# Zack vs Cloud vs Vincent vs Genesis vs Sephiroth vs Weiss



## Shooting burst stream (Feb 10, 2012)

All out free for all, fight takes place in Midgar, all bloodlusted. Everyone is at their strongest (meaning Chaos Vincent, ACC Seph ect.). No materia for anybody. Fight starts on the roof of SHINRA HQ. Who wins?


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## familyparka (Feb 10, 2012)

Chaos Vincent should own this.


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## ~Avant~ (Feb 10, 2012)

Chaos Vincent for the win.


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## ZERO PHOENIX (Feb 10, 2012)

Wait a minute. Doesn't Vincent need materia to control Chaos? Apart from referencing that (everywhere in Dirge of Cerberus) that's why Shelke had to bust her ass to help Vincent before he took on Weiss.

[YOUTUBE]IqlLcujgRdk[/YOUTUBE]

*If the participants can't use materia then Vincent can't turn into Chaos.* My god why do you guys make these threads without any knowledge of the combatants? So far, only Cloud, Sephiroth, and Weiss have shown themselves to be insanely competent fighters without even using materia. In Cloud's case, he took on Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo, while he was sick, without the aid of materia, and held his own. 

Vincent goes down first. Without the Chaos materia he can't hope to last long. Probably done in by Weiss. A lot of people in this thing hate Sephiroth. Genesis, Zack, and Cloud will likely gang up on him whether they need to or not. I see Genesis or Zack getting killed in this exchange but Sephiroth is likely to go down too. Either way, this battle comes down between Cloud and Weiss. Cloud takes it because even Sephiroth couldn't follow Omnislash v.5 and I doubt Weiss would do any better.

This is how ZERO PHOENIX debates. With logic. But I guess that's the first time anyone has done that here right?


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## Shooting burst stream (Feb 10, 2012)

ZERO PHOENIX said:


> Wait a minute. Doesn't Vincent need materia to control Chaos? Apart from referencing that (everywhere in Dirge of Cerberus) that's why Shelke had to bust her ass to help Vincent before he took on Weiss.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]IqlLcujgRdk[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> ...



Forgot about Vincent needing the materia to control Chaos. Very well he gets that, by the way don't sell  Weiss short, he has better on screen feats than either Cloud or Sephiroth from what I remember.


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## ~Avant~ (Feb 10, 2012)

ZERO PHOENIX said:


> This is how ZERO PHOENIX debates. With logic. But I guess that's the first time anyone has done that here right?



Whoa, slow your roll their young pup.


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## Pariston (Feb 10, 2012)

Vincent
Seph
Weiss


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## ZERO PHOENIX (Feb 10, 2012)

Shooting burst stream said:


> Forgot about Vincent needing the materia to control Chaos. Very well he gets that, by the way don't sell  Weiss short, he has better on screen feats than either Cloud or Sephiroth from what I remember.



If Vincent gets to access his Chaos materia then everyone else should be able to access their material as well yes?  Far be it from me to advocate consistency but even as Chaos, Vincent won't win this thing. That's my man and everything but we all know that DoC was one big hype-show for Vincent. His feats don't stand up to the others. While he's quite competent at H2H I don't think he's "more" competent than anyone else here.

His attacks aren't exactly versatile either. Vincent's entire offense is shooting and even though that is one big-ass gun that can shoot big-ass beams, we've seen Weiss deal with that easily. I'm fairly certain a beam won't do shit to Sephiroth, even one from Chaos and Cloud could probably just dodge it.

I'm not selling Weiss short. I'm well aware of his screen feats. Note that in my argument I stated (quite clearly) that Weiss would be the last to go. This is going to come down between Cloud and Weiss. Not just because at least three of these guys are going to be gunning for Sephiroth from the start, but because I've seen nothing from anyone apart from Cloud and Sephiroth that makes me think anyone in this match can take Weiss, other than the two of them.

1) Sephiroth gets jumped by Genesis, Zack, and Cloud, or Cloud solos Sephiroth. Either way, Sephiroth is the first or second to go down, simply based on the fact that apart from being a major threat, most of the people here hate him anyway.

2) Vincent gets killed by Weiss.

3) Zack and Genesis either kill each other or one dies and the other is beaten to the point where they won't last another round.

4) I'm actually quite sure that Zack and Genesis kill each other but more than likely Zack was killed by Genesis who is just barely hanging on. Cloud or Weiss finish off Genesis. It's certainly possible that Weiss would kill his own brother because his ass can't be trusted. Neither of them really so it wouldn't surprise me if Weiss kills Genesis before Cloud gets a chance to.

