hashi BLATANTLY AND OUTRIGHT STATES that PAST madara > Anything Madara had done up to that point as an edo or an RT even.


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## SakuraLover16 (Feb 18, 2019)

I think it's fair to say that Kishi contradicted himself.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 18, 2019)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Edo Madara > EMS Madara in stats kid.


Read the manga

No he isnt

SM Madara > RT Madara = EMS Madara > Edo Madara


Batzzaro29 said:


> It basically impossible for EMS Madara to be > Rinne Tensei Madara


Except I never said RT was inferior

I said Edo was

So now youre being a fucking moron and twisting my words

Hashirama blatantly relates RTs performance to something Madara would have been capable of in the past, and he states hes "regaining it" which means he DIDNT PREVIOUSLY HAVE IT which means EDO IS WEAKER.

GEE ITS ALMOST LIKE ITS A FUCKING STAPLE OF EDO TENSEI TO REVIVE PEOPLE AT LESS THAN THEIR FULL POWER OR SOMETHING

Jesus christ dude

Grow a brain


Batzzaro29 said:


> Here World'smoron showing he lacks brain cells


No my brain cells work fine asshat

Because I can comprehend basic english in a manga meant for 12 year olds

You however cannot


Batzzaro29 said:


> Madara also stated that anyone who has seen PS died, considering Hashirama was alive after Vote means PS was not used there.


Hashirama being literally the exception to every rule as hes the only guy who ever defeated Madara in anything

Also Hashirama DOES die...Madara didnt lie about that 


Batzzaro29 said:


> Taken from* wiki.*


Trash

Cant even fucking think your own thoughts or come up with your own rguments anymore 

So youre gonna use the arguments of LITERAL NOBIDES to supplement your argument

ANYBODY can post on the wiki genius...I could go edit it right now and say "By the way, anything you ever see a guy named Batzzarro claim bout naruto? Absolute cancer. Ignore him on principle" and then claim thats a direct quote from Kishi...

Does it make it accurate? Maybe it should be No...No it doesnt...


Batzzaro29 said:


> Pinnacle of Sharingan? Ok
> 
> Post a panel of EMS Madara using PS.


Iso is PS no matter how twisted your panties get about it


Batzzaro29 said:


> Taken from wiki.


Lol again at citing the wiki as a credible source


Batzzaro29 said:


> The user  their  into an armour for , enhancing its defence and preventing its  from being . Kurama can wield Susanoo's bladed weaponry as well as combine it with its own  to give the latter cutting power, making them impossible to catch.


Literally none of this debunks it being PS you moron 

> "Hurr its shaped around Kurama"
> How does this mean its not PS?

>"Durr enhanced defense"
> Still something PS does

> "Durr Kuramas chakra cant be suppressed"
> Still a thing PS can do

> "Kurama wields blades"
> PS has blades doesnt it? 

None of it debunks PS

You resort to the garbage tier wiki as an embarrassment to yourself and anyone reading your nonsense and you still cant back your premise 


Batzzaro29 said:


> So no Madara warping Kyuubi with Susanoo does not mean he had PS.


Yes it does

Because its confirmed to be PS, and FUCKING LOOK AT IT ARE YOU BLIND

No other form of Susanoo is THAT FUCKING BIG FOR ONE THING

For another, no other form of Susanoo uses PS BLADES ASIDE FROM PS


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 18, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I think it's fair to say that Kishi contradicted himself.


Theres nothing contradictory about an Edo being weaker than itself when alive

Thats blatanly how Edo works


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## Kagutsutchi (Feb 18, 2019)

@worldstrongest But how the hell does Edo madara being weaker than alive ems madara based on hashirama's(a dude who loves the uchiha despite killing them) statement mean shit? Edo madara still has infinite refills which alone should put him above alive ems madara.

 On top of that, he can use jutsu that ems madara dares not(tenga shinsei), has chakra absorption and wood release. All of which ems didn't have at all.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 18, 2019)

Kamalu said:


> But how the hell does Edo madara being weaker than alive ems madara based on hashirama's(a dude who loves the uchiha despite killing them) statement mean shit?


How doesnt it?