5) Cloud takes out Weiss but Weiss is going to beat that ass before he goes down. Cloud wins but barely.


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## Shooting burst stream (Feb 10, 2012)

ZERO PHOENIX said:


> If Vincent gets to access his Chaos materia then everyone else should be able to access their material as well yes?  Far be it from me to advocate consistency but even as Chaos, Vincent won't win this thing. That's my man and everything but we all know that DoC was one big hype-show for Vincent. His feats don't stand up to the others. While he's quite competent at H2H I don't think he's "more" competent than anyone else here.
> 
> His attacks aren't exactly versatile either. Vincent's entire offense is shooting and even though that is one big-ass gun that can shoot big-ass beams, we've seen Weiss deal with that easily. I'm fairly certain a beam won't do shit to Sephiroth, even one from Chaos and Cloud could probably just dodge it.
> 
> ...



Hype wasn't the only thing Chaos Vincent had going for him in Dirge of Cerberus. He also got some really impressive feats like for instance being faster than Weiss who can dodge a point blank (the gun was practically touching him) shot from behind. He is also one of only three people here who can fly (other two being Sephiroth and Genesis). He is also the only combatant here that needs a materia to fight at his best which is why he's the only one getting one

1) Cloud isn't soloing Sephiroth (Barring a lucky Omnislash ver.5 hit), he only beat him in ACC because Sephiroth was basically playing with him, this is a blood lusted scenario so that wont be the case here. Keep in mind also Zack and Genesis aren't exactly the best of friends, in fact Zack was more friendly with Sephiroth than Genesis so I see Genesis and Zack fighting first. Cloud might end up fighting Weiss because he's the only villain that can't fly which would leave Chaos vs Sephiroth.

2) Didn't Chaos Vincent kill Weiss in canon or was Weiss nerfed somehow?

3) Zack would likely beat Genesis as he did in Crisis Core but I agree he wouldn't get off without injury.


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## ZERO PHOENIX (Feb 10, 2012)

Shooting burst stream said:


> He also got some really impressive feats like for instance being faster than Weiss who can dodge a point blank (the gun was practically touching him) shot from behind.




He's not faster than Weiss. Weiss opened that battle by taking Vincent lightly which was the only reason he was surprised by Vincent's speed. They were about even as was seen when they had that exchange in which they were just flashes of light. It's still debatable that Weiss was toying with Vincent given that he laughed at him. Or the argument could be made that Weiss laughed because he finally found a worthy opponent. In either case there is no way Vincent is faster than Weiss. 





Shooting burst stream said:


> He is also one of only three people here who can fly (other two being Sephiroth and Genesis).



Cloud can fly at this point as was proven in AC. It stands to reason that anyone with Jenova cells has that potential. Remember, Sephiroth's flight is not caused by his wing but his levitation, that power comes from Jenova. Cloud, having attained some degree of control over his own Jenova cells can fly in the same manner. You bring up an interesting point though as anyone who can fly has a major advantage in this contest. That would mean that Zack goes down first.





Shooting burst stream said:


> 1) Cloud isn't soloing Sephiroth (Barring a lucky Omnislash ver.5 hit), he only beat him in ACC because Sephiroth was basically playing with him, this is a blood lusted scenario so that wont be the case here. Keep in mind also Zack and Genesis aren't exactly the best of friends, in fact Zack was more friendly with Sephiroth than Genesis so I see Genesis and Zack fighting first. Cloud might end up fighting Weiss because he's the only villain that can't fly which would leave Chaos vs Sephiroth.



You're right. Cloud isn't soloing Sephiroth but I'm pretty sure Sephiroth is going down hard. Almost everyone here (if not everyone here) is going to be gunning for him. I actually see Genesis taking Zack, with ease. You'll have to forgive me as I run into a lot (A LOT) of Zack fans who thinks he's the end all beat all FF hero and I get so tired of getting into arguments with them I just didn't want to go there. 




Shooting burst stream said:


> 2) Didn't Chaos Vincent kill Weiss in canon or was Weiss nerfed somehow?



Pft.  They nerfed the *HELL* out of Weiss. He was actually much harder to beat in the first battle than he was when he fused with Omega. He was slower too and his attacks were easier to dodge. That's why I said DoC was a hype game for Vincent. A normal Weiss, i.e., a Weiss with just his swords could probably solo Zack and Chaos-Vincent.