Hashirama is THE authority on Madaras power...Hes faced it throughout his entire life and always been above it, he can objectively state where Madaras ceiling is better than any other person who has encountered Madara.

If Hashi says that EMS is physically capable of more than Edo is, than EMS is physically capable of more than edo is.

Thats also a given of Edo Tensei, to revive people at less than their peak. REALLY shouldnt come as a shock to people.



Kamalu said:


> On top of that, he can use jutsu that ems madara dares not(tenga shinsei), has chakra absorption and wood release. All of which ems didn't have at all.


Im not arguing who would win in a fight or whoos Jutsu repitoire is better, im saying EMS Madara has better PHYSICALS than Edo does.

In a head to head fight, even assuming Edo Madara didnt use his mokuton or rinnegan AT ALL and could only use Sharingan abilities, hed beat EMS Madara solely due to the fact that EMS Madara doesnt have a sealing Jutsu...Edo would just keep regenerating and outlast EMS...

But that doesnt change the fact that EMS Madara is faster, has better strength, reactions, hits harder etc

Thats my argument

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Great One (Feb 18, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Read the manga
> 
> No he isnt
> 
> ...


Use your brain cells(lack off) here moron.

"Hurr Durr iso with PS".

Kurama wearing full body Susanoo armor.

"Hurr Durr iso w/o PS"

Kurama not wearing full body Susanoo armor.

You can scream all you want, fact is...

There is no panel of EMS Madara using PS, and no mention of Iso requiring PS.

So if Edo tensei brings people weaker then...

Alive Itachi > Edo Itachi.
Pein > Edo Nagato.
Alive Deidara > Edo Deidara(who can just blow himself off again and again) right?

Hashi claiming Edo Madara < EMS Madara is BS(Just like whatever wall of bs you've wrote above) when every other Edo's were stronger then their living self, Without even any enhancement unlike Edo Madara who received massive enhancements.


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## MaruUchiha (Feb 18, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Clearly not your special snowflake one obviously


Go ahead and make a fool of yourself.. Which stats are EMS Madara > Edo Madara?


WorldsStrongest said:


> No no no
> 
> Hashi didnt IMPLY anything
> 
> Hashi BLATANTLY AND OUTRIGHT STATES that PAST madara > Anything Madara had done up to that point as an edo or an RT even


No.. You're misconstruing what Hashirama was saying, actually you're not misconstruing what he was saying you're twisting his words just to wank Madara.. Wanna know how I know that? CUZ YOU JUST FUCKING CONTRADICTED YOURSELF:


WorldsStrongest said:


> SM Madara > RT Madara = EMS Madara > Edo Madara


If Sage Mode Madara > EMS Madara why the fuck would Hashirama ever imply otherwise??


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## Ultrafragor (Feb 18, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> Hand seals are the most inconsistent aspect of a manga full of inconsistencies. I dunno why anyone bothers arguing about them.



I don't think they're inconsistent.

I think the problem is solely in believing hand signs are a requirement rather than just an aide. 

The chants for kido spells in Bleach is similar. You can skip the chant and just say the spell's bame, or you can cast it without saying anything, but unless you're extremely familiar with the spell, you need the chant to create the spell at full power and to control it.


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## ~Kakashi~ (Feb 18, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> I don't think they're inconsistent.
> 
> I think the problem is solely in believing hand signs are a requirement rather than just an aide.
> 
> The chants for kido spells in Bleach is similar. You can skip the chant and just say the spell's bame, or you can cast it without saying anything, but unless you're extremely familiar with the spell, you need the chant to create the spell at full power and to control it.



Kakashi didn't need hand seals the first time he showed off raikiri to Minato, needed them vs Zabuza in part 1 then didn't need them vs Orochimaru in part 1. 

Hand seals were undoubtedly supposed to be an aspect of jutsu that Kishimoto ended up just ignoring when it didn't suit the fight/story.


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## SakuraLover16 (Feb 18, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Theres nothing contradictory about an Edo being weaker than itself when alive
> 
> Thats blatanly how Edo works


Didn't Kabuto say that he made him stronger than when he was alive?


WorldsStrongest said:


> Hashirama blatantly relates RTs performance to something Madara would have been capable of in the past, and he states hes "regaining it" which means he DIDNT PREVIOUSLY HAVE IT which means EDO IS WEAKER.


Unlike Hashirama Madara died of old age. He had been sitting in that cave for decades until Obito came around so it's possible he was out of practice.


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## Kagutsutchi (Feb 18, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Didn't Kabuto say that he made him stronger than when he was alive?
> 
> Unlike Hashirama Madara died of old age. He had been sitting in that cave for decades until Obito came around so it's possible he was out of practice.


EDIT: Purotto no jutsu. Don't think too hard about it.


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## SakuraLover16 (Feb 18, 2019)

Kamalu said:


> EDIT: Purotto no jutsu. Don't think too hard about it.


Thinking takes effort I only have two neurons firing.


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## Ultrafragor (Feb 18, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> Kakashi didn't need hand seals the first time he showed off raikiri to Minato, needed them vs Zabuza in part 1 then didn't need them vs Orochimaru in part 1.
> 
> Hand seals were undoubtedly supposed to be an aspect of jutsu that Kishimoto ended up just ignoring when it didn't suit the fight/story.



......or they're just not a necessary component of a jutsu

They aid in molding chakra. It'd be dumb to completely skip the hand seals. 

Making a hand seal for a jutsu eliminates the normal amount of concentration and attention it'd take to switch from one jutsu to another mid battle. Why wouldn't you use hand seals?


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## ~Kakashi~ (Feb 18, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> ......or they're just not a necessary component of a jutsu
> 
> They aid in molding chakra. It'd be dumb to completely skip the hand seals.
> 
> Making a hand seal for a jutsu eliminates the normal amount of concentration and attention it'd take to switch from one jutsu to another mid battle. Why wouldn't you use hand seals?



I have no idea, ask Kishimoto. I didn't write the manga. But there's a clear inconsistency in the example I just gave. Why would kid Kakashi who had just invented the technique not need the hand seals for it, but adult Kakashi does, but only that once, and then he can just form raikiri in his hand(or hands in the case of protecting Shikamaru and Chouji from Kakuzu) effortlessly afterwards?

If it doesn't serve the story well, they aren't used. It was the first really high end technique we'd seen in the manga to that point(raikiri that is), so Kishimoto has Kakashi do some hand seals to look cool or whatever to perform the technique. But when he's standing in front of Orochimaru who is walking towards him, it's not gonna look very good Kakashi having to pull off hand seals before hand and stare at it in his hand as he seems to be trying to concentrate the chakra in to it like he did vs Zabuza.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 18, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> In shippuden, Sakura creates both chakra scalpel and mystical palm without hand signs when trying to save Naruto after the kyuubi is extracted.
> 
> So there's two more jutsu that break the rule you think exists.



Coolstory:

*Link Removed*

Had your imaginary rule of "experienced shinobi don't need hand seals" been a thing then this wouldn't have been as significant a plot arc above

The same goes for another panel that breaks the rule _you think _exists here :

*Link Removed*

So experienced Shinobi do need hand seals to perform many or _most_ of the jutsu in their arsenal. Orochimaru is stifled without the use of hand seals. So at best we can reconcile the exceptions as something shinobi have specifically honed in a narrower field of expertise. Kakashi still uses signs for his other justus, yet Raikiri, a lighting technique that is his signature dish, is performed without them. The same might apply to sakura and mystic palm having dedicated herself to Medical arts. But does that mean she can use any other technique under the sun without seals? Doubtful. What I don't have to assume, is that Jiriaya has a special affinity to Yomi Numa like the two examples cited. It's more likely to be similar to one of the jutsu Orochimaru lost access to.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Feb 18, 2019)

it would be a waste of time if Kishi were to draw the hand seals of every move every single time that same jutsu is being used.  He shows them 1 or a few more times, and then he probably assumes that the readers realize that the jutsu require hand-seals and those are "assumed" to have been made. Rather than waste time and space doing them again..


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 18, 2019)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Use your brain cells


Im thinking you could use a couple yourself

I mean Id donate...If you werent a lost fucking cause


Batzzaro29 said:


> "Hurr Durr iso with PS".