Shooting burst stream said:


> 3) Zack would likely beat Genesis as he did in Crisis Core but I agree he wouldn't get off without injury.



 As DoC was for Vincent, CC was for Zack. Don't forget that in this contest Zack doesn't have access to materia. Genesis would pwn.


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## King Hopper (Feb 10, 2012)

Zacks left nut solos


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## Illairen (Feb 10, 2012)

ZERO PHOENIX said:


> If Vincent gets to access his Chaos materia then everyone else should be able to access their material as well yes?  Far be it from me to advocate consistency but even as Chaos, Vincent won't win this thing. That's my man and everything but we all know that DoC was one big hype-show for Vincent. His feats don't stand up to the others. While he's quite competent at H2H I don't think he's "more" competent than anyone else here.
> 
> His attacks aren't exactly versatile either. Vincent's entire offense is shooting and even though that is one big-ass gun that can shoot big-ass beams, we've seen Weiss deal with that easily. I'm fairly certain a beam won't do shit to Sephiroth, even one from Chaos and Cloud could probably just dodge it.
> 
> ...



This. Very logical reasoning, I agree completely.


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## King Hopper (Feb 10, 2012)

Zack tells them all to go home and be family men

might be too late for some of them

but hey

its the thought that counts


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## The Phantom Stranger (Feb 11, 2012)

Did I just read in somewhere in here that Cloud can fly?
I swear, next week he's gonna be two-finger citybusting ala Nappa.


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## openrulez (Feb 12, 2012)

The Phantom Stranger said:


> Did I just read in somewhere in here that Cloud can fly?
> I swear, next week he's gonna be two-finger citybusting ala Nappa.


Country busting.

Anyways seph takes this


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## Adamant soul (Feb 12, 2012)

openrulez said:


> Country busting.
> 
> Anyways seph takes this



You do realise Weiss alone is more impressive than Seph right.


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## Ulti (Feb 12, 2012)

Cloud did fly in AC though didn't he?


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## Omnirix (Feb 12, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Cloud did fly in AC though didn't he?



No he didn't. He can just jump very high. When he fought Bahumut Sin, he needed each his friends to lift him higher and higher up to the sky. 

He somewhat zips around the air when performing Omnislash v6 but right after that attack he just falls back to the ground.


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## ZERO PHOENIX (Feb 16, 2012)

Heroic Trunks said:


> No he didn't. He can just jump very high. When he fought Bahumut Sin, he needed each his friends to lift him higher and higher up to the sky.
> 
> He somewhat zips around the air when performing Omnislash v6 but right after that attack he just falls back to the ground.



So Cloud was flying around for 10 minutes. Your __________ needs college. Better mods?


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## Adamant soul (Feb 16, 2012)

ZERO PHOENIX said:


> So Cloud was flying around for 10 minutes. Your __________ needs college. Better mods?



No he wasn't Cloud was jumping walls and falling rubble to keep himself in the air against Sephiroth and against Bahamut he needed all of the members of AVALANCHE tossing him to reach Bahamut. The only time Cloud seemed to somewhat fly was during Omnislash Ver.6 which only seems to be possible while using that attack.


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## ZERO PHOENIX (Feb 16, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> No he wasn't Cloud was jumping walls and falling rubble to keep himself in the air against Sephiroth and against Bahamut he needed all of the members of AVALANCHE tossing him to reach Bahamut. The only time Cloud seemed to somewhat fly was during Omnislash Ver.6 which only seems to be possible while using that attack.



So How The Flock of Seagulls was he in mid air before Sephiroth sent him through the building you Darth Atlas Mega Fan?! In the opening seconds of the fight, Cloud and Sephiroth were both clashing swords while levitating above Shinra Inc. Sephiroth knocked Cloud away, Cloud did a flip, hovered, and looked around for Sephiroth before Sephiroth got him from the right and sent him through a building. 


[YOUTUBE]7s1VyV3OP4Q[/YOUTUBE]


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## Adamant soul (Feb 16, 2012)

ZERO PHOENIX said:


> So HTF was he in mid air before Sephiroth sent him through the building you DAMF?! In the opening seconds of the fight, Cloud and Sephiroth were both clashing swords while levitating above Shinra Inc. Sephiroth knocked Cloud away, Cloud did a flip, hovered, and looked around for Sephiroth before Sephiroth got him from the right and sent him through a building.
> 
> 
> [YOUTUBE]7s1VyV3OP4Q[/YOUTUBE]



Explain then why Cloud was shown to be descending after being knocked away by Seph then couldn't do a damn thing to avoid the following blow that sent him through the wall behind them? Then explain why after that Cloud needs to jump off of everything in sight just to keep himself in the air?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 16, 2012)

they just ignore physics sometimes to make it look cooler, Cloud isn't really flying 


IIRC the creator of AC even said as much - fuck physics, lets make it look better


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## ZERO PHOENIX (Feb 16, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> Explain then why Cloud was shown to be descending after being knocked away by Seph then couldn't do a damn thing to avoid the following blow that sent him through the wall behind them? Then explain why after that Cloud needs to jump off of everything in sight just to keep himself in the air? Yeah Try watching that fight a lot more closely you DAMF.