So in your mind, a Susanoo that doesnt cover all of Kurama is more liek PS than a Susanoo that does cover all of kurama?

Really?

Thats your argument here?


Batzzaro29 said:


> "Hurr Durr iso w/o PS"


How you can look at that and call it "Not PS" when it has teh exact same weapons, teh exact same helemt, teh exact same armor, and teh exact same size is legitmately asinine


Batzzaro29 said:


> You can scream all you want, fact is...


Og no you used teh "fact" word...How scary

No asshat, whats FACT is that madara blatantly states that his own Perfect Susanoo has a fucking HISTORY.

Hes HAD IT and USED IT before. Iso aside, YOU HAVE NO ARGUMENT

That ALONE is enough to put your dumbass headcanon on its ass

Literally go home

Stop embarrassing yourself


Batzzaro29 said:


> There is no panel of EMS Madara using PS


Minus Iso

Which is confirmed to be PS in the DBs

Madara also blatantly states hes used Iso before.

Weve also never SEEN hashiramas use his Regen ability...Does this mean he doesnt fucking have it?

Weve also never SEEN Might Dai open the 8th Gate and fight the SOTM...DOes this mean it never happened?

Weve also never SEEN Kaguya fight her sons....Did this also not happen?

Never saw Hanzo defeat teh Sannin...Fake news?

The list goes on and fucking on

Your premise makes ZERO fucking sense


Batzzaro29 said:


> no mention of Iso requiring PS.


Its in the DB

Also look at it

Shouldnt need confirmation for something so blatantly fucking obvious

Its a Biju level Susano construct...What the fuck else has power matching that description?




Batzzaro29 said:


> f Edo tensei brings people weaker then.


It does


Batzzaro29 said:


> Alive Itachi > Edo Itachi.


This is true

Edo Itachi is not as fast or as reactive or as physically strong as Alive Itachi in his Prime would be


Batzzaro29 said:


> Pein > Edo Nagato.


Thi sis stupid

Because Pain isnt fucking nagato...pain is far weaker than Nagato

The CORRECT chain would be...

Living Nagato > Edo Nagato > Pain


Batzzaro29 said:


> Alive Deidara > Edo Deidara(who can just blow himself off again and again) right?


Thats abusing Edos advantages

Not actually being fucking more powerful

Jesus its like people dont understand what Im saying at all

Yes...Edo Deidara would beat Living Deidar ain a fight...But, contrary to waht your tiny mongoloid brain thinks, that DOES NOT make Edo Deidara stronger than living.

Fucking EDO PART 1 SAKURA would beat BSM Naruto in a fight...For NO OTHER REASON than shes immortal and he isnt and HE CANT SEAL HER...

Does that make PART 1 SAKURA STRONGER THAN BSM NARUTO? YES OR NO?


Batzzaro29 said:


> Hashi claiming Edo Madara < EMS Madara is BS(Just like whatever wall of bs you've wrote above)


So youre telling me you didnt even read my post

moron

Why do I bother with taking known garbage truck level trolls off of ignore 


Batzzaro29 said:


> every other Edo's were stronger then their living self





Batzzaro29 said:


> Without even any enhancement unlike Edo Madara who received massive enhancements.


Enhancement or not he was inferior to his EMS self physically


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## Trojan (Feb 18, 2019)

Wasn't WS's view on how EMS Asspulldara > Edo Asspulldara is based on ignoring ET's benefits?  

like he thinks ET's regenerating ability/immortality must be ignored for EMS Asspulldara's sake because otherwise
if EMS Asspulldara cannot kill and/or seal Edo Asspulldara it's not "fair"?


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## Trojan (Feb 18, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Enhancement or not he was inferior to his EMS self physically


where was this shown or even implied? 

what is his EMS self-physical feat?


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 18, 2019)

Hussain said:


> where was this shown or even implied?


Aside from it being a standard fucking rule of ET?

By Hashirama

Due straight up states that current RT Madaras performance is APPROACHING what EMS Madara could do in THE PAST

There is literally nothing else he could mean but EMS Madara


Hussain said:


> what is his EMS self-physical feat?