Cloud couldn't do anything you Samus Aran Mega Fan because he was disoriented after Sephiroth deflected his attack. He wasn't descended because he couldn't fly, he was descending because he was still trying to correct himself. If Cloud can't fly, then your argument would have to make the case that he was falling. If he was falling in that initial exchange, he wouldn't have had time to float there and try and see which angle Sephiroth was coming from.


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## Adamant soul (Feb 16, 2012)

ZERO PHOENIX said:


> Cloud couldn't do anything you Samus Aran Mega Fan because he was disoriented after Sephiroth deflected his attack. He wasn't descended because he couldn't fly, he was descending because he was still trying to correct himself. If Cloud can't fly, then your argument would have to make the case that he was falling. If he was falling in that initial exchange, he wouldn't have had time to float there and try and see which angle Sephiroth was coming from.



Okay first of all I never have nor do I ever intend on playing a metroid game in my life so I'm not even a fan of Samus Aran much less a mega fan. This is fiction dude,real world physics don't work the whole "he wouldn't have time to notice something while falling" only works for normal humans, Cloud's reactions (and movement) speeds are far beyond what a normal human would be capable of which is why he could notice Sephiroth coming mid-fall and why Sephiroth could intercept Cloud while he was falling. Bullets for example which move far faster than anything a human could see would appear to move much slower to Cloud as would the speed at which he was falling. Also you have yet to answer my question about Cloud needing to jump off everything in sight to keep himself in the air after that.


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## SHM (Feb 16, 2012)

Shooting burst stream said:


> Very well he gets that, by the way don't sell  Weiss short, he has better on screen feats than either Cloud or Sephiroth from what I remember.





Adamant soul said:


> You do realise Weiss alone is more impressive than Seph right.



In the physical and speed department? Yeah, Weiss is far better than Jenova/Sephiroth.
But in versatility, Jen/Seph wins easily. Teleportation, telekinesis, illusions, intangibility, etc. All showed in _cutscenes_ of the original game.


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## Adamant soul (Feb 16, 2012)

SHM said:


> In the physical and speed department? Yeah, Weiss is far better than Jenova/Sephiroth.
> But in versatility, Jen/Seph wins easily. Teleportation, telekinesis, illusions, intangibility, etc. All showed in _cutscenes_ of the original game.



Granted his teleportation could prove a nuisance, his TK however wasn't that impressive from what I remember, he couldn't even hold AVALANCHE with it and they are all just normal humans with the exception of Cloud and Vincent, much weaker incarnations of them mind you than the ones present here. I'm a bit iffy on the intangibility, was he ever actually shown going through a physical object with it and if so could you show me the scene. Can't remember how good of an illusion he could  make but I'm pretty sure he was still visible and audible during that scene (could easily be wrong though) so I'm not sure how useful it would be here.


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## SHM (Feb 16, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> Granted his teleportation could prove a nuisance, his TK however wasn't that impressive from what I remember, he couldn't even hold AVALANCHE with it and they are all just normal humans with the exception of Cloud and Vincent, much weaker incarnations of them mind you than the ones present here. I'm a bit iffy on the intangibility, was he ever actually shown going through a physical object with it and if so could you show me the scene. Can't remember how good of an illusion he could make but I'm pretty sure he was still visible and audible during that scene (could easily be wrong though) so I'm not sure how useful it would be here.



Intangibility:

9:59

[YOUTUBE]5zY3Yvxp7ig[/YOUTUBE]

And remember that Sephiroth throws Jenova against you soon after this scene, so this couldn't be an illusion of him.

Illusions:

0:23

[YOUTUBE]6oITvhv9XKE[/YOUTUBE]

Sephiroth create an illusion of _an entire village_.


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## DarkSlayerZero (Feb 16, 2012)

SHM said:


> Intangibility:
> 
> 9:59
> 
> ...



The illusion's flame felt like the real thing.