EMS Madara do every one of Edo Madara or RT Madaras Pre SM feats at absolute bare minimum 

Thats how scaling works


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## Trojan (Feb 18, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Aside from it being a standard fucking rule of ET?


Where was it stated that this is a rule of being an ET? 
Can't remember any statement like that tbh. Please, do post the chapter... 

Note: I am talking about Kabuto's ET specifically. And even tho Oro's ET is weaker than normal, I don't think
it was specifically stated that they are "physically" weaker (as in that aspect) either..  



WorldsStrongest said:


> There is literally nothing else he could mean but EMS Madara


Did ET Asspulldara use wood release against Hashirama? No? 
Then how would Hashirama know about the modifications that Asspulldara got?

Hashirama also believed that Asspulldara got killed after their battle at VOTE. Does not mean he was right... 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats how scaling works


So, EMS Asspulldara does not have physical strength feats of his own. 

you gave him ET/RT Asspulldara (who is powered up by Hashi's cells and WE KNOW FOR A FACT) that it makes the body strongest (see what how Zetsu's body looked before and after Kabuto's modifications) and from there, you scaled EMS Asspulldara's physical stats up?


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## Ultrafragor (Feb 18, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Coolstory:
> 
> *Link Removed*
> 
> ...



Jiraiya isn't the point.

1. Your initial argument was stupid and you simply tried to bully your debating partner into believing it.

2. As you've admitted, hand signs aren't an actual requirement for jutsu. They just aid in quickly preparing chakra mid-battle.




Sakura apparently being more adept with chakra scalpel or mystical palm than Tsunade destroys any attempted argument that people using hand signs means they can't do a jutsu without the hand signs. That's essentially arguing teen Sakura's skills and familiarity with medical ninjutsu exceed a woman who has been practicing it for 40+ years.


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## The Great One (Feb 18, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Im thinking you could use a couple yourself
> 
> I mean Id donate...If you werent a lost fucking cause
> 
> ...


No, a Susanoo that has PS armour is more of a PS then a Susanoo which does not.

Then show a panel of EMS Madara using PS you dumb fuck.

Because that shit does not have same armour as PS.

PS.


Iso with PS.

(covered with PS armour)

Iso without PS.

(not covered with PS armour)

And no that is not PS due of size because Madara PS is even bigger. 

Wanna talk about weapons.

Sword EMS Sasuke uses while using ISO.


Sword Sasuke's PS uses.


No they do not use same weapons, same with Madara both of his Iso and PS uses different weapons. 

I can call that and say that not PS cause it does not even look like PS.

Madara also says "It bring memories" after using meteor, when he does not had it when he was living.

Since when DBs are legit?

- We've seen People with Hashirama cell using regen.
- May be he did it, may be he did not... Unimportant.
- No, it was juubi which fought Rikudou and bro.

My premises makes absolutely fucking sense.

EMS Sasuke was able to make Iso w/o having PS(before you say some bs about Sasuke having PS before i've already posted panels of his Iso and PS having deferent swords).

So there is no reason EMS Madara had it before creating ISO(when we does not have a panel of him using it).

Susanoo even w/o PS is biju level... So it does not need PS to match biju level.


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## Ultrafragor (Feb 18, 2019)

supposed to be a polite thread for complimenting other posters 

people coming in here like Ash Ketchum


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## Ishmael (Feb 18, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> supposed to be a polite thread for complimenting other posters
> 
> people coming in here like Ash Ketchum



Sad to be honest, the first few actyally paid respect to posters arguments and then bs happened. Sad this place cant have just a bit of positivity.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 19, 2019)

...Can't believe someone is seriously in here arguing that EMS Madara doesn't have CBS/PS and people are wasting their time arguing with them.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kisame (Feb 19, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> ...Can't believe someone is seriously in here arguing that EMS Madara doesn't have CBS/PS and people are wasting their time arguing with them.


A few days ago @Hussain had people trying to post scans to prove Itachi was sick.


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## The Great One (Feb 19, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> ...Can't believe someone is seriously in here arguing that EMS Madara doesn't have CBS/PS and people are wasting their time arguing with them.


Can't believe people think EMS Madara has PS when there is no panel of him using it(there is no panel of any EMS users creating PS either).