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## DarkLord Omega (Feb 16, 2012)

Weiss was not nerfed, because the first battle with him is a PIS battle. The second is where he embraced Chaos's powers thus having him be on equal grounds.


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## Super DSX (Feb 17, 2012)

SHM said:


> In the physical and speed department? Yeah, Weiss is far better than Jenova/Sephiroth.
> But in versatility, Jen/Seph wins easily. Teleportation, telekinesis, illusions, intangibility, etc. All showed in _cutscenes_ of the original game.



Weiss isn't far better than Jenova, Sephiroth, or Cloud for that matter. It is stated by the developers that there is no one above Sephiroth in FF7. They also stated that Before Crisis Sephiroth is the strongest person in the world at the time, which means he is stronger than Weiss even as a human. While using Jenova's body as an avatar, Sephiroth has the strength to impale a Midgar Zolom with a tree. AC/ACC Cloud is also stronger than Weiss because he defeated Kadaj easily once he was cured of Geostigma. Kadaj is stated to be as strong as FF7 Sephiroth. Link removed

The things shown in Dirge of Cerberus look that way because of a difference animation style/direction. The AC/ACC fights are also said to be slowed down and there are moments of slow motion so we can see what exactly is going on. The original Omnislash is 15 slashes in the blink an eye, yet ACC Sephiroth can easily block it. Omnislash Version 5/6 is described as being instantaneous. I would like to point out that Sephiroth and Cloud are the only people who have been shown burning things with the force of their strikes. This is a speed and power feat I feel is quite overlooked. Furthermore, Vincent believes only Cloud has the power to beat Sephiroth, even though he is free to use Chaos at the time. It's stated in DoC that he transformed into Chaos against Hojo in FF7, so he probably used it against Sephiroth, too.


Wtf Shrinking
"When everyone wants to support Cloud, Vincent commands them to put their trust in Cloud's hands. Not wanting to interfere, he believes that only Cloud has the power to destroy the curse from the past."

Vincent doesn't want to fight Sephiroth again, yet says he can take care of Omega Weiss.


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## DarkLord Omega (Feb 17, 2012)

Cause Cloud has something with Sephiroth while Vincent has with Weiss


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## The Phantom Stranger (Feb 17, 2012)

Super DSX said:


> Link removed
> "When everyone wants to support Cloud, Vincent commands them to put their trust in Cloud's hands. Not wanting to interfere, he believes that only Cloud has the power to destroy the curse from the past."
> 
> Vincent doesn't want to fight Sephiroth again, yet says he can take care of Omega Weiss.



And what exactly is that supposed to prove/mean? The devs wanting to have a rehash of the original games final battle doesn't mean that Vincent wasn't strong enough to defeat Sephiroth, that entire bit was screaming "Plot!" Vincent didn't interfere because it was Cloud's personal fight, which is actually what he says in that scene. And besides that we can put Vincent above Sephiroth based simply feats and abilities he demonstrated in DoC, and the fact that they are greater than anything Sephiroth ever showed or did.


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## Super DSX (Feb 17, 2012)

The Phantom Stranger said:


> And what exactly is that supposed to prove/mean? The devs wanting to have a rehash of the original games final battle doesn't mean that Vincent wasn't strong enough to defeat Sephiroth, that entire bit was screaming "Plot!" Vincent didn't interfere because it was Cloud's personal fight, which is actually what he says in that scene. And besides that we can put Vincent above Sephiroth based simply feats and abilities he demonstrated in DoC, and the fact that they are greater than anything Sephiroth ever showed or did.



The quote says Vincent doesn't want to interfere because only Cloud is strong enough to beat Sephiroth. It specifically says the words "Cloud" and "power" so your point is moot. It's his fight because the rest of them aren't strong enough. Tifa even brings up the fact that Cloud is the only one who has found the strength they all had in the last battle. Sephiroth himself says the fate of the world is up to Cloud. 

Putting Vincent above Sephiroth or Cloud is not logical. As I said in my previous post, AC/ACC uses a different animation style than DoC.

"Well, when you compare Reno and Rude's speed to Cloud's group, it seems they're moving at the speed of the average human but, we actually made them a bit faster. If we dropped the concept of "normal" speed in the scenes then things would get very hectic..."
- Link removed

Vincent or Weiss's attacks don't burn things or produce light energy, which means their attack strength and speed is inferior to Cloud or Sephiroth. It is a measure of power given only to anyone in AC.
In FF7 Red 13 says he doesn't think the party is strong enough without Cloud.


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