Simply because he covered Kurama with Susanoo... Same shit EMS Sasuke did while not having PS.

When every time PS is used user had either Rinnegan or Rikudou chakra, but not EMS.


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2019)

Shark said:


> A few days ago @Hussain had people trying to post scans to prove Itachi was sick.


And they have yet to do...


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## Kisame (Feb 19, 2019)

@Orochimaruwantsyourbody: any of his long/longer posts. I like his overall view of character's strength; I even used his tier list rankings as a basis for mine.
@FlamingRain: too bad he's not active enough. I feel like the way he posts makes it hard to use bad debating tactics against him and forces you to bring out your best or concede. Whenever I get to quote him on something or see him engage someone else it's always fun.
@Hi no Ishi: His arguments on IA Naruto vs IA Kakashi have thoroughly convinced me that IA Naruto is stronger than and has surpassed IA Kakashi. That was a solid argument imo ashis post covered everything from plot to portrayal to feats to direct comparison against the same opponent and of course statements - very well-rounded argument.
@MSAL: he made an analysis on Itachi's battle against Kakashi in part I [] clearing many misconceptions of Itachi struggling in that fight.
@The Death & The Strawberry: I thought Nagato sensed Koto instead of Amaterasu and he explained how Amaterasu was indeed charged up and sensed and how the Koto crow prevented Itachi from employing it.
@Bonly managed to convince me that BoS Gaara, desert or not, is weaker than the third Kazekage and that if Gaara being in a desert made a difference then the sand people would have pointed that out since they pretty much only see Gaara in the desert where he resides and operates for most of the time in their eyes - instead we kept being told Sandaime was the strongest Kazekage late into the Sasori fight.

That's what I can remember for now.

Reactions: Like 4


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## MSAL (Feb 19, 2019)

Shark said:


> A few days ago @Hussain had people trying to post scans to prove Itachi was sick.



Yes, people actually fell for it too..

Its like me asking Hussain of scans to prove Minato had sex with Kushina and Naruto is Minatos son...Even though weve been told they are family and share same name...

Funny isnt it


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## MSAL (Feb 19, 2019)

Shark said:


> @Orochimaruwantsyourbody: any of his long/longer posts. I like his overall view of character's strength; I even used his tier list rankings as a basis for mine.
> @FlamingRain: too bad he's not active enough. I feel like the way he posts makes it hard to use bad debating tactics against him and forces you to bring out your best or concede. Whenever I get to quote him on something or see him engage someone else it's always fun.
> @Hi no Ishi: His arguments on IA Naruto vs IA Kakashi have thoroughly convinced me that IA Naruto is stronger than and has surpassed IA Kakashi. That was a solid argument imo ashis post covered everything from plot to portrayal to feats to direct comparison against the same opponent and of course statements - very well-rounded argument.
> @MSAL: he made an analysis on Itachi's battle against Kakashi in part I [] clearing many misconceptions of Itachi struggling in that fight.
> ...



Thank you kindly for mention <3

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2019)

MSAL said:


> Yes, people actually fell for it too..
> 
> Its like me asking Hussain of scans to prove Minato had sex with Kushina and Naruto is Minatos son...Even though weve been told they are family and share same name...
> 
> Funny isnt it


Don't see how is that the same thing... 
but whatever suits you..


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2019)

I would like to add that pre-retcon Zetsu did not know what Susanoo is, nor did he know its side effects either. 


Zetsu: What is that?


*Spoiler*: _2_ 









Zetsu again: huh...what is that?


thank you... 



If I must say, I am even impressed by my theory.


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## Ultrafragor (Feb 19, 2019)

Hussain said:


> I would like to add that pre-retcon Zetsu did not know what Susanoo is, nor did he know its side effects either.
> 
> 
> Zetsu: What is that?
> ...



That's White Zetsu talking.

Black Zetsu is the one that knew everything. White Zetsu was the half that kept asking questions the whole time.


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2019)

Ultrafragor said:


> That's White Zetsu talking.
> 
> Black Zetsu is the one that knew everything. White Zetsu was the half that kept asking questions the whole time.


No, it's not. the speech "area" is clearly on the Black Zetsu's side.
if the first page was not obvious, then the second one makes no room for speculation...


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2019)

here is the anime voices as well 

at 4m...


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## narut0ninjafan (Feb 19, 2019)

In fairness  by the way he says "that jutsu he calls Susanoo sure seems hard on the body", he wouldn't talk that way about a jutsu he knew a lot about

Could just be some of the meaning being lost in translation, but I think it's more likely that was just a retcon from Kishi when he pulled the whole Kaguya shit out of his ass

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Feb 19, 2019)

narut0ninjafan said:


> In fairness  by the way he says "that jutsu he calls Susanoo sure seems hard on the body", he wouldn't talk that way about a jutsu he knew a lot about
> 
> Could just be some of the meaning being lost in translation, but I think it's more likely that was just a retcon from Kishi when he pulled the whole Kaguya shit out of his ass



Both Zetsus got retconned. I still laugh when people bring the whole "Oro is powered up by Hashi's cells" 
even though WZ got retconned to be some people from Kaguya's time...


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## Braiyan (Feb 19, 2019)

Shark said:


> snip



Nice to finally see some positivity in this thread. So I might as well add a few of my own.

@Shark once gave a really compelling argument for how Samehada doesn't really boost Kisame when it shares its absorbed chakra with him. Which means Kisame should be capable of most feats he showed after absorbing Bee's chakra by himself, citing discrepancies like the lack of a chakra cloak and what he was capable of at 30%.

@Ultrafragor does a really good job showing how good Hiashi's feats are (and by extension the Byakugan), despite how underutilised he was in the manga. That one panel of him knocking back the Juubi's palm by himself gets misinterpreted so often (he did it with a Kyuubi boost even though he didn't, that was boosted Hinata even though it wasn't, etc) even though it's a solid feat for him. They also gave me some insight on how the Byakugan should logically help boost reactions similar to how Sharingan would.

@LostSelf helps point out how flawed an argument it is that Kakashi would not be willing to use Kamui offensively. Same with Gai and how much his feats get downplayed.


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## Sufex (Jul 10, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Wasn’t this forum but I read someones write up on why Tobirama > Minato;
> I also watched a video from Swagkage/SethTheProgrammer on Youtube that talked about KCM Minato strength ; and while i think their rankings of characters are usually wrong; they made a good point that a lot of people don’t account for how big of an increase KCM should give Minato. And I realized I was doing that too.
> 
> So then I took another look at the war an was like Tobirama is keeping up with or outperforming KCM Minato consistently so why do people think this guy is weaker then Base Minato. Then I looked at the original raws; and decided that guy whose post I read was right and Tobirama is a Tier above Base Minute.


So this is the origin


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## Soul (Jul 10, 2019)

Suu talking about Tsunade was like hearing Sean McVay talking about football. And boy did I dislike Tsunade back then.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jul 10, 2019)

Soul said:


> Suu talking about Tsunade was like hearing Sean McVay talking about football. And boy did I dislike Tsunade back then.


Is that good lol. I didn't get the reference.


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## ~Kakashi~ (Jul 10, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Is that good lol. I didn't get the reference.



Sean McVay is one of the best head coaches in football and considered probably the brightest young mind among coaches, so yes, it would be a good thing.


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## Kisame (Jul 10, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Is that good lol. I didn't get the reference.


You would have been proud of Suu.


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## Santoryu (Jul 10, 2019)

Shark said:


> You would have been proud of Suu.



Not necessarily 


In the end, Tsunade concluded that MS Kakashi>>>>Tsunade conclusively 

@SakuraLover16 
is too lewd to reach reality


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## SakuraLover16 (Jul 10, 2019)

Shark said:


> You would have been proud of Suu.


Are there any previous threads that they have done?


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## SakuraLover16 (Jul 10, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Not necessarily
> 
> 
> In the end, Tsunade concluded that MS Kakashi>>>>Tsunade conclusively
> ...


I am the lewdest there are none who surpass me.


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## Kisame (Jul 10, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Are there any previous threads that they have done?


Yeah but they're too old for the search function to find...


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## SakuraLover16 (Jul 10, 2019)

Shark said:


> Yeah but they're too old for the search function to find...


RIP lol


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